# "shock collar"



## doula1st (Aug 2, 2011)

Ok, my Nook wil not let me search and I'm sure this has probably been asked before. My husband wants to know if a light shock collar or any other ideas would work to keep Darby from counter surfing. She has to know betterbecause she has repeatedly been told "off"!....and physically taken down. Any ideas? She is 5 1/2 months old. Thank you!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Is she being rewarded for counter surfing-ie, is she finding "treats" on the counter top? The first thing to do is to make sure that there is nothing good within her reach. And, don't put her in a position where she has access to the counter when you are not around. Otherwise, the reward (treat) is worth the cost of getting caught. 

I would not use a shock collar for something like this-like using an elephant gun to hunt rabbits. While e-collars have their place and function, I really don't think manners training is one of them.

Once you have made sure the counter is clear, you can try some of the suggestions that I am sure you will get here. One I have heard is to use double sided tape, or improvise with duct tape, and put that on the edges of the counter top. Dogs do not like the sticky tape.

Correct her whether there is anything she can get into or not.

Goldens love food, and counter surfing is very common, and the rewards to the dog are high. I have lost an entire plate of cooked chicken breasts, more than one pound of butter and countless cookies to counter surfing Goldens. I do try to remember to put everything up out of reach of questing Goldens


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## doula1st (Aug 2, 2011)

Well, she usually does not get anything because I push things back and try to keep everthing out of reach. She even gets up there to reach the towel! Then runs off and looks at me because she knows better. I think I will try the tape. Thank you!


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

doula1st said:


> Ok, my Nook wil not let me search and I'm sure this has probably been asked before. My husband wants to know if a light shock collar or any other ideas would work to keep Darby from counter surfing. She has to know betterbecause she has repeatedly been told "off"!....and physically taken down. Any ideas? She is 5 1/2 months old. Thank you!


Just because you have told your dog "OFF" repeatedly and pulled your dog off the counter does not mean your dog has a clue that it knows what it is supposed to be doing or not doing especially if it has been "rewarded" for the behavior by finding goodies on the counter. It is not a matter of the dog "knowing better", since obviously the dog has learned that counter surfing is more rewarding than the alternative.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Just to be clear, the double sided sticky tape goes on top of the counter, on the edge, where their legs and fringes will catch it. And of course, a firm "No" or "Off" from you as soon as she starts to go up.

Good luck, and I am sure there will be more suggestions.


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## doula1st (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you very much!


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

The "off" thing didn't work for Enzo. I'd pull him off of the counter while saying off. Then I found he would put his paws on the counter when I was in the kitchen just because he knew I'd make a big deal of him getting off of the counter. lol He still jumps up there pretty much daily, but not to counter surf. He likes to put his paws up and watch me cook. lol


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## Bogart (Nov 14, 2009)

Dogs are oportunistic my little guy triend to get up there when he was still to small to get up there and I would give him a talking to.
He is also almost 5 months old and he hasn't tried to get up there in a while. 
But he doesn't really try it when we are home and when we are gone he is in a playpen. So I hope he will not get into that bad habbit. 
My older Male Golden has never done it or even thought about doing this.
Cooper is more adventerous. 
I would not use a shock collar on a puppy then just keep the counters cleaned up then you don't have to worry about it.


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## Bailey'sMom (Oct 25, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> Just to be clear, the double sided sticky tape goes on top of the counter, on the edge, where their legs and fringes will catch it. And of course, a firm "No" or "Off" from you as soon as she starts to go up.
> 
> Good luck, and I am sure there will be more suggestions.


Thank you! Bailey is almost 6 months old and does the same thing. We are going to try the tape. My husband wanted to get a shock collar but I don't really want that. I talked him into getting the tape instead.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

You can also booby trap the counter. Tie pot lids to that hand towel so that when she pulls it off it makes a big noise, and hopefully she will think twice about doing it again.


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## mygoldenkids (Oct 4, 2010)

When I was training Molly, my counter-surfer, not jump up, I did the following:

I put a short 4'-6' leash on her. I placed something that smelled really good on the counter--peanut butter, chicken, etc. Then, when she would try to jump up, I would step on the end of the leash so that she couldn't jump. I would tell her "Off." I would then divert her attention and ask her to sit. Her regular collar did not suffice (she is strong-willed and feisty,) so I did use a prong collar for this training. It's been pretty effective, but from time to time, I will still catch her investigating. :doh:

I know everyone says not to keep yummy stuff on the counter, but that really didn't stop Molly. Even if there was nothing up there, which there usually wasn't, she would still jump up to check it out--and in the process scratch the heck out of my cabinets.  They're smart enough to know that the kitchen counters are the area where all food is prepared--yours and theirs. They just naturally want to check it out.


