# Must pick pup by Thursday, Help me pick.



## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

I started a new tread to condense some of the information. This is a continuation of this thread: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=74224 If you already responded I thank you very much. For those that haven't please give me your opinion on the bitch you think shows the most potential. I guess I was vague in the original thread. But I don't own these pups, I am planning on purchasing one this Thursday. The litter consisted of 4 males, 4 females. I am only posting pictures of the 3 bitches I have to choose from. One was already spoken for and was chosen for the color alone. The breeder said she wasn't what I was looking for because she was the most shy of the females. Here is the link to the petigree of the bitch and dog. 

Bitch: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=311708 she does have all her clearances they just aren't posted here.

Dog: http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=311713 with all clearances

The pups are 6 weeks old in these pictures. Please critiqe the pups and give me your opinion as to which pup I should select and your reasonings if possible. I know the pictures are not the best but they are all I have at this time. I have a lot to learn and your feedback/reasoning helps in that process. Again thank you for your help


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

What are your plans for the dog? Showing, breeding, or both?

I'm not an expert- so I won't vote.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm no expert but I don't think that the stacked photos are done well enough to tell from a photo. I personally like the orange collar because she has a sweet face


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

If she is good enough to show I would like to learn to show her. I do plan to breed her as well at some point in the future after she is old enough to get her clearances. I realize the stack photo's aren't the best but its all I have at the moment to post. 

Thanks


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If you are looking for a conformation prospect, the breeder is your best option. Assuming she shows, she should be able to select the most promising pup for you.

Right now, it is almost impossible to tell by the pictures which pup is the best prospect for conformation. At the least, you need better pictures to base your decision on.

Looking at the pedigrees and OFA, I personally would not take any of the 3 remaining girls as a conformation prospect to build a breeding program on. The dam of the litter does not have an elbow clearance and neither does her mother, her heart clearance is only from a practitioner not a cardiologist or a specialist.

The clearances on the sire are all in place, except for his eye clearance, which is dated 2007. He may have an up to date eye clearance and it just may not have been entered into the database.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

I chose the one with the green collar because she is looking at the camera and even seems to be smiling. She looks like she has lots of personality. Of course, it's just a picture.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It is very hard to tell--and I am a novice--but I would go for orange. But, stacked photos shouldn't be the only consideration. Temperament is very important and movement.

And I agree with Tahnee. If you want a show/breeding prospect you would do better to look elsewhere. The odds are more in your favor of having a good hopeful if you go with a breeder that shows (can help you and has successful dogs) and has clearances on their dogs.


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

Tahnee GR said:


> Looking at the pedigrees and OFA, I personally would not take any of the 3 remaining girls as a conformation prospect to build a breeding program on. The dam of the litter does not have an elbow clearance and neither does her mother, her heart clearance is only from a practitioner not a cardiologist or a specialist.
> 
> The clearances on the sire are all in place, except for his eye clearance, which is dated 2007. He may have an up to date eye clearance and it just may not have been entered into the database.


Linda,
Thank You for your honest opinion. I do believe the dam has elbow clearance, but you are correct that her mother does not. Here is the link to the OFA website http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1303912#animal , if I am reading this incorrectly I appologize. And I guess that I didn't realize that the heart clearance from a practitioner was that big of deal. Again I am new to this and I am still learning. I hope I haven't made a poor choice on my first golden. I guess I should have done some more research. If I turn them down at this point I will loose my deposit.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

If you are serious about showing and breeding, I would go with a different litter, even if it means losing the deposit. The amount of money you will lose is minimal compared to the amount of money that gets sunk into showing and breeding.If you would be happy ending up with a loving pet, then go for it. The pup may end up being able to have a show career after all, but I think you would have better chances with a pup from a different litter.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If you want a nice conformation prospect, there are some great breeders in Missouri and its surrounding areas. Conformation competition in Goldens is fierce. Your best bet is to go with a breeder who shows, and to go with a litter with either a finished sire or dam, or both. Some places to start are: 

http://www.goldenbreedersresource.org/index.html List kennels and litters

http://www.grcgsl.org/ Golden Retriever Club

www.everythinggolden.com On-Line magazine devoted to Goldens. There are litter listings and stud dog listings. Often you can contact the stud dog owners to see what litters their boys have sired.

www.goldenretrieverweekly.com


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

arpenn said:


> Linda,
> Thank You for your honest opinion. I do believe the dam has elbow clearance, but you are correct that her mother does not. Here is the link to the OFA website http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1303912#animal , if I am reading this incorrectly I appologize. And I guess that I didn't realize that the heart clearance from a practitioner was that big of deal. Again I am new to this and I am still learning. I hope I haven't made a poor choice on my first golden. I guess I should have done some more research. If I turn them down at this point I will loose my deposit.


