# Feeling Deceived "Get A Grip"



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm very sorry... 

As you paid $1800, I would be following up and making sure that this breeder sticks with whatever contract agreement they made with you. Principle of the matter. 

Do not argue or fight with the breeder or cobreeder. Hold them to the contract.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm sorry you didn't have a good e-mail exchange. Sometimes people come across in ways they don't intend via e-mail (or forum posts). I do know Julie is very well respected in Golden world.

I did see Julie at Westminster, and it was an incredibly stressful, long day for everybody. I only know her in passing, so I'm not here to defend or attack anybody, but I will say that this week has been incredibly stressful for a lot of people who competed and had to stay for hours and hours in the benching area with their dogs, fielding questions from the public, dealing with people invading their space and their dogs space, getting people to stop petting inappropriately, preventing people from setting flashes off in dogs faces, and the whole nine yards. And then, most had to wait on incredibly long lines for shuttles and even elevators. I was totally surprised by how unbelievably time and energy consuming the whole process was, and I didn't even have a dog in the competition!

So while I'm not here to defend anybody, I will say that two days as an exhibitor at Westminster would probably put me on my back for the next week at least. If there's any time to cut somebody slack, that would be it.

Do I understand from what you wrote that you're not going to let them pay for stuff? I would definitely take them up on any and all medical care they're willing to provide and/or pay for. If you prefer talking to Kathy, just keep talking to her. It sounds like they're trying to be responsible in making sure they handle the financial consequences of the murmur, so I'd personally let them do that in whatever ways they're willing.


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

I think the breeder should have told you everything they knew about the dog before selling him to you ~ period. It doesn't matter what they thought the future held, that is only a prediction. I just believe in full disclosure. 

It's too late now ~ like you said, you are bonded. If there are any health guarantees in the contract, then I would most certainly hold them to it. It's not about the money, it's about accountability. 

I am hoping the best for the results of the Echo! Try not to get too wound up and worried ~ my girl needed to have an Echo after having her heart checked and given a grade 3 murmur...or was it a 4, now I can't remember. The Echo proved it to be nothing and she was cleared!


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Thank You for all the responses., and as far as Julie having a stressfull week. We have gotten to this point over what has transpired over the last four months not last week. It's come to head due to her lack of compassion and her total disregard to communicate with me. Not to mention she has not once shown any remorse about withholding Gus's medical information.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Unfortunately Julie and I had a heated conversation yesterday. So I don't think it's possible at this point to depend on her to take care of any of the medical cost. Kathy had thrown it out there as a possibility not a definite that Julie would even pay for an Echo. I'll have it done and if she chooses to reimburse me then it would be greatly appreciated. I'm shore I'll have other options if she choooses not to.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Julies partner Kathy told me that 50% of Golden pups have murmurs. Make no mistake about Kathy has been a pleasure to talk to and she answered many of my questions. I just find it hard to beleive that 1 out of every 2 dogs that leave there kennel has a murmur and there in the practice of not telling people.


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

Cross said:


> Unfortunately Julie and I had a heated conversation yesterday. So I don't think it's possible at this point to depend on her to take care of any of the medical cost. Kathy had thrown it out there as a possibility not a definite that Julie would even pay for an Echo. I'll have it done and if she chooses to reimburse me then it would be greatly appreciated. I'm shore I'll have other options if she choooses not to.


 I would suggest just sending her a copy of the vet bill and take it from there. If she pays, great. If not, you'll know its up to you.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Are breeders the best communicators? Often times they are not, some times they suck at communicating with humans. You know, they may have devoted their lives to dogs for a reason (like they suck at human interactions). I do believe she should have told you about the grade 1 heart murmur, but she didn't.

However, you now have a bond with this breeder through your dog and to some extent it is like having kids with an ex-spouse, you need to find a way to work together. It sounds like you are able to work with the co-breeder Kathy, so work with her. Don't write off your relationship with the two of them, you will only wind up hurting yourself and your pup. Let them pay for what they are obligated to pay for, it is what good breeders do when they find dogs they bred have health problems.

Edited to add that I do not know ANY of these people personally and any comments I have made refer to my experiences with dog people (including myself) in general.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Cross said:


> Unfortunately Julie and I had a heated conversation yesterday. So I don't think it's possible at this point to depend on her to take care of any of the medical cost. Kathy had thrown it out there as a possibility not a definite that Julie would even pay for an Echo. I'll have it done and if she chooses to reimburse me then it would be greatly appreciated. I'm shore I'll have other options if she choooses not to.


Just be aware she may choose not to pay unless you take the pup to somebody she trusts. That's why you need to go to them first and keep them involved with the process. Again, look at the contract or agreement you signed with the breeder.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Cross said:


> Unfortunately Julie and I had a heated conversation yesterday. So I don't think it's possible at this point to depend on her to take care of any of the medical cost. Kathy had thrown it out there as a possibility not a definite that Julie would even pay for an Echo. I'll have it done and if she chooses to reimburse me then it would be greatly appreciated. I'm shore I'll have other options if she choooses not to.


You may consider small claims court.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Also be aware that this is a public forum and you can't edit posts after a certain period. If you're trying to rebuild a relationship with this breeder, it might be wise to keep personal stuff to a minimum, like judgments about the breeder's character or quotes from personal correspondence, and focus on questions about how to handle Gus's situation most effectively.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I strongly doubt that a credible breeder like this one needs to be taken to court over this contract. Whatever's in the contract is what they'll do, I'm sure. Many people on Julie's level will go above and beyond the contract, though, (like providing free consults with Kathy), and it seems worth building a relationship here in order to do what's better for the dog. I think Selli's ex-spouse metaphor is pretty apt.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nobody should be blown off because someone is busy. They are dealing with a puppies life and peoples emotions. 

If she won't work with you, then yes absolutely you have other options.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> If she won't work with you....


That doesn't seem to be the case here though. 

Reading between the lines, it seems the breeder told the dog owner to keep their shorts on, that they will get to it when they get to it. 

My impression of breeders like this one is they may be caustic and short when dealing with people. It does not indicate a lack of care for the animals or the willingness to fullfil their side of whatever agreement they made with the owner. If I were the owner, I would discuss the decisions with the breeders and make sure they are aware of every move before the move is made.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> That doesn't seem to be the case here though.
> 
> Reading between the lines, it seems the breeder told the dog owner to keep their shorts on, that they will get to it when they get to it.
> 
> My impression of breeders like this one is they may be caustic and short when dealing with people. It does not indicate a lack of care for the animals or the willingness to fullfil their side of whatever agreement they made with the owner.* If I were the owner, I would discuss the decisions with the breeders and make sure they are aware of every move before the move is made.*


 
Absolutely! However I'm sure a breeder with an attitude is fully aware of the owners options.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Absolutely! However I'm sure a breeder with an attitude is fully aware of the owners options.


But again, you have to be very careful about the steps you take.

The owner is more likely to get help from the breeder and cobreeder per agreement vs threatening to sue. Especially as golden breeders all know each other...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I would like the echo the sentiment from Tippykayak above, I think this is an unfortunate situation no matter how you slice it. Feeling deceived is never a good thing and OP's description of the events that transpired would certainly make me feel the same way. But it's worth reminding that in a few days/weeks/months if things change these posts cannot be edited by the poster. Do not post anything you wouldn't want the breeder to read or potentially use against you later if the relationship deteriorates to the point of requiring legal intervention. Just my own personal (non-moderator) word of caution.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> The owner is more likely to get help from the breeder and cobreeder per agreement vs threatening to sue. Especially as golden breeders all know each other...


Seriously. The amount you can sue for is limited to what the contract states. The level of support and financial savings/compensation you can get by working with a professional is vastly, vastly higher.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> But again, you have to be very careful about the steps you take.
> 
> The owner is more likely to get help from the breeder and cobreeder per agreement vs threatening to sue. Especially as golden breeders all know each other...


Again I said if they won't work with them. My original post referred to the op when she said if they don't work with them she was sure she had other options. And I didn't advise a *threat* to sue.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Seriously. The amount you can sue for is limited to what the contract states. The level of support and financial savings/compensation you can get by working with a *professional *is vastly, vastly higher.


If it came down to a lawsuit I highly doubt the op would want to have the support. A *professional* does not go off on their customers. That is if what the op is saying is true.

I have a feeling that all will end well now though And it will be considered a huge misunderstanding.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Deleted by author.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I really don't think this thread needs to turn into a criticism of the dates of birth of the dogs that this particular breeder had entered at the garden...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I really don't think this thread needs to turn into a criticism of the dates of birth of the dogs that this particular breeder had entered at the garden...


Edit: I'm going to retract. Names are spelled slightly differently, so it could be two different dogs. Irrelevant to the discussion at hand anyway.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> Whenever other breeders breed without clearances prior to the age of two, it gets brought up here.


I understand that. I am suggesting we not hijack the OP's thread with a discussion of other dogs. If you would like to discuss it, perhaps start another thread or contribute to the one already discussing it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> If it came down to a lawsuit I highly doubt the op would want to have the support.


Hence my suggestion that the OP _not_ bring a small claims lawsuit.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> A *professional* does not go off on their customers. That is if what the op is saying is true.
> 
> I have a feeling that all will end well now though And it will be considered a huge misunderstanding.


