# What is your religion ?



## kezia14

Aha !! 
Im interest with this topic, this forum is open to the world, right ? So there are many different religious of one and each of our members here...
Actually im CHRISTIAN...

I want to know more about all of you guys !!!:


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## lovealways_jami

:wave:I'm Catholic ... Nice to meet you... haha


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## Emmysourgolden

Catholic here too.


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## cubbysan

I am Catholic, too.


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## Charlie06

Christian


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## rosemary

none for me caused far too many problems in my life sorry toanyone who i offend


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## Carsonsdaddy

Christian. Grew up in the church. Pastor's son. Now I work with high school students in our church, and also lead worship (guitar and sing).


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## Ninde'Gold

Was raised Catholic and am now nothing  LOL


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## LifeOfRiley

Ah, one of the two most dangerous topics: religion and politics. 

I had to go with "Other." 
I don't subscribe to any organized religion. If I HAD to choose one that most closely matched my beliefs, I suppose it would be Christian. But my personal beliefs are a bit unorthodox, to say the least.


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## kezia14

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Christian. Grew up in the church. Pastor's son. Now I work with high school students in our church, and also lead worship (guitar and sing).


 
So,,,
Teach me about bible !!!
OK ????:


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## Penny'smom

Lutheran by upbringing. I have invented my own religion: reverence for God, home and family, all God's creatures, caretaker of our earth and the golden rule.

I'm really not interested in anything that means I have to get up early, shower, get dressed and go out on Sunday mornings. I'm content to worship with a cup of tea from the swing in my shade garden, Golden at my feet, while the sun comes up.


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## Farley Rocks!

I will be marrying a Pagan, my son is a Christian, my soon to be step daughter is Jewish Agnostic and I am none of the above! If humanitarian was considered a religion - that's what I would be  We all go to the Universalist Unitarian Church...who else would take us all - LOL!


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## Jazzys Mom

I am a Bible believing, God loving Christian.

Do you have Bibles in Indonesia? How is the Christian religion looked upon there? Do you have freedom to worship openly? 

Jazzys Mom


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## mist

My mums parents were Jewish, (had to leave Germany very quickly) but passed away when she was very young; as there was no other family she was brought up in Nazareth House so became Catholic, she was actual a novice, with plans to become a nun but things went horribly wrong… I was raised to believe in free will, good over evil but not much else


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## kezia14

Jazzys Mom said:


> Do you have Bibles in Indonesia? How is the Christian religion looked upon there? Do you have freedom to worship openly?
> 
> Jazzys Mom


 
Yes we have...We have many church here...:
We are free to go to chruch, or make fellowship upon us, and we are free in celebrating our religion day....
We are free here !!!


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## Farley Rocks!

I'm really not interested in anything that means I have to get up early, shower, get dressed and go out on Sunday mornings. I'm content to worship with a cup of tea from the swing in my shade garden, Golden at my feet, while the sun comes up.[/quote]

Now THAT sounds like HEAVEN to me


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## Lego&Jacub

I said Christian... but I haven't been to church since I was a child. I'm more of a "do unto others'" and "be the best good person you can be" sorta person... than one who reads the bible or goes to church.


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## lovealways_jami

Farley Rocks! said:


> I'm really not interested in anything that means I have to get up early, shower, get dressed and go out on Sunday mornings. I'm content to worship with a cup of tea from the swing in my shade garden, Golden at my feet, while the sun comes up.


Now THAT sounds like HEAVEN to me[/quote]

I have to agree with this one... DEF HEAVEN


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## Judi

I am really surprised that Jewish wasn't available for a "vote".
Are the Jewish people that much of a minority?


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## kezia14

Judi said:


> I am really surprised that Jewish wasn't available for a "vote".
> Are the Jewish people that much of a minority?


 
Wait !!! I try to add it !!!:


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## Judi

I am surprised that you didn't think of it in the first place.


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## Ninde'Gold

Don't be offended, I never would have thought of Islamic or Muslim.

And it's Buddhist, not Buddha.... right? 

There's too many religions to try and remember them all... what about Mormons, they're not on there LOL.


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## kezia14

yes, its buddhist


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## Judi

Who did think of these Religions?
It's still not listed.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Judi said:


> Who did think of these Religions?
> It's still not listed.


The original poster lives in Indonesia. The ones originally listed are most likely the ones she is familiar with. 

I will add Jewish to the poll.


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## kezia14

Carsonsdaddy said:


> The original poster lives in Indonesia. The ones originally listed are most likely the ones she is familiar with.
> 
> I will add Jewish to the poll.


 

Aha !!!
Thats correct !!!!


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## gold4me

I am Catholic and that is also Christian.


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## 1stGolden

I too had to choose other. Was raised Catholic, tried to re-establish but just couldn't quite handle it. I do consider myself quite spiritual, believing that "god" is us...and the goodliness (ok, probably not a word) of people and things are examples of "god" all around us. And karma....always karma...what I put out there, is what I'll get back. 
Interesting topic BTW.


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## Emmysourgolden

Judi said:


> I am surprised that you didn't think of it in the first place.


The OP is from Indonesia. No need to be offended.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Other

I don't believe in God, and while I have studied and enjoyed the Bible as an incredible and world changing work, and feel much of it is based in some truth, I do not believe it is the divinely inspired word of God. 

I believe in a life force or energy within all beings, but I don't think it is God in the traditional sense. I believe in fate, and that things happen because they should. Some people pray about and call that God. I simply call it life.

I believe in accepting all, believing in the best in people, and treating all living things with the same respect you yourself would like to have. I don't always succeed, but I try 

I do not believe in an afterlife- and the idea of absolute oblivion for all time does not scare me. 

I identify as an atheist, which some people sadly think means "hates God" or something. Actually, all it means is that I just plain DON'T believe in God. If I was unsure, I'd be agnostic  I don't hate God, or Christians, or anyone else based on his or her religion.

I don't believe in the Devil, or Hell, or Heaven, or any other "spin off" of any religion. Nor do I believe in ghosts, spirits, angels, or reincarnation (though that one I like and think would be totally cool).

The religion with the most appeal to me is Wicca, but like all other religions I have studied, it is too "far fetched" and I simply cannot make myself believe in any type of God, Goddess, or similar. Sometimes I wish I could, as I envy the comfort so many people get from their religious beliefs, but I am incapable of genuine belief in anything super natural.

So that's me 

Interesting poll!


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## Emmysourgolden

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Other
> 
> I don't believe in God, and while I have studied and enjoyed the Bible as an incredible and world changing work, and feel much of it is based in some truth, I do not believe it is the divinely inspired word of God.
> 
> I believe in a life force or energy within all beings, but I don't think it is God in the traditional sense. I believe in fate, and that things happen because they should. Some people pray about and call that God. I simply call it life.
> 
> I believe in accepting all, believing in the best in people, and treating all living things with the same respect you yourself would like to have. I don't always succeed, but I try
> 
> I do not believe in an afterlife- and the idea of absolute oblivion for all time does not scare me.
> 
> I identify as an atheist, which some people sadly think means "hates God" or something. Actually, all it means is that I just plain DON'T believe in God. If I was unsure, I'd be agnostic  I don't hate God, or Christians, or anyone else based on his or her religion.
> 
> I don't believe in the Devil, or Hell, or Heaven, or any other "spin off" of any religion. Nor do I believe in ghosts, spirits, angels, or reincarnation (though that one I like and think would be totally cool).
> 
> The religion with the most appeal to me is Wicca, but like all other religions I have studied, it is too "far fetched" and I simply cannot make myself believe in any type of God, Goddess, or similar. Sometimes I wish I could, as I envy the comfort so many people get from their religious beliefs, but I am incapable of genuine belief in anything super natural.
> 
> So that's me
> 
> Interesting poll!


That's so interesting to me. Not trying to start a fight, I just have a question about what you do think happens after you die. Do you think it's just like being asleep then? ACC, trust me when I say I am not starting a debate or anything. I love ya!!


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## AquaClaraCanines

Oh I have NO problem answering any question!! 

I think nothing happens. And that's okay with me. I believe it is like going to sleep, without dreams, at least once the dying process is over. I have watched multiple people and many animals pass away, and doesn't frighten me. The peace I see after is oddly beautiful to me.


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## Emmysourgolden

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Oh I have NO problem answering any question!!
> 
> I think nothing happens. And that's okay with me. I believe it is like going to sleep, without dreams, at least once the dying process is over. I have watched multiple people and many animals pass away, and doesn't frighten me. The peace I see after is oddly beautiful to me.


Well, sleeping is one of my favorite things so if you're right I'm good! LOL. 

My dad said when his dad, my grandpa, died. Right before he died his eyes got huge and fixated at the end of the bed. He was standing on one side and my aunt on the other and my grandpa turned his head both ways, like he was going to look at each of them but his eyes never left the foot of the bed. My dad's convinced he was looking at Jesus/God/family, something. He said it was the neatest thing to see and it gave him peace. 

I have never witnessed anyone die but from being an EMT have been there shortly after and I agree about the peace. My husband is a nursing home administrator so he has seen death and the process quite a bit and he agrees that it's nothing to be afraid of.


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## LibertyME

I was raised in the Catholic church and consider myself Catholic...but dont attend mass. I married outside the church...
I pray regularly...
I am a faith-full person (both faithful and full of faith)....
I believe in the power of forgivness.... 
I try to be a kind person (some days I am better at it then others)
I believe in "Do Unto Others"...


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## AquaClaraCanines

I do believe (and have seen studies to support it) that people passing away experience hallucinations, often comforting ones, or dream-like states. I'd like to think that's true! 

It's odd because the vast majority of my friends and family share my viewpoint- so I have never really been around religious people at all except at school as a child, and I didn't know them "personally" the way you know friends and family. So I enjoy discussing this topic in a friendly manner. It doesn't bother or upset me at all.


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## Emmysourgolden

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I do believe (and have seen studies to support it) that people passing away experience hallucinations, often comforting ones, or dream-like states. I'd like to think that's true!
> 
> It's odd because the vast majority of my friends and family share my viewpoint- so I have never really been around religious people at all except at school as a child, and I didn't know them "personally" the way you know friends and family. So I enjoy discussing this topic in a friendly manner. It doesn't bother or upset me at all.


I agree, I think you're beliefs come from what you grew up with. You can't expect billions of people to all believe the same thing. 

What you said here..."I believe in accepting all, believing in the best in people, and treating all living things with the same respect you yourself would like to have. I don't always succeed, but I try" says so much. You dont' have a belief in a particular religion or God, but you live a good life which is what matters to me. 

So many times I think people allow religion to cause hurt and fights and i just dont' think it has to be that way. My grandparents disowned my Mom for marrying a Catholic...my dad. Didn't go to her wedding or talk to her for years. I believe in God and can't imagine he would want that to happen. I think who you are should matter more than what you are.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Totally agreed- the God I studied in school for ten years certainly wouldn't want to see that type of hatred and judgement among his beloved people!

My family, which rocks, sent me to Christian school because they wanted me to learn both and be able to pick whatever path I wanted. How cool is that?


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## JensDreamboy

Babtized Catholic, raised Lutheran, now Christian ( a little of both??)


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## Farley Rocks!

Hehe..I was baptised Catholic, schooled in an Assemblies of God Church, choose Fundamentalist Baptist as a teen, dated an Ex-Jehovahs Witness for four years, tried Christianity again....found to many contradictions and judgements and I find that I feel most spiritual just enjoying nature and the life and energy around me. I am with you ACC except the fate thing. I honestly think that when we die thats it but my Pagan man has put out some interesting past life arguments and if we are all energy...then maybe it does go somewhere when we die. But honestly I am not concerned - lead a good life and you can be happy now and later..if there is a later


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## AquaClaraCanines

I do think our life force/energy goes somewhere, but not into another being or anything like that- and I don't think we're aware of it when it happens


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## Cam's Mom

Non-religious here. Do not believe in god or afterlife, and am permanently disturbed by all the ill will and harm done around the world in the name of religion.


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## Lucky's mom

Christian-Southern Baptist denominaton.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Emmysourgolden said:


> So many times I think people allow religion to cause hurt and fights and i just dont' think it has to be that way. My grandparents disowned my Mom for marrying a Catholic...my dad. Didn't go to her wedding or talk to her for years. I believe in God and can't imagine he would want that to happen. I think who you are should matter more than what you are.


I am a bible believing practicing christian and I agree!! 

I have yet to find a place in the bible that tells us to "hate on people who disagree with our beliefs." As I remember it Jesus called us to "love all people"... Now in my experience "all" means *ALL!*  Not some, not only those who agree....but ALL! 

Jenna, I don't nessecarily agree with your beliefs but I don't let that affect our friendship (we are friends right??  ). 

Ok...off my soapbox...


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## AquaClaraCanines

Not anymore...  (j/k)


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## AquaClaraCanines

Cam's Mom said:


> Non-religious here. Do not believe in god or afterlife, and am permanently disturbed by all the ill will and harm done around the world in the name of religion.


I can't disagree with that statement


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## AquaClaraCanines

And Jeremy, I totally agree. I do believe Jesus was a very wise man. And ALL does mean all- not just "straight" or "white" or "black" or "Christian" but... ALL


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## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Not anymore...  (j/k)


:doh: Crap!! I knew I should have kept my mouth shut!!  

On a side note. I heard this somewhere and unfortunatley I think it's true.... 

"The biggest argument against Christianity is Christians." I don't remember who said it but I've head it several times. So many times the way we act is totally opposite of what we say we believe....


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## Judi

Good point. I didn't realize that the original Poster is from Indonesia.
Perhaps I will visit that country some day.


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## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> And Jeremy, I totally agree. I do believe Jesus was a very wise man. And ALL does mean all- not just "straight" or "white" or "black" or "Christian" but... ALL


Exactly.... Jenna....I love you... 




...did I take that too far?!?!  :lol:


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## Ninde'Gold

There's this one lady who comes into our store every day, we call her the crazy church lady.... She yells at us and calls us the devil, and preaches to us and tells us about repenting our sins LOL

She's nuts...


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## Judi

Jesus was Jewish.


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## AquaClaraCanines

HA not if wifey comes over too

(hehe j/k)

Anyway... yes I have to admit that ironically the people who have MOST judged me in my life have been "Christians" but to me they are not real Christians. They are a shame to those who are.


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## Charlie06

AquaClaraCanines said:


> HA not if wifey comes over too
> 
> (hehe j/k)
> 
> Anyway... yes I have to admit that ironically the people who have MOST judged me in my life have been "Christians" but to me they are not real Christians. They are a shame to those who are.


and some of the people that go to church every week are the ones that are the snobbiest and most judgemental. Remember, I said SOME, not all.....


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## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> HA not if wifey comes over too
> 
> (hehe j/k)
> 
> Anyway... yes I have to admit that ironically the people who have MOST judged me in my life have been "Christians" but to me they are not real Christians. They are a shame to those who are.


I think that it can be compared to the forum.... 

People are VERY passionate about their religion, just as they are about their dogs. Some people can come across very over-bearing about it. "My way is the only way and whoever disagree's is an idiot, and deserves to be flamed!" Which is very similar to what we've seen over the past couple days...  I do think my "way" is the only way, but I'm not going to flame anyone over it. I think that letting people observe how I live my life and treat others who disagree is a bigger testimony to my relationship with God than any "preaching" I do.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Even *I* know what God "thinks" about the Pharisees


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## Judi

My Mother used to say that going to a Place of Worship doesn't make you a good person. You can pray at home!


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## Carsonsdaddy

You know I have to say I'm impressed with us... Religion is usually an even more touchy subject that breeding practices, or dog food. We are discussing it very "adult-like". We are so grown up!!


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## Charlie06

WOW, 57 posts and no arguements.....We're on a roll........

I feel like I should start a fight.....


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## AquaClaraCanines

HA Jeremy- coming from YOU, that is funny  

Hey, none of us care about religion LOL we're too obsessed with our dogs!!!


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## Charlie06

AquaClaraCanines said:


> HA Jeremy- coming from YOU, that is funny
> 
> Hey, none of us care about religion LOL we're too obsessed with our dogs!!!


I like poodles and Benefull ............


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## Ninde'Gold

Charlie06 said:


> WOW, 57 posts and no arguements.....We're on a roll........
> 
> I feel like I should start a fight.....


You want a piece of me :

I believe a wise man once said

"Why do I need religion if I believe in God" - Jadakiss

LOL


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## Carsonsdaddy

Charlie06 said:


> I like poodles and Benefull ............


Where is that "Ban" button....


Johnwa!!!!!!


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## AquaClaraCanines

I'm going to breed Rigby to Keira and sell Gol-pets!


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## Charlie06

and I'm going to get Charlie's marbles put back back so I can breed him.
____________________________________

OK, sorry, I'm done now


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## AquaClaraCanines

well if we breed him to my golden whippet doodles, I'll let you have half the stud fees


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## Farley Rocks!

When anything becomes an obsession it is dangerous. 
According to a Canadian Provincial Court the Bible can be construed as *hate literature* if placed in a particular context. 

Many people use the Bible as a means to justify what they feel is right and give no account to the fact that terms then are different then terms now. A "********" in the Bible is simply a person who lives in Sodom.The Greek words translated "effeminate" and "homosexual" do not mean effeminate or homosexual and the term "homosexual" is of modern origin and was not used until about 100 years ago. There is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is parallel to the word "homosexual." No Bible before the Revised Standard Version in 1946 used "homosexual" in any Bible translation. (6 Verses)

Point is - Love or Hate - its up to the individual to decide what they want to get out of the Bible. There are some very good rules to live by depending......

Matthew 7:1-5 *"Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "*


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## AquaClaraCanines

Agree, Stephanie!

I have been told I am going to hell... well, I think not. I don't even believe hell exists, except the one we might make for ourselves here on earth.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Farley Rocks! said:


> Matthew 7:1-5 *"Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? "*


Ha HA!!! Pastor talked about this on sunday!!!


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## Charlie06

AquaClaraCanines said:


> well if we breed him to my golden whippet doodles, I'll let you have half the stud fees


sounds good to me.......we have to get this in writing  

If you breed a whippet with a golden I guess you'd have a "whipped golden"....It was way funnier in my mind than when I typed it.


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## AquaClaraCanines

NO!!!

I GOT IT! We breed a Whippet to a BRITISH CREAM Golden and then we have WHIPPED CREAM!


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## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> NO!!!
> 
> I GOT IT! We breed a Whippet to a BRITISH CREAM Golden and then we have WHIPPED CREAM!


:doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: 

That is good though....I'll give you that....  :uhoh:


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## Charlie06

You know you just gave someone a great idea........ 

rare Whipped cream puppies $3000


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## AquaClaraCanines

Yeah, me, all I need is for Emma to ship Tilly over so she can have her way with Epic!


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## Farley Rocks!

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Agree, Stephanie!
> 
> I have been told I am going to hell... well, I think not. I don't even believe hell exists, except the one we might make for ourselves here on earth.


Thats a Salt N Peppa Song 

Heaven and hell is on earth

"In this edition of the story, no need to bore me
It can't do nothin' for me, even Denzel
Washington couldn't find any glory
In the overcrowded streets of the city
I know it's ******, but I can do without the pity
(Baby never lived in the ghetto)...or the projects
But I wear my Tim boots and Hi-Tecs, and I wrecks havoc
And if you try to play me I won't have it
Trix are for kids, this kid is not a silly rabbit
(Well) He's standin' on a corner with his system pumpin' loud
Next him goin' off, scream in the crowd
A whole lot of screams, a lot of broken glass
Brothers like to wear their pants fallin' off their ass
Girls today don't wear no bras
Little John Doe got a ho turnin' tricks in the bars
Grandma carries a can of mace
And she'll stick a .45 in your face"

Sorry - I used to be a fan in the younger days:bowl:


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## AquaClaraCanines

Ha, that sounds like where I live


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## monomer

Mostly Atheist but since that seems to pi$$ off a lot of Christans... I will go with the slightly more acceptable title of Agnostic.

I mostly subscribe to the belief that what you see is all there is... the rest is just a 'bedtime' story so you won't fear death as much and to give you hope in times of deep despair. You do 'good works' simply because you are a good person and not because of some promised reward or fear of some horrible fate in some sort of after-life. Religion has been the cause and excuse for many horrible wars and bad things done to other humans... and that trend continues in the world today. I believe good people do NOT come with religious titles of Christan or Jew or Muslim or even Atheist... you are as you 'do' and not what you profess to 'believe' in. Everything is exactly as it appears... is that so hard to face? Apparently so, as that's why we have so much religion in the world.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Monomer, I don't think that's hard to face... did you see my first post in this thread? We agree almost completely. Glad to know I'm not alone!


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## AquaClaraCanines

PS I love your avatar!


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## Lexie's Mom

Christian.


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## Emmysourgolden

monomer said:


> Mostly Atheist but since that seems to pi$$ off a lot of Christans... I will go with the slightly more acceptable title of Agnostic.
> 
> I mostly subscribe to the belief that what you see is all there is... the rest is just a 'bedtime' story so you won't fear death as much and to give you hope in times of deep despair. You do 'good works' simply because you are a good person and not because of some promised reward or fear of some horrible fate in some sort of after-life. Religion has been the cause and excuse for many horrible wars and bad things done to other humans... and that trend continues in the world today. I believe good people do NOT come with religious titles of Christan or Jew or Muslim or even Atheist... you are as you 'do' and not what you profess to 'believe' in. Everything is exactly as it appears... is that so hard to face? Apparently so.


You reminded me of when my dad told me there's no Santa Claus and no Tooth Fairy....sorry Carsonsdaddy if i spoiled it for you. I was just waiting for him to be like "and you know God?...well.." I believe in God but I totally thought it was a scam to get me to behave for awhile there.


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## Farley Rocks!

monomer said:


> I believe good people do NOT come with religious titles of Christan or Jew or Muslim or even Atheist... you are as you 'do' and not what you profess to 'believe' in.


Well said old man. Good show.


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## Charlie06

monomer said:


> Mostly Atheist but since that seems to pi$$ off a lot of Christans... I will go with the slightly more acceptable title of Agnostic.
> 
> I mostly subscribe to the belief that what you see is all there is... the rest is just a 'bedtime' story so you won't fear death as much and to give you hope in times of deep despair. You do 'good works' simply because you are a good person and not because of some promised reward or fear of some horrible fate in some sort of after-life. Religion has been the cause and excuse for many horrible wars and bad things done to other humans... and that trend continues in the world today. I believe good people do NOT come with religious titles of Christan or Jew or Muslim or even Atheist... you are as you 'do' and not what you profess to 'believe' in. Everything is exactly as it appears... is that so hard to face? Apparently so.


Well, I'm a Christian and you don't pi$$ me off.......


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## Augustus McCrae's Mom

I chose Other because I believe in a mixture of things. 

It is interesting down here in the south (Bible Belt) when you first meet someone and they say, "Hi, my name is Joe. What church do you go to?" It's like an extension of hello to ask about someone's religion, which I think is very rude of someone you have just met. I think religion is a private thing, and though I don't mind discussing it if I think it's appropriate (like now), I do think it is very rude to ask someone you just met. (I'm not saying anything bad about this poll; the people who wanted to respond did. It's not the same as your neighbor walking up to you and asking what you believe in). I am tempted to ask them something I believe is a private matter, like their bedroom habits (wink, wink), and see how they respond to something I believe is equally inappropriate to ask someone you've just met. This is not a rare occurence. It's how people get to know people down here. Oh, you go to that church? Then you're that kind of person. 

Anyhow, that's enough of that. I too am surprised that there have been no fights on this thread. Yea for everyone!


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## Carsonsdaddy

Emmysourgolden said:


> You reminded me of when my dad told me there's no Santa Claus and no Tooth Fairy....sorry Carsonsdaddy if i spoiled it for you. I was just waiting for him to be like "and you know God?...well.." I believe in God but I totally thought it was a scam to get me to behave for awhile there.


Crap!! Next you're going to tell me the Easter Bunny isn't real! :doh:


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## Emmysourgolden

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Crap!! Next you're going to tell me the Easter Bunny isn't real! :doh:


No, the Easter Bunny is for real.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Emmysourgolden said:


> No, the Easter Bunny is for real.


Whew!!  I was worried for a minute there....


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## monomer

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Monomer, I don't think that's hard to face... did you see my first post in this thread? We agree almost completely. Glad to know I'm not alone!


Yeah, like a ******* I read the whole thread AFTER I posted... pretty dumb, huh?


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## Charlie06

monomer said:


> Yeah, like a ******* I read the whole thread AFTER I posted... pretty dumb, huh?


Well now you kinda pissed me off........


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## AquaClaraCanines

LOL not dumb  You said some things I didn't have the balls to say LOL


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Whew!!  I was worried for a minute there....


Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure he was killed by Emmy in the backyard!! It was accident, she didn't know!!!
I told her nobody's angry.


----------



## Charlie06

AquaClaraCanines said:


> LOL not dumb  You said some things I didn't have the balls to say LOL


WHAT????? Are you OK?


----------



## monomer

Charlie06 said:


> Well, I'm a Christian and you don't pi$$ me off.......


Okay, so that means if I am wrong and wind-up in hell cause of it, you will come to visit sometimes and bring me a glass of ice tea? ...and biscuits too?


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I think that it can be compared to the forum....
> 
> People are VERY passionate about their religion, just as they are about their dogs. Some people can come across very over-bearing about it. "My way is the only way and whoever disagree's is an idiot, and deserves to be flamed!" Which is very similar to what we've seen over the past couple days...  I do think my "way" is the only way, but I'm not going to flame anyone over it. I think that letting people observe how I live my life and treat others who disagree is a bigger testimony to my relationship with God than any "preaching" I do.


Amen, Brother! There is no need to beat people over the head with our beliefs or the Bible. That only tells people that Christians are judgemental, one-sided blathering nut cases! Its much better to live our lives as Jesus lived His and let people see that in us. No one shoule be flamed for their beliefs. That said ---- I hate you all!: Just kidding, just kidding!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Charlie06

*MONOMER - Okay, so that means if I am wrong and wind-up in hell cause of it, you will come to visit sometimes and bring me a glass of ice tea? ...and biscuits too?*

well, I won't personally bring it, but I know a few people that might be in the area.......


----------



## monomer

AquaClaraCanines said:


> LOL not dumb  You said some things I didn't have the balls to say LOL


They have operations for that now don't they? I know they do for dogs... yeah, fake balls for your neutered male... just do a google, its for real!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Screw water, bring me some "fire water" (vodka) if I am ever in hell!


----------



## monomer

Charlie06 said:


> *Okay, so that means if I am wrong and wind-up in hell cause of it, you will come to visit sometimes and bring me a glass of ice tea? ...and biscuits too?*
> 
> well, I won't personally bring it, but I know a few people that might be in the area.......


Yeah, maybe you can get Elvis to do it... I'd like to met The King... the 'bad boy' king of rock-n-roll... uhuh.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Or one of our Presidents


----------



## Charlie06

monomer said:


> Yeah, maybe you can get Elvis to do it... I'd like to met The King... the 'bad boy' king of rock-n-roll... uhuh.


uh oh...did you just mess with Elvis? lol

Well, I would love to stay and chat but I must pick up daughter from school. Hopefully she'll pass her drivers test by the time she's 20. Maybe 4th time will be a charm........


----------



## monomer

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Screw water, bring me some "fire water" (vodka) if I am ever in hell!


Alcohol in hell? You crazy? ...Are you trying to start a fire or something? The flames are sure to be high enough without the added fuel...


----------



## monomer

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Or one of our Presidents


Bush ain't dead yet...


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Do you think anyone farts in hell?


----------



## Augustus McCrae's Mom

It ain't the sulfur that smells down there


----------



## monomer

Well then it must be mixed with the smell of singed butt hair...

Its funny but I don't mind my own farts... but *I'll be ******* if I have to spend an eternity smelling someone else's.... ARRRRGH!!!!!
(Just a little bit of Hades humor there...)


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Oh no, what if they have DOG farts in hell? LOL (No, no dogs in hell...)


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Catholic, told I think more like a Protestant, being asked all the time to join a Christian group. I'm also the GodMother of a little girl whose mother is Catholic and her Dad is Christian. Can you believe that?


----------



## Charlie06

We went from religion back to dogs and now farts, what's left?


