# Need some advice please



## Bonni (Apr 12, 2005)

Well, Daisy has just turned 8 months old and she's as playful as ever. Only problem is that she's now weighing in at close to 60lbs and stands just under 2ft high. Under normal circumstances, this wouldn't be a problem (we're actually happy that she's so healthy), but we're faced with one issue.

When we play outside with her after we get home from work and have her fed, she gets pretty excited and somewhat wild. When she was little, my husband played rough with her outside, which she loved. I guess she now does not understand that when she jumps and plays, it can be dangerous to us. She has also taken to chewing our shoes while outside. The only time we're "safe" is if we're holding another toy. We know that she really means no harm and that she's just playing, but we really need to get her to understand the problem here.

We have tried everything to get her to stop, but nothing seems to be working. Any type of anger/frustration-induced reprimand seems to only encourage her behaviour. Ignoring her leads to our feet being chewed.

Does anyone have any ideas how to break this behaviour? I don't want to have a bad dog, and I'm sure eventually she'll outgrow the behaviour, but I don't know if we can wait for 2 years!!!

Thanks, in advance,
Bonni (and Mark)


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

Woody had such a problem with play biting, and I tried those things too--ignoring him, popping him under the chin, etc.--none worked. I have to say that what worked for me was the "alpha roll." It is hard with a big dog, you may not even have to actually "roll" her, just give her a little grab and a growl. There is a thread somewhere in this forum all about the "alpha roll," you might check it out. Good luck, keep us posted!


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I feel the alpha roll is a last resort,I don't condone hitting,but sometimes you have to get their attention.To do this sometimes a quick jerk on a lead will do it,but when all else fails,I will use as a last resort,the following.
Make the peace sign,bring your fingers together a little bit, and give a short rap on the bridge of the nose.As you do this,yell very firmly NO! Don't say anything else,just NO! as you give a sharp(but not too hard) rap on the snout.The impact of the 2 fingers gives an echo in the nose.Coupled with the loud and firm NO! gets their attention and lets them know that you are not playing.If you hit them too hard you will hurt your fingers.So if your fingers hurt,ease off.You just want their attention for the NO!.After a while,just a NO! will be all you need.
And please,just NO!,not no don't do that or no stop that.That's too much,Just say NO! (sorry I couldn't resist) More than NO! confuses the issue.If this still doesn't work, search for "alpha roll" we have had several lively discussions in the past about the proper way to use that method.
I hope this helps.
Shane


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

Is there a reason you use the alpha roll only as a last resort, Shane? My knowledge of it is pretty much limited to what I have read at this forum, so I am interested to know more about it.

I also tried tapping Woody on the nose, as Shane suggested, but it only aggravated him and made him get more rowdy and nippy. But it might work with Daisy--definitely worth a try.

I just remembered another thing I did to stop his play biting. I put his leash on him and kept him near me (even in the house). Whenever he got too rough, I popped the leash and said "NO!" I still do that sometimes (just last night, in fact) when he gets too excited. You are right, with a big dog, it is a necessity for them to behave. There is too much potential for them to inadvertantly hurt someone.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

When Brandy gets over rambunctious, we simply stop playing with her and walk away. It's remarkable how fast she calms down.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

If Daisy will respond to the leash,that is very good.As for the nose rap,it's not the rap,but the loud NO! that works.The rap is to just get their attention.If She ignores the rap and the NO,maybe you are not doing it right.The rap must be with two fingers slightly apart so that when the side of the finger hits,the second finger hits the side of the other finger a fraction of a second later.You do this with the side of your finger,this is a physical and visual attention getter.Then the NO! must be sharp. If you still can't control her,here's an earlier post on the alpha roll.


> Your Golden is confused on who is the boss.You need to establish your alpha position so he knows who is in charge.Then he will listen and be eager to obey.
> My father taught me this trick (which I have used several times with GREAT success),You MUST be serious through out this action or your Golden will think you are playing.
> Grab him,flop him over on his back and bite his throat.Not too hard,we don't want blood.Hold him down and continue your bite until he surrenders.When he has stopped moving and has given up,let go and help him up.Lavish him with praise and lots of love.
> You will see an immediate change for the better.Just a stern look or vocal tone will be all the discipline you will need.He will train up very easy and will be a wonderful companion.
> Shane


 There are lots of posts on this,some pro,some con.I have used this with great success quite a few times.DONOT do this in a wimpy way.You MUST be stern and in complete control.DONOT growl in their face,that is a challange and unless you are strong and have a good grip you could get bit in the face.
Remember,your Golden is a dog,by using the alpha roll you are taking the lead position in your pack and he/she may not giveup easily.
Done properly,the alpha roll is very successful.I would suggest that you use the search function and read all the posts about it.
I'm sure that you will find the info that works for you and Daisy.There are a bunch of different methods and I'm sure one of them will work for you.
Shane


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

I am against the Alpha Roll in most cases. Also it is supposed to be used as a cure for dominance, if used at all. The problem here is you have trained your dog to play rough, and now that she is too big and it is no longer fun, you want her to stop, but she doesn't want to. Can't really blame her, rough play is more fun.

