# White Goldens - Where to get em?



## trainwrecka (Oct 26, 2006)

My mom is currently looking for a "white" golden retriever puppy. I'm having a hard time finding them on the net. Here is one site I found:

Welcome to the White Dove Ranch Golden Retriever Homepage!

They are a bit out of her price range though. Anyone know of any breeders of these? We don't mind driving if the price is right.

Thanks!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I remember looking at this website a year ago when I was first doing my research. The website turned me off completely.

There are a couple very light and white goldens on the board: Oakley and Tom. Maybe their owners can tell you about their breeders.


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## Boofy Bonbon (Feb 25, 2007)

Don't touch that breeder with a bargepole, they raise several 'red flags' for lots of people and are certainly not reputable based on the information given. 

Ask your local breed club/kennel club for information on good breeders, there are a LOT of unscrupulous 'white' golden breeders in your country and others. 
I would personally put temperament and health before colour but if she is insistent on a lighter colour then please do it properly. You may have to go on a waiting list but you will be doing yourselves a big favour. The dog will be a 14 (approx) year commitment, not to be taken lightly. 

There are a good number of reputable breeders of lighter goldens in the UK (obviously) but i'm not sure how many are in your area, it's definitely worth asking though.

Well done for asking in advance.


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## trainwrecka (Oct 26, 2006)

what are the red flags for the site? they are selling each of those puppies for over $5,000 - so if it is a bad site why would so many people buy them?

Also - my mom already has two yellow labs, both from great breeders. My brother and I own goldens and she just loves them now. My wife showed her a photo of a white one and she just had to have it. She isn't against darker goldens, just would rather have a white one. They seem to be hard to find though. Are they big in the UK?


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

You may want to look into this a bit more. He's a link about the "rare white Golden."

Golden Retriever Club of America Public Education


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## Boofy Bonbon (Feb 25, 2007)

The amount of litters they have at the same time, no sign of health checks, etc. Puppyfarms are very good at disguising themselves, and IMO that looks like one. Just the fact that they have so many litters on the go at one point and want $5000 for a pup says something. They also appear to 'sell' their pups online where as most reputable breeders have them sold in advance.

In the UK they aren't 'big' so much, you typically only see 6 goldens in a retriever rescue at one point but regards to light colour, they're the ones I see most because the breed originates from here. They range from light to dark gold but you don't usually see many darker ones. As far as I am aware 'red' isn't acceptable with the UK kennel club, as 'white' isn't acceptable with the American Kennel Club with breed standards. 

Hope that helps.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

mdoats said:


> You may want to look into this a bit more. He's a link about the "rare white Golden."
> 
> Golden Retriever Club of America Public Education


AGREED! I would be very skeptical of any "breeder" advertising WHITE Golden Retirevers ----- since there is no such thing! Goldens typically run from very light (almost white) to very dark red. The English bred Goldens tend to be lighter and a little heavier boned. Google English Golden Retrievers and you will come up with a host of good breeders. I agree about this breeder - I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole! You said they are selling these puppies for $5,000?????? Thats almost criminal! Average price for a well bred Golden puppy from a known breeder is about $900 to $1500 depending on the area you live in. 

Jazzys Mom


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## trainwrecka (Oct 26, 2006)

thanks to everyone who posted a response. i knew i was going to get good info from this board's users - i just didn't think it would be this kind of info.

thanks for the "education" - i'll fill my mom in on this.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

1) there is no such thing as a genetically white Golden
2) That site and most of those dogs make me physically sick


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Gold goldens are as beautiful as the Cream. We all know that having a wonderful temperament and health checks carried out on the parents is far more important then the colour of you dog. 

We are constantly asked for a cream puppy from families in the States. As I am unable to vet the families, I refuse to export a puppy of any colour. The very thought of one of my pups ending up in a puppy farm would stop me sleeping nights.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't blame you- smart choice


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Are you sure your mom isn't thinking that she wants a cream colored golden?


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Just get her a Great Pyrenese(sp?) ....and tell her it's a golden. :


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## Michelle Laurette (Apr 1, 2007)

Come on guys, lighten up. Trainwrecka already stated that both he and his mom already own Golden Retrievers. There's no reason to get on his back because he and his mom have a preference for a lighter coloured dog this time, he did say "white" between quotation mark. I'm sure they already consider health and temperament of the dog's parents, colour is just one more thing to consider. It's just a choice/preference. Personally I would go for a rescue dog, of any breed/size/colour... For me it's about giving a home to an animal in need of one, not about purebred, or colour, or anything else. Then I figure out how to be the best owner for that breed and buy a carpet that matches the colour of my dog, lol.


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## ID_Hannah (Jun 8, 2006)

Trainwrecka, 

I really hope you haven’t taken offense to everyone’s responses. Some are forceful, but I don’t think they intended to offend. 

I think your mom has every right to choose a new dog with a certain look in mind. Like everyone said “white” technically isn’t a color, the dogs are simply very light crème. But they look white to me too!  White colored dogs are seen in the English/European golden lines. I guess it’s just what it popular there as opposed to a light golden here. I don’t know any breeders of English style goldens personally, but one website to start at is englishgoldens.net. 

I think previous posters were simply encouraging you to look at health when finding a breeder. I didn’t look specifically at the breeder you mentioned, but when researching a breeder take the registered names of the adult dogs on their website (or their AKC registration numbers, if listed) and go to the OFA (offa.org) website and look up the dogs. This will give you a good idea if the breeder’s dogs have had their hips, elbows, eyes, heart, etc. certified. On this board recently we’ve seen so much heartbreak from sick dogs with diseases that might have been prevented if their parents had checks done on their own health. 

A breeder who is selling their goldens as “white” and selling them for extremely high prices tend to strike a nerve with some golden owners. This is because the breeder is often trying to just trick people into buying a fad golden at an outrageous price. Some white golden breeders justify their high costs because they say the dogs are rare (although, someone just posted recently about adopting a shelter golden who’s nearly white in color, so apparently not rare enough to end up in need of rescue:doh or that they had costs from importing dogs from Europe. 

Anyway, I hope your mom has luck finding the right puppy for her! Please let me know if you need anymore help looking up breeders, health testing or pedigrees. I just want to see her end up with an awesome, healthy puppy… no matter the color!


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

My Oakly is a lighter colored golden but was not advertised as a English Cream. His dad is a British dog from the Stanroph Kennels and is was very light. His mom is from a Florida breeder and was medium gold. My breeders only claim was her dogs were bred for health and temperment first and foremost. Oakly came from a breeder here in Maine. I don't feel I paid any premium for his light color. There are a number of breeders around here that do offer lighter colored dogs and thier pricing a couple of years ago was in the 1,200 - 1500 dollar range. Like others have said health is the primary concern but if someone prefers a certain characteristic in their pet then that is what you should look for. I know a number of people who prefer their goldens to be very large and "Blocky" even though they know they don't conform to the breed standard. Many of the nearby Canadian Breeders label their dogs in their ads as "Blockheads". 

Do your research as best you can and find what make you feel comfortable and happy. I personally think some breeders charge high prices just to give themselves "Status" not that their dogs have any longer lifespans or anything. Paying more for a golden will not guarentee you a healthier pet.

Good luck in your search.


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## Michelle Laurette (Apr 1, 2007)

Trainwrecka (and anyone else),

I thought you might like seeing this picture again of Golden Retrivers and their different colouring. I think it's cool and there are probably as many colours as there are Goldens but you get the idea. The one on the left certainly is very light but not quite white.


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

Chaucer's considered an English Cream, I think. Please tell your mother she should NOT pay any more for a cream colored golden than a golden golden. Creams cannot even be shown here in the states. There is a website englishgoldens.net that lists breeders of English type goldens here and in Canada. I have some good and some not so good info about some of the breeders listed. If you're interested please PM me.

In any event, best of luck to your Mom


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Don't know if anyone already posted this, but PLEASE take 5 mintues and read through this thread: 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...puppy/16653-has-anyone-ever-gotten-puppy.html

Please also take the time to read through the Golden Retriever Club of America's site that an earlier posted gave you. Health clearances should always be of THE utmost importance above all else.

Also, your statement about the fact that so many people buy from them so how could they be bad. Well, you have to understand that many many people do not do their research when buying a puppy and are easily fooled. You are not helping the breed by purchasing a puppy from a breeder who does not do health clearances. Think about all the litters they have for sale on their website, what does that mean? I'd sure hate to be a female golden that lives in their kennels, pregnant at every heat. You want a caring breeder who would breed no more than 1-2 litters a year or something darn close to that. Profit driven breeders do shady things and then make their websites look fantastic, easily pulling the wool over the eyes of an unedcuated or misguided consumer.


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## Ivrygld (Oct 22, 2005)

*European Distinction Goldens in US*

In response to your request for information on the specific breeder, you should review one person's dealing with them:
http://www.diosneptuno.com/official_notice.htm

There are a number of reputable breeders of European Distinction Goldens in the US. As always when choosing a breeder it is essential they follow guidelines of the GRCA for ethical breeding practices including clearances, registration and adherhance to breed standard. Most that breed this type golden, breed by the UK breed standard, which allows for any shade of creme or gold for coat color.
If you do your homework and research you will be able to find a reputable breeder.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

That is such a sad link.

I do remember on ChatGoldens a "new member" from Europe that sounded upset, they were trying to find out if White Dove and another breeder were puppy mills or not.


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## audreyannlow (Mar 5, 2007)

*Those don't like REAL Goldens, IMO!*

If you'd like a dog that looks like the ones on that site, consider a LGD or a pet-quality dog from the shelter (in some cases, you could just ask the shelter folks to let you know when one turns up). It sounds like your mom is much more interested in appearance than field and show quality. ALL dogs have perfect pet quality with the proper owner and education. Ethical breeders strive to alleviate the pet overpopulation problem, not populate it by breeding for the purpose of selling pets (as opposed to improving in the field and conformation ring). If you're attracted to dogs like those at White Dove, I'd suggest you get them - from your local shelter or Golden Retriever rescue.


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

audreyannlow said:


> If you'd like a dog that looks like the ones on that site, consider a LGD or a pet-quality dog from the shelter (in some cases, you could just ask the shelter folks to let you know when one turns up). It sounds like your mom is much more interested in appearance than field and show quality. ALL dogs have perfect pet quality with the proper owner and education. Ethical breeders strive to alleviate the pet overpopulation problem, not populate it by breeding for the purpose of selling pets (as opposed to improving in the field and conformation ring). If you're attracted to dogs like those at White Dove, I'd suggest you get them - from your local shelter or Golden Retriever rescue.


 
I agree that there are many dogs that need rescuing which is what I'm planning to do. But it would be nice if the board could give positive feedback and relevant warnings. 

I had a definite purpose in mind when I got Chaucer. My last Golden had died of a virulent form of cancer. I was so devastated that I had almost decided against getting a full blooded Golden because I felt I couldn't face losing another beloved dog in the way I lost Webster. So I seriously considered a Goldendoodle. But I couldn't bring myself to go down that route. 

So.... I decided to get a Golden that had no American blood in his/her lineage in the hopes that I could avoid the early deaths from cancer that plague our American Goldens. (I had gone on a number of legitimate breeders' websites and saw that many of their dogs lived to 12-18 years of age and died of strokes or other age related illnesses, the way our Goldens did years ago.) Admittedly, I was attracted to the "white" color, but only as an afterthought. My only goal was to avoid the untimely, horrendous death of my next companion.

I believe that we each must travel our own path in life which may or may not include adopting dogs. I hope that this board can be a place were someone can get information in an accommodating and facillitating way.

Wish me luck with my rescue!


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## Cathy B (Feb 26, 2007)

*I agree it looks like our Goldens have more cancer*



Chaucer and Mom said:


> I agree that there are many dogs that need rescuing which is what I'm planning to do. But it would be nice if the board could give positive feedback and relevant warnings.
> 
> I had a definite purpose in mind when I got Chaucer. My last Golden had died of a virulent form of cancer. I was so devastated that I had almost decided against getting a full blooded Golden because I felt I couldn't face losing another beloved dog in the way I lost Webster. So I seriously considered a Goldendoodle. But I couldn't bring myself to go down that route.
> 
> ...


I'm just not so sure it has to do with genetically bred American GR's. I think it may have more to do with environmental issues here in the US. I walk through a neighborhood where a family with two Goldens live. The family got them both from the UK (he was stationed there, got the first GR while living there and "imported" the two they have now after returning to the states). The younger, a three yr old male, developed a malignant tumor in his eye and a subsequent cancer on his side. For now, he seems to have stabilized. I think it may have more to do with the everyday chemicals we now expose our animals to. Since losing a GR to a malignancy on her toe that matasticized to her lungs, I have become more aware of the lawns in my area that display the little yellow caution flags "this lawn has just been treated for..." and I notice the owners still allow their own animals to cross the treated areas. I also notice that when I see these signs, there is often evidence that the treatment has been spread well out into the paved roadway where I walk Boomer. I make a point to thoroughly clean my guy's paws after each trip through the neighborhood. Who knows what other invisible threats are out there. Radon & radium? Haven't been tested for those yet but they, too, are clear possibilities.


