# just when you think you know your dog



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

A smashing recall is your good friend in cases like that!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BTW - very important to watch the timing of your corrections. Very likely that the delay between the time he launched and the time it took you to run over there and scruff him resulted in a confused dog not really sure what he was being corrected for.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ah quizzini, both all too true. I was so dumbfounded, I didn't even think to call him. He was just standing there. Not moving. Next thing he was airborne.
As far as the correction, did you read the thread a couple weeks ago when I corrected him at the wrong time and ended up with him terrified of the dumbell? Luckily we worked thru that before his shows....but I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. This time before I corrected him I made sure it was not done in ANGER, and I realized he might think I was correcting him for greeting the other dogs, which would be an acceptable mistake and would serve the purpose to some extent, too.
I commented later that I wished to heck the ring gate had fallen over when he did it, or that I had been standing close enough to KNOCK it over, as that probably would have scared the bejesus out of him and he'd never jump a ring gate again!
The just like to remind us every so often that we have no clue what they're going to do NEXT!
But I'm rather worried about him doing it in a show now that he knows how easy it is to do....


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't mean to sound critical, but I don't understand why, after you had a pretty bad reaction in the past, you would scruff and shake him again. From what you said in your past thread about his reaction to your doing that, a firm verbal correction would have probably worked as well, if not better. His tucking his tail would tell you that. I am not involved in competitions, but it would seem to me that if I got so stressed over something like that, that I would rather not be involved in them. 

Sorry, that's just my opinion after taking a few agility classes with both Danny and Jasper. The classes I took were called "Fun with Agility" and that's what it was. I guess I am not cut out to compete.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I did the scruff shake because what he did was VERY dangerous. If he were to leave the show ring and approach other dogs, there's no telling if one would take his nose off. Worse yet, he could go out an open door and be lost forever.
I'm not a big fan of harsh corrections, but when one of my dogs does something that I think endangers him then I pull out all the stops. I want him to NEVER, EVER think of going over a gate (or running into a street) again.
JMO, of course, but that's why I did it.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

What I would do is set him up in a safe situation. Put pertty girls on the other side of the gate and make it a teachable moment. Just as we train them to do things in this case you need to teach him NOT to do something. So make a training plan with you doing "regular" stuff but the purpose is to proof attention and ring manners.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Yes, I did read your other thread about the dumbbell, in fact I was one of the first people to respond and then did so a handful of times.

Hmmm... So in your mind, you corrected your dog for *greeting other dogs*... and that's an acceptable correction? Sems to me the problem was that he lost focus while working, left the task at hand and then left the ring... all BEFORE actually greeting the other dog, and all things that maybe could've been handled sooner. I'm just coming back to timing. In the time it took you to stand there gobsmacked for a few seconds and then run over to your dog and correct him, he was much less likely to associate the correction with his act of leaving the ring however many seconds ago. Was his tail tucked? Sure! Did he know you were pissed? Absolutely. Did he know exactly why? Well, he ain't talkin' so we'll never know for sure, but I'd bet notsomuch. When you choose to use positive punishment, it's absolutely critical that you have exquisite timing for it to work. And it's generally swift. If he jumped over a gate and you scruffed him all the way back into the ring, that means you continued to scruff while you walked/scruffed him back to a ring entrance?

And, have you considered the fact that maybe you corrected your dog for something you'd never practiced? Have you ever trained with dogs that close outside of the ring gates? What kind of distractions do you train around? How often? Not that you can set up every possible distraction in training to proof against, but you can set up a lot of them, and once you get through a certain number, the deck is stacked much better in your favor that your dog will be able to withstand other crazy distractions, too.

Please know, I'm not one of those tree-hugging hippie trainers who never used a correction. I do use them from time to time. I'm not perfect, and sometimes I even use them with more emotion than I should... and it's always easier to see it in others than in yourself, and I'm thankful I have great training friends who will call me on it and point out stuff for me to consider.

Please don't be offended by this... but the general feeling that I get when I read your posts about training for obedience is that you're putting an awful lot of pressure on yourself and your dog to show and title at such a young age. No doubt he's a fabulous dog and he's accomplished a ton at his young age, but please don't be afraid to slow down with things. Again, please don't be offended... it's just a feeling I get in my gut when reading your posts and I don't want you to accidentally burn out your dog (or yourself for that matter) in your quest to continue to accomplish many things while he's so young.

Just my opinion... which, along with a couple bucks might get you a tall coffee from Starbucks!

