# Petland and Puppy Mills?



## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree, Nancy but they probably won't be the ones watching these shows.

Pet Store people are impulse and uneducated consumers and I doubt if they will want to be educated.. maybe it will get the word out. Although Oprah probably had more watching her show on the subject!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Our sweet Cody was an Petland impulse buy. When he grew to be a goofy springer, they threw him in the backyard and forgot him. It was only when he was on death's doorstep that (luckily) they turned him over to ESRA. I love my baby boy with all my heart...... but his story is not a pretty one. HATE you Petland.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

It might open the eyes of a few folks. Getting this type of information out there is really important. Even if it only stops some people from buying from petstores, that's a step in the right direction.


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## anniekc (Jan 29, 2010)

Petland needs to be shut down. Period. My neighbor's son worked at one for several months and the family wanted to buy one of their boutique breeds that had languished in his cage for MONTHS, and the B.S. rigamaroll they put him through to get this pup was pathetic! They have ridiculous rules about how they chip away at the price and then if they STILL can't sell the pup at what they bought it for, (even with "employee discount") they start calling "breeders", (puppy mills) within a tri state area to try and sell it. It was such a disgusting story- and I know it was true because I went in to see the dog and ask about the price myself! And this was on a gangly, completely non-socialized, six month old Cava-shon. (not sure if thats exactly what you call it) 

I know the laws in Kansas are hideous as far as animal rights go, but these stores are appalling! They let these poor caged pups get man, and child mauled all day long! I hate them with a passion.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

anniekc said:


> Petland needs to be shut down. Period.


I agree. We made the mistake of walking into one a couple weeks ago. Normally, I won't buy _anything_ from Petland, because I don't want to give them monetary support at all. We were heading to PetSmart because I desperately needed some bath wipes and there was an accident or something - traffic was backed up for blocks - so we made the mistake of running into Petland. (Luckily, they didn't have the wipes I wanted, anyway.)

I heard quite a bit of barking coming from one of the cages, so of course I had to torture myself and see what was making all the noise. There was the most adorable little longhaired sable GSD pup sitting there, looking at me. I almost burst into tears when I saw him. It's a good thing we can only have two dogs where we live now, because had we still been at the old house, I wouldn't have walked away from him. I couldn't have.

He's a cute little ball of fluff now, and some idiot will have no idea what he's going to be when he grows up, or the work he's going to require. I just hope and pray that he finds his way to a good rescue before he's completely ruined. 

I noticed on the cage that they have the monthly payments posted. So they're financing now? (Not sure when that started??) That's great - make an impulse buy even easier by telling people it will only cost them $40 a month. 

I don't know how much good these shows will do, but it can't hurt and it's a start. If even one person sees it and decides against buying a pet store puppy, then it's served its purpose.


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## cathycolley (Feb 1, 2009)

This is so interesting.
I am looking forward to watching the show and I am going to tell everyone I know to watch it.
I have always been against the Pet Store/puppy mill mess, it is a good thing if the word is getting out there..I don't know anything about the lawsuit but now I will research it.
That is a horrible story about Petland.
Thanks for the info and maybe we can try to make a difference by getting the word out,


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I hate Petland SO much. They have one in a MALL in the city I live so there's always people getting pulled in by the puppies/kittens that are, of course, placed right at the entrance of the store. Everytime I walk by I see kids begging their parents to buy and sadly, lots of the people do. Impulse buys for dogs totally unsuitable, unhealthy and that will encourage the puppy millers to keep going. As soon as these dogs grow up and aren't cute anymore, off to the shelter they go. It makes me sick.

Which is why a few years ago, I lost it completely and started stopping people who were ogling over the puppies and handed out pics of a puppy mill that had just shut down. Most people were horrified and sickened, especially when I started talking about it. Then a Petland employee came out and started giving me BS about how their dogs don't come from that - "all their dogs are purebreds" and from "reputable breeders". I challenged that with why are the dogs "oodles" and "uggles" etc and how come it says "Registered" on their cages when CKC doesn't recognize those breeds? Who are they registered with? Then I started the "reputable breeder" BS and started handing out MORE sheets with what to look for in reputable breeders. At one point, it was me and 5 of the employees "debating" with close to 40 people around us listening in. 

Finally, they called mall security on me for being "disruptive" when I wasn't at all! I wasn't yelling, I wasn't shouting, no name-calling, nothing. Just a calm, discussion about how petland kills animals and treats them like garbage while further encouraging the practice of puppymills. Anytime one of the employees argued a point, I argued back - with facts, not just what someone told me. At least no one bought a dog that day...

Now when I walk by, I have to avert my eyes. Can't even look at it or else I think I'll do the same thing. I also dont' shop at petland. Only stores that encourage rescues (Petsmart) or stores that don't sell live animals.


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## Sneeks (Mar 8, 2010)

Wanted to share my story...

I used to live in the Florida Panhandle and was 30miles from any major city. When I did drive into the city, it didn't have any petstores, at least not then. There was however a Petland.

I've never heard any of the things you all have said until now, not saying I don't believe it, just never heard anything like this.

I found the cutest Siberian Husky, and yes it was an impulse purchase and yes we financed him with their Wells Fargo credit card. Our experience there was great.

7 years later, Sabre is still in our lives and is a very sweet gentle husky. He has all his papers and even came with his AKC family tree. 

Previous to that, we used to get our dogs from the pounds. Now, we will only get our dogs from a reputable breeder.


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## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

Sneeks said:


> Wanted to share my story...
> 
> I used to live in the Florida Panhandle and was 30miles from any major city. When I did drive into the city, it didn't have any petstores, at least not then. There was however a Petland.
> 
> ...


"Our experience there was great."

I think you are missing the entire point here. It is not the customers satisfaction that we are concerned about...it is the puppies and the mothers that brought them into the world. You never know if your puppy's mother has spent her entire entire life locked up in a small cage to only be used for breeding purposes.


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## Sneeks (Mar 8, 2010)

I'll be sure to watch the show, but I was just stating that my puppy purchasing experience there was a good one. I can't speak to the effect of how the puppy or his mom were treated. Sorry if my post was misleading, but I am concerned and do not support puppy mills. I was young and dumb when I got him.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

heartofgold said:


> "Our experience there was great."
> 
> I think you are missing the entire point here. It is not the customers satisfaction that we are concerned about...it is the puppies and the mothers that brought them into the world. You never know if your puppy's mother has spent her entire entire life locked up in a small cage to only be used for breeding purposes.


