# Litters per lifetime



## Golden293 (Dec 7, 2017)

In the scenario that you breed your female back to back, how many litters should she have before she is spayed?


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sorry it just isn't that simple.

Every female is unique. Their health, ancestry and physical strength decides how many litters one may have. There may be females that can have eight litters. Some others maybe three. Some others only one. Some may never have even a single litter.

This is an area where one size does not fit all.


----------



## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

I would say that three litters is what I am most comfortable with for a girl. But I did four with one girl and have heard of other very responsible breeders doing five. If you are getting into numbers higher than that you may be looking at a puppy mill type situation which would be good to avoid.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

They are all unique, yes. It's not so cut and dried. 
I typically breed them twice or maybe a third time, but I am going to breed my Kirby free girl a 4th time this year to get my 2nd keeper from her (if I can find an appropriate KF stud dog that is, I have been looking a long time and it's hard to find heads).... 
I think you have to look at the breeding program, see if the girls are titled and if good choices are made, not just see a hard and fast rule.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> They are all unique, yes. It's not so cut and dried.
> I typically breed them twice or maybe a third time, but I am going to breed my Kirby free girl a 4th time this year to get my 2nd keeper from her (if I can find an appropriate KF stud dog that is, I have been looking a long time and it's hard to find heads)....
> I think you have to look at the breeding program, see if the girls are titled and if good choices are made, not just see a hard and fast rule.


When you say "Kirby free", do you mean without Kirby (Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs - I'm too lazy to type all of his titles) in her pedigree? Not trying to hijack the thread, just curious.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

maegan0412 said:


> When you say "Kirby free", do you mean without Kirby (Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs - I'm too lazy to type all of his titles) in her pedigree? Not trying to hijack the thread, just curious.


yes.. do you know a fabulous dog whose headpiece is gorgeous and is multi-titled, as well as fully clearanced? It's a big order lol....


----------



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

OK - so I have to ask - are there a lot of dogs who have Kirby in them?


----------



## Golden293 (Dec 7, 2017)

Thanks everyone! It makes sense that it's not one size fits all, but I didn't know if there was an "accepted standard". 

Side note - I just looked up Kirby on K9 data. That must have been one happy stud dog  Good luck with your search!


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> yes.. do you know a fabulous dog whose headpiece is gorgeous and is multi-titled, as well as fully clearanced? It's a big order lol....


Can't think of any Kirby free studs that also meet the other criteria off the top of my head. The studs I know of all have Kirby at least twice in five generations. I have a pretty big crush on Mystic, but he's "Kirby three" in five generations.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

maegan0412 said:


> Can't think of any Kirby free studs that also meet the other criteria off the top of my head. The studs I know of all have Kirby at least twice in five generations. I have a pretty big crush on Mystic, but he's "Kirby three" in five generations.


And all my dogs but her have Kirby multiple times too- and I would like a boy from her (already have a girl) whose pedigree isn't overloaded or loaded at all with him- lovely dog, of course, but at least in my little world, I would like to imagine there will always be a dog available without kirby in the pedigree in the future.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

rabernet said:


> OK - so I have to ask - are there a lot of dogs who have Kirby in them?


Yes. Kirby is the #1 producer in breed history, and for good reason, but he is also a top contributor to COI's for a lot of dogs. Get on K9data and view his offspring. The list is a mile long. He was a fabulous, gorgeous, well-moving dog according to people that actually knew him when he was alive.


----------



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

maegan0412 said:


> Yes. Kirby is the #1 producer in breed history, and for good reason, but he is also a top contributor to COI's for a lot of dogs. Get on K9data and view his offspring. The list is a mile long. He was a fabulous, gorgeous, well-moving dog according to people that actually knew him when he was alive.


Thank you!


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

rabernet said:


> OK - so I have to ask - are there a lot of dogs who have Kirby in them?


Yes, I went through the pedigrees of 200 studs, I think I found less than 5 that did not have Kirby in it. My Sailor and Junie females are Kirby free, but my males, Kennedy and Louie do have him in it.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

maegan0412 said:


> Can't think of any Kirby free studs that also meet the other criteria off the top of my head. The studs I know of all have Kirby at least twice in five generations. I have a pretty big crush on Mystic, but he's "Kirby three" in five generations.


It is strange hearing my dog talked about on the forum. He is my pet, my love dog, sleeping on the bed right now.
Before choosing Mystic from Tamarack Goldens, I researched and researched all the Kirby rumors/ information and talked to the person who did the breeding that produced Kirby ( who chose to use Mystic and from whom I have Sayer). I continue to research as I make breeding decisions for my family of dogs. :smile2: 

Mystic's littermates have an outstanding clearance rate, temperaments, and accomplishments, and so far ( knock) Mystic has produced incredibly cleanly, aside from one grade I elbow. 

