# We found our breeder



## DaisyGolden (Jan 4, 2008)

It's wonderful that you have a puppy on the way. I would have a hard time waiting till Sunday too. I would love to see pics when you have them. It sounds like you have really thought about the best time to bring a puppy into your home which is great and i wish more people would do. I bet your daughters are really excited.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Lucky you !!!!!


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Congratulations!! Chantilly Goldens has beautiful dogs......

Who are the parents of your puppy?

Cant wait to see pics........


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## brandyj (Dec 27, 2010)

IF all goes well on Sunday after meeting Breeder, Pups and Parents, we're hoping to have our puppy soon. They are ready Jan 10. 

Funny story about the parents. Ashleigh had emailed me and mentioned that Taylor was the "Dam". I, not knowing all the puppy lingo didn't know wether the dam was Mom or Dad, however after looking at the site assumed that Taylor was Dad. Ashleigh let me know that Taylor has what they call a big doggy head haha. She's gorgeous! I just thought she looked a bit BIG for a Momma  Anyways, Whyatt is the Daddy and they made some beautiful pups! I'm very anxious to go out on Sunday!

I also wish people didn't make the same mistake we did with Kiera (our Husky). It makes me angry knowing we did it, but live and learn. No regrets, we were lucky enough to find her a lovely home!

I can tell you one thing though, after a few months of looking on kijiji I am disgusted with a LARGE amount of sellers... Just want to make a buck. It's terrible.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Congrats! Ash is a member of our forum here and there are a couple of other members with Chantilly pups too - including LJilly28. They are knock-outs!


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

LJilly28ès Copely is beautiful. You should check him out.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

Congratulations! Ash has some BEAUTIFUL dogs!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Congrats! I see lots of pictures of Ljilly28's Copley on Facebook and he is gorgeous!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

We briefly considered getting a dog from Chantilly. They're beautiful!


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

FinnTastic said:


> LJilly28ès Copely is beautiful. You should check him out.


Whyatt is Copley's brother:

Pedigree: Chantilly's Dis Is Y I'm Hott

Looks like he just turned one in November 2010.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think there must be a mistake here. Whyatt is just over a year old (DOB 11/9/2009), meaning if these pups are 8 weeks on Jan 10, he was bred well under a year old (about 10 months). So either the OP is wrong about who the parents are or this breeding was an accident, right?

Taylor was born 6/21/2008, so she would have been over 2 at the time of the breeding, but I can only find prelim information for her, not 24 month clearances. I may not be looking it up correctly with the Canadian registration number, so perhaps they're there and I can't find them.

Am I missing something here? I apologize in advance if I've made an incorrect assumption or some kind of error.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

I have to agree with Tippy. This seems a little odd to me. It also seems like this was a reeeeaaaallllly tight line breeding as Taylor and Whyatt are half siblings if they are indeed the parents? Whyatt is a gorgeous boy as are all of the puppies I have seen from his litter, but I would really want to look into this more.

Do they all have clearances? Are they all of proper age? What do you plan to do with your puppy? And if, by chance, it was an accidental breeding I certainly hope you are not paying the same price that you would pay for a show/performance pup. 

Huge apologies in advance if I don't have all the information and am making an incorrect assumption.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

I think the OP stated Taylor as the dam & Whyatt as the sire - they will have to confirm this. Looking at Chantilly's website, they list an upcoming winter litter but no further details. Also the pedigree link on Whyatt's page is not linked properly - it links to Bleeker's pedigree on K9data.com. 

Kali is the dam of both Taylor and Whyatt. Perhaps this was not a planned litter (if in fact the sire & dam are Whyatt & Taylor) as Whyatt is only 1 year old in Nov. 2010. Not seeing any clearances on him and nothing on OFA for Taylor either but perhaps the heart & eyes weren't sent on to OFA? OVC elbows are listed and OFA hip prelims on K9data.com but again, nothing reflected on the OFA website. OFA prelims would be listed on dogs over 12 months (if the films were done after 12 months of age) IF the owner checks the 'release any abnormal findings' when the form is filled out prior to the xrays being done.


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## peeps (Sep 12, 2007)

I get to spend lots of time with Chantilly Goldens - you will love your puppy!!! The temperaments are great and you will have wonderful breeder support from Ashleigh!! Have fun with your puppy!!!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi everyone, as a breeder and member of this forum I feel I should offer a response. 

First off, yes, this was an unplanned breeding. This would have been a planned litter in 6 months to a year pending Whyatt’s final clearances. Those of you who know me know that I would never recommend breeding without final clearances and of course would not do this intentionally. The temperaments on these two dogs are flawless… regardless of the situation these babies will beautiful family companions. 

If anyone has any further questions please don’t hesitate to contact me at the following address [email protected]


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Since I'm still a newbie at this breeding stuff and since it was touched on, at what point in line-breeding, if any, do you get health issues due to incest?

Feel free to let me know if I should rather start a new thread or look up an old one.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Ash said:


> Hi everyone, as a breeder and member of this forum I feel I should offer a response.
> 
> First off, yes, this was an unplanned breeding. This would have been a planned litter in 6 months to a year pending Whyatt’s final clearances. Those of you who know me know that I would never recommend breeding without final clearances and of course would not do this intentionally. The temperaments on these two dogs are flawless… regardless of the situation these babies will beautiful family companions.
> 
> If anyone has any further questions please don’t hesitate to contact me at the following address [email protected]



Glad you saw this and responded quickly before the thread got out of hand.

Just goes to show that an accidental breeding can happen to even the most responsible and respected breeders. 

I'm sure these pups will be gorgeous as are all your puppies.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ash said:


> Hi everyone, as a breeder and member of this forum I feel I should offer a response.
> 
> First off, yes, this was an unplanned breeding. This would have been a planned litter in 6 months to a year pending Whyatt’s final clearances. Those of you who know me know that I would never recommend breeding without final clearances and of course would not do this intentionally. The temperaments on these two dogs are flawless… regardless of the situation these babies will beautiful family companions.


