# Are all goldens.... so dense?



## Dart (Aug 5, 2013)

Hello,
I actually like many of the goldens I have met, they are sweet and goofy. The only thing that really turns me off from ever wanting to own one myself is that they all (and there are many around here) just seem so dense. I get a lot of the 'lights are on but no one is home' looks from them. I have personally lived with two goldens and a golden mix (all room mates dogs over the years) and although I can see why someone may want a dog that wants nothing more than to goof off and never learn anything (mostly) I just do not understand why everyone who owns then just states that they are soooooo smart but just a bit stubborn. 

I am sure there are exceptions to every rule and there may in fact be a golden or two who do not come across as so dense, but is it the massive amounts of inbreeding that has led to a serious decline (assuming at one point they were high intelligent as many still claim) in intelligence? Or is it careless breeding? AKCs lack of a breeding standard (besides looks...)?

Do the field bred goldens actually still retain something besides some pretty looks? I have heard the field bred ones are actually bred for working ability rather then who upholds the 'bred standard'. 

I assume some if you have experience with golden doodles, what are your thoughts on them? Besides that most people breeding them are doing so irresponsibly without health checks or regard for whether their claims of hypoallergenic and so on and so forth are actually true. Do doodles actually sometimes get the intelligence of the poodle and the temperament of the golden. I have only really ever spent time with a labradoodle, and that dog was completely insane. Just wondering if that is also true for most golden doodles.

My current dog for whatever reason, just absolutely seems to love goldens (after he has shown then he doesn't appreciate the whole 'in your face' problem many retrivers seem to have). Anyone my dog is a working bred border collie, we are currently pursuing agility and herding. If I did add another dog I would want one who could keep up and participate in sports with us. My boy has been attacked several times so he generally is weary of other dogs, with the exception to golden retrievers. So that is the reason for so many questions. I just find it so conflicting what I find while researching and what I have actually experienced.

Thank you for your time.
-Dart


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

My golden boy is very intelligent, and also very biddable. He aims to please. He learns very quickly but can be aloof and when he is done, he is done... unlike a working dog. I also have a malinois which is held in high regards in terms of intellect, and though she is very intelligent as well she learns very differently from my golden.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Most of the top competitive obedience dogs are goldens. A golden with true golden temperament is highly biddable and therefore very trainable. Of course, where you get your golden from also makes a difference. A backyard breeder who is breeding indiscriminately would produce less predictable goldens..


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## Guybrush (Apr 17, 2012)

Hi, I have two goldens who are very smart. Sure they don't have the work drive of the border collies but they do listen and learn. The thing that makes goldens easy to train is their focus on pleasing their family. I see quite a few badly behaved goldens and I wonder if they have had any training.

My two are almost ready to start getting their Community Companion Dog titles, and we plan to look into agility later to see if it suits them. You should have a look at the agility section of the boards to see if particular breeders have success with that.

As for goldendoodles, I don't like them. The "breeders" here only list the hypoallergenic coat as coming from the poodle and the personality and intelligence of the golden. But I am a golden snob.


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## Jaykay (Jul 20, 2013)

Does he really want info. and lacks the social skills to ask properly, or is it just a troll?


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## Dart (Aug 5, 2013)

Maybe I just have not met your true golden then. I was sort of hoping the field type would have more drive than the average golden. I guess I may be a bit biased and have unrealistic expectations so I apologize if I have offended you by stating that in my experience the ones I have met have been quite dense. They also always seemed to lack basic manner but I suppose that could always be lack of training, teenager stages (my boy is currently in one of those...) or a bad day. 

I suppose my main focus was finding out if one would be a fit for me, since they are the breed my dog likes and trusts. I do like their sweet temperament I was just hoping my experience with them isn't what the vast majority of then are like. I want a dog that actually has drive (so the ones bred for their working ability right).

Thank you for your responses! I am sure training a golden would be very different from a border collie  I just would hope the golden would be able to keep up and enjoy the same things we do. Like I said before what I described is just my experience with goldens I have lived with and met (and a golden x lab.... he took the cake haha). 

Also its not nice to call names, I came and asked questions with my reasoning and experiences with the golden retriever. I fail to understand where I lack social skills, must be over my head I guess. Quite rude, but you are entitled to an opinion. If you have anything actually useful please feel free 

I would want to add my new addition (golden retriever or not) in about a year and a half. So would a working bred dog have a lot more drive? Thank you so much everyone is so welcoming!

Dart


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## Nubs (Dec 14, 2012)

This is such a strange posting. Come onto a golden retriever loving forum to trash golden retrievers, surely, this must be a troll.


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

I have no idea what you're talking about. "In your face" "Lights are on but no one's home"? That doesn't describe any goldens I have met. My 12 week old knows already all the basic commands, and in addition he knows where all his stuff is kept in a closed cupboard, how to ask for an ice cube, where his best friends live, who sleeps in each room of the house, and I have actually caught him classifying his toys (carefully placing his stuffed toys on one side, his tennis balls in a corner and so on). Stubborn he can be, but "dense" doesn't describe a puppy who figured out how to get himself taken out to play even though he doesn't have to pee, and who will sit firmly at the door when he's not ready to come back in...unless a command is issued that he knows holds the promise of a treat...
Seriously I don't think you should get a golden if you think these are just dumb pretty creatures to look at: you're in for a huge surprise and you may not be ready for it.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Dart (Aug 5, 2013)

I honestly fail to see how I have indicated at all that I want some dumb dog that is just nice to look at... How am I trashing them if I am just stating my personal experience with the breed?


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

As stated, goldens are often in the top at obedience competitions.
The rude goldens you've met are 100% due to lack of training.
If you want a dog with more drive, than getting one bred for field work or even bred from a line of obedience dogs is the way to go. But you will need to do your research to find dogs bred for purpose. These dogs will most likely not be down the street from you or even in the same town. I had to drive 8 hrs to another state to find my dog.
Are there some dense goldens, of course there are. Is that the normal? Not even close.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I wasn't going to respond, but then I figured that I either have mistaken your intentions in posting and/or it would be good to respond for the sake of anyone who may be looking into the breed. 

Dogs, like kids, generally reflect what they've been taught. Natural ability and intelligence goes to waste when the dogs are not trained consistently and with proven methods that generally work. 

My one instructor who owns a different breed (Portuguese Water Dogs) has the highest opinion of goldens and their trainability and sharpness in obedience. Because goldens win. She knows because she competes at a high level in obedience with her dogs and has seen goldens sweep shows. 

Do they come trained? Nope. But neither do border collies.

The difference is that an untrained golden is relatively harmless - aside from a lot of hyperactivity and destructiveness. An untrained border collie is a different story since those that I've met do have tendencies towards dog aggressions, shyness, and fear aggression. 

