# Breed Standard... long legged???



## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

I have a four year old rescue boy that luckily came with AKC papers. He is absolutely gorgeous in my eyes, but I know that in the judging ring... my opinion gets thrown out the window. Last weekend I went to my local dog show to take a look at the Goldens; try to learn from what I was seeing. I asked an acquaintance; a Golden Breeder, owner, and handler, if I could bring my Golden Koda there and get her opinion on his physiology based on the breed standard. 

Long story short, on the last day, a brought him to her. She said that he was "leggy." However, his measurement from the ground to his withers is exactly 24in. If that is the case, is he really leggy? 

I really want to show this boy. I think that he is an excellent Golden boy who came from a tragic background and could possibly, with hard work and dedication, be a champion. I have had him a little over a year. His coat is finally in the position that I can see him becoming a showman. He still needs to gain quite a bit of weight... maybe 10 or more lbs, but I think after that he'd be all set. 

So my questions: Koda is still a "skinny boy" a pup that does need to bulk up or weight up, that being the case, could his weight be making him look "leggy"? I know that the breed standard says that a Golden should not be long in the leg, but the GRCA judging book says that Goldens should not be low to the ground either, and gives judges the information of a 10:11 ratio for a Golden Retriever; how would I determine if my boy is in that ratio? Also, how would I determine if he is long in the leg? 

Any information on this subject would be very appreciated, thanks!

Here are links to GRCA judging books and measurement pages:
http://www.grca.org/pdf/education/measure_color.pdf
http://www.grca.org/pdf/education/GRCAAKCGuideJudgingtheGRMay09.pdf 

Most of the pics on here were taken when Koda was still pretty swollen from the fridged cold; here is his story:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/general-golden-retriever-rescue-forum/91892-i-need-some-serious-advice.html


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Can you please post a photo of him standing, from the side?


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

Yep, I will post one this evening Pointgold.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Do you have any standing (from the side) pictures of him? 

Maybe see if there are any CCA events in your area. You will have judges critiquing your dog. They are looking for breed standard specifically, not necessarily what works in the ring. But I think they may be helpful to you.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Is he intact? Is he on full registration? They have to be both for AKC conformation showing.

I would be interested to see a photo as well. Leggy is relative....some dogs in the breed ring are very short on leg IMO.


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

I rescued him from his breeder. His story is here: STORY. He came with his puppy papers that no one had sent in yet. His background... or should I say his breeder was very dodgy... like she was trying to hide information. She had things for me to sign... waiving her of responsibility for his health and everything, but due to his predicament... I couldn't leave him in the bitter cold and weather. He was kept outside with no shelter. His water was completely frozen and food was covered by snow. He looked very unhappy. She said she was a 501C3, she had 12 or 13 different dogs of different breeds; from an Australian Shepherd, to a Parson Russell Terrier, to Koda's mom. She also had 7 horses on her property and told me that they were also available through her "rescue." 

The vet told me at his first appointment that if I hadn't rescued him when I did, that he wouldn't have made it very much longer because he had several types of intestinal parasites and had not only a swollen body, but also swollen extremities. His pads were cracked and he lost 16 pounds in 4 months from loosing just the swelling alone. His coat is finally "healthy," and his vet swears up and down that I switched him with another dog! I will post some pics later on this evening. I haven't showed him yet, so I will need to go outside and have someone take a photo for me with him in stance.


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

What are CCA events?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm sorry if my post was not understood. If he is not intact he cannot be shown in conformation. He also needs to be on full registration...just wanted to make sure you had those bases covered.


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

*Pics*

He is fully registered. His breeder checked the box for full registration on his puppy papers, so I named him, filled out the papers, and sent them into AKC; once I knew that he was healthy and that things were going to work out with my other Golden, Lady (the two of them getting along). This summer with the heat and everything, he has really slimmed down. I've lost 50 pounds this summer and have been running with him a ton, so we both have slimmed down quite a bit. In the case of Koda, maybe he has slimed too much. I bought a bag of puppy food to mix with his regular food, so that he can start getting more calories per meal. Here are his side way stance pics.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

is he neutered???? if he is neutered he can't be in dog show anyway. 

Honestly I don't like critiquing others dogs .... the reality is that you love him and any critique we might give is going to seem like a criticism of a dog that you love very much. 

