# WCX Question



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Golden Retriever Club of America GRCA: The Official AKC National Breed Club has a free WC video on their website. Shipping is $2. I've watched it. I don't think it's much different from a hunt test.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

To me, if I'm looking at non-field lines and want to see that there is some working ability there, a WCX is nice. If I'm looking at field lines for a serious hunt test/field trial prospect, it wouldn't mean as much.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It doesn't mean a whole lot from a breeding point of view if you are looking for working/field ability.
Part of the problem is that you only have to pass once, and I've seen one WCX that I thought the dogs could pass with one leg tied behind their backs and a blindfold on, and another one that was actually pretty challenging. There's no real consistency between the tests. At least for MH, or even SH, you need to pass several so the chances of being "lucky" with an easy test are less.
Because there's no handling involved, there's really not much training required (other than delivery to hand, which is required in a JH, too), so I don't think it's much of an indicator of trainability.
So, IMO, the WCX is a very basic idea of whether or not the dog will pick up a bird, but not a whole lot more.
That said....also a lot of fun!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

It is worth something, I guess. I have seen MHs that had no working ability or desire at all, but if you have enough time and money...

It is a triple and a double with an honor, so while a dog could get lucky and pass, probably shows something.

I'd say it would mean more to me than a JH, but maybe not so much as a SH--or perhaps about the same. The WC is something that a dog with no ability could happen to pass, though.

It is mostly for fun though. And, it is a lot of fun. My GRC used to do two a year but then basically got out of it.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My dilemma ....

A double-header obedience trial within 45 minutes of my house in a beautiful park or a WCX test about 1/2 hour in the opposite direction. Same dog. Utility A versus WCX... by all accounts he is a phenomenal marker but he is becoming very, very consistent in Utility. 

He is also working towards his SH debut so perhaps good practice??

hmmmm


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Since the WC/WCX are usually fewer and farther between than obedience--at least around here, I would opt for that. Enter both and make a day of it.

Just in case, though, throw some pigeons for the guy. Since GRCA allows their use and they are usually cheap and easy to see, you often get them at WC/WCX. They can be disconcerting for dogs who have never seen them.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Which would your dog enjoy more ???


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I believe you can't talk to your dog on the honor. Breaking for us maybe an issue. We have been working on it but with out that reinforcing "no bird sit".......


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

LOL - he actually might enjoy Utility more since he'd be with me and not sharing attention with other dogs heeheehee

But then there is the running/swimming full-bore for his birds factor, gloves & scent articles aren't quite the same. 

I am leaning towards the WCX....



hotel4dogs said:


> Which would your dog enjoy more ???


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It would be an easy decision for me, with my own dog....he couldn't care less about ME if there are BIRDS BIRDS BIRDS BIRDS BIRDS!!! 
I do agree with Tatnall, at least around here there are lots of obedience opportunities, and very very few WC/WCX.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can talk to your dog until the working dog signals they are ready.
It is courteous for the working dog to ask the honor dog if they are ready (also in SH and MH) before they signal to the judge that they are ready.
So you are able to hiss.....NO BIRD...SIT, before you say you are ready. Assuming your working dog handler is courteous!




hollyk said:


> I believe you can't talk to your dog on the honor. Breaking for us maybe an issue. We have been working on it but with out that reinforcing "no bird sit".......


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

hollyk said:


> I believe you can't talk to your dog on the honor. Breaking for us maybe an issue. We have been working on it but with out that reinforcing "no bird sit".......


That is true. They use FT rules instead of HT rules, so no talking. Although, FCR owners can talk to their dogs.