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

Cathy B said:


> I'm just not so sure it has to do with genetically bred American GR's. I think it may have more to do with environmental issues here in the US. I walk through a neighborhood where a family with two Goldens live. The family got them both from the UK (he was stationed there, got the first GR while living there and "imported" the two they have now after returning to the states). The younger, a three yr old male, developed a malignant tumor in his eye and a subsequent cancer on his side. For now, he seems to have stabilized. I think it may have more to do with the everyday chemicals we now expose our animals to. Since losing a GR to a malignancy on her toe that matasticized to her lungs, I have become more aware of the lawns in my area that display the little yellow caution flags "this lawn has just been treated for..." and I notice the owners still allow their own animals to cross the treated areas. I also notice that when I see these signs, there is often evidence that the treatment has been spread well out into the paved roadway where I walk Boomer. I make a point to thoroughly clean my guy's paws after each trip through the neighborhood. Who knows what other invisible threats are out there. Radon & radium? Haven't been tested for those yet but they, too, are clear possibilities.


 
I hope you're wrong. But...you may be correct. It would be interesting if the GRCA sponsored such a study. I can't believe that we use more chemicals on our lawns than the Canadians do. But it may be that the amount, that is the density of our population, has something to do with it. But I also believe that there were a number of prominent US Goldens who died of cancer very young and were allowed to become the foundation dogs of what we now have, especially in the conformation Goldens.

Hooch, do you find the incidence of cancer very high among the "field" Goldens?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I often wonder about the GR's who walk and play on the golf courses...

What's New


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## audreyannlow (Mar 5, 2007)

*Does YOUR ideal dog actually exist in good Golden breeders' hands?*



Chaucer and Mom said:


> I agree that there are many dogs that need rescuing which is what I'm planning to do. But it would be nice if the board could give positive feedback and relevant warnings.
> 
> I had a definite purpose in mind when I got Chaucer. My last Golden had died of a virulent form of cancer. I was so devastated that I had almost decided against getting a full blooded Golden because I felt I couldn't face losing another beloved dog in the way I lost Webster. So I seriously considered a Goldendoodle. But I couldn't bring myself to go down that route.
> 
> ...


Good luck with your rescue *and* your other dog! I am by no means against breeding or buying any more than I am against people having babies (I personally plan on adopting instead, but everyone's different. I simply caution against breeding (or buying from breeders) who don't seem to have concrete goals in the conformation and performance areas.

The reason I suggested a LGD (Livestock Guardian Dog such as the Kuvasz) or a rescue/shelter in this case is that the appearance may match better than a really well-bred Golden Retriever. My mother had this experience with GSDs (she really wanted a huge, snuggly "police dog", not a medium to large sized sheep tender)...so she's choosing a shelter dog since she likes the pet-type dogs, which are the ones in the shelters anyway! At first she wanted an AKC registered GSD from the shelter, but the timing wasn't right, and I think he was lucky enough to get pulled into a rescue anyway. But she can still have an ILP for him and compete in obedience with what the AKC considers to be a purebred.

Enough talking, here are some photos of my red-gold dog, Aspen (mom was registered red girl, dad looked like a creme Golden but howwwled like a wolf), and his baby sis, Lulu: Aspen

He is very good at posing for pictures, so please don't think he's vicious, a beach bum, a Santa impersonator, or has a cat-dog identity problem. Incidentally, a good number of the other adults and puppies were really almost white, they had the full range in that family! They were already adopted.

And this site looks nice to me: English Background Golden Retrievers In North America


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*white goldens*

Hello

These are actually called cream color. I just purchased one from golden creek Kennels. www.goldencreekkennels. She seems very reputable. I paid 1500 and will be picking the dog up on feb 2. Shes from durham NC and only breeds when needed. They have a 26 month guarantee.

Kim 
NJ


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

Congrats on your new pup! I looked at the website and they are beautiful!! I bet you are soooo excited :bowl:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oops this is old... my bad! LOL

(I really hate when people call yellow Labradors "White Labs")

And, I wouldn't take a dog from White Dove if it was free...


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

I just looked at Golden Creek Kennels. Their dogs are very pretty but I didn't see anything about any clearances on any of their dogs. Please, for your own sake, ask about clearances of the puppies parents. Ask to see the certs. Also, are all 29 females that they have pics of on their website brood bitches? Thats an awful lot!

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*britsh goldens*

Actually they dont breed all 29 females. That is just all their dogs. Some of them are in other homes in the area which they do breed them at certain times. They dont breed each dog every year and they dont breed them until after they are 2. The have all the certifications as I had asked about them. They dont list them on the site she sends you an email when you ask about them. I'm really looking forward to getting my new little puppy.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

i just looked at the white dove ranch website, and i cant believe how many "pet dogs" are for sale because they are "done breeding" !!! what the hell....so, they breed the dogs until they cant anymore, and then they sell them??


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> i just looked at the white dove ranch website, and i cant believe how many "pet dogs" are for sale because they are "done breeding" !!! what the hell....so, they breed the dogs until they cant anymore, and then they sell them??


I found their website totally upsetting. When you have that many brood bitches (and yes, Chesney, 29 is a number that reeks of puppy mill even with a nice website), you know what White Dove is up to. It all makes me want to cry. These dogs are in servitude, like livestock. Wouldn't it be nice if people couldn't make a "living" from selling/breeding dogs and you had to be licensed to even own one?


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Actually they dont breed all 29 females. That is just all their dogs. Some of them are in other homes in the area which they do breed them at certain times. They dont breed each dog every year and they dont breed them until after they are 2. The have all the certifications as I had asked about them. They dont list them on the site she sends you an email when you ask about them. I'm really looking forward to getting my new little puppy.


If they had all the certs then they would say so on their site. They know how important certs are! So it sounds like they farm their bitches out for breeding! That is awful! Beautiful dogs that are in bondage!

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Well if you dont believe me then you email them. I have seen many breeds not specificy on their sites and some I know personally they are good breeders.

Here is part of one of the emails I received from them. I dont want to say this rudely but you know I'm sure you arent what you call a pro at this. Some sites do say and some dont. Just dont take it the wrong way I just didnt know quite how to say it. Besides some of the sites that say it on their sites arent the greatest either from what I've heard.

*All of our guys and gals including the kids are registered Golden Retrievers. Pups are sold with limited registations (meaning no breeding or showing.) And must be spayed or neutered by 6 mos of age. We sell our pups strictly as family pets.*

*Parents are screened for hips, eyes and hearts. And all of our pups come with a 26 mo warranty on their hips, eyes and hearts. Pups come with their first puppy shot, wormed and vet checked.*


*Kim*


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Well if you dont believe me then you email them. I have seen many breeds not specificy on their sites and some I know personally they are good breeders.
> 
> Here is part of one of the emails I received from them. I dont want to say this rudely but you know I'm sure you arent what you call a pro at this. Some sites do say and some dont. Just dont take it the wrong way I just didnt know quite how to say it. Besides some of the sites that say it on their sites arent the greatest either from what I've heard.
> 
> ...


The email above tells you nothing. For all you can tell, the dogs were examined by her regular veterinarian. For all their training, regular vets do not have the training, and often the specialised equipment, necessary to diagnose 
hip/elbow dysplasia, eye issues such as PRA/uveitis/juvenile hereditary cataracts, and heart issues such as SAS.

I send prospective owners copies of clearances, and refer them to the OFA website as well. They can research generations of clearances that way.

I would email her back and ask for copies of OFA clearances for hips and elbows, a copy of the eye clearance(s) and a copy of the heart clearance. If all have been listed with OFA, you just need the names of the parents and you can look them up.

And does the warranty require the return of the puppy? Are there special supplements, foods, etc that you have to feed for the warranty to be in effect? Are you refunded the cost of the puppy? If so, under what circumstances.

These are the basic questions that you deserve to have answered before even making a decision on a puppy, let alone putting down a deposit.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*white goldens*



Tahnee GR said:


> The email above tells you nothing. For all you can tell, the dogs were examined by her regular veterinarian. For all their training, regular vets do not have the training, and often the specialised equipment, necessary to diagnose
> hip/elbow dysplasia, eye issues such as PRA/uveitis/juvenile hereditary cataracts, and heart issues such as SAS.
> 
> I send prospective owners copies of clearances, and refer them to the OFA website as well. They can research generations of clearances that way.
> ...


 
I already know what the warranty entails I already asked about that.

Kim


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Good-then you have an idea of what to expect if there are issues. The next step is to clarify clearances and, maybe, registry. If you don't care if the puppy is AKC, UKC, or something else, no problem. But if you think you might want to compete in AKC or UKC events, registry can be important also.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Well if you dont believe me then you email them. I have seen many breeds not specificy on their sites and some I know personally they are good breeders.
> 
> Here is part of one of the emails I received from them. I dont want to say this rudely but you know I'm sure you arent what you call a pro at this. Some sites do say and some dont. Just dont take it the wrong way I just didnt know quite how to say it. Besides some of the sites that say it on their sites arent the greatest either from what I've heard.
> 
> ...


 
Yep, I was thinking that you can say anything on the internet Or email, though the detailed descriptions that some sites put up look credible. Have you visited this breeder in person?

I'm curious how you could check the truthfulness of certification claims. Is it possible?

I know people disdain the word "rare white" or "rare european" but they really are rare here in the US, so that isn't a word that I think particualry false. I like the cream ones, but now have an equal afinnity for the dark reds.

When is your puppy arriving?


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Well if you dont believe me then you email them. I have seen many breeds not specificy on their sites and some I know personally they are good breeders.
> 
> Here is part of one of the emails I received from them. I dont want to say this rudely but you know I'm sure you arent what you call a pro at this. Some sites do say and some dont. Just dont take it the wrong way I just didnt know quite how to say it. Besides some of the sites that say it on their sites arent the greatest either from what I've heard.
> 
> ...


 
ChesneyGirl,

This is a forum where we can learn from one another. And no one in this thread is attacking you. Quite the opposite. We're all here to offer our combined years of wisdom from different perspectives.

So I hope you can stand back and just take a look at what people are saying. We've all misjudged things at one time or another. And it is possible that you're defending people who don't deserve to be defended and perhpas, you're getting a puppy with potentially serious problems that you'll have to care for and pay for.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> I'm curious how you could check the truthfulness of certification claims. Is it possible?


Hip and elbow clearances are listed on the OFA website. You can even list clearances there from the GDC. Many breeders are now also listing eye and heart clearances with OFA as that is a good way to get them all registered with one organization and available publicly. In addition to OFA, some breeders will also do a PennHip evaluation on the hips.

The OFA website is Orthopedic Foundation for Animals You can search by name or registration number. If the dog is in the database, whether for official clearances or prelims, his or her name will appear. You can click the name, and not only get more information on the individual dog, but his/her parents, offspring, siblings and half-siblings. It is a wonderful tool


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Tahnee GR said:


> Lucky's mom said:
> 
> 
> > I'm curious how you could check the truthfulness of certification claims. Is it possible?
> ...


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

The bad thing about PennHip is that there's no open database to check the results on....unless the owner also submits the PennHip films to OFA (which is now possible).

Our Newf Molly was PennHipped....and then also sent to OFA. Cole will be as well. I like PennHip because I like to see where the dog "stacks up" against the rest of it's breed.

IF a breeder has the certifications on the dogs health, there's not a good reason NOT to submit them to OFA. Granted, it costs money every time you submit a new test, but not nearly as much as the test itself.

So, all we're saying is that if there are certifications, and they're not on OFA....why not? That's not what *most* reputable breeders do.

The problem nowdays with sending certifications via email, or even sending hard paper copies through regular mail is that they could be falsified. Computers and photoshop type programs have made it very easy to do.

I'm not saying that's what this breeder has done, at all. However, there are some who have.

What I am saying is that when they're sent into OFA and the breeder elects to make them public (good or bad), they become part of OFA's database available for the public to see. They're put into that database by OFA, so there can't be any falsification. 

Plus, you can look up relatives of your dog and see how their clearances look as well. This is important, because even if the parents are clear, but an aunt or uncle...or grandparent isn't, then your pup has a possibility of inheriting certain genetic health faults. And, can pass them on.

This is the best way to get true, unbiased information on any breeding pair.

You also need to read the contract thoroughly before determining whether or not to purchase from that breeder. We've said no to breeders whose contracts we don't like....even highly reputable breeders.