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## doggiedad (Aug 27, 2011)

i use to place food on the counter so my dog could get it.
when he went for the food i would say "no". sometimes
scold him verbally. i also would leave food on the coffee
table so i could teach him not to take food on the table.
once he learned not to counter surf or takes things off the
dinner table or coffee table i started placing food on the floor.
i would make a sandwhich and set it on the floor and leave the room.
a "no" or "leave it" was the only correction i needed. sometimes
i would leave food in his reach and leave the house for a short
period of time. once he wouldn't eat the food when i left the house
i knew he knew not to counter surf ot take things off the table.
like anything you have to constantly teach him not to counter
surf.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

mygoldenkids said:


> When I was training Molly, my counter-surfer, not jump up, I did the following:
> 
> I put a short 4'-6' leash on her. I placed something that smelled really good on the counter--peanut butter, chicken, etc. Then, when she would try to jump up, I would step on the end of the leash so that she couldn't jump. I would tell her "Off." I would then divert her attention and ask her to sit. Her regular collar did not suffice (she is strong-willed and feisty,) so I did use a prong collar for this training. It's been pretty effective, but from time to time, I will still catch her investigating. :doh:
> 
> I know everyone says not to keep yummy stuff on the counter, but that really didn't stop Molly. Even if there was nothing up there, which there usually wasn't, she would still jump up to check it out--and in the process scratch the heck out of my cabinets.  They're smart enough to know that the kitchen counters are the area where all food is prepared--yours and theirs. They just naturally want to check it out.





doggiedad said:


> i use to place food on the counter so my dog could get it.
> when he went for the food i would say "no". sometimes
> scold him verbally. i also would leave food on the coffee
> table so i could teach him not to take food on the table.
> ...


You're setting your dogs up for a punishment. Not nice. 

Anyway. What worked for us was just not having any rewards for them to get. Took a bit but I don't remember the last time either of them have surfed, so it worked wonderfully.


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## doggiedad (Aug 27, 2011)

i don't think goldenkidds and i were setting our dogs up for punishment.
there's no way you can train a dog without some sort of correction.
teaching my dog "no" or "leave it" isn't punishment. have you every corrected your dog? can you leave food around in reach of your dog
and he won't eat it? i can put a sandwhich on the floor or anything
i eat and my dog won't take it. i can leave food in reach and leave the house and my dog won't take it. i like that my dog won't take food off the table or counter. when we go to parties there's food everywhere and i don't have to worry about him taking it. if teaching "no" or leave it"
is punishment i bet a lot of dog owners are guilty of punishment
including you.



Mssjnnfer said:


> You're setting your dogs up for a punishment. Not nice.
> 
> Anyway. What worked for us was just not having any rewards for them to get. Took a bit but I don't remember the last time either of them have surfed, so it worked wonderfully.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i don't think goldenkidds and i were setting our dogs up for punishment.
> there's no way you can train a dog without some sort of correction.
> teaching my dog "no" or "leave it" isn't punishment. have you every corrected your dog? can you leave food around in reach of your dog
> and he won't eat it? i can put a sandwhich on the floor or anything
> ...


You are by far not punishing your dog. People seem to use that word freely around here lol! That is ridiculous to say the least. You have some wonderful trained doggies.

We always made a point to prepare food within reach of both our dogs. We would keep an eye on their body language and as soon as they would try to make that move they were corrected. We also make a habit of pulling the trash can out and put it on the kitchen floor on purpose and put all the table scraps in there within their reach and did the same correction. We started this from day one.
We have never had a counter surfer and they will not even touch the scraps or food within reach _unless_ we give them the ok, although Wyatt is still a work in progress lol!.....I would never tolerate a dog jumping on my kitchen counters......


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## doggiedad (Aug 27, 2011)

to me teaching a dog not to counter surf or to take food
off the table is a part of house breaking. to keep our dog out 
of the trash i bought a small trash can that sits on top off the refrigerator. his kibble i keep in the hallway closet. other than that
there's always food or cookies in reach of my dog. i have an indoor dog
so he has to know how to behave in the house. 



doggiedad said:


> i don't think goldenkidds and i were setting our dogs up for punishment.
> there's no way you can train a dog without some sort of correction.
> teaching my dog "no" or "leave it" isn't punishment. have you every corrected your dog? can you leave food around in reach of your dog
> and he won't eat it? i can put a sandwhich on the floor or anything
> ...





