# December field training



## MillionsofPeaches

I am!!! We have 70's in the afternoon now. We haven't trained very much in the last two weeks besides some quick drill work and some hand thrown marks. Yesterday we went out in a field with some good cover and that was fun. Katniss cracked me up because suddenly she forgot her straight backs and kept trying to take angle backs. I swear every time we get somewhere she regresses on something else. So I went back to simplifying it and she finally remembered it. I didn't do any angle backs to make sure she wasn't confused. I don't know why she did this she's always been good at taking backs, even on the right or left command on those backs. But anyway, maybe she just had a brain fart. It happens. 

Then we practiced walk up doubles and she did perfect, they were hard with cover but still did great. It was more about the element of surprise and her sit on the whistle and my handling of the gun. I am getting quicker at it and she is getting good at it. It helps that she seems steady because then I don't have to focus on her and can focus on the gun stuff. I am NOT a coordinated person so this is quite the feat for me. 

Then I ran her on a blind from the center of the field crossing a paved road and up a hill. She's never gone over a road before. I don't know why I just never found a field with a road in it or if I did I didn't think to do it. It was interesting. She did good, took a straight line until the road. Just as I thought, she suddenly thought that road was her cue to get off her line. The road made her turn and want to go down it. When she gets a mind of her own her tail starts swishing all mischeviously and I know to be ready for a quick whistle, ha ha. But I sat her a few times and after each one she would take my cast for a few steps and try to go back to her way on that road. So I'd send her back and she'd take a step back and then turn right or left. It was a lot of back and forth overs to get her back on that line but she relented and she finally just took my cast for real and went on to the pile. But it was what I thought she'd do so I'm glad I got to work on that. I'll have to make that a normal occurrence now that I know where it is. She is a nut. 

Peaches on the other hand suddenly decided she wants to do more than basic marks, well okay then! So we are just working on some simple backs and overs and pile work. So far she is having fun and I don't do much since she gets bored so fast. She also is getting her doubles down. I'd like her to get a WC in the spring. 

Anyway, tomorrow I'm not sure what I want to do yet. I've got to think about it.


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## Claudia M

Have not trained since before Thanksgiving. We got a foot of snow, muddy yards and yucky weather. Darcy had two surgeries to remove growths (came back benign). Hard to keep a flat coat down, she really needs to be run. This weekend will be busy as well with a wedding so hopefully we will train again the weekend after.


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## Claudia M

Rub it in Shelby! 70 degrees! Nice.


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## Vhuynh2

We're going out only about 1-2 times a week. It has been really cold here. We got snow the day after Thanksgiving; it is always nice to wake up to snow during the holidays when it's just enough so everything is white, but not enough to stick to the roads. 

We had been working on a handling drill that I really like, but since it involves so many whistle sits, Molly's momentum went to hell, even on a memory blind. So I stopped (will ask trainer for advice tomorrow), and did only marks one day. The next time we went out, we did a different drill (to practice carrying a line) and Molly LOVED that drill. She was breaking to go again and when we went to do our memory blind from a new location with a different picture, she broke on the first send. I'm glad it didn't take her long to recover.


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## boomers_dawn

We haven't trained since the day before Thanksgiving it snowed and sleeted then stayed below freezing till 2 days ago so we had the ice rink effect. It's melted now, if it stays that way and doesn't snow or sleet anymore I think we'll have group this weekend.

Gladys went to class tonight - Dee Dee is signed up but at the height of being in season - so Gladys went for fun and bonding. We did whistle recalls with the others then did some handling drills over the obedience jumps, walking baseball, and finished with lining drills.

FT Goldens asked some questions about "classes" in another thread that I didn't want to hijack too much so I'm going to address it here, since we just had class and I thought about it.

From what I hear, we are very fortunate in our area of the country with the amount of "classes" - (usually not in a true "classroom" setting )- available to us.

Our obedience club has a true class held in our club obedience ring:
Obedience Dog Training Club of Waterbury - CLASSES
As you can see, it's intro, what we do is tailored to what the student wants - some just want the dog to sit and come when called when out hiking; some want to give the dog a job; some want to hunt; some want to do HT; no one has come in wanting to do FT yet, but one student got bit by the bug and moved on to a FT pro.

I enrolled Dee Dee for her and me to work on handling drills. This is suitable for Dee Dee indoors at this time, she's working on over/back/angle backs, LT/RT backs, come in and pick ups

Usually people re-register until they get what they wanted, so the class is all levels, different types of dogs and goals, so for example, tonight Gladys and I did our thing while the others worked on their rudimentary fetch, whistle sit, and handling skills on the other side of the room.

E collars aren't allowed in dog training facilities in the State of CT so if people want special services like collar clinic, flushing dog clinic, bird work, he sets up a session or sessions outside of the club at some area fields. Sometimes he gives people wings or has sessions with pigeons or ducks. 

There are 2 "pros" I've heard of who do "train the trainer" (there may be more, but these are the ones I know of:
I only hear wonderful about this one:
Swift River Retrievers - Training

One of our club alumni went to this one and said it was great:
Pond View Retrievers: Retriever training field and yard classes with over the shoulder instruction

These are too far for me with work and house etc.

Additionally, I heard Yankee Golden Retriever Club has newbie "class" out in the field every summer, put on by volunteers experienced in field work.

And our club, SBGRC, has special training sessions in the field for new handlers and young dogs every spring/summer. They extended it one year to "several novice senior handlers" which I lovingly referred to as "Senior for Dummies" - they helped me sooooo much getting Gladys and ME ready for SH.

Let me know if you have any more specific questions FT


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## hotel4dogs

I've never found FT Goldens to be threatening 




boomers_dawn said:


> FT Goldens asked some questions about "classes" in another threat that I didn't want to hijack to much so I'm going to address it here, since we just had class and I thought about it.
> 
> )


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## FTGoldens

boomers_dawn said:


> Let me know if you have any more specific questions FT


Thanks for the explanation! The classes sound interesting, particularly for the persons wanting to learn some fundamentals about retriever training. I'm sure that the teaching concepts learned in this setting will transition into the field quite well.
I have more questions, but have to get some work done ... so more later.

The ever threatening,
FTGoldens


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## boomers_dawn

Hee heee! spelling corrected :
it was late...


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## gdgli

MoP

Confusion on casts?
Take a look at how you are giving casts by standing in front of a mirror and giving your arm movement. Is your body and posture consistent? Is your voice consistent? Loudness of voice?


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## gdgli

Claudia M said:


> Rub it in Shelby! 70 degrees! Nice.


Don't be jealous. There are alligators in her training ponds.
(Just kidding.)


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## gdgli

Vhuynh2 said:


> We're going out only about 1-2 times a week. It has been really cold here. We got snow the day after Thanksgiving; it is always nice to wake up to snow during the holidays when it's just enough so everything is white, but not enough to stick to the roads.
> 
> We had been working on a handling drill that I really like, but since it involves so many whistle sits, Molly's momentum went to hell, even on a memory blind. So I stopped (will ask trainer for advice tomorrow), and did only marks one day. The next time we went out, we did a different drill (to practice carrying a line) and Molly LOVED that drill. She was breaking to go again and when we went to do our memory blind from a new location with a different picture, she broke on the first send. I'm glad it didn't take her long to recover.


Many dogs will lose their momentum when you do a lot of stopping drills. Dogs are not stupid, why go quickly when you are going to be stopped anyway? Try to balance what you are doing.


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## gdgli

boomers dawn

The two trainers that you mentioned have quite a good reputation.

Many newbies who come out to the field don't have a clue as to where to start.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Thanks, G, I thought of that while it was happening and tried to figure it out. This morning she was back to normal. She took the straight backs and the angle backs so who knows? I will keep being very observant on my own gestures. i've been trying not to say the casts out loud and just use gestures so that could also be part of it, too. I am trying to save my words for when they count now that she knows the gestures. Maybe it was a combination of no words that confused her.....?


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## MillionsofPeaches

There ARE gators in the swamps....Luckily in my ponds they are SUPPOSED to be maintained for gators....but you just never know.


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## gdgli

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Thanks, G, I thought of that while it was happening and tried to figure it out. This morning she was back to normal. She took the straight backs and the angle backs so who knows? I will keep being very observant on my own gestures. i've been trying not to say the casts out loud and just use gestures so that could also be part of it, too. I am trying to save my words for when they count now that she knows the gestures. Maybe it was a combination of no words that confused her.....?


I noticed with Buffy that my voice is kind of loud and intimidating. I get a more consistent response when I tone it down.
Also, I need to pay more attention to my posture.


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## Alaska7133

My dogs are completely different with my voice than my husband's. It's not fair, he gets way more respect than I do from the dogs. 

We're definitely in our winter training mode. Snow is so nice now to give us that reflection of light that we desperately need. Our days will be down to 4.5 hours with the sun so low in the sky, you swear you can't see it sometimes. Lucy went into heat yesterday, so we're going to modify training and keep it very controlled for 3 weeks. We still aren't solid on whistle sits, so I'm going back to sit-nic-sit when she's by my side. I have no idea why whistling has been her problem, to me it's so basic. But now that she's in heat, we'll hopefully be completely on track by the end of her heat cycle. I've dropped any force to pile or 3 handed casting until we're done with whistle sitting. I never thought we could be stuck on something so long.

Last Sunday I trained with a spaniel friend. She said she hadn't trained in 2 months. She was a bit harder on her dogs than she needed to be. I think not training for 2 months wasn't her dogs fault but hers. But what can you say to someone that is more mad at themselves and takes it out on their dogs. I hope I don't do that.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Its hard to watch when someone really chews their dogs out. 
Katniss had a hard time on Whistle sits when out in the field but we weren't using a collar at the time. She knew what was expected but when she was away from me she had it in her mind that she could go hunting without listening to me. My trainer at the time didn't think she could handle a collar and it stalled us for four months. Can't do much if the dog won't sit on a whistle. Once I got the collar she figured out in a day that oh boy, mom, does mean business. Do you think that she just wants to do it on her own too, Stacey?


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## ktkins7

boomers_dawn said:


> FT Goldens asked some questions about "classes" in another thread that I didn't want to hijack too much so I'm going to address it here, since we just had class and I thought about it.
> 
> From what I hear, we are very fortunate in our area of the country with the amount of "classes" - (usually not in a true "classroom" setting )- available to us.
> 
> Our obedience club has a true class held in our club obedience ring:
> Obedience Dog Training Club of Waterbury - CLASSES
> As you can see, it's intro, what we do is tailored to what the student wants - some just want the dog to sit and come when called when out hiking; some want to give the dog a job; some want to hunt; some want to do HT; no one has come in wanting to do FT yet, but one student got bit by the bug and moved on to a FT pro.
> 
> I enrolled Dee Dee for her and me to work on handling drills. This is suitable for Dee Dee indoors at this time, she's working on over/back/angle backs, LT/RT backs, come in and pick ups
> 
> Usually people re-register until they get what they wanted, so the class is all levels, different types of dogs and goals, so for example, tonight Gladys and I did our thing while the others worked on their rudimentary fetch, whistle sit, and handling skills on the other side of the room.
> 
> E collars aren't allowed in dog training facilities in the State of CT so if people want special services like collar clinic, flushing dog clinic, bird work, he sets up a session or sessions outside of the club at some area fields. Sometimes he gives people wings or has sessions with pigeons or ducks.
> 
> There are 2 "pros" I've heard of who do "train the trainer" (there may be more, but these are the ones I know of:
> I only hear wonderful about this one:
> Swift River Retrievers - Training
> 
> One of our club alumni went to this one and said it was great:
> Pond View Retrievers: Retriever training field and yard classes with over the shoulder instruction
> 
> These are too far for me with work and house etc.
> 
> Additionally, I heard Yankee Golden Retriever Club has newbie "class" out in the field every summer, put on by volunteers experienced in field work.
> 
> And our club, SBGRC, has special training sessions in the field for new handlers and young dogs every spring/summer. They extended it one year to "several novice senior handlers" which I lovingly referred to as "Senior for Dummies" - they helped me sooooo much getting Gladys and ME ready for SH.
> 
> Let me know if you have any more specific questions FT


Earlier today I did what I could to answer FT Goldens questions in the thread where it was asked  I'm one of the newbies who had no idea where to look for a trainer. And I definitely needed a trainer because I've never done it before. I'm actually using Pond View Retrievers that you mentioned and it's been great so far. It's about an hour away from my house. Wish it was closer but it works. Here is I put in the other thread. Most of it came from my whole two lessons, my initial email with the trainer, and the Pond View Retriever web site.

I'm using a trainer that I found online through an internet search and another member on the forum had heard good things about him. I just decided that after one lesson that if I didn't like him for whatever reason I would try to find someone else. Here is the site for the trainer that I'm using: Pond View Retrievers: Retriever Training and Handler Training for Hunt Test and Waterfowling in MA, CT and RI So far I like working with him. If you click on where it says Training on the left side of the page it describes his program a bit.

Ella and I are only at the very beginning. We have had two of the "Yard Work" classes, building the obedience to be able to move forward. The first class was working on heel and getting her to remain in a sit until I release her from it. Also introduced using a whistle. As you can see we are on recall right now and once we finish that we'll start with the ecollar conditioning. These lessons are private one-on-one lessons that are held on field on the trainer's property. It seems to me that he is more of training me how to train Ella. For example, he'll use Ella to show me how to do an exercise then have me do it in front of him with Ella to make sure that I'm doing it correctly.

At the end of each lesson we are given a homework assignment with certain goals. Once we accomplish these goals we contact the trainer for the next lesson. If any issues or questions come up when working on the homework I can contact the trainer for help.

For when your ready for them he also has the field classes. I'm going to go an observe one as soon as I get a chance. The trainer has them a couple of times per week and they meet in a central location. He emails the schedule for the week and there are usually three different classes. From the emails I've gotten most of them seem to be set up to be similar to hunt tests. In the initial email he did say that there are live birds to use at an additional cost. That's all I really know about these classes so far. The classes we've done so far we've used bumpers. He gave us some duck wings to get her interested but she still won't pick them up. We're also working on getting the retriever in her to come out, which has come leaps and bounds since our last lesson.

