# September Field Training



## Claudia M

It is September already. We had a nice long weekend to train and go hiking. Well, sort of. Darcy found a big pile of poop on the hiking trail and decided to "camouflage" herself by rolling all over it. We did some nice long up to 200 yard retrieves on Saturday and Sunday. Today we came back and went to the regular training place where we did fliers. Rose had her first cripple. It was a memory bird on a double. She went where she marked it but the duck was already gone. She hunted it down and then the duck said NO WAY I am taking off into the woods. Rose said Mom wants you all the way over there so I will take you there. She chased it into the woods and about 2 to 3 minutes later (seemed like an Eternity to me) she came back duck in her mouth. Darcy had her first cripple also. Sweet Darcy tried to make the duck feel better and started licking it. I told her to fetch it and she licked it again. Then I took it and told her to fetch from my hand which she did and heeled all the way back with it. Dropped it once and picked it back on on Fetch command. Second flier no problem. 
Tried also a shackled chukar with Rose. The darn thing started pecking after a good run so Rose got behind her, picked her up by the butt and delivered it to hand.


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## hotel4dogs

It's back to retriever training for us now (although I *probably* will be convinced to go for the Master Hunter Upland Advanced title eventually, he did get 1 of the 5 required passing scores this past weekend. You need to get 5 passes where your scores average 8 or higher, after the MHU title). We have to do some remedial work on blinds, so we will probably go back to the drill yard briefly. Haven't done any drills in ages and ages. 
Supposed to be 90 and humid on Thursday when we head for Dan's, yuck. And he is probably going to be surprised when there is no upland hunting this week...poor guy...


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## hollyk

We did a water triple with an along the shore water blind.  
We then moved on to CKC style quartering with a sit to flush that we immediately followed with a land blind. Today I started the quartering with her facing me and gave her an outward sweep of my hand with "hunt'em up". I'm hoping by doing her send this way she will quickly know what we are doing and she is free to quarter. Right now it seems to take her a few seconds to really start working hard. It is almost like she can't believe she is free to quarter.


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## hotel4dogs

That made me grin, it's how Tito was at first, too. "Seriously??? Go out on my own and FIND.A.BIRD???" It's like they've won the lottery and can't believe their good fortune!
One (of many) things I learned from the Spaniel folks is that when you give the initial cast, you should start with your hand crossed over in front of your body and sweep it across your body and into the outward sweep. Think of it like pulling a rope across your body and then pointing it off to your side. The dogs know exactly what you want when you do it that way and will start off into a nice quartering pattern. 
As you walk with the dog, turn your body in the direction you want the dog to go, don't just keep facing straight ahead. You're almost doing a "mini quartering" yourself. 
(I am, of course, trying to get you ready to run the Spaniel tests when you finish your MH title  )




hollyk said:


> We did a water triple with an along the shore water blind.
> We than moved on the CKC style quartering with a sit to flush that we immediately followed with a land blind. Today I started the quartering with her facing me and gave her an outward sweep of my hand with "hunt'em up". I'm hoping by doing her send this way she will quickly know what we are doing and she is free to quarter. Right now it seems to take her a few seconds to really start working hard. It is almost like she can't believe she is free to quarter.


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## Alaska7133

Opening season today. Walking on the mud flats looking for ducks. Only saw one. Lucy had a great time retrieving bumpers in the deep reedy watery muck. True swamp collie. Those are the Kenai Mountains with a little sliver of the ocean in the distance. I think the ducks new we were looking for them!


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## boomers_dawn

We had our big group with flyers today. It should have been a wonderful day but it turned out to be the hottest day of the year. The humidity was disgusting. Everyone was late so me and DST set up everything, including like a 200 lb winger. I was ready for a cold shower and nap before we even started.

I thought Gladys was to do STFU singles or doubles, but DST said do the triple, but make it not be about remembering, make it be about quiet. First series, had to wait about a minute before sending; but she was able to do everything with only one quack reminder for the memory bird. Movement: For the flyer, she stood up on 2 feet, then second bird down, she had to turn to see past me and ended up one sit in front of me. I didn't correct because the angles were such that she had to move to see past my leg. I learned with Boomer training for WCX to line up facing the memory bird, but that set us up that she couldn't see the station through my leg. I dunno.

The second series she crept at least 2 feet, so I gave her a HEEL nick and she was quiet as a mouse after that. That was extremely interesting to me. I've been hesitant to apply any correction or pressure to the whining b/c I equate with adding anxiety, but after the correction for creeping, she was silent. Not sure what to make of it or how it all works. 

Dee Dee :bawling: All singles. Did all db stations ok, no help. On the first series she went to the flyer by way of the bird crates and throwers, then eventually figured it out; the throwers signalled she had it, but she wasn't coming in, so I whistled ... as in "pick it up NOW and get your *** in here" ... so she comes in! WITH NO BIRD.

I was sooo hot, cranky, drenched in sweat, red as a beet, looking like something out of a cartoon where the top pops off and steam comes out. DST goes "what did you do that for?" so I snapped "I thought she had it and meant "get in here .... WITH the bird!" I turned around and like 3 people were snickering so I snapped "Stop laughing at me" (giving them cause to make fun of me forever) then dragged Dee Dee by the collar to go pick up the bird. Ugh ugh ugh not pretty.

Some of our other group members had generously brought quail for the dogs having problems with pickups, she had no problems with that.

The second series, she again did the db stations no problem, then on the flyer, per usual MO, went up the side of the field instead of the middle where the flyer went, past the old station, stopped to look at stuff on the way by, the duck crate, the throwers, yadda yadda, but this time figured it out and brought the bird back without me needing to go out there. Victory, although I feel so incompetent this year.


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## Claudia M

AHHH Dawn, don't ever feel incompetent. You going out there and letting your dogs enjoy what they do is the most accomplishment ever. 
Did I want Darcy to pick up that cripple, YES. But she did not. She was so sweet about it. She licked the bird, I told her to fetch it up and she licked it again and sat by it, as if in saying, don't worry mom will come right up and fix you. She wasn't scared of it, her entire demeanor was just so sweet about it. 
She has so much drive and she is so happy out in that field that I simply cannot NOT enjoy our time out there. 
hahaha - last week we were honoring, and Darcy is like a dynamite, wants to go go go. The pro was next to me and said to Doug, we really need to teach Claudia how to use that e-collar. "But she doesn't need it yet!" I replied. 'Why did you buy it then?" he asks. "Because she looks good in blue." I replied. Well, this week she honored much much nicer. One little step and one little whine and she still looks good in blue. 

If there is one thing the girls have taught me is that each of them have their strengths and their weaknesses and I have to modify for each and allow each their time to learn how to use the strengths to overcome the weaknesses.

ETA - I was completely discouraged in May when Rose was not going in the water. It took me some time to realize that her incision has bubbled with undissolved stitches trying to come out which were hurting her every time she jumped in.


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## boomers_dawn

Thanks for commisserating with me Claudia. :
Yesterday was too hot and cranky, today is more in perspective.
Gladys and Dee Dee are good dogs, and you're right, they both LOVE retrieving. 

I used to love it too but I don't right now and that makes me feel sad.
Need to find the fun spot again.

Some thoughts I've had are cut 2 of my 4 clubs (too much volunteer work) say no to certain jobs I hate b/c too much like work, and learn to be one of those ppl whose butt is velcroed to their chair unless someone directly asks or tells them to do something .. annoying but having a better time than me ... so who is the dumb***?


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## Claudia M

yeah, those kind of people..... had one like that yesterday too. I was whistling Darcy to come back in. I don't always do it but I was thinking she may take a trip into the water instead of coming straight back to me. This woman behind me comes to me and almost in a commanding voice tells me how she barely heard my whistle and how I had to be stronger and not whistle from my lungs but with my mouth bla bla bla. I thanked her and replied that I was very lucky my dog has a better hearing than her. Plus in a hunting situation I would not be whistling all over the place for my dog. She insisted though. I figured it was her way of trying to be helpful. So I had to slowly explain that the left side of my face is paralyzed and my dogs just have to adjust to that and work with it. As she kept on insisting I faded away to my car and avoided her "solutions" for the rest of the day.


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## hollyk

Dawn and Cluadia your posts are great. It is good to remember how we got sucked into this craziness, the dogs love it. This summer I had a conversation with a very sucessful Flatcoat owner/trainer. Her advice was to measure your progress by your own yardstick and not by what a judge thinks on any given day. Maybe your dog didn't come up with the middle bird in the 3 series that day but it took every whistle on a tough water blind and only you can know how hard you have been working on those water blinds. She is an amazing thoughtful high level trainer who celebrates the joy in the dog and loves watching them work.


