# The Importance of Raising a Dog from a Puppy



## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

FineChina said:


> That's why I beleive so strongly in raising dogs from puppies. On old dogs being abandoned, I posted below that some of those dogs were let go because they could no longer control their waste functions indoors. That is a very difficult situation for a pet owner and I understand why the owners made decisions in those cases.


Huh. :scratchch


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Huh, squared...


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Ummm, this should be interesting.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> This is my experience on why I feel very strongly that raising your animal from a small puppy leads to a much better discplined and happy pet and family experience.
> 
> Both of my big breed dogs (our doberman that lived to 14) and our current golden are/were extremely well disciplined. Both leave the room upon command. Both go inside and outside on command (when I am outside and tell the dog "get inside" it does so promptly. Neither dog ever would bolt from us when free the yard and would always come to us immediately upon calling.
> 
> ...


 
THis is one of the more interesting posts I've read in a while. 
I'm curious. What would you suggest is done with those older dogs who are in need of homes for reasons other than having been turned in/abandoned due to either agressive tendencies, or no longer being able to control their waste functions indoors. And, what will _you _do with the dogs that you have raised from puppyhood if/when they can no longer control their waste functions indoors for whatever reason?


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

FineChina said:


> We adopted from a shelter a one year labrador about 20 years ago, The dog was aggressive and a biter. Knowing we were going to have children we returned the animal within one week. My sense was that an adult dog with aggressive tendencies could not be turned.


But... you didn't even try to train him? You had him a week? 

****.

SHAME on that dog for not having such a genius owner like you when that dog was a puppy. Shame shame!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I have to agree about the bond that develops with one-owner dogs. I've certainly experienced all that FineChina talks about in his post. Daisy is almost 9 years now, we're like an old married couple.

I am a little confused about the last comment, older dogs being let go because they start to have accidents indoors. You would have to kill me to get Daisy from me now, no matter what happens as she ages. I'm here for the remainder ... and no, I don't understand how owners can give up their senior dogs just because they are seniors. It's an absolute betrayal of your dog's trust and the bond that you've created over the years.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

HHHMMMMMM, wow, what assumptions from the experience of 4 dogs. I have a feeling that HUNDREDS of cases of rescue right here on the forum will dispute your theory. I have a formerly abused springer at my feet who is a prime case.


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## docinbird (Apr 27, 2009)

I have raised two dogs from pups, adopted three others from breed-specific organizations, and fostered more dogs that I can count on my fingers and toes. My experience is different that what you describe.

I have found that an adopted dog really values a good home and is very much motivated to learn what they need to learn to please me and earn their part of their new family/pack. They have learned quickly and have developed the confidence to go with me to places that might surprise you. Other folks just assume that they are trained service dogs (in a way, they are), and treat them as such.

Yes, each rescued dog has issues from their past that must be overcome, but they *can* overcome these remnants of their early history. One dog was suspicious of males wearing hooded sweatshirts with the hood pulled up when the temperature was over 90 degrees. Huh, so am I, come to think of it. By providing support and training, this was overcome.

The thought of any of these dogs languishing in a shelter (or worse) is difficult for me. I humbly suggest that you don't know what you have been missing.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

FineChina said:


> That's why I beleive so strongly in raising dogs from puppies. On old dogs being abandoned, I posted below that some of those dogs were let go because they could no longer control their waste functions indoors. That is a very difficult situation for a pet owner and I understand why the owners made decisions in those cases.


First off, there are many here involved in rescue or have rescued (myself included) that will disagree with you that only dogs raised from puppies "leads to a much better disciplined and happy pet and family experience." But really, you can only base this on your own personal experiences so I kinda understand where you're coming from. Thank goodness there are many families out there who don't feel the same. 

Second, if my senior dog could no longer control their waste functions and no medical treatment was available I would never, ever, bring the dog to a rescue or a shelter (!!!!). The humane thing for ME to do would be to have my dog put to sleep. Tough decision? Yes. Hard to do? Yes.

For the last year and a half of his 14 year life, my husky mix had no control over his bowel movements (spinal/nerve issues) and it was always a race to get to the door in time. 95% of the time we were cleaning up poop at 3am. Honestly, if we'd have had carpet instead of Pergo on the floors we may have ended up sending him to the bridge sooner than we did. And in the end, that wasn't the reason at all.

A few months ago, my foster dog (5 years old) was adopted by a family...well, really it was the 10 year old daughter. She has cancer and adopting a rescue Golden was her "make a wish". She could have gone swimming with the dolphins, but she wanted to rescue. I pray her cancer stays in remission forever.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have to wonder what exactly the point to the original post was, if in fact there was one.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I have to wonder what exactly the point to the original post was, if in fact there was one.


Without being sarcastic and reading it again, maybe it was just so the OP could talk about how well trained her dogs are? I dunno.....


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I want to clarify that I did not mean to minimize the relationships we have with our rescues. I have not gone that route personally, yet. I am only speaking about the strength of my relationship with Daisy ... I've had her since she was 8 weeks old. There is definitely something to be said for that. But I can easily imagine there is also a very special bond between a rescued dog and its owner ... hopefully someday I'll be able to experience it.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

FineChina said:


> A dog that you have not raised just does not have that personal bond imo. And you do not know their past.
> 
> Raising a dog from puppyhood creates a unique bond. You are their world.


I disagree. With much of your post, actually, but these lines specifically.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I have to agree about the bond that develops with one-owner dogs. I've certainly experienced all that FineChina talks about in his post. Daisy is almost 9 years now, we're like an old married couple.



The bond I have with Dillon is no less than had I raised him as a puppy. I think if you adopt an adult rescue Jo, your opinion would change.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

3 out of my 4 I got as puppies and Hootie is the odd man out, I got him at a year old and the op's statement is farthest from the truth. His bond with me and my family is just as strong or even stronger than the others who I got as puppies. I have seen very very strong bonds with our rescue and there families. It must be the right dog and fit for the family!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

<<
Originally Posted by *FineChina*  

A dog that you have not raised just does not have that personal bond imo. And you do not know their past. 

Raising a dog from puppyhood creates a unique bond. You are their world.>>

Ummm...yeah. 
How can you even know this? Did you clone your dog, let someone else raise the clone, then own him again and see if your bond was as strong? This is a totally impossible thing to state. You can't possibly know if you would bond as strongly to an older dog vs. puppy if it's the same dog. Every dog is different so how can you compare them.
This is a really bizarre post. So would the original poster have all older dogs in need of homes be sent of to a deserted island rather than adopting them into new homes?
Sheesh.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

missmarstar said:


> The bond I have with Dillon is no less than had I raised him as a puppy. I think if you adopt an adult rescue Jo, your opinion would change.



No, what she was saying was that she thought the bond between owner and dog is strongest if the person only owns one dog.
Ummmm....again...okay. I guess people with more than one child love them all less too.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I just have to add that I have raised 4 dogs from young puppies and out of them one was very aggressive (not her fault, her whole litter was euthed before they reached a year old, except for my dog that I kept for 10 years), one was the best dog in the whole world, one was hit by a car at 1 year old, so I don't know how she would have turned out, and my Jasmine that I have right now. Jasmine is pretty well trained, but very stubborn. She does things at her speed. She does it, but not as quickly or as eagerly as I would like. She is almost 9 years old.

Jasper was 4 1/2 months old when he came in as my foster and I adopted him. Danny was 5 months old when he came in as my foster and I adopted him. Both of them are extremely well trained and totally bonded with me (and me with them). 

Oh, and Tess came in at 10 years old and lived her last 2 1/2 years with me. She and I were also totally bonded. I considered her my heart dog. She was obedient and adored me as much as I adored her.

So no, I can't see what you are saying at all. If you haven't tried it, then I am not sure how you can state something so strongly as fact. Your opinion, yes. Though I still disagree with it.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> No, what she was saying was that she thought the bond between owner and dog is strongest if the person only owns one dog.
> Ummmm....again...okay. I guess people with more than one child love them all less too.


Huh??? No, that's not what I was saying at all. Actually, that thought never crossed my mind! Did you get confused when I said one-owner dog? Not the same as a one-dog owner


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> No, what she was saying was that she thought the bond between owner and dog is strongest if the person only owns one dog.
> Ummmm....again...okay. I guess people with more than one child love them all less too.



She said "one-owner dogs" so I assumed she meant dogs that were raised from puppy hood by one owner, rather than being adopted to a new one as a rescue later in life.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

fostermom said:


> I just have to add that I have raised 4 dogs from young puppies and out of them one was very aggressive (not her fault, her whole litter was euthed before they reached a year old, except for my dog that I kept for 10 years)



Off-topic, but just had to comment on this... WOW. that's very sad. Wonder what happened with that poor litter


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> The bond I have with Dillon is no less than had I raised him as a puppy. I think if you adopt an adult rescue Jo, your opinion would change.


It's hard for me to imagine that I will have with another dog, the bond I have with Daisy. But your post gives me hope


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> It's hard for me to imagine that I will have with another dog, the bond I have with Daisy. But your post gives me hope



She will always be your special heart dog, no doubt, but your heart has plenty of room to let another one in when the time comes..


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> Off-topic, but just had to comment on this... WOW. that's very sad. Wonder what happened with that poor litter


The litter was dropped off at the vet's in their flower bed without a mom at 2 weeks old. The vet started rehoming them at 4 weeks old. They never got the necessary socialization that they needed from each other. She came to us when we had another dog and she was fine with her, but her dog aggression and people aggression grew. It wasn't her fault.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

I got Tysen at 11 months, and the bond between us is pretty strong I would say. So I think Tysen would argue your point - and probably win.


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

Well I have to chime in here. First, I am really unsure what the point here is. I think it is wonderful you were able to raise your puppies and have that wonderful bond. I opted to rescue. No, I do not know the history of Sampson who I rescued at about a year of age. I do know that he was neglected and kept tied outdoors. That was more than enough for me to want to offer him a much better life than his previous one.

Bonded? I am absolutely 1000% certain Sampson has no memory of his previous crappy life. He and I could not possibly be more bonded than had I raised him from a pup and I know this with complete certainty. I also know in my heart that somehow Sammy knew he was rescued from a very bad home when he first arrived here. He knew we were offering him something better. 

Yes, he came with no training and a lot of bad habits. They were not anything that could not be changed. You can teach an old (or young) dog new tricks! Sampson was a charming and willing student. He was more than eager to please. Today, almost three and a half years later, he is a wonderful and absolutely perfect boy. With nearly impeccable manners! He is happy, well adjusted, goofy, charming beyond measure.

Honestly, the only thing I missed out on was the opportunity to know him as a puppy, and of course puppy pictures.

I think to say that the bond is strongest when raised from a puppy only is unfair. I could not be closer to Sampson had I had him since birth.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

As I was reading from the beginning I was wondering what the people who have rescued were going to say.

I have always gotten my dogs as puppies, so I understand what you were saying there.

But I have also worked in rescue, fostered goldens and worked with hundreds of families who have rescued goldens of almost every age from puppy to age 14. All of these people LOVE their goldens and have bonded with them. Most as much as I have with mine whom I love more than life itself. 

I would NEVER dump my dog at a shelter, EVER! If there ever was anything that happened that I could not care for my dogs (I can't even imagine what) they would go to rescue to be adopted by another loving family.

I can see possibly someone having their dog PTS because it lost total control of bladder or bowel function and there was no treatment/solution. but never dumped. 

I find people who get rid of their dogs due to age, no time, sheds, all the reasons we hear in rescue, Reprehensible. But I am so grateful rescue is there for those poor sweet pups.
I am heartsick to go and due an assessment on a wonderful 11 year old golden whose family since birth has no time for him.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Debles said:


> I am heartsick to go and due an assessment on a wonderful 11 year old golden whose family since birth has no time for him.


That's a tragedy  You are his lucky day, Debles ... a long time in coming but thank God.


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## beccacc31 (Aug 17, 2009)

The OP wrote all of that and never returned to comment? That might be the biggest HMMMM of all! 
Kevin had Mitchell from a puppy, I came along when Mitchell was 8ish and he passed in early August. He was our dog! He loved us both and we both loved him. I was just as important to him even though we only had each other for 5 1/2 yrs. We are currently looking for a puppy but I would rescue in a minute! I am considering adopting the mother of the litter we are looking at along with our puppy! I don't think for a minute that she would not bond with us!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think there's a training and socialization advantage when you get a dog at eight weeks, especially if it was handled and pre-trained by a competent breeder.

That said, all dogs can learn new tricks, and an immense amount of socialization can be accomplished even in an older dog.

As far as the bond, who can judge how much a person loves a dog and how much a dog loves a person? There's no measurement, no unit, no means of comparison.

A dog that's very "bonded" can have separation anxiety, but would we consider that "love" or an idea kind of relationship? I've had Comet since 8 weeks, but he'd happily go off with a friendly stranger with a tennis ball. Does that mean he's insufficiently "bonded?"


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## Meggie'sMom (Dec 24, 2007)

The original post here makes me very sad - and a bit speechless. I can only say that I am glad that people are different, because if everyone felt this way there would be no one to take the sweet souls who are dumped daily in shelters or dropped at rescues. Dogs who deserve a human and a family who love them. Dogs who have done nothing wrong except they grew up from being the "cute puppy" or perhaps their owners had babies and the dog no longer "fit in". Reading the reason people surrender dogs just hurts my soul, I can't even begin to comprehend the ones who simply dump them or worse, abuse and neglect them. 

And what of our seniors who start to have incontinence issues and rack up vet bills... well this is where I just go speechless...


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

I guess for me it was not important that I raised Sampson from a puppy. Sadly I was never given that opportunity. What is important is that I am able to raise him in a loving home. Sampson will never sleep alone outside again tied to a tree. Sampson has "brothers" to romp and wrestle with, 2 square meals a day (and treats in between), cozy beds, a ton of toys, almost two fenced acres to explore. Far more important he gets daily head and ear rubs, a hundred hugs and kisses, and an abundance of love.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I have adopted or otherwise rescued at least nine adult dogs, ranging in age from 1 to 7 years old at the time. NONE OF THESE DOGS HAS BEEN AGGRESSIVE. NONE OF THESE DOGS HAD HOUSETRAINING ISSUES (most were already housetrained; the others I housetrained).

Jackson was my heart dog. I adopted him when he was a year old; he lived to be more than 15 years old. His only 'fault' was that as a terrier, he was a bit hard to housetrain. 

Personally, I find the original post both very sad and insulting to those of us who choose to rescue older dogs. I hope the OP's perfect dogs never develop incontinence or other problems as they get old, or they'll likely end up dumped in an animal shelter.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Meggie'sMom said:


> And what of our seniors who start to have incontinence issues and rack up vet bills... well this is where I just go speechless...


Me too. The only thing I can understand about that is that the owners never really loved their dog at all.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have had a mix of rescues and dogs raised from puppies. I have no less bond with the rescues as I do with my other dogs. Actually, I find that the dogs I raise from puppies tend to take me and their lifestyle for granted, while my rescues show so much appreciation for everything in their lives.

I rescued a Lhasa Apso about 4 years ago. A member of a local rescue group watched him running around the street for a week, and finally decided to pick him up. I fell in love with him at first sight, offered to foster, and of course signed the adoption papers a week later.

This dog has been the number 1 obedience Lhasa Apso in the nation every year since I began competing with him 3 years ago. He earned 4 High in Trials while in Novice, earned his title out of open earlier this year, and we hope to be in utility next year.

All that being said, I do believe that getting a performace prospect as a puppy can lead to several advantages. You have the opportunity to expose him to different things as a youngster, which can really help his confidence level later. But that doesn't mean you can't work hard and be successful with a dog you get that is older. As for the bond being stronger if you get them as a puppy? I say Phooey!

I actually think that for the average family, getting a dog that is a little older is the best way to go. Sure, puppies are adorable, but they're also exhausting!


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I'll have to figure out how to send the OP's comments to one of the members of my breed club, who adopted an older golden through our related rescue organization and put an UD title on him. Wonder if they bonded at all while they went through Novice, Open and Utility? Duh.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Merlins mom said:


> A few months ago, my foster dog (5 years old) was adopted by a family...well, really it was the 10 year old daughter. She has cancer and adopting a rescue Golden was her "make a wish". She could have gone swimming with the dolphins, but she wanted to rescue. I pray her cancer stays in remission forever.




That is awesome!!!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

rappwizard said:


> I'll have to figure out how to send the OP's comments to one of the members of my breed club, who adopted an older golden through our related rescue organization and put an UD title on him. Wonder if they bonded at all while they went through Novice, Open and Utility? Duh.


