# The "bridge" - and Rewarding Your Dog



## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

Sorry Joel, my mind went to "Rainbow Bridge" and I was a bit confused as we have that section here on the Forum. 
About the bridge, I have been rewarding Harry (17 weeks old) after he goes into his crate and after I lock the door. I give a small food reward. Now, I also wait for him to sit nice in the crate, then reward. How do I transition away from food? I tried just saying Good Boy and when he doesn't get the food reward, he seems ticked off at me.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

SoGolden said:


> Sorry Joel, my mind went to "Rainbow Bridge" and I was a bit confused as we have that section here on the Forum.
> About the bridge, I have been rewarding Harry (17 weeks old) after he goes into his crate and after I lock the door. I give a small food reward. Now, I also wait for him to sit nice in the crate, then reward. How do I transition away from food? I tried just saying Good Boy and when he doesn't get the food reward, he seems ticked off at me.


Start off slow with that transition moving away from food, especially with a dog 17 weeks old. I think a mistake people make is going a little too fast. I would start off with feeding him 90% of the time for going in the crate, so 9 out of 10 times... do that for about a week... and the next week.. 80%... I think you see where I am going.. does that make sense?


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## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

JoelSilverman said:


> Start off slow with that transition moving away from food, especially with a dog 17 weeks old. I think a mistake people make is going a little too fast. I would start off with feeding him 90% of the time for going in the crate, so 9 out of 10 times... do that for about a week... and the next week.. 80%... I think you see where I am going.. does that make sense?


I will give it a try! Thanks!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I've been working on the "pick it up" "hold it" and "out". I started with the dog we think is not as smart as the other. I was amazed at how quickly he I was able to stop helping to open his mouth and he actually was holding it and releasing on when I said, "out." The smart dog hid under the table! LOL


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## Ruger (May 12, 2008)

Ill have to try this. I have to admit- I started with the clicker stuff but didnt continue... Ruger is an incredibly fast learner and Ive taught him several things so far but Ill bet this would be an improvement and make it possible to teach him even better.


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## Ruger (May 12, 2008)

Thank you for that!


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

I want everyone's take on this... Especially the _"clicker trainers"_.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I am clicker challenged.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

A "clicker trainer" will still use something to convey to the dog that they are doing it right but not getting a reward yet. Often the cue for the next behavior is enough because that offers another possibility for reward (for example, in agility when the dog is touching the contact zone, you can reward that by giving the release cue to go on to the next obstacle). Or there will be some verbal "keep going signal" - like while the dog is staying on the table, you can't give anything that ends the behavior because the dog has to keep staying, so you use "good" or something like that.

I think the most common among "clicker trainers" is to have a click that always means treat, a verbal "click" that usually means treat but is also sometimes used when there are no treats around (I use "Yes!" both as a clicker when I don't have a clicker around and to mark certain behaviors in the agility ring), and a more general keep-going-signal like "good" for when the dog is in the process of a behavior.

If the dog is allowed to drop whatever he is holding after you say "out" but not before you say "out," I don't see how "out" can be anything but a cue to drop whatever he is holding ...


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Kimm said:


> I am clicker challenged.



I am just *"challenged"*


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> A "clicker trainer" will still use something to convey to the dog that they are doing it right but not getting a reward yet. Often the cue for the next behavior is enough because that offers another possibility for reward (for example, in agility when the dog is touching the contact zone, you can reward that by giving the release cue to go on to the next obstacle). Or there will be some verbal "keep going signal" - like while the dog is staying on the table, you can't give anything that ends the behavior because the dog has to keep staying, so you use "good" or something like that.
> 
> I think the most common among "clicker trainers" is to have a click that always means treat, a verbal "click" that usually means treat but is also sometimes used when there are no treats around (I use "Yes!" both as a clicker when I don't have a clicker around and to mark certain behaviors in the agility ring), and a more general keep-going-signal like "good" for when the dog is in the process of a behavior.
> 
> If the dog is allowed to drop whatever he is holding after you say "out" but not before you say "out," I don't see how "out" can be anything but a cue to drop whatever he is holding ...


How do you not figure it is the "bridge"? What does a clicker do differently than what the "out" did?


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I have a distance record for throwing a clicker. LOL


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I was in a conformation ring and the exhibitor behind was using a clicker. It about drove me nuts - reminded me of a co-worker who constantly clicked a pen during meetings. I could have thrown it farther than Hooch on that day...:doh:


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Kimm said:


> I am clicker challenged.


