# Breeding - where to start and anyone in WI?



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi. Welcome.

Let's start with the basics.

Your girl is going to need OFA certifications for hips and elbows, you'll need an annual eye certification from a veterinary ophthalmologist, and a heart clearance from a veterinary cardiologist. And that's really just the beginning. There are all sorts of genetic and epigenetic issues to learn about. Do your girl's parents have clearances? Her grandparents?

Is your girl registered with the AKC on a "full" registration? If not, give up the notion of getting a decent stud. Do you have her pedigree? Are her sire and dam listed on K9data.com?

Also, have you "proved" your girl in any venue as being an excellent example of the breed? Are you familiar with the breed standard? You should be. You can find it here: https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/akc-breed-standard/. Are you a member of the Golden Retriever Club of America? You should join. This is the entity tasked with deciding what a Golden Retriever is and what it is not.

Then, you're going to have to learn to analyze pedigrees, and find a stud that matches what you want from your girl (and you have to learn what you want to get, what you want to improve on, what you want to correct, and what you want to avoid), and that can be a long and involved process.

Studs usually get cash. Sometimes they get a puppy back, if it's a breeding they are really excited about.

You have a lot to learn, so you should start. And you probably shouldn't breed until you've learned. Perhaps you could get a mentor. And you might start by going to avidog.com and signing up for some of their materials and taking some of their courses. You wouldn't perform a root canal without learning a lot about dentistry first, and you shouldn't jump into breeding without a similar education about that subject.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

It's actually common for some top breeders not to have a website or advertise. Their puppies are sold long before they're born and they have way more inquiries than puppies. You've received good advice from Dana already, she is very knowledgeable. The more you know about your girl and her family history the better. If she has limited and not full registration, you will not be able to breed her, especially to a good stud. Stud dog owners should be just as cautious with who they breed to as the bitch's owner. They will want hip, elbow, heart and eye clearances with eyes completed every year. They will want Brucellosis testing completed just before breeding. If you're not familiar with Brucellosis you can google it. You may also want to perform genetic testing. Ichthyosis, prcd-PRA, and PRA1 are necessary if the stud dog is not clear. Money is usually exchanged for stud fee, with at least a few hundred dollar deposit required before conception. I also recommend you find a very knowledgeable mentor as soon as possible if you're set on breeding your current girl. Breeding healthy Goldens is not as simple as one would think and having a mentor who's familiar with researching pedigrees and health issues is invaluable. It could take years of research and discussion to really understand breeding the way you need to. Have you found your local club or reached out to them in any way?

And please remember, you can not advertise here to sell puppies or to find a stud dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Online postings are really not the best route. Let's just start there. 

Wisconsin has quite a few really good breeders and they have active clubs. Start there. Reach out in person and on the phone. Look to join the clubs and begin attending meetings and get yourself out there. 

A lot of us simply worship our dogs.... and flattery comes very easy from strangers when they see and appreciate very nice dogs. But you may have easy flattery for dogs who aren't really that great for breeding stock - not even touching on the core health areas that require clearances. Your average dog lover isn't going to know the difference. And even pictures online aren't the best way to do justice to a dog or clearly discern weak areas that might get compounded by somebody (a) not knowing they are there and (b) breeding to a dog who has the same problems. 

A breeder's job isn't just putting dogs together to make beautiful puppies to sell. When you are breeding a golden retriever... your goals should ideally be along the lines of "do no harm" to the breed at the very least. It does require more breed education and aspiring breeders seeking experienced and decent mentors in the breed. Good decent mentors are people who make difficult choices that hurt their green dollar bottom line sometimes but go a long way to hold up the high expectations that people may have regarding the puppies they produce. 

The clearances that are required with golden retrievers are passing OFA clearances for hips, elbows, eyes, and hearts. 

Hips and elbows both need passing clearances - and the grades are fair, good, and excellent for hips and "normal" for elbows. And keep in mind with OFA, there is no way to fudge these clearances. Your average puppy buyer can go on OFA and look things up on a breeding dog. This is a big reason why some shady people out there are steering away from OFA or finding "excuses" for not getting OFA clearances on breeding stock. Because it limits what they can breed without being questioned or looking "bad" for cutting corners. 

Big problem with "english type" golden retrievers are many breeders may have weaker clearances behind their breeding stock. Some lines are more prone to elbow problems, for example (because in europe they allow for breeding dogs who have minor elbow dysplasia). So if I own a English bred golden, my first concern isn't just getting the clearances on my dog - but I'm also concerned about looking into the health clearance history behind my dog. Ideally, you want to see the last 3-5 generations of clearances behind a breeding dog. 

Other issues that you probably need to dig into if you have an European bred golden retriever - you need to look into genetic tests for PRA (retinal atrophy problems) and ichythosis (skin problem). These genetic tests address issues that affect all goldens, but like with ichythosis seem to be more extreme with European lines for whatever reason. 

Coat quality, structure, heads, pigment, bite, eye color, temperament - these are things or areas which need an educated eye sometimes. Temperament sometimes is the easiest area because most goldens out there have the golden temperament. But the other areas do get a bit dusty as far as a newbie recognizing qualities or faults. Minor faults might not keep a dog from being bred... but knowing what they are might help you make good choices as far as selecting studs to breed to. And it does put an emphasis on knowing what you have and getting good contacts out there as far as studs go. Particularly knowing which dogs out there will fix the problems that your girl has and/or not produce problems that your girl doesn't have. Pigment is a tough area to fix. As are heads.

Besides evaluating your girl and selecting good dogs for her... knowing pedigrees is another thing. And that's something that a good mentor will help you with. There's a lot of stuff about certain lines and pedigrees which a mentor would help you with. 

Finding a mentor - that's probably the toughest hurdle you will have to start with. Because you sound like a good person and may have the desire and will to stick to it and do a good job even if you only produce one or two litters ever.... but there's a lot of people in the breed who have gotten burned by people who are very ambitious to start with, but are also willing to cut corners or aim very low despite what they are told or advised. 

You won't find a mentor without getting yourself out there. Most people don't have conformation quality dogs. But if your dog is trainable - that's a route you can take. Get into obedience and/or agility. There's a good way to make contacts with people who may be willing to help you - not just seeing the quality of your dog and how she works, but also seeing your own dedication as well. 

This breed needs more good people getting out there and doing stuff with their dogs.... and also breeding and produce good quality puppies. The reason why you may run into discouragement getting started - similar to what some other people have experienced on this forum.... is a lot of people start with puppies and dog that they love and have these dream castles about breeding... and the very first hurdle or pain they experience is finding out that breeding does require selection to start with... and then working for it after that. 

All of the above to sum it up... is a reason why your very first step is going out in person and finding contacts and help within your local breed clubs.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Thank you all!!! You've been a huge help!!

Yes she has full registration and is registered with the AKC as well as her 'lines'. Sorry for the lack of information and correct terminology. We haven't joined any local golden retriever clubs though, and I know we have at least one kennel club we could join. We have been to obedience types classes over the past 2 1/2 years so I know we can start there! I know one breeder in town, and she is very nice, but I am afraid to reach out to her as she touts absolutely all natural, raw diet, no vaccines, medicines is bad, etc., and I am concerned she would scour at me (us). Which, if that's how you raise your dogs that's great, but don't look down on others for not doing the same. Honestly I have been afraid to reach out to local breeders for information as I feel they would either feel: a) threatened, or b) annoyed. There is some type of 'stigma' towards breeders (at least in my area), many here believe in shelter/adoption only. Rescue dogs are great! But there is something about that puppy bond  

As far as the English golden - is there any specific health problems, or physical flaws I should be looking for? (Besides what was mentioned.) 

Thanks again and I see I have much research/homework to do


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

That's great. If you like, post your dog's parents here and we can show you a wealth of information about your girl.

For checking clearances, by way of example here is a link to one of my dog Ziva's clearances on the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals website: 

Click HERE for Ziva's clerances.

There on the top, you can see Ziva's clearances.

The next section down shows her sire's and her dam's clearances. Note that her dam shows a clearance for icthyosis beyond the "core four" clearances.

Below that, the next section has the clearances of her full siblings. There is only one, because Ziva came from a litter of two puppies.

And below that, the largest section is for half-siblings born of the sire. (There could be another section for half-siblings born of Ziva's dam, but her dam didn't have any other litters).

You have to look at all those dogs and examine their clearances (or lack of) before deciding whether or not you should breed that bitch. 

You have to also check out the clearances for any potential stud dogs. Now, Ziva happens to be pregnant as I write this. If you look at her "boyfriend's" OFA page, you will see many, many more dogs there. 

Click here for Percy's clearances.

