# Coming to line



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Denial of the retrieve is still one of the best ways I have seen to deal with this. Make sure you take your turn in the field throwing, and then when it is your turn to run, be prepared to not have your dog pick up a mark at all in the training session. Make sure you have a series of holding nblinds set up. While others in your rotation are running their dogs, get your dog out. Make your way through the holding blinds, and if the behaviour starts at all put the dog back in the truck. Frankly start that control right at the truck. The dogs needs to be sitting calmly in the crate before you give them permission to get out. If they are wild and disobedient at that point -- back in the box.

Now the paradox with this sort of problem is that many dogs do it only when on leash. My Bonnie can be a bit pully in a test situation. So when I was running her this summer, I kept the leash on her in the holding blinds, but then when called to line took it off to walk to the line, got her sat looking at the fall, and then held her collar and called for the bird. If the marks were run from two separate lines I also had her off lead between them. Now, I do reinforce heel position as part of my CC process after teaching it traditionally, so she had been through a process of reinforcing that standard off lead, and I find my dogs internalize that lesson well. Winter had better scores in the offlead portions of his Novice obedience runs than his onlead!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks  

I think I had to deny Faelan his retrieve once and found this method extremely effective. And since my groups frequently have multiple rotations, it did not prevent him from having any retrieves that day.

Taking your turn(s) working so your dog is resting can help bring out the mis-mannered behaviors due to excitement in most dogs  Not being allowed out of the crate if they are not sitting and waiting for their release really helps set them up for success in making it to the line.



sterregold said:


> Denial of the retrieve is still one of the best ways I have seen to deal with this. Make sure you take your turn in the field throwing, and then when it is your turn to run, be prepared to not have your dog pick up a mark at all in the training session. Make sure you have a series of holding nblinds set up. While others in your rotation are running their dogs, get your dog out. Make your way through the holding blinds, and if the behaviour starts at all put the dog back in the truck. Frankly start that control right at the truck. The dogs needs to be sitting calmly in the crate before you give them permission to get out. If they are wild and disobedient at that point -- back in the box.
> 
> Now the paradox with this sort of problem is that many dogs do it only when on leash. My Bonnie can be a bit pully in a test situation. So when I was running her this summer, I kept the leash on her in the holding blinds, but then when called to line took it off to walk to the line, got her sat looking at the fall, and then held her collar and called for the bird. If the marks were run from two separate lines I also had her off lead between them. Now, I do reinforce heel position as part of my CC process after teaching it traditionally, so she had been through a process of reinforcing that standard off lead, and I find my dogs internalize that lesson well. Winter had better scores in the offlead portions of his Novice obedience runs than his onlead!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We had 2 of the JH judges tell us if the dogs were having a hard time with their line manners, try taking the leash off. It did seem to work.
Also one said that when you come to the line all SIX feet have to be on the ground...2 of yours and 4 of theirs....or you have to go back and try it again.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

LOL - you mean the human half of the team can't be coming on their butt????:doh::doh:



hotel4dogs said:


> We had 2 of the JH judges tell us if the dogs were having a hard time with their line manners, try taking the leash off. It did seem to work.
> Also one said that when you come to the line all SIX feet have to be on the ground...2 of yours and 4 of theirs....or you have to go back and try it again.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, that was at the water series, and it was a mud slide!!! 



Sunrise said:


> LOL - you mean the human half of the team can't be coming on their butt????:doh::doh:


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I dont get to work in a group too much as we dont have training much now that it is winter. 

I have ben working hard on this area. I have working extremely hard on heel. I am not using a e-collar only verbal corrections. I take Jige out to different areas that we have used for training and walk him at a nice easy pace. He doesnt know if I have sent my son off to throw a bird or not. Sometime he gets a bumper sometimes not. I also take him out and make him honor my sisters dogs runs and my pit bulls games of fetch. This we do in different areas too so he doesnt think it only applies in the yard. His honors have gotten so much better. He started to break once on wednesday and I had no leash on him but was able to grab his collar before he got a way.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

General V said:


> I dont get to work in a group too much as we dont have training much now that it is winter.
> 
> I have ben working hard on this area. I have working extremely hard on heel. I am not using a e-collar only verbal corrections. I take Jige out to different areas that we have used for training and walk him at a nice easy pace. He doesnt know if I have sent my son off to throw a bird or not. Sometime he gets a bumper sometimes not. I also take him out and make him honor my sisters dogs runs and my pit bulls games of fetch. This we do in different areas too so he doesnt think it only applies in the yard. His honors have gotten so much better. He started to break once on wednesday and I had no leash on him but was able to grab his collar before he got a way.



