# have no clue of what i'm going do



## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi i'm getting feed up with Shelley she is one bad dog and will not learn. She gets walked every day for an hour and half too 2 hours, Most of it off lead runing ,swimming or both. When we get home i let her rest for half hour then i do training with her for 15 minutes. Then after training i sit down pat her and talk to her. Even after doing all that at might time she digs a big hole,chews the plants and has even began ripping wire out of the house that we put there to stop mice getting in. She has plenty of toys to play with but won't. My dad is getting feed up with he doesn't have much patience and can be a bit mean eg kick dog or throw something at her. 

A bit about her background i got her from a breeder at 14 weeks old within those 14 weeks she was kept in a cement kennel run with only one toy between all pups and mum. She hardly got any human contact only got a pat here and there when feed. She doesn't have much focuss on humans at all, all her focuss and loyalty lies with dogs. I'm getting that angry with her i'm thinking of giving her up. If all goldens are going to be like she is i don't think i want this breed anymore. I never had this problem with Einstein even when he was a puppy. Einstein was brought up differently at his breeders he was kept inside and from 4 weeks was taken outside daily. 

Shelley seems to be doing all this naughty behaviour at night time when were all in bed so she doesn't get caught and told off. My dad is getting feed up and wants me to muzzle her and tie her up and gave no freedon. I'm thinking of doing this myself actually cause the house is up for sale we can't have her destroying it. All the behaviourist seem to say is it may be better off if she was rehomed to someone who wants 1 dog and 1 dog only.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

You need to take a serious look at crating her at night for her safety as well as the well being of your home. It sounds like she is kept outside at night which I understand is common there. You also need to talk to your dad to stop him from physically punishing your dog. Good luck to you.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Oaklys Dad said:


> You need to take a serious look at crating her at night for her safety as well as the well being of your home. It sounds like she is kept outside at night which I understand is common there. You also need to talk to your dad to stop him from physically punishing your dog. Good luck to you.


I agree with Rob..... CRATE her at night, this way she cant get into any trouble. Mine cant be trusted while IM gone so they are crated and we arent talking puppies here. Maybe her being outside is part of the problem. Goldens like to be with there people. Maybe walk her at night, I know 1-2 hours a day of exersice isnt enough for any of mine.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

All of the physical activity she is getting is probably wonderful - why a behaviourist and not just a trainer? While I don't think I have ever said for someone to look into trying to find a different home for a rambuncous pup I might consider it with you and your circumstances due to you saying your father might kick or throw something at her. That reaction is even more detrimental to the mental health of Shelley. When is all this physical activity taking place?? In the morning?? And then what?? Can the walks, run, etc be broken into two or more segments per day with one closer to nighttime? Please remember that abuse is abuse, regardless of the degree, and she or any other dog has never done anything to warrant it.


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## jlc's mom (Dec 21, 2007)

I your dad is hurting her get rid of her! She doe not deserve to be punished like that!


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Sharlin is sooooooo right. Kicking a dog or throwing something at the poor thing is considered abuse. Please look into a new home for him where he will get the love and training that he so desperately needs. This poor dog needs to be rescued from that sort of treatment! I'm sorry, but reading about these types of things infuriates me to no end.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I will repeat what many member have already said....crate her. When you can't watch her, then you need to crate her. So at night, she is in the crate. When you need to leave for a short while during the day, crate her. When you can watch her you have so much more control. If she tries to do something you put a stop to it. Let me illustrate and example of stopping her:

I have a puppy right now that tries to chew on the carpet. Someone advised just to keep him away from the carpet, but that really solves nothing because he should sit there and leave it alone. So, I watch him. If he tries to chew on it I tell him no and lift his head away from it for a second. This may happen several times, but if you are patient and steady the dog eventually learns that you mean it and will enforce it. Needless to say, my pup doesn't chew on the carpet anymore because he knows I won't let him.


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## Victorialands (Dec 2, 2008)

jessi mom said:


> I your dad is hurting her get rid of her! She doe not deserve to be punished like that!


Agreed, and I dont say that to be mean, but I am speaking as the mom of an abused dog. Hitting her will only make her revert. She will never ever learn that way. I have spent months now working on a dog that was abused both physicaly and mentaly, It is hard to get her to focus on anything she just tries to get away. 

I would definetly look into a walk in the morning and night, if possible. Also try and make the walks more demanding on her brain as well as just tireing her out. Go somewhere different, try and walk really really slow, get her to carry something. Anything to get her brain going. Sometimes just walking down the road isnt enough. You can also incorporate some of her obedience training into the walk. It doesnt have to be done at home. 

Mix it up and have fun with it. Also absolutely crate her!


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

It is not about how she was raised to 14 weeks, it is about now. She needs constant supervision, poistive reinforcement when she does things right and a stern no when she is wrong.

Think of it this way, she is blissfully happy during her wonderful hour and a half exercise a day, but then she is looking for more. Don't leave her in the back yard alone, get an ex pen or a crate. She is just all over the place, take charge with supervision and confinement. Kicks and throwing things at her will do nothing but confuse her more, or heaven forbid make her mean.

Good luck and keep us posted, some pups are just more challenging than others. Sometimes you have to change your game plan many times, but they are worth it!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

While she has not had an ideal start to life, she is not a lost cause. I agree with the rest-CRATE! She's far too young to be left unsupervised, and mischief is only to be expected.

If you can't or won't crate her, and your father is getting so angry, it may be best to rehome her.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Sadly, I think the poor little thing needs to removed from the home.

Abuse is abuse and there is abuse going on here, without question.

I'm not saying this to be mean. I'm saying it in the best interest of the dog. 

Would anyone EVER suggest that a human stay in a relationship where they are being abused? Unless dad is willing to change, BIG TIME, willing to learn how to effectively live with a puppy/dog and become part of the solution and not part of the problem then Shelley needs a new home.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I might be remembering wrong, but arent Shelley and E outside dogs. I know it's a cliche often said here, and yet it is true- goldens do better inside with their people. Maybe she is lonely?


