# Drills; a broader look



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

great post Evan, thanks!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Too funny, my training post (when I got around to it) was going to start with, I have been running drills, drills and more drills. I have to say for an inexperienced trainer they keep me, for the most part, out of trouble. As Evan posted, I usually get the concept I'm trying to teach because it has been drilled into me by my trainer and we have gone over the what if's.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

One thing I've noticed about drills (training a grand total of one dog, lol) is that his attitude toward them improves when it's been taken into the field and then brought back to the drill yard.
By this I mean, he will do the drill but he doesn't "love it", just likes it well enough. I'm not saying he dislikes drills, just doesn't like them as much as chasing birds (duh). Just to pick an example, let's say a casting drill. 
Then we'll take the skill out into the field, and do it there with birds. Transferring the knowledge from the drill into the field, as it were.
Now if we go back to the yard a couple weeks later and repeat the drill, he will LOVE it. It's as if he has put it all together now, understands what's required of him, and now loves doing it. I think it's a confidence thing that he picks up from taking the drill into the field and "applying it".
I'm not sure I"m saying what I'm trying to, or making any sense!


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

You make perfect sence Barb. When I was teaching BaWaaJige casting last year he liked it okay but when we trained with chuckers and he got those birds to fly and then SOMEONE shot one!!!! Holy smokes Jige was in heaven. He loves casting but gives me this look at the end " where is my bird????!!!" 

Ihear alot of you write about a drill yard I dont have anything like that. I train my dog where I happen to be. I am doing pile work right now so when I am out with him ( he goes with me all the time) I will set up his pile and work him. I make sure that it is safe and we have fun. I think what I am doing is good as he learning that he needs to work no matter where we are.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> Ihear alot of you write about a drill yard I dont have anything like that.


A drill yard is usually pretty easy to find. It's just a plain, featureless lot that is big enough for things like T work. Flat, well mowed, with good visibility. If you have that, you have a good drill yard.

The tricky part is finding good training ground where many physical factors are found, but that still offers good visibility. And harder yet; structured water! 

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

school and churches are great places to train drills when the kids/people aren't there. They tend to have nice big, mowed areas.
Water, ah, now that's another story.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I have the perfect place to train water. It is so nice I have areas that I can work on in and outs I have one end that has marsh across so the dog in partly in water partly on land. It has a big area that is about 200yrds arcoss but move further down and it is only about 50yrds across.

I live in an area that is farm country. The only time I hav enice mowed area is when they have hayed the fields. Oh well I guess I will just keep training like I have been.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

General V just keep an eye out for that flat field. I have been know to get up very early and sneak into parks do my drill and get out.

Winter loves drills and is never bored by them, not yet anyway. Seems like she doesn't care what the game is as long as she gets to play. We have a few we circulate through. I swear she looks out and thinks, yep it's the mark blind drill, or yippee walking singles, or looks like pyramid to me. But I'm pretty sure building confidence is part of drills too. Still it makes me smile, you can see the swag in her run back when she does well. They certainly know when they've nailed it.
Barb, I agree you can definitely see the transfer from the drills to the field, even after a drill day when she doesn't nail the drill.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I think the notion of "Training the dog you have" is also important to keep in mind when doing drills. I have to be very careful not to overdo drills with Breeze--when she does it right, I praise her and stop!! Then come back and repeat it another day to consolidate it. But if I keep at it on the same session, she is more likely to start trying other behaviours because in her head, she has not done it right if we keep going! Apparently her grandfather Jake was the same way.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

That is an excellent point Shelly each dog is different and what works for one will not always work for the next dog.

We have that in our house with the 3 dogs we are training.Jige performes so well with praise he is so happy that I am happy but my sons lab if you get excited and praise him above a good boy he forgets what he is doing and starts playing instead. So we have to keep his praise low key.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

*Secret!*

:uhoh: thought I started a new thread. sorry


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Good point Shelly. Tito is the same way. The OTCH trainers around here (who also have goldens) call it the "rule of two". They say if you get the correct behavior twice, STOP or the dog will wonder what he/she has done wrong. 



sterregold said:


> I think the notion of "Training the dog you have" is also important to keep in mind when doing drills. I have to be very careful not to overdo drills with Breeze--when she does it right, I praise her and stop!! Then come back and repeat it another day to consolidate it. But if I keep at it on the same session, she is more likely to start trying other behaviours because in her head, she has not done it right if we keep going! Apparently her grandfather Jake was the same way.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Yep, here too we run the drill of the day and move on, again balance, I'm always told "Keep throwing those marks, attitude and momentum".


