# Metal Retaining Scent?



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I use hot scent for articles - rub the article enough to create some friction and build the scent. And once scented I won't use it as an unscented article for at least two days. My dogs will pick up yesterday's scent.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I tried this game with the metal canning ring too and I see Brooks has a much harder time finding this than he usually does finding cloth or plastic items. He sometimes walks right past the ring, something he never does with other items I hide.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I believe cloth and leather will hold the scent better than metal. So my guess would be he has been trained properly but with changing to metal it is too "different" to him. I would put more scent on the metal and see what happens. I know a number of folks would use the canning jar rings as article so I do no think that is the issue.
And dogs do work hot scent. With all my dogs after my first I have never worried about separating my scented ones from the unscented ones if not using them again for 24 hours. 
Just my 2 cents


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I use hot scent for articles - rub the article enough to create some friction and build the scent. And once scented I won't use it as an unscented article for at least two days. My dogs will pick up yesterday's scent.


I just did 5-7 reps like this (I usually just pick it up, lightly touch all around and place it). I was a bad dog trainer and didn't video tape a previous session or this one to compare, but I did not notice a different in response. He had to be very very very close and attentive or he'd just go right past it. There are ridges in the edge...I would think skin cells would be caught in there? And really, we used the same one for that number of times....he should be able to smell the dog slobber on it too, right? But he didn't improve over the repetitions.

Do some types of metal retain scent better than others? I'm really surprised at how much he is struggling!

Thanks for all the comments and ideas.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Is he always picking up the same wrong one? 
Also, how close together are you putting the articles? Sometimes if they're close together the scent migrates to the nearby articles and dogs with a very sensitive nose have a hard time determining where it's coming from.
Finally, move the article pile each time because the scent also leaches onto the floor, further confusing the dog.
Dogs should not (in theory) have a hard time finding the one you just scented, even if you scented a different one an hour earlier. They look for the most recent scent, known as the "hot scent". But we can't know what they're smelling, so we have to guess and try to change things up until we figure out what's causing them the problem.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

This is happening even if it's one item hidden in the room. He'll go right past it unless his nose is very close to it. As he's going, I can see him scenting but not catching the scent... if that makes sense...

When we have a set out, they're about 8-12" between the items. When he is incorrect (~15%) he is picking up the one he sees after he checks them all out, not always the same one. 

The floor is either foamy-rubber matting or tile. I move everything every rep or every 2-3 reps. 

It seemed like he should be able to do it with very little touching on my part...so that's why I don't typically touch it much.

But when we go back to cloth or wood (.....'cause I'm going for what I have on hand....)... MUCH faster responses, MUCH higher reliability.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Sure sounds like you're doing everything right. If you put more scent on it, rather than just touching it lightly, does that help?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

a few thoughts:
if you change the way you scent it will be different for the dog and you need to explain to him he now is looking for something new so he knows what to look for

are you marking the pile before you send? don't send until you know he knows where to go

you can encourage a dog to go straight into the pile by putting a treat there for him to get. every dog i have seen this done with ran to the pile, ate the treat,and then immediately started scenting.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

When I did the heavy scent earlier (and a second session just now), I got the metal warm in 3-4 places. Our first rep with a 'new' item, I only set the right one out, cue to find, he goes "wow! I found it right here!" and on the second rep I put out the others or I hide the item in the room (one or the other.... never both...that would be NOT GOOD). 

If the pile is there, I sometimes mark, sometimes not, but if it's there, he's definitely going and goes there straight and immediately when sent. It's so hard to watch him go over all of them and say "It's not here!"

I guess we'll be putting this away for a while and we'll be doing a scent work class in a couple months and we'll ask our training group friends about this and we'll go from there.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I use hot scent for articles - rub the article enough to create some friction and build the scent. And once scented I won't use it as an unscented article for at least two days. My dogs will pick up yesterday's scent.


Me too.. hot scent works great because at most shows I am nervous anyway and adds to the scent..


