# Help. need your expertise! What's a good quality food on a budget?



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I know you dont like the Science Diet but since she has been having problems then I would use that for awhile until the problem is improved. Have you checked to see if one of the online places that can ship it to you?


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't know if the Costco store is in your locale, but I remember reading that their Kirkland food is a good lower cost food. However, I don't know if this is the food for your dog's issues.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I order my food from petfooddirect.com. I wait until I have a good coupon code - either free shipping, 15% off or $20 off on $100 or more, and then I order 1-2 bags and my canned food. It works out to be a bit cheaper than my local dog food supplier, and it's delivered right to my door. I love that there are so many options. It's worth a shot if you really want to try a type of food not sold where you live, like California Naturals.

You can google and find some pretty good coupon codes - every 2-3 months there are some new ones and the bigger amount coupons come out. I just wait until I have a good code and order enough to last until the next coupon code.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Healthwise? Although if you don't have CN available, chances are Healthwise won't be available either.

you have a lot of limitations! lol Hope you find something.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

The ID is supposed to be temporary to aid in healing. I'd recommend you follow your vet's advice first and then experiment.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank for the advice. I have her on a bland diet with some of her regular food mixed in which seems to be helping. 

I believe my vet is wanting to me to change to science diet for the long term. 

I just wanted to try something with limited and different ingredients first, and my last resort is science diet ID.

Unfortunately no costco here.

Thanks for the recommendation about petfooddirect.com. The main reason I stay away from ordering pet food online is because of the shipping, but I will check this out...


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Hopefully, if you look at the ingredients in the Science Diet ID, you'll not want to feed it to your dog long-term. Some of us would do all we can to avoid it even in the short term, but that's personal opinion.

It sounds like you have limited food options. I also like Healthwise by Natura, but if that's not available maybe consider Avoderm.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If a dog is healthy on a food, I think it's odd to try really hard to switch to a food the dog is less healthy on, just because of the frequently unsubstantiated opinions on dog food websites.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> If a dog is healthy on a food, I think it's odd to try really hard to switch to a food the dog is less healthy on, just because of the frequently unsubstantiated opinions on dog food websites.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> If a dog is healthy on a food, I think it's odd to try really hard to switch to a food the dog is less healthy on, just because of the frequently unsubstantiated opinions on dog food websites.


I am not sure what you are saying. If the dog has firmer stools, but his coat is not good (not saying that's the case, but you are putting out a supposition, so I thought I would), how is that being healthy? There are other foods out there that are not too rich, but have less fillers in them. 

I understand that some people seem to do better eating McDonalds' quarter pounders every day, at least maybe their poops may be firmer. But overall, it can't be healthy for them, right?

skylielover, I think you could google some of the places where you can get food and compare prices and shipping. Around here we have a company called Triangle Pet Supply. They carry all different types of foods and delivery is free (to our area). I used to feed Chicken Soup, but my dogs were seriously itchy on it, and apparently that isn't uncommon.


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## BJSalz (Mar 24, 2009)

fostermom said:


> I am not sure what you are saying. If the dog has firmer stools, but his coat is not good (not saying that's the case, but you are putting out a supposition, so I thought I would), how is that being healthy? There are other foods out there that are not too rich, but have less fillers in them.
> 
> I understand that some people seem to do better eating McDonalds' quarter pounders every day, at least maybe their poops may be firmer. But overall, it can't be healthy for them, right?
> 
> skylielover, I think you could google some of the places where you can get food and compare prices and shipping. Around here we have a company called Triangle Pet Supply. They carry all different types of foods and delivery is free (to our area). I used to feed Chicken Soup, but my dogs were seriously itchy on it, and apparently that isn't uncommon.


 
We're feeding Blue buffalo and I know I have to switch - our pup is constantly itching his ears. Can you tell me what food would be best for itchy ears? I know that there is a huge food debate here but I'm just your average pet owner looking to give him ease with the itching. He's already poked his eye with a nail while itching, causing us a trip the urgent care and eye meds. Thanks!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I am not sure what you are saying. If the dog has firmer stools, but his coat is not good (not saying that's the case, but you are putting out a supposition, so I thought I would), how is that being healthy? There are other foods out there that are not too rich, but have less fillers in them.
> 
> I understand that some people seem to do better eating McDonalds' quarter pounders every day, at least maybe their poops may be firmer. But overall, it can't be healthy for them, right?
> 
> skylielover, I think you could google some of the places where you can get food and compare prices and shipping. Around here we have a company called Triangle Pet Supply. They carry all different types of foods and delivery is free (to our area). I used to feed Chicken Soup, but my dogs were seriously itchy on it, and apparently that isn't uncommon.


It seems like the OP is having trouble with a dog's health, i.e., colitis. The vet is recommending a food that may help with the problem. However, because of a philosophy about meat that's perpetuated online, the OP feels that the vet-recommended food, which may help with a serious health problem, is not as good as another food.

I think the OP should follow the vet's recommendation and try the recommended food and shouldn't worry about dog food philosophy. If the colitis improves on Science Diet, what's wrong with feeding it? A lot of dogs can tolerate these over-rich, protein intense foods and do well, but some simply can't. Why pursue a philosophy about having two meats in the ingredients or of having over 32% protein by calorie if the dog is better served by something that doesn't look as good on paper?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I am not sure what you are saying. If the dog has firmer stools, but his coat is not good (not saying that's the case, but you are putting out a supposition, so I thought I would), how is that being healthy? There are other foods out there that are not too rich, but have less fillers in them.


I would also say that most of what people call "fillers" in these foods are simply non-meat products that are perfectly healthy and aren't included as filler, but rather for balance. I already have my dogs on a high-protein, high-fat version of Eukanuba. There's nothing stopping them from making a blend that's even higher, but it simply isn't suitable for most dogs. Heck, even the PP I feed my dogs would make the average pet obese.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> If a dog is healthy on a food, I think it's odd to try really hard to switch to a food the dog is less healthy on, just because of the frequently unsubstantiated opinions on dog food websites.


After reading your post, I reread the OP's first post. The dog is apparently NOT doing well on Blue Buffalo - hence the search for alternatives.

I would think that most people starting threads in the health and nutrition forum are open to a variety of perspectives. They can read the varying opinions from here, other web sites, books and magazines; and then draw their own conclusions.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

BJSalz said:


> We're feeding Blue buffalo and I know I have to switch - our pup is constantly itching his ears. Can you tell me what food would be best for itchy ears? I know that there is a huge food debate here but I'm just your average pet owner looking to give him ease with the itching. He's already poked his eye with a nail while itching, causing us a trip the urgent care and eye meds. Thanks!


Are you cleaning his ears once a week with a soothing solution? That helps greatly.

Also, have you had his thyroid values tested? They're often the root of allergy-like symptoms.

Once you've covered those two more likely causes, it makes sense to look at allergies, and the culprit is probably the largest protein source in the food. Is the BB mostly chicken? Try a lamb or fish-based food with no chicken at all and see if it helps.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> After reading your post, I reread the OP's first post. The dog is apparently NOT doing well on Blue Buffalo - hence the search for alternatives.
> 
> I would think that most people starting threads in the health and nutrition forum are open to a variety of perspectives. They can read the varying opinions from here, other web sites, books and magazines; and then draw their own conclusions.


I was referring to the prejudice against Science Diet. If it can make the dog better, why not use it, regardless of how some people might judge it on paper?


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

fostermom said:


> I understand that some people seem to do better eating McDonalds' quarter pounders every day, at least maybe their poops may be firmer. But overall, it can't be healthy for them, right?


