# question on utility articles



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Are they tied down tight, so he can't move them, or loose? 

I would suggest going back to what he was doing 'right' and use the mat again for a few times, so he's back in the 'groove' of it. Then slowly make the move towards them being off the mat - have one loose one still tied but off, then two, then one untied on the mat, then move it off the mat. My guess is either he's learned to do it on the mat so if the mat's not there it doesn't look like the same game, or if the strings were enough for him to see, he can't see the strings, or...

My old border collie used to run flyball all the time, weekend after weekend, no problems, solid dog. At a practice one time I had to run to the car, so someone else took him to run to help with passing another dog. He ran down to the box, got his ball, turned and brought the ball to me as fast as he could - in the parking lot.:doh: His understanding of 'the game' was to go get the ball and run it back to mom - didn't matter where I was or what he'd done hundreds of times before. 

Good luck with the scenting! Storee is on a board right now and learning not to bring the wrong ones still attached to the board back. She's quite convinced that's the game, bring the big board back and crash into things with it on the way, THEN go get the one that fell off.... Hope her second time around isn't like that. 

Lana


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hello! A groovy trick I learned was to take some wire clothes hangers, cut the "corners" off of them (leaving a wire "loop" about 4" long) and use the wire to loop over the article bars and push the wire into the ground. This will effectively "tie down" your articles but there is no mat there, so a different picture to the dog than the mat but the same result. Wear gloves while hooking the articles to the ground so they don't have your hand scent on them.
Also, there's no need to take ALL of the unscented articles off the mat or unhooked at once. Start with one or two. 
Some people tie the unscented articles together so if the dog picks one up they all come up, which I guess startles the dog and tells him "NO" -- well I tried that once with Fisher and he was weirded out by it! So I don't do that. 
Keep it a fun game! Best of luck!
--Anney
& Fisher too
CH Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UD RAE TD JH WCX CCA VCX


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, they're tied real loosely, on about 12 inches of fishing line because when I first started out he just nudged them to see which one moved, the little dickens.
I did go back to the mat this morning and he was very hesitant. This dog gets very worried if he thinks he's going to make a mistake. I scented it very strongly (I had had a treat in my hand prior to scenting it) and he easily succeeded. The second time around he grabbed the wrong one, realized it was wrong when he got to the end of the line, dropped it, and then did get the right one.
Looks like we're going to have to go completely back to the mat for at least a couple days.
Does anyone believe in the 5 week learning loss, where at about 5-6 weeks of training a new still they just plain forget they've ever seen it before? I think I'm becoming a believer...




Bender said:


> Are they tied down tight, so he can't move them, or loose?
> 
> I would suggest going back to what he was doing 'right' and use the mat again for a few times, so he's back in the 'groove' of it. Then slowly make the move towards them being off the mat - have one loose one still tied but off, then two, then one untied on the mat, then move it off the mat. My guess is either he's learned to do it on the mat so if the mat's not there it doesn't look like the same game, or if the strings were enough for him to see, he can't see the strings, or...
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, that's a great idea....now if the foot of snow melts any time soon, I'll try it! Seriously, I love the idea. 
I'm seeing in what you and Bender both wrote that I never should have tried to take ALL the articles off the mat at once, it overwhelmed him. We're going to have to back up for a while. Of course, this happened because I happily entered him in Graduate Open on Feb. 22 at the big International Kennel Club Show here in Chicago, LOL!
BTW, is Fisher one of Yogi's puppies? Yogi is my all time favorite golden EVER.




K9-Design said:


> Hello! A groovy trick I learned was to take some wire clothes hangers, cut the "corners" off of them (leaving a wire "loop" about 4" long) and use the wire to loop over the article bars and push the wire into the ground. This will effectively "tie down" your articles but there is no mat there, so a different picture to the dog than the mat but the same result. Wear gloves while hooking the articles to the ground so they don't have your hand scent on them.
> Also, there's no need to take ALL of the unscented articles off the mat or unhooked at once. Start with one or two.
> Some people tie the unscented articles together so if the dog picks one up they all come up, which I guess startles the dog and tells him "NO" -- well I tried that once with Fisher and he was weirded out by it! So I don't do that.
> Keep it a fun game! Best of luck!
> ...


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

They can have relapses, but they don't actually 'forget' what they're doing. If you go back to where he's doing things right and work back up to more of a challenge he should get back into the game.