Hey girlfriend! Now you should be busy wringing your hands hoping for LSU to win!!
And if that club member had gotten the dog as a puppy it would have its OTCH, no questions asked. HA HA HA
Or how about Jackie Bowes' Rover. She found him tied to a dock. He was a top obedience dog in his day and the first UDX dog in the state of Florida and I think ever in AKC. 
Anyhow I think we've realized the original post is so far fetched it's laughable.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

FineChina said:


> A dog that you have not raised just does not have that personal bond imo. And you do not know their past.


dude, thou knowest not of what thou speakst. 

According to your post, you've only ever had dogs you raised from pups. You simply lack the experience of developing a strong bond with a rescued animal, so how can you have such a strong opinion on it? (that one-week biting lab doesn't count; he may have had difficult behavioral problems, and I can understand that you could not deal with that, having small kids in the house).

My Pud was a rescue. She had behavioral problems (hyperactivity, zero training). I don't know her history up to age 4, except that she was dumped by at least 5 previous owners. She is my love, my life, my best friend and constant companion. Our bond is profound and deep. She understands everything I say  She listens well, but is not slavishly obedient: so yeah, she might bolt from me if there was a moose at the end of the driveway. That's her exuberant personality. I don't think that would be much different if I had raised her from a pup.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Your wish is Les Miles' Command! Never knew that about Jackie Bowes' golden--neat story! Do you think the OP is a Gator? I hope not. Gives us a bad name--the "theories" behind this thread are laughable. Couldn't have learned that in Gainesville. Lookin' forward to next week's game!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I think the original post was done to inflame us, plain and simple.Obviously the poster has NO idea about canine/human bonding.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> I think the original post was done to inflame us, plain and simple.Obviously the poster has NO idea about canine/human bonding.


Nah. S/he is a brilliant attorney, so surely knows everything about canine/human bonding. An attorney wouldn't do something simply to "inflame"... 

The more times I read the OP, the more I laugh, actually. I could offer hundreds of examples to disprove the hypothesis.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

My first golden, Casey, was adopted as a stray from the humane society for which I worked. He was around a year old at the time. He and I, who had zero obedience experience, earned his CD and CDX in obedience, competing under an ILP. He placed in the top 3 or 4 dogs in just about every show in which we competed, and he actually won at least one competition in Novice A. He was a natural.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> My first golden, Casey, was adopted as a stray from the humane society for which I worked. He was around a year old at the time. He and I, who had zero obedience experience, earned his CD and CDX in obedience, competing under an ILP. He placed in the top 3 or 4 dogs in just about every show in which we competed, and he actually won at least one competition in Novice A. He was a natural.


 
But, did you BOND??? :curtain:


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> But, did you BOND??? :curtain:


Yeah, I kinda think we did!


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

FineChina said:


> That's why I beleive so strongly in raising dogs from puppies. On old dogs being abandoned, I posted below that some of those dogs were let go because they could no longer control their waste functions indoors. That is a very difficult situation for a pet owner and I understand why the owners made decisions in those cases.


I'm sorry, but this part of your post just sickens me. We have a 10-1/2-year-old German Shepherd who recently started having problems controlling her bowel and bladder and began having accidents in the house. You are saying that you would totally understand if we just gave up on her and abdonded her somewhere after having her since she was 8 weeks old??? I'm sorry, but I disagree with that 200%. I would rather clean up her poop every single day than not have her around. I look down on ANYONE who would give up on their old dog just because of incontinence issues or any other issues that can be dealt with. Anyone who would give up on an older dog shouldn't even own any pets. Would you give up on a human family member if they had those problems? Come on. Get real.

I do not understand the point of your post AT ALL. Growing up, ALL and I mean ALL of our dogs were rescues from the shelter and they were already adults when we adopted them. Our family had the STRONGEST bond with each one of them that any person could ever have with a dog. The very first dog I have ever gotten as a puppy from an actual breeder was our German Shepherd and then Tucker. Before that, all of them were pound puppies. Not only do I not understand your point in starting this thread, but I completely disagree with it and, to be honest, am a bit disgusted by it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> Yeah, I kinda think we did!


Well. If you'd gotten him as a PUPPY, you'da been the Obedience Champeen of the Universe!!!!! 

Seriously, I have handled dogs that I've formed amazing bonds with, even though they didn't live with me full time. I've seen dogs that were "Second Hand Rose" dogs that have had every bit as strong, solid, and loving a bond as would have happened if they'd been adopted at 8 weeks of age, if not more so. The op's post is such a bizarre generalization to me that I just cannot begin to understand the foundation of it.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

At least the OP gave us plenty to talk about, and share. I've enjoyed everyone's posts, and experiences, and especially the experiences of owning a rescue. While I don't fundamentally agree with the OP, I've come away from this thread feeling good.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wow! I am forever thankful there is a community of rescuers out there along with the countless foster & adoptive families that see things different than the OP. Out of the 30+ goldens I fostered in the last 2 years, not one had any issue "boding" with me or their "forever" family. Less than 5 had food issues or dog issues (reactive), but all were able to be worked with & their "issues" made manageable. My own goldie who is a rescue is 3.5years & a puppy mill survivor, she still has accidents in the house, but not for one second would I ever consider putting her down. As for our bond, I'm fairly confident I'm the first person she has bonded with & trusted & despite the fact that we've been family for a short 4 mos, she's my girl & I'm her Mom & she knows that through & through.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

We got Tucker just before his first birthday and the bond between all of us is no different than the bond between us and Shadow. Shadow was 9 weeks old when he came to live with us.

When my Cocker Spaniel couldn't "hold" it anymore, but still had quality to her life, we bought her diapers. We had to put her down at 17.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

OUr experiences are important to how we perceive things, so maybe based on your experience what you think makes sense.

My family took in strays and the more starved neglected the animal the more bonded he/she was with us. That includes our beautiful kitty...who definately needed and appreciated her people.

My Dad's "heart" dog was an abandoned year to 1 1/2 old shepherd, so sick she could hardly walk.....my gosh what a wonderful, gentle, obedient and smart dog that was. She lived to be about 13. 

I personally would raise from a puppy if I had small children (and I did)...because of socialization. But that is just what I am comfortable with. Now that my kids are older its not such an issue. I honestly think bonding isn't an age issue.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

I was looking through the OP's other posts.

Most of them are equally as epic as the one in here.



We rescued Maxie. We've had here a little over a month... and I love her as much as I love Mojo. I've only seen one puppy picture of her... and I do know a little of her history... but yeah. We've bonded pretty well, I think.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

yep the old dogs being abandoned is confusing. I am responding to the long thread on this page about the shelter where the discussion was how sad it was that over of the half of the goldens at the shelter were older than 8. The thread creator voiced hjow disgusted they were that people would abandon an old dog--they could undertand giving up on a pup but not an old dog.

My post here was an amplification of a post I made in that thread. In my haste to cut n past my segue was definitely confusing. My two other dogs before lived with us til death from natural causes. 

My point though on the old dogs in the shelter was that if you looked closely of the description of most of those dogs you saw that some of the older dogs had been abandoned b/c they could no longer control their potty functions. I was commenting that I could sadly understand how a long time pet owner could give up a dog that was peeeing/pooping regularly inside.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Oh. Well. THAT'S better.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

FineChina, could you give up an elderly dog that had this problem? 

I think sometimes we forget that we are not ordinary pet owners here. We are the exceptional pet owners and much of what ordinary pet owners do shocks us. I do understand that much.


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## Amynf (Sep 22, 2009)

My rescue Scout was a chain dog and abused and either abandoned or escaped.Once he was captured off the streets he was hospitalized for five weeks while getting heartworm treatments, parasite treatment, neutered, groomed, and awaiting adoption. The shelter director spent about $500 American out of his on pocket on this dog. He was traumatized and scared and untrusting. He snapped at both me and my husband and ran from us and barked at us. We had to corner him in the yard with gloves on to get him after we let him out to pee. He was terrified of being in the house and of any noise, including the baby. We kept him separate from our at the time 13 month old but every night after the baby went to bed we forced him to sit between us on the couch and petted him and talked to him. We wore gloves to he wouldn't break out skin. After six weeks he wagged his tail at us. After 8 weeks he approached us on his own. He has not snapped at us since. 

He has been with us for almost six months now. He is the sweetest little dog. He is loving and snuggly and just happy....all the time. He plays with my 18 month old and I trust him with the baby more than I trust my Golden with him. Scout still shies away from my husband and is terrified of strange men but I wouldn't consider him to have an aggressive bone in his body. He just needed to be loved and cared for and to realize that he could trust. He is very protective of us and is our little guard dog. We could not imagine having him. He was not very adoptable being a little older and ill and aggressive but we feel lucky to have him. 

While there is obviously a special bond when raising a puppy, there is also a very special and unique bond when rehabilitating a rescue and a feeling of gratification and satisfaction that can't be replicated.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

As for the peeing , that do have meds out there to help contol it.. We had a collie turned into out vets for this very problem, they wanted her put down..the vet wouldnt do it and in turned told the owners that he would be turning her over to us , well guess what since she has been on the meds not 1 accident. Also had one of our very own rescue dogs turned back into us at the age 13..why because she peed in the house.. once again put on meds hasnt peed in the house. So I guess when our parents loose control because there old we should just put them down as well.... right


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Guys/Gals

I have read thru many of your responses and I see many of your points/had made me think and here are my clarifications.

First, I'm sorry thata as I reread my post it comes across as too patting myself on the back. Sorry--actually as I was writing I started thinking my old dobie that I miss so much and like a parent that bores other with pics of their kids I started thinking abuout Bree and rambling.

The point of the post--well a forum is to generate discussion and get u to think and certainly the post did that. I started the thread b/c u will find somewhere here in the last few days a question someone posed about which is better adopting an adult dog or a puppy. There was quite a discussion and this was my 2 cents.

I love dogs. This is not an insult or swing at folks that adopt from shelters. Those that do are incredibly selfless. Rather it was for someone questioning which way--my comment on my experience.

And I stand by my sense that a much greater bond develops between a dog raised from small puppyhood than an adopted adult dog.

Moreover and this is very KEY when considering puppy vs shelter. We had our children after the we got the doberman (and also after returning the labrador with aggression). Dogs that show aggression to kids, based on experiences of 4 families we know of personally that had to give up their pets b/c they showed aggression to their kids, is something that no parent can risk.

In our case, knowing we were going to have kids soon made it impractical to keep the labrador.

And I would think--I certainly don't know for sure--that a number of abandoned dogs have personality issues. First, its likely a dog with aggressiveness obedience problems are going to be abandoned. 

Second that someone abandoned the animal in some cases suggests that the person wasn't dedicated to their pet, again meaning there may be more training issues.

Third, the poor pet has experienced a trauma being abandoned. I have no idea whether that is lasting.

Fourth, I am definitely guilty of taking my limited experience and then pronouncing it the law of dogs. Instead, it should this was my experience.

BTW I am a guy and I am sadly sick with cancer. I spend due to illness much time at home which gives me far too much time to spend on internet forums etc. So my posts tend to be epic b/c I have the time.

As I think about this, the problems that one may encounter with a dog makes those who adopt them much more selfless. You all made me realize the other side of the coin.

And last I am still embarrassed as I reread my post that it comes across as bragging. I was really reminiscing and didn't mean it for that. Sorry.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Actually, I'm glad you posted. You generated much discussion and it was a good discussion. I enjoyed it, and I learned from it. Thank you.

Are you going to be okay?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Uh, I've had tons of rescue dogs and fosters, and every single one was a well behaved, bonded (MORE than puppies in some ways), trained, non biting, awesome, special dog.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

If your dog cannot hold it, why the hell would you dump it at a shelter? Who else is going to take a dog that poops and pees indoors out of control because of age? Do the right thing and put your dog to sleep kindly, rather than dumping him in a shelter so someone else can show your dog the last gift of dignity you couldn't.

I think anyone who'd take an old dog to a shelter is a heartless sack of crap. 

If you can't tell, I feel strongly about this!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

FineChina, thank you for the clarification. Though I still disagree with your OP since I have fostered numerous dogs and puppies (as have others here) and have seen them bond with their new owners. Plus I have two adopted dogs who own my heart and they are just as devoted to me. It is nice to see that you realize that your opinion is your opinion (just like my opinion is my opinion) and not actually fact.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> FineChina, could you give up an elderly dog that had this problem?
> 
> I think sometimes we forget that we are not ordinary pet owners here. We are the exceptional pet owners and much of what ordinary pet owners do shocks us. I do understand that much.



Oh please don't tell me we are the exception! I have to believe that most pet owners feel as we do about our pets. I could never and would never drop my older pet off at a shelter.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

buckeyegoldenmom said:


> Oh please don't tell me we are the exception! I have to believe that most pet owners feel as we do about our pets. I could never and would never drop my older pet off at a shelter.


Sadly, we are the exception. Have you ever looked at Craigslist? It is heartwreching....


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I think we might be misunderstanding FineChina. I don't think he's saying he empathizes with people who abandon their elderly dogs. I think he's saying that he undestands that it happens, and often. 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that most pet owners are heartless sacks of crap ... but I would say that many are. Our dogs are lucky, but there's far more dogs out there than there are caring, responsible dog owners like us.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> FineChina, could you give up an elderly dog that had this problem?
> 
> I think sometimes we forget that we are not ordinary pet owners here. We are the exceptional pet owners and much of what ordinary pet owners do shocks us. I do understand that much.


Boy that is tough one. We did keep our dobie for almost a year when she had the peeing in her sleep problems. We were lucky the vet had a cure.

Quite honestly the decision probably would have been to put her to sleep had we not cured it--she was I think 11 at the time. It probably would have been my wife's decision not mine anyway (as I pass the buck):wavey: It bugged me a lot but she found it even more unaccpetable.

But there is another point I think giving the dog to a shelter could be considered more humane than putting it to sleep. There are two sides to most issues and the thread below strongly condemning those who abandoned the older dogs I think gave short shrift to the number of older dogs who could not conrol their potty.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I didn't say most. I said anyone who'd dump a senior at the shelter instead of having it PTS when it's old and sick is a sack of crap. I stand by that statement


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

buckeyegoldenmom said:


> Oh please don't tell me we are the exception! I have to believe that most pet owners feel as we do about our pets.


All I can really go on is what I see around me. I see a lot of things I would never do to my dog, or put my dog through. I am shocked on a daily basis. Maybe it's where I live (rural Pennsylvania).


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> I think we might be misunderstanding FineChina. I don't think he's saying he empathizes with people who abandon their elderly dogs. I think he's saying that he undestands that it happens, and often.
> 
> I wouldn't go so far as to say that most pet owners are heartless sacks of crap ... but I would say that many are. Our dogs are lucky, but there's far more dogs out there than there are caring, responsible dog owners like us.


 
Thanks Jo. In fairness my first post was written too quickly. When I reread I was embarrassed. It came off WAAAY too know it all bragging. Not intended and I have edited.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I didn't say most. I said anyone who'd dump a senior at the shelter instead of having it PTS when it's old and sick is a sack of crap. I stand by that statement


I'm sorry, I didn't mean that I thought you were saying most. I was just saying what I thought. I thought your heartless sack of crap metaphor was good so I used it!


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> Actually, I'm glad you posted. You generated much discussion and it was a good discussion. I enjoyed it, and I learned from it. Thank you.
> 
> Are you going to be okay?


Well its stage 4 kidney cancer. But I am 26 months out and just had a scan that showed I am responding in top 2% of people to my new drug. Less Big C today than 2 years ago so I am fighting it. Thanks for asking.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Top 2%, that's so encouraging. I'm glad. Stay strong, stay here


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> If your dog cannot hold it, why the hell would you dump it at a shelter? Who else is going to take a dog that poops and pees indoors out of control because of age? Do the right thing and put your dog to sleep kindly, rather than dumping him in a shelter so someone else can show your dog the last gift of dignity you couldn't.
> 
> I think anyone who'd take an old dog to a shelter is a heartless sack of crap.
> 
> If you can't tell, I feel strongly about this!


 Im with you on this. *Heartless sack of crap* is being very nice.... I would get banned saying it my way.

My boy came to me as a 2 year old with 3 legs and heart worms. He and I learned a lot about each other in the 5 weeks of downtime during the HW treatment. We have a bond with each other that I would put up against any.

When he becomes old and feeble like me he will have a dignified end.
That's just me though........


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

FineChina, I absolutely agree that there are some dogs in rescue that have severe issue that prevent them from being ideal pets for some families. I would never recommend putting a dog with aggression in a home with children, even if it was thought the dog could be rehabilitated. While some will disagree with me, I believe that some dogs are better off being put down than risking putting them in a situation that could end in tragedy.

