# Needs a new home Part 2



## RJutten

Hello all! 

Where to start... Hi my name is RJ, today I got off the phone from my sister with bad news. Iowa golden Rescue will not be taking my mothers Golden Retriever Prince.  

So I immediately started looking for more info on how to save him and ran across this site.The first post that I read was "He needs a good home" by MAttM. My predicament is very similar.

The story began 3 years ago when my Grandfather (Moms dad) passed away suddenly. She was grieving and had come to the conclusion that she wanted a golden. Her father had given her a Golden named Prince when she was young. Only to have to see him givin away due to moving =( 

Many of us were against this, as she and my father already had 4 little dogs. 2 Dachshunds and 2 Pugs. all 4 in upper age. But she said that she would do everything to take care of him properly. We gave in hoping that this would give her some comfort from losing her father. ( we have always been a dog Family) 3 the of the dogs were takin in when others could not care for them any longer.

So entered Prince, They got him at a golden Breeder. And brought the little pup home. He fit right in with the other dogs. The only problem was he was growing and becoming much larger then the other 4 dogs. I think that is were his dog aggression started. He was in a situation were they would get in scuffles with the other dogs that had set there ways over a toy or bone. Which was fine because he was so small as a pup. But as he grew I don't think he noticed how much stronger and dominant he was over the other 4 now. His alpha ways spread to aggression with other dogs. Mainly over a bone or toy. He would get in scuffles. 

About the age of 1.5 years old, Prince had grown to a very strong Alpha drivin Golden Retriever. Extremely loving and wanting to play. Something the other dogs did not want to do. Then Suddenly my father passed away in NOV 2011 at age 56 from a blood clots in his lung. :--sad: Our worlds were flipped upside down. My father was the main dog provider, they listened to him well and recognized him as the alpha of the house.

I stayed at the house for a few months to help my mother, I knew Prince was confused that his main care giver was gone. Yet he was a great dog just lacking the training of a young dog. about 2 weeks after I had gone home. I got a call from my mom. Prince had bitten the neighbor.. 

I came over right away and asked what had happened. The neighbor had come over at night and knocked on the back door. It was dark and he had a coat and hat on. My mother held Prince back as he was wondering who was outside. As my mother was speaking to him he noticed Prince trying to get by her to see what was going on. He put his arm out and Sarcastically said " Oh no dont bite me Prince!" a few times. That was all Prince needed to think something was wrong. He got by my mother and bit his arm. 

The neighbor had to get some stitches. He did not want to do anything to Prince. He said that it was his fault and should of never done what he did. Either way it is reported at the hospital as a dog bite. Prince was on house arrest for 3 weeks.

Fast forward about a month were we lost Betsy a loving 15 year old pug to kidney failure and also Duke a 14 year old Dachshunds. Mind you I had taken 1 of the other dogs (Baily Ray, Black pug  ) home to be with me and my Black lab so My mom would not have all 5 dogs.

As confused as Prince was by losing his Dad and 3 of the other pups. He stayed by my mother comforting her and being what we all know golden's to be. A angel. about 6 months later we got more bad news. My grandmother (moms Mother) took a turn for the worse. She had been diagnosed with cancer around the time my father had passed. And did not have much time left. She went to be with the lord in Sept. 2012

My mother felt lost. The main thing that kept her strong threw losing her father and mother and husband was God first and second Prince. 

In Nov of 2012. My mother was diagnosed with angiosarcoma breast cancer. Yet another blow to her and the family. She started chemo in Dec. we also lost Dixie Doodle the 2nd Dachshund this month. 

Christmas eve. My sister and I decided to have Christmas eve like we always did before the passing of our loving family members. So much had gone wrong in the last few years that Holidays were not what they use to be. We had the whole family over like old times. 25 plus people! that night as my sister and brother in law were cooking and cleaning. Our cousins showed up a bit early. no one was at the door at the time and they came in like everyone does on the holidays. Prince was already confused by what was going on and Dixie was barking like crazy as always. Prince noticed them coming in the front door and bit are little cousin in the face. there was no tearing just puncture marks threw her check. 

I am telling u the whole story not to defend Prince with his biting. But to explain what all he has been threw. He has had no training, as my mom just has not had the time or energy from all that has happened to do so. Prince has taken over as the alpha of the house and I know he bit my cousin by protecting his home. Is it right what happened? no. but is it Princes fault? I do not think so. He is one of the main reason my mother is able to keep going everyday. He is by her side all the time. loving and playful. He is only 3 years old.

My mother realizes even though it breaks her heart to Let him go. She has to find another family for him. With chemo and radiation she will not have the strength to take care of Prince properly. She feels terrible that she was not able to train him. She also realizes she should not of brought him into a family with 4 little dogs. He needs a family were he can play outside and be trained the way he should of a few years ago. We had contacted the Golden Rescue of Iowa. They came out and looked at Prince.They liked him allot. It took my sister emailing 3 times over the last 3 weeks to get a response finally that they could not help us because he had bitten someone.

I do not blame them. But I have to try else were. Prince is a loving dog. very playful. and loyal. He has never bitten or gone after someone inside the house. And I can not bring my self to have him put down. Its not fair to him. He needs a chance to shine. 

Please if anyone can help point me in the right direction I would be so grateful!

Thanks, RJ


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## Bentleysmom

I saw your 1st post and I just wrote this... http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/128706-older-pup-young-adult.html
Could it be karma? Good luck

I'm sorry about your mom and all the trouble with this dog. I think an animal behaviorist is called for because this is serious but not something to try and fix alone.


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## SheetsSM

Your family has had quite the ordeal. Have you contacted Prince's breeder? A reputable breeder will take the dog back at any age. You may seek out other rescues as well, though keep in mind the liability of taking on a dog with a bite record x's 2 will makes things difficult. Has Prince seen a behaviorist yet?


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## OutWest

It sounds to me like Prince might need a home where he's the only dog, probably with someone who's experienced with large dogs. He may not even be very alpha--sometimes dogs _act_ alpha to fill a void. 

But I'm not a trainer or behaviorist and that's what he needs. It sounds as if you have time constraints due to your mom's illness (I'm really sorry your family has had so many losses and illnesses...) so I'm not sure what to suggest. At this point, you might look into some last-chance animal rescue groups. I don't know what or where they are, but they do exist. 

You should definitely contact his breeder to see they'll take him back. 

I wish I had more to offer you. From what you describe, I would agree he doesn't sound like a lost cause at all. :no: I hope you can find him the right new home.


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## RJutten

Bentleysmom- thank you for connecting the 2 post!

Sheets-no behaviorist for Prince. The first year that my mom and dad had them. They took him to Petco for training. that didn't last very long.  I have not contacted the breeder. But i will try to find info in the next few days~

OutWest-As for being a only Dog. I would agree with that. I think if he is trained properly. He could be ok with other dogs. I have a 6 year old black lab. That he plays with. They have gotten in tussle a few times. (Prince not stopping one time. reason I think he is a Alpha) But mostly they enjoy each others company.

I do think it needs to be a family with no children. He has never gone after anyone in the house. But not being trained. I dont think I could trust him with a child. Were as they can get very wild them self's lol.


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## Karen519

*RJutten*

RJutten

Praying that Prince can find a good home, but I think having someone temp test him, would help him find one. I know the fact he bit once will be a problem.
I would contact the breeder right away to see if they can help him.
Is Prince neutered?


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## lindsey.kli

Hi Karen

I am RJ's Sister  Prince in indeed neutered. I had the Golden retriever rescue of Iowa come and see him. While he was an AMAZING dog for them the bite was the issue. We are hoping to be able to place him in the right home...but we are having a horrible time with that. We were hoping a rescue would be able to help us. I guess we are unsure what one should do when even a rescue turns ya down!  

Hoping a praying the right person comes along.


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## Dallas Gold

lindsey.kli said:


> Hi Karen
> 
> I am RJ's Sister  Prince in indeed neutered. I had the Golden retriever rescue of Iowa come and see him. While he was an AMAZING dog for them the bite was the issue. We are hoping to be able to place him in the right home...but we are having a horrible time with that. We were hoping a rescue would be able to help us. I guess we are unsure what one should do when even a rescue turns ya down!
> 
> Hoping a praying the right person comes along.


The bite history will be a big issue sad to say. I notice you are in Minnesota- if you haven't done so already I'd contact Rescue a Golden of Minnesota (RAGOM) and see if they can take him or perhaps refer you to a behaviorist. Good luck, and prayers for your family.


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## lindsey.kli

Dallas Gold said:


> The bite history will be a big issue sad to say. I notice you are in Minnesota- if you haven't done so already I'd contact Rescue a Golden of Minnesota (RAGOM) and see if they can take him or perhaps refer you to a behaviorist. Good luck, and prayers for your family.



I contacted them also and was turned down immediately.  We are really willing to do anything at this point before actually putting him down becomes an option. The only problem is my mom is getting so sick now and we are hoping to find help anywhere! 

Lindsey


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## RJutten

I am willing to help pay for training or even behaviorist training. Like my sis said though. That will not be a option for my mom to spend time on. =/ reason we are looking for a new owner for him.


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## cubbysan

Have you talked to your vet or your mom's vet? I was having some issues with a previous dog, and my vet got me in touch with the Tufts Vet School who referred me to the proper behaviorist. It was money well spent.


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## mylissyk

I am really sorry about all the loss and turmoil in your family. You have been hit with too much for too long.