----------



## rosemary

AquaClaraCanines said:


> HA not if wifey comes over too
> 
> (hehe j/k)
> 
> Anyway... yes I have to admit that ironically the people who have MOST judged me in my life have been "Christians" but to me they are not real Christians. They are a shame to those who are.


well said the so called christains i i have meet have been the most judgemental people to ever cross my path


----------



## Luvinmygoldens

Emmysourgolden said:


> My dad said when his dad, my grandpa, died. Right before he died his eyes got huge and fixated at the end of the bed. He was standing on one side and my aunt on the other and my grandpa turned his head both ways, like he was going to look at each of them but his eyes never left the foot of the bed. My dad's convinced he was looking at Jesus/God/family, something.


 
Something similiar happened to me. I (as well as many other family members) was there all night the night my grandpa died. In his last few hours he would sit up and reach out in front of him and try to grasp something. It was like he saw something or someone and was trying to hold it. It was amazing and we were sure he was seeing other family members who had already passed waiting for him. It was so sad to see him leaving us, but very peaceful.


----------



## Judi

*Boy, this is a popular thread!*

I think we should add Agnostic and Atheist to the list.


----------



## Faith's mommy

what's the definition of an Agnostic? An Atheist that's afraid of God 

as for me, i don't believe in god, mother earth, a higher power, none of that. i think we become worm food when we die. although, i really wish Karma was true.


----------



## Judi

An Atheist is NOT necessarily afraid of a God. A Atheist doesn't believe in a God.

An Agnostic questions the existence of a God.


----------



## RickGibbs

Judi said:


> I am surprised that you didn't think of it in the first place.


It was a kid from Indonesia who created the poll.....I'd think you'd understand that they didn't think of EVERY possibility...


----------



## Faith's mommy

i never said that an Atheist is afraid of God.

and, Judi, you need to learn what the emoticons are for. sometimes, people are joking, and they use symbols  in order for people to know this. it's quite common online and i notice that you usually take jokes and funny comments way too seriously.


----------



## RickGibbs

Judi said:


> I think we should add Agnostic and Atheist to the list.


Consider it done...


----------



## RickGibbs

Faith's mommy said:


> and i notice that you usually take jokes and funny comments way too seriously.


Huh? No way...

 (<-------BIG SMILE)


----------



## Pointgold

I am a Christian, raised and confirmed as a Methodist, but for many years have attended the Episcopal Church. I'm not sure that any particular religion really means as much as an individual's own personal relationship with his or her God.


----------



## Faith's mommy

RickGibbs said:


> Consider it done...


oh sure, after i already voted "other"


----------



## RickGibbs

Christian

Raised Baptist, but our church is now non-denominational...


----------



## Jazzys Mom

rosemary said:


> well said the so called christains i i have meet have been the most judgemental people to ever cross my path


That is really sad. That's what I mean about the name that Christians have. So many of us Christians beat people over the head with "religion" and judge people who have a different belief system. So sad. Religion really means nothing. Its your relationship with Christ that means something. You can have all the so called religion in the world but if your relationship with Christ is lacking then religion won't save you

Jazzys Mom


----------



## RickGibbs

Jazzys Mom said:


> That is really sad. That's what I mean about the name that Christians have. So many of us Christians beat people over the head with "religion" and judge people who have a different belief system. So sad. Religion really means nothing. Its your relationship with Christ that means something. You can have all the so called religion in the world but if your relationship with Christ is lacking then religion won't save you
> 
> Jazzys Mom


Nicely said..... For years, my wife didn't want to go to church with me because she didn't want to be that kind of person...


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Jazzys Mom said:


> That is really sad. That's what I mean about the name that Christians have. So many of us Christians beat people over the head with "religion" and judge people who have a different belief system. So sad. Religion really means nothing. Its your relationship with Christ that means something. You can have all the so called religion in the world but if your relationship with Christ is lacking then religion won't save you
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I wish I had written that... well said!


----------



## rosemary

Jazzys Mom said:


> That is really sad. That's what I mean about the name that Christians have. So many of us Christians beat people over the head with "religion" and judge people who have a different belief system. So sad. Religion really means nothing. Its your relationship with Christ that means something. You can have all the so called religion in the world but if your relationship with Christ is lacking then religion won't save you
> 
> Jazzys Mom


well no offence here but i will stick to the unsaved variety then cos believe me in all my 40 years it sure aint done me any favours


----------



## Emmysourgolden

rosemary said:


> well no offence here but i will stick to the unsaved variety then cos believe me in all my 40 years it sure aint done me any favours


No, I think she's saying that it doesn't matter what religion you are or even if you belong to a religion it's your relationship with Christ or how you live your life that matters. 

Maybe I'm not following you correctly...if that's the case disregard me!!


----------



## lovealways_jami

Im sorry for whom this post makes freak out like I did...but... the other day, I was on my way home from Dairy Queen... and I started thinking, ya know, this is it...anything I want to do I HAVE to do in the next 50 years, because nothing is promised. What happens if there is nothing at the end of the tunnel? And this is it, the only chance you get to make a difference? I cried for maybe 2 hours...STRAIGHT! I called my mom and told her I thought I needed to go to the Dr. and get some medication because I was obviously ill! I just couldnt imagine not living..its such a helpless feeling! Geesh, Im still freaking out! Thats when I decided this... 
IF THERE IS NO ONE AT THE END, ITLL MAKE ME FEEL BETTER NOW TO BELIEVE THERE IS. BECAUSE I CANNOT KEEP LIVING THIS WAY! AND IF THERE IS, HEY, I DIDNT SPEND ALL THAT DARN TIME CRYING OVER IT. SOME PEOPLE MISS HOW PRECIOUS LIFE IS! CHURCH IS A SECURITY FOR ME... IT MAKES ME FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE. ITS JUST A CONSTANT REMINDER FOR ME.
Some people dont need the support, I for one, do!
Now Im crying again, LOL...Did I mention Im scared of dying... like... BAD


----------



## Jazzys Mom

RickGibbs said:


> Nicely said..... For years, my wife didn't want to go to church with me because she didn't want to be that kind of person...


I have a very dear friend who IS that kind of person. She just doesn't (or didn't) realize it until she offended me and many others to the point no one wanted anything to do with her. Actually called me one time to make sure I was still in a relationship with Christ because I had stopped going to a bible study, only because my job interfered with it. If I hadn't already been grounded in my faith she would have sent me running the other way!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Emmysourgolden said:


> No, I think she's saying that it doesn't matter what religion you are or even if you belong to a religion it's your relationship with Christ or how you live your life that matters.
> 
> Maybe I'm not following you correctly...if that's the case disregard me!!


 
Right - its relationship ---- not religion. You can't buy your way into Heaven

Jazzys Mom


----------



## lovealways_jami

Jazzys Mom said:


> Right - its relationship ---- not religion. You can't buy your way into Heaven
> 
> Jazzys Mom


But church helps spread the story (at least my chuch does)... I dont press anyone to go if they do not feel like it... but I will not steer anyone from it either. I wouldnt know the story (true or false) if I hadnt gone to church. Its so much more to me than about religion, its about faith...like a support group.
Now, I dont know whats wrong or right, but it sure makes me sleep better  I dont press any one religion on anyone ... but to not believe WAS KILLING ME! Some people might not be as affected as I was. Heck, Im only 22 and ready to go to therapy because Im scared of dying... so what the heck do I know!


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I just have a hard time when someone I know thinks my relationship with Jesus could be better if I followed in their footsteps. This person is wonderful, but I sometimes get tired of hearing that there is so much more and I already know that and have a strong belief. I sometimes can't figure out why it took this person so long to find this relationship when I found it as a child. I also find prayer to be a very private matter and this is one reason I do not join in.


----------



## lovealways_jami

Geesh, reading back on my posts I sound a little crazy...Im not y'all! LOL .. I had a bad day that day. Please dont think I was pushing anything on anyone, I was just sharing a story  Have a nice day


----------



## Jazzys Mom

lovealways_jami said:


> But church helps spread the story (at least my chuch does)... I dont press anyone to go if they do not feel like it... but I will not steer anyone from it either. I wouldnt know the story (true or false) if I hadnt gone to church. Its so much more to me than about religion, its about faith...like a support group.
> Now, I dont know whats wrong or right, but it sure makes me sleep better  I dont press any one religion on anyone ... but to not believe WAS KILLING ME! Some people might not be as affected as I was. Heck, Im only 22 and ready to go to therapy because Im scared of dying... so what the heck do I know!


Oh Jami, you are sooooooo right! Church --- to me anyway is definitely like a huge support group for me that spreads the love of Jesus without judging you if you happen to believe something different. Stay around my church long enough and you couldn't help but believe! Death is nothing to be afraid of Jami. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for you then at death you will be with Jesus. I can't think of anywhere I'd rather be!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

Jazzys Mom said:


> Oh Jami, you are sooooooo right! Church --- to me anyway is definitely like a huge support group for me that spreads the love of Jesus without judging you if you happen to believe something different. Stay around my church long enough and you couldn't help but believe! Death is nothing to be afraid of Jami. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for you then at death you will be with Jesus. I can't think of anywhere I'd rather be!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


AMEN!!!


----------



## Luvinmygoldens

I was actually baptised Mormon when I was young. My parents weren't active in the church but I had some family that was and many good friends that were (I am from Utah!). I haven't been active for ages and ages, but I am Christian and I do have my own personal religious beliefs. However, to me they are personal and I mostly just keep them to myself and try to be a good person and live my life in a good way. I don't ever judge anyone on what they choose to believe or not believe in, or what religion they might choose. I don't even think about it actually. Live and let live is a quote that I totally agree with.


----------



## Lisa

I'm not into organized religion at all, yet I am highly spiritual. I don't like how some religions say that only "their way" is the "right" way. I believe in a more universal spirituality - the universal life-force which runs through us all - we are all one. I think that man created religions / doctrine to try to explain the unknown and control the masses with rules. 

Lisa W


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Born and raised an Episcopalian and still find my church, with all it's shortcomings, my anchor. My faith is the cornerstone for who I am. My children attended an Episcopal elementary school and a Catholic high school. We stressed to them the importance of a relationship with Christ as the center point of their faith and also, a respect for ALL religions. THere are a whole series of books by Joseph Girzone ( a retired Catholic priest) that are easy reads and parables for how Jesus would see the modern world.......... the Joshua series. Real uppers and a shot in the arm for all people....I encourage anyone to read, esp good at this time of year.


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Lisa said:


> I'm not into organized religion at all, yet I am highly spiritual. I don't like how some religions say that only "their way" is the "right" way. I believe in a more universal spirituality - the universal life-force which runs through us all - we are all one. I think that man created religions / doctrine to try to explain the unknown and control the masses with rules.
> 
> Lisa W


 
Isnt there some quote...God made man...man made religion 
Or something like that.:bowl:


----------



## 3 goldens

Methodist my entire life. Now, we all hear of the church as God's house? Well, strange as it may seem, i don't think of it as God's House. I think of the WORLD that God created as God's house. The church building is just a building we built to worship Him in. Make sense? I can sit on the rock jetty and watch the gulls and pelicans fly arouund, watch the herons, egrets and other birds running around on the jetty, watch dolphins jump, listen to the waves, see little crabs on the rocks, look at the blue sky and clouds, watch a sunset and I feel God is as much or maybe more so, there than in the church building i go to every Sunday because these are all things HE created whereas we built the building.

When I was a child we would have a brush arbor Revival every wummer and it would be outdoors and i use to think church services should always be held outdoors where you could see all the beauty He created

I also believe race, relegion, life style should not even enter the picture when it comes to friendship, loyality, caring, etc. Soemtiems it is hard to not to judge or dislike folks (like Vick, Ted Bundy, etc) because of the horror and terrible things they did to humans or animals and i freely admit i will judge them and not like them. I h ave friends of all regelgions, all colors, gay friends and it makes no difference to me because they are the type people how m ake the world a place livable.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Hey man, how can we atheists change our vote, if we already voted other? LOL


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Hey man, how can we atheists change our vote, if we already voted other? LOL


You can go into edit poll and change it Jenna.... Super Powers!!


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

I think we should add Jedi Knight to the list.... :


----------



## RickGibbs

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I think we should add Jedi Knight to the list.... :


I wanted to vote for Guitar Hero....but it wasn't available either.

I'm surprised it wasn't thought of in the first place......


----------



## Jemma's Mum

I'm from the biggest religion in the world! The lapsed Catholic!

cheers


----------



## rosemary

if you all new the full story you would understand the reasons why i think how and why i do but i wont do that on an open forum because i caould kiss goodbyee to what sanity i do have left


----------



## Jackson'sMom

Raised Methodist, converted to Catholicism, never go to church and haven't for years (sometimes at Easter and Christmas). My daughter is Russian Orthodox.


----------



## Lucky's mom

monomer said:


> Mostly Atheist but since that seems to pi$$ off a lot of Christans... I will go with the slightly more acceptable title of Agnostic.
> 
> I mostly subscribe to the belief that what you see is all there is... the rest is just a 'bedtime' story so you won't fear death as much and to give you hope in times of deep despair. You do 'good works' simply because you are a good person and not because of some promised reward or fear of some horrible fate in some sort of after-life. Religion has been the cause and excuse for many horrible wars and bad things done to other humans... and that trend continues in the world today. I believe good people do NOT come with religious titles of Christan or Jew or Muslim or even Atheist... you are as you 'do' and not what you profess to 'believe' in. Everything is exactly as it appears... is that so hard to face? Apparently so, as that's why we have so much religion in the world.


I have to chuckle monomer......is it really just *mentioning* that you are an atheist that makes a Christian mad...

My views infuriate many atheists .....goodness knows I have enough of them in my family....definately a culture clash.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

rosemary said:


> if you all new the full story you would understand the reasons why i think how and why i do but i wont do that on an open forum because i caould kiss goodbyee to what sanity i do have left


Rose you don't have to explain it to me. I truly understand, as you know.


----------



## monomer

Lucky's mom said:


> I have to chuckle monomer......is it really just *mentioning* that you are an atheist that makes a Christian mad...
> 
> My views infuriate many atheists .....goodness knows I have enough of them in my family....definately a culture clash.


Okay, you got me... its when they come to the door trying to 'save' me and I invite them in for some entertainment value and shortly after our 'discussion' begins THAT'S when they usually get mad at me. I know, I know... I'm a bad, bad boy and I'm going to hell for it... but really, these Christians that come to my door are just toooo easy.

BTW, I was raised Catholic and spent 5-years in Catholic schools... the problem is I'm just too much the realist and my thinking is sooo based in logic that during my late teens and early twenties I found the whole God concept mentally crippling for me but I do understand how it can be uplifting and very necessary for others to provide them with morale guidelines, drawing strength during trying times and to remain grounded and bound to a group. Both my wife and I are the only 'non-believers' we know... however, we don't advertise it and people never ask, so it is always just assumed we are 'good Christians' simply because we are good people. Fine with me.

I think there should be a "God-less heathen" category...

"Even if God does not exist, there would still be a need for man to create Him."
So then the real question becomes "Who created whom?"


----------



## Cam's Mom

> No, I think she's saying that it doesn't matter what religion you are or even if you belong to a religion it's your relationship with Christ or how you live your life that matters.


Ironically, to have a relationship with _Christ (or Jesus)_ you are defining your religious belief...so it does matter to you.

How you live your life matters, but you do not need religion, nor a relationship with Christ, Mohammed, Buddah..to name a few, in order to live a good life. You can choose how to live without a specific creed to refer to. You can look at all the religious works as philosophy, and use the best from all. Just a different point of view.

Being atheist, for me at least, makes me think through what I believe is right or wrong, and have the conviction to defend my beliefs, without the benefit of a "book" ready written. It's actually a tougher choice in the US where freedom of speech and belief is thought to reign, than in other western countries. Religion often seems to be driven by the need to conform and belong, rather than belief.


----------



## Cam's Mom

> BTW, I was raised Catholic and spent 5-years in Catholic schools...


Oh boy, you got off lightly! 9 years of nuns and priests for this sinner


----------



## Cam's Mom

> I wanted to vote for Guitar Hero....but it wasn't available either.


My oldest daughter always quotes Alice in Wonderland in religious debates...


----------



## lovealways_jami

Cam's Mom said:


> Oh boy, you got off lightly! 9 years of nuns and priests for this sinner


HAHA... 
You're too funny...


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Cam's Mom said:


> Ironically, to have a relationship with _Christ (or Jesus)_ you are *defining your religious belief*...so it does matter to you.
> 
> How you live your life matters, but you do not need religion, nor a relationship with Christ, Mohammed, Buddah..to name a few, in order to live a good life. You can choose how to live without a specific creed to refer to. You can look at all the religious works as philosophy, and use the best from all. Just a different point of view.
> 
> Being atheist, for me at least, makes me think through what I believe is right or wrong, and have the conviction to defend my beliefs, without the benefit of a "book" ready written. It's actually a tougher choice in the US where freedom of speech and belief is thought to reign, than in other western countries. Religion often seems to be driven by the need to conform and belong, rather than belief.


Maybe I didn't come across just right here. In saying "religion" I specifically mean denominations - there is no difference to Christ what denomination we are affilated with as long as we believe He is the risen son of God.

Boy, I'm sure proud of all of us! We are having this debate ----* ON* *RELIGION* of all things and we are all so civil! No fights! Yea us!:dblthumb2

Jazzys Mom


----------



## monomer

It's because thus far no one has tried to sell anybody any thing... Professing one's belief is never the problem, its condemning others for not believing as you do that always starts the fight...


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Yeah, your right, but we haven't had anyone do that either! Aren't we good?

Jazzys Mom


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

I say I worship dogs and I go to service every weekend at the local shows


----------



## Faith's mommy

Cam's Mom said:


> Oh boy, you got off lightly! 9 years of nuns and priests for this sinner


wait a minute! is this a contest? i might be able to win - 13 years here. kindergarden through high school for me... my brothers got to go to non-Catholic high schools if they wanted to, but not me! :yuck:


----------



## Lucky's mom

Jazzys Mom said:


> Boy, I'm sure proud of all of us! We are having this debate ----* ON* *RELIGION* of all things and we are all so civil! No fights! Yea us!:dblthumb2
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I admit...my tongue is bleeding here. Just trying to be careful.....It is SO EASY to put someone down by saying something the wrong way.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Faith's Mommy, I got 13 years too... ******!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

(and my parents are atheists LOL but they, quite cooly, wanted me to be able to choose)


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

I'll never truly understand how anyone can believe that stuff, but I cannot and will not judge them unless they judge me- or I will try my best. It's only fair to try to be open minded. The only ones that enrage me are the ones who spend more time telling me I am evil than considering their own hate filled lives.


----------



## Faith's mommy

my parents are still devout Catholics, none of us kids are still religious.


----------



## monomer

Faith's mommy said:


> wait a minute! is this a contest? i might be able to win - 13 years here. kindergarden through high school for me... my brothers got to go to non-Catholic high schools if they wanted to, but not me! :yuck:


That's why you are such a good girl today... be thankful. (remember Billy Joel's song Only the Good Die Young?)

I don't regret my years in Catholic school at all... I actually learned things there that have helped me throughout my life but I will admit public schools was where the 'real' fun was at... girls, yummmm.

BTW, everyone in my family is a devout Catholic... "baa, baa, baa" (...that's me bleating... as in 'black sheep')


----------



## Jazz's Mom

I'm Jewish, my husband is Catholic. I work with a woman who just doesn't get it. Every year we have the same conversation, with her saying things like she doesn't understand how I can not celebrate Christmas. And don't my kids miss out by not celebrating Christmas (no, they don't).

The other day we were talking about Thankgiving and she actually asked me, "do you celebrate Thanksgiving?" URG!


----------



## tcww

What's the difference between a Catholic and a Christian??????


----------



## Kirby'sMom

RickGibbs said:


> Christian
> 
> Raised Baptist, but our church is now non-denominational...


Ours too! It's the same church but without the Baptist name and, I guess, hang ups!!


----------



## Kirby'sMom

tcww said:


> What's the difference between a Catholic and a Christian??????


I was wondering, too


----------



## Kirby'sMom

Lucky's mom said:


> I admit...my tongue is bleeding here. Just trying to be careful.....It is SO EASY to put someone down by saying something the wrong way.


Yup, me too!


----------



## Emmysourgolden

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Faith's Mommy, I got 13 years too... ******!


I got you both beat! 12 years of Catholic school and 3 of Catholic college. I may as well be a nun. You can call me sister.

lol...Actually i have my boys in Catholic school now and love it. Their principal and music teacher are both nuns that still wear the black habits and the works... They are fun good ladies...Not what you would expect. Super friendly and love the kids. Growing up I had a couple nuns that scared the be-Jesus out of me!


----------



## Lucky's mom

tcww said:


> What's the difference between a Catholic and a Christian??????


Well, I know Catholics are Christian. But that's about as much as I know.


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Oh yes, Jenna! You are sooooooo evil!:satan::satan::satan:

:::

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Lucky's mom said:


> Well, I know Catholics are Christian. But that's about as much as I know.


I think Catholicism is my religion and being Catholic I am also Christian. Christianity is not a specific religion like, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Jewish, Presbyterian..etc. Being a Christian means you believe in Jesus as Christ. So I think many different religions fall under being Christian. Someone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Emmysourgolden said:


> I think Catholicism is my religion and being Catholic I am also Christian. Christianity is not a specific religion like, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Jewish, Presbyterian..etc. Being a Christian means you believe in Jesus as Christ. So I think many different religions fall under being Christian. Someone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong.


Christianity has many denominations, catholicism one of them. I honestly would like to know what makes Catholics different from my denomination.


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Usually the main difference taht we Catholics have is that we believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus during mass not a symbol. Like during the last supper. Plus we Catholics have Saints and many rules!! LOL. It's true. I like it though...works for me.
What religion are you again?


----------



## bizzy

I was raised a seventh day adventist. Will likely be marrying a catholic. I don't so much believe in *A* denomination anymore as the general christian message. We are currently looking to join a luthern church as its a good mix of what we are both used to.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Emmysourgolden said:


> Usually the main difference taht we Catholics have is that we believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus during mass not a symbol. Like during the last supper. Plus we Catholics have Saints and many rules!! LOL. It's true. I like it though...works for me.
> What religion are you again?


Southern Baptist. We believe in the literal truth of the Bible. I do have a great amount of respect for Catholism. There is a huge amount of good works done in the world from Catholics and their organizations.


----------



## Judi

*To Rick,*



RickGibbs said:


> It was a kid from Indonesia who created the poll.....I'd think you'd understand that they didn't think of EVERY possibility...


I didn't realize that it was a "kid from Indonesia" when I wrote that.


----------



## Judi

Faith's mommy said:


> what's the definition of an Agnostic? An Atheist that's afraid of God
> 
> as for me, i don't believe in god, mother earth, a higher power, none of that. i think we become worm food when we die. although, i really wish Karma was true.


Read the above. I see: " What's the definition of an Agnostic? An Atheist that's afraid of God with a smile. Is that supposed to be a joke?
As far as being serious, that is often what I am.


----------



## Judi

*To Rick,*



RickGibbs said:


> Consider it done...


Good job!

Hopefully, this thread is somewhat educational.


----------



## Judi

lovealways_jami said:


> Im sorry for whom this post makes freak out like I did...but... the other day, I was on my way home from Dairy Queen... and I started thinking, ya know, this is it...anything I want to do I HAVE to do in the next 50 years, because nothing is promised. What happens if there is nothing at the end of the tunnel? And this is it, the only chance you get to make a difference? I cried for maybe 2 hours...STRAIGHT! I called my mom and told her I thought I needed to go to the Dr. and get some medication because I was obviously ill! I just couldnt imagine not living..its such a helpless feeling! Geesh, Im still freaking out! Thats when I decided this...
> IF THERE IS NO ONE AT THE END, ITLL MAKE ME FEEL BETTER NOW TO BELIEVE THERE IS. BECAUSE I CANNOT KEEP LIVING THIS WAY! AND IF THERE IS, HEY, I DIDNT SPEND ALL THAT DARN TIME CRYING OVER IT. SOME PEOPLE MISS HOW PRECIOUS LIFE IS! CHURCH IS A SECURITY FOR ME... IT MAKES ME FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE. ITS JUST A CONSTANT REMINDER FOR ME.
> Some people dont need the support, I for one, do!
> Now Im crying again, LOL...Did I mention Im scared of dying... like... BAD


If Church is good for you than go. Please take care of yourself.


----------



## DanielleH

no religion here..


----------



## monomer

Emmysourgolden said:


> I think Catholicism is my religion and being Catholic I am also Christian. Christianity is not a specific religion like, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Jewish, Presbyterian..etc. Being a Christian means you believe in Jesus as Christ. So I think many different religions fall under being Christian. Someone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong.





Emmysourgolden said:


> Usually the main difference taht we Catholics have is that we believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus during mass not a symbol. Like during the last supper. Plus we Catholics have Saints and many rules!! LOL. It's true...


You really were paying attention in school... I think you're right on all accounts there. 


Emmysourgolden said:


> I got you both beat! 12 years of Catholic school and 3 of Catholic college. I may as well be a nun. You can call me sister...


Good one sis. However I was an alter boy for a year... imagine that! Does that mean I win?


----------



## BeauShel

Raised Baptist, then started going to methodist when i was older. Married a Catholic in a non catholic ceremony. So according to the catholic church we are married in sin. They told me that when I was considering converting. So we both dont go there now.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

I was an alter girl once...LOL. I got to ring these little bells and such :

And Father Tad always gave me lollipops after church... haha.

Used to do choir too...

Now... nothing. I've lost all innocence and beliefs.


----------



## monomer

GoldenLover84 said:


> I was an alter girl once...LOL...


I call *shenanigans*! There is no such thing as an alter girl... if there was, you can bet I would have been an alter boy for a lot longer... I was like 12 at the time. Us alter boys had to wear long flowing black robes (ankle length), do alter girls wear shorter robes? black skirts maybe? Okay, so I haven't been to mass in like a really long time.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

monomer said:


> I call *shenanigans*! There is no such thing as an alter girl... if there was, you can bet I would have been an alter boy for a lot longer... I was like 12 at the time. Us alter boys had to wear long flowing black robes (ankle length), do alter girls wear shorter robes? black skirts maybe?


No, wore the same robe, just wore my normal clothes underneath. I only did it for like a year, so yeah you probably have done it longer than me LOL.

I dont remember how old I was...10 or 11 maybe?

Must've been because I stopped going to church after my dad died, and I was 13 then.


----------



## monomer

Okay, so you ready for the big shock? I was an alter boy 45 years ago!!! I'm that old. Haven't been to mass in like 36 years maybe...


----------



## Cam's Mom

> Growing up I had a couple nuns that scared the be-Jesus


They still have that effect on me!! I 've been known to cross the street if they're headed my way. Boy they were tyrants in black...not a bit like Whoopi Goldberg. And I still expect any male with an Irish accent to be wearing a "dog collar"

Monomer, I too benefited a great deal from my catholic education...But I opted out for high school. My male cousins were all alter boys, as was my brother, and now my nephews, despite the fact their Mum is Indian and Hindu. 

I have one cousin who's a priest. Same one who drank the communion wine before mass. Also had an aunt who was a catholic school headmistress, and several cousins who still teach in catholic schools..very scary:uhoh: So, now you know why we left the UK

We sent our youngest son to a catholic school in France. Class size and education were better.


----------



## monomer

Did you need to be de-programmed? Wow, you make it sound like a cult swallowed your family up.

I think all private schools have the luxury of focusing on education while public schools are more like babysitters just waiting for the kids to turn 18. I was taught by the Maryknoll sisters in grades 6-8... they were rather nice to us (mostly). Then came the *I*rish *C*hristian *B*rothers (the *ICB* aka *I*nternational *C*hild *B*eaters)- this was an all-boys high school so anything goes... they were like the Catholic mafia... I use to get the strap quite regularly until they finally kicked me out after my sophmore year. I guess I was more trouble than they could take... then I finished up high school at a public school with lots and lots of girls! not to mention I cut class a lot.


----------



## Cam's Mom

Irish catholics...defintely a cult!


----------



## Kirby'sMom

Cam's Mom said:


> Irish catholics...defintely a cult!


I'm Irish, but a Baptist....is that 1/2 a cult???