Sorry-my bad (and old eyes)! You are correct-she does have an elbow clearance, it is just her eye clearance that is not listed. Her eye clearance may be done but just not listed. You will need to request a copy of that from her owner.

I still would not choose from that litter for a conformation prospect. I can't see that the breeders of the litter compete in conformation and the lack of an elbow clearance on Reba, and Reba's mother, is still a deal breaker for me. Elbow clearances have been around for a long time and there is no reason for them not to have been done.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

There is a wealth of information on the Golden Retriever Club of America website too, including the Code of Ethics

http://www.grca.org/thegrca/code.html


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Take a look at this thread and note the stack, etc. on these puppies. These are puppies who have probably been stacked weekly since they were old enough to stand

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=74468


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Also, the mom's pedigree has some very nice field dogs in it, some of the best. But those dogs wouldn't have made it in the show ring. I think it's a nice blending of field and conformation lines, but conformation for goldens is so competitive, it's very difficult to get a competitive breed dog from such a pedigree (not that it doesn't happen, but for a novice just starting out I wouldn't be taking my chances if I was truly serious about wanting to show).


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> Also, the mom's pedigree has some very nice field dogs in it, some of the best. But those dogs wouldn't have made it in the show ring. I think it's a nice blending of field and conformation lines, but conformation for goldens is so competitive, it's very difficult to get a competitive breed dog from such a pedigree (not that it doesn't happen, but for a novice just starting out I wouldn't be taking my chances if I was truly serious about wanting to show).


I agree with Loisiana, and even the performance dogs in the dam's pedigree are pretty far back and could well be watered down, if the breedings were not done with an eye to producing performance dogs.

It's hard for people to understand sometimes, but it takes just one generation to throw out the window all the carefully planned breedings that a serious breeder in any venue does.


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> If you are serious about showing and breeding, I would go with a different litter, even if it means losing the deposit. The amount of money you will lose is minimal compared to the amount of money that gets sunk into showing and breeding.If you would be happy ending up with a loving pet, then go for it. The pup may end up being able to have a show career after all, but I think you would have better chances with a pup from a different litter.





Tahnee GR said:


> I still would not choose from that litter for a conformation prospect. I can't see that the breeders of the litter compete in conformation and the lack of an elbow clearance on Reba, and Reba's mother, is still a deal breaker for me. Elbow clearances have been around for a long time and there is no reason for them not to have been done.


First thank you for your honest opinions, that is what I asked for, as hard as it is to hear. So does everyone concur with Linda and Jodie that this is not a good litter for conformation or breeding prospect? :no: I wish I had found this forum earlier. The problem I have run into is that most breeders I have been in contact with will not sell a pup on open registration for showing or breeding to someone new. Or they require a dog to earn a championship before it can be breed. I really don't want to co-own a dog, I have seen this in the cattle business and it usually causes hard feelings and it is seldom a good deal for the buyer. So how is a person to get started? I knew this litter was not the top of the top, but I thought it would be a good solid starting point where I might be able to get some showing experience so maybe some of the other breeders would at least give me the time of day. I would love to hear the opinions of some others also.


