# Questions about field classes



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hmmm. This is a tough question to answer. When you're training your first dog -- you don't have methods. You have ideas and theories and a lot of questions. It's hard for that to stack up against years of experience from your instructor. Certainly some people are heavy with the collar to the point of being unfair, so I'm not doubting or defending that having not seen it. Then again, there ARE times in training a finished retriever that the collar is used frequently or at a higher level than many are comfortable with. The alternative is nagging the dog forever with ineffective corrections and never getting any progress. You may be missing out on exactly the training you need if you don't follow the instructor's advice. It's a toss up -- yes you have to be your dog's best advocate, but you need to be open to advice backed up with experience.

The only other thing that stuck out to me from your post was this:

"This summer I stuck to retrieves and just the occasional FTP training."

FTP is a transitional step that should be completed in days to weeks. If you are dragging it out over months you're doing something wrong. It shouldn't be "occasional." It should be every day until you've got it. The dog will never connect the dots and progress with haphazard training on this very very important step.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

My gut feeling is that you won't be happy.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Stacey, could you refresh my memory? Do you have a training group? What kind of people/dogs are in the group? Is there a group leader? Group leader's experience?


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

George,
no group leader. We hang out and pretty much focus on retrieves. When our group first started out we did have one experienced FT person, but she's busy caring for a sick relative and hasn't been involved for a long time.

So when I work on anything beyond retrieves, it's by myself, except for the classes I took last winter. I guess you could say I'm just plain stuck. Lucy does wonderful marks at nice long distances. She's honest and true when she runs and she's honest in the water also. We have not done swim by or decheating in water. We have also not attempted pile work in water. But we're frozen up now until May or June.

Anney,
Good points, you are right, sporadic training is not the best and can probably create some additional problems.

This particular pro has said he uses Mike Lardy. I do have Lardy's DVD's. This particular pro has said he would work one on one with people outside of class. I do know this pro as a person and I get along with him just fine, he's not offensive or full of testosterone. He's a decent guy. He is a lab guy though and I know labs can take a lot more pressure than a golden. 

Anney,
You're right, training your first dog is really hard. You don't know what you need and when you need it. It's all confusing. Basically I'd like to go as far with Lucy as she is capable of, I don't want to be holding her back.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska,

For the dark days of Alaskan winter, what are your other options with regard to field training?

It sounds like you trust the trainer ... and are comfortable disagreeing with him should you feel that his advice is contrary to your or Lucy's interests. That sounds fine to me. And if he follows Lardy, you can see where he's headed and why, so that helps.

Now as for the comment about Labs' ability to take more pressure than Goldens ... hmmm, we'll have to talk about that. Remember that big water blind in S.C. ... there was a significant amount of pressure used on one of the pups that I ran ... we got through it ... he still loved me. The ability to handle pressure is totally subjective to each dog, certainly influenced by genetics and the ground work (i.e., basics) which form the dog's training foundation. [And as for ground work and Lucy ... as Anney said, ... you need to get FTP completed and move on ... the stuff after FTP is a WHOLE lot more fun for you and the dog!!!]

FTGoldens


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Stacey, I have been training with a Pro in the way I think you are describing. 
My question to you would be is this person not just successful with dogs but also with training people. I think Winter and I have gotten to play the game because my Pro is very good at teaching me.
Be prepared that this method will take you longer. Also I had to learn not to compare my girl's progress with owners who were day training with my Pro but their dog had spent time "on the truck".


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

"This is a tough question to answer. When you're training your first dog -- you don't have methods. You have ideas and theories and a lot of questions. It's hard for that to stack up against years of experience from your instructor."

Wow! I've never heard it put this way but this is exactly how it went for me. I'm really glad to read this, it puts a lot of confusion that I went through into one sentence. After a year of working side by side 5 days a week with a pro, I wanted to do it my way, I was lucky to have that foundation from him, but I wanted to try things my way and it is hard to do it when they think their method is the only way that works. 

Stacey, I train all by myself for the most part. i will go train with my friend who is a stage ahead of me, and I will train with my clubs twice a month but for the most part I do the drills and the marks alone and then test it all out on those training days. We don't have any field or hunt classes where I'm at. Just LOTS and LOTS of pros and that is frustrating, due to the quote above. Just this past weekend, I had a pro come up to me and give me a few suggestions about what I was doing. It wasn't a technical suggestion, rather a suggestion on how I motivate Katniss. Well, I was nice and polite, but I'm tired of pros telling me what I can do better when it comes to the way I train my dog on the emotional side of things. I am all for technical, that I want the help. But as far as acting like they know my dog's personality after watching her run one time, no, I will listen and say thank you but after awhile it gets eh and I just blow that part off. I do appreciate their concern, just don't be a jerk if I don't want to take your advice. 

