# Slow Growth False Information



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Second, the plan is advantageous because it allows owners to do a preliminary OFA hip check on their puppies at just 4 months of age. Generally puppies raised on the slow growth plan will maintain this same rating until their first official certification at 2 years old. Any of you interested in doing agility training or breeding down the road will appreciate this fact.


I'm sorry, I don't buy this. 

At 4 months, a golden is NOWHERE near his full growth. Prelims done at that age are worthless. 



> She is already able to clear a 3 foot barrier with no problems.


What the heck are you doing having a puppy jumping 3 feet? That is far worse than running with her!


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

"I'm sorry, I don't buy this. 

At 4 months, a golden is NOWHERE near his full growth. Prelims done at that age are worthless."

That is actually completely incorrect and OFA checks are routinely done on younger dogs. It is the OFFICIAL CERTIFICATION that is not possible until 24 months. I suppose you are also someone who believes in neutering dogs before 14 months of age? (which can also greatly affect structural stability btw)

"What the heck are you doing having a puppy jumping 3 feet? That is far worse than running with her!"

I don't have her jump 3 feet, she started being able to jump on my bed at 16 weeks. I have generally prevented her from jumping off (which is when injuries can potentially occur). But she does this all on her own. The point being made in the original post was that the Hovan Plan cultivates lean, athletic puppies and adult dogs (which you should have understood).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Terence said:


> That is actually completely incorrect and OFA checks are routinely done on younger dogs. I suppose you are also someone who believes in neutering dogs before 14 months of age? (which can also greatly affect structural stability btw)


Terence, I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that prelims done that early can hold up. For one thing, if you are having your dog jumping after balls in the yard or jumping 3 feet, that can cause bone changes or damage (bone chips, for example).

I would be interested to hear when breeders who are members of GRF do prelims, but the breeders I know through the clubs I train at wait until a year. 

I followed a slow growth method with my golden - not the Rhonda Hoven one, but one suggested by my guy's breeder. But this was mainly to keep him from growing too fast and going through something like pano. 

We only neutered one golden... when he was 10. 

I've heard both sides on what neutering early can do or not, but I believe there are a lot of exaggerations on both sides.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Here we go again


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Terence, I don't disagree with the slow growth plan at all. I am curious where you came up with the contention that prelims done at 4 months old are reliable. Who told you this? The best radiologist in southern California for OFA xrays has told me (and a number of other golden people) that 8 months and older are the most reliable prelims. What radiologist did you take your dogs to?


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Once again, I was using the example of my puppy being able to jump onto a 3 foot bed as an example of how physically fit and active a young dog on this growth plan can be. Puppies are going to sprint and jump and play. Playing fetch is NOT going to cause fractures of any type. In fact, fetching helps a puppy to learn how to gait proper which is excellent for show dogs.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

*Ofa*

"Four months old is also an excellent time to do an OFA
preliminary hip x-ray, because pups raised on the Slow Grow Plan have a very high likelihood of rating the same at
this age as they will at their two year old final x-ray (Corley et al, 1997)."


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Once again, I was using the example of my puppy being able to jump onto a 3 foot bed


You didn't say bed in your initial post, you said 3 foot barrier. 



> as an example of how physically fit and active a young dog on this growth plan can be.


I'm sorry, but each and every single one of my goldens were very capable of jumping up and off beds.... this had more to do with their breeding... they were hyper and fearless.



> Playing fetch is NOT going to cause fractures of any type


It depends on how it's done. 

What if the dog jumps up and grabs whatever she's retrieving? 

What if she slips in the grass?

*** I don't have a problem with people using retrieving to get their dogs moving, I'm just saying that exercise and any kind of jumping and running can cause changes to the joints while the pup is growing. This goes back to the 4 month prelims. 



Terence said:


> In fact, fetching helps a puppy to learn how to gait proper which is excellent for show dogs.


Do you show?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Who is Corley? Do you have an actual citation?


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Corley EA, Keller GC, Lattimer JC, et al. Reliability of early radiographic evaluations for canine hip dysplasia obtained
from the standard ventrodorsal radiographic projection. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1997; Vol 211, No. 9; 1142-1146


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

My older dog was shown and has won in the 6-9 month puppy class. He is going to be reevaluated at 2 1/2 years by our handler now that he has matured.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

This is also from the same article, as summarized on the OFA website: 

A recent publication compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).

Which means the older you do the prelims the more reliable they are. There is some degree of reliability at 4 months old, but I know many people whose dogs cleared elbows on prelims and did not clear on finals.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I see you live in the same area as me, who is handling your dog? We live in North County.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Terence, will you be at the Bahia Sur show this weekend? I'll probably be there on Saturday with Kira for socializing but I'm not showing her until the Long Beach Sporting Dog Specialty.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Jack, absolutely your assessment of the article is accurate and correct. I think my post was misinterpreted. Of course I agree the closer you get to 24 months the more accurate the OFA check.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Megora, you have single-handedly made me have literally zero interest in participating in this forum anymore. I have news for you, puppies are not little toys made of balsa wood. They jump, they sprint, they cut, they fall, and they slip. They have an incredible capacity for development. I am not telling anyone to take their puppy to an agility competion! Nor am I telling anyone to coax their puppy over agility barriers.

I'm simply saying I believe in slow growth and the benefits it adds to physical development. I have witnessed it with my puppy and many others. Any issue with that??? I also don't believe in neutering before 14 months or foods that contain grain, soy, and wheat. 

The point of this forum, as I understand it, is to share valuable information. I know numerous breeders, handlers, and search and rescue teams that use the Hovan Slow Growth formula as well as the very valuable Biosensor "Super Dog" program to stimulate puppy development and intelligence.

If you don't subscribe to them, that's fine. But sitting here trying to rip apart each of my posts is pathetic. I would be very surprised if I am the only person with whom you have had an issue on this website.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Terence, do you mind sharing your credentials here? Many of us respect Rhonda Hovan so we are curious as to your curriculum vitae on this issue. Thank you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Terence said:


> Megora, you have single-handedly made me have literally zero interest in participating in this forum anymore.


I'm sorry. I was very careful in what I said last night, believe it or not. I'm not out to hurt anyone or personally comment on them or their dogs. I would rather comment on what they actually are saying.



> I have news for you, puppies are not little toys made of balsa wood. They jump, they sprint, they cut, they fall, and they slip. They have an incredible capacity for development. I am not telling anyone to take their puppy to an agility competion! Nor am I telling anyone to coax their puppy over agility barriers.


I know. 

But what I'm saying is that things can happen between 4 months and 2 years. You can't make statements that prelim ratings done at 4 months will hold up when the xrays are done again at 24 months. The reason why I say that is because there are people out there who will breed dogs on prelims. 



