# Extreme submissiveness. Help!



## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Waffles said:


> Hello
> 
> I got the female golden retriever about a month ago when she was 9weeks old.
> When I went to pick her up, She was the only one there..She did not come to me when I approched her and she started showing her belly to me.. Breeder mentioned that she started show little submissiveness when last sibling left..
> ...


Hello Waffles
Oh dear! I think that this is a difficult problem to answer. Your puppy sounds a pitifull little thing and it must be hard to watch her like this. I don't think it can be your fault and I can't see that changing food will have caused this problelm. It is more than likely that she is naturally a bit shy and has had very little exposure to people, particularly if she was raised in a kennel. Things may also be made worse because you are having to bathe her every hour to keep her clean. 
From what you say I am not sure if you want to keep this puppy and personally I can't see that the breeder would be likely to refund your money. 
To keep her or not is the first decision you have to make and if you do decide to keep her I think you will have to work very hard at bringing her round to being more confident. If it were me this would mean keeping the puppy by me for as much of the time as I could, doing everything with her - even taking her to bed at night for a while. I am not sure if I would keep her in a crate very much, although I understand that this might not be practical for you. 
It is quite difficult to put forward many ideas because I cannot actually see what is happening, what your circumstances are and I don't know how experienced you are with dogs generally. Perhaps someone else can suggest useful things to help you and your puppy. 
If you do decide you cannot keep her I hope you don't send her back to the breeder. I am sure there will be experienced people on this forum more than willing to help you find another home for her so that she has a chance to come out of herself and become a happy, confident pup. 
I wish you well and once again I am sorry for the problem you have and I really don't think it is your fault, although what happens from now onwards is in your control. I hope there will be a happy outcome for everyone.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

There are fear periods and she may be in one, but this still sounds excessive. I think you need help from someone with a lot of experience. What does you vet say?


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

This post just breaks my heart on so many levels...
IMHO...a healthy, well-bred, 13 week old puppy should not be acting as you describe.

Please find a behaviorist (not just a trainer...but a behaviorist) to evaluate the pup now....don't delay...there may be things you can do to turn this around and they will be most effective if implemented now.


There are so many places where this may have stemmed from...
poor breeding
a sickly pup
a first time dam with poor mothering skills
a lack of human socialization
a lack of sensory stimulation...
to genetic submissiveness...
or a combination of several of the above...


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

I brought the trainer to seek professional opinion.
She was so scared and she could not even move...she was dragging her rear when the trainer offered her treat with constant urination.. and she could not open her eyes as she was blind.. the trainer told me that it will be very very hard to bring her to normal golden as she is such young pup but acts too extreme.. he said in 20years in this business, he never saw a golden pup act like this.. He also disagreed that we caused this because he was amazed how my older one acted around him.

My vet said she got worse than when she saw her last time. she could not see any physical problem but she thinks that it comes from lack of socialization and suggest me to contact the breeder; She knows how my older golden is, so she disagree that our environment caused this to her.

So, I talked to breeder and he basically yelled at me to putting her through so much things at such a young age and insist that it is trainable behavior and we are causing this. (no mention about the reason he bred his dam at 10month old) Also, He blamed me for not potty training her and he said she was half way through,,well she was kept in kennel and I SAW her urinating wherever when I went there. I do try to potty train her but she release herself instantly when she sees people. how could that be even possible... I can not even get near her without her pissing on herself and dragging her.

I asked him if he would willing to take her back because I did not want her to live in such a fear and thought she would do better with her mother; did not even mentioned about the refund and he simply ignored me.

She is getting bigger everyday and it really is hard to keep her clean; I can not live her being soaked, since I have a toddler and my house would be disaster.

He has the new litter and expecting one more litter anyday, so I doubt that he would have the time for her..

I do not even know if I should keep her or rehome her, I can not even rehome her .. people asked me If she was rescued in the vet office.. I was so ashamed when I said "No,,, She is just like this..that is why I am here"..

We have only one dog(our golden) and she was just easy to train, picked up everything by herself really quick..so I do not have much experience with dogs..

the breeder kept claim that this behavior was caused by the first week in our home....and He never had any puppy that had trouble..sigh ..  

