# Dark vs White.... WHY?



## Bree's Mom (Jan 27, 2015)

Hello, I'm probably going to get myself in trouble here but I'm frustrated... and apologize up front as I do not mean to offend anyone (nor do I want to put my foot in my mouth). But Ok, here goes....Since there are so many breeders on this forum I'm hoping you can answer a question for me. Why are soooo many breeders now whelping only the "English/white/cream" color litters?  Is this breeder preference, a judging preference, or a sales trend? 

We're in Southern California and have 2 Goldens...my "heart-dog" Bree (soon to be 10) and her little sister Indy (7). Bree (to me) is more than a good dog, she's an incredible dog, a CGC and almost complete with our Therapy Team certification. But she's slowing down and my husband and I are now actively looking for a darker (red) female pup to add to our family and hopefully as she grows continue with her CGC to become part of a Therapy Team. But I'm frustrated at how difficult it's been as there are so few of the reds being bred (unless I go to a backyard breeder). Believe me, I do understand that color is not an indication of temperament or intelligence. We are an older couple and find that the darker more field type golden has been easier for us to care for (Bree is darker, her sister Indy is light and fluffy). And, though I do not mind traveling even several states away, I have not looked on the east coast because although I understand that breeders prefers to be the match-makers, my dogs ARE family and I feel it should be a 2 way street in choosing a new family member. 

So back to the original question..... What is it with this new trend of breeding the white Golden?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Go north. 

I believe the breeders you are looking for are up in the Washington area.... 

About the light coloring - a lot of it comes down to breeder preference for some breeders... and purchase preference (meaning people are looking for lighter puppies). It's not a new thing - it's just something that reinvents itself every 10 years, it seems. When I got into goldens, people did not like the dark colors... I saw it first hand with our goldens. People would ignore our redheads and go all googly over the younger and lighter dogs. The best I could figure is the lighter dogs probably seemed softer and sweeter to people. Or the darker colors tend to be a lot more common. Who knows. 

Right now I have two boys who are right in the middle. They just are golden. Not light or dark. When they get into the fields in fall, they blend right in.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

It is dependent on the breeder, most of the great breeders really don't base breeding decisions on color. They are looking at the whole package and though they might have a preference on color, they breed to the best dog to fit thier ideal.

Then there are others who do breed for color. Those breeders usually go where the fad or money is. Right now, that is the "white dog" craze here in the U.S. So, when money is a motivator the "English Cream" marketing ploy is great as a money maker. Charging large sums for dogs that are almost always not shown in any respected venue, generally not completing full health testing on dogs, claiming they are rare, and making ludicrous claims of reduced cancer risk or cancer free lines, these are several of the benefits to sellers producing "White Dogs". 

Interestingly enough, spending time on any of the sites that appeal to buyers who need a dog right now and bad breeders; like Craigslist, kijiji, or puppy find yearly huge numbers of light colored puppies and very few of the darker shades. 

I believe that color preferences especially on the buyer end shifts. So, I think once the bulk of the people in the U.S. see light dogs become more visible in the U.S. popular culture, everyone will be running to find a darker Golden. It just seems as a consumer culture we want what is new or considered different.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Chance will be 11 next month, so the lighter Goldens have been around longer than a "fad". He came from a HVB that cashed in and continues to cash in on the lighter Goldens, (they're not white, BTW). Total puppy mill and their puppies sell for thousands of dollars. But there are ethical breeders that breed exclusively light Goldens. 

I can't understand what is so wrong with looking for a certain color. Whether dark red or extremely light, who cares? Maybe I feel this way because I was into Danes for 35 years before I had Goldens and you definitely have "camps" in all the different colors. I always had Fawns and wouldn't even look at the other colors. I just looked for ethical breeders that bred Fawns. Simple.

