# Movement



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Reach and drive... propelled from the rear. Think horses...


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

Got it! The differences I see are basically what you'd get on a fresh horse vs. a relaxed and focused horse - her excited trot is more up and down, but with tons of drive from the hind end (like just before a horse explodes and dumps you!)... the regular is much more fluid and correct, because it has that reach to it too. 

Her movement flaw is not being able to put the two together to get that equal hind end drive pushing her forward into a reaching longer step. She's got drive to it, but I don't think quite as much as she does when she's excited and more up and down.

For an SPCA special she sure is a nice moving doggie.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Reach and drive... propelled from the rear. Think horses...


Do you know if there is a video somewhere showing ideal movement? 

I don't show conformation, but it's one of those things I've been somewhat curious about too. Not just about my own golden, but when I go to dog shows (to watch). We place friendly bets and I'm always wrong with the goldens. The ones I think have great movement and are showing their hearts out are always left standing on the other side while other goldens who seemed less impressive get pointed at. 

- 

About the only thing I know (conformation-wise) is that the front and back feet should not touch when the dog is extended out in a fast walk. 

Somebody told me too that "racking" (the dog picking up his front feet high) is a fault in the conformation ring, though in the obedience ring it's one of those things you hope your golden does (because in general it means his head is way up and raised towards you).


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> Do you know if there is a video somewhere showing ideal movement?
> 
> I don't show conformation, but it's one of those things I've been somewhat curious about too. Not just about my own golden, but when I go to dog shows (to watch). We place friendly bets and I'm always wrong with the goldens. The ones I think have great movement and are showing their hearts out are always left standing on the other side while other goldens who seemed less impressive get pointed at.
> 
> ...


 
It's wasted motion, which equals wasted energy. A dog, as a horse, with propulsion from the rear (drive) will cover more ground using less energy. 

The DogSteps video (or book, for that matter) is wonderful.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Isn't movement just so variable? I mean, a well put dog can move well but when you throw in other factors (hills, tight lead, tired dog, etc) you may not see what is really there, right? Isn't that one of the variables of showing a dog--one day you see a dog crabbing and might assume something is wrong, but then the next day it is straight as an arrow. Crabbing could've been caused by an external factor (pulling against the lead, etc). 

Am I right? That is how I understand it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

True.... but some goldens show a certain kind of natural movement when they are being shown, strutting, at full attention for a toy or a treat. It varies depending on the situation or the condition of the dog, but it is what he's capable of doing when he's feeling his best and 'showing'. If that makes sense? 

I have had four goldens (which seems like so few compared to all the other people here), but I've only had one dog (the current one) who consistently moves out confidently and looks strong. Besides the racking which he does when he's happy. Ironically (haha), he's also the first golden I've had who has really good hips and elbows (two had questionable hips, the other one had bad elbows from 7 months onward). I guess that's part of the reason why movement is so important. 

I'm gathering for the purpose of golden retrievers, they are supposed to be strong legged dogs with a smooth and confident stride forward. <- Guessing from what I've seen.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just look at the Standard.

*Gait*
When trotting, gait is free, smooth, powerful and well coordinated, showing good reach. Viewed from any position, legs turn neither in nor out, nor do feet cross or interfere with each other. As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward center line of balance. It is recommended that dogs be shown on a loose lead to reflect true gait.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward center line of balance.


What does that mean?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> What does that mean?


 
Draw an imaginary line for the dog to move on. If the dog is moving towards you, as his speed increases, his front feet will be moving almost on the line - very nearly a single track. As his speed decreases, his feet will fall further apart - double tracking.

When converging, the center of gravity shifts towards that line, conserving energy, and allowing the dog more forward propulsion. If he were to be moving at speed without converging, he'd rock back and forth - a waste of energy just to remain upright while moving forward.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

So sort of like the reddish golden on this site's header? 

*I'm going to have to watch a few youtube videos with goldens re/conformation, and then have somebody walk my golden so I can see what his feet look like*


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> So sort of like the reddish golden on this site's header?
> 
> *I'm going to have to watch a few youtube videos with goldens re/conformation, and then have somebody walk my golden so I can see what his feet look like*


You cannot look at just the feet. How the topline and tail, and head are carried is important... Does the dog roll? Does he elbow out? Does he flip his wrists? Is he too close going away? Or, too wide (either coming or going...)? Is his movement effortless or is he pounding? There is so much to good movement - you cannot look at just one component.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> You cannot look at just the feet. How the topline and tail, and head are carried is important... Does the dog roll? Does he elbow out? Does he flip his wrists? Is he too close going away? Or, too wide (either coming or going...)? Is his movement effortless or is he pounding? There is so much to good movement - you cannot look at just one component.