Try this. Heel the dog off lead and carry a bumper in your left armpit. You will get the dog heeling and looking at you and the bumper. Give him verbal praise along the way for doing the right thing. Stop and when the dog sits, throw the bumper as a reward.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I like Carol Cassity's drill (and what Shelly was talking about as well) of setting up several blinds in a row and lots of hunt test sounds (duck calls, someone yelling "guns up", etc). If the dog is calm and able to walk from one blind to the next without a problem, they get the mark. If not, they return to the blind and try again. No manners, no retrieves. Good manners, then they get to run.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

What has worked nicely for Oriana is "reverse momentum" I believe the term is. As we heel to the line if she forges even slightly I take one step backwards and freeze. I then tell her to heel and do not move till she returns to heel position. Once she starts to get it I dropped the verbal "heel" correction and stay silent. When we are progressing properly in heel position I tell her "good" softly. I was really impressed how quickly it fixed that problem in training. At tests it helps also, but we are not as fluent there as in training. :doh:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My pro calls those "heel backs", and we use them for a couple of other things, too, like working on memory. A great tool!




AmbikaGR said:


> What has worked nicely for Oriana is "reverse momentum" I believe the term is. As we heel to the line if she forges even slightly I take one step backwards and freeze. I then tell her to heel and do not move till she returns to heel position. Once she starts to get it I dropped the verbal "heel" correction and stay silent. When we are progressing properly in heel position I tell her "good" softly. I was really impressed how quickly it fixed that problem in training. At tests it helps also, but we are not as fluent there as in training. :doh:


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

We use it walking towards the dinner bowl!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> We use it walking towards the dinner bowl!



Well you are just plain SADISTIC!!! :bowl:


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> What has worked nicely for Oriana is "reverse momentum" I believe the term is. As we heel to the line if she forges even slightly I take one step backwards and freeze. I then tell her to heel and do not move till she returns to heel position. Once she starts to get it I dropped the verbal "heel" correction and stay silent. When we are progressing properly in heel position I tell her "good" softly. I was really impressed how quickly it fixed that problem in training. At tests it helps also, but we are not as fluent there as in training. :doh:


This is what I do with Riot. Although I often have to take a few steps back, since he doesn't seem to notice if it's only one step. I think he would prefer that I just stay in the car and let him do it himself :doh: 

As for breaking, I have started saying "sit" multiple times to Riot before saying his name to release him. It makes him think, and have to actually listen to the word instead of just going on any sort of noise.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> Well you are just plain SADISTIC!!! :bowl:


Flip would agree with ya there! I use my field heeling word and not my obedience heeling word because what I get does not even slightly resemble what I expect on an obedience heel!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

DNL2448 said:


> I like Carol Cassity's drill (and what Shelly was talking about as well) of setting up several blinds in a row and lots of hunt test sounds (duck calls, someone yelling "guns up", etc). If the dog is calm and able to walk from one blind to the next without a problem, they get the mark. If not, they return to the blind and try again. No manners, no retrieves. Good manners, then they get to run.


Excellent drill. You might also try a NRM for bad behavior before putting the dog back in the crate.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I do not let my dog drag me to the line. She has the tendency to want to do it. I vary my pace approaching the line. I will stop, back up, speed up, slow down, etc and I expect my dog to pay attention to me and stay with me. If she gets out of line she gets a collar pop and backward movement. If she makes a mistake I make her do it again the correct way before proceeding. This has worked really well for me.

