# Denied because of kids?



## Kimouflage (Jul 7, 2013)

I have small children in my home, and have been denied by two breeders because of this. I can understand that some breeders have probably experienced the return of some puppies because the families can't handle it, or because the parents don't supervise the interaction between the puppy and the children and someone gets nipped. But without meeting me or my children, without even talking to me on the phone with one of the breeders, this decision was made. Has anybody else experienced this?

And for families who have adopted a puppy while having small kids in the house, did you actually have issues?


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

Hi, sorry to hear things are not turning out as planned for you. How young are your children?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Many breeders are hesitant letting pups go to families with young children. And many of them (and rescues) are dead set on not allowing it. But there are breeders out there that will honestly consider it. Just be patient and keep looking. Your pup is out there waiting for you to find it.


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## Kimouflage (Jul 7, 2013)

My older child will soon turn 4, and my younger one is 1 1/2. The older one is great at being gentle and loves animals more than anything, and the younger one still needs some work on being gentle, but I don't think it would take her long to catch on. Both of my kids are bright, and developmentally ahead, sweet girls (and I know, I probably sound like every other parent out there...), so I don't think they would be an issue. I know I'd be very busy, but I believe myself to be capable of keeping the peace and also training (not neglecting) the puppy.

Some friends of ours have 3 dogs and 3 children, and they both work full-time...and somehow they make it work. I have 2 children and no pets, and stay at home with my kids, and yet I am hitting this roadblock.

Part of me is happy that there are discriminating breeders out there who are very choosy about the homes their puppies go to. But part of me feels like if they don't give people a chance, they are pushing good people away, and doing more harm than good.


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## Beck (May 17, 2013)

My husband and I have our nephews and nieces over all the time and we mentioned this to every breeder we spoke to as we wanted them to know that even though we don't have any children, the dog would be socialised with children ranging in ages (4-15) Most of the breeders which we spoke to were thrilled with this as Golden's are known to be FAMILY dogs who are very loyal. We didn't have any problems with this. 
However we do live in Australia so this probably won't help in your situation. 


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## Kimouflage (Jul 7, 2013)

I have a few more breeders on the list I was considering - one is supposed to call me sometime this week (I'm not sure what she thinks of me so far but at least she hasn't denied me), and another has said that she doesn't have any puppies available at this time - I need to call her and see if she has any litters planned. The third hasn't responded to my email yet, and truth be told it's the one I'm the most interested in, but I have no idea yet what they will say. I totally did not see this coming at all. I always thought Goldens were great with kids, so I thought this would be a non-issue, or even make breeders happy to be selling a family where there would be lots of love and attention.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear of your problems finding a breeder. To be honest, I see a lot of posts on the forum of brand new puppy parents who cannot handle raising a land shark with young children. Of course, each situation is unique, but that may be what the breeders are thinking about. It's not necessarily will your children behave with the puppy. And more will your children be safe with the puppy? Golden puppies are extremely mouthy, bitey, hyper, energetic, jumpy, sometimes barky, etc. I see a lot of parents who are concerned for their children's safety because their 3 month old puppy is getting bigger and bowls their kid over or bites them in the face during play, tugs on clothing, etc. 

I totally think someone can do it, and I know you will find a breeder who sees that too. 


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

We got our first Golden - really a Golden-Collie mix - from the local Humane Society shelter. Even though they euthanized many animals, they had a policy against allowing adoptions by homes with children under age 6 out of concern that young children might torture an animal. Despite our daughter being under 3 years old at the time, they let us have Daisy, perhaps because she was already 4 months old and her life had been spared repeatedly because of intervention by a staff member. The young man observed the three of us with her and evidently concluded that our daughter wouldn't be allowed to harm a young dog, as well as seeing quick affection between them.

If you can get to the in-person interview stage, perhaps you will have similar good fortune.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Kimouflage said:


> I always thought Goldens were great with kids, so I thought this would be a non-issue, or even make breeders happy to be selling a family where there would be lots of love and attention.



The problem for many breeders when they see comments such as this is they assume people forget Goldens are DOGS. And while their temperament is OUTSTANDING for a family, they can still have reactions like any other breed of dog. A poke in the eye, a tug of a toy in the dog's mouth, a rough house play between dog and child can have horrible consequences for all involved. 
Goldens rank VERY high on the reported dog bite list due mainly to people not remembering they are a DOG.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

I grew up with an eight week old golden retriever. I was probably about 10 when we got him, and have several younger siblings. My parents complained that I treated my dog more like a sibling than my actual siblings. 

Golden retrievers are known as a family breed. But, of course, some breeders don't want to sell to kids. Other breeders don't like selling to single people because they are afraid that the puppies won't have enough people to socialize with. Guess who both of those restrictions would leave out? Everyone.

Work all day? Not enough time for the dog in some breeders' minds. Don't work all day? Too poor to buy the pricey dog food some breeders insist on.

I sympathize with you. I think you can probably find yourself a good golden retriever puppy on craiglist or in the newspaper, though. There are a lot of breeders who won't ask questions, and maybe have better prices to boot. I paid cash a few years ago and didn't get the third degree. My dog is my best friend.

What I expressed is not a popular view around here, and I can already sense the angry replies coming, but I think everyone who is willing to put in the time and effort to care for a dog, and who won't abuse it, should be able to get the dog of their choice, of whatever age or breed they desire. If the "reputable" breeders are squeezing you out, either with too many conditions or prices that are too high, give your business to the ones who don't make so many demands on you or will work with you to negotiate a price you can afford. It's your right to do it, and I think you should.

I'd love to see some of these breeders simply no longer have enough buyers willing to deal with them to keep going, and have to be more flexible on price and set fewer conditions.

People who point out that raising a puppy is difficult and that you have to watch and work with both the dog and your children not only on their own issues but on how they interact with each other are right as far as it goes. It's highly likely a young golden puppy will jump on your children and give them playful mock bites and try to wrestle with them and such for a while, for example, and that your children will try to do things to the dog that they shouldn't, so you'll have to be vigilent and step in a lot to make sure no one gets hurt in the early days. But that's not anything you can't handle if you're prepared for it.

Most of raising a puppy is about time, effort, and love. You have to love that puppy like your actual children and be prepared to put in just as much work, and learn how puppies are different from children and may require different types of effort in different areas. You also want to make sure that you're committed to keeping that dog once it becomes part of your family, even though they'll be sleepless nights and rough times and that sort of thing, just like with human children. I agree that a lot of people don't appreciate the hard work they'll have to put in and need to be prepared for it. But if you're willing to do it and stick through that dog through thick and thin, you should 100% have the right to go out and find a dog to adopt.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Maybe some of the breeders on here will chime in and offer some suggestions as to how you can make a case for your family. I would think demonstrating somehow that the dog will be included in your family activities in some way would be a good start - like taking the puppy to little league games or soccer practice (though your kids might still be too young for that), the park and planning vacations where the dog can join in the fun would be good ways to demonstrate to the breeder that the dog isn't going to be left behind and forgotten after he or she isn't a cute puppy anymore. Also remember that many of the good breeders have waiting lists for their pups, and there will likely be others with older kids or no kids inquiring about a puppy for competition or performance venues, so you need to find some way to set your family apart, and you might have to get yourself on a waiting list months in advance, before puppies are "on the ground". Good luck, and don't give up - it will be worth it


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Never mind!


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

AmbikaGR said:


> The problem for many breeders when they see comments such as this is they assume people forget Goldens are DOGS. And while their temperament is OUTSTANDING for a family, they can still have reactions like any other breed of dog. A poke in the eye, a tug of a toy in the fog's mouth, a rough house plat between dog and child can have horrible consequences for all involved.
> Goldens rank VERY high on the reported dog bite list due mainly to people not remembering they are a DOG.


For some reason, I couldn't "thank" this post. So thanks, I couldn't agree more.  I think there is a tendency to let the guard down with goldens...


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## Kimouflage (Jul 7, 2013)

I know that Goldens are still dogs - they are still animals. I totally get that. I guess what I mean is that they are supposed to be better with children, as a general rule, versus other breeds. This is why I am trying to go with a reputable breeder, with dogs that are bred for temperament, so that I can have a better idea of what I am getting myself into. But some of these "reputable" breeders would have me go adopt an adult dog from a shelter, because it would be more mature, and that dog would have an unknown lineage and history. That doesn't seem right to me - definitely not looking out for our best interest, IMO.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

You're absolutely right. The breeder is not looking out for *YOUR* best interest. They are looking out for their puppy's best interest.
They only want the best possible environment for their pups and some but not all believe a household with 2 toddlers is in the best interest for the pup.


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## Kimouflage (Jul 7, 2013)

Well, I have to be fair and say that neither recommended that I go to a shelter, but to find an older puppy or adult from a breeder, that failed on hips or for some other reason is not being kept. I don't think I want to start out with a dog who is destined for a hip replacement...and finding an older puppy is not an easy accomplishment. When I asked the one if she would hold onto a puppy for me until it was older (4-6 months was her recommendation), I got no reply.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I do somewhat think that your kids may be very little and you'll have your hands full trying to raise a golden puppy (mouthy, jumpy, hyper, excitable, runs away at every chance it gets, tears clothes, chews on kids' toys, goes potty in the house where the babies are crawling around)....

People see adult golden retrievers and yes, they are right - they are wonderful dogs when trained and fully mature (3 years old and older). 

Puppies though - can be monstrous.  

When I had Bertie in puppy classes, there was a couple with their first golden puppy. And they were at their wits end trying to get her to calm down and not drag them everywhere, not bark all the time, not pee all over them, not nip and bite them.... 

I've raised a few golden puppies and know how to prevent issues right away, but it's definitely something you learn the hard way with that first golden puppy. 

I do sympathize, because my family was turned down way at the beginning (YEARS ago) and my oldest sister was rudely scolded by the referral person at the local GRC for thinking about getting a golden while my youngest sibs were 2 and 5 years old. Older than your kids... <- And in my family, there were 4 of us who were committed to training the dog and keeping him occupied for our parents. 

We got a puppy from a byb that first time.... and the only reason why we made that puppy "work" for our family was because there were all of us kids doing all the chores and training and working with the puppy. Again, you do not have that since your kids are still babies. Not saying you can't make it work, I just wouldn't take for granted that it will be easy handling a golden puppy as well as being a mom to your children.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> The problem for many breeders when they see comments such as this is they assume people forget Goldens are DOGS. And while their temperament is OUTSTANDING for a family, they can still have reactions like any other breed of dog. A poke in the eye, a tug of a toy in the dog's mouth, a rough house play between dog and child can have horrible consequences for all involved.
> Goldens rank VERY high on the reported dog bite list due mainly to people not remembering they are a DOG.


And I think they also consider the fact that with a 1 yr old child and 4 yr old child your time is committed to taking care of them, finding time for the puppy will be hard.

And yes, there are a lot of people who post on this board with puppy and young children, asking for help because it is hard, there are problems, and they need advice. 

I really encourage you to wait until you at least have one child in school to add a puppy to your family.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

To put things a little into perspective, there was just a post on FB by a breeder where a family (3 family members at home during the day and 2 more that were home after work) decided to return a puppy because he was just too much work. This was after they had only had him for 4 days. This was not a family with small children either.

I can understand that you are upset by breeders who just assume that you will not be able to take care of a puppy along with your young children. However, they may have run into a similar situation before and not had a good outcome. As evidenced by the case above, even a Golden puppy in a "perfect" situation can be too much for someone. It may not be fair for them to assume that you could not handle it but they are, as most have said, trying to protect their puppies.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Kimouflage -- keep at it! If you truly think you can make it work, tell the breeder how you plan to raise your mouthy and rambunctious with two young kids around who will be harder to train than the dog. Read up on the numerous threads here regarding young puppies and young kids and tell the breeder why your situation will be different. 

