# Lazy sits



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

How old is your pup! Sounds like he is still a baby. I am suspect what you are seeing is not "Lazy" sits, but "Puppy" sits....he will outgrow it regardless of what you do or don't do...


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

3goldens2keep said:


> How old is your pup! Sounds like he is still a baby. I am suspect what you are seeing is not "Lazy" sits, but "Puppy" sits....he will outgrow it regardless of what you do or don't do...


He is definitely not a puppy. He is two and a half years old. When we first started this class six weeks ago, there is a lady in there who has had quite a few Goldens and she immediately said clean up his sit quickly. That will cost points. Looks like he is auditioning for an escort service. Lol

Here is me making him sit cleaner — I scootched him in:










Here he is sitting sloppy — usually off to one side — sometimes both relaxed:


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I also noticed when he sits in the training room — they have those rubber mats — he starts sliding wider. I have his paw pads trimmed — just trimmed them yesterday — and he was definitely sliding wider on his rear feet once he was completely sitting.

When he’s coming in with speed to do fronts, he sits tightly.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

For heeling?

If at home, work in a hallway or somewhere you can go up and down next to a wall.

Work on his focal point when he's sitting.

If he's not doing it for recalls - it could be because his focal point is up above (your face). For heeling, depends on you and your dogs... my focal point is still my face, but I reward just above my hip (I'm short). Always reward from the spot you want your dog's nose reaching up to when you halt.

Work sit drills too to speed up the sits + heel starts.

There is an exercise my instructor has us do from time to time which comes from rally, but helps. It's the 1 step sit, 2 steps sit, 3 steps sit, etc all the way up to 6 steps sit. There's an about turn and we go from 6 steps sit, down to 1 step sit. If you work on energy and focus while working on this, it helps speed up the sits + clean up the sits.

Other drill is 1-2-3 scoot sits, heel forward at a brisk pace and treat toss release or send away to a reward. You want to work on getting him up on his toes, alert, and ready to drop his butt down at a moment's notice for his sits - and ready to pop up and continue heeling.

Don't pause too long on the sits.

Move briskly.

Never reward or dwell on a faulty sit.

There are breeds or simply individual dogs with structures which have more problems doing a smart/straight up and down sit. These are typically breeds where they have longer bodies - sight hounds, rough collies, etc. But I do not believe that is your dog's issue.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> For heeling?
> 
> If at home, work in a hallway or somewhere you can go up and down next to a wall.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I will try these drills also. His issues are almost always me. I did one step sits when he was younger, but then it was to get him cool his jets. Lol

You reminded me I can use tennis court fences, but it’s been way too hot at home for that. I’m up in the mountains now and can practice on the courts here.

And it’s usually when he’s in heel position to begin heeling. Once we are moving along briskly, he does better for halts. When we aren’t training and I tell him to sit he’s more lazy about it. If we are treat tossing and then saying front he will sometimes sit a little lazy if I mess up the toss and he’s coming in slower due to a short toss.

Im 5’4” and I point at my jawline and say up here, so that’s where he tilts his head up to and looks at me.

Oh, and I reward from my pant seam line, but maybe a little lower than what you are describing. I will try raising it a bit.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> You reminded me I can use tennis court fences, but it’s been way too hot at home for that. I’m up in the mountains now and can practice on the courts here.



You want a barrier for him so he has to heel straight line and sit straight. Using walls etc.




diane0905 said:


> Oh, and I reward from my pant seam line, but maybe a little lower than what you are describing. I will try raising it a bit.


Ages ago with my Jacks, I had it worked out to be the belt loop of my jeans. If I hooked a thumb in one of those loops when marking a spot I wanted him to keep his focus (after I faded food from hand) and rewarded from there, I always had him reach to that spot. (I'm about 5'2).

Many people I train with have the dogs reach higher than that - especially if they are working on a higher headset. They reward from rib cage almost.

And there's a lot of "keep the dog guessing" with footwork games, stair heeling (heeling diagonally across a room by mixing in left or right turns) , and the halt exercise I mentioned above which mixes up the number of steps you take before halts.

