# Neuter questions



## Golden Oliver (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi! Oliver is scheduled to be neutered in 2 weeks. He'll be just under 6 months old (25 1/2 weeks). I've been reading back on these boards and see a lot of comments about neutering too early. Mostly from what I've read, the discussions are about the look of the dog -- tall and lanky instead of blocky etc. My concern is for the health of my dog -- whether he's tall and lanky or stocky and blocky doesn't concern me as far as looks go, but how it affects his health does. 

Oliver will be a larger than average golden. He's already just over 50lbs, and still has massive feet and wide front legs. His ribs are easily felt and he's not overweight for his build so far.

There is so much conflicting information - from websites, people I talk to and our vet, that's it's hard to figure out what is right for me and my dog. Did any of you neuter your dog around 6 months and have health problems due to this later?

And when it was time to neuter, did you do any of the extras? Laser, blood work or iv fluids? 

Thanks in advance for any info and personal experience you can share!


----------



## Bentley's Mom (May 19, 2011)

I would definitely do bloodwork. It will give you and your vet a good baseline for his numbers and then if you ever need to test anything in the future you'll know if that is his normal or if the numbers are elevated. Good luck with your decision.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I personally do not believe in neutering before 15 months at the earliest. The issue with bones potentially growing longer than they would is not just about looks, but about torn ACL's and joint issues.

I think this article from Rhonda Hovan, health liason for the Golden Retriever Club of America and a well known breeder and judge, does an excellent job of summarizing:

http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf


----------



## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Joey was neutered a week after he turned 18 months.. I got everything 'extra' for him except the cone because I already had bought one  The one thing I would stress is the blood work. As the vet pointed out it will be good to have a reference incase anything happens to Joey in the future, she has a pannel she can look back too at a time when Joey was at his healthiest.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I am one who doesn't neuter at all. Only if theres a medical problem. The risk of your dog getting testicular cancer is less then 1%. Neutering also doesnt calm them down, stop them from humping, stop them from roaming etc. Thats all a training issue. Here is a link that shows what negative effects can come from neutering a dog

The Negative Aspects of Neutering Your Pet

and the other link I was going to post was already posted above. Neutered dogs also are at higher risk of hemangiosarcoma. If he is fine now, I dont see any reason to neuter him. As long as your a responsible pet owner and don't allow him to roam off leash with no re call, leave him unsurpervised in your yard and do not let him breed I see now issues with keeping him intact. You could also get a procedure called a vasectomy done. Basically they just cut the tubes so he cannot get a female pregnant but keeps the hormones he very well needs for growth and development. 

If you still choose to neuter, I would wait until growth maturity at 18-24 months since he will be a larger Golden.

Yes, I would do the blood work as well.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Why the hurry? I would recommend waiting until the pup is at least 18 months old.


----------



## Golden Oliver (Dec 18, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> As long as your a responsible pet owner and don't allow him to roam off leash with no re call, leave him unsurpervised in your yard and do not let him breed I see now issues with keeping him intact.


 
Oliver does have access to the yard unsupervised. He spends most of his time inside with me, but I don't go outside with him every time he does. He has a doggy door and comes and goes as he pleases. 

I honestly thought I was being the responsible pet owner by having Oliver neutered as soon as he was 6 months old since I've no plan to show him or let him breed. We are in puppy class and will carry on to basic obedience in a few months. I really just want a nice family pet and so far he's really a good dog (other than at puppy class because he's super social, but that's another story!). It was only a couple days ago that someone mentioned to me that I should consider waiting at least another 2 months and that's what has brought me to start wondering if he really is too young.

I called our vet this afternoon with my questions and they assured me this is the right time to have him neutered. But they are also the ones who recommended a certain brand of dog food that I refused to buy since corn was the first ingredient, so I know I need to do my own research and make my own decision. Thanks for posting your comments and the links.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Any vet will suggest neutering at 6 months for money and because many people are not responsible. Many vets dont believe neutering has any negative effects and many times when the neuter causes something negative they just wash it as something else or a "coincidence". Thats my opinion. 

If it were my dog and I believed in neutering I would wait till 2 years. People tend to look at intact male dogs as sex crazed fight starting monsters when some are like that but not all. Is your yard fenced? If so then it shouldnt be to much of a concern as long as your home when hes outside. When I had my Rottie he wasnt neutered and he was out in my fenced yard for an hour at a time but I always peeked in on him. 

I would print off the articles and show them to your vet, if he tells you these scientific articles are bogus I would find another vet if it were me. The risks out weigh the benefits and I am not willing to play God with my animals. 

As long as your not contributing to the over population problem that puppy mills, BYB's and people who let their animals roam are causing then dont feel guilty about keeping in intact if you chose to


----------



## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I used to work at a vet and even just from going to the vet office, they always push for 5/6 months with spaying and neutering.. I even had a customer at the pet store I work at had her male lab fixed at 4 months.........You just have to be strong! Try searching up in the search bar 'neutering questions' and you'll see many threads with helpful info!


----------



## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't think there really is a *right* answer for every dog in every situation. Some people don't believe that we should do things to our pets just to make our lives easier (neuter, crate, etc., etc.). I happen to believe that sometimes we do need to do things that help our dogs fit into our lives better. Does that mean that I believe all dogs should be neutered or neutered by a certain age? Absolutely NOT. BUT some peoples' lifestyles are more suited to a neutered dog.

Do you board or plan to board your dog or take him to daycare? Many boarding and daycare facilities will not allow intact dogs over 6 months of age. 

Do you like or want to take your dog to dog parks? Some parks don't allow intact dogs and even in those parks that do allow intact dogs, many times the intact dog becomes a target for other dogs (often neutered). Does that make it the intact dog's fault? No, but it *is* a fact of life that some dogs are "offended" by intact dogs. And unfortunately, the general public will likely blame the intact dog even though it isn't his fault.

Being intact can pose some management issues. Your fencing MUST be secure. Intact males (or those neutered after maturity) are more likely to mark. Some people don't mind stopping every 10 feet on walks, but some do (marking in the house is a housetraining issue moreso than an intact issue). 

If you choose not to deal with these issues by neutering your dog before maturity, you are NOT a bad person or a poor pet owner. The only concrete thing I see over and over in posts here is that the dog will look more masculine. And really, a lot of that depends on the breeding. I've seen a lot of skinny, pointed headed dogs that are that way simply because they are backyard or puppy mill bred and the "breeder" didn't care what the parent dogs looked like, only that they were the same breed. 

The other risks of neutering before maturity are NOT concrete. There are no diseases that only affect neutered dogs-anything that can happen to a neutered dog can happen to an intact dog. Cancer, cruciate disease, allergies, and on and on. Yes, there may be an association for a slightly higher risk for developing some cancers, but, let's face it, chances are our dogs (being golden retrievers) are going to die of cancer, intact or not. 

One other thing that is seldom brought up in these discussions is that in a study done in Belgium over a 5 year span, spayed or neutered dogs lived almost 2 years longer than intact dogs (http://rawpetdiet.com/images/stories...FullReport.pdf). One can find a study to support just about anything if you look hard enough!

My post sounds mostly pro-neutering. This is simply to provide balance since all the other posts on this thread are pro-waiting. Do I believe that it is wrong to neuter at 6 months? No-millions of dogs have been neutered at 6 months or even younger and have lived happy normal lives (including my oldest dog who is 14 and was neutered at 5 months). Do I believe it is wrong to wait and neuter between 18 and 24 months? No-if you can manage an intact male and your lifestyle allows it, I think this is a great compromise. Do I believe it is wrong to keep a male intact? No-if you can manage him properly and responsibly. I think this is an issue that each owner must carefully weigh and consider. There is no RIGHT answer.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Vets do not recommend neutering at 6 months for the money. In fact, at our practice, the bigger the dog, the more it costs. There are reasons to neuter or not for every person. My boys are neutered and I can't be happier. They are not unsound. They are not overgrown. They cannot procreate.... We neutered a lovely schutzhund dog several years ago. He had gynecomastia and asymmetrical testicles. He was lucky that he didn't have the cancerous sertoli cell tumor, but something more benign. And I agree with IowaGold, how the boys look depends on breeding. My Georgie neutered at 8 months has a very handsome boy face. He happened to have a very masculine daddy.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

It depends on the dog. It has been proven that neutering before growth maturity causes the dog to grow taller and leaner. I believe that, if you dont thats you. Not every dog is effected by neutering but I happen to own one was, again many vets can say its just coincidental so that I am never against neutering. But I always was, he was the first dog I neutered and he is by FAR the most...how do I put it without being rude....hmmm...Well lets just say my intact dogs were way better behaved and they were all trained the same. Never will I neuter again. 

Now, about the marking. As I am curious. My vet told me if I neutered Lincoln he would NEVER mark. Ever. I didnt really care as all my dogs marked, but, he started marking about 6 months after he was neutered and he marks every tree like hes on a mission. So, my question is, why did he start marking? Is it just different for each male? He would never of been neutered but my vet promised me it would cure (yes he said cure) his fear issue. Which only got 90% worse after he was fixed (even though I was working with the same trainer pre and post neuter). I should of researched it more when he was basically cramming the appointment down my throat. But, its done now. 

So thats my question. Also, I have noticed before he was neutered he was fine with intact males. But after he was neutered there are a couple intact males he would do some serious damage to if they ever got off leash and came up to him. Why do some neutered dogs have issues with intact? is it they smell different or something?

I can see how it would cost different as they would weigh less at 6 months then at 2 years so would require less drugs.


