# Aggression at 10 months



## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

I apologize if any of this is repetitive.

It's not uncommon to see an increase in behavior at this age.
- Sometimes this is attributed to adolescence (I don't know if I buy that).
- Sometimes this is attributed to a second fear period (I don't know about that either).
- Sometimes it's an accumulation of experiences before then and the puppy is growing confident enough to say he's nervous rather than displaying more subtle signs.

And like you have been looking into - sometimes there are medical reasons.

Unfortunately this is one of my training 'specialty' areas... and we see it a lot. Sometimes we see puppies who graduated from our puppy class - and rarely are we surprised about those individuals. It can be hard to persuade families of 12 week old puppies that we are very concerned about the arousal level/fear around other dogs - the subtle signs are easy to miss. 

Care for Reactive Dogs may be of use.

It may be helpful to think about "ABC" - Antecedent - Behavior - Consequence.
Antecedents: Avoid the situations./prompts as much as possible (so that you don't get the behavior). Also, make a list and find a way to systematically change the behavior/consequence of that antecedent. Example - we teach similar dogs that seeing another dog means turn to the handler for a reward.
Behavior: We aren't necessarily changing a behavior - we can manipulate the antecedents and consequences to get a change in behavior. Spend time teaching the behaviors you like (relaxation, calm past a distraction, etc) in other environments than the super busy neighborhood etc.
Consequence: "aggression" is typically a 'distance increasing' behavior - the dog wanting more space. This means that we are faced with a dilemma when we misjudge, get to close, and barking/lunging happens - do we remove the dog (and have "aggression" work but minimize the time practicing it and prevent the dog from escalating) or do we not. I usually do remove the dog, gently guiding him a way to a distance where he can think and then we're just more careful in the following sessions. We can also use distance as a consequence for good behaviors (neutral or appeasement in "BAT" (google that if you haven't come across it yet) and affiliation behaviors "CAT" (less popular but arguably better)). The key is to work at a smaller level than getting the whole aggressive display.

Distance. Controlled practice. Quickly and systematically increase the challenge.

reactivechampion.blogspot.com can be great reading too - go to the "best of" page and start there.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

SwimDog said:


> I apologize if any of this is repetitive.
> 
> It's not uncommon to see an increase in behavior at this age.
> - Sometimes this is attributed to adolescence (I don't know if I buy that).
> ...


Thank you Swim Dog. I am actually enrolled in a BAT class at the training center that is owned by Geisha Stewart herself. Unfortunately, our first session isn't for another month, but I have the book and will try to start utilizing some of the tools immediately. I haven't heard of CAT, but will look into to. Thank you for all the resources! 

Based on your experience, is this something that when addressed early on, can be managed well enough to be able to do the things I hope to do with my dog one day? Hiking, swimming, and walks down the street without fear are the main things I really want to have with my boy.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Well - do some reading on BAT vs CAT - (the former evolved from the latter). My understanding is one is about affiliative social behaviors (CAT) vs BAT which is more about appeasement behaviors. I hope you have a good time in class - please share about it here and/or PM, I'm very, very curious. I've followed her development for years but haven't been able to (justify) making it to one of her seminars when she's been out in the midwest.

In terms of expected progress:
- Interest/value of rewards is the primary predictor of success
- How long the behavior has been practiced
- How much is anxiety vs a learned strategy for coping (maybe this is a fine line....but say a dog who is generally anxious vs one who had a few bad experiences - the genetically anxious dog will usually not make as much progress).
- Conflict with the handler (makes things harder).