EDIT: She is better off-leash and has no problems honoring.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> I use the Premack principles in training, and consider using the opportunity of moving forward to the line or being released to the bumper or bird a great tool for teaching line manners.* I wonder if correcting, but then allowing the dog to go for his bird, re-inforces the behavior getting to the line.*


This is a really interesting point. I wonder if it depends on your approach. If your dog pulls, you collar pop, and move forward I can see the being the problem. However, if my dog makes a mistake and tries to pull forward I will back up and make her do it again. Sure I will collar pop too. I don't progress until she does it correctly.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

DNL2448 said:


> I like Carol Cassity's drill (and what Shelly was talking about as well) of setting up several blinds in a row and lots of hunt test sounds (duck calls, someone yelling "guns up", etc). If the dog is calm and able to walk from one blind to the next without a problem, they get the mark. If not, they return to the blind and try again. No manners, no retrieves. Good manners, then they get to run.


Yep, and I also do a collar correction where I step 2 or 3 steps and slide my foot back. If the dog forges ahead NO BIRD and back to the blind and if need be back to the truck and in the kennel. Just because the dog is high drive doesn't mean they can't have line manners. Bad line manners is a precursor to failure.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> We have all seen them, some of us have even struggled with them. You know, the dogs that have no line manners. They
> 
> - hop to the line on 1 or 2 back legs
> - whine, cry and whip around trying to slip their leashes
> ...


This is a perpetually useful topic because the humans in field sports won't effectively deal with it. There was a longtime field trialer named Oscar Brewer who had many FC's, judged many times, and even sat on the board of the AKC. I stood beside him at a trial in Omaha as he noted "We breed these dogs to be as insanely birdy as we possibly can make them, and then set up tests that bring it out while requiring them to deny their insticts to the extreme." But if that were not so, there would be no venue wherein we could establish hard evidence of both the real qualities in the _dogs_, and the real qualities of _training_. Here's where I'm going with this.

When you choose a pup from top field breeding (any breed) you're looking for some important things. Of course we want physical soundness; good hips & eyes, and so on. We would like good conformation et al. But on top of that, we're looking for excellent nose, stellar marking & memory, bidability/willingness to work with a handler, and at the top of the list; DESIRE! With a lesser degree of desire the dog would be easier to manage, but would also not perform nearly as well on either marks or blinds (believe it or not). C'mon, tell me who wouldn't enjoy watching an 80 pound Golden line a 325 yard blind with the same speed as if he were after a fresh shot flyer? 
:--happy:

It is the highest art in field training to successfully balance maximum desire & ability with efficient control. If you don't test _both_ at high levels, it is not feasable to establish baseline norms for excellence.

Before moving forward I want to point out why I thought this question was so well asked. All those behaviors that were so well described are among the commonest seen in quality dogs in multiple fieldwork venues. That doesn't irritate me as much as when I see it in training groups, but it's troubling in both. Believe it or not, it's something that can be controlled in nearly all of even the more severe cases. The real problem, as in most cases, is the human element, not the wonderful dog.

Now look at the last sentence for a major part of the problem. Yes, I'm talking about the part that talks about "moving on to Senior". Among the many two-edged swords involved in fieldwork, it is Junior/Started-type stakes where many fine retrievers begin their downward spiral. I'll elaborate more on this at the end of this post.


Sunrise said:


> We see them at tests and we see them at our training groups. We hope we are not annoying people or taking too much of the groups time if it is our dog.


I'll tell you this, you'll not ever be chastised in my training group for taking all the time you need in dealing with this issue. You may, however, save yourself and your training group some time and hurt feelings by telling them up front that you may be taking some extra time to deal with one of the sport's most pervasive and important issues during the day. Let them know you'll need to have them work within the framework of the corrective measures you have decided to use, and that you appreciate their suggestions, but have chosen a path that you intend to be faithful to, and would appreciate their help.


Sunrise said:


> It is embarrassing and takes all of our strength to keep these dogs from charging out.


One thing neither you nor your dog can afford is to allow your personal feelings to get in the way of your dog's best interests. Embarrrassment is not useful to either of you, and no one has a right to embarrass you about having a dog with enough desire to have this issue to deal with. They do these things because they're _good_ dogs, not bad ones.


