# An "honest" dog



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I posed this question at the end of another thread where it never got answered so I'm hoping someone over here has some thoughts.

During our obedience training some experienced people have commented to me that Zoe is an "honest" dog. What does that mean? I've had the impression it was not necessarily a compliment. I've always thought all dogs were honest. (Please feel free to be "honest".)

The other comment that was made recently during a training session was that she seemed unsure and didn't want to be wrong. Is the not wanting to be wrong more a matter of temperament or just where we were in training at the moment?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My Faelan is an 'honest dog'. In my opinion this is a very good type of dog to have. 

He hates to displease although he will is willing to try things to earn rewards, even if only a smile. That is, he does not shut down with repeated failures.

He truly tries to do what you want and you can sometimes see him thinking - an example may clarify.

A recent agility assignment had him jumping toward me over a full height jump - and I was less than 22 inches away with a wall behind me - a lot of pressure for him. Faelan respects me and was unwilling to invade my space so I had to take additional steps to let him know it was okay (turning my back to him bit looking over my shoulder. then sideways etc). You could literally see him thinking about how to solve the problem he was faced with.

I have had tough dogs, I have had soft dogs. An honest dog is something a bit different. They may lie down or sit or stand while they are figuring something out but they will try various things - a true thinking dog.

With this type of dog, you need to allow that thinking space and experimentation but in my opinion both of you will be a stronger more bonded team  By teaching him that wrong choices are merely wrong and not bad, she can blossom.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Titan is an honest dog.. During training and showing he gives me everything. He focuses and totally wants to do it right. With an honest dog if the dog is not doing something there is a valid reason.. Either he does not understand it.. or can't do it..
He just doesn't decide to do something else.. When Titan went down on some sits.. I knew to start with the Chiro and work my way through it.. yep he was out and it was painful for him to sit... He is not a soft dog but will give me what I ask because that is what he wants..
If you've ever watched some runs there are dogs that will just stand there a look through their owners.. Try training a Chessie and you will know what I mean. They are stubborn and they do it on their time and if they want.. And honest dog will not.. would never occur to them.. 
I would take an honest dog everytime and am hoping that is was I have with Mighty..So far we are on the fence.. he has a little more all about me attitude..lol!
make any sense??


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

For what it's worth, Tito has often been called an honest dog in obedience, the breed ring, and in agility (not in field, LOL). Sunrise and Titan have described it very well. I consider it the ultimate compliment to be told he's an honest dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

as far as not being wrong, one of the things we teach the dogs out in the field is that ANY answer is better than NO answer. They will never get corrected for an honest effort, only for lack of effort.


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## drloripalooza (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks for asking this here, I just brought it up again on the other thread, lol.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think an honest dog doesn't try to "get away" with doing something just because he can.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I always thought it was a compliment, and I think of it as my kind of Golden. It's why I love the breed. I think Sunrise and Titan1 have described it beautifully.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Thanks for the responses above, very helpful and encourage me to keep working.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

this was an interesting set of response... so far neither of mine are "honest" dogs! LOL

Tucker is the closest--he loves to please and will usually try. But he can be easily distracted by something he thinks is more important and blow me off. Bella could become such a dog but right now she's too fearful.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

To me an "honest dog" is one who is transparent in his reasons and motivations for doing certain behaviors in a training setting. They do X because that's what they've been taught and reinforced for, and they do X consistently when given the same set of cues and set ups. They don't lie. They aren't "ring wise" (or collar wise, or whatever). They repeat behaviors because they've been allowed to practice them (good or bad). They are predictable and stable. Consistent training influences them to perform predictably in novel settings.
I don't really equate it with "wanting to please," "hate to be wrong/want to be right" etc. I honestly don't get these expressions or use them. If a dog hates to be wrong it's because he's been made afraid to guess the wrong answer. This reflects poorly on the trainer, not the dog! I don't believe dogs want to please us for some completely abstract, innate and/or arbitrary reason.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Not sure I agree about "hate to be wrong", Anney. Some dogs (and people) just lack more confidence than others, by their nature. They are bothered more by being wrong. Very confident dogs I think are apparent from young puppy on.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I have never heard the term "honest dog" before so this is interesting. Is it similar to a "hard" vs "soft" dog? I was told by a trainer years ago that Asia is a "hard dog" I think meaning she doesn't crumble when corrected but not sure? She does want to please for sure.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm thinking about all my goldens and which ones I consider honest dogs. Raider, definitely, and Rusty. The girls, Tess and Libby, maybe Libby but I don't think Tess. And the jury is still out on Tugg.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Not sure that I would equate the honest dog with being soft or hard..I would imagine there would some of both. I can only speak to what I know about my dog because everyone will have their opinions and are welcome to them. Titan is not fearful of making a mistake. In fact most of the time he feels it was totally my fault and gives me the look of disgust.(okay so most of the time it IS me..lol) He is also not a soft dog nor will he shut down if he makes a mistake. I have campaigned this dog for enough years that if his training or corrections were tough and he was afraid to make the mistake I would have not gotten anywhere. When you show often enough your dog tells the story in the ring. If he makes a mistake it is an "honest" mistake. He has not decided to go sniff the corner of the ring. So again my definition of honest and BTW I would love to have another honest dog..