----------



## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Marking does depend somewhat on the individual dog. My boy who was neutered at 5 months has never marked in his life. Sometimes with neutered males it is a learned behavior (watching other dogs) and sometimes they just learn to do it. But an intact male is far more likely to want to learn than a neutered male. Neutering an adult intact sometimes will even cause them to lose the instinct to mark, but usually they keep marking.

As far as Lincoln not being an issue with intact males before his neuter and later having some that don't like him could have possibly been a maturity/age issue. I don't know how old he was when he was neutered but it seems like a lot of shepherd type dogs finish maturing mentally after 2 years, so he might have had issues with those dogs intact or not once he reached that stage in his life.

I think it does need to be stressed that the only thing that neutering prevents 100% is reproduction. Many dogs have other changes, but it can not ever be guaranteed to stop or prevent X behavior. I wish someone would find a crystal ball so we could know what the future holds for our dogs if we pick option A vs. option B. Until then, we have to do what we feel is best for our dogs and our families.


----------



## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

My dachshund was neutered before he started marking,he was about 8 months I am estimating. He was a stray. He started marking a few months ago, I think he is just copying the other dogs. My lab mix which was adopted from a kill shelter at 10 months old was already marking when he was neutered and my golden is still intact. The lab mix does both, mark and squat, taking turns, lol. The dachsi does both also. Toby only lifts his leg.
They have never marked inside the house. So, marking can be learned behavior like Iowa Gold was stating.


----------



## Golden Oliver (Dec 18, 2011)

Thank you to everyone for your input. My husband and I have discussed and we've decided to cancel the appointment for now and just wait and see how it goes. 

Thanks again


----------



## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I think thats a good call  Joey started marking around 11 months old but never in the house. We knew we were for sure going to have him neutered I just wanted to wait. Now at 23 months he is not over grown, fat, or anything out of the ordinary!


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

IowaGold said:


> Marking does depend somewhat on the individual dog. My boy who was neutered at 5 months has never marked in his life. Sometimes with neutered males it is a learned behavior (watching other dogs) and sometimes they just learn to do it. But an intact male is far more likely to want to learn than a neutered male. Neutering an adult intact sometimes will even cause them to lose the instinct to mark, but usually they keep marking.
> 
> As far as Lincoln not being an issue with intact males before his neuter and later having some that don't like him could have possibly been a maturity/age issue. I don't know how old he was when he was neutered but it seems like a lot of shepherd type dogs finish maturing mentally after 2 years, so he might have had issues with those dogs intact or not once he reached that stage in his life.
> 
> I think it does need to be stressed that the only thing that neutering prevents 100% is reproduction. Many dogs have other changes, but it can not ever be guaranteed to stop or prevent X behavior. I wish someone would find a crystal ball so we could know what the future holds for our dogs if we pick option A vs. option B. Until then, we have to do what we feel is best for our dogs and our families.


Sometimes I wonder if he is even mentally mature at 4 haha. He was neutered at 11 months, he was neutered *late* because I never had intentions to neuter him to begin with until my vet made promises of the things mentioned above and I was dumb enough to fall for it. A few times I was there before i found another vet I heard him deliver the same speech to other people. But whats done is done. 

Im glad you have decided to wait


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Does that make it the intact dog's fault? No, but it *is* a fact of life that some dogs are "offended" by intact dogs. And unfortunately, the general public will likely blame the intact dog even though it isn't his fault.


Actually, the way I look at it is those other dogs have communication or aggression issues _because _they were neutered. This isn't a reason to avoid neutering your pet, but it does go against everything that is said about neutering pets to prevent aggression. :bowl:



> Being intact can pose some management issues. Your fencing MUST be secure.


About the fencing - it NEEDS to be secure regardless of your dog being intact or not. Neutered/spay dogs break out of their yards all the time.

*** I am in no way one of those people that believe that all pets need to remain intact. As Iowa Gold said, there are management issues that need recognition and care. Some intact dogs can get downright nasty or otherwise develop major nuisance issues (trying to breed with every dog in sight, tracking after females in heat, etc).


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

" He would never of been neutered but my vet promised me it would cure (yes he said cure) his fear issue. Which only got 90% worse after he was fixed (even though I was working with the same trainer pre and post neuter). "

Testosterone is what causes the initial bluster for many dogs. For dogs that have certain types of aggression neutering can lower that first arousal level which then helps. 
For dogs that have fears/ fear aggression by neutering, it may add more fear.
Testosterone can help build confidence and for people with fear aggressive dogs they should/could work with a veternarian behaviorist as that professional would start them on some form of medicine to eleviate their anxiety levels and also set a specialized training protocol to help build the dogs confidence and change the way the dog feels during high anxiety moments.

If you look all over the net this isn't really what is being said over and over. What is being said is neutering solves the problem.  It really depends on the type of aggression the dog has and that isn't out there enough.

I am sorry you had just bad experiences with your vet. There are some really good ones out there. I know you have changed vets from past posts I hope that things continue to improve for you.


----------



## drloripalooza (Jan 7, 2012)

I must say that my neutered Lab is more dog aggressive than my unneutered Golden. I initially kept him intact for his growth plates to close, then decided not to neuter him due to the risk of osteosarcoma and other cancers. (I consider testicular cancer a small risk and relatively easy to treat.) One of my vets, who had just amputated a limb on a Golden, had to admit it was a trade-off. The statistics are in favor of neutered Goldens living very slightly more than intact males, however.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeah, There is one dog on my street my dog has never liked. This dog mauled a puppy breaking its leg. Hes intact, I think this dog should be neutered because the old man who walks it obviously has no control. 

My dog needs a fenced yard, mines not fully fenced so hes watched when hes outside. If he was ever left alone his nose would take him the nearest female in heat and hes neutered...

I was dumb to listen to my vet about this, yes I have since found a new vet but I havent had the chance to see how she pushes neutering or spaying. Guess I will find out when I eventually get my GR pup when I get more money flowing in.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Interesting article/ypothesis on longevity and spaying, from another list. Not sure if the same hypothesis would hold for males. Obviously there is still a lot to learn regarding this subject:

There is another very recent - Nov 2011 - (and also very important) article
by Dr. Waters that I'll copy the abstract for here, since it's not up on the
Rottie website yet; it seeks to answer the question why previous studies
have apparently shown spayed bitches live longer than than intact bitches,
when evidence is now coming out to the contrary. The answer, in a nutshell,
is that these previous studies only looked at whether or not a bitch was
intact at the time of her death, and not what age the bitch was spayed. The
term "dichotomous binning" in the article title refers to this either-or
data categorization methodology. The article subject also follows along and
expands on the "lifetime ovary exposure" theme as did the previous article
in Aging Cell. 

Theriogenology. 2011 Nov;76(8):1496-500. Epub 2011 Aug 10.

Probing the perils of dichotomous binning: how categorizing female dogs as
spayed or intact can misinform our assumptions about the lifelong health
consequences of ovariohysterectomy.

Waters DJ, Kengeri SS, Maras AH, Chiang EC.
SourceDepartment of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, Purdue University, West
Lafayette, Indiana, USA. [email protected]

Abstract
In 2009, we reported findings from the first study evaluating the
relationship between canine longevity and number of years of lifetime ovary
exposure. All previous studies examining gonadal influences on canine
longevity relied upon categorizing females as "intact" or "spayed" based on
gonadal status at the time of death. Our study of Rottweilers generated a
novel result: Keeping ovaries longer was associated with living longer. This
result challenged previous assumptions that spayed females live longer. In
the present investigation, we explored a methodological explanation for the
apparent contradiction between our results and those of others, so we might
better understand the impact that timing of spaying has on longevity. We
hypothesized that naming female dogs as "spayed" or "intact" based upon
gonadal status at time of death - a method we refer to as dichotomous
binning - inadequately represents important biological differences in
lifetime ovary exposure among bitches spayed at different ages. This
hypothesis predicts that a strong relationship between years of lifetime
ovary exposure and longevity in a population could be obscured by
categorizing females as spayed or intact. Herein, we provide support for
this hypothesis by reanalyzing longevity data from 183 female Rottweilers.
In this study population, there was a three-fold increased likelihood of
exceptional longevity (living ≥ 13 yr) associated with the longest
duration of ovary exposure. However, categorizing females in this population
as spayed or intact yielded the spurious, contradictory assertion that
spayed females (presumed to have the least ovary exposure) are more likely
to reach exceptional longevity than those that are intact. Thus, by ignoring
the timing of spaying in each bitch, the inference from these data was
distorted. It follows from this new understanding that dichotomous
binning-naming females as spayed or intact-is inadequate for representing
lifetime ovary exposure, introducing misclassification bias that can
generate misleading assumptions regarding the lifelong health consequences
of ovariohysterectomy.

Copyright C 2011 Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Although it it not linked (as of today) on the Rottie page, you can obtain a
full text of it here:

http://www.gpmcf.org/PDFs/db.pdf


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

Hi everyone,

I've tried to read through all the posts on this subject before adding to it so that I don't flog a dead horse. I do apologize in advance if this has been asked before. 

Based on all the reading I have done, and Rhonda Hovan's article, I was planning to keep my male (Max) intact until he's 12-14 months old. He's my first GR and I want him to have the best chance at being a big boy, and also living longer. 

The problem is, he's started to display very sexual behaviour (he's just turned eight months old). He's always been a little dominant and mounts other dogs during play, but it's never been sexual. 

Last week we were at the park and there was a female (spayed) Rottie there and he suddenly started getting very frisky - licking her ears and then mounting her. When he did this, he got an erection (hope that's the right term - sorry for being so graphic) and started getting very "into" it. We pulled him off, but you can't really reprimand a dog for his instinctual behaviour. 

