# Bostick English Goldens Pairing



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

She has no OFA record, here is his:https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2031401
He has no cardiac clearance on OFA and DJDI elbows.. will probably claim injury. But if you look @ his half sibs, on both sire and dam side, there IS an elbow problem genetically. Both have close to 50% elbow fails. 
Even if the bitch came back OFAexcellent with all the bells and whistles, I wouldn't touch it. Pedigree: JRIntCH & JRNatCH Koda Silas Add in all the people involved (check change history) This is one of those 'need to look see who's in it' .. perhaps search the names here.


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> She has no OFA record, here is his:https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2031401
> He has no cardiac clearance on OFA and DJDI elbows.. will probably claim injury. But if you look @ his half sibs, on both sire and dam side, there IS an elbow problem genetically. Both have close to 50% elbow fails.
> Even if the bitch came back OFAexcellent with all the bells and whistles, I wouldn't touch it. Pedigree: JRIntCH & JRNatCH Koda Silas Add in all the people involved (check change history) This is one of those 'need to look see who's in it' .. perhaps search the names here.


 @Prism Goldens this is why I was asking! I like reading yours and @DanaRuns inputs. I can usually relate or agree with it. 

I was already skeptical about the breeder as she’s not showing her dogs and is only using her male for all breedings. I told her I’m looking for a reputable breeder who follows the CoE and shows their dogs but apparently she doesn’t fit the description. When asked why she’s using the same male she said she doesn’t trust outside dogs (temperament) and her dog knows better when her females are in heat. Calls herself a hobby breeder but wants $2,200. 
The price is not outrageous but I’d expect the parents to have titles and for the owner to show them as well as better genetics.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Ksm said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I’ve recently stumbled across the following pairing from Bostick English Goldens in Urbana, OH.
> 
> ...


I notice she also breed 'x breeds" I am sure you can find a better puppy than this and these dogs are not 'english' dogs they are imported from Eastern Europe. Annef


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Anthropomorphing much?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

LoL a bit hypocritical huh? She talks about being mentored by great breeders and she's done no testing, info only K9Data, nothing on OFA and missing heart certs. Also on her site she tries to break down the health issues for goldens but noticably leaves out the heart issues and surprise, her dogs don't even show hearts on the K9Data pages.

😞 SMH


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I happened on this YouTube because a FL breeder sold a puppy boy to a gal whose claim to fame is her sales record on CBD oil, prior to her now position she can breed her boy she bought on limited to her auction offspring bitch.. and THIS woman is THAT woman's "mentor" in doing things no one ethical does.


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

Bostick on their website said:


> Our Guardian program will allow us to expand our dog breeding program with pride and high standards. As a Guardian home, you get a premium lifetime family companion at a fraction of the cost and extra spending cash as our gift to you after each litter!
> 
> How it works:
> 
> ...


So I've had talked to this breeder multiple times. What turned me off originally was that she only breeds to her one stud dog because she thinks that's best, she doesn't compete and she doesn't have OFA. Well I just looked through her website again and it appears she added a 'guardian home' section (quoted above). 
What stands out is that she says she plans on breeding at second heat. As far as I understand it, females can have their first heat before 1y.o. and then every six months (roughly) thereafter. So this would make the dog less than two years old of age and there's no talk of getting all the certifications to adhere to the CoE. If that wasn't enough, she has a whole schedule of how much she'll pay for 5(!) litters in 3 years- so this is basically back-to-back breedings over years. Doesn't this seem wrong? 

The more I look into her the more appalled I get.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I happened on this YouTube because a FL breeder sold a puppy boy to a gal whose claim to fame is her sales record on CBD oil, prior to her now position she can breed her boy she bought on limited to her auction offspring bitch.. and THIS woman is THAT woman's "mentor" in doing things no one ethical does.


Holy I don't know where to even start with that Batman!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Could anybody stand to watch that entire video? Good grief!


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> Anthropomorphing much?


I just want to say thank you prism goldens for 1) proving my point 2) bringing more viewers to my videos 3) for being the prime example of a breeder I want to avoid. You have shown all your true colors. I will advise in the kindest way possible that maybe you should focus more time spending it on your program and with your dogs instead of on social media bashing other breeders. Every breeder has the right to direct their program how they like. We test each dog carefully majority of the time not just once but twice prior to breeding. We choose a to do some things differently but it doesn’t mean that we are wrong it means we are different. Sometimes its hard for people to grasp that their can be more than one way to breed dogs, more than one way to health test, more than one way to record keep, more than one way to raise their puppies, more than one way to treat their pup families, more than one way to do life in general. You are all entitled to your opinion, and you may mock and ridicule me for being different and that is totally okay. But one thing I know, is I love my dogs more than you can imagine, I have researched everything from the depths of the sea and am making sure I am doing it right, I raise all of my dogs and puppies in my home, and they are spoiled and loved beyond measures, I have put my all financially and whole heartedly in my program, I have put my whole heart and sole into creating the best puppies for my families, I stand behind all the puppies I produce and I will always take them back if need be. I will always do everything I possibly can to ensure I am doing things right in my eyes. So we do all the testing yes! Most of the time twice! But we choose what we feel works for our program and that is okay. You do you, and I will do me. I wont judge you, like you do me. I will turn the other cheek and focus on my family and my dogs. Just know, You can mock, hate, shatter my name to the ground but my puppy families, my friends, my followers know whats in my heart, they know what type of breeder I am and what i strive to be. I appreciate all of your concerns about my program, and we will continue to be the best we can be. God bless you all.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Ksm said:


> So I've had talked to this breeder multiple times. What turned me off originally was that she only breeds to her one stud dog because she thinks that's best, she doesn't compete and she doesn't have OFA. Well I just looked through her website again and it appears she added a 'guardian home' section (quoted above).
> What stands out is that she says she plans on breeding at second heat. As far as I understand it, females can have their first heat before 1y.o. and then every six months (roughly) thereafter. So this would make the dog less than two years old of age and there's no talk of getting all the certifications to adhere to the CoE. If that wasn't enough, she has a whole schedule of how much she'll pay for 5(!) litters in 3 years- so this is basically back-to-back breedings over years. Doesn't this seem wrong?
> 
> The more I look into her the more appalled I get.



To clarify, we currently have no one in a guardian home. Secondly AKC did do a study on back to back breeding and as long as the female bounces back 100% then it is much safer and healthier to breed back to back. You can even speak with a reproductive specialist.


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> I will advise in the kindest way possible that maybe you should focus more time spending it on your program and with your dogs instead of on social media bashing other breeders.


Prism is a widely respected breeder and kindly helps families who do not know where to start looking on this page. 



Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Sometimes its hard for people to grasp that their can be more than one way to breed dogs, more than one way to health test[...]


True, but there's only one way to adhere to the CoE of the AKC- which is what we're talking about here. 

P.S. Please stop PM'ing me- it's not getting read.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Holy I don't know where to even start with that Batman!


I am not aware of this at all.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Ksm said:


> Prism is a widely respected breeder and kindly helps families who do not know where to start looking on this page.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually do not find them highly respected. How can you have respect for someoen so cruel?. From what I see with my eyes they are the opposite. Definitely does the opposite of helping, well breeders at least. I only see negativity and public bashing. It is upsetting to see such a hateful golden breeder not have the loving, peaceful personality of the breed they chose. I am sure they are a good breeder, just hoping for a kinder heart toward humans. Life is hard as it is, we need more positive, helpful, loving people in this world. What you guys do on here to talk about other breeders that aren’t up to your standards is sad. I would never want to be in your shoes. I private messaged each person because when someone has an issue with you, I was taught to make it right and aplogize even if you don't feel you are wrong. I had hoped we could all be adults but I guess not by all your responses. But I did my part. And at least I can say i tried.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> I actually do not find them highly respected at all from what I have heard. From what I see with my eyes they are the opposite. Definitely does the opposite of helping people. I only see negativity and public bashing. It is upsetting to see such a hateful golden breeder not have the loving, peaceful personality of the breed they chose. I am sure they are a good breeder, just hoping for a kinder heart toward humans. Life is hard as it is, we need more positive, helpful, loving people in this world. What you guys do on here to talk about other breeders that aren’t up to your standards is sad. I would never want to be in your shoes.


