# On the Dog food analysis



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

How many stars do you shoot for on the dry foods?


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I shoot for what my dogs do best on. And according to the dog food analysis sites, my dogs are being fed junk. And I have no intention of changing, either.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I would not base my decision of food based on this site. It is not run by a canine nutritionist and is very biased toward grain free. There are many good foods out there, both with and without grain. It all depends on what your individual dog does best on. Here is a much better site to learn about what to look for. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/

BTW, I used to use the dogfood analysis site as a handy reference to dog food and their ingredients, but then I found that many foods were not updated as maufacturers changed recipes. It's off my radar screen now.


----------



## cola3812 (Nov 29, 2009)

I am one of those that bought into this website and changed my puppy from Eukanuba to Orijen LBP with horrible side effects. On Eukanuba my puppy had firm stools but was going frequently. I decided to try Orijen (6 star food from their website) and my poor puppy suffered horrible gas, and loose, mushy, runny stools. I gave it a full month and a half and it never got better. Needless to say, I have him back on Eukanuba and his stools have firmed up again and the gas is gone.


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

My guy is on Orijen fish - 6 stars, i think. He's on the fish formula since I thought he had allergies the first month I had him so we made the change from Iams to Orijen. 

He was okay on Iams - coat was fairly shiny, normal poops, ate about 4 cups a day and stayed a good weight. He is THRIVING on the orijen though. His coat is gleaming, he has more energy (we can play fetch for more than 15 mins without him wanting to go lay down) and no more "mental shut-downs" on walks/obedience sessions over 30 mins ago. I only feed him 2 cups of the Orijen and he still gets a little plump if we don't go for an hour walk a day. 

It did take a long time to transition him to it. About 6-8 weeks of mixing with the Iams before he could handle just the Orijen. I think the transition is harder for dogs when they go from a by-filler food to a protein rich food and it should take a little more time. My dog can switch now from Orijen to Acana to Go! and he has no dietary upsets at all. Just like I'm sure dogs can switch from Iams to Purina to whatever and they won't have as hard a time as if they'd been switched to a protein rich food.


----------



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the replies! Penny & Maggie's mom thanks for the other site info too! I only asked the question as the whole dog food thing is such a darn headache to me, I checked the food I'm feeding on there, and it says it's a four star food, but the ingredients look bad to me......:doh:


----------



## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

I think as long as you stay away from a food with corn and try to find a food with the first ingrediant being a meal, like chicken meal or lamb meal, you will find a good food.
The dog food analysys website is good for pointing out which companies use natural preservatives. This is a huge factore in deciding what I feed my dog.

Cody has always done better on foods with no grains(stool wise) but we have yet been able to find a food that has gotten rid of his ear infections. we have tried everything from Iams, Wellness, Orijen and Acana to California Natural, and nothing has worked. we are now going to try raw to see what happens.
It really is an individual thing, but I strongly believe that dogs will react over time to a poor diet. Just like humans, they can only eat crap for so long before their bodies just can't tolerate it any longer.


----------



## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

Olympia said:


> Thanks for the replies! Penny & Maggie's mom thanks for the other site info too! I only asked the question as the whole dog food thing is such a darn headache to me, I checked the food I'm feeding on there, and it says it's a four star food, but the ingredients look bad to me......:doh:


What food are you feeding?


----------



## unclelar (Oct 10, 2009)

I first came to this site because I was looking for the right food for my two. I used the other web site to check the ingredients and see how the food was rated. I was hoping to find a 4-5 star food that I could afford. After all that, and finding that nutrition is as volatile subject as politics. With all that said I feed my two Wellness Core Low fat which is a 6 star. I feed it not because it is 6 star but because Buddy and Lady are doing great on it and loosing weight and their coat feels great, and they have energy. I have read where other dogs don't do well on it. The site is a good tool as with the Great Dane Lady but my two are the final judge with in reason.(sorry Ol' Roy)


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with corn in moderation, and a lot of those dog food websites promote unsubstantiated myths that allow boutique dog food manufacturers to charge inflated prices.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

what he said.




tippykayak said:


> There's nothing wrong with corn in moderation, and a lot of those dog food websites promote unsubstantiated myths that allow boutique dog food manufacturers to charge inflated prices.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I feed my dogs junk, too. I think the same junk you feed your dogs.
I think they've done pretty well on it, since my older two are 12 and 13 years old.
Whatever works for an individual dog is what you need to feed that dog. Period. No matter what some self-proclaimed expert website says about that food.
And while I'm at it, a lot of people are in very tough economic situations right now. There are a lot of excellent foods out there that have a proven track record of many, many generations of dogs and don't cost an arm and a leg. 
Stick with what works for your dog, and what works for your economic situation. 




Pointgold said:


> I shoot for what my dogs do best on. And according to the dog food analysis sites, my dogs are being fed junk. And I have no intention of changing, either.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I wonder how many people know that the #1 dog food bed by professional handlers and breeders used to be KenLBiskit. I can't tell you how many say that if it were still available today that ALL their show dogs /performance dogs would be on it. THE Mother of all parties at Westminster used to be the Quaker awards. Ken-L-Biskit used to be owned by Quaker Oats, and was sold to Heinz in the mid 90's. The marketing of "designer" and "holistic" foods and a bajillion different "flavors" etc etc did it in. I'd feed it again - my dogs did fine on it. I fed it before I fed Iams, and our sled dog teams ate it.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Of course this is just a personal opinion, but I do like the food I feed my dogs to have actually been TESTED on dogs before it hits the market.
It's shocking how many have not been.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Of course this is just a personal opinion, but I do like the food I feed my dogs to have actually been TESTED on dogs before it hits the market.
> It's shocking how many have not been.


Yeah, well, the "I won't feed it to my dogs if I won't eat it myself" credo rules... 
I won't eat liver or raw bones, but I'll feed 'em to my dogs. I think that is so much of it - people making _themselves _feel better, whether it is actually beneficial to the dogs or not.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Yeah, well, the "I won't feed it to my dogs if I won't eat it myself" credo rules...
> I won't eat liver or raw bones, but I'll feed 'em to my dogs. I think that is so much of it - people making _themselves _feel better, whether it is actually beneficial to the dogs or not.


It all boils down to people possessing the mindset of treating dogs as "little humans in fur coats" rather than as the animals that they really are.
This segment of dog owners can't deal with the thought feeding their dog something that doesn't sound palatable to them. Most would be shocked to learn that given a choice between the carefully selected all natural holistic diet and a road killed armadillo thats been laying in the Texas sun for half a day, their dogs would prefer the armadillo.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have to laugh here at the pet hotel when people bring their dog bottled water, "holistic human grade" food and treats, and then said dog is out in the yard wolfing down poop as fast as they can find it, eating worms, and lapping up water from any muddy puddle they can find. Amuses me to no end. Um, hello, I'm a DOG.




