# Agility/Border Collies: An Ethical Question



## monomer

On another thread currently going, I noticed several posters 'beating up' on Border Collies in agility. Last fall the husband of a woman acquittance, who participates in agility with 2 rescued Borders, made a remark that "The sport of agility was designed specifically for the Border Collie". Now I immediately 'blew' the comment off as being 'tongue-in-cheek' but a couple of days later I began to think more about that statement and realize that there probably is some small truth there. The distances and dimensions of the obstacles are pretty much fixed (the height of the jumps and pause table being the only variable as height classes change)... and these dimensions, spacings, distances, etc. are preferential to dogs similar in physiology to the Border Collie... plus Border's are very agile and can turn on a dime... they are very 'job' oriented and know how to focus... AND they are consider extremely intelligent... it's little wonder then that they excel at the sport of agility... actually they flat-out dominate the sport and its no secret! In fact, it is believed by many in the sport that if you really wish to compete at the highest levels in agility then you MUST have a Border Collie. And so I notice that many people adopt rescue Border Collies. Several people that I met both last year and now, this year have adopted Border Collies from rescue. Almost all of them compete in agility.

Several months ago I joined an agility board and over time it became obvious that the vast majority of people on the board owned and were competing with Border Collies obtained from rescue... it seems to be a bragging point to insert into any conversation the fact that "my Border Collie is a rescued dog". After reading all the posts by rescued Border Collie agility enthusiasts... a post was made that included a comment that people have to go through at least 6 or 7 rescued Borders to find their champion! ...That's returning one rescue and getting another! Wow... I was in shock... it never occurred to me that people were getting rescues and taking them out for what is essentially a "test drive" to see if they are agility champion material. My first reaction was one of repulsion at the concept but since then I've begun thinking maybe its not really a bad thing in that at least the ones with agility championship potential are being given a home and a job to do. What do the rest of you think about this practice? Also I think now I understand why there are so many rescued Border Collies out there when 15 years ago there were practically none... and to think I had been blaming the movie Babe for that...


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## AquaClaraCanines

I don't think it's any worse than the vast majority of serious (and truly sucessful, top notch) show people who go through dog after dog after dog in seeking their next special. And I think it's BETTER to rehome a dog that will not fulfill your dreams/hopes into his own, appreciative, adoring home than to keep him and get yet ANOTHER dog therefore ending up with six pets who get no attention while you focus on your star. I have NO problem with it. Such is the way of the world. As long as the animals are provided for with caring homes (be it the original adopter/purchaser or a new home that person selects with care) then I have no problem at all with such practices. I have placed dogs I couldn't "do stuff" with or who didn't fit in my pack nicely enough to live life to the fullest at my house. They are happier in their new, hand selected ideal homes. IE, I would NEVER own a dog that was dog aggressive, even if he got along with my dogs. My daily trip to the dog park, and my enjoyment of doggy activities would mean that dog aggressive animal would spend a lot of time home alone in a crate while "everybody else" went out and had fun. That's not something I can live with. So that dog would be placed in a more suitable home. And so forth. Now of course certain quirks are allowed and compensated for- but you get my point.
Commit to all your dogs, and if they don't work out, that's not a crime- but be certain you take responsibility and find the RIGHT home for that dog.


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## AquaClaraCanines

PS I like Border Collies, and they do rock at agility 

But I still think Dixie would kick some BC butt. LOL


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## katieanddusty

Beating up? You just wait until YOU work your butt off to improve your dog's course times by 20 seconds and still don't place ...  

Agility has always been for big dogs. When agility began in England there were (and still are) very few small dogs. So few small dogs in fact that they used to not even bother putting the jumps down from 30" for the small dogs.

Border Collies are very physically suited for agility, but not so much as Shelties. Most Border Collies have trouble with tight turns which are the norm in AKC and also show up in USDAA.