As far as mixed breeds - I think the problem with buying them is you have people who expect a wonder dog who is an exact combination of the good traits of both (or all) breeds behind him. What generally happens though is you will get a relatively ugly dog who has all of the bad attributes of the breeds behind him. 

Back to goldens and their intelligence and instincts - though I own two goldens who do not have much recent field blood in them (you go generations back and you will find it). I do believe that both are the smartest things ever. They learn by watching and listening. And there are various things like them knowing the bumping door handles up will open doors and water gallons need to be carried over to their water bowls, uncapped, and tipped to pour water into their bowls. 

My 5 year old was the first who figured out the water gallon trick. My 10 month old shocked me yesterday when I saw him casually step into my bedroom closet, pick up the water gallon in his mouth, carry it over to his bowl, uncap it... which point, I rushed in to do the next step for him, but it does show you that give dogs the opportunity to learn - they do.

When goldens are not given the level of training and socialization with their family to the extent that they learn to associate various tasks with "good things" - that is when you have a lot of people talking about how brainless and stupid their dogs are. And it's a bit sad.

And there is one more thing. Years ago when we first got hooked on dog training - my sister more so than me way back then. She assisted at puppy class and many of the other "pet training" type classes with our instructor back then. That instructor emphasized and lectured time and again that for many dogs there was a "window" of time to instill that desire to work and learn. By the time the puppies are 15 weeks old, they generally start expanding their world and the hormones start kicking in. Dogs are obviously still trainable past that point, but it gets a lot more difficult with many. That is how important early socialization and early handling and training is with puppies.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Dart, maybe you should participate in a dog forum where they discuss dogs more to your liking. What you did was just rude. Many of us compete or are preparing to compete with our dogs in everything from obedience, agility, hunting, tracking and some of our Goldens do service work. Dumb, no not all all, but I'm sure there is a dog out there that will meet your needs if you have any need for a dog.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Dart, have you met any GRs at your agility training with your border collie? I am sure that the more you get involved in training your BC you will find also training GRs and you will see the difference. 
Maybe also you could go to agility competitions, field tests and see them in action, especially if this is something that you like to do with your BC.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I believe every handler (owner) gets the dog that they train.

Someone may have the brightest bulb but if they don't turn it on it will never shine.


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## jacksilas (May 26, 2013)

I have had / loved many breeds of dogs (Irish Setter, Basset Hounds, English Bulldogs, a beautiful Staff., a wonderous Pit Bull, a Lab, and a Sheltie just to name a few).

We have, and adore, and are owned by our first Golden who is 6 months old now (we adopted him nearly 3 months ago). He is the best, best, best decision ever. EVER.

He is smart, smart, smart and the easiest, most well-behaved puppy I have ever encountered. (since the first night here, after leaving his first family, likely confused and curious, he has slept on his bed right beside ours, albeit it gated in the bedroom. He knows to chew his bed-bone should he wake up in the night. He knows to ask out if he needs to go. He knows to jump on furniture or the bed by invite only. Likewise, he knows that if we camp or hotel it, it is a free-for-all. And when we get home, he reverts back to his boundaries. He knows which outing is his last on workdays no matter how I vary it, and to lead me to the freezer for his kongsicle when he comes in. He then heads to his apartment to suck on that and wait for his walker. On Wednesdays he knows exactly what day it is and can barely wait to leave for daycare. He can be stubborn, even annoying on occasion, but in that, even, his intelligence is apparent.). Sure, he is entering his teen months, but I have faith.

Perhaps Goldens are not the breed for you - if you can wonder if they are dense.

If I was to think about it I could recall several Boarder Collies I have known over time and would say, they are highly smart for sure, and I have heard them referred to the smartest breed. I don't know about that. But what I do know is that they are not the breed for me. The ones I have known were extremely one-person dogs and always 'on', without the ability to kick back and relax with all 4 feet in the air after your morning run while your one mom types on the computer and your other one sleeps in, sick, in bed. Nor have they been cuddly and interested in an everything-is-okay-now-that-I-am-home hug - the kind where your little blonde guy leans into you, sort of sinks in and lets you bury your nose in his fur to breathe in his puppy smell. Those are the moments I cherish. And while there are exceptions to every breed, I am more likely to get them with a Golden. So, maybe that is not your stchik and more energetic independence is.

To each their own, I say. But don't underestimate the smarts of our cuddlers just because they like to goof around and make us laugh every now and again. In every silly moment there is a mountain of trust and ability and willingness to please. As a person owned by a Golden you need to honour that.

Just saying. . .


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Goldens are *highly* trainable, always eager to please.

If Goldens were "dense" as you say, you wouldn't see so many of them trained as Service Dogs, Therapy Dogs, and Search and Rescue Dogs.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

No one told my little golden girl that she couldn't herd sheep. She can keep up with all the border collies at the CKC herding trials. She is currently working on her HIs Herding Intermediate (sheep).










She also started out to be a Special Skills Dog, and can open accessible doors, find my keys, do the laundry and bring you a beer. 

So nope, goldens are NOT "dense".


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Millie's Mom what an incredible picture and good for you. That is one happy dog.


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## ServiceDogs (Apr 2, 2013)

I would check out the breeder Gaylans, particularly their dog Corey (chosen since there is a video of her performing) LornaDoone Encore! Encore! UD SH MX MXJ CCA WCX OD VCX

My problem with doodles, is you can't pick and choose which traits get passed on from which breed as the breeders claim. They say that they get the golden temperament, non shedding of the poodle and the hypoallergenic trait from the poodle. In actuality they do shed, although if they get the poodle type coat it is greatly reduced. Only about 1/3 are hypoallergenic which means 2/3 aren't. And since when does the breeder have the power to choose which parents temperament they inherit? Really, that's just dumb to think it works that way. Every doodle I have met is either the most high strung idiot of a dog with no manners, or too smart for their owners who didn't expect or respect the poodles temperament and usually the dogs end up in a shelter. You DO NOT get the golden temperament with the poodle intelligence, you get ANY cross of the two breeds plus the downsides to both breeds. And goldens (from the right breeder) are every bit as smart as poodles so it really is pointless.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Breeding can make a difference. You generally get what you breed for, at least long term. Flip's dad is field lines, mom is obedience lines. He's super smart with lots of drive. 

Conner was from a newspaper ad. I always joked he lost oxygen coming out of the birth canal. Super sweet, would do anything for me, but not all that bright and not much there for drive.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I remember when we got out first golden, my husband was in a conference and a 'dog trainer' was taking part. My husband asked him about training goldens and the guy said that Goldens were the worst to train because they are so stubborn. Yeah right!
Not much of a trainer in my opinion. I never had any problems with any of my goldens, easy to train, very anxious to please, very intelligent.