> I'm simply saying I believe in slow growth and the benefits it adds to physical development.


I'm somebody that believes that you need to both keep a puppy-to-adult dog lean and gently add exercise over time (over 2 years) to build up muscles and endurance. 



> The point of this forum, as I understand it, is to share valuable information.


Well yes. But I think it also is a place where if people dispute information given, they need to speak up. 



> very valuable Biosensor "Super Dog" program to stimulate puppy development and intelligence.


What does that mean?  



> I would be very surprised if I am the only person with whom you have had an issue on this website.


I've spoken out before when I've seen something I thought needed correcting or commenting on. But I don't have issues with people. I think it takes all kinds to make the world go round. As I said, I controlled what I commented on last night.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Okay... I looked it up. I think. 




> 1. Tactile stimulation - holding the pup in one hand, the handler gently stimulates (tickles) the pup between the toes on any one foot using a Q-tip. It is not necessary to see that the pup is feeling the tickle. Time of stimulation 3 - 5 seconds.
> 
> 
> 2. Head held erect - using both hands, the pup is held perpendicular to the ground, (straight up), so that its head is directly above its tail. This is an upward position. Time of stimulation 3 - 5 seconds
> ...


I've actually heard of this now (though not by name). I know people who did this with very young puppies. It's not going stimulate intelligence though.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Never mind


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

So we can put this issue to rest, I am going to re-write my view on the Hovan Slow Growth so that everyone is clear.

1. The Rhonda Hovan slow growth plan is not a starvation method of any type. It is a program that regulates growth over a puppy's first 20 weeks of life, which tend to be the most crucial as far as physiological development.

2. For puppies on the slow growth plan, OFA prelims done at 4 months GENERALLY stay the same (in terms of rating) until 2 years of age. Obviously there is still a possibility of change given the fact that golden retrievers can continue to physically mature even through three years of age. However, if you have a puppy that scores an EXCELLENT for example of OFA Hip and Elbow, there is a very strong possibility this dog will have the same rating once it has matured. I am in no way suggesting that you should breed a dog who hasn't had a proper OFA certification at 24 months. Obviously the closer you get to 2 years of age, the more reliable your OFA rating will be. Everyone knows this. If someone is breeding two dogs based on prelims (of any age), they are probably not that worried about OFA checks and just want to hurry to produce a litter for profit.

3. Fetching and jumping are perfectly safe forms of exercise as long as they are done in moderation (like anything else in life). Your puppy will benefit from sprinting and playing just as it will benefit from leash walks.

4. My credentials include a B.S. in Biology from U of Maryland. I have owned and trained Golden Retrievers over the past 10 years, primarily in the area of search and rescue. I have assisted in breeding and canine pairing numerous times. I have a great deal of knowledge in the area of puppy development and genetic maximization. My male Golden is 2 years and was the show pick of his litter and my female was the second pick of hers. Both are from different breeders, both underwent Biosensor stimulation as puppies. Both underwent slow growth. Both are happy and healthy, normal dogs. And if my younger one continues to develop well, she is going to be on track for agility training once she gets a little older. I hope to breed these dogs in about two years provided they are physically sound and have some solid credentials to their names. And if they don't, I will just enjoy having two beautiful dogs!


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Thank you for providing your information and welcome to the forum. I hope that you stick around long enough to realize that there are a great bunch of people here and the information is welcomed by most. 
I believe that all of the forum members are passionate about the breed and quite often that leads to differing opinions and views. 
There are others, like myself, who welcome all information, do our own research and form our own opinions. 
So thank you again for taking the time to provide this information.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> 2. For puppies on the slow growth plan, OFA prelims done at 4 months GENERALLY stay the same (in terms of rating) until 2 years of age. Obviously there is still a possibility of change given the fact that golden retrievers can continue to physically mature even through three years of age. However, if you have a puppy that scores an EXCELLENT for example of OFA Hip and Elbow, there is a very strong possibility this dog will have the same rating once it has matured. I am in no way suggesting that you should breed a dog who hasn't had a proper OFA certification at 24 months. *Obviously the closer you get to 2 years of age, the more reliable your OFA rating will be*. Everyone knows this.


Thank you. I hate to be witchy about things like this, but there are people out there who tout those prelims like they are finished products. I'm glad you aren't one of those. 



> 3. Fetching and jumping are perfectly safe forms of exercise as long as they are done in moderation (like anything else in life). Your puppy will benefit from sprinting and playing just as it will benefit from leash walks.


Jumping isn't really that safe if you want your dog to go into obedience and agility. If you want to do agility with her, there are some jumps you can train right now, but you have to keep them low. 

Regular walks that become progressively longer the older she gets are awesome for building up muscles and toning. As is being allowed to playfight and roughouse with her brother. 

Something else I was going to suggest is putting a step or something by the bed to keep your girlie from jumping up and off. I did that with my Jacks because he sleeps on my bed during the day (always has) and I don't want the constant up and down to wear on him. 

Good luck with the shows and training.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Terence said:


> Megora, you have single-handedly made me have literally zero interest in participating in this forum anymore. I have news for you, puppies are not little toys made of balsa wood....
> 
> If you don't subscribe to them, that's fine. But sitting here trying to rip apart each of my posts is pathetic. I would be very surprised if I am the only person with whom you have had an issue on this website.


Excuse me, but I think this post is 100 times ruder and more aimed to "rip apart" than anything Megora said! How is this type of argument style going to help you make your point? If you are going to come onto the forum and make strong points about a controversial issue, you need to be prepared for the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you. And that's okay! But to be mad because someone has a different opinion than you and is cogently summarizing her opinions in a point-counterpoint manner? What is the point? I think responding this way to criticism that was in no way personal but instead was thoughtful and intelligent, is what is truly "pathetic."


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't particularly think the slow grow method is controversial. Maybe it is, but I think most of the controversy is because people don't actually understand it. Even if there is no concrete evidence that it will prevent HD or ED, it certainly will not hurt a puppy and at a minimum, the benefits of not having an overweight puppy (at least IMO) outweigh the limited risks (again, IMO) of being on a slow growth plan. 

