# raw food diet: aggression and guarding



## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

This started since switching from kibble to raw.


Ok so my pup is 4 months. I have been transitioning him to raw food over a period of a month. He now eats a 100% raw diet for his meals. He eats twice a day. I give him raw meats and meaty bones.

When he eats from the bowl, he will chew the food nicely UNTIL I come near him, then he will inhale all the food quickly. If the food is in chunks so small that he can't inhale them quickly, he will sometimes growl at me, or stop and raise his head slightly, as if almost to growl. When he growls, I pull him away from the food and remove the bowl for a minute with a 'no'. Afterwards, I can pet him while he eats the rest and he doesn't growl for the rest of the meal. HOWEVER, he will always inhale it if he feels uneasy.

If I give him treats during the day, like a meaty bone, he will take it outside into the garden, and chew on it on the grass. If I come close to him, he will run away with it. I put him on his lead, to prevent him from running away when he eats the treats, and pet him. When I pet him, he stops eating. If he growls, I remove the food.


Am I doing everything right??? Does anyone have any tips for me to manage this better?

P.S. I am also passing by his food bowl and dropping treats in with my hands. But he so often just inhales the food I don't even get a chance to train him to accept my hands being near him!


----------



## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

To my knowledge there is no connection between food aggression and raw. I wouldn't bother him while eating. There is no reason to. Tayla was aggressive when eating a raw bone and when I needed to take it away I would trade her for it. Strangely enough for her a peanut butter Kong is an upgrade &#55357;&#56833;. Read the book Mine! It has some wonderful suggestions. [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Mine-Practical-Guide-Resource-Guarding/dp/0970562942[/ame]


----------



## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

Thanks for your suggestion Taylas mom. 

(I think the connection between raw feeding and food aggression I am seeing is the fact that he regards the raw food as much higher value than the kibble. therefore he is much more protective over it.)

The thing is, even when he is undisturbed, he will gulp down the food VERY quickly even if someone just passes by with no intention of bothering him. It was when I accidentally touched him and he growled that I realised this might be a problem due to us having young kids at home, and so I have been trying to tackle this since. eating his food rapidly is a problem, because he will vomit or get diarrhoea from ingesting too quickly or taking in too much air. Not to mention he still feels hungry and can't enjoy the meal. Surely there is a better way to help this than just to avoid him when he eats?

I have read that simply allowing them to eat is avoiding the problem rather than addressing it.

Let me know if Im wrong or misinformed here.

Overall, I want the dog to feel safe and trusting that Im not here to take his food.


----------



## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

OK for demonstration, here is an exact replica of what I am dealing with, just so you realise:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIt_yj893qU


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I am definitely not an ecpert but that video made me want to bite someone. The poor dog was trying to be left alone and the person kept bugging him! 

Maybe feed smaller meals more often? I don't know, I just want to say leave him alone.


----------



## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> I am definitely not an ecpert but that video made me want to bite someone. The poor dog was trying to be left alone and the person kept bugging him!
> 
> Maybe feed smaller meals more often? I don't know, I just want to say leave him alone.


I understand what you are saying. However, we have children as young as 8 around the dog, and there are indeed times where the inevitable will happen, and someone will brush up against the dog, touch the dog while it is eating, need to remove food from the dog, etc., and the dog may snap. This needs to be addressed in a household where we have young children around.

I am not willing to allow the behaviour to continue, as it is not safe within a young family household with the dog eating in the kitchen. If that behaviour escalates, as an adult dog it could become very serious around children.

I am asking for guidance from people who acknowledge this as a problem and can make suggestions to modify this behaviour. His food belongs to me, I pay for it, the dog may not snap at me or the children in the house for being near it unintentionally while it eats. Those are my rules.

It's not a problem now, but for a 2 year old Golden Retriever it will be a problem if the behaviour escalates.


----------



## samralf (Aug 11, 2012)

I had a sheltie that crunched once or twice on his bones and swallowed. He was a gulper. I didn't feel comfortable with him eating the bones like that so I ground them up for him. You could also throw bits of muscle meat into his bowl as you walk by so he associates people near his food bowl, while he is eating, as a positive experience because he gets tasty treats.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Will he cooperate with hand feeding him his meals? Even better if you can make him "earn" his food with commands?

There are food bowls that are designed to slow down his eating, like this one:

Amazon.com : ProSelect Plastic Slow Feeder Dog Bowl, Large, Black : Pet Bowls : Pet Supplies

But maybe better to change the feeding scenario altogether by handfeeding?

ETA: Since he didn't display this behavior until the raw diet and you are understandably concerned about this behavior with small children in your home, maybe consider going back to a very high quality kibble? My personal rule for my own dogs is that if it's so high-value that they'll be aggressive about it, they're not getting it again, period.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ok, I have raised many Goldens with children. How I looked at my job was I had to keep both my kids and my,dogs safe. I never ever let my kids around my dogs when they were eating, period. It is possible to do... And the general rule of thumb is that no child under the age of five is ever left alone with a dog... I have never tried to take food away from my dogs, but I know that I could if I had to. My guys trust me and I trust them. That video made me sick. That poor puppy was growling which is an acceptable form of communication to indicate discomfort with the situation. Yet the stupid person kept bugging the puppy. In my household, since I have many dogs, we never have super high value treats to chew here... 

