# Other SD handlers. Do you think carding should be the rule?



## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

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Just curious what other handlers think should be done to weed out the fakers?


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

I should add, I read a lot of FB boards of owner trained service dogs. One thing I notice a lot of are people skirting the issue. They get around saying it's an emotional support animal by just proclaiming it's a medical assist dog. 

Just curious. 


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

I'll give you my short answer, short being relative. I am not for carding. There are many reasons why the most important being that I don't believe it would help with people passing off fake service dogs. It may prevent some from doing it but most will keep right on going. Many businesses do not do what they are allowed to do now, the next time I am asked what tasks Camaro is trained to do will be the first. It is rare that we are even asked if he is a service dog. 

Carding means there is someone issuing the cards, who does that, who decides, how easy is it for legitimate teams to get, how easy for fake teams, and many many other questions that would need answered. 

Everyone holds up the handicap parking tags as the example, there are two things wrong with that example. First it is not the same situation, parking is a limited resource handicap parking is to ensure that there is a certain amount reserved for people that need it. There is no limit to number of service dogs allowed in a place of accommodation. The other thing wrong with that example is that the system for handicap tags is rife with fraudulent abuses, is that really what we want? A system that makes it more difficult then it is now for those that need it and that not only does not deter fakers, but legitimizes them by having an official card. 

Right now businesses are so terrified of lawsuits and bad press for denying legitimate service dogs they let everyone in. That needs to change, the article that was popular about the fakes in New York is a good example, the guy going everywhere with his dog in a Therapy Dog vest, therapy dogs which are not allowed public access beyond where pets are allowed. 

Another thing is the penalties, more states need to make it a crime to impersonate a service dog, and to interfere/harm service dogs so that the faker in a store whose dog attacks a service dog gets hit with everything. I have seen some suggest penalty for faking is to forfeit the dog, harsh for the dog but it hits the owner where it hurts the most.


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

As someone who will be possibly be dealing with a service dog at an elementary school, I would welcome national standards, registration, and severe penalties for abusing/faking use of a service dog.

JLC44, I don't understand your objection to using the handicap tags as an example. I don't see limited parking spaces vs unlimited dogs as relevant to the argument. Sorry, I guess I am being dense tonight.

I have never heard of anyone punished/fined for faking a service dog. I would love to see it happen.

I'm sure my background influences my view of this. 
I am required to be registered to perform my job in any state. Prior to getting my registration, I had to take and pass certain classes and a 2 day long exam. I am required to take 20 hours of continuing education every 2 years to be able to reapply for my licensure. There is a State Board in every state to monitor this. They control punishment for failing to meet these requirements.
Why not something like this for service dogs?


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

I think having drs determine the need based on disability a start.

I had to have a dr sign for my handicap placard. Are there frauds? Yes. But here in CA, I have to carry my dmv paperwork in addition to having the placard. I have to have the paper on my person or face a fine. I had to have a script for a wheelchair. I guess if it's a medical necessity and we want the public to accept us as such, to me it makes sense. But, I too, tend to see things by way of personal experiences.




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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

Baja in trying to be brief I may have sacrificed clarity, so let me try to better explain what I meant. The reason there are handicap spots is so that there is reserved parking for those that need it. Without the tags anyone can park there, and there are no reserved spots for the handicapped. When someone without need parks in a handicapped spot it takes away the ability of a handicapped person parking there. When someone fakes a service dog in a store it does not prevent a person taking a legitimate service dog into the store. 

That doesn't even take into account the fact that they are two separate types of activities. Driving (and therefore parking) is a privilege, it can be taken away. Public access is a right, it can only be taken away be being incarcerated.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I agree with this.
I think if a doctor's script were necessary, it would be a big step in the right direction. The doctor would not have to state what the disability is, hence avoiding the invasion of privacy issue, merely that the person has a disability for which a service dog is helpful.



