# Type and the "Generic Show Dog"



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Many breeders are inclined to breed for large boned dogs with excessive coats. The quality breeders are breeding a more functional dog that preserves the true standard. Nothing in the standard about a coat that requires hours to maintain or feet & legs that are huge. It's a sporting dog and original design was for this purpose! If you look at a dog bred many decades back you can see which breeders are still breeding dogs that are consistent with the original purpose/standard, function / structure / build & coat. 
But flashy seems to sell or just preferred by some breeders and some judges are more inclined to go with flash over function. Structure & temperament should be all golden either way. 
I have one of each  Sips is my heart dog but I would go with the preservation type breeder vs. flash any day of the week. Never again will I get a dog with too much coat and paws like a lion cub. A nice dense, weather resistant coat is the way to go!
This is just my observation and sure the breeders on the GRF can provide better info.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just throwing a bunch of very influential or big name dogs. Please no critiques of the dogs out of respect for their owners and breeders! These weren't/aren't just huge show dogs in this breed, but they were/are also beloved dogs for their owners.

There's a few more that I wanted to add, like Yogi, Beau-D, Stormy, etc... but limited to 10 pictures in a post.  You can look those dogs up on k9data...

These dogs were ALL bred to breed standard - and many of their kids and descendants - have looks/type that go right back to their famous ancestor.

Set look = that headset, coat, size, bone, topline, tail carriage, and even coloring. Heads, pigment, and winning attitude are things that many breeders struggle to problem solve in what they breed. Once you lose one of the pieces - it's tough to get that back. 

If your dog was not bred to breed standard, you are going to have a tough time in the show ring even if a pro handler is talked into handling your dog.











^ Sydney










^ Presto










^ Leo











^ Hobo










^ James










^ Blu










^ Surfurr










^ Whiskey










^ Blue


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Thank you! 

Puddles:

That is my understanding too, but it's still very difficult for me to see. Penalize excess coat, but does this mean the Golden should be a plain dog? Or is it more that flashiness should not come before correctness? What defines too much bone vs the perfect amount? It is all things taken into consideration sort of deal? Sorry, but I really want to understand because it seems to me that all Goldens are flashy, though I believe I have seen some that are "too much"

Kate: 

Thank you!! Those are all beautiful dogs and I instantly recognized Presto, as he is Felix's grandsire and I have explored Felix's pedigree pretty extensively! In regards to the question, these are all very correct dogs and not at all what is considered a "generic show dog"? If these are considered excellent examples of the breed, then what do people mean by "generic"?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I always smile when I see the picture of Hobo. Can you see a family resemblance between him and his great-great grandson? 

(won under breeder judge who happens to be one of those that is vocal about goldens being too extreme, etc)


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

This is just my opinion, but to me “generic” and “mediocre” kinda mean the same thing here. “Nothing special” also applies. None of the dogs Kate posted are mediocre. I so wish there were more shows going on right now because the best way for you to answer this question is to go to shows, study the dogs and the standard, and decide for yourself. Flash and correctness are not mutually exclusive terms either.

Also keep in mind that not a single show dog in the history of the world has been perfect per breed standard. There are some that have been very, very close, but none that are perfect.

To me, everything about showing goes back to the breed standard - and the many opinions of what it means. Yes, there are breeders that develop kennel blindness, and breeders that rationalize breeding certain types of faults, but there are many that breed for the complete dog. Of the dogs Kate listed/pictured, Yogi is a fantastic example of a complete dog. Check out his backend titles and honorifics. (I’m not saying he’s my favorite or anything, and I have nothing whatsoever against the others.)


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Thank you so much!! 

Kate: 

Hobo is a gorgeous dog and I can totally see the resemblance  Good breeding says a lot...

Maegan:

Thank you! I was sitting here thinking that generic meant flashy or over the top and that we were looking for the "plain workman's dog". I have been trying to understand these discussions but whenever I ask for elaborations on what exactly is meant, the answer is always vague and doesn't help me understand at all what anyone is talking about. I just looked at Yogi (it takes me a bit to find all these dog's on K9Data because I don't know a lot of their registered names 😅) and holy cow all those titles! I may not have shows to attend, but I have several videos from the one show I went to in February and have been looking at those videos trying to see type, and structure, movement, correctness


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

You may get several different opinions on what “generic show dog” means, but if people are using that phrase to mean “flashy, but incorrect” then I’m not sure they know what the word generic really means. There are absolutely show dogs out there that are overdone (too much bone and coat) and there are also judges that will reward that, but I don’t necessarily consider these dogs to be generic. I just don’t think they are correct. Many breeder judges and sporting dog judges won’t put them up either. It’s the all breed judges that don’t know Goldens really well that put up dogs like that.

On the subject of flash, you can never discount attitude in show dog. You can have the most correct dog in the history of ever and if that dog doesn’t like to show, then they won’t win as much as you’d think. The ones that basically show themselves are the ones that stick in a judge’s mind. Chloe is one example of a dog with attitude that basically shows themselves and judges love her. She holds the breed record for most BISS by a lot. It’s a lot easier for a judge to see all of the good things about a dog if the dog has a “look at me, I’m awesome!” attitude.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

A golden doesn't have to be flashy to win, and so much about what makes a golden "flashy" is ATTITUDE. You can take a drop dead gorgeous and correct dog in the ring, and if they don't show well, they just aren't going to look good. There are so many things that go into judging and evaluating dogs that it can be overwhelming. I can't stand judges who say things like, "He has a beautiful shoulder" because they left out the other half of what has to balance the shoulder for correct movement. And just because they have what has been decreed to be a beautiful shoulder doesn't mean they can actually use it when they move. These are sporting dogs; if they can't get down and back without tripping over their own feet or throwing them out of the way, then we have a problem. Same about going around the ring; big open side gait has a place.... in other breeds. When the dog's feet are 4 inches off the ground, it's not correct. It's about finding the GOOD in the dogs, and the balance of all of those things, vs just any dog with gold hair. Where we get in trouble is when people fault judge to the point of pointing to the generic dog just because it doesn't have *___*.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Other thing to keep in mind is some people abuse or misuse various terms all the time.

For some people, they are literally pulling up pictures of dogs from 100+ years ago and go gaga about these dogs while skimming over the fact that dog shows back then were not a sport like they are now. 

Quite honestly - I've not heard conformation dogs referred to as generic. 