I cannot emphasize enough that book that Anney had suggested a while back. These drills are wonderful and give me lots of very good drills with diagrams and everything, even suggestions on what to do if your dogs aren't doing it right. I have taken Kat from simple baseball and FTP to running cold blinds all by myself with that book and I haven't even done all of the drills. It is AWESOME!!! 

Building a Retriever -- Drills and More by Carol F. Cassity Book. $24.95.


----------



## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

"This is a tough question to answer. When you're training your first dog -- you don't have methods. You have ideas and theories and a lot of questions. It's hard for that to stack up against years of experience from your instructor."

This is exactly what I'm going through right now. I have absolutely no foundation. Ella is really truly my first dog. My family had a sheltie before I got Ella, but we didn't do any sort of class with him at all.

I see being new as a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand, your starting completely fresh so you don't really have any bad habits or preferred training methods. On the other hand, because you have no experience and don't know what your doing, you have to have complete trust in the trainer to make sure that they are leading you down the right path. So if they are doing something that you are unsure of, you don't know whether it's an accepted practice/training method or something that just that particular trainer does.

For your question, if you feel comfortable with that trainer then if they are doing something different or that you don't agree with, I would discuss it with them. I'm the type where when it's something I'm somewhat familiar with, I'll listen to other's opinions and then form my own based on the information I have. If you totally disagree with it, tell the trainer that you know your own dog and their personality and that it won't work or isn't needed with your dog.

Hope this helps somewhat, even though I'm a complete newbie to this field.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Thanks for all your thoughts. As to the water blind FTGoldens mentions above, it was an epoch blind! So huge that I think you needed binoculars to see where the heck the pile of bumpers was! Gosh I think it was over 400 yards total. 250 yards down a hill, across a road, down a bank, 150 yards across a lake and up the other side to the pile of bumpers. I have no idea how anyone can communicate with a dog over such amazing vast distances. Field trials are true athletic events for dogs and an amazing way for humans and dogs to communicate!

In the Anchorage area we have 4 pros I know of, this guy being one. So I don't have a lot of possibilities for pros to work with. The other pros I've seen I would not dream of working with, when you see a dog cower in the presence of the pro, I think I'll pass. FTGoldens, you might have met this pro. He was the guy the ran the golden from Alaska to first place in the Q at golden national.

Prior to golden national I had never worked with a pro. I was able to train with FTGoldens and some others before the field trials began. When I trained I was really lucky to have a pro stand by my side and tell me everything I needed to do when I ran Lucy. So I just soaked it up. I would love to have more opportunities to work with someone like that. I think that's really what I need, that one on one help. I'm willing to go to class and see what it's like. We start this Saturday.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> Thanks for all your thoughts. As to the water blind FTGoldens mentions above, it was an epoch blind! So huge that I think you needed binoculars to see where the heck the pile of bumpers was! Gosh I think it was over 400 yards total. 250 yards down a hill, across a road, down a bank, 150 yards across a lake and up the other side to the pile of bumpers. I have no idea how anyone can communicate with a dog over such amazing vast distances. Field trials are true athletic events for dogs and an amazing way for humans and dogs to communicate!
> 
> In the Anchorage area we have 4 pros I know of, this guy being one. So I don't have a lot of possibilities for pros to work with. The other pros I've seen I would not dream of working with, when you see a dog cower in the presence of the pro, I think I'll pass. FTGoldens, you might have met this pro. He was the guy the ran the golden from Alaska to first place in the Q at golden national.
> 
> Prior to golden national I had never worked with a pro. I was able to train with FTGoldens and some others before the field trials began. When I trained I was really lucky to have a pro stand by my side and tell me everything I needed to do when I ran Lucy. So I just soaked it up. I would love to have more opportunities to work with someone like that. I think that's really what I need, that one on one help. I'm willing to go to class and see what it's like. We start this Saturday.


Four pros ... indeed your options are limited.

Regarding the dog/pro that won the Qual at the Specialty, I only watched them run one series, but the dog was happy and ran with style. While that's only one viewing, I didn't see anything at that time which would dissuade me from working with him. (Okay, well, I don't work with any pro, but if I ever considered working with a pro in Alaska, he'd be on the list.) And what the heck, if you don't like what he does or suggests ... just stop going. 

Enjoy the training! Let us know how the first session goes.

