# Our Girl Heading to Rescue?:(



## randomBvR (Dec 26, 2013)

Poor thing. You're going about this the right way. Your Subira will find a good home. Canadians are nice people.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks I'm crossing my fingers that Sunday I'll be posting pics of the kids and her having fun together but I just don't know. It's awful for these rescue pups who aren't socialized to no fault of their own, then tossed from home to home bc of it. Breaks our hearts. I can't imagine with all the trust we have developed between us, dropping her off at rescue It's a horrid thought. If we were in any other stage of life...older kids, no kids, etc, we would love her forever.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

What kind of a rescue would she be going to? If she is put in the rescue for aggression issues with children, the chances of her getting adopted drop significantly. I hope it is at least a no kill shelter type of facility.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Yes, the rescue is wonderful. We have befriended our trainer who trains the dogs in this rescue. They are even allowing us to personally go to the home visit prior to adoption for peace of mind. They are a no kill shelter and they don't have a central building...only foster homes. She has no issues with older kids etc....we will see how nervous she is around little ones.


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## Darthsadier (May 17, 2013)

I really hope it works out for the best. It sounds like you have a great rescue that is willing to help. 


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Why do you have to force her to be with children? She is happy and well behaved at home, why must you push an issue with a dog that has overcome so much?
My second Golden Kelly, at the age of about one, growled at my two year old niece. I never risked her being near young children again. She didn't bite which would have been a big difference.
Kelly lived a wonderful, happy life until the age of 12 with our family but if young children came to our home she spent the time in my bedroom. I would never consider getting rid of her because she didn't like children.
Once again, why would you send your wonderful dog to a rescue where she may end up in a bad situation. Keep her with you and away from children!


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi Murphy1, 
I completely understand your point of view and I wish it were that easy! I'm 30 years old and my hubby and I are hoping to have a family...so it's complicated. We spend weekends at the shared family cabin with nieces and nephews. It's just a terrible time of life to have her and we are so sad for it. Some of the trainers who know Subira say that she will be fine with our own kids once she understands what the kids are and grows up with them....
this weekend will be very telling. Thanks for your input. We are so sad that we even entertained for several days not having kids and just having dogs. But I just don't think that's what we really want. Very sad, I know. We are crushed.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

My youngest was 11 when we brought Kelly home. Your situation is much different, I agree it is better to find a home with adults and adult children. A side note....Subira looks just like one of my dogs from the 70's. Sammy was a shepard/husky mix,,,,,a great girl!
Hope all works out well for you and Subira!


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks She truly is a dear soul....one of my favorite dogs I have ever had. We will see how it goes this weekend. Who knows, maybe she needs a proper intro and she will be fine. She is fine with babies after an intro...just lies on her back and waits for rubs...we'll see!!!


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## valita (Apr 23, 2014)

Once a pet comes into our home,He or she has a loving home for life, they become a member of our family, please don't think I'm judging you, I'm just voicing my opinion,I hope everything works out for you.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

I completely understand where you are coming from Valita. And I NEVER envisioned us being in this position. I have done countless hours of volunteering for rescues and see many sad situations. 
The reason this is tricky is that if Subira ends up being aggressive with young children, we cannot safely have children, nor can we go to our family cabin where there are four children under the ages of three. So, we would keep her and decide on zero kids of our own, as well as isolate ourselves from our families. We are at that age where everybody we know has young kids and we hope for our own. We have put off trying for our own bc of this situation.
I wish it were that easy to say we would keep her indefinitely. Unfortunately, if this weekend she proves she is terrified of toddlers, she would have to live in a muzzle and in an anxious state for the rest of her life which isn't good for us or her.
I think if you read all the posts, you will see what I'm referring to. I do respect your opinion though. Only now am I beginning to see that it isn't always black and white.
Thanks


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## valita (Apr 23, 2014)