It sounds like the OP is representing his side of things, which makes sense, but he also acknowledges that things got "heated." So I'd hate to impugn a breeder's character or to make judgments about her professionalism based on things posted to a forum by somebody currently in a "heated" dispute with her.

Again, I don't have a dog in this fight. I've met Julie twice, but I don't know her well.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> It sounds like the OP is representing his side of things, which makes sense, but he also acknowledges that things got "heated." *So I'd hate to impugn a breeder's character or to make judgments about her professionalism based on things posted to a forum by somebody currently in a "heated" dispute with her.*
> 
> Again, I don't have a dog in this fight. I've met Julie twice, but I don't know her well.


That is why I said *if* what the op posted was indeed true.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Edit: I'm going to retract. Names are spelled slightly differently, so it could be two different dogs. Irrelevant to the discussion at hand anyway.


According to K9 data, it's NOT 2 different dogs, but I'll leave it alone here.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Nairb said:


> According to K9 data, it's NOT 2 different dogs, but I'll leave it alone here.


It certainly sheds some light on the subject. Thanks.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Please, let's keep the thread on topic. It's not fair to hijack the OP's thread with unrelated discussions that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Apparently it bears repeating, if you would like to discuss that issue start a new thread or contribute to the one already discussing it.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Please, let's keep the thread on topic. It's not fair to hijack the OP's thread with unrelated discussions that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Apparently it bears repeating, if you would like to discuss that issue start a new thread or contribute to the one already discussing it.



I guess I fail to see how it's not relevant, when there's clear evidence that one of their boys was bred at least four times before the age of two, without clearances. 

Offspring of Am GCH CH Nautilus Aljendro

If this was an "English Creme" breeder, something tells me you'd be fine with that being pointed out, with all due respect.

If I had a dispute with a breeder over a heart condition, I would probably find the information useful. I suspect you would too.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> I guess I fail to see how it's not relevant, when there's clear evidence that one of their boys was bred at least four times before the age of two, without clearances.
> 
> Offspring of Am GCH CH Nautilus Aljendro
> 
> ...


I do not see how it's relevant to the OP's current dispute with the breeder. AS I SAID, if you would like to start a thread discussing that issue, please feel free to do so. Or contribute to the thread ALREADY DISCUSSING IT. This is the last time I will say this, do not hijack the OPs thread with this issue. It isn't fair to the OP. And as far as the condescension in the remainder of your post, I will also strongly suggest you tone that down.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I do not see how it's relevant to the OP's current dispute with the breeder. AS I SAID, if you would like to start a thread discussing that issue, please feel free to do so. Or contribute to the thread ALREADY DISCUSSING IT. This is the last time I will say this, do not hijack the OPs thread with this issue. It isn't fair to the OP. And as far as the condescension in the remainder of your post, I will also strongly suggest you tone that down.


I apologize. I certainly didn't intend to come off as condescending. I thought I was abiding by the standards for the site that you laid out for me a couple months back when I was defending a new member - never missing an opportunity to educate potential puppy buyers...many who may be just lurking after stumbling across the site. I later admitted I was wrong, and agreed with you and others. 

I will honor your request to cease and desist discussing this issue on this thread. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I appreciate that. Here's the difference, if someone posted on here asking about this breeder and that issue was brought up....fine, no problem. This is not that circumstance. One needs to remember that there is a time and a place for things. A thread with an upset OP, a dispute with a breeder and a puppy with a heart murmur is not the appropriate place.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I sure hope the op comes back. Then we can address our concerns.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Quite awhile ago a friend of mine bought a puppy at a "puppy store". The poor little thing was sick for the first few months. At the time New York had a "lemon law" for those that sold pups. The store had to pay all the medical costs. Just a thought your state may also have a similar law. Good Luck!!!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Nairb said:


> I apologize. I certainly didn't intend to come off as condescending. I thought I was abiding by the standards for the site that you laid out for me a couple months back when I was defending a new member - never missing an opportunity to educate potential puppy buyers...many who may be just lurking after stumbling across the site. I later admitted I was wrong, and agreed with you and others.
> 
> I will honor your request to cease and desist discussing this issue on this thread.


I didn't think you sounded condescending at all. I took that as a raised eyebrow comment. Which I agree with. I am impressed with your gentlemanly tone in response though. Very classy.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

nolefan said:


> I didn't think you sounded condescending at all. I took that as a raised eyebrow comment. Which I agree with. I am impressed with your gentlemanly tone in response though. Very classy.


Thank you.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

nolefan said:


> I didn't think you sounded condescending at all. I took that as a raised eyebrow comment. Which I agree with. I am impressed with your gentlemanly tone in response though. Very classy.


Me either. Now to the reply you received.....


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I remember a thread where a new member came on and told about their experience with a breeder who did not turn out to be very reputable. A few people went onto the breeder's website and stated everything they saw that pointed to them being a BYB. This (pointing out a Nautilus dog sired litters before the age of 2) is the same thing, except it's Nautilus and not a breeder one would call a "BYB" and somehow there is a problem.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Just a general statment here; 
Any breeder may be questioned on any thing good or bad they may do with their breeding practices. Everyone is here to learn as much as they can on all aspects of Golden Retrievers. All we ask is that all questions and replies on any subject matter be presented in a civil manner and not personally assassinating the character of any member.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Breeders seem to get a pass for being witches-with-a-"b" on the theory that they are so busy, or looking out for dogs, or whatever. I don't like that excuse. Being busy is never an excuse not to respond for days or weeks. I'm extremely busy in my professional and personal life, and I get dozens of phone calls and about 100 emails from people every day. If I can respond in a timely manner, and be friendly and polite, the busiest breeder should be able to, too. IMHO. It's a matter of whether they want to, not whether they can. Even traveling or in court all day, I still manage to respond to emails and phone calls. And there is no excuse for telling a puppy buyer to "get a grip" because he's upset about the breeder failing to disclose a health issue.

And, to me, not disclosing a known heart murmur is a serious ethical breach, and not acting in good faith. It is reasonably foreseeable (to use a legal term) that a puppy buyer would find a heart murmur to be a material and important issue in the decision whether or not to buy a particular puppy. No one can claim in good faith that they just didn't think it was important enough to mention because it would "probably" clear up. I smell a small mountain of BS here.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I apologize if my posts earlier in the thread were a bit harsher than intended. In no way was I saying people were not free to discuss this particular breeder, I was suggesting that we take it to another thread so that we didn't hijack the OPs discussion of the health issue with his puppy and dispute with the breeder over the issues. It seemed unfair to the OP to discuss underage breeding when it had nothing to do with his puppy, as those threads often end up closed. Obviously, as Rob said above, people are free to discuss breeding practices - as we do here on a regular basis. My apologies if anyone was offended.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I apologize if my posts earlier in the thread were a bit harsher than intended. In no way was I saying people were not free to discuss this particular breeder, I was suggesting that we take it to another thread so that we didn't hijack the OPs discussion of the health issue with his puppy and dispute with the breeder over the issues. It seemed unfair to the OP to discuss underage breeding when it had nothing to do with his puppy. Obviously, as Rob said above, people are free to discuss breeding practices - as we do here on a regular basis. My apologies if anyone was offended.


No offense taken. The issue I raised really bothers me. We're talking about a former BOB winner at Westminster, not some BYB. Then to show up at the Garden this year with a two year old bitch with her three year old sire? Wow. 

To keep my comment on topic, I concur with DanaRuns and I hope the OP finds some resolution to this situation. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> No offense taken. The issue I raised really bothers me. We're talking about a former BOB winner at Westminster, not some BYB. Then to show up at the Garden this year with a two year old bitch with her three year old sire. Wow.
> 
> To keep my comment on topic, I concur with DanaRuns and I hope the OP finds some resolution to this situation.
> 
> ...


I agree, that's the most important thing.  And thank you for understanding. We all lose our cool sometimes, today was my day. My apologies again.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Oh my goodness! I'm so sorry you're having this experience. My understanding is that Nautilus is a well renowned breeder. It could just have been a miscommunication at least in the beginning. Sometimes it seems that breeders might be less than patient with panicked owners. I had a fallout with my breeder, but not because anything was wrong with my pup or anything like that. I would have been hurt too if anyone told me to get a grip. If we are grieving and upset when it comes to our pets our social skills go out the window and we get emotional at times. I do get the impression that some breeders high in stature have less patience with emotional people. It doesn't make them bad people, but I do understand why you feel hurt from your vantige point. The two of you are not compatitble. My heart goes out to you dear. I hope you two can work things out.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Nairb said:


> I guess I fail to see how it's not relevant, when there's clear evidence that one of their boys was bred at least four times before the age of two, without clearances.
> 
> Offspring of Am GCH CH Nautilus Aljendro
> 
> ...


I do think this is something worth starting another thread for, due to the evidence.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> I do think this is something worth starting another thread for, due to the evidence.


