# Is anyone else seeing...



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

...an unusual amount of threads about aggression, snapping and biting in Golden puppies and young adult dogs? Does it bother anyone else that we seem to be having more and more young Goldens with behaviours that are not typical of the breed?


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

The aggression ones worry me more than the nipping and biting ones. Hell, Oak is two and still bites me on a daily basis :doh:: Of course it is simply my own fault. He does have a very soft mouth. 

It seems to me that most of the threads on aggression have been from first time golden owners. I think once the owners learn to put their foot down they will be fine (I know there are exceptions) Even my wimpy dog Oakly had some food aggression issues as a pup but a little hand feeding stopped that. Now I can play with him everyday and even let him "bite" me and I don't have a single scar on my hands or arms He seems to have learned his limits.


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

yes very worrisome as it is with any breed.


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## McSwede (Jan 30, 2007)

I think a lot of this is the due to the perception people have of the breed.

A golden pup, to me, isn't any different than any other dog in it's basic behavior. The Golden traits don't appear until later, as they mature. You see flashes now and then, but no consistency.

There are extremely playful pups, who can be very mouthy, and this can be interpreted as aggression. Bailey was one for sure, but as he's matured, you can see the changes in him almost daily. He gets better with age, like fine wine and he's learning his limits as far as his mouth goes.


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

well this is also what happens when BYB gets a hold of a great breed. I talked to a breeder who breed many many years ago and she said she NEVER saw a hyper puppy like what they see today. She said all hers came from great breeding stock and she said they were never as hyper as the puppies and young adults you see now.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Yes, but I'm also seeing them on the Newf forum and they're frequently from *new* (to the breed) owners.

However, once those same owners have stuck around on the forums for a few months/years after the initial "HELP" posts....it's evident that it was a phase, or a lack of understanding that particular dog's training *hot button*, or just not understanding the breed...or pups in general. 

Many have had pups in the past that they say were different. But were they really, or has the owner forgotten what that sweet, gentle 12 year old was like when it was a puppy? Plus, they're not understanding that all dogs are different, just as all humans are different. No two are going to react in exactly the same way to the same stimulus, so you've got to keep on searching for the right tools to train that particular pup.

Out of virtually hundreds of posts seeking help for certain behaviors that the new owners are mis-reading as aggression, all except one or two have turned into wonderful, loving, gentle ADULT dogs.

Granted there have been a couple that had to be put down due to aggression. But most certainly have not. Most are just being what so many puppies are (and remember, even a 17-22 month old dog is still not grown up) ....exuberant, excitable, lively, energetic, pushy, self-centered, BABIES.

Once the more experienced members kick in with training advice, and "calming" advice......things settle down. 

Puppies are NOT born trained and perfect. Too many people see wonderful adult dogs, and want one "just like that", but they don't completely understand the work, commitment, responsibility, patience, and more work that goes into turning that cute puppy into a well-trained adult.

I think that many of the posts are out of frustration, exhaustion, and lack of understanding that MOST of the time, "this too shall pass" as long as they keep on working at it.

Plus.....those of us with kids know the unwritten rule. If your first one is an angel...stop right there! Never have another, because the next child is guaranteed to be satan personified!! :lol: :lol:


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## Elway&Prince (Sep 6, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Yes, but I'm also seeing them on the Newf forum and they're frequently from *new* (to the breed) owners.
> 
> From those same owners that have stuck around on the forums for a few years after the initial "HELP" posts....it's evident that it was a phase, or a lack of understanding that particular dog's training *hot button*, or just not understanding the breed...or pups in general.
> 
> ...


Exactly, I see your point.


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## timm (Jan 7, 2007)

Bailey's Dad said:


> I think a lot of this is the due to the perception people have of the breed.
> 
> A golden pup, to me, isn't any different than any other dog in it's basic behavior. The Golden traits don't appear until later, as they mature. You see flashes now and then, but no consistency.
> 
> There are extremely playful pups, who can be very mouthy, and this can be interrupted as aggression. Bailey was one for sure, but as he's matured, you can see the changes in him almost daily. He gets better with age, like fine wine and he's learning his limits as far as his mouth goes.


This man speaks the truth! There is a misconception that goldens are sooo gentle and just love us humans.. but as puppies all they want to do is bite stuff, and it makes perfect sense since it is the only way they can explore their world. After a year old, if properly trained, the biting should have had stopped and they can focus on toys and cookies.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> ...an unusual amount of threads about aggression, snapping and biting in Golden puppies and young adult dogs? Does it bother anyone else that we seem to be having more and more young Goldens with behaviours that are not typical of the breed?


 
I don't believe that Goldens are any "More" aggressive than they have ever been. (You still get a clinker once in a while, but they're rare.)

What has changed are the buyers. The first time Golden buyer today has next to zero experience with dogs or animals of any kind. They have an unrealistic expectation that puppies are BORN housebroken, completely socialized and fully obedience trained, right out of the womb. The Golden's reputation for stellar temperament makes those unrealistic expectations even more ubsurd. 

When their untrained 12 week old mouthy retriever puppy starts to chase moving or flapping objects or latches onto their fingers or legs they start complaining about the horrible "aggressive" nature their puppy is exhibiting. 

In reality they have a normal happy puppy and they haven't invested any time or effort in socializing or teaching the puppy proper behavior.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

LOL...you quoted me, but I was changing/adding as you did. Basically the same, but more wordy (which is SO like me) ROFL

It's funny.....with Goldens, I'd expect a lot of activity, and would want a lively, spirited puppy.

I can match ANY thread here with a nipping, jumping, biting, mouthy, stubborn, bratty puppy. 