You need to redirect her behaviour, not punish her for something that is not her fault. After all, you admit that rough play was encouraged at one point. Can you change routine? Instead of taking her out after eating, can you go for a walk or something? 

I find this is where the clicker comes in handy. If you are used to training with the clicker, then once she starts misbehaving and chewing your shoes, you try to get her to do something positive. With Clancy, I knew he would sit on command no matter what. It was a reliable command when he was younger. If he was bad, I would command a sit and once he sat I had reason to Click and praise him, and I had regained control. Once you have control, you can redirect the play to something proper, like fetching tennis ball, and reward when she does it right.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Lucky has a dominence problem with me. I'm working on it so that it will be less an issue when he and I approx wieigh the same...which will be in about a year.

Lucky gets out of control in an aggressive play way. Nipping, jumping, barking. Ignoring does not stop him. When my husband says "no" he stops. When I say "no" he does not even begin to stop. 

Two things seem to stop his aggression for me. Snapping on a leash and walking him up and down the living room floor until he walks properly. Its a power stuggle I WILL WIN. And afterwards some positive diversion, like training with treats (or he'd get back into the aggressive mode as soon as the leash is off.) I've been doing this for a while and it helps. 

The other thing which I think I won't be able to do when he's eight months old, is putting him in an Alpha Mode and tapping him on the nose with a "no". 

I actually have to chase him....he's jumping and running at me, nipping my pants, barking...having a grand ole time. When I yell "no" he's barks and nips some more. The minute I grab for him he's off and running and so am I. I grab him, put him on his back and tap him on the nose and say "NO".

Ok...I've only done this since yesterday. But it seems to work. He stops and will listen to my "no's" for a time.

If he was bigger...and he will be....I'd have to use the leash as a means of control. And actually I'm going to start using that method more as I don't know how long this issue will be on.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Gosh, Lucky's Mom I just don't think that's a dominance problem as much as it is an out of control puppy problem. It's definitely not aggression -- he's not bullying you or attacking you with an intent to do harm. 

He's playing and doesn't realize that his rules are different than yours.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

> I feel the alpha roll is a last resort,I don't condone hitting,but sometimes you have to get their attention.To do this sometimes a quick jerk on a lead will do it,but when all else fails,I will use as a last resort,the following.
> Make the peace sign,bring your fingers together a little bit, and give a short rap on the bridge of the nose.As you do this,yell very firmly NO! Don't say anything else,just NO! as you give a sharp(but not too hard) rap on the snout.The impact of the 2 fingers gives an echo in the nose.Coupled with the loud and firm NO! gets their attention and lets them know that you are not playing.If you hit them too hard you will hurt your fingers.So if your fingers hurt,ease off.You just want their attention for the NO!.After a while,just a NO! will be all you need.
> And please,just NO!,not no don't do that or no stop that.That's too much,Just say NO! (sorry I couldn't resist) More than NO! confuses the issue.If this still doesn't work, search for "alpha roll" we have had several lively discussions in the past about the proper way to use that method.


As I stated above,alpha roll should be a LAST resort.
I believe that using NO! correctly is similar to the clicker method.Both use a sharp sound to gain control of the dog.I think with corrective training(redirection) you can gain control.Remember,the Goldens I have used the A R on were grownups and some what wild and without more than simple training.
I have always exhausted all other means of control before using the A R.
Patience and repetition will be the key in this situation.A habit has been created and it takes about 21 days to change a habit to what you want.
Keep at it,it just takes time,
Shane


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## Cassey (Sep 9, 2005)

Hey we have the same problem. We didn't play rough when she was young but at 51/2 months she started to jump and nip. NO isn't working. We didn't have this problem with our 1st golden and the behaviour has become worse since she was spayed (2 weeks ago)


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Bonni, I'm wondering if it would help if you and your husband would take Daisy on a nice leashed walk after work. That seems to help Lucky spend some of that surplus energy when he's excited. I know that might be a lot to ask after a long day at work, but I wanted to throw it out for consideration. It might be he would look forward to that and less into shoe chewing with time.

And I wanted to reply to some responses:

Well, brandy's mom, yes I used the word "aggressive' and that was wrong. He isn't mean...just playing...but not obeying the rules. Bad choice of word on my part. 

And Shane, the few times I did the Alpha Roll with the nose tap was when no other option seemed viable to get the behaviour to stop at that time. I did both (nose tap and roll) because he needed to be undercontrol so that I didn't knock an ear or eye and I wanted to make sure he wasn't harmed. Its a light tap unless it gets in an eye. The Alpha roll its self didn't work well.

*But...*like Daisy, he is going to be big soon, and so I don't really see that as an option anymore. I did it, it worked, because he's small and I'm big. I want to be consistant. So I'll keep his leash handy get him in control that way.