I live in an apartment with no yard and I knew this was going to be a strike against me when looking at reputable breeders. On the puppy application, before the breeders got a chance to question my living situation, I wrote that although my situation was less than ideal, my bf and I are a very active couple and pup would get the exercise it needs. I know that Molly gets more exercise than many dogs who live in houses with fenced yards.

I remember you on another thread, and I applaud you for trying to find the right breeder this time. Hang in there.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I feel like everyone has covered where breeder's are coming from pretty well. I do think that its still possible for you to bring a puppy into your home. I am a college student and the majority of breeders don't think college students are mature/stable/well equipped/financially capable for owning and raising a Golden. I completely agree with where all of them are coming from. I know how my friends are/behave and if they even thought about getting a puppy....we'd have a very serious talk. I knew I was an exception to the rule. I found a breeder who saw that, and me and her are the perfect fit. I went in with goals and questions/inquiries, with dreams/hopes etc. I was able to explain to her why I wasn't the rule and was the exception (financially sound, not a wild and crazy partying college student, etc). If you can find a breeder who feels this way about your situation then you will have found THE puppy for your home. This might be silly but I think we get rejected, etc for a reason, obviously the perfect puppy for your family wasn't at those houses. 

On another note, you asked about experiences with children. I don't have children, but I have 4 year old twin baby sisters. If I had to have Oliver and the two of them around me 24/7 I would literally just go walk off a cliff. That sounds a bit dramatic, but oh my god its SO hard. There are a million little toys that Oliver can easily ingest, there are little girls who hug a little too hard for their own good - a puppy/dog can only tolerate so much (like when it can't really breath anymore...). There are doors to the outside that can easily get opened/left opened by little children. There are razor sharp puppy teeth and nails that will scratch everyone at some point. There's a cute fluffy puppy who grew up into a 70lb puppy who the girls still think they can walk on a leash - and they do try stealing the leash from me. My sisters are also at eye level which makes it hard because they're "fun-size" for Oliver. I've worked very hard with Oliver and he is GREAT with the girls, but keeping him safe from them is another story. And all the while my mom is looking after my sisters (or she's supposed to be doing that...). I can't imagine having to keep an eye on all of them. Can it be done? Yes. Is it something I'd ever undertake? No. I would always be under constant stress and be exhausted all the time. I wouldn't be able to enjoy my puppy like I should (or life for that matter). I do think taking the advice to wait until at least one kid is in school would be a good idea. At least then you can have some sort of break, get some one on one time in with the puppy. The greatest thing in the world is the bond you form with your Golden. But how will that ever happen if you're split 3 ways between the kids and the dog? 

I do hope you figure out what's best for your family 


ETA: While my little sisters are as cute as buttons they are little devil children  so once again they might be more of an exception than the rule.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Kimouflage said:


> I know that Goldens are still dogs - they are still animals. I totally get that. I guess what I mean is that they are supposed to be better with children, as a general rule, versus other breeds. This is why I am trying to go with a reputable breeder, with dogs that are bred for temperament, so that I can have a better idea of what I am getting myself into. But some of these "reputable" breeders would have me go adopt an adult dog from a shelter, because it would be more mature, and that dog would have an unknown lineage and history. That doesn't seem right to me - definitely not looking out for our best interest, IMO.





Kimouflage said:


> Well, I have to be fair and say that neither recommended that I go to a shelter, but to find an older puppy or adult from a breeder, that failed on hips or for some other reason is not being kept. I don't think I want to start out with a dog who is destined for a hip replacement...and finding an older puppy is not an easy accomplishment. When I asked the one if she would hold onto a puppy for me until it was older (4-6 months was her recommendation), I got no reply.


I see the advice to consider an older dog as very much looking out for your best interest (in addition to looking out for the best interest of the puppies they produce, as someone else mentioned). I'm curious -- did any of them actually say that you should look for a dog that "failed on hips?" Or is that just what you assume is one of the main reasons a dog doesn't work out for a breeding program? I think most dogs who wash out do so far fore more innocuous reasons, especially when you look at ones that the breeder is choosing to rehome. I just don't see a whole lot of reputable breeders passing on the responsibility of a hip replacement to someone else. But if it turns out that the dog is a little short, or a little tall, or has a bite that's a little off, or doesn't have the best pigment, or doesn't have the straightest topline... is that really going to affect the dog as a pet? No. You do make a good point, though, that these dogs aren't the easiest to find. 

There is another option though, when considering an older dog -- rescue. Although you likely won't know the lineage or history of a rescued dog... what you will get is a wealth of information from the foster family. The dog will have been tested around children, other dogs, cats, all shapes and sizes of people, stressful situations, regular every day situations, etc, etc, etc. That's infinitely more than you'll be able to know if you bring any puppy home, even from the best breeding. Be warned that many rescues also have restrictions about adopting to families with young children... but some are willing to work on a case by case basis and sometimes the best way to get a foot in the door is to do some volunteer work with a local group. Just something to consider. 

If you do continue to pursue a puppy, then just go forward knowing that you will meet this resistance from some breeders. You hadn't expected it at first but it's not a surprise anymore. So steel yourself a little bit, know it may be coming, and realize that it's not something personal against you or your family. It's not a judgement on your parenting skills or your kids' behavior. It's just good people who feel an enormous responsibility to the innocent lives they've created. I applaud you for doing the research and looking into reputable breeders and hope that you will continue along that route. It will take work, it may take longer than you'd like, but you will find the right breeder. Best of luck with whatever path you choose!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Kimouflage (Jul 7, 2013)

On a side note, I plan to homeschool my children, so there is no plan to send them elsewhere for their education. Nice thought, though.

And yes, hip failure was the example given...


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

It sounds like you have the perfect home for a rescue! Then in 3 years or so, relish in the joy and incredible amount of hard work of getting a puppy. I think when you do finally get a puppy, you'll appreciate the gift that your rescue gave you. You'll still have a wonderful golden, and given her the best gift ever. An adult golden and little kids -priceless! Free (well, not really) babysitter!


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I just saw a reputable breeder with a 2 yo that didn't like showing. So they are out there, and they don't have to be ones with health problems. I wish I could remember where I saw that. They are in wisconsin, and spoken of highly on this forum.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If a dog does not clear hips, it does not mean he needs surgery. It simply means he should not be bred - and that is why he is placed in a pet home instead of staying with the breeder. 

You would not be breeding your dog (hopefully), so it should not be a problem. Odds are that the dog will be neutered before being placed in your home, so one less thing to worry about.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Kimouflage said:


> ..........And for families who have adopted a puppy while having small kids in the house, did you actually have issues?


I have three daughters ages 6 - 16. I brought home my first Golden puppy when my oldest daughter was 2 years old. I had grown up with shelties and my first dog of my own was a sheltie rescue. They were high energy dogs, but nothing prepared me for the mouthiness of a retriever pup. I was a stay at home mom and figured I had plenty of time to devote to training with my daughter going to mother's morning out a couple mornings a week. It didn't take me long to realize I needed help. I didn't even bother with obedience class, I went straight for the personal trainer. He wasn't bad, and had no real behavior or temperament issues, he was just a normal Golden puppy. We did go on to get his Canine Good Citizen and I could have done much more with him but simply didn't have time when I had two more kids. He turned out to be a great dog, but it was a major commitment of time and energy. 

I don't know how old your kids are, but for approximately the first two years of the puppy's life, it's like having another toddler. The puppy has to be watched constantly if he's not crated and if he doesn't receive a lot of daily exercise you will not be able to sit on the couch after you put your kids to bed and just watch a t.v. show. The pup wants to play if he's not sleeping. He must be crated or safely behind a baby gate whenever you want to switch the laundry, go to the bathroom or read to your kids and put them to bed. 

A busy mom has so many chores in addition to raising kids that the puppy can get pushed to the bottom of the priority list unless you are extremely committed to putting the puppy's needs immediately following your kids' and before most of your other chores. It's something a lot of people don't realize when they think about wanting a family dog. The puppy doesn't do a lot of giving back most of the day, like kids, they are sucking the energy out of you, they're not laying around being good. They're exploring the world and looking for entertainment. It's a lot. If you're a dog person and this puppy is really for you, your dream, go for it, you'll find a breeder if you stick with it. If you are wanting to do this just to have a family dog, you may want to wait another year or two.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

I raised a 3 year old and a Golden puppy AND worked part time and we all survived.

My son was 3 when we got Jorgee, and he did not complain half as much about her at 3 as he did about Roxxi at age 15!

When we got Roxxi last summer I was not working. I was however, watching my 6 (almost 7) year old niece. We did have some issues with my niece not understanding that Roxxi was a baby and not trained like her dog at home.

At one point I threatened both my husband AND son that I was going to return her to the breeder if they didn't stop complaining and start helping to fix the situation. They stopped complaining and started helping. I would never have returned her, but I might have made both of them live in the travel trailer until the biting was under control.

Long story short, I'm not sure what age is a good age to bring a new puppy home!


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## jacksilas (May 26, 2013)

Of course you should keep on trying to get a pup if your head agrees with your heart on the matter. Your choice and you know your life best.

I just gotta say, however, that we are raising a puppy whom we adopted from a family who couldn't cope with the jumping, nipping (the kids), training etc etc of the cute fluff ball they brought home. Sure they were busy, sure one of their kids had issues and so on. . . but bottom line, they had him for 6 weeks, it wasn't working for them. It broke their hearts (but relieved their heads) to let him go. 

Their loss was our gain. They would have to kill me to ever get him back. I love him more and more every day. But before and after work he is all I do.

He has been a LOT of work (and there are no kids here). A lot of work and he is probably the calmest puppy I have ever met. ((course we had the 6 weeks of nipping and jumping to undo. .. ).

Anyway, just saying. . .


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## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

Ellie was given up by a family who had a 2 year old. While they never admitted to it, it was clear to me she was in trouble a lot. Crated all the time, and likely in trouble around the toddler because she shied away from everything as a 5 month old pup. I'm not saying its not a good idea, but puppies can definitely be a handful. Even Ellie at 5 months was a handful for my 10 year old who'd often squeak, squeal, play on the floor, etc. She'd scratch him up in play. They claimed their son was allergic, which is possible, but they lived with her for over 3 1/2 months before deciding to rehome her. I imagine it was too much for them.

I rescued German shorthairs years ago and we did not adopt to families with children under the age of 10. Sporting breeds, which golden retrievers are, can be high energy and have a lot of demands on time before they they mature.




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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I had raised two German shepherds, two great pyreneeses and one shih tzu before we got Brady. My breeder had two rules, no children under four and no puppy if you had never raised a puppy before. When we brought Brady home, my youngest had just turned four, my other two girls were ten and nine. These kids were raised with three huge dogs.

I was shocked at how hard a golden puppy was with children. The mouthiness was awful. All my kids clothes were ruined with holes in the sleeves and pants. Their hands looked like hamburg. I really could see why people could so easily give up on their puppies and for the first time I understood my breeder's rules. She had been breeding for over 30 years. Also, when we were there, she had a young adult dog that she took back from the owners. The dog was on bed rest because a child had pushed him down the stairs.

She and her husband spent a lot of time with my kids showing them how to hold the puppy and walk the puppy etc. I believe she was evaluated them, and I really think she would have stopped the sale if they did anything she did not like.

Now as adults, my goldens are perfect.


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## itried (Jan 6, 2013)

I really feel like an adult dog would be a better solution. Or at least an older puppy, if you've tried your local golden retriever rescue sometimes older puppies do appear and their temperaments tend to better than those from breeders as rescues really do make sure they are well trained before going to their furever home.


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## Heathhanly (Jan 10, 2013)

I don't know but judging by the comments on this thread our first Golden was a dream. We brought her home from the breeder to a home with one four year old, an 18 month old with ADHD, and an intellectual disability, and a 6 month old. I had had dogs all my life and just assumed the puppy would fit in and the kids would learn how to treat her, and all would be well, and it was. She was great, loving and gentle and the kids survived unscathed. We didn't do any special training we just got on with it.

