# Lip Curl - Breeder and Behavioralists disagree - Confused!



## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

You will get two polar opposite responses on this forum - people are very divided when it comes to training methods. 

As for me, I prefer a positive reinforcement approach only. There's a lot a good information on the internet about it. It's not always the fastest approach, but it is great for building trust with your pet.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Because we are not there in person, we have to be careful, we can't see the puppy or read body language etc. While dogs are not people, they are all individuals and have different personalities and temperaments and what works with one, may not work best with the next one. I suspect your breeder is a strong and confident leader with her dogs and her method works fine for her. If you don't have as much confidence about what you're doing, imitating her methods may not be quite as effective for you. My thoughts about "middle ground" are that if this were my puppy I would take a long hard look at my 'puppy management' methods. Stop any sweet-talk, kissing up to him and babying him for no reason. That doesn't mean that you can't pet and praise him and show him affection, but he is going to need to earn it more for the time being rather than you just adoring him for no reason other than existing. Look up the training protocol "Nothing In Life is Free" and choose a few main points to work on - for example teaching him to "wait" so that anytime on walks you tell him "wait' he stops in his tracks till you signal he can begin moving again. Use treats and/or praise to reward. When he wants to go outdoors, make him "wait" while you open the door, don't let him move through the doorway until you release him. When it's meal time, teach him "place" where he lies on a small rug or dog bed while you prepared his meal. He is not allowed to move and/or begin eating until you release him from his place. Work on moving the bowl closer and closer till eventually he will do this with the food right next to him. Make meal times about work. Use it to practice obedience. He is not allowed on furniture unless you invite him up (I wouldn't let him up at all until this problem has been worked through). Don't pet him unless he's earned it by obeying "sit/shake" and don't play with him until he's performed something for you. Be very, very consistent with this. Have all family members on the same page.

There are a lot of things you can do to remind him that you are in charge, not him, without putting hands on him. The most important thing I would do is to have him drag a 3 foot leash in the house while he is free and you are supervising. Use this leash to enforce your wishes if he disobeys, don't put hands on his collar or his body. If you grab his collar and he whips around and puts his teeth on you, it could cause you to drop his collar and help build the idea that teeth got him what he wanted. He needs strong and clear signals from you that you are the leader in your home. I am in no way blaming you, I have lived through a similar problem with a Golden and learned a lot. Some dogs are going to take advantage of anything they see as weakness. You don't want to bully your dog but you do want to be very clear about his role and yours. My heart goes out to you on how tough this is. You are getting mixed messages from every angle. It was supposed to be fun and simple to have a great family dog with a little time and training and now you have this puppy being a PITA. Don't give up, you can get through it. DAILY obedience work and clear signals that he is a dog. Don't forget the role that regular aerobic exercise plays in mental health for these dogs. Make a log or track on your calendar so you are honest with yourself about all aspects of the time spent with training and exercise. Make his world smaller if he is causing trouble, give him less opportunity to get into problems till he's done teething and you work through this.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

You'll get many different responses because each dog is different. What is appropriate for one dog may not work for another or make things even worse than they already are. 

You have to teach and train the dog at the end of YOUR leash. You need to choose teaching and training methods that make sense to YOUR dog. Did he/she understand? Did the dog adjust his/her behavior as desired? If the dog isn't getting the message, it's time to find an approach that he/she understands loud and clear.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

FWIW my first golden did a lip curl but it was simply a non aggressive smile


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

One of the biggest triggers of dog bites has to do with grabbing/ taking a dog's collar, as often dogs learn that grabbing/taking the collar is a predictor of negative things going to happen - you take his collar, put him in 'isolation' - very negative consequences for any dog. 

Keep in mind that if your dog growls, curls his lip, shows his teeth he is telling you that something you are doing is making him feel threatened, and he wants you to stop. Simply stopping these behaviors/reactions through punishment can lead to a dog who when he becomes overwhelmed, is afraid to 'warn', and bites because he has no choice left to him. 

Take the time to consider what you want him to do instead, and teach him how to do it. If he is responding to the leave it cue, even for a second, mark and reward it - and then let him know what you want him TO DO. Go to a mat/crate, go fetch a toy, find a ball, or even redirect, to following a few cues for skills he already knows, or time for a walk? 









Ensure that he has appropriate items to chew and keep him occupied, a supply of stuffed Kongs, given at times when you want him to settle or he wants to chew, can go a long ways preventing him from developing and/or redirecting inappropriate chewing.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree with the positive method, bc punishment can win the battle but lose the relationship and the pup's trust in you.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

puddles everywhere said:


> FWIW my first golden did a lip curl but it was simply a non aggressive smile


This runs in my dog's lines too. She doesn't do it, but she has litter mates that do. It is really funny to see.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

cubbysan said:


> This runs in my dog's lines too. She doesn't do it, but she has litter mates that do. It is really funny to see.