First there’s no need for you to DM me insinuating i “have hatred toward you”. I do not know you. I have never looked at or even considered buying a puppy from you. I made one comment on a video that as a knowledgeable Golden owner I couldn’t stand to finish watching.
Second Prism is one of the most caring and dedicated Golden breeders I’ve ever come in contact with. I don’t own one of her dogs either. She stepped up and went above and beyond for me and one of my Goldens that had a rare health issue as a puppy. I found her knowledge of the breed impressive and her willingness to help was so appreciated.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

To anyone that views this page this comment is for you! We love our goldens and what we do. We strive to breed the best conformations, we do show our goldens as much as time allows having 4 children, and do all appropriate health testings. Each dog gets their heart, eyes, hips, elbows, and genetics all done a minimum of once if not twice. We have a wonderful holistic program, we have done so much research to ensure we are breeding quality goldens and to ensure that we are raising them healthy. We love what we do, our children love what we do. We love all our puppy families and we have the best relationship with all of them. We ensure they have the best start with all the time we have put into their puppy pack, raising their puppies, and ensuring we are giving them the best start in life. We are their for our families for a lifetime, and we will accept any puppy or adult back if need be. We are always here for anyone that needs help, we have pure hearts and pure intentions. We put our all in our program. If you know me, you know this. If you dont and want to join in the bashing then it is what it is. But know you are bashing a good person and a good breeder with a good heart. I would do anything for anybody. We want everyone to be successful, we cherish every moment helping every person we can whether they have one of our puppies or not. We don’t bash other breeders, we dont ridicule them, we try to help them, encourage them, and build them up. We love to help everyone. We will not let this post get us down and the negativity. We wont allow prism goldens to hurt our hearts for going out of their way to post one of our videos to mock. We rise above that and spread love. We will continue to reach new goals and continue to put our all in our program for our customers to have the best family member ever. We will do everything in our power to raise healthy dogs. We appreciate all of you for your concerns, we really do. May God bless you all for trying to help all breeders even if its not in the way I would personally choose. We hope you will check out our page and see the love our family has for what we do. Thanks for reading.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> First there’s no need for you to DM me insinuating i “have hatred toward you”. I do not know you. I have never looked at or even considered buying a puppy from you. I made one comment on a video that as a knowledgeable Golden owner I couldn’t stand to finish watching.
> Second Prism is one of the most caring and dedicated Golden breeders I’ve ever come in contact with. I don’t own one of her dogs either. She stepped up and went above and beyond for me and one of my Goldens that had a rare health issue as a puppy. I found her knowledge of the breed impressive and her willingness to help was so appreciated.


That is wonderful. Glad we don’t have any issues. I am glad Prism was able to help you. So very kind.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> She has no OFA record, here is his:https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2031401
> He has no cardiac clearance on OFA and DJDI elbows.. will probably claim injury. But if you look @ his half sibs, on both sire and dam side, there IS an elbow problem genetically. Both have close to 50% elbow fails.
> Even if the bitch came back OFAexcellent with all the bells and whistles, I wouldn't touch it. Pedigree: JRIntCH & JRNatCH Koda Silas Add in all the people involved (check change history) This is one of those 'need to look see who's in it' .. perhaps search the names here.


This was incorrect information. Koda has 1 elbow with minor change. I have had his hips and elbows done twice! Yes it was due to impact injury and no you cant even tell because he has absolutely no pain or discomfort. however the 50% elbow fails is incorrect. He has one half sister that has elbow dysplasia and when I followed it back it was from the dads side (of the half sister). When I looked at all the litters from Kodas parents, i believe they had 3 litters and no one else had reported any elbow issues. So please dont make false claims.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Ksm said:


> @Prism Goldens this is why I was asking! I like reading yours and @DanaRuns inputs. I can usually relate or agree with it.
> 
> I was already skeptical about the breeder as she’s not showing her dogs and is only using her male for all breedings. I told her I’m looking for a reputable breeder who follows the CoE and shows their dogs but apparently she doesn’t fit the description. When asked why she’s using the same male she said she doesn’t trust outside dogs (temperament) and her dog knows better when her females are in heat. Calls herself a hobby breeder but wants $2,200.
> The price is not outrageous but I’d expect the parents to have titles and for the owner to show them as well as better genetics.


We had shown them ourselves. We try to show as much as time allows. I dont know where you got that we dont show. And you did not repeat everything I responded to you which makes this misleading.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> This was incorrect information. Koda has 1 elbow with minor change. I have had his hips and elbows done twice! Yes it was due to impact injury and no you cant even tell because he has absolutely no pain or discomfort. however the 50% elbow fails is incorrect. He has one half sister that has elbow dysplasia and when I followed it back it was from the dads side (of the half sister). When I looked at all the litters from Kodas parents, i believe they had 3 litters and no one else had reported any elbow issues. So please dont make false claims.


I have a male with 1 bad elbow. He is hunt trained and actively hunted for 7 years. I was asked to breed him by several people. At age 7 I took him in for OFA hips/elbows. My vet came out and said left elbow may be questionable. I stopped the process. In my opinion there are to many Goldens that could have done the same work he did and still passed elbows at age 7. Why breed a potential problem into a breed we love?

I’m not a breeder. I love the dog I’m referencing. He was pro trained so I have a large investment in him. It was an ethical question. For me it was not acceptable. Ironically the owner of the female was willing to over look it. Could it be that we already had a list for the breeding? 

At age 9 he definitely has a bad left elbow and other health issues no test would have found. Glad I didn’t breed him.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> This was incorrect information. Koda has 1 elbow with minor change. I have had his hips and elbows done twice! Yes it was due to impact injury and no you cant even tell because he has absolutely no pain or discomfort. however the 50% elbow fails is incorrect. He has one half sister that has elbow dysplasia and when I followed it back it was from the dads side (of the half sister). When I looked at all the litters from Kodas parents, i believe they had 3 litters and no one else had reported any elbow issues. So please dont make false claims.


I just looked at Koda's OFA page and it has eyes and hips only. Hips and elbows are done together 99% of time. The lack of elbows indicates a failed elbow rating.

The point of this thread is you are not following the GRCA CoE. So no matter how much love or positivity you talk about, nothing replaces verifiable health clearances on OFA. This database, OFA can not be forged or faked.

Your response to this is proof you either don't know what your doing or don't care. Since you claim to have the hips and elbows done twice and elbows still aren't there, this means Koda FAILED ELBOWS.

Edit:
Stop PMing me. I don't have any hate towards anyone. People come on here to weed out the based breeders or breeders that aren't doing the right things. This is verifiable information. It's facts and if you don't want people exposing your breeding program and ethics, DO THE CLEARANCES PER THE GRCA CoE. It's that simple


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I just looked at Koda's OFA page and it has eyes and hips only. Hips and elbows are done together 99% of time. The lack of elbows indicates a failed elbow rating.
> 
> The point of this thread is you are not following the GRCA CoE. So no matter how much love or positivity you talk about, nothing replaces verifiable health clearances on OFA. This database, OFA can not be forged or faked.
> 
> Your response to this is proof you either don't know what your doing or don't care. Since you claim to have the hips and elbows done twice and elbows still aren't there, this means Koda FAILED ELBOWS.


If you read through the post you would find he had 1 good elbow and 1 with tiny change do to an impact. Nothing genetic.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Since you do not want me to pm you privately. I will encourage you to look at the breeder you have on such a high pedistool prior to judging others. If it were me I would not breed dogs with bad hips or genetic eye issues but I guess some breeders feel its okay? I am sure everyone has their reasoning's. But each breeder decides what they feel is best. So to each their own.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I just looked at Koda's OFA page and it has eyes and hips only. Hips and elbows are done together 99% of time. The lack of elbows indicates a failed elbow rating.
> 
> The point of this thread is you are not following the GRCA CoE. So no matter how much love or positivity you talk about, nothing replaces verifiable health clearances on OFA. This database, OFA can not be forged or faked.
> 
> ...


I have not pmd you again. Just responded on here. But okay that is totally okay.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I don't know you and honestly haven't even visited your site. But I'm pretty confident that the GRCA CoE sets the breeding standards, not Prism or anyone else on the GRF. If you think you have more knowledge than the GRCA and want to make your own standards to breed by... that's your business. 
As a puppy buyer I like to see breeders that compete with their dogs to sort of prove & improve their breeding programs. Many breeders are more about obedience, agility or maybe field work not just conformation in the AKC events. I also like to see genetic testing done on breeding dogs. As a buyer these things are important to me. 
Just me, but don't find your choice to NOT follow the GRCA standard as bashing, just stating the facts as public information reveals them. Don't like what's posted on OFA, change it... want to set your own standard, that's on you.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

puddles everywhere said:


> I don't know you and honestly haven't even visited your site. But I'm pretty confident that the GRCA CoE sets the breeding standards, not Prism or anyone else on the GRF. If you think you have more knowledge than the GRCA and want to make your own standards to breed by... that's your business.
> As a puppy buyer I like to see breeders that compete with their dogs to sort of prove & improve their breeding programs. Many breeders are more about obedience, agility or maybe field work not just conformation in the AKC events. I also like to see genetic testing done on breeding dogs. As a buyer these things are important to me.
> Just me, but don't find your choice to NOT follow the GRCA standard as bashing, just stating the facts as public information reveals them. Don't like what's posted on OFA, change it... want to set your own standard, that's on you.