Exactly. It absolutely is NOT about the customer's satisfaction. These puppy mill dogs come from disgusting and heart wrenching conditions. The dogs they breed are locked up in little kennels and have next to zero socialization or training. They have zero health clearance and are only seen as money makers and nothing more. They are bred until they can't be used anymore and then are usually dumped somewhere. People don't realize what they are supporting when they purchase a puppy from a store like Petland. It's basically encouraging puppy mills to keep breeding. I absolutely 100% refuse to even go near a pet store that sells puppies and kittens. I refuse to give them any kind of business whatsoever. I would like nothing more than to see these types of businesses shut down for good. :no:


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

As much as I understand why many feel the way they do about retail pet stores and Petlands, I would like to offer another perspective. Just like all breeders are not created equal, one can say not all retail pet stores or Petland's are also. Actually, while this may (unfortunately) be the case with some pet stores, many have actually re-thought how animals are sold and realize that not only will customers not buy pets that come from bad breeders (or puppy mills), but it's also unethical and just plain wrong. Instead, the industry has are started a movement to get pet stores and breeders to up their game when it comes to selling well-treated animals from reputable breeders. 

Banning the sale of pets in pet stores WON'T stop the puppy mill problem, just like banning drugs doesn't stop the drug problem. It only removes the necessary regulations to keep both pet stores and breeders accountable for the way they are going about the business. We need to work together to help REGULATE the industry, not BAN it completely, as that's not going to help either the animals, pet stores, breeders, or your communities. Banning Pet Stores from selling pets WON’T stop the puppy mill problem, as it would just remove necessary regulations to keep both pet stores and breeders accountable and allow other unregulated puppy sources to flourish with no oversight. The wild wild unregulated west of the internet will continue and puppy mills, as they do now, will flourish as banning pet stores does not address the problem.

Believe it or not, there are actually reputable pet stores who are 100% transparent about where they get their animals - from local breeders. Adopting dogs from a rescue or shelter comes with many problems as well. Many are violent and have hidden health issues that may be very expensive and will leave the now owner with a broken heart. 

The preeminent study by Cornell University of Veterinary Medicine on the health of puppies from various sources demonstrates, on average, pet store puppies are as healthy as, or healthier than, those from any other source. Nearly 25% of dogs and cats adopted from shelters had reported health problems one week after adoption and an additional 10% had reported health problems within the 1st month after adoption (source: The Journal of American Veterinarian Medical Association). In recent years, pet store puppies had fewer health claims thus prompting pet health insurance carrier DVM/VPI Insurance Group to reduce its premiums for pet store puppies and kittens by as much as 22% (Source: DVM/VPI Insurance Group).

There is a huge difference between professional breeders and puppy mills. There is more oversight of breeders who sell puppies to pet stores than any other type of breeder, shelter or even rescue. Professional breeders are inspected by the USDA, individual states Department of Agriculture, breeder associations, the American Kennel Club (AKC), state veterinarians, breeder veterinarians, pet stores themselves, employees of pet stores, even veterinarians from the pet stores have visited the professional breeders these puppies are being sourced from. In fact, if you care to visit some of these pet store breeders you will find them to be responsible professionals, their facilities are clean, providing proper sized kennels, flooring, walls, and safe surfaces far beyond any minimum mandates that might be required by law. You will find these facilities provide socialization, good ventilation, temperature, and pet care including exercise, feeding, watering, and a sanitized environment. This is unlike puppy mills that are unlicensed and not inspected, little record-keeping and veterinarian care, poor housing and sanitation, and often terrible conditions. Breeders that meet this definition are “puppy mills’ and should definitely be shut down! 

IT IS A FACT THAT MANY MISGUIDED ANIMAL ACTIVIST THAT ARE TRYING TO STOP PUPPY MILLS BY PUTTING AN END TO RETAIL SALES, ARE ACTUALLY FOSTERING THE GROWTH OF THESE SAME PUPPY MILLS! MANY RESCUES AND SHELTERS RECOGNIZE THIS IS BIG BUSINESS AND ARE IMPORTING DOGS FROM OUTSIDE THE US. THESE FOREIGN SUPPLIERS ARE UNREGULATED FOR THE MOST PART AND ARE INDEED PUPPY MILLS. 

It’s a disturbing trend that’s taken off in the past decade: The importation of puppies from overseas. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are being imported yearly now from countries like Romania, Ukraine, Egypt, and Turkey. The threat of infectious disease, rabies and other zoonotic diseases is real based on trends suggesting that the annual number of vaccinated puppies being imported into the United States has increased substantially. A dog imported from Egypt to a Kansas shelter, 'Unleashed Pet Rescue' in Mission, Kansas, was infected with rabies! The shelter and rescue systems recognize that dogs are 'big business.' In the United States, they are importing dogs from these countries to meet the public demand and build their profits. The NAIA site has a story from the Puerto Rico Daily Sun about 107 puppies that died of distemper on their way from the island to the New York area. In fact, as many as 300,000 puppies a year are being imported based on yearly estimates, according to Gale Galland, Veterinarian in the CDC’s Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (Sources: NAIA and ABC News 2006). Now that was in 2006! It’s no secret that most of the middlemen in this new import game are puppy millers and less-than-scrupulous puppy retailers. As conditions for commercial breeders (aka puppy millers) get tougher in the United States, meeting the demand for purebreds means outsourcing pup production. 

In reality, many rescues are working to ban puppy sales from pet stores on the incorrect bases that these stores are fostering 'puppy mills', however, they are in actuality fostering the growth of puppy mills in the countries that are supplying puppies to them, and these countries are not regulated!


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## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

no, there are no pet stores that get their dogs from responsible breeders. Responsible breeders want to know where their puppies end up, they want to screen the homes. They do not sell dogs to pet stores. Period.

And if someone doesn't want a shelter animal, which I understand, they can go to an actual breeder, local or otherwise. They don't need a pet store. That way, they can see the conditions the mother is kept in, how the dogs are socialized, etc. 

Not even getting into the horrid behavior issues puppies from pet stores have....they've learned to pee and poop where they eat, in their kennel...potty training is often a nightmare, etc.


