# Puppy won't stop biting me



## Huskr25 (Jan 11, 2013)

Lately milo has been aggressive with his play with me. I have all these toys for him but he still finds biting my arms, legs, and clothes is so much more fun. I try and put toys in his mouth after he bites me but he still goes back to me. I tell him "no bite" very firmly but that just seems to egg him on. Its getting to the point where it's a problem and I'm not sure how to get him to stop or at least be more gentle. Thoughts?


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

How old is Milo?


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## Huskr25 (Jan 11, 2013)

Hes 8 weeks today. I've had him a week and every day it seems to gets worse


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Start working on Calm = Release: Calm = Release | mysmartpuppy.com

At least it will give you some moments of calm, because his head will be pointing away from you. Casper has this one perfected. I have no idea how long he would do this, I always stop first.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

He's really young. At this point I think the only thing you can do is keep putting a toy in his mouth when he bites you. Every time he bites you, yelp, so he knows it hurts.
I don't want to be the one to break it to you but....the biting is only going to get worse from here.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Bentleysmom said:


> He's really young. At this point I think the only thing you can do is keep putting a toy in his mouth when he bites you. Every time he bites you, yelp, so he knows it hurts.
> *I don't want to be the one to break it to you but....the biting is only going to get worse from here*.


Joyce, you took the words right out of my mouth


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

I believe that the lip pinch is the most effective and works the quickest. When the pup bits you, or his teeth touch skin, you grab him by the collar or the scruff of the neck. Put your other hand over the pups muzzel and roll his lip into his mouth and press the lip *up* into his teeth. He is now biting himself. Push until he reacts with a squirm and a wimper. Give him a solid "NO BITE" command. If the pup circles around for another bite, it is time for your pup to take a nap - in his crate.

Pups bite to explore their world, they bite to play, they wrestle and bite to establish their position in the pack. At 8 weeks old he is just starting his biting and the quicker you get a handle on it the better.

The second method is to squeal loudly and turn away from the pup. Most will look confused and back away. This method also works but takes longer since there really is no negative consequences for his teeth touching your skin.

The last method is to simply put the pup away in his crate as soon as he starts to bite. Again, this will take longer but it works. Again, there is no real negative consequence so it will take a while for your pup to learn that biting means that he can't be with you.

What you don't want to do is think he will outgrow this and tolerate it. 

Be sure that you are not doing any wrestling or play fighting games with him. This encourages biting.

Good Luck


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I agree with Joyce and the others, the biting has only just begun.


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## GoldenNewbee (Jan 9, 2013)

Huskr25, we are experiencing the same issues with our 10 week old and specifically when we say "No" or "OUCH, OUCH, OUCH" he just comes back at us, very stubbornly... It's so hard because we want to play with him, but it hurts. Quilter, I love the link to calm = release. Definately going to try that whenever Murphy calms down...


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I'm sorry to break it to you, but sometimes nothing works. Tayla was a big biter. I had more ripped clothes, bruises on my hands, arms and stomach and cuts on my arms and hands from teeth from the time she was 4 months old until just prior to her 1st birthday. I learned a lot on this forum. Be consistent and when you say no bite add a comand that you want instead, like sit. Always give these puppies a job. Some stop biting earlier and some later, but they will stop.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

My Mercy is 11 months and she's still goes at it with my feet and would rather play with them than play ball! At least now it's more confined to times when I catch her with forbidden objects in her mouth and have her drop them in place of her toys.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Tayla's Mom said:


> I'm sorry to break it to you, but sometimes nothing works. Tayla was a big biter. I had more ripped clothes, bruises on my hands, arms and stomach and cuts on my arms and hands from teeth from the time she was 4 months old until just prior to her 1st birthday. I learned a lot on this forum. Be consistent and when you say no bite add a comand that you want instead, like sit. Always give these puppies a job. Some stop biting earlier and some later, but *they will stop*.


Promise? :roflmao:


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## Vinnie's Mom (Jun 9, 2012)

I think when the biting stops, it's a combination of the consistent teaching of bite inhibition and them growing out of it. When Vinnie turned 5 1/2 months old it was like a light bulb appeared over his head. He was like " Oh you don't like me as much when I'm biting you. Should I not do that?"
It was a rough go for me because I have very thin skin and I bleed easily. I looked like I climbed through a barbed wire fence all the time. I was wearing long sleeves in the summer and I was brought to tears many times.
Hang in there, it will get better. Don't hesitate to give him a time out when necessary. When Vinnie got rough, he soon learned that play time was over.


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

I know the feeling. Milla is 12 weeks and is a biter. DS is her favorite chew toy. Uggg. We have tried multiple suggestions that I have gotten from this board. My next step is to try a compressed air can or lemon juice as suggested in another thread. I have a child and have a lot of kids that come to my house. Biting is NOT ok to me. I am understanding that she is still a puppy and it will happen and take time to break it, but ultimately I want her to know its NOT ok to put people in her mouth.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Seagodess said:


> I know the feeling. Milla is 12 weeks and is a biter. DS is her favorite chew toy. Uggg. We have tried multiple suggestions that I have gotten from this board. My next step is to try a compressed air can or lemon juice as suggested in another thread. I have a child and have a lot of kids that come to my house. Biting is NOT ok to me. I am understanding that she is still a puppy and it will happen and take time to break it, but ultimately I want her to know its NOT ok to put people in her mouth.


I agree. Even Ian Dunbar, who recommends allowing puppies to bite, so they learn that it hurts (which we tried unsuccessfully for over a month), suggests that you completely eliminate the biting at approx. 4 months. Many neglect to mention that point when describing his methods. Having said that, everyone needs to assess their own dog and situation, and do what they believe is necessary and appropriate. (From this day forward, I will add that disclaimer to any comment I make on this topic. )


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I forgot to mention one thing....I wouldn't use lip pinches or even lemon juice on an 8 week old puppy. They need to learn what "no bite" means first. Having said that, everyone needs to assess their own dog and situation, and do what they believe is necessary and appropriate.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm sorry but I have to disagree wth the comment that it cant be corrected. Although puppy biting is the most common problem, there are several methods to deal with it and to stop it. The vast majority of pups quickly learn to keep their teeth to themselves when there are consequences for their bad behavior.


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

Leslie B said:


> I'm sorry but I have to disagree wth the comment that it cant be corrected. Although puppy biting is the most common problem, there are several methods to deal with it and to stop it. The vast majority of pups quickly learn to keep their teeth to themselves when there are consequences for their bad behavior.