However, that does not mean all rescue dogs have these issues. If you go through a rescue group that has their dogs in foster homes, those foster parents are able to see what issues the dogs has and only match the dogs with appropriate homes. While of course there are exceptions, most rescue groups want to make sure that each dog is in the best possible home, and will not want to mislead you about a dog's temperment because that would cause the dog to quickly be back in the same situation.

Most problems in dogs are caused by two reasons: genetics and environment. Problems caused by genetics are going to occur whether it's in the same home as a puppy or not. Problems caused by environment are usually easier to fix than genetic problems, because the environment can be changed, while genetics can not.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I think anyone who'd take an old dog to a shelter is a heartless sack of crap.


Thanks for putting it so succinctly! I agree!


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> If your dog cannot hold it, why the hell would you dump it at a shelter? Who else is going to take a dog that poops and pees indoors out of control because of age? Do the right thing and put your dog to sleep kindly, rather than dumping him in a shelter so someone else can show your dog the last gift of dignity you couldn't.
> 
> I think anyone who'd take an old dog to a shelter is a heartless sack of crap.
> 
> If you can't tell, I feel strongly about this!


Personally I would my dog w such issues to sleep. But someone w/ a lot of land that keeps dogs outdoors could be a workable alternative.

Isn't is odd that euthanasia is considered compassion with pets and illegal immoral for humans.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think euthanasia would be kind for humans too, who request it. 

I also would PTS an indoor, loved pet before I'd have it change homes suddenly at an old age and be stuck outside. It is sad, but a painless death is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a dog or a human.


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

The dogs I have bonded with most closely have ALL been rescue and most have been seniors. They've seen the other side - they are grateful when they land in a good place. Puppies have to try everything, genetically they are usually an unknown and they will push you to the limit. Also, within a few months they grow up and you are in the same place you were if you adopted an adult rescue! Just a few steps further along. With the seniors, you know what you are getting. Especially with a rescue senior who has been fostered.

If I were to believe the op - what a fool am I. A month ago I adopted my bonded senior pair which I had been fostering and could not bear to give up. They had been turned in to the pound to be put down by their "owners". These ten and eight year old dogs had no major problems other than the eight-year-old being blind and partially deaf. These dogs are so loving and so sociable and will do anything they can to please me. It breaks my heart to think they were two hours from scheduled death.

If a dog is ready to move on, is not enjoying life and is in pain, taking them to the pound is the cruelest thing that can be done. Terror should not be the gateway to the golden bridge (and heaven). The owner should have the guts to take them to the vet and be with them as they pass. No excuses.


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## Sliver (Oct 2, 2009)

FineChina said:


> Isn't is odd that euthanasia is considered compassion with pets and illegal immoral for humans.


It's ridiculous and backasswards that suffering people with terminal diseases can't decide when and how to end their own life.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Reading thru the old dogs abandoned posts, my own opinion is that those putting dogs w/waste issues in shelters are not bad people even tho my decision would be to put the dog to sleep.

I defend the shelter placers b/c I see a very legitimate argument for the reverse. Some may find euthanasia as wrong/cruel and think any life is better than death.

That euthanasia for humans is illegal is but one example that the shelter view has logic/defensive argument behind it.

Let's not forget one big reason society permits (even encourages euthanasia for pets) is we have a severe overpopulation iof pets.

We do not adequately fund social services for people who are abandoned/unable to care for themselves. No way will society pay for supporting abandoned animals so that's why put them to sleep.

Sad. But reality.


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

FineChina - I'm not sure you understand what a shelter is. In many, it is a place where an OTI (owner turn in) is never posted for adoption, let alone an older dog with continence issues. This dog will sit in a cold, hard cage for at most three days and then be killed. The euthenasia is not the worst part (unless it is gassing). It is being confused and lonely and in pain and wondering where it's people are. This is like dumping a human hospice patient in a jail cell. And yes I understand that humans are not dogs. But I am also from a state that does have an assisted suicide law that is very rarely used, but is of massive comfort to many terminal people.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

I don't know what the animal shelters around you are like, but in my area owner turn-ins don't always get the 3-7 day waiting period that lost animals do. Especially if they are old or sick. They can be and are, put to sleep the same day they arrive. Especially if the shelter is over crowded....as most are these days. And the rescue groups can't get them all out in time. And you know what? The owners are TOLD this when they drop off the dog. And they still leave them there. 

The owner taking his dog to be put to sleep at the vet is the ONLY humane alternative. It just makes me sick to my stomach to think of the fear these dogs go through. It makes me sick and it makes me cry almost every day.

So yeah, what ACC said to all of them. Heartless sacks of crap!! 



FineChina said:


> Reading thru the old dogs abandoned posts, my own opinion is that those putting dogs w/waste issues in shelters are not bad people even tho my decision would be to put the dog to sleep.
> 
> I defend the shelter placers b/c I see a very legitimate argument for the reverse. Some may find euthanasia as wrong/cruel and think any life is better than death.
> 
> ...


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## Mandarama (Jul 5, 2009)

I can see why your experience would make you think that there's a stronger bond when you raise a dog from puppyhood. But limited anecdotal evidence is...well, limited.  I have raised a pup from 8 weeks old. He was from a herding breed, and he was unpredictably aggressive. Though we did training, socialization, followed the New Skete method, hired a professional, etc., he was always a potential danger. He bit me, he bit my husband, he bit my parents-in-law, etc. We were able to keep him because we instituted very strict pack hierarchy rules and never deviated. When we had children, my sister took him so he would have a safe and loving home. He's now 14 and has been well cared for, but we never could have the trusting & open relationship people want with their dogs. He just was wired for hierarchy and being left alone, and being raised from a young pup didn't change that.

12 weeks ago, thanks to the encouragement of the nice folks here, my family adopted a golden retriever from our local rescue. He was 16 months and didn't get much attention for his early life. After such a short time in our home, he's completely bonded to me and adores my husband and kids. He has worked hard to communicate with us and try to be a good boy, despite not even really having housetraining before. He's doing great in obedience school and he shows us every day how grateful he is for the home he has with us. I can take him anywhere and he loves all people and dogs. I can't believe how much I trust and love him after such a short time...especially since my years with our other dog made me wary of being too physically close to a dog. 

I guess I'm just echoing other's experiences...dogs are all so different, and just like with our human children, there are never guarantees. But the plural of anecdote isn't data, LOL!


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Op, there may not be rescues where you are or you are unaware of them.

Rescues are SO much different than shelters! We actually RESCUE dogs! We have taken in goldens who have been abused, beaten, never been inside a building/house, lived on a chain, dumped and strays. These dogs have been rehabilitated, adopted and loved by a family. We have very rarely had to PTS a golden due to aggression. I can think of twice in all the years I have been with GRRIN. Goldens are the most adaptable dogs. and forgiving. They so rarely become aggressive due to harsh treatment. many times they become anxious or fearful because of it but with patience and love , they learn trust and are now happy loving family members. and so very grateful.

I think if you knew of any rescue goldens you would be amazed and have a change of opinion.

I am so sorry you are ill. Praying for you.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

booklady said:


> FineChina - I'm not sure you understand what a shelter is. In many, it is a place where an OTI (owner turn in) is never posted for adoption, let alone an older dog with continence issues. This dog will sit in a cold, hard cage for at most three days and then be killed. The euthenasia is not the worst part (unless it is gassing). It is being confused and lonely and in pain and wondering where it's people are. This is like dumping a human hospice patient in a jail cell. And yes I understand that humans are not dogs. But I am also from a state that does have an assisted suicide law that is very rarely used, but is of massive comfort to many terminal people.


Of course the "shelter" you describe is not accceptable. That shelter is just euthanasia in cruel form.

But the thread about cruelly dropping off animals was directed at a shelter that obviously fits the rescue type definition. Remember they had a web site with pics and detailed descriptions of these older dogs.

The question in my OP pertains to such a rescue shelter decision.

And I still disagree with those who say such a decision is indefensible ( the thread below that started had many really blasting those who sent their old dogs). There is a valid viewpoint that any alternative is better than death/euthanasia. Remember my personal choice would be euthanasia. But I can't condemn as cruel those that chose the shelter b/c I can see their viewpoint.


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## Sliver (Oct 2, 2009)

FineChina said:


> Of course the "shelter" you describe is not accceptable. That shelter is just euthanasia in cruel form.
> 
> But the thread about cruelly dropping off animals was directed at a shelter that obviously fits the rescue type definition. Remember they had a web site with pics and detailed descriptions of these older dogs.
> 
> ...


That was my thread, and the decision IS indefensible. Having just lost my dog for reasons beyond my control, I can't fathom giving her up by choice, and I would give anything to have her back to live her full life (whether that meant going blind and crapping on the floor in her old age or not). Abandoning a lifelong friend as a matter of convenience when they need you most is one of the most cruel, cold and heartless acts I can imagine.

But apparently, dogs are just decorations to some people. It's sick.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Sliver said:


> But apparently, dogs are just decorations to some people. It's sick.


Silver do u really think that the subset we are talking about here--taking an incontinent older dog to a REAL rescue shelter rather than keeping the pet or most likely killing it viewed their dog in such a cold manner.

I think they wrestled with a very tough choice. And they may be guilty of being too optimistic not realistic is thinking someone will adopt their old pet.

But I don't think in their hearts they were being cruel or treating their animals as decorations.

Making a desperate decision to avoid death I think was done in many cases with a good misguided heart.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

FineChina said:


> Silver do u really think that the subset we are talking about here--taking an incontinent older dog to a REAL rescue shelter rather than keeping the pet or most likely killing it viewed their dog in such a cold manner.
> ......
> But I don't think in their hearts they were being cruel or treating their animals as decorations.


they obviously value their carpets more than their old dog, and carpets are decorations.
In other words, they treat their dog as less than a decoration.

It's easy, really: love is love. When you love your old dog, you don't dump it at the nearest shelter or euthanize it because it pooped on your rug. You employ the third option (one you haven't mentioned at all): you deal with it. You get some wee-wee pads or diapers and roll up the rugs and you clean up after your old friend as long as you feel there is still enough joy in his life to keep him going. And when you feel it's time - not an account on your carpets, but because life just isn't enjoyable any more for your dog - then you put him to sleep.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Pudden said:


> It's easy, really: love is love. When you love your old dog, you don't dump it at the nearest shelter or euthanize it because it pooped on your rug. You employ the third option (one you haven't mentioned at all): you deal with it. You get some wee-wee pads or diapers and roll up the rugs and you clean up after your old friend as long as you feel there is still enough joy in his life to keep him going. And when you feel it's time - not an account on your carpets, but because life just isn't enjoyable any more for your dog - then you put him to sleep.



Couldn't have said it better. I actually kind of got teary-eyed. I can't imagine anything my dogs could do to my house that I would give them away now, much less after they've been in my life for several wonderful years.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pudden said:


> It's easy, really: love is love. When you love your old dog, you don't dump it at the nearest shelter or euthanize it because it pooped on your rug. You employ the third option (one you haven't mentioned at all): you deal with it.


Oh Pudden, your mom is so, so wise.

"Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, or bends with the remover to remove."

If and when my guys get incontinent, they'll be gated into a pee-proofed area of the house, and I'll get on my hands and knees as many times a day as I need to for however long it takes. They won't be put to sleep until they can't enjoy life anymore. I had friends with an ancient lab mix, and they cleaned their kitchen floor three times a day for a year, and that old girl wasn't put to sleep until she couldn't walk anymore. I aspire to return my dog's faithfulness with that kind of commitment. It would be the least I could do for the love and joy they've brought into our lives.

If being incontinent was one of a number of factors that made a dog miserable every day, then it would enter into my decision to euthanize. But by itself? Never. Having wept so many tears for a dog I couldn't bring back, I'd never send one across for becoming inconvenient. And, let's face it, becoming incontinent is an inconvenience, not a problem that's dangerous or otherwise untenable.

I'm with ACC, but I'll do her one better and say that putting a dog in a shelter, rescue, or whatever it makes you feel better to call it, just because he can't hold it anymore, is a violation of the faith a dog puts in his master, and so is putting him to sleep when he becomes inconvenient.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

tippy - may I paraphrase the bard

"Love IS love which alters when it alteration finds, and bends down with the stain remover to remove the stain"


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Pudden said:


> they obviously value their carpets more than their old dog, and carpets are decorations.
> In other words, they treat their dog as less than a decoration.
> 
> It's easy, really: love is love. When you love your old dog, you don't dump it at the nearest shelter or euthanize it because it pooped on your rug. You employ the third option (one you haven't mentioned at all): you deal with it. You get some wee-wee pads or diapers and roll up the rugs and you clean up after your old friend as long as you feel there is still enough joy in his life to keep him going. And when you feel it's time - not an account on your carpets, but because life just isn't enjoyable any more for your dog - then you put him to sleep.


Oh come on. You two are in the far minority who would be willing to keep an animal that almost daily defecates and urinates in your house. And to cast stones on the character of people who would put their pet to sleep when they can no longer control their body functions as uncaring is most judmental. 

And this comes from someone who tolerated an old dog that urinating almost daily in her sleep for almost a year until we found medical solution.

But I'll tell you what had we not solved it we would have put her to sleep. And if someone called me uncaring and treating my dog as no more than a decoration at that time, it would been responded to with a major angry reaction from me. Pretty presumptious and arrogant to condemn someone for that choice imo.

And its more than carpets; its a santary and probable health issue.


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## Trids (Jan 22, 2009)

Jo, I never quite thought of it that way, but I *love* thinking about us that way! hahaha I also happen to agree. I know that I've never before spent more time, effort or put as much thought into being a pet owner than I have in the last year with Max. Is it because he's my heart dog? Because I'm older? Wiser? I don't know, but I'm ****** glad to do it, because I want to give him the happiest, longest possible life that I can.



Jo Ellen said:


> FineChina, could you give up an elderly dog that had this problem?
> 
> I think sometimes we forget that we are not ordinary pet owners here. We are the exceptional pet owners and much of what ordinary pet owners do shocks us. I do understand that much.


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

FineChina - your refer to a "rescue/shelter" in one of your posts. Do you understand that these are two entirely different entities? A shelter is usually a county or city run pound. Period. Space and/or money run out? Dogs and cats die. These people do the best that they can (and bless the caring employees and volunteers at the best of them) but they have to follow the laws of both the state and economics. This is not hospice. Rescues pull from shelters. They receive the dogs with the commitent that these animals will live their lives to the fullest. They housebreak, vet and assess the temperament of the dog and strive to place them in the appropriate home. Most reputable rescues will foster for life if necessary.


I've dealt with seniors for the last fifteen years. I've tried the younger dogs, loved them and still have a wonderful friend (got him at 9 months, youngest dog I've ever had, and he's now going on seven). But I've lived with all of the "problems" you have mentioned with an aging animal and the benefits have far outweighed the costs of carpet and flooring.

I promise I will never allow an animal of mine to be caged and lonely and put to sleep without me by it's side and I know that most people with pets would agree with me if they knew what happens when you try to delude yourself that the shelter will take your 12-year-old, incontinent, overweight, large breed dog and find it a loving family or keep it in elysian fields. Reality is not a pretty picture.


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## Traz (Jan 19, 2009)

I kept mine. She was raised from a puppy, but medical problems can be with rescue dogs or those raised from a puppy. Our girl had seizures that caused her to urinate & sometimes defecate during a seizure. She was blind too & we kept her. Only when she was unable to eat & get up herself, and when keeping her was more for us than her, did we put her to sleep. I think you will find that the majority of the people here feel the same as Puddin or Tippykayak. I do.


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## Trids (Jan 22, 2009)

Okay, now....please tell us how you REALLY feel! LMAO! Sorry, I just couldn't resist! I'm with you 100% - I actually had to make this choice and it was heartbreaking for me. I didn't have her PTS because she couldn't control her bladder anymore, it was a spinal (affecting kidney & bladder) issue and the longer I procrastinated, the more painful it was for her. I can't imagine anyone abandoning their pet at a shelter for this reason....as a responsible pet owner and a loving pet "parent", it was MY responsibility to care for her till the very end, even though the end devastated me. Dump her at a shelter? Hell would have frozen first.

Actually, isn't it ironic that people will bring home a puppy fully expecting that it will have bladder and bowel accidents indoors and yet abandon their beloved 'family members' at a shelter or vet's when it happens at an older age? huh? :doh::doh::doh:




AquaClaraCanines said:


> If your dog cannot hold it, why the hell would you dump it at a shelter? Who else is going to take a dog that poops and pees indoors out of control because of age? Do the right thing and put your dog to sleep kindly, rather than dumping him in a shelter so someone else can show your dog the last gift of dignity you couldn't.
> 
> I think anyone who'd take an old dog to a shelter is a heartless sack of crap.
> 
> If you can't tell, I feel strongly about this!


