# Spots for Structure



## K9-Design

Okay, me first!!!
Here are the rules. 
1. Must put the spots on the actual dog, not on a photo of the dog. 
2. Dog standing relatively naturally.
3. Spots go here...and FEEL for them, don't guess or approximate:
--a. Tip of shoulder blade
--b. Point of shoulder (where shoulder meets upper arm)
--c. Elbow
--d. For kicks I did the last rib so we can see length of loin
--e. Point of hip
--f. Point of buttock
--g. Knee
--h. Hock
4. No making fun of my very ungroomed dogs, or very ungroomed garage.
5. Nobody take it personal when your dogs are evaluated.

#1 Fisher 7.5 yr old male









#2 Blade 3.5 yr old male









#3 Slater 15 month old male









And for kicks I extracted just the points and overlaid them on each other, resizing so they are all equal in length and aligning point of shoulder & buttock. It turned out less interesting than I thought, but here ya go.


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## sterregold

I'll play too! Excuse the crazy after-water-training coats on the boys! And the no-coatedness of the girl!!!

#1 Winter 6.5y.o. male









#2 Butch 20 month old male









#3 Breeze 4 y.o. female









Not sure how to do the overlay thing that you did Anney!


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## K9-Design

Hi Shelly, thanks for posting! Now this is cool 
So here are my thoughts.
---Of my 3 guys Fisher has best shoulder layback. 
---All 3 of my guys have good return of upper arm. 
---Blade has what appears to be a shorter shoulder blade.
---Looking all 3 by front angles ONLY -- you'd assume Fisher has the best movement in front. He does from the side but moves VERY wide coming at you. Blade has picture perfect convergence....he also has a lot more prosternum than F or S.
---Blade definitely longer in loin than F & S.
---Pelvis angle of Fisher & Slater nearly identical although looking at the TOPLINES Fisher looks much more flat.
---Fisher & Slater are long through the stifle (tibia/fibula)....that makes for a fast thoroughbred so I guess it's good!

On Shelly's guys here are my impressions.
---Wonderful shoulder layback on Winter but short upper arm and thus not as much return as I'd like to see. However front assembly is set well back on his rib cage which is excellent.
---Winter more sloping pelvis which when I saw him in real life that was something I noticed.
---Butch shorter shoulder blade than upper arm
---Butch very short loin and flat pelvis angle which makes for awesome topline, correct for a dog
---Compare length from the stifle to hock in Butch to either Fisher or Slater...(compared to the length from hip to stifle). Quite a difference! Don't know what this means, just different conformation. Butch is proportionally longer in the thigh.
---Breeze is much longer in the loin than any of the boys but this is to be expected in a bitch. I wouldn't say she looks long in body though. Shelly what do you think of her length of loin "in real life"?
---I like Butch's outline very much and of the 3 dogs Shelly posted I would consider him to have the best type in silhouette.


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## sameli102

*Parker*

I wasn't trying to get fancy, it is just that my grooming table is normally butted up against an unfinished framed wall and I had shampoo bottles and grooming tools that would have been very distracting so I slide the table out into the studio.

Anyway, I marked as best I know how, I was a little uncertain about the shoulder joint and what exact part is considered the actual tip of shoulder blade...I think I may be a little too forward but not sure.
I posted 2 shots because of how he was holding his head.
Parker is 15 months

This was a very interesting exercise, it is fun to be able to just sit back and observe him frozen without bouncing around!


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## sterregold

K9-Design said:


> Hi Shelly, thanks for posting! Now this is cool
> So here are my thoughts.
> ---Of my 3 guys Fisher has best shoulder layback.
> ---All 3 of my guys have good return of upper arm.
> ---Blade has what appears to be a shorter shoulder blade.
> ---Looking all 3 by front angles ONLY -- you'd assume Fisher has the best movement in front. He does from the side but moves VERY wide coming at you. Blade has picture perfect convergence....he also has a lot more prosternum than F or S.
> ---Blade definitely longer in loin than F & S.
> ---Pelvis angle of Fisher & Slater nearly identical although looking at the TOPLINES Fisher looks much more flat.
> ---Fisher & Slater are long through the stifle (tibia/fibula)....that makes for a fast thoroughbred so I guess it's good!
> 
> On Shelly's guys here are my impressions.
> ---Wonderful shoulder layback on Winter but short upper arm and thus not as much return as I'd like to see. However front assembly is set well back on his rib cage which is excellent.
> ---Winter more sloping pelvis which when I saw him in real life that was something I noticed.
> ---Butch shorter shoulder blade than upper arm
> ---Butch very short loin and flat pelvis angle which makes for awesome topline, correct for a dog
> ---Compare length from the stifle to hock in Butch to either Fisher or Slater...(compared to the length from hip to stifle). Quite a difference! Don't know what this means, just different conformation. Butch is proportionally longer in the thigh.
> ---Breeze is much longer in the loin than any of the boys but this is to be expected in a bitch. I wouldn't say she looks long in body though. Shelly what do you think of her length of loin "in real life"?
> ---I like Butch's outline very much and of the 3 dogs Shelly posted I would consider him to have the best type in silhouette.