What is your definition of quickly? I have been trying for over a month and none of the most suggested ways are working for me. Can you suggest something other than redirecting, firmly saying no bite, walking away, time outs? Those do not work for my pup. They make her more excitable. Except the time out, but that doesn't really teach her not to put people in her mouth IMO.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

In my opinion, the lip pinch teaches the pup not to bite and 8 weeks is not too young. If you watch pups with the adult dogs in their pack, they all grab the pup by the muzzle when their play is too boisterous. Usually that starts by 6 or 7 weeks old.

The op has young children and needs to stop this behavior sooner rather than later.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Seagodess said:


> What is your definition of quickly? I have been trying for over a month and none of the most suggested ways are working for me. Can you suggest something other than redirecting, firmly saying no bite, walking away, time outs? Those do not work for my pup. They make her more excitable. Except the time out, but that doesn't really teach her not to put people in her mouth IMO.



Have you tried the lip pinch?


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

Leslie B said:


> In my opinion, the lip pinch teaches the pup not to bite and 8 weeks is not too young. If you watch pups with the adult dogs in their pack, they all grab the pup by the muzzle when their play is too boisterous. Usually that starts by 6 or 7 weeks old.
> 
> The op has young children and needs to stop this behavior sooner rather than later.


I may have to try this. The vet actually suggested it too last time we were there and mentioned she was a biter.


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## Red Retrievers (Apr 15, 2011)

I agree with Leslie B the lip pinch is the best way to stop puppy biting. Watch a mother dog with her pups or any member of the pack a pup bites they bite back. Now I don't advocate biting your puppy, they don't taste that good, but they need to learn. So the lip pinch is equal to how a pack behaves. A pack doesn't have toys to stuff in the pups mouth. It needs to be taken even a step further IF the pup learns the nip and run catch it and lip pinch. If it bites a child catch and lip pinch.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Leslie B said:


> Have you tried the lip pinch?


I tried it a few times. It aggravated her and didn't reduce the biting. I would imagine it probably does work for many. Lemon juice is the only thing that has worked for us.

(Everyone needs to assess their own dog and situation, and do what they believe is necessary and appropriate.)


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Seagodess said:


> What is your definition of quickly? I have been trying for over a month and none of the most suggested ways are working for me. Can you suggest something other than redirecting, firmly saying no bite, walking away, time outs? Those do not work for my pup. They make her more excitable. Except the time out, but that doesn't really teach her not to put people in her mouth IMO.


The time out can work and it does teach the pup, although it is not my first choice since it takes a lot longer. You have to be quick and at the first sign the pup is getting in the mood it is crate time. You have to keep a close eye on the pup and expect it to take a month or so. Again, I like the pinch better since I have all but eliminated biting in a few days for most of my pups.


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

Nairb said:


> I tried it a few times. It aggravated her and didn't reduce the biting. I would imagine it probably does work for many. Lemon juice is the only thing that has worked for us.
> 
> *(Everyone needs to assess their own dog and situation, and do what they believe is necessary and appropriate.)*


I cant help but bust up laughing every time I read this. LOL


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

At least it goes away with most pups. Maddie was awful as a pup. We begged to get her into puppy training early, which we did. By four plus months she was much better. Now, at nine months, she is truly a gem. She would never dream of actually biting us hard. When play wrestling with us she will growl, snap at the air and/or do little baby nibbles on the blanket or sheet, but never us.

It was truly awful to live through early on. She would lunge and bark and sliced my husband's nose from top to end. Definitely a land shark.

Good luck. It did seem like a very looong couple of months there.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Seagodess said:


> I cant help but bust up laughing every time I read this. LOL


If you were following a similar thread from a few days ago, I assume you understand why I put that on there. I believe I even said it no less than three times in that thread, yet I got scolded for not allowing others to disagree. I guess I just need to make myself more clear.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Nairb said:


> I tried it a few times. It aggravated her and didn't reduce the biting. I would imagine it probably does work for many. Lemon juice is the only thing that has worked for us.
> 
> (Everyone needs to assess their own dog and situation, and do what they believe is necessary and appropriate.)


Yes, everyone has to assessed their own dog and their own comfort level with a training method.


Like on another forum I learn to "take what works for me and leave the rest".


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If you grab your pup and cause her pain when she bites you, you're more likely to teach her to become handshy than you are to stop her from biting.

Biting is an invitation to play and an expression of a natural desire to mouth. Take away the reward and the biting will get worse briefly (it's called an extinction flare) and then taper off. It'll go even faster if you can reward an alternative way to take out the mouthiness and the urge to play.

Using pain on a dog that young is less effective and more likely to create side effects. It is, no offense intended to anybody who suggested it, old-fashioned, thoroughly discredited, and all around a bad idea. It may work sometimes, but it's risky and can damage a dog's trust in people.

Full-on time outs in the crate can be helpful if you're simply fed up and upset with being nipped, but it does little to teach a puppy how to use her mouth. Furthermore, crates shouldn't be used for punishment. They become safe, calm spaces, so by punishing a dog with a crating, you're either going to undermine the safety of the crate, or you're not going to have an effective punishment.

Remove the reward and reward an alternate behavior. With puppy biting, the reward is partly the mouthing itself and partly the social interaction. If you make noise, jerk away, or even grab the pup, it can be perceived as play and actually strengthen the undesired behavior. That's why I don't usually advise people to do the squeal thing. Some owners are able to communicate "ow" with it and thus teach the pups, but some pups seem to hear "play more!" instead. Sound is highly energizing to puppies, and you want to take the energy out.

So when the pup bites, remove the attention, motion, eye contact, and sound. With a pup who hasn't built a biting habit yet, you'll usually get a couple more bites and then the pup will back off and look confused. That's when you come to life and give your attention. Wiggle a toy, and when he goes for it, play and praise. That's rewarding the alternate behavior. Typically, she'll go back to biting you. Repeat the process. Teeth on skin makes the human become extremely boring. That's the best punishment, not intimidation or pain. The more consistent you are, the faster she'll learn.

I've seen a few times where a slightly older pup has already built a deeper habit after a few weeks of biting and getting exciting reactions from the humans. These pups are more persistent, and it may not be practical to just wait them out when they nip, since they'll bite harder and for longer. In those cases, you can simply open the pup's jaws and push her back slightly, all the while being as boring as possible (quiet; minimal, slow movement; no eye contact, etc.).

Don't forget to take every opportunity you can to reward appropriate mouthing on toys during play time. There's a natural urge to mouth, so teaching the pup where to do it is more helpful than just showing her where not to do it.