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## gdgli

I have been doing handling drills. I am pushing Buffy just a little and I am surprised at how well she is doing. We are doing some stuff that is described in TRAINING RETRIEVERS TO HANDLE. Having fun watching her learn.


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## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> I have been doing handling drills. I am pushing Buffy just a little and I am surprised at how well she is doing. We are doing some stuff that is described in TRAINING RETRIEVERS TO HANDLE. Having fun watching her learn.


Is that the Walters book? Can you elaborate on what you do? Is it different than the other handling techniques?


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## gdgli

Claudia M said:


> Is that the Walters book? Can you elaborate on what you do? Is it different than the other handling techniques?


It is the DL and Ann Walters book. This has some stuff in it that I have not seen before. Or maybe I have but I didn't get it.

I have been doing STEP 4 The Three Leg Pattern With Casts. Today one drill I did was the three Leg Pattern Including Ditch (over cast) but I used a treeline instead. Interestingly enough Buffy initially reached the treeline on an over cast and hunted the treeline for the bumper. Of course she would because when hunting that is where a crippled bird would be found. I had to help her a couple of times to carry through the cover and once she got it she ran with confidence. I then repeated with a left over rather than right over. She learned this much more quickly.


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## boomers_dawn

I have that book but I never think to use it! Should give it a look.
(ETA: I think the drill book I have is by Spencer)

Our training buddies prepping for masters did marks mixed with blinds tonight, and mine just did the marks. 

Gladys covered half a huge field looking for the first mark. I was like "***, is she blind?" but when she came back it all became so clear, our training buddy threw the black dokken for her that I had used to plant a blind for them. Some people use black bumpers, but not at dusk! So we can't blame Gladys for that, and she nailed the rest.

Dee Dee nailed all her marks, although she didn't take a straight line to all, one seemed like a bit of a miracle, but she went right to it, in a roundabout way.

After that I took them to obedience for drop in. We did attention and short heeling, figure 8, sits/downs then split. That was all their and my attention spans could handle! I doubt we'll train all weekend, our training buddies are testing and judging. Fine with me, we can do handling and lining drills ourselves.


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## Claudia M

Thank you! I recently saw that book on gundogsupply.com. I wasn't sure if it was a good book to get or not. From the description of the book I understand that it is more for advanced dogs.


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## Vhuynh2

How do you know how hard to push your dog?

When it comes to handling, I am afraid of pushing Molly too hard. I like to be 95% confident that if she doesn't know _exactly_ what to do, she can work it out without freaking out. Because of that, we are progressing REALLY slowly.

On Tuesday, there was a blind set up that I thought was way too tough for Molly. There was a lot of varying terrain and Molly loves to go where the hills take her. I was going to walk way out but my friend convinced me not to. I send her and she goes way left, up the hill instead of past it. Molly thinks the whistle sit means she's wrong and if I call her back, doubly wrong. She really can't handle being wrong. And, because of previous BAD popping issues, I am afraid of stopping her really early, so I was guilty of letting her take that line to the left for way too long. My friend tells me to call her back, and I do, but I am starting to worry. He tells me that he knows I am worried about momentum but the longer I let her take the line, the more she thinks she's going the right way. He tells me to line her up better and I try, but she still goes left. He tells me to call her back. At this point, Molly has been "wrong" twice in a row and I'm worried she will start freaking out on me. I'm convinced I have to shorten this blind and take the hill out of the equation but my friend suggests that I don't, even though he knows I am concerned about Molly breaking down. I am not sure how he convinced me to try this again without walking up. I send her a third time and stopped her before she got on the hill to the left. I gave her a right angled back and she surprises me with her momentum and takes a nice line. Would've been a better blind if she hadn't picked up a bumper that a previous dog had dropped on his way back from the blind. My friend basically said "I told you so" and that I was pretty much the only one who was worrying, not Molly. I do think that without the caution I had taken the last couple of months to boost her confidence, this blind would not have been so pretty. 

I am still not comfortable with pushing Molly too much, but maybe (hopefully) I don't need to baby her anymore.


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## gdgli

I think that you are right.


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## boomers_dawn

I also struggle with how much to push the dogs. Too much fail and correcting is counterproductive but if we don't push, they and we won't learn and grow together. I try to maintain some balance and think about every training session, "read" the dogs and try to determine if we need to back up, work on something before moving forward, or continue along.

I looked at my blind drill book today, it is by James B Spencer, "Retriever Training Drills for Blind Retrieves". I used to have the marking one, but I think I lent it to DST.

Spencer says his book is for amateurs and goes on to say retrievers have to learn more than hounds, pointers, and spaniels, because they have to learn blind retrieves which goes against natural behavior and is all learned! I never really thought of it that way, was encouraging, no wonder most of us feel like such bumblers LOL.

So he says in the book that dogs learn by repetition, just like us, hence the purpose of the drills. Obviously that's not how they learn everything, but the point is doing the drills helps learn the 3 parts of blinds.

He breaks blinds down into 3 parts that must be learned: lining, stopping, and casting. I flipped through some of the pics, most of it is stuff we learned / DST makes us do in class, etc. 

While I was rooting around the bookcase, I looked at a book called "Retriever Troubleshooting", by John and Amy Dahl. I looked at the section about noise and creeping, it was all lumped into the line manners section. I was pleased to see a lot of the advice was parallel to my beliefs that iron obedience and hard pressure may actually worsen the problems. They used a word "sublimation" and likened it to a tire pumped too full of air that will pop. They also advocated no reward for bad manners and upping the standard to the reward. That was good.

Today it is like 98% humidity, so we went in the front yard early and did our pattern blind. Dee Dee had the attention span of a gnat so I dummied hers down and moved closer to get her to do 6 of them. 

Gladys was awesome! Amazeballs! We did 5 pattern blinds, stopping in the middle twice, which she did perfect. She anticipated once, so I set another blind off to the side where she went to the pattern blind place, I had to stop her and cast her where I wanted and we did work together - with a chicken coming by and scratching in the yard loose in the background, right in her line of vision!!!!!!! 

It felt good, like we're working together again. I have had to use the collar a few times, but now that it's back on and she knows it's there, she is working with me again. Me happy.

I got a text from one of our training buddies that his dog broke on the flyer again for the second time in a row. I felt really bad for him, it's demoralizing to work so hard and never be able to get past go. He encourages me to keep going so I guess it's my turn to encourage him again.


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## Alaska7133

Vivian and Dawn, great posts!

GR News has some great field articles I'm just sitting down to read in the July-Aug issue. Does anyone know if there is a way to download one of the articles to post here so we can discuss?


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## FTGoldens

Vhuynh2 said:


> How do you know how hard to push your dog?


Great Question!
I believe that most amateur trainers don't push their dogs hard enough ... specifically including me. What I seem to learn with each dog, and then forget with the next one, is just how to recognize when I can move along quickly and when I need to slow down. Frankly, my biggest problem is not moving along quickly when I can. That's going to be my biggest impediment to having a 3 year old FC ... okay, well maybe not the biggest impediment, but one of them!

FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs

And you also have to know when to back up and re-teach....


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## Sir Copper

Well my boy Copper is down to his final week of with the trainer. He has been doing very well with his marks and just got done learning how to flush birds. He caught on very quick on flushing, his nose is unreal and the trainer said it's the best he has ever seen. He is also starting to run with his head up. There was a Junior hunt test on the grounds he has been training but I was to late to sign him up!! O well, there will be another one some day. He was going to go with them for the winter to get a MH but I missed him to much. I learned quite a bit down there so I will work with him this winter.


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## Vhuynh2

I'm having a really hard time deciding whether or not I should enter the WCX. What are some questions I should ask myself to figure out if I should enter? When I entered Junior, I knew at under normal circumstances, Molly should pass, and she did pass all her tests. I don't have the same certainty because now there are so many other factors. At this point I know she can do the work -- in training. She can do the land triple and water double with the memory bird in cover. She can honor (except for that freak occurrence last week). I don't have to say "here" or "heel" anymore to turn her. But there are so many other things to worry about. All of it has to do with me not knowing how she will react in a test environment. Will she turn with me at a test since that first bird will be so much more more exciting than in training? Will I be able to heel her to the line? Will she be steady? Can I take her off the line under control? How can I found out the answers to these questions?

Any advice? It is in 2 weeks.


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## tpd5

I just got back from our WCX. Did I know exactly what was going to happen? No but I knew he was capable of doing the work required. If it didn't work out than I know what I need to work on. Even though we did pass I still learned some things we need to work on. I would say if she can consistently do the same type of setup in training, enter her and give it a try.


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## hotel4dogs

Congratulations on the pass, Todd!


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## gdgli

Todd, your dog did very nice work, especially on the water. Congratulations!