 
At this point, I'll just leave that for someone else to tackle. LOL.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

It's good to be back to the discussion and to read some of the posts. One post in particular suggests that I shouldn't expect any financial reimbursement unless I Gus's Echo is done by a cardiologist that the breeder trusts. I actually would feel more comfortable to have a third party perform the procedure due to the lack of info already withheld.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I do agree with another post that suggests this is not the time or place to be making personal attacks on people or threatening lawsuits. Deep down inside I know Gus is going to be fine. I hope I haven't given that impression. I'm anxious over the possibility of not being able to neuter Gus or the potential medication he could need if this murmur is more severe then expected.It's frustrating because I based my decision on whether or not to go with Nautilus on reputation. I'm also a believer in you get what you pay for.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am so sorry you have the stress and worry of dealing with a golden who has a heart murmur, and I wish you a great result that it in no way affects his life or lifespan. I once brought home a puppy whose heart sounded like a waterfall- 5/6 murmur, and then returned him to the breeder the next day. They had missed it. They took the puppy to their own cardiologist who concurred with my vet, and refunded my purchase price and kept the puppy to treat themselves. If it had been a 2/3 murmur, I would have elected to keep the puppy. 


I spent the show days with Julie and Dr. Kathy next door to us. It is hard to describe the pressure and dawn to bedtime stress of even just getting dogs pottied in midtown manhattan with the subway roaring under the dogs feet and the pedestrains pushing and shoving, nevermind competing in the show with a favorite to win, as Julie did. She was sick with the flu too. 

I was not able to return my training center phone calls and messages, and now there are more than 100 for me to tackle after classes today, and I am so tuckererd out. I wholeheartedly relate with why you did not get a lengthy response this month. 

When Copley did not pass his elbows, I was freaked out. When his mom developed Pigmentary Uveitis, I was even more upset. There is quickly an impulse to blame someone. However, Mother Nature is to blame.

By that I mean, many pups do have an innocent murmur, and I simply do not believe this was not mentioned to you. Dr. Kathy is a stellar vet. If it wasnt, it was bc in a pet home it is a small deal and they forgot or thought they had told you as they told the other family. No one would hide a small murmur- why? At a wellness check within 24 hours, your vet would find it anyway. 

My assumption is this murmur has worsened, like Copley's elbows, in a way that was unpredictable or unforseen, and now they are going to take a look at it for you. There is no point in getting combative and abrasive online if you want their help, bc it is 100 percent sure they will see this. While of course it is stressful to have a grade 2/3 murmur, the dog is likely to be fine for its life and is more of an issue for a breeding dog.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

You will have to excuse me if I do not seem understanding to the stress of showing dogs at Westminster. I made it clear to Julie when I first called her as I said in my first post that I had just held my first Golden in my arms on my bedroom floor while he was being euthanized after his 2year battle with Hermangio Sarcoma. I do not want to sound combative, but please try to UNDERSTAND it's because what I had gone through with that disease is why I called Nautilus.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm starting to feel as though I might have made a mistake talking about this on this forum. I never had a pet in my life before my wife brought home Benny 8 yrs ago. I was so mad I didn't speak to her for a week. Within two weeks thereafter a relationship began of walks,hiking,camping,fishing,swimming,snowshoeing,ball throwing,sleeping,eating and even coming to work with me that lasted his short 7 1/2 years. Gus and I have already started this same routine.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I admit I do not know much about the ins and outs of breeding and showing dogs. I'm just a regular guy that is in love with the Golden Retriever breed. The next time I write in this forum it will be to tell everyone that Gus is healthy and hopefully post some pictures of our daily activities. Thank You everyone for all of different point of views.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Cross said:


> I'm starting to feel as though I might have made a mistake talking about this on this forum. I never had a pet in my life before my wife brought home Benny 8 yrs ago. I was so mad I didn't speak to her for a week. Within two weeks thereafter a relationship began of walks,hiking,camping,fishing,swimming,snowshoeing,ball throwing,sleeping,eating and even coming to work with me that lasted his short 7 1/2 years. Gus and I have already started this same routine.


 I am sorry that you have this problem with gus, sometimes people on here, come on too strong,to posters.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

You should have been told about the murmur without a doubt. I,had a pup that I bred with a Grade I heart murmur that saw the cardiologist before he went to his new home....the cardiologist looked at me like I had six heads when I requested an echo. I needed peace of mind AND I knew the people I sold him to would freak out when I mentioned the very slight murmur. It was fine and I felt better that I did all,that.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Whoa, I would dispute that 50% of golden pups have heart murmurs. In the litters that I have bred, I have had two...that we caught at eight weeks. If the numbers were that high, I would be an anxious mess... And a Grade II/III could be SAS, but it could be mild SAS. Mild SAS should not shorten your dog's life... All the best.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As far as neutering, one of our techs had a dog(not golden) with moderate to severe SAS. Finally, she bit the bullet and neutered him at three. He was fine..SAS did not kill him, hemangio did at eight.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Cross said:


> You will have to excuse me if I do not seem understanding to the stress of showing dogs at Westminster. I made it clear to Julie when I first called her as I said in my first post that I had just held my first Golden in my arms on my bedroom floor while he was being euthanized after his 2year battle with Hermangio Sarcoma. I do not want to sound combative, but please try to UNDERSTAND it's because what I had gone through with that disease is why I called Nautilus.


I hope you stay. Nobody understands more than us how a Golden makes you fall in love with dogs to the point that losing your dog to cancer is a life-altering tragedy.

Even the people who disagree with you in this thread would cry with you over Benny's story. We put our beloved dog—Gus—down in 2008 after lymphoma gave him a month of increasingly bizarre and severe symptoms, so I know exactly what it's like to hold a dog in the prime of his life in my arms and let him go. There are very few experiences in my life that hurt as much as that did.

Nautilus is very successful and very highly regarded, and so far, Gus is fine, right? So use them as a resource. They'll continue to care greatly about the dog they produced even if you've had some personality conflicts so far. I _completely_ understand why the whole situation is so upsetting, but whatever you can do to bury the hatchet will be better for Gus.

And again, please stay. There are lots of dogs on the forum with murmurs ranging from almost nothing to truly severe, and lots of owner experience and support you can share in. There are even discussions on how to reduce the risks of cancer, training tips for building great obedience and a great relationship with your dog. And, most importantly, this forum is full of people who will get how important your dog is to you.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> By that I mean, many pups do have an innocent murmur, and I simply do not believe this was not mentioned to you.


Gosh, I have had so much respect for the things you write on this forum, but this sentence I found extremely off-putting. I cannot imagine why the OP would come on this forum and lie about such a thing.

And I also think the "too busy" excuse for being rude to the OP, telling him to "get a grip," and poor attention to communications is just total horse hockey. It's just making excuses for being a poor human being. Surely a puppy buyer with a health issue deserves better than what this person got, even if a few of the days are taken up with showing at Westminster.

This all makes me thankful for Gibbs' breeder, who is caring, nice, communicative and helpful in addition to producing good puppies. But with all the excuses I hear for so many breeders' poor level of communication, I'm starting to suspect that Gibbs' breeder is in a small minority. Really. It's just not that difficult to treat people with good manners. Didn't breeders have mothers who taught them about such things?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> ............And again, please stay. There are lots of dogs on the forum with murmurs ranging from almost nothing to truly severe, and lots of owner experience and support you can share in. There are even discussions on how to reduce the risks of cancer, training tips for building great obedience and a great relationship with your dog. And, most importantly, this forum is full of people who will get how important your dog is to you.



I hope you will give us a chance to show you that this is a really supportive group. Please do start a new thread and share photos of Gus and stories and memories of Benny. We would really like that..... There are so many people in the world who don't "get it" and it's important for dog people to stick together


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Cross said:


> You will have to excuse me if I do not seem understanding to the stress of showing dogs at Westminster. I made it clear to Julie when I first called her as I said in my first post that I had just held my first Golden in my arms on my bedroom floor while he was being euthanized after his 2year battle with Hermangio Sarcoma. I do not want to sound combative, but please try to UNDERSTAND it's because what I had gone through with that disease is why I called Nautilus.


Not only do I empathize with you, I share my tears with yours as I have lost two goldens to hemangio, and know that unending sorrow first hand. I hope you find great information on the forum and in real life about 2/3 heart murmurs, and that your pup lives a long, active life.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

This thread has been very hard to follow. Cross, keep us up to date, and let us know how things work out. 


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> Gosh, I have had so much respect for the things you write on this forum, but this sentence I found extremely off-putting. I cannot imagine why the OP would come on this forum and lie about such a thing. Perhaps this is just your way of coping with the cognative dissonance between the OP's experience with this breeder and yours. You simply choose to disbelieve the OP.


I had a chance to talk to the breeder about this thread once she had seen it yesterday, and I have to believe one or the other, Danaruns. I am not just speculating, but the OP is a complete stranger and the breeder is of long acquaintence and Dr. Kathy is a respected vet and lab breeder I know in person. 

I prefer to search for a source of miscommunication, than suggest dishonesty on the part of the OP since I have several times struggled with unhealthy goldens and know that pain, but at the same time the OP came on to discredit a neighbor breeder who assures me she informed him. 

Sooooo. . . I do believe her- not because of cognitive dissonance but bc I fully believe she is telling the truth. 

Sometimes there is a gap between what is said and what is heard in the excitement of buying a puppy. 