I suport and respect all breeders making rules for their programs- like less Kirby, The Aruba Factor etc, and I have a specific line/family of dogs I personally avoid myself. However, after a great deal of study, I dont find evidence that any line of goldens is trouble free . I love the breed with all heart, but it is not the healthiest breed, and there can be an element of picking your poison . Saying that, most of my goldens have liven into their teens( 13) with a few painfully younger and a few blissfully older. I have never seen or personally experienced a swallowing disorder in a golden, although a "British Creme" breeder in a neighboring state did lose an entire litter to one. The entire breed would benefit from more transparency and less rumor. 



MBIS MRBIS MBISS GCHG Tamarack And Blueprint's Defying Gravity SDHF, BISS (1/7/2014-) [OFA GR-116902G30F-VPI]

Am CH Tamarack's Ruby Tuesday (4/22/2013-) [OFA GR-113513G24F-VPI]

RBIS MBISS GCHB CH Tamarack All That Jazz AXP OAP NFP NAJ NA RE BN DS TKN CGC (1/7/2014-) [OFA GR-115684G25M-VPI]

Am CH Tamarack Enchanted (1/7/2014-) [OFA GR-116851G30M-VPI	]
MBISS AM GCHB/CAN CH Tamarack's Circle Of Life SDHF (1/7/2014-) [OFA GR-115255G24M-VPI]

BISS GCHB CH Tamarack Doin' What Comes Natur'lly UD, RA, AX, AXJ, WC, VCX, OBHF (1/7/2014-) [OFA GR-115257G24F-VPI]
CH Tamarack N' Summerwind's Ain't Mis-Behavin (1/7/2014-) [OFA GR-116105G27F-VPI]

Tamarack's Conspiracy Theory at Lakevue (4/22/2013-) [OFA GR-113462G24F-VPI]

UCD Tamarack Two Universes On The Fringe CDX TD (4/22/2013-) [OFA GR-114078G26F-VPI]

Am GCHB Tamarack's Warm And Fuzzy (4/22/2013-) [OFA GR-113421G24F-VPI]

BISS GCHB CH Tamarack Billions Of Stars Over Poeticgold CD RN TDI CGCA CGCU OS (4/22/2013-) [OFA GR-113397G27M-VPI]


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm not hating on Kirby- not at all- just would like to do a breeding on this bitch that would meet all my other expectations as well as be kirby free... 
I don't want anyone to think I think there's anything wrong w Kirby! I have plenty of Kirby in my other pedigrees lol!!


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Why yes I do know a Kirby-Free dog with a beautiful headpiece and lots of titles


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Ljilly28 said:


> It is strange hearing my dog talked about on the forum. He is my pet, my love dog, sleeping on the bed right now.
> Before choosing Mystic from Tamarack Goldens, I researched and researched all the Kirby rumors/ information and talked to the person who did the breeding that produced Kirby ( who chose to use Mystic and from whom I have Sayer). I continue to research as I make breeding decisions for my family of dogs. :smile2:
> 
> Mystic's littermates have an outstanding clearance rate, temperaments, and accomplishments, and so far ( knock) Mystic has produced incredibly cleanly, aside from one grade I elbow.


I think Mystic is a wonderful dog and would LOVE to meet you both in person someday! I really do have a big crush on him. I follow his facebook page too. 

And Elphie is just an incredible girl. I was rooting for her to repeat at Westminster this year.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Why yes I do know a Kirby-Free dog with a beautiful headpiece and lots of titles
> View attachment 787681


Is that Bally? He has Kirby in the 5th...3 times... 
Sorry OP- I didn't mean to steal your thread...


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

How about Tully? Pedigree: GCH Hyegold North Star CDX RN CGC TDI


----------



## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> Is that Bally? He has Kirby in the 5th...3 times...
> Sorry OP- I didn't mean to steal your thread...


I'm pretty sure that's Fisher. Your post made me curious so I looked through all the pedigrees I have saved, one of course is Fisher and noticed he is Kirby free. Then I started looking at Fisher's offspring and while Bally has Kirby, another son in Canada (Puzzle) is Kirby free. 

Pedigree: Can CH GMOTCH GMH Zaniri's Piece By Piece Can MH WCX RE VCX; Am UD WCX** CCA VC


----------



## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Bitches in the UK are limited to 4 litters and only allowed 2 caesarians. That seems very reasonable to me. Annef


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

That's Fisher. Yes Bally has Kirby thru his mother. 
Brix has no Kirby on his dam's side, 3% COI, yes please


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Fat-free, sugar -free, Kirby- free

It is worth noting that the person who did the breeding that produced Kirby reads this forum, and that he was actually someone's loved dog too. There are several dogs I do not wan t oil my pedigrees , but developing a catch phrase is going a little far when the owners and breeders are still living, caring,breathing humans.

I have owned 3 dogs with no Kirby in my lifetime, and one "low" Kirby. While one lived be nearly 16, one had severe idiopathic epilepsy and the line produced that.