Paddy grew up with the kids and was our much loved family dog for 14 years.

The kids are all grown up now and I couldn't wait to get my next Golden, she's our big baby now, but I honestly feel she would really enjoy having a couple of children to run around with


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

And besides all of this, as I sit with Pearl and Lila on the dog couch in the early mornings, first playing then Pearl snuggling up to me, I think about the ability to bond closely with a golden if you have young children and busy busy busy. You would miss out on much of that, and so would the pup.

And to the poster that said everybody is excluded because of being single or having children, it might help to know that there is a huge population out there that is neither of those. Married, no kids, our dogs are our children. There are also those whose children have grown. There are a lot of us. And as I sit with Pearl in the mornings, and know that we did beat out another family for her, also because of our work schedule, our home/yard, and our active lifestyle, I am glad for us and for her. Yes, I'm a bit insulted at your comments, hence mine, but Pearl is going to have a glorious life with us even though we don't have kids. 

And as we are onto our 3rd golden pup, I can tell you that they are much easier than labs!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Many breeders set a hard rule about age of kids--often born of bad experiences. I had one family from my last litter who had had a hard time finding a breeder who would talk to them because of the age of their children (2 and 4 at the time.) They were friends with a breeder I knew who was no longer breeding (or they would have gone there!) They also realized that retriever puppies are not easy dogs (as much as the well-trained adults many see that attract them to the breed make people think they are easy dogs--they are not--they are highly intelligent, active and as a retrieving breed, highly mouth-oriented), and when they talked to me they were very realistic in their expectations.

I personally will not sell to a family with an infant as I just feel that is too much (like having twins!), but will consider a family with on older toddler. But it is not a given--and it is not a given with anyone! I want to meet the entire family and see how they interact with my dogs before I will approve them for a puppy. In the end, that family came an met me and the horde almost a year before the litter they got their pup from was born. I watched their interactions with my dogs (including a crazy 6 month old brat puppy) and how the parents regulated the children's behaviour. Based on that, I approved them, but by the time they got their pup, the younger girl was 3 years old, and the mom has told me she is glad the youngest was a bit older by the time Woody came home. 

For the same litter I had a family who sounded wonderful on paper come for a visit--their kids were 9, 11, and 12, with a SAHM. When they got to my home, there was no way they were getting a puppy. Those kids were all over my house, touching things up on the mantle, teasing dogs with toys, and the 9 year old SAT on Butch (thank God he has a stellar temperament). Through all of this the parents did NOTHING to rein in the kids. If they would not demand their children have boundaries and behave appropriately while in a strangers home (and at that one they needed to impress to qualify for a puppy) I could not imagine what a chaotic, structureless environment that home would have been for a puppy.

So my advice, when you contact breeders be open to waiting a bit for that right litter. Be open in your introduction letter about your circumstances, and explain how you intend to cope with the extra demands a puppy WILL create, as well as to the behaviour and upbringing of your children, and a willingness to come and meet breeders with your children so they can see for themselves.

The GRCA website has some excellent education materials linked on kid safety around dogs. I would start doing that education with your children NOW so that when you go to visit breeders and their dogs they can already demonstrate safe, properly controlled behaviour around dogs. That will go a long way to allaying a breeder's very real concerns.


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## dash24 (May 22, 2012)

We adopted our first dog/pup ever in January of this year. There is no way we could have had toddlers and raised the pup. The pup was very bitty and we thought about returning him because it was just difficult. We are very glad we did not follow through with returning him. If you can handle 3 babies and get the pup to 8 months or so, then more power to you and just find another breeder. Another poster suggested waiting until the kids are a little older and in school. That makes great sense. Remember, you want the best possible situation for you, your family and the dog. We waited over 15 years.

Just think about having three toddlers in your house - one with sharp teeth who needs to learn how to use them.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Kimouflage said:


> I know that Goldens are still dogs - they are still animals. I totally get that. I guess what I mean is that they are supposed to be better with children, as a general rule, versus other breeds.


Goldens are better with children in the sense that they are generally willing to put up with a lot of nonsense from children that would generally cause some other breeds of dogs to react in an aggressive way (Though you still want to keep children from doing things like pulling tails, poking in the eyes, etc.). Goldens also love to play and run around, and can blend right in with a "pack" of children running around a yard and such. Goldens tend to be "people" dogs as well, so a golden is more likely to bond with children who are sort of in their face rather than being overwhelmed by the attention.

But there can be some communication difficulties. For a golden puppy, if they see someone they like, which is most people, their natural reaction is going to be "Hey, let's run around and wrestle". That may involve jumping on or playfully biting (i.e. biting without intent to harm or to break skin) their friends in order to start the "fun". Many will also greet people by jumping on them and licking their faces.

This actually is not necessarily a problem given that puppies start small, as long as your children know what to expect and are not the type to start panicking or bursting into tears over a little light-hearted rough-housing from a puppy (Who will be the size of a full grown dog before it grows out of being a puppy, I should add). If I recall correctly, my reaction as a young child to my then-golden puppy's antics was something along the lines of "Why can't he bite us if he wants to bite us? He's not trying to hurt anyone and he seems to really enjoy it.". It's a situation where knowing your children and how they handle things is important.

I think the biggest problem we had with my first puppy was that he'd chew on the furniture a lot the first two years of his life and my father was only just barely talked out of taking him to the pound several times. The puppy I got as an adult didn't chew on furniture- he chewed on my arm.  Which I guess is better. Depends on your perspective, I suppose. Make sure you have a lot of stuff for the dog to chew on. They go through teething just like children, by the way. Land shark isn't much of an exaggeration. Some do seem to roam around looking for people to bite (Just keep in mind they are trying to play with you when they are doing this, in the way instinct and experience with their litter-mates tell/told them was appropriate), and can catch you by surprise with a bite to the back the leg or something (Again, with no intent to harm, they hold back. But it can hurt a little if you are sensitive to pain. Occasionally they can leave small marks.).

I'd absolutely encourage you to go get a puppy. As long as you go into it realizing what you're getting into and understanding that it is a commitment that can involve as much effort as a human child sometimes, it can be one of the best experiences of your life, and your children will always hold a special place in their heart for the dog they grew up with. The puppy I helped raise as a child gave me a lifelong love for golden retrievers.

I wouldn't let some breeders or some forum posters get your down. You don't really need anyone's approval, other than the one person who sells you the puppy, and you can find people who won't be picky about their buyers. Just go out and do what you want to do. I fully support you (For whatever support from an anonymous Internet person is worth  ).

What people are saying with an older dog is that maybe you can get a dog who is already trained and doesn't bite or jump or whatever. Some people do prefer that. On the other hand, you may simply be getting a full grown jumper who is more intimidating to your children (Even if you can't train your puppy out of jumping, by the time he grows larger, your children would be used to it). Also, while taking care of a full grown dog is easier, you miss out on the special experience of raising a puppy and watching him grow and develop, and bonding over the course of his entire lifetime (Minus the first eight weeks).

As you can probably tell, I am a "Must adopt an eight week puppy" person when it comes to what I personally prefer. But, then again, my current dog, now an adult, has probably always been kind of a surrogate child for me, and you already have children. I would say different strokes for different folks. Some people really find having a dog from it's early puppyhood until it's natural death in old age a key part of the experience (I have pictures of him all the way through to the present, though he's only a few years old so far). Other people are just like "Eh, give me a dog who's got some manners and doesn't need to be taken outside 12 times a day and house trained." (Which is _not_ a puppy). It's your call. I think you should do whatever you think is best for you and your family. Everything is a trade off.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I am so sorry you are experiencing this. The things you have stated are things that concern breeders. Some are really afraid of the children being too rough with the puppy or vice versa. Most breeders will allow you to have small children and will match the puppy accordingly. Some breeders will want to get to know your children as in the case with my breeder. There are people with infants enjoying her Goldens on her puppy page.  She believes strongly in children enjoying her dogs and so she also screens your children to make sure they will get along with her puppies. She sold me a calm puppy because of our 2 year old. Some breeders might be overreacting, but it's usually because they have had bad experiences. Usually though, Goldens and young children get along great together. Just look at all of the You Tube videos of babies and Goldens.  As for me, Mercy has been a bit rough with our son, now 4. He is autistic. We have to correct her. I am sure they will be best friends before too long. He gets annoyed mostly and will cry when Mercy takes a toy of his as if she were another child taking it. Mercy is a handful. It is not always easy raising a Golden pup. Mercy is my second dog , but first Golden and she is nothing short of challenging, but it is so worth it to me. Don't give up the search. Keep believing in yourself. There are plenty of breeders who sell puppies to families with small children. Good Luck!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I just came in from teaching STAR Puppy, and teach this several times a week. We have 38 pups this session, and it is my favorite class.

I think families with kids 6 and up do great, but some (not all) with tiny kids really are overwhelmed. They imagined the sweet relationship between the kids and the pup, but truthfully the adult must manage this relationship intensively for several months on both sides- teaching the kids how to treat the pup and the pup how to treat the kids. Plus, time must be set aside to have one-on-one time with just the puppy. This is alot, but some people definitely do it well.

I would not give a Lush pup to a first time dog owner with tiny kids, but would not rule out an experienced person. 

If there is one thing I do see as a problem, it is the doting couple who get a dog and love, love love him/her , but then a year or two later have human kids and lose interest in the dog. Of course, many people continue to value their dogs through the birth of their first child, but as a dog trainer I see enough people wanting to rehome/dump previously beloved dogs so that I would think twice about putting a puppy in that situation.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

lhowemt said:


> Married, no kids, our dogs are our children. There are also those whose children have grown. There are a lot of us. And as I sit with Pearl in the mornings, and know that we did beat out another family for her, also because of our work schedule, our home/yard, and our active lifestyle, I am glad for us and for her.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I notice I have gravitated to this type of home, with the addition that they have a dog sport they love or are experienced with retrievers. Another home I really love is the 9 or 10 year old junior handler- that kid in the 4H or who is already loving agility or dog shows- a golden pup and a 10 year old who is awesome with dogs and has great parent back up? Fun.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I have some friends who got a ridgeback puppy at the same time as I got Kenzie. They also have a little boy who had just turned 4 at the time.
It was a lot of work for them and a ridgeback is nowhere near as mouthy as a golden. For them a lot of the issues were because a 4 year old is so needy that when the 4 year old is crying about something and the puppy is whining to go out, who gets taken care of first? Then the puppy has an accident because he was being ignored. Or the bigger problem, and actually why I wouldn't bring Kenzie over for a very long time was because of all of the toys like cars and Legos that were all over the place all the time. Way too easy for a curious puppy to gobble up.
They actually had a pretty bad scare once. They had a get together with a bunch of friends. The puppy (now 6 months old) actually stayed at my house during the party. I dropped him off that night but they didn't get a chance to finish cleaning up yet. Mom had to run to the store so dad was supposed to be in charge of finishing putting food away while supervising child and dog. Little boy needed to go poop or something, I dont have kids but that is apparently a drop everything and attend to the child moment! Dad went with him. When he came back out the puppy had eaten a full plate if cocktail weenies toothpicks and all! Luckily he was fine.
I do think it can be done with the right person-commited, organized, and good at multitasking and staying focused. I've known others who have done it. Quite frankly they were just more capable of juggling things at the same time as my friends.
If you think you can do it and want to go with the breed that we call land shark as puppies! I still call Kenzie monster puppy at a year old. My last golden wasn't really the great adult she became until almost 3! Keep at it, you'll find a breeder willing to look at your situation without an automatic no.