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

Obviously, someone that makes such a broad statement that no ‘responsible breeder’ would sell dogs to a pet store is expressing an opinion. Of course, this opinion is not based on facts and would cause us to define the word ‘responsible breeder’. While this definition is not defined, I believe a ‘responsible breeder’ is someone that is placing the health of their dogs above all else. Typically, federal, state or local laws include care standards, and veterinary treatment requirements. Professional breeders ensure that the dogs are properly fed and watered, they have socialization programs in place, and provide appropriate housing. They choose to subject themselves voluntarily to regulation, surprise inspection, and fines by the USDA. They join professional breeder associations, and also enroll in recognized registries including American Kennel Club. They allow inspections by veterinarians, state Department of Agriculture, breeder associations, American Kennel Club, pet stores, and even the general public to influence the standard of care given to their animals. This is all part of what I envision as a responsible breeder. Someone that does not provide this professional standard of care might be called into question or might not, but these are all indicators of a ‘responsible breeder’ in my eyes. I would NOT base my definition around a blanket statement made by someone that likely has NEVER inspected a professional breeder or that defines the term ‘responsible breeders’ only by not selling to a retail puppy store, as this seems rather ignorant of the facts and emotionally charged. 

As a side note, it is my understanding, and interesting to note that not one USDA breeder has ever been associated with a puppy mill raid. This cannot be said for shelters and rescues that have numerous times been associated with closures and shutdowns due to unhealthy facilities and dogs.

Not everyone wants a shelter animal. While it is noble to take in a rescue dog many of them do come with health and emotional issues that are difficult to overcome. As many as 40% of shelter/rescue animals are returned for these and other reasons. Pet stores are not the source of unwanted pets in shelters. The National Council on Pet Population Study and Policy report found that 96 percent of relinquished pets came from somewhere other than a pet store, and 70 percent of the time the reasons owners relinquish a dog or cat to a shelter could have been prevented with consumer education. There is no knowledge of where these dogs are coming from and we now know that due to the dog shortage in the United States over 1,000,000 dogs a year are being imported into the United States, many by the shelters and rescues themselves. We have introduced all forms of disease and parasites into our dogs with deadly consequences due to these importations. Sometimes, people want to purchase a dog from a pet store where they know they receive a warranty to cover medical costs, where the dog is a proven purebred with a registry and pedigree behind it, where they know the pet store is working with the breeders to make sure only the best breeders stay in business and provide puppies. Again, The preeminent study by Cornell University of Veterinary Medicine on the health of puppies from various sources demonstrates, on average, pet store puppies are as healthy as, or healthier than, those from any other source.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

You're in metro Atlanta - surely you remember this being all over the news last year: https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/co...inspectors-to-investigate-pet-store/683067592

https://patch.com/georgia/buford/dead-sick-puppies-found-ga-pet-stores-humane-society-report

I'm also curious what your vested interest is in pet stores selling puppies?


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## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

Responsible breeders do health clearances on the breeding dogs, they work to improve the breed, they screen buyers to be sure the right puppy ends up in the right home, they provide the healthiest start possible (which is not in a building/room with dozens of other puppies from other places), they start the dog on housebreaking, they provide socialization with noises/animals/textures/surfaces/people/etc, they do home checks or vet checks, they make sure the person buying the dog has legal ability to do so in their current dwelling, they use spay neuter contracts to prevent dogs with less than optimal breeding characteristics from passing those on to another generation. 

A breeder can't be doing that if they sell the dog to a pet store, never meet the prospective owners, etc. 

Your idea of responsible breeder seems to equal "doesn't do anything illegal or commit gross animal abuse". The rest of the animal world defines it differently.


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

Carlswans you are completely missing the point of responsible breeders. It's not about doing the basic minimum. It's about doing the absolute maximum possible to ensure each GR puppy is fit and well, safe and and socialised, and going to a forever home where they will be loved. Anything less is breeding for profit first and foremost, and that's not acceptable to anyone on this forum.


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

I am also curious as to why you would defend pet store puppies with such a long and diversionary pseudoscientific post. Do you have a vested interest? It's an unusual position to take, especially amongst GR breed enthusiasts.


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## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

HollyB said:


> I am also curious as to why you would defend pet store puppies with such a long and diversionary pseudoscientific post. Do you have a vested interest? It's an unusual position to take, especially amongst GR breed enthusiasts.


Agreed! And for anyone reading, the only people that generally are licensed by an agricultural organization like that poster is talking about are LARGE scale breeders. Not mom and pop breeding their pets, not the average breeder having 1-2 litters a year at most. Puppy mills...that's who has those types of licenses.


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

The parvo virus is a very real concern, and I am glad to see that the Department of Agriculture is investigating as they provide the licensing for a pet store. The article did not mention any citations, violations, or fines and in fact stated that the number of investigations are not excessive. Of greater importance is establishing the fact that breeders are not manufacturing toaster ovens for sale. They are dealing with biological beings that are prone to being sick as puppies. Every Petland is following veterinarian protocols and oversight to ensure that the puppies sold are the healthiest they can be. This is evidenced by pet store puppies having fewer health claims thus prompting pet health insurance carrier DVM/VPI Insurance Group to reduce its premiums for pet store puppies and kittens by as much as 22% (Source: DVM/VPI Insurance Group). The preeminent study by Cornell University of Veterinary Medicine on the health of puppies from various sources demonstrates, on average, pet store puppies are as healthy as, or healthier than, those from any other source. Nearly 25% of dogs and cats adopted from shelters had reported health problems one week after adoption and an additional 10% had reported health problems within the 1st month after adoption (source: The Journal of American Veterinarian Medical Association).

You also mentioned, "I'm also curious what your vested interest is in pet stores selling puppies?" Well I have had three Goldens, the last from a Petland. It infuriates me when I see 'activists' who are misinformed or don't know what they are talking about, give these stores a bad rap. My experience was excellent! I was informed of the breeder, viewed the health history of the Golden I chose, met the store owner who had visited with the breeder personally and even informed me that his veterinarian now had a pup from the same sire and dam. I was able to interact with the puppies, under supervision, and choose the one with the best personality as I saw fit. The kennels were clean, the puppies were checked by a Vet the day of arrival to the store, and again under constant supervision by the kennel staff. I have a warranty, and if my puppy had gotten sick for any reason (which she did not), I could take her to any of a number of store approved veterinarians in the surrounding area. Oh, her spray is taken care of by the store at no charge to me. I could go on, but having purchased two Goldens from breeders, I have to say, my experience with Petland was the best.


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

Reply to Holly B - I have had three Goldens, the last from a Petland. It infuriates me when I see 'activists' who are misinformed or don't know what they are talking about, give these stores a bad rap. My experience was excellent! I was informed of the breeder, viewed the health history of the Golden I chose, met the store owner who had visited with the breeder personally and even informed me that his veterinarian now had a pup from the same sire and dam. I was able to interact with the puppies, under supervision, and choose the one with the best personality as I saw fit. The kennels were clean, the puppies were checked by a Vet the day of arrival to the store, and again under constant supervision by the kennel staff. I have a warranty, and if my puppy had gotten sick for any reason (which she did not), I could take her to any of a number of store approved veterinarians in the surrounding area. Oh, her spray is taken care of by the store at no charge to me. I could go on, but having purchased two Goldens from breeders, I have to say, my experience with Petland was the best.