His name is Cole. He's a Newfoundland. (Our fifth)

He is 17 weeks old, and weighs in at 58 lbs. So far nothing is working to stop his mouthing. And, I've tried it all.

But ya know what.....he's NOT aggressive. His line is known internationally for it's gentleness and sweet disposition. He'll get there. But it'll take time....LOTS of time and training. Newfs do not mature until they're about 3-4 years old. And they're BIG, so they're a real challenge. (Unlike what most think. Gentle giants are gentle, aren't they? Yes....eventually.)

He's a PUPPY. He'll get over it. They ALL do. He's teething, and thinks it's fun to boot.

Fortunately I KNOW this. What I find to be a real shame is that so many don't....and then freak out. I'm happy when they find a forum to explain what the realities are, because then there's a great chance that everyone will be happier, through greater understanding.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I wholeheartedly agree with SC...I think it is owner expectations that have gone up, along with inexperience of dogs. I was actually discussing this with my grandmother not long a go actually and she siad something that struck a cord. She said that when she was young if a child was pestering a dog with a bone and the dog growled it would be the child that got a telling off for annoying the dog...these days the dog would probably be in a shelter for showing aggressive tendencies! A dog these days has to be perfect, the dog should never, ever growl, the dog should never hump, the dog should never bark, the dog should let you take anything from it...of course ALL this (and much more) can be achieved with a dog but it takes TIME!!! I can totally empathise with new owners being worried, whatever their pup's age - that's no problem, pups can come as a bit of a shock after all but it's when the owners punish or blame the pups for not understanding quickly enough that I find hard and frankly, upsetting. I think society is changing, not necessarily the best for dogs sadly. We seem to expect so much of them and want them to be perfect so fast, just like everything else we want it "now". Our reserves of patience seem much less.


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## Scorpio118 (Jul 9, 2007)

I agree with what Gramps and AG say - did she call herself wordy? hee hee hee........ NAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I dont believe they are more aggressive - I DO believe it is the new owners.... Maddie was VERY mouthy as a pup - but I wouldnt have called her aggressive.... she is SOOOOOOOO submissive its pathetic!! I was VERY "stressed" with her as a pup - I got myself way in over myhead!! I would have wished for a colicky baby ANYTIME!!!!! 

And like my children I DIDNT LEARN!!!!! I went and got another one..... hee hee hee...... Mike was the total opposite of Maddie - he was NOT mouthy - he's just a hell on wheels!!!! hee hee hee..........


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I remember my husband saying Shadow was aggressive. LOL...when Shadow would latch on to him and he'd just stand there and do nothing I would think, "Here is a very smart man who doens't know enough to correct a puppy?" I would then say, "Well, you aren't just going to stand there are you? Correct him." I told, yes told, him what to do on more than one occassion.

There are people who do not know how to train and raise puppies. Although I've had dogs all my life, I never learned how to actually train a pup, so off to school we went. Me and my Shadow. Big mistake:doh:. It should have been Shadow and the entire family! Everyone living in home should be on the same page IMHO.

Now in comes, Tucker! Ugh! LOL Shadow was a piece of cake. Tucker was given up before his first birthday because he was mouthy, unruly, and needed a lot of work. He's still not perfect, but when an owner doesn't take the time to work with a dog, some of them just won't get it! My childhood dogs just seem to follow our lead and were perfect, yes perfect, pets.

Time to train, Tucker...This time around I got smart. : I signed DH and my youngest son up for classes with both Tucker and Shadow. All the training tips I suggested and they scoffed at when I would use them were now part of their arsenal. I watched every move they made and listened to every word they said through the viewing window. HA HA...they laughed at me no more...

Well, Tucker and Shadow both wound up passing their CGC certs (never thought Mr. Goof Ball, Shadow, would pass) together, in the same class, while being partnered with DH and my youngest son.

How many dogs are given up too soon? Someone gave up on Tucker too soon. He still shows one behavior that could be mistake for aggression. It doesn't come out much anymore, but Tucker is a dog, as well as Shadow, I would never be fearful of putting my hands down his throat or my face near his mouth. 

I should be working with Tucker more myself and I feel very guilty sometimes. Tucker is extremely bright. He would make someone a wonderful partner in whatever they would choose to do. Be it obedience, agility, tracking, whatever. I am what holds my two back.

I think what we sometimes need to remember, a puppies mouth is like the hands of an infant. That is their way of exploring the world. Just as we need to teach a child life lessons, we need to teach a puppy, too. Teaching never ends...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I've been noticing this for the whole time I have been here. I find it deeply disturbing and sad.

Equally sad are posts about SHY Goldens. Your Golden should never be afraid of thunder, fireworks, any people, any sounds, traffic, other dogs...

This is supposed to be a very stable, confident, happy, friendly, and sound breed.

When I mention these things here, as I have in the past, no one responds. It does make me sad.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

A bad temperament is a bad temperament...

Maybe some of it is the handler. Maybe there's a reason I've had fifty Goldens, forty-five of them backyard bred rescues, and I have yet to have one snap at me.

I have had a timid one, but when I got him he was a full blown lunatic who couldn't be touched. After a few months with me he was going to dog shows and playing tuggy in crowds. He never did get over some of his quirks, though (namely a terror of children).

A bad temperament is a bad temperament. There is no breed where I think it's having high expectations to expect the dog not to maul me over a toy or bone or having his collar grabbed. I have ZERO tolerance for such behavior, and I would never condone the breeding of a Golden that has ever bitten a human or which is afraid of any of the things I listed above, for that matter.

BTW I do not count puppy nipping in PLAY at all in this- that is normal dog behavior and is NOT aggression.