Of my three, Winter has the best movement, and the most power from the rear. In the water however, Breeze and Butch are both much more powerful, faster swimmers. I think Win's rear and shoulder layback serve him on land, but the shorter upper arm slows him down in the water. In rear, I think Butch's longer thigh makes his rear movement not as strong--but that is also something that is improving as he grows up and puts on more muscle mass. I think his flatter pelvis is necessary here--if he had the slope that Win has he would interfere with himself. So on static outline, Butch creates a very nice picture, very much the old-fashioned Golden, though without maturity! Moving, however, I would say Win is better.
Breeze is longest in loin, but I don't think excessively so--she is strong and muscular through the loin. Out of coat as she is now it is apparent that her actual proportions are quite good, but when she has more underfurnishings it can create the illusion that she is short on leg.

As a PS--When they had their CCA's done, Breeze scored higher overall than Winter did. It will be interesting to see how Butch scores when I eventually take him to one.


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## hotel4dogs

does magic marker come back off their coats?
I will try to do this. Looks cool!


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## IowaGold

I'm not sure I put the tape exactly right, but anyway, here are my dirty, ungroomed, field dogs...

Ruby, 6 year old spayed bitch (spayed at 12 months)











Piper, 13 month old spayed bitch (spayed at 11 months), has elbow dysplasia


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## GoldenSail

What a neat thread! I can see things so much better. Since I am novice take my thought with a grain of salt but this is what I saw.

K9Design
--Fisher looks to have the the best shoulder layback--nice!
--Blade looks straighter in the stifle (I think that is what it is called).
I am curious as to why you think Fisher's front movement is wide. Is his chest a little wide?

Sterregold
--Winter has a shorter upper arm, but is nicely balanced (the best of all three)
--I can appreciate Butch's short loin 

Sameli
--Looks more angulated in the front than back
--nice short loin

Am I right? 

I am out of town right now, but I can't wait to post pictures of Scout in a few days....


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## K9-Design

GoldenSail said:


> What a neat thread! I can see things so much better. Since I am novice take my thought with a grain of salt but this is what I saw.
> 
> K9Design
> --Fisher looks to have the the best shoulder layback--nice!
> --Blade looks straighter in the stifle (I think that is what it is called).
> I am curious as to why you think Fisher's front movement is wide. Is his chest a little wide?


Yes Blade is straighter in the rear than my other guys. He is not structurally perfect but moves VERY VERY nicely. Almost cannot be faulted in movement. This is because he is very balanced front & rear (not significantly more angulated in the rear than the front, which is how most goldens are) and has a slightly longer loin. The longer loin allows for more clearance under the body so the incoming front and rear legs do not interfere with each other, there is a real freedom of movement. 
In a dog like Fisher who is much more angulated than Blade both front and rear, yet much shorter in the loin...while that is "better" from a type standpoint it is not better from a structure/movement standpoint. Why does he move wide in front? Who knows. One theory I have is that it's a compensatory motion that keeps his back feet from hitting his front feet as they converge under his body. Most dogs crab (move slightly sideways) to avoid this but perhaps he just moves the front legs out laterally to accomplish the same thing? Fisher does NOT have ample forechest (prosternum) and I have had people tell me that is the reason....lack of anchoring for the muscles that pull the front legs forward leads to restricted movement and thus he doesn't complete the full range of motion? But he has very nice reach when viewed from the side so I don't know about that. What is curious is that if Fisher is tired, say, after a game of fetch, his front movement is beautiful and he converges perfectly. Now figure that one out. 