ETA: the puppies are 15 months now and he is a very loved member of that family still! Everything eventually fell into place. The toys everywhere is still a concern for me (ridgebacks are NOT goldens when it comes to putting things in their mouths!). Whenever Kenzie goes over if I'm out of town they make a dog free zone where he can scatter all of his toys and try to keep the rest of the house retriever friendly!


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

There are plenty of breeders who will sell a puppy to a family with young children. We got our first golden when our son was a toddler(he is now 22). I also have a now 8 year old child and she has grown up with all our goldens and is wonderful socialization for our litters. All of our dogs absolutely adore her.

However, yes, people do need to realize that goldens are still dogs and there needs to be special care and consideration on the part of the breeder and the family who is going to have a puppy with young children. Young children should never be left unsupervised with ANY dog and yes, that includes a golden, even though goldens are usually wonderful with children. Every dog has its limits though and when the limits are reached, problems happen. The breeder needs to make sure that the puppy is one who has HIGH limits and will tolerate a lot. The owners need to be extra vigilant with the puppy and the children so that the puppy and the children are both safe.

Continue with your search-the right breeder and the right puppy are out there for you


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Ljilly28 said:


> If there is one thing I do see as a problem, it is the doting couple who get a dog and love, love love him/her , but then a year or two later have human kids and lose interest in the dog. Of course, many people continue to value their dogs through the birth of their first child, but as a dog trainer I see enough people wanting to rehome/dump previously beloved dogs so that I would think twice about putting a puppy in that situation.


This. I know several couples who fit this description to a t. It breaks my heart.  I get that priorities shift when kids enter the picture, but I'm perplexed that in some families the dog might take the backseat for a bit, but in other families, there is no more room at the inn, if you know what I mean. 

I have been in the married with no kids, dogs are like our kids category for the last 9 years. If and when the stars align and we have a baby, we will absolutely figure out how to be a family of 4. I look forward to my dog being a part of my kids' lives and vice versa. Right now, though, we're hoping to become a family of 4 through the addition of another puppy. Tee-hee.

To the OP - there was a thread on here recently by Caroline162 and her rescue dog Samson. She has 4 little kids and responded with dignity to several posters who questioned her sanity for wanting to get a dog with 4 kids, and her story had a VERY happy ending.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

My daughter was 2 when I decided I would like to add a golden puppy to our home. After walking away from the first breeder I chose (unreputable), I found a second breeder, who was reputable, and agreed to consider our family but wanted to meet my daughter first. After meeting my daughter, she agreed that she would be willing to allow us to have a puppy from her upcoming litter. 

During our wait for our puppy to be born, the breeder had another suggestion. One of her 4 1/2 year old breeding bitches was being retired and would we like to adopt her. My daughter adored this dog, as she had met her a number of times at the breeders. I realized that I was the one that wanted the puppy, not my daughter. This dog came into our home, with an OTCH titile, housebroken, crated trained, up to date on shots, she didn't chew things, she knew how to walk politely on leash, certfications on hips, elbows, heart and eyes, how to retriever a ball thrown by my daughter and well beyond the landshark stage. We were extremely blessed to have her for 12 very healthy years. (yup, she was almost 17 when we put her down).

When my daughter was 10 we adopted a 14 month old, and I was definately shell shocked at how much work she was. Two years after that we got a 8 week old puppy, and she was even more work.

I didn't originally go through Golden Rescue, because I wanted a dog with a known history because the dog would be interacting with my young child.

Good luck with your puppy search.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

The big trigger that we had with Brady and his mouthiness was not with my 4 year old. He stopped biting her earlier on, it was my two older children. It was the little girl squealing that they did when he would come running after them as a little landshark. It would just encourage him more. It was them that I had to train from the squealing. Funny thing is to this day, my oldest is now sixteen and Brady is 6, and every once in a while we puts on that crazy shark face and starts wrestling with her. She screams, and he mouths her, but now he knows not to use his teeth, and the second I walk into the room he pretends nothing is happening.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Millie'sMom said:


> During our wait for our puppy to be born, the breeder had another suggestion. One of her 4 1/2 year old breeding bitches was being retired and would we like to adopt her. My daughter adored this dog, as she had met her a number of times at the breeders. I realized that I was the one that wanted the puppy, not my daughter. This dog came into our home, with an OTCH titile, housebroken, crated trained, up to date on shots, she didn't chew things, she knew how to walk politely on leash, certfications on hips, elbows, heart and eyes, how to retriever a ball thrown by my daughter and well beyond the landshark stage. We were extremely blessed to have her for 12 very healthy years. (yup, she was almost 17 when we put her down).


That is a wonderful story, and wow what a find that dog was. I think many, many breeders have amazing dogs they might place to just the right home.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm probably late to the party, but I thought I'd add my bit.

Maxwell came home in late February, and I have 3 kids--13, 6, and 4 at the time.

My kids are very well behaved compared to the average kids I see out and about and we get comments all the time on how well behaved and respectful they are.

That being said, it was hard work integrating my 4 year old and Maxwell. Totally worth it, but hard, hard work. I honestly can't imagine trying to keep up with an 18 month old _and_ my 4 year old in those very early weeks/months.

That may not be what you want to hear, but it's an honest assessment. 

I think the temptation is to take what the breeders said to you to mean that you aren't capable of caring for your own kids and/or a puppy. And don't all of us parents flare up when people suggest that? I would implore you to take the emotional side out of it, and ask yourself if they might have a point?

I have not doubt that someone, somewhere will sell you a puppy. It may not be a reputable breeder, but I'm sure you could find a puppy mill to cash in on your willing checkbook. I hope you don't go that route.

I would suggest that you wait two years. With super young kiddos that time will fly by. Our 6 year old was/is completely enamored with Maxwell--so your older child will still be young enough to make those lifelong memories of a childhood bond that only a child and dog can create. And your younger child will actually remember the puppy come home. I think you will have a much greater chance of creating a successful home for a puppy if you are just a little patient.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I was one of those on another thread voicing my concern at getting a pup and having young children... My mentor across the board would not sell a pup to anyone with kids under the age of five. I got my second golden when my very well behaved boys were 2 years nine months and the other was nine months. What a job! Puppies can pee every ten minutes... I had to orchestrate taking the pup out with keeping my kids safe when I did.. It was very hard and difficult. But we all survived... The youngest boy and my puppy were eating crayons at the same time! I work with people who have given up their cats when their kids are under one year and cats are so much easier! You have to consider who is watching your youngest ones when in a split second the pup has to go out. Or when the pup is a land shark because the kids are energetic and the pup is happily chasing them and nipping at them....


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## keeperdog (May 14, 2013)

When my husband was looking for another Lab, he had recently lost his 13 year old and his other Lab was 11, the breeder of his 2 girls refered us to a fellow club member of her. All was fine and good until she found out we both worked full time and at that point she didn't want to place a puppy with us. Now i know being in a crate all day isn't the best solution so we had planned on the puppy going into work with my husband to work a few days a week. This breeder never checked with our vet or any other references just decided since we both worked one of her babies couldn't be placed with us. In order for us to be able to care for our animals for their entire lives and give them all they needed it was necessary that we both work. The big picture wasn't the first several months but the next 12 + years. Sometimes I think breeders are too quick to make decisions without getting to know the families. Don't give up....my kids were quite young when we got our first Golden. They learned to respect the dogs and we never had an issue.


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## Ripley16 (Jan 26, 2012)

I think that a rescue is a fabulous idea. I have no experience with kids and puppies myself, but I know my parents got our beautiful GSD Lady when I was 3 and my sister was 4. She was a fabulous dog, and was no trouble, but honestly didn't get the attention and training she deserved when she was young. Once she was about 1 or 2 years old, she was the best, and if there would have been a fire in the house, she would have hauled us out of there. She truly believed that she was our mother . Whenever we went into our tree house, she would sprint in circles until she could see us, and then sit there and watch us the whole time. She was the absolute perfect dog with young kids. 

I do believe she may have been an anomaly though, because many young pups would have been a lot more trouble than Lady was ( I have to add, we got her at 11 weeks, and she came completely potty trained!). She did manage to tear apart and destroy a hot tub cover when she was 6 months old, as well as a brand new bike (ate all of the plastic on it!), but I digress. She was pretty much the easiest puppy ever from what I have herd, but it's unlikely for another Lady to come along as a puppy. This is why I would suggest a rescue or a trained older dog from a breeder. I have 2 little cousins (1 and 3) and Ripley is amazing with them...now. As a puppy, she would have been traumatized by the 3 year old. He loves her and calls her "Prickly", but has a toy lawnmower, and to make her move, will slam it into the her while she is sleeping to wake her up and come play. She obediently goes and plays with him happily, but to a small pup, this could have been a problematic situation. 

If you truly believe you are ready for a pup now, go for it. Just be aware of why these breeders have hesitations with placing one of their babies in your home. I truly hope you can prove those 2 breeders who denied you wrong, and be the best puppy owner ever, but just warning, that it will be stressful for a while with balancing everything. When I got Ripley 2 years ago, I was in 2nd year University (in the middle of finals may I add... in the winter. Fab idea ) and I found that very hard to balance and I couldn't imagine doing that with 2 young children. Luckily, my family loves Ripley as much as I do, and will take the load when she is too much for me. A support system with a puppy is also invaluable. If you have a solid one, you are truly "golden"


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## goodog (May 6, 2013)

*Getting your ducks lined up*

Id vote for sleepless nights-lots of effort and the pup is part of your family. Im not a breeder hence no "dog" in this fight but its rather unfortunate that some breeders say NO to families when goldens are wonderful family dogs-great with kids and a teacher of responsibility. 

I do understand a breeders taking this position. This is a big investment for them. It takes years of effort to produce a pup that has both an excellent temperament and honors the golden retriever as dogs. Too much reckless breeding happens. 

The key is you need to have all of your ducks in a row to make this work well for people and pup. Consider the age of your kids and the amt of time you are willing to put into your dog. If you want one that is well behaved --that first year is LONG but the pay off is terrific.
Good luck


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## eleni (Oct 10, 2013)

I think that anyone who wants a puppy, golden retriever or any other breed for that matter, and is responsible and prepared to take care of the puppy and love it as another member of the family, should be able to get the puppy he/she wants. Assuming that the person wanting to adopt the puppy is a responsible adult and knows what to expect with a baby dog, nobody should be allowed to refuse to sell him/her a puppy, "screen" him or her, "reject or accept" him or her, or impose on him/her what to do or not do. I agree that a priori, and with no other information, a first time dog owner with very small children is not the best case possible. But then again, they might be, if they have researched enough, are responsible and caring enough and are prepared to go for it. Nobody should be ruled out from being able to have a dog or buy a puppy, just because they have young children, are married or not married, have a large home (with stairs?) or a flat, a yard or no yard, are working or unemployed, are too busy, too social, not social enough....the list is never ending! This may be one of the reasons that people determined to buy and care for a puppy are forced to turn away from "reputable" breeders and buy from pet shops, craiglists and puppy mills. They have no other option left.
Anyway, I could rant and vent forever on this issue, but I got my first golden retriever when one of my sons was 4 years old and the second...6 months old. My younger son bonded instantly with the puppy, they played and cuddled together and it was up to us, parents, to regulate their play and take care of nipping, biting, jumping and all the "terrible" things that may happen between a small child and a puppy. In spite of the fact that we were both working full-time, we did a pretty good job, the puppy was eventually trained ad turned out to be a wonderful dog, and nobody was mortally hurt or traumatized for life. My older son was another matter. He turned out to be jealous of the puppy, apparently because contrary to what most breeders may think, we "loved the dog more than we loved him....". He never managed to bond well with our first dog because he always considered it to be "our" dog, not a family dog. When she died a while ago of old age, we had a family council and decided that we would only get a new golden puppy if the whole family was committed to loving it, training it and taking care of it. Muffin came to our house 6 weeks ago and she couldn't be a happier and better taken care of dog. Apart from my husband and myself, both my sons, now aged 11 and 15, take turns training her, walking her and feeding her and play with her whenever they can. Golden retrievers are meant to be family dogs, they love to be part of the pack and participate in all family activities. It would be a shame to refuse a puppy the fun of living in a loving family with small children and the family of having the golden pup of their choice, on the ground that there are...children! I do believe that the fact that many reputable breeders have such long waiting lists, lead them to adopt an ever stricter list of criteria which, in many cases, do not help the puppies or the families involved. I really agree that you should get a puppy if you know what to expect and are prepared to cope with it. Keep on searching, do not give up and do not let anyone talk you into getting an older dog if that's not what you want. I am sure you will find your dream puppy soon


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

WOW this is an old thread and I wonder what finally happened with the OP's search. I hope the right situation finally came along.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am probably just not cut out to be a breeder, bc I can't see handing a puppy over to a stranger. In theory, I get it, but when in comes down in practice to lifting a puppy into the arms of someone taking her home forever, I really want to know the person. I do think many awesome homes have young kids, and actually they are in care-taking mode already. However, I don't think anyone has a "right" to any puppy bc the breeder has to give the puppy into the home in which she has the most trust by her own lights.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

When my boys were 7 and 10 we got a sheltie pup," Willie". Looking back, they were the perfect age for a dog. The 10 yr old could help out with some of the dog chores, and the 7 yr old would give hours of attention. 
One thing you need to consider with small children is how you will manage to get the puppy out for walks etc.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

As someone with 3 Goldens and a 4 month old infant, I have some recent experience here. Our dogs are certainly a priority for us. But (and this is a big but) the baby still comes first, she just does. She has to, she's a baby. 

