# Breeders feeding 3 star dog food



## oakleysmommy

Nothing to be concerned about at all. Most top breeders feed those foods and nothing wrong with it. I have 4 dogs and all my breeders feed ProPlan or Eukanuba. I would stick with what your breeder is feeding for quite awhile. They know what their lines do best on to grow them out nicely,,,i wish i stayed on the foods they were feeding...if you switch wait awhile let they puppy get used to his new family etc..You can bring on a host of issues by switching foods. Remember the "higher" foods arent always better esp for a puppy. can be too rich or just not agree. Congrats


----------



## Jamm

Nothing to be concerned about at all  Most breeders have more than 5 dogs and that would get pretty costly feeding a food that is $70 for 25lbs.. Some of the best dogs are fed purina


----------



## MyBentley

I would not be concerned about the quality of the dogs or the reputation of the breeder. While neither Purina products nor Royal Canin fall into my preferred brands to feed; I recognize that Purina, especially, is frequently fed by breeders. There is a long institutionalized history of feeding it long before many of the current brands came into being. And the price point is pretty good for those who get a breeder's discount.

I fed Orijen Large Breed Puppy to one of my dogs some years ago and she did fine. If I had a new puppy today, I'd strongly consider the Acana Wild Prairie (all life stages formula) or Fromm Puppy Gold. There is a very fine line in the amount to feed of a food like Orijen between "just right" and "a bit too much" where diarrhea or soft stools result. 

While some people say to keep a puppy on the same food as the breeder fed for 4 - 6 months, I've never had a problem with a gradual transition (10 days) a couple of weeks after bringing the dog home.


----------



## oakleysmommy

i switched each one of mine when getting them home gradually and that is when i began the horrid food roller coaster((


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Pro Plan, Royal Canin, Eukanuba and the like wouldn't bother me a bit...but something like Ol Roy would. 

Not every dog needs a "5 star food" or even does well on it. My golden is one of them.


----------



## Soontobedad

thanks a lot guys, i've placed the deposit, and it can't be the cost because royal canin costs the same as premium / 6* foods, unless they're getting sponsers / discounts.

Maybe what my breeder ( animation acres ) says is true

"It is a myth that grains are bad for dogs. Grains such as corn are very beneficial to dogs and the food companies that we recommend certainly use the best part of the grain which is highly digestible and high in protein. 
"


----------



## Vhuynh2

My breeder feeds Pro Plan Performance, and she said she highly preferred that I have Molly on Pro Plan her entire life. I don't think she would say that if she didn't truly believe Pro Plan was best for her dogs. I always think about switching because I do want to give Molly what's best, but it's working for her right now.


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Soontobedad said:


> thanks a lot guys, i've placed the deposit, and it can't be the cost because royal canin costs the same as premium / 6* foods, unless they're getting sponsers / discounts.
> 
> Maybe what my breeder ( animation acres ) says is true
> 
> "It is a myth that grains are bad for dogs. Grains such as corn are very beneficial to dogs and the food companies that we recommend certainly use the best part of the grain which is highly digestible and high in protein.
> "


So exciting for you! Has your pup been born yet or are you waiting for a future litter? 

As for grains in foods--you'll get a lot of opinions on this as well. For me, my dogs seem to tolerate grains fine, so it's non-issue for me. Some believe dogs aren't meant to eat grains, and that is fine too--it's all personal preference and what your dog does well on, IMO. 

What I don't get is how the food rating sites (such as dog food advisor) can rate foods 4 star based on ingredients alone. I never "got" that something like Diamond Naturals could be 4 star, yet, so could Fromm. Not saying Diamond Naturals is horrible (well, unless you take into consideration the recent recall) but I am saying that foods cannot be equal based on ingredients alone, IMO. On those dog food rating sites, I like to use them as a tool to compare ingredients--but am not in the mindset that "I must feed a 5 star food or I'm a bad dog Mom". 

Tell us more about your pup and is this your first?


----------



## JazzSkye

Soontobedad said:


> Maybe what my breeder ( animation acres ) says is true
> 
> "It is a myth that grains are bad for dogs. Grains such as corn are very beneficial to dogs and the food companies that we recommend certainly use the best part of the grain which is highly digestible and high in protein.
> "


Or maybe it's not:

Corn in Dog Food. Really?


----------



## Swampcollie

Soontobedad said:


> thanks a lot guys, i've placed the deposit, and it can't be the cost because royal canin costs the same as premium / 6* foods, unless they're getting sponsers / discounts.
> 
> Maybe what my breeder ( animation acres ) says is true
> 
> "It is a myth that grains are bad for dogs. Grains such as corn are very beneficial to dogs and the food companies that we recommend certainly use the best part of the grain which is highly digestible and high in protein.
> "


Listen to your breeder!

Those sites that offer up ratings based upon ingredient lists aren't worth your time to read and are based more upon philosophy than science. 

Look at the dogs, their health and condition. If they're doing well on Pro Plan, it's a pretty good bet your pup will too.


----------



## Shalva

Ok I don't necessarily think Grains are good for dogs and I don't really understand why your breeder feels the need to justify what she feeds in this way but none the less some dogs do fine with grains some don't... some people can eat hot peppers some can't. I have always said the proof is in the pudding... if the dogs are healthy and look good then who cares what she is feeding, it works for her... and her dogs. 

My Natalie came from a breeder who feeds dog chow... would that be my choice? no but it works for her and when you have ten Irish Wolfhounds food expense can be an issue... shoot with my 9 it can be an issue... and I have been seriously rethinking how I feed my dogs. I have a choice I can continue to feed this ridiculously expensive food or I can downsize the number of dogs I have... I am thinking I will go with cheaper food... not junk but less expensive... 

I agree with swamp and I don't think highly of those dog food rating sights... You have to feed what you can afford and what your dogs do well on... and that is whats important
s


----------



## oakleysmommy

Its not the whole corn kernel in the food its usually corn meal which is easily digestible. Those dog food sites are just opinions as far as 3 star and 6 star ratings. Even if breeders have been feeding these foods before all these "better foods" came out if works for their dogs and their puppies why mess with that and potentially cause issues? ive been there done that. i now feed a middle of the road food. after switching and switching i am right back to where i started.


----------



## arcane

breeders feed their dogs what works for them, what concerns me in regard to these high end protiens, ACANA/ORIGEN is rapid growth, and stress on the liver over time, I have found a corn,wheat, additive free food that is a good price point for feeding multiple dogs, It is all life stages so good for puppies through the senior years. My stitch is growing very slow and gradual his littermates have passed him in size at this point, but I dont have the concern in regards to his joints. regardless of what food you choose to feed your pup, stick with what your breeder has fed for a couple months (minimum) to ease the trnsition into your home.


----------



## Soontobedad

Wagners Mom said:


> So exciting for you! Has your pup been born yet or are you waiting for a future litter?
> 
> As for grains in foods--you'll get a lot of opinions on this as well. For me, my dogs seem to tolerate grains fine, so it's non-issue for me. Some believe dogs aren't meant to eat grains, and that is fine too--it's all personal preference and what your dog does well on, IMO.
> 
> What I don't get is how the food rating sites (such as dog food advisor) can rate foods 4 star based on ingredients alone. I never "got" that something like Diamond Naturals could be 4 star, yet, so could Fromm. Not saying Diamond Naturals is horrible (well, unless you take into consideration the recent recall) but I am saying that foods cannot be equal based on ingredients alone, IMO. On those dog food rating sites, I like to use them as a tool to compare ingredients--but am not in the mindset that "I must feed a 5 star food or I'm a bad dog Mom".
> 
> Tell us more about your pup and is this your first?



we're waiting for a future litter, we placed a deposit yesterday and we're getting first pick!!!

their due date is on june the 7th.

i can't wait, today is supplies shopping day.


as for the food, my breeder says "I would really like to have the puppy fed Royal Canin for at least the first 6 months you have her because I know that it is properly balanced to meet the proper needs of a growing puppy. I get very concerned about some of the other foods because in this case both Orijen and Acana are very high protein (about 8-10% higher than Royal Canin). This is something that can lead to health problems in a dog long term."

i trust her, but royal canin is pretty expensive, and i can get blue buff or something similar that doesnt have a lot of fillers for the same price.

what do you guys think?


----------



## Pointgold

*i*



Soontobedad said:


> I was just wondering if this is something i should be worried about, before i send in the deposit.
> 
> several breeders i've contacted feed purina pro plan / royal canin / etc
> 
> the dam and sire look wonderful, and they look healthy and have all of their clearances, and the breeder is reputable and knowledgable.
> 
> I will be switching to acana / orijen when the puppy is home.
> 
> Thank you.


 
They feed it for a reason. The dogs look wonderful, healthy, have all their clearances, and the breeder is reputable and knowlegable. That said, why would you switch when it is obviously working for their (soon to be your) dog? The star rating? Means little or nothing, actually.


----------



## Pointgold

Jamm said:


> Nothing to be concerned about at all  Most breeders have more than 5 dogs and that would get pretty costly feeding a food that is $70 for 25lbs.. Some of the best dogs are fed purina


 
Trust me, it's not about the cost. It IS about _what the dogs do best on. _
Broken record here, but when a majority of the top winning dogs (in all venues) are fed Purina ProPlan, it says something. It is an excellent product, consistent in quality and ingredients, and, it's never been recalled.
Frankly, I'd continue to feed it (to 8 dogs...) if it WERE more expensive. Although I cannot see why any dog food should cost $70 for 25 pounds...


----------



## Soontobedad

Pointgold said:


> They feed it for a reason. The dogs look wonderful, healthy, have all their clearances, and the breeder is reputable and knowlegable. That said, why would you switch when it is obviously working for their (soon to be your) dog? The star rating? Means little or nothing, actually.


*from what i read* Purina and alike offers discounted prices for bulk buying or programs where every 10th or so bag is free. Simply put, they make it worthwhile from a monetary standpoint to feed/advertise their products. 

theyre feeding 10 dogs, im feeding 1, so i understand why they feed foods that are abit cheaper, but for me if i can get better dog food for the same price and it works for my puppy then id rather switch.

because she might turn out even healthier!


----------



## Stretchdrive

Sounds like the breeders dogs are doing great on the food she is using. What I would do(out of respect for the breeder, and her contract) is feed the food she recomends for the 6 months, and then make a decision. You may love it. If you do not like it after the 6 month period, then I would discuss food choices with the breeder again, and come up with a decision together. 

Have fun buying stuff for the new puppy!! Puppies are so much fun!!


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Soontobedad said:


> *from what i read* Purina and alike offers discounted prices for bulk buying or programs where every 10th or so bag is free. Simply put, they make it worthwhile from a monetary standpoint to feed/advertise their products.
> 
> theyre feeding 10 dogs, im feeding 1, so i understand why they feed foods that are abit cheaper, but for me if i can get better dog food for the same price and it works for my puppy then id rather switch.
> 
> because she might turn out even healthier!


The thing is...just because it may look better on paper or may have better advertising, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for your dog. You may have to go through 5 foods to find one that works--and in the meantime, you may have a lot of carpet cleaning/vet visits in the process. 

I would honestly listen to your breeder and if she would like the dog to be fed RC, that is what *I* would do. It's not always as easy as "picking one" and it being a good food for your dog--so if it's not broke, I wouldn't fix it.  

So what if Purina, Eukanuba, RC or whoever offers discounts on their food for buying a lot. If the dogs look good, it's working--with or without a discount!


----------



## MercyMom

My breeder recommends Eukanuba, but not the large puppy breed. She recommends feeding Eukanuba Small Breed Puppy for our goldens until the bag is mostly empty and then to Feed Eukanuba Peformance 30/20 for sporting breeds.


----------



## tippykayak

Those star ratings are based entirely on a dog food philosophy held by the site's owners. If the food conforms to their philosophy, it gets more stars. If it doesn't, it gets fewer stars.

Those ratings have little to do with hard science and empirical data. For example, they make a lot of the difference between "chicken meal" and "chicken byproduct meal." The difference is that "byproduct" includes organ meat and ground bone, two great sources of nutrition. Chicken meal and chicken byproduct meal are two different ingredients, but one isn't necessarily superior to the other.