If I ever purchase a Golden, (as opposed to rescuing), I'll look for a resposible breeder that breeds really light Goldens. I think they're beautiful and it's what I prefer. :smooch:

Whether or not everyone says they don't have prejudices against the "white" Goldens, I just don't buy it anymore. Why is it that only light Goldens are just a fad and the other extremes in colors are never described as such? :uhoh:


----------



## Adriel (Dec 15, 2013)

Actually, there is white "Goldens", but they are of the other fad of comfort size.  My egg donor had one for a few weeks. Very bad disposition, especially nervous and on edge; could never relax even when sleeping.

I am a red head and was adopted by a medium dark, so make a good pair. : Even got a picture taken to go in an album of dog owners that match their dogs. :lol: Now having owned a field Golden, think like to have a mix between the field high energy and the mellow breed standard, especially if same short coat. 

Have not seen the trend out here. The only cream I have seen was once and was real snooty about it being special and from England. Tend to see 95 percent blond, four percent mix, and one percent dark.

Good luck on your search and remember, they choose us, not use choosing them. :


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

kwhit said:


> Chance will be 11 next month, so the lighter Goldens have been around longer than a "fad". He came from a HVB that cashed in and continues to cash in on the lighter Goldens, (they're not white, BTW). Total puppy mill and their puppies sell for thousands of dollars. But there are ethical breeders that breed exclusively light Goldens.
> 
> I can't understand what is so wrong with looking for a certain color. Whether dark red or extremely light, who cares? Maybe I feel this way because I was into Danes for 35 years before I had Goldens and you definitely have "camps" in all the different colors. I always had Fawns and wouldn't even look at the other colors. I just looked for ethical breeders that bred Fawns. Simple.
> 
> ...


Perhaps fad is the wrong word but I would say the light color in particular is and has been attractive to bad breeders in the U.S. 

Are there ethical breeders that happen to have kennels of light dogs? Absolutely but I would argue a great breeder will use a dog that may not fall in thier favorite color range if it is the best dog. But if everything is avail be to you in the color of your choosing you will go there. I think so many dogs overseas are lighter is because the best stud/most used stud dogs where or produced lighter than the counter parts here in the U.S. 

I don't care one way or the other about what color people perfer and I agree just find a reputable breeder of that look. The sad part is I have tried to help people do just that and as hard as it is to find a reputable breeder, it becomes much more difficult when light color is top priority. There are just so many bad breeders cashing in on this shade of gold. 

I think this issue with bad breeders, the pervasive misrepresentation of this style as something different, rare, better temperament or healthier is the issue you feel are prejudices. I don't think that is fair that you experience this. On the other hand I can say personally it grates on my nerves when I walk up to any pet owner to complement them on a lovely Golden and I get corrected that it is an " English Cream" and how much better that breed is than Goldens.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Adriel said:


> Actually, there is white "Goldens", but they are of the other fad of comfort size.


I stand by what I said...there are no white _purebred_ Goldens. Comfort Retrieves are obviously not purebred Goldens.


----------



## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Completely agree with what has been said several times above. I think a lot of unethical breeders are trying to cash in on the "English cream" fad. Obviously that is not to say that every light colored golden is a poorly bred dog by greedy "breeders". Ethical breeders will focus less on color than other more important attributes. 

Personally, I like goldens in all colors from white to dark red but my preference is the standard "ordinary" golden shade.


----------



## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

In Australia the light colours are very popular. Most of the Ozzies on here have them. I myself prefer the lighter coats. My dog is on the darker side of mid (if that makes sense). I am constantly asked what breed he is, even by other goldie owners. When I say that he is a golden the next question is "is he purebred"? Next remark is usually "he's a gorgeous colour!" I think it is what is known as "the tide of public opinion". Anyone noticed how eyebrows are suddenly back in fashion? Unfortunate for those of us who plucked ours to death in the eighties!


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Bree's Mom said:


> ... I do understand that color is not an indication of temperament or intelligence. *We are an older couple and find that the darker more field type golden has been easier for us to care for (Bree is darker, her sister Indy is light and fluffy)*. ...
> So back to the original question..... What is it with this new trend of breeding the white Golden?