I took him to the vet and the vet said that displaying "hypersexual" behaviour isn't a good thing, and that he should be neutered soon. I am not very happy about this, but I am also not happy with being the owner of "that dog who always mounts females" at the park  Since we've seen the vet, which was two days ago, he's done that again with another spayed female. 

My question is, is it possible for a dog to be an "early developer". I.e., marking from four months old, displaying hypersexuality at eight months old - or is this normal? He's VERY big - weighs 30.5kg and he's very deep in the chest too. 

Other than the hypersexuality, he's not at all dog-aggressive although I have noticed he has started playing quite rough with other males (rearing up when he plays with other males, and causing other males to snap at him). Not sure if that's considered aggressive? 

I'm really torn about this and any advice would be really welcome


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

My dog is neutered and he STILL displays this behavoir...I know its not a dominance thing with mine because he will actually mount a female and poke around as if hes trying to find "the spot". He mounts other males and that is dominance behavoirs. I have learned to tell the difference between the two with my guy. 

IMO the only thing neutering is good for is to prevent testicular cancer.

Also, the rearing up do you mean like this? 









If so thats normal, mine plays like this with other dogs as they do with him  My dog snaps at some dogs while other dogs snap at him sometimes, its just their way of saying 'Hey I do not tolerate that" or "Enough" and sometimes its all play

I would start correcting the mounting behavoir. Hes in his teenage stage hes going to experiment. If you show him whats okay to do and what is not with training now it shouldnt be a problem later. I have had on intact male I wanted to castrate myself sometimes I swear haha, but with some training he simmered down


----------



## sdain31y (Jul 5, 2010)

The rescues that we worked with required neutering (and spaying) by 6 months for all their adoptive dogs. It was non-negoitable and so not an issue with us.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I can only go on my experience which is way better than some study lol! My Cody was neurtered at 2 years old and my Wyatt at 6 months. I see no difference whatsoever in growth patterns. However I have experienced no humping afterwards.


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> My dog is neutered and he STILL displays this behavoir...I know its not a dominance thing with mine because he will actually mount a female and poke around as if hes trying to find "the spot". He mounts other males and that is dominance behavoirs. I have learned to tell the difference between the two with my guy.
> 
> I would start correcting the mounting behavoir. Hes in his teenage stage hes going to experiment. If you show him whats okay to do and what is not with training now it shouldnt be a problem later. I have had on intact male I wanted to castrate myself sometimes I swear haha, but with some training he simmered down


Yep - that's exactly the type of rearing up they do. Glad that's normal!

So, the correction you are referring to, is that the female mounting or the dominance mounting? 

ITO female mounting, bitches in heat aren't allowed in public areas where dogs are off-leash. So, I am hoping sexual mounting incidents will be few and far between, and that his behaviour is purely teenage boundary-testing. I actually learned today that the dog he got frisky with was a male. An intact male. Bizarre 

ITO dominance mounting, I've noticed that Max humps two specific dogs - a Bernese and a Newfoundland. They're both puppies, and much younger than him, but they're the same height and weight as he is. I'm not sure if Max knows they're younger - but he definitely likes to show them he's boss. 

By the same token, he was playing with a female Pyrenees today and there was only only instance where he mounted her and she very quickly flipped him over and pinned him down. 

I'm wondering if we just need to choose better playmates, so he's more evenly matched - which should cut out the dominance mounting?


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I can only go on my experience which is way better than some study lol! My Cody was neurtered at 2 years old and my Wyatt at 6 months. I see no difference whatsoever in growth patterns. However I have experienced no humping afterwards.


Were either of them humping prior to being neutered?


----------



## mrmooseman (Aug 12, 2011)

JustineG said:


> Were either of them humping prior to being neutered?


 
My golden Moose was humping when he was a few months old. He never had the urge, but it's more of a dominance thing at that age. He isn't fixed right now though, we decided to wait and he hasn't done it since.


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

mrmooseman said:


> My golden Moose was humping when he was a few months old. He never had the urge, but it's more of a dominance thing at that age. He isn't fixed right now though, we decided to wait and he hasn't done it since.


Yeah, Max went through a stage where he humped everything and even had his own "special" pillow. Now he seems to be bored of things, and rather humps other dogs when they're playing. Never a dull moment!

Moose is a great name, btw!


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

If he was humping other males it was likely dominance. Mine was humping before he was neutered and it only got worse after he was neutered. Now, he has issues with some intact males. I think hes jealous of their testicles or something. 

If the other dog is aggressive or highly dominant I can forget about mine playing nice because he can be an a-hole sometimes. 

Neutering him will not stop that behavoir....at all. I could tell you a list of things my vet told me neutering would cure ( that only were made worse) but it would make me look like an idiot for believing it haha

For dominance mounting I let them work it out between the two of them. Unless it gets waaay out of hand I do not interfere. Mine will get nasty if another dog mounts him but I think more so because he has bad hips he doesnt like it for that reason. If he humps and the other dog corrects him for it oh well lol. I dont stop it. I have only seen it get really hairy once and that was when someone let an in heat female loose at the park and mine and another male got into a disagreement about who the female belonged to. I got inbetween before a winner could be declared then told the owner of the in heat female how stupid he was. Once the female was out of the picture the other male and mine played fine the next day. 

Honestly, I am not really careful about correcting mine for mounting in heat females. Partly because hes neutered and partly because im to busy screaming at the owners and telling them how stupid they are for allowing an in heat female to be brought to a dog park or even a park where dogs are not "suppose to be off leash" but are anyway. 

With my intact males I made darn sure they had a solid recall. If a new dog came into the park and I saw it was a female I let the owner know mine was intact and if they said okay shes in heat I would call mine off and leave the park. Didnt want my dog getting blue balled smelling her and not being able to do anything about it haha

I wouldnt choose better play mates. When they get fed up they will let each other know. He just needs to learn what is acceptable and what is not. The only time I interfere is when it gets really hairy or the other dog isnt correcting the behavoir and I go in and pull him off, if he goes back he gets pulled off again and told no. If he does it again he gets leashed and taken home.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JustineG said:


> Were either of them humping prior to being neutered?


 
Yes Cody who was neutered at 2 was notorious about humping. He would hump everything if I allowed him to. I was constantly correcting him. After the neuter he calmed down. Wyatt was snipped at 6 months and we don't have any problem with him at all. Right before his surgery he was starting to show little signs but not now. I don't tolerate it and I don't tolerate another dog humping mine. You can't expect a dog to correct this behavior. The owner needs to redirect.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

If the dogs are running around playing outside and the one humps the other, I let the other dog correct it. Dogs need to learn what behavoir is acceptable and what is not from other dogs to , not just us. Wolves do it in the wild and our domesticated dogs are perfectly capable of doing it to an extend as well. Now obviously if the dog isnt getting the point from the other dog and continues, I step in.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> If the dogs are running around playing outside and the one humps the other, I let the other dog correct it. Dogs need to learn what behavoir is acceptable and what is not from other dogs to , not just us. Wolves do it in the wild and our domesticated dogs are perfectly capable of doing it to an extend as well. Now obviously if the dog isnt getting the point from the other dog and continues, I step in.


At what point do you step in? Sure the other dog will correct it sooner or later, but depending on their demeaner the outcome can be pretty ugly. Why put your dog in that position?


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

The dogs he does this to I know, I know they will correct him without drawing blood the first and second time. 99% of the time he gets it the first time. I have only had to correct him myself a couple times. I normally try to let dogs handle it between themselves. If this were a new dog that I didnt know or he didnt then I am more careful. I know with mine, if another dog humps him I have to tell the owner he will only give one chance, second time it happens it will get ugly. So I give the other owner a chance to correct their dog before I do. I am not sure why mine doesnt tolerate it. I sometimes think its because his hips are bad and it hurts when dogs mount him but I cannot say for sure.


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> At what point do you step in? Sure the other dog will correct it sooner or later, but depending on their demeaner the outcome can be pretty ugly. Why put your dog in that position?


In my situation, Max is still a puppy, and he generally plays with other puppies or young dogs and there's more "pinning down" behaviour than humping. But there is an older dog that he mounts quite often, and the older dog tolerates it to a degree. And when he's had enough he pins Max down and walks away.

I have noticed that Max doesn't mount any and every dog. He tends to do it only to dogs/puppies that he knows very well. So maybe it is just a play thing. Since I posted my initial question, I have noticed that he only mounts other males, they're only males that he knows very well and it's always during play.

Luckily, at the park I go to, the dogs we play with generally well-socialized and the dogs that aren't are always muzzled and kept on leash. Or, they're well trained enough to just avoid other dogs. 

That said, when I feel like it's getting a bit rough - especially when we're playing with younger puppies - I do pull him away for a timeout. But I'm not sure if he understands it's a time-out or if he just resents being pulled away from play. 

Based on all the feedback you've all given me, I'd love to keep him intact, but the doggie daycare I want to take him to requires him to be neutered  Toss-up between keeping him intact and leaving him alone in the day, or neutering him and letting him go to daycare.

Tough call.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I would find another doggie daycare or I would keep him intact and leave him home all day. I know several peoples dogs who stay at home alone 8 hours 5 days a week. 

I wouldnt put my dogs health at risk long term/short term just to satisfy some daycare who really only wants your money . Another option is hire a dog sitter to come toy our house once a day and let him out. Would cost roughly the same as daycare here


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> I would find another doggie daycare or I would keep him intact and leave him home all day. I know several peoples dogs who stay at home alone 8 hours 5 days a week.
> 
> *I wouldnt put my dogs health at risk* long term/short term just to satisfy some daycare who really only wants your money . Another option is hire a dog sitter to come toy our house once a day and let him out. Would cost roughly the same as daycare here


What health risks are you talking about?


