# Trouble training the stubborn 10 month old



## Saphira

Dakota is a 10 month old GR, intact though we plan to get him neutered. We're hoping to wait until he is 2 so that he is fully grown. I am trying very hard not to get frustrated. We have no trainers within several hours of here, and I'm hoping to be the first one! But my stubborn pup is making me question that ambition!

We work at the commands several times a day, usually with treats (that only get him so excited that he won't pay attention to what I am saying, he is all for the treats.) We are working on sit (he only has about 20% accuracy), lie down (has never managed to do it), and stay. The stays and waits are what he seems to be good at, although he will avert his head and often try to run off, usually into his kennel. I take that as a sign that he has had enough, but often that is the first thing he does! 

So I started training on a lead, hoping that it would improve, and he hasn't. Meanwhile, I have an elderly dog who is 100% trained, and a 4 month old GR puppy who is learning sits, stays, and downs very easily. 

Does anyone have any insight on how I can make training a more positive and fruitful experience for Dakota? I dream of doing agility with him, not will never get it off the ground if he won't even sit!

Thanks for your time!


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## Scarletts_Daddy

Are you teaching him verbal or hand signals? have you tried to use your elder dog as an example for the 10 month old? When you're working with him are you able to control your own frustration with him not understanding what you expect of him. I've had the worst time with this. Our trainer and my wife have to work with me more than Scarlett. It's just a few thoughts that popped into my head reading your post. 

- Brandon


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## Auenk9

You didn't say where you are working with him. ?? A distraction free environment is the best for "teaching" an exercise. If you have a quiet place in your home, away from the hustle and bustle of things, that would be the best area to start in. Work ONE thing at a time.


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## Saphira

I am teaching the palm upright signal for stay, and he responds well to it, but I am not sure of what signals to use for sit or down. As it is, I ask once and then physically put him in a sit, or tug his front legs out in front of him until he is lying down, then praise him. I try not to praise too much if I have to physically put him in position. If he darts away or starts to get out of position I give a really loud "Ahh!" and put him back into position. The problem is, he won't get into position by himself, after several weeks of working with it.


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## Saphira

Auenk9 said:


> You didn't say where you are working with him. ?? A distraction free environment is the best for "teaching" an exercise. If you have a quiet place in your home, away from the hustle and bustle of things, that would be the best area to start in. Work ONE thing at a time.


I am trying not to get frustrated, which is why our sessions don't usually last more than a few minutes. I put the other 2 in another room, and work with him in the living room where it is quiet.


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## Auenk9

Okay....hmmmm. If he is getting all crazied-up about the treats....try simply ignoring him until he settles down. Have him on lead so he can't just "check out" (leave you)....but don't give in to his craziness. As SOON as his BUTT or at least all 4 feet hit the floor and he is quiet...tell him good dog and give him a treat. Make him come to realize that that he won't get anything until he controls himself. 

Without seeing exactly what you are doing it is difficult to diagnose. Keep the treats down at his level for one thing (when you are teaching). If he is jumping up all over the place it may be because you are holding the treats too high.....but again...he needs to learn nothing is going to happen until he settles down and if he is that rambunctious....that in and of itself may take a few days.


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## jac

Dylan is 10 months old too. I taught him to sit by holding a sausage in the air to get his attention,then I would call him to me. When he came I would hold the sausage to his nose but not let him have it, instead I would raise it back into the air, this made him lift his head to look for the sausage, as he looked up I would say "sit" and push on his bottom with my free hand. When he sat I made a big fuss of him and gave him the sausage.

Today we were out running in the field when I saw a tractor coming, Dylan was on the other side of the field so I raised my arm and called his name, when he looked I lowered my arm and he came running as fast as he could, when he got to me I lowered my arm and said sit, which he did straight away. Hand signals really work!


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## Auenk9

One thing you do need to do is be very consistent in what and how you are teaching him. If he is sitting nicely....and queitly....and you want to teach the down....stand in front of him...with a treat in your hand....let him snuffle (sniff) it...and then lower it down to the floor but keep it right at his nose. His nose should follow your hand down and in turn his body should go into a down. As he is going down....you can issue the down command but at this point so early in the game, it won't really mean anything. However, if you keep saying it as he is going down....sooner or later it will.
Clear as mud?