A sharp "NO" does help with his still painful mouthing, and I don't tap him for that.

I'm going to start a thread with all my issues to see what's normal or not. I didn't mean to take Bonni's space here.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

One thing that really worked for us was to use the Bitter Apple spray whenever Brandy started nipping or jumping uncontrollably. A nip at our pants resulted in a spray directly in her mouth. A jump resulted in a spray in her face. She got to the point where simply picking up the bottle stopped the behavior. Believe me, it didn't take long. 

Also, walking away from the behavior makes her think twice too. She wants our attention, and if we deny it she gets the idea.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I'll go along with Brandy's Mom and timberwolfe's assessments... I don't think these are cases of a dog attempting to dominate the owner (remember Daisy or Lucky are mentally puppies)... I believe this is normal Golden behavior... its more an expression of wild, un-containable joy and energy. In Daisy's case, this puppy being 8-months old and acting this way tells me she needs a LOT MORE exercise than she is now getting. Daisy should be exercised at least twice a day and get in a total of 6 to 8 miles of running/walking everyday... which, as a by-product, would entail at least 2-hours total of interaction time with humans per day. Exercise is cumulative... meaning if you start now you should begin to see real changes on about the third or fourth day of the new routine. She will still jump for joy at the first sign of human contact/interactivity but she will be MUCH easier and quicker to calm down (example: Sidney rarely gets hyper anymore but sometimes after a really successful agility run I will be celebrating and Sidney will want to also... if he starts jumping/nipping I simply fold my arms over my chest and turn to keep my back toward Sidney and he immediately stops). All young Goldens will jump and nip from time to time... its just how they celebrate... its more a matter of how often and for how long. If your Golden gets this revved up all the time and then you cannot easily calm him back down... guess what? Your Golden needs more exercise, every single day. And a word of caution... be careful of the type of exercise you select for a very young Golden because of his immature bone/joint structure, also slowly increase his level of activities (never subject him to the "weekend warrior" syndrome) and finally it's very important you NEVER exercise your dog AFTER his meal... this can cause bloat and worse torsion (that's where the stomach does a full rotation) this is a life threatening emergency situation... this is a very real danger with Golden Retrievers (as well as some other breeds). You should ideally finish exercising him at least 30-minutes BEFORE feeding.

As for Lucky... he's just a really young puppy, so be prepared for a LOT more jumping and nipping in the coming months. However he too probably needs more exercise and mental stimulation. At his age you should be playing/walking with him 3 or 4 times a day at 20 to 40-minutes each time. Careful not to force him past his limits though, quit the moment you sense he's tired.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

After reading some of these replies, I feel like I am a little confused about the whole aggression/dominance issue. How does one differentiate between aggression/dominance and just being playful?

As a younger puppy, Woody would get very playful and nippy, which I had read was normal. Then, when I tried to correct him, either by tapping on the nose or under the chin (advice from obedience class), he would curl back his lips and snap his teeth. He didn't really try to bite, but his teeth snapping together made sort of a frightening noise. His mouth and teeth are really big. The more I reprimanded him, the more he curled his lips and snapped his teeth, and sometimes even barked. This was when I resorted to popping the leash and the alpha roll. Was this aggression? Did I overreact? 

When I first decided I wanted a golden retriever, I found a golden mix at a local animal shelter. After just two weeks, she started guarding her food and toys, and then she bit my young son on the cheek. Of course I had to give her back to the shelter. My kids are young, and so I cannot risk having an aggressive dog. It would break my heart to ever have to give up Woody, and so maybe I overreacted to his "aggression."

Sorry, I too did not mean to take over Bonni's thread. But I would like to hear some opinions on this. If anyone would like to start a new thread to answer, I'd be glad to check it out. Thanks...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I hate speaking for someone else (but then I go and do it anyway) ...I don't think Bonni really cares, after all she hasn't even checked into this forum in 3 days. I assume she's just reading the replies through her e-mails.

By my way of thinking... I'd say you ask a very good question. I've had other dogs in my life but Sidney is the first Golden... and when we first got him, he was so different from any other puppy I've ever known/raised... we (my wife and I) were often in disagreement as to what was the problem. I did correspond with other Golden owners on another Golden Retriever forum and both of us talk to as many local Golden owners as we could trying to get some insight. What we found out basically was that Sidney's behaviors and mental development were normal for the breed and this knowledge was reassuring and helped guide us through that first year. Thinking about the question you are asking and reading Lucky's Mom's postings remind me of that time. You asked for opinions so that is what I will give you, my opinion (the way things are from my point of view) and so others will surely disagree but that then is their opinion, right?

