# 10 pups born only 7 survived...concerned?



## Solas Goldens (Nov 10, 2007)

I would hear what others have to say, but the situation makes me feel like I would want to know why there were so many birth defects in one litter. I don't think this is common.How old is the bitch? Also maybe she was expposed to chemicals that caused the defects, and how do you know the other pups are going to be problem free? 

They may be fine but these are questions I would ask myself.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I know nothing about doggie births, but it sounds suspect to me. Hopefully some members with experience can answer your question.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

I got to pick the brain of a vet and she said the smallest pup passing away isn't at all uncommon. She also said that she thought the tails could have been caused by some external problem during the pregnancy (i.e. chemicals, roughhousing, accidental fall down stairs, etc.). Her biggest concern was the problem with the anuses. She said that it is uncommon, however, if there were any related issues in the surviving pups they would be evident once the pups started eating solid foods. I was looking for some non-medical advice on this one to go along with the medical advice.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

this is the mom's 3rd (and last according to the breeder) litter and she is 3yrs old, the dad's first litter...because of the problems, the breeder is having the male neutered and she has adopted him out to be a family pet.


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## CosbysMommy (Feb 20, 2010)

3 litters at 3 years old? thats a bit much... but other than that, I don't know much.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

There are some stickies on the top of this section (choosing a golden retriever) you should read. It sounds like this 'breeder' isn't doing what she should. I would read that info if you need to but run. Ask on here where to go for a pup and you'll get a lot of help and advice. 

Stub tails and kinked tails isn't normal as far as I know and makes me think there may be spine issues you won't see, as well as other defects that may not pop up for a year or so. I am the proud owner of two 'runts' who were the smallest at birth but had no problems and I don't think it's that common for the runt to die unless there's issues with the dogs or their care.... not worth the risk. Goldens aren't rare so don't settle!

Lana


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Do the parents have the required health clearances? I would be concerned...


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

newgrmom said:


> this is the mom's 3rd (and last according to the breeder) litter and she is 3yrs old, the dad's first litter...because of the problems, the breeder is having the male neutered and she has adopted him out to be a family pet.


 
This is her 3rd litter at only 3 years old? That is the first red flag for me right there. I'm not a breeder and don't know how common birth defects are in goldens, but from the sounds of it I would walk away from this litter. There are many reputable breeders around who do the required health clearances, among many other things and if you would like some help finding one we would all be more than happy to help you out!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Up to 30% litter loss is normal in large litters. That's mother nature's way of having enough that to lose some you still have offspring. Harsh but true. This would not alarm me.
Now, I personally think the kinked/missing tails and the anus issues are all related...something like spina bifida, neurological development issue.
The only time I have seen multiple kinked tails in a litter was between an accidental breeding between mother and son. 
Let's start with the basics. Do both parents have health clearances verifiable on offa.org for hips, elbows, hearts and eyes?


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## OriJames (Jan 23, 2009)

I will admit, when I first saw the title thread I wasn't too concerned because there are many circumstance where some pups just aren't strong enough to survive the first few days, and it is unfortunate. Ori lost a littermate because the mother accidently sat on her 

However reading you post, it definitely sounds a little suspicious and I always make sure of health checks, and clearances first. Ori's breeder's had exceptional reviews from the Australian Guide Dogs who had picks of almost all their litters and even so that a few of the trainers bought some for their families. 

I would be very cautious and make sure you find out if this is the first time for something like this to happen amongst that particular breeder, and like CosbysMommy, 3 litters at 3 years old doesn't sound right. Ori was the runt himself (I have an attactment to runts) but even then, he was very, very healthy. His breeder's aren't even ANKC (Australian National Kennel Council) registered.

Try and see if you can find others who have experienced these breeders and see what they think. Would they go back to them, etc? In the meantime though, keep a close eye on anything that just doesn't seem "right" to you. If all else fails, trust your instincts.


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

I'd be interested to know how closely related the dogs are.

I certainly would not buy from this litter.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I would want to know the rest of the story about how the two dogs were paired up, what the two pedigrees are so you could look at clearance information, and many, many other pieces of information.

There are a million non-heritable reasons that puppies might be born malformed, so the pedigree information would be a key part of my decision making in this situation.

If this is a backyard breeding, which I'm beginning to suspect it is, stay away from this litter and do a whole lot of research before you commit again.


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## Maya's Mom (Apr 13, 2009)

For me, just the fact that the mother has had 3 litters at 3 years old would be enough to have me skeptical and asking some serious questions. I would need an incredibly good reason and lots of positive references from previous pet owners and other reputable breeders before I would consider a pup from a 3 year old's third litter. Females shouldn't be bred until they are two, so if they waited until she was old enough (which I highly doubt), they would have bred her 3 times in a year, which assuming it was possible, seems cruel to me. That many birth defects would have me running. It seems to me like a bad sign about the health of the litter. There are many golden retriever pups out there, so why get one from a questionable breeding? I am no expert, but there is no way I'd buy a puppy from this litter.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I would certainly be concerned. I had one litter where I had a spina bifida puppy but the rest of the litter were OK and I sold a bitch that was bred from and now 7 generations on there has never been another one.
It is common to lose perhaps one or 2 puppies from a litter especially if the whelping has been a long one, however puppies without anus, stub and kinked tails would have me very worried and 3 litters at 3 years is just puppy farming. 
I would be looking elsewhere if it was me. Annef


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

One or two puppies not surviving would not be a concern for me - that's part of nature. The tail problems and puppies being born without anuses is a major concern, as is the bitch having her third litter at 3. There are just too many health problems happening in this litter for me to be comfortable with it. Better to wait for a healthier litter, and with the bitch's age, I'd find a healthier litter from another breeder.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

bumping up...


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

On K9data the mother and father have a 10th-gen COI of 6.29% and a 12th-gen COI of 8.24%. I have been unable to verify the CERFs or the OFAs on OFFA.org. I have a request into the breeder to see her paperwork though. She does list certification #s (they look like GR-***-VPI) for the mother on her website (Hips, elbows, cardiac, patella's and shoulders) as well as AKC, UKC and IABCA reg#. She also lists eyes as opthomologist cleared. I've met with her twice now and she seems to be on the up and up. There a lot of service organizations that take her dogs and one of the males from this litter is going to a service dog organization.

I'm realizing that there was a lot more background checking that I should have done to begin with, however, the more that I dig now, the more this breeder seems to be okay (except for the possible 3 litters in a 3yr old dog being a problem). The reason I say "possible" is because that I may have misunderstood the breeder. I can only find one other registered litter from this female on K9data, BUT that litter was whelped just before the mother turned 2.

So all in all, I'm concerned about this particular litter, but not neccessarily concerned with the breeder. I'm going to continue some research into the dogs that have gone to service orginizations.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Getting the paperwork should answer your questions. Hearts should be cleared by a cardiologist (C) not a pratcitioner (P) and eyes done by an opthamologist on a CERF form, even if not sent in. You want final clearances, not prelims.

If she belongs to the GRCA, she should follow the Code of Ethics for the Club

www.grca.org

The female having a litter before age 2 is a concern for me, as she could not have had final clearances before the litter was bred. There are rare times a breeder will do that-but only under exceptional circumstances and honestly for me personally, I can't think. of any. If I am worried the male won't be available once she turns two, I can freeze semen and do the breeding later.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I would stay away from a puppy from this litter. The chance of there being longterm health issues is great. 

Being from Michigan, I'm very curious as to who this "breeder" might be, although I have a hunch.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

One of those issues alone would not make me concerned for the litter overall, but kinked tails, a stub tail and missing anuses all in one litter would concern me. There are a lot of well bred litters out there without these concerns-I would go to one of them.

Kinked tails are not caused by crowding in the uterus or other issues. I have had them in the past and the vets all agreed they were related to the development of the spine, and indeed you could tell the vertabrae were "different" feeling as they got older. The first puppy I had like that, I tried to reset the tail  Didn't make a bit of difference. The puppies I have had (only 3, different but related mothers) with kinked tails were fine but I was careful about breeding their mother in the future and did not repeat the breedings that produced the kinks. I had one puppy with a stub tail, and he did later develop epilepsy but we could never find out if it was related to his tail or to the 2 TBD's he developed that were not diagnosed for several months (this was in the 80's).


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Eeek! Sounds like a bad omen to me. Strange birth defects. Are you sure there's not another litter available elsewhere? 

I know that when you want a pup, you want it now and the waiting can be hard. Please check those clearances via the websites carefully if you are still contemplating a pup from this litter.

Links for clearances:

http://www.offa.org/search.html

http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

My major concern is the health of the puppies. I can wait for a HEALTHY puppy ...my husband and I had a beagle that had many health issues related to his spine as he aged it was a long tough road that eventually led to euthanasia as the only humane thing to end his suffering . I know the trials and tribulations of having a sick dog and I do NOT want to go through that again. I also have children now that I don't want hurt by the process of caring for a sick dog.

I thought I was doing a good job with my background check, but I may not have hit the mark.

Pointgold...I don't want to bad mouth anyone and because I am not a breeder, nor do I pretend to know much about it, I can't judge (but I'm trying to heed the warnings and advice of those breeders that are experienced). AND I am VERY concerned with this particular litter. Thank you for your input.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

While I'm here, where should I list an inquiry into southeast michigan breeders?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Here is a place to start http://www.fdgrc.org/referrals.html


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

newgrmom said:


> this is the mom's 3rd (and last according to the breeder) litter and she is 3yrs old, the dad's first litter...because of the problems, the breeder is having the male neutered and she has adopted him out to be a family pet.[/QUOTE]
> 
> I don't breed or have any experience with puppies since I do rescue instead, BUT I must point out the statement you made about the sire.
> 
> The breeder has determined the male is not acceptable breeding material and SHE is not willing to take a chance on future puppies' health (good). Logically, I wouldn't want to open myself up the the heartache these genes might bring.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

newgrmom said:


> My major concern is the health of the puppies. I can wait for a HEALTHY puppy ...my husband and I had a beagle that had many health issues related to his spine as he aged it was a long tough road that eventually led to euthanasia as the only humane thing to end his suffering . I know the trials and tribulations of having a sick dog and I do NOT want to go through that again. I also have children now that I don't want hurt by the process of caring for a sick dog.
> 
> I thought I was doing a good job with my background check, but I may not have hit the mark.
> 
> ...


