# Junior hunter and concerns and BG algae



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Hildae said:


> I would like to get her the junior hunter title. Is this going to be impossible without forced fetch?


Yes, a JH title is very basic and any dog with a desire to retrieve should be able to get it.


Hildae said:


> Recommendations on positive training for a retriever?


If by "positive training" you mean never correcting the dog or even saying "no", I recommend you don't waste your time and money.
Positive training to me is training that results in a well mannered, happy, confident and accomplished dog.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

SRW said:


> Yes, a JH title is very basic and any dog with a desire to retrieve should be able to get it.
> 
> If by "positive training" you mean never correcting the dog or even saying "no", I recommend you don't waste your time and money.
> Positive training to me is training that results in a well mannered, happy, confident and accomplished dog.


No I mean positive as in not hitting, pinching, shocking or in other ways physically affecting the dog. I'm fine with saying no and correcting a dog without physical punishments. I'm not happy if I have to use pain to make my dog cooperate.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Hildae said:


> No I mean positive as in not hitting, pinching, shocking or in other ways physically affecting the dog. I'm fine with saying no and correcting a dog without physical punishments.


E collars are like any training aid, they can be abused. Used properly and e collar is the single most humane and effective training tool available. 
You can train any way you like but don't expect to get far in field training if you don't use the proven tools and methods for success.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

SRW said:


> E collars are like any training aid, they can be abused. Used properly and e collar is the single most humane and effective training tool available.
> You can train any way you like but don't expect to get far in field training if you don't use the proven tools and methods for success.


It's just not for me. I respect that others can choose that way because it's the standard or traditional way, but it's not our way of choice, even if that means we can't get anywhere with JR hunter. No loss for me if it doesn't happen, it'll still be good training and together time even if she can't pass the test for some reason.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Hildae said:


> I'm also worried about having a dog in bodies of water since we do sometimes get blue green algae blooms here. What do you do to keep your dogs safe. I love my dogs so much I want to do anything I can to keep them safe.


When the water looks suspicious, I don't train in the water or let them get into the water on their own ... _*period!*_ 
I heard more reports of blue-green algae in 2019 and 2020 than ever before, particularly in the upper midwest.
FTGoldens


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> When the water looks suspicious, I don't train in the water or let them get into the water on their own ... _*period!*_
> I heard more reports of blue-green algae in 2019 and 2020 than ever before, particularly in the upper midwest.
> FTGoldens


I'm told it can be present in fatal amounts even if the water looks "good." That is what scares me. There were several dogs who died in the area last year and I don't want to be the next sad story. Is there a way to test the water yourself or anything? Anyone know?


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

I've not seen any sort of "self test" for BG algae. 
I've never heard of a problem with water that doesn't have a visible bloom.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> I've not seen any sort of "self test" for BG algae.
> I've never heard of a problem with water that doesn't have a visible bloom.


I read that the organism can die off and appear to be gone, but the toxins are still in the water for a time.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

No first hand knowledge of it, but here is a test kit.





Amazon.com: 5Strands | Blue Green Algae Test | at Home Lake Pond Water Sample | Collection Results in 15 Minutes (1): Health & Personal Care


Buy 5Strands | Blue Green Algae Test | at Home Lake Pond Water Sample | Collection Results in 15 Minutes (1) on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orders



www.amazon.com


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

We treat the ponds that we train in with algicide. It turns the water blue. We buy it at the local farm supply store.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> We treat the ponds that we train in with algicide. It turns the water blue. We buy it at the local farm supply store.


Copper sulfate


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

You can train your dog without a FF or an e-collar if you have a biddable dog with a high desire to retrieve, certainly to a JH level. It also helps to have some experience in training dogs (beyond basic manners). There are universal "laws" that apply regardless of what you are training for. (Break things down into small pieces, gradually increase difficulty; dogs generalize poorly, etc. etc.) I trained my current dog to an SH without an e-collar, He is very biddable and a fanatic retriever and hunt tests are just something I do because he loves it and it gives us both a break from obedience. You are not likely to be able to train for modern field trials without an e-collar.