Hey Ash,

Thanks for clarifying.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

jackie_hubert said:


> Since I'm still a newbie at this breeding stuff and since it was touched on, at what point in line-breeding, if any, do you get health issues due to incest?
> 
> Feel free to let me know if I should rather start a new thread or look up an old one.



That will vary from one breeder to another as to what they are comfortable with and debated all the time. The issue is when you breed "related" dogs you are not only doubling up on the "good" genes but also the "bad" genes. And the closer the relation the more likely this is to occur. However health issues pop up also in breeding where there is little relation between the parents (remember ALL Goldens are related when you go back far enough). 
While I do not "know" Ash, Chantilly Goldens, closely, I have come to know her here on GRF and other forums/lists. From that knowledge I would say that although she may not have intended this particular breeding, she will stand behind them 110% as she does with any of her litters.


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## mkkuch (Dec 13, 2010)

Congrats on your upcomming addition! I can feel your excitement. I hope you post lots of pictures of your pup. Waiting is the worst isn't it?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just as an FYI, the term "incest" is not applicable when discussing the breeding of animals. It is a term used when discussing human relationships/taboos. Canines are incapable of establishing such taboos.

*1. *Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.
*2. *The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.

Sorry for being "picky", but when people use this word regarding breedings, it suggests that it is bad, which it is not always.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

jackie_hubert said:


> Since I'm still a newbie at this breeding stuff and since it was touched on, at what point in line-breeding, if any, do you get health issues due to incest?
> 
> Feel free to let me know if I should rather start a new thread or look up an old one.


I think it would be smart to start a new thread to discuss it. In the context of an accidental breeding, comments about the downsides of linebreeding might seem like attacks on Ash when they're not meant to be. In a fresh thread, it can be just about the concepts and evidence and not about anybody in particular.

I'm sure there are plenty of old threads on the subject, but a new one might be a nice opportunity to learn.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I think it would be smart to start a new thread to discuss it. In the context of an accidental breeding, comments about the downsides of linebreeding might seem like attacks on Ash when they're not meant to be. In a fresh thread, it can be just about the concepts and evidence and not about anybody in particular.
> 
> I'm sure there are plenty of old threads on the subject, but a new one might be a nice opportunity to learn.


I have the following questions:

1) In general, do breeders sell pups from accidental breedings? 

2) I would be really concerned about potential health issues. As a breeder, would you purchase a pup from an accidental breeding as has been described in this case? 

3) If you would purchase a pup from an accidental breeding as described here, what, if anything, would you ask of the breeder to provide prior to taking the pup home?

4) I would be interested in your thoughts about test breedings. That is, when are they done? Under what circumstances?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Marty's Mom said:


> I have the following questions:
> 
> 1) In general, do breeders sell pups from accidental breedings?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't really be able to answer these questions, because I don't breed. I will say that I would not pay for a dog from uncleared or underage parents, even in an accidental breeding from a breeder I really trusted and dogs I really admired. I might adopt the dog if the breeder wanted to place him with me, but given the risks involved, I wouldn't purchase the dog the way I would under normal circumstances.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Marty's Mom said:


> I have the following questions:
> 
> 1) In general, do breeders sell pups from accidental breedings?
> 
> ...


1. Knock on wood, I have never had an accidental breeding. It does happen, even to the best breeders. I decided long ago that if I ever were to have one, any resulting puppies would be sold on limited registration, at a very nominal fee - enough to help cover shots, etc, and the rest donated to the GRF (Golden Retriever Foundation) Zeke Fund. SOLD, because it is a fact that people are far more likely to care for something that they have paid for as opposed to what they have gotten for free. That said, my criteria for screening puppy buyers would be no different than for a planned litter.

2. As a breeder, I might buy a puppy from an accidental litter, IF there were a solid history of health clearances behind both parents. As for a 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister breeding, it would depend on the pedigree for me. 

3. I would not "require" anything of the breeder before taking such a pup home, other than the same support that I would expect if from a planned breeding, knowing that I am purchasing the pup at my own risk - ie I would not demand a warranty. 

4. Test breedings are done for a myriad of reasons, I've never done an actual one, and won't speak to it because I have not. I make mine "on paper".


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

I appreciate that Ash came here to clear things up. I wanted to throw in that I should have mentioned last night that I am sure that she made the puppy buyer aware of the circumstances as any responsible breeder would. 

We do sometimes rain on people's parades when they are excited about a new puppy and I hope the new Chantilly family will stick around and share their new puppy and their excitement with the forum. It is an exciting time! 

I do have a question for breeders who have had or know of accidental breedings. How do you know who the sire is if you have more than one intact male? In your case, Ash, did you have to do a DNA test on the puppies or was it a case of them being caught in the act? As someone who knows zero about breeding, I'm always curious how breeders go about determining that.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Could one of the mods please move my comment to a new thread, and any threads pertaining to that one, lest it look like I was attacking Ash, which I of course was not. 

Pointgold - thanks, as always for clarifying. Perhaps I used _incest_ inappropriately because I just submitted a paper on human incest for publication and that term is swirling around my head...


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

jackie_hubert said:


> Could one of the mods please move my comment to a new thread, and any threads pertaining to that one, lest it look like I was attacking Ash, which I of course was not.
> 
> Pointgold - thanks, as always for clarifying. Perhaps I used _incest_ inappropriately because I just submitted a paper on human incest for publication and that term is swirling around my head...


I don't think you should worry - it was clearly unintentional and I believe most people knew what you were trying to say.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Bogey's Mom said:


> I do have a question for breeders who have had or know of accidental breedings. How do you know who the sire is if you have more than one intact male? In your case, Ash, did you have to do a DNA test on the puppies or was it a case of them being caught in the act? As someone who knows zero about breeding, I'm always curious how breeders go about determining that.