Unfortunately I think you are going to face a very steep uphill battle to find a rescue or individual who would agree to take on a dog that has bitten twice. I think the only option you might have that would encourage anyone to consider him, would be to find a certified veterinarian behaviorist and have him evaluated. With that evaluation you will know what his triggers are and if he can be trained to be less reactive. But his behavior will always be a management issue no matter who he belongs too. The certified veterinarian behaviorist will be able to tell you what your options really are. Check with your vet to see if they know of one to refer you to, or check with a veterinary college in your state or neighboring state if necessary.

I truly wish you good luck in finding a good solution for Prince.


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## goldensrbest

Could it be that this dog, bit from stress,of losing his master?


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## cubbysan

My brother-in-law had a great pyrenees that was litter mates with mine, so we knew this dog pretty well and he was very gentle until he was 5 year old. At that point, my brother-in-law's father (he lived in the same house)had a disabling stroke, and when the EMT's went to go upstairs to bring his father to the hospital, the dog attacked out of protection. From that point on, the dog could not be trusted whenever an unfamiliar person came to the house.

It really makes me wonder what goes on in their heads.


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## goldensrbest

It seems to me, this dog has seen a lot of changes, so maybe it was scared, could one of you keep him?


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## Karen519

*Rj*

RJ

I am so very sorry for everything your family has been through!
I agree with Mylissyk that it will be very difficult to find someone who will adopt Buddy considering the two bite incidents, whether they were his fault or not.
I agree with what Goldensrbest said about keeping Buddy-he's been through so much, too.
The kindest thing your Mom and you can do for Buddy is to keep him. I'm sure your Mom will need his company and love with all she is going through. I'm sure you can help her.


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## Mayve

Oh man, I'm so sorry for all the changes and loss this poor boy and you and your family have been through. On one hand I agree if you or someone in your family could keep him and work with a behaviorist that may be the best option, still if and when your mom does pass that is just one more loss and upset for Prince and if you or someone in the family can't keep him, perhaps it is best to get him set up in a forever home. I personally would be hesitant to take a dog with his history for a few reasons, mainly though because I have a grandbaby due this summer and a small dog and puppy. So, understand it may be hard to find a home. If those weren't issues, and I had a behaviorist say he could be rehabilitated, I would consider it. There are more people out there like me so worth a shot


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## lindsey.kli

goldensrbest said:


> It seems to me, this dog has seen a lot of changes, so maybe it was scared, could one of you keep him?


I am at my animal limit and my brother has a son that we can't take any chances with. We would love to be able to keep him but my mothers insurance will drop her if we do. She is to sick to give him the exercise he needs.


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## lindsey.kli

Mayve said:


> Oh man, I'm so sorry for all the changes and loss this poor boy and you and your family have been through. On one hand I agree if you or someone in your family could keep him and work with a behaviorist that may be the best option, still if and when your mom does pass that is just one more loss and upset for Prince and if you or someone in the family can't keep him, perhaps it is best to get him set up in a forever home. I personally would be hesitant to take a dog with his history for a few reasons, mainly though because I have a grandbaby due this summer and a small dog and puppy. So, understand it may be hard to find a home. If those weren't issues, and I had a behaviorist say he could be rehabilitated, I would consider it. There are more people out there like me so worth a shot


That's what we are praying for! I know there is someone out there who will love Prince just as much as we do!


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## Karen519

*RJ and Lindsey*

RJ and Lindsey

The reason that rescues can't take a dog with bite history is liability-they could be sued if someone adopted him and then he bit.

Have you contacted his breeder and asked if they will take him back.


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## lindsey.kli

goldensrbest said:


> It seems to me, this dog has seen a lot of changes, so maybe it was scared, could one of you keep him?


We can not  I am at my animal limit in my town home and my brother has a son we can't take a chance with.


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## MercyMom

Hey there! {{{Welcoming hug}}} I am so sorry you and your mother are having to go through this. I can't say I blame your mother for wanting a comforting source of Golden companionship during her trying times even if it might not have been the best time. I want to see the very best for Prince. He was clearly not getting his mental needs met. I do believe there is hope for rehabbing him. Someone who has a loving firm hand could rehab him. I can see that he has unpredictable behavior, but I believe with the right training, that he could become happy again. I don't live in Iowa. I really hope that Prince can find a better life and will not need to be put to sleep.


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## Karen519

*Third tyme*

I know of a rescue in Iowa that will take dogs that have bit if they get along with other dogs.

You can call them and ask. They are in Mt. Gilead, Ohio.

Thirdtyme Rescue


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## MercyMom

lindsey.kli said:


> I contacted them also and was turned down immediately.  We are really willing to do anything at this point before actually putting him down becomes an option. The only problem is my mom is getting so sick now and we are hoping to find help anywhere!
> 
> Lindsey


Hang in there dear! God will send you the right person.


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## Karen519

*RJ and Lindsey*

RJ and Lindsey

Did you contact the breeder?

Also, contact your vet and the behaviorists and trainers near you and explain Prince's situation and see if they are willing to take him. Praying they will be.


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## MercyMom

Karen519 said:


> RJ
> 
> I am so very sorry for everything your family has been through!
> I agree with Mylissyk that it will be very difficult to find someone who will adopt Buddy considering the two bite incidents, whether they were his fault or not.
> I agree with what Goldensrbest said about keeping Buddy-he's been through so much, too.
> The kindest thing your Mom and you can do for Buddy is to keep him. I'm sure your Mom will need his company and love with all she is going through. I'm sure you can help her.


That would be so awesome if that could be worked out! Perhaps a dog behaviorist nanny! LOL!


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## MercyMom

Mayve said:


> Oh man, I'm so sorry for all the changes and loss this poor boy and you and your family have been through. On one hand I agree if you or someone in your family could keep him and work with a behaviorist that may be the best option, still if and when your mom does pass that is just one more loss and upset for Prince and if you or someone in the family can't keep him, perhaps it is best to get him set up in a forever home. I personally would be hesitant to take a dog with his history for a few reasons, mainly though because I have a grandbaby due this summer and a small dog and puppy. So, understand it may be hard to find a home. If those weren't issues, and I had a behaviorist say he could be rehabilitated, I would consider it. There are more people out there like me so worth a shot


My husband would really be mad at me for saying this, but *if* I lived in the midwest, and* if *I didn't have Mercy, and* if* I didn't have a preschool aged son, and *if *I had a bigger yard and *if *I was home more, I would take him. I would pay for all of the best animal behaviorists in the world for him.


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## MercyMom

lindsey.kli said:


> That's what we are praying for! I know there is someone out there who will love Prince just as much as we do!


I do! He looks alot like my Golden Mercy! I live too far away though to adopt him.


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## lindsey.kli

MercyMom said:


> My husband would really be mad at me for saying this, but *if* I lived in the midwest, and* if *I didn't have Mercy, and* if* I didn't have a preschool aged son, and *if *I had a bigger yard and *if *I was home more, I would take him. I would pay for all of the best animal behaviorists in the world for him.


That is so sweet! I feel the exact same way! I love this boy sooo much! He is so kind, sweet and caring. Everytime I am back home taking care of my mom I exercise him and he just loves it so much. He loves to snuggle in bed, watch tv, and just be around and watch over the house. we WILL find the right person for him. I know they are out there! <3


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## lindsey.kli

MercyMom said:


> I do! He looks alot like my Golden Mercy! I live too far away though to adopt him.


I do believe he would be best in a home without other animals. BUT he does play with many other animals. Trust me my brother and I will drive across the country for this dog. We have never had something like this happen to us! We are always taking in animals. If someone would have told us a year ago this is where our lives would be we would have laughed. Life has taken unexpected turns but we will not give up on him. I know that forever home is out there!


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## lindsey.kli

Karen519 said:


> RJ and Lindsey
> 
> Did you contact the breeder?
> 
> Also, contact your vet and the behaviorists and trainers near you and explain Prince's situation and see if they are willing to take him. Praying they will be.


We haven't been able to contact the breeder yet. We have talked to the vet and they have high hopes for Prince as well! Finding a behaviorist would be great if we were able to keep Prince but we just can't.  I don't want to confuse him anymore than he already is.


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## RJutten

Thank you for all your comments! I was actually over at moms tonight and brought my black lab Buddy Jr with. (I always do when i go over) Prince and him are buddy's although prince still has that pup in him and wants to play allot 

I do think the biting. AKA protecting his house started after my dad passed. Before that he NEVER showed any signs of grabbing anyone stranger or not. And both biting situations were him defending his home (Had we realized they were coming over early on Christmas Eve, someone would of been at the door to let them in. The reason he attacked is everyone was on other side of house and they walked in. He thought they were intruders? ) or protecting my mother. =/ 

Also talked to my mother about the breeder. She said that it was small town folk that do not breed for a living. They had to goldens that had a litter. She did however spend some time with the mother and father before getting Prince, both great friendly dogs. 

And trust me I would really like to take prince. But i have 3 dogs as it is. And a step son that is five and wild like all 5 year olds are. I don't think it would be fair to put Prince in that situation. Im hoping to find the right family or even the right guy or gal like i was 5 years ago, single and looking for a buddy to be my best friend. Prince could def be that dog for a person. He just needs the time and training!


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## OutWest

I would suggest some other things...