I see this comparison made a lot, but how is feeding foods with grains anything like eating McDonalds? Companies like Hills develop dog food formulas through years of research and clinical studies. I doubt they would bother doing all that research if they were just going to throw in a bunch of junk. I know a lot of people dont trust thier vets opinion, as most vets dont specialize in nutrition, but they are getting thier info from their colleagues who do research nutrition (who maybe are employed by companies such as Hills). Vets have to have a strong science background to get into vet school, so they would not be researching nutrition by looking at websites, but would look at scholarly sources and clinical studies. Most would not have the time to do this on thier own. Anyways....my point is that I think it's a large leap to say the foods vets tend to recommend are the equivalent of fast food. 

If a certain food can help a dog with a medical problem, it would be a shame for someone to be scared away from it because they read on the internet that the food is not good.


BTW, I do respect others opinions on dog foods and I think everyone is entitled to express thier own opinions. But, as a scientist-at-heart, I caution people to evaluate the quality of the evidence supporting various nutritional theories on the internet or elsewhere.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

The_Artful_Dodger said:


> I see this comparison made a lot, but how is feeding foods with grains anything like eating McDonalds? Companies like Hills develop dog food formulas through years of research and clinical studies. I doubt they would bother doing all that research if they were just going to throw in a bunch of junk. I know a lot of people dont trust thier vets opinion, as most vets dont specialize in nutrition, but they are getting thier info from their colleagues who do research nutrition (who maybe are employed by companies such as Hills). Vets have to have a strong science background to get into vet school, so they would not be researching nutrition by looking at websites, but would look at scholarly sources and clinical studies. Most would not have the time to do this on thier own. Anyways....my point is that I think it's a large leap to say the foods vets tend to recommend are the equivalent of fast food.


To me, the comparison is quite apt. The human body was not designed to properly use and rid itself of excess fat, carbohydrates and cholesterol. McDonald's foods are high in all of those things. A dog's body is not designed to properly use a bunch of fillers, such as corn and wheat. Science Diet and some of the other foods out there have a bunch of fillers. To me, it's not only not good for them, but it's a marketing ploy to cause you to have to feed more of their foods.

Yes, Science Diet does extensive testing. So do the premium brands of dog food. And yes, the Science Diet reps do a great job of selling vets on their food. Why not? The vets make money off the sale of the prescription diets. They sure don't make it off from the premium brands. Most vets had enough to learn about in order to graduate vet school without adding studying nutrition. 

FWIW, if there is no other option out there and it comes down to Science Diet being the only food your animal can eat, I understand. All 4 of my cats are on Hills Prescription Diet CD because of recurring UTIs. But I did try multiple other foods, most of which they looked better on, but the one cat continued to pee inappropriately, so I switched them back. She still is peeing inappropriately, but until she passes away, I will not try to switch them again.

BJSalz, I would try California Natural. I love that food. I am actually not feeding it right now because I can get a holistic blend of dog food delivered to my house that is comparable to CA Natural in quality, but costs me less.


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

fostermom said:


> To me, the comparison is quite apt. The human body was not designed to properly use and rid itself of excess fat, carbohydrates and cholesterol. McDonald's foods are high in all of those things. A dog's body is not designed to properly use a bunch of fillers, such as corn and wheat. Science Diet and some of the other foods out there have a bunch of fillers. To me, it's not only not good for them, but it's a marketing ploy to cause you to have to feed more of their foods.
> 
> Yes, Science Diet does extensive testing. So do the premium brands of dog food. And yes, the Science Diet reps do a great job of selling vets on their food. Why not? The vets make money off the sale of the prescription diets. They sure don't make it off from the premium brands. Most vets had enough to learn about in order to graduate vet school without adding studying nutrition.


I have seen many websites that say grains such as corn and wheat are fillers. I have also read on the Hills website that "_Corn is an excellent ingredient because of the benefits it brings to the product. Corn is a highly nutritious ingredient chosen as a source of protein (for muscle and tissue growth), carbohydrates (for energy), fiber, antioxidants (Beta-carotene, Vitamin E, Lutein) and linoleic acid - an essential fatty acid that promotes healthy skin and a luxurious coat....Most grains, including corn, are poorly digested before they are cooked. Once cooked, however, they become highly digestible. Corn is also highly digestible, higher than several other grains such as rice, wheat, barley and sorghum. Some consumers are concerned that corn may be a filler. Fillers offer no nutritional value whatsoever. Corn, as mentioned above, is a superb source of nutrients._
_We choose all of our ingredients for the nutritional value they contribute to each product we make_."

So as a consumer, who is not an expert in nutrition, who do I believe? Personally, I believe the website of a company such as Hills, who I know have been researching dog food for a long time, is more reputable than a website that could have been posted by anyone. 

I suppose a premium pet food manufacture site would be more reliable than a random site, so I just briefly browsed the blue buffalo website, as I've heard that food mentioned many times, and I read thier "philosophy" on nutrition, but it didn't mention any scientific research. I don't know what thier credentials are - but now I do know the names of their pets. (I'm not trying to knock this company or thier food but just making the point that I cant tell from their website how reputable they are). I dont know if the formula was based on science, or developed with the presupposition that certain ingredients should be better. 

Yes vets make a profit by selling Hills products. And pet food stores also make a profit by pet foods marketed by a variety of pet food manufacturers.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

> So as a consumer, who is not an expert in nutrition, who do I believe? Personally, I believe the website of a company such as Hills, who I know have been researching dog food for a long time, is more reputable than a website that could have been posted by anyone.
> 
> I suppose a premium pet food manufacture site would be more reliable than a random site, so I just briefly browsed the blue buffalo website, as I've heard that food mentioned many times, and I read thier "philosophy" on nutrition, but it didn't mention any scientific research. I don't know what thier credentials are - but now I do know the names of their pets. (I'm not trying to knock this company or thier food but just making the point that I cant tell from their website how reputable they are). I dont know if the formula was based on science, or developed with the presupposition that certain ingredients should be better.
> 
> Yes vets make a profit by selling Hills products. And pet food stores also make a profit by pet foods marketed by a variety of pet food manufacturers.


I wouldn't go by the Hills website any more than I would the premium food maker's website. Instead, I research through the Whole Dog Journal which, somewhat like Consumer Reports magazine does not accept advertising dollars which could be construed as being "bought" to write positive articles about products and foods. The cost of a subscription is high, but to me it's worth it because I trust their integrity. 

Pet stores also sell Science Diet, so I am not sure how you can compare them to the vets. They carry it all, the vets only carry a handful of "prescription" foods, plus some regular Science Diet foods. The smaller stores tend to be the ones who carry the more premium foods as opposed to the big box stores, probably because of the cost. Though Iams is right about the same price as California Natural.


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## GR_Princess (May 12, 2009)

I think it's all based on where you live..

At Petfooddirect with the 5% off coupon code for 2 bags of califorinia natural - Chicken it costs me *$110.66* (shipped)

At Lukesallnatural.com 

With their newsletter discount, which is on the front page $5 off $50 and the shipping discounts, it would cost me *$90.22* (shipped) for 2 bags.

2 bags is 20 dollars cheaper at Luke's, it's all about location. Just shop around.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Thank you all for your opinions and advice. I do not support science diet for personal reasons; however I need to do what is best for Skylie. I will say that my vet has not even heard of some of the premium foods I named and is primarily focused on science diet, as with every other vet I have ever been to. 