You really answered your own question, it's not simple. The reasons are all of the above. (money, show ring trends, personal preference) There are some breeders who are really 'puppy farms' breeding dogs to make money and who are cashing in on the lighter color being popular with the public who are willing to spend excessive amounts of money on a pet puppy with untitled parents who may or may not heave proper health clearances, simply for the look of the puppy. Anything for a buck.

The hobby breeders who show dogs for conformation or in performance areas don't take coat color into consideration at all really, they are more concerned with other traits a dog brings to the breeding that they are trying to improve in their next generation of puppies. Some people are very careful about developing the overall picture of their dogs including temperament and trainability. Others are not. Good breeders are people too and there are some who just prefer the look of the body type that typically comes with lighter, primarily European dogs.

Because breeders are human, it can be really easy to lose track of the all around dog and become overly concerned with what wins in the show ring where they compete whether that is agility, conformation, obedience or field etc. Certain traits take priority over others - in the conformation ring it tends to be what makes the dog flashier to the eye and in the performance ring it tends to be 'drive', the dogs desire to work, retrieving ability, athletic ability. It's primarily what has driven the Golden Retriever as a breed to have such separate looks in certain lines.

It takes time and effort to figure out which hobby breeders are really putting serious effort (not just lip service) into concentrating on the all around dog. Luckily you are not in a hurry to find a puppy and can really do this the right way, spend time on research.

It is ok to want a dog with an easier care coat and while it is typical that these dogs are darker in color, there are dogs out there without excessive coat who are different shades of gold, it just takes time to find them. No matter where you find your breeder they should be religious about health clearances as discussed on the breed's website Golden Retriever Club of America GRCA: The Official AKC National Breed Club.

How have you gone about researching breeders for the easy-care coat type you are interested in? It may be that you can get some ideas here if you need them. Not sure if you need some help locating a good breeder or if your question is just sort of a rhetorical vent since you sort of new the answers already. I love a good puppy search and although you can't really tell by my signature photo, I also prefer my dogs to have more minimal, easy care, correct coats rather than excessive fluff. I live in the south and my dogs do not need extra weather protection, they need to dry quickly after swimming and not take an hour to brush out after a hike in the woods.

Here is a link to look at field litters. http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?32-Classifieds-Golden-Puppies Could be a good place to look around and talk to people. Don't forget to ask about clearances.

Best wishes on your puppy search. By the way, your Bree is lovely.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

If you look at the photo of the dog who is standing/stacked in LJack's signature photo, she is a 'show' girl but her coat looks like it is not excessive at all and would be easy to brush out after a walk. There are dogs who aren't dark who are easy to care for.

Here is a photo of my girl with easy care coat. I do trim the scraggly ends of her tail so it has that arc and I neaten her feet so that she tracks less dirt in the house. That's pretty much it.



Also when she is dry


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Golden Retrievers are not White. 

Golden Retriever puppies:Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA)Considerations to buying a puppy


Rare White Goldens
If you are considering a "Rare White Golden," keep in mind that Golden Retriever colors exist from very light to very dark, but do not include white. Purebred Golden Retrievers do not come in pure white, even though some may be extremely light cream in color.

Also, be aware that there are a number of people specializing in what they call White Goldens making them sound rare and exotic. Light-colored Goldens are just that; it is simply a color preference. When evaluating a Golden Retriever puppy as an addition to your home, color should be the last thing you should consider.

They also may be charging much higher prices for these dogs than might be charged by any responsible breeder. Make sure that you ask about genetic testing and that you actually see written reports of clearance claims.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

nolefan said:


> If you look at the photo of the dog who is standing/stacked in LJack's signature photo, she is a 'show' girl but her coat looks like it is not excessive at all and would be easy to brush out after a walk. There are dogs who aren't dark who are easy to care for.


I am very lucky with Tilt's coat being easy care. I do think she does carry less coat than she could because we live in Phoenix and I refuse to refrigerate her. It is always amazing to see the hair beasts  that come south in the winter for the Arizona shows from Nor Cal, Colorado, Washington and Oregon.