Wyatt's mommy said:


> You are by far not punishing your dog. People seem to use that word freely around here lol! That is ridiculous to say the least. You have some wonderful trained doggies.
> 
> We always made a point to prepare food within reach of both our dogs. We would keep an eye on their body language and as soon as they would try to make that move they were corrected. We also make a habit of pulling the trash can out and put it on the kitchen floor on purpose and put all the table scraps in there within their reach and did the same correction. We started this from day one.
> We have never had a counter surfer and they will not even touch the scraps or food within reach _unless_ we give them the ok, although Wyatt is still a work in progress lol!.....I would never tolerate a dog jumping on my kitchen counters......


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

doggiedad said:


> there's no way you can train a dog without some sort of correction.


While I do think that as a practical matter, most people end up using correction here and there, I don't agree that you have to use it in order to achieve a reliable behavior, and you certainly don't have to use it for every basic skill. For example, while you can stop a dog from counter surfing by correcting him for counter surfing, you could, instead, reward him for putting all four feet on the floor. Preventing self-rewarding (i.e., getting food off the counter) is key to both techniques.

Do you think of "off" and "don't do that" command? Or is it a "do this" command? There's a big difference in a dog's mind, and the second one is often easier to train. We start dogs out learning "off" as a positive way of earning attention (Dog jumps on me, I become boring. Dog puts all four feet on the floor, and I come to life, say "off," and give him the attention he wants). Soon he learns that "off" means put all four feet on the floor, rather than that "off" means "don't go up."

It makes it much easier to keep them from getting rewarded with counter food in the first place, and since they never self reward for it, they never learn to do it. If I tell my guys "off," they know it means to put their feet on the floor and expect good things to follow.

Technically, correcting your dog is punishment. Adding something they don't like (a scolding voice, a collar pop, a shock) in order to reduce an undesired behavior is called "positive punishment" in behavioral science. "Punishment" just means "intended to reduce a particular behavior." When we discuss training on the forum, we often use these terms in order to give clarity to the issue.

But calling it punishment as a technical term doesn't mean the poster is calling it evil or wrong or cruel. For example, I try to avoid positive punishment in my training wherever it's practical, but I use negative punishment (which sounds even worse, right?) all the time. Negative punishment refers to withholding something a dog wants in order to reduce an undesired behavior. I teach leash skills with lots of negative punishment (I stop when the dog pulls in order to reduce the unwanted pulling).

So we all use "punishment" (as a behavioral term) all the time. Nobody trains without it. However, many people do train with an absolute minimum of _positive_ punishment because they don't like scolding, collar popping, etc., and there are absolutely ways to teach most household behavior without it if that's what you want to do. That still doesn't mean that positive punishment is mean or evil or immoral. So be aware that many of us use the term "punishment" as a technical training term with no moral judgment attached. 

However, for many situations (including non-extreme counter surfing), I believe that positive punishment isn't necessary and is actually less effective than many other techniques. I've never yelled at my guys for a counter surf attempt (or collar popped or shocked or booby trapped), but half a cappuccino cupcake has sat on the counter all morning while I was out and is still there in the other room right now. That also held true with the raw beef shanks yesterday afternoon as they sat on a plate on one end of the kitchen while I browned them one at a time on the other end of the kitchen.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

You don't have to scream and yell to give an off or leave command. You just need to use a strong tone and stay on top of it and know their body language.
Use whatever technique you feel is right for YOU and YOUR DOG.
It cracks me up when someone says a certain technique _is not necessary_ but then come back and say nothing is wrong with it LOL! That's a pretty strong message IMHO.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You don't have to scream and yell to give an off or leave command. You just need to use a strong tone and stay on top of it and know their body language.
> Use whatever technique you feel is right for YOU and YOUR DOG.
> It cracks me up when someone says a certain technique _is not necessary_ but then come back and say nothing is wrong with it LOL! That's a pretty strong message IMHO.


What's funny about it?

I don't think that positive punishment is immoral or evil in all circumstances, but I do believe that it's worth working to avoid it. How is that a funny intellectual position to take?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I have had the lovely opportunity to watch two different trainers with complete opposite techniqes and beliefs pratically go at each others throat. It was more about which trainer and their technique was was right or wrong, which technique to avoid etc..... instead of focusing on what would work the best for the owner and their dog. I learned from both of them. I found out they were both right. I combined both their techniques and watched my dog thrive. I was not focused on which technique I should use in order to avoid using another. I used the technique which felt right for me and my dog. In the end that is all that counts.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

A good youtube on solving counter surfing by kikopup


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## doggiedad (Aug 27, 2011)

when i say "off", "leave it", "don't do that", "hey, what are doing", 
clap my hands, etc my dog stops doing whatever it is i don't
want him to do. i know it doesn't make a difference in my dogs mind
what i say because he performs the wanted action to all of the phrases
i listed.

i also don't think a dog can reason enough for the commands to make a difference in their minds.