I have heard of dogs bred for other things and not really conformation being described as a generic retriever by some show folks. I'm not really getting into things like that.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Yes, there is such a thing as a generic show dog.

It bothers me when people pull pictures from even 20 years ago. Not because dog shows have changed, but randomly pulling up picture and "knowing" they were successful show dogs doesn't tell the whole story. There are successful dogs right now that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but because they win, people will breed to them, never having seen them move, and never having put a finger on them. That, in part, is how we also get generic show dogs. Ask a bitch owner why they did the breeding. It will give you a lot of insight about whether they understand structure, temperament, health, etc and how it all gets wrapped up into one big lottery of puppy genetics.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

BlazenGR said:


> Yes, there is such a thing as a generic show dog.
> 
> It bothers me when people pull pictures from even 20 years ago. Not because dog shows have changed, but randomly pulling up picture and "knowing" they were successful show dogs doesn't tell the whole story. There are successful dogs right now that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, but because they win, people will breed to them, never having seen them move, and never having put a finger on them. That, in part, is how we also get generic show dogs. Ask a bitch owner why they did the breeding. It will give you a lot of insight about whether they understand structure, temperament, health, etc and how it all gets wrapped up into one big lottery of puppy genetics.


I think even as active pet owners who aren't breeders... people like myself have heard enough stuff through the grapevine that we would not get a pup from some lines.

Or there's some dogs who I've seen up close in the show ring and was not thrilled about even knowing they have gone on to get HUGE titles (dogs where the handlers really disliked the dogs and felt they had no brains, dogs who I personally think are ugly, etc)...

All the pictures I pulled/posted are dogs who I think were very influential in this breed and they competed in big rings with today's breed standards and level of competition.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Thank you guys!!! The particular group this topic is brought up in is called Canine Construction and Conformation which I enjoy because it offers a lot of insight into conformation that I haven't had before. One of the posts on this particular topics stated, I'm going to quote a piece of one of the posts: "As noted by many, most true breeders no longer look to the show ring to find their stud dogs or next potential bitches. There are so many factors in breeding good sound, healthy dogs that the show ring is no longer a consideration. That is definitely true for many breeds." - Narelle Hammond

These posts are informative, but sometimes too in depth for someone without any experience to quite understand.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

That is a very true statement. Some people will always be looking to breed to a top 10 dog, or the most convenient, but a true preservation breeder is always looking for the best dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you guys!!! The particular group this topic is brought up in is called Canine Construction and Conformation which I enjoy because it offers a lot of insight into conformation that I haven't had before. One of the posts on this particular topics stated, I'm going to quote a piece of one of the posts: "As noted by many, most true breeders no longer look to the show ring to find their stud dogs or next potential bitches. There are so many factors in breeding good sound, healthy dogs that the show ring is no longer a consideration. That is definitely true for many breeds." - Narelle Hammond


That's fine unless it means people are staying home and just using their own stuff.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Megora said:


> That's fine unless it means people are staying home and just using their own stuff.


Yes I agree 😅 I have a lot to learn and on a basic level all of the information makes sense, but when they start getting in depth is when I have a hard time. There are a lot of nuances I still don't quite get


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think you are all referring to style, not type.
Carry on.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

hotel4dogs said:


> I think you are all referring to style, not type.
> Carry on.


What is style versus type?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Type is based on breed function - for instance, all Goldens who can do the job they were created to do originally can really only do it well if they have correct structure peer the Breed Standard. Everything- EVERYTHING- is for a reason. The stop, it's there so the dog can see over the bird in the water. If it's absent (ski slope stop) the bird is too high in the water. 
The shoulder layback and upper arm play into ability to work all day, etc. Every part of the dog is the way it is because we needed it to be that way originally. The Breed Standard has changed very little. 
Style otoh is a more fluid thing, and that's what we see changing. 

Among my dogs I have a super correct bitch, in almost every way. She gets better as she ages. However, she dislikes showing so finishing her took forever. I could have put her away, bred her in hopes of getting a showier bitch from her, but that OD just calls to me so I did spend the money to get her finished. She was one of that 'win a huge open class and still go reserve' to a showier bitch.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Thank you Robin!

That is what I struggle with understanding, if you have a super correct dog, including temperament, what about the showier dog has it come first? I often hear on my podcast of breeders and handlers talking about the "it" factor. Is that "it" factor the showiness you're referring to? 

Is this what people are referring to when they say they say that the show ring is no longer the main factor in looking for their breeding prospects, because it is not always the most correct dog that wins? 

And on that same note, if excellent breeders can tell what they want to breed to, how detrimental is it to the breed to be putting the showier dog first over the more correct dog? I have not seen enough shows in person nor have I seen enough Goldens to say that I have seen this in action, but the sentiment seems echo across many breeders (though I sometimes wonder if some echo it because they don't understand why their dogs are not doing well in the ring) and I want to understand it. 

Dogs are something I want to be good at understanding and seeing, I understand it takes many years, but I want to be able to look at a dog and really see the quality of that animal and understanding type vs style vs "it" factor I think plays along with that.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The easiest way to think of it is type is what makes a Golden Retriever a Golden Retriever vs a Labrador retriever or a Flat Coated retriever etc.
Style is what makes one Golden Retriever different from (or the same as) another Golden Retriever.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

hotel4dogs said:


> The easiest way to think of it is type is what makes a Golden Retriever a Golden Retriever vs a Labrador retriever or a Flat Coated retriever etc.
> Style is what makes one Golden Retriever different from (or the same as) another Golden Retriever.


Thank you!

So all breeders should breed for type and no one style (as long as it adheres to type), should be valued higher than the other outside of personal preference, right?

So how does this tie into what is being referred to as the "generic show dog"? Is this a style of dog that deviates from the breed standard in a specific way (temperament, bone, etc)? Or something else?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

On the showiness/it factor thing: Think about it this way, if a really correct and beautiful dog doesn’t like to show, they prevent a judge from seeing all of the good in them. For instance, if they hunch their shoulder or lean back during an exam, the judge can’t feel the correctness of their front assembly very well. If they don’t carry their head well when gaiting then their overall outline doesn’t look as good. If they get squatt-y during an exam because they don’t like it very much, then their balance looks off and the top line will look slope-y. If they are reluctant to put their ears up and show expression, the judge can’t see the alert, intelligent expression that a Golden should have. The judge can only go on what the dog and handler give them that day. So, if the showy, but less correct dog stands confidently and struts their stuff like they own the place, the judge has an easier time of seeing all of the good things about the dog.