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

Reply to Holly B - If you read carefully, and with an open mind, my post discussing responsible breeders you would not have said, 'I am completely missing the point'. What I described was a long way from the 'basic minimum'. Have you ever been to a professional breeder that sells to pet stores? I have owned two Golden's purchased directly from breeders. They were great companions and I loved them dearly. I was satisfied when purchasing my current Golden from Petland that the source breeder was not a 'puppy mill' by all recognized understanding of what a 'puppy mill' is. I discussed much of this in my prior post. The Humane Society of the United States (“HSUS”) defines puppy mills as dog-breeding operations that put profit above the welfare of dogs, with facilities that are kept in deplorable and unsanitary conditions, lack proper veterinary care for the dogs, and the standards of care are often inadequate to ensure humane treatment. The consequences are felt through the mistreatment and continuous abuse of dogs. 

You say my belief is, "it's an unusual position to take, especially amongst GR breed enthusiasts." Hmm, from my standpoint, I consider myself to be a GR breed enthusiasts, but I think for myself, and it really bothers me when I hear comment from the misinformed, and especially the misinformation that is going around out there. I also see that many just make up and present their own criteria as to what a 'puppy mill' is, and present the rational that pets should only be purchased directly from breeders. Suggest re-reading my prior posts.


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## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

carlswans said:


> Reply to Holly B - My experience was excellent! I was informed of the breeder, viewed the health history of the Golden I chose, met the store owner who had visited with the breeder personally and even informed me that his veterinarian now had a pup from the same sire and dam. .


Um...so because the store owner, who profits from convincing you to buy a puppy, told you this, it is automatically true? And the veterinarian, who is being paid by the store, not you, and therefore has a HUGE conflict of interest...also totally to be trusted to give you an unbiased opinion of the dog's health? Cause I can tell you, we got in LOTS of very sickly, genetically messed up puppies from pet stores, including Petland, that had health certificates signed by the store's approved veterinarian. It's like buying a used car and trusting the car lot's mechanic. 

And what health clearances did the parents have? What screenings did the pet store owner do to make sure you would be a responsible owner? 

Again, regarding USDA licensing, that is NOT sufficient. You can be totally compliant with the USDA and the Animal Welfare Act (AWA) requirements and still be a puppy mill. For example: 
What is allowed under the AWA?

There is no limit to the number of dogs on the premises. A puppy mill could have hundreds or thousands of dogs.
There is no requirement on the number of staff that must be available to care for the dogs.
Dogs may be kept in stacked cages.
Mesh or wire flooring is allowed.
Dogs may be forced to relieve themselves in their cages.
Dogs may be confined in spaces only six inches larger than their bodies, not including the tail.
A dog may be caged 24 hours a day for his or her entire life, only removed from the cage to be bred.
There is no exercise requirement if dogs are housed with other dogs and certain minimal size requirements are met for the dog’s enclosure.
Human interaction is not required.
Breeding females at the first heat cycle and every heat cycle is permissible.
Unwanted animals may be killed or auctioned off.

More info on that here: https://www.thepuppymillproject.org/relevant-laws/

So no, someone keeping breeding females pregnant cycle after cycle, living in a wire mesh cage almost constantly, is not a "responsible breeder" and yet would still have that USDA credential you are talking about.


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## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

As for what is a responsible breeder: https://www.thepuppymillproject.org/responsible-breeder-checklist/


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

Reply to ktgrok - I realize that no amount of information will change your mind. Just to close out this discussion, although I know you won't accept the information.

Sick puppies, from pet stores? Fact - Puppies having fewer health claims thus prompting pet health insurance carrier DVM/VPI Insurance Group to reduce its premiums for pet store puppies and kittens by as much as 22% (Source: DVM/VPI Insurance Group). The preeminent study by Cornell University of Veterinary Medicine on the health of puppies from various sources demonstrates, on average, pet store puppies are as healthy as, or healthier than, those from any other source. 

Do these look like Puppy Mills to you? Well fact is they are light years ahead of many hobby breeders you advocate in providing just what we really want in care of and facilities for puppies. Just like me, you can pull these off the internet, and there are hundreds of these reputable, professional breeders who are proud of their dogs, and take pains in caring for them.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

carlswans said:


> \. Every Petland is following veterinarian protocols and oversight to ensure that the puppies sold are the healthiest they can be. This is evidenced by pet store puppies having fewer health claims thus prompting pet health insurance carrier DVM/VPI Insurance Group to reduce its premiums for pet store puppies and kittens by as much as 22% (Source: DVM/VPI Insurance Group). .


Can you -when you state something like this- please put the entire citation and not just the source? Your interpretation may not be the same as mine, and I cannot find this particular claim. 
For all I know this reduced premium may be as simple as an initial 'free' agreement w Petland... just as my puppies go home w free Trupanion insurance. 
Same for all the other citations you use as backup.
Petland- Chattanooga- no more puppies. 
Tampa and Orlando- as far as the two I know personally, there is no reason to complain even though there ARE complaints- the contract/financing, dog that [email protected] 2500 and by the time you buy their required 'package' is at a financed $3800, the two I know of both would have loved to return because of health and general buyers remorse..but there is no way to w the contract. That inability to return alone is a bad thing.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

carlswans said:


> Reply to Holly B - I have had three Goldens, the last from a Petland. It infuriates me when I see 'activists' who are misinformed or don't know what they are talking about, give these stores a bad rap. My experience was excellent! I was informed of the breeder, viewed the health history of the Golden I chose, met the store owner who had visited with the breeder personally and even informed me that his veterinarian now had a pup from the same sire and dam. I was able to interact with the puppies, under supervision, and choose the one with the best personality as I saw fit. The kennels were clean, the puppies were checked by a Vet the day of arrival to the store, and again under constant supervision by the kennel staff. I have a warranty, and if my puppy had gotten sick for any reason (which she did not), I could take her to any of a number of store approved veterinarians in the surrounding area. Oh, her spray is taken care of by the store at no charge to me. I could go on, but having purchased two Goldens from breeders, I have to say, my experience with Petland was the best.


