# Teaching a fetch command



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I recently judged a JH Hunt Test. I saw the nicest group of Junior level dogs. All were quite capable of doing the work. My co judge and I designed a nice test: Two flyers for each dog, nice birds, scented fall areas, and nicely placed marks. However, one area in which I would say 50% needed work on was delivery. When we saw poor delivery we would ask "Did you force fetch this dog?" Some of the responses were:

1. This doesn't happen while duck hunting.
2. Well yeah, but I didn't complete it.
3. My dog is so soft I can't do it.
4. He doesn't need it.
5. No.

We would then recommend either force fetch or doing a complete taught fetch command. I believe that many people are not familiar with the proofing of the fetch command and thus the job is incomplete. Also, just because a dog does something once or twice does not mean that the dog "knows it". Not only that but when you start yelling "Fetch, fetch" and the dog doesn't fetch, a handler is unwittingly teaching disobedience to the command.

PS Yesterday I trained with someone who thinks he taught his dog the fetch command. I could tell ,it was an incomplete job. The command had to be repeated several times. The incomplete job is quite obvious. If someone chooses to teach a fetch command (FF or otherwise), TEACH THE COMMAND.


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## dwilliams (May 16, 2016)

Good post!

I am a huge advocate of FF, dogs that break and/or don't deliver to hand are some of my biggest pet peeves.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

George I'm judging 3 junior tests this summer. Since it's a very small community here, I'll know most of the people running and know their dogs. I'm going to have to be very PC about who I've been training with and how their dogs do. My fear is that I put my foot my mouth in a big way. I'd be happy seeing dogs with a good "hold". It is frustrating seeing someone beg and plead for their dog to pick up the bird and bring it to them. But you've never seen a spaniel test have you? They don't FF spaniels for some crazy reason. It is really sad when you see people fail because of no FF.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Stacey, at one time I didn't force fetch my dogs. However every dog that I have owned delivered to hand. I made sure of that. And as for the pleading of "Come on, fetch it up", this is a good example of teaching a dog to be disobedient to the command IMO.

I would love to see a spaniel test or trial. None close to me.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Having seen lots of junior dogs over the last 30 years, I would estimate that less than half of their owners teach formal fetch and hold in some manner. Most of those that have not don't believe it's necessary. 

Then they try to run a test and the dog spits the bird at their feet and won't pick it up again. I used to tell them they needed to force fetch the dog. About 90% dug their heels in and refused to do anything that was called "force" with their dog. Now I tell them they need to formally teach their dog to hold and fetch. Then they ask "How to do that?" as quickly and efficiently as possible.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I would be one of those people. After spending the winter/spring working rally & obedience I am venturing back into the field. I started force fetch last Fall and I just can't continue it. My girl melted when she saw bumpers afterwards, I didn't have my confident pup but instead one that wanted to offer numerous avoidance behaviors than work with bumpers which were like doggie crack to her. Went back to take, hold, give and giving her cookies but haven't gone any further as I don't want to instill bad habits due to my ignorance. Anyhow, we start a beginner class this July and I know she really needs to be FF'd. At least her refusal to give up the bird has stopped but now she spits it out in front of me & not close enough to do a diving catch to retrieve it.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Personally, I do not feel it is a judge's place to recommend training techniques. 

A judge's job is to set up a fair and safe test, to judge what they see and possibly tell the handler what they saw that was right or wrong, not to ask training questions. Please don't put an exhibitor in a position where they might feel they need to defend themselves or feel they have to follow one way of training in order to 'belong' at an event - you might very well find yourself on a 'do not show to' list; I know one judge who made unnecessary comments at a hunt test found herself on my list of judges not to show to and other folks were grumbling.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Sunrise, if you feel that way, I wouldn't suggest you run any NAHRA tests. They judges almost always give you training ideas to do better the next time. It is part of running NAHRA and why I like running NAHRA. I know we are discussing AKC and their tests are a bit more formal than NAHRA.


I suggest anyone running a test/trial to have someone videotape them. It's the best way to look back on what happened and get a different perspective and gain knowledge about what they could have done differently.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> Personally, I do not feel it is a judge's place to recommend training techniques.
> 
> A judge's job is to set up a fair and safe test, to judge what they see and possibly tell the handler what they saw that was right or wrong, not to ask training questions. Please don't put an exhibitor in a position where they might feel they need to defend themselves or feel they have to follow one way of training in order to 'belong' at an event - you might very well find yourself on a 'do not show to' list; I know one judge who made unnecessary comments at a hunt test found herself on my list of judges not to show to and other folks were grumbling.