Thanks! Our dogs are more of family, hang out and cuddle dogs and I don’t work them, its just not my desire to show past conformation. I show conformation to make sure I am breeding a dog of standard and because its a fun hobby.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Family dogs deserve to be as structurally sound... healthy, balanced temperament... and trainable. Following the GRCA standard and competing provides owners the information to know this. Much more reliable than a nice breeder that's trying to sell you a puppy telling you it's true. But then I've had some really great cuddly rescues that were awesome family dogs too. I'm guessing my rescue family dogs were a much cheaper than your pups.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

The point of my video is this. A breeder mentoring other breeders in privacy is awesome! But a breeder that purposely bashes another breeder, calling them out for what they feel is their “flaw” is not going to be affective. Instead of helping, you are hurting. You can encourage breeders to do better in a kind, loving way so that they are more receiving of it. Just like if you were in this position how would you feel? How do all the other breeders feel? They feel attacked, hurt, and humiliated. It is important to be kind to everyone and respect them. With this being said you can let breeders know when you feel they are wrong in a respectful way, and by that I mean privatly not publicly. Unless they really did something wrong and are scamming people, or purposely harming the breed by being careless. Which is not what we do. We are doing what works for our program that I have found beneficial. It may not be by the code you go by, but it works for us. We can establish our own code and who knows maybe we will figure something out that no one else has and create the perfect dog. If no one ever did things different then we would never see a change or improvement in our breed. Just like pennhip for example. Its different but beneficial. Its okay to be different, its also okay to be kind and respectful (;


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> If you read through the post you would find he had 1 good elbow and 1 with tiny change do to an impact. Nothing genetic.


That is not verifiable on OFA. If that is truly the case you should have checked the box to showed a failed grade to be posted and noted the reason... Missing is still failed. Can't take your word for it, or what's the point of OFA? The very very very least you can do is post this info, that he failed due to injury, and post it on his page on your website. Heck, take a pic of the report and post that on Koda's page on your site. BE TRANSPARENT. You only provide this info once people point out it's missing elbows on OFA? It screams trying to cover your butt.

A ton of breeders say a lot of things like fill clearances and they are lies, so unless it's verifiable, it can't be trusted.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> That is not verifiable on OFA. If that is true the case you should have checked the box to showed failed grade to be posted and noted the reason... Missing is still failed. Can't take you word for it, or what's the point of OFA? The very very very least you can do is post this info, that he failed due to injury, and pay it on his page on your website. Heck, take a pic of the report and post that on Koda's page on your sure. BE TRANSPARENT. You only provide this info once people point it missing elbows on OFA? It screams trying to cover you butt.
> 
> A ton of breeders say a lot of things like fill clearances and they are lies, so unless it's verifiable, it can't be trusted.


Idk if your missing it but its on there.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

The Golden Retriever Club of America has a Code of Ethics which breeders must adhere to, to be considered ethical and reputable. Have you read it? Are you a member of the GRCA? The CoE clearly outlines which testing must be done on golden retrievers prior to being bred and which tests are acceptable and which are not. Here is a link in case you haven't read it.... GRCA Code of Ethics - Golden Retriever Club of America


Nobody is pointing out these gaps in your program based on some sort of made-up personal standard. The GRCA Code of Ethics IS that standard, which you don't adhere to, based on your own admissions and based on what can be found on OFA.

BTW this is what comes up on OFA, and as you can see there is no elbow:


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> The point of my video is this. A breeder mentoring other breeders in privacy is awesome! But a breeder that purposely bashes another breeder, calling them out for what they feel is their “flaw” is not going to be affective. Instead of helping, you are hurting. You can encourage breeders to do better in a kind, loving way so that they are more receiving of it. Just like if you were in this position how would you feel? How do all the other breeders feel? They feel attacked, hurt, and humiliated. It is important to be kind to everyone and respect them. With this being said you can let breeders know when you feel they are wrong in a respectful way, and by that I mean privatly not publicly. Unless they really did something wrong and are scamming people, or purposely harming the breed by being careless. Which is not what we do. We are doing what works for our program that I have found beneficial. It may not be by the code you go by, but it works for us. We can establish our own code and who knows maybe we will figure something out that no one else has and create the perfect dog. If no one ever did things different then we would never see a change or improvement in our breed. Just like pennhip for example. Its different but beneficial. Its okay to be different, its also okay to be kind and respectful (;


Mentoring someone else means understanding and accepting the standard set by GRCA and following & teaching those practices. If you are being mentored to follow your own path and just making puppies, you need a better mentor.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Emmdenn said:


> The Golden Retriever Club of America has a Code of Ethics which breeders must adhere to, to be considered ethical and reputable. Have you read it? Are you a member of the GRCA? The CoE clearly outlines which testing must be done on golden retrievers prior to being bred and which tests are acceptable and which are not. Here is a link in case you haven't read it.... GRCA Code of Ethics - Golden Retriever Club of America
> 
> 
> Nobody is pointing out these gaps in your program based on some sort of made-up personal standard. The GRCA Code of Ethics IS that standard, which you don't adhere to, based on your own admissions and based on what can be found on OFA.
> ...


Their used to be elbow though. Which is why prism pointed that out 8 months ago. I have no idea why it disappeared.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

When we mentor we advise everyone to do embark dna test, pennhip, ofa hips, elbows, eyes, heart at 16 weeks and again prior to breeding. This ensures the puppy even qualifies for their program. We have learned the hard way already so this works for us.
You can see on ofa the older the pup gets the more accurate prelims are.


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> We had shown them ourselves. We try to show as much as time allows. I dont know where you got that we dont show. And you did not repeat everything I responded to you which makes this misleading.


"Koda showed in August 2017 and was best of breed puppy for all 4 shows, he won 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in sporting group puppy in 3 shows. And he left as a National and International Junior Champion! "

This comes from your website- so you're saying having shown your dog in 2017 as a puppy. I would expect your dog to have been shown to have adult titles. And what do you mean by as much as time allows? I think we can all agree that we're busy and that showing a dog is a time commitment but dedicated breeders do it- even through a handler sometimes.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I have had failed clearances removed... by the breeder not wanting failed showing. Very unethical breeding in my opinion. If you want it re-posted you need to send OFA a letter requesting it be reposted and have verification you own the dog and have it notarized to be put into the file.
Do you ever compete in AKC events? Much harder to achieve a title than international. If you are short on time, hire a handler... time is a lame excuse.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Thanks! Our dogs are more of family, hang out and cuddle dogs and I don’t work them, its just not my desire to show past conformation. I show conformation to make sure I am breeding a dog of standard and because its a fun hobby.


If you don't do anything with your dogs other then conformation, no hunt, field, agility, how do you justify that a young dog of breeding age sustained an injury to the elbow significant enough to cause them to fail OFA Elbows? I'm sincerely wondering? Are there vet records from the day of said injury? These are questions I would have for any breeder that told me an elbow failure was injury related. I could believe in some highly competitive titled field or agility dogs, but not a conformation dog.

My dog had worked hard in marshes and bays retrieving for guided hunting parties and I still felt that a Golden with proper structure should have been able to pass an elbow test at age 7. 

You can have in your contract that you will take a puppy back if a problem arises but we all know that is a useless clause once a good owner is in love with their dog.


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> But a breeder that purposely bashes another breeder, calling them out for what they feel is their “flaw” is not going to be affective. [...]
> Unless they really did something wrong and are scamming people, or purposely harming the breed by being careless. Which is not what we do. We are doing what works for our program that I have found beneficial. It may not be by the code you go by, but it works for us.


By not adhering to the CoE you ARE hurting the breed. You admitted to breeding a dog with failed elbows. You're not getting a stud for any of your litters. 

All I see is someone scamming people who want a "English Cream" golden- not a great and caring breeder. You're like half a step above BYB- if that.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Ksm said:


> "Koda showed in August 2017 and was best of breed puppy for all 4 shows, he won 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place in sporting group puppy in 3 shows. And he left as a National and International Junior Champion! "
> 
> This comes from your website- so you're saying having shown your dog in 2017 as a puppy. I would expect your dog to have been shown to have adult titles. And what do you mean by as much as time allows? I think we can all agree that we're busy and that showing a dog is a time commitment but dedicated breeders do it- even through a handler sometimes.


Im sorry I mean I am a stay at home homeschooling mom raising 4 children, running a mini farm, taking care of 5 dogs, I am non stop working on something, my work load never ends. I did have time to show Dahlia twice, and Davina I planned to show but covid ruined our plans. Believe it or not I am trying my best, I truly am. But in the end showing is not at the top of my list, raising healthy children and healthy goldens is. But yes, when I get the time, I am there. Not everyone has the luxary of just leaving for a weekend or more to show. I have my priorities and my family and dogs happiness comes first. Crucify me for it if you please.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Ksm said:


> By not adhering to the CoE you ARE hurting the breed. You admitted to breeding a dog with failed elbows. You're not getting a stud for any of your litters.
> 
> All I see is someone scamming people who want a "English Cream" golden- not a great and caring breeder. You're like half a step above BYB- if that.


Thanks for your honest opinion. We will take all opinions into consideration respectfully.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Have you ever read the breed standard? 1st and foremost it's a hunting dog and should be able to do the job. 
You clearly have no desire to breed your dogs according to the standard set by the breed group. Teaching other people to ignore the GRCA practices is disturbing and certainly doesn't improve or preserve the breed. If I'm going to pay the bucks I'm sure you are asking, this is not the place to purchase a puppy. I can get family dogs at the rescue.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> If you don't do anything with your dogs other then conformation, no hunt, field, agility, how do you justify that a young dog of breeding age sustained an injury to the elbow significant enough to cause them to fail OFA Elbows? I'm sincerely wondering? Are there vet records from the day of said injury? These are questions I would have for any breeder that told me an elbow failure was injury related. I could believe in some highly competitive titled field or agility dogs, but not a conformation dog.
> 
> My dog had worked hard in marshes and bays retrieving for guided hunting parties and I still felt that a Golden with proper structure should have been able to pass an elbow test at age 7.
> 
> You can have in your contract that you will take a puppy back if a problem arises but we all know that is a useless clause once a good owner is in love with their dog.