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## ServiceDogs (Apr 2, 2013)

Loisiana said:


> Breeding can make a difference. You generally get what you breed for, at least long term. Flip's dad is field lines, mom is obedience lines. He's super smart with lots of drive.
> 
> Conner was from a newspaper ad. I always joked he lost oxygen coming out of the birth canal. Super sweet, would do anything for me, but not all that bright and not much there for drive.


Conner was also retired with 28 OTCH points though, right?


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

cgriffin said:


> I remember when we got out first golden, my husband was in a conference and a 'dog trainer' was taking part. My husband asked him about training goldens and the guy said that Goldens were the worst to train because they are so stubborn. Yeah right!
> Not much of a trainer in my opinion. I never had any problems with any of my goldens, easy to train, very anxious to please, very intelligent.


I've always thought people in obedience didn't have any respect for the goldens because they were too "easy" to train?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Couldn't tell you, also that incident was about 29 years ago, lol and I never met that so-called dog trainer.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Goldens often shut down with certain methods, particularly those that rely heavily on aversives like stern voices or other kinds of intimidation. That can lead people to call them "stubborn," but that's really far from the truth. The dog is actually feeling helpless, not stubborn.

Every Golden I've met that somebody called "dumb" turned out to be pretty bright when properly motivated, especially once a bond of trust was built up.

In my experience when somebody calls a dog dumb, it says more about the human than the dog.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Do some research. Goldens are right up there near the top of the list for intelligence and train ability. Sure border collies are very smart. Maybe you should listen to yours. I think you said he prefers Goldens.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

ServiceDogs said:


> Conner was also retired with 28 OTCH points though, right?


Conner had 28 OTCH points, 7 High In Trials, and made it into the Golden Retriever Obedience Hall of Fame. But that had nothing to do with brains, that had to do with his bidability. He loves to work with me and really wants to make me happy. So he happily does what I ask him to do. When he finally understands what it is that I want him to do. And if it isn't too scary. He was the result of backyard breeding and it showed. Still love him to pieces though!


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> I've always thought people in obedience didn't have any respect for the goldens because they were too "easy" to train?


As I recall most of the national top ten all breed obedience dogs are Goldens.


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## LeilaM (Sep 14, 2012)

Hi Dart

Please try to understand, people here (including me) love their golden retrievers. While you may have meant no harm, using the term "dense" comes across as a put down. Not only that it simply isn't true. They are very smart dogs. They are people dogs who love their families. An untrained dog isn't "dense" just untrained. 

Perhaps you have confused intelligence for a different quality you are looking for. Goldens are not herding dogs. Is that what you need? Honestly I would concern yourself more with what you are looking for in a dog than what your border collie seems to like. If you need a working dog with a rock solid temperament, you might look at a Great Pyrenees. They are very smart, but also more aloof, very independent and thus can be more of a challenge to train. They do however excel as working dogs as they are a livestock guardian. That being said they do not necessarily have quite the activity requirements of a border collie. Consider too that while your dog, "likes goldens" bringing any dog into his house may be a different matter.

I hope this helps. People all have different preferences and requirements in what they look for in a dog. Golden retrievers are wonderful dogs, don't be so quick to judge but get the dog that's right for you and try to pick your words more carefully when asking questions to those who really love their chosen breed.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

TheZ's said:


> As I recall most of the national top ten all breed obedience dogs are Goldens.


Oh I have no doubt! For some reason I have it in my brain that golden trainers didn't get the same respect as other breeds trainers because they felt as though the golden trainers didn't have to work as hard.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

As others have stated, most of the top obedience dogs are Goldens. A lot of great agility dogs are goldens.
If you tell us where you are located we can help you find a breeder who specializes in the type of golden you are looking for.
BTW, my boy is very smart and biddable, hence he has just a few titles....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> Goldens often shut down with certain methods, particularly those that rely heavily on aversives like stern voices or other kinds of intimidation. That can lead people to call them "stubborn," but that's really far from the truth. The dog is actually feeling helpless, not stubborn.


Actually - with my experience of watching lots of obedience classes....

Golden retrievers (and other breeds) shut down because of ineffective handling. This can be erratic behavior from the owner who is getting frustrated and upset to nagging/begging. 

You also have trainers rewarding their dogs while the dogs are not presenting a desired behavior - which only reinforces or confuses the dog further. 

Lots of crazy stuff.  

The funniest thing I have to relate - back in puppy classes and towards the end of the session, the instructor decided to have a "trade off". This was where people switched dogs. 

I had people fighting to get Bertie - who was the STAR of the class. I mean literally I got creeped out when 4 or 5 people came rushing. :bowl:

And they used the same training techniques on him that they used on their own dogs - with similar results. 

Bertie blew them off completely and pulled the entire time to get to me. Meanwhile they were pulling on his leash and repeating commands like if it didn't work the first time it'd work the hundredth time. 

Meanwhile, when an actual experienced trainer takes the leash from me - they can generally get very nice results from either dog. That is the difference in handling skills. And why it still goes to show - you can have a very smart dog who has the whole package as far as obedience goes... but it doesn't mean anything if the people training the dogs do not know what they are doing. :


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## Showell (Jun 16, 2013)

There are no "DENSE GOLDENS" just dense owners!!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Goldens are not dense. I think it's very likely if you have had Border Collies, what you are seeing just the difference in hyper drive. There is absolutely no way you can compare Goldens and BC's, they have polar opposite breed personality. That does not mean Goldens are less smart than a BC, because they are quite intelligent. 

If you are attending trials, agility, obedience, etc., go watch the Goldens, you'll see.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Jennifer1 said:


> Oh I have no doubt! For some reason I have it in my brain that golden trainers didn't get the same respect as other breeds trainers because they felt as though the golden trainers didn't have to work as hard.


The ones who think that are the ones who have never actually worked seriously with one. ALL dogs have their own challenges. I can't tell you how many obedience/agility people go out and get a Golden or Border Collie, then realize its not going to be a "gimme" or nearly as easy as they thought.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I had someone at an obedience show (with boston terriers) tell me that she was glad she didn't have Goldens. She said the Goldens are all expected to be close to perfect, and that was a lot to live up to. Said her Bostons, well, people were amazed they could learn their names


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## Showell (Jun 16, 2013)

There are no "DENSE GOLDENS" only dense owners!!!!


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Dart said:


> The only thing that really turns me off from ever wanting to own one myself is that they all (and there are many around here) just seem so dense. I get a lot of the 'lights are on but no one is home' looks from them. I have personally lived with two goldens and a golden mix (all room mates dogs over the years) and although I can see why someone may want a dog that wants nothing more than to goof off and never learn anything (mostly) I just do not understand why everyone who owns then just states that they are soooooo smart but just a bit stubborn.