For the level he trains, the website says "all levels of retriever AKC Hunt Test titles" and also to prepare for hunting season.

I think I've answered as much as I can. Others with more experience should be able to answer more. Like I said, Ella and I are complete newbies in this. Hope this helps a bit though.

Katie & Ella


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## Claudia M

Stacey, I have read that women are at a disadvantage in training dogs especially due to the tone of voice. But those mongrels are not dumb. Sometimes I can just whisper to Rose and she does everything perfect and then there are those times when she just shows me the paw and have to amp my voice. Ohhh does she tick me off sometimes! And it is like she has my "ticked off barometer" in her head because she also knows if mom is just barely ticked off or if she really ticked off. And then my daughter has to add wood to the fire, she just bursts out laughing because supposedly I look funny when I get ticked off and she thinks Rose finds it funny as well.


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## Alaska7133

DH said he will try her on whistle sits and see if she acts any differently. I think that will be interesting to see what she does. I don't think we'll get much difference. It might be that she's had so much obedience training that she's so used to sitting when I stop and walking when I walk, that she still just doesn't get it. I never knew it would be so hard to do whistle sits.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Interesting, Stacey, that you thought of that because I thought of that in my head but didn't write it. Have you tried throwing bumpers out and then on the way in make her sit? That is how I did it with Katniss because of the obedience thing. She was so used to sitting when I stopped that I wasn't sure she was understanding the exercise. So I started tossing a bumper and she'd go after it but on her way in I'd blow the whistle and tell her to sit. Also I'd do it at random times in the house while I was cooking dinner or whatever. Maybe that will work.


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## Alaska7133

Lucy will sit only when she gets close with the bumper. Lucy then will creep forward to me. Lucy's really not sure what I want and I can't figure out how to get her to understand. There isn't a leash/collar that you can pop when they are farther away. I think she really is so good at coming into heel position with a bird and just can't imagine why in the heck I want her to stop out in the field... I don't know if I'm reading more into than I should.

Last Sunday when I was training with my spaniel friend, we tried my friend's spaniel whistle sit methods. Spaniels have to sit not just on a whistle, but a whistle when the bird flushes. Which is a really hard whistle for a dog to sit on when the bird is flying up in front of their face. My spaniel friend is only 20 years old. She's an amazing kid (I'm actually older than her parents). She's self taught by only reading a book if you can imagine. So she tried helping me. It crossed my mind to just drop Lucy off with her for a week and have her fix the problem. Obviously I'm somehow missing the boat on something really basic. It was hard watching this 20 yr old kid whistle sit her spaniels easily. She's going to be a great trainer someday! Meanwhile, I'll be over in the corner trying to figure out why Lucy won't whistle sit 10 years from now.


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## FTGoldens

boomers_dawn said:


> There are 2 "pros" I've heard of who do "train the trainer" (there may be more, but these are the ones I know of:
> I only hear wonderful about this one:
> Swift River Retrievers - Training
> 
> ---
> 
> Additionally, I heard Yankee Golden Retriever Club has newbie "class" out in the field every summer, put on by volunteers experienced in field work.
> 
> And our club, SBGRC, has special training sessions in the field for new handlers and young dogs every spring/summer. They extended it one year to "several novice senior handlers" which I lovingly referred to as "Senior for Dummies" - they helped me sooooo much getting Gladys and ME ready for SH.
> 
> Let me know if you have any more specific questions FT


Although I've never met him, I've only heard good things about Buck at Swift River.

I believe that I know a member of Yankee GRC who is involved in the Club's training sessions. I encourage everyone to go to this type of club training events. Not only do you often get some good training opportunities, but you meet folks which may become training partners.

FTGoldens


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## Vhuynh2

Molly never really understood whistle sits with the heeling and stop/sit either. She was also used to halts in obedience. What did help was when we started back to the pile, I would whistle and then say "sit" when she was coming in with the bumper. If she didn't do it right away, I would close the gap and walk towards her and tell her/whistle again. That's how we do drop on recall in obedience too; if the dog does not drop and keeps coming in, walk towards the dog. I always questioned how things piece together in handling, but they really do. I didn't know how the whistle sit on the way in would teach her the whistle sit on her way out, but one day I whistled sat her on the way out and she sat perfectly.


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## Vhuynh2

I saw my trainer today. We did a mark-blind drill. The marks were live pigeons and the blinds were bumpers. Trainer shows me the blind and I told him that Molly would NEVER get there. It was 120 yards long and there was a big bush 3/4 of the way out just left of the line and I was sure that Molly would get stuck at that bush. Molly has never even done a cold blind that long before. He said we'll work through it. He threw the pigeon and Molly gets it. She loves those things. Then, I send her for the blind, and there's a hill that actually pulls her a little to the right, away from the bush. But she took a very good initial line and I didn't have to stop her until she got past the bush. She eventually gets there in three whistles. To ME, that is amazing. This girl used to pop on SIGHT BLINDS every 10 yards. MY GOODNESS look how far we have come!!! 

We repeated the marks and blinds but added more suction. The third time was difficult; the old fall was right on the line that Molly was taking to the blind, but I got her through it. I just can't believe how far we've come. I don't really push her when I train by myself, so I had no idea Molly was even capable of doing a 120 yard cold blind. A few weeks ago my trainer saw that Molly was doing a lot of scalloping on blinds so he gave me a drill to work on. She's taking casts away from suction a lot better now.


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## CarmenK

boomers_dawn said:


> There are 2 "pros" I've heard of who do "train the trainer" (there may be more, but these are the ones I know of:
> I only hear wonderful about this one:
> Swift River Retrievers - Training
> 
> One of our club alumni went to this one and said it was great:
> Pond View Retrievers: Retriever training field and yard classes with over the shoulder instruction



I can recommend both of them. 

Buck at Swift Rivers offers Train the Trainer classes once a week. It's like an introduction for newbies to his program and tune up instruction for advanced handlers. Unfortunately, he is too far away from me.

Jim at Pond view Retrievers holds three group classes during the week. One is a concept building class, the two others are hunt test set ups. What I like most is, he cuts down his set ups to the level of each dog and handler. 

@ training in December: I've done a lot of yard work these days. Today I was lucky to have a small group training, even if it was a bit rainy but not too cold yet.


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## hotel4dogs

So so important, and something I think many (including me for sure) forget to do. Sit back and look not at how far you have to go, but at how far you have come!! 
Way to go!




Vhuynh2 said:


> I saw my trainer today. We did a mark-blind drill. The marks were live pigeons and the blinds were bumpers. Trainer shows me the blind and I told him that Molly would NEVER get there. It was 120 yards long and there was a big bush 3/4 of the way out just left of the line and I was sure that Molly would get stuck at that bush. Molly has never even done a cold blind that long before. He said we'll work through it. He threw the pigeon and Molly gets it. She loves those things. Then, I send her for the blind, and there's a hill that actually pulls her a little to the right, away from the bush. But she took a very good initial line and I didn't have to stop her until she got past the bush. She eventually gets there in three whistles. To ME, that is amazing. This girl used to pop on SIGHT BLINDS every 10 yards. MY GOODNESS look how far we have come!!!
> 
> We repeated the marks and blinds but added more suction. The third time was difficult; the old fall was right on the line that Molly was taking to the blind, but I got her through it. I just can't believe how far we've come. I don't really push her when I train by myself, so I had no idea Molly was even capable of doing a 120 yard cold blind. A few weeks ago my trainer saw that Molly was doing a lot of scalloping on blinds so he gave me a drill to work on. She's taking casts away from suction a lot better now.


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## hotel4dogs

I have found, in all venues, that when you get this type of response you have moved too fast for the dog to comprehend the task. You generally need to back up and reteach in smaller bits.
For Lucy, I would start with sitting her within a few yards of you. Give her a firm STAY command if she starts to creep. Walk out to her, take the bumper from her, praise her, about half the time. The rest of the time call her in. She will not know if you are coming out, or she is heading in, and will be less likely to creep. 
When she's really good at that, reduce the amount of times you walk out to her to about 25%. 
Then start adding distance, maybe 10 yards at a time. Stop her maybe 20 yards out instead of 10, for example. Same thing, walk out about 25% of the time, take the bumper from her. 
When she is 100% with that, go on to 30 yards. If she's having trouble, go back to 10 yards. And so on. At some point you will realize that she has figured out the requirement, and you can go to pretty much any distance and she will know what to do. 
She needs to be taught, not corrected. She's obviously not sure what you want.
And yes, getting a dog to sit when a bird is flying off into their face is rather challenging 




Alaska7133 said:


> Lucy will sit only when she gets close with the bumper. Lucy then will creep forward to me. Lucy's really not sure what I want and I can't figure out how to get her to understand. There isn't a leash/collar that you can pop when they are farther away. I think she really is so good at coming into heel position with a bird and just can't imagine why in the heck I want her to stop out in the field... I don't know if I'm reading more into than I should.
> 
> Last Sunday when I was training with my spaniel friend, we tried my friend's spaniel whistle sit methods. Spaniels have to sit not just on a whistle, but a whistle when the bird flushes. Which is a really hard whistle for a dog to sit on when the bird is flying up in front of their face. My spaniel friend is only 20 years old. She's an amazing kid (I'm actually older than her parents). She's self taught by only reading a book if you can imagine. So she tried helping me. It crossed my mind to just drop Lucy off with her for a week and have her fix the problem. Obviously I'm somehow missing the boat on something really basic. It was hard watching this 20 yr old kid whistle sit her spaniels easily. She's going to be a great trainer someday! Meanwhile, I'll be over in the corner trying to figure out why Lucy won't whistle sit 10 years from now.


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## FTGoldens

Vhuynh2 said:


> I saw my trainer today. We did a mark-blind drill. The marks were live pigeons and the blinds were bumpers. Trainer shows me the blind and I told him that Molly would NEVER get there. It was 120 yards long and there was a big bush 3/4 of the way out just left of the line and I was sure that Molly would get stuck at that bush. Molly has never even done a cold blind that long before. He said we'll work through it. He threw the pigeon and Molly gets it. She loves those things. Then, I send her for the blind, and there's a hill that actually pulls her a little to the right, away from the bush. But she took a very good initial line and I didn't have to stop her until she got past the bush. She eventually gets there in three whistles. To ME, that is amazing. This girl used to pop on SIGHT BLINDS every 10 yards. MY GOODNESS look how far we have come!!!
> 
> We repeated the marks and blinds but added more suction. The third time was difficult; the old fall was right on the line that Molly was taking to the blind, but I got her through it. I just can't believe how far we've come. I don't really push her when I train by myself, so I had no idea Molly was even capable of doing a 120 yard cold blind. A few weeks ago my trainer saw that Molly was doing a lot of scalloping on blinds so he gave me a drill to work on. She's taking casts away from suction a lot better now.


This is awesome! 
Sometimes we don't have enough confidence in our dogs to try something that we think may be over their heads ... if they do it > GREAT! If they don't quite get there, we can work with them to finish the retrieve and make it a training opportunity.

FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens

Okay, others have shared their training days, so here's mine for today (I only had a few minutes):
[Note: One of the dogs I'm training is moving from Qual level to All Age level, this dog's marking is very strong ... blinds, hmmm, that's the weak point, so I'm focusing on blinds for a while.]
Five Land Blinds
#1: Short land blind (around 125 yards) tucked up against the cover at the edge of the field; pup didn't want to look in the direction at first, but after 45 - 60 seconds of discussion, we got the initial line and only a couple whistles put pup on the bumper. 
#2: Next blind was about 175 yards long and 10 - 15 degrees to the right of #1, also tucked into the edge of the cover; purpose was to get pup comfortable taking a similar line and going past a short blind. As expected, I got some flare from the initial send; it was so much that I felt that the pup had lied to me, so I called pup back (pup was only 10 yards out). I worked with pup and got a marvelous initial line ... one cast to the bumper.
#3: This blind was the shortest of the set and only about 100 yards out, middle of the field (it was directly in line with a longer blind, to again work on taking a similar line on a second blind). Pup took one cast to get to the bumper ... it was easy.
#4: This blind was about 250 yards, directly over the top of #3. Pup only flared about 15 feet from blind #3, so I was satisfied and let pup roll out to about 150 yards, when pup started to suck in to the right, behind #3. I stopped pup and gave a left angle back, which pup took to the small patch of cover in the middle of the field where the bumper was. Pup got into the cover, but blew out of it quickly without finding the bumper. I handled pup into the cover patch at least 5 - 6 times, without success ... pup seemed to be getting nervous, so I sat pup, then started walking toward pup while blowing an occasional sit whistle to keep pup from heading out of the area. I recommenced handling pup back into the cover when I was within 100 yards ... GOT IT ... GOOD DOG!
#5: At roughly 300 yards, the line was between blinds #2 and #4. Pup took a good initial line to about 150 yard, started drifting to the right (giving in to the terrain); gave pup a left angle back, which put pup across the line, so I followed that with a right angle back ... pup missed the bumper by a couple feet. Two quick handles right at the bumper put pup on the bumper. 
No burns, no nicks. 
Just working on making pup comfortable running all sorts of blinds.

FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

FT,
How do you find the balance between marks and blinds? How do not loose their marking ability but still maintain their dependence on you for direction on blinds? They seem counterproductive to each other - marks and blinds.


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## hotel4dogs

It was a pretty mild day here, so we did go to Dan's. Ran a nice triple, then some technical singles. Then said screw it, let's go hunting.....
Geez this dog can HUNT.


----------



## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> FT,
> How do you find the balance between marks and blinds? How do not loose their marking ability but still maintain their dependence on you for direction on blinds? They seem counterproductive to each other - marks and blinds.


