# Nature vs Nurture Temperament



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

So I'd like to discuss temperament. I mentioned in another thread the notoriousness of chessies biting people and eating birds. Posters mentioned problems within out own breed. So the question begs, is it nature or nurture? I ask this because I have been able to spend a tremendous amount of time with 4 of my puppy Lucy's siblings through their first year of life. Both in arenas, field training, and general off leash walks. I am very familiar with my pup's parents and see them regularly also. So it has been very interesting to see how their personalities have all developed over time. The parents are fine dogs and have no temperament issues.

I have to say that I think the nurture has a tremendous amount to do with how a dog behaves. We all want to blame breeding, but gosh, there is one pup in this litter that is downright nasty to other dogs. I have to keep my puppy far away from this particular sister. I have been able to spend time with this puppy's family and other dogs they own. I believe it is a nurture situation in this case if you saw how the family raised their dogs.

Yes I think you can get a potentially bad temperament gene passed on. But I think the whole idea of blaming nature instead of nurture is not fair. How many of us have seen a fearful rescue become a steady partner? How many of us have seen a spoiled puppy with great breeding become a rotten attacking dog? 

How do we separate nature from nurture? If nature were completely true, we should never let a criminal have children.

So any thoughts out there? I'm a believer that both are factors. But are dogs so inbred that we can completely determine their temperament before they are born?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I firmly believe that both are components. If there was no "nature" involved, we wouldn't see temperament differences between Goldens and, for example, Scottish terriers. And they are about as different as night and day.
But I also believe you can work with what nature has bestowed to make the situation either better or worse.
No matter what anyone might claim, there is no way my Tiny could ever have had the stable, calm temperament that both Tito and Toby have/had. So there has to be a strong genetic component. 
I especially think the tendency toward aggression is genetic. Just like some people just plain have a short fuse, and others take everything in stride.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Many people do not understand what "Bad" temperament is. They often associate rude, spoiled rotten, brat like behavior with bad temperament, when the bad behavior is related to poor training or the lack of training and proper socialization. I have seen lots of dogs that were labled by their owners as having poor temperament that really just hadn't been taught proper manners. There wasn't anything wrong with their temperament. 

You can fix training and socialization issues, but you really can't fix bad temperament. You can develop plans and stratagies to deal with or work around poor temperament but the problem is always there and never goes away.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Poor socialization and training can certainly make even a good dog into a nervous mess or dominant wannabe who takes control because no one else has, just as good training wills make the same dog into a wonderful companion.

The are however dogs which are predisposed to true temperament issues, which in the hands of a skilled owner may be masked and managed, but are quickly revealed with owners who do not provide boundaries and training. In some of the cases we were mentioning in the other thread, the dogs predisposed to aggression display these traits even with training by highly skilled trainers. When you see a group of dogs all trained by the same pro, who are generally stable, and then see the one dog who cannot be aired with everyone else because it picks fights, and then find that its mother, or multiple siblings with various professional or owner trainers are all dealing with the same issues, then it certainly indicates strongly the genetic component, especially when you see it in subsequent generations as well.

As a HT secretary, when I make running orders, part of what I end up having to juggle is which boys cannot have boys on either side of them for the purposes of the honour as they have reputations for picking fights with other boys over the birds. This is not just a Golden issue. It goes for all the retrievers--people will breed the dog that performs well, and in FTs where the level of competition is so high, it is sometimes that very dominance that gives the dog the drive needed to be successful, yet that is also where that undesirable temperament can emerge, when it is not only bred, but linebred on when those dogs win. There are dogs who I really like, who come from the problematic lines. They themselves seem to be fine, and I know offspring who are fine, but I also know close relatives who are plain and simply nasty. A big issues with working lines in Goldens is that one of the dogs people like to see in a pedigree for water courage is also strongly featured in the pedigrees of the aggressive dogs. So for someone like me who is trying to strengthen that trait, without losing my lovely temperaments, it is very difficult to find what I want.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

the same goes for children!



Swampcollie said:


> Many people do not understand what "Bad" temperament is. They often associate rude, spoiled rotten, brat like behavior with bad temperament, when the bad behavior is related to poor training or the lack of training and proper socialization. I have seen lots of dogs that were labled by their owners as having poor temperament that really just hadn't been taught proper manners. There wasn't anything wrong with their temperament.
> 
> You can fix training and socialization issues, but you really can't fix bad temperament. You can develop plans and stratagies to deal with or work around poor temperament but the problem is always there and never goes away.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

sterregold said:


> It goes for all the retrievers--people will breed the dog that performs well, and in FTs where the level of competition is so high, it is sometimes that very dominance that gives the dog the drive needed to be successful, yet that is also where that undesirable temperament can emerge, when it is not only bred, but linebred on when those dogs win. There are dogs who I really like, who come from the problematic lines. They themselves seem to be fine, and I know offspring who are fine, but I also know close relatives who are plain and simply nasty. A big issues with working lines in Goldens is that one of the dogs people like to see in a pedigree for water courage is also strongly featured in the pedigrees of the aggressive dogs. So for someone like me who is trying to strengthen that trait, without losing my lovely temperaments, it is very difficult to find what I want.


