# Looking for other goldens with elbow dysplasia from Jennifer Masterson(Petaluma, CA)



## sonaliagrawal (Jun 18, 2008)

My lovely 2.5 yr old puppy Simba came from Jennifer Masterson (Masters Goldens based out of Petaluma, CA) in 2008. He is Anthony and Delia's offspring from the litter of May 2008.

I had done all my research about Jennifer Masterson before proceding with her as the chosen breeder for my future pup. She is very reputable in this area, and is considered one of the best here in NorCal.

My pup Simba was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia this spring/early summer after he started limping severely. Turns out he has elbow dysplasia - in both his elbows. We had contacted Jennifer Masterson then, and it took many voice-mails to her before she got back to us. We were very disappointed with how she handled the situation. She was not responsive, she took no responsibility other than being apologetic about the situation, and never offered a refund (not even partial!). She also denied knowing about any other pup of hers having had elbow dysplasia issues.

I was totally okay with all of this thinking that ours is a unique case with Simba... until today. I met another gentleman today whose puppy came from Jennifer Masterson as well 3 years ago, and was also diagnosed with elbow dysplasia on both elbows and JM responded similarly in his case too (his was 3 years ago). 

When I asked her if she was aware of any other puppies of hers from her breeding history who have had elbow dysplasia, why would have she denied that anybody ever did. Turns out this was a false statement based on what I just learnt today.

Do you have a dog from Jennifer Masterson? Do you know anybody who does? Please help me learn how other dogs of hers are doing, and help me raise awareness about issues with Delia and Antony's litters.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

As always, what does the contract/purchase agreement say?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Here is the website, Masters Golden Retrievers

It looks like everything is in order and that Master's is a reputable breeder....

Anthony has all 4 clearances, with normal elbows: Pedigree: CH Nautilus Which Way Did He Go He's a Joe Millionaire kid.

Delia also has all 4 clearances, including normal elbows: Pedigree: Am CH Futura Masters Eightbyten Glossy She's a Faera Starlight kid (love him!).

Sometimes clearances just aren't enough, sometimes it is in the line somewhere, or it could be from stress induced on the joints as a growing puppy and too much activity. There are a few members here that have had to deal with ED or HD despite their dogs coming from OFA cleared by several generations. 

Like Swampcollie, is there any mention of a guarantee or warranty against such diseases? If there is no mention, while it would be nice for the breeder to refund the purchase price towards veterinary bills, they have no obligation to do so. 

I'm so sorry that you and your pup are going through this. You can get through it. Stick around the forum and I am sure that you will find the support and resources that you need to make informed decisions in your dog's care and treatment.


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## sonaliagrawal (Jun 18, 2008)

The contract says that she cannot be held responsible for any issues like dysplasia. 

Having said that, reputable breeders are there to see the pup through its lifetime and be there for advice/support. 

Simba's mom(Delia) and dad(Anthony) do have elbow clearance 6 out of his 8 great-grand-parents do not have elbow clearance. Is that something to be bothered about?

Simba is all recovered now from his surgery back in late April, and he seems to be back to his normal pre-surgery life.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

sonaliagrawal said:


> Simba's mom(Delia) and dad(Anthony) do have elbow clearance 6 out of his 8 great-grand-parents do not have elbow clearance. Is that something to be bothered about?


The requirement for Elbow Clearances is relatively new when compared to the other required clearances. Dogs that got their clearances done more than ten years ago often don't have elbow clearances because there wasn't a requirement to do so (it was voluntary). 

Delia is not a young dog, so her parents and grandparents probably don't have elbow clearances.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I think the earliest I remember is around 1998. Scout's father, Dickens, was taken in for elbows in 1998, and he was a little over 8 years old at the time. So, when Dickens' hips were done in 1992, elbows would not have been a requirement. And even then, Carlin may have been a little ahead of the curve, as elbows were (and to a lesser extent, still are) controversial for quite some time. Elbow dysplasia is even more involved than hip dysplasia and admittedly our current method of diagnosing it is not perfect. But, it is all we have for now.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I know that when I was doing clearances on Maxi, there was no requirement for Elbows (she's 11 1/2). When I did clearances on Kate, elbows were a requirement (she's 9). So, you're not going to see a lot of elbow clearences beyond one or two generations back in a pedigree.


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## Yeagerbum (Jul 24, 2010)

hi sonaliagrawal, I tried to send you a pm but my post count isn't up to 15 yet 
I'm sorry to hear Simba had to go through this and I hope he feels better now. 

I'm currently looking for a golden puppy in NorCal and I'm interested in an upcoming litter from Masters Goldens, but now I'm alarmed after seeing your post. Could you send me either a PM or e-mail(can be found on my contact page) and tell me more about your experience with her? thank you so much !


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

Cody is from Jennifer Masterson and so far he is in perfect health. He was born in March 2009, parents are Daytona and Henley. I am sorry about the problems you have had with Simba, hopefully he makes a full recovery.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Personally, I find posts like this so unfair to the breeder. Why anyone would want to become a breeder when someone can just put your name out there and harm your hard earned reputation is beyond me. This is a personal matter. I believe it is far more likely that a pup could be injured with excessive exercise, sliding on floors, rough-housing with older dogs, and jumping. And yet, someone draws a conclusion that something is wrong with a breeder - how many years out? It's unfair. It's depressing. I want to say go away person. I don't want to read your gripes. There are enough unreasonable people who are disrespectful to small business owners every day. You've got to have more of a case before you can act like a pit bull. Don't taint a good breeder and all the other families with pups from this breeder with this kinda stuff. 

Okay - I'm done. Good night.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

My youngest has elbow dysplasia (not from your breeder, but from clear parents). Did you know that even with two clear parents, something like 1 in 8 will have elbow dysplasia (Golden Retriever Club of America - Health)? That's basically one pup per average size litter. Unfortunately bad things happen even when a breeder does the best they can. I was lucky, my breeder was very nice about the whole situation. But it wasn't their "fault". We are buying living, breathing beings, not robots. There is no way to 100% be able to "guarantee" anything with puppies. I'm sorry your dog has elbow dysplasia-I know first hand how it feels. But from the looks of it, your breeder did the testing and they contract you got doesn't give you any recourse for a refund.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I think this person is more upset about the breeder's attitude. I would hope my breeder would be empathetic and very concerned that a pup of theirs had elbow dysplasia in BOTH elbows!!!
Ethical breeders care about ALL of their pups they put out in the world for the rest of their lives!
As for the poster who doesn't want to hear complaints about breeders/and "gripes", don't read these threads! Stick your head in the sand and end up with a dog with hereditary diseases etc.

I doubt an ethical breeder would probably have anyone on the Forum complaining about them. And an ethical breeder would want issues brought to them about a pup they produced.

My puppy has a slight underbite (which is what kept him from being the pick of the litter other wise!) Our breeder and the sire's owner both are going to pay for Sasha to see a veterinary dental specialist at CO. State!!! It is unlikely this will ever cause Sasha any problems and will likely go away when his adult teeth come in, but I am SO impressed with their care and concern about the puppies they are putting out into the world! Who wouldn't want a breeder like this?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I also want to add that I contacted both my breeder and the sire's owner when Gunner developed not only hypothyroid but Pigmentary Uveitis and Glaucoma. I didn't expect them to pay his medical bills but I did expect some concern and for sure to stop breeding their dam and sire!!!
The breeder had her dam spayed. The sire's owner not only did not respond to me but continued to use her dog at stud.
I don't consider that an ethical breeder either!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am one of those people whose golden has grade III bilateral ED with generations of clear goldens behind her. The reason to choose a reputable breeder is tested at times like that. My golden's breeder refunded her entire purchase price and was very sorry. Later, it turned out that the litter's mother produced more ED, so it wasnt a fluke. Bilateral ED is genetic. I would send those elbows into OFA to get an official rating of dysplasia, and then check out CA's lemon laws. There is no point in seeking a good breeder in good faith, if they do not back you up when there is a genetic problem.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Marty's Mom said:


> This is a personal matter.