And remember: when it starts to work, she'll bite more persistently and harder. It's not getting the normal reaction, so she'll do the behavior more intently for a brief period before giving up and trying something new. Don't give up when she suddenly gets worse. That's the sign that you're about to have a breakthrough.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I would agree with Tayla's Mom, that the biting will stop. For several months, I had bite marks on both hands and my forearms. One day I noticed that the marks were gone. I do not have advice as to how to stop the biting, however. We used the "no bite" command, with limited success.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I personally would never hurt my puppy to teach him not to bite. We had the same problem and at one point my trainer told me to pinch his cheek. I tried it for 2 days. Not only could I not stand the sad look in his eyes, it also made the biting worse. 
I want all of my dogs to trust me 100%, 100% of the time.


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## Fella 77 (Jan 21, 2013)

I had that problem with Sadie when she was a pup..I just consistently told her NO BITE and would stop interacting with her when she would do that. It took a while but she learned. Eventually, I could even play rough with her and wrestle and she wouldn't bite me..if she did..even just little play mouths.. I would say OUCH really loud..even if she just accidentally grazed me with her teeth..and she would start licking the spot she hit furiously..like she was saying "sorry"..My wife used to laugh..I would tell Sadie."Put those teeth away", and she would!


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## MyLady Heidi (Jan 16, 2013)

Aren't young dogs supposed to mouth around everything they come across. I know mine do. I got my puppies at 7 wks old and on day 1 were rolling around the floor wrestling and biting each other. They learned on each other what hurts and what doesn't, so I assume you have to play the role of the second puppy and yelp when it hurts. I got fuzzy slippers yesterday and my dogs went nuts, both have adult teeth now and both were biting the slippers, but never hurt me because they have learned where to stop.

Good luck.


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## Huskr25 (Jan 11, 2013)

I tried the lip pinch last night, it just seemed to egg him on. Nothing seems I work except for timeout. Any other suggestion I've tried other than time out eggs him on to be even more aggressive 


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## Huskr25 (Jan 11, 2013)

And the time out will work with him, he will yelp cry and bark to get out of his kennel, but ill wait till he stops, then wait another 5 minutes of silence then let him out. He is much calmer after this 


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

IMO, many who have commented that the biting eventually stopped may not be read clearly. They have worked long and hard to train/teach their dogs not to bite. It didn't just magically disappear. They need to give themselves the credit of putting in all that time to get their dog to this point. In most cases they have used consistency and patience and should be handed medals for bravery.

On the subject of lip pinching. This is an older training method. For some dogs it does work. For others their can be unforseen fallout to the relationship with their owners. Todays science suggests using other ways. Pups and dogs are very smart they know we are not their mothers. It doesn't work because they think we are their moms, it works because it is uncomfortable/aversive and the dog doesn't like it. 

For young puppies under the age of 4 months using the pups kibble and hand feeding the pup, only giving that piece of kibble when the pup takes it gently builds up good habits. Also playing some impulse control games can teach the pup what you do expect the pup to do with his/her mouth will be a great way to bond with your pup and show them what you expect of them.

Tippykayak's post was excellent.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

My pups have mostly typically stopped mouthing after about two weeks, and completely stopped after two more. With client dogs who've developed a mouthing habit already, it usually takes a little longer, but you still get a flare and then a huge drop off in biting after a couple of days. 

They do it as part of their social play behavior, and when it doesn't get them more interaction, they try other stuff, like bringing you a toy. You reward the good alternatives with your attention and praise, so they learn to do that instead.

I think it can be hard for new owners to be truly boring to a nippy puppy. Flinching, making sound, pulling away, pushing the puppy, grabbing the muzzle, etc., can all be misinterpreted by the puppy as signs to play. And puppies are persistent when they're trying something they think will work. But if you can reinforce that constant equation in the puppy's head: biting makes humans boring; then you'll see the biting flare up, drop off (occasionally it drops without the flare), and become a memory.

BTW - this does NOT work for defensive biting or other kinds of biting that aren't social. Withholding your attention only works when the dog wants your attention. If you're grooming your dog and he bites you, and then you ignore him, you just rewarded him (because he was biting you to make you leave him alone, and you did).


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## Red Retrievers (Apr 15, 2011)

I wish I knew how to multiple quote as there are several comments I would like to quote. But I will just go by memory so if something is quoted wrong just chalk it up to my old age.
I agree that when a puppy bites it is inviting you to play. However in a pack if it bites an older dog to invite it to play the older dog will bite back. The pup can invite its equal to play but not someone higher up in the pack. So basically when you allow your pup to bite you are telling the pup you are its equal. When the pup has established that it is your equal or above you leads to many problems when you try to train the dog. It is now equal to or higher than you in the pack and has no reason to listen to you, you listen to the pup.
I do understand that some people cannot do anything that is negative to their pup. There are other ways to alter this behavior some of the methods in this post are effective others not so much. I have just found the lip pinch to be the quickest most effective way.
I have taught at least 30 pups not to bite using the lip pinch method. None of them are hand shy. Some still come up and hold hands and lick my hands, but none are hand shy.
I do not agree at all with the statement "Everyone needs to assess their own dog and situation, and do what they believe is necessary and appropriate." Many people can't read/assess the dog so how can they take the appropriate actions? When I first started training dogs I made many mistakes because I couldn't read the dog, I didn't have the experience. It took working with more experienced trainers and professional trainers to learn to read the dog. It takes time to gain the experience to learn how to read a dog. Novice owners rarely have the ability to read a dog and if they do have a natural ability to read a dog they should consider becoming a trainer. One of the reasons that forums work for the novice dog owners is there are people here with experience to help them learn. But with the good comes the bad because there are also those without experience just an opinion.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Red Retrievers said:


> I wish I knew how to multiple quote as there are several comments I would like to quote. But I will just go by memory so if something is quoted wrong just chalk it up to my old age.
> .....I do not agree at all with the statement "Everyone needs to assess their own dog and situation, and do what they believe is necessary and appropriate."....


You may not know my reasoning for adding that to my comments. The other day, I recommended squirting lemon juice into the mouth of a 7 month old dog who still bites excessively. That particular method immediately reduced my puppy's biting (then about 3.5 months old) by about 80-90% within about 2 days. It was apparently a controversial position to take with some, and even though I stated multiple times that folks need to decide for themselves how to address the biting, I was accused of being too disagreeable of other opinions. I will continue to pick my spots, and suggest what has worked for me, but I have no interest in a heated, multiple day debate about the topic.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

The only thing different that we did from this video was introduce the word "easy" when the puppy took the treat from the hand. Then applied the word easy when playing with her. 
IMHO it is better to teach before play time the words Easy and OUCH with a treat and then apply while playing.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm in the camp that believes punishment or pain inflicted on your puppy of any kind will not help the situation but could actually make things worse. In my opinion, I would steer clear of lip pinching, grabbing, or whatever other punishing technique was suggested here. 