Remember that the golden retriever ring is one of the most competitive in the dog showing world and that showing a dog is very expensive.

He is a beautiful dog and as long as you love him that is all that matters. 

and congrats on your fifty pounds


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

First thank you so much for rescuing Koda, he just is precious and I love hearing he is in a happy loving home now 
second, congratulations to you on your weight loss! Wow! That is a major accomplishment and I just had to tell you how impressed I am! 
I hope if you don't end up showing in conformation that you and Koda will find something else obedience, agility or something to show him off to the world. He is beautiful!


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

First, I know nothing about dog shows. However, i went back and read the original thread. What a wonderful story. Thank you for rescuing such a handsome boy!

Also read the material on the criteria for Goldens in the show ring. Very interesting. Best of luck and congrats on the weight loss.


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

He is not neutered, I didn't want to neuter him until I knew weather or not I could show him.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GRCA-CCA 

You can look here for local CCA events. I hope you can find one near you? 

The other thing is to check around for the closest active golden club and active training club. Really make connections with the right people and remember to have fun with him whatever you do. 

Whether you do conformation or get into obedience, it's an expensive hobby. But it's really worthwhile because of all the special one-on-one bonding time you get to spend with your dog.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Jleway said:


> He is not neutered, I didn't want to neuter him until I knew weather or not I could show him.


Honestly I thik he is lovely.... I don't see showdog but grooming and such can do alot... from the photos I would like to see more front and rear angulation and he does look leggy to me. Remember the standard is a guideline but also has to do with what is winning and the trends that occur in the ring... I can't see his head really clearly or his ear or eye set and shape. 

I would also need video of him coming and going (running toward and away from the camera in a gait... ) as well as side movement... 

I think my best suggestion for you would be to find someone involved at the local golden retriever club or a professional handler and have your dog really evaluated... go to a show or two or six and see if your dog looks like what you see in the ring... does he move like what you see in the ring??? does his head look like what you see in the ring??? and make a decision... you can put him into a show and see how he does or find a local fun match and talk to the judge afterwards at a fun match they will be happy to talk to you... 

from what I can see I would not say he is a show dog but pictures can be deceiving and there is a lot more to a dog than side view... 

just my two cents


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jleway said:


> He is fully registered. His breeder checked the box for full registration on his puppy papers, so I named him, filled out the papers, and sent them into AKC; once I knew that he was healthy and that things were going to work out with my other Golden, Lady (the two of them getting along). This summer with the heat and everything, he has really slimmed down. I've lost 50 pounds this summer and have been running with him a ton, so we both have slimmed down quite a bit. In the case of Koda, maybe he has slimed too much. I bought a bag of puppy food to mix with his regular food, so that he can start getting more calories per meal. Here are his side way stance pics.


 
Here goes, with the disclaimer that A. He's a VERY lucky dog and B. You are sure to have a loving companion and a champion of the heart, show dog or not.

AND, it is difficult to truly assess a dog without hands on...

I'll be very honest here because showing dogs, and Goldens in particular, is very competitive and is not inexpensive. I hate to see people throw good money away with unrealistic expectations. He is not a dog that could be competitive in the show ring. He is somewhat straight stifled, and appears to have a straight upper arm. His head is not quite what is currently favored, although again, difficult to tell from a photo, and it is also turned and working the bait. He looks to have a solid topline, can't tell much but his tailset looks okay. I really don't find him "leggy". I think many dogs in the ring are too short on leg. I would not put any more weight on him. 
If you want to something fun with him in a competitive venue, look at obedience, agility, tracking, or some of the field events. 
Anyway you look at it, I think you are both fortunate to have found each other.


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## crazy daisy (Jul 3, 2011)

Jleway said:


> He is fully registered. His breeder checked the box for full registration on his puppy papers, so I named him, filled out the papers, and sent them into AKC; once I knew that he was healthy and that things were going to work out with my other Golden, Lady (the two of them getting along). This summer with the heat and everything, he has really slimmed down. I've lost 50 pounds this summer and have been running with him a ton, so we both have slimmed down quite a bit. In the case of Koda, maybe he has slimed too much. I bought a bag of puppy food to mix with his regular food, so that he can start getting more calories per meal. Here are his side way stance pics.


If you compare Koda to my Daisy, you see similar features. She's about 22" to the withers.

From what I dug up.... most of the AKC standards are based on a English Golden Retriever.