I'm curious about the same thing - and are they housed separately? I mean, I would think if they are housed separately and watched . . . this is something I just find hard to believe could happen unless they were unsupervised - and that would concern me - I guess.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

jackie_hubert said:


> Could one of the mods please move my comment to a new thread, and any threads pertaining to that one, lest it look like I was attacking Ash, which I of course was not.
> 
> Pointgold - thanks, as always for clarifying. Perhaps I used _incest_ inappropriately because I just submitted a paper on human incest for publication and that term is swirling around my head...


 
Jackie, I didn't feel that you were attacking Ash, at all. I don't think anyone was. I made the clarification because so many people _do _use the word "incest" when they are talking about breeding, and it is not applicable. It does have a very negative connotation, and it is difficult for the general pet owning public to think about line breedings as other than "incest". Conversely, I don't know if I could work on a paper about human incest, it is such a taboo in most of our society - I think I'd be uncomfortable just reading about it...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

jackie_hubert said:


> Could one of the mods please move my comment to a new thread, and any threads pertaining to that one, lest it look like I was attacking Ash, which I of course was not.
> 
> Pointgold - thanks, as always for clarifying. Perhaps I used _incest_ inappropriately because I just submitted a paper on human incest for publication and that term is swirling around my head...



Actually someone has started a thread on this for you.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...g-inbreeding-carried-over-another-thread.html


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Oh would you look at that! I didn't even see that. Thanks!


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

I had an accidental breeding a few years ago from a bitch without a hip clearance. My dogs are in the house with us - my Husband and I hadn't been married for long and he didn't realize how determined some boys can be.  It happens. I sold the puppies with full disclosure, limited registration, and at a much lower price. 

I also co-own a bitch who's parents were 1/2 siblings... would I do it, probably not. But I won't hold it against any breeder. 

I'm sure your puppy will be wonderful and provide you and your family much joy.  Don't forget to share photos!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Bogey's Mom said:


> I appreciate that Ash came here to clear things up. I wanted to throw in that I should have mentioned last night that I am sure that she made the puppy buyer aware of the circumstances as any responsible breeder would.
> 
> We do sometimes rain on people's parades when they are excited about a new puppy and I hope the new Chantilly family will stick around and share their new puppy and their excitement with the forum. It is an exciting time!
> 
> I do have a question for breeders who have had or know of accidental breedings. How do you know who the sire is if you have more than one intact male? In your case, Ash, did you have to do a DNA test on the puppies or was it a case of them being caught in the act? As someone who knows zero about breeding, I'm always curious how breeders go about determining that.


If there is ANY question as to which male sired a litter, the AKC will require DNA cheek swabs be done. No breeder that I know or respect wouldn't test anyway (without being requred to), although I've read several threads right here where the sire was either obviously NOT who the "breeder" thought, or, even though the "breeder" could not be sure, registered puppies as being sired by one male.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

Thanks Kara and Laura for your input. All very interesting. I wasn't aware you could do the cheek swabs - tricky! I just assumed it was blood work. I knew of people doing DNA tests for litters sired by multiple sires but wasn't sure how these situations worked. 

Wow - a lot sure goes into breeding!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I know several friends who have had accidental breedings. One case, both dog and bitch were under a year, bitch's first season and she was only a few days in. "Dad" was only 7 or 8 months old so their owner assumed nothing would happen and had them loose in the yard together. OOPSIE POOPSIE! 5 puppies. She sold them as she normally would but got prelims on mom & dad before puppies were born. Both parents got all their health clearances when they were older, and she ended up repeating that breeding again.
Another friend had NO IDEA her 15 month old bitch had been bred until she was just 2-3 weeks out and started looking REAL big....thankfully she only had one intact male so there was no question who dad was. 
Still another had all the girls out in the yard with her and the boys in the house -- she had her back turned for two minutes and the GIRL in season got the sliding glass door open and it only took THAT long to happen! The owner found the dogs so it was no doubt who did the dirty deed. Luckily both dogs were of age and had all clearances so while unplanned, no worry as far as that went.
So in other words -- it happens. Preventable? Yes --but it happens.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

You have to remember too, that most of the breeders have their dogs as housepets first, and show/breeding dogs second. So they live in the house with the family and aren't separated into individual kennels and super controlled. And like any house, things happen, it's a part of life. I try to keep Bender from eating a ton of 'people food' as it upsets her stomach (as in whole sandwiches topped off with some cookies and apples thanks to the dayhome kids being fussy and me not clearing the table instantly), but it happens. Would I rather her live in a crate so she never has the option? Not on your life! 

It's almost a 'no win' - people will be critical of the breeder who has all their dogs in individual runs and separated 24/7 but expect the breeder who has their dogs in the house to have that sort of control and options, no jobs or responsibilities short of watching their dogs every second of the day. Some girls are very discreet and some boys won't care until THE moment - I had one of those boys and he honestly avoided his 'girl' for a week, to the point of going in the other direction. Then the next day, put them together and they had an instant tie.


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## brandyj (Dec 27, 2010)

I wasn't informed of this by Ash, and I guess I need to look more into the whole idea behind it... Kudos to the man/woman who eyed it out!

This is all very new to me 

I appreciate everyones input. And I guess on top of health reasons etc, what would be a price to pay for such pup?

This sure threw a curve in our road 

I appreciate it again everyone.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

brandyj said:


> I wasn't informed of this by Ash, and I guess I need to look more into the whole idea behind it... Kudos to the man/woman who eyed it out!
> 
> This is all very new to me
> 
> ...


Since Ash was probably going to do this breeding some time down the road anyway, I'm sure she can explain the rationale of the linebreeding to your satisfaction. I would encourage you to talk to her directly about it, and feel free to bounce any questions you have off this or another thread.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't breed, but isn't there also such thing as a "silent heat?"


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## brandyj (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you so much Tippy. I sent an email off to Ash already. I have had such great communication with her, and have no doubts, I obviously just reading all of this kinda stopped and went HMM. 

As I said, this is a HUGE hey, did you know this was even possible? And I'm happy it was brought to my attention and I'm happy I can read/learn about it! 