I was thinking about sending him angry email since I was being very nice always but his reply was always with full of anger.. Should I tell him that the puppy was not as described; He advertised as well socialized/playful/happy/healthy puppies and he said she will overcome this very quickly... and I should actually ask for a refund with pup return? I never even mentioned of refund one time.

Thank you for all the inputs


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Oh, this makes me so sad. It must be very difficult for you having to go through this with such an innocent puppy. It sounds like you are working hard on this.

Did the trainer offer any suggestions, activities or games you can play to help you bond with your dog? Does your puppy seem interested in playing at all? Is she food motivated? And your vet is 100% positive that there is nothing physically wrong with her?

I would stop listening to what the breeder says to you. He sounds like a jerk who was only interested in your money.

How do you approach your puppy when she's in her crate? This is going to sound silly, but maybe it you approach her on your hands and knees rather than standing at full height, maybe she will be less intimidated. And perhaps you only open her crate door and allow her to come to you. She needs to understand that people = good, and that they are not to be feared.

You have your work cut out for you. But goldens are inherently social with people... she may not ever be "normal," but I think with a lot of effort and hard work on your part, hopefully you can gain her trust and help her develop into a happy dog.

I'm sorry you're going through this, the whole situation makes me so sad.

If you don't think you can work with this I strongly urge you to locate a golden retriever rescue in your area. They will do whatever is necessary to find your puppy a good home. With a dog like this you can't just put an ad on Craigslist. You need caring devoted people to help her (and you!) out. I am sure there are members on this forum who could let you know what rescues are in your area. Whatever you do, don't return this puppy to the breeder. My guess is she'd just be shoved in a cage until she was old enough to start pumping out puppies.


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

Sorry for my previous post, I just gave her bath and as soon as I put her on the floor she laid down and peed again .. so I was not myself while posting this.

When I went to pick her up, the pup was kept with other dam who had puppies at sametime, he said she was better mother than actual dam.

Also, She started to make really loud snorting noise almost 24/7 it sound like she has something in her throat like..I can not describe what it is. She snores really loud when sleep but it is not the same,, It sounds almost like shes has hole in her neck.. maybe sounds like people with asthma trying to breath.

She does this everytime.. Should I take her to vet for this? My vet bill is going crazy and I and my husbnad are in early 20s. sigh


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

kdmarsh said:


> Oh, this makes me so sad. It must be very difficult for you having to go through this with such an innocent puppy. It sounds like you are working hard on this.
> 
> Did the trainer offer any suggestions, activities or games you can play to help you bond with your dog? Does your puppy seem interested in playing at all? Is she food motivated? And your vet is 100% positive that there is nothing physically wrong with her?
> 
> ...


I used to get near her on my knees but she urinates in crate; worst case because she gets soaked entirely.
So I started to crawl toward to her even below her height, she urinates.
now I go from behind the crate where she can not see me and open the door to let her out but she will not move,,, and she urinate when she sees me eventually...

Vet said she was fine at 11weeks old , but she started make very weird noise as she could not breath well but shes not panting or anything seems normal but only will make noise. I started to worry about this as well.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Is it possible for you to take her to another vet for a second opinion? I'm curious about your description of her dragging her rear end and urinating while having her eyes closed. That sounds really strange to me. I suppose it may just be extreme submission, but I would like a vet to rule out any neurological issues.

Is she ALWAYS like this around you, or just after she's been resting/sleeping?

I know the pain of vet bills. My puppy had to have surgery when she was 11 months and it was brutal on my wallet. :/ Puppies can be expensive!

Oh, just read about the breathing issue. That to me warrants a trip to the emergency vet if she is struggling to breathe.


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## Bogart (Nov 14, 2009)

Did you meet the pup's Mom? Was she just as submissive? For sure it is not normal for a pup to be so submissive.
My older Golden did a little submissve/exited peeing when some one would visit the house and come in the door. We ignored it and it was only a short time and it was over. 
could you ignore her peeing for a while don't bath her all the time I know must be hard on you but it might makes everything worse.
Maybe have wipes on hand and just wipe her off later take her outside don't let her watch you clean up her accident. 
Don't make a fuss about it stay as calm around her as possible don't look straight into her eyes. 
Not sure how this could be handled diffrently I have never seen such a submissive puppy. 
I have a 5 month old male golden and he is the total oposite he is a self confident little guy I don't think he will ever think of submissive peeing.
How did you find this breeder? He sounds almost like a puppymill.