> Sameli
> --Looks more angulated in the front than back
> --nice short loin


Actually of all the dogs I think Parker is the most balanced looking front to rear. Picture the angle made by his shoulder and upper arm and compare it to the angle made by his femur and tibia/fibula...those angles are nearly identical. THAT IS GOOD. Of the dogs pictured so far I think he is the most balanced in this respect. Parker is a very handsome guy and I really like him. Also nice to see he has about the same amount of coat as Slater, they are the same age. When is his birthday?


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## GoldenSail

K9-Design said:


> Actually of all the dogs I think Parker is the most balanced looking front to rear. Picture the angle made by his shoulder and upper arm and compare it to the angle made by his femur and tibia/fibula...those angles are nearly identical. THAT IS GOOD. Of the dogs pictured so far I think he is the most balanced in this respect. Parker is a very handsome guy and I really like him. Also nice to see he has about the same amount of coat as Slater, they are the same age. When is his birthday?


Ok, maybe it is because his back angle curve around his side and the front is more flat (for the photo that is) that the angle looks more open to me...But thanks for calling me on it


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## sameli102

K9-Design said:


> When is his birthday?


Parker's birthday is 5/22/09. I do not have enough confirmation knowledge to join in on the comments, believe me I'd really make a fool of myself! But I wanted to join in on the exercise to learn more about front and rear assemblies and how to see angles better so when I go to a show I can have a better idea what makes a great dog. 

Also, I am not at all sensitive to his shortcomings as I did not get him for show purposes, in fact he was the last pick, so feel free to be critical and use him as an example of what could be improved. It will help me know more what to look for whenever I get my next one.


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## GoldenSail

IowaGold said:


> I'm not sure I put the tape exactly right, but anyway, here are my dirty, ungroomed, field dogs...


Just wanted to say I am not ignoring your post, but I am not sure that the tape is in the best spot. I also think it would be better if you took a pic of them standing on the ground, looking up or straight and more natural--they look a little uncomfortable on the table which doesn't help.


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## IowaGold

GoldenSail said:


> Just wanted to say I am not ignoring your post, but I am not sure that the tape is in the best spot. I also think it would be better if you took a pic of them standing on the ground, looking up or straight and more natural--they look a little uncomfortable on the table which doesn't help.


Yah they weren't thrilled, but DH wasn't home to hold them! I'm not all that good with knowing exactly where to put the tape either. Just thought I'd throw some non-conformation bred dogs in there.


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## GoldenSail

Ok, I snapped some of Scout let me know what you guys think...she is 16.5 months old right now. (Be honest, won't hurt my feelings)



















I am not sure if I got the dot on the thigh in the correct spot as there were two notable bone bumps there.

EDIT: Would be interested to hear if you guys think she is long in the loin and/or long in the body.


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## hotel4dogs

Lisa, check the tape marking her shoulder. Bend her head down and find the tip of the shoulder bone.
If you've got it in the right place, she's VERY straight in the front. 
I will try to get Tito's today, just been stupidly busy. Would love to hear comments on him.


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## Maxs Mom

This is COOL!!!! I need to read it very carefully and learn. I may do Teddi for kicks, her structure it not as good but as a learning tool. 

Anney, the first thing I see when I looked at Fishers pic with the spots, his "triangle" in his shoulder is almost the same as his back end. The back end look inverted of his shoulder. To me that says BALANCE! Maybe I am wrong but it is my naive impression. 

I can see conformation in horses. And Barb has helped me a lot try to understand dogs. This is a great idea! I hope a lot of dogs show up. 

Ann


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## GoldenSail

Thanks Barb--I tried again. I think the spot may have migrated a little from moving around so I tried to not let her do that this time around.


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## esSJay

Hm. Very interesting and I'm learning a lot from this thread already. Thanks for starting it, Anney! I'm not home tonight but maybe tomorrow I will try to do this with Molson! It will be interesting and helpful for me since we may be starting him in the ring early in 2011!


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## Ljilly28

I'm excited to buy some tape on my way home tonight, so I can try this. 

My 8 month old pup (totally ungroomed/ trimmed/with collar)has the opposite issue from Fisher in the front. While he has tons of prosternum, his upper arm is too straight, and he needs more neck. He has a pretty bend of stifle and nice rear angle, but he is looking long in his hocks( though he didn't at 8 weeks). I can't wait to do the dots, and see if I can learn more.









My 3 year old dog Tally is a solid citizen. The dots will be interesting for me, and the feedback too. While his bend of stifle isnt as nice as Copley's, he has a little bit better upper arm and neck into shoulders.