-S



hotel4dogs said:


> Ah quizzini, both all too true. I was so dumbfounded, I didn't even think to call him. He was just standing there. Not moving. Next thing he was airborne.
> *As far as the correction, did you read the thread a couple weeks ago when I corrected him at the wrong time and ended up with him terrified of the dumbell? * Luckily we worked thru that before his shows....but I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. This time before I corrected him I made sure it was not done in ANGER, and I realized he might think I was correcting him for *greeting the other dogs*, which would be an acceptable mistake and would serve the purpose to some extent, too.
> I commented later that I wished to heck the ring gate had fallen over when he did it, or that I had been standing close enough to KNOCK it over, as that probably would have scared the bejesus out of him and he'd never jump a ring gate again!
> The just like to remind us every so often that we have no clue what they're going to do NEXT!
> But I'm rather worried about him doing it in a show now that he knows how easy it is to do....


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Bizzy, I need to do that and in fact talked to some folks last night about setting him up for that during our next "drop in training" session. 
For "quiz's mom" (!) I'm not in the least little bit offended. I highly appreciate your well thought out responses and your advice. I'm very new to this and a lot of times what I *think* I'm doing and the outcome are two different things, as so clearly evidenced by my dumbell episode.
I read your response several times and it makes a lot of sense. Hopefully Monday when I try to set him up in a similar situation I will find out if he had any idea what he was being corrected for. We did go back into the rings last night and he had no fear of going back into the ring, so I think I'm okay on that one. But who knows what he thought he was being corrected for??? Although, I do think if he thought he was being corrected for greeting other dogs I'm not going to back down on that one, he has no business jumping in another dog's face in any case. 
But you're absolutely right, he had already done SEVERAL things that he should have been corrected for (or at least re-directed) long before he left the ring. He never should have gotten to the point where he was thinking about leaving the ring.
As far as slowing down, now that we're training for utility I feel we need to slow WAY down. It seems the novice/open exercises are fairly easy, but just watching how many dogs NQ the utility ones I can tell it's going to take a lot more time and thought to get him ready for that. 
I train with a phenominal husband/wife team (she's won NOC, they have many, many OTCH dogs, he's also a judge) and he told me that I have an incredible dog, that I have no idea what I've got here with this dog....and that the BIGGEST mistake that people make who end up with a dog like him is to rush the dog because he learns so fast and then end up causing all kinds of problems because the dog wasn't nearly as sound as you thought he was. Sound familiar to something you just said?? So I guess I'm very guilty of exactly that. I was not like this with my other 2 goldens (only got CDs on them) but I've never had a dog learn like he does. It's so exciting for me to work with him, so I know I do push him and myself.
Time to take a deep breath. Time for both of us to make it more into fun and games, and maybe he'd not lose his focus on me. 
I'm not in the least offended. I learn from people who have been in the sport so much longer than I have, and have seen others make the same mistakes that I'm making, and are thoughtful enough to point them out to me so that I can correct it before it goes too far.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I don't mean to sound critical, but I don't understand why, after you had a pretty bad reaction in the past, you would scruff and shake him again. From what you said in your past thread about his reaction to your doing that, a firm verbal correction would have probably worked as well, if not better. His tucking his tail would tell you that. I am not involved in competitions, but it would seem to me that if I got so stressed over something like that, that I would rather not be involved in them.
> 
> Sorry, that's just my opinion after taking a few agility classes with both Danny and Jasper. The classes I took were called "Fun with Agility" and that's what it was. I guess I am not cut out to compete.


I agree with FosterMom - the time to correct him (and NOT by scruff shaking or reprimanding like you did), would have been to catch him BEFORE he greeted the dogs. You said he took the gaiting from a standstill - which means he had to land from the jump and run to the gaiting - PAUSE - and then jump over. Calling him as he went towards the gaiting or if at the very least calling him back from the gating or going over and taking him gently by the collar and repeating the exercise would have been the wiser decision to make. In the obedience or agility ring I want to be the most exciting thing to my dog and I work hard to that end - my intact dog would never leave me to go check out a bitch in season - I (and the work) are WAY more fun - you're going to have other dogs against the gating at shows, kids hanging over ring gating with hot dogs, bitches in season in the group stays, etc. I'd set the situation up again and be proactive not punitive.

Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Glad I didn't offend you! 

*I train with a phenominal husband/wife team (she's won NOC, they have many, many OTCH dogs, he's also a judge)*

Glad you have a great trainer. That can make all the difference. Who is it? 