My dog only knows a few commands and likes to do his own thing, which might lead someone to believe he isn't that smart, but living with him and interacting with him day to day, I know that he is incredibly smart. What he has is a large amount of social intelligence. He winds up implementing remarkably astute and complex plans to get me to what he wants.  The first time I realized he was sometimes training me instead of the other way around I was pretty impressed.  He also does a lot of social engineering in the company of other humans and dogs. But that's a type of intelligence people don't always pick up on, because it's kind of subtle and doesn't fit in with people's expectations of a dog (We often don't perceive what we don't think to look for).

Even as an eight or nine week old puppy, when he realized I didn't want him to chew on electrical cords, but was alright with him chewing on his rawhide bones and dog toys, he would drag the bones and toys over to the electrical cords. He would then precede to chew on the cords, and, when I looked up, immediately switch over to chewing on the bones or toys. If I said something, he'd look up at me like "What? I've been here chewing on this bone the whole time. I thought we were cool with me chewing on bones". Fortunately, I broke him of his cord chewing habit fairly young. 

And he is a natural leader, which some people could interpret as stubborn. Any dog breed is going to have some individual dogs who are more dominant or submissive relative to other dogs in their breed. But even my golden, who takes charge of any dogs he runs around with and is leading their pack almost immediately when introduced to new ones, knows the rules and follows most of them (I had to bend on one or two), and will usually back down you get really serious with him, even though he'll put up some resistance if he doesn't think you're at the end of your rope and he disagrees on a course of action. He's not allowed up on furniture and we were visiting a dog in a home where that dog was allowed up on furniture and the second that dog jumped on the couch, my golden started barking at him and trying to call our attention to him being in a humans-only area.  In the end, he's still a golden.  It's different from dealing with a pit bull or something.  He also has the intelligence to know when he can be disobedient without it putting us in danger, and when he needs to listen and obey to a tee (Basically, if he sees a loose dog or something that looks dangerous, or that sort of thing, he immediately starts obeying me to the letter, it's when he's at ease and perceives no exterior threat that he'll sometimes push boundaries).

He also understand English remarkably well. He doesn't always do what people want, but he reacts in ways where one understands that he has processed a request. 

The other thing I can think of that might lead you to think a golden isn't intelligent is that they really, really, love being petted, playing, and being in the company of people, and thus will look really really happy or in a state of bliss sometimes when you're petting them. So, if you associate that sort of look or personality with a lack of intelligence, you might get that vibe from them, but it's not reflective of their actual IQ. Goldens also tend to let their mouths hang open and pant a lot, and again, some humans may think of that as reflecting a lack of intelligence, the way some humans call other humans "mouth breathers" as an insult related to intelligence, but again, that's a situation where people are perceiving a display to mean something it doesn't.

One idea I get from your post is that maybe you also equate "serious" with "smart" and "goofy" with "dumb", which isn't strictly accurate. The goldens I've met, and this may be different in some circles where they do formal training or breed for competitions (The golden I have and the ones I've met are all just pets who hang around with their owners and go for walks and stuff), do tend to be playful more than serious. They're smart, but not nose to the grindstone types. My dog gets serious at times- when he's marking territory on walks, when his nemesis the neighborhood Rottweiler is in sight, when one of his dog friends very rarely tries to take charge of the pack during hangouts, etc.- but mostly he likes to kind of do the equivalent of goofing around with people and dogs.  That's just personality, not a reflection of intelligence. 

Goldens can also he a little hyper and run around like maniacs, which may lead one to think of them as mindless balls of energy, when it fact it's not much different from a kid running around, or an adult human who likes to jog. They are just athletic.

What you may be saying, if I am reading behind the lines correctly, is that you want a very serious minded dog. If so, goldens may not be for you. I'm kind of a serious guy sometimes and get too melancholy and trapped in my own head, and purposely sought out a golden in part because they are light-hearted and fun, and can make me see the lighter side of something or make me take a break and wrestle or play fetch something. 

If you really want serious, goldens might not be the breed for you (Though all dogs are individuals, and I'm sure there are some goldens that "go against type"), but if you just want intelligence without regard to seriousness or goofiness, than goldens are a good fit, because they are the smartest breed of dog I've ever been around. But they do like to have fun and mess with you a little, especially when they're young.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

No, goldens are not dense - as mentioned they excel at many sports but it is completely unfair to comapre them to border collies. Their origins are completely different and their work ethics are displayed in different ways.

Goldens need to be trained. They thrive on training and adore working close to their people. Jump & weave training for agility is often delayed until they are more mature (their growth plates have closed) than for border collies because they are built for field work (running hard in fields, swimming strong in water) not for herding. Goldens can cut and dart with the best BCs (my Casey would beat most BC's hands down) but the angulation of their front ends are different.

Most of the BC's I have known prefer working at a distance and have big personal space zones - the golden is bred to work closely and as such has a much smaller personal space - thus the 'in your face' trait you mention below.

I would suggest you not consider getting a golden retriever. They require a person who will train them, admire all their positive traits, and can love them when they are feeling like a goof ball.

BTW: All of the goldens I have had do obedience. Most do agility (agility was just starting with my 1st golden so he missed out), if they show aptitude they do field work. They are my hiking companions, my biking companions and just beautiful wonderful comapnions. They do need training, they do need exercise and they do need quality time with their people. They also have done therapy work (they are fed with minamal vaccinations now though) and my youngest seems to be a natural diabetic alert dog since he will awaken me when my sugar falls too low during the night.

I personally do not like Border Collies and so they are not a consideration for me. It would not be fair to expect a BC to fill the role my goldens fill in my life.



Dart said:


> Hello,
> I actually like many of the goldens I have met, they are sweet and goofy. The only thing that really turns me off from ever wanting to own one myself is that they all (and there are many around here) just seem so dense. I get a lot of the 'lights are on but no one is home' looks from them. I have personally lived with two goldens and a golden mix (all room mates dogs over the years) and although I can see why someone may want a dog that wants nothing more than to goof off and never learn anything (mostly) I just do not understand why everyone who owns then just states that they are soooooo smart but just a bit stubborn.
> 
> I am sure there are exceptions to every rule and there may in fact be a golden or two who do not come across as so dense, but is it the massive amounts of inbreeding that has led to a serious decline (assuming at one point they were high intelligent as many still claim) in intelligence? Or is it careless breeding? AKCs lack of a breeding standard (besides looks...)?
> ...


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

I think Golden Retrievers are the most versatile, smart and highly trainable breed there is. If you think about it how many breeds do we know that can excel at all of the following and more?