Right now our dogs are exercised, but if I'm being honest, probably could use a little more. They get a lot of attention, but certainly less than before the baby arrived. There are just not enough hours in the day right now. I need more time for myself, more time to do things around the house, more time with my husband, etc. A puppy needs to be the top priority for awhile in order to effectively be housebroken and socialized. We would not be able to do that right now, and that's ok. This would just be the worst possible time for us to get a puppy, in my opinion. 

Will it be great for our daughter to grow up with our Goldens? Of course it will, but our youngest (Smooch) is 20 months old. She still, even at almost 2 years old, sometimes doesn't always understand how to be gentle with the baby. We taught them all to "leave it" as puppies and used that command regularly when our daughter first came home. Kira and Jack (2 and 4 years old, respectively) understood much quicker. Smooch is learning too but Goldens are not born well mannered, it takes time, work and maturity for many of them. I cringe when I see photos of babies and toddlers laying on or "riding" dogs on Facebook. Even our tolerant, loveable and even tempered dogs should not be forced to endure coat/ear/tail pulling from our children. Even the most even tempered dog can unintentionally injure a baby. I often think that I would hate to be a statistic in that regard, so for the time being we keep the baby away from the dogs for the most part. 

If we ever produce a litter I will probably not sell a puppy to someone with an infant or young toddler, mostly because I've been there. I know how much work it is to raise a well mannered, well adjusted puppy. I also know how hard it is to manage your time with the needs of a young child. It is not a dig against people with young children, it's just the truth. There is no "right" to a puppy and breeders can certainly use the age of children as a factor. Breeders are free to prioritize the needs of the puppy and can sell to one family over another purely because they think it will be the best fit for that puppy. 

There will always be stories of the families with young toddlers or infants who raised the perfect puppy. I often think those people were lucky. Lucky the puppy didn't injure the child, lucky the child didn't injure the puppy. As I said above, we are not willing to take that risk and I would not be willing to risk the life of a puppy I raised either. So this was my long winded way of saying that eventually we may be one of those mean breeders who won't sell to families with young children, but I'm totally ok with that label. 


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

My first 2 dogs I got years before I had a child, and although they took somewhat of a backseat to my son when he was an infant, they were certainly still one of my top priorities. Having said that, I could not imagine having a very small child and a puppy. We got our youngest GSD when my son was 4 (and believe me, my breeder expressed concern about it and grilled me on how it would work out logistically - I think the only reason she agreed to give us one of her pups was because of my previous experience with dogs) and that was more work than I anticipated! I don't think that I could blame a breeder for being concerned about placing a pup in a house with young children simply because of the possibility of spreading the adults in the household too thin.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

eleni said:


> I think that anyone who wants a puppy, golden retriever or any other breed for that matter, and is responsible and prepared to take care of the puppy and love it as another member of the family, should be able to get the puppy he/she wants. Assuming that the person wanting to adopt the puppy is a responsible adult and knows what to expect with a baby dog, nobody should be allowed to refuse to sell him/her a puppy, "screen" him or her, "reject or accept" him or her, or impose on him/her what to do or not do.


So you think a breeder should be forced to sell their puppies to whoever comes along and claims to be responsible? That the breeder (or rescue) shouldn't have the right to screen the potential owners? 

Rescues get the same complaint as reputable breeders about being discriminating about who qualifies to adopt. The qualifications generally come from past experience with prior adopters/buyers. They are there to try to make sure that a forever home is found, not just a temporary, until something else comes up, home.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Here is my concern....

It's not the time required or the commitment required, that is obvious. My concern is a mother's basic instinctive protection of her child. Which is as it should be. But how fair is it to a puppy? Undoubtedly and I am certain universally, it will be the puppy scolded for making the baby cry, regardless of whether or not it was the baby who innocently and without malice played too rough with the puppy. Because neither the baby nor the puppy understand restraint. And because nobody has got eyes in the back of her/his head and cannot possibly see every single situation as it happens. 

A mom will not scold a baby for pulling a dog's ear and making the dog snap. A mom will blame the dog. And it is a natural response. But it is not a fair response. And there goes the dog, at best back to the breeder and at worst to animal control, with a history of biting babies. 

That is not an exaggeration. It is a natural, if unfair response. We protect the babies from the dogs yet forget to protect the dogs from the babies. Little fingers in dogs' eyes, pulling ears, pulling tails, stumbling and falling on a sleeping dog and startling him can all cause the dog to bite. And moms will blame the dog. 

I remember when I was looking for a puppy. When I explained that I worked 16 hours away from home some folks here said I should not have a dog. But I got a doggy day care as a result of that voiced objection here. I mitigated my negative situation by having Max and Billy at a doggy day care they love. I took the forum's objections to heart. Their concern was the well being of the dog, however unfair I thought it was. Similarly, a breeder's responsibility is to the dog because it will be the dog who will be blamed, placed in a shelter, and seemed unadoptable due to whatever incident. 

However unfair it may seem, I believe that a puppy and small children raised together has a higher risk of a dog being turned in or receiving less attention. If it has to be a puppy, then let the children be old enough to know how to respect a dog. 


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## eleni (Oct 10, 2013)

> Undoubtedly and I am certain universally, it will be the puppy scolded for making the baby cry, regardless of whether or not it was the baby who innocently and without malice played too rough with the puppy. Because neither the baby nor the puppy understand restraint. And because nobody has got eyes in the back of her/his head and cannot possibly see every single situation as it happens.
> 
> A mom will not scold a baby for pulling a dog's ear and making the dog snap. A mom will blame the dog. And it is a natural response. But it is not a fair response. And there goes the dog, at best back to the breeder and at worst to animal control, with a history of biting babies.


Well, maybe I am an exception but it was always my children that got scolded for annoying or hurting the puppy, not the opposite. It is a parent's responsibility to teach his/her kids how to treat a puppy/dog/pet or any other animal with care and respect and the sooner they learn it the better people they will be as grown ups. Obviously, a mother will try and protect her child if she thinks it is being threatened, but what kind of person would consider a puppy as a "threat"?


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Lilliam said:


> Here is my concern....
> 
> It's not the time required or the commitment required, that is obvious. My concern is a mother's basic instinctive protection of her child. Which is as it should be. But how fair is it to a puppy? Undoubtedly and I am certain universally, it will be the puppy scolded for making the baby cry, regardless of whether or not it was the baby who innocently and without malice played too rough with the puppy. Because neither the baby nor the puppy understand restraint. And because nobody has got eyes in the back of her/his head and cannot possibly see every single situation as it happens.
> 
> ...


I disagree. Anyone with some basic knowledge of animal behavior would not blame a dog for snapping at a child that pulls its ear. I drilled into my husband when we had a kid that he better help me in teaching our son how to behave around dogs, because if the dog ever did bite our child, it would be *our* fault and not the dog's. If the dogs are barking and wake my sleeping child, that's my fault for not having dealt with the situation properly in advance. I certainly realize that not everyone will feel the way I do, but I don't think it's universal by any means.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I think one other situation should be taken into consideration. When you have little children you also tend to have little toys, little clothes and food dropped on the floor etc which is not exactly safe for the puppy.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Claudia M said:


> I think one other situation should be taken into consideration. When you have little children you also tend to have little toys, little clothes and food dropped on the floor etc which is not exactly safe for the puppy.


A fair point but again, if you have knowledge of dogs, you take these things into account and prepare for them. Crate the puppy when you are feeding the baby, only allow baby toys in the nursery and don't allow the puppy in there. etc. Adds more work to the equation though, for sure.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

eleni said:


> Well, maybe I am an exception but it was always my children that got scolded for annoying or hurting the puppy, not the opposite. It is a parent's responsibility to teach his/her kids how to treat a puppy/dog/pet or any other animal with care and respect and the sooner they learn it the better people they will be as grown ups. Obviously, a mother will try and protect her child if she thinks it is being threatened, but what kind of person would consider a puppy as a "threat"?


A toddler has no more cognitive reasoning skills to get the "if this then that" concept than has a dog. 

A toddler bitten by a puppy or dog will get the benefit of the doubt that will be denied the puppy or the dog. 

I have read plenty of threads in this very forum about a puppy being "aggressive." Fact is that the dog will be blamed more often than a toddler. Dogs go off to the backyard or packed off to animal control. 


http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...8-denied-because-kids.html&ss=4477j2654723j16

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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> I disagree. Anyone with some basic knowledge of animal behavior would not blame a dog for snapping at a child that pulls its ear. I drilled into my husband when we had a kid that he better help me in teaching our son how to behave around dogs, because if the dog ever did bite our child, it would be *our* fault and not the dog's. If the dogs are barking and wake my sleeping child, that's my fault for not having dealt with the situation properly in advance. I certainly realize that not everyone will feel the way I do, but I don't think it's universal by any means.


I disagree. 

In situations of dog bites it is the dog who loses, every single time. It is in fact universal because in cases of dog bites no child ever gets shipped away, while it is the dogs go off to animal control. Therefore it is universal that the dog pays the ultimate price, having a "biter" label attached to him. However unfairly. 

I am NOT suggesting that a child should be sent away. I am stating that the child, protected by his/parents, WILL receive protection while the dog by virtue of being an animal will lose, if push comes to shove. 


http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html


Dog bites and children 
50% of dog attacks involved children under 12 years old
82% of dog bites treated in the emergency room involved children under 15 years old2
70% of dog-bite fatalities occurred among children under 10 years old5
Bite rates are dramatically higher among children who are 5 to 9 years old2
Unsupervised newborns were 370 times more likely than an adult to be killed by a dog5
65% of bites among children occur to the head and neck2
Boys under the age of 15 years old are bitten more often than girls of the same age2



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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Lilliam said:


> I disagree.
> 
> In situations of dog bites it is the dog who loses, every single time.


I don't disagree that the dog probably loses *most* of the time, I just shy away from blanket statements and over generalizations like that. I fully realize that the majority of people do not have basic knowledge of animal behavior and will blame a dog if their child is bitten, I was just pointing out that that's not always the case - I am living proof of my point.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

No one is FORCED to buy from pet shops and puppy mills. If they want to support animal abuse and irresponsible breeding practices, well, that is their choice.

