# serious problems, advice please!



## ashleygrimaldi (Sep 6, 2011)

ok our puppy finn is almost five months old. we've had him for about three months. he's been very very good lately, no issues whatsoever, BUT he is terrified of my husband.

we've already spoken about this and it's not really an issue anymore, but my husband was punishing finn physically. he never actually hurt him, but he scared him quite a lot. we haven't been married long and we have very different ideas of how dogs should be trained because we've owned different breeds in the past. he's had great danes and pitbulls, i've had yorkies. i'd never dream of hitting a dog but that's how all of his in the past were raised so he thought this was ok. i've since explained to him WHY we cannot train finn this way, but i think the damage has already been done.

when finn does something bad, like pee on the floor, my husband grabs him, sticks his face in it, and spanks him once or twice on his butt. when he tries to get away, he holds him there by his collar. finn doesn't respond well to this method and he stays fearful of my husband for a day or two afterward, he doesn't want to go near him, and he won't even come out of his crate when he calls him, and sometimes he pees in his crate when my husband tries to get him out.

he doesn't even hit him hard at all, it can't possibly cause more pain than how people used to hit dogs with newspapers. i think finn just isn't responding to it well at all, i think he's just more sensitive than the previous dogs my husband has owned.

usually they're fine and they get along well, my husband plays with him constantly and he's very excited to see him when he gets home. it's really just after he's been punished, which really isn't very often at all now that he's basically housebroken.

last night we came home and finn had pooped out the side of his crate? i think he must have had a tummy ache or something, we were only gone for about two hours and he had been let out immediately before we left, and he's never done anything like this. he seemed nervous when we came in so i know he knew he'd done something bad, and when my husband called him out of his crate he started peeing. my husband tried to pull him out by his collar, more pee. all over the floor. my husband punished him as per usual.

i honestly would not describe him as abusive. he's not a physically violent person whatsoever, he just doesn't seem to understand that not all dogs will respond to a punishment the same. now today he came home and finn refuses to come out of his crate. he comes out for me just fine, so i know it's just my husband he's scared of. my husband tried to let him out and again he peed.

i'm sorry this post is all over the place but i've never had this issue with a dog before. i feel like we're lucky he's not getting aggressive with us but i need to figure out how to repair their relationship. i know in a couple days he'll be fine again but i don't want to go through this every time he has an accident, he's still a baby after all.

what can my husband do now so finn isn't scared anymore? i've already explained to him the proper way to punish him in the event he needs discipline, and now after how he's acting today he finally sees how his methods are damaging this dog. i just don't know what he can do to make it better now, he can't let him out now because he pees from fear every time he goes near his crate. :\

i know there's no quick fix and it's going to take time before he doesn't respond this way at all, but i'm leaving in a few days to go to florida. until then i think i'm just going to let him out of his crate all the time to give him some time to get over the trauma but once i leave my husband is obviously going to have to take care of him himself.



just a note: there's no reason to fear for finn's safety. i understand the tone of this post and how it would come off to strangers, i'm not making excuses for my husband's behavior, but i don't want you all to think this puppy is being abused. my husband loves him, he's just been misguided on training methods and now that he sees what he's doing and i've shown him several resources regarding WHY you don't hit dogs and what happens to them when you do, he's promised to adopt my method instead. my husband is a good guy, this post paints an entirely different picture of him than how he is in real life. i need help but i can't post this without a disclaimer because it's unfair to him and his character to have people online think he is an animal abuser. thank you SO MUCH for any and all advice you have to offer.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Finn is responding this way because your husband hits him. Hitting a dog is simply poor training. It might not have been considered abuse ten years ago, but in modern, ethical training, striking a dog is pretty much considered abuse, and the behavior you describe your husband engaging in, whether you like the terms or not, is abusive. It's also ineffective from a training standpoint.