What you might want to do too is put the mat in one room, and send him from another, so you aren't sending signals to him as to right or wrong - let him work it out alone. My old dog learned scent hurdle first where I'd call him back when he had the right one, he started to rely on me telling him what was the right one. We never got to do utility because he would stand over the pile and look at me every time. As soon as there was an option and he could be 'wrong' he would do that. With Storee she's learning scenting for scent hurdle first, however we're starting scenting in the spring and I'll be doing it with her out of sight.

Lana


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> So....
> I took him off the mat.
> WHAM. No clue what to do.
> I mean seriously, it was like he'd never seen articles before.
> ...


This was one of the reasons I shaped the whole exercise - We've worked without a mat since the beginning - so we never had to reproof the exercise on various surfaces...I don't have any good advice other than going back to one article, two articles, etc -which is where I started the exercise...My experience with mats is that dogs start to look at the tie downs (or lack of ties) and work visually instead of by scent. I also didn't want my dog corrected on the pile - even if it was the mat correcting him...
Erica


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi! Well best of luck. Please remember just keep it happy, if the dog gets a wrong one just tell him to try again, no corrections or stern voice. You don't know what he's smelling and to make him feel like a failure for getting the wrong one will lead to a dog who never wants to guess.
I've not done graduate open so I'm not sure what's involved, but definitely take use of the Wild Card Utility classes to see where you're at.
Yes, Fisher is a Yogi son. What a dog! (both of them 
--Anney
& Fishie too


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, my guy has a tendency to stand and look at me when he's uncertain, that's why I went with the tie down method. I don't say anything at all until he gets back to me with the article, then we have a cookie party. I've been really pleased with how he continues to work until he gets the correct one, it's a big deal for him to do that. Not for some dogs, but for him, yes.
I've backed all the way up to where he was succeeding 100%, but now I need to figure out how to get him OFF the mat....





Bender said:


> They can have relapses, but they don't actually 'forget' what they're doing. If you go back to where he's doing things right and work back up to more of a challenge he should get back into the game.
> 
> What you might want to do too is put the mat in one room, and send him from another, so you aren't sending signals to him as to right or wrong - let him work it out alone. My old dog learned scent hurdle first where I'd call him back when he had the right one, he started to rely on me telling him what was the right one. We never got to do utility because he would stand over the pile and look at me every time. As soon as there was an option and he could be 'wrong' he would do that. With Storee she's learning scenting for scent hurdle first, however we're starting scenting in the spring and I'll be doing it with her out of sight.
> 
> Lana


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I would LOVE to have a Yogi offspring, wow. I see Fisher has a whole pile of accomplishments of his own!
Graduate open just became a title class in AKC, even though it's still a non-regular class. Basically, it's utility "dumbed down". You use 2 gloves instead of 3 (no center glove), you can give commands and/or signals on the signal exercise, the go-out is done from mid-way between the jumps, the directed jumping is done totally apart from the go-out and you only jump one of the jumps, there are only 4 articles (2 metal, 2 leather) and you get to pick whether you want him to go for the metal or the leather, they only go for 1 article not 2. Hmmm, can't remember what else.
The nice thing is that now if you want to get your dog some utility experience, while still realizing it takes FOREVER to train to actually be ready for utility, you can continue to show without being stuck in Open B forever and ever. And since it's now a title class, a lot of clubs are offering it!
I love your dog.




K9-Design said:


> Hi! Well best of luck. Please remember just keep it happy, if the dog gets a wrong one just tell him to try again, no corrections or stern voice. You don't know what he's smelling and to make him feel like a failure for getting the wrong one will lead to a dog who never wants to guess.
> I've not done graduate open so I'm not sure what's involved, but definitely take use of the Wild Card Utility classes to see where you're at.
> Yes, Fisher is a Yogi son. What a dog! (both of them
> --Anney
> & Fishie too


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I think you'll find that if you somehow use a tie down method on the ground - and back up your training a step or two - he'll quickly catch back up. Everyone I know locally who has used a tie down mat has still had to tie them down to the "earth" for a bit once off the mat.