I am still very excited to meet with Ash this Sunday, and I will keep everyone posted!

Thanks again. I look forward to learning//hearing more!


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I would be so worried for the mother of the pups and for the pups . . . today, I am glad I am not a breeder. This has been very interesting.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Marty's Mom said:


> I would be so worried for the mother of the pups and for the pups . . ..


there should be no worry for mom or pups..the dam is of age, now comfort level with how close the linebreeding is ....thats a personal choice ....


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## Everlore (Mar 27, 2008)

For Brandyj and anyone else looking to purchase a golden puppy, I highly recommend that you got the the GRCA website and read Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens
Finding a Golden Retriever. Prepare yourself in what to look for and what questions to ask!

Everlore


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

*First of all, I am not being critical of the breeder and accidental breedings do happen. Those puppies need a home as well.* To the OP, brandyj: you do need to understand the terms of inbreeding, line breeding and outcrossing as well as discuss the health, temperament & longevity of the dogs that are being doubled up on in this particular pedigree. Find out the age, cause of death as well as any other pertinent information that you can discuss with Ash on each of the dogs. This would be a normal conversation in your search for any puppy out of any litter you are considering. 

As far as the sire being underaged and with the appearance of no clearances (again, perhaps some have been done buy not submitted to OVC, OFA & CERF), if Ash knows that Whyatt sired this litter, she should have his eyes CERF'd, heart checked by a cardiologist and at least prelims done on his hips & elbows before the litter goes home, if at all possible. She can provide copies and actual certification numbers issued by OVC, OFA and CERF.

Ash has very beautiful dogs and is a reputable breeder. Accidents do happen and as a responsible breeder, being upfront about the situation as well as dealing with it in a professional manner speaks volumes. I would assume if she was considering this breeding in the near future when Whyatt was over 18 months and had his final OVC hip & elbow clearances (remember she is in Canada whereas in the US, final hip & elbows are not issued an OFA number until after 24 months) and would be keeping a bitch/dog from this breeding to grow it out, get clearances and assess the overall health, structure and temperament of this particular breeding for her own breeding program. 

This article may be informational for you to understand inbreeding, line breeding and out crossing:


Line Breeding vs. Inbreeding
Typical Inbreeding percentages are as follows:

Father/daughter - mother/son - brother/sister -> 25% 
Half-brother/half-sister -> 12.5% 
Uncle/niece - aunt/nephew -> 12.5% 
Cousin -> 6.25%

IN BREEDING
1. parent to offspring (mother-son, father daughter)
2. full siblings (brother-sister, sister-brother)

TIGHT LINE BREEDING
1. half-siblings (half-brother to half-sister) 
2. cousins
3. aunt to nephew, uncle to niece

LINE BREEDING
1. grandparent to grandchild (grandfather-granddaughter, grandmother-grandson). 
2. a common ancestor on both sides of the pedigree within 3rd-4th generation.
(Sounds to me like grandparent or great grandparent to grandchild/great grandchild).


Understanding Line Breeding

There seems to be a vast misunderstanding about line breeding, what it is, why it is done and how it is done. Often one hears laymen and even some who should know better referring to it in derogatory terms and making the assumption that linebreeding is responsible for canine health and temperament problems. So in this article I hope to try to explain a little what responsible and knowledgeable breeders try to do in their breeding programs. 

First let me be clear anything said in this article refers to reputable breeders who breed to develop dogs who are the best examples of breed type (what a certain breed should look like according to the breed's standard or blueprint) and are of sound mind and body. It does not refer to puppy mill or back yard breeders as the sole purpose of those sorts of breeders are to supply the most puppies as cheaply as possible for the most profit. Considerations such as breed type, health and temperament are of no interest to these people and any linebreeding or inbreeding done by them is merely happenstance and economically advantageous. 

In the simplest terms there are three methods used when breeding purebred dogs: outcrossing, inbreeding and linebreeding. 

Outcrossing is the breeding of dogs with no common ancestors, usually within a five generation pedigree. Continual outcrossing is a method that is commonly used by breeders who have no real purpose in breeding dogs or by novice breeders. Occasionally it is employed by experienced breeders to bring in some needed attribute to their line. Though one hears about such things as hybrid vigour when outcrossing, the continual use of this method can be as dangerous as continual inbreeding as you are always bringing new genetic equations to the mix. 

Inbreeding is the breeding of close relatives not separated by more than one generation, i.e, brother to sister, father to daughter. This method is used to concentrate good qualities in the line but may also concentrate bad qualities. Only the most experienced breeders should be willing to attempt this method and be willing to make possible hard decisions with respect to the resulting puppies. Continual inbreeding should not be done. 

Linebreeding is a method that breeders will use to improve upon and try to eliminate structural and health problems from their dogs. It is the breeding together of dogs that have a well bred superior common ancestor who has attributes that the breeder is attempting to reproduce and improve upon in their own dogs. Things such as health, longevity of life, structure, movement and temperament of a dog that one is planning to linebreed on must be taken into account. Linebreeding is an attempt to concentrate the genetic contribution of an outstanding ancestor in the resulting offspring. As well once started one must continue the linebreeding process or all will be for naught. 

For a breeder who is contemplating linebreeding they must first study some basic genetics and learn how dominant and recessive genes affect the outcome of any breeding attempted. They must learn which attributes are dominant and which are recessive. They must also be aware of the genetic health issues for their breed and the mode of inheritance of those diseases. One must then study the dog that one hopes to linebreed on. Unfortunately in dogs it is not possible to know everything genetic about a certain dog as sometimes recessive genes may lie in wait but one can usually have a reasonable understanding of a dog's makeup through the study of pedigrees, both of the ancestors of that dog and his or her's offspring.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

brandyj said:


> I wasn't informed of this by Ash, and I guess I need to look more into the whole idea behind it... Kudos to the man/woman who eyed it out!
> 
> This is all very new to me
> 
> ...