Swampcollie said:


> It all boils down to people possessing the mindset of treating dogs as "little humans in fur coats" rather than as the animals that they really are.
> This segment of dog owners can't deal with the thought feeding their dog something that doesn't sound palatable to them. Most would be shocked to learn that given a choice between the carefully selected all natural holistic diet and a road killed armadillo thats been laying in the Texas sun for half a day, their dogs would prefer the armadillo.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

One of the problems is that "holistic," "natural," and "human grade" have no legal meaning on a dog food bag. I'm all for getting a great food for a dog, all for natural ingredients, and all for paying extra for good nutrition, but those claims need to be evaluated very, very carefully.

At the same time, there is some great marketing getting done on boutique dog foods (for lack of a better term) that allows them to charge very high prices for foods that aren't as thoroughly tested as less expensive, excellent foods. I have no confidence that a food with the right number of "named meat ingredients" early in the list is necessarily better than one that has chicken byproduct meal.

I'm very confident in the quality of the food I give, since I've been feeding Goldens one variety of Eukanuba or another since the late eighties, and I have friends who've fed it for even longer.

I also get frustrated when people are made to feel guilty for giving their dogs food with harmless or even healthy ingredients like corn, or for not paying exorbitant prices for better-marketed foods.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> It all boils down to people possessing the mindset of treating dogs as "little humans in fur coats" rather than as the animals that they really are.
> This segment of dog owners can't deal with the thought feeding their dog something that doesn't sound palatable to them. Most would be shocked to learn that given a choice between the carefully selected all natural holistic diet and a road killed armadillo thats been laying in the Texas sun for half a day, their dogs would prefer the armadillo.


 
Dogs have a very poor sense of taste, as they have a _very _small number of taste buds. They determine what is palatable based on smell. And we humans (who only smell a minute part of what our dogs smell) find dead fish, road kill, rotting garbage offensive smell, while our dogs think they are fantastic!
Human idesire to offer our dogs a variety of foods because they get bored is just that - human. As long as it smells good to _them_, they'll eat it. They aren't saying "Ho hum. I'm so bored with chicken. I want beef. And let's make next month's flavor dujour lamb..."


----------



## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

I like the one called "Canine Caviar", unbelievably expensive. I think of it when the bumpasses are looking for dead (or live) fish to dine on at the river (for free).


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Abbydabbydo said:


> I like the one called "Canine Caviar", unbelievably expensive. I think of it when the bumpasses are looking for dead (or live) fish to dine on at the river (for free).


Seriously. What my guys would order from takeout, given the choice, is rotten deer with a side of goose poop.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I asked a breeder friend of mine what she feed her dogs. Her response was.... 
I feed Purina. My dogs do very well on it. Purina products are tested on dogs. It is an easy to find brand all over the country, I know my puppy buyers can find it easily and afford to feed it. 

If my breeding animals experience dull coats, lack of energy, allergies and skin issues etc.etc.etc. on it (Purina) then they dont deserve to be a part of my breeding program.

Thought it was an interesting perspective....


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That is a very interesting perspective, and I like it.
along the same lines, someone in obedience the other day made the comment that, instead of constantly lowering the jump heights required, people ought to try breeding dogs who can still jump the required heights, like ALL the dogs 25 years ago could even though the heights were higher then.
(I think her exact comment might have been, "stop whining about the jump heights and breed sound dogs")



LibertyME said:


> I asked a breeder friend of mine what she feed her dogs. Her response was....
> I feed Purina. My dogs do very well on it. Purina products are tested on dogs. It is an easy to find brand all over the country, I know my puppy buyers can find it easily and afford to feed it.
> 
> If my breeding animals experience dull coats, lack of energy, allergies and skin issues etc.etc.etc. on it (Purina) then they dont deserve to be a part of my breeding program.
> ...


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> One of the problems is that "holistic," "natural," and "human grade" have no legal meaning on a dog food bag. I'm all for getting a great food for a dog, all for natural ingredients, and all for paying extra for good nutrition, but those claims need to be evaluated very, very carefully.


Most of the foods that are sold based on those claims are untested. Some are good, some are not so good. But even the not so good ones receive high ratings because they "conform" to the evaluators personal philosophy on foods. Whether or not a product actually delivers successful results isn't relevant to the rating.





tippykayak said:


> I'm very confident in the quality of the food I give, since I've been feeding Goldens one variety of Eukanuba or another since the late eighties, and I have friends who've fed it for even longer.
> 
> I also get frustrated when people are made to feel guilty for giving their dogs food with harmless or even healthy ingredients like corn, or for not paying exorbitant prices for better-marketed foods.


I agree. I am particularly irritated when somebody goes on and on about how great a type of product is, while their total experience with feeding them is limited to one or two dogs, ("and one of them has allergies") and then for a very limited period of time (less than ten years). I tend to place a great deal more confidence in people who have been successfully feeding multiple dogs, enjoying proven results and doing it for decades. They've seen first hand the results that a good food brings along with the disasters a poor food brings. 

Ingredient panels on a bag of food are a good tool for general reference, but contrary to popular myth it is a poor criteria upon which to rate foods. Why?? Because the usefulness of ingredients varies depending upon the source. You really don't know what you're going to get until you feed the product for a while and measure the results.


If cost is no object, you can hire a Veterinary Nutritionist to come in every day to prepare your dogs' meals. You'll have a healthy dog, but at a great price. On the other hand if you're like most people, cost does enter into the equation and you have to measure the results delivered against the price paid. For most families, it's very hard to justify spending two dollars or more per pound for pet food, when you can achieve equal or better results on a food that sells for one dollar or less per pound.


----------



## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Tippykayak, I agree with all your comments. I loved your reply to what your dogs would order. LOL Speaking of kayak's, check out my site and see Gunner on the back of my kayak.

I personally feed my dog Kumpi. I have become a personal friend of the president of the company. I love her view on things and I feel perfectly safe to feed my dog her food. Anyone can call her or email her and she will tell you all about her food. Check her out at www.kumpi.com


----------



## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> That is a very interesting perspective, and I like it.
> along the same lines, someone in obedience the other day made the comment that, instead of constantly lowering the jump heights required, people ought to try breeding dogs who can still jump the required heights, like ALL the dogs 25 years ago could even though the heights were higher then.
> (I think her exact comment might have been, "stop whining about the jump heights and breed sound dogs")


How true....I like that post!

It's so easy to get caught up in idea that products are what make our dogs. I know everyone hears the stories that they have to do this and they must do that, I fell into myself wanting to do the best thing for my guys and they just turn around and eat the grossest junk they can find!
When I first got goldens I fretted over what food to feed them, but then I read a magazine article written by a successful show breeder that fed Eukanuba after trying several of holistic brands that get pushed. She said her dogs coats were best on the Eukanuba and they seemed to thrive on it (not that it's a cheap food). Sammi has eaten that for 8yrs now and when I tried several others (not sure why) her stools were never good so I've always gone back to Eukanuba with her.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

LibertyME said:


> If my breeding animals experience dull coats, lack of energy, allergies and skin issues etc.etc.etc. on it (Purina) then they dont deserve to be a part of my breeding program.
> 
> Thought it was an interesting perspective....


 
And it's worth keeping in mind when searching for a dog. 