I'm beginning to see... 

So, when he walks - his movement should not be like a bull dog (elbow out), hound dog (flipping his wrists) <- I get that.

What does 'too close going away' mean? The hocks too close?


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I haven't put too much thought into movement head on, other than do they paddle with their front end. This gives a lot of new perspective. I usually just look at the side and the rear (going away), but really paying attention to the movement from the front makes sense.

Horses don't have paws, so that part is a little different.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MillysMom said:


> I haven't put too much thought into movement head on, other than do they paddle with their front end. This gives a lot of new perspective. I usually just look at the side and the rear (going away), but really paying attention to the movement from the front makes sense.
> 
> Horses don't have paws, so that part is a little different.


Really? My old gelding, Cygnet, would give you five if you asked...:


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Really? My old gelding, Cygnet, would give you five if you asked...:


Cygent sounds like one in a million. Kind of like my favorite *gasp* mare, that will throw her feed tub at you if you ask, "do you care for seconds, Bubbles?"


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MillysMom said:


> Cygent sounds like one in a million. Kind of like my favorite *gasp* mare, that will throw her feed tub at you if you ask, "do you care for seconds, Bubbles?"


 
The kids at the barn taught him lots of tricks... Cygnet thought he was a dog, and follwed them everywhere.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I would add that good movement is energy conserving, so the dog should cover ground without looking like it is trying. A dog that looks "busy" on the move is not moving well. Rear feet should not be kicking up high, and front feet should not be extending past the nose. As well as the feet converging with speed the head should also be coming down _towards_ level as speed increases as it is part of that balance package--another reason why they should be shown on a loose lead.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URCKeGHKcgY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Tq2U8xzcg

Movement should be effortless, long stride, good reach, level mover.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FWIW - I thought I'd check back in here and say I sat down yesterday and flipped through a huge golden retriever book that I got way back when my family got our first golden. This book has pictures (!) and details of goldens in the AKC shows from their entrance, through the year we got the book (mid-late 80's or early 90's, I think). It also had a huge section on the ideal conformation of goldens with pictures/diagrams and explanations of what is ideal and the common faults that aren't.

Hee. I now know what 'pacing' is. It's how my dog walks when he's relaxed or lazy. The ideal movement (pictures and descriptions) - I think my guy does that when we are training (when he isn't doing the faulty hackney movement), but I can't really be sure looking down at him while he's walking. All I can tell is I can see his paws reaching forward in front and he isn't pacing or 'track walking' (what we call it in my house). His feet on one side are going out and the feet on the other side are going in. At least from what I can tell. <- I have no idea how you could train dogs to walk on a lunge line, but it would have been helpful in this case. :

In the book - they did say that dogs generally do the 'pacing' movement when they are fatigued or in *poor conditioning.* <- I'm wondering if that is why it is often used as a signal or symptom of hip dysplasia? Um, even though I'm pretty sure my guy does it when he's lazy. 

One of the reasons why I love this book, btw, is generally if you have a pedigree golden, you can flip through and find dogs in their line and compare. <- The reason why I sat down with the book last night was because I was trying to figure out if my golden's early white whiskers is hereditary as my vet said, or if I should go back and insanely push them to do another urine analysis. :bowl:


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Aren't fatigued and poor conditioning the same thing? I mean if the dog is not in shape it will get tired more easily and slip into the pace. My dogs pace (more than I want them to) as I can not move fast enough with them to keep them in a trot. So they do the slow pace easier than the slow trot. Note... Max NEVER paced..: I do bike with Teddi and Belle so they can get the trot going and keep it going. 

I think the reason the pace gets put with HD, is because it can be an easier motion for a dog with sore hips. However it is and never will be a symptom of HD by itself. 

I do try to watch the dogs at shows and pick out what I believe to be a good mover. I do base it on my knowledge of horses. Hard to see in a dog when they all deserve to be in the show ring. I am not as versed as I am in the horse world... but learning. Of course dogs don't orbit the ring as many times as the horses do to be studied. LOL

OK side note - It always amazes me how many people I meet on boards, at trials, anywhere that started in horses. The other day I was talking how it surprises me there are not more younger people involved as at least in agility their young bodies would have an advantage. My friend I was talking to replied "that is because they are all still riding". LOL

Ann


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Maxs Mom said:


> OK side note - It always amazes me how many people I meet on boards, at trials, anywhere that started in horses. The other day I was talking how it surprises me there are not more younger people involved as at least in agility their young bodies would have an advantage. My friend I was talking to replied "that is because they are all still riding". LOL
> 
> Ann


To continue with your side note: I started in horses too and as a young person got interested in dogs during that time. My parents were quite happy about my involvement with horses and financially helped out, took me to lessons, events, etc... But when I showed an interest in dogs, it sure required a lot of begging and pleading to get to even one class. Years and years later they still give me a hard time about deciding to go with dogs.... "I wish you had kept riding...." 