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I can walk her at 4pm in the afternoon and still makes no difference all this behaviour goes on late in the night could be early morning for all i know. Shes well behaved during the day. Shelley does not listen with just a firm No you have to tap her on the bottom to get her attention. If you just say No in a firm voice she ignores you. I know my dog and she is very stubborn and high headed and will ignore you unless you tap her on the bottom then say No and point away from where she is. 

Shes only dag 2 holes and in the same place both times one minute shes good will not dig then the next she will. Like not last night the night before she did not dig. That day i took her for walk to the lake we left at 12pm was home by 1:15pm, Then at 3pm i went out trained her for 25-30 minutes came inside half an hour later went out sat down beside her for 30-40 minutes patting and talking to her. She left the yard alone that night. But yesterday cause it was too hot to go anywhere she didn't get walked, I was also busy that day so didn't spend as much time with her,That night she was destructive.
My dad is doing the wrong thing but he mainly scares her when he throws something at her its a piece of paper or a rock at her feet. When he kicks her its more of a love kick for know the footie games. He only does it when he catchs her in the act eg while doing something shes not meant too. I don't think a crate will work with Shelley as she has never been locked up like that before,Plus she also has never been taught to hold her bladder or bowel. She seems to be only digging a hole once every second day and only late at night or early morning when everyone is asleep. I know people say dogs do not think this way but she knows if she does it at day she will get caught where she knows if she does it at night she won't get told off. She seems to be using her brains for the bad stuff not good. Shes a type of dog that you can't miss 1 day of exercise with her all she gets destructive. She will not play fetch the only runing she will do is after Einstein or Rascal my chihuahua. If i take her out on her own all she will do is lay down and not move a muscle unless theres another dog or birds she can chase. She has been like this since the day i got her i have been trying to get her out of it but as soon as you think you have made progress she does something destructive again.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

She needs to be rehomed. Or turned over to a rescue so they can rehome her. She's obviously not fitting into your home situation.

Do you have a Golden rescue near? Anyone you can call that would take her, take good care of her and find her the right home?


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

For everyone's sake, Shelley needs another home. Keeping her outside all the time may be the source of the problem. If she's lonely and bored, she will get into trouble. Crate training and housebreaking (and crating will definitely help with housebreaking) are options. But if she has to stay outside, I think she needs to live elsewhere. Personally, I cannot fathom having a dog and making it stay outside all the time, but maybe that's a cultural bias on my part.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> When he kicks her its more of a love kick


???????????????????

Sorry, I just don't understand what a "love kick" is. This dog really needs to be rehomed. She is not getting nearly the amount of attention that she needs. She needs structure, training, and love. This poor dog is lonely.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

I agree with everyone, she needs to be re homed. Kicking a dog calling it love kick is not the way to go!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

She's an outside dog right? It might be that she isn't a good canidate for that. Especially when they are young. Before you look at re-homing, I would try keeping her in your house, crating her when you can't watch her and basically teaching her house manners. You might be surprised with her behavior change. Plus...your hard work is rewarded. Dogs outside left to do the bad stuff can start building bad habits and alot of what you train is lost.

I hope you find a solution. I've been where you are and its very hard.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I can tell you all right now she is not a good canidate for an indoor dog either. She is very active when indoors all she does is run,run,run she knocks everything over and will not settle down. We allow them inside sometimes we even had a behaviourist around and they reccomended she be better outdoors, They said she is way too active for an indoor life. When she is indoors she does not want anything to do with humans all she does is run around and knock things over. The behaviourist saw how clam she is when outside more responsive eg listen to me sit,drop,stay and come. Bring her indoors she will not listen to a word you say even if you have food. The behaviourist said if we were to keep her inside she will have to be in a crate 24/7 due to her being so active. I do not want to crate her as i prefer my dogs to have there freedom. 

I understand all you guys have your dogs indoors but it isn't possible for me to allow her inside. I also believe that dogs as big as goldens should not be indoors,thats my preferance. Wild dogs do not go knocking on peoples doors and asking for a room to sleep in. My dogs have a kennel undercover away from rain,wind and sun. They get plenty of attention,get walked daily,fresh water,food daily they get vet treatment there not missing out of anything. Where there kennels are they can see inside,see us and hear us where ever we are in the house. Just cause my dogs are outside doesn't mean there not part of the family they are. My dogs do not like the heat so being inside would make them uncomfortable. This is all i'm going to say on this thread cause to me everyone has there preferences and no likes my preferences i know that but its up to me.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> I can tell you all right now she is not a good canidate for an indoor dog either. She is very active when indoors all she does is run,run,run she knocks everything over and will not settle down. We allow them inside sometimes we even had a behaviourist around and they reccomended she be better outdoors,.


I'm sorry to be candid here...but that's silly. She's run, run, run because she's untrained, or she's excited. So the worst thing you do is throw her outside to "fix' the problem. 

When you put her outside she digs and tears things up. When she's inside you learn to deal with the problem.

I know. I didn't have a fenced back yard when Lucky was young. Thank god I couldn't just put him outside. Or he'd be incorrigible.


I am not against outside dogs. Some do well. But your girl needs YOU right now and she's giving you every sign in the world. And inside is where you can fix the problems she has. Once she has learned self-control, then she may do fine outside.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

A Golden is not intended to live as an outside dog as they are very people orientated and are miserable being separated from the family they love. If you are not interested in keeping your Golden indoors, this is not the dog for you. A lonely Golden may bark incessantly, dig up the back yard or continuously escape to roam the neighborhood.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Find a rescue for her. Tucker was a very unruly dog before he came to live with us. He was returned to his breeder and they waited for the right family to come along. I guess we were the right family. He's done very well since we've had him. I decided it was going to work no matter how long it took. It worked. He's been with us 5 years.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Well if goldens don't do well outside why is Einstein doing great then he never barks,digs,chews no destructive behaviour at all from him. Like i said Shelley has only digged 2 holes and only began since the hot weather has arrived. The breeder of Shelley thinks its quite ok to have goldens outside as long as they get plenty of attention which my guys get. Not all golden breeders in australia reckon that there dogs should be inside 24/7 and don't really mind if there kept outdoors as long as they have a warm place to sleep out of the cold,wind etc and plenty of attention. 