Sunrise said:


> Some say it is a side effect of a highly driven dog.


It is, combined with inadequate training and maintenance. It is all too often made exponentially worse by continually being re-exposed to an environment in which it is promoted, like tests and trials.


Sunrise said:


> I use the Premack principles in training, and consider using the opportunity of moving forward to the line or being released to the bumper or bird a great tool for teaching line manners. I wonder if correcting, but then allowing the dog to go for his bird, re-inforces the behavior getting to the line.


Of course it does. Dogs behave as they do in the field as a result of their expectations. The ways in which we structure events in the field on our training days work to form our dog's expectations in that environment by the triggers consistenly existing there. The events, sights, sounds, smells etc combine to give our dogs a set of expectations that act both for good and for bad. We're in charge of all those things, but often allow our passion for what we think we want from our dogs to cloud our ability to see the ways our dog's behavior may be eroding before our eyes. 

We all too often don't see a problem until we're being "embarrassed" by a behavior that has already become advanced and out of control. What do we usually do in response? We seek some course of action that changes that behavior...RIGHT NOW! It's natural for us to feel that way. But it denies the core issues of the problem, and a realistic way of reestablishing control of events. What we need to begin to do is to change our dog's expectations, and to do it in a manner that is long term, rather than short term.

The term _behavior change_ has replaced the term _behavior modification_ because in operant conditioning, one does not modify behavior, but instead one modifies the environment (antecedents and consequences) that then results in behavior change. That's why the best advice from top trainers will nearly always begin with "First of all, stop running tests." Then we'll discuss how to change some of the dynamics of our training sessions, along with some of our interactions with the dog that will change what the dog expects when faced with triggers that tend to spin them out of control.


Sunrise said:


> Can we discuss the various ways of teaching these dogs how to do us proud while coming to the line and delivering their birds? Honoring another dog?


Let me start with this peice of advice; Don't look for a magic bullet. There are none. There is no one drill or treatment that will cure this. Besides, you don't want this 'cured'. You want it controlled.

Junior/Started-type stakes (or classes) are where most people begin, and they can be lots of fun. They are valuable to clubs in attracting new members, and provide an easy way for many people to participate. Don't we all know that? But we get so emersed in our enjoyment that we sacrifice our dogs to behaviors we often actually ignore in behalf of ribbons. Then one day we notice, "Holy cow this has gotten out of control! Somebody please help!" Here we are. I'm wondering now how many of you are really willing to do what it takes? It may not be exactly what you think. But there are probably parts of the treatment you've already thought of. It's the _whole package_ that very few have the self discipline to do and to stick with.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

What a great post, Evan!! Can't wait to hear more! You are so right, it is all about being consistent and maintaining high standards, throughout the life of the dog's field career.
"Never say never" and I learned that the hard way, watching good old steady Fisher fail two master tests by breaking!

Others here have covered it, I will say my protocol for all dogs walking to the line is as follows:

1. Walked to the line on a slip lead (all dogs) or a pinch collar. If the dog forges it is a sharp snap on the collar and "HEEL" and we walk backwards and sit. The dog is not DRAGGED back it is sharply popped and expected to heel back on his own. In field work "Heel" means GO BACKWARDS so after the dog is seated in heel position and under control, I say "Heel" but do not move myself, however the DOG is expected to get up and go backwards a step or two before we proceed. 
2. Always, always, always we make turns to the LEFT so the dog has to go backwards out of the handler's way. This means walking to the line, approaching holding blinds, coming out of holding blinds, leaving the line. NEVER is the dog allowed to make an about turn to the right and forge around the handler. 
3. Dog sits behind a holding blind with his back to the blind. Handler stands in front of him and faces the field. You will be amazed how this remote sit in the holding blind eliminates the dog jumping around the blind, going over or under, climbing the handler, etc etc.
4. Dogs wear a pinch collar and collar tab for steadiness at the line. The tab is held limply as to exert no pressure. If the dog moves while watching birds go down or tries to break, it is a sharp pop back on the tab, dog must re-heel itself. If you set up this loose-lead steady for young dogs they figure it out very quickly and is a really nice transition to off-lead steadiness.