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I wouldn't be too against having a breeder choose the pup for you. If you have a really good breeder, and tell them EXACTLY what you are looking for in terms of energy and temperament, they will likely make a perfect match. They know the pups best, and they want them placed in a perfect home. And trust me, you will be in love the MOMENT you see your new pup, whether you chose him or her yourself. At least, that's how it was for me. I didn't meet my girl until the day I flew in to pick her up. And she was perfect - perfect for me, and I was in love as soon as I met her. 

I totally get having a colour preference. My very first Golden when I was a little girl was a small red female. So it was always my dream to have one just like her one day. My first Golden as an adult came from a litter that _should_ have had some dark pups. It was a really nice breeding that was going to make really nice pups - that _might_ have been red. But they weren't. So I got my perfect dog - but she was medium gold. I still adored her. She was my heart and soul. My current girl, it was pure luck that she turned out to be a small red female. I look at it as a really great bonus. But I primarily just wanted a puppy from the specific breeding. She's not a field-bred Golden, but she is red and has a VERY easy coat - not too much undercoat, dries in a flash. That's correct coat. A specifically bred FIELD Golden will more likely be extremely high energy who will need a LOT of hard exercise and be very busy and may not have a real "off" switch. So just be aware of that if you are looking at field breedings. It may be more than you are expecting!  

Both of my dogs were brushed very nearly daily - if you take a minute or two every day and just run a brush over them, they are REALLY easy to keep clean. My last one had more coat than my current one, but both were very clean and not excessive shedders.


----------



## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't believe the OP said anything about a "white" Golden but "cream" I have a dark & a cream if that's that's the correct term. Jack the darker was harder to train and is defiantly bread for the field. Sweetie has been a joy to train and I'm hoping our therapy certification will be here to marrow. I think it's a preference but both are great. I do think some( only some) breeders try to make money by advertising "English Cream". I'm no expert but I believe there are dark Goldens in Europe too.


----------



## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

I think that Oprah Winfrey contributed to the popularity of very light Goldens in the USA. I don't recall seeing many until she imported hers. Then it because a status symbol and some breeders jumped on that bandwagon and were able to charge big prices for them. I think it's interesting how many people are looking for dark red Goldens now.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

fourlakes said:


> I think that Oprah Winfrey contributed to the popularity of very light Goldens in the USA. I don't recall seeing many until she imported hers. Then it because a status symbol and some breeders jumped on that bandwagon and were able to charge big prices for them. I think it's interesting how many people are looking for dark red Goldens now.


I wasn't aware that Oprah imported her dogs. I thought she purchased them from a "breeder" here in California, a total puppy mill. I wish I could remember the name...


----------



## GoldinPNW (Jun 23, 2015)

We are from WA and lave seen beautiful dark red heads walked hear unfortunately I don't know the breeder but I'd look around Redmond.

We got Benjamin from Kyon and I know when we got him 6 yrs ago they were so happy that we said no color preference and said we got one of the best because of it. Everyone on the east coast was looking for white, yes it was a "trend" for sure. Some breeders were charging crazy money for "white" puppies and breeding for color.

Health and temperament are much more important to us than color. Benjamin is not red head just has lots of medium dark in his coat.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

kwhit said:


> I wasn't aware that Oprah imported her dogs. I thought she purchased them from a "breeder" here in California, a total puppy mill. I wish I could remember the name...


I agree. I thought she bought them from Sandar, or one of their incarnations.


----------



## Bree's Mom (Jan 27, 2015)

> “Go north. I believe the breeders you are looking for are up in the Washington area“....


Thank you Megora ... 
And thank you too GoldenPNW


> “ We are from WA and lave seen beautiful dark red heads walked hear unfortunately I don't know the breeder but I'd look around Redmond.


 I will definitely look in the northern states to see what is up there. 

I had a feeling that the lack of reds had more to do with buyer preference than with show preference. And having had for 10 years a red and her sister (a medium/light fluffy ball) I know the difference in the amount of care and so I guess, yes, I’m also showing my “buyer preference”. 


