# Cedar had the worst tantrum yesterday



## CedarFurbaby (Jun 6, 2016)

I am so frustrated 

Overall, I think Cedar has made a lot of progress. Since he was nearly attacked at 10 months to now (14 months), we went from growling at every dog he met to being able to walk off leash in a big park with me and playing with any dog that crosses our path. And if he has his off leash run/play, he settles really nicely when we get home. He's able to settle down after playing vigorous tug of war and me just telling him to settle down. I manage to take him out to dinner with me and he eventually settles down. 

Then yesterday morning happened. Cedar had the worst tantrum when we tried to leave the park. As usual he rather stay in the park and play and he would lie down and roll around and scratch at his haltie when he thinks we're heading home. He whines and whines and if I try to pull him he just puts his head on the ground. The usual thing I do is either wait for him to finish his mini tantrum and tell him 'up we go!', or i let him sniff a treat and then he follows me. I don't give him the treat immediately but wait till he's walking nicely then treat him. But yesterday's tantrum was WAY longer than anything we had, if I got him up and walking he stopped again and again. And then eventually started biting his leash and jumping and biting at me. I didn't want to treat him so much as sometimes I felt that if he expected a treat and didn't get any then he would do the whole tantrum thing. So he had 2 treats then I just told him we can't go back to the park without treating him, and well it just escalated. He went from rolling on the ground to jumping and biting the leash, to biting my clothes, to shaking my clothes like he would a toy. The only thing that stopped him was that I put my arms around him and held him still. Then when he was still and not trying to bite me, I let him go, told him what a good boy he was and we walked along. So we eventually managed to leave the park. 

If there was one thing that we hardly made any progress on, its Cedar's tantrums. Ever since I brought him home he was like that, he jump and bit at me every time he doesn't get his way. It could be I've stopped playing with him, I've taken something dangerous out of his mouth, he's just had dinner and he wants more, he's looking at me have dinner and he wants some too, he wants to walk left and I want to go right. I've never given in and I keep trying to teach him what to do instead of what not to do. So now, he doesn't bother me at dinner because I tell him to settle down first, and he doesn't make a fuss after he has his dinner because we go for a walk immediately so he doesn't ask for more food. The plan was to change the routine so he doesn't automatically go into the frustrated biting mode. So a lot of those instances I've managed to find a way to handle it. 

Even then, I feel like I've changed the behavior in certain instances, but not much has changed. He still throws tantrums left and right and I keep trying to figure out what it was for and how to prevent it. Today's tantrum (not as bad as yesterday's) I thought it was because he didn't have a nap. He usually sleeps the afternoon after our long morning outing and today he didn't sleep any, ended up barking at neighbour hammering something away, and after his tantrum on his second short walk, he came home and fell asleep. I had to shut my door to prevent him from investigating any noises, and now he's just happily sleeping away. Similar to not having a nap, I find that if the outing goes on too long, its too exciting too many stimulating people, noises, dogs, to investigate, he's more likely to throw a tantrum. 

Am I interpreting it right and does it sound familiar to anyone? Do they grow out of it? We have so many rules and structure in place, sit before he leaves the house, no pulling etc. and worked on his obedience from day 1. He has 3 outings a day now, including at least 1 off leash, and totalling 2.5 to 3 hours.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

If I am walking my dog and he decides he's going to start hopping around and biting the leash and yanking on it, which is a behavior that he will try to engage in from time to time, I immediately put him in a sit or a down until his "attitude" changes, which basically means he sits there until I can see that he isn't thinking about acting like a lunatic anymore. To stop the behavior you don't want, ask for a behavior that you *do* want. Then release, praise, and be on your way. It doesn't hurt to then reinforce a few more commands as you go along, whether it's a leash length stay with or without a recall, more sits, a down, etc. If you've been working on obedience since day one, this shouldn't be hard to implement. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have training sessions at the park, on leash, then off. It sounds like he thinks that the park is a place that he doesn't have to listen to you.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

There is an old saying... never negotiate with terrorist. IMO you worry too much about what he wants and he is taking advantage to the less than consistent energy you are giving him. 