So.....do be very careful, and please listen to everyone here. The advice and suggestions are given in good faith, not to upset you.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I cant visit the breeder in person I live in NJ and the breeder is in NC. I wont be going there til February when I pick the puppy up. I do know all the dogs are AKC Registered. I already emailed the breeder about the certifications and the pedigree also but what am I looking for? Just that they are up to date right?

Kim


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## ID_Hannah (Jun 8, 2006)

If you have your puppy's parents AKC registered names you can look for them in the OFA (orthopedic foundation for animals) online database. 

Here's the link for searching. 

And actually, if you know their names and feel comfortable sharing them on the board, you should. There's a lot of people here who actually enjoy researching pedigrees and health information. It sounds nuts, I know. :bowl: And there are many people who can help you interpret what you find too. 

On OFA, they'll list the hip, elbow, and heart clearances if the dogs have had them and they've been sent into the OFA. Passing scores for hips are excellent, good, and fair. Anything else means the dog have hip problems & shouldn't be bred. I believe that elbows and heart are simply cleared or not. 

Also, if you have the puppy's parents AKC names you can search them on this golden retriever pedigree database. K9data.com There are many breeders on the board that have studied many pedigrees and can probably tell you more about your puppy's lineage too. 

Hope this helps!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Both parents should be OFA Excellent, Good or Fair for hips, OFA Normal for elbows; eye clearance should be done on a CERF form and should be recent (within 18 months at the outside limit, they should be done about every 12 months), and done by a veterinary opthamologist; the heart clearance should be on an Application for Congenital Cardiac Daabase and done by a veterinary cardiologist. If all the clearances were registered with the OFA, then you just need the parent's names and you can look them up yourself on the OFA database.

Another clearance that is often done but not considered required at this point is thyroid.

The pedigree gives the possibility of researching ancestors on K9DATA.COM Home Page and Orthopedic Foundation for Animals as well. The best possible scenario for you is that parents and ancestors for several generations back have all the clearances listed above, although since not all will be listed with the OFA, it is sometimes difficult to track heart and eyes.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Here is the puppy checklist in researching a puppy. Hope it helps...
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...er-puppy/22440-puppy-buyers-fact-checker.html


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

ID Hannah, I see that great minds think alike-and at the same time too!


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

ChesneyGirl,

I want to add something to this discussion. I was very, very anxious to get an English Golden which I did, as you can see from Chaucer's picture. Because I couldn't wait for the "right" breeder, I ended up with a lot of heart ache which I won't bore you with here.

I've been owned by over eight dogs over the past umpteen years and I still made some serious misjudgments. IF you don't find things with this breeder up to standard, I now know the names of some reputable breeders of English Goldens. So PM me any time if you want to.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

OK...as far as clearances go....here is what you're looking for....

Linked below is our Molly's OFA Page. She's a Newfoundland, but the page would be just about the same for a Golden - EXCEPT a Golden would NOT have a Cystinuria test.

If you notice, there is a red/white/blue CHIC emblem on her page. That means that Molly has had ALL tests required by the Newfoundland Club of America. (Actually she's had more than the required tests done). And, they were submitted to OFA....good or bad.

Now, if you look real closely, you'll notice that the CERF exam isn't up to date. It expired on March of 2007. It must be done yearly. It WAS done in March of 2007, but I haven't sent it in....because I've been lazy.

IF none of the clearances have been done/sent to OFA, nothing will come up when you put the dogs name in the search box. If only some have been.....then you'll get to see what's been sent in.

For Goldens, according to the Golden Retriever Club of America, the clearances you should be seeing are: Hips, Elbows, Eyes (CERF), Heart (by a Cardiologist). 

IF all of these have been done by specialists in their field (board certified), then the dog will have a CHIC symbol. CHIC does NOT mean they passed or failed...it just means all tests were submitted.

Thyroid and Patellas should be done too.....and all good Golden breeders have them done. So these should also show up on the OFA database, even though they're not required, at the moment, by the GRCA.

OFA: Search Results


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*british goldens*



Chaucer and Mom said:


> I found their website totally upsetting. When you have that many brood bitches (and yes, Chesney, 29 is a number that reeks of puppy mill even with a nice website), you know what White Dove is up to. It all makes me want to cry. These dogs are in servitude, like livestock. Wouldn't it be nice if people couldn't make a "living" from selling/breeding dogs and you had to be licensed to even own one?


 
I can tell you that its not a puppy mill. Some of the dogs are fostered in other home and there is about 6 or 7 that are puppies of some of the other dogs that they are just too young yet for breeding as they will be a good edition to the breeding program when they are ready. There is a very good testimony on that site. I also know for a fact the lady I get raw food for the dogs her webiste dont list the OFA but she does list the pedigrees of her dogs and I know shes a good breeder as well. I already have an email into the breeder but I do know all the dogs have been tested as one of my emails she did tell me but I dont think I kept that one. I will know the AKC names as soon as she emails me back. I asked her to email it to me or fax it as I thought it was something I should look at. So hopefully she has access to put it on her computer or just fax it. Thanks for all your help guys. I have my heart set on this dog and I already put a deposit down so I hope this breeder is legit. I guess I would only loose my deposit then of $250 but thats better than $1500. My friend that lives down the street has very good dogs and I know she has all the certifications but she was selling hers for $2100 and my husband did not want to pay that much for a dog. I guess I dont blame him. Thanks guys.

Kim


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

We tend to throw out the word puppy mill to describe anyone whose breeding practices we don't agree with.

I have seen Golden Creeks website and I highly doubt that she is a puppy mill in the traditional sense, where dogs are raised in filth, with no thought that they are living creatures with social and emotional needs.

I do think she is a high volume breeders, who breeds to either make her income or supplement it in a large way. There is nothing inherently wrong with this approach, as long as the dogs are clean, healthy, socialized at least minimally, and the required clearances are done. The problem with HVB, IMO, is that sometimes profit gets ahead of doing the right thing with the dogs, so clearances are skipped and not done. Other shortcuts and cost cutters are the tendency to always breed to one of their own stud dogs (or to a stud dog owned by another HVB) without regard to the question, Is this the best dog for this bitches pedigree and physical short comings? HVB also tend to charge a lot of money for their puppies for no more reason than that they can. For $1500, I would think you would be able to purchase a well bred pet puppy from a hobby breeder, maybe not a big long time hobby breeder but a reputable one at least. Of course that depends where you live. My friend who lives about an hour from Chicago charges $1000 for a pet puppy. Her litters are almost always sired by a BISS/BIS boy and her girls are almost always champions themselves.

A hobby breeder is one who competes in some form of dog sport, and breeds with an eye to successfully competing in their chosen arena. They almost always belong to the GRCA and/or a local Golden or all breed club, or a specialty club such as field or obedience. They breed to improve what they have, so can tell you exactly why they did a particular breeding. They sometimes use their own stud dog, but not always. It is more important to find the right dog for the bitch, than to keep potential profits (ha!) higher by using their own stud dog. I just bred my girl and I can tell exactly why I did that breeding. It is to my own boy, and I did that reluctantly because I don't like to breed two untitled dogs. But, it is a breeding I have had planned for two years now. My boy should improve the head on my girl, who has a pretty head but I would like a better muzzle, and he has that and so did his daddy. I did not want to compromise structure, and he is very nicely structured (he is the puppy in my avatar), as is my girl. Size has been increasing in my dogs, and he is a moderate dog in size, while my girl is big. The pedigree is very nice and brings in some dogs that I truly admire, through the addition of Bravo's Old Spice, adds some variety and will allow me to utilize some very nice pedigrees on a puppy out of this litter (this is where the dreaming comes in!) This is the third time she has been bred and she has yet to get pregnant. The first time was via chilled semen to my dream boy, Twin Beau D's Flirt with Danger. Very very expensive due to the chilled, no puppies. The second time I went locally, to help the chances of her getting pregnant through a live cover. Bred her to another dog I like, who has a very nice head and a wonderful temperament, a multiple BIS dog I have seen a lot and know personally-Sandpipers Give'M H Harry. Still no puppies and not exactly cheap either. But then, money is not the purpose here, although a constant outflow of big dollars definitely hurts the retirement savings. Breeding her to my male was not cheap either, since we did 6 progesterone tests and a surgical insemination as well as two naturals, but it allowed me to control the whole process. If she doesn't get pregnant this time, that is probably it. Which will be a real shame, because except for her size and her dropped incisors, she is a very nice bitch with an outstanding bulletproof temperament and a great history of longevity behind her, and shoulders you seldom see anymore. That is the type of information about why a particular breeding was done, and what the breeder's hopes for the puppes are, that a serious hobby breeder can tell you. The problem that can arise with serious hobby breeders is that they can sometimes become blind to the faults and flaws within their line, or in an attempt to win, they breed to winning dogs with clearances whose health history is not so great.

There are also pin money breeders. They breed to supplement the family income, or buy Christmas presents for the family, etc. They often love their dogs and want to do the right thing. Pin money breeders do not compete with their dogs and generally have one or two males, and three or more bitches. They generally breed their male to their bitches, and repeat those breedings over and over. The good ones do the required health checks. Nothing wrong with them either, and their dogs usually cost less than dogs from HVB or serious hobby breeders. The only problem can be is money, again. If money becomes more important than the dogs, the same shortcuts can be taken here as with the HVB who breeds for the money.

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with any of the types of breeders listed above, with the exception of puppy mills. The issues tend to arise with either ignorance of breeding responsibilities, or when profit or winning becomes more important than the dogs. And that is why research is so important when looking for a puppy.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Well if you dont believe me then you email them. I have seen many breeds not specificy on their sites and some I know personally they are good breeders.
> 
> Here is part of one of the emails I received from them. I dont want to say this rudely but you know I'm sure you arent what you call a pro at this. Some sites do say and some dont. Just dont take it the wrong way I just didnt know quite how to say it. Besides some of the sites that say it on their sites arent the greatest either from what I've heard.
> 
> ...


Kim,

In answer to the above --- no, I am no expert although I have bred several litters of elcellent Goldens. There are people here that ARE experts - spcifically Tawnee GR. She and other experts on here have given you excellent advice. No one is trying in any way to gang up on you, just to give you advice on your new baby. If you look back through the threads on this forum you will find threads pertaining to a breeder that presented herself here and other places as a reputable breeder. There are forum members that purchased her puppies in good faith and now are having a multitude of problems with the puppies and can't get any satisfaction from the breeder. These puppies were represented as being AKC - they are NOT! We are just trying to educate you with what we know. Please don't take it wrong. Take it with an open mind. Maybe your breeder is great and has all the certs. They are not on the website but if she sends them to you then fine! Just make sure they are up to date. Listen to Tawnee GR - she knows what she is talking about and is only trying to help.

Jazzys Mom


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Thanks, Jazzy's Mom. I don't consider myself an expert, but after 30+ years, I like to think I have something to offer 

And yes, I think the GRM debacle has taught us all a valuable lesson, and made us more cautious.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

You're welcome Linda! You may not consider yourself an expert but many of us on this forum do. You have soooo much knowledge to share and I have learned a lot from your posts.

Yes, GRM has taught us all a valuable lesson and if we can pass on what we have learned in the past weeks then I will be pleased.

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I'm hoping she does cause I already put a deposit down on the puppy!!!! I am just waiting for a reply from her now. I wish I had gone here first before putting the deposit down its just so hard to figure out which ones are good and then when you do they quote you $2000 for a dog and thats way over my limit. These white goldens are very rare in NJ where I live so alot of these breeders are charging a large about of money for them. I do not want to have the puppy shipped so it needs to come somewhere I can drive to which NC is driving distance for me. I hope to hear from my breeder soon.

Kim

Kim


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

_These white goldens are very rare in NJ where I live so alot of these breeders are charging a large about of money for them._

Somebody else has probably already said this... but there's no such thing as a "white Golden" and to me, anyone advertising as such is potentially suspect. Sorry, but really bugs me when breeders try and capitalize on coat color -- making is sound rare and exotic when it's actually a fault.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> making is sound rare and exotic when it's actually a fault.


 
YEP! they are called "golden" retrievers for a reason..........

is dark red also a fault??


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

foreveramber said:


> YEP! they are called "golden" retrievers for a reason..........
> 
> is dark red also a fault??


Not honestly sure... if it is, it's not a disqualifying fault - I know that for sure. There is one dark red CH.... somebody posted a pic here a while ago. I forget who it is. Not common to see the dark reds in conformation.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Not honestly sure... if it is, it's not a disqualifying fault - I know that for sure. There is one dark red CH.... somebody posted a pic here a while ago. I forget who it is. Not common to see the dark reds in conformation.


 
is the white color a disqualifying fault then?? 

hm. ive always liked the dark reds.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Color
Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. *Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity.* Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I just loved the british goldens its just here in NJ very expensive. The highest I found was $3800 and the lowest which is right downt the road from me and I know the lady who breeds the dogs was $2100. So hard to find a decent priced british golden retriever around here everyone is trying to make a bunch off these dogs. I almost was gonna pay the $2100 only cause i knew the lady but my hubby said NO!!!