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Well stats have shown neutered dogs are more likely to get hemangiosarcoma, bone cancer, UTI's, Prostate cancer, hypothyroidsism. Stats have also shown that neutered dogs do not have growth plates close at the proper time if neutered before growth maturity. These are not things I choose to play around with especially since I own a dog whos issues magically started after he was neutered. I dont fall for the "it was a coincidence" coin vets toss because they refuse to admit sometimes neutering isnt the best option. 

Neutering eliminates the less then 1% chance of your dog getting testicular cancer and eliminates unwanted litters which wouldnt happen if you were responsible and kept your pet from breeding. Responsible owners who choose to keep their pets intact are not the problem, its back yard breeders and puppy mills and the people who allow their dogs to breed and dont care who are the problem. 

The Negative Aspects of Neutering Your Pet

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Hormones play a huge role in any creatures body...dogs, cats, humans, bears etc. Wolves will kill a pack member that has been neutered which is why when attempting to control the wolf population in the wild they do a vasectomy on the male not a full out neuter. This is why you see some neutered dogs get aggressive with unaltered dogs and vice versa. People think neutering and spaying and a cut dry thing and nothing could ever bad could come out of it. Unaltered dogs are not sex crazed maniacs society has made them out to be. My intact males were very sweet, even tempered and calm dogs. 

Neutering also cannot be un done. Its not a decision I take lightly. The population problem isnt MY problem. I never contributed to it and am 99% sure I never will so I am not the one putting those dogs in the shelter to face certain death. So I do not need to have people attempt to make me feel guilty into neutering by saying "Oh the population problems all those poor unfortunate souls that are dying in shelters". I always reply, they werent put there by me. 

Until you FORCE the people who are part of the problem to neuter you will never see a dent in the population issue. Taking a very important part thats needed for function and balance of the hormones away from a dog for "convenience" is not right and should be illegal IMO. 

Yes, there are some dogs who I feel should be neutered, and some owners who I feel shouldnt own dogs period let alone an intact one. But, most of the time sex crazed, misbehaving intact male dogs are the result of a human being who has NO idea how to train a dog and never bothered. If neutering and spaying was exactly what it was cut out to be, humans would be in line to be spayed/neutered as well. 

That is MY opinion anyway. I dont care if others neuter or spay their own dogs. I just after my experience choose to keep min intact. Take what you want from my post and throw away the rest it has little bearing on me. I am a very blunt person when it comes to stuff like neutering and vaccines.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JustineG said:


> In my situation, Max is still a puppy, and he generally plays with other puppies or young dogs and there's more "pinning down" behaviour than humping. But there is an older dog that he mounts quite often, and the older dog tolerates it to a degree. And when he's had enough he pins Max down and walks away.
> 
> I have noticed that Max doesn't mount any and every dog. He tends to do it only to dogs/puppies that he knows very well. So maybe it is just a play thing. Since I posted my initial question, I have noticed that he only mounts other males, they're only males that he knows very well and it's always during play.
> 
> ...


You have to decide what's best for your dog and your lifestyle. Also keep in mind alot of boarding facilities will not keep intact dogs either. I personally don't think there are risks and have not experienced the risks named in said studies. Good luck!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Well stats have shown neutered dogs are more likely to get hemangiosarcoma, bone cancer, UTI's, Prostate cancer, hypothyroidsism. Stats have also shown that neutered dogs do not have growth plates close at the proper time if neutered before growth maturity. These are not things I choose to play around with especially since I own a dog whos issues magically started after he was neutered. I dont fall for the "it was a coincidence" coin vets toss because they refuse to admit sometimes neutering isnt the best option.
> 
> Neutering eliminates the less then 1% chance of your dog getting testicular cancer and eliminates unwanted litters which wouldnt happen if you were responsible and kept your pet from breeding. Responsible owners who choose to keep their pets intact are not the problem, its back yard breeders and puppy mills and the people who allow their dogs to breed and dont care who are the problem.
> 
> ...


Wow I'm batting 2 for 2 with my neutered dogs. Must have just gotten lucky Oh wait 3 for 3, I forgot about my childhood dog.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

You believe what you want to believe. Again, removing the hormones in any animal is not healthy regardless of what professionals say. I prefer to not play God with my animals. I work my behind off to make darn sure my intact animals never breed and are well behaved. There is really no way to know if lets say one of your dogs get bone cancer down the road, that neutering contributed to it. You can only guess. You want to believe it didnt thats fine, theres NO way to prove it did or did not. 

Vets and organizations warp peoples minds into believing if they do not neuter they are irresponsible people when thats not true. People make it seem like a dog having testicles is like you growing a second head. Theres nothing wrong with keeping a dogs natural body part and if people dont like seeing it then they should get females. Again, thats my opinion. 

I do not feel a less then 1% risk of a dog getting testicular cancer is enough to grant cutting his balls off. Also, I would never board at a facility that discriminates against an animal for having its natural body parts intact. This is why I have friends look after my animals and if they arent around I just do not go on vacation. I will never base my decision on my pets neuter status solely because my pet wouldnt be welcome somewhere where he may be better off not going . 

Same reason why I do not board because I will not pump my dog full of vaccines which have been proven to cause more harm then good. But thats a topic for another thread.


----------



## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

This thread has been really interesting. I don't mean to hijack, but I want to ask: Lincoln_16 you have brought up some really good points, and I wanted to know what your opinion is on neutering a dog w/ an undescended testicle?

Thanks for all the info posted so far!


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

toliva said:


> This thread has been really interesting. I don't mean to hijack, but I want to ask: Lincoln_16 you have brought up some really good points, and I wanted to know what your opinion is on neutering a dog w/ an undescended testicle?
> 
> Thanks for all the info posted so far!


If its just one testicle that hasnt dropped I would remove that one and keep the one that has dropped right where it is. I would also look into a vasectomy of the remaining testicle to ensure no litters would be sired because it is something they can pass along. If vasectomy wasnt an option I would just leave the remaining testicle and removing the one that hasnt dropped. 

If both were still stuck up there I would neuter if they couldnt be brought down.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> You believe what you want to believe. Again, removing the hormones in any animal is not healthy regardless of what professionals say. I prefer to not play God with my animals. I work my behind off to make darn sure my intact animals never breed and are well behaved. There is really no way to know if lets say one of your dogs get bone cancer down the road, that neutering contributed to it. You can only guess. You want to believe it didnt thats fine, theres NO way to prove it did or did not.
> 
> I will believe what works for me from experience thank you! So are you telling me that intact dogs are immune from cancer? I hope not because that is not true at all. So your theory about cancer can be said for both neutered and intact. You did mention earlier that you let your humping dog work it out with other dogs themselves. IMHO that is not how I would let my dog behave....but that's just me.
> 
> ...


Again your choice. Isn't it great we have them


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

No, I never said intact males are immune to cancer. I just said the chance of your intact male getting testicular cancer was less then 1%. They can still get other cancers, just being intact puts some cancers lower verses a neutered dog. For instance, I read somewhere (I cannot find the link) that neutered dogs are more at risk to develop Hemangiosarcoma. But that doesnt mean intact dog cannot get that form of cancer. 

I know someone, no word of a lie, neutered her dog because she didnt like his testicles. In fact, this person always made snarky comments about my Rottweilers testicles and how "OMGGGG they are sooo GROSS, neuter him". Just because my dogs testicles hung to his knees pretty well doesnt mean I will remove them. I just dont look at them. 

I allow dogs to work out things between them to a certain extent. I am not going to let a blood bath become of something but am not going to correct every single little thing when a growl from another dog is more then enough 90% of the time to tell my dog "Hey, thats not proper manners". The best form of exercise and learning is that from another dog. We are not dogs, we can only teach them so much!

I like to lay on the beach as well which is why I have friends watch my dogs if I must go somewhere. But, my dogs mean so much to me that I rarely go anywhere because of the anxiety I get when I leave them. So, me, I would never trust them in a cage at the boarding facility. Also, this is why I do not do dog parks...boarding facilities are the pretty much the same thing. Cram a whole bunch of dogs into one room and expect every one to get along...its not going to happen. 

I respect your choices to neuter, I do. Your dog and your choice. I can only worry about my own dogs. I gave my opinion on the neutering subject as did you. I hold no hard feelings. Its just an opinion nothing more


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> No, I never said intact males are immune to cancer. I just said the chance of your intact male getting testicular cancer was less then 1%. They can still get other cancers, just being intact puts some cancers lower verses a neutered dog. For instance, I read somewhere (I cannot find the link) that neutered dogs are more at risk to develop Hemangiosarcoma. But that doesnt mean intact dog cannot get that form of cancer.
> 
> I know someone, no word of a lie, neutered her dog because she didnt like his testicles. In fact, this person always made snarky comments about my Rottweilers testicles and how "OMGGGG they are sooo GROSS, neuter him". Just because my dogs testicles hung to his knees pretty well doesnt mean I will remove them. I just dont look at them.
> 
> ...


Not all boarding facilities, vets, friends, dogs are created equal.....I really hate when someone paints with *a broad brush*. My dog is not crammed into a cage with a bunch of dogs and expected to get along them at his boarding facility. My vet has not warped my mind into neutering etc. It's really unfair to paint everything you are against the way you do and then come back and say you respect our decisions JMHO. At least if you are going to bash vets and facilities you might want to put a little more research in them too. Just a thought.


----------



## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> If its just one testicle that hasnt dropped I would remove that one and keep the one that has dropped right where it is. I would also look into a vasectomy of the remaining testicle to ensure no litters would be sired because it is something they can pass along. If vasectomy wasnt an option I would just leave the remaining testicle and removing the one that hasnt dropped.
> 
> If both were still stuck up there I would neuter if they couldnt be brought down.


