# Let's say I wanted to run a Derby...



## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Gosh, I feel like I haven't been on in a while. Crazy weekend at the hospital. Night shifts suck because you lose the night for work and the day to sleeping. Haven't gotten to do any training either. 

Anyway, I have been toying with the idea of trying to run Riot in a Derby in May. He will be 2 in July. May is the latest one that is around here because it gets too hot. But I don't know. I'm scared. I don't know if he can do a 400 yds mark. Also, he hasn't been through swim-by. I just don't want to rush if it will hurt us in the long run. But then again, I think he can do it, and I think it would be fun, because I love competition. Who knows if we will ever get to the point of running Q blinds. 

I know I would need to work more long and multiple marks. Has anyone here ran the Derby? Am I being too ambitious?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Of course, I haven't run any derbys, but if you decide to do it, I'll root my dern fool arse off for you two!

Too bad Randy isn't still on here, he has run them. I hope you get the information you look for. Maybe ask on RTF?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Can't speak from first hand experience of running a derby but having watched quite a few the impression that strikes me is these are dogs who are well into handling and have HUGE water experience. Personally I don't know how amateurs can fit in all the training before the dog turns two, other than training every day with a group and having a very precocious dog!


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Can't speak from first hand experience of running a derby but having watched quite a few the impression that strikes me is these are dogs who are well into handling and have HUGE water experience. Personally I don't know how amateurs can fit in all the training before the dog turns two, other than training every day with a group and having a very precocious dog!


OK, that was kind of what I was wondering. I agree on the trouble of getting all that training into 2 years. I wish they had an Amateur Derby for dogs over 2....


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

suggest you send a PM to Radarsdad...


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

Derbies are fun. You should give it a try. Good judges will not set up a test with cheaty marks in a derby. 
The first two series will be on land. The marks can be long but most dogs don't seem to know the difference between 100 yards and 300 yards when you have a stand out gun. Start working with stickmen at your wingers. The most important time is at the line. You need your dog to look out for the gunners in the field when you point them out. Take your time to make sure Riot has a good look at each gun station. HAVE FUN!! 
Don't be scared, even the best dogs have bad days.
Jim


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

If you are in Chapel Hill and talking May, you are probably thinking Blue Ridge. That is a pretty good club and welcoming of newcomers. I would definitely consider Tidewater in Emporia in April since it is the same. Unfortunately NETN doesn't have a derby at the Spring trial because they are great also.

In a derby you can see marks that are as long as all age marks but with the grounds on this circuit at that time of year, it is unlikely. But you should stretch the dog out.

As Marsh Mop has stated, good judges will not set up cheaty marks in a derby but my experience is that they may have different views on cheaty. The last series is likely to be cheaty. If not it will certainly have multiple re-entries. Most dogs will be very water honest--either by instinct or training (or both) and certainly the winner will have been de-cheated.

But that should not worry you if you want to try. If you get to the third or fourth and think that in the long run it would be best not to run the marks, you can always pick your dog up. Even if not, I don't think a lot of damage can be done with at most two cheaty setups.

The derby is a strange animal. There are always a number of folks running just because someone told them that their young critter was a good marker and should be entered in a derby (that was me my first time and it was my first FT ever) and a lot of pros and serious amateurs chasing the derby list. A lot of folks will be running on Friday and leaving to run another derby on Saturday even. Still the judges are always very welcoming to noobs and most clubs are. The derby is a blast to watch because of the enthusiasm of the young dogs.

Give it a shot. You can't do worse than my first try at a derby. Be careful though, you might get hooked on FTs. One good thing is that even if you are dog number one, you will not run first!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

He can do 400 yd marks. You just have to stretch him out there. Cheating on marks is a big thing. Not so much in Hunt Test. Also backsiding a gun station is pretty much the kiss of death. Long water entries and swims need to be taught. Cheating a water mark can be graded on how and where the dog enters the water and exits also. Best to go ahead and run open marks and teach like I am doing with Gunner. They are picking the dogs with the best performance not pass or fail. They are fun go for it.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Tatnall said:


> If you are in Chapel Hill and talking May, you are probably thinking Blue Ridge. That is a pretty good club and welcoming of newcomers. I would definitely consider Tidewater in Emporia in April since it is the same. Unfortunately NETN doesn't have a derby at the Spring trial because they are great also.
> ..........
> Give it a shot. You can't do worse than my first try at a derby. Be careful though, you might get hooked on FTs. One good thing is that even if you are dog number one, you will not run first!