I understand totally,I was hoping you'd understand that I wasn't judging you, were a lot older then you, both in our 60s. So our family has been raised,our Boston terrier is a little nippy until he gets to know anybody, so we have to keep an eye on him when our grandsons come over,Reba is just as bad but the happy type because she's a puppy, god bless, think postive


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Valita, I appreciate your posts. It tells me that there are good people out there. We certainly would never give our dog up unless they threaten our family members. And even then, we do everything we can to find the right home. We are very anxious and possibly heartbroken if we have to rehome Subira.
Thank-you for your posts and I hope you keep following. Means a lot to us to have support


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Don't put too much pressure on one day. Subira has shown an ability to adjust -- from being terrified of other dogs to being the most popular girl at doggie daycare. It's one thing if she's foaming at the mouth Cujo-style tomorrow but also keep an open mind that this may take more than one session to get her feeling comfortable. Plus if you're too anxious about it, that is bound to affect her in a negative way. I wish all of you the best. Good luck!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

I agree with you. I may take a step back at the cottage tomorrow...I'm so nervous for her and my hubby is relaxed...we will see!


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## Darthsadier (May 17, 2013)

Maybe she will surprise you and be the best dog ever. What ever you do it sounds like you have a lot of support from your friends here.


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

I am not really sure what to make of your situation, Angela. Only you and your husband can figure it out and I wish you a lot of luck in doing so and making the right decision.

Some of us obviously cannot imagine being torn from our pets. I know that I lived through a situation similar to yours with the Lab we adopted when my daughter was five and in kindergarten. She had wanted a dog like the dog down the street from my parents, "Dallas". "Dallas" was a dog of indiscriminate parentage who definitely had some yellow Lab in her. When our next door neighbors got a Lab and decided to breed her, my husband promised my daughter a Lab puppy. Well, they moved away and I went to Adopt-a-Dog.

We ended up adopting, "Biscuit" a 110 pound yellow Lab who was far bigger than Lab standards. He was smart as a whip and very sweet, but if he got into a prey drive he was wild. He also bit (although not to draw blood) any stranger who came onto our front porch until we let that person in. Once we had let the person in, he was fine. He also let anyone come in the back door and he didn't guard the back yard at all. 

Before I got control of the situation, Biscuit *did* bite one of my daughter's five year-old friends on our front porch. These bites were "token" bites. He did not break the skin. He was a Lab, delivering a warning, not a rabid dog going to harm. But they were frightening as can be to the recipients of the bites!

His final act was to bite a female jogger *on the throat* when he had escaped from my husband while my husband was doing yard work. My husband never even knew about the incident. I never knew he had left the yard. Once again it was a "token" bite. She wasn't bleeding. But the skin had been broken so she had gone to the police to make sure that the dog who had bitten her had had his rabies shots!

She was fine. She didn't sue us. I invented ways to keep Biscuit from ever getting to the front door. He never bit my daughter's friends in the house, so all I had to worry about were people entering our home.

When my daughter was 15 she made a serious suicide attempt. Biscuit had very bad arthritis by then and could barely get off his mat on the middle floor of our home in Virginia. I was on the third floor-where the bedrooms are-talking to the 911 dispatcher on the phone. As we discussed whether the front door would be unlocked so that the EMTs could enter, I suddenly started to worry about Biscuit biting them. Even though he could barely move. The dispatcher told me to stop worrying about the dog and stay with daughter to make sure she was still breathing!!!

The EMTs came in wearing huge boots and walked right by a calm, old Biscuit on his dog bed. But I was still, as always, on the alert! I mean, first things first, right?