----------



## ILoveAMonster

lovealways_jami said:


> Im sorry for whom this post makes freak out like I did...but... the other day, I was on my way home from Dairy Queen... and I started thinking, ya know, this is it...anything I want to do I HAVE to do in the next 50 years, because nothing is promised. What happens if there is nothing at the end of the tunnel? And this is it, the only chance you get to make a difference? I cried for maybe 2 hours...STRAIGHT! I called my mom and told her I thought I needed to go to the Dr. and get some medication because I was obviously ill! I just couldnt imagine not living..its such a helpless feeling! Geesh, Im still freaking out! Thats when I decided this...
> IF THERE IS NO ONE AT THE END, ITLL MAKE ME FEEL BETTER NOW TO BELIEVE THERE IS. BECAUSE I CANNOT KEEP LIVING THIS WAY! AND IF THERE IS, HEY, I DIDNT SPEND ALL THAT DARN TIME CRYING OVER IT. SOME PEOPLE MISS HOW PRECIOUS LIFE IS! CHURCH IS A SECURITY FOR ME... IT MAKES ME FEEL LIKE THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE. ITS JUST A CONSTANT REMINDER FOR ME.
> Some people dont need the support, I for one, do!
> Now Im crying again, LOL...Did I mention Im scared of dying... like... BAD


I'm only halfway done through reading the thread...but just wanted to say that I'm right there with you...I have had some major breakdowns like that lately.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

I think life is precious, but oblivion doesn't scare me. After all, I won't be sitting there thinking about how all I have now is oblivion.


----------



## Me&Ruby

I don't have the time to start reading all the responses, but peeps here have been v. polite with each other in terms of differences. The poll results didn't surprise me, and I ticked agnostic as I would be lying if I said I believe IN God, but I'd like to think that there's 'something' out there. I had Christian influence when young (family + school), but like many I was just 'going along' - if left to exploring how I really felt, it was just never there. OH was the same, but I think he'd claim himself as atheist full-stop; he's said blatantly he "just doesn't believe".


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

We'd have a fair few more atheists if the poll had included those options at first. I still can't figure out how to change my vote even though I'm a mod! (I picked other before)


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Never mind I did it! LOL I changed the results of other down one and atheist up one for myself LOL


----------



## tcww

*Christian*



Lucky's mom said:


> Well, I know Catholics are Christian. But that's about as much as I know.


Christian is not a religion, it's a description of a group of faiths that are based on Jesus Christ's teachings. Could be Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.

Now, if we had been asked if we were Catholic or Protestant, the poll would make more sense.


----------



## ShadowsParents

This is definitely an interesting topic.

Let’s see, I was baptized and confirmed Lutheran; married in a Methodist church. Do I believe in God and the power of Christianity? Absolutely! Do I regularly attend church? No way. Why? Because I believe a lot of ‘bad’ people hide behind the cover of church and I do not need a building in which to believe and pray. (I had an assistant pastor once that would walk around with shorts, no undies, and show us R rated horror movies and give us booze, when we were early teens…)

I am generally very quiet about my beliefs because they are very personal to me. What I stand for is treating everyone as well as I can – to try to be good to all, but yes, that is sometimes hard. I LOVE hearing about other people’s religious beliefs because the history and culture and rituals that others practice fascinates me. I truly believe that I take the good from all I hear and incorporate it into who I am. I do not find anyone that doesn’t believe the same as me as wrong or I would be a hypocrite. 

The great thing about the way the world is changing is that we are free to have our own beliefs. The only thing that concerns me is when politics and religion cross paths. Yes, I know much of this country law was based on the bible, but let’s face it, the country has changed, people have changed, and the way we write our laws needs to change. Ex: Let’s not ban same-sex marriage because “someone’s” religion stipulates it’s not appropriate.

Ok, off my soapbox. It’s nice to be able to discuss this topic in a non-confrontational, educational way. J


----------



## kezia14

OMG !!!!! 
This is for the first time i made a poll all of you interested with it !!! 
This is my first time i got 85 voters !!!:
Thanks for all of your paticipation guys !!!!
By the way, who's fixing my poll ??? Thanks....

I cant believe i made a great job with this poll !!!:


----------



## lovealways_jami

I must say, I am soooo proud of everyone for handling this topic so well!! Who woulda thunk it?? Hooch would be sooo darn proud of us!!


----------



## kezia14

lovealways_jami said:


> I must say, I am soooo proud of everyone for handling this topic so well!! Who woulda thunk it?? Hooch would be sooo darn proud of us!!


 
Why Hooch ???


----------



## LifeOfRiley

lovealways_jami said:


> I must say, I am soooo proud of everyone for handling this topic so well!! Who woulda thunk it?? Hooch would be sooo darn proud of us!!


I'm amazed. Honestly. I've never seen such a diverse group of people have such a lengthy discussion about religion without at least a _couple_ arguments breaking out, or someone trying to convert, "save", or just plain change everyone else's mind. When I saw this thread, my first thought was "Uh oh, here we go..." 

Religion is one subject I'm very interested in, but I usually avoid discussions about it because they always seem to end with hard feelings. I'm really impressed with how _non_-judgmental everyone here seems to be. You were all right - this is a good group of people!


----------



## kezia14

Hey all !!!
I hope with this thread we can be *friendly one and another religion*...
Hope you can *respect other religion*, coz they are still the same like all of us as a HUMAN...
***So please dont make any misunderstanding with this thread or poll....***

_Thanks !_


----------



## monomer

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Never mind I did it! LOL I changed the results of other down one and atheist up one for myself LOL


Okay then could you use your powers to do the same for my vote? I voted "Other" when there was no "Atheist" choice.


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Emmysourgolden said:


> I think Catholicism is my religion and being Catholic I am also Christian. Christianity is not a specific religion like, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Jewish, Presbyterian..etc. Being a Christian means you believe in Jesus as Christ. So I think many different religions fall under being Christian. Someone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes, Christianity fall under many different denominations but a CHRISTIAN is a person that has outwardly prayed to receive Jesus Christ as their true Lord and Savior. Believes that Jesus died on the cross to cover our sins so we can reside with Him in Heaven. The Bible is God's handbook for the way we live our lives and it is the devine and inspired word of God

Jazzys Mom


----------



## tcww

*Bible*



Jazzys Mom said:


> Yes, Christianity fall under many different denominations but a CHRISTIAN is a person that has outwardly prayed to receive Jesus Christ as their true Lord and Savior. Believes that Jesus died on the cross to cover our sins so we can reside with Him in Heaven. The Bible is God's handbook for the way we live our lives and it is the devine and inspired word of God
> 
> Jazzys Mom



Which translation of the Bible?


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Sure Old Guy, I'll change it for you, too, an if anyone else wants to PM to change them to Jewish, Agnostic, or Atheist (the choices not there at first) I can do so.


BTW I totally agree with the person who said that we should not have LAWS in our COUNTRY that are based on someone's religious beliefs.


----------



## Faith's mommy

you can change mine to Atheist if you like.

and, i disagree - i think if the laws in this country were based on some of the 10 commandments we'd be doing ok.

don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat on your partners, don't be envious of your neighbors, and honor your elders. not a bad set of rules to live by.


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> BTW I totally agree with the person who said that we should not have LAWS in our COUNTRY that are based on someone's religious beliefs.


Ok, I agree....and dis-agree....  ..and here's why.

I think in this day and age mixing politics and religion is no good. That is where I agree. 

Where I dis-agree is that this country was founded on those laws, that were derived from the bible. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be what it is today (good and bad I guess). I have a problem with people wanting to toss out 231 years of history, because they don't agree with what our founding fathers believed. 

....this should be good....mixing a discussion on religion with politics...  :hide:


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Well the 10 commandments are fine, but telling me I can't marry the woman I love and have the advantages of any other married couple, because a select group of extreme right wingers actually give a **** who I sleep with and love, is just plain wrong to me...


----------



## Pointgold

*God vs Science*

A Science Professor begins his school year with a lecture to the 
Students, "Let me explain the problem Science has with Religion." The 
Atheist Professor of Philosophy pauses before his class and then asks 
one of his new Students to stand. 

"You're a Christian, aren't you, Son?" "Yes sir," the Student says. 
"So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! 
God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." 
"Are you good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil." 

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a 
moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over 
here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would 
you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't 
say that." "But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person 
if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't." 

The student does not answer, so the Professor continues. "He doesn't, 
does He? My brother was a Christian who died of Cancer, even though 
he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can 
you answer that one?" The Student remains silent. "No, you can't, 
can you?" the Professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on 
his desk to give the Student time to relax. 

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?" "Er...yes," the 
Student says. "Is Satan good?" The Student doesn't hesitate on this 
one. "No." "Then where does Satan come from?" The Student falters. 
"From God." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, 
Son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." 
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?" 
"Yes." 

"So who created evil?" The Professor continued, "If God created 
everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to 
the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil." 
Again, the Student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? 
Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this 
world?" The Student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "So who created 
them?" The Student does not answer again, so the Professor repeats 
his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. 

Suddenly the Lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. 
The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another 
Student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, Son?" 
The Student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, Professor, I do." 

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use 
to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen 
Jesus?" "No sir, I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever 
heard your Jesus?" "No, sir, I have not." "Have you ever felt your 
Jesus, tasted your Jesus, or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any 
sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?" "No, 
Sir, I'm afraid I haven't." 

"Yet you still believe in Him?" "Yes." "According to the rules of 
empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, Science says your God 
doesn't exist. What do you say to that, Son?" "Nothing," the Student 
replies. "I only have my faith." "Yes, faith," the Professor 
repeats. "And that is the problem Science has with God. There is no 
evidence, only faith." 

The Student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of 
his own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?" 
"Yes," the Professor replies. "There's heat." "And is there such a 
thing as cold?" "Yes, Son, there's cold too." "No Sir, there 
isn't." 

The Professor turns to face the Student, obviously interested. The 
room suddenly becomes very quiet. The Student begins to explain. 
"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, 
unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat, or no heat, but we don't 
have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, 
which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no 
such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the 
lowest -458 degrees." 

"Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits 
energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit 
energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You 
see, Sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. 
We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because 
heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, Sir, just the 
absence of it." Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in 
the classroom, sounding like a hammer. 

"What about darkness, Professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?" 
"Yes," the Professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it 
isn't darkness?" "You're wrong again, Sir. Darkness is not something; 
it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, 
bright light, flashing light; but, if you have no light constantly you 
have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning 
we use to define the word." "In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, 
you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?" 

The Professor begins to smile at the Student in front of him. This 
will be a good Semester. "So what point are you making, young man?" 
"Yes, Professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to 
start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed." The 
Professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can 
you explain how?" 

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Student explains. 
"You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a 
bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, 
something we can measure. Sir, Science can't even explain a thought." 
"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less 
fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is 
to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive 
thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it." 

"Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your Students that they evolved 
from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary 
process, young man, yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed 
evolution with your own eyes, Sir?" The Professor begins to shake his 
head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A 
very good Semester, indeed. 

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and 
cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you 
not teaching your opinion, Sir? Are you now not a Scientist, but a 
Preacher?" The class is in uproar. The Student remains silent until 
the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making 
earlier to the other Student, let me give you an example of what I 
mean." 

The Student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who 
has ever seen the Professor's brain?" The class breaks out into 
laughter. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's 
brain, felt the Professor's brain, touched, or smelt the Professor's 
brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the 
established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, Science 
says that you have no brain, with all due respect, Sir." "So if 
Science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, Sir?" 

Now the room is silent. The Professor just stares at the Student, his 
face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man 
answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith." 

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with 
life," the Student continues. "Now, Sir, is there such a thing as 
evil?" Now uncertain, the Professor responds, "Of course, there is. 
We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to 
man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the 
world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil." 

To this the Student replied, "Evil does not exist Sir, or at least it 
does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is 
just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe 
the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of 
what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. 
It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness 
that comes when there is no light." The Professor sat down. 


If you read it all the way through and had a smile on your face when 
you finished, mail to your Friends and Family with the title: God vs 
Science .


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

Pointgold....that was good.


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Faith's mommy said:


> you can change mine to Atheist if you like.
> 
> and, i disagree - i think if the laws in this country were based on some of the 10 commandments we'd be doing ok.
> 
> don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, don't cheat on your partners, don't be envious of your neighbors, and honor your elders. not a bad set of rules to live by.


I think we would have figured all of those out without biblical guidance...at least, I hope we would have!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Yeah it's nice to think people can do good just because we want to be- not because we're told to!


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Yeah it's nice to think people can do good just because we want to be- not because we're told to!


Yes, but how do we know what "good" is without a moral compass so to speak?? If we have nothing telling us what "good" is who's to say that for example killing all babies born with disabilities isn't good?? We are "saving" them from a life of hardship and ridicule (unfortunetly). Is that not "good"??? 

I know that's a harsh example...but it's what came to mind.


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Yes, but how do we know what "good" is without a moral compass so to speak?? If we have nothing telling us what "good" is who's to say that for example killing all babies born with disabilities isn't good?? We are "saving" them from a life of hardship and ridicule (unfortunetly). Is that not "good"???


Even with a moral compass- that could be a debate. As could abortion - Do you save a life so they can live unwanted and uncared for or abandoned....or even die later at the hands of abusive parents....

Even in religion not everyones compass will face a moral "north".

:no: Please note that I am not for killing babies or children with disabilities and the exambles for were the sake of argument only!!! :no:


----------



## Angel_Kody

Penny'smom said:


> Lutheran by upbringing. I have invented my own religion: reverence for God, home and family, all God's creatures, caretaker of our earth and the golden rule.
> 
> I'm really not interested in anything that means I have to get up early, shower, get dressed and go out on Sunday mornings. I'm content to worship with a cup of tea from the swing in my shade garden, Golden at my feet, while the sun comes up.


 
Penny'smom...I think you might be my long lost twin!!! :wave: I couldn't have described myself better!! :


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

Farley Rocks! said:


> Even with a moral compass- that could be a debate. As could abortion - Do you save a life so they can live unwanted and uncared for or abandoned....or even die later at the hands of abusive parents....
> 
> Even in religion not everyones compass will face a moral "north".
> 
> :no: Please note that I am not for killing babies or children with disabilities and the exambles for were the sake of argument only!!! :no:


True, true....good point! I guess that argument comes down to what you consider "life" or even your views on when "life" begins...and such, which is a whole different can of worms...  

Disclaimer: "you" stands for people as a whole, not Farley Rocks specifically.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

We DON'T and IMO there is no actual right and actual wrong- just what we THINK, and it varies from person to person!  That's why it's so complicated. 

I know what I think is good, is acceptable (not good, but not bad either), and what is bad- but others would totally disagree.


----------



## Luvinmygoldens

Pointgold,

I loved your post.


----------



## Cam's Mom

> The Student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?" The class breaks out into
> laughter. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's
> brain, felt the Professor's brain, touched, or smelt the Professor's
> brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the
> established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, Science
> says that you have no brain, with all due respect, Sir." "So if
> Science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, Sir?"


Perhaps not, but it is possible to do so...under anesthetic with a trained nuerologist...faith is not needed in anything but the neurologists skill. People have been able to see, feel, etc brains for millenia.

*And, you can observe evolution in microscopic organisms.* It's why the medical and scientififc world is in turmoil about the very real possiblity of an flu pandemic. Do you ( and I mean everyone, not singling anyone out here) get yearly flu shots? Why? Because the viruses causing flu are EVOLVING, they eveloving to ensure their own survival despite are efforts to ward them off with vaccines....and so yearly we have to come up with new vaccines. Same with MRSA ( methycillin resistant staph aureus) the bacterial plague of modern surgery...Staph bacteria are eveloving to survive our antibiotics. Teh latest news is there's a domestic version of he hospital super bug...particularly lethal in the US.

Although your story may have been humerous, it is flawed.


----------



## Cam's Mom

> I think we would have figured all of those out without biblical guidance...at least, I hope we would have!


Someone did. A human, as I remeber wrote them on rock tablets


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## Cam's Mom

> I think we would have figured all of those out without biblical guidance...at least, I hope we would have!


We did, as I remember, it was a human who wrote them on stone tablets. And the Chinese, Indians and many other ancient religions had come up with remarkably similar ideals even earlier.


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## tcww

*Rock Tablets*

According to the Bible, God wrote them on the tablets and gave them to Moses.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Cam's Mom said:


> Perhaps not, but it is possible to do so...under anesthetic with a trained nuerologist...faith is not needed in anything but the neurologists skill. People have been able to see, feel, etc brains for millenia.
> 
> *And, you can observe evolution in microscopic organisms.* It's why the medical and scientififc world is in turmoil about the very real possiblity of an flu pandemic. Do you ( and I mean everyone, not singling anyone out here) get yearly flu shots? Why? Because the viruses causing flu are EVOLVING, they eveloving to ensure their own survival despite are efforts to ward them off with vaccines....and so yearly we have to come up with new vaccines. Same with MRSA ( methycillin resistant staph aureus) the bacterial plague of modern surgery...Staph bacteria are eveloving to survive our antibiotics. Teh latest news is there's a domestic version of he hospital super bug...particularly lethal in the US.
> 
> Although your story may have been humerous, it is flawed.


Agreed... with no offense intended.


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## Farley Rocks!

tcww said:


> According to the Bible, God wrote them on the tablets and gave them to Moses.


Yes...a feat again accounted for and recorded by man...and man is flawed. PROVING - That if you want something done right...you just have to do it yourself :bowl:

Faith...belief without absolute proof.....Anything that wants me to just accept and not question makes me suspicious. I would not allow that of my husband and most certainly not from any God.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Cam's Mom said:


> Perhaps not, but it is possible to do so...under anesthetic with a trained nuerologist...faith is not needed in anything but the neurologists skill. People have been able to see, feel, etc brains for millenia.
> 
> *And, you can observe evolution in microscopic organisms.* It's why the medical and scientififc world is in turmoil about the very real possiblity of an flu pandemic. Do you ( and I mean everyone, not singling anyone out here) get yearly flu shots? Why? Because the viruses causing flu are EVOLVING, they eveloving to ensure their own survival despite are efforts to ward them off with vaccines....and so yearly we have to come up with new vaccines. Same with MRSA ( methycillin resistant staph aureus) the bacterial plague of modern surgery...Staph bacteria are eveloving to survive our antibiotics. Teh latest news is there's a domestic version of he hospital super bug...particularly lethal in the US.
> 
> Although your story may have been humerous, it is flawed.


My take on this is a little different. Yes, with modern science we can do all those things. But in the story the student was asking if *anyone in the class* had seen, touched his brain. Maybe it's a minor difference.... Tomato, tomahto...


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## Farley Rocks!

Tomahto - Hah! I love you guys!!


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## tcww

Has any one here been in a foxhole during a battle, or in the middle of a raging typhoon with 50 - 60 foot waves?


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## Carsonsdaddy

Farley Rocks! said:


> Yes...a feat again accounted for and recorded by man...and man is flawed. PROVING - That if you want something done right...you just have to do it yourself :bowl:
> 
> Faith...belief without absolute proof.....Anything that wants me to just accept and not question makes me suspicious. I would not allow that of my husband and most certainly not from any God.


I have absolute proof.... He has changed my life! This is enough for me....I'm not saying that has to be enough for you though. My God has never asked for faith without questions, He doesn't want robots. I believe very stongly that we shouldn't take anything at face value. Just because someone tells us we need to believe it doesn't make it true. When someone tells me something I "should" believe....I explore it. Find where in the bible it says that this is part of who God is...then I will accept or decline that belief. I am not a robot...I have a living relationship with my God through his spoken word...the bible. 

That is what I believe...but I'm not going to press anyone else to believe it...unless they ask!


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## tcww

*Yup!!!!*



Carsonsdaddy said:


> I have absolute proof.... He has changed my life! This is enough for me....I'm not saying that has to be enough for you though. My God has never asked for faith without questions, He doesn't want robots. I believe very stongly that we shouldn't take anything at face value. Just because someone tells us we need to believe it doesn't make it true. When someone tells me something I "should" believe....I explore it. Find where in the bible it says that this is part of who God is...then I will accept or decline that belief. I am not a robot...I have a living relationship with my God through his spoken word...the bible.
> 
> That is what I believe...but I'm not going to press anyone else to believe it...unless they ask!


I agree! God does not ask me to check my brain at the entrance to church.


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## tcww

...assuming I have one......


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

We have Alter Girls at our church.


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## Carsonsdaddy

tcww said:


> ...assuming I have one......


ha HA!!! Good point....I've never seen it....or touched it...


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## Faith's mommy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well the 10 commandments are fine, but telling me I can't marry the woman I love and have the advantages of any other married couple, because a select group of extreme right wingers actually give a **** who I sleep with and love, is just plain wrong to me...


especially since the 10 commandments don't say anything about that. there isn't a "thou shalt not be homosexual" in there.

and, sadly, it's larger than a select group of extreme right wingers who feel that way. i'm constantly amazed at how many folks feel that their marriage is somehow lessened or threatened by the idea that two people of the same sex should use the word "marriage"


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## tcww

*Brain*



Carsonsdaddy said:


> ha HA!!! Good point....I've never seen it....or touched it...


Me neither!


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## AquaClaraCanines

My love for Courtney is not a "threat" to the institution of marriage, or to any straight couples' marriage. Marriage is Marriage, and I don't see why anyone would be threatened by gay marriage. It's not affecting THEIR marriages. EQUAL rights are not SPECIAL rights! That's all we're asking for- EQUAL rights.

Marriage is a committed bond between two people who love one another, for life, and want to share life, through good and bad. How can that be wrong? 

I felt this way long before I was ever in a gay relationship, too, btw.

Saw a cool bumper sticker once- "I'm Straight but not Narrow- I Support Gay Marriage"

It made me smile


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## AquaClaraCanines

BTW I *have* seen Courtney's brain- it's BIG and very nice


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## monomer

PG... There are a multitude of logical holes in that story... I'm at work and don't have the time right now to point out and deal with every single one but I will just mention a couple of things here...

If there is no such thing as evolution then where are all the myriad (millions) of lifeforms we can only find in fossils records? and where are the fossils of so many of today's modern day creatures? The 'creation' of all our different breeds of dogs is just an example of man controlling the direction of evolution... it is the stuff of proof of evolution.

The whole concept of "good" and "evil" is purely man made... nature has no need of such rules of fairness (another purely man-made concept)... that is man's way of trying to control society. IOW, 'good' and 'evil' are purely concepts and very poorly defined concepts at that. Mathematics are also concepts that we use to help us solve very complex problems... it exists only in the mind of man, however unlike 'qualities' (good/evil/etc), mathematics is highly defined and therefore indisputably provable in our accomplishments. We try to use the ill defined concepts of 'good' and 'evil' to likewise solve problems of holding societies of man together so we can accomplish great things... that means getting people to willingly do the bidding of others and so someone must defined these concepts and use coercion to enforce (like using stories of an after-life where rewards and punishment can then be meted out)... that's were all the various 'holy books' come into play. A common sense of morality is a necessary component of any truly stable society but it (concept of morality) is still purely man-made. Must we all have the same morality code? and to what extent should it be enforced? These are the real questions we should be grappling with. The whole discussion of duality of words is purely tied up in the semantics of language and says nothing about the existence of a God being... that is merely a sophomoric distraction.


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## Farley Rocks!

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I have absolute proof.... He has changed my life!


I was quoting the definition of faith 

God changed your life....or you did by changing your actions and ways of thinking? The Bible can be very inspirational but (IMO) people chose to change. 

In the churches I have attended there was always an emphasis on accepting without doubt as God does not need to PROVE himself and a wariness of being "worldly". And it is a rare person who believes in the Bible entirely and does not find some discrepancy between the "word" and their heart.

But my experiance is limited to the Catholic, Baptist, Assemblies of God, Mennonite and Kingdom Halls I have attended in my area and is no way a reflection of the establishments attended by members on this forum. The UU Church I attend is very accepting of all religions and has a stong sense of community regardless of backgrounds and beliefs. That to me is the most appealing thing about religion and is common in all I have studied - togetherness, support and generousity in times of need.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Amen to that...

You explained quite well what I attempted to say above (about there being no "good" and "bad" in reality).


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## Carsonsdaddy

Ok....Gay Marriage. 

I have no idea what I think about this. 

I do know that I believe that homosexuality and/or Lesbianality ( :doh:  ) is wrong...

BUT...

I do think that this issue is argued more about that fact than the "sanctity" of marriage. I think the fact that gay couples aren't allowed to marry and share in equality the benefits (financial/emotional) of that is wrong. This does not change the fact that *I* believe homosexuality is wrong. 

Disclaimer: I do *NOT* hate anyone who is gay. To me that is the same as hating someone who lies, steals, kills, or any other "sin". Those things are wrong, but they are not who the person IS. I disagree with it but I disagree with alot of people...and still love/like them.


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## Farley Rocks!

BUT, do you think it is wrong based on the Bible? Why is being homosexual wrong in your eyes? Will good people go to hell for being homosexual?

When taken in context with the times - every passage depicting "homosexuality" in the Bible- actually has nothing to do with homosexuality in todays terms.


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## AquaClaraCanines

On a dog related note...

It is my experience that the eccentric and wordly types attracted to sighthounds tend to be more likely to be non religious, non traditional, and more Progressive politically. Interesting to me to note that the GR forum has a VERY high percentage of Christians and practicing Catholics compared to the Saluki and Whippet owners I have seen questioned over the years. It does make sense, though- Goldens are a very traditional family dog, and are often portrayed in everything from art to books to TV advertisements as the ideal "WASP" family dog. 

On the other hand, the average all American Golden owner has likely never even heard of a Saluki... and few would pick one as a child's playmate.

With my circle of sighthound owners, worldy types, bohemians, and so forth, I actually spent most of my childhood thinking people who believed in God were a small minority. Obviously I know that's not true, now, but it shows how conditioned we can get! To this day I don't have any real life friends who attend church, and always wonder who it actually is that GOES to church every Sunday- none of my friends and no one in my immediate or extended family on either side ever attends church, or ever has to my knowledge. We don't get married in, have funerals in, or do anything else in a church in my family. My entire exposure to religion was through private school  I am glad I got to learn about it, though, as it is such a major influence in the world.

That said, I am off to attend a family funeral (my mother's sister) right now... not in a church! lol


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## Carsonsdaddy

Farley Rocks! said:


> BUT, do you think it is wrong based on the Bible? Why is being homosexual wrong in your eyes? Will good people go to hell for being homosexual?
> 
> When taken in context with the times - every passage depicting "homosexuality" in the Bible- actually has nothing to do with homosexuality in todays terms.


See...that's the thing....I'm not really sure what I think about it. I'm kinda up in the air. It's hard because as a practicing Christian I get lumped in with the "Jesus Freaks" who can give us a bad name.... But there are some issues that I just don't know what I think about...


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## monomer

Is sexual orientation a conscious choice? or is it 'hardwired' prior to birth? ...like being mentally retarded. So since mental retardation is not the norm, then it too must be wrong?! I personally believe both homosexuality and mental retardation are manifestations of unusual development of the human brain during its fetus stage... IOW, it is just another form (variation) of the human being and though it doesn't lead to perpetuation of the species it does occur in nature. So for the "believers" here, if God created a mentally retarded person its okay, right? but if He created a homosexual individual then it is NOT? I don't get it. The only way you could justify that stance is to believe that homosexuals CHOOSE to be homosexuals... and for what purpose would anyone choose this sexual orientation? its certainly not one of convenince...

I typing all this on the fly and so it may not come across in as logical an order as I usually express myself in... cut me some slack here okay?


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Oh no. Maybe I should trade Farley in  And for the record - I am really enjoying this debate! Everyone is so soft and non-obsessive or intrusive. Such fun it is to disagree with such agreeable people...or at least pretend to disagree and a lot of this stuff is just for the sake of debate!!


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## Luvinmygoldens

monomer said:


> The whole discussion of duality of words is purely tied up in the semantics of language and says nothing about the existence of a God being... that is merely a *sophomoric* distraction.


 
????? Sophomoric as in "childish, adolescent, juvenile"? I'm positive my own faith and belief in God is none of those.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Jeremy, I respect you for the way you worded that! Thankyou for that.

Obviously I disagree with you. I don't think any kind of pleasure between consenting adults could ever be wrong, because they're both (or all!  ) enjoying it. When someone isn't enjoying it, that's another matter.