I just wanted to try another option where I could help settle her stomach AND feed her a healthy nutritious food at the same time. 

That is the hardest part - finding one that does both..

I also think that Science Diet ID is way overpriced for what's in it.. even though it is a prescription..

Thanks again. I have a lot to think about


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> A dog's body is not designed to properly use a bunch of fillers, such as corn and wheat.


What makes you call corn and wheat fillers? Do you deny the study after study that shows they're an appropriate source of a wide range of nutrients? Or are you just basing your claim off the dog=wolf fallacy?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> What makes you call corn and wheat fillers? Do you deny the study after study that shows they're an appropriate source of a wide range of nutrients? Or are you just basing your claim off the dog=wolf fallacy?


Actually, I am a bit more intelligent than that. I am not sure why you use that "tone" with me when you disagree with what I say. This isn't the first time, and I am sure it won't be the last. If you hadn't noticed in my post above, I do research and try to learn as much as I can about what goes into my dogs' bodies and brains. I use the Whole Dog Journal as my main reference guide, but have done other research, too. Which study after study are you referring to? Have you ever seen corn when a dog (or human) passes it through their digestive tract? It's still whole. So how is that an appropriate source of a "wide range of nutrients"?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> Actually, I am a bit more intelligent than that. I am not sure why you use that "tone" with me when you disagree with what I say. This isn't the first time, and I am sure it won't be the last. If you hadn't noticed in my post above, I do research and try to learn as much as I can about what goes into my dogs' bodies and brains. I use the Whole Dog Journal as my main reference guide, but have done other research, too. Which study after study are you referring to? Have you ever seen corn when a dog (or human) passes it through their digestive tract? It's still whole. So how is that an appropriate source of a "wide range of nutrients"?


I use the tone because you are totally dismissive of what other people think and because you refer to good, healthy foods that we feed our dogs as "full of fillers." It's insulting. I frankly have no time to tailor my posts to be nicer to you when you come out guns blazing about what irresponsible owners we are.

Are you seriously basing your opinions on corn by the fact that you can see it in your poop? Do you not think that you've digested it in any way? If not, why do you eat it in the first place?

When I say "study after study," I'm referring to the fact that corn has been shown over and over again to be a perfectly legitimate ingredient in dog food. Since the bulk of the veterinary establishment would back that claim, I think the onus is on you to supply the research that shows it's totally or mostly undigestible.

Corn has vitamin A, lots of calories, lots of fiber, lots of iron, among other things. That's all I can remember off the top of my head, but I suppose I could pull a package out of the fridge and read the ingredients. Why do you think that we can't digest it?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

fostermom said:


> Have you ever seen corn when a dog (or human) passes it through their digestive tract? It's still whole. So how is that an appropriate source of a "wide range of nutrients"?


Whole corn in dog food is ground and cooked. Like corn meal. When human beings or dogs eat corn meal, the starch is not incased in a hard shell so we don't "see" it....in our poop:yuck:

.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I use the tone because you are totally dismissive of what other people think and because you refer to good, healthy foods that we feed our dogs as "full of fillers." It's insulting. I frankly have no time to tailor my posts to be nicer to you when you come out guns blazing about what irresponsible owners we are.
> 
> Are you seriously basing your opinions on corn by the fact that you can see it in your poop? Do you not think that you've digested it in any way? If not, why do you eat it in the first place?
> 
> ...


Actually, I was not dismissive at all. And I certainly never even hinted that I thought people who fed differently then me were irresponsible. I disagreed, which I have every right to do, but I was not rude. When I am rude, I am totally willing to admit it. You have a way of talking down to people. I don't know why you post that way, but I have no desire to engage with someone who is talks down to me.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

Another food thread that has run it's course. :smokin:


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## TuckerPupp (Apr 10, 2008)

I am no dog food expert but I can give you my experience in finding a dog food for a dog with a VERY sensitive stomach... first I tried Royal Canin and my dog refused to eat is. I then tried Solid Gold and it was too rich for her, then I switched to Nutro venison and sweet potato limited ingredient. She did pretty well on that but she also has sensitive skin and it made her a little flakey. I heard great things about Canindae so I gave it try. It really upset her stomach... I switched all food gradually except switching from this one to another... I went to the store and they did not have the Nutro brand that I got but had California Natural lamb and rice. She did pretty good on this one... finally I am on Instict my other dog loves this food and she does well on it. I like the ingredients. although it is a bit more expensive they do eat less of this than any other brand. Her coat is looking good, she is happy, energentic and looks forward to meal time and she has smaller firm stools. She is happy and I am happy. I am not saying any of the others is bad or good they just did not work for my dog. I don't understand why one food works for another and one does not but keep looking and do your research and I am sure you will find one work for your dog. Good Luck :wavey:


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

A puppy buyer of mine has been feeding this with luck: http://www.nlpp.com/lamadermdog.htm 
And you can get it pretty reasonably priced at Wal*Mart.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

What about Purina Pro Plan? The sensitive formula (has an irish setter on the bag) works really well with Flora. It isn't cheap in my area, which is actually why I'm switching her food (I'm poor), but man, once we switched her over to the Pro Plan her stools firmed up so fast!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> Actually, I was not dismissive at all. And I certainly never even hinted that I thought people who fed differently then me were irresponsible. I disagreed, which I have every right to do, but I was not rude. When I am rude, I am totally willing to admit it. You have a way of talking down to people. I don't know why you post that way, but I have no desire to engage with someone who is talks down to me.


I don't think you realize how dismissive and condescending it is to refer to a major component of the food I give my dogs as "filler" and to act like the argument ends there. Nobody ever thinks she's the one who's doing the talking down. As far as I'm concerned, you haven't produced any hard data to support your attacks on the food my dogs happily eat and thrive on, and I do regard a lot of your comments as an implication that I don't take good care of my dogs.

You also imply that vets are motivated by profit rather than by the dogs' best interest, which is pretty insulting to people who dedicate their lives to healing our companions. 

So, please forgive me if my tone is condescending or hostile or whatever you'd like to label it. I think your comments in this thread have been unfeeling at best.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> What about Purina Pro Plan? The sensitive formula (has an irish setter on the bag) works really well with Flora. It isn't cheap in my area, which is actually why I'm switching her food (I'm poor), but man, once we switched her over to the Pro Plan her stools firmed up so fast!


Don't make yourself a target. Purina has the big baddie ingredients in it.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Don't make yourself a target. Purina has the big baddie ingredients in it.


Well, I admit I used to be of the mindset that Purina and Eukanuba weren't good foods, but oh my god, after dealing with months of liquid poops when she was on the "higher quality" stuff I was SO happy to find a food that worked for her. I'm sure she's a lot happier too.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> ...
> 
> Corn has vitamin A, lots of calories, lots of fiber, lots of iron, among other things. That's all I can remember off the top of my head, *but I suppose I* *could pull a package out of the fridge and read the ingredients*...