Honoring:
I should make a little video of this. Here is how I trained Slater to honor and I like what I am seeing.
1. Do not begin honoring until the dog is loose-leash steady on his own marks.
2. Begin honoring far away from the working dog and gradually move up.
3. Assume an "honoring stance" that is different than your "running marks" stance. For me I turn and stand next to the dog so that he is pointing forward but I am pointing at him on his right side. I cross my arms in front of my body. My commands in honoring are "SIT -- NO" 
4. First phase is honoring while holding a bumper. This usually helps reduce noise, keeps his mind on his own bumper and gives him something to do. Your dog will wear the pinch collar and leash, and use it if he tries to get up. After he has watched the other dog be released, say HEEL and have him back up into heel position, then turn away to your LEFT so he has to back up further to leave the line. Let him hold his bumper until you have heeled well away from the honoring station, then have him sit, take the bumper and throw him some fun bumpers. What you are teaching him is that he has his own bumper to worry about, not someone else's.
2. Next phase when he is completely steady with the bumper-in-mouth honoring, is to instead set the bumper on the ground behind him while he honors. When you heel off the line, pick up the bumper and throw him a fun bumper. Again, if he moves while honoring correct him with the pinch collar and a "NO -- SIT."
3. Last phase is honoring with the bumper in the car. When he is released from the honor, heel back to the car and throw fun bumpers. You will always have this available to you and can reward him at a test exactly like this. 

This is something that will take months to develop, not a few days. Consistency and high standards are the key, but I like this because it leaves something in the honor for the dog. At this point Slater is honoring very well and we are starting to do remote honors still with bumper in mouth. Hope this helps.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I too look forward to learning more 

I will say, I personally will not let a dog go for a mark or blind without first having minded his manners - and I did learn long ago that our dogs do not embarrass us LOL they are dogs and do not dream of ways to embarrass us or spite us; they do what works. 

But the methods that work? I think there might be more ways than most of us can think up and I truly am eager to learn! 



EvanG said:


> This is a perpetually useful topic because the humans in field sports won't effectively deal with it. There was a longtime field trialer named Oscar Brewer who had many FC's, judged many times, and even sat on the board of the AKC. I stood beside him at a trial in Omaha as he noted "We breed these dogs to be as insanely birdy as we possibly can make them, and then set up tests that bring it out while requiring them to deny their insticts to the extreme." But if that were not so, there would be no venue wherein we could establish hard evidence of both the real qualities in the _dogs_, and the real qualities of _training_. Here's where I'm going with this.
> 
> When you choose a pup from top field breeding (any breed) you're looking for some important things. Of course we want physical soundness; good hips & eyes, and so on. We would like good conformation et al. But on top of that, we're looking for excellent nose, stellar marking & memory, bidability/willingness to work with a handler, and at the top of the list; DESIRE! With a lesser degree of desire the dog would be easier to manage, but would also not perform nearly as well on either marks or blinds (believe it or not). C'mon, tell me who wouldn't enjoy watching an 80 pound Golden line a 325 yard blind with the same speed as if he were after a fresh shot flyer?
> :--happy:
> ...


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

EvanG said:


> Junior/Started-type stakes (or classes) are where most people begin, and they can be lots of fun. They are valuable to clubs in attracting new members, and provide an easy way for many people to participate. Don't we all know that? But we get so emersed in our enjoyment that we sacrifice our dogs to behaviors we often actually ignore in behalf of ribbons. Then one day we notice, "Holy cow this has gotten out of control! Somebody please help!" Here we are. I'm wondering now how many of you are really willing to do what it takes? It may not be exactly what you think. But there are probably parts of the treatment you've already thought of. It's the _whole package_ that very few have the self discipline to do and to stick with.


Evan, I am ashamed to say you pegged me to a T with this. Let me raise my hand and say I am willing to do what it takes. It may be too late to get Dooley MH level ready, but I would really like at least a SH. And I really, REALLY do not want to screw up the pup, Tag.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Evan, thank you for a very valuable commentary on the balance of desire, ability and control.

