# Which food would be best?



## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Maybe this site will help you decide:

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

It's hard to tell, the food you feed may have lots of impact on the dog's health. At the same time it doesn't have to. There's no "best" food, best I'd say is there are categories...lower and higher grade incidents. 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I would keep your pup on Iams for another month at least if she's doing well on it. No need to switch to another food right away.


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## Mom28kds (Mar 8, 2013)

Megora said:


> I would keep your pup on Iams for another month at least if she's doing well on it. No need to switch to another food right away.


Then what should I do?


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## Mom28kds (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm half way through my bag. My thought was to mix in a new kind with what I have to make the transition easier. Are you saying I should go ahead and buy another bag of Iames and make the transition later?


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Is she ok and healthy? I wouldn't worry some dogs grow faster, some slower...if she's not showing any signs that she may have health issues or parasites, has a healthy appetite, is playful etc.then just enjoy your puppy! If you are concerned about health then that's a different story.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I bet your puppy is a cutie at just 11 weeks old. Although a lot of people feed Pro Plan; I'm not an advocate of it. It relies heavily on corn gluten rather than specific meat meals, like "chicken meal", which is a more natural source of protein for dogs. Pro Plan also isn't willing to identify which animals they use for fat and simply call it "animal fat" and "animal digest". 

Take a look at *Dr. Tim's Kinesis* which is an "all life stages" food appropriate for puppies and adult dogs. There are multiple places that sell it in Ohio; plus most stores probably work with a distributor who could order it for you. It's also very easy to order it online through a store like Chewey. It sells for about $41.99 for a 30 lb. bag online. You may be able to get it cheaper locally.

Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Mom28kds said:


> I'm half way through my bag. My thought was to mix in a new kind with what I have to make the transition easier. Are you saying I should go ahead and buy another bag of Iames and make the transition later?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Try a smaller bag of Orijen Large puppy mixed with iams. It's very nutrient rich and has lots of protein...


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

If she is doing well on Iams well I feel you could be doing a lot worse...so don't feel bad if you want to stay with it. If you want to step up Eukanuba Is what I started my guys on and they did great. I now feed pro plan sensitive skin and stomach and its been wonderful for my allergenic golden. My absolute favorite results ever were in Fromm...but he developed sensitivities to something in it. Their Gold and Classic lines are quite reasonable IMO. I do agree on leaving her on Iams for at least a large bag before switching.


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## Mom28kds (Mar 8, 2013)

CITIgolden said:


> Is she ok and healthy? I wouldn't worry some dogs grow faster, some slower...if she's not showing any signs that she may have health issues or parasites, has a healthy appetite, is playful etc.then just enjoy your puppy! If you are concerned about health then that's a different story.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She was 3.2 pounds when I got her at 8 weeks. I took her to the vet right away. She had coccidia. She is good now and has doubled her weight. She seems to be healthy. I just know By reading on here that Golden puppies are much bigger. I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Mom28kds said:


> She was 3.2 pounds when I got her at 8 weeks. I took her to the vet right away. She had coccidia. She is good now and has doubled her weight. She seems to be healthy. I just know By reading on here that Golden puppies are much bigger. I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Seems like she is gaining weight and it feels like it's not a health issues. Orijen large breed puppy is a very good food, it's a bit pricey but to be honest KC ate so little of it that a bag would last me long, dogs eat less of it I guess because of high caloric content. You may try supplementing her diet with some probiotics, especially if she was on antibiotics and/or some non/low-fat yogurt, you can also cook some low fat chicken beast and give it to her 2-3x a week. Give her some doggie vitamins too.

The supplements mainly because her growth may have been impacted with coccidia. Luckily, pups are very resilient and I'm sure sh will do great! I do understand it's not easy not to worry...


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I am not familiar with the Iams product, however, I can tell you we fed Max Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy food until he was about 15 months old. He did very well on it. It is a good sign that your puppy has doubled in size so quickly.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Not a fan of IAMS, if you can try to do a raw diet, if done properly I can't find any reason why it would be the "healthiest" diet if you had to choose one, due to the endless benefits


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Tuco said:


> Not a fan of IAMS


Please give some specific reasons why you are not a fan of Iams. Thanks.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Mom28kds said:


> She was 3.2 pounds when I got her at 8 weeks. I took her to the vet right away. She had coccidia. She is good now and has doubled her weight. She seems to be healthy. I just know By reading on here that Golden puppies are much bigger. I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If she's been through the stress of coccidia, I would not even consider changing foods at this time. Stay with the Iams you've been using for at least another month or two. Don't get on the revolving food wagon, you can do a lot more harm than good. 

In the past I raised a lot of puppies on yellow bags of Iams Puppy. It's not a bad food so don't worry about it causing harm to your pup. There have been literally millions of puppies raised on Iams Puppy.


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

Sounds like you are doing ok with the Iams for now and the pup has been through enough digestive upheaval. Stick with the Iams for awhile then switch at a later time if you feel the need. IMO Pro Plan is a good choice that does not cost $$$.


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## smithfamily (Dec 17, 2012)

We recently switched our puppy from Iams LBP, we waited until she was about 14 weeks. She is actually huge, so I think Iams was working pretty well, but I also noticed that she had started itching a lot and I really wanted to try a different food to see what would happen. I also wanted something with a mid-range protein/fat and no byproducts, corn, wheat, etc. We switched her to NutriSource Adult and the itching greatly improved. I was happy with the ingredients, but I'm still a little unsure about the calcium level, I wish it were just a little less. I might switch over to Dr. Tim's Kinesis just to ease my mind about the calcium. I've also been ordering through Chewy and have the food delivered to my door which is so much better than going to the store and handling the large bags of food. Good luck with figuring out what to do. I spent some time researching what I was comfortable with as far as nutrition and recalls go and tried to pick a food that fit my criteria. Keep asking questions


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Mom28kds said:


> She was 3.2 pounds when I got her at 8 weeks. I took her to the vet right away. She had coccidia. She is good now and has doubled her weight. She seems to be healthy. I just know By reading on here that Golden puppies are much bigger. I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



One thing to keep in mind - bigger is not HEALTHIER. If your pup has a good weight for her size and she's healthy, don't worry about it. 

Try to keep in mind that goldens grow and develop per their genes. There are other members here who have mentioned that their dogs are 45 pounds or so at full grown. While other people's puppies are 40 pounds when they are 15 weeks old. 

I don't believe there is any commercial dog food out there that would lead to your pup becoming malnourished and failing to thrive. Unless you are under-feeding your dog. 

In general - different kibbles (like the grain free varieties) probably are not your best bet if you are tight on the wallet. They cost more and it seems like people have to feed their dogs bigger amounts to keep the weight on them.

I think too that if your dog is more active or is doing fieldwork or something like that, they do need to be fed more food regardless. My instructor who does field-work with her dogs mentioned other trainers she knows who feed their dogs 6-8 cups of food a day to keep the weight on them while they are in training. 

One tip she offered to people as far as what she does to help her dogs keep weight on while training is adding olive oil to their food. 

Pro Plan has good food. My "pup" is getting 1 cup of PP Performance a day (in addition to 1 cup of Nutrisource regular adult chicken/rice). This was primarily while he's growing and I'm kinda hoping to give his muscles and bones every chance of building up properly. My 5 year old golden is just on Nutrisource, because he doesn't need the extra fat and calories. 

Bertie ate the PP Focus Chicken/Rice puppy food (regular, not large breed)... until he was 4.5 months old and I switched him to adult food. That was the same food that the breeder had him on, and my belief based on raising the two guys we have right now is that keeping the puppies on the same food they come with helps avoid a lot of the loose stool and "food allergies" concerns that would otherwise you'd be dealing with. That's why I said stay the course at least another month or so. Get past that first growth before you start weaning onto a new food. 

And then take a few weeks to wean onto the new food. Don't rush it. 

Hope that helps - 

And again, don't worry about size and weight as long as you pup is healthy.


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## Mom28kds (Mar 8, 2013)

Megora said:


> One thing to keep in mind - bigger is not HEALTHIER. If your pup has a good weight for her size and she's healthy, don't worry about it.
> 
> Try to keep in mind that goldens grow and develop per their genes. There are other members here who have mentioned that their dogs are 45 pounds or so at full grown. While other people's puppies are 40 pounds when they are 15 weeks old.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much )


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm not a fan of Iams either. Most formulas contain a lot of corn meal and too high in carbohydrates. 

Millions of children are raised on McDonalds and hotdogs. That doesn't make it a healthy diet.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

stealle said:


> I'm not a fan of Iams either. Most formulas contain a lot of corn meal and too high in carbohydrates.
> 
> Millions of children are raised on McDonalds and hotdogs. That doesn't make it a healthy diet.


Lol I remember that guy from supersize me, he ate the world record most Big Mac combos, he wasnt fat, he didn't look like death, but I'd be surprised if he lives past 50, the if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality is ridiculous


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Carmella, my previous golden, ate Iams for the first 8 or 9 years of her life. She lived to be almost 15 years old. It ain't broke.

Flora eats Purina Pro Plan SS and she does very well on it. The constant belittling of perfectly acceptable foods is so, so, sooooo tiring.

I'd keep your pup on what she's on for a while now. There's no point in upsetting her tummy. Trust me. I went in that direction with Flora and it was extremely messy!


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

My grandpa smoked and drank until he died comfortably at 97 years old. He had a sound mind and lived independently until the day he died. Therefore, smoking and drinking is OK. 