 
You don't actually believe that the corn used by most dog food manufacturers is the corn that you & I eat ... do you ?
You may want to research Monsanto's GM feed-corn ...
You can also check with pet food companies but for some reason ... most of them don't seem to know ... what kind of corn they use 

Here's what Linda Arndt , a well known Canine Nutritional Consultant has to say, and btw she's more pro-grain than I am 


"The issue of grain consumption in pet foods has more to do with the QUALITY and QUANTITY used in a food. For example, the use of corn in a food has gotten much bad press for being an allergen, when in fact it is the "feed grade" corn that is the problem and comparing it to human grade #1 corn; it is nutritionally as different as night and day"


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I don't think you realize how dismissive and condescending it is to refer to a major component of the food I give my dogs as "filler" and to act like the argument ends there. Nobody ever thinks she's the one who's doing the talking down. As far as I'm concerned, you haven't produced any hard data to support your attacks on the food my dogs happily eat and thrive on, and I do regard a lot of your comments as an implication that I don't take good care of my dogs.
> 
> You also imply that vets are motivated by profit rather than by the dogs' best interest, which is pretty insulting to people who dedicate their lives to healing our companions.
> 
> So, please forgive me if my tone is condescending or hostile or whatever you'd like to label it. I think your comments in this thread have been unfeeling at best.


I provided my source, the Whole Dog Journal. Unfortunately, it is a paid subscription source so unless you want to buy a subscription, you can't access the information.

I said that vets make money off from the food, which is true. I also said that they had enough to learn and study to become vets that they didn't need to add a non required nutrition course. So I am not sure how I was insulting to vets. But you will take it however you wish.

The OP was asking for suggestions to foods OTHER than Science Diet and was questioned about why they didn't just stay with the food the vet suggested. So my responses were in response to the OP's questions. I questioned your first post because I couldn't quite understand what you were trying to say and then you went on attack. I guess because you assumed I was calling you a bad pet owner, which never came out of my mouth. It doesn't matter to me what you feed your dogs. Your dogs, your decision. Just the same as I would never tell you when you should neuter your dog, even though I believe in neutering at a much younger age than you do. I even said that all of my cats are on Hills Prescription Diet because it was the only food that seemed to help with urinary tract issues.

So take it however you want to take it. I still don't feel like I was rude. If I were, I would apologize.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

fostermom said:


> I said that vets make money off from the food, which is true. I also said that they had enough to learn and study to become vets that they didn't need to add a non required nutrition course.
> 
> I even said that all of my cats are on Hills Prescription Diet because it was the only food that seemed to help with urinary tract issues.
> 
> .


It amazes me how so many think vets are clueless when it comes to nutrition. Maybe they don't have a minor degree in nutrition, but they have a good idea what to recommend if a pet is having digestive or nutrition issues. 

Just curious, did your vet recommend Hills Diet for your cats?


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## unclelar (Oct 10, 2009)

Wow, I can't tell you which food is best only my recent trek through the dog food search. When we adopted Buddy he was on Science Diet and weighed 58 lbs, considerably under Weight. Trainer advised to go to Nutro. So we used Nutro, I think we tried a few others, Buddy suffered from constant ear problems.
Then we got Lady and the rescue center said Pro Plan was the best so we went with Pro Plan. Dogs gained a lot of weight and coat was dry. 
Since we adopted Lady, she has a few small seizures not sure if she did before we got her or not. 
Different trainer who has a golden then said Taste of the Wild..... For some reason both would rather starve than eat it, not sure why. 
The final end to this saga is we are currently feeding Fromm White fish and Potato. Both our furry friends are making the adjustment, although there are times neither wants to eat in the morning. Now both are achieving a good weight and their coats are beautiful and Lady has not had a seizure (not sure if they were food related or possibly the stress of change homes.)
We pay about $50.00 for 30lbs through K9 cuisine and they usually send bonus stuff. We may introduce the other 4 star line in the future to try and give some variety.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> The OP was asking for suggestions to foods OTHER than Science Diet and was questioned about why they didn't just stay with the food the vet suggested. So my responses were in response to the OP's questions. I questioned your first post because I couldn't quite understand what you were trying to say and then you went on attack. I guess because you assumed I was calling you a bad pet owner, which never came out of my mouth.


You're pushing the OP to ignore the vet's advice and making unsubstantiated attacks on good foods that might actually _help_ her dog. It's irresponsible. I don't mind that you questioned my post, because it wasn't clear at all. I mind when you perpetuate myths about food that might actually hurt a dog. Most dogs can tolerate foods with protein that's a bit too high, so lots of them do fine on "grain free" or other boutique products. When you're talking about a dog with colitis, you don't play around with philosophy. You feed something that's _proven_ to help a dog in that situation.

And yeah, the fact that your cats are on Hills makes the rest of what you're saying sound really strange. Did your vet suggest that that your cat's UTIs and incontinence were perhaps being contributed to by a high protein food? 

You're feeding your cats lots of "fillers," even though cats are much more meat-dependent than dogs are, because it's the food your sick cat does the best on. Why, if corn is completely undigestible, is it an important component of the only food that doesn't make your cat sicker? I'm assuming corn is part of the ingredient list, though I don't know which prescription your cat is on.

I also don't accept that _The Whole Dog Journal_ is an acceptable single source for this debate. It's a magazine dedicated to "natural" dog care, so of course it's going to be on the bandwagon of fashionable ingredients.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

T&T said:


> You don't actually believe that the corn used by most dog food manufacturers is the corn that you & I eat ... do you ?
> You may want to research Monsanto's GM feed-corn ...
> You can also check with pet food companies but for some reason ... most of them don't seem to know ... what kind of corn they use


As a matter of fact, it is.

In case you haven't thought that far ahead, virtually ALL corn grown on the North American Continent is now genetically modified. You can't get away from it. 
Pollen is carried on the air. The genetic Genie is out of the bottle and there is no way to put it back. You are eating genetically modified grains, fruits and vegetables whether you like it or not and you have been for nearly two decades.

Get over it. It isn't relevent to good canine nutrition anyway.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

skylielover said:


> My head is spinning right now with about 20 different types of dog food.:bowl:
> 
> Skylie has colitis and a sensitive stomach (no vomiting, just loose stools)
> 
> ...


Get away from the designer diets. There are a whole lot of dogs that just can't handle them. 

Forget about what the food snobs are saying. You need to find a food that works well for YOUR dog and all the philosophical BS doesn't matter. I would start out by changing the dog over to a bland diet of boiled chicken and rice or boiled hamburger and rice (no kibble). This should get things firmed back up and set the dog up for recovery. Once you're seeing stability in digestion and stool production rou can start to add a small bit of kibble to the diet. Start with something simple that isn't too rich. Regular Pro Plan (not the shredded blend), Eukanuba, Purina One, or Iams Chunks are good starting points. Over a period of weeks, transition slowly from the bland diet to general kibble. 

If things don't stay firmed up you may have to go the prescription diet route with ID or other similar food.


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

T&T said:


> You don't actually believe that the corn used by most dog food manufacturers is the corn that you & I eat ... do you ?
> You may want to research Monsanto's GM feed-corn ...
> You can also check with pet food companies but for some reason ... most of them don't seem to know ... what kind of corn they use
> 
> "


This is a good point, in that you can't tell the quality of an ingredient by looking at the ingredient list on the food. Foods with similar looking ingredient lists may be entirely different in quality, which is one reason that food comparisons based soley on listed ingredients can be misleading. 

I know that Hills says they use grade 1 and 2 corn fit for human consumption. And I've read that Royal Canin has a machine to scan all the raw materials that come in to the plant to ensure that they are high quality.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Get away from the designer diets. There are a whole lot of dogs that just can't handle them.
> 
> Forget about what the food snobs are saying. You need to find a food that works well for YOUR dog and all the philosophical BS doesn't matter. I would start out by changing the dog over to a bland diet of boiled chicken and rice or boiled hamburger and rice (no kibble). This should get things firmed back up and set the dog up for recovery. Once you're seeing stability in digestion and stool production rou can start to add a small bit of kibble to the diet. Start with something simple that isn't too rich. Regular Pro Plan (not the shredded blend), Eukanuba, Purina One, or Iams Chunks are good starting points. Over a period of weeks, transition slowly from the bland diet to general kibble.
> 
> If things don't stay firmed up you may have to go the prescription diet route with ID or other similar food.