The dogs who are reaching up and up over themselves won't have sit issues. It will come.

*He looks very sweet in the mat sit picture.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> You want a barrier for him so he has to heel straight line and sit straight. Using walls etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The instructor gave me a laminated card of heeling drills yesterday and we will get to work having fun with those. She said to train one at a time and have fun with it.

And thank you! Logan is the sweetest dog. Very loved and full of life. He gets a hiking trip today.


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## Birdi (Nov 15, 2021)

Anna Lee Sanders with Canine Conditioning Coach has a fantastic "sloppy sitters" program (actually all her stuff is great).


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Sloppy sits in an adult may be structure, lack of conditioning, or laziness. You might also be noticing him doing it more this time of year because it's HOT, he has a ton of fur, and he might just feel too hot to put out the effort. Avoid doing formal OB (the only time it really matters) when it's hot or he's tired. Keep the sessions short. Correct and have him fix every sloppy sit. 

When I work on OB heeling, I rarely reward at the halt. I work on different parts of heeling (slow, fast, left turn, right turn, about turn, inside figure 8, outside figure 8, first step and halts) separately. For example, if you are working on "slow", when you are in a slow and you can see his position is perfect, give a reward marker (RM: "Yes," Click, "Nice", or whatever you use) at that instant when his head is up and his body is aligned with your leg. Be ready to deliver the reward (treat, ball, whatever) and have him more forward and up to get it. Do not practice a "slow" by saying heel, doing a slow, then a halt, then rewarding. Same with all the other elements of heeling.

If you do the elements of heeling separately, you won't be asking him to sit very often, but when you do work on sits, only reward for square sits. If he sits sloppy, I wouldn't even let him finish the sit, I'd move forward a few steps and halt, with a slight tug up on the leash as you halt to remind him to sit up. 

All that said, pick your battles. If it's clearly difficult for him to do a square sit, take the point hit and don't obsess over it. I see people all the time fussing with fronts, finishes and sits on dogs that aren't likely to finish a UD, much less go for an OM or OTCH. All they accomplish is making the training more stressful and giving the dog a bad attitude. I fussed over all those things with my last poodle, Alder, when Alder was a young dog and I still thought he could get a UD. Bless his heart, he really tried, but he was a low energy dog, he didn't have very good eyesight, and he couldn't really understand the concept of a straight sit. I finally said, the heck with it, and only asked for the "half-point" sit, in other words, if he was in the 45 degree "cone" in a front or finish (usually a half point off in OB and no points in Rally), it was good enough. Then, he became a fun dog to train. He loved going to trials. There wasn't a RACH yet, then, but he had a blast in Rally.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I have one more suggestion to add to the excellent advice you’ve already received. If you can do so, avoid asking him to remain in a sit while the instructor talks or you wait for your turn. Either put him into a relaxed down (i.e. not formal Sphinx position) or use your release cue so that he can move around within the limits of mannerly on-leash behaviour. Don’t ask him to sit for longer than is comfortable or at times when you can’t give him your full attention.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I also wonder whether conditioning activities such as hill climbing, swimming or running through long grass or brush might help.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GrandmaToGoldens said:


> I have one more suggestion to add to the excellent advice you’ve already received. If you can do so, avoid asking him to remain in a sit while the instructor talks or you wait for your turn. Either put him into a relaxed down (i.e. not formal Sphinx position) or use your release cue so that he can move around within the limits of mannerly on-leash behaviour. Don’t ask him to sit for longer than is comfortable or at times when you can’t give him your full attention.


I always put my guys into a down and either work stays while listening or just let them snooze. I hate to have a dog learn to spazz or daydream on the training floor.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

GrandmaToGoldens said:


> I also wonder whether conditioning activities such as hill climbing, swimming or running through long grass or brush might help.


