# English vs American-Those Seeking Info



## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

Hi and welcome to the new members who have come to the forum seeking information on the whole English Cream vs American Golden. I applaud you all for coming here looking for information and guidance on choosing your next puppy.

As you've already surmised from the most current threads on the topic, it can often be a contentious and controversial debate with many differing opinions.

What brought you here looking for answers on an English Cream? Something like this perhaps?

That you don't know all ins and outs of English/European vs American lined dogs...you saw someone with a "cream" colored Golden or saw one on the Internet during a search and liked what you saw. You come here to ask questions and the next thing you know you're involved in all the controversy. 

All of us here on the forum, breeder and pet lover alike seek to inform, educate and warn against unscrupulous breeding practices. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't but the intentions are good and come from the heart and soul of our love of the breed.

Do I think that there's too much emphasis on the color debate and the misleading marketing practices of "English Cream" breeders without enough discussion on bad breeding in general? Yes. Why? Because believe it or not, there are scam artists, bad breeders and people who breed without clearances throughout the Golden community from the darkest gold of a field line, to the showy conformation dogs to the English/European bred dogs, to a recent case of someone being sold a Doodle instead of a Golden Retriever and everything in between.

So I think the more important discussion and emphasis should be on proper breeding practices as a whole. 

You should start from the premise that ALL Golden Retrievers regardless of heritage should come to you with the important health clearances for our breed, a minimum of Hips, Elbows, Heart and Eyes.

That no puppy should come from dogs less than 2 years old and with those clearances, that you should be able to visit the breeder and actually have them insist on a visit before they'll sell you a puppy, that they insist on a questionaire to discern your plans for the puppy and how you will care for it. 

You should question and care about how many litters a breeder has a year or at any given time. Raising puppies is a lot of work and if a breeder has two or three litters on the ground at time you should question how they can possibly be getting the correct care.

You should question how the litter is raised and where (how much socialization does it receive). You should care about the diet of the parent dogs and how the litter is fed (remember the breeder has the pup for the first vital 8 weeks of brain development). That the breeder will stand behind your puppy and be a lifeline of support throughout its life.

As is mentioned here so often, the proper temperment for a Golden is vital. A properly bred Golden will be a big mush ball, with warm and loving expressions who lives to please you. They need to be around their people and are always underfoot. They are the worst guard dogs in the world who will welcome a burglar into your home with the same vigor as they welcome you when you come from work. Any deviation from this standard in meeting and assesing a Golden is a red flag. It should also be part of your assessment is deciding whether a Golden is for you...if you don't welcome being surrounded by your pup, loved on frequently, cleaning up after fur (they shed a lot!), investing in balls, bones and stuffies and dealing with muddy paws...a Golden is not for you. Your breeder should be advising you on the pitfalls of Goldens as well as all the positives.

Once you get through these basic and vital steps you need to start thinking about the personality and activity level you want in your Golden. Why? Because Goldens from field lines tend to be more energic and require even more exercise. Are you interested in agility? Then a dog from these lines might be for you. A good breeder will interpret your questionaire and ask questions and might tell you a pup from her litter will not fit into your lifestyle or plans for your puppy. Don't take offense...they are doing their job.

But at the end of the day if you're looking for a healthy, happy and well adjusted Golden puppy as a family pet and you're not going to show or work in agility or obedience, the necessity to endlessly research pedigrees and different lineages is not as important to your needs.

Finally, after all that is done....IMHO it's okay to have a preference in coat and color. Really, it's okay!!! I have 4 four Goldens and every single one of them has a different coat and color. I love and am obsessed with each and every one. Some are from American lines, some are American/European and one is European. They all bring something wonderful to the world of Goldens and to our life.

So I guess my point is yes, you should never seek out a Golden based solely on its color but rather go through all the steps mentioned to separate the wheat from the chaff (good breeding practices vs bad) and then if you have a preference in color, further narrow down your list to those to have parents with the color range you prefer remembering there are no quarantees what color their litter will produce. And remember the golden rule of coat color....the color of the ears will be the best determination of its adult color which will take up to three years to fully materialize.

I hope this information is helpful to those looking for their next pup!

Footnote: I am not in any way negating all the great debates on the forum as to conformation, lineages, pedigrees and differences between European lines and American lines and the unscrupulous breeding practices of those who seek to market Goldens based solely on their color but rather separate the issues for those not as obssessed as we are about those things and offer some hopefully solid advice to those seeking info on English/European bred dogs.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Thanks!!

I love Goldens, and I have fostered and loved and lived with HUGE cream dogs and tiny red dogs (and everything in between) and I can name faults and good things that I saw in ALL of them.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I would add the importance of having a mimnimum of 3 generations with clearances, and also looking at the vertical pedigree.


----------



## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Didn't we used to have a sticky in the Puppy thread about looking for a puppy and breeder?


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Debles said:


> Didn't we used to have a sticky in the Puppy thread about looking for a puppy and breeder?


 
Yep. Still there - a couple good ones.


----------



## JohnTIZ (Jan 9, 2009)

Great post. Informative, insightful, and doesn't push any buttons.