Since I don't believe in or care what the Bible says (beyond it's influence on the world and importance as a major work), nothing anyone could ever quote from the Bible, or any other book, would make me feel like loving any other person I choose is wrong.

So many think being gay is just about sex... forget the lesbian sex for a while (if you can, Rick LOL) and remember that like any life long union/marriage, it's about love, friendship, and sharing the tasks, joys, and hardships of life with another human being.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Agreed, enjoying!!

I did NOT choose to be gay. I have had crushes on women/girls since I was a child in school- even before I knew what it was!

I DID CHOOSE to act on it, be with a woman, and be happy- but I did NOT choose to have the preference in the first place. 

Nor would I WANT to choose to lead a life of misery and unfilled passion and love and denial of a part of who I am as a person. If there were a God, I doubt he'd want any of us to do that, either.


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## AquaClaraCanines

****** now I really HAVE to leave and buy some shoes I can wear to a funeral... Converse won't cut it


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## monomer

Luvinmygoldens said:


> ????? Sophomoric as in "childish, adolescent, juvenile"? I'm positive my own faith and belief in God is none of those.


It refers not to anyone's faith but rather to that 'story' PG reprinted... that was merely a use of semantics to try and bolster an argument that God does indeed existed and that professors are idiots... concepts I personally don't subscribe to.


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## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Jeremy, I respect you for the way you worded that! Thankyou for that.


Thanks....I was trying really hard not to offend anyone...I know it's a touchy subject.  



> So many think being gay is just about sex... forget the lesbian sex for a while (if you can, Rick LOL) and remember that like any life long union/marriage, it's about love, friendship, and sharing the tasks, joys, and hardships of life with another human being.


See that is the part that gets me all confused... I think because of that gay marriage should be allowed....but that kinda goes against my belief that homosexuality is wrong. ...but I believe that you should have the same right's as everyone else... ...my brain hurts!


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## Luvinmygoldens

monomer said:


> It refers not to anyone's faith but rather to that 'story' PG reprinted... that was merely a use of semantics to try and bolster an argument that God does indeed existed and the science is bunk and that professors are idiots... all concepts I personally don't subscribe to.


Ok, thanks for clarifying!:wave:


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## RickGibbs

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Ok....Gay Marriage.
> 
> I have no idea what I think about this.
> 
> I do know that I believe that homosexuality and/or Lesbianality ( :doh:  ) is wrong...
> 
> BUT...
> 
> I do think that this issue is argued more about that fact than the "sanctity" of marriage. I think the fact that gay couples aren't allowed to marry and share in equality the benefits (financial/emotional) of that is wrong. This does not change the fact that *I* believe homosexuality is wrong.
> 
> Disclaimer: I do *NOT* hate anyone who is gay. To me that is the same as hating someone who lies, steals, kills, or any other "sin". Those things are wrong, but they are not who the person IS. I disagree with it but I disagree with alot of people...and still love/like them.


I agree that homosexuality is wrong......for me. I'm not attracted to men, other than Jeremy. So I don't want to be gay.

But other than that, it's none of my business.


----------



## Luvinmygoldens

Carsonsdaddy said:


> See that is the part that gets me all confused... I think because of that gay marriage should be allowed....but that kinda goes against my belief that homosexuality is wrong. ...but I believe that you should have the same right's as everyone else... ...my brain hurts!


Jeremy, I know exactly what you're trying to say, it's just hard to put into words.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Luvinmygoldens said:


> Jeremy, I know exactly what you're trying to say, it's just hard to put into words.


Thanks....I'm glad someone get's it. I'm not just blabbering on and on...


----------



## RickGibbs

AquaClaraCanines said:


> forget the lesbian sex for a while (if you can, Rick LOL)


lol....I can't get it outta my mind....


----------



## monomer

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Thanks....I was trying really hard not to offend anyone...I know it's a touchy subject.
> 
> 
> 
> See that is the part that gets me all confused... I think because of that gay marriage should be allowed....but that kinda goes against my belief that homosexuality is wrong. ...but I believe that you should have the same right's as everyone else... ...my brain hurts!


Jeremy... its okay to think about things, there are more things in this world none of us have answers to than the things we do know with all certainty. Take all the time you need to decide for yourself where your morals and faith come together, there really is no time limit. I think about stuff all the time and know I will go to the grave with many, many unanswered questions...


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## Farley Rocks!

RickGibbs said:


> lol....I can't get it outta my mind....


Now were are COMPLETELY changing the subject!!


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## tcww

*Biblical Prohibitions........*

If (and that's one big "IF"), a person accepts the Bible as God's (another big "IF") infallible word, then here are a few instances where the Bible does indeed prohibit homosexuality:

In *Leviticus 18:22 and 24 *homosexuality is described as an "abomination" and "defiling." It is reprehensible and unclean.
In *Leviticus 20:13* it is again described as an "abomination" but here as one worthy of the death penalty!
*Deuteronomy 23:17* forbade the presence of a "********" in the land of Israel.
An incident similar to that of Sodom and Gomorrah is seen again in *Judges 19*. Again the sin of homosexuality is described as "wickedness."
In *1 Kings 14, 15, and 22* the removal of male prostitutes from the land of Israel is viewed as a sign of much-needed spiritual reformation.
The prohibition in *Deuteronomy 22:5* of women wearing men's clothing appears to be a specific condemnation of transvestism.
In *Romans 1:18-32* the apostle Paul condemns the practice in the severest terms. Homosexuality is "unclean," "impure," "dishonoring to the body," "vile," "degrading / disgraceful," "contrary to nature," "unseemly/ obscene," "improper activity of a depraved mind," "unrighteous," "wicked," etc. Of particular importance to the apostle in this passage is the fact that homosexuality is "unnatural"--contrary to nature. In other words, nature itself teaches that the practice is wrong; we all know it intuitively. Homosexuality is, then, a particularly _rebellious_ sin.
In *1 Corinthians 6:9-10* the apostle Paul speaks of homosexuals as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" who "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." The terms he uses here seem to be specific references to both active and the passive participants in a homosexual relationship. Such people are "unrighteous," he says, and if they remain in that practice they will be condemned.



These aren't my opinions, but they do support the conservative Christian mindset.




Amazing what you can find on Google!



Think I'll stick with Yukon Jack......my philosopher of choice!


----------



## Pointgold

OF course there are a number of holes in my story, which was exactly that - a story. And it wasn't meant as anything else. 

As for marriage, since it has been brought into this discussion, I will say this - I have many very close friends who are gay, and have been in committed relationships for years. For all intents and purposes, they are married. But, by it's very definition, marriage is the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law. That said, I have NO quarrel with same sex couples entering into a legal union wherby they have the same rights and repsonsibilities as heterosexual couples. I'll stand up for any of my same sex couple friends who wish to do so. But I do not want to see the definition of the word marriage changed to accomodate that union. 

All that said, I am the LAST person on this earth who will try to force religion, or anything else for that matter, down anyon'es throat. At the same time, however, I do resent those who do not maintain their own form of religious beliefs telling me or anyone who does, that it is somehow ridiculous, sophomoric, juvenile, a fantasy, or anything else, just as I would resent anyone imposing their own religious views on me.


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## tcww

I just wanna know who Cain and Abel married!


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## monomer

Luvinmygoldens said:


> Ok, thanks for clarifying!:wave:


:smooch: I don't try to beat anybody down for believing in God or having faith... I only know what works for me and have no problem talking about it if asked. My own family (relatives beyond the wife and I) has strong beliefs in God and practices it... its what gets them through life... I will not argue ever with that. Getting through this life is hard enough as it is...


----------



## monomer

Pointgold said:


> OF course there are a number of holes in my story, which was exactly that - a story. And it wasn't meant as anything else...


I knew, that you knew that...
But I wasn't sure all the other people knew that... It was an interesting AND entertaining story to be sure and I did like the cleverness of it, however using a professor to play the straight guy... well, that I couldn't just let go by. 

(For those who don't know... I teach for a living)


----------



## monomer

Pointgold said:


> ...however, I do resent those who do not maintain their own form of religious beliefs telling me or anyone who does, that it is somehow ridiculous, sophomoric, juvenile, a fantasy, or anything else, just as I would resent anyone imposing their own religious views on me.


Maybe you didn't get a chance to read *all* the posts but it was that story you printed that I referred to as "ridiculous, sophomoric, juvenile, a fantasy" not anyone's faith. (Actually sophomoric was the only adjective I used to describe that story.)


----------



## Pointgold

monomer said:


> Maybe you didn't get a chance to read *all* the posts but it was that story you printed that I referred to as "ridiculous, sophomoric, juvenile, a fantasy" not anyone's faith. (Actually sophomoric was the only adjective I used to describe that story.)


And, my statement was not directed at you specifically.


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Okay - Google this...and its LONG  In all cases - its a matter of translation and context. Homosexuality was a term made up by man and did not exist when the bible was written. Rendering MOST of those passages inconclusive at least. People have been conditioned to think that "to know someone biblically" means to have sex. 
See excerpts from a writing entitled 6 verses.

I*n Leviticus 18:22 and 24 homosexuality is described as an "abomination" and "defiling." It is reprehensible and unclean.*
_*In Leviticus 20:13 it is again described as an "abomination" but here as one worthy of the death penalty!*_
_*Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks. No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.*_
_*Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." *_
_*Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! *_
_*Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself." *_
_*The use of Leviticus to judge and condemn anyone today is ludicrous and absurd in the light of the total content of the book. To call the content of the Book of Leviticus the "word of God" and try to enforce any part of it today is without support in the teachings of Jesus and in the letters of Paul.*_

_*Jesus in Mark 7:18-23 chided his disciples for their lack of spiritual understanding. Jesus and his disciples had been condemned by the religious leaders because they did not wash and eat according to the Law. *_
_*Paul also rejected the absolute commands of Leviticus in Colossians 2:8-23, *_

_*Deuteronomy 23:17 "SODOMY" is not a biblical word. Laws against sodomy not only violate the Constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state; they also use an incorrect and wrongly translated term for the laws. A "********" in the Bible is simply a person who lives in Sodom, which included Lot and his family. The term "********" in the King James Version of Deuteronomy 23:17 and I Kings 14:24 is an incorrect translation of the Hebrew word for "temple prostitute." (See the recent book by Mark D. Jordan: The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology. University of Chicago Press, 1997.)*_
_*The average person assumes that the Bible clearly condemns male to male sexual intercourse as "sodomy" and that the city of Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality, which is seen as the worst of all sins in the Bible. These assumptions are based on no evidence at all in the Bible. *_

In *Romans 1:18-32* the apostle Paul condemns the practice in the severest terms. Homosexuality is "unclean," "impure," "dishonoring to the body," "vile," "degrading / disgraceful," "contrary to nature," "unseemly/ obscene," "improper activity of a depraved mind," "unrighteous," "wicked," etc. Of particular importance to the apostle in this passage is the fact that homosexuality is "unnatural"--contrary to nature. In other words, nature itself teaches that the practice is wrong; we all know it intuitively. Homosexuality is, then, a particularly _rebellious_ sin.
*All of this refers to idolatrous religious practices that were common in the time of Paul.*

_*Taking anything that Paul said out its context is like trying to drive a car blindfolded. You don't know where you are, where you have been, where you are going, or who you just ran over and killed!*_
_*As 2 Peter 3:16-18 <2_peter.html> pointed out, we have to be on guard against using Paul's writings in unhealthy and destructive ways*_
_*Romans 1:26-27 is part of Paul's vigorous denunciation of idolatrous religious worship and rituals. Read all of Romans 1:18 to 2:4 for the context of the verses. *_

_*Romans 1:26-27 contains some words used only here by Paul. Familiar words are used here in unusual ways. The passage is very difficult to translate. The argument is directed against some form of idolatry that would have been known to Paul's readers. To us, 2,000 years later and in a totally different culture, the argument is vague and indirect.*_

_*Verse 25 is clearly a denunciation of idol worship, "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."." Paul at no point in his writing dealt with same-sex orientation or the expression of love and affection between two people of the same sex who love each other.*_

_*Paul wrote Romans from Corinth, the second largest city in the empire and the crossroads of world trade and culture. Pausanius observed at about the same time as Paul that there were over 1,000 religions in Corinth. The most prominent were the fertility cult of Aphrodite, worship of Apollo, and the Delphi Oracle, which was across the bay from Corinth. Paul's readers would have been aware of the religious climate from which he wrote Romans and would have understood Paul a lot better than we do.*_

_*The word "passions" in 1:26 is the same word used to speak of the suffering and death of Jesus in Acts 1:3 and does not mean what we mean by "passion" today. Eros is the Greek word for romantic love, but eros is never used even once in the New Testament. "Passions" in 1:26 probably refers to the frenzied state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means of wine, drugs and music.*_

_*We do not know the meaning of "burn" in 1:27, because Paul never used this particular word anywhere else, and it's origin is uncertain. The term "against nature" is also strange here, since exactly the same term is used by Paul in Romans 11:21-24 to speak of God acting "against nature" by including the Gentiles with the Jews in the family of God. "Against nature" was used to speak of something that was not done in the usual way, but did not necessarily mean that something "against nature" was evil, since God also "acted against nature." *_

_*One more word needs special attention. "Committing indecent acts" in 1:27 is translated by King James Version as "working that which is unseemly." Phillips goes far beyond the evidence and renders it as "Shameful horrors!" The Greek word is askemosunen and is formed of the word for "outer appearance" plus the negative particle. It speaks of the inner or hidden part or parts of the individual that are not ordinarily seen or known in public. "Indecent" in 1 Corinthians 12:23 referred to the parts of the body that remain hidden but are necessary and receive honor. 1 Corinthians 13:5 used the word to say that love does not behave "indecently." *_

_*This word for "indecency" was used to translate Deuteronomy 24:1 into Greek to say that a man could divorce his wife if he "found some indecency in her." The religious teachers argued endlessly about what "some indecency" meant. Some said it was anything that displeased the husband. Others were more strict and said it could only refer to adultery. In Matthew 19:1-12, Jesus commented on Deuteronomy 24:1-4, but he did not define the term. *_

_*Paul was certainly aware of the variety of ways that the teachers interpreted the word "indecency," and he used it in a variety of ways himself. To read into "indecent acts" a whole world of homosexual ideas is to abandon the realities of objective academic study and to embark on useless and damaging speculation that cannot be supported by the meaning of the word or by Paul's use of it elsewhere.*_

_*If Paul had intended to condemn homosexuals as the worst of all sinners, he certainly had the language skills to do a clearer job of it than emerges from Romans 1:26-27. The fact is that Paul nowhere condemned or mentioned romantic love and sexual relations between people of the same sex who love each other. Paul never commented on sexual orientation. As in the rest of the Bible, Paul nowhere even hinted that Lesbians and Gay men can or should change their sexual orientation.*_
In *1 Corinthians 6:9-10* the apostle Paul speaks of homosexuals as "effeminate" and "abusers of themselves with mankind" who "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." The terms he uses here seem to be specific references to both active and the passive participants in a homosexual relationship. Such people are "unrighteous," he says, and if they remain in that practice they will be condemned.

*1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 sound very convincing in including lesbians and gay men in the most dreadful lists of depraved human behavior imaginable. The fact is that the word translated "homosexual" does not mean "homosexual" and the word translated "effeminate" does not mean "effeminate"!*
_*The English word "homosexual" is a composite word made from a Greek term (****, "the same") and a Latin term (sexualis , "sex"). The term "homosexual" is of modern origin and was not used until about 100 years ago. There is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is parallel to the word "homosexual." No Bible before the Revised Standard Version in 1946 used "homosexual" in any Bible translation.*_
_*The word translated as "homosexual" or "sexual pervert" or some other similar term is Greek arsenokoites, which was formed from two words meaning "male" and "bed". This word is not found anywhere else in the Bible and has not been found anywhere in the contemporary Greek of Paul's time. We do not know what it means. The word is obscure and uncertain. It probably refers to male prostitutes with female customers, which was a common practice in the Roman world, as revealed in the excavations at Pompeii and other sites. *_
_*When early Greek speaking Christian preachers condemned homosexuality, they did not use this word. John Chrysostom (A.D. 345-407) preached in Greek against homosexuality, but he never used this word for homosexuals, and when he preached on 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, he did not mention homosexuals. See the full discussion of this in John Boswell's book: Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality <resources__page_2_.html> - Appendix 1, "Lexicography and Saint Paul," pages 335-353.*_

*The word translated "effeminate in 1 Corinthians 6:9 is Greek malakoi and means "soft" or "vulnerable." The word is translated as "soft" in reference to clothing in Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 and as "illness" in Matthew 4:23 and 9:35. It is not used anywhere else in the New Testament and carries no hint of reference to sexual orientation. Malakoi in 1 Corinthians 6:9 probably refers those who are "soft," "pliable," "unreliable," or "without courage or stability." The translation of malakoi as "effeminate" is incorrect, ignorant, degrading to women, and impossible to justify based on ancient usage compared to the meaning of "effeminate" today.*

_*Three of the passages: Genesis 19:5; I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 are incorrectly translated. The other three: Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27 are taken out of their original setting of condemning idolatrous religious practices and wrongly used to judge and condemn people of the same sex who love each other. None of these passages refer to people of the same sex who love each other. None originally were aimed at homosexuals.*_

AND, I'm spent *:*


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## tcww

Just a thought....why can't a teacher/professor be used as a foil?


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## rosemary

monomer said:


> Is sexual orientation a conscious choice? or is it 'hardwired' prior to birth? ...like being mentally retarded. So since mental retardation is not the norm, then it too must be wrong?! I personally believe both homosexuality and mental retardation are manifestations of unusual development of the human brain during its fetus stage... IOW, it is just another form (variation) of the human being and though it doesn't lead to perpetuation of the species it does occur in nature. So for the "believers" here, if God created a mentally retarded person its okay, right? but if He created a homosexual individual then it is NOT? I don't get it. The only way you could justify that stance is to believe that homosexuals CHOOSE to be homosexuals... and for what purpose would anyone choose this sexual orientation? its certainly not one of convenince...
> 
> I typing all this on the fly and so it may not come across in as logical an order as I usually express myself in... cut me some slack here okay?


no body chooses to be bullied for being who they are which is what happened to me in school humiliated in church by so called christians my life was made hell because wait for it im a lesbian all the hell fire and damnation you can think of i dint choose this life style this lifestyle choose me if you like because of my orientation i have had no contact with my so called family cos they cant cope with the embarrassment


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## tcww

*Translations......*

Guess it all depends on the translations/interpretations.


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## monomer

tcww said:


> Just a thought....why can't a teacher/professor be used as a foil?


Now that's what I'm talking about... no respect, no respect at all...

See now, I would have chosen a president to be the straight guy in that story, it would have been more believable that way...


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## Farley Rocks!

You should have seen the fur fly at our holiday dinner when I told the Quaker Grandparents I'd rather my son be a homosexual then join the military!! Hahahaha. That was fun.


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## tcww

*The Torah*

You can't really discount the Old Testament totally, simply because our Jewish friends do not accept the New Testament.

Consequently, the Old Testament (Torah) prohibitions are quite legitimate.


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## tcww

*Foils.........and Epees.....*



monomer said:


> Now that's what I'm talking about... no respect, no respect at all...
> 
> See now, I would have chosen a president to be the straight guy in that story, it would have been more believable that way...


I figured it would be a Naval Officer. Then I could take umbrage.


Wow! That's a neat word!


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## monomer

rosemary said:


> no body chooses to be bullied for being who they are which is what happened to me in school humiliated in church by so called christians my life was made hell because wait for it im a lesbian all the hell fire and damnation you can think of i dint choose this life style this lifestyle choose me if you like because of my orientation i have had no contact with my so called family cos they cant cope with the embarrassment


I do know one thing... we can't choose who we fall in love with... it just happens. I do understand.


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## tcww

*Quakers*



Farley Rocks! said:


> You should have seen the fur fly at our holiday dinner when I told the Quaker Grandparents I'd rather my son be a homosexual then join the military!! Hahahaha. That was fun.


I thought Quakers were pacifists. That religion is one of the strongest reasons for true Conscientious Objectors in the military.


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## Farley Rocks!

Yes...but they would rather fight then be gay apparently  Grandma almost lost her teeth when I said that!


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## tcww

*Quakers*



Farley Rocks! said:


> Yes...but they would rather fight then be gay apparently  Grandma almost lost her teeth when I said that!


Very interesting, since the Quaker view of homsexuality (as a whole) is pretty ambivalent.


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## Jazzys Mom

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I have absolute proof.... He has changed my life! This is enough for me....I'm not saying that has to be enough for you though. My God has never asked for faith without questions, He doesn't want robots. I believe very stongly that we shouldn't take anything at face value. Just because someone tells us we need to believe it doesn't make it true. When someone tells me something I "should" believe....I explore it. Find where in the bible it says that this is part of who God is...then I will accept or decline that belief. I am not a robot...I have a living relationship with my God through his spoken word...the bible.
> 
> That is what I believe...but I'm not going to press anyone else to believe it...unless they ask!


Well said Carsonsdaddy! Exactly as I believe!

Pointgold --- I LOVED your story and am borrowing it for my friend to use as a life lesson for her homeschooled kids!

Now, have to go and read the rest of the posts from this afternoon!

Jazzys Mom


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## Farley Rocks!

tcww said:


> Very interesting, since the Quaker view of homsexuality (as a whole) is pretty ambivalent.


They told me the Quaker religion as a whole was pretty much absorbed by other religions now . They are quite opinionated on homosexuality, non-christians, politics, Christmas, sex before marriage (even made their son and his girlfriend ...in their 50's...sleep in separate rooms ) and do NOT allow any alcohol to cross their threshold EVER!! 

Ah well - even with the different views, they still love me :smooch:


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## Jazzys Mom

Farley Rocks! said:


> BUT, do you think it is wrong based on the Bible? Why is being homosexual wrong in your eyes? *Will good people go to hell for being homosexual?*
> 
> When taken in context with the times - every passage depicting "homosexuality" in the Bible- actually has nothing to do with homosexuality in todays terms.


LOL - Good people will go to hell for a lot of thing! You can't buy your way into Heaven with a "good" lifestyle or anything else. Its solely based on your acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior

Jazzys Mom


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## Farley Rocks!

Jazzys Mom said:


> LOL - Good people will go to hell for a lot of thing! You can't buy your way into Heaven with a "good" lifestyle or anything else. Its solely based on your acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior
> 
> Jazzys Mom


 
Thats what I was always taught..but then so many are condemned through no fault of their own. I was also told that children who died young would only get into heaven if they were baptized...Yet I thought you could only be batized if you accepted Jesus so that made no sense to me (as children are to young to fully understand). My son was not baptized...I left that decision to him.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Farley Rocks! said:


> Thats what I was always taught..but then so many are condemned through no fault of their own. I was also told that children who died young would only get into heaven if they were baptized...Yet I thought you could only be batized if you accepted Jesus so that made no sense to me (as children are to young to fully understand). My son was not baptized...I left that decision to him.


See I disagree with that. I was raised/taught that children too young to make the decision themselves go to heaven....and my dad is a pastor!!


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## Farley Rocks!

You dad rocks!


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## Judi

*Jews aren't Babtized.*



Farley Rocks! said:


> Thats what I was always taught..but then so many are condemned through no fault of their own. I was also told that children who died young would only get into heaven if they were baptized...Yet I thought you could only be batized if you accepted Jesus so that made no sense to me (as children are to young to fully understand). My son was not baptized...I left that decision to him.


They don't get into Heaven?


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## Carsonsdaddy

Judi said:


> They don't get into Heaven?


Also baptism is "an outward sign of your faith". Or so I was raised and believe. Doesn't mean if you aren't baptized you don't go to heaven.


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## Jazzys Mom

Carsonsdaddy said:


> See I disagree with that. I was raised/taught that children too young to make the decision themselves go to heaven....and my dad is a pastor!!


Thats what I was taught too! Llso, as you said in yoru latest post, baptism is an "outward" sign of your faith. If you are or are not baptized has nothing to do with going to heaven or not.

Jazzys Mom


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## Farley Rocks!

I was told that you had to believer in Jesus as the Savior to get into heaven but that if you were to young to believe you had to be baptised to ensure entry. Is there another reason why babies would be baptised?


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## Judi

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Also baptism is "an outward sign of your faith". Or so I was raised and believe. Doesn't mean if you aren't baptized you don't go to heaven.


Sounds like a contradiction to what you wrote previously.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Farley Rocks! said:


> I was told that you had to believer in Jesus as the Savior to get into heaven but that if you were to young to believe you had to be baptised to ensure entry. Is there another reason why babies would be baptised?


I've heard that that is why they baptize babies. I was when I was a baby, but I also was when I decided to accept Jesus as my savior. I'm not sure what's behind the Infant Baptism. I should ask my dad....he still does it. I know it's a denominational thing for the Christian Reformed Denomination. I'll ask him.


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## Carsonsdaddy

Judi said:


> Sounds like a contradiction to what you wrote previously.


where???


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## Carsonsdaddy

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I've heard that that is why they baptize babies. I was when I was a baby, but I also was when I decided to accept Jesus as my savior. I'm not sure what's behind the Infant Baptism. I should ask my dad....he still does it. I know it's a denominational thing for the Christian Reformed Denomination. I'll ask him.


Not sure how quickly he'll answer though.... he lives in TX and I'm in WA. I emailed him though.


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## Jazzys Mom

That answer isn't at all a contradiction. Baptism is an outward sign of your faith. Everyone is born into sin, we are human and will always be sinful. By immersion in the water is an outward sign of Jesus washing away our sins. Young children that are too young to decide for themselves and do not know of Jesus are not automatically sent to hell. Baptism will not assure their entrance into Heaven either. When children are taught about Jesus and they elect to accept Him as their Lord and Savior then they will spend eternity with Jesus in Heaven. I was taught if a child - no matter what its age is, knows about the existance of Jesus and does not accept Him into their lives then they are condemmed. I don't know if I am explaining this right or not --- Jeremy HELP!!!

Jazzys Mom


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## Jazzys Mom

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Not sure how quickly he'll answer though.... he lives in TX and I'm in WA. I emailed him though.


Does your dad BAPTIZE babies or DEDICATE them back to God? Our church dedicates babies back to God, as they are God's children anyway. Baptism is something that is not done until the child can decide for himself

Jazzys Mom


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## Carsonsdaddy

Jazzys Mom said:


> I was taught if a child - no matter what its age is, knows about the existance of Jesus and does not accept Him into their lives then they are condemmed. I don't know if I am explaining this right or not --- Jeremy HELP!!!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I think that's where it comes down to the question, when does a child "comprehend" the idea of salvation and Jesus dying for their sins? That is the point where the decision to accept or deny that sends them to either heaven or hell. Does that make sense?? What I'm not sure of though is WHEN that is. Is it different for each child? I don't believe there is a cut-off age. Like you have to decide by age 3. This is where, to me, it's important to raise my children in the church, and talk to them about Jesus when they are young....like my parents did. 

I think before they "comprehend" it, they go to heaven...


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## Carsonsdaddy

Jazzys Mom said:


> Does your dad BAPTIZE babies or DEDICATE them back to God? Our church dedicates babies back to God, as they are God's children anyway. Baptism is something that is not done until the child can decide for himself
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I think it's called baptizing but technically it is Dedicating. At least from what I remember off the top of my head.... It's the same idea as Dedicating...I think.


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## ShadowsParents

Ok, my 2 cents.... I am a Christian - I was raised in a Lutheran church and baptized when I was a few weeks old.. what I take this to be is my parents accepting Jesus into my life as I was not old enough to make that decision on my own yet. However, when I was older I when thru Confirmation which is where I accepted Jesus as my savior, on my own vows.

All that said, I'm going back to the homosexuality discussion - my brother and oldest newphew are both gay. I truly believe neither of them conscientiously (SP?) made this decision, any more than I made the decision to grow to 5'7" with flat feet. Why would someone choose a difference in themselves that is still widely misunderstood and ostracised in today's society? Most people WANT to get along with others and WANT to be understood by those around them. In the 70's my brother tried to be 'straight.' Know what it got him? 2 failed engagements and the crap beat out of him several times. Think he'd want that? He was trying to live up to what society wanted him to be..not who he was born to be. Therefore, since I believe that God created all of us, I believe God created my brother as a gay man for a reason. 