That being said, I don't think it is generally appreciated to go into any situation, internet forum or in real life, and purport to be an expert in canine growth. There are many experienced breeders and owners on this forum, and owning potential show prospects (which is what your dogs are) doesn't make you (or anyone) an expert on conformation, canine growth, breeding, etc etc. My "show prospect" boy just finished his AKC championship a couple weeks ago and I have two others that I am hoping turn out as well, but that doesn't change the fact that I still preface most comments I make about conformation and goldens in general with "As a relative newbie/novice to goldens/conformation....." And most experienced breeders/exhibitors/owners are more than happy to admit that they don't know everything. I am hopeful that the tone of the posts was unintentional, but you need to understand that the method of presenting the information certainly rubbed a few people the wrong way.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

I appreciate your post Jack. I think a few of my posts came across as arrogant and stubborn. I certainly apologize for that. We are all at this forum because we love our dogs, right? So I think I was wrong to be so combative. When Megora originally said:

"What the heck are you doing having a puppy jumping 3 feet?"

That set me off because I felt it was rude and unnecessary...it seemed like she was essentially calling me an idiot because I was presenting an example of how athletic my puppy is in the context of a discussion about slow growth.

I thank you all for your input. I will approach this forum differently from now on.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Terence said:


> "What the heck are you doing having a puppy jumping 3 feet?"
> 
> That set me off because I felt it was rude and unnecessary...it seemed like she was essentially calling me an idiot....


I was astounded you were bragging about letting your 20 week old puppy jump 3 foot barriers. Even after you quickly changed that to a 3 foot off the ground bed, I'm still surprised you would be letting your growing pup do that. Or be on a public forum essentially suggesting this is OK. Because this is a public forum and you have a lot of new owners reading in threads like this, you have to be careful about what you promote. 

And fwiw... young goldens will run, jump, gallop, fly, climb walls - as long as they feel good and even if they don't. That does not necessarily have anything to do with the feeding/exercise method you are using.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Megora, I'm just curious, what are you credentials? I'm curious because people have been asking me. Are you a breeder? Handler? A vet?

Because you seem to have some very strong opinions and despite my apology to the forum and explanation still continue to press your point. So rather than get irritated. I want you to please explain to me what makes you an expert on golden retriever puppies.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Terence said:


> Megora, I'm just curious, what are you credentials? I'm curious because people have been asking me. Are you a breeder? Handler? A vet?
> 
> Because you seem to have some very strong opinions and despite my apology to the forum and explanation still continue to press your point. So rather than get irritated. I want you to please explain to me what makes you an expert on golden retriever puppies.


Well... I don't consider myself an expert. But I think I know a couple things. Or things stuck in my brain while going in one ear and out the other, so to speak. 

I'm an experienced golden owner and raised, trained, loved 4 wonderful goldens over the past 20+ years. I have been training and actively attending classes for about 15 of those years. I'm sure we would have had more goldens during that time, except we definitely set a limit at only two dogs at a time. We briefly had three when we had our Danny, Jacks, and our collie all together... and may go back to three when I bring home our next puppy, but we mainly just keep two at a time. 

During those years my sister and I (the two dog training people in our family) attended household obedience classes and worked our way into competition obedience classes. Because our dogs were so "athletic", we didn't start entering trials with them until they were 4 and 6. But we took obedience classes, agility classes, and even some random retrieve classes through that time. These were all weekly, every week - all those years. We also helped/assisted at a few classes during that time. And this was under the direct mentoring of our instructor back then who was very deeply involved with the breed - was a successful breeder and handler. She was very concerned about the health of the breed and the handling and care necessary to raise healthy and sound young goldens. 

We experienced various tragic or learning-the-hard-way things about breeders, training, health, joints... during those 20+ years. These are things that drive you to form a very good relationship with a knowledgable vet or two, and learn from them as to the best way to avoid each and every one of those bad things the next time.

I also have many friends who are breeders and show the breed. And I've pretty much made like a sponge around them - I do admire them and see my friendship with them as a chance to learn more about the breed I love. 

I am not a breeder. I will never be a breeder. Because I own intact dogs, I do have to deal with a lot of assumption that the only reason to leave dogs intact is because of an intention to breed. Or the only reason to show dogs is an intention to breed. Or the only reason to compete with dogs is an intention to breed.

I love my dog and competing in obedience and going to our weekly classes and training every day - these things are what I do because I thoroughly enjoy it. It's my way of playing golf. Breeding isn't the natural progression of owning a very nice and accomplished dog. 

My concerns about hips, elbows, eyes, OFA stuff... these all have to do with the welfare of my dogs. The ultimate goal shouldn't always be "to breed". I would hope that people aren't just buying puppies left and right and planning to breed them without thoroughly making contacts with the right people and really getting involved with the breed.

I try to read and learn as much as I can from top people in obedience in our area (remember dogs need to be athletic and fit for obedience too) who I take lessons from. I am also listening to and learning from people elsewhere, particularly those who are very knowledgable about the health, structure, condition, and keeping of these dogs from puppyhood to geriatric seniorhood. 

Our two old boys lived to be almost 13 and almost 14.... and it is my goal to see my Jacks outlive both of those dear old men. And I want him to be active and healthy every single one of those old years. I want him walking and playing with me in his old age.

As far as my understanding of raising goldens - it comes (again) from raising four of them and being the main person to handle and train three of those dogs. It also comes from having a lot of friends with goldens and being around a lot of people who have goldens. 

And I'm always learning.

GRF especially has been VERY helpful in edu-ma-cating me on various things that I knew very little about or had limited understanding of.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

So you and I have a pretty similar amount of experience handling these dogs. The only difference is you have more posts on this website, which makes me a newer member, even though I have no less experience than most people here. So how is it that you make such assertions about the validity of my information? I wasn't "bragging" as you call it about how high my puppy can jump to encourage others to try jumping their puppies. 

You do realize that puppies have much more stress and lateral torque placed on their hips and joints by playing with each other right? And yet you said:

"Regular walks that become progressively longer the older she gets are awesome for building up muscles and toning. As is being allowed to playfight and roughouse with her brother."

So in other words, you think it is better to have a 4 1/2 month old puppy playing around with an 85 pound male than jumping 36 inches in the air under her own power without any encouragement? I'm sorry I just don't agree with you. I would be far more concerned about him landing on her or throwing her around then I would about her jumping high in the air. Do I let them play fight? Of course, they love each other and it forms social bonds. But it is closely monitored.

As for her jumping, I said it before, I wouldn't encourage her to jump or clear barriers (or a bed). But if she does it on her own and shows no signs of discomfort or structural instability, I'm not going to stress about it.

And just so everyone knows, she has had her hips checked by our vet and he said they look great.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> You think it is better to have a 4 1/2 month old puppy playing around with an 85 pound male than jumping 36 inches in the air under her own power without any encouragement?


In a word - Yes.

This is why:



> Do I let them play fight? Of course, they love each other and it forms social bonds. But it is closely monitored.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Megora is a well liked, well respected member of this forum and I daresay that she was probably voicing many of our thoughts when she expressed some curiosity and surprise regarding a 4 month old pup jumping 3 feet into the air. Now you've cleared that up and I'm sure everyone is relieved that you're not forcing your puppy to jump through hoops (literally ) and I'm sure we can put things to rest.