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## Vhuynh2

Congratulations!!!


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## Claudia M

Congrats Tdp


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## Claudia M

Well, is there such a thing as a cursed place? This club is about two hours away from us. We started going there since November last year, it meets once a month and we have skipped several meeting since then; but every single time Rose has refused to work there. She is not even excited when we get there. I wonder if it was her first experience there? On her first mark, as soon as I send her a plane is flying low above us and fire and rescue squad sirens start blowing as soon as she takes off. I don't know. DH thinks it is because it is a long full day with a lot of time between runs. True, it is a 12 hour work day for 6 retrieves split in two series (three and three). The thing is that even in the first series she retrieves and she is ready to leave after each retrieve. The by the time we get to the second series she refuses to even go. 
I finally make her go and she brings the duck back. I said, well those are nasty ducks and in the water, so I asked for a bumper, she goes towards the bumper and then she just turns around RIGHT in front of it. She has NEVER done that before. 
I wonder if maybe a flier would make her more excited about this place. She has been on 4 different ponds since May this year, on land at the cabin, on different farm lands and she has never acted like this except at this club. I am at a complete loss. 
On the good side Darcy hit all her marks and she did absolutely wonderful.


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## Alaska7133

Cogratulations on the WCX!


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## boomers_dawn

We didn't do any REAL training yesterday, I had too much to do after work, but I read one of the articles in GR News before bed, the one about getting from Junior to Senior by Buck Shope. I tried to read it before but when I got to the part about standards my attn span expired.

So .. I liked his idea about line manners (works for noise too!) - he suggested if any noise, creeping, movement that's below the standard, pick up the object, don't take the dog offline as that increases excitement, and re-throw with DECREASING excitement (e.g. silent, less distance) until the dog is SUCESSFUL, and that it may take time but the dog would eventually get it.

I'm going to discuss w/ the training buds and try this next time. 

The article also went on describe a method of teaching triples that was kind of novel. You hear so many people debating about rehearsing and rethrows, but I would like to try it too. The only problem is (for me at least) it was complex with steps I would need to break down, understand, and digest. I would have to study it over time, draw pictures and make notes to "get it". 

That part of the article made me realize how disadvantaged our whole team is. My job is so technical and complex, I've become one of those people that just wants to be told what to do and doesn't care. I was about to be bummed about this, when I remembered another important part of the article he advocated in multiple places was that people need help and suggested finding a good "train the trainer" person.

So I know DST gets GR News, I'll ask him to read it and help me, he will probably understand it already without drawing himself a picture. So that was a great read!

Addendum: I forgot, I did try to do our pattern blind in the yard, but we have to stop because they both know where it is and try to run out the door to get it now.
Dee Dee ran out with no collar on and started to chase the chickens. Now she's getting mixed messages about birds, which is another reason to stop with the pattern blind in the yard. To her extreme credit, she sat on the whistle about 2 feet in front of the chicken, and came when called! I was furious but held it in because she did sit and come.

Gladys ran out without the collar while I was getting Dee Dee back in the house. I made her pick up the rest of the bumpers, but she was having a mind of her own without the collar which was duly noted by me. Worst. trainer. ever.


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## Alaska7133

Dawn, that was the article I was referring to in a previous post. GR News does seem to focus more these days on fieldwork, which is really nice.


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## hollyk

I do think I have greatly benefitted from a trainer who is really good at training people as well as dogs. Also I find it helpful that my training program has drills (that can be made easier or harder depending on the dog) that I do routinely which keeps me on track and for the most part out of trouble. Since my main training partner and I train with the same Pro we have the same voice in our heads and that works well too.

Last weekend we ran in 2 MH CKC tests. It was not pretty. Somehow (generous judges) she eeked out a pass on Saturday. Sunday was actually looking better until the last series, then is was an Epic fail on water. My solid marking dog marked nothing. The grounds were next to a very busy interstate. We have never trained or run there before. There was a lot of road noise and depending how the marks fell the moving traffic was in the backround. The water on Sunday was very close the the highway and it was in the backround for the marks. 
Luckily, we have been invited up in the spring to train with friends on these grounds before the next set of tests. Hopefully I can get her used to these conditions. 
While we were there Joanne from Zaniri got the news that her girl Juice finished 2nd in a Qual giving her a QAA standing. Pretty exciting stuff. 

So we wrap up the HT season with 2 AKC and 2 CKC Master passes.


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## boomers_dawn

We worked on blinds yesterday since the others went to Tuesday a.m. group which I couldn't go to b/c of work; there is no feeld klass this session but I got to ask DST (dog skool teecher) a couple questions, that was helpful.

I set up 3 cold blinds of varying difficulty for Gladys to see where we're at. She only gave me trouble on the longest most difficult one. I got a couple corrections in. I asked DST from a judging perspective if someone blows the whistle and the dog doesn't sit, then they yell sit, does he count that as 2 handles or ding trainability or more? He said if someone has to yell on the blind they are done, to nutshell his opinion, if the handler is yelling, it's telling him the dog doesn't know how to sit on the whistle or handle. Good to know.

I set Dee Dee up on 3 sight blinds, this won't help her marking or get ready for the test but we had to do something and the winger electronics weren't charged. She was very enthusiastic and cute and seemed to love it.

So the plan for the week is:
tonight - handling drills for Gladys, some drill and fun bumpers for Dee Dee
tomorrow - stopping drills for Gladys, some different drill and fun bumpers for Dee Dee
Friday - meet training buddy 2 for lite singles / walking singles with quiet for Gladys and lite singles / walkings singles / marking drills for Dee Dee and I'll help him with whatever he wants to work on.

The test will be what it will be and I will try to focus on fun w/ the girls.


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## boomers_dawn

Surprise! Our gang of 3 did water.
Dee Dee did good with her singles, but it was white bumpers.
Gladys did good with her singles but was noisy; she did not great on the blind but managed. She got some corrections for refusal. 
So tomorrow we do the stopping drill, Dee Dee can continue to learn her pattern blind.
When we meet training buddy #2 Friday I'm bringing lots of decoys and we'll do singles with everyone.


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## hotel4dogs

We are in remediation mode now from the Upland flushing tests. I was fully expecting it, and don't find it bothersome. 
Had a good training session today. Found out that he loses his focus at about 225 yards on a cold blind  . Turned around and looked at me like, "did I miss the whistle? Do I seriously keep going here??" Other than that, his land blinds have returned to pre-flushing test standards. Water still needs some serious work, but that's probably because it wasn't in as good of shape to begin with. 
So we went ALL THE WAY back to swim-by today. Of course we're moving through the sequence quickly, covered the first 3 weeks of it in today's session, but it's what he needs to get him back to where he was without destoying his confidence (or mine) in the meantime. The biggest thing that he seems to have lost is the angle exits on the blinds, he really wants to square the shore. Probably because I've been allowing it....


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## hotel4dogs

Since I'm commenting on having to fix some stuff because of the Spaniel (upland) tests, I decided I need to also say some of the benefits:

1. My dog learned amazing persistence on hunting marks. When a shot bird goes down in the Spaniel tests, you have to retrieve it pretty much no matter when it went. Some of the retrieves have been very tough, in heavy brambles, across ditches, in the woods, and so on. Now when a mark goes down, and he didn't mark it too well, and he has to put up a hunt for it, he will stay out there and hunt and hunt and hunt until he comes up with it. In the upland tests frequently you can't see the dog when he's hunting for the downed bird, so popping is a non-issue. He has learned to trust himself, stick with it, and he WILL find the bird.
2. By learning to work the entire field looking for live birds, my dog learned how to use the wind when searching for a downed bird. He will get himself downwind of where he thinks the bird went down and search back into the wind to find it. 
3. His attitude in the field is amazing now, the upland stuff has really developed a ton of confidence in him. And of course the sheer joy of upland hunting!
4. This one is kind of hard to wrap my head around, but the retriever blinds actually seem easier to him now that he's done the "hunt dead". It's easier for him to just sit and be told exactly where the bird is rather than go out to "about" where it is and have to hunt it up. 
5. He's really in hard working condition now. Upland hunting requires a whole different level of conditioning than running marks does.
I'm sure there are more, but these come to mind immediately.


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## boomers_dawn

We did our drills today. I combined stopping and handling for Gladys, set up 5 piles, then sent to the center and casted to the 5. She tried to just do what she wanted on the first one. I corrected her then she did every single thing perfect after that. Her lining wasn't perfect, b/c she couldn't see the straight back pile as good as some of the others (on purpose) but she stopped every time and took every single cast I gave her! 

That tells me she knows the material and when she doesn't take a cast it's because she's doing what she wants, not what I said. I told her she was a good girl a million times and she's a happy camper.