When you run across a breeder who insists that their pups can only be fed this particular food and you must use supplements x, y and z, a red flag should go up in the back of your mind. Why? What will happen if a pup is fed something else? There are people who have found ways to "Feed Around" a problem. So long as the feeding plan is followed the "Problem" (often allergies) remains concealed. While I find it unethical to breed such animals, there are always some who do not. They don't see a problem so long as the animal can be fed in some fashion and look normal.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

There are two things that I've been seeing quite a bit at shows that really upset me (I know, I'm naive, sorry). 
The first is dogs (who belong to known breeders) who are chalked like crazy in between the toes and between the pads to cover the lick stains. To me that screams out "allergy". And since these people are breeders, and they're showing their dogs in breed, one would assume they plan to breed them.
The other is dogs (who also belong to known breeders) who have to be kept away from any other dogs so they won't "eat them". (exact words from one this weekend). Again, one would assume they are planning to breed these dogs with the dog aggressive temperaments.
So very upsetting. At least to me.




Swampcollie said:


> And it's worth keeping in mind when searching for a dog.
> 
> When you run across a breeder who insists that their pups can only be fed this particular food and you must use supplements x, y and z, a red flag should go up in the back of your mind. Why? What will happen if a pup is fed something else? There are people who have found ways to "Feed Around" a problem. So long as the feeding plan is followed the "Problem" (often allergies) remains concealed. While I find it unethical to breed such animals, there are always some who do not. They don't see a problem so long as the animal can be fed in some fashion and look normal.


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree, feed what you can afford that works for your dog. That might be the higher priced food, might not be. Also use common sense, dogs don't care if their food has colors and shapes in it - they eat poop. Don't get sold on the 'keep to one brand only' thing either, pick 4-5 that you like in your price range and go with them. That way you can always get something for them to eat if one's sold out.

I'd love to say feed raw only, but unless you can do the homework and find reasonable sources of it, it's expensive and a lot of work. If you can do the odd chicken back or pork neck meal on some days and feed kibble the others, great!

Lana


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> That is a very interesting perspective, and I like it.
> along the same lines, someone in obedience the other day made the comment that, instead of constantly lowering the jump heights required, people ought to try breeding dogs who can still jump the required heights, like ALL the dogs 25 years ago could even though the heights were higher then.
> (I think her exact comment might have been, "stop whining about the jump heights and breed sound dogs")


 
Yup, I agree. One of the top obedience golden breeders tends to breed dogs with horrible fronts - they've gone away from soundness. Or at least they had last time I checked. People would pay and arm and a leg for an obedience dog that they had to coddle because their front ends were so poor/weak that they'd have cronic problems... you'd think 'performance' would start with structure!

Lana


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Some posters in this thread seem not to be aware that there are brands of kibble that fit the following profile:

Sold only at independent retailers
Sold at all price levels 
Have been feed-tested on animals
Offer different choices of nutritional makeup and profiles than some of the old traditionals

Three examples:

Natura (higher priced EVO to lower priced Healthwise at $1 per lb)

Champion Pet Foods (higher priced Orijen to moderate priced Acana with grains)

FirstMate (around $1.25 per lb.)

In a nutshell: there are some good foods and not-so-good foods at many price points sold both at chains and independent retailers. 

To lump everything not sold at a chain store as “expensive”, “boutique” and “not tested on animals” is simply not accurate.


----------



## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Okay, I have a (stupid) question and think this is a good place to ask.

How do you know if your dog "does well" on a food? If he's not having rock poos, runny poos, no poos? If he's not itching up a storm? If his ears stay clear and gunk free?


----------



## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't go by what a certain web site says about a food. I go by how my dogs are doing on what they are eating. We happen to own a dog (Tucker) with a corn allergy. He had problems with getting yeast infections in his ears when we had him on foods like Pro Plan and Eukanuba. We now have him on California Natural and he no longer has problems. We currently have Tyson and Kodiak on Pro Plan and they do extremely well on it. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as the perfect food. As long as my dogs have firm and small stools, clean ears, a good energy level, and a soft and shiny coat, we will not change what we are feeding, even if the dog food analysis web site says that it's junk, which is what they seem to think about Pro Plan, yet so many people have been feeding it for years with outstanding results. We do also supplement our dogs with fish oil every day.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Mssjnnfer said:


> Okay, I have a (stupid) question and think this is a good place to ask.
> 
> How do you know if your dog "does well" on a food? If he's not having rock poos, runny poos, no poos? If he's not itching up a storm? If his ears stay clear and gunk free?


A shiny coat that feels good when you run your hand through it. Lots of energy. Good endurance. Bright eyes without discharge. Solid stools on a regular schedule, not super hard, not super soft. No itching, excessive paw licking, etc. Little or no gas. Good overall health, no ear issues (except for regular cleaning, which is necessary for most Goldens).


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I sure wish Shadow didn't have so many allergies. I'd put them both on a different food and it would be much less expensive. My childhood dog lived to 16. My Cocker Spaniel lived to 17. They ate nothing special and Gaines Burgers were part of the menu way back when.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> Natura (higher priced EVO to lower priced Healthwise at $1 per lb)


Healthwise contains Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (a form of B6) that causes neurotoxic effects in high doses.

http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/6/757.abstract


----------



## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I think this is a great thread. I initially bought into the whole Dog Food Analysis thing, but I'm starting to realize how silly it is. Lots of good foods have terrible listings on there, including prescription diets. It really scares me a person might have their dog on an RX diet and then switch bc of a website's analysis of that food... where is the testing on dogs to make their analysis valid??

I feed Fromm Surf and Turf... it's extremely expensive, and I have considered switching. So far, I haven't switched because it's the first food Milly has truly thrived on. Would I feed this to my next dog, probably not. Will I continue feeding it to Milly? Yes, unless some medical issue arises or there is a real reason to switch her diet. 

I have many friends who buy their dog food at *gasp* the grocery store! I have friends that feed Pedigree (that's a food I don't think is very good), Purina One, and ProPlan... guess what, they all have healthy dogs with gorgeous coats. My vet feeds ProPlan because she is reassured knowing the amount of research and testing Purina has done on dogs... I think that says something.


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Healthwise contains Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (a form of B6) that causes neurotoxic effects in high doses.
> 
> http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/6/757.abstract


Not sure what your point is. Pyridoxine Hedrocholoride (vitamin B6) is present in any dog food I'm aware of from IAMS, Eukanuba, Canidae, Orijen, Acana, Healthwise, and on an on.

Here is my earlier post in full. It's main point is that there are kibbles of varying profiles and prices sold both at chain stores and independents. Point of purchase or price alone doesn't give a very complete picture of any given formula.

_Some posters in this thread seem not to be aware that there are brands of kibble that fit the following profile:

Sold only at independent retailers
Sold at all price levels 
Have been feed-tested on animals
Offer different choices of nutritional makeup and profiles than some of the old traditionals

Three examples:

Natura (higher priced EVO to lower priced Healthwise at $1 per lb)

Champion Pet Foods (higher priced Orijen to moderate priced Acana with grains)

FirstMate (around $1.25 per lb.)