Talk to your local GR club, and your local AKC training club--any "dog" place with a good reputation that you can think of. Let them know that he hasn't had a fair shake and there have been some problems, but he's a great dog. Ask everyone you speak to to tell other people and pass the word. In my area alone, there are numerous dog-related groups on MeetUp, and you could post notices on there. Perhaps the overarching message is "Help give Prince a shot at the home he deserves." I think you might well pull in some people who be interested in him, and you'd need to screen them carefully. I also suggest you have a letter of agreement for anyone who wants him releasing your family from any and all liability. That way you could stipulate the conditions for getting him--no children, no other dogs (at least no small ones), a home with a yard, a commitment to ongoing training, experience with large breed dogs, pref. retrievers, etc., etc.

It sounds like you two need to be focusing on your mom right now so I don't know if this is even feasible... But I bet the effort would pay off. 

Good luck. Best wishes to you both for all you've been through, are going though, and for trying to find Prince a new home.


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## SheetsSM

I think potential adopters also need to be told to check with their insurance companies as adopting a dog with a 2x bite record will likely impact their homeowner's policy--just another aspect of full disclosure.

I do think folks need to consider that a golden protecting to the point of biting is not normal and should not just be explained away. While I agree with the aspect of bringing in a behaviorist, I think it would be setting someone (to include Prince) for failure by rationalizing his behavior.


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## mylissyk

lindsey.kli said:


> We haven't been able to contact the breeder yet. We have talked to the vet and they have high hopes for Prince as well! Finding a behaviorist would be great if we were able to keep Prince but we just can't.  I don't want to confuse him anymore than he already is.


Having a behaviorist evaluate his not for you, it is so you know what to tell any potential new owners about his triggers. Please find a behaviorist and have him evaluted as soon as possible. You can't find a new home for him if you don't know what to tell them.


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## Karen519

*Prince*

Praying the vet can come up with an idea for Prince.
I agree with Mylissyk that you need to have a behavorist evaluate Prince, before you could ever tell anyone about him.

Please keep us posted-praying for a miracle for Prince!


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## jealous1

Lindsey - I have sent you a private message (pm) w/ some contact info since you do not have 15 posts (which you need in order to pm someone).


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## lindsey.kli

Karen519 said:


> Praying the vet can come up with an idea for Prince.
> I agree with Mylissyk that you need to have a behavorist evaluate Prince, before you could ever tell anyone about him.
> 
> Please keep us posted-praying for a miracle for Prince!


I did have the Golden rescue of Iowa come and see Prince. Although they turned us down she did test his limits to see if he react a certain way. He did a fabulous job...but the bites are the issue.


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## lindsey.kli

jealous1 said:


> Lindsey - I have sent you a private message (pm) w/ some contact info since you do not have 15 posts (which you need in order to pm someone).


Sorry, I did not receive your message.


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## jealous1

e-mail address deleted


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## lindsey.kli

jealous1 said:


> try me at **************** (put all together, spread out)


Did that work?


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## ssacres

Just to let you know RAGOM is a wonderful group. They will even come pick up your dog. At that time you will sign over rights to him. They are a very dedicated group of people with so much knowledge of goldens.


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## lindsey.kli

ssacres said:


> Just to let you know RAGOM is a wonderful group. They will even come pick up your dog. At that time you will sign over rights to him. They are a very dedicated group of people with so much knowledge of goldens.


They have declined Prince without even meeting him.


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## Selli-Belle

You may want to try Best Friends animal sanctuary in Utah (I think they are in Utah). Most Golden Rescues run on a tiny budget with all the work coming from volunteers. With the economy as it is, a couple of rescues have had to close in the last few years. So they do pick and choose, since they have to rescue the animals they can adopt out. A rescue can not ethically adopt out a dog with a history of two bites. 

You also may want to look at Homeward Bound in California, they are a sanctuary for Goldens and they may be able to help you.


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## Pretzel's Mom

Try as Good as Gold in Illinois. If they cannot help maybe they point you the right direction. Also try Paws.org

Wishing you good luck.


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## cubbysan

Selli-Belle said:


> You may want to try Best Friends animal sanctuary in Utah (I think they are in Utah). Most Golden Rescues run on a tiny budget with all the work coming from volunteers. With the economy as it is, a couple of rescues have had to close in the last few years. So they do pick and choose, since they have to rescue the animals they can adopt out. A rescue can not ethically adopt out a dog with a history of two bites.
> 
> You also may want to look at Homeward Bound in California, they are a sanctuary for Goldens and they may be able to help you.


By "sanctuary" does that mean these dogs will never be placed in a home?


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## goldensrbest

Is there someone on here that can take him?


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## jealous1

I also suggested Best Friends in Utah to Lindsey as an option and gave her their website. Homeward Bound is another good option to look into. Sanctuary does not mean they will never be placed in a home, just that if they do not find one they will always have a place where they are safe.

Lindsey, could you please edit your post above to delete my e-mail address? Those members who want to get in touch with me can do so and I just don't feel comfortable leaving it up. Thanks


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## cubbysan

jealous1 said:


> Lindsey, could you please edit your post above to delete my e-mail address? Those members who want to get in touch with me can do so and I just don't feel comfortable leaving it up. Thanks


 
I deleted it for you...


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## MercyMom

lindsey.kli said:


> They have declined Prince without even meeting him.


Ohhh! I'm so sorry about this! You'll find someone soon.


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## Karen519

*Lindsey*

I am so sorry! Don't give up!


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## ssacres

lindsey.kli said:


> They have declined Prince without even meeting him.


 Did they say why? Was it the biting issue? Sorry to hear they won't take him.


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## lindsey.kli

ssacres said:


> Did they say why? Was it the biting issue? Sorry to hear they won't take him.


Yes, it was the bites. There is no excuse for his bites I know...but they were all at the door of our house. Poor prince has been through so much and loves my mom so much. I truly do believe he thinks it is his job to protect the house.


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## lindsey.kli

Selli-Belle said:


> You may want to try Best Friends animal sanctuary in Utah (I think they are in Utah). Most Golden Rescues run on a tiny budget with all the work coming from volunteers. With the economy as it is, a couple of rescues have had to close in the last few years. So they do pick and choose, since they have to rescue the animals they can adopt out. A rescue can not ethically adopt out a dog with a history of two bites.
> 
> You also may want to look at Homeward Bound in California, they are a sanctuary for Goldens and they may be able to help you.


I am starting to feel like we are running out of options. No place is willing to take a dog with two bites...and I don't want to take him to a no kill where he will be a kennel dog the rest of his life. What breaks my heart is he is SO young and SO trainable. However finding this perfect person seems like finding a needle in a hay stack!


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## ssacres

lindsey.kli said:


> Yes, it was the bites. There is no excuse for his bites I know...but they were all at the door of our house. Poor prince has been through so much and loves my mom so much. I truly do believe he thinks it is his job to protect the house.


 The poor guy has been so through so much. When I had to put my golden to sleep my lab mix got so depressed. She started losing hair and all kind of stress related issues. They grieve too. I suppose it didn't help that I was such a mess without her and cried alot. It took some time for her to feel good again. Me too. What part of Minnesota are you in. Just in case I can find someone that may want him. Of course only someone I would know and trust. Just an Idea..


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## Brave

Keep spreading the word around. Use social media to your advantage. Get his story out there. I'm sure someone will be able to take him. It might take a bit, but just keep the hope alive. 


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## lindsey.kli

ssacres said:


> The poor guy has been so through so much. When I had to put my golden to sleep my lab mix got so depressed. She started losing hair and all kind of stress related issues. They grieve too. I suppose it didn't help that I was such a mess without her and cried alot. It took some time for her to feel good again. Me too. What part of Minnesota are you in. Just in case I can find someone that may want him. Of course only someone I would know and trust. Just an Idea..


I live in St. Paul, but my mother and brother love in Des Moines Iowa. My brother and I are willing to drive anywhere for prince and pay for whatever care or training he may need. I appreciate your help! We aren't giving up yet.


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## vcm5

My heart is breaking for you, I know that this is such a hard situation.

But, and I truly hope you realize that I mean this in kindness, do you honestly feel comfortable rehoming a dog that has been known to bite people? What if you rehome him and it gets worse? What if he hurts someone else? What if he hurts a child?

You say that you have found that biting a human has been a deal breaker for almost everyone you contact. It is sad, but there is a reason for this. I'm sure Prince is a wonderful dog and you love him very much, but I would never feel comfortable rehoming him knowing for a fact that he has the potential to bite a human.


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## SheetsSM

Have you made any progress on locating a behaviorist? Does the University of Iowa have one on staff? You really need to understand the totality of Prince's issues prior to adopting him out yourself if you're unable to place him with a rescue. This is much bigger than an active dog that needs to learn basic manners.


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## lindsey.kli

vcm5 said:


> My heart is breaking for you, I know that this is such a hard situation.
> 
> But, and I truly hope you realize that I mean this in kindness, do you honestly feel comfortable rehoming a dog that has been known to bite people? What if you rehome him and it gets worse? What if he hurts someone else? What if he hurts a child?
> 
> You say that you have found that biting a human has been a deal breaker for almost everyone you contact. It is sad, but there is a reason for this. I'm sure Prince is a wonderful dog and you love him very much, but I would never feel comfortable rehoming him knowing for a fact that he has the potential to bite a human.


I completely agree. The only other option would be to put him down.