I agree these conversations get tiring. I don't understand why people do not educate themselves and feed the best food they can afford. We are in 99.9% control over our dogs food intake (.1% is the occasional random "treat" they find while outside). Unlike my human children who I sometimes struggle with getting them to "eat your veggies", my dogs will gladly eat whatever I put in front of them. That makes it easy to feed them a healthy diet. There will be no upset tummies if you gradually introduce healthy food along with some prebiotics, probiotics, and digestive enzymes. There just isn't any reason to feed dog food that is full of corn, grains, and carbs. We dont have to feed "acceptable" foods. There are lots of "excellent" options out there.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Unfortunately, some of these "excellent" foods are overpriced and make the dogs sick or at the very least cause digestive chaos for the dogs. Or sometimes lead to dogs not thriving as well as those dogs eating the "junk" food. I've gotta say, but if you boast about how great your dog's food is, you better be showing pictures of your dog showing that coat, energy, healthy weight, and bright eyes.  

You should not have to feed probiotics and whatever other side junk in order to supplement the dog food. These dog foods should already be formatted to be palatable and digestible for your dog without any extra stuff.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Megora said:


> Unfortunately, some of these "excellent" foods are overpriced and make the dogs sick or at the very least cause digestive chaos for the dogs. Or sometimes lead to dogs not thriving as well as those dogs eating the "junk" food. I've gotta say, but if you boast about how great your dog's food is, you better be showing pictures of your dog showing that coat, energy, healthy weight, and bright eyes.


Oh... I might post some pictures eventually. I just don't like to bother with that sort of thing. But, I should...



Megora said:


> You should not have to feed probiotics and whatever other side junk in order to supplement the dog food. These dog foods should already be formatted to be palatable and digestible for your dog without any extra stuff.


Anyway, dogs might seems "sick" eating healthier foods, but only because their digestive system is not accustomed to the change in diet. The dog food companies want us to believe their kibble to "formatted to be palatable and digestible for your dog without any extra stuff" but prebiotics, probiotics, and enzymes are usually an afterthought. Junk? Seriously? You can call these "junk" if you wish but no animal or human could survive without them. If you seriously consider these junk that just shows how little you know about nutrition.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

stealle said:


> Oh... I might post some pictures eventually. I just don't like to bother with that sort of thing. But, I should...


It would be nice.....




> that just shows how little you know about nutrition.


Yep. You dum dum me gum gum. Or something. LOL. 

*People just resent it when you have self-proclaimed experts attacking the food they feed their dogs while pushing some other brand label or fad diet. *

You yourself feed orijen to your dogs.... that food has a recall practically every couple years - some of them being serious issues. I'm not going to get all hyped up like somebody-who-is-no-longer-trolling-grf-thank-the-lord about the brand, but I just have to say I would rather feed my dog food that has never been recalled as opposed to feeding a dog food that has been recalled repeatedly for various reasons. 

As far as probiotics - I do think that unless your dog has something wrong with him or there something wrong with the food, you shouldn't have to give those probiotics to keep their poop solid. My opinion as a dog owner whose goldens are very healthy. Bertie has never had diarrhea and the only time Jacks had combustible butt was when I tested a raw coated kibble. :bowl: 

ETA - ok, I just remembered something else. While training articles for obedience - Jacks got combustible butt all over the house from getting too much cheesewiz day after day while I taught the initial steps (lots of cheesewiz used). That was unrelated to dog food though.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I do regularly post pics of tuco, on a regular basis even now as his puppy coat is gone, people are shocked at how soft his coat is ( and shiny when I actually get to washing him well) although I agree probiotics aren't completely nessesary in a dog food they can only help and a dog food where they need probiotics to solidify stools is better than one with 25% corn and wheat which is just not absorbed well and unaturally solidifys stools, you are also getting natural probiotics vs underegulated Monsanto zombie field corn. 


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Megora said:


> You yourself feed orijen to your dogs.... that food has a recall practically every couple years - some of them being serious issues. I'm not going to get all hyped up like somebody-who-is-no-longer-trolling-grf-thank-the-lord about the brand, but I just have to say I would rather feed my dog food that has never been recalled as opposed to feeding a dog food that has been recalled repeatedly for various reasons.


As far as I know, there has never been a recall on Orijen dog food in the USA. The visible bone found in the kibble some years ago was not a recall. And, the Australian recall is of no concern to me because the problem was caused by the Australian government irradiating the food which destroyed the Vitamin A and effected only cats. Orijen no longer ships to countries that irradiate their food. The US government does not irradiate Orijen as it comes into the country so that is a non-issue for my dogs. Please provide proof of a recall in the USA.

I try not to be "pushy" about Orijen. As a matter of fact, this is the first time I have mentioned Orijen in this thread (after you brought it up). However, I can't help myself sometimes. I do think it is very good. To be completely honest though, I feed it out of convenience. I believe the healthiest diet you can feed is the Whole Prey Raw Model especially if you are feeding free-range animals. That is actually what my dogs get on weekends... 100% raw. On weekdays I top Orijen with a little raw green tripe for their evening meals. 

A final note about probiotics and enzymes. Your gut and your dogs gut is full of probiotics right now. Our bodies make enzymes to break down food. Without probiotics and enzymes we simply would not be able to digest and use the food we eat. Unlike humans, dogs do not make any salivary amylase; the enzyme necessary to break down carbohydrates. They do secrete amylase further down the digestive tract. The intestines in dogs are much shorter than humans; food moves through a dogs digestive system much faster than a human so they can not break down and use large amounts of carbohydrates like humans can. I'm not saying all carbohydrates are bad, but they should be limited and supplementing with digestive enzymes can certainly help with digesting them.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

stealle said:


> As far as I know, there has never been a recall on Orijen dog food in the USA. The visible bone found in the kibble some years ago was not a recall. And, the Australian recall is of no concern to me because the problem was caused by the Australian government irradiating the food which destroyed the Vitamin A and effected only cats. Orijen no longer ships to countries that irradiate their food. The US government does not irradiate Orijen as it comes into the country so that is a non-issue for my dogs. Please provide proof of a recall in the USA.


Hmmm.... seems I was thinking about a couple other brands produced by the same manufacturer as Orijen that have been recalled a plenty of late. Orijen gets lumped in with them in my brain, clearly by relation. 



> I try not to be "pushy" about Orijen.


Then why be pushy about bashing other people's food choices for their dogs in favor of your own personal choices for your unpictured dogs? 



> I'm not saying all carbohydrates are bad, but they should be limited and supplementing with digestive enzymes can certainly help with digesting them.


Honey, it is not necessary. Unless, again - you are actually having problems with the food you are feeding your dogs.

I guess if I were feeding my dogs raw or homemade food, probiotics would be necessary. 

But if you are feeding a good commercial brand food, there should be no need to supplement any probiotics. Again, unless your dog has issues or the food has issues.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Megora said:


> Hmmm.... seems I was thinking about a couple other brands produced by the same manufacturer as Orijen that have been recalled a plenty of late. Orijen gets lumped in with them in my brain, clearly by relation.


Orijen's manufacturer (Champion Pet Foods) produces only two brands -- Orijen and Acana. There have not been any recalls for neither brands in the US. 

The fact that they make their food in their own plant is one of the reasons why I like Champion. 


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Megora said:


> Then why be pushy about bashing other people's food choices for their dogs in favor of your own personal choices for your unpictured dogs?


I don't bash any ones food choices unless they come onto the forum asking about it. The title of this thread is "What food is best?" Followed by the OP stating "I feed Iams." This is an invitation for constructive criticism for food choices. As a result, I try to give helpful sound advice. 



Megora said:


> Honey, it is not necessary. Unless, again - you are actually having problems with the food you are feeding your dogs.
> 
> I guess if I were feeding my dogs raw or homemade food, probiotics would be necessary.
> 
> But if you are feeding a good commercial brand food, there should be no need to supplement any probiotics. Again, unless your dog has issues or the food has issues.


You are as wrong about this as you are about the Orijen recalls that do no exist. Raw feeding would not need supplementation because all of the probiotics and enzymes are naturally already there. Kibble is cooked and most of the enzymes are destroyed and the beneficial bacteria killed. Which is why some manufacturers add them back.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Mom28kds said:


> My 11 week old is currently using Iams puppy. I bought it before I found GRF. She is very small at 7.4 lbs. I am on a budget but would like to get some food that would help her. I see lots of Pro Plan users. Would that be best? How do you decide whether to get the SS or regular? Is there another food that would be better?


I think Fromm Puppy Gold is a really nice food.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> This is an invitation for constructive criticism for food choices.


I suspect it was invitation for suggestions, not an invitation to criticize the food she is currently feeding her dog and equate it with somebody smoking and drinking all their life. 



> Raw feeding would not need supplementation because all of the probiotics and enzymes are naturally already there.


Along with harmful bacteria like salmonella....

So if you are feeding Orijen, you absolutely have to give your dog probiotics and whatever else because the manufacturer did not add those things back into the food - based on what you are saying.

But if you feed your dog raw food, absolutely no probiotics are necessary - based on what you are saying.

I see.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Champion has not had any recalls but they have had an import issue into the US where food tested positive for salmonella. They have also had a number of availability issues with Acana, the food we fed for almost 4 years until very recently when we switched. 

Personally I think Orijen is too high in protein, it is not a food I would feed. I also think the term "best" is subjective when talking about dry dog food. Best does not always mean grain free and super high protein. I will probably never feed grain free again, my dogs are doing amazing now on a grain inclusive food. Best is what works for your dog and keeps them healthy. 


