# When the dog gives up and comes back



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Mlopez got me thinking of starting another thread. What do you do when the dog gives up on his hunt and comes running back to the handler? 

Or...the dog doesn't go?


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Hopefully you are not training by yourself so your dog gets help before he gives up. I think if I was working by myself and Jige was coming back in I would start walking towards the mark while telling him to "hunt it up". I would try to keep him excited about the hunt. 

I have not had to deal with a dog not going either. So I have nothing to add to that part. I cant wait to see what others have to say.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

*You don't let them do it!!* Use whatever method you have at your disposal to get that dog to the mark. I will not let them come back to me and that means even if I have to go out and meet them. I will walk them out to the mark if I have too and repeat.

If the dog doesn't go then you have to understand whether the dog didn't go because of confusion, didn't see the mark or if it is a no go. Each one is dealt with differently.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

This was not my problem...but a friend's dog this past weekend decided he was done looking and started coming back. He hasn't ran a test yet, but he's been in training for a year and so this isn't the case of a puppy just needing help. She chased him back into the field to go find the mark, then re-ran the mark. She's noted this dog in general is not very persistent.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

...and with a dog like this who is just not in general very persistent I am thinking that having the gunner help might not be a good idea. He was not genuinely confused, he just decided to give up. You don't want the dog to think that he can stop searching and the gunner will step in and throw another one and/or help him.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Maybe the dog needs shorter marks. If he gives up easily he needs more success in the field. Or maybe this isnt the game for him. Just cause he is a retriever doesnt mean he is going to want to retrieve.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I had this issue with Flip when we did field training when he was younger. If he ran out there and didn't find the bird fairly quickly, he would try to run back to me. I don't think it was a lack of desire, he just didn't understand that he had to keep working to find it that bird...that it would ALWAYS be there if he kept looking. He seemed to think it would be faster to just start all over. WRONG ANSWER BUDDY! We had the same issue when we started articles in obedience....he wanted that article NOW and didn't understand that sometimes it wasn't going to be a quick answer and coming back without something in his mouth was not an option. Again, I didn't see it as a lack of desire, but instead more a lack of patience. He was trying to find the quickest way.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks Jodie. Definitely not a lack of desire...lack of perseverance. Dog just needs to learn to stay out there until he finds it. This is why my friend did not pursue SAR dog work with him which she's done in the past.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> ...and with a dog like this who is just not in general very persistent I am thinking that having the gunner help might not be a good idea. He was not genuinely confused, he just decided to give up. You don't want the dog to think that he can stop searching and the gunner will step in and throw another one and/or help him.


Pesonally, unless it is a puppy who does not know any better, that is a cardinal sin as far as I am concerned. I hate to see that!! And I have seen it when judging Junior (and unfortuantely even in Senior...) In some cases it is a reflection of the quality of the dog itself--some dogs simply do not have the inborn drive and perseverance. In these cases it is akin to the old saying of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. In other cases it is a result of a lack of training and experience, and the desire just needs to be woken up in the dog.

Now, if she decides to persist in training the dog, the gunners will have to help in more *subtle* ways. The *dog must be made accountable for finding the bird/bumper. The gunner should work to keep the dog in the AOF but NOT throw anything else, particularly not if the dog is standing there looking for help*. If the dog comes in despite this, I would be hauling them out to the AOF, and if the dog has been FF'd ear pinching to that bird to emphasize that coming in without it is not an option. 

To build desire and hunt she should also do some hunt-em up work. If you have access to pigeons they work very well for this. Plant them in deepish cover. Initially keep them from flying by putting them in a bird sock (a knee-high with the foot cut off will work) or tying the wings. She should encourage the dog to get into the cover by first tossing a bird in, and saying "hunt it up". And after that, continue to encourage the dog to dig in and find more birds. If you have enough of them to let a few fly away, just dizzy some so the dog can flush them or catch them. For a dog seemingly without a lot of latent desire this can often serve to pump them up or flip on that switch. This all helps to teach the dog that "hunt it up" means to dig in and keep working. Once the dog knows this, then the gunner can also say it to the dog when they are in the AOF but seeming a bit discouraged, or if they stop and look for help.

With a puppy or really inexperienced dog there needs to be a good gunner in the field to help and keep them out there so that good habits are built from the beginning of training. It is also why it is vital to build the complexity of marking situations gradually so that the dog experiences success and builds confidence.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> ...and with a dog like this who is just not in general very persistent I am thinking that having the gunner help might not be a good idea. He was not genuinely confused, he just decided to give up. You don't want the dog to think that he can stop searching and the gunner will step in and throw another one and/or help him.