NewfieMom


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

Biscuit and my daughter

NewfieMom


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Oh wow, thank-you so much for sharing that story. What a beautiful picture of Biscuit and your daughter!! It's like Biscuit knew that the EMT's were trying to help. I"m so glad everybody is alright!
It's a tough situation because we don't see aggression in her at all in any way. People come over and she's all love...trainers can't see her being aggressive...but when toddlers approach her, she seems to get sooo nervous. We grew up with an aggressive dog as kids, who we loved very much and sadly, had to euthanize him after he bit one of our friends. We lived on edge all the time. He was ten and I think that experience scarred me and caused me to be anxious. I have decided that I am going to let my hubby go to the cottage without me bc I think that Subira will feel my anxiety and we won't get the best picture on how this will turn out....I want to set her up for success. I gotta take chill pill man, lol.
Thanks everyone for your support! It's so therapeutic!
Ang


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

Stay calm  

I've been finding some of the issues we're seeing with my Logan are a lot to do with me. 

A few months ago I had him on his leash and he growled at my nephew. I freaked. I realized after that he was reacting to ME. I was nervous, kept him tight on his lead, my voice was different, etc. BF had him near him later without me and my crazy emotions, and he was fine - no issues, no growling. 

I read somewhere a while ago too that it's sometimes as simple as ensuring the dog knows good things come from kids, too - so teaching the kids to give him treats every time they approach for a while. I'm sure that's a 'best case' scenario. 

Best of luck - I know it's rough to deal with issues with your pups!


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

Best of luck. I hope she does well.

I think someone else mentioned it, if I were you I wouldn't give up on her right away even if it doesn't go perfectly. She seems to have come so far already since you've had her, this could be another thing that she can get over with some training.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks guys, we certainly won't give up on her unless it's really bad. And we will fight for the best home possible should we have to. The only way we will is if she's out of this world anxious, in which case we will probably all live in greater peace if we find a home with older kids.
I won't give up right away though, you are absolutely right. Get an idea this weekend and go from there. 
Thanks again for your support everyone!


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

And ya, the plan is to have the kids sit down calmly at first and give her tons of her favorite treats. The older kids can wear a treat baggy and keep giving her great things She will be on a loose leash for awhile so we can better understand where we are at. My husband is so relaxed and calm so he's the man for the job


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## Simply (May 14, 2014)

I don't understand why giving her away is even an option  So she doesn't like kids she doesn't know, you either work on her, patiently and slowly, like you did the other issues, or you let her be and keep her away from kids. Board her when you go out to the cabin. 
Giving her away years before you even have a kid (if you were pregnant now it would be years before it could be an issue!), and even then, the gradual introduction of kids in the family isn't even remotely the same as a strange unpredictable child. 

She is going to sense your stress and think there is something to stress about. Don't put it all on this weekend, she doesn't have to be around those kids rightthisminute. How has she not met them before now?


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi Simply. Thanks for your response. 
In response to "How has she not met them before now?" Everybody has different family dynamics...people living elsewhere for part of the winter. No, she has not met them other than a few times when she was quite growly and my family is not dog savvy, so removed the kids from our place. We got Subira six months ago and rarely see nephews and nieces until summer when we are at the cottage every weekend. My brothers and I grew up with a very aggressive dog and had some negative experiences. My brother was bit severely and scared of dogs for a long while. Etc etc, so I don't blame them for removing their kids
 
Yes, we are very willing to work with her patiently and slowly. We have spent hundreds, almost in the thousands on her training, rehab, etc. We love her dearly.
However, if she proves that she is so afraid that even after work we will be unable to trust her due to aggression towards children, we will be unable to attend our family cottage on weekends, which we normally do four months of the year, isolate ourselves, etc. We simply cannot afford to board her on weekends on top of the private trainers, etc. Plus, that's assuming that when we have our own (hopefully within a year), she will be able to be rehab'd slowly. It's simply not fair to her to live a life nervously. Not fair to us to live nervously. Sometimes it is an unfortunate fact that a dog does not fit in a particular household and my philosophy is find it out sooner than later. This is all if she proves to have an aggressive streak towards these kids. We would fight tooth and nail to find a forever home with older kids, if this is the case.
We actually last minute turned down the idea of going to the lake this weekend and are opting for a time when there will only be a couple adults and one child so it will be less stressful for Subira.
I don't think that my reasoning is way off balance here but I feel as though some judgements are being made on decision making. 
Fact is: We want what is best for Subira. What is best for us. We want children. And for our children to be safe. For Subira to be comfortable bc to put her in a precarious position where she does lash out could result in a worse fate for her. All these things together, we can't always follow our hearts. Sometimes we must make tough decisions. We would never just throw her on kijiji. We work closely with a rescue as volunteers and would screen thoroughly for that perfect fit. 
I wasn't looking to be judged on our decision but rather advice on how to integrate her with children or even some support.
Thanks.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I back you decision. You must do what is best for you and her. Best of luck.