I mean a dog or pup that actually snarls and lunges at a human in an aggressive manner.

And shyness, well that's easy enough to understand. A well bred puppy of any breed will greet new noises, people, and objects with happy curiosity, not fear.

Even my brand new rescue Sabrina, who was NOT socialized and no doubt didn't come from a good background or pedigree is curious about things, and wags her tail while exploring this big, noisy new world. She has a true Golden temperament.


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## Lisa (Sep 25, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> What has changed are the buyers. The first time Golden buyer today has next to zero experience with dogs or animals of any kind. They have an unrealistic expectation that puppies are BORN housebroken, completely socialized and fully obedience trained, right out of the womb. The Golden's reputation for stellar temperament makes those unrealistic expectations even more ubsurd.


Exactly! This is why so many Goldens end up in rescue. Our rescue group GRIN re-homes 150+ Goldens a year in NE Ohio alone! Many of them are under a year old, or between 1 & 2 and not trained. Everyone thinks they are going to get the perfect Golden on TV and haven't done the research to understand all the work & time it takes to train an active Golden.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think you are right Lisa, but I think that is an entirely different issue from dogs that actually aggressively attack people or are afraid of strangers on walks.

A Golden with a PERFECT temperament is still likely to be active, destructive, hyper, and need a lot of training. But he won't be aggressive.


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

*I have seen a huge difference*

I see a huge difference in the temperaments of goldens AND
their owners.
While all puppies have puppy energy, go thru teething, the golden
as a breed is supposed to be laid back, gentle, "with a sense of
honor and a sterling character".Hardy and eager should not be
confused with hyper.

I have read threads and looked over at my dogs and pups and
said whew, glad you are mine! Really do not have to read threads
to feel this way, but hope you get the meaning.

It has been a joke with my sister and friend who both have labs,
they have called me over the years and said "when is this dog going
to grow up?" and I always laugh and say "when he becomes a golden
retriever". Both dogs are great kids now but took a lot longer to
mature than my goldens.

By 4 to 4 1/2 months of age our goldens are calm, laid back and can
go anywhere and behave. 

My vets all say I am the only one who walks in with ten dogs, half
of them puppies and everyone of them sitting in a row waiting for
our name to be called. 
I have also had these vets say to me that they wish more of the 
goldens they saw walked in with these temperaments.

Yes, playtime can get rowdy, and they are always ready for a good
game of ball or fetch but they can also stop and relax just as quickly.

I have twenty dogs and pups in my livingroom and everyone of
them are happy, content and calm. I am looking at them now, and
three are looking at me like, "you know you wanna play with me" but
still very calm.
Well, I can not resist their faces, going to go play,
enjoy the weekend everyone


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

> My vets all say I am the only one who walks in with ten dogs, half
> of them puppies and everyone of them sitting in a row waiting for
> our name to be called.
> I have also had these vets say to me that they wish more of the
> goldens they saw walked in with these temperaments.


We saw that in Muskegon......you had so many goldens (including puppies) under complete control. My husband and I were very impressed It's very apparent you spend an incredible amount of time training your goldens

If you look on Tv, print ads, etc. Goldens are always portrayed as a gentle, lovable, fluffy, and happy. I don't think most people get it that it takes lots of time and patience to get that "perfect" golden.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> I don't believe that Goldens are any "More" aggressive than they have ever been. (You still get a clinker once in a while, but they're rare.)
> 
> What has changed are the buyers. The first time Golden buyer today has next to zero experience with dogs or animals of any kind. They have an unrealistic expectation that puppies are BORN housebroken, completely socialized and fully obedience trained, right out of the womb. The Golden's reputation for stellar temperament makes those unrealistic expectations even more ubsurd.
> 
> ...


There you go!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hooch


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I am a first time Golden owner and did alot of research into finding a great breeder who has been breeding for 25 years. Her references were excellent. Asia was never a hyper puppy. She did have some food aggression issues as a very young pup but that was fixed easily with hand feeding etc. She has never shown a bit of aggression toward any person but did show some dog aggression beginning at 18 months. I agree that a consistent training approach and patience is needed to get the great dog a Golden should be according to the breed standard for temperment. After a bout of training and continued consistency, I am proud to say she is now pretty close to a perfect specimen of the Golden temperment. I guess what I am trying to say in my limited experience iwth Goldens that it is a combination of good breeding and good parenting that is needed!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

As an impulse Golden owner, I was totally taken back by Lucky's mouthyness, puppy dominence and food/bone agression. It tooks weeks and weeks for me to find the key to establish clear leadership. He had the ability to destroy, and an urge to eat inedibles.

I just don't remember other puppies being so time and strategy demanding. But they were smaller mixed breeds. 

But of course Lucky is the exact opposite now. Maybe in general Golden puppies can be more of a handful then what people imagine.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Goldens are IMO a demanding, high maintaince breed and not for beginners.
They require lots of grooming, training, are active pups with fast metabolisms so need to pee more often than a calmer breed puppy. Ironic, that the much easier breeds like Whippets and Salukis are usually suggested for exerienced homes only "go get a Golden!" is told to pet people who want a Whippet... well I can assure you Whippets are WAY less work. You sure as heck wouldn't find any Whippet owner using or needing a prong or a head halti, for example... they are much more sensitive and responsive. This is not a slam on Goldens at ALL, it's just reality. Goldens are not a made to order perfect pet for a totally novice pet owner. NO dog is really, but Goldens are low on my list of breeds to suggest to a person with three kids, a job, and no dog knowledge.