I’ll use my own dog as an example: normally she is all fun and attitude, but at the Louisville show, she got dead tail and was in pain. So, she got a little hunch-y during the exams and she could feel my nerves traveling straight down the lead. The breeder judge that I thought would like her couldn’t feel her nice front assembly and her outline wasn’t right when gaiting because she couldn’t hold her tail up. Her expression wasn’t as bright as usual because her tail was hurting. So, she didn’t bring home any ribbons. (And then the rest of the weekend got cancelled and of course her tail came back up the next day.)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> The easiest way to think of it is type is what makes a Golden Retriever a Golden Retriever vs a Labrador retriever or a Flat Coated retriever etc.
> Style is what makes one Golden Retriever different from (or the same as) another Golden Retriever.


It's worth the satirical comment here - there are some people in this breed, including some who are aspiring and God forbid well established breeders, who think the main difference between a golden retriever and a FCR is color. 😶


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you!
> 
> So all breeders should breed for type and no one style (as long as it adheres to type), should be valued higher than the other outside of personal preference, right?
> 
> So how does this tie into what is being referred to as the "generic show dog"? Is this a style of dog that deviates from the breed standard in a specific way (temperament, bone, etc)? Or something else?


The "generic show dog" thing goes back to something Lesley said earlier, I'm just going to use different words: when breeders choose the "dog of the day" in the show ring for their bitch instead of really evaluating whether that stud is right for their bitch, they end up with generic puppies. Sure the puppies might be nice, but they won't be special. They won't be as good as they could have been if the breeder had chosen the right stud for their bitch. They end up being generic and mediocre. Just ok as far as show dogs go. Finishable, sure, but not great. Anyone with enough time and money can get a dog finished. I guarantee that people have bred to whoever the number one dog was at the time because he was winning, not because he was correct or the best option for their bitch. A generic show dog isn't any specific style and they don't necessarily have any specific faults (although many have terrible front assemblies. just terrible). You can have generic show dogs in many different styles, but there are so many faults a dog can have that it's hard to pin down one that consistently shows up in generic show dogs (besides bad front assemblies).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Your first statement, more or less, yes. But you see certain styles become fashionable and win, style is subjective for the judge. So some breeders who like to play the show game breed for whatever style is in fashion at the moment, and some will breed to the #1 or #2 dog just because they want to produce the winning style.
In theory, every dog in the show ring (IN THEORY) is to the standard, so the style doesn't deviate from the standard, no. But there's a lot of room for interpretation in the standard, so what one judge sees as, for example, a correct coat, might seem very thin and underdone to another judge, and overdone to yet another. But all are correct type, and to the breed standard. 
You may hear old time people who actually know what they are talking about refer to a dog in the ring as "very type-y". It means that the particular dog is very, very close to the blueprint of what makes a Golden Retriever a Golden Retriever.
You might enjoy the old but classic book by Richard Beauchamp, "Solving the Mysteries of Breed Type". 





Tagrenine said:


> Thank you!
> 
> So all breeders should breed for type and no one style (as long as it adheres to type), should be valued higher than the other outside of personal preference, right?
> 
> So how does this tie into what is being referred to as the "generic show dog"? Is this a style of dog that deviates from the breed standard in a specific way (temperament, bone, etc)? Or something else?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Mostly agree with you, but I want to add that the specific faults seem to go in cycles. The fault de jour is bad front assemblies. But when Tito was showing, circa 2009-2010, the biggest faults were long bodies and short legs. Oh, and massive dripping coats. 
Fortunately a lot of that has been cleaned up.
I loved it when a breeder would contact me about breeding Tito to their bitch and would begin with something like, "he's such a cobby guy, it's exactly what I need in my lines". I knew right there here was someone I wanted to talk to.




ArkansasGold said:


> The "generic show dog" thing goes back to something Lesley said earlier, I'm just going to use different words: when breeders choose the "dog of the day" in the show ring for their bitch instead of really evaluating whether that stud is right for their bitch, they end up with generic puppies. Sure the puppies might be nice, but they won't be special. They won't be as good as they could have been if the breeder had chosen the right stud for their bitch. They end up being generic and mediocre. Just ok as far as show dogs go. Finishable, sure, but not great. Anyone with enough time and money can get a dog finished. I guarantee that people have bred to whoever the number one dog was at the time because he was winning, not because he was correct or the best option for their bitch. A generic show dog isn't any specific style and they don't necessarily have any specific faults (although many have terrible front assemblies. just terrible). You can have generic show dogs in many different styles, but there are so many faults a dog can have that it's hard to pin down one that consistently shows up in generic show dogs (besides bad front assemblies).


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Wow thank you!!

Maegan, I think that helps me understand a lot more. So the dog has to be confident in the ring, show that it wants to be there. But also that breeding is more than just putting "X winning dog" and "Y winning dog" together. A breeder should produce a dog that is true to breed standard, not just a dog that is the offspring of two high winning dogs. Just because a dog is winning a lot doesn't necessarily mean it is the best example of the breed nor the best animal to use in your breeding program.



hotel4dogs said:


> Your first statement, more or less, yes. But you see certain styles become fashionable and win, style is subjective for the judge. So some breeders who like to play the show game breed for whatever style is in fashion at the moment, and some will breed to the #1 or #2 dog just because they want to produce the winning style.
> In theory, every dog in the show ring (IN THEORY) is to the standard, so the style doesn't deviate from the standard, no. But there's a lot of room for interpretation in the standard, so what one judge sees as, for example, a correct coat, might seem very thin and underdone to another judge, and overdone to yet another. But all are correct type, and to the breed standard.
> You may hear old time people who actually know what they are talking about refer to a dog in the ring as "very type-y". It means that the particular dog is very, very close to the blueprint of what makes a Golden Retriever a Golden Retriever.
> You might enjoy the old but classic book by Richard Beauchamp, "Solving the Mysteries of Breed Type".


I actually have that book  I've read through it, in particular, the chapter where he discusses the correct temperament of the Golden Retriever.