Your puppy is 8 weeks old and the biting is not aggressive, it's teething and playing. Since its a normal behavior, anything you do may not get it to go away completely until they grow out of it, but there's things you can do to demonstrate its not acceptable and that you're not a chew toy. 

I think one of the best methods is simply getting up and walking away whenever your dog bites. This may take patience and a lot of movement on your part but I think it's one of the most effective, but it has to be done consistently and it's not going to get better overnight. Also, replacing your arm, hand or whatever else your dog is biting with a toy. Always have a toy handy to stick in their mouth. My last resort is bitter apple either sprayed on you or in their mouth as they are biting. It's not effective if you just spray them in their mouth at a time where they aren't biting. 

All of the above mentioned strategies have worked for me but with a lot of time and patience. Again, I think inflicting pain is not the answer, and it is my belief that it can negatively effect your relationship with your dog...just my personal opinion. 


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## Red Retrievers (Apr 15, 2011)

Nairb said:


> You may not know my reasoning for adding that to my comments. The other day, I recommended squirting lemon juice into the mouth of a 7 month old dog who still bites excessively. That particular method immediately reduced my puppy's biting (then about 3.5 months old) by about 80-90% within about 2 days. It was apparently a controversial position to take with some, and even though I stated multiple times that folks need to decide for themselves how to address the biting, I was accused of being too disagreeable of other opinions. I will continue to pick my spots, and suggest what has worked for me, but I have no interest in a heated, multiple day debate about the topic.


Not to get into any debate but all I was stating from that comment is that not everyone can properly assess a dog especially those with little or no experience.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Red Retrievers said:


> Not to get into any debate but all I was stating from that comment is that not everyone can properly assess a dog especially those with little or no experience.


I'm not disagreeing with that. I was just explaining why I put that in my comments last night. Not everyone is willing to do what you're suggesting, or even what I suggested the other day. I still stand by what has worked for me, and will continue to share that. Furthermore, I don't believe it's acceptable for a 60-70 puppy to bite excessively. 


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

To the OP...Sage is only 11 wks and we have been there. It is getting better, but hasn't stopped and some days are better than others. For us it was trial and error to find what worked/works.

I tried the yelping...no bite etc...talking to her ramps her up. I have a found a mixture of things work best for me. When she was your pups age we would do the redirecting etc and yeah it worked for a bit, but I have found this method is really seeming to work for he, here is what I am doing....First I trained her to sit and touch...When she is bitey I ask her for this and put her through some training paces. If for some reason she isn't listening, then I assume she is tired and put her in her crate...99.9% of the time she will just lay down and go to sleep, if she doesn't I wait till she quiets and then go let her out...usually she is a much calmer dog then. I do still tell her no bite, but I watch her for the sign she is going to, curled lip etc and stop her before she does it.

It is paying off and somethings work great for some pups something not so much. I think it is sometimes finding what works for you and sticking to it. Today Sage has only put her mouth on me once and I asked her if she was nuts, she pulled away immediately it was like the light bulb went of and she looked at me like...OMG did I just do that, I'm so sorry. Do I think we are done with the bitey stuff, nope, I continue to train train and train some more...Good luck!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Red Retrievers said:


> I agree that when a puppy bites it is inviting you to play. However in a pack if it bites an older dog to invite it to play the older dog will bite back. The pup can invite its equal to play but not someone higher up in the pack. So basically when you allow your pup to bite you are telling the pup you are its equal. When the pup has established that it is your equal or above you leads to many problems when you try to train the dog. It is now equal to or higher than you in the pack and has no reason to listen to you, you listen to the pup.


False in two ways. First, the idea of pack rank is based on faulty science that has since been updated. The guy who originated "dominance theory" by studying captive wolves denounced the simplistic interpretation of it, and totally updated it to something much more complex. That's what we mean when we say it's outdated to use dominance theory to train dogs.

Second, puppies routinely initiate play with older dogs by biting them. Have you never seen a puppy with a well-socialized adult dog? Have you never seen two well-socialized adult dogs play? They play bite _constantly_. My dogs play bite each other all the time, and it has nothing to do with rank. In dog communication, it's an invitation to start or continue play, not a simple expression of rank.



Red Retrievers said:


> I do understand that some people cannot do anything that is negative to their pup. There are other ways to alter this behavior some of the methods in this post are effective others not so much. I have just found the lip pinch to be the quickest most effective way.


Just to be clear, I can and I have done "negative" things to puppies. I've learned a lot since then, and I'm much better at training now. It is a really nice thing to be able to train a puppy all the way through his early weeks with you without ever making him flinch, wince, or cry out.



Red Retrievers said:


> I have taught at least 30 pups not to bite using the lip pinch method. None of them are hand shy. Some still come up and hold hands and lick my hands, but none are hand shy.


I'm glad you've never seen the side effect, but I have. When people—especially inexperienced people—grab at their puppy's muzzle, roll the lip onto those needle-sharp puppy teeth, and press down, they can absolutely create trust issues with that dog.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

By the way - I've seen a few people suggest teaching the dog to have a soft mouth. I think those exercises are great to pair along with methods that teach the dog that inappropriate mouthing stops play. They give your pup more ways to express his social behavior in productive ways instead of inappropriate ways.

You can smear peanut butter on your wide open hand, turned flat and perpendicular to the pup's mouth so it's too wide to bite. That can teach her to lick a hand instead of biting. Don't use this if you hate having a dog who licks your hands.

You can also do soft mouth exercises for taking treats: hold a soft treat in your closed fist with just a teeny bit poking out by your thumb. Let your pup try to get it. If her teeth touch skin, cover the treat with your thumb. When she resorts to licking and keeping her teeth clear, open up and let her have it.

Repeat. You want to teach her that a soft mouth leads to the treat coming loose and that a hard mouth leads to it disappearing further into your hand.

All these things can show her ways to interact with your hands that are appropriate while you show her what doesn't work. Giving alternatives can hasten the process along.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Our field trainer has said a number of times, it's not fair to correct a dog if they do not know the appropriate behavior. While he says this in terms of field training, I think it applies in the context of puppy play biting. 

I don't see how the lip pinch would work with an 8 week old puppy without teaching them the correct behavior. I am certainly not opposed to correcting my dogs, but I don't see how inflicting pain on a puppy that is trying to play is necessary. With all of our dogs we redirected them to appropriate items (usually high value items) and it worked. I did that in conjunction with a verbal correction (yelp, growl, NO) and praised them when they changed their focus to the high value item. Now it certainly didn't work immediately and they had to understand the expected behavior over time (they are babies after all) but eventually it stopped. 