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## Simply (May 14, 2014)

Well frankly, the fact that you are even contemplting giving up a dog you've only had for 6 months so you can vacation, its pretty judgeworthy. If you dont want her anymore, then thats your call, but putting that on her isnt fair. A LOT of dogs have problems with kids for good reason, kids are small loud and unpredictable. I think making her be near them ie- loading the kids up with treats is a terrible idea, you need to just let her chill on a leash or by her crate or somewhere she can observe them for a bit and feel safe while YOU give her treats and tell her shes a good girl. If youve spent thousands on doggy rehab with such extremely positive results I do not understand why it stops so you guys can weekend on the lake or protect hypothetical future kids.
As for your own kids, you are putting the cart before the horse in a big way.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Simply, I respect your opinion. I understand you disagree. I still maintain that although we love Subira dearly, we must make a wise decision so that both Subira and children are safe. We are not making a "split" decision here...this is a very difficult and lengthy process for us.
I think we have to agree to disagree. We probably both have the best intentions for the dogs. I think you had some very assuming comments and I can only tell you, if you knew our love for animals and the work we have done for rescues, etc...you would know, she is in good hands and the decision we make will not be made lightly. We will find her happiness regardless in a way that is safe for her and for my nieces and nephews. This is DEFINITELY not a matter of us saying "heck, we want to sip martinis on the deck at the lake for holidays". I wish you wouldn't assume...
We are still hoping and praying that she will give us a glimmer of hope in the next while so that we can continue to work with her.
Cheers to what we have in common...love for dogs and the support we receive on this forum. Let's not forget that. Peace


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## Simply (May 14, 2014)

I don't disagree persay. I also havent made any assumptions about you.  peace


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My husband and I were in exactly the same position as you when we were your age. My German shepherd did not like children and most people. After he bit my best friend I called many trainers, most would not even look at him, and told me to put him down before we had kids. Finally my vet recommended a behaviorist. This behaviorist was able to get Zeus to react to him and labeled him as fear aggressive. He was afraid of children ( neighborhood children had previously thrown rocks and teased him) and people who were afraid of him. He also did not like most dogs. This behaviorist said that only one out of every one thousand aggressive dogs *cannot* be rehabilitated. He brought another GSD that was going to be put down by its owner for the same reason. He took him, and trained him, and he was now a sweetheart. The old owners even tried to get him back.

Well anyways, with private classes at home and some training tools, six weeks later I had a different dog. He even had me walk him down the street, off leash, walking through a group of ten children and he did awesome. About a year later we had our first child, and he was great. We had him until he was ten when he died of cancer, and we raised two young children with him. He never even tried to hurt them, and would actually always sit amongst them as if he were the third child.

I never put him in a position to fail, if other children did come to the house, he was locked up.