Actually, the really great breeders go public with health problems they produce in an effort to help the breed overall. We just had a GRF breeder educate us all about Pigmentary Uveitis when her dog was diagnosed with it rather than try to deny and hide or white-wash it. There is a ton of pressure to hide problems like ED- to keep it off public databases. Who does that serve? Not the goldens.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> I am one of those people whose golden has grade III bilateral ED with generations of clear goldens behind her. The reason to chose a reputable breeder is tested at times like that. My golden's breeder refunded her entire purchase price and was very sorry. Later, it turned out that the litter's mother produces more ED, so it wasnt a fluke. Bilateral ED is genetic. I would send those elbows into OFA to get an official rating of dysplasia, and then check out CA's lemon laws. There is no point in seeking a good breeder in good faith, if they do not back you up when there is a genetic problem.


Absolutely agree with this and Debles posts. 

My Danny had bilateral ED too. It is most definitely genetic. There's nothing worse than being told by the vet that your dog likely was born with bad or weak elbows and being told by the breeder that it was your fault because you did not wrap the puppy in bubble wrap.

Our breeder did help us out (located a specialist, did the legwork with the xrays, and sorted out the best way to keep our dog pain free the rest of his life) and there were other things she did to help us out, but her stance was it was not her breeding's fault. And she continued to breed the same parents and there were other young dogs with assorted joint problems.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

IowaGold said:


> My youngest has elbow dysplasia (not from your breeder, but from clear parents). Did you know that even with two clear parents, something like 1 in 8 will have elbow dysplasia (Golden Retriever Club of America - Health)? That's basically one pup per average size litter. Unfortunately bad things happen even when a breeder does the best they can. I was lucky, my breeder was very nice about the whole situation. But it wasn't their "fault". We are buying living, breathing beings, not robots. There is no way to 100% be able to "guarantee" anything with puppies. I'm sorry your dog has elbow dysplasia-I know first hand how it feels. But from the looks of it, your breeder did the testing and they contract you got doesn't give you any recourse for a refund.


Something I've always wondered about elbows... is why there isn't a test that shows the degrees of good elbows, similar to what you have with hips. 

Just because both parents have "normal" elbows doesn't necessarily mean the same as a dog with an "excellent" or "good" hip rating. For all we know, the "normal" rating could be the same as breeding two dogs with fair hips.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Bravo Jill and Deb !!!!! I so agree that GOOD breeders will care about their offspring throughout their lifetimes, which can take many different forms....from monetary compensation, support and advice, referrals, but most of all ACKNOWLEGEMENT. And using that knowledge for further breeding decisions. And you can bet the ones that don't will be called out, as they well should. I hope the OP stays around..... she will receive the support and friendship she deserves from most, and find good info and advice from some that have pups that have also had an ED dx.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Marty's Mom said:


> Personally, I find posts like this so unfair to the breeder. Why anyone would want to become a breeder when someone can just put your name out there and harm your hard earned reputation is beyond me. This is a personal matter. I believe it is far more likely that a pup could be injured with excessive exercise, sliding on floors, rough-housing with older dogs, and jumping. And yet, someone draws a conclusion that something is wrong with a breeder - how many years out? It's unfair. It's depressing. I want to say go away person. I don't want to read your gripes. There are enough unreasonable people who are disrespectful to small business owners every day. You've got to have more of a case before you can act like a pit bull. Don't taint a good breeder and all the other families with pups from this breeder with this kinda stuff.
> 
> Okay - I'm done. Good night.


This post really rankles me. When a breeder behaves the way this breeder (allegedly) has behaved, I think the OP has every right to inquire about it. This post is just so unnecessary.

And to insinuate that the OP's dogs ED was caused by physical overstimulation is just wrong. Elbow dysplasia is a hereditary issue. Sure, in some cases it may be caused by too much exercise. But I imagine most of the owners on this board who have dogs with ED would argue otherwise.

To the OP: I too was met with ambivalence when I inquired about Flora's hereditary knee problems. All I wanted to do was inform her breeder that Flora was going into surgery, and give them food for thought on whether or not they wanted to continue breeding two dogs where two puppies (one of Flora's littermates) were diagnosed with a hereditary issue. I am still bitter about it (obviously ) but I have tried to move on. I guess what I'm saying is... well, I still respect the breeder Flora came from, they do produce amazing dogs, but sometimes a breeder's bedside manner can leave a lot to be desired. That said, they did actually retire Flora's mother sometime last year. I do not know if it was a coincidence or not, but that did make me feel a little better.


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## theKingLouie (Aug 5, 2010)

*Masterson*

I own a dog from Jennifer Masterson. He came from the Henley and Shelly litter, born on Feb 2009. 

The only problem I've had with Louie is that he developed growing pains at an early age (5-6 months)--the technical term is called panosteitis. I contacted Jennifer with the situation and she was very responsive with her emails. She mentioned that it's common in large breed dogs and after taking Louie to the vet and getting a few x-rays his hips looked perfectly healthy. Louie is doing fine now, though I've noticed that he still doesn't put full weight on his hind legs. I still keep a close watch on him but besides that, I haven't seen any other problems.

I know that Jennifer cares a lot about her pups and she is a very reputable breeder. I had another breeder in mind, but chose her over the other after speaking and meeting with her. Other owners that I have come across that have dogs from her all seem pleased as well. She is very knowledgeable and I would definitely give her the benefit of the doubt. I do hope she acknowledges the fact that some of her pups are being diagnosed with elbow dysplasia moving forward.

Keep us posted, and I hope Simba has a speedy recovery. 





sonaliagrawal said:


> My lovely 2.5 yr old puppy Simba came from Jennifer Masterson (Masters Goldens based out of Petaluma, CA) in 2008. He is Anthony and Delia's offspring from the litter of May 2008.
> 
> I had done all my research about Jennifer Masterson before proceding with her as the chosen breeder for my future pup. She is very reputable in this area, and is considered one of the best here in NorCal.
> 
> ...


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Megora said:


> being told by the breeder that it was your fault because you did not wrap the puppy in bubble wrap.


My favourite quote on the forum, by far! lol


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Megora said:


> Something I've always wondered about elbows... is why there isn't a test that shows the degrees of good elbows, similar to what you have with hips.
> 
> Just because both parents have "normal" elbows doesn't necessarily mean the same as a dog with an "excellent" or "good" hip rating. For all we know, the "normal" rating could be the same as breeding two dogs with fair hips.


Part of the problem is the "experts" can not agree on what is even dysplastic and what is noormal. I know of numerous dog's elbows rated bi-lateral by OFA and normal by OVC - from the exact same xrays. Until there is better diagnostic methods they will remain gray and controversial.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Megora said:


> Something I've always wondered about elbows... is why there isn't a test that shows the degrees of good elbows, similar to what you have with hips.
> 
> Just because both parents have "normal" elbows doesn't necessarily mean the same as a dog with an "excellent" or "good" hip rating. For all we know, the "normal" rating could be the same as breeding two dogs with fair hips.