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## Auenk9

The key is keeping the treat by the dog's nose/mouth area so that they "follow" the treat. Where their head goes....their body has to follow!


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## Ljilly28

Is Dakota getting plenty of off leash running/playing at other times of day? 
Auenk9 is giving you great advice- to reward a focused attitude before even trying "sit". I always ask our dogs "Do you want to play?" before we go to work on obedience. This is more for me than them, to remember to make training fun for the dogs and to let them succeed at every turn. Even good eye contact from Dakota is excellent and worth your praise. Play some attention games with him-like toss a tiny piece of treat while saying , Dakota FIND. When he comes back to you after eating the treat you threw,wait for him to make eye contact and reward it. It helps to use a clicker or have a "magic" word to tell the dog right away when he is correct. We use "yes" as that word, and do sometimes use a clicker to teach something new. It is important to get information to the dog with very good timing. The first step is to connect the clicker sound/ the word with great treats. Click/treat, click /treat until the sound becomes instantly rewarding for the dog. Once Dakota knows a sound that signifies he is doing the right thing, lure him into a sit with a treat rather than force him, and click the instant his butt touches the floor, following through with his reward. If he sits on his own, click that too. Once he has the idea that sitting will be rewarded and starts offering you sits, you can give it the word "sit "and a signal. I would work on one thing at a time. Dakota will learn how to learn, as well as how to sit and it will get easier to communicate with him.


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## Auenk9

Great advice from Ljilly28 too with regard to the clicker! While I am not a clicker trainer...I have used it to teach a few things over the years. And she also brought up my next thought! If Dakota is a "high" energy type dog you may need to semi-tire him out before he can calm down enough to learn! Sounds contradictory...but a lot of goldens that I have come across in my lifetime....need to have a few bumpers or tennis balls thrown to take the "edge" off prior to doing any serious training. 

When I was just starting out in competitive obedience.....the one thing that I did so was read, read, read......which also meant purchasing training books...but I feel it has paid off. I take this and that from various trainers....and find what methods works best for the dog! I mentioned in another thread the book entitled Competition Obedience: A Balancing Act. By Adele Yunck and the late Judy Byron. This is an excellent book ....gives a balanced approach to teaching all the exercises. Very easy to read and understand. Another good book for learning how dogs learn is Smart Trainers Brilliant Dogs by Janet R Lewis. I think both could be found at via www.dogwise.com


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## Ljilly28

Thanks for the book recommendation! I just ordered it on Amazon- only a few copies there so I feel lucky to get one. My grandfather had me reading Winifred Strickland when I was a kid ,but though times&training methods have changed, the chemistry between a dog and a human working together is as beautiful as ever.


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## Saphira

Thanks for the advice. I have tried the treat from his nose straight to the ground, but he will lower his head, and then lose interest. He is so unfocused, we joke that he has doggy ADD. I guess I'm getting discouraged because it has been weeks since we started, and he really doesn't seem to be 'getting it'. Today I took him to the ball park and threw a bumper for him, and while he chases it euthestically, he absolutely will not retrieve it. Instead he runs to me, wagging his tail as if to say "Did you see how fast I ran?" LOL gotta love him, except when he drives me crazy!


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## Lucky's mom

He sounds like he needs to run and run before any training sessions. These big pups are just overblown with energy.


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## Auenk9

How about toys? Does he have a favorite toy? Like a tennis ball? I use treats and tennis balls to motivate and reward. My boy CJ loves his TBall more than any treats!


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## Ljilly28

I do think it will snowball in a positive direction if you can teach him the joys of cause and effects. Training should be in an upbeat, cheery,positive tone and set up in such a way that he cannot fail. I would buy a clicker, and even just wait for him to sit on his own, click and give him treats. Anything to give you a sense that Dakota can learn and him a sense of trust in your teaching. It easy to make a self-fulfilling prophecy with dogs and horses. Try to focus on what he is doing right.