I've had a talk to my dad he said he will stop kicking Shelley and only give her a tap on the bottom or a rock thrown at her feet to get her attention. Like i said i know my dog she will not listen unless shes been tapped on the bottom or something thrown at her feet, Only then can you say No in a firm voice and point her away from where she is. The plants she has chewed are new to her so shes probably investigating them, give her time she will probably leave them alone. I came here asking what i could do to controll her digging and i'm sorry to say bringing her inside isn't going to teach her that digging isn't acceptable behaviour. I have taught Einstein that his allowed to dig at the beach or anywhere other then at home and he knows that so he knows the command dig. I'm now thinking the digging of holes is something shes doing to keep cool in hot weather. In the morning when we go out there and see a hole we take Shelley to hole and say you did this naughty thats all we do. I only give her a tap of her bottom when i catch her in the act. I know you are all saying just rehome her but i'm trying things out and see if she out grows this like she did with everything else.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't think bringing her to the hole she dug in the morning and telling her it's naughty is going to help much. You do have to catch a dog in the act and redirect their attention to something positive. 

The hold digging probably is a way for her to stay cool. I think she may be sending you a signal that she is uncomfortable. Just because Einstein can tolerate the conditions, doesn't mean she can. 

Have you tried a loud whistle to get her attention instead of a tap or throwing something at her feet? The throwing something at her feet reminds me of being shot at and made to dance. It sure does get your attention, but in some cases it would drive even a person to dig their heels in and behave negatively.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't think a tap on the bottom or a thrown object is necessarily a bad thing. It really depends on the dog, and as long as you are not hurting them or traumatizing them with it--why not if it works?

Someone once told me to stop diggers you can put poo in the hole and recover it. Supposedly it works really well, and it may be worth a try. As far as indoors or not. I think the key thing is if you are not watching her and catching her in the act, you are losing some effectiveness. The idea of some confinement is only until you feel that she is ready for some more freedom and won't be destructive.

As far as an indoor/outdoor dog, I think it really depends on the dog and circumstances. All of my dogs are indoor dogs, but I refuse to believe that all dogs are unhappy as outdoor dogs. I had a friend with a dog who LOVED being outside and hated to come in at night, so they built her a nice dog house outside. So what? You just need to honestly assess it yourself.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

One of my dogs also digs in the dirt during hot weather, to make a cool spot to relax. She's an inside dog, but there is some dirt in the yard under some bushes, so I don't mind if she carves out a spot to cool off. So maybe Shelley is saying that it's too hot outside for her.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

My advice would be to build a proper dog run, with sidewalk blocks or something so she can't dig. Maybe an area where she can dig if you want, but an area she can do whatever and not destroy your yard. You can have a doghouse or whatever for her as well so she can get out of the weather, and then at least she's safe. 

She is not going to learn what not to do if you're not watching her to make sure she's not doing the wrong thing. Regardless of the weather being hot, you should be spending time with her. She is going to be crazy in the house the first few times you bring her in, until she gets used to it. Put her on a leash and bring her in so she can't run around. Find a trainer who actually can teach you how to work with her in the house to teach manners - telling you that she should just stay outside is a sign they have no clue what they are doing.

Storee is and can be a wild thing in the house, as a pup she'd race all over the place grabbing everything. But, I kept up with it, taught her manners and now she's fine. It took a lot of time, but it's part of owning a dog. 

Lana


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't think it's constructive to compare a puppy to a 10-year old dog. (And while you say that Einstein never misbehaved as a pup, it was rather a long time ago and you were pretty young, weren't you?)

It's great that you've worked out an agreement with your dad. And while I can understand your anger and frustration--and your dad's-- it's not really going to solve the problem.

Digging is great fun for dogs, so you've got to either give her something else to do or physically keep her from digging. The crate, outside, seems like a rather easy inexpensive solution to the prevention problem given that you're moving soon. As Bender suggested, what about a kiddie sandbox or some acceptable place to dig?

best
Allen


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Crating in that hot weather would worry me alot. The dog would have to be crated inside where there's cooler air and water. The problem with this whole situation is that the dog isn't supervised like it needs to be. Some dogs require more supervision than others. If she were an inside dog, she would get "caught" doing the wrong things right away, she would develop inside manners, she'd develop a relationship with her owners where she'd want to pay more attention to what they want. No birds, butterflies, leaves, other dogs to distract from her humans.

I feel that the longer you wait and see, the older she will be and the more entrenched her bad behaviours will be.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I would not say get rid of her, but I would crate her. Our Francine would destroy our yard if she was alone out there all night. She often has time out in the day loose, but if I do not watch constantly, she will destroy the A/C units and all kinds of stuff. She is a very calm Golden who needs less than most so far as attention and exercise, but she is still a dog and she would get bored.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

This is a mess of thorns, but here I go anyway:

A lot of the training you're describing is ineffective or outright counterproductive. Dragging a dog back to a hole to scold her makes absolutely no sense to a dog and creates confusion. Her brain isn't equipped to understand the concept of "you're in trouble now because of something you did before." If you can't catch her in the act, you can't scold her. You need to create situations where she's unable to do those bad behaviors when she's unsupervised, otherwise she'll continue to think it's OK.

And that's a big part of your problem, isn't it? She gets away with all the behavior you don't like when you're not around to tell her it's wrong. So, from her perspective, most of the times she digs holes, it's fun and nobody gets mad. She can't be expected to figure it out if she hasn't been given a fair shot.