Geesh, you ask tough questions!
Firstly, a word about balance. In addition to blinds and marks, there are other areas in which we must evaluate each dog to determine if they are in balance. For example, they have to be balanced to do long marks and short marks; imbalance shows up when the dog blows past all of the short marks, or when the dog starts hunting short on all of the long marks.
Now, more directly as to your question. It really depends on the particular dog. The one that I'm training now is, as I mentioned before, a very natural marker ... he watches the birds all the way through the arc and to the ground and remembers where they fell. I probably fostered that ability by not starting handling him until he was about 1 1/2 years old; but then, I may have made blinds more difficult by allowing him to be the one totally in charge of retrieving for such a long time. (But, for me anyway, that's okay, I am used to dealing with that issue.) 
Generally speaking, if a dog's marking seems to be deteriorating, run more marks (with an emphasis on singles); if a dog's blinds are deteriorating, run more blinds. It's really just a judgment call. 
And, of course, if your pup is having a problem with a particular element of a blind (or of a mark), try to isolate that element and work on it. As I mentioned in the post about today's training, I want pup to be more comfortable running a long blind while very close to the line of a shorter blind that pup just ran.
As a second point about the blinds-marks balance: a long time, very, very successful retriever trainer once pointed out to me that "loose dogs mark better, tight dogs run blinds better." So, that's another gauge to help determine if the emphasis should be on marks or blinds.

After re-reading this, let me apologize for a shoddy response, but it's the best I've got right now. If I come up with better thoughts, I'll be back!

FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> It was a pretty mild day here, so we did go to Dan's. Ran a nice triple, then some technical singles. Then said screw it, let's go hunting.....


That sounds like the definition of a perfect day!

FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs

FT Goldens, you've got that right. The only ones not happy are a couple of HUGE rooster pheasants!


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## hotel4dogs

Tito gets out of balance really easily on marks versus blinds...he's a goofball that loves running blinds. So we run very, very few blinds with him, and mostly in the water. Well when it's not iced over.



FTGoldens said:


> Geesh, you ask tough questions!
> Firstly, a word about balance. In addition to blinds and marks, there are other areas in which we must evaluate each dog to determine if they are in balance. For example, they have to be balanced to do long marks and short marks; imbalance shows up when the dog blows past all of the short marks, or when the dog starts hunting short on all of the long marks.
> Now, more directly as to your question. It really depends on the particular dog. The one that I'm training now is, as I mentioned before, a very natural marker ... he watches the birds all the way through the arc and to the ground and remembers where they fell. I probably fostered that ability by not starting handling him until he was about 1 1/2 years old; but then, I may have made blinds more difficult by allowing him to be the one totally in charge of retrieving for such a long time. (But, for me anyway, that's okay, I am used to dealing with that issue.)
> Generally speaking, if a dog's marking seems to be deteriorating, run more marks (with an emphasis on singles); if a dog's blinds are deteriorating, run more blinds. It's really just a judgment call.
> And, of course, if your pup is having a problem with a particular element of a blind (or of a mark), try to isolate that element and work on it. As I mentioned in the post about today's training, I want pup to be more comfortable running a long blind while very close to the line of a shorter blind that pup just ran.
> As a second point about the blinds-marks balance: a long time, very, very successful retriever trainer once pointed out to me that "loose dogs mark better, tight dogs run blinds better." So, that's another gauge to help determine if the emphasis should be on marks or blinds.
> 
> After re-reading this, let me apologize for a shoddy response, but it's the best I've got right now. If I come up with better thoughts, I'll be back!
> 
> FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
So how is it going on the retriever blinds again? Are you going to run spaniel tests next year for fun? Do you picture Tito being able to run a MHU on a Saturday and a MH on a Sunday? Just curious.


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## hotel4dogs

Stacey, he snapped right back to the retriever blinds except we had to do some remedial work on the water blinds. I think that was more of a hole in his training that showed up because of the looseness of the spaniel water blinds rather than a problem caused by them. Or maybe a combination of both? But since he went right back to running retriever land blinds without pause, I tend to think it's more of a hole in training.
I'd love to run more Spaniel tests just for fun, they're a blast. I think he could easily run the 2 in back to back weekends (IF he's ever ready to run MH, lol). Not on consecutive days, as our MH tests are 2 days so in order to do that he would have had to have failed on the first day  .


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## Alaska7133

So I'm trying things a bit differently with Lucy on whistle sits. I'm doing several small sessions a day. That works because she comes to work with me and I have a large empty back parking lot that's fenced and lighted. So I've been using a pinch collar with an e-collar and treats. 

First I do several verbal sit-nic-sit as she is already sitting, to reinforce the sit. I walk her to another place, sit-nic-sit. Then after a few of those, I add the whistle. Tweet-nic-tweet, then I give her a very small treat. All of that is by my side. Then I tweet-nic-tweet and start to walk away. If she sits, I walk back and treat her. If she doesn't I walk back and use verbal sit-nic-sit and start from the beginning. Every time she completes what I want, I use a verbal marker of YES and give her a tiny cookie. I'm keeping my nics's low at just barely felt. Bill Hillmann uses this method on his Traffic Cop DVD.

I'm hoping that by going all the way back to the beginning every time I work with her, that she will get the hint. The cookie does seem to really be helping. I'm not sure if the verbal marker of YES helps though.

I'm also hoping that going back to the beginning every time we train even if it's multiple times a day, that she will retain better.

I'm also throwing a couple of fun bumpers before and after I train. Then to switch her mind to training, I say my usual "Get Ready!" to let her know we are training.

DH tried her yesterday and he had the same reactions to the whistle sit that I had, so we know that she just doesn't understand what we want.

If I ever get through this whistle sit thing, I'll write a book!


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## Claudia M

We are working on blinds somewhat. The week days are too short and no light when I get back home and the weekends have been quite busy. 

I am trying to get Rose to run long straight distances on beginner blinds like we did the walking fetch except we do not walk to it, she goes to it. I place several bumpers at several yards between them in a line and give her a back to each. 

This morning there were bunch of flocks of black birds in the yard. I let her hunt them up and then used the whistle to make her sit once the birds started flying. Since those birds fly so quick it is easy so hopefully she gets the idea that once the birds are in the air and she is given the whistle sit she has to keep her behind down and not fly in the air and catch the birds. Since I did not expect to have this opportunity this morning I did not have a bumper with me so we just played afterwards.


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## MillionsofPeaches

duh, never thought of doing that with the birds, Claudia. I'm going to try that! They love chasing after the crows


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## Claudia M

MillionsofPeaches said:


> duh, never thought of doing that with the birds, Claudia. I'm going to try that! They love chasing after the crows


It was a spur of the moment. Had the whistle on me but nothing else. Rose has so much prey drive in her and she absolutely enjoys live birds. Much much more than freshly shot or frozen. It was impossible to stop her on our first attempt at flushing. She flies up in the air as if she is catching a frisbee.

If I remember correctly you mentioned here that Kat is just starting to battle the live/cripple birds - or maybe it was someone else or maybe Peaches. But I would personally not stop a dog with a whistle that is just starting to like live birds.


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## MillionsofPeaches

No, Katniss, is now in love with all birds, it seems. Remember the photo on Facebook of my happy face when she just grabbed up the cripple at the test??? We don't have issues with her anymore, I HOPE. We are going hunting for the first time tomorrow and I'm really really hoping that we get something that she can bring in.


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## hotel4dogs

can't wait to hear how your hunting went!


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## gdgli

MillionsofPeaches said:


> No, Katniss, is now in love with all birds, it seems. Remember the photo on Facebook of my happy face when she just grabbed up the cripple at the test??? We don't have issues with her anymore, I HOPE. We are going hunting for the first time tomorrow and I'm really really hoping that we get something that she can bring in.


Keep your head down on the stock (wood to wood), keep looking at the bird and don't aim, and follow through after pulling the trigger.

Good luck!


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## MillionsofPeaches

well, hunting was eh. There were some people at the end of the lake that shot too high and the birds wouldn't come down. Two flew down but still too high for us to shoot. 
Katniss did awesome though. She sat next to me the whole time and just stared out. It was nuts, I think she could feel the excitement because she was really quiet and just so focused. when the guns went off down the lake she got even more alert and ready but didn't whine or anything. She didn't get bored and try to wander off. I was super super proud of her on that. 
So we will go out again. The weather has been really really funky and I've been told that may have an effect this year. Two weeks ago it was the coldest in 50 years and broke records and now it is in the 70's with a lot of fog and humidity. 
But it was fun to go scout yesterday and it was fun this morning, just wish I'd seen more action on our end.


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## Alaska7133

Morning training was marks with a hunt test set up. Everyone went simple with just 4 singles. I did a single, then a double, then a single between the double marks. Lucy is just fine. In heat but just fine. Went to the line off leash just fine, handled everything well. No complaints. Well except for her sudden need to show everyone her dokkens. Why now? Maybe because she's in heat. I spent a couple hours throwing. I love throwing, it's such a great way to see how dogs minds work in the field.

We're down to 5.5 hrs of daylight with the day's getting shorter still. The is sun so low in the sky it's hard to see. Then when it's cloudy... Not much snow up here so far this year, which is fine with me. Warm today in the mid20's, I'll take it! Tomorrow training in the frozen marshes, different mountains to look at. Always beautiful here in the winter!


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## hollyk

I trained with my trainer this week and I'll try and use it to answer FT's questions. 
The day before I texted the trainer to get the location we were working the next day. There are about 10 different spots that I have train with him and it's 1.5-2 hour drive one way to get to him. Occasional he comes north to train on technical water that is only 30 min. from me. This day there were 5 day trainers with 7 dogs training, 4 at MH level, 2 SH and one JH plus the Pro's dogs. 
When I pulled into the field the Pro had decided on the setup and had started to set up. So I pulled on my boots and rain gear and pitched in, others were showing up too and they did the same thing, of coarse there is lots of visiting and teasing going on. One of the guys is somewhere in his late 70's and is avid Upland hunter. It's the tail end of State released Upland birds here so I asked about his recent luck. This same guy has a female yellow lab that he ran in his first NMH this fall. He made into the last series and lost her on the last element, the water blind. We were all so hoping he would get a plate. 
Anyway, once the set up is ready we talk for a few minutes about it, the point of it, the pitfalls, what to look for, stuff like that. Then the Pro will run a few dogs so we can see the set up in action. He will run both really experienced and less experienced dogs that handle to really show us the set up. After he run a few dogs the day trainers will start jumping in line. When I run, sometimes I will get though the whole setup and get feedback after, sometimes during the run. After someone is done running, including the Pro, you can ask questions. On these training days, I watch many dogs and handlers of different levels run. The questions that are asked can lead to some very enlightening discussions. Sometimes I throw, so I need to know how to help out a dog. The same set is used for all level of dogs. The order maybe changed, run as singles or run as single then run as a multiple. However, very inexperienced dog will get hand thrown marks on short grass. Handlers with inexperienced blind running dog's will walk up on the blind or an easier blind will be set for them. 
The photo is of the set up this week. We were working the high cover in the corner of a field, 1and 2 were thrown in cover and were much tighter to each other than it appears in the photo.The diversion was thrown as she came in with the first bird. 
Winter picked up 3, handled the diversion bird just fine, had a bit of a hunt in dense cover for 1 but the learning point for me this week was bird 2, the middle bird. I had trouble getting a good lock, she was ping ponging right and left, and then thought I had a lock. Winter took a nice line maybe a third of the way there then flared left and ended up back siding the throwing station and I ended up handling. As she approached the thrown station I heard behind me "oh come on, you are wishin and hopin". 
So my feedback was twofold.
1. Because she was bouncing around so much when I was lining her up if I would of just taken 2 steps forward then tried again he thinks she would have locked in better. I needed to articulate the line better and I didn't think to do this.
2. I let her flare the cover and this gave me the big take away of the day. I was asked, "If the cover was water would you have let her take that line." No! "So just like water, you want that straight line in and handle if you have to. Treat cover like water." 
Oh, and the blind was a bit messy so I got talked to about that too. These days my dog gets very few notes to work on. My handling skills get the bulk of the criticism.


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## K9-Design

Today Slater passed his 5th Finished test and is now a (UKC) Hunting Retriever Champion 
Yesterday's finished test looked super easy but we failed with two handles. Today's test looked very difficult but he passed with no handles! Go figure. Slater's blinds were super all weekend, today he two-whistled the land blind, and one whistled the water blind which was a cheaty entry cut the corner of a pond, up the hill, and through a keyhole between a tree and a hay bale. One whistle before he exited the pond was all he needed - nailed the keyhole 
I'll keep running and training him for the occasional master test but our focus will be obedience and agility now


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## hotel4dogs

Way to go Anney and Slater!


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## boomers_dawn

Congratulations Anney and Slater!

We went training with Dog skool teechers group yesterday. We don't normally have enough members to see dogs run or have much discussion but I went out to throw first and was stunned how well the dogs did, since none of us have been training too regularly and we set up long distances and white coats for the FT dog. It was too windy to be sure the dogs could hear since we couldn't shoot where we trained.

At any rate, I don't know what the distances were and didn't pay much attention. It was really windy and I was going to do all singles and didn't have any more specific goals than pick up the singles. Surprisingly, both my girls had trouble on the first short bird. I think they might not pay attention at first, then they get better on the subsequent marks, which they both nailed. We didn't do any blinds, we ran out of time before the sun was setting. That was fine, my dogs aren't really in tune anymore, but it always amazes me how much better their marking seems to be when they've been training LESS. 

Since I wasn't paying attention and was completely unprepared for Gladys' breaking. Hearing myself think in retrospect "she doesn't usually break" reminds me *I'm* out of tune with training and should have been paying attention more, planning and preparing and to never let that guard down, as if every mark is an opportunity for a break. I didn't think to push the button, even though my finger was on it, and yelled a stunned "Hey!" to which she came back. So we did a quick breaking bird drill before finishing up, which involved dog skool teecher bouncing a dokken in front of her and yelling "DOG!!!!" and me pushing the button


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## ktkins7

Congratulations!

On Sunday the 14th Ella and I are going to observe one of the field classes by the trainer. He said so far there aren't a lot of people signed up which is good so that he will be able to explain things. It's supposed to be hunt test set ups with dead birds. From what I know of we'll just be observing. 

I assume that there is a high possibility that there will be gun shots, which Ella has not been exposed to yet. The trainer is aware of this but we haven't talked about it since our first private lesson. I know she doesn't mind thunder or fireworks at all, so I'm hoping she'll be fine with the gun fire. But does anyone have any suggestions for her first exposure? Any particular do's and don'ts?