Aside from that, I enjoyed reading this thread for the most part. The slow growth program is important, and I think it's a great thing to be aware of.


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## Golden&Yorkie (Mar 11, 2012)

Florabora...well said!


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Fair enough, I think what confused me is that anyone would think I would ever force my puppy to do any exercise and now I'm realizing that's how it came across. I just assumed something like that is so ignorant that no one on this forum would suggest it. I mean, it's common sense right? 

Megora, you have been driving me crazy. But, I think your heart is in the right place and you certainly know how to express your opinions (you must have a J.D.). 

Bring it in for a hug.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Terence said:


> . I think a few of my posts came across as arrogant and stubborn.



Because I'm crabby today, I'm going to say this.
YA THINK?

you came off as super arrogant, talking down to the unwashed masses, and when someone who is a well respected member of the forum asked some questions, you answered in the same tone.

Here's a clue - that's not a good way to get people to listen to your message. Just sayin

Back to your regularly scheduled programs.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Terence said:


> Fair enough, I think what confused me is that anyone would think I would ever force my puppy to do any exercise and now I'm realizing that's how it came across. I just assumed something like that is so ignorant that no one on this forum would suggest it. I mean, it's common sense right?
> 
> Megora, you have been driving me crazy. But, I think your heart is in the right place and you certainly know how to express your opinions (you must have a J.D.).
> 
> Bring it in for a hug.


No matter how you word your posts on the internet, they are taken out of context regularly. Common sense doesn't exist on the internet 

I agree you were attacked. And for the record I speak for myself


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Wow, laprincessa, that's a lot of drama considering this entire argument is over. If you will notice, other members of the forum were equally arrogant. 

Thank you Wyatt, at least someone gets it.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

I didn't see arrogance at all... I guess it's all a matter of perspective and what mood a person is in when they read certain posts. One person's arrogance is another person's confidence in one's skill and ability to share information.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

So then I guess you would equally agree, my assertions about slow growth, for which I provided documentation, are not arrogant, but rather my confidence in the information I provided?


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

Must be a full moon.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm just going to say that I don't think jumping on and off beds is a good idea. We have a really low bed at home (lower than her height) and I still discourage jumping. Right now we are on vacation and I'm having such a hard time trying to keep her from jumping onto the higher beds.. She's 23 weeks old and just started to get tired of being lifted up into the car and will try to jump. Puppies will run, rough house, and jump etc (and not just your puppy), but if you can limit and prevent unnecessary stress and potentially damaging movements to their joints, why not do it?


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Terence said:


> Fair enough, I think what confused me is that anyone would think I would ever force my puppy to do any exercise and now I'm realizing that's how it came across. I just assumed something like that is so ignorant that no one on this forum would suggest it. I mean, it's common sense right?


No, that is not just common sense. Not everyone knows that and not everyone is as educated about dog growth and how to keep their hips and joints safe as you and many of our forum members. We experience on this forum plenty of new or inexperienced members who do not know these things and who truly do need to learn what to do and what not to do, and Megora was only trying to make sure that other dog owners didn't read your post and think that this was a good idea. Her heart was in the right place, as was her logic.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay, I know I deleted my original post in this thread as it was not going to be productive so let me start over with
Welcome to the GRF!! :wavey:




Terence said:


> So then I guess you would equally agree, my assertions about slow growth, for which I provided documentation, are not arrogant, but rather my confidence in the information I provided?


Just as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder so is arrogance. Often in life - not just the internet - confidence can and is often referred to as arrogance. Doesn't mean it is, doesn't mean it ain't. Just the way it is. You will very little on the GRF is black and white as we all have our own beliefs and none of us agree on everything. And actually that is why I keep coming back here. :doh:


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't have a problem with letting my puppies jump ONTO things, like onto a bed or a table (or in Flip's case, onto the stove). What I don't let them do is jump OFF or OVER things. Flip did tons of leaping up onto stuff as well as leaping straight up in the air, and he came back OFA excellent. But once he was on top of something, I would pick him up and set him on the floor. Once he jumped the 3 foot ring gates, but that was an accident (accident for me to let him, he did it on purpose)


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> No, that is not just common sense. Not everyone knows that and not everyone is as educated about dog growth and how to keep their hips and joints safe as you and many of our forum members. We experience on this forum plenty of new or inexperienced members who do not know these things and who truly do need to learn what to do and what not to do, and Megora was only trying to make sure that other dog owners didn't read your post and think that this was a good idea. Her heart was in the right place, as was her logic.


You don't have to be educated to understand that "forcing" a dog to do anything is wrong. I believe that was the "common sense" Terence was speaking about.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Terence said:


> So then I guess you would equally agree, my assertions about slow growth, for which I provided documentation, are not arrogant, but rather my confidence in the information I provided?


Confidence comes from experience and not just knowledge. You obviously practice what you have knowledge of which then gives you the confidence to share in order to spread the belief in maintaining the wellness of our beloved pets.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You don't have to be educated to understand that "forcing" a dog to do anything is wrong. I believe that was the "common sense" Terence was speaking about.


I can't say I agree with that, my dogs are forced to do things they don't want to do.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I can't say I agree with that, my dogs are forced to do things they don't want to do.


 
Good point! And a perfect example of how things are taken wrong on the internet. Since the conversation in my post was about the safety of their hips and joints, perhaps I should have said "forcefully harm". Not a question of forcing because they simply don't want to do something.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You don't have to be educated to understand that "forcing" a dog to do anything is wrong. I believe that was the "common sense" Terence was speaking about.



I disagree. If everyone knew this than I would not see people running in the middle of the hot summer day in high humidity on cement when their dogs clearly are in distress. If everyone knew this I would not see people playing games of frisbee involving a TON of jumping in the field by my house with four month old dogs. I think that many people are not educated about these issues, you just have to look around. Even to a more extreme example - people leaving their dogs in the car on an extremely hot day, resulting in death. I think it is common sense not to do this, but clearly people need to be educated on this issue, or else we wouldn't see it happen every year.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> I disagree. If everyone knew this than I would not see people running in the middle of the hot summer day in high humidity on cement when their dogs clearly are in distress. If everyone knew this I would not see people playing games of frisbee involving a TON of jumping in the field by my house with four month old dogs. I think that many people are not educated about these issues, you just have to look around. Even to a more extreme example - people leaving their dogs in the car on an extremely hot day, resulting in death. I think it is common sense not to do this, but clearly people need to be educated on this issue, or else we wouldn't see it happen every year.