Perhaps the circumstances were disclosed, but it appears that Brandy did not know. I would probably have a bigger problem with this than most people - I'm a stickler for details and at this point, would be concerned if I was sure nothing was said. 

A couple of other things that bother me here - the website does show data for Bleeker Street under Whyatt’s name. Is that a lack of attention to details? That would be huge for me. And the fact that it is still there is troublesome. 

Finally, in light of what happened, if I were considering a pup from litter where there was an accidental breeding, I would like to see the kennels or whatever the set-up is . . . 

I don't know the breeder but the pictures on the website show exceptionally beautiful dogs . . . still, in the situation that has been described, no matter how you look at it, there seems to be a lack of attention to the details. I say, "seems" - that is 1) in the discussion with someone inquiring about the pups, 2) in the website data about the Sire, and 3) in the accidental breeding. 

I'm a business person - the details are everything - that is all I can say. Still, I love Goldens and have such respect for breeders - I can see how difficult it is and would not want to be a breeder with an accidental breeding. I do empathize in this situation . . . . .


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

First of all, I do not know "Ash" but I thought her reply to the forum members' concerns was graceful and to the point....

Seven years ago, my sister got an English Cocker from a well known New England breeder. This cocker was an "oops" breeding. The sire was very under age and I never ever saw his name on OFA.... however, my sister's pup turned out to be a very healthy, sound dog(it was not line breeding). Two years ago, she purchased another E Cocker from a friend of the original breeder. This girl had 2 Ch parents and parents with all clearances. Her structure is not nearly as sound as the "oops" cocker. The pups in the "oops" litter were all sold at the typical price that the breeder sells her dogs for.

I find the subject of "tight" line breeding and in breeding in general much more fascinating. I get the point of "line" breeding, but don't you really have to know the pedigrees inside and out? And even then won't some nasty recessives crop up? Years ago, I had a client come in with her new English Springer pup. She proudly showed me the pedigree. I said,"It's a father/daughter breeding." The new owner was totally clueless and the breeder obviously didn't point it out. The dog went on to have horrible elbow dysplasia to match her temperament(not unusual in certain lines of Springers). The highest COI I have done to the 12th generation is 9%, the lowest 6%. Definitely the 9% litter was much more uniform than the 6% litter(they were born around the same time, the first and last time I will ever do that). Because they were literally side by side in my dining room, you could see a "type" in the 9% litter. Really wouldn't most of our dogs have an 80-90% COI to Misty Morn's Sunset or Bainin of Caernac or whomever if you went way out on the generations? What about the practice of some "big" show breeders who think nothing of COI's of 30% or greater?? To get type are we sacrificing something else?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> A couple of other things that bother me here - the website does show data for Bleeker Street under Whyatt’s name. Is that a lack of attention to details? That would be huge for me. And the fact that it is still there is troublesome.


Just to keep everything accurate on this thread, I just looked at Chantilly's website and the k9data link has been corrected and leads to Whyatt's k9data page. JMHO, but I wouldn't assume that the error was intentional or shows a lack of attention to detail, as it may just have been a simple copy and paste mistake when updating her site months ago.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Just to keep everything accurate on this thread, I just looked at Chantilly's website and the k9data link has been corrected and leads to Whyatt's k9data page. JMHO, but I wouldn't assume that the error was intentional or shows a lack of attention to detail, as it may just have been a simple copy and paste mistake when updating her site months ago.


In business - when you update any information that is pertinent to your business - you check it. If you have a website, you make sure the links work. Not doing that is not paying attention to the small details. In my view, thats a problem. It makes me wonder what else was overlooked. And when small things start appearing like that - it makes you drill down deeper . . . I would, if I were potential buyer. That is my point.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sometimes breeders are busy taking care of their dogs, going to dog shows, training, etc, and updates to a website or K9 Data are not a priority. For most of us, this is a labor of love, not a "business".

Just one more reason why I took down my website years ago, and have balked at doing a new one. I'd much prefer to speak with potential puppy buyers in person, and heaven forbid if an update isn't made in a timely manner.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Sometimes breeders are busy taking care of their dogs, going to dog shows, training, etc, and updates to a website or K9 Data are not a priority. For most of us, this is a labor of love, not a "business".
> 
> Just one more reason why I took down my website years ago, and have balked at doing a new one. I'd much prefer to speak with potential puppy buyers in person, and heaven forbid if an update isn't made in a timely manner.


Of course breeders are busy - but that wouldn't fly in the real world. In the end, potential puppy owners rely on the breeder's representations to make an important decision. The typical owner is not an expert in canine genetics - the information made available to them should be up to date, accurate, and written in a way that the average person can understand it. 

I agree it is a labor of love - absolutely - but that doesn't mean a potential puppy owner should expect less of their breeder. 

Someone here posted a comment about charging a fee so the potential puppy owner would see the value in the services provided by the breeder. I agree with that. I would also say that because I work with a breeder, I expect them to be professional - I hold them to very high standards - otherwise, I could just go any place and pick up a pup.


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## Retrieverlover (Feb 8, 2010)

I rather see a breeder in person than basing a puppy buy on how their website looks. A clean kennel, healthy and happy dogs and talking face to face is so much more important.

And if a breeder updates their website weekly or daily, spends hours on facebook or whatever online community it makes me wonder how much time they really devote to the dogs


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Marty's Mom said:


> Of course breeders are busy - but that wouldn't fly in the real world. In the end, potential puppy owners rely on the breeder's representations to make an important decision. The typical owner is not an expert in canine genetics - the information made available to them should be up to date, accurate, and written in a way that the average person can understand it.
> 
> I agree it is a labor of love - absolutely - but that doesn't mean a potential puppy owner should expect less of their breeder.
> 
> Someone here posted a comment about charging a fee so the potential puppy owner would see the value in the services provided by the breeder. I agree with that. I would also say that because I work with a breeder, I expect them to be professional - I hold them to very high standards - otherwise, I could just go any place and pick up a pup.