In a nutshell: there are some good foods and not-so-good foods at many price points sold both at chains and independent retailers. 

To lump everything not sold at a chain store as “expensive”, “boutique” and “not tested on animals” is simply not accurate._


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> Not sure what your point is. Pyridoxine Hedrocholoride (vitamin B6) is present in any dog food I'm aware of from IAMS, Eukanuba, Canidae, Orijen, Acana, Healthwise, and on an on.


Just making a point about how chemicals can be made to sound scary _before_ it starts in this thread instead of after.


----------



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm feeding Annamaet Ultra!

http://www.annamaet.com/for_the_dogs.php#ultra


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Just making a point about how chemicals can be made to sound scary _before_ it starts in this thread instead of after.


I thought that thread that you are referring to was closed after things got heated. Are you really supposed to bring it up in another thread?

Amazing.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I thought that thread that you are referring to was closed after things got heated. Are you really supposed to bring it up in another thread?
> 
> Amazing.


The thread was closed because people got personal and insulting, not because the chemical is a taboo topic. If we're discussing dog food websites, which single out chemicals as bad, it's a relevant topic. If I'm not welcome in the thread, just let me know.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> The thread was closed because people got personal and insulting, not because the chemical is a taboo topic. If we're discussing dog food websites, which single out chemicals as bad, it's a relevant topic. If I'm not welcome in the thread, just let me know.


You brought up a subject that was in a closed thread, in a mocking way. There's a reason that many of us who are educated on dog food stay off from these threads now. It's a shame that we are not allowed to share our knowledge and opinions. But we get chased off and mocked. Kind of like your comment above referencing a locked thread. I thought once they were locked that you weren't supposed to bring them up again. But obviously, I'm wrong. I'll again stay away from the food threads because of the nastiness that goes on here.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> You brought up a subject that was in a closed thread, in a mocking way. There's a reason that many of us who are educated on dog food stay off from these threads now. It's a shame that we are not allowed to share our knowledge and opinions. But we get chased off and mocked. Kind of like your comment above referencing a locked thread. I thought once they were locked that you weren't supposed to bring them up again. But obviously, I'm wrong. I'll again stay away from the food threads because of the nastiness that goes on here.


I wasn't mocking. I was making a point that vitamin additives can be made to sound scary if you present them in a particular way. There was no mockery there. Because that thread we closed we're never allowed to discuss vitamins in dog foods again?

Why are you picking a fight here? I just don't get it. You make it sound like I've gone through all the dog food threads and made fun of everyone until they left, which is untrue.

Why are you making this personal and about insults? Why don't we just discuss food?


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Just making a point about how chemicals can be made to sound scary _before_ it starts in this thread instead of after.


I don't think that has anything to do with this thread from any of the posts I've read. You could probably start a new thread about Vitamin B6 or chemicals in general if you have a special interest in it.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> I don't think that has anything to do with this thread from any of the posts I've read. You could probably start a new thread about Vitamin B6 or chemicals in general if you have a special interest in it.


The discussion of vitamin additives is directly relevant to the OP's question about the ratings of dog foods. I don't know why the two of you have decided I'm unwelcome in this thread, but you can have your way.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I wasn't mocking. I was making a point that vitamin additives can be made to sound scary if you present them in a particular way. There was no mockery there. Because that thread we closed we're never allowed to discuss vitamins in dog foods again?
> 
> Why are you picking a fight here? I just don't get it. You make it sound like I've gone through all the dog food threads and made fun of everyone until they left, which is untrue.
> 
> Why are you making this personal and about insults? Why don't we just discuss food?


How many of us who believe in premium foods and reading ingredients and researching what we feed post here anymore? Just about none. We get ganged up on, called elitists and snobs, and are questioned on everything we say. If that doesn't work, we are told that we are accusing vets of being on the buy and accusing people here of feeding their pets poor quality food. Or making up stories about how some additives are questionable.

Personally, it's not worth it to me, but it's sad to see that so many of us are unwilling to post here because we will be talked down to or called names.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> How many of us who believe in premium foods and reading ingredients and researching what we feed post here anymore? Just about none. We get ganged up on, called elitists and snobs, and are questioned on everything we say. If that doesn't work, we are told that we are accusing vets of being on the buy and accusing people here of feeding their pets poor quality food. Or making up stories about how some additives are questionable.
> 
> Personally, it's not worth it to me, but it's sad to see that so many of us are unwilling to post here because we will be talked down to or called names.


Why am I getting ganged up on for this behavior? I've never called anybody an elitist or a snob, nor have I ever accused anyone, least of all you, of making up stories.

I have absolutely not called you names, and if you check that closed thread you'll see it was I who was mocked, not the other way around.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Kimm said:


> They ate nothing special and Gaines Burgers were part of the menu way back when.


Gaines Burgers! Oh man, does that bring back memories. Mine was fed Chuck Wagon. I'm still waiting for that little wagon to come screaming around the corner with the dog in hot pursuit.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Not many people ever agree with me, but I just keep on talking!

SC, that was a cool commercial! I remember Alpo and Kennel Ration?


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

fostermom said:


> You brought up a subject that was in a closed thread, in a mocking way. There's a reason that many of us who are educated on dog food stay off from these threads now. It's a shame that we are not allowed to share our knowledge and opinions. But we get chased off and mocked. Kind of like your comment above referencing a locked thread. I thought once they were locked that you weren't supposed to bring them up again. But obviously, I'm wrong. *I'll again stay away from the food threads because of the nastiness that goes on here*.


I truly hope you keep trying to participate as I'm trying to do also. The difference I see here sometimes, compared to some other dog boards I've looked at, is the tone and style of some nutrition posts. There doesn't always seem to be as much openness and willingness to hear about varying perspectives by some posters There seems to be defensiveness carried over from past threads instead of just starting fresh with each new thread. That's too bad, because I think there are a lot of very intelligent and experienced people on this board who have a lot to share - even if we don't all agree with one another


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Yep, Alpo was a long time sponsor of the Tonight Show. Old Ed McMahon opened a lot of cans and fed it to hundreds of dogs over the years.


----------



## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

MyBentley said:


> The difference I see here sometimes, compared to some other dog boards I've looked at, is the tone and style of some nutrition posts. There doesn't always seem to be as much openness and willingness to hear about varying perspectives by some posters There seems to be defensiveness carried over from past threads instead of just starting fresh with each new thread.


You should visit a lab board I frequent. Much worse over there. 



Swampcollie said:


> Yep, Alpo was a long time sponsor of the Tonight Show. Old Ed McMahon opened a lot of cans and fed it to hundreds of dogs over the years.


Yeah, I remember Ed giving a can to Johnny who was dressed up like a dog.: Back in those days, Alpo was considered a decent brand.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Gaines Burgers! Oh man, does that bring back memories. Mine was fed Chuck Wagon. I'm still waiting for that little wagon to come screaming around the corner with the dog in hot pursuit.


