# House breaking



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

He does not understand the rules. Do not punish him for not understanding. Start over as if he is a baby puppy and take him out on a leash. Have a party with lots of praise and really good treats (rewards) for potty outside. If you two go outside and he does not eliminate you will have to tether him to you in the house. Wait 5 minutes and try again outside on the leash. Once he eliminates have that party and you can then give him some freedom inside the house. 

This will take some time and probably frustration on your part because he has had a long time to build up on these habits. These habits are because he is confused on what you want him to do. Do not punish him for what you have created.

You need to build the relationship by being fun and rewarding good behavior. He is unsure of you. Sometimes you are fun and loving sometimes he is in trouble. You want to build his trust so no matter what he will come to you.

You cannot expect him to use the bells until he learns that he is to always potty outside and that cannot be done with out lots of effort and management on your part now that he thinks it is acceptable to potty in the house. It takes 500 good repetitions to really understand what we want from them.

This is going to take some work. Please have the patience to truly show him the way.


----------



## Burgerman91 (Oct 2, 2012)

I always praise him for going outside. But I fail to understand why you don't punish them for doing bad. Its how my parents raised their dogs. Go in the house, put their nose next to it and tell them No! Figured you would teach them the good behavior is good and the bad behavior is bad.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Solinvictus gave you some very good advice and tips.

IMO you should never scold them for going in the house, that's negative reinforcement. 

Young adults, older dogs can be house trained. 

I adopted a former puppy mill momma girl at the age of 2, almost 7 years ago. She was not house trained. I worked with her for several days, made a huge deal when she went potty outside, she was not food motivated at the time. As Solinvictus said, make a Party out of it. Within a weeks time, she had maybe one or two accidents, then started going out on her own without any. I have a petdoor that leads out to my fenced in backyard-she can go in and out whenever she wants. 

Be very very patient, be consistent, only use positive reinforcement, do not scold or punish him for accidents.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Burgerman91 said:


> Okay, so I'm having trouble getting koda to go outside. I let him outside all the time and yet he still goes in the house at the same spot every single time. I literally just let him in the house 10 minutes ago after he was outside for a half an hour, and he already went number 2! It's driving me crazy. I don't think hes catching onto the bells on the door. Somebody tell me something I don't know so I can stop cleaning up messes multiple times per day.
> 
> PS: He doesn't have den instincts and will gladly go potty in his crate and then sleep in it.


You have to get the puppy out so much more often than you think. I have a 9 week old puppy, and we've had no housebreaking accidents in 8 days. The reason? Super-structure and supervision. The pup has a tiny walnut sized bladder, so try to make sure he is "empty" anytime he is down on the floors in your house. Play with him, engage with him, but do not let him hang out/hang around yet. Pups sometimes need to go potty, but get distracted and forget. Being outside for 30 minutes is meaningless if you do not see him go. Every accident unhousebreaks the pup and confuses him, so try not to let them happen at all through great management. If the puppy eats or drinks, be aware to get him out, if he naps or chews, get him out . I was so tired last night, but it took mystic about 20 minutes to decide to potty outside. He kept getting distracted by butterflies. However, once he went, he could go in his crate guilt and worry free for several hours.

If you punish the puppy, he will not learn anything except not to trust you. I like the expression if you find a mess, hit yourself on the forhead with a rlled up newspaper, lol.


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Burgerman91 said:


> I always praise him for going outside. But I fail to understand why you don't punish them for doing bad. Its how my parents raised their dogs. Go in the house, put their nose next to it and tell them No! Figured you would teach them the good behavior is good and the bad behavior is bad.


When I was house training Bear, we were told that any accident the pup has is OUR fault not the pups. If you approach it from that mentality, there is no need (or desire, really) to punish the pup. 

Try cleaning the carpet/floor with vinegar. Wash the crate bedding with vinegar then wash it again in soap. The vinegar is an enzymatic cleanser and will clean out the smell so the pup doesn't even know they peed in the bed. 