I am close to someone in my training group who has a very talented dog. Five months ago he decided to stop hunt testing just so that he could address some training issues. He also commented that his focus was training a dog, not hunt testing. He decided to forego all hunt testing and instead spend his time training and hunting his dog. After the issues are cleared up he might resume hunt testing.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Anney,

I’m going to start out by using much of your very good post as a basis for my remarks because it contains not only good ideas, but also quite a few suggestions and observations I expect from many who are taking part in our discussion. So I’ll just take some of your content and add additional comments. We can then discuss any or all of it.


K9-Design said:


> 1. Walked to the line on a slip lead (all dogs) or a pinch collar. If the dog forges it is a sharp snap on the collar and "HEEL" and we walk backwards and sit. The dog is not DRAGGED back it is sharply popped and expected to heel back on his own. In field work "Heel" means GO BACKWARDS so after the dog is seated in heel position and under control, I say "Heel" but do not move myself, however the DOG is expected to get up and go backwards a step or two before we proceed.


Let’s first establish that all these ideas are framed in the context of training sessions because a dog with this problem only belongs there, not at a test or trial where it continues to become worse. There are a few important reasons why I do not suggest taking a dog all the way to the line on leash while training. 

1. The leash (and collar) is a trigger.
2. Taking the leash on & off on line is yet another set of triggers.
3. Other than Junior/Started tests you can’t take them to the line on leash.
4. When you take them all the way to the line on leash you surrender training opportunities that the leash may cover up instead of training through them.

Coming into the holding blinds, especially the last one, with the dog on leash is a great idea, and your treatment is good with regard to surging. It’s important that you do not drag your dog, but rather use pops/tugs combined with a command to “Heel” to move them opposite their out of control momentum forward. I also like that you require the dog to come to you, rather than allowing the dog to handle you backward.


K9-Design said:


> 2. Always, always, always we make turns to the LEFT so the dog has to go backwards out of the handler's way. This means walking to the line, approaching holding blinds, coming out of holding blinds, leaving the line. NEVER is the dog allowed to make an about turn to the right and forge around the handler.


”Always” is a dirty word! Its twin is “Never”. A better rule of thumb would be “Consistently do what the dog needs in the moment.” Generally, turn a left-side-only dog left, or a right-side-only dog right in those situations while being willing to make a change according to how you read your dog.


K9-Design said:


> 3. Dog sits behind a holding blind with his back to the blind. Handler stands in front of him and faces the field. You will be amazed how this remote sit in the holding blind eliminates the dog jumping around the blind, going over or under, climbing the handler, etc etc.


Excellent advice, and a good rule of thumb.


K9-Design said:


> 4. Dogs wear a pinch collar and collar tab for steadiness at the line. The tab is held limply as to exert no pressure. If the dog moves while watching birds go down or tries to break, it is a sharp pop back on the tab, dog must re-heel itself. If you set up this loose-lead steady for young dogs they figure it out very quickly and is a really nice transition to off-lead steadiness.


That would depend on the age and level of development of the dog in question. Once we begin Basics the slip cord begins to go away in favor of heeling stick corrections for failure to sit. When a dog creeps, or any of the afore-mentioned behaviors, it is a violation of “Sit”. That is the command enforced for such infractions.


K9-Design said:


> Honoring:





K9-Design said:


> I should make a little video of this. Here is how I trained Slater to honor and I like what I am seeing.


I use honoring to promote steadiness standards overall, and it begins with puppies by age 4 months in most cases. As to video, anyone having issues like this should try to post up videos that demonstrate typical sessions depicting the behavior.


K9-Design said:


> 1. Do not begin honoring until the dog is loose-leash steady on his own marks.


I begin honoring when the pup is solid on his/her “sit” command, and is beginning to understand not going until sent. Steadiness is a process, and honoring is one of our best tools for advancing the process.


K9-Design said:


> 2. Begin honoring far away from the working dog and gradually move up.


Exactly!