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

I know where you are coming from. I am very new to all of this myself and I was in your shoes several years ago. I luckily searched and searched and finally found a breeder (out of state) who was willing to sell me a puppy with full registration for me to show. I had never even been in the ring before, but she trusted me, and sold me the puppy. It is hard to gain that trust. There are breeders out there though that will do it. The best way to do it (IMO) is to go to shows! Make yourself known. Let them know that you are serious and have the time (and money) to commit to it. It is not an inexpensive hobby and it takes a lot of time. If breeders become comfortable with you and see that, hey this person is taking a honest interest in this sport, then I think you will find one that is willing to part with a pup on full registration. The other thing you could look into is a co-ownership until the puppy gets it's clearances. Not limited registration and then lifted because then you couldn't show. You have to understand where people are coming from on this and respect it. The good, reputable breeders have been doing this a very long time and have had so much blood, sweat, and tears into their breedings, that they just want to protect their lines and the breed. They have to be 100% sure that someone they sell to is going to get clearances, not breed to the yahoo down the road, and hopefully (depending on the agreement) show this puppy to it's potential. There is almost nothing I hate to see more than to see a good, quality, bitch that fell through the cracks and was sold to someone who didn't follow through on their end to show the dog to it's potential. When picking out puppies at 8 weeks, you can do your best at evaluating but often times things change and pick pup may not be pick pup at age 2. And the breeder would kick themselves every time they think about the puppy they sold in spot number three that ended up looking like it could have finished and is now a breeding machine. I am not making any assumptions about you personally when I write this. I am just trying to give you the feel as what others may be thinking when approached to sell a "newbie" a puppy. Good luck in your search for the perfect puppy. Oh, and yes, I agree with the others that this may not be the best litter if you are serious about showing. Competition is brutal in goldens and you want to do the absolute best you can and that includes having the best pedigree you can, which this is not.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

It might be easier to start with a dog than a bitch. You will need to "prove" yourself to good, well-established breeders before they will be comfortable entrusting you with a conformation/breeding prospect. You can do this by joining a local Golden or all-breed kennel club, going to shows and talking to people.

It's not that there aren't good puppies out there-with every litter I have, I end up placing lovely puppies as pets. Pick puppy out of my Trouble/Truman litter went to a pet home and will be neutered. I wanted a girl, the only other show home I had wanted a girl, and so the boy went to a pet home. I used to be able to place show prospects with friends, but they are all actively competing and breeding themselves now  This happens to a lot of smaller breeders.

So, join clubs, help out, learn, attend shows and introduce yourself to people 

And I'm not saying it's impossible for a show puppy to come from a litter like the one you are looking at, but in my experience, it just doesn't work out well in the long run.

And everyone has their "starter" dog, the one they bought before they knew better, the one they learned on, spayed or neutered, and went on to get better dogs later. It's just best to start with the best dog you can.

And I don't have a problem at all with requiring a championship before a co-owned dog, especially one owned by a newbie, is bred. I think it makes a lot of sense from the breeders point of view.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

We are newbies to conformation and our breeder talked to us a lot before agreeing to sell us the pick male. They are Jack's co-owners until he finishes his champion. We also contracted not to breed him until he finishes his champion and has all his clearances. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a newbie to finish a dog/bitch before they breed him/her. I would be skeptical of a breeder who didn't have that concern with a newbie who they don't know, to be perfectly honest. 

I second Tahnee's suggestion to start with a dog rather than a bitch. It seems more common for breeders to keep the pick female and if they can find a show home for the pick male then that works well for everyone.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I would look elsewhere for a puppy--remember you are going for the long haul! It is true that it will be harder to get a show potential female from a breeder as a novice, but it is not impossible. Co-owns are not necessarily that bad depending on your relationship. My girl is my first, and while I have full ownership I wouldn't have minded co-ownership at all. I mean, it is a big opportunity for you to get your foot in the door!

Starting with a male is not that bad of a deal in the long term either. Some days I wish I would've gotten a boy first. If you get a nice boy and finish him, you can then have the opportunity to get a female pup from your male. That's not a bad option, IMO.


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

Thank you all for your opinions and tips they are all well taken. I understand that for the show ring I probably will have to look elsewhere. My daughter wants to do some obedience and possibly agility so we are going to go ahead and get one of these pups. You may not agree with that decision but we feel that is the right thing to do. The breeder has been really nice and helpful and my kids would be crushed at this point to not get one of these pups. I have a lot to learn about the showing dogs and I can take my time and learn some more before I get my next one. It also wouldn't be right to back out of an agreement the day before I am to get the pup. I still want to try and pick the best pup of the three. It seems from the voting that several favor the orange collar pup but those votes may not be from a conformation stand point. Almost 300 views on this post and only 9 people voted so a pretty low percentage. Thanks Again.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Starting out in obedience and agility is actually a good idea-you will meet other Golden enthusiasts, and can even join a obedience or specialty club. Many conformation people, myself included, started out in obedience. Your daughter may also enjoy Junior Showmanship, where it is not the dog that is judged but the young handler.