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## Trids (Jan 22, 2009)

Congratulations! I'm no expert, although I've lost several loved to various forms of cancer, but 26 months sounds incredible to me. Good luck with the new treatment, I hope it continues to help you!



FineChina said:


> Well its stage 4 kidney cancer. But I am 26 months out and just had a scan that showed I am responding in top 2% of people to my new drug. Less Big C today than 2 years ago so I am fighting it. Thanks for asking.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

FineChina said:


> Oh come on. You two are in the far minority who would be willing to keep an animal that almost daily defecates and urinates in your house. .......And its more than carpets; its a santary and probable health issue.


if you just read the responses on this thread, you'll see we're hardly the minority, at least not on this board. In fact, I don't know many people at all who see it like you do; all my friends and acquaintances who have dogs would stick it out with them if their dogs got sick. They're all sentimental weirdos like myself 

But I used to volunteer at a shelter; I've seen those scared old dogs who were dumped because they became an inconvenience. So I know that other people don't see it like myself. 

btw, it's a probable health issue only if you don't clean it up. My Pudden has spay incontinence and pees in the house regularly. I pee-proofed all the doggie beds and the couch by placing water-proof tarp underneath the covers; when she has an accident, I just wash the covers, and bingo. Little more than a minor inconvenience.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

justmejanis said:


> Well I have to chime in here. First, I am really unsure what the point here is. I think it is wonderful you were able to raise your puppies and have that wonderful bond. I opted to rescue. No, I do not know the history of Sampson who I rescued at about a year of age. I do know that he was neglected and kept tied outdoors. That was more than enough for me to want to offer him a much better life than his previous one.
> 
> Bonded? I am absolutely 1000% certain Sampson has no memory of his previous crappy life. He and I could not possibly be more bonded than had I raised him from a pup and I know this with complete certainty. I also know in my heart that somehow Sammy knew he was rescued from a very bad home when he first arrived here. He knew we were offering him something better.
> 
> ...


Great post.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Sliver said:


> Abandoning a lifelong friend as a matter of convenience when they need you most is one of the most cruel, cold and heartless acts I can imagine.
> 
> But apparently, dogs are just decorations to some people. It's sick.


Amen.........


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> Silver do u really think that the subset we are talking about here--taking an incontinent older dog to a REAL rescue shelter rather than keeping the pet or most likely killing it viewed their dog in such a cold manner.
> 
> I think they wrestled with a very tough choice. And they may be guilty of being too optimistic not realistic is thinking someone will adopt their old pet.
> 
> ...


I cannot wrap my head around thinking that dropping an old dog off at a shelter, or _any_where for that matter, is defensable. It's selfish, cruel, and nothing more than pawning your "problem" off on someone else *for those who "optimistically think someone will adopt their old pet". How is "I can't deal with this dog peeing on my carpet. Here's hoping someone else will..." okay?

As a breeder, I pray that I _never _have one of my puppies go to someone who would do this, and God forbid, if there were, that they would honor my contract and the dog would come back to us - incontinence and all. 

I'm sitting here thinking how awful it would have been for our Pointer, Dave, had we done that to him when he began to have problems in the house., and what would have gone through his mind had we taken him to a shelter - ABANDONING him. Carpets are easily cleaned. :no:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Oh yeah... The OP posted this in another thread about his dogs and why they were/are so fantastic:

"They know (knew) that we were there for them and would never harm them. "

So, when the old, incontinent dog who has been with it's family for the better part of its life is sitting in the shelther for a few days before being killed, he's thinking "they are here for me and would never harm me. They'll be back."


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

[Quote:
Originally Posted by *Sliver*  ]
_Abandoning a lifelong friend as a matter of convenience when they need you most is one of the most cruel, cold and heartless acts I can imagine._

_But apparently, dogs are just decorations to some people. It's sick. [/quote]_

this bears repeating .... multiple times

as i said in the other thread - i will never place a higher value on the carpeting or my bedspread than i will on an animal.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FineChina said:


> And its more than carpets; its a santary and probable health issue.


Unless the dog has leptospirosis, in which case it would soon be dead, its urine is sterile.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pudden said:


> tippy - may I paraphrase the bard
> 
> "Love IS love which alters when it alteration finds, and bends down with the stain remover to remove the stain"


Ha! Though some stains become ever-fixèd marks, and you just have to live with an imperfect carpet.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FineChina said:


> Oh come on. You two are in the far minority who would be willing to keep an animal that almost daily defecates and urinates in your house. And to cast stones on the character of people who would put their pet to sleep when they can no longer control their body functions as uncaring is most judmental.


Putting your dog to sleep when he no longer has any quality of life is an act of mercy, and yes, incontinence can be part of that situation, as I said in my initial post. However, in a dog that is otherwise enjoying life, it really is indefensible.

It's not rocket science to do your homework and realize that when you take on a puppy, it will one day be an old dog who has a little trouble controlling his bladder. Hell, I read up on care, feeding, common diseases, and lifespan before we got our _hamster_. Part of the bargain of owning a dog is trying to return the faithfulness he'll give to you every day; it's part of his nature, and it just doesn't seem to be as strong a part of human nature. 

I don't care if it's judgmental to say so: if you can't hold up your end of the bargain, you shouldn't get a dog in the first place. 

PS - my 10-month old puppy just puked in his crate. It was mighty inconvenient (too early in the morning) and seemed a bit unsanitary to boot. I'm just saying. Who buys a dog and expects their carpets will never take a hit?


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Out there in the "real world" unfortunately there are people that would put an animal down do to incontinent, yet othewise the animal is healthy and happy. Some people will have an animal put down for even things less than that. I know of a few times around here a vet might encourage an owner like that to sign over an animal to them instead of putting it down. Not all vets can do that and it puts vets in the rescue business then. However what few they have saved, and can treat, so as to finds homes for them is wonderful. Since we here see our Goldens as more than just property to discard when inconvenienced, I know that is what makes it hard for us to understand how others out there can do this......... ( and I doubt we ever could understand this way of thinking)


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

We kept our Cocker when she had major issues with her bladder. As I said, she happily ran around our home with a pull-up on. Actually, if you know anything about Cockers, they tend to be hard to housetrain and she christened every carpet we ever own for 17 years. My DH used to complain about, I tried to work on it, but she just didn't get it. If she had to go and we weren't home, she went! Thankfully the accidents were not daily. 

Anyone who came into our home didn't even know we had a dog. I think my home was the cleanest on the block because I was always washing floors, steam cleaning carpets. Heck, I also had two young boys to keep up with. We never gave up on her, not ever. When I think back on it, peeing in the house was her only issue. She never went to formal training, but was truly an awesome dog. We all miss her dearly. If she could have lived another 10 years wearing diapers and being happy, we'd have gladly paid the price. Those things are expensive.

Having said all of this, there are people out there that would get rid of a dog like our Cocker Spaniel. In fact, someone did when she was 6 months old.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Putting your dog to sleep when he no longer has any quality of life is an act of mercy, and yes, incontinence can be part of that situation, as I said in my initial post. However, in a dog that is otherwise enjoying life, it really is indefensible.
> 
> It's not rocket science to do your homework and realize that when you take on a puppy, it will one day be an old dog who has a little trouble controlling his bladder. Hell, I read up on care, feeding, common diseases, and lifespan before we got our _hamster_. Part of the bargain of owning a dog is trying to return the faithfulness he'll give to you every day; it's part of his nature, and it just doesn't seem to be as strong a part of human nature.
> 
> ...


ATTENTION BREEDERS:

It is imperative that we add a clause to the sales contract stating that if the dog becomes inconvenient s/he will be returned to us immediately, no matter the age (although I'd thought that it was a given that a breeder would take their dogs back at any time, and in fact, the buyer is _required _to contact the breeder if they can no longer keep the dog). Additionally, when interviewing prospective puppy buyers the question shoud be asked "If your dog becomes inconvenient in his old age, given that s/he is likely soil your carpets, have bad breath, and become stinky, do you think it is okay to drop him/her off at a shelter in the optimistic hope that someone will adopt him/her?" I would also add that if a person either says "Sure, it's okay to do that" (in which case, _obviously, _they are shown the door...) or, when the old dog is brought back to you, the breeder, as a human being with the best interest of the puppies they are responsible for bringing into this whacked out world, has a pass to bitch-slap that person. :slap:

Seriously. IS this now something that I have to really be concerned about? I've screened and screened and screened again anyone buying a puppy, and never felt that I was selling to anything other than a wonderful home. But I would have to believe that the breeders selling to those who dump old dogs who have become inconvenient never thought that the nice people buying their puppy would do that...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kimm said:


> We kept our Cocker when she had major issues with her bladder. As I said, she happily ran around our home with a pull-up on. Actually, if you know anything about Cockers, they tend to be hard to housetrain and she christened every carpet we ever own for 17 years. My DH used to complain about, I tried to work on it, but she just didn't get it. If she had to go and we weren't home, she went! Thankfully the accidents were not daily.
> 
> Anyone who came into our home didn't even know we had a dog. I think my home was the cleanest on the block because I was always washing floors, steam cleaning carpets. Heck, I also had two young boys to keep up with. We never gave up on her, not ever. When I think back on it, peeing in the house was her only issue. She never went to formal training, but was truly an awesome dog. We all miss her dearly. If she could have lived another 10 years wearing diapers and being happy, we'd have gladly paid the price. Those things are expensive.
> 
> Having said all of this, there are people out there that would get rid of a dog like our Cocker Spaniel. In fact, someone did when she was 6 months old.


 
Ditto, here. I've been accused of being a "clean freak", and that did not change because Dave become old and stinky and had accidents, if anything, it intensified. Not a day passes without any of us talking about, and missing, Dave. Or ANY of our wonderful old veterans. I remember well after Dave left us cleaning the house a week of so later and bursting into tears because I'd "washed the last bit of Dave out of our home". I said then that I'd NEVER again complain about his radio-active, wallpaper paste drool on my windows or his stick-in-everything hair again if he were just still with us. 

Gads. How cold can you be.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Seriously. IS this now something that I have to really be concerned about? I've screened and screened and screened again anyone buying a puppy, and never felt that I was selling to anything other than a wonderful home. But I would have to believe that the breeders selling to those who dump old dogs who have become inconvenient never thought that the nice people buying their puppy would do that...


I think anybody who's done enough research to search out an ethical breeder is already less likely to be the kind of person who dumps a dog when it becomes inconvenient.

It's the pet store and the backyard puppies that really have to be worried about being treated like this.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I think anybody who's done enough research to search out an ethical breeder is already less likely to be the kind of person who dumps a dog when it becomes inconvenient.
> 
> It's the pet store and the backyard puppies that really have to be worried about being treated like this.


Well, I'm sure that whoever has sold a puppy to the OP would think that he is not the kind of person who might do that...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Well, I'm sure that whoever has sold a puppy to the OP would think that he is not the kind of person who might do that...


Then maybe it's wise for breeders to focus on making sure that their buyers are fully aware of what a dog's end of life can realistically be like.

Are you prepared, fifteen years from now, to have a smelly, lumpy, limpy, half-blind, possibly incontinent, potentially irritable dog? If not, you're not ready.


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## Mandarama (Jul 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Ha! Though some stains become ever-fixèd marks, and you just have to live with an imperfect carpet.


Heehee, tippy! Shakespeare reference FTW! :bowrofl:


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

FineChina said:


> Oh come on. You two are in the far minority who would be willing to keep an animal that almost daily defecates and urinates in your house. And to cast stones on the character of people who would put their pet to sleep when they can no longer control their body functions as uncaring is most judmental.
> 
> And this comes from someone who tolerated an old dog that urinating almost daily in her sleep for almost a year until we found medical solution.
> 
> ...



You two? Add me, and countless others not just on this forum either. My fourteen year old Border Collie has a slight problem with urine leakage. When we first noticed, off to the vet for tests and medication. There are treatments available. He still has a bit of a leak. I wash his bedding frequently. BIG DEAL. It is hardly a health issue. My floors are mopped daily and always clean and he does not need to be confined. He is still a happy active dog. If it becomes a bigger problem there are pads we will use. Again, BIG DEAL. This is a minor adjustment we make for a loyal and faithful friend. As long as he remains happy and healthy it will never impact him remaining in our home, EVER. Sunka will stay with us until his health fails and he no longer has quality of life. This remains the same with all of our dogs. Regardless of bowel or bladder issues that are very easily dealt with.

Taking a dog to a pound, shelter, or even surrendering to a rescue is a sad testament to your devotion to that dog. They spend their lifetime loving you. To turn them away because they suddenly become inconvenient in their later years is inexcusable. The fear and confusion they must feel is beyond heartbreaking. The sense of abandonment after years of selfless devotion...I am sorry, THERE IS NO EXCUSE.

You may understand, I never will. We owe our dogs more, period.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I still think we're misunderstanding the OP. I believe he has said he has not turned over his elderly dog(s) for this reason, and I also believe he said he wouldn't. I'll go back and read again.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

justmejanis said:


> You two? Add me, and countless others not just on this forum either. My fourteen year old Border Collie has a slight problem with urine leakage. When we first noticed, off to the vet for tests and medication. There are treatments available. He still has a bit of a leak. I wash his bedding frequently. BIG DEAL. It is hardly a health issue. My floors are mopped daily and always clean and he does not need to be confined. He is still a happy active dog. If it becomes a bigger problem there are pads we will use. Again, BIG DEAL. This is a minor adjustment we make for a loyal and faithful friend. As long as he remains happy and healthy it will never impact him remaining in our home, EVER. Sunka will stay with us until his health fails and he no longer has quality of life. This remains the same with all of our dogs. Regardless of bowel or bladder issues that are very easily dealt with.
> 
> Taking a dog to a pound, shelter, or even surrendering to a rescue is a sad testament to your devotion to that dog. They spend their lifetime loving you. To turn them away because they suddenly become inconvenient in their later years is inexcusable. The fear and confusion they must feel is beyond heartbreaking. The sense of abandonment after years of selfless devotion...I am sorry, THERE IS NO EXCUSE.
> 
> You may understand, I never will. We owe our dogs more, period.


Add me to, I'm in total agreement with you Janis.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

My niece's Bailey is a Pet Store Golden. He has accidents in their house, but never mine. He still lives with them and if he ever needs a home, he has one here. Even people who buy pet store pups will keep their dogs. Sparky, our Cocker Spaniel, was a pet store pup. My BIL and SIL gave her to us.

Gawd, I lost it when a senior rescue dog on this forum was brought to the shelter. I freaked! I actually yelled at the person, for which I'm still sorry. Things worked out well in the end, but for him to spend even 5 minutes in a shelter killed me.


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

Kimm said:


> We kept our Cocker when she had major issues with her bladder. As I said, she happily ran around our home with a pull-up on. Actually, if you know anything about Cockers, they tend to be hard to housetrain and she christened every carpet we ever own for 17 years. My DH used to complain about, I tried to work on it, but she just didn't get it. If she had to go and we weren't home, she went! Thankfully the accidents were not daily.
> 
> Anyone who came into our home didn't even know we had a dog. I think my home was the cleanest on the block because I was always washing floors, steam cleaning carpets. Heck, I also had two young boys to keep up with. We never gave up on her, not ever. When I think back on it, peeing in the house was her only issue. She never went to formal training, but was truly an awesome dog. We all miss her dearly. If she could have lived another 10 years wearing diapers and being happy, we'd have gladly paid the price. Those things are expensive.
> 
> Having said all of this, there are people out there that would get rid of a dog like our Cocker Spaniel. In fact, someone did when she was 6 months old.


Kim, you have talked about her in many, many threads over the years. It is obvious how much a part of her life she was. The diapering and cleaning is truly a testament of your love and dedication to her. This is something all dog lovers do understand.

She was lucky to have you too, you know!


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## beccacc31 (Aug 17, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Oh yeah... The OP posted this in another thread about his dogs and why they were/are so fantastic:
> 
> "They know (knew) that we were there for them and would never harm them. "
> 
> So, when the old, incontinent dog who has been with it's family for the better part of its life is sitting in the shelther for a few days before being killed, he's thinking "they are here for me and would never harm me. They'll be back."


 Just reading this is heart breaking, I can't imagine the poor dog living it!
There should be a law.... If you think less of your pet because it's called a pet then you should not legally be allowed to have one. 

I will never forget the conext of what Kevin said to me the night that Mitchell passed away on OUR den floor. I made a comment like... He was such a lucky dog, we gave him such a good life..... Kevin very quickly responded with something along the lines of how deserving he was and what he gave us. I actually felt guilty for what I had said and that I was being selfish. Mitchell was deserving, he gave so much. The thought of him being sent anywhere, I just can't comprehend. There is nothing that we would not have done for him and there is nothing that he would not have done for us, including the fact that he chose to pass at home with us by his side and not making us make the tough PTS decision.