If you look at the "offspring" category, you'll see that one of his get has an entry of "mild" under hips. That means that one of the puppies he sired had mild hip dysplasia. You'll also see that there is one puppy of his that has an elbow clearance, but not a hip clearance. That usually means the puppy failed the missing clearance, as no one really tests for elbows without simultaneously testing hips. This kind of thing where an occasional dog is missing a clearance is very common, almost universal. But you have to look at it and judge what you believe the risk for dysplasia is in puppies you might produce. You need to check every dog listed in both dogs' OFA reports. And if you find a number of missing clearances, you have to figure out why that is, and what that means as far as the risk you are taking if you breed those two dogs.

I post this for you just as a little glimpse into what conscientious breeders deal with before making a breeding decision. I did this breeding. And I spent almost two years researching it before deciding on it. There's much more that goes into good breeding decisions than saying, "Oh, I have such a wonderful dog, I must share this joy with others!" and tossing her out into the back yard with some boy you like.

You can get a basic idea of things on a wonderful database for Golden Retrievers called k9data.com. Here is Ziva's page from K9data:

Pedigree: MBOSS GCH CH 24kt Esquire's Double Secret Agent

Click on it and you can see Ziva's 3-generation pedigree. At the bottom left of the page are buttons you can click that can show you siblings, offspring, a 5-generation pedigree, and pedigrees with clearance information and longevity, and also a button for genetic information for Ziva, including her Coefficient of Inbreeding and which dogs bring the most genetic influence into Ziva. And then you can click on any other dog in the pedigree, and see all that same information for that dog. And so on. This is an invaluable tool for breeders.

Is your girl on K9data? Are her parents? If not, and if you know her parents' names, I or many others here can create a page for your girl, and you can see what's behind her. I can track my Goldens on K9data all the way back to the late 1800s. It's really fascinating, and gives so much important information for anyone who wants to breed.

I hope this helps give you a tiny glimpse into the world of breeding Goldens, which is much more complicated than it at first appears. Of course, anyone can throw two dogs into the back yard and make a litter. But it takes knowledge and effort to make a litter that has the best chance to be healthy, long lived, rugged, structurally sound and have the right temperaments.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Health clearances and genetic testing are the initial step prior to breeding a dog. 

Then things get a whole lot more complicated. As a Breeder you need to have plan, goals and purpose for the decisions you make. Why do you want to breed a particular girl? What does she bring to the table? What males are good choices for her? What do each of them bring to the table? What about the downside or drawbacks? Every single dog has drawbacks (perfect dogs don't exist) to go along with the good traits they bring to the table, do you know what they are?

A new breeder needs to fully understand that they are not going to produce little carbon copies of their current dog. The offspring may share some similarities but they WILL be different from their parents. This why the breeder needs to have a solid set of goals and objective in mind that they are trying to work toward, or accomplish, with each breeding. 

Long term goals, objectives and consequences matter far more than the goals a single individual litter.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Swampcollie is exactly right. I'm sure all this is invisible to you at the moment, but the more you learn, the more you realize you have to learn. Going down the rabbit hole! Lol!  But it's a wonderful rabbit hole to go down. Very interesting, very rewarding, and sometimes very heartbreaking, but always worth it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Megora said:


> Big problem with "english type" golden retrievers are many breeders may have weaker clearances behind their breeding stock. Some lines are more prone to elbow problems, for example (because in europe they allow for breeding dogs who have minor elbow dysplasia). So if I own a English bred golden, my first concern isn't just getting the clearances on my dog - but I'm also concerned about looking into the health clearance history behind my dog. Ideally, you want to see the last 3-5 generations of clearances behind a breeding dog.


I walked away after posting my huge thingy, but kept worrying a little bit about this paragraph, particularly in light of two or three issues...

Dogs over in europe will not have OFA's. So if you have a puppy whose mom or dad were purchased from an overseas breeder and/or if you actually have a puppy who was imported.... you are not going to have a visible history or anything show up in OFA. 

Stuff over in Europe is or may be handled differently - but depending on what they used, it may be a bit more difficult tracking down the health history behind a dog. All the more so if the dog's background was a Russian puppy mill... there's really good breeders in Europe and Australia that I know of, but they don't necessarily ship their dogs to anyone and everyone.... that's going to be your biggest issues when dealing with european lines... 

It's a bit more complicated than having lines that may be more prone to elbow dysplasia because you don't have 20 years or so of breeders selectively weeding out all dogs who fail elbow clearances with no exceptions for degree or grades.

A lot of people, as I said... handle this sometimes in a dishonest or defensive fashion. They are tired of looking "bad" to puppy buyers who question the lack of clearance history behind their dogs... particularly if their sales pitches are along the lines of telling puppy buyers that their dogs are healthier than American lines. 

Does that mean you absolutely can't breed a dog with no clearance history behind her? No. Among else, I think certain areas run into issues where all the dogs are kinda related to each other and there is a strong desire by some breeders to get new blood in what they breed.

But this is a huge reason why studying pedigrees and knowing blood lines behind dogs is going to help you best. 

Your dog may not have a known health history behind her. That's a fault that you have to deal with. And the way you fix that fault is breeding her to a dog that is known for producing rock solid get as far as hips and elbows. And it gets easier the next generation, because you at least know your girl got all her clearances. And the next generation gets easier after that.

And this area especially - you aren't going to be able to fix while staying home. You have to get out and leave your comfort zone. In the case that you are starting from square one possibly with a dog who has no known health history... and it gets tougher from there because you have breeders producing english line dogs who behave pretty badly as far as seeking full clearances on their breeding stock. Any dog bred in the US should have OFA's done. Even if they do other stuff as well, OFAs's need to be done. It would build a visible health history behind dogs who may be european lines, but who are the product of 2-5 generations of US bred dogs. There's no excuse for not having a visible pedigree on OFA for dogs whose parents and grandparents (at least) were all born and bred in the US.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You have received really excellent advice.

If you follow my Towhee's link in my signature you will see the clearances and choices for sires that I made with the approval of her Co-owner and master breeder. Clearances and DNA testing are a must.

That said, I have already contacted one stud owner to verify there is frozen semen available for my young (also Co-owned) girl who is not yet 7 months old. She will need all of her clearances plus a natural cover litter of pups before risking an frozen implant, so figure probably 3 years away... That is not an unusual amount of time to consider a pairing  plus titles.

Strengthening weak points while trying to maintain the strong points - conformationally, working abilities and attitude are just a few of the factors. My little one is growing up to be gorgeous, highly motivated and should bring an amazing blend of characteristics, actually more than we had hoped for. 

My point is there are a lot of factors to consider, and the planning can take a very long time. Even then things can happen to thwart your dreams. So, start with your girl's clearances (breed clinics can save you money), consider titling her in some sports, get at least a CCA (certificate of conformation assessment where she will be judged by 3 different judges as meeting the breed standard: held by golden retriever clubs) and look for a suitable mate. Also if you can find a mentor, that would certainly help.

Good luck 

Also, please be aware that as rewarding as bringing a litter of goldens into the world can be, there can be heartbreak: the loss of your girl, the loss of a litter, a puppy or a youngster. These all hurt an incredible amount.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

You have a top breeder in Wisconsin : Home - Summit Golden Retrievers . 

Everyone here including me is going to tell you to kind of get your house in order around your girl by sending her hip, elbow, heart, and eye clearances to Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. Without those, as was mentioned, a good stud dog will be impossible to access. 

Next take a really good look at her pedigree with an expert or mentor. You want as much information as you can sleuth out on the health and temperament of at least 5 generations to help you make a wise decision.

Then assess the bitch herself, again with help and an objective eye. Try signing her up for the CCA event in goldens in which three judges educate you about your girl's pluses and minuses in relation to the breed standard.

Order the Blue Book from the Golden Retriever Club Of America, and study it.

That will take a few months to get done.

Then, if she passes all her clearances, and there is a good dog in there, perhaps line breed/ build on the best of what you have. 

It is MUCH easier to have a program of which to be proud if you start with the most quality bitch you can find after 5 to 10 years of emersion in the breed and the meeting of goals( titles), which most of us here did.

Saying that, you might have a bitch you can happily breed for the reasons you stated. Lots of it comes down to those health issues, and her conformation not having faults that cause a dog pain in older age or deviate from the real meat of what a golden needs to meet in terms of criteria to be a retriever.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Okay I am going to beat the certifications drum from another angle. I will attach some images at the bottom too, but here is how you get them. 

Cardiologist heart here is a list for you state. Let them know you are going for OFA certification. Submit the completed form. 

WISCONSIN
Madison
Dr. Heidi Britt Kellihan 
University of Wisconsin-Madison Cardiology 
2015 Linden Dr. 
Madison, WI 53706 
608-263-7600 
[email protected] 
www.vetmed.wisc.edu 

Dr. Rebecca L. Stepien 
University of Wisconsin-Madison Cardiology 
2015 Linden Dr. 
Madison, WI 53706‑1102 
608-263-7600 
[email protected] 
www.vetmed.wisc.edu 

Waukesha
Dr. Shianne Koplitz 
Wisconsin Veterninary Referral Center 
360 Bluemound Rd.
Waukesha, WI 53188 
866-542-3241
[email protected] 
Emergency Vet & Veterinary Service: 24 Hour Animal Hospital: Waukesha, WI 

Eyes - same thing as above. Click the link for the list 
Search Results | ACVO

Hips and elbows are a set of X-rays that are submitted. Most vets can do this but not all are good at it. Bad positioning can cause poor scores. So as the others have said, get out and get active. Other breeders in your area can let you know who is good and who to avoid. A lot of breeds need this so all breed clubs could help here too. 