So now you have a dog that is absolutely terrified of your husband because, as far as he knows, your husband will explode at random with an angry voice and then hit him. In this kind of situation some dogs will urinate in order to appease the angry person. Hitting him, dragging him around, and/or shoving his face in it will simply teach him to pee more easily and with more quantity. "Punishing" Finn for peeing in terror or excitement will simply teach him to do it again. Hitting him will make it worse (as you've already seen). The fact that as recently as last night your husband held him by the collar and struck him is not encouraging. Your husband _cannot hit this dog ever again_ or you may end up with a fearful or even aggressive young dog. If Finn pees out of excitement or fear, calmness is the thing that will cure the issue, not punishment.

Your husband needs to 100% stop "punishing" Finn with any intimidating behavior. That includes, yelling, low voices, angry voices, grabbing him, dragging him, hitting him, and even sudden movements toward him. You are describing a _terrified_ dog. Your husband needs to behave calmly around Finn, and he needs to reward him with mellow praise and treats when Finn does what is desired. When Finn does something your husband doesn't like, your husband needs to withhold reinforcement (no praise, no pets, no food). He cannot (and I cannot stress this hard enough) "punish" Finn in the ways he's used to.

This may be very difficult for your husband to learn, but if he doesn't step up quickly, you're going to have a dog who spends his life in fear of his master, and that's a sad, sad thing.


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## ashleygrimaldi (Sep 6, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Finn is responding this way because your husband hits him. Hitting a dog is simply poor training. It might not have been considered abuse ten years ago, but in modern, ethical training, striking a dog is pretty much considered abuse, and the behavior you describe your husband engaging in, whether you like the terms or not, is abusive. It's also ineffective from a training standpoint.
> 
> So now you have a dog that is absolutely terrified of your husband because, as far as he knows, your husband will explode at random with an angry voice and then hit him. In this kind of situation some dogs will urinate in order to appease the angry person. Hitting him, dragging him around, and/or shoving his face in it will simply teach him to pee more easily and with more quantity. *"Punishing" Finn for peeing in terror or excitement will simply teach him to do it again.* Hitting him will make it worse (as you've already seen). The fact that as recently as last night your husband held him by the collar and struck him is not encouraging. Your husband _cannot hit this dog ever again_ or you may end up with a fearful or even aggressive young dog. If Finn pees out of excitement or fear, calmness is the thing that will cure the issue, not punishment.
> 
> ...


understood on all counts, i've read your replies to my previous posts and i will be showing them to my husband. to the bolded though, i'd like to clarify we've never punished him for peeing out of excitement or fear. the only time he's ever been punished for accidents are the accidents he's had during his training. my husband knows he only pees out of submissiveness and he knows that punishing him for it will only make the behavior worse.

other than changing his discipline methods, what can he do to regain finn's trust?


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

Puppies have a second fear period (after the first one is over) and it sounds as though Finn may be imprinted with fear. This will take time and patience to overcome.

Your hubby may have to lure Finn with a very high value treat (maybe a nice piece of chicken, etc.) and praise him lavishly for coming and taking the treat. Do not touch Finn yet. After Finn comes without hesitation let your hubby gently touch him when he comes over. Patience, patience, patience! If indeed Finn has been imprinted with the fear response he will not trust your husband for quite a while.

There's an old saying....."One uh-oh can undo 10 atta-boys". Finn will never respond to rough treatment; but hopefully the bond can be rebuilt.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

ashleygrimaldi said:


> understood on all counts, i've read your replies to my previous posts and i will be showing them to my husband. to the bolded though, i'd like to clarify we've never punished him for peeing out of excitement or fear. the only time he's ever been punished for accidents are the accidents he's had during his training. my husband knows he only pees out of submissiveness and he knows that punishing him for it will only make the behavior worse.
> 
> *other than changing his discipline methods, what can he do to regain finn's trust?*


Honestly, nothing. If your husband continues to abuse Finn, Finn will continue to be terrified of him. He NEEDS to change his views on training. You need to worry about turning Finn into a fear reactive dog.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

You should find some dog training classes near you. No dog no matter the breed needs to have this done to them. I have owned Americam Pit Bull Terriers for 9yrs and I have never had the need to hit them or alpha roll them to get them do what I want. Positive training ou get you alot further and you will have a well adjusted dog.


