# Millstone goldens?



## emibean

Does anyone know anything about this breeder?
Thank you


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Just went to their website and it looks like from there that all the dogs on the site were born in 2007, which would be too young to breed. Do they have others that are not on the site ?? Also, are they being shown in AKC events????? One other thought I will be interested in hearing answers from our breeders..... what are the implications of having all of those dogs from one breeder?? I'm very much in the learning mode so I'll look forward to what our experts have to say.


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## Pointgold

I wonder why Mickey Gabrielle (Chien D'Or) sold her so many dogs...?
She is showing strictly UKC, not AKC.


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## Gwen

I just looked @ the website & have a couple of questions.

1. How do you get all of the certifications done before 18 months?

2. What age are puppies being shown & winning BPIS? The pictures shown are of puppies not even close to 6 months????


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## Pointgold

Gwen said:


> I just looked @ the website & have a couple of questions.
> 
> 1. How do you get all of the certifications done before 18 months?
> 
> 2. What age are puppies being shown & winning BPIS? The pictures shown are of puppies not even close to 6 months????


 
She indicates that they are prelims for hip/elbow. But they are not on the OFA database. CERF will check eyes. And those are UKC shows and matches. She could also be doing the IKC shows.


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## vrocco1

hehehe I don't get into all of the details, but I love the pictures. 

Is it just me, or did none of the links to K9data work?


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## paula bedard

Not a breeder, just curious. There is no Puppy Nursery, so maybe they aren't breeding yet??? Also, the original post didn't mention buying a pup....maybe just curious too?


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## telsmith1

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Just went to their website and it looks like from there that all the dogs on the site were born in 2007, which would be too young to breed. Do they have others that are not on the site ?? Also, are they being shown in AKC events????? One other thought I will be interested in hearing answers from our breeders..... what are the implications of having all of those dogs from one breeder?? I'm very much in the learning mode so I'll look forward to what our experts have to say.



Her name is Dawn Wung. They have 18 dogs (she told me this herself). For some reason they dont have them all on their site. She met with my (Diva's) trainer a few weeks ago (I was at my trainers house when she stopped by) about showing a couple of her males in AKC, but my trainer never heard back from her. I do know that they have had litters already this year, but I do not know how many litters.


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## Pointgold

I put out an inquiry on the Work_Gold list, as well as to several MI breeders in the downstate area, for references on this kennel. Based on every one of the replies that I have gotten, I cannot recommend it.


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## arcane

Pointgold said:


> I put out an inquiry on the Work_Gold list, as well as to several MI breeders in the downstate area, for references on this kennel. Based on every one of the replies that I have gotten, I cannot recommend it.


I know of a Canadian breeder that has just sold her one (2?) puppies from their fall 07 litters but I do not know anything further:no:


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## arcane

i just visited the site ...all I can say is Holy Toledo


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## tintallie

Wiggles says, "Rut Roh!?"


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## emibean

Thank you for the replies......very helpful.


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## wungdawn

I am the owner of Millstones Golden,

We currently show in UKC and periodically in AKC.
As for OFA clearances, if you are doing them you would know that they don't get posted on their (OFA's) website until you get final numbers assigned to them.

You have no right to go saying how many dogs we have or that we're bad breeders. Did you ever wonder if that on our website ONLY championed dogs are posted? Or that we have older dogs who we are actually breeding? Before going and making up rumors, please ask first. You don't know who we are or what we are breeding, so dont say that we're breeding our 1 year old dogs!... p.s.. (ITS NOT TRUE)

I dont know how many, if any of you guys do test breedings, or watch your COI's??
Or maybe you just dont know what that is.. 

We show our dogs at least twice a month, and have a highly respectable kennel!

I really doubt that any of you love this breed more than us, or do more than us to perfect this breed. So before making judgments, please take the time to find the answers first!

And if you're going to say stuff about us, say it too our face, and not around our backs!

Thanks

Dawn Wung
www.millstonesgolden.com


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## Jo Ellen

> All of our puppies come pre spoiled and ready to continue in that tradition.


That made me smile


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## telsmith1

wungdawn said:


> As for OFA clearances, if you are doing them you would know that they don't get posted on their (OFA's) website until you get final numbers assigned to them.


I'm not arguing, but this is not entirely true. Prelims are listed on the OFA website if they are done after the dog is one year old. Just an FYI.


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## Pointgold

telsmith1 said:


> I'm not arguing, but this is not entirely true. Prelims are listed on the OFA website if they are done after the dog is one year old. Just an FYI.