Other than that we are continuing work on recall, trying to fight through this brick wall that we seem to have run into. I've pretty much brought her back to the beginning from and am going to build up from there. Also need to get a more consistent sit on the whistle command, especially if she isn't right in front of me or right next to me. On the positive side, my dog who didn't want to retrieve at all the first lesson and wasn't too interested in retrieving outside now seems obsessed. She doesn't want to stop. She's also still improving with heeling as well.

Unfortunately don't know how much training I'll be able to get in the next two days because we're going to have a storm coming through. Cold and rain. If it was cold and snow I wouldn't mind, but I hate the combination of cold and rain. Going to try and see what I can accomplish indoors.


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## MillionsofPeaches

That is great, Anney!

This morning I did a lot of drills. I did some angle drills and Katniss is doing well on those. She needs to improve on one angle but the middle angle she does so well on, it cracks me up. That is her favorite cast by far  We did another drill that she didn't do so well on, I put orange bumpers in a pile at the end of a line with a white bumper on either side of the line about ten feet away and about ten feet before the pile. Katniss absolutely cannot see orange and it was driving her crazy to take my line despite the fact that she could clearly see those white bumpers. She got it by the fourth run but it was nasty before that. I had to shorten it up a lot. basically all the way to the white bumpers and then move back until I had her running a short 30 yard line. Looks like I'll be practicing this drill a lot for the time being. 
Then I ran her on two blinds with orange bumpers. One was about 75 yards and over a ditch and some slopes. The next was about 40 yards to the side of the first one with some different slopes. She did very good on them. She took angles really well on them. 

Good morning, I like when I have some stuff I see we need to work on and when she does well on other stuff that we're working on.


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## hollyk

Good boy Slater!



boomers_dawn said:


> Since I wasn't paying attention and was completely unprepared for Gladys' breaking. Hearing myself think in retrospect "she doesn't usually break" reminds me *I'm* out of tune with training and should have been paying attention more, planning and preparing and to never let that guard down, as if every mark is an opportunity for a break. I didn't think to push the button, even though my finger was on it, and yelled a stunned "Hey!" to which she came back. So we did a quick breaking bird drill before finishing up, which involved dog skool teecher bouncing a dokken in front of her and yelling "DOG!!!!" and me pushing the button


This is so my problem! Winter is usually a nice blind running dog that I sometimes get caught flat footed. Then I have total missed the opportunity to correct. I did this last week. I was still thinking about the marks when I ran the blind and she blew though a sit whistle, after that she was totally self employed. Yes, my good running blind dog took advantage of my lack of attention and gave me the paw. Boy, did I get a talking to about that!


----------



## CarmenK

ktkins7 said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> On Sunday the 14th Ella and I are going to observe one of the field classes by the trainer. He said so far there aren't a lot of people signed up which is good so that he will be able to explain things. It's supposed to be hunt test set ups with dead birds. From what I know of we'll just be observing.
> 
> I assume that there is a high possibility that there will be gun shots, which Ella has not been exposed to yet. The trainer is aware of this but we haven't talked about it since our first private lesson. I know she doesn't mind thunder or fireworks at all, so I'm hoping she'll be fine with the gun fire. But does anyone have any suggestions for her first exposure? Any particular do's and don'ts?


Congratulations! I'm pretty sure you will love it. There will be gun shots (starter pistols), but out in the field, about 100yd off the cars, unless sb is doing HRC style. The trainer will know how to introduce Ella to gun shots.


----------



## gdgli

K9-Design said:


> Today Slater passed his 5th Finished test and is now a (UKC) Hunting Retriever Champion
> Yesterday's finished test looked super easy but we failed with two handles. Today's test looked very difficult but he passed with no handles! Go figure. Slater's blinds were super all weekend, today he two-whistled the land blind, and one whistled the water blind which was a cheaty entry cut the corner of a pond, up the hill, and through a keyhole between a tree and a hay bale. One whistle before he exited the pond was all he needed - nailed the keyhole
> I'll keep running and training him for the occasional master test but our focus will be obedience and agility now


Congratulations!


----------



## TrailDogs

K9-Design said:


> Today Slater passed his 5th Finished test and is now a (UKC) Hunting Retriever Champion
> Yesterday's finished test looked super easy but we failed with two handles. Today's test looked very difficult but he passed with no handles! Go figure. Slater's blinds were super all weekend, today he two-whistled the land blind, and one whistled the water blind which was a cheaty entry cut the corner of a pond, up the hill, and through a keyhole between a tree and a hay bale. One whistle before he exited the pond was all he needed - nailed the keyhole
> I'll keep running and training him for the occasional master test but our focus will be obedience and agility now


Congratulations! 
You must have a very trainable boy because I know their obedience standards at the line are quite high. You two are clearly a good team.


----------



## FTGoldens

hollyk said:


> I trained with my trainer this week and I'll try and use it to answer FT's questions.
> The day before I texted the trainer to get the location we were working the next day. There are about 10 different spots that I have train with him and it's 1.5-2 hour drive one way to get to him. Occasional he comes north to train on technical water that is only 30 min. from me. This day there were 5 day trainers with 7 dogs training, 4 at MH level, 2 SH and one JH plus the Pro's dogs.
> When I pulled into the field the Pro had decided on the setup and had started to set up. So I pulled on my boots and rain gear and pitched in, others were showing up too and they did the same thing, of coarse there is lots of visiting and teasing going on. One of the guys is somewhere in his late 70's and is avid Upland hunter. It's the tail end of State released Upland birds here so I asked about his recent luck. This same guy has a female yellow lab that he ran in his first NMH this fall. He made into the last series and lost her on the last element, the water blind. We were all so hoping he would get a plate.
> Anyway, once the set up is ready we talk for a few minutes about it, the point of it, the pitfalls, what to look for, stuff like that. Then the Pro will run a few dogs so we can see the set up in action. He will run both really experienced and less experienced dogs that handle to really show us the set up. After he run a few dogs the day trainers will start jumping in line. When I run, sometimes I will get though the whole setup and get feedback after, sometimes during the run. After someone is done running, including the Pro, you can ask questions. On these training days, I watch many dogs and handlers of different levels run. The questions that are asked can lead to some very enlightening discussions. Sometimes I throw, so I need to know how to help out a dog. The same set is used for all level of dogs. The order maybe changed, run as singles or run as single then run as a multiple. However, very inexperienced dog will get hand thrown marks on short grass. Handlers with inexperienced blind running dog's will walk up on the blind or an easier blind will be set for them.
> The photo is of the set up this week. We were working the high cover in the corner of a field, 1and 2 were thrown in cover and were much tighter to each other than it appears in the photo.The diversion was thrown as she came in with the first bird.
> Winter picked up 3, handled the diversion bird just fine, had a bit of a hunt in dense cover for 1 but the learning point for me this week was bird 2, the middle bird. I had trouble getting a good lock, she was ping ponging right and left, and then thought I had a lock. Winter took a nice line maybe a third of the way there then flared left and ended up back siding the throwing station and I ended up handling. As she approached the thrown station I heard behind me "oh come on, you are wishin and hopin".
> So my feedback was twofold.
> 1. Because she was bouncing around so much when I was lining her up if I would of just taken 2 steps forward then tried again he thinks she would have locked in better. I needed to articulate the line better and I didn't think to do this.
> 2. I let her flare the cover and this gave me the big take away of the day. I was asked, "If the cover was water would you have let her take that line." No! "So just like water, you want that straight line in and handle if you have to. Treat cover like water."
> Oh, and the blind was a bit messy so I got talked to about that too. These days my dog gets very few notes to work on. My handling skills get the bulk of the criticism.


hollyk,
Thanks for the description! To my knowledge, there's not a pro in my area that does the day-training thing, which is surprising because to the pro the benefit seems twofold: bird throwers and money.
It sounds like you have a good pro giving good, timely advice.
As for the one getting the most education, I seem to learn something about the dogs and how to handle them to a greater extent than the dogs learn about retrieving the way that I want them to retrieve. (I KNOW, without any uncertainty, that my first pretty good dog taught me more than I taught him!)
What do you intend to run next spring?
FTGoldens


----------



## hollyk

It has worked out well for me. I feel like I have a decent foundation for the next puppy.
I would think the downside for the Pro is that it extends his day. I can remember a couple of days where just my time at the line was at least 30 minutes. 
Presently, the Pro has a bunch of puppies (around 7 months) just out of FF and they are out running puppy marks. It is a riot to watch them, they are so goofy. The Pro has a knack for teaching humans. When he was running the pups the conversation was watch which ones run with they're heads up all the way to the mark, who quickly picked up the faster I sit quietly the fast the throw comes....it was interesting.
Winter needs 3 legs to get her MH. She also has 2 CKC MH legs so at some point we will go after that but AKC is the focus. If she gets her AKC MH and one CKC leg by mid summer she would qualify for the CKC NMH which will be held only a hop skip and a jump over the border in August. But that involves many if's and I would be thrilled with the AKC MH title. We are also training for CDX. 
If all goes well, late 2015 may bring a new puppy.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Yesterday I worked on staggered marks. Katniss has been overrunning some shorter marks so it is essential I work on this. She did really great. I had some of them falling between the wingers and she did great staying in between them on those and keeping her hunt tight on the shorter mark that she overran. Its so cool to watch them seriously hunting. They were in a lot of cover and the marks were sinking in so I was satisfied. She has really done good putting on the nose now for marks and turning it off for blinds which was a problem in the summer so I can see a lot of improvement. 

Then I worked on some blinds. Well, I ran a 110 yard blind for the first time on her. It was a flatter surface along the field cover line but at the end there was a high bank of land and a deep puddle with a lot of sparse but high weeds growing out of it. I put the pile in the water. She ran to about 75 yards and then lost her mind. she wanted to go up that bank. So I sat her and shortened my distance to her about 40 yards in. She then took my casts. I met her back at the line and reran it and she did great. One whistle near the end. That hill really sucked her in. I think it is because I worked a lot on hills during the early fall. Then I ran her on a 50 yard blind in the complete opposite direction but in the deep cover of the field and another one driving through a high patch of thick cover. The first blind was great, just one whistle to ensure she didn't veer off her line. The second one was a pain. Kat HATES going through high cover on a blind if it isn't a long patch and she can see that she can go around it. So we fought that for awhile but finally she was punching through. 

So later in the day I brought her back to the field and reran that 110 blind. She remembered the line and took it straight to the pile. She did this three times. I'm really glad about that. I want her to learn to take my line forever until I tell her to stop. I also set up another blind that was about 30 degrees to the right of that blind but same distance away and in the field cover. I pointed her at the first blind, told her no bird and flipped her to line the second blind. She took a line all the way to 100 yards or so until she started to veer off but sat on the whistle and took an angle back to the pile!!! I couldn't believe it! I was so pleased, I was hooting and clapping!! She came back with a huge smile on her face and a wagging tail. Then I ran her two more times and she took straight lines with no whistles. I was so pleased!!! Made my evening for sure. I think she is starting to get it!!


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## Claudia M

We are at complete beginning of handling and blinds. Did a little on Sunday (busy with a wedding Saturday and taking Rose to the emergency vet due to an ear issue, then sleet and snow on Monday which finally melted some in the back yard this morning). 
With Bozo Rose I cannot use the term "dead bird" I have to go with just dead. If I slip and say dead bird she looks up in the air; Sunday I said dead bird, I felt that she locked to the pile but no way, on her way she stopped at the tree, looked up and sure enough there was a darn bird up there, her tiny brain was trying to figure how to get up there and get the bird. Had to whistle sit her and give her a back to the pile. While cute, it was still aggravating. As she took my back she still had to look up at the bird in the tree as if telling me: "You moron human, the bird is still up there!"


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## hotel4dogs

A cold, but good session out at Dan's today. One more and then 8 weeks off for us.
There were, as usual, a bunch of fresh killed birds on the ground outside the clubhouse when I let Tito out of the car. Nice variety of pheasant, duck, chukkar, (and other....). As always, I told him he could go get himself a bird to carry around for a while. This is our routine when we arrive each week.
So he disappeared briefly, and about 30 seconds later came back around the corner carrying a HUGE GOOSE. This thing was seriously large, he could barely carry it and he's one strong boy. Dan and I were both amazed, of all the nice fresh birds he picks the massive goose. And who says dogs can't judge size??? He seemed so proud of his nice big bird, it was hilarious. Where's the camera when you need it??
Anyway, a good training session. Messed up a triple by returning to an old AOF, but no big deal. Ran some great blinds. It really sucks that we will have to take 8 weeks off when I feel that he is doing so well.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh wow, I wish you did have your camera!


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## Vhuynh2

Molly had a tough day today. We really pushed her on the four blinds my trainer set up. Lots of suction. I'm so glad my trainer was there to help us work through it. For Molly, there's a fine line of pushing not enough and too hard, but I think (through the help of our trainer) she and I both are handling it (excuse the pun) a lot better than we used to. On Molly's part, she is gaining confidence and I can slowly push her a bit more each time. On *my* part, I am learning not to tense up and freak out when something gets hard.

I realize now how important it is to have a trainer who has had a ton of experience. My former trainer was very careful with Molly, which I appreciated, but we were going at a snail's pace, if at all. The amount of improvement I have seen in just the TWO months we stopped seeing the former trainer (plus training alone for the most part, which REALLY helps us) is incredible. Yes, Molly is being pushed in ways I have never pushed her before, but she is responding well and has even more enthusiasm than before.

Things were looking dark for awhile. I think we're ending the year on a good note.


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## hotel4dogs

I posted this in the chit chat section, but want to put it here even though it's seriously OT just in case you guys missed it.
Since texting while driving is getting too easy, here's what I want for Christmas:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/AutoExec-Wheelmate-Steering-Attachable-Surface/dp/B00E1D1GY6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1418341236&sr=8-1&keywords=auto+steering+wheel+tray[/ame]
Take a few minutes and read the questions and answers, and especially the 1-star reviews. I laughed so hard I cried.


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## MillionsofPeaches

***??? OMG that is nuts! They were actually saying that the product isn't killing people it is the people using it that kill people??? That is actually a discussion, ha ha. 