Personally, I'd rather feed according to results than according to philosophy. If a dog thrives on a food without grains, that's a result, and more power to those owners. Be aware that "grain free" often means that the starch is simply replaced with a non-grain starch, like potato or peas. I'm not sure why people believe potato is nutritionally superior to corn.

Despite all the philosophy and hype, I don't know of a single all-meat kibble. Even the most expensive "5 star" foods use some kind of starch. That's because dogs wouldn't thrive on chicken-meat-only kibble.

Most dogs thrive just as well (and frequently better) on a food with a reasonable amount of corn as they do on a food with a reasonable amount of potato. There are so many myths and urban legends about dog food at this point that it's pretty easy to get lost in the difference between substantiated facts and philosophies that sound good but ultimately have little evidence supporting them.


----------



## Willow52

Wagners Mom said:


> *The thing is...just because it may look better on paper or may have better advertising, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for your dog.* You may have to go through 5 foods to find one that works--and in the meantime, you may have a lot of carpet cleaning/vet visits in the process.
> 
> I would honestly listen to your breeder and if she would like the dog to be fed RC, that is what *I* would do. It's not always as easy as "picking one" and it being a good food for your dog--so if it's not broke, I wouldn't fix it.
> 
> So what if Purina, Eukanuba, RC or whoever offers discounts on their food for buying a lot. If the dogs look good, it's working--with or without a discount!


Totally agree... I attempted to switch Hank from Innova (which he had been on most of his life) due to a big jump in price, to ProPlan Sensitive Skin & Stomach. Now you'd think from the name and advertising that the ingredients would not cause any allergic reactions. About 3 weeks into the transition he started itching to the point of hair loss around his tail. After several trips to the vet, meds, shot, with no relief, I thought about the new food. BINGO...Took him off the new food and it all cleared up.

Innova works for him so we're staying with it.

Years ago we had a black Lab in our neighborhood, s/he had the most beautiful coat I had ever seen. One day I asked the owners what they we feeding...Iams.


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Willow52 said:


> Totally agree... I attempted to switch Hank from Innova (which he had been on most of his life) due to a big jump in price, to ProPlan Sensitive Skin & Stomach. Now you'd think from the name and advertising that the ingredients would not cause any allergic reactions. About 3 weeks into the transition he started itching to the point of hair loss around his tail. After several trips to the vet, meds, shot, with no relief, I thought about the new food. BINGO...Took him off the new food and it all cleared up.
> 
> Innova works for him so we're staying with it.
> 
> Years ago we had a black Lab in our neighborhood, s/he had the most beautiful coat I had ever seen. One day I asked the owners what they we feeding...Iams.


I have to laugh...when I was searching for a new food, a little over a month ago--I went into Petsmart to look around. 

In my mind, I was seriously debating between the Eukanuba and Pro Plan as the higher end foods just weren't working for my guys. There was a girl looking at Pro plan with two dogs and her dogs had the NICEST coats--so I asked her if she fed Pro plan. She said she had just switched to it about a week prior and what I was seeing was Pedigree. Pedigree!!! I was so disappointed it wasn't an option for me because they really did look fantastic! lol. So while I'd personally not use Pedigree (and some others), I couldn't knock her for using it when her dogs looked that good.


----------



## Soontobedad

Id just like to add that nestle makes coffee products and various of other products

I just don't trust a company like that to make quality dog food, sorry.

I don't mind if a reputable breeder feeds their dogs purina because of incentives, but i want whats best for my dog.

You get what you pay for.


----------



## Tahnee GR

Soontobedad said:


> Id just like to add that nestle makes coffee products and various of other products
> 
> I just don't trust a company like that to make quality dog food, sorry.
> 
> I don't mind if a reputable breeder feeds their dogs purina because of incentives, but i want whats best for my dog.
> 
> You get what you pay for.


Breeders feed Purina ProPlan, or whatever other food they feed, because of the results they get, not the incentives. Incentives are nice but if your dog isn't winning because of poor coat condition or muscling, or your bitch is producing sickly puppies, then the incentives are worthless. Top winning dogs in all fields of endeavor are fed Purina-not because of incentives but because it works.

And no, I don't feed Purina  although it is one of the foods I recommend as an alternative to my puppy buyers. I rotate between Diamond Naturals and Canidae, with the occasional bit of peanut butter thrown in


----------



## Soontobedad

Tahnee GR said:


> Breeders feed Purina ProPlan, or whatever other food they feed, because of the results they get, not the incentives. Incentives are nice but if your dog isn't winning because of poor coat condition or muscling, or your bitch is producing sickly puppies, then the incentives are worthless. Top winning dogs in all fields of endeavor are fed Purina-not because of incentives but because it works.
> 
> And no, I don't feed Purina  although it is one of the foods I recommend as an alternative to my puppy buyers. I rotate between Diamond Naturals and Canidae, with the occasional bit of peanut butter thrown in


Purina might work well for dogs, but how would breeders know if purina is the best if they havent given a fair amount of premium brands dog food a try? 

Would you go as far as to say Purina is better than orijen / acana?


"The fifth ingredient is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.
Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in many of the essential amino acids dogs need for life.
This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food."


"The third ingredient is wheat. Like corn, wheat is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog.
For this reason, we do not consider wheat a preferred component in any dog food."


----------



## Pointgold

Soontobedad said:


> *from what i read* Purina and alike offers discounted prices for bulk buying or programs where every 10th or so bag is free. Simply put, they make it worthwhile from a monetary standpoint to feed/advertise their products.
> 
> theyre feeding 10 dogs, im feeding 1, so i understand why they feed foods that are abit cheaper, but for me if i can get better dog food for the same price and it works for my puppy then id rather switch.
> 
> because she might turn out even healthier!


I subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought. 
I feed ProPlan. Have for a million years. My dogs are super healthy, have gorgeous coats, and enjoy excellent longevity (_healthy _old age, not just old). I am a Pro Club member. Frankly, as worthwhile as they make it, I usually forget to send in weight circles anyway. Believe me. It isn't about incentives. I'd feed the stuff even if there _weren't_ incentives, because my dogs thrive on it.


----------



## tippykayak

A good breeder doesn't choose the product because of the group deal. They choose it because they actually believe it's better.

I'm not a breeder, but I feed the Eukanuba PP 30/20 because I believe it's the best food for my dogs. I can certainly afford more expensive food, and I'd buy it if I felt it were even the slightest bit of an improvement.


----------



## tippykayak

Soontobedad said:


> "The fifth ingredient is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.
> Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in many of the essential amino acids dogs need for life.
> This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food."
> 
> 
> "The third ingredient is wheat. Like corn, wheat is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog.
> For this reason, we do not consider wheat a preferred component in any dog food."


You can copy whatever you like off random sites on the internet. It doesn't make it true. If you believe that this stuff is reliable, I have a bridge you might be interested in.

Whoever wrote this has only the most cursory understanding of biochemistry. Saying "Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it" shows an appalling lack of understanding of what gluten actually is and how it gets separated from starches. In fact, it looks like the author has plagiarized part of the Wikipedia article on gluten and then misunderstood what he plagiarized. Are we then to trust the rest of the author has to say?

"Like corn, wheat is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog." What criteria are we using to measure "nutritional value?" What standards are we using to measure the ways dogs access that nutrition?

Guess what? It doesn't matter to this author. What matters is a particular agenda in his head, and he's going to fit the facts to it. That's the diametric opposite of real science.

There is real science on corn, wheat, potato, meat, meal, byproducts, and all the other stuff in the dog food debate. It gets very little airtime on these rating sites.


----------



## Pointgold

Soontobedad said:


> Id just like to add that nestle makes coffee products and various of other products
> 
> I just don't trust a company like that to make quality dog food, sorry.
> 
> I don't mind if a reputable breeder feeds their dogs purina because of incentives, but i want whats best for my dog.
> 
> You get what you pay for.


 
Diversification. It's not a bad thing at all. That's like saying "I'm not going to use Scope Mouthwash because Proctor and Gamble also produces DuraCell batteries.


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Soontobedad said:


> Purina might work well for dogs, but how would breeders know if purina is the best if they havent given a fair amount of premium brands dog food a try?
> 
> Would you go as far as to say Purina is better than orijen / acana?
> 
> 
> "The fifth ingredient is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.
> Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in many of the essential amino acids dogs need for life.
> This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food."
> 
> 
> "The third ingredient is wheat. Like corn, wheat is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog.
> For this reason, we do not consider wheat a preferred component in any dog food."


Which specific food are you pulling this off of--and which site? dogfoodadvisor or something of the like?


----------



## Pointgold

Soontobedad said:


> Purina might work well for dogs, but how would breeders know if purina is the best if they havent given a fair amount of premium brands dog food a try?
> 
> Would you go as far as to say Purina is better than orijen / acana?
> 
> 
> "The fifth ingredient is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.
> Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in many of the essential amino acids dogs need for life.
> This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food."
> 
> 
> "The third ingredient is wheat. Like corn, wheat is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog.
> For this reason, we do not consider wheat a preferred component in any dog food."


 
I've been doing this for a million years. So, yeah, I _have_ tried more than a fair number of premium brands. And for my dogs (and obviously, a huge number of the top winning dogs in the country) Purina IS "better" than Orijen/Acana. And the breeder who you trust enough to buy a puppy from knows her dogs, and for her dogs, Brand _________ is better. How is it that you don't trust that?


----------



## ashleylp

I'm no breeder but I will say that our experience with food has been a battle. Hopefully your pup won't develop any allergies but mine did and we had to switch foods like crazy to finally find one that worked with his coat and made his stools solid. He went through months of loose stools (no parasites, etc) before finding a food that sat well on his stomach. 

If you trust the breeder to produce you a good puppy, I'd trust the breeder's recommendation in food as well. However, pups develop allergies... and you can always change to something else if you want/need to.


----------



## Vhuynh2

I like to trust that my breeder does what's best for her dogs. Why would I buy from a breeder who doesn't? If they are striving to produce the best dogs, why would they skimp on something so important, like food? Bottom line is that I trust my breeder AND the food they feed. Shouldn't everyone?


----------



## oakleysmommy

I saw you mentioned Blue Buffalo..i have never tried it but from all the threads i have read about it, its too rich and causes loose stools. You have gotton very good advice here by very knowledgable members i would stick with Royal Canin. The "better" foods may look better but for me personally, they arent. I had loose stools, weight loss, poor coats etc. I have a 4 year old lab poor girl i tried all the high end foods on her with all the "extras" for 3 years she had ear issues, the worse dandruff i have ever seen, her coat was stiff, now i cannot even believe how her coat is. its so soft and fluffy my kids comment on it all the time. and her ears are great. I feed Precise Chicken and Rice. if for some reason it becomes a problem for my dogs i am going back to ProPlan or Eukanuba without hesitation. And i agree with Pointgold Purina is better than Acana/Orijen too many bells and whistles in those foods for what??? I tried em all.


----------



## desi.n.nutro

Wagners Mom said:


> As for grains in foods--you'll get a lot of opinions on this as well. For me, my dogs seem to tolerate grains fine, so it's non-issue for me. Some believe dogs aren't meant to eat grains, and that is fine too--it's all personal preference and what your dog does well on, IMO.
> 
> What I don't get is how the food rating sites (such as dog food advisor) can rate foods 4 star based on ingredients alone. I never "got" that something like Diamond Naturals could be 4 star, yet, so could Fromm. Not saying Diamond Naturals is horrible (well, unless you take into consideration the recent recall) but I am saying that foods cannot be equal based on ingredients alone, IMO. On those dog food rating sites, I like to use them as a tool to compare ingredients--but am not in the mindset that "I must feed a 5 star food or I'm a bad dog Mom".


IMO, too. The ingredients and combination of ingredients are important first and foremost but what about food safety? What about how it is manufactured? Where the ingredients come from? Storage and distribution? Quality checks? The rating sights are a good tool. A good place to begin but I have to add that when comparing ingredients, check out each foods own sight. In the case of Nutro, I have found that most information on the rating sites is out-dated or just plain wrong.

I would also like to chime in on the switching slow advice. I couldn't agree more. When you are switching foods it is best to do it after the transition from litter to home is complete. So many things cause digestive upset and that includes a new environment. Best not to complicate that with the possible food change upsets. When you do switch, take a while. Going from a science based brand like RC or Purina to natural brands usually calls for a couple weeks and if you are changing proteins, add another week. Again, IMO.