Yes but its aways an offer. Life happens, homes burn down, people loose jobs, things do happen so its a nice thing to offer. We do have vet records he did get stitches that day.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

puddles everywhere said:


> Have you ever read the breed standard? 1st and foremost it's a hunting dog and should be able to do the job.
> You clearly have no desire to breed your dogs according to the standard set by the breed group. Teaching other people to ignore the GRCA practices is disturbing and certainly doesn't improve or preserve the breed. If I'm going to pay the bucks I'm sure you are asking, this is not the place to purchase a puppy. I can get family dogs at the rescue.


Thanks for your opinion. Not everyone wants an active hunting dog. We prefer calm well tempered family dogs. But to each their own.


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> When we mentor we advise everyone to do embark dna test, pennhip, ofa hips, elbows, eyes, heart at 16 weeks and again prior to breeding. This ensures the puppy even qualifies for their program. We have learned the hard way already so this works for us.
> You can see on ofa the older the pup gets the more accurate prelims are.


16 weeks? It's supposed to be at 24 months to not be pre-lims. And you definitely shouldn't be breeding on pre-lims. You're really not convincing anyone here.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Thanks for your opinion. Not everyone wants an active hunting dog. We prefer calm well tempered family dogs. But to each their own.


A golden, any golden, is a sporting dog (hunting dog) by the breed standard. Any golden should be able to retrieve and be trained as a hunting companion IMO.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Ksm said:


> 16 weeks? It's supposed to be at 24 months to not be pre-lims. And you definitely shouldn't be breeding on pre-lims. You're really not convincing anyone here.


Im sorry maybe you did not read it clearly. 16 weeks is the first time we test. Prelims have been shown to be successful to show if a dog is worthy of staying in your program.

*Preliminary Evaluations for Animals Under 24 Months*
Frequently, breeders want early knowledge of the hip status on puppies in a given litter. Preliminary hip evaluations may be as valuable to the owner or breeder as the final OFA evaluation. This allows early selection of dogs for use as show/performance/breeding prospects and dogs best suited for pet homes.
The OFA accepts preliminary consultation radiographs on puppies as young as 4 months of age for evaluation of hip conformation. If the dog is found to be dysplastic at an early age, the economic loss from the cost of training, handling, showing and so forth can be minimized and the emotional loss reduced. These preliminary radiographs are read by the OFA staff veterinary radiologist and are not sent to the outside consulting radiologists. The regular OFA hip grading scheme (excellent, good, fair, etc) is used to report preliminary cases.

A previous OFA veterinary journal publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).



https://www.ofa.org/about/policies/preliminary-evaluations


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> A golden, any golden, is a sporting dog (hunting dog) by the breed standard. Any golden should be able to retrieve and be trained as a hunting companion IMO.


Yes they can. I have some that enjoy retrieving and some that would rather just cuddle. Both great dogs. Showing doesnt make them less or more great (;


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Thank you all for your comments, concerns, opinions, and conversation. I need to get some things done so as much as I would love to chat with you all day about how terrible I am, I really have to get some stuff done real quick. We shall a litle later. god bless


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Im sorry I mean I am a stay at home homeschooling mom raising 4 children, running a mini farm, taking care of 5 dogs, I am non stop working on something, my work load never ends. I did have time to show Dahlia twice, and Davina I planned to show but covid ruined our plans. Believe it or not I am trying my best, I truly am. But in the end showing is not at the top of my list, raising healthy children and healthy goldens is. But yes, when I get the time, I am there. Not everyone has the luxary of just leaving for a weekend or more to show. I have my priorities and my family and dogs happiness comes first. Crucify me for it if you please.


Then if your plate is that full and can't give the right time and commitment to your breeding program, then maybe you shouldn't be breeding. The more I hear what you have to say the more sound like you're breeding for profit to help cover your expenses (maybe for the farm). Why would you be mentored and not have all the clearances and titling your dogs? Either way, this isn't a program I would currently recommend and that seems like it's for bettering the breed or breeding responsibly.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Idk if your missing it but its on there.


Maybe you should check your own dogs OFA page and see why people are saying what they are saying, that certs are missing.

We are only taking elbows here as well. What the heck is the deal with missing eyes Anna heat by cardiologist certs my missing? What's that excuse?


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## OscarsDad (Dec 20, 2017)

Just a reminder to all that is critically important, no matter how intense differences of opinion might be, to keep the tone respectful. Disrespectful communication has never altered thinking. It tends to harden people in their respective positions. Thanks for your consideration.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Then if your plate is that full and can't give the right time and commitment to your breeding program, then maybe you shouldn't be breeding. The more I hear what you have to say the more sound like you're breeding for profit to help cover your expenses (maybe for the farm). Why would you be mentored and not have all the clearances and titling your dogs? Either way, this isn't a program I would currently recommend and that seems like it's for bettering the breed or breeding responsibly.


No problem. For one we are financially sound. We never need more. We don’t need money for our mini farm, my husband works very hard full time. I don’t breed for profit, I am a SMALL HOBBY breeder. I am not a kennel, I am not a high end big show breeder, their are different types of breeders. With all do respect I would never sell you a puppy. Not with your attitude, assumptions, and critical mindset. I didn’t spend $60,000+ in my program already to be a backyard breeder. I am sorry you feel that way. The costs are endless and it comes out of my pocket. I am appalled by your words.

A huge part of my life and what I do that keeps me busy is my dogs, my puppy families, helping people, and of course everything i have listed. With all do respect I do not care what some random joe smo thinks of me. I am doing my program how I feel is beneficial. Maybe worry about all the breeders that don’t health test at all, or breed limited akc or no registration. Man! You would think that I was just the worst person in the world.

Only keep positive uplifting people in your life. If they don’t build you up, and encourage you with kindness to be the best you can be please avoid them. This is the key to happiness.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> No problem. For one we are financially sound. We never need more. We don’t need money for our mini farm, my husband works very hard full time. I don’t breed for profit, I am a SMALL HOBBY breeder. I am not a kennel, I am not a high end big show breeder, their are different types of breeders. With all do respect I would never sell you a puppy. Not with your attitude, assumptions, and critical mindset. I didn’t spend $60,000+ in my program already to be a backyard breeder. I am sorry you feel that way. The costs are endless and it comes out of my pocket. I am appalled by your words.
> 
> A huge part of my life and what I do that keeps me busy is my dogs, my puppy families, helping people, and of course everything i have listed. With all do respect I do not care what some random joe smo thinks of me. I am doing my program how I feel is beneficial. Maybe worry about all the breeders that don’t health test at all, or breed limited akc or no registration. Man! You would think that I was just the worst person in the world. I am going to have to be done. I am sorry. I just can’t take the negativity any longer. Ones heart can handle so much. Only keep positive uplifting people in your life. If they don’t build you up, and encourage you with kindness to be the best you can be please avoid them. This is the key to happiness.


Most members here deeply care about preserving the breed and have pointed out ways you, as a breeder, could improve your program and get more serious about only breeding structurally correct, healthy dogs. Any good breeder should have that goal in mind.

I hope you at least realized that some of the members posting here are extremely successful and respected breeders in the golden community, offering insight into how you could improve (joining the GRCA, only breeding dogs with passing clearances, learning more about conformation and structure, abiding by the CoE).


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

You also sent this to me in that pm I just read, I'm not paying the whole PM, but 1 sentence.

"Sometimes its hard for people to grasp that their can be more than one way to breed dogs, more than one way to health test, more than one way to record keep, more than one way to raise their puppies, more than one way to treat their pup families, more than one way to do life in general.

This is the thought process that can get people into trouble with places like this forum. People here look to that CoE and for truly reputable and ethical breeders, they use OFA for all the health clearances. Per the GRCA CoE, your statement to me above is an impossible statement. There is only one way to do health testing in the USA and only 1 way of record keeping, the OFA database, for truly VERIFIABLE health clearances.

I have 1 question... Is it worth all this back and forth and the risk of people seeing this thread and setting the issues with you breeding program than to just do the 4 core health clearances? I mean if you go to health clinic in your area you're looking at costs... Hips and elbows (24 my months or older) $250-$350, heart by cardiologist (12 months or older) $50 and eyes yearly $50. So a mix of $400 one and $50 yearly for eyes. That's for each parent. It's so easy and overall inexpensive but you said money is not an issue. So why not just do it?


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

OscarsDad said:


> Just a reminder to all that is critically important, no matter how intense differences of opinion might be, to keep the tone respectful. Disrespectful communication has never altered thinking. It tends to harden people in their respective positions. Thanks for your consideration.


Thank you! So true.