Less dialogue and more boundaries will help. Establish a routine and set boundaries that don't change. I'm not into dominance training but certainly believe in adult/child relationships. 
I taught Sipsy "go to the car". If she had her way she would chase the frisbee until she dropped. It's my decision when we begin a game and when we end that game. I'm not forceful just firm about it. When it's time to leave the park I give the "go to the car" command and she picks up her frisbee and heads to the car. The reward is a ride in the car.

I don't know your history but wonder if you have attended any obedience classes? Trainers can help you learn what you are doing to create the tantrums. This is not in anyway an accusation towards you but it's always the trainer not the dog.

Start this training at home... practice beginning & ending the game. Be firm and keep safe.


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## CedarFurbaby (Jun 6, 2016)

puddles everywhere said:


> There is an old saying... never negotiate with terrorist. IMO you worry too much about what he wants and he is taking advantage to the less than consistent energy you are giving him.
> 
> Less dialogue and more boundaries will help. Establish a routine and set boundaries that don't change. I'm not into dominance training but certainly believe in adult/child relationships.
> I taught Sipsy "go to the car". If she had her way she would chase the frisbee until she dropped. It's my decision when we begin a game and when we end that game. I'm not forceful just firm about it. When it's time to leave the park I give the "go to the car" command and she picks up her frisbee and heads to the car. The reward is a ride in the car.
> ...


That's really helpful, I think you're right about being more firm and not changing any boundaries. Sometimes I am indecisive about whether I want to lure him with a treat or just tell him to 'up we go', or just pull him along, and I haven't really chosen one way. At home we got 'settle down' really good, so if I wanted to end the game I would tell him to settle down. We do that every morning because we play first then I tell him to settle and I get some stuff ready. Settle down is something I've been really firm on, because I often really need it to happen, like I need him to not jump on my visitors and I need him to stop trying to steal the food that the waitress is bringing. Perhaps because I always insisted he settle down when I tell him so, that he's fairly reliable at it now.

Yeah I don't know what I'm doing to reinforce the tantrums, probably being indecisive about how to handle it is one thing. Perhaps when we are outside, I can't stop the behavior quick enough, and the more he bites the more it escalates. Whereas at home I just remove myself for a few seconds and then he's fine after. I asked about it at obedience class today and the trainer suggested bringing a squeaky ball so that leaving the park means having fun with a squeaky ball rather than leaving the park means no more fun. So I'll try that. I noticed that if he had a tantrum about X yesterday, he is likely to repeat it the next day, it doesn't matter if we've never had an issue with X for months. The trainer also suggested a new game for us, to catch a treat, and I haven't taught him anything new for a few weeks now, so that will be something to occupy him.

I think I just felt so disappointed when he was pretty good for a few weeks and I was starting to think he is being so awesome then I have one of these big tantrums.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

It can be frustrating for sure  The secret is to stop the game before before you get to the argument stage. Maybe you could try "enough" sometimes I just say I'm done. Sips wants to play ball 24/7, inside or out. Just remember it takes two to argue so don't participate. Start a game that only last a couple of minutes then end the game, put the toy up and walk away. If he persist just give him a time out. You can also do some down training at home until it becomes very dependable. Then when you get into a power struggle with him you can give the down command and tell him he's a good boy. You will have defused the situation and redirected his attention toward a more positive and acceptable behavior. Just a thought. Here is a video on how to teach the down just in case you need it.