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

can you borrow metal articles from someone and see if a different shape works better for him? 
Have fun tomorrow, give Ann a big hug for me!


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## dobedvm (Nov 19, 2009)

Most people I know using canning rings use them because their dog has an aversion to metal articles. 

Does your dog already have a problem with metal? It may be stress and avoidance... when he's picking wrong articles, is he going for leather? 

Are the canning rings easy for him to pick up? One of the things I've noticed is that many dogs in this area using them have major problems picking them up - someone has altered theirs to have a "handle" of sorts by combining two rings, and its helped. 

When my dog is too excited or too stressed at the pile, he doesn't full scent and he will just pick and grab articles - 
and if he's moving to fast, the minute he gets a whiff of the right article, he will pick one up and get his butt outta the pile - he has a long schnozz, so this means that he often picks the article right NEXT to the correct one. I've had to really slow him down in articles.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

He will pick up metal of various sorts, the rings, metal watering can, light tools (...he doesn't like the heavy ones and I don't make him!), big screws, coins, chain (not my intent...don't want teeth caught!), keys... The canning rings are because I'm cheap and really can't currently justify purchasing a set of articles. We don't have any obedience friends to temporarily borrow from. Our dog friends don't like obedience!

We're only in training-mode, no real or fake leather articles. He is NOT picking up other items in the environment if they're in a pile. He will bring one back after checking them all. If it's a room search and he can't find it, he sometimes tries to bring back something else. 

They aren't the most easy things in the world to pick up, but I don't think he struggles much either. The only things that are impossible for him to pick up are flat paper and hard frisbees stuck to the ground.

Thanks for the comments. I've enjoyed your blog posts where you're super descriptive about your training!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Have you tried soup cans? There is a guy out this way that uses soup cans as his metal articles.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Off to find some cans....and a permenant marker so that we don't have a cooking disaster later.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Although, I suppose it's easier if they're empty...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

RedDogs said:


> Although, I suppose it's easier if they're empty...


:dblthumb2


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

How do you get rid of sharp edges? I used to have one of the can openers that pried (pryed?) off the top, so no sharp edges... but it's no longer alive. 

The dogs wanted to have canned goods for dinner. It was really hard to take off the paper without touching it. I probably still contaminated the can... 

He readily picked up a full can multiple times. But then I transfered it to a sticky-nose-touch to an upended full can. And then set out 2+ others (non scented). I'd tried this with magnets before but it was taking too long to get a good touch. He's doing much better with the cans. He was going to the right one 75% of the time, I would feed 'at source' (as our scentwork friends would say), toss a piece away and reset for the next rep, using my feet to move the cans. 

Super helpful suggestion, even if we're taking a slight detour!

There's still some sticky residue on the outside of the cans (from the glue)...should I be washing that off so it's not a source for the scent to be residing? Or is it not a big deal at this point? The paper is all off.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I would wash them to get the sticky glue off. I would file or sand paper any sharp edges.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I agree with the above comments that shape might have something to do with it...let us know how you do with the soup cans.
I also have found that metal articles are more prone to "cool off" than wood or leather and colder items do not hold scent as well as warmer ones. I too tend to "hot scent" the metal, especially if it still feels very cold to me after a car ride etc.
Many dogs have an aversion to metal...it takes lots of practice and rewarding to get past it sometimes. (I am thrilled that my little Sam loves to pick up empty coke and beer cans that he finds on walks. He will carry them proudly for quite some time.)
Good luck!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

A tiny update, we have friends who are very very good with scent work. They understand it -extremely- well. And we asked for their help.

- Hands are not very smelly. And esp in winter. We don't have a lot of sweat glands on our palms.
- They were amazed at what the dogs are asked to do... really commenting it's just not a lot of scent. They half-jokingly suggested armpit sweat instead of hand sweat. The trouble is that armpit sweat (and elbow sweat and knee sweat and other kinds) are very differnet and many dogs trained on one will NOT indicate to a different type as a 'match.' So more training involved...or...not be embarassed/grossed to use non-hand-sweat in the ring. Are there rules about that?!!
- The odor is NOT distinctive as our dogs live with us and breathe it in all the time. Unlike cadaver or narcotics or those sorts of things that are different than what the dogs are normally experiencing.
- It would be helpful to start with a massive amount of scent at the beginning. Unfortunately we couldn't figure out how to do that. 
- They couldn't think of any reason why rubbing an article would be able to 'over scent' it at all.... 