 
GRAVY TRAIN, baby!!! LOL. My sister in law actually still fed that stuff well into the 80's. On her fridge there is a picture of our son, Paul, sitting on her patio with brown, Gravy Train drool pouring out of his 16 month old mouth after he'd shared some of her Great Dane's breakfast!


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> GRAVY TRAIN, baby!!! LOL. My sister in law actually still fed that stuff well into the 80's. On her fridge there is a picture of our son, Paul, sitting on her patio with brown, Gravy Train drool pouring out of his 16 month old mouth after he'd shared some of her Great Dane's breakfast!


I think they still make Gravy Train :uhoh:

Man the old commecials that used to be on TV every day. We don't see anywhere near the amount there used to be.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> I think they still make Gravy Train :uhoh:
> 
> Man the old commecials that used to be on TV every day. We don't see anywhere near the amount there used to be.


 
I sang 
"MY dog's bigger than your dog! My dog's bigger than yours... MY dog's bigger cause he gets KenLRation, my dog's bigger than YOURS!" all the time when I was a little kid. (I had a itty bitty Dachshund... )


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

You can find all of those old commercials on youtube!


----------



## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I tried the fancy pants foods and they all gave Flora farts and diarrhea. Purina Pro Plan has worked wonderfully for her - small poops, no gas, she LOVES it, and it's somewhat cheaper. Of course, according to dogfoodanalysis I am slowly killing Flora with the food, but whatever.


----------



## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> I tried the fancy pants foods and they all gave Flora farts and diarrhea.


I have no idea why, but I found that sentence absolutely hilarious!


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> I tried the fancy pants foods and they all gave Flora farts and diarrhea. Purina Pro Plan has worked wonderfully for her - small poops, no gas, she LOVES it, and it's somewhat cheaper. Of course, according to dogfoodanalysis I am slowly killing Flora with the food, but whatever.


It takes me an average of 14.5 years to kill mine with Pro Plan. It's been this way for well over 15 years now (it's actually 17 years, I just figured it out).


----------



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm sorry if I started something negative! I really am just looking for info. I was wondering with Your Goldens if you find that the Golden community feeds certain brands more so than others?

Like alot of Sibe people feed Annamaet, Blueseal, and Redpaw then we go into a whole array of other kibbles that are fed, then you have the raw feeders......I've tried raw, but hubby was not thrilled with it, so now I do supplement the kibble with raw meaty bones!


I do appreciate the input, I definitely am not well read on the dog foods, and when I have to switch I panic!

I was feeding Wellness for years, the dogs did well on that, but there was one issue that made me switch..... I then fed the cali natural, and innova the dogs did not do well on those at all. My groomer is a Sibe breeder, and feeds her dogs Annamaet, she told me to try it as Jonah's coat was so dry, and brittle after the Cali natural.....His coat is now softer, and they took to the change very well, my only concern was some of the ingredients looked kinda bad to me....


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

You didn't start anything negative. If people turn it into a battle and turned the thread negative, you have no control over their actions. 

IMHO... members should be able to...Ask away!

In our case due to allergies, Shadow is on California Natural. Tucker is/was on Eagle Pack Holistic. For some reason he needs to be able to eat two cups of food a day to not go on the food prowl and the calories were low enough to do this. I just bought something else for him, so we shall see.

Question: Your name sparked my interest. Is your first name Olympia? My sister's friend name is Olympia and she lives/lived in CT. In her younger years she lived in West Haven.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You didn't start it. It started a long time ago on other threads and just carried over here. People don't always play nice.
Here at the pet hotel, a lot of people ask me advice about feeding their dogs because dog nutrition is kind of a special interest of mine and I have an entire library of books about it (not internet fad books, but rather vet school books, results from nutrition symposia, etc.) and yes I've read them all, including the AAFCO book. 
So here's my standard "speech" I give people when they ask me. I've said it so many times it's pretty much memorized:
First, let me say that feeding your dogs is a very individual choice and what works well for one dog doesn't necessarily work for another one. What one person can afford isn't necessarily what another one can afford, and you should never be made to feel guilty for doing the best that you can do with the resources that you have. 
So this is my opinion, but it is based on research, knowledge, and years of experience taking care of hundreds of dogs. 
My personal belief is that you need to stick with the companies that have dedicated the most research money to formulating foods for dogs, and then *within those companies* pick the most expensive food that you can afford. If you can afford their top of the line food, that's great. If not, that's okay too. Their research carries over into all of their foods.
I am the first to admit that their motives in doing the research are not necessarily altruistic. But how does a company make money? By providing the best product it can at a price that people can afford. 
The two biggest players in the canine nutrition research fields are Nestle Purina and Iams/Eukanuba. They both dedicate millions of dollars to research of their foods, as well as canine nutrition in general. They both sponsor veterinary symposiums and publish huge volumes of canine nutrition information. Both are leaders in the field, especially Purina, when it comes to change. Purina was the first to recognize that senior dogs need MORE protein, not less, than younger dogs and to double the protein in their senior foods. They were the first to recognize and publish that different size dogs have different nutritional needs, especially during periods of high growth. That means a lot to me.
Now XYZ company MAY have just come out with the best dog food ever. I'm not saying it's not a great food, or the best one ever made for that matter. But to me, it's a FAD FOOD until it's been proven over at least 5 generations of dogs or more. I love my dogs dearly and *they are NOT LABORATORY RATS. *Until the company has proven to me, over many generations of dogs that live normal life spans with no structural defects, and produce healthy progeny, that their food is better than what I'm feeding, it's not for me. Let other dogs prove it. 
I'm sorry, but a friend/neighbor/someone on the internet having success feeding their dog XYZ food for a few years doesn't prove to me that the food is any good. That's too small of a sample size to have any validity what-so-ever.
Here at the pet hotel, I've boarded quite a few VERY old dogs, who were healthy and structurally sound until the very end. Good genetics, for sure. But every last one of them, including a 16 year old rottweiler, a 17 year old golden, a 20 (!) year old eskie, an 18 year old lab mix, a 19 year old beagle mix, to name a few, ate traditional kibble from one of the two big manufacturers that I named. Most ate Purina, several of them at Purina One. That may be a coincidence, but the point is NONE of them ate new/holistic/fad etc. diets. Just ordinary kibble.
So you are waiting for me to say what I feed my own dogs? Purina Pro Plan. It's the top of the line food from the company that has done the most research, over the longest time frame.
So...that's my spiel I give my customers.
Probably more than you wanted to know.




Olympia said:


> I'm sorry if I started something negative! I really am just looking for info. I was wondering with Your Goldens if you find that the Golden community feeds certain brands more so than others?
> 
> Like alot of Sibe people feed Annamaet, Blueseal, and Redpaw then we go into a whole array of other kibbles that are fed, then you have the raw feeders......I've tried raw, but hubby was not thrilled with it, so now I do supplement the kibble with raw meaty bones!
> 
> ...


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Olympia said:


> I'm sorry if I started something negative! I really am just looking for info. I was wondering with Your Goldens if you find that the Golden community feeds certain brands more so than others?