> “My dog is on the darker side of mid (if that makes sense). I am constantly asked what breed he is, even by other goldie owners. When I say that he is a golden the next question is "is he purebred"? Next remark is usually "he's a gorgeous colour!"


 I also had to laugh when I read Harleysmum say this.... I am ALWAYS being asked if my Bree is an Irish Setter. When I say “nooooo.... She’s a Golden Retriever“, I get asked the same thing, is she purebred or WHY is she red? 

Wanting a red is a total personal preference and one I at this time am not ready to give up. My girls were both from the same backyard breeder and I honestly got “lucky”. But I’ve learned a lot on this forum about health certifications. I realize it’s important to confirm to make sure my new pup is as healthy as possible. My husband on the other hand shows me almost weekly red litters from back yard breeders. And once you’ve made the decision to add a new member to your family it gets hard to ignore these beautiful faces. But I want the best, healthiest pup I can get and so that is why I say no and continue to search. 

I do appreciate getting a bit of the mind logic from you breeders. It has always made sense why a breeder would wish to chose the pup for the family as they are the ones that have watched and nurtured this little joy from its birth to a its forever home. I want a dog suited for a future Therapy Team and I know for a fact it takes a special dog to be able to do that. My Bree is such a dog, her sister is not, and they are raised the same with equal love, training and attention. But deep inside I think that it is a two way street and the match has to be made by both parties.


----------



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

As I understand it, coat characteristics - color, thickness, length, texture etc. are largely genetic but also influenced by diet, health and climate. By actually meeting the parents and other relatives you should be able to get an idea of what kind of coat the puppies will develop, keeping in mind that unspayed females coats change depending on their cycles and whelping. I'd start by looking at breeders websites to see what their dogs look like. Then it would be even more helpful to join a local GR club and go to some shows and performance trials to actually see various dogs. 

Our Gracie is not red but some of her siblings are. She has an amazingly easy care coat. I've had a number of people ask me if I bathe and brush her very frequently (answer is no). Her breeding is a mix of show, performance and field and at just coming up to 2y rs. old, she's starting therapy work and is registered with Pet Partners. Here's a recent picture.

I do think it's important to have a full and frank discussion with any breeder about what you're looking for. That helps them make sure you get an appropriate puppy.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

GoldinPNW said:


> We got Benjamin from Kyon and I know when we got him 6 yrs ago they were so happy that we said no color preference and said we got one of the best because of it.


So, because I would prefer a lighter color, I wouldn't be considered for one of their best puppies? I find that offensive. :no:


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

kwhit said:


> So, because I would prefer a lighter color, I wouldn't be considered for one of their best puppies? I find that offensive. :no:


I think the OP meant the others were missing out on one of the best pups in that litter cause color was the priority as opposed to other factors.


----------



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I think the poster meant that not limiting their puppy choice by color enabled them to get the best puppy out of that particular litter.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> I think the OP meant the others were missing out on one of the best pups in that litter cause color was the priority as opposed to other factors.


Ah...okay, that makes sense. Touchy subject for me...


----------



## Adriel (Dec 15, 2013)

Sweet Girl said:


> Both of my dogs were brushed very nearly daily - if you take a minute or two every day and just run a brush over them, they are REALLY easy to keep clean. My last one had more coat than my current one, but both were very clean and not excessive shedders.


Every day? Wow, I didn't know. I used to do often when shedding twice a year, but now with how the conditioner poofs her rear, been brushing to get it even more. Since my friend said S.D.s need a bath every week, been doing at least that (after getting wet smells like skunk). Maybe can use it to train to say good morning?



fourlakes said:


> I think that Oprah Winfrey contributed to the popularity of very light Goldens in the USA. I don't recall seeing many until she imported hers. Then it because a status symbol and some breeders jumped on that bandwagon and were able to charge big prices for them. I think it's interesting how many people are looking for dark red Goldens now.


That picture to me looks what I call white, probably from the misconception out there. 