We tried to do a setup like used for training dogs for their types of scent work (scent of a gauze pad I'd held for 20-30 minutes in a hole...another hole without), marking the moment the dog scents it, feeding in position. And after a few reps, he started to paw at/try to retrieve/ get excited at the heavy box. But not just the scent one. He also did the same thing to the other. He either didn't understand the difference or there just wasn't enough scent (it was pooling underneath where the hole was).

The best recommendation was to tie down dowel rods/spoons/some unfamiliar item to a peg board, and then tie down ONE scented one. Mark/reinforce for indicating the scented one. And only after he's reliabily indicating do we go to loose ones. This would isolate the 'scenting' part from the 'retrieving' part of the chain. We want to use a different item than things we've used before, because our metal rings and dumbbells, etc clearly say "retrieve" to him. and we don't want to be thinking retrieve thoughts yet. 

So... I've gotta go to the store and get some supplies. And figure out how to make my hands sweat. And it's probably one of those things that the more you try the harder it is!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Interesting. Scent is so complex and fascinating. When I had my sheltie I had a search and rescue trainer come and help. She knew nothing about obedience and the little we did didn't seem to help. I was never successful. I hated tie-down but found it worked really well for Scout. It's great because the dog can't be wrong.

I do wonder how true some ideas I hear about scent are true. Such as the over-scenting idea, etc.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

while I don't doubt your friends' expertise, dogs who do utility articles smell hand scent quite easily, and even if you only "touch" the articles in 2 or 3 places, with your hand, they can find it without much trouble. A lot of the people who show OTCH dogs only touch the article in a couple of places. A dog can smell one drop of gasoline in a 55 gallon drum of water, or something buried 20 feet underground, they most certainly can smell your hand scent on an article, be it metal, leather, or wood.
While the smell may or may not be distinctive, it's the most RECENT scent that they are supposed to be looking for. That's why we can take a set of articles that we used the day before (or a couple of hours before once your dog is pretty good at it) and scent a different one and the dog can find it easily.
It's a matter of communicating to them what it is, exactly, you want them to do.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have to agree with Barb on this one. Dogs have an amazing scenting ability, hand scent has plenty of smell to it. The dogs have the ability there, the challenge in the training is getting across to the dog that that is the scent they are looking for. Once the dog truly understands what it is supposed to be looking for, you realize how easy the task really is for the dog.

Hand scent is the only scenting allowed. Swiping your armpits, licking your hands, etc, should be NQ'd (trust me, people have tried it). 

Overscenting is definitely possible, especially if the dog is used to seeking out less scent and then gets overwhelmed by a nose full of scent it wasn't expecting. That is often done by trainers in the ring whose nerves have already made their scent stronger, and then they scent their articles even more than they usually do. I tend to use a lot of scent when first teaching and then back off to about four twists of the dowel once the dog knows what he's looking for. But there are many handlers who will just hold the article for a second or two and the dog can still find that scent.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Thanks for the comments.

My scent reference book has been "K9 suspect discrimination"... good sciencey sections on what scent is, how it's retained, how dog's senses work, etc... But it's only making me more confused. 

I'm not sure how to temprorarily increase the amount of scent before decreasing it... and keeping it separate from the retrieve piece. Maybe an item in my scent jars ...something that holds more scent? Not sure...something to think about and get back to.

It's so interesting to see all the differences in obedience-scentwork-culture and SAR-scentwork-culture and narcotics-scentwork-culture. It makes it hard to know what's superstitious, what's true, what's not, and how different parts are the same and not!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> It's so interesting to see all the differences in obedience-scentwork-culture and SAR-scentwork-culture and narcotics-scentwork-culture. It makes it hard to know what's superstitious, what's true, what's not, and how different parts are the same and not!