Dee Dee I set a pile out near a big white rock and put decoys around it. I sent her back to it at increasing distances getting back almost to the hedgerow where we would run out of space. That was pretty good for Dee Dee! She didn't screw around and did a great job!

I don't know who these dogs are, but I hope they come with me to the test this weekend. I volunteered to plant the blind, work the winger/popper, put the live bird in the basket, food prep, clean the porta potty with my toothbrush .. .but was asked to marshall again. :--sad::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling:


----------



## boomers_dawn

Well I stopped crying long enough to train with TB#2 today.

He set up a big master triple hip pocket thing he was hell bent on doing. I told him the sun was directly in our eyes, as it would be in the dogs' eyes when marking. He said it wasn't bad and wanted to run from where we were and set it up how he wanted it. So I just moved my own line to make it work for us, we did singles anyway.

I moved up with Dee Dee to between 50-100 yds short to long and salted the area on the 2 harder marks, per DST's previous instructions. We put a mark into a strip of cover and Dee Dee took the cover and stayed in there!! and came out with the bumper (Rocky music) !!!!! 

Gladys did the usual .. if re-heeled, whines, yips, moves her head, looks around, ends up way offline and on the wrong side of the bird/all over the field. She wouldn't handle on the last bird so I called her in, re-beeped the winger, re-sent, then she remembered.

We repeated the long mark for Gladys and she did better the last time, and did everything I asked perfectly on the blind we planted.

I was thinking about tomorrow. If Gladys creeps and I re-heel her, will be a nightmare. I want to play all day with her and don't want to be out on the first series, especially since I will have to stay and work my arse off all day. The workers assignment has holes in it and I expect to work all day with no break. I don't want to do this with my dogs sitting in the car all day. 

So I will probaby lower my standard tomorrow, allow one "Gladys length" of creepage, and hope to keep the girls running. Next project - stop by the sticky to brush up on some of the NAHRA rules. TB#2 said you can talk to the dog the whole time during a NAHRA test; I don't remember that, and probably don't want to lower my standards that much or get into that habit ... but will take a look anyway.

Addendum: You can talk to your dog.. moderate voice commands to steady at line are allowed. I guess saying "sit" is an option. DST would NOT approve!


----------



## boomers_dawn

We had a long but fun day at the NAHRA test. 

Dee Dee nailed all her marks. Her deliveries could use some work, but she did a good job.

Gladys was amazing. She did creep on her water double, but it was due to standing up on 2 feet to see a mark then landing feet forward and sitting up. I did re-heel her to which she hopped backwards without taking her eyes off her mark until her butt made contact with my leg. I could hear laughing all around us, she is quite a character. We lucked out, her water double ended up 2 white bellies up, but ol' elephant memory is pretty good at doubles anyway. She gave me a couple refusals on the blinds, but slowed down, watched me, and did what I said. It was my first time doing the quartering test, I had a hard time keeping her with me, she hopped the stone fence through the hedgerow to the bird crates, the only birds on the property  I had to yell to get her back to me. But it was ok enough for the judges.

Having 6 series was good for Gladys, she was actually tired and took a nap in her crate. That never happens!


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## K9-Design

Sounds like a fun test! We don't have NAHRA down here, I've never seen one.

We are back in the groove of field training. Trained at Betsy's on Friday; water triple, then I did a few blinds on my own after the others had left, and Bally's pile work. 
Today Kristin & I trained at Lazy J, LOTS OF COVER -- wow. They need more cows, they don't even put a dent in it. Anyways we set up 4 blinds and 3 marks (land -- still gators in the ponds there). It was hot but we split them up and didn't run everything at once. Slater did a pretty super job, I was real happy with him. Bally was steady on all his marks, so yay. Tomorrow we're going back to Betsy's in the morning.


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## hollyk

boomers_dawn said:


> We had a long but fun day at the NAHRA test.
> 
> Dee Dee nailed all her marks. Her deliveries could use some work, but she did a good job.
> 
> Gladys was amazing. She did creep on her water double, but it was due to standing up on 2 feet to see a mark then landing feet forward and sitting up. I did re-heel her to which she hopped backwards without taking her eyes off her mark until her butt made contact with my leg. I could hear laughing all around us, she is quite a character. We lucked out, her water double ended up 2 white bellies up, but ol' elephant memory is pretty good at doubles anyway. She gave me a couple refusals on the blinds, but slowed down, watched me, and did what I said. It was my first time doing the quartering test, I had a hard time keeping her with me, she hopped the stone fence through the hedgerow to the bird crates, the only birds on the property  I had to yell to get her back to me. But it was ok enough for the judges.
> 
> Having 6 series was good for Gladys, she was actually tired and took a nap in her crate. That never happens!


Congrats all around.


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## Alaska7133

I had to work all weekend and long hours last week, so we stuck to "watch" exercises and line manners. Working on getting Lucy to turn with me. She thinks she's got it all figured out now, so she's stopped turning when I ask her. I did some walk out blinds and pile work with Reilly. He'll do anything quite happily. Since he's never been force fetched I need to work a bit with him on Hold. I wish all field dogs had his happy go lucky attitude, but his blindness is progressing sad to say. Lucy is still as serious as a heart attack. There is no perfect dog. I've been working hard at shooting clay pigeons. Our local shooting range has a 5 station clay pigeon wingers. So I've been sneaking out of work for 1/2 hour occasionally to shoot. It's only 10 minutes from the office. I'm determined to be a better shot. My DH is so good, he prefers to shoot birds with a rifle! I'll never be that good!


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## hollyk

I went out to the last HRC practice of the year on Sunday. It was a beautiful day. They had one set up since this last practice usually has a small number of people attend. It was fun 4 marks and three blinds and you pick what you wanted to do when you came to the line. Lots of visiting and hunting talk in the gallery. 
I'm hoping to work out something out to Upland hunt over Winter this fall. I have been cleared by my Pro to do as long when I blow the whistle I needed to back it up immediately if she gets self employed, apparently Upland = doggy crack.


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## hotel4dogs

oh yeahhhhhhhh....



hollyk said:


> Upland = doggy crack.


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## tpd5

Not really training but I had the 11 year old we just rescued while I was planting blinds today and she showed some interest in the bumper so I gave it a toss. She loved it, so she got a few more fun bumpers.


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## Vhuynh2

Yesterday, Molly popped on a really short blind. She hadn't popped in months. I think there was just too much going on with the decoys and running past a winger that was in plain sight and she was just unsure. It made me realize that all of our blinds have been (visually) in the middle of nowhere and the only suctions and distractions had been old falls, not decoys or wingers. 

Today, I went to the test grounds for this weekend's WCX. I had heard the pond was really bad so I wanted to throw some fun bumpers for Molly just to get her exposed. Lots and lots of milfoil but not as bad as it looks. Going out there was definitely more for me than Molly.

I am puppy sitting right now and started trying to teach her to "take it" with a clicker. Puppy has zero attention span and only wants to check out where I've put the treats.


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## gdgli

boomers_dawn said:


> We had a long but fun day at the NAHRA test.
> 
> Dee Dee nailed all her marks. Her deliveries could use some work, but she did a good job.
> 
> Gladys was amazing. She did creep on her water double, but it was due to standing up on 2 feet to see a mark then landing feet forward and sitting up. I did re-heel her to which she hopped backwards without taking her eyes off her mark until her butt made contact with my leg. I could hear laughing all around us, she is quite a character. We lucked out, her water double ended up 2 white bellies up, but ol' elephant memory is pretty good at doubles anyway. She gave me a couple refusals on the blinds, but slowed down, watched me, and did what I said. It was my first time doing the quartering test, I had a hard time keeping her with me, she hopped the stone fence through the hedgerow to the bird crates, the only birds on the property  I had to yell to get her back to me. But it was ok enough for the judges.
> 
> Having 6 series was good for Gladys, she was actually tired and took a nap in her crate. That never happens!


Congratulations! Nice to have a fun day. I hope to do a NAHRA event sometime.


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## boomers_dawn

Next year I'll try to remember to post upcoming NAHRA events in our area when they open.

We went training last night. We did some singles and Gladys did a blind.
Dee Dee did good with the close singles, but the long ones she just fell off the hill and ran all over the field like a golden squirrel. Even with repeating! oh well. At least she perservered and stayed out until she found something so I guess that's progress!

Gladys did good with her singles, crept once and got zapped; we had some trouble with the end of the blind. She wouldn't go back into the tree it was in front of, I don't know why, so we ended up with the back and forth back and forth to the last few feet and she started to break down. We have to revisit the drill to come in and pick up.

Always something new and old to work on!