Well, in this "real world", you've just underlined for me why I'll continue to not have a website so that business people won't judge me based on that, but rather on my dogs, the care that I provide them, my knowledge when I speak to them about the dogs, the clearances I provide them, and my successes with what I have done and how I do it. I believe that my standards are as high, or higher, than many, and it is not a website that is the reason/cause. And I'm certainly not going to charge a fee for people to see that.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Couple points I feel I want to make. Ash does not need me or anyone else to come to her defense she can do that herself. 
1 - The breeder, Ash, being discussed has been an active GRF member for over 3 years. Now that in no ways her a bye, but seeing she has been here for that length of time and as active as she has been, over 3,000 posts, many here have gotten to "know" her as well as one can from an internet forum.
2 - Ash came into this thread on day two and stated it was an accidental breeding and if anyone had any other questions to email her and gave her email address.
3 - It is he holiday season and many folks are busy and away visiting family and friends and not spending as much time in front of their computer screens.
4 - Many breeders are not computer experts. Many employ a service or friend to maintain their websites. And no matter how much an expert one is, mistakes happen. For all anyone knows the last time the website was updated before this thread started the update had nothing to do with this particular dog but somehow it got changed. When proofed after the changes there would be no reason to check this dog or any other page/link that was not part of the update. I know this has occurred with a few of my clubs websites over the years.
5 - So Ash knew about this error on Wednesday and by Friday it was corrected. Many businesses wish they could be that responsive. 
6 - Many breeders are doing this as a hobby, not as a business. It is a side endeavor, as stated before a labor of love.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Well, in this "real world", you've just underlined for me why I'll continue to not have a website so that business people won't judge me based on that, but rather on my dogs, the care that I provide them, my knowledge when I speak to them about the dogs, the clearances I provide them, and my successes with what I have done and how I do it. I believe that my standards are as high, or higher, than many, and it is not a website that is the reason/cause. And I'm certainly not going to charge a fee for people to see that.


I see you are focused on the website and its not about that for me - either. 

And its not about the breeder in this situation - - - my point of view is based on what has been described - - - and if I see it that way, there may be other potential puppy owners who do as well. I hope breeders gain some insight and perspective here - that is all. 

I consider a breeder an extended part of our family - - - it is very personal. Breeders screen potential owners. Why wouldn't a potential owner "screen" their breeder? It is so much more than the website, of course. 

My point is, because there were three instances where there seemed to be a lack of attention to the details (as it was described), I would be concerned. I would probe further. And being too busy is never a good excuse - what does that say to someone who doesn't know the breeder? 

I would talk to the breeder. I would look the breeder in the eye. If there were red flags, I would really want to understand. I would probe. It goes both ways - I would expect the breeder to exercise the same care in evaluating me as a potential owner. 

Yes, I am a business person - and breeders are, too. More important, I am a wife, mother, and good friend. My three pups - who are laying at my feet as I write this - are a true testament to my beliefs and values.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Couple points I feel I want to make. Ash does not need me or anyone else to come to her defense she can do that herself.
> 1 - The breeder, Ash, being discussed has been an active GRF member for over 3 years. Now that in no ways her a bye, but seeing she has been here for that length of time and as active as she has been, over 3,000 posts, many here have gotten to "know" her as well as one can from an internet forum.
> 
> _I've been here just as long and don't "know" her - but for me this isn't about her, really. Its about any breeder and how I would look at it if I were in the situation that Brandy described._
> ...


_You can love what you do - you should, that is, and be professional. I hope my response to PointGold helps._


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Marty's Mom said:


> I see you are focused on the website and its not about that for me - either.
> 
> And its not about the breeder in this situation - - - my point of view is based on what has been described - - - and if I see it that way, there may be other potential puppy owners who do as well. I hope breeders gain some insight and perspective here - that is all.
> 
> ...


Quite the contrary. I am not focusing on the website, but rather paying much closer attention to details that, in my opinon, matter far more. And I won't have one because heaven forbid I miss a detail on it and someone be concerned about my lack of attention to detail. 
I have ALWAYS welcomed the potential buyers who drill me on every little detail, and, as I've usually got a lot more experience than they do, I OFFER it to them if they don't. Much like Ash, I'm sure.

We'll have to agere to disagree, because I simply do not think that any of the three details that caused you concern ultimately affect the attention to detail that this, or many other breeders, prioritize for the _dogs themselves_. A breeder doesn't need an MBA in Business to be an excellent one. My focus and conern will always be on the other side of the "business" and my dogs reflect that.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> We'll have to agere to disagree, because I simply do not think that any of the three details that caused you concern ultimately affect the attention to detail that this, or many other breeders, prioritize for the _dogs themselves_. A breeder doesn't need an MBA in Business to be an excellent one.


I have offered my insight and perspective . . . I hope that has been helpful to breeders. 

I have read on this forum that inbreeding is the breeding of two dogs that are very closely related to one another. I get the impression that inbreeding is accepted, but not desired. 

Here is where I have a problem - it has been stated that inbreeding can produce some undesirable traits and health problems dues to genetic influence. 

Am I correct? 

If so, then given this knowledge, great care should be taken by all breeders and potential owners. When an accidental breeding occurs, I believe that due dilligence, openness, communication, and accountability is of utmost importance to everyone concerned - and I know you get that. Whether or not these behaviors are exercised is for the breeder and potential owner to judge for themselves. Thats all I have to say on this topic - I appreciate your loyalty to your colleagues and I do have a strong sense that you care and many of the breeders care.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Being much the outsider, I can only comment that from what I've learned here good breeders carefully study pedigrees and plan breedings sometimes years in advance to in some way improve their line and the breed in general. Since Ash has shown herself to be a caring, responsible breeder in all the years I've been here, and since, if I remember reading correcly, this was a breeding she had planned on doing in the future, I would certainly give her the benefit of any doubt.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

When breeders refer to "inbreeding", it is generally mother to son, father to daughter. Not usually done. "Linebreeding" is done frequently, and CAREFULLY, for a variety of reasons and the dogs are not as closely related.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Marty's Mom said:


> Here is where I have a problem - it has been stated that inbreeding can produce some undesirable traits and health problems dues to genetic influence.
> 
> Am I correct?
> 
> If so, then given this knowledge, great care should be taken by all breeders and potential owners. When an accidental breeding occurs, I believe that due dilligence, openness, communication, and accountability is of utmost importance to everyone concerned - and I know you get that. Whether or not these behaviors are exercised is for the breeder and potential owner to judge for themselves. Thats all I have to say on this topic - I appreciate your loyalty to your colleagues and I do have a strong sense that you care and many of the breeders care.