MominGermany said:


> I think having drs determine the need based on disability a start.
> 
> I had to have a dr sign for my handicap placard. Are there frauds? Yes. But here in CA, I have to carry my dmv paperwork in addition to having the placard. I have to have the paper on my person or face a fine. I had to have a script for a wheelchair. I guess if it's a medical necessity and we want the public to accept us as such, to me it makes sense. But, I too, tend to see things by way of personal experiences.
> 
> ...


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> I agree with this.
> I think if a doctor's script were necessary, it would be a big step in the right direction. The doctor would not have to state what the disability is, hence avoiding the invasion of privacy issue, merely that the person has a disability for which a service dog is helpful.


That's my thought as well. 

I see a lot of different viewpoints, and I'm so new to this world of service animals, I could probably be swayed if the argument were strong enough. I just think it's terrible that there are so many out there who are taking advantage. I think it does a disservice to legitimate teams. 


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

JLC44 said:


> Baja in trying to be brief I may have sacrificed clarity, so let me try to better explain what I meant. The reason there are handicap spots is so that there is reserved parking for those that need it. Without the tags anyone can park there, and there are no reserved spots for the handicapped. When someone without need parks in a handicapped spot it takes away the ability of a handicapped person parking there. When someone fakes a service dog in a store it does not prevent a person taking a legitimate service dog into the store.
> 
> That doesn't even take into account the fact that they are two separate types of activities. Driving (and therefore parking) is a privilege, it can be taken away. Public access is a right, it can only be taken away be being incarcerated.


Thank you for explaining, I understand what you mean now.
My concern is that poorly trained dogs, masquerading as service dogs, will eventually ruin it for everyone.


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

BajaOklahoma said:


> Thank you for explaining, I understand what you mean now.
> My concern is that poorly trained dogs, masquerading as service dogs, will eventually ruin it for everyone.


My sister sent me a picture of a little dog that was clearly afraid standing in line at her grocery store. She told me a head of lettuce fell, and the dog peed. It did have a vest on, and it just does send the wrong picture about SDs.

I'm super picky about Ellie and her access since she's still fairly new to the work she's doing. I keep her outings short and fun.


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## Pammie (Jan 22, 2011)

random thoughts...

Doctors give out signatures to verify disability for parking placards like candy, I have no doubt they would do the same for a SD (service dog).

Also, just because you have a disability does not mean you have a doctor. In the acute stage probably, but after that not always.

I am not sure doctors would know if a SD would be beneficial or not. I think it would be another case of the patient telling the Doc what is needed and the Doc agreeing.

I am not against some sort of regulation, but _what_ I do not know because it likely could end up being a hardship to the PWD (person with a disability).


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

That's a good point, but I didn't find our dr giving out placards easily. I've done it twice, once for my dad who suffers from Lou Gehrig's and then one for myself. I just imagine that things that are disabling would be under a drs care. Or therapists. 

I'm sure we all recognize that something needs to be done, just hard to know what.


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## Pammie (Jan 22, 2011)

MominGermany said:


> I'm sure we all recognize that something needs to be done, just hard to know what.
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true dat!

I know people that have long term disabilities where their health is "stable" and they don't do wellness check-ups, or they have MediCal and can not find Docs in the area who will accept them, or even people who have had soooo much medical attention because of their disability they just stay away until something critical happens.


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

Pammie said:


> true dat!
> 
> I know people that have long term disabilities where their health is "stable" and they don't do wellness check-ups, or they have MediCal and can not find Docs in the area who will accept them, or even people who have had soooo much medical attention because of their disability they just stay away until something critical happens.


It's a struggle in our area for sure!!! I have to get to Sacramento for my specialty care. Not easy for someone who suffers such great fatigue, I've fallen asleep while driving!!! It's why Ellie babysits me!


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## Colie CVT (Sep 15, 2013)

I've seen smaller dogs on flexi-leads a few times in walmart with no markings that they were a service animal a few occasions now. One of those, the heeler actually barked at my roommate's SD before the woman called it down the aisle to her. We were still a good 20+ feet away from that animal and on the other side of the large aisle between food and outfits (with random square food displays). No idea if this was a legitimate SD or not, which is the question. 