Mommy loves you Bud! I miss you so much...

Ok I'm done rambling....


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

I work with a rescue, and senior dogs are among our most popular for adoption. One of our members has had as many as 9 senior dogs. She is now down to 7.

My first puppy came from a breeder, my second one I adopted at approximately 18 months of age, Hailey is 3 y/o and Mitch we believe is somewhere around that age, and is special needs. I am adopting a 3rd dog who arriving on 10/10, who is also special needs, with possible hearing 
issues that we will know more about once I assess her, along with my vet. 
Will I put humanely euthanize her if she is deaf? Hell no! I have already made arraignments to have her examined, and micro chipped immediately.It's called being prepared for any contingency. 

Most dogs these days are abandoned because of ignorance, with the economy, the second most popular reason, and the no longer a cute puppy excuse the third.

I think most people who rescue, better still I will speak for just me... When I took these dogs in, be it Hailey the breeder dog, Mitchell the rescue, or the new dog, I made a pledge to each and every one of them, that they will get the best care possible in this world, all the love that we can offer them, along with what ever training is necessary to make the dog and family happy, I also promised my dogs that when the time comes and the pain is unbearable, and uncontrollable and their quality of life is compromised I will help them cross the bridge. And I will make the same pledge to my new dog when she arrives.

Does this make sense? Who knows, but I think those who are true dog lovers and those who have rescued dogs regardless of age or physical condition will understand and agree.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> Add me to, I'm in total agreement with you Janis.


 
Me three !!!! There are many of us who treasure seniors no matter their probs, and also the special needs kids..... and even seek them out. They are God's blessed creatures and deserve the love and faithfulness that their young, healthy cousins get. I know that our home will always have a senior or special needs pupper.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I know, that's why I don't want to keep my foster. She's the PERFECT dog. Too easy. She can find a home with no problem. I like the wackos! lol

My senior is 12 and he is in perfect health like a two year old dog. However, as long as he is happy, I would do ANYTHING to keep him with me, including clean up pee. I would NEVER EVER banish him to the yard. He would die of sorrow. And he would die in a shelter. He is a sensitive soul, used to the finest comforts. I won't even board him for any reason.


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## Sliver (Oct 2, 2009)

beccacc31 said:


> Just reading this is heart breaking, I can't imagine the poor dog living it!
> There should be a law.... If you think less of your pet because it's called a pet then you should not legally be allowed to have one.


My step dad grew up on a farm, where he comes from all animals are beasts and they don't stick around long, as they're shipped off to slaughter or taken by sickness or the elements. Animals of any kind can never come into the house, it is out of the question, that's what barns are for.

He's certainly not cruel or heartless, I've seen him throw leftovers to strays, and he's perfectly cordial to my dogs while visiting, but I don't think he's ever loved an animal and he may not be capable due to his upbringing.

I can understand this, although I think he's missed out on one of the best things in life, I can understand how it happens and I don't fault him. But you know what? He doesn't own pets! Why would he?

But apparently there are some people who feel like him, who for some reason DO go out and obtain pets, and then leave them chained to trees or locked in kennels for their whole lives. That is what is so hard to comprehend.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I remember well after Dave left us cleaning the house a week of so later and bursting into tears because I'd "washed the last bit of Dave out of our home". I said then that I'd NEVER again complain about his radio-active, wallpaper paste drool on my windows or his stick-in-everything hair again if he were just still with us.


I remember your post on this, Laura. And think of it everytime I get the Windex bottle out. I will purposely leave a print or two now 



tippykayak said:


> Are you prepared, fifteen years from now, to have a smelly, lumpy, limpy, half-blind, possibly incontinent, potentially irritable dog? If not, you're not ready.


Adding: ...accompanied by the ever wagging tail, albeit slighter, now. An upturned frosty loving face still hungering for your touch, and clouded eyes that watch for your return always....


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

You should see the back windows of my van...... FULL of, not dog smudges.... it's NOSE ART!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> You should see the back windows of my van...... FULL of, not dog smudges.... it's NOSE ART!!!


Mine are crated in the van, but we probably don't want to revisit the animals riding loose thing...


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Mine are crated in the van, but we probably don't want to revisit the animals riding loose thing...


 
They're not loose... they're on their harness, tethered to the thingies on the floor.... instead of the seat belts.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> They're not loose... they're on their harness, tethered to the thingies on the floor.... instead of the seat belts.


Whew. Good save.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

moverking said:


> I remember your post on this, Laura. And think of it everytime I get the Windex bottle out. I will purposely leave a print or two now
> 
> 
> 
> Adding: ...accompanied by the ever wagging tail, albeit slighter, now. An upturned frosty loving face still hungering for your touch, and clouded eyes that watch for your return always....


Yeah. You tell me how I could've dumped Dave...
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=22230&highlight=Dave


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

When my Toby was 15, he developed bowel control problems and frequently I would get up in the morning to find poop on the floor near where he was sleeping. He would never deliberately relieve himself in the house, so I know this happened as he slept. Did I tire of picking up dog poop first thing in the morning? Absolutely. Would I have dumped him at a shelter because of it? No way in hell. I finally had him euthanized only after his arthritic hips became so painful that he refused to get up, despite taking the maximum dose of pain meds every day.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Whew. Good save.


 
DH told me those "thingies" are called cargo hooks. :doh: The harness that we used is no longer made but was safety tested and the one recommended by Toyota.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Are you prepared, fifteen years from now, to have a smelly, lumpy, limpy, half-blind, possibly incontinent, potentially irritable dog? If not, you're not ready.


I could not care less how lumpy and incontinent my dogs are at the age of 15. I would just be thrilled to have them with me at that age.

My elderly Jack russell had Cushings and towardsthe end had many accidents inside, she simply couldn't hold it. I put down puppy pads and bought a carpet washer. 
She even peed on my mum's bed a few times when she was asleep. Annoying having to change the sheets at 2:00 in the morning? Hell yes but it wasn't Lucky's fault.

She was a wonderful companion her whole life and gave me so much and getting rid of her for something as trivial as a carpet would never have crossed my mind.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

I just saw this thread, and it reminded me of another one I just posted. 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=65255

Now THAT should be the code of honor dog owners live by. Getting rid of a dog who has bowel problems?! Are you kidding me?? I haven't read the entire thread, but I wonder if the OP has children. And if those children know about these feelings. If so, sounds to me like your butt (pun entirely intended) will be in a nursing home when you're old and having problems.


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

Spencer was only a couple of months past five when I lost him to cancer. I cannot tell you how happy I would be to see him grow old. I would cheerfully clean up anything he deposited on my floors. He has been gone four years now and the pain is still so intense sometimes. He would be nine now and what I wouldn't give to see that beautiful face again. Even four years later I still looks for traces of him here. 

I know what I lost, and I know what I would do for him were I lucky enough to still have him in my life.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

I have a smelly, lumpy, half blind, half deaf and sometimes incontinent and limpy (on medication) but never grumpy beautiful 11 year old Jade and beleive me if she poops in the house you know it and if anyone suggested to me to put her in a rescue or have her pts they wouldn't be in my life any longer.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

The OP is truly one of the oddest I've ever read here. It really disturbs me.


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## Meggie'sMom (Dec 24, 2007)

> The OP is truly one of the oddest I've ever read here. It really disturbs me.


I agree. And I am no longer sad and speechless by his posts, I am horrified.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Lol, I love how this whole thread is so relevant to what's going on with me and Flora right now, even though she's only a puppy and is just having a reaction to her medications. We just spent the morning vacuuming and cleaning up bits of poop off of the floor, and I've already carefully cleaned her bottom several times today after she had some accidents. In fact... *sniff sniff* ... I think I need to go clean her up again!

(Don't worry though, she's not going anywhere. )


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> Lol, I love how this whole thread is so relevant to what's going on with me and Flora right now, even though she's only a puppy and is just having a reaction to her medications. We just spent the morning vacuuming and cleaning up bits of poop off of the floor, and I've already carefully cleaned her bottom several times today after she had some accidents. In fact... *sniff sniff* ... I think I need to go clean her up again!
> 
> (Don't worry though, she's not going anywhere. )


Poor Flora, hope she gets to feeling better very soon!

Yes, we all must remember we clean up after our dogs from puppyhood (those who have them as puppies) through to the end. Puppies are very messy! From start to end, it all is merely part of the normal cycle of their lives. Sometimes mine even have accidents in the middle. Occasional upset tummies, diarrhea that never make it outside. Never pleasant, but I break out the cleaning supplies!


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

justmejanis said:


> Poor Flora, hope she gets to feeling better very soon!
> 
> Yes, we all must remember we clean up after our dogs from puppyhood (those who have them as puppies) through to the end. Puppies are very messy! From start to end, it all is merely part of the normal cycle of their lives. Sometimes mine even have accidents in the middle. Occasional upset tummies, diarrhea that never make it outside. Never pleasant, but I break out the cleaning supplies!



I just had to clean up a mess the other day actually. The whole house is wood flooring, so where does the dog decide to make a mess? The area rug! :doh:

The funny/gross part of this story is... I couldn't even tell if it was throw up or poop!! It was mostly SOCK (so I know who the culprit was.. *ahem* DILLON)

I punished him by giving him a little extra dinner, in case he had thrown up and was extra hungry.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

honeysmum said:


> I have a smelly, lumpy, half blind, half deaf and sometimes incontinent and limpy (on medication) but never grumpy beautiful 11 year old Jade and beleive me if she poops in the house you know it and if anyone suggested to me to put her in a rescue or have her pts they wouldn't be in my life any longer.


aaw shucks. Is Jade the great dane in your pix? If so, 11 yrs is a real old age for a dane, isn't it? Give her a big sloppy smooch from me  (and the other ones too)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Nothing was so beautiful to me than my Lyric's white face at just shy of 16 years old. She never did become incontinent, and simply left us peacefully. I wish I would have had her longer, whether she was incontinent or not.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

I hope I'm lucky enough to see all my dogs get a beautiful snow angel face.


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## Kelmel (Apr 7, 2009)

I agree this thread is particularly odd. The OP has defined the way in which a bond can be formed to only those dogs raised from puppyhood, and then put limits on that bond to not include messing up the carpet. What a sad world this would be if we all thought that way. Personally, I admire and thank those who adopt rescue dogs and especially the seniors. In the end, the OP may have nicer carpet, but does that really matter?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

honeysmum said:


> I have a smelly, lumpy, half blind, half deaf and sometimes incontinent and limpy (on medication) but never grumpy beautiful 11 year old Jade and beleive me if she poops in the house you know it and if anyone suggested to me to put her in a rescue or have her pts they wouldn't be in my life any longer.


 
Jade is just spectacularly beautiful, and particularly amazing is that she is 11 years old! This is nearly unheard of for a Dane, and is a testament to how well cared for and loved she is, every lump and bump on her. God love her!


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> ATTENTION BREEDERS:
> 
> It is imperative that we add a clause to the sales contract stating that if the dog becomes inconvenient s/he will be returned to us immediately, no matter the age (although I'd thought that it was a given that a breeder would take their dogs back at any time, and in fact, the buyer is _required _to contact the breeder if they can no longer keep the dog). Additionally, when interviewing prospective puppy buyers the question shoud be asked "If your dog becomes inconvenient in his old age, given that s/he is likely soil your carpets, have bad breath, and become stinky, do you think it is okay to drop him/her off at a shelter in the optimistic hope that someone will adopt him/her?" I would also add that if a person either says "Sure, it's okay to do that" (in which case, _obviously, _they are shown the door...) or, when the old dog is brought back to you, the breeder, as a human being with the best interest of the puppies they are responsible for bringing into this whacked out world, has a pass to bitch-slap that person. :slap:
> 
> Seriously. IS this now something that I have to really be concerned about? I've screened and screened and screened again anyone buying a puppy, and never felt that I was selling to anything other than a wonderful home. But I would have to believe that the breeders selling to those who dump old dogs who have become inconvenient never thought that the nice people buying their puppy would do that...


 
I have not finished reading all the posts here but one thing from page 10-11 alone is that the vast majority imo of people posting are zealots and on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to their dedication to pets.

I'm pretty certain if you were poll owners of indoor dogs what they would do with dog that daily has incontinence problems (let's not change the topic by talking about the once a week or so issue), the majority would put them down or try to find another home for them. Sorry so many of you find it prohibitively cruel that people facing that problem placed their dog in a genuine rescue shelter (how btw is that different than returning to the breeder or to the vet). People abandon pets for far lesser inconvieniences.

You may think it cruel and unfair. Fair enough. But life's a bitch (pun intended) and all sorts of unfair and cruel things happen in reality. If the extreme dog lovers (and I applaud you for that) want to place their head in the sand and act like this is not the reality for a lot of prospective pet owners, so be it.

One other flip and unintended cruel concequence to this breeder's new screening criteria. I s'pose top end pure bred golden breeders have no trouble placing dogs. But that is the exception no the rule for dogs in general. We all know that lots of dogs--from unwanted mutt litters to adolescent dogs to middle age and older dogs need adopting. By adding this "new requirement" for adopting a dog, the inintended consequence may be reducing even further the scarcity of homes compared to the dog population without a home.

In sum, methinks that many of the responders, while good intentioned, are not facing the cruel reality of the severe overpopulation of dogs. 

I applaud the breeder above that would take back an incontinent dog. B4 you label me as cruel (and some of the responses here have detriorated into name calling), remember my own experience was that I kept an incontinent dobie for a year before we founda medical cure.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Pudden said:


> aaw shucks. Is Jade the great dane in your pix? If so, 11 yrs is a real old age for a dane, isn't it? Give her a big sloppy smooch from me  (and the other ones too)


Yes thats my old girl, in her younger days I might add LOL after suffering bloat last year and a 4 hour op, that as long as she is free from pain and has quality of life I dont care about the accidents when they happen.
But must say dont know if you would want a sloppy smooch back:uhoh:


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Jade is just spectacularly beautiful, and particularly amazing is that she is 11 years old! This is nearly unheard of for a Dane, and is a testament to how well cared for and loved she is, every lump and bump on her. God love her!


Thank you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FineChina said:


> I'm pretty certain if you were poll owners of indoor dogs what they would do with dog that daily has incontinence problems (let's not change the topic by talking about the once a week or so issue), the majority would put them down or try to find another home for them.


Nobody argued that the general majority of pet owners out there wouldn't behave in that fashion. We simply said it wasn't right.




FineChina said:


> You may think it cruel and unfair. Fair enough. But life's a bitch (pun intended) and all sorts of unfair and cruel things happen in reality. If the extreme dog lovers (and I applaud you for that) want to place their head in the sand and act like this is not the reality for a lot of prospective pet owners, so be it.


"Life's a bitch" is your excuse for defending the mistreatment of a dog? Life's already enough of a bitch without our excusing people for bailing on their responsibilities. The simple reality is that dogs don't deserve to be abandoned when they become inconvenient.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

So if they throw there dogs away because there old and cant control there bladders etc, I hate to see what they would do with there own human parents!!! I had a dog that had this problem.... at the age of 4.. That's not old... did I throw her away or have her put to sleep um NO.... I ripped up all the carpet in my house and tiled it and let the cleaning supplies fly!


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> I still think we're misunderstanding the OP. I believe he has said he has not turned over his elderly dog(s) for this reason, and I also believe he said he wouldn't. I'll go back and read again.


You got it. I am just saying I understand those who would. And I did say I think if it became a daily problem that could not be solved over a long period of trying (I never thought about diapers I think we would try that), my guess is that we make the choice to put the dog down. But who knows b/c when I was ACTUALLY faced with that, my wife and I steadfastly refused and put up with daily peeing for a year (in my bed even--loved that dog so much could not trun her down when she would beg to get under the covers). Fortunately we found a cure after a year so we did not have to make that choice.

But I disagree that I also don't condemn others. I also will state I love my current dog--but not at all like a human. The bond is not the same. So I am not as zealous as some here. I expect to be flamed b/c many here who lectured me appropriately enought on respecting both sides of the issue on adopting older vs puppy age dogs, seem very quickly to label anyone that does not exhibit undying dedication and love to a dog no matter the incovenience as cruel and despicable. 

Talk about being one sided in an opinion. And as said above, iimpose such zealous I will keep my old dog no matter what requirements and the result will be you will shrink the number of available pet owners. Sign such a contract? Some will pass and that my dog loving friends means one less dog in a home (often a very young one) condemned to euthanasia by animal control.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> Sorry so many of you find it prohibitively cruel that people facing that problem placed their dog in a genuine rescue shelter (how btw is that different than returning to the breeder or to the vet). People abandon pets for far lesser inconvieniences.
> 
> You may think it cruel and unfair. Fair enough. But life's a bitch (pun intended) and all sorts of unfair and cruel things happen in reality. If the extreme dog lovers (and I applaud you for that) want to place their head in the sand and act like this is not the reality for a lot of prospective pet owners, so be it.
> 
> ...