Good sound advice. I hope the OP follows it.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> As a matter of fact, it is.
> 
> In case you haven't thought that far ahead, virtually ALL corn grown on the North American Continent is now genetically modified. You can't get away from it.
> Pollen is carried on the air. The genetic Genie is out of the bottle and there is no way to put it back. You are eating genetically modified grains, fruits and vegetables whether you like it or not and you have been for nearly two decades.
> ...


No, you & your dog are not eating the same corn
And I'm not referring to corn quality, but corn variety
Humans don't eat GM feed corn
There are no GM sweet corn (people corn) plantations here in Quebec & very little elsewhere 
Yes 80% of human food now contains derivatives of different GM corn varieties
It's in your juice, your beer, your favorites pastries, your cereal, baby food, it's everywhere

Concerned consumers are fighting for mandatory labelling laws ... like they have in Europe & other countries
Why do we have to fight ... what are they hiding ...

A consumer who wants to know what they are eating, and what they are spending their $ on is a food snob ?

The approval of GMO's was a political decision, not a scientific one
And maybe you're ok with that but I'm not 

For those interested, here are just 4 parts of a 10part documentary now posted on youtube
You can't have more documented than that ...
You can see all parts thru youtube search
And come to your own conclusion as to whether it's "relevant to canine nutrition" or not 

Entitled "The World According to Monsanto" 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZqnJ8gLQuA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K8U4ABMino&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrGs73SVlRw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp0nl6ZXN9Y&feature=related


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> Get away from the designer diets. There are a whole lot of dogs that just can't handle them.
> 
> Forget about what the food snobs are saying. You need to find a food that works well for YOUR dog and all the philosophical BS doesn't matter. I would start out by changing the dog over to a bland diet of boiled chicken and rice or boiled hamburger and rice (no kibble). This should get things firmed back up and set the dog up for recovery. Once you're seeing stability in digestion and stool production rou can start to add a small bit of kibble to the diet. Start with something simple that isn't too rich. Regular Pro Plan (not the shredded blend), Eukanuba, Purina One, or Iams Chunks are good starting points. Over a period of weeks, transition slowly from the bland diet to general kibble.
> 
> If things don't stay firmed up you may have to go the prescription diet route with ID or other similar food.



Thanks. I have her on a bland diet of what you mentioned above. I add 100% canned pumpkin for fiber as well, and that always seems to help. I really think she can't handle rich ingredients such as Blue buffalo listed below

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Rye, Whole Potatoes, Tomato Pomace (natural source of Lycopene), Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols), Natural Chicken Flavor, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Flaxseed, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Alfalfa Meal, Kelp Meal, Taurine, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Yucca Shidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Turmeric, Garlic, Sunflower Oil (natural source of Omega 6 Fatty Acids), Herring Oil (natural source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Dried Chicory Root, Black Malted Barley, Oil of Rosemary

She has done okay on this before, but now her stomach issues has flared up yet again, so I think it is time to switch. 

I just wanted options other than Science diet. I'm glad that you listed several brands that could help.

I've decided to gradual try a different protein and carb source that are made to help sensitive stomachs such as fish and sweet potatoes.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

GR_Princess said:


> I think it's all based on where you live..
> 
> At Petfooddirect with the 5% off coupon code for 2 bags of califorinia natural - Chicken it costs me *$110.66* (shipped)
> 
> ...




Thank you I will definitely check this out


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

TuckerPupp said:


> I am no dog food expert but I can give you my experience in finding a dog food for a dog with a VERY sensitive stomach... first I tried Royal Canin and my dog refused to eat is. I then tried Solid Gold and it was too rich for her, then I switched to Nutro venison and sweet potato limited ingredient. She did pretty well on that but she also has sensitive skin and it made her a little flakey. I heard great things about Canindae so I gave it try. It really upset her stomach... I switched all food gradually except switching from this one to another... I went to the store and they did not have the Nutro brand that I got but had California Natural lamb and rice. She did pretty good on this one... finally I am on Instict my other dog loves this food and she does well on it. I like the ingredients. although it is a bit more expensive they do eat less of this than any other brand. Her coat is looking good, she is happy, energentic and looks forward to meal time and she has smaller firm stools. She is happy and I am happy. I am not saying any of the others is bad or good they just did not work for my dog. I don't understand why one food works for another and one does not but keep looking and do your research and I am sure you will find one work for your dog. Good Luck :wavey:



Wow you have had to change foods a lot! Thank you for all the suggestions. I thought about Candidae, but I have a feeling it may cause stomach upsets so I am staying clear. 

I'm glad to hear Instinct is working for you!


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> *Get away from the designer diets*. There are a whole lot of dogs that just can't handle them.
> 
> Forget about what the food snobs are saying. You need to find a food that works well for YOUR dog and all the philosophical BS doesn't matter. I would start out by changing the dog over to a bland diet of boiled chicken and rice or boiled hamburger and rice (no kibble). This should get things firmed back up and set the dog up for recovery. Once you're seeing stability in digestion and stool production rou can start to add a small bit of kibble to the diet. Start with something simple that isn't too rich. Regular Pro Plan (not the shredded blend), Eukanuba, Purina One, or Iams Chunks are good starting points. Over a period of weeks, transition slowly from the bland diet to general kibble.
> 
> If things don't stay firmed up you may have to go the prescription diet route with ID or other similar food.


I'm curious about what is your definition of "designer diet". Could you please be specific? Are you referencing ingredients, brands, prices, guaranteed analysis, etc.? It would be difficult for a person to know what "to get away from" without specifics.

Also curious, would the following formula fall into the parameters of your definition of "designer diet"?

*California Natural Chicken Meal & Rice Puppy Food* uses 100% chicken meal as the ONLY animal protein source. Chicken meal is a very palatable and highly digestible source of protein. Wholesome white and brown rice and sunflower oil are efficient sources of energy to support exercise and endurance.

Animal feeding tests using AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) procedures substantiate that California Natural Chicken Meal & Rice Formula Puppy Food provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages. 

Extra Information:
Calories 1751 Kcal/lb
Calories 3860 Kcal/Kg
Calories 466 KCals/Cup 


Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice, Chicken Fat, Flaxseed, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Vitamins/Minerals, Rosemary Extract 

Guaranteed Analysis %:
Protein 26 
Fat 16 
Moisture 10 
Fiber 2.5 
Review Snapshot® by PowerReviews Express
Be the first to review this product. Write a Review
close


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

SunGold said:


> A puppy buyer of mine has been feeding this with luck: http://www.nlpp.com/lamadermdog.htm
> And you can get it pretty reasonably priced at Wal*Mart.



Interesting, I've never seen this before. I'm surprised walmart sells it. 

I checked out the top ingredients. Lamb Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Ground Grain Sorghum, Poultry Fat 

I have never heard of ground grain sorghum in dog food, so that's something new

Thanks


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> What about Purina Pro Plan? The sensitive formula (has an irish setter on the bag) works really well with Flora. It isn't cheap in my area, which is actually why I'm switching her food (I'm poor), but man, once we switched her over to the Pro Plan her stools firmed up so fast!



