# What is an aversive?



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I think of an aversive as anything the dog will work to avoid. A collar correction is one example, but there are other examples I can think of.

One example - my grandparents would leave this horrid little figurine whose eyes would light up (red) and the arms would swing when it felt vibration - so they left this nasty on the stairs when they could not watch us - I'll tell you straight we did not go up those stairs until that 'evil Charlie' was moved.

One of my dogs had an aversive reaction to a display doll dressed in green when her arms were up - you just could not get that dog to walk by her until he had a lot of deconditioning - that one doll could have been used as a strong aversive while a dozen other dolls were fine. If I had wanted to, I could probably have used this one doll to prevent him from entering rooms.

So, I would define an aversive as ANYTHING a dog (or person) will work to avoid. I have seen a very well known trainer actually throw a knotted chain behind a dog while the dog is coming in for a recall to speed the dog up - and yes, the dog sped up a lot to get away from that throw chain. Another dog did not react, so that same throw chain was thrown in to a metal bowl to increase the aversive factor. My dogs never attend her seminars btw, since if my dogs need that type of aversion work to come to me, I figure I have a bigger problem on my hands than the recall.

Interesting topic


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

When I was first training Turbo, my old border collie, for scent hurdle (like flyball but with four dumbells in a box at the end, dog has to scent out his) he got into this habit of grabbing every dumbell in the box and tossing it off to the side if it wasn't his. Very funny to watch but not so much fun for a timed event where the boxloader had to run in and fix everything (he would toss dumbells 10 feet off to the side). Plus some of the dogs got turned off if their dumbells had other dog spit on them (silly dogs).

So, we did some spare dumbells with bitter apple sprayed on them, and started out working him quietly and then moved up to actually running down the jumps with noise, to retrain him out of the habit of destroying the box. 

The bitter apple would be the adversive in that case, and worked quite well.

Mind you at the same time as training that issue, I had to teach him a command that meant 'look under your feet you goof' because he'd stand over the one spot in the box and get worked up on the other three dumbells not being the right one. It didn't take long to add in three other commands for the three other spots and really speed up the game.

Lana


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

The "uh oh" type thigns are often followed by a person coming in fast, in personal space, removing an item, etc... when you think about a dog/puppy new to a household, and in those contexts it can be conditioned aversive... 

An oh-oh, etc used as a NRM is not initially aversive... but can become so. I've seen some really amazing video clips (not online) where the animals got REALLY upset and beat up the props or ran off or became non responsive when the NRM sounded. And like I mentioned in the other thread, Ken Ramirez's talk on this is great.


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## Boondox (Sep 6, 2010)

Brings back fond memories. In grad school we compared the effectiveness of positive reinforcement (the reward was praise for desired behavior by pretty female research assistants) and negative reinforcement (the removal of an aversive stimulus when desired behavior was emitted). In our study of male students in the fitness center, the aversive stimulus we used was opera played loudly over the center's speakers. If the test subjects met their daily fitness goals, the music was changed to something of their choice. 

We found that getting rid of the opera was more effective than all the praise in the world!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think Sunrise hit it right on the head for me. It's unpleasant in some way, so the dog works to avoid it.

Lots of "uh-uh" noises are aversive in themselves. They're surprising or have an annoyed edge to them. They can also be conditioned aversives pretty easily. RedDogs described a pretty normal scenario in which the "uh-uh" noise because a subtly conditioned aversive over the life of the pup.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

For some reason I seem to think that my dog should consider "BOOP!" said in a high screeching voice an aversive, because I say it everytime Flip puts his feet on the counter. It hasn't deterred him yet but for some unknown reason I still find myself calling it out every time. I've never ever done that to another dog so who knows why it got into my head to use it for him...


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> For some reason I seem to think that my dog should consider "BOOP!" said in a high screeching voice an aversive, because I say it everytime Flip puts his feet on the counter. It hasn't deterred him yet but for some unknown reason I still find myself calling it out every time. I've never ever done that to another dog so who knows why it got into my head to use it for him...



Well then... it's reinforcing for you in some way!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

maybe I didn't realize I was popping a potato chip in my mouth every time I said it LOL


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

and the fact that it sounds a lot nicer than "son of bleep, for the last bleepin time you can't have my dirty bleeping dishes!" :

Apparently rather than actually teach him not to do that I'd rather spend my time screeching nonsense sounds at him. Sometimes I don't understand myself.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

you crack me up!




Loisiana said:


> and the fact that it sounds a lot nicer than "son of bleep, for the last bleepin time you can't have my dirty bleeping dishes!" :
> 
> Apparently rather than actually teach him not to do that I'd rather spend my time screeching nonsense sounds at him. Sometimes I don't understand myself.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, the first definition is pretty much how I see it. And the first definition does not say it needs to be conditioned (or maybe it is, as RedDogs describe). Either way, I think uh-uh can be an aversive depending on tone and context and I do believe dogs can pick up on that.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I do think that "UH UH" does inherently have aversive element and I think that is the reason it is used. I can't remember if I ever use it combined with any physical movements that may have seen threatening since I have tended to use it only in formal training. I have used a single loud "UH" when other dogs try to get into my pocket for treats when we are out walking, but that is meant to be aversive. Selli is around at those times but has shown no reaction to the noise as she knows it is not directed at her.

I use "nope" as a NRM when we do our Right Paw, Left Paw trick. If she gives me the wrong paw I say "nope" and she does not react as quickly as when I say "uh uh" (which I do not use for that trick since I want her to keep trying to give me the paw I asked for), so maybe I am using the "uh uh" as an aversive since I am expecting her to understand that I want her to stop doing something. BUT, that differentiation may be my differentiation but not how Selli understands them. I wash I could get her to talk!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Selli-Belle said:


> I use "nope" as a NRM when we do our Right Paw, Left Paw trick. If she gives me the wrong paw I say "nope" and she does not react as quickly as when I say "uh uh" (which I do not use for that trick since I want her to keep trying to give me the paw I asked for), so maybe I am using the "uh uh" as an aversive since I am expecting her to understand that I want her to stop doing something. BUT, that differentiation may be my differentiation but not how Selli understands them. I wash I could get her to talk!


I do the same thing, and I have to be careful. "Nope" sounds enough like "No," which I do use as an aversive, so if I get my tone wrong, I can see the dog take it as a mild aversive instead of as a neutral. If I really want an NRM, I need to remember to say "try again, silly!" because that's definitely been conditioned with Comet as a indicator to try something new.


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