And yet, breeding two dogs with Fair hips is perfectly acceptable and may produce offspring with Good and Excellent hips. People tend to forget that a Fair rating means no signs of hip dysplasia or degenerative joint disease, and that ancestor and littermate ratings are important as well.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Double posting... sorry. See below.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tahnee GR said:


> And yet, breeding two dogs with Fair hips is perfectly acceptable and may produce offspring with Good and Excellent hips. People tend to forget that a Fair rating means no signs of hip dysplasia or degenerative joint disease, and that ancestor and littermate ratings are important as well.


That is true, except when you look at the difference between Good and Fair and read the description from the OFFA website -



> Fair: Assigned where minor irregularities in the hip joint exist. The hip joint is wider than a good hip phenotype. This is due to the ball slightly slipping out of the socket causing a minor degree of joint incongruency. There may also be slight inward deviation of the weight-bearing surface of the socket (dorsal acetabular rim) causing the socket to appear slightly shallow.


And read that hips judged to be "borderline" dysplastic are given a "Fair" rating if there are no bone changes in 6 months... You can kinda see why too many Fairs in a breeding, including both parents, would make a puppy buyer uncomfortable.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Megora said:


> That is true, except when you look at the difference between Good and Fair and read the description from the OFFA website -
> 
> 
> 
> And read that hips judged to be "borderline" dysplastic are given a "Fair" rating if there are no bone changes in 6 months... You can kinda see why too many Fairs in a breeding, including both parents, would make a puppy buyer uncomfortable.


But again, no dysplasia and no DJD with a Fair. And again, would rather breed 2 Fairs with Goods and a few Excellents and Fairs scattered around their pedigree, than a Good and an Excellent with dysplastic dogs behind them. And knowing the history is important-is the Excellent dog throwing lots of dysplastic pups? And the Fair throwing mostly Goods? So much more than just the ratings of the parents, and so short-sighted to look just at that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tahnee GR said:


> But again, no dysplasia and no DJD with a Fair. And again, would rather breed 2 Fairs with Goods and a few Excellents and Fairs scattered around their pedigree, than a Good and an Excellent with dysplastic dogs behind them. And knowing the history is important-is the Excellent dog throwing lots of dysplastic pups? And the Fair throwing mostly Goods? So much more than just the ratings of the parents, and so short-sighted to look just at that.


Yep, I understand this argument.

But would you breed two Fairs together? Let say the sire is a fair and has a limited pedigree (meaning that there isn't enough information on siblings available) but he has a fair grandfather and so forth. And the female is also fair and has a similar background. 

The other thing - and I wish there was a way for this information to be automatically be updated to pedigrees on OFFA or K9data or elsewhere - but very few pet owners have their dogs xrayed without reason. So they might very well own dogs who have bad hips and elbows. Or if they do have the xrays done and get an ED or HD dx, they don't send that info to the OFA or post that info on K9data. So these dogs are invisible when people are going online and researching pedigrees during a puppy search. 

Do breeders see something different that we do?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Megora said:


> The other thing - and I wish there was a way for this information to be automatically be updated to pedigrees on OFFA or K9data or elsewhere - but very few pet owners have their dogs xrayed without reason. So they might very well own dogs who have bad hips and elbows. Or if they do have the xrays done and get an ED or HD dx, they don't send that info to the OFA or post that info on K9data. So these dogs are invisible when people are going online and researching pedigrees during a puppy search.
> 
> Do breeders see something different that we do?



Breeders see the same info you do on OFA, CERF and K9Data databases. However those databases do not see the info that is not submitted as you state above so the breeders in this case do have more info than you do. And those databases do not show publicly the info for dogs that are submitted but do not pass unless the owner has checked the box to make that info public.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I believe this individual has no ground to stand on and should not be ruining someone's good name. Its wrong. There is just one side of the story here. We don't know what the breeder said or what really happened. My head is not buried in the sand. I do believe an individual would use this forum for their own purposes. We don't know the facts and yet this person can put the breeders name and location right out there - I would be horrified. I would ask this person, how do you really know - you've had this pup for 2 and 1/2 years . . . how could you do something like this without having anything solid - you're looking for people to make them aware . . . hmmm? I think your post is self-serving. 

And as for KD Marsh - I was with you for two plus hours on a hike when your puppy was not more than four months old. It was a lovely day - but my young dogs were exhausted and your puppy was crying for you to pick her up - it was excessive and you were doing this kind of thing because of your work and you had no one to care for her during the day while your parents were gone. I thought the hike we shared would be no more than an hour - it seemed to go on forever and my first thought was, this is not good for her puppy. You wanted to show us the marsh you had been to a day or so before and we were lost - but it was a very long walk for a new puppy. Then you posted about her jumping and crying out. I said something to you about that because my own pup had a strain from rough housing with older dogs and her activity had to be curtailed for a month. You also had her at daycare if I recall and she stayed with someone else at their home when you had to go away. So it was very possible it could have been excessive exercise - or just puppy rough housing. Given my personal experience with two of our breeders dogs, my personal interactions with our breeder, and the brief, but personal time I spent with you - and your love of nature and long walks - I am more inclined to believe the problem is not with the breeder's line. 

I've never said a thing - but it "rankles" me - when you bash our breeder because I have some insight that you don't consider. There is no problem with our breeders "bedside" manner. He is very compassionate and has an enormous amount of integrity - and each time you re-tell the story - several people come forward to support him. And our breeder retires each mother when it is time - for her well-being - but if you think it was just for you, good : ) I'm glad you feel better. 

I want what is best for all dogs - but we have enough of this other stuff going on in our media. The post is out of line - that is my opinion. She doesn't want to alert others - she wants to bully the breeder into making a refund or paying the bill. And that is disgusting. Breeders don't make a lot of money - and everyone seems to want to litigate. Lemon laws? The only thing everyone here can be certain of is that life is fragile. We don't know if this pup is a "lemon" (good lord). This is sad how quickly we rush to judgment.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Marty's Mom said:


> \I would ask this person, how do you really know - you've had this pup for 2 and 1/2 years . . . how could you do something like this without having anything solid -.


Ummm- when a board certified orthopedist takes xrays and his/her diagnosis is ED, and the OFA concurs with Grade III elbow dysplasia- that is pretty solid. Are you trying to say that no orthopedic vet is capable of diagnosing a case of ED in a 2 1/2 year old dog?
Every golden breeder will struggle with an occasional health problem- statistics promise that. It is not a commentary on them, but a sad fact that goldens do have genetic issues that occur even with the very best planning& screening. 

Therefore, every breeder needs to be prepared to handle these situations - financially and emotionally. If you sell a pup with a grade 4/5 heart murmur or hip/elbow dysplasia, you have to refund the purchase price of the puppy. Yes, it is fair to make sure the vet is competent or to ask that the OFA certify the results, but it is not okay to refuse to answer emails/ phone calls or blame the buyer from the get-go.


Your attack on a fellow GRF member seems a bit ironic, since it seems to commit the very same crime you were protesting.This is life in the 21st century- if you look up Hopkins School on RateMy Teacher .com, you'll find students giving their opinions on my classes, lol. For better or for worse, public information is very public. 