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## MillysMom

This is an incredible thread, and there is so much to learn. I might attempt to do Milly, but I'll probably mess up with putting the tape on correctly. I can't pin point her flaws, but there is something I dislike about her hind end, and something I don't like about her shoulder and her top line. I can't figure out what exactly it is I don't like, so it would be fun to have some feedback on her flaws. I'll pick up some tape on the way home today.


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## damita

On my way to take pics of dots after my dog club meeting tonight!!!


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## rappwizard

I LOVE this thread! I'm going to post dots photo this week--I have painter's tape and the grooming table is up and outside--it's been crazy busy with work but I am eager to connect the dots too! Erik Strickland had us do a version on the demo dog at his grooming seminar with painter's tape and actually do the lines--it was interesting in that some people had difficulty locating the points to place the tape end to end--that can make so much of a difference.


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## Megora

I've been somewhat curious about my guy who seems balanced when he's outside and airsniffing or staring at something, but other times (like when I'm trying to take pictures of him) it doesn't look right, or his neck looks too short or his front legs look too short. 

I'll just throw him in there as comparision fun here... 

He's not a conformation dog by any stretch of the imagination, though he will be a show dog (obedience) in a month or so. :

I forgot to put a sticky at the point of his buttocks and his last rib. At least with the buttocks I put a blue dot where it should have gone. The tape by the point of his shoulder slipped when he was wiggling. It should be a smidgeon higher where I put the blue dot.

- Please excuse the bird cage mess behind him.


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## hotel4dogs

Oh yes, MUCH better!!! The way you had it marked her shoulder was almost upright!




GoldenSail said:


> Thanks Barb--I tried again. I think the spot may have migrated a little from moving around so I tried to not let her do that this time around.


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## hotel4dogs

ok, set up grooming table, cut little red dots....and now camera isn't working!!!!
ARGH!!!!
I'm going to try charging it, but I don't think that's the problem. Stupid thing isn't very old, either.
GRRRR...........


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## hotel4dogs

ok, the usual caveats and exclusions apply.....we haven't shown for a couple of months, so he's not groomed. Not even combed!!
dot (f), the point of the buttock, is about 1/2 to 1 inch too low. His fur must have moved after I put the dot on. But it's pretty close.
I would love some REALLY HONEST opinions on the monster boy.


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## GoldenSail

Megora--looks like a nice shoulder layback, croup looks a little steep

Barb
--He looks like he has a really steep croup, unless the dots are off or it is due to his back legs being under him
--Of course, I like the shorter loin


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## hotel4dogs

His back legs are about 4 inches forward of where they belong. Guess I should have stacked him!!! (the table is too small for him)




GoldenSail said:


> Megora--looks like a nice shoulder layback, croup looks a little steep
> 
> Barb
> --He looks like he has a really steep croup, unless the dots are off or it is due to his back legs being under him
> --Of course, I like the shorter loin


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## Megora

GoldenSail said:


> Megora--looks like a nice shoulder layback, croup looks a little steep


Thanks<:

The steep croup (line from his hip to his buttocks) would explain why he has a low tail set.


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## hollyk

Holy Moly, I'm starting to see the angles that everyone talks about. Great Thread.


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## hotel4dogs

I'm not expert (waiting for others to comment here....) but I don't think his croup is steep, and at least in the photo, his tail set looks correct, not low. 

Also want to comment on how these photos show how important it is to properly stack your dog in the show ring!!! If you look at Tito's photo, his back feet are about 4 inches too far forward. The very front of his rear toes should be directly under the red dot that marks the butt bone. Because he's not standing right, it causes his croup to appear steep (which in person it isn't at all), and his back to appear slightly roached, which again, in person, it isn't. A dog presented like that in the ring isn't a "winner" at all, compared to a dog that is presented correctly.





Megora said:


> Thanks<:
> 
> The steep croup (line from his hip to his buttocks) would explain why he has a low tail set.


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## esSJay

Ok it's Molson's turn!  I'm very interested to hear feedback on him - both positive and negative.

Nobody's home to help me hold him or take the picture so I had to follow him around the backyard waiting for him to freestack himself so I could snag a picture. :doh: I attached 2 as one does a better job showing off the front and the other shows off the back a little better.

I think I got all the spots on the right places, except some may be a bit hard to see since the first thing he did was roll in the grass when he got out there. I repositioned most of them but obviously forgot the one on the rib. You can still see where the fur is out of position there - that's where the tape should be. The one on his knee can be seen in the first picture and in the second picture you can just see a little white point sticking out, which is the tape.