Goldens require a lot stronger of a handler and alot more bold methods of getting their attention than does a more quiet and sensitive breed. They need tons of exercise, tons of training, and lots of love. They are WONDERFUL DOGS, but are a very DOGGY type of dog and you get what you put in!!! For sure... you can make a Golden the BEST dog you ever had- they have SO MUCH to give and are so much more willing and active and interested in learning than, say, a mild mannered and easy care Whippet.

All that said, dogs can all be wonderful in the right home, and it is an alarming trend that Goldens are so often seen as a beginners low care easy dog. NOT SO!

I still stand by my statement that there is never any excuse for aggression, though. Everything I just said above may explain a dog that pulls the leash and jumps about and chews up the sofa and bites the kids clothes when they run around, but it does not explain food aggressive, snapping, snarling, etc...


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

The only thing,i can say is that the golden has been, for me the easiest dog,I've ever owned or trained.Yes,they are hyper,happy,jumpy,mouthy but they are,at the same time,very responsive of any training.They do need a lot of exercise,love their food(at least,most of them) but need to be trained from day 1.Most people don't realize the amount of exercise,they need and how velcro,they really are.
As for aggressivity,I've never really seen much!.
Normally assertive dogs will stand up for themselves,by sometimes growling at another dog if he's trying to mount her or him but that as far as I've seen it,go to.In general,this is a 1st time ,easy breed ig handled and trained propally from day one.
All dogs,whatever the breed,will try to see how far they can go without meaning that they are aggressive!.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Yes, but I'm also seeing them on the Newf forum and they're frequently from *new* (to the breed) owners.
> 
> However, once those same owners have stuck around on the forums for a few months/years after the initial "HELP" posts....it's evident that it was a phase, or a lack of understanding that particular dog's training *hot button*, or just not understanding the breed...or pups in general.
> 
> ...


 
Think you summed it quite nicely!!!


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

:curtain:
sorry, double post


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

I am a first time golden owner but I've had dogs all my life. Charlie was from a BYB and he has never had any kind of food aggression. He was nippy and jumpy and really hyper until about 7 or 8 mths but it actually went much better than I expected. He was a little shy and terrified of thunder storms but he is so much better with that now, he'll even sit outside with me when there's thunder.........


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Charlie is a good boy... !


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## KatzNK9 (Feb 27, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> I don't believe that Goldens are any "More" aggressive than they have ever been. (You still get a clinker once in a while, but they're rare.)
> 
> What has changed are the buyers. The first time Golden buyer today has next to zero experience with dogs or animals of any kind. They have an unrealistic expectation that puppies are BORN housebroken, completely socialized and fully obedience trained, right out of the womb. The Golden's reputation for stellar temperament makes those unrealistic expectations even more ubsurd.
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100%. New owners often fail to see that puppies are lots of work & require training. Everybody knows the "ideal Golden" (gentle, loving, caring ... best friend a human could have) & many people believe they "come out of the box" that way. Retrievers are mouthy in general ... they're bred to have stuff in their mouth. It is the job of the new owner to train those behaviors to be appropriate.

I don't believe there are many truly aggressive puppies in the world. Almost every puppy can be a good canine citizen with appropriate socialization & training.

Ozzy (my first Golden) was the mouthiest puppy I've ever had while truly being one of the most social & loving pups I've had. In early months, I have to admit that he had me a bit worried as my first "go to" training methods were failing.

In many respects, Ozzy has been the easiest dog I've had & in other ways, he's been the toughest. Learning how to train your dog & adapting your training methods to meet what motivates your pup are what helps you turn your little Golden beastie into that loving, calm & gentle dog. I don't believe that's breed related. I think it is owner misconception. JMO


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> ...BTW I do not count puppy nipping in PLAY at all in this- that is normal dog behavior and is NOT aggression.
> 
> I mean a dog or pup that actually snarls and lunges at a human in an aggressive manner....


 
This is what I was referring to, sorry I should have clarified. It's the snarling, snapping and lunging at the owner that I'm seeing more threads for that concerns me.

I guess I just am alarmed that the Golden breed, at least from what I'm reading posting boards, seems to have a higher number of puppies and young adult dogs that "actually snarls and lunges at a human in an aggressive manner".


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Charlie is a good boy... !


He's the best, but I may be just a little biased..... 

I love it when he plays rough with me. I say "you wanna fight" and he bites me but it's so soft....lol....and when I say "I need help getting up" he'll come over and put out his paw and take me arm in his mouth....... ahhh...he's so fun


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I play rough too! And I tug! And my dogs sleep in my bed!!! Look at my siggie pic (my bed). Oh well. Still no aggressive dogs here.


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

awe.....that's the way it's supposed to be. I can't wait to get Charlie a buddy that he can actually play with.....no puppy though.... I want a rescue. If we'd bring in another dog into the house now, that would really push my little ones over the edge.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Is that a hint. Because I can find you one LOL- name your age, color, and sex and I'll find you one!


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Is that a hint. Because I can find you one LOL- name your age, color, and sex and I'll find you one!


I'll definately let you know when the time comes. Don't really care about the color or sex but I'd like to get one around Charlie's age. Oh God, I really want one now but I have to wait.......ugh!!!!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I have a boy in North Florida in need... and there's always Sabrina but I'm not ready to think about letting her go yet! Unfortunately, there will always be plenty in need when the time IS right


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I have a boy in North Florida in need... and there's always Sabrina but I'm not ready to think about letting her go yet! Unfortunately, there will always be plenty in need when the time IS right


Hearing all these stories about these dogs in need there is no way I could get another puppy. I've already done that 5 times, so my next one will definately be a rescue....