I believe Golden Retrievers are quite different from most other dogs in a number of ways. They are a very mouthy puppy because they are after all a retriever (it comes along with the other genes that make retrieving so instinctive... remember 'retrieving' means to carry something in your mouth over and over, again and again and never get tired of doing it for the rest of your life)... so while most other dogs are easily trained not to nip/bite the Golden will be different, MUST be different. First off, I realized just as Lucky's mom has, that the part of the brain that manages self-control just isn't working in these puppies until much later (I believe week 14 or 15) and even when they can finally exhibit some self-control, the urge to bite is still too great to resist on a regular basis. Many 'veteran' Golden owners had told me, if you do nothing about the biting it makes no difference it will subside by the age of two... no corrections are necessary. This was too strange for me to believe, so we continued to correct Sidney for biting but changed our method (to a much gentler version) and lowered our expectations... sure enough the biting has gradually subsided where today he will only occasionally try to gently mouth my forearm (he never applies any pressure what-so-ever) and biting/nipping at my sleeve when he's really excited... excited enough to be jumping. Would this have been the case, even had we never corrected him? I don't know... maybe.

Also I experienced early on, as many other Golden owners have noticed too, that if you discipline a young Golden he will actually become even wilder... this happen with Sidney. Now I know this is not a normal response for other breeds of dogs (none that I have ever owned anyway)... but it evidently is with the Golden. I began to realize that rather than being a rebellious response to a correction, it was an acting out of stress for evidently not having pleased me... as bizarre as that might sound, I absolutely know that's the correct interpretation of the Golden response to harsh corrections. These guys have such a strong desire to please they are really stressed when you are upset... these dogs are very sensitive to their owners, its just that its not the way humans interpret sensitive. So the trick is not to have to punish them in the first place. I've heard a number of people suggest that Golden's are touch-sensitive... they get too excited when touched... many trainers suggest never use petting to reward a Golden because they just get revved up too easily... then they jump and nip. I believe its how they are wired to handle stress (at least when they are young). I think Sidney's our proof that the touch-sensitive thing is for the most part nonsense... all that's lacking is sufficient exercise. I learned that a long time ago with our other dogs... we've never had the kinds of problems other puppy/dog owners are always complaining of: separation anxiety, chewing up the house, digging huge craters, incessant barking, etc... these are all symptoms of lack of exercise. Give your dog enough exercise and you won't have to scold/punish him for mis-behaving. (I can actually give you many examples of how Sidney acts out whenever he senses I'm displease but this posting is already too long as it is.)

I've dealt with a few dominant dogs in the past and have been challenged at some point by every dog I've ever owned. The 'challenge' stage usually comes twice... once just before they turn a year old and again sometime between 1-1/2 and 2-1/2 years of age... and then never again. I've always subscribed to the Nothing In Life Is Free method... even long before I knew anyone had given it a name or that it was considered a 'method'. When a dog challenges you, they push you bump into you, lean up against you, they physically try to intimidate you, yes they even growl at you. Its how you handle these situations that determine how your relationship will progress. If you back-off or mis-interpret the signals and respond like you're backing down... the dog's boldness will grow and the physicalness of these challenges will likewise escalate... you're soon in trouble. But Goldens often demand attention by pushing your hand with their nose or laying their head in your lap and what about growling? Is all this a challenge? I believe not. For one thing many dogs become an adult before they are a year old... by 'adult' I'm referring to a mental state of mind... they are taking everything quite serious and so begin to test for opportunities for a 'promotion' at your expense. Goldens on the other hand are still too goofy at a year of age... they still have the mind-set of a puppy... they are still afraid of everything, don't challenge other dogs, etc... they simply don't have the proper mind-set to be challenging you for dominance. Judging by Sidney, this may be the first dog I've ever owned who will never try to dominate.

Finally, growling... there are growls and then there are GROWLS... our last dog use to growl all the time and it was never dangerous, ever! His growl was like that of a grumpy old man, who complain about everything... and so for example, Kimo would growl if I told him to get off the bed... an outsider might say, "He's challenging you!" but what Kimo was really saying was "You do know I was comfortable here, it was warm and soft and now I have to get off the bed, I hate when that happens, grumble, grumble"... nothing particularly dangerous there. Dogs growl in play and pretend... dogs growl when they are feeling good. You've got to be able to distinguish the growl that means "Get back or I'll bite you... I'm warning you, I really mean it!" To make this distinction you must look at body posture (ears, tail carriage, hackles, lips) and the look in the eyes. If your dog struts around other dogs, is challenging to them, guards possessions/food, does the serious type of growling, then yes, it is a bid for dominance over you... obviously this sounds like the shelter dog you took home... but does this really sound like Woody?

WOW, this is long enough to be a whole thread by itself... I wonder what Bonni will think when she gets this as an e-mail????


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

Monomer - YOU CRACK ME UP!!!!!!!!! Bonni's going to get you!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:

I have to agree with EVERYTHING you wrote in your last post. Goldens really are different than any other dog and they DO NOT get their brains until at LEAST age 2................ later than that for my MOJO.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

> WOW, this is long enough to be a whole thread by itself... I wonder what Bonni will think when she gets this as an e-mail????


Monomer,she will probably think,what a good friend I have to have spent so much time to help me,
and she'd be right.
That's some fine observations of Goldens and all I can add is thanks.
Shane


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Monomer,
That was an excellent post. So very helpful. 