I would encourage people to try to think logically when correcting their dogs and understand that just simply a lip pinch is not teaching your dog the appropriate behavior. How will they know what you expect if you are just pinching their lip or spraying something in their mouth without any re-direction?? Interestingly enough, all of our dogs now go and pick up a toy or chewy when they are very excited and trying to play with us. So we did something right in redirecting the behavior to the appropriate item. Something to think about.


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## Bob-N-Tash (Feb 24, 2008)

Tasha was an ankle biter at that young age. It made me crazy. Those little puppy teeth are so sharp.... like little pirannah teeth. It made me so crazy that I could hardly respond in a rational manner. Eventually, I resolved my problem by attaching a leash to my belt and allowing it to drag behind me all the time. Then, instead of my ankles, Tasha would go after the leash and once she had it she would follow me around. Eventually she outgrew the biting phase.


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## Bob-N-Tash (Feb 24, 2008)

We used 'time out' to correct another problem. This problem was that everytime I would swiffer the kitchen floor she thought it was some game and she would pounce on the swiffer. Yeah, it was cute and funny but I could visualize her wanting to play this same game with a vacuum cleaner and that could be dangerous. 
It only took 3-4 lessons but Tasha quickly learned that she did not want a time out. The next 3 times I began to swiffer the floor as soon as Tasha pounced on it I picked her up, put her in the crate, finished the floor, and only then let her out of the crate. The next time every muscle in her little body tensed up as a swiffer past her but she managed to control herself and not attack the swiffer as it zipped around the room. 

No scolding, no pinching, just a matter of fact response to her action.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Our field trainer has said a number of times, it's not fair to correct a dog if they do not know the appropriate behavior. While he says this in terms of field training, I think it applies in the context of puppy play biting.
> 
> I don't see how the lip pinch would work with an 8 week old puppy without teaching them the correct behavior. I am certainly not opposed to correcting my dogs, but I don't see how inflicting pain on a puppy that is trying to play is necessary. With all of our dogs we redirected them to appropriate items (usually high value items) and it worked. I did that in conjunction with a verbal correction (yelp, growl, NO) and praised them when they changed their focus to the high value item. Now it certainly didn't work immediately and they had to understand the expected behavior over time (they are babies after all) but eventually it stopped.
> 
> I would encourage people to try to think logically when correcting their dogs and understand that just simply a lip pinch is not teaching your dog the appropriate behavior. How will they know what you expect if you are just pinching their lip or spraying something in their mouth without any re-direction?? Interestingly enough, all of our dogs now go and pick up a toy or chewy when they are very excited and trying to play with us. So we did something right in redirecting the behavior to the appropriate item. Something to think about.


In regards to spraying lemon juice, I agree. The puppy should know the appropriate behavior before doing so. Redirection and praise for proper behavior was certainly part of it for me. I don't believe you can just grab an 8 week old puppy by the muzzle, spray the lemon juice, say "no bite," and expect them to know what is going on. I don't advocate lip pinching either way. As I said earlier, Bella just became agitated by it. That's not the behavior I want to reinforce. JMO, for what it's worth. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> By the way - I've seen a few people suggest teaching the dog to have a soft mouth. I think those exercises are great to pair along with methods that teach the dog that inappropriate mouthing stops play. They give your pup more ways to express his social behavior in productive ways instead of inappropriate ways.
> 
> You can smear peanut butter on your wide open hand, turned flat and perpendicular to the pup's mouth so it's too wide to bite. That can teach her to lick a hand instead of biting. Don't use this if you hate having a dog who licks your hands.
> 
> ...


We may not agree on everything in regards to the topic at hand, but those are great suggestions. Thanks. 


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## buddymygolden (Jan 27, 2013)

I have a ferret and he bites so I bought him this spray from Petco. The spray is called "TIME OUT" it said it can be used for puppies so I would try that. I know it worked for my ferret. I hope this helps!


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## I love Buddy (Jan 27, 2013)

There is a spray that you can buy its bitter you can spray it in there mouth and they will gag and do this when they bite you.


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## Roushbabe (Feb 20, 2011)

This is a great thread for newcomers as well as all the other guest's that lurk around and need help with their young puppies. This thread is solely in regards to a young puppy and if they are a lot older then I would suggest reading some other methods to help you control the situation since they are getting bigger and the biting will cause severe pain if not controlled.

I will tell you that I currently have a 9 week old puppy and the biting has been one of the only problems that gets me frustrated with him. I feel myself getting angry and I have to walk away and calm down. At one point he bit me and drew blood on my hand it was so fast and it hurt so much that I instantly smacked his nose and he ran away whimpering. I felt horrible and realized what I had done and didn't do it on purpose - it was just a natural reaction. It made me determined to find a better way at handling the issue. Since then I have read up a lot of threads on here, watch YouTube videos and have found what seems to be working for me. 

The 'ow/yelp' method didn't work, like others have said it just made him more excited. Walking away was worse - he would chase me and start to nip at my legs or clothes. So I decided to feed all his meals by my hand. Would do what tippykayak suggested, said 'gentle' and would give him the kibble only when his nose or tongue touched my hand. If I felt a tooth I would just back my hand away and try again. When he would be in a playful mood, I would OVERLY praise him with a toy in his mouth. Make him proud to have it and he would trot from person to person getting love and affection. As soon as his toy came out of the mouth and bit me, I became silent. He would give me eye contact for help and I would grab the toy again and put it in his mouth.. wait till he started to play and praise again. So far it's working great. 


I do like the suggestion about being completely 'boring' if the dog mouths you because as soon as the attention is away from the puppy they stop and reassess the situation to try and figure out what to do to make you exciting again. Having a toy with you is a good idea but sometimes a puppy is just done with toys and wants you. So maybe having treats there to reward the behavior (mouth off of hand) might help as well.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

It's a constant battle, Roushbabe. In our case, every time we thought it was getting better, it got worse. Be prepared for that. In addition, it hurts far more as they get bigger and stronger. Bella was a rather large puppy. About 30 lbs at 3 months, and very strong.


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## Roushbabe (Feb 20, 2011)

Keisel is 20lbs and just over 2 months. I have seen a big change in him with his biting and grabbing his toys instead when he gets somewhat excited. It's when he's overly excited it still is a problem. That I due to a lack of exercise for him that day and as soon as I walk him a few houses down and back or throw balls outside he calms down and is easier to redirect.


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## Dwyllis (Nov 22, 2012)

I would certainly never use a trainer who advised lip pinching on a young puppy, & I would never use that method myself. I used Timeout! For a couple of mins in his ex-pen .....I would say No Bite first followed by Timeout when he did not stop. Anything else just hyped him up even more, causing more biting. We are not dogs, we are human, & I am sure a puppy knows the difference. That being the case, I am skeptical of using methods used by the pack ....such as pinning, lip pinching, etc. Actually, I'm not skeptical, I just would not use them full stop. Teaching a small puppy through pain or fear, just does not sit well for me. Loki hated being separated from us, so a very brief spell of timeout worked well for him, & by around 14 weeks old, the biting was already phasing out. But at his peak, he drew blood on my husband several times, & sliced his ear open.