Dogs, from my experience, go where they have gone before.... Where they smell they have gone before. My 10 month old will wander the yard until he smells his own waste and then he will go. 

I know it's frustrating. But the puppy is just a baby and they don't know what you expect of them. Also, be aware once they do understand not to potty in the house, you have to generalize it to other indoor areas (stores, etc). 

Idk how old your dog is, but for many months we were taking bear out every 20-30 minutes. 

Also, prevention is KEY! Keep your eye on the pup always. If they start circling around, sniffing, they probably have to go. If they are restless, they probably have to go. The rule of thumb is to take them out 1) when they wake up 2) after any meal 3) before and after nap times 4) after any playtime. 

Those are generally when they need to go. 

If the pup has an accident. Just clean it up. No muss. No fuss. The last thing you want to do is to teach the pup that you cause bad things or that if he potties inside and YOU find out it hurts. Then they will just hide to potty and you'll be even further from success than before. 

Good luck. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Burgerman91 said:


> I always praise him for going outside. But I fail to understand why you don't punish them for doing bad. Its how my parents raised their dogs. Go in the house, put their nose next to it and tell them No! Figured you would teach them the good behavior is good and the bad behavior is bad.


The reason you don't need to punish them is that you housebreak a dog by using his natural instinct not to soil his living space. They don't actually learn it's "wrong," and teaching them to fear you around messes doesn't help housebreak them any faster or more reliably.

All they need is the habit, not the fear. That means pre-empting accidents before they happen and praising when they get it right. A dog can certainly learn to fear getting caught making a mess in the house, but it doesn't help housebreak him, so why put him through it?

And besides, unless you catch a dog right as he's actually doing it, he'll have no way of understanding your anger with what he did. He can't connect the fact that you're shoving his nose in the mess now with the fact you're mad he made it a few minutes ago. And you still don't need to scare or intimidate the dog if you catch him in the act anyway, just interrupt him and carry him to an appropriate spot for him to do his business.

I used to think dogs needed to know it's "wrong," and now I feel bad for all the previous puppies I terrorized by yelling "no!" when they peed in the house, because it turns out that it's totally unnecessary to scare them. My more recent dogs were simply managed, interrupted, and shown what to do. I swear it even goes faster that way.


----------



## Burgerman91 (Oct 2, 2012)

I already use the vinegar to clean up. I do the happy dance when he goes outside, he's 11 months not a 12 weeks, he should be able to hold it for longer than an hour or 2. Im just keeping him on his leash whenever I can and only letting him off when he goes potty outside for some playtime. Once again, he is a rare case where he will pee and sleep in it. Just did it this morning. After being in the cage for only 30 minutes.


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Have you taken him to a vet to rule out a medical reason why he cannot hold it? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

At a year - he should be able to hold it for up to 10 hours although that should be an extreme.

Go to the vet and have them do a full medical exam and explain what the problem is.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I always praise him for going outside. But I fail to understand why you don't punish them for doing bad. Its how my parents raised their dogs. Go in the house, put their nose next to it and tell them No! Figured you would teach them the good behavior is good and the bad behavior is bad."

Koda is very confused. It is unfair to punish a dog that has no idea what you want him to do.
He first needs a very clear understanding of what you want him to do.

This is the problem you are having he doesn't trust you and chooses not to come when called because he doesn't know if you will reward him or punish him. 

example:

If I guided you to the kitchen and said top the pickle. You just looked at me confused. I then said it louder TOP THE PICKLE. You may just do nothing or try to move away from me. What did I ask you to do? Do you have any idea? No? Should I then put you in the corner or yell at you for not doing as I asked? If we did this every day for a day, a week, a month, or a year would you want to be anywhere near me?

It takes 500 repetitions with praise and reward with you being totally consistent for a dog to really really understand what you have asked.