WHen they came to America, some American breeders did mix in Irish Setter for at least the red colored coat. So over time, the standard did adjust slightly... over generations, you eventually see the 2 distinct types of Golden Retriever, with their different features (listing some of the American traits):
- range in colors
- shape of the skull
- a longer snout
- thinner coat
- Feathering
... etc...


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Please do not try to put 10 lbs on your boy. He looks to be a lovely weight/build just as he is! What you see as bulk in the breed ring is 1) coat, 2) rib spring and possibly heavier bone overall and 3) muscle. He should not be getting empty calories in puppy food just to bulk him up. Being slim is the best thing to help protect his joints and keep him healthy. 

I'm not a conformation expert by any means, but my impression of him rings similar to that of Pointgold and Shalva -- he is beautiful, but not (from what I can see in just those few pictures) what is favored in the ring. 

But there are SO many great things you could do with him! Obedience, agility, field work, tracking, rally, etc. They are all fantastic ways to build an incredible bond with your dog and show him off to the world! And I'm sure he would be great at any number of them!

If you'd like to see what an AKC judge (well, 2 of them... possibly 3 or the third may be a highly qualified person who is VERY involved in the breed), I echo the suggestion of finding a local CCA (Certificate of Conformation Assessment) event your area. The benefit to this over putting him in the ring to test the waters is that the judges really take the time to explain to you what they do (and don't) see in your particular dog as compared to the standard. It's a fantastic learning experience and loads of fun! These events are put on by local Golden Retriever Clubs and are often done in conjunction with the club's annual specialty show (which is an amazing event to behold... so many goldens in one place!). 

Good luck with your boy and thank you so much for saving him!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I second (or third or fourth or whatever) the idea of getting involved with your local Golden club and maybe attending a CCA to have your boy evaluated. That'll give you much more of a sense of his conformation than anything anybody could judge from a photo.

Plus, he doesn't have to have winning conformation in order to have a lot of fun and success in other kinds of sports that your local GR club folks might be into, like agility, obedience, or rally O.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

crazy daisy said:


> WHen they came to America, some American breeders did mix in Irish Setter for at least the red colored coat. So over time, the standard did adjust slightly...


I hadn't heard this. Do you have any documentation on the mixing of Irish Setter in with Golden Retrievers?


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## crazy daisy (Jul 3, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I hadn't heard this. Do you have any documentation on the mixing of Irish Setter in with Golden Retrievers?


no real documentation... research here and there a couple years ago....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

crazy daisy said:


> no real documentation... research here and there a couple years ago....


Like, just some claims on blogs or something? I've heard a few times that there may have been Irish setters used in producing the original GR in Scotland in the 1860s and 1870s, but nothing about introducing more Irish Setters in America later on. Are you sure that's accurate?


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your opinions... I will definitely contact WRGC for a CCA, I think that that is the best advice I've gotten... I will also contact a handler. I think the idea of going to a CCA is brilliant, and even if Koda is assessed by them and I'm told that he isn't ring material, I will learn information from the experience to use in the future. I still want to get into showing, but maybe God is telling me right now is not the time, that I need to focus on my career. I just graduated from undergrad and am planning on attending graduate school either in the winter or early spring. So, maybe after graduate school, if I'm told Koda isn't show dog "standard," then I can contact a very reputable breeder and get a puppy to show later on down the road. I think after a CCA and contacting a handler, if I'm told to... I will get Koda into obedience. He is a very calm dog, but he is in desperate need of some serious socialization. I was told by my acquaintance last weekend about an obedience club here in town... and this club looks very legit. Who knows... there are so many amazing activities that people can get into with their pups these days, that I guess that the sky is the limit to how much fun that Koda, Lady, and I can have. Thank you all so much for your help. I do need some serious advice on how to groom him for I know nothing about grooming for the ring. Can anybody give some tips for grooming him before the CCA or the handler assessment???


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

crazy daisy said:


> If you compare Koda to my Daisy, you see similar features. She's about 22" to the withers.
> 
> From what I dug up.... most of the AKC standards are based on a English Golden Retriever.
> 
> ...