Let's hear it!


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## hotel4dogs

I was thinking maybe the photo of Tito left everyone speechless (not sure good or bad, LOL), since no one is commenting.....
Molson has a really nice shoulder lay-back. So good to see, we're seeing so many upright shoulders in the breed lately. Other than that, you need to wait for someone who knows a lot more than I do to comment!


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## Ljilly28

When I look at Tito's photo, the first thing I like about him is his overall balance, with a nice short-coupled body and a level topline. He is very moderate, especially for his line. He has enough bone to be satisfying, but not too much to work out in those fields. He has a better front assembly than most goldens, and I really like his front so much. I do think he's scooting his butt underneath him in the photo bc of the grooming table, so his tale is unusually tucked under and it is hard to see the length of his hocks. I think Tito could use more feathers/coat, but that is just quibbling . Beautiful dog!


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## Megora

> Also want to comment on how these photos show how important it is to properly stack your dog in the show ring!!! If you look at Tito's photo, his back feet are about 4 inches too far forward. The very front of his rear toes should be directly under the red dot that marks the butt bone. Because he's not standing right, it causes his croup to appear steep (which in person it isn't at all), and his back to appear slightly roached, which again, in person, it isn't. A dog presented like that in the ring isn't a "winner" at all, compared to a dog that is presented correctly.


*and now I know how to stack properly* I've always wondered where to put front feet and back feet if I wanted to pose my guy. Thanks to the dots and the advice above, now I know. 

With Jacks - I just put him in a stand stay, put a toy up on the bookcase to get his head up, and went to the side to take his picture. <- I've seen people placing feet in class, but I've never actually knew what was too far forward or too far back. 

I'm horrible at judging structure and don't actually know the difference between a good shoulder layback and a bad one, or what 'short coupled' means (a golden judge said my previous golden was 'short coupled' and I always wondered if that was a BAD thing)... :

1. Tito - I mainly noticed how cramped he looked on the table. I did think his back legs needed to be further back. 

2. Molsen - is adorable. You can tell he's a young dog, but I think he's got a nice overall shape (my untrained eyes). He has a beautiful head.


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## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> I was thinking maybe the photo of Tito left everyone speechless (not sure good or bad, LOL), since no one is commenting.....


Actually, no one has commented past Parker on the first page...


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## GoldenSail

Ok, this is what I think of my dog and have been told.

She has beautiful neck into shoulder, shoulder layback and an excellent topline which doesn't come through in the pictures. Ear is a little long. She is balanced and has a moderate amount of bone--overall she is a moderate bitch. Lacks maturity right now--needs rib spring, coat, and fill. She appears long in the body, but the last show I took her to she was comparable to the other bitches just lacked the coat, fill, and rib spring which I think may make her look longer than she is. (Perhaps I need to get a tape measure and physically measure length to height). I believe she is probably long in the loin, but was curious to hear that a longer loin (to some extent anyway) is expected in bitches. Is that for puppies?

She may be a little long in hock--but I am not sure. I know the standard says 'well let-down hocks' but I am not sure what proportion to put on this. 1/3 of the leg?


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## hotel4dogs

here's what I've been told about Tito....(this is a compilation of many opinions of course!)
He's a moderate, totally balanced dog. More of the "old style or old fashioned" golden retriever. Great front end, excellent shoulder layback, nice head and expression. Ribs very well sprung, dog is in hard working condition and very athletic. Hocks well let down, more correct than what you usually see lately. Perfectly proportioned in height/length. Nice short loin. Excellent topline which holds together beautifully in motion (from one of the judges that gave him a major). My favorite...."you just can't pick this dog apart. usually you can say the dog is nice EXCEPT for this or that, but he really can't be picked apart that way" (this from another judge). Coat is not abundant but what is there is correct in texture and thickness.
Could use more angles in the back legs. Could use more furnishings. Would like a little more length of coat over the body. Could be more prominent in the prosternum (sp?). Face too soft and kindly (no kidding, a judge told me that). 
Jill, I also wish he had more coat, well, except when we're in the field, then I'm glad he doesn't


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## hotel4dogs

I never thought the Faera dogs were heavy boned when they were really popular in the rings. Here's a photo of Star, and one of Tito. I do think they've gotten more substantial recently. Obviously the one of Tito is a candid shot, but they're pretty similar in bone.
I actually had someone who knows the Faera line pretty well say to me at a show, "wow! looks like Star without hair"
SHEESH.