That is well said and makes sense

If a dog doesnt have a good temperament, plenty of people know it. Usually, there are very public incidents over time. It is up to the owner though, to stand up and admit it, wins or no wins, or it will be perpetuated.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

sterregold said:


> As a HT secretary, when I make running orders, part of what I end up having to juggle is which boys cannot have boys on either side of them for the purposes of the honour as they have reputations for picking fights with other boys over the birds. This is not just a Golden issue.


This kind of made me cringe a little bit. 

If a dog is known so well because of behaviour issues, it should not be allowed to enter an event. All clubs have the power to decline an entry for cause. A reputation of undesirable aggressive behaviour is just cause. 
This would apply to any AKC event. Field, Obedience, Conformation etc. Event committees have a responsibility to make the call on bad actors. Yep, it really sucks when an offending dog belongs to a friend or training partner, but the responsible parties still need to act in order to protect the interests of the participants, the handlers, the hosting club, the AKC and the sport of purebred dogs. 

If clubs fail to live up to their responsibilities, the problem temperaments will persist.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> This kind of made me cringe a little bit.
> 
> If a dog is known so well because of behaviour issues, it should not be allowed to enter an event. All clubs have the power to decline an entry for cause. A reputation of undesirable aggressive behaviour is just cause.
> This would apply to any AKC event. Field, Obedience, Conformation etc. Event committees have a responsibility to make the call on bad actors. Yep, it really sucks when an offending dog belongs to a friend or training partner, but the responsible parties still need to act in order to protect the interests of the participants, the handlers, the hosting club, the AKC and the sport of purebred dogs.
> ...


I am in the CKC game as a secretary, not AKC. We have statements governing behaviour of dogs, and circumstances under which we can refuse entries as well.
The problem is that a couple of those dogs have not had incidents at tests, so no complaint has been filed against them. With one labrador there was finally an incident at a test, unfortunately, so that allowed us to tell the owner of that dog that the dog was unwelcome. But without an official complaint on file, if we barred a dog, and the owner chose to contest it with the CKC, the club would not be supported. We have precedent on that.

Unfortunately there is also a disincentive for clubs to bar iffy dogs as our game is much smaller up here (our MH tests tend to run 20-25 dogs.) If I tried to tell our club president I was refusing entries from five dogs (10 entries across two days) I would have an issue getting support on a "they could be trouble".


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> That is well said and makes sense
> 
> If a dog doesnt have a good temperament, plenty of people know it. Usually, there are very public incidents over time. It is up to the owner though, to stand up and admit it, wins or no wins, or it will be perpetuated.


That works for people like me who will not accept it and breed it forward. The problem is that some people just don't care, even when it is noticed and admitted. Winning trumps all for them.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

sterregold said:


> If I tried to tell our club president I was refusing entries from five dogs (10 entries across two days) I would have an issue getting support on a "they could be trouble".


Yes, the owners of the bad actors would complain (they always do), but have the clubs officers and board considered the alternative? If a bad actor committed a serious attack on another dog and that dogs owner learned that the club "KNEW" ahead of time that the offending dog had issues and they still allowed the dog to enter anyway? Worse yet, they manipulated the order of the draw to assist the bad actor in hiding the problem? The potential law suit waiting to happen is real scarry ground for a club and its Officers to be on. 

The club is better off declining the entries. The owners may go to the CKC to appeal the decision, and the CKC may order the club to accept the entries, but then the club has some cover to hide behind if a problem occurs. It was the CKC's call to accept the entries and their responsibility. While they may question it, I suspect the CKC would not overturn the club's decision to decline the entries as the local people have a more intimate understanding of the dogs in their areas. (They won't want to accept the liability either.) 

People sometimes need to be reminded to step back and see the bigger picture and this too is the reponsibility of a club. One of the main reasons these events exist is to demonstrate desired traits and abilities. The dogs that demonstrate those qualities in great quantity are awarded titles. Titled dogs are used in breeding programs in greater frequency than untitled dogs so they have greater influence on a breed than an untitled dog does. The various clubs (Field, Conformation, Obedience, etc.) have a responsiblity to indentify and turn out the bad actors. 