How old is your puppy from Petland? I always wonder this when I see a 5 Star review for a breeder I wouldn't even call. I want to know how you feel when this puppy is a little older? Maybe it was a great puppy, but how healthy is it at 6-8 years old? We don't have a Petland that I'm aware of anywhere near me, but I can't imagine that any of the breeders I would be interested in would sell to a store. They have wait lists for 2-3 litters ahead.

Also, on your comments about rescues, I have personally never gotten a dog from a rescue. I believe in supporting responsible breeders. I want to give my money to someone that shares my values for the dogs. I will say that the owner of a rescue near you recently provided me personally with access to a specialty hospital she is under contract with. She actually purchased a litter mate of my dog because she's always wanted to compete in agility. They reviewed my guys records for a very rare problem at her request. I got an answer directly from the Dr. at 10 p.m. on a week night so that I had another opinion before deciding on surgery. I didn't realize that many rescues take in dogs with major health issues because they have the funding that the original owners don't. I am fortunate and didn't need their help, but it is nice to know that if people can't afford the bills their dogs still have a chance at a good life. This rescue is definitely taking good care of it's dogs. She had personal access to some of the top specialists in the country at her finger tips. 

We are all entitled to our opinions, but sometimes we don't know all that we think we do. I never realized some of the things rescues do, but now I appreciate their efforts. I will still probably never set out to get a dog from a rescue, but if she called me I would help.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Yes, breeders that sell to Petland are IRRESPONSIBLE and are NOT REPUTABLE breeders!! I can NEVER imagine selling my puppies and not know what kind of homes they are going to? To keep track of my puppies for the good and the bad. If a puppy developed an issue, I would never know. How would I better my breeding practices without this information? I am responsible for where the puppies go, not some pet store. What is the reason to sell to pet stores?? Is it because the breeder can not find homes themselves, so they offer to cut a deal with petland? I will never understand this and I can say WITHOUT a doubt, Yes, NO REPUTABLE breeder would EVER sell their puppies to a pet store. END of STORY! They just do not. You can believe what you want, but it is just not the case.

Doing the bear minimum by keeping a clean puppy area and doing a vet check is the BARE and I mean BARE minimum of what a breeder should be doing. So, because the kennel is clean and they have a vet check, they are NOT quality breeders. AND the PRICE....HOLY COW!


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

My Golden is 19 months. The parents, which I saw photos of look wonderful. I have the AKC Certificate of Pedigree Sire and Dam. It is interesting that you say, “ maybe it was a great puppy, but how healthy is it at 6-8 years old?” Listen, no matter where you purchase a puppy, there are no guarantees. My Abby, who was purchased from a well-known breeder with show awards, died at less than 5 years old from DCM. 






Although I obtained my current Golden from a Petland, the point I am making is that to say all pet stores puppies are supplied by puppy mills is factually incorrect, and a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Have you actually watched the videos of Petland breeders that I posted in this blog chain? Some of the responders to my input have advocated hobby breeders as being a better choice. Perhaps some hobby breeders are professional, reputable, and actually know what they are doing. However, there are many out there that simply don’t. The Petland breeder videos that I posted reflect well on the type of breeder that Petland does business with. Do you see what the Humane Society claims that the puppies are being often kept in tiny cages, sometimes stacked one on top of the other, denying them exercise and socialization? Don’t get me started on the Humane Society. They are working with shelters to make homeless animals available for adoption instead of selling dogs from commercial breeders. Isn’t that something! If they can only get pet stores out of business, then they stand to make big profits.

Banning the sale of pets in pet stores WON'T stop the puppy mill problem, just like banning drugs doesn't stop the drug problem. It only removes the necessary regulations to keep both pet stores and breeders accountable for the way they are going about the business. We need to work together to help REGULATE the industry, not BAN it completely, as that's not going to help either the animals, pet stores, breeders, or your communities. 

IT IS A FACT THAT MANY MISGUIDED ANIMAL ACTIVISTS THAT ARE TRYING TO STOP PUPPY MILLS BY PUTTING AN END TO RETAIL SALES, ARE ACTUALLY FOSTERING THE GROWTH OF THESE SAME PUPPY MILLS! MANY RESCUES AND SHELTERS RECOGNIZE THIS IS BIG BUSINESS AND ARE IMPORTING DOGS FROM OUTSIDE THE US. THESE FOREIGN SUPPLIERS ARE UNREGULATED FOR THE MOST PART AND ARE INDEED PUPPY MILLS. 

It’s a disturbing trend that’s taken off in the past decade: The importation of puppies from overseas. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are being imported yearly now from countries like Romania, Ukraine, Egypt, and Turkey. The threat of infectious disease, rabies and other zoonotic diseases is real. A dog imported from Egypt to a Kansas shelter, 'Unleashed Pet Rescue' in Mission, Kansas, was infected with rabies! The shelter and rescue systems recognize that dogs are 'big business.' In the United States, they are importing dogs from these countries to meet the public demand and build their profits. The NAIA site has a story from the Puerto Rico Daily Sun about 107 puppies that died of distemper on their way from the island to the New York area. In fact, as many as 300,000 puppies a year are being imported based on yearly estimates, according to Gale Galland, Veterinarian in the CDC’s Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (Sources: NAIA and ABC News 2006). Now that was in 2006! It’s no secret that most of the middlemen in this new import game are puppy millers and less-than-scrupulous puppy retailers. As conditions for commercial breeders (aka puppy millers) get tougher in the United States, meeting the demand for purebreds means outsourcing pup production. 

In reality, many rescues are working to ban puppy sales from pet stores on the incorrect bases that these stores are fostering 'puppy mills', however, they are in actuality fostering the growth of puppy mills in the countries that are supplying puppies to them, and these countries are not regulated!


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Reading through this post,it is obvious that carlswans is going down swinging defending his decision of purchasing a puppy from a pet store. Either that or is unable to comprehend the point being made.

They may not be a puppy mill per se, but, breeders that sell puppies to a pet store will never be quality or reputable breeders. 

The DCM you mentioned isn't something Goldens get genetically. It was likely diet related. So that isn't a health issue others are taking about. It goes to show you don't even understand the true health issues people in this thread are trying to explain to you. The health issues aren't something any vet can tell from a puppy being checked for sale at a pet store. Those vets are clearing them for hernias, worms and other parasites, Parvo... General wellness exams.

The issues are hips and elbows (can't be done till 24 months). So it's the past dogs in the pedigree that need to be shown that have the clearances. 12 months or older for eye exams done yearly and before a breeding takes place, heart by a cardiologist, NOT a practioner or specialist. Also, have the dogs behind your pup from petland ever have litters before 24 months? That would mean they are breeding underage dogs without clearances which is unethical and certainly means they are heading strictly for profit.