----------



## Wagners Mom2

Soontobedad said:


> Would you go as far as to say Purina is better than orijen / acana?


For my dogs, absolutely. Acana did not agree with my guys, at all.


----------



## Florabora22

Although I get the feeling you're going to do what you want to do regardless of what anyone says here (and of course, that's your right), I figure I would chime in.

I too suffered from the idea that I must feed my puppy the absolute highest quality kibble I could afford, regardless of what her breeder (a highly reputable, popular breeder amongst this forum) fed her.

I switched Flora from Eukanuba to Solid Gold when she was around 3 months old. Diarrhea. So I slowly switched her to Blue Buffalo. Diarrhea. So then I switched her to Orijen. Diarrhea. And I'm talking about constant, watery diarrhea that would stink up the entire house when she defecated inside. The constant switching of foods + the richness of these foods did not agree with her. Especially Blue Buffalo, that stuff was toxic with Flora.

Per our vet's advice I switched Flora cold turkey (with the help of some medicine!) to Purina Pro Plan Sensitive formula and have never looked back. I'm certainly not saying that these other foods are bad, but that they were just not a good idea to try out on such a young puppy. If anything, I strongly suggest keeping your puppy on the breeder's food for several, SEVERAL months before venturing into a new food, if you must.

God, those days of diarrhea were horrible. If I ever get a puppy again, I guarantee you I will feed him what his breeder fed him.

Good luck with your new puppy!


----------



## arcane

I find this mentality with a huge amount of puppy clients. They come to my house meet the dogs, ohh and awe over how well they look, their coats etc, then as soon as they take said puppy home, switch foods to something a pet store sales person recommends ( alot of those employees dont even have animals!) OR what their vet says is the best, you got it, HILLS :doh:.Then the calls or emails start, omg my puppy has loose stools, they are pooping 3-4 times per day, I cant get them housetrained...and the list goes on...funny the puppies that remain here, have no issues such as this, but what do I know I am only the breeder...........rant over!!:wave:


----------



## HiTideGoldens

Soontobedad said:


> *from what i read* Purina and alike offers discounted prices for bulk buying or programs where every 10th or so bag is free. Simply put, they make it worthwhile from a monetary standpoint to feed/advertise their products.
> 
> theyre feeding 10 dogs, im feeding 1, so i understand why they feed foods that are abit cheaper, but for me if i can get better dog food for the same price and it works for my puppy then id rather switch.
> 
> because she might turn out even healthier!


Just so you have all your facts straight, Champion Pet Foods (the maker of Acana and Orijen) also offers a breeder program: Champion Petfoods | Breeders The program is a free bag for every 6 purchased. So....they make it worthwhile for breeders too.

Soontobedad, I just don't understand your obsession with being right about everything relating to goldens. Doing internet research doesn't replace actual experience with dogs. www.randomdogfoodinfo.com (or whatever site you're looking at) may have opinions about what makes the best food but these aren't opinions based on your own experience, you are just regurgitating information. And that is coming from me, who actually feeds Acana and likes it, but would have no problem switching foods (which we did for our Chloe) if it didn't work for the dogs.


----------



## Soontobedad

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Just so you have all your facts straight, Champion Pet Foods (the maker of Acana and Orijen) also offers a breeder program: Champion Petfoods | Breeders The program is a free bag for every 6 purchased. So....they make it worthwhile for breeders too.
> 
> Soontobedad, I just don't understand your obsession with being right about everything relating to goldens. Doing internet research doesn't replace actual experience with dogs. www.randomdogfoodinfo.com (or whatever site you're looking at) may have opinions about what makes the best food but these aren't opinions based on your own experience, you are just regurgitating information. And that is coming from me, who actually feeds Acana and likes it, but would have no problem switching foods (which we did for our Chloe) if it didn't work for the dogs.


what gave you the impression that i insisted on being right on everything i wrote about?

If i thought that then i wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> I subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" school of thought.


 
I believe in this also. I know first time puppy owners want the best for their puppies but I see no reason to switch what the breeder has been using unless of course they are having problems with it. Both my pups have been fed *gasp* Iams and they both have never had a problem and their coats are beautiful! I have never had issues with this food and don't intend on changing because it is not highly rated.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

Soontobedad said:


> what gave you the impression that i insisted on being right on everything i wrote about?
> 
> If i thought that then i wouldn't have posted this thread in the first place.


You are stating what foods are "best" and which ones are less desirable based on your web research and that breeders who feed certain foods are doing it because it's cheaper, but that YOU will feed the best food - as determined by dog food rating websites. I would never say Acana is the best food for every dog. It is what we picked for our first dog based on what we were looking for and availability in our area (we don't have big pet stores here, only small shops) and it has worked for us. Would I feed Pro Plan? Absolutely. And I wouldn't think I was selling my dog short by doing so. 

If you are saying this isn't your message, then maybe it's your choice of words, my apologies if I'm misreading something.


----------



## Soontobedad

goldenjackpuppy said:


> You are stating what foods are "best" and which ones are less desirable based on your web research and that breeders who feed certain foods are doing it because it's cheaper, but that YOU will feed the best food - as determined by dog food rating websites. I would never say Acana is the best food for every dog. It is what we picked for our first dog based on what we were looking for and availability in our area (we don't have big pet stores here, only small shops) and it has worked for us. Would I feed Pro Plan? Absolutely. And I wouldn't think I was selling my dog short by doing so. If you are saying this isn't your message, then maybe it's your choice of words, my apologies if I'm misreading something.


I never said acana will suit every dog, 

but if purina works for your dog, *AND* if acana works for your dog as well, i believe that acana would be a better choice of the two

this is assuming that *BOTH* acana and purina work well, if i had to choose, i would choose acana.

I hope you understand what i'm trying to say a bit better now.


i never ever implied in this thread that even if my dog were getting sick after eating a certain brand that i would continue feeding him that brand.

But i did imply that i like to test various of other brands, and see which brand works for my dog best, and JUST because purina works well, it doesnt mean that another brand out there won't do a better job.


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I believe in this also. I know first time puppy owners want the best for their puppies but I see no reason to switch what the breeder has been using unless of course they are having problems with it. Both my pups have been fed *gasp* Iams and they both have never had a problem and their coats are beautiful! I have never had issues with this food and don't intend on changing because it is not highly rated.


I fed Iams for years. I switched to ProPlan in the early 90's because of the Pointers (who were on Eukanuba and not maintaining weight), liked it for them, tried it Goldens, saw an improvement even over Iams (which I wasn't having problems with, but hoped to have all dogs on the same product). I have in fact tried a couple of the "better", high end, "holistic", "natura" foods, with disasterous results. Back to ProPlan and back to healthy, happy dogs.


----------



## Pointgold

Soontobedad said:


> I never said acana will suit every dog,
> 
> but if purina works for your dog, *AND* if acana works for your dog as well, i believe that acana would be a better choice of the two
> 
> this is assuming that *BOTH* acana and purina work well, if i had to choose, i would choose acana.


Why? Because Acana doesn't produce/market coffee?


----------



## Pointgold

Soontobedad said:


> But i did imply that i like to test various of other brands, and see which brand works for my dog best, and JUST because purina works well, it doesnt mean that another brand out there won't do a better job.


 
Are you aware of the problems that can occur when "testing" various other brands?

For me, as a breeder, I sure don't like to think that any of my puppies will be guinea pigs for testing different brands, and having to suffer the diarrhea, skin issues, etc, that very often go along with these experiments. If someone trusts me enough to buy a dog from me, I'd sure hope that they'd trust me to know what food my dogs do best on.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> I fed Iams for years. I switched to ProPlan in the early 90's because of the Pointers (who were on Eukanuba and not maintaining weight), liked it for them, tried it Goldens, saw an improvement even over Iams (which I wasn't having problems with, but hoped to have all dogs on the same product). I have in fact tried a couple of the "better", high end, "holistic", "natura" foods, with disasterous results. Back to ProPlan and back to healthy, happy dogs.


Your dogs don't experience stinky breath and gas from Pro plan? Just curious.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Your dogs don't experience stinky breath and gas from Pro plan? Just curious.


I feed pro plan and Molly's breath doesn't smell (although right now it is HORRID as she is teething) and she does get gas, but it seems to come in bouts (maybe several stinky farts one day a week) so I don't think it's the pro plan.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> I feed pro plan and Molly's breath doesn't smell (although right now it is HORRID as she is teething) and she does get gas, but it seems to come in bouts (maybe several stinky farts one day a week) so I don't think it's the pro plan.


Thanks! I have heard from friends that it gave their dogs the real stink lol! I have always gotten compliments about both my dogs not having bad or dog breath. Which I assume is from their diet. Another reason not to fix what ain't broke lol!


----------



## Soontobedad

Pointgold said:


> Why? Because Acana doesn't produce/market coffee?


No, because there is tons of *POSITIVE* reviews out there that out weigh
the negative reviews by *A LOT*

I can't say the same for pro plan

you're acting as if all holistic brands are bad, and that acana will for sure 100% make my dog have stomach problems.

Like you said, each dog is different so instead of me finding a low tier product that works for my dog, i'm going to find a "premium" food product that works for my dog

I will also do this slowly, and *i will trust and respect my breeder *enough to keep my dog on royal canin for 2-4 months before switching over with canned pumpkin + acana, orijen, or some other brand.


I would also like to say that i'm not trying to say that you do not know whats best for your dog just because you feed pro plan, i'm just saying i don't feel comfortable enough with the brand to feed my dog with it.


----------



## oakleysmommy

I just hope you dont get into the what seems endless road of loose stools, stomach upset, skin issues, weight issues, ear issues when you do switch.. Remember dog food companies are looking to "sell" whats going to catch the buyers eye. The pretty bag, the pics of all the fruits, veggies, and the neverending "holistic" tag on the bag. I used to think it meant something seeing all the pretty labels but found out the hard way it only means trouble for me.. Whats so great about Acana anyways??? How do you really know whats in the bag???


----------



## OutWest

I have enjoyed reading this thread...nothing quite like a healthy debate.

My two cents would be that with dog food you don't always "get what you pay for". The higher price doesn't mean the food is a premium product. It's harder to fool humans about human food, because we can all taste the difference in meat qualities, etc. No way to know what a dog tastes, or if it's really premium, unless you run a laboratory!

IMO the more appropriate quote for this decision, is "the proof is in the pudding." A happy, healthy, log-lived dog trumps any claim a manufacturer can make.


----------



## wmag

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Thanks! I have heard from friends that it gave their dogs the real stink lol! I have always gotten compliments about both my dogs not having bad or dog breath. Which I assume is from their diet. Another reason not to fix what ain't broke lol!


Kasey got terrible gas on ProPlan. I tried even tried to get her the sensitive stomach which ended up being worse. She never had bad breath besides the usual smelly puppy breath that went away quickly. ProPlan is what my breeder feeds all of her dogs. They have really beautiful coats and no problems. I would have liked to keep her on it but I could not stand the smell anymore.


----------



## mmacleod75

We feed our 7 month old pup acana wild prairie grain free and she seems happy and healthy with a beautiful coat...She's doing well on it and vet says she's very healthy. The only reason I may consider switching is because it is rather dear at $70 bucks a bag. I don't know, maybe she'd do just as good on a more reasonably priced food which is easier on my pocket book and keeps her just as healthy. I just don't want to play around with her diet right now and try when she's doing well on the Acana. She does have a bit of smelly gas very occassionally ... when she's snoozing near me I catch a whiff of something (and I know it's not me LOL :--sitnky. 
Her stool is sometimes soft, not runny...fully formed, just a bit on the soft side when picking it up. I give her a couple tbsp of canned pure pumpkin which she loves and it seems to help keep stool a bit firmer and easier to pick up. 

The reason we decided to go with Acana grain free was because it had great reviews and appears to have good ingredients (+ it's made in Canada:rockon: - I'm Canadian and like to support my Country when possibe ). I guess ultimately it boils down to what works best for you and your dog. I've been very happy with Acana, but like I said, I may be just as happy on something else and Keltey may do well on it, I don't know and can't compare. Good luck with your new puppy - can't wait to see some pictures. I think ultimately we all just want to do what we think is the best for our little fur-babies.


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Your dogs don't experience stinky breath and gas from Pro plan? Just curious.