I've not seen you and your dog, and even then it's hard to guess. Most families we work with can end up going on walks, hiking, swimming - but they have to adjust the locations, duration of visit, proximity, etc to make it a safe and appropriate experience which really varies from dog to dog - but mostly because there is a different amount of energy, time, and money available to make progress, and the further you go in training any skill, the slower progress gets (little details vs bigger things). It's also hard to find enough controlled training opportunities.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

You might want to take a look at this thread.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-behavioral-problems-issues/299937-coming-age-dog-aggression.html


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Max's Dad said:


> You might want to take a look at this thread.
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-behavioral-problems-issues/299937-coming-age-dog-aggression.html


Thanks Max's dad! As soon as I realized Lloyd was acting aggressive I did read that entire thread a week or two ago. It was actually what made me ask to have a thyroid panel run in the first place! I actually ended up hijacking the thread at the end and feel kind of bad about it. I wrote the saga about my pup's thyroid issue on there and my frustration with my current/soon to be former vet. I really do hope that I will learn more this week from my new vet once I get the results of the thyroid panel which was run at MSU. Hopefully, I'll get some clarity regarding whether my boy does have a thyroid issue and what our next steps should be. Hopefully, within the next week or two I'll definitely know if this thyroid issue has anything to do with his aggressiveness or not. Either way, I'm not waiting to address the aggressiveness and am reading up on BAT and will take a training course that starts in the next few weeks. Thank you again. 

It feels great to have support on here. Having an aggressive dog makes me feel so isolated as I can't take him everywhere with me like I had been able to do in the past. It's just such a change and I feel like I'm mourning the life I thought we were going to have.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

For those of you have dog on dog aggression issues, what solutions have you found for care for your dog when you must travel? I typically need to travel for work once every month for 2 - 3 nights. I have been using a great sitter, but she always has other dogs and I no longer feel safe having him stay there as he may react to one of the other dogs. I have a neighbor who will watch him, but he is not available the next time I'm traveling. Unfortunately, I'm newer to the area I live so I don't have a ton of friends or any family who I can ask for help. He's intact, so a boarding facility is out of the question. 

I'm currently looking to find a sitter that doesn't have their own dogs and/or will come to my home and stay with me while I'm out of town. Any other ideas? What have you typically done?

Thanks again in advance!


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Just wanted to update everyone who was kind enough to post on this thread... after fighting what feels like an epic battle to get some answers, I switched vets and learned my boy is hypothyroid. I haven't yet started meds as I finally just got new lab results this evening, but suspect that once he's on the right dose some of the behavior issues will lessen. I'll certainly let all of you know. Thank goodness for this forum as I never would have thought to ask my vet to check his thyroid and would just assume I have a naughty/aggressive dog. I really hope some of the behavior issues lessen. Even with this diagnosis, I also have him scheduled for BAT (behavior adjustment therapy training), a meeting with a veterinary nutritionist, and veterinary behaviorist. I'm determined to give Lloyd and myself every possible chance at a normal, happy, aggression free (or nearly free) life.


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## goldens9 (Apr 7, 2020)

This can happen after the rabies shot. The rabies shot does damage some dogs brains to becoming much more aggressive. I spoke to a retired vet about this. He said a lot more young dogs and puppies are becoming aggressive or severely aggressive after the rabies shot. Also he said if the parent dogs were given a rabies vaccine every year most their lives, then both parents may have passed down some brain damage from the rabies overvaccination. He specialized in rabies vaccines for a state and said this is a very common side effect. He didn't know when he took the job how bad the problem was with the rabies shot till he started seeing these aggression issues first hand after the rabies shots and the many complaints from pet owners. He now is retired but said across the board, a lot more puppies and young dogs are becoming more and more aggressive after the rabies shot, it is a side effect of brain damage to the brain. Unfortunately the rabies shot is sold more for profit then protection. Some dogs do become rabid after the rabies shot and have to be killed because of the shot. He has seen and heard about this from other vets. But said it is all kept quiet and undercover so the manufacturers can force all pet owners to buy a rabies shot so they don't care how many dogs become aggressive, severely aggressive or rabid and have to be killed, the bottom line is the profit. Also said most vets keep this quiet as well, as each year when pet owners brings pets in for yearly rabies shot, that gives them a chance to sell a health check, sell other shots, sell flea tick pesticides, sell other services and sell other products so they don't care how many may be damaged by the shot as this is a way to sell lots of stuff to pet owners every year when they come in. It is unfortunate that dogs are damaged by it in the name of money and the pet owners have to deal with the effect of the rabies shot and cause of the aggression and have to learn how to try to manage the aggression caused by the rabies shot. When had the dog not been brain damaged, then they would not have to deal with aggression. So sad. I went thru this, with the sweetest golden that became severely aggressive after the rabies shot. All we could do was try to manage the aggression. It was heartbreaking, as this never had to happen but it was brain damage. Have an acquaintance said his dog had rabid episodes, did not recognize the family and would corner them with aggression, would be locked up in a room till the rabid episode would go away in a day, so the rabid dog would chew thru the door. The rabid episodes became more and more frequent and too dangerous. He was a sweet loving dog when he was not having a rabid episode, but dangerous when he had them, so finally the tough decision after a year, with the vet was to kill him which the family said was heart wrenching, but it was that or lock him up in a chain link pen with a chain link top in a prison cell for the rest of his life, so when the rabid episodes happen, no one was at risk of being attacked. Which they felt was a miserable life for a dog that was use to freedom on a fenced acre yard.