Thank you, I didn't realize that was an option. Appreciate the advice


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Not all boarding facilities, vets, friends, dogs are created equal.....I really hate when someone paints with *a broad brush*. My dog is not crammed into a cage with a bunch of dogs and expected to get along them at his boarding facility. My vet has not warped my mind into neutering etc. It's really unfair to paint everything you are against the way you do and then come back and say you respect our decisions JMHO. At least if you are going to bash vets and facilities you might want to put a little more research in them too. Just a thought.


In a boarding facility your dog is put into cage. They are let out of said cage to play with other dogs in a room. Thats what the facilities do around here. 

Also, there is no need to be rude to me. I respect you choose to neuter your dogs. They arent my dogs so not my problem. Vets here will warp your mind into believe what they suggest is good. I never said ALL vets are like that. What would you like me to say? "Yes I believe all dogs should be spayed or neutered"??? I dont believe that. If you want to neuter thats fine, I dont see why you have a such a problem with MY opinion. Do I think neutering is wrong? Yes and I believe it to be a form of mutilation like ear cropping and tail docking. But thats me and I am sure some other people on this board agree with me while some others agree with you. I do know vet facilities and boarding facilities are in the business to make money and most of the time their recommendations reflect that. Ofcourse the vet wants you to neuter, it will bring them money in. But, if vets start suggesting you keep your pets intact then every one will. I choose to keep mine intact, as long as my vet respects this and doesnt cram neutering down my throat then I am happy. 



toliva said:


> Thank you, I didn't realize that was an option. Appreciate the advice


Most vets will advise you thats not the best because they tend to push neutering and spaying, so you will have to find one that will do this for you.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I do not regret for one minute that I have neutered dogs. My two wonderful boys were both neutered under one year of age. My Georgie at almost ten still jumps vertically like a cat onto the exam tables. His nephew is equally sound and neutered at about eight months which is about one month younger than George. I do not want to get into any argument with those that oppose, my comment is based solely on my dogs. My two girls that are spayed... Both girls were 7 1/2 years .... One had a mammary tumor which the specialists said was malignant, but wasn 't....


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And I wouldn't have it any other way. I foundq a dog when I was a teen (unneutered Manchester terrier). He would mark even after you walked him and could swear he couldn't pee any more.... Oh yeah, there was always extra!!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And please when it comes to surgical procedures, the professionals are the one to look to....


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

The professionals would recommend I neuter, vaccinate for DHLPP, Lyme and Rabies once a year. Then Giardia and Kennel Cough twice a year. They would have me running blood work every 6 months, would have my dog on some prescription form of Science Diet or the regular Science Diet and would have me doing dentals every year even if they werent needed they would be "recommended" and have me using Revolution year round too. 

So this is why I make my own decisions for my dog. I am not saying all vets are like this but the ones where I live are. Sometimes the vets not the best source of information. Had I not of researched things on my own my dog would likely still have Giardia. Flagyl did nothing for him and my vet said that was what she uses to treat it. So I asked for some Panacur. Giardia was gone and hasnt come back since. Vets can pass on the information they learn in school and if I agree I agree if not oh well. I read updated statistics and studies about neutering/spaying and vaccines and form an opinion based on that. 

I really wish I lived where my one friend does as her vet does vasectomies rather then neuters because he himself believes neutering isnt the best choice unless for a medical reason. My dog would be half dead if I left the decision making up to my vet and my Visa would of blown up. Once again, vets HERE in MY area think about one thing and its money, your pets health is a distant second and I am not the only one who sees that here, many reviews online of various vets says this as well. 

Not one of my intact males have ever marked inside my house...ever. So just because the one dog you found when you were a teenager marked inside doesnt mean all should be labeled as sex crazed marking maniacs. 

While I respect you a Veterinarian I hold different views then you on many things. I may not have the 7 years of schooling to back me, but I have the knowledge from the countless amount of researching I do, studies written by other VETS, personal experiences and suggestions from other people etc. That makes me an informed pet owner and it drives me crazy when vets think we are stupid and should listen to them.

I would also never perform a surgery on a dog, and would obviously bring my dog to the vet to have a surgery done. But if I choose not to have a neuter done then its based on my decision and research and I could care less what any vet has to say about my choice. Vets are not God, they can be wrong to


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Not all boarding facilities, vets, friends, dogs are created equal.....I really hate when someone paints with *a broad brush*. My dog is not crammed into a cage with a bunch of dogs and expected to get along them at his boarding facility. My vet has not warped my mind into neutering etc. It's really unfair to paint everything you are against the way you do and then come back and say you respect our decisions JMHO. At least if you are going to bash vets and facilities you might want to put a little more research in them too. Just a thought.


I just have to add to this that the dog park we go to is absolutely massive. There are three rugby fields, a cricket pitch, about three acres of river/open grass, a mini skateboard park as well as a playground for kids. Dogs are allowed off-leash as long as they are under control. If there are any dog fights, they are definitely not because the dogs are enclosed and forced to be around each other. I would definitely not take Max to one of those pseudo-parks which is a tiny enclosed area. That's just asking for trouble.

And the doggy daycare we want to go to is huge, with open play areas, sandpits, forest walks and a stream to swim in. The dogs have playtime and agility sessions, as well as grooming. It's pretty idyllic  Personally, I would never be able to leave Max at a boarding kennel if we went away - he'd be depressed beyond belief. We're planning an overseas trip next year, and we'll flying my boyfriend's mom down from Zimbabwe to look after him. 

Lastly, neutering a dog is relatively inexpensive here (R1000 = CAD$131 or USD$132). Considering the enormous overheads of having a large practice I reckon definitely not the way to go if you're a vet who wants to make a quick buck.


----------



## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

Lincoln_16, I have to be honest in saying your hard push and arguements with all who disagree with you has kept me from posting so far on this issue. I understand you feel like you do, but I also feel like I am being told I am a bad dog owner for neutering my pets. I've worked in rescue for too many years to want to admit, and all it takes is one time a dog gets out by mistake and finds a female for there to be another litter taken to the pound. And even the best of owners can have a dog escape.


----------



## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Thank goodness my vet is open minded and willing to change. At first she recommended that I neuter Bayne at 6 months. I did my research, both here and also went to many links that were provided for both pro and against neutering. I decided to wait to neuter Bayne. I approached my vet on this and she agreed with me, saying that she has read the recent research on breed specific and that it's better to wait with Goldens to allow their hormones to do the work they were meant to do. 

As for the comment that it costs less the younger they are based on size, well, Bayne was 60lbs at 6 months and now at 15 months he's 70 lbs, my vet says he's perfect weight and he's not a small size by any stretch, just very lean and muscular. Yes, he is a handful sometimes and very strong. My vet also said that any behavior he shows will not change based on neutering, like many want to believe. He will not become a mellow dog after neutering, he will not play less, he will become more aggressive .... blah blah blah. It's all based on training and respect... which we are still working on with Bayne. He is a high energy Golden which we need to provide lots of energy burn for him. Trying to train him on a treadmill has been challenging though. I am considering waiting on his neutering for a while yet... maybe this summer or even after he's 2 years of age. 

Oh about the comment of aesthetics, my cats are both neutered and they don't visually look like it. My vet uses a technique that keeps the sacs but removes them internally.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Aislinn said:


> Lincoln_16, I have to be honest in saying your hard push and arguements with all who disagree with you has kept me from posting so far on this issue. I understand you feel like you do, but I also feel like I am being told I am a bad dog owner for neutering my pets. I've worked in rescue for too many years to want to admit, and all it takes is one time a dog gets out by mistake and finds a female for there to be another litter taken to the pound. And even the best of owners can have a dog escape.


I have no issues if you choose to neuter. Nor did I say your irresponsible for neutering or a bad owner. I am only saying what I choose to do for MY dogs . I come across as rude sometimes I think because I have an issue wording things so they come across as rude when thats not the intention. I am also a very straight to the point person, I do not beat around the bush. So that in combination with how I word things and obviously fail at it makes me appear to be an a-hole. Trust me, thats not my intentions. Anyone can have a dog escape I will admit that. But if either one of my dogs EVER had a litter you bet those puppies would be spayed and have vasectomies before going to new homes. But the chances of that ever happening are slim. I have great control over my dogs. I have worked in rescue and there are things I dont like seeing like the one rescue here whines that people dont spay/neuter but she breeds her unpapered un health tested German Shepherd to make money for her "rescue". I no longer volunteer for this "rescue". It more so bothers me when people neuter before growth plates are closed. Thats mostly what I am against. But for MY dogs I prefer to keep them intact, thats just me. 



Deb_Bayne said:


> Thank goodness my vet is open minded and willing to change. At first she recommended that I neuter Bayne at 6 months. I did my research, both here and also went to many links that were provided for both pro and against neutering. I decided to wait to neuter Bayne. I approached my vet on this and she agreed with me, saying that she has read the recent research on breed specific and that it's better to wait with Goldens to allow their hormones to do the work they were meant to do.
> 
> As for the comment that it costs less the younger they are based on size, well, Bayne was 60lbs at 6 months and now at 15 months he's 70 lbs, my vet says he's perfect weight and he's not a small size by any stretch, just very lean and muscular. Yes, he is a handful sometimes and very strong. My vet also said that any behavior he shows will not change based on neutering, like many want to believe. He will not become a mellow dog after neutering, he will not play less, he will become more aggressive .... blah blah blah. It's all based on training and respect... which we are still working on with Bayne. He is a high energy Golden which we need to provide lots of energy burn for him. Trying to train him on a treadmill has been challenging though. I am considering waiting on his neutering for a while yet... maybe this summer or even after he's 2 years of age.
> 
> Oh about the comment of aesthetics, my cats are both neutered and they don't visually look like it. My vet uses a technique that keeps the sacs but removes them internally.