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Megora said:


> Hmmm.... seems I was thinking about a couple other brands produced by the same manufacturer as Orijen that have been recalled a plenty of late. Orijen gets lumped in with them in my brain, clearly by relation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Megora you are in the wrong on this one, first of all champion foods the producer of acana and Orijen has not had a recall in their history, aside from a cat food issue in Australia due to import practices, some of the foods I've seen you have had numerous deadly recalls. Probiotics are nessesary for all living animals to digest food and is in our stomachs, many foods for humans and animals are mainly considered healthy because of the probiotics in them, and although they are not needed, as you are saying, you are contradicting numerous previous statements, that mentality basically just supports the dog foods shouldn't have carbohydrates or additives etc. I do not feed probiotics as a supplement to my dogs aside from healthy foods tha just happen to contain them. Your dog food relys on dozens of additive and vitamins to keep it healthy while mine, I fed meat and organs and that's all I need to feed to have a dog that's having a food that is better for his digestive system, general health, and strength. 


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Oh and Criticizing steale for bashing foods is ridiculous because all he said was he wasn't a fan while you are making false claims about a pet food producer, champion foods, which is generally considered one of the highest respected manufacterers with great quality controll. And your brief claims about raw had no merit whatsoever, most prey model raw feeders I see on raw feeding group are supplement free


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> some of the foods I've seen you have had numerous deadly recalls.


_Really_? Which ones? 

I'll list the primary foods I've fed below and you can tell me which ones have been recalled. 

Nutro Ultra Adult - fed for about 4 years before I gave other brands a try to get weight off of Jacks. I had no complaints about the food and would go back to it without a problem. 

Nutro Natural Choice - green and red bags. I switched to Nutro Ultra when that came out on the market, otherwise I would have kept Jacks and Danny on NC. 

Merrick - 5 star entrees before they merged with Organix and chicken and brown rice after the merge. I switched to Nutrisource when Bertie came home, because Nutrisource is cheaper and was one of the foods Bertie's breeder recommended. 

Nutrisource Adult, chicken & Rice - Jacks been eating this regularly since December and now Bertie's eating 1/2 that in addition to Performance.

Pro Plan Focus (Regular not large breed) Puppy, Chicken & Rice - for the first 4 months.

Pro Plan Performance - Bertie gets 1/2 this since he was 4.5 months old. 

Other foods Jacks has done well on (based on feeding 1/2 with Nutro Ultra):

Solid Gold Hund N Flockn
Earthborn Ocean Fusion
Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach

The above are all foods my dogs did well on and I'd recommend to anyone. 




> although they are not needed, as you are saying,


No. I wasn't saying that at all. I'm saying _supplementation_ of probiotics if you are feeding a good quality dog food is not necessary. If you have to supplement, then the food is lacking or your dog may have other things going on. 

If you are feeding raw food, I suspect there is a lot more involved than just feeding your dog meat. This came up elsewhere and a prominently known golden breeder who does advocate raw and feeds her dogs raw, was having fits because of numbskulls who are feeding their dogs an incomplete diet. There is a lot more science involved than just feeding your dog cheap raw meat for the rest of his life.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Megora said:


> _Really_? Which ones?
> 
> I'll list the primary foods I've fed below and you can tell me which ones have been recalled.
> 
> ...


Most of the time people do not feed probiotics because they need it to solidify stools they use it because it allows the dog to even better absorb and digest the food, than of they weren't . The supplementation is rarely nessesary but it can do great job improving an already great food. Your accusations that all I feed is cheap raw meat I find insulting. I feed a huge variety of meats and organs in which I weight and calculate the fat protien contents of along with perfecting the ratios. I feed grass fed organic when it's available and hunted foods regularly. Every month when I get meat I post what I feed. Find one of my threads, see if you can find something I'm lacking nutritionally , but if your dog live in there teens I bet they will be plagued with health issues and cancers, perhaps from the processing, maybe from the excess gm field corn, but mine are far less likely to have to deal with it


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tuco said:


> Find one of my threads...


I'm sorry, but I'm going to be honest here... while I do not use the "ignore" function for anyone, I generally do not go out of my way to read what some people say. I'm sure there are people who do the same with my comments and threads, and I'm fine with that. 

And the main reason why I do not generally read your comments or pay too much attention to them is because you keep making ignorant statements like the following. 



> if your dog live in there teens I bet they will be plagued with health issues and cancers, perhaps from the processing, maybe from the excess gm field corn, but mine are far less likely to have to deal with it


I'll repeat what I said the last time you said this.... I know people who fed raw food, avoided chemicals, avoided grains, etc.... who lost their dogs early (before the age of 8) to cancers like lymphoma or bone cancer. Years ago when the raw fad got its start, there was a hope that it would eliminate that fear of cancer. I do think that people are gradually finding that it is not that simple and you can't cheat genetics. 

You own a golden retriever now, and the fact is that once these dogs get into their teens... especially male goldens.... you deal with the cost of old age. This could be anything from arthritis to old age cataracts. And they generally die from cancer. Across the board. 

And remember too that cancer is probably more prevalent across the board as the cause of death for old dogs than reported - simply because most owners do not bother having necropsies done for old dogs.

ETA - And I want to make something very clear. I have no problems with people feeding their dogs raw. It's not exactly anything I would do for various reasons, but I do have friends who feed their dogs raw and I do respect them for what I see as an expensive and time consuming labor of love. There are also many members here on GRF who feed their dogs raw diets and have for a long time. They just do it and don't really make a big deal out of it.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Megora said:


> I'm sorry, but I'm going to be honest here... while I do not use the "ignore" function for anyone, I generally do not go out of my way to read what some people say. I'm sure there are people who do the same with my comments and threads, and I'm fine with that.
> 
> And the main reason why I do not generally read your comments or pay too much attention to them is because you keep making ignorant statements like the following.
> 
> ...


I agree that cancer is largely genetic, but things like diet have been connected to a fair increase risk, you also have to not the significant increase in cancers found in dogs since the 50s. 


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Megora said:


> I suspect it was invitation for suggestions, not an invitation to criticize the food she is currently feeding her dog and equate it with somebody smoking and drinking all their life.
> 
> Along with harmful bacteria like salmonella....
> 
> ...


I give. I'm trying to give the OP good information. Your posts are directed at me. I think you just want to argue or you just don't understand what I'm trying to say. The word "criticize" just means to "find fault" not humiliate or anything else you seem to think I'm trying to do. I use analogies like drinking and smoking when other members say things like "oh my dogs ate it for 15 years... that food is fine." My point was that there will always be anecdotal evidence that show some people/animals can survive or even thrive despite their vices or a poor diet. But, we can't assume everyone or every golden will do well with them. There will be dogs that thrive on Ol' Roy dog chow (probably the most unhealthy dry dog food available), but they are the exception and not the rule. Surely, you can agree with that analogy. Some people, some dogs can just get by with anything and still be healthy! Why? Perhaps genetics. Perhaps luck. I try to make suggestions that assume your dog does not have perfect genetics or the best of luck. 

I put things like digestive enzymes and green tripe (loaded with prebiotics and digestive enzymes) on kibble to help with digestion; especially digestion of the starches in the kibble. As I said before, probiotics and enzymes are mostly destroyed when the kibble is cooked. Enzymes are destroyed in temperatures greater than about 105 degrees F. Even if the manufacturer adds them back in they can be destroyed on a hot summer day sitting in a hot warehouse or the hot UPS truck during shipping in the summer. So, no matter what brand of dry dog food I feed, I will add some form of digestive enzymes. There is sometimes salmonella in raw food. However, most cases of dogs becoming sick from salmonella are those on dry dog food diets. Most likely because raw food moves quicker through the digestive system and raw fed dogs have a healthier digestive tract full of beneficial bacteria that does not give salmonella a chance to survive.

I hope most people reading these posts understand that I am trying to be helpful. My professional healthcare education involves humans. I realize there are BIG differences between human vs animal nutrition. However, there is also BIG correlations between dogs and humans in the way organs function and on the cellular level. I do not claim to be a canine nutrition expert, but I have taken the time to educate myself about canine nutrition and continue to do so. So when I make suggestions I try to give nutritional suggestions that, based on facts about canine nutrition, would be healthy for the vast majority of dogs. 

I think the discussion is starting to repeat itself. :doh: I'm going to bow out of this one, Megora. You can take it from here.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Salmonella risk is one of the biggest myths about raw, proportionately to the population being fed, there is actually more incidences of salmonella from kibble than from meat, this is with the FDAs estimate that 60% of raw chicken has notable amounts of salmonella on it, I believe there was a study, il see if I can find It when I get home, by UC Davis or Cornell that showed that raw fed dogs generally have a stronger digestive system and made a connection between a lower occurance of GI issues and bacterial infections like E.coli and salmonella. I less have a problem with grain inclusive food as I do with the general amount and quality of the grain in the foods, you may be getting almost a quarter of foods filled with corn, and it's not the health anti oxidant filled sweet corn, it's underegulated pet feed field corn courtesy of Monsanto which was connected to insane tumours and growths in a French study. Do not accuse me of hostility or ignorance as that is a massive hipocracy on your part, you have been unbelievably hostile to steale in this thread, who of the three of us has been the most civil in the presentation of his facts and constructive criticisms. You have been called out on your incorrect facts and flat out incorrect statements almost a dozen times on this thread by numerous members


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> I agree that cancer is largely genetic, but things like diet have been connected to a fair increase risk, you also have to not the significant increase in cancers found in dogs since the 50s.


Sorry, but there's no actual evidence that dogs have more cancer since the 50s. People didn't test dogs for cancer in the 50s. There wasn't widespread testing of sick dogs for cancer until the 90s, and even then you can argue that it wasn't widespread enough to provide a coherent dataset to compare against statistics from the last decade.

So this is simply a baseless statement that somebody made up because it sounded right, and now people repeat it like it's gospel.