The dog will grasp that if he doesn't do what you want and does not get any praise or reward that he hasn't done what you want as long as you have trained him fairly.

Getting praise and rewards or play are good consequences for performing the desired behavior
Not getting praise, rewards and play are consiquensces for not performing the desired behavior.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"he is a rare case where he will pee and sleep in it."

I don't believe that he is a "rare case". It has happened because of how you attempted to teach him when he was younger. You hurried the process, punished him when he had no idea what he was doing was wrong. Koda is a very confused dog.


----------



## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Burgerman91 said:


> I already use the vinegar to clean up. I do the happy dance when he goes outside, he's 11 months not a 12 weeks, he should be able to hold it for longer than an hour or 2. Im just keeping him on his leash whenever I can and only letting him off when he goes potty outside for some playtime. Once again, he is a rare case where he will pee and sleep in it. Just did it this morning. After being in the cage for only 30 minutes.


Take a moment to consider what is truly REWARDING (reinforcing, motivating) to HIM - it is the dog that decides what is 'worthwhile' meaningful to him. A 'happy dance' and praise may make you feel good, but what exactly does it 'do' for him? Is it rewarding and reinforcing enough to help him choose to repeat his behavior? Is a $5 'bonus' or a smile from your boss at work going to 'cut it' for you? Would an extra $100 on payday, and a hearty congratulations going make you smile? 
Food is a primary reinforcer, every dog needs to eat. A food item a dog gets everyday ie:kibble is not going to be as high value to a dog as a piece of cheese or hot dog he only gets on a rare occasion. When he is successful outside, feed him several pieces of high value treats in a row, go ahead, praise and 'happy dance', but give him something that is 'wonderful' 'fantastic' to HIM!
Keep in mind that it is going to take some time, lots of patience and highly rewarding the appropriate behavior, also understand that he is not 'choosing' to upset you, or ignore what you are trying to teach him.


----------



## Burgerman91 (Oct 2, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> "he is a rare case where he will pee and sleep in it."
> 
> I don't believe that he is a "rare case". It has happened because of how you attempted to teach him when he was younger. You hurried the process, punished him when he had no idea what he was doing was wrong. Koda is a very confused dog.


I take a lot of offense to that. Have you met my dog? No, have you seen the way I crate trained him? No. I didn't punish him for going in the crate. For anyone to think he could hold it when he was 12 weeks old for 8 hours while I was at work, is absurd.

I know what commands he does and does not understand. He understands come here, so if he doesn't come to me when I ask, I grab him by his collar, walk him inside, and put him on his leash. The only time he doesn't come when called is when he's excited. So its difficult to get him back in the house when we were just playing frisbee because he wants to keep playing.
I think I'm done with these forums because it seems most of the time I just get criticized for my methods. When in my perspective, I don't see how a dog can learn something is a bad habit by just not reacting to it at all. That's not how my parents raised their dogs, and their dog is perfectly well behaved now. There is a time to stop babying a dog and start putting your foot down.


----------



## Goldens R Great (Aug 19, 2010)

I think it would be a good idea to get a urine sample from Koda and take it to his vet to rule out a possible Urinary Tract Infection. He may or may not have a UTI, but I would definitely want to find that out.


----------



## Ollie'sMama (Apr 4, 2013)

I don't understand why you would ask for help if you don't want an alternative way to what you are already doing. Everyone who told you to use positive reinforcement has potty trained dogs and guess what, you don't! If you don't want to hear other ideas on how to train your dog don't ask for them. Obviously your way isn't working why not listen to well meant advice that has been given to you? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Burgerman91 (Oct 2, 2012)

It's not the advice I'm taking offense too, its the snarky attitude that goes with it. I don't like disrespect. Did I ever say I punished him for going in his crate when he was a pup? No, she assumed and not only that but criticized me for something I never did. I crate trained him properly and never shouted at him back then, but at this age, he needs to know who the boss is. For all I know, he is sick, he's peed three times in the past hour and half. Two were in the house.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I am sorry I offended you. I was not being snarky. You just read it that way. I only want what is best for Koda and you. 