Having a rescue dog and/or a herding breed is a bragging point in agility to the extent that if you get into a training discussion, you hear variations on "you don't have any experience with rescue/herding dogs so shut up." Apparently rescue and herding dogs aren't governed by the same laws of learning that govern every other breed and personality of dog and every other animal.

People do that with both rescue and non-rescue border collies. I know someone who returned a dog to the breeder because the dog had a weave pole problem that this trainer didn't want to work through.

There are so many rescue border collies out there because people think they're the most intelligent breed, and don't realize that the dog's ability to make associations between behaviors and consequences doesn't mean they come genetically hardwired to follow commands.


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## AquaClaraCanines

PS are you suggesting people who adopt an ALREADY homeless dog and then place it to adopt a better competition dog are the cause of the BC rescue problem? I doubt it, if anything they help it by placing their washups in good pet homes then taking in yet another dog.

BCs are in rescue b/c they are the wrong dog for just about every average pet home in America. And b/c John Q Idiot seeking a puppy thinks that being on top of the "trainability" list that was printed in newspapers a decade a go equates "the perfect brilliant dog" and goes out to buy the "smartest breed" as his next pet, then can't handle that dog's intense drive and extreme energy levels. And yes, the movie Babe! lol


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## RickGibbs

monomer said:


> What do the rest of you think about this practice?


I don't even know what to think.... On one hand, I can see what you're saying....at least the one good at agility gets a home. But don't you still feel bad for the ones that get sent back? And maybe it's a little better than getting new puppies, then testing them and taking them to rescues. So at least they are taking dogs that are already without homes.....


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## monomer

I was thinking the BC explosion was a direct result of the movie Babe (a la 101 Dalmatians) but now I'm thinking it was more due to the rise in the popularity of agility... which actually preceded the movie.

This is just what I'm thinking... its not like I really know anything...


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## AquaClaraCanines

It's like Greyhound racing- look at all those dogs. And no, I'm NOT against commerical racing (and I am a Grey lover and have owned this breed). I'm not against gambling, and I'm not against breeding magnifcent animals for their ultimate purpose. Greys LOVE to race. As long as the racing kennels, tracks, and farms take responsibility for their dogs, donate to rescue causes, and secure a placement for all of their dogs, then I am fine with it. When it ticks me off is when the less caring kennels dump the dogs when they are done racing, with no provisions made for their care. But a few bad eggs can ruin the sport for everyone... isn't that true of all sports? There are gross agility people, disgusting dog show people, and horrific obedience people... but there are plenty of great ones, too.


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## AquaClaraCanines

That's possible... interesting thought. I'm going to ask my BC friend her opinion!


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## monomer

AquaClaraCanines said:


> That's possible... interesting thought. I'm going to ask my BC friend her opinion!


...and this is in reference to????

Actually I had to quickly post something, anything because I just noticed my count of postings was 666 :uhoh: ... the 'mark of the beast'... as soon as I press Enter I should be safe :crossfing ...


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## AquaClaraCanines

LOL in reference to all of it... the whole thread  She's very dog savvy and involved with dog sports so I will find her opinion interesting.


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## monomer

Okay, so what happens to the logic if we now insert "human" where ever we see "dog" in the explanations above... in other words, how would this whole ethical question 'play' with another species... 

...say, if we could adopt a human child to see if they had the potential to be track star and if after a few weeks we determine the poor kid's got two left feet, we simply return that orphan and pick out another one... and keep doing this until we run out of orphans to try or we find our track star and live happily ever after. Does this change the 'equation'?


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## monomer

katieanddusty said:


> ...Agility has always been for big dogs. When agility began in England there were (and still are) very few small dogs. So few small dogs in fact that they used to not even bother putting the jumps down from 30" for the small dogs...


