# The "perfect" weight for agility?



## Pilot'sowner

Hi everyone,

Pilot and I have been taking agility classes for about 4 months now and he is the star of our beginner class. He is incredibly focused (most of the time) and loves every minute of it. He has mastered every obstacle except for weaves and teeter and works hard every week for me. Anyway, i'll stop bragging about my little superstar and ask my question!

We have worked really hard to get his weight down. He was 80 pound when we got him and is now down to 72.6. The vet says he looks perfect, he has a defined waist and you can feel his ribs pretty easily. But, my agility instructor says he still needs to lose 2-3 pounds or more! Pilot is about 23 inches tall (from floor to withers) and 25-26 inches long (from withers to base of tail). I understand that dogs are supposed to weigh less for agility, but how much less. What do you think an ideal weight would be? I've attached some pics that will hopefully help.

Thanks in advance.


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## kgiff

I think a lot depends on the structure of your dog. My big guy is 23.5" tall and I try to keep him slightly under 70 lbs. This is a dog that weighed 93 when we started agility and our vet told us we wouldn't be able to get him under 85. 

On the purina body weight chart, I'd say they're a hair under ideal. There are a lot of vets I do agility with and they let me know if they're too far under- or over-weight.


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## Pilot'sowner

That is a good point about bone structure. He is a LOT bigger boned than some of the other tiny, as in maybe 50 pound, goldens I see doing agility here. I guess I just want to make sure he not fat!


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## AcesWild

he does look, "big boned"


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## HovawartMom

My golden measures 23in for 60pds!.
Yes,he would,probably,feel better by losing 2 or 3pds cos it will easier on his bones and speed!.


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## FlyingQuizini

Yup. You want "lean" which I'd say is 2-3 lbs under "perfect" for a normal, pet dog.


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## MurphyTeller

FlyingQuizini said:


> Yup. You want "lean" which I'd say is 2-3 lbs under "perfect" for a normal, pet dog.


Almost exactly what I was going to say - to me (and I haven't had my hands on him to know for sure) is that he is heavier than I'd ever have one of my agility dogs. I generally keep my boys 3-5lbs under what a pet ideal weight would be - and I don't go by actual scale weight because both are quite fit dogs and carry quite a bit of muscle - I go by condition, ribs and feel....

Erica


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## AcesWild

Moxie fits through the bars of the courtyard gate don't know if that has anythig to do with skinniness or moving her body right. (Never seen her actually escape)


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## Pilot'sowner

Thanks for all the answers. I guess my new question is if he's not actually competing in agility, just taking classes once a week and practicing almost everyday at home, does he still need to be 2-3 pounds lighter? Sorry for all the agility newbie questions!


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## FlyingQuizini

Pilot'sowner said:


> Thanks for all the answers. I guess my new question is if he's not actually competing in agility, just taking classes once a week and practicing almost everyday at home, does he still need to be 2-3 pounds lighter? Sorry for all the agility newbie questions!


The dogs don't know the difference between training and competition. If he's *DOING* agility, he should be lean. BTW, class once a week and practice daily is more agility than most competition dogs do!


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## Maxs Mom

I have two dogs, one in training one actively competing. Belle my competing lab is 27" tall and 85 lbs. You can feel her ribs, vertabrae, defined waist, excellent muscling. Even with all that 85lbs is a lot coming down off the size jumps she is required to jump. You need to think about the whole picture. 

You want strong muscles, to protect from injury but being lighter will keep them better over the long haul in my opinion. I still would like to get a few more pounds off Belle, but her food intake is low, her activity pretty high. I think she is just at a plateau. Perhaps as the summer progresses she will lose more. 

Teddi my young golden is in training. I keep her THIN!!!!! She is 24" tall according to the AKC, and we do not let her go over 60 lbs. For her she has structural issues even before agility. The less weight they carry the better off the dog is. However I do have the other side of the issue with Teddi. She does not have enough fat on her body to draw energy from. She has been known to "crash" in high activity situations. We have to make sure she is fed more frequently during these times to sustain her. 