Not as sure how you'd do that indoors - we have the benefit of training in grass where it's easy to stake down articles.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, I'm not sure how to use a tie down method off the mat, but I will think about it. Our ground is frozen solid, under a fair amount of snow yet.
I know this is one of the down side of using a tie down mat, but for this particular dog it was the way to go. He's totally shuts down if he thinks I'm not pleased or that he might have made a mistake. The mat served to correct him without me being a part of it. 
It's also a downside of having a very, very sensitive (to me) dog. No matter how hard I try not to show any emotion when he's wrong, I'm sure he "read me" when he picked up the wrong one when I initially took him off the mat and it probably upset him terribly. We'll work past it, I just moved him too fast.
On another note, he turns 23 months old next week, wow, that's ALMOST TWO, where did the time ever go??????????????????




FlyingQuizini said:


> I think you'll find that if you somehow use a tie down method on the ground - and back up your training a step or two - he'll quickly catch back up. Everyone I know locally who has used a tie down mat has still had to tie them down to the "earth" for a bit once off the mat.
> 
> Not as sure how you'd do that indoors - we have the benefit of training in grass where it's easy to stake down articles.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> On another note, he turns 23 months old next week, wow, that's ALMOST TWO, where did the time ever go??????????????????


I know what you mean. Quiz turned FIVE on New Year's Eve. :--appalled:


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well I do not have much, actually I have nothing, to add to all the great advice you got so far.
But, and you had to know I would have a but, you stated you scented the article "very strongly". Be careful about this. Some dogs need "lots oof scent" while others get overwelmed by it. You have to be the judge of what works best for your dog. 
And as an answer to 
"Does anyone believe in the 5 week learning loss, where at about 5-6 weeks of training a new still they just plain forget they've ever seen it before? I think I'm becoming a believer..."
Yes!!! Good luck it will come together. 
Just to make you feel "BETTER" my 8 year old with 9 UDX legs has out of no where developed an issue with articles. I would say over the years she missed the article excercise less than 3 times. In the last 3 shows and 5 out of the last 7 shows she has not done it and I can not figure out why. At class we were working a double set (18 loose) the last 3 weeks hoping that would help and not a problem with it. Today at the trial she blew BOTH articles. Talk about frustration, she may the first dog ever retired with 9 UDX legs.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> It's also a downside of having a very, very sensitive (to me) dog. No matter how hard I try not to show any emotion when he's wrong, I'm sure he "read me" when he picked up the wrong one when I initially took him off the mat and it probably upset him terribly.


That was my Keeper, very sensitive. It did not matter, if I repeated an exercise she thought "OMG, I was wrong and he is making me redo it!"
Actually an agility trainer helped me work pst this "problem" - try teaching weave poles without redoing them.
What we did was "almost" praised her when i wanted to repeat. I would be very happy and bubbly, clapping hands and running with her and say "Let's see if we can't do that better". Like I was saying "You are the best dog in the world". And it worked.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, Hank, that sure sounds like the Tito monster. I can only ask him to do the articles once, maybe twice if I'm lucky, or he thinks he's doing something wrong and starts trying something different.
One thing I've been doing just the past couple days, it's too soon to tell if it will help, is working some stuff that he's REAL sound on and making him do it 4 or 5 times, being very very pleased with him each time he gets it right. I'm setting him up with stuff I know he really can't get wrong. I'm going to see if that will help him work a little longer without "worrying". 
The funny thing, in agility, he couldn't care less if he's right or wrong...so obviously I do something different to convey a different message to him when we're in that venue. I'm going to have to think about that...




AmbikaGR said:


> That was my Keeper, very sensitive. It did not matter, if I repeated an exercise she thought "OMG, I was wrong and he is making me redo it!"
> Actually an agility trainer helped me work pst this "problem" - try teaching weave poles without redoing them.
> What we did was "almost" praised her when i wanted to repeat. I would be very happy and bubbly, clapping hands and running with her and say "Let's see if we can't do that better". Like I was saying "You are the best dog in the world". And it worked.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I would LOVE to have a Yogi offspring, wow. I see Fisher has a whole pile of accomplishments of his own!


Me too, I'd love a Yogi pup. And I know of a litter in the works for this year. Now do you think my other half would notice? 

Lana


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's an idea for Tito in general: What if you didn't ask for each exercise *formally* when you wanted to get another rep. in? For example, when I'm working dumbbell with Quiz:

First rep, while he goes out to get it, I turn and run away before he turns to return and then he hauls back to me.