Emmdenn said:


> Most members here deeply care about preserving the breed and have pointed out ways you, as a breeder, could improve your program and get more serious about only breeding structurally correct, healthy dogs. Any good breeder should have that goal in mind.
> 
> I hope you at least realized that some of the members posting here are extremely successful and respected breeders in the golden community, offering insight into how you could improve (joining the GRCA, only breeding dogs with passing clearances, learning more about conformation and structure, abiding by the CoE).


Thanks! Your comment was the best most well written respected comment on here. I appreciate you.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

You are a breeder offering puppies to the public and as such you should be prepared for a review of your business, just like any other. It is not bashing or an attack to hold a business to the standards of their industry. If we are talking about contractors, it is not bashing to point out that a contractor being reviewed is not licensed or bonded. Being licensed and bonded is the Standard for that business.

In Goldens we also have a standard you can find a nice short, sweet copt of it here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn-origin...6121656/Golden-Retriever-Health-Statement.pdf













Just looking at your most recent litter shows this clearly. 
The mom only has one verifiable health certification and she can’t have certifications for hips or elbows because she is underage and was bred at 19 months old. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2033272








The dad isn’t much better with only two of the core hearth certifications in place. We know he has dysplasia of the elbows based on your statements so he can’t have a cert for that. He also doesn’t have a heart certification. That means either he is untested, he failed or you have tested and are choosing not to pay the $15 to have it sent in. If the case is you aren‘t spending the $15, there is no way for your puppy buyers to verify if the application for certification is 1.real and 2. done by a Cardiologist as it should instead of a regular practitioner pet vet. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2031401









None of this is my opinion. It is al based on fact with supporting documentation. I took your program and held it up against the standard and your program is not meeting it.

Now for my opinion-
You of course can breed anyway you want. However when you make the choice to breed outside of the health certification standards and people are helping the buyer who is at a huge knowledge deficit, you have to know that these facts will come out. You don’t have to like them and it is clear you don’t. This is why you are receiving less than glowing reviews. It truly is not hard to comply and if you did, you would not have to spend so much time trying to coverup a reputation that is clearly demonstrating you don’t follow the appropriate health certification standards.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

LJack said:


> You are a breeder offering puppies to the public and as such you should be prepared for a review of your business, just like any other. It is not bashing or an attack to hold a business to the standards of their industry. If we are talking about contractors, it is not bashing to point out that a contractor being reviewed is not licensed or bonded. Being licensed and bonded is the Standard for that business.
> 
> In Goldens we also have a standard you can find a nice short, sweet copt of it here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn-origin...6121656/Golden-Retriever-Health-Statement.pdf
> 
> ...





LJack said:


> You are a breeder offering puppies to the public and as such you should be prepared for a review of your business, just like any other. It is not bashing or an attack to hold a business to the standards of their industry. If we are talking about contractors, it is not bashing to point out that a contractor being reviewed is not licensed or bonded. Being licensed and bonded is the Standard for that business.
> 
> In Goldens we also have a standard you can find a nice short, sweet copt of it here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn-origin...6121656/Golden-Retriever-Health-Statement.pdf
> 
> ...


My opinion will mean squat to you and that is okay. Each of our dogs gets their hips, elbows, eyes, and heart checked. So whether I choose to post it in a database or not doesn't mean that I didn't do it. Also doesn't mean that they didn't pass their clearances. Maybe I just don't feel the need to? But I will definitely be changing things. Thanks for the info. 


LJack said:


> You are a breeder offering puppies to the public and as such you should be prepared for a review of your business, just like any other. It is not bashing or an attack to hold a business to the standards of their industry. If we are talking about contractors, it is not bashing to point out that a contractor being reviewed is not licensed or bonded. Being licensed and bonded is the Standard for that business.
> 
> In Goldens we also have a standard you can find a nice short, sweet copt of it here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn-origin...6121656/Golden-Retriever-Health-Statement.pdf
> 
> ...



My opinion will mean squat to you. But I do test/xray for hips/elbows/eyes/heart, but multiple different veterinarians


LJack said:


> You are a breeder offering puppies to the public and as such you should be prepared for a review of your business, just like any other. It is not bashing or an attack to hold a business to the standards of their industry. If we are talking about contractors, it is not bashing to point out that a contractor being reviewed is not licensed or bonded. Being licensed and bonded is the Standard for that business.
> 
> In Goldens we also have a standard you can find a nice short, sweet copt of it here. https://s3.amazonaws.com/cdn-origin...6121656/Golden-Retriever-Health-Statement.pdf
> 
> ...



Thank you for your information. We do test/xray like I said early twice prior to breeding for genetics, eyes, heart, elbow and hips. We even test with pennhip. We choose not to post on ofa either because its just a database and we can add to our website, or because they are prelims prior to breeding. However, we may consider otherwise so we don’t have to deal with this any longer. Yes according to the code it is not of their standard to breed prior to 24 months. We know this, this may be something we will consider, however, after much research and retesting our goldens and seeing no change or little improvement with in an 8 month period in scoring we have found that prelims are actually pretty accurate. If you look at ofa, you will find the study done on prelims and their accuracy which is actually very accurate the closer to 2 that they get. Yes I agree this is not of the ideal standard you follow but does not mean I will produce any less of a dog. Have you ever listened to your dogs heart before, and have you ever heard a murmur? Its actually pretty easy to hear a sound healthy heart. We have our dogs hearts checked regularly by our certified veterinarian and they are going to get their official clearances soon when we are allowed. This was something I had planned. We may do things differently and it may be wrong in your eyes but one day I will do something great and I know it. Then you will see what we have planned. We have our goals and we are working closer toward them. We will make some changes. Im not saying we wont. Have a good day.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> You also sent this to me in that pm I just read, I'm not paying the whole PM, but 1 sentence.
> 
> "Sometimes its hard for people to grasp that their can be more than one way to breed dogs, more than one way to health test, more than one way to record keep, more than one way to raise their puppies, more than one way to treat their pup families, more than one way to do life in general.
> 
> ...


This is what you are not understanding. I have done them all twice, cost is not the issue. I literally just dont want to expose my dogs to xrays for the 3rd time. This may be something I will do in the future, but I wont risk them getting cancer because of it. From my experience little to nothing will change in 6 months. They may get tighter and better scoring but not all of a sudden become dysplastic. That is not how that works. But you should know that. If its genetic its going to show up young in their life, sockets just don't get deeper. However the damage is done. If people see this they will either go with us or avoid us. And its okay. We only want people that will know what we are doing to be a part of what we have to offer. Its not like I am avoiding testing. I have done them all.


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## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

I wasn't going to comment until I went to your website. If I am understanding what you are saying here, you are breeding because you love the breed and want to give families good puppies. Can you help me understand this part of your website that reads like a pyramid type setup:








The gift in monies and you can earn up to are new to me. I have never seen this on a breeder website when I was researching breeders recommended by the GRCA.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

JulesAK said:


> I wasn't going to comment until I went to your website. If I am understanding what you are saying here, you are breeding because you love the breed and want to give families good puppies. Can you help me understand this part of your website that reads like a pyramid type setup:
> View attachment 873059
> 
> The gift in monies and you can earn up to are new to me. I have never seen this on a breeder website when I was researching breeders recommended by the GRCA.


I had seen it from another breeder. Basically each litter they get more money. I can see what your saying. But like I said in earlier comments. We have no puppies in guardian homes, and this gifting of money was to thank them for keeping the puppy for me. But again, we arent large enough breeders to use a guardian home, i just made the page for the future when I hold back my own offspring. I have no problem gifting people for bringing their dog back to me, being a guardian home is hard because you are missing your dog for a period of time and I would compensate that. I appreciate your question. Please let me know what else bothers you that i post.


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## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

Thank you for responding.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

JulesAK said:


> Thank you for responding.


Your welcome. Thanks for being kind about your question.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Oh gosh, go away for a day (to work on UD w a trainer 3 hours away) and come back to a whole lot of self defense... sorry, Bostickenglishgoldens but you ARE harming the breed. ESPECIALLY by "mentoring" others to do as you do instead of as is best practices. What are you mentoring on? Where is your knowledge base situated to be a mentor? There is NEVER a reason to breed an animal without the core 4 clearances done by the correct veterinarians. Ever. I've gone nearly 40 years without doing it, so it can be done (other than the time my handler let Fizz get bred underaged that is). If you see missing something on my breedings, it's because I have used 20 year old frozen semen collected before tests were part of the Code. And really, you are not a hobby breeder. That term has a definition- you do not fit it. Maybe breeding is your hobby but that doesn't make you a hobby breeder. As well, your thoughts on 3 sets of radiographs is silly. Good breeders do at most two sets, at appropriate times- once when they are about to be costing big bucks are are underaged (so that would not apply to your scenario, going to an international show for the weekend is not big bucks) and again when they are 24+months old. The appropriate practitioners (such as cardiologist for hearts not pet vets) is also laid out for you. Really, just go read the Code. And follow it. And then no one will point out all the things lacking in your "program" as you call it.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> Oh gosh, go away for a day (to work on UD w a trainer 3 hours away) and come back to a whole lot of self defense... sorry, Bostickenglishgoldens but you ARE harming the breed. ESPECIALLY by "mentoring" others to do as you do instead of as is best practices. What are you mentoring on? Where is your knowledge base situated to be a mentor? There is NEVER a reason to breed an animal without the core 4 clearances done by the correct veterinarians. Ever. I've gone nearly 40 years without doing it, so it can be done (other than the time my handler let Fizz get bred underaged that is). If you see missing something on my breedings, it's because I have used 20 year old frozen semen collected before tests were part of the Code. And really, you are not a hobby breeder. That term has a definition- you do not fit it. Maybe breeding is your hobby but that doesn't make you a hobby breeder. As well, your thoughts on 3 sets of radiographs is silly. Good breeders do at most two sets, at appropriate times- once when they are about to be costing big bucks are are underaged (so that would not apply to your scenario, going to an international show for the weekend is not big bucks) and again when they are 24+months old. The appropriate practitioners (such as cardiologist for hearts not pet vets) is also laid out for you. Really, just go read the Code. And follow it. And then no one will point out all the things lacking in your "program" as you call it.