My cat is neutered and he doesnt look it either, but then again he has waaay to much fur haha. My vet kept the sacs with my cat to.


----------



## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

Lincoln_16 said:


> I am only saying what I choose to do for MY dogs . It more so bothers me when people neuter before growth plates are closed. Thats mostly what I am against. But for MY dogs I prefer to keep them intact, thats just me.


Thank you, Lincoln, I understand better now. Personally, I think you say it best when you say what I left above in the quote.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

, yes, its more so when before the growth plates are closed. Thats when I get bothered most. But if you choose to neuter after plates have closed go ahead . I just stated my personal preference. 

I have a learning disability and I perceive things a bit differently then "normal" people because I am bipolar as well so that doesnt really help. But I try haha. Should of seen me 4 years ago, I was worse then what I am now. But I am learning some things . 

So really, its not me trying to be rude.


----------



## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

I am of the same feeling. I don't neuter or spay until full growth is finished. That said, when I sell a puppy from one of my own breedings, Papillons, they are required to be spayed or neutered at six months old. The simple reason for this is because people are not always honest. I had one person approach me at a dog show and talk about wanting to show, had excellent vet references with him even. I felt something was off and told him I didn't have anything. Months later I find he had just started a puppy mill. He's still in operation. In the past three weeks two of my dogs passed that were in pet homes, one was fourteen and the other was fifteen.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> *In a boarding facility your dog is put into cage. They are let out of said cage to play with other dogs in a room.* Thats what the facilities do around here.
> 
> Also, there is no need to be rude to me. I respect you choose to neuter your dogs. They arent my dogs so not my problem. Vets here will warp your mind into believe what they suggest is good. I never said ALL vets are like that. What would you like me to say? "Yes I believe all dogs should be spayed or neutered"??? I dont believe that. If you want to neuter thats fine, I dont see why you have a such a problem with MY opinion. Do I think neutering is wrong? Yes and I believe it to be a form of mutilation like ear cropping and tail docking. But thats me and I am sure some other people on this board agree with me while some others agree with you. I do know vet facilities and boarding facilities are in the business to make money and most of the time their recommendations reflect that. Ofcourse the vet wants you to neuter, it will bring them money in. *But, if vets start suggesting you keep your pets intact then every one will.* *I choose to keep mine intact, as long as my vet respects this and doesnt cram neutering down my throat then I am happy. *
> 
> ...


I didn't think I was being rude, actually I thought you were lol! I am here to defend your accusations regarding MOST vets and MOST boarding facilities. Which is not true. Maybe YOUR experience with them but not MOST. See the difference Our boarding facility is a 5 acre horse ranch. Not cages for the dogs and no they don't play in a room And I have never been to a vet that tried to push neutering. I actually asked them about it. And I did decide to nueter my Cody at the age of 2 because he was doing exactly what Sallys mom said. Peeing until he peed no more on our walks. He had to stop and mark everything. No he never did it in the house only on walks. That was one of the reasons, not the sole reason

I have no fight in the neutering argument because I only do what I think is best in my situation. You shouldn't need to defend yourself because you made the choice of not nuetering. That's your choice. However slandering MOST vets and MOST boarding facilities, I do have a problem with: And we all love and care for our dogs or we wouldn't be on here. I do miss my dog while I am on vacation, but I know he is having a blast with all the animals at the horse ranch and not stuck in a cage in a room somewhere


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I didn't think I was being rude, actually I thought you were lol! I am here to defend your accusations regarding MOST vets and MOST boarding facilities. Which is not true. Maybe YOUR experience with them but not MOST. See the difference Our boarding facility is a 5 acre horse ranch. Not cages for the dogs and no they don't play in a room And I have never been to a vet that tried to push neutering. I actually asked them about it. And I did decide to nueter my Cody at the age of 2 because he was doing exactly what Sallys mom said. Peeing until he peed no more on our walks. He had to stop and mark everything. No he never did it in the house only on walks. That was one of the reasons, not the sole reason
> 
> I have no fight in the neutering argument because I only do what I think is best in my situation. You shouldn't need to defend yourself because you made the choice of not nuetering. That's your choice. However slandering MOST vets and MOST boarding facilities, I do have a problem with: And we all love and care for our dogs or we wouldn't be on here. I do miss my dog while I am on vacation, but I know he is having a blast with all the animals at the horse ranch and not stuck in a cage in a room somewhere


You neutered at age 2, growth plates were closed by then. I have no problem with that. Boarding facilities here are not like you describe. Dogs come out of the facilities here loaded with fleas if they arent on flea protection. Then cages are 10 by 15 feet often with a long skinny out door run. 

Any vet here in my area push neutering, if the vets where you are do not then thats great, I wish I was living where you are. My neutered dog pees on every thing outside. Every single tree...doesnt bother me. I have never seen a dog stop marking outside after he was neutered, but I guess theres always a first.


----------



## LucyMoosey (Aug 14, 2010)

Just wanted to add my comments.......I am a vet and yes we neuter animals virtually every day at work but it is very much left to the owner's choice - we can simply advise our clients on the pro's and con's of doing it and not. Yes I'm afraid we do have to charge for the operations because unfortunately we are fundamentally a business - a very caring and compassionate one however. We are not a charity and we have to make a living, we are highly trained professionals who the majority are not out to try to squeeze every penny from our clients. It is the always the very small minority who cause the majority of the problems with our profession. I would never advocate wasting money of blood sampling a young healthy dog twice a year just for 'surveillence', I would never push for prescription diets unless I truly feel they will make a dramatic difference to the dog's quality of life (i.e. renal failure or dogs with allergies to certain foods) and I would never push someone into neutering unless they have fully outweighed the pro's and con's. Every vet knows a successful business depends on good relationships with the clients. Please remember, virtually 99% of us got into this profession (sacrificed a huge part of our teenage yrs to get into Vet School, on our starting wage we are lucky if we can cover our utility bills and give up a huge number of our nights and weekends) to care for and improve the welfare and health of animals. We do the job because we love it - unfortunately there are a select few of the general public who can make it a very difficult job for us. I had three hours sleep last night due to being called out to do a caesarian on a cow - there is nothing more satisfying than bringing new life into the world but believe me if I wanted to make a ton of money there are far easier ways to go out about it with my school grades. 

Slightly off topic I know but I do feel someone needed to explain the veterinary side. 

I will also note - I spayed my own golden retriever at 7mths - I did it because golden retrievers are actually used to advertise in our Veterinary Times for virtually all cancer drugs - mammary tumours were one less thing to worry about by spaying her then. (It has also be proven it has no effect on developing urinary sphincter incompetence now either). She was quiet that night I brought her home but by the next morning you wouldn't have known she had had major surgery the day before. I also vaccinate her without fail every June - we do not reccommend DHPPi L every year - Pi and L must be done every yr, DHP every third. Luckily Rabies is not currently a UK problem and so she isn't vaccinated for that. Kennel cough she is done because like most people, I use kennels when I need to leave my dog - she loves it as she went there as a young pup and is well socialised. (Please note out vaccination for KC last one year, not 6mths) She is wormed 4 times a yr and defleaed only if a flea is seen on her. She is on James Wellbeloved food - simply because I can afford to keep her on it and she was on it as a puppy. She sadly now has to be blood tested twice a year due to developing Idiopathic Epilepsy and being put on Phenobarbitone medication (which has nothing to do with spaying her at 7mths - it is problem of dog inbreeding but that is a whole other subject) - believe me I wouldn't choose to blood sample anyone's dog unneccessarily purely for monetary gains - any vet who does is not a vet worth giving your business too.


----------



## morbidangel (Dec 19, 2011)

*well here in India my vet just said a big no , said let nishka have her first heat cycle den only will he spay her & i go by his word .. he is certainly the best vet in India with over 40 years of experience ..

i even asked him about places were dogs get spayed & nurtured really early , but he said that's not how it should be *


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Again, when I base my decision I read studies. Studies have shown urinary incontinence is an issue with SOME spayed females. 

But, everyone has their own opinions and just because your a vet doesnt mean your opinions are correct and the only ones out there. Spaying/neutering removes important hormones that play a huge role in the functioning of a dogs body..that in itself is more then enough for me to choose to keep my pets intact. If vets here offered vasectomies and partial spays, I would do that to quiet the "Oh my gosh your pet will contribute to the population problem" people. In fact I believe personally that if vets offered the option do do partial spays and vasectomies more people would opt to do that and the population would go down. 

A bunch of students a few years ago conducted a little study. They went to 500 homes about. They found 67% of them didnt spay/neuter because of the cost, they felt if vets cared about the problem of overpopulation they wouldnt charge $600 for a simple neuter. They felt they should at least offer that at a discount for at least low income people. 26% said they do not believe in spaying or neutering and 7% said their animals were already spayed/neutered by either them or the shelters etc


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> *You neutered at age 2, growth plates were closed by then.* I have no problem with that. Boarding facilities here are not like you describe. Dogs come out of the facilities here loaded with fleas if they arent on flea protection. Then cages are 10 by 15 feet often with a long skinny out door run.
> 
> Any vet here in my area push neutering, if the vets where you are do not then thats great, I wish I was living where you are. My neutered dog pees on every thing outside. Every single tree...doesnt bother me. I have never seen a dog stop marking outside after he was neutered, but I guess theres always a first.