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

As a married DINK (double income no kids) who brought a puppy home last year, I have no regrets about Wiggles. He was a challenge from the start and he needed strong leadership with a consistent stable pack. My routine with work and the weekend is consistent and I paid my trainer and took my time to work with him, BUT it definitely wasn't something that happened overnight. There were days that I would be extremely frustrated because of the training not working (this was before the private lessons when Wiggles was at a clicker training course).

Wiggles was mouthy and never really that nippy but we always gave him lots of toys and raw bones to chew on to direct his chewing and mouthiness to a proper outlet. I've never had food aggression issues with him either and I can go up behind him and hug him while he's chewing on a bone with no problem. He knows well enough that I'm not going to take his bone away from him.

This does not mean that it would be true of younger children since we don't have any. Wiggles is gentle with little toddlers as he likes to lick their hands, but I would never leave him unsupervised with a young child. Regardless of the breed, he is still a dog and if he sees a child as lower rank, he might guard his resources. Even parents have commented on how calm and good with kids he is.

The most current issue we had to deal with was inter-male aggression as Wiggles is still intact. It was mostly triggered when some neutered Golden Retriever with a clueless owner let his off leash dog mount my dog who was ON LEASH. At that point, I had to really take my time to avoid other dog confrontations and be careful who I let Wiggles interact with. As time passed, I took him to the dog park still leashed and let him interact with dogs who were on and off leash and he settled down about other dogs.

In our new neighbourhood that we just moved into, there are 2 unsocialized Boxers that are owned by a family with 2 young (8-10) girls. One of the Boxers got loose and ran up to Wiggles, sniffed him, and then proceeded to go for the neck. I managed to pull Wiggles off of the dog (he will fight if necessary) and the little girl was barely holding onto her dog by the collar with no leash in sight. I quickly took my dog home and DH and I escorted the girl with her dog on one of our spare leashes to her home.

Everytime we pass near the home with the two Boxers, the one that tried to attack Wiggles is always snarling at him through the chain link fence. I was very polite the first time it happened, but the next time I see that dog go after Wiggles, I'll probably be taking out my field hockey stick and using a hit that would send that dog across the field. Also, avoiding that house isn't really possible since it is on the main street in the neighbourhood and we have to pass by in order to go in or out.

If anything, I think it's the people who do very little research before getting a dog and then they don't invest the time, effort, and money to make sure that their dog is socialized, exercised and trained that are giving up their dogs because they are unruly, unmanageable, or "aggressive".


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

GoldRocksMom said:


> I see a huge difference in the temperaments of goldens AND
> their owners.
> While all puppies have puppy energy, go thru teething, the golden
> as a breed is supposed to be laid back, gentle, "with a sense of
> ...


Comments like this are pehaps part of the mis-information that confuses unsuspecting puppy buyers. 

The Breed Standard defines the Golden Temperament as

*"Friendly, Reliable and Trustworthy. Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards other dogs or people in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Golden Retriever character."* 

Note that the definition does not say Calm, Gentle, or Laid Back. Many people have the misguided idea that the Golden Retriever is supposed to be a laid back, sluggish dog that lays around all day in total contentment. That is NOT what the Golden Retriever is intended to be. 

The Golden Retriever is supposed to be an active friendly dog with a suitable disposition to fulfill the breed's intended purpose as a "Hunting Dog". Correct Temperament requires the Golden to possess the courage and fortitude necessary to go after wounded prey, subdue it and return it to the hunter. When the dog goes nose to nose with a wing tipped 12 pound goose it needs to possess the disposition to do whatever is needed to subdue the bird and bring it back. Calm and gentle doesn't exactly fit that picture, nor does it fit the temperament specified in the Breed Standard for the Golden Retriever.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed, I don't think hyper/active is a bad thing! Or wrong. Some lines are more laid back. A hyper dog that bites kids clothes and hands and plays and wrestles and is wound up does NOT necessarily have a wrong or bad temperament. 

But he STILL should not be *biting* in an aggressive manner.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> I guess I just am alarmed that the Golden breed, at least from what I'm reading posting boards, seems to have a higher number of puppies and young adult dogs that "actually snarls and lunges at a human in an aggressive manner".


But is the dog REALLY doing that? Often that's not the case at all. When dogs play, they lunge with teeth bared. They also jump at the playmate. And they snarl, growl, bark, etc. when they're doing it. 

I honestly believe that in a lot of situations, many are misreading the dog's intentions. Sometimes not, but often they are.

The terms aggression and dominance are being widely overused, IMO. You see it all the time. 

An example would be a scenerio like this: A kid falls on a sleeping dog, the dog jumps up snarling and snapping - and perhaps even bites the child, and voila......OMG the dog is aggressive!! Ummm.....no. It was asleep, and someTHING "attacked" it. The response was natural and protective, not aggressive.

I think one of the definitions of aggressive is "a DISPOSITION to behave aggressively". That means routinely being hostile, vicious or nasty. The INTENT is there to damage, inflict injury, etc. 

Intent is the key word. If a puppy is mouthing, nipping, playing....there's no intent to injure. The intent is to play in the only way they know. They must be taught that this does injure we weak skinned human types. It's not something they "know".


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Comments like this are pehaps part of the mis-information that confuses unsuspecting puppy buyers.
> 
> The Breed Standard defines the Golden Temperament as
> 
> ...


__________________________________________________________

I am not giving "mis-information that confuses unsuspecting puppy buyers". 
I NEVER said "sluggish dog that lays around all day in total contentment"

The definition says Friendly, reliable, trustworthy.