 
And I appreciate you not wanting to bad mouth anyone. I will tell you that if this is in fact the breeder who I believe it to be, this is not the first litter the dog has sired, and he was used at a _very _young age. Additionally, several other comments are cause for concern. Because this person has established some sort of reputation/relationship with some GRF members, it would be important that they know that there are such problems in the lines/with the breeder, of dogs that they have purchased there. It is not "bad mouthing". It is sharing vital information that they likely would not learn from the breeder themselves, and allowing them to make informed choices in the event that any of their dogs should fall ill (heaven forbid...). Further, if it is who I believe it to be, the stud dog that she has neutered and placed has been replaced with yet another underaged male being used on several females at a time. This would suggest that no lesson has been learned about the pitfalls of breeding too young dogs and not having a good indication of whether there are health concerns.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

I believe that coming to this website and asking about a specific breeder, by name, would allow any other individual to get as much or as little information about that breeder (I've also seen what happens when a breeder has different ideas about breeding that don't fall into place with some of the other breeders on this website). This is why I didn't ask for specific "opinions" about a particular breeder, only looking for info regarding an individual litter.

I've had two separate vets (based on the information about the litter alone) tell me that if they were me, they would still go ahead and purchase a dog from this litter. I also gave them more specifics into the breeder's way of doing things and both vets, AGAIN, assured me that there is no wrong doing here and that the breeder indeed seems to be on the up and up.

I'm much more inclined to take the medical advice I've recieved.

My MAIN concern was with this particular litter, in which case, it doesn't matter who the breeder is.

After all of my "digging" I am happy with this breeder.

Pointgold...I believe that you may be making a wrong assumption as to whom this breeder is.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

newgrmom said:


> I believe that coming to this website and asking about a specific breeder, by name, would allow any other individual to get as much or as little information about that breeder (I've also seen what happens when a breeder has different ideas about breeding that don't fall into place with some of the other breeders on this website). This is why I didn't ask for specific "opinions" about a particular breeder, only looking for info regarding an individual litter.
> 
> I've had two separate vets (based on the information about the litter alone) tell me that if they were me, they would still go ahead and purchase a dog from this litter. I also gave them more specifics into the breeder's way of doing things and both vets, AGAIN, assured me that there is no wrong doing here and that the breeder indeed seems to be on the up and up.
> 
> ...


 
FYI, if you think that I am "assuming" that it is GoldRocks, I am not. And also, FYI, I have more background to make the "assumption" that I have other than what has been posted here.

I am, frankly, shocked that any vet would say this litter is a good one to purchase a puppy from. But, of course, they stand to make considerable money off sick dogs, sadly.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

coppers-mom said:


> newgrmom said:
> 
> 
> > this is the mom's 3rd (and last according to the breeder) litter and she is 3yrs old, the dad's first litter...because of the problems, the breeder is having the male neutered and she has adopted him out to be a family pet.[/QUOTE]
> ...


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad someone did.

I hate stories like this. I'm just not good at these types of things. It breaks my heart.

I fear for the future of these pups if all the lined-up buyers bail out.

I can only hope that the breeder chooses to give them away to GOOD families vs. some really terrible things that my mind can cook up 



Pointgold said:


> I am, frankly, shocked that any vet would say this litter is a good one to purchase a puppy from. But, of course, they stand to make considerable money off sick dogs, sadly.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

She is way too young to have already had three litters. Do you have the registrations names of the sire and dam? I would be checking offa.org for health clearances. This sounds like a litter I would run away from.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I doubt there is any way to know if these problems are congenital or genetic, but either way all the pups have a risk of similar problems to some degree. They might be evident immediately (kinked tail, no anus) or the might not show up for a long time.

The pup you choose might be fine, but why risk it? there are many horror stories on here of people whose puppies had health problems. Not only was it devastating to those owners financially but also emotionally. You said earlier you could wait for another litter......

Okay. I'm done preaching. I personally wouldn't want a pup from someone who didn't think the number of problems in this litter would not only preclude the mating but would also mean the puppies could not in good faith be sold since their health status is questionable.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> I didn't want to say it, but I'm glad someone did.
> 
> I hate stories like this. I'm just not good at these types of things. It breaks my heart.
> 
> ...


"I can only hope that the breeder chooses to *give *them away..." 

Are these puppies being sold? If so, is the price being discounted in any way? Does this reputable breeder's normal health warranty apply to these puppies? Have you looked at K9 Data to see if this is in fact the only litter sired by the male, or, has he sired others? (This would be a very bright red flag if he has, given that the breeder said it was his first...because it would be untrue - trusting a breeder is important, as you'll have a relationship for at least as long as the dog lives).


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I will preface the following by stating I am not endorsing this breeder nor the following practice HOWEVER it IS acceptable and some of the top reproduction vets in the country/world will argue it is the BEST way to ensure the healthiest litters and least amount of danger to the dams.

A number have commented on the fact that at 3 years of age three litters are too many and unacceptable. Actually many top breeders and reproduction vets feel the opposite. If the bitch cycles every six months then in actuality the bitch could have a litter at 24 months, 30 months and 36 months and that would be assuming the dam in question here is 36 months. Maybe she is 40 months, 44 months or even 47 months - still technically 3 years of age. Again not the practice of most responsible breeders but some do. 

As for the rest of the scenario for this litter I too would look elsewhere for a pup. If this breeder holds up to all that you expect from a reputable breeder then maybe a different litter from said breeder. 

And as preposterous as it might sound MANY verage vets have no idea when it comes to breeding and genetics involved, they truly do not. You may want to inquire from some dog folks in your area about vets that are above average.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am not going to tell you if this is normal or whether you should get a dog from this breeder but I would think long and hard on this. For me I would walk away. It is not a risk that I would want to take. There are just too many red flags. 

I say this because a member here got a dog wanting a fun and healthy puppy. She did her research and thought she did everything right. But her puppy was not healthy. She did everything she could for her dog for the longest time trying to keep her healthy, doing surgeries, giving her meds but this sweet puppy never got to live a full life as a golden. And unfortunately she was put down when she was only around 15 months. It was in the best interest in her dog. There could have been several more surgeries but there was no guarantee that they would help. They gave her everything but it was not enough and it was due to no fault of their own. Her family went thru so much pain and heartache. It took them some time to get over the pain and start the look for another dog and luckily they found a new dog but not a puppy but a full grown dog. 

Think long and hard about this and ask that breeder if they are prepared to help if there are problems with the dogs. If not then that would also answer it for me.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> "I can only hope that the breeder chooses to *give *them away..."
> 
> Are these puppies being sold? If so, is the price being discounted in any way? Does this reputable breeder's normal health warranty apply to these puppies? Have you looked at K9 Data to see if this is in fact the only litter sired by the male, or, has he sired others? (This would be a very bright red flag if he has, given that the breeder said it was his first...because it would be untrue - trusting a breeder is important, as you'll have a relationship for at least as long as the dog lives).


Even then, he very well may have sired other litters that aren't on K9data. In my puppy hunt I ran into a couple of breeders whose sires were used by high volume breeders, but of course, those pups weren't on K9data. Information I would learn through various internet searches.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I don't know how any vet could tell a client that this litter is nothing to worry about. Perhaps if the puppies were being given away, that would be a different story... but there are an awful lot of unknowns here, and lots of red flags and serious health problems going on.

Also, I don't think I would consider any breeder who violates the GRCA code of ethics as a breeder on the up and up.

Even if everything winds up being okay with the rest of the litter... there are already signs of health problems in a large portion of these puppies, and a lot of health problems don't manifest until older in life.

Personally, I would not set myself up for the potential heartbreak and expense a puppy from this litter, or from the same blood lines, could cause.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Most puppies are not listed on k9data if they go to pet/non-show homes. It is up to the owner of the puppy to list them.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

BeauShel said:


> Think long and hard about this and ask that breeder if they are prepared to help if there are problems with the dogs. If not then that would also answer it for me.


Get that in WRITING and preferably have an attorney look over it.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

MillysMom said:


> Also, I don't think I would consider any breeder who violates the GRCA code of ethics as a breeder on the up and up.



I may have missed where this was posted. Could you point me to where this breeder did this?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> Most puppies are not listed on k9data if they go to pet/non-show homes. It is up to the owner of the puppy to list them.


 
This is true. However, if the breeder here is who I believe it to be, there are in fact at least two other litters that he has sired listed on K9. Which would mean that saying this was his first is not true. What else would this breeder be dishonest about?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> This is true. However, if the breeder here is who I believe it to be, there are in fact at least two other litters that he has sired listed on K9. Which would mean that saying this was his first is not true. What else would this breeder be dishonest about?


Is there a way to get this information from the AKC?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If you are still considering a puppy from this litter, I would do two things if I were you. First, make sure you understand the contract/warranty the puppy is being sold under, if any. What is covered, and what do you have to do if the unthinkable does happen and there is something wrong with the puppy-return the puppy, submit x-rays to the OFA, see a specialist, wait until a certain age, etc.. Not that money can mend a broken heart but it can help pay off vet bills.  And, most breeders will give you a certain amount of time, usually 48-72 hours to take the puppy to a vet for a basic health check. I would do that right away-given the issues in the litter, the breeder might even allow you take your final choice or two to the vet before you make your choice, at your expense. 