These are the reasons that it is virtually never going to happen that a reputable breeder will sell to a pet store. If they are doing everything properly and caring about the did enough to breed ethically, they will never just give their dogs to some random place to sell to just anyone. It's not a gross misrepresentation, it's the truth.


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

Look below, and these are the conditions that the Humane Society of the United States says are, "“A puppy mill is an inhumane dog breeding operation, which offers dogs for monetary compensation or remuneration, in which the physical, psychological and/or behavioral needs of the dogs are not being fulfilled due to inadequate housing, shelter, staffing, nutrition, socialization, sanitation, exercise, veterinary care, and/or inappropriate breeding.” 

So, I challenge anyone to look at the nine videos of Petland Breeders I have in the Blog chain, and show me where they meet the above definition by the Humane Society, which by the way, wants to do away with all retail pet store outlets in the US, and instead advocates for rescue dogs, from Shelters, etc. Oh, there are many more of these videos on U Tube if you care to search them out. 
So, isn't it interesting that over a million dogs were imported into the US from foreign countries last year? 

It’s a disturbing trend that’s taken off in the past decade: The importation of puppies from overseas. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are being imported yearly now from countries like Romania, Ukraine, Egypt, and Turkey. The threat of infectious disease, rabies and other zoonotic diseases is real. A dog imported from Egypt to a Kansas shelter, 'Unleashed Pet Rescue' in Mission, Kansas, was infected with rabies! The shelter and rescue systems recognize that dogs are 'big business.' In the United States, they are importing dogs from these countries to meet the public demand and build their profits. The NAIA site has a story from the Puerto Rico Daily Sun about 107 puppies that died of distemper on their way from the island to the New York area. In fact, as many as 300,000 puppies a year are being imported based on yearly estimates, according to Gale Galland, Veterinarian in the CDC’s Division of Global Migration and Quarantine (Sources: NAIA and ABC News 2006). 

Now that was in 2006! It’s no secret that most of the middlemen in this new import game are puppy millers and less-than-scrupulous puppy retailers. As conditions for commercial breeders (aka puppy millers) get tougher in the United States, meeting the demand for purebreds means outsourcing pup production. 

In reality, many rescues are working to ban puppy sales from pet stores on the incorrect bases that these stores are fostering 'puppy mills', however, they are in actuality fostering the growth of puppy mills in the countries that are supplying puppies to them, and these countries are not regulated!


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

This thread is so humorous to me. The GRCA _clearly_ outlines what it takes to be considered a reputable and ethical breeder. Core 4 health clearances on BOTH parents when they are 24 months of age. Updated eye clearance by an ophthalmologist, and heart by a cardiologist. 

I'll echo what everyone else has said: *No. Reputable. Breeder. Would. Sell. Their. Puppies. To. A. Pet Store. Chain.* Key word here is reputable. 

I cannot imagine a good breeder selling a littler of puppies to a Pet Store chain knowing full well that they won't know that those puppies are going to good homes. That just would not happen. 

Breeders fall on a spectrum. Just because a breeder is not a puppy mill, does not make them a good breeder by any stretch of the imagination. AKC certification also does not make a breeder "good". In fact there are threads that have been recently active discussing AKC and how misleading it can be for buyers to see AKC and think that means the breeder must be good. Simply not the case.

You may have gotten a good dog, and who knows if your dog will ever have problems or not. The thing I would feel guilty of is supporting these kind of puppy/pet stores and the irresponsible breeders they get their puppies from. Again, if breeders are not abiding by the GRCA code of ethics, they are not a good breeder. 

It's really that simple.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

There is just no point...

Again, no reputable breeders will sell their pets to petland. The breeders that do sell their puppies to petland or other pet stores may NOT be puppy mills, but they are not a reputable breeder. That is just facts. 

These petland breeders produce MANY different breeds and do no health testing on the parents. They are not trying to better the breed, they are there to make money and that is a huge downfall to me as a Golden Retriever enthusiast.

I will never support a breeder that is not doing everything they can for the breed. I am not going to support a pet store.


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

Carlswans - are you a commercial breeder who supplies puppies to Petland?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

^:roflmao:


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## littlehouse (Sep 19, 2018)

HollyB: Exactly what I was thinking. This guy either owns a pet store that sells puppy-mill dogs or he's a miller himself. This is the same kind of detritus that's called "alternate truths." 

But if he isn't a miller or a troll trying to stir up trouble on a website where he knows people will react to his lies, then he's just another uneducated dolt who's gonna believe what he's gonna believe and no one is going to change his mind, ever. And there are more kinds of people like him than you'd think. 

I have a friend (or had one, we don't talk much anymore) who told me about these adorable puppies she saw. When I asked her where she saw them, she said at a pet store in Manhattan (NY, not Kansas). I explained to her that those dogs likely came from horrendous, puppy mill situations. To which she responded that she had gotten a beagle from a pet store, and he was a wonderful dog. By the way, that beagle was riddled with tumors from a young age on, and was eventually put down because of them. I explained to her that her dog's illness was likely due to his puppy mill origins. I don't think she believed me, and the really scary part is that this is a college-educated professional woman who teaches at the college level in NYC. So there you have it. Scary, huh?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

littlehouse said:


> HollyB: Exactly what I was thinking. This guy either owns a pet store that sells puppy-mill dogs or he's a miller himself. This is the same kind of detritus that's called "alternate truths."
> 
> But if he isn't a miller or a troll trying to stir up trouble on a website where he knows people will react to his lies, then he's just another uneducated dolt who's gonna believe what he's gonna believe and no one is going to change his mind, ever. And there are more kinds of people like him than you'd think.
> 
> I have a friend (or had one, we don't talk much anymore) who told me about these adorable puppies she saw. When I asked her where she saw them, she said at a pet store in Manhattan (NY, not Kansas). I explained to her that those dogs likely came from horrendous, puppy mill situations. To which she responded that she had gotten a beagle from a pet store, and he was a wonderful dog. By the way, that beagle was riddled with tumors from a young age on, and was eventually put down because of them. I explained to her that her dog's illness was likely due to his puppy mill origins. I don't think she believed me, and the really scary part is that this is a college-educated professional woman who teaches at the college level in NYC. So there you have it. Scary, huh?