Kim


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

My understanding is that cream Goldens are acceptable in Europe conformation. The people in the US who want the light Goldens are not interested in showing anyway.

*Colour* Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only permissible.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't think anyone is taking advantage of anyone... its simply the law of supply and demand. Some people want to standout in a crowd and are willing to pay lots of money to be noticed and possibly envied... It might be a big yellow Hummer or a big diamond necklace or a lovely white Golden. When someone really wants one, if there is not enough supply to meet the demand then prices rise and in the case of the 'rare' white Golden, more breeders will get into the act. However once everyone who wants one has one, the price will drop as these dogs will become more common place in the U.S. and so will the allure of its being different. The AKC is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to describing what a Golden Retriever is or is not... it is only so far as AKC show people are concerned... which represents a very one-dimensional viewpoint (another dimension for example: some people think REAL Golden Retrievers should be able to actaully retrieve). I see nothing inherently wrong with a white Golden... its just a pretty white dog with (hopefully) the Golden personality. If you want one and can afford one then get one... just make sure its healthy and not from a mill operation.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

monomer said:


> I don't think anyone is taking advantage of anyone... its simply the law of supply and demand. Some people want to standout in a crowd and are willing to pay lots of money to be noticed and possibly envied. It might be a big yellow Hummer or a lovely white Golden... if there is not enough supply to meet the demand then prices rise and more breeders get into the act. However once everyone who wants one has one, the price will drop as these dogs will become more common place in the U.S. The AKC is not the be-all and end-all when it comes to describing what a Golden Retriever is or is not... its only so far as AKC show people are concerned. I see nothing inherently wrong with a white Golden... its just a pretty white dog with (hopefully) the Golden personality. If you want one and can afford one then get one... just make sure its healthy and not from a mill operation.


I so agree with you mostly. But I think people want a Cream Golden because they consider the color very attractive, not because they are trying to gain attention for themselves.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> I so agree with you mostly. But I think people want a Cream Golden because they consider the color very attractive, not because they are trying to gain attention for themselves.


 
agreed.. i agree with most of what monomer said also. i just worry about mill operations. i have nothing against white goldens.

i bought jake because he was **** cute. he also happened to be a lighter GOLD color, which i LOVE and prefer. i lucked out. 

i guess it seems to me that people are looking for a color, not a temperament. which is weird to me. i wanted a female, and didnt care what color...gender makes sense, when it comes to searching for a dog, because they have different temperaments...color? no.

*also...is this breeder breeding for the love of the breed? or for the "rare" white color, in which she can earn TONS of money?? even if she not a puppy mill, are her motives acceptable?*


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

I posted a picture some time ago of Victor -CH. Dichi Go Unchallenged
Here is a link to Victor's page

Victor

Victor is dark red and gorgeous! I do know it took twich as long to finish him as it does a "typical" Golden colored dog. Judges do not want to put up extremes in color.

Jazzys Mom


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> I already have an email into the breeder but I do know all the dogs have been tested as one of my emails she did tell me but I dont think I kept that one. I will know the AKC names as soon as she emails me back. I asked her to email it to me or fax it as I thought it was something I should look at. So hopefully she has access to put it on her computer or just fax it


Chesneygirl007..........did you get the information back yet? Has she sent you the registered names of the sire and dam so you can research them on OFA and K9 Data?


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*british goldens*

No Not yet. I just emailed her late last night or early this morning I think. I'll probably get an email from her later tonight or tomorrow.

Kim


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

White, if a dog was TRULY white, would be a DQ fault, just as if a dog was black- or at least I'm pretty sure!

Cream is a serious fault, as is Irish Setter red. However, in all the HUNDREDS of Goldens I have seen and met and fostered and etc, I have NEVER ONCE met one that if stood next to an Irish Setter was truly that dark. Compare them sometime at shows... Setters are DARK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi ChesneyGirl,

If things don't seem "kosher" with your breeder, do NOT hesitate to lose your deposit. Believe me, if there are problems, hips, eyes, lots of parasites, you'll pay a lot more than $250.

Also as someone said... check and make sure that your breeder is a member of the GRCA and definitely of the local Golden Retriever Club. I didn't check about the local club, and found out later that my breeder had been "kicked out" because of the poor conditions in her home/yard etc.

There is a website...englishgoldens.net. You can get the names of of breeders on the East Coast there; BUT if you're interested in one of them , please PM me. I know who not to use. BTW, no one should be charging more than $1300! 

I think you're terrific for listening to us and being interested in learning.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I've been on that site but most the page is under construction!!! BTW I was only being charged $1500 and I thought that was pretty decent. Like I said in a previous post here in NJ they go from 2100 - 3800

Kim


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

After 8 pages......I went on the site of the breeder you have a deposit with Kim.

Impressive site, impressive set up. The foster family idea is interesting. I wonder why they just don't co-own with their fosters, instead of retaining full ownership? 

We co-own one dog with his breeder, and she also has certain specified breeding rights as outlined in our contract. Other than that, we're responsible for everything. (However, she will be handling him when he's shown - in certain specialty shows).

We also co-owned with Molly's breeder, but that co-ownership has been released. We're now sole owners. She also, per the contract, still has a "say" in who Molly is or is not bred to if we ever do breed her. Her kennel name (established over 35 years) depends on quality breedings.

The most obvious things missing from *your* breeder's website are the contract, the AKC registered names, the clearances....and titles, or even competitive entries (if any).

The more subtle things missing are any reference to kennel club memberships, links to "their" breeder's websites (or at least contact information...or a name), history of the lines, etc.

If you look at quality breeders' sites.........you'll see all of these things.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> If you look at quality breeders' sites.........you'll see all of these things.


 
good point.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Here are some websites that will give you an idea of a typical website from a serious hobby breeder:

KJen Golden Retrievers

Chezor Golden Retrievers

Pendery Golden Retrievers - Home Page I think she is a member?

and our own

Delmarva Goldens


Please note I am not recommending the above breeders (well, except for Sue and Vern <G>)-you should always do your own investigation when buying a puppy. These are simply websites for serious hobby breeders.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kuvasz, Samoyeds and Great Pyrenees are nice WHITE dogs.

WHITE GOLDEN = oxymoron.

By very virtue of it's name, GOLDEN Retriever, a Golden should be, well, GOLDEN.

As has been pointed out, a truly white Golden Retriever would be disqualified. It would be lacking breed type. Other than graying or whitening of the face due to age, any white marking other than a few white hairs on the chest are to be penalized according to the extent. The standard states that predominant body color that is either extremely dark or extremely pale is undesirable. 

People who are marketing "Rare white Goldens", "Rare British Cremes/creams", "Alpine White Goldens", etc etc, are duping people into paying a boatload of cash for something other than what a GOLDEN is supposed to be.

Can you tell this is one of my peeves? :doh:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Kuvasz, Samoyeds and Great Pyrenees are nice WHITE dogs.
> 
> WHITE GOLDEN = oxymoron.
> 
> ...



And mine? We agree completely on THIS issue...


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I find it odd that any GR breder would describe their dogs as 'WHITE'...I also think they are lying a little...goldens in the uk are not white!! I think people may be getting the impression that we have these massive, albino style goldies all over the place...yes, paler golden retrievers seem to be the norm, they are cream/pale blonde but certainly not white (put one in the snow and you will see!!) I don't see many goldens around here paler than Tilly and she is clearly not white!









I think any breeder striving for a colour that isnt part of the breed standard isn't really thinking of the breed...but knowing they can charge triple the amount for them leads me to believe they MAY be thinking about their pockets?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Love that picture of Tilly!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

That is only ONE point of view... according to some who 'believe' a conformation breed standard kept by a particular organization is the only judge of a REAL Golden. What about the field guys? they think you show people don't have a REAL Golden *Retriever* unless they have a strong retrieve drive... and again, this only represents a single point of view but the focus is on a different aspect. To me the salient feature is the Golden personality, with color being a very distant qualifying feature (actually I could care less). I maintain this is about fad... it is also about supply and demand... I think a white Golden is very pretty but pretty would not be my own personal major concern, though it is for other people (which is fine). If there weren't already Flat-coated Retrievers, I can guarantee you someone would have eventually bred an all-black Golden and would be selling it for big bucks as it too would be considered rare and thus a certain segment of the population would find the need to possess one of these regardless of price. Lucky's Mom... Whether I say people want them to be noticed or you say some people just find them attractive, its really saying the same thing... you say tomatoes and I say tomahtoes, we are still describing the same red (or green or yellow) vegetable.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

monomer said:


> Some people want to standout in a crowd and are willing to pay lots of money to be noticed and possibly envied... It might be a big yellow Hummer or a big diamond necklace or a lovely white Golden.


If we want to air pet peeves, this type of human behavior NAUSEATES me...
if they only knew they aren't viewed with envy by some of us, but rather viewed as pathetic


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well it's all important to me. I just happen to like athletic, fast dogs that are Zander's color or darker. I don't like any Golden of any color that weighs 80 plus pounds and has no side movement and looks like a Pyr mix. Appearance DOES matter to me- and not because I care what others think. But because I care what I think and I am very dog oriented. I know what I want to look at in my house and it is NOT a deformed looking sad creature like some of the dogs on some of those sites. I also don't want one with a bad temperament- no matter how beautiful is. 

One of the dogs on one of the posted sites (and I hate to name which one, but it was talked about on this thread and they are generally regarded as a puppy mill) takes the prize as the MOST deformed looking freak of nature with the most awful, bizarre structure I have ever seen on a canine in my life time, and I have seen some real freaks in Whippets, GSDs, and other breeds. Make that poor animal any color you want- it would still make me want to cry to look at the picture. That anyone would breed that makes me heartsick. We're not talking "ugly" though it certainly is- we are talking HORRID structure, so bad that it doesn't look like it could occur in nature.


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## parrothead (Nov 1, 2007)

Ok I don't get something here. You are going to pay $1500.00 for a puppy (that you have never really seen or its parents)drive what 900 miles r/t with gas @ 3.30 gal.Then deal with a breeder that far away.What if (and I hope you don't )have some issue where you might have to return the dog,another 900 mile r/t. When you said there's a breeder right down the street.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well I have owned dogs whose breeders live in Europe, and I live in the USA. When someone wants something specific in a dog, there is nothing wrong with having a valueable dog shipped. However, it is VERY important to have a good trusting relationship with the breeder.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A Golden Retriever should be some shade of "lustrous gold". That is a requirement of the Standard. The breed name is GOLDEN Retriever. Not White Retriever, or Creme Retriever. And there actually already are people touting "Black Golden Retrievers"...
All that said, while I personally prefer a true, medium gold, color is NOT my first concern. Genetic health, temperament, soundness, structure and movement must come first. 
I encourage people calling me looking for puppies that before making a choice based simply on color, that these criteria must take priority.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

A black Golden is genetically impossible. Literally impossible...

For Flat Coated Retrievers, Goldens, and Labrador Retrievers:

If Golden/Yellow is Y and Black is B:

Y to Y always produces Y

B to B can produce a Y or mostly or all B

Y to B can produce both

That is why yellow flat coats are sometimes born- but black Goldens are NEVER born- if one is, then it is NOT purebred.


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## parrothead (Nov 1, 2007)

I can maybe understannd that if your going to Show or breed your dog but for a pet c'mon. Here's someone who (if you read some of her other post) blasted people for suggesting she hire a dog walker or arrange for a niehbor to let her puppy out during to day.And beleives she will have a 8 wk old puppy housebroke in a week.Anyone who says "I just bought a puppy and paid 1500.00 for it" sounds to me like there looking for a status symbol more than she is a dog.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I can see both views. I do show my dogs (though I don't breed) so I have absolutely bought dogs long distance. I have for a pet in a rare breed as there were no local breeders. I am okay with it if one is dead set on clearances, etc, as one should be ideally, for a pet or show dog! I do see your point- I cannot afford a dog walker. I also could not afford a $1500 puppy which is why I have and have always had a beautiful rescue Golden (see my signature picture and avatar for my current rescue's picture). He was FREE


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> (snipped) That is why yellow flat coats are sometimes born- but black Goldens are NEVER born- if one is, then it is NOT purebred.


Ya think?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

parrothead said:


> I can maybe understannd that if your going to Show or breed your dog but for a pet c'mon. Here's someone who (if you read some of her other post) blasted people for suggesting she hire a dog walker or arrange for a niehbor to let her puppy out during to day.And beleives she will have a 8 wk old puppy housebroke in a week.Anyone who says "I just bought a puppy and paid 1500.00 for it" sounds to me like there looking for a status symbol more than she is a dog.