Second, make sure that both parents have their final OFA clearances-hips and elbows are done at the same time and can be done at 24 months of age or older-and that they have heart clearances from a cardiologist and eye clearances from an opthamologist.

Hip and elbow clearances can be checked on www.offa.org and often heart and eye clearances are listed there as well. Breeding on prelims is just not a good idea-hips can change, sometimes from a Fair or Good to a not passing rating-so you want a final rating.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> This is true. However, if the breeder here is who I believe it to be, there are in fact at least two other litters that he has sired listed on K9. Which would mean that saying this was his first is not true. What else would this breeder be dishonest about?


I'm sorry but you are mistaken. The sire has no other litters listed on K9data.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> This is true. However, if the breeder here is who I believe it to be, there are in fact at least two other litters that he has sired listed on K9. Which would mean that saying this was his first is not true. What else would this breeder be dishonest about?


I'm sorry but you are mistaken. The father has no other litters listed to his name on K9data.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

> <snip>I have been unable to verify the CERFs or the OFAs on OFFA.org. I have a request into the breeder to see her paperwork though. She does list certification #s (they look like GR-***-VPI) for the mother on her website (Hips, elbows, cardiac, patella's and shoulders) <snip>


I'm confused. If you have the OFA numbers, why can't you verify the clearances?? You can plug the number right into the search box on offa.org and the dog should pop up. Of course you'd need to know the bitch's registered name to actually verify it's the same dog, but given your faith in this breeder I would imagine they've given you at least that much information. Alternately, you could search by that registered name... so you should have all the information you need to verify what they are telling you. You could also compare the clearance date to when the first litter of pups were whelped to determine whether this breeder truly did their due diligence (though it seems you've already determined he/she didn't). Same goes for CERF... you can search for the dog and/or the number at this page - http://www.vmdb.org/verify.html Now if they didn't mail in the CERF you would need to see the original CERF form filled out by a veterinary ophthalmologist.... but OFA clearances don't exist until the x rays have been mailed in and examined by 3 independent orthopedic specialists. 

If any vet tried to tell me there wasn't a serious risk involved with this litter, I'd be finding a new one immediately. It's unfortunate that so few vets seem to have any real understanding of responsible breeding... how many of the most heartbreaking stories on this forum contain some version of "This breeder was recommended by my vet," in reference to a clueless BYB or unscrupulous borderline miller? I'd contact my local GR club and find out whether members there would recommend this breeder and specifically this litter. They're far more likely to give you accurate information that could save you a world of pain. 

Best of luck, whatever you choose.

Julie and Jersey


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I would stay away from a puppy from this litter. The chance of there being longterm health issues is great.
> 
> Being from Michigan, I'm very curious as to who this "breeder" might be, although I have a hunch.


Me too. I really think you might want to walk away from this one.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> "I can only hope that the breeder chooses to *give *them away..."
> 
> Are these puppies being sold? If so, is the price being discounted in any way? Does this reputable breeder's normal health warranty apply to these puppies? Have you looked at K9 Data to see if this is in fact the only litter sired by the male, or, has he sired others? (This would be a very bright red flag if he has, given that the breeder said it was his first...because it would be untrue - trusting a breeder is important, as you'll have a relationship for at least as long as the dog lives).


below is a quote from "MONOMER" from "A Puppy Buyer's Fact Checker" from this website:

"It seems there are many different ideas on what a breeder should be... what 'best practices' actually constitutes a "good breeder"? I don't believe there is a right answer to this question though it seems some members here believe they know. Is it affiliation with a breed standards organization? I could strongly argue on both ends of that issue and I have actually done so in the past. Is it health certs through organizations such as OFA like hip X-rays taken at 2-years of age? There are good arguments out there that so far these have done nothing to reduce the rate of CHD in the breed. Is breeding a dog under a year of age unsound? There are some who have seen no problem with this practice and in fact doing so has not negatively affected their breeding program in any way. As far as I can tell what we really have here boils down to differences of opinion. That's it, just OPINION! This is the unstated crux of all the in-fighting."

"Arguments about specific breeding practices (ie. importance of AKC, hip X-rays, etc) should then be dealt with in a separate appropriately titled thread in which the merits can be discussed in a civilized and intelligent manner without pointless accusations flying about and character assassinations and innuendo."

above is a quote from "MONOMER" from "A Puppy Buyer's Fact Checker" from this website



First off, I have never referred to this breeder as a reputable breeder...I cannot pretend to know what that is. I have however done my own research and made up my own mind based on numerous different areas of topic (i.e. Vet opinion, other breeders opinion, my own breeder's opinion, my own internet research including offa.org, akc.org, google searches). And my opinion is that this breeder is on the up and up (please don't ask me to define what I call an up and up breeder 

These puppies are being sold at a discount. I am getting the normal health warranty and I have checked K9data to verify that this is the males first litter. I have also been able to verify the clearances listed on offa.org (I was having some user difficulties with the site, I can be a bit computer illiterate at times , as you can see from my repeat posts above).

I've also spoken with a 3rd vet who has supported the first 2 vets in that there is no reason to believe that a pup from this litter would have any higher chance of having something wrong with it than a pup from any other litter. All 3 vets did indeed tell me not to purchase a pup if I was planning on breeding a dog from this litter...I am not, I am looking for a family dog that will be spayed and properly taken care of and loved as a new family member.

How many heartbreaking stories are listed on here of sick dogs? Have all of these dogs come from backyard breeders? Or better yet, have any of these dogs come from reputable breeders? I believe the answer to the second question is probably yes. There is no 100% guarantee against health defects (hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, cataracts, etc.).

My breeder has shown me her clearances, her facilities are nice and clean, I was able to meet both the mother and father and they were absolutely fantastic dogs (I wanted to take the daddy with me because he loved my 2 yr old daughter so much). Unfortunately, dogs get sick...all of us hate to see it, I've lived through it and I don't want to again. Clearances a dog has at 2yrs of age don't always mean that it eventually won't fall victim to hip dysplasia (or elbow dysplasia or cataracts or cancer or get hit by a car)...it has a much greater chance of not happening. This is still however a chance, not a 100% guarantee.

I'm trying my best to get a healthy dog that will be great family dog. I have a 2yr health warranty, I have certifications that I have verified on offa.org, I have AKC registration numbers for both dogs and I've verified much more information on K9data.

I have not been lied to by this breeder. If this breeder was going to lie then they would not have told me about the poor pup that was bottle fed for 3 days before passing, nor would this breeder have told me about the 2 pups that had to be euthanized due to Imperforate Anus (no anus). I would have never known the difference...I only would have seen the kinked tails and then asked questions that would have had to been answered. HOWEVER, my breeder pointed the tales out to me before I even had a chance to notice them!

I stand by my OWN findings, with help from a few here in this forum. And I again will say thank you to all that have contributed...I sincerely appreciate all opinions, that is why I came here. We do all have to remember that these are opinions which is why I cannot in good conscience name my breeder either here nor in PMs.

I did a google search for "golden retriever breeders in michigan" and I got a huge amount of names that I eventually whittled down to about 4, then I went from there into (literally) months of research.

I am satisfied, please remember that this is my opinion and I hope that others here do the same amount of research and come to their own opinions.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I hope your pup is strong and healthy. I must reiterate that I don't breed, know any breeders or have a personal agenda.

You said you could easily wait for a pup from another pairing. The breeder obviously has questions about this pairing since she is having the male neutered AND if she is selling the pups at a discount it sure sounds like she questions them too.

I'm very glad you are getting a 2 year health warranty, but that won't help the heartache is there are indeed problems in this litter caused either by an unsuitable pairing or something that happened during the pregnancy. In either case - all the pups were potentially exposed.

The discussion degraded from "should I take a pup from this litter" to "should I use this breeder". You have stated your wish to stay with the breeder, but do you really not want to wait for a different litter? I love buying things on sale, but a discount on a puppy because of concerns held by the breeder (if no concerns why the discount?) could backfire so horribly.

There is no 100% guarantee, but you can try to stack the odds in your favor.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

coppers-mom said:


> The discussion degraded from "should I take a pup from this litter" to "should I use this breeder". You have stated your wish to stay with the breeder, but do you really not want to wait for a different litter? I love buying things on sale, but a discount on a puppy because of concerns held by the breeder (if no concerns why the discount?) could backfire so horribly.


True--but all dogs deserve a good home and the OP is willing to take on one of these dogs and the breeder is not a poor breeder then I think OP should go for it.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

newgrmom said:


> I've also spoken with a 3rd vet who has supported the first 2 vets in that there is no reason to believe that a pup from this litter would have any higher chance of having something wrong with it than a pup from any other litter. * All 3 vets did indeed tell me not to purchase a pup if I was planning on breeding a dog from this litter*...I am not, I am looking for a family dog that will be spayed and properly taken care of and loved as a new family member.


I'm assuming that these 3 vets have not yet examined your potential puppy, however based on the line I bolded in your above statement, I take that to mean that the vets don't think that these puppies would be healthy enough to breed. (I'm not endorsing that you do breed the puppy. and obviously there are many many other clearances and stuff that must be done prior to deciding that a pup should be bred.) That statement in itself sure doesn't give me the confidence in the puppies' health! Like it's "ok" if this pup goes to live with a 'pet' family and gets HD or some neurological disorder, or something.