----------



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I will ask Joe to add this to the puppy checkfinder list. It is good information. If you think of other information that should be in this thread for a new puppy buyer to look for please add it. The more informed a member is before buying will hopefully insure less problems down the road.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

"But at the end of the day if you're looking for a healthy, happy and well adjusted Golden puppy as a family pet and you're not going to show or work in agility or obedience, the necessity to endlessly research pedigrees and different lineages is not as important to your needs."


Most of this information has been posted in other threads regarding breeding and buying a puppy, and is good information. However, 
I have to disagree with the above quote. If you are looking for health and longevity, and to decrease your chances of paying thousands of dollars in health care over the life of your dog, it should be important. Without doing the research, or if you simply see clearances for sire and dam when none exist for _their _siblings or parents, and even grandparents and further back, that healthy, happy, well adjusted puppy can be a heartbreaker in the (not so) longrun. If you are paying the "going price" for a well-bred dog, a solid family history of clearances should exist. If not, or, if it is not of high importance to you, please -consider rescue.


----------



## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

Pointgold...I don't disagree with what you said at all in your earlier response. I should have added for clarity going back three generations on clearances. Point well taken. However the quote you reference above was intended for overall obsessing over pedigrees and lines, not at all in reference to clearances which I agree are vitally important.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

agoldenliferanch said:


> Pointgold...I don't disagree with what you said at all in your earlier response. I should have added for clarity going back three generations on clearances. Point well taken. However the quote you reference above was intended for overall obsessing over pedigrees and lines, not at all in reference to clearances which I agree are vitally important.


 
The two go hand in hand, though. You cannot check on vitally important clearances without thoroughly researching pedigrees and "lines".

And when doing the research, there are certain lines (kennels) that if I see them in a pedigree anywhere, will be deal breakers for me.


----------



## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

Again, I don't disagree. The entire point of the exercise was to offer some friendly and welcoming advice to the people who come to this forum and for them not to feel intimated by the depth of knowledge on the forum nor for them to feel they can't ask about English Style or lighter Goldens without the discussion denigrating into an entirely different direction which has happened in the past on this subject.

_And when doing the research, there are certain lines (kennels) that if I see them in a pedigree anywhere, will be deal breakers for me._

Your last post is exactly what I'm talking about. It could be said that with that rationale every member of this board can feel inadequate if they don't know enough to go on K9 data and know every kennel represented in a dog's pedigree. Yes, your vast experience gives you that ability and you use it, great. But as your litters are sold before they are bred, and you breed very seldom, very few puppy buyers will ever have the chance to own a pup that has been so thoroughly researched. So according to your standards, going on K-9 data and doing the vertical pedigree and seeing 3-5 generations of good hips is not enough?

I was attempting to thread the needle between this kind of discussion and a general knowledge type primer on what to look for in a breeder before citing a preference for coat or color in a non-intimidating way.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

agoldenliferanch said:


> Again, I don't disagree. The entire point of the exercise was to offer some friendly and welcoming advice to the people who come to this forum and for them not to feel intimated by the depth of knowledge on the forum nor for them to feel they can't ask about English Style or lighter Goldens without the discussion denigrating into an entirely different direction which has happened in the past on this subject.
> 
> _And when doing the research, there are certain lines (kennels) that if I see them in a pedigree anywhere, will be deal breakers for me._
> 
> ...


 
Not at all. I as a breeder, and most all of the reputable breeders that I know, will do as much research as possible, and that is certainly not a bad thing. And nowhere, not once, did I ever intimate that anyone here was "inadequate" in any way. And, while I breed "very seldom", I field an enormous number of calls from people looking for puppies, and I do take the opportunity to help teach them what to look for, as well as to refer them to breeders who subscribe to the same set of standards as I do.
We have done much on this forum in the way of educating buyers exactly how to look at K9 Data, and the OFA database. GRCA and GRCC members, as well as breeders here from other countries, are committed to education so that the pet buying public can make informed decisions. They are, after all, adding to their family, making a longterm committment, and spending a not inconsiderable amount of money to do so. I was simply adding to what you had stated in that folks looking to purchase a puppy should look further than just the sire and dam - if you read what I wrote, I in fact said "3 generations minimum".


----------



## RBCC (Aug 22, 2009)

A Golden will invite a burglar into your house and show them where all the expensive stuff is LOL


----------



## RBCC (Aug 22, 2009)

*Cerifications in Oregon??*

How many certification should a pup have ? The more the better? John:wavey:


----------



## RBCC (Aug 22, 2009)

I love Goldens I have deep affinity for dark Gold fur and light golden eyes! I wish I could find one. The one I had was the only one! John


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

RBCC said:


> How many certification should a pup have ? The more the better? John:wavey:


The pup itself won't have any certifications  but his or her parents should have (assuming a litter born in the US) final OFA or PennHip for hips, final OFA for elbows, an eye clearance (annually) by a veterinary opthamologist and a heart clearance from a cardiologist NOT a practitioner. Many field lines are also doing DNA testing for prcdPRA, although it is not a requirement from the parent club yet. And those clearances should be present for at least 3 generations back.


----------



## RBCC (Aug 22, 2009)

You are not just getting a dog, you are getting a constant companion who knows when you are down, and they are patient as a adult, puppy lasts about 5 years, easily trained and have unconditional love, give without asking for anything in return. This decision to buy one shouldn't be taken lightly!


----------