Maybe the 

"When the dog goes nose to nose with a wing tipped 12 pound goose it needs to possess the disposition to do whatever is needed to subdue the bird and bring it back. Calm and gentle doesn't exactly fit that picture" 

is misleading buyers to believe a golden should be aggressive which
by the way they are not supposed to be.

This is what we were talking about, aggressive and hyper temperaments
in goldens today.

Friendly, Reliable and Trustworthy are closer to calm and laid back, easy going if you prefer, in my opinion.
Main Entry: 1friend·ly Date: before 12th century 1*:* of, relating to, or befitting a friend: as a*:* *showing kindly interest and goodwill*b*:* *not hostile* <a _friendly_ merger offer>; _also_ *:* involving or coming from actions of one's own forces <_friendly_ fire> c*:* cheerful, comforting <the _friendly_ glow of the fire>2*:* *serving a beneficial or helpful purpose*3*:* easy to use or understand <_friendly_ computer software> —often used in combination <a reader-_friendly_ layout>4*:* compatible, accommodating <environmentally _friendly_ packaging> —often used in combination <a kid-_friendly_ restaurant>

Main Entry: 1re·li·able 
Date: 
1569 suitable or fit to be relied on *:* dependable

Main Entry: trust·wor·thy 
Date: 1714 *:* *worthy of confidence* *:* dependable <a _trustworthy_ guide> <_trustworthy_ information> 


Our service dogs can not be jumping off the walls, biting people,
and be so intent on their own drive to not be able to be reliable and trusted to do their job, that is courage and fortitude in my book.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I think one of the key statements in SC's quote from the breed standard is this:

*Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards other dogs or people in NORMAL SITUATIONS........*

Unfortunately, what we humans perceive as "normal" may be far different than what a dog perceives as normal.

And.....what one family views as normal behavior is not always acceptable to another.

And there you have the quandary. What is NORMAL?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well a Golden that barks at other dogs on walks lunging at the leash IMO has a bad temperament and is obnoxious. A golden that would snap at another dog waiting ringside for a show has a crap temperament. A Golden that would bite a person for touching its food dish has a bad temperament. A Golden that is afraid of thunder storms or 4th of July has a bad temperament. A Golden that growls at strangers on walks has a bad temperament. I would personally never breed a dog with any of those traits. There are plenty of dogs without those traits to use.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Ardeagold said:


> But is the dog REALLY doing that? Often that's not the case at all. When dogs play, they lunge with teeth bared. They also jump at the playmate. And they snarl, growl, bark, etc. when they're doing it.
> 
> I honestly believe that in a lot of situations, many are misreading the dog's intentions. Sometimes not, but often they are.
> 
> ...


I agree with Donna...Mine are always snarling and nipping at each other when they play.... 2 are very high (Hyper) energy.. are they controllable out in public, yes they are. I do agree also that alot of people think all goldens are family dogs and there very layed back.... I have a layed back one as well ... but if wildlife enters the picture hes up and gone.....


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Yikes! I know at least one of mine will protect me if it's needed...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Kimm said:


> Yikes! I know at least one of mine will protect me if it's needed...


I got one to Kim.....


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well a Golden that barks at other dogs on walks lunging at the leash IMO has a bad temperament and is obnoxious. A golden that would snap at another dog waiting ringside for a show has a crap temperament. A Golden that would bite a person for touching its food dish has a bad temperament. A Golden that is afraid of thunder storms or 4th of July has a bad temperament. A Golden that growls at strangers on walks has a bad temperament. I would personally never breed a dog with any of those traits. There are plenty of dogs without those traits to use.


That's good for any dog and I agree totally!.Another thing,I've seen,was too many submissive golden which is not a golden trait.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Playing rough with their buddies is fine! Normal!!


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Bad temperament or learned behavior? How do you know?

I have a Newf that you would say has a bad temperament. She barks and lunges at other dogs when on leash. Even those in the house that she lives with happily and playfully all day long. Off leash, she's a joy with those same dogs - and is very non agrressive with even a strange dog. She's been great with every rescue we've brought here.

Why? It's a LONG story.....but I will say this. It was LEARNED behavior from a bad experience as a young puppy. One dog caused it. We're still working on erasing that connection in her mind. She's better, but still tense on lead when in the company of other dogs. 

A dog that snaps at another.......for no reason, as far as you can see, doesn't mean there is no reason. There's a reason, you just don't know what it is. Does it mean that dog will snap at all dogs all the time? No. Maybe it just hates that particular dog.....for it's own reasons.

Touching food dishes is trained behavior, by us. Dogs naturally protect their food supply. That would be normal behavior IMO. We teach them that it's not acceptable in OUR society. But if that dog ever got lost and had to make it's own way even for a week or two, you'd better believe it would snap or bite anyone or anything that tried to take it's food.

Sometimes the fear of Tstorms and the 4th of July is also learned behavior. Was the dog ever caught outside in a bad storm? Are the human owners afraid of storms? 

Calling the fear of storms "bad temperament" is carrying it a bit too far IMO. For example: Is there anything at ALL that YOU'RE afraid of? If so, does it mean you have a bad temperament? Does that mean you shouldn't breed?

Oh...and sometimes, depending on the age of the dog, and depending on the human stranger....a dog will growl at an approaching stranger. Generally, I feel that they know something I don't, and I will listen to their intuition. 
They're usually VERY good indicators of who's safe and who's not. 

Growling at all strangers is not acceptable.....and I would consider that an indicator of a bad temperament.

All I'm trying to say is that your examples may...or may not...have validity. We've just got to learn to understand dog behavior before jumping to conclusions and placing labels where they may not apply.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Actually I am morbidly afraid of doctors, and I don't plan to breed.