In no particular order: Hunt/field, seeing eye dog, agility, therapy dog, tracking,obedience, alerting to low blood sugar/seizures, great with kids, swimming, service dog, couch potato or highly driven depending upon circumstance. 

Security: Drug/bomb detection / military:

Golden Retriever who served 4 tours of duty laid to rest | The Daily Golden 












Search and rescue: 

Golden Retriever Riley: The Real Canine Hero from 9/11 – Updated | Land of PureGold Foundation











Freestyle: 






Respectful/loyal: 






That is just a start, there is so much more. I could go on all day.

You have received some flack from the members here because of your limited experience. Goldens are certainly not dense, far from it.

I have met many breeds of dogs over the decades. I have been tempted to say a few individual dogs thereof are dense at times, but it is more the owners of them that are. You get out what you put in.

FWIW my Goldens have been rescues with not the greatest past to put it mildly. They have all came to shine and have proven themselves highly adaptable. I will never profess to being an expert on training but have gotten complements every day for decades on how well behaved and smart they are.

From being ever so gentle with kids to having them slam on the brakes at a word being in a full blown chase after a rabbit, they can do it.

They are very soft mouthed, nary a scale from a fish or feather from a bird removed. Puppies a different story, they are called land sharks for a reason.

If you are after agility and herding than you might want to stick with a BC, it is their thing to speak in generalities. I love them but they are too intense for me although I have met a few mellow ones. You want a do anything dog a Golden can do anything (and excel at it) with the proper guidance.


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## Door (Apr 2, 2010)

I sure have enjoyed this thread.


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## Bob Dylan (Mar 31, 2009)

Steve, perfectly worded...........Thank You!


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Mine understand two languages. Dense? Hmmm...


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## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Thanks Steve for that brilliant post!

I particularly liked the story of Riley the 9/11 hero. A video that I had not seen before, but makes me extremely proud to be a golden owner  just fantastic!


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## elly (Nov 21, 2010)

Goldens are dense?!!? Well I learn something new every day I guess! :doh:

My Golden has helped people with Dementia forge memory links, he has created more smiles in people with Dementia and their Carers in an hour than I could in a month, he has helped raise money for our charity and he raises awareness of my family members and me when my rare health condition starts to flare up and I need medication. If I or they don't heed his warnings, he tries to rouse me enough to call for help or rouse me out of my state which looks similar to a diabetic hypo. If I am too deeply gone, he stays with me until someone comes or until I start to come out of it or until he can get me out of it, even by sitting on my chest! 
Dense? Well, if so, I wouldn't change him for the world..but as far as I can see, this beautiful intelligent and sensitive dog has more brain and care in him than many humans I know. :uhoh:


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## Nally (Jun 20, 2013)

I think you may be mistaking Golden's just "goofing off" with their playfulness...as others have said, they are very trainable, smart dogs. But they are also very very playful, funny, energetic, and LOVE being close to their human. They're not going to work and learn 24/7; they need their goofing off time just like us humans do! 

If the Goldens you've experienced are "rude", I'd agree that it all comes down to the amount of time and training an owner has invested. As others have also mentioned, a Golden will be very different from your current dog in regards to personality (playfulness, willing to please, being velcroed to your side), but that does not mean a Golden is lesser or less intelligent! They are always willing to learn if you're willing to teach.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm on my sixth golden. I can truthfully say that all of them have been many different things, but dense has never been one of them. Stubborn, willful, sweet, biddable, loving, clingy, faithful, loyal, endearing, are just a few of their many traits. Dense, never. Maybe I've been lucky.


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## Sirfoulhook (Dec 2, 2011)

I have had Chesapeake Bay Retrievers (smart but very aloof to anyone but their own family), a Gordon Setter (my buddies called him Roy Hobbs on pheasants because he was a natural, very smart), an English Setter (very smart but evil) and I now have a Golden and a Dachshund. My Golden is about 20 months. He is the biggest goofball I've ever seen. He is the most playful dog I have ever had. He might seem dense to some because he's such a goofball but he is up there with my setters as far as lights being on. He doesn't come from field stock but I know he would do well out on the field. He is a problem solver. Unfortunately I am no longer in a section of the country where I can hunt with any regularity. I think the poster confuses the goofy side of goldens with lack of intelligence. They consistently do well in training tests.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

U know I think this poster is having some fun to see just how worked up we can get defending our beloved breed.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

When I've had Ella in obedience classes, she's always been the star pupil. I'm always surprised at how quick she picks up on things.


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## PrincessDi (Jun 8, 2009)

Just wanted to add that our goldens have always been smarter than most people. If only people were half as sincere, loving, trusting and intelligent as goldens are the world would be eutopia.


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## maizy's mom (Nov 21, 2012)

Honestly Dart, I do not feel as though you were trying to introduce any thought provoking conversation that interested you, but instead wanted to start something. In case you are a bit dense, this is a golden retriever forum, therefore you are amongst golden lovers. That being said, I believe all dogs given the proper love, training and nuturing can reach their true potential. My 1 and a 1/2 year old golden learns something new all the time. I am quite sure the lights are on!


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

I'm sure there ARE less than intelligent Goldens out there as a product of bad breeding. Mistakes or lack of attention towards certain characteristics does happen.

Although, the vast majority of Goldens I have met are anything but dense. Being "dense" is certainly not a characteristic of the breed. I am not quite sure what you mean by dense anyways. Do you mean un-biddable?

Biddability is a completely different topic. It is the dog's desire to please his owner and to be a true "team player." Biddability is such a necessary skill for a dog who was bred to work all day in the field retrieving fallen birds whether he saw them fall or not. And the biddability of a Golden has been used in all kinds of other sports. Golden Retrievers excel in obedience, agility, search and rescue, service dog work, therapy dog work, tracking, and more.

Yes, there are lines of Goldens that are especially biddable. This is especially true if the line of dogs is bred to do a specific job. A Golden should have the upmost willingness to work with you anytime it is asked.

Drive is different than intelligence and biddability. Drive is the desire to work and work and work no matter what the situation. Dogs with tons of drive will continue to work even as they tire or even if they are injured. Dogs that stereotypically display a lot of drive are Border Collies and field-bred labs. However, certain lines of Goldens exhibit a lot of drive as well. My own 16-mont-old Jade has drive coming out of his ears. I have to call it quits because he will literally work himself to death. I have been told by top agility handlers that Jade has the most drive of any Golden Retriever they have seen. I have big plans for him in agility, obedience, and field. And I asked for a dog who I would not have to cheerlead or ask to do his job. That's just what I got.

However, drive and intelligence come with responsibility. Smart dogs with a lot of drive require a lot of physical and mental exercise just to stay happy. If you ignore one of these dogs, you and your home will suffer the consequences! Jade is not a dog that I can take around the block and call that exercise. He demands a lot out of me as an owner, but I ask a lot out of him in training. We make a good team, but it is not easy. Truly consider your circumstances before wishing for a dog with drive. You get what you ask for, and that is not always what you want you will later realize!