Me too. During our puppy class we had 1 week that was all clicker training. The trainer told us some of you will do very well with this. Others of you not so well. 

I was one of the others. LOL


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

If you say "out" and the dog drops whatever he's holding, and you only say "out" when the dog is holding something, and he always drops it when you say "out," it's pretty obviously the cue to drop it. You would not say "out" unless you wanted the dog to drop it. 

And that has nothing to do with training jargon. It's just common sense. I find it hard to believe that the pet owners you work with see that and say "ooh, he said out because the dog was doing a good job holding." No. They think you said "out" because you wanted the thing "out" of the dog's mouth.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Kimm said:


> I am clicker challenged.


I thought I was the only one!


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> If you say "out" and the dog drops whatever he's holding, and you only say "out" when the dog is holding something, and he always drops it when you say "out," it's pretty obviously the cue to drop it. You would not say "out" unless you wanted the dog to drop it.
> 
> And that has nothing to do with training jargon. It's just common sense. I find it hard to believe that the pet owners you work with see that and say "ooh, he said out because the dog was doing a good job holding." No. They think you said "out" because you wanted the thing "out" of the dog's mouth.


It is not a CUE, it still a "bridge".. the only thing a CUE does is initiate the sequence of events. What if I replaced my "out" with the sound of a clicker? Would you still call it a CUE?


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

You can cue the dog to sit, down, spin, and roll over. Do you claim that the only CUE is "sit" and the rest are bridges? You are doing the same thing - cueing the dog to pick up/hold, and then cueing the dog to drop it. You say "out" because you want the thing "out" of the dog's mouth.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yeah, I am with Katie here. If your dog dropped the item every time you clicked then yes, the click would be a cue to 'drop it' or 'out' IMO

I use drop it (because out is my go out command) but it's the same concept. "take it" is the first cue... "good, good hold!" is my "keep doing that, yes!" signal and "Drop it" is my cue to get the dog to drop the item. "Release" is my word for "let go of it into my hand" where drop it means "spit it out on the floor, just get it out of your mouth now" but still- same concept.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> You can cue the dog to sit, down, spin, and roll over. Do you claim that the only CUE is "sit" and the rest are bridges? You are doing the same thing - cueing the dog to pick up/hold, and then cueing the dog to drop it. You say "out" because you want the thing "out" of the dog's mouth.



There is a huge difference. _Those are completed behaviors_. Sit, down, spin , etc.. I totally understand you will give new CUES for each one. But the completed retrieve is the dog picking it up, holding it, and me saying "out". That is the whole behavior. For some reason, you guys are breaking the behavior up, using the "out" as a whole new behavior. It is not a new behavior. It is part of the whole behavior which is a retrieve _(pick it up....hold it..."out")_. 

But I still ask you the same question.. If I did not say "out", and I used a clicker instead, would you still think it was a CUE?


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

The dog dropping it IS another behavior. And if you only used a clicker when the dog is holding something, and the dog always dropped it when you clicked the clicker, then yes, the clicker would be a cue to drop it.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

JoelSilverman said:


> But I still ask you the same question.. If I did not say "out", and I used a clicker instead, would you still think it was a CUE?


If you had used a bridiging stimulus such as "good" or "yes" or a clicker or a whistle or a flash of light or frankly, much of anything other than words that conjure up the image of a dog letting go of an object -- it would make much more sense to me that you were using it as a bridge vs. a cue.

Going back to my and Mary's previous question from the other thread - why choose to use "out" as your bridiging stimulus? What's wrong with a short, stacatto "yes" or "good"?

What is your release cue, then? And I'm not talking about in retrieve videos. If you're shaping up duration on hold and bridiging it with "out", you won't have a release behavior on cue yet, I understand that.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> The dog dropping it IS another behavior. And if you only used a clicker when the dog is holding something, and the dog always dropped it when you clicked the clicker, then yes, the clicker would be a cue to drop it.


The clicker is not a CUE though. The clicker is a "bridge". The dog is not dropping, the dog is releasing. And it is all one behavior.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

JoelSilverman said:


> The clicker is not a CUE though. The clicker is a "bridge". The dog is not dropping, the dog is releasing. And it is all one behavior.


