# Entire litter of black goldens



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

She looks like a lab/golden to me. The DNA tests are not completely accurate, so I wouldn't rely on them, personally. The black girl in my signature had a mom who was a purebred golden. We just guessed the rest was lab or a high lab mix because she looked so much like a lab.

Oh, and your puppy is precious!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

My (limited) understanding is that the gene for black coat is a dominant gene. If one parent passes it on, the puppy will be black. If the sire has two alleles for coat color and they are both black, then 100% of the puppies will be black.

When it gets more complicated -- like black and tan -- I have no idea.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Goldens cannot be black, they carry two copies of the e allele, and are ee. 
EE or Ee would make the dog black, but there are no Goldens who carry this particular pair of alleles. The entire population carries sex cells that are homozygous for this locus so when two Goldens are bred, there are no E's to inherit. 
Black spot phenomenon is a totally different thing as the dog with a black spot is still ee, but there has been a somatic mutation as the skin cells that sprout hairs divided and all the cells that come from the mutated one will also make black hair, but a dog (such as the dam of the litter) that is black got that way from the meeting of one of the sex cells either sperm or egg holding an E instead of an e and not from every cell in her body mutating. 
So, mama could not be 100% Golden- she has to have been bred to another dog. That given, the most the puppies could be is 25% Golden. 

Pleiotropy determines the shading, etc in a Golden's coat, as there are at least 12 genes involved. Here is a good site that explains in much more detail- Dog Coat Colour Genetics
And Anney (k-9design)is the informal GRCA coat color person... she has written articles for GR News, etc and hopefully she will post a clearer explanation than I did as to why the 'black GR dam of the puppy' can not be herself a Golden.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> Goldens cannot be black, they carry two copies of the e allele, and are ee.
> EE or Ee would make the dog black, but there are no Goldens who carry this particular pair of alleles. The entire population carries sex cells that are homozygous for this locus so when two Goldens are bred, there are no E's to inherit.
> Black spot phenomenon is a totally different thing as the dog with a black spot is still ee, but there has been a somatic mutation as the skin cells that sprout hairs divided and all the cells that come from the mutated one will also make black hair, but a dog (such as the dam of the litter) that is black got that way from the meeting of one of the sex cells either sperm or egg holding an E instead of an e and not from every cell in her body mutating.
> So, mama could not be 100% Golden- she has to have been bred to another dog. That given, the most the puppies could be is 25% Golden.
> ...


I took the OP to mean that the puppy was all black, not the dam, though it was a little ambiguous as written.

So, what I'm guessing is that the dam was ee and the sire was EE, thus making 100% of the puppies Ee and black, as well as 50% Golden Retriever. That is, if I understood it right.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Also, if the company said your puppy is 50% Golden, that (to me) would mean that her dam is 50% Golden and her sire is also 50% Golden. That's the only way I can think of that they got 50% for the Golden part. I'd think the odds of two generations of Rott mix breeding were pretty slim, and that's what it'd take to get 50% Golden out of the puppy. 
Unless the bitch owner also has Rottweilers and it is an easy guess as to both generations' genetic makeup I would be suspicious of the lab who did the testing to be able to say 50-50 with certainty.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

What does the mom look like? Or could you post a picture of the mom? I was a little confused reading your OP, because I initially thought that you were saying the mom was all black with short hair... on second read, I'm not sure.


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## jacal1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Thank you so much all! Robin, just to clarify, the mother was a golden Golden. Wouldn't that mean that if she bred with a dog with dominant all black the pups would be black?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Ah! I assumed 'she' in the second sentence was the dam, but if it is the puppy, then yes, 50% makes more sense. I'm too literal.
So, the Rott supplied the E that made the puppies black. Easy breezie...the black and tan is a totally different gene, not in the same place that the E is, and it was not expressed.