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## Alaska7133

Met up with a friend last night for some live birds. My friend was convinced that Lucy needed some more time with live pigeons. She taped the wings and we did retrieves of about 100 yards or so. 5 retrieves total in very heavy cover. Lucy was great. Then I ran my friend's dog while she threw pigeons for her boy. Her boy is a Firemark bred crazy boy. He's not even a year old. Great line manners already. Very nice to run a dog you aren't very familiar with. He was a little confused about not running back to his owner who threw the bird for him. But he responded to whistles just fine.

Poor Lucy had to watch the pigeons go home with someone else. She loves pigeons more than anything in the world!


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## K9-Design

Trained at Betsy's today - you get a diagram! And an aerial! Go photoshop!
Water double and two blinds


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## Loisiana

This picture shall be titled "First Duck." 

That duck was last placed in my freezer in June 2010.


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## EvanG

K9-Design said:


> Trained at Betsy's today - you get a diagram! And an aerial! Go photoshop!
> Water double and two blinds


Nice water!

EvanG


----------



## Vhuynh2

No WCX title for us today. Now I've got my first fail out of the way. 

Going into the test, I felt very confident on land. She had been nailing all of her triples in training for the last several weeks. I was a little worried about the memory bird in cover for the water double, especially with the longer swim. Of course, her steadiness was also being tested. I decided to enter (I had to be there to do the lunches anyway). 

Land was first -- watching the dogs before us, I was worried about the left bird. Seemed like several dogs were having trouble with it. It seemed like Molly didn't want anything to do with the event today. I had to beg her to get out of her crate and when I aired her she did not care for the shots at all. Then, we got the line and she realized, "oh! It's a test!" I had seen someone pat their leg while the birds were going down so when I was in the last holding blind I asked the judges if that was allowed. While we were talking, Molly was audibly choking herself from pulling on the leash. I thought, "great, what an awful first impression". I was scared to take the leash off, but her heeling to the line was acceptable (I think).. although it was a bit of a struggle and not pretty. We get to the line and as I am turning to the middle station, (order of birds was left to right) I instinctively pat my leg!! Crap! She didn't turn for the last bird but saw it just fine. And she was steady!! She nailed the outside marks. Meanwhile, I'm hyperventilating and my arms are going numb and tingly. I lined her up for the middle bird and she looked right (where the live flyer station was). I try again and she's looking out so I send her. She goes out most of the way and decides to to go towards the right. At one point she paused and thought about turning back but decided to keep going to the live flyer station. When she got too close for comfort, I blew a sit whistle and asked for help from the middle station. And that was it. I don't believe she didn't know there was a third bird out there. It isn't consistent with what I have seen in training. I am thinking the live flyer station was too much of a suction, but who knows. 

I am most bummed about not being able to do the water honor. I really wanted to see how she would've done. There's always next year.

I wanted to add that regardless of failing, I am very proud of the progress we had made the past two months.


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## boomers_dawn

Aaaww the first fail is a let down, but I loved your descriptions  
I get that nervous too. Sometimes I feel like I'm having an out of body experience.


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## gdgli

V

You just got information on what to work on. That's a plus.


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## boomers_dawn

We went training today. We had 3 marks set up; 2 concepts were hard, one was long into a strip of cover that was cut at a slant so the dogs wanted to follow the slant and ended up on the other side; one was on a second rolling hill, both mine were hunting on the first hill like they were certain the bumper was there.

So we did all singles first and "salted" the area for Dee Dee by putting extra bumpers in the area of the fall to improve chances of finding something. 

Gladys didn't take a straight line to the cover patch but found it readily; she had a very long but decently tight hunt on the rolling hills.

Dee Dee nailed all her singles with the extra bumpers in area.

Next, we put 3 marks together for a triple for Gladys and did the same singles with no salting for Dee Dee. 

Gladys did some barking and yipping and I had to wait for quiet, but she did the triple! Then she did a blind with one correction then perfection. One of our training buddies said "She's baaack!" 

Dee Dee did pretty good on everything then got lost in the rolling hills and covered an unbelievable amount of field running around like a squirrel. She ended up past some of the other marks, so ... despite all our problems with her coming in with nothing, I eventually called her in, we did a silent re-throw and she STILL couldn't find it.

But the good news was SHE STAYED OUT THERE LOOKING FOREVER. 
So I thought they showed some progress today.


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## gdgli

We trained today at Pinelands RC in NJ. It was a gray day but we had a good
time. Buffy did well. 

And I got to meet TrailDogs and watch her dog work, a terrific dog I might add. That and our nice chat made this a very enjoyable day.

I had such a nice day that I treated myself to a Baconator at Wendy's, I figured I deserved it.


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## K9-Design

Yesterday we had a breed show in Deland then drove a few minutes over to the east coast to train with Jim (marshmop) at the pond. This pond is absolutely gorgeous, and full of big lily pads which is not something my dogs see very much. In fact halfway out on his first mark, I realized that Bally may have never seen them before! At least that I could remember. Anyways he didn't care one iota. I was really happy with Bally's marks, he was steady, went straight and plowed over the lily pads 
Slater we just did one mark (fine) and several blinds, and boy do I have homework to do. I would NOT take a good initial line, and kept going really fat in the water. I'm not sure what this is all about, he was very concerned with staying wet, and honestly I can't remember the last time he got in trouble for cheating to make him so concerned. Lots of lining drills in our future!


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## hollyk

Saturday I was a judge for my club's WC/X. It was a fun and interesting experience. We had 32 dogs in total. In the WC 9 of 14 passed and in the X 10 of 18 passed. My judging partner, who invited me to judge with her, is an experience 3 point judge and was able to carry me since I have never judged before. I read the rules many times before the day of the event and think I had a pretty good grasp of them. But it was pretty simple the dogs either did the work or put themselves out. We had very little to discuss as judges.


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## hotel4dogs

As they said at one of the Spaniel tests...most of the timejudges don't fail dogs, dogs fail themselves.


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## TrailDogs

gdgli said:


> We trained today at Pinelands RC in NJ. It was a gray day but we had a good
> time. Buffy did well.
> 
> And I got to meet TrailDogs and watch her dog work, a terrific dog I might add. That and our nice chat made this a very enjoyable day.
> 
> I had such a nice day that I treated myself to a Baconator at Wendy's, I figured I deserved it.


It was a nice training day and very nice to meet you and Buffy. She is a beautiful, talented girl. 
I think Buffy deserved a Baconator too - I hope you shared!


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## Alaska7133

Flew down to Sacramento over the weekend. We didn't pass one junior test this summer and since our season was over I decided to use up some frequent flyer miles. We got to Sacramento at 4 pm on Friday and drove down to Fairfield and Suisun City for the test the next morning. We got to the hotel about 6:30 pm. Their tests start at the awful time of 8:30 am, which is way earlier than our tests, which start at 10 am. So Lucy got a little sleep and we headed out in the morning. She failed the first day on water. The first water mark was land, water, land, which she has done many times before. She acted though like she had never seen water before. They had to help her to get the bird. I think she was very tired. I chalked it up to flying all day the day before, turbulent flights, and just plain all new stuff.

Next morning, no problem on land. Water was angle entry both sides, land-water-land again. Then off in the field beyond the water. The line was 75' from the water edge, we haven't practiced that much, normally we run from the water edge. Lucy ran perfectly, no cheating, no bank running, pinned her first bird. Short hunt on second bird. She did the whole thing very slowly, but it was because she was thinking and planning. Judges were very happy and said she ran it just like they set it up.

In conversation with many people at the test, they all think their tests are the hardest. I had to laugh about that. I think everyone thinks theirs are the hardest and they have the hardest judges. Oh and the general consensus was, that all you people back east, have the easiest tests of all! Of course nobody I talked to had ever run a test back east. I can say the test was different. The winds were very strong at 25 mph and gusting to 40 mph, I'm not used to that. The dust was just clouds rolling across the area. The weather was hot 90 on Saturday, 82 on Sunday (the hottest Lucy has ever been). The water was very warm (a first for Lucy). The vegetation was completely different than I've ever seen (or Lucy). The birds were ducks. I actually heard someone complain that the ducks were too big! So my lesson for the weekend was, everywhere tests are different for so many reasons than just the judging.

Below are some photos from the weekend.

Sagehens Retriever Club did a wonderful job of putting on a nice test. Everyone was very organized and kept things running smoothly.


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## Vhuynh2

Congratulations on the title!! Flying elsewhere to finish up a title -- that's dedication! I also did not see any fox tails in those pics. Is that really California? 

Molly isn't a good traveler. She just can't settle in motels or other people's houses. She gets anxious and antsy. I have traveled for a double header hunt test but I probably would not travel for something like an obedience trial. She would be too mentally drained to do well.


