# Would you get a pup with a heart murmur grade 2/6?



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I would have to age what she are the pups? I'd they are 10 weeks or younger maybe. Murmurs can present at 8, 10 12 weeks and can/ should be gone at 16 weeks. So it's impossible to tell if it's something to monitor and worry or not. You won't know till roughly 16 weeks of age. 

Personally, if you're breeder has 2 or 3 litters a year, I would likely wait till the next litter. My 2 pups from my breeder 2005 and 2017 both had a faint murmur on initial exam 8-9 weeks old and nothing by 16 weeks, and that's actually fairly normal. They were so faint they didn't even grade them. Just wait and see at 16 weeks of age. Yours you say is a grade 2 so not sure if be comfortable with that myself

You said he does all clearances, I guess my decision may be swayed if the dogs behind the parents had no history of SAS then you may feel confident there shouldn't be an issue and these are harmless and should go away.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I too would have questions re the age-
an echo isn't really valuable until puppy is 16 weeks or older. 
While 1/6 does usually go away, I don't trust a practitioner's grade for murmurs preferring a cardiologist to grade them. If they are cardio graded a 2/6, that might not go away. 
And something is causing it, the pressure gradient isn't off without some structural reason.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Unless that puppy is free (and even then), no way.


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

OP here. The pups were tested at 8 weeks. By a cardiologist and sonogrammed. The cardio AND the vet both said, given the pups parental history and non involvement with any heart valves, that they expected them to disappear with age. However, we all know expect and what happens are 2 different things.

The vet wasn't too concerned. He did say though that age 16-24 weeks should tell the real story. 

I'm wondering tho, if we did do 1 of these pups, and the murmur stays, what can we expect for quality of life? There are no meds for it. Does this mean most defiantly heart disease at a young age?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

tuckerkeys said:


> OP here. The pups were tested at 8 weeks. By a cardiologist and sonogrammed. The cardio AND the vet both said, given the pups parental history and non involvement with any heart valves, that they expected them to disappear with age. However, we all know expect and what happens are 2 different things.
> 
> The vet wasn't too concerned. He did say though that age 16-24 weeks should tell the real story.
> 
> I'm wondering tho, if we did do 1 of these pups, and the murmur stays, what can we expect for quality of life? There are no meds for it. Does this mean most defiantly heart disease at a young age?


If the parents are clear and a cardiologist said he expects the murmur to clear I would feel your odds are 75/25 in the pups favor. If it doesn't clear, you could be looking at SAS which can take a dog as early as 3-4 years of age. It really depends on the severity it becomes and how quickly it develops. If it stayed 2/6 that pup could live 8+years but he would probably be put on restricted activity. Meaning he/she wouldn't be a dog that could just run free and as hard as he wanted to. they wouldn't be no activity but he'd likely never be an athlete.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

the problem is, we don't know what genetics plays into SAS. A dog can have heart clearances behind him for generations and still have SAS. There is some recent consideration that the SAS gene(s) are wide-spread and we have been breeding for modifiers that suppress expression... which just puts us back at don't know...none of this is simple recessive vs dominant, there are modifiers, incomplete penetrance, all kinds of players here. 

The pressures seen on echo would be the telling piece. SAS can actually kill way earlier than 2YO- but there is medication (beta blockers) that is usually prescribed for SAS dogs. It's great that the cardiologist and the vet feel the murmur will go away... I would personally go back through OFA for sire and dam and their back 3 generations and expect to see a cardiologist clearance for each animal. Cardiologist clearances end w C-VPI, C-PI, or C-NOPI. If the "C" isn't there, it wasn't a cardiologist so not sufficient. 
Know too that only recently have echos become the gold standard for OFA heart exams- I would go so far to say that if one sees an echo clearance on an animal 10 years ago or so, it was usually done because the dog would not pass auscultation. Maybe even 5 years ago. Now tides are turning to more complete exams but that wasn't the case in years past and I've heard many many bitch owners decline a dog who's got an echo clearance (not now but then) due to fear there was a problem indicated.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Let me start off by saying I'm a rescue sort of person. 
I would never plan on this dog having a career in agility or obedience, hunting or anything that requires heavy exercise. 

But if (and this is a big if) the breeder is willing to price accordingly... and I mean really low. I would be happy to enjoy this pup for as long as time allows. It will require yearly exams with the cardio and reasonable, restrained exercise for life.

Think about the breeders options. She can't breed the pups so unless she finds them a good homes and requires they be fixed, what else can she do beside enjoy their company? That's not in the best interest of the pups or breeder. This would be an expense most breeders wouldn't do. Besides, even good breeders are limited on kennel space so this leaves the option to put the pups down.

So who knows... ask the breeder if she is willing to "rehome" vs sell these pups. You never know if you don't ask. Sometimes discount pups are the best!


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

breeder says 10% off of 2500. he will keep them till 16 weeks if need be and re test b/c he's pretty confident the murmurs are going to go away


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm not sure if I'd wait and retest or not. That's still $2250 for a puppy that has a potentially serious heart risk. 

The problem with that is you'll miss A LOT of time bonding and shaping that pups personality a bit and I would have a hard time not keeping the pup once I've had the pup for a we let alone 2 months.