If a puppy bites another person's child I hate to think about who will suffer the consequences.

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## eleni (Oct 10, 2013)

We should also keep in mind that we are talking about Golden Retrievers and they...almost never bite. Actually as you all probably know, any sign of aggressive behavior in these dogs is considered a fault! I have had 4 Golden Retrievers up to now and NONE of them EVER bit a human, adult, baby, toddler or any age, however much they may have been provoked. Goldens LOVE children and are very tolerant of them, not because there is a character trait that makes them prone to suffering, but because they adore children and very rarely consider their behavior threatening. All of my dogs loved my children to death, never even growled at them could never be happier than when included in the party. Then again, being a dog lover and owner all my life, I was careful to teach my children how to be careful and respectful of dogs at a very early age. What you probably refer to as biting is puppy nipping and mouthing but that cannot be considered real biting and they soon grow out of it if you are consistent in redirecting them. Again, I might be a living exception, but giving a dog away to a shelter would be equivalent for me to giving a child away for adoption!


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> I don't disagree that the dog probably loses *most* of the time, I just shy away from blanket statements and over generalizations like that. I fully realize that the majority of people do not have basic knowledge of animal behavior and will blame a dog if their child is bitten, I was just pointing out that that's not always the case - I am living proof of my point.


But no, it is the dog who loses every single time.

No child gets put in the backyard, no child gets put in a crate, no child is sent away. 

Universally, it is the animal that is removed. Therefore universally it is the animal who loses. I'm not saying that an animal is removed every single time, I am saying that the one that is removed is the animal. 

Therefore it is the animal who has the most to lose regardless of the circumstances. Because parents defend children as they should and they are not disposable, but tragically, looking at shelters, animals are.

That is my point. That a toddler cannot cognitively grasp "if I pull the dog's ear, the dog will turn and bite my hand therefore I should not pull the dog's ear." A toddler is not advanced cognitively to grasp that anymore than the puppy can grasp "if the toddler pulls my ear I must not bite because there is the possibility that I will be sent to the backyard." It is unfair to ask a dog that kind of reasoning. All a dog can grasp is "I do this in this situation and a cookie magically appears." They don't get the "if this then that." Therefore that kind of reasoning is out of the realm of what a dog can do. They can't reason, they can learn appropriate responses. But that is taught. And a puppy and a baby together haven't got the cognitive skills for either to behave in the appropriate way.

A five or six year old can in fact understand "if this then that" and a dog has learned "I do this in this situation and a cookie magically appears or a pet suddenly happens." Therefore the appropriate pairing is a child who understands cause and effect and the respect that the dog should have. Because it is an animal and cognitively speaking it is not so advanced as to be able to reason. It can only perform learned behaviours.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

eleni said:


> We should also keep in mind that we are talking about Golden Retrievers and they...almost never bite. Actually as you all probably know, any sign of aggressive behavior in these dogs is considered a fault! I have had 4 Golden Retrievers up to now and NONE of them EVER bit a human, adult, baby, toddler or any age, however much they may have been provoked. Goldens LOVE children and are very tolerant of them, not because there is a character trait that makes them prone to suffering, but because they adore children and very rarely consider their behavior threatening. All of my dogs loved my children to death, never even growled at them could never be happier than when included in the party. Then again, being a dog lover and owner all my life, I was careful to teach my children how to be careful and respectful of dogs at a very early age. What you probably refer to as biting is puppy nipping and mouthing but that cannot be considered real biting and they soon grow out of it if you are consistent in redirecting them. Again, I might be a living exception, but giving a dog away to a shelter would be equivalent for me to giving a child away for adoption!


There are breeders who breed for conformation and therefore the true temperament and those dogs can be trusted. There are breeders who are out to make a buck and who could not care less about conformation or temperament, but cash. 

There are goldens who bite. Goldens are listed as dogs that do bite. 

Additionally there is the concept of the curse of the good dog. 

The Curse of the Good Dog | Crates and Cribs

And there were stories of golden retrievers making "bite" lists.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/91597-3-bite-list.html


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Lilliam, I think we may be arguing semantics to a certain degree. And I guess if you feel that in a situation where a puppy bites a child and is consequently put in a crate the puppy *loses* then you are right. 

I would agree with a previous poster that pointed out the issue of someone's dog biting the child of another person being a huge point of concern. If my dog bites my kid, that is great that I realize it's my fault and the dog suffers no consequences, but if my son's friend is at my house and my dog bites the other child, I don't suspect I'd have much luck convincing the parent of that other child that my dog was not at fault. I wouldn't care to be in a situation like that.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have said it before, it was my job(and my husband's) to keep our kids and dogs safe. We got our second golden when both boys were under the age of three. I went on to get a UD on that girl. It was definitely not easy and initially not fun. My kids grew up with the utmost respect for our dogs...they were never allowed to hug(choke) them, step on them, pull on them, etc.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Lilliam said:


> There are breeders who breed for conformation and therefore the true temperament and those dogs can be trusted. There are breeders who are out to make a buck and who could not care less about conformation or temperament, but cash.
> 
> There are goldens who bite. Goldens are listed as dogs that do bite.
> 
> ...


True too. Every dog has a threshold, I don't care what breed they are or how sweet natured the dog is. When I worked in an animal hospital in college, we had a client bring their 12 year old Golden in - the dog had never so much growled at anyone in its life but had become old an arthritic in recent years and had snapped at the friend of their son for being too rough (the child was around the age of 10 or so). The owners wanted to know what they could do with the dog because they were concerned she might bite, and they were considering putting her down because of it. It was a sad situation that they couldn't see any other way to handle the issue (like, oh, I don't know, have a safe place for the dog to go away from kids when needed).


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I dont believe every family out there deserves a dog.... The ones who properly train there children to respect the dog is one thing, but I dont believe any child should over climb on a dog, interrupt the dog while eating, pull on its ears, tail or bear hug a dog or lay on a dog...Yes goldens are great family dogs, but still is a dog and if put in the wrong situation they could bite, even if they have never done it before. Letting kids do this to any dog let alone a golden is my biggest pet peeve. I have turned down many families looking for a golden for the reasons I posted.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Lilliam, I think we may be arguing semantics to a certain degree. And I guess if you feel that in a situation where a puppy bites a child and is consequently put in a crate the puppy *loses* then you are right.
> 
> I would agree with a previous poster that pointed out the issue of someone's dog biting the child of another person being a huge point of concern. If my dog bites my kid, that is great that I realize it's my fault and the dog suffers no consequences, but if my son's friend is at my house and my dog bites the other child, I don't suspect I'd have much luck convincing the parent of that other child that my dog was not at fault. I wouldn't care to be in a situation like that.



Yes, I do feel that the puppy loses when he is scolded when he bites a baby, however innocently. Because as parents it is our job to defend a child.

I'm not saying that a baby is malicious in tugging an ear, but the consequence can be very negative to a dog. A responsible adult would not put a child in that situation but unfortunately we know that not all adults are responsible. Yet they expect the dog to be an angel every single time.

There are so many dogs turned over that I fully understand a breeder setting an age. I also understand a rescue setting an age. Because *their* responsibility is to the dog.

I was denied a retired racing greyhound before I got Max. I thought that was horribly unfair. Catch 22 - I've got a great job and I can offer a stable home because I work in a great job making a great salary BUT because I am away from home I cannot offer that home to a retired greyhound. Some folks here objected to my working so many hours away from home, which forced me into seeing that it was *my* situation that was not optimal to the dog. Therefore I had to make a change to make sure the *I* changed *my* situation to make my home the optimal environment for a dog. So the answer was doggy day care when I work outside the home which is three to four times a week, since I work from home one or two times a week. The objection forced me into seeking a solution that was best *for the dog.* And that is what a responsible breeder seeks. The best possible home *for they dog.*

If I were a breeder, which I will never be because I simply am not intelligent enough to be one, I would have similar restrictions on the homes where I would place the puppies. And frankly, after the whole Puppy Doe tragedy, I don't think I could EVER place a puppy.


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## eleni (Oct 10, 2013)

> I dont believe every family out there deserves a dog.... The ones who properly train there children to respect the dog is one thing, but I dont believe any child should over climb on a dog, interrupt the dog while eating, pull on its ears, tail or bear hug a dog.Yes goldens are great family dogs, but still is a dog and if put in the wrong situation they could bite, even if they have never done it before. Letting kids do this to any dog let alone a golden is my biggest pet peeve. I have turned down many families looking for a golden for the reasons I posted.
> __________________


Totally agree. That's why in my first post I was referring to "responsible" people who know what to expect when buying a puppy and are decided to commit. It is a parent's responsibility to teach a child, however young, how to treat a dog. It is called socialization. Like you teach even a toddler not to bully other kids or grab their toys or punch them in the face, you teach them at a very early age how to love and respect dogs and other animals. It can be done.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Every time I read something like this, I want to introduce the poster to my brother-in-law's Golden. Jesse came from a good breeder, was socialized from day one, was never in any way abused or mistreated, and he hated kids from the day he was born.
NEVER assume that Goldens LOVE children. THAT'S how kids get bit! I am the person who yells at parents when their children run up to Max (who adores kids, by the way) and gives them a lecture when they say, "ALL Goldens love kids!" NO THEY DON'T!



eleni said:


> We should also keep in mind that we are talking about Golden Retrievers and they...almost never bite. Actually as you all probably know, any sign of aggressive behavior in these dogs is considered a fault! I have had 4 Golden Retrievers up to now and NONE of them EVER bit a human, adult, baby, toddler or any age, however much they may have been provoked. Goldens LOVE children and are very tolerant of them, not because there is a character trait that makes them prone to suffering, but because they adore children and very rarely consider their behavior threatening. All of my dogs loved my children to death, never even growled at them could never be happier than when included in the party. Then again, being a dog lover and owner all my life, I was careful to teach my children how to be careful and respectful of dogs at a very early age. What you probably refer to as biting is puppy nipping and mouthing but that cannot be considered real biting and they soon grow out of it if you are consistent in redirecting them. Again, I might be a living exception, but giving a dog away to a shelter would be equivalent for me to giving a child away for adoption!


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

eleni said:


> Totally agree. That's why in my first post I was referring to "responsible" people who know what to expect when buying a puppy and are decided to commit. It is a parent's responsibility to teach a child, however young, how to treat a dog. It is called socialization. Like you teach even a toddler not to bully other kids or grab their toys or punch them in the face, you teach them at a very early age how to love and respect dogs and other animals. It can be done.


There are cognitive thresholds that limit what a child or a dog or any animal can learn. A toddler, as I've mentioned many times, cannot grasp "don't pull on Buddy's ear because he will get hurt and he will bite you." 

Let's define a toddler. A toddler is up to an eighteen month old. A twelve month old is not capable to cognitively grasp consequences beyond the most basic, "hot ouch" or "cry=sippy cup." The "if this then that" is beyond them. Therefore there is an age limit as to what is safe with a puppy or a dog. A puppy's little teeth can inflict damage. Not enough to kill anybody of course. But enough to leave marks or to rip clothes. And I'm sorry, I just don't accept that a puppy won't be scolded for drawing blood, however innocently. I just don't accept that a mother will look a golden puppy's scratches and not say "NO!" to a puppy who, in his mind, was only playing. It is human nature.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

eleni said:


> Totally agree. That's why in my first post I was referring to "responsible" people who know what to expect when buying a puppy and are decided to commit. It is a parent's responsibility to teach a child, however young, how to treat a dog. It is called socialization. Like you teach even a toddler not to bully other kids or grab their toys or punch them in the face, you teach them at a very early age how to love and respect dogs and other animals. It can be done.