I see your point Ardea. But I live in Florida. A dog here that is thunder phobic may as well be shipped out of state or euthanized. I would NEVER breed that. I think it's genetic... I just would NOT breed it. The vast majority of Goldens are NOT afraid of storms.

If I am walking around at midnight in a crack hood and the dog growls a little at a character, fine. But a dog that growls at any person he sees? No. Not cool. A dog that lunges and barks on walks and it's owners cannot contain it. Obnoxious. Not acceptable.

High standards? Maybe... But I think when it comes to health and temperament, there can be no allowances.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I agree with the growling at every stranger but not all strangers.... Last summer I was walking Maggie in our state park we has just came off the trails and a guy who looked to be homeless started walking towards me, he got about 5 feet from us and Maggie jumped in front of me and started body blocking me,trying to back me up, growling, showing her teeth and lunging at this guy, we walked really fast past him and once we were past him she still was looking back and growling and snapping. AS we were getting in the truck a policeman came up and asked if I had seen a guy, that looked like the one we passed...Well come to find out this guy was wanted for armed robbery and had a knife on him. So i dont know if all traits are so bad, just think it depends on the situation. And I will say this , I have had to go on a few home visits for the rescue and after meeting the people , I couldnt point my finger on it but something just didnt seem to sit right with me, so I have taken Maggie and seen how she reacted at the peoples houses and go off her feelings.... So far she hasnt been wrong yet....


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

:lol: No....I doubt you'd do well during a pregnancy if you're terrified of doctors. 

I understand what you're saying, but the "labeling" of dogs who may exhibit some of these behaviors some of the time, isn't fair, nor are they always a good indicator of temperament.

I believe that you can try your best to breed excellent temperament, and all breeders should do that, without fail, but sometimes even dogs that come from the very best lines of dogs with excellent temperaments....might growl at another, or might lunge at another dog/human while on lead, or they might become afraid of thunder.

There's no guarantee when it comes to genetics. You can't guarantee a perfect temperament, any more than you can guarantee that a particular breeding pair will throw perfectly healthy puppies who will all live 15+ years and die of old age.

And you certainly cannot predict "nurture". Many things can impact a dog during it's lifetime. They're just like us. Maybe we have bad temperaments some of the time......and NONE of us should breed. ROFL


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed w/both of ya 

And that's why I won't be getting preggo!!! LOL


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well a Golden that barks at other dogs on walks lunging at the leash IMO has a bad temperament and is obnoxious. A golden that would snap at another dog waiting ringside for a show has a crap temperament. A Golden that would bite a person for touching its food dish has a bad temperament. A Golden that is afraid of thunder storms or 4th of July has a bad temperament. A Golden that growls at strangers on walks has a bad temperament. I would personally never breed a dog with any of those traits. There are plenty of dogs without those traits to use.


I would think that most of these character traits are to do with how a dog is brought up...surely?? With the best genetics in the world a dog that is not socialized would lunge at other dogs...same if a dog has had to put up with its owner taking away its treats/food bowl at any opportunity...the dog will protect its stuff...nothing to do with the temperaments of its parents...I would definitely side with 'nurture' with character traits that are described above.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> A dog that lunges and barks on walks and it's owners cannot contain it. Obnoxious. Not acceptable.


A dog that lunges or barks at strangers on a walk is displaying poor behavior, but you really don't know whether it's a temperament problem or a socialization/training issue. In my experience, 99 out of 100 cases are due to inadequate socialization and insufficient training. 

Socialization and training issues aren't the dog's fault. The Owners failed to live up to their responsibilties.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Swampcollie said:


> Socialization and training issues aren't the dog's fault. The Owners failed to live up to their responsibilties.


I agree with this....it's like the food agression issues we've seen on the forum.... My opinion on food agression is that until we train our dogs not to protect their food (which is natural), they don't know not to do it.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I suspect some of the 'increase' in reporting is due to the fact that we have created an environment here where people can speak freely of their concerns......

A place where those of us who have 'been there-done that' can help them through the behavior, language, definitions and labels and encourage them to hang in there and work with their pup......


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Maybe my body language that I don't even realize I am exhibiting commands respect from dogs automatically, but I have never EVER had to train one of my personal dogs/puppies I have raised from babyhood not to bite me over food or to not bark at dogs on walks- for that matter, very few of my rescues either, including ones that were not handled by humans at all prior to coming to me. You should NOT have to teach a puppy that attacking you when you touch his dish is not cool. Your over all relationship (even if you're fairly inept- you still control the food, walks, play times, etc) with the dog should prevent that in the first place, unless the dog is a nut, IMO

Sabrina didn't exactly have a stellar upbringing in a chicken wire pen in the boonies, and to make my point I just stuck my hand in the dish of my now starving, zesty, recovering, underweight, brand new rescue - with no warning and no words spoken- and she put her ears back in a submissive position and wiggled and licked my hand. This is a normal dog with basically good genetic temperament.

I suppose I can say that a bad/inept owner or a really bad experience could create these issues in a nice, normal dog (especially the leash thing), but I'd bet in most cases, the dog has an inborn predisposition towards that type of behavior. I'm open for more discussion of this- but the above have always been my thoughts.

I stand firmly by my belief that 90% or more cases of fear of fireworks or thunder are genetic. It shows CLEAR genetic tendecies in several lines of Goldens and Whippets. It's a MAJOR problem here in Florida if your dog is thunder phobic. Yes, a dog who has his kennel stuck my lightning would naturally develop an understandable fear! But IMO a normal, stable dog does not freak out on the fourth of July in his owner's home or flip his lid when it thunders. Unless you SAW this dog have a life altering bad experience with fireworks or thunder, PLEASE do not breed him.