Yeah, I am looking at Blue Ridge. I'm glad to hear that they are a good club. I was thinking of Tidewater, but I will still be in school and I'm not sure if I will be able to get there. I love the fact that everyone registers for FTs so late, so I can figure out my schedule before it closes. 

I really appreciate all the advise. After I posted, I said to myself. "this is such a silly idea..." but gosh, you guys make it sound like I could do it.  I need to stretch him out, obviously. And we need to work on multiples. 

Radarsdad: when you say "backsliding the gun," is that the same thing as hooking a gun? 

Thanks again all. I have a bit to think on it, so who knows...


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

mlopez said:


> Radarsdad: when you say "backsliding the gun," is that the same thing as hooking a gun?


It is the same thing. I would not worry about it enough to put pressure on him to stop it, if he does it.

A dog that goes behind the gun and right to the bird *should* be scored the same as one who doesn't. They both marked the bird. The reality is that with all the good dogs judges do use that to separate dogs, though. That is why we teach them not to do that. But I would not worry about it too much at this point.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

mlopez said:


> Radarsdad: when you say "backsliding the gun," is that the same thing as hooking a gun?
> 
> Thanks again all. I have a bit to think on it, so who knows...


No, not necessarily. Two things happen when your dog backsides a gun. One is that he stays back there and establishes a hunt...out of the fall area. Essentially, that's all for that dog.

The other is hooking it; simply taking a line to the backside, but recovering into the fall area having only passed by the back of the gun. As a judge I've placed dogs that backsided, but marked well, as long as it wasn't chronic.

I've put dozens of dogs on the national derby list, so I'm very familiar with what it takes to win. Distance is no big trick. Bird placement, de-cheating, de-switching, and tight concept marks ARE a big deal. Over half of any derby field of dogs will already be skilled at those things, so the real competition comes down to talent and experience.

I'm not keen on advising someone to just "go for it"! If you don't mind setting a dog up for failure, by all means go for it. If you are more cautious, do the prep, read your dog, and try to get an assessment from someone who has been there, and then make your decision about entering. You may be more ready than you think. But try to find a voice of experience to help you make a wise decision. This isn't a hunt test. Field trials are fun, but unforgiving.

EvanG


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

EvanG said:


> I'm not keen on advising someone to just "go for it"! If you don't mind setting a dog up for failure, by all means go for it. If you are more cautious, do the prep, read your dog, and try to get an assessment from someone who has been there, and then make your decision about entering. You may be more ready than you think. But try to find a voice of experience to help you make a wise decision. This isn't a hunt test. Field trials are fun, but unforgiving.


As someone who 'just went for it' on the advice of a FT friend to give it a whirl, I think you are overreacting a little bit.

What is the worst that could happen? The dog doesn't pick up both birds in the first series--even then most judges will let the BB help.

First Derby, I was so green I didn't know how to show the guns to the dog and my dog went down on the first series after a tweetie bird flushed and took him out of the zone enough that he started heading to old fall. Got the memory bird boy to help and he picked up the bird. Next week, second derby. I was now an experienced FT guy since I had gotten 2nd in the qual the previous week with my older dog. Barely made it through the first three series. Last series, dog started to cheat the water mark. Tweet! No! Here! and thank the judges.

How bad could it be?

On the plus side a friend decided to run his young HT dog in a derby just to see what happened. The dog got a placement. Some folks talked him to sending him to a pro to bring out her talent. The pro got her on the derby list and QAA before she aged out. She is still on the pro's truck, just starting to run AA stuff and he told me that he thinks that dog has the most talent on the truck. And this is a guy who was top 3 in AA points and points per entry in 2011 and took (I think) 7 dogs to the national.

Worst thing that could happen is that you win or otherwise get addicted to running FTs like I did.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Tatnall said:


> As someone who 'just went for it' on the advice of a FT friend to give it a whirl, I think you are overreacting a little bit





Tatnall said:


> What is the worst that could happen? The dog doesn't pick up both birds in the first series--even then most judges will let the BB help.


As a pro who had to clean up what many first timers who ‘went for it’ had happen to them, I think your experiences cast a rosy picture of what _could_ be the worst. I’m happy to see what happened for you because it was _*not*_ the worst that could happen. There are more variables than one in determining what the worst could be. Your case was quite mild, and certainly inadequate in preparing a new field trail handler for what may happen.

Indeed, it may all turn out just fine; no harm no foul. Then again, some of those other variables might show up.


Tatnall said:


> First Derby, I was so green I didn't know how to show the guns to the dog and my dog went down on the first series after a tweetie bird flushed and took him out of the zone enough that he started heading to old fall. Got the memory bird boy to help and he picked up the bird.


