# Soft mouth?



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

It will clear up with force fetch. If it hasn't, then you need to reinforce FF/collar fetch.
Here-nick typically gets the message across if they are collar conditioned. Suddenly they can hold on to the item.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> It will clear up with force fetch. If it hasn't, then you need to reinforce FF/collar fetch.
> Here-nick typically gets the message across if they are collar conditioned. Suddenly they can hold on to the item.


Thanks. So force on big items is what I should work on. I forced her on small bumpers and did not think that going to bigger items with be an issue since it was not an issue with Molly my older dog. Why can't they all be easy?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I am sending you a list of my hold drills.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Hey George, could you send it to me too? Riot has finally lost all his teeth so I can get back to working on hold. 

Vivian, do you work on force fetch and hold at different locations? I'm going to do that more with the new pup.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Thanks. So force on big items is what I should work on. I forced her on small bumpers and did not think that going to bigger items with be an issue since it was not an issue with Molly my older dog. Why can't they all be easy?


If you're already through collar fetch I don't think there's any reason to go back and do anything too formal with larger objects. Just when she's coming back with the big bumper or whatever and drops it, call her with "HERE!" and nick at the same time. She will quickly connect the dots that it's her responsibility to hold onto the object and not drop it. Careful with your timing and don't nick her as she's picking the object back up. The nick needs to come as she's dropped it and when you're saying "here."


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> If you're already through collar fetch I don't think there's any reason to go back and do anything too formal with larger objects. Just when she's coming back with the big bumper or whatever and drops it, call her with "HERE!" and nick at the same time. She will quickly connect the dots that it's her responsibility to hold onto the object and not drop it. Careful with your timing and don't nick her as she's picking the object back up. The nick needs to come as she's dropped it and when you're saying "here."


Ah, ok. This helps a lot, thank you.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Anyone have this problem with their retriever? Our issue is on large items like jumbo bumpers, dokkens, and ducks where her grip just isn't strong enough. She goes for the item with drive and exuberance but once it is in her mouth, she doesn't hold it tightly enough. Is it just a matter of doing more hold with large items or is there something else that I'm missing?


You got it! MORE REPS!!!
1)SIt on the couch and get your happy dog to sit infront of you. Teach your dog to hold the large bumper by tapping on his lower jaw or just push up gently and say hold.
2) REWARD when he/she doesn't mouth the bumper.
3)Reapeat
4) lengthen time he/she needs to hold large bumper before reward.
5) put dog on leash and walk with him with large bumper in his mouth.

Once he/she has got this down, you know the dog understands.

If the dog is collar conditioned, now you can introduce the collar for correction for this command(I use hold).

No need to FF,EVER!!!

YOUR GOAL IS TO HAVE THE DOG UNDERSTAND THE COLLAR. NOT PINCHING ITS FREAKING EAR!


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

[QUOTE

No need to FF,EVER!!!

YOUR GOAL IS TO HAVE THE DOG UNDERSTAND THE COLLAR. NOT PINCHING ITS FREAKING EAR![/QUOTE]

Not trying to start an argument, just asking are you against FF or do you think only collar fetch is needed?
Thanks , Jim


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

I never needed to FF any of my dogs. I taught them first, then condition to the collar. Its really that simple.

There are alot of people that lurk and read all this FF stuff and think you cant have a reliable retriever without it. I know this is just nonsence. I get to the same end goal as any well FF dog without it. Probably faster.
Its cut and dry to the dog

I hunt pheasants mostly. I played the hunt test games thru Mh and found it to be very easy. I probably could run my dog in QAA and do well if I felt the need. But the hunt test games really turned me off b/c there were alot of MH dogs that im sure were FF,lol that were not deserving of that title.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Marsh Mop,
If you go on Youtube and look up Bill Hillman, "The Fetch Command"

Force Fetching with ultra lite e collar for retriever, gun dogs no ear pinch. You will get a better understanding of what i do.

He explaines it much better than I ever can.


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

> I hunt pheasants mostly. I played the hunt test games thru Mh and found it to be very easy. I probably could run my dog in QAA and do well if I felt the need. But the hunt test games really turned me off b/c there were alot of MH dogs that im sure were FF,lol that were not deserving of that title.