This will give you time to look around, decide if you do want to compete in conformation and if so, to select a good breeder who specializes in that.

I would agree that, based on the pictures you provided, Orange Collar is probably your best bet. Good structure is very important for an obedience or agility dog as well, as there is a lot of stress on their bodies and joints in competition.

Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

arpenn said:


> First thank you for your honest opinions, that is what I asked for, as hard as it is to hear. So does everyone concur with Linda and Jodie that this is not a good litter for conformation or breeding prospect? :no: I wish I had found this forum earlier. The problem I have run into is that most breeders I have been in contact with will not sell a pup on open registration for showing or breeding to someone new. Or they require a dog to earn a championship before it can be breed. I really don't want to co-own a dog, I have seen this in the cattle business and it usually causes hard feelings and it is seldom a good deal for the buyer. So how is a person to get started? I knew this litter was not the top of the top, but I thought it would be a good solid starting point where I might be able to get some showing experience so maybe some of the other breeders would at least give me the time of day. I would love to hear the opinions of some others also.


This has been a wonderful thread in that you have been given some accurate, useful insider information- worth its weight in golden retriever. I like Orange the best, bc the first girl has eyes way too round for me and the last girl is so straight in her rear w/ no angles. However, I completyely agree that the pups arent stacked properly so it is impossible to say. The chances of coming up with a show pup from a breeding to the mom are not very high. I see the Faera way back to match up with Star, but it is faint. Maybe the way to go is yes, to take the best pup here(orange) as long as the health issues pan out, spay her, and dedicate yourself to making her your partner and your friend. Show her at matches and fun-days, take her to handling class and obedience class, compete a little in obedience- get to know the world of goldens with her so that you can be a responsible breeder yourself someday. Paying dues isnt for nothing- it is a learning-time. If you put some good titles on this pup and educate yourself about conformation, then you'll be in a better place to ask someone to trust you with a true show prospect.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think your plan is good- sorry I posted my comment before reading to the end of the thread. Orange girl might make a nice pet, as long as all the clearances are in place.

I want to add that a show pup who is specials quality or who can finish a CH at a reasonable financial cost is a relativel gamble even with show dog hall of fame parents and pick of the litter. Any little thing can go wrong between 8 weeks and 3 years- from the dog's height to her bite. . . It's important to only choose a pup you can love and care for no matter what- yes, that can mean you place the pup in a show home if you're a breeder, but for most of us golden owners/lovers/ it means you might not have that show dog- and being okay with that too.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I think you've gotten some really fantastic advice here. 

I'm going to be getting a puppy soon and want to do obedience and some agility. I hope to do well with the dog, get titles, and prove myself. I don't want to start a breeding program, but I'm fascinated by conformation and the breed ring. In the future, I'd like to get a 'pick' male puppy and finish him to his championship. I think that the work that I do with the puppy I take home this summer will be crucial in proving myself to a breeder that I am dedicated and active in the breed. I think that this dog will be crucial to you as well. While it remains to be seen if this bitch of yours will or will not develop into a champion, you can still have fun and learn! Go to shows, meet breeders, and gain experience. I'd recommend waiting to breed until you find a puppy with a better pedigree and history of clearances in the lines. You want to start from the best stock possible. Meanwhile, love that new puppy! How exciting!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well congrats on your decision! Can't wait to see pics of your new girl. What are you going to name her?


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

arpenn said:


> First thank you for your honest opinions, that is what I asked for, as hard as it is to hear. So does everyone concur with Linda and Jodie that this is not a good litter for conformation or breeding prospect? :no: I wish I had found this forum earlier. The problem I have run into is that most breeders I have been in contact with will not sell a pup on open registration for showing or breeding to someone new. Or they require a dog to earn a championship before it can be breed. I really don't want to co-own a dog, I have seen this in the cattle business and it usually causes hard feelings and it is seldom a good deal for the buyer. So how is a person to get started? I knew this litter was not the top of the top, but I thought it would be a good solid starting point where I might be able to get some showing experience so maybe some of the other breeders would at least give me the time of day. I would love to hear the opinions of some others also.