tippykayak said:


> Do you think of "off" and "don't do that" command? Or is it a "do this" command? There's a big difference in a dog's mind, and the second one is often easier to train.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Dogs do what they practice. We've never has a counter surfing golden mainly bc of prevention. If they don't do it, they never do it. . .If they do it and rewards are huge, it is hard to cure. I would have your puppy drag her leash, and calmly step on it so she cannot get those front feet off the floor. That way, she will not become shy of your hands, and it will seem more like an automatic consequence. Also, try tethering her with a kong near the kitchen while you're in there cooking etc, but so that she cannot jump. Teach her what you would like her to do- lay down? sit-stay? and make that HUGELY rewarding for w while with awesome treats. Like a human toddler, she is too young to be unsupervied around tempting counters, but she can become trustworthy over time.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> A good youtube on solving counter surfing by kikopup
> 
> Solving Counter Surfing- Clicker Dog Training - YouTube


 
I'm just rolling on the floor laughing at this! Obviously her little dog is WAY more interested in her than the food. That would NEVER work with my dogs, they'd grab that food off the table so fast I'd probably miss seeing it!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

doggiedad said:


> when i say "off", "leave it", "don't do that", "hey, what are doing",
> clap my hands, etc my dog stops doing whatever it is i don't
> want him to do. i know it doesn't make a difference in my dogs mind
> what i say because he performs the wanted action to all of the phrases
> ...


I think dogs can tell the difference between a negative outcome for an undesired behavior and a positive outcome for a desired behavior. The difference I was talking about takes place in your head, and it absolutely affects the way you train your dog and the effectiveness with which you do it.

Scolding your dog to get him to stop doing something is really different for your dog than rewarding him for doing something.

Given your explanation of your training, my guess is that your dog obeys your "off" command because he's learned that you'll follow it up with a correction.

What if, instead, your dog obeyed "off" because he learned that you followed up with a reward?

Are those two the same to you? Is one better than the other?


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

It all comes down to training.














This is my dog with left over pork roast about 2 hours ago.











This is my Sunny a few years ago. It was his birthday cake. It is an over sized hamburger (meatloaf size) with cheese as the topping.











I believe this was the following year. Another hamburger cake. It is Sunny and my grandpuppy Tucker.


Food can be left on the kitchen counter, a chair, the coffee table, the floor and it will not be touched unless they are given the ok.


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## mygoldenkids (Oct 4, 2010)

Mssjnnfer said:


> You're setting your dogs up for a punishment. Not nice.
> 
> Anyway. What worked for us was just not having any rewards for them to get. Took a bit but I don't remember the last time either of them have surfed, so it worked wonderfully.



To mssjnfr: FYI--Molly is a certified Therapy Dog and has her CGC. For a portion of her therapy dog test, they INTENTIONALLY put something yummy where the dog can easily get it. They fail the test if they move toward the food and don't "leave it." So, I guess TDI sets the dogs up for failure in their testing. :uhoh:

She is regularly in situations in the hospital and nursing home we make rounds at where patients have food/goodies; she had to learn, even if by correction that jumping up to grab some grub is not allowable. I didn't set her up for failure, but rather for a real-life situation. I don't think there's a home out there that won't have food on a counter or table and accessible to a golden at some point. And, if you have your dog along on a visit to someone else's home, what's to say they won't have something on a counter or table?

My dogs (I have a 16 month old and a 5 month old) are happy, trained, and well-adjusted, and I really take offense to anyone who says that I am setting them up for punishment and that I am "not nice." I'm actually a very nice person who loves her goldens very much and wants them to be well-mannered in addition to cute.

I ultimately think that anyone who is on this forum is trying to do the best for their dog; otherwise they wouldn't spend the time reading/posting.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

mygoldenkids said:


> To mssjnfr: FYI--Molly is a certified Therapy Dog and has her CGC. For a portion of her therapy dog test, they INTENTIONALLY put something yummy where the dog can easily get it. They fail the test if they move toward the food and don't "leave it." So, I guess TDI sets the dogs up for failure in their testing. :uhoh:
> 
> She is regularly in situations in the hospital and nursing home we make rounds at where patients have food/goodies; she had to learn, even if by correction that jumping up to grab some grub is not allowable. I didn't set her up for failure, but rather for a real-life situation. I don't think there's a home out there that won't have food on a counter or table and accessible to a golden at some point. And, if you have your dog along on a visit to someone else's home, what's to say they won't have something on a counter or table?
> 
> ...


I know what the tests include.

There's a huge difference. The purpose of the test is to see if your dog is trained not to take the food. It's not for training purposes. 