Yes I neutered Cody at 2 years, however I neutered Wyatt at 6 months. And in my previous post in this thread I stated that I noticed no difference in growth patterns. And Wyatt doesn't mark nor does he hump which was a huge problem with Cody. So I'm satisfied

I'm sorry your area has horrible boarding facilities and unprofessional vets. We have some of the best where I live in So Cal.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> At what point do you step in? Sure the other dog will correct it sooner or later, but depending on their demeaner the outcome can be pretty ugly. Why put your dog in that position?


I really agree with this. Dogs without fluent social skills can make very poor decisions when left to their own devices.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

We train between 50 and 100 dog/owner teams a week here, and many are keeping dogs intact longer. I have lived with both neutered and intact myself. I think testosterone is a factor and agree with IowaGold's first post. It is easier to handle a neutered male than an intact one, and I think the rush of hormones can sometimes, not always, make a dog who could be a lovely pet into too much dog for certain homes. Proficient, experienced homes or dogs of exceptional temperament may be different, but in general, an intact male is challenging.


----------



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

There is so much debate on the topic, it is always difficult to make a decision. 

The users on here, though, are owners who go above and beyond and are very responsible with their dogs. The same cannot be said for the general public. As a future vet (hopefully), I would definitely recommend waiting to neuter (not sure on spaying as in waiting until the first heat cycle or not). Although, suggesting to clients not to neuter their dogs... that is a different story just because you have no idea how responsible that particular client is (unless they are good friends, of course). I would be hesitant to recommend it just because some owners wouldn't know how to properly handle and house an intact male and be sure that he never gets the chance to impregnate a bitch in heat.


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

Rainheart said:


> There is so much debate on the topic, it is always difficult to make a decision.
> 
> The users on here, though, are owners who go above and beyond and are very responsible with their dogs. The same cannot be said for the general public. As a future vet (hopefully), I would definitely recommend waiting to neuter (not sure on spaying as in waiting until the first heat cycle or not). Although, suggesting to clients not to neuter their dogs... that is a different story just because you have no idea how responsible that particular client is (unless they are good friends, of course). I would be hesitant to recommend it just because some owners wouldn't know how to properly handle and house an intact male and be sure that he never gets the chance to impregnate a bitch in heat.


Just out of interest, how long would you advocate waiting for? 

If, for example, I'd want to wait until he's two so his growth plates have closed and he's physically matured wouldn't it then just be better not to do it at all? The reason I say this is because everyone's told me that GRs mature at about two years old so, if he's been ok up to then, why neuter him after that? To elaborate, if he behaves well up to that point then would he not retain that same behaviour, making it silly to neuter him?

Although Max hasn't given us any issues at all (barring the normal puppy nonsense) he's still very young, so I'm not sure if we have a world of pain ahead of us. Of course, he's never been around a female in heat so I don't know how he'd react in that situation. 

We're considering not heeding the vet's advice and waiting an additional three months until he's at least a year old. It just seems like we've come so far, we may as well wait a little longer.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

*MY* opinion is why neuter at all. But if you choose to neuter then wait till 2. Growth plates in large breeds dont close until 18-24 months and Giant breeds even longer. Even if he at 2 years has some negative behavoirs neuter will do nothing. Most issues revolve around training. Your removing their testicles not their brain after all


----------



## LucyMoosey (Aug 14, 2010)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Again, when I base my decision I read studies. Studies have shown urinary incontinence is an issue with SOME spayed females.
> 
> But, everyone has their own opinions and just because your a vet doesnt mean your opinions are correct and the only ones out there. Spaying/neutering removes important hormones that play a huge role in the functioning of a dogs body..that in itself is more then enough for me to choose to keep my pets intact. If vets here offered vasectomies and partial spays, I would do that to quiet the "Oh my gosh your pet will contribute to the population problem" people. In fact I believe personally that if vets offered the option do do partial spays and vasectomies more people would opt to do that and the population would go down.
> 
> A bunch of students a few years ago conducted a little study. They went to 500 homes about. They found 67% of them didnt spay/neuter because of the cost, they felt if vets cared about the problem of overpopulation they wouldnt charge $600 for a simple neuter. They felt they should at least offer that at a discount for at least low income people. 26% said they do not believe in spaying or neutering and 7% said their animals were already spayed/neutered by either them or the shelters etc


Urinary incontinence due to sphincter mechanism incontinence has no baring on whether the dog has been spayed or not - it is a problem of older bitches regardless of whether they have their ovaries and uterus or not. 

I did not say or assume that because I am a vet I must be correct regarding all issues - we are only human and do make mistakes, however I see dogs and cats of all ages and breeds every day of my working week - that is why I can advise owners for or against spaying/castrating - as I said above we simply tell the owners the pros and cons and let them make an informed decision. We cannot force anyone to do anything. I was just using the example of my own dog so people can understand that we are not telling everyone to neuter their own dog for monetary gains, that there are reasons for and against and it is very much an individual decision. I have seen far too many pyometras and mammary gland tumours so the decision to spay my dog was a very easy one. I do agree with the above posters that 'some' intact males can make very difficult pets - I see it all too often. So that must be taken into consideration as the dog develops and their temperament becomes more known to the owner and whether or not it is something they can handle/train. (However it should also be bare in mind that castrating does not always calm a dog down). I would also agree that most folk on here would go above and beyond to look after and care for their pets - unfortunately there are some in this world who don't which is leading to the huge stray dog and cat problem.

Here in the UK there are some wonderful charities who are helping those on low income to get their dogs and cats reduced veterinary fees and assistance with neutering if they so wish. However, I would like to point out, I honestly feel pets are a luxury and before getting people must seriously consider the fulls costs they are likely to incure. I appreciate that circumstances change and that is what the charities should be there for to assist those people. I cannot comment on the cost of a bitch spay in your area, only where I work and we charge £150-£180, depending on the size of the dog - it is major intra-abdominal surgery and should never be under-estimated. It is not a quick procedure in bitches AT ALL - this is why I NEVER force anyone into spaying their dogs and why we charge what we do. (Please note - the operation is much simpler and carries less risk if done at a young age before too much intra-abdominal fat has developed).


----------



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

JustineG said:


> Just out of interest, how long would you advocate waiting for?
> 
> If, for example, I'd want to wait until he's two so his growth plates have closed and he's physically matured wouldn't it then just be better not to do it at all? The reason I say this is because everyone's told me that GRs mature at about two years old so, if he's been ok up to then, why neuter him after that? To elaborate, if he behaves well up to that point then would he not retain that same behaviour, making it silly to neuter him?
> 
> ...


I think I still need to do some research to come to a conclusion on that and talk to other vets during vet school when I go and see what they say. It can also depend on the owner and the breed of dog, too. Some breeds may not be so laid back while still intact as goldens are. I will say wait at least a year (if possible).

Beamer was neutered at 9 1/2 months; the contract with my breeder stated he had to be neutered before 1 year of age. I neutered him while on winter break, so it worked out well for me. Not saying I will neuter my next one this early, but it worked all well in the end.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

LucyMoosey said:


> Urinary incontinence due to sphincter mechanism incontinence has no baring on whether the dog has been spayed or not - it is a problem of older bitches regardless of whether they have their ovaries and uterus or not.
> 
> I did not say or assume that because I am a vet I must be correct regarding all issues - we are only human and do make mistakes, however I see dogs and cats of all ages and breeds every day of my working week - that is why I can advise owners for or against spaying/castrating - as I said above we simply tell the owners the pros and cons and let them make an informed decision. We cannot force anyone to do anything. I was just using the example of my own dog so people can understand that we are not telling everyone to neuter their own dog for monetary gains, that there are reasons for and against and it is very much an individual decision. I have seen far too many pyometras and mammary gland tumours so the decision to spay my dog was a very easy one. I do agree with the above posters that 'some' intact males can make very difficult pets - I see it all too often. So that must be taken into consideration as the dog develops and their temperament becomes more known to the owner and whether or not it is something they can handle/train. (However it should also be bare in mind that castrating does not always calm a dog down). I would also agree that most folk on here would go above and beyond to look after and care for their pets - unfortunately there are some in this world who don't which is leading to the huge stray dog and cat problem.
> 
> Here in the UK there are some wonderful charities who are helping those on low income to get their dogs and cats reduced veterinary fees and assistance with neutering if they so wish. However, I would like to point out, I honestly feel pets are a luxury and before getting people must seriously consider the fulls costs they are likely to incure. I appreciate that circumstances change and that is what the charities should be there for to assist those people. I cannot comment on the cost of a bitch spay in your area, only where I work and we charge £150-£180, depending on the size of the dog - it is major intra-abdominal surgery and should never be under-estimated. It is not a quick procedure in bitches AT ALL - this is why I NEVER force anyone into spaying their dogs and why we charge what we do. (Please note - the operation is much simpler and carries less risk if done at a young age before too much intra-abdominal fat has developed).


Not one vet informed me of the cons of neutering. They just told me "There are all pros for neutering but not one down side". They failed to inform me the risk of your dog getting testicular cancer is less then 1%. That neutered dogs have more risk of hypothyroidism because of the lack of hormones, failed to tell me that his humping of peoples legs wouldnt stop and that was a training issue. I went ahead with it and then went on reading when his neutering got waaaay worse and he started to have all these health problems. This is when I found out all the cons to neutering and made the educated decision to leave my pets intact from now one. I am talking about males btw, I dont like females and therefore do not own them (except the one I have now was inherited once shes gone no more)


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My opinion is that unless you are going to show/breed the dog, have him neutered at 7-9 months unless he has an exemplary disposition and is an extremely good fit for you and your family.


