# Troubleshooting



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, I'm working on basic handling right now and need some advice. I've been sending Scout to a pile of bumpers and gradually extending the distance. She watches me put them out there and I do not mark the pile by throwing a bumper (can't throw that far anymore). The first 2-3 times she goes out nice and straight, finds the pile. But, after that she starts goofing off and going in wide loops and sometimes going in a completely random direction. Or, she'll quite en route and sit. (I do occasionally ask for a sit on the way out and that has been going decently)

How would you address this?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Are you just introducing a pile of bumpers or are you forcing to pile? 

The logical low pressure approach is to simplify, ie shorten up the distance.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

As always...this is not my area of expertise...and my solutions will be different than those who are more serious about it and different than those who use an ecollar.

- Set up a video camera and go do a few repetitions (not enough for her to get silly, we don't want to practice that). 
- Sometimes there is a small amount of looping/speed change much earlier than the on the reps that are actually poor and our training plans need to address that.
- Speed is a great way to straighten up the path. One way with the return would be to start bolting the other direction as soon as she picks up the bumper. And then by only sometimes doing this....it's not too hard to maintain that "come back really fast." 
- Find some way of reinforcing the return. YES getting to go again IS reinforcing for most of our dogs. But... they're at the pile. They know that if they pick it up and bring it back you will take it away...and all that happens before going out again. And that just might not be a high enough value reinforcer in this setting 
- And of course, like said, decreasing distance is an option or decrease the number of bumpers. Or after 1-3, do a short break (walk around, tug, play, etc) and then get back into it for a few more...gradually increase the amount of work between breaks and/or decrease the duration of the breaks. Treat it like any other duration work.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Has this dog been force fetched? If so, what steps? E-collar conditioned? Force to pile? Water forced, etc?

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Has this dog been force fetched? If so, what steps? E-collar conditioned? Force to pile? Water forced, etc?
> 
> EvanG


Yes FF from hold to a line of bumpers and CC to here and sit. Force to pile--hmmm, well I did do a few reps a couple months ago with a nick halfway to the pile (she noticed it, but kept going). Perhaps I should do some more FTP? What are the goals of that anyway? I thought it was to prevent no-gos but my training buddies say it is for momentum? No water force--trying to follow your book that I just got post doing my own FF and CC with the help of friends. I was at the mini-tee working up to the single tee and decided I needed to work on just a back pile and rework our whistle sit. Now I don't want try side pile until I have this fixed since she is veering enough that she would hit a side pile if there was one there.

I have considered doing less reps because I know less is more sometimes--but then I don't feel like it is really addressing the issue. She does fantastic the first few retrieves and should know then where the pile is. :curtain: This dog does like to act silly and pretend she doesn't know things sometimes to try and get out of it, I think.:


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Less reps does not inherently solve the problem but it would prevent the incorrect behavior from occurring, being practiced, and potentially being reinforced.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Per your original question, I’ll try to sort some of this out for you. Let me know if you have any trouble relating to my explanations.


GoldenSail said:


> Ok, I'm working on basic handling right now and need some advice. I've been sending Scout to a pile of bumpers and gradually extending the distance. She watches me put them out there and I do not mark the pile by throwing a bumper (can't throw that far anymore). The first 2-3 times she goes out nice and straight, finds the pile. But, after that she starts goofing off and going in wide loops and sometimes going in a completely random direction. Or, she'll quite en route and sit. (I do occasionally ask for a sit on the way out and that has been going decently)





GoldenSail said:


> How would you address this?


Let’s take a look at individual items.


GoldenSail said:


> Yes FF from hold to a line of bumpers


So that I understand where you are in skill progression, this “line of bumpers”; is that Mini-pile, or just a ladder drill you came up with?


GoldenSail said:


> and CC to here and sit.


Good. That’s very important.


GoldenSail said:


> Force to pile--hmmm, well I did do a few reps a couple months ago with a nick halfway to the pile (she noticed it, but kept going). Perhaps I should do some more FTP?


I think you should study FTP much more thoroughly, as I believe it’s at the very center of your current problem. Insufficient FTP work will not give you the tools to deal with popping en route to the pile, nor will it give the dog adequate momentum to preclude popping. How well do you understand what momentum is, versus style?