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

kdmarsh said:


> Is it possible for you to take her to another vet for a second opinion? I'm curious about your description of her dragging her rear end and urinating while having her eyes closed. That sounds really strange to me. I suppose it may just be extreme submission, but I would like a vet to rule out any neurological issues.
> 
> Is she ALWAYS like this around you, or just after she's been resting/sleeping?
> 
> ...


She does not seem in pain or struggling it just sounds like that to me.
I have no clue why she would close her eyes..she will not be able to see where her enemy would come with her eye closed!  jk.

She always acts this way to stranger but she acts this way after resting/sleeping whenever she was not with me for a while. She plays fine after few minutes if there was a miracle so she would only pee and not get soaked I play with her she acts fine but she forgets instantly.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I would keep an eye on the breathing thing and if you continue to observe it I would take her in to make sure she doesn't have any sort of sickness.

I think it's good that she acts normal around you after she gets through her initial period of fear. When my dog Flora was a puppy she would instantly urinate the moment she saw another dog. There was no question about whether she was going to do it, she just did.

She doesn't do it around dogs anymore, but she is very timid around dogs still. I think your puppy will grow out of the submissive peeing if you take things slowly with her. No loud noises, no sudden movements, and a lot of encouragement.

I really hope one of our more knowledgeable members chimes in with some training suggestions.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Waffles said:


> She does not seem in pain or struggling it just sounds like that to me.
> I have no clue why she would close her eyes..she will not be able to see where her enemy would come with her eye closed!  jk.
> 
> She always acts this way to stranger but she acts this way after resting/sleeping whenever she was not with me for a while. She plays fine after few minutes if there was a miracle so she would only pee and not get soaked I play with her she acts fine but she forgets instantly.


What happens when you just ignore her completely when she wakes up? How about when you open the crate, can you do that by approaching the crate sideways (straight on can be perceived as aggression), unlocking it, opening the door and just walking away without speaking to her or interacting with her?

The less fuss and attention she gets on initial greetings, the less likely she is to urinate submissively. I wish you lived nearby, I would love to take her and keep her for a couple of weeks to see if I could get her past this. It sounds as though she's been very undersocialized while at the breeders.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

After reading your additional posts, it sounds as though this breeder is just a terrible breeder! Of course her mom wasn't a good mom, she was just a puppy herself. 

How did the surrogate mom act towards the puppy? Was she making lots of corrections to her? That could have caused her to be more submissive, too.

The noise she is making sounds like a reverse sneeze. That could also explain the loud snoring. You may need to take her to the vet to get it checked out.

Does she sleep in your room at night?


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I agree ... its my opinion that the damage was done before you ever brought this pup home.
IMHO...The peeing while scooting with eyes closed is an _extreme _form of submissiveness...a reversion back to the age before their eyes are open. A signal to other dogs and any other creature bigger then a 3 week old pup.....I am no threat...Im so weak, small, young my eyes are not even open...
I wish you could get your hands on this pup too FM....

Write off the 'breeder' - you are never going to get any support from him/her.

Get on with the pup....either dedicate your life to fixing her - which is going to involved many many hours of time and energy as well as vet visits and appointments with behaviorists. --or-- re-home her into experienced hands.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> I agree ... its my opinion that the damage was done before you ever brought this pup home.
> IMHO...The peeing while scooting with eyes closed is an _extreme _form of submissiveness...a reversion back to the age before their eyes are open. A signal to other dogs and any other creature bigger then a 3 week old pup.....I am no threat...Im so weak, small, young my eyes are not even open...


I didn't know this, how awful. This poor puppy must have never seen another human while she was at the breeder's.