Ljilly28 said:


> When I look at Tito's photo, the first thing I like about him is his overall balance, with a nice short-coupled body and a level topline. He is very moderate, especially for his line. He has enough bone to be satisfying, but not too much to work out in those fields. He has a better front assembly than most goldens, and I really like his front so much. I do think he's scooting his butt underneath him in the photo bc of the grooming table, so his tale is unusually tucked under and it is hard to see the length of his hocks. I think Tito could use more feathers/coat, but that is just quibbling . Beautiful dog!


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## hotel4dogs

I haven't commented much because I don't feel qualified to do so....

Another thing I want to point out in general, though, to people who are even newer than I am to this (hard to imagine) is that we all have our particular things which we put more weight on. For example, body length is more important to me than how let down the hock is. Well, judges are the same. Each one has certain things that they consider crucial, and other things that they don't consider all that important. They have likes and dislikes, too.

So you can save yourself a lot of money and aggravation if you research the judges and don't show to a judge that doesn't like something about your dog. I could never show Tito to judges who like substantial dogs with long, flowing coats.





GoldenSail said:


> Actually, no one has commented past Parker on the first page...


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## sameli102

I'm finding it hard to scroll back and forth so I hope no one minds but I included all dogs thus far into one post to make it easier to see them...


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## esSJay

hotel4dogs said:


> I never thought the Faera dogs were heavy boned when they were really popular in the rings. Here's a photo of Star, and one of Tito. I do think they've gotten more substantial recently. Obviously the one of Tito is a candid shot, but they're pretty similar in bone.
> I actually had someone who knows the Faera line pretty well say to me at a show, "wow! looks like Star without hair"
> SHEESH.


 
I've always seen a lot of Molson in the pictures you've posted of Tito, but I never looked up his pedigree until now - no wonder the similarities I'm seeing, as Molson is also a Star grandson! His dad is also a Faera boy.

I wish I knew more about lines/angles and terminology for conformation for me to comment but I don't yet, so I'm keeping quiet and learning.


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## sameli102

hotel4dogs said:


> I haven't commented much because I don't feel qualified to do so....


I don't either, but I enjoy reading what those that do know more have to say, great way to start learning.

I bought Parker strictly as a pet but I find something very special about him in how he carries himself. To me he moves beautiful in comparison to all my goldens I have had before him. He has a lot of sparkle in his attitude, of course that's the same attitude that makes him quite a handful. I am just interested in learning more about what makes one dog look so different than another of the same breed.


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## GoldenSail

And I just measured Scout--21.5" height, 24.5" length (breastbone to pinbone). This makes her slightly longer than ideal but I would say not too far off. It translates into roughly 11:12.5 proportions.


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## hotel4dogs

Nah, you're just busy planning how to spend your winnings !:



esSJay said:


> I wish I knew more about lines/angles and terminology for conformation for me to comment but I don't yet, so I'm keeping quiet and learning.


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## sameli102

And while I can't really contribute to the comments on the dogs I do have what are probably stupid questions but hopefully others can explain or even show me a good example.....

*Balance*-is that taking into consideration just the front and rear angles? or is it the overall appearance of the dog? If a dog has a long loin, or great front and rear but a short neck or lack of prosternum can they still be balanced?

*Prosternum*--is there such thing as too much?

What does it mean when you say upper arm & neck into shoulders? Well let down hock, stands well under himself?


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## HiTideGoldens

I'm reading and learning too - not commenting because I don't feel qualified! Hoping to post pictures of Jack this weekend. I haven't had a chance to get him up on the table since Saturday. Maybe tonight.

I actually thought when I saw Scout's picture, "hmmm...she doesn't look as long as I thought she would". I tried to picture her with more coat and even that would make her look less long. 

To follow on sameli's question about "neck into shoulders"...I'm not sure what that means either. Is it that you want a smooth transition and not a harsh stop between the beck and shoulders?


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## vixen

I realy found this useful as I currently reading a judging book on gundog, and seeing the angle for real has realy helped, I may try and get a pic of Max, but he never stands well.


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## rappwizard

I took pictures of Mac today but she was turning to look at me even though I had a pile of her favorite toys on the chair; I think a few photos may have turned out so I'm going to have my husband show me how to upload from the camera--and then I'll post and add my 2 cents! This is a great thread!