GoldenSail said:


> What are the goals of that anyway? I thought it was to prevent no-goes but my training buddies say it is for momentum?


You’re both right. But I’m asking about your understanding of momentum because the two issues are inseparably connected. If a dog has adequate momentum he’s far less apt to no-go or pop. He is also far more apt to go and keep going in the presence of distractions and other factors that commonly break dogs down en route. There are no larger issues for a working retriever than momentum.


GoldenSail said:


> No water force--trying to follow your book that I just got past doing my own FF and CC with the help of friends. I was at the mini-tee working up to the single tee and decided I needed to work on just a back pile and rework our whistle sit.


That’s fine. Water force & Swim-by can wait. They are the skill sets that normally come last in Basics anyway.


GoldenSail said:


> Now I don't want try side pile until I have this fixed since she is veering enough that she would hit a side pile if there was one there.


You’re right about that. The issues you’re having right now need to be resolved before any actual handling enters the picture.


GoldenSail said:


> I have considered doing less reps because I know less is more sometimes--but then I don't feel like it is really addressing the issue. She does fantastic the first few retrieves and should know then where the pile is. This dog does like to act silly and pretend she doesn't know things sometimes to try and get out of it, I think.


The number of repetitions is not an issue, so much as the _results_ of the repetitions you do. The last thing on a dog’s mind should be to break down, become distracted, or in any way fail to finish their route. Forcing produces a degree of reliability unmatched by any other procedures. Do you have any of the DVD’s?

EvanG


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

The line of bumpers I did is as illustrated in your book--the few in a straight line and then the one, two, three, two, one. I did not purchase the DVDs.

I will revisit FTP but I wish I had a better understanding of how much to do and how I will be able to use it in the future. The book just mentions doing it a few times with a low nick every 5 yards, then 10, etc. And if she chooses not to go--am I to walk her out there then?

I would say momentum is the energy of being sucked into the pile, while style is how the dog gets there (fast, happy, slow or sluggish?).


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> The line of bumpers I did is as illustrated in your book--the few in a straight line and then the one, two, three, two, one. I did not purchase the DVDs.


You mean the diamond shaped pile? The word "pile" is a misnomer, as the book notes. It's a group of bumpers that should be close together, but not touching. In early pile work I set the diamond shape for strategic reasons. I strongly suggest getting the SmartFetch DVD, as it will explain and demonstrate these elements you're wondering about. It will show all steps of force fetch, and explain how do deal with refusals.


GoldenSail said:


> I would say momentum is the energy of being sucked into the pile, while style is how the dog gets there (fast, happy, slow or sluggish?).


Directly from the text in Smartwork one:


*Momentum vs. Style*​
Our common goal is to establish the relatively peaceful coexistence of both of these attributes. Before setting out to do that I would like to clear the air regarding my use of these terms.

The definitions of these terms are contained in the “Glossary of Terms” in the back of this book. For the sake of current discourse I am offering them here.

ü *Style*: One of the *Webster’s* dictionary definitions of style is “_showiness_”. This is a term used to describe the speed, spirit, or enthusiasm with which a dog moves (going out and back) during a retrieve.
ü *Momentum*: 1_) the force possessed by a moving body_ 2) _Gain against resistance. _In a retriever, this is a term that describes the force (via frame of mind) that maintains compulsion _from_ the dogs’ point of origin (point of ‘send’, point of cast, etc.).

So that we are clear about this, the salient point here is that these qualities contrast, but can coexist* – SHOULD coexist, *and in my dogs, *must *coexist*. *

Think about it this way: 
*1)* *Style is a quality that is evidenced in a going-to mentality.*
*2)* *Momentum is an attribute produced by a going-from mentality.*

Does that help?

EvanG


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I am an oddball too since I don't use force, and we have not done much pilework, but I do keep a toy in my pocket and will break up any drills with some playing, especially after a nice job. I don't do it to specifically rev her up, but to reward work that is especially good or flashy. I like to see style and enthusiasm both going out and coming in.


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