I was told ever pound a dog is overweight is equivalent of 10 pounds on you or me.


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## GoldenOwner12

I was thinking of doing agility with Einstein when he was younger but they wouldn't take him. Einstein weighs 40kgs/88 pounds. Yes he may look overweight but you feel him and he differently not overweight. He can feel his ribs pretty easy and even some of his back bone. The agility trainer said he would have to be 35kgs/77 pounds, He was 77 pounds at 6 months old. If Einstein was 77 pounds at 2 years he would be nothing but skin and bone. I even got written veterinary appovval for Einstein to do agility and still they turned him down. I was very upset and there was no way i was going to put Einstein on a diet and let him be skin and bone, When i could already feel his ribs and some of his bone bone.


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## MurphyTeller

Pilot'sowner said:


> Thanks for all the answers. I guess my new question is if he's not actually competing in agility, just taking classes once a week and practicing almost everyday at home, does he still need to be 2-3 pounds lighter? Sorry for all the agility newbie questions!


Two thoughts - if he's just learning he's more apt to make mistakes and risk injury. A dog who has considerable jump training - starting with bars on the ground and LOW jump should have a pretty good feel for his body and striding. He knows what he needs to put where and when.

More important than whether or not he is competing is how high you are jumping him. If he's heavy and you're jumping 8" that is a lot different than being heavy and jumping 24". FWIW when I show Teller in the breed ring he needs to have more weight on him - about five pounds and he's still the leanest dog in the classes (one of the reasons we're not showing in breed right now) - when he is heavy I don't do much if any agility work with him. If he jumps I'll put the bars down to 12" or 16" - and that is only 5lbs added to his 60lb frame. And while not your post...yes, in my opinion an 88lb golden regardless of "bone" is too heavy to do agility - Its not an acceptable risk for the dog.

If you haven't read it already I can't say enough good things about Pagey Elliot's DogSteps book (and video)...her work in structure and function has not been duplicated. The other resource I'd recommend is Julie Daniels/Chris Zink's book Jumping A to Z. 

Careful thought and training go a long way towards a safer canine experience and ultimately a sounder dog.

Erica


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## Pilot'sowner

We have done lots of exercises to teach him how to jump properly and the highest he does now is 12. We did low bounces (jumps one stride apart) and lots of other exercises to properly learn how to jump. Everything has been introduced very slowly. He is in very good shape even with the extra two pounds and has tons of stamina. Safety is one of my primary things. I would NEVER push him do hard or ask him to jump to high. Even now he does about three or four obstacles in a row with lots of space in between.


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## MaddieMagoo

I think the answer that you have been looking for has been pretty much summed up! Yes, I agree that agility dogs, and even obedience dogs should lose weight. I'd say maybe 5 more pounds and he should be good! By telling from the first picture, his waist was a bit big...but don't fret, there's easy ways to cut down the weight! Agility dogs are supposed to or "idealy" be a lean, mean, fighting machine! LOL!  By cutting down weight...the longer he'll be your agility partner! 

My Maddie is 24 inches and I have her in the Preferred class because she can't quite jump that high, consistently. I also think that she has hip problems...but we don't know for sure. 

And don't worry about all the newbie questions...we've ALL been there before!


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## kgiff

I wanted to add that my vet told me I couldn't get Cisco under 85 pounds because he was just "big boned." Even at 93 pounds, you could still feel ribs on him. My vet was absolutely shocked when I brought back a 67 pound lean mean fighting machine. 

I think vets get to used to seeing so many dogs that are overweight that even a few pounds heavier than ideal may seem fine to them. And I'm not sure most vets understand the stresses placed on the body of a canine athlete and why it's better to keep these dogs leaner than a pet.


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## Phillyfisher

How do you know when you have taken it too far? How thin is too thin? Just curious~ BTW- Pilot is beautiful. Our Tucker is 24" and about 73#. He is lean and muscular, built very similar to Pilot. He has to be 18 mo to start agility, so hopefully this fall we can start with him. I am surprised at how many people, even golden owners are surprised at his build. So many people are used to seeing "sausage goldens".