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## ashleygrimaldi (Sep 6, 2011)

nixietink said:


> Honestly, nothing. If your husband continues to abuse Finn, Finn will continue to be terrified of him. He NEEDS to change his views on training. You need to worry about turning Finn into a fear reactive dog.


oh, maybe that wasn't worded clearly. i didn't mean other than changing his discipline methods as in he's refusing to, i meant in addition to. we've had a long discussion about this and it's unfortunate and regretful that it took it coming to this for him to see the error in his ways, but he finally gets it and he's 100% committed to treating this dog differently. i'm asking what he can do proactively to make finn more comfortable around him in the meantime.

it's not like he lives in constant fear, usually they play and he can't wait to see him when he comes home, he's attached to him constantly while he's out of his crate. he's the one he follows around the house and he chooses to sit on his lap for car rides, etc. he's always been very obedient and trusting, and i think that's why my husband argued with me for so long over his training. today is the first time he's finally been willing to step back and admit that his training may not be ideal.

i'd like to reiterate that while my husband's training methods are considered abuse (and i have told him that myself), he's just going by what he's done and has worked with previous dogs. also, we're very young people. we're 22 and 23, finn is the first dog we've owned together or even separately. the dogs we've both had before would more be considered family pets, and my husband learned his training methods from his parents. i'm not arguing whatsoever that his training methods are too harsh and are not working, but i need to defend him as a person and say that he is not the kind of person who would ever intentionally hurt an animal. he has never hit finn because he's mad at him, he thought he was doing the right thing because it's worked on dogs he's had in the past. after last night/today he feels terrible and he just wants our dog to feel comfortable with him and know he's sorry.


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## Casey and Samson's Mom (Sep 24, 2011)

Gosh, I am not really sure that I should wade in here. Goldens are "mushy" dogs by and large. They want to be with and near their people in positive ways. This is not happening for Finn and he is rightly confused and fearful. Depending on his temperment, this could turn out bad or very bad. Your husband needs to stop frightening him now. Finn needs a lot of positives and rewards for the things he is doing to please you. Would your husband consider attending classes with you and Finn where positive training methods are explained and modeled?


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

ashleygrimaldi said:


> i'd like to reiterate that while my husband's training methods are considered abuse (and i have told him that myself), he's just going by what he's done and has worked with previous dogs.


I doubt very much that it worked with previous dogs. It's just that he's never had the chance to see a dog raised with patience and positive training methods. Believe it or not, but Danes and Pits are two of the most sensitive dog breeds toward their owners. I had Danes for over 20 years and I can't imagine hitting them. They would have shut down. Maybe shutting down was your husband's family's definition of what "works".


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## ashleygrimaldi (Sep 6, 2011)

Casey and Samson's Mom said:


> Gosh, I am not really sure that I should wade in here. Goldens are "mushy" dogs by and large. They want to be with and near their people in positive ways. This is not happening for Finn and he is rightly confused and fearful. Depending on his temperment, this could turn out bad or very bad. Your husband needs to stop frightening him now. Finn needs a lot of positives and rewards for the things he is doing to please you. Would your husband consider attending classes with you and Finn where positive training methods are explained and modeled?


i'm sure he'd be willing, but i'm not sure that's really an option for us. my husband is in the military and he's gone for over twelve hours most days, and our weekends are so busy with everything he can't get done during the week that i'm not sure we can fully commit to that. and i don't have a vehicle of my own yet because we haven't lived here long, i really can't even get anywhere to attend classes.