No!!!! All of our dogs get Nature's Farmacy Digestive Enzymes, but even prior to my giving probiotics ProPlan did not cause gas or bad breath.


----------



## Jamm

Just wanted to also add that I also was 'new' to this forum and I saw many good posts about high priced foods... I switched and for a while it was actually alright for joey! He still pooped more then I wanted him too.. So I knew it wasn't 100% good for him.. but I didn't want to risk that and change to something that might be worse. That being said, There was a thread about a year ago that many members commenting on this thread, were commenting on as well and it was about Purina pro plan being a great food and that all the AKC top dogs are fed it. I read every page and I thought hey its working for SO MANY other dogs... lets try it! I bought Joey a bag of the sensitive skin and stomach and we have not turned back. He poops once... sometimes twice a day... he -rarely- farts and doesn't have 'fish' breath or stinky breath. I love this food! When I did still work at a pet store the number 1 thing I always told people is that 'there is NO best food... the best food is what works for your dog' I had a lot of people turn to Pro plan after their dogs just not agreeing with the higher priced foods.


----------



## Laurie

oakleysmommy said:


> I just hope you dont get into the what seems endless road of loose stools, stomach upset, skin issues, weight issues, ear issues when you do switch.. Remember dog food companies are looking to "sell" whats going to catch the buyers eye. The pretty bag, the pics of all the fruits, veggies, and the neverending "holistic" tag on the bag. I used to think it meant something seeing all the pretty labels but found out the hard way it only means trouble for me.. Whats so great about Acana anyways??? How do you really know whats in the bag???[/QUOTE]
> 
> That could be said about any food.......we, as dog owners, hope that what they say is in the bag, is actually in the bag.
> 
> There have a been countless threads on dog foods. In the end it comes down to "the best food for your dog, is the food he/she does best on" whether it be Purina Pro Plan, Orijen/Acana, Iams, or whatever.
> 
> I had my three guys on Horizon.....Austin and Lincoln since they were puppies and Reno since then as well. I didn't find it was working....I didn't particulary like their coats, they were gassy so I opted to try something else. About 2 years ago, I switched to Orijen. I'm happy with that product. Their coats are much softer and shinier, they have no gas and they are healthy and happy.....that's what's most important to me. Some of that may also be attributed to the fact they are also raw fed (at supper).


----------



## hotel4dogs

The person who wrote this has no qualifications listed. 
I take the opinion only of someone who is a certified veterinary nutritionist. There are about 30 in the US. They have to be a DVM with a PhD in small animal nutrition. I suspect they know more than people who write internet blogs.
The corn is put in as a carbohydrate source, not a protein source. As such, it's a perfectly legitimate food for dogs.




JazzSkye said:


> Or maybe it's not:
> 
> Corn in Dog Food. Really?


----------



## hotel4dogs

Just a small trial sample, but it speaks volumes:

Toby----Purina Pro Plan Large Breed adult then senior, died just 4 weeks short of 14 years old.
Tiny----Purina Pro Plan Large Breed adult then senior, turned 15 in March and still going strong
Tito----Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach, check out his titles, he's done pretty well on the food so far!


----------



## hotel4dogs

ouch, I have to seriously disagree with this point of view. I'd much rather buy food from a big company that has the money to do proper research and testing on their food!




Soontobedad said:


> Id just like to add that nestle makes coffee products and various of other products
> 
> I just don't trust a company like that to make quality dog food, sorry.
> 
> I don't mind if a reputable breeder feeds their dogs purina because of incentives, but i want whats best for my dog.
> 
> You get what you pay for.


----------



## hotel4dogs

If that's from the site I believe it's from, the authors have ZERO qualifications to rate dog food from an educational point of view. Furthermore, they are just plain slanting things in the direction they want to head.
As I said before, corn is added as a CARBOHYDRATE source. The people writing that website need to do a little more research, or else cite it as merely opinion.




Soontobedad said:


> Purina might work well for dogs, but how would breeders know if purina is the best if they havent given a fair amount of premium brands dog food a try?
> 
> Would you go as far as to say Purina is better than orijen / acana?
> 
> 
> "The fifth ingredient is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.
> Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in many of the essential amino acids dogs need for life.
> This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein reported on the label — a factor that must be considered when judging the actual meat content of this dog food."
> 
> 
> "The third ingredient is wheat. Like corn, wheat is an inexpensive and controversial cereal grain of only modest nutritional value to a dog.
> For this reason, we do not consider wheat a preferred component in any dog food."


----------



## hotel4dogs

you might want to research the effects of excessive vitamin A on the liver over time, since it's a fat soluable vitamin stored in the body.



Soontobedad said:


> No, because there is tons of *POSITIVE* reviews out there that out weigh
> the negative reviews by *A LOT*
> 
> I can't say the same for pro plan
> 
> you're acting as if all holistic brands are bad, and that acana will for sure 100% make my dog have stomach problems.
> 
> Like you said, each dog is different so instead of me finding a low tier product that works for my dog, i'm going to find a "premium" food product that works for my dog
> 
> I will also do this slowly, and *i will trust and respect my breeder *enough to keep my dog on royal canin for 2-4 months before switching over with canned pumpkin + acana, orijen, or some other brand.
> 
> 
> I would also like to say that i'm not trying to say that you do not know whats best for your dog just because you feed pro plan, i'm just saying i don't feel comfortable enough with the brand to feed my dog with it.


----------



## hotel4dogs

There is no such thing as "holistic" dog food. It's a great marketing ploy and a catchy word. I haven't found a food yet that addresses my dogs' psychological or spiritual needs. 

*holistic * (həʊˈlɪstɪk) http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html— *adj *1. of or relating to a doctrine of holism 2. of or relating to the the medical consideration of the complete person, physically and psychologically, in the treatment of a disease Holistic---incorporating the concept of holism

Holism---the treatment of any subject as a whole, integrated system...physically and psychologically, in the treatment of disease.

(source...world English dictionary)


----------



## Pointgold

Soontobedad said:


> No, because there is tons of *POSITIVE* reviews out there that out weigh
> the negative reviews by *A LOT*
> 
> I can't say the same for pro plan
> 
> you're acting as if all holistic brands are bad, and that acana will for sure 100% make my dog have stomach problems.
> 
> Like you said, each dog is different so instead of me finding a low tier product that works for my dog, i'm going to find a "premium" food product that works for my dog
> 
> I will also do this slowly, and *i will trust and respect my breeder *enough to keep my dog on royal canin for 2-4 months before switching over with canned pumpkin + acana, orijen, or some other brand.
> 
> 
> I would also like to say that i'm not trying to say that you do not know whats best for your dog just because you feed pro plan, i'm just saying i don't feel comfortable enough with the brand to feed my dog with it.


o

I have to believe that your reviews are from _very _limited sources - such as your original post regarding sites that rate foods using stars - they have an agenda, and will never offer acccurate or fair reviews of foods that do not fit their personal philosophy.
I am in no way saying that all holistic foods are "bad". Conversely, you are convinced that perfectly great products, which have years and years of real testing, and have been used sucessfully for years and years by top breeders/exhibitors/professionals, are "low tier" and not as good. 

You apparently have put a 2-4 month time limit on trust and respect. Because essentially you are saying that this breeder doesn't know as much as you, and doesn't know her dogs well enough, to feed them something as good as what you will. Royal Canin is certainly not a "low tier" food, and if I were the breeder I would find that to be really presumptuous if a puppy buyer told me that what I've fed successfully weren't good enough.
I hope that your puppy has no problems while you undergo your testing. It is a fact, though, that switching foods much more often than not _does _cause "stomach problems" as well as skin, coat, and possibly other issues.

I'd really like to know - how long have you had dogs, and how many different brands of food do you have experiences with?


----------



## sameli102

I have learned to put my trust in the breeders that have been breeding dogs for years. So many feed Purina Pro Plan. When I first got a pup I wanted to feed it the very best and I looked into all the choices. My dogs always got gross soft frequent stools and I couldn't see any difference in coats. Then you'd hear about recalls, sharp fish bones protruding form kibble and a multitude of other problems. I finally just ended up putting them on Pro Plan and quit searching for the dream food. They all look great, they are healthy, full of energy (often more than I'd like) they don't have bad breath, their stools are consistently small and firm, easy to pick up, and not foul smelling. They are happy and love their food, my husband is happy because I'm not paying $60-$70 for a 30lb bag of food, so I'm happy.
I will admit I don't know that much when it comes to dog nutrients but I do know that just feeding the Pro Plan Performance with 30% protein made a huge change in the dogs energy level, I'd be afraid to go any higher than that.


----------



## Soontobedad

Pointgold said:


> o
> 
> I have to believe that your reviews are from _very _limited sources - such as your original post regarding sites that rate foods using stars - they have an agenda, and will never offer acccurate or fair reviews of foods that do not fit their personal philosophy.
> I am in no way saying that all holistic foods are "bad". Conversely, you are convinced that perfectly great products, which have years and years of real testing, and have been used sucessfully for years and years by top breeders/exhibitors/professionals, are "low tier" and not as good.
> 
> You apparently have put a 2-4 month time limit on trust and respect. Because essentially you are saying that this breeder doesn't know as much as you, and doesn't know her dogs well enough, to feed them something as good as what you will. Royal Canin is certainly not a "low tier" food, and if I were the breeder I would find that to be really presumptuous if a puppy buyer told me that what I've fed successfully weren't good enough.
> I hope that your puppy has no problems while you undergo your testing. It is a fact, though, that switching foods much more often than not _does _cause "stomach problems" as well as skin, coat, and possibly other issues.
> 
> I'd really like to know - how long have you had dogs, and how many different brands of food do you have experiences with?



my reviews arent limited to dog food review sites

just because thats the only source i used in this thread, it doesnt mean thats the only site i looked at before coming to the conclusion.


Like i said before, BREEDERS are a lot different from CLIENTS that are just looking for a healthy pet with a good temperament 

- They have 10~ dogs, ill have 1.
- They compete in shows, i most likely won't
- They get sponsors and I won't


Most breeders that compete in shows might use these 3 star foods and do well *but that does not mean it was because of the food, you
're assuming that its just the food that causes dogs to do well in shows.
maintenance, health, genetics, bathing, grooming*, food doesn't mean as much as you think it means, and because of sponsors vast majority of them don't try many other brands. 


"large dog food companies will go to veterinarian schools to offer their services. Some vet students claim they have given them free samples, supplied food for their own pets, gave them large discounts, bought them notebooks, doughnuts, breakfast, text books, gave them jobs and even taught their nutrition classes. All to influence the young vet students that corn, by-products and other junk ingredients are OK for your pet to eat. When the vet opens up their own practice they offer the vet the chance to sell their foods, providing them with lots of free samples and literature to give out to their patients along with a rep that will answer any nutrition questions people might have. People see the foods inside the vet’s office and assume it must be good. These same companies put out articles claiming that corn and other junk ingredients are actually good for your pet."


*I can guarantee that i can get more positive reviews from customers for 5 star foods, than i can get for purina pro plan and the like.*

*and i can also guarantee that ill get less negative reviews from customers for 5 star foods, than ill get for purina pro plan and the like*


I don't see the point in arguing, its obvious you're not going to change your ways, and its obvious im not going to,

i'm offended that you implied that most breeders shouldnt pick me because i want to feed whats best for my dog.


----------



## Pointgold

Never mind... I just found my answer.
The OP is 17-18 years old, this is his first pet ever. It is very exciting, getting a new puppy, no matter how old you are. 

I would respectfully suggest that the OP very seriously take his own lack of experience vs his trusted breeder's years of experience when it comes to knowing what her dogs thrive on, and not allow biased reviews authored by persons with zero qualifications to sway you to mess with something as important as food, particularly during the critical first 24 months of her life.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

Pointgold said:


> Never mind... I just found my answer.
> The OP is 17-18 years old, this is his first pet ever. It is very exciting, getting a new puppy, no matter how old you are.
> 
> I would respectfully suggest that the OP very seriously take his own lack of experience vs his trusted breeder's years of experience when it comes to knowing what her dogs thrive on, and not allow biased reviews authored by persons with zero qualifications to sway you to mess with something as important as food, particularly during the critical first 24 months of her life.


I wish I could thank this post like 100 times.