Most vets are _great_ at making sick dogs better, but most vets aren't breeders themselves. They aren't the ones who are doing research on these dogs' lines, or following up on puppies they have sold, etc. Sure they may say that the puppies will be fine because how do they know what kind of litter (healthy or sick) each of their patients came from? How do they know what kind of health history their clients' littermates had?

You came here asking for our opinion. Nearly everyone in this thread (including a handful of very reputable, responsible & very experienced breeders) has said to walk away from this particular litter/pairing and wait for a puppy that has better chances of a healthy life. I wish you luck in whatever decision you decide and I just hope that it does not end in heartache.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

This thread is a perfect example of something that happens all the time on this forum. Someone who already has their mind made up about a situation, comes here to ask for advice and opinions from the extensive knowledge base the forum provides, then when they don't get the opinion they are looking for act like they came in with all the right answers and we're left wondering why they even decided to post in the first place if they weren't looking for a real discussion and don't even seem to consider the advice given. 

To the OP, I sure do hope your puppy is happy and healthy.. no one here wishes to be proven right that a puppy from this litter could be a big mistake both emotionally and financially. I know all about wanting instant gratification, having gotten a puppy from a BYB myself on a spur of the moment whim with no health clearances or guarantees.. but sometimes, and in the case of a lifetime responsibility and decision like a puppy, it's worth waiting.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I may have missed where this was posted. Could you point me to where this breeder did this?


Perhaps my math is off, but if this is the bitch's third litter and she is just 3 years old, I would assume she was under 2 when she was first bred. Therefore, she didn't have her clearances. Or, my math is off. It could be my math... just trying to judge heat cycles, without breeding all three back to back.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

coppers-mom said:


> I hope your pup is strong and healthy. I must reiterate that I don't breed, know any breeders or have a personal agenda.
> 
> You said you could easily wait for a pup from another pairing. The breeder obviously has questions about this pairing since she is having the male neutered AND if she is selling the pups at a discount it sure sounds like she questions them too.
> 
> ...


I really could wait, but I can't find a reason to...my breeder has offered to transfer my deposit to another litter expected later this year because of my concerns. I replied that I was unsure what to do and I would continue to contact vets to see how many I would have to talk to before I found one that told me not to get a pup from this particular litter because of the potential health risks. As you've read I've spoken with 3 different vets (one who I know personally because she was with me when I had to put down my 7 yr old beagle because of spinal issues that were causing him severe pain and paralysis). I've moved from that area, so she is no longer my vet and is not in anyway giving me advice so that I will come to her and spend my money on a sick dog (as pointgold suggested in post #28). The 1st vet was a potential vet though, and, as sad as it is, I considered the same, that is why I went to my old trusted vet, then my 3rd inquiry was with a vet referred to me by a friend who owned goldens.

I seriously intend to continue my phone escapades with vets until I find one with a differing opinion.

As for the discount, its because the dogs cannot be shown or bred not because they are in any way inferior (or unhealthy) pet quality dogs.

Plus, I know that I have the means to (god forbid) take care of an unhealthy dog. If I were to back out of this litter, what would happen to the pup? Would the next person get my fantastically well behaved, healthy puppy (this is just suggesting that my pup from this litter would turn out this way, obviously) or would they get a sickly pup with no means to properly treat any illnesses and eventually put the poor baby down when a quality of life could be had with the proper treatment/medicine/surgery? These are both made-up scenarios...I'm willing to put my trust in my breeder and 3 different vets that I am more likely to get a healthy vibrant puppy that has a fantastic temperament than a dog that will eventually have problems.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I will preface the following by stating I am not endorsing this breeder nor the following practice HOWEVER it IS acceptable and some of the top reproduction vets in the country/world will argue it is the BEST way to ensure the healthiest litters and least amount of danger to the dams.
> 
> A number have commented on the fact that at 3 years of age three litters are too many and unacceptable. Actually many top breeders and reproduction vets feel the opposite. If the bitch cycles every six months then in actuality the bitch could have a litter at 24 months, 30 months and 36 months and that would be assuming the dam in question here is 36 months. Maybe she is 40 months, 44 months or even 47 months - still technically 3 years of age. Again not the practice of most responsible breeders but some do.
> 
> ...


I some how missed this post, and my math was off! I knew breeding fairly close together for 2-3 breedings was preferred, but I think I calculated heat cycles wrong. This is why I'm not a breeder. :


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## alijeanrn (May 7, 2010)

This is really a tuff one. I understand both sides of the argument, having had a sick kitten in the past who despite treatment, didn't make it. This probably sounds sort of stupid, but the few weeks I had with that wonderful, loving, but very sick kitten were priceless. I had a hunch there was something wrong with her almost immediately, but I didn't take her back for fear of what might happen to her if I did. Luckily I had the financial means to provide medical treatment for her, and try to give her a chance, but it didn't take and I lost her. I never felt that I made a mistake in keeping her because she was with a family that loved her in her final days. If you can give this puppy a great home and provide it with the care that it may need (should something go wrong, hopefully not) I think you should go for it. You could be the person who saves it's life.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

missmarstar said:


> This thread is a perfect example of something that happens all the time on this forum. Someone who already has their mind made up about a situation, comes here to ask for advice and opinions from the extensive knowledge base the forum provides, then when they don't get the opinion they are looking for act like they came in with all the right answers and we're left wondering why they even decided to post in the first place if they weren't looking for a real discussion and don't even seem to consider the advice given.
> 
> To the OP, I sure do hope your puppy is happy and healthy.. no one here wishes to be proven right that a puppy from this litter could be a big mistake both emotionally and financially. I know all about wanting instant gratification, having gotten a puppy from a BYB myself on a spur of the moment whim with no health clearances or guarantees.. but sometimes, and in the case of a lifetime responsibility and decision like a puppy, it's worth waiting.


I apologize if you got the impression that I already had my mind made up. I most certainly did not...at the time of my first post I hadn't even been able to verify clearances on the offa.org website (due to my own user ignorance of the website). And I have taken all that has been said here to heart and have considered it as valid advice, along with the medical advice given to me. As I've stated, I do not pretend to know anything about breeding dogs...I am merely trying to find a healthy, pet quality dog from a breeder. I have stated my opinions after doing research, with help from posters on this thread. I would not have gotten to the point I am at without all of this information.

Again, my OPINION was made with the help of this thread...I thought that was why it was here. I have no medical background and I do not breed dogs. I will state again as I did in post #48

"I stand by my OWN findings, with help from a few here in this forum. And I again will say thank you to all that have contributed...I sincerely appreciate all opinions, that is why I came here. We do all have to remember that these are opinions which is why I cannot in good conscience name my breeder either here nor in PMs.

I did a google search for "golden retriever breeders in michigan" and I got a huge amount of names that I eventually whittled down to about 4, then I went from there into (literally) months of research.

*I am satisfied, please remember that this is my opinion and I hope that others here do the same amount of research and come to their own opinions.* "

below is a quote from "MONOMER" from "A Puppy Buyer's Fact Checker" from this website:

"It seems there are many different ideas on what a breeder should be... what 'best practices' actually constitutes a "good breeder"? I don't believe there is a right answer to this question though it seems some members here believe they know. Is it affiliation with a breed standards organization? I could strongly argue on both ends of that issue and I have actually done so in the past. Is it health certs through organizations such as OFA like hip X-rays taken at 2-years of age? There are good arguments out there that so far these have done nothing to reduce the rate of CHD in the breed. Is breeding a dog under a year of age unsound? There are some who have seen no problem with this practice and in fact doing so has not negatively affected their breeding program in any way. As far as I can tell what we really have here boils down to differences of opinion. That's it, just OPINION! This is the unstated crux of all the in-fighting."

"*Arguments about specific breeding practices (ie. importance of AKC, hip X-rays, etc) should then be dealt with in a separate appropriately titled thread in which the merits can be discussed in a civilized and intelligent manner without pointless accusations flying about and character assassinations and innuendo."*

above is a quote from "MONOMER" from "A Puppy Buyer's Fact Checker" from this website


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

alijeanrn said:


> This is really a tuff one. I understand both sides of the argument, having had a sick kitten in the past who despite treatment, didn't make it. This probably sounds sort of stupid, but the few weeks I had with that wonderful, loving, but very sick kitten were priceless. I had a hunch there was something wrong with her almost immediately, but I didn't take her back for fear of what might happen to her if I did. Luckily I had the financial means to provide medical treatment for her, and try to give her a chance, but it didn't take and I lost her. I never felt that I made a mistake in keeping her because she was with a family that loved her in her final days. If you can give this puppy a great home and provide it with the care that it may need (should something go wrong, hopefully not) I think you should go for it. You could be the person who saves it's life.


Thank you


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Someone earlier suggested that not all vets are familiar with genetics and breeding.

Can someone point me in the right direction to get in contact with a vet that is familiar with genetics and breeding?


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

I actually know of a vet who breeds Goldens but not sure she would be able to advise you. 
We all make decisions for what ever reason and some turn out to be amazing and wonderful and others not so great. At this point it seems you have heard a lot of opionions and now you need to follow your instincts.
I wish you the best and hope whatever you decide that you have a joyful, happy, healthy pup...I have one of those and it is delightful!
I also hope this has not tainted your experience to the point that you don't seek advice for your pupster once you get her home. Most puppy owners find their pups to be a bit more of a challenge than they expect and having a forum to discuss ideas and advice is so helpful.
Best to you...


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Good luck in your search. I hope you find a happy, healthy puppy


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Best of luck to you with this puppy. Since I am, apparently incorrrect in my assumption as to who this breeder may be, and you have indicated that she is doing everything right and being honest and fair, why _not _post who it is, so that people will know that she is good? It most certainly would be the opposite of "bad mouthing"...