I totally respect your opinion Prism. But until you stop breeding dogs with genetic eye issues and average hips, I can't receive anything you say as mentorship. Have a good day.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

That is baloney-
I will say it is a rare breeding program with no fails on anything (especially using frozen from a time long ago) but no ethical breeder breeds fails or continues lines that produce them. But, I have strong shoulders- prove it. I have never perpetuated any problems.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> That is baloney-
> I will say it is a rare breeding program with no fails on anything but no ethical breeder breeds fails or continues lines that produce them. Especially using frozen from a time long ago. But, I have strong shoulders- prove it. I have never perpetuated any problems.


Hopefully this helps clarify, seems like it is a regular issue for you. And if we are bettering the breed why would you use a dog with fair hips and genetic eye issues not just on one dog but many?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> This is what you are not understanding. I have done them all twice, cost is not the issue. I literally just dont want to expose my dogs to xrays for the 3rd time. This may be something I will do in the future, but I wont risk them getting cancer because of it. From my experience little to nothing will change in 6 months. They may get tighter and better scoring but not all of a sudden become dysplastic. That is not how that works. But you should know that. If its genetic its going to show up young in their life, sockets just don't get deeper. However the damage is done. If people see this they will either go with us or avoid us. And its okay. We only want people that will know what we are doing to be a part of what we have to offer. Its not like I am avoiding testing. I have done them all.


You can not have done them on your own. A vet will take the x-rays of hips and elbows and send them to OFA. They are reviewed by 3 board certified ortho vets and then are posted on the OFA database. YOU CAN'T HAVE THEM DONE ANY OTHER WAY. Your vet can't grade them, he can give you his opinion but it means nothing as he's not board cert and hasn't had the training or experience to do so. So again you're showing your lack of knowledge and are uneducated in this or again spinning lies.

The heart and eye certs need to be submitted to OFA so they can't be faked. I copy of sent by the examining vet to OFA and your copy is sent in by you and the 2 are matched to confirm authenticity of the exam. You just having them without submission to OFA can just be faked. For $8 this would have them on OFA. And for someone that is refusing to acknowledge this, makes your program look unethical at the very least 

This is starting to sucked me. At this point you are obviously deliberately not doing what you should be or you wouldn't be fighting this so much. Instead of just saying, wow that's all that I need to do to be in compliance to the GRCA CoE and have verifiable proof for everyone to see... You just keep digging a hole for yourself and you program.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> You can not have done them on your own. A vet will take the x-rays of hips and elbows and send them to OFA. They are reviewed by 3 board certified ortho vets and then are posted on the OFA database. YOU CAN'T HAVE THEM DONE ANY OTHER WAY. Your vet can't grade them, he can give you his opinion but it means nothing as he's not board cert and hasn't had the training or experience to do so. So again you're showing your lack of knowledge and are uneducated in this or again spinning lies.
> 
> The heart and eye certs need to be submitted to OFA so they can't be faked. I copy of sent by the examining vet to OFA and your copy is sent in by you and the 2 are matched to confirm authenticity of the exam. You just having them without submission to OFA can just be faked. For $8 this would have them on OFA. And for someone that is refusing to acknowledge this, makes your program look unethical at the very least
> 
> This is starting to sucked me. At this point you are obviously deliberately not doing what you should be or you wouldn't be fighting this so much. Instead of just saying, wow that's all that I need to do to be in compliance to the GRCA CoE and have verifiable proof for everyone to see... You just keep digging a hole for yourself and you program.


*Preliminary Evaluations for Animals Under 24 Months*
Frequently, breeders want early knowledge of the hip status on puppies in a given litter. Preliminary hip evaluations may be as valuable to the owner or breeder as the final OFA evaluation. This allows early selection of dogs for use as show/performance/breeding prospects and dogs best suited for pet homes.
The OFA accepts preliminary consultation radiographs on puppies as young as 4 months of age for evaluation of hip conformation. If the dog is found to be dysplastic at an early age, the economic loss from the cost of training, handling, showing and so forth can be minimized and the emotional loss reduced. These preliminary radiographs are read by the OFA staff veterinary radiologist and are not sent to the outside consulting radiologists. The regular OFA hip grading scheme (excellent, good, fair, etc) is used to report preliminary cases.

A previous OFA veterinary journal publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).



https://www.ofa.org/about/policies/preliminary-evaluations


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Actually, I will save you the trouble- because you posted a bunch of dystichia. NOT genetic. But you'd know that if you knew the conditions. Here it is- all my fails unless I forgot someone.
Prism’s Double Blessings- failed one elbow , finished CH …never bred

Prism’s Stay in the Garden- OFA Excellent w passing elbows.. yeah, spayed her too because a limp led me to a CT which told me she had ED. She HAD full clearances but a person who loves the breed would not breed the dog if an ED was diagnosed after the clearances. 
Prism’s Strike a Deal on the Brooklyn Bridge, failed hips at 6YO+/-, never bred

*Prism’s Time Rolls By Like… juvenile cataracts as did two other sibs…. so my keeper, Martha, who passed eyes and has a JH and CD? THIS is the only genetic eye issue. *

I just spayed her and that my dear is responsible. Much as it killed me, because that was a breeding with frozen no longer available. And even though my keeper (Martha) passed eyes, I did not take the chance of her producing heartache later. That uterus is gone this week.
The thing is- just follow the Code. Period. Then no one will have issue with your "program" as it is.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> Actually, I will save you the trouble- because you posted a bunch of dystichia. NOT genetic. But you'd know that if you knew the conditions. Here it is- all my fails unless I forgot someone.
> Prism’s Double Blessings- failed one elbow , finished CH …never bred
> 
> Prism’s Stay in the Garden- OFA Excellent w passing elbows.. yeah, spayed her too because a limp led me to a CT
> ...


From my research both eye issues are genetic, and so are bad hips. But thanks for sharing!


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Hopefully this helps clarify, seems like it is a regular issue for you. And if we are bettering the breed why would you use a dog with fair hips and genetic eye issues not just on one dog but many? Just remember for every finger you point at others three are pointing back at you. I did private message you these prior to keep this between us but since you feel you are so high and mighty I figured it would be best if you can clarify to everyone why you choose to do this?


I have no need to defend Prism, but... You need to stop. Your clearly have no clue what you are reading.

Those are eye certifications with BREEDER options. That means an ophthalmologist cleared then if any hereditary issues. There are issues that can crop up and Prism DISCLOSED them to be TRANSPARENT.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I have no need to defend Prism, but... You need to stop. Your clearly have no clue what you are reading.
> 
> Those are eye certifications with BREEDER options. That means an ophthalmologist cleared then if any hereditary issues. There are issues that can crop up and Prism DISCLOSED them to be TRANSPARENT.


Actually they tell you it may be genetic but also may not be. And let the breeder choose at their risk.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

In the interest of educating you- fair is not 'bad' and I have a bunch of excellents too... and B/O conditions are not genetic ...
Now, I think your research may have some flaws. This is straight from OFA, my ophthalmologist. Would I breed a dog with multiple extra lashes? No. BUT here is the biggie- I post my eye exams every year on OFA and spend that measly $8 per to do so in full transparency. They get matched with the copy the ophthalmologist sends in so my puppy people know they are real and not forged. You're just trying to sling mud but seriously, I have nothing to hide and I do it all within the Code. So when you can say the same, we will have a conversation. All those 'Fails' I posted? that's an amazing record given my years in this breed.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> I really don't think you know what prelims are. But you can find that info on ofa.


I know EXACTLY what prelims are, they aren't final and mean nothing. They are useless and can't be used as certifications. To breed on prelims is about an as unethical as it gets. They are to be used for breeders who are showing a dog and want to know if they are looking dysplastic before spending the next year showing to just not be able to breed that dog. But they can look ok at 12 months and end up dysplastic by 24 months.

And no one does hearts certs at 16 weeks, a vet listens for murmurs then but a cardiologist won't do a cert until minimum 12 months of age. Forget about stop talking you really need to stop breeding, your a detriment to the breed at this point and your proving it more and more with every post.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I wish there was a way to get through to people. They get so defensive you can't educate them or explain anything to them cause the just double down, bear down on their wrong information.