And you should also provide some evidence for the claim that "things like diet have been connected to a fair increase risk" if you want us to buy it, or it goes under the overstuffed file folder of things people repeat on forums that sound right but aren't based in fact. Diet is connected to cancer risks when humans or dogs eat carcinogens or eat too much. There's no evidence at all that the popular bugaboo ingredients like corn and other grains increase cancer risks.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

stealle said:


> Your posts are directed at me.


Er.... when somebody responds to something you said to them, they unfortunately have to direct the posts back to you when they respond to you. It's how conversation works, I think. 

No, I'm not trying to argue with you. I just respond where it applies, especially when things are said directly to me.



> The word "criticize" just means to "find fault" not humiliate


I didn't necessarily go so far as accusing you of humiliating anyone as you directed your initial criticism at regular dog food. How can somebody humiliate dog food? : 

I do still think that when somebody starts threads asking for a good dog food alternative for their dogs - if you are going to suggest a better alternative, you could do so without leading the way with criticism of what they and a lot of people feed their dogs. 



> I use analogies like drinking and smoking when other members say things like "oh my dogs ate it for 15 years... that food is fine." My point was that there will always be anecdotal evidence that show some people/animals can survive or even thrive despite their vices or a poor diet. But, we can't assume everyone or every golden will do well with them. There will be dogs that thrive on Ol' Roy dog chow (probably the most unhealthy dry dog food available), but they are the exception and not the rule.


If there was any mention of feeding Old Roy or some of those other really terrible quality dog foods.... I would have been leading the "don't feed that terrible food" parade. 

Ages ago with our first golden we fed a certain dog food that comes in a yellow bag.... because it was cheap and it was whatever caught my mom's eye the first time she went down the dog food aisle and picked out something to feed our puppy. 

Nowadays when I look at the ingredients list on those bags - OMG. I can't believe we fed him that! 



> I put things like digestive enzymes and green tripe (loaded with prebiotics and digestive enzymes) on kibble to help with digestion; especially digestion of the starches in the kibble. As I said before, probiotics and enzymes are mostly destroyed when the kibble is cooked. Enzymes are destroyed in temperatures greater than about 105 degrees F. Even if the manufacturer adds them back in they can be destroyed on a hot summer day sitting in a hot warehouse or the hot UPS truck during shipping in the summer. So, no matter what brand of dry dog food I feed, I will add some form of digestive enzymes. There is sometimes salmonella in raw food. However, most cases of dogs becoming sick from salmonella are those on dry dog food diets. Most likely because raw food moves quicker through the digestive system and raw fed dogs have a healthier digestive tract full of beneficial bacteria that does not give salmonella a chance to survive.


Maybe dogs fed raw food adjust to the salmonella? I've read about some dogs having squiffy adjustments to raw food at the beginning. My friends start very slowly and carefully with raw food just to make sure the system adjustments are smooth. 

Again, you may add probiotics to the food... but it's not ultimately necessary to a good quality dog food. Our only dog who needs probiotics is our collie, and that's only because he has chronic intestinal issues (collie gut). 



> My professional healthcare education involves humans.


Exactly.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

stealle said:


> I'm not a fan of Iams either. Most formulas contain a lot of corn meal and too high in carbohydrates.
> 
> Millions of children are raised on McDonalds and hotdogs. That doesn't make it a healthy diet.


That's a false analogy that implies the OP is nutritionally abusing her dog. It's neither accurate nor kind of you to make it. You're right that the popularity of a food is no proof of its quality (Ol' Roy is America's most popular food, probably because it is cheap and widely available), but comparing Iams to McDonald's isn't accurate, and it's certainly quite unkind.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

stealle said:


> I don't understand why people do not educate themselves and feed the best food they can afford.


Here's the problem in your thinking: some of us have educated ourselves at least as much as you have and haven't come to the same conclusions about what the best food is. I can certainly afford to feed any dog food out there, even the incredibly expensive ones that are delivered frozen to your house, and I'd put my level of education up against anybody else's on GRF. And yet I feed Eukanuba LBP to my puppies and Eukanuba Premium Performance 30/20 to my active adults.

I do that because I think it's the best food for my dogs, not because I lack the time or ability to educate myself further, and not because I cannot afford dog food that costs even more. 

I think people make a lot of hay about certain ingredients, but when you actually read the primary research and the secondary guidance from real scientists, most of the info that gets passed around internet forums and dog food websites is utter nonsense. People blame this or that ingredient for things that just aren't true when you study the ingredient itself. People pass around statements about what's "natural," and if it sounds right (omg, dogs are wolves!), it gets passed around. There's very little correlation between nutritional science and internet chatter about dog food.



stealle said:


> There just isn't any reason to feed dog food that is full of corn, grains, and carbs. We dont have to feed "acceptable" foods. There are lots of "excellent" options out there.


Well, I don't know where you draw the line of "full of," but corn, grains, and carbs can each be an excellent part of a dog's diet when they're in proper balance. The same goes for animal protein and fat. Too much, and the dog gets sick. In the rather wide window of "not too much," the dog thrives. I cannot tell you how often somebody comes on GRF and complains that their dog has digestive problems with a premium kibble. I think sometimes manufacturers make what people say they want, which means waaaayyyyy too much meat and fat, and the dogs don't do as well.

We can argue about percentages, amounts, and sources, but the inclusion of a grain the food isn't, by itself, a concession to mediocrity for those of us who choose those foods.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> I do regularly post pics of tuco, on a regular basis even now as his puppy coat is gone, people are shocked at how soft his coat is ( and shiny when I actually get to washing him well) although I agree probiotics aren't completely nessesary in a dog food they can only help and a dog food where they need probiotics to solidify stools is better than one with 25% corn and wheat which is just not absorbed well and unaturally solidifys stools, you are also getting natural probiotics vs underegulated Monsanto zombie field corn.


As Dr. Nicholas Dodd notes in his books, raw-fed dogs often have shiny coats because raw diets have a lot of fat in them. Nearly any high-fat diet will give a dog a shiny coat (witness my two).

And what does it mean to "unaturally solidifys stools?" If they're solid, how is that "unatural?"


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Here's the problem in your thinking: some of us have educated ourselves at least as much as you have and haven't come to the same conclusions about what the best food is. I can certainly afford to feed any dog food out there, even the incredibly expensive ones that are delivered frozen to your house, and I'd put my level of education up against anybody else's on GRF. And yet I feed Eukanuba LBP to my puppies and Eukanuba Premium Performance 30/20 to my active adults.
> 
> I do that because I think it's the best food for my dogs, not because I lack the time or ability to educate myself further, and not because I cannot afford dog food that costs even more.
> 
> ...


You make a great point. We don't exactly have an abundance of "my dog eats Proplan or Eukenuba, and has the runs" posts, but there certainly are plenty of them from those who feed their dogs some of the "high end" foods. There's something to be said about that, I think. 


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Nairb said:


> You make a great point. We don't exactly have an abundance of "my dog eats Proplan or Eukenuba, and has the runs" posts, but there certainly are plenty of them from those who feed their dogs some of the "high end" foods. There's something to be said about that, I think.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Because ingredients like corn and wheat solidify stools because they don't digest as well and 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Tuco said:


> Because ingredients like corn and wheat solidify stools because they don't digest as well and
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Do you have documentation or evidence to back up this statement? 


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

How about folks stick to offering opinions and then let OP and everyone else make decisions about what's best for them and their dogs. Really no point in having debates about science of this and that. 

Is corn something dogs need - no - will it hurt them, maybe, but we don't know. The same could apply to many other ingredients in dog foods. I'd argue that rendered meat is much worse than corn and there's no way to know for the most part. The sad thing is that a lot of pet foods are full of junk which is far more dangerous than any individual ingredient...

Just my 2 cents,


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

There is no evidence that I have seen that corn hurts dogs. If you have that evidence please post a link. 

It is fine to have opinions on dog food, but when statements are made that are made as a fact or quasi-fact members have the right to ask for supporting evidence. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Because ingredients like corn and wheat solidify stools because they don't digest as well and


You mean dietary fiber? The "indigestible portion of food derived from plants?" The thing that doctors are always telling us to get more of? That's unnatural? Darn...I gotta throw out all that whole grain bread we bought.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> There is no evidence that I have seen that corn hurts dogs. If you have that evidence please post a link.
> 
> It is fine to have opinions on dog food, but when statements are made that are made as a fact or quasi-fact members have the right to ask for supporting evidence.
> 
> ...


You are right, there is no evidence to support corn causes harm in dogs, on the flip side there's no evidence that it doesn't...there's never been a large longevity, conclusive nutritional study for dogs. With all due respect, you are also stating a fact that you have never seen any evidence which does not imply the lack of evidence... (i don't want to go into semantics debate, but just saying that the other posters have the right to state their opinions based on what they know as much as you are right to state yours - again based on what you know). There are studies of corn in some other lab animals, but hard to say how that translates on people or dogs....

Corn is fed to farm raised fish these days, is it their natural food NO - does it cause harm and how much, probably 10-20yrs too soon to tell, unless someone has already started a longevity research on the matter...

We don't even know if and to what degree barbiturates found in some, and antibiotics, found in many dog foods hurt dogs. However, one has full right to apply the precautionary principle and state that they believe those substances would be hurtful. At the end of the day, it's the owner's decision what to make of it.

I would say the bigger concern we should all worry about is the fact that almost every year there is a massive food recall due to one or another reason and these companies are getting away with it with no consequence.