As far as Dominance/Aggression, I think I have a handle on that. Puppies aren't too far off from kids. Two kids in overly rambuctious play are teetering on that line where a playful shove turns into a slam and then you got things spiraling out of control, a split lip and bloody nose. The _play _is too _aggressive_, as one tries to be the _"dominate"_ winner. A little calming timeout might be the answer. Lack of control, adrenyline and excitement are the culprits causing this situation. And built up energy from lack of exercise. 

So when Lucky starts nipping and growling but still in a somewhat playful way after I tap him on the nose, I see him as playing aggressively to be the dominate winner...all in fun of course. Perhaps timeout is the answer there. Training with treats seems to calm him down into a more respectable dog. That bitter apple spray has a forced calming effect.

*However* once I grabbed Lucky's food bowl to move it when he was eatting and THAT was a totally different situation. Snarling, bristling, snapping and growling like some killer animal. It was obvious he was being totally aggressive and I saw that as a CERTAIN problem. So I grabbed that food bowl and made it mine. It was quite the scene and it is the first and only time I've seen him aggressively possessive. 

I'm not overly concerned about it. It just needs to be dealt with. Now I have to make it a habit to take his food bowl away. My understanding is that a dog will be taught to get over this type of thing by not allowing the behavior to result in what he wants.

Well, thats my opinion. Make sense of it if you can.


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

That is a good post Monomer.

Lucky's Mom, you are describing food aggression and that is common. I think you dealt with it properly. I had that problem with Clancy a couple times with raw bones. I would go to move it or bring him inside and he would growl and look like he was ready to snap at me. This was when he was still under 1 year. I dealt with it immediately. However Tina saw it happen and she was terrified and wouldn't have been able to deal with it out of fear. I could see how someone who becomes afraid of their dog could easily let their dog take over because they are afraid.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

timberwolfe said:


> I could see how someone who becomes afraid of their dog could easily let their dog take over because they are afraid.


You are right...that is why I chose to give our shelter dog back, rather than attempt to deal with the food aggression. The people at the shelter gave me some good ideas about how to deal with it, but after the dog had bitten, honestly, I was afraid of her. I wouldn't have been able to "challenge" her assumed authority, because I was afraid of being bitten (or my kids).


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Food aggression is terrifying for me...and Lucky is a even a small puppy. I do a lot deep breaths and brainwashing (I'm alpha, I'm alpha) before I mess with his food bowl. With him being small I can grab his collar and keep his snapping teeth away but any larger dog would turn into a big problem.

Fortunately he hasn't reacted the way he did the first time...but he does tense up.

What a great thread topic. This is really an important issue.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I've always put my hand into the bowl and fingered the kibble as soon as I brought a puppy home. With an older dog, it's scarier to do that. So another way to deal with food aggression is to hand feed them part of their meals.


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## PJ Deragisch (Oct 4, 2005)

Never just put the food down for them to eat. Always make them come, sit, and stay. When they obey, they eat. That way they know that you are the boss, and not them.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

PJ Deragisch said:


> Never just put the food down for them to eat. Always make them come, sit, and stay. When they obey, they eat. That way they know that you are the boss, and not them.


Good point. I do that out of habit now, and had completely spaced about offering it as advice.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes, this is part of the Nothing In Life Is Free method/philosophy... A dog must do something for you in exchange for anything rewarding that you provide. The point is to keep reminding the dog that it is YOU, the human, who controls ALL the resources (everything he finds pleasurable in life... food, play, walks, petting, etc). Have your dog 'sit' (though laying down is a better posture from a submissive standpoint... but it usually takes time to get some dogs to that point) and then 'wait' for your "Okay" before eating. You also do this before snapping on the leash (to go for a walk), before opening a the door to go In or Out, before playtime, etc... Later the NILIF ritual can become more elaborate before allowing the dog access to the more desireable resources. This is something most experienced dog owners do without even thinking about it (an example: Brandy's Mom).

If your dog is already snapping then yes, you need to put a tab (shorty leash) on your dog and start hand feeding one kibble at a time, over and over again using the tab to enforce any infractions of the rules (i.e. trying to lunge and snap before you give the "Ok")... yes, that means mealtime will be a long/slow process but soon you can graduate to the next level... Divide up the whole meal into several smaller portions, then hand deliver the bowl with the first portion only after your dog is sitting calmly and waiting... if he moves, even twitches, before you release the bowl quickly pull the foodbowl back up (using the tab if he is too quick or growly), once he is calm and submissive you can leave the bowl down and give the "OK", when he is finished you pick the bowl back up and re-fill with another small portion, and so on... When that can be done successfully, then try adding the next food portion by hand just before he's finished with the last... he should come to recognize that the hand is a food delivery device. Finally the last stage is for you to remove the food bowl while he is still chowing down... you add more food (or a special goodie) and return the bowl while he sits and waits for the "OK".