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> He has not decided to go sniff the corner of the ring.


ha, that would be my dog. Interestingly enough, the dog I have in training is generally the dog I have in the ring with Flip. He does plenty of stuff wrong in the ring, but he does it in practice too. Conner, on the other hand, I consider a very honest dog, but he was well known for making certain mistakes only in the ring. But in his case I really think he just thought the rules in the ring were different than outside the ring. He wasn't deliberately trying to get away with stuff.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm new at this, so I could be totally off base, but from reading the above comments, I would classify Bella as an "honest" and "hard" dog. She legitimately gives good effort most of the time. I'm inclined to think her "mistakes" are due to my lack of training experience. As for the "hard" dog part, she doesn't really respond to corrections with a prong collar. It doesn't even seem to bother her much. I could probably just use a buckle collar and get the same results. She responds best to food. I'm not sure if that's good or bad. She has responded to corrections with the ecollar for other issues, yet has never vocalized, or gotten visibly upset by it. It's more of an annoyance than anything, like an itch that needs to be scratched. I don't know it any of that makes sense, but those are just my thoughts off the top of my head. 


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## drloripalooza (Jan 7, 2012)

While I think their is a marked behavioral component to training, I believe there are dogs who like to please. Maybe I'm crazy, but my previous Goldens and Cattle Dog mix are like this. With my current Golden, food is key. With my Toller/Golden it's a mix. I don't know if it has to do with bond, temperament, or just something about the dog itself.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

On the retriever forums, they've discussed "soft and hard" extensively.
The consensus seems to be that "soft" or "hard" have to do with how much physical correction a dog can take. A "soft" dog will whine and put up a big show if you so much as smack him with a tissue. A "hard" dog can be smacked with a 2 x 4 (think labs here, LOL) and doesn't even notice.
The other term that is often used is "sensitive", which has more to do with how they respond to verbal corrections. 
Tito is a hard dog. But he is very sensitive. You could whack him upside the head and he wouldn't even flinch, but yell at him and he will melt into a puddle on the floor.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Conner is a soft, sensitive, honest dog. Flip is a hard, insensitive cheater!

But I love them both dearly.

You wouldnt think such a dog could be such a cuddler and sweetheart, but I joke that Flip is such a momma's boy he'd probably try to crawl into my womb. Then he'd get bored and keep poking his head out.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

That confirms that Bella is definitely not "soft." Although it would be nice if the corrections were more effective at times, her easy going temperament has probably bailed me out a few times. I'm sure I've made plenty of mistakes along the way, and will probably continue to do so. 


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I think of my Sally and Mantha as honest dogs. Both dogs did whatever was asked of them... In the obedience ring, they both did whatever they were told to do..never would consider sniffing the floor, going out the gate, etc. What you had was what you got. And Sally was very soft, Mantha is not soft nor hard, just very confident. My Laney, on the other hand always kept me guessing. The first time she got me going, we were showing in Novice B at the Yankee Specialty... I called her to front, she came at100 mph, halfway thru, she stopped and went to check out the other obedience ring next to us. Then she started back up at 100 mph and headed for the ring gate, but at the last minute, turned and came to front. Showed her in Open at the GRCA National in 1999. Sent her over the high jump, she jumped, took a few strides, turned around, sniffed the back of the jump, turned around again, retrieved the dumbbell and came back over the jump, dumbbell in mouth. She actually got her CD and CDX in three straight shows each. Onto Utility A, showing in the pouring rain... Sent her to the articles, ran past the articles to a puddle in the corner, splashed in the puddle, turned around, picked the correct article and brought it back... Ended up winning her class as there are frequently few entries in Utility A and people pulled due to the weather. I always called her my blonde border collie because weather was never a factor with her. And while I don't think she was dishonest in trying to change things up, she was more likely to put her spin on things than dogs likely Mantha and Sally.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