Second rep, I throw it, and down him at my side vs. sending him to go get it. (To prevent anticipation.)

Third rep, he goes and gets it and I have him hop up on me when he gets back rather than a front.

Fourth rep, I send him and run with him, faking that I'm trying to beat him to it.

Somewhere in there, I do ask for a formal one - but more often than not, we're "playing" in such a way that is still training all the individual pieces of the exercise.

Just an idea.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Here's an idea for Tito in general: What if you didn't ask for each exercise *formally* when you wanted to get another rep. in?


This is straight out of the Bobbie Anderson playbook...Train more and practice less. I've really worked hard to put this into my training plans...I very rarely work a formal drop for example - the wait, the call, the drop, the call the finish, etc - The result is a dog that doesn't really know he's not playing - even in the match/competition environment.
Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

MurphyTeller said:


> This is straight out of the Bobbie Anderson playbook...Train more and practice less. I've really worked hard to put this into my training plans...I very rarely work a formal drop for example - the wait, the call, the drop, the call the finish, etc - The result is a dog that doesn't really know he's not playing - even in the match/competition environment.
> Erica


That's funny - I haven't read Buliding Blocks yet, but likely the people I train with have, and that's where I'm getting it from. Fortunately, I've been "brought up" on that kind of fun, play-style competitive obedience training. It's really all I know; it's who I started eight years ago when I started doing obedience with my first dog, my Whippet, wo REALLY needed things to be FUN! Now it's the foundation of all own training programs and what I really try to enstill in my students.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> That's funny - I haven't read Buliding Blocks yet, but likely the people I train with have, and that's where I'm getting it from. Fortunately, I've been "brought up" on that kind of fun, play-style competitive obedience training. It's really all I know; it's who I started eight years ago when I started doing obedience with my first dog, my Whippet, wo REALLY needed things to be FUN! Now it's the foundation of all own training programs and what I really try to enstill in my students.


The Building Blocks book is a good read - but it was nothing compared to the seminar! It was pretty wild in there - Bobbie didn't want auditors - she wanted everyone with dogs on the floor. Imagine 30 dogs in one ring playing tuggie!!! Unfortuneatly I'm a lone obedience nut in a place full of agility nuts - I came from dressage into the dog world and initially took things WAY too seriously! Over the last few years I've incorporated more and more play - in agility, field and obedience. My young dog is such a good worker - part of it is who he is, the other part of it is that work is play and play is work. 

Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

In an 8 year old I would probably suspect a mouth/tooth/nasal issue. Who knows what goes thru their heads?
I am hoping this is the 5 week issue....we went back to the mat last night, and the first time out he went and grabbed a leather, although it was a metal I had scented. The answer seems to always be leather right now....the second time out, he did grab the correct leather one.
We quit after that one, since he had succeeded once and was feeling VERY pleased with himself, especially for having gotten one of his very favorite treats that he ONLY gets for doing articles!




AmbikaGR said:


> And as an answer to
> "Does anyone believe in the 5 week learning loss, where at about 5-6 weeks of training a new still they just plain forget they've ever seen it before? I think I'm becoming a believer..."
> Yes!!! Good luck it will come together.
> Just to make you feel "BETTER" my 8 year old with 9 UDX legs has out of no where developed an issue with articles. I would say over the years she missed the article excercise less than 3 times. In the last 3 shows and 5 out of the last 7 shows she has not done it and I can not figure out why. At class we were working a double set (18 loose) the last 3 weeks hoping that would help and not a problem with it. Today at the trial she blew BOTH articles. Talk about frustration, she may the first dog ever retired with 9 UDX legs.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Stephanie and Erica, I already use a lot of that kind of stuff with Tito but the articles don't really seem to lend themselves to it as much. I don't ask him for the formal pivot except every once in a great while, I don't have him front when he comes back, etc. It's probably why, up until we got off the mat, he loved the articles. But as far as going to get the "correct" one, I do need him to work when he's over the mat. Otherwise, if I make it too much of a game, he will just grab the closest one. 
I talked to a friend last night who told me that 6 weeks is much too short of a time to try to train articles and that that's the only problem. She said it should be more like 6 months, not 6 weeks. Any opinions from anyone? 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any hurry and have no plans to show him in utility any time in the next several months, just curious.
As you can tell, I 've never trained utility before!