Since all of us here care about dogs, I was merely suggesting that instead of going back and forth on this and that, we simply agree to disagree on some matters. I was using corn as an example, there's plenty other stuff out there. Thus the conclusion to the OP and everyone on this thread would be that the opinions of folks are split whether or not particular ingredients are good or bad., and perhaps that's a good enough reason to do some individual research to make up their own mind.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CITIgolden said:


> How about folks stick to offering opinions and then let OP and everyone else make decisions about what's best for them and their dogs. Really no point in having debates about science of this and that.


Do you really mean that we should just offer _opinions_ about nutrition without discussing science? How else would one make nutritional decisions except by analyzing the available evidence?

I understand saying that when one is advocating a position for which there's little or no evidence, requests for evidence and science can be problematic, but if you really believe your position is accurate, wouldn't you think that the evidence would support it? If we're talking fashion, sure, it's all a matter of opinion. But it when it comes to nutrition, there's an enormous pile of science available. And when people offer _opinions_ that directly contradict the available evidence, it's downright responsible to question where those opinions came from and if there's any new evidence to offer.



CITIgolden said:


> Is corn something dogs need - no - will it hurt them, maybe, but we don't know. The same could apply to many other ingredients in dog foods.


I really don't understand this mentality. We _do_ know that corn doesn't hurt dogs. Dogs eat and digest corn all the time, and there's lots of evidence about how they developed that ability over the last 15,000 years and how they thrive on food with corn in it today. Given that preponderance of evidence, it's kind of strange to single it out and claim that we just don't know if it's safe or not. I get that "prove it's safe first" attitude when it comes to additives, but not when it comes to vegetables.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Where is your evidence to show that corn does not increases incidence of cancer? Show me a longevity representative cancer meta study when you make a statement like that. I can go on and on about every single ingredient you mention. 

It's not a toxic substance (at least not immediate toxin), so yes a dog won't get poisoned if you feed him corn...

Your claims have exact same amount of validity as someone's who says otherwise. Not sure where the god syndrome for some people on here is coming from. But this is NOT how science works and since you are merely disagreeing with the other poster don't pretend you have evidence to support your claims. Just because something is done, does not make it right. The fact is that we do not know if corn, since we are sticking to it, is good for dogs, but that also does not mean it's bad. Any claim otherwise is complete intellectual laziness and the black and white view of the world...

We've been drinking alcohol for thousands of years yet it's quite controversial to health after many many longevity based studies and we can ascertain that in large quantities it's harmful.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Also I think when you say 15000 years of corn use in dog you're a bit more than off historically/scientifically speaking....perhaps rice, but even rice not for 15,000 yrs unless you want to make claims that dogs ancestors used to graze but then we can make claims that dinosaurs lived 5000 years ago alongside men.

With all due respect, your posts are full of your opinions packaged as science. 

I don't see that as much more than an opinion. And yes you are doing not much more than merely advocating one approach based on those opinions.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

I also won't engage further, it's a useless debate and neither side really has much evidence than perhaps a few scholarly articles supporting both sides based on an unrepresentative sample without sufficient data to rule out environmental and other factors... So don't waste time replying to me consider my mentality wrong, dumb, whatever you wish. Makes no difference to me.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Friends, please discuss the issues, not one another. Asking for evidence or pointing out the lack thereof is fine, but making assertions about another member puts you on dangerous ground.

I remind everyone of two rules:

*7. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will refrain from assassinating the character of another. – In heated discussion there is a tendency to malign the character of an opponent. Care must be taken in the wording of all statements of denigration to not single out any individual. An example is instead of saying “You are a liar” (an unacceptable accusation) nearly the same sentiment can be expressed as, “I believe you are mistaken”. Though the foregoing appears to be almost identical in the stated sentiment there is one major difference, the former attacks another’s character of honesty whereas the latter refers to a possible error having been made… this is a BIG distinction in any argument. Also refer to the larger group rather than a single individual when trying to make statements of a derogatory nature. Example: “You are a reckless breeder for not obtaining health certifications before breeding” (this being an example of an unacceptable attack on someone’s character) rather instead use “I feel all breeders who breed their dogs without obtaining health certifications prior is being reckless”. Again, the difference in meaning might seem non-existent but the earlier statement directly attacks a specific individual’s character whereas the latter is an expression of attitude toward a whole class, yet in effect making it understood that “if the shoe fits…” 

13. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will treat other members with respect. The Golden Retriever Forum relies on its members to self-monitor in terms of rudeness that is just gratuitous. It is one thing to focus passionately on a topic; it is another thing to call someone an offensive name or to be condescending. We hold golden temperaments on high, so let's see our members be friendly to one another as well, even when disagreements occur. You may respectfully disagree with a member’s point of view but do not assault the member personally, or be rude in your responses. Do not use statements that incite conflicts among members. This could include such things as rehashing conflicts from past or closed topics. Do not make abusive, hateful, harassing, or threatening statements. Do not make statements that are untrue, misleading or based on rumors. If a thread starts getting heated, take it to a mod, NOT PUBLIC. Those who do not follow this can be warned, suspended or banned.*

This thread discusses an important issue. Please keep it friendly.

Thank you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CITIgolden said:


> Where is your evidence to show that corn does not increases incidence of cancer? Show me a longevity representative cancer meta study when you make a statement like that. I can go on and on about every single ingredient you mention.


Show me that chicken doesn't cause cancer. Or thinking too hard. Or dancing the Charleston. Without a reason to to think that it might, there's no reason to prove the contrary. The burden would be on the person who claims that it does, not on the person who claims that there's no evidence it does.

The scientific process does not require that you disprove the contrary of a position if there is no evidence for it in the first place. So until somebody provides some reason to think that corn causes cancer, there's no reason to go around disproving it.



CITIgolden said:


> Not sure where the god syndrome for some people on here is coming from.


Asking people to supply evidence is not a "god syndrome." Neither is principled disagreement. You may resent that you're being asked to back up what you say, but that's no reason to insult other posters.



CITIgolden said:


> But this is NOT how science works and since you are merely disagreeing with the other poster don't pretend you have evidence to support your claims. Just because something is done, does not make it right. The fact is that we do not know if corn, since we are sticking to it, is good for dogs, but that also does not mean it's bad. Any claim otherwise is complete intellectual laziness and the black and white view of the world...


The claim I've actually made is that there is no evidence that shows it's harmful and plenty, in the form of a bazillion AAFCO trials and literally a million dogs, that shows it's fine. Sure, we don't know for sure that corn is ideal for dogs in the sense that nobody seems to have done a longitudinal longevity study to compare kibbles with corn vs. those with oatmeal or potato. But we have no reason to think otherwise, and certainly no reason to think it's inferior to potatoes or any other vegetable source that dogs readily thrive on. If you compare popular carbohydrate sources in dog food (e.g., corn, potato, oatmeal, etc.), they don't have substantive nutritional differences that would affect a dog. There's plenty of evidence for that. And there's plenty of evidence that suggests that corn isn't a common allergen, which is the other reason it's often cited as a bad thing for dogs. So there's lots of evidence that suggests it's safe, and again, really nothing that suggests it's inferior except a lot of hot air on dog food websites.

And there are lots of longevity studies that relate to food. What those studies have shown is that how fat the dog is what matters when it comes to longevity. But nobody has been able show that corn vs. potato vs. raw has any tangible benefits. If people devoted 10% of this dog food debate energy to keeping their dogs trim, they'd actually get some tangible benefits. Instead, they liken corn to smoking and kibble to junk food when all the evidence screams that how much you feed your dog matters more than which brand. The number of people on GRF who lecture the rest of us about how our food is junk but show chubby dogs in their signatures just staggers me.



CITIgolden said:


> We've been drinking alcohol for thousands of years yet it's quite controversial to health after many many longevity based studies and we can ascertain that in large quantities it's harmful.


Yes. Because of evidence. Wouldn't it be frustrating if somebody said "10 beers a day is safe" and then got mad at you for asking for evidence?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CITIgolden said:


> Also I think when you say 15000 years of corn use in dog you're a bit more than off historically/scientifically speaking....perhaps rice, but even rice not for 15,000 yrs unless you want to make claims that dogs ancestors used to graze but then we can make claims that dinosaurs lived 5000 years ago alongside men.


I didn't say dogs ate corn 15,000 years ago, and I think you know that. I was referring to the fact that dog domestication took place somewhere around then, or perhaps much earlier. And there's lots of evidence to suggest that, beginning then, dogs began to evolve the ability to digest starches. And regardless of which domestication theory you buy into about how we got dogs, all of them agree that proto-dogs ate their humans' scraps, including vegetable sources, very early in the process.

When they actually began eating "corn" is unclear, and there's an interesting subtopic here because humans have been selecting and then breeding their crops for desired characteristics since pre-history (5,000-10,000 years ago), and thus changing their nutritional content. What we think of as corn appeared in the archaeological record as maize rather suddenly, and it's quite different from its wild ancestor. And modern corn is different from that ancient maize. However, a similar selection process has taken place for _every_ domesticated food source, including potatoes, rice, oatmeal, and even meat sources like chicken and beef. One might as well ask for studies proving that chicken doesn't cause cancer because it's different than the early bird species that wolves would have eaten.



CITIgolden said:


> With all due respect, your posts are full of your opinions packaged as science.


With all due respect, your posts contain more insults about other forum members than citations to scholarly sources. 



CITIgolden said:


> I don't see that as much more than an opinion. And yes you are doing not much more than merely advocating one approach based on those opinions.


Really? I mostly feel like I'm splitting my time between defending people against insults from the food moralizers and shooting down unsubstantiated claims about food. I don't think I've advocated anything remotely like "one approach." I have no problem with duck and potato foods or premium kibbles. If the dog is thriving, I'm happy, and I wouldn't tell the owner to switch. I have never once commented that your Orijen and tripe thing is a bad idea, and I don't think it is, though I don't think it's for everyone, since some folks might have a hard time keeping a dog trim with such a high calorie recipe.