Edit:

We use "type-y" a lot with horses. I'm used to hearing my trainers and such refer to a horse as "typey" in the hunter, when the animal is bigger boned, solid, calm temperament, with a huge ground covering stride where the horse hardly picks up its feet with the natural rocking horse canter, and perfect form over fences. We have other hunters who aren't necessarily "type-y", maybe they're a more athletic looking animal and lighter boned, but they still manage to get the job done, but not as well. Sometimes, though, these less typey animals have the best riders and trainers and owners with more money who can take them to the top. The only difference is that in horses, these animals may win, but they aren't usually bred.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok I'm going to open a MASSIVE can of worms here, but this exactly is why so many dogs do so much better with handlers. Now I'm not saying there is NO politics going on, there certain is. But a huge amount of the time it's really just that the handler, since that's what they do all the time, is able to bring out the best in dogs. 
I, too, will use my own dog as an example.
I move like a baby hippo with gas pains. When I showed Tito, and I did in fact put a few points on him, he would move terrible trying not to get out ahead of me too much and drag me around the ring. He would have short, choppy little strides with his front legs, more like a terrier than a Golden.
But as soon as I got a handler to take him in, and she was not a "big name", he immediately finished with 3 majors including a couple of 4 point majors, back in the day when you needed 25 dogs for a 4 point. She was not by any stretch of the imagination someone that the judges put up just because of who she was. Far from it. But she moves like a gazelle, and she is a true dog whisperer, and she was able to bring out the absolute best in him, every time, at every show. She was able to show the judges exactly what he's all about, and the rest is history as they say.
If I had continued to show him, he probably never would have finished. It took someone who could present the dog well. As you said, the judges had an easier time seeing all of the good things about him. 





ArkansasGold said:


> On the showiness/it factor thing: Think about it this way, if a really correct and beautiful dog doesn’t like to show, they prevent a judge from seeing all of the good in them. For instance, if they hunch their shoulder or lean back during an exam, the judge can’t feel the correctness of their front assembly very well. If they don’t carry their head well when gaiting then their overall outline doesn’t look as good. If they get squatt-y during an exam because they don’t like it very much, then their balance looks off and the top line will look slope-y. If they are reluctant to put their ears up and show expression, the judge can’t see the alert, intelligent expression that a Golden should have. The judge can only go on what the dog and handler give them that day. So, if the showy, but less correct dog stands confidently and struts their stuff like they own the place, the judge has an easier time of seeing all of the good things about the dog.
> 
> I’ll use my own dog as an example: normally she is all fun and attitude, but at the Louisville show, she got dead tail and was in pain. So, she got a little hunch-y during the exams and she could feel my nerves traveling straight down the lead. The breeder judge that I thought would like her couldn’t feel her nice front assembly and her outline wasn’t right when gaiting because she couldn’t hold her tail up. Her expression wasn’t as bright as usual because her tail was hurting. So, she didn’t bring home any ribbons. (And then the rest of the weekend got cancelled and of course her tail came back up the next day.)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yep, especially the part where he describes how incorrect the temperament is of most Goldens in the show ring...saying they are not supposed to be on their toes, in your face dogs. They are the "good ol' boys" of the sporting dog world.
I had the honor of showing to him at Tito's very first show. 150+ Goldens entered.
Tito was basically ungroomed, and neither he nor I had a clue what we were doing. We were in a class of 12 or so dogs, and he gave Tito 4th. Told me I had a really fine dog.
It was my first show (nothing like jumping in with both feet!). No idea what to do or expect. I literally didn't have a grooming table, didn't bring a blow dryer, nothing. Just combed him out at home then jumped in the car and drove. It was a benched show, and he chilled out on top of his crate since I had no table.
When our class went in the ring, Mr. Beauchamp looked at all the dogs and did the basic stuff. He never gave Tito a second look. I was devastated. He had many of them gait a second time, but not me, just sent us to the end of the line. I was close to tears, thinking I must have a really, really awful dog, and how stupid I was for thinking I could do this.
Imagine my shock when he gave us 4th place!!
I told my conformation instructor, who knew Beauchamp well, and he just laughed. He said, oh, Rich knows the best dogs in the ring from the moment they walk in. Then he just looks closer at the ones he's pretty much eliminated, to be sure he didn't miss something.
For fun, here's Tito at his first show. Note my idea of having my dog ready when the judge is looking them all over lol. Sorry it's blurry but you can tell he's pretty well ungroomed. 












Tagrenine said:


> I actually have that book  I've read through it, in particular, the chapter where he discusses the correct temperament of the Golden Retriever.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The Golden should be judged as* primarily a hunting dog*. If the judges were to keep that in mind (God forbid with some of them), the question of flashiness vs. correctness just wouldn't even come up. A proper Golden coat can get loaded with mud and burrs, and be combed out with very little trouble (and a little Cowboy Magic). It should be thick enough to keep them warm on cold hunting days, and have a nice double layer for repelling water when they do the waterfowl retrieves. So no, a "plain dog" is totally incorrect.
The coat is supposed to lie "like a jacket". It should be any shade of Gold, as long as it's lusterous.
The "belly fur" is actually a drip rim. If you watch a wet Golden, the water runs down their sides and runs off the belly fur. Yes, it really does have a purpose. The "pants" and thick tail serve to keep them warm when sitting on cold ground in a blind waiting for their hunter to down a bird. 
The "ruff" is critical. It should be thick enough to protect their neck and chest from brambles, they were from the rough highlands of Scotland. When I would take Tito out in the field with my friend and her weimeraner, her dog was always all scratched up and Tito never had even a slight ding on him. That's the purpose of the ruff. Protection, but not so thick that you can't get them quickly cleaned up and de-burred afterward.
As far as bone, they need enough bone to be able to carry heavy birds back all day long. They need sufficient bone to not break anything in the rough field conditions that they upland hunt in. But too much bone results in a heavy dog that can't be readily lifted into your duck boat, or in a heavy dog that can't be lifted over a barbed wire fence to continue the hunt (which is why they're not supposed to be over a certain weight....)
Every inch of the dog is* primarily a hunting dog. * 




Tagrenine said:


> Thank you!
> 
> That is my understanding too, but it's still very difficult for me to see. Penalize excess coat, but does this mean the Golden should be a plain dog? Or is it more that flashiness should not come before correctness? What defines too much bone vs the perfect amount? It is all things taken into consideration sort of deal? Sorry, but I really want to understand because it seems to me that all Goldens are flashy, though I believe I have seen some that are "too much"


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yep, especially the part where he describes how incorrect the temperament is of most Goldens in the show ring...saying they are not supposed to be on their toes, in your face dogs. They are the "good ol' boys" of the sporting dog world.
> I had the honor of showing to him at Tito's very first show. 150+ Goldens entered.
> Tito was basically ungroomed, and neither he nor I had a clue what we were doing. We were in a class of 12 or so dogs, and he gave Tito 4th. Told me I had a really fine dog.
> It was my first show (nothing like jumping in with both feet!). No idea what to do or expect. I literally didn't have a grooming table, didn't bring a blow dryer, nothing. Just combed him out at home then jumped in the car and drove. It was a benched show, and he chilled out on top of his crate since I had no table.
> ...