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

newgrmom said:


> I know the trials and tribulations of having a sick dog and I do NOT want to go through that again. I also have children now that I don't want hurt by the process of caring for a sick dog.


You did a 180° turn around on this statement with your new statement that you can afford medical treatment and might be saving the pup's life. Some or many of the responses were based on this assumption.

I hope you don't have to do anything more than standard health care for the pup. May she have a long and healthy, wonderful life.:crossfing


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

newgrmom said:


> Someone earlier suggested that not all vets are familiar with genetics and breeding.
> 
> Can someone point me in the right direction to get in contact with a vet that is familiar with genetics and breeding?



IowaGold, who is an active member here and multiple golden owner, is a vet.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Alright, since I've been brought up...keep in mind that I am NOT a genetics expert, nor am I a breeder.

I know a golden who was born with 1/2 a tail (as a fellow competitor, not as a patient). She is otherwise fine as far as I know. I do not know what other issues were present in her litter.

There is no telling if the remaining pups will have a problem. Are you looking at one of the short-tailed pups or a "normal" pup? Even though I know an otherwise normal dog with a short tail, I would be hesitant to purchase one of those pups. If all else is fine with the parents' clearances, I *might* consider one of the normal pups if I had no intention to breed (I'd have to really, really like the breeding to consider it, though). In this case the intention to breed isn't because I think the pup would be likely to have a physical problem, it's because I would be worried that a genetic issue may affect the next generation.

So in the long run, it's totally up to you. Like you say, there is no 100% guarantee that *any* pup will be healthy. You ARE, however, dealing with a litter KNOWN to have issues already. Personally I think it would be a smarter thing to choose a litter that doesn't have any abnormalities.

I wish you luck which ever way you choose.


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

Rufus has no tail, just a little nub, with cascading blonde hair growing out of it. He is healthy and happy, and has a huge personality. He "knows" he is just it. But, I did get him for nothing, because of the defect. In every way he is a gorgeous Golden, just no tail.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Sabine said:


> Rufus has no tail, just a little nub, with cascading blonde hair growing out of it. He is healthy and happy, and has a huge personality. He "knows" he is just it. But, I did get him for nothing, because of the defect. In every way he is a gorgeous Golden, just no tail.



Could you post pics??  It's probably pretty cute!! I love Australian Shepherds because of their nubby little tails that wiggle their entire rear end when they are excited!


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

Here is one pic, I can't get him to hold still long enough to get him standing in front of me where you can really tell what it looks like. He was probably about 8 months here.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Thanks Sabine, very very cute


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

You can see he has about 8 or so inches of tail hair, but his nubby is really just a couple of inches long.
He is full grown, sometime last year, so he would have been 3 going on 4.


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

As a puppy, 9 weeks old, the day after we brought him home.


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

He is not physically perfect, but he is the most perfect dog as far as what is on the inside. He is smart, compassionate, loving and a goodwill ambassador wherever he goes.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

BayBeams said:


> I actually know of a vet who breeds Goldens but not sure she would be able to advise you.
> We all make decisions for what ever reason and some turn out to be amazing and wonderful and others not so great. At this point it seems you have heard a lot of opionions and now you need to follow your instincts.
> I wish you the best and hope whatever you decide that you have a joyful, happy, healthy pup...I have one of those and it is delightful!
> I also hope this has not tainted your experience to the point that you don't seek advice for your pupster once you get her home. Most puppy owners find their pups to be a bit more of a challenge than they expect and having a forum to discuss ideas and advice is so helpful.
> Best to you...


Thank you This has not tainted my experience. There are people's opinions and they feel strongly about them, as they should and as do I. This is why I came here and I am glad I did.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

nixietink said:


> IowaGold, who is an active member here and multiple golden owner, is a vet.


Great! thank you


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

IowaGold said:


> Alright, since I've been brought up...keep in mind that I am NOT a genetics expert, nor am I a breeder.
> 
> I know a golden who was born with 1/2 a tail (as a fellow competitor, not as a patient). She is otherwise fine as far as I know. I do not know what other issues were present in her litter.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much!! I really appreciate you posting. I am looking at the 2 females which have normal tails and in all outside appearances are perfectly normal. I have absolutely no intent to breed (or show for that matter), I am looking for a family pet. I'm still a little wishy washy knowing that I have the option to transfer my deposit to the next litter of pups my breeder is expecting from a different female of my breeder and an outside male.

I really do want a healthy pup and don't want to go through the pain (again) of having an unheathly pup, BUT...don't want to have something bad happen to these pups either if they were sold to someone else who didn't have to means to help them (although I guess that should fall into the hands of my breeder adopting them out to a family fit to raise them).


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Best of luck to you with this puppy. Since I am, apparently incorrrect in my assumption as to who this breeder may be, and you have indicated that she is doing everything right and being honest and fair, why _not _post who it is, so that people will know that she is good? It most certainly would be the opposite of "bad mouthing"...


I won't/can't post out of respect for my breeder's wishes. I trust them and they trust me.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

newgrmom said:


> I won't/can't post out of respect for my breeder's wishes. I trust them and they trust me.


That's very nice. I hope that your trust is not misplaced and that you are not again having to deal with an unhealthy puppy. Frankly, I am not at all sure why you started this thread, as it would appear that nothing anyone here had to offer carried any weight, and you'd made your decision prior to posting.
Again, good luck.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Sabine said:


> Here is one pic, I can't get him to hold still long enough to get him standing in front of me where you can really tell what it looks like. He was probably about 8 months here.


he is too cute


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> That's very nice. I hope that your trust is not misplaced and that you are not again having to deal with an unhealthy puppy. Frankly, I am not at all sure why you started this thread, as it would appear that nothing anyone here had to offer carried any weight, and you'd made your decision prior to posting.
> Again, good luck.


All posts have carried weight in my mind and have helped me. I still have not made up my mind 100% (about this litter, not this breeder). I'm wishy washy and a big lover of dogs. I don't want to see something bad happen to a pup because it is not properly cared for (again, this should not rest in my hands, but in the hands of the breeder to find a suitable family for all pups). I also don't want to go through the heartache of caring for a sick dog...so there's my dilema...wash my hands of this litter and hope for the best for the pups, move on and get a better "chance" of a healthy pup, or go with my current "chance" of a healthy pup (from a litter with known problems) and possibly make sure that the puppy gets proper treatment for any future health problems...

Because of my kids...my heart tells me I need to keep them first and go with the better "chance" of a healthy pup from a future litter, even though I will feel guilt if I found out something detrimental happened to these pups.

My head tells me to take the medical advice (of 3 out of 4 vets, thank you IowaGold for a differing opinion...I needed to hear that) and go with this litter.

I'm also type A, extremely anal and need all the "facts" from qualified people. That's why I consulted with vets. But, I have a heart and I believe that breeder's definately have something to share as well...reason I came here.

forever wishy washy,
soon to be a new gr mommy (maybe now, maybe later)


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## Rochester (Apr 6, 2010)

*I'd go with one of these pups, feeling the way you do...*

These puppies need a home. The breeder is offering you a discounted price because she knows that they come with some baggage, i.e., if she is honest with potential buyers, they will have some misgivings, so she reduced the price to assuage the misgivings to the extent that this is possible.

I certainly don't know anything about breeding or golden retriever genetics. I've bought from back yard breeders. The fact remains, that these puppies need a home, and no matter how much she charges, all the way down to "free," there is a risk of heartbreak. Isn't it almost just as heartbreaking knowing that these pups might not get a home because there "might" be something wrong with them? There is almost always a chance of heartbreak. If we aren't willing to risk it, sometimes we deprive ourselves of the greatest joy imaginable.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Hey Sabine - I think Rufus is a darling.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> I will preface the following by stating I am not endorsing this breeder nor the following practice HOWEVER it IS acceptable and some of the top reproduction vets in the country/world will argue it is the BEST way to ensure the healthiest litters and least amount of danger to the dams.
> 
> A number have commented on the fact that at 3 years of age three litters are too many and unacceptable. Actually many top breeders and reproduction vets feel the opposite. If the bitch cycles every six months then in actuality the bitch could have a litter at 24 months, 30 months and 36 months and that would be assuming the dam in question here is 36 months. Maybe she is 40 months, 44 months or even 47 months - still technically 3 years of age. Again not the practice of most responsible breeders but some do.
> 
> ...





MillysMom said:


> Perhaps my math is off, but if this is the bitch's third litter and she is just 3 years old, I would assume she was under 2 when she was first bred. Therefore, she didn't have her clearances. Or, my math is off. It could be my math... just trying to judge heat cycles, without breeding all three back to back.


By my above post your math may not be wrong but to assume as you have is not really correct in my opinion. 
And it would not need to be 3 back to back - although highly likely it is. Bred at 25 months bred at 31 months not bred at 37 months bred a 3rd time at 43 months. Dog could have it's clearance at 25 months and would be 3 years 7 months at the time of third breeding. with one cycle skipped and the bitch cycling every 6 months or less.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If this is a good breeder, and you certainly feel she is, rest assured that those pups will have a loving home with her for as long as necessary. This is one of the unfortunate eventualities that all breeders prepare for. I am sure she will keep all of the pups either until a loving home can be found. I know I have done this in the past, with a liver shunt puppy. I was actually prepared to keep her for the rest of her life, until someone met her (when she was almost a year old and her liver values had stabilized) and fell in love with her, knowing full well she would not live a normal life. She had no young children to worry about, was retired and her son was a vet-a win/win situation. Abby had a very happy 7 years of life, was loved and loved in return.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

It is the "need to rescue the poorly breed puppy" that keeps bad breeders in business. That is the sad truth.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Tahnee GR said:


> If this is a good breeder, and you certainly feel she is, rest assured that those pups will have a loving home with her for as long as necessary. This is one of the unfortunate eventualities that all breeders prepare for. I am sure she will keep all of the pups either until a loving home can be found. I know I have done this in the past, with a liver shunt puppy. I was actually prepared to keep her for the rest of her life, until someone met her (when she was almost a year old and her liver values had stabilized) and fell in love with her, knowing full well she would not live a normal life. She had no young children to worry about, was retired and her son was a vet-a win/win situation. Abby had a very happy 7 years of life, was loved and loved in return.