I do love reading reviews on Amazon. Sometimes on car trips we'll just open up crazy stuff and read them out loud to amuse the kids.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Vivian, I just read your post to my daughter and she said that is exactly me and Katniss! So crazy!


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## Vhuynh2

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Vivian, I just read your post to my daughter and she said that is exactly me and Katniss! So crazy!


It helps knowing Molly and I aren't alone!


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## MillionsofPeaches

Yep it certainly helps me!!


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## my4goldens

hotel4dogs said:


> I posted this in the chit chat section, but want to put it here even though it's seriously OT just in case you guys missed it.
> Since texting while driving is getting too easy, here's what I want for Christmas:
> Amazon.com: AutoExec Wheelmate Steering Wheel Attachable Work Surface Tray: Automotive
> Take a few minutes and read the questions and answers, and especially the 1-star reviews. I laughed so hard I cried.


I want one for Christmas too. It will be a god send on our trip to Florida, I'm sure I will be able to drive thru the mountains without too much difficulty while using it attached to the steering wheel, using my tablet posting to Facebook, or sending you an e-mail checking on how my doggies are doing.


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## Claudia M

Had a wonderful day field training today. Of course it was wonderful because the girls did good. First set up was an ABCD square. Long, short and then short, long. The second set up was three marks one short at 118, middle very long at 240 and then third at 185 yards. The middle one was also hard as the bird fell behind a fallen tree. Rose went to it and then made her way thru the fallen tree. Darcy went to the tree and then went around it which caused her to over-run the bird. She needed two ducks thrown again to get back to the mark. I ran both girls on those marks as singles. I probably could have run Rose as a double but I did not want to push it, I wanted good success on our first time there. The set up was at a horse race track so while the others were working on blinds I started the girls on jumping the horse obstacle to the mark and jump it back on the way back.


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## Claudia M

I am not good at all at drawing on pictures. I tried! 

I ran the girls in this order. I should have run long first then short and then middle length. I am such a novice at field trial training I was not sure my girls can mark the bird on 3. After I saw how they did on 1 and 2 I figured what the heck, lets try 3 as well. As a trainer once told me I just do not give my girls enough credit.


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## goldlover68

All our training has been on live hunts....although the duck hunting has not been very good so far!

My 2 year old Golden, went on her first hunts with me this year. The first 3 hunts, I did not even take my gun, just working with her on remaining study, staying in her blind, and marking shot birds. that all went well and by the end of our 3rd hunt she was next to me in her blind, while I shot birds. 

She remained study on a limit of birds except for one my son hit that dropped directly in front of her maybe 5 yds, and hit just enough water to make a big splash. She broke before I even looked at her. Not good, but was the only time this season she broke...so overall I am happy where she is right now!

Going out again this weekend as some colder weather is finally coming back in this area....wish us luck...


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## Alaska7133

Training here has been not a lot of fun. Lucy's in heat and that makes it hard to find places so that you don't have to worry when she's off leash. She's being good for the most part, but she has a wandering eye. Makes me think harder about spaying her, I just don't know if I'm cut out for the whole breeding thing. If she was spayed I wouldn't have to worry about when and where to train or missing an event. If I did spay her, I wouldn't have to show her anymore, but I'd miss that a bit. I swore I wouldn't breed her until she finished her championship in the show ring, which it might never happen. I'm just not dedicated enough to going to enough shows. Then there's the whole if you spay you'll never know what kind of puppies she would produce. We've finished all our clearances and everything passed including the genetic stuff, she just had a fair on hips, that I wish was a little better. Holly, Vivian, Claudia, Swampcollie, FT, anyone else with bitches, any thoughts? What were your deciding factors?


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## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> Training here has been not a lot of fun. Lucy's in heat and that makes it hard to find places so that you don't have to worry when she's off leash. She's being good for the most part, but she has a wandering eye. Makes me think harder about spaying her, I just don't know if I'm cut out for the whole breeding thing. If she was spayed I wouldn't have to worry about when and where to train or missing an event. If I did spay her, I wouldn't have to show her anymore, but I'd miss that a bit. I swore I wouldn't breed her until she finished her championship in the show ring, which it might never happen. I'm just not dedicated enough to going to enough shows. Then there's the whole if you spay you'll never know what kind of puppies she would produce. We've finished all our clearances and everything passed including the genetic stuff, she just had a fair on hips, that I wish was a little better. Holly, Vivian, Claudia, Swampcollie, FT, anyone else with bitches, any thoughts? What were your deciding factors?


It is such a hard question/decision Stacey! So I will write all my reasonings behind it.

I decided not to breed Darcy until she has the CH and JH title at least. Quite a lot to accomplish considering her age and prior care/training. She is major pointed and has 5 regular points but still a ways to go and me learning the show politics. In the field I also want to make sure she can be trainable beyond JH before breeding. And that is my issues are handling and steadiness. 
And all this before her next heat in February. By August she will be 6yrs old and I will NOT breed her at that age; keep in mind a flat coat average lifespan is closer to 10. 
So that is how I look at breeding. 

Regardless of breeding I will not spay her and more than likely I will still go with her to the local conformation shows. 
My major concern pro-spaying is pyo. So in my decision for spaying any dog will be how are the heats, any pyo scares or false pregnancy scares. If that is yes I would contemplate OSS (ovary sparring spay). They will still have a heat but much less and very little bleeding. There is only one place where we train once a month that we are encouraged NOT to bring a bitch in heat. The other two places are OK with it and I make sure to let them know about my girls. Normally we do not have dogs running around during training. The dog runs and then it is put in the car except for honoring. In those cases I either run last or between girls with other girls doing the honoring. 

With Rose I did have a pyo scare and a false pregnancy after her first heat. Reason why I opted for the OSS with her after her second heat. Considering that she was older her recuperation time was longer and she also had an infection. In June I was too hyper in going back to training and after her first actual field water training I also noticed that some of the dissoluble sutures were being rejected and she was in pain every time she hit the water. It took her from March to September or so to get back on track and still the water attitude is not there yet. 

With both intact and OSS there is still the possibility of mammary cancer. I have them checked twice a year and also palpitate them myself during our weekly grooming. 

I look forward to see how the others look at it as well! As always you bring up very good questions.


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## Vhuynh2

I got Molly as a pet on limited registration so there was nothing to decide. She had one heat cycle and then was spayed. Molly has a ton of food sensitivities so on that alone, should probably never be bred. She does have all her clearances that I got done just for my own information. 

I would never be able to breed. I'm a worrywart and there are so many things that could go wrong.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Katniss came to me with Juvi cataracts and since I didn't want to hassle with heats I spayed her at a year and a half. Peaches is a different story. I don't know if I will ever breed her or not. I have only gotten an eye clearance done a year ago (so she'd need another one at the time if I wanted to breed her) and all the other stuff that would need to be done. Who knows she might not even pass, although I don't think she would have problems, but you never know until you do it. 

There are things I would love to breed Peaches for. I love her style, her body type, her intelligence, her speed and accuracy and she is good at obedience and so forth. Despite her stubborness, in all the tests she's taken she's only not passed twice and both times were easily understandable. I have her CCA scheduled in March and if she were to pass that I would be fine breeding her without getting a Ch on her, which she wouldn't ever achieve anyway, her ears are too low among other things. And I've already thought of the kind of dog I'd like to breed her to in order to improve on her weaknesses. 

She is two and a few months and she's only had one heat. It was Jan 3 (i remember because I spent all this money on a seminar and drove all the way to it only to see drops that first night in the hotel....grrr) so if she stays a once a year cycle (and it is going in that direction as the year is almost over) I don't mind her not being spayed as far as hassle goes.
I have a fantastic and helpful breeder. I know that I would not be on my own if I were to breed her, not in the least. But I'm just on the fence. I just don't know if I want to or not. I want to wait a little longer and see how things keep going with her, therefore she stays intact.


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> Training here has been not a lot of fun. Lucy's in heat and that makes it hard to find places so that you don't have to worry when she's off leash. She's being good for the most part, but she has a wandering eye. Makes me think harder about spaying her, I just don't know if I'm cut out for the whole breeding thing. If she was spayed I wouldn't have to worry about when and where to train or missing an event. If I did spay her, I wouldn't have to show her anymore, but I'd miss that a bit. I swore I wouldn't breed her until she finished her championship in the show ring, which it might never happen. I'm just not dedicated enough to going to enough shows. Then there's the whole if you spay you'll never know what kind of puppies she would produce. We've finished all our clearances and everything passed including the genetic stuff, she just had a fair on hips, that I wish was a little better. Holly, Vivian, Claudia, Swampcollie, FT, anyone else with bitches, any thoughts? What were your deciding factors?


I'm a field trialer, NOT a breeder. 
That said, I had a pretty nice male a few years ago and decided to buy a female puppy with a pedigree that would nicely match with the male's ... yep, I thought raising puppies would be fun and profitable ... it's really not either one, but a bit closer to fun than profitable. And yes, I suspect that's how some "puppy mills" get started, but 3 litters in something like 30 years does not make me a major producer.
So, that girl dog showed some promise and for a few years seemed to be right on the verge of breaking into the big leagues, which only a handful of female Goldens are able to do. All the while that she was on said verge, I refused to breed her because I didn't want to give up the training time or trials ... because she was so, sooo close. Yes, the cycles of estrus were a pain in the arse, but fortunately she was a once a year cycler. Finally I realized, through consultation with my repro vet, that if she was ever going to have puppies, she needed to have them soon, so she was bred. (Before the breeding, she had actually passed a significant hurdle.) Maybe I'm kennel-blind or peer through rose-colored glasses, but I felt that the girl had some qualities that needed to be passed along to future generations. So, I guess that's my standard for breeding my females ... will it benefit the breed for her to have puppies. 
Additionally, as you know from my previous posts, I am blessed to have a great training group. And they had no problem with me showing up to train with a "hot" female in my truck ... some of the boy dogs were distracted despite my efforts to park downwind and far away, but most of the guys considered the situation to be trial-like conditions. 
So, it's a purely subjective, personal decision, and is sometimes not an easy one to make.
FTGoldens


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## Claudia M

How many of you use the chlorophyll liquid or pills with your girls? Rose has started 2 heats no where else but at the training grounds. One of which was after the OSS, a week after her first JH test. 
I think it works great especially if you start giving it to them a month before you expect them to go into heat. 
It would not "solve the hormonal brain" but it does help with the boys smelling them.


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## Vhuynh2

I used chlorophyll liquid. I had it ready in my fridge so I could start it the day Molly came in. I don't know if I would use it again and have no idea if it actually worked. I know some people say their girls smell while in heat but Molly did not smell at all, so maybe it worked on my human nose.


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## gdgli

FTGoldens said:


> I'm a field trialer, NOT a breeder.
> That said, I had a pretty nice male a few years ago and decided to buy a female puppy with a pedigree that would nicely match with the male's ... yep, I thought raising puppies would be fun and profitable ... it's really not either one, but a bit closer to fun than profitable. And yes, I suspect that's how some "puppy mills" get started, but 3 litters in something like 30 years does not make me a major producer.
> So, that girl dog showed some promise and for a few years seemed to be right on the verge of breaking into the big leagues, which only a handful of female Goldens are able to do. All the while that she was on said verge, I refused to breed her because I didn't want to give up the training time or trials ... because she was so, sooo close. Yes, the cycles of estrus were a pain in the arse, but fortunately she was a once a year cycler. Finally I realized, through consultation with my repro vet, that if she was ever going to have puppies, she needed to have them soon, so she was bred. (Before the breeding, she had actually passed a significant hurdle.) Maybe I'm kennel-blind or peer through rose-colored glasses, but I felt that the girl had some qualities that needed to be passed along to future generations. So, I guess that's my standard for breeding my females ... will it benefit the breed for her to have puppies.
> Additionally, as you know from my previous posts, I am blessed to have a great training group. And they had no problem with me showing up to train with a "hot" female in my truck ... some of the boy dogs were distracted despite my efforts to park downwind and far away, but most of the guys considered the situation to be trial-like conditions.
> So, it's a purely subjective, personal decision, and is sometimes not an easy one to make.
> FTGoldens


Apropos to this---

My last field Golden came from Georgia. My friend was showing her Chessie down there and helped me locate a litter and another friend saw the litter. Neither parent had a title but it didn't bother me. These were good dogs. Had the pup flown up from Georgia. Dasher (Twin Branch Bayside Dasher) was healthy and was quite an outstanding hunting dog. 
I did say they were good dogs. Dasher's father went on to become FC-AFC Mioak's Main Event (Rocky). Check him out on the Topbrass website. My point here is that in the field, good field dogs that are young may not necessarily be titled when you are looking for a pup. Average age of titling vs. age for breeding younger dogs.


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## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> Apropos to this---
> 
> My last field Golden came from Georgia. My friend was showing her Chessie down there and helped me locate a litter and another friend saw the litter. Neither parent had a title but it didn't bother me. These were good dogs. Had the pup flown up from Georgia. Dasher (Twin Branch Bayside Dasher) was healthy and was quite an outstanding hunting dog.
> I did say they were good dogs. Dasher's father went on to become FC-AFC Mioak's Main Event (Rocky). Check him out on the Topbrass website. My point here is that in the field, good field dogs that are young may not necessarily be titled when you are looking for a pup. Average age of titling vs. age for breeding younger dogs.


yup, I would definitely take a pup from an outstanding untitled hunting dog any time! Well, except I am pretty sure DH has drawn the line at 3.


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## hollyk

Like Vivian's Molly, Winter was acquired as a pet on limited registration. 
However last year, years after her spay, her breeder signed off on full registration. In order for me to get her a CKC Event # she need to be on an AKC full registration.


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## hotel4dogs

Tito, too, was bought on a limited registration. Obviously that was lifted  .
One thing I suggest people strongly consider before breeding (and this is not to discourage anyone, it's just something I always mention) is how they plan to place the puppies. If you end up with a litter of 12 or 13, will you be able to provide good homes for all of them without resorting to ads in the newspaper?
A lot of people do have the backing of their original breeder, and placing the puppies is no issue at all. But it's something I think needs to be addressed before the final decision to breed or not breed is made.
JMO of course.