The owner of a dog behind Kirby once shook her head, andtild nee how arbitrary she though to focus on Kirby,rather than a dog behind that. Maybe that is shorthand for bottleneck breeding of the 80's, but there are still rea lpeople who owned these dogs reading here.

There are also some Kirby free dogs producing a high ratio of eye and heart problems.


----------



## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Ljilly28 said:


> It is worth noting that the person who did the breeding that produced Kirby reads this forum, and that he was actually someone's loved dog too. There are several dogs I do not wan t oil my pedigrees , but developing a catch phrase is going a little far when the owners and breeders are still living, caring,breathing humans.


Maybe its just me, but I didn't interpret not wanting a popular sire in the line as a strike against the sire. I think genetic diversity is something that should be strived for and not something that people should take personally? In fact, people were very complimentary of Kirby (as they should be) in this thread.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

myluckypenny said:


> Maybe its just me, but I didn't interpret not wanting a popular sire in the line as a strike against the sire. I think genetic diversity is something that should be strived for and not something that people should take personally? In fact, people were very complimentary of Kirby (as they should be) in this thread.


I hear you. There was a group of breeders today in obedience class taking about how they wanted avoid any Strider in their pedigrees bc of heath beliefs they hold. I had the same gut feeling. We teach two Strider daughters who are 13 and 14, both healthy girls still with it enough to win in Rally. I fee protective of those owners hearing that dog bashed. It isn't that I think it is wrong not to want a popular sire or to exclude a sire or line for ones own reasons; I think sensitivity to the owners reading these threads is important too so as not to hurt feelings or make enemies. Realistically,if someone mentions a specific sire, than the owner is told in about twenty minutes to an hour, and reads here and there are feelings.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

For me- the culprit- I loved Kirby. BUT almost every pedigree has him (yes, as a bottleneck) in abundance. 
It's the the Charlie or the Peter from years prior. There are NO dogs I know of without Craigmont Peter in the pedigree. We're getting there w Kirby (because of his good traits) 

If I have the opportunity to keep a Kirby free line going, I should take it. Solely because I have the chance. 
Not because I fear him or believe anything about him, or his get, or theirs... I don't. He was a magnificent dog, but because of that magnificence, he is a big weight in our pedigrees. 
I do not avoid him (obviously, look at my dogs!) but in this case, I am.


----------



## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

I would assume that keeping an eye for genetic diversity would be a good thing. 

Perhaps instead look for some Hoover, Bissell or even some Dyson?
(Funny ha ha. I just can’t seem to shake the vacuum joke from my head reading this thread)


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I as a rule avoid anything with Charlie or any of his progeny in the pedigree. So there is no Kirby, Teddy, Charlie, or Peter in any of my dogs. 

There are lots of dogs without Kirby, although you may have to leave your Conformation World comfort zone to find them.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

annef said:


> Bitches in the UK are limited to 4 litters and only allowed 2 caesarians. That seems very reasonable to me. Annef


I'm very curious as to why the heck the UK government feels it necessary to regulate the amount of litters a bitch has and the amount of caesareans they have? I see that as complete over reach of the government. Just like deciding which collars, leashes and training methods we use. Nothing else is regulated like dogs are these days.

Isn't it the owner of the bitch that should be able to make that decision? Why is 4 a magic number?


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I could be wrong but I believe it is the Kennel Club that has that rule, not the actual country. 

The KC has been under a lot of Animal Rights extremists pressure. They have caved in several ways to this pressure I believe the limiting on the number of litters and the types of breedings (relatedness) where a reaction to the pedigree dogs exposed video.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

LJack said:


> I could be wrong but I believe it is the Kennel Club that has that rule, not the actual country.
> 
> The KC has been under a lot of Animal Rights extremists pressure. They have caved in several ways to this pressure I believe the limiting on the number of litters and the types of breedings (relatedness) where a reaction to the pedigree dogs exposed video.


Thanks for the details. It's hard to imagine that in our lifetimes we may see the end of dog ownership. All because a very small group of people want to control animal ownership world wide.


----------



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Alaska7133 said:


> Thanks for the details. It's hard to imagine that in our lifetimes we may see the end of dog ownership. All because a very small group of people want to control animal ownership world wide.


And they are starting this process by going after exotic animals first (think reptiles, fish, gerbils, hamsters, parrots, etc). The ones that they don't think people will make much of a fuss over. I used to breed ball pythons, and because reptiles are "icky" to so many people, they are easy to go after without many traditional pet owners really caring. However, they should care and talk to their legislators and follow what bills are being introduced - because these "non-traditional" pets are just the beginning of their "master plan". 

OK - steps off soap box!


----------



## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

It is the UK Kennel Club that have made the rule and it applies to all breeds. Personally I am all in favour of it. No bitch can be bred from under the age of 1 year and not over the age of 8 (except with special permission unlikely to be granted especially in popular breeds) There are also rules on very close matings as well. The idea is to promote a lower COI and widen the gene pool. If you look at the KC website you can see the restrictions. Annef


----------