My dog does this, too - thankfully, most people know it's a "smile." 

On the original issue: I would never try to take anything from my dog without offering something better - a treat, a cookie, etc. Leave it or drop it is not enough to give up a high-value bone. I just totally nonchalantly open up the cookies near Shala when she has a yummy meaty bone. I don't even say anything or call her over. She almost always chooses to either leave the bone and come for a cookie, or she brings the bone and trades it. She gets the cookie, I take the bone, and she gets another cookie for being such a good girl.

For chewing stuff, like a table leg, or (in Shala's case) the corner of the bathroom vanity, I would distract away from it with a toy, and then spray the surface with Bitter Yuck. Make it undesirable, rather than punishing. I closed the bathroom door, and then just kept her distracted from the table with other toys and better fun. If I couldn't be watching her, she would be in her crate. But 99% of the time, if I was home, she was uncrated. I would move baby gates around so that I could keep her in an area near me where I could see her. It is definitely a full time job - but you can't just chalk up chewing to teething, because they do need to learn that chewing tables is not okay. But, no, I wouldn't do it with punishment. They aren't doing anything wrong in their view - they are just making their teeth feel better. Give an ice cube instead, or another bone to chew on.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Putting a puppy on it's back and staring them down, or "alpha rolling", is threatening. It will result in the puppy either being afraid of you, or feeling like they need to defend themselves against you. I would not recommend this approach. Grabbing his collar can also backfire and make him fight you.

Redirecting to appropriate chew items is a better approach. If you want more control over him, keep a short leash on him and lead him away rather than grabbing his collar. 

He is just a baby, you have to find ways to teach him the right thing to do without causing him to fight you.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

I think that your breeder is probably experienced and can handle discipline quickly and without emotion, somewhat like another dog, if that makes sense. It is probably very clear to the dog. I have no clue if this is your breeder, but there are people out there who scare their dogs into being obedient and some of those dogs are simply being shut down, not necessarily obedient in knowing right from wrong (just playing it safe by not doing much of anything). 

It's hard to say what's going on because I'm not there. But, from your post, your cues sound muddy. You say no, then you say no again and then you put the dog in timeout. You try to give the dog a toy that he is clearly not interested in and then you allow him to go back to the thing to chew on it, and you allow him to chew on it in the first place. He is still very young and needs direction. If he knew what no meant the first time and that another no plus timeout was his punishment, you'd think it would work, no? So, if you are dealing with possible aggression, don't give the dog the opportunity to chew on these things. Put them up, use baby gates/x-pen panels, and do what you have to do to set the dog up for success. Also, do you tell the dog to leave it like you are scolding him? What's worked for me is using leave it as a cue not a word said similarly to yelling or saying no. Leave it simply means to stop what you are doing and come to me. When you do that, you get cookies and have a party and then I'll redirect you to something appropriate. If my five month old puppy is just laying around chewing on stuff, it means I'm unable to watch him and he should be crated or he needs something to do and I need to provide that something. Perhaps it's a chewy in his crate, a chewy next to me or a nap. In my past life as a dog trainer (i.e., the early years) I'd tell my dogs to leave something because they were supposed to do what I said and when they didn't, I'd stomp after them and they'd be in big trouble. My one dog (a Lab) just ate the thing that I was telling him to leave faster and my other dog (a rescue Beagle) ate it faster and then got defensive and threatened to bite. I took him to a behaviorist at Tufts University and she suggested the things I am telling you. 

The second thing is the collar grabbing. That is a bad idea and it can make the nicest dog bite because they are on the defensive. When I did rescue, it was a big issue with really nice Goldens. It was pretty much our one biting issue that we let slide because it was so common and really very much around the collar (as a side note, we only sent those dogs to experienced owners without kids and with special contracts; the Golden only rescue -- we were all retrievers -- euthanized them). Even in Puppy STAR classes we desensitize collar grabbing because it's such a bad habit -- makes dogs bite, makes dogs run away from us and makes humans depend on the collar instead of training to control their dogs. So, stop doing that. If you need to take him from place to place, use a treat magnet (luring). And, take off his collar so you stop doing that. 

I will say, positive training does not simply mean not punishing your dog or using old school dominance theory types of responses (this believe gives +R training a bad name). It starts with setting up your dog to succeed, allowing him to have positive experiences and create good habits, training fairly and as clearly as you possibly can, trying to limit self-rewarding behavior (digging, chasing, barking, etc.) and providing/teaching the dog other rewarding behaviors that you prefer instead. It means not allowing your dog to do the thing that you don't want them to do in the first place. It's not about allowing your dog to make mistakes and then punish them in a less forceful way. It takes planning, consistency and a certain amount of control.


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