Exactly. 
As for myself, I asked for referrals and references and got them from Michigan breeders who are in fact respected, compete in several venues, both AKC _and_ UKC (and have for many years...), do all health clearances, and many of whom had received inquiries from the breeder in question regarding purchasing dogs. I know what their responses were. Again, based on those replies, I cannot recommend this kennel.

And as an aside, many of us here have been breeding and showing dogs for a very long time, and are very aware of OFA requirements and how they function.


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## arcane

wungdawn said:


> I am the owner of Millstones Golden,
> 
> We currently show in UKC and periodically in AKC.
> As for OFA clearances, if you are doing them you would know that they don't get posted on their (OFA's) website until you get final numbers assigned to them.
> 
> You have no right to go saying how many dogs we have or that we're bad breeders. Did you ever wonder if that on our website ONLY championed dogs are posted? Or that we have older dogs who we are actually breeding? Before going and making up rumors, please ask first. You don't know who we are or what we are breeding, so dont say that we're breeding our 1 year old dogs!... p.s.. (ITS NOT TRUE)
> 
> I dont know how many, if any of you guys do test breedings, or watch your COI's??
> Or maybe you just dont know what that is..
> 
> We show our dogs at least twice a month, and have a highly respectable kennel!
> 
> I really doubt that any of you love this breed more than us, or do more than us to perfect this breed. So before making judgments, please take the time to find the answers first!
> 
> And if you're going to say stuff about us, say it too our face, and not around our backs!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dawn Wung
> www.millstonesgolden.com


Hello Dawn
I see from another visit to your site that you have revamped and changed alot of what was up for viewing previous. How many puppies did you purchase in 2007? How do you manage to train/socialize/show that many under the age of 1 yr? Perhaps I am naive but I know how much work 1-2 puppies are. Yes I have been known to keep 3 to grow out for a few weeks/months but never would consider growing out 5-8. I do also believe if you do prelims and send them in to OFA they do list them...I am not certain as I use a canadian governing body most times and don't routinely do prelims ... please do share your reasoning and goals as a breeder with us :wave:

welcome to the forum...I hope you enjoy your stay


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## Ljilly28

wungdawn said:


> I am the owner of Millstones Golden,
> 
> We currently show in UKC and periodically in AKC.
> As for OFA clearances, if you are doing them you would know that they don't get posted on their (OFA's) website until you get final numbers assigned to them.
> 
> You have no right to go saying how many dogs we have or that we're bad breeders. Did you ever wonder if that on our website ONLY championed dogs are posted? Or that we have older dogs who we are actually breeding? Before going and making up rumors, please ask first. You don't know who we are or what we are breeding, so dont say that we're breeding our 1 year old dogs!... p.s.. (ITS NOT TRUE)
> 
> I dont know how many, if any of you guys do test breedings, or watch your COI's??
> Or maybe you just dont know what that is..
> 
> We show our dogs at least twice a month, and have a highly respectable kennel!
> 
> I really doubt that any of you love this breed more than us, or do more than us to perfect this breed. So before making judgments, please take the time to find the answers first!
> 
> And if you're going to say stuff about us, say it too our face, and not around our backs!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dawn Wung
> www.millstonesgolden.com


Dawn, No one means any harm at all but only to help a novice. Maybe it is good feedback for you about how to change your website so that it best represents your mission and your truth if you feel you have been wronged. The whole point of a website is good public relations, so now you can see that the nuts&bolts, nitty gritty information needed by your puppy buyer cannot be accessed. Most of what you are reacting to were questions bc the information is hard to come by but the advertisement is public. 

Breeders with nothing to hide are rarely defensive or aggressive. Sorry if your feelings are hurt, but your prospective puppy buyer is being very responsible in doing her homework, and your testing etc is too hard to find.

Are you brand new , and have just bred your first litter? That is what your nursery page seems to imply. If so, open your heart to Arcane and Pointgold and all the other vastly experienced breeders here and let them help you instead of declaring war.

This is for Stryker. It says Prelims done, but not the result. It just looks suspicious even if it is not. 

Hips/Elbows: Prelims done and evaluated on 11/2007 Hips re-evaluated on 6-20-08


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## Pointgold

I'd also like to add that as regards doing test breedings and watching COI's, I've been doing that for as long as K9 Data has been available.
I'd also be interested to know the direction that you are taking your breeding program, as the breeders who responded to my inquiries had vastly different bloodlines in their pedigrees, and it would seem that your interest was quite random. As someone who studies pedigrees, I would be very interested in what your reasoning/projections are.


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## Ljilly28

> say it too our face, and not around our backs!


Behind your back? This is as public and out in the open as could be.


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## wungdawn

To start this out:

You can not tell what a kennel is like through their webpage. And that is EXACTLY what you're doing.
Thank you for the nice comments, but not the bad.