----------



## Casey and Samson's Mom (Sep 24, 2011)

I waited with both of my boys until 18 months on the advice of their breeders. The logic is that the sex hormones released during this period help to regulate bone growth and may help to reduce injuries related to disproportion later in life, especially if you intend to do activities such as agility, obedience, flyball etc. with your dog. I don't really think that they were any more rambuncious than they would have been neutered earlier. They were puppies, with puppy energy. You do need to be careful and responsible. My vet was great about my decision, especially with my younger dog, as she knew I'd done the same thing with Casey. With Samson it needed to be done for his health, as he had one retained testicle, which can cause trouble later if not removed. Good luck with your decision, and it is your decision!


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> My opinion is that unless you are going to show/breed the dog, have him neutered at 7-9 months unless he has an exemplary disposition and is an extremely good fit for you and your family.


Why specifically 7-9 months?


----------



## JustineG (Sep 11, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> My opinion is that unless you are going to show/breed the dog, have him neutered at 7-9 months unless he has an exemplary disposition and is an extremely good fit for you and your family.


Is it safe to gauge your dog's potential adult disposition at 7-9 months? 

I find that Max is becoming a lovely, amenable boy and responds very well to his training. He's not an angel by any stretch of the imagination but I find him quite easy to handle. 

If he stayed like this, I'd be super-happy, but at the same time I am waiting for him to completely flip out and turn into a demon dog


----------



## mears (Sep 29, 2011)

This has been a very interesting read so far. I would like to ask a question or two. What are the challenges of being with an intact male? Are they simply the dog marks when out of the house on a walk? or is it they become more aggressive if left intact? 

From my experience i have had one female dog who was spayed due to some problem with her ovaries (i am only 24 for both the dogs have been family pets) and an intact male, they did not overlap in the time i had them.

The intact male did mark when out walking but it didnt and still doesnt bother me. He was also never aggressive and didnt try and find a female or escape the garden (was well fenced though). I can only remember him humping anything, (pillow, leg, other dog etc) 3 times and those were all when he was around 1-2years old after that i am guessing he mellowed out or i just had an asexual dog, lol. 

My grandparents have a dog which they got neutered when he was 18 months old and has become more aggressive since he had it done, but i think its more in a jealous way to other intact dogs, like he knows they have something he doesnt! 

For me i realize that my experiences don't mean much compared to scientific studies just as i think anyones experiences dont mean much when compared to a big study involving hundreds/thousands of dogs. 

I am of the opinion that my dogs should be left intact - might be due to me being a guy and the thought of someone wanting to do the same to me to make me more 'mellow' is terrible. But i just want to do whats best for my dog ultimately. To me it seems obvious there are going to be biological changes when the testes are removed from a dog, just as there would be if that was done to a person. I know a dog and human are not the same species but the hormone is the same and fulfills the same function. 

My question is, i understand leaving the dog til he is 2 years old to reach full physical maturity and i agree with that. but why then neuter? if you have lived with a intact dog that long what makes you want to change your dog?

i understand the health risks associated with testicular cancer but as for the rest of the health issues a dog can get it seems some neutered dogs can have a higher risk of problems than intact. i know some people on here say well i have three dogs and none of them have the problems posted and so i dont believe the studies (or that is how the posts came across to me) but its not your dog will 100% get a certain health problem from being neutered, just there is an elevated risk, this is what this thread and reading the articles posted and searching for published literature has lead me to believe.

I am not having a go at anyone who neuters there dogs after the age of full maturity im just curious as to why, along with my other questions.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Mears - the main thing is that there is a lot of responsibility that goes with keeping a dog intact. There was another thread here on GRF where I got pretty ticked off about somebody who would let their intact dog wander freely, using the excuse that they live out in the country and have a lot of acreage. 

I've heard horror stories about intact dogs jumping fences or digging under to get out at a female in heat. And they will go a long way to find that female. 

I really would hope that people who keep their dogs intact are making sure their dogs get the training they need and are not allowed any chance to go breeding. That even includes letting the dogs hang out in a fenced in yard while the owner isn't home or keeping tabs on the dogs. And dog parks are a no. So forth.

I DO think that neutered dogs may have more hormonal issues of their own. Or it sounds like it's pretty common for them to develop dog aggression issues around intact dogs. I'm sure there are other factors going on - including possibilities that some dogs were neutered BECAUSE they had aggression issues. Personally speaking, I think a lot of it is a communication issue. Or they are less interested in the intrusive checks that intact dogs do. 

@health - one of our old guys had to have an emergency neutering later on in life. He had a benign tumor on the sack part that ruptured. He lost a lot of blood and because of his age the surgery was a high risk thingy. He was ten at the time. At the time we were concerned about it be testicular cancer, however it wasn't. It was a very expensive ordeal though. 

If you are keeping your dogs intact, you need to really be working with a vet to ensure there are no changes other than what can be explained by old age. 

They also need yearly prostate checks when they get up in age...


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

mears said:


> My question is, i understand leaving the dog til he is 2 years old to reach full physical maturity and i agree with that. but why then neuter? if you have lived with a intact dog that long what makes you want to change your dog?
> 
> i understand the health risks associated with testicular cancer but as for the rest of the health issues a dog can get it seems some neutered dogs can have a higher risk of problems than intact. i know some people on here say well i have three dogs and none of them have the problems posted and so i dont believe the studies (or that is how the posts came across to me) but its not your dog will 100% get a certain health problem from being neutered, just there is an elevated risk, this is what this thread and reading the articles posted and searching for published literature has lead me to believe.
> 
> I am not having a go at anyone who neuters there dogs after the age of full maturity im just curious as to why, along with my other questions.


Thats my thought exactly, why neuter if they are not having problems at 2 years. I am a female owner, and I prefer to keep mine intact. So believe it or not its just not male owners who have an issue with it. Just yesterday, I was a couple ladies were walking obvious intact older male dogs. I asked why they didnt neuter them and the answer I got was "Why should we? Hormones are a natural part of a dogs body and we do not feel the need to disrupt that for what ifs that may never happen". Told them I agreed 100% with them. 

The risk of testicular cancer is less then 1%, not meerly a risk IMO. The dog I have IMO has issues from being neutered and I do not really care what other people say and what excuses they can form to try to make me believe it was purely coincidental but only I know my dog. I believe if he was left intact I wouldnt be having 90% of the issues I am today. 

This is just my belief. I am a responsible pet owner and I have proven with a few dogs I am capable of handling, owning and training an intact male dog. Never once had an accidental litter. My dogs are trained from day 1 and are taught manners etc. Lincoln was coming along perfectly, until he was neutered...

I respect others when they choose to neuter, I believe it to be mutilation but I am not going to fault someone for it. Their dog, their problem. As long as I am happy with mine and how he is testicles or not, thats all that matters to me.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> The risk of testicular cancer is less then 1%


That's my feeling too, however I should mention that the type of benign tumor that ruptured on the one dog? Our other golden had the same tumor show up on the sack part, around the same age as the other dog. Our vet was aware of it and we were prepared to have everything removed if any changes happen. 

It may be different for other breeds, but golden retrievers get tumors all over. Even though they are benign or noncancerous, they still can cause problems when they rupture. 

I know that risk. And as the owner of an intact golden, I do take that risk VERY seriously and have an emergency plan in case anything happens.


----------



## mears (Sep 29, 2011)

To me those seem to be issues relating to the owner not the dog themselves. Its almost just the dog is an inconvenience and so we will remove his testicles. I think a dog owner should make sure the garden is fenced etc and i would never get a dog if my garden wasnt secure. 

As for parks where i live in the uk there are no specific dog parks but there are standard childrens parks (maybe that is what everyone is referring to) and i did used to let my dog off his lead when there, but if i saw another dog who i thought was aggressive i would call my dog back and put his collar on. I think its a little hard for me to say as my dog never tried to hump another dog even though he was intact, but as i am vigilant in terms of the safety of my dog when out and about i would like to think i would be careful enough to not let my dog mount a bitch in heat. 

I guess it just comes down to how much time an owner has to train their dog and how willing they are to be vigilant, for some it is not worth the hassle as they see neutering as harmless. 

It is a thought provoking topic and one i will return to many times i am sure before i get my GR.


----------



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Megora said:


> That's my feeling too, however I should mention that the type of benign tumor that ruptured on the one dog? Our other golden had the same tumor show up on the sack part, around the same age as the other dog. Our vet was aware of it and we were prepared to have everything removed if any changes happen.
> 
> It may be different for other breeds, but golden retrievers get tumors all over. Even though they are benign or noncancerous, they still can cause problems when they rupture.
> 
> I know that risk. And as the owner of an intact golden, I do take that risk VERY seriously and have an emergency plan in case anything happens.


My opinion behind that is if lets say that dog was neutered...whos to say he didnt get that tumour lets say on his neck? I dont like how vets say "Oh neutering eliminates testicular cancer" but they fail to tell you the risk of your dog getting it is less then 1%. They fail to inform the owner of the cons to neutering/spaying but have no issues saying the pros then you get an owner like myself who listened to a vet for once (I have never neutered before) and neutered her current dog who now has a host of issues that were caused or directly related to the lack of hormones. Now, I will never neuter again. 

Its like us, we cannot just start taking body parts away to prevent cancer. If I remove my breasts to prevent breast cancer, I could just get lung cancer, colon cancer or even cervical cancer, perhaps we should remove my lungs, cervix and colon as well? Thats just how *I* see things from my perspective.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

You can play the "what if" game whether you neuter or not._ It works both ways._ The best thing is that it is a personal choice. You need to decide what works best for both you and your dog regardless of what other people think. And if anyone has a vet that won't set down and inform you of the pros or cons of any surgery, you need to find another vet.


----------