My only thought on the correcting for greeting other dogs... Sure, we don't want him jumping over the gates, but like I said, to me, by then it's too late, and so long as he's not gang-banging the other dogs, but is showcasing an appropriate dog-to-dog greeting, I'd be very careful about correcting for that. You don't want him to accidentally associate the correction *with* the other dog, or end up correcting an appropriate d-2-d greeting, just b/c it happened at, to you, the wrong time. The real issue is the dog losing focus and starting his journey out of the ring. THAT'S what I'd say you need to work on fixing. 

I'm probably harping on this, but it's just that I see so many people inadvertently mess up their dog's ability to greet other dogs politely via tight leashes, repramands for pulling toward another dog, etc.

Have fun training the Utility exercises. We're working several of them now while we polish our open work and I'm having a blast with it!

-Stephanie


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, in retrospect it would have.
Not the first time I've made a wrong decision training, surely won't be the last, but I do agree with you.




MurphyTeller said:


> I agree with FosterMom - the time to correct him (and NOT by scruff shaking or reprimanding like you did), would have been to catch him BEFORE he greeted the dogs. You said he took the gaiting from a standstill - which means he had to land from the jump and run to the gaiting - PAUSE - and then jump over. Calling him as he went towards the gaiting or if at the very least calling him back from the gating or going over and taking him gently by the collar and repeating the exercise would have been the wiser decision to make.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm still with you 100% on being more interesting, and on keeping his focus on me. It also accounts for points we lose when showing....loss of focus, not inability to do the exercises. I know exactly what I have to work on!
AND I'd really love to hear little things you do to keep your dog's focus on you when training.....I have my own, but I love to hear others.
As far as greeting other dogs, I can honestly say I have no worries about that, I'm sure this will be situational to the show ring. Tito works for a living, here at my pet hotel, as the social director. He plays with TONS of dogs on a daily basis! It's one of the reasons I was so shocked that he went to great the other dogs, he sees so many other dogs, and plays with them, that normally he really couldn't care less about any other dog at training or at shows!
Happy Thanksgiving!
Barb





FlyingQuizini said:


> Glad I didn't offend you!
> 
> *I train with a phenominal husband/wife team (she's won NOC, they have many, many OTCH dogs, he's also a judge)*
> 
> ...


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito works for a living, here at my pet hotel, as the social director. He plays with TONS of dogs on a daily basis! It's one of the reasons I was so shocked that he went to great the other dogs, he sees so many other dogs, and plays with them, that normally he really couldn't care less about any other dog at training or at shows!


That could be part of the problem here - how does he know (and I mean how does he generalize) that he's supposed to go greet dogs "at work" but not in the obedience ring? Unless you've proofed the heck out of it probably not. He was "playing" in the ring with you and left to "play" outside the ring - he didn't discriminate between playing with you and playing with the cute husky. The fact that there was gaiting between him and the other dogs was one he solved for himself...I'm not sure that Tito even had a thought for a moment that he was making a mistake...until he got the correction. 

Erica
You have a really cool opportunity to set him up for a really great recall - he's playing with other dogs, go in towards him, but something or a toy on his nose and run away calling him - he comes YAY!!! (and cookie party). Work to the point where he's playing and enjoying himself but keeping eyeballs on you in case you're going to call him - that's part of making yourself more exciting


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Erica, I never thought of that. I guess I just figured that since I normally don't allow him to greet dogs when in any training building/situation, he'd figure it out. Good thought, tho! He probably just saw new dogs came in and did what he thought was expected.
Which still boils down to, he should not have even been aware of them coming in if I had been doing MY job as my half of the team.
I just got home from drop -in training (yes, our club has that on Thanksgiving!) and he was his usual self, not at all interested in any other dog there. Go figure.
Oh but me, I was SOOO much fun I could hardly even stand myself! :
He had his eyes just glued to me!
AND the best thing, believe it or not, was that he went down on the long sit just as I was walking away from him. He's never done that, so it was a perfect opportunity to go remind him that I had left him on a SIT, not a DOWN. 
A very successful morning!




MurphyTeller said:


> That could be part of the problem here - how does he know (and I mean how does he generalize) that he's supposed to go greet dogs "at work" but not in the obedience ring? Unless you've proofed the heck out of it probably not. He was "playing" in the ring with you and left to "play" outside the ring - he didn't discriminate between playing with you and playing with the cute husky. The fact that there was gaiting between him and the other dogs was one he solved for himself...I'm not sure that Tito even had a thought for a moment that he was making a mistake...until he got the correction.
> 
> Erica
> You have a really cool opportunity to set him up for a really great recall - he's playing with other dogs, go in towards him, but something or a toy on his nose and run away calling him - he comes YAY!!! (and cookie party). Work to the point where he's playing and enjoying himself but keeping eyeballs on you in case you're going to call him - that's part of making yourself more exciting


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