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## cory (Aug 23, 2010)

This just breaks my heart I hope you can find someone to help her. (and you)


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

*I have an unbelievable news. I can not believe this.*

I have contacted breeder and he asked if I was expecting any refund if he let me bring the puppy ; Excuse me? I paid $1500.
And he was generously offered me $100 from whatever he gets from selling the pup again ; so you will sell her for another $1500 and you will give me $100 and keep $1400. Otherwise, he was yelling at me for trying to rehome her with full reg locally, and he told me to put contract that dog will not be bred without health test at 18-27month...he bred his two sisters at 11month old???

I had enough and I finally told him that I expect full refund and he can have her all tests done such as parvo at my cost. Also told him If he was so concerned about age and health test why he bred his two bitches at 11month old at the same time to same stud. I felt so insulted, I kind of felt that he was doing this because I am from Japan. I had my husband write an email to describe her with better grammar in fact hes american.

Then he said I was making this up and I did this to dogs. I was doing something to her so she turned that way and he said he has a video of her playing well with him;yes, he does about 10 seconds. she just walks there and sit next to his last sibling.

And he threatened me that if I was ever mention of his kennel name while rehoming the puppy he will sue me or something.. I can not mention where dog was coming from? then what should I supposed to say?

and he added that 'please find a GOOD home' so I replied to him 'I will, please produce GOOD puppies; I hope he does not sue me for this lol!!

Is that true its perfectly find to breed female at 11month old? he said I have wrong idea of age and 11month is fine.

DUH. He freaked out as soon as I mentioned why he bred his female at 11month old and refund. jesus christ. I feel bad for the puppy.


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

fostermom said:


> What happens when you just ignore her completely when she wakes up? How about when you open the crate, can you do that by approaching the crate sideways (straight on can be perceived as aggression), unlocking it, opening the door and just walking away without speaking to her or interacting with her?
> 
> The less fuss and attention she gets on initial greetings, the less likely she is to urinate submissively. I wish you lived nearby, I would love to take her and keep her for a couple of weeks to see if I could get her past this. It sounds as though she's been very undersocialized while at the breeders.


She would not get out of cage if I just leave the door open. I even hid and watch she does not come out but I know she needs to go. so I crawl and offer her treat..she will come out with her rear dragging and eye closed + urinating. then will take a treat and I pick her up and put her outside...by the time, she has nothing left to release.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

If you decide that you won't be getting the price back on this puppy and are willing to let her come here to NC, I will get a transport set up and I will take her and work with her. I will keep her as long as it takes to get her past this and then find someone through our rescue to take her. I promise she will be loved and cared for by not only me, but the final adoptive home she goes to. She will not leave my house before she is no longer submissively peeing. I promise! I also will not make one penny off from her, everything will be done through my rescue (goldenrescuenc.org), that's another promise. 

I want you and her to be happy. That's all.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm confused... are you returning this puppy to the breeder? I hope not, I worry so much about the pup if she goes back to him, he sounds like a puppy mill type "breeder."

I think it would be wonderful if we could get the puppy to fostermom, although I wonder if that would be like, horrifying for the puppy since she's already so timid?


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

Hi all, 

after I talked to the breeder, I thought I would spend one more time with her before I start to look for her home. I took her to the old park-ish place which has very large trees and very quite. No one ever comes here; I used to came here when I had hard times but I never saw anyone coming here at least.

She was terrified as I was going to hurt her  She urinated literally entire way there;10mins drive.

She was so scared to death and just laid on her back on the ground with her eye closed. I just sat further away from her , did my own thing; I actually had to do homeworks 

I spend about two hours there, she dragged her body toward to me after I just sat there 2hours. I was so shocked because she was wagging her tail and putting her face on my knee.. of course, she urinated and got so scared again when I stood up from bench but we had to go home.

She is still scared after we got home and peed on the way to door. well, I do not know how should I translate this. Should I give another try and she may come out of her shell?


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

fostermom said:


> If you decide that you won't be getting the price back on this puppy and are willing to let her come here to NC, I will get a transport set up and I will take her and work with her. I will keep her as long as it takes to get her past this and then find someone through our rescue to take her. I promise she will be loved and cared for by not only me, but the final adoptive home she goes to. She will not leave my house before she is no longer submissively peeing. I promise! I also will not make one penny off from her, everything will be done through my rescue (goldenrescuenc.org), that's another promise.
> 
> I want you and her to be happy. That's all.