I'm not sure who you are referring to here, or what you are saying in regards to if you are goint to show or breed - I do both, and I still consider health clearances, temperament, structure, and overall soundness EVERY bit as important for someone getting a pet. In fact, more so, as they are looking for a family member and deserve to have a healthy, long-lived companion.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Ya think?


Not everyone knows that, though... like with the Silver Labs :doh:


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Not everyone knows that, though... like with the Silver Labs :doh:


??Silver Labs?? Now I've heard it all!:

ACC - Your dogs are gorgeous! You got a deal!!

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes they're part Weim...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Here, these are rare silver Labs...

*vomits in mouth*

Silver Labrador Retrievers, Silver Labs, Silver Labradors and Labrador Breeders.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Okay here goes...
I don't know a lot about genetics (only some things) but just using common sense logic... at one time there was only one type of dog in existence (unless you are a staunch supporter of creationism)... yet today man has managed to created hundreds of distinct breeds of all colors, sizes, shapes and propensities. How is it a black dog ever came into being? Are you saying the original dog must have been black? And I have seen Goldens with single strands of black fur and even some with small spots of black fur... so these are all ********? I know about dominant and recessive traits but clearly from what you have describe this is something quite more complex (as I'm aware that genetics is not so simple and can very well be quite confusing)... I'm assuming hair color in dogs is one of these cases. Are you simply relating a relationship that is true for Labs or are you speaking of a genetic relationship that holds true for all dogs or a relationship for hair color in all mammals in general? With so many breeders on this forum, I'm assuming someone can give a complete and logical explanation to these questions...


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## parrothead (Nov 1, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I'm not sure who you are referring to here, or what you are saying in regards to if you are goint to show or breed - I do both, and I still consider health clearances, temperament, structure, and overall soundness EVERY bit as important for someone getting a pet. In fact, more so, as they are looking for a family member and deserve to have a healthy, long-lived companion.


I'm referring to it looks to me like none of that seems to be that inportant to her.she put down a 250.00 deposit on a puppy mainly for its color.I sorry but if you look hard enough loccally you can find a good breeder.I for one would never buy a puppy just from looking at a web site.anyone can make a web site look good.I guess my point is did she even look or just seen the website and said "I got to have one of those"


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

I wish I could but since my uncle is dead I cannot. He was an expert in genetics and when I should have been listening I wasn't! Sure wish I had now!

ACC - That web site is sad and frightening. Those don't even look like Labs and you can see the Weim in them! They say they are AKC but they cannot be. Then they have this disclaimer there about where AKC stands on these dogs and that really says nothing except they are putting pressure on AKC to include these mutations. I feel sorry for the dogs - they have no clue and are probably nice pet dpgs for someone, but SILVER LABS they are not. If they were being sold as mixed breed that would be fine - but $1000 for a "silver" and $500 for a "choc. silver"

I wanted to e-mail these people and tell them what I think but it would do no good and they would have my e-mail address too.

Jazzys Mom


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

monomer said:


> Okay here goes...
> And I have seen Goldens with single strands of black fur and even some with small spots of black fur... so these are all ********?


hmmm this interests me as Tilly has a solid black patch of hair under her ear...about the size of a 2 pence piece. Come on now, someone who knows about genetics have a go at explaining it to me...(Im not sure I will understand though!!!)


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Labs, Goldens, and FCRs share their color genetics... other breeds have unique patterns of color genetics.

A Golden CAN have a few black hairs in a random patch. That has nothing to do with the gene for black hair/coat and is a random event.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Black spot phenomenon is explained in The New Complete Golden Retriever


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

You could cross-breed a Great Dane with a Golden, lie on the paperwork, cull out the giant Golden-looking off-spring and in-breed enough generations to make the giant Golden-look predictable/stable/set in the off-spring and voila: you can now sell super-giant Goldens for big bucks. (I could swear I've seen some 30+" and 130 lbs Goldens that have Great Dane features and some I've seen even looked like Newfie-crosses... but supposedly according to the paperwork they are pure-bred Goldens.)


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Monomer it's diff for diff breeds and groups of dogs. For example Black in a Whippet is NOT the same as black in a Labrador. Totally different genetics... totally different genes and modes of inheritance.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes, you could... absolutely! That's how many breeds began.... or how new crosses can be introduced (be it secretly or openly) into a breed.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Black spot phenomenon is explained in The New Complete Golden Retriever


I have that book! I will have to look it up tonight...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

In Whippets, most blacks are really brindle, genetically......... and in whippets, many fawns and reds carry the sable gene or masking gene... some do not... some are brindle without markings... some are not... it's really amazing!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Yes, you could... absolutely! That's how many breeds began.... or how new crosses can be introduced (be it secretly or openly) into a breed.


Unfortunately I suspect the prime motivator is money... big money and lots of sales... sigh.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

But think to early Goldens, when a setter was bred into them... when the breed was being first developed. It's not always a bad thing. But often it is money motivated.

I am NOT against open stud books. I think it would produce healthier, more genetically well rounded dogs. I am not against new breeds. Just be honest about it, is all I ask.


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## parrothead (Nov 1, 2007)

Is there a ban on creating new breeds.Seems to me even the GR was created at one point and time.It was ok then but not now why ? Don't get me wrong I'm not agreeing or dis agreeing just wonder how a new breed is produced.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Emma&Tilly said:


> hmmm this interests me as Tilly has a solid black patch of hair under her ear...about the size of a 2 pence piece. Come on now, someone who knows about genetics have a go at explaining it to me...(Im not sure I will understand though!!!)


That is soooo coool... You realize its as good as a tatoo... you'll always be able to pick Tilly out of a crowd (or should that be "a herd"? as in a herd of Goldens)


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

parrothead said:


> Is there a ban on creating new breeds.Seems to me even the GR was created at one point and time.It was ok then but not now why ? Don't get me wrong I'm not agreeing or dis agreeing just wonder how a new breed is produced.


I'm sure every breed started off as a mutt... its when you gain a fancy that you become a legitimate breed I guess. 

I think the problem is when trying to market a mutt as something else that's already in existance and that can turn people sour. As long as one is honest about what it is they are selling, I've got no problem with it.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I personally don't think there should be a ban on new breeds. And there is not!

Check out the Silken Windhound- a beautiful new breed! They are like a Whippet with long hair, or a small Borzoi. VERY up and up. They are NOT a designer dog. They are a breed, with a dedicated following of sighthound lovers.

International Silken Windhound Society

They are not a fad or money making venture. They are a real, beautiful breed.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

BTW Silkens started out when some people tried to claim that some long haired whippets were purebred whippets. They're not. Some still lie about this. They are separate and NOT associated with the Silken people, who are honest that their dogs are, indeed, a NEW breed.


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## parrothead (Nov 1, 2007)

Hey monomer Where in MI ? I'm from Jackson


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

A tiny insignificant town just north of the nearest big city, Big Rapids... And the local joke is that Big Rapids is neither "Big" nor "Rapid". and thus you've never heard of it either so let me describe it this way... 75-miles North of Grand Rapids.


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## Luvinmygoldens (Jul 16, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I personally don't think there should be a ban on new breeds. And there is not!
> 
> Check out the Silken Windhound- a beautiful new breed! They are like a Whippet with long hair, or a small Borzoi. VERY up and up. They are NOT a designer dog. They are a breed, with a dedicated following of sighthound lovers.
> 
> ...


I read through this site but couldn't see what breeds were used to produce this dog? I think they're beautiful though. Even the name "Silken Windhound" is beautiful!


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## parrothead (Nov 1, 2007)

We go 4 wheeling up by Cadilac


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

The Cadillac pathway is one great place to go hiking with your dog(s)... and in the winter you can go cross-country skiing there as well. Hungerford Lake area just west of Big Rapids is another such place... ....hmmmm... actually now that I'm thinking about it there are dozens of great places to run, bike, hike, ski, etc with your dog.... its God's country up here!

You know there is a Michigan meet-up being planned for the end of the month near Lake Orion (other end of the state near Flint)... you might want to think about joining us. Go check that thread out bud...


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Monomer it's diff for diff breeds and groups of dogs. For example Black in a Whippet is NOT the same as black in a Labrador. Totally different genetics... totally different genes and modes of inheritance.


Is this the same genetics that explains why Dals are born pure white then develop the blac or brown spotting later as they mature?

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

That happens in Setters too- I don't know why that is. It's the opposite in other breeds. Beagles, German Shepherd Dogs, and Schnauzers, for example, are all born black (except any white markings) and fade later to saddle marked or salt and pepper.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Silken Windhounds were bred from the original "Long Haired Whippets" that were so controversial, as well as the introduction of smaller Borzoi and possibly some "regular Whippets" too (not 100% sure on that last one).


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

One last comment before I take the dogs to the Dog Park (Whooopie!)...
There is nothing wrong with fad. I maintain every single one of us has been slave to it at some point (you should see my 60's pictures)... if you deny it I will call you a liar. Even today, many of my decisions are influenced by fad. The only thing I am against is knowingly producing unhealthy puppies and the lying breeders who then sell them... other than that, I'm pretty much okay with white, black, big, small, short, long and everything in-between.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

monomer said:


> One last comment before I take the dogs to the Dog Park (Whooopie!)...
> There is nothing wrong with fad. I maintain every single one of us has been slave to it at some point (you should see my 60's pictures)... if you deny it I will call you a liar. Even today, many of my decisions are influenced by fad. The only thing I am against is knowingly producing unhealthy puppies and the lying breeders who then sell them... other than that, I'm pretty much okay with white, black, big, small, short, long and everything in-between.


 
Ok Monomer - now we want to see those '60's pics! Come on - give um up! Now as for the fads ---- nooooo not me! I've never worn bell bottom jeans or stirrup pants, or white lipstick! (Ugggg - do any of you remember that awful white lipstick?? We looked like zombies! 

Jazzys Mom


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

Michelle Laurette said:


> Trainwrecka (and anyone else),
> 
> I thought you might like seeing this picture again of Golden Retrivers and their different colouring. I think it's cool and there are probably as many colours as there are Goldens but you get the idea. The one on the left certainly is very light but not quite white.


Wow that is an amazing picture. Where did you get this? Is there one of them facing front?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey Monomer- how was the park, and did you take pics?


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Hey everyone!!!

Well I am so happy I got on here to post!!! My original breeder emailed me back finally. Apparently shes not a member of the GRCA for personal reasons. Something about maybe when the individulas who are running leave she will rejoin. She couldnt provide me with any certifications thru fax or email. She dont have a fax machine to fax them to me. Cant figure out why she wouldnt go to the library or something to fax them to me or even give me a number or a name or something that I could look this stuff up online. Who knows!!! She said I would receive it when I picked up the puppy. But she said I did my homework and she totally understands if I want to withdraw my deposit for the puppy as its hard to find a good breeder. I'm sure she is a real good breeder but not the best. I am just afraid to go there. She even said she would refund my deposit.

I had gotten worried about the whole situation so I had emailed GRCA in NC and told them the story. They emailed me back this morning. Gave me a referral and red flags to look at. I discovered this breeder I was dealing with had some of the red flags. She recommed a place called Tanglewood Goldens also in NC. The puppies are about the same price but championship lines and have proof of the OFA and everything on the site. The site address is Tanglewood Goldens -- Golden Retrievers of English Distinction She was a referral I got from the Golden Retriever Club of America. So I am planning on giving her a call this weekend. I am so happy I came here and discussed this with you guys I might have had a heartache of bills with this other dog. Thanks again guys.

Kim
Beachwood NJ


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I am glad you have done your research and are looking at Tanglewood, they are TOP OF THE LINE quality beautiful dogs!!!! Congratulations on your decision!!!!


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Yes I am filling out the application as we speak. Just hope I fill this out correctly so I get approved. I cant see why I wouldnt but you never know. The puppies will be available at the end of May. She is breeding Jackie and Harry in January sometime. I'm glad I emailed the Golden Retriever club of America. So does anyone know how hard it is to get approved from Tanglewood for the dogs????

Kim


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

If you would like some help let me know... I don't know them personally but have heard great things. I do not prefer UK type dogs but theirs are pretty and as far as I know they are very ethical. Quality dogs. You did a good thing. Just talk to them... you live and learn and if they're really good breeders they will be happy to discuss anything with you


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

one of the questions on this forms is Does anyon who lives in your home, or who is a frequent visitor a smoker? Well my husband smokes. If I put that will it hurt my chances. Might be a stupid queston but never had to fill out an application like this for a puppy

Kim


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Also they have if you have put a deposit on a puppy with anyone else? if so who? Should I answer this truthfully?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I would say that you originally had, but you have decided per GRCA suggestion to go with Tanglewood, and are ONLY going to get a puppy from THEM at this point. That's the truth!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I would be honest. Does he smoke outside? Inside? Can you encourage him to smoke outside?


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I would be honest. Does he smoke outside? Inside? Can you encourage him to smoke outside?