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## FTGoldens

gdgli said:


> Apropos to this---
> My point here is that in the field, good field dogs that are young may not necessarily be titled when you are looking for a pup. Average age of titling vs. age for breeding younger dogs.


Excellent point, gdgli!
I don't know about other venues, but FC and AFC titles are typically earned between 6 - 8 years of age.


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## hotel4dogs

We just got back from our last field training session at Dan's until probably mid-February at the soonest. Not just weather, but my only employee here at the pet hotel (my daughter) is quite pregnant, and due early January, which means I will get 0 days off for about 6 weeks after the baby is born. Ah, so exciting, my Grandson to be born soon!
Meanwhile, we had a great session today. The colder it gets, the happier Tito is. He was really amped today. We did a few marks, and then he got his early Christmas present....a nice hour of upland hunting! Got 4 big rooster pheasants. Best present he could have had.


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## MillionsofPeaches

congratulations on the new baby, Barb!!! How exciting! Is this your first grandchild?


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## gdgli

Congratulations!!!


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## hotel4dogs

Yes, it is! I am just over the moon excited! 
I told my daughter it was so nice of her to have this baby early January, when it's typically too cold/snowy to do any field training or tracking training anyway


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## Claudia M

Congrats Barb - to you and your family!


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## MillionsofPeaches

My birthday is January 9th! Its a good day to have a birthday


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## Alaska7133

Congratulations Barb!!


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## hollyk

I trained with the Pro this week. He is leaving mid January to train down south for 3.5 months. Between the holidays and work I might get one more day in before he leaves. We ran the set up but most of his instruction was about being thoughtful and deliberate. Watching all the "parts" of our blinds and keeping them solid, to make sure holding her on each mark is my habit, good communication between us, stuff like that. 
One of the things I have been working on is learning how to help her on a tough memory mark. This summer I realize that on tight lines I couldn't always read correctly where she was looking. Then I would send her on the wrong line and end up handling. Also I think I didn't want to mess with her too much afraid of burning up her memory of the birds. 
This week I could _see_ that on the last mark she was looking at the decoys that were set out to draw the dog right and I _remembered_ to use a small step forward to redirect her. When she locked I gave her a "good", paused and sent her. She had a nice line to the bird. A small thing but it felt like a big step up.


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## FTGoldens

hollyk said:


> One of the things I have been working on is learning how to help her on a tough memory mark. This summer I realize that on tight lines I couldn't always read correctly where she was looking. Then I would send her on the wrong line and end up handling. Also I think I didn't want to mess with her too much afraid of burning up her memory of the birds.
> This week I could _see_ that on the last mark she was looking at the decoys that were set out to draw the dog right and I _remembered_ to use a small step forward to redirect her. When she locked I gave her a "good", paused and sent her. She had a nice line to the bird. A small thing but it felt like a big step up.


Nice!
Even on marks, there's an element of teamwork.
FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs

This is something that I fight constantly with Tito. He seems perfectly capable of looking in one direction and running in a different one. Sometimes I am certain he is locked on the hidey blind, or something like that, but then he runs straight to the mark. Not really sure how to deal with it. It's as if he knows where it is, and doesn't find it really necessary to dwell on it, he'll go get it when sent. Kinda hard to explain.




hollyk said:


> I trained with the Pro this week. He is leaving mid January to train down south for 3.5 months. Between the holidays and work I might get one more day in before he leaves. We ran the set up but most of his instruction was about being thoughtful and deliberate. Watching all the "parts" of our blinds and keeping them solid, to make sure holding her on each mark is my habit, good communication between us, stuff like that.
> One of the things I have been working on is learning how to help her on a tough memory mark. This summer I realize that on tight lines I couldn't always read correctly where she was looking. Then I would send her on the wrong line and end up handling. Also I think I didn't want to mess with her too much afraid of burning up her memory of the birds.
> This week I could _see_ that on the last mark she was looking at the decoys that were set out to draw the dog right and I _remembered_ to use a small step forward to redirect her. When she locked I gave her a "good", paused and sent her. She had a nice line to the bird. A small thing but it felt like a big step up.


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## FTGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> This is something that I fight constantly with Tito. He seems perfectly capable of looking in one direction and running in a different one. Sometimes I am certain he is locked on the hidey blind, or something like that, but then he runs straight to the mark. Not really sure how to deal with it. It's as if he knows where it is, and doesn't find it really necessary to dwell on it, he'll go get it when sent. Kinda hard to explain.


I hate it when they lie to me! 
I had one pup that I could tell if she had larceny in her mind by watching her eyebrows.
It's not always easy to deal because some of the intuitive corrections can diminish their drive if overdone. If it's an obvious lie and an experienced dog whom I know can handle it, I'll give a No Here, then resend, but only if I catch it in the first 20 - 30 feet from the line. Otherwise, I'll start handling.
FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches

okay so I'm supposed to just intuitively know after awhile that Katniss isn't going to go where she says she is going? She lies BIG time. Her spine will be lined up and her head and yet I'll send her sometimes and suddenly she just loops right off to a complete opposite direction?
I've been stopping her right away and rerunning her because that seems to really pI$$ her off that I'm bothering her mojo. Usually she'll relent and run the line I'm sending her on but it is very frustrating. 
Is this a matter of just not running enough lining drills?? I run them twice a week and that must not be enough?


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## hotel4dogs

The thing is, he is not looking at the mark...but he goes to it. 
It drives me nuts. So I can't stop and re-send him, he heads right for it. But he's looking at something else entirely.
Now if he headed for the mark anyway 100% of the time, I'd ignore it. But it's only about 75%. The rest of the time, he does in fact head where he's looking. 
And of course, he doesn't always do this. *Usually* he locks on the mark just fine. But sometimes he seems to be looking everywhere BUT where he's supposed to be, but when I send him, he's fine.
Clear as mud?



FTGoldens said:


> I hate it when they lie to me!
> I had one pup that I could tell if she had larceny in her mind by watching her eyebrows.
> It's not always easy to deal because some of the intuitive corrections can diminish their drive if overdone. If it's an obvious lie and an experienced dog whom I know can handle it, I'll give a No Here, then resend, but only if I catch it in the first 20 - 30 feet from the line. Otherwise, I'll start handling.
> FTGoldens


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## Claudia M

well, Amazon lied to me. After over 40 min of the phone today turns out my Motorola walkie talkies have not shipped until sometime today. They sent it overnight but that means I will not get it until Monday.


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## ktkins7

Claudia M said:


> well, Amazon lied to me. After over 40 min of the phone today turns out my Motorola walkie talkies have not shipped until sometime today. They sent it overnight but that means I will not get it until Monday.


I feel your pain with that. I ordered stuff through Gun Dog Supply and USPS lost my package. It was sent 2 day priority mail about two weeks ago. Tracking said the package arrived in Louisiana and never left there. Went to the local post office a yesterday and they said they didn't know what happened to it. They contacted the head of the post office where it last was and they didn't know where it was. The local lady told me to give them a couple days to search for it. They must have found it and overnighted it because I got it in today's mail. What a pain. Wonder how long it would have been if I didn't do anything about it. Especially with the holidays.


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## Claudia M

Got back from our second field trial training. Harder terrain than the first. Excuse the poor drawing on cell taken pictures (photographer was out Christmas shopping). All retired guns!
Photo3 - last photo shows a little of the terrain, down hill, up hill thru a swampy place and then up hill again. 

Started with photo1 about 245 yrds. Rose did it twice. Why? Because the first time she ended up flushing several birds in the swampy area and she started hunting them and lost her mark. The second time she did great. Darcy did not do very well in this.;so I did not run her on the photo 2 which was harder. The bird was thrown way behind into the greener grass past the "wall". That was (not measured) probably 250yrds. 
Then we ran photo 3. Into the open, over the ditch and into the corn field. It was approx. 130 yrds. Both girls did not got to the old fall, which was good. 
Rose had a great speed both going and coming. Darcy was not in her element today.


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## Claudia M

Photo 1 was down hill, up hill, down hill into the swampy area in line with the bald trees and then up hill again into the cleared soy bean field.

Photo 2 was down hill, regroup after the pine tree, thru wider swampy area up hill thru the cleared soy bean field and then back into the grassy area.


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## Claudia M

I was not planning to train today but a friend needed to get out of the house so we went training for an hour or so. Did some shorter marks with heavier cover.


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## Alaska7133

I trained with a more advanced friend yesterday. He thought Lucy was too slow for the bumpers on force to pile. He had me nic her on fetch. So it became fetch-nic-fetch. Then she's taken to playing with the bumper when she brings it back. So we waited until she dropped it, then fetch-nic-fetch. She's rather a little pill! So we cleaned her up a bit. She's doing well, but I need her more focused to the task at hand. Then I threw some fun bumpers for her to liven her up. We're continuing on the whistle sit march. I'm using some distractions. I have DH stand in the yard near her. She'll sit when I whistle, but face DH instead. So I walk out and rotate her and whistle again. Dog training is the hardest thing in the world for me.


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## K9-Design

Alaska7133 said:


> I trained with a more advanced friend yesterday. He thought Lucy was too slow for the bumpers on force to pile. He had me nic her on fetch. So it became fetch-nic-fetch. Then she's taken to playing with the bumper when she brings it back. So we waited until she dropped it, then fetch-nic-fetch. She's rather a little pill! So we cleaned her up a bit. She's doing well, but I need her more focused to the task at hand.


Very good! Sometimes all it takes is an experienced eye to catch something little that will make a big difference.


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## Vhuynh2

Eight days ago, an 8 month old GR pup joined our family. This was completely unplanned and unexpected so she's just going to be my BF's dog and just a pet. Her name is Rose (breeder named her and we're keeping it) and is just the sweetest thing and more dog than Molly ever was, but she sure is fun.

Since she is my BF's dog and not field bred, I decided not to do any field work with her. BUT, she seems to loooove birds. She is often looking up at the sky and tracking birds. She sees crows up in trees and attempts to climb the trees. If she spots a duck in the lake she will swim after it even if it's very far out. We actually had a scare today that she might not come back to us and decided we're not going to let her swim when there are ducks in the lake. And what was most impressive was-- we were walking off leash on a trail yesterday about four feet wide and some quail crossed the trail and then went into the blackberry bushes on the other side. Rose did not see any of the quail but she smelled them and followed the scent and tried to go into the blackberry bushes. She has never even been exposed to quail. She also seems to be a natural retriever. She has had very minimal training in general, but the other day I launched a dokken from a winger and she ran out, hunted, and brought it back even though it was way too big for her mouth and she kept dropping it but would pick it up again and continue back to me. I did try to take a video but it is hard to hold a phone, work a winger remote, and manage a puppy at the same time!

I really wanted the next dog I train for the sport to be a field or performance bred puppy, but I'm wondering if I should give Rose a shot. I just don't want to get too deep into and then run into any uphill battles, since she wasn't bred for this. I keep hearing my friend's voice in the back of my head telling me that if I want to play the game, I should start with the right tools...


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## Claudia M

Vhuynh2 said:


> ........I really wanted the next dog I train for the sport to be a field or performance bred puppy, but I'm wondering if I should give Rose a shot. I just don't want to get too deep into and then run into any uphill battles, since she wasn't bred for this. I keep hearing my friend's voice in the back of my head telling me that if I want to play the game, I should start with the right tools...


I am for giving a shot to every dog no matter of breeding, especially that the instincts are there. How does she mark? You will have uphill battles and victories with all of them. Of course I am partial to the name as well


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## Vhuynh2

I'm not sure about her marking. We have only done easy hand throwns and a few short singles from wingers. She has only had to hunt on one of them and with her attention span, I was very surprised that she did not just give up. She very clearly knows how to use her nose, not sure about the eyes.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Viv, I wouldn't worry about the breeding that she came from. If she is interested in this stuff than she could really surprise you! Besides, you are already out training Molly. It won't hurt Rose to go out and have some fun and get some exercise. Peaches isn't going to go anywhere but she still enjoys getting out in the field and running marks. What is it going to hurt.


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## hotel4dogs

Viv, check out Tito's pedigree some time. Five generation pedigree: CH Rosewood Little Giant UDX VER RA MHU SH MXP MJP XFP T2BP VCX WCX CCA . Nothing in there AT ALL that would indicate that he would succeed at anything except being pretty.


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## FTGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> The thing is, he is not looking at the mark...but he goes to it.
> It drives me nuts. So I can't stop and re-send him, he heads right for it. But he's looking at something else entirely.
> Now if he headed for the mark anyway 100% of the time, I'd ignore it. But it's only about 75%. The rest of the time, he does in fact head where he's looking.
> And of course, he doesn't always do this. *Usually* he locks on the mark just fine. But sometimes he seems to be looking everywhere BUT where he's supposed to be, but when I send him, he's fine.
> Clear as mud?


Have you tried running wagon wheel with alternating white and orange bumpers, with white bumpers at approximately 30 feet and orange bumpers out at about 50 feet? With the bumpers being so close, I'm okay with giving plenty of "No Heres" if necessary; plus, pup can run a bunch of these without getting too tired. And if the angles are wide enough, I can tell pretty quickly if pup is headed where I haven't sent him. Also, I can move up if pup just doesn't want to go where sent. (If pup gets a white bumper when I've sent him for an orange one, I'll "sit" him as near the white bumper as possible, take the bumper from him and tell him that he's a bad dog. This is a NO COLLAR pressure drill.) Once I teach this drill, I rarely let a dog pick up a white bumper when running it.
It's my favorite drills of all time, regardless of the level of the dog ... the more fine-tuned the dog, the more bumpers and the tighter the angles. It fosters team work, helps me at lining my dog straight, and helps my dog know that I expect him to go where sent despite distractions, i.e., the white bumpers that he has to pass when en route to the orange bumpers. 
FTGoldens


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## Vhuynh2

They can't all turn out like Tito.  You and Tito were an inspiration for me to start field work with Molly.


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## MillionsofPeaches

ooooh good one, thanks!