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## gdgli

Alaska

Easiest tests back east? My reply, based on photos, is "You call that cover?". That's what you tell them.


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## gdgli

Had a great training day with one of my groups. We were able to do both land and water. Multiple marks on land and honoring on land and water. And some handling drills. And it was beautiful weather.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

ha ha, George, that's what I was thinking!!! The cover here comes up past my knees and the dogs have to hop to get through it (I'm 5.10 by the way, ha ha.) 
I was thinking how flat that area looked and how dry it looked. But it was neat to see the different areas of the US and their test grounds so thanks for posting!
Congratulations on the title! Now on to Senior!


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## gdgli

Congratulations on the title!


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## hotel4dogs

Congratulations on the title Stacey!
And the first thing I thought when I saw the photos was....."where's the COVER???"
Look carefully in the center of the photo.


----------



## TrailDogs

Alaska7133 said:


> In conversation with many people at the test, they all think their tests are the hardest. I had to laugh about that. I think everyone thinks theirs are the hardest and they have the hardest judges. Oh and the general consensus was, that all you people back east, have the easiest tests of all! Of course nobody I talked to had ever run a test back east.


Congratulations! That is funny about the east coast tests. I ran one last year with a man from the south who was told NOT to come to the northeast because of all the technical water!
It probably would be interesting to see and run tests in other areas of the country but I have a self imposed 3 hour drive limit.


----------



## Vhuynh2

hotel4dogs said:


> Congratulations on the title Stacey!
> 
> And the first thing I thought when I saw the photos was....."where's the COVER???"
> 
> Look carefully in the center of the photo.



Took me awhile to see Tito! 

That's the kind of cover Molly loves to play fetch in. We don't have that at the training grounds, but even before we started field work, I would throw her balls in grass high enough that I can't see her. She just has a blast and has more fun than retrieving on short grass. I love to watch her bounce like a gazelle, too!


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## Alaska7133

Barb,
That's a perfect photo of Tito! There was cover down there. It was really uneven ground with uneven depth of cover. I could not see the duck on the ground when it landed. The winds were very high the whole time so the scent got thrown very far away. A lot of dogs got confused and failed for that reason. The marshes there are all salt marshes even that far inland. The salt water has intruded that far inland due to the drought. 

Vivian,
I'm sure you would see lots of different landscape if you went to eastern Washington. I think Holly has said she's run tests on that side of the Cascades. Sagebrush and dry washes. So very different from western WA!

Flying with a dog is different. It's a 4 day drive from Anchorage to Seattle. So I'm not interested in doing that if you could imagine. It's a 3-1/2 hr flight to Seattle, then a 1-1/2 hr flight to Sacramento. Next month Lucy and I will be flying into Atlanta with several other Alaskans going to US golden national. I have lots of frequent flyer miles, so I'll be going there for free again. Dog costs $100 each way on Alaska Airlines.


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## Alaska7133

There is one more thing I'd like to mention about running tests in Alaska. We run 2 master tests in a weekend. We can because we have less than 15 dogs in a test. Sometimes as few as 8 dogs. So up here our tests start at 10 am and you could be done with a master run by 2 pm. Since we are so small everyone has to switch around running gunner stations and such, but we make it work. So if anyone is interested in running master, I think we have a great place to do it and you knock out 2 tests in a weekend. Then usually the following 2 weekends are field trials at the same place. June is Fairbanks, July is Turnagain Pass, August is Point MacKenzie. Yes we have cover!


----------



## Vhuynh2

Alaska7133 said:


> Barb,
> That's a perfect photo of Tito! There was cover down there. It was really uneven ground with uneven depth of cover. I could not see the duck on the ground when it landed. The winds were very high the whole time so the scent got thrown very far away. A lot of dogs got confused and failed for that reason. The marshes there are all salt marshes even that far inland. The salt water has intruded that far inland due to the drought.
> 
> Vivian,
> I'm sure you would see lots of different landscape if you went to eastern Washington. I think Holly has said she's run tests on that side of the Cascades. Sagebrush and dry washes. So very different from western WA!
> 
> Flying with a dog is different. It's a 4 day drive from Anchorage to Seattle. So I'm not interested in doing that if you could imagine. It's a 3-1/2 hr flight to Seattle, then a 1-1/2 hr flight to Sacramento. Next month Lucy and I will be flying into Atlanta with several other Alaskans going to US golden national. I have lots of frequent flyer miles, so I'll be going there for free again. Dog costs $100 each way on Alaska Airlines.



Like traildogs, I also have a 3 hour drive limit. : If it weren't for it being a double header in Portland, I probably would not have gone. I doubt I will ever run any tests in Eastern WA, especially with that heat. However, I may make an exception for the Western Regional Specialty. The weather in Spokane should be OK in May. Will you be going there as well?


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## Alaska7133

My DH and I have lots of family in WA, OR and ID. We head that way often. So maybe I can make it down there. It would be fun!


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## hotel4dogs

The dogs do seem to love heavy cover. It freaks the handlers out much more than the dogs!


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## hollyk

Stacey, 
Congratulations, Alaska to California you are dedicated!

Your pics prove it, the hardest tests are in the PNW! ? ??


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## boomers_dawn

Congratulations Stacey! Alaska does sound like an extemely attractive place to run Master! When I win lotto I'm going to plan a cruise to the HT every year  
Or maybe some day when I retire ... add to the bucket list.

That was interesting perspective how everyone thinks their test is the hardest. 

Sometimes looking at a landscape can be deceiving though. 

I've learned you have to actually get out of the car and wade into a field when deciding where to train because sometimes you look out and see flat, but when you get into it, the grass can be knee high and bent over.


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## hotel4dogs

I have to admit that it's kind of funny that everyone thinks their area is the hardest, because clearly the Midwest is.


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## K9-Design

No way, it's the south! Our good old boys set up some whoppers!!!

Stacey I loved your report on your trip "south" -- congrats on the JH pass!!! It is so fun to go out of your area and run tests. The new terrain, new people, all great experiences.


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## hollyk

So I have been working on a couple of things. 
The first one I'm sure has been caused by me casting her way too fast on blinds in tests. I'm now dealing with autocasting if I don't cast her within about 3 seconds of the whistle. Miss Winter is now is having to sit on the whistle quite awhile before she gets a cast. She is doing better but will still try to autocast if I sit her close to the end of the blind. 
The second thing I'm working on is getting Winter to look out past the close marks and see the long marks. She will get caught up on the close holding blinds and will not recongize that there is a longer gun in the field until it goes up giving her less time to mark it. I'm working on this by running singles off of mulitple guns. I think I'm going to just throw marks from the long guns for the next couple of weeks and see if I can get her looking long as we come to the line. Today we had three holding blinds fanned out long with two holding blinds shorter. A training partner was behind the long holding blind on the single I was going to run. As we were coming to the line and sitting at it I could tell that she was seeing the short stations but not looking long. I tried to talk her into seeing long but I finally had the gunner step out and she locked in. After Winter picked up that mark, we came off the line so the gunner could move to the next long station. This time she looked at the short gun and then past it to the long gun as I was asking her "Where is your mark" and I did tell her "Good" when she noticed it. We did the same thing for the third mark but she pretty much just looked long right away. So I think I'm off to a good start. I will do this for a few training sessions and if it goes well, then start mixing in marks from the short guns. When I do I will be sure to throw the long marks first to start with and try to keep her looking for the long guns. Anyone have any suggestions or tips on this? 
Other than that we are just trying to get in as much water as possible before the weather changes.
Now that I think of it, I'm sure both problems were caused by me.