 
Oh come summer he always does anyhow. In the winter its a little cold too.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Honestly is the best policy. I don't know them. But I would never turn down someone because they smoke alone. (Actually at all. We all smoke here, at least some of the time, and it's too HOT here to go outside all the time to smoke).


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I tell you the space between some of these questions is so small and its hard to be neat. I keep have to reprint the page


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

awww don't worry too too much. If it's meant to be... can you type them?

Can you CALL them? Maybe they say not to... in which case- DON'T! But if they don't respond to your application, maybe call in a week and say you're just really excited and wanted to check the status of your application


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Actually according to the website they do require a phone interview (if too far away) and also the puppy application. Then once approved they will accept your deposit. They ask you to mail the application but when I call them I will tell them my husband can put this in a pdf form and I could email it to her within minutes.

Kim


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

2) A personal interview in person or by phone (with
references) is required before a reservation will be
accepted.

So maybe they wont require the paperwork but I will fill it out anyhow just in case.

Kim


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Sounds like a plan... just be honest. Truly- if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about. NO ONE is perfect.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

How do you post pictures on here I would love to put a picture of my dogs?


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Ok tell me how this sounds.

how did you decide on a golden retriever? 

I've had them before and love the temperament of the dog. They are just so family oriented.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Sounds good!

If you have pictures on your computer, you can upload them. Don't use the quick reply. Go Advanced. Then, turn off your popup blocker if you have one. Click on the little paper clip icon. Then upload your dog's pics  If they are too large, email them to me at [email protected] and I will resize them. If anything doesn't work, email them anyway and I will be happy to post them for you. Include their name, age, and any other info.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*my dogs*

The first picture is Lady the little one is 5 the golden next to her is brandy shes been gone for almost 3 years now she was 13. That my black labrador whos 9


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Ok here is one for you.

Briefly tell us the attribute you would like your puppy/dog to possess?

What do you expect from us, the breeders of yuor pup?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

They are adorable!

Well for those, be honest again. What do you want in a Golden? What is the most important thing to you?

And well, what do you want in a breeder? Socialized, healthy, cleanly raised, handled puppies? Life long friendship and support?


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

That sound good I know what I wanted to put just didnt know how to put it. By the way my dogs picture my lady her full name is lady honeybee. I believe she was more from a backyard breeder. As you can see her little legs never grew. Shes a pretty big girl but her legs are short and have like a bend to them. I saw both her parents and they were beautiful goldens I guess I was wrong.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

She is a cutie pie!


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I guess the most important thing in a golden would be to have a calm temperament but a little goofy at times and from what I hear the males are real goofy but big teddy bears. I basically just want a calm temperament and just the basic loving ways goldens are. Hopefully you know what I am trying to say cause I am havign a hard time putting it in words.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

My email address is [email protected] by the way and my im is the same.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

That sounds just fine to me- exactly what your post says


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

BTW my IM is the same as my addy and my name here, too. I'm about to run and watch movies and chill but am always checking the forum. I added you to my AOL buddy list


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Chesneygirl, I am so glad that you contacted GRCA and found the red flags in time. That was the only reason we were all kinda hard on you, just to educate you so you wouldn't have heartbreak later on down the line. I have heard of Tanglewood although I don't know anything about them. They have a nice website that has the pertinent information on it and their dogs are beautiful. You sound excited and I am excited for you. Thanks for posting the pics of your dogs - they are really cute! Just to let you know, my Jazzys breeder required the puppy application and also an in-person interview. You said Tanglewood will go with a phone interview - thats great! We sent in the puppy appl. then drove 3 hours the next week for a 2 hour interview. I can sympathize with how you feel - I well remember that feeling! Am I saying the right things? Will I pass? Don't worry, they'll accept you. They just want to make sure that the puppy is going to a good stable home. Keep us informed of your progress. May is a good time to bring a new puppy in - getting warm outside and you won't have to freeze your butt off waiting for the little thing to sniff for 10 minutes before peeing!:

Congrats!

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Yes I am giving the breeder a call tomorrow I have the application basically filled out. This breeder is a 10 hr ride so there would be no way I could go out there to meet her. One of the questions is Will you allow a visit by the breeder or the breeder's representative (if too far away) before a puppy is placed in your home. So I guess at times they have someone visit or unless it just to see what people actually say.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

WOW! 10 hours! Its really nice that they will do a phone interview. Our breeder was telling us about someone from Europe who wanted one of there puppies. He told them they had to do an interview so they flew over here for the interview, flew back and flew over here again to pick up the puppy and fly it back to Europe! Must have had either lots of money or someone who worked for the airline!

Jazzys Mom


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Emma&Tilly said:


> I think people may be getting the impression that we have these massive, albino style goldies all over the place...QUOTE]
> 
> Haha! Albino Goldens!
> 
> I have a client with an Albino Doberman... he's creepy looking!


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Jazzys Mom said:


> WOW! 10 hours! Its really nice that they will do a phone interview. Our breeder was telling us about someone from Europe who wanted one of there puppies. He told them they had to do an interview so they flew over here for the interview, flew back and flew over here again to pick up the puppy and fly it back to Europe! Must have had either lots of money or someone who worked for the airline!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


Well I did the phone Interview today. She basically just told me about the dogs and how her deposit system works. I told her about the Golden Creek Kennels and she said she has someone come to her that took a look at the place and they had about 4 littlers at one time that kinda turned him off and there was about 12 dog he had seen but they were all nice looking dogs but he wound up going to her and getting a dog in the end. Anyhow she told me how the english line live longer but take longer to mature and train. She told me about the temperments of the two dogs and how she does not take the deposits until the dogs are bred which will be sometime end of january. So now I have to fill out this application and mail it to her which I told her I would mail them on monday. Funny thing is the lady down the street who has british goldens her litter is due any day now. She im me to give me first shot at them cause she shas alot of people who want to put deposits down on them when they are born. I told her it was too soon as I didnt have the money to bring a puppy home the week after christmas. If the other breeder dont approve me I will probably go with the lady down the street since she is giving me first choice. But I have to say Tanglewood Goldens are more beautiful and a little cheaper. My friend down the street told me she only charges $197 plus $30 for the crate to ship the dogs. I might actually just ask Tanglewood how much they charge and then decide if I want to pick the dog up in NC or get it shipped. First tanglewood has to approve me. But if not I dont need to worry I will have a puppy. I'll just go with the breeder here in town then. Shes breeding another litter in March.

Kim


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Well, you are past the first hurdle! Sounds like you have it planned out pretty well. Keep us posted!

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

OK I will. Kinda wish I had the money now and I would of went with the lady down the street. I started kidding with her and said do you take payment plans....LOL


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> OK I will. Kinda wish I had the money now and I would of went with the lady down the street. I started kidding with her and said do you take payment plans....LOL


Hey, maybe she would! Couldn''t hurt to ask. Since you live just down the street she knows you can't run without paying her so maybe she'll work out something with you

Jazzys mom


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes, she just might... but if you truly like the other ones better, follow your gut!


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Hi everyone

Well I am sending out my puppy application to Tanglewood Goldens today. Well I have a delima that I hope you guys can give me advice on. Well the lady down the street is still waiting for her puppies to be born and she said lets see how many mailes I get out of this litter and she would let me know if we could work something out. The price difference isnt a huge difference. I would be able to bring the lady down the streets dog home about the week after christmas whereas tanglewood goldens I have to get approved first and she is breeding them in end of January to be born in March to come home end of may beginning of June. Check out the two webiste and let me know what you would do. The first link is for the breeder down the steet. Let me know what you guys would do. Thanks again.

Kim

*Home*

Tanglewood Goldens -- Golden Retrievers of English Distinction


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## RoxyNoodle (Nov 9, 2007)

Looking the home one it states that she 'specialises' in whites/creams. I thought it was clear that 'whites' aren't permissable, and would go so far as saying 'fad-ish'. 

Tanglewoods site provides great detail about the various health scores, and I do like the look of thier dogs - they have a lovely square noses....in fact I've just looked at some of the lines - and there is a shared line with my girl. I can tell those lines from a mile off. So slightly biased, the tanglewoods would be worth the wait, IMO.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Both breeders have very pretty dogs. There are some noticible differences though. I would say that Tanglewood is definitely a breeder while "home" is more of a hobby type breeder. Tanglewood has all the K-9 Data on their website --- all the pedigrees where you can track everything. Home does not have this info ---- which does not mean anything, just that you can see where the dogs originate from. I notice that the Tanglewood dogs have some very strong lines, Kyron, Edgehill, Malagold to name a few. Good strong breeding here. Not to say "Home" does not have that too but no pedigree info is available on their site. I would say you have a decision to make here. Do you want the strong lines that Tanglewood can give you and wait a little longer? Or, do you want a puppy sooner? I think I would go ahead and send the puppy application in to Tanglewood. The fact that you are sending it doesn't mean you HAVE to take one of their puppies. I have sent in appl. for puppies then when they became available it just wasn't the right time. Breeders know that not all who fill out an appl. will be able to take a puppy. In the meantime talk to your neighbor and ask if her dogs are on K9 Data so you can see their pedigrees. If they are not on K9 Data she will probably offer to show you their pedigrees. See what their pedigree background is as compared to Tanglewood. Good luck with your decision and let us know what you decide. Ask any questions you want to here. We will help you all we can

Jazzys Mom


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Actually, Home is more of what I would call a high volume or at least a pin money breeder. Hobby breeders compete in some arena of dog sport and it does not look like Home does that at all.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Actually "Home" breeder does not compete in any of the sports with her goldens. I have checked on k9data and they are listed under a pedigree. They have all the creditials just not any titles for her goldens. I wouldnt call her a high volume breeder as she only has a maybe 2-4 litters a year. She does the english and she does the regular american and she does breed sometimes the half american/half english.

I asked her for the information on the two dogs she bred and here is what she gave me. Sure they arent show dogs but what do you guys think?

Pedigree: Belagio De Parmen Auriu


Pedigree: Mission Impossible Of Wolf Point

Kim


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Well, I don't recognize but a few names in either pedigree, which means absolutely NOTHING because I don't know much about the English lines. In the 5 generation pedigrees I did recognize a few of the kennel names and if you check the co-efficients of the bitch you'll see that it was influenced by Camrose dogs. I do know that the Camrose line is a good line. 

Emma may know more about these lines as she is in England. Maybe pm her and she can check for you to see if she knows these lines.

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Thanks Jazzys Mom. In fact I just did that. Pedigrees are like a foreign language to me whether it be english or american. So I have no idea what I was looking at anyhow. The lady down the street is still waiting for the puppies she said still no puppies. I'm sending out my application for the other breeder in NC tomorrow and we will just play it by ear. Though I'd love to have a puppy next month. I just love puppies!!!! And shes so close to me so it would be easy if I needed to stop over. But lets just see what happens now.

Kim


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## Princess Bella (Oct 17, 2006)

Why would anyone want white!! go with the dark colored goldens!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I do take exception to the comment that "English lines live longer". I do not believe that, as a blanket statement, is true. Camrose Cabus Christopher live to be not quite ten. I know of several other English bred dogs that averaged 8-10 years old. Look at the clearances as a whole, before making a decision.
I am always skeptical when a particular color or foreign fad is being marketed.


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

Great Pyrenees are wonderful dogs.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I do take exception to the comment that "English lines live longer". I do not believe that, as a blanket statement, is true. Camrose Cabus Christopher live to be not quite ten. I know of several other English bred dogs that averaged 8-10 years old. Look at the clearances as a whole, before making a decision.
> I am always skeptical when a particular color or foreign fad is being marketed.


I don't think anything was said about the longevity of the English lines. I have no idea if they live longer or not. You are right, that should not be a blanket statement

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I think the english creams are beautiful dogs and I know one way or the other I will get one. Not sure which one I'm going to go for. In a way I'm kinda towards the show dogs from tanglewood but I guess it really dont matter. I mean that is the only difference. The difference basically is one shows her dogs the other dont. But they are both of show quality. So I guess either way it would be a good dog.