Honestly, sometimes the most educated people are they are worst ones to try and open their eye to things like this. People don't know what they don't know and when you have people with high end degrees. they just think that they know everything or that the average person can't know more about something. Trying to explain things to these type of people is useless. And once they have something in their heads or think you don't know something they will tune you out.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The reality is- Carlsban- your dog you may love and find sheer perfection but your dog did not come from a good breeder, an ethical breeder or a breeder who follows the GRCA CoE. 
Period. 
Still waiting on your citations, not sources. I don't have the time or inclination to search for them myself, and I am absolutely certain our interpretations will differ.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

hahaha...https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2163969777193012
https://www.linkedin.com/in/carl-w-swanson-iii-5031461b/


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## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

Commercials are not information, they are sales pitches. You posted commercials designed to sell more puppies. 
You do know that most rescues are non profit organizations...they literally do not profit off of rescue. At all. I also make no profit off of any puppy adoptions and have zero connection to any breeders, so no profit motive when I say that in 20 years in working in veterinary medicine, in two different places, puppy store puppies were always the sickly ones. And not just kennel cough, which they all seemed to have, but entropic (curled in eyelids), elongated soft palates narrow nasal passages, deformed leg bones, misshapen skulls, liver shunts...the list goes on and on. And you counter those decades of hands on experience by showing me commercials made by a for profit pet store designed to sell more puppies, and wonder which I will believe - my own experience or a sales pitch? 

The very first video she says is the "best" but those puppies are not in a home being socialized, they are not being potty trained, they are not being exposed to the things they should be at that age, and they were VERY careful of what they showed on the inside. 

You saw photos of your puppies parents and they looked okay? You can tell if they have hips free of displays, elbows that are properly angulated and seated, good thyroid function, and eye health from a photo? Do you know how often the mother is bred? If they track what health problems the offspring have and stop breeding the parents if there are genetic issues the crop up? You said your puppy is in the best health it could be as verified by the vet (who is paid by Petland, so total conflict of interest) but you don't know that....to ensure the best health breeders test their adults for genetic issues before deciding to breed them. So dogs that have bad hips, etc are not bred. 

Those puppies in those commercials are being raised as a crop, like growing tomatoes. That is NOT what a responsible breeder does.


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## littlehouse (Sep 19, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> hahaha...https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2163969777193012
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/carl-w-swanson-iii-5031461b/


The jig's up, bucko!


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## jdavisryan (Jan 28, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> hahaha...https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2163969777193012
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/carl-w-swanson-iii-5031461b/


I wonder how many other Breed forums he's posting on. Must keep him busy.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

ROFL nice find! Not surprised of this


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Not to mention how utterly stupid that he named his account his name that could be traced bwahahaha


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

Reply to Maggie'sVoice - Reading through this post, it is obvious that carlswans is going down swinging defending his decision of purchasing a puppy from a pet store. Either that or is unable to comprehend the point being made.

*Well Maggie, if your comments are not patronizing, I don’t know what is. You obviously consider yourself better or more intelligent on this subject matter than I. What is separating your argument from mine, however, is that I argue with facts and I cite credible third parties in my arguments to support my argument. You are making accusations without any support other than your opinion. This does make for a very difficult debate about any topic and generally I choose to walk away from the irrational. In this case, I will respond to you, with the truth and the facts to support my position, and unless you can provide me the same courtesy I will have to discontinue the discussion with you and animal rights persons like yourself.*

They may not be a puppy mill per se, but, breeders that sell puppies to a pet store will never be quality or reputable breeders. 

*Maggie, that is surely your opinion, however incorrect it is. What is your definition of a quality or reputable breeder? What percentage of ‘hobby breeders’ that don’t sell to pet stores would you exclude from your definition?
*
*It is a fact that many professional breeders do sell to pet stores. Many pets coming from pet stores can trace their lineage and show champion bloodlines. You simply are arguing an opinion and defining a reputable breeder only by your statement that they do not sell to pet stores. That is a laughable definition. I would argue that if a breeder is able to produce champion bloodlines than, they are a quality and a reputable breeder. There is much more to what I feel a reputable breeder is and I covered that in an earlier post that was very comprehensive.*

The DCM you mentioned isn't something Goldens get genetically. 

*Maggie, sorry to inform you, but you are clearly wrong. Allow me to enlighten you. *

*Maggie, I will present the caveat that DCM is still being studied and we are learning more about DCM all the time. There are many causes of DCM. DCM is often thought of as an inherited disease of the heart muscle, but there are many causes of heart chamber dilation and reduced heart function that look like DCM. Dilated Cardiomyopathy can also occur due to toxicity and deficiencies of the nutrient’s taurine and carnitine. Although diet plays a role in the golden retrievers, Dr. Joshua Stern, from UC Davis, suspects genetic factors might be involved in increasing the risk of this condition within the golden retriever’s breed. Discussing with your selected breeder if any of the lines of their sire and dams were affected by the disease would help reduce the chance of inheriting DCM. *

It was likely diet related. So that isn't a health issue others are taking about. It goes to show you don't even understand the true health issues people in this thread are trying to explain to you.

*Maggie, now here, I agree with you to a limited extent. I think it was likely taurine-deficiency associated cardiomyopathy, but one will never know. Genetics could have been a factor also. This is a Golden Retriever Forum, so with the one breed that appears to have a big surge in this DCM problem – golden retrievers, I believe this is a health issue people in this thread should definitely be talking about and very concerned with. They should also be discussing with their breeder if any of the lines of their sire and dams were affected by the DCM disease.*

The health issues aren't something any vet can tell from a puppy being checked for sale at a pet store. Those vets are clearing them for hernias, worms and other parasites, Parvo... General wellness exams. The issues are hips and elbows (can't be done till 24 months). So it's the past dogs in the pedigree that need to be shown that have the clearances. 12 months or older for eye exams done yearly and before a breeding takes place, heart by a cardiologist, NOT a practioner or specialist. 

*Maggie, I agree with the above paragraph, but you are preaching to the choir. I know this, but you obviously are assuming I don’t. The real question here is why do you assume that Petland breeders do not have any of your referred to clearances on their sire and dams? Not saying they all do, just like I know for a fact that many of the advocated unlicensed breeders don’t’ have them either. I do know for a fact that Petland has sponsored OFA clinics for their breeders. You address what a vet can and cannot do with an 8 week old puppy and you are correct. What you do not mention is that every puppy sold at a Petland pet store is seen by at least two and usually three different veterinarians before being placed for sale. After the sale, I have heard of congenital/hereditary warranties extending for 18 to 48 months from pet stores. These warranties are in writing and enforceable. They require the pet store to pay for the medical costs covered within the warranty. No, not every puppy sold at a pet store is bullet proof but as I shared before they have been recognized by the insurance industry as healthy or healthier than those sold direct by breeders. *

Also, have the dogs behind your pup from petland ever have litters before 24 months? That would mean they are breeding underage dogs without clearances which is unethical and certainly means they are heading strictly for profit.