That is where the buck stops.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

And there's this (emphasis in original, from Entry Express):

AKC ENTRY AGREEMENT

I certify that I am the actual owner of the dog(s), or that I am the duly authorized agent of the actual owner whose name I have entered and I authorize Entry Express Inc to submit this entry to the hosting club on my behalf. In consideration of the acceptance of this entry, I (we) agree to abide by the rules and regulations of The American Kennel Club in effect at the time of this event, and any additional rules and regulations appearing in the premium list of this event and entry form and any decision made in accord with them. I (we) agree that the club holding this event has the right to refuse this entry for cause which the club shall deem sufficient. In consideration of the acceptance of this entry and of the holding of this event and of the opportunity to have the dog judged and to win prizes, ribbons, or trophies, I (we) agree to hold the AKC, the event-giving club, their members, directors, governors, officers, agents, superintendents or event secretary and the owner and/or lessor of the premises and any provider of services that are necessary to hold this event and any employees or volunteers of the aforementioned parties, and any AKC approved judge, judging at this event, harmless from any claim for loss or injury which may be alleged to have been caused directly or indirectly to any person or thing by the act of this dog while in or about the event premises or grounds or near any entrance thereto, and I (we) personally assume all responsibility and liability for any such claim; and I (we) further agree to hold the aforementioned parties harmless from any claim for loss, injury or damage to this dog. Additionally, I (we) hereby assume the sole responsibility for and agree to indemnify, defend and save the aforementioned parties harmless from any and all loss and expense (including legal fees) by reason of the liability imposed by law upon any of the aforementioned parties for damage because of bodily injuries, including death at any time resulting therefrom, sustained by any person or persons, including myself (ourselves), or on account of damage to property, arising out of or in consequence of my (our) participation in this event, however such, injuries, death or property damage may be caused, and whether or not the same may have been caused or may be alleged to have been caused by the negligence of the aforementioned parties or any of their employees, agents, or any other persons. I (WE) AGREE THAT ANY CAUSE OF ACTION, CONTROVERSY OR CLAIM ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THE ENTRY, EXHIBITION OR ATTENDANCE AT THE EVENT BETWEEN THE AKC AND THE EVENT-GIVING CLUB (UNLESS OTHERWISE STATED IN TIS PREMIUM LIST) AND MYSELF (OURSELVES) OR AS TO THE CONSTRUCTION, INTERPRETATION AND EFFECT OF THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE SETTLED BY ARBITRATION PURSUANT TO THE APPLICABLE RULES OF THE AMERICAN ARBITRATION ASSOCIATION. HOWEVER, PRIOR TO ARBITRATION ALL APPLICABLE AKC BYLAWS, RULES, REGULATIONS AND PROCEDURES MUST FIRST BE FOLLOWED AS SET FORTH IN THE AKC CHARTER AND BYLAWS, RULES, REGULATIONS, PUBLISHED POLICIES AND GUIDELINES.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> While they may question it, I suspect the CKC would not overturn the club's decision to decline the entries as the local people have a more intimate understanding of the dogs in their areas. (They won't want to accept the liability either.)


 ...I am afraid you haven't had to deal with the CKC....


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> People sometimes need to be reminded to step back and see the bigger picture and this too is the reponsibility of a club. One of the main reasons these events exist is to demonstrate desired traits and abilities. The dogs that demonstrate those qualities in great quantity are awarded titles. Titled dogs are used in breeding programs in greater frequency than untitled dogs so they have greater influence on a breed than an untitled dog does. *The various clubs (Field, Conformation, Obedience, etc.) have a responsiblity to indentify and turn out the bad actors. *
> 
> That is where the buck stops.


I completely understand Sterregolds point of view, but am so disappointed to see it. I am new to this game, so I don't know the rules inside and out the way you all do. As usual I am hopelessly naive... I have read through the regulations for the different National clubs and their respective tests and events a couple times and it was my understanding that if a dog can't be trusted to honor without attacking other dogs then he's as worthless a hunting dog as if he won't fetch to hand. He's not exhibiting proper behavior for a days' hunt.