My dogs go to public city fireworks shows with me, and practice obedience with hand signals bc it's so loud out there they can't hear my voice. And their tails wag the whole time! They exhibit absolutely NO sign that they can even hear the fireworks (but yes, I know they can! LOL). My Whippet puppy was only four months old (barely) this 4th, and he played with a water bottle, tossing it in the air with glee, and wagging his tail and kissing children during the Pier 60 fireworks show among thick crowds of people. THAT is the temperament *I* want in my dogs, and should I go forward some day with producing Whippets, I want my dogs to be known above else for that wonderful, stable, fun, separation anxiety free temperament. A less stable dog might have been permenantly RUINED by attending a city fireworks display. A well bred dog will become permenantly immune to and happy around fire works from such an experience. 

And yes, separation anxiety is another HORRIBLE gentic thing that should NOT BE BRED! It is not a big issue in Goldens, but it is a terrible issue in *some* lines of Whippets- drooling, screaming, bar biting, self mutilation, howling... crate anxiety even when the owner is present (panting, drooling, shaking)... dogs like that should NOT BE BRED! Period.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I'm thinking and thinking about this- because I know that maybe my views are biased  Here's some more thoughts.

You won't bend me on the fireworks, thunder, or Whippet SA problem- I am firmly convinced I am right about those- that the owner can make it worse in a dog that was born with it for SURE, but that true SA, noise phobia, etc is a genetic disease. A dog that needs medication to handle a storm, a holiday, or being left in a crate for two hours should never be bred.

That said, here are my thoughts as I am reforming my opinion (maybe?) on food aggression, leash lunging, etc:

Maybe my experience is because without even knowing it, I prevent such mishaps from day one with my own dogs. For one, I tend to buy from good breeders. Even if I buy a BYB dog, I have only done so from a person who home raised a single litter in his or her kitchen. Children and other pets and neighbors were handling the puppies constantly, including at meal times, from day one.

When I bring a puppy home, I start walking them, and introducing them to dogs and people right away, because to me growing up to be a life long fruitloop is a bigger (and more frightening) risk than the small chance of contracting parvo or some other illness.

By a very tender age, my puppies are walking politely on a leash and wagging their tail (but not pulling or getting over excited) when they see another passerby.

I hand feed my puppies at least part of every meal for the first few weeks, and I touch and handle their food daily for most of their lives thereafter.

All these things may be why these problems never have been an issue for me- and I am firmly convinced a dog I raised in this manner that bit me over food randomly one day or barked and acted like an idiot on walks would have to truly be a lunatic by birth.

That said... the above doesn't explain all the dogs like Sabrina that still would never bite a person or be monsters on leash. The dogs who didn't have a good beginning, or any at all.

I also believe a dog that DOES behave that way for some reason other than genetics can be easily broken of it. A truly good temperament IMO can overcome nearly anything, and pretty quickly, once in the dog is in good hands.

I had one dog, Casey, that I could not break of food aggression. He came to me as an adult. I did everything by the book, and some things not by the book at the end just to try to save him. Monsters like that are born, not simply made. This dog was a danger to society. It wasn't his fault- but it was his reality.

OK I'll shut up now. I truly am fascinated by these types of discussions and as a potential breeder (who has whelped one litter that I didn't do the breeding on, but was a wonderful experiment in nature vs nurture bc the parents were FERAL lunatics) this doubly interests me. I honestly lie in bed thinking about this stuff! LOL


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I still disagree.

I believe that nature, nurture or a combination of both is what forms dog's behaviors. Just like humans.

I don't believe that nature (genetics) is the only factor in the majority of cases.

Sometimes it's only nature. Some dogs just aren't wired right, and no matter what you do, they'll be difficult, hostile, nervous, potentially dangerous dogs. But I find them to be the exception, rather than the rule.

Sometimes it's only nurture. Even well-meaning people can mess up a perfectly good puppy. And then there are those who aren't well meaning at all..........

Then there's the combo.....the dog that is shy, or lacks confidence as a pup, but ends up in a loving home with firm rules and guidelines will learn confidence and proper behavior. 

Should the same puppy end up in a less than acceptable environment, it may turn into a fearful, tense dog, lacking proper behavioral skills and could easily become a threat to other animals and humans alike. 

Most end up in the middle. And their behaviors announce it to the world. They have loving homes, and weak owners. They know what's right and wrong...and do as they please. They've absorbed their owner's fears, and behave as they've been taught. They've been spoiled, and ignored. So, they throw temper tantrums. IMO, most of the behaviors you've mentioned have been taught.......or, conversely, the dog hasn't been taught the difference between right and wrong.

The nature/nurture argument has gone round and round within the field of Psychiatry (for humans) for decades. Nobody really knows whether a person is "bad" because of nature or nurture.....but they do know that various stimuli over the years can definitely impact a human's psyche. Everybody has a breaking point. 

Get some sleep ACC......thinking about it doesn't help, unless you're doing a research study on it! (j/K!!)


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Agreed w/both of ya
> 
> And that's why I won't be getting preggo!!! LOL


What?!?!?!?!? And after I saved the gas money to come down there and help you out????

Hooch


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

This is a pretty interesting thead. Will read it tomorrow and get back with you guys when I am feeling better.

Hooch


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oh I sleep plenty hehe...

But stand behind my comments. My experience has proven me correct, and I have had over 200 rescue dogs come through my home in five years.

And you can bet... I WOULD NEVER IN A THOUSAND years breed a dog that after a month in my good care lunged on a leash or was afraid of storms. Never.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

There are just too many thousands of nice dogs out there that don't do that **** to breed one that does...


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