Regardless, I do believe the tone and tenor of the thread should be governed by what will be best for Gus and his heart murmur in the long run. I do not see how a public battle helps his medical story.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> I had a chance to talk to the breeder about this thread once she had seen it yesterday, and I have to believe one or the other, Danaruns. I am not just speculating, but the OP is a complete stranger and the breeder is of long acquaintence. I prefer to search for a source of miscommunication, than suggest dishonesty on the part of the OP since I have several times struggled with unhealthy goldens and know that pain, but at the same time the OP came on to attack a neighbor breeder who assures me she informed him. Sooooo. . . I do believe her. Sometimes there is a gap between what is said and what is heard in the excitement of buying a puppy. Regardless, I do believe the tone and tenor of the thread should be governed by what will be best for Gus and his heart murmur in the long run. I do not see how a public battle helps his medical story.


Fair enough, I suppose. I don't know what happened, I only know what I've read here, and I do not know the breeder(s). But what you read as coming on here to attack, I read as expressing anguish and frustration that built up over time and was triggered by the combination of the loss of a beloved dog to a health issue, the _unexpected_ discovery of the heart murmur, and an unresponsive breeder. Clearly, health was a strong motivator and issue for this OP, and I just think it's unlikely that he would ignore, disregard or "not hear" a breeder telling him about a heart murmur. I think even the most casual mention would have brought this OP up short, and they would have had an extensive and earnest discussion about it right then.

Clearly, this OP is emotional: frustrated, angry and feeling betrayed. He probably flipped out at the breeder, and she reacted telling him to "get a grip." I have found that that kind of emotional reaction is most often the _result_ of poor communication and a feeling of not being heard, validated and cared about. Usually, good manners and good communication can ameliorate those feelings and not allow them to get to the point where this situation has gotten.

But, again, I only know what I've read here.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> I had a chance to talk to the breeder about this thread once she had seen it yesterday, and I have to believe one or the other, Danaruns. I am not just speculating, but the OP is a complete stranger and the breeder is of long acquaintence and Dr. Kathy is a respected vet and lab breeder I know in person.
> 
> I prefer to search for a source of miscommunication, than suggest dishonesty on the part of the OP since I have several times struggled with unhealthy goldens and know that pain, but at the same time the OP came on to discredit a neighbor breeder who assures me she informed him.
> 
> ...


I think it's been established early in the thread, that this breeder doesn't do everything by the book. I don't think I need to elaborate, but I'm disgusted that this has been given a pass by so many. Enough about that.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care who the breeder is, or how stressful their lives are. We all lead stressful lives, and have emails and phone calls to return. In many cases, we would get fired for failing to do so. Their #1 priority should be their puppies and their customers. Otherwise, they should go do something else.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Nairb said:


> As far as I'm concerned, I don't care who the breeder is, or how stressful their lives are. We all lead stressful lives, and have emails and phone calls to return.


For me, this is the most important point. So many potential conflicts in life and dogs can be resolved if we are just conscientious and kind people, and treat others with the kind of dignity and respect that we believe we deserve. So, regardless of how this issue first occurred -- whether the breeder never mentioned the murmur, or whether the OP didn't hear it or disregarded it -- it need not have gotten to where it is now.

I think I will offer free online classes for breeders on how to have happy puppy buyers.  As a person who has to deal with highly emotional people every day, and manage disappointment, anger, frustration and miscommunications, I have been forced to develop the skills to recognize and resolve issues, and keep them from escalating. And what I've discovered is that it's really all about good communication and treating people like they are important to you. It's just putting into practice the things my mother taught me when I was 8.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

wow wow wow. I just read this thread and I am baffled. 

To the OP, you have been very nice and patient with this breeder. 

And I agree with DanaRuns breeders should not get a pass because they have families, they have shows, they have this and this. Yup if they are breeding the puppies should be their first concern. 
I have had the flu and my entire family had the flu. I still went to work and tried my best to communicate with my clients. I had my daughter at a dance competition away from home and office and still was able to communicate with a client who had an emergency.
I also do not buy the "they know their dogs" so it is OK to breed before 24 months but others cannot because we do not know them and they are just not as knowledgeable. What about the code that so many post about here? Does that come with special waivers?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

The OP came here for support but instead people are defending the breeder and he's told that he had probably just "forgotten" about being told his pup has a heart murmur. 

OP, I think your only mistake was mentioning the breeder. I am so sorry about your loss of Benny and what you are currently going through with Gus. Please continue to post.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> Their #1 priority should be their puppies and their customers. Otherwise, they should go do something else.


Those are two very different priorities, and the dogs should come first.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Cross, I am so very sorry for your pain and your present situation. I'm just reading this thread. Please stay here with us. 
There have been times when I got fed up with some attitudes on here and decided to leave for good but I'm glad I stayed because 99.9% of the people here are stellar. One thing I learned from this board is this, I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to, so I don't get involved.

In your case I think there are a lot of people here that can help you through this. I know they have pulled me out of the trenches. Some people forget to be kind, I skip over those posts because unkind people don't deserve my friendship.
You are hurting and you are in a tough situation, please allow us to, if nothing else, be your shoulder. My heart hurts for you.

If I were you I would start another thread and dump this one. That way you won't have to continue to reread unkindness. 
Give the rest of us a chance. We care. Please let us know how you're doing. I'll be praying.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

On the age thing, since it won't die, despite the fact that *the discussion won't help the OP and could easily take place in another thread*:

When an experienced breeder breeds a young stud on prelims of some kind, with a specific goal in mind, it's a different thing than breeding most or all of your dogs under 24 months on spotty clearances. It's also a very different thing than breeding a young bitch.

Personally, I would not take or recommend a pet person take a dog from a breeding where the stud wasn't 24 months and fully cleared. However, when a very experienced breeder does it with dogs that have a long and full clearance history, we're not talking about the same risk factors as a BYB breeding underage dogs with an incomplete history. If you have hips, elbows, and eyes going back 5 or 10 generations, the risks are much more reasonable on a promising young boy. And if you also have radiographs (I don't know if that was done in this specific circumstance), the risks become hard to distinguish from waiting. Since the objection with underage dogs is the unethically high risk, that objection doesn't hold up.

While I personally prefer a breeding with an older stud (as old as possible, actually. You may note that my Comet came from the frozen semen of a stud dog who died at 13.5 with a clear CERF at 11+), I also see a clear difference between people breeding uncleared dogs and an experienced breeder using an underage stud in a specific set of circumstances.

So it's not a deal-breaker but is rather a gray area. A couple of years ago, this issue came up on GRF, and I looked through the pedigrees of all the dogs entered at Westminster that year. I found that there were _many_ who had at least one stud dog bred under 24 months in the recent history. I recall it was around 1/3, but I won't stand by the number because I didn't keep notes. Regardless, it's a fairly common practice among high respected breeders at high levels of competition. There were NO bitches bred under 24 months when I looked, and there were NO dogs who were bred and then failed hips, elbows, or heart clearances later. None failed CERFs before 2 either (some well known dogs have either no CERFs or have failed CERFs much later in life, but none before 2 when I looked).

So I do see a clear difference, and I think it makes for a fascinating topic of discussion *when it doesn't interfere with a person who is upset getting the help and support this forum can provide.*


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

So the COE only applies to BYBs. Thanks. I realize that's not exactly what you're saying, but a breeder at this level should know better. Other than the few puppies they kept, all were sold without clearances on the sire, unless they kept them all, which is not likely. It goes against everything this forum stands for as it relates to responsible breeding. You are often one of the first ones to step up and point these things out to prospective puppy buyers. I don't always agree with you, but have always respected your opinions. However, I believe you are way off the mark this time. 


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> So it's not a deal-breaker but is rather a gray area. A couple of years ago, this issue came up on GRF, and I looked through the pedigrees of all the dogs entered at Westminster that year. I found that there were _many_ who had at least one stud dog bred under 24 months in the recent history. I recall it was around 1/3, but I won't stand by the number because I didn't keep notes. Regardless, it's a fairly common practice among high respected breeders at high levels of competition. There were NO bitches bred under 24 months when I looked, and there were NO dogs who were bred and then failed hips, elbows, or heart clearances later. None failed CERFs before 2 either (some well known dogs have either no CERFs or have failed CERFs much later in life, but none before 2 when I looked).


Unless I am looking at it all wrong, Nautilus Rolling In The Deep, not only came from a litter sired by Alejandro before he was 2, but her dam was also under 2. According to K9data, he sired at least two other litters while the dam was underage. I looked up some previous threads, and the consensus was while an underage sire is not a deal breaker, there is no excuse for using an underage dam. 

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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

The code is THE CODE. Simple as that - I have not seen any special waivers mentioned - unless someone would like to point them out black on white, maybe they were in the fine print. 

This breeder should not be defended for their practices simply because they went to the Westminster show. Many other breeders have been bashed on this forum with info from "strangers".

The treatment the OP received from this breeder and some forum members also is INEXCUSABLE.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> On the age thing, since it won't die, despite the fact that *the discussion won't help the OP and could easily take place in another thread*:
> 
> When an experienced breeder breeds a young stud on prelims of some kind, with a specific goal in mind, it's a different thing than breeding most or all of your dogs under 24 months on spotty clearances. It's also a very different thing than breeding a young bitch.
> 
> ...