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## littlecreek86 (May 1, 2017)

I completely understand the frustration, especially when you've invested so much in his training! The good news, though, is that because you've invested this much in his training, reinforcing a few ground rules will enable you to get past this. I'm glad you brought the issue up with your trainer, because the squeaky toy as you leave the park is a pretty good idea. I remember a few months ago, Summer (our now 13-month old male golden) decided he would jump up and bite the leash every single time our daily morning 2-mile walk was close to ending, right when we'd cross the road back to our apartment. It was unimaginably frustrating, and also embarrassing as every stopped vehicle at the signal was treated to this tantrum. I ended up having to make him sit and down a little ways before we reached the traffic signal, making a show of finding him a stick to carry, and having him carry the stick, aka give him a job, as we walked all the way back home. Haven't had that issue since! You may have to try a few different things to get him to listen: a) you could use a clicker to get him to stop, and then click and treat for the behavior you want him to do b) you could even put him on leash several times during his off-leash play so that he can't really predict which time it is he is actually going home c) use the toy or a stick to lure him back to the car as the trainer suggested. If settle is his most reliable command, maybe get him to do that several times during off-leash play. But once you have something that works, pick that and stay consistent! Good luck, it will all work out


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Sounds like he is going over threshold, some dogs have a lower arousal threshold. Once they go over it they can't self settle and continue to ramp up as they cannot figure out how to deescalate. Sounds like he has learned how to settle now in some situations but others are just a bit too much. With Boots when he started to go over we would just sit down where ever we were and take a time out. I sometimes set up a crate in places I knew he was going to go over and when I started seeing signs he was getting to hyper I would ask him to settle try and get him to work with me doing some brain games if that did not get him to a lower level I would put him into the crate and would leave him there.

Some dogs don't have the best off switch and have to be taught one. I worked on focus in low stress places teach him to meet your eyes it helps them connect, teaching him tricks and fast heeling backing in heel all things he really had to focus on then gradually began to use them in places with more stressors. We often broke up play times with mini working sessions to refocus him and lower stress. take your tug leash him after some off leash time reward with a big game of tug let him off for five minutes repeat. He is probably figuring out as soon as the leash goes on fun is over and he starts to escalate putting mini sessions in mixes with fun will help. There are some good articles about dogs with low arousal threshold if you google them but each dog needs to have it tailored to your lifestyle and their needs so you may need to try a variety of things. It sounds like at home your finding the key there so you just need to work on solutions for those high impact places and a park is high impact. Lots of input not a lot of ways for his mind to relax but with time and some effort you can definitely teach them how to cope. Blitz also has a lower threshold but he is learning to how to control impulses and not overload. There are good games for impulse control and those help too.


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## CedarFurbaby (Jun 6, 2016)

I've been thinking about Cedar a lot, and I am beginning to agree that he is going over a threshold. When he was younger, almost everything resulted in a fit of biting, or zoomies of some sort. Some memorable ones were the first time he played with water and the first time he couldn't figure out a kong, every walk no matter how short resulted in a fit without me doing anything, the jumping and biting was random. Now its not so random, I am much more able to pinpoint a trigger, so intuitively I will get this feeling that i got to take him home RIGHT NOW, he's got to stop interacting with this person or this dog, and stop whatever he is doing. Or I've got to give him a job to do now. Some things haven't changed - if the walk is too long, he has to stop and sniff everything and he is much more distracted, won't focus on me, and he will look up at every single sound, to check if its a danger to him. Only a quiet space will help to settle him down. 

Although I said he has 'reliable' settle down, what he actually has is a reliable settle down after 0 to over 10 time outs depending on situation. For the past 3 nights, instead of leaving the room for an extended time, I told cedar to settle down, and rewarded/praise when he did. What then happened was we went to time out after time out (time outs are really short and as soon as he lies down I come back), and it was over an hour before he fell asleep. After he fell asleep he would not wake up even if I touched him, he didn't want to play either. I tried just to check, he played for maybe 2 min and then went back to sleep. 