DNA testing there are several companies but this one runs great discounts on their Facebook page. https://www.pawprintgenetics.com

On a side note good breeder's are not going to feel threatened by you. Most have many more homes than they can ever provide puppies for. They tend to refer to each other and are very supportive of each other. But it is a hard group to crack and it takes dedication and getting out there.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I want to stress the need to be a student of the breed. I see so many folks come to this forum wanting to breed first without having established any sort of knowledge base to build from other than their role of a pet owner. In their excitement, there is little to no tolerance to anything that might delay that first litter from becoming a reality--evidenced by a recent thread on this exact same subject. A mentor can only do so much & you can only learn so much from the internet; you need to get out there with your girl, find a sport she excels in, push beyond pet classes, truly learn her strengths by doing, learning w/ her & by watching others in action. 

You need to be an asset to your puppy buyers as well, the relationship doesn't (IMO shouldn't) end when the sales transaction is made. I look at how much time & effort some of which can be an emotional roller coaster that my breeder invests w/ her puppy families, you'd think the hard part was raising the pups til placement, but so much continues on long after the pups go home. If your knowledge base is limited, how do you support those families w/ your pups who struggle, who think their 8 week old puppy is aggressive, who was matched w/ a pup incompatible w/ the chosen home cause the breeder thought picking pups at 3 weeks was a good thing to do...

The golden community definitely needs more reputable breeders, I hope you take the time to see, learn then do--we have far too many coming here to learn the sales pitch only to rush out, build a website & start cranking out poorly bred pups cause they magically know better than those whose advice fell on deaf ears.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Coming late to this party, but you have gotten fabulous advice. 
If finances are any concern, you should do eyes and heart before you do hips and elbows. It is possible you will get a letter back from OFA saying she does not qualify for a clearance, and in that case, unless it would make a difference to you re:her care, you would not /should not breed her so there'd be no reason to do her hips/elbows- which DOES take an experienced vet good at positioning to get your best rating.
If you went on and got the eyes and heart done now, while you're waiting on your clearance cert from OFA, you could be making contact w local dog people - not necessarily Golden people- and inquire around about who does best OFA hips/elbows. 
Also Pawprint Genetics is having a Christmas sale right now and you can get the whole Golden panel done for about $135 or so. That's a huge bargain and w Euro pedigree, ICT is a concern (it will affect your choices for stud dog). It's easy to do, you can cheek swab her yourself and mail in. I think you would have to order the tests before Christmas to get the 50% off sale price but probably check yourself because my memory is not great for things I don't need myself!
Her pedigree: stud dog owners will want that k9data link. And if you don't want to/don't know how to create it, you can post her registration cert here and someone will do it for you, then you can go in and put a pic on it. It'll make her a part of breed history. Some of us here can semi-mentor you as to lines you would want to skip over, and lines that would make a nice match. But a big piece of the pie will be your own ability to assess her strengths and weaknesses- and it's not easily learnt. The Blue Book is a great tool (someone already suggested it) as is the GRCA CCA - pretty sure the WI club just had one so its something you'd have to travel for but well worth every cent you would spend as you would get 3 assessments from experts and possibly a CCA title. There are no upcoming events on the GRCA CCA calendar (online) right now but after Jan 5 I have two to input. All dogs have weaknesses- you will want to choose a stud dog who can at least not take away her strengths and make a try at fixing the weaknesses. And you have the entire country to choose one from, since shipping semen is easy. 
We do need good breeders of pets, and you will get a warm welcome from everyone you meet if you do things the right way- get her clearances, if you've taken ob classes for the last 2.5 years (I think I read) then you almost certainly can at least get a RN title on her easily enough-and that too is appealing when you approach stud dog owners. It's an entry level Rally title but at least implies you are interested in breed events if you have a title, and also that you are willing to work to do things right.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Ditto everything that has been said above, and one thing that hasn't been stated outright: Be above board and honest with everyone you talk to. Lying, or not telling the whole truth is the quickest way to destroy a budding relationship. Make sure that she is on K9data with an accurate pedigree. If you need help with that, please let me know. As an admin for the site, I can help you with that, even if you have nothing more than a registration certificate. Send everything to OFA, and post the information on K9data. Keep her eye exam current, and send it in to OFA every year. Do it right, don't take shortcuts, find a mentor, get involved with a club, do SOMETHING with your girl to justify _why_ you think she is of a high enough quality to be bred, and you will make lots of friends. Good luck!


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Just adding that there is a nice health clinic where you can have eye and heart clearances done each April at Western Waukesha Dog Training Center in Ixonia. You can also have lyme and heartworm tests done at a discount. They should be updating their website re that soon. I'm sure there are other health clinics around but that's the one I always attend.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

The Ixonia clinic is great, I have gone there for several years. Marty Greer, the repro vet, has one in Lomira and this year I went to the Glenwood City clinic. I always have to drive 2-3 hours for a clinic. 

I used to use Spring Harbor in Madison for hips/elbows, but this year I am going to Great Lakes Veterinary.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Wow - the out pouring of help here is beyond amazing!!! Thank you all SO much! I have paw print genetics up right now and am starting with that (thanks for the sale alert)- I will be ordering that today. I also have a vet appointment set for next week to discuss the process, the good, the bad, get the vets opinion, etc. I will ask about their experience with OFA. I'm sure the vet will have some good connections to reach out to as well. This is the best vet office in town, they are wonderful people, so I am sure they will do great but I will ask around too! 

I know this is a LONG way away, but do any of you put the right to re-purchase the puppy after the sale? I see posts on my local facebook groups and whatnot and sometimes puppy owners want to sell after 6 months. This breaks my heart!!!! I want to put something in the contract where I have the first right to purchase (and honestly I would just refund them the full amount). I'd rather take a "loss" on a puppy and make sure they get to the right home. I love dogs, and when I see these posts I just want to go rescue every dog there is. I'm sure you all do as well! Puppies are not just gifts! (Since that season is upon us..) Is it legal to put something like that in a contract? (Are contracts even a thing?) 

Also, I love all of your pictures in your signatures, soooo adorable  My girl has the same head and chest (I think) as Tizzy (the Italian)'s photo. She sits so pretty just like that! Very similar in color too  How can you ever say no to them? I'll try to keep this forum updated as I go through this process! Thanks again for all of your support and advice!


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Oh, and one of my Mom's dogs did suffer from Ichthyosi. She had a pretty serve case, and it was sad to watch her go live through the condition. Thankfully our family was able to support medical treatments (as needed, really just more checkups and blood-work), and a daily pill to help her. I remember even as a puppy she was tired and lethargic. We didn't think anything of it, but by the time she was one she has lost large chunks of hair (some spots were bald). she had black and pink spots on her skin, she gained weight, and she was alllllways sleeping. She lived a happy life, but I wouldn't want to pass that onto any puppies/future owners. You just never know... some people might dump the dog, or may decide to go against medical treatment (for costs or personal reasons). She was still a sweet dog  I'm glad she was with our family.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I would advise you to absolutely have a contract and include a right of first refusal in it. When the time to start developing a contract just ask if you have any questions about what's typical to see in one. 
Also, don't expect your vet to have an eye for a Golden. Unless the vet is involved in AKC conformation events they are not usually a good guide for what's correct and what isn't. Any vet can do OFA films but you really do want to ask around in your show community for the name of the vet who does it best in your area.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

On the ICT, your girl could be a carrier- it is recessive, so you would want to breed to a clear dog if she is. Carriers never have symptoms but can produce affected puppies if bred to another carrier or an affected dog.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Sorry that was a different dog that had the condition. Not my current dog. Current dog is not related to any dogs I've ever owned (or have been in my family). I am testing for the gene though! Looks like about 29% of goldens are carriers  My dog is very healthy, beautiful, and happy - but you never know what the genetic makeup might be. I ordered the kit though the website recommended yesterday. I've never sent in swab samples but it should be fun!!  

Also someone posted about looking up all the doggie info at AKC and k9data. I thought my pup's litter parents registered the pups, but I guess not! I just registered her today at AKC.com. Does anyone know how long it will take for her to "show up" in their system? Also, where would be the best place to look up her parents? k9data? AKC? I have their registration numbers with all my puppy paperwork  I will try both.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

BlazenGR said:


> Ditto everything that has been said above, and one thing that hasn't been stated outright: Be above board and honest with everyone you talk to. Lying, or not telling the whole truth is the quickest way to destroy a budding relationship.  Make sure that she is on K9data with an accurate pedigree. If you need help with that, please let me know. As an admin for the site, I can help you with that, even if you have nothing more than a registration certificate. Send everything to OFA, and post the information on K9data. Keep her eye exam current, and send it in to OFA every year. *Do it right, don't take shortcuts, find a mentor, get involved with a club, do SOMETHING with your girl to justify why you think she is of a high enough quality to be bred, and you will make lots of friends*. Good luck!