This is some impressive mental gymnastics.

We have a code of ethics. You either follow it or you don't. If breeding under 24 mos. never produced a dysplastic dog, that's just pure dumb luck. As pointed out to me about Ryder x Versace pups, having generations of clearances is no reasonable guarantee, it's just rationalization.

I like what you say about using a stud as old as possible so you can see what's really there.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I feel really bad for the OP and I hope all turns out well for her pup.

As to Nautilus, I would love to have one of their pups some day. With a well established and known breeder like that, I would not have an issue with underaged breeding practices on preliminary clearances. I really don't think you can and should compare this breeder with a back yard breeder.

That said, like somebody pointed out numerous times, this is alltogether another topic.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Regarding the underage breeding issue, I am in agreement with tippy that a litter with an underage sire or dam is not my cup of tea. I would probably not want a puppy from a litter without final clearances and would not recommend to someone that they buy a puppy from a litter under those circumstance. In fact, that recently happened to me where I referred a friend to a breeder and found out she had bred a boy underage. I - in no uncertain terms - told my friend to go elsewhere. Again, it's just not for me and if someone is coming to me for advice I will express that same sentiment. 

But it's important to remember that the COE are not punitive "rules." They are a code of ethics. I don't know anything about this particular breeder except that she has a very good reputation and has been in the breed for a very long time. That is very very different than a BYB breeding his/her dogs under the age of two. Heck, it's different than me or Ljilly breeding one of our girls under the age of two.....or any other person involved in dogs who does not have the reputation and experience to back it up (like me, for example). Using a stud dog underage is not something that is done regularly, and generally breeders take the decision very very seriously. Although I have to say I'm hearing it happen more and more, which is a bit disconcerting. But I would certainly not purport to be the judge and jury of a very highly respected breeder like Nautilus. Unless she decides to come on here and explain her side of the story about the dealings with the OP and (if she feels necessary) explain any breedings she has done, then any further discussion of the underage breeding issue is all just speculation. 

I do continue to hope that all the issues with the OP are resolved, whether it was a miscommunication or an unintentional failure to disclose the innocent murmur (I remain hopeful that there was no intent to not disclose the murmur). From my understanding when I've spoken to cardiologists, innocent murmurs are not a life threatening issue. Fingers crossed all gets resolved.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Those are two very different priorities, and the dogs should come first.


The dogs do come first, but the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Just as generally the best thing parents can do for their children is treat the marriage with respect or if they are divorced they should treat the other parent with respect and keep communication open. When a breeder has sold a person a puppy the best thing she could possibly do for the health and well-being of that puppy is to keep communication open and amicable or at least civil with the new owner. Somehow that doesn't seem to have happened here. Thank heaven Cross is not the type of person to take frustration with the breeder out on the ultimate well-being of the puppy.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I believe it's worse when a breeder at this level doesn't follow the COE. They should be setting an example for the others. Lesser known breeders / show people have no doubt take notice of the birth dates of the dogs they brought to Westminster. Many if them may be less likely to follow the COE themselves as a result. 


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm hearing people say "it's different" when a well-respected breeder doesn't follow the COE in this regard, but I'm not understanding how it is different. And I don't mean different from BYBs; I think we all understand that game of Russian Roulette. I'm talking about different from other hobby breeders. How can a well-respected breeder have any more confidence that a particular stud or bitch will pass clearances at 24 months than any other breeder can, when even the most well-respected scientists can't explain or predict expression of HD or ED? I'm certainly open to learning how it's different, but boy, I sure can't figure out how it can be.

It seems to me that the day there is a breeder who can accurately predict which dogs will and will not pass clearances before they actually do is the day that HD and ED can be eliminated from the breed. Until then, I think everyone should be held to the same standard on the code of ETHICS. It's not a set of rules, it's a set of ethics. Rules are made to be broken. Ethics are not. At least, that's what the State Bar keeps telling me.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

IMHO length of breeding is not a waiver for breaking the code, at least I have not seen it anywhere. 

If breaking the code makes someone a BYB then this is where this breeder should be put as well. By stating that it is disconcerting but it is not punitive and some should be handled with gloves when they do it while others should be marked as BYBs shows impartiality. 

IMHO the breeding practices of a breeder goes hand in hand with the treatment the OP has received fro the said breeder and the avoidance that was pushed on this forum to not talk about it is disconcerting.
What I also do find disconcerting is the treatment the OP has received by a moderator calling him/her in so many words a confused stranger and defending a breeder who to my knowledge is not even a forum member. 
Now you can go ahead and give me an infraction or whatever you deem necessary. So many have left the forum for the same reasons Bentleysmom has said above. It so seems that the rules do not apply to the moderators who call people mean, misguided strangers publicly.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> I'm hearing people say "it's different" when a well-respected breeder doesn't follow the COE in this regard, but I'm not understanding how it is different. And I don't mean different from BYBs; I think we all understand that game of Russian Roulette. I'm talking about different from other hobby breeders. How can a well-respected breeder have any more confidence that a particular stud or bitch will pass clearances at 24 months than any other breeder can, when even the most well-respected scientists can't explain or predict expression of HD or ED?
> 
> The day there is a breeder who can accurately predict which dogs will and will not pass clearances before they actually do is the day that HD and ED can be eliminated from the breed. Until then, I think everyone should be held to the same standard on the code of ETHICS. It's not a set of rules, it's a set of ethics. Rules are made to be broken. Ethics are not.


Personally, for me and my dogs, I definitely hold everyone to the same standard. I would not want a puppy from an underage breeding. And I would not breed a dog underage. But I am aware that some well respected breeders may breed an underage stud dog on occasion in very specific circumstances. That is very different from breeding a dam underage, IMO, which I don't think I've ever heard a reason that convinced me it was necessary for any reason. Again, it's not for me....I don't like it when anyone does it, but I try not to pass judgment on someone with many many more years of experience in the breed.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If the murmur is now Grade II/III it is no longer considered innocent. I am speaking from personal experience with a cardiologist .


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Hey all, in case anyone would like to have a general discussion about underage breeding I started a new thread here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...sion/143338-underage-breeding-discussion.html


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

:hijacked:

I agree with goldenjackpuppy. This thread has been thoroughly hijacked now.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I started a new thread on the Main Discussion board.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Cross said:


> *You will have to excuse me if I do not seem understanding to the stress of showing dogs at Westminster.* I made it clear to Julie when I first called her as I said in my first post that I had just held my first Golden in my arms on my bedroom floor while he was being euthanized after his 2year battle with Hermangio Sarcoma. I do not want to sound combative, but please try to UNDERSTAND it's because what I had gone through with that disease is why I called Nautilus.


Actually you seem more understanding than I would LOL!. Lame excuse IMHO. I hope you find a good cardiologist and everything works out for you and your new furbaby!


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Hello everyone. It has been 3 months since I last chatted on this forum. Unfortunatly I come back with bad news. Gus is now 11 months, he had is Echo done yesterday and it is confirmed he has Ring S.A.S.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I'mk having some good communication with the breeder. I would also love some feedback on this and maybe what I should expect.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Is it considered mild, moderate, or severe? Mild SAS should not be life altering...one of our techs had a boxer with moderate to severe SAS, he lived to 8.5 years, but died due to hemangiosarcoma.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes, what grade did the cardiologist say the SAS was? There should be a grading on the report. My eldest girl whom I lost over the winter had a Grade I SAS. It never affected her energy or quality of life. She was running and playing with my puppy on the evening she died. She actually passed from splenic hemangio at 2 months shy of her 11th birthday. Even at a Grade II, you should not notice significant impact on energy etc. Grade III and above would require more monitoring and care.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

The mumur is being called a three and the level is considered moderate. The fact that he is in his 11th month is a bit concerning because he is obviously still growing. My hope is that it doesn't change when we go back in 4 months.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I need an education on some of these numbers. Gus' report alos says 2-3/6 murmur right 4th at sternum, 2/6 systolic murmur at each carotid and 81mm.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Cross said:


> I need an education on some of these numbers. Gus' report alos says 2-3/6 murmur right 4th at sternum, 2/6 systolic murmur at each carotid and 81mm.


Welcome back to the Forum. 

I'm so sorry that you don't have better news about Gus.

I also encourage you to start a new thread about his condition in the Health forum, where the discussion may be more focused on the issues you want to understand. That's here: Golden Retriever Health, Anatomy, Physiology & Breed Standard - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums.

Make sure your thread title mentions the heart murmur so the people you need to respond recognize the issue.

Good luck!


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## Mrfoster (May 26, 2013)

*Heart murmur*

Hi,

I'm so sorry for you about your experience with that breeder, it's all very sad, and very unprofessional. If I was you, i would consider reporting that breeder to the Canadian Kennel Club or the American Kennel Club, as an irresponsible breeder. I guess that if you paid $1800 for the puppy, it must be a registered dog, and the breeder must meet some criterias to br recognized by the CKC or the AKC.

Your bond with Gus must have been instantly, as we love these goldens so much. I think that posting your comment on this forum was a smart thing to do, it doesn't give that breeder very good publicity, and that's perfect !

Good luck with Gus !