I do believe that the state/country should allow some type of union, if not marriage itself, between 2 people who love and respect each other and want to be there for each other the rest of their lives. All people in this type of union should share the same types of rights that me and my husband receive. I'm proud that the company I work for offers same-sex domestic partner benefits. YAY that's progress!

And I will add to the others saying it's great to come here and have a 'nice' discussion about what could be such heated topics. No one is throwing their views into someone's face, and I get the chance to read other opinions which might enlighten me to a new way of thinking too!

Angie


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## Emmysourgolden

Farley Rocks! said:


> I was told that you had to believer in Jesus as the Savior to get into heaven but that if you were to young to believe you had to be baptised to ensure entry. Is there another reason why babies would be baptised?


I baptised my son's as babys. Not because I thought they wouldn't get into heaven if they weren't. To us, Catholics, Baptism is a sacrament. We see it as becoming a member of the Catholic church. To us, we are born with original sin and it washes that away. The sacraments we have Baptism, Eucharist, Reconcialition, Confirmation, Marraige, Religious Vows and Annointing of the sick...aka Last Rites are, to me anyway, a combination of tradition and each sacrament give us grace. They are tools given to us. But, no, we do not believe that a baby that dies before it is baptised can't enter heaven. I'm such some Catholic somewhere believes that it's not what the majority of Catholics believe.


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## AquaClaraCanines

rosemary said:


> no body chooses to be bullied for being who they are which is what happened to me in school humiliated in church by so called christians my life was made hell because wait for it im a lesbian all the hell fire and damnation you can think of i dint choose this life style this lifestyle choose me if you like because of my orientation i have had no contact with my so called family cos they cant cope with the embarrassment


I'm sorry, my friend, that you have suffered so. We won't be in hell... I can assure you of that!


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## AquaClaraCanines

Jeremy I want to tell you how much your way of expressing yourself impresses me- not at all rude, or judging- and you are truly thinking, considering, and having an open mind. Much appreciated! 

I have NO problem with a personal belief that homosexuality is wrong.

I have a problem with people using that to make a law that denies us basic rights as human beings.


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## ShadowsParents

rosemary said:


> no body chooses to be bullied for being who they are which is what happened to me in school humiliated in church by so called christians my life was made hell because wait for it im a lesbian all the hell fire and damnation you can think of i dint choose this life style this lifestyle choose me if you like because of my orientation i have had no contact with my so called family cos they cant cope with the embarrassment


Rose I'm sorry to hear that. I sure hope you've 'made' a new family to surround yourself with. Hopefully one day your blood family will come around and see what they chose to miss out on by cutting you out of their life.


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## RickGibbs

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Also baptism is "an outward sign of your faith". Or so I was raised and believe. Doesn't mean if you aren't baptized you don't go to heaven.


That's my belief as well....


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## rosemary

ShadowsParents said:


> Rose I'm sorry to hear that. I sure hope you've 'made' a new family to surround yourself with. Hopefully one day your blood family will come around and see what they chose to miss out on by cutting you out of their life.


they can try but they wont get the greeting that they expect all i need in life are my daughter my dogs and my cats


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## Jazzys Mom

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I think that's where it comes down to the question, when does a child "comprehend" the idea of salvation and Jesus dying for their sins? That is the point where the decision to accept or deny that sends them to either heaven or hell. Does that make sense?? What I'm not sure of though is WHEN that is. Is it different for each child? I don't believe there is a cut-off age. Like you have to decide by age 3. This is where, to me, it's important to raise my children in the church, and talk to them about Jesus when they are young....like my parents did.
> 
> I think before they "comprehend" it, they go to heaven...


Just based on what I have seen as a bible school teacher for some years, I think each child is different and I think that difference is based somewhat on what they see and hear in their home life. I have had children as young as 3 accept Jesus Christ and UNDERSTAND the concept. Other children at 6 and 7 know about Jesus but don't quite fully understand what it means to "have Jesus live in their heart." These kids are generally the ones that are dropped off for bible school or the parents RARELY come to church so I know that their home life does not revolve around the teachings of the Bible. The little 3 and 4 year olds that accept and comprehend their decision are almost always children that are taught in the home to pray before meals, have Bible stories read (and explained) to them and the parents are true believers. During our music times we always have a praise song (I Love You Lord) and these little ones sit on the floor with their eyes closed and their little hands raised up to heaven! Some of them are laying on the floor praying by the time the song is over! To me this is beautiful! I know to some here it will sound cultish but it truly isn't. Its beautiful to see a little child praise my God!

Jazzys Mom


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## RickGibbs

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I have NO problem with a personal belief that homosexuality is wrong.


The thing I don't get is that it seems that many feel that homosexuality is the one "sin" we must stand against...

If, in fact, homosexuality is a sin, that's between that person and God. I have no right to push my beliefs on someone else anyway.


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## Carsonsdaddy

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Jeremy I want to tell you how much your way of expressing yourself impresses me- not at all rude, or judging- and you are truly thinking, considering, and having an open mind. Much appreciated!
> 
> I have NO problem with a personal belief that homosexuality is wrong.
> 
> I have a problem with people using that to make a law that denies us basic rights as human beings.


Thank you Jenna. I really believe that just because I believe something, it doesn't give me the right to force that on anyone else....or be rude, or walk all over people who dis-agree. Whatever you think about who Jesus is, it doesn't change the fact that he was, and that he showed a great example of how we should live. 

Love your neighbor as yourself!!


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## AquaClaraCanines

Agreed, Rick... and besides since when do you object to lesbians?


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## AquaClaraCanines

I absolutely think Jesus was a real person- the first and greatest of all hippies


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## Jazzys Mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Jeremy I want to tell you how much your way of expressing yourself impresses me- not at all rude, or judging- and you are truly thinking, considering, and having an open mind. Much appreciated!
> 
> I have NO problem with a personal belief that homosexuality is wrong.
> 
> I have a problem with people using that to make a law that denies us basic rights as human beings.


See, if everyone felt as we do here then the world wouldn't be in the nasty state its in now.

*"My way is right - you're wrong! No MY way is right and you're wrong!"*

And on and on it goes and no one is right!

Everybody is different and why God made us different is anyone's guess! I can't wait to get to Heaven to ask that question! The fact is, I am a Christian and believe wholly in God --- you Jenna are not and don't believe in God. I am a straight married woman and you, Jenna are in a gay relationship. The differences should have NOTHING to do with how we get along as sister human beings and I shouldn't (and don't) judge you and you don't judge me. Therefore, when we meet in Heaven someday (Yes, we will --) we will be able to sit and talk about our different lifestyles and then will know why we are different. Until then --- I love you sista!

Jazzys Mom


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## RickGibbs

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Agreed, Rick... and besides since when do you object to lesbians?


lol....good point.

I know that organized religion makes a point of being anti-gay....and I grew up in organized religion. 

My uncle is gay, but he never fully came out with it until my grandma died in '97....because she could never have lived with it... She lived with him her last two years, and ALWAYS got lots of anti-gay materials mailed to her at HIS address.

I know what the bible says......but no matter how I intrepret that, I still feel it's between my uncle and God. My uncle isn't going to suddenly become "normal" because some bible thumpers show up on his front porch and tell him he's going to hell.


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## Carsonsdaddy

RickGibbs said:


> I know what the bible says......but no matter how I intrepret that, I still feel it's between my uncle and God. My uncle isn't going to suddenly become "normal" because some bible thumpers show up on his front porch and tell him he's going to hell.


agreed!!! IMHO that would turn him more away from it....


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## AquaClaraCanines

Thanks Jazzy! I appreciate that


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## AquaClaraCanines

Your uncle is NORMAL... being queer is not a disease


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## RickGibbs

Second attempt at posting this....

This is from a concert transcript that I found years ago, from Rich Mullins. Even some of the church people probably don't know who Rich is, but they've heard his music. I consider him the greatest Christian music writer ever. He wrote Awesome God, which is his best known song....

Anyway, this is the quote, since it seems to kinda go with our conversation here:

_The concepts of biblical parables come to life in everyday conversations, The following dialogue is often recounted in concert by Rich Mullins, who befriended a man at a steak house while hiking along the Appalachian trail. As it was getting dark, the man, who we'll call John, offered Rich a ride back to his campsite. As the truck pulled out of town, Rich's new friend spoke up.

*John:* I probably ought to tell you that I'm gay. 
_
_*Rich:* I probably ought to tell you that I'm a Christian. 

*John:* Well, do you want to get out of the truck? 

*Rich:* No. It's still getting dark, and [my camp] is still miles up the road. 

*John:* But I thought Christians hated gays. 

*Rich:* That's really weird. My understanding of what Christ told us was that Christians were to love. I didn't know there were a lot of parameters set on that. 

*John:* I thought God hated gays. 

*Rich:* That's funny, because I thought God is love, and He has no choice but to love because that is what He is. 

*John:* Do you believe AIDS is God's punishment on gays? 

*Rich:* Well possibly, in the same sense that presidents are God's punishement on voters. I mean there are consequences. We make choices, and there are natural consequences for those choices. 

*John:* Will I go to hell for being gay? 

*Rich:* [I was ready to go, "Well, yes, of course, you'll go to hell for being gay." But that was one of those moments when the Good News really impressed me. What I heard myslef say was...] No, of course you won't go to hell for being gay anymore than I would go to hell for being dishonest. The only reason anybody ever went to hell was because they rejected the grace that God so longed to give them. 

*John:* I grew up in church, and I've never heard anybody ever say that God loved me. 

*Rich:* I think that of all the diseases in the world, the disease that all humankind suffers from, the disease that is most devastating to us is not AIDS, it's not gluttony, it's not cancer, it's not any of those things. It is the disease that comes aboust because we live in ignorance of the wealth of love that God has for us. What a great message we in the church have. It's relevant to people with AIDS and people without AIDS. It's relevant to homosexuals and to homophobes. It's relevant to Republicans and Democrats, to abortionists and anti-abortionists. It's relevant across the board._


----------



## monomer

If I believed in a God, my God wouldn't be an intolerant God... He would accept everyone into Heaven.

And about those un-baptized babies... I believe in the Catholic religion that un-baptized babies are supposed to go to some place called Limbo... No, I don't think any Latin music is playing there and babies aren't in line trying to go under a stick  But then again, I've been away from all the Dogma (aka mumbo-jumbo) for so long that maybe that was changed by some Pope recently... after all he is supposed to be God's representative here on earth, so he's got the power to do that kinda stuff. Whew, I'm glad I don't 'believe'... its too hard keeping up with all those rules and regulations and version up-dates and reinterpretations... its so much easier to just follow my own conscience.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Yeah imagine being dunked in water determining whether or not you burn in hell for eternity- now that is truly out there IMO


----------



## monomer

Imagine further, being an alien from another planet (hey, do aliens get to go to heaven too if they get 'saved'?) and view all the rituals associated with so many of our religions... do you think, to them, we'd resemble some primitive peoples (like say, the ancient Egyptians worshiping the sun god or Druids celebrating their pagan beliefs)? At times when I hear all the rules (that so many don't even understand and aren't really even sure of) and observe the rituals, I will 'mind flash' to some strange cult performing their rituals used to bind them as a group, maybe dancing around a fire pit or an alter in scared garb and chanting oaths, and a witch doctor leading them, etc... in my mind I really don't see much difference...

Ever see the movie Dogma? anyone?


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Not seen the movie but I agree...

SO what happened to all the people who were born and died before Christianity was invented?


----------



## monomer

Burning in hell I guess or maybe their souls get re-cycled... I really don't know... anyone know?

The movie is great... it plays with Catholic Dogma and after watching it for awhile you begin to get the point... everyone is looking for loopholes in the rules and when you can actually see this Dogma taken literally and played out with angels, the devil, even God (who is depicted as a woman no less) it becomes apparent that God doesn't work this way... He couldn't, its absolutely ridiculous and that's why the Catholic church banned the hell out of that movie. Its really worth a viewing, especially if you are a scholar of the Catholic dogma... BTW, the movie is not anti-God but rather the message is that God is whatever He is to you... He's your God and doesn't have to play by anyone else's rules.


----------



## Jazzys Mom

RickGibbs said:


> Second attempt at posting this....
> 
> This is from a concert transcript that I found years ago, from Rich Mullins. Even some of the church people probably don't know who Rich is, but they've heard his music. I consider him the greatest Christian music writer ever. He wrote Awesome God, which is his best known song....
> 
> Anyway, this is the quote, since it seems to kinda go with our conversation here:
> 
> _The concepts of biblical parables come to life in everyday conversations, The following dialogue is often recounted in concert by Rich Mullins, who befriended a man at a steak house while hiking along the Appalachian trail. As it was getting dark, the man, who we'll call John, offered Rich a ride back to his campsite. As the truck pulled out of town, Rich's new friend spoke up._
> 
> _*John:* I probably ought to tell you that I'm gay. _
> 
> _*Rich:* I probably ought to tell you that I'm a Christian. _
> 
> _*John:* Well, do you want to get out of the truck? _
> 
> _*Rich:* No. It's still getting dark, and [my camp] is still miles up the road. _
> 
> _*John:* But I thought Christians hated gays. _
> 
> _*Rich:* That's really weird. My understanding of what Christ told us was that Christians were to love. I didn't know there were a lot of parameters set on that. _
> 
> _*John:* I thought God hated gays. _
> 
> _*Rich:* That's funny, because I thought God is love, and He has no choice but to love because that is what He is. _
> 
> _*John:* Do you believe AIDS is God's punishment on gays? _
> 
> _*Rich:* Well possibly, in the same sense that presidents are God's punishement on voters. I mean there are consequences. We make choices, and there are natural consequences for those choices. _
> 
> _*John:* Will I go to hell for being gay? _
> 
> _*Rich:* [I was ready to go, "Well, yes, of course, you'll go to hell for being gay." But that was one of those moments when the Good News really impressed me. What I heard myslef say was...] No, of course you won't go to hell for being gay anymore than I would go to hell for being dishonest. The only reason anybody ever went to hell was because they rejected the grace that God so longed to give them. _
> 
> _*John:* I grew up in church, and I've never heard anybody ever say that God loved me. _
> 
> _*Rich:* I think that of all the diseases in the world, the disease that all humankind suffers from, the disease that is most devastating to us is not AIDS, it's not gluttony, it's not cancer, it's not any of those things. It is the disease that comes aboust because we live in ignorance of the wealth of love that God has for us. What a great message we in the church have. It's relevant to people with AIDS and people without AIDS. It's relevant to homosexuals and to homophobes. It's relevant to Republicans and Democrats, to abortionists and anti-abortionists. It's relevant across the board._


Rick, thank you for posting that. It was beautiful. I just love Rich Mullins and so wish that God had not taken him at such a young age. His music is the best. He also recorded a song called *My Deliverer* which is one of my favorites!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Jazzys Mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Yeah imagine being dunked in water determining whether or not you burn in hell for eternity- now that is truly out there IMO


 
Oh, no Jenna! Being baptized does not determine weather you go to Heaven or not. It accepting Jesus that determines that.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Agreed (from the Christian viewpoint) but I have heard this idea expressed before!


----------



## Pointgold

RickGibbs said:


> lol....good point.
> 
> I know that organized religion makes a point of being anti-gay....and I grew up in organized religion.
> 
> My uncle is gay, but he never fully came out with it until my grandma died in '97....because she could never have lived with it... She lived with him her last two years, and ALWAYS got lots of anti-gay materials mailed to her at HIS address.
> 
> I know what the bible says......but no matter how I intrepret that, I still feel it's between my uncle and God. My uncle isn't going to suddenly become "normal" because some bible thumpers show up on his front porch and tell him he's going to hell.


Not Episcopals. The U.S. Episcopalian church consecrated an openly gay bishop in 2003, and a lesbian priest came in fourth in the voting for the most recent election. 

Just as an aside, my father was a gay man. Not fun for him at all, as he was an R&D engineer at Chrysler at a time when being gay was not simply frowned upon, but made pariahs out of very fine people. His job was literally at risk. That said, even after he was out and things were becoming "easier" (as easy as being a gay man in the 70's and 80's AIDS era was...) he was appalled at the flagrancy of gays and lesbians coming out and the parades, etc. I get that. I'm not particularly keen about anyone, gay OR straight, shoving their sexuality in my face. That is not what my friends are about. I love them for their accomplishments, their brilliance, their creativity - whatever their strengths are - I don't sit around with my straight friends and discuss their sex lives, nor will I with my gay friends. Some things are better left private and sacred, IMO. Sure, I know they're gay. And they know I'm straight. Who cares?


----------



## monomer

RickGibbs said:


> ..._What a great message we in the church have. It's relevant to people with AIDS and people without AIDS. It's relevant to homosexuals and to homophobes. It's relevant to Republicans and Democrats, to abortionists and anti-abortionists. It's relevant across the board._


I don't get it... I probably wasn't paying enough attention but I really thought someone said earlier that homosexuals couldn't get into heaven? Maybe that was the rules in some other church, I have a hard time distinguishing which rules belong to which church and who on the forum belongs to which church etc. and if they can't get into heaven but won't go to hell then where do they go? I'm really confused here ...BTW, which church does this Rich fellow belong to? ...abortionists can get into heaven too? That's great news! So far, I like his church...


----------



## monomer

RickGibbs said:


> ..._*John:* Do you believe AIDS is God's punishment on gays? _
> 
> _*Rich:* Well possibly, in the same sense that presidents are God's punishement on voters. I mean there are consequences. We make choices, and there are natural consequences for those choices..__._


So does that mean that blood transfusion patients that wind up with AIDS are also being punished by God for making some bad choices? or do you think they are simply considered collateral damage of God's wrath... errr, consequences?


----------



## monomer

rosemary said:


> they can try but they wont get the greeting that they expect all i need in life are my daughter my dogs and my cats


If they should ever come around to a better understanding of what life is about and try to make contact with you.... Please, please, please try not to be bitter... Bitterness can be very emotionally confining and it mostly hurts yourself... instead be good to yourself. You know what feels really, really good? Forgiveness... for real.


----------



## Jazzys Mom

monomer said:


> I don't get it... I probably wasn't paying enough attention but I really thought someone said earlier that homosexuals couldn't get into heaven? Maybe that was the rules in some other church, I have a hard time distinguishing which rules belong to which church and who on the forum belongs to which church etc. and if they can't get into heaven but won't go to hell then where do they go? I'm really confused here *...BTW, which church does this Rich fellow belong to? ...abortionists can get into heaven too? That's great news! So far, I like his church...[/*quote]
> 
> Rich Mullins was killed some years back ---- in the '90's. He was a wonderful Christian musician. So, yes, he was a Christian ---- and still is, just praising God in Heaven now instead of here on earth.
> 
> Abortionists, murderers, rapists ------ will be in heaven ----IF they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Now, some will ask if this gives a person the liberty to killand rape. No, it doesn't but what you do in this life doesn't send you to hell or get you into heaven. Its only believing in Jesus that can do that
> 
> Jazzys Mom


----------



## monomer

Thanks for the wonderful explanations. Just one follow up question... which church do you belong to? I'm assuming that you're speaking for that church as I do know beliefs vary with denomination, right?


----------



## Jazzys Mom

monomer said:


> Thanks for the wonderful explanations. Just one follow up question... which church do you belong to? I'm assuming that you're speaking for that church as I do know beliefs vary with denomination, right?


I belong to a non-denominational Christian church - Bible based.

I love these type of debates! This one in particular (the subject is close to my heart) has been wonderful because we have all stayed sane! LOL I have learned a lot about people and how they think in this debate!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Jemma's Mum

tcww said:


> What's the difference between a Catholic and a Christian??????


Catholics were the 1st Christians. I believe all christians were Catholic up until a few hundred years ago. The spilt-offs started with Henry 8th.

cheers,
Lorraine


----------



## monomer

Jazzys Mom said:


> ...LOL I have learned a lot about people and how they think in this debate!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


For me too, that is the wonderful part of a true discussion... though I can't hardly believe some one hasn't 'flipped out' yet... and after 34-pages!


----------



## monomer

Jemma's Mum said:


> Catholics were the 1st Christians. I believe all christians were Catholic up until a few hundred years ago. The spilt-offs started with Henry 8th.
> 
> cheers,
> Lorraine


I love the little white puppy... is it still a puppy?


----------



## Jemma's Mum

Cam's Mom said:


> Irish catholics...defintely a cult!


No, just a way of life! good news though, we can opt out!

cheers


----------



## Lucky's mom

Well...everybody seems to agree and then the wrench gets thrown in. 

I don't think its healthy for marriage to be seen as a right. It serves a specific purpose for our society...and its main purpose is not to provide a human right for adults. Its to encourage the best situation for children. Mom and Dad have a proven track record for eons of societies. Likewise, I don't believe its smart to give co-habiting couples the same rights as those who marry. It might be wonderful for the adults but this encourages a situation for children that is not as good as a commited relationship. 

I do believe in civil unions.

I also believe that all sexual orientations are from a mixture of genetics, choice and environment.

I also believe that society should decide marriage through the democratic process, not judges. And I think it dangerous to say sexual orientation can't be discriminated against, because it opens legal doors to all sexual orientations or unions....

And none of this has anything to do with religion. To me its simply commonsense.


----------



## Jazzys Mom

monomer said:


> For me too, that is the wonderful part of a true discussion... though I can't hardly believe some one hasn't 'flipped out' yet... and after 34-pages!


Yeah, something like 334 posts and we're all still friends!

jazzys Mom


----------



## monomer

If you think that sexual orientation is by choice and environment then there is no room for discussion is there? People should simply choose otherwise, problem solved.

By genetics I'm assuming you mean homosexuals breed homosexuals... that's a bit trickier for some one to defend for quite obvious reasons.

Now by using the term marriage are you referring to a church sanctioned event and if so which churchs qualify... and if you are speaking only in the legal state-sponsored sense then you are right... let the voters decide! And lets hope it doesn't end in civil war such as the issue of slavery did... about another group (in the minority) who were discriminated against that many people didn't want legal doors opened to them either.


----------



## Jemma's Mum

monomer said:


> I love the little white puppy... is it still a puppy?


LOL No! Jemma will be 2 in January! Still white though!

cheers


----------



## monomer

Jemma's Mum said:


> LOL No! Jemma will be 2 in January! Still white though!
> 
> cheers


I love the puppy picture... keep it around.


----------



## Jemma's Mum

monomer said:


> I love the puppy picture... keep it around.


Slainte! I do too!:wave:


----------



## Lucky's mom

monomer said:


> If you think that sexual orientation is by choice and environment then there is no room for discussion is there? People should simply choose otherwise, problem solved.
> 
> By genetics I'm assuming you mean homosexuals breed homosexuals... that's a bit trickier for some one to defend for quite obvious reasons.
> 
> Now by using the term marriage are you referring to a church sanctioned event and if so which churchs qualify... and if you are speaking only in the legal sense then you are right... let the voters decide! And lets hope it doesn't end in civil war such as the issue of slavery did... about another group (in the minority) who were discriminated against that many people didn't want legal doors opened to them either.


OH no Monomer, when I say genetics, choice and environment I mean a combined mixture that we all have...some genetic factors might make homosexuality (or hetersexuality) seem more natural. As far as choice....sure its that to. I've heard many GLBT activists talk about choice..... I just can't ignore what I've heard myself from glbt activists.

I am speaking in a legal sense. I don't believe that gay marriage is harmful to children who live within it, but there are many sexual orientations and unions that might be harmful to children. And if we can't legally discriminate against one orientation then legally we can't discriminate against any. Which is why the democratic process should decide.


----------



## RickGibbs

Jazzys Mom said:


> Rick, thank you for posting that. It was beautiful. I just love Rich Mullins and so wish that God had not taken him at such a young age. His music is the best. He also recorded a song called *My Deliverer* which is one of my favorites!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I know that one too....that was the song that introduced me to Rich's music.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

I have a question for the Jewish members on our board. Please don't take offence, it's just an honest question...

If Jesus was Jewish, then how come Jewish people don't believe in/don't like Jesus now??


----------



## RickGibbs

GoldenLover84 said:


> If Jesus was Jewish, then how come Jewish people don't believe in/don't like Jesus now??


Jewish people do not believe that Jesus was the messiah...


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Well the reason gay pride is there, and doesn't bother me, is that gays have been killed, spit on, hated, degraded, etc for their sexuality. So yes, "we" have banded together to be proud of who we are instead of hiding in shame like many gays did for hundreds of years. That's the difference. 

Imagine if you'd had to hide your love/relationship with your husband because you knew you'd be fired from your job, disregarded by society, disowned by your family, and even risk being beaten or killed if anyone found out? Then imagine if you found a whole bunch more people hiding the same way, and could band together with them for support? That's what gays lived with for many many years. The end of that insanity is indeed cause to celebrate. And like many oppressed people (including blacks and other minorities) gays have banded together so they can feel "normal" and accepted and feel stronger as a group.

Gay pride events are about that- not about waving sexuality in your face. And yeah I have my little rainbow Pride wristband on, right next to my cure NF2 one. Why? Because I don't care who sees it and if just one scared young GLBT person or closeted GLBT person sees it and takes some comfort in knowing he or she is not alone, then it's more than worth it.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Marriage isn't about children to me- plenty of married couples (straight, I mean) don't have kids. Are they wrong too? Plenty of single people have kids that turn out just fine, and so do plenty of gays.


----------



## rosemary

i am single with a 20 year old daughter and a lesbian so marriage no thanks not in any shape form or description


----------



## tcww

Jemma's Mum said:


> Catholics were the 1st Christians. I believe all christians were Catholic up until a few hundred years ago. The spilt-offs started with Henry 8th.
> 
> cheers,
> Lorraine



In the sense that "catholic" also means universal, I would agree. However, the "Catholic" faith has evolved over time, and what it is today is significantly different than what started with Constantine.


----------



## tcww

GoldenLover84 said:


> I have a question for the Jewish members on our board. Please don't take offence, it's just an honest question...
> 
> If Jesus was Jewish, then how come Jewish people don't believe in/don't like Jesus now??


I'm not Jewish, but Jesus (at the time) did not fit the Jew's biblical interpretation of what the Messiah was supposed to be, ergo he was considered a rabble rouser who might cause the Roman occupiers to punish the Jews.

There have been many "Messiahs". None have been accepted.

Interestingly enough, there is a group called "Jews for Jesus", who do accept Jesus as the Messiah. There are probably others.


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Yes, I have met some of them. These are the Messianic (sp?) Jews. They do believe that Jesus is the Messiah. The Jewish faith as a whole does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, they are still waiting for the Messiah to come. I know many Messianic Jews - or Christian Jews as some call themselves. One of our best friends is a Christian Jew

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Emmysourgolden said:


> To us, we are born with original sin and it washes that away.


That makes sense to me...as does the outward sign that the parents are commiting to raise their child in a particular religion.

I was a Christian when I had Brenden and we did attend Christian churches...which he loved as children who believe are doted on and encouraged. He actually asked to be baptized at age 7 but I refused as I do not think an 7 year old has the background to make that decision and I feel dedicating yourself to God should be taken no less lightly then a marriage contract. I have always wanted Brenden to be open to all religions and beliefs and feel when he is older he will make the right decision for him....I do not want him to grow up with God or Jesus or etc) just because that is what he was taught. I do teach love, empathy and acceptance as I feel they are required to be a happy adult.

I am all for same sex marriage and adding children is fine with me as well. As long as both parents are open and loving- you can't go wrong regardless of the sex of the parents. I think that having feelings for a member of the same sex is just as natural as having feelings for members of the oppisite sex. As that is my belief...why would any God intentionally "set up" those he loved for failure? To me God is love and creation and harmony and feeling a oneness with your surroundings and a certain joy with the world around you...appreciation for what you have, who you know, nature and the energy of everything around you. To me God is peace and acceptance...of others and yourself.


----------



## Emmysourgolden

monomer said:


> If I believed in a God, my God wouldn't be an intolerant God... He would accept everyone into Heaven.
> 
> And about those un-baptized babies... I believe in the Catholic religion that un-baptized babies are supposed to go to some place called Limbo... No, I don't think any Latin music is playing there and babies aren't in line trying to go under a stick  But then again, I've been away from all the Dogma (aka mumbo-jumbo) for so long that maybe that was changed by some Pope recently... after all he is supposed to be God's representative here on earth, so he's got the power to do that kinda stuff. Whew, I'm glad I don't 'believe'... its too hard keeping up with all those rules and regulations and version up-dates and reinterpretations... its so much easier to just follow my own conscience.