You're received such wonderful input here, all of it invaluable, but this bit stands out to me. Doing things the right way is always worthwhile and it takes time, look at is an investment in something important to you and as a long term thing. Reputation is everything, especially in the Golden world which seems especially well connected to me. People know each other and know OF each other and it's a lot easer to build a strong foundation in the beginning rather than try to repair a shaky reputation down the road.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Alexismygirl said:


> Sorry that was a different dog that had the condition. Not my current dog. Current dog is not related to any dogs I've ever owned (or have been in my family). I am testing for the gene though! Looks like about 29% of goldens are carriers  My dog is very healthy, beautiful, and happy - but you never know what the genetic makeup might be. I ordered the kit though the website recommended yesterday. I've never sent in swab samples but it should be fun!!
> 
> Also someone posted about looking up all the doggie info at AKC and k9data. I thought my pup's litter parents registered the pups, but I guess not! I just registered her today at AKC.com. Does anyone know how long it will take for her to "show up" in their system? Also, where would be the best place to look up her parents? k9data? AKC? I have their registration numbers with all my puppy paperwork  I will try both.


It's more than 29% who are carriers- and that's no reason to NOT breed, just work around it. Be sure she's not shared a water bucket or eaten 30 minutes prior to swabbing.
You don't have AKC registration? If she's 2.5 YO- it'll take a while and will also cost you more to register her. I believe they have time breakdowns, like it is $x extra after they are 6mo, another $x extra after a year, etc. I'd expect to see registration papers in the mail in about 3 weeks. If you want to scan the red/blue/yellow on white form you should have gotten when you bought her in, someone here can put her on k9data for you. The parents should be on OFA as well. You can look them up on akc through the store, but it is complicated to explain in a typed message.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Alexismygirl said:


> Also someone posted about looking up all the doggie info at AKC and k9data. I thought my pup's litter parents registered the pups, but I guess not! I just registered her today at AKC.com. Does anyone know how long it will take for her to "show up" in their system? *Also, where would be the best place to look up her parents? k9data? AKC? I have their registration numbers with all my puppy paperwork :*) I will try both.


Here's a very simple thing: Post (1) your dog's registered name and call name, and (2) the registered names of your dog's parents here, and magically you will be supplied with a link to a k9data page for your dog. And then you will be able to see your dog's entire lineage, you can edit the page, add a photo and information about your dog, etc.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I just sent you a pm w my email address- if you don't want to put the paperwork on the forum, you can scan it to me and I will put on k9data and then post a link.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Alexismygirl said:


> Also someone posted about looking up all the doggie info at AKC and k9data. I thought my pup's litter parents registered the pups, but I guess not! I just registered her today at AKC.com. Does anyone know how long it will take for her to "show up" in their system? Also, where would be the best place to look up her parents? k9data? AKC? I have their registration numbers with all my puppy paperwork  I will try both.


There are actually 3 research resources each with their strengths and weeknesses. 

First, AKC because they are the registering body they have the definitive pedigree information. They will give you the parents name on your registration certificate but if you want more, you have to pay for it. Pedigrees are available as paper ones that are mailed to you or online research pedigrees that are only available to you for a short period of time. They also will only go back 3 or 4 generations. 

OFA allows you to see the ancestors behind your dog but only if they have passed an OFA submitted health certification or a failed one where the own agreed to disclose it. The progeny is automatically linked and if your dogs ancestors had OFA certifications it can go quite a ways back. The big deal here is seeing the health certifications which don't show on the AKC pedigrees. But if the dogs are in Europe or no testing was done they disappear for OFAs site.

K9data is a wonderful tool. It integrates pedigrees, health certifications that can link to OFA, and cool add ons like pictures, and calculating inbreeding coefficients. Also, depending on the line you might be able to track pedigrees all the way back to the beginning of the breed. The down side is that it is user entry and though not common information can be incorrect. The owner and several helpers do usually catch any issues pretty quickly. Though it is available world wide it originated in the U.S. And some Europen lines are not as robustly presented although more and more seem to be using it. 

You have had several offers to help get your girl loaded on K9Data. This is a really great tool and if you are not comfortable doing it, I would take them up on it. Once she is in give it about a month and it will calculate a CoI for your girl. 

If you are curious about K9Data, feel free to click on the link for Tilt or Tizzy in my signature below. It will let you kick the tires and take a tour. Tilt will give you an idea of what you should find for dogs in the U.S. And Tizzy is a European example.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Thank you Dana! Everyone has been so helpful!!! Sorry I've been slow to respond. I'm stilling trying to figure out how to find my posts/reply/send messages (I can't because I'm too new of a user). Still trying to navigate AKC, OFA, and K9! All websites are brand new to me (and designed differently of course)!! I'm glad everything is online though. Its also the holidays and we have lots of family events going on too  It will be very nice to have access once I figure out how it all works. 

My dog, Alex, her number is SR83832001. Her Mom (Dam) is SR59733404, and her Dad (Sire) is SR72769408. We *think* we have found a good boyfriend, but I'm not sure how to look up the potential mates lines... I can see him only on AKC. Do I need to ask for Sire/Dam numbers for him as well? His number is SR82537703 Lloyd is his name. He has a great great personality, passed HIP clearance (no DNA testing), he is a good age (I've been reading on 'healthy sperm' - who knew there was such a thing), and I LOVE his coat. 

I've been reading up on the pregnancy process, how the doggie feels, what she needs, whelping boxes, the 'stages', and even the temperature the room should be when the pups are born! Vet took x-rays said everything was "good" but I guess I have to wait for OFA to send exact percentages? Genetic testing company called yesterday they need more saliva. The little brushes they give you are very small. I'm considering holding a treat out and catching the drool in a zipblock bag. Hahaha, she loves drooling for treats  AKC was registered online right away - they sent a pdf via email and the certificate is on the way in the mail. 

Thank you all sooooo much!!!! If anyone has a great book recommendation for getting through the mating, pregnancy, whelping, and raising I'd love to order one. Once she whelps I'll be lucky to have my Mom with me as she has whelped two litters without any issues. One thing does concern me - our dog (when I was little) when whelping, was done in about two hours for both litters. There are goldens here in the Fox Valley that I know that whelp for two days straight!!! This seems nuts to me, is this normal? Should I expect a full 48 hours on whelping duty? Maybe my Mom and I just got very lucky.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Check her dam's AKC #- it is returning as if she were never registered. 
I'm working on Lloyd's pedigree and her's on k9data but so far, her sire is all I have on since dam isn't coming up on AKC.
Post it again, maybe a number is transposed?
In the meantime I will see if they are on OFA. Here's the start of her page:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=807898


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Maybe I typed it wrong - Alex's Mom - Molly Bear Blue - SR59733403 (yes I did, whoops!)


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Also I do have the AKC paperwork that shows three generations (for my Dog). Can I add those into k9 data?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Just another FYI- Lloyd (DO need his parents' numbers, btw) is not on OFA- so the info that you go re: passing his hips, unless they were done in the last few weeks, that is not true. Elbows need to be done at same time btw. His number does not come up on OFA so other than if he was just evaluated and they were just sent in this last month, he would be there if he passed. 
Some folks, not to be too judgey, but some folks w pet dogs do just 'ask the vet' and most of the time vets will say, oh yes, his hips seem fine.... and then they think they have a hip clearance. They don't.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If you have the 3 gen pedigree and could just scan it in here, that'd be infinitely easier on me or whoever finishes her ped page on k9data- the breeder's name and other fields from the database info are on the 3 gen. So please just scan it up as a file here and it'd save going back and forth from AKC to OFA to k9data.
or you can email it to me-
[email protected]


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Okay Thank you so much - I just emailed you some pictures of her generations. (I dont have a scanner at home.) Is it possible her dog went to a different certification? She said he was 60 or 70% or something, and I was just reading OFA has classifications as "good" and "excellent". I'll request her paperwork on the dog. Thank you for letting me know and for looking into that!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

While awaiting you posting the pedigree, I have gotten the sire's part of it due to a sib of his having clearances on OFA- so I have filled that part in. 
Not sure you will feel safe (I would not) breeding to a dog with less than 100% passing clearances behind him for many generations. Her sire (whose info was able to get through sibs on OFA) really does not have a safe breeding pedigree for clearances and the titles are also absent for many generations. If you click on one of his sire's clearances on k9data and go to his page, open it, you will see he's produced two failing hips out of 4 evaluated, so 50% fail rate- and he has a full and half sib w failing elbows. I recall the name of one of those sibs (the half sib) from another pedigree I researched and I feel like it was even worse but no longer remember what dog that was (just like I won't remember this one but will remember her name when I see it). Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is the grandsire's page.