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks for the advise, I just faxed over a ten page letter to the AKC.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

AKC does not govern health clearances... They would accept a golden litter registration from two underage dogs. Heart murmurs are graded by how loud they are. So a Grade1/6 is very soft and 2-3/6 is significantly louder. In general, the louder the murmur is the more serious it is. What is more telling is when they measure the gradients over the aorta and come up with moderate SAS. I have heard SAS termed mild, moderate, or severe. Obviously, what will be telling is how things are at the next recheck. Does the breeder know that it is moderate SAS? And remember even reputable breeders end up with some less than perfect pups they produce. I guess it is all in how it is handled afterwards.


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## problemcat (Apr 4, 2013)

Mrfoster said:


> If I was you, i would consider reporting that breeder to the Canadian Kennel Club or the American Kennel Club, as an irresponsible breeder. I guess that if you paid $1800 for the puppy, it must be a registered dog





Cross said:


> Thanks for the advise, I just faxed over a ten page letter to the AKC.





Sally's Mom said:


> Does the breeder know that it is moderate SAS? And remember even reputable breeders end up with some less than perfect pups they produce. I guess it is all in how it is handled afterwards.


Cross, I hesitate to post anything on this thread, but after the comments I quoted, I have a suggestion. See, I'm a soon-to-be golden owner who has spent hours and hours on end pouring over pedigrees and health records of various breeders, trying to find genetics that will stack the odds in my favor of owning a healthy dog with great longevity (isn't that everyone's desire?). And, I have noticed that health issues are very rarely reported in offspring of "well-bred" litters. So, maybe you should enter your puppy's pedigree and this major health problem on K9Data.com.

I used that website extensively while searching for a reputable breeder. A record like yours would be extremely helpful to those who (like me, recently) are searching for a healthy puppy. It would at least raise a red flag for potential new puppy owners that this pairing should be scrutinized closely. It would also potentially help owners of other puppies from the same litter who might find themselves facing a similar situation down the road.

Meanwhile, I'm sorry you're going through this with Gus. I pray that as he grows things go in a very positive direction.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks I'll look into that K9Data. As far as the breeder knowing the severity of the SAS. I'm really not sure. I told her about it when I walked out of the Cardiologists office. She denied ever knowing anything about the murmur and told me she would call me back. That was last Monday the 10th. and I still havn't heard from her. Her life partner who has nothing to do with the buisness called me with remorse and told me that she never thought it would get worse, she fully expected it to go away.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I'm coming on this forum hoping to hear miracle stories about Goldens with SAS. I'm also on here because I still feel deceived and I'm angry at the breeder's refusal to accept any responsibility. My Benny will be gone 1 year on Thursday the 20th. I could never have imagined I would be going through this anxiety with Gus on Benny's 1 year anniversary of his death. I still can't get my hands around the fact that they allowed me to come pick up a puppy without telling me about a murmur they new he had.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Cross said:


> I'm coming on this forum hoping to hear miracle stories about Goldens with SAS. I'm also on here because I still feel deceived and I'm angry at the breeder's refusal to accept any responsibility. My Benny will be gone 1 year on Thursday the 20th. I could never have imagined I would be going through this anxiety with Gus on Benny's 1 year anniversary of his death. I still can't get my hands around the fact that they allowed me to come pick up a puppy without telling me about a murmur they new he had.


As I suggested earlier, you are more likely to hear about Goldens with SAS if you create another thread in the health forum asking for information on that subject. I so hope that you find some good news for little Gus.

I also hope the breeder gets back to you. May 10 was only yesterday, so she may be trying to figure out what to do. I don't know the breeder and I'm not defending her, but sometimes people need a little more time to respond than we'd like, especially when we're upset.

Good luck!


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

sorry my mistake June 3rd wrong Monday on my calendar. It's been 8 days.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If you want to complain, there is the Better Business Bureau..and Google reviews. I understand your pain and anger. But when living things reproduce there are no guarantees. If someone had told me that my first son would have autism and mental retardation, coming from a family of high achievers, I would have said , "no thanks". However I would not trade my son for any son and I truly believe that sometime things happen for a reason. SAS is not congenital, ie they are not born with it. It can take up to a year to show up in dogs(and some believe even later). Were both parents clear of SAS? Years ago, there was an article in the GRCA News with a well respected breeder who admitted that she bred a pup that had SAS. Never had another one. I am truly not defending your breeder who sometimes when we are at the same show, she is not very pleasant to me. But I am here to say that even the most perfect breeder who crosses all T's and dots all I's can have hereditary issues.


I had a pup with a soft Grade 1 murmur. I took him to the cardiologist before I sold him. The cardiologist tried to talk me out of the echo. I insisted. He did not have SAS at that time at 8 weeks. But, to be sure you have to check to one year. Well, he is still alive at nine, and his half brother will celebrate his 11th birthday this Friday...


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Of course I understand there are no gaurantees with the health of any domestic pet. It wasn't the breeders fault for my last Golden's cancer and it's no fault of Nautilus for this murmur. It's cut and dry, they new about a murmur and made a choice to not tell me about it.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Hello everyone. It's obviously been a while since I've wrote in. I wanted to share my results of the problem I've had with this breeder (Nautilus). After our second time in small claims court the magistrate came back with his decision this week. I basically lost. Nautilus will not be required to have any financial obligation towards the care for Gus's SAS. It was explained to me that by not accepting Nautilus's offer of giving him back with a full refund. I should expect nothing. Unfortunatly Ms. Mckinnon stood in the court room and told the magistrate that she had told me about his murmur over the phone and she also told my wife about the murmur in her basement while they were alone sigining the contract. The offer the magistrate is speaking of was presented to me by a lawyer two weeks before our court date. Not that it mattered she could of asked for him back as soon as we brought Gus home and it would have been to late. While in court I asked Ms. Mckinnnon several times if she was lying about telling us about the mumur before we came to get Gus. Her answer was no, "I am not lying". Not once did Ms. Mckinnon ask me if I was lying about having knowledge about a murmur before picking up Gus. After all I went through with my other Golden Benny, Ms. Mckinnon is suggesting that I agreed to purchas a dog with a known medical defect for $1800 but more significant than the money, the potential heart ache.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

On a brighter note Gus is doing great. He was able to be neudered, which was very stressfull. He takes a half of Atenol in the morning and a half at night.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm sorry for all you have gone through. I know of someone who had surgery done for SAS. She is fortunate and has the resources to do it. Her dog is doing well. I hope you have lots of good days ahead with your guy.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Thank You for the kind words.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Cross said:


> Hello everyone. It's obviously been a while since I've wrote in. I wanted to share my results of the problem I've had with this breeder (Nautilus). After our second time in small claims court the magistrate came back with his decision this week. I basically lost. Nautilus will not be required to have any financial obligation towards the care for Gus's SAS. It was explained to me that by not accepting Nautilus's offer of giving him back with a full refund. I should expect nothing. Unfortunatly Ms. Mckinnon stood in the court room and told the magistrate that she had told me about his murmur over the phone and she also told my wife about the murmur in her basement while they were alone sigining the contract. The offer the magistrate is speaking of was presented to me by a lawyer two weeks before our court date. Not that it mattered she could of asked for him back as soon as we brought Gus home and it would have been to late. While in court I asked Ms. Mckinnnon several times if she was lying about telling us about the mumur before we came to get Gus. Her answer was no, "I am not lying". Not once did Ms. Mckinnon ask me if I was lying about having knowledge about a murmur before picking up Gus. After all I went through with my other Golden Benny, Ms. Mckinnon is suggesting that I agreed to purchas a dog with a known medical defect for $1800 but more significant than the money, the potential heart ache.


I'm so sorry you are having to go through all of this with Gus. May he have a very happy life with you.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

You are doing the best you can with Gus, what a lucky guy he is with you, someone that is doing the best for him. They say dogs find their owners, I bet he was meant to be with you ! I do hope the breeder is not using her dogs to pass along this unfortunate gene. Hoping Gus leads a long happy life.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Thank You Murph.


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## Brinkleythegolden (Jun 18, 2012)

Nobody should have to go thru what you and Gus have endured. I too hope he has a long, happy life with you.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I would have given you your money back, no questions asked. What a bad encounter for you and your family. Mild SAS is not a,life threatening condition.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I am sorry for your experience with getting a pup which should have been so joyous. 
I am glad your boy is doing so well and that he has such a cherished home with you

I will never understand why people, especially 'known' people that are out there in the public eye, think that situations like this will not tarnish their professional reputation. Word of mouth is a powerful tool. I know that I think a lot less of this breeder now.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

Just reading this entire thread now. I'm so sorry for what you've gone through! I can empathize with your situation as well, losing one golden to young and then feeling as though a well-reputed breeder has withheld information from you during the purchase of a new puppy. I am very glad that Gus is doing well, though. Everything happens for a reason, I have to believe that. Maybe pups like these find people like us because they might not receive that level of care elsewhere. You can be sure that although you're out extra money caring for him, he will pay you back in many other ways. 