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## Huskr25 (Jan 11, 2013)

I agree, I feel like teaching through pain or fear just isn't right. The timeouts seem to be working better than the lip pinching as well.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

For the record.....I mentioned that I had tried the lip pinching a few times, and did not like it.

No trainer told me to do that. 

I think it was some guy in the neighborhood who first mentioned it, and I read it on this site. I'm pretty sure my trainer does not advocate it.

My vet actually said NOT to do it.


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## itsjustmisty (Jan 26, 2013)

A lot of good ideas have been mentioned. Another one, that I saw on one of those animal trainer shows where they go in to help an owner with a pet issue, is to give the puppy a low growl. It's supposed to mimic what their mom would do when she's grows tired of the nipping and climbing. It's just a low, throaty, growl. It took a little time for me to get used to doing it, it was just a bit unnatural. However, once I kind of figured it out, it seemed to have helped quite a bit. In fact, I've noticed a huge difference in Clover's (she's 9.5wks) mouthiness, lately. If she's getting too rough in her play with the kids, simply out of excitement, I add a loud clap to the throaty growl, she puts her bottom on the floor and closes her mouth. She's not always perfect, but progress is certainly noticed.


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## davebeech (Feb 11, 2006)

sorry, but I have to laugh, I could have throttled Tom when he was a pup, biting and shredding my hands and arms, and I tried everything too, but one day soon it will just stop and it will, just keep trying all the suggestions you've had and one day soon you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.


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## Dwyllis (Nov 22, 2012)

Sorry Nairb ....I was not getting at you ....I did not read through all the posts so not sure what you put in your comment. Not getting at anyone really, just saying that I would not use that lip pinching method myself ..my trainer uses positive re-inforcement, but before starting CGC Foundation with her, I read on the Internet that the biting would stop if I gently closed my hand round his muzzle & held it closed for a few seconds. I tried it several times when he would nip at my legs as I was walking, & all it did was make him really angry, so quickly stopped doing it & started using timeout for brief spells instead, & that started to work. I tried the rattling a can of coins everytime he nipped, & that startled him the first two times & then after that he would just look up & then return to the business at hand lol. The problem with advising new pet owners to do something quite physical to their small puppy, such as lip pinching (which I know you did not advise), is that the person giving that advice might be an experienced dog owner, & knows how to do the correction correctly & can keep control of themselves whilst doing it. A new pet owner, who is caught up in the heat of the moment, fed-up or angry with the puppy who is nipping painfully at body parts, could unintentionally be far too rough. This has always been a major concern to me. The method you & others have used to get biting under control, is not physically aggressive in the same way ....it actually reminds me of what my mother did to stop my brother sucking his thumb as a child .....she put some foul-tasting stuff on his thumb throughout the day & he soon stopped.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Dwyllis said:


> Sorry Nairb ....I was not getting at you ....I did not read through all the posts so not sure what you put in your comment. Not getting at anyone really, just saying that I would not use that lip pinching method myself ..my trainer uses positive re-inforcement, but before starting CGC Foundation with her, I read on the Internet that the biting would stop if I gently closed my hand round his muzzle & held it closed for a few seconds. I tried it several times when he would nip at my legs as I was walking, & all it did was make him really angry, so quickly stopped doing it & started using timeout for brief spells instead, & that started to work. I tried the rattling a can of coins everytime he nipped, & that startled him the first two times & then after that he would just look up & then return to the business at hand lol. The problem with advising new pet owners to do something quite physical to their small puppy, such as lip pinching (which I know you did not advise), is that the person giving that advice might be an experienced dog owner, & knows how to do the correction correctly & can keep control of themselves whilst doing it. A new pet owner, who is caught up in the heat of the moment, fed-up or angry with the puppy who is nipping painfully at body parts, could unintentionally be far too rough. This has always been a major concern to me. The method you & others have used to get biting under control, is not physically aggressive in the same way ....it actually reminds me of what my mother did to stop my brother sucking his thumb as a child .....she put some foul-tasting stuff on his thumb throughout the day & he soon stopped.


I didn't take your comment that way at all. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any misunderstanding. I've discussed other solutions recommended by my trainer, and have also had discussions on this site with others who know and have used my trainer. I'm just protecting her reputation by clarifying that she did not suggest it.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

What worked for me was gently holding his muzzle shut while saying "no bite". And lots of time outs!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

How is momma going to deal with her puppy(s) when it displays bratty behaviour? 

Give it a reward? No

Give it another toy? No

Momma is going to make it clear in no uncertain terms where the limits are, and she will not hesitate to correct her puppies when it is warranted. Momma in not going to let the behaviour persist, she is going to stop it.

If you want to put up with obnoxious behavior for months on end, that's your choice. I prefer to deal with it and have it done with in a day or two.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> How is momma going to deal with her puppy(s) when it displays bratty behaviour?
> 
> Give it a reward? No
> 
> ...


FWIW, I don't tolerate biting either. My pups are done within a day or two. I give people the 2-4 week window in order to be realistic because I think any technique is hard to apply effectively with your first pup. I just want to dispel the myth that the force free way is necessarily the slow way.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

That is a good point. Mama also doesn't spread peanut butter on her tail so the puppy licks it off instead of biting. No offense to anyone who does that. I think the bottom line is that there is no single solution that works for every dog. However, I would rather find out right away if something works or not. Lemon juice worked in one day. Not one week. Not one month. And she wasn't afraid of me as a result. In addition, my kids were willing to play with her more often. A win-win for everyone. 


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> FWIW, I don't tolerate biting either. My pups are done within a day or two. I give people the 2-4 week window in order to be realistic because I think any technique is hard to apply effectively with your first pup. I just want to dispel the myth that the force free way is necessarily the slow way.



Can I ask how you do it in a day or two (PLEASE)???? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to tell on the forum....I am most curious....I have followed a lot of your posts and they make a lot of sense....care to share any help...Sage is the hardest puppy to break of all the pups I have had, but she is also my first Golden....we are getting there but it's so slow...I'd love for it to be over and get on with the business of enjoying her and training...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Just a while ago, she was getting a little worked up, and nicked me pretty good in the wrist. All I had to do was walk over to fridge, grab the lemon juice and set it down next to me. She still wanted to play. She was just more careful. I haven't squirted it in her mouth for quite a while now. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Mayve said:


> Can I ask how you do it in a day or two (PLEASE)???? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to tell on the forum....I am most curious....I have followed a lot of your posts and they make a lot of sense....care to share any help...Sage is the hardest puppy to break of all the pups I have had, but she is also my first Golden....we are getting there but it's so slow...I'd love for it to be over and get on with the business of enjoying her and training...