It's definitely not your fault. People get passionate about food and it sometimes turns ugly. It's nothing you did.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

On the topic of food testing, sine hotel4dogs mentioned it, Purina was also responsible for that huge study on dog obesity that showed us exactly how much longer we can delay most geriatric diseases by keeping our dogs lean (almost 2 years!) and how much longer they live when they're kept lean (almost 2 years!). 

That study alone has done a lot to teach people how to care for their dogs better. Obviously, you don't have to feed Purina for that benefit, but that's the kind of research they're always doing.


----------



## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

Olympia said:


> my only concern was some of the ingredients looked kinda bad to me....


 
Which ingredients are you worried about? There is definately debate over the quality or healthiness of certain ingredients, and you may hear some quite different opinioins on the ingredients in question. According to the dogfoodanalysis website that you mentioned, my dog's food contains mostly bad ingredients. However, I disagree with them. 

As for starting negatives...its not your fault...all dog food threads seem to get people rialled up for some reason. People end up feeling insulted. The brand of food I feed my dog is often followed by :yuck: type faces and I've heard that I'm feeding my dog the equivalent of McDonalds everyday - I try not to take it personally. I don't know why these discussing ussually end badly, but I think everyone should feel free to voice their opinions.


----------



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

Kimm, my name is Anne! Olympia was my first Siberian husky's name.....

Hotel4dogs thank you for that info, and no it was not to much at all, I find it all very interesting as I did not know about all the research Purina has done!

Thanks to all for your replies!


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

*


Swampcollie said:



... Most would be shocked to learn that given a choice between the carefully selected all natural holistic diet and a road killed armadillo thats been laying in the Texas sun for half a day, their dogs would prefer the armadillo.

Click to expand...

**


tippykayak said:



Seriously. What my guys would order from takeout, given the choice, is rotten deer with a side of goose poop.

Click to expand...

*LOL
Must be their carnivorous instinct ...
But for all we know, Fido may be getting his armadillo after all

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/DOCKETS/dailys/04/aug04/081304/04n-0264-c00033-vol7.pdf

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/04/aug04/081304/04n-0264-c00034-vol7.pdf

http://tammi.tamu.edu/carcasscompostasae032263b.pdf





*


tippykayak said:



Healthwise contains Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (a form of B6) that causes neurotoxic effects in high doses.

Click to expand...

*


tippykayak said:


> *http://vet.sagepub.com/content/18/6/757.abstract[/QUOTE**]*
> 
> According to their website ...
> Healthwise does not contain Pyridoxine Hydrochloride
> ...


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

T&T said:


> According to their website ...
> Healthwise does not contain Pyridoxine Hydrochloride


It does, but it's listed under "vitamins."

http://www.healthwisepetfood.com/products/default.asp?id=543

It's a harmless and probably beneficial B6 precursor. I picked it out simply to make the point that all good dog foods typically contain supplements of vitamins in appropriate amounts, and that too much of a vitamin or pre-vitamin can be a bad thing, even though the vitamin is beneficial as a micronutrient.



T&T said:


> Real disappointing that you cannot question dog food ingredients on a dog forum


I don't recall anyone's having said that. The thing I took issue with was the claim that a vitamin supplement used in Purina foods caused cancer, which is an upsetting and untrue claim. I also took issue with the logic that because a substance is toxic in high doses, it must be toxic in low doses. That's it. Let's leave all the personal stuff behind and focus only on issues. There's no reason to derail this thread with hurt feelings once again.


----------



## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Olympia said:


> I was feeding Wellness for years, the dogs did well on that, but there was one issue that made me switch..


I would also like to know what the issue was, pm me if you wish, thanks.

To answer your original question, I think websites that give out stars to dog foods are biased one way or the other.

Tucker has been on Wellness super 5 mix for the past 5 weeks and is doing great on it. And yes, it has Pyridoxine Hydrochloride in it.

"It's a harmless and probably beneficial B6 precursor. I picked it out simply to make the point that all good dog foods typically contain supplements of vitamins in appropriate amounts, and that too much of a vitamin or pre-vitamin can be a bad thing, even though the vitamin is beneficial as a micronutrient."

Tippykayak, why could you not have said that when you first posted that link to the study? Some of use worry unnecessarily when we read such things. And I for one am sick of researching dog foods because there is always one study somewhere that will state I'm doing a disservice to my dog by feeding brand X. Makes me want to feed raw and be done with kibble.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> You didn't start it. It started a long time ago on other threads and just carried over here. People don't always play nice.
> Here at the pet hotel, a lot of people ask me advice about feeding their dogs because dog nutrition is kind of a special interest of mine and I have an entire library of books about it (not internet fad books, but rather vet school books, results from nutrition symposia, etc.) and yes I've read them all, including the AAFCO book.
> So here's my standard "speech" I give people when they ask me. I've said it so many times it's pretty much memorized:
> First, let me say that feeding your dogs is a very individual choice and what works well for one dog doesn't necessarily work for another one. What one person can afford isn't necessarily what another one can afford, and you should never be made to feel guilty for doing the best that you can do with the resources that you have.
> ...


 
Best post EVER. (And _not _just because she feeds Pro Plan, but _why _she's chosen to feed it.)

I've fed Pro Plan for years, and many dogs that come here to board/train have been switched to it with excellent results and remain on it to this day.
I always listen to people who say their dogs are "allergic" to grain/corns/ etc etc. Now, I've fed a _lot _of different dogs; Goldens from several different bloodlines, Pointers, Collies from several bloodlines, as well as caring for English Cockers, PWD's, Berners, Labs, Irish Setters, Frenchies, Poms (among others) and they've mostly all been fed Pro Plan. None of them have any of these allergies. It would seem that among that fairly large population, over so many years, that we'd see _something._ I just have a very difficult time buying into all the "__________" is bad for your dog and will cause____________" when we've never seen it. I personally am more inclined to believe that something else, probably thyroid disease, is at the root of it when there is a problem.


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Olympia said:


> I'm sorry if I started something negative! I really am just looking for info. I was wondering with Your Goldens if you find that the Golden community feeds certain brands more so than others?
> 
> Like alot of Sibe people feed Annamaet, Blueseal, and Redpaw then we go into a whole array of other kibbles that are fed, then you have the raw feeders......I've tried raw, but hubby was not thrilled with it, so now I do supplement the kibble with raw meaty bones!
> 
> ...


I hope your dogs continue to do well with the Annamaet. I found that the "adult" formulas of California Natural are somewhat low in fat (11%) for many dogs to maintain healthy coats. The California Natural "puppy" formulas with the 26% protein and 16% fat work better for many dogs. The puppy formulas are formulated as "all life stages" formulas and I know dogs of all ages eating and doing well with them. I also appreciate that they are very simple formulas in terms of type and length of ingredient lists.


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

sorry, double post


----------



## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> It does, but it's listed under "vitamins."
> http://www.healthwisepetfood.com/products/default.asp?id=543
> 
> Not sure if it has anything to do with PC vs natural occuring + PC supplemented. Don't know.
> ...


No derailment on my part
Just questions


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I, also, remember the hilarious Alpo commercials from The Tonight Show when I was a kid. That seemed to be the product most people brought home from the store for their dogs if they weren't feeding mostly table scraps.