On another note, I personally feel very strongly that breeders with impressive reputations and who are very well-known have an even greater responsibility to act in a manner that is above reproach. These are the people who are higher profile, showing in bigger venues, with dogs that become more 'household names' (relatively speaking) than smaller hobby breeders. Their duty to the breed and their fellow breeders (who they're also representing and who will end up painted by the same brush!) is characterized by the health, temperament, and structure of the dogs they produce, and the breeders interactions with the public- specifically potential/current puppy parents. In other words: the proof is in the pudding, and you're only as good as your worst pudding....

Situations like this one end up making the world a tougher place for every breeder. Situations like this also cause people who choose to own purebred dogs from a breeder to be in the position of constantly having to defend that choice. It's hard to defend the choice and explain to people why you should go to a reputable breeder, when the well-bred pup you purchased is plagued with health problems and dies young- and the pup you get after him also has health problems. health problems happen- genetics isn't an exact science, but part of why people choose to go to a reputable breeder is the promise of lifetime breeder support. I feel pretty confident that happens a lot of the time...but not in this situation, or many others I know of. This kind of thing should infuriate fellow breeders and breed enthusiasts alike- it's all of us who end up looking bad, not just one breeder. In my profession, achieving 'professional designation' is a big deal, and is accompanied by a set of ethics and legal obligations- if we violate them we end up booted out of the association, unable to gain employment, and possibly in court being sued by either the client or the association or both. 

Anyways, that's my rant and I'm out! 




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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Dancer said:


> On another note, I personally feel very strongly that breeders with impressive reputations and who are very well-known have an even greater responsibility to act in a manner that is above reproach.


I agree with you. I just want to point out to everyone that we have one side of the story here, not both. I have no skin in this particular game, and I'm sympathetic to the OP, but I don't think it would be fair to rush to judgment about the breeder.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I agree that this forum is only getting my side of the story. This was my only way to vent some of my frustration. I'm speaking the truth and that's why 7 months later I'm still talking about it. You can't imagine what it's like to stand and listen to someone completely fabricate a conversation that never took place. I still can't get over the risk Ms Mckinnon was willing to take lying in that court room. Especially with a well known Vet (her partner) by her side.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

I wish you and Gus many, many memory making years. I am sorry for what you've had to go through with your breeder. That last thing that need is to feel unsupported when going through issues like this. I do believe that you and Gus found each other for a reason, it is amazing how quickly they steal our hearts.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I agree with you. I just want to point out to everyone that we have one side of the story here, not both. I have no skin in this particular game, and I'm sympathetic to the OP, but I don't think it would be fair to rush to judgment about the breeder.


That's definitely valid. I meant my comments more as a general statement regarding the responsibility shouldered by all breed enthusiasts in general, breeders in particular, and highly reputed breeders most of all. Essentially what I want to express is this: the more admired you are as a breeder, the greater your duty to the betterment of your breed and the education of people with regards to your breed. That's meant as a general statement, and holds true to everything in life: I want to see the 'top' individuals hold themselves accountable even more stringently than the rest- and I expect the results from those top individuals to be consistently better. 


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Why wouldn't a breeder give money back on a pup with known SAS? I don't care what the contract said.. What about good will? And yes, we have the OP 's side of the story...but with all they went thru, why would they knowingly purchase a dog with a problem?


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Been in Vermont with Gussy all weekend enjoying some brisk walks. As far as asking for money back. Early on with the breeder I was only asking for her to cover the Echo and Cardio exams based on the fact that she withheld the murmur. She promised to cover me if the murmur was still present at the 6 month mark. After countless unanswered e-mails and phone messages and one heated conversation, she started to suggest that she told me about the murmur. One point she said to me "I can't even remember if I told you about the murmur or not". It's at this point that I new I was in trouble.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I am glad you are having nice walks with Gus, making the most of his life, giving him the best life possible. Once again, I am so sorry about your ordeal. I can't understand why a stellar breeder would deceive you like that? I thought she would be more accountable about her dogs having unforseen health issues than this.


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

I'm glad you and Gus are enjoying the fall weather. Sometimes people just don't do the right thing:-( The breeder should have stepped up here but didn't. I would not hesitate to tell people were you got Gus and not recommend that breeder she did nothing to help you and I would return the favour.


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## tomw (Jul 9, 2012)

I sincerely hope that things work out for you and Gus. Nautilus has a good reputation and has been around a long time. Lacie, who is 18 months old , also had a heart murmur when she was 8 weeks old and a young puppy. We were not told this when we picked her up. I even wonder if the breeder knew. In any case, we naturally went into panic mode but our vet assured us that this is very normal for golden puppies and it could just go away and correct itself as Lacie grew a little older. And, thank God, that is what happened. Lacie does not have a heart murmur any longer. I will keep you and Gus in my thoughts and hope that it all works out. Sometimes what we perceive as serious health issues can, by itself, get resolved as a dog matures. I am hoping that this will be the case for Gus. Enjoy him and love him and try not to let worry cloud your days with him. All the best. 

(P.S Don't know if you live near Sudbury or not but Especially for Pets in Sudbury runs hour long doggy play groups. I bring both Lacie and Dezi (my 8 month old golden) to them once a week. They are supervised and watched by the woman who runs it and all the owners who are there. The cool thing is that there are about 4 other golden retrievers who attend, in addition to Lacie and Dezi. It is like golden retrieve central. They all play nicely together. It is awesome to see.)


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Goldens are not the healthiest breed, and someone breeding for decades a solid number of pups yearly is going to statistically have a sampling of issues. 

From a different breeder, I received a puppy with a 4/5 heart murmur, and returned him immediately, so I have an idea of what it feels like. I bought a pup from clear parents with horrible elbow dysplasia from a famous breeder of field dogs who breeds lots of pups yearly, and one from a small breeder with pigmentary uveitis and bad elbows. My dog with perfect hips, elbows, heart, and eyes has epilepsy. 

With the PU dog, I didnt insist on my money back even though PU is expensive to treat and heartbreaking. Dogs are living things, and come with risks. I am not saying it is good for a breeder to be dismissive or seem unconcerned with the finances, but to me the dog is on my watch now, and there is some luck attached. Am I very upset my dog has PU and bad elbows? Yes. Do I think it is now my responsibility to cope with it? Yes. 

These experiences left me with a negative feeling toward all three breeding programs from which I purchased impaired pups, but that is human nature more than a comment on those breeders realistically. I am upset for myself, but I also realize most dogs they produce are sound and healthy that go to others.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Goldens are not the healthiest breed, and someone breeding for decades a solid number of pups yearly is going to statistically have a sampling of issues.
> 
> From a different breeder, I received a puppy with a 4/5 heart murmur, and returned him immediately, so I have an idea of what it feels like. I bought a pup from clear parents with horrible elbow dysplasia from a famous breeder of field dogs who breeds lots of pups yearly, and one from a small breeder with pigmentary uveitis and bad elbows. My dog with perfect hips, elbows, heart, and eyes has epilepsy.
> 
> ...


I totally agree; it happens. And it's horrible to do everything you can to guard against having to deal with things like this and STILL have it happen. But that's genetics. It's a science that is not exact, unfortunately. However I think nobody (OP included) would say that this breeder or any other should be penalized or 'thought less of' because these things happen sometimes. If a breeder does all they can from the perspective if due diligence (ie health certifications), and I as the buyer do my due diligence ( ie requiring health certs), that's all we can do. The issue is when one party knows something is not entirely right with a puppy, but doesn't disclose that information. There has to be trust between a breeder and a puppy-parent, they should be on the same team. If a breeder knows something about the pup that could affect whether or not the potential owner wants the pup, they have a duty to say something. It's in the best interest of everyone concerned that the pup go to people who are aware of any pre existing health concerns and who have a plan in place to deal with them. 


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Yes, the above are all valid points but we are talking about a pup here. On the first vet visit he was diagnosed with a heart murmur. The breeder seemed to have totally disregarded that 'little' fact and I understand that the family bonded with the pup and giving him back, was not an option. All this was early on, I do think the breeder should have refunded the money as a sign of good faith, caring and just good business, especially when a reputation is at stake.

If this had happened when the dog was several years old, yes, I agree, I would just inform the breeder of this but it would be my sole responsibility at this point. 

My Toby who passed this year, had hip dysplasia which was diagnosed when he was almost six years old. I never held the breeder responsible for it. I contacted her to make her aware of it, but I never heard back from her. I pretty much left it at that. I did not want anything from her.

But I think this is a total different scenario. 

I do think when a pup that young is involved, the breeder should be held responsible by at least returning the money paid for the pup. Especially with the partner of the breeder being a veterinarian, I just cannot believe that they were not aware of the murmur.
But, that is just my opinion. 
And I stand behind, that I do think less of this breeder now, because of the way they handled this situation.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have a hard time believing that Dr. K let a pup go with a known heart murmur she deliberately concealed. I do believe there is a world of miscommunication, and both sides are angry at this point. I don't think we can be judge and jury without hearing from both sides. 

One very important lesson to come from this is one my grandfather taught me about dogs and horses when I was a kid: do not get attached to a puppy or a horses until a thorough wellness exam is performed. I cried all the way to Connecticut returning my heart murmur puppy and all the way home, but I still returned the puppy.

Pragmatically, when you buy a puppy, you are taking a gamble, one with odds vastly improved by clearances. Yes, a breeder concealing a defect or lying outright is unethical and bad- the pup needs to go straight back there if you have been duped. 