I'm not keeping any secrets, lol. It's the "statue" method I described earlier. I just have a lot of practice with many dogs, so I have a really strong sense of the body language that says "I'm boring" and also how to reward dogs with good timing by becoming super fun when the pup gives me an alternative I want.

Get in your pup's head: she has a natural urge to mouth because she's a retriever, and she has a natural urge to play with you because she's a dog—and a Golden in particular. Biting would typically let her take out both of those urges at once. You want to show her how else she can be social with you and where else to take out her urge to mouth.

I'll actually let the pup mouth me while being as still as I possibly can. Usually they actually bite hard for a second, but then they give up and sit or at least back up and cock their head at me. That's when I come to life and reward and play with toys.

If biting is never rewarding, it disappears really quickly, like any other non-rewarded, non-habitual behavior. It just never works, so they don't stick with it. And the more confident you can make her about what _does_ work to get your attention, like sitting, bringing a toy, doing tricks, etc., the faster she'll learn to offer the good alternatives instead of the unwanted biting.

Given that your pup has a little practice with nipping, I doubt it'll fade that fast, but I doubt _any_ technique is capable of giving you results overnight right now. I still think the statue thing, done well, is the fastest, nicest way to do it.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Tippy, in your experience, is the statue method effective in households with younger children? I assume everyone who comes in contact with the dog would have to do the same thing for it to be effective. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> Tippy, in your experience, is the statue method effective in households with younger children? I assume everyone who comes in contact with the dog would have to do the same thing for it to be effective.


No, not at all. If the kids squeal, jerk away, push the pup, etc. when he mouths, that'll teach him to keep at it in other contexts. I don't know how you train a puppy not to bite kids beyond managing all interactions between the kids and the puppy. Kids 6 and over seem to be able to handle it pretty well, especially if they're good at following directions and not being exciting when they get nipped. Kids under that, you just have to manage the interaction.

I think that applies regardless of the method you use. Statue is probably the easiest for a child. I certainly don't want a 7-year-old trying lip pinching.

Same goes for jumping. If he's rewarded for doing it with kids, he'll keep at it much longer with adults.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> No, not at all. If the kids squeal, jerk away, push the pup, etc. when he mouths, that'll teach him to keep at it in other contexts. I don't know how you train a puppy not to bite kids beyond managing all interactions between the kids and the puppy. Kids 6 and over seem to be able to handle it pretty well, especially if they're good at following directions and not being exciting when they get nipped. Kids under that, you just have to manage the interaction.
> 
> I think that applies regardless of the method you use. Statue is probably the easiest for a child. I certainly don't want a 7-year-old trying lip pinching.
> 
> Same goes for jumping. If he's rewarded for doing it with kids, he'll keep at it much longer with adults.


My kids were not able to stand there and allow themselves to be bitten. They are 8 and 10. My 8 year old daughter is smaller than Bella. Up until recently, we rarely allowed them to be in a room together unsupervised, because her high pitched voice does tend to excite Bella. A couple of times, Bella literally tackled her and wouldn't let her up. Of course, she perceived it as play, but it was dangerous nonetheless. At the time, she was probably 40-45 lbs and between 4-5 months. She had been doing the same thing to me, but of course wasn't able to tackle me. This is when I introduced her to the squirt bottle, which seemed to put a stop to it after a few days. 


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> I'm not keeping any secrets, lol. It's the "statue" method I described earlier. I just have a lot of practice with many dogs, so I have a really strong sense of the body language that says "I'm boring" and also how to reward dogs with good timing by becoming super fun when the pup gives me an alternative I want.
> 
> Get in your pup's head: she has a natural urge to mouth because she's a retriever, and she has a natural urge to play with you because she's a dog—and a Golden in particular. Biting would typically let her take out both of those urges at once. You want to show her how else she can be social with you and where else to take out her urge to mouth.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I've made some mistakes. At first I was confusing her, totally my fault because I was conflicted between no teeth ever on skin or letting her mouth until it hurt. I found that she was constantly going after me, my hands, arms, legs, even my butt...If I stand up I can't walk away, it's a game and she nips my rear...I have bruises to prove it, she taught me through negative consequences to make like a tree. I have since gone to the just not playing with her and ignoring her when she bites, sounds like I should still play with her, just wait till she lets go and then play with her/give her praise. 

Thank you for the advice, it is appreciated!


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## Red Retrievers (Apr 15, 2011)

edit wrong quote


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## Red Retrievers (Apr 15, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> False in two ways. First, the idea of pack rank is based on faulty science that has since been updated. The guy who originated "dominance theory" by studying captive wolves denounced the simplistic interpretation of it, and totally updated it to something much more complex. That's what we mean when we say it's outdated to use dominance theory to train dogs.
> 
> Second, puppies routinely initiate play with older dogs by biting them. Have you never seen a puppy with a well-socialized adult dog? Have you never seen two well-socialized adult dogs play? They play bite _constantly_. My dogs play bite each other all the time, and it has nothing to do with rank. In dog communication, it's an invitation to start or continue play, not a simple expression of rank.
> 
> ...


 
There are studies both ways concerning pack rank just pick your side. I tend to go with the dominance theory, you go the other way and there is nothing wrong with that. But I see there is dominance in pack behavior in my own dogs. Would you put two intact males in with a female in heat? I wouldn't because they will try to determine who is Top Dog. 
Our pack of 8 adult Goldens, 3 nine week old pups and 2 non Goldens range in age from 9 weeks to 11 years of age, so, YES, I have seen a puppy play with a well socialized adult. In fact, I see it often. What I see is the 8 to 12 week old pup will use their mouth and teeth on an adult and all of the adult dogs will use their mouth to grab the muzzle of the pup and correct their behavior. The teen agers will not discipline the pups at all but will play. Too rough usually but it is all play. If the teen agers play to rough or act out of their pack order the adult dog will put them in their place just like a puppy. It is called teaching the rules of behavior.
Of course the adults play bite - I thought this post was about puppy biting and not adult play? When adults play it is more like jousting and neither dog spends too much time on their back. 
You are correct that I have never seen the side effect because there has never been one, either in the dogs we keep or pups we sell. A new owner calls with the biting issue and we give the lip roll advice and later hear how wonderful the dog has turned out.
I think that it is a good thing when people have different opinions and way to accomplish the same task. I also like to learn and expand my training abilities. What I don't like is when people get condescending and believe that they are always right and others wrong. Their way is the only way. I respect what you do and have no problems with you training any way you choose if it works for you that's good.
Maybe my methods aren't meant to be shared on this forum. All I can say is I have had very good results competing with my dogs and the way I train.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I swear, Mother Nature stole my memory. I know we had a biting issue but I cannot recollect how bad it got. I know we tried yelping, yelping and walking away, stuffing a toy in his mouth, ignoring him, time outs, lemon juice (once or twice), peanut butter on my palm, holding his muzzle shut and saying "no bite."