I'm all for people who could benefit from having a SD to be able to have one. Though I do agree that people who merely claim their pet is could potentially cause trouble for everyone else because there's SUCH a huge gray area with all the different things we're finding that dogs can help with. They're so in tune to us, to things we don't always understand, there are days it almost seems limitless. 

I have started teaching my boy some things to help me with hiking and every day activities when he's around (work, home) to help me. It may end up being beneficial, since there's a chance I may have some kind of autoimmune disease related to joints/connective tissue. I finally knuckled down on myself (my health insurance isn't super great) and said I have to really look into this. I have to get further testing. Even with being active, with doing physiotherapy, bracing, icing, medications, I hurt. But even with all that, I didn't go in. I saw a rheumatologist for the first time this last week for further testing. The test I tested positive for can be false, and I lack family history, so for now I'm trying to be good and ignore the disease he brought up a few times, but I'm one of those people who is stubborn and doesn't like to rely on help from other people. My grandmother was much the same way lol. She fell when she went to sit on a very squishy couch once. When I offered help, she batted my hand away. However, Myles instantly went to her side when she fell and stood very still beside her. She placed her hand on his back and let him help her up. I'm too young to give up what independence I have lol. 

I do wish there was some way of perhaps not exactly regulating maybe as much as just keeping track. Maybe even a central organization that helped with training - whether they fully did it or guided owners - that trainers could become part of to try and keep track of it? I'm not sure myself, which is I think that gray area that everyone is stuck in with this lol. Though I would hate to see people who truly benefit denied the access due to people who try to cheat the system. :/


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

Oh goodness, don't get me started on flexi leads!!! Lol

I think about the issue a lot. I know we with golden retrievers are far less likely to be challenged for access based on the abundance of golden service dogs. But, I do notice when I've entered establishments, while people may not say anything, I get 
looked at a little sideways I think until they see that Ellie makes herself invisible. Then it's almost a sigh of relief that she's behaving.




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## Colie CVT (Sep 15, 2013)

Oh I'm right there with you about those leads, I promise!  They're miserable outside, inside of a store with all kinds of food temptations? It's just asking for potential trouble.

Most of the time when we're out with Sully, people have a tendency to decide to touch him/interact with him without asking or anything like that. And they always assume that he's training, when he's fully trained lol. He's a very well behaved boy and he loves everyone, though when he's working he stays very focused. But he started training when he was young, since my roommate has a really, really bad knee.


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

Sorry been out of town so just now getting back to this. Here is a couple things I have with the Dr notes. As Pammie said some Drs sign for parking at the drop of a hat, and I agree put that in place for service dogs and it will be at least as bad. The other side of that is the people that do have disabilities, there are already people either intentionally or through ignorance passing off emotional support dogs as service dogs. They have Dr notes for their dogs for housing. Just because the doctor says you have a disability that a service dog could help doesn't mean your dog is a service dog. I see this as a great way to legitimize fakers, I can see this happening 

Faker "here is my service dog and Dr note"
Employee "ok it's real"

I don't see how that would be successful at reducing fakers in any significant amount, and while a small inconvenience to do it once, every time you go somewhere it is stop, get out your note, let them read it and decide to let you in our not, I imagine it getting tiresome quickly.

I am all for a system that will be effective against fakers, without putting the ability to get service dogs out of reach of those that need them, and without putting undue difficulties on those that use them. No one has come up with such a system. The whole point of service dogs is to assist a person with a disability live an independent life, making it easier to do things that they can not do for themselves. The dog is to make things easier for them so I am against making it harder for them without a very good reason, and a system that might help some, maybe, isn't good enough to me.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

As a non-therapy dog user, but as someone who cares that the dogs and users and their rights are protected, I would like to see some sort of system put in place to identify bona fide service dogs. I have no useful suggestions for the nature of the system. But I think there should be something to provide shop and business owners with a mechanism to refuse entry when appropriate, and for authentic service dog users and owners to live their lives without questions, etc. As I said I don't know what the system would be, but we are a highly innovative and creative nation with a lot of technological resources at our disposal, and we ought to be able to eliminate the fakes while protecting the bona fides.