That can make it tough, since the marks are pretty short and tempting--especially with the splash. OTOH, since the honor is on water and goldens don't like to swim, it shouldn't be too hard


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Yep, goldens just don't _do_ the whole water thing LOL No honor problems there


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I know you guys are kidding...
when we had our SH tests I prayed the honor would NOT NOT NOT be on water. Land honors aren't too bad. Water....YIKES! And the worst is when they make you honor before your retrieves. 
My pond. My bird.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes, you are right - Faelan has an awesome water entry and the chance to hit the water is one of the few things that I know that can have him whimpering with excitement


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

My young guy failed two MH test in a row, that he had run flawlessly by breaking on the last bird in the water--once on honor and once as working dog--on the honor, a friend who was running the working dog even gave his dog an extra loud "sit" to help us out. Unfortunately, that splash less than 20 yards in his face was too much. I guess that is one of the problems that can come up when you run him in an amateur one weekend and a HT the next  He hasn't failed one yet where we ran some HT training stuff a few days before the test.

Oh well, I just keep saying that I wouldn't want a dog that would never break.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Unless there have been some MAJOR changes in Utility, I don't recall seeing any water?
The choice becomes more clear :



Sunrise said:


> Yes, you are right - Faelan has an awesome water entry and the chance to hit the water is one of the few things that I know that can have him whimpering with excitement


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

LOL - I might just have to make a video of the excitement building if I delay in taking the scent article from him - I may have made the delivery a tad too exciting .....


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

The purpose of the WC and X - mostly about demonstrating natural abilities - for the X mostly marking ability and memory:
"In establishing the criteria for the WC, the GRCA realizes that most Golden Retrievers will not be as thoroughly
trained as those who compete in field trials and therefore has devised simple land and water tests using designated
game birds. These tests are designed to demonstrate the following natural abilities of a retriever as stated in the AKC
Retriever Advisory Committee Supplement: accurate marking and memory of falls, intelligence, attention, style, good
nose, perseverance, desire and trainability.
The purpose of the Working Certificate Excellent test is to encourage the development of the Golden Retriever's
natural hunting and retrieving abilities through additional training. In preparing the criteria for the WCX, the GRCA
realizes there are many people who do not wish to compete in AKC field trials but who do want to train their dogs
beyond the level of the WC. The WCX is designed to demonstrate the development of marking ability, memory,​intelligence, perseverance and retrieving desire through training."

What the others said above is true, on the WCX Golden Retriever handlers cannot talk to your dog during the honor. In AKC HT the rules state you can quietly so long as it doesn't disturb the working dog.

The WCX rules start on page 6. I needed to look them up for myself anyway since I need to start training Gladys on triples. Her last triple was a disaster

http://www.grca.org/pdf/events/GRCA_WC-WCX_RulesOct2012.pdf


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I like the WC/WCX because it is about the natural abilities.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Obedience will always be the priority for me, which is why it might take years for Flip to finish the JH! We did WC/JH on weekends there were no trials or big matches I had plans to attend. We have a spring and a fall season, and it looks like we'll probably not enter anything for the fall season as all the local tests are also on big trial weekends.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Wouldn't it be nice if the various clubs could coordinate their schedules so we could have fun in different venues instead of feeling forced to pick one or the other?

Dawn, 
I hear you, I wish Lucy could do a triple. We tried once and darn little girl is maybe a bit too young. So our WC/WCX is in a couple of weeks. Lucy won't be able to do the WCX. Reilly he just goes crazy with one bird, he just won't settle for 2 birds. So I think he'll always be a singles kind of guy. Just the kind of boy you take hunting.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

It does seem like some weekends there's nothing to do and other weekends there's everything to do :-(

I like the natural ability part too. Some people think the WC/X are supposed to be easy but with the judges and terrain in this area, I never saw an "easy" or "gimme" set up. Our club test has the hardcore Master HT + field trial judge team this time around. 

Alaska too bad you don't have enough time to train, but there is next year.
Me and Sunrise have a WC/X in our area in like a couple weeks and another mid-Sept

So we have time to train but if we want to do it we should get going. 
I can't remember if Sunrise's dog has the C or not, I think he could do that with his eyes closed. He's an excellent marker.