All and all, I think it was a combination of all of the above. Now, here we are at 5.5 months in the middle of teething and Bear will rarely put teeth on me. If he does, he immediately lets go, and sits down. When his teeth hurt, he walks away from me and grabs a toy. When he gets overexcited, he might forget for a min or two and I'll tell him "no! Find me a toy!!" And he'll bring me back a toy to play with. This took a lot of time, and persistence. 

We did have a serious incident where he nailed my finger, I didn't make a noise but I jerked my hand instinctively. Within seconds it was bleeding bad, I burst into tears and started wailing (shhhh I'm a big baby.) Bear laid on the couch confused, but I think he really got that I was hurt bad. It should never come to that to teach the puppy. 

Milk teeth are much sharper than adult teeth and as they age, jaw strength ramps up, which is why IMO bite inhibition needs to be taught from day one. I felt like utter poo when I held his muzzle shut, but right now, if I reach for his muzzle, it is only to turn his head my way so he can focus on me. We have no aversion to our hands or to handling. He trusts me completely. 


I agree with nairB in that you need to access your own situation. For us, without kids, we could allow soft mouthing. It would have been different if we had kids. 

Good luck. Just keep chanting "it'll soon be over."


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Red Retrievers said:


> There are studies both ways concerning pack rank just pick your side.


Not really. There's nobody that I know of who currently studies wolves who writes papers about fixed pack rank in wolves. They write about contextual dominance now.



Red Retrievers said:


> I tend to go with the dominance theory, you go the other way and there is nothing wrong with that. But I see there is dominance in pack behavior in my own dogs. Would you put two intact males in with a female in heat? I wouldn't because they will try to determine who is Top Dog.


But if you like the science of wolf behavior, why don't you respect scientific progress? The science has moved on from the idea of "top dog." If two dogs are fighting for food or a bitch in heat, they're doing exactly that. In fact, a fight is a _failure_ of pack hierarchy, not a demonstration of it.



Red Retrievers said:


> Our pack of 8 adult Goldens, 3 nine week old pups and 2 non Goldens range in age from 9 weeks to 11 years of age, so, YES, I have seen a puppy play with a well socialized adult. In fact, I see it often. What I see is the 8 to 12 week old pup will use their mouth and teeth on an adult and all of the adult dogs will use their mouth to grab the muzzle of the pup and correct their behavior.


Really? Because what I see is the pups getting away with murder until they actually nick an adult dog who finally tells them off. I see the same thing with my two adult dogs: they play until somebody gets hurt, and the hurt one yelps, which stops play, at least temporarily. There's no static ranking. Jax goes through doors first, almost every time. Comet ends up with whatever toy he really wants, almost every time. Jax will shove past Comet to get at food, but if Comet gets there first, Jax never takes it out of his mouth. This is a complex relationship between two dogs, not a top dog and a bottom dog.



Red Retrievers said:


> The teen agers will not discipline the pups at all but will play. Too rough usually but it is all play. If the teen agers play to rough or act out of their pack order the adult dog will put them in their place just like a puppy. It is called teaching the rules of behavior.


I do agree that they teach each other how to communicate and how to bite appropriately. I just don't think that the reality matches up to old school dominance theory.



Red Retrievers said:


> Of course the adults play bite - I thought this post was about puppy biting and not adult play? When adults play it is more like jousting and neither dog spends too much time on their back.


I mentioned it because you said the the puppies bite the humans because they haven't yet learned that the humans are top dogs. I gave the adult dogs as an example that mouthing and biting don't happen because the dog is trying to assert himself over another dog (or person). It's a play gesture, which is exactly why well socialized dogs tend to take turns giving submissive postures.



Red Retrievers said:


> You are correct that I have never seen the side effect because there has never been one, either in the dogs we keep or pups we sell. A new owner calls with the biting issue and we give the lip roll advice and later hear how wonderful the dog has turned out.


I'm glad it always works out with your pups. I've seen the other side of some of these techniques and the handshy dogs they produce. Whether the owners were unclear, or too rough, it does happen, and I've dealt with the consequences on a number of occasions. So it's hard for me to say "live and let live" as if I truly believed all training methods were equal. I simply don't think it's good for a puppy to have its lip pinched like that, especially when there are other methods that meet the same goal at least as quickly.



Red Retrievers said:


> I think that it is a good thing when people have different opinions and way to accomplish the same task. I also like to learn and expand my training abilities. What I don't like is when people get condescending and believe that they are always right and others wrong. Their way is the only way. I respect what you do and have no problems with you training any way you choose if it works for you that's good.
> 
> Maybe my methods aren't meant to be shared on this forum. All I can say is I have had very good results competing with my dogs and the way I train.


When I say "that's false" or "you're wrong," that's me respecting your ideas enough to contradict them and to provide support for what I'm saying. I certainly don't think my way is the only way, but I also don't think all methods are created equal or that all methods have an equal amount of evidence supporting them. When you espouse a version of dominance theory that came out of wolf behavioral science, it's not unfair or condescending to point out that there's much, much more new evidence that currently tells us that dominance is contextual to each situation, not fixed as a rank in the pack. Just because someone holds an opinion doesn't mean we have to pretend that it has as much evidence behind it as every other opinion. That would be far more condescending than simply saying "you're wrong; here's why."

If you've had good results, I'm all ears about how you accomplished it; I've learned a ton from the trainers on this forum. If you think I'm wrong, please tell me so and why. I'm here to learn, not to win. There was certainly no condescension meant, but it obviously came across that way, so I'm sorry. It's my job to calibrate my tone, and I didn't get it right.


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## Red Retrievers (Apr 15, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Not really. There's nobody that I know of who currently studies wolves who writes papers about fixed pack rank in wolves. They write about contextual dominance now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This thread is about puppy biting and has gotten way off track. I think it would be bettter to begin another thread concerning pack behavior and interaction than to continue to debate these issues on this post.


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## uknowk3 (Jan 3, 2013)

NORMAL lol my kaesie is 10weeks, and shes stopped biting me...but attacks my girl friend.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Brave said:


> I agree with nairB in that you need to access your own situation. For us, without kids, we could allow soft mouthing. It would have been different if we had kids.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree also. Every dog and every situation is different. It's not a one size fit all technique when training.


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