I can't get the dam's info since none of her sibs are registered, per AKC. I'll have to wait on you to supply names/numbers. Hopefully her pedigree will look better for a breeding candidate- but it may be that you conclude your girl will not be a good addition to the gene pool just to have the fun of a litter if her dam's background is equally bleak.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

I'm sorry I am confused - my dog's dad has a poor hip/elbow history, or my dog's potential mate's dad has a poor hip/elbow history?


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

I think I understand.. my Dog's grandpa has issues? All I see are good and normal? I'm sorry I'm not following. Can you show me the failed results? 

EDIT: Okay I see her Grandpa himself didn't have any issues. he passed with good and normal. I will email the owner's and see if they have had any more recent testings, or if they plan to do so in the future.

I see one mild reading for one of his offspring (out of four that were tested & registered). Which would mean that would be Alex's uncle with the rating. That would be a 75% rate (of his actual offspring)? I see one of her Grandfather's siblings has a fair classification. So this would be her great aunt/uncle? So do you get the failed rate based on ALL test results in any relation to the subject dog? (I.e. the relationship doesn't matter if it a brother/offspring.) Its too bad only one (sibling) is registered. I'm concerned that a person could just continue to dive deeper and deeper to try and find more issues? Maybe I'm not understanding here.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You aren't understanding how to read what's there- but that's because it is a foreign language to you,
When you see an elbow # and no hip # you can safely assume hips are failed. that'll be the case most of the time when a dog fails. However, as in the one rated and listed as mild, that owner initialed the box that says 'publish abnormal results'- so the actual fail is listed. 
He's got a 50% pass rate on offspring. That's just one of them. The others who have clearances, such as Pedigree: Lil Angus Of The Morning Valley for instance- this dog's disease has been totally ignored and he has been bred over and over and produced very poorly. With such poor choices behind her, you might deduce less than adequate care was taken with breeding decisions by her breeders. On some of it, you have to realize those of us in the breed for lots of decades are going to 'just know' some breedings, even though we do not see them on OFA- because on OFA no one checked the box. 

All in all, Alex's dam has an essentially unchecked, unclearanced pedigree. Who knows what it holds. No one has bothered to get clearances, which are a piece of being an ethical breeder. I look at it and see 'back yard pets bred to neighbor's dogs' for the most part -whether that's true or not, that's the level of care I see in her pedigree. Her sire's is somewhat better for clearances but they are not really solid clearances so whether it would play out as truly better we don't know. 

Here is Alex's total pedigree,Pedigree: Alex Allie Teal-Blue I have gone through all of OFA and any dog with any clearances in her pedigree now has them listed on k9data. If they are listed there, it is smart to go look and see their sibs/offspring/half sibs, etc so you get a good picture of what you're dealing with. If there are no clearances on k9data TODAY, they are correct as of TODAY for 5 generations back. I only fooled w sibs being added on one generation while I was waiting on your pedigree. So I added a couple of sibs in but did not worry with their clearances. A job for another day. 
And too, the serious lack of titles tells me that in 5 generations, no one has been involved in the breed other than by breeding their pets. You've got to be involved to have knowledge that will help you make good choices for your beloved animal, so while all in all they are probably =maybe- fine pets, we don't know because there's no one involved in the fancy who is documenting any of it. So its just unknown and for most serious puppy buyers, that would be a problem. 

Potential mate- I didn't fool w his pedigree at all, other than inputting his name and reg # into k9data. Maybe someone else can pick up from that start and after you get his parents' #'s finish his pedigree, or I may have time tonight to do it- if you want to email to me the info. It may be faster to post it here, as someone else could get to it faster. 
All in all, I don't think she should be bred to a dog with less than 100% clearances behind him and no issues w sibs of parents or grandparents production but that's my personal opinion. And along with that superior stud dog, I would want her to have all her clearances, and at least a good or better. That's just me. 
Someone else may jump in and disagree and that's fair too. I come to that from a place of love of the breed, and knowing how devastating casual breeding can be without lots and lots of research behind the litter. So the stud dog you've got picked potentially may fit that bill, or may not depending on what the pedigree reveals. You can't look at just phenotype and go from there although that is a piece of it.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

a PS- you yourself are already more involved in the breed than the breeders of many of the dogs in Alex's pedigree- because you are investing yourself in gleaning knowledge and are trying to do it right. I commend you for that. You're fortunate that you have people here who will take the time to help you to understand what we see when we look at her pedigree and what's behind her, and you are already obviously way more educated than many of her predecessors' breeders. Sources of information and how to use them should be a class in schools!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

And no, that 50% didn't come from the sibling I was getting that from offspring only.
You DO want to dig deeper and deeper and find any issues you can, though- that is not a bad thing, it is a good thing to know everything you can possibly know about that pedigree you are planning to breed from. And once you do know all you can glean, you have to do the same with all the stud dogs you are looking at. Don't limit yourself to a local dog - that's probably your biggest danger. There are stud dogs all over the country who could improve your girl (much as we love them they are none of them perfect so we must realistically assess their weaknesses and strengths and try to keep the strong pieces by using a dog who himself and whose parents have similar strengths, as well as have superior traits where the bitch is weak). You seem like a person who wants to do anything she tries well- so this is no different, you can do it well if you work at learning how.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Alexismygirl said:


> ...and I LOVE his coat.


I am going to guess it is White. 

Please, please, please, slow down and re-focus you research on health. Please think about how it would make you feel if one of Alex's puppies had issues. How would you feel if the puppies you made happen with your choice to breed and to what dog needed thousands on dollars of surgery to walk, had to have an eye removed, or dropped dead playing ball because of a heart condition? How would you feel if this happened and you chose not to test or settle for a stud dog without all the tests? This absolutely could happen even with the tests but the risk is lower and atleast you would have done all you could.

We already have way too many bad, greed, dishonest or clueless breeders in the US. It truly is terrible and sadly European style and light color marketed as "English Cream" is a hot bed of poor breeders. I say this because I have a passion for European lines and it is to the point where many of the best breeders overseas will not even respond if you are in the US. Why? Because they have seen the European dogs sent over here be exploited and end up in kennels that focus on profit. 

There are still a few good and dedicated breeders with European lines in the US but they are few and far between. With these few you will see full health testing and that they compete in some venue in the AKC. 

The what I call 'white dog' breeders don't care about health, the breed any European dog they can get their hands on, they don't health test, or breed dogs even with failing health results, they don't compete or if they do it is only in International shows in the US which is a pay for title situation. They also are not easy to spot because they likely will be nice and friendly people. They just don't put the breed first. 

You have received a lot of good information and I challenge you to do better than breeding for a white dog, breed for a healthy dog.

That means you need to find a stud dog with impeccable health results himself and through his pedigree. You need this strength from a stud because it is a severe weekness in your girl. 

Neither of Alex's parents have any verifiable health certifications.
On her dad's side out of the 7 dogs shown on a 3 generation pedigree, 3 dogs have hip/elbow health certifications, 3 have none and her paternal grandmother's father had hip Dysplasia.
On her Mother's side there is not a single dog in the 3 generation pedigree with any health certifications. 

I am sitting here with my elbow Dysplasia girl who is an American Champion and has never show any limp or pain in her stride. Dysplastic dogs can look normal from the outside and your girl has a pedigree where almost 80% of her ancestors are untested and could have had issues with hips and/or elbows. 

Please re-evaluate your direction. One health test on a boy that can't be verified is not going to offer improvement to Alex's pedigree. 

I only have girls but take a look through my girl's history on OFA. and look at the images below with annotations. There are no perfect dogs and my girls certainly are not but they can give you more of an idea of what a health testing background a good stud dog should have.

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Prism, thank you for further explication! I appreciate your non judgmental tone and your opinion. It is all new to me. I didn't know there was so much missing from my dogs history. That sucks! At least I have added to the online database if nothing else. I'm sure as we move forward (hopefully) our information can become more complete. 

I (of course) am making sure she can get the best mate possible (if possible). Maybe I will not find a good mate for her at all. I'm not coming her to simply pick a dog based on their coats color.. I was afraid to come to a place like this for the comments that just assume "she's going to do whatever she wants she dosent care about the dogs health". Obviously I'm here for my dogs health. Obviously I'm here to learn. Obviously I care otherwise why would I even be looking into this, asking questions, and be paying to have extra work done on my dog for testing? 

I am grateful for everyone who has come here to comment positively - without harsh judgement, and to help me better understand how everything works. Thank you all for your help, and your kind words of encouragement.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Alexismygirl said:


> Genetic testing company called yesterday they need more saliva. The little brushes they give you are very small. I'm considering holding a treat out and catching the drool in a zipblock bag. Hahaha, she loves drooling for treats  AKC was registered online right away - they sent a pdf via email and the certificate is on the way in the mail.