Last fall I watched an Irish Wolfhound! qualify in excellent... after just watching him barely 'squeak' through the tire, I held my breath as he went into the tunnel, I was just sure he'd get stuck... poor guy had to crawl the whole way through. Thus, I would say the sport is very biased toward medium sized dogs... well, like say... a Border Collie! :doh:


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## katieanddusty

People don't make money from having children who are math wizards. An increasing number of people are full-time agility instructors, seminar presenters, authors, etc. If your dogs don't do well, people don't come to your classes or seminars, or buy your books, or print your articles in their magazine. The top agility people need dogs who do well. A lot of them specifically breed for agility (some breed the craziest BC they can find to the craziest BC or even JRT they can find and call it "drive," others are more careful). A lot of them buy BCs from those people and rehome them if there is a problem. But the ones who want the "bragging rights" from having rescue dogs, get rescue BC after rescue BC until they find one that doesn't give them any problems.

I don't like the mindset that dogs are only a vehicle for their success and income, but rehoming the dogs is better than putting them in a crate and hardly ever paying attention to them ...


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## RickGibbs

monomer said:


> Thus, I would say the sport is very biased toward medium sized dogs... well, like say... a Border Collie! :doh:


I admit, I don't know much about agility....don't they have different classes? The one event I saw had posted on the screen that it was the 24" level. And all the finalists were border collies. Doesn't seem fair that a golden should be competing against borders....


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## katieanddusty

The 24" division is supposed to be for dogs over 22" but it is legal to jump dogs in higher divisions than they measure into. All of the Border Collies you see (with veeery few exceptions) jumping 24" do not measure into 24. The national championships for 24" have literally NEVER been won by a dog who is over 22" tall.

There is a growing push in agility to add a 26" division and make the 24" division only for dogs over 22" tall, but it's not getting much support because little dog people don't care and BC people are against it.


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## RickGibbs

katieanddusty said:


> There is a growing push in agility to add a 26" division and make the 24" division only for dogs over 22" tall, but it's not getting much support because little dog people don't care and BC people are against it.


Seems logical to me. Wouldn't you like to run without having to go against those borders?


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## vrocco1

monomer said:


> This is just what I'm thinking... its not like I really know anything...


ROFLOL. Maybe we should be debating whether any dog should should be allowed to participate in agility. The incidence of injury is very high. And, unfortunately, we are not talking about minor injuries either. They retire, and are then bred only because they are agility champions. However, as aqua-clair pointed out, this type of behavior is prevalent in other forms of competition also. Many people in the breed ring live through their dogs, like a mother living through a childhood beauty pageant. They can't win, but their child can. I don't think that is "right" either.
I know a lot of people (not dogs, because they don't have a choice) that participate in agility, and some are obsessed with it. Many are so driven that it results in serious harm to the dogs. My point in an earlier thread, is that Boarder Collies excel at agility, because the sport almost designed within their natural abilities in mind. Therefore, they are less subject to injury. 
I really have nothing against agility. You'll note that there are two agility champions with advanced titles listed on my "brags" page. What I don't care for is the obsession that ends up with injuries to the dogs.


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## katieanddusty

Yeah, especially the way the MACh title works. The standard course time is set by the judge, and you get a MACh point for every second under the standard course time for perfect runs, and if you win the points are multiplied by 2. And you need 750 points for the MACh. The faster Goldens average around 15 seconds under course time. That's a lot of perfect runs unless you place.


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## katieanddusty

vrocco1 said:


> What I don't care for is the obsession that ends up with injuries to the dogs.


I agree 100%. There are people who start doing full-height obstacles with 6-month-old puppies so they can start competing at 12 months. There are people with 12-year-old overweight dogs who are still competing at full height because they only need X legs for such-and-such title. To put a dog's health in jeopardy for anything, with the exception of SAR dogs who save human lives, is disgusting.


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## vrocco1

Is everyone up to let the dogs out? (I am) These posts are late even for the Pacific Time Zone LOL


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## katieanddusty

It's only 11 and it's not a school night


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## vrocco1

katieanddusty said:


> To put a dog's health in jeopardy for anything, with the exception of SAR dogs who save human lives, is disgusting.


On that we agree, my friend. Now go to bed  (see my preceeding post LOL).