Lemon laws supercede contracts in some states so that if a puppy mill sells a dog that will die in 6 months from a terminal heart defect or require 4,500 dollars worth of surgery in order to live a life without chromic pain, the buyer has some recourse. I am currently following with interest a case in which a good breeder is suing an iffy breeder for fudging a heart clearance. It is curious to me that you feel someone selling pups for 2,000 apiece should not be financially accountable for genetic defects that require expensive treatment or that endanger the life of the dog. When you buy a puppy for 2,000 on full registration as a show/performance puppy, but that puppy has a heart defect so severe he cannot live past two years old, then the breeder should either step up willingly or be compelled to do the right thing by the law.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> Therefore, every breeder needs to be prepared to handle these situations - financially and emotionally. If you sell a pup with a grade 4/5 heart murmur or hip/elbow dysplasia, you have to refund the purchase price of the puppy. Yes, it is fair to make sure the vet is competent or to ask that the OFA certify the results, but it is not okay to refuse to answer emails/ phone calls or blame the buyer from the get-go.
> 
> 
> 
> Lemon laws supercede contracts in some states so that if a puppy mill sells a dog that will die in 6 months from a terminal heart defect or require 4,500 dollars worth of surgery in order to live a life without chromic pain, the buyer has some recourse. I am currently following with interest a case in which a good breeder is suing an iffy breeder for fudging a heart clearance. It is curious to me that you feel someone selling pups for 2,000 apiece should not be financially accountable for genetic defects that require expensive treatment or that endanger the life of the dog. When you buy a puppy for 2,000 on full registration as a show/performance puppy, but that puppy has a heart defect so severe he cannot live past two years old, then the breeder should either step up willingly or be compelled to do the right thing by the law.



If this is the way ANYONE feels when purchasing a pup then they need to be sure that is what the contract states. Not fair to accept a contract and then expect the other party to go above and beyond what they agreed to do. While some will, none are compelled to. We are dealing with living, breathing, fragile creatures not a laptop or toaster.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

What is on a contract and what is ethical and moral can be two totally different things.
As I already stated in my earlier post, maybe the breeder isn't legally obligated to pay but what kind of ethical breeder doesn't care about the ongoing health of one of their pups? and doesn't even want to know about it !
Not one I would be interested in. They are no better than a puppy mill to me. As Marty's Mom said: JMO.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I would not expect my breeder to pay for every single defect that may occur in my dog--hey, a purchase price refund maybe or some money would be nice but I personally don't expect it. You can't guarantee that no matter how careful you are.

I do expect my breeder to breed only cleared dogs, and to study pedigrees and make careful decisions so that I can take home a healthy puppy. I do expect my breeder to spay/neuter her dogs if it is found that a horrible trait is being passed on to the offspring. And I do expect my breeder to care if something does come up and provide support.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> Ummm- when a board certified orthopedist takes xrays and his/her diagnosis is ED, and the OFA concurs with Grade III elbow dysplasia- that is pretty solid. Are you trying to say that no orthopedic vet is capable of diagnosing a case of ED in a 2 1/2 year old dog?
> Every golden breeder will struggle with an occasional health problem- statistics promise that. It is not a commentary on them, but a sad fact that goldens do have genetic issues that occur even with the very best planning& screening.
> 
> Therefore, every breeder needs to be prepared to handle these situations - financially and emotionally. If you sell a pup with a grade 4/5 heart murmur or hip/elbow dysplasia, you have to refund the purchase price of the puppy. Yes, it is fair to make sure the vet is competent or to ask that the OFA certify the results, but it is not okay to refuse to answer emails/ phone calls or blame the buyer from the get-go.
> ...


Thanks Jill! I so agree!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

And more people equate this thinking as what a "responsible/ethical" breeder is the faster you will see their prices rise and then the true puppy mills will prosper even more. There are responsible breeders who get out of breeding due to the litigious tendencies of today's society. 
As for the OP's statement of the facts, as already stated it is only one side. I am not willing to burn this breeder who has established a reputable reputation over the years on one person's post. Not saying they are not stating the facts accurately, just stating it may not be so clear cut.
JMO



Debles said:


> What is on a contract and what is ethical and moral can be two totally different things.
> As I already stated in my earlier post, maybe the breeder isn't legally obligated to pay but what kind of ethical breeder doesn't care about the ongoing health of one of their pups? and doesn't even want to know about it !
> Not one I would be interested in. They are no better than a puppy mill to me. As Marty's Mom said: JMO.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I do have a question.
What do you believe the moral and ethical responsibility of the stud owner should be in a case such as this? 
Is not the stud owner also responsible for what he produces?
Does not the stud owner have the same responsibility to research the pedigrees of every bitch the boy is bred too prior to allowing their dog to breed to the bitch?
It is always interesting to me how among breeders it is always thew stud owner who is at fault for any issues with a breeding but the puppy buying public always sees all issues as arising from the stud. And before anyone says "we only gave money to the breeder for the pup" you need to understand the stud owner also gets a potion of the puppy price as a fee for his "services"


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

If you read my 2nd post you would see I also hold the stud owner of Gunner's sire irresponsible in continuing to use their dog at stud after she was well aware that Gunner has PU, Glaucoma and Hypothyroid. I did not expect them to cover any costs of his treatment (the breeder either) just to stop using this dog at stud!
I feel you are totally misunderstanding the point I am trying to make, Hank. It has nothing to do with money or litigation. I am speaking about breeders/stud owners in general as to what an ethical/responsible breeder is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Debles said:


> If you read my 2nd post you would see I also hold the stud owner of Gunner's sire irresponsible in continuing to use their dog at stud after she was well aware that Gunner has PU, Glaucoma and Hypothyroid. I did not expect them to cover any costs of his treatment (the breeder either) just to stop using this dog at stud!
> *I feel you are totally misunderstanding the point I am trying to make, Hank. It has nothing to do with money or litigation. I am speaking about breeders/stud owners in general as to what an ethical/responsible breeder is.*


I heartily agree with this. 

And I guess I'd throw in here... we never got money back w/regards to Danny's elbows. It was covered in the puppy contract, but the breeder refused to acknowledge that the ED was hereditary. She claimed we did not hold up our end of the contract, because he was permitted to run and play in our large front yard. We explained to her that she had sold us a high energy puppy who could not be kept on leash and walked until he was 2 years old, and young dogs (especially the one she sold us) need to run around outside and burn off energy. 

- Just to clarify: There was no jumping or chance of injury, or forced exercise. We were told to limit walks and that was done. 

She also claimed we did not keep feeding the holistic food she sent home with him, and that feeding him Eukanuba and then Iams had somehow robbed him of necessary nutrients. 

We did not demand money from her and appreciated everything she did to help us that year, but obviously we would have liked to see her stop breeding his parents.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> If this is the way ANYONE feels when purchasing a pup then they need to be sure that is what the contract states. Not fair to accept a contract and then expect the other party to go above and beyond what they agreed to do. While some will, none are compelled to. We are dealing with living, breathing, fragile creatures not a laptop or toaster.


Well said.

IMO if the breeder does all the clearances, studies the pedigrees for issues and does everything in his/her power to produce healthy dogs, he/she should not be slammed. Chances are even with the most careful matings to have issues in the long run. I have seen an entire litter pedigree with HD A(pefect hips) for 5 generations, and the litter had HD C and even D(mild dysplasia). Would I blame the breeder? Absolutely not! It was a careful planned litter, with amazing dogs in the pedigree. It was an unfortunate event. Same dogs, in many other pedigrees did not produce ANY issues. 