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## ashleygrimaldi (Sep 6, 2011)

kwhit said:


> I doubt very much that it worked with previous dogs. It's just that he's never had the chance to see a dog raised with patience and positive training methods. Believe it or not, but Danes and Pits are two of the most sensitive dog breeds toward their owners. I had Danes for over 20 years and I can't imagine hitting them. They would have shut down. Maybe shutting down was your husband's family's definition of what "works".


it could be. i admit that i myself can't imagine ANY dog responding well to being hit as punishment, but i've had rescue dogs who have been abused already. i've seen what the treatment does first hand, my husband never has.

btw, i wasn't trying to infer that danes and pits do respond well to that kind of training, i was just saying my husband has had big dogs and that's why he's always thought that training is appropriate. having had yorkies myself, i'd never dream of using physical discipline on a dog so fragile.

i really wish i had known this is how he thought you're supposed to train dogs, i would have tried to correct it before we got him. i feel so guilty over this, i love my dog so much and it's actually making me feel physically pained to see him react this way.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

ashleygrimaldi said:


> having had yorkies myself, i'd never dream of using physical discipline on a dog so fragile.


I think a Yorkie would be more apt to "say" screw you to someone who hit them than either a Dane or a Pit. I guess I just don't think of Yorkies as being fragile...at least not in their attitudes or demeanor. But I know you mean physically.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

I was also raised with the severe discipline your husband also experienced, our animals (dogs) were taught with the hand and not the mouth, as were us kids. Today's methods are a complete turn-a-round in that positive reinforcement has proven to be the best way that dogs respond. This takes lots of patience and repetition. Any person who doesn't have the patience for training and willing to repeat themselves over and over and over needs to rethink their position on being a dog owner. Can your husband commit to this? If so, you say he's in the military? Then I would think that he would have the discipline to change his methods and do what he was taught, patience and repetition. 

You have the advantage that your puppy has had positive reinforcement from you and with lots of love and consistent positive training from your husband, your golden will show that unconditional love that is their strong suit and will respond quickly to that.


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## SandyK (Mar 20, 2011)

I am so sorry to read this about Finn and your husband. I have to agree with everyone else and say your hubby needs to change his ways...it is hurting Finn. Poor thing urinates in the crate because he is scared. Your husband must stop pulling him out. I would suggest he talk nicely to Finn before even getting close to his kennel, then give him a treat before opening door, then open door and don't lean down into Finn's face then say in a happy voice let's go outside and go directly to door you let him out. You might have an accident now and then as Finn readjusts to not be fearful. Your husband must remain calm. I would suggest only you let him out, but if you are going away, Finn needs to get used to your husband letting him out, so this is my suggestion for you. Good luck and I hope everything works out for all of you!!:crossfing


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The peeing, by the way, can be brought on by excitement as much as by intimidation, so the fact that Finn loves your husband and loves to play with him is contributing to the problem. Add to that the fact that your husband has been hitting him sometimes, and you have a dog who's probably wound pretty tight.

In all the situations that Finn currently pees inappropriately, you have to try to head the situation off before it starts. Every time he repeats the behavior, he ingrains it more deeply and is more likely to do it in the future. Try to avoid the situations you can and to take all the excitement and intimidation out of the situations you can't avoid.

If you're afraid he's about to pee, avoid talking to him, making eye contact, moving quickly, playing, and even praising. Ignore him until the danger is passed.

As far as improving your husband's relationship with Finn and lowering the chances that Finn will develop lifelong fear behaviors, he needs to spend a few minutes every day working on it. I'd recommend 5-10 minutes, 3-4 times a day in which your husband teaches Finn that he's a fair, calm, generous guy. No tussling, no grabbing or pushing Finn (even for fun), and no winding Finn up. And obviously no punishment. They can have crazy play sessions again some day when the fear problems are taken care of, but your husband should avoid them for now. In order to show Finn this new relationship, your husband should take a large handful of small, soft treats, and spend 5-10 minutes giving them to Finn as a reward for easy, calm behaviors Finn already knows (like come, sit, down, paw, etc.). He's taught Finn that he's a violent and capricious person; now he needs to teach Finn that he's calm and the source of good things.

Honestly, it may be too late on some of these behaviors. After the first and second fear periods, some behaviors get ingrained very deeply and are difficult to change. It's certainly worth trying, but be aware that your husband may have done some lasting damage, and be prepared for the consequences.