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## lindsey.kli

SheetsSM said:


> Have you made any progress on locating a behaviorist? Does the University of Iowa have one on staff? You really need to understand the totality of Prince's issues prior to adopting him out yourself if you're unable to place him with a rescue. This is much bigger than an active dog that needs to learn basic manners.


My brother is working on that right now. Once we have that done I suppose we will know a lot more on what prince is capable of. If a behaviorist says its not possible then we will do what we have to do. I would never re home him without disclosing all information about Prince.


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## goldensrbest

This is so sad, i so want this boy to have a good life, not to be put to sleep, my heart tells me he bit out of fear, being scared.


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## lindsey.kli

goldensrbest said:


> This is so sad, i so want this boy to have a good life, not to be put to sleep, my heart tells me he bit out of fear, being scared.


Me too  I know he has such potential. He takes such good care of my mom right now and I can't tell you this is breaking her heart. We have never in our lives had to deal with a dog acting out this way. We have always rescued and taken in dogs that didn't have a home my entire life. The problem is the liability of prince because my moms home owners will drop her is she keeps him. Her illness is just starting, she has no income due to working at a school and not being able to be about sick kiddos and she pays for her own health insurance. I can promise we are going to do everything in our power to find prince a forever home yet it is scary with his past. I never want anyone to ever be harmed by an animal. 

We are praying God point us in the right direction in finding that one person to believe in Prince as much as we do. Thank you for the support!


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## Karen519

*Lindsey*

Lindsey

Call a behaviorist so you can have Prince evaluated so you would have something to tell someone if they were considering him and also ask the vet for help and contact Best Friends in Kanab, Utah. If Best Friends can take him in, they would.

Here is something on Best Friends about dog biting:
Dogs and Aggression


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## goldensrbest

I feel so sad for him,and you all, my husband has stage 4 cancer, i know the worry,the treatments, i pray that this cute dog gets a good home,i have 4 now, so i know what great dogs they are.


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## Karen519

*Lindsey*

Lindsey

Praying for your Mom, Prince and you and your brother.


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## MercyMom

lindsey.kli said:


> I am starting to feel like we are running out of options. No place is willing to take a dog with two bites...and I don't want to take him to a no kill where he will be a kennel dog the rest of his life. What breaks my heart is he is SO young and SO trainable. However finding this perfect person seems like finding a needle in a hay stack!


I kinda figured that Best Friends Animal Sanctuary was out of the question even though I think it is awesome refuge for unadoptable dogs. Your beloved Prince deserves a loving home.


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## cubbysan

lindsey.kli said:


> I completely agree. The only other option would be to put him down.


Don't go there yet.

My GSD had fear aggression and yes also bit once, and would have bit again if given the oppurtunity. He was also afraid of children.

I called about 8 trainers, all told me put him down before I had children of my own - they wouldn't even look at him.

My vet gave me two names of behaviorists, and both figured out he was fear aggressive and both said they could fix him. The behaviorist we went with did miracles. He said that only 1 out of every 1000 aggressive dogs ARE NOT fixable. Even the GSD that he brought for his classes, was going to be put to sleep for aggression, and he fixed him. The previous owners had given him up because of his bites. During the training, we did use a shock collar for about 3 months - but it was a life and death situation for my dog, and it worked! He also had to train me to be more of an alpha than I was being.

In six weeks, it was like we had a new dog. I never put him in a situation to make him fail but I also never had to worry about him when family came over or with my own children.

Just make sure the behaviorist is reputable, because anybody can hang up a sign and say they are a dog trainer.


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## Karen519

*Prince*

*Let's all say a prayer for Prince today that the behaviorist goes well.*


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## Karen519

*Prince*

Praying everything went well for Prince.


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## vcm5

How is it going? Keep us posted!


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## RJutten

Sorry I have not been on to update Everyone this last week. We took prince to a reputable behaviorist on Friday. Prince did Great! We talked to her for a few mins. And then had to leave Prince there for an hour or so. They ran through all kinds of test. Having a unknown person come threw the front door and the Behaviorist would act scared and worried. He did great. She also had to other dogs and he was fine with them too. Just waiting on Her to send her total Evaluation! 

I have also noticed a BIG difference in Prince since Dixie passed away. Hes not as nervous when someone comes over. Before if there was a noise or a knock at the door Dixie would bark like a crazy woman. Now hes mellow? barley barks if the doorbell rings. I wonder if the other little dogs going crazy when they heard something got him Nervous him self. 

Will keep ya all up to date! Mom goes in for the start of weekly Chemo and daily radiation on Wed. Please pray for both Her and Prince!


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## OutWest

RJutten said:


> Sorry I have not been on to update Everyone this last week. We took prince to a reputable behaviorist on Friday. Prince did Great! We talked to her for a few mins. And then had to leave Prince there for an hour or so. They ran through all kinds of test. Having a unknown person come threw the front door and the Behaviorist would act scared and worried. He did great. She also had to other dogs and he was fine with them too. Just waiting on Her to send her total Evaluation!
> 
> I have also noticed a BIG difference in Prince since Dixie passed away. Hes not as nervous when someone comes over. Before if there was a noise or a knock at the door Dixie would bark like a crazy woman. Now hes mellow? barley barks if the doorbell rings. I wonder if the other little dogs going crazy when they heard something got him Nervous him self.
> 
> Will keep ya all up to date! Mom goes in for the start of weekly Chemo and daily radiation on Wed. Please pray for both Her and Prince!


Prayers and good thoughts being sent for your mom, Prince and you and your sister. Thanks for being "stand up" guys for the pooch.


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## Bob Dylan

I will keep your Mom in my prayers and your family. So proud of Prince lets hope he gets a forever home real soon!! You and your sister are special your mother did good!


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## MercyMom

RJutten said:


> Sorry I have not been on to update Everyone this last week. We took prince to a reputable behaviorist on Friday. Prince did Great! We talked to her for a few mins. And then had to leave Prince there for an hour or so. They ran through all kinds of test. Having a unknown person come threw the front door and the Behaviorist would act scared and worried. He did great. She also had to other dogs and he was fine with them too. Just waiting on Her to send her total Evaluation!
> 
> I have also noticed a BIG difference in Prince since Dixie passed away. Hes not as nervous when someone comes over. Before if there was a noise or a knock at the door Dixie would bark like a crazy woman. Now hes mellow? barley barks if the doorbell rings. I wonder if the other little dogs going crazy when they heard something got him Nervous him self.
> 
> Will keep ya all up to date! Mom goes in for the start of weekly Chemo and daily radiation on Wed. Please pray for both Her and Prince!


Praying for everything to work out.


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## Karen519

*Praying*



OutWest said:


> Prayers and good thoughts being sent for your mom, Prince and you and your sister. Thanks for being "stand up" guys for the pooch.


Praying for your Mom and for Prince. Keep us posted, please.


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## RJutten

Heres the evaluation!

Temperament Test
Prince-3yr-golden retriever 
Laura Uttenreuther
1-18-13

Test Results:
Appeared slightly nervous through whole test, presumably from separation anxiety or not comfortable in new environment—constant panting (the panting could’ve also been because he’s overweight).
Test 1: Sociability—dog was friendly, responded quickly and warmly to person on leash. Was fine with back stroking. Enjoyed attention and petting.
Test 2: Teeth exam—dog slightly froze when first had gums lifted but immediately relaxed and allowed it to happen all five times. Dog ignored being yelled at.
Test 3: Safe Hug—dog didn’t seem to love it, but tolerated it. Fine afterwards
Test 4: Play/Prey response—not super competitive for tug toy. Likes balls. Will give them up. Not possessive. 
Note: Owner indicated that he has a history of being possessive over certain toys and valuable items (rawhides, bones, etc.) with dogs. Not all items, nor with all dogs.
Test 5: Food and Possession Aggression—dog showed no food or possession aggression. However, he wasn’t really interested in the food or rawhide, possibly due to stress in the new environment.
Test 6: Reaction to Strangers, Guests—Dog’s body froze with medium height, slightly fast tail wag. May have let out a low growl. Definitely stared down the intruder. When the intruder stopped staring at him and relaxed her body posture, he relaxed his. I then allowed the [now] guest to have her hand sniffed. He did fine and allowed her to pet him willingly.
My observations from this encounter was that he has protective or territorial tendencies, but he has does have self-control. IE: He showed that he knows the difference between a threat and a guest.
Test 7: Dog-dog interactions—fine with other dogs.
Test 8: Child interactions—not able to test
Observations/Recommendations:
Overall Prince is a very nice, friendly dog. My recommendation for Prince is to be rehomed to a home with an experienced dog owner who can be a good strong leader, give him plenty of exercise, and give him stability. Probably wouldn’t recommend young kids due to his size and protective nature. Prince has a history of being protective, but I don’t foresee this being a problem in the correct home. The two bites he had in his past happened in times of very high stress (like the death of his owner), and both were protective/territorial in nature. With a dominant owner, more exercise, and a lower stress environment, he should have no problem being a great dog.


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## OutWest

Oh this is a great evaluation. What are your next steps? Will you try to place him yourself, or go back to the rescue societies with the eval, or what? good work, Prince!


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## njoyqd

Congratulations to Prince for his good evaluation! That will make all the difference!
Sending you and your family prayers and best wishes for comfort and peace during this stressful time. 
Add my thanks to the others for doing the right thing for Prince!
Mama should be proud of ALL her kids! She did good! 
Dale


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## Pixie

Good evaluation, seems like what you have described of him.