Our webpage has been greatly changed recently, because everyone wants to bash us and find EVERY little thing wrong, including this forum. Are you guys trying to degrade us?? You say that you're trying to help us, but this is NOT helping!! Our pedigree is improving the breed to the best of our abilities, and our breeding line IS going somewhere, in the right direction! The whole training B.S. is so untrue! If you didn't notice, all but TWO of our dogs is not championed, and ALL of our dogs had their hips and elbows rated GOOD!! We can AND DO train 5-6 dogs a year, because we're trying to make this breed better, and this is not just one person training, its a team of individuals. ANDDD... prelims are NOT LISTED ON OFA'S WEBSITE OFA only realeases the clearances if you sign off on them, which we don't, and we dont have anything to hide! Dont judge us.

Thanks you and have a nice day!!


Dawn Wung


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## wungdawn

THIS IS NOT TO OUR FACE!!! To our face means not hiding behind a computer screen. To our face means not e-mailing other breeders about us (UNTRUE STUFF). To our face means telling us which kennel your from, and not e-mailing us asking for information as a fake person! That is what to our face means!

Thank you and have an AWESOME DAY!!!

:]]


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## Ljilly28

wungdawn said:


> To start this out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can not tell what a kennel is like through their webpage.
> 
> 
> 
> What is the_ point_ of a webpage if not to show the best of what your kennel is like? It is published to the general public for the purpose of being looked at for info.
> 
> No one wants to criticize an innocent - just to verify good practice and due diligence.
Click to expand...


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## wungdawn

And what is the best of what a web page is supposed to look like? Ohh.. what was wrong with our web page to begin?? Nobody and nothing is perfect, including our webpage. Tell us what is wrong on it, all of this began over people thinking that we were breeding our 1 year old dogs (UNTRUE), because those are the ones posted on our web page.

Thanks and have just a TRULY special day

:0


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## Pointgold

wungdawn said:


> To start this out:
> 
> You can not tell what a kennel is like through their webpage. And that is EXACTLY what you're doing.
> Thank you for the nice comments, but not the bad.
> 
> Our webpage has been greatly changed recently, because everyone wants to bash us and find EVERY little thing wrong, including this forum. Are you guys trying to degrade us?? You say that you're trying to help us, but this is NOT helping!! Our pedigree is improving the breed to the best of our abilities, and our breeding line IS going somewhere, in the right direction! The whole training B.S. is so untrue! If you didn't notice, all but TWO of our dogs is not championed, and ALL of our dogs had their hips and elbows rated GOOD!! We can AND DO train 5-6 dogs a year, because we're trying to make this breed better, and this is not just one person training, its a team of individuals. ANDDD... prelims are NOT LISTED ON OFA'S WEBSITE OFA only realeases the clearances if you sign off on them, which we don't, and we dont have anything to hide! Dont judge us.
> 
> Thanks you and have a nice day!!
> 
> 
> Dawn Wung


Dawn, here are some unbiased observations: Much of the terminology that you use is very indicative of a novice. We all were novices at one time or another, but you must understand that when someone has been breeding, training, and exhibiting dogs for well over 20 or 30 years is contacted by a relative novice, flags are raised if that person is representing themself as being experienced, having certain accomplishments, etc, when the way things are said, as well as _what _is actually said, is incorrect or not entirely accurate. Many of the breeders who replied to my VALID inquiry (which was simply to ask if anyone could provide references for you as a breeder - we do this all the time, and anyone who does NOT could be getting something less than what they are paying for ) were breeders who you yourself contacted in attempts to purchase dogs from. No one "bashed" you. But neither were any of them willing/able to provide solid references. 
Your above statement is a good example, Dawn. 
*MILLSTONE GOLDENS OAKLEY  *

*Registration:*SR17386107 (AKC)*Sire:*SN59551907 
No photo on file *Breed:*GOLDEN RETRIEVER *Dam:*SN56735005*Sex:*M**Titles:**Color:*LIGHT GOLD*CHIC #:*41113*Birthdate:*Apr 26 2004 *Addtl. Reg. #**DNA Profile:* 
OFA Number Registry Test/Film Date Report Date Age Final Conclusion GR-CA10585/22M/C-PICARDIACMar 4 2006 Mar 17 2006 22NORMAL - CARDIOLOGISTGR-PA160/37M/P-PIPATELLAJun 14 2007 Jul 18 2007 37NORMAL - PRACTITIONERGR-SH42M37-PISHOULDERJun 14 2007 Jul 18 2007 37NORMALGR-93179F37M-PIHIPSJun 14 2007 Jul 19 2007 37FAIRGR-EL16106M37-PIELBOWJun 14 2007 Jul 19 2007 37NORMALGR-30932CERFAug 17 2007 Aug 17 2007 40TESTED: 06,07

Oakley is a "FAIR". And Brooklyn was bred, albeit possibly accidentally, at 10 months old. 
What may seem like small discrepancies to some, is reason to question much to others. 
Why, if pre-lims were good, would you NOT want them posted? I would think that you would want them posted on the OFA database not only because they are optimistic, but to validate your own claims. 