I cannot stress enough that your husband must 100% abandon his ideas of punishment. Any angry or loud voice will be enough to trigger a fear reaction, since Finn has learned to associate it with violence. Most Goldens can hold up just fine to some yelling or rough handling, but your husband has to understand that this dog can no longer be trained through intimidation whatsoever. Even a small amount of intimidation (saying "no" angrily once in a while) will be enough to perpetuate the problem.

This dog is desperate to please. Ignoring (preventing reinforcement for) undesired behavior will be enough to get rid of it as long as you're continually rewarding alternative, desired behaviors.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

ashleygrimaldi said:


> other than changing his discipline methods, what can he do to regain finn's trust?


Nothing. He doesn't deserve Finn's trust when he trains with a hand that is so heavy his own dog fears him. Get your husband to work with a CPDT-KA certified trainer for 3 lessons, so it is coming from a neutral party rather than you(?).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Nothing. He doesn't deserve Finn's trust when he trains with a hand that is so heavy his own dog fears him. Get your husband to work with a CPDT-KA certified trainer for 3 lessons, so it is coming from a neutral party rather than you(?).


This is truer and a better idea than anything I wrote. If he wants a lifelong bond with a true-hearted dog, he can carve out some time for a few lessons.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Honestly I think your husband needs to back off and not be responsible for ANY degree of the dog's care. That means, you are 100% the one taking care of Finn. If Finn has an accident, it's you that let him out, you that cleans it up, you that takes him outside, etc. The husband needs to act like a wallflower and do nothing. 
It's more than "how he raised his other dogs" and "how he was taught." It's a bad temper. You are not going to change that by reading a few posts on the internet. If he's been so consistent with terrifying the puppy to the point that a GOLDEN RETRIEVER is mortified by him, it's time for the husband to be out of the picture for the dog's care. 
Give the dog a few weeks off from him and then re-introduce the husband to him in very benign ways. Petting while sitting down. Hand-feeding his dinner, asking him to do training tasks for his kibble (sit, down, stand). That's it. No putting him in or taking him out of the crate, no dealing with his walks, etc. That is YOUR job now because husband has proven himself completely unreliable to do that.
Honestly it is not the hitting itself that did it. I'm not condoning hitting a dog but don't think that was the magic thing that made the dog afraid. It's your husband's explosive and domineering behavior toward the dog. Even if he were to never lay a hand on the dog, his behavior would be just as frightening. This needs to stop and the only way to do this is if he is absolved of all dog-caring duties.
Another thing, you say he likes to play and wrestle with the puppy. I can read between the lines that he probably likes to play rough, really get the puppy riled up, physically pushing the puppy, really rough horseplay. This too is inappropriate, and I think it's a common thing with men. I see this as contributing to the poor relationship between dog and husband, because it's one more demonstration of rough, over-the-top excited interactions between the two of them. The dog thinks that any interaction with your husband is one of stress, either good or bad. Tone it down with the playing. 
Best of luck.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm glad your husband recognizes the error of his ways and wants to change. I would _definitely _follow tippykayak's advice to the T as well as all the other great advice here. You and your husband have an opportunity to raise a wonderful companion in Finn, but if your husband's behavior continues, you are going to end up with a fearful, possibly reactive dog. Good luck.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I just wanted to say that I get what you're trying to say about your husband. That he isn't mean, he just didn't know any better. I'm glad he's starting to realize that the old way is the wrong way.

Definitely get your husband to obedience class with Finn. It will help train your husband in the right way to handle Finn. Positive reinforcement only. When Finn has an accident, even from excitement, just clean it up and go on. No need to punish. Finn can't reason that he's being punished for peeing or pooping. 

I agree that your husband to step back from any kind of discipline right now. If Finn does anything, you should handle it. Let your husband be Finn's buddy for a while, nothing more. It will make Finn a better dog and your husband a better doggie dad.


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