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## gabbys mom

I just want to make a quick observation- there is a big difference between fit and healthy for agility and too thin. And agility trainers often believe that thinner is better- to the point where it's just silly. 

For example, my agility trainer often remarks that I should take more weight off Gabby. However, my vet is an avid agility competitor and teaches agility classes part-time- so when he says she is perfect, I believe him! I think trainers often get into the thinner is better mindset and forget to look @ the individual dog, goals, etc.


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## hotel4dogs

my 2 cents worth....
My vet says that virtually everyone feels a dog in the WRONG place to determine if the dog is overweight! 
Dogs don't carry fat over their ribcage (about halfway down their sides) unless they are VERY overweight, so you can feel many dogs' ribs even though the dog is overweight! 
He says you need to feel the ribcage about 1-1/2 inches to either side of the spinal bone. It should feel like the back of your hand feels if you lay your hand flat on a desk etc. and gently run your finger over the knuckle joints where your fingers meet your hand (not the knuckles on the fingers themselves). If it doesn't feel like that, your dog is overweight.
He says you should be able to feel the spinal bone vertebrate individually with gentle pressure, but they should not protrude. Same with the hip bones; you should be able to feel them readily with gentle pressure.
FWIW.




kgiff said:


> I wanted to add that my vet told me I couldn't get Cisco under 85 pounds because he was just "big boned." Even at 93 pounds, you could still feel ribs on him. My vet was absolutely shocked when I brought back a 67 pound lean mean fighting machine.
> 
> I think vets get to used to seeing so many dogs that are overweight that even a few pounds heavier than ideal may seem fine to them. And I'm not sure most vets understand the stresses placed on the body of a canine athlete and why it's better to keep these dogs leaner than a pet.


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## hotel4dogs

I was also told to put a couple pounds on Tito for the breed ring, but I REFUSE to do it unless it's solid muscle pounds put on by more exercise. I don't disagree with muscling up a dog for the breed ring, but I don't see that that would be a problem in either agility or obedience if I were to put a couple of pounds of good solid muscle on him. 
But I flatly refuse to "fatten up" my dog just so he looks bulkier. :no::no::no: The weight he's at now shows a nice, well sprung ribcage and I think that's preferable to a sausage!
I should show in the ring with Teller! Tito might take his place as the leanest dog in the classes !



MurphyTeller said:


> FWIW when I show Teller in the breed ring he needs to have more weight on him - about five pounds and he's still the leanest dog in the classes (one of the reasons we're not showing in breed right now)
> Erica


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## katieanddusty

"Too thin" would be when the dog doesn't have any muscle despite a decent amount of exercise, when the dog's energy level is suffering, or when the SPCA stops you on the street threatening to take the dog away. Apart from that, if the dog is muscular and full of energy and doesn't look absolutely atrociously malnourished, I don't see how there could be a problem. There are a few agility people who are just used to seeing 35-pound Border Collies and want Goldens to be thinner than they can be without losing muscle/energy, but there's a lot more new-to-agility people with overweight dogs who write it off to "those crazy agility people" (until one day they take the weight off and are all happy that it's like running a completely different dog).


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## GoldenOwner12

I believe a dog should have some fat covering the ribs to me if they got accidently hit in the ribcage by another dog in full speed it could do more damage. Goldens to me aren't meant to be lean, I like seeing some bone on them. I also can't stand the lean labrador all legs no body. When Einstein was 2 years he could easily clear a 4ft fence without a problem. I only wanted to do agility for fun and get out and about Einstein. Einstein was showing great interest in it too, We watched agility and Einstein was trying hard to get into the ring to try it. All of Einsteins life he has been running up stairs,accross bridges,jumping,going down slides he loves doing all that and still does at 10 years old. Einstein is at his weight, I did have Einstein down to 38kgs one stage but he didn't look good. You could just touch him and feel his ribs and all of the back bone. Where now you can feel the ribs with slight pressure and feel the bone bone just at the bottom half of his back.