Kim


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jazzys Mom said:


> I don't think anything was said about the longevity of the English lines. I have no idea if they live longer or not. You are right, that should not be a blanket statement
> 
> Jazzys Mom


On 11/10/07 @ 9:15pm, ChesneyGirl wrote:

"Well I did the phone Interview today. She basically just told me about the dogs and how her deposit system works. I told her about the Golden Creek Kennels and she said she has someone come to her that took a look at the place and they had about 4 littlers at one time that kinda turned him off and there was about 12 dog he had seen but they were all nice looking dogs but he wound up going to her and getting a dog in the end. _*Anyhow*_ *she told* _*me*_ _*how*_ _*the*_ _*english*_ _*line*_ *live longer* *but take* _*longer*_ _*to*_ _*mature*_ _*and* *train*_*.* She told me about the temperments of the two dogs and how she does not take the deposits until the dogs are bred which will be sometime end of january. So now I have to fill out this application and mail it to her which I told her I would mail them on monday. Funny thing is the lady down the street who has british goldens her litter is due any day now. She im me to give me first shot at them cause she shas alot of people who want to put deposits down on them when they are born. I told her it was too soon as I didnt have the money to bring a puppy home the week after christmas. If the other breeder dont approve me I will probably go with the lady down the street since she is giving me first choice. But I have to say Tanglewood Goldens are more beautiful and a little cheaper. My friend down the street told me she only charges $197 plus $30 for the crate to ship the dogs. I might actually just ask Tanglewood how much they charge and then decide if I want to pick the dog up in NC or get it shipped. First tanglewood has to approve me. But if not I dont need to worry I will have a puppy. I'll just go with the breeder here in town then. Shes breeding another litter in March.

Kim "


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Well I did the phone Interview today. She basically just told me about the dogs and how her deposit system works. I told her about the Golden Creek Kennels and she said she has someone come to her that took a look at the place and they had about 4 littlers at one time that kinda turned him off and there was about 12 dog he had seen but they were all nice looking dogs but he wound up going to her and getting a dog in the end. Anyhow she told me how the english line live longer but take longer to mature and train. She told me about the temperments of the two dogs and how she does not take the deposits until the dogs are bred which will be sometime end of january. So now I have to fill out this application and mail it to her which I told her I would mail them on monday. Funny thing is the lady down the street who has british goldens her litter is due any day now. She im me to give me first shot at them cause she shas alot of people who want to put deposits down on them when they are born. I told her it was too soon as I didnt have the money to bring a puppy home the week after christmas. If the other breeder dont approve me I will probably go with the lady down the street since she is giving me first choice. But I have to say Tanglewood Goldens are more beautiful and a little cheaper. My friend down the street told me she only charges $197 plus $30 for the crate to ship the dogs. I might actually just ask Tanglewood how much they charge and then decide if I want to pick the dog up in NC or get it shipped. First tanglewood has to approve me. But if not I dont need to worry I will have a puppy. I'll just go with the breeder here in town then. Shes breeding another litter in March.
> 
> Kim


 
Hi,

I know something about Tanglewood Goldens. I think they have fine dogs. I wish I had been patient enough to get one of theirs.

I did some research on English Goldens. They do seem to live longer. Go to Kyon Kennel's website and look at their memorial page. Some of their dogs lived to the ripe old age of 16. And I can attest to the fact they take longer to mature. Come meet Chaucer!!!


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

This may sound silly, but i just don't see how a dogs coat color effects how long it lives.

The way I see it, it all depends on the dogs lifestyle. A dark red Golden may out live a cream, or the other way around.... right??


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chaucer and Mom said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know something about Tanglewood Goldens. I think they have fine dogs. I wish I had been patient enough to get one of theirs.
> 
> I did some research on English Goldens. They do seem to live longer. Go to Kyon Kennel's website and look at their memorial page. Some of their dogs lived to the ripe old age of 16. And I can attest to the fact they take longer to mature. Come meet Chaucer!!!


And Wylwind Kennel in Ohio, Bruce and Ruth Wylie, have a very well known record of longevity in their dogs. American dogs. I myself have had dogs live to 16, again, American dogs. 
What I am saying is that to make a blanket statement suggesting that English lines are longer lived than American lines is irresponsible.


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> And Wylwind Kennel in Ohio, Bruce and Ruth Wylie, have a very well known record of longevity in their dogs. American dogs. I myself have had dogs live to 16, again, American dogs.
> What I am saying is that to make a blanket statement suggesting that English lines are longer lived than American lines is irresponsible.


It would be interesting to do some research on that. When I decided to get an English Golden, I was hoping to avoid the cancers that had killed my other Goldens. So I deliberately chose a dog with no American ancestors. Will it make a difference? And if it does, will that prove anything? I doubt it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chaucer and Mom said:


> It would be interesting to do some research on that. When I decided to get an English Golden, I was hoping to avoid the cancers that had killed my other Goldens. So I deliberately chose a dog with no American ancestors. Will it make a difference? And if it does, will that prove anything? I doubt it.


We had an English Import. Rossbourne Sabre In Love. Sabre was imported into the US from England by another breeder to introduce English lines into her breeding program. He was moderately dysplastic by 10 months. Her husband hunted over the dog - he was fabulous. When he suffered an injury that no longer allowed for him to hunt, they placed the dog with me, as my husband had fallen in love with him after hunting over him. He lived a wonderful life with us. He lived to 10. His dysplasia was kept in check with diet and exercise. He did develop cataracts, and died at age 10 of cancer.


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## goldencity (May 26, 2005)

One of my current dogs has Rossbourne ancestors.....
Do English GRs live longer? I dont know, but for what its worth, our first dog Ben lived to 14 and died of a stroke, Lucy lived to almost 14 and died of cancer, her sister Penny lived to 16, we had to have her put to sleep when her legs packed up totally. Milly [now 4] is very healthy, and Daisy [also 4 but from a different breeder] has had 5 mass cell tumers removed and dodgy hips.
Ithink where ever you get your dog from, all you can do is check the health clearences of both parents, make sure the puppy has been checked and only buy from a reputable breeder, not a puppy mill or farm.
BTW, Daisy's mum's hip scores were'nt very good, but we fell in love and got her anyway!


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> On 11/10/07 @ 9:15pm, ChesneyGirl wrote:
> 
> "Well I did the phone Interview today. She basically just told me about the dogs and how her deposit system works. I told her about the Golden Creek Kennels and she said she has someone come to her that took a look at the place and they had about 4 littlers at one time that kinda turned him off and there was about 12 dog he had seen but they were all nice looking dogs but he wound up going to her and getting a dog in the end. _*Anyhow*_ *she told* _*me*_ _*how*_ _*the*_ _*english*_ _*line*_ *live longer* *but take* _*longer*_ _*to*_ _*mature*_ _*and* *train*_*.* She told me about the temperments of the two dogs and how she does not take the deposits until the dogs are bred which will be sometime end of january. So now I have to fill out this application and mail it to her which I told her I would mail them on monday. Funny thing is the lady down the street who has british goldens her litter is due any day now. She im me to give me first shot at them cause she shas alot of people who want to put deposits down on them when they are born. I told her it was too soon as I didnt have the money to bring a puppy home the week after christmas. If the other breeder dont approve me I will probably go with the lady down the street since she is giving me first choice. But I have to say Tanglewood Goldens are more beautiful and a little cheaper. My friend down the street told me she only charges $197 plus $30 for the crate to ship the dogs. I might actually just ask Tanglewood how much they charge and then decide if I want to pick the dog up in NC or get it shipped. First tanglewood has to approve me. But if not I dont need to worry I will have a puppy. I'll just go with the breeder here in town then. Shes breeding another litter in March.
> 
> Kim "


 
Thanks Pointgold! I missed that somehow! Another red flag for Golden Creek, huh? This thread is getting really long!:

Jazzys Mom


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

I think it has more to do with the lines as opposed to American or English. You will find English lines that have cancer as well as American lines and you will find English lines that don't have longetivity in them just as you will American lines. I agree with Pointgold, this should not be a blanket statement. I have not had a Golden from English lines but my American Golden Dakota lived to 13 1/2 and died from old age! My Flirt died at 4 1/2 from Lymphoma. They were from the same lines, so go figure! My vet told me one time he had just seen an old Golden girl of the ripe old age of 17 1/2! She was from American lines.

Jazzys Mom


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

My friends mutt (farm dog) lived to be 23....they had to put her down because was starting to lose her walking abilities.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

WOW! 23! Now thats and old girl! Wonder if that's a record??

Jazzys Mom


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

No idea what the record is. She was a cute little dog. She looked kinda like an Aussie/Sheltie mix.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*white goldens*



Jazzys Mom said:


> Thanks Pointgold! I missed that somehow! Another red flag for Golden Creek, huh? This thread is getting really long!:
> 
> Jazzys Mom


 
Actually that was tanglewood Goldens that said that to me


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Oh it was? Well, don't let one remark from them sway your decision. If you like their dogs then by all means go for it! They do have really nice looking dogs

Jazzys Mom


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Actually I sent my application in today. I am more swayed towards tanglewood. Yes they are gorgeous dogs and they are good quality dogs. Yes I dont need a show dog because I cant show or breed it. And its only on paper it looks good. But I think this breeder knows whats she's doing and wouldnt jeopardize the health of the dogs. Eiter way I would make out but from looking at the pedigree on tanglewood it does have a good bloodline wheres the other breeders bloodline I am not sure .

Kim


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Actually I sent my application in today. I am more swayed towards tanglewood. Yes they are gorgeous dogs and they are good quality dogs. Yes I dont need a show dog because I cant show or breed it. And its only on paper it looks good. But I think this breeder knows whats she's doing and wouldnt jeopardize the health of the dogs. Eiter way I would make out but from looking at the pedigree on tanglewood it does have a good bloodline wheres the other breeders bloodline I am not sure .
> 
> Kim


When you consider the future health of your dog, it is a better bet to go with the good bloodlines. Trusting the breeder is important too. Personally, I think you are headed in the right direction.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Thanks so much. I really didnt know which way to go since I wasnt going to show the dog. I may in the future do maybe agility or therapy training. I will let you guys know if I am approved. I would think she would have it by Thursday and hopefully she will make a decision right away. Thanks.

Kim


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

*british goldens*



Chaucer and Mom said:


> Hi,
> 
> I know something about Tanglewood Goldens. I think they have fine dogs. I wish I had been patient enough to get one of theirs.
> 
> I did some research on English Goldens. They do seem to live longer. Go to Kyon Kennel's website and look at their memorial page. Some of their dogs lived to the ripe old age of 16. And I can attest to the fact they take longer to mature. Come meet Chaucer!!!


 
How hard is it for Tanglewood to approve your application and how long did it take? I sent mine in so I have decided to go with that breeder if they approve me. Just hope they do I really like their dogs and just everythign about them.

Kim


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> How hard is it for Tanglewood to approve your application and how long did it take? I sent mine in so I have decided to go with that breeder if they approve me. Just hope they do I really like their dogs and just everythign about them.
> 
> Kim[/quote
> 
> ...


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

I actually just emailed Kyron Kennels in Canada about the english goldens. I had to fill out a questionare and send it back to them. I just emailed it back tonight. I figured in case tanglewood didnt approve me I would have a back up. I actually heard from another breeder that Kyron Kennels is top quality dogs. Actually tanglewoods dogs have the Kyron Kennels bloodline in them. But Kyron charges $1300 plus a $200 deposit whereas Tanglewood its $1600 for their dogs. So I could actually get for $1600 with the shipping. So we will see. I will be waiting for an email back to see what dogs they are breeding this week. I also emailed tanglewood to find out how their puppy adoption procedure works and how long it takes. I havent heard from her yet though. I will let you guys know.

Kim


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

Doesn't the $200 deposit come off of the $1300? So after the deposit you would ower $1100 for the pup? Just curious


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## Chaucer and Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

pugmomwantsgolden said:


> Doesn't the $200 deposit come off of the $1300? So after the deposit you would ower $1100 for the pup? Just curious


Yes. But the total I paid was $1300


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Well my application is in and she said she would only call me back if there was a problem so no calls from her and she said she has me down for a 3rd male pup. I dont need to put the deposit down until the end of january when she breeds the dogs. Then today I got my deposit back from the other kennel so I am going to deposit that into my savings so I know where it is.

I was trying to think of a name for the dog. I was thinking Tucker or Dakota but they are so popular names. Though for the name tucker I thought the registered name would be All Tuckered out!!! What do you think guys???

Kim


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

Chaucer and Mom said:


> Yes. But the total I paid was $1300


I only ask because after reading Chesneygirls post I was worried about my own deposit. The breeder never actually said that the deposit would go towards the purchase price, I just assumed that to be true. I hope it is true! I'll have to ask so that I know what $$ I need to come up with.


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Yes the deposit comes off the purchase price. The golden I will be putting a deposit on is $1600 less the $200 deposit I will be putting down end of january.

Kim


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

good to know  I told my husband that this pup is $900, but it's really $1000, so if it was more, OMG I'b be SUNK


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## chesneygirl007 (Nov 5, 2007)

Well my application was approved. My golden is $1600 but wont be getting it til may june when they are ready to come home.