For some reason a clicker not being a Cue, makes total sense to me.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> If you had used a bridiging stimulus such as "good" or "yes" or a clicker or a whistle or a flash of light or frankly, much of anything other than words that conjure up the image of a dog letting go of an object -- it would make much more sense to me that you were using it as a bridge vs. a cue.
> 
> Going back to my and Mary's previous question from the other thread - why choose to use "out" as your bridiging stimulus? What's wrong with a short, stacatto "yes" or "good"?
> 
> What is your release cue, then? And I'm not talking about in retrieve videos. If you're shaping up duration on hold and bridiging it with "out", you won't have a release behavior on cue yet, I understand that.


*What's wrong with a short, stacatto "yes" or "good"? Nothing.. if that is what you want to use..*

Why do I choose "out"? Because it has worked awesome for me for 25 years, and every other animal trainer that I have work with. I think I had mentioned in some previous threads that I do use different bridges such as "good", but I would never use the word "yes".

Here is where you guys would be right. If I taught the dog to pick up an object in his mouth, and place it or drop it (which I train a lot) on the ground that would be a second behavior. So there would be a CUE for the dog to _place it_ or _drop it._ That is another behavior.

_But with the basic retrieve, the dog is not dropping it or placing it. He is releasing it... opening his mouth_. As a matter of fact you will see by the videos later in the sequence, I teach the dog that just because I reach for the object, that does not mean to release it. It is only released when I "bridge" him. You are right Kim!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I guess it is like "it depends on what the definition of "is" is".


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

JoelSilverman said:


> It is not a CUE, it still a "bridge".. the only thing a CUE does is initiate the sequence of events. What if I replaced my "out" with the sound of a clicker? Would you still call it a CUE?


Then, the dog should hear that clicker and continue to hold. The click would tell him "yes, that is right", not signal him to release. Simplistically,if I put my dog on a down/stay and walk 50 feet away, when I do click, it tells him he is right, and he continues to stay until whenever I say "Okay". The click tells him a reward is coming, but does not release him.. If your dog holds something in his mouth, using "out" as a bridge should result in him continuing to hold it, having been given the feedback that he is right. Dropping an object is a big deal and a definite second action to a dog who is clear on hold.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

JoelSilverman said:


> The clicker is not a CUE though. The clicker is a "bridge". The dog is not dropping, the dog is releasing. And it is all one behavior.


She didn't say the clicker was a CUE. Nobody has said the clicker is a cue. She gave a correct example of how one could turn the sound of a clicker into a cue of they were so inclined.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Isn't a click given to reinforce a Cue that has been followed successfully? I'd better go back and read all the posts. I'm confusing myself.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Then, the dog should hear that clicker and continue to hold. The click would tell him "yes, that is right", not signal him to release.


Doesn't a clicker mean "yes"? Why would he not release?


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> She didn't say the clicker was a CUE. Nobody has said the clicker is a cue. She gave a correct example of how one could turn the sound of a clicker into a cue of they were so inclined.



Yes someone did.. go back and read...


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

kimm said:


> isn't A Click Given To Reinforce A Cue That Has Been Followed Successfully? I'd Better Go Back And Read All The Posts. I'm Confusing Myself.


Yes!!! Thank You!!!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*Why do I choose "out"? Because it has worked awesome for me for 25 years, and every other animal trainer that I have work with. I think I had mentioned in some previous threads that I do use different bridges such as "good", but I would never use the word "yes".*

I've met an awful lot of trainers - from industry set trainers to Karen Pryor - and I've not seen one use "out" as a bridge. It's certainly an interesting choice, and I'm sure you can see how it could create confusion - especially among the general pet owning population (which I assume you're targeting with your website). A person hears you say "out" and the next thing they see is a dog opening his mouth to release an item... certainly gives the impression that "out" is being used as a cue. It's also odd to me that you claim to have this special bridge ("out") that you only use for retrieve work. But hey, you've already said you have your own, unique way of doing things and if it's working for you, rock on, man!

You still haven't answered my question of, in general, what is your CUE for a dog to release something? I've asked three times!


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Then, the dog should hear that clicker and continue to hold. The click would tell him "yes, that is right", not signal him to release. Simplistically,if I put my dog on a down/stay and walk 50 feet away, when I do click, it tells him he is right, and he continues to stay until whenever I say "Okay". The click tells him a reward is coming, but does not release him.. If your dog holds something in his mouth, using "out" as a bridge should result in him continuing to hold it, having been given the feedback that he is right. Dropping an object is a big deal and a definite second action to a dog who is clear on hold.