Here, I found this.... Limbo, I've heard of that too. But any priest you talk to today laughs at the notion. But here's what I found searching.

"Vatican sources said it had concluded that all children who die do so in the expectation of “the universal salvation of God” and the “mediation of Christ”, whether baptised or not. 
The theologians’ finding is that God wishes all souls to be saved, and that the souls of unbaptised children are entrusted to a “merciful God” whose ways of ensuring salvation cannot be known. “In effect, this means that all children who die go to Heaven,” one source said."


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Rick, you mentioned Rich Mullins...love him. Have any of you heard of Travis Cottrell?? He tours with Beth Moore. I play his music all the time...LOVE IT! You can play his music off his website.
For any of you interested, go to
Travis Cottrell Online
Click to enter site
Down in left bottom corner click on "music" tab. 
The lists of his albums are there.
My favorite song is "In Christ Alone, with the Solid Rock"
Here are the lyrics so you can sing along....
*Lyrics:*
In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand

In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
‘Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him laid
Here in the death of Christ I live

There in the ground His body lay
Light of the world by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin’s curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ

No guilt of life, no fear of death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life’s first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
‘Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand


----------



## Pointgold

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well the reason gay pride is there, and doesn't bother me, is that gays have been killed, spit on, hated, degraded, etc for their sexuality. So yes, "we" have banded together to be proud of who we are instead of hiding in shame like many gays did for hundreds of years. That's the difference.
> 
> Imagine if you'd had to hide your love/relationship with your husband because you knew you'd be fired from your job, disregarded by society, disowned by your family, and even risk being beaten or killed if anyone found out? Then imagine if you found a whole bunch more people hiding the same way, and could band together with them for support? That's what gays lived with for many many years. The end of that insanity is indeed cause to celebrate. And like many oppressed people (including blacks and other minorities) gays have banded together so they can feel "normal" and accepted and feel stronger as a group.
> 
> Gay pride events are about that- not about waving sexuality in your face. And yeah I have my little rainbow Pride wristband on, right next to my cure NF2 one. Why? Because I don't care who sees it and if just one scared young GLBT person or closeted GLBT person sees it and takes some comfort in knowing he or she is not alone, then it's more than worth it.


I do not believe that anyone should have to hide their "love/relationship", and obviously, either did my father, which is why he ultimately came "out". However, once "out", it was a non-issue, for lack of a better term. There was no parading it around or making **** sure that everyone knew. He was a very classy and dignified man, a brilliant, creative mind, and for him, his sexual preference was not so much about the sex as it was about being able to be with the person he loved - male or female. The rest was private and intimate, as I believe it should be no matter your preference. I also believe that people would be more accepting and understanding of the "alternative" lifestyles if they were not having it so flagrantly publicized, and have talked to many gay friends who feel that the "radical" (again, for lack of a better word) gay and lesbian community, by bringing more attention to themselves do make it more difficult for those who wish to lead their lives quietly and privately (and this does not mean in the closet).


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Emmysourgolden said:


> Rick, you mentioned Rich Mullins...love him. Have any of you heard of Travis Cottrell?? He tours with Beth Moore. I play his music all the time...LOVE IT! You can play his music off his website.
> For any of you interested, go to
> Travis Cottrell Online
> Click to enter site
> Down in left bottom corner click on "music" tab.
> The lists of his albums are there.
> My favorite song is "In Christ Alone, with the Solid Rock"
> Here are the lyrics so you can sing along....
> *Lyrics:*
> In Christ alone my hope is found
> He is my light, my strength, my song
> This Cornerstone, this solid ground
> Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
> What heights of love, what depths of peace
> When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
> My Comforter, my All in All
> Here in the love of Christ I stand
> 
> In Christ alone, who took on flesh
> Fullness of God in helpless babe
> This gift of love and righteousness
> Scorned by the ones He came to save
> ‘Til on that cross as Jesus died
> The wrath of God was satisfied
> For every sin on Him laid
> Here in the death of Christ I live
> 
> There in the ground His body lay
> Light of the world by darkness slain
> Then bursting forth in glorious Day
> Up from the grave He rose again
> And as He stands in victory
> Sin’s curse has lost its grip on me
> For I am His and He is mine
> Bought with the precious blood of Christ
> 
> No guilt of life, no fear of death
> This is the power of Christ in me
> From life’s first cry to final breath
> Jesus commands my destiny
> No power of hell, no scheme of man
> Can ever pluck me from His hand
> ‘Til He returns or calls me home
> Here in the power of Christ I’ll stand


Oh WOW! I had not heard him before. He's really good. I've bookmarked his site.

Love his I Am A Friend Of God song! Love that song anyway.

I have done some of Beth Moore's bible studies. She is awesome!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Jazzys Mom said:


> Oh WOW! I had not heard him before. He's really good. I've bookmarked his site.
> 
> Love his I Am A Friend Of God song! Love that song anyway.
> 
> I have done some of Beth Moore's bible studies. She is awesome!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I know I love her!! Have you been to one of her talks??? Incredible!! Especially because Travis plays at all of them.

Play "Made Me Glad"...I love that one too!!


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Who am I kidding...I love all his songs! You can just leave the website up and it'll play his music continously. I do that when I'm cleaning...put the speakers on full blast. The boys and I rock out to him! They love "In the Sanctuary" So play that one too!


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

Ok here's what my dad relied to me with on the Baptism question. The difference between infant and believer baptism. 

Infant baptism is a reflection of God's relationship with His people. Back in the Old Testament, with Abraham, God made a covenant with Abraham that He would be Abraham's God and that Abraham and those who followed should mark the males by the act of circumcision, so that every time they peed, they would reminded that God was their God and they were His people. This covenant act took place when the boy was 8 days old. Did he have a choice in the matter? Did he have to opportunity to say to anyone that he did not believe or did believe? Of course not. He was part of the covenant people by birth. Did that mean that all who were circumcised remained part of the group of believers? Of course not. Just read the Old Testament.
Now for baptism. Those who believe in infant baptism believe that baptism took the place of circumcision. The same applies, the child has no choice, he or she is simply marked with the sign of the covenant God has made with His people. Does that mean that he or she will automatically stay in the covenant relationship with God? Of course not. As with the Old Testament believers, there comes a time when the individual has to make his or her own stance before God. That can take place at a Profession of Faith, another baptism (believers) or some other ceremony. For the Jewish believer, this takes place at the barmitzvah or batmitzvah.
The important thing to remember in all of this is that God is the initiator of it all. He is the one who chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. He is the one who saw things were so bad that He sent His only Son to die for our salvation. He is the one who sends the Holy Spirit to soften our hearts so that we accept this great salvation. He is the one who will bring it all to completion on that last day when we stand before Him complete.
A really short explanation. If you want more, I can write more. Look up infant baptism on the internet and looked for the Reformed perspective.

Dad


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Ok here's what my dad relied to me with on the Baptism question. The difference between infant and believer baptism.
> 
> Infant baptism is a reflection of God's relationship with His people. Back in the Old Testament, with Abraham, God made a covenant with Abraham that He would be Abraham's God and that Abraham and those who followed should mark the males by the act of circumcision, so that every time they peed, they would reminded that God was their God and they were His people. This covenant act took place when the boy was 8 days old. Did he have a choice in the matter? Did he have to opportunity to say to anyone that he did not believe or did believe? Of course not. He was part of the covenant people by birth. Did that mean that all who were circumcised remained part of the group of believers? Of course not. Just read the Old Testament.
> Now for baptism. Those who believe in infant baptism believe that baptism took the place of circumcision. The same applies, the child has no choice, he or she is simply marked with the sign of the covenant God has made with His people. Does that mean that he or she will automatically stay in the covenant relationship with God? Of course not. As with the Old Testament believers, there comes a time when the individual has to make his or her own stance before God. That can take place at a Profession of Faith, another baptism (believers) or some other ceremony. For the Jewish believer, this takes place at the barmitzvah or batmitzvah.
> The important thing to remember in all of this is that God is the initiator of it all. He is the one who chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. He is the one who saw things were so bad that He sent His only Son to die for our salvation. He is the one who sends the Holy Spirit to soften our hearts so that we accept this great salvation. He is the one who will bring it all to completion on that last day when we stand before Him complete.
> A really short explanation. If you want more, I can write more. Look up infant baptism on the internet and looked for the Reformed perspective.
> 
> Dad


 
Awwwe, you have a great Dad!!!


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Emmysourgolden said:


> Awwwe, you have a great Dad!!!


I agree - your is amazing


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

Thanks guys.... I agree!


----------



## Emmysourgolden

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Thanks guys.... I agree!


So how did you turn out so rotten?????


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

Emmysourgolden said:


> So how did you turn out so rotten?????


awww....c'mon!!  

But really my parents are awesome...I couldn't ask for better!!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

I do see what you're saying PG but my point is, for years and years, gays were literally shunned from society, attacked, etc. Gay Pride is just a result of that. It's not like one day a bunch of gays decided to host a parade just to shove gayness in the face of the world. It's all about embracing who you are, being okay with it, and showing the world that there's lots of us, and we won't ever be treated with such abuse again. Not everyone wants to attend, and that's totally fine. But I definitely, personally, understand the reasoning behind pride events.


----------



## RickGibbs

Emmysourgolden said:


> So how did you turn out so rotten?????


I've often wondered the same thing.....


----------



## RickGibbs

Emmysourgolden said:


> For any of you interested, go to
> Travis Cottrell Online


I've got the page open now.....from what I hear so far, I like the sound....

Another favorite of mine is Mitch McVicker....he was in the vehicle with Rich the night he was killed.... But I love his music too....

Mitch McVicker


----------



## Jazzys Mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I do see what you're saying PG but my point is, for years and years, gays were literally shunned from society, attacked, etc. Gay Pride is just a result of that. It's not like one day a bunch of gays decided to host a parade just to shove gayness in the face of the world. It's all about embracing who you are, being okay with it, and showing the world that there's lots of us, and we won't ever be treated with such abuse again. Not everyone wants to attend, and that's totally fine. But I definitely, personally, understand the reasoning behind pride events.


You are right Jenna, gays have been shunned, attacked, laughed at and picked on by people. BUT ---- it was people that have done this, not God. I'm sure it doesn't make God at all happy to see society shun ANY of his creation. After all He has made all of us and wants nothing but the best for us all. Now maybe this is crazy but I have often thought that maybe God made gay people, minorities, retarded people and the like to see how society would treat them. God says we are not to judge anyone and the more that His word is out there for all to read and hear then maybe there won't be as many judgemental people in the world. Right now I can almost hear God's tears. He loves you Jenna, as he does me and everyone. He only wants us to treat each other as He treats us. So, no God is not happy about how gay people are treated.

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Emmysourgolden said:


> I know I love her!! Have you been to one of her talks??? Incredible!! Especially because Travis plays at all of them.
> 
> Play "Made Me Glad"...I love that one too!!


 
I've not been to one of her talks but sure would like to! Her Bible studies are awesome!

Rick ---- Mitch McVicker is great too. I didn't know he was with Rich when he was in the accident. Obviously he wasn't hurt too bad in it himself

Jazzys Mom


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Oh no I never thought the gay pride part of this discussion had anything to do with believing in God or not, or thinking God is to blame (if he does exist). My point was just that gay pride is NOT about a bunch of nelly drag queens in fabulous clothes (although that's MY favorite part  along with the ***** on bikes of course). It's about a group of people banded together saying- "We are who we are, we are everywhere, we're not going away, and we're not going to be ashamed of who we love and what we are!!!!" after decades of abuse from society. Stength in numbers... nothing beats finding like minded people who know your pain and can support you and understand you, no matter what the topic is. IMO if gays had never been oppressed, there wouldn't be gay pride parades, because events like Stonewall never would have happened, and neighborhoods like the Castro where gays could live together and feel safe never would have developed or been necessary.


----------



## RickGibbs

Jazzys Mom said:


> Rick ---- Mitch McVicker is great too. I didn't know he was with Rich when he was in the accident. Obviously he wasn't hurt too bad in it himself


He had voice issues for quite awhile after the accident.... It took him some time to recover. Not to mention losing a good friend...


----------



## Jazzys Mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Oh no I never thought the gay pride part of this discussion had anything to do with believing in God or not, or thinking God is to blame (if he does exist). My point was just that gay pride is NOT about a bunch of nelly drag queens in fabulous clothes (although that's MY favorite part  along with the ***** on bikes of course). It's about a group of people banded together saying- "We are who we are, we are everywhere, we're not going away, and we're not going to be ashamed of who we love and what we are!!!!" after decades of abuse from society. Stength in numbers... nothing beats finding like minded people who know your pain and can support you and understand you, no matter what the topic is. *IMO if gays had never been oppressed, there wouldn't be gay pride parades, because events like Stonewall never would have happened, and neighborhoods like the Castro where gays could live together and feel safe never would have developed or been necessary*.


You are absolutely right!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Sunshine Goldens

tcww said:


> What's the difference between a Catholic and a Christian??????


Guilt and gilding.


----------



## Sunshine Goldens

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Jeremy I want to tell you how much your way of expressing yourself impresses me- not at all rude, or judging- and you are truly thinking, considering, and having an open mind. Much appreciated!
> 
> I have NO problem with a personal belief that homosexuality is wrong.
> 
> I have a problem with people using that to make a law that denies us basic rights as human beings.


I have to admit I bristle when I read someone believes homosexuality is _wrong. _Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong...but calling a person's sexuality wrong to me just feels, well WRONG! LOL!  I think there is a difference between thinking it's wrong and thinking it's wrong for you (like Rick said...except for his lust for Jeremy of course).

And Jeremy - I think you're great - I admire your sweetness and dedication to your religion. This post in NO WAY is directed at you as an insult. Just felt like I had to be honest...

Oh and KUDOS to everyone here...this has to be one of the most intelligent and well-done discussions of religion I have ever seen. Now if GRF ruled the world I think it would be a MUCH better place!!!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

As a **** I totally agree with what you're saying LOL but I don't condemn someone for personally think it's wrong, if they believe their Bible tells them it is. BUT (and this is a big BUT) that belief better not spill out into their treatment of another person! 

Do I think it's ridiculous? Personally, yes, how can it be wrong? But I can respect that someone who believes that version of the bible can feel that homosexual acts are a sin.


----------



## Sunshine Goldens

AquaClaraCanines said:


> As a **** I totally agree with what you're saying LOL but I don't condemn someone for personally think it's wrong, if they believe their Bible tells them it is. BUT (and this is a big BUT) that belief better not spill out into their treatment of another person!
> 
> Do I think it's ridiculous? Personally, yes, how can it be wrong? But I can respect that someone who believes that version of the bible can feel that homosexual acts are a sin.


I wouldn't condemn them either...but it still feels icky. And BTW...I laughed out loud reading you calling yourself a "****"!! I'm tired and goofy...and you totally made me laugh!!!


----------



## monomer

Pointgold said:


> ...and have talked to many gay friends who feel that the "radical" (again, for lack of a better word) gay and lesbian community, by bringing more attention to themselves do make it more difficult for those who wish to lead their lives quietly and privately (and this does not mean in the closet).


How about the word "flamboyant"? I think every segment of society has its exhibitionists, attention seekers, whose main ambition in life to be as outrageously provocative as they can possibly be... Hopefully you'd think most people would understand this... but I guess the gay community has been so misunderstood in the past maybe instinctively different rules are used to judge them by... thus stereo-typing leads to the confusion.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

The point of gay PRIDE is to be a bit over the top- but I've explained my views on that three times now LOL


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

hahaha ****, yeah actually I was just abbreviating homosexual bc I'm lazy but HA it does sound funny


----------



## Kirby'sMom

Jazzys Mom said:


> Oh WOW! I had not heard him before. He's really good. I've bookmarked his site.
> 
> Love his I Am A Friend Of God song! Love that song anyway.
> 
> I have done some of Beth Moore's bible studies. She is awesome!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


We're doing a Beth Moore study right now and you're right, she is awesome!! We do a different one every year.


----------



## Kirby'sMom

Jazzys Mom said:


> monomer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get it... I probably wasn't paying enough attention but I really thought someone said earlier that homosexuals couldn't get into heaven? Maybe that was the rules in some other church, I have a hard time distinguishing which rules belong to which church and who on the forum belongs to which church etc. and if they can't get into heaven but won't go to hell then where do they go? I'm really confused here *...BTW, which church does this Rich fellow belong to? ...abortionists can get into heaven too? That's great news! So far, I like his church...[/*quote]
> 
> Rich Mullins was killed some years back ---- in the '90's. He was a wonderful Christian musician. So, yes, he was a Christian ---- and still is, just praising God in Heaven now instead of here on earth.
> 
> Abortionists, murderers, rapists ------ will be in heaven ----IF they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Now, some will ask if this gives a person the liberty to killand rape. No, it doesn't but what you do in this life doesn't send you to hell or get you into heaven. Its only believing in Jesus that can do that
> 
> Jazzys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> That's right! If a murder, for example, accepts Jesus as his saviour before he dies, he'll be in heaven, regardless of his past sin because, Jesus has forgiven and erased his sin. In God's eyes, there are no degrees in sin. We are all sinners and all need the Lord.
Click to expand...


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## Kirby'sMom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Yeah imagine being dunked in water determining whether or not you burn in hell for eternity- now that is truly out there IMO


Baptism is an outward demonstration of someone's faith in Christ. It doesn't "save" a person. And babies were not baptized anywhere in the Bible, only adults who had professed their faith in Christ.


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## Kirby'sMom

Jazzys Mom said:


> Does your dad BAPTIZE babies or DEDICATE them back to God? Our church dedicates babies back to God, as they are God's children anyway. Baptism is something that is not done until the child can decide for himself
> 
> Jazzys Mom


That's what we do. My husband and I dedicated Dustin to Jesus as a baby, but that didn't "save" him as he only can make that choice, and did by the way at a 4 years old. He prayed to receive the Lord as His saviour here at home.


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## Kirby'sMom

I didn't mean to hog the last few posts!! I was just responding as I was trying to catch up on this thread!! I am glad y'all are being kind and aren't bashing anyone here. We should be able to discuss without fear of attack!!


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## Cam's Mom

> and did by the way at a 4 years old. He prayed to receive the Lord as His saviour here at home.


That is about the saddest thing I've read so far on this debate...apart from a VERY FEW extremely exceptional individuals, children generally do not have the neurological ability to understand the abstract arguments needed to debate if god exists or not, let alone if they can commit their lives to him before about 3rd or 4th grade. Even then their abilities are rudimentary.


----------



## RickGibbs

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Guilt and gilding.


Okay....that one made me laugh....


----------



## RickGibbs

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Oh and KUDOS to everyone here...this has to be one of the most intelligent and well-done discussions of religion I have ever seen. Now if GRF ruled the world I think it would be a MUCH better place!!!


Unfortunately, we don't use the same tact in a lot of other debates....


----------



## Sunshine Goldens

RickGibbs said:


> Unfortunately, we don't use the same tact in a lot of other debates....


Awww...now what are you trying to say?? That we can debate religion peacefully but start talking dog food and the gloves are off?? LOL! We are one interesting bunch!


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## AquaClaraCanines

I know isn't that funny???


----------



## Sunshine Goldens

RickGibbs said:


> Okay....that one made me laugh....


I know newer Catholic churches are moving away from the bling bling a bit...but you can't dispute the vast collection of golden treasures the Vatican has in its possession. That has always felt like major hipocrisy to me.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

I know nothing about Catholic tradition, but I attended a Catholic wedding once. While beautiful, it was the most boring, depressing wedding I have ever attended. It dragged on for hours, no one was smiling or happy, and it was all loooong ritual and boring speeches.


----------



## Emmysourgolden

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I know nothing about Catholic tradition, but I attended a Catholic wedding once. While beautiful, it was the most boring, depressing wedding I have ever attended. It dragged on for hours, no one was smiling or happy, and it was all loooong ritual and boring speeches.


The length of the Catholic wedding is really dependant on the bride and groom. You can add as much stuff as you like. I had a catholic wedding and it ran just under an hour BUT I had A LOT OF MUSIC!! I love music. You can add unity candles, sign of peace going around and kissing everyone alot of things that add a lot of time. If I didn't have as much music we would have been out of there in probably 45 minutes. We had full mass and everything. The fact that no one was smiling or happy, that was ME at my sisters wedding because she's married a loser. My wedding and my sisters' wedding, other sisters that is....beautiful. My buddy, who is a priest had mine and it was very jovial and laid back yet meaningful which I think it should be. ACC, I'm sure you would love you come watch my wedding video...we'll have popcorn...:bowl:


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Her dress was GORGEOUS and the church was beautiful- but whoa... snore time! Maybe she was marrying a loser! LOL Everyone looked pissed. I didn't know them. I went as a date of a friend of the groom! LOL I love music too, music would have definitely helped this one.


----------



## Misslane&lois

I post others, because I'm wiccan!


----------



## monomer

Misslane&lois said:


> I post others, because I'm wiccan!


Alright, this is witches, right? Worshiping nature? Please tell us more... I've only recently become aware of such religions and am quite curious as to what some of them have to offer... so many others have represented their belief systems, I, for one, would like to learn about yours as well...


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## AquaClaraCanines

Wicca delights me and I have tried a few basic Wiccan rituals. I have books to study it. But I do have questions. I do NOT believe in any traditional god, so I have a hard time with the god part of Wicca, and would like to know more how Wiccans define "god"


----------



## Farley Rocks!

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Wicca delights me and I have tried a few basic Wiccan rituals. I have books to study it. But I do have questions. I do NOT believe in any traditional god, so I have a hard time with the god part of Wicca, and would like to know more how Wiccans define "god"


I think that depends on the Wiccan. My guy looked into the Wiccan religion and is now Pagan but they had Mother Earth and Father Sky. Out of the other Wiccans I have met some claim to be Christians, some athiest, and some have many Gods (most common in my experiance). The ideas are varied and diverse but not all believe in any divine power.


----------



## monomer

So it would appear that Wiccan is denominational... like the way Christians are denominational... however I believe I do understand the common basis for all Christian religions (based on the belief of Jesus Christ as the savior for all mankind)... so what is the common basis used to bind all denominations of Wiccans? Anyone? It appears Misslane&lois doesn't wish to discuss her beliefs beyond a briefest mention of her chosen faith (or maybe she hasn't yet come back to the thread)... so if anyone has some knowledge of this religion, could you share?


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

MissLane is on holiday with no interent access and I believe just had a few minutes online in a cyber cafe...  She may come back.


----------



## kezia14

Come on !!! 
Come on !!!
Come on !!!
Come on !!!

3 more thread i got 400 relpiers therad !!!!

Ha ha ha !!!


----------



## RickGibbs

kezia14 said:


> Come on !!!
> Come on !!!
> Come on !!!
> Come on !!!
> 
> 3 more thread i got 400 relpiers therad !!!!
> 
> Ha ha ha !!!


lol....yep, you opened up quite the conversation...


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Cam's Mom said:


> That is about the saddest thing I've read so far on this debate...apart from a VERY FEW extremely exceptional individuals, children generally do not have the neurological ability to understand the abstract arguments needed to debate if god exists or not, let alone if they can commit their lives to him before about 3rd or 4th grade. Even then their abilities are rudimentary.


Why do you find this sad? You obviously do not understand the Christian faith. Most 4 year olds that have been raised since birth in the Christian church and has practiced praying at home with their parents and been told and read Bible teachings has the knowledge to accept Jesus as their Lord. Our faith is very simple ------ Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross to cover you sins? Do you believe that Jesus did indeed die on the cross? Do you believe that Jesus was ressurected 3 days later? Do you accept Jesus as the Lord and savior of your life and promise to live your life for him?

Not a hard thing to understand! I have taught 3 and 4 yr olds for the past few years and I would say at least 50 to 75% of them have the knowledge and abilities to make that decision. The Christian faith is not in any way abstract nor do most of these children have rudimentary abilities. My granddaughter was about 8 when she accepted Jesus and made her decision to be baptized.

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines

I think it is possible for a guided and taught child to make that choice with a parent or teacher, but I don't think it will always stick when he is able to explore other options and make his own decision. Not to say it never does! Of course it does. But I doubt always.


----------



## Kirby'sMom

Well, my son is now 18 and his faith is still strong! In fact, he just walked by the computer and said to tell you it's stronger than ever. Now, he probably understands more than he did at 4, but he says he remembers knowing that he needed to believe that Jesus died and rose again for him and that he wanted to ask Jesus into his heart. He remembers it! Looking back at my own faith, I prayed to receive Jesus as my saviour when I was 6 and asked to be baptized at 7. I remember it clearly. So, you can't say children are too young and that they don't understand. Oh, and Dustin wants me to add this, that he doesn't "believe" in religion, but in Christ. There's a difference, he said.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Oh yeah I am not saying that it's not possible!!! Of course it is 

I agree with him there is definitely ABSOLUTELY a difference... between Christ and religion. I know many Christians I respect (even though I don't believe) who despise organized religion. What matters to them is their relationship with Christ.


----------



## Jazzys Mom

Kirby'sMom said:


> Well, my son is now 18 and his faith is still strong! In fact, he just walked by the computer and said to tell you it's stronger than ever. Now, he probably understands more than he did at 4, but he says he remembers knowing that he needed to believe that Jesus died and rose again for him and that he wanted to ask Jesus into his heart. He remembers it! Looking back at my own faith, I prayed to receive Jesus as my saviour when I was 6 and asked to be baptized at 7. I remember it clearly. So, you can't say children are too young and that they don't understand. Oh, and Dustin wants me to add this, that *he doesn't "believe" in religion, but in Christ. There's a difference*, he said.


What a wonderful young man you have there! See, that's what I was saying - if the child is taught well and is raised in the Christian faith they very rarely depart from it!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Jazzys Mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Oh yeah I am not saying that it's not possible!!! Of course it is
> 
> I agree with him there is definitely ABSOLUTELY a difference... between Christ and religion. I know many Christians I respect (even though I don't believe) who despise organized religion. What matters to them is their relationship with Christ.


 
You've got it Jenna! We'll convert you yet!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Ha I seem better versed in Christianity than plenty of Christians I have met- years of Christian school!

I would believe- if I believed in supernatural things... lol prove god to me and you got it.


----------



## rosemary

sorry they do over my dead body will i ever return to religion it has done nothing for me except screw up my life i was dragged up a baptist and resent every hour i had to spend in the company of so called christains and the hell fire and damnation of life and all in the name of the lord so oh yeah i turned by back at the age of 12 and will continue to do so i refuse to let religion screw my life up any further than it already did


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

While I could in reality (and would if proven) believe in some form of a god, maybe, with proof, I could not and would not take the Bible as true full stop. I am more inclined towards Wicca, if anything.


----------



## K.J.

I'm an Agnostic. Religion takes up very little of my life, and if anyone ever tries to get me to become religious I ignore them.


----------



## rosemary

K.J. said:


> I'm an Agnostic. Religion takes up very little of my life, and if anyone ever tries to get me to become religious I ignore them.


i love it when these creeps turn up and preach at me on my doorstep usual comment is if your religion is so good you shouldnt have to ram it down my throat i usually end up being rude to them and as they are on my doorstep theres not a lot they can say about it really


----------



## Jazzys Mom

I am a Christian and deeply love my God and his word, but-------- I hate to have so called Christians come to my door and preach to me. I usually end up getting into a debate with them and find out they really don't know what they are talking about! Yesterday I was downtown with my daughter and 2 granddaughters. We were walking down a street and at a corner there were some so-called "street preachers" handing out tracks. My granddaughter was saying something to US and this guy thought she said something to HIM and he started yelling at her and saying (screaming) Jesus is the way! Well, I know that and so does she but we sure didn't need this idiot screaming it at us! These type of people run people AWAY from Christianity not lead them to it!