I'm betting she ignores your "no" because she has no idea what it means, not because she's a "bad dog." To her, you shout "no" randomly and without meaning. Supplementing it by striking the dog or throwing rocks at her is a testament to bad training, not an effective or ethical way of solving her problems. You need to go back to puppy-level training, probably on the leash, so your corrections begin to make sense again. I'm glad your father is no longer kicking the dog, but using other violent corrections is only going to make things worse.

I don't have a personal bias against keeping a dog mostly outdoors, but what you have is a dog who is confused, bored, and understimulated, and she's taking matters into her own paws. The walks obviously aren't enough to satisfy her mental and physical exercise needs, so she's working off the extra by destroying things.

I hate to sound judgmental, but I don't know how to pull my punches while still telling you what I think you need to hear: the fact that you're hitting her at all or dragging her back to holes in the morning to scold her both demonstrate a fundmental misunderstanding of the way dogs' minds work. You need to go to class together or to otherwise employ someone with real expertise to help teach you how to train more effectively.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Why dont you make a place that she can dig without getting in trouble, like a sandbox. Whenever she starts digging and you catch her take her to the place she can dig and show her she can dig there. Also put litle toys and treats in there to make her use her mind to search them out. And cheer her on when she starts digging in the sand box. 

DONT EVER throw things at her feet, hit or kick to get her to pay attentionor let anyone else do that. It could be one time that you actually hurt her and then how would you feel and it doesnt teach her a thing. Give her positive training when she does good and you will see better results. Have you enrolled her in a obiedance class? That will help with her training and also will help to tire her out with the training you can do at home together after each class. As far as the plant eating, put some fencing around it so she cant get to them. It is boredom causing her to act out, not that she is doing it to be a brat. Play with her throwing the ball, taking for walks, and wearing her out and it will help her to be tired and not so distructive. They act out like the digging when they are bored or hot. Do you have a baby pool that you can put water in and give her toys to play with in there? That way she can cool down while outside. All ideas off the top of my head to help her and you. 

I do think that her not getting alot of socialization from the breeder when she was young has something to do with her problems. You said she basically spent the first months living in a concrete area with having food given to her and once in a while petted, so she never learned from day one what is acceptable and what isnt. 

You can never compare two dogs on why one does one thing and one doesnt. Just like kids each dog is different. Especially when the two dogs are from two different breeders and also different sexes. 
Good luck and hopefully with positive training only it will help Shelly to be a better pup.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> Why dont you make a place that she can dig without getting in trouble, like a sandbox. Whenever she starts digging and you catch her take her to the place she can dig and show her she can dig there. Also put litle toys and treats in there to make her use her mind to search them out. And cheer her on when she starts digging in the sand box.


That is a great, positive suggestion! I saw this technique used by Victoria Stillwell on "It's Me or the Dog" with great success. She hid various treats in the sandbox to encourage the dog to dig and praised it to high heaven when it started digging. Pretty soon, the dog stopped digging up the yard.


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## hannahsmom (Oct 29, 2007)

No dog deserves to be kicked and have things thrown at them. You can't expect a puppy to "behave" and not chew your house apart when not supervised. If your Dad isn't a part of raising and teaching your dog how to behave in a safe and acceptable way then finding another home for her that is "safe" is the best you can do for her. It doesn't matter what breed of dog you have, puppies chew on everything and they need to be kept safe.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Just a question? Does she go to obedience class with your Dad and or you weekly? That will help a lot. For all concerned.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I dislike the obedience clubs here they all use food and i know Shelley training her with food is out of the question she doe not listen. They will not allow you to train you dog without ffod. What there doing in training i'm doing at home but not using food rewards. She knows what No means just sometimes she chooses not to listen so a tap on the bottom is required. God the tap on the bottom is more of a pat to her. 

I think i have finally worked out what to do with her she didn't dig last night or chew a plant. What i did is walked her for an hour and half offlead runing and swimming. I then let her rest for a bit,then went outside for a training sesion that lasted for 15 minutes i then played balee with Einstein and her for 30 minutes or more, I then patted and talked to her for a while. I think its just a matter of tering her out. If i just do a training sesion and pay attention to her she digs. But today its 43 degrees celcius way too hot too go walking.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> I dislike the obedience clubs here they all use food and i know Shelley training her with food is out of the question she doe not listen. They will not allow you to train you dog without ffod. What there doing in training i'm doing at home but not using food rewards. She knows what No means just sometimes she chooses not to listen so a tap on the bottom is required. God the tap on the bottom is more of a pat to her.
> 
> I think i have finally worked out what to do with her she didn't dig last night or chew a plant. What i did is walked her for an hour and half offlead runing and swimming. I then let her rest for a bit,then went outside for a training sesion that lasted for 15 minutes i then played balee with Einstein and her for 30 minutes or more, I then patted and talked to her for a while. I think its just a matter of tering her out. If i just do a training sesion and pay attention to her she digs. But today its 43 degrees celcius way too hot too go walking.


There's a good reason why trainers require food rewards - IT'S EFFECTIVE! It's a shame that you're choosing to be closed minded to a training option; it might do wonders for you and your dog - but you'll never know if you don't try it.

If you decide to manage her behavior by simply trying to tire her out, be warned: the more exercise you provide, the more she'll need. Like humans, increased exercise builds endurance.