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## LibertyME

When I catch myself thinking 'gosh he is stubborn' or hear others say 'my dog is so stubborn' - it is like a neon sign saying "look in the mirror, not down the leash"...
The message is not clear enough for that particular dog....

A big part of the picture is to be very, very patient...with no emotion while you are watiing (no sighing - no 'come on your just being stubborn' thoughts rumbling through your head - no other signals of frustration) --Dont chant sit-sit-sit (or donw-down-down) or touch his butt or pull on his paws... All of the above are just making the 'cause and effect' muddy and confusing...
Just be patient and wait ..... 

If you stand there (or sit in a chair) with him leashed to you in a space with little distractions...EVENTUALLY he will sit (it may take 40 minutes LOL) - When he sits (click if you have one...) or tell him YES! Then offer a reward (either a treat or some petting and belly rubs...) 


Then stand there again and just wait....promise if it took 40 minutes the first time it will take less the second time....for some it may be 35 minutes, but it will be less! <grin>

Adolescent dogs are similar to adolescent kids....hormones are coursing through their bodies....they are full of life...curious and 'looking for action'...
To ask them to 'study' seems to be crazy-talk!
But as anyone that has sucessfully raised teenagers knows...the less you talk and the more 'clear' the cause and effect, the easier it is to live with them!


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## Golden River of Dreams

Do you feed him in his crate? When ever I get my puppies food out he wants to run right into his crate, because that is how he had been fed before I got him at 6 months. I would try luring him into a sit then phasing it out as though you have a treat in your hand but then the treat comes from your other hand, pocket or table. You can pair the the treat with slight upward pressure on the collar so that you have a backup to put him back without pushing him into a sit position. Dogs naturally will fight being pushed or pulled into a position, but you can teach them how to respond correctly to pressure and that it is a good thing. 

If you are having trouble with your doing being food motivated you can use a lesser value food treat or different type of reward, such as a toy, praise etc, just make sure it is something your puppy wants. For example when your puppy comes for attention tell him to sit. Don't work on sit ten times in a row for petting because your puppy may decide that it is not worth it. You can also practice sit and wait in position for his food. Have your puppy sit and start to put the food dish down and tell him to stay/wait. If he breaks just pick it back up. Repeat until it is on the floor and you give him his okay/release command. You might need to keep him on leash for this exercise. You can also put treats in your hand, on your lap and your puppy gets them once he leaves them alone, then when he leaves them alone and looks at you, etc.


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## Megora

Saphira said:


> Dakota is a 10 month old GR, intact though we plan to get him neutered. We're hoping to wait until he is 2 so that he is fully grown. I am trying very hard not to get frustrated. We have no trainers within several hours of here, and I'm hoping to be the first one! But my stubborn pup is making me question that ambition!
> 
> We work at the commands several times a day, usually with treats (that only get him so excited that he won't pay attention to what I am saying, he is all for the treats.) We are working on sit (he only has about 20% accuracy), lie down (has never managed to do it), and stay. The stays and waits are what he seems to be good at, although he will avert his head and often try to run off, usually into his kennel. I take that as a sign that he has had enough, but often that is the first thing he does!
> 
> So I started training on a lead, hoping that it would improve, and he hasn't. Meanwhile, I have an elderly dog who is 100% trained, and a 4 month old GR puppy who is learning sits, stays, and downs very easily.
> 
> Does anyone have any insight on how I can make training a more positive and fruitful experience for Dakota? I dream of doing agility with him, not will never get it off the ground if he won't even sit!
> 
> Thanks for your time!


The key is PLAY, not TRAIN.  

And take it one step at a time. 

Sit = Tell the dog "SIT" (happy voice, not angry/whiny/impatient) while you have the treat and leash in right hand doing an upward tug while the left hand goes to the dog's rear and gently pushes down. Soon as butt hits the floor, the dog gets a "YES" (or click from the clicker if you are clicker training) and give the treat. You do three of these in a row at random points during the day for a week. No more than three sessions a day. Less if you start getting results. You do not want to overtrain.

As soon as you have him anticipating your verbal command and dropping his butt when he sees the leash and treat in your right hand, then you move on to the next step. Leave off the hand and try to wean off the upward tug on the leash.