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Lucky's mom

I get mormans and jehovah witnesses at my door step. I simply say I'm not interested and ask them to stay safe.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Jazzys Mom said:


> I am a Christian and deeply love my God and his word, but-------- I hate to have so called Christians come to my door and preach to me. I usually end up getting into a debate with them and find out they really don't know what they are talking about! Yesterday I was downtown with my daughter and 2 granddaughters. We were walking down a street and at a corner there were some so-called "street preachers" handing out tracks. My granddaughter was saying something to US and this guy thought she said something to HIM and he started yelling at her and saying (screaming) Jesus is the way! Well, I know that and so does she but we sure didn't need this idiot screaming it at us! These type of people run people AWAY from Christianity not lead them to it!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


We had one of those screamers in downtown Tulsa......at least once a week this guy would be screaming out about damnation. I think he was a homeless person or perhaps mentally ill.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

We have one of those here, too, but he sings beautifully


----------



## Jazzys Mom

We get all kinds on the downtown streets. Sitting right in front of one of the stores yesterday were these 3 guys playing drums. But, their drums were those 5 gallon painters buckets! Boy, were they good too! I could have stood there longer listening to them

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Misslane&lois

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Wicca delights me and I have tried a few basic Wiccan rituals. I have books to study it. But I do have questions. I do NOT believe in any traditional god, so I have a hard time with the god part of Wicca, and would like to know more how Wiccans define "god"


The god for us.. well, we have 2 "gods".. the moon and the sun and all the religion is based on Energy from the sun, the moon, the earth, the trees, animals, flowers... from everything.
We love nature

I love wicca, and when you read about it you realise that other religions are based in pagan religion or rituals, such as Christmas (Yule in wicca). 
the people who believe in Jesus , well.. I respect all religions, first of all, but few priests told me that Jesus was born on February and they copied the pagan religion and because of it all catholic people celebrate xmas in december.

We celebrate our celebrations (beltane, yule...) with rituals (such as catholicism celebrate baptism, weddings...) and after the ritual we eat the food and drink what we have bring for the ritual.
Its very beautiful.

However, movies exaggerate wicca hehehe, and we don't sacrifice anything hehehe!


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Misslane&lois said:


> I love wicca, and when you read about it you realise that other religions are based in pagan religion or rituals, such as Christmas (Yule in wicca).
> the people who believe in Jesus , well.. I respect all religions, first of all, but few priests told me that Jesus was born on February and they copied the pagan religion and because of it all catholic people celebrate xmas in december.
> quote]
> 
> Grandma told me she was mad because other religions were always trying to steal Christmas from the Christians :bowl: She forgets it was already borrowed!!


----------



## Carsonsdaddy

Farley Rocks! said:


> Misslane&lois said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love wicca, and when you read about it you realise that other religions are based in pagan religion or rituals, such as Christmas (Yule in wicca).
> the people who believe in Jesus , well.. I respect all religions, first of all, but few priests told me that Jesus was born on February and they copied the pagan religion and because of it all catholic people celebrate xmas in december.
> 
> 
> 
> Grandma told me she was mad because other religions were always trying to steal Christmas from the Christians :bowl: She forgets it was already borrowed!!
Click to expand...

I knew that!!


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## Jazzys Mom

Farley Rocks! said:


> Misslane&lois said:
> 
> 
> 
> I love wicca, and when you read about it you realise that other religions are based in pagan religion or rituals, such as Christmas (Yule in wicca).
> the people who believe in Jesus , well.. I respect all religions, first of all, but few priests told me that Jesus was born on February and they copied the pagan religion and because of it all catholic people celebrate xmas in december.
> quote]
> 
> Grandma told me she was mad because other religions were always trying to steal Christmas from the Christians :bowl: She forgets it was already borrowed!!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the Christians first celebrated Christmas at the time of the "yule" to bring Jesus into the pagan yule holiday. They thought by bringing Jesus into it the holiday would have meaning other than food, drink and parties. I do know that Jesus was not born in December but don't know the actual birthdate of Jesus. The Christmas holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus is only about 200 or so years old
> 
> Jazzys Mom
Click to expand...


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Kinky Friedman, who ran for governor in Texas, and has quite a "colorful" history had a musical group and one of their "hits" was ...... "They're not Making Jews like Jesus Anymore". Hope this doesn't offend anyone..........I just thought it hilarious.


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## Farley Rocks!

Jazzys Mom said:


> Farley Rocks! said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the Christians first celebrated Christmas at the time of the "yule" to bring Jesus into the pagan yule holiday. They thought by bringing Jesus into it the holiday would have meaning other than food, drink and parties. I do know that Jesus was not born in December but don't know the actual birthdate of Jesus. The Christmas holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus is only about 200 or so years old
> 
> Jazzys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> The Son/The Sun God...the celebration has been around almost as long as time itself  Jesus was not born in December...If I recall correctly it was September or October...I knew it once...But I forget.
Click to expand...


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## AquaClaraCanines

I could handle that- my own views are of a life force (energy, like from the sun) that makes all life "alive" but it sure has nothing to do with "God" in my view.


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## Jazzys Mom

Ok, I'm gonna risk throwing this out there.

If you don't believe in God then how do you think humans came about? The human body is so intricate that only God could have made it.

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines

IMO the intricacy of the human body is PROOF there's no such thing as a God... ironic, eh? LOL the world around me is PROOF of no god... no way could any being poof make this. I firmly believe in evolution. It's all around us every day.


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## Lucky's mom

One of the things that hit me recently is the renewing and replenishing of water .....the substance we absolutely need to survive. A substance of no known origin. We can pollute it, poisen it, abuse it...but through evaporation the earth will always have a constant renewable source of water, albiet not in the same place..... 

And then you have the earth renewing through decay. 

Its not just one design....its a million designs that to me, obviously has a purpose beyond pure chance. 

But it seems to start with our building blocks. It might be reasonable to assume that water can accidently arrive or exist...but for it to behave in such a perfect form of renewal...in collaboration with the renewal of our soil.....seems a little too remarkable for chance.


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## Lucky's mom

That wasn't directed at you acc....I just wanted to talk....


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## Jazzys Mom

See, imo the intricacies of the human body is absolute proof there is a God. God is not a being nor is He human. God is just GOD and His ways are not our ways. There are so many things that we don't understand with our finite brains. IMO a "bang" could not have made a flower, a bird, a deer, a human being, water with the tides and an earth that if it moved an inth of an inch off its present axis would cease to exist. The world and the way it is is proof to me that there is a God. That and the fact that the Bible tells me so too

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines

Lucky's Mom, please, keep talking! I think it's interesting.

I think water evaporating is quite a simple thing and easily explained by science. 

A bang didn't make a deer or a man, it made a planet in the right location, out of millions of infinite planets and galaxies, with the right conditions to start the beginnings of "life" in the form of some prehistoric, far from spectacular baceria or other primitive life form. 

BTW this is in a friendly tone- this topic delights me!


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## Jazzys Mom

Oh yes, this is all just friendly talk! I enjoy hearing what others think even though their ideas may not agree with my ideas.

So, Jenna do you think we all came from prehistoric sludge as it says in the Big Bang Theory? Then how would you explain how intricate the human body is and how it works. That cannot be by chance.

I agree totally about water. It evaporates, it gets polluted, poisoned, dumped in, oil slicks form and yet it rejuvenates itself. It just couldn't do that unless directed by God

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines

Yes I do!  And I don't think we're all that advanced LOL

I do think it is chance. There's a pretty big universe out there...

I don't think we're all that special.

Even the first life, simple life, was intricate in it's own way, as are many inanimate objects. It takes little to no effort on my part to imagine how the simplest life forms could advance to a mammal over millions of years. I don't think we are any more intricate than any other mammal. Less so than some.

One thing we can all agree on? The cockroach was here first, and will be here after...


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## Sunshine Goldens

Jazzys Mom said:


> See, imo the intricacies of the human body is absolute proof there is a God. God is not a being nor is He human. God is just GOD and His ways are not our ways. There are so many things that we don't understand with our finite brains. IMO a "bang" could not have made a flower, a bird, a deer, a human being, water with the tides and an earth that if it moved an inth of an inch off its present axis would cease to exist. The world and the way it is is proof to me that there is a God. That and the fact that the Bible tells me so too
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I think though of things like the appendix...which none of us needs. Or eyebrows...those are things that have over time evolved into what they are today. Human beings from different continents have bodies that evolved in accordance with the climates of those regions. 

A bang didn't make those things - but it did create an environment in which the primordial soup could exist. From that we get the slow but steady cellular evolution into the various living things.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Exactly.......


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## Sunshine Goldens

Water doesn't renew itself. Water is created when hydrogen and oxygen combine. I found this study guide online which explains it:

Like all matter, water is constantly cycled through ecosystems. This compound comprises nearly 70 percent of our bodies and is used in many of our chemical reactions. The oceans contain about 97 percent of the world's water. The remainder is fresh water that is in the form of gas (vapor), liquid, or ice. Seventy five percent of this water is frozen in glaciers and in ice in the polar regions. Only about 1 percent of the earth's water is available as fresh, liquid water.
Much of this fresh, liquid water is found in the ground in rock and soil layers. The zone in the earth that contains water saturated soil and/or rocks is known as an aquifer. The upper surface of an aquifer is known as the water table. The remainder of our fresh water is found in the surface water of lakes, rivers, and ponds, and in the bodies of organisms.

*The Components of the Water Cycle *

The movement of water into the atmosphere--molecules of water, like molecules of all liquids, are in constant motion.
Because of this, what happens to these molecules? 
They collide with each other, causing them to move to a less crowded area.
What is the movement of particles from a crowded to a less crowded area called? 
Diffusion. When water diffuses from the soil or from a body of water, it changes from a liquid to a gas form.
What is this diffusion of water called? 
Evaporation. Water is also released from the bodies of organisms and evaporates into the atmosphere.
In what ways do animals release water? 
Excretion, exhaling, and perspiration
Where is water released from plants? 
Mostly from microscopic pores in their leaves
What is transpiration? 
The evaporation of water from pores of plants
*The Formation of Clouds*

As water diffuses into the atmosphere, it will become cooler. Also, the air molecules and tiny dirt particles it mixes with will become increasingly farther apart. (The air pressure decreases.) The presence of

water molecules
dirt particles, also known as condensation particles

a decrease in air pressure

a decrease in air temperature result in condensation

What is condensation? 
Process whereby water changes from a gas to a liquid. As they condense, the water molecules attach themselves to nearby condensation (dirt) particles. The result is a cloud droplet. Many, many of these droplets form a cloud.
*Precipitation*

Eventually the clouds become heavy with water.
What is precipitation? 
Water in clouds falling to the earth as rain, snow, sleet, or hail.
Explain what becomes of the precipitation? It may seep into the soil and become part of the ground water (aquifer). Much of the water enters the roots of plants. Some enters into the cells of microscopic organisms, and some enters the bodies of animals when they drink water or when they eat other animals. Some of the water moves along the surface in rivers and streams.
What is this water flow along the surface called? 
Runoff
What becomes of this water? 
It enters various bodies of water.
If water is constantly cycled, why do we need to conserve water? 
The water we fail to conserve will. over time. pass through the cycle and return to the earth in some form of precipitation, but it may return many. many miles away. Also, water pollution is still a problem: therefore, it is wise to conserve water that is safe to drink. This completes the water cycle.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Water doesn't renew itself. Water is created when hydrogen and oxygen combine. I found this study guide online which explains it:


Ahhhh I suppose purifying and sustaining itself as a usable form for our planet might have been a better way to say it. 

We won't run out of water. This earth will always have it until there is no need for it. 

The water from the beginning of the earth is what is here today. No more and no less. New water is not created to sustain. It was created in the beginning. 

It seemed to appear. From no where...some believing an alien dropped it off, others thinking it came from an astroid.

I know where it came from.

But the perfect way it recycles and the fact that it is a life sustaining building block is amazing and beyond coincidence in my opinon.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Water is just a combo of elements... elements which were present on earth and are present in other planets also.


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## Sunshine Goldens

All this talk of water is making me THIRSTY!!!!! I am off to find some right now! Thanks for an interesting discussion. I wish more people would be open to hearing differing opinions rather than just scream at one another. If kids in school were taught tolerance by their parents examples, I bet we'd find they could handle both versions and make up their own minds!

It's refreshing truly to not get bashed for being a doubting Thomas!


----------



## Lucky's mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Water is just a combo of elements... elements which were present on earth and are present in other planets also.


Yep, and its nothing without a plan in my opinon. It has to have the right distance from the sun, the proper atmosphere, and the right chemical make up to behave in the way it does. Just one flaw in the scheme of things and water is useless.


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## TheHooch

Well this is an entertaining thread. When I saw the topic I imagined fight. Not farts in hell. ROFL


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## AquaClaraCanines

hahaha no farting in hell!!!!

I do think earth has perfect conditions, but considering the vast thousands and millions of stars and planets, I don't think it's too great a coincidence.


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## Jazzys Mom

Sunshine Goldens said:


> All this talk of water is making me THIRSTY!!!!! I am off to find some right now! Thanks for an interesting discussion. I wish more people would be open to hearing differing opinions rather than just scream at one another. If kids in school were taught tolerance by their parents examples, I bet we'd find they could handle both versions and make up their own minds!
> 
> It's refreshing truly to not get bashed for being a doubting Thomas!


I think thats why I am finding this thread so refreshing ----- not one fight! We are really good!

Ok, so the apendix ----- they have receently found out why it exists. It filters things from the intestines. So it does have somewhat a reason for being! lol

Eyebrown and eyelashes keep little particles of dust, etc. from entering our eyes and damaging them.

I agree about water ---- too perfect to be a coincidence. I also know where it came from!:

Jazzys Mom


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## Jazzys Mom

TheHooch said:


> Well this is an entertaining thread. When I saw the topic I imagined fight. Not farts in hell. ROFL


 
Hey Hooch - Can you BELIEVE how good we've been?? 440 posts and nary an argument!

Jazzys Mom


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## Cam's Mom

> If you don't believe in God then how do you think humans came about? The human body is so intricate that only God could have made it.


Evolution!!! And we'ren no more intricate than other life forms, other mammals.


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## TheHooch

Jazzys Mom said:


> Hey Hooch - Can you BELIEVE how good we've been?? 440 posts and nary an argument!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I am impressed for sure.!!!!


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## Jazzys Mom

Cam's Mom said:


> Evolution!!! And we'ren no more intricate than other life forms, other mammals.


 
That's just it! lol Other life forms are intricate and so are humans. Evolution just couldn't be responsible

Jazzys Mom


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## Cam's Mom

Why could evolution not be responsible?


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## Kirby'sMom

Lucky's mom said:


> Yep, and its nothing without a plan in my opinon. It has to have the right distance from the sun, the proper atmosphere, and the right chemical make up to behave in the way it does. Just one flaw in the scheme of things and water is useless.


Not only that, but my thought has always been if everything came from the "bang", there still had to be a start somehow. Where did the original elements come from? There was nothing and then "bang"?
I know, "In the beginning God..."


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## Sunshine Goldens

I just find it odd/curious that all the "miracles" happened waaaaaaaaaaay back when no one had any knowledge of anything scientific. I do believe they attributed to "god" or "gods" that which they couldn't explain (but we can now). Sorry, but I believe in evolution 100%. The other sounds more like a fairytale to me. A nice one, but not one I can put stock in.


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## Lucky's mom

Sunshine Goldens said:


> I just find it odd/curious that all the "miracles" happened waaaaaaaaaaay back when no one had any knowledge of anything scientific. I do believe they attributed to "god" or "gods" that which they couldn't explain (but we can now). Sorry, but I believe in evolution 100%. The other sounds more like a fairytale to me. A nice one, but not one I can put stock in.


I don't trust evolution at all. I think the establishment is desperate to sell it at all costs...

This reminds me of the dog food arguments...it all boils down to what source you deem credible. And you can't convince someone to take to heart information from a source they deem non-credible.


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## AquaClaraCanines

but there is tons of proof of evolution- and none of god


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## TheHooch

AquaClaraCanines said:


> but there is tons of proof of evolution- and none of god


I think a brain and an oppsable thumbs are signs of God.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Dogs might disagree when they cannot work the can opener


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I think Hooch's miraculous "comeback" is the proof of the power of prayer and a Higher Being !!!! I also witnessed the power of something far greater than we when our younger son was born at 24 weeks, weighing 1 lb, 12 oz. He required heart surg at 2 days, was on a ventilator for 6 weeks and was given about a 10% chance of surviving. TO be around that type of crisis situation, there was definitely a presence that enveloped our family and carried all of us thru, but none more so than Bobby. He has grown up to defy all the odds..... always been a very intuitive, compassionate and wise beyond his years type of person. And now, he isliving his dream/calling..... he's a doctor doing his residency at Vandy. I give prayers of thanks every day....


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## AquaClaraCanines

I think those survival stories and ones like them are incredible, yes!! But I think they are because of the evolution based will to survive- the body is amazing- and because of modern science, which is also amazing.

I certainly respect your view and think your son (and your family) sound incredible! The above is just my view.

My own partner has mind blowing survival stories. She "should" be dead several times over, and could easily be a quad. Neither of us believe it's from god, though... amazing? Sure! Supernatural- no- I give her all the credit (okay the doctors too) and that's miracle enough for me.

How would we explain it if Courtney would NOT have survived, though? For me that's easy enough to explain (as tragic as it would have been)- science would have failed and ultimately her body would have too. How do those who believe in god explain such losses? God just didn't "want" to save her? What about the many premature babies which do not live?

Tough questions which my theory answers well- survival of the fittest, with a little or a lot of help (not always a good thing for the species) from science.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I, too, respect your view. I was a Christian long before our experience with our son...........but it was certainly reinforced at that time in our lives. Even his neonatologist was the first to say she prayed daily for the knowledge and intuition to help him.he was completely uncharted territory and many of the things done to him were "firsts" ( such as a sonogram thru the fontanel to detect a possible head bleed ) Many physicians find strength and guidance from their faith.......science, of course, is the focal point of modern medicine, but many, many physicians would say that faith provides the "art" of healing.


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## Jazzys Mom

Miracles did surly occur back in Biblical days but they occur today too. I can relate several miracle stories one being just 4 1/2 years ago when my 17 yr old grandson was in a horrific car accident. Think I have recounted this before but here's the "short" version. Rainy night - no seat belts - go-fast car! Head on crash and Nick endded up on the dash with the dash window crushing his head! A friend was in a car not too far behind him and thus reached the accident scene quickly. Rob got up on the hood of the car to try to pick up the windshield off Nick's head. Another man who was standing there when Rob came up to the car got up on the other side and between them they moved the windwhield off Nick's head. The man never said a word. Rob turned to thank him ---- he was gone! Nick had a ruptured spleen and massive head injuries. After 6 hours of surgery the docs gave him a 5% chance of survival and said if he did survive he would have brain dmamge and would have to leaarn to do things all over again as a baby would. Two days after the surgery to repair the spleen and relieve pressure on his brain he had to have surgery to put in filters to prevent blood clots from hitting his heart and lungs. Two days after that he had another open brain surgery. The anestologist told us he didn't even expect Nick to live that long! On about the 11th or 12th day of Nick's coma his brain pressure begin to rise again to dangerous levels. The docs said they had done everything they knew how to do and could do nothing more. Different combinations of drugs, surgeries, etc. nothing worked! Then, the brain pressure began to drop and within a day or two Nick came out of the coma. Three months later after rehabilitation he was walking, talking and had memory of everything before the accident. Today he has absolutely NO problems residual to the surgery. Even the docs say it was not them, but God that saved Nick. Will to live CANNOT do this - even the dics to this day maintain that. It was NOT them - it was GOD. This is one miracle i have witnessed ---- there are others i could recount too

Jazzys Mom


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## Farley Rocks!

Lucky's mom said:


> One of the things that hit me recently is the renewing and replenishing of water .....the substance we absolutely need to survive. A substance of no known origin. We can pollute it, poisen it, abuse it...but through evaporation the earth will always have a constant renewable source of water, albiet not in the same place.....
> 
> And then you have the earth renewing through decay.
> 
> Its not just one design....its a million designs that to me, obviously has a purpose beyond pure chance.
> 
> But it seems to start with our building blocks. It might be reasonable to assume that water can accidently arrive or exist...but for it to behave in such a perfect form of renewal...in collaboration with the renewal of our soil.....seems a little too remarkable for chance.


 
This was just BEAUTIFUL! Never thought about things this way. Really made me sit and ponder for a bit............


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## Farley Rocks!

Even as a Christian I always took issue with the idea that God saves certain people but not others. After 911 there was a pregnant women and her husband who went on numerous radio and television shows stating that God had chosen them to live because they were "good Christians" and followed his word. While I was all for them surviving that tragedy...it seemed audacious and that they would think God loved them more then the others who perished. Many very devote Christians died that day....I just don't see God picking and choosing who lives and who dies, who is meant for greatness and who will be murdered, tortured, raped, etc. If He determines the good...He has a say in the bad as well. I have been in situations where I was convinced a "higher power" was looking out for me....I lead a life filled with evils many would have succumbed to, was in a car accident that even the police could not explain how I made it out unharmed, suffered horse related accidents that could have left me paralyzed, and battled mental demons that at times seemed overwhelming, and for a time I dared God to let the worst befall me. But the idea that God would save me and let my friends die, save me and let the little old lady who attended church every Sunday be beaten to death over a few dollars hidden in her stocking, that he would chose to save me and allow infants, elderly, the helpless, to suffer - I just can't believe in a God like that and hide behind the "Everything happens for a reason" line. Life to me is not a test of faith...just a blending of choices and circumstances. I still debate the effects of "old energy" on our present lives. While I have never been a believer of the past lives theory - the reasoning behind it is no less plausible to me then purgatory or eternity in peace and love....but it does sound exhausting..all that rebirth and having to start all over again and again lol! Maybe I'm just lazy


----------



## Luvinmygoldens

Jazzys Mom said:


> Miracles did surly occur back in Biblical days but they occur today too. I can relate several miracle stories one being just 4 1/2 years ago when my 17 yr old grandson was in a horrific car accident. Think I have recounted this before but here's the "short" version. Rainy night - no seat belts - go-fast car! Head on crash and Nick endded up on the dash with the dash window crushing his head! A friend was in a car not too far behind him and thus reached the accident scene quickly. Rob got up on the hood of the car to try to pick up the windshield off Nick's head. Another man who was standing there when Rob came up to the car got up on the other side and between them they moved the windwhield off Nick's head. The man never said a word. Rob turned to thank him ---- he was gone! Nick had a ruptured spleen and massive head injuries. After 6 hours of surgery the docs gave him a 5% chance of survival and said if he did survive he would have brain dmamge and would have to leaarn to do things all over again as a baby would. Two days after the surgery to repair the spleen and relieve pressure on his brain he had to have surgery to put in filters to prevent blood clots from hitting his heart and lungs. Two days after that he had another open brain surgery. The anestologist told us he didn't even expect Nick to live that long! On about the 11th or 12th day of Nick's coma his brain pressure begin to rise again to dangerous levels. The docs said they had done everything they knew how to do and could do nothing more. Different combinations of drugs, surgeries, etc. nothing worked! Then, the brain pressure began to drop and within a day or two Nick came out of the coma. Three months later after rehabilitation he was walking, talking and had memory of everything before the accident. Today he has absolutely NO problems residual to the surgery. Even the docs say it was not them, but God that saved Nick. Will to live CANNOT do this - even the dics to this day maintain that. It was NOT them - it was GOD. This is one miracle i have witnessed ---- there are others i could recount too
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I loved reading your story. What a true miracle delivered by the hand of God.


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## Jazzys Mom

Luvinmygoldens said:


> I loved reading your story. What a true miracle delivered by the hand of God.


Thank you! Not a day goes by that I don't thank God for Nick! I knew the morning of his surgery he was not going to die. Our Pastor knew nothing of the accident until Nick was out of surgery. He told me that "something" (God) awakened him at 2:30 am and siad "Jeff, pray!" Pastor told me he said to God, "Why? What am I to pray for?" He said he alsome sudibly heard God say, "Just pray Jeff, just pray!" Our Pastor told me he got on his knees and prayed until 5am. I had called their house and left a message about Nick at 2:30am. He didn't get the message until 8am as the answering machine was in the kitchen! When he told me about his "conversation" with God I knew Nick would live no matter what.

Jazzys Mom


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## Jazzys Mom

Farley Rocks! said:


> Even as a Christian I always took issue with the idea that God saves certain people but not others. After 911 there was a pregnant women and her husband who went on numerous radio and television shows stating that *God had chosen them to live because they were "good Christians" and followed his word.* While I was all for them surviving that tragedy...it seemed audacious and that they would think God loved them more then the others who perished. Many very devote Christians died that day....I just don't see God picking and choosing who lives and who dies, who is meant for greatness and who will be murdered, tortured, raped, etc. If He determines the good...He has a say in the bad as well. I have been in situations where I was convinced a "higher power" was looking out for me....I lead a life filled with evils many would have succumbed to, was in a car accident that even the police could not explain how I made it out unharmed, suffered horse related accidents that could have left me paralyzed, and battled mental demons that at times seemed overwhelming, and for a time I dared God to let the worst befall me. But the idea that God would save me and let my friends die, save me and let the little old lady who attended church every Sunday be beaten to death over a few dollars hidden in her stocking, that he would chose to save me and allow infants, elderly, the helpless, to suffer - I just can't believe in a God like that and hide behind the "Everything happens for a reason" line. Life to me is not a test of faith...just a blending of choices and circumstances. I still debate the effects of "old energy" on our present lives. While I have never been a believer of the past lives theory - the reasoning behind it is no less plausible to me then purgatory or eternity in peace and love....but it does sound exhausting..all that rebirth and having to start all over again and again lol! Maybe I'm just lazy


God did not save these people because they were good Christians and followed His word! I have a difficult time believing they WERE Christians as ture Christians would never make a statement like that. God loves everyone equally, no matter what lind of life you have led. It saddens Him to see any of us live a life of flagrant sin but He wants NO ONE to perish! People (and I have some in my own family) tend to think they have to be perfect or they don't belong in God's house. Its not the perfect people (is there any?) that God calls but the imperfect. The people who do not know Him, the ones who flagrantly live a life of sin. These are the ones He pierces their hearts so they will come to know Him. God is loving and doesn't pick me over you or you over the lady down the street. We are all ezual in His eyes. People get confused with this because God gives us choices. Sometimes we make good choices and sometimes bad ones. This is not saying that all the people that were killed in 911 made bad choices. many of them were Christians and many were not. Yes, God could step in and giude us to make the choice that would be best but he gives us that choice and hopes we will make the decision to follow Him. If we don't He will continue to pursue us until our hearts are so hardened that we can no longer see Him as a loving God.

Jazzys Mom


----------



## Farley Rocks!

Jazzys Mom said:


> God did not save these people because they were good Christians and followed His word! I have a difficult time believing they WERE Christians as ture Christians would never make a statement like that. God loves everyone equally, no matter what lind of life you have led. It saddens Him to see any of us live a life of flagrant sin but He wants NO ONE to perish! People (and I have some in my own family) tend to think they have to be perfect or they don't belong in God's house. Its not the perfect people (is there any?) that God calls but the imperfect. The people who do not know Him, the ones who flagrantly live a life of sin. These are the ones He pierces their hearts so they will come to know Him. God is loving and doesn't pick me over you or you over the lady down the street. We are all ezual in His eyes. People get confused with this because God gives us choices. Sometimes we make good choices and sometimes bad ones. This is not saying that all the people that were killed in 911 made bad choices. many of them were Christians and many were not. Yes, God could step in and giude us to make the choice that would be best but he gives us that choice and hopes we will make the decision to follow Him. If we don't He will continue to pursue us until our hearts are so hardened that we can no longer see Him as a loving God.
> 
> Jazzys Mom


Their story was on the Christian talk station here...I was flipping through stations and thought it was bit on togetherness and support but was so appalled I could not change the station. I understand that God can give choices..but I still do not understand why he would save one infant born prematurely but not another. If He can save anyone..why that infant and not the one in the next room? What makes that baby worth saving while the other is left to die? 

I am not trying to be argumentative and I find what you write well thought out, articulated and quite beautiful...I just like to hear how others think and justify and so often defensiveness gets in the way. My work, for example, is made up of various types of Christians but even explaining religous customs and traditions will ugly between them. Some people at my work even call the 2 Jehovah’s Witnesses I work with Ja-ho-hos (and yes, to their face) . 

I tend to avoid those conversations all together.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I want to know too- why does C get NF2? I dare anyone to tell her to her face it's a blessing or some crap. Yeah YOU live with NF2 and tell me what a blessing it is, right?