I'm sorry, but I like setting my dog up for success, not failure. Putting food out knowing full well your dog will try to get it, and then punishing it... oh, sorry, that word is "over-used"... CORRECTING it... is mean. Why not wait until your dog does it on his own? Or not even have anything tempting to begin with?

Reminds me of my old nasty vet and how she tried teaching her training class. I'll never get the image of her yanking the poor pug right off his feet when she was teaching leave it. Yanked the leash. I'm shocked he wasn't injured. 

But hey, to each their own, right? :uhoh:


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Mssjnnfer said:


> I know what the tests include.
> 
> There's a huge difference. The purpose of the test is to see if your dog is trained not to take the food. It's not for training purposes.
> 
> ...


Yes that word is way overused on this board..........we are not setting our dogs up for failure....we are simply training.....oh what a thought.
How is using a correcting demand mean? Leave.... off.........how in the world is that mean?

Your old nasty vet was an idiot......


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm pretty sure she didn't mean that you should never correct your dog. It's the whole setting your dog up just so you can correct them that she was talking about. If they go to jump on the counter all on their own, then sure, tell them off. But to put things up there that you know they'll go after just so you can correct them?? I don't really see how that's necessary.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Yes that word is way overused on this board..........we are not setting our dogs up for failure....we are simply training.....oh what a thought.
> How is using a correcting demand mean? Leave.... off.........how in the world is that mean?
> 
> Your old nasty vet was an idiot......


First of all. Please show me where I said using words is mean. I'm talking about setting your dog up with a collar... a prong one, at that... and then waiting for him to go for the food and then pulling him down. Yeah... that's some nice training.

Also, for the record:

_Punishment (noun)

1: the act of punishing
2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment_

Hm.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> I'm pretty sure she didn't mean that you should never correct your dog. It's the whole setting your dog up just so you can correct them that she was talking about. If they go to jump on the counter all on their own, then sure, tell them off. But to put things up there that you know they'll go after just so you can correct them?? I don't really see how that's necessary.


You never put treats in front of Enzo and told him to wait?


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Sure, I've taught him "wait". But if he doesn't wait, I just remove the treat before he gets to it and say "ahh, ahh". I don't yank him using a prong collar.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Sure, I've taught him "wait". But if he doesn't wait, I just remove the treat before he gets to it and say "ahh, ahh". I don't yank him using a prong collar.


Same.

I teach wait by holding a treat in my hand and waiting for them to back off.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Never mind


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Sure, I've taught him "wait". But if he doesn't wait, I just remove the treat before he gets to it and say "ahh, ahh". I don't yank him using a prong collar.


I have never yanked a prong collar......that has nothing to do with teaching wait or off.......


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

mygoldenkids said:


> When I was training Molly, my counter-surfer, not jump up, I did the following:
> 
> I put a short 4'-6' leash on her. I placed something that smelled really good on the counter--peanut butter, chicken, etc. Then, when she would try to jump up, I would step on the end of the leash so that she couldn't jump. I would tell her "Off." I would then divert her attention and ask her to sit. Her regular collar did not suffice (she is strong-willed and feisty,) so I did use a prong collar for this training. It's been pretty effective, but from time to time, I will still catch her investigating. :doh:
> 
> I know everyone says not to keep yummy stuff on the counter, but that really didn't stop Molly. Even if there was nothing up there, which there usually wasn't, she would still jump up to check it out--and in the process scratch the heck out of my cabinets.  They're smart enough to know that the kitchen counters are the area where all food is prepared--yours and theirs. They just naturally want to check it out.





Wyatt's mommy said:


> I have never yanked a prong collar......that has nothing to do with teaching wait or off.......


To some it does.

The reason Molly still investigates from time to time is because she saw treats on the counter! I'd investigate too! Just because she got a punishme- ... er... correction for it... doesn't mean the yummies might not be there. She'll wait until no one is around. 

Like I said, the way I trained worked wonders. Haven't seen them even look INTERESTED in jumping on the counters. Why would they? There's nothing up there for them!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Mssjnnfer said:


> First of all. Please show me where I said using words is mean. I'm talking about setting your dog up with a collar... a prong one, at that... and then waiting for him to go for the food and then pulling him down. Yeah... that's some nice training.
> 
> Also, for the record:
> 
> ...


You said correcting them was mean......no your post earlier was about your idiot vet that used a prong collar.....nobody else on this thread even talked about a prong collar......


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You said correcting them was mean......no your post earlier was about your idiot vet that used a prong collar.....nobody else on this thread even talked about a prong collar......


Please look at the quotes in the post above yours. A prong collar WAS mentioned.