AGREE 100%%%%%%%%%

It is also not your job as a judge to evaluate if they trained their dog the right way. You are to evaluate if the dog RESPONDS to their commands and completes the elements of the test. 

Now, if after the test is done, a handler comes up and asks you personally what you would do to train XYZ, then that is up to you if you want to offer advice. At the line, during their run, or during the judges' briefing? Absolutely not. You will see all manner of unusual habits, training quirks, odd commands and weird maneuvers but if as long as the dog displays adequate trainability (response) and completes the elements of the test, then you really should leave your comments about their obvious training style to yourself.

Yes, in Junior it is amazing the high percentage of dogs with obviously poor "force fetch." But really, maybe a few every assignment will be the repeated commands fifty times, Junior dive kinda people. The rest of them make it through pretty OK. 

Junior is entertaining as all get out. Rejoice with the handlers. If they pass they will be thrilled. No need to lecture or grill them on their training technique just because you'd do differently. And hey, none of us are Mike Lardy and have any room to talk!!!!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sunrise


Title of thread is teaching a fetch command. Recommendation in my post was : either FF or teach the command (open ended as to technique) so it does not seem to me that I am recommending a training technique. We also told these people that another set of judges may very well fail their dog with what we saw but we passed them with the caveat that they need to teach fetch.

I would like to keep these people in the game rather than see them get frustrated because of failures in hunt testing. Of course it is not my job to keep these people in the sport but it is something I would like to do. They are JH people and the future of the sport.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You specifically mentioned 'Did you force fetch this dog?'

JH stakes *are* the future of the sport and that question should not be asked of a handler. They know they failed or had a lenient judge. They know their dog had a poor delivery and no doubt know much else that the dog did wrong - did you ask any handlers if they knew how to teach heel - or stay - or mark - or fetch? Probably not since these are also inappropriate questions. This question might very well have the handler decide that sport is not for them if the judge's comments could be construed as negative or intrusive. I have seen many a handler leave the line in tears and a judges negative comment might well have made sure that was the final hunt test they ever attended. 

Force Fetch does not insure a clean delivery (or pickup) any more than a completely taught retrieve by any other method does -- things happen and verbally questioning the handlers as to their training styles is not appropriate. Sorry if this offends you but again, it is not your job as a judge to question training methods - it is your job to be fair and impartial after setting up a test that tests appropriate skills and that is safe for the handlers and dogs. Maybe suggest the delivery needs work but leave it at that.

This should be no different (in AKC) than how other sports are judged and how the judges react - the judge will tell you you passed or failed and in some cases explain why you failed when you failed (ie; the broad jump corner was cut or in the case of one of Faelan's HT water retrieves, 'sorry, he didn't bring back enough of the bird'), but they would never ask how you trained something.



gdgli said:


> I recently judged a JH Hunt Test. I saw the nicest group of Junior level dogs. All were quite capable of doing the work. My co judge and I designed a nice test: Two flyers for each dog, nice birds, scented fall areas, and nicely placed marks. However, one area in which I would say 50% needed work on was delivery. *When we saw poor delivery we would ask "Did you force fetch this dog*?" Some of the responses were:
> 
> 1. This doesn't happen while duck hunting.
> 2. Well yeah, but I didn't complete it.
> ...


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sunrise

Thank you for your input. Not offended at all, this is a forum and you make a valid point.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry G - but if a judge ever asked me if I force fetched my dog it would not be pleasant for the judge. And not sure he could walk/drive afterwards. Yes, I agree that a lot of dogs in the JH are barely trained. But force fetch is not the answer. And yes some dogs are too sensitive to be force fetched. And NO, a retriever does not need the be force fetched hence why it is called a retriever and not a pointer - it was bred to retrieve for it's handler. FF is a method developed for pointers that the ribbon chasers have adopted in the retriever world do get the youngest dog to complete a title or the most point acquired dog. It has nothing to do with the dog, it just shows how far the owner cares to go for fame. 

I personally do not care what age you achieve your goal. I do however care about presentation in a test. I want to see a dog that does what it was bred to do and yes, that does mean a dog with drive, with marking ability and a dog that delivers to hand.


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