FTGoldens


----------



## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

It is a hard question. I can't add much to what the others said other than my own perspective, 2 things I would avoid:

1) one size fits all mentality - ALL dogs MUST do it THIS WAY .. you MUST do this or that
2) being unfair to the dog - e.g. correcting before they know the material, having a bad temper, being abusive, having a bad attitude .. I've heard some stories about trainers hitting dogs with equipment, swearing at them and calling them mean names etc .. yuck.

Our trainer is pretty good at reading dogs and being consistent and fair so I trust him, but there have been times he's told me to do something that I have refused.
Example, it was hot and he told me to send Gladys on more repetitions of a drill when I thought she was panting pretty hard and refused to do more
Interestingly, I've been told by 3 trainers (2 in obedience) to pull their ears or pull their hair. I said NO, NEVER, and NO!!!


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

dawn, I agree, sometimes you just have to put your foot down. I was so green before there were a few things I am ashamed that I did with Kat that my trainer insisted I do. I think that is the difference between a newbie and an experienced dog owner. I know better now.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

boomers_dawn said:


> It is a hard question. I can't add much to what the others said other than my own perspective, 2 things I would avoid:
> 
> 1) one size fits all mentality - ALL dogs MUST do it THIS WAY .. you MUST do this or that
> 2) being unfair to the dog - e.g. correcting before they know the material, having a bad temper, being abusive, having a bad attitude .. I've heard some stories about trainers hitting dogs with equipment, swearing at them and calling them mean names etc .. yuck.
> ...



Dawn
You never swore at your dog? You can release a lot of tension that way.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Went to class yesterday. 25 people signed up. That meant there were 35 people in the room since so many people brought their spouses. So they asked what kind of dog they had, age, and where they were at in training. A couple were where I'm at. Most had very young pups at 4-6 months old. So the pro decides that we are starting at leash walking since we all have holes in our programs. Week one leash walking. Week two sitting and staying. Then on from there. So I tried to stay upbeat, but at the same time I'm calculating how long it will be before we get to my level. Since it will be months, I was very disappointed. The class was supposed to be going from junior to senior, not baby puppy to learning how to retrieve. Darn.

So after class the pro asked a few of us to go train with him and some other people. So 8 of us met up. He set up a HT triple. It's 20 degrees, the wind is blowing and gorgeous out. Since I've never trained with this pro before I thought I'd watch how everyone interacted. From the conversations I was able to see that the pro trains most of the dogs in the group. People leave their dogs with him during the week, then meet up on the weekend to see how their dogs are doing. Most people didn't run their own dogs, they had the pro run their dogs that afternoon. So anyway I thought maybe I'd get some tidbits of knowledge from the pro. Maybe I did, but mostly I didn't get much. Lucy went to the line once. The pro ran all the dogs in his truck. Then I kind of figured it out. We're there to help the pro set up a triple and a blind, so the pro can run his truck load of dogs. The pro crticized how Lucy's line manners were not as perfect as the other dogs. He didn't like that I sent her on her name for the first bird, then Back on the next birds in the triple. He also criticized her overrunning the last bird. She picked up all her birds and did just fine in my book. Could she have had better line manners? Yes.

So after much thinking, I don't think I'm going to continue in with the class. There were a lot of people on the waiting list with very inexperienced dogs. So I'm going to give my spot to one of them. As for training with the pro, I don't need to drive 2 hours round trip to get that kind of training. I'll stick with my little group closer to home and my DVDs. Lucy is doing just fine. She is getting better on her whistle sits. We worked FTP yesterday and she was good. I need to set up my own training plan and schedule and stick to it. We'll get there.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Stacey

Some comments. 
It sounds like the group of people who showed up have different needs than you. 
Also, I have found that different people have different ideas about what good line manners are. What one person judges to be poor line manners may be perceived by another as quite acceptable, the dog is just raring to go.
One pet peeve I have is someone insisting that their way is superior. IMO, consistency is important, not how I send my dog.

Now some advice as to your training. I need to apologize for acting like a teacher but that is what I am. Training should be goal oriented. List some short term goals that are stepping stones for your long term goal. In teaching we might call this a Unit Plan. Your short term goals might be called Instructional Objectives. You would address any number of Instructional Objectives in your Lesson Plan (Training Session). And don't forget, all students need review.

Next, don't be afraid to think outside the box. Be creative. Years back I hired my paper boy to throw bumpers for me. You can teach how to deal with a lot of factors by running singles. And you will see how important singles are when your dog starts headswinging on multiple marks.

Next, how I evaluate trainers and training material. First, does the method agree with learning theory? Then I look for the mechanics---Is this the best way to do this? And I am certainly not afraid to say what I think is wrong.