*Maggie, I honestly do not know the answer to this. I would say that I doubt it but what is most important is that you are making an accusation without anything to support this accusation. You are slinging mud with no reference to back it up. Are you in politics?*

These are the reasons that it is virtually never going to happen that a reputable breeder will sell to a pet store. If they are doing everything properly and caring about the did enough to breed ethically, they will never just give their dogs to some random place to sell to just anyone. It's not a gross misrepresentation, it's the truth.

*Maggie, actually, that is an opinion and not the truth. Just because you say it out loud to yourself and write it in a public forum does not make it a fact or truthful. It remains an opinion. It is an opinion based upon nothing of substance. I have presented credible sources and citations to dispute your accusations. I do appreciate the opportunity to discuss this as it truly bothers me to see false accusations thrown around. Setting the record straight, with facts instead of myths, allows people to see the truth. I am sorry you cannot.*


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

carlswans said:


> Reply to Maggie'sVoice - Reading through this post, it is obvious that carlswans is going down swinging defending his decision of purchasing a puppy from a pet store. Either that or is unable to comprehend the point being made.
> 
> *Well Maggie, if your comments are not patronizing, I don’t know what is. You obviously consider yourself better or more intelligent on this subject matter than I. What is separating your argument from mine, however, is that I argue with facts and I cite credible third parties in my arguments to support my argument. You are making accusations without any support other than your opinion. This does make for a very difficult debate about any topic and generally I choose to walk away from the irrational. In this case, I will respond to you, with the truth and the facts to support my position, and unless you can provide me the same courtesy I will have to discontinue the discussion with you and animal rights persons like yourself.*
> 
> ...


LOL I can't stop laughing. You're a baffoon. Did you even see that Prism found you looking like you had a stroke trying to answer a question from you City council? And then babbled on and finally said there's no definition of what a reputable breeder was!? When there clearly is!

Dude, your a horrible human being supporting bad breeders contributing to losing the quality of pure bred dogs and creating puppies with high change of having a painful and horrible lives. Sickens me!

Also you keep saying "professional breeders", NOT REPUTABLE OR QUALITY BREEDERS. Professional breeders just means they are breeding for profit, not for the betterment of the breed you ninny. Spoken like a true waste of space.


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## carlswans (Jan 6, 2013)

Reply to Maggie's Voice - Dear Maggie, you said above, "Not to mention how utterly stupid that he named his account his name that could be traced bwahahaha." I now get it, you painted yourself.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

The moderators I feel should be stickying this thread. This is golden and should be very informative for people, especially about Petland.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

A reminder all, please keep the Forum Rules in mind when posting.........

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Okay Carlswans, why don't you prove it then. 

1. Provide the registered names of the sires and dams for..oh I don't know, the last 5 litters of golden retriever puppies you have sold in your Pet Store. 

2. Can you give us names of the breeders that you claim are professional and reputable? 

3. Can you link the OFA pages for us to verify that the parents of the puppies are being bred at the correct age with the correct clearances? 

-Explain to us what your socialization protocol is for the puppies. What about potty training?

If you cannot *at minimum * provide the first 3, you will be proven wrong. You said _"Maggie, I honestly do not know the answer to this. I would say that I doubt it but what is most important is that you are making an accusation without anything to support this accusation. You are slinging mud with no reference to back it up. Are you in politics?"_ Yet you have yet to back up a single claim YOU are making. Prove that you and the Petland Chain are abiding by the GRCA CoE when it comes to selecting breeders and selling puppies to people. I doubt you can....or you probably would have already.

We'll wait....


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Emmdenn said:


> Okay Carlswans, why don't you prove it then.
> 
> 1. Provide the registered names of the sires and dams for..oh I don't know, the last 5 litters of golden retriever puppies you have sold in your Pet Store.
> 
> ...


I can't take this guy seriously anymore. The statement he made about my question about knowing if dogs were being bred under the 24 month age that is required to have all the health clearances done is a joke and actually appalling, saying he does not know but doubts it. Means nothing and shoes he's clueless about the breeders. That means he has no idea of who he buying his puppies from. He's not doing any proper research on them. Likely buying the cheapest puppies to make the most profit.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

carlswans said:


> The DCM you mentioned isn't something Goldens get genetically.
> 
> *Maggie, sorry to inform you, but you are clearly wrong. Allow me to enlighten you. *
> 
> *Maggie, I will present the caveat that DCM is still being studied and we are learning more about DCM all the time. There are many causes of DCM. DCM is often thought of as an inherited disease of the heart muscle, but there are many causes of heart chamber dilation and reduced heart function that look like DCM. Dilated Cardiomyopathy can also occur due to toxicity and deficiencies of the nutrient’s taurine and carnitine. Although diet plays a role in the golden retrievers, Dr. Joshua Stern, from UC Davis, suspects genetic factors might be involved in increasing the risk of this condition within the golden retriever’s breed. Discussing with your selected breeder if any of the lines of their sire and dams were affected by the disease would help reduce the chance of inheriting DCM. *


I'm clearly wrong? This is piece FROM Dr Joshua Stern.
"Stern said while some dog breeds are more genetically prone to a traditional form of DCM, the disease is now showing up unexpectedly in other breeds, such as the golden retriever".

This statement from Dr Stern is telling you golden retrievers are NOT genetically predisposed to the disease of DCM. This is the VERY reason he started doing this study. It's smacked him right in the face that a breed (golden retrievers) are getting DCM when they shouldn't be. Golden retrievers get SAS not DCM as a Breed.

Here is the link from UC Davis' site...
https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/dogs-fed-some-popular-diets-could-be-risk-heart-disease/

Just about everything you wrote in this post is so far from the truth it's laughable. Just don't have the desire to go through each one


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## littlehouse (Sep 19, 2018)

Why are you guys egging on this clown? You're never going to change his mind; he's making too much money from the suffering of animals to give a rat's ass about their welfare. He's a corporate ******* who only cares about shoveling in the cash, finding tax shelters so he can wrap his greasy little hands around as much of his ill-gotten gains as possible, and for fun he likes to find websites like this one and torment people who actually care about their pets. 

So in my opinion the best response to this sorry excuse for a human being is to ignore him until he crawls back in his little hole, where I hope some feral dogs find him and give him a taste of his own medicine. I would actually suggest the mods ban him from this site, but chances are he'll just come back with another user name, and knowing what genius this guy is, he'll probably call himself, Fred Petland.


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