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## FTGoldens

hollyk,
You are doing all the right things, just keep it up. The roving gunner which you did today is explained in Carol Cassidy's book on drills ... I believe that she calls it the "Where's Waldo" drill or something like that. 
Carol's book is full of good drills and I recommend it [this is NOT a paid endorsement  ]. She does a very good job of explaining the drills, often in a couple of different ways.
FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs

We had a successful day yesterday. Dan is out of town (HRC Grand), so I worked with his very talented and wonderful assistant. 
I think I mentioned, we went all the way back to swim by and de-cheating with Tito, since he's not doing Master level work on water blinds for a variety of reasons. Of course, since it's not totally new to him, we're moving very quickly. The swim by is pretty much "done" (although of course could be revisited at any time) as he is once again taking great directions in the water, even with the bumper already in his mouth. So that's good.
The de-cheating is moving along fine, but we still have some work to do on it. The de-cheating pond is an interesting set-up. It's actually 2 ponds in sequence. The first one is about 40 feet long, about 15 feet wide. Then there's a shore/grass area that's about 15 feet long, then the second de-cheating pond, which is about 80-100 feet long and also 15 feet wide. 
Doing marks down the second (longer) pond is no problem. Doing blinds down the second pond is also no problem.
The interesting part comes when you run them from about 15 feet behind the first (shorter) pond. The bumper is at the far end of the second pond, so the dog is expected to cross about 15 feet of land (mowed grass), swim about 40 feet, get out into some weeds, cross another 15 feet of land (mowed grass), swim about 80 feet, get out (moderate cover), get the bumper, and return the same way. Now this sounds easy, but with channels that are only 15 feet wide, it's somewhat tough.
Tito does okay with it if he gets out in the middle of the far end of the first pond. But if he gets out at either side of it, which he tends to do, then he wants to go around the second pond. Especially if the mark, when we are doing marks, falls to one side of the far pond rather than right smack in the middle. The mark is thrown on land, not in the water.
So it's a very challenging set-up, and I'm quite pleased with his progress so far. It's just not something you master in one day.
The best for him is the water marks, for which we've been using live ducks. We're working on tighter and tighter angle entries/exits on the marks, which are including crossing at least one point of land. So again, progress after the laxity of the Spaniel tests. 
Funny yesterday, we threw a mark on the technical pond that involved him having to cross 4 points of land (straight entries/exits). The duck had shaken it's shackles and swam off across this large pond, was a good 100 yards away by the time Tito crossed the 4th point of land. Since he didn't see the bird, he *assumed* he had another point or two of land to cross, and just kept going across another land point. Even though Johnny threw another bird, he ignored the splash and kept going with some rather amazing focus! It was interesting to follow his thought process, just keep crossing points of land until you get to the bird. The points of land are pretty close together, btw.

edit...LOL, I paced off the distances I originally gave and I was WAY off. The ponds are much longer than I originally said. I'm probably still under on my estimates. The only one I'm sure is close to right is the width of the pond is about 15 feet, because Tito can just about jump over it.


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## hotel4dogs

Also not a paid endorsement....BEST book ever!!! Highly recommend it for anyone training at any level!
edit to add...one of the best things about the book is that she addresses what to do when things don't go right. Usually the books just tell you what to do, and if the dog doesn't do it exactly right (imagine that!) you're on your own as to how to fix it.



FTGoldens said:


> hollyk,
> You are doing all the right things, just keep it up. The roving gunner which you did today is explained in Carol Cassidy's book on drills ... I believe that she calls it the "Where's Waldo" drill or something like that.
> Carol's book is full of good drills and I recommend it [this is NOT a paid endorsement  ]. She does a very good job of explaining the drills, often in a couple of different ways.
> FTGoldens


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## hollyk

Ok, going to go find my Carol Cassidy book.


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## K9-Design

water blinds yesterday @ Betsy's pond -- ran in order 1, 2, 3


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## hotel4dogs

VERY nice pond!


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## MillionsofPeaches

Okay Anney, I think you are a great trainer and I like reading all about your training days. Nice, photo of the pond. How long were the blinds? Do your dogs just run them straight? How many times do you have to handle them? if so where? 
TIA for answering my questions.


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## Alaska7133

This weekend while traveling I watched Denis Voigt's DVD on training alone. Very interesting ideas for working with your dog when you don't have a lot of time or a group to meet up with. Anyone use his concepts?

Anney,
Nice blinds! Have you thought about running them as marks too?


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## K9-Design

We certainly could run them as marks.
Note the particular order. This is something that Mitch White recommended and I hope I am understanding it correctly. With a master level dog you challenge them with less water (cheaty) first, gradually going to more water to emphasize take water as your lesson goes on. With a beginner/senior level dog you would do it in the opposite order : more water first to encourage take more water thru attrition. Hope I am getting it right...
We had all master dogs so ran it 1-2-3


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## K9-Design

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Okay Anney, I think you are a great trainer and I like reading all about your training days. Nice, photo of the pond. How long were the blinds? Do your dogs just run them straight? How many times do you have to handle them? if so where?
> TIA for answering my questions.


Hi! Hmmmm I think the longest one #3 is about 100 yards long. The pond is very intricately detailed but not huge.
Slater is the only blind running dog I have now and no he doesn't just line them  I wish! I tried to diagram it here about the best of my recollection. Mind you this is how I let him roll *in training* -- testing I would have kept things a lot closer on line. In training I like to let the dog make some decisions, perhaps roll a little more to keep up momentum, etc. Red are his lines, blue dots are stop/cast


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## hollyk

We were out today and worked on looking long. Today was water but the same process. Singles off of multiple guns, (or multiple holding blinds). We only ran her on the long marks. Today she didn't get stuck on the close holding blinds but looked past them to the long marks. Yea Team! So I will keep to the plan and do this for a couple of weeks and then bring the short marks into the mix again.
By the way fall is here. It has rained on me the last three days I trained. At least it's still warm enough for big water swims.


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## K9-Design

OK I tried to reply and the previous page is telling me that hollyk is the last one to reply on this thread, but I can't see anything past my post #90....so this is a test


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## K9-Design

dup post, sorry


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## boomers_dawn

We trained this evening with training buddy #2 (TB2). Ugh. Once again, I didn't notice until too late what was wrong with our setup, or push my speaking up points. We went to a field TB2 found, I thought there was a long driveway in so we were in the middle of nowhere. TB2 picked the line and direction to run and said let's set up whatever's good for Gladys. So I said a triple, she needs to count to 3, prep for fun trial qual, I don't know what to expect, so set something up and we'll try it. So TB#2 says he wants to try an in-throw. Fine, I've seen those sometimes. Next he says he wants to do a flower pot. (I think this may have been for ease of winger-re-setting, since we had previously agreed not to do anything crazy or too tight). 

I said I thought that would make the set up too close together and we had already agreed we wouldn't do anything crazy or too pinched.

He said no, the wingers would throw them way far and they would all be really far apart. I set up a mark off to the side to the best of my engineering ability considering the angle and tension of the winger carefully. TB#2 just set them high on highest tension. So we decided to do Dee Dee first since she would do singles, we could see how they land.

So .. I get Dee Dee and in the process of going to the line notice I can see some cars zipping by through the tree line. Now the warning buzzer is going off in my head. Since the driveway in seemed so long, I didn't get how I was seeing traffic so I was making Note to self, don't let Dee Dee get in the woods. So, we set off the first single, the in-throw. Surprise surprise, an in-throw, shooting up waaay high in the air instead of far out; so she blows right by it to the treeline. I stopped her and called her in. We just were not going there at all period. Screw the mark and the fact we never want her coming back empty handed. We tried the second mark (also sailing waaay high in the air instead of far/out) and she blew past that to the trees too. I called her in and she did the last mark fine.

TB#2 asked did I want to run Dee Dee again but I said no, I had no idea the road was so close and didn't want her running around there. If I had known we were running towards a road so close I could see traffic whizzing by, I would have set up in a different direction. 

This is all my bad, not to blame him, I just wish I had noticed when we were setting up and stuck to my guns about the flower potted in-throw too.

So we decided to swap the light dokkens for white bumpers b/c they would be more visible against the treeline. When I was reloading the wingers, I could see there was a line of trees, a stone wall, then the road! TB#2 said he was happy with the mark placement! to each his own. TB#2's 2-leg towards master dog was in the treeline, tried to switch on the stupid flowerpot in-throw, and needed to be handled at least once, maybe twice.

I moved the wingers, opened the angles, and lessened the tension for Gladys but when it was her turn, she still ended up at the treeline on the in-throw, tried to switch, and needed to be handled. She forgot the middle mark, tried to go back to the old fall, got called in and given a reminder quack and re-send. 

She got a correction and managed the blind somewhat. I noticed myself rushing b/c TB#2 planted the blind at the property edge where homeowners were partying loudly outside and I didn't want Gladys near them or on their property so I kept a tight rein on her. 

I could not wait to get out of there between the road and the partiers.
Ugh ugh ugh ugh. I am the queen of allowing dumb setups.

ETA: when we got home I saw blood on the quilt Gladys was sitting on + bitch check positive = no more need to train for fun trial qual stake


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## MillionsofPeaches

Thanks, Anney, that really helps me. I really like to see what are the natural suctions for more experienced dogs since I'm so new at handling. I see that on line one it is like what you said about the more cheaty mark. He definitely was pulling towards land but on the other marks it was straighter lines. Thanks for taking the time out to do that. Believe me I'm really studying it right now.