Finally, I actually go into the field with a Lesson Plan. I do just enough. Sometimes less is more. And I keep notes on what I did, how to improve, and how my dog acted. I know, most people don't do this but then again most people are not professional teachers.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I think it sounds like you made a smart decision about the classes, that would be hard to sit through all of that when you are antsy to start the next step in Lucy's training. And with the darker days up there you have plenty of time to work on her line manners, particularly since you know it is important for senior, and honestly that is something easily done on your own. 

I have a question, do you always say back for the next marks? What do you say on FTP? Now, I'm curious to what everyone says on a double or triple? it is interesting to me to see/hear how everyone does things. I don't hear too many others say what I say, although I'm sure that people do, lol. I always say remember, and then when I see her turn her head and ears perk up, I know she is locked in and then I say Kat. When I'm doing drill I cue her with dead bird and then send her on back. I've also worked with people that don't call their dogs name at all at a mark, they send them on get it or pick it up. George is right, consistency is key, doesn't really matter about the command itself, I suppose. 

So are your goals to start senior this summer?


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

George,
I was hoping the class would give me a lesson plan and homework to do each week. I think that would happen, but it would be pretty basic. 

MOP,
I used her name when I would send her on multiple marks. Then a person last winter I was taking a class from said to use her name on the first bird, then back in the remaining birds. I use Back on FTP. So now I'm totally confused! Lucy will go on any word at the line. I don't know how many times I've just said Dog, Run, or heck that last dog's name! My dogs will run on any name, they know what to do. When it comes to blinds, we don't run them, so I'm not sure if saying Back will be a problem. When I do remeber what I'm doing, I do say their name on the first bird, and back on the second and third birds.

What do you all say on multiple marks on the second and third bird?


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

what did that pro use when he sent them? 
Kat can get jumpy at the line, I love messing with her. I will say dog or Peaches or anything other than Kat just to make sure she is listening. She'll lunge but stop herself because it isn't Kat. Occasionally, if I haven't done it in a while then she'll actually go and I'll call her back. she knows it right away too, ha ha. She likes that kind of stuff for some reason. She's always liked having her restraint tested. I practice this because when we go up to the line without her being on a lead or whatnot I don't want her to break by accident when the judge calls dog at a senior test. Peaches will break on dog, makes me nervous every time.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MoP,
I've honestly forgotten Lucy's name at the line. The judge says Dog, and I'm drawing a blank. So I say whatever I can think of. Maybe I should write my dogs names on my hands so I don't forget them! But she has been known to break at the line. Yesterday she was breaking on FTP. I don't know what that was about. She was excited and happy to fetch bumpers from the pile...?


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

LOL, Katniss revs up at drill work, she has broken before too. She seems to like it so much lately, her little tail is all swishy on the ground and she has even barked at me if I am taking too long to line her up. I think they get antsy to get out there and work!


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I send on the dog's name for marks including memory birds and "back" for blinds. 
I would stick it out and go to more training sessions with the pro. Watching him run dogs is how you learn. Consider it a privilege and part of earning your stripes. Throwing for a truck full of dogs is putting in your due time to earn line time with your own dog. Him giving his opinion on how you ran your dog is what you came for - not criticism. I'd give it another chance.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I send on the dog's name for marks including memory birds and "back" for blinds. 
I would stick it out and go to more training sessions with the pro. Watching him run dogs is how you learn. Consider it a privilege and part of earning your stripes. Throwing for a truck full of dogs is putting in your due time to earn line time with your own dog. Him giving his opinion on how you ran your dog is what you came for - not criticism. I'd give it another chance.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> MoP,
> I've honestly forgotten Lucy's name at the line. The judge says Dog, and I'm drawing a blank.


LOL, that's pretty funny!

Interestingly, at times my dogs have failed to recall their own names ... thinking that their name had been changed to "Dog!":uhoh:

FTGoldens


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

FTGoldens said:


> LOL, that's pretty funny!
> 
> Interestingly, at times my dogs have failed to recall their own names ... thinking that their name had been changed to "Dog!":uhoh:
> 
> FTGoldens


That is pretty funny too!


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anney,
I am a team player and I'm always happen to throw or shoot or whatever needs to be done while training and I don't complain either. I always bring my own stuff to supplement whatever we need to train (I have walkie talkies, bumpers, holding blind, starter pistol, birds, etc). I'm not just hanging around waiting for someone to help me out. And I always dress warm and ready to walk a lot (often I bring extra gloves and hats for anyone that gets cold). I show up early and stay until the very end. I don't offer advice, I just ask people what they need for their dog. I want everyone to succeed! I am definitely willing to help people run however many dogs they have to run. I stay positive, bring my lunch, have extra water to share, and offer my whistle when someone forgets theirs. I even bring extra chairs in case someone forgets theirs. Alaska is a very small town, we all know each other's business. We have to work together. I am not very experienced or knowledgeable and I don't claim to be. But I do want to advance with my dogs (well Lucy anyway) and have fun doing it!