As for not being able to tell about a kennel by their webpage, that is a double edged sword - so many fraudulent claims are made via the internet that have caused heartache and pain for many puppy buyers and their dogs, that people are learning to scrutinize them VERY carefully, and when what is claimed cannot be validated, that breeder will be put in a position to have to defend those claims. Conversely, a reputable, responsible breeder, doing things right and who is proud of their accomplishments, will build a website showcasing that and presenting as accurate a picture as possible.


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## arcane

wungdawn said:


> TThe whole training B.S. is so untrue! If you didn't notice, all but TWO of our dogs is not championed, and ALL of our dogs had their hips and elbows rated GOOD!! We can AND DO train 5-6 dogs a year, because we're trying to make this breed better, and this is not just one person training, its a team of individuals. ANDDD... prelims are NOT LISTED ON OFA'S WEBSITE OFA only realeases the clearances if you sign off on them, which we don't, and we dont have anything to hide! Dont judge us.
> 
> Dawn Wung


If you have nothing to hide why not sign off on them? and have your prelims posted? I do know the work it takes to train a dog properly, socialize, feed, scoop poop, etc etc.... I do show in CKC shows so also know the ins-outs of the show ring. I am not making light of your UKC ch's but you certainly wouldn't be championing 5-6 AKC champions under 1 year of age in 5-6 months. Of that I am certain unless you have mega bucks for pro-handlers!!!!!!!!! why the defensive attitude when simple straight forward questions are being asked ?

you have a truly great day!


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## wungdawn

Do I hear anyone asking me why Oakley is not on my website anymore well it is because he did only get a fair and because he threw gay tails on his off spring and what did that get him NEUTERED. I have been trying really hard to deal with all the hate mail I get and still stay positive however this last example of how nasty everyone can be is a good one. I inquired about a lot of dogs over the past year and just because you inquire does not mean you are looking to buy. I am always looking to improve what I have and what I am doing, however some people have made that more challenging then what it needs to be. I am not a back yard breeder, I am a hobby breeder that wants to improve the breed. I don't mean to be defensive but put you self in my position and tell me you wouldn't be then.


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## wungdawn

And as for not releasing my results of x-rays for prelims, I got burned by OFA and took me months to get it corrected and it was very costly to do, so I would rather have control over what I do with them.


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## arcane

wungdawn said:


> I have been trying really hard to deal with all the hate mail I get and still stay positive however this last example of how nasty everyone can be is a good one. I don't mean to be defensive but put you self in my position and tell me you wouldn't be then.


I don't believe anyone has been hateful or nasty; questions were asked, a forum member asked for references, plain & simple, information was provided. I believe a positive response from yourself clearly answering questions may have been much more beneficial than coming on here with guns drawn.


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## wungdawn

I have tried over the last month to be positive and be nice and to try and answer question when they were brought fourth. If this person wanted to know more about me, then why did she not e-mail me or ask to come meet me in person, no she has to send off a note to Chien D'or's totally bashing me to Miki. Miki gave me a chance and now I may never get that chance again because of one person, one note. How would you feel. I have worked so hard at this, I do everything that is right and then all of a sudden one note and lots of people looking to condeme you and your dream comes to an end that easy, that simple.


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## tintallie

As a consumer that has been reading a LOT before and after purchasing a Golden Retriever in June 2006, I would be very hesitant to purchase a puppy based on the information that is public. Although I checked into the clearances of my own dog, there are still somethings now that I wish I knew back when I signed my cheque.

Based on the UKC dogs that you have obtained CH's on, I was looking at all their ages on k9data.com and they are younger than my dog who is 28 months old. He is just of the age (24 months and up) where an OFA X-ray would confirm the condition of his hips. How can you tell the hips are going to be okay when you had preliminaries done on your puppies at the ages of 4-6 months as listed?

Based on your website, your oldest dog listed is Brooklyn who born on January 8, 2007 is currently 18 months old, but she had a litter December 30, 2007. If you subtract the 60 something days for gestation, she would have gotten pregnant at the end of October 2007 which would put her as barely 10 months old. This makes me infer that this could be a litter on Brooklyn's first heat. The litter is listed on here: http://www.k9data.com/offspring.asp?ID=264116


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## Debles

Why are you receiving tons of hate mail? That doesn't make any sense.