It is not so much the drool but the cells you sweep off of her gums and inside cheek. The treat holds the risk she might mouth or grab for it and then you would contaminate your sample. Just make sure you swab the inside of her mouth for the time in the instructions and you should have what you need.



Alexismygirl said:


> Vet took x-rays said everything was "good" but I guess I have to wait for OFA to send exact percentages?


Yes you do have to wait for OFA to send the results. Some vets are good at reading x-Rays and some not so much. What you will be looking for is 'normal' elbows and a passing grade for hips which are 'fair', 'good' or 'excellent'. OFA does not rate in percentages. 


The talk of percentages makes me think that Lloyd's owner used PennHIP. PennHIP Home
They recently discontinued this practice. The percentages really don't Tell you how good the hips are, it just tells you were they rank compared to other Golden which in general don't have the strongest hips. It is the DI numbers you want to look at .30 is PennHIPs threshold for Dysplasia risk. If it is higher than that (closer to. 1.0) then the dog is at risk. Though PennHIP is acceptable there are some issues to be aware of. First it is preferred by less than reputable breeders because PennHIP will evaluate a 16 week old puppy, so tho use wantin to breed underage drinking dogs really like that. PennHIP does not make their results publicly verifiable, so you have to ask to see the form and hope it has not been altered. And yes sadly there are people who falsify forms. Finally, they only do hips so if the person uses them for hips they still need to do elbows through OFA. There is an interesting letter on PennHIP below. 



Alexismygirl said:


> Thank you all sooooo much!!!! If anyone has a great book recommendation for getting through the mating, pregnancy, whelping, and raising I'd love to order one. Once she whelps I'll be lucky to have my Mom with me as she has whelped two litters without any issues. One thing does concern me - our dog (when I was little) when whelping, was done in about two hours for both litters. There are goldens here in the Fox Valley that I know that whelp for two days straight!!! This seems nuts to me, is this normal? Should I expect a full 48 hours on whelping duty? Maybe my Mom and I just got very lucky.


Here are two really great books one by Myra Sevant-Harris and the other by Dr. Marty Greer.
https://www.amazon.com/Canine-Reproduction-Whelping-Breeders-Guide/dp/1929242379
https://www.amazon.com/Canine-Reproduction-Neonatology-Marthina-Greer/dp/1591610419

Sometimes whelpings are speedy sometimes not. 2 hours is really short especially for a large litter. My first litter which was this year (after 4 years in the breed) she surprised us. She dropped her temp and we were watching and waking up every couple of hours and we were going to sit with her when she showed pre-whelp signs like panting or digging. But she never showed any, so we woke up to 4 little potatoes all cleaned and nursing she popped out another two in less than an hour so we think her total time was 2-3 hours. My mentor a seasoned breeder of 35+ years also had a girl whelp about 12 hours after my girl and it was a disaster that took over 24 hours and two trips to the e-vet. My girl actually helped by nursing both litters for a 5 hour period while the other mom was at the e-vet. Both of these girls were first time moms so in my story there were both ends of the spectrum. The key is to know when a whelping is not normal and when you need vet assistance. A mentor who can be available to you physically is indispensable.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> IThough PennHIP is acceptable there are some issues to be aware of. First it is preferred by less than reputable breeders because PennHIP will evaluate a 16 week old puppy, so tho use wantin to breed underage drinking dogs really like that.


LOL!! Those **** drinking Goldens and the folks who give them IDs to do it with!!!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lots of lovely dogs have basically vacant pedigrees and health clearances behind them. That doesn't mean you cannot change the tide (I admit I would love to see photos of her, front, side, rear, head) and improve her. Someone said back earlier that WI is a heavily concentrated area for some pedigrees and suggested she might be appealing for that reason. She will be an outcross for whoever you use on her. That does afford you some freedom to use a heavily line bred dog if you want. I just caught (as I re-read the thread, which you should do too now that you have some more knowledge and now that you might understand more of what was said earlier) that you have actually now done her hips/elbows? 
Someone provided you w a clinic info for heart and eyes, and someone else gave you (I think) cardio contacts in your area, those exams are much less costly than hips/elbows. 

Did the vet give you digital photos? I would love to see those, too if you have them. There are also FB groups (OFA results) that will give you opinions of what you will get and critique the films/positioning. It'll give you an idea of what you might get- most vets do not do good guessing, unless they do more than 100 a year, they don't get enough feedback to know if they are doing a good job. 
Choosing to do them w your vet instead of going to whoever does the best job on positioning in your state might end up costing you in your rating but it also might be he did a fine job- that's why I would like to see them. 
Most of all- a real live human in your area, who is involved in an active way with a sporting breed (and we could tell you whether or not that Lloyd owner or the raw feeder you mentioned earlier would meet that bill or not if you shared their name) is essential. It doesn't have to be a Golden person- any Sporting Group breeder/exhibitor would do. And your own ethics as well- as Lesley ( I think) said earlier- never lie . Eventually it is found out! Always have the best interest of the breed (not your own breedings but the breed as a whole) in your forefront- and I will add, be a sponge. Soak up everyone's opinion, appreciate all the knowledge that's being shared, and do not have thin skin around your bitch's attributes or pedigree- they are what they are. It's what you hope to work with so you need to know every little secret hidden anywhere in her pedigree so you can try to repair in her offspring. I know this is not how your mama did her two litters- but I would suggest you join GRCA and read every magazine cover to cover. Keep them for reference. Hone your eye with the photos there. 
Do something w your girl, the RN is easy and would open doors at least a crack. Don't settle for the local dog. Your bitch, more than many, REALLY needs a superior stud dog. Even if she comes back OFA Excellent and passes elbows, eyes and heart w cardiologist, she still needs a superior stud dog - Lloyd is missing heart eyes and elbows- and in case the white thing is what you like, a superior whitish dog. They are out there. Don't fall victim to the Russian puppy mill import stud dogs. You have the resource of us to ask, and we will tell you the truth. You may not like the truth all the time but if you can absorb it, you can grow and learn from this site.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Oh, and Lloyd's pedigree- if you will get his parents' names/numbers, that might get us a way to input in k9data- if she has a 3 gen pedigree, that'd be even better. I would discourage using him (because I suspect his pedigree) , but with the pedigree, it would be a good exercise for you to decide that on your own....


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

This has been a very interesting post and trying to absorb all the wonderful information you have been given. These people are putting a great deal of time into helping you but not sure you are listening to everything they are saying. You seem to have the best of intentions and appear to want to improve the breed with healthy puppies vs. Craiglist dogs. But in my HO you are skipping over some of the most important information they have given you. To become a really good, reputable breeder you need to slow down and get involved in the breed.

You posted you already have a prospective mate? Your talking about whelping boxes? Did you miss the part about joining a GCRA group? Searching out a good breeder in your area? Being involved in showing your girl? Actually learning about the breed so you can know what to look for in a mate? And they aren't talking about how pretty and sweet he may be but looking deeper.

This is a process and it takes time. These people are working very hard to help you learn while you may have a wonderful girl, she might not be the best prospect for breeding. They are even trying to be supportive if you choose to breed her anyway, they are trying to help you find someone that will improve her short comings. If you truly want to become a reputable breeder slow down and get involved. Go to Jack Onofrio Dog Shows, LLC | Welcome and find a show near you, go and ask questions, join a club, watch the judging and learn.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

I entered Lloyd's sire and dam; his litter sister is in the OFA database. His dam is ICT affected, and there is no information about the sire, so at best Lloyd is a carrier.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Were I in your shoes, I would eliminate Lloyd for consideration simply based on his father who is honestly quite frightening from a production standpoint. 

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
He himself is missing his elbow certification. Since hips and elbows are almost always done at the same time, we can reasonably infer he failed. 

Of his 21 offspring listed on OFA which does not include Lloyd, 20 are old enough to have complete certifications. Sadly, not one offspring has full certifications for hips, elbows, eyes and heart by a Cardiologist.
There are 7 offspring that have elbows and hips (though 1 has PennHIP ratings that place her in the Mild and Moderate OA risk catagories), 5 offspring with either failing or missing hips in the presence of elbows, 3 offspring with failing or missing elbows in the presence of hips and 6 with both hips and elbows missing. That means his production record to date is 35% of his offspring with passing hips and elbows or 30% if you don't count the offspring with poor PennHIP results.

That is a risk I would not take even with a bitch with a very solid background of certifications. Though, your opinion may be different.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

glad you found the PH on the one, Laura. I too find Lloyd WAAAAYY to big a risk. For even a bitch who has a very solid background for clearances, which Alex is lacking. She needs (if she passes OFAs) a dog w the best of backgrounds, color aside.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> glad you found the PH on the one, Laura.