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## tikiandme (May 16, 2010)

goldens9 said:


> This can happen after the rabies shot. The rabies shot does damage some dogs brains to becoming much more aggressive. I spoke to a retired vet about this. He said a lot more young dogs and puppies are becoming aggressive or severely aggressive after the rabies shot. Also he said if the parent dogs were given a rabies vaccine every year most their lives, then both parents may have passed down some brain damage from the rabies overvaccination. He specialized in rabies vaccines for a state and said this is a very common side effect. He didn't know when he took the job how bad the problem was with the rabies shot till he started seeing these aggression issues first hand after the rabies shots and the many complaints from pet owners. He now is retired but said across the board, a lot more puppies and young dogs are becoming more and more aggressive after the rabies shot, it is a side effect of brain damage to the brain. Unfortunately the rabies shot is sold more for profit then protection. Some dogs do become rabid after the rabies shot and have to be killed because of the shot. He has seen and heard about this from other vets. But said it is all kept quiet and undercover so the manufacturers can force all pet owners to buy a rabies shot so they don't care how many dogs become aggressive, severely aggressive or rabid and have to be killed, the bottom line is the profit. Also said most vets keep this quiet as well, as each year when pet owners brings pets in for yearly rabies shot, that gives them a chance to sell a health check, sell other shots, sell flea tick pesticides, sell other services and sell other products so they don't care how many may be damaged by the shot as this is a way to sell lots of stuff to pet owners every year when they come in. It is unfortunate that dogs are damaged by it in the name of money and the pet owners have to deal with the effect of the rabies shot and cause of the aggression and have to learn how to try to manage the aggression caused by the rabies shot. When had the dog not been brain damaged, then they would not have to deal with aggression. So sad. I went thru this, with the sweetest golden that became severely aggressive after the rabies shot. All we could do was try to manage the aggression. It was heartbreaking, as this never had to happen but it was brain damage. Have an acquaintance said his dog had rabid episodes, did not recognize the family and would corner them with aggression, would be locked up in a room till the rabid episode would go away in a day, so the rabid dog would chew thru the door. The rabid episodes became more and more frequent and too dangerous. He was a sweet loving dog when he was not having a rabid episode, but dangerous when he had them, so finally the tough decision after a year, with the vet was to kill him which the family said was heart wrenching, but it was that or lock him up in a chain link pen with a chain link top in a prison cell for the rest of his life, so when the rabid episodes happen, no one was at risk of being attacked. Which they felt was a miserable life for a dog that was use to freedom on a fenced acre yard.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Some information that is Health related has been posted in this thread, 

As a reminder, I want to post the following information that was originally posted by the Site Administrators regarding such posts. 

(1) "About Threads and Posts in GRF Health Forum" | Golden Retriever Dog Forums (goldenretrieverforum.com) 


*You are entitled to your opinions on what you believe may or may not be a health issue, or what may or may not work to help an animal in its overall health.

However if a post or thread is stated as a fact you may be asked to prove your statements, even with scientific articles, so others may know where you obtain your information.

This forum does not substitute the use, or recommendations, of your veterinarian.

Use this forum for informational purposes only.

I would also suggest you check your Local, County and State Laws. *


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