And I surely wouldn't think one negative note would turn someone off to you unless they totally trusted that person's opinion? I would definitely be wanting opinions from others.

You also asked people not to judge you. Well, that is only being a responsible dog owner by checking out , researching, and judging who is a good breeder before I risk my money and love on a golden puppy. If you are ethical, you shouldn't have a problem with it.


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## wungdawn

Alot of people think Champion a dog in UKC is easy it is not, it is not as hard as AKC but I feel my dogs win for what they are and not what I can make them look like. UKC does not allow professional handlers (yes, you can get around this if you wanted) they do not allow chalk, mousse, or anything else put on the dogs, they want them to be shown naturally. None of my dogs Championed at 5-6 months most of them did not Champion until 10-12 months and chances are I had shown them to at lease 40-45 judges to get those wins. In UKC you can start to show you dog in Non Licensed Class at 12 weeks of age and up to 6 months and my puppies that took BPIS was in that age group. If everyone is so concerned on here why don't you tell me how to be better. My e-mail is ****

*Please feel free to PM Dawn, I removed her email address to prevent her from being spammed.
Vern*


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## PeanutsMom

Debles said:


> Why are you receiving tons of hate mail? That doesn't make any sense.
> 
> And I surely wouldn't think one negative note would turn someone off to you unless they totally trusted that person's opinion? I would definitely be wanting opinions from others.
> 
> You also asked people not to judge you. Well, that is only being a responsible dog owner by checking out , researching, and judging who is a good breeder before I risk my money and love on a golden puppy. If you are ethical, you shouldn't have a problem with it.


I can see where a negative note from the right person could really screw up what they've worked for. It has happened.


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## arcane

I myself will take what is forwarded to me with a grain of salt as I know there are a lot of hurtful malicious people out there just itching to bad mouth a person based on innuendoes. If you have based a relationship on trust and honesty then I can't see a breeder just dropping you like a hot potatoe based on one persons opinion.


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## Debles

arcane said:


> I myself will take what is forwarded to me with a grain of salt as I know there are a lot of hurtful malicious people out there just itching to bad mouth a person based on innuendoes. If you have based a relationship on trust and honesty then I can't see a breeder just dropping you like a hot potatoe based on one persons opinion.



Thanks Heather. That was my point. Unless I trusted that person to a fault, I'd get more opinions and do my own research.


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## Pointgold

wungdawn said:


> Do I hear anyone asking me why Oakley is not on my website anymore well it is because he did only get a fair and because he threw gay tails on his off spring and what did that get him NEUTERED. I have been trying really hard to deal with all the hate mail I get and still stay positive however this last example of how nasty everyone can be is a good one. I inquired about a lot of dogs over the past year and just because you inquire does not mean you are looking to buy. I am always looking to improve what I have and what I am doing, however some people have made that more challenging then what it needs to be. I am not a back yard breeder, I am a hobby breeder that wants to improve the breed. I don't mean to be defensive but put you self in my position and tell me you wouldn't be then.


 
Oakley was on your website as recently as yesterday. He got the "Fair" rating a year ago. 
No one here has been the least bit "hateful", Dawn. Anyone who builds a website with public access to advertise their dogs had better be well prepared to be able to provide proof of all claims made, as they are easily verified. Anyone in the market to purchase a puppy would be derelect NOT to check references, and good breeders not only are not offended by potential buyers doing so, but ENCOURAGE them to. And that means OUTSIDE references, not just taking the breeders own claims as gospel. \
And that is what has been done here. 
I also heard from one breeder who has sold dogs to you and that breeder has changed her sales contract in part due to your situation. This breeder in no way bashed you, but simply offered information from which to base a recommendation either for or against, based on my own feelings about it. 
I currently stand by my decision to not recommend at this time.


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## PeanutsMom

I think some things may be able to to be explained if you were able to talk to Dawn. As everyone here knows, I do not know as much about breeding as others on here. I did have the opportunity to speak with Dawn in chat today though, and from that I got a better understanding of what she does with her furkids than I got from her website. I sincerely hope no one here would actually go out of their way to hurt someone because their website did not have all the info they would hope to see. Are there not breeders on this forum who do not even have websites to critique? This is just my take on things and not an attempt to anger anyone.


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## Pointgold

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=32279

Website or not, any breeder should be encouraging potential buyers to check references and to verify information before making a decision to purchase.