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## RickGibbs

Jazzys Mom said:


> God did not save these people because they were good Christians and followed His word!


I've thought a lot about "good Christian" people who die young....and personally, I feel we're just short sighted to think of death the way we do.... I believe that once I die and go to Heaven, I won't care much about how long I lived in this world. I believe that once we see how glorious Heaven is....it just won't matter anymore....


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## AquaClaraCanines

While I don't think we go to heaven (or anywhere else) I do think it won't matter when we die- good point!


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## Jazzys Mom

RickGibbs said:


> I've thought a lot about "good Christian" people who die young....and personally, I feel we're just short sighted to think of death the way we do.... I believe that once I die and go to Heaven, I won't care much about how long I lived in this world. I believe that once we see how glorious Heaven is....it just won't matter anymore....


 
Oh, I think you are sooo right! Once we see Heaven and stand in the presence of the living Jesus Christ it will not matter if we were 15 or 50 when we died. The only thing that matters is where we will spend eternity. All of us will spend it one of two places -- in Heaven with Jesus or in Hell with Satan.

As for why God does or does not do things the way WE think He should ---- we don't know why exactly. God is God and we are human. Our mind cannot possibly comprehend the almighty things of God while here on earth. We that believe just have to trust Him and know that what he does is the best. He is all knowing, all seeing and all loving. The alpha and omega --- the first and the last! If God took one of my children I certainly wouldn't be happy and I would grieve their death but I also know that God has a purpose in everything that He does. I don't always know what that purpose is but I trust that He knows best

Jazzys Mom


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## Jazzys Mom

Farley Rocks! said:


> Their story was on the Christian talk station here...I was flipping through stations and thought it was bit on togetherness and support but was so appalled I could not change the station. I understand that God can give choices..but I still do not understand why he would save one infant born prematurely but not another. If He can save anyone..why that infant and not the one in the next room? What makes that baby worth saving while the other is left to die?
> 
> I am not trying to be argumentative and I find what you write well thought out, articulated and quite beautiful...I just like to hear how others think and justify and so often defensiveness gets in the way. My work, for example, is made up of various types of Christians but even explaining religous customs and traditions will ugly between them. *Some people at my work even call the 2 Jehovah’s Witnesses I work with Ja-ho-hos (and yes, to their face)* .
> 
> I tend to avoid those conversations all together.


That is really sad! While I don't agree with the beliefs of the JW they are still human people and their beliefs don't make them any different than I am. Different beliefs don't make a friendship. While I can probably be a closer friend with another Christian because we believe the same things and can have in depth conversations, I can still be a close friend with a JW, Catholic, Lutheran, Atheist, Jew, etc. The way I look at it -- we are all human and we should treat each other as we would want to be treated

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines

Jazzy's Mom I'll fully agree w/that!!!


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## Farley Rocks!

To die - not an issue for me..the way one dies or the violent senseless acts comitted against the innocent and defensless...THAT is the problem I have. You could argue that God let baby in room #2 die because the life it would have lived would have been one of despair? But then how to justify letting the 8 day old baby live just to be raped by her father and then die at her parents hands (hate to be graffic but this was a true case that just happened recently and if I did believe in God...I would still question him now). As many Christian and non-Christian alike...I struggle with the idea that a kind and loving God could stop this and does not.


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## TheHooch

I have tried myself to figure our this whole who dies who has cancer who has AIDS or whatever insert your owner disease in there. The more I look the less I see a picture or a plan or God's will or any higher power's control. Things just happen but I find it senseless that some religions think because you have a disorder it was brought on by the sins of your forefathers. That much I have figured out.

I think somehow somewhere we just have so much to get accomplish here and then we are gone. Some like me need warnings to remember that you don;t have forever to take care of the things you should.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I cannot fathom anyone thinking that disease, disorders,etc are brought on by past sins. Our family has had it's share of heartache as I'm sure most families have ( we lost 3 nephews as children..... one from cancer, 2 from genetic diseases), but we've found that there are lessons to be learned even from this. We've grown in a way that comes from heartache and loss and, hopefully, we are better, more compassionate people for it. God never promised us a life without pain or difficulty. As to the awful things that we humans do to one another............ many would say that is the price of having free will.


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## AquaClaraCanines

C and I have made the best of our own hardships, of her illness... but we sure don't see it as any proof of god- quite the opposite.

Sure, we know we have things we wouldn't have if she didn't have NF2 (great nf2 friends, an appreciation for things in life most take for granted) but... does that make NF2 worth having? IMO no


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## RickGibbs

As far as pain and suffering.....the only thing I can think of (and it's a crappy example, since I'm a guy) is childbirth. I have five kids, so I know that my wife went through considerable pain and suffering during childbirth. But it always amazes me how it all disappears when the doctor hands the baby to the mom....

So, if I die a long suffering death.....will it all be forgotten the instant I'm in Heaven?


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## AquaClaraCanines

It'll be forgotten no matter who is right- you or me! lol


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## TheHooch

RickGibbs said:


> So, if I die a long suffering death.....will it all be forgotten the instant I'm in Heaven?


Now that one I am counting on!!!!!!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

After being at the births of my 3 grandkids in the last year and a half, I found that time to be absolutely overwhelming with the thoughts of the precious and perfect nature of every little life. How miraculous that in 9 months, a perfect little being emerges..... full of life and innocence. I found this a very spiritual time for us...... even more so with our grandkids since I had sections with general anesthesia with our two. That certainly is the best of life.......... and many say that the best is sweeter when you have also experienced the flip side of heartache, sadness and loss. Definitely the circle of life.


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## RickGibbs

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> After being at the births of my 3 grandkids in the last year and a half, I found that time to be absolutely overwhelming with the thoughts of the precious and perfect nature of every little life. How miraculous that in 9 months, a perfect little being emerges..... full of life and innocence. I found this a very spiritual time for us...... even more so with our grandkids since I had sections with general anesthesia with our two. That certainly is the best of life.......... and many say that the best is sweeter when you have also experienced the flip side of heartache, sadness and loss. Definitely the circle of life.


It's the only example in life I can think of.....to describe how I think it'll be. And I don't mean that to minimize suffering on Earth.... I just don't think, once I die and go to Heaven....any of it will matter anymore...


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## AquaClaraCanines

How would it matter if you were just oblivious, either, though? I think death is just like going to a dreamless sleep.


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## TheHooch

AquaClaraCanines said:


> How would it matter if you were just oblivious, either, though? I think death is just like going to a dreamless sleep.


I don;t want to fight cause your my buddy but if you feel that way about death why are you wanting to serve in the capacity to humans and dogs that you do!!!!!!!!


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## AquaClaraCanines

My views on death have nothing to do with why I like to help people and dogs!  And didn't take it as fighting words. 

I help people and dogs here on earth because it gives me pleasure. You know what they say... if it feels good, you should!!! 

For me it has NOTHING to do with being "good" for a reward later. I just think it's my purpose, because it makes me feel good about myself, and I like to help. But I do it for myself too- because I truly enjoy it.


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## AquaClaraCanines

BTW if this life IS all there is (and I believe it is) then I want to make the most of it... and make as much difference as I can. If I help a dog it could go on to give others pleasure. If I help a homeless person, he could go on to change the world for all I know... it's my contribution to society.


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## Emmysourgolden

Farley Rocks! said:


> To die - not an issue for me..the way one dies or the violent senseless acts comitted against the innocent and defensless...THAT is the problem I have. You could argue that God let baby in room #2 die because the life it would have lived would have been one of despair? But then how to justify letting the 8 day old baby live just to be raped by her father and then die at her parents hands (hate to be graffic but this was a true case that just happened recently and if I did believe in God...I would still question him now). As many Christian and non-Christian alike...I struggle with the idea that a kind and loving God could stop this and does not.


The way I look at this is that so many people see death as the worst thing that could possibly happen. I don't think it is. I think it sucks for those of us left here but I think the person who has died and is in heaven probably wonders why they ever wanted to stay where we are. I think heaven is going to be that great! 
As far as God allowing bad things to happen to little baby's, abuse..all that. We all have free will and choose our own actions. I do think he allows it here but all will be made just when we die.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Well a baby doesn't choose to be abused...


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## Emmysourgolden

Not that he wants it to happen but God has given each of us free will. We can believe what we want and do what we want. I believe both the child's pain and the abuser's wrongs will both be accounted for.


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## Emmysourgolden

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Well a baby doesn't choose to be abused...


No, no of course not, that's not what I'm saying. I think the extra pain and suffering that child goes through will be accounted for in Heaven. I think that child holds a special place in heaven. That's totally just my opinion. Like I think the abuser may be extremely punished and that child may be extremely rewarded. Or even if not, heaven will be so great and hell will be so terrible.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Oh I misunderstood. Sorry! I thought you were saying that we have free will so if we are abused it's our own fault.


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## TheHooch

AquaClaraCanines said:


> My views on death have nothing to do with why I like to help people and dogs!  And didn't take it as fighting words.
> 
> I help people and dogs here on earth because it gives me pleasure. You know what they say... if it feels good, you should!!!
> 
> For me it has NOTHING to do with being "good" for a reward later. I just think it's my purpose, because it makes me feel good about myself, and I like to help. But I do it for myself too- because I truly enjoy it.


I agree I don;t think of it as paying ahead for a heavenly reward I think of it more as paying back for blessings received.


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## AquaClaraCanines

My views of death don't have anything to do with why I do anything I do, though...

Except, sadly, sometimes I long for oblivion.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I agree, ACC, that what I do is certainly not done with the thought of how it will affect me later down the road ( after I'm dead). However, I do think that the hardships that I've had thru my life make me look at others with more compassion and empathy. And hopefully have made me a better person. There's an old saying that says, " I felt so sorry for me with no shoes until I met a man with no feet"............. there's alot of truth there. I know that no matter where I am in life, ther are others that are not so fortunate for whatever reason and that is deserving of whatever I can offer. We really ARE our brothers' keepers.


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## Emmysourgolden

And as far as evil people like abusers, murderers kidnappers..etc in regards with God allowing them to do it. I see it this way. When you have kids/dogs you guide them the best you can but ultimately it's up to them on what they decide to do. Think of people who have grown children who have murdered someone or done something just terrible. Or even a little kid that lied to you or is going through the stage of wanting to throw tantrums anything... Do their parents not love them because they did any of these things?? They still love them and are willing to do anything to get them back on the right track. We, as God's children, are looked at the same way. So that murderer, God still loves that person and wants them to change their ways and does whatever he can to get him back on track. I think he puts people in their lives to help them, gives them situations they can learn from. And, just as a parent would continue's to love them, hating what their doing and is longing for them to straighten out and come back to him. 
I have a brother who has robbed, does drugs...God only knows what all. My parents led him down the same path they did the rest of us kids but my brother has chosen to do these things. My parents love him while they hate what he's doing to his life and the choices he makes and help him any way they know how and long for him to come home and straighten out but the choice is up to my brother. I believe God longs for us the same way we do our family members.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Ditto, and we don't have to agree about God or not God to agree about that...


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## AquaClaraCanines

BTW I don't think death is horrible... life can be far, far worse than death. That's why I have no problem with things like choosing to die for one's self (euthanasia) and similar. Even for pets, death can be a gift compared to life on a chain, or worse.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I was just thinking that too, Jenna. So much of what's being said is true no matter what theological tree you're coming out of ! For children to grow up knowing about their parents' unconditional love is a great, great gift !!! I also agree that there are many things worse than death..... we've dealt with some of them with family members. However, I cannot say I believe in human euthanasia.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I don't believe in euth'ing others... but I believe in the right to choose it for yourself. Believe me I will if the time comes, whether I have help or not.


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## Jazzys Mom

A very good friend just sent me this and I'd like to share it with you guys. Its a letter from Jesus about Christmas. Interesting and thought provoking!

Jazzys Mom

Dear Children, 

It has come to my attention that many of you are upset that folks are taking My name out of the season. Maybe you've forgotten that I wasn't actually born during this time of the year and that it was some of your predecessors who decided to celebrate My birthday on what was actually a time of pagan festival. Although I do appreciate being remembered anytime. 

How I personally feel about this celebration can probably be most easily understood by those of you who have been blessed with children of your own. I don't care what you call the day. If you want to celebrate My birth, just GET ALONG AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. 

Now, having said that let Me go on. If it bothers you that the town in which you live doesn't allow a scene depicting My birth, then just get rid of a couple of Santas and snowmen and put in a small Nativity scene 
on your own front lawn. If all My followers did that there wouldn't be any need for such a scene on the town square because there would be many of them all around town. 

Stop worrying about the fact that people are calling the tree a holiday tree, instead of a Christmas tree. It was I who made all trees. You can remember Me anytime you see any tree. Decorate a grape vine if you 
wish: I actually spoke of that one in a teaching, explaining who I am in relation to you and what each of our tasks were. If you have forgotten that one, look up John 15:1-8.. 

If you want to give Me a present in remembrance of My birth here is my wish list. Choose something from it: 

1. Instead of writing protest letters objecting to the way My birthday is being celebrated, write letters of love and hope to soldiers away from home. They are terribly afraid and lonely this time of year. I know, they tell Me all the time. 

2. Visit someone in a nursing home. You don't have to know them personally. They just need to know that someone cares about them. 

3. Instead of writing George complaining about the wording on the cards his staff sent out this year, why don't you write and tell him that you'll be praying for him and his family this year. Then follow up. It will be nice hearing from you again. 

4. Instead of giving your children a lot of gifts you can't afford and they don't need, spend time with them. Tell them the story of My birth, and why I came to live with you down here. Hold them in your arms and 
remind them that I love them.

5. Pick someone that has hurt you in the past and forgive him or her. 

6. Did you know that someone in your town will attempt to take their own life this season because they feel so alone and hopeless? Since you don't know who that person is, try giving everyone you meet a warm smile; it could make the difference. 

7. Instead of nit picking about what the retailer in your town calls the holiday, be patient with the people who work there. Give them a warm smile and a kind word. Even if they aren't allowed to wish you a "Merry Christmas" that doesn't keep you from wishing them one. Then stop shopping there on Sunday. If the store didn't make so much money on that day they'd close and let their employees spend the day at home with their families. 

8. If you really want to make a difference, support a missionary--especially one who takes My love and Good News to those who have never heard My name. 

9. Here's a good one. There are individuals and whole families in your town who not only will have no "Christmas" tree, but neither will they have anypresents to give or receive. If you don't know them, buy some food and a few gifts and give them to the Salvation Army or some other charity which believes in 
Me and they will make the delivery for you.
10. Finally, if you want to make a statement about your belief in and loyalty to Me, then behave like a Christian. Don't do things in secret that you wouldn't do in My presence. Let people know by your actions that you are one of mine. 

Don't forget; I am God and can take care of Myself. Just love Me and do what I have told you to do. I'll take care of all the rest. Check out the list above and get to work; time is short I'll help you, butthe ball is now in your court. And do have a most blessed Christmas with all those whom you love and remember : I LOVE YOU, 


JESUS


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## Farley Rocks!

AquaClaraCanines said:


> BTW I don't think death is horrible... life can be far, far worse than death. That's why I have no problem with things like choosing to die for one's self (euthanasia) and similar. Even for pets, death can be a gift compared to life on a chain, or worse.


I have to agree with this. Death means the the absence of pain (unless hell exists but I don't think so). I want to choose how and when I go....before I am to sick, or senile, or a burden on my family..my only problem is I have to make it look like an accident and not a suicide for insurance purposes .

I may be disturbed......


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## Jazzys Mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> BTW I don't think death is horrible... life can be far, far worse than death. That's why I have no problem with things like choosing to die for one's self (euthanasia) and similar. Even for pets, death can be a gift compared to life on a chain, or worse.


I have been with people when they have died. Every one of them were very peaceful deaths. I was at my FIL's side just 2 years ago as he died. I listened with a stethascope to his heart just wind down to nothing. He was completely at peace and I can say for a fact that he did NOT live in complete peace. Death is the easiest part of life!

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines

Me too, Jazzy's Mom... seen multiple people and plenty of dogs pass. It's not all bad.


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## TheHooch

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Me too, Jazzy's Mom... seen multiple people and plenty of dogs pass. It's not all bad.


It was looking pretty bad from where I was laying three weeks aog. I don;t mind saying I pleaded for my life.


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## RickGibbs

TheHooch said:


> It was looking pretty bad from where I was laying three weeks aog. I don;t mind saying I pleaded for my life.


That's just because you know you have work to do on this forum....


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## AquaClaraCanines

And we are glad you did Hooch!


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## TheHooch

RickGibbs said:


> That's just because you know you have work to do on this forum....


Probably have a little more than work to do in my spiriual life.


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## Farley Rocks!

TheHooch said:


> Probably have a little more than work to do in my spiriual life.


Death is not welcomed when there are still things left to do, loved ones to care for, so many loose ends to tie up. A lot depends on not just how prepared you are...but on how you feel the loved ones around you will cope. Death now would scare me because I'd leave behind a 9 yr old boy with so many gifts to give the world...but a father who would stifle them. A little boy who still believes his mother can make everything better. 

I have seen fear in the eyes of the dying....anger, betrayal. Its not "going" that is the issue...its the "letting go" that is the hard part.


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## Jazzys Mom

Did anyone see the Oprah show this morning? She had the author of Tuesday's With Morrie on - Mitch Albom. He has written a book and its also a movie coming out called FOR ONE MORE DAY. Its going to be on Dec. 9th at 9pm on ABC. Anyway, the question he asks is ---- if you could have one more day to spend with someone who has died who would it be and why? 

Farley, your statement about not being ready to die because of your 9 year old makes me think! If I could spend one more day with someone who has died I would pick my Dad or Mom but I wonder what THEY would have to say about being prepared to die. I may have lots of things to say to them ----- the I'm sorrys and I love yous, but I wonder what they would have to say to me about leaving me??

Jazzys Mom


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

RIGHT NOW... let's everyone pray / send good thoughts to Cindy and Hooch. He's having trouble breathing and may be on his way to the hosp.


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## HoldensMom

Carsonsdaddy said:


> "The biggest argument against Christianity is Christians." I don't remember who said it but I've head it several times. So many times the way we act is totally opposite of what we say we believe....


Not sure about that one exactly, but I know Ghandi has been quoted as saying "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Ghandi himself was more Christ-like than a good number of christians, and that is one reason why I respect and admire him.

Me:
*I like to think of myself as a Christ-follower. I have accepted Christ as my savior, but I also continue to accept him every day... not because i would lose him or my salvation if I didn't, but simply because i feel that if I claim to love Christ, I should affirm that love with devotion and action. 
* My faith is challenged daily, and i question things constantly... which, inevitably, leads me back to Christ every time. 
* My life is not easier with faith, but actually more difficult. I like it this way.
* I practice love, not religion, and I openly admit that I fail at that practice all the time... I love nature, the environment, and I'm a humanitarian (most of the time  )
* Working in the medical field, I believe in both medicine and miracles. I put faith in modern science, but do not abandon biblical teachings. I believe in both creation and evolution.
* I do not, nor will i ever, claim to know someone's heart... and, therefore, feel that if my faith and beliefs cause someone harm or distress, than those beliefs must end where the others' begin. It is also why I feel that many political issues should not be governed by religious teachings... even if I have personal convictions that disagree with them.

There's a lot more to me and my faith, but this is a good start I think...


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Christians....have any of you read any of the Philip Yancey books??? "The Jesus I Never Knew" and "What's So Amazing About Grace" are two that I have read and found really thought provoking.Yancey is the editor for Christian Today magazine and those two books have been awarded Christian Books of the Year. Billy Graham has said of Yancey, " There is no writer in the evangelical world I admire and appreciate more" BTW, they are NOT "denomination related"...... I'm an Episcopalian, my sister a Catholic and we've both loved them. I'm so excited, just got back from B&N and have a new one..."Reaching for the Invisible God". I hope some of you would make this your Christmas reading....The Jesus I Never Knew would be a great first one.


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## HoldensMom

I generally shy away from a lot of "Christian" books, just because there is so much fluff out now... but as long as it's mostly fluff-free, I'll at least check it out.

C.S. Lewis is one of the few that I can really get into.

That, and I just really enjoy fiction... like Harry Potter


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

HoldensMom said:


> I generally shy away from a lot of "Christian" books, just because there is so much fluff out now... but as long as it's mostly fluff-free, I'll at least check it out.
> 
> C.S. Lewis is one of the few that I can really get into.
> 
> That, and I just really enjoy fiction... like Harry Potter


They are definitely not fluff....they sit proudly on my bookshelf right next to all my CS Lewis.


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## MissNikkisMom

I was raised in the Lutheran Church. 

I would consider myself an eclectic pagan.


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## Farley Rocks!

MissNikkisMom said:


> I was raised in the Lutheran Church.
> 
> I would consider myself an eclectic pagan.


In that case I would recommend the CS Lewis books over the Philip Yancey books :

I have heard wonderful things about Dan Millmans books but have yet to ready them. I am going to go on on Friday and see if I can pick one up but am torn between WAY OF THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR*, *Sacred *Journey* of the Peaceful Warrior or *Journey's of Socrates*...anybody??


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## AquaClaraCanines

I have read the first, but not the second


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## Jazzys Mom

If anyone likes Christian fiction then read Terri Blackstock's fiction books. Especially her Cape Refuge series. I have just finished Cape Refuge and Southern Storm (the 1st and 2nd books in the series). They are great Christian mysteries.

Also, the whole Left Behind series (By Tim Lahaey) is wonderful!


Jazzys Mom


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## Lucky's mom

I loved that movie "Constantine". It went wild with creative license, but didn't cheapen God or Christianity.


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## Farley Rocks!

Okay...All the religion talk made me dig out an old New York Times Bestseller titled End of Faith Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason..of which I only read a small portion BUT it seems to have some great ideas for the sake of debate. Again-not my particular belief but interesting concepts nonetheless 

"Our situation: most of the people in the world believe that the Creator of the universe has written a book. We have the misfortune of having many such books on hand, each making an exclusive claim as to its infallibility."
and
"Once a person believes- really believes- that certain ideas can lead to eternal happiness, or to its antithesis, he cannot tolerate the possibility that the people he loves might be led astray by the blandishments of unbelievers. Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible of tolerance in this one."


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## Jazzys Mom

The Bible is the only book that has survived for over 2000 years and is still on the best seller list:

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines

Even if you're a devoted Christian- do you think the Bible literally EVERY word is infallable? Do you not think some of it applied to the REGION and times of the Bible- and not the entire planet?

For example the flood. I mean hello, there are parts of the world TODAY we cannot access, and species we haven't even discovered. If a great regional flood occured, it certainly makes sense they may have salvaged animals from the entire would- as THEY knew it- ie their region. Does anyone actually believe Noah and pals took a treck to North America and captured panthers, bears, wild boar, white tail deer, every native bird... and Europe, Australia, and all of South East Asia, oh and South America and Africa? Even when I was five years old I had the reasoning ability to know that story, while charming, is laughable.

I can believe two of every kind of livestock was gathered onto a boat, though not sure I can believe how anyone would have known to build it, and that a great regional flood caused by a serious of storms may have occured. So perhaps the story was "true" to the person who wrote it- because the person who wrote it didn't know there WAS a world beyond his own.


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## moverking

Farley Rocks! said:


> In that case I would recommend the CS Lewis books over the Philip Yancey books :
> 
> I have heard wonderful things about Dan Millmans books but have yet to ready them. I am going to go on on Friday and see if I can pick one up but am torn between WAY OF THE PEACEFUL WARRIOR*, *Sacred *Journey* of the Peaceful Warrior or *Journey's of Socrates*...anybody??


I'd suggest Way of the Peaceful Warrior first, the Sacred Journey I wasn't ready for, and I haven't yet read the Journey's of Socrates. I enjoyed them immensely and tried so hard to practice the peace, alas, I was too young:

But even before reading those, I'd suggest Daniel Quinn's 'Ishmael', then 'My Ishmael'. Really the best book that's ever changed my life


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## HoldensMom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Even if you're a devoted Christian- do you think the Bible literally EVERY word is infallable? Do you not think some of it applied to the REGION and times of the Bible- and not the entire planet?


if you mean inerrancy, then no. if you mean infallibility, then yes.

inerrancy and infallibility are not synonymous. also, neither inerrancy nor infallibility equate to a literal interpritation (some christians may lump them together). in fact, most of those i know who ascribe to inerrancy of the scriptures do not believe in a complete literal interpritation.

for me, ascribing to a literal interpritation of the scriptures, would be like ascribing to a literal interpritation of a poem or sonnet. it is silly and useless for me to think that i could read scripture as a history or science book when it was never meant to relay facts about a religion, but rather the truth of God.

and as far as noah and the ark and the flood and all of that go... i understand the pentateuch to be heavily derived from hebrew oral tradition that is based on an actual events. some scholars will argue that the story has spiritual symbolism in that the flood represents a sort of baptistm of the earth (sin is washed away and man is restored) or a new covenant between God and the nations (Christ as the new covenant for us)... since i believe infallability and not inerrancy, it really doesn't matter to me whether the flood happened in one remote region or the entire earth or if there were 2 of every animal or if some species got left behind. what matters is that in the end, God was faithful and sent Christ to fullfill the covenant. 

hope that answers your question


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## Farley Rocks!

moverking said:


> I'd suggest Way of the Peaceful Warrior first, the Sacred Journey I wasn't ready for, and I haven't yet read the Journey's of Socrates. I enjoyed them immensely and tried so hard to practice the peace, alas, I was too young:
> 
> But even before reading those, I'd suggest Daniel Quinn's 'Ishmael', then 'My Ishmael'. Really the best book that's ever changed my life


I am going to run out today and get "Ishmael". Thanks for the reccomendation. I wanted to finish the End of Faith but its so negative and heavy so far that I need something positive to equal it out!


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## AquaClaraCanines

Interesting. I have always wondered about that... I do think Biblical people like Moses and Noah probably existed and were great people, and actually have read the Bible a lot and find it interesting. But I can't believe most of it...


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## moverking

Farley Rocks! said:


> I am going to run out today and get "Ishmael". Thanks for the reccomendation. I wanted to finish the End of Faith but its so negative and heavy so far that I need something positive to equal it out!


_"Teacher seeks pupil. Must have an earnest desire to save the world. Apply in person."_
Well, let me say, if your response is similar to mine, there will be several moments that you put the book down, pi**ed off as all get out. Just because you never thought of things the way the story unfolds....doubly so with My Ishmael.
Don't be put off with how it starts, keep reading


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## moverking

Sheesh, double post, sorry


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## Lucky's mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Even if you're a devoted Christian- do you think the Bible literally EVERY word is infallable? Do you not think some of it applied to the REGION and times of the Bible- and not the entire planet?


I do believe in its literal truth. And I believe it infallable and God inspired. 

So I do believe Noahs ark, Adam and Eve etc...... as written.....


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## kezia14

Lucky's mom said:


> I do believe in its literal truth. And I believe it infallable and God inspired.
> 
> So I do believe Noahs ark, Adam and Eve etc...... as written.....


Me too ! I believe it ! 
Coz from early years, my parents and in my church teach me to always do anything with our believe in God which is already written in Bible.

I thinks why we have Bible ?
Coz someone or somebody (even i dunno if there is a people who knows completely about od histories) wrote the history of God and Jesus and etc. into a Bible.
So i do believe in it.


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## Farley Rocks!

Hehe...My son went to a Christmas Play with his Grandfather this weekend (my husbands dad) who is a very devote Christian. The play was at a church and they stayed for a service after...Bren came home all excited "Mom, I accepted Jesus into my heart!!". I was like...are you sure it was Jesus honey cuz you know he and your mom are not on close terms lol...in my head....outwardly I did the thats nice whatever-makes-you-happy-dear comments. We also held our annual HHARP (Hope Happiness And Respect for all People) dinner (since my family celebrates all different faiths) this weekend. It is normally a non-religious function but after a request for Rudolph and Jingle Bells the pianist busted out with the Adam Sandler Chanukahsong! Not PC but good times were had by all  Its nice when people can just get together and have fun.


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## DebsiLou

Used to be rock n roll crazy. Now, like the song goes....I'm found! Love the Lord. SO much more freedom in Jesus! Love St. Louis Family Church. Not that troubles don't come...just have a wonderful counselor in Jesus! I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me!


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