I've had quite a few kids in agility classes. I LOVE them! 

But these dog games are sure different in horses in that we typically learn with super beginner dogs....I'm willing to bet my students would be more skilled more quickly if I could get them to spend some time handling experienced dogs...but setting up a class structure and student interest in that would be the challenge.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> But these dog games are sure different in horses in that we typically learn with super beginner dogs....I'm willing to bet my students would be more skilled more quickly if I could get them to spend some time handling experienced dogs...but setting up a class structure and student interest in that would be the challenge.


The thing I always hear is that the second dog will be a lot easier because you won't make the same mistakes you made with the first one. So far, that is very true with me and my little guy....


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

My second golden was a habitual pacer--she paced as a pup, and that's what made me take her to the vet at 6 months to have her hips x-rayed--the vet at the time made me sit with an ortho specialist who I did not know and say she needed brand new hips--hip dysplasia---waaaaa?????

I went for a second opinion, to the ortho vet that a majority of the breeders in the area use, and he looked at me as if I needed a new brain--said there was nothing wrong with her. At the age of two, she OFA'd "good." So yes, pacing in and of itself does not mean hip dysplasia. I can give anecdotal proof. Alli was a laid back golden--not very athletic. She was a bit long for her height. She had beautiful shoulder layback and nice rear angulation--but it took a lot to get her and keep her in shape, especially since she loved to be first at the food bowl.

Her older cousin Jake was shorter coupled and straighter--but far more athletic. When Alli put her mind to it, she could cover ground more quickly, with fewer steps than Jake could. But 9.9 times out of 10, at all breed shows in veteran classes, Jake would beat Alli because he used every inch of himself and showed more athleticism doing it.

The jury is still out on Mac, a niece of Alli's. She has lovely breed type and she is an athlete. Her angles are moderate and she is slowly maturing. She's not a pacer, but to me, when I look at her, she still has yet to totally put it all together. 

When my husband goes to dog shows with me, he'll take photos of all the goldens in the ring, not just our own--you really get a chance to see which ones do not appear to be in good condition (tongue hanging out of their mouth at the first go round); which ones could have better foot timing; which ones have level toplines--and which ones have a break in the top line--which ones look like they don't want to be there and don't appear to use all their structure to move--and which ones are on their game and don't appear to put a foot down wrong--and despite people who like to complain about judges--the judges can usually pick those dogs out!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Both Belle and Teddi are longer through the back too... Yes I find that probably contributes to their pacing... as well as being vertically challenged myself. My legs are just long enough to reach the ground. :

I like your anecdote. 

Ann


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Scout preferred mode is an easy-going trot, however, her trot is faster than I can walk so she often paces when on slow leashed walks. When she was a little puppy she would trot all the time on walks, but as she got bigger so did the stride and the trot is too fast for my slow walk. This of course, is when the pulling tendency came out as she still wanted to trot...

Anyway, as a novice I have been told by several that her movement is very nice and correct when she trots. When off-leash and left on her own she will trot--so I think having to walk slow on a leash walk can contribute to pacing.


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

diana_D said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URCKeGHKcgY
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Tq2U8xzcg
> 
> Movement should be effortless, long stride, good reach, level mover.


 main way to learn about movement is watch as much as you can.

I watched this at crufts and although they both moved well I thought the bitch moved better, it hard to tell on the video though.

I been told my lad move well, he has good reach and drive, but isn;t the most level mover in the word.

I have noticed resently there been quite a few gay tails creaping in.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

vixen said:


> main way to learn about movement is watch as much as you can.
> 
> I watched this at crufts and although they both moved well I thought the bitch moved better, it hard to tell on the video though.
> 
> ...



I really love the way Emil is moving, he is outstanding. Perhaps you mean Crufts 2009? Kelly's Lemon (Dutch Consolidation Who's Next) moves super and I think she was better than the male.


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

diana_D said:


> I really love the way Emil is moving, he is outstanding. Perhaps you mean Crufts 2009? Kelly's Lemon (Dutch Consolidation Who's Next) moves super and I think she was better than the male.


No this year, TBH I didn't think much of the dog CC winner. 

We all have different tastes.


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