B.T.W. in my mind, cream looks between milk and butter. But then, I see more shades of color than the typical person. :

Bree's Mom, thank you so much for standing strong on your ethics/morals. Can understand hard, but thank you for doing the community a favor and yourself. Again, good luck! :wavey:


----------



## Smarkle (Aug 7, 2015)

She (Oprah) did get three dogs in one litter from Sandar. I googled it.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

kwhit said:


> So, because I would prefer a lighter color, I wouldn't be considered for one of their best puppies? I find that offensive. :no:


I realize this is a touchy subject, but seriously every good breeder I know personalally lists color preferences as tbe #1 thing they hate about breeding golden retrievers. They have pet people coming in and obsessing about what color the puppies will be when grown up and completely ignoring puppies they see as too dark. Or probably the silliest ones are people going with a litter with two dark coated parents and hoping for a blond pup. And asking if the pups will stay blond, etc. 

I know me personally I nearly did not pick Bertie because he was the lightest puppy in the litter and I did not want the breeder thinking that was all that was important to me. I did end up picking him because he was the best in the litter, but color was not a need for me.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

When we got Chloe we wanted something lighter then Jake. It was so soon that we wanted a golden that wouldn't remind us so much of him. But I will say it wasn't the number one priority. We just got lucky and the litter we found were of light color.


----------



## GoldinPNW (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi kwhit-

Yes they were not saying that they would not give you their best puppy but that they thought that people were eliminating the best puppies in the litter due to them not being white and that some folks all wanted only the lightest one no matter if they were the best match for them. Frustrating for a breeder to see I think that people were looking past all but the whitest dogs.


----------



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Bree's Mom said:


> We're in Southern California and have 2 Goldens...my husband and I are now actively looking for a darker (red) female pup to add to our family and hopefully as she grows continue with her CGC to become part of a Therapy Team. But I'm frustrated at how difficult it's been as there are so few of the reds being bred (unless I go to a backyard breeder)...


First off, I'm also in SoCal, and I find darker dogs without any problem. Here's one of my dogs.










If you consider her darker, I got her from Judi Voss at 24kt Golden Retrievers (note that is different from Joanne Scott's 24K Goldens). And while she's a show dog, she's not the big, fluffy, open coat kind of dog that show Goldens are assumed to be, but has a very "easy care" coat, so it might be worth giving Judi a call if that sounds like what you want. Going north is a good idea too. Try, specifically, Tonya Struble at Rush Hill Golden Retrievers or Jane Jensen at Dalane Golden Retrievers. They breed a lot of darker dogs. If you want to go east far enough, I'd suggest Patty Pace at Sandpiper Goldens.



> We are an older couple and find that the darker more field type golden has been easier for us to care for (Bree is darker, her sister Indy is light and fluffy).


Not sure what you mean, here. Darker does not equal field bred, so that's a misnomer. Also, a good coat is a good coat, and isn't related to color or style. I have two show dogs, and they both have fantastic, easy care, water repellent, self-cleaning, mat-free coats. My two rescue dogs have more challenging "open" coats. Good breeders breed for correct coats, regardless of color or emphasis on show, field, therapy or what have you. But with any dog, frequent bathing, blow drying and/or brushing (with the right tools) will keep the coats healthy and easy to care for. Regular maintenance will keep the undercoat down and the growth correct.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

GoldinPNW said:


> Hi kwhit-
> 
> Yes they were not saying that they would not give you their best puppy but that they thought that people were eliminating the best puppies in the litter due to them not being white and that some folks all wanted only the lightest one no matter if they were the best match for them. Frustrating for a breeder to see I think that people were looking past all but the whitest dogs.


I get what you were trying to say. But I just have to say this one more time...
*
There is no such thing as a white Golden Retriever.*

Chance is probably about as light in color as Goldens get, (without enhancing the photo, which I'm sure plenty of "greeders" do on their websites). Here is a picture of him on his first night home and you can see that he is cream and definitely not white:


----------