----------



## Soontobedad

Pointgold said:


> Never mind... I just found my answer.
> The OP is 17-18 years old, this is his first pet ever. It is very exciting, getting a new puppy, no matter how old you are.
> 
> I would respectfully suggest that the OP very seriously take his own lack of experience vs his trusted breeder's years of experience when it comes to knowing what her dogs thrive on, and not allow biased reviews authored by persons with zero qualifications to sway you to mess with something as important as food, particularly during the critical first 24 months of her life.



I don't see your point, and its obvious you havent read my post above.
I also think its pathetic to bring my age into this.

I've already talked to my breeder, and she is fine with me switching to a brand im comfortable with after the first 3 months

I'm going to stop posting before this escalates any further.

Good luck.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Soontobedad said:


> I don't see your point, and its obvious you havent read my post above.
> I also think its pathetic to bring my age into this.
> 
> I've already talked to my breeder, and she is fine with me switching to a brand im comfortable with after the first 3 months
> 
> I'm going to stop posting before this escalates any further.
> 
> Good luck.


I'm sure you will find what works best with your puppy! Good luck!


----------



## Pointgold

Soontobedad said:


> my reviews arent limited to dog food review sites
> 
> just because thats the only source i used in this thread, it doesnt mean thats the only site i looked at before coming to the conclusion.
> 
> 
> Like i said before, BREEDERS are a lot different from CLIENTS that are just looking for a healthy pet with a good temperament
> 
> - They have 10~ dogs, ill have 1.
> - They compete in shows, i most likely won't
> - They get sponsors and I won't
> 
> 
> Most breeders that compete in shows might use these 3 star foods and do well *but that does not mean it was because of the food, you*
> *'re assuming that its just the food that causes dogs to do well in shows.*
> *maintenance, health, genetics, bathing, grooming*, food doesn't mean as much as you think it means, and because of sponsors vast majority of them don't try many other brands.
> 
> 
> "large dog food companies will go to veterinarian schools to offer their services. Some vet students claim they have given them free samples, supplied food for their own pets, gave them large discounts, bought them notebooks, doughnuts, breakfast, text books, gave them jobs and even taught their nutrition classes. All to influence the young vet students that corn, by-products and other junk ingredients are OK for your pet to eat. When the vet opens up their own practice they offer the vet the chance to sell their foods, providing them with lots of free samples and literature to give out to their patients along with a rep that will answer any nutrition questions people might have. People see the foods inside the vet’s office and assume it must be good. These same companies put out articles claiming that corn and other junk ingredients are actually good for your pet."
> 
> 
> *I can guarantee that i can get more positive reviews from customers for 5 star foods, than i can get for purina pro plan and the like.*
> 
> *and i can also guarantee that ill get less negative reviews from customers for 5 star foods, than ill get for purina pro plan and the like*
> 
> 
> I don't see the point in arguing, its obvious you're not going to change your ways, and its obvious im not going to,
> 
> i'm offended that you implied that most breeders shouldnt pick me because i want to feed whats best for my dog.


I never once suggested that any breeder shouldn't pick you because you want to feed what is best for your dog. As a breeder, I would be offended that anyone, particularly a first time pet owner, would think that _I_ am not feeding what is best for my dog. And by switching from that food, a puppy buyer is saying exactly that.

And I know the sources where you are getting your information. I've seen it all a million times.

dogfoodadvisor.com, dogfoodanalysis.com = they use stars/tiers in their "reviews". 
Your paragraph about corn? Corn in Dog Food. Really? And it is loaded with misinformation.

And there is tons more, all the same rhetoric.

You are sorely misinformed. BREEDERS _ARE _CLIENTS. And if you think we are not looking for healthy dogs with sound temperaments, you are very wrong. That is precisely why we make careful choices before making a breeding, do health clearances, make temperaments a priority, prove them by competing, and are informed consumers as regards selecting dog food.
I'm very aware of the importance of dog food, and also very aware that is takes more than "just" food to have a successful competition dog (no matter the venue). However, top dogs are NOT going to do well on "lower tier"/lesser quality/3-2-1 "star" foods. The fact that they ARE successful on Pro Plan is proof that it is NOT a lesser quality food. And I can tell you with certainty that those top dogs are not "sponsored" by the food company. Many people will include "We feed and recommend ______" in dog mag ads or on websites, but they are not being paid to do so. They might get a pic in a newsletter... big deal. 
Not all breeders or exhibitors have 10 dogs, either. I'd feed what I do whether I had 1 or 100 dogs. Some of the top dogs have $300k campaign budgets, so food price means little. They still choose Pro Plan. IT IS NOT ABOUT THE COST. It's about results.

Your "guarantee" about the number of reviews you can get? Pretty funny. Seriously? Don't bet on it. If I had the time or the inclination, in one day at a dog show I could get more positive reviews for ProPlan "and the like" than you could likely get in a week. 

I've been doing this for twice as long as you are old. And mentioning age is not "pathetic", it speaks to experience in this particular debate. And it is about experience, and results. Those of us who have been doing this for any length of time HAVE tried many brands over the many years we have been raising dogs. I venture to guess your breeder has, too. So we DO know what is best for our dogs. And frankly, even if it were one brand, that would be one brand more than you've tried, right? 

You ARE right, though, in that there is no point in arguing. I have two sons, and for sure when they were your age they knew FAR more than me, about pretty nearly everything, and did until they were 25 or so. 



Sooooo. Best of luck with your first puppy. It's a fun time. Enjoy.


----------



## MyBentley

Soontobedad said:


> we're waiting for a future litter, we placed a deposit yesterday and we're getting first pick!!!
> 
> their due date is on june the 7th.
> 
> i can't wait, today is supplies shopping day.
> 
> 
> as for the food, *my breeder says "I would really like to have the puppy fed Royal Canin for at least the first 6 months you have her because I know that it is properly balanced to meet the proper needs of a growing puppy. I get very concerned about some of the other foods because in this case both Orijen and Acana are very high protein (about 8-10% higher than Royal Canin). This is something that can lead to health problems in a dog long term."*
> 
> i trust her, but royal canin is pretty expensive, and i can get blue buff or something similar that doesnt have a lot of fillers for the same price.
> 
> what do you guys think?


The breeder may be a wonderful breeder and very reputable; but that doesn't make her an expert on dog nutrition in general. She has found a food that her dogs do well on in her eyes. But there are many foods on the market that are "properly balanced" for a puppy.

I, like you, believe you can find just as good (and IMO even better) of a kibble than Royal Canin at a better price. Most puppies should be able to handle a slow food transition after several weeks in their new home.


----------



## MyBentley

tippykayak said:


> Those star ratings are based entirely on a dog food philosophy held by the site's owners. If the food conforms to their philosophy, it gets more stars. If it doesn't, it gets fewer stars.
> 
> Those ratings have little to do with hard science and empirical data. For example, they make a lot of the difference between "chicken meal" and "chicken byproduct meal." The difference is that "byproduct" includes organ meat and ground bone, two great sources of nutrition. Chicken meal and chicken byproduct meal are two different ingredients, but one isn't necessarily superior to the other.
> 
> Personally, I'd rather feed according to results than according to philosophy. If a dog thrives on a food without grains, that's a result, and more power to those owners. Be aware that "grain free" often means that the starch is simply replaced with a non-grain starch, like potato or peas. I'm not sure why people believe potato is nutritionally superior to corn.
> 
> *Despite all the philosophy and hype, I don't know of a single all-meat kibble. Even the most expensive "5 star" foods use some kind of starch. That's because dogs wouldn't thrive on chicken-meat-only kibble.
> *
> Most dogs thrive just as well (and frequently better) on a food with a reasonable amount of corn as they do on a food with a reasonable amount of potato. There are so many myths and urban legends about dog food at this point that it's pretty easy to get lost in the difference between substantiated facts and philosophies that sound good but ultimately have little evidence supporting them.


I agree that nothing is inherently better about potatoes or peas compared to rice or another grain in dog food. The primary reason they exist in any kibble is because there needs to become some kind of carbohydrate to hold the kibble ingredients together - there needs to be a binder of some sort. The more meat protein in a kibble - the higher the cost. So a high percentage of the carbs in many kibbles are there to keep the cost down . . . not because a dog's system requires 35-50% carbs.


----------



## artbuc

PointGold, I do not doubt your extensive positive experience with Proplan. But I, as a lay dog owner (have had only 7 starting in 1979), am influenced by marketing and, unforunately, by a couple of not so good breeders. I see chicken listed as the first ingrediant so I assume on a dry basis that most of the protein is non-animal sourced. Then I see a no-named animal fat and animal digest which are supposed to be big red flags. All of my dogs except the current one were fed Euk. All had serious health issues and 5 died prematurely from various cancers. One boy died at two from osteosarcoma. He had a rich pedigree with a heavy Cowboy & Charlie component. When I told the breeder about his premature death, she said "what do you want me to do about it"? I certainly would not go by any food recommendation she made. I am not suggesting Euk had anything to do with my dogs' health problems. OTOH, I am driven to give my dog the best food possible. 

Should I not be concerned about the low animal protein content of Proplan? Should I not be concerned about unamed animal fat and animal digest? I am not debating the issue as I have no basis to debate. I only ask you to understand the plight of the average dog owner like myself. My experience with breeders has not been good and I am uncomfortable feeding any food just because they say so. I realize that this is offensive to you but that is not my intent. There are some truly outstanding breeders out there and no doubt you are one of them. Unfortunately, there are also many bad ones as well. WasChampionFan is highly critical of "smoke and mirrors" companies which are all marketing hype. I guess I have been taken in by that marketing to a large extent. For example, I am convinced that feeding my dog a high protein, meat based diet such as Orijen is better than feeding something like Proplan. Believe me when I tell you I am a major cheapskate so I would love to pocket the extra $$$ I am shelling out for Orijen, but I just can't convince myself to do it.


----------



## Pointgold

artbuc said:


> PointGold, I do not doubt your extensive positive experience with Proplan. But I, as a lay dog owner (have had only 7 starting in 1979), am influenced by marketing and, unforunately, by a couple of not so good breeders. I see chicken listed as the first ingrediant so I assume on a dry basis that most of the protein is non-animal sourced. Then I see a no-named animal fat and animal digest which are supposed to be big red flags. All of my dogs except the current one were fed Euk. All had serious health issues and 5 died prematurely from various cancers. One boy died at two from osteosarcoma. He had a rich pedigree with a heavy Cowboy & Charlie component. When I told the breeder about his premature death, she said "what do you want me to do about it"? I certainly would not go by any food recommendation she made. I am not suggesting Euk had anything to do with my dogs' health problems. OTOH, I am driven to give my dog the best food possible.
> 
> Should I not be concerned about the low animal protein content of Proplan? Should I not be concerned about unamed animal fat and animal digest? I am not debating the issue as I have no basis to debate. I only ask you to understand the plight of the average dog owner like myself. My experience with breeders has not been good and I am uncomfortable feeding any food just because they say so. I realize that this is offensive to you but that is not my intent. There are some truly outstanding breeders out there and no doubt you are one of them. Unfortunately, there are also many bad ones as well. WasChampionFan is highly critical of "smoke and mirrors" companies which are all marketing hype. I guess I have been taken in by that marketing to a large extent. For example, I am convinced that feeding my dog a high protein, meat based diet such as Orijen is better than feeding something like Proplan. Believe me when I tell you I am a major cheapskate so I would love to pocket the extra $$$ I am shelling out for Orijen, but I just can't convince myself to do it.


First, I am sorry about your losses, and also that you have had bad breeder experiences. That is just not right. I would suggest that the cancers might likely be related to pedigrees, given the Charlie/Cowboy component, although there is not yet concrete proof as to genetic predisposition to cancers. 
As for food, all I can tell you is that I have never fed a food that I have been as consistently pleased with the results as I have with Pro Plan. I've debated the marketing hype til I am blue in the face, and frankly, I'm beyond tired of doing so. I don't believe that animal fat and digest are "big red flags". I do not believe that corn or grain is the root of all evils in dog foods. When I have dogs with beautiful, shiny coats and healthy skin, excellent muscle tone, incredible stamina, consistently good (and minimal) stools, needing only the minimum of routine veterinary care, and who are outliving littermates fed something else by several years and are active, _healthy _geriatrics, all I can say is the food is working. When I did switch, to one of the "top tier" "5 star" foods, it was fine for about 6 months or so, and then went to hell. I went back to Pro Plan and won't look back. Every dog that I have switched to it has improved in the areas I mentioned. And every dog enthusiastically eats it, ALWAYS. 