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

Well congrats!! You're expecting


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## scherber (Dec 1, 2007)

Just some info for you to digest, I did some researching on Tanglewood, since it was getting such high remarks and I wanted to see why. I checked the info with Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (which everyone should do). This female *Evangelina of Bridge Four**"Eva"*(Import from the Netherlands) On k9data the owner put Eyes- Clear, and on her website she put Eyes Clear. On offa.org it says G1-Fundus, retinal dysplasia-folds,
On the CERF website it is described Retinal folds rarely cause vision problems for the individual dog. They represent small blind spots which are probably not even noticed by the dog. However, large areas of dysplasia (geographic dysplasia) may lead to large deficits in the visual field and dogs with retinal detachments are completely blind. 
There have been many questions recently about the certifiability of dogs with retinal folds. Retinal folds may be seen in many breeds and still pass a CERF examination and receive a CERF number. This is due to the fact that the condition is thought either not to be hereditary in the particular breed or has never been shown to be connected to serious (blinding) forms of dysplasia. In some breeds, particularly Labrador Retrievers, Samoyeds, and English Springer Spaniels, individuals with retinal folds are NOT given a CERF number. Since retinal dysplasia is common in these breeds and dogs and bitches with retinal folds can have puppies with blindness and/or skeletal problems the gene should not be perpetuated. In all breeds, individuals with geographic and retinal detachment forms of retinal dysplasia are NOT certifiable. 

Tanglewood went ahead and bred this dog after the cerf report and Eva delivered a litter of 6 puppies in September. I personally would have spayed this female. There also was not enough info on the offa.org website of her ancestors to give me any different opinion.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

chesneygirl007 said:


> Well my application is in and she said she would only call me back if there was a problem so no calls from her and she said she has me down for a 3rd male pup. I dont need to put the deposit down until the end of january when she breeds the dogs. Then today I got my deposit back from the other kennel so I am going to deposit that into my savings so I know where it is.
> 
> I was trying to think of a name for the dog. I was thinking Tucker or Dakota but they are so popular names. Though for the name tucker I thought the registered name would be All Tuckered out!!! What do you think guys???
> 
> Kim


That's a popular name, we have at least one registered as All Tuckered Out here on the board. I bet there is an abundance of them in the AKC. I wonder how many are being registered in the last couple of years as "Nip Tuck"?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

(sorry double post, my computer burped)


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

scherber said:


> Just some info for you to digest, I did some researching on Tanglewood, since it was getting such high remarks and I wanted to see why. I checked the info with Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (which everyone should do). This female *Evangelina of Bridge Four**"Eva"*(Import from the Netherlands) On k9data the owner put Eyes- Clear, and on her website she put Eyes Clear. On offa.org it says G1-Fundus, retinal dysplasia-folds,
> On the CERF website it is described Retinal folds rarely cause vision problems for the individual dog. They represent small blind spots which are probably not even noticed by the dog. However, large areas of dysplasia (geographic dysplasia) may lead to large deficits in the visual field and dogs with retinal detachments are completely blind.
> There have been many questions recently about the certifiability of dogs with retinal folds. Retinal folds may be seen in many breeds and still pass a CERF examination and receive a CERF number. This is due to the fact that the condition is thought either not to be hereditary in the particular breed or has never been shown to be connected to serious (blinding) forms of dysplasia. In some breeds, particularly Labrador Retrievers, Samoyeds, and English Springer Spaniels, individuals with retinal folds are NOT given a CERF number. Since retinal dysplasia is common in these breeds and dogs and bitches with retinal folds can have puppies with blindness and/or skeletal problems the gene should not be perpetuated. In all breeds, individuals with geographic and retinal detachment forms of retinal dysplasia are NOT certifiable.
> 
> Tanglewood went ahead and bred this dog after the cerf report and Eva delivered a litter of 6 puppies in September. I personally would have spayed this female. There also was not enough info on the offa.org website of her ancestors to give me any different opinion.


Thanks for the info. A lot of us are just learning how to research different breeder lines. That discrepancy is enough to get that breeder banned from K9DATA. GRF just recently saw that with another breeder.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

scherber said:


> I personally would have spayed this female. There also was not enough info on the offa.org website of her ancestors to give me any different opinion.


Hello,
I'm new to the board, but this caught my eye before I could send my introduction in. To spay a bitch because of something that may or may not be genetic is a rather close minded attitude. The large picture must be taken into account in cases like this. The saying, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, comes to mind.

Also the reason there isn't more information on OFFA.org on this bitches ancestors, is because she is from another country where they have their own scheme.
Cheers
Rob
Conquerer Registered


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

chesneygirl007 said:


> I was trying to think of a name for the dog. I was thinking Tucker or Dakota but they are so popular names. Though for the name tucker I thought the registered name would be All Tuckered out!!! What do you think guys???
> 
> Kim



Yep, that would be my dog's registered name.

Tucker being the call name.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Conquerergold said:


> Hello,
> I'm new to the board, but this caught my eye before I could send my introduction in. To spay a bitch because of something that may or may not be genetic is a rather close minded attitude. The large picture must be taken into account in cases like this. The saying, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, comes to mind.
> 
> Also the reason there isn't more information on OFFA.org on this bitches ancestors, is because she is from another country where they have their own scheme.
> ...


The part I see missing in all the recent discussion threads about the role of OFA and health certs is NOT anyone's breeding practices (which it seems people keep fixating on) but rather its about THE LIE(S). Whether this eye defect is genetic or whether dogs with hip or elbow dysplasia should be bred, etc. are all issues that can be discussed with good points to be made on both sides... breeding practices and beliefs are individual and do vary between breeders... however, the real ISSUE as far as I am concerned, be it GoldRocks or Tanglewood or whoever, is when they choose to lie about it! I cannot abide by this practice. If you choose to breed a dog with certain physical traits be honest about it, especially to puppy buyers/potential customers. The issue brought up here about Tanglewood is NOT about retinal dysplasia-folds in the eye and if its genetic or a major fault... its about not owing up to it on K9data. It makes me think the subject of retinal folds in the dam is not being brought up and discussed with the puppy buyers... as I think it should be mentioned both on K9data and to potential puppy buyers. I would definitely like to hear an explanation from that breeder, as often the case is, there's another side to the story to be considered but as it stands now, so far I gotta admit it does look suspiciously like intentional misleading on the part of this breeder.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

monomer said:


> If you choose to breed a dog with certain physical traits be honest about it, especially to puppy buyers/potential customers. The issue brought up here about Tanglewood is NOT about retinal dysplasia-folds in the eye and if its genetic or a major fault... its about not owing up to it on K9data. It makes me think the subject of retinal folds in the dam is not being brought up and discussed with the puppy buyers... as I think it should be mentioned both on K9data and to potential puppy buyers. I would definitely like to hear an explanation from that breeder, as often the case is, there's another side to the story to be considered but as it stands now, so far I gotta admit it does look suspiciously like intentional misleading on the part of the breeder.


I think that's a pretty hefty assumption to make. Just because it's not on k9data doesn't mean a thing, and I personally don't believe one has any reason to assume it's not being discussed with potential puppy buyers. The point is, as I see it, the bitch got a clearance, and I'm assuming the breeder isn't afraid to hide the fact there is a breeders option associated with her clearance since it was submitted to CERF, thus showing up on their & the OFA database. After all, the report didn't have to be sent in (I haven't sent in one of my bitches latest CERF reports, even though it's normal...just never got around to it, does that mean I'm hiding something?).

Cheers
Rob


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Conquerergold said:


> I think that's a pretty hefty assumption to make. Just because it's not on k9data doesn't mean a thing, and I personally don't believe one has any reason to assume it's not being discussed with potential puppy buyers. The point is, as I see it, the bitch got a clearance, and I'm assuming the breeder isn't afraid to hide the fact there is a breeders option associated with her clearance since it was submitted to CERF, thus showing up on their & the OFA database. After all, the report didn't have to be sent in (I haven't sent in one of my bitches latest CERF reports, even though it's normal...just never got around to it, does that mean I'm hiding something?).
> 
> Cheers
> Rob


If I read the posting correctly the breeder entered CLEAR next to EYES on K9data (in case people aren't aware this is done on an honor system) and her own website but yet OFA reports G1-Fundus, retinal dysplasia-folds. Its like me saying... I'm selling a car with a bad oil pump but since other people selling cars with properly functioning oil pumps don't mention oil pumps either then I'm not being dishonest by not mentioning the condition of it or even worse, by saying the pump is good. If the breeder chooses intentionally to list EYES as CLEAR on K9data, I wouldn't think it a stretch to believe the subject isn't being brought up to puppy buyers... in fact I would be quite surprised if the reverse was true... but anything is possible that's why I say there is often another side (or more) to the story... I'd just like to know what it is.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> If I read the posting correctly the breeder entered CLEAR next to EYES on K9data and her own website but yet OFA reports G1-Fundus, retinal dysplasia-folds. Its like me saying... I'm selling a car with a bad oil pump but since other people selling cars with properly functioning oil pumps don't mention oil pumps either then I'm not being dishonest by not mentioning it either or by saying the pump is good. If the breeder intentionally lists EYES as CLEAR on K9data, I wouldn't think it a stretch to believe the subject isn't being mentioned to puppy buyers... if fact I would be quite surprised if the reverse was true... but then again that is why I say often there is another side (or more) to the story... I'd just like to know what it is.


Actually, if you look this dog up on K9data the word "clear" is not there, the owner simply lists the CERF number. Being the untrusting soul I am I checked the edit history, and as it turns out the word "clear" has never been there. As to what it says on the breeder's own website, I honestly don't know, I haven't looked. And if the word "clear" does appear on the website, then I would agree with you that this is misleading and a questionable practice.

Julie and Jersey


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Oops, I take that back. The owner listed it as "clear" until it appears she received her official CERF number (a month later, at the end of 2006). But at the time the poster made his complaint it was not listed as "clear". I had to go back and doublecheck because I don't trust my memory either. Good thing, because I don't like to give out inaccurate information if I can help it.

Julie and Jersey

PS~ I checked the website, and what it appears to me is the breeder is using clear as an abbreviation of clearance. It says: "Eye clear: CERF- GRxxxxx". Again, I don't know this breeder and have no vested interest, but I do think there have been some misunderstanding/misinterpretation in this case. I can't speak to any of their other clearances or other dogs, I only looked at the specific one the poster mentioned (Eva).


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Nice catch Julie... this is what I mean by there being another side to the story. I was just going by what was in that earlier posting (being lazy) and didn't bother to verify. Thanks...

EDIT: As penance I just check her website and next to Eva's EYES all that's listed is the CERF number.
So bottomline here is that poster was inaccurate in her facts about Tanglewood.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

No problem. I've been through some old threads on this site, enough to know that this was an abberation for you. From what I understand you're "Mr. Research!" I'm just a bored insomniac, so I figured why not check it out?

Julie and Jersey


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Jersey's Mom said:


> ...what it appears to me is the breeder is using clear as an abbreviation of clearance. It says: "Eye clear: CERT- GRxxxxx"...


BINGO!!! I think you got it! "Clear" as an abbreviation for "Clearance"... good one. I think that Clears up that misunderstanding. Bottomline is no one was being dishonest, including the poster.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

monomer said:


> If I read the posting correctly the breeder entered CLEAR next to EYES on K9data (in case people aren't aware this is done on an honor system) and her own website but yet OFA reports G1-Fundus, retinal dysplasia-folds.


That's where you are incorrect, there isn't the word 'clear' on k9data, and it has never appeared there (checked the change history). I suggest you go to the k9data page and see all of the information this breeder has put there, as well as her website. 

When a Golden gets it's CERF number it is considered clear (since CERF will NOT give a number for a dog effected with a genetic issue, to the best of my knowledge, other issues are put under Breeders Option, thus they are either not genetic or there is still too little information about the issue).

While I fully understand that you are basing your comments on this thread alone (which contained false information), in future respects I hope we all take the time to do a little more research before posting our assumptions (and yes, I'm very much guilty of doing that very thing lol).
Cheers
Rob


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

No offense, but we already cleared this up. Monomer admitted he hadn't researched it and even offered penance. No need to whip out the wet noodle! (sorry, I just like that phrase)

Julie and Jersey


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> No offense, but we already cleared this up. Monomer admitted he hadn't researched it and even offered penance. No need to whip out the wet noodle! (sorry, I just like that phrase)


No offence taken. The posts that you wrote, and Monomer replied, were not there when I hit reply, but where when I hit the post button. Simple crossing of posts is all.

Cheers
Rob


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Conquerergold said:


> No offence taken. The posts that you wrote, and Monomer replied, were not there when I hit reply, but where when I hit the post button. Simple crossing of posts is all.
> 
> Cheers
> Rob


I do that all the time! I should have figured that's what it was! :doh: 

Julie and Jersey


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Conquerergold said:


> ...The posts that you wrote, and Monomer replied, were not there when I hit reply, but where when I hit the post button. Simple crossing of posts is all...


That's all part of the charm of participating on Internet forums...
Oh, and welcome to the forum... If you intro yourself formally, you'll get a bigger welcoming committee... of course you'll probably have to wait until morning, there too few of us night owls.


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