# handler questions about WC and JH rules



## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

Disclaimer: I'm pretty new to all this -- I've run one WC and one JH.



hotel4dogs said:


> When he's coming back to me with the bird in his mouth, can I tell him to "hold it" and/or "get in heel"? Or do I have to stand there silently like in obedience? If, when coming out of the water he drops it to shake (!), can I tell him to "take it"?


For the WC, the dog doesn't have to deliver to hand. The judges told us the relative area they needed to bring it back to.

For the JH, I'm not sure what exactly the rule says, but my guy did drop the bird to shake coming out of the water and the judges encouraged me to talk to him. I did tell him a couple of times to "get it" and he did deliver to hand and they did pass me.

I'd ask the judges you'll be running under ahead of time anything you're unsure about.



hotel4dogs said:


> About clothing....do my pants have to be camo, or can they be something like a real dark brown (saw a nice pair yesterday I might have to have, they were dark brown and I liked them).


I've worn jeans (as do plenty of other people) -- the only camo I own is pink :curtain:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh good, an excuse to go buy those brown jeans


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> First the WC:
> The rules say, (land double)
> "After the dog has retrieved the second bird, the handler may take the dog by the collar and lead him off the line...."
> Does this mean I can't put his leash on him, I have to hold his collar?
> ...


My interpretation of the ""After the dog has retrieved the second bird, the handler may take the dog by the collar and lead him off the line...." statement is to differentiate it from the rule on the WC between birds on the WC double which states "The WC Rules state that a handler may not grab the dog by the collar or neck between birds
on the land double. The handler may, however, gently guide the dog by the collar between birds to get his attention before sending him for the second bird. While some judges may elect to let the handler put one or two fingers in the dog's collar to gently steady him before sending him for the next bird, any attempt, no matter how slight, to pull the dog into place shall be a disqualification. The difference between manhandling or grabbing the dog and gently touching the dog is easily defined by properly qualified judges. Prior to the test, handlers should ask the judges for their definition and a demonstration of "gently touching." So I think that it means that either by putting a leash oor grasping the collar is permissible when leaving the line.
As for your second question on the WC it will vary GREATLY from judge to judge - I have seen judges that are judging together at the same test disagree on this.

On both issues I would hope someone else will question the judges on these issues during the judge's briefing. If not then you should do so.



hotel4dogs said:


> I
> 
> For the JH:
> 
> ...


Judges will not allow you to bring your dog to line, point to the fall/gunners and say "mark". However if when you go to line and set up your dog taping your leg to get him to sit where you want and then say "good" when he is looking where you want the judges will be fine with that. 
As for your second question you can do that. However when doing so you are normally telling the judges "my dog has a problem with that so watch real close and see what I mean". The less talk the better, and the judges do know most of us talk out of nervousness than we do need.
Lastly with the clothing. I find judges much more concerned with tops than pants. I see many handlers wearing shorts and not all those legs are "tan". I do not own any camo clothing other than a raincoat. I do have a green "Hawaiian" type shirt that I have worn and tell everyone it is my "Tropical" camo.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I really have read the rules for both. Also watched the DVD from GRCA a couple of times (it's great and everyone just starting out should have one!!)
> But I want to just make sure I understand a couple of the handler rules regarding talking to your dog etc.
> First the WC:
> The rules say, (land double)
> ...


This is a question to ask at the handlers' meeting as to what the judges' preference is. In the ones I have run we were allowed to leash up after we were released from the line. 



hotel4dogs said:


> When he's coming back to me with the bird in his mouth, can I tell him to "hold it" and/or "get in heel"? Or do I have to stand there silently like in obedience? If, when coming out of the water he drops it to shake (!), can I tell him to "take it"?


Once the dog is close to you you may use verbal encouragement to get them back into heel position. The caveat is that you may not do it while the dog is still looking for the bird out in the field. Here's what the regs say on the matter: "After the judge has called the dog's number and the dog has been sent, the handler should stand quietly on line while the dog is working. No voice commands or hand signals are allowed. These are marking tests; handling is not permitted.
When the dog has returned with his first bird on the land double, the handler may pat his side or speak to his dog by name, telling him to heel, sit, stay, etc., thereby getting the dog ready and lined up to go for the second bird. The handler may not take his dog by the scruff of the neck and pull him into position before sending him for the second bird. He may gently guide the dog by the collar to get his attention and steady him before sending him."​


hotel4dogs said:


> For the JH:
> 
> The rules say,
> "in marking situations, the handler shall not line a dog in the direction of any fall or gun station until all falls are down" (I know the JH is singles, but I want to ask this while it's on my mind).
> Does this mean I can't have him turn to face each gun/fall as they are shot/thrown? He has to face his body forward?


This means that you may not point out the gun stations to the dog prior to calling for the marks as you may do in a field trial or even in the WC/X which are derived from field trial rules. In a "White coat" situation you may come to the line, sit the dog facing each gunner in turn and cue the dog with whatever signal you use (ie hand in, and/or verbal cues like "right there" or "good" or "mark"). Now in a JH the way to do this without violating the rules is simply to bring the dog into heel position facing the mark that will be retrieved! Point your toes at the mark and have the dog aligned in heel position--then their body will be aligned with the mark. When they come in from the first bird, your toes should already be facing the next mark so that when you bring the dog into heel they are already lined up for the second mark. This becomes more complex when you get to SH and MH scenarios as then the dog needs to be in a neutral position in order to see all birds go down, although teaching the dog to swing with the gun a la HRC (even the fake gun you most often see in AKC) can be an excellent aid. Also don't be in a hurry to call for the birds. Let your dog take a look at the field--they learn to pick out the gun stations!



hotel4dogs said:


> When he's coming back to me with the bird in his mouth, can I tell him to "hold it" and/or "get in heel"? Or do I have to stand there silently like in obedience? If, when coming out of the water he drops it to shake (!), can I tell him to "take it"? (same question as for WC but how does it apply to the JH?)


Again, once they get close you can encourage and use your obedience commands to get the dog to come in and deliver the bird. Just keep it happy and encouraging--no harsh or intimidating tones.



hotel4dogs said:


> About clothing....do my pants have to be camo, or can they be something like a real dark brown (saw a nice pair yesterday I might have to have, they were dark brown and I liked them).


For AKC you do not have to have camo--dark will do. For HRC you must. When it is cooler out I like to wear my upland pands that have a cordura facing on them--they shed water fairly well as well as protecting aginst briars and thistles. In hotter weather I usually wear pants in a dark, natural colour in a quickdry fabric. The brown ones sound like they would fit the bill!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks for the replies!!!
Just to clarify, I don't mean I would automatically give him any sort of command when he's coming in. I just want to know what my options are in an *emergency* situation!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yep, a bit of tape, especially heavy duty, on the leg would get him to sit exactly where I want him. Might have to try that in obedience 
Sorry Hank, couldn't resist. At least you know I read every word you write very, very carefully.




AmbikaGR said:


> taping your leg to get him to sit where you want


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yep, a bit of tape, especially heavy duty, on the leg would get him to sit exactly where I want him. Might have to try that in obedience


Thank you so much Barb! I've been looking for the answer to our sit stay problems! :


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yep, a bit of tape, especially heavy duty, on the leg would get him to sit exactly where I want him. Might have to try that in obedience
> Sorry Hank, couldn't resist. At least you know I read every word you write very, very carefully.
> 
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

somehow the vision of Tito carefully taped to my left leg with duct tape (insert Tim Allen noise) cracks me up.


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