Depending upon your dog's degree of food possessiveness, you can start at whatever point in the above method you feel is appropriate. Even if your dog merely tenses up and stops eating when you approach his bowl but doesn't snap, you still definitely have a food possession problem that will surely escalate if not dealt with. And its important to know that just because a dog will mind your authority, this does NOT automatically transfer to others in the household (i.e. your children)... everyone must practice NILIF with the dog.

And one last thing... it is a frightening thing when 'fluffy' turns and snarls, growls and then snaps at you. My wife almost fell for this with our last dog. She was starting to become afraid and back off. However, I just pushed my face right up to young Kimo, nose-to-nose literally daring him to bite me (with the meanest, baddest stare I could muster)... and HE backed right up and gave me a lick. After seeing this, my wife knew she had to be able to do the same thing (the 'show no fear thing' not necessarily the nose-to-nose stunt I pulled) but she was really becoming frighten of him. I could not make Kimo respect her, only she could do that. Eventually, I convinced her to get mad at him... be angry because he's being a jerk and with that frame of mind she conquered her fear of being bitten. Both anger and fear are very intense emotions... so intense and opposite that they canNOT both be present at the exact same instant in time. By displacing the fear with anger my wife was able to quickly convince Kimo that she was alpha. However remember to only 'think anger', don't act out on that anger and strike the dog, that would be cruel and only weaken any bond that exists.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I am one that believes that totally unacceptable behavior should be dealt with strongly and now.. I totally throw a fit.. lots of noise and some thumps on the rear... I dont believe in nagging for life.... much like being married.. (no, I dont thump my wife on the rear).  
Assuming the dog knows what "no" means and you say no, but the behavior continues, then it is enforcement time. Then we can get on with life on the couch.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Well Greg, Your philosopy matches my child rearing techniques to a tee. But this kibble handfeeding helps me get over my fear and builds my confidence. 

The only time Lucky did this aggression behaviour I reacted with my own teeth gnashing so to speak, and that was the best response, and he was a submissive little cuddle thereafter. But I was taken by surprise. There is nothing to fear but fear itsself I think some wise president said.

Funny thing...I tried to feed Lucky out of my hand today. He just hated it. He stared and stared. Refused to eat it and after a bit knocked the food out of my hand with his paw. I played with his kibble in the bowl with my fingers. He stared intently, not likeing his space invaded...but no aggression. He was uncomfortable but not tense. He refused to eat when my hand was in his bowl, and this dog was hungry. It was really kindof amusing and I think we'll try this "therepy" for a while, though I think the "therepy" is more beneficial for me then him.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

None of my "kids" will cause any kind of problem with their food or treats.One of the first things I do is give them a chewie and them take it away.Once they are comfortable with this,I put my hand in their mouth as they are chewing on it.I make them chew around my hand.If they bite me,I take away the goodie.I do this over and over until they understand that the chewie is MINE and I'm just letting them use it.
When we feed them,we tell them"positions,everybody in position".Nobody gets food until everybody is in "position",which is in front of their bowl stand.Once in place,the bowels go down in order of seniority,Amber,Sam,Jessie and Katie.It's almost at the same time,just a second or two between.This works very well and reminds them of who's in charge.
Shane


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## goldiegirl (Nov 18, 2005)

I was just like you monomer. When I got Manni, I put the food bowl down, then few seconds later pull it up to see her reaction. When it was time for feeding, she saw me with her bowl. I waited and had her sit before she can have it. Then when I did put it down, I would say wait, wait..okay. Even now when the food bowl goes down, she automatically looks at me to say okay. 
My other who is a sheltie, had that nippiness with the food bowl. I put my face right in her bowl to see. She growled, and I said I don't think so. I picked her bowl up and gave it back when she was behaving. I did that even with her toys. I was afraid to get nipped, but rather me than a child.


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## timberwolfe (Apr 15, 2005)

When Clancy was a puppy I did the same sort of thing. I would put my hand in his bowl and take some kibble, hand feed him, remove bones and toys and then give them back, etc, as people here mentioned. But this also brings to mind the importance of how you handle your dog from day one. I have always looked in his ears and checked his teeth and handled his paws including each individual toe, even when I knew nothing was wrong with him. It makes him used to being handled and makes vet experiences easier. Also it helps establish you as boss very early.


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## Bonni (Apr 12, 2005)

*This has turned into quite a discussion...*

Hi everyone. I'm so sorry I haven't posted or been on in some time. Things at work and at home have been chaotically (I think I just invented a word) busy and I really haven't had a chance to sit down and correspond until now.

Well, I wanted to thank everyone for their advice. We seem to have Daisy under control, more or less, now. She still gets excited around play time, but she's becoming more obedient. She gets tons of exercise...she always has. One of us walks her every day for at least an hour and we also spend a good 30-45 minutes playing tag, fetch or keep-away with her in the yard. This way she's getting some good running in too, which totally tires her out. A tired dog is a well behaved dog.  