American Goldens and English Goldens are the same breed, the American standard was formulated a long time ago (the 30s) based on both the British standard and the dogs that were in America. In addition, the history of the Golden Retriever in North America is well documented and occurred after the stud books were closed for the breed, so it would not have been possible for the addition of Irish Setter blood in the US unless the people involved were being deceitful.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Jleway said:


> He is fully registered. His breeder checked the box for full registration on his puppy papers, so I named him, filled out the papers, and sent them into AKC; once I knew that he was healthy and that things were going to work out with my other Golden, Lady (the two of them getting along). This summer with the heat and everything, he has really slimmed down. I've lost 50 pounds this summer and have been running with him a ton, so we both have slimmed down quite a bit. In the case of Koda, maybe he has slimed too much. I bought a bag of puppy food to mix with his regular food, so that he can start getting more calories per meal. Here are his side way stance pics.


I think the leggy comment comes from the lack of angulation in the front and the rear so it appears that a lot of his body appears to be above his legs. He also has a lot of tuck up which makes his legs look longer. In addition to a CCA event, go to a AKC show and look at the type of dogs that are winning.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

What a wonderful person you are to rescue him. Koda is beautiful no matter what the outcome of the 'official' standards are. You've obviously done wonders with him and for him.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Jleway said:


> Thank you everyone for your opinions... I will definitely contact WRGC for a CCA, I think that that is the best advice I've gotten... I will also contact a handler. I think the idea of going to a CCA is brilliant, and even if Koda is assessed by them and I'm told that he isn't ring material, I will learn information from the experience to use in the future. I still want to get into showing, but maybe God is telling me right now is not the time, that I need to focus on my career. I just graduated from undergrad and am planning on attending graduate school either in the winter or early spring. So, maybe after graduate school, if I'm told Koda isn't show dog "standard," then I can contact a very reputable breeder and get a puppy to show later on down the road. I think after a CCA and contacting a handler, if I'm told to... I will get Koda into obedience. He is a very calm dog, but he is in desperate need of some serious socialization. I was told by my acquaintance last weekend about an obedience club here in town... and this club looks very legit. Who knows... there are so many amazing activities that people can get into with their pups these days, that I guess that the sky is the limit to how much fun that Koda, Lady, and I can have. Thank you all so much for your help. I do need some serious advice on how to groom him for I know nothing about grooming for the ring. Can anybody give some tips for grooming him before the CCA or the handler assessment???


Hi--I know nothing about showing but if you want to look at dogs who are currently winning in the ring, there are plenty of pictures on here. Look under pictures and in the showing section. The proud owners almost always post a picture when they land a title. 

Regarding the grooming, there is a grooming section on here, too, with lots of good tips and information.

Congrats on having such a gorgeous boy, and on losing 50 lbs! And on graduating and going on to grad school. I'd say you'll be pretty busy for a while.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Like, just some claims on blogs or something? I've heard a few times that there may have been Irish setters used in producing the original GR in Scotland in the 1860s and 1870s, but nothing about introducing more Irish Setters in America later on. Are you sure that's accurate?


AKC Website: "During the 19th century, gamekeepers at the Guisachan estate of Lord Tweedmouth at Inverness-Shire, Scotland, kept records of the development of the Golden.

Lord Tweedmouth bought his first Yellow Retriever in the mid-19th century. The location of Tweedmouth’s estate on the Tweed River had a direct bearing on the program pursued by the Lord to produce the characteristics he desired in his Yellow Retrievers. Along the shores of this river was the light-colored Tweed Water Spaniel, the hardy type of spaniel used for retrieving and known for their intelligence, courage and ability. The Tweed Water Spaniel had tremendous influence on Tweedmouth’s developing breed, as he bred his original stud "Nous" to "Belle," a Tweed Water Spaniel, to produce four yellow puppies. Later on down the line, cross-breedings integrated Irish Setter, Bloodhound, and more Tweed Water Spaniel to obtain the Golden Retriever we recognize today."

wikipedia: "The original cross was of a yellow-coloured Retriever, Nous, with a Tweed Water Spaniel female dog, Belle.[9] The Tweed Water Spaniel is now extinct but was then common in the border country. Marjoribanks had purchased Nous in 1865 from an unregistered litter of otherwise black wavy-coated retriever pups. In 1868, this cross produced a litter that included four pups; these four became the basis of a breeding program which included the Irish Setter, the sandy-coloured Bloodhound, the St. John's Water Dog of Newfoundland, and two more wavy-coated black Retrievers. The bloodline was also inbred and selected for trueness to Marjoribanks' idea of the ultimate hunting dog. His vision included a more vigorous and powerful dog than previous retrievers, one that would still be gentle and trainable."