Pointgold explained "inbreeding" so I will skip over that. As for the question you pose above. Line breeding is used to reproduce traits that a breeder is looking to set it i their "lines". The tighter the line breeding the more likely those traits will be produced, BUT (and yes it is a BIG BUT) you can also can also double up on the traits you do not want. An experienced breeder realizes this and must decide based on their knowledge of their lines and what it has produce in other breedings whether or not it is worth it. I remember talking to a very well known and established breeder about this and she told me I will breed two times to my own lines to tighten things up and then co outside my lines in the next generation, then either go back to my own lines for the forth generation or maybe to the line I bred to get this third generation - depending on what I have in that third generation. As we all know ANY breeding can produce problems that is why some breeders do not like to go outside their lines too often, at least they have a good knowledge of what the good and bad is. Sometimes with another's it is not easy to see. 
Hope this all makes sense.

And the one point I must agree with you on is if it was not disclosed that this was an accidental breeding of an underage dog that would also be of concern to me. What was and was not said only the breeder and the OP know, but it is not a good situation.

Not really being loyal to a colleague just trying to explain how things can happen.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

This is a very tight line breeding - half brother to half sister, not inbreeding.

Brandyj came to this forum announcing 'we found our breeder' who happens to be a member of this forum and when pointed out that Whyatt was underaged and this was an accidental breeding, Brandyj didn't realize this until after the post as they posted this reply:
*
I wasn't informed of this by Ash, and I guess I need to look more into the whole idea behind it... Kudos to the man/woman who eyed it out!

This is all very new to me 

I appreciate everyones input. And I guess on top of health reasons etc, what would be a price to pay for such pup?

This sure threw a curve in our road 

I appreciate it again everyone.*

I believe Brandyj was looking for guidance from this forum as the first pup they had was from a pet shop and stated it was done the wrong way. I have read many comments that are helpful and educational. This thread is about Brandyj and their search for a new puppy. 

I will take away this lesson that I have learned from this thread - be upfront, honest and if the breeding is accidental, don't feel ashamed.....it happens to the very best breeders and also the not so very good breeders but it happened. 

Brandyj - I hope you have found this thread educational, perhaps have learned from it and I wish you luck with your search for a golden retriever puppy.


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## Sunkota (Sep 30, 2010)

I never criticize another breeder for an accident because we all know it could happen to us, no matter how careful we are, if we have them in the same house. Of course I do have a problem with the "breeders" that have "accidents" all the time.

I had an accident litter, not how I thought one might happen. My sister-in-law brought her Champion, all clearances, bitch for me to keep while she was away. I let her out with the rest of the crew, a few days later I noticed my 18 month male acting very flirty and trying to mount her. I checked her and she was in season (had not seen any drops in the house), she had come in 2 months early, but I figured it must be early in the season, nothing had happened, separated them, etc.

Well - 6 weeks later you could tell something had happened. I rushed my male in for hip prelims (he had heart and current eyes, we were not doing elbows then) and he was prelim good. Actually a pretty pedigree on paper, both were nice dogs, the male was pointed. I placed all in pet homes except for a bitch that went to a friend (she finished her Championship easily). It ended up being a beautiful, healthy litter. 

I was upfront with the buyers but I did charge for the pups (though not as much as I did for my planned litters). In this case at least the male was 18 months and you can be pretty sure that an OFA 18 mo. prelim Good will pass at 2 years (and he did).

The accidental breeding that Brandyj is looking at may end up being a wonderful litter. I would make sure both parents have full clearances, recent eye exams, and the male has OFA prelims done recently.


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## brandyj (Dec 27, 2010)

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> This is a very tight line breeding - half brother to half sister, not inbreeding.
> 
> Brandyj came to this forum announcing 'we found our breeder' who happens to be a member of this forum and when pointed out that Whyatt was underaged and this was an accidental breeding, Brandyj didn't realize this until after the post as they posted this reply:
> 
> ...


THANK YOU! I wasn't looking to downfall anyone, I was looking for advice! That's all


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

brandyj said:


> THANK YOU! I wasn't looking to downfall anyone, I was looking for advice! That's all


Of course, how could you if you did not know the actual details of the litter?

I noticed another thread about perhaps adopting Bentley and looking for advice in regards to rescue. I hope whatever route you end up taking that things work out for you & your family!


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## brandyj (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes, Bentley is an option. We're going to meet with Ash tonight and further discuss the details. 

We're going to decide what is best for our family, and I'll be sure to keep everyone posted


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Good luck in whatever path you take.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ok if you look it up on Wikipedia, "line breeding" is a more mild form of "inbreeding." Aren't you splitting hairs calling it "inbreeding" when it's brother to sister and "line breeding" when it's half brother to have sister? It's close no matter what.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Ok if you look it up on Wikipedia, "line breeding" is a more mild form of "inbreeding." Aren't you splitting hairs calling it "inbreeding" when it's brother to sister and "line breeding" when it's half brother to have sister? It's close no matter what.


If you are referring to me, I was making a general statement as to how breeders most commonly use the two terms.

I was not specifically commenting on this particular, or any other litter.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The reference was to no one in particular. My comment was that linebreeding is a subset of inbreeding. As the saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think if we're going to continue to discuss linebreedings, we should do it in this thread, which was started specifically for that purpose:

Linebreeding.