Hello
I've tried pro plan sensitive formula made with salmon a while back, but Skylie did not like it at all. It does smell pretty bad, but most all fish formulas do. I just remember having to add stuff to it to get her to eat it so I could finish the bag :no:


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

unclelar said:


> Wow, I can't tell you which food is best only my recent trek through the dog food search. When we adopted Buddy he was on Science Diet and weighed 58 lbs, considerably under Weight. Trainer advised to go to Nutro. So we used Nutro, I think we tried a few others, Buddy suffered from constant ear problems.
> Then we got Lady and the rescue center said Pro Plan was the best so we went with Pro Plan. Dogs gained a lot of weight and coat was dry.
> Since we adopted Lady, she has a few small seizures not sure if she did before we got her or not.
> Different trainer who has a golden then said Taste of the Wild..... For some reason both would rather starve than eat it, not sure why.
> ...



Thanks for sharing your story. Sounds like you have done quite a bit of trial and error!, Glad you found one to settle on. I have heard good things about FROMM. Unfortunately it is not sold here, so I could have to purchase it online


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> I'm curious about what is your definition of "designer diet". Could you please be specific? Are you referencing ingredients, brands, prices, guaranteed analysis, etc.? It would be difficult for a person to know what "to get away from" without specifics.
> 
> Also curious, would the following formula fall into the parameters of your definition of "designer diet"?
> 
> ...



I have been trying to find California Naturals locally, but it is so hard to find. It is a little out of my price range right now, but I can make some sacrifices in order to find a good food for her. I have had many recommendations in the past with feeding California Naturals, and I would feel good about feeding to her.. I like the limited ingredients..


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> You're pushing the OP to ignore the vet's advice and making unsubstantiated attacks on good foods that might actually _help_ her dog. It's irresponsible. I don't mind that you questioned my post, because it wasn't clear at all. I mind when you perpetuate myths about food that might actually hurt a dog. Most dogs can tolerate foods with protein that's a bit too high, so lots of them do fine on "grain free" or other boutique products. When you're talking about a dog with colitis, you don't play around with philosophy. You feed something that's _proven_ to help a dog in that situation.
> 
> And yeah, the fact that your cats are on Hills makes the rest of what you're saying sound really strange. Did your vet suggest that that your cat's UTIs and incontinence were perhaps being contributed to by a high protein food?
> 
> ...




I think it's unfortunate when any one source, be it Whole Dog Journal, Dr. Dodd's books or the Hill's prescription people, gets broadly painted as entirely good or bad. Maybe there is valid and not so valid information to take away from all of them.

I'm of the opinion that well-informed consumers should access information from a variety of sources - the more the better. That said, The Whole Dog Journal identified California Natural as one of many recommended foods. I am curious about which, if any, of the ingredients in the following formula you would identify as "fashionable ingredients". 

California Natural Chicken Meal & Rice Puppy Food uses 100% chicken meal as the ONLY animal protein source. Chicken meal is a very palatable and highly digestible source of protein. Wholesome white and brown rice and sunflower oil are efficient sources of energy to support exercise and endurance.

Animal feeding tests using AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) procedures substantiate that California Natural Chicken Meal & Rice Formula Puppy Food provides complete and balanced nutrition for all life stages. 

Extra Information:
Calories 1751 Kcal/lb
Calories 3860 Kcal/Kg
Calories 466 KCals/Cup 


Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice, Chicken Fat, Flaxseed, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Vitamins/Minerals, Rosemary Extract 

Guaranteed Analysis %:
Protein 26 
Fat 16 
Moisture 10 
Fiber 2.5


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Frankly I'm most concerned with Science Diet's use of BHT, BHA and Ethoxyquin as preservatives than anything else.. I would not be feeding my dogs any kibble that does.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> Get away from the designer diets. There are a whole lot of dogs that just can't handle them.
> 
> Forget about what the food snobs are saying. You need to find a food that works well for YOUR dog and all the philosophical BS doesn't matter. I would start out by changing the dog over to a bland diet of boiled chicken and rice or boiled hamburger and rice (no kibble). This should get things firmed back up and set the dog up for recovery. Once you're seeing stability in digestion and stool production rou can start to add a small bit of kibble to the diet. Start with something simple that isn't too rich. Regular Pro Plan (not the shredded blend), Eukanuba, Purina One, or Iams Chunks are good starting points. Over a period of weeks, transition slowly from the bland diet to general kibble.
> 
> If things don't stay firmed up you may have to go the prescription diet route with ID or other similar food.


So anyone who feeds a kibble that doesn't have corn in it is a "food snob" now?


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

Bock said:


> So anyone who feeds a kibble that doesn't have corn in it is a "food snob" now?


I can't answer for SC but I would say no, but the one's who get on here and other sites and say 'stay away from Walmart and grocery stores, their food is nothing but crap'. Then the usual recommendation is to go to a specialized food store that only sells the 'premium' foods because they don't have corn. I would classify those as the food snobs.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I have no ideas for you. We have an easy keeper who can handle "hot" salsa and jalpena chips.

I just wanted to wish you well and hope you find something that works. Both you and your pooch need a break from this. :smooch:


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

msdogs1976 said:


> I can't answer for SC but I would say no, but the one's who get on here and other sites and say 'stay away from Walmart and grocery stores, their food is nothing but crap'. Then the usual recommendation is to go to a specialized food store that only sells the 'premium' foods because they don't have corn. I would classify those as the food snobs.


Nice. Thanks. Recommending a premium food makes me a snob.

I won't be posting in this thread again. Obviously the name calling has begun and I want no part of that.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

MyBentley said:


> I'm curious about what is your definition of "designer diet". Could you please be specific? Are you referencing ingredients, brands, prices, guaranteed analysis, etc.? It would be difficult for a person to know what "to get away from" without specifics.
> 
> Also curious, would the following formula fall into the parameters of your definition of "designer diet"?
> 
> ...


I know I'm not swampcollie, but wanted to express my own opinion on your post.

I happen to like Natura because they seem like an honest company fully immersed in the "holistic" philosophy and they treat it as a philosophy. Unlike some holistic food sites, Natura doesn't trash corn as "lower quality" or spread rumers that seem to change and flow as the internet.

I don't think their food is better then Eukanuba....and I personally, in my opinion, think Eukanuba is better actually. 

But I will say that when you read the ingredient list of Innova...your mouth waters. Its because the ingredient list is designed to attact the fancy of humans....and less designed to produce results for the dog.

That is what I consider a "designer dog food"

http://www.innovapet.com/product_line.asp?id=1#nutrient-analysis


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

fostermom said:


> Nice. Thanks. Recommending a premium food makes me a snob.
> 
> I won't be posting in this thread again. Obviously the name calling has begun and I want no part of that.


Geezzzz.......I gave a 2 part answer. The first line was inclusive to the answer. 

*but the one's who get on here and other sites and say 'stay away from Walmart and grocery stores, their food is nothing but crap'.

*But you probably have the right idea. I'm gonna stay away from nutrition threads. It's as bad as discussing politics.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I don't think their food is better then Eukanuba....and I personally, in my opinion, think Eukanuba is better actually.


I would disagree, but out of curiosity-what is your reasoning behind this? 

I'm not trying to start anything, I'm legitimately interested.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

What is the general feeling of these ingredients?

Chicken,chicken meal,whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, egg product, beet pulp, chicken fat(preserved with mixed tocopherols and Vitamin E), potatoes,fish meal, flaxseed,natural flavors, brewers dried yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline, carrots, peas, kelp, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder,salmon oil (a source of DHA), rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> But I will say that when you read the ingredient list of Innova...your mouth waters. Its because the ingredient list is designed to attact the fancy of humans....and less designed to produce results for the dog.