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## FTGoldens

K9-Design said:


> water blinds yesterday @ Betsy's pond -- ran in order 1, 2, 3
> 
> View attachment 444689


Wow, that's a great training pond! There's a lot of stuff in that 100 yard pond. (I've printed the image so that if I ever have the opportunity to build or modify a pond, I can plagiarize some of the ideas.)
I REALLY like the pot holes at the end of the pond. I recall that Bill Eckett has a bunch of pot holes scattered around his property ... and his dogs run great water blinds. 
I was recently judging an all-age stake and for the water blind we used a pot hole at the beginning of the blind. At first we had a fairly routine angle entry blind, probably a tough Qual blind, but since we were judging the "big" dogs, we figured that we didn't have enough test ... frankly, we thought that many dogs would see the picture and get that angle entry on the initial line. So we backed up 40 yards and put a pot hole in the test. (There was also a dry pop, and a couple of points to deal with.) The pot hole removed the picture and broke the momentum on the initial line, so it became a test of handling instead a test for an initial line.
FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

Hunted over pointers last weekend for ptarmigan and grouse. They are not retrievers, they just point. I didn't really understand why you would want a pointer, but it was interesting to try out. The terrain was very steep and the brush was 12' or more high at the lower elevations, then waist to shoulder high in higher elevations with bumpy muskeg. I hate walking in bumpy soft muskeg. Hunting with the pointers made me miss my dogs. At least mine would bring me my birds. Duck hunting this weekend I think. Need to get in as much water work as possible before the water gets more frozen, a little ice is ok. The leaves are off the trees and the days are getting a lot shorter. Winter is just about here. Snow maybe this weekend. The lakes down below had ducks in them. They are already mostly frozen over. I was surprised there was no snow at the elevation we were at. Winter comes too soon in Alaska.


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## K9-Design

Quick but fruitful training tonight. I was early (for once in my life) so while I waited for Kristin I did both (dumbbell) retrieve and drop on recall & straight recalls with Slater. Both the retrieve and recalls were done with a bucket full of bumpers on one side and a bucket of birds on the other. Slater ignored them -- good dog!! Then I did two baby tracks with Bally......holding the lead while Bally tracks is something like waterskiiing......

When Kristin arrived we set up A-B-C-D drill with 5 holding blinds. The cover was very thick and high in spots that the dogs had to bound over -- very cute. Excellent work marking in cover for everyone. It's that time of year where they haven't mowed yet but it rains too much and the cover out-grows the cows.


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## hotel4dogs

We had a disaster day training today, sort of.
I make it no secret that I don't train except when we go to Dan's. But I've been feeling guilty about it lately. Well, normally I spend all day Tuesday with my Mom, but she happened to be out of town this week, which left me with a rare free morning. So I decided to take Tito out training. I had even thawed some birds in preparation for my big venture.
My husband offered to go with me, so we loaded up the winger, the e-collar, various gear, birds, dog, and off we went. We drove to the training area, which I have sworn over and over I would never go to again (for anyone who has run hunt tests in this area, Des Plaines Conservation Area). Too many ticks, burrs, etc. and every time he has gone in the water there he has some itchy yucky skin stuff afterwards. But there's another area near there that no one uses, I've been there once, it's quite nice, so I thought we'd just go there.
So off we went. Got almost to the area I wanted to head to. I say almost, because about 500 yards short the road was closed. As in totally ripped up. So we just pulled off to the side to try that field that we were next to instead.
Headed out into the field. You couldn't tell from the street, but there was a huge dip, and the cover was up to my shoulders about 30 yards in. Not anything we could work with.
Back in the car. Moved a bit to what looked like a flatter area, headed out again (with winger and bucket of birds each time of course). Yes, nice and flat. With---I kid you not---CACTUS everywhere!!!! Little short growing, sharp spikes, CACTUS. Now this is ILLINOIS. We don't HAVE cactus.
Back in the car. Back to the main training area. Pull off on a small gravel area to the side of the road. Found a nice looking field, drag the stuff back out in the field. Get a really nice set-up, just a nice double, and plant a great blind. 
No sooner get Tito out of the car than the conservation guys show up, and tell me I can NOT park there, and I will have to move IMMEDIATELY. I sweetly point out that it doesn't SAY no parking, and it's gravel. Tough. Move the **** car.
Ok, collect up all the stuff, back in the car. Move farther along to somewhere I am SURE is a parking area. There's just a small field near it, very narrow, but I figure if we run the length of it, we can get a decent distance for him. 
Start dragging the stuff out into the field. Get about 50 yards and find the whole field is choked with brambles (might have been wild raspberries) for about 20 yards. No way am I running him through that stuff.
Back in the car. Head to another field, with a real nice parking area. Sure, there's another guy there, training his dog. Don't want to infringe on him, so we just head off and look for someplace different.
Find another parking spot near a field that looks promising. A bit of a hike to the field with the stuff, but do-able. Off we go. Get the winger set up about 100 yards out in the field, put a blind out, go get the dog.
So we throw the double, and Tito just slams it. And is totally, as in totally, covered in little black burr type seeds. These are about maybe 1/8th inch, round black things. Which unfortunately look a whole lot like ticks. 
Send him to pick up the blind, which he does an admirable job on.
Then back to the car to use a fine tooth comb and try to get all the seeds off him so I can be sure there are no ticks on him. They (the seeds) are EVERYWHERE. Tiny little things. I suspect I will be picking them off him for the next week. 
In a total of almost 3 hours, we ran one double, and one short blind.


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## K9-Design

Oh Barb -- what a mess!!!! I have had days like that -- and have given up and gone home! LOL I still can't believe you only train at Dan's.

Today I met Kristin at the Santa Fe CC field and set up 3 marks and 3 blinds. Was kind of pleased with our setup as the dogs actually had some trouble with things. The field is nearly flat and mowed short so yay -- go us
First mark was at the upper left edge of a dip in the terrain, throwing left to right up the hill, dogs had to go down and back up the bowl. Ran blind to the right of it and paralleling a tree line. 2nd mark was way to the left of this, long flat throw, run long blind under the arc to the far end of the field (~200 yards). Middle mark was deep of the other two and thrown far (small white bumper) angle back. The blind was deep of this to the backside of it where the dog had to take the right lane between the right and middle holding blinds, but very close skimming the right holding blind. Anyways it was interesting because on the middle blind all the dogs wanted to fall down the hill toward where they picked up mark #1, and had to fight to handle and keep them on the left side of that short holding blind. 

On two of the blinds I had two cast refusals in a row with Slater, after the second bad cast I stopped him again and yelled "NO" -- brought him in a few feet, re-cast, and then he took the perfect cast I wanted all the way to the blind. He doesn't really understand indirect pressure for a bad cast but does respond to just "NO" -- but a fine line because I HATE when people yell NO every time their dog takes a bad cast. I wish he would connect the dots to an immediate whistle after a cast means, you too the wrong cast!!! Why don't dogs speak English???
I'll try to draw up a diagram later on tonight...

Bally just did the marks -- steady -- and in the past week or so I've been teaching him little hand-thrown diversion bumpers on the way back from his marks and he's totally got it -- he loves them


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## K9-Design

OK my illustration deserves some sort of medal of honor, don't you think?

All 3 marks & blinds run at one time, mark 1, blind 2, mark 2, blind 2, mark 3, blind 3. Blinds 2 and 3 both about 200 yards. Blind #2 was actually much deeper of the mark than this, the mark was really about halfway to the blind. The little dark green spots are trees (see, very sophisticated), the big medium green spot is a "valley."









Here is how Slater handled the blinds...


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## MillionsofPeaches

oooooh thanks for the illustrations! So on the Nos! Are those nicks? If so, you wait and save your nicks for the third time he continues to let the suction pull him? 3 is interesting to me and hard. He actually veered off line but away from the old AOF at the end of it.


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## K9-Design

Hi! No when I yelled "NO" I did not nick but if he had taken another bad cast in the same direction he wanted, I would have stopped with a SIT WHISTLE - "NO!" - NICK. Actually on both blinds when I gave him 2 chances, when I finally yelled NO he came forward a few steps on his own and stopped his momentum. Usually if a dog keeps digging back like that, you really need to whistle them in a few feet, closer to the right path, to break their momentum. Slater sorta did it himself 
He really doesn't understand a sit-nick-sit as indirect pressure for a cast refusal, that's why I'm verbally telling him NO. Not sure if it's a hole in my training or just this particular dog.

Yes you are observant in seeing that after he got out of the "danger zone" on blind 3 he went wide of mark #2. Not only was he perhaps flaring that gun a little bit to keep himself super-honest, but the terrain to the right of mark #3 had NOTHING -- dogs do not like to run into a pinch, they want to open themselves up and avoid that physical pressure of the terrain. This is why you have to teach them things like keyholes, hills, etc.


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## MillionsofPeaches

this whole setup is a good one for me to observe. Thanks for taking that time to explain what you did. I actually learned something about my own dog because of it.


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## hotel4dogs

Let's move to an October thread!


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