That is a crazy story  I keep hearing over and over how competitive it is and how, unless I practice, practice, practice, I won't stand a chance (which may be true, Tito is a nice dog and Felix may need more help than an amateur can give him 😅). But that is an uplifting story. I was listening to a podcast about Goldens and dog shows, and this particular man, Michael Faulkner, (I regretably do not quite know how influential he to the breed, but to my understanding it is a lot) he said that he was (I'm going to incorrectly phrase because I don't remember the exact wording), that he was tired of seeing how some of the paws are overgroomed and drilled into the ground how the Golden is a sporting breed first and foremost and and athlete.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

In my humble and often wrong opinion, the biggest detriment came when the AKC introduced the GCH title in an effort to get people to continue to show (and pay the AKC more money) and also due to the keeping track of breed points and dogs' standings in the show ring world.
This removed the original purpose of getting independent, unbiased opinions as to whether or not a dog was suitably to the breed standard to be bred. That was the original purpose of dog shows. The dog either was a CH, or was not. Easy peasy. No popular sire breeding every bitch in heat to the #1 dog, no breeding to win the most points by having the dog with the biggest head or drippiest coat, and on and on and on.
The dog show world has now become a fun, expensive, highly competitive game. Totally removed from what it was originally meant to be.





Tagrenine said:


> Is this what people are referring to when they say they say that the show ring is no longer the main factor in looking for their breeding prospects, because it is not always the most correct dog that wins?
> 
> And on that same note, if excellent breeders can tell what they want to breed to, how detrimental is it to the breed to be putting the showier dog first over the more correct dog? I have not seen enough shows in person nor have I seen enough Goldens to say that I have seen this in action, but the sentiment seems echo across many breeders (though I sometimes wonder if some echo it because they don't understand why their dogs are not doing well in the ring) and I want to understand it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And passing along the advice given to me by a very, very well known Golden handler. Stick to the bigger shows, you get better judges at bigger shows. The smaller shows your judge may be judging bulldogs, terriers, and Goldens. They just put up the flashiest dog or the handler they recognize. The big shows, you more often get someone who actually knows what a Golden is supposed to look like.
Tito went BOW over 70+ other dogs at a specialty, but couldn't win (more than once) over 3 dogs for his last point! Several times!
So we entered a big show instead, and sure enough, he finished that day.

Regarding Michael Faulkner, look up the Verdoro Goldens on K9data and you'll see the style of dog he likes.




Tagrenine said:


> That is a crazy story  I keep hearing over and over how competitive it is and how, unless I practice, practice, practice, I won't stand a chance (which may be true, Tito is a nice dog and Felix may need more help than an amateur can give him 😅). But that is an uplifting story. I was listening to a podcast about Goldens and dog shows, and this particular man, Michael Faulkner, (I regretably do not quite know how influential he to the breed, but to my understanding it is a lot) he said that he was (I'm going to incorrectly phrase because I don't remember the exact wording), that he was tired of seeing how some of the paws are overgroomed and drilled into the ground how the Golden is a sporting breed first and foremost and and athlete.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Thank you!



hotel4dogs said:


> The Golden should be judged as* primarily a hunting dog*. If the judges were to keep that in mind (God forbid with some of them), the question of flashiness vs. correctness just wouldn't even come up. A proper Golden coat can get loaded with mud and burrs, and be combed out with very little trouble (and a little Cowboy Magic). It should be thick enough to keep them warm on cold hunting days, and have a nice double layer for repelling water when they do the waterfowl retrieves. So no, a "plain dog" is totally incorrect.
> The coat is supposed to lie "like a jacket". It should be any shade of Gold, as long as it's lusterous.
> The "belly fur" is actually a drip rim. If you watch a wet Golden, the water runs down their sides and runs off the belly fur. Yes, it really does have a purpose. The "pants" and thick tail serve to keep them warm when sitting on cold ground in a blind waiting for their hunter to down a bird.
> The "ruff" is critical. It should be thick enough to protect their neck and chest from brambles, they were from the rough highlands of Scotland. When I would take Tito out in the field with my friend and her weimeraner, her dog was always all scratched up and Tito never had even a slight ding on him. That's the purpose of the ruff. Protection, but not so thick that you can't get them quickly cleaned up and de-burred afterward.
> ...


This is very nice to read. The other day someone commented that Felix dried fast compared to their dog and I would suspect it's partially because of his feathers and partially because he has a correct coat. It makes sense now, I had always wondered about the coat. I also think about bone density often and how much is too much vs too little...I find I have a preference for a certain head style over others, but as long as both heads are within standard and functionally correct, I believe that is okay 



hotel4dogs said:


> In my humble and often wrong opinion, the biggest detriment came when the AKC introduced the GCH title in an effort to get people to continue to show (and pay the AKC more money) and also due to the keeping track of breed points and dogs' standings in the show ring world.
> This removed the original purpose of getting independent, unbiased opinions as to whether or not a dog was suitably to the breed standard to be bred. That was the original purpose of dog shows. The dog either was a CH, or was not. Easy peasy. No popular sire breeding every bitch in heat to the #1 dog, no breeding to win the most points by having the dog with the biggest head or drippiest coat, and on and on and on.
> The dog show world has now become a fun, expensive, highly competitive game. Totally removed from what it was originally meant to be.


I hear this often from many people. A lot of people also think they should get rid of Groups/BIS/etc and just focus on the breeds, but I honestly don't really have enough experience to understand why they feel this way, though a vague idea is forming. 



hotel4dogs said:


> And passing along the advice given to me by a very, very well known Golden handler. Stick to the bigger shows, you get better judges at bigger shows. The smaller shows your judge may be judging bulldogs, terriers, and Goldens. They just put up the flashiest dog or the handler they recognize. The big shows, you more often get someone who actually knows what a Golden is supposed to look like.
> Tito went BOW over 70+ other dogs at a specialty, but couldn't win (more than once) over 3 dogs for his last point! Several times!
> So we entered a big show instead, and sure enough, he finished that day.
> 
> Regarding Michael Faulkner, look up the Verdoro Goldens on K9data and you'll see the style of dog he likes.