I never even say that what we feed—Eukanuba—is better than other brands because I'm not entirely convinced that it is. I say what I think the evidence supports: most of the popular claims about dog food are hokum and get passed around because they _sound_ good, not because they're based on evidence.

If I had one approach, it would be that I want evidence when people claim something is superior or inferior.


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## Emz (Feb 25, 2013)

Just thought id give my thpughts. Since the poor op was just asking about food options and the post has gone crazy.....
We are feeding acana. Its a bit lower in price and protein then orijin. Its a good food, no fillers low allergy risk. We have feed our last 2 dogs acana as well. Always did really well. Long lfe, healthy dogs 

The best thing you can do for your family memebers is love, train them, and feed them well.
Whatever you feed, there will always be pros and cons. Some dogs do better on different brands. Its just like humans some do better with different foods. 

Does not mean ones better then the other, just works for that dog. 
Good luck with your puppy they are great fun and work but it pays off!


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## Mom28kds (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm sorry I caused such a heated debate. I just really wanted some ideas of some good options that would be beneficial for my pup.


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## MomMom (Mar 29, 2013)

We just started mixing Purina One into her Puppy Chow that she was on from the breeder. We are on a very tight budget also. I am a stay at home mom and have health issues and my husband is a truck driver. I looked into Pro Plan and in my opinion, unless you feed the Selects version of it, it isn't any better than the Purina One.


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## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

Mom28kds said:


> I'm sorry I caused such a heated debate. I just really wanted some ideas of some good options that would be beneficial for my pup.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Food is very different for everyone. My Charlie started out on Iams & had some issues with that & another chicken based food. We tried a salmon based food & had bigger problems. Limited ingredient lamb & rice seems to work best. So many people have had good & bad experiences with so many brands I think that's part of why its a tricky topic. We are currently switching from California Natural to Natural Balance due to a recall in the California Natural. I wish picking foods was easier.....


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## Emz (Feb 25, 2013)

You shouldnt feel bad, or apologize. Im sorry that peopletook this thread way off course. No need for that! 
Have fun with your puppy


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Mom28kds said:


> I'm sorry I caused such a heated debate. I just really wanted some ideas of some good options that would be beneficial for my pup.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You have done absolutely nothing wrong. This subject often causes heated debates. If people can't express opinions without being rude to one another, that is hardly your fault! 

One of our senior members who is an experienced breeder points out that a number of champion dogs are on ProPlan and she uses it herself. If you use the GRF search feature, you will turn up a lot of threads that discuss different foods. 

Best of luck with your puppy.


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## Onsa&PorterATX (Apr 23, 2013)

We have fed several different foods over the years. My GSD is one of those dogs with a sensitive stomach so it took awhile to find one that she does well on. She ate proplan and then nutro, had the runs with both. Then we switched to grain free Innova and she did really well. Then it was recalled and we couldn't find it anywhere--so we switched to Merrick. My dogs do really well on Merrick and I like supporting a company that is based in my home state, so we have stuck with it. Porter does well on any food (as evidenced by him breaking into the food at daycare and chowing down on some proplan recently without any tummy issues at all) but I keep him on Merrick because he does well on whatever and its easiest to feed both dogs the same food. 
My vet has an additional Masters degree in animal nutrition. She said Merrick is a fine food choice. But you know what else? All of her dogs eat pro plan plus most fruits and vegetables her family eats. She printed out a list of great "people" foods for dogs for me and my iddos love a lot of them...pumpkin, apple slices, carrots, yogurt, etc.She is also supportive of raw feeding if and only if the owner properly researches how to feed a dog this way and doesn't just start throwing random meat at them. Dogs are omnivores, and can eat a variety of things.
I guess all I'm trying to say is different dogs do well on different foods and YOU will be able to tell what your dog is thriving on. As far as specific suggestions, I would reccomend any of the foods I mentioned above. They were all foods my vet approved when looking for a good fit for Onsa and I know dogs on each of them that are healthy and loved and happy.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Mom28kds said:


> I'm sorry I caused such a heated debate. I just really wanted some ideas of some good options that would be beneficial for my pup.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You are not the cause of this debate, you were simply asking advice/information regarding different foods availalble on the market and member's experience with what works for their dog(s).

My two Goldens are on Purina Pro Plan for Sensitive Skin and Stomach and doing very well on it. It was recommended to me by several members here on the forum that feed various formulas of Purina Pro Plan.

Not all dog food works well for all dogs, the key is finding what works for your dog and sticking with it. In other words, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

My dogs were previously on a variety of BB formulas prior to switching to the PPP SS, the BB was not working for them. I know many dogs that do well on BB, mine did not.

What was your breeder feeding her and her littermates?

Hope you are able to find one that works for you.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Mom28kds said:


> My 11 week old is currently using Iams puppy. I bought it before I found GRF. She is very small at 7.4 lbs. I am on a budget but would like to get some food that would help her. I see lots of Pro Plan users. Would that be best? How do you decide whether to get the SS or regular? Is there another food that would be better?


If you are on a budget there is no food that comes close to PMI Exclusive. PMI Exclusive is sold at feed stores and was part of Purina but was sold when Nestle bought Purina. It is now owned by the Coop Land O Lakes. Essentially, PMI Exclusive is the original Pro Plan formula. You simply will not find a better food for the money. It such a value because there is no middleman. I would say a 35lb bag is about $30, and you get a free bag with every 6 bags you buy.

The food is made by the company that makes Precise. Any place that sells PMI horse feed will have it or can order it. I imagine in Ohio you can get it easily.

Really excellent food.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

For the corn gospel crowd, here are some health considerations for personal health:

Everyone, I hope knows that the corn we eat is almost entirely GMO'd and the EU and other countries ban US corn imports due to safety concerns and studies done by the world health organization as well as those chartered by the European Commission. Furthermore, the WTO disputes over US beef exports largely stem over use of antibiotics and GM'd feed.

http://www.businessinsider.com/monsantos-roundup-and-resistant-corn-found-to-be-toxic-2012-9

http://research.sustainablefoodtrust.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Final-Paper.pdf

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/sis5219


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CITIgolden said:


> For the corn gospel crowd, here are some health considerations for personal health:
> 
> Everyone, I hope knows that the corn we eat is almost entirely GMO'd and the EU and other countries ban US corn imports due to safety concerns and studies done by the world health organization as well as those chartered by the European Commission. Furthermore, the WTO disputes over US beef exports largely stem over use of antibiotics and GM'd feed.
> 
> ...


FYI - For those too lazy to click. The first two links refer to the same study of 200 rats, all of which developed tumors. I'm not sure why CITI listed them as two different links as if they were separate sources. Yes, _all_ the rats in the study developed tumors, those fed pesticide, those fed GMO corn, and those not fed either. None of the links listed refer to any of the topics discussed in the post (EU bans on US corn, WHO studies, etc.). The third is not about any of these issues but contains maps of where different US crops are grown.

Also, it is factually inaccurate to say that "the EU and other countries ban US corn imports due to safety concerns and studies done by the world health organization as well as those chartered by the European Commission." The EU has banned different GMO crops on and off since they were first developed and does not currently ban US corn imports.

If I'm incorrect on the current state of the bans, please let me know, but nothing I can find supports the claim that the UP "bans US corn imports due to safety concerns." Indeed, I was able to find an article from this week about how the EU does import GMO corn from the US.

I'd also like to see these WHO studies that led to this supposed ban, as I've never heard of them.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

A "flawed study".........

Good crop, bad crop: French scientists dismiss Monsanto 'cancer corn' study

Does genetically modified corn cause cancer? A flawed study fails to convince.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

The study was very controversial due to the small the control group and species of rat however not so flawed to make the results ingorable


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## maizy's mom (Nov 21, 2012)

Mom28kids, I am hardly an expert on what is the best dog food, but I do believe that what your dog tolerates, likes and the affordibility of the food, is probably Whats best. My maizy is 16 months old, and sadly, I fed her beneful for several months until I educated myself on food quality. Several months ago I switched her to Fromm, and I am very happy. She tolerates it well,has a silky, shiny coat, and seems to really enjoy the different flavors.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

The OP asked for advice about food for a puppy. Please keep to the subject of the thread and take other subjects elsewhere.

Thank you.


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## smithfamily (Dec 17, 2012)

Although it's a little terrifying to comment on this thread, I wanted to point out a couple of more things.  When I was trying to figure out foods, I didn't know how to figure out some of the basics, like how much protein and fat to consider. Here is an article that I found helpful: Dog Food FAQs: Protein

Also, something else that I feel is really important to consider in a food for a Golden puppy is the amount of calcium. There is a concern that too much calcium could contribute to joint dysplasia. I finally decided that I really wasn't comfortable going over 1.5%, but many manufacturers don't say whether it's the minimum or maximum amount in their food. For instance I really like NutriSource Adult, but the calcium is listed at 1.52%, they don't say if that's the minimum amount or maximum amount. If it's minimum then it could be well over that amount and putting me into a less comfortable range. 

I recently decided that I'm going to switch to Dr. Tim's Kinesis for the lower calcium (0.97%) and the fact that he says the protein source from animals is 80%, so only 20% is coming from plants (I learned this on his Facebook page). This is another area that is hard to figure out since many companies don't post this information. I would rather have a much higher percentage of animal protein than plant protein. Also the ash (bone) is 5.8%, so it's below 7%, which was also my goal.