I do not have a website at this time (although a friend who is a webbuilder is still attempting to build one for me) and my reason is included in the above referenced post. I offer all clearances, either via links to the OFA database or hard copies, when an inquiry is made. If the buyer is a first time puppy buyer and doesn't know to ask, I use the opportunity to educate them as to what to look for when finding a breeder, whether it is me or someone else, and tell them about me clearances and how to check them, or that I will send them to them. I also encourage potential buyers to check references by contacting previous buyers, training clients, and fellow breeders. 
I would never purchase a puppy from a breeder that I did not know without doing the same thing, rather than just taking their word at face value. It's just common sense and good consumer practice. I feel strongly that just chatting with someone in a chat room is not doing due diligence - we all know (or should) that people in chats and on the internet may not necessarily be who or what they are presenting themselves to be. (*NOTE - I am _not _saying this is the case here, just speaking in general terms.)


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## embreeo

wungdawn said:


> I am the owner of Millstones Golden,
> 
> We currently show in UKC and periodically in AKC.
> As for OFA clearances, if you are doing them you would know that they don't get posted on their (OFA's) website until you get final numbers assigned to them.
> 
> You have no right to go saying how many dogs we have or that we're bad breeders. Did you ever wonder if that on our website ONLY championed dogs are posted? Or that we have older dogs who we are actually breeding? Before going and making up rumors, please ask first. You don't know who we are or what we are breeding, so dont say that we're breeding our 1 year old dogs!... p.s.. (ITS NOT TRUE)
> 
> I dont know how many, if any of you guys do test breedings, or watch your COI's??
> Or maybe you just dont know what that is..
> 
> We show our dogs at least twice a month, and have a highly respectable kennel!
> 
> I really doubt that any of you love this breed more than us, or do more than us to perfect this breed. So before making judgments, please take the time to find the answers first!
> 
> And if you're going to say stuff about us, say it too our face, and not around our backs!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dawn Wung
> www.millstonesgolden.com


Ok, Ok, I'll fess up. It was me who wrote the "negative note." HOWEVER, I do not believe it was negative, and it certainly was not intended to stir up trouble. What happened is this ... I was reading this thread and, like many of you, did some investigation of my own. I am NOT a breeder, but have owned goldens since the late 1970's. Through the years, I have learned what it means to buy a puppy from a truly "reputable" breeder. As many of you can attest, most reputable breeders will sell their puppies on a limited registration, or have a clause where registration can only be reversed IF and WHEN a dog has all its final clearances, or possibly co-ownership. Obviously this is done to protect the breeder's reputation and prevent problems such as this one. After reading the thread and investigating on my own, I wrote an email to the breeders from whom Ms. Wung purchased her dogs ... my intent was just to make them aware. I directed them to her website and this forum/thread so that they could investigate for themselves. It was a "For What It's Worth" email ... and it was sent anonymously. One of the breeders replied to my email, thanking me for letting her know. She said she forwarded my email to Ms. Wung and I think that's where the "negative note" thing comes into play. As some of you have said, why be so defensive if you have nothing to hide??? Furthermore, I have since confirmed that there has been more than one "Oops" litter. For someone who professes to have been a vet tech for 18 years (on her website), I find it hard to believe that she doesn't know better ... ONE, maybe ... but more than one??? And finally, in the above quoted post, she states that she has not bred a 1 yr. old dog - THAT IS A BLATANT LIE!!! The parents of her current litter are Stryker and Brooklyn - Stryker DOB: 6-11-07; Brooklyn DOB: 1-8-07 - DO THE MATH!! Obviously, I am not the only one who has drawn the same conclusion.


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## arcane

*Classified Ad #595099 - Golden Retriever Puppies For Sale*

​  [contact member]

[report bad ad]​ *Price*: *$940.00 USD* [buy now]
*Available*: 10
*Member*: wungdawn
*Joined*: Jul 31, 2005
*Ad Placed*: Jun 11, 2008
*Ad Expires*: Dec 27, 2008
*Location*: Oxford, Michigan
*Category*: Dogs & Puppies > Golden Retriever

Golden Retriever Puppies for sale. Dual Sired Litter, Parents are Ch.CPFLDS-Millstones Golden Brooklyn bred to Ch. Millstones Golden Stryker and Ch. Chiendors-Millstones Golden Earl.

All puppies will be DNA Tested, Vet Checked, Wormed, vaccinated, on heartworm preventive, micro chipped, litter pan trained.

Puppies should vary in color from Blonde to Light Gold, All parents are Conformation Champions and are just beautiful. If you have interest in this litter due to be whelped on or around July 17, 2008 with puppies ready to go to new homes around the end of Sept. Please visit our website at www.millstonesgolden.com to see pictures of parents.    
*More Ads From wungdawn*


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## arcane

i think the above speaks for itself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ljilly28

Golden Retriever Puppies for sale. Dual Sired Litter, Parents are Ch.CPFLDS-Millstones Golden Brooklyn bred to Ch. Millstones Golden Stryker and Ch. Chiendors-Millstones Golden Earl.