Hope that eases people mind and helps getting him into the right house


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## Karen519

*Rjutten*

Rjutten

Sounds like a good evaluation. What are your next steps??

Does the behaviorist know anyone or have any suggestions?


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## goldensrbest

This sounds good, i hope he finds a great home, bless you,and this boy.


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## cubbysan

goldensrbest said:


> This sounds good, i hope he finds a great home, bless you,and this boy.


Sounds like a good evaluation. Praying that Prince finds his forever home.

Also sending hugs and prayers to your mother.


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## Karen519

*Lindsey*

Praying for your Mom, Prince, you and your brother.
I'm praying that the behaviorist or your vet might know someone for Prince.
He is such a beautiful boy!

You or your brother should also put PRINCE on the Social Media Sights!


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## RJutten

just wanted to clear up a issue from the thread My sis made. I know when reading the #6 on the temper-est test it looked as if Prince was being very aggressive. When picking up prince that day, she explained each test. She also said that during test 6 she acts scared and worried when the stranger walks in the door. that is key to that test. Her reaction was that a stranger someone dangerous walking in. Reason for prince tensing up =)

Also found out that the Breeder that they got Prince from was a family that had to goldens that had puppy's. Not professional breeders from the convo i had with my mom.


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## Jersey's Mom

I'm really glad you got Prince to a behaviorist... but I do see a couple issues in the assessment that are possibly being overlooked. 

1. The dog was obviously ill-at-ease throughout. I doubt the constant panting was due simply to being overweight unless he is massively massively obese. Dogs with a little extra pudge do stop panting.

2. He didn't show any protective tendencies over food or toys/rawhides. Apparently you guys have seen him protective over rawhides. The fact that he was not feeling "at home" in the environment, and therefore not feeling "ownership" over the items presented (or even much interest, in the behaviorist's own words) skews his behavior on these tests. If he were at home, comfortable, and with "his" items, would he have reacted the same? I have to assume that the answer, at least at sometimes, is no. Because you've already seen it. 

3. Despite being uncomfortable in the environment and not seeming to stake any ownership over it, he still responded "protectively" to the stranger. I'm not sure that protective or territorial is the right term because there was nothing for him to protect and he had not claimed the environment as "his" territory. This wasn't his home. It wasn't his beloved owner/family standing behind him. This seems much more likely to be fear/anxiety... which is the cause of a great many dog bites (including, quite possibly, the two you've already seen with Prince). If Prince assumes "stranger danger," it's a problem... not something to post a smiley face about. (That's not an attack, just a call to see this as something more serious)

4. I know you don't want to hear this, but Prince is a dangerous dog. He had 2 serious bite incidents. I know part of you is thinking, "but only 2 incidents in 3 years isn't much," but it's the inconsistency of his behavior that can make him _more_ dangerous, rather than _less_. If you have a dog that lashes out at unfamiliar people and/or dogs every time or protects his food/possessions every time... you're constantly on guard. You arrange his world in such a way as to keep him from being triggered and you never allow yourself to slip in that regard. When you have a dog, like Prince, who is okay most of the time but lashes out occasionally and unpredictably, he becomes a much harder dog to manage and you put the new owners in a situation where they may mistakenly give him just a little too much freedom because he's been so good for so long, and someone gets seriously injured... and Prince likely gets put down. That's tragic for everyone but especially for poor Prince.

Now, I'm not saying any of this to attack you or to imply that Prince is a "bad" dog who is not deserving of a second chance. It's only to point out some worries and perhaps some gaps in the temperament testing that could lead to problems down the road to rehoming him. I can't tell you the definite "right" answers, only what I would do if this dog were a part of my family. First, I would schedule a follow up appointment with a behaviorist to have him evaluated in his own home. It matters much more how he acts in his own environment than it does how he acts in an unfamiliar and unsettling one. Then I would take all that information from both assessments and get in touch with some of the rescues suggested in your sister's thread... the rescues that take on harder behavioral cases and have the resources/trainers to help Prince be all the golden he can be. I do not believe that this is a case where you guys should go it alone to screen homes for him. It's too risky for you. It's too risky for the new owners. And perhaps most importantly, it's too risky for Prince. This is not a situation that is going to be resolved by finding a new family on Craig's List. The type of people you need to help him don't look for dogs there. And as much as you love him and as dedicated as you are... you simply don't have the experience needed to properly screen the homes. I know it is discouraging that so many rescues have already said no. Most don't take on a dog with a bite history... but some do. And that's what you need to find. That's the only shot Prince really has.

I'm so sorry that your family has been through so much and that you are having to deal with giving up Prince on top of it all. Good luck.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## GoldensGirl

The closed thread included posts from a couple of GRF members who were interested in Prince and felt competent to provide the kind of home he needs. Perhaps it is worth following up with them? Remember that there were also offers to help with transporting him, if need be.

Good luck!


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## mylissyk

Jersey's Mom made some good points. I did wonder why the behaviorist didn't evaluate him in his own home.


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## RJutten

Jersey's Mom said:


> I'
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Despite being uncomfortable in the environment and not seeming to stake any ownership over it, he still responded "protectively" to the stranger. I'm not sure that protective or territorial is the right term because there was nothing for him to protect and he had not claimed the environment as "his" territory. This wasn't his home. It wasn't his beloved owner/family standing behind him. This seems much more likely to be fear/anxiety... which is the cause of a great many dog bites (including, quite possibly, the two you've already seen with Prince). If Prince assumes "stranger danger," it's a problem... not something to post a smiley face about. (That's not an attack, just a call to see this as something more serious)


 Is there anything Positive about the way Prince performed in the test you would like to point out? As for the test being at the behaviorist house, shes a professional. So I trust her judgement. 

You also say that Prince has "fear/anxiety" and was out of his element. panting and what not. You may be correct. So if he has a higher chance of biting someone whens hes stressing or even has fear. Then wouldn't the test be better at a strangers house were both fear/anxiety were more present? 

As for the stranger danger? The behaviorist was acting and sounding scared when the stranger walked in the door for the test. Personally I think many MANY dogs would react the same way. he stiffened up a bit and MAY of growled. Did not lung forward or go ballistic. Yet held his ground until the stranger was approached by the behaviorist and welcomed into the home. Prince was then calm when the chance of danger was gone.



and your other comment "not something to post a smiley face about. (That's not an attack, just a call to see this as something more serious)" 
That was rude...


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## cubbysan

I agree with Jersey's Mom. 

I had a fear aggressive dog, and I went to two behaviorists - one came to my house and the other I went to his. Both came up with the same "diagnosis" fear aggression, but the one that was at my house, was able to get my dog to try to attack him, he got to see my dog react and what he reacted to. The behaviorist that I went to his house, did not see that part of my dog. I never thought that through before, because I ended up working with the one that came to my house, and all training was done at my house and in my neighborhood.


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## RJutten

Fear/anxiety = you have more of this in a home you have never been too, and people that you have never seen.

Being protective of a home or a owner is a totally different thing.

the behaviorist said "Prince has a history of being protective" 

As for training being done at your place Cubbysan. I agree that is what needs to happen for Prince. ONce we find him a new home. When talking to the behaviorist we told here we were willing to pay for training for Prince, She said that it would be much better to have him trained at his new home rather then at my moms.


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## BajaOklahoma

RJutten - this has got to be so difficult for you and your sister. And it is very hard to hear others say negative things when you are trying your best. Just try to remember that if you ask 100 people for their opinion, you will get 100 different answers. The thing is, all of the people here really do want to help all three of you.
When I read posts, I have to try to remember that I am only imaging the "tone of voice" used as they were writing it. 
And it is extremely difficult to be objective about what is going on your own life. It doesn't help you all if everyone ignores issues. There may be something you hadn't thought of or can easily deal with once you are aware of it.

What about going ahead and starting the training now? As someone "sort of" in the education field (I work at a school, but not a teacher), I've learned that the earlier the intervention, the better. In fact, I would think doing the training now and repeating it in the new house could only help yur dog feel more comfortable in the new place.

Again best wishes and thank you for helping this Golden to become the best he can be.


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## Karen519

*Rj*



BajaOklahoma said:


> RJutten - this has got to be so difficult for you and your sister. And it is very hard to hear others say negative things when you are trying your best. Just try to remember that if you ask 100 people for their opinion, you will get 100 different answers. The thing is, all of the people here really do want to help all three of you.
> When I read posts, I have to try to remember that I am only imaging the "tone of voice" used as they were writing it.
> And it is extremely difficult to be objective about what is going on your own life. It doesn't help you all if everyone ignores issues. There may be something you hadn't thought of or can easily deal with once you are aware of it.
> 
> What about going ahead and starting the training now? As someone "sort of" in the education field (I work at a school, but not a teacher), I've learned that the earlier the intervention, the better. In fact, I would think doing the training now and repeating it in the new house could only help yur dog feel more comfortable in the new place.
> 
> Again best wishes and thank you for helping this Golden to become the best he can be.


RJ: I agree with what Baja said. We all want what is best for Prince.
Did you contact the people on here in Lindsey's thread that expressed an interest in Prince?
Did you contact the Home for Life sanctuary?
Does the behaviorist or vet know of any people that might adopt Prince?
Have you posted him on Social media?