I know alot of educated people with no common sense If you lack common sense, all the education in the world won't help.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I was a bit confused by the initial post, as it was introduced as if it were correcting inaccuracies but then went on to present information that's not controversial at all. I've never heard anybody on GRF argue for the benefits of chubby puppies. I think that may be where some of the initial negative reaction to the OP's tone came from. It was like he or she was here to correct this big misunderstanding we were all operating under, even though we aren't. That probably wasn't the intended tone, but it did come off oddly.

The only claim that seemed weird—and it was what Megora pointed out—was the claim that 4 month OFA prelims were going to be significantly more useful in puppies raised on the Hovan slow growth plan than with puppies raised on other plans. Slow growth is probably better than no plan at all or a fat puppy, since slow growth is demonstrated to reduce bone deformity, but I'm not sure it would be a statistically significant difference, nor am I sure that anybody's ever proven the Hovan plan to be better in this regard than other slow growth plans.

And as far as "forcing" a pup, many Goldens are loyal and driven at a very young age and will endure discomfort and pain while showing little or no sign of it, if it means keeping up with their person, obeying a command, or carrying out an instinct. So even if you're not using physical force, you might accidentally hike too far, run too fast, or work too long. It's something to be aware of, and common sense might not be enough if you aren't experienced with how dogs (and Goldens in particular) can act.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I was a bit confused by the initial post, as it was introduced as if it were correcting inaccuracies but then went on to present information that's not controversial at all. I've never heard anybody on GRF argue for the benefits of chubby puppies. I think that may be where some of the initial negative reaction to the OP's tone came from. It was like he or she was here to correct this big misunderstanding we were all operating under, even though we aren't. That probably wasn't the intended tone, but it did come off oddly.
> 
> The only claim that seemed weird—and it was what Megora pointed out—was the claim that 4 month OFA prelims were going to be significantly more useful in puppies raised on the Hovan slow growth plan than with puppies raised on other plans. Slow growth is probably better than no plan at all or a fat puppy, since slow growth is demonstrated to reduce bone deformity, but I'm not sure it would be a statistically significant difference, nor am I sure that anybody's ever proven the Hovan plan to be better in this regard than other slow growth plans.
> 
> And as far as "forcing" a pup, many Goldens are loyal and driven at a very young age and will endure discomfort and pain while showing little or no sign of it, if it means keeping up with their person, obeying a command, or carrying out an instinct. So even if you're not using physical force, you might accidentally hike too far, run too fast, or work too long. It's something to be aware of, and common sense might not be enough if you aren't experienced with how dogs (and Goldens in particular) can act.


Wonderfully put! I completely agree with everything said here. Our issues are NOT with the idea that promoting a proper body weight and slow growth and etc are good for a dog, that is not controversial. Our issue was with a) the way it was said and b) the other things you spoke of, such as preliminary ratings on 4 month old puppies or jumping three feet.

Anyhow, I think we can all agree to keep our dogs healthy and at a proper weight!


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

You do all realize that Rhonda Hovan herself is the one who says that 20 weeks is an excellent time for a preliminary hip X-ray right? I didn't just pull that out of thin air. Some of you act like doing the X-ray is going to hurt the dog. It's just a tool to help you see where your puppy is at. People waste all sorts of money at the vet on BS products and useless appointments. A $200 trip to the orthopedist is not exactly an outrageous idea. And yes, you will have to make other trips later on. 

I originally started this thread because there were people on this website saying that slow growth was starving their dogs. That, to me, is a sign of ignorance and someone not knowing what a golden retriever puppy is supposed to look like. As far as the jumping comment, everyone realizes the danger of jumping comes from landing OFF high obstacles, not jumping on them as was stated here. 

Megora, instead of saying, "What the heck are you doing having your puppy jump 3 feet?". Why didn't you say something more reasonable like, "How often does your puppy do this?" or "What is she jumping over?" That way I could have clarified the statement without being attacked. 

And by the way vcm5 I didnt appreciate your, "Back to your regularly scheduled programming." comment. Who are you? Megora's defender?

I never said that I was an expert, but do I think I have more knowledge than the average owner? **** right I do. And I'm not going to call myself a newbie because I haven't posted on this website. That has nothing to do with overall knowledge of the breed or puppy development.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Al Corley was the former head of the OFA... From my point of view, I tell all clients that it is imperative to keep their puppies lean. I switch my dogs over to adult food at four months and recommend that as well to clients. I started doing this with golden #3 and have done this with the subsequent ones. My girls have all had OFA clear elbows and there were four OFA GOOD hips and one OFA FAIR out of them. They do go up and down hardwood stairs as pups since they sleep upstairs in our bedroom... They also jump up and down from the couch as pups. Emmie used to jump off the back of the couch as a pup... It gave me a heart attack, but she has clear elbows. I do not start doing obedience jumping until they are two. I do not do prelims as my dogs aren't going anywhere once they are mine...
I have seen bad prelims go to passing when the dog was of age. And passing prelims go to failed when the dog was of age. I have personally had a golden OFA FAIR at 24 months go to mildly unilaterally dysplastic at 44 months. She went on to a UD and RA, with two RE legs when she died from hemangio at almost twelve. I am skeptical of doing very young OFA's.... I am not a fan of repeated running, jumping, twisting, and turning ... In any dog, regardless of age. I also take my dogs' conformation into account when I decide whether or not they will go on obedience... Getting off topic, but I think most GRF members would agree that chubby Goldens are not healthy pups and that most of us believe that there is a reason for doing OFA's at two years or greater.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Great post Sally! Clear and professional. THIS is the type of feedback and response I was looking for on this website.

Thank you again for your insights.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Terence said:


> Megora, instead of saying, "What the heck are you doing having your puppy jump 3 feet?". Why didn't you say something more reasonable like, "How often does your puppy do this?" or "What is she jumping over?" That way I could have clarified the statement without being attacked.
> 
> And by the way vcm5 I didnt appreciate your, "Back to your regularly scheduled programming." comment. Who are you? Megora's defender?
> 
> I never said that I was an expert, but do I think I have more knowledge than the average owner? **** right I do. And I'm not going to call myself a newbie because I haven't posted on this website. That has nothing to do with overall knowledge of the breed or puppy development.


This isn't going to win you any friends here on the forum.....just saying the comments against the two members should probably be done via PM....Just saying.

As to the second comment, well...it could be misinterpreted...just saying....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Terence said:


> You do all realize that Rhonda Hovan herself is the one who says that 20 weeks is an excellent time for a preliminary hip X-ray right? I didn't just pull that out of thin air. Some of you act like doing the X-ray is going to hurt the dog. It's just a tool to help you see where your puppy is at. People waste all sorts of money at the vet on BS products and useless appointments. A $200 trip to the orthopedist is not exactly an outrageous idea. And yes, you will have to make other trips later on.