As soon as he's off the tug on the leash and sitting on verbal command alone, then you can start fussing about getting perfect sits. 

If you have a hallway in your house where you can go up and down and wedge the dog between you and the wall. Leave enough room for him to sit. This forces him to sit perfectly straight each time. 

Again, take it one step at a time. Build your groundwork first.

Downs should be handled the same way. One step at a time, but remember you get to do hand signals in the end unlike the sits. 

Step 1. Put the dog in a sit. Take the treat in your right hand, put your left hand on your dog's shoulders. Put the treat between his legs and say down. The dog will automatically drop to the floor to get the treat, if he doesn't immediately know what you want, you can always press gently on his shoulders and encourage him to go down. As soon as he does you say "YES" (or click) and give him the treat. And immediately release. <- Do only three of these in a training session.

Step 2. Do the above, but try to get a longer down before you give the treat and say "YES". 

Step 3. Do the above, but start to hide the treat behind your thumb when you drop your hand down between his legs. This is the beginning of your hand signal. 

Step 4. Do the above, but start to jackpot the treats. Sometimes you have them in your hand. Sometimes not. It keeps your dog's attention on your hand when you give that 'down' signal. 

Don't try to rush it and don't get impatient. 

From what I've experience with my goldens two things are really important:

1. Repetition BORES them. Once a golden is bored, that's when he starts acting up or ignoring you. That's why you want to keep training sessions short and mix them up. Try to keep your training sessions as special as your evening walk. It will get to a point where you say "Wanna train?" and his face will brighten up. 

2. Goldens do not like to work. They like to play. If you keep your voice happy and act like you do when you are throwing tennis balls or whatever. They should have fun. 

Something else to consider - If you want to get your dog into agility, there are little things you can be doing right now to mix the training up and give him something "fun" and different to look forward to after you do the dreaded sits and downs. 

Talk to your teacher about building your own weaves (or you can buy them too, I guess). This will help the obedience training because it forces your dog to slow down and pay attention. 

Remember to have fun. 

ETA - Hand signal for the down = hold your right hand out and sweep downward


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## inge

The thread is 1 1/2 year old, I'm sure Dakota is doing fine now...


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## Megora

inge said:


> The thread is 1 1/2 year old, I'm sure Dakota is doing fine now...


Whoops<: 

I'm new and keep forgetting to look at the dates on the entries when I see a topic pop up in the update threads on the front page. That is the second time I've done that already since joining yesterday. :doh:


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## inge

I'm sure there are other puppy owners that benefit from your advice! You are very thorough!


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## FlyingQuizini

Saphira said:


> I am teaching the palm upright signal for stay, and he responds well to it, but I am not sure of what signals to use for sit or down. As it is, I ask once and then physically put him in a sit, or tug his front legs out in front of him until he is lying down, then praise him. I try not to praise too much if I have to physically put him in position. If he darts away or starts to get out of position I give a really loud "Ahh!" and put him back into position. The problem is, he won't get into position by himself, after several weeks of working with it.


Those techniques don't sound all that enjoyable, which might be why he keeps trying to leave. What about this:

Leash him up in a quiet area. Get treats - like a piece of hotdog. Hold it in your hand so he can smell it but not manage to steal it from you. Put your hotdog hand on his nose while he's standing and use it to guide his head upward so that he's looking at the sky. Keep your hand on his nose as you do this. Eventually gravity takes over and his butt should hit the floor. THAT'S when you give him the hot dog. If he's having trouble, don't even use the word "sit" yet. Just let the hotdog do the work until you can quickly use it to get the sit. Once it's quick, then start to sit just before you guide with food.

For down, start in a sit (so you'll need a "sit" first), hold the food at his nose and slowly lower your food hand to the ground right in front of him. Make sure his nose is following the food. Once your hand is on the ground, slowly move it away from him. If he stands up at this point, ask for a sit again and start over.

The turning away and wanting to run to the kennel sounds like avoidance. It may be that he's very anxious in general or has become anxious about training, in which case it's important that we build his confidence.


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