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

OutWest said:


> Hi--I know nothing about showing but if you want to look at dogs who are currently winning in the ring, there are plenty of pictures on here. Look under pictures and in the showing section. The proud owners almost always post a picture when they land a title.
> 
> Regarding the grooming, there is a grooming section on here, too, with lots of good tips and information.
> 
> Congrats on having such a gorgeous boy, and on losing 50 lbs! And on graduating and going on to grad school. I'd say you'll be pretty busy for a while.


Thanks... I will definitely have to check those sections out... so for the grooming... go to the grooming section... like repost my grooming question with perhaps a link to this thread in the grooming section itself? 

I will have to check out some pics in the picture section... I will check out these now. 

Thanks OutWest!


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## Jleway (Mar 15, 2010)

By the way... Tippykayak... PuppyTao couldn't get more beautiful than it already is... I absolutely adore your blog! You already knew this though, lol! We will have to talk about photography sometime!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Just wanted to add ... this thread is a good example of why I love this forum. I found it fascinating. I have people every day telling me that Tucker is gorgeous and asking me if I show him. I have no clue if he has the appearance etc. that would serve him well in a ring. He doesn't look like the pictures I see posted on here of champion show dogs. But he really is gorgeous! And sometimes I wonder if I've shortchanged him by not investigating that for him. The truth is I don't have the money to invest in showing a dog... but there's a "proud parent" that wants to show off my baby boy...


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

OutWest said:


> Just wanted to add ... this thread is a good example of why I love this forum. I found it fascinating. I have people every day telling me that Tucker is gorgeous and asking me if I show him. I have no clue if he has the appearance etc. that would serve him well in a ring. He doesn't look like the pictures I see posted on here of champion show dogs. But he really is gorgeous! And sometimes I wonder if I've shortchanged him by not investigating that for him. The truth is I don't have the money to invest in showing a dog... but there's a "proud parent" that wants to show off my baby boy...


I would love to post photos up of Molly and have her evaluated, but I already know her slightly droopy eyelid from her entropion tacking would probably have her disqualified lol! People have asked, "isn't she show quality?" and I just say, "if she is, she would've been assigned to a show home!" I am glad she isn't show quality so that she can be with me


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Even with an absolutely show quality puppy, it is a long road from novice owner to finished champion, with so much to learn in every aspect from coat care to how the politics work. Once in a while, an absolutely exceptional dog comes along to make it look easy, but it is mainly an expensive, long learning process that takes staying power, support from a great mentor, and thick skin. 

It is a marathon more than a sprint. If you do not know exactly when your dog is in bloom/ready ( having trained enough to take advantage of that) and which judges will and will not consider your dog's style, then it is going to be expensive(7 to 25 thousand dollars). The question of a professional handler is important, with plusses and problems too. 

I bought an expensive puppy to show all the way back in 2006, and I did a similar posting of photos. Quite tactfully, some of the experienced breeders let me know it was an absolute no go and why, introduced me to the Blue Book to study conformation, and one breeder gave me weekly quizzes on different aspects of conformation until I could assess the strengths and weaknesses of a whole golden reliably- that took three years of weekly quizzes, along with attending shows and getting lessons on feeling structure in real goldens in real life. Having been naive, I was extremely disappointed. 

Then, I tried a second show puppy, but at his wellness exam he had a grade 4/5 heart murmur. I cried all the way to Connecticut, where I returned the pup to his breeder. 

On my third attempt, I did much better. I love the dog "showwise", and he did some winning from the puppy classes. He had strengths and weakness, but was beautiful & competitive. He did not pass his elbows though on his finals even though he did his prelims. He is now a dear pet dog who sleeps on my feet every night, but wow it was expensive showing him- so many miles driven, family events missed, and money spent.

Now, on try number four, more puzzle pieces are together with a helpful breeder, a structurally and tempermentally sound puppy who is winning, a sense of the judges and who will and will not like the dog's style, and a trusted professional handler for majors- however, it is 2012! It was a long apprenticeship, and still ongoing. I bet it will be 2018 before I feel experienced. 