I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say. It is better to have the gunner pull the dog into a mark than force at first. Then use other methods to get them to it if they persist. 
How do you build perseverance????
Has the dog been force fetched. Just because the dog has been in training for a year doesn't mean the dog got the training they need.
Shelly pretty much summed it up.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Or...the dog doesn't go?


And that is another issue! There are a number of reasons a dog will no go.

Lack of desire or courage
Lack of effort
Not understanding it is not optional
Avoidance--could be due to worry about the terrain or factors involved, or worry due to being inappropriately corrected
Not remembering the mark.
Not seeing the mark.
There are others but this is what I am coming up with off the top of my head. Of these, #6 is not the dog's fault. This is one reason you should be watching your dog when marks are thrown so you can read their body language to know if they have seen the mark (most dogs will perk their ears, squish their eyebrows or something). #5 could be the handler's fault as well if they have thrown a multiple in a concept that is too complex for the dog's level of training or innate ability. #4 would also be more on the handler--if the dog has been appropriately trained and schooled, and the handler is aware of the dog's capabilities then they should not be putting the dog in a situation where they get overwhelmed. #3 is also on the handler and the thoroughness of the training program. #1 and 2 are on the dog--they are the hardest to fix, even for a really talented trainer, as they are the "sows ear" dogs. Some can be brought along through really sequential, confidence building marks, but it will always be an innate weakness with the dog. As good a dog as my Breeze can be, she does have shortcomings in regard to water courage, and I have had to work through refusal issues with her on big water marks--she passed it on to Butch, and it was exacerbated by his dad's softness. I have made choices in her last breeding, and the next planned specifically to address this moving forward with my lines.

What to do about a no-go will be very different depending on why it happened.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> Hopefully you are not training by yourself so your dog gets help before he gives up. I think if I was working by myself and Jige was coming back in I would start walking towards the mark while telling him to "hunt it up". I would try to keep him excited about the hunt.
> 
> I have not had to deal with a dog not going either. So I have nothing to add to that part. I cant wait to see what others have to say.


There are really two cardinal sins a retriever can commit. Eating a bird and quitting. Quitting is the antithesis of momentum, and without momentum no retrieving occurs.

But there is a huge difference between a confused puppy quitting, and a dog that is through Basics quitting. At what stage is the dog in question?

EvanG


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## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

I am enjoying reading this. Dakota will not give up searching for anything thrown. I've actually sat down to wait for her. But her sister, Avita will search for a few minutes and if she doesn't find it, she'll come back.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Aislinn said:


> I am enjoying reading this. Dakota will not give up searching for anything thrown. I've actually sat down to wait for her. But her sister, Avita will search for a few minutes and if she doesn't find it, she'll come back.


Are they through formal Basics?

*The components of Basics in order*​1) “Here”​2) “Heel & Sit”​3) “Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4) “Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5) Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6) 3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands _“Back”_
7) Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the _go, stop, cast _functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. *Also includes De-bolting*
8) Single tee
9)  Double tee
10)Water force, Water tee with Swim-by

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

The dog is at least to mini-tee if not single t. He's an older dog with his UD that took up field later in life.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

EvanG said:


> There are really two cardinal sins a retriever can commit. Eating a bird and quitting. Quitting is the antithesis of momentum, and without momentum no retrieving occurs.
> 
> But there is a huge difference between a confused puppy quitting, and a dog that is through Basics quitting. At what stage is the dog in question?
> 
> EvanG


Evan not sure what you were trying to say about my post because to me this makes no sence with what I said. I said I would walk out with my dog to help them keep the search going just as another poster said. I also said I would hope you had someone out in the field to help before the dog got to the point of giving up.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> The dog is at least to mini-tee if not single t. He's an older dog with his UD that took up field later in life.


There are some holes in training that need to be addressed. Shelly and Evan have laid out the steps and I think you understand which one needs to be revisited..


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> Evan not sure what you were trying to say about my post because to me this makes no sence with what I said.


I directly addressed the issue, pointing out that coming back without the bird = quitting, and that quitting is one of only two cardinal sins for retrievers. That makes this a vitally important issue.


General V said:


> I said I would walk out with my dog to help them keep the search going just as another poster said. I also said I would hope you had someone out in the field to help before the dog got to the point of giving up.


That's okay to do, but will usually only solve the problem that day, but not for the future. Quitting is the absence of momentum; a crucially important element in retrieving. Without momentum there is no retrieving.

But for me to throw out suggestions for treatment without knowing more about the development of your dog is irresponsible. I'll be glad to help, but not without knowing more about the dog, and what tools he has.

EvanG


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Evan we are not talking about my dog. This thread was started by someone else.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> Evan we are not talking about my dog. This thread was started by someone else.


Ah, I see. You were the first respondent, not the OP.:doh: Gotcha'. It's hard being helpful sometimes!

EvanG


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