So, there are some things to consider in addition to the basic ingredients. Thankfully many of the food websites list this information. Also, pay attention to the number of calories in a cup of food, you will feed less of the higher calorie ones, which might make the more expensive foods more affordable.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Mom28kds said:


> I'm sorry I caused such a heated debate. I just really wanted some ideas of some good options that would be beneficial for my pup.


Not your fault, and sorry if you found any of my posts heated. Food is a really complicated issue with lots of perspectives—some based on evidence, so less so. There are many controversial ingredients, some of which deserve the controversy and some of which don't, and several controversial brands.

My advice is to go all the way back to what Swampcollie told you:



Swampcollie said:


> If she's been through the stress of coccidia, I would not even consider changing foods at this time. Stay with the Iams you've been using for at least another month or two. Don't get on the revolving food wagon, you can do a lot more harm than good.
> 
> In the past I raised a lot of puppies on yellow bags of Iams Puppy. It's not a bad food so don't worry about it causing harm to your pup. There have been literally millions of puppies raised on Iams Puppy.


Your pup has been sick and has been thriving on the Iams puppy. Don't mess around with it. I wouldn't change in the short term.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

CITIgolden said:


> For the corn gospel crowd, here are some health considerations for personal health:
> 
> Everyone, I hope knows that the corn we eat is almost entirely GMO'd and the EU and other countries ban US corn imports due to safety concerns and studies done by the world health organization as well as those chartered by the European Commission. Furthermore, the WTO disputes over US beef exports largely stem over use of antibiotics and GM'd feed.
> 
> ...


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

smithfamily said:


> Although it's a little terrifying to comment on this thread, I wanted to point out a couple of more things.  When I was trying to figure out foods, I didn't know how to figure out some of the basics, like how much protein and fat to consider. Here is an article that I found helpful: Dog Food FAQs: Protein
> 
> Also, something else that I feel is really important to consider in a food for a Golden puppy is the amount of calcium. There is a concern that too much calcium could contribute to joint dysplasia. I finally decided that I really wasn't comfortable going over 1.5%, but many manufacturers don't say whether it's the minimum or maximum amount in their food. For instance I really like NutriSource Adult, but the calcium is listed at 1.52%, they don't say if that's the minimum amount or maximum amount. If it's minimum then it could be well over that amount and putting me into a less comfortable range.
> 
> ...


Dr. Tim's is one of two dry foods I would use, good choice.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Something worth noting since calcium levels were mentioned, is the calcium level is less important than the calcium: phosphorous ratio. Calcium is necessary for proper bone growth and remodeling as well as for proper muscle function. Phosphorus is also necessary for proper bone formation. Calcium needs to be present not only at a particular level but also at an appropriate amount with respect to phosphorus. The calcium to phosphorus ratio should be between 1.1 : 1.4 -1. If the phosphorus level is too high, calcium levels in the body can
become too low. If this occurs, the body will start to remove calcium from the bones. The result can be lameness, spontaneous bone fractures, and kidney problems. If too much calcium is fed, especially to large breed dogs when they are young, bone growth can actually be decreased and problems such as OCD and hip dysplasia can result. HVN recommends calcium at .5-.9% for adult dogs and double that for puppies and pregnant/nursing dogs. Similar levels are recommended for cats. Phosphorus is recommended at .2-.8% for adult dogs, .8-1.4% for puppies and pregnant/nursing dogs.


Source:
http://www.allpetsmacomb.com/choosingapetfood.html



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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Tuco said:


> The study was very controversial due to the small the control group and species of rat however not so flawed to make the results ingorable
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This pretty much sums it up (from the Forbes article I linked)....

_....If GM corn causes cancer, why aren’t Americans “dropping like flies,“ as one scientist asked? We’ve been eating Monsanto‘s Roundup Ready® corn for over a decade, even if most of us aren’t aware of it. But our rates of cancer haven’t increased more than Europeans, who eat far less GM corn. Maybe the effect is limited to rats – in which case we should also have seen dramatic increases in cancer in lab rats. But we haven’t seen that either...._

The study is garbage.


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## smithfamily (Dec 17, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Something worth noting since calcium levels were mentioned, is the calcium level is less important than the calcium: phosphorous ratio.
> 
> 
> I have yet to find a commercial dog food that doesn't have a calcium/phosphorus ratio in this range. Are you aware of any that have this and we should avoid? I would love to know specific formulas to watch out for in case we have to switch in the future. Although I will worry less once we are past the 6 month mark.
> ...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

smithfamily said:


> I have yet to find a commercial dog food that doesn't have a calcium/phosphorus ratio in this range.


I've noticed a few adult-only premium foods have calcium and phosphorus outside of the range that's recommended for large breed puppies. But I haven't seen anything AAFCO-certified for all life stages or for puppies that did.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

smithfamily said:


> goldenjackpuppy said:
> 
> 
> > Something worth noting since calcium levels were mentioned, is the calcium level is less important than the calcium: phosphorous ratio.
> ...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Personally I think 35% protein is way too high. Higher protein is not better for a growing puppy of a larger breed, like a golden. Please remember the op asked about food for her puppy. 


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

WasChampionFan said:


> CITIgolden said:
> 
> 
> > For the corn gospel crowd, here are some health considerations for personal health:
> ...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Please keep the thread on topic. Additionally, please keep personal issues out of this thread or it will be closed. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

CITIgolden said:


> WasChampionFan said:
> 
> 
> > Yes all the studies are discredited by "reputable" organization whenever some special interest doesn't like results. That's beside the point I originally made, which still stands very much true - there HAS Not BEEN A representative LONGEVITY STUDY TO SHOW NUTRITIONAL IMPACT of foods we feed ON DOG's health. So we can discuss anecdotes here and the study I cited is an anecdotal study in an opinion of someone who'd be classified as a scientist, albeit the "nanny type" "liberal" and whatever else you called me.
> ...


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

This thread is not an appropriate place to discuss studies on use of corn or other products in food, however valuable that discussion might be. 

The OP asked for recommendations about food for her puppy. Please stick to that topic and refrain from attacking others who post here.

Thank you.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Too bad there's not ONE thread where people can debate kibble / manufacturers / ingredients etc. and stop doing it in almost every food thread on here.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

GoldensGirl said:


> This thread is not an appropriate place to discuss studies on use of corn or other products in food, however valuable that discussion might be.
> 
> The OP asked for recommendations about food for her puppy. Please stick to that topic and refrain from attacking others who post here.
> 
> Thank you.


I completely agree, but as long as we have people making statements of fact based on either flawed science, or no science at all, there will be a need for people to respond, regardless of the thread topic. You know who the usual suspects are.....


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

To the OP, I use a kibble that has a good reputation, and I add in a bit of what we have (meat, vegetables etc), and about once a week I get a bone that I ask the butcher to slice down the middle so he can get the marrow. The bone keeps him happy and busy and he'll keep on going back to it when he wants. I have always done this and it's always worked for my dogs. Good poo, good coat, happy dog, happy me! 


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It drives me absolutely nuts when I read the absolute crap that is continually pushed off as fact. "It's GREAT because dogfoodwhateveritis.com gives it a half a billion star rating". 

Really????

Those rating sites are nothing but the "Opinion" of somebody with no credible experience in animal nutrition what so ever. NONE, ZIP, NADA!

Granted I'm old and very conservative when it comes to feeding my dogs and my clients dogs. I look to Proven RESULTS generated from long term life long feeding trials for a basis to make educated decisions about what exactly a "good" food is. Then I feed them to measure the actual results with the dogs in my care over the long term. I also look at the dogs of others who have experience caring for numerous dogs. Do they look good and perform well? Are they healthy? That is how you measure what works and what doesn't. 

If a company does not do long term feeding trials, they're really just making a guess about the results their products will deliver. They really don't know and YOUR dog is serving as their lab rat. 

There are only a small handful of companies that do long actual term feeding trials with a significant number of dogs. None of them are making the fad diets that are often touted in these food threads. 

There are numerous overpriced under performing products on the market. Are they "different" from the more traditional kibble? Yes, they are different. BUT are they "Better" products? NO, they are not. They do not deliver better results in normal healthy dogs even though they may cost three or four times as much to feed. 

The O.P. asked a question with regards to feeding a puppy that has spent a substantial portion of its young life sick with a communicable disease. A pup in that situation has been under a LOT of stress. It does NOT need MORE stress added to its life by making changes in its diet. What is best for this pup is a consistent, stable environment and food that it is accustomed too. 

There are a couple of people (and you know who you are) who jump into every thread and attempt to push a Champion Product. It's getting real old seeing that crap over and over again on every food thread.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

He's just one guy, but I would take Swampcollie's word for it over that of dogfoodadvisor.com. 

Well said. 


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Swampcollie - I'm seriously not sure if you are talking to me or not. I never mentioned the words Orijen or Champion in this thread until someone else who wanted to bash it brought it up. Also, I left this thread back on page 5 (over 2 days ago) and have not made another comment until now. Currently on page 10. 

Every other day someone starts a new thread something to the effect of "What food should I feed?" Orijen has been a dream come true for my senior Golden who suffered miserably for 10 years with fungal and bacterial infections. Off and on antibiotics and anti-fungals. Also, on atopica (a powerful immunosuppressant). She either had weeping sores on her belly and paws or her belly was black and hairless. I tried IAMS, Eukanuba, Canidae, and Wellness. None of them helped. Since I put her on Orijen she has been off ALL medicine for about 6 months. It might be too early to tell for sure, but this is the longest she has been without drugs since she was a pup. The skin on her belly is pale pink and has thick hair. She never had hair on her belly before. She no longer licks her paws. Sorry for my enthusiasm, but I dearly love my girl. She is the sweetest dog ever and I'm thrilled she will most likely live her final years in comfort. 