Koda is not going to be a show ring golden, even though he is absolutely beautiful. It is hard to assess your dog with the big collar on, but to me there is a roll over his withers that does not come from being overweight. His tail set is too low, and he lacks muzzle fill/ his headpiece is not the proportions for a male in the show ring. He doesnt have enough bone to compete, and he is straight in his stifle.

My beloved golden Finn could never be a show dog, but yet he has my heart and he is so beautiful and classic in my eyes. It takes nothing away from Koda that his physical body does not match the requirements of the show ring. 

To show goldens, you have to be able to split emotions/love from the realistic assessment of the dog's physical qualities. That can be tough.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

From this picture...



I think this is where doing the CCA to learn more about your dog, getting involved with a local club and finding somebody who can help you with the grooming and handling might make a difference in showing him to his advantage. And take handling classes and drop in conformation classes. He looks like a nice dog to me. If he matures a little bit more and gains a little more coat, I think it may distract from whatever his flaws may be. If not to the point of getting points in the ring, then at least you will enjoy showing off your dog while you learn the ropes.

And more importantly - you will be learning all of this right now with him. Speaking as somebody from the obedience side, you start somewhere and learn with that first dog. So when you have the next dog you will be a pro right from the start. 

Personally speaking - I would be careful about putting big clunky/tight collars on him and leaving them on. That alone might train the fur and even muscle to develop what appears to be a roll around the neck. Try to keep the collars off unless you are going out walking, etc. This is just me speaking as somebody who doesn't know very much about conformation so I could be way out in left field wrong. Rolled leather collars are gentler around the neck anyway.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I just want to say something about a CCA .... 

I went to a CCA with one of my dogs where the judges were talking prior and stated point blank that they wanted to know what scores were before submitted so they didn't have to fail anyone. Honestly, that is troublesome to me and makes me question the value of a CCA at all. One dog that day did fail for temperament issues but every other dog passed. Were they all nice dogs sure, whatever, I don't know but the comments of the judges prior concerns me and as such I am not sure if all CCA's are like this one or if this is the exception but if this is typical the original poster may not get the information that she is looking for 

Second i want to address my leggy comment... the dog is very high in tuck which gives the appearance of a great deal of leg. Now I agree that many of the dogs in the ring are very short in leg and lets not even discuss the lack up upper arm but that is what is in the ring and that is what is winning. I remember having a conversation with a long time lab breeder that was lamenting the same thing... her dogs were more correct with upper arm and second thigh etc but when she put them in the ring they were stand outs and ended up taking up the rear in the line every time... and her question to herself was whether to bend to what's winning or to continue showing what's correct in the hopes that the judges someday somewhere would eventually get used to seeing a dog that was correct. I think she kept banging her head against the wall... but it was a long time ago. 

The reality is that showdogs go through trends and right now they have no upper arm and are short in leg amongst other things but we won't get into that... I have seen heads change, eye set change, colors.... etc etc ..... but that doesn't change the fact that you need a very brave judge to put up a dog that looks different from the masses in the ring even if that dog is correct (and I am not saying this one is, just more of a general comment). 

I do agree with ljilly in how much time, heartbreak, and money goes into showing a dog...


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

crazy daisy said:


> WHen they came to America, some American breeders did mix in Irish Setter for at least the red colored coat. So over time, the standard did adjust slightly... over generations, you eventually see the 2 distinct types of Golden Retriever, with their different features (listing some of the American traits):
> - range in colors
> - shape of the skull
> - a longer snout
> ...


Ahhh ........ NO!

The Irish Setter was added BEFORE the breed came to North America. The breed history on this side of the pond is well documented. All if the traits you've pointed out have always been with the breed since it got here, including the dark red coats and the occasional dash of white.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I just want to say something about a CCA ....
> 
> I went to a CCA with one of my dogs where the judges were talking prior and stated point blank that they wanted to know what scores were before submitted so they didn't have to fail anyone. Honestly, that is troublesome to me and makes me question the value of a CCA at all. One dog that day did fail for temperament issues but every other dog passed. Were they all nice dogs sure, whatever, I don't know but the comments of the judges prior concerns me and as such I am not sure if all CCA's are like this one or if this is the exception but if this is typical the original poster may not get the information that she is looking for