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

A general suggestion from a pro: 

Daily, run marks of some kind first; land or water. Then run your current drill. If you have time, finish with more marks.

Overall: Run any new drill for about 3-5 days, assess progress, and usually move on. Each day you run that drill, mark first, and hopefully last, with the drill in between.

That is balance, and thorough education without droning needlessly over any one drill. This is advice usually paid for, so give it consideration. When you make your living training dogs that MUST succeed in the field, you learn to do smart things with them. 

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> Good point Shelly. Tito is the same way. The OTCH trainers around here (who also have goldens) call it the "rule of two". They say if you get the correct behavior twice, STOP or the dog will wonder what he/she has done wrong.


I think I had heard years back that for maximum learning, 3 reps. Teaching on the first, then two correct responses.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

to carry the discussion a bit further, how many drills do you do, and at what point, if any, do you stop doing drills?
Right or wrong, we rarely do drills any more. Almost everything has been moved to the field. We do "touch-up" drills, for things that need a little remedial work. For example, we don't do casting drills any more, that's been moved out into the field now, unless he needs a little reminder of something. 
We are going to be introducing some concepts soon that will require us to move back to doing drills, however. Right now what we're working on requires being in the field.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> to carry the discussion a bit further, how many drills do you do, and at what point, if any, do you stop doing drills?


I'm not sure I fully understand your question, "how many drills do you do?" While most of Basics is drill work, with a balance of marks along the way, there is no point at which I seek to abandon drills. What I do seek is to shift the balance as the dog progresses, and becomes more fully-trained.


hotel4dogs said:


> Right or wrong, we rarely do drills any more. Almost everything has been moved to the field. We do "touch-up" drills, for things that need a little remedial work.


And that is called "maintenance" Some drills should be used for more developed dogs as we look through our training journal and see trends developing that degrade field skills. It won't always be a drill, or set of drills that make the best treatment. But I don't think a prudent trainer should plan on departing from drill work at any set point. They're just too effective.


hotel4dogs said:


> We are going to be introducing some concepts soon that will require us to move back to doing drills, however. Right now what we're working on requires being in the field.


Teach, Force, Reinforce; the cycle of training. "Reinforce" is the maintenance phase, and a trainer should remain open to what each dog needs.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Evan, I guess my question was brought about by the fact that I know people who seem to do drills just endlessly, even with dogs who are pretty advanced. My dog would need to be put in a padded rubber room if I did that to him. 
I don't seek to abandon drills, but once he has the skill down I stop doing drills related to that skill, except for what you called maintenance, which is probably a better word than my "remedial" word. Like the example I used, he's been running really nice blinds, so I don't do any casting drills right now. But if I see it breaking down, we will go back to the drill yard to do some touch up work.
Right now we are working on long hunts of very difficult marks (singles). That pretty much has to be done in the field. It's specific to him; addressing some issues we've been having.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> to carry the discussion a bit further, how many drills do you do, and at what point, if any, do you stop doing drills?
> Right or wrong, we rarely do drills any more. Almost everything has been moved to the field. We do "touch-up" drills, for things that need a little remedial work. For example, we don't do casting drills any more, that's been moved out into the field now, unless he needs a little reminder of something.
> We are going to be introducing some concepts soon that will require us to move back to doing drills, however. Right now what we're working on requires being in the field.


I guess I would need a clarification what is considered a drill. I tend to call anything that isn't a test set up a drill. Lining drill, memory blind, singles off multiple gunner, double doubles, in line singles, walk away singles, mark blind, technical singles, all drills to me. 
I run a multiple mark with a blind set up less than once a week.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

maybe I'm using "drill" wrong. We go out in the field, set up wingers in a simulated test situation, usually with birds, and run it. Then we move to a different field, and do it again. To me that is not a drill. 
If we work on, for example, 3 handed casting in the field with short grass, and bumpers, that's a drill.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Think of it this way, Barb, if you go out in the field and do an ABCD drill with standout gunners in white or stickmen etc to teach the dogs about a key marking concept, such as long past short, repeating the concept using the various stations, that is a marking drill. It is designed to teach the dog a skill they need to be successful in a marking concept. Then once they can do it successfully within that drill, you would set up a marking scenario that incorporated the marking relationship you taught with the drill.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Shelly, I do think I'm using it correctly when I read what you wrote.


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