And also, many tend to forget that exposure to certain household chemicals CAN produce issues. Genetics can give a predisposition towards certain things, but it's the environment that has a bigger percent in causing issues. 

Even the chemicals used to preserve food cause cancers. 

HD and ED can be caused by extreme physical activity in the first year of a dog. Constant jumping, climbing of stairs, intensive effort CAN be the cause of ED and HD. Slippery surfaces can also cause a lot of issues! How many owners would be willing to admit they allowed something like that? It's easier to blame the breeder. 

Debles, you really can't expect a stud to be neutered just because he produced a pup with an issue. I am really sorry for your situation, but you expect too much.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

.... what if there are a few pups from the mom/dad that have developed similar issues. Would you then state that it is still just enviromental or too much exercise as a pup or something like that? Just wondering.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay another question(s) then
Several have stated that they strongly believe the parents of a pup that develops health issue should be spayed/neutered and not be bred again. You say this even though there is no scientific data to support this. Is it your way of seeking justice? I really do not understand. Just because a breeding produces a health issue in a pup, or even a few pups, does not warrant this "throwing out the baby with the bath water" mentality. Do you understand the mode of inheritance for this particular issue you refer to? Was it the breeding of this particular stud to this particular stud that created this issue? Has the stud or bitch produced this same issue in a breeding to another?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Honestly my questions are not aimed at you in particular but to all those who have stated similar positions. 



Debles said:


> If you read my 2nd post you would see I also hold the stud owner of Gunner's sire irresponsible in continuing to use their dog at stud after she was well aware that Gunner has PU, Glaucoma and Hypothyroid. I did not expect them to cover any costs of his treatment (the breeder either) just to stop using this dog at stud!
> I feel you are totally misunderstanding the point I am trying to make, Hank. It has nothing to do with money or litigation. I am speaking about breeders/stud owners in general as to what an ethical/responsible breeder is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> Okay another question(s) then
> Several have stated that they strongly believe the parents of a pup that develops health issue should be spayed/neutered and not be bred again. You say this even though there is no scientific data to support this. *Is it your way of seeking justice?* I really do not understand. Just because a breeding produces a health issue in a pup, or even a few pups, does not warrant this "throwing out the baby with the bath water" mentality. Do you understand the mode of inheritance for this particular issue you refer to? Was it the breeding of this particular stud to this particular stud that created this issue? Has the stud or bitch produced this same issue in a breeding to another?


Mainly, I think that if you know that a breeding between a specific sire and bitch produced a litter where more than one puppy have the same issue (bilateral elbow dysplasia) at the same age (7 months), you should recognize the need to not repeat that breeding. 

I know that one puppy from Danny's litter was put to sleep because his elbow and hip dysplasia was so severe. We were fortunate in that Danny only had "the worst case of elbow dysplasia" that my one vet had ever seen. 

And I think puppy owners - as in the people who are paying the vet bills, and love and are caring for the disabled animals do not want to hear breeders babbling about environmental and nutritional causes for the hereditary condition of their dogs. 

I know that breeders are not made of money and are generally unable to refund the full cost of a disabled puppy. That's part of the reason why we did not ask for our money back. But it would have been nice for the future (remember, having a young dog who can't stand up much less walk because of pain is a traumatic experience nobody would want to go through twice) to know that breeders are being careful about repeating breedings like that.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

If you are saying that this breeder has after being aware of issues from the first breeding continued to repeat the same breeding then I would have to agree with you whole heartedly. There is no sensible reason to do so. To me that would border on criminal behavior. 




Megora said:


> Mainly, I think that if you know that a breeding between a specific sire and bitch produced a litter where more than one puppy have the same issue (bilateral elbow dysplasia) at the same age (7 months), you should recognize the need to not repeat that breeding.
> 
> I know that one puppy from Danny's litter was put to sleep because his elbow and hip dysplasia was so severe. We were fortunate in that Danny only had "the worst case of elbow dysplasia" that my one vet had ever seen.
> 
> ...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The stud dog owner is the same for Debles and me- and in both cases went above and beyond. She is a wonderful example of a responsible stud dog owner.

The owners of the girl who produced ED in my dog and Iowagold's dog with different fathers decided to spay her all on their own. 

I agree that dogs are fragile beings, and I personally would never sue a breeder for a puppy not passing a clearance etc. In fact, I adore the breeder of my dog who has epilepsy. She told me that though her dogs tend to have above average hips/elbows, she had struggled to breed epilepsy out of her line and thought she succeeded. She did not try to blame me or deny responsibility, and decided not to breed her girl again. I did not even think of asking her for money. My love for the dog and my respect for the breeder are undamaged. That is how it should be.

If she had implied the epilepsy was somehow my fault or refused to take my calls, I would feel differently about her.


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## Honeybelles Dad (Sep 3, 2010)

I am certainly not as qualified to get into the breeding aspects of this. I do think the OP should have perhaps first posted," looking for owners of dogs from this breeder" with a side note being..."health questions". After she made contact with the owners she could have gathered info and stats that perhaps could substanciate her theory on the breeding and problems resulting..then approach the breeder with the facts and say...something is wrong here and lets make it right. I have no idea what the breeder said when contacted or how she was contacted or what the other side of the story is here. I feel sorry for the pup first off. Everyone has a right to post good information that might avoid others from going through this ordeal, but, I think this post goes beyond that and is more personal, thats how it came across to me anyway. I applaud the OP for looking for other dog owners from this breeder, a good start for sure, but the facts should have been gathered before the comments on the breeder were posted. Just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> We are dealing with living, breathing, fragile creatures not a laptop or toaster.


Breeders sell puppies for cash, but buyers looking to be treated fairly financially when a puppy has hip dysplasia or SAS are crass? Sorry. The pup is already objectified when it is sold for money like a laptop or a toaster. I adore my goldens, and I have learned by now that there are as many ways to be fooled as a puppy buyer as there are ways to connected to amazing people breeding dogs for the right reasons.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> If this is the way ANYONE feels when purchasing a pup then they need to be sure that is what the contract states. Not fair to accept a contract and then expect the other party to go above and beyond what they agreed to do. While some will, none are compelled to. We are dealing with living, breathing, fragile creatures not a laptop or toaster.


I do agree that the contract should include fair protection for both the breeder and buyer.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

You have let us all know where you believe we are wrongheaded, so I'd genuinely like to hear if there is a time you believe the purchase price of a puppy should be refunded?

7 week old puppy with SAS at 24 hour wellness check - cardiologist says grade 4/5.

5 month old puppy crippled/hobbling on front legs - was swimmer puppy, but buyer never informed of that. Orthopedic vet says ED, and OFA confirms a grade III in both elbows.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Marty's Mom said:


> And as for KD Marsh - I was with you for two plus hours on a hike when your puppy was not more than four months old. It was a lovely day - but my young dogs were exhausted and your puppy was crying for you to pick her up - it was excessive and you were doing this kind of thing because of your work and you had no one to care for her during the day while your parents were gone. I thought the hike we shared would be no more than an hour - it seemed to go on forever and my first thought was, this is not good for her puppy. You wanted to show us the marsh you had been to a day or so before and we were lost - but it was a very long walk for a new puppy. Then you posted about her jumping and crying out. I said something to you about that because my own pup had a strain from rough housing with older dogs and her activity had to be curtailed for a month. You also had her at daycare if I recall and she stayed with someone else at their home when you had to go away. So it was very possible it could have been excessive exercise - or just puppy rough housing. Given my personal experience with two of our breeders dogs, my personal interactions with our breeder, and the brief, but personal time I spent with you - and your love of nature and long walks - I am more inclined to believe the problem is not with the breeder's line.