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## RickGibbs

vrocco1 said:


> Is everyone up to let the dogs out? (I am) These posts are late even for the Pacific Time Zone LOL


I don't think Samson likes these late nights. He gets woke up to make extra trips outside, just because I'm awake. He walks so slow going outside...like he really wants to be in bed.

Late? I don't even know what late is....


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## vrocco1

RickGibbs said:


> I don't think Samson likes these late nights. He gets woke up to make extra trips outside, just because I'm awake. He walks so slow going outside...like he really wants to be in bed.
> Late? I don't even know what late is....


Yeah, I know that attitude  None of my bitches are like that, but the dogs just have that "oh leave me alone" look. It's 6am, and I just saw it LOL Of course Jesse and Cider are in NY on business (a golden retriever specialty) so maybe they'd do the same thing.


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## vrocco1

katieanddusty said:


> A lot of them buy BCs from those people and rehome them if there is a problem. But the ones who want the "bragging rights" from having rescue dogs, get rescue BC after rescue BC until they find one that doesn't give them any problems.


I wonder if the people that get these "rejects" consider them to be rescues?


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## greg bell

we have the same practice in field trial dogs only it is not with rescue dogs.. the statistic I see is that the average field trialer will wash out 5 or 6 pups before getting one that can compete at the top level. However, these dogs almost always find a good hunting home. Hunters get a well trained retriever at a bargin price. I can say with some assurance that NO washed out field trial retriever goes to a rescue shelter. well, no may be too extreme, but I have never heard of it happening.


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## vrocco1

greg bell said:


> we have the same practice in field trial dogs only it is not with rescue dogs.. the statistic I see is that the average field trialer will wash out 5 or 6 pups before getting one that can compete at the top level. However, these dogs almost always find a good hunting home. Hunters get a well trained retriever at a bargin price. I can say with some assurance that NO washed out field trial retriever goes to a rescue shelter. well, no may be too extreme, but I have never heard of it happening.


Well, another great thing about field trials is that you are not competing against each other. It's just you and your dog against nature. In general, I think that the people that participate in field trials get along with each other much better then say people in the conformation ring. 
At a conformation event, everyone hates each other, and will do anything to stick one to you. At a field trial, (at least at the beginner level) generally everyone is very helpful and symapthetic when your dog rolls on the bird instead of picking it up


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## AquaClaraCanines

I have no problem with agility. Life sucks. Accidents happen... but for the most part dogs LOVE agility, most NEVER get hurt, and they have a fantastic time. What's funny is I had a dream last night about training my old Whipper in agility at the park (which I do, every day) but the obsticales were HUGE and larger than normal. It was weird lol

I also lure course my dogs. WAY more injuries occur in LCing than agility I would imagine. Dogs die lure coursing. I have personally seen it happen. But they LOVE it. My Whippet would walk away from five steaks, three bitches in heat, and his own soul to run that lure... why would I deny him that pleasure if he is fit and healthy? I would truly rather take the small risk of a freak accident then deny him his greatest happiness.

As for comparing it to people... I don't think you can... people don't have kids to get a football star. If they do, I think that's wrong. But dogs are not people.


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## Goldndust

I think agility was made for all dogs, it just so happens some are better made for it then others. They all can do it, but it really depends on how far you want to take them, and if you want to take them as far as one can go....your best bet is to have one that is very agile and on the smaller end of the scale and has some good speed and drive. An 80 pound golden isn't gonna go very far out there, not when there running up against a border. If your just in it for the fun of the game, and your dog...go for it and don't let it stop you because i'm sure they really do love it. I think borders are very very intelligent dogs, but I also think our goldens are. 

I've never done agility, and I would tend to worry about those fast turns and such, wouldn't want to blow out a knee on my dog. It's surprising how few of accidents of this type you do hear about.


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## katieanddusty

vrocco1 said:


> I wonder if the people that get these "rejects" consider them to be rescues?


The politically correct term for it is "rehome" ...


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