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## Jersey's Mom

RJutten said:


> Is there anything Positive about the way Prince performed in the test you would like to point out? As for the test being at the behaviorist house, shes a professional. So I trust her judgement.
> 
> You also say that Prince has "fear/anxiety" and was out of his element. panting and what not. You may be correct. So if he has a higher chance of biting someone whens hes stressing or even has fear. Then wouldn't the test be better at a strangers house were both fear/anxiety were more present?
> 
> As for the stranger danger? The behaviorist was acting and sounding scared when the stranger walked in the door for the test. Personally I think many MANY dogs would react the same way. he stiffened up a bit and MAY of growled. Did not lung forward or go ballistic. Yet held his ground until the stranger was approached by the behaviorist and welcomed into the home. Prince was then calm when the chance of danger was gone.
> 
> 
> 
> and your other comment "not something to post a smiley face about. (That's not an attack, just a call to see this as something more serious)"
> That was rude...


You've already focused on the positives from this evaluation. I'm merely pointing out some of the concerns it raises and I am doing so to help Prince, not to attack you. Ignoring the issues or glossing over them isn't doing Prince any favors. I wasn't being rude... I was being blunt. If you want a complete picture of what is behind the problems Prince has had, you will get more information from a second assessment in the home. I do not know if Prince was anxious, fearful, or just mildly stressed by the new environment -- I wasn't there. That's why I chose to use the term "ill-at-ease." A dog who continuously pants through a 30-60 minute evaluation (or however long it was), is not a dog who ever relaxed in the environment. It's also not a dog who appeared to stake any sort of claim in either the environment or the objects presented. If protectiveness of the home and resource guarding are the main issues you are trying to evaluate and address, this doesn't seem to have been the most conducive environment in which to assess those tendencies. I never knocked the behaviorist and I never suggested he or she wasn't a professional... I merely made a suggestion on what a "next step" might be in trying to give Prince the best shot at getting another chance with another family. 

Acting scared and truly being scared are two very different things. Dogs absolutely know the difference. So Prince's reaction to the stranger in the presence of a person he had no connection to who was pretending to be scared, and in a home that he took no interest in claiming is a very very serious one. That freezing, staring and possibly growling... that's a warning that an attack is next. How long did they push that reaction? Would he have lunged if they kept it up and didn't change the tone of the interaction? Would he have been quicker to react in his own home with his own family to "protect?" These are the answers that are missing from this assessment... and these are the bits of information that are going to be very important to have when placing him.

The bottom line is that this is a dog with a multiple bite history. Placing him yourself leaves you vulnerable to legal recourse if he bites again.... especially if you present him to a family with this evaluation and imply in any way that this is not a very very serious issue. His problems aren't just going to disappear in a new home... and the stress of losing his family may actually make him more reactive. Very few rescues are going to consider taking him due to their own liability... but there are some out there that may be willing and able to help. People have recommended a couple (mostly in your sister's thread). Hopefully you've contacted them. Placing Prince in a home or with a rescue is going to take serious work. You need to exhaust every opportunity to pinpoint the issues. You need to start training now. You need to get him proper exercise. You need to, at the very least, start to get the situation under control. Otherwise the odds against him are just too steep. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Dancer

This poor guy has sure been through an awful lot in his short life. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I did follow the other one (the one that was closed). I admire you and your sister for seeing that he needs a different situation. I admire you for trying to do what's best for Prince and find him an experienced home. I admire that you see there is an issue here, and that you sought out a behaviourist to try to arm yourselves with more information. I think the fact that there is a problem with his behaviour is something you've acknowledged, so I don't think that needs to be called into question at all. 

I think we should focus on finding a solution for Prince. I think that his guardians are well aware of his issues- they're the only ones here who've actually seen him in action, after all. 

And I'm sorry if I've missed it, but I'm very curious to know if you've followed up with those couple of members on here that were possibly interested in taking him on?


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## Jersey's Mom

Dancer said:


> This poor guy has sure been through an awful lot in his short life. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but I did follow the other one (the one that was closed). I admire you and your sister for seeing that he needs a different situation. I admire you for trying to do what's best for Prince and find him an experienced home. I admire that you see there is an issue here, and that you sought out a behaviourist to try to arm yourselves with more information. I think the fact that there is a problem with his behaviour is something you've acknowledged, so I don't think that needs to be called into question at all.
> 
> I think we should focus on finding a solution for Prince. I think that his guardians are well aware of his issues- they're the only ones here who've actually seen him in action, after all.
> 
> And I'm sorry if I've missed it, but I'm very curious to know if you've followed up with those couple of members on here that were possibly interested in taking him on?


But that's just it. We are focusing on finding a solution for Prince and setting him up to be successful in his new life. If that single assessment was completely enough, the owners would have been able to email or fax it along to a rescue and Prince would be on his way to a foster home. It's unfortunate, but true, that it seems more needs to be done. The rescues may very well see the same holes in this evaluation as I do -- and filling those in may help. 

Why is it so insulting to people that someone would take the time to make suggestions for further steps to help Prince? I didn't understand it in the closed thread and I don't understand it here. Yes, my posts (and that of some others) do have more focus on Prince's issues.... by necessity. His issues are both a major contributing factor to why he needs a new home and his biggest obstacle in finding one. I'm all for cheerleading and moral support, but the solution in this case isn't going to be found if everyone just says "Prince is a great dog, hope he finds a great home," and goes back on their merry way.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Dancer

I think that no one, particularly his guardians, could/should take issue with constructive suggestions. They clearly love him and are trying to do the best they can by him. However, from what I've seen, they appear to be feeling a bit attacked. This is not conducive to assisting with finding a solution for Prince. 

It's easy to take things personally in sensitive situations like this. It's also easy to misconstrue people's 'tone' when your reading something. Lets all try to be sensitive to that. I think it would be a real shame if this dog's owners ( and others for that matter) stopped looking to this forum for information and advice. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## nolefan

Jersey's Mom said:


> .....
> 
> 4. I know you don't want to hear this, but Prince is a dangerous dog. He had 2 serious bite incidents. I know part of you is thinking, "but only 2 incidents in 3 years isn't much," but it's the inconsistency of his behavior that can make him _more_ dangerous, rather than _less_. If you have a dog that lashes out at unfamiliar people and/or dogs every time or protects his food/possessions every time... you're constantly on guard. You arrange his world in such a way as to keep him from being triggered and you never allow yourself to slip in that regard. When you have a dog, like Prince, who is okay most of the time but lashes out occasionally and unpredictably, he becomes a much harder dog to manage and you put the new owners in a situation where they may mistakenly give him just a little too much freedom because he's been so good for so long, and someone gets seriously injured... and Prince likely gets put down. That's tragic for everyone but especially for poor Prince.
> .....
> 
> ..... It matters much more how he acts in his own environment than it does how he acts in an unfamiliar and unsettling one. Then I would take all that information from both assessments and get in touch with some of the rescues suggested in your sister's thread... the rescues that take on harder behavioral cases and have the resources/trainers to help Prince be all the golden he can be. I do not believe that this is a case where you guys should go it alone to screen homes for him. It's too risky for you. It's too risky for the new owners. And perhaps most importantly, it's too risky for Prince. This is not a situation that is going to be resolved by finding a new family on Craig's List. The type of people you need to help him don't look for dogs there. And as much as you love him and as dedicated as you are... you simply don't have the experience needed to properly screen the homes. I know it is discouraging that so many rescues have already said no. Most don't take on a dog with a bite history... but some do. And that's what you need to find. That's the only shot Prince really has.
> 
> I'm so sorry that your family has been through so much and that you are having to deal with giving up Prince on top of it all. Good luck.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz



Julie, we've never met, but your common sense makes me wish I could meet you. I am very sorry for all that the family has been through also and I admire the sense of responsibility and dedication that they are showing to Prince. I wish that there was an easy answer to this. But clearly there is not... 

I have read through these threads and have tried to restrain myself from commenting because I am not someone with rescue experience. I do have to comment at this point because I am someone with experience in the agony of dealing with a Golden who has fear agression problems and who has bitten someone. NO ONE on this forum wants to see a dog euthanized, if there are any rescues out there who specialize in hard cases, then Prince deserves a chance to be saved by these experienced people.

Although it has been mentioned over and over how careful the family needs to be that a mistake with their decision doesn't leave them open to being legally and financially responsible down the road, I would like to mention the one thing that I have seen missing from this conversation. I doubt anyone has wanted to go down this road because the family has clearly been through a lot of emotional distress but I feel it is important to make this point.

If you have a dog who for WHATEVER reason has bitten a person on more than one occasion, then you are aware that he is probably going to bite someone else again in the future if any mistakes are ever made in his management. I love dogs, we all do or we wouldn't be here, but it seems like the most important issue is being missed. Prince is not more important than a human beings safety. 

You have a moral obligation not to put this dog in a situation where he is handled by anyone without pretty much professional experience with aggressive dogs. No one likes to mention morals too much but there is no other way to frame this. A dog bite to the face of a person can do an incredible amount of damage. I have a family member who has been hospitalized since New Years Eve because of the extreme damage that was done to her face and mouth from a dog bite. What if Prince's next victim is a child? Could you seriously look at yourself in the mirror knowing a child was hospitalized because you were to weak to make the hard choices for Prince. That was the deciding factor in my life.... I feel a moral obligation for the safety of any child who comes into my house, their parents trust me, I couldn't live with myself if I made a small mistake in managing my dog and he bit a child. It was one of the most difficult things I have ever been through, but after consulting with a behaviorist, my beloved dog went back to live with his breeder with the understanding that he is managed on acreage with no contact with children.