The only reason I walked that far was because you kept walking... when it was all over all I could think about was how long the walk was and how you could possibly walk your puppy that long. I don't think I walked Flora that long again until she was well over a year old! I guess we both were thinking the same thing about the other person but neither of us wanted to say it out loud. It's an understandable mistake.

As for the jumping and crying out loud - that ended up being patellar luxation, which if you read up on it, is a congenital disorder that is also hereditary and can't in any way be created by physical overstimulation. If you can come up with some exercise that diminishes the groove in a dog's knee, then by all means please let me know what it is so I can stop doing it right away and save Flora her right knee.

In my defense, I NEVER asked for monetary compensation. When my vet said, "Yes, this can be passed from a parent dog to its offspring," all I wanted to do was inform Flora's breeder that it was there. Simple. Also, I feel that I have said more than my fair praises about Flora's breeder. I know they are reputable and I know they produce sound dogs. I just did not like the way they handled our particular situation. They immediately insinuated that Flora's weight (at the time of 11 months she was 63lbs) was the reason she had a luxating patella. I was offended and frankly, pissed off.

And this is all I will ever say in response to your posts, MartysMom. I do believe you are a very nice person but you seem to take things a bit too personally sometimes. Let's just agree to disagree.

ETA: I'm sorry I ranted and got off track. I promise this will be my last post on this thread! Sorry.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> You have let us all know where you believe we are wrongheaded, so I'd genuinely like to hear if there is a time you believe the purchase price of a puppy should be refunded?
> 
> 7 week old puppy with SAS at 24 hour wellness check - cardiologist says grade 4/5.
> 
> 5 month old puppy crippled/hobbling on front legs - was swimmer puppy, but buyer never informed of that. Orthopedic vet says ED, and OFA confirms a grade III in both elbows.



I believe that a puppy buyer should not have/demand expectations beyond what is stated in a contract and that is all that has been my point in this.
As for myself I would give the complete refund in the second example and of course the puppy family would decide if they wanted to keep the pup or return it. The puppy at 7 weeks would have never left my home till we were sure the issue was resolved. 

As a breeder these were my biggest fears from the moment I considered breeding. And my worst nightmare came to being. I produced a puppy that died from a rare form of leukemia at 15 months of age. The "GOOD" part about it was it was the pup I kept from that litter. I have no idea how I could have handled that emotionally if it was any other pup in that litter. Yet if I was to see the same scenario with another breeder and the pup had been placed with me I would not expect the breeder to do more than was in the contract. While this was not the case with Oriana it was still VERY disappointing to me. The breeder was aware of what my intentions were if all went well, to breed her. A few days after bringing her home she was diagnosed with retinal dysplasia, which meant she would not be bred. She was just 8 weeks old at the time. The breeder told me she would fly up and get her and give me a full refund, which was part of the contract. I told her over my dead body. The pup was here and staying and it would all work out fine. The breeder went above what was in the contract and sent me a partial refund - I was floored. She did not have to do this, nor did I in anyway expect her to do so. Similar to your experience with your girl's elbows, I remember how surprised and pleased you were.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> Breeders sell puppies for cash, but buyers looking to be treated fairly financially when a puppy has hip dysplasia or SAS are crass? Sorry. The pup is already objectified when it is sold for money like a laptop or a toaster. I adore my goldens, and I have learned by now that there are as many ways to be fooled as a puppy buyer as there are ways to connected to amazing people breeding dogs for the right reasons.



Jill I am not talking about breeders that are using ways to fool a puppy buyer. My point was if a breeder does his research on the pedigrees, does the clearances and provides a contract that a buyer is willing to accept then why do we think they have to go beyond that? And "sorry" but you can not compare a puppy to a toaster or laptop in my mind. Not in a million years.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Maybe I am mistaken. I am pretty sure Pigmentary Uveitis is hereditary. At least that is what I took from Point Gold's thread on eye checks. I know there is a study going on in which they are attempting to prove it for sure. (and we are participating. I doubt the sire's owner is)
We happen to know for a fact that the eye defect and thyroid problem came from the sire's side. And even though the sire's owner had been interested in Gunner previously to his developing these issues, I can only assume her lack of response to his PU and hypothyroid was a blaring lack of concern as a breeder for one of the pups she produced when he showed a genetic disease.
I have never expected her or my breeder to pay for it. But I find her behavior highly unethical and Yes, it is my opinion and I don't think I expect too much.

That is why I am so appreciative of our current breeder and sire's owner who are willing to pay for Sasha's dental exam and treatment by a specialist if needed. THAT is a very ethical breeder! And there is nothing in our contract about that. They just care about the pups they put out.

Anyone else is free to keep their low expectations of their breeders. Fine by me.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Jill, first of all, I have always thought highly of you. But you have taken on the wrong cause this time. We have a person here - with no name - no facts - nothing, who is trying to build a case against a breeder. Somehow it went from that to something way different.

And obviously you are much younger than I because you welcomed me to the 21st Century, which my college-aged children do all the time. To that I remind you, it was the baby boomer's who ushered in the information age. Use this opportunity to listen to what your "elders" on this forum have to share. 

I hold breeders to very high standards - but there is no case here. Since you mentioned lemon laws - tell us one thing this person posted that has merit in a court of law? If you want to try this breeder, you better be ready. 

We want reputable breeders to continue the good work they are doing - for the betterment of breed - for the betterment of our world (am I over-reacting? "ummm" I don't think so.) 

There is wisdom here from real life experience. Ambika is doing fine on his own - he certainly doesn't need me - but, dammit, he is right.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

No, the mode of inheritance is not yet known or understood. That is what the research is hoping to be able to determine. And I agree that if Gunner's breeder and sire owner have been unresponsive, that is deplorable. And unfortunately I know of other breeders I once considered "responsible" that I no longer hold in the same regard, all due to there heads in the sand, don't ask don't tell or just plain don't give a **** attitudes. 
As for your new puppy's breeder and sire owner, are you appreciative because they went above and beyond the contract or because they did what you expected minimally from them even though it is not stated in your contract? 
No one is saying anyone should have low expectations of their breeders just fair and equitable ones. 



Debles said:


> Maybe I am mistaken. I am pretty sure Pigmentary Uveitis is hereditary. At least that is what I took from Point Gold's thread on eye checks. I know there is a study going on in which they are attempting to prove it for sure. (and we are participating. I doubt the sire's owner is)
> We happen to know for a fact that the eye defect and thyroid problem came from the sire's side. And even though the sire's owner had been interested in Gunner previously to his developing these issues, I can only assume her lack of response to his PU and hypothyroid was a blaring lack of concern as a breeder for one of the pups she produced when he showed a genetic disease.
> I have never expected her or my breeder to pay for it. But I find her behavior highly unethical and Yes, it is my opinion and I don't think I expect too much.
> 
> ...


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am appreciative because they obviously care very much about every puppy they put out into the world.

It is above and beyond that they are willing to pay for diagnosis and treatment of a possible problem that is not in the contract.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Why not call or email Jennifer Masterson and see if you can get a feel for what happened yourself? Perhaps she will surprise and impress you.