An e-collar gives you more control at a distance and a FF comes in handy. Find some local OB people or online resources for teaching a fetch with little or no force. Cornerstone Gun Dog Academy is a pretty good online program that doesn't rely on e-collars. Your bigger problem will likely be finding the grounds to train on and people to train with who won't give you a hard time about not using an e-collar. If you train alone, you'll need to be prepared to spend a lot of money on equipment, like wingers. 

BG algae is becoming a bigger and bigger problem in Washington state (where I live) in late summer and early fall. It is a seasonal problem in most areas. In whatever state you are in, the Dept of Ecology, or whatever the equivalent is, may have a web site with information about when it is most likely and historical information for many water bodies. One solution is to simply not train during periods when it is likely. That is what I do, but that approach puts a serious damper on the annual training window. I also do not train in any area with cheat grass (which is most of eastern Washington) after the cheat grass matures. And you can't train water when the water is ice or too cold. So, effectively, my window for hunt training (outside of my own yard) is the 3 months between the end of March through about the end of June, which coincides with the peak of Obedience trials around here. Plus, I work a full-time job. If you are serious about hunt training, you will probably want to train more often than that. Find the nearest hunt training club in your area for information about where you can train. If you are lucky, they will have grounds you can use if you join the club. 

Good luck! Tell us a little about your dog and his pedigree. A pedigree can reveal a lot about your chances for success.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You can absolutely train a dog for JH without FF and certainly without an ecollar. I just wouldn't want to. Like Palouse said, access to grounds and training partners will be the hardest part.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I would take many pages and a better writer than I to explain all the reasons for and benefits of force fetch.
In short, it is a foundational concept on which much of the future training will be built on. 
You can achieve a level of success without FF or an e collar. It will, almost certainly, be far more stressful on both dog and handler. 
For many, probably most retrievers, a verbal reprimand is a far more severe correction than a nick from an e collar.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

There is a growing population of hunters who are training their dogs to hunt using "force free" methods. I'm not a hunter, but I've read that it's definitely possible to have an effective hunting dog without force fetch or e-collar training... it's only if you want to _compete _at the upper level trials that you run into a need for skills that are very hard to train without the use of an e-collar.

Anyway, I'm no expert but I did a quick Google search on "force free hunting dog training" and came up with a bunch of resources. You won't know if it's possible until you try!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Keep in mind that a dogs perception of what is force, reprimand, positive or negative is not the same as you might think.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

SRW said:


> I would take many pages and a better writer than I to explain all the reasons for and benefits of force fetch.
> In short, it is a foundational concept on which much of the future training will be built on.
> You can achieve a level of success without FF or an e collar. It will, almost certainly, be far more stressful on both dog and handler.
> For many, probably most retrievers, a verbal reprimand is a far more severe correction than a nick from an e collar.


I'm not debating that a shock collar can be a reasonable tool in reasonable hands. I understand that in some cases it can be a real life saver. I don't necessarily hate them or think they should never be used. My 2 adult dogs have a rock solid recall even in distracting circumstances, I don't hit, yell, pinch, shock or otherwise scare them to make them do it, we've worked hard on that. My dogs can retrieve items I drop, turn on or off light switches for me, find my cell phone on request, get me a bottle of water from the kitchen, open doors with flip handles or buttons for me, get me a kleenex if I ask (ok it comes with a little slobber but so what) and do all the normal stuff like sit, stay, down, give, hi five, roll over, spin left/right, go to place, and a couple of silly tricks like "say your prayers" and "bang." I didn't need any punishments or aversion items to get them to do those things. I want to believe that I can teach the puppy to get a duck and give it without pinching or toe hitches or forcing things. I at least want to try.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I am not trying to dissuade you from pursuing a new endeavor with your dog -- quite the opposite! I instead would like you to keep an open mind rather than deciding you're not going to do something before you've even started 
Field training is a group sport. Much of the training you do one-on-one with your dog, but eventually you MUST train with other people. In my experience, "no force" trained dogs are often a disruption to effective group training because they are either out of control or undermotivated. The former is just plain annoying and a quick and easy way to get yourself un-invited from any group. The latter requires changing what the whole group does to accommodate your dog. When this accommodation could be easily avoided and your dog brought up to speed by a healthy dose of modern retriever training, well frankly it's annoying to watch the owner adamantly refuse to train their dog. 
This is not speculation on my point...it's spoken from years of experience!
So while you certainly don't need to make a decision now, or do anything more than continue to navigate the journey of field work if you wish to pursue it with your dog...please keep an open mind to training techniques that are going to be available to you.
Best of luck.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