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## FlyingQuizini

*Goldens to me aren't meant to be lean.*

IMO, *any* working breed will be healthier in the longrun if kept lean. Lean doesn't = too skinny or malnourished. There's a big difference. Dogs kept lean and appropriately muscled are better protected from injury, be it from working or even running for a ball in the yard.

And no dog should ever be fat. There's no reason for it. We control what they eat - we can keep them from being overweight. Now, if someone would just control what I eat, I might successfully drop those 10 lbs.....


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## sammydog

I keep my dogs in "hard working condition"... 

We exercise daily, train regularly and I am always paying attention to what I feed them.

All dogs are going to be happier and healthier if kept at their ideal weight. For a working dog I think that weight is a little less than a pet dog weight.

My big boys are 26" tall at the withers and Sammy is 72 lbs and Barley is 76 pounds. They are 5 1/2 years old. Mira is just under 22" tall and 50 lbs but at 16 months I expect her to put on a few more pounds before she reaches her "adult" weight.


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## Maxs Mom

hotel4dogs said:


> I was also told to put a couple pounds on Tito for the breed ring, but I REFUSE to do it unless it's solid muscle pounds put on by more exercise. I don't disagree with muscling up a dog for the breed ring, but I don't see that that would be a problem in either agility or obedience if I were to put a couple of pounds of good solid muscle on him.
> But I flatly refuse to "fatten up" my dog just so he looks bulkier. :no::no::no: The weight he's at now shows a nice, well sprung ribcage and I think that's preferable to a sausage!
> I should show in the ring with Teller! Tito might take his place as the leanest dog in the classes !


Oh I am so glad to read this. So often I think the dogs in the breed ring are overweight. Some are muscled but some are not. I especially would like to see labs show with more definition than they do. Goldens at least have all the coat to help with the picture.


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## hotel4dogs

most of the labs I've seen in the breed ring look like kegs on legs....



Maxs Mom said:


> Oh I am so glad to read this. So often I think the dogs in the breed ring are overweight. Some are muscled but some are not. I especially would like to see labs show with more definition than they do. Goldens at least have all the coat to help with the picture.


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## FlyingQuizini

hotel4dogs said:


> most of the labs I've seen in the breed ring look like kegs on legs....


You mean the ones you see in the Flabrador Retriever ring?


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## Maxs Mom

OKAY maybe now I am hijacking please forgive me. :smooch:

Why do they do that??? I LOVE labs they are my second favorite breed. However they do NOT have to be so freaking fat! My girlfriend shows labs rather successfully, but hers while not athletically thin, at least show a waist. On a lab board I am on I see pictures and I just shake my head. 

I have often wanted to walk my lab into a breed ring, she is fit, thin and HUGE!!!! She is not "standard" but I have had a lot of compliments on how beautiful she is. 

Maxine my senior golden when she was younger, a trainer came up to me and asked if I had spayed her. I had. She said "too bad, she would do spectacularly in the ring". I have always thought she is very correct, but she is taller than standard too. As she has aged, quite gracefully, a number of golden people have told me she is a beautiful dog too. She has never been fat, she is very square, very proportionately put together. She is a big girl too. 

I too have called labs "flabradors" I do not think there is a breed out there with the drive for food like a lab. They are easily ballooned out. I can speak from experience. Belle was over 110 pounds at one point, she now as I stated earlier is 85. Both DH and I love how she looks.

I do understand the different disciplines (agility vs conformation) require different looks, but please leave the tubs at home!


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## gabbys mom

Esh. As the owner of a conformation-bred Lab, I think a lot of the comments about Flabadors are pretty unneccessary  . My girl was perfectly fit and a lean 64 pounds and running several miles a day and doing agility before her surgery. 

I think it's important to keep in mind that it may be a golden forum but it's not a great plan to make fun of other breeds. Never know what other people have or do with their dogs.