And depending on the dog, the unintended diversion may have happened, or been handled very differently due to the dog, the judges, the more typical bird boy, or any of a number of other variables. If you’ve had your hands on enough fuel-injected, turbo-charged field trial bred dogs – especially at derby age, you know that there may be no time for a more typical teenager, inattentive bird boy or girl to help so the seed of a bad habit might keep from being planted that your pro now has to undo. What separates those things from happening? Seconds...and luck.

Not _all_ dogs are forgiving about that. We’re not talking about a dog that is even ready for it yet, but rather one that will still need lots of preparation to get up to speed just to work at that scale. How much time is there for that? How much more time is there for that dog to gain enough experience to deal with a mishap if it happens? It goes on. But I’ve been the trainer who cleaned up those messes, and for otherwise good dogs.

I’m glad things went well for you. But not everyone is you. Have you seen the dog in question? Do you know how this dog reacts to adversity or unexpected distractions in the field? Neither do I. That’s why I suggest she not only continue to train for that higher level of work, but also to get a 1:1 assessment of her dog by someone who knows the ropes from experience before sticking it in a field trial. Err on the side of caution…for the dog’s sake, if not your own.

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Marie, the Dahl's would certainly be able to advise you on whether Riot is prepared for the demands of a Derby. I would ask them what they think about his progress the next time you are out training.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

EvanG said:


> I’m glad things went well for you. But not everyone is you. Have you seen the dog in question? Do you know how this dog reacts to adversity or unexpected distractions in the field? Neither do I. That’s why I suggest she not only continue to train for that higher level of work, but also to get a 1:1 assessment of her dog by someone who knows the ropes from experience before sticking it in a field trial. Err on the side of caution…for the dog’s sake, if not your own.
> 
> EvanG


I certainly don't disagree with getting advice from folks who have experience running FTs (the dahl's would certainly be able to say).

I think we will never agree on the bigger issue generically. I see it all the time on RTF as well. Someone asks about the derby and folks make out like it is this super secret club that only pro trained dogs who are ready for AA work can join. It is not--although those may be the ones that are going to win. It is a minor stake and I can't think of anything that can happen at a derby that couldn't happen just as easily with an ill-conceived training setup. 

Just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth.

PS, while we are at it, if you have a good MH level dog, there is no reason you could not step up and run a Q.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I had intentions of running Slater in the derby, but he was not confident enough on long water memory birds. My fear was showing up to a test where they had some 300 yd memory bird on the water and he would get completely lost. The last thing I want is failure on something like that. So I decided not to do it. The land he could have done.

I will say this, make running a Qual your goal, with a good master dog you can do it. Field trials are FUN. Guess what, people are friendly and encouraging (so long as you're not winning! HAHAHAHAHA). They are welcoming and like to see good dog work. The qual has no age limit so no need to press yourself into a time frame for it. In the long run it means more anyhow.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I would seek the advice of a *successful* pro or amateur. If you don't get your feet wet and run even if you don't win you will not learn what you need to be training for. I would defer to the Dahl's opinion. Furthermore you will not learn from any mistakes you make in running your dog. Could give you a idea of where you and your dog are.
Yeah, I go for it. Shows me where our weaknesses are. Then train for it.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I had intentions of running Slater in the derby, but he was not confident enough on long water memory birds. My fear was showing up to a test where they had some 300 yd memory bird on the water and he would get completely lost. The last thing I want is failure on something like that. So I decided not to do it. The land he could have done.
> 
> I will say this, make running a Qual your goal, with a good master dog you can do it. Field trials are FUN. Guess what, people are friendly and encouraging (so long as you're not winning! HAHAHAHAHA). They are welcoming and like to see good dog work. The qual has no age limit so no need to press yourself into a time frame for it. In the long run it means more anyhow.


Quals are by far the most fun. There will only be one or two pros and full time amateurs looking for that one first or second and the rest will be newer folks or older folks who like to run trials but don't have the dog for the AA stakes. Much more laid back and they finish in a day usually. Just don't go winning two of them too early though 

With my current young critter who is now 3, we would enter him in the Q every trial last year. He wasn't ready for the water marks or water blind and unless the land blind was straight forward no good could come from running it. But, he could do the marks and I couldn't leave him on the truck all weekend while running the other dogs in the AA stakes. So we would run the land series and when we got called back we would just scratch.

FT folks are very welcoming. They get the reputation for being aloof but I think that is just because it is a much smaller group and they know everyone from the circuit and catch up with them. Once you get to know one or two they really welcome you and try to help. My wife who was new to it all when she met me and completely unbiased likes FT folks better than HT folks in general.


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