I think you are purposely avoiding the fact that there are very, very few "rescue shelters" as you call them. Most rescues use foster homes and most shelters are run by the city/county. And they deal with the severe overpopulation of dogs daily, hourly and by the minute (by the way, the cat overpopulation is even worse). Due to space, they euth owner surrenders immediately most of the time, because they have laws governing the amount of time they must hold a stray to allow the owners to reclaim them.

You did mention that you would have had your dog put to sleep (much kinder than dumping her at the shelter to be euthed all alone, while she was in a scary, unfamiliar environment) if you had not found a medicine that helped. You also mentioned what an inconvenience it was and how much your wife especially, though you too, were aggravated by the messes she made.

We are not zealots. Many of us work in rescue or have volunteered at shelters. How you feel like you can tell US what the pet overpopulation problem is or act like we have no clue is unbelievable! If you are going to throw stones, can you at least list your rescue or shelter experience? Maybe then we could better understand why you keep throwing out this whole pet overpopulation issue as a good reason to dump a senior, incontinent dog at a shelter........


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> I have not finished reading all the posts here but one thing from page 10-11 alone is that the vast majority imo of people posting are zealots and on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to their dedication to pets.
> 
> I'm pretty certain if you were poll owners of indoor dogs what they would do with dog that daily has incontinence problems (let's not change the topic by talking about the once a week or so issue), the majority would put them down or try to find another home for them. Sorry so many of you find it prohibitively cruel that people facing that problem placed their dog in a genuine rescue shelter (how btw is that different than returning to the breeder or to the vet). People abandon pets for far lesser inconvieniences.
> 
> ...


And here, after 2 glasses of wine, I will say - YOU are CLUELESS. 
"Zealots"????? Hardly. NO WAY would a majority dump an incontinent senior who had been a loyal, loving family member for so many years. The addition of a dog into a family dictates that you are COMMITTED to that animal and his well being, needs, and happiness. Period. And any breeder worthy of the title would, and SHOULD, take back ANY dog that they were responsible for bringing into this world. 

You can back peddle and justify all that you want to, but you aren't selling me.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Nobody argued that the general majority of pet owners out there wouldn't behave in that fashion. We simply said it wasn't right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair enough tippykak. The issue I have is labelling that general majority as cruel etc. 

I don't think there is that much disagreement between my personal feelings and those here.

On "Life's a bitch". Of course they don't deserve that fate. Its unfair. But that is REALITY. it is REALITY that so many many dogs are killed because there are not homes for them.

And the said REALITY is that narrowing the pool of eligible pet owners to only those who sign agreements promising such dedication will have UNINTENDED consequence of dissuading or changing the minds of prospective dog owners. And the sad REALITY is that for every pet not adopted, that is another one euthanized. Better to have a loving owner until a dog very old and incontinent than a person being talked/contracted out of taking on a dog b/c they won't agree to keep the dog no matter what. Again the result of that policy--one less adopted dog, one more euthanized dog. Life is a bitch. But sticking our heads in the sand is not being realistic.


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## Meggie'sMom (Dec 24, 2007)

Apparently I am a zealot! Cool! I think I always wanted to be a zealot about something - and now I am. I will wear this with pride.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

If you came here looking for "normal" pet owners you didn't come to the right place, I'm sorry to say. There are forum members here who have taken out a second mortgage on their homes to help their dogs. This just isn't the appropriate place to spout off about what you believe the masses do. Because the masses around here would NEVER abandoned a dog in need. In fact, a huge number of our members are the ones working in the shelters and rescues taking care of dogs that were dumped because they had ignorant, inconsiderate, inhumane owners.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

I am not talking about a once a week issue we have daily issues with both wee and poop I don't class myself as a zealot nor any of the other posters just loving compassionate human beings that want to do right for their pups in later life.
Put tarpaulins with blankets on top if people worry about the carpets that's what I do in Jades favorite rooms no problem cleaning up then.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Romeo said:


> The OP is truly one of the oddest I've ever read here. It really disturbs me.


You and the two other posters that flame me personally by calling me odd. Uh, did you actually ever learn to read? Show me where I said I dumped/abandoned an old incontinent dog.

Show me why it is "odd" to relay my personal experience and feeling that raising a dog from puppyhood under the circumstances that we faced--knowing small children would be present and a dog showing aggression would have to be given up? Uh how does that label me odd. Explain.

***? Who are you to be so presumptious to judge me.

One very important purpose of an internet forum. Its to make people think. I , the person you call so odd, made a post that has over 1500 people read it and THINK about these issues in 24 hours with 16 pages of comments. I am sorry to do such an "odd" disservice that "disturbs" you as though I am some creepy animal abuser. Geez lighten up.

In the future, I guess, all posts on this site should consist of here are the cute cuddly things my dog does.

If you raise the issue that many people abandon dogs for reasons that others consider petty, that makes you an odd disturbed person.

If you relay your experience in an area that many prospective dog owners consider--get a puppy or an older dog, that makes you add and disturbing. Hmm. I guess that is not a legitimate issue and anyone relaying their experience should be thrown in an asylum. I got it. Bring the strait jacket.

Fair enough at least I can read instead of completely failing to comprehend the original and subsequent posts.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

*zeal⋅ot*
1.a person who shows zeal.
2.an excessively zealous person; fanatic.


That would be me :


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> You and the two other posters that flame me personally by calling me odd. Uh, did you actually ever learn to read? Show me where I said I dumped/abandoned an old incontinent dog.
> 
> Show me why it is "odd" to relay my personal experience and feeling that raising a dog from puppyhood under the circumstances that we faced--knowing small children would be present and a dog showing aggression would have to be given up? Uh how does that label me odd. Explain.
> 
> ...


So you posted this just to get a big response? That is normally called trolling. It sounds like you are proud of the number of "hits" you have gotten on this thread and the fact that you have 16+ pages of responses. 

You did not post this as an opinion, which is why you had such a strong response. You stated it as fact, based on a total of 4 dogs that you have had (one of which you had less than a week) in your adult life. That's not exactly a lot of experience to draw on. Many of us have fostered or raised dozens of dogs or puppies. I think the majority have a bit more dog/puppy raising experience than you do and have the right to disagree with you on your proclamations.


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

Certainly an odd thread and OP. Dropping my Abbert or Finny boy at a shelter? Ever, ever? Good lord, not a possibility. Just as much poop and pee with a puppy as an oldster. I only pray that they can stay with me that long. And spouting puppies will bond more than rescues? Totally BS .


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

fostermom said:


> So you posted this just to get a big response? That is normally called trolling. It sounds like you are proud of the number of "hits" you have gotten on this thread and the fact that you have 16+ pages of responses.
> 
> You stated it as fact, based on a total of 4 dogs that you have had (one of which you had less than a week) in your adult life. That's not exactly a lot of experience to draw on. Many of us have fostered or raised dozens of dogs or puppies. I think the majority have a bit more dog/puppy raising experience than you do and have the right to disagree with you on your proclamations.


As I siad you do not read or comprehend.

You claim: "You did not post this as an opinion, which is why you had such a strong response."

The second sentence in a stand alone paragraph of my OP states:

"This is my experience only not the be all end all."

Towards the end of OP I say:

"But that is just my experience. Others who have adopted older dogs may have their own."

You claim that I am trolling, defined as:

trolling
Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can. 

see http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trolling

I state my experience and in now way attack someone personally and it generates 16 pages of commentary, with the exception of few like, all on the issue. You on the other hand call me "odd" and "disturbing". Hmmm who is "trolling"?

If you are really interested in the underlying issue instead of personally insulting you should review this interesting web site, then you will begin to understand:

http://isgwww.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/graphik/pub/files/Goetze_2001_AHF.pdf


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I get puppies mainly because I LOVE PUPPIES!!! My dogs are trained, members of our family. I support rescues 100%, but now that I want performance dogs (agility etc) I need to know their structure is sound and I want to start my training early. I LOVE spending time with my dogs, training, competing, playing. They love to work for me, and I let them know I love watching them do so.

That being said I wish I were in a position to rescue senior dogs. I would LOVE to be able to provide the last home for a dog to live out their days in comfort and care. I don't have the space now, but that is a hope for me someday. 

My dogs grow old. My last lab died just shy of 15 1/2, she was not incontinent but she had no muscle control or feeling in her back side. She would be walking anywhere (or sometimes sound asleep) and things would drop out. I never ONCE considered calling it the end because of this issue. I did worry everyday that I was keeping her around for us, my vet friend kept assuring us we would know when it was time, and we did. She was relatively comfortable, I am sure she had some geriatric aches and pains, but she was not heavily medicated, right up to the end. We had one rough night, called my friend in the AM and on the way to visit her, Shadow passed away. 

I worry now about Max. However I plan to keep her with me as long as possible. I am not ready to let go just yet despite the fact she has cancer. She is doing fine so far too. 

Yes there are people out there who see dogs as commodities. I know some. I do think they are not the majority. I think the majority see the dogs as an extension of their family if not a family member, and keep them around as long as possible. I do know there are many people who just can not justify the big vet bills that can come from an ailing dog. So sometimes they release the dog to the vet, or choose to put the dog to sleep. Knowing what I have paid in vet bills, I am not sure I can be angry for someone under those circumstances. Yes they took the dog on to take care of them, but THOUSANDS of dollars can back anyone off. 

I know there are a lot of rescues out there, young and old. Some are sick and were turned over because the family chose not to care for them. I don't think they did the wrong thing. They did give the dog a chance. You can not judge people because you do not know their situation. Truly bad dog owners, are just that. The dogs are not properly cared for, fed, and when something happens, the dog is "thrown away". Most won't pay a vet for that though. I think this scenario is a rarity even in today's disposable world.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

FineChina said:


> I'm pretty certain if you were poll owners of indoor dogs what they would do with dog that daily has incontinence problems (let's not change the topic by talking about the once a week or so issue), the majority would put them down or try to find another home for them. Sorry so many of you find it prohibitively cruel that people facing that problem placed their dog in a genuine rescue shelter (how btw is that different than returning to the breeder or to the vet). People abandon pets for far lesser inconvieniences.


Well, I JUST got back from polling my entire neighborhood. No, I'm not joking, as yes, if you want proof I can back it up.

Out of the *78 *families I polled (with indoor dogs) :

*61 *of them said they WOULD put up with daily incontinence cleaning and wait until the dog had no quality of life left to put them down.
*9 *of them said they would put the dog down if they had daily OR weekly incontinence problems.
*5 *of them said they were unsure what they would do in that situation.
*3 *of them said they would move them outside to live.

NONE of them said they would return the dog to the breeder or dump them off at a shelter.

There were *14 *families that had OUTSIDE dogs that I also polled.

*10 *of them said they would wait until the dog had NO quality of life left. 
*4 *of them said they didn't know what they would do.

Out of the *92 *families I polled, *82 *of them have had dogs before. The rest were first-time dog owners. 

The ages ranged from 22 - 74.

*74 *married couples.
*10 *non-married couples.
*8 *single-parent families. 
-------

Sure, this is only a small neighborhood in all of America. But... maybe my work (in the freaking cold and some rain) proved SOMETHING...


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

> I state my experience and in now way attack someone personally and it generates 16 pages of commentary, with the exception of few like, all on the issue. You on the other hand call me "odd" and "disturbing". Hmmm who is "trolling"?


I never called you odd or disturbing. Please point out where I did. I did say that I feel like you are trolling, which I still believe. Most people do not join a forum and then start a thread stating that, based on their limited experience, why raising puppies from a young age is important. Hence the troll reference.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Well, this was an enlightening read...not sure what to make of the OP or it's implications. I feel so sorry for any beloved pet abandoned by it's 'loving' owner for the mere fact that it soiled the floors or carpets. My sister's Yorkies were expert soilers and lived happy long lives under my sister's roof. My brother's mix is still soiling carpets and she's only 2...not to worry though, she'll not be sent anywhere for her indiscretion.

On the topic of bonding, my daughter has an 8 year old mix that she Rescued a year ago. She and this little dog are soul mates and adore each other. He follows her every move. When he cannot physically follow her, his eyes never leave her...it's amazing to see. Had she raised him from a pup, they could not love each other more.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

fostermom said:


> I never called you odd or disturbing. Please point out where I did. I did say that I feel like you are trolling, which I still believe. Most people do not join a forum and then start a thread stating that, based on their limited experience, why raising puppies from a young age is important. Hence the troll reference.


Fair enough. I apologize. I confused you with the other posetr who did. Well sorry we disagree about trolling, which I understand to mean personally attacking. But you did not do that to me and I apologize again.

That so many responded I note to suggest the OP is probably not bizarre. Bizaqrre posts disapear. Web forums should educate and make people think. The vast majority of responses are on thhe underlying issue with some people passionate arguing their position.

Isn't that a goal of someone who states an opinion on a public forum to generate discussion and thinking. The OP did that.. I think these are interesting issues.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> You and the two other posters that flame me personally by calling me odd. Uh, did you actually ever learn to read? Show me where I said I dumped/abandoned an old incontinent dog.
> 
> Show me why it is "odd" to relay my personal experience and feeling that raising a dog from puppyhood under the circumstances that we faced--knowing small children would be present and a dog showing aggression would have to be given up? Uh how does that label me odd. Explain.
> 
> ...


 
Ah... and here is the point where the poster indicates that they have so much more insight and comprehension than the rest of us. 
Including me, who has ALWAYS said that "people come first" and am an advocate of not calling my dogs "furr kids", etc, so as not to provide the PETA's and H$U$'s of our world more fuel for their burning agenda's. (Dave as "son" tribute aside, our love and devotion to that dog, as with all of our dogs, still does not put them "above humans". 

If I were inclined to mimic RTH, I'd say that the entire point being made by the OP is "ridiculous" and unfounded by facts. The op IS "odd" in its presumption and presentation as gospel, without ever considering those who have had more than 3 dogs, those who have devoted their lives to rescue, those who train dogs for a living, or who are caring, responsible breeders.

I maintain that the entire premise of this thread/exercise/incitement _is _odd, and that if the poster considers those here to be zealots, and illiterates, then maybe he may want to reconsider his participation with such nincompoops. He is SO much better than that :doh:.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Mssjnnfer said:


> Well, I JUST got back from polling my entire neighborhood. No, I'm not joking, as yes, if you want proof I can back it up.
> 
> Out of the *78 *families I polled (with indoor dogs) :
> 
> ...


Wow! very intesting. Thanks for taking the time to do that. Its also very heartening bc I and some others stated that folks are by nature of being here more passionate about their dogs. Your neighborhood is a better sampling.

One thing I wonder though. Whether some of the responders' hypothetical response might differ when they are faced with reality. You might also have a few who might be embarrassed to tell you otherwise. But my guess is despite those factors, it looks like more would be so caring than I would have predicted.

I think your poll is the most thought provoking of any post here. Kudos!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Totally Jennifer, that was way cool! 

I should go out and poll my own neighborhood. Not that I will, and don't have the time and would have to walk miles and miles to get as many responses as you did ... but it sure would be interesting to see if the numbers match my perception.

But YAY for you! I just want to tell you that I really appreciated the time and effort you put into that. And what a huge contribution to this discussion you've made.

:You_Rock_


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> The op IS "odd" in its presumption and presentation as gospel, without ever considering those who have had more than 3 dogs, those who have devoted their lives to rescue, those who train dogs for a living, or who are caring, responsible breeders.


Another total misreading of my OP. As noted above I state twice in OP that was my limited experience only and not the be end all and that I am not a dog expert.

That is presumption that my opinion was presented by me as "gospel."

What is your point by mistating my OP and then attacking that mischaracterization?


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Jenn your poll was awesome!!  

I think if I polled those in my neighborhood, the answers would be much different, sadly.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> Another total misreading of my OP. As noted above I state twice in OP that was my limited experience only and not the be end all and that I am not a dog expert.
> 
> That is presumption that my opinion was presented by me as "gospel."
> 
> What is your point by mistating my OP and then attacking that mischaracterization?