And she didn't say that correcting was mean. She said that "setting your dog up" was mean. Big difference.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Please look at the quotes in the post above yours. A prong collar WAS mentioned.
> 
> And she didn't say that correcting was mean. She said that "setting your dog up" was mean. Big difference.


Fair enough about that ONE poster with the leash and prong......but she did say corecting was mean..... 


Mssjnnfer said:


> I know what the tests include.
> 
> There's a huge difference. The purpose of the test is to see if your dog is trained not to take the food. It's not for training purposes.
> 
> ...


And correcting is not punishing.........


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Fair enough about that on ONE poster with the leash and prong......but she did say corecting was mean......


No, she didn't. She said setting your dog up to be punished is not nice. That's very different from "correcting your dog at all is mean". 

And, whether you like the terminology or not, a correction is a form of punishment.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> No, she didn't. She said setting your dog up to be punished is not nice. That's very different from "correcting your dog at all is mean".


LOL! So exactly what does she mean setting your dog up to be punished means


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Setting your dog up for it...meaning not just correcting them when they do it, but TRYING TO GET THEM TO DO IT just so you can correct them. Putting a bunch of yummy treats on the counter on purpose so that your dog will jump up there and you can correct it.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> No, she didn't. She said setting your dog up to be punished is not nice. That's very different from "correcting your dog at all is mean".
> 
> And, whether you like the terminology or not, a correction is a form of punishment.


A correction is a form of punishment Please explain.......


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Setting your dog up for it...meaning not just correcting them when they do it, but TRYING TO GET THEM TO DO IT just so you can correct them. Putting a bunch of yummy treats on the counter on purpose so that your dog will jump up there and you can correct it.


 
I have put food in reach of my dog....not on the counter that is just dumb.......but yes I do......trash can with scraps....is that bad


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

*Definition:* Punishment involves applying a stimulus after a behavior in order to reduce likelihood that the behavior will occur again in the future.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I have put food in reach of my dog....not on the counter that is just dumb.......but yes I do......trash can with scraps....is that bad


She was referring to people putting "yummy smelling treats" on the counter so that the dog would go up there, just so that they'd be able to correct it. Obviously, we have to teach our dogs "wait" and "leave it" at some point, but there's a civil way to go about it. If you're making dinner and have the garbage can out to put scraps in as you're cooking, then there's a reason for it and I wouldn't call it setting your dog up. If you're not even doing anything with the garbage can and just plop it in the middle of the kitchen in hopes that your dog will go try to take something out so that you can correct him, that's setting him up.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> *Definition:* Punishment involves applying a stimulus after a behavior in order to reduce likelihood that the behavior will occur again in the future.


So good I'm okay because I just told him leave it.........whew! Thanks


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> She was referring to people putting "yummy smelling treats" on the counter so that the dog would go up there, just so that they'd be able to correct it. Obviously, we have to teach our dogs "wait" and "leave it" at some point, but there's a civil way to go about it. If you're making dinner and have the garbage can out to put scraps in as you're cooking, then there's a reason for it and I wouldn't call it setting your dog up. *If you're not even doing anything with the garbage can and just plop it in the middle of the kitchen in hopes that your dog will go try to take something out so that you can correct him, that's setting him up.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Although we emptied it every nite.....This is exactly how I trained my boys......it's called leave it...........


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## SeaMonster (Jul 4, 2011)

at 5 months counter surfing is just normal and goldens respond to positive training not physical punishment. 
I think using any physical punishment would result in a fearful dog. Even if he'she stops counter surfing, the dog will become skittish. 

I learned this one from training cats to not get on tables. They get on the dining table, you say no! you put them down. They get back on again, you say no again and put them down again. After about 10 months they get it


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SeaMonster said:


> a*t 5 months counter surfing is just normal and goldens respond to positive training not physical punishment*.
> I think using any physical punishment would result in a fearful dog. Even if he'she stops counter surfing, the dog will become skittish.
> 
> I learned this one from training cats to not get on tables. They get on the dining table, you say no! you put them down. They get back on again, you say no again and put them down again. After about 10 months they get it


There is that word punishment again: Physical this time lol.....
Leave it and off has always worked for me.....never had a counter surfer......so I guess my dogs are not normal:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

However you put it, there is a difference between intentionally putting your dog in a situation so you can correct him for doing the wrong thing vs. intentionally putting your dog in a situation that allows you to reward him for doing what you want.

The first one is not awful or evil, so I hope maybe we can dial back words like "mean." Some skills are very difficult to teach without setting a dog up for correction, and most dogs are durable enough to take a correction at an appropriate level ('no' or a collar pop).