Just wanted you to know that it is possible to rehabilitate with the right trainer.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I think you're making the smart decision by preparing yourself. It sounds like you've done a lot for Subira and love her very much. I couldn't even imagine the stress of having to contemplate losing one of my pups in order to have kids. I think there's still hope for you two and I'm praying her training and experience with kids goes great! Practically everyone I know is having kids and I didn't realize all the challenges.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thank-you so much for that kind and thoughtful post. It gives me great hope!! We are sure fighting for her and will set her up the best way we know how, for success. She has succeeded in so many other areas with us so I'm crossing my fingers!
Our trainer thinks she also comes from a place where she was "abused" by younger kids (in whatever form that may have been). She also has a great need to control movement in people and other dogs so that is hypothetically why she doesn't like young kids' sporadic movements.
So question, did you put him in the room when any kids other than your own were at your place? Was he only good with the children he knew well or could he be trusted in general, with supervision, with others?

Thanks soooo much for any advice. Our trainer has been VERY successful with us and her so far which is why we trust her but any positive advice I would welcome!!


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks Katie for your prayers and hope!! (For some reason I can't "thank" you with the click of the button).


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Here's a very recent pic of Suby...not clear but shows you how fun and loving she is. On the couch with me HUGE smiles, so affectionate. What a bug You can do it Suby, let's work together on this Positive thoughts!


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## Darthsadier (May 17, 2013)

Ang she is such a pretty dog and I don't have a lot to say but I need you to know that i know you will make the best decision for her. It's clear that you care about her and just want what's best for her and your family. If you have to give her to the rescue I know there is another family that is right for her. You are a kind hearted person and many of your friends here support you. 


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thank-you so much. I needed that


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm rooting for you guys. You know I'm here if you want to chat or vent.


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

cubbysan said:


> My husband and I were in exactly the same position as you when we were your age. My German shepherd did not like children and most people. After he bit my best friend I called many trainers, most would not even look at him, and told me to put him down before we had kids. Finally my vet recommended a behaviorist. This behaviorist was able to get Zeus to react to him and labeled him as fear aggressive. He was afraid of children ( neighborhood children had previously thrown rocks and teased him) and people who were afraid of him. He also did not like most dogs. This behaviorist said that only one out of every one thousand aggressive dogs *cannot* be rehabilitated. He brought another GSD that was going to be put down by its owner for the same reason. He took him, and trained him, and he was now a sweetheart. The old owners even tried to get him back.
> 
> Well anyways, with private classes at home and some training tools, six weeks later I had a different dog. He even had me walk him down the street, off leash, walking through a group of ten children and he did awesome. About a year later we had our first child, and he was great. We had him until he was ten when he died of cancer, and we raised two young children with him. He never even tried to hurt them, and would actually always sit amongst them as if he were the third child.
> 
> ...


This made me so happy. Thanks for sharing! 
Love hearing success stories.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks Angie for your support Charlie would say "I wuv my fwends"


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

I just wanted to say that I've read through your entire string here, and I think you are handling this situation in a very thoughtful and caring way. No one wants to contemplate giving away a pet that has become an important part of their family, and clearly you are doing everything in your power to help Subira. 

It is smart of you to get the situation with Subira figured out before you bring your own children into the picture. And for those posters suggesting that you should simply not have children, or keep a child-aggressive dog in the house when you do have children of your own, it seems they don't have a very clear idea of how much work babies and young children are. Being a new mother can be tough in general. Add in constantly being in fear of your dog harming your children, and it would be incredibly stressful.

How many times on this board do we see new posters who have an out of control Golden with kids/babies and a mom who is at her wits' end, frazzled and desperate?

We went through something sort of similar about 12 years ago. We knew we wanted a dog, but also knew we wanted to start a family in a couple years. I did not want to be dealing with a puppy and baby at the same time. So we researched kid-friendly breeds and decided on a Newfie. We planned it so that the dog would be at least two years old by the time we had a baby. It worked out great with the baby. But then my husband started travelling for work. Our Newfie became stressed and started having accidents in the house. We consulted trainers and the vet. We hired dog walkers to come twice a day. We tried everything we could, short of my husband or me quitting our job.

In the end, with the help of our breeder and vet, we all decided that our lifestyle at that point in time was not the best environment for our Murphy. We worked with the breeder and had Murphy re-home to a family with older children and a mom who worked only part-time and was home a lot. It worked out beautifully and everyone was much happier.