I will stick my neck out here and say you likely misunderstood the intent of their discussion about scores before submission. In the early days of the program I saw dogs not qualify by 1/2 point on one judge's score. Heartbreaking for the exhibitor and in some cases not the intent of that evaluator. While they felt the dog may not have been a stellar example of the breed when put up against the breed standard they felt it was a more than reasonable representative of the breed. So most now want to know if a dog they evaluated does not pass before they submit their sheets in case this is the situation. I have seen judges in AKC obedience do the same thing with a dog that is just below a 170 so to qualify the dog. On the other end of the spectrum I have seen a finished AKC Champion not qualify for a CCA at an event. And yes the TWO evaluators who did not pass the dog were aware the dog was not qualified pprior to submitting their score sheets.
In the early days I believe there were many, both exhibitors and observers, who believe the CCA would be a walk in the park. Thus many more dogs were entered who did not pass than do now. At some of the early events in the first couple of years it was not unusual for 20% or better to not pass. Once word was out that it was more than a give-me that a dog could pass exhibitors became must more discerning in what dogs they enter. 
*TRUST ME* it is *WELL WORTH* the original poster's while to enter a dog or at the very least observe a CCA event. I have been the CCA event secretary for my local club for the past 7 years and EVERY year I have learned something new from observing the evaluations.

And a little shameless advertisement here 
GSGRC will be hosting their 8th annual CCA event on October 6, 2012 in North Branch, NJ. There are still spots available, contact me for more info if interested or go to Garden State Golden Retriever Club

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. :wave:


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I will stick my neck out here and say you likely misunderstood the intent of their discussion about scores before submission. :


No unfortunately I didn't, it was something that I mentioned to the organizer and she and several others who were there overheard the same conversation... it was clear that they WANTED dogs to pass the CCA and were going to score in accordance, while of course some did better than others it was clear that they didn't want anyone to not pass... in a conversation afterwards the organizer also was dismayed at this conversation. 

judging by your reaction to this however, it would seem that this is the exception to the rule


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jleway said:


> By the way... Tippykayak... PuppyTao couldn't get more beautiful than it already is... I absolutely adore your blog! You already knew this though, lol! We will have to talk about photography sometime!


Thank you so much for saying that. Just start a photography thread or PM me and we can talk up and down about it.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> AKC Website: "During the 19th century, gamekeepers at the Guisachan estate of Lord Tweedmouth at Inverness-Shire, Scotland, kept records of the development of the Golden.
> 
> Lord Tweedmouth bought his first Yellow Retriever in the mid-19th century. The location of Tweedmouth’s estate on the Tweed River had a direct bearing on the program pursued by the Lord to produce the characteristics he desired in his Yellow Retrievers. Along the shores of this river was the light-colored Tweed Water Spaniel, the hardy type of spaniel used for retrieving and known for their intelligence, courage and ability. The Tweed Water Spaniel had tremendous influence on Tweedmouth’s developing breed, as he bred his original stud "Nous" to "Belle," a Tweed Water Spaniel, to produce four yellow puppies. Later on down the line, cross-breedings integrated Irish Setter, Bloodhound, and more Tweed Water Spaniel to obtain the Golden Retriever we recognize today."
> 
> wikipedia: "The original cross was of a yellow-coloured Retriever, Nous, with a Tweed Water Spaniel female dog, Belle.[9] The Tweed Water Spaniel is now extinct but was then common in the border country. Marjoribanks had purchased Nous in 1865 from an unregistered litter of otherwise black wavy-coated retriever pups. In 1868, this cross produced a litter that included four pups; these four became the basis of a breeding program which included the Irish Setter, the sandy-coloured Bloodhound, the St. John's Water Dog of Newfoundland, and two more wavy-coated black Retrievers. The bloodline was also inbred and selected for trueness to Marjoribanks' idea of the ultimate hunting dog. His vision included a more vigorous and powerful dog than previous retrievers, one that would still be gentle and trainable."


The outcrossing to Irish Setters happen in Britian in the nineteenth century. Although there were a few prototypical Goldens in North America in the nineteenth century (brought here by Dudley Marjoriebank's children) any pups they may have had in the US did not become part of the registered Golden Retriever breed. Goldens were brought back to North America in the early twentieth century after the stud books had been closed. All American (and Canadian since they came to Canada first) Goldens ultimately came wholly from British Goldens. 

Retrieverman has a done a LOT of research and writing about the history of Goldens and retrievers in general in his blog. It is great to read.


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