Two totally different situations. I would do the same thing you do on the stay, but there must be a message sent to the dog that I am happy with him holding the object. _Not to drop it or place it_.. That is the bridge. Remember that I am bridging the animal for holding the object.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

JoelSilverman said:


> Doesn't a clicker mean "yes"? Why would he not release?


Why would he? Yes is a positive status update to the dog telling him he is doing right. If he hears "yes" for holding an object, he will keep holding if he has learned how to learn in that mode.

He wouldnt release for the same reason my dog on a down/stay doesnt get up after hearing yes/or a click. He has gotten the information that he is correct, so he keeps doing it until released. Yes , or a click can't release. There has to be a release word like "Okay" before the dog can drop something out that he is holding or rise from a down if he is staying.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimm 
isn't A Click Given To Reinforce A Cue That Has Been Followed Successfully? I'd Better Go Back And Read All The Posts. I'm Confusing Myself. 

Yes!!! Thank You!!!!


JoelSilverman said:


> Yes!!! Thank You!!!!


Not to open ANOTHER can of worms, but no, a click (or more accurately, a bridging stimulus, of which the click is one type) isn't ALWAYS used to reinforce a cue that's been followed successfully. When shaping a behavior, there is no cue in the early stages, so the click serves to tell the animal when he has successfully met the current behavior criteria.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

[QUOTE. When shaping a behavior, there is no cue in the early stages, so the click serves to tell the animal when he has successfully met the current behavior criteria.[/QUOTE]

That's completely true. I agree with that. When the click/ "yes"/ whatever/ is heard, the dog seeks to figure out/repeat the behavior that elicited the positive feedback.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> *Why do I choose "out"? Because it has worked awesome for me for 25 years, and every other animal trainer that I have work with. I think I had mentioned in some previous threads that I do use different bridges such as "good", but I would never use the word "yes".*
> 
> I've met an awful lot of trainers - from industry set trainers to Karen Pryor - and I've not seen one use "out" as a bridge. It's certainly an interesting choice, and I'm sure you can see how it could create confusion - especially among the general pet owning population (which I assume you're targeting with your website). A person hears you say "out" and the next thing they see is a dog opening his mouth to release an item... certainly gives the impression that "out" is being used as a cue. It's also odd to me that you claim to have this special bridge ("out") that you only use for retrieve work. But hey, you've already said you have your own, unique way of doing things and if it's working for you, rock on, man!
> 
> You still haven't answered my question of, in general, what is your CUE for a dog to release something? I've asked three times!


If you like what Karen Pryor brings, great. She has some OK ideas.

To answer your question, in the retrieve videos, as I am training the dog to release the object, there is no CUE. I only use a "bridge". This is only in training.

Once the dog is trained to hold it and release it, down the road I will most likely train the dog to either place the object on the ground or drop it. I will use CUES for that which are visual.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by kimm
> isn't A Click Given To Reinforce A Cue That Has Been Followed Successfully? I'd Better Go Back And Read All The Posts. I'm Confusing Myself.
> 
> ...


I beg to differ.. you need to define the early stages.... another difference with me, I introduce a CUE as early as possible!!

The CUE - I tell the dog to "pick it up"
The RESPONSE - He picks it up and holds it
The Bridge and reward - I say the word "out" and he releases the object and he is rewarded


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

JoelSilverman said:


> I beg to differ.. you need to define the early stages.... another difference with me, I introduce a CUE as early as possible!!
> 
> The CUE - I tell the dog to "pick it up"
> The RESPONSE - He picks it up and holds it
> The Bridge and reward - I say the word "out" and he releases the object and he is rewarded


And if it works for you, rock on. I train w/in the circle of thinkers who prefer to w/hold the introduction of the cue until you are starting to reliably get the behavior you want.

That's why cars come in different colors, I guess.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> And if it works for you, rock on. I train w/in the circle of thinkers who prefer to w/hold the introduction of the cue until you are starting to reliably get the behavior you want.
> 
> That's why cars come in different colors, I guess.


Well "rock on"..


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by kimm
> isn't A Click Given To Reinforce A Cue That Has Been Followed Successfully? I'd Better Go Back And Read All The Posts. I'm Confusing Myself.
> 
> ...