 Yes, I would also agree that this puppy is not a good prospect for a show/breeding prospect. The breeder doesn't appear that she is showing the dogs so she isn't going to be able to be of help to you, either and it isn't easy to show goldens. You need help from your breeder in picking the puppy and mentoring you along.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I agree with the other posts--I do not know anything about the dogs in the dam's background, and I also feel that just on paper, the dam's side does not appear to offer strong conformation potential.

But since your family is eager to have one of these pups, then have a blast with which ever one you choose. Since orange girl has what appears to be a longer body, she should be a nice agility dog, and have more flexibility, than the others. And don't be afraid to show in conformation--you just may catch the eye of a breeder or two who will be impressed by your thirst for knowledge and enthusiasm, and offer you a chance to own one of their pick pups.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

arpenn said:


> Thank you all for your opinions and tips they are all well taken. I understand that for the show ring I probably will have to look elsewhere. My daughter wants to do some obedience and possibly agility so we are going to go ahead and get one of these pups. You may not agree with that decision but we feel that is the right thing to do. . Thanks Again.


So knowing that you're now looking for an obedience/agility prospect there's another side of choosing. Pick an outgoing puppy - pick a (relatively) high energy puppy. Pick the one the isn't afraid of weird sounds. See of you can get puppy to retrieve a bit of crumpled paper and pick the one that's really interested in a piece of food in your hand - not the end-all-be-all but you're going to need confidence and an unflappable nature in your agility/obedience dog - it's easier (SO MUCH EASIER) when you get one that has those qualities built-in rather than one that you have to add in. Does this breeder do anything with her dogs? Obedience? Agility? Perhaps she can help you choose based on the characteristics she's seen so far. 

btw: I agree with the posters above re orange's angles - and I respect you for trying to honor your commitment to this breeder (and your kids) - but know too that there's a lot more to an obedience/agility prospect than simply not being show quality....

Erica


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> What are you going to name her?


We decided to name her Lacey. 

I want to thank everyone for their comments and encouragement. I talked to the breeder again today and she had just returned from the vet with the pups. Her vet shows in conformation so they evaluated the pups while they were there and they both agree that the orange collar pup is the best. She said her ribs are sprung better, has a deaper chest and better balance and a nice head.


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## Thor0918 (Feb 28, 2008)

arpenn said:


> For her name we decided on Lacey.
> 
> I want to thank everyone for their comments and encouragement. I talked to the breeder again today and she said she took the pups to her vet that shows in conformation and they both feel the orange collared pup is the best. She said her ribs are sprung better, has a deaper chest and better balance and a nice head.


Enjoy her. Thursday is going to be quite a day. I'm going back to look at the pics now to meet Lacey!


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

Sorry Double Post


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## Goldnbear (Dec 28, 2009)

Good luck tomorrow getting the puppy! Post pics of your kids and Lacey when you get time.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Good luck with picking up your pup! Can't wait to see pictures!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

So... it is Thursday! How did it go? Did you get orange girl? PICTURES!!


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## CosbysMommy (Feb 20, 2010)

so... wheres the puppy pics?!


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

We were a little busy last night with the new pup so I didn't get a chance to get online. We did get the orange collared pup. She was the best of the three. She also has the best personality of the three. She has really good movement, she almost floats along. The first picture is on the ride home, second picture is after her bath, and the third one self explanitory, last 3 play time. I will post some more pictures later with the kids.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

That's a lot of toys-she's not going to be just a teeny bit spoiled is she  She's a cutie.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

no no no, I will not get puppy fever yet. It is way too soon.

Once I get home and let Flip out of the crate I will be cured again.

She's precious!


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

She is darling! What is her name? Sorry if it is in the thread somewhere.


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## arpenn (Feb 22, 2010)

We named her Lacey. She has a great personality. I can't wait to see how she develops.


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## CosbysMommy (Feb 20, 2010)

I can't believe I am just now coming to look at the pics! She's so cute! :-D


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I haven't posted in this thread but have read along as you've been trying to choose your little girl. It has been a learning experience for me too. What do I know, I think all Goldens are gorgeous and 'show' worthy. Good luck as you start your venture into Competition and Breeding. I think Lacy is as cute as they come and has a bright future ahead of her.


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## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

Super Cute!! Congratulations!!! Enjoy and have fun with your new addition!


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

:--big_grin:

Oh Happy Puppy Time! She is CUTE!


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