I agree! When I tried to get help many years ago--it wasn't that the SAR person didn't understand scent, but she didn't do obedience and didn't use or train scent the way obedience competitors did. So it didn't really help me.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I understand Connie Cleveland has written an article about a new method for teaching scent discrimination that starts just with scenting and not a retrieve. I haven't read it yet since I'm happy with the way I've taught it so far, but it would be worth reading. I've heard a lot of people that liked the idea.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I read of the article (though not the actual article) and it's what we had tried last week with a slightly more 'clean and controlled' set up. We couldn't see a change in behavior at the empty or scented station and that made it hard to know if he was noting a difference or not. I'll be using a more heavily scented item this week to work on that... It's what makes most sense to me... I just haven't been able to bring myself to do tie downs or food on the item.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> I read of the article (though not the actual article) and it's what we had tried last week with a slightly more 'clean and controlled' set up. We couldn't see a change in behavior at the empty or scented station and that made it hard to know if he was noting a difference or not. I'll be using a more heavily scented item this week to work on that... It's what makes most sense to me... I just haven't been able to bring myself to do tie downs or food on the item.


Morgan Spector (Clicker Training for Obedience) has a clicker based method of training scent discrimination that I love. I usually teach any exercise from several different angles/methods and I find the clicker method and Around the Clock work well together. Around the Clock uses food, but you might find Spector's method of teaching the fluencies very interesting.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Morgan Spector (Clicker Training for Obedience) has a clicker based method of training scent discrimination that I love. I usually teach any exercise from several different angles/methods and I find the clicker method and Around the Clock work well together. Around the Clock uses food, but you might find Spector's method of teaching the fluencies very interesting.


I pulled out my copy and re-read that section. It sounds like on of the things I did for a few sessions. 

I think the more I learn about training the more difficult it is for me! With his training... the scent discrimination/indication isn't separated from the retrieve. I really didn't like it when my dog made errors and i had ot take the item from him (which could have slightly damaged my retrieve OR slightly reinforced the incorrect response/retrieve but the damaged the retrieve when the chain was not finished.) I'm a huge clicker enthusiast... and one of my more recent thinking-things is that I really really don't want shaping or shaping processes associated with my final behaviors. That probably deserves it's own post when I can be more clear about it....

Around the clock: I watched the DVD this week (bowwowflicks....fairly happy with the service but not so happy with anything I ordered to watch...!). Comment 1: It wouldn't play on my computer, I had to use my parent's DVD player. And wow. My family will NEVER let me forget we watched it. At one point my brother said "I think she's funny. She could be a comedian." I like the systematic-ness of it. But I'm so anti-luring that I really don't want food on it. 

I fully admit I'm over thinking this as well as almost everything else I do with my dogs (and student dogs....but I don't delimma over every little thing iwth them, I'll give an option of two things if I'm really not sure which, but otherwise I make the decisions quickly!).

Again, thanks to everyone for sharing!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

have you been hearing "rescent, reheat, recheese" in your dreams at night? :

While the video is tedious and a little annoying to watch, I love using ATC. But pretty much everything I train is initially lured so that part doesn't bother me


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> have you been hearing "rescent, reheat, recheese" in your dreams at night? :


That!!! and... "Find it! Good find! Find it! Good find!"

My family is now repeatedly saying both of the above, as well as talking about the cheese.... she said something at the beginning about how it doesn't have to be refrigerated because the product says not to... and for whatever reason they think that is HILARIOUS.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> That!!! and... "Find it! Good find! Find it! Good find!"


And you're saying that with the New York accent included, right? :bowl:

I have her heeling video and fell asleep when I watched it. 

Although at least I was able to wake up and finish and use the ideas from it. I fell asleep during Anne Marie Silverton's video and never could get myself to finish it.


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