At the same time, you don't need to use correction to teach "leave it" or "off." It is possible to teach both by setting your dog up to do it right and to be rewarded. Personally, I don't like to use correction in the teaching phase because it doesn't feel fair to me to be scolding a dog when he doesn't yet know what I want, and I like to avoid it as much as is reasonable in the proofing phase because I think you _can_ have reliability without it.

The command "leave it" isn't mean (and nobody said it was), especially when you teach it by rewarding the dog for restraining himself. I find it easier to teach with negative punishment (withholding a treat) and positive reinforcement (giving a treat when the dog chooses to obey) than with positive punishment (correcting the dog when he goes for the food).

Is it mean to set your dog up so you can get a few corrections in? Probably not, if the corrections are well timed and not overly strong. Is it as fun and effective as setting your dog up so you can get a few rewards in? Probably not.

By the same token, to go back to the OP, shocking (or "nicking," "stimming," or "burning" if you prefer) the dog for counter surfing isn't fair if the dog hasn't been given an opportunity to understand what is expected and to be rewarded for it. It's also probably overkill for a household problem. And, on top of it, as several of the experienced e-collar folks have said, it's not something you can just put on a dog and figure out as you go along. It should only be used as part of a precise training program.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Although we emptied it every nite.....This is exactly how I trained my boys......it's called leave it...........


Do you understand that "leave it" is a command that people use for an action and sometimes train without any kind of punishment (or correction or whatever word you're comfortable with)? It seems like you believe that saying "leave it" is the same thing as scolding a dog.


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## mygoldenkids (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm really disappointed on how many people are going on the attack. As I said in my earlier post, we are all on this site because we obviously love and care for our dogs.

There are as many ways to train as there are trainers out there. My dog has never been hit or hurt by me or my husband. She has never once given out a yelp or shied away from me. Yes, I have used a prong collar--which by the way, is used by many on this site for training. If that's not your particular way, that's okay. I'm not out there to criticize your methods. Molly didn't have it on constantly--she was just a strong-willed dog that needed more than verbal command, praise, treats, etc. I tried all of those things. I spent money on books and several different trainers. And for the record, Molly is the least skittish dog I know. She's not afraid of anything/anyone. It's funny how many seem to think (although it was implied and not stated) that I am being mean to my dog.

I really thought this was a place to offer from our own particular experiences. If you 
don't like something, that's fine. I really don't think it's necessary for anyone to go into attack mode and criticize other members without knowing the full story. I know that I am a good mom to my golden babies. They are my only kids, as I can't have any of my own. 

And, as I've also said, none of you truly know me or my situation. The prong collar did work more quickly--but here is the very personal reason I needed to use it for faster results (which was discussed at length w/several trainers,) as the other methods were not working w/ her strong personality:
I had both a cerebral angiogram & neurointerventional brain surgery earlier this year. That means for both procedures they punctured my groin artery and sent a catheter up through my body and into my brain to resolve a clot that had formed. You may wonder what that has to do anything? Well, I could not, under any circumstances have Molly jump up on me or near me (like in the kitchen) after the surgery, as the impact could have caused the incision site in the groin to rupture and the artery to bleed. She did jump on counters, but she also jumped on ME. So, this same training method was used in both situations. We needed to remedy her jumping up as quickly as possible, knowing that I would need a "jump-free" home. I have to have another cerebral angiogram on Thursday, and I can feel relieved that Molly is well-trained, and I can heal without worry. My Henry is not a jumper, so no worries there.

I had my reasons, and I'm sorry if you don't agree. But, unless you've taken that same scary walk in my shoes, please don't criticize me or my intentions. I'm sorry I didn't go into the full explanation of circumstances in my first posting.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Having a strong analysis of a training tool, for or against, is not an attack on a person no matter how defensive people get. There is a whole special social group "against" positive training, for example. For every person who is defensive that they use an e collar there is some one defensive about being called a cookie pusher. 

Does the end justify the means? Why is there war? Should children be spanked? Can Ashton replace Charlie Sheen? 

No opinions about any of these things are the same as individual attacks.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Ljilly28 wrote:
"Dogs do what they practice. We've never has a counter surfing golden mainly bc of prevention. If they don't do it, they never do it. . .If they do it and rewards are huge, it is hard to cure. I would have your puppy drag her leash, and calmly step on it so she cannot get those front feet off the floor. That way, she will not become shy of your hands, and it will seem more like an automatic consequence. Also, try tethering her with a kong near the kitchen while you're in there cooking etc, but so that she cannot jump. Teach her what you would like her to do- lay down? sit-stay? and make that HUGELY rewarding for w while with awesome treats. Like a human toddler, she is too young to be unsupervied around tempting counters, but she can become trustworthy over time. "

I hope you do not mind that I re-copied your post.

I love it.