SRW said:


> For many, probably most retrievers, a verbal reprimand is a far more severe correction than a nick from an e collar.


For any of my dogs the word "NO" is far more of a correction then a nick from an e-collar. I believe there is a lot of misconception and misuse of e-collars. A good trainer or mentor can make a world of difference.

My first pro trained dog was trained by what I will refer to as an "old school" trainer. I believe the methods were pushed through quickly, harsher then necessary, and he had a one training method approach. The dog either passed or failed, mine passed. I feel guilty for putting him through it now that I know better, but he loved it and has the highest drive of any dog I've ever owned.

That method is not acceptable to me today, and I have a much better trainer. Our new trainer has an individual approach to each dog. He's currently training my puppy and my 2 year old, both goldens, both completely different dogs requiring different methods

It's funny because a few weeks ago I made a comment that my puppy was being taught a conditioned hold and not yet a ff. The next week we started what I would consider ff, no matter what name it is given. His tail is wagging and he is completely happy during lessons. No signs of stress. He can't wait to grab the bumper. 

You can get a JH title with a conditioned hold but on a 90 degree day when your the 25th dog to run the water series and the duck is really nasty most dogs will drop it to shake when they come out of the water unless taught better. You have to be able to get them to pick it back up and deliver to hand. I failed a JH test on the last retrieve because my dog dropped the 2nd water bird AT MY FEET, but refused to pick it up and deliver to hand. (I had also entered a QUAD JH that weekend, never again) It taught me a really valuable lesson about the benefit of force fetch. This is with a dog that I had trained using all positive methods, Moe. He had health issues as a puppy and we never thought he'd run much less run a test. That dog is now being trained by my husband primarily with guidance from our trainer and is ready for his SH this Spring. He did get his JH title right after I came home and worked on FF, no table or toe pinching. 

I'm about as loving and gentle as a person can be with there dogs. I can hold my e-collar in my hand and use it on myself for the setting I train my dogs with. My dogs get excited at the sight of a collar because they know it's play time. Field training is so much fun. Find the right trainer and group and you will love it.


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## Spiderpig (Nov 7, 2019)

I think others addressed that it will depends on the dog, how far you want to go with titles and testing etc.

So resources to look at: I liked “Force-free Gundog Training” by Jo Laurens. It is UK based but heavy on the psychology and general training so can help you help yourself.

I would also get something like “Control Unleashed” or behavioral adjustment training. Things like understanding how to apply the premack principle will make your training much easier.

If you have anything in your area a sports or agility foundations class can also be useful.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Hildae said:


> I don't hit, yell, pinch, shock or otherwise scare them to make them do it


Good because that isn't training and it would not work.



K9-Design said:


> well frankly it's annoying to watch the owner adamantly refuse to train their dog.


JMO, as often as not, that is what "positive only" and "force free" training are. Excuses used by people that won't or don't train there dogs. I am not saying it can't be done, it just rarely is. When it is actually done it is not "force free" or "positive only" from the dogs perspective. Again JMO.


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