I never thought of it that way...I appreciate the insight


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## PC Mom (Oct 30, 2009)

Tahnee GR said:


> If this is a good breeder, and you certainly feel she is, rest assured that those pups will have a loving home with her for as long as necessary... I am sure she will keep all of the pups either until a loving home can be found.


This is exactly what I was thinking. A good breeder has a bad litter now and then, just like a bad breeder sometimes has a good one. She seems to be taking all of the right steps to prevent this from happening. It also appears that she is being completely honest with you regarding the litter and given you all of the information you ask for. 

I had a situation with my puppy in which the breeder (who picked the dog for you), did temperament testing and felt that the pup who would fit our family best had a major flaw. He has an underbite, which is a disqualification in confirmation showing, and although I had no desire to do that, she felt that it was a big deal. (Might have had something to do with the fact that my husband is an orthodontist and so she was worried about what he'd think about having a dog with bad teeth!  When I posted here about my dilemma, do I take the dog with the bad teeth who otherwise is perfect or wait, people were very impressed with the breeder's honesty. Granted, and this is big IMHO, this is purely a cosmetic issue and doesn't affect his lifestyle or longevity-it's even getting better now that his adult teeth are coming in.

I have 2 young kids as well. My boys dealt with the death of our 8 year old Golden just 2 weeks before Duke came. It was terrible. However, they also learned some good lessons about compassion and not underestimating someone just because of a disability. The lessons weren't easy, but they were valuable. McGwire was sick his whole life, the result of bad breeding, and it was extremely stressful for us. We are like you, and could afford to provide the best care for him, but his quality of life was never as good as it should have been. As hard as it is to say, in some ways, his death was a relief, I was relieved that he wasn't suffering any more. 

I guess I'm trying to tell you this story because I understand both sides of it. You've asked the vets about the dogs. Have you asked the breeder, if she was in your situation (with the kids and having dealt with a dog with long term health issues) what she would do? (and why?) Are you sure that one of these females is the best temperament dog for you? What are her plans for the pups if you don't take one? Even if she doesn't have a waiting list, her answer might tell you more about her that either confirms your positive impression or gives you reason to doubt. 

I sincerely wish you the best in your decision!

SABINE- your dog is AWESOME! I love it!


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

Thank you, I have to agree.


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

newgrmom said:


> I'm willing to put my trust in my breeder and 3 different vets that I am more likely to get a healthy vibrant puppy that has a fantastic temperament than a dog that will eventually have problems.


Just curious, then why did you come here asking for our opinions?

I agree with MissMarstar that this is becoming a common occurance of people posting for advice but not really wanting to hear what we have to say...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I read a lot of folks questioning the reason the OP posted her question. Here is one thought

Might she had wondered if there was any "definitive" evidence, one way or the other, that the remaining pups from this litter would be healthy/unhealthy based on what occurred with the other pups in this litter?  And unfortunately there is no "definitive" answer, none of us can say with any certainty what the future holds for the remaining pups.

Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to judge.


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> I read a lot of folks questioning the reason the OP posted her question. Here is one thought
> 
> Might she had wondered if there was any "definitive" evidence, one way or the other, that the remaining pups from this litter would be healthy/unhealthy based on what occurred with the other pups in this litter?  And unfortunately there is no "definitive" answer, none of us can say with any certainty what the future holds for the remaining pups.
> 
> Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to judge.


Makes sense! Like I said I was curious.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

damita said:


> Just curious, then why did you come here asking for our opinions?
> 
> I agree with MissMarstar that this is becoming a common occurance of people posting for advice but not really wanting to hear what we have to say...


 
I had not spoken with vets prior to posting my first question. I came here looking for the opinions of non-vets that were familiar with goldens, especially breeders, as to the future health of these puppies, then I also made calls to vets for a medical opinion. After my first post I also did an awful lot of google searches and internet research.

All of the above lead up to posts #48, #57 and #79
The quote you grabbed is from post #54. I had read 53 posts before making that statement.



A couple questions I never asked (not sure why):

Have any breeders out there had or seen kinked tails or stub tails in a litter?

If yes, did any pups from that litter with normal tails have any future medical issues linked to the littermates kink or stub tail?

Have any breeders out there had or seen imperforate anus (no anus) in a litter?

If yes, were you giving your female any form of Ivomec or Ivermectin?

If yes, did any of the surviving puppies ever develop medical problems that were found to be related to the imperforate anus?

Have any breeders had puppies from a litter die within a few days of being born but seen the surviving littermates thrive and live long healthy lives?


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

LOL @ PG. I know that you were assuming and pointing the finger in my direction, but this IS NOT a litter of my breeding. Although, if you would like to know who it is, I can sure tell you if you PM me.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> LOL @ PG. I know that you were assuming and pointing the finger in my direction, but this IS NOT a litter of my breeding. Although, if you would like to know who it is, I can sure tell you if you PM me.


You do not need to assume anything, Rebecca. Thank you very much. I know who it is.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Standard in most good breeders' contracts is a clause that allows you to keep the pup for a few days and have a thorough wellness exam. If the vet finds something out of the ordinary, you can return the dog. I would take the pup to one, or even two vets who know the whole story of the other puppies' birth defects, and ask for a very thorough exam. Obviously the vet won't be able to see things like subtle spine problems in a basic exam, but you should be able to get yourself some peace of mind. 

And, if really serious problems get found, then you have the opportunity to return the pup. Even if you want to take responsibility for a very sick dog, you can at least get your money back from the breeder and offer to be the person who takes care of the pup for as much time as he has.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A good, caring breeder will take a dog back any time, at any age. No matter the reason. In fact, a good, caring breeder insists upon it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

newgrmom said:


> I've had two separate vets (based on the information about the litter alone) tell me that if they were me, they would still go ahead and purchase a dog from this litter. I also gave them more specifics into the breeder's way of doing things and both vets, AGAIN, assured me that there is no wrong doing here and that the breeder indeed seems to be on the up and up. . . I'm trying my best to get a healthy dog that will be great family dog. . .
> I seriously intend to continue my phone escapades with vets until I find one with a differing opinion.


It's absolutely great if you choose a pup from this litter with open eyes, but rather than trying your best to find a healthy baby, I think it is more accurate to say you are taking at worst a gamble and at best an educated risk. I don't have the first clue about why you would take a chance on a family member for whom you will be responsible and with whom you will share your days hopefully for more than a decade, but it is absolutely your decision. It is a little reckless to disregard the advice of the collective here as literally 100's of years of experience are represented by the posts that answer your questions, but that is really up to you. You have a chance to choose a hundred percent healthy puppy with no grey area issues. Why would you not? I am just bewildered by what keeps you so intent on selecting a puppy from a litter about which you have any questions. I've had healthy pups and pups with challenges, and the difference in peace of mind is indescribable so I won't even try. I went for a hike with my good friend who is an awesome vet(went to upenn vet school) and she said that no one could/would give a definitive opinion over the phone without seeing the litter and the medical histories. I would not make random phone call "escapades" to unknown vets as a way of deciding something so serious.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> A good, caring breeder will take a dog back any time, at any age. No matter the reason. In fact, a good, caring breeder insists upon it.


A good breeder will take a dog back at any time, but I don't think most will refund the full purchase price as well, except under certain conditions.

A typical clause in a good breeder's contract allows a short period for the buyer to return the puppy for the full purchase price if a problem shows up in the wellness exam. I should have been clearer in my post that I was referring to this financial arrangement.

Also since we don't know if this breeder is a good breeder or not (though you do, apparently), and since the OP is apparently going to take this dog, then the OP should be sure that this clause exists in the contract, and the OP should exercise it. Even if this breeder is otherwise "good" and "caring."


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> Standard in most good breeders' contracts is a clause that allows you to keep the pup for a few days and have a thorough wellness exam. If the vet finds something out of the ordinary, you can return the dog. I would take the pup to one, or even two vets who know the whole story of the other puppies' birth defects, and ask for a very thorough exam. Obviously the vet won't be able to see things like subtle spine problems in a basic exam, but you should be able to get yourself some peace of mind.
> 
> And, if really serious problems get found, then you have the opportunity to return the pup. Even if you want to take responsibility for a very sick dog, you can at least get your money back from the breeder and offer to be the person who takes care of the pup for as much time as he has.


There is a clause in the contract that states the buyer has 3 days to have the pup examined by their own vet (or vets). If there were a medical problem or the pup was not healthy, the pup can be returned for a full refund.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> A good, caring breeder will take a dog back any time, at any age. No matter the reason. In fact, a good, caring breeder insists upon it.


There is a clause in the contract that states the pup MUST be returned to the breeder at any time should the adoption fail, for any reason.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> It's absolutely great if you choose a pup from this litter with open eyes, but rather than trying your best to find a healthy baby, I think it is more accurate to say you are taking at worst a gamble and at best an educated risk. I don't have the first clue about why you would take a chance on a family member for whom you will be responsible and with whom you will share your days hopefully for more than a decade, but it is absolutely your decision. It is a little reckless to disregard the advice of the collective here as literally 100's of years of experience are represented by the posts that answer your questions, but that is really up to you. You have a chance to choose a hundred percent healthy puppy with no grey area issues. Why would you not? I am just bewildered by what keeps you so intent on selecting a puppy from a litter about which you have any questions. I've had healthy pups and pups with challenges, and the difference in peace of mind is indescribable so I won't even try. I went for a hike with my good friend who is an awesome vet(went to upenn vet school) and she said that no one could/would give a definitive opinion over the phone without seeing the litter and the medical histories. I would not make random phone call "escapades" to unknown vets as a way of deciding something so serious.