FTGoldens said:


> Have you tried running wagon wheel with alternating white and orange bumpers, with white bumpers at approximately 30 feet and orange bumpers out at about 50 feet? With the bumpers being so close, I'm okay with giving plenty of "No Heres" if necessary; plus, pup can run a bunch of these without getting too tired. And if the angles are wide enough, I can tell pretty quickly if pup is headed where I haven't sent him. Also, I can move up if pup just doesn't want to go where sent. (If pup gets a white bumper when I've sent him for an orange one, I'll "sit" him as near the white bumper as possible, take the bumper from him and tell him that he's a bad dog. This is a NO COLLAR pressure drill.) Once I teach this drill, I rarely let a dog pick up a white bumper when running it.
> It's my favorite drills of all time, regardless of the level of the dog ... the more fine-tuned the dog, the more bumpers and the tighter the angles. It fosters team work, helps me at lining my dog straight, and helps my dog know that I expect him to go where sent despite distractions, i.e., the white bumpers that he has to pass when en route to the orange bumpers.
> FTGoldens


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## Claudia M

FTGoldens said:


> Have you tried running wagon wheel with alternating white and orange bumpers, with white bumpers at approximately 30 feet and orange bumpers out at about 50 feet? With the bumpers being so close, I'm okay with giving plenty of "No Heres" if necessary; plus, pup can run a bunch of these without getting too tired. And if the angles are wide enough, I can tell pretty quickly if pup is headed where I haven't sent him. Also, I can move up if pup just doesn't want to go where sent. (If pup gets a white bumper when I've sent him for an orange one, I'll "sit" him as near the white bumper as possible, take the bumper from him and tell him that he's a bad dog. This is a NO COLLAR pressure drill.) Once I teach this drill, I rarely let a dog pick up a white bumper when running it.
> It's my favorite drills of all time, regardless of the level of the dog ... the more fine-tuned the dog, the more bumpers and the tighter the angles. It fosters team work, helps me at lining my dog straight, and helps my dog know that I expect him to go where sent despite distractions, i.e., the white bumpers that he has to pass when en route to the orange bumpers.
> FTGoldens



Really like this! 

As always, you think you finally got enough equipment and you still do not. I have to get more orange bumpers. Think I have about 3. I have only used them in doubles and tripples with Rose. Darcy, we are starting using them as well. 

Yay - the radios came in! The rechargeable batteries are in and on the charger. They work on either rechargeable batteries or 3 AA batteries. Except if you have the AA batteries it may not float supposedly. It will be play time this evening to see how they work!


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## hotel4dogs

I have done that, but not for quite a long time, and that's really a great cold weather drill, so thanks for the reminder! 



FTGoldens said:


> Have you tried running wagon wheel with alternating white and orange bumpers, with white bumpers at approximately 30 feet and orange bumpers out at about 50 feet? With the bumpers being so close, I'm okay with giving plenty of "No Heres" if necessary; plus, pup can run a bunch of these without getting too tired. And if the angles are wide enough, I can tell pretty quickly if pup is headed where I haven't sent him. Also, I can move up if pup just doesn't want to go where sent. (If pup gets a white bumper when I've sent him for an orange one, I'll "sit" him as near the white bumper as possible, take the bumper from him and tell him that he's a bad dog. This is a NO COLLAR pressure drill.) Once I teach this drill, I rarely let a dog pick up a white bumper when running it.
> It's my favorite drills of all time, regardless of the level of the dog ... the more fine-tuned the dog, the more bumpers and the tighter the angles. It fosters team work, helps me at lining my dog straight, and helps my dog know that I expect him to go where sent despite distractions, i.e., the white bumpers that he has to pass when en route to the orange bumpers.
> FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches

I'm hoping this helps on her blind work. Like I said before she cheats on that really bad.


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> I trained with a more advanced friend yesterday. He thought Lucy was too slow for the bumpers on force to pile.


I don't see anyone talking about the following technique when doing FF but I used it on the last two Goldens that I owned. I had forced them on the table. I then went off the table to the ground. After getting nice fetch on the ground I set up a pile maybe 30 yds. away. At the line I would grab the collar and would pinch the ear flap against the collar with the same hand. I would command "fetch" but hold the collar and keep pinching while the dog strained. If done right the dog will really struggle to get out there but you don't let go immediately, you restrain, then let the dog go. I got an amazing response in terms of speed and drive, a response that I couldn't believe. Maybe explore this?

Just putting it out there. Wonder if anyone else has done this.


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## hollyk

One of the things that has stuck with me from the Rorem seminar is his belief that dogs do not lie but handlers miss the tell. That from the time you leave the holding blind until the time you leave the line with your dogs you should be watching your dog and looking for the tells. Except for a quick look at a flier you should know where those marks are falling before you get to the line so keep your eyes on the dog. Now Winter may lie from time to time but I think more often I miss her tells. On blinds our communication is better than on marks but I have just recently been more active in giving her feedback at the line on marks. I'm new at this, so before this year I always figured marks were her responsibility and blinds were mine but now I'm becoming a better team player for her. 
I do run our lining drill at least 2 times a month and Winter is a nice blind running gal. Also if our lining skills regress I risk hearing the voice behind me say "your dog is telling me you are not doing your lining drills". So while Winter may or may not lie she definitely is a tattletale.


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## K9-Design

gdgli said:


> I don't see anyone talking about the following technique when doing FF but I used it on the last two Goldens that I owned. I had forced them on the table. I then went off the table to the ground. After getting nice fetch on the ground I set up a pile maybe 30 yds. away. At the line I would grab the collar and would pinch the ear flap against the collar with the same hand. I would command "fetch" but hold the collar and keep pinching while the dog strained. If done right the dog will really struggle to get out there but you don't let go immediately, you restrain, then let the dog go. I got an amazing response in terms of speed and drive, a response that I couldn't believe. Maybe explore this?
> 
> Just putting it out there. Wonder if anyone else has done this.


I don't do it with a pile that far away but certainly in the beginning steps of FF I do exactly that. Honestly I think the dogs it really works on are the super compliant, naturally driven dogs who breeze through FF who get the most out of this, or rather, understand it the best. With Bally I did a fair amount of "false restraint" both with the ear pinch as you describe, and later having him pull me hard on a leash to get to a bumper or pile. You're right, it creates an amazing amount of commitment from the dog! It is also proof you're using an appropriate amount of force.

I run the two-tier WW as FT described a bunch, to the point it's hard to get them to believe you when you send them to an up-close bumper. Sometimes you run so many drills they get too smart for them and you can't fool them anymore LOL


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## Loisiana

I'm off for 2 weeks and daytime temps here are between 50-70 degrees so we're getting to do some field training! 

We went out Saturday, and Flip did terrific. Best I've ever seen him work. Well at least with the marking and retrieving part. Being steady and honoring, not so much. 

There's a lot to like with Phoenix in the field, he has plenty of desire, drive, and style, yet has been steadier since he was six months old than Flip still is at 5 1/2 years. One issue we're having is he doesn't seem to get the whole idea of keeping his hunt within a decent area of fall. The way he runs out to the mark you think he's going to step on it, but when he gets within a few feet of it and if he doesn't see it immediately he'll take off on this gigantic hunt. He'll find it eventually, perseverance isn't a problem for him, but he's covering more ground than he should. Any suggestions to keep a dog within a smaller area? I was thinking maybe salt the area with some extra bumpers so he's more likely to find one in that area before he takes off? (Background on him: he's 14 months old, but only gets to train very occasionally. He is force fetched but doesn't handle).


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## K9-Design

Jodie -- use birds. It will fix the problem. Salting the area with bumpers only feeds the problem by allowing him to immediately find a bumper and avoid the dilemma of needing to hunt. Using birds keeps them hunting the scent in the right area.


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## Claudia M

hollyk said:


> One of the things that has stuck with me from the Rorem seminar is his belief that dogs do not lie but handlers miss the tell. That from the time you leave the holding blind until the time you leave the line with your dogs you should be watching your dog and looking for the tells. Except for a quick look at a flier you should know where those marks are falling before you get to the line so keep your eyes on the dog. Now Winter may lie from time to time but I think more often I miss her tells. On blinds our communication is better than on marks but I have just recently been more active in giving her feedback at the line on marks. I'm new at this, so before this year I always figured marks were her responsibility and blinds were mine but now I'm becoming a better team player for her.
> I do run our lining drill at least 2 times a month and Winter is a nice blind running gal. Also if our lining skills regress I risk hearing the voice behind me say "your dog is telling me you are not doing your lining drills". So while Winter may or may not lie she definitely is a tattletale.


 Both in tests and in training I try to watch very closely the test dog and first dog. I try to get a good memory of where the birds fall so I can concentrate on my dog before I send. Darcy is a wiggler so she made me concentrate more on her than the mark itself which in turn helped me put more attention on the dog than the marks.


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## Claudia M

Loisiana said:


> I'm off for 2 weeks and daytime temps here are between 50-70 degrees so we're getting to do some field training!
> 
> We went out Saturday, and Flip did terrific. Best I've ever seen him work. Well at least with the marking and retrieving part. Being steady and honoring, not so much.
> 
> There's a lot to like with Phoenix in the field, he has plenty of desire, drive, and style, yet has been steadier since he was six months old than Flip still is at 5 1/2 years. One issue we're having is he doesn't seem to get the whole idea of keeping his hunt within a decent area of fall. The way he runs out to the mark you think he's going to step on it, but when he gets within a few feet of it and if he doesn't see it immediately he'll take off on this gigantic hunt. He'll find it eventually, perseverance isn't a problem for him, but he's covering more ground than he should. Any suggestions to keep a dog within a smaller area? I was thinking maybe salt the area with some extra bumpers so he's more likely to find one in that area before he takes off? (Background on him: he's 14 months old, but only gets to train very occasionally. He is force fetched but doesn't handle).


What distances are you running him? I would shorten the distance and give him more immediate short successes. Increase the distances slowly. And then alternate short and long distances. I would not salt the area. If he over runs the mark have the station person help and throw another bumper. How is he with birds? The goldens often get saved by their nose. Use a docken with bird scent on it or a bird. See if that will help the marking or extra-drive.


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## hollyk

Keep throwing them Jodie he will zero in on it.


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## Vhuynh2

I'm so happy with Molly. We have not done cold water blinds before and the last time we had done a sight water blind was in October. Since she has been doing so well on land blinds, I decided to set up a short 50 yard water blind. There was a point she had to swim past but she did so well!!! I whistled once when she started going towards the point and then I whistled again when she scalloped back towards it. After that she took the perfect line all the way back. I'm so proud!!!

Edit: I realized she has done cold water blinds maybe twice before. So it wasn't her first real water blind, but still an accomplishment in my eyes nonetheless. We were having so many bad days earlier this year; now we have so many good ones. I have learned so, so much with Molly and through it all we keep building our already incredible bond.


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## Alaska7133

Got the chance yesterday to train with a friend from Fairbanks on sight blinds and basic handling. We had fun. Her dog sits a bit crooked on whistle sits, but puts his butt down really quick. But he had a habit of picking up the bumpers by the cord and swinging them around on the way back. On a lark I ran my guy Reilly. He did fabulous on the pile work and he's not even force fetched. And he can't hardly see out of one eye! How's that for "sight blinds". He's a great guy, he was even breaking on the blinds he was so excited to do them. I didn't even have to establish the pile or re-establish them after a few runs. Miss Lucy was being a pill and didn't want to do them at all. I had to fetch-nic-fetch her every time and shorted the distance up quite a bit to get my point across. Here's Reilly at 3 times the distance than Lucy. Reilly's all happy and excited. Lucy's like why do I only get bumpers today, where's the birds? I wish I could figure her out one of these days. Why does everything have to be so hard with her? I just want to have one easy training session with her some day...


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## K9-Design

Stacey, whoever it said you needed to up the pressure on Lucy's pile work the other day -- GO TRAIN WITH THEM. They are on the right track. Lucy needs a lil Come To Jesus meeting so you are all on the same page about who is going to be doing the running like her rear is on fire. They don't call them bitches for nothing  Especially the conformation bred ones, they have a very honed skill of sandbagging and holding out for what they want. Your job as a trainer is to convince them otherwise.


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## Claudia M

Stacey, have you tried changing training location? Change the training routine maybe? 

Reason why I say this; Rose has her own "cursed place". I have started playing with her after I take her out to air and practice sit/stays and other things to keep her guessing what I want from her and thus she pays more attention to me to get that "what next?" look from her.


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## Alaska7133

Anney,
you are so right! Does every golden show bitch think they own the world or what? They have that look like, I'm so cute you can't mess me up, I'm in a show next week. My only thought now is do a nag at lower level nicks often. Or do I nic once in awhile near the max to really get my point across? It's hard to decide. Some theories say one way some another. Any ideas from anyone?

Claudia,
We train all over with different people quite often. I enjoy getting out to different places and seeing how other people run their dogs. I would say we don't have a cursed place at the moment. Although the back parking lot at work is not her favorite place.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Stacey, your dog sounds a lot like Peaches except Peaches doesn't like a wet duck. But that whole I'll do it if I feel like it reminds me of her. 
As far as the nic, I don't know what Anney will tell you, she's the expert, but for me, I just give Kat one good nic and then it seems that I don't have to do anything after that for the rest of the training.


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## Alaska7133

MOP,
thanks! Luckily, we don't have a bird problem. Lucy's problems are all created by ME! I let her get away with too much for too long. Now I'm paying for my errors. I have been too inconsistent in training. Who would have ever thought dog training would be so hard!


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## K9-Design

Alaska7133 said:


> Anney,
> you are so right! Does every golden show bitch think they own the world or what? They have that look like, I'm so cute you can't mess me up, I'm in a show next week. *My only thought now is do a nag at lower level nicks often. *Or do I nic once in awhile near the max to really get my point across? It's hard to decide. Some theories say one way some another. Any ideas from anyone?



THIS (above bolded) is how you create reluctant, spiteful, begrudging attitudes in dogs! Especially in manipulative, moody bitches! The nagging only creates an unpleasant, uncomfortable atmosphere but never is enough to change behavior!

And nicking "every once in a while" at the max only makes dogs apprehensive and phobic because they don't understand why they got what they did.