I have read a few of your recent threads and the information seemed to suggest that Koda is not clear on the expectations you want for elimination.

You have informed me that my information was wrong and I will bow out of your thread. I still wish the best for you and Koda.

Here are the post that led me down the wrong path..... 
"Okay, so I'm having trouble getting koda to go outside. I let him outside all the time and yet he still goes in the house at the same spot every single time. I literally just let him in the house 10 minutes ago after he was outside for a half an hour" 

Not sure what to do - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums "I can train tricks just fine, its the behavior and potty training I can't seem to do."

#7 6/26/2013 8:57AM
"I can not for the life of me teach him good manners and to go potty outside. He is not just marking his territory, he just needs to go, and goes. When I get home from work, I have a bucket and mop next to the door so I can quickly fill it up and get to mopping. It's not even entirely because I'm a horrid trainer either, he chooses not to listen to me constantly. He understands the basics, sit, stay, come here, etc... And i know he does for a fact. But he constantly looks at me after telling him to come to me, and just sits and stares. If i move closer, he moves further. I like a good game of chase as much as the next guy, but sometimes i need to get going to work, or something important. He uses that high pitched bark of his all the time when he doesn't get his way. I will admit, I get extremely frustrated when he does. I don't hit him, don't worry. But I can not seem to get him to stop. I'm just a bit tired, and am coming to the conclusion that maybe I don't have what it takes to train a puppy just yet"


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Mine must go potty as soon as they go outside before play and before they come back in even as adults of they have been outside playing. Before they get into the car and before they go inside after getting out of the car. 

I can let Buddy outside a over dozen times a day but unless I see him go to the bathroom I tell him potty before he comes in. Yes he is able to hold it but I need to know when he last went pee at least. With 4 dogs I need to know!

Please don't rub your puppies nose in YOUR accident or think that doing so is okay.

If he is using the same spot everyday in the house that make it so he can't get to the spot! I would use an enzymatic pet cleaner and not vinegar- There must be residual odor there!

Some dogs have a certain time of day they poop. Buddy always poop around 6pm give or take 15 min. Lucy goes first thing in the morning and 6:30 pm. Cozy likes 12:30 pm or 7pm. Roxy has no set pattern. That does not mean they won't also go other times as well.


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Burgerman91 said:


> It's not the advice I'm taking offense too, its the snarky attitude that goes with it. I don't like disrespect. Did I ever say I punished him for going in his crate when he was a pup? No, she assumed and not only that but criticized me for something I never did. I crate trained him properly and never shouted at him back then, but at this age, he needs to know who the boss is. For all I know, he is sick, he's peed three times in the past hour and half. Two were in the house.


Then take him to the vet.


----------



## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Buddy used to leave in a doggie litter box before I got him. His previous owner never bothered to housebreak him or the other 3 dogs he had! You could smell the guys trailer from the street!

Buddy never had an accident in my house and crating was not an option! He has PTSD about being confined since that was what his previous owner would do to him for up to +16 hrs a day. Buddy was kept teetered to me or someone else at all times for the first week I had him. He was never given a chance to have an accident! I took him out every 2 hrs from 6a-12midnight specifically to potty. We spend 80% of the day outside. We would come in only for him to eat, drink, and sleep. House = Calm. At night time he was tethered to me for months.

All of mine still get mini parties when they potty outside. They always get told "good boy/girl". "Good potty". Buddy actually takes the most pride and does a victory lap several times a day.