I have in no way disregarded the advice from anyone in this thread, as I've previously mentioned. I have taken it and analyzed it and used it along with other information to form an opinion, as I've previously mentioned. Please see my previous threads as I've addressed this issue on at least two separate occasions.

There were vets who did indeed hear the situation just as you all have and who did indeed give me educated advice (i.e. an opinion, just as you all have) none said anything about a medical diagnosis or as you called it a definitive opinion, over the phone without examining the pups...3 different vets from 3 different areas, Ann Arbor, Hamburg Twp, and Southfield.

Only one vet was random, as I mentioned in an earlier post, one was my own trusted vet, as mentioned earlier, and the other was recommended by a friend who owned goldens who knew the vet had owned goldens.

Plus one vet here on this thread has given an opinion.

Any vet is just as qualified as anyone on this thread to give advice, or opinions, over the phone about pups and problems. I don't believe that I ever suggested that the vets I spoke with by phone gave me anything more than an opinion...if I did, I apologize, it was unintentional.

There is no way to definitively say that I would not get a 100% healthy pup from this litter. That would be shown to be true or not after a complete exam by a vet (during which I've been suggested to have a complete blood workup done).


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

I posted the 100th post !

Do I win a prize :?


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## ckp (Mar 26, 2009)

BeauShel said:


> I am not going to tell you if this is normal or whether you should get a dog from this breeder but I would think long and hard on this. For me I would walk away. It is not a risk that I would want to take. There are just too many red flags.
> 
> I say this because a member here got a dog wanting a fun and healthy puppy. She did her research and thought she did everything right. But her puppy was not healthy. She did everything she could for her dog for the longest time trying to keep her healthy, doing surgeries, giving her meds but this sweet puppy never got to live a full life as a golden. And unfortunately she was put down when she was only around 15 months. It was in the best interest in her dog. There could have been several more surgeries but there was no guarantee that they would help. They gave her everything but it was not enough and it was due to no fault of their own. Her family went thru so much pain and heartache. It took them some time to get over the pain and start the look for another dog and luckily they found a new dog but not a puppy but a full grown dog.
> 
> Think long and hard about this and ask that breeder if they are prepared to help if there are problems with the dogs. If not then that would also answer it for me.


Sorry to hijack this thread...but BeauShel, I believe you are talking about my Apple?? I started crying when I was reading your post....

It is so hard when it comes to puppies - especially when you have great expectations of a healthy dog and then it turns out your pup is everything but healthy. 

In my opinion, this litter of pups has WAY too many red flags, and even though the original poster may trust the breeder - there is more red flags than green flags in this litter (for lack of better words!). 

I hope this member makes the best decision for his/her family - whatever it may be. Please know from a person who cared for, and loved beyond words - an extremely ill golden - that it is an excruciatingly difficult thing to go through.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Is there a point, in naming the breeder? If those who know, say yes, then why not do it, so if someone comes here, looking for information, on breeders, they would know right off the bat. These are my thoughts.


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## MidasMom (Jun 2, 2010)

Oh crap, I am in Michigan and am getting another golden pup. My pups are due end of June. I dont think this as at all the same breeder, but does make me curious for sure because if I knew all that stuff was going on I would avoid it like the plague. Sorry, just my opinion


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

This, is what i think, those in the know, should post on forum, if i were getting a pup, in MI., i sure would what to know.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

MidasMom said:


> Oh crap, I am in Michigan and am getting another golden pup. My pups are due end of June. I dont think this as at all the same breeder, but does make me curious for sure because if I knew all that stuff was going on I would avoid it like the plague. Sorry, just my opinion



Curious what is meant by "if I knew all that stuff was going on"? While I would not take a pup from the litter the original poster is considering, I have yet to see anything that would indicate the breeder was doing anything wrong.


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## GoldenFan (Dec 14, 2009)

hate reading stories like these...there are good breeders and bad breeders...there are good breeders that have bad litters...sometimes health is just luck of the draw...all true...nevertheless, ALL the pups need good homes...so it sounds to me like you just need to decide what risk you are willing to take (emotionally, financially, etc.)...only you know the answer to that question...good luck with your decision - it certainly is a tough one...


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

ckp said:


> I hope this member makes the best decision for his/her family - whatever it may be. Please know from a person who cared for, and loved beyond words - an extremely ill golden - that it is an excruciatingly difficult thing to go through.


I saw this fight only through Apple's threads, but it was a truly heartbreaking situation.


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## MidasMom (Jun 2, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> Curious what is meant by "if I knew all that stuff was going on"? While I would not take a pup from the litter the original poster is considering, I have yet to see anything that would indicate the breeder was doing anything wrong.


 All I meant by saying "all that stuff going on" is just everything with this particular litter. I would steer clear of gettting a pup from this particular litter. I know nothing of this breeder or even who they are or whether they are good or bad or just had some unfortunate luck on a litter. I meant nothing negative towards anyone, just voicing how I feel and my concerns. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

MidasMom said:


> All I meant by saying "all that stuff going on" is just everything with this particular litter. I would steer clear of gettting a pup from this particular litter. I know nothing of this breeder or even who they are or whether they are good or bad or just had some unfortunate luck on a litter. I meant nothing negative towards anyone, just voicing how I feel and my concerns. Nothing more, nothing less.



:dblthumb2!!!


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Although I am in no way an experienced breeder, I have done a lot of reading on the rearing of litters & in almost every book I've read (including GR books) there is mention of the defects that the OP mentioned as being present in this litter.

So the defects mentioned do occur, how often I have no idea. As the OP has asked, I too am wondering how often these things occur? 

...and could such defects occur due to something happening to the bitch during pregnancy? Has there been research which shows these problems are hereditary? I haven't found any evidence to point in either direction.

My main concern would be that there are so many puppies in the litter with a deformity of some sort. Having puppies die during the first few days is totally normal and not such a concern.

The fact that the breeder is going to castrate the dog suggests she thinks it's down to the dog? I'm in fact wondering whether the bitch may have been given some kind of medication during a critical stage in the pup's development which may be the cause...

I'm not holding myself up to be any kind of expert, I am mainly interested in learning myself.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Tanyac I think yo have raised good questions and I do not have THE answers as I do not believe anyone knows. Yes these defects can and do occur but I am not aware of them happening with any regularity.
As far as the the dog being neutered this is MY take and total speculation as to why. The bitch has had two litters before this and I am assuming with out any issues of consequence. So the breeder "feels" confident the problem was not her. Now that could be the case or it could have been it was the "combination" of this sire with her that brought this about, or countless other issues such as you raise in your post. 
This was the sire's first litter and due to the outcome she does not feel comfortable using him again so she is neutering him. Not all breeders, even ones considered responsible, would necessarily do this and might try again with this boy and see what happens. There have been instances where the "top" sires of the day have produced litters with disastrous outcomes and still sired other litters afterward.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Good luck to you in finding a healthy, sweet puppy.


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

I originally asked these questions in my post #91, I was not asking rhetorically but hoping to get a reply from all of the breeders that have posted on this thread already...maybe I should start a new thread to address these questions.

A couple questions I never asked (not sure why):

Have any breeders out there had or seen kinked tails or stub tails in a litter?

If yes, did any pups from that litter with normal tails have any future medical issues linked to the littermates kink or stub tail?

Have any breeders out there had or seen imperforate anus (no anus) in a litter?

If yes, were you giving your female any form of Ivomec or Ivermectin?

If yes, did any of the surviving puppies ever develop medical problems that were found to be related to the imperforate anus?

Have any breeders had puppies from a litter die within a few days of being born but seen the surviving littermates thrive and live long healthy lives?


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

ckp said:


> Sorry to hijack this thread...but BeauShel, I believe you are talking about my Apple?? I started crying when I was reading your post....
> 
> It is so hard when it comes to puppies - especially when you have great expectations of a healthy dog and then it turns out your pup is everything but healthy.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry you had to go through that  and I appreciate your concern. Thanks for posting.


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## sophiesadiehannah's mom (Feb 11, 2007)

i am no expert, i repeat i am no expert, i have been following this thread and have decided to put my 2 cents in. i would never knowingly purchase a dog who came from a litter such as this. i think you may be setting up you and your family for heartbreak. you say you can afford to care for a sick dog, do you really want to do that? the economy is rapidly changing, what you may afford today, next month you may not. you live in mi. one of the highest rates of unemployment and underemployment in the u.s. if you have the need to help a special needs golden, there are certainly a number out there who would love a loving home. if your breeder wants to give you one of the pups, that is a different story. good luck in your decision


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Being from MI nad knowing that one day I will be looking for another pup...I hope that soem of the members that know who this breeder is and most likely the dogs involved will remember this. And help me make sure I'm not getting a pup related to either of these dogs. 

I'm already dealing with raising a dog that is not "healthy". And while I have been incredibly lucky with Tinkerbell, its not a chance I want to take again. I don't see anyway I could be as lucky again. So I'll be looking to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible.


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## MidasMom (Jun 2, 2010)

marshab1 said:


> Being from MI nad knowing that one day I will be looking for another pup...I hope that soem of the members that know who this breeder is and most likely the dogs involved will remember this. And help me make sure I'm not getting a pup related to either of these dogs.
> 
> I'm already dealing with raising a dog that is not "healthy". And while I have been incredibly lucky with Tinkerbell, its not a chance I want to take again. I don't see anyway I could be as lucky again. So I'll be looking to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible.