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> Went to class yesterday. 25 people signed up. That meant there were 35 people in the room since so many people brought their spouses. So they asked what kind of dog they had, age, and where they were at in training. A couple were where I'm at. Most had very young pups at 4-6 months old. So the pro decides that we are starting at leash walking since we all have holes in our programs. Week one leash walking. Week two sitting and staying. Then on from there. So I tried to stay upbeat, but at the same time I'm calculating how long it will be before we get to my level. Since it will be months, I was very disappointed. The class was supposed to be going from junior to senior, not baby puppy to learning how to retrieve. Darn.
> 
> So after class the pro asked a few of us to go train with him and some other people. So 8 of us met up. He set up a HT triple. It's 20 degrees, the wind is blowing and gorgeous out. Since I've never trained with this pro before I thought I'd watch how everyone interacted. From the conversations I was able to see that the pro trains most of the dogs in the group. People leave their dogs with him during the week, then meet up on the weekend to see how their dogs are doing. Most people didn't run their own dogs, they had the pro run their dogs that afternoon. So anyway I thought maybe I'd get some tidbits of knowledge from the pro. Maybe I did, but mostly I didn't get much. Lucy went to the line once. The pro ran all the dogs in his truck. Then I kind of figured it out. We're there to help the pro set up a triple and a blind, so the pro can run his truck load of dogs. The pro crticized how Lucy's line manners were not as perfect as the other dogs. He didn't like that I sent her on her name for the first bird, then Back on the next birds in the triple. He also criticized her overrunning the last bird. She picked up all her birds and did just fine in my book. Could she have had better line manners? Yes.
> 
> So after much thinking, I don't think I'm going to continue in with the class. There were a lot of people on the waiting list with very inexperienced dogs. So I'm going to give my spot to one of them. As for training with the pro, I don't need to drive 2 hours round trip to get that kind of training. I'll stick with my little group closer to home and my DVDs. Lucy is doing just fine. She is getting better on her whistle sits. We worked FTP yesterday and she was good. I need to set up my own training plan and schedule and stick to it. We'll get there.


If you are not comfortable with this guy, be done with him. It sounds like he's a bit close-minded. And that he criticized you for the word you use to send your dog ... pure silliness. Even in light of that, if he had provided something that was actually constructive, I may have a different opinion, but that wasn't the case. And he apparently caters to his clients ... I really can't blame him for that, but there was not reason to not try to foster you as a potential future client.
And finally, his classes are too elementary for you and Lucy. You and your local group can make better use of your time.
Just my thoughts,
FTGoldens


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry about your experience. In a way I think you needed to find out anyway. I have never had a training class with a pro so I could not comment on any pro classes. 

I do train along with a pro. I throw, shoot, run the ducks to and fro, whatever it is needed. 

The pro has always been very nice and always tries to incorporate everyone who comes to training before, after and between his dogs. There were many times I just went to watch him train his dogs on blinds and pick his brain: "Why is this dog's body crooked but you still send on a blind instead of waiting until completely aligned. Why did you send this dog to the blind even though she was not even looking at what you sent her to, how did the dog know where to go since she just peeked at the bird in the cedar tree as you said BACK?" LOL, I was amazed he did not tell me to shut up and go home but instead he asked me to go get me dogs. 

 - I like to be the bird runner because I get to spend more time at the line and observe, ask questions and pick up on stuff. 

If he works the station and I run my dogs I make sure I ask him ahead of time on how to run certain marks or he tells me to re-run in a different way based on what he sees my dogs are doing.


----------



## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I also use the dogs' names on marks and back on blinds.
Our dog skool teecher says it's like a cue - your name means you go look and "back" means I'm driving! But I've seen other people do it other ways with success.

I could relate to what Anney said about the value of watching and learning from other dogs running, I think any of us who've done any amount of throwing / volunteer work can agree, but I also know the annoyed feeling of throwing for people who don't bother running their own dogs or throwing for people who mill around flapping their gums and waiting to be told what to do when, instead of getting their dogs, paying attention, being with the program etc. I guess for me it's a matter of does the benefits of this training outweight the work/aggravation. It sounds to me like you weren't getting the benefits you wanted.


----------