One of the easiest, most effective ways to tire out a dog is MENTAL STIMULATION. I strongly encourage you to consider at least giving the dog training class a fair shot. And if you don't like the idea of using "treats" then start using her daily ration of kibble and dole it out a couple pieces at a time as a reward for ANY behavior you like.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I should have said this in the post above the reason why i dislike this obedience club is cause i've been there with the black lab i owned. They teach the dogs to go too a speciall mat that is front of there owner. Well the trainer said command your dogs to there mats i did so with Amber my lab well she would not move . Trainer said not to tug on the lead or direct her to the mat she had to go to the mat when told. I said mat pointed at the mat she did not go, the trainer came up to Amber and gave her a food reward and she wasn't anywhere near the mat she didn't listen to the command and still she rewarded her. So too me she rewarded Amber for not listening to the comand. To me thats not teaching at all. One lady there owns a 5 year old lab it would not do a thing unless food was involved that is not the way i want my dogs to learn. Shelley is very obedient i've had people say that and they have just meet her. 1 click on the finger she sits 2 clicks she drops. I never have to repeat myself i ask or click once and she does it.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> There's a good reason why trainers require food rewards - IT'S EFFECTIVE! It's a shame that you're choosing to be closed minded to a training option; it might do wonders for you and your dog - but you'll never know if you don't try it.


The other thing is that the food is not forever - a lot of us on here compete with our dogs in various venues - we cannot bring food (or toys) into the obedience/agility ring - We all started with gobs and gobs of food rewards, but as the dogs started to understand what is being asked of them the rewards shift to something else - less food, some jackpots, play, freedom or praise.

You really need to consider trying something else - and yes that means food. It sounds to me that the methods you are using now don't work for Shelly - I'll leave my own judgements of what is and isn't fair out of this discussion. If something isn't working - regardless of your methods you need to think about what else could work. The same method doesn't work for every dog - it sounds like Einstein and Shelly are very different dogs what worked with one might not have the same result with the other.

Erica


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Please take to heart the suggestions from Stephanie and Erica. They are both excellent trainers and really know dogs, goldens in particular. You have received numerous good, positive suggestions from various people. Since what you've been doing isn't working, please at least give some of these other suggestions a try. What do you have to lose?


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> Trainer said not to tug on the lead or direct her to the mat she had to go to the mat when told. I said mat pointed at the mat she did not go, the trainer came up to Amber and gave her a food reward and she wasn't anywhere near the mat she didn't listen to the command and still she rewarded her. So too me she rewarded Amber for not listening to the comand. To me thats not teaching at all.


Sounds like she was shaping an exercise - we shape going to a mat too - we call it the "place" exercise. Are you familiar with what shaping behavior is? This is an established method that allows the dog to think (mental stimulation) about what the handler wants - the final product evolves through bits and pieces.

Shaping:
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1549
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rX7TN4DPss

As for the other student there with a dog that will only work for food - I don't know the dog, the student or their history - there are a lot of reasons (teaching something new for example) that an older dog would be working for a lot of cookies and there is always the possibility that they are retraining or desensitizing - or simply working on something different than the rest of the class and they have different goals. My retired obedience dog comes out and sometimes works obedience - does he get paid a lot? Yeah - and I'm OK with that - its not a bribe, not a lure but he has a high rate of reinforcement.

Honestly if one of my students came to me and said - I just want a dog that just walks nicely around the block without pulling and I never want to wean off the treats completely - that's OK with me - if that's their goal - fine. I will give them the tools that help them get around the block with whatever rate of reinforcement they want to get to - if they stop every 100 feet to reward good behavior (not a bribe) - that's fine with me no skin off my nose! It's often not fair to judge a class by one or two students - or even one whole session. Like I said before - different goals, different levels of dedication to the final products and dogs that come to us with baggage that needs to be worked through.

If they have a goal of doing obedience/rally/cgc/therapy work, etc then we work to get treats off of them...different goals.

Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> I should have said this in the post above the reason why i dislike this obedience club is cause i've been there with the black lab i owned. They teach the dogs to go too a speciall mat that is front of there owner. Well the trainer said command your dogs to there mats i did so with Amber my lab well she would not move . Trainer said not to tug on the lead or direct her to the mat she had to go to the mat when told. I said mat pointed at the mat she did not go, the trainer came up to Amber and gave her a food reward and she wasn't anywhere near the mat she didn't listen to the command and still she rewarded her. So too me she rewarded Amber for not listening to the comand. To me thats not teaching at all. One lady there owns a 5 year old lab it would not do a thing unless food was involved that is not the way i want my dogs to learn. Shelley is very obedient i've had people say that and they have just meet her. 1 click on the finger she sits 2 clicks she drops. I never have to repeat myself i ask or click once and she does it.


There could be a million reasons why the trainer gave your dog a treat in that example, and none of the ones I'm thinking of have to do with feeding your dog b/c she DIDN'T go to the mat. It's quite possible that if your dog was just standing there and wouldn't move, she was shut down - or appeared to be shutting down - in which case many trainers, myself included, will offer food to see if the dog will even take it. Ability and desire to eat is a great indicator of a dog's mental state at any particular time. An animal that is truly over-stressed will not eat at that moment. Even if that's not why the trainer gave the treat, one ill-timed treat will not destroy a training program.

You say your dog is, "very obedient" yet the purpose of your post is to complain about her behavior; how she's DISOBEDIENT and WON'T LEARN. Now I'm confused. 

Like Erica said, when used correctly, food is a tool - like anything else - that is ideally phased out as the dog LEARNS what is expected of him and also, learns that COMPLIANCE = good things from the owner: treats, privilages, attention, etc. When someone has a dog who ONLY works when the food is present, I gaurantee it's because the food was used incorrectly (often as a bribe vs. a lure or reward) and wasn't phased out in a timely manner.

Bottom line is, like others have said, if what you're doing isn't working, TRY SOMETHING ELSE. It's not fair to compare your pup to your older dog. Different dogs; different personalities; often requires different training methods. Why not try a semester of the local club's classes?


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

The club will not take me eg for one reason i had a go at them cause the club were all complaining cause i got Amber from a byb, kept saying how dumb she was she will never learn. She was only 12 weeks for crying out loud. They would not do one on one training it had to be group only. So i got defensive and abused them and left the club. There the only club in this area. The house is up for sale when we move to the new town were going to i plan on taking Shelley to obedience school. Until then i plan on working with her at home. What i mean obedient is eg listening to the commands given sit,drop,stay,come,leave,drop,ignore,wait etc. She is only misbehaving in the digging chewing other then that she is very obedient.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

While I understand you wish to keep your dog in a kennel outside, in order to effectively train her, I do suggest bringing her into the home. You say she doesn't listen to people and has bonded with your other dogs, so separate her from the other dogs, leash her to you, give her a firm set of rules in the house and make her understand that your voice is the voice she listens to. Reward with treats...but in time, make her work harder for those treats, give it time and she'll respond to your commands without any treats at all.