While I understand that dogs are animals and can be unpredictable at the best of times, I do expect my dog to be reasonably safe at any club sponsored event. I deserve to be able to trust that reasonable efforts have been made to ensure my pup is safe whenever I'm training with my club and I expect the same when I visit another club's event for a test etc. If a dog is unable to sit and honor without being a threat to the other dog, then he shouldn't be there. And (again, I'm naive) I'm amazed that a handler wouldn't be embarrassed to run or show a dog that isn't under control whether it's field, obedience or agility.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito has been attacked twice at dog shows (both obedience!). Both times he, being Tito, dove under the nearest chair and the attacker came up with a mouthful of Golden buttfeathers. It was very apparent which dog had been the aggressor, as my dog was hiding, and the other dog had a mouthful of butt hair, meaning Tito had already walked past when the dog lashed out.
Once a chessie, once a standard poodle.
Both dogs belong to people I know well.
Did I report them? No. I know the people too well. Both were mortified, and my dog was okay. 
It can be a touchy situation.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Did I report them? No. I know the people too well. Both were mortified, and my dog was okay.
> It can be a touchy situation.


 
Yes, it can be touchy. Sometimes downright painful if the dogs owners are personal friends. But as a competitor/exhibitor you also have a responsibility to file a report on the incident. You don't always know the dogs history. It might be the first time such an incident occured, then again, it may have happened before. What if it happens again, and you learn the dog has a history? How will you feel about it then? You had the power to prevent the incident from happening, but you chose to remain silent and another dog later pays the price. 

Doing the right thing can be a hard bitter pill to swallow sometimes, it's so much easier to turn the other cheek and let it go. However good Sportsmanship and proper stewardship of the sport demands it. 

Letting little things slide, most often leads to bigger problems later down the road.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

It's interesting to me. I'm new but even with the limited amount of experience I have, I've seen many, many dogs that are reactive in obedience and agility. And gotten many warnings about not letting my dog get too close to certain dogs as they have been know to attack without warning.

My eyebrows always raise when I hear this.

I've been told the agility dogs are even more prone to this then the obedience. Cattle dogs aren't know for their sweet disposition (or so I've been informed), but are great at agility.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Nature versus nurture.

I'm a firm believer in nature. You start with something that is predisposed in a general direction. You can modify behavior, absolutely, but it is harder to change a dog that is super outgoing into a reserved dog and visa-versa. Again, you can modify it, but it's still an uphill struggle.

It's easier to work with what you start with and shape it toward the best it can be then to expect to completely change the nature of an animal (or person).


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

The one thing to keep in mind, is what is the definition of aggression? One person's opinion is not the same as the next. I totally agree if a dog has my dog's butt feathers in his mouth, we have a serious problem.

The only time I've been told to say away from a dog, it was a chessie. But I have seen nasty snarling coming from an American Shepard (small Aussies). Every time we walked past waiting for our turns to take the CGC, the nasty little thing snarled at one of my dogs. It did pass the CGC oddly enough.

My rescue dog Hunter is dog aggressive. I have to be very aware of him all the time. He erupts out of the blue or when another dog has a treat. We've done tons of obedience classes. He just doesn't seem to get it. He has never drawn blood. But he will go after another dog. I've learned to walk fast to keep him moving. He's wonderful with small children and people. I do believe he was born this way. We've worked for years to get him to change, and he's definitely better, but he will never be trustworthy. I have no idea of his breeding. He's definitely NOT a retriever.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> How do we separate nature from nurture? If nature were completely true, we should never let a criminal have children.
> 
> So any thoughts out there? *I'm a believer that both are factors.* But are dogs so inbred that we can completely determine their temperament before they are born?


I very much agree that both are factors. How much of one or another is individual to each dog. How do we separate them? It's far more dependent on nature; if a trait exists in the extreme by nature, that impedes our ability to to modify a trait through "nurture". Hard mouth, noise, impetuosity, poor memory, poor water acumen, and many more traits can exist in a dog's nature to such an extent that the end result of even the best training may be a sub par field dog.

Thankfully, in most cases this is not what happens. Most deficits are man made.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> the same goes for children!


You are so right.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Yes, it can be touchy. Sometimes downright painful if the dogs owners are personal friends. But as a competitor/exhibitor you also have a responsibility to file a report on the incident. You don't always know the dogs history. It might be the first time such an incident occured, then again, it may have happened before. What if it happens again, and you learn the dog has a history? How will you feel about it then? You had the power to prevent the incident from happening, but you chose to remain silent and another dog later pays the price.
> 
> Doing the right thing can be a hard bitter pill to swallow sometimes, it's so much easier to turn the other cheek and let it go. However good Sportsmanship and proper stewardship of the sport demands it.
> 
> Letting little things slide, most often leads to bigger problems later down the road.


Doing the right thing means different things to different people. Also, seeing the alleged aggressive behavior and evaluating it and then making a complaint, I believe, requires a lot of insight.