You have to do what is best for everyone involved.


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks Tina, 
We are certainly trying to be wise and think ahead with training and possible rehoming. Your post gave me lots of hope that even if Subira is unable to relax around young kids, there will be a healthy and happy home for her somewhere out there and she will end up like Murphy did! 
I feel greatly supported right now and it makes even the training a more positive experience for us. You people are wonderful. I will keep you posted on her progress


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## Simply (May 14, 2014)

CStrong73 said:


> I just wanted to say that I've read through your entire string here, and I think you are handling this situation in a very thoughtful and caring way. No one wants to contemplate giving away a pet that has become an important part of their family, and clearly you are doing everything in your power to help Subira.
> 
> It is smart of you to get the situation with Subira figured out before you bring your own children into the picture. * And for those posters suggesting that you should simply not have children, or keep a child-aggressive dog in the house when you do have children of your own, it seems they don't have a very clear idea of how much work babies and young children are. Being a new mother can be tough in general. Add in constantly being in fear of your dog harming your children, and it would be incredibly stressful.*
> 
> ...


I just want to clarify since I am one of the only voices of dissention that I don't think you should not have children and I don't think you should keep a child aggressive dog when you have children. I DO think you should keep a child aggressive dog until you do have children, because it could be years, and I do think that a dog growing up with a child is completely different experience for them than introducing a dog to a toddler or school age child she is not used to. 

As a mother of three I am not naive to the work involved, and as my youngest is 9 months and we just got a 4 month old puppy (I also have a 7 year old dog) I also know the craziness that can be, so my posts aren't from inexperience. 

But after all of the above, I also think its important to know your limits, and as sweet as your dog sounds, its ok to say she is too much for you to handle and find her a new home. Its *judgeworthy* but it's also okay. Peace again


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## ang.suds (Apr 1, 2014)

Simply, thanks for your clarification.
I agree with you one hundred percent based on what you know about my situation. The only reason my situation is trickier than you make it sound, is because I am with my nieces and nephews on weekends and cannot afford to board her during that time. In your previous posts, you refer to this as "vacationing" bc I mentioned "cabin". It's a lot more complicated and personal than that and without going into too many details, has to do with an illness history. 
I will fight tooth and nail for this girl. If she displays aggression towards these particular children who will actually have to become as familiar to her as my own children in the end, I will have no choice but to find her a home with older kids.
I completely agree, if it were only for my own future biological babes, I would integrate them slowly with her if at all possible. Unfortunately, life throws curveballs and I'm in one right now. 
Subira is definitely a big sweet bug and we will be devastated if this has to happen.
But, I have a lot of peace knowing that the hard work we have done with her has helped break several barriers to her confidence and will surely make it easier to find that "just right" fit of a family. Hopefully it won't have to happen!! I'll keep you posted!
Thanks again for your clarification and support!


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I can certainly understand your frustrations dear. My heart would be breaking too if I were in your shoes. I pray things work out with your nieces and nephews and Subira.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Hoping everything works out for you guys! I totally understand where you are coming from and although I never plan to have kids, I would be in the same boat as you. I hope she shows hope and that you can work with her and she will be able to love babies and kids.


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## sdhgolden (Aug 13, 2012)

I just want to say I have hope for you and Subira and I'm rooting for you guys! Maybe I'm naive but I think that if she was able to overcome her fear of other dogs with you then you have the ability to help her overcome her fear of children. I think you and your trainers have what it takes to make this work. I hope things go well this weekend but don't get discouraged. I 100% agree with you not wanting to have an aggressive dog around children. I don't have kids yet but plan to within the next couple years. It's obvious this is not an easy situation for you and you are definitely not taking this lightly. If you have to rehome her then I'm sure it's because you did all you could and you have her best interest in mind. Not every dog will like kids. This has got to be tough for you so in hoping for the best! 


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