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

That's about how I feel. Surely something can be done. Like I mentioned, I have heard of so many just skirting the issue and saying its a medical assist dog when it's really just emotional support. And I know there are true psychiatric assistance dogs, but it comes down to the level of disability and what tasks the dog is trained to provide. 


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## tcamp33 (Nov 7, 2013)

I agree with Pammie and JLC44 on this one. I have been a legislative advocate for decades, working mostly with health disparities (joint degree I public health and law from Yale). Ive worked for most of my life on equal access and health disparities due to income, race, education, disability or country of origin, among other protected and unprotected classes. I've written and pushed through legislation, regulations, and protections, typically at the state level, to protect those who are in need of someone to speak for or with them.

The reality is that SDs are often as unique as the people who need them. Some states have developed registration systems, requirements or guidance, but none are binding because the federal law is so vague and lax, and purposefully.

The general reason is, as some have said, is that we don't want to make access to those with legitimate need more difficult. For anyone suffering with chronic disease or disability, it is a full time job in and of itself without having to jump through even more hoops. The cost of obtaining and/or training a SD is prohibitive for many, and the investment, time, financial and otherwise, substantial.

The reality is, we lack data on the incidence of those with illegitimate service dogs and the "harm" they do. Is the harm enough to create a system or set of regulations that are prohibitive for those who have legitimate need?

According to ADA, you don't even need a doctor's note. You need a dog trained to do a task oriented job that cannot be done by carrying a purse or fanny/hip pack, for a legitimate ADA disability. Most people use IAADP standards as the general rule of thumb for behavior. Now, a doctor's note may be helpful if you want to fully execute rights under ADA, such as housing waiver or if you want tax write offs for medical necessity of SD (including vet costs, food, training costs, etc), so I would recommend one, but I have also spoken with many health providers that are themselves ignorant to the help a service dog could provide, including specialists such as rheumatologists, because there is such a lack of research, literature and training on this.

FYI: http://www.iaadp.org/iaadp-minimum-training-standards-for-public-access.html

But if you read the actual statute and regulations, there are no actual requirements other than SDs not be "disruptive" which is in itself vague, right? We're also required to pay for any damage.

Ultimately, as a public health advocate, and ADA disabled person WITH lifetime chronic disease, I don't find that having more stringent regulation is really going to help. In fact, ADA is written specifically to make it so that others cannot put unduly burdens on those with disabilities. I might argue that creating regulations would be a violation of ADA, requiring total amendment under the Act.

In my opinion, I think what is most useful is advocacy, research funding, increasing access to SDs for those who need them, and educating the public on what as SD, TD and ED are, and the most appropriate roles for all.

This is an interesting topic, and one that will likely not go away, but this is where it becomes important for SD handers and stakeholders to come together under a common position or national organization (like IAADP?). Now THAT is something I could get behind!


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## JLC44 (Jun 18, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> I agree with this.
> I think if a doctor's script were necessary, it would be a big step in the right direction. The doctor would not have to state what the disability is, hence avoiding the invasion of privacy issue, merely that the person has a disability for which a service dog is helpful.



Hotel and MominGermany here is the problem with that, from the other thread about the NY Times emotional support article. 

*"To serve the needs of the animals and their owners, a cottage industry of websites and doctors advertising documents that certify emotional support animals has emerged.  Carla Black, a psychotherapist in Marina del Rey, Calif., began receiving enough requests for emotional support animal certification that this year she began advertising on her website. For $99, she provides an hour of her time, over the phone or Skype, and a clinical assessment, along with a prescription letter, which is valid for one year. 
 Ms. Black said in a telephone interview that before she issues a letter she ensures the client is eligible under criteria set by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition. “I make sure they qualify for depression or whatever, P.T.S.D.,” she said, referring to post-traumatic stress disorder"*


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