In this case, they are just saying so much they are leaving they have to clue what they are talking about. I'm really doubting this"breeder" was ever mentored. She obviously hasn't ever mentioned who she was mentored by and doubt she ever will, and never had been mentored.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> In the interest of educating you- fair is not 'bad' and I have a bunch of excellents too... and B/O conditions are not genetic ...
> Now, I think your research may have some flaws. This is straight from OFA.


I personally would not want to breed a dog with mediocre hips. That is what is wrong with OFA. Why breed fair hips? Those are not good hips, not enough coverage. When you breed fair then you


Maggie'sVoice said:


> I know EXACTLY what prelims are, they aren't final and mean nothing. They are useless and can't be used as certifications. To breed on prelims is about an as unethical as it gets. They are to be used for breeders who are showing a dog and want to know if they are looking dysplastic before spending the next year showing to just not be able to breed that dog. But they can look ok at 12 months and end up dysplastic by 24 months.
> 
> And no one does hearts certs at 16 weeks, a vet listens for murmurs then but a cardiologist won't do a cert until minimum 12 months of age. Forget about stop talking you really need to stop breeding, your a detriment to the breed at this point and your proving it more and more with every post.


With all do respect, I am unsure if you actually hear what your saying. IF THEY MEANT NOTHING, THEN NO ONE WOULD DO THEM. And from my experience and others that I KNOW personally that have done studies generations down, ALL HAVE SUCCESS! So YOU please do more digging. You could save your program 2 years.

*Preliminary Evaluations for Animals Under 24 Months*
Frequently, breeders want early knowledge of the hip status on puppies in a given litter. Preliminary hip evaluations may be as valuable to the owner or breeder as the final OFA evaluation. This allows early selection of dogs for use as show/performance/breeding prospects and dogs best suited for pet homes.
The OFA accepts preliminary consultation radiographs on puppies as young as 4 months of age for evaluation of hip conformation. If the dog is found to be dysplastic at an early age, the economic loss from the cost of training, handling, showing and so forth can be minimized and the emotional loss reduced. These preliminary radiographs are read by the OFA staff veterinary radiologist and are not sent to the outside consulting radiologists. The regular OFA hip grading scheme (excellent, good, fair, etc) is used to report preliminary cases.

A previous OFA veterinary journal publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).



https://www.ofa.org/about/policies/preliminary-evaluations


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Let's see here, do I take the risk of the potential for extra eye lashes that may come and go but still pass or breed failed elbows which did not pass...the claims here trying to defend a breeding program would be laughable if it weren't for the innocent puppies being produced and the trusting families reliant on a breeder's knowledge, ethics and dedication to the breed. Furthermore, I do wish Dr Stern would participate on this forum, would love for him to see the post regarding the ability to easily diagnose heart murmurs...I guess all those years becoming a board certified veterinary cardiologist were a waste.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> I personally would not want to breed a dog with mediocre hips. That is what is wrong with OFA. Why breed fair hips? Those are not good hips, not enough coverage. When you breed fair then you
> 
> With all do respect, I am unsure if you actually hear what your saying. IF THEY MEANT NOTHING, THEN NO ONE WOULD DO THEM. And from my experience and others that I KNOW personally that have done studies generations down, ALL HAVE SUCCESS! So YOU please do more digging. You could save your program 2 years.


They are only to show if they are dysplasia right then, mean nothing for clearances, just if you should continue showing to get the points and CH. THEY ARE FOR NOTHING ELSE. So I'm the end they meaning nothing for certifications


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I wish there was a way to get through to people. They get so defensive you can't educate them or explain anything to them cause the just double down, bear down on their wrong information.
> 
> In this case, they are just saying so much they are leaving they have to clue what they are talking about. I'm really doubting this"breeder" was ever mentored. She obviously hasn't ever mentioned who she was mentored by and doubt she ever will, and never had been mentored.


Again with all do respect. NO ONE will respect you because of how you treat people. Now if you wanted to private message me and in a caring way actually try to help me instead of "try" to blast me or harm my program THEN I would respect what you have to say. But all I see is cruel people that take much time out of their day to blast breeders and make them feel less than for being different. I am different and that's okay. I may change somethings or do things even more different. But you can't tell me what I think it wrong because I may have a different source of information but its doesn't mean my research was wrong. Maybe instead of saying what I didn't do right, you could try congratulating me on what I did do right, and then encouraging me to do even better. Haven't you ever heard of the peanut butter jelly sandwich method. Say something nice, say something not so nice, and say something nice again. Its a great way to reach people and encourage people to do what is right. The way you guys present yourself is offsetting and wrong. Regardless you picked the wrong breeder to "bully" aka "mentor" in your odd way. I know my stuff, and one day you guys will be like "Hey I remember her". But in a good way. Because I KNOW I will rock this, and I will do everything in my power to create the BEST dogs regardless how I decide to run my program. I am determined, I am optimistic. I am DEDICATED, And I am not idiot to bullies, and I do not let people belittle me, and I do not allow people to talk down to me and get me down. I am better than that. I am a GREAT breeder, may not be "ethical or reputable" to your standards, but I am a heck of a good breeder. And I do breed great dogs. If I didn't I wouldn't have a pup in the top 5% pennhip right now. You guys continue on, but I encourage you all to be NICE, be KIND, and be RESPECTFUL. Be MINDFUL of peoples feelings. These are lives you degrade, and lives you mess with, peoples families, peoples HARD work. This thread will NOT affect me in any way. And IF it turns a couple people away they are NOT meant to be my puppy families. But if it brings people in because they know my heart, then they ARE meant to be our families. You guys NEED to know what respect and kindness is. I hope you can work on yourselves.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I suspect I know which you would choose Sue...an extra lash every other year or ED... 

The sad thing is the whole 'accident' baloney on the elbows, and the no eyes posted.. and I think someone will lmk if other absurdities pop up but I will be done. This woman does not want to learn, she wants no one to criticize her ""program" which is not even a real program. There's no longevity to it, no titles, no consistency.. just a "different" way of doing things which is hurting the breed and taking others under her wing to make more puppies who have nothing pedigrees. There is only one way to do some things right such as clearances, registrations. And the whole guardian thing is just a pyramid scheme. I wouldn't take whatever you're paying to risk my bitch's life, and deal with her complete coat blow afterwards so you could make money off her uterus. It's wrong. 
I hope you learn from this thread bostick. Put all your clearances on OFA, get them from the correct vets, and when you are not spending money titling puppies there is no reason to do 16 week prelims. Wait until they are 24 months old. Just follow the best practices. That's all. And in 40 years you come back and post all your produced fails, ok?


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> They are only to show if they are dysplasia right then, mean nothing for clearances, just if you should continue showing to get the points and CH. THEY ARE FOR NOTHING ELSE. So I'm the end they meaning nothing for certifications


Maybe look into pennhip and you may change your opinion.
Evaluation of the relationship between Orthopedic Foundation for Animals' hip joint scores and PennHIP distraction index values in dogs: 80% of dogs evaluated as “normal” by the OFA were found to have hip laxity by PennHIP testing that predisposed them to developing hip osteoarthritis in the future.



Evaluation of the relationship between Orthopedic Foundation for Animals' hip joint scores and PennHIP distraction index values in dogs | Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association | Vol 237 , No 5


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

This thread was started by a person seeking a puppy. It was the most LOVING, KIND, THOUGHTFUL, RESPECTFUL thing to provide an objective assessment of the pairing as requested by the OP on a public forum. The standard followed by DEDICATED, KNOWLEDGEABLE and ETHICAL breeders is to follow the GRCA standard for goldens being bred in the US and following the guidelines as outlined in the Code of Ethics. To do otherwise, would not be showing the care and attention that the OP deserves. I always hope once one knows better, they do better...vice dig a hole stick their head in the sand.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> I suspect I know which you would choose Sue...an extra lash every other year or ED...
> 
> The sad thing is the whole 'accident' baloney on the elbows, and the no eyes posted.. and I think someone will lmk if other absurdities pop up but I will be done. This woman does not want to learn, she wants no one to criticize her ""program" which is not even a real program. There's no longevity to it, no titles, no consistency.. just a "different" way of doing things which is hurting the breed and taking others under her wing to make more puppies who have nothing pedigrees. There is only one way to do some things right such as clearances, registrations. And the whole guardian thing is just a pyramid scheme. I wouldn't take whatever you're paying to risk my bitch's life, and deal with her complete coat blow afterwards so you could make money off her uterus. It's wrong.
> I hope you learn from this thread bostick. Put all your clearances on OFA, get them from the correct vets, and when you are not spending money titling puppies there is no reason to do 16 week prelims. Wait until they are 24 months old. Just follow the best practices. That's all. And in 40 years you come back and post all your produced fails, ok?


Your so positive and encouraging. Thanks BEST mentor EVER! Have a good day prism.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

As your typical family pet dog buyer I would only want a puppy from a breeder who completely follows the GRCA Code of Ethics. No matter how passionately a breeder feels about the goodness of their way of doing things if it doesn't meet the COE standards, to me they are wrong. The GRCA has developed these standards for good reasons based on research and experience. I would feel blessed beyond measure to have a puppy from Prism.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Maybe look into pennhip and you may change your opinion.