Are you saying that when someone asks "What food should I feed?" I should not suggest the food that changed mine and my dogs life? And, my puppy is thriving on as well? Other people are able to suggest their food without the firing squad. What is it with the Champion haters? If you are not talking about me, is it "Tuco"? He doesn't even feed Orjien.

I'm not a moderator, but this thread got way out of hand a long time ago. Around the time I left it on page 5. Not sure why it's not locked down. Sorry, I came back. Thought I was being talked about. I'm leaving.... again.


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

First, I'd like to apologize for ever engaging in a scientific debate on this forum and promise never to do that again. The value of this forum, for me, is the experience of people who come here. If I am interested in science or textbooks I have other, dare i say better resources, the arguments I have made go in line with 1 point and 1 point alone. 

Anecdotal evidence vs. actual scientific consensus. Some people on here accuse of "false" science and counter it with anecdotal examples of other more or less false anecdotal science - I'm sorry if that's not that obvious but I also apologize for furthering such debate which leads nowhere. 

I think this post has gone astray waaaay off topic and my modest proposal to the moderators would be to close it, given that some other posts with much less controversy have been closed. It's not kind to accuse people of belonging to certain groups, accusing them of giving false science when such science has been prefaced with a rationale etc. 

The sad truth that we all have to eat up no matter what you throw on here, is that there is really no scientific consensus on what is "appropriate food for dogs" - there's never been such a study and please don't cite dubious sites. 

Again, experience from everyone on here is valuable, but that makes it far from science. So with all due respect, when one says this kind of food vs. another kind of food - you're just fighting marketing wars for food companies. Personally, since I've been called, yes hell I feed the dumb Orijen but I want to switch to raw because I am getting more convinced it makes sense. I don't work for Champion and I think they price gauge us. At the same time, I don't care much for companies that use rendered meat of euthanized animals or otherwise rendered meats as protein in their food and get full blown AAFCO approval and do tests on animals. I've performed more than one biopsy and lab analysis of dogs that have eaten all sorts of things, including poisoned dogs, that people wouldn't imagine, and their age is estimated to be in mid-teens without really any other health issues. The same way you can have a 95yo smoker and alcoholic you can have a 15yo dog on junk food...does that make it a healthy lifestyle - NO! Do we know what should be a healthy lifestyle for dogs - uhmmm, I'd say maybe, maybe not really because we've spent so much time and effort domesticating them that their evolutionary biology has not had time to adjust. And that's very well fine. On top of all, obesity in dogs, and people, is probably far worse than whatever food you feed. 

For some more cynical members on who posted various threads, this is an excellent read - just assume that most educated people will see through immediately, also plenty of reads on red herring argumentation: 

EPZ How to Win Every Argument: The Use and Abuse of Logic: Madsen Pirie: 9780826498946: Amazon.com: Books

Once more, I apologize to those offended by my posts and for everything people deem wrong (which I still think is taken out of the broader context but it's a mute point) - I should not engage and will not. Will you now please focus on the OP and share your experience and advice with her instead of throwing semi-cynical high school below belt stabs. Thank you all for participating and taking the time to share your experiences! Again because we don't have good conclusive scientific consensuses places like this are invaluable and you all are contributing to a greater good - the health of our dear dogs!


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

*What & Why abridged version*

IMHO. Maybe sticky thread to post what you feed and why with no discussion ,debate,bashing promotion just what , why and maybe price range. I know when I got my first dog as a young adult I purchase the food with the cute commercial that was advertised the the most on television . I now know that that food was not the best choice even for the money. I find it interesting and informative just to hear the what food and why. I am happy with the food I feed Roxy but should something change I would find it helpful to have a thread to go to maybe base the next choice on. I think that everyone on this forum is intelligent and wanting to further their"education" regarding the health of their dog or they would not be looking. Sometimes debate just muddies the water and you just wanted someone to throw a few ideas out there to help you make your own informed decision.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

These dog food threads never end up well as everyone has an opinion they feel is the only correct answer. Everyone seems to believe they have the "holy grail" of all dog foods and all others are just as bad as feeding cardboard. Feed your dog whatever they do best on as there is no one superior brand that is best for every dog out there. Some dogs do not react well to certain brands that many others may do well on. I encourage people to seek out what dog food your dogs may do well on. Feel free to ask questions and see why others may feed what they do to their dogs. I do not encourage people attacking other people on here because they feel others feed a "lesser" brand of dog food compared to what they feed.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

WoW.....I remember my first question on the forum aside from breeders....it was about food....kinda turned the same way....

OP - some very sound advice on staying with Iams since your puppy has been through so much.

Most of my puppies were raised on Nutro and Iams. They did fine. My border collies were raised on Innova. They did fine too. My next puppy might get fed Wellness since my guys are now on Wellness and they LOVE it.

Iams and Nutro were great for my puppies. They lived full long lives with no cancers.


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## MomMom (Mar 29, 2013)

We like Pro Plan Focus Large Breed Puppy. Great food, rated well, and fits our budget.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

This is for the members who called the Seralini study "flawed" & "garbage" ... maybe you know something these scientists don't ...

Scientists support Séralini Archives - GMO Seralini

http://gmoseralini.org/french-academy-of-sciences-the-gmo-scandal/

Institute for Responsible Technology - Please Stop Dangerous Attacks on ALL Independent GMO Researchers

http://gmoseralini.org/category/critics-answered/

http://www.naturalnews.com/039170_GMOs_rat_tumors_Seralini_study.html

Institute for Responsible Technology - Scientists Under Attack


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

T&T said:


> This is for the members who called the Seralini study "flawed" & "garbage" ... maybe you know something these scientists don't ...
> 
> Scientists support Séralini Archives - GMO Seralini
> 
> ...


I didn't see anything there that adequately addresses the critiques of the study. 


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

In for the ride.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Nairb said:


> I didn't see anything there that adequately addresses the critiques of the study.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not to worry ... Monsanto just placed one of their "former" employees on the EDITORIAL BOARD of the journal that published this Seralini study to ensure that we are never again troubled by independant research into the safety of it's products ... 
Former Monsanto employee put in charge of GMO papers at journal


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

The puppy may be doing well on Iams but will do alot better on a higher quality food,,,,wouldn't you think?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Let's not forget that the word "quality" is subjective when it comes to dog food. What works well for one dog may not work well for another. Just because a food is grain free or made by a smaller company does not make a food superior. I can attest to that with my own dogs, who are thriving on a food manufactured by a larger company when we used to feed a grain free food widely thought to be "superior quality." I go by my dogs' coats, energy level, etc. not what a dog food rating site says.


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## Jack Meirod (May 29, 2013)

New guy here, first post. I am due to pick up my first Golden pup in a month and am really, really excited. I've been reading up on all the food options, from raw to premium grain free, to name brands like Eukanuba, and my head is spinning. 

My view is it's penny wise and pound foolish to save a few bucks feeding lower quality dog food if it is reasonably likely that could lead to expensive and emotionally devastating health problems. However, I hear plenty of people say that their dogs do absolutely fine on Eukanuba, for example, or other commercial food. My breeder feeds Eukanuba and I'm sure that's what I'll be doing to start and will see how the puppy does.

The raw feeding concept makes a lot of sense to me, but I know I won't have the time or energy to do the prep myself and have looked into Darwins Naturals. 

My question is, if the dog looks healthy, seems to like the food, has normal stools and good energy, would you change from Eukanuba to something else just because Eukanuba isn't "premium". I've also read reviews by people who say that Blue Willderness, or Innova, or Wellness or some other premium food didn't agree with their pup, so I'm not sure why I'd change if the dog does well on what its eating.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Jack Meirod said:


> New guy here, first post. I am due to pick up my first Golden pup in a month and am really, really excited. I've been reading up on all the food options, from raw to premium grain free, to name brands like Eukanuba, and my head is spinning.
> 
> My view is it's penny wise and pound foolish to save a few bucks feeding lower quality dog food if it is reasonably likely that could lead to expensive and emotionally devastating health problems. However, I hear plenty of people say that their dogs do absolutely fine on Eukanuba, for example, or other commercial food. My breeder feeds Eukanuba and I'm sure that's what I'll be doing to start and will see how the puppy does.
> 
> ...


Welcome and congratualtions on your upcoming pup.

I believe in the if it's not broke, don't fix it philosophy. 

My two adult goldens are currently eating Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach. It was recommended to me by several members on this forum when my boy that I adopted was having stomach issues. 

There are a lot of members feeding Purina Pro Plan products, there are several members using Eukanuba and are very happy with it. I would at least stick with the Eukanuba for some time after bringing your pup home. Then if you feel there's a need to change further down the road, do so.

Each dog is different, some foods work great for one dog while it might not work for another. PPP SS works great for my two adults. Until a problem arises, I see no reason to make a change. This is what works for my two.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

It's what works best for your dog.
My guys did great on Innova Evo all their lives. When Max turned one I put him on Innova, he had come in eating Purina Pro Plan chicken and did beautifully on it.
When I put my border collie on Innova he did OK. Max did OK. But with the recent Innova recall I decided to try Wellness Core and my boys just BLOSSOMED. Max's and Billy's coat have an unbelievable shine, they lost weight, and their energy level has gone way up. Billy, who's 11, is acting like a youngster. His dry skin is gone. I don't have to supplement anymore. 
So, it's what works well for your dog.


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## Jack Meirod (May 29, 2013)

Thank you both for confirming what I view as a reasonable approach. I'll have enough to do and think about initially without worrying about switching foods.

Next up -- clicker training or some other method. But that's for another thread.


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