I have had to resort to the alpha roll a few times, and it really works. I don't hold her hard enough to hurt her...I wouldn't never do that, but I hold her long enough to get a little whimper and then let her up. As soon as she's up, she's calmed down and gives kisses. It's only happened a few times and I don't enjoy doing it. Now that she's so big, it's not so easy.

It's funny that the topic of food related aggression came up. We have experienced this with Daisy in two situations. When we give her a raw bone and we saw it last night when we gave her a new food that contained game (venison and buffalo meat). Both times, when we approached her, she growled so fiercly, I was truly afraid of her. When it happened to me with the raw bone, I freaked at her. I don't recall ever yelling so loudly in my life. I think part of it was out of fear and part of it was out of frustration. I had a whole bag of bones in the freezer that went right in the garbage. I cannot deal with that sort of behaviour. You have to understand that I can reach down and take her food at any time and she wont bat an eye. I have never had a problem taking her toys from her and she's more than willing to relinquish any treat if I reach for it. I've even gone so far as opening her jaw to see what she was chewing on and have stuck my fingers in her mouth to retrieve foreign stuff. It's never been a problem.

The bones and this particular food were another issue. It's like she transforms into a crazed wolf when she's around raw meat. This morning, my husband fed her this game food. He noticed that she was literally Hoovering it, so he called her name a few times to get her to slow down. I guess she felt threatened, and she turned to him, beared her teeth, her ears went back and she growled like she meant business. Just like with the bones. We both find this very very disheartening, since we are the ones giving her the food and are truly scared to deal with the issue since neither one of us want to get bitten. I'm not sure if avoiding these triggers is the right answer or not, but it works for now. So, for the time being, she's only strickly kibble and the odd package of IAMS wet food. Nothing exotic.

Well, I'm rambling. Sorry about that. Again, I apologize for not being able to post sooner. Funny how life gets in the way sometimes!  

Hope everyone is well, and I wish you all a happy and healthy holiday season to you, your families and, most important, your Goldens! :smooch: 

Woof,
Bonni


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## Bogart'sMom (Sep 16, 2005)

I would also stop playing and go inside when she is not behaving they learn very fast. My pup now is 5 months old and when he playbites and he knows no bite now because I will say it and get up and stop playing. Now when I say no bite he stops and looks at me like okay bummer and I give him a pat he enjoys.
Also for biting your shoes try to spray bitterapple on the shoe before going outside. She is not going to enjoy that I almost gurantee it.
Most dogs don't like the tast or smell of it.
I use it when Bogart is trying to chew on something that he is not suposed to.
Elke,ZsaZsa and Bogart


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## Bonni (Apr 12, 2005)

Hey Bogie.

We tried the bitter apple on an area rug that we had purchased (a cheap one, just to protect our carpet from muddy paws during the wet months). Daisy had started chewing on the rug, so we sprayed it and it worked for about a day. Then she didn't care. We've had to remove the rug when we're not home now.

Why does my dog seem to be the only one out of control? :doh: (Actually, she's an angel most of the time. It's an 80/20 split)

We have started coming inside when she gets out of control. She's given up on shoes now and has a new interest in gloves/mittens. There has been zero tolerance for that. 

We're getting there, but it's taking time. Hopefully before she's two, we'll have her under control. I guess if I had kids, they'd be bratty!  

Thanks for the advice,
Bonni


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Lucky is not much affected by the bitter apple when applied to items except for directly after I spray. For instance, if Lucky chews that special spot he likes to chew on our carpet I'll say "NO" and spray it while he's looking on. Though he can go back to it pretty quick, he's doing it less and less. 
I've not found it useful to keep him away from things simply because they've been sprayed....But it does stress a "no" and make it unappealing at the time. 
When he wants to play and doing things for attention (grabbing "no" things and running with it or nipping at my clothes, chewing on my shoes as I wear them) I've found the spray not effective unless I get his tongue. And I only do that when he chews or nips on me. He looks too darn cute running with my shoe for me to get to harsh with him. 
Gloves and scarves has been a real problem. Yep, they must look like candy to dogs. When I'm getting ready to take him out and as I'm TRYING to get bundled up, he is so excited that he's grabbing the stuff as I put it on. The only thing that works for me is keeping a real tasty treat by the door. He listens to my commands when food is the motivater.
Good luck to you. I know the frustration of these 20% moments.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Bonni said:


> Hi everyone. I'm so sorry I haven't posted or been on in some time...


No need to apologize for having a life... 


Bonni said:


> ...When we give her a raw bone and we saw it last night when we gave her a new food that contained game (venison and buffalo meat). Both times, when we approached her, she growled so fiercly, I was truly afraid of her...
> ...I had a whole bag of bones in the freezer that went right in the garbage...
> ...I have never had a problem taking her toys from her and she's more than willing to relinquish any treat if I reach for it...
> ...The bones and this particular food were another issue. It's like she transforms into a crazed wolf when she's around raw meat. This morning, my husband fed her this game food. He noticed that she was literally Hoovering it, so he called her name a few times to get her to slow down. I guess she felt threatened, and she turned to him, beared her teeth, her ears went back and she growled like she meant business. Just like with the bones. We both find this very very disheartening, since we are the ones giving her the food and are truly scared to deal with the issue since neither one of us want to get bitten. I'm not sure if avoiding these triggers is the right answer or not, but it works for now. So, for the time being, she's only strickly kibble and the odd package of IAMS wet food...