More likely, a puppy has no murmur and develops one later or has a typical puppy innocent murmur that slips through the cracks, then against statistical odds gets worse. Of course if it is a Lush pup, I right away would return the purchase price, but I have only bred 3 pups on this earth. On the other hand, I have lovely goldens with a slew of issues as well as a few healthy ones, and none of their breeders are sending refund checks to my mailbox. If Mystic doest pass a clearance, I wont ask for money back bc it just isnt really going to happen if I keep the dog. 

I don't disagree that an ideal response would be to refund the purchase price and let the OP also keep the puppy but it isnt very realistic in my experience. I think there are a handful of big, large breeders that would take a different attitude, but not many. Tough as it is, the OP probably needed to firmly return the pup and get his money back, or keep the pup and accept this has happened. It is easier to work with a small hobby breeder in this sense.

While I understand the OP's distress, I also understand the breeder's sense she has been rudely treated from word one- it doesnt help a working relationship to get on a national forum to complain either. Even the best breeder might dig heels in at that point. 

The situation is complex, and we have no way to know who knew what when as outside readers on a forum.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

....urrrrgh...Having trouble with my new phone update!! Apologies if my posts look funny....technology


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

I totally agree with CGriffin ( but my quote didn't work ). Was just making the point that it's not specifically 'because' of the heart murmur that this is so upsetting- it's the lack if disclosure beforehand and the way it has been handled since! If the OP had been apprised of the situation prior to purchasing the pup, but went into it 'eyes- open' and with the breeders support, that's another matter. That seems to not be the case here. A breeder can't be responsible for the entire lifetime if a dog, but surely there is a responsibility to a pup of this age, who had a defect before he even went home.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

Before this happened to me. I didn't know anything about heart murmurs or SAS. I've since been educated on it as I was about hemangio with my last dog Benny. It makes me feel good that if there is a family reading all that has been written about this and there looking to buy a Golden or any other breed for that matter. I'm sure they'll ask the question along with many others. Is there a heart murmur present at the time of purchase? I wish I new then what I know now because I would have asked. I will also say it again. When I called the breeder to inform her of what my Vet had just heard on that first visit. The one quote that rings in my head everyday is "Kathy and I heard it , we didn't want to get you all worked up. He is fine it will go away." She even calmed me down and assured me that if it doesn't go away she will take care of it. I would also like to reply to the one sided story argument. I'm sure someone reading this knows the breeder and her partner personally. Please look them in the eye and ask the question. Did you tell Cross about the murmur before he came to pick up Gus. Write back to me when she looks at the floor or shuffles papers as she did in court the day the magistrate asked her.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Regardless of whether or not the breeder didn't disclose the murmur... If a puppy under one year of age shows that it has SAS, what are the ramifications, the remedys, and the responsibilities? I believe the OP came here when they felt they were not being heard by the breeder... Good will is worth so much. One of my friends breeds labs and stands behind her dogs more than most... She has actually paid for anterior ligament cruciate repairs in dogs she has bred...and these dogs are not pups, but adults... Her dogs show in conformation and do hunt tests and some obedience...


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Completely agree with Sally's Mom.. doesn't matter who said what (or didn't), the breeder should stand behind their dogs.. I am so surprised that a breeder with her kind of reputation would just wash her hands of the situation..


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

My Cruiser has a grade 3/6 left basilar systolic murmur,has had it since he was 3 months old. The echo cardiograph was done at 6 months old and the findings included mild subaortic stenosis(sas) and regurgitation at the aortic valve. His pressure gradients across the stenosis was less than 35mm which is very mild. I was told he had a 2% chance of dropping dead of a heart attack,I let him do whatever he wants. He is on No meds and lives a normal life with my other goldens. He will be 7 in March.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I got my first perfect golden due to a hereditary orthopedic issue, that made her free in regards to purchase . The second one had OFA clearances at two who turned into OFA not clearhip clearances at four.. Things happen... Some things take time to show up, but IMO if it is before one year of age, who is responsible?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Cross said:


> Hello everyone. It's obviously been a while since I've wrote in. I wanted to share my results of the problem I've had with this breeder (Nautilus). After our second time in small claims court the magistrate came back with his decision this week. I basically lost. Nautilus will not be required to have any financial obligation towards the care for Gus's SAS.


It seems this HAS been heard in an unbiased court of law. I think caution needs to be exercised in maligning a breeder when due process of law has found her innocent of the charges. If it were a grievous wrongdoing, the court would have decided for the OP. We have a prior case on the forum very similar in the accusations, in which the court found against that breeder and for the OP. 

I am so sad for the OP that Gus has SAS, and I do think some exceptional breeders and hobby breeders might refund that and allow the dog to be kept as well, like Sallysmom but this is rare. 


If nothing else, this is a story too of how essential the initial wellness exams are with a new puppy or dog- the time to get attached is AFTER the wellness exam within the time period specified by the contract. An education piece of the thread rests in this quotation:


> Not that it mattered she could of asked for him back as soon as we brought Gus home and it would have been to late.


 . Most golden pups are adorable! That is why doing the homework ahead of time, studying the terms of the contract, and then using your head before your heart until the wellness exam goes well is huge. I have never purchased a puppy or horse without living in terror of my vet's pronouncement at the wellness exam, and my flood of relief was huge once each of Lushie's 3 babies passed theirs in their new homes.

It is a dangerous game to get on the internet and accuse someone of lying in court, of horrible deceitful business practices etc, especially after the case has been lost. I am VERY heartbroken about the deaths of Lushie's nine pups, and I have no end of blame for the surgeon of the c section; I can get in touch with that same feeling of betrayal/disbelief/desire to strike back and make things right the OP displays. I know I could write 40 pages on the forum of the details. However, I am fearful of writing anything on facebook or a forum they can use to accuse me of hurting their business or slandering them.


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

All I can say to whoever reads this thread is to take a step back and ask yourself. Does this person have some underlying vendetta against this breeder that has made him fabricate and entire story to tarnish the breeders reputation? Did he exagerate the 2 years spent going to an Oncologist for his last dog Benny? He lost in court, so the magistrate must of felt he new about the murmur and agreed to purchase this pup anyway. These are all good questions to ask yourself after reading this thread to form an opinion. Is he just an angry guy or is he someone that feels so cheated an hurt because the pup he bought and who he bought him from considers themselves the best in the buisness. 
I lost in court, because to the court system Gus is know different than a broken TV. If you don't want your broken TV than give it back. Nautilus new I wouldn't.

What really confuses me is that she was willing to take Gus back and give me a refund ($1800.00). But she is not willing to help out with some medical cost.


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

Because the OP lost the case does not mean that the court found the breeder to be innocent or not guilty. Small claims does not determine guilty or innocent it determines if the terms of the contract were met. It means that the offer of refund with surrender of the the pup was an option not taken therefore in the eyes of the law the OP refused compensation. A far cry from innocent. The breeder did the bare minimum required by law.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If I have said it once, I will say it again, if you breed enough litters, you will have the occasional less than perfect pup. Remember bad things can happen to good breeders...


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## Cross (Feb 15, 2013)

I've said it once and I'll say it again. This is 100% about disclosure. This has nothing to do with bad luck or "these things just sometimes happen in the breeding process". This is about a breeder consealing information about a known medical defect. It's about a breeder choosing the risk for a buyer. It's about a breeder not giving a **** about the buyers concerns of a healthy puppy before the purchase. Concerns which were conveyed to this breeder over several conversations before the purchase even took place.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I had a breeder friend contact me a couple months back, as one of her puppies had a grade 2/3 murmur.(she had never had one that grade)always a innocent murmur that went away. We talked about what kind of lifestyle Cruiser lives, his limitations etc, after our conversation, she decided to find the puppy a home at no charge, since the new owners would have expenses because of the murmur. The new owners were ok with that. She was very up front with the new owners about the murmur and left it up to them if they were willing to take her.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Maggies mom said:


> I had a breeder friend contact me a couple months back, as one of her puppies had a grade 2/3 murmur.(she had never had one that grade)always a innocent murmur that went away. We talked about what kind of lifestyle Cruiser lives, his limitations etc, after our conversation, she decided to find the puppy a home at no charge, since the new owners would have expenses because of the murmur. The new owners were ok with that. She was very up front with the new owners about the murmur and left it up to them if they were willing to take her.


Exactly what I would do!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Cross, maybe I missed this but was Gus actually diagnosed with SAS? 

Edit: never mind, found the post where you said he was. 

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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Exactly what I would do!


So after reading all of this.....I want a puppy from Sally's Mom! Lol. To bad we aren't a bit closer........and my husband would kill me if I brought home yet another puppy....lol


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yeah, I think I am beyond my husband's limit with seven house Goldens!


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## Sarah~ (Sep 16, 2013)

Yeah, bad things happen to good breeders but the way they were treated afterwards is ridiculous! I don't blame the OP one bit, if I was treated this way I would tell anyone and everyone willing to listen, especially someone that is considering a puppy from this person, this story! It sounds like the OP was stressed about the health of the puppy before even buying it why would they lie about or "misunderstand" some comment about a heart murmur? If this was not a highly respected breeder I think there would be fewer people running to this person's defense because this is unacceptable.


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