I think the issue was with the claim that the Hovan plan was proven to create more correspondence between the 20 week and 24 month results than other plans. I'm not sure that's proven in any kind of satisfactory way. If Hovan herself makes that claim, I haven't seen it.



Terence said:


> I originally started this thread because there were people on this website saying that slow growth was starving their dogs.


Where? Can you link the thread? I might understand a bit better if I read the original posts that lead you to post about "False Information."


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Hovan writes, "Four months Old is an excellent time to do an OFA preliminary hip X-ray, because pups raised on the slow grow plan have a very high likelihood of rating the same at this age as they will at their two year old final X-ray."

And in this quote, she is paraphrasing Al Corley who is, as Sally pointed out, the former head of the OFA.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Terence said:


> Hovan writes, "Four months Old is an excellent time to do an OFA preliminary hip X-ray, because pups raised on the slow grow plan have a very high likelihood of rating the same at this age as they will at their two year old final X-ray."


Is this meant to answer my question? Because this quote doesn't claim that the Hovan plan offers better results than other plans. You originally said "the plan is advantageous because it allows owners to do a preliminary OFA hip check on their puppies at just 4 months of age." 

Here are the two quibbles with your original statement: First, you can do a 4 month OFA prelim on _any_ dog, regardless of growth plan. Second, even Hovan herself doesn't quite claim that her slow grow plan offers _better_ consistency than other plans.

It's not that I disagree. I slow grow my dogs (though not on Hovan's specific feeding guidelines but rather with a daily hands-on assessment of the puppy's lean muscle). I also use an LBP food. I just take issue with the concept we all need correcting (btw, I searched the forum, and I only found one person who originally called the plan "starving" the puppy but even that person had turned around by later in the thread). I also take issue with some of the absolutist statements made that aren't quite true (e.g., that slow grow allows you to do OFA at 20 weeks).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - about 90% of dogs who pass hips at 4 months also pass at 24 months. That's according to the OFA website, and the stats are based on that same Corley study from 1997.

However, it should be noted that the Corley study _did not examine diet_. It simply examined the OFA database. So I think it's misleading to quote the one line from Hovan's plan out of context: "Four months old is also an excellent time to do an OFA preliminary hip x-ray, because pups raised on the Slow Grow Plan have a very high likelihood of rating the same at this age as they will at their two year old final x-ray" (Corley et al, 1997). The Corley study demonstrated the reliability of prelims done at early ages. It did not demonstrate anything about the growth plans of the dogs in question.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

I never said the Hovan plan is the only growth plan which offers better consistency. We aren't talking about hovan slow growth vs other slow growth. We are talking about slow growth versus non-slow growth. And in this circumstance, there is better consistency with regard to the relationship between 4 month old preliminary OFA results and the final ones at 2 years.

What about my original statement doesn't correspond to this logic? I'm making an absolutIst statement? What should I say? 

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum so I dont know anything even though I have over 20 years of experience raising puppies, 10 of those with Goldens?


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Terence said:


> I never said the Hovan plan is the only growth plan which offers better consistency. We aren't talking about hovan slow growth vs other slow growth. We are talking about slow growth versus non-slow growth. And in this circumstance, there is better consistency with regard to the relationship between 4 month old preliminary OFA results and the final ones at 2 years.
> 
> What about my original statement doesn't correspond to this logic? I'm making an absolutIst statement? What should I say?
> 
> Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum so I dont know anything even though I have over 20 years of experience raising puppies, 10 of those with Goldens?


I really don't see anyone insinuating that you "don't know anything"; however, your repeated insistence that you are uber knowledgeable in this subject is getting a bit tiring. I can tell that you know what you're talking about and you are passionate about it. I respect that. There's no need to rub our noses in it, though.

Anyhow, welcome to the forum.  Maybe posting some published articles about this subject would be helpful for those interested in learning more. As I think you've figured out, there do exist plenty of people who aren't entirely familiar with the slow growth plan. I myself only know a little.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

FloraBora, I'm not trying to rub anyone's nose in my level of experience. Frankly, I don't think I should have to explain my background in such depth on this forum. But the attitude I have been getting from people is, you are new to the forum, therefore you should be overly humble and tentative about stating your opinion.

I'm sorry but this is completely illogical. Being humble is one thing (a good thing), but being tentative about my statements is ridiculous. If I'm going to take time to post on a website, I'm not going to write some like...

"Well I'm new here and think it is possible that there has been some misrepresentation on slow growth programs, possibly, if you will all allow me to write that."

Given me a break. I saw subject I felt needed review so I posted about it. I made statements which I believe are true based on published materials and experiences with puppies.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Tippy, that is true, the Corley study does not specifically identify diet which is why I explained Hovan is paraphrasing Al Corley because she believes her slow growth plan helps lead to better structural development up to 20 weeks. 

THEN she points out, once you have achieved this optimum growth up to 20 weeks, an OFA prelim is not a bad idea because according to Corley, these results will have a 90 percent consistency up to 2 years of age when the final check is done.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

"Well I'm new here and think it is possible that there has been some misrepresentation on slow growth programs, possibly, if you will all allow me to write that."

Actually, something _like_ that to ingratiate yourself would have been more appropriate. Then pontificate away!

We are like an established pack...if you come rushing right at us and confront face-to-face, our hackles go up. A more appropriate approach gets much better results.

Welcome to the forum, I'm sure you have a lot to offer!


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

To everyone:

Look you either believe in the benefits of slow growth or you don't. This is not a difficult concept. Puppies that develop more slowly and are kept lean have more gradual growth which puts less stress on their joints and soft tissues. That, in combination with a good exercise plan help to stabilize joints through the development of muscle support and connective tissue.

This stabilization is what prevents injury when, for example, the puppy jumps up onto a 3 foot bed. Or tumbles around at the park. Or chases birds. Or any of the other crazy stuff puppies like to do.

If you don't use slow growth, you run the risk of your puppy getting too large too fast and developing structural instability because the connective tissue cannot keep up with bone growth.

I rest my case.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

I appreciate Terence's contribution to this forum and the tenacity to converse with those who appear to be on the other side of the fence although they are tentatively agreeing with the topic. 

For your information I have seen threads where the statement 'you're starving your dogs' on this slow growth program. I'm not going to do a search for them though.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Thank you Deb. I actually really appreciate that.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Terence said:


> I never said the Hovan plan is the only growth plan which offers better consistency. We aren't talking about hovan slow growth vs other slow growth. We are talking about slow growth versus non-slow growth. And in this circumstance, there is better consistency with regard to the relationship between 4 month old preliminary OFA results and the final ones at 2 years.