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

How did Koda do today? Have you scheduled a vet visit? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I do not consider myself an expert. I am 63 and have had 5 Golden's (3 still with me) over the last 25 years. Prior to that I had a Basset, Husky, and two or three mutts....never have I had a dog that pee'd in it's bed or could not be house broken...Take him to the Vet and if that does not provide answers...follow what these people are saying....one of these will provide a solution


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

This thread makes me very sad. Please don't be mean to your dog. My definition of mean is "yelling" and "grabbing him by the collar".
And yes I do feel qualified to say that. Have you read Ky's background? If not, please do. I'm afraid yelling and grabbing collars is in my mind abuse and Ky would agree.

I didn't say this to make you mad although I'm sure it will. I felt I had to say it for your dog because he can't talk.

Ky's Story........
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/other-pets/122011-kys-background.html


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

If he does go outside AND still goes in the SAME SPOT inside all the time, it means the odor is still there. If you don't get that odor out he will go back to it.


----------



## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I think a timer would probably be your best bet, and I think that is generally the case with most inexperienced dog owners (which you say that you are, I don't mean that offensively). You know that Koda will go potty every 30 minutes or so still, so set that timer for every 20 minutes and get his little booty outside. If he goes, yayyyy! Treats! Treats outside right after he pees, not once he gets back in the house. If he doesn't go, tether him to you and try again in a few minutes like Carolina Mom suggested. The trick is for him to not have the opportunity to go potty anywhere other than outside with your close management.

As dog owners, it's easy to think that our dogs "know" something when they really don't. Because they can't communicate confusion or frustration, we tend to not realize there are gaps in their learning until they do something we don't like. I think we tend to overestimate how much our dogs understand things... we are communicating in a completely different language, after all! 

As far as why to not punish him... If you are punishing Koda for going potty, you are ultimately showing him that potty feelings + your presence = bad stuff happens. You need to teach him that potty feelings = come find you because your presence means we go outside and go potty and yayyyy treats! Punishing is extremely ineffective for potty training as a general whole. Interestingly enough, my parents also subscribed to the punish-for-potty method and all three of their dogs have had lapses in potty training as adults. And regardless, it's important to be adaptable when you are training dogs. The method you are using now is not working and has not worked for the duration of the time that you have had Koda, so time to try something new! Dog training keeps you on your toes, that's for sure 

I relate to growing up in a family that uses more old school dog training tactics. It's important to realize that while those tactics may "work" and your parents dogs may be well behaved, those tactics aren't working for your dog and they are not working for your dog because those tactics tend to just treat a behavior symptom rather than help the dog completely learn. 

I hope you start having some better days ahead with Koda 

Edited to add : I agree with a vet check for a UTI first and foremost though. You never know.


----------



## MaxMom (May 28, 2013)

I hope you were able to take Koda to the vet to rule out a UTI. They can really be a problem.

I also hope you stick with the forums.

Try to remember that to guess "tone" from written words is not always easy or correct.

I think everyone is trying to give you pointers and advice.

I know it is frustrating but I think if you pick a method and a schedule and stick to it you will get there.

I agree with the cleaning and the difficulty of getting the "smell" out from the dog's point of view.

Hang in there! 

And please let us know how Koda is doing!


----------



## Burgerman91 (Oct 2, 2012)

Might as well answer you guys. I havent been able to take him to the vet because I totaled my car on a deer a couple weeks ago, and cant have pets in the rental. I just got an SUV yesterday and it was too late to schedule a visit, today is the 4th so they are closed. If they are open tomorrow I will make an appointment. However today has been great so far. I woke up to some #2 which I understood because I accidentally fell asleep on the couch before I could let him out before bed. But I havent had an accident yet today. It's just me and koda today, the room mate is out on a camping trip and he took his beagle to his parents to visit for a few days. Without the distraction of another dog when he goes outside it's been a bit easier. MikaTallulah, I have actually been doing everything you said and that seems to be working. I had started taking him out on a leash and not letting him play till he went potty and i've worked out the leash so I just stand on the back porch waiting and he goes fairly quickly. Working fairly well.


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

How has Koda been? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------