Continuing in this thread makes things seem like they're about Ash's accidental breeding, even if they aren't, and makes an already touchy topic take on a feeling of being personal. So I would encourage folks who want to discuss the purpose, upsides, and downsides of close breedings to talk there rather than here.


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## brandyj (Dec 27, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I think if we're going to continue to discuss linebreedings, why don't we do it in this thread, which was started specifically for that purpose:
> 
> Linebreeding.
> 
> Continuing in this thread makes things seem like they're about Ash's accidental breeding, even if they aren't, and makes an already touchy topic take on a feeling of being personal. So I would encourage folks who want to discuss the purpose, upsides, and downsides of close breedings to talk there rather than here.


 
AGREED, thank you


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> The reference was to no one in particular. My comment was that linebreeding is a subset of inbreeding. As the saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig....


Yes. I know this. As do a majority of breeders. However, there are compelling reasons to make a linebreeding (a subset of inbreeding) when done with care and a goal in mind by breeders with a strong knowledge of the vertical pedigrees involved. Hardly putting lipstick on a pig.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am not condemning anyone's decision on a breeding because I truly believe that to breed dogs, the individual has to make judgment calls on the breeding, just inform the new owners. I do not presume to be holier than thou.... AND I also do not believe that a breeder's "insight" into a "close" breeding or in breeding or "tight" linebreeding justifies the breeding. Genetics are just that.... why did I get my dad's dark Italian skin and my sister got the light skin and red hair? You cannot predict so much of the genetics and anyone who thinks they know it all when it comes to genetics is delusional. Call it "inbreeding" or "tight" linebreeding, I still say it's like putting lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig. Linebreeding is inbreeding, just not so close. My 3rd golden came from a breeder I like, and she did 1/2 brother and 1/2 sister breedings(not my girl), so my mind is open, but this is a topic that should not be "sugar coated."


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I meant to put that in the other thread.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I am not condemning anyone's decision on a breeding because I truly believe that to breed dogs, the individual has to make judgment calls on the breeding, just inform the new owners. I do not presume to be holier than thou.... AND I also do not believe that a breeder's "insight" into a "close" breeding or in breeding or "tight" linebreeding justifies the breeding. Genetics are just that.... why did I get my dad's dark Italian skin and my sister got the light skin and red hair? You cannot predict so much of the genetics and anyone who thinks they know it all when it comes to genetics is delusional. Call it "inbreeding" or "tight" linebreeding, I still say it's like putting lipstick on a pig... it's still a pig. Linebreeding is inbreeding, just not so close. My 3rd golden came from a breeder I like, and she did 1/2 brother and 1/2 sister breedings(not my girl), so my mind is open, but this is a topic that should not be "sugar coated."


I do not think that I have ever "sugar coated" this topic. I do not take any breeding lightly - linebreeding or outcrossing, nor do I know anyone who thinks they "know it all" when it comes to genetics, thank you. I never said that a breeder's "insight" has anything to do with it - those are your words, not mine. Having a strong knowledge of the vertical pedigrees of the animals involved is far more than "insight". Studying pedigrees and what has been produced for generations prior to making a decision on ANY breeding, and having generations of clearances is a large part of "justifying" it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And just to keep it straight, my first 2 goldens had more than 5 generations of clearances that were acceptable at that time. One had a laterally luxating patella that needed surgical correction at 6 months The other was OFA FAIR at 2 years and then mildly dysplastic at 4 years in one hip. I have "studied" pedigrees since I could read. It started with thoroughbred horses and my dad's "British Racehorses" magazine. It continued into the canines. I have no idea how you breed or why. This is not a personal attack on anyone. I was simply stating that "tight" linebreeding is not a far step from "inbreeding."


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

I am going to have to strongly disagree with you on the above comments. My "insight" into the pedigrees that I breed into do in fact justify the breedings I choose to do. Studying pedigrees for hours on end will do you no good without first hand knowledge of the dogs in the pedigrees. Of course we can predict what we should get based on genetics. Yes there will always be the exception to the rule but when you look to the parents, grandparents, great grandparents, great great grandparents and all the other relatives you can get a pretty good idea of what to expect. As for the differences between you and your sister well I would have to assume you have a fair skinned, red haired relative somewhere in your family tree.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If genetics are so predictable why do we continue to do OFA clearances and CERF's? And do not presume to know what knowledge that I or anyone else has on any given pedigree. And sorry, great grandparents etc, do not always predict what you will get. My golden #2 was sired by DAR(OS) and on her maternal side had Expo(OS), she was OFA Fair at 24 months and mildly dysplastic at 44 months. Her parents far outlived her on longevity. So how can that explain my beloved bitch? And golden #1 had a laterally luxating patella at 6 months, her parents were clear, yet most of her littermates had orthopedic issues... but had clear parents. And golden# 1 outlived her mother who died at 7 years. And when I say "studying" pedigrees it is observing the data available to gain that knowledge. My position has always been that it important to explain to the owners who purchase your pups the rationale behind the breedings.... and my comments were not directly or indirectly centered toward you, so I do not entirely understand your comment.


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## brookshiregr (Feb 19, 2009)

If by Dar you mean Am./Can. CH. Colabaugh's Daredevil UD JH WC OS Can. WC then I am very familiar with the pedigree since I bred the dog.
I do not presume to know anyone's knowledge of pedigrees.
To know more about your bitch you have to look at more than just her parents. Look at siblings, aunts, uncles etc. It is so much more than mother and father, which I'm sure you know.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Julie, Ch Colabaugh's Daredevil UD JH WC OS ( canadian Ch and CD)is an amazing golden. Congratulations for breeding him, and so many other stunning, sound dogs.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes Julie, I knew you were Dar's breeder. I loved his daughter that I owned. I used to get compliments on her when she showed especially by people who knew either Dar or his sister and were familiar with the pedigree.


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