As a child, we had a beagle that was food aggressive...she would steal food and guard it under the dining room table. I was eight at the time and I understood not to go near her in that situation...

If the raw is so high value to your pup, I might go back to kibble that is less valuable. Or I would just leave him alone when he is eating. I never bug my guys when they are eating, but I am frequently moving between them as they eat... I have six dogs...


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

To the OP, I realize you want to "fix" this situation, but from all the behavior seminars I have attended, by and large, the behaviorists would tell you to leave the dog alone when it is eating. The old thought of touching the dog when eating or taking the food away is passé. Wouldn't you become defensive in that situation? I have raised ten Goldens with two boys. My first golden came in 1990, my first boy was born in 1992. Either I corralled my kid(s) or the dog was protected by a baby gate when eating. My golden grew up loving my kids and my kids remained un harmed. You need to read some dog behavior books Mine! to better understand a dog brain. I also like The Complete Idiot's Guide To Positive Dog Training.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I posted on your other thread what I would do to work on the issue, but reading this thread wanted to add that I would never feed a dog around kids. Dog would be fed in a crate, behind a gate, in a room with door shut, etc.


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I don't think the food has anything to do with the guarding/aggression. 

I don't know if I would pull a growling puppy away from its food- IMHO- It will make the behavior worse.

I would rather try to trade for the food or hand feed some of the meal.


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I would personally never leave any child with a dog while eating- Not even the yorkies. The children need to know to leave the dog alone.


----------



## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

I agree with the above. Feed the dog in a crate and train the kids not to go near the crate while the dog is eating.


----------



## Nanoguy (Aug 2, 2013)

Saw a dog whisperer episode on YouTube involving a yellow lab with food aggression similar to what you described. Do a search for "Caesars worst bite" ......may be informative for u.


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Nanoguy said:


> Saw a dog whisperer episode on YouTube involving a yellow lab with food aggression similar to what you described. Do a search for "Caesars worst bite" ......may be informative for u.


I would never recommend that episode as Informative to anyone. Later even Caesar admits he did not handle the dog correctly!!!


----------



## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

There's an article with some potential approaches to this problem on Dr. Sophia Yin's site.

I like a learn to earn approach to mealtime for all dogs, puppy or adult. When my raw-fed dog was a puppy, he would get excited bordering on agitated before meals were set down, but we always asked him to earn his food by asking for some behavior or another -- sit-stay, down-stay, etc. It really helped (a) calm him down, (b) build our relationship with him, and (c) accelerate his obedience training. He now eats very calmly and carefully, but we still ask him to do something before every meal. May not be the solution to the problem you're experiencing, but it's worth a try.


----------



## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Will he cooperate with hand feeding him his meals? Even better if you can make him "earn" his food with commands?
> 
> There are food bowls that are designed to slow down his eating, like this one:
> 
> ...


Yes Noreaster, he *will* cooperate with me hand feeding his meals. This is a win-win for me, because he eats it slower, and he isn't afraid I'm going to take it from him obviously, as I'm giving it to him.

I can hand feed him his meals, but could you shed light for me on what exactly that does for the dog in terms of his psychology? Thanks!

I'd like to _try_ and train him to associate the presence of people with something positive or at least know we won't withdraw the food, but if it doesn't seem rectifiable I will consider removing higher value foods as you suggested


----------



## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

To everybody else ---

The children in the house aren't exactly 'mine'. They are my relatives' children. I have explicitly told the youngest one to leave the dog alone when eating, I have shouted at her sometimes because she has prodded the puppy in the ribcage in an attempt to correct it while barking... much to my horror. I've banned her from touching him, period, but I'd like to know what you guys do to keep your kids off the dogs?! This child is so disobedient I have no doubt she will deliberately aggravate the dog behind my back! she get so excited she doesn't seem to understand that dogs have a different mentality than humans. Moving away from her soon so good riddance:


----------



## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

The 'pulling the puppy back' method is what I have been informed to do by behaviourists, as they have said that this indicates to the dog that the growling itself is unacceptable behaviour.

However, I now see that this could even escalate the problem, making him bite without a growl in advance, which obviously we don't want.

Does anyone recommend hand feeding?


----------



## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

anamity said:


> To everybody else ---
> 
> The children in the house aren't exactly 'mine'. They are my relatives' children. I have explicitly told the youngest one to leave the dog alone when eating, I have shouted at her sometimes because she has prodded the puppy in the ribcage in an attempt to correct it while barking... much to my horror. I've banned her from touching him, period, but I'd like to know what you guys do to keep your kids off the dogs?! This child is so disobedient I have no doubt she will deliberately aggravate the dog behind my back! she get so excited she doesn't seem to understand that dogs have a different mentality than humans. Moving away from her soon so good riddance:


If I were in your shoes I'd talk to your relative about this child. She obviously isn't listening to you when it comes to your dog, so her parent/s need to talk to her. Let her know that there could be consequences to her disturbing your dog when it is eating, and consequences that could end up being painful; physically and emotionally. Maybe something along the lines of "if puppy bites you for bothering him, you may never see him again". I'm sure she loves seeing the puppy and if she doesn't because of a silly mistake from her, I'm hopeful she'll get the message and stop.