Thank you!!! I will keep this in mind


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

And sometimes the dog itself is just not the same dog on different days. The moving dog was acting like a total ass, completely over the top jerk. Wouldn't bait, wouldn't let himself be stacked, moved like a *******. Acted like he was bouncing off the walls during gun dog sweeps and hunting retriever.









Same dog winning Select Dog from the Hunting Retriever class at an all breed show.










Some days they just aren't the same dog. Make sure the one you "judge" is the real dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Which brings up another excellent point. The judge can only judge the dog that is being presented on that day, not the potential that the dog has....



BlazenGR said:


> And sometimes the dog itself is just not the same dog on different days. The moving dog was acting like a total ass, completely over the top jerk. Wouldn't bait, wouldn't let himself be stacked, moved like a *****. Acted like he was bouncing off the walls during gun dog sweeps and hunting retriever.
> View attachment 876139
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Wow that is a good point! I guess when they're uncooperative you have to just ride it out and hope it's better next time. Are there ever penalties for unruly or disruptive behavior, maybe in young dogs? Or do judges tend to be forgiving?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I think the judges feel sorry for the handler when a dog acts up..


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Especially in the puppy classes, which can be quite amusing to watch!



Prism Goldens said:


> I think the judges feel sorry for the handler when a dog acts up..


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Tagrenine said:


> Wow that is a good point! I guess when they're uncooperative you have to just ride it out and hope it's better next time. Are there ever penalties for unruly or disruptive behavior, maybe in young dogs? Or do judges tend to be forgiving?


Here’s a humble brag story for you on this subject: Last October we were at a two day show that sometimes gets majors, sometimes not. It tends to conflict with the Golden National. Anyway, it was Eevee’s second weekend of real shows and we were in the 6-9 class. The first day, she was a total spazz. Almost jumped out of the ring to greet another dog (it was way too close anyway, and this venue has really low ring dividers), wiggled during her exam, galloped on the down and back and on the go around, and got last in her class (4th/4). The next day she was a totally different dog! She walked in like she owned the place, stood still for her exam, flew around the ring like she was an experienced special, and proceeded to win her class. We go in for Winners and she is just on. Nails everything the judge asks us to do and then takes home WB for 2 points. Moral of the story is that no, judges don’t officially penalize you for a puppy being a puppy. It really does depend on which version of your dog goes into the ring with you. Sometimes that depends a lot on you. If I relax, she relaxes and shows like a pro. If I’m nervous, she’s an *******. Lol


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Thank you all!!

I know Felix is going to be absolutely awful, so I'm glad nobody will hold it against me lol. Do you find Eevee was sillier at bigger shows or smaller shows? Or was it just random?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you all!!
> 
> I know Felix is going to be absolutely awful, so I'm glad nobody will hold it against me lol. Do you find Eevee was sillier at bigger shows or smaller shows? Or was it just random?


Random. She started going to shows at 7 months, so I’m sure Felix will be fine. She behaves pretty well now most of the time. I do gallop her outside the ring sometime to get it out of her system. Lol


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

God I hope so lol I'll be sure to get videos, he's certainly full of himself


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Random. She started going to shows at 7 months, so I’m sure Felix will be fine. She behaves pretty well now most of the time. I do gallop her outside the ring sometime to get it out of her system. Lol


Do you know if the Lima show in Oct is still on??? I'm debating about entering the show (or trying to) in hopes of getting in this time... am reaching out to the super to see what's going on + get a premium from them if I can. (things are just so weird right now).

Kinda on subject a little... the judge on Sat (Judith Brown) gave Jovi a major reserve (4 point major) back in January. He moved his feet and gave her googoo eyes when I was trying to get him to stand still during the exam.  He did move beautifully - it's one thing I'm griping about this whole summer is that he found his groove for gaiting vs dragging me around. 

I think the take away is if your dog's issue is setting up and baiting well for the judge, you might be OK with most judges. 

If your dog's issue is gaiting and really does a lot of clowning around instead of moving nice -you might get dumped out there. 

Glee got 2nd in his class even while I approached the judge with an apology stating that he didn't know how to stand still. He was full of puppy wiggles - but gaited perfectly. Judge had a good laugh about the wiggles and puppy behavior - and I was very proud in retrospect at how serious he was going around the ring. <= again, movement's is pretty important with this breed.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> Do you know if the Lima show in Oct is still on??? I'm debating about entering the show (or trying to) in hopes of getting in this time... am reaching out to the super to see what's going on + get a premium from them if I can. (things are just so weird right now).
> 
> Kinda on subject a little... the judge on Sat (Judith Brown) gave Jovi a major reserve (4 point major) back in January. He moved his feet and gave her googoo eyes when I was trying to get him to stand still during the exam.  He did move beautifully - it's one thing I'm griping about this whole summer is that he found his groove for gaiting vs dragging me around.
> 
> ...


As of right now, Lima is happening. I got in when they rescheduled it the first time and kept my entry. I heard that a lot of people backed out when they rescheduled the second time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dang - looks like they reached limits for the show and it's closed. 

Really sad to go a whole year without showing.  There's a show about 1/2 hour west of me here in MI but because of our (omitting colorful descriptive word) governor, likely will not happen. Have been debating entering the show just to have our foot inside the door if by miracle it does happen.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Megora said:


> Do you know if the Lima show in Oct is still on??? I'm debating about entering the show (or trying to) in hopes of getting in this time... am reaching out to the super to see what's going on + get a premium from them if I can. (things are just so weird right now).
> 
> Kinda on subject a little... the judge on Sat (Judith Brown) gave Jovi a major reserve (4 point major) back in January. He moved his feet and gave her googoo eyes when I was trying to get him to stand still during the exam.  He did move beautifully - it's one thing I'm griping about this whole summer is that he found his groove for gaiting vs dragging me around.
> 
> ...