We are taking field lessons and he often runs free in meadows, swims in our pool, and takes agility in the fall, winter, and spring.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> Sloppy sits in an adult may be structure, lack of conditioning, or laziness. You might also be noticing him doing it more this time of year because it's HOT, he has a ton of fur, and he might just feel too hot to put out the effort. Avoid doing formal OB (the only time it really matters) when it's hot or he's tired. Keep the sessions short. Correct and have him fix every sloppy sit.
> 
> When I work on OB heeling, I rarely reward at the halt. I work on different parts of heeling (slow, fast, left turn, right turn, about turn, inside figure 8, outside figure 8, first step and halts) separately. For example, if you are working on "slow", when you are in a slow and you can see his position is perfect, give a reward marker (RM: "Yes," Click, "Nice", or whatever you use) at that instant when his head is up and his body is aligned with your leg. Be ready to deliver the reward (treat, ball, whatever) and have him more forward and up to get it. Do not practice a "slow" by saying heel, doing a slow, then a halt, then rewarding. Same with all the other elements of heeling.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. The new place we are taking is very encouraging and helping everyone in class with keeping it lighthearted and fun. I will find the heeling drills card in a minute and share it here.

I will be thrilled if we get a CD. 😄 I should know by then in I have any higher aspirations. Lol


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> Do not practice a "slow" by saying heel, doing a slow, then a halt, then.....


Kelly, random question that I've been asking everyone in general in any context of training "slow".... and sits...

One issue I have with both my boys right now is that when I switch to "slow" - my guys anticipate a halt and start butt hovering or even sitting. I have very rapid sits with my dogs and don't want to lose that, but am wanting to clean up "slow" with my baby especially.

Brainstorming with people around here about what I'm doing wrong - have been told that my footwork is at fault. I need to take bigger steps while going slow, which make the change of pace different than halts in heeling (1-1/2 steps halt).

But any other clues as to how to prevent the lead butt on the slow issue - without demotivating fast sits?


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

This is the heeling card. Probably not helpful to some because this is a novice class, but maybe will help new people.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Megora said:


> Kelly, random question that I've been asking everyone in general in any context of training "slow".... and sits...
> 
> One issue I have with both my boys right now is that when I switch to "slow" - my guys anticipate a halt and start butt hovering or even sitting. I have very rapid sits with my dogs and don't want to lose that, but am wanting to clean up "slow" with my baby especially.
> 
> ...


It’s a combination of footwork and shoulder/head cues. On the slow, keep the same stride length but with slower steps. Continue to look at an imaginary point on the ground where you will be in about 8 feet. On the halt, smoothly put your shoulders back and look straight ahead as you take two or three steps to halt.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> It’s a combination of footwork and shoulder/head cues. On the slow, keep the same stride length but with slower steps. Continue to look at an imaginary point on the ground where you will be in about 8 feet. On the halt, smoothly put your shoulders back and look straight ahead as you take two or three steps to halt.


That's what people like Bonnie F have told me - it's lengthen the stride. I typically take small steps regardless (short, short stride and keeping feet under me, etc). I do try leaning (forward or backwards or turning eyes and shoulders for turns etc) as extra info for the dogs, so I think I'm ok there. But it seems it's my dang footwork.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

diane0905 said:


> This is the heeling card. Probably not helpful to some because this is a novice class, but maybe will help new people.
> 
> View attachment 894617
> 
> View attachment 894618


Those are great sets of heeling exercises. Don’t forget to also work on perfecting that very first step, which is where so many Novice handlers get off to a poor start in ring conditions, which sets the dog up right away for failure. 

When you give your heel command, do not simultaneously say “Heel” (or give an arm signal) and take a step. The dog needs a little time to react, especially a big dog. It’s ”Heel”-(half-second pause), Half-step, full step. You also want the dog to keep looking at his heeling focal point (usually your shoulder, elbow, face, or hand). It’s natural for dogs to drop their head as they get up from a sit and begin heeling. Work on rewarding if he keeps his head up for that very first step. 

Even if you only want a CD, getting that first step right, with the dog paying attention, is really important. In the Novice ring, watch how many handlers, fueled by adrenalin, leave their dogs a half step behind on the first step and with the dog’s head down. It’s never good to start off your run with the dog in a lag from the very first step.


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