Pennhip is a laxity test. It's a guide not a certification. It's never too be used as a standalone only test for hips but in conjunction with OFA certifications


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Pennhip is a laxity test. It's a guide not a certification. It's never too be used as a standalone only test for hips but in conjunction with OFA certifications


Yes, but if ofa was a good tool alone then someone would have bred out dysplasia in goldens by now. Again time to look into different ways to test and time to be different.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Yes, but if ofa was a good tool alone then someone would have bred out dysplasia in goldens by now. Again time to look into different ways to test and time to be different.


Honestly, not by breeders that continue to breed dogs who fail hips or elbows.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

What I see here is so many breeders focused on only half of the issues. What about cancer? Why have none of you tried to breed cancer out of your lines? Their is so much more we can reach for when trying to better the breed. I have my goals. We will see in 20 years where we are at. Thanks for the chat.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> What I see here is so many breeders focused on only half of the issues. What about cancer? Why have none of you tried to breed cancer out of your lines? Their is so much more we can reach for when trying to better the breed. I have my goals. We will see in 20 years where we are at. Thanks for the chat.


Don't deflect, were taking what the minimum REQUIREMENTS are for breeders to do, the 4 core health clearances.

Cancer... A whole other beast. But a lot can be contributed to early spay and neuter (under or over 12 months) because of the lack of hormones which patent against a lot of the cancers like MST, hemangiosarcoma and lymphoma. But you should know this if your a breeder that does what they can to stay on top of studies which has shown this. It away showed that leaving them intact shows much much lower incidences of these cancers. But everyone tries to start clear of presents with rates of cancers BUT, you also need to know things like if spayed or neutered and the dates for each dog.

But if you're having this much trouble grappling the fundamentals of the GRCA CoE, I can't see how your even begin to go down there cancer road


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## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

cwag said:


> As your typical family pet dog buyer I would only want a puppy from a breeder who completely follows the GRCA Code of Ethics. No matter how passionately a breeder feels about the goodness of their way of doing things if it doesn't meet the COE standards, to me they are wrong. The GRCA has developed these standards for good reasons based on research and experience. I would feel blessed beyond measure to have a puppy from Prism.


Couldn't agree with you more cwag. I was so fortunate to find this forum when I first started to look for a Golden. The years of experience and advice from breeder's like Prism and members who honor the GRCA code are what led me to my wonderful dog. 
I hope that people looking for a puppy, that is bred with GRCA code adherence, will educate themselves enough on this forum to find a breeder who follows the code. Sometimes that means waiting. If someone is not willing to wait, then they are free to make a choice to go with a lesser breeder. 
Jules


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Don't deflect, were taking what the minimum REQUIREMENTS are for breeders to do, the 4 core health clearances.
> 
> Cancer... A whole other beast. But a lot can be contributed to early spay and neuter (under or over 12 months) because of the lack of hormones which patent against a lot of the cancers like MST, hemangiosarcoma and lymphoma. But you should know this if your a breeder that does what they can to stay on top of studies which has shown this. It away showed that leaving them intact shows much much lower incidences of these cancers. But everyone tries to start clear of presents with rates of cancers BUT, you also need to know things like if spayed or neutered and the dates for each dog.
> 
> But if you're having this much trouble grappling the fundamentals of the GRCA CoE, I can't see how your even begin to go down there cancer road


Their are way more cancer causers than that we are well aware. But just so you know we grasp the fundamentals (; we may just agree on things a bit different. We think the CoE is great to go by, but we also think their is way more you can do than just the bare minimum like that.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Their are way more cancer causers than that we are well aware. But just so you know we grasp the fundamentals (; we may just agree on things a bit different. We think the CoE is great to go by, but we also think their is way more you can do than just the bare minimum like that.


I never said that was the only way they get cancer nor the only types they get. You mention CoE, but you proven to don't adhere to it or didn't even know what was contained in it. So you shouldn't make it seem you follow it or even knew what it was.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Their are way more cancer causers than that we are well aware. But just so you know we grasp the fundamentals (; we may just agree on things a bit different. We think the CoE is great to go by, but we also think their is way more you can do than just the bare minimum like that.


I so agree the CoE is a minimum...I as a pet parent am exceeding the CoE; sadly your breeding program does not meet the minimum which you also admit is great to go by.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> What I see here is so many breeders focused on only half of the issues. What about cancer? Why have none of you tried to breed cancer out of your lines? Their is so much more we can reach for when trying to better the breed. I have my goals. We will see in 20 years where we are at. Thanks for the chat.


How on earth can you say "Why have none of you tried to breed cancer out of your lines? " How would you have any idea what they are trying to do in that regard? Step one is to do the minimum 4 health clearances which we know are critical to breeding healthier dogs with better chances of a good life. You are not even there yet. Many breeders are way beyond step one doing DNA testing, going far and wide to find the best sire for their girls to produce an even better next generation and cancer is definitely on their radar as a factor in breeding choices. It feels like you are just throwing stones to try and get off the original topic which asked what people thought of your breeding pair. You may want to let this go as you are not making yourself look more reputable.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> But until you stop breeding dogs with genetic eye issues....


Sorry, but is the implication here that breeding a dog with breeder's option eye "issues" is somehow worse than breeding a dog with verified elbow dysplasia? And somehow, a dog who gets elbow dysplasia from an injury makes that so much worse. Goldens should not be sensitive enough to get elbow dysplasia from an injury. Certainly a couple extra eyelashes here and there is 100x better than a crippling, life-altering joint disease.

I got my boy's hips and elbow x-rayed at almost 5 YEARS old and he passed both with flying colors (ofa excellent and ofa normal). He is not a "sit on the couch, snuggly" type dog, he's an extremely active, energetic agility dog. Granted, he also comes from multiple generations of health tested, OFA certified dogs - perhaps that's the difference.

Things happen when breeding, dogs aren't robots, I get that. It's the way we respond to the unfortunate news that really lays claim to whether or not someone is ethical. Spaying your girl because her siblings failed eye clearances -- that's ethical. Breeding your dysplastic dog without posting the failing grade publicly, not mentioning anything about the "injury" on your website, and STILL offering said dog up for stud -- that alone makes you unethical. Never mind the breednig underage and the somehow thinking your experiences outweighs the years and years of experience that went into creating the GRCA CoE.


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## Bostickenglishgoldens (May 15, 2020)

Thank you all for your concerns and "mentorship" and those of you that were actually helpful instead of just outright rude. We will be working on our program (; Thanks!


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

SheetsSM said:


> This thread was started by a person seeking a puppy. It was the most LOVING, KIND, THOUGHTFUL, RESPECTFUL thing to provide an objective assessment of the pairing as requested by the OP on a public forum. The standard followed by DEDICATED, KNOWLEDGEABLE and ETHICAL breeders is to follow the GRCA standard for goldens being bred in the US and following the guidelines as outlined in the Code of Ethics. To do otherwise, would not be showing the care and attention that the OP deserves. I always hope once one knows better, they do better...vice dig a hole stick their head in the sand.


Yep- OP here and I am staying as far away as possible from Bostick! Thanks everyone for at least saving me the trouble of dealing with her.


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## Ksm (May 14, 2019)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> Their are way more cancer causers than that we are well aware. But just so you know we grasp the fundamentals (; we may just agree on things a bit different. *We think the CoE is great to go by*, but we also think their is way more you can do than just the bare minimum like that.


Then why don't you?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Bostickenglishgoldens said:


> ...Koda has 1 elbow with minor change. I have had his hips and elbows done twice! Yes it was due to impact injury and no you cant even tell because he has absolutely no pain or discomfort. however the 50% elbow fails is incorrect. He has one half sister that has elbow dysplasia and when I followed it back it was from the dads side (of the half sister). When I looked at all the litters from Kodas parents, i believe they had 3 litters and no one else had reported any elbow issues. So please dont make false claims.


In the interest of you understanding how to read OFA: here is what OFA has: https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2031401 (and the DJDI that WAS there 8 months ago has been removed so did you ask OFA to remove that record? If not, you should call and ask where it is, and request it be reposted. This is transparency)

Scroll down to full sibs: There are 7 of them who have had any kind of ortho clearances. Of those 7, 4 are missing an elbow number. As we know from Koda, this indicates a fail. Add in Koda, and that's well more than 50%- that's just over 71%. Then look at paternal half sibs: there are 5 w ortho clearances, 2 of them have not passed elbows. Then look at maternal half sibs- only one, and she is a big fat fail elbows. You DO have an elbow problem.
Ignoring it is just so harmful to the breed and to your puppy people. The quality of life implications to puppies produced with the increased risk of inherited joint issues and the heartbreak for their families is huge. It doesn't have to be this way. Your mentor has done you, your dogs and your customers a huge disservice by encouraging you to bypass the GRCA code of ethics. I truly hope you will revisit the COE and study in depth. The idea that you can farm puppies and have a 'guardian home' ponzi scheme to make money is a false path.


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