Dogs that love to dig should be given a spot to dig in. Again, if you are with her whenever she is outside, you can train her where to dig. Give her too much freedom, you lose your authority. I have trained many fosters. The key is to crate when you can't work with them and leash them to you when they are out of the crate. You'd be surprised how quickly a dog learns. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but it I've found crating, constant supervision and positive rewards work wonders with most dogs and shave weeks off training time.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

I don't mean to be critical, but your thread is entitled "I have no clue what I'm going to do" and you suggested that you're so angry that you're ready to give Shelly up. 

Then when forum members make helpful positive suggestions (being exceedingly diplomatic about the fact that you and your dad hit Shelly and threw things at her, treatment that's not all that different from what Roo got from Tinsley's brothers) and you largely reject them. Your response here seems a little like what happened in your last obedience class, when you "got defensive and abused them."

I admit I'm just a knucklehead offering free advice that's worth every penny. But others here are true experts, and if it were my dog I think I'd listen. But what do I know. 

allen


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> My dad is getting feed up with he doesn't have much patience and can be a bit mean eg kick dog or throw something at her.
> 
> I've had a talk to my dad he said he will stop kicking Shelley and only give her a tap on the bottom or a rock thrown at her feet to get her attention.


Throw rocks? Sorry, but this dog... I feel sorry for it. :no: Very abusive


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

How is she supposed to *know* not to dig in your yard when she's out there alone most of the time? If you breakdown the hours in her day, despite the fact that you're paying attention to her, walking her, etc. I'm sure she's still unsupervised in the backyard more than she's not. So while she's back there, she's experimenting with digging and nobody is there to tell her not to. Dogs do what works. Period. For her, digging - a very self-rewarding behavior - works more often than not, so she's going to keep doing it.

I agree with the idea of keeping her apart from the other dog. Sounds like her early upbringing before you got her has resulted in her being more dog oriented than people oriented. Reduce the amount of time she spends with another dog and increase the amount of time she spends with you - where you actively reward her for doing things you like - and I bet you'll see a huge, positive shift in your current relationship.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> The club will not take me eg for one reason i had a go at them cause the club were all complaining cause i got Amber from a byb, kept saying how dumb she was she will never learn. She was only 12 weeks for crying out loud. They would not do one on one training it had to be group only. So i got defensive and abused them and left the club. There the only club in this area. The house is up for sale when we move to the new town were going to i plan on taking Shelley to obedience school. Until then i plan on working with her at home. What i mean obedient is eg listening to the commands given sit,drop,stay,come,leave,drop,ignore,wait etc. She is only misbehaving in the digging chewing other then that she is very obedient.





How did you teach her to do all the commands she is doing? Well apply the same method here. She needed you to be there with her to teach her those things, and will need you there to teach her what NOT to do, just like you taught her what IS acceptable, you need to teach what is NOT acceptable. If she is TUNING you out for the word "NO" then try a different word like "leave it" command, or a combo of strong AH AH, shaker can with some pennies in it to make a loud noise then give a Leave It command then call her to you and reward. Do that 15 minutes a day, and practice it at different times through out the day. She sounds like a smart girl and will pick it up in no time if you are consistant.

At night and ANY time she is to be left alone for any length of time, please try a crate, what a difference the crate does make, AND they actually LIKE it  (I was never one for crates before, never needed to, but I do have 2 now that do NEED to be crated for their own safety as well as not destroying anything. I also have had 2 dogs in the past that HATED to be indoors, but I did make them come in at night, again for their safety, and there are too many wild animals out at night that may carry disease. They came in late at night and out at the crack of dawn. If I overslept 1 would pull my covers right off, lol )

If you don't care for food rewards, try looking into the "clicker" training method.

You may also want to check out Bitter Apple as a deterant for chewing.

If you feel yourself getting frustrated, stop the training session with an easy command to end it on a positive note.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> I don't mean to be critical, but your thread is entitled "I have no clue what I'm going to do" and you suggested that you're so angry that you're ready to give Shelly up.
> 
> Then when forum members make helpful positive suggestions (being exceedingly diplomatic about the fact that you and your dad hit Shelly and threw things at her, treatment that's not all that different from what Roo got from Tinsley's brothers) and you largely reject them. Your response here seems a little like what happened in your last obedience class, when you "got defensive and abused them."
> 
> ...


I agree. Why ask the question, or for advice if you're not willing to listen?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Old Gold Mum2001 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> If you don't care for food rewards, try looking into the "clicker" training method.
> 
> ...


Whoops. Totally not the point of the thread, but clicker training utilizes food. A primary reinforcer (food) must follow the secondary reinforcer (the click) in order for the clicker to develop and maintain its value.

Hopefully the OP will experiment with some of the many great suggestions here!


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Shes been a very good girl for the past few days now no hole digging or chewing onf the plants. Like i said the plants she chewed were new in the garden so they were new to her she was probably investigating them. She loves me she comes to me everytime i go outside. I've tryed whistling and still she chooses to ignore me, The breeder of Shelley reckons i'm doing everything right. Shelley doess not like to be locked up and our yard isn't quite big enough for a dog run. I already had to replace the bathroom door cause she destroyed it trying to get out when she was 14 weeks old. When out of the bathroom she runs atraight to the back door wanting to go outside and doesn't come runing back to the door to be let in. The only way to get Shelley inside is by force and i do not want to force a dog to do something she doesn't want. She came inside yesterday as it was really hot but only came in cause Einstein did. We don't have air conditioning in our house so it was only 2 degrees lower then outside temperture. I'm working with her right her and she seems to be doing good. 