As always, feed your dog what he does best on.


----------



## Loisiana

I show my dogs (in obedience). Please tell me how to get one of these sponsors to pay my dog food bill. :wave:


----------



## desi.n.nutro

hotel4dogs said:


> There is no such thing as "holistic" dog food. It's a great marketing ploy and a catchy word. I haven't found a food yet that addresses my dogs' psychological or spiritual needs.
> 
> *holistic * (həʊˈlɪstɪk) — *adj *1. of or relating to a doctrine of holism 2. of or relating to the the medical consideration of the complete person, physically and psychologically, in the treatment of a disease Holistic---incorporating the concept of holism
> 
> Holism---the treatment of any subject as a whole, integrated system...physically and psychologically, in the treatment of disease.
> 
> (source...world English dictionary)


LOL-Although I only somewhat agree! Isn't a healthy pet a happy pet? In our house, our favorite saying was, "If Mom ain't happy, no one is happy." After a very serious run of the runs....we changed it to, "If Maggie ain't happy...this house stinks.":doh:


----------



## MyBentley

Pointgold said:


> Are you aware of the problems that can occur when "testing" various other brands?
> 
> For me, as a breeder, I sure don't like to think that any of my puppies will be guinea pigs for testing different brands, and having to suffer the diarrhea, skin issues, etc, that very often go along with these experiments. If someone trusts me enough to buy a dog from me, I'd sure hope that they'd trust me to know what food my dogs do best on.


I'm confused. Are you saying that feeding one of your puppies any other brand than ProPlan will cause serious diarrhea, skin issues, etc.?

Are you saying that feeding one of your puppies any other brand than ProPlan is "experimenting" even if it's a kibble that's been around forever like Eukanuba?

This is a curious thread. We have many posters saying a new puppy owner should continue feeding what the breeder feeds because they know their dogs best. We've seen a variety of "best" breeder foods mentioned: Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Iams, ProPlan and more. So, it leads me to conclude that golden retrievers can thrive on a number of different brands of kibble.

If a breeder seriously thinks her/his puppies won't thrive on any food but the one they feed, it leads me to conclude that either they are incorrect in their belief OR they have produced a line of dogs over generations that are largely incapable of adapting to anything that isn't the exact set of ingredients and nutrient analysis as the breeder's chosen food. 

I hope the reality is that breeders simply each have their "favorite" kibble; because I sure hate to think that lots of pure bred dogs have had the ability to adapt to a variety of foods bred out of them.


----------



## Maddie'sMom2011

We've fed Maddie Orijen for a little over a year. She's healthy, happy & beautiful. I say, to each his/her own.


----------



## Pointgold

MyBentley said:


> I'm confused. Are you saying that feeding one of your puppies any other brand than ProPlan will cause serious diarrhea, skin issues, etc.?
> 
> Are you saying that feeding one of your puppies any other brand than ProPlan is "experimenting" even if it's a kibble that's been around forever like Eukanuba?
> 
> This is a curious thread. We have many posters saying a new puppy owner should continue feeding what the breeder feeds because they know their dogs best. We've seen a variety of "best" breeder foods mentioned: Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Iams, ProPlan and more. So, it leads me to conclude that golden retrievers can thrive on a number of different brands of kibble.
> 
> If a breeder seriously thinks her/his puppies won't thrive on any food but the one they feed, it leads me to conclude that either they are incorrect in their belief OR they have produced a line of dogs over generations that are largely incapable of adapting to anything that isn't the exact set of ingredients and nutrient analysis as the breeder's chosen food.
> 
> I hope the reality is that breeders simply each have their "favorite" kibble; because I sure hate to think that lots of pure bred dogs have had the ability to adapt to a variety of foods bred out of them.


I am simply saying that I know what food my dogs do best on. I have tried other foods, with disastrous results. It's not at all that ProPlan is my "favorite", it is that it has been the best for my dogs. And not just my Goldens. 

Perhaps different people have a different definition of "thrive". I don't know. But I know how I want my dogs to look, I know what I want as regards their health and longevity. And I know that I get that with Pro Plan. If I got it with road gravel I'd say so. Feed what your dog does best on. If you buy a dog from me, I know it's Pro Plan. Iams, Eukanuba, Royal Canin are all good products, and pretty equal in quality and price. They are all also considered "lesser quality" by the rating sites frequently cited here as being THE definitive dog food advisors. 

Messing around with/switching foods frequently can, and usually does, cause problems - temporary or otherwise. Why put a puppy through it. And I'm not just referring to switching from ProPlan.


----------



## Megora

FWIW... my guy's breeder fed the puppies some weird expensive special order food and requested that I keep Jacks on that food for a little while so that there were no tummy issues and wean him over slowly. 

We didn't wean Jacks over completely to the puppy food of my choice until he was 5 months old. And he was our first puppy who had zero digestive issues. 

There's nothing worse than dealing with a puppy with diarrhea problems while you are trying to potty train. I wouldn't play around with the dog food those first few months for that reason.


----------



## Swampcollie

The first time dog owner is often mis-informed because of misleading information provided on the so called rating sites. As mentioned earlier in this thread the rating sites are more about philosophy than nutrition. 


The highly rated foods are certainly “different” than foods that contain grains like corn and sorghum, but being different does NOT necessarily mean better, and that is where the new dog owner is really being taken advantage of. 


You can spend a small fortune for some of the designer foods but they are NOT nutritionally superior products. Yes, they ARE different but they're not in any way proven to be a superior diet for a normal healthy dog. 


Products like Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Iams or even Science Diet have long term (life long) feeding trials behind them and decade after decade of real life results from feeding experiences by pet owners, breeders, trainers and Veterinarians. The designer foods don't. 


The lesson to learn is that “different” doesn't equate to “better” for most normal healthy dogs. 


The boutique foods have the highest prices and the greatest profit margins. Remember that when the sales clerk at the pet food store tries to sell you a product.


----------



## MyBentley

Pointgold said:


> I am simply saying that I know what food my dogs do best on. I have tried other foods, with disastrous results. It's not at all that ProPlan is my "favorite", it is that it has been the best for my dogs. And not just my Goldens.
> 
> Perhaps different people have a different definition of "thrive". I don't know. But I know how I want my dogs to look, I know what I want as regards their health and longevity. And I know that I get that with Pro Plan. If I got it with road gravel I'd say so. Feed what your dog does best on. If you buy a dog from me, I know it's Pro Plan. Iams, Eukanuba, Royal Canin are all good products, and pretty equal in quality and price. They are all also considered "lesser quality" by the rating sites frequently cited here as being THE definitive dog food advisors.
> 
> Messing around with/switching foods frequently can, and usually does, cause problems - temporary or otherwise. Why put a puppy through it. And I'm not just referring to switching from ProPlan.


Okay . . . so you say Pro Plan is not your "favorite", but what you've found your dogs do best on. Given that, do you think that you and some other breeders have to some degree bred out of your dogs the ability to adapt and do well on any other foods?

It seems like you're saying that there are lines of dogs that will only do well on Eukanuba; and other lines of dogs that will only do well on Pro Plan or Royal Canin, etc. So, in essence, we have all these different breeders that have created lines of dogs that only do really well on one specific kibble. I find that disturbing and unnatural.

In none of my posts in this thread have I entered the discussion about dog food web sites - that's not my focus at all.


----------



## MyBentley

Swampcollie said:


> The first time dog owner is often mis-informed because of misleading information provided on the so called rating sites. As mentioned earlier in this thread the rating sites are more about philosophy than nutrition.
> 
> 
> The highly rated foods are certainly “different” than foods that contain grains like corn and sorghum, but being different does NOT necessarily mean better, and that is where the new dog owner is really being taken advantage of.
> 
> 
> You can spend a small fortune for some of the designer foods but they are NOT nutritionally superior products. Yes, they ARE different but they're not in any way proven to be a superior diet for a normal healthy dog.
> 
> 
> Products like Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Iams or even Science Diet have long term (life long) feeding trials behind them and decade after decade of real life results from feeding experiences by pet owners, breeders, trainers and Veterinarians. The designer foods don't.
> 
> 
> The lesson to learn is that “different” doesn't equate to “better” for most normal healthy dogs.
> 
> 
> The boutique foods have the highest prices and the greatest profit margins. Remember that when the sales clerk at the pet food store tries to sell you a product.


While I agree that savvy marketing of kibbles can unduly sway some consumers, I think you're painting the food choices with too broad of a brush stroke.

Not every kibble that has been around a long time that contains corn is great: some are and some aren't. Annamaet equals good while Beneful equals bad in my book.

By the same token, not every newer food that doesn't contain corn or wheat and has been around maybe 8 - 10 years is bad.


----------



## hvgoldens4

Soontobedad said:


> Purina might work well for dogs, but how would breeders know if purina is the best if they havent given a fair amount of premium brands dog food a try?
> 
> Would you go as far as to say Purina is better than orijen / acana?
> 
> 
> 
> This breeder has tried those foods and many others. My dogs actually did TERRIBLE on Origen and wouldn't touch Acana or Wellness. I have also tried Canidae and Blue Buffalo. I have always gone back to Purina ProPlan Performance. The dogs had cow patties for stools on Blue Buffalo and were skinny and had lost muscle tone and coat on Canidae.
> 
> Lets have some history. Dog food companies have been around for about 60-70 years. Before that, dogs were fed table scraps. With the health craze that has come about with people, people wanted a "healthier" dog food for Fido. The dog food companies responded with grain free dog foods that were supposed to be more biologically correct and better for the dogs.
> 
> All dog foods have to meet guidelines that are determined by the AAFCO-American Association of Feed Control Office.
> 
> As Brian had said in his post, there is not science at this point to back up the claims that dogs will be healthier on a grain free food. I actually had to double the amount of food I was feeding in an attempt to keep weight on my dogs when feeding the grain free foods. These dog foods are relatively new to the market and so there are not longevity statistics to back up their claims that dogs will be healthier on these dog foods. I will not feed something that costs $70 a bag when my dogs don't want to eat it.
> 
> I own a 15.5 year old golden, 2 13 year old goldens, a 12 year old golden and 2 11 year old goldens. How much healthier would you like a dog to be?? These dogs have eaten ProPlan almost their entire lives.
> 
> I do not get a price break on buying dog food. I buy my dog food from PetSmart just like so many other people do.
> 
> When feeding Origen, my 15.5 year old stopped eating-I was heartsick as that is never a good sign when a golden won't eat. However, it wasn't due to a health issue, it was due to the fact that she didn't like the food. We put a cup of ProPlan in her bowl and she promptly ate it up and has been eating ever since.
> 
> I also like the fact that Purina sponsers a lot of dog events-meaning they give back to the sport. They have a huge complex at their headquarters that was built specifically for dog events to be held there. The National Specialty in the US is actually being held again this year at Purina Farms.
> 
> I also like the fact that they give back MONEY-meaning they put their money where their mouth is to our breed with money given to the GRCA for cancer research and other research to help our dogs. They also support the AKC's canine health foundation. Golden Retriever Club of America - The GRCA Club So, I like the fact that the company that I am giving my money to is giving some money back to help the dogs. How many other dog food companies partner with the parent clubs of almost every breed to do that??
> 
> Also, the big box foods-Purina, Iams/Eukanuba and Royal Canin have their own manufacturing plants. They also haven't been involved in recalls. I do not think this is a coincidence. They own the plant, they have better control over what is happening during the manufacturing process. A lot of these smaller companies outsource the manufacture of their food and so are at the mercy of another company for the control of their product. I know that the companies are saying that dogs have not gotten sick with the latest recalls. That is not the case. There are people who have fed TOTW who had dogs get sick and TOTW paid their vet bills. A very close friend fed this to her dogs and has a litter of 3 week old puppies. Mom was doing fine but the babies had the runs and the vet couldn't find a reason. She finally switched food and in less than 2 days, stools were normal.
> 
> Lastly, most of these dog food advisor websites do have an affiliation with certain dog food companies, if you read the small print or they are one person's opinion.
> 
> I listen to my dogs-they do well, they eat well, have beautiful coats and are healthy on Purina Pro Plan so that is where my money will go. As they say, the proof is in the pudding and my own dogs have done wonderfully on this food.
> 
> Jennifer
> Harborview Goldens


----------



## Pointgold

MyBentley said:


> Okay . . . so you say Pro Plan is not your "favorite", but what you've found your dogs do best on. Given that, do you think that you and some other breeders have to some degree bred out of your dogs the ability to adapt and do well on any other foods?
> 
> It seems like you're saying that there are lines of dogs that will only do well on Eukanuba; and other lines of dogs that will only do well on Pro Plan or Royal Canin, etc. So, in essence, we have all these different breeders that have created line s of dogs that only do really well on one specific kibble. I find that disturbing and unnatural.
> 
> In none of my posts in this thread have I entered the discussion about dog food web sites - that's not my focus at all.