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I have my third Golden and all have been very smart. I think you should buy a cat. Sounds like you deserve one!


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## golden rascal (Feb 22, 2013)

It as you are looking for a pet, GRs at more like friends, so you would probably be better off choosing another breed


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## Dart (Aug 5, 2013)

To those who have actually answered my questions and been mature about it, thank you I will most definitely be researching the field bred lines. I am also considering another border collie, like I have said time and time again I actually like the golden temperament, yet apparently that all gets lost when in my experience the ones I have met have been less than stellar with anything but running around like mindless lunatics with no manners. The ones I have sat down with one and one are quite charming and affectionate, like I had said I had just doubted their intelligence from my experience with them.

As for the stereotypical descriptions you are portraying a border collie as, that is not how the border collie should be when bred correctly (for working ability). My boy has an off switch because I taught him to settle when he was very young. He can lay and watch a movie on the couch when told to settle. Yet as much as he loves a great cuddle on the couch as soon as we are going to do something (anything) he is ready and rearing to go without a second glance. We do foundations agility, herding lessons along with exploring all the outdoor places that are dog friendly in our area. He honestly is my best friend (to the haters who suggest I find a pet rather than a friend...)

As for your description of an 'untrained' border collie, I believe you have mistaken this with socializing (although also a form of training and completely necessary). Believe it or not ANY dog no matter the breed without proper socialization can be shy, fear aggressive and dog reactive -so on so forth.

I am doing my research now so I can find a good breeder well before when I want to add another (year and a half). I am not dead set one way or another. Like I have said I have not met the goldens that have actually been engaged in using their minds and that have drive. I did see one dog that looked like a golden on the agility field when we went to watch. 

Also I would like to point out (again....) that the goldens I have met are just my experience with the breed. If every border collie you met was hyper active and never settled down you would probably go off spouting information that did not represent the well bred working collies because that is what YOU know and your experience. Same goes with every other dog you meet. If every pit bull was dog reactive you'd probably say most are dog reactive. If every shepherd you met growled and barked at you they'd most be protective and hence people reactive since that is your experience. Are there smart goldens, borders with an off switch, dog friend pits and shepherds that love everyone? Absolutely! But that probably isn't what the vast majority of people have experience with. Backyard breeders and AKC play a huge role in destroying good breeds ( so many dogs cannot do what they were originally bred for or are crippled with devastating health diseases).

Thank you to those who were polite. I apologize if I was perceived as being less than polite. Also I would go around flaunting a CKC herding title it just looks like he is chasing sheep. Sorry that'll probably come off harsh but I guess harshness is apart of these board. 

Also I am in Washington state, I would be interested in anyone who knows of a breeder of the field type in the state. I am all for supporting dogs who can still do their job. Thank you. 
-Dart


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I train with 2 very good clubs here where there are people with border collies competing at a high level in agility and herding (meaning national competition, not just foundations agility). These people sometimes stop by the obedience side with their dogs and... I'll be honest, I have never met a nice border collie. I don't trust them to the point I will get in their space with my dogs. And generally the owners request that people keep their dogs away.

One of my friends is a border collie person - and she freely admits that border collies are a judgmental and suspicious breed. They don't like people and dogs getting into their space - it's an invasion, according to them. 

She pokes fun (we are friends, it's all nicely meant) at me and other golden people - because we and our dogs are the complete polar opposite when it comes to how we socialize. We are going right up to people and their dogs and getting in their dogs faces....  

Another breed you may be interested in - is Australian shepherds. I think they are a lot nicer than border collies - though they also can be shy and sensitive. The thing I like about these dogs, and might just be what you are looking for... they are very intelligent. More so than border collies. 

If you are still hankering after our fluffy stupid dogs , you should stop over at obedience trials and sit down to watch. You can also start going to agility trials and stopping over to talk with people who owner performance bred golden retrievers - meaning goldens bred for agility (NOT the same thing as field). If that is your interest, you should be looking in the right places. 

Good luck.


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## Dart (Aug 5, 2013)

In that case I guess my boy is the odd man out, he loves every person and every dog after the established ' stay out if my face' rule is understood. I have heard borders are biased and like other borders, mine likes goldens though (all goldens he gets excited when he sees one). He was attacked three times before he was 6 months so he can be a bit weary if a dog rushes him.

Thank you, I will keep an eye out for any I see in the ring. This is exciting even though I know it is still another year away. I honestly have never met a border collie how you describe them but I can see how that would turn you off to them. I do like aussies, but most of them cannot do their jobs anymore. There is one known breeder here that was pointed out to me in the agility ring as being one of the only working aussie breeder in the area.

Dart


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

our previous dog was a GR/BC mix - he was the sweetest, most kind, slightly stubborn dog. 
He was a house pet and not worked in the field or anything. He was sick with Lupus, had digestive problems and his best friend was a golden.


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## Kat's Dogs (Jul 31, 2012)

Dart,

I have a working bred border collie (8 years old), and a working bred golden puppy (1 year old). I'm also in WA, actually. I looked for years before finding a golden breeder that met my needs, and today I am thrilled with my choice to get a golden. I love how these two breeds balance each other out. I really enjoy the sweetness of the goldens, and that's one of the main reasons I fell in love with this breed. 

You aren't crazy for seeing what you label "denseness" in goldens, but you are used to a working dog with strong eye. The average golden is intelligent and friendly and they make great pets, but they are not often working dogs. I know exactly what you are talking about with the look, and that's why I shied away from goldens for so long despite loving the breed. But just as there are poorly bred BCs that fuel the "insane/hyperactive/mean/obsessive dogs that make bad pets" stereotype, there are a lot of poorly bred goldens out there which fuel the "dim/unhealthy/goofy" golden stereotype.

Now, even among the responsibly bred goldens, there is a huge difference between your average AKC conformation golden and your average field/hunting golden. They are bred for different purposes. Plain and simple. You seem familiar with the breed split in BCs, and that same split is present in goldens (although the golden's history with the AKC is a lot less hostile). I'm not sure about goldens, but in BCs, genetically speaking, the conformation dogs and herding dogs are as different as some _different breeds_ (there is some really cool research on this topic if you are interested). To say that all goldens are the same is silly. It is important to recognize the differences in breeding lines. Thankfully, the working golden type is still alive and well - you just have to know where to look for them. The same way you got a nice performance BC by going to the working lines, you can get a nice performance golden by going to the working lines. If you are careful, you will not get a crazy, insane, wacko golden. You will also not get a totally loose-eyed goofy golden. Just like your BC, you will have a quick and clever working dog with an on/off-switch. 