Does "dual sired" mean what I think it does? I have never heard of that.


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## Debles

Means you take your chances? 
Weirdest brand of breeder I've ever seen.


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## PeanutsMom

embreeo said:


> Ok, Ok, I'll fess up. It was me who wrote the "negative note." HOWEVER, I do not believe it was negative, and it certainly was not intended to stir up trouble. What happened is this ... I was reading this thread and, like many of you, did some investigation of my own. I am NOT a breeder, but have owned goldens since the late 1970's. Through the years, I have learned what it means to buy a puppy from a truly "reputable" breeder. As many of you can attest, most reputable breeders will sell their puppies on a limited registration, or have a clause where registration can only be reversed IF and WHEN a dog has all its final clearances, or possibly co-ownership. Obviously this is done to protect the breeder's reputation and prevent problems such as this one. After reading the thread and investigating on my own, I wrote an email to the breeders from whom Ms. Wung purchased her dogs ... my intent was just to make them aware. I directed them to her website and this forum/thread so that they could investigate for themselves. It was a "For What It's Worth" email ... and it was sent anonymously. One of the breeders replied to my email, thanking me for letting her know. She said she forwarded my email to Ms. Wung and I think that's where the "negative note" thing comes into play. As some of you have said, why be so defensive if you have nothing to hide??? Furthermore, I have since confirmed that there has been more than one "Oops" litter. For someone who professes to have been a vet tech for 18 years (on her website), I find it hard to believe that she doesn't know better ... ONE, maybe ... but more than one??? And finally, in the above quoted post, she states that she has not bred a 1 yr. old dog - THAT IS A BLATANT LIE!!! The parents of her current litter are Stryker and Brooklyn - Stryker DOB: 6-11-07; Brooklyn DOB: 1-8-07 - DO THE MATH!! Obviously, I am not the only one who has drawn the same conclusion.


I don't have anything against anyone and don't know Mrs. Wung, other than from my brief conversation with her. I just have seen over and over how a question of whether or not anyones used such and such breeder turns into a full blown investigation, after the investigation everyone posts all their findings and what they think is wrong with the breeder, and then the breeder joins the forum and most of the time is able to explain the things everyone thought were so awful about them. It just seems odd that the people asking about breeders very rarely get told anything positive, when it is positive it's that a breeder on this site knows that person and they're great. Could each and every one of the breeders we all like stand up to such scrutiny? I am really really not insinuating you guys (all the breeders here) are bad. I can see Heathers love for her puppies in every post she makes clearly, and others too. It just seems like this forum releases "the bloodhounds" on people. lol, I guess that is a good thing since so many people are unaware of clearances and such. I just would hate to be on the other end of everyones google searches if I was in the situation. A simple "I would not recommend" and a link to the what to look for when buying a puppy thread would probably suffice. Like I said, this is just my point of view.


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## PeanutsMom

Ljilly28 said:


> Golden Retriever Puppies for sale. Dual Sired Litter, Parents are Ch.CPFLDS-Millstones Golden Brooklyn bred to Ch. Millstones Golden Stryker and Ch. Chiendors-Millstones Golden Earl.
> 
> Does "dual sired" mean what I think it does? I have never heard of that.


I've never heard of dual sired either. Does that mean two studs were with the **** and puppies could be from either one?


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## Pointgold

I've seen, and made, plenty of "positive" replies to requests for breeder info here. It's not a surprise that there are "negative" responses to so many of them here, when it takes so little to verify when claims made are not true. And there are SO many "breeders" out there "talking the talk" but not "walking the walk". 
Those of us who care so passionately about this breed do not care to see money made off the backs of dogs that sadly often produce sick and crippled offspring, causing heartbreak for the unsuspecting/uneducated general puppy buying public. Not to mention the pain and suffering of the dogs. 
If someone comes to this forum and makes an inquiry, and the answers do not happen to be positve, that could save them from having to go through that.


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## Pointgold

Dual sired litters are generally carefully planned breedings, and usually done with a bitch on a breeding that is to be her last, and would be unable to be bred to one sire for one desired litter, and then again to another for an also desireable breeding, or, perhaps one of the dogs is only available once, is being exported, or neutered, etc. In some breeds, dual sired litters are done in order to diversify the breeding program without having a bitch subjected to multiple whelps. 
When the pups are born, each are DNA tested to determine which dog sired it, and they are then registered accordingly. 
"Accidental" breedings can also be DNA tested to determine who sired them - if any possible sires are on the premises.