K9-Design said:


> 3. Assume an "honoring stance" that is different than your "running marks" stance. For me I turn and stand next to the dog so that he is pointing forward but I am pointing at him on his right side. I cross my arms in front of my body. My commands in honoring are "SIT -- NO"


That’s a good idea because it sets up an expectation of steadiness in association with other dogs & handlers present. That stance becomes a physical cue that you can use consistently at tests and trials.

I suggest one change; turn “No” into “No bird – sit”. By far, one of the most over used words used by dog trainers is “No”. “No” does not give a dog a job. It doesn’t tell them to do anything, so the only way they can comply with it is to stop what they’re doing. They’re sitting. You don’t want them to stop sitting. You want them to continue. So, when you say “No bird”, make that what you say as you assume your honoring posture, which supports the act of honoring. They’re compliance is to sit more, not less. Think like a dog!


K9-Design said:


> 4. First phase is honoring while holding a bumper. This usually helps reduce noise, keeps his mind on his own bumper and gives him something to do. Your dog will wear the pinch collar and leash, and use it if he tries to get up. After he has watched the other dog be released, say HEEL and have him back up into heel position, then turn away to your LEFT so he has to back up further to leave the line. Let him hold his bumper until you have heeled well away from the honoring station, then have him sit, take the bumper and throw him some fun bumpers. What you are teaching him is that he has his own bumper to worry about, not someone else's.


As long as the dog is force fetched I think holding a bumper is a good idea. I soon move to a bird, and then to nothing as the standard deepens. I teach two-sided heeling in all my dogs, so my rule of thumb is to heel the dog away from the action, whichever direction it is. I put the dog on the side that will allow me to push that way, rather than pull. Don’t let the bumpers & birds become a crutch, though. You won’t be able to do this under judgment. Phase them out over a course of weeks.


K9-Design said:


> 2. Next phase when he is completely steady with the bumper-in-mouth honoring, is to instead set the bumper on the ground behind him while he honors. When you heel off the line, pick up the bumper and throw him a fun bumper. Again, if he moves while honoring correct him with the pinch collar and a "NO -- SIT."


Two things here; try to rid yourself of incessantly saying “No”. Don’t use a command as a warning shot – trying to avoid misbehavior instead of dealing with it and training through it. If you’re going to put that bumper back there, insist that he deal with it on your terms. Just command “Sit” as you toss it there. Then “Fetch” as you leave the line. Try to evolve out of this practice over a short period. This can quickly become a crutch as you continue it.


K9-Design said:


> 3. Last phase is honoring with the bumper in the car. When he is released from the honor, heel back to the car and throw fun bumpers. You will always have this available to you and can reward him at a test exactly like this.


The last phase of honoring occurs the day you decide to retire the dog from fieldwork! May I suggest that you do your dog another favor, and throw far fewer fun bumpers…period! First of all, most trainers throw far too many of them, and even make it so routine that as the dog advances his focus is taken from the work in the field because he’s anticipating his always-present fun bumpers at the end. The fun needs to be his job, not recess afterwards.


K9-Design said:


> This is something that will take months to develop, not a few days. Consistency and high standards are the key, but I like this because it leaves something in the honor for the dog. At this point Slater is honoring very well and we are starting to do remote honors still with bumper in mouth. Hope this helps.


It will help a great deal in the long term, but only when you evolve out of it into a real life state with no bumpers as bribes. The final product of your efforts must be obedience; virtue being its own reward.

Much more on the treatment for unsteadiness is yet to come, however!

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi Evan, thanks for the commentary, I appreciate it. 
I will say as I read through it several times I thought "Well that's what the books tell people to do but I've changed it to suit me for xyz reason(s)." Most of what I do in training is for a specific reason that jives with me and the dog I have. I think that's the beauty of training, as we've said before, not every method works the same for every dog and handler, and to be a good trainer you have to find what works and what makes sense for you.