For several weeks I felt like perhaps Cedar needed more physical activity/mental stimulation, so we went out almost 3 hours with off leash play, complicated training etc every single day. And today he went out a total of less than 2 hours, no off leash play, simple focus exercises, and nothing changed. He acted the same as if he went out heaps, so maybe that isn't the issue. Some of you suggesting leash on and off, yes we did that at the park, which is why putting the leash on isn't the problem, its when we get near the exit of the park and the next 500m is like a 'danger zone' to me. If we get through it, he would be fine. When I think about it, we went every day but he didn't have a major tantrum every day, most days he lies down a bit and then gets up after and we keep going. Based on that it would seem like he's not the happiest about leaving the park but he was actually dealing with it every day pretty well, and then on a small percentage of days he's really upset about it. 

I've tried SO many things with him, but have been so confused because I couldn't figure out why something worked one time and didn't work another time. And it would make a lot of sense if he was over some threshold and so some things just can't get his attention, whereas if he wasn't so far gone, something as simple as telling him to 'leave it' stops his biting. I also tried doing commands and sometimes it works, sometimes he simply did them then jumped/bit after we stopped working on commands. 

This morning we had the same issue at the start of the walk and at the end of the walk. Cedar found something yummy on the ground and proceeded to eat it all up and I was taking it out of his mouth, swopping with treats, and pulling him away. At the start of the walk, we did this successfully, and at the end of the walk we had a tantrum. The walk was less than an hour, and included settling down at home for a short break. So I'm thinking if he does this on a short round-the-block leashed walk, going to the park must be far more arousing. I think we won't go to the park until we can go for short walks without getting overaroused and maintain a good focus throughout. We already do many impulse control exercises, so if I find something we aren't doing, and also relaxation exercises. 

Finally, we are also going to see a vet to check any medical conditions or to rule it out for my peace of mind. One of the things that occur when Cedar is in an overexcited state (not necessarily a biting state) is that he has an erection and sometimes ejaculates. He may or may not have been trying to hump anything. If anything I would say he was in the excited state first, then he started humping, but the humping is not excessive. 

Will keep everyone updated. Thanks so much for all the responses! And if anyone has any more thoughts, I do really appreciate it


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Holy crow. Well I applaud you for seeking answers and evaluating what is going on but I think you're putting way too much mental energy into it. Let's keep it real simple. Cedar is a dog. You are Cedar's owner. It is mandatory for Cedar to do what you want him to do when you want him to do it, regardless of the benefit Cedar receives. In other words, my rules, you're the dog, you're going to do it.
This whole "tantrum" thing is just a bit ridiculous. If you're ready to leave then Cedar is ready to leave too. No more laying down and putting on the brakes. Grab his leash very close to his head and DRAG HIM OUT. Now is not the time to care about his feelings or why he's doing what he's doing, or what other people think of you for being firm with your dog. It will take about 3 times of doing this before Cedar figures out that you are the one calling the shots and being an idiot doesn't get him his way. And then he will be a perfect gentleman and quit with this nonsense. How do I know this? I see this with my boarding and grooming clients ALL THE TIME. I am constantly amazed with the behavior dog owners put up with. Two days into their boarding those dogs are going when I say go, waiting at doorways politely, coming when called, and not dragging me on a leash. It's not training, it's respect. They know if they don't comply, I will physically make them do whatever it is I'm wanting them to do. I'm no huge Cesar Milan fan but that's exactly the magic of his "training" and why he can step in and "Train" someone's dog in a matter of minutes. He's not training the dog to do anything, he's just really firm and clear in his expectations and the dog instantly understands and respects it. 
I think most of Cedar's shenanigans are just a result of too much dog for too nice of an owner. It's hard for some people to be really firm, forceful and direct with their dogs, but that's exactly what this type of dog needs. More love, treats and psychological evaluations just make him think you're even more of a pushover. 
People hate reading my replies because they're not PC, pure-positive, gentle treat pez dispenser advise. But it's what they need to hear and what their dog needs!


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