Ho i trained her not using food rewards was easy i told her sit while doing it i lifted my hand above her head just like you would do if you had food, When she sat she got fussed over patted and told good girl. Same with drop with stay she was put in sit position then told to stay i would then start to move away if she broke her stay i would say No naughty and start again. She is one smart girl she learnt sit,drop,stay,come within a week. She has now mastered it sometimes she breaks the stay but if i spot her i say naughty she then goes back where she was and sits down again. She also knows how to drop stay. She also knows the commands halt,wait,leave,tar as in give,ignore and is in the progress of learning how to cross a road.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I'm very glad you're feeling like you're seeing some success and that you feel she's a smart girl. Please remember that the next time you're frustrated with her and want to declare that she's a bad dog that won't learn.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Whoops. Totally not the point of the thread, but clicker training utilizes food. A primary reinforcer (food) must follow the secondary reinforcer (the click) in order for the clicker to develop and maintain its value.
> 
> Hopefully the OP will experiment with some of the many great suggestions here!


 
LOL, oops, my bad, you are totally right bout the food reward after a click, guess what stuck in my mind was is when she said the dog obeys commands of her clicking her fingers, figured maybe she could try the clicker :doh:
Thanks for jogging my memory 
(I don't use a clicker, just the food )


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## Trish58 (Jan 25, 2009)

I really recommend crating her. I'm infuriated about the hitting and throwing things at her. This is abuse. I'm really thinking you should look into your local GR Rescue location. It seems your father has some anger issues which is only psychologically,
and possibly physically damaging the poor dog. Negative reinforcement of any kind will never work.
Perhaps at a later time you could consider getting another puppy.


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## KRayl (Aug 22, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> The other thing is that the food is not forever - a lot of us on here compete with our dogs in various venues - we cannot bring food (or toys) into the obedience/agility ring - We all started with gobs and gobs of food rewards, but as the dogs started to understand what is being asked of them the rewards shift to something else - less food, some jackpots, play, freedom or praise.
> 
> You really need to consider trying something else - and yes that means food. It sounds to me that the methods you are using now don't work for Shelly - I'll leave my own judgements of what is and isn't fair out of this discussion. If something isn't working - regardless of your methods you need to think about what else could work. The same method doesn't work for every dog - it sounds like Einstein and Shelly are very different dogs what worked with one might not have the same result with the other.
> 
> Erica



Please, for your pup, do whatever it takes to get her to listen. She doesn't like getting in trouble. She doesn't like being yelled at. Really, she only wants to make you happy and one of the best things you can do for her is to work with her and become part of her team. 

When I was in school, I know that I didn't learn like all of the other students there - I had to use the learning method that worked best for me to excel. I also know that I would've crawled in a cave and gave up if someone tried to teach me by using a negative approach to get my attention. 

If one method doesn't work, move on to something else. 

I quoted MurphyTeller because my husband, myself and our puppy, Avery, are students of hers and I can speak from experience - the suggestions that she has given you through out this tread WORK. I promise you. It takes a lot of work and patience but in the end, it's so rewarding. There's nothing like seeing your dog smiling back up and you and you smiling at her when she has FINALLY figured out that command you're asking her for. Now, I'm not the world's most patient person - I'll be the first to admit that, but I do love my dog and want whats best for her. I know that by being patient, her and I can go far. They say that you don't get the dog you want - you get the dog you need. In the short time we've had her, she has already taught me a lot about patience and I am becoming much more confident in my ability to actually train a dog. It really, really works. Give her lots of treats - I'm sure she loves treats! She'll even work really hard for treats that she really loves! If you find she's not listening to you, maybe she doesn't like that particular treat. 

Work with her to learn what works for her. We know you know your dog..... we get that, but please trust what the trainers here on the forum are telling you. They know dogs, too.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm glad things are going better. I hope it continues to progress well.


I would definately keep an open mind and I would not blame the dog for not learning. If she's digging, kick yourself. Its your fault. I'm not trying to insult you....that's the attitude one should have. 

I ask you to have an open mind about things....because ultimately its the results we are looking for. If techniques have worked well for others I do not automatically discard the techniques out of hand. True they may not work for Lucky as all dogs are different. But sometimes a different way of doing things can make all the difference.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Would your dad be open to a heart-to-heart talk about the dogs if you catch him at a good moment?


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

> What i mean obedient is eg listening to the commands given sit,drop,stay,come,leave,drop,ignore,wait etc.


Try this command.

"Run immediately to a new owner."

Let us know how it works out.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> Try this command.
> 
> "Run immediately to a new owner."
> 
> Let us know how it works out.


That is quite a rude comment to make, My dad has said he will stop doing it and he has. Shelley has been good for the past week has stopped digging.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I am happy she's doing better. I DO know how frustrating digging can be...Lucky finally outgrew his digging when he was a bout 1.5 years.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

And yet still thinks throwing rocks at it's feet to make it "listen" is acceptable behaviour. Even worse, you don't seem to think there's anything wrong with that. My comment may be rude but I stand by it.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Have you gotten a crate yet?


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> And yet still thinks throwing rocks at it's feet to make it "listen" is acceptable behaviour. Even worse, you don't seem to think there's anything wrong with that. My comment may be rude but I stand by it.


Honestly?? She is here looking for help, give her credit and patience.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I agree. The rude, non-helpful comments aren't acceptable or appropriate.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

What isn't acceptable or appropriate is throwing rocks at a dog. Asking for help is very commendable, but the fact that she believes that throwing rocks at a dog as a form of training is not a big deal is appalling. I won't apologize for pointing that our nor will I apologize for being disgusted by it. 