My choice would be based on what ifs. What if the pup does have a heart issue. Would you want to keep it at that point and if so would the breeder refund your purchase price to at least help with future health care costs including pet insurance. That's another issue,preexisting conditions are exempt from pet insurance. So if your answer is you'd want to keep the puppy anyway, you'd want him now, get the insurance and not have him tested until after the grace period of the insurance passed (30 to 60 days I believe depending on which insurance).

For me, there's a lot of senarios to considering.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

At least they are being open and honest. Shortly after getting my last golden my breeder was president of the GR club in Dallas and was part of a heart/eye clinic and it was discovered my newly purchased dog (she was just short of 1 yr) had a heart murmur. It's been almost 10 yrs ago and don't remember the grade but it wasn't going away. Even though the breeder was present at the time he didn't want her returned or willing to give a bigger discount. I had paid $800. (1/2 price at this time) This precious girl died 4 yrs later from kidney failure. As it turned out this ran in the lines but no one knew at the time. At least you know what to watch for 

It's easy to say what I would do but you have to live with the decision you make. LOL as a rescue person I think these pups deserve a good home where they can be happy for whatever life they have. Could be this isn't an issue and 10 yrs from now going strong. All kids and pups deserve to be loved and enjoyed, not viewed as property.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

My Chance had a heart murmur which was noted by the cardiologist at 8 weeks that it was likely an innocent murmur - would disappear by 6 months old. When we had him checked at 6 months, it was still there and it was bad. Diagnosis: mitral valve dysplasia (not SAS) and the only solution was open-heart surgery at CSU-VTH. At 9 months old, Chance had the surgery and is now one month shy of 14 years old. You just never know. Today that same surgery is not being done in the U.S. - only Japan and France and, in very exceptional cases, England.

This is a terribly difficult decision but I would do it all again - including traveling to Japan if necessary. Know that my thoughts and prayers are with you.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

tuckerkeys said:


> breeder says 10% off of 2500. he will keep them till 16 weeks if need be and re test b/c he's pretty confident the murmurs are going to go away



The problem I see here is that it might not be gone at 16 weeks. My pup had a very faint grade 1 innocent murmur at 8 weeks, and the vet said it would almost certainly go away. But that it would likely take until 6 months old. And it did take until then. She still had it at five months old - she did not have it at six months old. She went on to pass her heart clearance by a cardiologist.


And yeah, you would miss some of the best weeks of raising a puppy. Those first few baby weeks.. they are tons of work, but I wouldn't want to miss them.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

FWIW I agree with Sweet Girl... I don't feel 10% is much of a discount and waiting until 16 weeks is certainly not in the best interest of the puppies. If it's more important to the breeder to make the standard fee than find these pups a willing and acceptable home that's really disappointing.
Those 1st 16 weeks are very important. Getting a pup started on training and adapting to your family and home is so much easier at 8 weeks. Limited personal attention in those 1st few months makes bonding harder. It's doable for sure but it does delay the process.... 

I have to wonder what his plans are if the condition hasn't improved :-(


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## Red Dogs (Jul 11, 2013)

Just thought I would chime in here because I went through this. My little girl Stella was just like the pup you explained in your post, unfortunately her heart murmur never went away just got worse. IMHO if you know this ahead of time I wouldn't do it. Stella was a beautiful golden, she was was very first dog as I was never allowed to have any pets growing up so once my boys were all grown I got her. I was devastated she passed at 5 months from SAS she was passing out because of the blockage in her heart and this was gut wrenching... but she came to me for a reason. She taught me how to potty train a puppy, teach commands, deal with the mouthing issues I learned tons from her so when Tessa came to me it was a piece of cake (well almost). So please rethink this situation if I was to do it again and I knew about the murmur, I personally would pass on that litter.
I wish you all the best with your decision.

RIP Stella Oct 15, 2005 - Mar 16, 2006
I think of her everyday.


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## Red Dogs (Jul 11, 2013)

I should just follow up and tell you I never knew Stella had a murmur till her first vet visit with me, the vet said it was innocent and would probably go away. Well at each vet visit is just got worse and that's when we received the confirmation from the ultrasound.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I have dealt with heart problems with dogs in the past. I have done a lot of reading about SAS and heart murmurs. Owning a dog with a heart problem simply means watching for signs of over exertion and visiting a cardiologist every couple of years for the more mild cases. Cardiologist visits are pretty expensive. More severe require a special diet and heart meds. Diet was expensive, meds weren’t. 

With mild cases, they can still run and play and do dog sports within their threshold. You have to be willing to pay attention and stop when it becomes too much. 

It’s just very hard to know until the puppy is older.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I offer an alternate view 


One of my Towhee's pups from her first litter had a 'significant' murmur upon her puppy wellness check. Significant enough that a special and knowledgeable home was found and she was placed where she could get the care and medical attention she would need.


She went to her cardiologist regularly but it was a watch & wait situation with no meds required but activity & nutrition were addressed (owner had a significant murmur herself).


Most checkups showed her murmur not progressing until around her 18 month check up (I think it was her 18 month checkup at least) -- which found no signs of the murmur. Repeated checkups have also shown no signs.


So you just never know -- who knew a murmur still in evidence at a year would resolve? But I do need to repeat, in Towhee's puppy's situation, the puppy was placed and the new owner knew the risks going in.


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