I really appreciate that we as dog owners have so many options now. It is more of a challenge to be an informed consumer, but also satisfying to know that there are companies with tested kibbles, canned and dehydrated foods that offer varying nutrition options. Although not huge conglomerates with extensive advertising budgets, Champion Pet Foods (since 1975), Natura (1992) and Fromm Family Foods (1949) are a few examples of companies that have built solid track records with their own manufacuting plants and also have many satisfied customers.


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> You didn't start it. It started a long time ago on other threads and just carried over here. People don't always play nice.
> Here at the pet hotel, a lot of people ask me advice about feeding their dogs because dog nutrition is kind of a special interest of mine and I have an entire library of books about it (not internet fad books, but rather vet school books, results from nutrition symposia, etc.) and yes I've read them all, including the AAFCO book.
> So here's my standard "speech" I give people when they ask me. I've said it so many times it's pretty much memorized:
> First, let me say that feeding your dogs is a very individual choice and what works well for one dog doesn't necessarily work for another one. What one person can afford isn't necessarily what another one can afford, and you should never be made to feel guilty for doing the best that you can do with the resources that you have.
> ...


I have to chuckle. It just struck me that at one point in time Purina kibble was the new kid on the block and was looked at warily. There probably were lots of dog owners who decided to keep on feeding their dogs scraps from the family dinner until they got a comfort level with the company.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenCamper said:


> Tippykayak, why could you not have said that when you first posted that link to the study? Some of use worry unnecessarily when we read such things. And I for one am sick of researching dog foods because there is always one study somewhere that will state I'm doing a disservice to my dog by feeding brand X. Makes me want to feed raw and be done with kibble.


I'm really, really sorry. I meant to illustrate a point about the way we talk about dog food, and I went about it in completely the wrong way. It seemed insulting to some people and misleading to others.

Pyridoxine is a harmless B-vitamin precursor. Like many vitamins and pre-vitamins, it's beneficial to the body in micronutrient doses (which is why it's added to most dog foods), but potentially toxic in megadoses.

As far as raw feeding, there are just as many potential problems as with kibbles. There's no such thing as a superfood.


----------



## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I wanted to lighten the thread and hopefully get some people to laugh. I went to an all girls boarding school for high school, and many of the faculty had been there for years. My English teacher, and now a dear friend, always told the story of one of the Mars daughters time at the school. This girl rode horses (her family went on to donate an incredible multi-million dollar indoor arena, barn and conference room), and her father would often come and visit. He was seen one day outside of the stall of a very unattractive horse saying (in total gest, so don't think he was serious), "This one would make a great addition to the family business," Mars of course being a manufacturer of dog food...


----------



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

The artful dodger, in the ingredients list of the Annamaet Ultra:
*INGREDIENT LIST: *

Chicken Meal, Chicken, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)). Ground Corn, Fish Meal, Beet Pulp, Wheat Germ Meal, Whole Dry Eggs, Rolled Oats, Brewers Yeast, Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Lysine, Propionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Niacin, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menodione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin A Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3, Folic Acid, Potassium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Copper Oxide, Calcium Iodate.

I was worried about the ground corn, beet pulp, salt, then the things i can't pronounce, and have no idea what they are....like the sodium selenite for example!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Olympia said:


> The artful dodger, in the ingredients list of the Annamaet Ultra:
> *INGREDIENT LIST: *
> 
> Chicken Meal, Chicken, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)). Ground Corn, Fish Meal, Beet Pulp, Wheat Germ Meal, Whole Dry Eggs, Rolled Oats, Brewers Yeast, Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Lysine, Propionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Niacin, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menodione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin A Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3, Folic Acid, Potassium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Copper Oxide, Calcium Iodate.
> ...


There's no problem with corn in moderation, though it gets a bad rap sometimes on dog food websites.

Beet pulp is, according to many dog food companies, a good source of fiber, so it's pretty common. It also gets a bad rap, though I'm not clear why.

Sodium Selenite is Selenium, a mineral mammals need in small amounts. Most of the stuff at the end of the list is added vitamins and minerals.


----------



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

Golden camper, the reason I switched from Wellness after feeding it to all my dogs, and cats for 5 yrs is because I had an issue with the company after viewing this video, which I totally didn't believe till my hubby, and I actually checked the food! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB6K2BBd518

Now I will say that the bones had not been in every bag I bought otherwise I would have noticed it long before I did... but it happened to be in the bags I had at that time, due to that whole shipment of fish formulas from Wellness at the time had it, and I purchased 4 large bags. 

Anyway I tried running the food down my hand as the guy in the video did cuz I just didn't believe it, but it did cut my hand, and I was bleeding! I was very upset because my older cat had been screaming for quite sometime, and after numerous vet visits we could not figure it out till I found that, and brought it to their attention.

The vet said yes that it was very possible that it was the cause of her distress, now I wasn't to worried about the huskies, as the bones in their food didn't protrude as much, but I did find some pieces in theirs as well that could have caused a tare in their stomach, etc...

When I called the company to report the issue to them, the guy I spoke to was extremely condescending and rude....I decided to bring it to the attention of the food retailer, so they opened a new bag that they recently got in shipment, and nothing was in it. I gave them samples of the dogs food, and the cats food! He refunded my money, and told me to try the cali natural, and Innova, I also bought BF for the cats!

The guy from Wellness called me numerous times after my initial call, to try to send me coupons etc, I really think he thought I would go to the local news or something, I tried once more to explain that the reason I called was to alert them to the problem, and that I wasn't trying to start anything! He basically told me I was lying about the bones being in the food. I hung up, and he called the next day..... I told him to stop calling me as I would no longer be buying Wellness food! I also told him I was going to tell other people, so the next day he had a woman call me, and I told her I was done with them!

Sorry this is so long! 

Here are pics of the cat food I had:

























The dog food was similar, oh and had the guy not been a total tool, I would have probably stayed with Wellness, and just used the chicken formula!


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Olympia said:


> The artful dodger, in the ingredients list of the Annamaet Ultra:
> *INGREDIENT LIST: *
> 
> Chicken Meal, Chicken, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)). Ground Corn, Fish Meal, Beet Pulp, Wheat Germ Meal, Whole Dry Eggs, Rolled Oats, Brewers Yeast, Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Lysine, Propionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Niacin, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Menodione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin A Activity), Citric Acid, Vitamin D3, Folic Acid, Potassium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Copper Oxide, Calcium Iodate.
> ...


I believe that if a formula is going to contain corn, that this is a good format for it. It's ground corn (not corn gluten) and far enough down in the ingredient list that it's not being used as the primary source of protein. Not that corn doesn't provide protein - just not as efficiently as chicken. Beet pulp is often used in formulas to help manipulate solid stool production. Although you don't specifically mention it, I personally would check the accuracy with the company with the labeling of "Menodione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin A Activity)". To my knowledge, it is a source of Vitamin K activity and not Vitamin A. If it is Vitamin K3, you may find literature about it that is not always positive and will have to form your own opinions about it.