There _probably_ is, but stating it as fact is taking it well past what the evidence actually demonstrates. I'm not disagreeing with the essentials, but too many things in GR nutrition get taken as gospel when they aren't based in sound evidence, so I think it's important to make clear distinctions between what's been proven and what really hasn't. We may find that slow growth doesn't provide significant protection from hip dysplasia, but really only protects against pano and long bone curvature. It may do nothing for ED, ultimately. Maybe it does. There isn't proof yet. It's a good idea, but it shouldn't be delivered as gospel.



Terence said:


> What about my original statement doesn't correspond to this logic? I'm making an absolutIst statement? What should I say?


You should say that OFA prelims are approximately 90% accurate for passing hips from 4 months to 24 months (and this is just for hips, btw, not elbows), and that you _think_, based on the evidence, that slow growth would lower the chance of a dog passing at 4 months and failing at 24, but it hasn't been proven or even studied.

You just stated as fact that the Hovan growth plan allowed you to do accurate prelims at 4 months, which really, really makes it sound like it's been proven to be more consistent than other diets.

And honestly, you wouldn't see such scrutiny of your statements if you didn't present them as gospel corrections of the misinformation floating around the forum. Like I said, I found _one_ poster who said the slow growth was starving a puppy, but then admitted later in the same thread that it wasn't.

Nothing in Corley et al. has anything to do with diet. It's not "paraphrasing" the paper to suggest that slow growth improves OFA outcomes. It's adding to it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Here's the problem with OFA and hips/elbows: if I radiograph a client's dog and it is blatantly dysplastic, those clients do not send the rads in... it skews all of the statistics. When my bitch "became" dysplastic, I sent the rads in, and her clearance was "negated". At least with CERF, the ophthalmologist send in his/her forms even if the owner does not. It gives a better overview of what are the true eye issues...


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

Tippy, again you are misquoting what I said. With regard to Hovan slow growth, she does not say that slow growth improves OFA outcomes, she says that slow growth provides stable and steady growth in such a way up to 20 weeks, that these prelim results would have a higher chance of matching the results at 2 years as a result of the plan. Think of it as genetic optimization for you biologists out there. If you don't agree with this, then you don't subscribe to the Hovan slow growth plan which is fine. Not everyone does.

This is as opposed to non-slow growth where the 4 month OFA results have a higher chance of being different because the accelerated growth can cause problems as the dog matures. This is an important distinction.

And as a side note, in my opinion, based on what I have personally seen and read, slow growth puppies tend to have better musculoskeletal stability as they mature. Almost all of these studies we are discussing are observational, not experimental so obviously there could be several confounding factors which can skew the data.

It seems like all of this fuss is because you and several others think I'm delivering my information as gospel. That's it? That's the big issue people are having?

It sounds to me like the scrutiny doesn't have anything to do with the actually information and has more to do with the fact that people don't like a new member coming in and making assertions, even if they are based on research and experience.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Terrance, you don't want people to say anything in opposition to your assertions and you even PM'd me saying we should all make peace and get to talking about dogs instead of all this. Which I'm fine with, and it's why I've been holding my peace even though minutes after you sent me that PM you went right back out and used my name in vain (heehee) in the same post that you meanly attacked another member here just because she was supporting me. 

You've been going on and on in circles and it really is time to let it go. 

Unless I misread your earlier post - you say you've been involved with goldens for 10 years and been training dogs in search and rescue before that? When you say search and rescue, what does that mean? And involved with breeding other breeds? Maybe share and show off pictures of your dogs? Do you have the little girl in obedience training right now? Is the 2 year old male in obedience classes right now. Will you be doing obedience and agility with him? What are their names? 

Those questions probably are going to set you off again because you feel we are attacking your credentials or you don't want to disclose your identity or something like that. But I mean those questions honestly. If you train dogs and are into obedience training and will get into agility with your little girl - I think that is awesome. I think more people should get serious about getting out to dog classes and shows and enjoying that special time with their dogs. 

Try to remember that your personal beliefs or ideas are not going to be accepted by everyone who hears them. And that should be fine. What matters is showing a little humor and less sensitivity. Definitely, when a person's reaction to not getting approval or agreement is turning around and attacking people or talking about being more intelligent than most pet owners, that shows a lack of confidence and insecurity. If you are truly confident in the method that you espouse, the results will stand on their own.

Fwiw - Tippy here is somebody I like to tease (because he lives in tick hell) and his ideas of training methods are quite different than most in competition and he wants to convert us.  He likes to type these long (longer than mine) posts with technical language and things he drags up to support his beliefs. And that is all fine. The fact is that I know I can say things in disagreement to him without any fear of him falling apart. Actually, it just encourages him to write even longer corrective posts double time. (I'm teasing you Tippy).


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Terence said:


> You do all realize that Rhonda Hovan herself is the one who says that 20 weeks is an excellent time for a preliminary hip X-ray right? I didn't just pull that out of thin air. Some of you act like doing the X-ray is going to hurt the dog. It's just a tool to help you see where your puppy is at. People waste all sorts of money at the vet on BS products and useless appointments. A $200 trip to the orthopedist is not exactly an outrageous idea. And yes, you will have to make other trips later on.
> 
> I originally started this thread because there were people on this website saying that slow growth was starving their dogs. That, to me, is a sign of ignorance and someone not knowing what a golden retriever puppy is supposed to look like. As far as the jumping comment, everyone realizes the danger of jumping comes from landing OFF high obstacles, not jumping on them as was stated here.
> 
> ...


I know Rhonda. 20 weeks is not the only prelim she does. She generally does several prior to the final.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Laura.... why does she do several prelims? Is it for research?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Terence said:


> Tippy, again you are misquoting what I said.


I directly quoted what you said.




Terence said:


> With regard to Hovan slow growth, she does not say that slow growth improves OFA outcomes, she says that slow growth provides stable and steady growth in such a way up to 20 weeks, that these prelim results would have a higher chance of matching the results at 2 years as a result of the plan. Think of it as genetic optimization for you biologists out there. If you don't agree with this, then you don't subscribe to the Hovan slow growth plan which is fine. Not everyone does.


It may be true that the slow growth plan increases the chances of a match between 4 months and 24 months, but there's no proof for that at all, particularly not in the one paper cited so far in this discussion. And calling that into question doesn't mean that an individual doesn't "subscribe" to the plan. It just means that there's no hard evidence to support the claim. That makes it unproven, not false.




Terence said:


> It seems like all of this fuss is because you and several others think I'm delivering my information as gospel. That's it? That's the big issue people are having?