No. That is not what I am saying. Obviously not, as I said not just Goldens. Also the Pointers, and the Collies, Daniela's Lab and her mixed breed, too. And I don't have a "line"...my dogs all have, over the years, had very diverse pedigrees. This is real simple. I think people want to make it far more complicated than it is. I get what I want/need for 
my dogs when they are fed ProPlan. It's not rocket science. They are at their best on Pro Plan. THEY like it. They never turn their noses up at it. They "thrive" on it. They have not
done as well, and/or had problems, on other foods that have been touted as being far superior. Make of it what you will. I'll just feed it to my dogs and enjoy how healthy and happy they are, and any successes they have. I don't need to over analyze it. The results are what matters to me and that it apparently tastes great to them.


----------



## JazzSkye

I've just scanned the responses, and there's no way I'm getting into the discussion on whether a dog's ability to thrive on a certain food is "bred in or out" of him because there's no way to prove that either way. 

Both Jazz and Skye's breeders here use and swear by ProPlan--have for years--and from their results I can see why they would stick with it. So to me, any "three-star, "five-star", "million-star" rating has to be taken with a grain of salt, and put into individual perspective. 

Unfortunately, Jazz started refusing his food about 6 months after I brought him home; he began to have skin problems, liquid stools, vomiting...and then he refused the food altogether. He was wormed, checked out by the vet, given skin treatments.

The breeder told me not to give in, that he'd eat when he was hungry. To maintain my feeding schedule and to give him nothing in between. He grew very thin, because he'd limit himself to a few mouthfuls. When I see pictures now, I'm ashamed I listened as long as I did. 

The vet said "change the food". From there it was a year-long spiral downwards, because Jazz simply refused every kibble I would offer. He'd eat the bare minimum and headbutt his bowl. Another friend of mine--also a breeder--watched Jazz eat with the other Goldens after an outing. We put all 6 bowls down and five dogs started gulping. Jazz sniffed his bowl, growled, and flipped it over, then lay down and watched as the other dogs ate his share. She told me that in her 15 years of breeding, she'd seen stubborn and picky eaters, but this took the cake. He was definitely hungry, yet he let his share be eaten by the other dogs.

In desperation, I went to BARF. That worked very well for 2 years. He filled out, wolfed down his bowl, his skin cleared up. But it was so much more work than putting down a bowl of kibble, and I was working full-time. Plus, getting the balance of vitamins and minerals, etc right was a constant struggle for me. I probably wasn't giving him all the nutrients he should have had.

A friend suggested Orijen, and gave me a sample from her bag. Without much conviction, I put it down in front of Jazz and to my amazement he emptied the bown in 15 seconds. I looked into the composition, wondering if they put coke in it. I liked what I saw and bought a bag, thinking he was likely going to get tired of it and stop eating it.

He still loves it and thrives on it, which is why I'm sticking with it, and why I switched Skye from her breeder's ProPlan to Orijen. She does just as well on it as Jazz. The composition of the kibble is in line with what I find to be sound nutritional principles--and as a moderately intelligent person having investigated the available research, I think my conclusions are as defendable as the next person's. But there are so many diverging opinions out there that I think it's up to everyone to do their own footwork, make as an informed choice as possible, and then to stick with what works for your own dog.


----------



## oakleysmommy

The word "holistic" hmmmm! a few posts up was the definition of holistic...I fell into the "holistic" trap as well. I refuse to buy any kibble that says that on the bag anylonger. It caused nothing but issues. There is no such thing. I also fell into the "high protein" if you sit back and look at the big picture its all gimmicks and marketing. Then you have "grain free" fell into that too. all with horrendous results mostly weight loss and muscle tone loss. Some dogs do well on it, but after being on here for quite some time and being obsessed with nutrition i realize the "lower end" foods are the majority. I dont even look at the dog food advisory anylonger. and i do not feed ProPlan,Eukanuba or the like, but i do feed a mid range food. Who says the 5 star foods are the best? because they have organic things in it? dried cranberries, apples, etc etc?? As far as breeders go, hey they have been doing this forever. maybe they do feed ProPlan because they have many dogs to feed, but maybe they feed it because their dogs grow evenly on it and have great results with it. My dane breeder has tried the "better" foods and saw no difference. She actually tried one and one of her puppies developed HOD. ProPlan Euk has been around forever with decades of feed trials, we cant say the same for these new glamour foods can we?? Every time i go to buy a bag of dog food i always look at ProPlan wondering if i shouldve just stayed with it. I will definately go back to it should an issue arise with one of my dogs. I still have issues with my danes poo every so often, he is 10 lbs lighter than his littermates who are all on ProPlan(not that that means anything they all grow differently) but like my breeder says" i know what works for my lines i have been doing this over 30 years" The only thing keeping me from ProPlan is i am scared of the recalls they have had. So i found a food similar to it mid range with no recalls..i think all new dog owners are just looking out for the best for their puppies..but reality is look right in front of you at your breeder who we should trust from the start, we tend to forget that


----------



## hotel4dogs

Strange, there hasn't been ONE in the 15+ years I've been feeding it....


----------



## oakleysmommy

hotel4dogs said:


> Strange, there hasn't been ONE in the 15+ years I've been feeding it....


I thought there was a recall quite a few years back? thought it was Purina?


----------



## hvgoldens4

I don't think anyone is saying that if your dog food is working for your dog that you should change it. If your dog is healthy, happy, has good skin and coat on that dog food, you stick with it. Most people on the forum have 1 or 2 dogs that they are feeding. That is not true of breeders. We have a lot of dogs we are feeding and they vary in age. Our own dogs vary in age from 4 mos old to 15.5 years old. So, I see how the dogs are doing at different age and states of maturity. I can't have 10 different kinds of food. I need something that all my dogs will do well on. I also need something that will have my puppies growing evenly for their bone health.

I have 5 generations of dogs that I have raised living in my home. Obviously, because I breed, I do clearances on all the dogs in our home. The clearances, health and longevity along with even growth, good support for healthy skin and muscle and coat are the reasons I feed what I do.

For those of you that like the convenience, price point and consistancy offered with the big box foods(easy to pick up and no recalls), Purina and Eukanuba do make a food without corn, wheat or soy. I am not sure what Eukanuba calls theirs but ProPlan calls theirs ProPlan Selects. There are a variety of different protein sources available-beef, chicken and fish. Some of our families who have our dogs feed this food and the dogs do great on it, as well.

There are lots of different alternatives out there. All of them have the potential for the dogs to do well on them because all of them must meet the AAFCO standards. Bottom line-do what works for the dog.


----------



## hotel4dogs

No, ProPlan is one of few foods that hasn't been recalled. I even did a google search and couldn't find any record of any recalls for Pro Plan.



oakleysmommy said:


> I thought there was a recall quite a few years back? thought it was Purina?


----------



## Loisiana

Wish I could feed a simple inexpensive kibble. But 2 out of 3 of my dogs get icky ears on those foods. Not to mention one of my dog's is allergic to ingredients in 98% of the kibble formulas out there.


----------



## Swampcollie

MyBentley said:


> By the same token, not every newer food that doesn't contain corn or wheat and has been around maybe 8 - 10 years is bad.


I didn't say they were bad. I said they wre different and not necessarily better. 
Any nitwit can go out in their garage and mix up a batch of dog food that conforms to the AAFCO nutrient profile and hang a for sale sign on it, but have they actually fed the stuff to real dogs for an extended time, lets say 10 to 15 years with successful results? No they have not. Their customers' dogs that eat their foods are their test subjects i.e. lab rats. 

In my book they are unproven. My dogs and the other dogs I feed are not lab rats. I want to select and feed products produced by manufacturers with a long proven history of successful superior results.


----------



## oakleysmommy

hotel4dogs said:


> No, ProPlan is one of few foods that hasn't been recalled. I even did a google search and couldn't find any record of any recalls for Pro Plan.


And all this time i was thinking they did have one:doh:....thanks for telling me that or i wouldve always thought they did.


----------



## MyBentley

Pointgold said:


> No. That is not what I am saying. Obviously not, as I said not just Goldens. Also the Pointers, and the Collies, Daniela's Lab and her mixed breed, too. And I don't have a "line"...my dogs all have, over the years, had very diverse pedigrees. This is real simple. I think people want to make it far more complicated than it is. I get what I want/need for
> my dogs when they are fed ProPlan. It's not rocket science. They are at their best on Pro Plan. THEY like it. They never turn their noses up at it. They "thrive" on it. They have not
> done as well, and/or had problems, on other foods that have been touted as being far superior. Make of it what you will. I'll just feed it to my dogs and enjoy how healthy and happy they are, and any successes they have. I don't need to over analyze it. The results are what matters to me and that it apparently tastes great to them.


I guess I haven't done a very effective job in communicating my focus.

My curiosity and questions would be the same whether you fed Pro Plan, Orijen, NutriSource, Eukanuba or Fromms. The exact brand you feed doesn't really matter to me . . . personal choice.

I'm just somewhat baffled that a breeder might think that the dogs (whatever breed) she breeds can only thrive on one specific brand - no matter what that brand might be. Are breeders believing that their litters won't thrive if the new puppy parent feeds a different brand when the puppy turns, let's say, 5 months old?


----------



## MyBentley

Swampcollie said:


> I didn't say they were bad. I said they wre different and not necessarily better.
> Any nitwit can go out in their garage and mix up a batch of dog food that conforms to the AAFCO nutrient profile and hang a for sale sign on it, but have they actually fed the stuff to real dogs for an extended time, lets say 10 to 15 years with successful results? No they have not. Their customers' dogs that eat their foods are their test subjects i.e. lab rats.
> 
> In my book they are unproven. My dogs and the other dogs I feed are not lab rats. I want to select and feed products produced by manufacturers with a long proven history of successful superior results.


I agree that there are certainly some brands that seem to create formulas from the corporate desk and then hire a large manufacturing plant to produce them. Nutrisca comes to mind as one - headquartered in Beverly Hills, I believe.

But I find it hard to believe that the big players like Purina or Hills or the like actually tested their new formulas (way back in the day) for as long as 10 - 15 years before they first went on the market. I highly doubt it. At one point in time, they were the new guys on the block.

I think there are some good examples of companies taking a middle ground. . . companies like NutriSource and Fromm that create and produce their own foods from beginning to end. Or a company like Annamaet that has used its food for years, especially with sled dogs, that has their formulas manufactured by Ohio Pet Foods which has never had a recall.


----------



## Pointgold

MyBentley said:


> I guess I haven't done a very effective job in communicating my focus.
> 
> My curiosity and questions would be the same whether you fed Pro Plan, Orijen, NutriSource, Eukanuba or Fromms. The exact brand you feed doesn't really matter to me . . . personal choice.
> 
> I'm just somewhat baffled that a breeder might think that the dogs (whatever breed) she breeds can only thrive on one specific brand - no matter what that brand might be. Are breeders believing that their litters won't thrive if the new puppy parent feeds a different brand when the puppy turns, let's say, 5 months old?


 
I don't think anyone has ever said that their dogs ONLY thrive on one specific brand. We've said that they do their BEST on a particular food. Like I said, people may have a different idea as to what "thrive" means to them. People thought my dogs looked great when on brands ____,____, and _____. So did I. Then, when I switched to Pro Plan, people went "WOW! Your dogs look GREAT! What are you doing different?" And I could see that they looked even better, had better stools, better even better skin and coat, and they gobbled it up enthusiastically EVERY TIME. SO, I recommend that food, knowing that my dogs DO BEST on it. I WANT my puppies to do their best. It seems so simple, I just don't see what there is not to understand.