Ex. Was the dog really playing?
Which dog stared?
Is there a bitch in heat?
Was aggression shown after aggressive body language from the victim?

I really would be very careful as to how I handle it.

Sterregold, our club which was known for the mass honor grouped the dogs as you have suggested. Everyone leaves happy. Whoever needs to be spoken to gets spoken to. And it's great to handle problems in house.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

My friend had a Chessie. This dog was great, I have hunted over him and seen him hunt test. However, at a Continental Style Shoot where there is a pile of birds after several flights, nobody can take the birds from the dog, only the owner. 

Question: Is this dog aggressive or is the dog behaving the way Chessies were bred to behave? I kind of like a dog like that for my duckhunting. I need to launch my boat in an area that may be frequented by "undesirables". I show up at the ramp maybe 3:30 AM.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

gdgli said:


> My friend had a Chessie. This dog was great, I have hunted over him and seen him hunt test. However, at a Continental Style Shoot where there is a pile of birds after several flights, nobody can take the birds from the dog, only the owner.
> 
> Question: Is this dog aggressive or is the dog behaving the way Chessies were bred to behave? I kind of like a dog like that for my duckhunting. I need to launch my boat in an area that may be frequented by "undesirables". I show up at the ramp maybe 3:30 AM.


I see nothing in that description that indicates aggression. Possessiveness, yes...possibly a training issue, although that's purely a matter of opinion. But what is there about that situation that would indicated aggression? To me it just sounds like a Chesapeake. As a breed, they tend to be staunchly loyal to their owner.

** Disclaimer: I hate most breed generalizations.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

EvanG said:


> I see nothing in that description that indicates aggression. Possessiveness, yes...possibly a training issue, although that's purely a matter of opinion. But what is there about that situation that would indicated aggression? To me it just sounds like a Chesapeake. As a breed, they tend to be staunchly loyal to their owner.
> 
> ** Disclaimer: I hate most breed generalizations.
> 
> EvanG


I really do agree with you on all counts.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There are also though, an awful lot of really stellar temperaments too that truly honor the standard. I still believe most goldens are noteworthy for great temperaments.

However, it always adds a degree of irony to the romanticized magazine ads about this or that stud dog when he just tried to eat another competitor the last time you saw him at a big show, put a puncture wound onto his handler on the grooming table, or was excused by the judge for growling. Usually, the humans then snarked at each other over it, someone cried, whatever. . . Nothing seems to happen- no consequences. 

I do think nurture plays a part. No one loves to talk about it, but once in a while there will be a golden who is "grown out" mainly in a kennel with little interaction. In my grampa's day, they were called Kennel Dumb, and sometimes never even learned a name. I've seen three or four who have been sent for help after being returned to an original breeder. I think a puppy who is badly attacked by an adult dog or handled brutally by a human can be affected, and I think a genetically poor temperament can be slightly/somewhat modified by very thoughtful socialization and training.


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## caroline162 (Jun 11, 2013)

I think it is definitely both too... 

We rescued a German Shorthair Pointer off the street when she was about two years old, and she was a MESS - she had clearly been so abused and neglected, if any dog had a right to have a bad temperament it was her. She fell down and peed on herself if you picked up a broom, ran and hid at any sound that sounded like a gun, was very ill and malnourished, etc. We brought her back to health, and with much much work, also got her over her fears. She ended up being the best dog in the world - she was so sweet and trusting and loyal and did not have an aggressive bone in her body and was just generally all around awesome. I once caught my toddler on all fours eating out of her dog food bowl with her (yikes! but LOL!) and she did not care at all.

Then there was an eight week old mystery mutt (as he got older - coloring/coat of a border collie, head shape of a pit bull which so many mutts here have in them, and weird fluffy tail that curled tightly upward) who we adopted from the shelter. We did everything right with that baby from the start - he was in puppy kindergarten and obedience class, and we took him absolutely everywhere to socialize him from the very beginning. He was surrounded constantly by people who loved on him - on walks, going to restaurants with us, meeting people of all sizes/ages/colors/etc. and other dogs. He was loved and spoiled, but also well trained. He was never mistreated or hungry a day in his life. Well, he ended up food aggressive - he would growl if someone came near him while he ate, and ended up biting my daughter when she walked past him while he tried to steal butter off the counter.

I think Suzie just had a sweet peaceful nature, despite everything, and Porter was destined to have some food aggression issues. He was only 8 months old when we re-homed him (to an experienced dog owner without kids) so I hope they were able to work with him on it, but it was clearly part of his temperament and not a result of how he was raised.


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