I so agree with it. To set our dogs up for success it really helps to PREVENT unwanted behavior and to teach our dogs the behavior we would like them to do.

Thanks for your post.


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## mygoldenkids (Oct 4, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Having a strong analysis of a training tool, for or against, is not an attack on a person no matter how defensive people get. There is a whole special social group "against" positive training, for example. For every person who is defensive that they use an e collar there is some one defensive about being called a cookie pusher.
> 
> Does the end justify the means? Why is there war? Should children be spanked? Can Ashton replace Charlie Sheen?
> 
> No opinions about any of these things are the same as individual attacks.


 Actually, someone stating that i reminded them of an "old, nasty vet they once knew... yanking a poor dog off its feet" IS a personal attack...just saying. That vet was not properly using the prong collar anyway. Molly has never been yanked off her feet or suspended in mid-air by prongs. Yikes. 

I do like your part about the different groups. That's exactly what I was trying to convey. Everyone has their methods (and their reasons.) That's why we have a forum. 

BTW--I miss Charlie Sheen...


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

LOL. Wow. I missed a lot. 

First of all I never said the nasty old vet used a prong collar. I wonder whether my posts actually get read... Lots of misconceptions going on, but whatever. She used a regular collar, which was still terrible. 

Not really sure what the point was of you posting about your surgery, but I'll bite. My brother has special needs and would probably get knocked down if one of our dogs jumped on him. I had a total hysterectomy and would have been messed up if a dog jumped on me. My mom is borderline diabetic so she'd probably be messed up if one of our dogs jumped on her. Not sure what the point was about posting all of this 

Anyway, I'll keep training my dogs in a way that doesn't make them fearful of me. Do whatever ya'll want. Don't really care. 

Doesn't really matter what I post as it probably won't be completely read. Have fun picking out the parts you do and don't like.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Do you understand that "leave it" is a command that people use for an action and sometimes train without any kind of punishment (or correction or whatever word you're comfortable with)? It seems like you believe that saying "leave it" is the same thing as scolding a dog.


I understand what it is used for. And I know I am not scolding my dog. And he is always rewarded when he shows restraint when food is within his reach.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I miss Charlie too! I thought I adored Ashton, but he's just not as good.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> I miss Charlie too! I thought I adored Ashton, but he's just not as good.


LOL! Thanks! Sometimes it's hard not to get defensive when my training techniques are criticized and I look down and see a healthy loving well behaved beautiful golden with no adverse effects sitting next to me:


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

Austin's just started counter surfing. What I've been doing (and seems to be working) is whenever I see him show interest in something on the table or counter, I say "Leave it" and drop food on the floor. So that way he knows that "good stuff" is on the floor and not on tables.

I would never use an e-collar for something as simple as counter-surfing. I think alternative training methods should be tried out first. And personally I feel that e-collars are best reserved for field/hunt training (I don't know if I will, but I do know that people get good results). I don't see the need to use it for such a small issue.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> i use to place food on the counter so my dog could get it.
> when he went for the food i would say "no". sometimes
> scold him verbally. i also would leave food on the coffee
> table so i could teach him not to take food on the table.
> ...



WOW. This amazes me. And you accomplished this just with verbal training?


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I tried to look through the replies but got a bit lost in the discussions... Has anyone tried using a squirt bottle? It helped a lot with house training in my house. That plus quick clear rewards when he went outside sort of did the trick. 

I also used the squirt bottle when he's getting too rough with our little, older dog. It is filled with water and a tad bit of vinegar. 

Tucker can be stubborn, and I find that he needs a one-two approach--clear and immediate correction combined with clear and immediate rewards. Otherwise he doesn't connect the dots. 

Ultimately he really wants to please his humans so this has helped a lot.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Setting your dog up for it...meaning not just correcting them when they do it, but TRYING TO GET THEM TO DO IT just so you can correct them. Putting a bunch of yummy treats on the counter on purpose so that your dog will jump up there and you can correct it.


 
I'm not going to debate the best way to get the dog to understand a concept, that's a personal choice, but whatever method someone chooses, I think it makes a lot more sense to work on it in a planned context where you are calm and have control of the situation, rather than suddenly trying to get your point across to the dog when you are in a panic because he unexpectedly has access to something that could be harmful to him.


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## SeaMonster (Jul 4, 2011)

OutWest said:


> ... Has anyone tried using a squirt bottle? It helped a lot with house training in my house. That plus quick clear rewards when he went outside sort of did the trick.


we tried the bottle with plain water and it did nothing.....Didn't have the heart to add vinegar to it. 



> Ultimately he really wants to please his humans so this has helped a lot.


I think thats exactly it. when their older they live to please you and I dont know too many older goldens who jump on counters or people


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