How does one "ask for a behavior" without a Cue? What is the definition of a Cue?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Kimm said:


> How does one "ask for a behavior" without a Cue? What is the definition of a Cue?


A "cue" is a discriminitive stimulus that lets the animal know that successful completion of the cued behavior should = reinforcement at that moment. Think of "cue" as a green light for a dog to perform a known behavior.

In shaping, you build the behavior in tiny increments. Let's say I'm shaping a dog to spin to the left. I'd first watch for the dog to glance to the left, C/T, (click/treat), then I'd want a glance of the eyes + a little shift of the head to the left, C/T, then I'd want those things + shifting body weight to the left, C/T, and so on until the dog was completing a full rotation to the left. I would choose to not add the cue until the dog was fully aware that what I wanted was for him to rotate a full 360 degrees to the left. Once he was committed to offering full rotations, that's when I'd start to introduce the cue. I don't add it earlier b/c I want to make sure the dog's mind has attached the cue with what I want as the finished version of the behavior. Sometimes if you add the cue too early, the cue gets mistakenly attached to a not quite perfect version of the behavior.

Even if I'm luring and not shaping, I'll still wait on the cue until I'm certain that I can successfully get the dog into position using the lure in about 2 seconds or less.  Then I'll use the cue a nano second before I lure the dog into position. The dog learns that the lure/gesture always follows the new and presently unknown word, and eventually starts to respond to just the word cue due to the pattern. That's how I transition from gestural cues to verbal ones when a verbal cue is my goal.

Most clicker trainers don't like inserting a cue too early - at the point where the dog isn't clear on what you want - b/c of the risk that the uncertainty might be associated with the cue in the dog's mind.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Also, keep in mind that when shaping, you generally want to have a clicker savvy dog who is used to, well, "behaving"... not in the well-mannered way, but a dog who will do stuff -- anything --- You can't shape a new behavior on a dog who is just standing there staring at you. People who regularly shape have taught their dogs that "trying new things" is a great game b/c they never know what we might decide we like and will reinforce for.

But like I said, even if you're not shaping and are attempting to train behaviors with luring or prompting, I still like to withold the cue for a bit until I feel the dog has a better understanding of what I'm going for. I see students lure a spin and start saying "spin" the very first time they try to lure -- when generally they're winging the food around too fast for the dog to follow, so the dog isn't successfully completing a spin, but they're still chanting "spin.... spin" as if just saying the word will make the dog suddenly rotate! To me, not only is that sloppy training, but you risk desensitizing the dog to the cue in the future b/c he's gotten to used to you saying it over and over again while he's just standing there trying to figure out what you want.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> A "cue" is a discriminitive stimulus that lets the animal know that successful completion of the cued behavior should = reinforcement at that moment. Think of "cue" as a green light for a dog to perform a known behavior.
> 
> In shaping, you build the behavior in tiny increments. Let's say I'm shaping a dog to spin to the left. I'd first watch for the dog to glance to the left, C/T, (click/treat), then I'd want a glance of the eyes + a little shift of the head to the left, C/T, then I'd want those things + shifting body weight to the left, C/T, and so on until the dog was completing a full rotation to the left. I would choose to not add the cue until the dog was fully aware that what I wanted was for him to rotate a full 360 degrees to the left. Once he was committed to offering full rotations, that's when I'd start to introduce the cue. I don't add it earlier b/c I want to make sure the dog's mind has attached the cue with what I want as the finished version of the behavior. Sometimes if you add the cue too early, the cue gets mistakenly attached to a not quite perfect version of the behavior.
> 
> ...


In simple words, it begins, or cues the behavior. It could be visual or verbal.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Or even a non-verbal, auditory sound.


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## JoelSilverman (Oct 21, 2008)

*What actually is being "bridged"*

I just want to make sure you all knew what I was actually "bridging" with the retrieve. If you watch the videos, you will see that in some of the later videos I will reach in and touch the object, but notice that I am not always taking the object. What I am waiting for is the dog biting down on the object. That is what he is being "bridged" for. Once I "bridge", he opens his mouth and releases the object to get the reward. But I did want to clarify that the "bridge" is for holding the object as you will see in the videos.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Yup. Pointed that out in post #23. Thanks for clarifying for the others.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I have no desire to use a clicker or any need for it. My boys are well trained/well mannered dogs who are a pleasure to have at home and in public.


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