Largely, yes. When the attitude is "I decided to come in and correct your information" and our information isn't wrong, yeah, people get their hackles up. Particularly when the information you're touting as fact isn't proven.



Terence said:


> It sounds to me like the scrutiny doesn't have anything to do with the actually information and has more to do with the fact that people don't like a new member coming in and making assertions, even if they are based on research and experience.


Nah. I have no problem with your post history. I have a problem with the attitude that all of these claims are based on rock-solid proof when in fact very few of them are. There's already too much dogma in the dog food debate, and you came in to rebut an opinion that none of us hold by providing "facts" that are largely unsubstantiated. That's my problem.


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## Terence (Jun 13, 2012)

http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal feeding of large breed puppies.pdf

This is a paper about growth optimization. It was written about large breeds, most specifically Great Danes but the evidence still supports the concept behind slow growth with retrievers.

Tippy, you say:

"It just means that there's no hard evidence to support the claim. That makes it unproven, not false."

Do you realize that there are very few if any studies with regard to dogs, that could truly result in "hard evidence" as you call it. As I explained in my last post, virtually all canine growth information, particularly with regard to nutrition are based on observational studies, not experimental. Because of the confounding factors such as geographic differences, genetic variation, and water quality it would be incredibly difficult to determine with the exact scientific certainly that you seem to require.

SO, I did what all of us at this forum do. I based my evidence and my assertions on the BEST information available. Rhonda Hovan, from her own observations with puppies, wrote a paper outlining her slow growth plan and why she believes it is optimal for puppy development.

You aren't going to find many scientific researchers who are going to provide hard evidence from experimental canine studies because there generally isn't funding to complete these studies.

Tippy I respect what your saying and I like the fact that you are very specific about your desire to see actual scientific research. But I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the nature of my original post. If I had changed the title to, "A Discussion on the Benefits of Slow Growth" I bet you would have had no issue. 

Check out that paper. You might find it a little more substantial.


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

In my little experience reading books, interacting with the vet, trainers, breeder and other experts, I have come to the conclusion to never use the words "true" and "false." Everything is just an opinion. This thread included.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Terence said:


> Tippy I respect what your saying and I like the fact that you are very specific about your desire to see actual scientific research. But I think you are making a lot of assumptions about the nature of my original post. If I had changed the title to, "A Discussion on the Benefits of Slow Growth" I bet you would have had no issue.


I've read the paper in question, btw. It's been cited quite a bit in our conversations about feeding and puppy growth on the forum over the last year or two. It's also cited in the Eukanuba white paper on how they developed their LBP blend.

Yes, I would not have had an issue if you had presented inferences as inferences and facts as facts, rather than the attitude of correcting everybody. I don't like being corrected.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Terence said:


> And by the way vcm5 I didnt appreciate your, "Back to your regularly scheduled programming." comment. Who are you? Megora's defender?


Excuse me, but I didn't say that?? That was said by laprincessa, not me.

Also, I didn't mean to be Megora's "defender," I just felt like you were taking what she was saying way out of context and being overly defensive instead of realizing that she was just trying to have an intelligent debate, not trying to be mean or anything.


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## Yuki (Oct 5, 2011)

i just read through some comments and would like to share my exp with slow growth plan and exercise of my two dogs.

my previous golden was xrayed at 4 months of age and the vet said "she is prone to HD" i had to put her on supplements, watch her weight (slow growth plan was suggested) and i had to watch out for her so would not to jump in order to avoid more damage. as a pup she rarely jumped or stood on hind legs. after she turned 2.5 years the vet said "she is doing much better but you cannot avoid it completely even after trying so hard". 

diet, exercise, supplements everything was given yet my Saya was still prone to HD until the last day i saw her and she was sent away to another home. 

for my current pup Yuki i have followed the same plan of feeding, supplements and i keep an eye on him so he doesnt strain his joints though the vet said "he is perfect". as he is still a puppy i havent done the xrays yet i will be getting them done when he turns 1 and again when he turns 2. he is more active than Saya was but i still keep watch on him. i didnt allow him to jump up or off from couches or bed etc until he turned 6 months old. i did it as a precaution and it seems that it was a good thing. 

i think watching the weight, giving the right nutrition and watching out for your puppy or dog is the best thing to do. i havent read any papers linked in some comments i am just speaking from my little experience with my 2 dogs.


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## bvgoldens (Dec 8, 2014)

I find it interesting that Rhonda Hovan does not agree with the grain-free diet for puppies/dogs. From Rhonda Hovan earlier this month: "The most important thing to know about dog food in general is that, for normal dogs/puppies, the selection of food makes little difference to overall health, development, and longevity. However, it probably makes sense to avoid ultra-cheap foods, fad diets, and boutique foods made by small companies with few resources to test foods adequately. Just as with people, variety is a good way to ensure that dogs are getting a balanced diet. This can be easily done by changing foods with each bag, rotating between about 3-5 selections. Personally, I select a couple large companies that I trust (such as Purina and Eukanuba), and then pick a couple of different formulations (such as salmon, chicken, lamb. 30/20, etc). Although there are no scientific data that I know of regarding this, I have seen serious abnormal skeletal development in puppies fed grain-free foods, so I caution people about using this with puppies (Grain-free is considered a fad diet because there is no scientific evidence that it is more beneficial than any other diet, similar to raw diets.) Finally, the most important factor regarding food to support good health, development, and longevity is not the brand or type chosen, but rather the amount fed. Growing puppies slowly and keeping adults lean and well-exercised will have a far greater impact than the brand or formulation (again, avoiding cheap foods or fads)."


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

We switched Chloe to PPP grain free at around six months. All I know is that her excessive itching stopped. I don't really believe that about the grain free and puppies.


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## bvgoldens (Dec 8, 2014)

*Grain-free dogfood*

Sometimes simply adding a good oil like Grizzly Salmon oil, will heal hot spots. It is often the poor quality of the dogfood that is causing allergies/hot spots. I thought it was the grains that were giving my dog skin issues, but I switched Ruby to Dynamite Premium Dogfood (which contains rice and oatmeal) as an experiment, and she has thrived on this dogfood for the past three years. Her coat immediately cleared up and is beautiful; no skin issues.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I respect the heck out of Rhonda Hovan and love her dogs. However I dont believe in the slow grow program, which in a way counters those who stuff pups full of 30/20 food in order to show them fastest. Neither extreme is ideal. I dont want my pup to be hungry, (and want to resource guard or fixate on food); I dont want my puppy to be fat and grow too fast. Feed a nice moderate food in a nice moderate amount.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Ooops just saw this came back as a thread from along time ago


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