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## diana_D

sameli102 said:


> And while I can't really contribute to the comments on the dogs I do have what are probably stupid questions but hopefully others can explain or even show me a good example.....
> 
> *Balance*-is that taking into consideration just the front and rear angles? or is it the overall appearance of the dog? If a dog has a long loin, or great front and rear but a short neck or lack of prosternum can they still be balanced?
> 
> *Prosternum*--is there such thing as too much?
> 
> What does it mean when you say upper arm & neck into shoulders? Well let down hock, stands well under himself?


Balance = when front matched the hind. Even if the front is not well angulated, if it matched the hind then the dog will still be in balance and move better than a dog with terrible front and an overangulated hind or viceversa. 

Prosternum: I don't think so, but it is not always a good indication of a great front  

well let down hock = requirement of the standard, hocks should be low, not high. 

I hope reading this might help:
http://www.garbanklislone.co.uk/id185.htm
They are top breeders and judges


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## GoldenSail

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I actually thought when I saw Scout's picture, "hmmm...she doesn't look as long as I thought she would". I tried to picture her with more coat and even that would make her look less long.


Aw really? She looks long in body to me, but I always wonder how much of that is lack of maturity and coat at this point. Like I said, when i compared her length and height to the other bitches at the dog show she seemed just about the same...but I can't stop myself from asking everyone I come across if she looks long in body! :doh:


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## HiTideGoldens

GoldenSail said:


> Aw really? She looks long in body to me, but I always wonder how much of that is lack of maturity and coat at this point. Like I said, when i compared her length and height to the other bitches at the dog show she seemed just about the same...but I can't stop myself from asking everyone I come across if she looks long in body! :doh:


I think you're probably just hyper aware of it. I had seen your recent photos of her on the facebook GR discussion group and thought the same thing then. (I never feel qualified to say anything on there either though! LOL) I think I was expecting her to have grown in to a weiner dog looking golden or something! LOL Once you point it out to someone they'll probably say "well, she could be a bit shorter loined" but I've found that many people focus on the positive rather than the negative. Plus, I was just reading the Dogsteps book this morning (to brush up on my anatomy lingo) and it sounds like a too short loin is worse in the way it effects movement, right? (I think?) So while neither is ideal, you'd rather have a dog's loin be a little too long rather than a little to short? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

FWIW, I'm hyper aware of Jack's stop (or lack thereof) so I understand your focus. He needs just a bit more (it's actually improving as he grows) and I'm always fluffing it up with the blowdryer to make it look like he has the amount I want. But generally it's not something people notice on him when they see him. You guys will have to let me know when I post his photos


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## HiTideGoldens

I'm a bit late to the party on posting my picture, but here it is! I had Jack's sire's owner/breeder critique him yesterday. What she said is he has a nice shoulder layback, nice head (which was a surprise to me! unfortunately my picture cut off the top of it), very nice front and nice rear. She likes his ear set and size of ear and also liked his feet (although he does have one slightly wonky nail.) If she could change something about him structurally, she would want his hocks to be about 1/4 inch shorter, his eyes a bit larger and he could use a bit more stop. I think he could use a bit more leg and a bit more stop. I also think his muzzle is a hair longer than I like, but she said she didn't think it was long. I'm curious to know all your thoughts! 

He's not stacked well at all, but getting him to not stare at me while I took this was a feat in and of itself. Just to the left of the photo is his favorite ball taped to our BBQ!


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## Megora

And this is why I'm not a judge.... 

I think his hocks look fine. 

His nose might look a little longer if the stop isn't as defined as it should be... <- And I don't think Jack is so bad. He does have a nice looking head for such a young dog. At 10mos, my Jacks still had the immature head thing going on with too long ears (he has since grown into them).


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## hotel4dogs

I don't think it's really fair to assess a 10 month old from a structural point of view.....but he's really handsome


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## HiTideGoldens

I know he's still a baby, but he is being shown every other month right now, so it's still good to hear where his strengths and and weaknesses are - even if they change next week. 

She said she was just being nitpicky with the hocks but I was asking about everything on him to get a good critique. Plus she's showing him this weekend for us, so I wanted to see if there was anything we needed to worry about with grooming. She did warn me not to focus on the components of the dog and instead focus on the whole dog.


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## hotel4dogs

yes, judges are not supposed to "fault" judge. They are supposed to look at the entire dog instead.
What you hear from the spectators ringside is usually fault judging.