So it's a problem that Innova is only made out of things you would eat yourself? They have access to the same years of research that the large companies do, they're just applying it in a less profit-driven manner and using higher-quality ingredients. Other than the calories per cup (which just means that you don't have to feed as much Innova), the other numbers in the guaranteed analysis tend to be very similar between Innova and an equivalent Science Diet or Pro Plan food.


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Bock said:


> I would disagree, but out of curiosity-what is your reasoning behind this?
> 
> I'm not trying to start anything, I'm legitimately interested.


Well, I don't have any "science" to back it up. Pure opinion. But based on experiences I see on forums (no methodology to that I admit) I believe that if we DID have a study, where 1000 dogs were fed Eukanuba and 1000 dogs were fed Innova....that a higher percentage of dogs fed Eukanuba would fair better. I'm willing to think not a HUGE percentage would do better on Eukanuba...but I think more dogs would.

If the same study was done with Eukanuba and grain free EVO.... then I'm willing to bet A MUCH MUCH higher percentage of dogs would do best on Eukanuba. (remember this is opinion..based on experiences not fact) 

These commercial dog foods are made for the "masses". The formula has to work for alot of dogs. And a lot of research goes into it to make sure it does.

We say these premium foods are too "rich" or "nutrient dense" but that isn't accurate in my opinion. I think the formula just isn't the right formula for that dog...perhaps LACKING in something that dog needs. I've even heard that dogs react badly because they are getting rid of "toxins" that commercial brands poisoned our dogs with. To me that is going over the top pushing a product that is just bad for the dog. 

In my opinion if these "premium" brands were fed on a mass scale like the commercial brands they just wouldn't fly.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

katieanddusty said:


> So it's a problem that Innova is only made out of things you would eat yourself? They have access to the same years of research that the large companies do, they're just applying it in a less profit-driven manner and using higher-quality ingredients. Other than the calories per cup (which just means that you don't have to feed as much Innova), the other numbers in the guaranteed analysis tend to be very similar between Innova and an equivalent Science Diet or Pro Plan food.


I know some products are very good and like I said before I do trust Natura as a company.

But I invision people sitting around the table discussing what ingredients would spark the taste buds of the dog owners reading the labels. I think these companies will follow the internet hype...because many of their customers believe the internet. So ingredients that improve the formula are thrown out (like beet pulp) and ingredients that might be for show but add nothing substantial are thrown in (like cottage cheese)

After a second look at Innova's ingredients....I notice that cottage cheese comes AFTER sea salt. Which means there is more salt in the formula then cottage cheese. Amazing.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MyBentley said:


> [/B]
> 
> I think it's unfortunate when any one source, be it Whole Dog Journal, Dr. Dodd's books or the Hill's prescription people, gets broadly painted as entirely good or bad. Maybe there is valid and not so valid information to take away from all of them.
> 
> ...


I have nothing against California Natural. However, some of the opinions posted earlier about what constitutes a "good" or "natural" food would exclude CN. For example, the Protein and Fat GA numbers only add up to 40. Therefore, by the logic proposed earlier in the thread, 60% of the calories come from carbs. I've shown, I think, that the math that produces this kind of number is specious, but I'm making the point for argument's sake.

CN also has a grain in it (rice), and chicken meal, which includes bones as a major component. We could take issues with those ingredients we were attempting to be "holistic" about picking a food.

That little rant over, I do agree with you that taking any one source as gospel is foolish. Dr. Dodds knows a lot, but he's not god. The Whole Dog Journal is probably very informative, but right in its advertising, we can see a bias towards "natural" (whatever that means) dog foods. Hill's is a company, and even though there's good research being done there, there's an obvious bias towards their own products and patented formulas.

Frankly, CN seems like a great food. It probably doesn't have high enough protein and fat content to keep the pounds on my dogs, but for a dog who doesn't have trouble keeping weight on, it seems great. I think it's important to note that there's no data showing that rice is a superior ingredient to corn, but there's nothing showing anything wrong with rice either.

I don't really see anything in CN that I would regard as harmfully "fashionable," though if one is picking it because of a corn fear, I see that as a fad rather than a scientific choice, and flaxseed is definitely a fashion ingredient (again, not harmful). I believe rosemary extract refers to a natural preservative, rather than a flavoring, which is nice but not necessarily superior to other preservatives. Picking "chicken meal" over "chicken by-product meal" may be fashionable, but isn't necessarily in the dog's best interest. Organ meat is very, very nutritious, but counts as "by-product." That's hardly an indictment of the CN food, though.

Most importantly, the GA numbers aren't insanely rich in protein or fats, which you sometimes get in boutique foods. Feeding a dog too much crude protein can actually _cause_ health problems, despite the oft-cited "dogs are carnivores" argument.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I have nothing against California Natural. However, some of the opinions posted earlier about what constitutes a "good" or "natural" food would exclude CN. For example, the Protein and Fat GA numbers only add up to 40. Therefore, by the logic proposed earlier in the thread, 60% of the calories come from carbs. I've shown, I think, that the math that produces this kind of number is specious, but I'm making the point for argument's sake.
> 
> CN also has a grain in it (rice), and chicken meal, which includes bones as a major component. We could take issues with those ingredients we were attempting to be "holistic" about picking a food.
> 
> ...


To find the carb amount you add protein, fat, moisture and ash and subtract from 100.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> To find the carb amount you add protein, fat, moisture and ash and subtract from 100.


No, you don't. I wrote a long post on this earlier and the thread, so I won't repeat myself, but that isn't correct. I thought I was clear in earlier posts and in the one you quoted. Also, GA numbers tell you composition by weight, not by calorie, so I'm not sure how helpful it is anyway.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

From the Drs Foster Smith Educational site: [


> *How do you calculate the amount of carbohydrate in a pet food?*
> The carbohydrate percentage can be roughly calculated by subtracting the sum of the percentages of protein, fat, fiber, ash (generally about 6.5%) and moisture from 100%. For example, a dog cat food with crude protein of 21%, crude fat of 11%, crude fiber of 4%, estimated ash of 6.5%, and moisture of 10% would have a carbohydrate content of 47.5% i.e., 100 - (21 + 11 + 4 + 6.5 +10) = 47.5%.


http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=12&acatid=284&aid=458


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Here is a basic look at food labels, and also has the carb formula. She is on the health committee for the Bearded Collie Club of America, and this article is on her site. Her website has some very good articles. http://www.afterdarkbeardies.com/nutrition2.html


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> From the Drs Foster Smith Educational site:


I don't really understand what your point is. Did you read my earlier posts, and are you disagreeing with my point that because GA numbers are minimum and maximum percentages, rather than measurements, that arriving at a carb percentage that way is not necessarily accurate? (Even the good Drs point out it's a "rough" percentage). Also, if a food has any filler, you won't get an accurate carb number. Also, it's a measurement of weight, not calories, so what does it really tell you?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Here is a basic look at food labels, and also has the carb formula. She is on the health committee for the Bearded Collie Club of America, and this article is on her site. Her website has some very good articles. http://www.afterdarkbeardies.com/nutrition2.html


Sigh. This article quotes the _same_ myths about protein "quality," using the _same_ skewed BV numbers created by the _same_ single unverified internet source (TJ Dunn). There is no simple measurement of "protein digestibility." It simply doesn't exist, and if it did, it would be species specific. And again, if eggs are the best, why don't we feed dogs eggs!? Because eggs' value of 1 is based on a human child's needs, and it's not a measurement of "digestibility" or "bioavailability" anyway.