For the triple, it sounds easy on paper to mark off of 3 people standing in the field in white, however there are still ways to screw up, like splitting the difference between 2 of the marks, making a triple into a double in their little canine brains. 

Well I'm in charge of the workers for our club test so I'm going to try very hard to have Ms. Gladys ready for her triple because I have to be there anyway so I would at least like to enter and collect a ribbon for the time and gas money!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I just finished up rearranging my schedule  Now hopefully they will not move the date since the premium was not posted when I checked earlier.

Thanks for the compliment on my Faelaney boy !!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

not that I've seen that many of them, but in the WCX's that I've seen most of the dogs passed the land, maybe even all of them at the one, and then about 80% failed the water. Of the ones that failed the water, probably 80% of those it was on the honor!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> not that I've seen that many of them, but in the WCX's that I've seen most of the dogs passed the land, maybe even all of them at the one, and then about 80% failed the water. Of the ones that failed the water, probably 80% of those it was on the honor!!


The one WCX I went to, only two dogs of all entered passed land. It was a tight triple (I'm told, I wouldn't know). Both dogs went on to pass water.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The biggest problem I've seen with WCX tests is (inexperienced) judges not knowing how to set up a test. They inadvertently put difficult elements into what should be a very straight forward test. I've seen WCX judges who have never trained much less passed a Senior test -- now how can you know how to set up anything beyond singles if you've never done it??
Anyways -- the WCX is an antiquated title in terms of displaying working ability -- but it is an awful lot of fun! Best of luck whichever you decide.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I really don't think it is so irrelevant. I like to see what a dog has in it's natural abilities. Dog has to mark. Go to a hunt test and watch dogs that need to be handled to their marks---that's not why I bought my retriever.

As a hunter and hunt tester who trains his own dogs---I would rather own the dog that has more in natural abilities as opposed to owning a dog that needs a ton of training to do what it was bred to do. I don't care what title he has.

Just my opinion.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Alaska7133 said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if the various clubs could coordinate their schedules so we could have fun in different venues instead of feeling forced to pick one or the other?
> 
> Dawn,
> I hear you, I wish Lucy could do a triple. We tried once and darn little girl is maybe a bit too young. So our WC/WCX is in a couple of weeks. Lucy won't be able to do the WCX. Reilly he just goes crazy with one bird, he just won't settle for 2 birds. So I think he'll always be a singles kind of guy. Just the kind of boy you take hunting.


WC/WCX down here in Seattle the beginning of Oct. You could come down for it, then you would have 2 more months to train.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> The biggest problem I've seen with WCX tests is (inexperienced) judges not knowing how to set up a test. They inadvertently put difficult elements into what should be a very straight forward test. I've seen WCX judges who have never trained much less passed a Senior test -- now how can you know how to set up anything beyond singles if you've never done it??
> Anyways -- the WCX is an antiquated title in terms of displaying working ability -- but it is an awful lot of fun! Best of luck whichever you decide.



There are requirements for the judges. It isn't much and one judge *could* be a total newb if the other had the three required points. At least one judge has to have judged in a FT or HT (although SH does count) before. In my experience with them, at least one judge is quite good and often both. Although, one judge is often just someone from the club who is totally green. I have never seen any particularly bad setups or tricky, luckily.

If I am judging a WCX, I am going to expect the dogs to be able to mark. It isn't going to be a Q level triple, but neither is it going to be three JH marks run as a triple. There is going to be some thought about bird placement and some factors to fight--can't just have three birds belly up on a golf course.

Biggest issue I have seen is inexperienced handlers, more than anything, in why dogs fail. Followed by the honor. I marshaled at a WC/X where the land of the X brought back six dogs and every one of them failed on the water. They all either broke or broke on the honor. One poor woman had the honor dog break on her three times. Finally her dog broke. The judges ended up giving her the pass through some rationalization but it was really because they felt they had to have at least one dog pass.


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