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## GoldenSail

Goldenjack are you sure that the tape for the hip is in the right spot? The way the tape is it looks like he has a flat croup and narrow angle, but I am guessing that is not true...


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## hotel4dogs

I was reasonably sure the tape was in the wrong spot, too. Also his feet, both front and rear, aren't positioned very well (I know it was supposed to be the dog standing casually) so it's really hard to make any comments at all.




GoldenSail said:


> Goldenjack are you sure that the tape for the hip is in the right spot? The way the tape is it looks like he has a flat croup and narrow angle, but I am guessing that is not true...


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## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> I was reasonably sure the tape was in the wrong spot, too. Also his feet, both front and rear, aren't positioned very well (I know it was supposed to be the dog standing casually) so it's really hard to make any comments at all.


Yes, I don't think putting spots on the dog has really made judging a picture that much easier. The spots migrate or you might not get them in the right spot...


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## HiTideGoldens

The tape kept moving after it was placed, so it probably is wrong. I'll try again tonight and position his feet better as well. It's just hard to get the tape to stay in one spot!


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> I was reasonably sure the tape was in the wrong spot, too. Also his feet, both front and rear, aren't positioned very well (I know it was supposed to be the dog standing casually) so it's really hard to make any comments at all.


Question I had about the front feet - they should be positioned so the lower leg is straight? <- Keep in mind I don't really know much about positioning other than making sure the dog is comfortable and solid on all four feet to make a stand stay successful. 

I wondered when I was glancing over all of the pictures. My Jack's lower front legs seemed angled forward as did the other Jack's.


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## HiTideGoldens

Holy hell, I just looked at the other photos and that tape has to be wrong. I think I just don't know what to feel for in that area.....arg. It would be fantastic if the pros could put the spots on all the dogs for us!

What am I feeling for on the point of hip and point of buttock?


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## hotel4dogs

here's a photo of a dog stacked correctly. notice the straight line down the front leg. Also notice that if you dropped a line from the point of his butt bones (very back by his pants) it would just touch the front of his back toes. 
Of course, that's his handler that stacked him, not me!


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## Megora

Thanks - and absolutely beautiful dog<:

New question... the dog's head... I'm comparing it to my golden's head and neck and going nuts over the fact that I see my guy stretching his head and neck out all the time when I don't have a camera. When he's relaxed it looks more like in the pic below. 

What I'm curious about is - 

When goldens have the correct headset with the full arching neck, is it grooming, training with the food throwing and owners squeaking toys in crowd, or the handler using the leash to encourage golden to raise head? 

Or if a dog's relaxed head set is lower like with my golden, does it mean he's just lazy or that there is something structurely wrong? Like that shorter upper arm thing? 

- In the pic, I know I still didn't get the legs right. The back feet need to be further back. Heh, it could probably double as my fall pic, as you can see the leaves already collecting on the porch.

- I'm not trying to double up, again, I'm not worried about his conformation-ability. Just curious about what people see when they are judging goldens in the ring and want to learn more.


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## hotel4dogs

It's a combination of things, grooming being a big part of it.
Scroll back thru the dogs with dots, including Tito, and you'll see their necks really look a lot more like your boy's does, rather than the show photo of Tito.


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## damita

Here is a diagram for those who are having a hard time finding the right spots

http://www.grcc.net/files/club_documents/GRCCIllustratedBreedStandard.pdf

Page 6 shows the skeleton and where/what you are feeling for.


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## HiTideGoldens

damita said:


> Here is a diagram for those who are having a hard time finding the right spots
> 
> http://www.grcc.net/files/club_documents/GRCCIllustratedBreedStandard.pdf
> 
> Page 6 shows the skeleton and where/what you are feeling for.


Thank you! That helps a lot!


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## CarolinaCasey

Bumping up this old thread... I had wanted to participate before but Gibbs was in an awkward stage.

I think that I misplaced the shoulder/upper arm sticker.  I think it should be up ar the lighter collar markings now that I go back and feel.

10 month male, Gibbs


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## Stretchdrive

This does look fun!! I am going to have to try it with my dogs too!


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## GoldenSail

I found the stickers moved after I placed them so it is not a great factor. Gibbs looks like he has a short upper arm per the stickers, but you said they might be misplaced.


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## MaureenM

I really enjoyed reading through this thread! And now Finley's wondering what I'm doing as I try to find spots for dots, ect. I think it's fascinating, and even though I've read through the standard a few times, not being familiar with some of the dog anatomy terms the visual with the dots helps a lot.


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