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## Heidi36oh

Mine are not working dogs yet, but I keep them in shape, never want a overweight dog again.

Jack and Chewie at 26 " are 75 and 77 pounds, Sadie is a perfect 65 pounds and Chloe the growing pup is 68 pounds at 24".


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## Heidi36oh

gabbys mom said:


> Esh. As the owner of a conformation-bred Lab, I think a lot of the comments about Flabadors are pretty unneccessary  . My girl was perfectly fit and a lean 64 pounds and running several miles a day and doing agility before her surgery.
> 
> I think it's important to keep in mind that it may be a golden forum but it's not a great plan to make fun of other breeds. Never know what other people have or do with their dogs.


Don't think anyone is attaching labs, just stating the fact that a lot of them get big. I also have a lab and she is at a perfect weight.

I think it's just so much easier to see weight gain on a short hair dog then a long haired dog.


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## katieanddusty

No need to get all offended. I have a 60-pound 22" Lab boy and of course I know that no one here thinks less of him due to his being a Lab and not a Golden. Everyone at agility loves him (or they would if it weren't for all the high-pitched barking .


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## FlyingQuizini

gabbys mom said:


> Esh. As the owner of a conformation-bred Lab, I think a lot of the comments about Flabadors are pretty unneccessary  . My girl was perfectly fit and a lean 64 pounds and running several miles a day and doing agility before her surgery.
> 
> I think it's important to keep in mind that it may be a golden forum but it's not a great plan to make fun of other breeds. Never know what other people have or do with their dogs.


I don't think anyone is making fun of the *breed*. I don't understand why they are shown so heavy. Even friends of mine who have Labs, and who do agility and conformation - and therefore struggle w/ finding a weight that's safe for agility, but "big enough" for the show ring complain about it.

I rip on fat Goldens, too. Just don't have a clever name for them. Golden Flabtriever, perhaps? Doughnut Retriever?


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## hotel4dogs

Sorry if you took it as a slam against the lab breed, it was not intended to be that way at all. My comment was simply a complaint that a lot of the labs that are shown in conformation are too heavy for my taste.
An acquaintance of mine is trying to show her two labs in both UKC and AKC and has commented that her dogs never win ANYTHING in UKC because the judges always tell her they're much too fat and should be shown in hard working condition. In AKC they don't do well either because the judges always tell her they need to be "more substantial". (Although I think she has confused FAT with MUSCLE....)


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## Maxs Mom

gabbys mom said:


> Esh. As the owner of a conformation-bred Lab, I think a lot of the comments about Flabadors are pretty unneccessary  . My girl was perfectly fit and a lean 64 pounds and running several miles a day and doing agility before her surgery.
> 
> I think it's important to keep in mind that it may be a golden forum but it's not a great plan to make fun of other breeds. Never know what other people have or do with their dogs.


No offense intended here either! I too have a lab who went from "flab" to "fab"! You have to admit, many owners out there let there labs have just a few too many cookies. We are just the good lab owners who keep our girls looking good! 

I find most everyone on this board and on my lab board have COMPLETE respect for the other breed. I first heard the term "flabrador" from Labrador owners. I thought it was funny. They do like their food. At least mine thinks I am starving her. LOL


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## hotel4dogs

here at the pet hotel we also call them slobber-a-dor retrievers because of the way a lot of them drink, and sometimes blabrador retrievers if they're rather barky. My favorites I call lap-rador retrievers. But I do like labs, and it's all meant in good humor.




Maxs Mom said:


> No offense intended here either! I too have a lab who went from "flab" to "fab"! You have to admit, many owners out there let there labs have just a few too many cookies. We are just the good lab owners who keep our girls looking good!
> 
> I find most everyone on this board and on my lab board have COMPLETE respect for the other breed. I first heard the term "flabrador" from Labrador owners. I thought it was funny. They do like their food. At least mine thinks I am starving her. LOL


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## FlyingQuizini

Haha... "Blabrador!" That's funny!


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