*NOTE: this is not to say that any goldens are in any way inferior, less likely to succeed in sports, or necessarily less intelligent than field bred goldens - just that some are bred with different goals in mind, and there are undeniable differences in their temperaments and structure as a result.*

It is NOT very different training a field golden and a herding border collie. In training my dogs, both working bred, I have noticed no difference in their "intelligence" (however you wish to define that). No difference in drive. No difference in that fire behind their eyes when they work. No difference in their superb ability to be couch potatoes and watch movies. My golden picks some things up quicker than my BC, and the reverse is also true. Both participate in research on canine learning abilities at university, and neither dog is slower than the other at mastering tasks. Now, there _are_ differences in some aspects of their temperaments - mainly how they interact with people and other animals, and also their problem solving strategies - but when training/working my dogs I get the same feel from both. Everyone told me it would "be a big switch to train a golden." Not at all. 

If you want a golden, I think you will find what you are looking for in a field breeder. Just FYI - even within that broad category there are two other big things to look out for. There are hunting dogs (bred for their original purpose - to be excellent hunting companions), and then there are field trial dogs (bred to be competitive in an AKC sport). Again here, you will see vast differences in temperament as a result of different breeding goals.

Hope that helps a little with your original question. I'll also note that working aussies are not easy to find (compared to BCs), but they are out there, and more and more of them have tails these days. Same ol' story with that breed - there was a breed split, and now the AKC conformation aussies are a completely different creature than the svelte little working cattle dogs. 

Here are my girls. Kova:









Dazzle:


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Kat's Dogs: What a lovely, well thought out reply!


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## Pandy (Jul 21, 2013)

Hey there Dart, you will find there are many BC/Golden owners on this forum who could probably give you good advice on having them as a duo I hope you find what you are looking for. All I can say with honesty and from what I know is they seem to balance each other out quite nicely and hey they both originate from Scotland! go figure.

I personally plan to own both at the same time some point in my life.

Anyway. I don't plan to get into politics. But I understand you as I have been a little hesitant to step outside of my own BC shell so to speak and a little weary of trying something 'new'. 

I am still learning everyday about other dog breeds as I have had much less experience then most of you...I love the golden retrievers as they seem so sweet and have great temperament but one word of advice is to always leave yourself open to new things. Otherwise you may miss out on a great opportunity! 

BCs have a pretty bad wrap too , actually more so then goldens if you think on it...goldens are the country 3rd most beloved dogs. Where dose BC fall on that list? I think ...46? maybe? but it makes sense as the majority of americans do not own farmland. and seeing as the world is populating more and more each day and less and less land is available to herd... To be truthful it makes me a bit sad as I wish BCs were a little more popular... I also feel sad the community surrounding them is so divided whilst golden community here is very close knit. It breaks my heart as BCs are such great dogs deserving of a good rep just like any other breed I feel like you need to jump through hoops just to prove you are 'qualified' of a border collie where my personal experience with my own boy was nothing of the sort. 

I have no quarrel with anyone just offering my own little thoughts.


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## Devon (Nov 29, 2009)

> The only thing that really turns me off from ever wanting to own one myself is that they all (and there are many around here) just seem so dense.


 ??

Dense? Absolutely quite the contrary, really. Both my former and current goldens were/are very smart. In fact, my current one can be very sneaky at times.  Lol.


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## Jaykay (Jul 20, 2013)

Ok, my apologies Dart. You _did_ want the info. And what I meant by lack of social skills was coming onto a GR forum and apparently dissing GRs. Anyway. 

I have BCs too, mine herd my sheep, are cuddly, sociable, love kids and can certainly doss about with the best of them, when the work's done. 










I'm on my second Goldie. She, and my last Goldie, are very different from the BCs, much more laid back, but also not as quick to pick up tiny signals, and are motivated differently. 

Skye, my male BC, puts together long chains of events so that, for example, he has sussed that if it's a weekend, and the weather is nice, when I make a cup of coffee, I'll take it out into the garden, so by the time I've poured it he's waiting at the door. He doesn't do this on work mornings or if it's raining. He loves to anticipate what you're going to do next and be right there with you.

The trick with BCs I always reckon, is to avoid them training you  

Daisy, my GR, has an excellent nose and is good with toys. I bought her one that was described as 'advanced'. Well as usual, I didn't read the instructions, so I put some treats in it, closed it up and put it on the floor. By the time I'd read the instructions about how to carefully show your dog how to open the first layer, then the next - Daisy had opened the lot and eaten all the treats. The BCs show no interest in this toy or the Kong Wobbler, which Daisy is also good at. 

So they're different, and I'd say that the BCs were slightly easier to train, but the GRs are by no means slow. 

And I think they complement each other really nicely. My parents, totally by chance, also have BCs (for the sheep) and a rescue Goldie, and they also live together very well.


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

I hope Dart doesn't get a golden. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I hope you can understand that if the stereotypes and a lot of people's experiences with BC are not your experiences with BC, that the same would hold true with your experience with goldens!

That being said, the only BC that I've ever known had zero working drive and was a big lazy cuddle bug.
When my first golden was young I dabbled in field training. I will say that a few of those goldens and most of the labs had way too much drive for someone like me. They were amazing to watch and very good dogs but they were too single minded for my taste. I'm sure it's unfair to judge them on that limited exposure as I know people with working field dogs that I've only seen in a home setting that were much less high strung. I'm sure it's very situational.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Very nicely said, Kat<:

Admittedly, as I have a conformation bred golden and a pet bred golden with primarily conformation lines behind him, you can imagine my immediate gut instinct. I nearly committed the same crime that Dart did in his first post. But loose lips sink ships.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I stand by my original statement. You want information you ask politely. You don't start out dissing a breed on their forum. No different than if I went on the BC site and started out doing the same thing. There is a way to ask for information and a way not to. She may have gotten the information she wanted but her OP was rude and poorly worded. Why not say I am looking at someday adding a GR to my home. I now have a working BC and love their ....... Is it possible to find a GR with similar qualities in a working line? Most of the GR I've met are very fun loving and seem to lack the drive I'm looking for in a working dog. Nicely put, asking for information and you don't start out putting everyone off. If you find that dog you want I hope you stick around and get more information. Just be aware that as much as you love your BC breed we love our Goldens. I hope someday you love them as much.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Tayla's Mom said:


> I stand by my original statement. You want information you ask politely.


Agreed.

_


Dart said:



To those who have actually answered my questions and been mature about it, thank you... We do foundations agility, herding lessons

Click to expand...

_


Dart said:


> > Apparently, your bc is only taking "lessons" and does not have any titles yet.
> >
> >
> >
> > ...