----------



## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

Olympia said:


> I was worried about the ground corn, beet pulp, salt, then the things i can't pronounce, and have no idea what they are....like the sodium selenite for example!


I spent a lot of time reading about ingredients when I first got Dodger. I don't really know much about what all the minerals etc are though. This is from the medi-cal website: 

*Beet Pulp*
This is an excellent source of fermentable and non-fermentable fibre which helps to promote normal bowel function, creating small firm stools. Beet pulp comes from sugar beets, not red beets. The myth that beet pulp turns a dog’s coat red is false, based on the incorrect assumption that beet pulp came from red beets. 
*Corn *
Corn is a highly digestible source of energy. Studies have shown that corn is rarely allergenic for pets. 
*Salt*
This nutrient is essential for all animals. In some diets, salt is supplied naturally from ingredients and does not need to be added to the diet. In other diets, salt must be added in order to meet the requirements of the pet. Salt levels can vary depending on the medical requirements of the individual. 

Those wellness video/pics are scary - I've never seen that before.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

As for food and coats, Shadow did horrible on Fish Formulas. His coat does go wild on CN Lamb and Rice, but once he is groomed he has a pretty nice coat! I just have to keep him away from the Fish formulas and get him groomed often. You would not believe how thick his coat gets.

Shadow doesn't or didn't have any thyroid issues when he was diagnosed with allergies. Yes, we did the blood test and I do know it's controversial, but it's help him avoid many of the issues he was having. 

Tucker has a nice coat. It's a bit wavy so I'm not sure it will shine much. The parts that are straight shine just fine! He's on EPH, but I'm switching him soon due to regurgitation. I'm just waiting to finish the bag.


----------



## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Olympia, thanks for the response and pic's, that's scary stuff! Tucker is on the chicken one. When checking his stool I have noticed tiny white pieces so I just took a careful look at the food and sure enough there are tiny white pieces in it, nothing like the bones in your pic's though. I have no idea what those white specks are, whether bone or grain, but its enough to make me think about looking into another dog food for Tucker, sigh... 

It's not an over-reaction to the videos btw, mostly frustration.


----------



## Olympia (Jan 11, 2010)

Golden camper, I feel the same way! The dog food thing is very frustrating to me, and when I had everyone on Wellness, and things were going like clock work, I didn't give it another thought...till I saw that. It makes me sad that a company would be so rude, and defensive when told that there may be an issue with their food~


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Olympia said:


> Golden camper, I feel the same way! The dog food thing is very frustrating to me, and when I had everyone on Wellness, and things were going like clock work, I didn't give it another thought...till I saw that. It makes me sad that a company would be so rude, and defensive when told that there may be an issue with their food~


 
Wellness and Eagle Pack were sold and put under the WellPet name. Many of the products are now manufactured by Diamond. :no::no:


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Truly tiny bits of bone are a good thing. "Meal" in an ingredient list (chicken meal, etc.) can and should include bone. The problem happens when the bits are big and/or sharp.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> I believe that if a formula is going to contain corn, that this is a good format for it. It's ground corn (not corn gluten) and far enough down in the ingredient list that it's not being used as the primary source of protein. Not that corn doesn't provide protein - just not as efficiently as chicken. Beet pulp is often used in formulas to help manipulate solid stool production. Although you don't specifically mention it, I personally would check the accuracy with the company with the labeling of "Menodione Dimethylpyrimidinol Bisulfate (Source of Vitamin A Activity)". To my knowledge, it is a source of Vitamin K activity and not Vitamin A. If it is Vitamin K3, you may find literature about it that is not always positive and will have to form your own opinions about it.


You're right. It's _really_ weird to see a company call Menadione a Vitamin A precursor, and even weirder to see them misspell it. It doesn't instill a lot of confidence.


----------



## Slew Foot (Dec 7, 2009)

I feed Orijen to my 70 pound 2-year old boy. I put out about 3-4 cups in the morning and he just grazes throughout the day, and sometimes it takes him 2 days to finish it up. Probally the biggest difference I notice is with the teeth. Stuff with alot of starch (grain/meal) builds up on the his teeth whereas Orijen doesn't. Of course, he cleans plates and gets scraps too!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

cleaning plates and getting scraps is why it takes his 2 days to finish his regular food!




Slew Foot said:


> I feed Orijen to my 70 pound 2-year old boy. I put out about 3-4 cups in the morning and he just grazes throughout the day, and sometimes it takes him 2 days to finish it up. Probally the biggest difference I notice is with the teeth. Stuff with alot of starch (grain/meal) builds up on the his teeth whereas Orijen doesn't. Of course, he cleans plates and gets scraps too!


----------



## kaysy (Jan 9, 2010)

I haven't read through all the posts, but from what I saw the youtube was from 11/08. Is that correct? Marty eats Wellness.


----------



## Stircrazy (Nov 30, 2009)

Olympia said:


> How many stars do you shoot for on the dry foods?


All 6, as long as they do good on it. I am feeding Orijen regional red and my boy does fantastic on it.

I figure with the money I spent to buy him, get his shots, toys, ect.. why scrimp on the bigest influence in his health I can give him.

Steve


----------



## wabmorgan (May 6, 2008)

cola3812 said:


> I am one of those that bought into this website and changed my puppy from Eukanuba to Orijen LBP with horrible side effects. On Eukanuba my puppy had firm stools but was going frequently. I decided to try Orijen (6 star food from their website) and my poor puppy suffered horrible gas, and loose, mushy, runny stools. I gave it a full month and a half and it never got better. Needless to say, I have him back on Eukanuba and his stools have firmed up again and the gas is gone.


Junior use to get some dark wax in his ears and had a slight itching problem while on Eukanuba. He also would strain to poop. IMO... Eukanuba results in stools that are too firm. 

At first his stools on Orijen were too loose but improved to a good stool within about a month. His ears also cleared up.... no more dark wax gunk... and his itching went away completly. 




Ranger said:


> My guy is on Orijen fish - 6 stars, i think. He's on the fish formula since I thought he had allergies the first month I had him so we made the change from Iams to Orijen.
> 
> He was okay on Iams - coat was fairly shiny, normal poops, ate about 4 cups a day and stayed a good weight. He is THRIVING on the orijen though. His coat is gleaming, he has more energy (we can play fetch for more than 15 mins without him wanting to go lay down) and no more "mental shut-downs" on walks/obedience sessions over 30 mins ago. I only feed him 2 cups of the Orijen and he still gets a little plump if we don't go for an hour walk a day.
> 
> It did take a long time to transition him to it. About 6-8 weeks of mixing with the Iams before he could handle just the Orijen. I think the transition is harder for dogs when they go from a by-filler food to a protein rich food and it should take a little more time. My dog can switch now from Orijen to Acana to Go! and he has no dietary upsets at all. Just like I'm sure dogs can switch from Iams to Purina to whatever and they won't have as hard a time as if they'd been switched to a protein rich food.


I have people all the time to tell me JR has the shiniest coat they have ever seen. He also has a TON of ENGERY!!!!!!!!!!! 

Go ORIJEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------