She needs to be on a steady, regular program of training to work through the bumps in the road, and it probably will involve a higher level of the collar at more frequent intervals than you ever imagined you'd need - and what you end up with is a compliant, driven, committed dog! Please read my journal of working with Bally through all of these stages. I am very explicit on my collar use at each stage -- both in frequency and level -- so you can get some idea. And Bally was a very compliant, quick worker and very rarely challenged me. We were able to move quickly through each step but with no less collar pressure or lower expectations. 

Again, whoever it was that was watching your pile work before -- PLEASE ask them if they will help get you through pile work. I know you've been at this stage for a while and it's time to shore it up and move on. The longer you linger the more problems you'll have.

And it's not a character flaw or bad omen with Lucy. It's just what she is. She's a bitch, what can you say!! You are going to have to dig deep and put your big girl britches on to train her but once you get through to her and get with the program, you will reap the rewards. I bet you'll never have to ask her twice to retrieve a tough bird and she'll never let anything get in her way. But you have to make her realize that you're the coach and she's the player, not the other way around!!!


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## gdgli

Most people feel that nagging is one of the worst things that you can do.


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## Alaska7133

So I upped the collar pressure last night. Pile work went soo much better! So after that we worked on whistle sits and boy she was way sharper on sits. I didn't nic on the sits at all, just the pile work. Then after all that hard work, I put her on the grooming table and trimmed her up, can't forget she's still a show dog. She was a very happy girl. DH thinks I have a problem being the lead dog and I need to make sure not to blur the line.

Hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas and Hanukah!


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## Loisiana

It's normal to drive three hours each way three separate times in a week and half, just to be able to run your dog on two set ups, right?


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## Claudia M

Loisiana said:


> It's normal to drive three hours each way three separate times in a week and half, just to be able to run your dog on two set ups, right?


You have way more time and gas than I do!!! The most I drive is 2 hours each way. That is my limit. And I only train once a week weather and family functions permitting.


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## Loisiana

They have a group of golden retrievers that meet there weekly, plus I have what pretty much amounts to free private lessons whenever I can get over to that area, so it's worth the trip to me. But I don't normally go there that often, I'm off for two weeks so taking advantage of that.


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## hollyk

Loisiana said:


> It's normal to drive three hours each way three separate times in a week and half, just to be able to run your dog on two set ups, right?


Totally normal.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Its totally normal! LOL. I'm going to be seeking out some field training next year and I'm sure I'll be driving a lot!


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> So I upped the collar pressure last night. Pile work went soo much better! So after that we worked on whistle sits and boy she was way sharper on sits. I didn't nic on the sits at all, just the pile work. Then after all that hard work, I put her on the grooming table and trimmed her up, can't forget she's still a show dog. She was a very happy girl. DH thinks I have a problem being the lead dog and I need to make sure not to blur the line.
> 
> Hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas and Hanukah!


Thank you and the same to you.

Stacey, I am glad that you did upped the pressure. One of the problems with nagging is that the dog becomes conditioned to the weak nic. Typically the trainer increases the the strength a little. The dog becomes conditioned to the new slightly stronger nic. Then the trainer ups a little more and so on. Ultimately, the trainer unintentionally conditions the dog to get used to it and it becomes meaningless.

I wish Evan and FT would weigh in on this.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Today ended up being the first day we've trained in a long time! It has been raining and raining, not to mention busy with the holiday season.

I started off with some learning type triples for Katniss. Then doubles for Peaches with Katniss honoring. That went great.

Next, I did what FtGoldens suggested and placed a wagon wheel with orange bumpers further out spokes and white bumpers closer spokes. It worked like a charm! I loved it. She can NOT see orange at all so much so that she will stumble over the bumpers from lack of noticing them. So I'd send her and Katniss was veering off towards the white bumpers and then I'd bring her back in. Next run she'd go past the white but then start veering off her line. I'd bring her in. Then she'd go far enough to notice the orange but because she didn't take the straight line she'd get called back in. Finally she realized that she'd only be allowed to fetch up an orange bumper if she took a very direct line to it and after that she was golden. 
Next I took it to almost a T. Put a pile of orange bumpers and then two white bumpers on either side of the "line" 3/4 of the way up. I've done this several times but its always a fight. Not this time, after following the wagon wheel drill right before it. I was impressed she did perfect. 

Lastly I did some blinds out abut 75 yards pretty tight together. 

I'm really glad about that first drill. Thanks for suggesting it. I don't know what I didn't think of using orange staggered before but it worked great. We'll be practicing that a lot. She really needs help on lining better, I need to get my Sh$t together when it comes to that. 

Kat is a happy pup right now, she gets depressed if she doesn't train often.


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## FTGoldens

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Next, I did what FtGoldens suggested and placed a wagon wheel with orange bumpers further out spokes and white bumpers closer spokes. It worked like a charm! I loved it. She can NOT see orange at all so much so that she will stumble over the bumpers from lack of noticing them. So I'd send her and Katniss was veering off towards the white bumpers and then I'd bring her back in. Next run she'd go past the white but then start veering off her line. I'd bring her in. Then she'd go far enough to notice the orange but because she didn't take the straight line she'd get called back in. Finally she realized that she'd only be allowed to fetch up an orange bumper if she took a very direct line to it and after that she was golden.
> Next I took it to almost a T. Put a pile of orange bumpers and then two white bumpers on either side of the "line" 3/4 of the way up. I've done this several times but its always a fight. Not this time, after following the wagon wheel drill right before it. I was impressed she did perfect.
> 
> Lastly I did some blinds out abut 75 yards pretty tight together.
> 
> I'm really glad about that first drill. Thanks for suggesting it. I don't know what I didn't think of using orange staggered before but it worked great. We'll be practicing that a lot. She really needs help on lining better, I need to get my Sh$t together when it comes to that.
> 
> Kat is a happy pup right now, she gets depressed if she doesn't train often.


That's great to hear! And the modification you made was a very nice "test" to see if the concept was understood. [I have used the second set up (i.e., a single orange pile in the middle of and beyond two white bumpers) to get my dogs to give me 180 degree turns in order to get straighter back casts.]
FTGoldens


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## hollyk

Well Done MOP!
Doesn't it feel great when you see a concept click into place.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Yes, and it wasn't just Katniss that the concept clicked for. I realized something I was doing bad as well that was hindering her lining understandings. So we both learned today!


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## Vhuynh2

Lately, along with Molly's increased enthusiasm in field training, her line manners have been getting sloppy. Today was the worst, though. She is still steady most of the time for marks, but when I try to line her up for a blind, that is when I have trouble. She won't heel properly and insists on being half a body length ahead of me. I tell her to get back and she does but keeps ending up ahead of me. It is a fight to get her next to me so I can actually try to line her up properly.

We had big trouble on a blind today but ended on a good note and Molly willingly going to the blind again and again. Three or four months ago, she would have offered so many avoidance and appeasement behaviors and it was probable that she would not go again. I pushed her hard today, and she kept going. I think she really is learning that sometimes things can get tough but she CAN work it out and get through it. Is she actually acquiring _confidence_? With my girl, is that even possible?


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## gdgli

MoP

I have also done that drill, running between the white bumpers. It worked nicely.


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## boomers_dawn

We went to the pattern field yesterday and did pattern blinds. Gladys did all 3 perfectly; Dee Dee had learned one and was starting a second, she had to back up and re-learn the first one at distance. I was surprised they did so well for not being there since mid summer! (the grass grows too fast). Now is a great time to use it since it's cut and frosty but not snow covered - so it won't be growing till spring.

I've been kind of surprised how well they do with so little training. It's made me re-think this fixed idea I've had that they can't run SH or MH level without more than our usual weekend and evening training. And since we've been doing more obedience lately both of their heeling is greatly improved.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Vivian Katniss really gets excited at the line with drills and blinds and sometimes gets so antsy that she pulls in front of me and whines. I don't know if she wants to do it or just wants to get it over with, ha ha. She wasn't like this before just since I've left the trainer, I'm glad that she isn't balking like she used to. SO I chalk it up to confidence. I just have to settle her butt down now, which is much better than cheerleading her all the time like I used to have to. I know that Molly is gaining that confidence too, especially since you are as well. 

Dawn, I think some dogs don't do well training all the time. Peaches will give so much more effort if I barely train her, it is as if she gets bored easily. Katniss on the other hand wants to work all the time, it is her form of enjoyment.


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## Alaska7133

Today was beautiful, 25 degrees, a bit windy, but fresh powder in the ground made it so clean and fresh. The snow isn't deep this year, but just deep enough to hide Dokkens when they land. Made for interesting retrieves at times. We've been working on doubles wide and some tight. Lucy is amazing how straight she runs no matter what the terrain, she just never cheats. Which can hurt her at times almost. She comes to the line so nicely and her manners are so good any more. I can easily bring her back to the line if she launches at the wrong bird. She turns nicely at the line and she listens to me. Gosh she has changed so much this year! 

Today I wore a camera hoping to videotape her run. Unfortunately the camera was pointed at the sky so all I got was my voice commands. But that was very helpful. I need to improve my directness. Less wavering in my voice and more authority. It was a bit hard to listen to, but I'm glad I did.

We're still working on whistle sits. I upped the collar to just over the middle point. I'm getting way better results. She jumps on the bumpers and jumps right back to me. She seems happier with the directness. No wavering and nagging. She's moved on now and I think we've worked through it. She's a very good dog.

The location in the photo is a hayfield near Hatcher Pass. I think those are the Sheep Mountains, but I can't keep all our mountain range names straight.


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## gdgli

Alaska

Beautiful 25 deg? So warm, did you have to run the A/C?

Anyway, I found that videotaping dog work required some practice. Good luck with it.


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## boomers_dawn

We went training today too. We did short to long and back marking singles then did a set up. Gladys broke on the marking drill and got zapped good. She sat better after that and ... surprise surprise ... marked better. I've started steadying Dee Dee. She takes a very light touch. All I have to do is verbal correct her to come back and she sits after that. I didn't use the collar yet because we just started steadying and I'm not sure she quite understands everything. Plus she's so tentative, I don't want to make her afraid to go. She hates to not please me. It is amazing to me how much she improved in marking, persevering, and just more confident overall. 

Gladys did a delayed triple at our set up. It worked out well because she seemed a little unsure on the memory bird, but we used white bumpers so once she got out there she could see it and remember. Dee Dee did all singles but there was one hard perseverance single through an opening over some cover which she punched through. 

I was proud of them both, enthusiastic happy workers.


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## K9-Design

Here is Bally's T work from today. Hard to see in the video but I have pink flamingoes (aka decoys on stilts) and two holding blinds on his T field. Still have to work out the kinks on disciplined casting but almost ready to expand to double T.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs-AguNUEy0&list=UUMVIkY_hgeqBlO-ZyvIjTjA


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## Vhuynh2

I have decided to have fun with puppy Rose and not do any formal training. Yesterday we were out and set up two "bigger dog" marks. One of the marks was nothing you'd see at a test (at least I hope!!) but we set it up for fun. The dogs had to run 70 yards, then down a steep hill covered with blackberry brambles, swim across a channel, and run up the hill to the mark. We could not see the dog once they go down the hill until they are up the hill after swimming the channel. The total distance was 155 yards not counting the extra distance for the hills (used a rangefinder so can't account for hills). I don't even know why we decided to do this, I think just for sh*** and giggles. My friend's dog did an amazing job. Molly hunted at the top of the hill on the wrong side of the channel so we re-ran it after I gave her a "back" to the mark. I decided to shorten the mark and run Rose. I have no formal plans for her so I didn't care if the outcome was catastrophic. So I send her for the mark and she immediately runs down the bramble covered hill, cheats along the channel a bit, gets in the water and swims to the other side, runs right up the hill and puts up a hunt, finds the bumper, runs back and swims across the channel and drops the bumper at the edge. I couldn't even blow the come in whistle because I was laughing. The fact that she did this in/out mark with a long entry was comical to me. No previous training at all for this puppy. How funny is that. It was especially cute watching a fluffy butt puppy do all of that. Meanwhile, I'm having trouble with teaching her take it/hold at home, but she definitely knows what to do when she hears the duck sound from the wingers.


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## Alaska7133

I think sometimes we have more fun when we have no expectations and just let things happen. Sometimes we work work work and forget to have fun!


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## Vhuynh2

Alaska7133 said:


> I think sometimes we have more fun when we have no expectations and just let things happen. Sometimes we work work work and forget to have fun!


I totally agree. It is so fun to not have expectations and to just see what happens.


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## K9-Design

That is sort of what happened with my parents' dog Harvin. When they sold their house in Georgia they moved in with me for a few months and we would take Harvin with us when we trained so he could run around afterwards and get some exercise. This was the dog who wouldn't even play fetch with a ball in the yard. After a few times of taking him, he started barking and whining in the car while we ran the other dogs. Eventually got him out and said well let's see how long you like this. Turned out, HE LOVED IT. And was REALLY GOOD at it. He saw his first bumper ever in November, by February he had his JH in 4 straight tests. He was super easy to force fetch, took to fliers right away, and basically was a lot of fun to train. My parents got a HUGE kick out of seeing their dog do this. So I bet you'll have a lot of fun watching Rose learn the game 

Today we did ABCD drill across the training pond, 4 singles per dog. Weather was great  Bally more back pile and stopping in the water.


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## Claudia M

I am heels over the moon or whatever other expression - The Versa Launch is programed and works great. Meanwhile I ran the girls on long single marks. 250 down hill, thru muddy area and up hill, 230 thrown into the corn field ad 260 over a ditch, over a road. Darcy had trouble with the first mark, regrouped on the second and did not run her on the third duck. Rose nailed each of them taking nice straight lines full seed to and fro. Meanwhile got some nice compliments from the trainer there on her remarkable improvement and lines Rose has shown. Worked with the Versa Launch on Darcy. She jus needs more marking exercises, she has the drive and she hunts but because of lack of marking she hunts areas too big for my liking. She does not give up though. 

Then we worked on handling, orange bumpers back in the middle, two piles of white bumpers on each side. Both girls did wonderful. 

Did I mention that I am a happy camper????!!!!!


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