Me too. I really wanted to see is this dogs production record was as poor as it seemed so I went digging. The lack of a public verification database is one of my biggest pet peeves with PennHIP. It would be nice if those using PennHIP would pay the small fee and have OFA record them. It would be so much easier to research. 

I am glad that they are changing their report because though that dog scored above the 50% percentile, her hips at .41/.51 are mild risk and moderate risk respectively.

I am wondering if that graph will drive some to no longer use PennHIP since it now includes risk categories that are much easier for the everyday Joe to understand.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Yes I've been emailing with one of the users here and I wanted to give the stud owner the benefit of the doubt on the breeding of her stud. She said he has 'good hips' and has a great background. I sent her a nice email asking for records, telling her about the DNA sale (expired jan 3rd), telling her about the fee for the switch from penn hips to OFA. Its been over two days and no response. She said this would be his 4th or 5th litter... so she knows what she is doing. I can't believe no other dog owner has asked her these same questions I asked. With the ICT gene and the poor hips... those poor puppies!!! and those families who think they are getting a high quality dog. Of course we will NOT be moving forward. Red flags are one thing... but misleading a person and then ignoring them? I am really bummed out though as I was SO excited to have the experience with my girl of having puppies and raising them with her. I am feeling a bit crushed and betrayed. But, if you are going to do something like this, you better make it right. At least as much as you can. I know we will find someone. Besides I'm still waiting on official results from OFA and from paw prints genetics too. (And then after that we have more legwork to do.) I've learned SO much in these past few weeks, its been wonderful. I talk with a lot of dog owner friends (none are breeders) about dog nutrition, dog behavior, etc. And now I'll be able to help (at least try to help) any friends and family find a healthy dog/puppy based on what all of you have taught me so far.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

It's not a switch from PH to OFA- it's paying (basically) OFA to verify the PH and then post them. I think it is $8. 
You'll find a great stud dog, and if she denies you help (since she's local and apparently experienced) then I think that is quite telling re: her ethics. I'd go help ANY new breeder anywhere around here. Most people would. Help should never be dependent on using her stud dog.

Independent verification is important because PH can be falsified. 
The ICT - she really (as a CARRIER stud dog owner ) ought to be requiring bitches to have the DNA test. That's just common sense.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Just want to follow up still nothing back from the stud owner. We have completely removed her from the list of possibilities (obviously). Thank you all for helping us avoid a huge mistake!!!!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken, we've had six pages about Alex, and not a single picture. Somehow, that seems immoral...

:worthless


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

*Photos*

Yes I was hoping I could take some nice photos.. these past few weeks have flown by here. My family is out of town, so I've been taking care of their homes (lots of snow up here) working (of course, 45hrs/wk adds up  ), and my grandfather has taken an awful spill - I literally just carried him to emergency this past weekend and have been checking on him daily (doesn't help literally ALL of our family is gone this month - snowbirds). Also, add his house to the "list" of properties to keep an eye on... Also during this time Alex went into her heat!!! (I thought we had some more time - like another 2 months...) But I think the failed stud (er, choice to turn down the offer), and the early heat have happened for a reason... our plates are just way too full right now. I wont be able to find the time anytime soon for the professional/show pictures but I do have old pictures of course  So those will have to work, I should have settled with those in the first place I suppose (was just hoping I'd have the time...). She is the lighter colored golden and the darker golden is my Mom's pup. I LOVE when they get together as I love the two colors <3 They are both very sweet dogs!!! (Okay now let me figure out how to post pics....)


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Okay I think they are attached... The most recent ones are the one where she has my scarf on, and the ones with the snow. We have a park close to our home and we spend a lot of time there when possible


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I guess I am updating!!
So, Alex got ALL her clearances, and they are ALL on OFA, 
and she has found a lovely fully clearanced stud dog with titles and is expecting puppies!!

Sometimes we have happy endings....


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Wow is that awesome news!

So wonderful to see a caring new breeder start off on a great path. 

I and sending good thoughts for an easy whelp and look forward to seening puppy pictures.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

That IS a good update. For all the time and energy so many of you experienced breeders take here trying to educate (and you all know who you wonderful people are!), for all the CRAP you get directed your way from people who don't want to hear what you are saying, it's so nice to know that it DOES pay off. Thank you - and congratulations!!


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

I think Prism in particular deserves a GRF Above & Beyond Award (if there was such a thing) for all she does in helping people navigate the breeding process here on the forum. That kind of involvement takes time and shows how much she cares. A round of applause to her and other experienced people who help newbies so much here!


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## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

I am eternally grateful to Prism as well as you, Jane, and all of the other wonderful breeders here who take the time, energy and effort to help all of us. I have learned so much from all of you. And, of course, I LOVE seeing photos of all of your litters


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

G-bear said:


> I am eternally grateful to Prism as well as you, Jane, and all of the other wonderful breeders here who take the time, energy and effort to help all of us. I have learned so much from all of you. And, of course, I LOVE seeing photos of all of your litters


I don't think I deserve much credit for helping people the way Prism does. I do excel at posting cute puppy pics tho


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I can't wait to see the puppy pictures when they are born. How exciting!!!!!!!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LOL.... thank you but really I do it because I so love this breed. And because I have time on my hands....one day I will be free again and I will become a pop-in person...thank you for making me welcome.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Brave said:


> I can't wait to see the puppy pictures when they are born. How exciting!!!!!!!!


Me too- I hope she will share with us!


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Hey guys! Sorry I don't log in here too much! Yes we went through all the important items and I am so happy we did! I've learned so much and Robin has helped me IMMENSELY! I'll try to keep this thread updated. Alex was ovulating Wednesday July 12th, and she was breed that Friday afternoon! She has just entered into her 4th week... if she is pregnant we are looking at (roughly) Wednesday September 13th due date! 

I'm not sure if she is or isnt. Her nipples are longer... she has been sleeping (but no more than usual), at first she was eating a ton and now shes not eating. She is more cuddly with me now too. I did notice her gums go to a pale pink and then back to her bright pink. She dosent have a belly or anything like that yet! I know we can go into the vet, but I think we will wait another week or so to confirm. Going to the vet seems so final, I kind of like wondering if she is or isnt. Shes very happy (& healthy), and thats what important to us  

Once confirmed we have to get moving on a whelp box (although I think we will use a kiddy pool for the first 2 weeks). We are sooooo excited! Thanks so much to this group!! Any food/pills recommendations? Or just quality puppy food? Shes on her regular Zignature now.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I give a half of a stress-B tab every day- it has folic acid in it, and is water soluble so will pee out. 
Don't give calcium but do have some Calsorb on hand for her whelp- everyone will have different opinions but personally as soon as mine get a puppy out, I give her some calsorb. Sometimes I make a mother's pudding, too (that's for when I am in OCD mode) and give her some of that as well between puppies but not before first one. 
If your vet is ok with it, you might ask for some dopram for in case a puppy is unresponsive- use under the tongue- 
have lots of mechanics towels, washed, a garbage bag, some hemostats, lots of pads or paper or whatever you're going to whelp on... a box with a heating pad for keeping puppies warm if she is a gusher type when she delivers, since you'll want to clean up between puppies...

and again if vet is ok with it and you're not planning to take her in for exam after whelp, get some oxytocin for clean out after puppies are all here.
Let us know when you confirm pregnancy! 
28-31 days is best for ultrasound. If you're going to do radiographs for a count, you'll wait till 56 days or so. And post the pic here so we can all count too. Vicarious living is fun.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Awesome thank you! 

I searched for Strees-B tab online and couldn't find anything. Is that through the vet? I did find Calsorb on amazon after a quick search. I'll check petflow as I usually order from them. 

I found this cool online article concerning a golden's diet before & during pregnancy (scientifically reviewed studies). I'm sure you have all seen it before, but just in case: Nutritional Management of the Bitch

I checked the recommended items and % levels against our current food, and we are getting everything considered to be vital (fat % could be higher, ours is 16% and they say 20%) I do add olive oil from time to time! Ha. This is our food, its so expensive, but I love it. If I had to switch I'd be interested in trying Fromm someday. SALMON FORMULA (DRY) | Zignature 

I didnt see anything in there about adding in puppy food though?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Nature Made and Solaray are two brands I go back and forth between on the B vitamins- 
Target or Walgreens sell. Personally, I never feed the bitch puppy food. They get it when pups are weaning and they are cleaning up their mess, but otherwise, they stay on all life stages food. At the height of nursing, it might be 10 cups a day if it's a big litter. 
I hope she's showing signs of pregnancy!!


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Just updating this post... Alex is at day 64 today! TONS of nesting! Will update when puppies arrive


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Good Morning everyone and happy Saturday! This last week was ruff, but we are one big happy GR family today! 

Alex was due this past Wednesday (63 days from ovulation, ovulation tested by progesterone). She starting nesting on Monday, and left us guessing all week! She was restless and uneasy most of the week, which left me restless and nervous. I didnt start taking her temperature at all as I read thats really uncomfortable for expecting moms and it dosent give you much indication. BUT given pre-labor and/or stage one I really wish I would have! Curses to the person who wrote that blog post! 