What you've written above really bothers me... I will give you my opinion... you've got a REAL BIG problem starting to happen and instead of trying to avoid it (or its 'triggers') you should be dealing with it 'headlong'. Its sounds like a serious case of food aggression... and that weak explanation that it just happens only when wild game is involved and only with bones, doesn't excuse the behavior, because it WILL be kibble next and then favorite toys and pretty soon when she's long since figured out you guys can be intimidated by her, she will be totally convinced she's the leader of the pack... and you know what? she'll be right! You need to get those bones right out of the trash and begin dealing with this 'test' issue... it's her testing for your response. Also you need to start practicing "Nothing In Life Is Free" because the mere fact that she is growling and snapping is irrefutable proof that her does NOT regard you and your spouse as anything more than roommates. You can take things out of her mouth right now only because she is letting you do so... she is slowly becoming aware of this fact right now... please, don't let this thing escalate.


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## goldiegirl (Nov 18, 2005)

I found out last week from reannon's trainer, that bitter apple last only 24 hrs. It does not say it on the bottle, so she looked it up on the internet. I am just wondering if anyone knew that too?


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

Monomer - I have to agree with you!!!!!


BONNI - PLEASE listen to Monomer............. it's exactly as he says. I know she's cute and a sweetheart and you love her dearly BUT you are NOT, I repeat NOT doing her any good by letting her growl at you. 

THAT IS NOT ALLOWED!!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO IF'S AND'S OR BUT'S!!! 

Start doing some research on food aggression and you'll see what we mean. Please, please listen. It's SO VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

JOE & VIERKA - Please make sure Bonni reads this.....


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## Joe (Apr 9, 2005)

We went through the same with Kia and Lila. 
But they would growl at us only couple of times when they were very young, before we showed them not to do it.

If Kia growled at us, we would be taking the food from her and then giving it back to her and praise her well for being ok with us doing so. 
Eventually (but Kia was an exception, as it took only 2-3 times) she realized that we are her masters and I can pretty much take food with my bare hands right from her mouth even if she didn't eat for two days. I think she now knows we are the master who can do anything. I never tried someone else to take food from her... that might be a different scenario...but in my and Vierka's case we can do it anytime and Kia would just accept it.

Same thing goes for Lila, altough she was little harder to train....
It took maybe a week or two or so.. to show her that she cannot even make a sound at me or Vierka. Growling is completely out of question.
The way we thought her this, was to give her a food, then right after she started to eat, we would take it back. Same as with Kia we also kept on repeating it till she was fine with taking the food fro her. 
I could see she is hating this nasty food game... , but she found that if she stayed quitely waiting for her food, it worked well for both of us.

Anyhow... Bonni, you might be quite late now, if she growls at you guys, it basically means that she thinks she is more of a master at home than you are. Well, this way... it's never too late and you should definitely do something about it.

One more thing I found quite effective with Lila was to give her the bowl with food and tell her to sit and stay. 
She would be looking at me, then at her food and this basically taught her to look at me as a master who lets her do all the stuff she likes, like eating 
First she would try to not to listen to "stay" command and would try to get to her bowl anyways. But she quickly learned that she will never get to her food unless I let her. So now she waits and looks at me patiently waiting for command to go.

I play this "Sit-Stay" game with both of our Goldens (Kia and Lila), almost every day ... as this not only shows them who is their master, but also teaches them to be patiente and keeps them remembering basic commands like sit and stay.  

Joe


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## lola'smommy (Dec 19, 2005)

Those are awesome "food exercises". I should start that with Lola. She doesn't have a food aggression problem. But, at the same time it doesn't hurt to practice commands and good behaviour with her. At 10 weeks I can't believe that she is already getting the "sit, stay" down. 

I apologize for the thread hijacking I had one question: What do you do when you scold your dog for bad behavior that isn't related to eating food. And, the dog turns on you by growling. My older 3 yr. old has been doing that. I cannot stand it and will not tolerate it at all. I just pick her up and put her in the time-out bathroom for a few minutes. I don't know what else to do. How do you get them to stop that? Now back to the food aggression thing. What do you do if they continue to growl at you when you take the food away?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Lucky had two food aggression issues...one of which I noted on this thread, and another I will discuss on another thread maybe tonight. 

But I really think all dogs have some predisposition for it....but starting the exercises early while they are cute and small is sooooo much easier. It becomes a real intimidation issue as they get older and you are surprised by that sudden growl you didn't expect. Now that I've dealt with my second one...I'm not intimidated at all. Maybe that was a mountain I had to climb.


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