This is a perfect description!!





hotel4dogs said:


> On the retriever forums, they've discussed "soft and hard" extensively.
> The consensus seems to be that "soft" or "hard" have to do with how much physical correction a dog can take. A "soft" dog will whine and put up a big show if you so much as smack him with a tissue. A "hard" dog can be smacked with a 2 x 4 (think labs here, LOL) and doesn't even notice.
> The other term that is often used is "sensitive", which has more to do with how they respond to verbal corrections.
> Tito is a hard dog. But he is very sensitive. You could whack him upside the head and he wouldn't even flinch, but yell at him and he will melt into a puddle on the floor.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think terms like "hard" or "soft" are sorta limiting. Barb I've never equated "hard" or "soft" solely in terms of physical corrections, but that's an interesting take on it.
Slater has really taught me a lot about this...
He is can take more pressure from the collar than a lot of dogs, and rarely makes a physical or verbal reaction to the collar. However, he is very sensitive when it comes to verbal or physical corrections from the handler. He will flinch or grovel if corrected by the handler rather than by the collar. There have been times when he's ducked away from me if I've made some odd movement, and he has NEVER been hit as a form of punishment. (**Sidebar :: this is the beauty of training with a modern ecollar program....the dog never thinks you are the bad guy. For Slater this is absolutely essential.) Either way he will rebound and work through the problem immediately afterward; he doesn't sulk or pout. What I've realized is that he is not so much "sensitive" -- he is DEMONSTRATIVE. He wears his emotions on his sleeve. Easy to read! Is this hard or soft? He may display the signs of a soft dog, yet he can take a correction and keep on going. 
Fisher is not like this, he never looks too sorry after getting a correction, but yet it doesn't take much to change his behavior with a correction.
This has been an interesting discussion!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> I think of my Sally and Mantha as honest dogs. Both dogs did whatever was asked of them... In the obedience ring, they both did whatever they were told to do..never would consider sniffing the floor, going out the gate, etc. What you had was what you got. And Sally was very soft, Mantha is not soft nor hard, just very confident. My Laney, on the other hand always kept me guessing. The first time she got me going, we were showing in Novice B at the Yankee Specialty... I called her to front, she came at100 mph, halfway thru, she stopped and went to check out the other obedience ring next to us. Then she started back up at 100 mph and headed for the ring gate, but at the last minute, turned and came to front. Showed her in Open at the GRCA National in 1999. Sent her over the high jump, she jumped, took a few strides, turned around, sniffed the back of the jump, turned around again, retrieved the dumbbell and came back over the jump, dumbbell in mouth. She actually got her CD and CDX in three straight shows each. Onto Utility A, showing in the pouring rain... Sent her to the articles, ran past the articles to a puddle in the corner, splashed in the puddle, turned around, picked the correct article and brought it back... Ended up winning her class as there are frequently few entries in Utility A and people pulled due to the weather. I always called her my blonde border collie because weather was never a factor with her. And while I don't think she was dishonest in trying to change things up, she was more likely to put her spin on things than dogs likely Mantha and Sally.


I love this story... 
Janice are Laney and Flip related....teehee...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Another time in Utility A, our judge was Tibbie Chase who frequently wore skirts... Sent her to the articles, she ran to check out the skirt, then went back to the articles. She was a funny dog. Her pedigree was Colabaugh on top and her dam was from a Gaylan's line bitch sired by Expo...I loved my Laney. Mind you my goals were never big, just wanted to get a UD.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

In obedience I'm told she is honest. I believe it's because once I define the rules to the game and she understands them, she will try her best to play by those rules. 
Unforchantly for Winter, I'm not very good at defining the rules for her. My footwork is a mess, I sometimes leave a shoulder back on turns...... a whole basketful of inconsistencies. When I have my act together I'm told we are quite good, but it is a flickering light.


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