Amen! I couldnt agree with you more. I am also from Michigan and I AM getting another puppy. They are due the end of this month. I hope and pray I did right this time around in my breeder selection. I refer to this forum for help a lot and I also want to stack the odds in my favor. Always nice to get help from you wonderful people out there on what breeders to steer clear of.


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## PC Mom (Oct 30, 2009)

Did you ever ask the breeder what she would do in your situation? 

The only other question I can answer for you since I'm not a breeder is have about puppies dieing early on and other littermates thriving. Yes, it happens all the time. But that doesn't mean that this litter is the right one for you.

How old are the puppies now?


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## newgrmom (Jun 11, 2010)

PC Mom said:


> Did you ever ask the breeder what she would do in your situation?
> 
> The only other question I can answer for you since I'm not a breeder is have about puppies dieing early on and other littermates thriving. Yes, it happens all the time. But that doesn't mean that this litter is the right one for you.
> 
> How old are the puppies now?


Yes, I did ask, someone earlier made the same suggestion and it sounded like a good idea to me. They said if they were me, and looking for a healthy pup and not looking to breed, they would go ahead with one of the females from this litter...BUT...

They also offered to give me a pick from another litter planned for later this year if I still had concerns about this litter.

The pups are a little over 3 weeks old. I'm planning to visit again next week.

Thanks for answering one of my questions from above. Do you think that I'll get more of a response to those questions if I start a new thread? I'm thinking that many of the breeders in this thread have "given up" on me for forming an opinion that doesn't match up with their advice and may not be viewing this thread anymore

or they may just not want to answer the questions because of some of the attitudes toward my breeder because of the problems in this litter.

Thanks to annef and Tahnee GR for answering these questions before I even asked them much earlier in this thread.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

I am coming into this thread late ...my foundation bitch had a small kink at the end of her tail, she did produce it in her 2 litters, I think one in each, not drastic kinks and you would never know if you didnt run your hand to the tip...tail carriage was normal, no health effects from it...I have not seen it in any of the progeny that goes back to her that I have had over the years in my breeding program. The anus problem I would be more concerned with. As I have just briefly read this thread I am not sure if you have decided to take a pup or not ...Good luck in your decision


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

newgrmom said:


> Have any breeders had puppies from a litter die within a few days of being born but seen the surviving littermates thrive and live long healthy lives?


I think every breeder out there has had this happen if they have bred enough, many factors come into play, we go to great lengths sometimes to save a puppy that perhaps may have had underlying issues, I shall use an example of one of Adi's litters, there was a little pup who was struggling, he was smaller, weaker to nurse, I tube-fed, kept him in a hot box, spent 4 days doctoring this wee one, all the while Adi watched me, accepted him when I put him in to be cleaned etc, her eyes told me my efforts were useless, but I wouldn't give up. *I* finally accepted his little life was not to be, and gently helped him to the bridge...he most likely would have passed much sooner without my measures...all the others in this litter thrived. 

Breeding is not for the faint of heart, and sadly even in the best planned litters with healthy cleared parents, $*#! happens. We lose puppies, moms, deal with mastitis, on and on and on ...there are days when I ask myself WHY do I do this? ....

....and then I go and snuggle with a healthy litter, or answer a clients email, view a picture of one of my puppies loving life with their new family, have an arcane doggie come back to visit, and my question is answered!!!!


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## Dawnie (May 24, 2010)

arcane said:


> ....and then I go and snuggle with a healthy litter, or answer a clients email, view a picture of one of my puppies loving life with their new family, have an arcane doggie come back to visit, and my question is answered!!!!


BEAUTIFULLY said!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

arcane said:


> I am coming into this thread late ...my foundation bitch had a small kink at the end of her tail, she did produce it in her 2 litters, I think one in each, not drastic kinks and you would never know if you didnt run your hand to the tip...tail carriage was normal, no health effects from it...I have not seen it in any of the progeny that goes back to her that I have had over the years in my breeding program. The anus problem I would be more concerned with. As I have just briefly read this thread I am not sure if you have decided to take a pup or not ...Good luck in your decision


I had heard (old wives tale  )that the further down the tail, the kink was, the less likely there were to be issues. 

One kinked tail occasionally, even a stub tail, in a litter don't worry me too much. In this litter, it is the sheer number of issues that concerns me. We've all experienced those "litters from hell" who seem just perfect and then develops early cancer, or seizure or, in my case, the relatively mild issue of juvenile cataracts in every male in the litter.

If it was exposure to a chemical or a drug, then the possibility of the seemingly normal puppies having problems later is higher. And again, the sheer number of issues in one litter concerns me. It is a risk and I think each individual has to weigh the risk for their own situation, and their family.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> I had heard (old wives tale  )that the further down the tail, the kink was, the less likely there were to be issues.
> 
> One kinked tail occasionally, even a stub tail, in a litter don't worry me too much. In this litter, it is the sheer number of issues that concerns me. We've all experienced those "litters from hell" who seem just perfect and then develops early cancer, or seizure or, in my case, the relatively mild issue of juvenile cataracts in every male in the litter.
> 
> If it was exposure to a chemical or a drug, then the possibility of the seemingly normal puppies having problems later is higher. And again, the sheer number of issues in one litter concerns me. It is a risk and I think each individual has to weigh the risk for their own situation, and their family.


Totally agree Linda! This is not a litter I would take from as there are many wonderful quality litters/breeders available..just my 02$ why set yourself up for issues before you are even out of the starting gate?


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Got a question, if someone comes here to ask about who ever this breeder is, getting puppy from them, i hope those who know, will let them know about this thread.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

goldensrbest said:


> Got a question, if someone comes here to ask about who ever this breeder is, getting puppy from them, i hope those who know, will let them know about this thread.



I have to ask why? I have read nothing that indicates the breeder being discussed is not a responsible breeder. All I have read is that this litter has issues. And from what has been posted here that breeder has taken extreme precaution to ensure it does not occur again - sire has been neutered and the bitch will not be bred again. What more would you recommend?


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Really, that was not the impression, i got from most the post, about the age of the sire, and how many litters the mom has had in a matter of three years, if my impression is wrong, then my mistake.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> I will preface the following by stating I am not endorsing this breeder nor the following practice HOWEVER it IS acceptable and some of the top reproduction vets in the country/world will argue it is the BEST way to ensure the healthiest litters and least amount of danger to the dams.
> 
> A number have commented on the fact that at 3 years of age three litters are too many and unacceptable. Actually many top breeders and reproduction vets feel the opposite. If the bitch cycles every six months then in actuality the bitch could have a litter at 24 months, 30 months and 36 months and that would be assuming the dam in question here is 36 months. Maybe she is 40 months, 44 months or even 47 months - still technically 3 years of age. Again not the practice of most responsible breeders but some do.
> 
> ...





AmbikaGR said:


> By my above post your math may not be wrong but to assume as you have is not really correct in my opinion.
> And it would not need to be 3 back to back - although highly likely it is. Bred at 25 months bred at 31 months not bred at 37 months bred a 3rd time at 43 months. Dog could have it's clearance at 25 months and would be 3 years 7 months at the time of third breeding. with one cycle skipped and the bitch cycling every 6 months or less.





goldensrbest said:


> Really, that was not the impression, i got from most the post, about the age of the sire, and how many litters the mom has had in a matter of three years, if my impression is wrong, then my mistake.



By my two previous posts above it shows that the bitch could have three litters, all after the age of two with clearances and not even be bred on three successive cycles. As for the sire it was "speculated" that someone knew who the sire was and that they had sired litters before and was under two. The OP stated that was not he case.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

AmbikaGR said:


> I have to ask why? I have read nothing that indicates the breeder being discussed is not a responsible breeder. All I have read is that this litter has issues. And from what has been posted here that breeder has taken extreme precaution to ensure it does not occur again - sire has been neutered and the bitch will not be bred again. What more would you recommend?


I have to agree with Hank here. Bad things can happen to good breeders, as well as to poor breeders. The issues described here are not the type of things you can get clearances for and, barring bad animal husbandry (vaccinating a pregnant bitch or allowing exposure to hazardous chemicals, for example) there's not a lot a breeder can do except to make sure the breeding isn't repeated and, if the cause is not known, not breeding the offspring.

I don't know who the breeder is, so I can't speak to whether or not she is a responsible breeder but I can't condemn her on what I have read so far. It's still not a litter I would recommend to a puppy buyer but I don't know about the breeder herself.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

That is good, i can stop thinking about any heartache, a potential buyer could have, i hope all works out for all. I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BREEDING.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I just read this whole thread and (with the caveat that I know very little about breeding/genetics) this is my take. There's nothing to suggest that this breeder isn't on the "up and up" but maybe this is one of those situations where "bad things happen to a good breeder." It sounds like that happens - and does happen - to even the best of breeders. And it sounds she's taken steps not to repeat the breeding or breed either of the parents again....which is a good thing. As to the advice from vets you've called ....well, I'd take all of it with a grain of salt. I've received some pretty interesting advice from vets in the past with all my pets - specifically the first vet we took our Jack to when he was a little pup. And without examining or knowing the exact details (plus not specializing in the issue presented to them) I don't know how they can give much of a medical opinion on the litter. But that's really not the most important thing in my mind. I know I'm a little late to the game here on the advice, but here's my thought, do you want to be the recipient of the "bad thing to happen to a good breeder"? I don't think I would. I would take her offer to transfer your deposit to the "good thing happening to a good breeder" litter to do your best to ensure that your dog has a long and happy life with your family. Just my 2 cents. Good luck with your decision.


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