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## jacal1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Sorry for the confusing wording...long day

Mom Pic


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Yes any Golden bred to a black dog will make black puppies. The black and tan is on the A locus.
There are too many other genes that play into it to make a simple Punnett Square out of black and yellow- that only works when you're looking at one simple trait.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Do the owners of the mom have any idea who the dad was? She obviously looks like a golden...


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## jacal1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Thanks again so much - I find this really interesting. Robin, a friend of mine said what you just said, but she also told me that the chances of that happening with all 7 pups were beyond slim. She said that with those genetics there is still a 75% chance that the pups would be black and tan, so the chances of all 7 not being black and tan were remote.


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## jacal1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Megora said:


> Do the owners of the mom have any idea who the dad was? She obviously looks like a golden...


They have no idea who the dad was. It seemed odd to me that the testing lab would say there were two pure breds involved - what are the chances of two people who went to the trouble of getting a pure bred dog (as was mentioned above pure rotties are not easy to find) also letting them roam free, unaltered!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I don't know that much about the agouti locus, and do not know what Goldens bring to the mix on that A locus either. I'm sure Anney knows. It says in my quick look book that tan points must be homozygous to be expressed, so that to me says they are recessive... but there are at least 12 genes that play into it, and it could be (I don't know) that a masking gene or a dilute gene or something else could govern the tan points. For the 25-75 to work, all of those would have to follow Mendel's law.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

There's a lot that goes into the mix. Will try to give a quick and dirty explanation, but I will inevitably leave a lot out (there have been entire books written on the topic of the genes that rule canine coat color).

Goldens carry the gene for dominant black (K locus), but the double recessive gene at the E locus that all Goldens have suppresses production of black pigment, which is the source of the golden coloration. When you cross a Golden, you typically lose the double recessive at the e-locus, so there is very high likelihood of black puppies.

Black and tan coloration is governed by gene expression at the agouti locus. Agouti genes cannot be expressed unless a dog is double recessive at the K locus. The K locus effectively masks expression of all agouti genes.

Most Goldens are ee (double recessive for recessive yellow) KK (dominant black, masks expression of genes at the agouti locus) and Rottweilers are presumably EE kk atat (agouti Black and Tan), so puppies produced by a Golden-Rott cross would presumably be Ee Kk and solid black, regardless of genes located at the agouti locus (which very well could be atat).

In the case of a Golden-Lab mix or a Golden-Rott mix, solid black puppies would not be surprising.


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## jacal1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Hi Flatcoated. Thanks so much. I was told that this mix is usually black and tan. While an occasional black pup would not be surprising, would 7 out of 7 pups being black be surprising?


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

That looks like a dog I rescued and tried to find a home for after finding him outside my front gate on Valentines Day 2003. I named him Cupid.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

7 out of 7 solid black would not be at all unusual. In order for a Golden mix to exhibit black and tan coloration, the Golden parent would have to be heterozygous (Kk) or double recessive at the K-locus. I don't think this is unheard of, but it would unusual.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If most Goldens are KK, and Rotts are kk, I would imagine you'd be hard pressed to get a litter of 75% tan pointed puppies. It seems like they'd be predominately black, as your litter is.

aside- love the diagram you did FC!


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## Bwilson (Mar 25, 2014)

I own a Rottweiler and I don't see that in her. Agree looks more lab golden mix. She is adorable and can't wait to watch her grow.


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## jacal1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Bwilson said:


> I own a Rottweiler and I don't see that in her. Agree looks more lab golden mix. She is adorable and can't wait to watch her grow.


Me neither. Between that and the fact that the DNA people said that Goldens had one copy of the black and tan trait you can see why I was confused. (And it didn't help that an image search of "golden rottweiler mix" showed only black and tan dogs). 

But I love it - if that's who she is, now I know. And I look forward to sticking around here!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm not sure what they meant by saying Goldens have only one copy of a black and tan allele. But if Goldens are KK, and the black and tan must be ****/recessive to be expressed, then it makes sense that there'd be no black and tan marked puppies.