Yes, I will definitely talked to my husband but she showed a tiny changes about few hours ago and I am not sure if I should give it another try.

But if it does not work out, I will be happy to.


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## jpajinag (Nov 25, 2010)

I am not sure if this is even the right thing but thought you could give it a try???

You said she is scared to come out of kennel and pees instantly but the eventually sorta warms up to you but then looses it instantly when she goes back to her kennel so:
Could you carry her around on a doggie / baby carrier and hand feed / water her then directly outside and back into your arms until she starts to realize that you are always safe and her care giver? She is still pretty small right? Just an idea?

Also if she is too big to carry could you use a small kennel that is right next to the door and place a puppy pad to soak up the urine and then baby wipe her to get any left on her, this would prevent any additional fear from the baths, then keep her next to you and continue with hand feeding? 

I would also recommend holding her in your arms or in your lap as much as possible during quiet times or watching tv or doing homework. This could lead to you being safe for her.

Good luck, this sounds like a very difficult situation.


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## Waffles (Oct 31, 2011)

jpajinag said:


> I am not sure if this is even the right thing but thought you could give it a try???
> 
> You said she is scared to come out of kennel and pees instantly but the eventually sorta warms up to you but then looses it instantly when she goes back to her kennel so:
> Could you carry her around on a doggie / baby carrier and hand feed / water her then directly outside and back into your arms until she starts to realize that you are always safe and her care giver? She is still pretty small right? Just an idea?
> ...



Hello, Thanks for the tip.

I do not think I can't carry her around, shes nearly 20lbs!
I will try to make her sit on my lap or hold her in my arm as much as possible but I worried that this may just scare her more.

She is kind of looking at me while dragging her body still , but her eyes more widely open than before!!; my husband is very busy lately and she definitely is more afraid of him than me. 

I noticed that she did not pee this time when my son (2years old) passed right next to her while she was sitting under the kitchen table(10mins ago). She just looked at him;did not go on back or pee or gets scared.. Is this because hes very small?


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## jpajinag (Nov 25, 2010)

If she seems to be less fearful of your son maybe you can try having him hand feed her, play with her and encourage her out of her kennel. It may be the beginning of an amazing bond between the two. It is at least a good sign.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

fostermom said:


> If you decide that you won't be getting the price back on this puppy and are willing to let her come here to NC, I will get a transport set up and I will take her and work with her. I will keep her as long as it takes to get her past this and then find someone through our rescue to take her. I promise she will be loved and cared for by not only me, but the final adoptive home she goes to. She will not leave my house before she is no longer submissively peeing. I promise! I also will not make one penny off from her, everything will be done through my rescue (goldenrescuenc.org), that's another promise.
> 
> I want you and her to be happy. That's all.


Thank you so much. I am pleased that you have offered to take this poor pup and work with her. I was hoping that someone would be able to come forward. It really does sound as if she needs a huge amount of experienced input. I hope Waffles does not send her back to the breeder - that would be the worse thing that could happen to her. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she will be able to spend some time with you and that things work out for this poor puppy :crossfing


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Waffles said:


> Yes, I will definitely talked to my husband but she showed a tiny changes about few hours ago and I am not sure if I should give it another try.
> 
> But if it does not work out, I will be happy to.


I really hope it works out! I think she will come along just fine, it just sounds as though she had a very traumatic time at the breeders and she needs time to figure out that you aren't going to harm her.

My offer stands, though the least traumatic thing for her right now is to have a set routine with people she knows. And I do believe that your son is not scaring her because he is much smaller. Plus goldens just seem to know that children are pretty much harmless.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Does your puppy feel more comfortable when your grown dog is around? Maybe you should have him accompany you whenever you take her somewhere to make her feel more secure. A lot of times an older dog can help a puppy learn things that a human might not be able to. I hope this works out for your and your family, but at least you have someone (fostermom) to fall back on. You can definitely trust her.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

How are things going now?


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