 
You continued to state that you believe a majority of pet owners polled would eliminate from their home dogs who were incontinent. You also repeatedly state that you understand why people would. My premise is that I do NOT understand how people could, nor do I believe, based on years of experience, that a majority would. I do think that the original post is odd. I don't understand the point, nor the motive.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Okay this is late, I know but throwing my 2 cents in. I have had 2 dogs in my life, one which is Max. My Willow, who is going on 11, I am very bonded with for sure - but I feel that certain life experiences have bonded us more than the had you since 8 week old thing. Max is certainly bonded to me. However, I'd like to point out that the next dog I get in the future, I'm planning on being an older rescue dog. I do not think that because I'm getting them a year or more into their lives, that I cannot form a deep and endless bond with them or they with me. I've seen too many rescue dogs have those kind of endearing and super strong bonds with their forever families. So... really, I don't think you have any idea of what you're talking about. Yes, it's your opinion, but I think you are way off on this one and I have life experiences and examples to show that you really are. And to suggest that so many rescue dogs are either incontinent or complete behavior problems so why even bother taking them into your home bit - whoa. Well, that's what I got out of it - and if others got that out of your post then it's not the magority that's wrong about your post.

As for the incontinent bit - which really got my attention more than the first - you are so dead wrong about that. I can't believe that you feel that it is a responsible decision to put your dog down if he/she can't control their bladder all the time like they used to. You are posting here going on and on about how much you love dogs, how you are such a dog person but that view doesn't coincide with my definition of that. You aren't the only one to feel that way, I'm sure, but I'm sure I think you are wrong.

Both things are super inflamatory to a lot of the people who use this forum as fosters or working with rescues. You would not believe the heartache and injustice they deal with on a daily basis and how strong a person must be to try to put the peices back together so a broken hearted and a lot of times, old dog can have a second chance due to people who put so many unimportant things above the happiness and responsibilty of having a dog. And then for someone to post on here, thanks to 4 dogs of experience to suggest that the only way to have a true meaningful bond with your dog is to raise it from a puppy and if they become incontinent, putting them down is the responsible thing to do - don't put them in a rescue or shelter, just kill them yourself is blasphemous and an insult to them and what they do. If your dogs become incontinent and you want to do them a favor by putting them down to spare you the inconvience - do us a favor and place them in a rescue so they have a chance to at the least, find peace and comfort somewhere else. 

Shame shame on you and your post and if you don't get yet why you have everyone up in arms, maybe my thoughts will help put it in perspective.

I think I read that you are fighting cancer right now? If I'm remembering correctly, best wishes to you and your family - I pray you have many many more years ahead of you. Cancer is such a scary and hard thing, I know. There really are a great bunch of caring and wonderful individuals on this forum, you have a lot of them seeing red right now - but time heals all things I've heard.


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

Sadly the large never of animals in shelters reflects the ignorance and intolerance of far too many pet owners. Unfortunately is is very easy for people to dump an unwanted pet for ANY reason. There are far too many people who get dogs and cats for all the wrong reason, are not devoted to them and don't try. They move, they cannot afford the bills, they refuse to train the animal, it barks, it digs, it chews. There are countless reasons of course. Excuses.

These are the people who should never have them to begin with. We are all aware of this. The bottom line is always the same and it is the poor animal that suffers for these shameless excuses for owners.

So yes, I am proud to be a zealot. When I adopt an animal it is a commitment for life. Till death do us part, not till SHELTER do us part.

Anything else is unacceptable and NO....I still do NOT understand.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think the GRF community is united in its belief in the value of canine life. That bringing a dog, no matter the age, into our home is a lifelong commitment..... not swayed by convenience. To do otherwise is unthinkable. Nuff said...... end of discussion for me.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

missmarstar said:


> Jenn your poll was awesome!!
> 
> I think if I polled those in my neighborhood, the answers would be much different, sadly.


What poll?? I did not do a poll?  I know Jen did a poll.... Hmm. 

and look for the 50% of ppl who think my sig is too big, I spared you this time!!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> If your dogs become incontinent and you want to do them a favor by putting them down to spare you the inconvience - do us a favor and place them in a rescue so they have a chance to at the least, find peace and comfort somewhere else.


Momtomax, forgive me -- you know I love you  I think you just said what FC has been saying all along. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, there's been a lot of material to read here ... but I thought FC was saying that he can understand why some dog owners give their incontinent dogs up to rescue or shelter rather than having them PTS. He was choosing life over death and saying that rescue is more compassionate than death. Actually, I'm not so sure he actually believes that but he was saying he understands that sometimes that's exactly how people think.

I have to hand it to FC. He's new here, he posted a hot topic and he's taking a lot of heat. I think he's been misunderstood on many levels though and I think we're so upset about this topic that we've rushed to judgment on not only the meaning of his OP but his motive, as well.

It's been my impression from this thread that FC is open to being wrong or saying something not quite the right way, and even open to changing his views. 

I've appreciated where we've been able to stay on topic and not make it personal. I have actually learned something about myself from this thread, and I really have appreciated hearing everyone's stories and experiences. And for that, I thank you again FC. And if I have misinterpreted you in any way, please feel free to set me straight!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

FC mentioned in another thread being a Lawyer. Lawyer's can hold their own, that's for sure!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

FineChina, I think what has everyone so up in arms with your OP isn't your opinion, it's that you feel so strongly about your opinion but haven't experienced both side of the issue (never taking in an adult dog - not counting the one week dog).

If someone came on the boards and stated that they felt rescue dogs would always have stronger bonds with their owners because of everything they have gone through, and puppies could never possibly have such a strong bond, but that person had never raised a puppy, many people on these boards would have the same issue. Having such strong convictions without experiencing the other side to back those beliefs up leave people feeling like they should defend their side.

As for the poll, I have to agree about its lack of validity. It's easy to say what you would hypothetically do, it's another to actually do it when faced with that decision. It would be a little more accurate to ask a vet about clients they have had in that situation.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I do think that the original post is odd. I don't understand the point, nor the motive.


Fair enough if your "odd" label is on the post not an attack on me personally.

Motive? the Point? To me one point/purpose of an internet forum is to get opinions and participate in interesting topics.

I stated my own opinion and experience on a topic that its pretty obvisous here a number of folks find salient and interesting.

Personally I have learned a lot from so many of the responses here. I learned from this. It made me think more about an interesting topic. 
Kind of lost in the discussion or whether folks who abandon an incontinet dog are "evil" was the flip side of the coin that hopefully you and I can agree upon. The people here willing to take on troubled/physically challenged older dogs are the definition of "good" souled.

Let's leave it there on some common agreement.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the compliments on the poll. It was really fun, actually, because Gary came and so did the dogs and they got to kamikaze MANY piles of leaves.  

As for the lack of validity... okay. I'm sure SOME people would probably lie to me... but certainly not all of them. I know almost all of them really well (I grew up in this neighborhood) and know how they are with their animals as well... 

Besides, any poll lacks validity if you think about it. ANYONE could lie... 

Ah well. It was fun, I liked how it turned out and my family had a blast.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> Momtomax, forgive me -- you know I love you  I think you just said what FC has been saying all along. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, there's been a lot of material to read here ... but I thought FC was saying that he can understand why some dog owners give their incontinent dogs up to rescue or shelter rather than having them PTS. He was choosing life over death and saying that rescue is more compassionate than death. Actually, I'm not so sure he actually believes that but he was saying he understands that sometimes that's exactly how people think.
> 
> I have to hand it to FC. He's new here, he posted a hot topic and he's taking a lot of heat. I think he's been misunderstood on many levels though and I think we're so upset about this topic that we've rushed to judgment on not only the meaning of his OP but his motive, as well.
> 
> ...


Jo you have captured what I was attempting to say right on, particularly this

" Actually, I'm not so sure he actually believes that but he was saying he understands that sometimes that's exactly how people think."

Hey I don't mind taking heat on my argument/position. I'm just bugged when people mistate it (like I stated my opinion/experience as gospel or I personally advocate dumping dogs in a shelter)


btw my sister is going through an experience about deciding whether to put down her 11 year old lhaso. They have two dogs a big mutt (adopted by the way age 3 or so) the lil Lhaso Choco wuch was her first dog she got when she moved out from my parents. 

She raised Choco from a pup. In August Choco bit their 15 month old baby severely on the face nearly taking her eye. Thankfullly no lasting damage except maybe a lil scarring.

Our family, myself included, have urged her to remove the dog from their house, by giving him away or PTS. This was a severe bite--fortunately tho from a small dog

But my sister has steadfastly refused after calling many people to see if they would take Choco (who is also diabetic), My sister has made the decision to have a double gate system and always separate the dog.

So giving up on old dog--albeit for much more serious reasons than incontinence--hits home.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

FineChina said:


> You and the two other posters that flame me personally by calling me odd. Uh, did you actually ever learn to read? Show me where I said I dumped/abandoned an old incontinent dog.
> 
> Show me why it is "odd" to relay my personal experience and feeling that raising a dog from puppyhood under the circumstances that we faced--knowing small children would be present and a dog showing aggression would have to be given up? Uh how does that label me odd. Explain.
> 
> ...


I'm a little puzzled at your outrage here, seeing as you've called members here zealots and accused them of being illiterate. That people think your original post (OP) is "odd" is not a personal attack of that caliber... so perhaps you should take a deep breath and consider rephrasing your attacks on others.

As for the number of hits and responses to this post, I don't think that's any indication as to the normalcy or commonality of your line of thinking. On this forum, you'll notice that the threads with the greatest number of responses tend to be the ones steep on controversy and passion.... the ones that focus around strong disagreements and differences in fundamental belief systems. Posting such bold statements as fact (and originally, you did) is a guaranteed way to generate exactly this type of response.



FineChina said:


> As I siad you do not read or comprehend.
> 
> You claim: "You did not post this as an opinion, which is why you had such a strong response."
> 
> ...


In all fairness, you should admit that these statements were added when you went back to edit your post. They certainly weren't there when I read the OP and, though they may change the tone of the post, most of those responding have likely not gone back to read your revised edition. 

I am curious about your opinion on dog/human bonding in light of this other post you made:


> I have never been closer to a dog than that dobie--she knew about 200 commands and was the smartest most intuitve animal I have been around. When she dying at the vet's (lying on her side unable to stand) right ebfore we put her to sleep, she was so sick that she did not wag her tail the hour I was with her. My then 7 year old daughter came in to say goodbye. Old bree's tail wagged the entire 3 minutes my daughter was in the room. When she left the tail stopped.
> 
> True story.


It really is a beautiful story... but clearly contradicts everything you've said about bonding with dogs. Your daughter didn't meet your dobe until the dog was 7 years old (by virtue of their ages), but they were CLEARLY very bonded. She is the one your dog mustered the last of her strength to wag her tail for.... no doubt that was an exhausting 3 minutes for a very ill dog. 

Adopting one dog from a shelter 20 years ago doesn't tell you much about the majority of dogs in shelters and rescues. It's impossible to form a viable conclusion from such limited data. And it puzzles me that you base such a rigidly defined opinion from that one less than stellar experience, while ignoring the experience of your daughter. 

The simple fact of the matter is you are wrong on that point. While you're certainly free to choose raising puppies for yourself based on whatever notion crosses your mind, you are in absolutely no position to give advice to anyone on this forum (or anywhere else) who is contemplating whether to get a puppy or rescue an older dog. 

You lecture the members here that their zealot-like devotion to dogs has the unintended consequence of leading to more dogs being killed in shelters. How incredibly ironic considering the fact that you seek to convince everyone that bonding with an older, rescued dog will be fundamentally limited and deficient compared to a puppy. Luckily there are more than enough voices here with the experience and knowledge you lack that are able to so eloquently prove contrary. Thankfully there are people who are devoted these hapless dogs, who find themselves homeless for reasons as grotesque as they've lost control of their bladder or bowel in old age. Call me a zealot, but I am with the rest of the responders here... I cannot comprehend how anyone can give up a dog that has been devoted to them for many years... for ANY reason. It is cruel, whether you can see it or not. 

There's more I'd like to say... but I think this post has gotten long enough. I do hope that my post, and those of the other members here, has caused you to sit down and think about your positions on these issues. As you so proudly pat yourself on the back for causing us to think... I wonder if it ever crossed your mind that perhaps it is you who needs to reconsider?

Julie and Jersey


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> Fair enough if your "odd" label is on the post not an attack on me personally.
> 
> Motive? the Point? To me one point/purpose of an internet forum is to get opinions and participate in interesting topics.
> 
> ...


 
Uh huh. Okay... :thinking:


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

momtoMax said:


> And to suggest that so many rescue dogs are either incontinent or complete behavior problems so why even bother taking them into your home bit - whoa.
> And then for someone to post on here, thanks to 4 dogs of experience to suggest that the only way to have a true meaningful bond with your dog is to raise it from a puppy and if they become incontinent, putting them down is the responsible thing to do - don't put them in a rescue or shelter, just kill them yourself is blasphemous and an insult to them and what they do. .


Thank you for your kind thoughts on my health. The areas I quoted from you above, please understand I did NOT say those things. I think you misread my post.

I did say I understand why people would put their dogs in a shelter or put them down due to incontence. 

I don't know if you saw my post about my sister's problem with a dog that bit my baby niece in the face in August. Before I posted this I was again talking with my sister about how she was going to handle this.

Although its nowhere stated in my original post, my viewpoint on raising dogs from a puppy was with the potential of aggession in my mind.

And you know something odd. A bulb just went off that bolsters the adopt an older pet theory. The dog that bit my niece had been raised from puppyhood. Her other dog the mutt but with some german shepherd in her was adopted around age 2 or 3. She has been perfect and lets the baby crawl all over her and poke and prod.

Yes I do see the other viewpoint. I am just asking that people take on the argument and not make it personal.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

FineChina said:


> Jo you have captured what I was attempting to say right on, particularly this
> 
> " Actually, I'm not so sure he actually believes that but he was saying he understands that sometimes that's exactly how people think."
> 
> ...


Oh Jo you know I love you back BUT  I stand ((((OH MY GOD I just took a dice out of Max's mouth!! Oh thank god, would that have passed?!? Ugh. Anyways...what was I saying....)))) Oh right, I stand behind 98% of what I said, with a 2% error that Jo has pointed out may be there. I read this from the moment it was posted and then only to read the first few of his "defenses" of his OP digging the hole deeper and deeper. He said, if I remember correctly, and I usually do, that he thought the responsible thing to do if your dog was incontinent was not to take it to a shelter but to put it to sleep. He also said that he understands why people would take their dog to a shelter for that which means that if he can understand why, he supports that kind of thinking. I don't understand that kind of thinking at all. And as for the puppy bonding thing, when he went into all that shelter bathroom issues, so many there for that reason and other bad reasons, don't get one from there - get a puppy and never adopt from a shelter nonsense. Bad advice, head up behind thinking. Not saying his head is up his behind, as a personal attack or anything, just that his thinking is. Does that make sense? 
I have to give it to PG when she responded to his post by asking well then what do you think should happen to all the dogs in the shelter? Once where the two of us were in complete agreement on something. I thought, go you PG. I know, it's so weird isn't it?! And then the bit about where PG mentioned RTH and his comments in a positive way. This is one freaky thread!!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

LOL. This thread is getting so convoluted between what FC said or didn't say or what he did or didn't mean ... I'm lost! 

P.S. the dice would have passed


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

FineChina said:


> Thank you for your kind thoughts on my health. The areas I quoted from you above, please understand I did NOT say those things. I think you misread my post.
> 
> I did say I understand why people would put their dogs in a shelter or put them down due to incontence.
> 
> ...


Ah, well you've opened a Pandora's box. Like I mentioned, you might as well have said something like, Puppy mills make the best puppies!! Buy from puppy mills!! or maybe I got a puppy and my 9 year old dog I've had since it was a puppy isn't getting along with it so I'm looking for a good home for my 9 year old dog. 

The people who are getting the most passionate are the people who care the most about issues like this so it's kind of like a trial by fire. If you survive this thread intact, you're golden. Pun intended.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I guess this shows how times have changed since I was a child. My dad's Westie bit me multiple times in the face. Near my eye and I had wounds. The difference was, I was told to stay away from Bonnie's face, but I didn't. So I got bitten and the dog was not punished. I was told that I got what I had brought on. I shrugged it off and actually got bitten a few more times before I learned my lesson. It wasn't Bonnie's fault, it was mine. Maybe I was a slow learner? LOL


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

You know, mentioning RTH, I miss his posts.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

fostermom said:


> I guess this shows how times have changed since I was a child. My dad's Westie bit me multiple times in the face. Near my eye and I had wounds. The difference was, I was told to stay away from Bonnie's face, but I didn't. So I got bitten and the dog was not punished. I was told that I got what I had brought on. I shrugged it off and actually got bitten a few more times before I learned my lesson. It wasn't Bonnie's fault, it was mine. Maybe I was a slow learner? LOL



LOL your story made me laugh. I think its because so many people now don't want to tell a child "no" or tell them that they've done anything wrong ever... no sense of personal responsibility.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Well, the 16 month old it's tough, but likely partly a mix of fault of the unknowing 16 month old and the parent. I know my 10 year old is super cranky. She never so much as growled at the baby climbing, pulling, cooing at her. But then again, that same baby was a source of good food for her - dropping stuff all the time and handing over his snacks. Recently, Willow bit Leif (anyone) for the first time. He wasn't thinking, he was trying to pull Willow into the house by her fur and he might have hurt her, so she reached back and snapped. Willow was not punished, Leif got 2 stitches and lost computer / video game priviledges for a week. Kids need to understand that dogs and cats and bunnies, etc have feelings too. It's a hard lesson to learn sometimes!