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

anamity said:


> The 'pulling the puppy back' method is what I have been informed to do by behaviourists, as they have said that this indicates to the dog that the growling itself is unacceptable behaviour.
> 
> However, I now see that this could even escalate the problem, making him bite without a growl in advance, which obviously we don't want.
> 
> Does anyone recommend hand feeding?


You have 3 threads on the same topic. 

I think I mentioned hand feeding in 1 of them.


Split his meal half- You get 1/2 and he gets 1/2. You use your half to encourage him to leave his food/trade with you for his food. You may need to start with you having more than 1/2. The goal is for him to leave his food and come to you instead. 

Buddy did not have food aggression but he would eat so quick he would vomit afterwards when I got him. I had to use this approach with him. He still over 2 years later must have some water added to his food.


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

anamity said:


> To everybody else ---
> 
> The children in the house aren't exactly 'mine'. They are my relatives' children. I have explicitly told the youngest one to leave the dog alone when eating, I have shouted at her sometimes because she has prodded the puppy in the ribcage in an attempt to correct it while barking... much to my horror. I've banned her from touching him, period, but I'd like to know what you guys do to keep your kids off the dogs?! This child is so disobedient I have no doubt she will deliberately aggravate the dog behind my back! she get so excited she doesn't seem to understand that dogs have a different mentality than humans. Moving away from her soon so good riddance:



I personally believe it is rarely, if ever, the dogs fault when a bite occurs to a child. Dogs give clear signs to leave them alone! Children should never be allowed to climb on, poke, or annoy animals in anyway. I am not referring to a stray or unknown dog attacking a child. I am referring to a known dog.

My brother was bitten/nipped once by the family Bichon. The dog had arthritis- Everyone knew this & his hearing was going. He went picked up the sleeping dog one day. When he got bit- My brother was in trouble, not the dog- Because he bothered a sleeping dog!!! He even told my mom when he went to her- "Bijou bite me. It was my fault!! I'm sorry. I bothered him when he was sleeping" My brother was 8- I think.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

MikaTallulah said:


> I personally believe it is rarely, if ever, the dogs fault when a bite occurs to a child. Dogs give clear signs to leave them alone! Children should never be allowed to climb on, poke, or annoy animals in anyway. I am not referring to a stray or unknown dog attacking a child. I am referring to a known dog.
> 
> My brother was bitten/nipped once by the family Bichon. The dog had arthritis- Everyone knew this & his hearing was going. He went picked up the sleeping dog one day. When he got bit- My brother was in trouble, not the dog- Because he bothered a sleeping dog!!! He even told my mom when he went to her- "Bijou bite me. It was my fault!! I'm sorry. I bothered him when he was sleeping" My brother was 8- I think.


Thank you
My Aunt Grace had a dog that you couldn't even be in the same room with when he was eating (that has to be one of my most ungrammatical sentences ever). We were all warned to leave him alone. She would put him in the kitchen and close the gate and if you went in there, and got bit, it was your fault. 
I've always believed in teaching the kids to leave the dog alone. When my grandchildren would wind Max up, and get nipped, they knew better than to come crying to me because my first question is always, "what did you do to him?"


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm not sure there's anything more to it than, "THIS GOOD. MINE. EAT FASTER. ALSO, MINE!!!" 

Seems like lots of Goldens have resource guarding issues--there are certainly lots of threads that are posted here about it. About the only "cause" that I know about personally is with my two rescue dogs, not Goldens, neither of whom had enough to eat in their formative weeks and are highly competitive about food with the other dogs. But we really can't say what's going on in their fuzzy little heads, we're only guessing.

Some times, the cause doesn't matter, it's just what to do about it now, right?

ETA: Just realized I addressed the wrong question! As for what hand feeding does--it associates the really fantastic food with you, his human, and it associates listening and offering certain behaviors to get him that food. So he learns to concentrate on you and on training, which gives him an alternative to guarding behaviors (which are very instinctive). You want him thinking and having fun, instead of tensing up and being stressed.

I would definitely take him into another room and shut the door for this. First, I like to change everything I can that might be associated with a behavior I want to address and second, you don't need any little helpers. That could easily make the problem worse instead of better.


----------



## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

anamity said:


> I can hand feed him his meals, but could you shed light for me on what exactly that does for the dog in terms of his psychology? Thanks!


It changes his view of humans and food. Instead of viewing humans as a threat to his food, he will (hopefully) starting viewing them as the source of food. Google NILF (Nothing In Life Is Free).


----------