And I consider my breeder, Dichi, an extension of my family. I chose him because his values about life resonated with my heart. Because of the good work Dick and Chris do, our family is blessed with two very healthy, balanced pups. And there are many others who feel the way I do. 

So I'm sticking my neck out for this other breeder - Jennifer Masterson - because what was done was not fair and what we saw was a claim from someone we don't even know exists - and Jennifer wasn't even getting the benefit of the doubt. 

You are all lovely people - and everyone has made good points - it certainly is an interesting discussion - I'm all worn out on this - it is clear where I stand. 

Good night.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Marty'sMom, I have always liked you too, and I still like everyone. I enjoy the heated debates, mainly. 

I think you might have a good point about the type of thread overall that "names names' on GRF, but what I reacted to was the vehement attack on this particular OP and then on Flora's owner when it is community standard to run threads asking/questioning/complaining about specific breeders. Participating in these threads are everyone from AKC judges to breeders to Joe Public. There are 100s of these threads dealing with great breeders all the way through to convicted puppy mills. Do you want them all gone? Do they serve any productive purpose or are they all the worst kind of gossip? I think singling out this particular OP for something that occurs weekly here just is blindsiding for her. 

I feel your pain too about your breeder. Mine has also been excoriated here, and it was no fun. It hurt my feelings, it worried and upset me. Also, I spent a year making an idiot out of myself defending breeders with whom I personally had an excellent experience, but are truly con artists proven beyond a doubt. The forum, with its myriad perspectives and many voices, turned out to know much more than me as a collective. I am still ashamed I fought so hard to defend breeders who take such advantage of their puppy buyers. 

Maybe we do not want any of those threads or maybe we want to count on the fact that most people have common sense and will not convict in the court of public opinion without checking for themselves?

There is often an uneasy relationship between a breeder and a puppy buyer when something goes wrong; both want to blame the other all too often. It's human nature. However, a truly professional breeder knows that bilateral grade III hip dysplasia is a disaster for the puppy buyer even if its a fluke in his big picture. 

I am on the fence about the contract v the state law issue. I think many contracts are unfair to the clueless public, but that the best breeders have fair contracts. I think the puppy buyer should have recourse for a dog with crippling dysplasia or a life-threatening SAS regardless of if the contract saying tough luck. These laws developed bc of tricks in selling horses- like giving a lame horse bute so it doesnt limp until the buyer gets him home. I like to believe most golden breeders and golden puppy buyers are high above such things, but not all are.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Maybe we do not want any of those threads or maybe we want to count on the fact that most people have common sense and will not convict in the court of public opinion without checking for themselves?


I am glad such thread exist. There needs to be public knowledge and sharing of information, IMO.



Ljilly28 said:


> I am on the fence about the contract v the state law issue. I think many contracts are unfair to the clueless public, but that the best breeders have fair contracts. I think the puppy buyer should have recourse for a dog with crippling dysplasia or a life-threatening SAS regardless of if the contract saying tough luck. These laws developed bc of tricks in selling horses- like giving a lame horse bute so it doesnt limp until the buyer gets him home. I like to believe most golden breeders and golden puppy buyers are high above such things, but not all are.


But what kind of recourse are we talking about? I can see refunding the purchase price of the puppy maybe, but I think if otherwise the breeder crossed all his or hers t' and i's the buyer needs to accept that stuff happens that we cannot always prevent.

Or are the only ones who can breed the extraordinarily wealthy? The ones who can afford to spend $$$ to champion a dog, lose $$$ on litters, and shell out more $$ to pay for every health problem that a dog produced by them occurs. Or maybe they should raise the purchase price of their puppies and make them less affordable?


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Thank you, Jill. Your feedback matters to me : )



Ljilly28 said:


> Marty'sMom,
> 
> "but what I reacted to was the vehement attack on this particular OP and then on Flora's owner . . . "


 
Vehement? No. I am not an angry person. Passionate. Yes. With conviction? Yes. As anyone would be when a statement or statements are not fair or honest.

Have a lovely day. We're going for a healthy walk :wavey:


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I have a 20 month old dog from Jennifer. Ozzie is a show dog- he competes in hunt tests, obedience trials, and conformation. His hips and elbows came back perfect on OFA prelims. 

Jennifer trusted me enough to give me one of the most amazing dogs I've ever met or worked with and has spent countless hours mentoring me. I'm in St. Louis, and she's in California- she's also used her connections to hook me up with more local people in the Golden community to help me get my feet wet in the conformation world, etc. She's celebrated every success with me, responded to every phone call and looked at every of the thousands of pictures I've sent her. 

Jennifer has been responsive to me with all the successes Oz has had; answered every painstaking question I've had; and been attentive to the very few concerns about Oz I've had. I will say that I've talked with Jennifer about the situation posted here on the thread and it's absolutely not what you think. 

I understand those that feel Jennifer should have given a refund; however Jennifer's contract is very clear that she does not offer guarantees or refunds. The puppy buyers knew or should have known that a guarantee or refund was not forthcoming. If this was hang-up for them, they should have gone elsewhere- there are plenty of breeders who are willing to give guarantees. 

As for the mention of puppy lemon laws, while they do vary from state, those typically run from 3 days to 1 year (if and only if you can prove it is a congenital defect) after the puppy was purchased. The dog in question was well over the age for the CA Lemon Law, and ED is a poorly understood disease by the veterinary community. It's a multifactorial condition where genetics could have some effect, every effect or no effect.


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## aleigh (Nov 10, 2010)

I am sorry you are having issues with your golden. We got our first golden from Jennifer 6 years ago and he is so incredible that when our older golden got cancer we called Jennifer immediately and we ended up getting Anthony and Kitty's daughter. She was born in January 2008 and we have had no problems with her. All I can say is that we know other people that have Anthony's babies and they have had no problems. Unfortunately, dysplesia is part of the breed and I do not know how anyone can expect a breeder to garauntee that the puppies will not get it. It is almost like saying gaurantee that it won't get cancer-you can't change family histories. Jennifer has always responded and been very helpful if we have had any concerns or questions! I would highly reccommend her and her puppies! She truly cares about her puppies and who they go to. Good luck!


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

This has been a very interesting thread to read-particularly since most of the people participating in the thread, other than Hank, have never bred a litter, that I am aware of. There is an old saying about walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you pass judgement....please think long and hard on this and I will try to explain why.

I am a breeder. I have been breeding goldens for 15 plus years. I have been involved in obedience, agility and conformation with our dogs. I have bitches that are bred and I have boys that stand at public stud.

As a breeder, you are not a geneticist nor do you have a crystal ball. You do not breed dogs to create any problems or break any one's heart or cause their family a financial crisis or heartache. You breed dogs because you love this wonderful breed that we are all lucky to have as a part of our lives. There is limited information on a lot of the genetic issues that affect our dogs and often times the mode of inheritance is quite complex. There are also issues that are congenital. I do countless hours of research in planning any breeding and I do all the required clearances. My foundation bitch will be 14 years old in about a month and her ancestors also shared long lives. It would be nice if this would ensure that every puppy I ever produce would be healthy and live a long life-but it does not.