I will now bow out of this thread. Good luck with your dog. Better luck with your father.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I refuse to use a crate as Shelley hates to be locked up. Even when 14 weeks old she hated to be locked up in the bathroom which is bigger then a crate. I'm the type of person who likes there dogs to have freedom. Like i said Shelley has not been taught to hold her pee or poo, cause of her freedom she is able to pee and poo when she wants. Like i said she is learning more and more each day, Shelley doesn't like the smell of the doggy colonge i use so i fill the hole in and spray the colonge over it and she keeps away from it. She only digs in the one spot not all over the yard. Shes been good the past week she dag a little hole but was caught in the act and told she was naughty.We have stopped throwing things at her feet now, we only give her a tap on the bottom to get her attention. Shelleys breeder thinks its prefectly alright to give a little tap on the bottom to get there attention. Tell me this have you ever owned a dog that is more dog focussed then human? I can't sperate them as my yard isn't big enough to do that. Taking her out on her own is alright but you can't let her offlead as she runs home for Einstein. Even when Einstein is with my boyfriend and I she either pulls forward to get to him or pulls back to get him, My boyfriend walks up front he can never walk with me. If i take the dogs together with just me she has a bad habit of dashing infront of Einstein suddenly which trips him over. Even with a Y conector she still manges to dash out infront of him. Einstein can growl,show his teeth,peg her down,snap at her and still she keeps doing it. I step in and tell her enough leave it she listens for a good second then does it again. Give a tap on the bottom and say in a firm voice enough and she stops it all together. She will not listen with food if you have food in your hands and tell her to sit she will not do it at all, have no food tell her to sit she sits straight away. Shelleys breeder said her brother is the same so its in the genes. She also said i'm doing everything right just keep up with it and she will soon grow out of it and become a better dog.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm glad that you got your father to stop throwing things at him. I'm sorry if I was rude but that sort of thing fires me up. Good luck with your dog.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

> We have stopped throwing things at her feet now, we only give her a tap on the bottom to get her attention. Shelleys breeder thinks its prefectly alright to give a little tap on the bottom to get there attention.


No offense, but with your history of kicking this dog and rock throwing rocks at this poor animal, I'm questioning this "tap on the bottom." Freedom? You mean leave them outside all day? Goldens are not outside dogs. They are people dogs and companion animals.

All I know is one thing, asking for help or not, you have not done this poor dog any justice, I think you really need to dig deep to see if you should be a dog owner or if you are willing to make the changes necessary to properly care for your companion, walk her, take her to classes. :no:

I'm sorry, but I do not approve of this thread. Reading this entire thread makes me feel very sad. If I were a Golden Retriever, I would not want you to be my owner.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

GoldenOwner12,

Sounds like you are making some headway and I'm happy to hear it. I'll even throw my two cents in--I personally see nothing wrong with a tap on the bottom so long as it doesn't hurt (unlikely) or frighten the dog. I am sad to read some of these comments because it sounds to me like you are a responsible owner who takes good care of her dogs. There is no one right way to raise or own a dog.


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## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> I refuse to use a crate as Shelley hates to be locked up. Even when 14 weeks old she hated to be locked up in the bathroom which is bigger then a crate. ....Give a tap on the bottom and say in a firm voice enough and she stops it all together. ....


Goldens like to be around people. If you crate her where she can see you then she doesn't feel so alone. Being locked up in the bathroom is solitary confinement for a dog (isolation) and they will develop behavior problems from that. 

Try tapping *your leg* and using the *firm voice "enough".* It's probably your tone that is getting your message across anyway. 

Don't give up. And, I admire you for coming here to ask your questions and being willing to change how you relate to your dog.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

thanks for all the advice the tap on the bottom isn't hard at all Shelley thinks of it as a pat which is all it is a pat. Just a little tap on the bottom like you pat a dog on the head. She doesn't get frighted or scared by it at all she turns around and comes to you for more. I take great pride in caring for my dogs. They get plenty of attention even if there outdoor dogs, I'm mainly outside all day anyway. They get plenty of fresh food,water and get exercised everyday be it 45 minutes off lead to an hour and half offlead. Shelleys breeder actually reckons shes been exercised to much which is why she is energetic and expecting to go on walks everyday. But i enjoy walking my dogs and they love to get out and about. I care that much about my dogs the slightiest thing a lump,itchyness,shaking of the head,limping,runing poo anything like that there straight to the vet that day it doesn't matter if they have had runing poo for 1 day they go and get checked out. Yes my dogs might not be on the $100 dollar bag of food thats how much pro plan is here $112 for a 20kg bag,I can't afford that as i'm on the pension i have rent,bills,food for myself too you know. Yes i live with my parents but i still pay them rent each fornight. I did try hills science diet with Einstein it was no better to the cheap food i was feeding. Our cattle dog lived a happy life eatting cheap supermarket food,table scraps,raw meaty bones she lived to the age of 16. She lived through breast cancer and heartworm and still lived to the ripe old age of 16. I'm only buying cheap brand food like $30 for 22kgs but my dogs also get raw minced meat,raw meaty bones be it beef,lamb or chicken,raw egg once a week and omega 3,6 plus 9 every couple of days or more. I've had alot of comments of how beautifull my dogs coats are so its obbvisous that the food i'm feeding is doing good for them. Everyones training is different and i admit my dad has did wrong,but has now stopped. Some dogs require a little tap to get there attention and Shelley is one of them. Shelley is also the type of dog that you can't use food with she will just not listen just stand there looking at the food with drool coming out of her mouth. She responds better with praise and pats. Like i said theres not much a obedience club can do as i'm dong everything they do at home minus the food. Like i said the house is up for sale so when we move to the new town then i will take her to obedience clubs mainly to get her away from Einstein and to form a stronger bond then we do have, I also wouldn't mind doing agility with her too. So i do have plans for Shelley which will all fall into line when we move. Einstein never went to obedience clubs and everyone who has meet him always comment of how well behaved and obedient he is. I've had that same comment with Shelley when she was 6 months old a lady said she is quite obedient for her age.


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