----------



## oakleysmommy

i dont think she means the dog wont thrive i think she is saying the food she feeds has worked for her for 20 plus years as well as most breeders out there. Lets face it almost every breeder feeds ProPlan/Eukanuba with amazing dogs its got to tell you something! From my own personal experience: my dane breeder has sent me pics of my pups littermates, they are rock solid, great muscle tone. My pup who is not on PP does not have the muscle tone his littermates have. Could be he is growing slower as each dog in a litter is different...does it make me wonder though it sure does! and now that i just found out PP has never had any recalls it makes me wonder even more!


----------



## Vhuynh2

MyBentley said:


> I'm just somewhat baffled that a breeder might think that the dogs (whatever breed) she breeds can only thrive on one specific brand - no matter what that brand might be. Are breeders believing that their litters won't thrive if the new puppy parent feeds a different brand when the puppy turns, let's say, 5 months old?


I don't think anyone said that their dogs wouldn't thrive on anything else. It's just that the puppy could possibly be in for various ailments like diarrhea and skin conditions when trying to find a new food that also works. It isn't fair for the puppy, especially when they were doing fine on their food.


----------



## 3 goldens

I went grain free for Honey aftet the removal of a mat cell tumor fromher leg 3 yeas ago this month.

Growing up, all our hunting dogs were on plain old Purina Dog Chow and with few exceptions lived a long life, hunting into old age. And for years, mine were on just plain old Purina Dog Chow. I was told on the old i-dog board that our dogs could not have been "well developed and toned, nor had nice coats. I posted pictures of one of our pointers (only picture I had that showed his muscles) and one of my Irirsh Setter with his coat so shiney it could knock your eyes out. The ones telling me I didn't know anything did not respond to the pcitures--those who also used Purina or other "worhtless feeds" did. 

I does depend on the dog. Honey did just great on Purina when we first got her and then I went from the plain chow to the ProPlan. Now as I said, grainless bcaue of her MCT.

I cant tell you this for sure, on grainless her poops are much much smaller, in fact kind of hard to find. But her caots i the same, muscle tone is the same, etc.

Right now she is on mixture of Tate of theWild and "science death" as the nayers on the old i-dog board called it, as she is just coming off a kindney problme.

I won't say dogs do need grains, I won't say they don't. I just know some dogs have trouble with them, usually corn I believe.


----------



## MyBentley

Vhuynh2 said:


> I don't think anyone said that their dogs wouldn't thrive on anything else. It's just that the puppy could possibly be in for various ailments like diarrhea and skin conditions when trying to find a new food that also works. It isn't fair for the puppy, especially when they were doing fine on their food.


Are you saying that one should feed what the breeder fed for life; or just while it's a puppy?


----------



## MyBentley

hotel4dogs said:


> No, ProPlan is one of few foods that hasn't been recalled. I even did a google search and couldn't find any record of any recalls for Pro Plan.


We can also add NutriSource and Fromm kibble to the list of kibbles with no recall.


----------



## MyBentley

Pointgold said:


> I don't think anyone has ever said that their dogs ONLY thrive on one specific brand. We've said that they do their BEST on a particular food. Like I said, people may have a different idea as to what "thrive" means to them. People thought my dogs looked great when on brands ____,____, and _____. So did I. Then, when I switched to Pro Plan, people went "WOW! Your dogs look GREAT! What are you doing different?" And I could see that they looked even better, had better stools, better even better skin and coat, and they gobbled it up enthusiastically EVERY TIME. SO, I recommend that food, knowing that my dogs DO BEST on it. I WANT my puppies to do their best. It seems so simple,* I just don't see what there is not to understand.*




Sorry if I misunderstood you. There just seemed to be so many comments by posters that stressed not changing brands from what the breeder feeds and warnings of dire consequences if they do. That inflexibility didn't seem logical or entirely necessary IMO. But the world would be a dull place if we were all on the same page about everything.


----------



## oakleysmommy

and Precise which is what i feed....i only asked about ProPlan as i probably wouldve stayed on it but i thought they had a huge recall a few years back, come to find out they never did


----------



## Vhuynh2

MyBentley said:


> Are you saying that one should feed what the breeder fed for life; or just while it's a puppy?


I'm not saying that anyone should do anything. I'm just summarizing what I got from this thread since it seems like you may have missed the answer to your question. I don't have a problem with anyone trying to find another food that their dog would do well on. I just wouldn't want myself or my puppy to go through the horrors I've heard and read about. Like others have said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If nothing happens and your dog transitions perfectly.. Then great. We should be able to feed our dogs whatever food we want. However, I'm not going to dismiss right away the food my breeder chooses to feed, because it isn't 5 stars. Like I said, I trust my breeder.


----------



## oakleysmommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> I'm not saying that anyone should do anything. I'm just summarizing what I got from this thread since it seems like you may have missed the answer to your question. I don't have a problem with anyone trying to find another food that their dog would do well on. I just wouldn't want myself or my puppy to go through the horrors I've heard and read about. Like others have said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If nothing happens and your dog transitions perfectly.. Then great. We should be able to feed our dogs whatever food we want. However, I'm not going to dismiss right away the food my breeder chooses to feed, because it isn't 5 stars. Like I said, I trust my breeder.


OH my Molly is sooo adorable, i love the light color she is


----------



## Pointgold

MyBentley said:


> [/B]
> 
> Sorry if I misunderstood you. There just seemed to be so many comments by posters that stressed not changing brands from what the breeder feeds and warnings of dire consequences if they do. That inflexibility didn't seem logical or entirely necessary IMO. But the world would be a dull place if we were all on the same page about everything.


"Dire consequences"? Missed that part. I do warn against frequently changing foods no matter WHAT the food, because more often that not, there is diarrhea, skin and coat changes, etc. Why risk putting a dog through that, especially a puppy, when they are doing fine on a particular food? And especially when the reason is because of some website's ill-informed rating system?
And I simply do not understand why pet owners trust a breeder enough to buy a puppy from them but not to follow their feeding recommendation, _especially _when they are novice or first time pet owners. 

I've said it a bazillion times - "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Often, the "fixing" ends up "breaking"...


----------



## Vhuynh2

oakleysmommy said:


> OH my Molly is sooo adorable, i love the light color she is


Aww thank you the photo is a little deceptive though; she's a bit darker than that. People have asked if she's "English cream". :uhoh: But she isn't _that_ light.


----------



## JazzSkye

Vhuynh2 said:


> People have asked if she's "English cream". :uhoh:


 :--keep_silent::--keep_silent:

She's absolutely lovely, whatever her type.


----------



## Vhuynh2

JazzSkye said:


> :--keep_silent::--keep_silent:
> 
> She's absolutely lovely, whatever her type.


I was just concerned about their use of that term, that's all  all colors are beautiful


----------



## JazzSkye

Vhuynh2 said:


> I was just concerned about their use of that term, that's all  all colors are beautiful


The term don't bother ME none...and I agree. :agree:


----------



## hotel4dogs

Molly is adorable! But I don't think she'll stay light. They typically end up one shade darker than their ears.


----------



## Vhuynh2

hotel4dogs said:


> Molly is adorable! But I don't think she'll stay light. They typically end up one shade darker than their ears.


Wow, I guess she'll end up pretty dark! Her butt feathers are coming in almost white.. what a contrast!


----------



## MyBentley

In looking back at this long thread, I guess we should be glad that there are many breeders available that represent diverse perspectives on feeding dogs.

There are breeders very tied to feeding one specific brand and highly recommend that new puppy owners continue with it indefinitely. I know of breeders in this category who feed Eukanuba, Pro Plan, Orijen, Canidae and Kirkland, etc.

There are breeders who feed and prefer one brand but will also share information about other brands/formulas that they think well of if you want to consider changing once the puppy is well-settled into its new home.

And there is starting to be a growing number of breeders who are feeding raw and promoting it to their new puppy parents.

Some breeders are flexible; others not so much. So besides checking out all the health clearances, the home, the contract, etc; it would be wise to have discussions about feeding also to see if you and the potential breeder are a good match.


----------



## oakleysmommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> Wow, I guess she'll end up pretty dark! Her butt feathers are coming in almost white.. what a contrast!


She is the cutest whatever color she turns out to be, but yes the tips of her ears is usually the color they will be..Actually i am looking at Oakley and Zoe right now and their ears are darker than the rest of them?? LOL my dogs are backwards.. they also have white "butt feathers" i call them their "pants"


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

JazzSkye said:


> :--keep_silent::--keep_silent:
> 
> She's absolutely lovely, whatever her *type.*


"Style":uhoh: *side note* j/k


----------



## JazzSkye

Wyatt's mommy said:


> "Style":uhoh: *side note* j/k


Hey, I was being *subtle*...you had to come in and put it up there in lights, didn't ya? Sheesh....:doh:


----------



## Vhuynh2

oakleysmommy said:


> She is the cutest whatever color she turns out to be, but yes the tips of her ears is usually the color they will be..Actually i am looking at Oakley and Zoe right now and their ears are darker than the rest of them?? LOL my dogs are backwards.. they also have white "butt feathers" i call them their "pants"


Lol, I complimented a golden's "butt feathers" once, and the owner seemed a tiny bit bothered that I used such a blunt and direct term. She preferred to call them pantaloons. I just think "butt feathers" is cute  LOL is it weird that I think my puppy's butt is cute and that it has "feathers" and therefore use the term "butt feathers"?


----------



## hotel4dogs

Tito is on the darker side, but his butt feathers and tail feathers are just about white. 
A forum member gave him the nickname "his fuzzibuttness". It fits.


----------



## oakleysmommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> Lol, I complimented a golden's "butt feathers" once, and the owner seemed a tiny bit bothered that I used such a blunt and direct term. She preferred to call them pantaloons. I just think "butt feathers" is cute  LOL is it weird that I think my puppy's butt is cute and that it has "feathers" and therefore use the term "butt feathers"?


Nope not weird at all i pinch their butts all the time:uhoh:


----------



## jimla

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito is on the darker side, but his butt feathers and tail feathers are just about white.
> A forum member gave him the nickname "his fuzzibuttness". It fits.


LOL! Our two have white butt feathers too!


----------



## wmag

We call Kaseys white feathers her "Butt Cheeks"! Besides her ears her rear is my favorite part of her! LOL!


----------



## Vhuynh2

Ha ha buttcheeks! I love it!


----------



## Pointgold

MyBentley said:


> In looking back at this long thread, I guess we should be glad that there are many breeders available that represent diverse perspectives on feeding dogs.
> 
> There are breeders very tied to feeding one specific brand and highly recommend that new puppy owners continue with it indefinitely. I know of breeders in this category who feed Eukanuba, Pro Plan, Orijen, Canidae and Kirkland, etc.
> 
> There are breeders who feed and prefer one brand but will also share information about other brands/formulas that they think well of if you want to consider changing once the puppy is well-settled into its new home.
> 
> And there is starting to be a growing number of breeders who are feeding raw and promoting it to their new puppy parents.
> 
> Some breeders are flexible; others not so much. So besides checking out all the health clearances, the home, the contract, etc; it would be wise to have discussions about feeding also to see if you and the potential breeder are a good match.


 
LOL "Inflexible" breeders like me recommend the food their dogs do best on, and tell them why. Which in my case includes telling the buyer about all the other foods I have fed, some which they did "fine" on, others were disastrous. I do not contractually require any buyer to use Pro Plan. Most do, because they want their dogs to look like mine, and they trust me. If someone wants to switch they sure can. And, as has happened before, probably because I have genetically modified them to only tolerate Pro Plan, who sponsors me, they call complaining about loose stools, not wanting to eat or even always acting hungry but not maintaining or gaining weight, etc. I suggest changing back to please my sponsor and because their DNA requires it and all is well with the world. 


Seriously. For the gazillionth time - FEED WHAT YOUR DOG DOES BEST ON.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I wonder if there's a test available yet for the PP gene?


----------



## Pointgold

hotel4dogs said:


> I wonder if there's a test available yet for the PP gene?


Soon, Grasshopper, soon...

Here's the thing - when a breeder says feed what your dog does best on, which they do, when you buy a dog from them it IS "their" dog, so it sorta kinda makes sense that when it becomes your dog, it still is gonna do best on the same food.


----------