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Jersey's Mom

since I've been quick to jump on what I thought were unfair characterizations or worse personal attacks, I should be equally quick to state that your points are valid.

The first edit of my post which edited withing 3 hours was rambling and while it was not stated even there as be all end all, I did soften then. And I stated that. We have all overstated something or read it and realized their written thougths didn't read in a first draft as they intended.

The first 3 pages of comments were on that post. I did not atatck those people; rather look back to around 3 or 4 and you see I apoligized and agreed with them.

I only started to take umbrage and get personal in response to posts much later on concerning my edited post where 3 people labelled me personally "odd". More upsetting was what that the opinions they claimed I stated that they found so odd, I just never said.

btw when I did not say that most older abandoned dogs are incontinent. The whole abandoned shelter topic was a direct comment on a thread below that was discussing the high number of older dogs given away to a shelter. That shelter had a web site and a biography on each dog up for adoption. In my OP I was discussing that a fair number of the abandoned older dogs in that specific shelter had incontinence problems. Not the majority tho. 

And no I fully say I am not a dog breeder/expert etc. That does not mean I am censored from voicing my opinion and personal experience.

And this may come across as bragging. But my dobie as you saw from my very first unedited post knew all sorts of commands. Both my dogs too walk on heel without a leash perfectly. Our Goldie 95% will not run off to greet another person or dog altho you can tell he really really wants to. And if its boasting a little so be it, but compared to our friends and relatives dogs, our 2 dogs are better discplined and trained. Those friends/neighbors are not pros just average suburban dog owners just like me I am talking about. I did read 3 books on training when I got my dobie but that's a lil like saying I stayed at a holiday Inn. But it also showed I took dog ownership serious and was willing to give back in training/time (and that's half of training isn't it spending time with your dog) and studying and learning. I spent a whole nunch of time training the dobie; not nearly nearly as much with the golden. Which I think makes the Golden kinda cool that he has picked up so much basic stuff like heeling off leash without all that much training

So so yes I think that my 2 last dogs have turned out so well behaved entitles me to at least be eligible to post my opinion with some dog success to back it up.

Finally, I do not intend "zealots" to be negative. I apologize for that too. It has a negative connotation. I should have said super dedicated.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

FineChina said:


> Finally, I do not intend "zealots" to be negative. I apologize for that too. It has a negative connotation. I should have said super dedicated.


I understood that, I took no offense.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

This is FC and his well behaved doggy comments

Please please don't take this the wrong way but I have to say. There is this man who lives around the corner of my block that has 2 dobermans, as it is, as pets. They are very well trained. My neighbor has witnessed him punching his fists down into his dogs heads. Others have seen him kick and hit his dogs with objects. Now, aside from the has anyone called the SPCA questions, which would be yes, for all the good it did, my point is that his dogs are super well behaved but that does not make him a great dog owner/trainer and that does not mean that his dogs are happy dogs.

When you go on and on about how well trained your dogs are, gee, that's great -especially if they were trained in a humane and happy manner - that is super but really, I'm more interested to hear about how happy your dogs are. My dogs are not super well trained but they are super happy and bring so much happiness into our lives. Willow doesn't know 200 commands but she's completely content and happy with her life, her people and we feel the same way about her. Max is a newbie, he's learning but it's when he isn't listening and is being very silly that makes him perfect - he has brought so much laughter into our house and what a gift that is. 
A well trained dog is not always the same as a happy, healthy, and content dog. So tell me about their happiness and your happiness with them - dogs are not toys and tricks alone do not enthrall me.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

Momto. You are right about your neighbor and bad training thru abuse and intimidation. By now you should know that's not me. My animals have NEVER been hit by us.

And I am willing to bet that those dobies show aggression and could probably not be trusted around little kids. 

o btw an amusing aside on ur comment about all the effort of our doberman to wag a tail for 3 minutes. Remember this was a dobie with 2 inch docked tail. Now had it been a golden tail......


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FineChina said:


> Jersey's Mom
> 
> since I've been quick to jump on what I thought were unfair characterizations or worse personal attacks, I should be equally quick to state that your points are valid.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I will not go so far as to call you illiterate, a courtesy that you did not offer fellow members, but the POST was called odd. Not you. I won't speak for anyone else, but as far as your being accused of stating opinions that you did not, I took exception to your understanding, and seemingly condoning, the dumping of incontinent dogs. 

I still think the post is very odd, and agree with little, if any of it.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

On how happy the dogs are. I just asked our golden and he said he is very happy.

Actually, being so well trained, he said it in 4 languages, including an interesting chinese mandarin dialect I trained him just last week--even more amazing since I don't speak any foreign languages.

Seriously. Happy? I think so. They certainly get attention and walking etc.


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

More on your neighbor's striking his dobermans.

A human striking a dog for any reason IS something I am very passionate about.

I believe strongly that most dogs, even tho more aggressive beeds, are not intuitively aggressive towards humans to the point they will bite. I also strongly feel that a dog that has been struck by its master coud very well turn or be aggressive.

Thta is one reason I personally prefer the rasing from a puppy route. Again tainted my own experience. But that adopted labrador who tried to bite me--a breed not known for aggression, colored my view. I am fearful that you cannot know whether an adopted dog went through. Worse, that a family chose to abandon a dog imo makes it more likely they were not fit to raise a dog and that dog may be subject to behavior issues.

We all go from our experiences. Ny preference about a ouooy view is from our concern about a dog possibly showing aggression towards kids.
People here are Golden owners. Goldiees are so docile, even an abused one is still probably disposed to not show any aggression to kids.

But 14 years of my dog experience was with dobermans a breed where aggression is a concern. And when we made the decision on the last 3 dogs--including the returned lab, we had the concern of a family with kids always front and center.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

There's no problem with you voicing your opinion based on your experience. It's the part where you make assumptions based on something you have never experienced that's raised some hackles here. I don't think anyone is really questioning that you have a very strong bond with your dogs (past and present). Most people here have raised puppies at one time or another and know the joy (and work) that comes with seeing a teeny tiny pup grow into a wonderful companion. Your experiences with that are wonderful, and it's great that you want to share them with the members here. But there's at least as many (possibly more) members here who have rescued dogs in various stages of life. Your opinion does not trump their first hand experience... even if you have a hard time imagining that kind of bond with an older dog.

Yes, you had one bad experience with a shelter dog 20 years ago... and that experience is valuable as well, as it shows the importance of working with a facility that does temperament testing on the dogs to ensure good matches and make sure that when a dog goes home with someone it is far more likely to be forever. But to repeatedly insinuate that the bonding between a person and an adult rescue is any less unique, deep, or lasting than what you have experienced with your 3 dogs only serves to show that you know not of what you speak. And to blame our dedication to our dogs throughout the entirety of their lives, for better or worse, for increasing the numbers of homeless dogs while you actively discourage people from rescuing is disingenuous and hypocritical. It's not the same as stating your opinion based on your experiences... and you can't really be surprised that people have turned out in large numbers to refute your leaps of logic. 

It actually says a lot to me that you ignored the substance of my point about your daughter and chose instead to make a tongue in cheek response about the size of the dog's tail. So I'm sure this post, and the hundreds of others posted by other members, will fall on equally deaf ears.... but that's okay. I hold no illusions that any of us will change your mind, but hopefully someone out there reading has gained a better understanding of exactly the depth of bonding that is possible with a dog at any age.

Julie and Jersey


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

FineChina said:


> On how happy the dogs are. I just asked our golden and he said he is very happy.
> 
> Actually, being so well trained, he said it in 4 languages, including an interesting chinese mandarin dialect I trained him just last week--even more amazing since I don't speak any foreign languages.
> 
> Seriously. Happy? I think so. They certainly get attention and walking etc.


 
laughs, it's always good when we can poke at ourselves. Thanks for the laugh!


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## FineChina (Sep 21, 2009)

No as I stated you guys have actually made more uncertain on the issue of pup vs older dog--I said that earlier. And I also noted that niece was recently bitten by my sister's dog raised from a puppy. My sister also has big breed mutt adopted as an adult and he is much better with the baby.


So yes yes I see the other viewpoint. But no no, If I was personally getting dog I still go the puppy route. Just me personally. 

Speaking of incontinece, I do think one big benefit of adopting an adult younger dog is that they are almost certainly house broken and you can avoid the frustrating stuff that goes on with puppyhood--chewing (my dobie pup ruined a couch) lack of any disclipline etc.

But so far I am still not convinced that you can develop as much of a bond and also training with an older dog that had not been trained previously.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FineChina said:


> And the said REALITY is that narrowing the pool of eligible pet owners to only those who sign agreements promising such dedication will have UNINTENDED consequence of dissuading or changing the minds of prospective dog owners. And the sad REALITY is that for every pet not adopted, that is another one euthanized. Better to have a loving owner until a dog very old and incontinent than a person being talked/contracted out of taking on a dog b/c they won't agree to keep the dog no matter what. Again the result of that policy--one less adopted dog, one more euthanized dog. Life is a bitch. But sticking our heads in the sand is not being realistic.


Not at all. For every person that decides not to get a puppy, one could argue, the demand for new puppies is diminished. Dog overpopulation is the fault of those who breed dogs willy-nilly for profit and those who don't spay and neuter appropriately, not people who decide the responsibility of a dog isn't quite for them.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FineChina said:


> If you are really interested in the underlying issue instead of personally insulting you should review this interesting web site, then you will begin to understand:
> 
> http://isgwww.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/graphik/pub/files/Goetze_2001_AHF.pdf


You really shouldn't post links like that when you don't proofread your posts all that well...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> You really shouldn't post links like that when you don't proofread your posts all that well...


 
HAHAHAHAHA... beat me to it, Brian. 

And, remember the rule - ""I" before "e" except after "c"." (Unless the word is "weird", (isn't that weird???) which is, in this case, apropos....)


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

FineChina said:


> But so far I am still not convinced that you can develop as much of a bond and also training with an older dog that had not been trained previously.


... Are you freaking kidding? Have you not read the numerous personal stories posted here? :uhoh:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Mssjnnfer said:


> ... Are you freaking kidding? Have you not read the numerous personal stories posted here? :uhoh:


It's a good thing Blair hasn't seen this thread.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I can't believe this topic has consumed 21 pages. It's lunacy!!!!!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Uh, I have trained street strays to advanced levels of obedience and even service work.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

fostermom said:


> We are not zealots. Many of us work in rescue or have volunteered at shelters. .... If you are going to throw stones, can you at least list your rescue or shelter experience? .........





FineChina said:


> On "Life's a bitch". Of course they don't deserve that fate. Its unfair. But that is REALITY. it is REALITY that so many many dogs are killed because there are not homes for them.
> Life is a bitch. But sticking our heads in the sand is not being realistic.


I'm with fostermom on this one. Friend, YOU are the one who is "sticking your head in the sand", because you proclaim that dogs are best raised from puppies; you have never adopted a dog from a rescue (that one-week lab doesn't count, and yes, I understand why you couldn't keep him), and you excuse those who fill shelters with unwanted dogs who have become inconvenient.

Many of us, on the other hand (myself included), have fostered, rescued, and volunteered at shelters and rescues. Just last week my neighbors and I co-adopted an unwanted husky who was just a day or so from being pts. I used to foster litters of unwanted puppies for the borough shelter until they were old enough to be adopted (talk about poop on the carpet, haha!), and every day for the last month I've wiped up after my Pudden, because she's going through a bout of spay incontinence. So yeah, I've seen the overpopulation and the unwanted dogs, and I've NOT stuck my head in the sand.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

FineChina said:


> You on the other hand call me "odd" and "disturbing". Hmmm who is "trolling"?
> 
> If you are really interested in the underlying issue instead of personally insulting you should review this interesting web site, then you will begin to understand:


friend, ya need to take a deep breath and chill a bit. Nobody has personally insulted you or called you odd and disturbing. Some have noted that they find your original post odd and were disturbed by the idea of abandoning an old dog, but no one has leveled these adjectives at your person. 

You've repeated a common scenario: 

1) person A makes a post voicing a strong opinion on this or that
2) other posters chime in and for the most part, disagree with person A's opinion with strong opinions of their own
3) Person A did not expect to have his opinion so unanimously rejected and gets all upset because he feels personally attacked. 

rinse and repeat - it happens all the time


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I can't believe this topic has consumed 21 pages. It's lunacy!!!!!


Hahaha, are you calling me a lunatic? I've read all 21 pages!  Lunatic was one of the words in the definition of zealot 

I think it's been a good discussion, for the most part. Obviously a topic many have strong feelings about. I see nothing wrong with that.

:wave:


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## justmejanis (Feb 25, 2007)

FineChina said:


> No as I stated you guys have actually made more uncertain on the issue of pup vs older dog--I said that earlier. And I also noted that niece was recently bitten by my sister's dog raised from a puppy. My sister also has big breed mutt adopted as an adult and he is much better with the baby.
> 
> 
> So yes yes I see the other viewpoint. But no no, If I was personally getting dog I still go the puppy route. Just me personally.
> ...



This last sentence totally offends me. Have you not read any of the posts from the countless people here who have adopted from shelters, or rescued? READ READ READ! You could not be more wrong !!!!! You seem to pick apart and quote from the few replies here that you feel are aimed at challenging you personally.

I suggest you start at the beginning and read OUR personal stories. Only then might you actually learn something.

You truly do not have a clue......


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## Mandarama (Jul 5, 2009)

FineChina said:


> But so far I am still not convinced that you can develop as much of a bond and also training with an older dog that had not been trained previously.


I imagine you wouldn't be convinced of this point unless you experienced it for yourself. Kind of like how I couldn't imagine how I would ever love another child like I loved my first one--until my second one came into my arms and a whole other dimension opened up. It's hard to imagine feelings you haven't had, and it's hard to speculate about imaginary dogs.

So I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just living the amazement that in July I came here scared about my family getting a dog, b/c I'd lived with an aggressive one and had stopped trusting dogs in general. I was afraid I couldn't love this dog the rescue found us because he wasn't what I'd pictured. I worried about his past and his lack of training, his late neutering, the unknowns in his life. 

Now it's October, and I can't remember life without Murphy. He's responding so well to obedience class; my children roll all over him and sleep with him; I let him put his face on my face and snuggle. My cats lie down right next to him. The whole neighborhood looks forward to our walking by. I trust him in a way I couldn't have imagined--I really never thought I'd trust a dog again (I was bitten in the face before). But that's how fast a good dog bonds to you, and I don't believe my story is unusual.


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

I agree, Mandarama, nothing we say will change his mind and it is his loss. Thank you for giving your dog a chance to change your mind! (Maybe not changing your mind, but changing your fear.)

I have two seniors I adopted a month or so ago. I'd been fostering, but decided to adopt them. These dogs have been through h*ll, but they are the sweetest, most obedient, loving dogs you would ever want to meet. They were pulled by rescue two hours before being euthenized. They had been turned in to the animal control at about the only kill shelter in the state.

They come to work with me and visit with the customers. They have changed people's minds. A young lady who had been attacked by a dog went into a panic when she saw that there was a dog in the store, but slowly with encouragement she came up to Buddy and after an hour of petting and sitting with him she declared herself in love. This is a dog who lived outside for ten years with minimal human contact, had to be shaved down due to ants and maggots living in his matted coat, has hip displasia and arthritis, but still trusts and loves people.

How can I not love him and be bonded with him? How could I not adopt him? His eight year old companion is equally loving. She just has a hard time in crowded situations due to being blind and deaf so she doesn't come to work as often. These seniors are danged special and I've only known them for two months!


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2009)

I lost Ryder at 10, Tango at 9 and Molson at 7.
I wouldn't care if they pooped and peed everywhere if it meant I could have a little more time with them.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

FineChina, I'm very sorry for you. The cancer's got nothing to do with that sentiment. You will never know the true depth of the canine/human bond because you put limitations on that bond right out of the box. Don't bother to reread all the pages in this thread; you simply won't "get it". Just as some married people don't actually understand the vows "for better or for worse", some people who perceive themselves as good pet owners don't understand the unwritten and unspoken convenant between beloved pet and loving owner. It's not zealotry....it's decency born of love. In no way is this post meant as a personal slam to you. It is simply apparent that you don't and won't "get it", and no amount of trying to sway your perceptions will enable a light bulb moment.


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