 So you have run Master and feel the need to disrespect those who have a Master title. Then you tell us you have a Q level dog and have not run a Q. I'm sure that many people are happy that they don't have to face your superior dogs at the next FT they run! Thank heavens you don't feel the need. The LOL crap gets old. Don't make the MH title a joke. It is not easy or you would have one.
Yes I have seen Hillman. I will stick with Lard, Stawski and other Carr based training programs.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Poppy you need to go find a new place to play. GRF is not your place. You are forever argumentative and nasty for no reason. Go away. You have nothing of interest to offer. If you get nasty with me I will report you and get you banned from GRF and you will have to find another group to harass.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

marsh mop said:


> So you have run Master and feel the need to disrespect those who have a Master title. Then you tell us you have a Q level dog and have not run a Q. I'm sure that many people are happy that they don't have to face your superior dogs at the next FT they run! Thank heavens you don't feel the need. The LOL crap gets old. Don't make the MH title a joke. It is not easy or you would have one.
> Yes I have seen Hillman. I will stick with Lard, Stawski and other Carr based training programs.


I thought you said you weren't looking to argue??
I call it like I see it , this looks like you had a bad day at work, poor guy.

Sorry , but Mh is easy!!
Or maybe i'm just a better trainer than you, you pick.
Atleast I added some value to this thread, unlike you,


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Alaska, 
Did you just threaten me??


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Over 100 views on hillmans Fetch command video since I posted it here.
I helped more people in that one post than you did in your 3610 I can promise you that Alaska!
For those that don't know, Alaska just kicked A 10 month old dog out of her training group b/c she doesn't have a 1/2 hr to help the pup learn to sit and behave with all the new distraction. 

Is this not what a training group is for?

Wait, tell me again who is nasty?
Look in the mirror Alaska


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Poppy, you're getting hung up on terminology. 

When people here are talking about FF they are not talking about just pinching an ear to get the dog to pick up something. They are in reality talking about an entire force program or employing the use of pressure in training a dog. This isn't anything new. Many trainers from Sorenson, Walters, Carr, Dobbs, Lardy, Graham and yes, Hillman advocate a program that employs the use of pressure (force).

Each of those trainers had a little different spin to their programs, but ALL of them use pressure or in the generic terms FF, in training dogs. Hillman goes about it a little differently than the others (but then they all do), but he is still using a force program as are you.

It still comes down to having to adjust what you do according to the individual dog at the end of your leash.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Swampcollie said:


> Poppy, you're getting hung up on terminology.
> 
> When people here are talking about FF they are not talking about just pinching an ear to get the dog to pick up something. They are in reality talking about an entire force program or employing the use of pressure in training a dog. This isn't anything new. Many trainers from Sorenson, Walters, Carr, Dobbs, Lardy, Graham and yes, Hillman advocate a program that employs the use of pressure (force).
> 
> ...


Your right!
Each dog is a individual and each responds to pressure differently. In this case the OP was having issues with her dog awhile back. It was having issues on training days. No one could pin point why this dog was acting funny on training days. Could it be the other dogs.Maybe the people or gun shots , no one knew for sure. I made a suggestion to buy a dvd called GUNS Up. I thought maybe this could isolate the problem so she knew what to work on.

But I think a large part of this dogs problem is its "Soft". I don't think more advice on pressure from folks who follow Lardy , Graham or any other ear pinch method is suited for this specific dog.
Do you???

She liked my advice I gave her as did others. 

Yet you Lardy guys get all freaking defensive when someone offers up a different approach.
Why is that?
I think you are the ones with the blinders on!

I will continue to comment on ff issues when I feel that it is in the best intrest of the dog.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Not that it really makes a difference but this thread is about my 8 month old pup. The previous thread regarding training days is about my older dog, who I have basically decided to retire. Once a week if I can make it, we go to our group and train for fun and exercise and I've been so loose with her that she is even breaking on marks (I do call her back) and her momentum on blinds has gone back up but I have to be really careful that the blinds can be done in as few whistles as possible or she freaks out. She is having a lot more fun than she used to in group training, though.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Not that it really makes a difference but this thread is about my 8 month old pup. The previous thread regarding training days is about my older dog, who I have basically decided to retire. Once a week if I can make it, we go to our group and train for fun and exercise and I've been so loose with her that she is even breaking on marks (I do call her back) and her momentum on blinds has gone back up but I have to be really careful that the blinds can be done in as few whistles as possible or she freaks out. She is having a lot more fun than she used to in group training, though.


So happy to hear your old guy is happy!!
Good luck with your little one ;-)


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