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Millie's Mom I'm someone who doesn't always think outside the box and frankly I was inspired by your training a Golden to herd sheep. It shows that if you have a dog that is willing to work for you the sky's the limit on what they can be taught. You should be proud not only of your dog, but your relationship with her.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

From my experience in training and competing, the major differences between BC and Goldens are two-fold. 

The first is focus...Goldens have big handler focus while BCs have major obstacle focus. BCs are looking for what obstacle to do next or what next five obstacles to do next. That makes it fun to watch them make up their own courses at a trial. The challenge in training is to get them to believe that the human knows the right course. 

A Golden has great handler focus, which is why they do so well in obedience. They want to know what the handler wants them to do next, they are always checking in. SOOOO the challenge in training them is getting distance and letting them know where you want them to go early...in enough time for them to keep up the pace. 

The second issue is seriousness. A BC has a job to do, when running agility, the agility course is their job...they LOVE doing it, but it is their JOB. A Golden loves playing a game with their person, they love the game and they get to make their human happy.

I know many lovely BCs, some more intense, some less so. I know many people are breeding very drivey BCs for agility and many people LOVE that drive. It is too much for me and I am much happier with my Golden who loves to play games with me!


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Selli-Belle said:


> From my experience in training and competing, the major differences between BC and Goldens are two-fold.
> 
> The first is focus...Goldens have big handler focus while BCs have major obstacle focus. BCs are looking for what obstacle to do next or what next five obstacles to do next. That makes it fun to watch them make up their own courses at a trial. The challenge in training is to get them to believe that the human knows the right course.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to point out that this is not always the case. I know several agility BCs in my area who simply only run agility because it makes their handlers happy. This means they will only go as fast as their handlers push them to. Not every BC is wired, completely obstacle-focused, off-the-wall crazy. Not every Golden is majorly handler focused and only does agility to please its handler.

With such a split in both breeds and different lines carrying varying amounts of drive, I see attitudes and work ethics all across the board in both breeds. The Golden you described fits my Layla very well. While she LOVES agility, she first and foremost wants to please me. She rarely goes off course unless I make a handling error.

My second golden, Jade, fits neither of the descriptions of Golden or BC that you mentioned. Jade will not "go make up his own course", but he is certainly not solely handler focused either. A huge criteria for me when I was picking my third Golden was to have a dog who does not need cheerleading on the course on in the field, but is a biddable team player who will work with me. Jade is completely obsessed with agility obstacles, blasting through sequences as fast as he can. He has so much go and drive, but it is the _training_ that ensures he will not do zoomies on the course. He values my commands and decisions on course.

While zooming around the course may demonstrate a high level of drive, I think it is more of a training issue than anything. It is certainly possible to have a dog with drive coming out of his ears that will not take every obstacle of his choosing. It is easy to teach a recall to hand. You have to _teach_ impulse control to get it. Impulse control is a huge priority when I am training Jade because he exhibits so much drive.

In short, maybe the BCs we see in performance events exhibit more drive than the majority of Goldens seen at the same events, but this cannot be an overreaching generalization applied to both breeds. Breed-specific generalizations on varying characteristics get us in a lot of trouble. They create stereotypes that may or may not be true. If you get the right dog from the right lines, with the right temperament, and the right structure, for _you and your purposes_, with the correct training, you have the opportunity to have a fabulous dog and competitive partner.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have been owned by ten Goldens. The first was the easiest most biddable and trainable dog. With mostly conformation lines behind her, I easily got a CD and CDX. Then I got a girl whose mom was Colabaugh and Gaylans and dad was Colabaugh. When I got her at least four or five of the top ten obedience dogs were Colabaugh. She was a working machine..smart, biddable, problem solver,etc... Easily got her CD CDX UD RA CGC. The third golden was Cookie who got her CD CDX RE CGC. Got burnt out getting my second girl's UD, so did not pursue a UD with Cookie. My current seven are Cookie's descendants.
Among them are Can Ch, AKCpointed, UKC Ch, CD's, RN's, CGC's, etc. I have put 14 or 15 obedience and rally titles on these dogs.... I will say that Tiki who is a Can Ch and UKC Ch is easily one of the most intelligent when it comes to understanding things. However, she has no use for formal obedience. She comes when called does not pull on a leash,,but is not interested in heeling. Both of,her parents had a CDX. My other dog who has an amazing brain is Gabby. At my work at three months of age, she figured out how to open doors. She does not miss anything. She is however, trainable...she loves to heel and loves to show. 

As a vet, I will tell you that the majority of border collies I see do not like strangers in their personal space. I have muzzled many more border collies than Goldens...

I hated Goldens as a teenager as my best friend had a light golden (they bragged he was English) who had to always,have something in his mouth... And I thought it was so neurotic . Now I find that trait endearing....


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I am not criticizing driveness at all, nor am I saying that Goldens do not have drive. I have met BC with less drive and Goldens with lots of drive. However, I will say that the drivey agility Goldens still have more handler focus the average BC. 

Goldens were meant to work closely with their humans and then be sent away to retrieve the game. In the hunting world, it is generally accepted that they do not mark as well as other retrievers but handle better. Is that the case for all Goldens, no, but it would be wise to expect it if you are working with one. In agility, obstacle focus is something that handlers need to work on. Even the best agility Goldens I have seen tend to check in more with their handler and if they make up their own courses do it with what seems like a wink and a nod.

BCs on the other hand were bred to work more independently while still communicating with their handler. High level BC run agility courses with an intensity I have never seen in a Golden. Do the BCs always win? Nope. Sometimes a bit of handler focus is the best thing to have.


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## Dart (Aug 5, 2013)

Thank you for the responses.

I cannot fully express how much all your personal experiences have helped me to see a completely different side to the breed. My pup and I will continue on with our training for another year and half before bringing home another puppy. I would like to have him fully squared away and doing well before adding another  We also do dock diving (the only thing he can compete at right now due to age) and he loves it. He also loves all the goldens he got to meet at the competition we made it to. Didn't seem to care so much for the labs but I suppose he is biased and opinionated 

I just wanted to say thank you guys again for helping out someone with very limited experience with Goldens  if anyone has any breeder recommendations feel free to post them or PM me. I will be doing my own research as well. I would perfer someone I WA so when the time does get close I can meet the parents and the breeder and see where they are raised. 

Dart


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Good luck - and have fun<:

I believe there are quite a lot of nice breeders and trainers out in Washington as well as up in BC.... 

Especially since you have a lot of time yet - I do really suggest you start checking out events where you will definitely find a lot of goldens competing - and check out what you like that way. Everyone is going to like something different in the breed. 

Me personally - I believe that you should have ambitions as far as the type of drivey dog you want to bring home, but the dog needs to be one you can live with and like.


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