Wednesday came and went. No puppies! Wednesday night she was SO restless. Up and down all night long. Thursday she starting nesting HARD (day 84). She even starting DIGGING in the backyard! Something she would never do!!! (She isnt a digger at all.) Thursday night was coming and no puppy. This was day 84, and being an inexperienced breeder I got scared. I starting googling and I found dog inertia. I thought maybe her body just wouldn't start stage 2! THEN I took her temperature (6:30pm and it was 98.4. Did it just get there? Had i been there all day? I had no clue, I wish I would have started taking it a day before she we due! 

I started to panic and I called my breeder (well, I call her my breeder, but she is the stud owner who has done this before). I'm getting scared, I'm reading about puppies separating from placentas at day 65... My breeder recommends calling the vet in our area thats open (also happens to be the best breeding clinic in the area). I explain everything and my concerns. Also its Alex's first litter (obviously). Another red flag here is that when we went to breed Alex locally the proven stud dog couldn't get it in. The breeder felt awful! She actually called her vet and they did an AI on the spot! (asked me first of course.) That vet said Alex was abnormally 'tight', and thats probably why he couldnt. Otherwise there time together was "textbook" and it should have been no problem. So, the breeders clinic recommended I bring her in just to check everything out. 

At this point its 9:00pm. So we go in, they check the pups out on the ultrasound and count heartbeats (all is well, all pups are doing great), they check out mom she is doing great no signs of distress. The vet does a physical and checks the birth canal. This vet did say "yes she seems tighter than most, but I see no reason why she can't have the pups naturally". So a good $300 later we leave, but we know Mom and pups are doing great and truly thats all I care about!! They did say she should have these pups overnight. If she dosent a c-section may be required tomorrow (friday). 

We get home (10:30pm - this vet is 40mins away from us one-way) and nothing. I mean Alex runs to her nesting area, I mean she RUNS to it. I stay up with her for a few hours, nothing. I sleep next to her whelping area. She slept all night. 

Friday morning (day 65) I get up at 6:30, no changes. Alex is still just panting in her whelping area. I think, okay well vet opens at 7am I will call them. I better get her temperature first. I text my Mom (who has been super helpful, she had 3 litters when I was really little but she never went to the vet, she dosent know about taking the temperate, the day count, etc.). I let alex outside, I go pee, take my morning meds and go back to Alex let her in. I dont know why I didnt call the vet right away, but I turned the TV on (still waking up). I notice Alex is more uncomfortable than she has been. 

Then I literally see her waterbreak 7:15am. I text my Mom, shes on her way. 
Then I think I see a puppy coming already! Its a big brown bubble just sticking out a little. Its just sitting there. 
8:05 my mom gets here (Alex stands up because she is so excited), and nope not a puppy more water! 
Alex is afraid becuase she thinks she went "potty in the house" I give her kisses and say thats okay, lets go outside. She poops. 

We go back inside and we wait. Nothing. I'm like oh **** labor stalled again? We wait. 
9:15 finally start to notice contractions! (This whole time I wasn't sure what a contraction looked like - sometimes I would think maybe she was having them. As the vet said "if you dont know for sure then its NOT a contraction!")
Contractions are almost every minute! She has 3-4 in a row and then a break for 4-5mins, and then it starts back up. I can tell they are getting stronger and stronger... 

9:44 - first female is born!! 
9:54 - first male is born!!
9:59 - male
10:22 - female
11:03 - male
12:03 - male

Alex did such a GOOD JOB!!!!! She opened the sacs herself, she chewed through the umbilical cord, and she ate every placenta (she didnt have to I would have thrown those out). I was ready to handle all of it. The night before the vet went through everything with me and gave me tons of supplies! We did have two trouble pups. The third one born Alex chewed too close to the puppies tummy and the puppy started to lose a lot of blood. Thanks to that awesome vet I clamped it and waited a few minutes and the bleeding stopped. I dont think the pup would have died, but I'm glad I was able to handle that quickly!! Prior I knew to use the floss to tie it off, but she chewed way to close. Nothing to tie!!! The 5th pup broke through its sac in the birth canal. As soon as I could see its feet, I saw it was purple and I did pull it out gently and swiftly with the contractions. I never though a puppy could actually be purple, I guess thats more than a saying. As soon as it took a deep breath it immediately turned back to pink/tan. Thank god. I was really scared. 

Also, you'll notice there was literally an hour between the last 2 pups. I called the vet and I was worried. Thats just TOO long! Vet said give her ice cream, which we did. 20 mins ago I said, vet said oh good it should just start kicking in. I also gave her a a little calsorb too. Vet said get her up and moving around. Which we just did before I called. We took her for a potty break (she peed). As soon as I hung up, literally as I hit "end call" contractions started again and a pup popped out in under 10 minutes! Hahaha, so that was a HUGE relief. Anyone, without further delay... here are the pictures from yesterday. Birth order is ROYGBIV (but we only had 6 puppies so drop the I or V, last one is purple). 

Can I just say thank you so much to this forum. I would not have made it this far without you guys, my vets, my breeder (stud dog), and my Mom!!! Thanks to Alex for being the BEST dog ever (which i already knew) and an amazing dog Mom!!! She is just awesome with the pups you guys. Just AWESOME. She is doing everything a GR mom does and then some. I'll have to force her away here in a little for a potty break.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Congratulations, they are beautiful. 

Just read through the entire thread, what a journey you've been on.


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> Congratulations, they are beautiful.
> 
> Just read through the entire thread, what a journey you've been on.


Oh my goodness yes! Its been really great though. I'm glad we are where we are today! Ignorance is bliss though... I can't stand most of the breeders I see today, no health testing and what seems like a small (or no) regard for their dogs wellbeing and sky high prices... I cringe. (I do not see this here on this forum!) One lady wanted to breed her dog (10 turning 11) because she thought $800 was too much for a puppy... I scared her out of that position thank god. Last year though, I didn't know any better either.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Congratulations on the beautiful babies. I hope you'll post more photos as they grow - which they do FAST


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Beautiful puppies  Congratulations.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

They are beautiful- and I hope you will also post a test breeding link so we can see the litter pedigree! I'm so happy for you- and happy that you did it the right way!! We need more breeders-


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## zeyadeen (May 10, 2017)

Congratulations, lovely puppies and a wonderful mam, wishing you all the best and enjoy the journey, hope you will keep us posted with puppies pics as they grow


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

I did have a test breeding figured out on k9data... between Alex & Dare. I'm not sure if this link will post publicly since its in my "profile". Dare is the sweetest dog, he was a bit older than I wanted (8), but he is only 40 minutes away and having someone local (which has been IMPOSSIBLE to find) was really huge for me. Lisa (his owner) has been a huge help throughout the entire process ans has explained so much! So I looked past his age. Temperament was excellent (the few days I spent met with him anyway), health history great, features great (imho), and his hunting experience really caught my eye. Also he was a proven stud, so another reason I went with him. And the pups he throws (from other litters) turned out to be just gorgeous! He is an ICT carrier, but not affected, and Allie isn't a carrier! Yay! Good thing we had the DNA testing done  If this link dosent work let me know and maybe I can post screen shots? 

Pedigree: Test Alex and Dare


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

Oh shoot I forgot to mention he has all the standard items one would require: he is AKC, hips & elbows, heart & eye cert updated too. I now just assume all dogs have had this done which is NOT the case!


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## MaureenM (Sep 20, 2011)

Congratulations!!! The puppies are adorable, so glad the whelping went well. I read through the whole thread, so interesting and informative. I have to give you credit (and everyone that does this), I'd have been a nervous wreck. Looking forward to pictures!


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## Alexismygirl (Dec 20, 2016)

MaureenM said:


> Congratulations!!! The puppies are adorable, so glad the whelping went well. I read through the whole thread, so interesting and informative. I have to give you credit (and everyone that does this), I'd have been a nervous wreck. Looking forward to pictures!


Thank you! I really had a great support system, honestly. I could not have done this without help!! Especially when I'm texting my breeder (stud owner) at all times of the day about weird/scary things I find on google. hahah, she has been amazing and helped calm me down!


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Posting just to say congrats and to continue following this thread!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

And I want to say to everyone here- this litter was a GOOD one- because the Alex's mom was a literal sponge to do this the right way. She has a lovely bitch, and listened with an open heart and mind when she was discouraged from using stud#1, and went and got clearances on her girl, and is going to add to our ranks of good breeders I know. 
So many people come here, get their panties all ruffled and feelings hurt, and really- it isn't hard to do this right. It just takes being willing to not get upset when the advice isn't what you want to hear. Breeders who've been doing it all wrong for years are not as reliable as Alex's owner is today-- I am proud of our community and cannot wait to see test breeding link and puppy pics!


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