# That didn't work...Does this even have merit?



## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

So I read somewhere (one of the dozens of books I have bought over the years) that one thing that you can do with your dog to kind of help get him ready for swim by is to teach the dog to swim at an angle to the shore. Supposedly this is accomplished by wading out in the water aways, throwing the bumper straight out from you and the shore, then while the dog is heading out, you walk several yards to the side. Since you are in the water, the theory is that the dog will swim to you rather than straight back to shore. In case you can't picture it (starting point is X, throw bumper/send dog to Y, you move to Z and the dog is supposed to swim there rather than straight back to the shore which is the solid line):

Y




X.........................................>Z

_____________________________________________

OK, so great theory. Didn't work so well in actuality. She swam straight back to the shore, THEN came to me!

So why even bother? Well, we are 2.5 weeks out from elbow surgery with 3.5 weeks to go. We just got the go ahead for swimming. I'm planning to wade out in the water up to my knees and send/receive her there because we are still not supposed to do any running. I also don't want her pulling herself up on shore or jumping into water that might be shallow enough for her to hit bottom. I thought this would be a fantastic exercise to work on since I already have to do 2/3 of it anyway.

So any suggestions? From what I understand, it's not advisable to use electricity while the dog is in the water. Does that apply even when the dog is blowing off a come command? What about using a long line and "make" her come (my only worry there is possibly getting the line tangled in her front legs-I spent A LOT of money on those legs!)?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

What it you were at point Z waving another bumper at her?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Or get a life jacket with a handle, wade out and hold the handle and basically let her tread water.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Wow, you're quick. I was at point Z waving to her (only brought the one bumper:doh. She would hardly even look at me (pretty focused on the shore). I will bring more bumpers tonight, but the way she looked last night, she won't bother to really look at the bumper until she makes it back to shore.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Or get a life jacket with a handle, wade out and hold the handle and basically let her tread water.


For exercise or to help with this issue (I wanted to use exercise for this too, but thought the two meanings might be confusing!)?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

IowaGold said:


> For exercise or to help with this issue (I wanted to use exercise for this too, but thought the two meanings might be confusing!)?


Sorry - that was for exercise in general, not to help the original training problem.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

IowaGold said:


> For exercise or to help with this issue (I wanted to use exercise for this too, but thought the two meanings might be confusing!)?


I'd try shortening the distance of all points of the triangle. Toss a toy that she'll go after, but doesn't really love and use one she really likes as the "waver toy" to keep her from going back to shore.

Keep in mind her endurance is probably shot from being "off" for surgery, so short distances are probably a good thing right now. She may be hell bent on going back to shore b/c she's tired. I just took my Whippet on her first post-surgery (toe amputation) hike and was shocked by how quickly she was sucking wind!

And of course, my suggestions are not based in field work at all - just how I'd handle it as a training problem so feel free to disregard if it goes against specific field work you've done!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

IowaGold said:


> Wow, you're quick. I was at point Z waving to her (only brought the one bumper:doh. She would hardly even look at me (pretty focused on the shore). I will bring more bumpers tonight, but the way she looked last night, she won't bother to really look at the bumper until she makes it back to shore.


My mentor idly swings a big white bumpers and if the dogs still ignores it, he starts twirling it .. might help


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Or... wade in a bit farther and let her return/launch from where you're at w/o getting any running leaps in.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I'd try shortening the distance of all points of the triangle. Toss a toy that she'll go after, but doesn't really love and use one she really likes as the "waver toy" to keep her from going back to shore.
> 
> Keep in mind her endurance is probably shot from being "off" for surgery, so short distances are probably a good thing right now. She may be hell bent on going back to shore b/c she's tired. I just took my Whippet on her first post-surgery (toe amputation) hike and was shocked by how quickly she was sucking wind!
> 
> And of course, my suggestions are not based in field work at all - just how I'd handle it as a training problem so feel free to disregard if it goes against specific field work you've done!


A toy? That she DOESN'T love? Hmmm. Not sure I own one of those!

I think I should try making the angle not so great. I thought it might be easier for her to see the difference if the angle was greater, but it probably is harder physically.

I'm heading out shortly fully armed with bumpers and ropes and such. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I have no idea what part of swim by this is supposed to help as every entry and exit in swim by is perpendicular to the shore. There is no angle entry in swim by.
Yes you can use electricity in water although it should be used for blatant refusals. 
I have no idea why you wouldn't just use a leash and wade along side her while she swam, trust me this doesn't look like it has much of a point concerning field work, but would be great as rehab exercise. Just put her on a leash, let her carry a bumper and lead her around as she swims.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Here's what I've been doing for angles:

I stay in the same spot, and have the bumper land close enough in that it would make no sense to the dog to do anything other than go directly to the bumper and directly back to me. Each time the bumper gets thrown a little farther out, but still on the same line. The theory is that by the time the bumper gets close enough to the shore for the dog to normally think about returning by shore, it has already established a pattern of turning around and swimming to you and it will continue to do so.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Maybe it wasn't swim by but angle entries and returns? My older dog has a terrible habit of squaring the shore then returning to me (we don't have an issue going out, it's the coming back). I'd prefer Piper NOT learn that type of behavior.

Mostly I'm just trying to do something constructive with our time. Yes we're there specifically for the swimming, but if we can do something else at the same time, why not? Besides where we are swimming is a mud bottom. I can't walk in that fast enough for her to swim with. I can barely manage the few feet to make the return angled.

It worked better today. I didn't make the angle nearly so much. It worked even better when I made sure to hit the whistle a split second before she grabbed the bumper so she turned the right way.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Had to look it up to make sure I wasn't going crazy! I mis-spoke when I said swim-by, it is more about straight line return. It is in Spencer's Drills for Marking book (p. 85ish) and a form of it is in the Dobb's Tritronics book (p. 215ish).


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Why not use a long line and reel her in?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

There are two kinds of dogs, dogs who have cheated and dogs who will cheat. You can set up the nicest "habits" in the world but they all learn to cheat.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

But don't you then teach them tools so you can control the cheating? I believe this is intended as one of the first things you can teach, so that the later drills make a bit more sense to the dog. It appears to teach the dog to not automatically assume that they are swimming back to the same spot they left from-they are to follow where you go. Isn't one of the early steps of swim by you walking down the shore casting the dog to the side?

About the line. I did try that today. I have to be very careful as I don't want it to tangle in her $$ legs! Basically it did nothing more than make her look a bit panicked (as in she doesn't really want to be pulled through the water-it's too vulnerable a position, I think). The thing that helped the most was whistling slightly early. She then knew where I was a (usually) turned toward me. When she turned toward me, she was more likely to swim to me.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Be careful about trying to do too much actual constructive training on a dog so soon post-op. If she's at all sore or tired (which I would assume could easily happen as she's regaining her endurance) you don't want her associating that uncomfortable feeling with doing the work.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Try not to jump ahead in training. Do things methodically, step by step. Get your swimby done, and then move on to doing cheating singles (the exercise where you tempt them to cheat so you can correct it!), taught channel blinds and then cold channel blinds in sequence. Swimby gives you the basic tools that you need to tell the dog to take more water rather than less when you are doing these exercises. Then you can move on to more complex cheating singles that involve things like angle entries and exits.
Until you get that done, endeavor to throw water marks that are not cheaty and make the direct return to you the easiest choice.

Here's a link to the flow chart http://www.totalretriever.com/rj/totalretPDF.pdf


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks everyone.


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