One thing that I've found regarding the wearing a leash to the line every time in training, is that it is just like the ecollar. Dogs still wear an ecollar 100% of the time in training, right? Admittedly, watching someone creep to the line with their dog off leash, reheeling it 50 times and giving corrections with the collar or stick is not my idea of fun. To me that is practicing all those bad behaviors, and as much as we preach to do this sort of obedience at home, truth is most people don't (or don't enough). All of that is eliminated by walking them to the line on a slip lead. It just becomes part of the routine. Personally with my own dogs I walk them to behind the line on their slip lead, I sit them next to the bird hanger or gun stand, take the lead off and put it away, pick up the gun, ready my duck call or whatever I need, then we heel together the last few feet to the line. Works for me


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> One thing that I've found regarding the wearing a leash to the line every time in training, is that it is just like the ecollar. *Dogs still wear an ecollar 100% of the time in training, right*?


Yes, you bet! Here's what I see as the contrast. The e-collar _is_ on 100% of the time. That is a constant. The leash & collar go on and come off, and that is _not_ a constant. More in a moment.


K9-Design said:


> Admittedly, watching someone creep to the line with their dog off leash, reheeling it 50 times and giving corrections with the collar or stick is not my idea of fun. To me that is practicing all those bad behaviors, and as much as we preach to do this sort of obedience at home, truth is most people don't (or don't enough). All of that is eliminated by walking them to the line on a slip lead.


In my experience, the constant use of the leash in this way only eliminates the problems in _that_ moment, and does not deal with the problem long term. That's the problem with covering over training. As you go along over many tests the risk rises of line manner issues emerging and growing because they haven't been managed adequately during training. But this also leads to my treatment, which is not the usual "reheeling it 50 times and giving corrections with the collar or stick". That's insanity; doing the same thing again and again, while expecting different results.


K9-Design said:


> It just becomes part of the routine.


I would substitute "ritual" for "routine". And for your dog that ritual sets up an expectation. Obedience developed that way requires the ritual. I hope I'm being clear about this.


K9-Design said:


> Personally with my own dogs I walk them to behind the line on their slip lead, I sit them next to the bird hanger or gun stand, take the lead off and put it away, pick up the gun, ready my duck call or whatever I need, then we heel together the last few feet to the line. Works for me


And I hope it continues to work for you. My suspicion is that you probably have dogs that are too good for this to work in the long run, and the problem will be harder to control later. Next post; my suggested treatment.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

EvanG said:


> My suspicion is that you probably have dogs that are too good for this to work in the long run, and the problem will be harder to control later. Next post; my suggested treatment.
> 
> EvanG


Ahh you flatter as you kill! LOL

Evan are you planning to go to the GRCA national in St. Louis this year?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I may. I still haven't decided. I have a couple friends who may come along for a day or two. I take you're coming?

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

EvanG said:


> I may. I still haven't decided. I have a couple friends who may come along for a day or two. I take you're coming?
> 
> EvanG



But of course! I drove through STL to get to the Colorado national last year so I know the drive is not to bad....or maybe it's all relative, and it's just enormously better than driving all the way to Colorado.....


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

There have been many excellent ideas her on this topic. I just wanted to add that when my dogs are puppies, they still come out of the car and have to sit and walk next to me with treats to the line. In the very early stages with a young pup the cookies will work and it helps establish a pattern for future expectations. This all happens in the under 6 month stage before CC and FF. Usually by then they have the game figured out quite well and food would no longer interest them, but the standards haven't changed and the dogs transition quite well into taking more responsibility for their behavior.  The dogs are off lead from the start but drag a line as puppies and later transition to a short tab as steadiness builds. My current dog at 9 months is steady in training and is excellent on her marks. The good line manners and control improve marking skills as the dog is more focused on the job.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I make mine walk to the line on leash 100% of the time too. We haven't really trained much with holding blinds, but have talked about it. The ground i too frozen right now to get the stakes in though. I also make her sit after the last mark until I have clipped the leash back on and told her we are going. Then we'll honor, then I'll put her up.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I like this drill from Glenda Brown as well:

Keep Your Rear On The Groud


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

It may work out best to produce a new You Tube video to show my technique for controlling dogs that chronically surge at heel, especially in the working environment. It's not easy to describe, and many people tend to go off the deep end when I try to write anything about pressure applications on the Intenet.
:--appalled:

The hard part will be finding a good subject since none of mine are allowed to surge. I've got a real stemwinder, though, so maybe I can catch some footage of him this week.

EvanG


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