Please do your best for Prince, contact rescues that specialize in serious, last stop cases. But don't make the mistake of putting this dog in the hands of any person or family who isn't professionally equipped to deal with the seriousness of this issue. Human safety is the top priority. You have a moral obligation not to pass on a time bomb to someone else.


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## maizy's mom

I am sorry you are going through such a difficult time. I do not have any experience with rehabing dogs, as Maizy is our first. But I can and will keep Prince, you and your family in my prayers. Best of luck!


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## lindsey.kli

Hey guys. Prince is on a waiting list for a foster home as we don't want him to have to stay kenneled and will keep him until the correct place is found. Out side of all of that we have had a wonderful week together. We have been playing in the snow non stop, kissing and loving on each other all week. . Like I ALWAYS say thank you for your help, suggestions. And concerns. They have all helped. 

While some suggestions are a bit to negative for us...please trust us when we say we will not put prince into the arms of the wrong person. We from this point on do not need anymore "negative" suggestions in he situation we are in. And I kindly ask that if you have something to say that we may get upset about just keep it to your self. We are strong, smart adults and we will do as we see fit for Prince. After all he is our loving baby. 

We are not in this forum often as some people's opinions are truly sometime hurtful to how we feel. We have thought of all negative and positive things about our situation. We have fostered, adopted and helped MANY dogs. We do have some sense of mind when it comes to animals. 

Right now prince is snuggled up next to me and we are going to watch a movie. It is freezing here so he is a wonderful heating blanket.  have a blessed weekend everyone!!


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## Bentleysmom

Lindsey, I haven't read all the recent comments here because I can't take it when people get on a high horse and want to preach their sermon without taking feelings into account. I had my fill of their nasty comments in your first thread. You know there are many of us on the forum that are pulling for you and especially Prince.

I have a feeling that some/most of the people that are giving you a hard time have probably never rescued a dog. Too bad for them. I have and I have watched the miracles happen when love, time, and patience are applied. It's a shame that people feel the need to beat up on someone just to feel superior. That is NOT what this forum is supposed to be about. I will apologize for them because there's no way they will do it themselves. 

Please just skip over holier than thou posts. I hope you keep us updated, we really do care about Prince and I am very thankful that he has you and your brother in his corner ♥


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## lindsey.kli

Bentleysmom said:


> Lindsey, I haven't read all the recent comments here because I can't take it when people get on a high horse and want to preach their sermon without taking feelings into account. I had my fill of their nasty comments in your first thread. You know there are many of us on the forum that are pulling for you and especially Prince.
> 
> I have a feeling that some/most of the people that are giving you a hard time have probably never rescued a dog. Too bad for them. I have and I have watched the miracles happen when love, time, and patience are applied. It's a shame that people feel the need to beat up on someone just to feel superior. That is NOT what this forum is supposed to be about. I will apologize for them because there's no way they will do it themselves.
> 
> Please just skip over holier than thou posts. I hope you keep us updated, we really do care about Prince and I am very thankful that he has you and your brother in his corner ♥


Thank you so much you have been so sweet and kind to us. We do have such high hopes and I do know God will point us in the right direction. We are strong people we can take the negative.. but over and over it does hurt our feelings regardless of what some may think. The more time I spend with Prince the more I love him. 

THANK YOU for being positive during such a negative time in our lives. Every bit helps. the POSITIVE advice has been wonderful! <3


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## goldensrbest

lindsey.kli said:


> Thank you so much you have been so sweet and kind to us. We do have such high hopes and I do know God will point us in the right direction. We are strong people we can take the negative.. but over and over it does hurt our feelings regardless of what some may think. The more time I spend with Prince the more I love him.
> 
> THANK YOU for being positive during such a negative time in our lives. Every bit helps. the POSITIVE advice has been wonderful! <3


 I so agree with this.


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## goldensrbest

Bentleysmom said:


> Lindsey, I haven't read all the recent comments here because I can't take it when people get on a high horse and want to preach their sermon without taking feelings into account. I had my fill of their nasty comments in your first thread. You know there are many of us on the forum that are pulling for you and especially Prince.
> 
> I have a feeling that some/most of the people that are giving you a hard time have probably never rescued a dog. Too bad for them. I have and I have watched the miracles happen when love, time, and patience are applied. It's a shame that people feel the need to beat up on someone just to feel superior. That is NOT what this forum is supposed to be about. I will apologize for them because there's no way they will do it themselves.
> 
> Please just skip over holier than thou posts. I hope you keep us updated, we really do care about Prince and I am very thankful that he has you and your brother in his corner ♥


 Right on ,joyce, tired of the people,thinking they know it all.


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## nolefan

Ever since I began posting on this forum, I have made every effort to speak in a respectful tone to everyone, every time, no matter how I felt about their actions or their opinions. Offering a differing opinion doesn't mean someone is being rude. I am sad and frustrated that long time forum members who cared enough to actually put themselves out there and express a differing and possibly unpopular point of view were treated so dismissively and rudely in multiple threads not only by a new member who showed up here two weeks ago asking for advice but also by members who have been here long enough to know better. These expert members (for the record, I am not including myself here) donate their time and knowledge to this forum on a regular basis, not because they "need to get a life" as Lindsey suggested, but because they truly care about dogs and want to help people and they have been supporting us here at all hours of the day, year after year, and for that I am truly grateful.

I read through both this thread and the original closed thread carefully to try and figure out what the accusations of "negative" , "nasty" , "high horse" and "holier than thou" are based on. What I saw was a large group of people giving the OPs mostly total agreement and "atta boys" for their stories and actions, which appeared to be what was wanted since it reinforced their feelings that they are doing everything right and had nothing to re-think. There was positive response by a lot of people, with varying amounts of rescue experience, with kind hearts who showed compassion for the dog and everyone involved. 

A smaller group of people who also showed compassion for the people as well as the dog, asked questions and raised very reasonable concerns based on their own life experiences and yes, expertise. The majority of this group who had questions and differing opinions have decades of dog experience professionally as well as training and hands on experience with rescue. Everyone who took time to respond was trying to give useful and helpful input based on their knowledge. This is is how it was met: 

"While everyone's opinions are great we are looking at all aspects. We aren't idiots. I am not really looking for anyone's advice anymore. Thanks for the input...I'm am particularly done with this web site."

No one on this forum called anyone an idiot. When questions were asked as to why the family members who love Prince wouldn't be taking him in, we were told that there was no room, although they did have room for the pug, Duke, and also this red flag:



lindsey.kli said:


> ..... my brother has a son that we can't take any chances with. ......


Anyone who wants to accuse me of being "Holier than Thou" for mentioning ethics or morals may go right ahead, but this comment from the OP pretty perfectly sums up why I'm so concerned. ...Not going to take a chance with a child in your own family, but quite willing to send this dog out into the world to live in someone else's neighborhood where it's pretty much guaranteed that during the next 10 years he will certainly end up having contact at some point with other people's kids and other unsuspecting people. 

This dog's bites were not revealed in the original threads until people asked pointed questions about why rescues were turning him down, then the circumstances were minimized as though a Golden Retriever biting a child or any other person who he knows is understandable protective behavior, they made the extremely questionable decision to post this dog on Craig's List, and yet Lindsey continues to insist that they are so experienced with rescue dogs that they were qualified to screen potential homes themselves. However, this is the same source of judgement that decided having this dog out in the house with 25 people expected for a holiday family gathering was sound and safe management when one protective bite had already occurred. All suggestions for the rescue in Utah which might provide Prince with a life long home where he won't come into contact with the general public have been met with silence. The offers from forum members who might be knowledgeable and in a position to help were met with silence. It all adds up to simply confirm that my read on this situation is correct. 

My beloved first dog, Wesley, was a rehome/rescue dog. I took it on trust that the original home was being honest with me and I took him in without a second thought that there could be potentially greater than average risk with his temperament. The story in these threads is the poster child for the reason that so many people are hesitant to rescue any dog. The average family can't trust that the original owner isn't trying to rehome a dog that they are well aware is potentially very dangerous simply because they either can not or will not deal with the problem.

I pray to God that no child or anyone else is ever bitten by this dog again, but I sure don't have much confidence about the outcome given the way this has been handled so far.