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## Adriel (Dec 15, 2013)

flatcoated said:


> There's a lot that goes into the mix. Will try to give a quick and dirty explanation, but I will inevitably leave a lot out (there have been entire books written on the topic of the genes that rule canine coat color).
> 
> Goldens carry the gene for dominant black (K locus), but the double recessive gene at the E locus that all Goldens have suppresses production of black pigment, which is the source of the golden coloration. When you cross a Golden, you typically lose the double recessive at the e-locus, so there is very high likelihood of black puppies.
> 
> ...


Okay, now I am going brain numb... :

Mind me asking how white markings fit in all this?

Don't see a lot with white markings, so must be in with that pleiotropic gene?


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## Adriel (Dec 15, 2013)

Defiantly looks like a Black Lab to me, and very good looking. Should be interesting to see if any feathering.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Um, question here: You say they have no idea who the sire is. So why would you think it was a Rottie?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

jacal1 said:


> They have no idea who the dad was. It seemed odd to me that the testing lab would say there were two pure breds involved - what are the chances of two people who went to the trouble of getting a pure bred dog (as was mentioned above pure rotties are not easy to find) also letting them roam free, unaltered!


There is an extremely high probability that a pure bred dog can be allowed to run loose, happens with astounding regularity. Obviously they allowed their pure bred, Golden Retriever female, in heat outside unsupervised, and a black intact male dog came to visit.

However I see Labrador in your puppy. I would doubt Rottweiller. The black dog in this picture is my spaniel mix, she is 30 lbs and 16 inches tall at the shoulder. The Wisdom Panel DNA test I did on her said she was Saint Bernard X German Shepherd. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in dna test results.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

DanaRuns said:


> Um, question here: You say they have no idea who the sire is. So why would you think it was a Rottie?


She ran a DNA test and got Golden Retriever x Rottweiller


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

Adriel said:


> Okay, now I am going brain numb... :
> 
> 
> 
> ...



White is a whole 'nother can of worms. It is determined by yet another genetic locus and, unlike agouti, is not masked by dominant black, but most retrievers (other than Tollers) do not carry genes that produce white markings. Things get more complicated from there. http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/white.htm is a good link if you're interested in learning more.

Cannot take credit for the diagram. I've had it for a while and should probably backtrack and try to find a proper citation.


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## Adriel (Dec 15, 2013)

Defiantly looks like a Black Lab to me, and very good looking. Should be interesting to see if any feathering.

odd this didn't post...


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## jacal1 (Aug 15, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> I'm not sure what they meant by saying Goldens have only one copy of a black and tan allele. But if Goldens are KK, and the black and tan must be ****/recessive to be expressed, then it makes sense that there'd be no black and tan marked puppies.


Thanks again. I get what you are saying and I appreciate how you are making something complicated so clear! I hope you don't mind one more question: Why do so many golden rotties end up with rottie colors? I'm noticing many crosses with Rotties end up with rottie colors.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If the tan tips have to have kk to express, whatever breed has been crossed with the Rottie must be ****/recessive for that pair. AND anything that can mask it would have to not be present as well. 
Coat color is so complicated. When you start factoring in nose/lip pigment determiners, and in breeds that come in blues, could be dilute, could be freckled, it would be a really difficult job to go just on the dog's physical appearance to try to guess what genetics it has.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

mylissyk said:


> The black dog in this picture is my spaniel mix, she is 30 lbs and 16 inches tall at the shoulder. The Wisdom Panel DNA test I did on her said she was Saint Bernard X German Shepherd. I wouldn't put a lot of faith in dna test results.


Sorry for the hijack - but in the midst of this really interesting thread, this made me laugh out loud.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Cute puppy - I would also think she looks more like a black lab puppy or lab mix. 

I am a bit baffled though about the title of this thread since the pups are obviously not a litter of black goldens.


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