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Otherwise, if I make it too much of a game, he will just grab the closest one.


I think that's part of the learning process on articles. Both my dogs have done it at one point or another. They get really good at going out and finding "the one" and then at some point in time they offer just a fast retrieve - sort of like testing to see if the right answer is scent or fast. When I ran into this with Murphy (who took 3-4 months to work up to a full pile of articles with 100% success rate) I really stressed out about it. Didn't back down quickly enough (make it easier) - and eventually took a lot of time to rebuild confidence. 

Teller worked up to a full pile in a week - about 3 weeks in he hit the same step - run out, grab an article run back - very proud of himself that he had figured out how to make the game faster. My solution was to back up to fewer articles - not more scent. higher rate of reinforcment - it was a phase that we worked out of. 

When you do articles do you always start with leather and then metal? How many retrieves do you do each session? Remember the properties of scent and scent pooling. Just a couple of general terms - if you are really scenting the articles (as in VERY HOT articles) there's more scent pooling around the other articles. I use scent pooling when I train articles even though we aren't likely to have a lot of pooling in the ring. I don't particularly hot scent my articles - it's rub, rub, rub done. Careful not to scent the bells of the articles.

Did you ever train articles on the mat when they looked like they were tied down but weren't? Is your dog looking at the teather and not smelling? 



hotel4dogs said:


> I talked to a friend last night who told me that 6 weeks is much too short of a time to try to train articles and that that's the only problem. She said it should be more like 6 months, not 6 weeks. Any opinions from anyone?


It depends on the dog honestly - and how consistantly articles are trained - and worth repeating - it depends on the dog. Connie Cleveland says you have to do 1000 go outs before your dog understands the exercise. How many articles do you have to do before your dog understands? I don't know....At this point Teller only has his CD - I've taken the winter off to train. We'll start in obedience and agility in April - I might very well bring him out in novice obedience again - even though he's proofing all of the open and utility stuff. Then again I might bring him out in Open - Novice is pretty boring isn't it? I won't rush him either - it's more important that he is working happily than that he gets any legs or titles.

Erica


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hey you, yep, six weeks is a very short time to teach a reliable article exercise. If I were you, back on the mat and to square one again. I don't think Tito really understands what the whole thing is about yet. My crazy dog really does understand it, he just gets so amped up at times about it grabs the first one he gets to. And scatters the articles while doing it. Drives me absolutly nuts. Don't over think this thing. It does take time and patience. Plenty of patience.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I try to vary which I start with, but I'd say I probably start with metal a bit more often than leather. We do 2 retrieves total per session, one metal, one leather. I don't ever do more than 2 sessions in a day, usually just one. 
I hadn't thought about the scent pooling, I have been scenting it quite a bit. It's possible that I'm over scenting and that might not help things out.
I haven't trained the articles on the mat not tied down, because I tried it without the mat at all and had the problem, so I immediately went back several steps to just 4 articles, tied down. At least I've learned that much! Back way up! Don't lose the confidence.
I have "wrapped" the tie loosely over the scented article, to make sure he's not just checking for ties. It doesn't seem to fool him, so at least there's that.
When I do it later today, I'm going to try scenting it less and see what happens.


MurphyTeller said:


> When you do articles do you always start with leather and then metal? How many retrieves do you do each session? Remember the properties of scent and scent pooling. Just a couple of general terms - if you are really scenting the articles (as in VERY HOT articles) there's more scent pooling around the other articles. I use scent pooling when I train articles even though we aren't likely to have a lot of pooling in the ring. I don't particularly hot scent my articles - it's rub, rub, rub done. Careful not to scent the bells of the articles.
> 
> Did you ever train articles on the mat when they looked like they were tied down but weren't? Is your dog looking at the teather and not smelling?
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes, that's exactly what I did! Back to the mat, just 4 articles. You know my dog, I have to be so careful not to upset his confidence. Unlike your happy guy, who truly isn't bothered by much of anything! I just love your dog....




my4goldens said:


> hey you, yep, six weeks is a very short time to teach a reliable article exercise. If I were you, back on the mat and to square one again. I don't think Tito really understands what the whole thing is about yet. My crazy dog really does understand it, he just gets so amped up at times about it grabs the first one he gets to. And scatters the articles while doing it. Drives me absolutly nuts. Don't over think this thing. It does take time and patience. Plenty of patience.


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