# Guess what I learned today...



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

1 - Better blow that whistle loud
2 - Casting into the wind either means an immediate fade dig back or an over directly into the wind
3 - You end up giving casts all with one arm
or
4 - Your dogs are geniuses and lined everything 

Better be quick on the whistle!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> 1 - Better blow that whistle loud
> 2 - Casting into the wind either means an immediate fade dig back or an over directly into the wind
> 3 - You end up giving casts all with one arm
> or
> ...


Very clever assessment.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

OK, what I saw. Wind is blowing from left to right across a very open field, actually three baseball fields.

1. Both dogs were pushed downwind by the strong wind.
2. I had the hardest time getting Buffy to turn into the wind at all. Very surprised to see her take two or three steps on left angle back then go to the right.
3. Thor took a banana line but then corrected himself. This was a walk around blind for him, cold blind for Buffy.
4. I re-ran it for Buffy by giving her a false line in order to compensate for the wind. She ran a banana line anyway.
5. At this point I am trying to come to terms as to how to handle this in a hunting situation, not even thinking of tests or trials. 

Hunting situation: Get the bird, keep the dog safe around water (although this was land today), don't let the standards slip too much.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

gdgli said:


> OK, what I saw. Wind is blowing from left to right across a very open field, actually three baseball fields.
> 
> 1. Both dogs were pushed downwind by the strong wind.
> 2. I had the hardest time getting Buffy to turn into the wind at all. Very surprised to see her take two or three steps on left angle back then go to the right.
> ...


Thanks for taking time to post here, I don't have much to contribute but enjoy learning.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

False lining is for desperation at tests and trials. Don't lie to your dog in training. That is TEACHING them to NOT carry initial lines, because they get rewarded by changing their initial line. You had a perfect opportunity to repeat the blind and handle to keep her on the right line and fight the wind. This would have been a good opportunity to do a "three-peat" -- set up three blinds in the field all running with a crosswind. You could actually do six, by running them backwards. Even better than repeating the same blind. If you are training, tackle your problems head on (handle, in this case, and correct with attrition and/or indirect pressure for cast refusals/dig backs), don't avoid them (false lining).
Wind is rare here so like you I have to jump on the opportunities to train for wind.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> False lining is for desperation at tests and trials. Don't lie to your dog in training. That is TEACHING them to NOT carry initial lines, because they get rewarded by changing their initial line. You had a perfect opportunity to repeat the blind and handle to keep her on the right line and fight the wind. This would have been a good opportunity to do a "three-peat" -- set up three blinds in the field all running with a crosswind. You could actually do six, by running them backwards. Even better than repeating the same blind. If you are training, tackle your problems head on (handle, in this case, and correct with attrition and/or indirect pressure for cast refusals/dig backs), don't avoid them (false lining).
> Wind is rare here so like you I have to jump on the opportunities to train for wind.


I don't like giving false lines and I agree with you about training. HOWEVER, I do not train only for tests. In a hunting situation, 30 mph winds added to a current could end up with a struggle between you and the dog, a struggle that could endanger the safety of the dog. One day of hunting like this and you would immediately know what I was talking about. I had to get information about what she would do when given a false line which actually had her angling into the 30 mph (gusts up to gale force winds). I do not want to fool around when really hunting.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I would think if you're hunting, rather than false lining her into the wind, you'd send her right at it, let her fade with the wind, end up downwind of the bird and let her hunt it up.
Sound training is sound training. If you teach her to fight the wind and take casts into the wind then there's no worries at trial, test or hunting situation.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

k9

My concerns as a hunter are as follows: 
1) Get that bird as quickly as possible. These are not dead hunt test birds. 2) The safety of my dog. My dogs hunt on rivers and tidal streams in the winter. Strong currents will carry the dog downstream no matter how good you think your training is. This will result in more time in the water. Less time in the water is better. 3) Not compromising my standards too much but maintain a reality of the situation.

Results of items 2 and 3---compromise on standards. There will be some cheating of cover. Also some water cheating. If two of us are hunting my dog may get 12 birds. That is a lot of cold water work. 

I have even talked to guides who allow their dogs to pick up two birds at the same time. Their reasoning made a lot of sense although I find this distasteful.

There may be many who disagree with me but I am willing to guess that they are not hunting where I hunt or perhaps do not hunt at all. Perhaps I can start another thread (so we don't stray anymore) where the hunters on here can have some input.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I'd like to see a more involved thread about this topic. We hunt with Teal and run test, so far just JH level but we're moving into Senior in the spring. I hear a lot from people who do tests that hunting with a dog "ruins" them. We often hunt the Columbia River and it can be quite dangerous. The dog usually isn't even sent for a wounded bird because of the risk that they'll get out of sight.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

ArchersMom said:


> I'd like to see a more involved thread about this topic. We hunt with Teal and run test, so far just JH level but we're moving into Senior in the spring. I hear a lot from people who do tests that hunting with a dog "ruins" them. We often hunt the Columbia River and it can be quite dangerous. The dog usually isn't even sent for a wounded bird because of the risk that they'll get out of sight.


I am not the only hunter on here and I really would like to hear what others have to say. I am offering an opinion(s).

Many say that dogs learn the difference between hunting and testing. IMO, the problem really occurs when you use your dog for quartering for upland birds. Then when you run a trial or test, your dog puts his nose to the ground and hunts for the bird prematurely by quartering rather than running to the AOF and establishing a hunt.

As for hunting the river, I wouldn't put my dog at risk. I would do one of the following:

1) Walk down the river bank with my gun, dispatch the cripple, then send the dog.
2) Bird gets dispatched as soon as it hits the water. Then send the dog.
3) Get in your boat, let the current carry you downstream, dispatch the bird, send the dog. Don't forget, you can't shoot from a boat under power.

Don't forget, the velocity of the river decreases along the bank. A bird at the bank is less of a problem.

I don't like to send a dog after a swimming cripple. I have seen what can happen. The bird swims, dives, pops up elsewhere. The bird will swim completely submerged except for its bill sticking out of the water to breathe. The dog can chase it and never get it. Meanwhile the dog gets tired. Ever see a dog start to go under when tired? Get ready to swim.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I don't have much experience with Upland hunting a trained dog. I haven't been able to hit at all this season, but DH goes out at least once a week. We will send a dog on a cripple if we're on a lake, but not the river. DH goes out to a duck blind on the river, not on the shore. What gets dangerous is when the tide changes. You can see a 5+ foot change in water level from morning to afternoon. In the last 2 seasons, 2 different hunting friends of ours have had to rescued by the coast guard. He takes out a kayak to chase birds when he can't send the dog out. It's good honor practice for Teal because she often doesn't get to retrieve a bird that falls. I'll have to ask DH about how she handles wind and other factors when casted. I know it's translated well so far in training.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Tidal waters can be a problem. The kayak is not a bad idea at all. Nice to use a net in getting the bird in that case.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

gdgli said:


> Tidal waters can be a problem. The kayak is not a bad idea at all. Nice to use a net in getting the bird in that case.


I might have to suggest that. I think they're just dispatching them from afar and then sweeping them out by hand currently.


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