How is a breeder to determine if the family is indeed responsible? A puppy app, phone calls, interview, references? None of which identify those that aren't really in touch with the reality of.their.life and situation. Most people think they provide a good home to a dog, just like every town and state thinks they are special, it is normal to inflate ourselves when trying to get something we want. The difficulty in discerning this is what makes some breeders have generic criteria. Even if you are different they have no way to know. Just as some kids may be mature enough to vote or drive early, but the rule is in place for greatest (greater?) assurance of success.

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## eleni (Oct 10, 2013)

> The difficulty in discerning this is what makes some breeders have generic criteria. Even if you are different they have no way to know


Isn't that unfair and discriminating against families with small kids that are responsible and are just dying to have a puppy and care for it? How are such people supposed to find a puppy if most reputable breeders reject them on the basis of the generic criterion "no pups with infants and toddlers"? I really believe that one of the most valuable gifts I have given my kids is allowing them to grow up in a home full of pets (1 or 2 goldens, 1 or 2 cats, a rabbit and 4-8 goldfish most of the time), all of which were considered family members and no one was allowed to hurt them, bully them or show disrespect or ignore their feelings. I really believe this is a life lesson and I feel sorry for children who have grown up without a pet. So what options are there for such people?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

eleni said:


> Isn't that unfair and discriminating against families with small kids that are responsible and are just dying to have a puppy and care for it? How are such people supposed to find a puppy if most reputable breeders reject them on the basis of the generic criterion "no pups with infants and toddlers"? I really believe that one of the most valuable gifts I have given my kids is allowing them to grow up in a home full of pets (1 or 2 goldens, 1 or 2 cats, a rabbit and 4-8 goldfish most of the time), all of which were considered family members and no one was allowed to hurt them, bully them or show disrespect or ignore their feelings. I really believe this is a life lesson and I feel sorry for children who have grown up without a pet. So what options are there for such people?


Animal ownership is not a right therefore three is no discrimination. Animal ownership is a privilege. 

The option is to wait until a child understands the respect an animal deserves. 

A child of six can understand respect as well as responsibility to another living creature. 

Impulse control and learning to wait are valuable life lessons. 

A breeder has a responsibility to the animals she decided to bring into this world. 

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## Goldngirl01 (Oct 17, 2013)

*small children*

Being a Breeder for over 30 yrs., I have tried to be "open-minded" about some situations that I have not been in the past...small children is one of them. I make my decision after I meet the family & watch the children interact with my dogs. There are still some things that I don't deter from, but I have found that every child & every family "pack" are different, & if they are a good home, they deserve a healthy & good tempered Golden as much as any other family. JMO


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

eleni said:


> Isn't that unfair and discriminating against families with small kids that are responsible and are just dying to have a puppy and care for it? How are such people supposed to find a puppy if most reputable breeders reject them on the basis of the generic criterion "no pups with infants and toddlers"...


Fairness and/or discrimination have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Breeders' puppies are precious to them and they are _completely_ responsible for their lives and their futures. When someone asks, "How are such people supposed to find a puppy?", it makes me cringe. IMO, it implies that there are those that believe that breeders are there to supply puppies to the masses no matter what the buyers circumstances are. _*It is not a breeder's responsibility to provide every Tom, Dick and Harry a puppy*_. Period. 

It _is_ their responsibility, however, to assure their puppies be placed in the best possible homes and it's up to them to decide which homes that will be. If that happens to be a home without kids, so be it.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I agree that nobody is owed a Golden or any dog for that matter. Yes, dog ownership is a privilege like driving a car is a privilege. Not all people are qualified to own a large dog. Nobody deserves anything, but God in his grace is very generous and He is moved by our requests. There are many sincere families who long for a Golden (or other breed) and have waited for many years to have one and have seriously worked so hard getting their ducks in a row, preparing for dog ownership etc. They understand what is required for dog ownership. God withholds no good thing from those who walk upright. He gives the faithful the desires of their hearts. Some people who would provide awesome homes for a Golden I think could sometimes be misunderstood and deemed ineligible by a breeder(due to children or poor social skills). I am sure it happens. But for those families who believe in God, He leads them to the right breeder because He has the right breeder in mind for them and the breeders visited prior to them denying them a breeder could be God closing a door due to it not being a good match. A lot of people obtained their Goldens by the grace of God who gave them favor with the breeder. God knows best who deserves and who could be blessed and benefitted by a Golden Like a dating relationship, sometimes it doesn't work out between a breeder and a buyer, even for those who are truly qualified and sincere for a puppy. I relied upon the power of prayer and God's grace for my own Golden, for I had a two year old. I am a woman of faith and I praise God for those breeders who give truly qualified families a chance. :appl::banana:Thanks Chris, for giving me a chance too!:You_Rock_:thanks::nchuck:


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As my old boss used to say, "All dogs bite, it is a question of when." I have certainly seen biting dogs in practice. I have had three bites where the skin was punctured. The three breeds were GSP, Shep X, and Irish Setter. I have also had arms or fingers grabbed, but no skin broken by a kuvasz, Welsh Terrier, Maltese, and PWD. The potential is there for any breed. I just cringe when clients inform me that there dog is good with little kids climbing on them or when the dog is done with the kid, it growls....who in their right mind would put their dog in a place where it might bite if the young child doesn't understand what a growl means?


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

We should start a thread for how many times we've all been bitten and by what type dog. 9 times out of 10 I bet it's a small one.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> We should start a thread for how many times we've all been bitten and by what type dog. 9 times out of 10 I bet it's a small one.


I've never had a small dog. 

My only dog bite was at age 42 when I was teaching my border collie Dru the correct placement of a bite to a ewe's nose to defend himself. Working dogs are only allowed to grip on command as a defence. I moved the ewe at the wrong time and when he gripped he missed and got me. 

I didn't go to hospital because 1) I knew me dog was healthy 2) he was my dog 3) I knew that a dog bite would be reported and Dru would suffer the consequences. 




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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

CharlieBear80 said:


> We should start a thread for how many times we've all been bitten and by what type dog. 9 times out of 10 I bet it's a small one.


I worked in animal professions for a relatively short time frame (~4 years) and cannot count on all my appendages how many times I've been bitten. Rarely has the skin been broken (ironically the worse bite I got was from my OWN GOLDEN RETRIEVER who sliced my index finger open about an inch to an inch and a half over a carrot. 

The other animals that have bitten me include GSD, huskies, chiahuahuas, shiba inu, chows, poodles, and labs, among others. 

I agree with Sally's mom. Every dog bites, it just depends when. 


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## Ripley16 (Jan 26, 2012)

I've had a GSD and a Golden, and have not been bitten by either one. I used to work in a pet store when I was younger, and had lots of owners getting me to put clothes onto their disgruntled dogs, therefore, I have been bitten multiple times. In retrospect, I really wish I could have just said no and avoid getting bitten  I've been bitten by a shih-tsu x bishon (multiple times. a family friends dog. Aweful dog IMO), a jack Russell, Pit Bull, Lab x boxer, maltese and a staffie. Only one to break the skin was the Pit, and it was a really terrifying experience. I ended up getting 6 stitches in my arm. So I was bitten by kind of 50/50 % of small and large breeds. Some breeds are more aggressive than others, but even the nicest breeds will bite, just depends on the dog.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Long forgotten memory popped up while reading this - we had a Cairn Terrier when I was a kid, and I remember trying to hold her and keep her from jumping out of my arms for some reason, and she bit my hand. I never told anyone because I was afraid my parents would get rid of her. (They wouldn't have, but I was a kid.)


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

kwhit said:


> Fairness and/or discrimination have absolutely nothing to do with it.
> 
> Breeders' puppies are precious to them and they are _completely_ responsible for their lives and their futures. When someone asks, "How are such people supposed to find a puppy?", it makes me cringe. IMO, it implies that there are those that believe that breeders are there to supply puppies to the masses no matter what the buyers circumstances are. _*It is not a breeder's responsibility to provide every Tom, Dick and Harry a puppy*_. Period.
> 
> It _is_ their responsibility, however, to assure their puppies be placed in the best possible homes and it's up to them to decide which homes that will be. If that happens to be a home without kids, so be it.


This is very well written and I agree totally.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Goldngirl01 said:


> Being a Breeder for over 30 yrs., I have tried to be "open-minded" about some situations that I have not been in the past...small children is one of them. I make my decision after I meet the family & watch the children interact with my dogs. There are still some things that I don't deter from, but I have found that every child & every family "pack" are different, & if they are a good home, they deserve a healthy & good tempered Golden as much as any other family. JMO


Chris, I'm very happy there are breeders out there like you. God bless you. 

Golden retrievers and Labrador retrievers are as beloved as they are, because you have generations of people who grew up with the family dog sleeping by their childhood beds and hanging out under the family kitchen table. And these dogs worship children.  

You have many goldens like my Danny who are happiest sitting and watching little kids play and hoping very hard that those kids will come to them.

And OMG, I'm so glad that breeders do not only sell puppies to friends!


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> I agree that nobody is owed a Golden or any dog for that matter. Yes, dog ownership is a privilege like driving a car is a privilege. Not all people are qualified to own a large dog. Nobody deserves anything, but God in his grace is very generous and He is moved by our requests. There are many sincere families who long for a Golden (or other breed) and have waited for many years to have one and have seriously worked so hard getting their ducks in a row, preparing for dog ownership etc. They understand what is required for dog ownership. God withholds no good thing from those who walk upright. He gives the faithful the desires of their hearts. Some people who would provide awesome homes for a Golden I think could sometimes be misunderstood and deemed ineligible by a breeder(due to children or poor social skills). I am sure it happens. But for those families who believe in God, He leads them to the right breeder because He has the right breeder in mind for them and the breeders visited prior to them denying them a breeder could be God closing a door due to it not being a good match. A lot of people obtained their Goldens by the grace of God who gave them favor with the breeder. God knows best who deserves and who could be blessed and benefitted by a Golden Like a dating relationship, sometimes it doesn't work out between a breeder and a buyer, even for those who are truly qualified and sincere for a puppy. I relied upon the power of prayer and God's grace for my own Golden, for I had a two year old. I am a woman of faith and I praise God for those breeders who give truly qualified families a chance.


 If their is any logic to this your g_d is a severe underachiever.
This atheist did diligent research on breeding lines and found a breeder that had breeding lines that would suit what I wanted in a new puppy. Being financially stable, having the time and ambition to raise a good pup along with patience to endure puppyhood all figured in to Deaglan's breeder being comfortable in selling me one of her pups.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tennyson said:


> If their is any logic to this your g_d is a severe underachiever.
> .


This is offensive.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Tennyson said:


> *If their is any logic to this your g_d is a severe underachiever. *If their is any logic to this your g_d is a severe underachiever.
> This atheist did diligent research on breeding lines and found a breeder that had breeding lines that would suit what I wanted in a new puppy. Being financially stable, having the time and ambition to raise a good pup along with patience to endure puppyhood all figured in to Deaglan's breeder being comfortable in selling me one of her pups.





Megora said:


> This is offensive.


I agree.

Wasn't there just a thread asking why people leave this forum.........


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Megora said:


> This is offensive.


Yes, I agree. Her belief and love in god *shouldn't* threaten or insult anyone. There are many religions in this world, and even while people may have extremely strong convictions about theirs, take to heart that it does not matter if others disagree with you and yours. So many paths exist to whatever. I believe she deserves an apology.

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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree, very uncalled for response by Tennyson. Everybody has the right to believe in god or not believe in god and express their views accordingly without being persecuted, made fun off or plain old insulted.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Wow, I read that and immediately hit the yellow report button because I thought it offensive to people of faith, not realizing so many others felt the same way. Mercy Mom is entitled to her opinion about her God without someone making such a rude remark.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

In general, we allow members to express some religion ( of any religion ) in their own posts if they choose to do so. And we also allow members to express if they are not religious in their own posts as well. All we ask is you do not attack another members beliefs and only state in your posts your own beliefs, and just leave it at that.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Tennyson said:


> If their is any logic to this your g_d is a severe underachiever.
> This atheist did diligent research on breeding lines and found a breeder that had breeding lines that would suit what I wanted in a new puppy. Being financially stable, having the time and ambition to raise a good pup along with patience to endure puppyhood all figured in to Deaglan's breeder being comfortable in selling me one of her pups.