I honestly think the first show is gonna be quite hilarious for onlookers and quite traumatizing for me lol but it's to be expected. I think he'll stand well, but gaiting is something we struggle with at home, I just know he's going to be wild going around the first few times. I like to joke that he wants to gait like a GSD. I'm hoping when we go to Blue Rose, they can help me figure out his rhythm and the best way to present him.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

2 winters ago I had a friend bring home a new obedience, agility, hunt test prospect. My friend had never owned anything but obedience/hunt test/agility dogs. Anyway she bring home this pup and we had the opportunity to hang out. I convinced her to go to a show and go class because I thought her pup was cute. My friend thought that show and go would be good for future obedience trial competitions. I watched that 5 month old pup run around the ring, and knew she was a star. The owner had no idea at all what she had. I convinced her to get her ready to show. I also talked to her about using a pro, which she was ok with. I set her up with Lucy's pro (we do ring side hand offs here). My friend after much badgering entered her girl. She finished in no time with ring side hand offs. We have very few shows here in Alaska. Then the virus hit. We finally had a couple of show weekends in July. Pup is now 1.5 years old. She took Select in 5 out of 6 shows she was entered in. It was all in her attitude. She knew she was a big shot and she threw attitude like nobody's business. She isn't the prettiest girl, but she was all about look at me, and she new how to stand out. We have one more one day show in Alaska from August through March, I'm crossing my fingers that she takes BOB and finishes her GCh in November. Attitude is absolutely the thing that sets dogs apart. And the owner, well she still can't count points and had absolutely no idea what Select means, but her pro keeps her informed about being 3/4 of the way to GCh. All my friend thinks about is the next hunt test or agility trial.

I used to show Lucy. She hated the show ring. We did very poorly. She was bored and I was petrified to be in the show ring. Bad combination. Set her up with a pro (ring side hand off) and that's when she got points. I had a dream that I could finish my own dog. I was sadly mistaken. Some people show their own dogs well, and a lot do not. 

I'd suggest using a pro. It's way less stressful. When my Ruby was in the ring last month, I handed her off to the same pro. I was super happy to sit and watch.

Good luck in whatever you decide. Attitude is born and not made.


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## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

I relate to what you share, as when I handle my boy Monty for practice he looks terrible. When my friend tries to handle and stack him his entire demeanour changes and he looks presentable, so I've been suggested to use a handler for him. I've been told that he 'bullies' me if that makes sense hahah. I hope with more practice Monty & I can be a good owner handler team and at least not look silly, definitely a work in progress, all in good fun!


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

I worry my anxiety is going to pass onto Felix and I may need a handler just so he doesn't pick up on that. I've always preferred watching others ride my horses anyway rather than competing myself 😅 

I worry about a variety of things, but I guess only time will tell his attitude towards the ring and my ability to show him. In the end, hopefully by the time he starts showing, if I can't show him well, maybe I can afford a handler


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I totally get the anxiety. Lucy always got a hot spot or 3 in the days before a show. My husband always told me my anxiety went right down the leash to my dog, and that's why she got hot spots.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yep, especially the part where he describes how incorrect the temperament is of most Goldens in the show ring...saying they are not supposed to be on their toes, in your face dogs. They are the "good ol' boys" of the sporting dog world.
> I had the honor of showing to him at Tito's very first show. 150+ Goldens entered.
> Tito was basically ungroomed, and neither he nor I had a clue what we were doing. We were in a class of 12 or so dogs, and he gave Tito 4th. Told me I had a really fine dog.
> It was my first show (nothing like jumping in with both feet!). No idea what to do or expect. I literally didn't have a grooming table, didn't bring a blow dryer, nothing. Just combed him out at home then jumped in the car and drove. It was a benched show, and he chilled out on top of his crate since I had no table.
> ...


What a fun, wonderful memory to hold. I am so glad you shared it here, I don't think I've ever seen you mention it. That's the good stuff.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Can someone talk to me about backline? I know the standard says it should be a "level" backline to a lightly sloping croup. And then a sloping backline is to be faulted. But I think my idea of level and what is actually level is not correct.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

When you look at an illustration of a Golden broken into thirds, the middle third of the topline should be perfectly level - as in you should be able to set a glass of water on it and it won't lean or spill. This section of the topline should always be level, especially on the move. You should be able to picture that same glass of water on the back of the dog as they move and see it not spill. You can hand stack and/or groom a dog to hide some topline flaws, but they will usually out when the dog is on the move. If a dog looks slopey while stacked, but the topline is level while moving, it can (not necessarily always) be an indication that the dog was squatting in the stack.

If the topline slopes toward the rear for instance, that is an indication of a lack of balance: the front assembly is too straight, the rear assembly is over angulated, or both. If you have seen the illustration of the parallel triangles, both triangles should be right triangles, but it is possible for a balanced dog to have improper, but matching angles in front and rear and still have a level topline. If you see a topline that is "butt high" in an adult dog (many puppies go through a butt high stage around 5-7 months) it is also an indication of a lack of balance: the rear is too straight and the front is properly angulated. Then there are roachy toplines which are just yucky on a Golden. This has to do with the curvature of the spine if I'm not mistaken, but could be a symptom of another anatomical flaw. I have most often seen swaybacked toplines on dogs that are too long in the loin. You will often see swaybacked toplines on older dogs that are too long in the loin as their muscles deteriorate and can no longer properly support the spine. Hope this helps! and hope I'm not way off base, but this is my understanding of the causes of various topline faults.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

ArkansasGold said:


> When you look at an illustration of a Golden broken into thirds, the middle third of the topline should be perfectly level - as in you should be able to set a glass of water on it and it won't lean or spill. This section of the topline should always be level, especially on the move. You should be able to picture that same glass of water on the back of the dog as they move and see it not spill. You can hand stack and/or groom a dog to hide some topline flaws, but they will usually out when the dog is on the move. If a dog looks slopey while stacked, but the topline is level while moving, it can (not necessarily always) be an indication that the dog was squatting in the stack.
> 
> If the topline slopes toward the rear for instance, that is an indication of a lack of balance: the front assembly is too straight, the rear assembly is over angulated, or both. If you have seen the illustration of the parallel triangles, both triangles should be right triangles, but it is possible for a balanced dog to have improper, but matching angles in front and rear and still have a level topline. If you see a topline that is "butt high" in an adult dog (many puppies go through a butt high stage around 5-7 months) it is also an indication of a lack of balance: the rear is too straight and the front is properly angulated. Then there are roachy toplines which are just yucky on a Golden. This has to do with the curvature of the spine if I'm not mistaken, but could be a symptom of another anatomical flaw. I have most often seen swaybacked toplines on dogs that are too long in the loin. You will often see swaybacked toplines on older dogs that are too long in the loin as their muscles deteriorate and can no longer properly support the spine. Hope this helps! and hope I'm not way off base, but this is my understanding of the causes of various topline faults.