As Hank had stated in one of his posts, we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. This means that there is not a dog alive who when bred will not or does not have the propensity to produce a problem. Every dog has its problems. But, a breeder has to play with numbers and averages or there will be no dogs left to breed from. OK, when two dogs bred together produce more than one puppy that is affected with a certain problem, abolsutely, that PAIR should not be bred together again. That does not neccesarily mean that those dogs should never be bred to other dogs again. There are a lot of problems that affect golden retrievers-elbow dysplasia, hip dysplasia, SAS with the heart, a myriad of eye problems, cancer, allergies, seizures, hypothyroidism, temperament issues and these are just the tip of the iceburg!!! Some issues are obviously HUGE and others are not-however, I am not stating that having any of the above problems is OK. A dog cannot live with being diagnosed with cancer or a severe case of SAS. PU is a newer problem that we are dealing with and the outcome can be devastating to the dog. Severe elbow dysplasia is more problematic in most dogs than severe hip dysplasia because of the way dogs are built and move and distribute their weight. When breeding, the best you can do is try to stack the odds in your favor that you will produce healthy dogs by doing clearances and research and keeping in touch with the puppies that you have brought into the world. Please do not think automatically think the breeder doesn't care because you told them the dog has problem A and they didn't stop breeding that dog. Breeders that I know are keeping score and keeping track of what is being produced. A stud dog can easily produce 500 or more puppies in his lifetime. No, it is not good if you are notified that a puppy from your stud dog has been diagnosed with problem B. But, he has not ever produced that problem before in X amount of litters so please do not expect to have the stud dog owner remove them from a breeding program. As some else had mentioned, not everything is listed on K9data and the OFA website but the breeder and stud dog owner will have a lot more information than what you can possibly see. 

It appears to me that most of you want a breeder to be showing their dogs in some venue to prove they are worthy of being bred and that the breeder knows the difference between a good dog and not. You want clearances done on parents and back through the pedigree. You want the breeder to be there to answer questions and be supportive. Some of you want monies refunded if there is a problem but then most of you seem to understand that breeders don't make money breeding because it goes back to the dogs.

Let me throw some numbers out there....On average, it takes between $7,500-$10,000 to finish a dog's conformation Championship. This is with a handler or being an owner/breeder/handler. This would include only entry fees, hotels, travel and gas and handler fees. We then have clearances-that is roughly another $750-$1000 or more depending on what part of the country you are living in. An average stud fee is now between $1000 on the low end to $1500 on the high although I have heard of some higher. Progesterone testing is roughly $100 per test and you usually need 4-5 of them per breeding. You are sunk all this money BEFORE the bitch is ever bred. Now add in costs to drive to the stud dog owner to do natural and hotel fees or costs for fresh chilled or frozen breedings with AI's or surgicals or a trans-cervical and you are well into things for usually another $1000 or more. We now have to add in costs of feeding mom-did you realize a mom feeding a litter of 6-8 puppies at 5 weeks old is eating 10 plus cups of food a day? We also have vet checks for mom and babies and shots and hopefully not a c-section as that is usually another $1000-1500. We did a breeding last year that resulted in the bitch not getting pregnant and that cost us almost $4000 to not get her pregnant. But that happens

Now you all want the breeder to be receptive to your problems, questions, concerns....let's say that breeder has been breeding for 10 plus years and has a few litters of puppies every year. In 10 years, at 6 puppies in a litter, that is 180 puppies and puppy families. Most of us do have families....I am married and have 2 children still at home. A son who is a sophomore in college and a daughter that we adopted who is now in Kindergarten. You all have also stated that you don't want to be told that you did A, B, or C that potentially led to your puppy having a problem. How do you approach the breeder?? Are you casting stones at them and are you angry and upset?? If you are, and I am not saying you should not be...maybe give it a couple days to sink in so that you can talk without casting stones? We all also have bad days...if you call once and don't get a reply, please don't automatically assume that the breeder could care less. Please try to contact them again. We are often out of town for dog shows, doing breedings, working or just dealing with other household issues. 

It is in my contract that I am to be contacted if there is a problem with the dog or puppy and yes, I do want to know. I explain to people that while I or a friend may be keeping a puppy, that is not a clear picture of the litter because most of the puppies will begoing to be family companions. I also tell people I will be as involved or uninvolved as they would like me to be. Some people I hear from quite often and others only a couple times a year-whatever the comfort level is fine. But, you do have to have a working relationship with this person that is your breeder so please don't get a puppy from someone you do not feel comfortable with for ANY reason. Read the contract and have things in your mind UP FRONT about what your expectations will be, if there is a problem. This will save everyone a lot of stress down the road, IF the puppy does develop a problem. 

There are MANY breeders who have been breeding for a lot of years that are no longer breeding anymore. It is not popular to be a breeder these days with the Animal Rights issues in our country, the costs and then the sheer number of hours that it takes to be a good breeder. It is hard work and there isn't much payoff. The number of people associated in dog activities is going down. So, if this continues to happen, where will you get your next puppy??? Please do not think I am not aware of the fact that there are good breeders and there are bad ones. I am probably more aware of that than anyone is. However, please try to remember if there is a problem that comes up.....I did not plan this breeding to hurt you. I did not do this on purpose. I am a human being who has chosen to be a breeder because I LOVE THESE DOGS. 

If you are looking for a puppy from a breeder who has never produced a FAIR hipped dog or any of the above problems, do everyone a favor and get a stuffed animal. That breeder doesn't exist-the person simply hasn't been breeding long enough for issues to have cropped up or they are not being truthful with you. Doing your research is a good thing. Absolutely check clearances, visit the breeder, talk with them, ask to the the contract they use and any other questions you have but please also be reasonable. Don't go on a witch hunt....you are only harming yourself because the perfect breeder doesn't exist any more than the tooth fairy does. Yes, there are lots of good ones out there-perfect, NO!

Sorry this post got to be so long and I hope you can understand some thoughts from the other side of the fence)


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks for taking the care and time to write such a thoughtful post from a breeder's viewpoint. This forum has complimented your dogs and your supportive interpersonal style in the past, and it is so valuable to hear from you!


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## AuburnGold (Jan 3, 2011)

*Our Own Simba From Jennifer Masterson*



Debles said:


> What is on a contract and what is ethical and moral can be two totally different things.
> As I already stated in my earlier post, maybe the breeder isn't legally obligated to pay but what kind of ethical breeder doesn't care about the ongoing health of one of their pups? and doesn't even want to know about it !
> Not one I would be interested in. They are no better than a puppy mill to me. As Marty's Mom said: JMO.


Yes our family also bought a Golden Retriever from Jennifer and named him Simba and we are happy to report that he is in great health. I am responding to this quote which suggests that Jennifer is not ethical because it is completely out of line and is an insult to Jennifer's true character. As previous posts have stated this post doesn't have Jennifer's side to this story. 

Here is the Jennifer I know. When I approached Jennifer about a puppy for my daughters to show in Junior Showmanship she went out of her way to help us find our Simba and has helped us every step of the way when we have had questions about his health and care. 

Jennifer has also taken the time to teach my daughters the importance of ethics and business contracts related to dog ownership to ensure that there are no misunderstandings amoungst breeders and owners. Jennifer made if very clear to us that she has done her best to breed puppies that have the best chance to be healthy but that she could not be certain that our Simba would be healthy and spelled that our in her contracts. We accepted this risk with full disclosure when we bought our Simba from her. 

An while it is sometime difficult to reach Jennifer due to her busy life she always make it a point to get back to us and we appreciate that very much. 

Unless you know Jennifer you should not be pilling on here trying someone you don't know in the court of public opinion. It is simply not fair nor ethical.


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