There are plenty of athiests who breed excellent dogs responsibly. I do not appreciate however, calling my Lord an underachiever. As a woman of faith, I depend on God for everything, and He provides. God is all powerful and he demands accountability and obedience and responsibility. He also loves us soooooooooooooo much! If we will just believe in Him, He will help us. God has blessed you with the ability to prepare a good home for your dog. This Thanksgiving especially, I thank God tremendously for my dog Mercy. I worked hard to attain her and still bust my butt to care for Her, but I give God the glory for being able to own and care for a dog!:appl::banana: We should not take our ability to care for a dog for granted. Too many disabled and elderly people are lonely because they are unable to care for a dog. These are the people who could use pet therapy, and in Jesus name, I will bring Mercy to see them. I gave up my self-righteousness, because it gets me nowhere. We need to tone down the judgmental attitudes a bit for those who struggle obtain a dog but who still sincerely would give the dog an awesome loving home.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Wendi said:


> I agree.
> 
> Wasn't there just a thread asking why people leave this forum.........


Where is that?


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## 2tired (Oct 19, 2011)

Goldngirl01 said:


> Being a Breeder for over 30 yrs., I have tried to be "open-minded" about some situations that I have not been in the past...small children is one of them. I make my decision after I meet the family & watch the children interact with my dogs. There are still some things that I don't deter from, but I have found that every child & every family "pack" are different, & if they are a good home, they deserve a healthy & good tempered Golden as much as any other family. JMO


When my children were 18 months and 3 years old, we began the search for a golden retriever puppy to welcome to our home. We had recently lost our golden boy to lymphoma at age 3 1/2 years old. This dog was only 7 months old when my oldest son was born, and both boys had only known having a dog in their lives.

Despite telling a particular breeder my husband and I were experienced dog owners, and participated actively in obedience, we were denied even a meeting with the breeder because of the age of our children. They refused the opportunity to meet with us based on age of the children.

We then approached another breeder, and asked up front if having children that age was a problem in consideration for one of their puppies. Their answer---they had 7 children of their own, and no, this was not a problem.

We brought Casey home a month later. He earned his CD (at age 2 years old) when my sons were 3 1/2 and 5, and died at age 13 years when my boys were 14 1/2 and 16. That first breeder lost out at placing their puppy in a great home, and we were blessed with a great dog for 13 years


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

For me the point is the breeder owns those puppies. It is their choice who they sell the pups to. Whether we agree with thier criteria on what they expect of a buyer or not it doesn't matter it is their choice.
There are tons of awesome families out there that will do a great job raising a pup and small children. There are tons more that won't do a good job of raising both and as Lilliam stated in that case the dogs pay and sometimes with their lives.

Each breeder has to follow their heart and make the best choices from their own experiences.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

MercyMom said:


> Where is that?


http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=240050
Question for long time members…..


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## Ripley16 (Jan 26, 2012)

I myself am not a religious person (I consider myself agnostic), but tolerance is something that I fully advocate for. No one should be judged here due to their religious beliefs. Everyone should be accepted here no matter what race or religion.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

eleni said:


> Isn't that unfair and discriminating against families with small kids that are responsible and are just dying to have a puppy and care for it? How are such people supposed to find a puppy if most reputable breeders reject them on the basis of the generic criterion "no pups with infants and toddlers"? I really believe that one of the most valuable gifts I have given my kids is allowing them to grow up in a home full of pets (1 or 2 goldens, 1 or 2 cats, a rabbit and 4-8 goldfish most of the time), all of which were considered family members and no one was allowed to hurt them, bully them or show disrespect or ignore their feelings. I really believe this is a life lesson and I feel sorry for children who have grown up without a pet. So what options are there for such people?


my neighbors have two children (elementary school age) and they started with one dog. Last summer I had to go and give the dog water as the little 4 mo old labra-doodle was tied to a tree in the middle of the hot summer day with no water or food. I waited almost 30 min for the father to return home and he assured me that his wife was in the house with a headache hence she did not answer the door. They decided to put up an invisible fence and the dog was constantly in the street, despite it. What do they do? They get another dog - a golden retriever this time. Same situation, dogs outside by themselves and into the street as they figured out the invisible fence has dead spots. One day the father (who is a teacher) took the kids outside right outside the fence and played with them while the two dogs were hit by the invisible fence constantly as they were trying to go and play with them. Neither the kids or the dad even cared. Last Sunday it was freezing cold and high winds. Once again the dogs were outside all day long. As it got dark they were barking at the back door wanting to go inside. 
When you first meet the family you think they are the nicest people. How would a breeder even know that the parents are indeed responsible or they just get a puppy until the kids get tired of it or he grows up into an adult. Honestly I feel sorry for children who grow up with parents like these.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia, you need to report any neglect if you see neglect. 

I hope people don't imagine it's normal for families to neglect dogs if they children. There's so many families on this forum who have kids and sometimes multiple goldens - and their dogs are obviously full fledged members of the families.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> Claudia, you need to report any neglect if you see neglect.
> 
> I hope people don't imagine it's normal for families to neglect dogs if they children.* There's so many families on this forum who have kids and sometimes multiple goldens - and their dogs are obviously full fledged members of the families.*


yeah - I have been reading the laws and talking to people who would be able to respond, unfortunately the laws are quite vague and not much to be done. 

I agree with your last statement! My guess is that it quite hard for a breeder to get to know each family and how they will care for the pup. 

One other example and in this example there are *no* little children. Darcy was previously owned by a vet. She was in horrible shape, no training (even though she has 5 points towards her CH - she had no comprehension of the basics sit, sit/stay, down, down/stay let alone the rest). She had no muscle definition on her, separation anxiety and the list goes on.... Luckily the breeder had a good contract in place and was able to take her back.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I think bottom line, the breeder (or rescue) owns the animal and can choose to whom they sell/adopt their animals out to. When I got Bear, I was SO nervous about being denied. Here we were a 20-something newlywed couple, freshly moved, no previous dog experience on our own, etc. My application was heavily scrutinized and in lieu of a home visit, I had to email pictures of my whole house (along with a five page questionnaire) to the coordinators. After my application was approved, I spent 4 hours with the puppies and the foster mom, getting to know each other so she would feel comfortably letting me walk away with a tiny puppy she had raised from birth. To this day, we are still very close with Bear's rescue and his foster family in particular. His rescue is significantly more tolerant to judging families on a case-by-case basis, which I think is the important line to draw. Guidelines are great, and families should be interviewed but realistically it is at the discretion of the owner to decide whom their puppies should be placed with. 

The same would apply if I would rehome one of my creatures.


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## eleni (Oct 10, 2013)

I feel the need to apologize to those breeders that have decided not to sell puppies to families with small children. This does not change my view that any family that is committed to raising a puppy should have that chance, but it does make me think that I am an exception in having managed to raise 4 golden pups with two small boys, while working as well and in treating all my pets like family members I would never consider giving up. I came across a very sad post today.
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ussion/242994-torn-what-do-need-advice-2.html
It makes me think that long term breeders have seen this recurring situation many times and they have adapted their attitude accordingly. Naturally, anybody might realize that they have no time and patience to raise a small puppy, not necessarily just the parents of small children, but now I am beginning to understand


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## Kimouflage (Jul 7, 2013)

I see my old thread has been resurrected. 

To summarize, here's how everything went down: We had agreed to buy a puppy from a breeder. Then I found this forum, and realized that this person was not really reputable, so we backed out. I started doing my research on reputable breeders in the area, started getting denied, and wrote this thread. After that, I did find someone who was willing to sell me a puppy, but I had to wait on a planned breeding. While waiting for that, my husband got tired of waiting to have a pet, so we adopted a cat from the shelter. We finally did get that call from the breeder, but by then my husband was no longer on board, because he was in the middle of a possible job transition to a lower-paying job. Now I found out that I am expecting our third child. SO, our puppy plans are on hold, indefinitely. I feel I could have easily handled a puppy with two young kids, but having a newborn added to the mix is not something I think I can handle.

I still really want a golden, but I will just have to wait.


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

Congratulations! It's funny how things happen when they are meant to happen!


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Well at least you made some little kitties life! That is great, cats are cool and great companions too. We have 3 and can't imagine not having a kitty. Sorry to hear about DH's job, hope it all works out for you in the long run.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Kimouflage said:


> I see my old thread has been resurrected.
> ...I still really want a golden, but I will just have to wait.


Just wanted to wish you best of luck with your husband's job and most especially with your newest addition. I also wanted to tell you how much I admire your maturity and ability to see the benefits of delay, it's not giving up a dream, just putting it off until the time is right. Good for everyone involved. Best wishes….


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## Jennifer Claire (Oct 17, 2013)

I waited till my children were big enough before we got a dog, though I was very very keen, knew myself to be a responsible dog owner and my children to be good eggs. Any dog, however sweet tempered, can bite. Small children are fragile. Golden retrievers are very large. 
As I have posted elsewhere we have our female because she was too much for her previous owners, and they were adults, and experienced owners of (small) dogs. Add small children to that scenario and it could have been a fiasco.

Jennifer


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

"I have not doubt that someone, somewhere will sell you a puppy. It may not be a reputable breeder, but I'm sure you could find a puppy mill to cash in on your willing checkbook. I hope you don't go that route."

Puppy mills, pet stores, greeders & most backyard breeders will sell to anyone - they don't care about anything beyond cash in your hand.

I personally do not have young children at home but know that my breeder has & will sell a puppy to families with young children but evaluates each situation. I do know that she has denied many families after they visit at her home and she sees how the kids behave with her dogs/puppies.

I had a family situation involving a 2 year old child - I walked into our family room to see a child jumping off the couch arm right onto my sleeping dog. The child's Mom & Dad were watching. Fortunately, my then 3 year old, intact male, woke up startled but ,when he realized it was a child, just got up & left. I lost it with the parents who thought it was funny! Not funny when the situation could been very bad. They don't visit any more!


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## Goldenhopeful (Dec 21, 2013)

We just had a breeder tell us she doesn't work with people if they have young children. I can understand where she is coming from. I hadn't mentioned my sons age in the original email and she quickly responded to that one with info on her upcoming litter and saying that she will accept my application, she also said she won't sell to to anyone with children under the age of six. I politely responded that unfortunately we have a child that will only be 2 years old. I wished her luck with her upcoming litter and happy holidays! I never heard back... But that's ok. It just wasn't meant to be! 

My thoughts on puppies and young children.... It's not easy and adds even more work to training and raising the pup. But I also know my child and he is so laid back, he's very independent and plays by himself so well. We have a playroom where he goes (and I can see him but it will be blocked off from the pup so he can have his own space if the puppy gets overly zoomie or bitie. I also plan on not letting the pup in the playroom as that is where all of Colton's little dangerous (to the pup) toys will be. We will also be getting an x pen and two crates (one for upstairs and one for the kitchen). I can plan and plan but I won't be ready until I'm knee deep in puppy and 2 year old  but this is what I do know- I am 1000% dedicated to raising this puppy and making him part of our family... We will make it work. And there might be days when I ask myself what I got myself into- and I expect that... But I will never give up on the puppy just like I wouldn't give up on my child. When he comes home with us, he has us forever.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Goldenhopeful, it sounds like you may be an exception


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## Sheldon's Mom (Dec 29, 2012)

Goldenhopeful

Wishing you the best on your search for your golden puppy.
I raised a golden puppy with a 3 year old and it went perfectly fine.
You have a great plan in place . You should do well.


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