__________________


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## lindsey.kli

nolefan said:


> Ever since I began posting on this forum, I have made every effort to speak in a respectful tone to everyone, every time, no matter how I felt about their actions or their opinions. Offering a differing opinion doesn't mean someone is being rude. I am sad and frustrated that long time forum members who cared enough to actually put themselves out there and express a differing and possibly unpopular point of view were treated so dismissively and rudely in multiple threads not only by a new member who showed up here two weeks ago asking for advice but also by members who have been here long enough to know better. These expert members (for the record, I am not including myself here) donate their time and knowledge to this forum on a regular basis, not because they "need to get a life" as Lindsey suggested, but because they truly care about dogs and want to help people and they have been supporting us here at all hours of the day, year after year, and for that I am truly grateful.
> 
> I read through both this thread and the original closed thread carefully to try and figure out what the accusations of "negative" , "nasty" , "high horse" and "holier than thou" are based on. What I saw was a large group of people giving the OPs mostly total agreement and "atta boys" for their stories and actions, which appeared to be what was wanted since it reinforced their feelings that they are doing everything right and had nothing to re-think. There was positive response by a lot of people, with varying amounts of rescue experience, with kind hearts who showed compassion for the dog and everyone involved.
> 
> A smaller group of people who also showed compassion for the people as well as the dog, asked questions and raised very reasonable concerns based on their own life experiences and yes, expertise. The majority of this group who had questions and differing opinions have decades of dog experience professionally as well as training and hands on experience with rescue. Everyone who took time to respond was trying to give useful and helpful input based on their knowledge. This is is how it was met:
> 
> "While everyone's opinions are great we are looking at all aspects. We aren't idiots. I am not really looking for anyone's advice anymore. Thanks for the input...I'm am particularly done with this web site."
> 
> No one on this forum called anyone an idiot. When questions were asked as to why the family members who love Prince wouldn't be taking him in, we were told that there was no room, although they did have room for the pug, Duke, and also this red flag:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who wants to accuse me of being "Holier than Thou" for mentioning ethics or morals may go right ahead, but this comment from the OP pretty perfectly sums up why I'm so concerned. ...Not going to take a chance with a child in your own family, but quite willing to send this dog out into the world to live in someone else's neighborhood where it's pretty much guaranteed that during the next 10 years he will certainly end up having contact at some point with other people's kids and other unsuspecting people.
> 
> This dog's bites were not revealed in the original threads until people asked pointed questions about why rescues were turning him down, then the circumstances were minimized as though a Golden Retriever biting a child or any other person who he knows is understandable protective behavior, they made the extremely questionable decision to post this dog on Craig's List, and yet Lindsey continues to insist that they are so experienced with rescue dogs that they were qualified to screen potential homes themselves. However, this is the same source of judgement that decided having this dog out in the house with 25 people expected for a holiday family gathering was sound and safe management when one protective bite had already occurred. All suggestions for the rescue in Utah which might provide Prince with a life long home where he won't come into contact with the general public have been met with silence. The offers from forum members who might be knowledgeable and in a position to help were met with silence. It all adds up to simply confirm that my read on this situation is correct.
> 
> My beloved first dog, Wesley, was a rehome/rescue dog. I took it on trust that the original home was being honest with me and I took him in without a second thought that there could be potentially greater than average risk with his temperament. The story in these threads is the poster child for the reason that so many people are hesitant to rescue any dog. The average family can't trust that the original owner isn't trying to rehome a dog that they are well aware is potentially very dangerous simply because they either can not or will not deal with the problem.
> 
> I pray to God that no child or anyone else is ever bitten by this dog again, but I sure don't have much confidence about the outcome given the way this has been handled so far.
> 
> 
> 
> __________________


Oh I guess you forgot my dad died..and my mom has cancer. Thanks.


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## nolefan

lindsey.kli said:


> Oh I guess you forgot my dad died..and my mom has cancer. Thanks.


What are you talking about? Every single person who has responded to any of your threads expressed their sadness at your loss. Every single person who responded has expressed sadness for Prince who clearly has fear aggression which most likely has genetic causes. Not one single person has blamed your mother or any other person for his issues. 

What does this have to do with the facts that this dog has bitten two people, including a child and is a significant risk to bite someone again in the future?


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## lindsey.kli

nolefan said:


> Ever since I began posting on this forum, I have made every effort to speak in a respectful tone to everyone, every time, no matter how I felt about their actions or their opinions. Offering a differing opinion doesn't mean someone is being rude. I am sad and frustrated that long time forum members who cared enough to actually put themselves out there and express a differing and possibly unpopular point of view were treated so dismissively and rudely in multiple threads not only by a new member who showed up here two weeks ago asking for advice but also by members who have been here long enough to know better. These expert members (for the record, I am not including myself here) donate their time and knowledge to this forum on a regular basis, not because they "need to get a life" as Lindsey suggested, but because they truly care about dogs and want to help people and they have been supporting us here at all hours of the day, year after year, and for that I am truly grateful.
> 
> I read through both this thread and the original closed thread carefully to try and figure out what the accusations of "negative" , "nasty" , "high horse" and "holier than thou" are based on. What I saw was a large group of people giving the OPs mostly total agreement and "atta boys" for their stories and actions, which appeared to be what was wanted since it reinforced their feelings that they are doing everything right and had nothing to re-think. There was positive response by a lot of people, with varying amounts of rescue experience, with kind hearts who showed compassion for the dog and everyone involved.
> 
> A smaller group of people who also showed compassion for the people as well as the dog, asked questions and raised very reasonable concerns based on their own life experiences and yes, expertise. The majority of this group who had questions and differing opinions have decades of dog experience professionally as well as training and hands on experience with rescue. Everyone who took time to respond was trying to give useful and helpful input based on their knowledge. This is is how it was met:
> 
> "While everyone's opinions are great we are looking at all aspects. We aren't idiots. I am not really looking for anyone's advice anymore. Thanks for the input...I'm am particularly done with this web site."
> 
> No one on this forum called anyone an idiot. When questions were asked as to why the family members who love Prince wouldn't be taking him in, we were told that there was no room, although they did have room for the pug, Duke, and also this red flag:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone who wants to accuse me of being "Holier than Thou" for mentioning ethics or morals may go right ahead, but this comment from the OP pretty perfectly sums up why I'm so concerned. ...Not going to take a chance with a child in your own family, but quite willing to send this dog out into the world to live in someone else's neighborhood where it's pretty much guaranteed that during the next 10 years he will certainly end up having contact at some point with other people's kids and other unsuspecting people.
> 
> This dog's bites were not revealed in the original threads until people asked pointed questions about why rescues were turning him down, then the circumstances were minimized as though a Golden Retriever biting a child or any other person who he knows is understandable protective behavior, they made the extremely questionable decision to post this dog on Craig's List, and yet Lindsey continues to insist that they are so experienced with rescue dogs that they were qualified to screen potential homes themselves. However, this is the same source of judgement that decided having this dog out in the house with 25 people expected for a holiday family gathering was sound and safe management when one protective bite had already occurred. All suggestions for the rescue in Utah which might provide Prince with a life long home where he won't come into contact with the general public have been met with silence.  The offers from forum members who might be knowledgeable and in a position to help were met with silence. It all adds up to simply confirm that my read on this situation is correct.
> 
> My beloved first dog, Wesley, was a rehome/rescue dog. I took it on trust that the original home was being honest with me and I took him in without a second thought that there could be potentially greater than average risk with his temperament. The story in these threads is the poster child for the reason that so many people are hesitant to rescue any dog. The average family can't trust that the original owner isn't trying to rehome a dog that they are well aware is potentially very dangerous simply because they either can not or will not deal with the problem.
> 
> I pray to God that no child or anyone else is ever bitten by this dog again, but I sure don't have much confidence about the outcome given the way this has been handled so far.
> 
> 
> 
> __________________



I'm actually not even taking the time to read through all of this. The fact that you have time to pick through this thread so thoroughly speaks for it self. Your "authority" as a long standing member doesn't mean much to me. My opinions are no less than yours. I don't have the need to explain every little thing on here as when it comes to homing we will OBVIOUSLY do so. Please don't concern your so much with what we are doing. I would be crazy to think that you are being polite at all in this thread. Please keep it to your self. I've asked novel enough that we no longer would like to discuss others concerns. We have heard them loud and clear. Are you hearing me?


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## lindsey.kli

nolefan said:


> What are you talking about? Every single person who has responded to any of your threads expressed their sadness at your loss. Every single person who responded has expressed sadness for Prince who clearly has fear aggression which most likely has genetic causes. Not one single person has blamed your mother or any other person for his issues.
> 
> What does this have to do with the facts that this dog has bitten two people, including a child and is a significant risk to bite someone again in the future?


You stated we had other dogs...what concern is that to you?!? Our lives were much different a year ago. I've had enough.


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## HiTideGoldens

I am closing this thread as it has gotten very out of hand very quickly. When posting, please remember the following:

*
7. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will refrain from assassinating the character of another. – * In heated discussion there is a tendency to malign the character of an opponent. Care must be taken in the wording of all statements of denigration to not single out any individual. An example is instead of saying “You are a liar” (an unacceptable accusation) nearly the same sentiment can be expressed as, “I believe you are mistaken”. Though the foregoing appears to be almost identical in the stated sentiment there is one major difference, the former attacks another’s character of honesty whereas the latter refers to a possible error having been made… this is a BIG distinction in any argument. Also refer to the larger group rather than a single individual when trying to make statements of a derogatory nature. Example: “You are a reckless breeder for not obtaining health certifications before breeding” (this being an example of an unacceptable attack on someone’s character) rather instead use “I feel all breeders who breed their dogs without obtaining health certifications prior is being reckless”. Again, the difference in meaning might seem non-existent but the earlier statement directly attacks a specific individual’s character whereas the latter is an expression of attitude toward a whole class, yet in effect making it understood that “if the shoe fits…” 

and

*
13. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will treat other members with respect.* The Golden Retriever Forum relies on its members to self-monitor in terms of rudeness that is just gratuitous. It is one thing to focus passionately on a topic; it is another thing to call someone an offensive name or to be condescending. We hold golden temperaments on high, so let's see our members be friendly to one another as well, even when disagreements occur. You may respectfully attack a member’s point of view but do not attack the member personally, or be excessively rude in your responses. If a thread starts getting heated, take it to a mod, NOT PUBLIC. Those who do not follow this can be warned, suspended or banned.

These rules can and WILL be enforced. Anyone with any questions feel free to PM me or any other mod.


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