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## PeanutsMom

Pointgold said:


> I've seen, and made, plenty of "positive" replies to requests for breeder info here. It's not a surprise that there are "negative" responses to so many of them here, when it takes so little to verify when claims made are not true. And there are SO many "breeders" out there t"alking the talk" but not "walking the walk".
> Those of us who care so passionately about this breed do not care to see money made off the backs of dogs that sadly often produce sick and crippled offspring, causing heartbreak for the unsuspecting/uneducated general puppy buying public. Not to mention the pain and suffering of the dogs.
> If someone comes to this forum and makes an inquiry, and the answers do not happen to be positve, that could save them from having to go through that.


NONE here wants to see dogs treated like that. We all love the breed and that is why were here. I just can see how difficult it would be to the one under such scrutiny. That's all. And I'm not just talking about you personally. I have searched and checked OFA following these posts too, I just don't have the connections to go hitting up the people they buy their dogs from or calling up other breeders to talk about them, nor would I want to unless I knew for certain they were not treating their dogs right. I do not breed or show but I have run across a busy country road in a unfamiliar area, through a field to try to pick up puppy that had just ran out in front of my vehicle. Granted, I couldn't catch it but I did turn around and let the cocker spaniel breeders (a sign was in their front yard) about a mile back the other way know where a potential puppy of theirs was. Noone can ever question my passion for animals. I said my opinion, and I'm not irritated by anyone else's opinions, we all have them. It's time to relax after a long day now. Your pup's are beautiful BTW.


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## Pointgold

I called no one, Shelly. I simply posted an inquiry to another list, which is geared completely towards working and showing Goldens. 

It simply said:

Breeder Reference

Anyone who can provide references for Millstone Golden Retrievers in Michigan, please reply privately.


That was it. I quickly got several replies, all from people who had dealings with Ms. Wung. A few were from people that I did not know, but who had similar information as the breeders that I do know that replied.

This is done regularly, and there is nothing untoward about it, it does not have anything to do with "connections", nor does it in any way suggest that I felt that they were treating their dogs badly.

All persons advertising dogs for sale should absolutely expect that they have opened themselves to "scrutiny", reference checking, and validation of claims.


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## Ardeagold

As requested by Ms Wung in an earlier post...to help out....I'm only getting into this discussion to make suggestions to Ms Wung about her website, which may help in the future.

1) On the puppy page, have photos of the parents with links to their own pages. 

2) If you don't want to publicize OFA prelims through OFA, then make copies of the OFA paperwork and link them on the pertinent dog's pages until you get the final clearances. Then I'd suggest having them available for public viewing on OFA and linked on each dog's page. The CHIC designation should be available too (perhaps made into a link?). It's an easy way to research the results of all tests for that dog.

3) Note any and all dog/breed clubs you're a member of...with links. (For example the GRCA or your regional GR club....or your local Kennel club).

4) When a viewer gets to each dog's page....clarify that he/she is a UKC CH....and/or is pointed in one *club* or the other. Many people wouldn't know that the CH is from the UKC versus the AKC......and it's good to let people know you're showing in both venues. So listing any and all *wins* in either club is a positive thing. 

5) If you have other Goldens/any breed who are NOT being shown....have them on a "Family" page or something. I noticed you do have a page of photos of some of your dogs, but there aren't any specifics about who's who. 

IF the dog has been bred....even if currently altered....showing him/her on his/her own page with all of the above info linked, and pics, is also good. (For example.....your neutered male who was the sire of a litter).

6) Questionnaire for interested puppy buyers.

These are just a few things I look for on a Breeder's page. Some have more info (like a copy of their contract), some have it set up differently than I would, but the necessary information to research and then make an educated "contact" with the breeder is there.

Most breeders want as much info as possible on the website, as that, in itself, often weeds out those who are serious from those who aren't. It's always better to have someone as a puppy buyer to be asking all of the right questions, because if they are, and you can provide the answers, honestly and openly, you'll have someone who has at the barest minimum shown you that they're thorough and they CARE about their "future" puppy. It's not an "impulse" puppy......they're planning, preparing, and researching. All which is very good for the puppies you've bred, raised and cared lovingly for.

I don't breed Goldens.....but I *might* breed Newfs. (Or maybe not....still can't decide). I will probably have a stud male...if all goes as we hope.

Anyway....on our Newfs pages on our FAMILY site (not a breeder's site), I have their OFA pages linked. I have their pedigrees linked. If I was to breed or use my young male for stud in the future, I'd have everything I mentioned to you linked....it just makes sense, to me.


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