Yes it helps! So between the withers and the ilium? It would be level -> should not slope towards the ilium? I think there is either an illusion or I just didn't understand what exactly constituted the part in question because I kept seeing what I thought was a slope and then one I thought was level with considered rear high. The rear should fall below the withers or be level with the withers?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Can you show us what you're talking about?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

ArkansasGold said:


> Can you show us what you're talking about?


I'll PM you! I don't want to get in trouble for using anybody else's photos lol


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Does anyone have examples of incorrect coat quality? Is this something that you can see or is it something that you have to put hands on the dogs? The blue book mentions several kinds of incorrect coat qualities, but the drawings aren't super helpful for me outside of minorly. Anything from an "open" coat, to a coat that is too long and silky, etc.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This is kinda what I think of when I hear the term open coat.










And then correct coat. Think about the outer coat like a slicker or sweater fitting tightly over the undercoat. You don't want to see undercoat. This could be even a coat with flippies like Bertie's coat or really tight/smooth coat like Jovi's.

Texture of a correct coat - it's not what you would describe as silky or rough coated or wooly....










Other examples =

Silky -










Wooly/Cottony -










Excessive (too much) -

(also thinner but denser hairs)










Excessive (too little)

(also wiry feel)


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Yes thank you! When I was reading the book, it was Bertie and Jodi I thought of with correct coat. I think partly because you share so many photos of them in water and playing and running and it is very easy to see how their coat functions. I love seeing their pictures  

The open makes a lot more sense now! I think part of the reason I was confused about all of them is I don't have much reference. I think I'm going to ask to put my hand's on an Irish Setter next time I see one to just feel the actual silky coat. Some of those guys have crazy coat 🤯But it sounds like there is some variety in Golden coat types as long as they are all tight fitting over the undercoat and without excess. 

Are dogs with incorrect coat ever shown in the ring?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Are dogs with incorrect coat ever shown in the ring?


YES. 

Definitely have seen dogs with open coats - sometimes they are groomed that way.

Have seen excessive coats being shown - both ends of excessive.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The judge Pat Trotter has a witty way of explaining about flashy dogs. She says never put up a dog who is " good icing on a bad cake" . By that she means there are some dogs who look splashy flashy, but have incorrect or mediocre structure/ movement/ type. ( She calls them "foolers"). 

In the top dogs, like some of the ones pictured, you have a good icing on a good cake. 

Goldens are so competitive that a dog who fares well in top twenty competition is good enough to be shown to most, if not all, comers. While a judge might have a niche style of dog he especially promotes, big winning dogs have to be solid enough in movement, breed type, and structure ( whatever style they are) to get the nod from many judges of many philosophies on many days. Even if a judge has a style he/she prefers or opinions about grooming, in the end each special is subject to a long-term vote by consensus. By the time a golden retriever is a top twenty dog, the eyes of many, many longtime dog men and women with differing tastes and rationales have carefully assessed and chosen the dog from amidst good peers. You're not likely to find a merely generic or a merely flashy dog without merit going that far, whether or not you like or dont like the dog's style.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

This is excellent information, thank you!! I think I have been seeing and understanding that more and more. I've also come to admire how much work the handlers and breeding put into training and preparing their dogs for the ring. I have been trying to take in everything I can as fast as I can and it is slowly starting to come together. I have been watching the top winners, watching specialties from the years, and seeing how each judge determines what. And also how much handling can affect the image of the dog.

Our handling class handler was telling me (as I mentioned that I was thinking about entering a circuit in the next few months) that I should wait, because he's beautiful and his front is lovely, but he has to get broader and fill out before he is competitive. She said back when she first started showing, nobody showed puppies, you brought mature adult dogs. Nowadays, everybody is showing their puppy, but because of COVID, people had to wait however many months to take their puppies out so now it is wonderful adult dogs. She said it is back like it was when she first started showing.

I see all the top dogs and I see mature, good moving dogs, even if sometimes a certain judge prefers one thing over another.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

For me showing a pup or young dog is about giving him experience and time in the ring, so when he's ready to win.... you've got a dog who is completely ready to go, including mentally.

At class which I probably am going to tomorrow night.... there's people with 4-6 month old pups who normally would be showing quite a bit or coming along to shows. The dogs are missing out on socialization and getting used to the noises and stuff that's part of dog shows. 

For obedience... many people have gotten away from bringing dogs out to big noisy shows when they are puppies and even as adults, the dogs really can't handle it. So you've got more and more obedience competitors who won't enter noisy or crowded shows.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Megora said:


> For me showing a pup or young dog is about giving him experience and time in the ring, so when he's ready to win.... you've got a dog who is completely ready to go, including mentally.
> 
> At class which I probably am going to tomorrow night.... there's people with 4-6 month old pups who normally would be showing quite a bit or coming along to shows. The dogs are missing out on socialization and getting used to the noises and stuff that's part of dog shows.
> 
> For obedience... many people have gotten away from bringing dogs out to big noisy shows when they are puppies and even as adults, the dogs really can't handle it. So you've got more and more obedience competitors who won't enter noisy or crowded shows.


I am hoping to be able to enter him anyway, it would be good for him and I. I would consider Felix a more "on" dog than some of the other puppies. We were at handling class Monday night and there was a 6 mo lab puppy there (first time at class) who was calm, didn't even really want to move, was just all around lazy puppy and Felix's instructor refers to him as the "out of control Golden" lol.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Tagrenine said:


> I am hoping to be able to enter him anyway, it would be good for him and I. I would consider Felix a more "on" dog than some of the other puppies. We were at handling class Monday night and there was a 6 mo lab puppy there (first time at class) who was calm, didn't even really want to move, was just all around lazy puppy and Felix's instructor refers to him as the "out of control Golden" lol.


Don’t feel bad, a lot of show labs are total slugs. Eevee used to be a bat out of hell in class, and now she’s calm enough at shows that a friend of mine thinks she’s actually chill. LOL Which is not the case, I’ve just taught her to be chill at shows so that I can, you know, actually show her.


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