She also makes the _same_ fallacy of equating weight to calorie content. A GA of 30% crude protein does not mean 30% of the calories are coming from protein.

Not everything getting claimed in her article is incorrect, but this is what happens when people with no science background and little understanding of chemistry try to do advanced biology. You get these weird myths that _sound_ right but aren't based in solid data.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I am not savvy about what is good and not so good on the ingredient list so I will repost my question which is directly related to the OP

What is the general feeling of these ingredients?

Chicken,chicken meal,whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, egg product, beet pulp, chicken fat(preserved with mixed tocopherols and Vitamin E), potatoes,fish meal, flaxseed,natural flavors, brewers dried yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline, carrots, peas, kelp, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder,salmon oil (a source of DHA), rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jax's Mom said:


> I am not savvy about what is good and not so good on the ingredient list so I will repost my question which is directly related to the OP
> 
> What is the general feeling of these ingredients?
> 
> Chicken,chicken meal,whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, egg product, beet pulp, chicken fat(preserved with mixed tocopherols and Vitamin E), potatoes,fish meal, flaxseed,natural flavors, brewers dried yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline, carrots, peas, kelp, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder,salmon oil (a source of DHA), rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


Those ingredients seem great. Unfortunately, you can only learn so much from an ingredient list. This seems like a very normal chicken and rice formula. What are the GA numbers? That'll give us some hint about how a dog will respond.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

Jax's Mom said:


> I am not savvy about what is good and not so good on the ingredient list so I will repost my question which is directly related to the OP
> 
> What is the general feeling of these ingredients?
> 
> Chicken,chicken meal,whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, egg product, beet pulp, chicken fat(preserved with mixed tocopherols and Vitamin E), potatoes,fish meal, flaxseed,natural flavors, brewers dried yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline, carrots, peas, kelp, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder,salmon oil (a source of DHA), rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


pretty good ingredient list


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Jax's Mom said:


> I am not savvy about what is good and not so good on the ingredient list so I will repost my question which is directly related to the OP
> 
> What is the general feeling of these ingredients?
> 
> Chicken,chicken meal,whole grain brown rice, cracked pearled barley, egg product, beet pulp, chicken fat(preserved with mixed tocopherols and Vitamin E), potatoes,fish meal, flaxseed,natural flavors, brewers dried yeast, millet, potassium chloride, salt, choline, carrots, peas, kelp, apples, dried skim milk, cranberry powder,salmon oil (a source of DHA), rosemary extract, parsley flake, dried chicory root, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.


What brand is this? It looks good to me. 

Why do some not like egg product, beet pulp, or chicken fat? What about each would be bad? I'm trying to learn all of this..

Thanks


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

skylielover said:


> What brand is this? It looks good to me.
> 
> Why do some not like egg product, beet pulp, or chicken fat? What about each would be bad? I'm trying to learn all of this..
> 
> Thanks


I would say all three of those are perfectly good ingredients that get a bad rap for no good reason.


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## ID_Hannah (Jun 8, 2006)

Sorry to take this thread off topic of the original poster's purpose. 

But I was wondering where MyBentley got the information on California Natural. I've been reading food threads (not posting though, I'm not a big fan of politics :doh because I'm on the hunt for a new food for various reasons. The food I'm feeding currently is 26/16 for protein/fat. I'm looking for something similiar. I looked at the California Natural website at the Chicken Adult formula (cause I did like their limited ingredients) and they had 21/11 on the protein/fat. Am I looking at the wrong formula? Thanks for the help!



MyBentley said:


> [/B]
> Ingredients:
> Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice, Chicken Fat, Flaxseed, Sunflower Oil, Natural Flavors, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Vitamins/Minerals, Rosemary Extract
> 
> ...


To the OP. I've been on the dog food merry-go-round many times too. I have one dog with similar loose poop problems. :yuck: For him it's not so much about the protein source, but the simplicity of ingredients. He just doesn't do well on fancy. We try to stick to food with one protein source and one or two grains (and not much else). Makes for a much better poo consistency, tmi much?  I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it in this post or not, but I've had a lot of luck using digestive enzymes to get the dogs' tummies settled and their stools back to normal.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

skylielover said:


> What brand is this? It looks good to me.
> 
> *Why do some not like egg product, beet pulp, or chicken* *fat*? What about each would be bad? I'm trying to learn all of this..
> 
> Thanks


Must be in relation to 
- egg product vs egg
- beet pulp vs beet pulp (sugar removed )
- chicken fat vs vegetable/fish oils

Here are different opinions
This is why I like to rotate foods ...

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_pet_food_ingredients_6.html

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/beet_pulp_myth.htm

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

T&T said:


> - beet pulp vs beet pulp (sugar removed )


Beet pulp and beet pulp(sugar removed) is the same thing. Some ingredient listings put that "sugar removed" afterwards...but its not a different ingredient.

That is what I understand anyway. Its a byproduct of the sugar industry and it always has the sugar removed.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

ID_Hannah said:


> To the OP. I've been on the dog food merry-go-round many times too. I have one dog with similar loose poop problems. :yuck: For him it's not so much about the protein source, but the simplicity of ingredients. He just doesn't do well on fancy. We try to stick to food with one protein source and one or two grains (and not much else). Makes for a much better poo consistency, tmi much?  I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it in this post or not, but I've had a lot of luck using digestive enzymes to get the dogs' tummies settled and their stools back to normal.



Thank you, what food do you feed now? I agree with you about the limited ingredients. I was able to get a bag of _Wellness Fish and Sweet potato_ with limited ingredients, so I am going to try this for now. It is pretty different than the_ Blue Buffalo_ chicken and rice. I had no problem with Blue, and I was definitely okay with the ingredients, but it just may not be for her.

I also use the Dogzymes digestive enhancers.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

skylielover said:


> Thank you, what food do you feed now? I agree with you about the limited ingredients. I was able to get a bag of _Wellness Fish and Sweet potato_ with limited ingredients, so I am going to try this for now. It is pretty different than the_ Blue Buffalo_ chicken and rice. I had no problem with Blue, and I was definitely okay with the ingredients, but it just may not be for her.
> 
> I also use the Dogzymes digestive enhancers.


Can you give us an understanding of why you think this food switch will help the colitis?


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## ID_Hannah (Jun 8, 2006)

skylielover said:


> Thank you, what food do you feed now? I agree with you about the limited ingredients. I was able to get a bag of _Wellness Fish and Sweet potato_ with limited ingredients, so I am going to try this for now. It is pretty different than the_ Blue Buffalo_ chicken and rice.
> 
> I also use the Dogzymes digestive enhancers.


My dog with tummy problems isn't a golden. He eats NB Duck/Potato. Which is a brand I ended up using a couple of years ago when I had a dog dying of cancer. I was happy to homecook for her, but I felt better if she'd eat a cup of dog food a day too. There was something about the smell of duck. It was the only dog food she'd eat. It's working for him, I've been sticking with it. The lower protein/fat in the food isn't a concern for my current dog. He's the dog in the house that holds down the couch for me and tends to pudge up easily. The golden boys trail run and need the extra calories. The food they eat is a local brand that I believe is only available in my immediate area, so I'm no help there. 

I'm curious to see how Fish/Potato goes for you. When I was puppy raising for a service dog group my puppy Zulu had severe allergies (which appeared in skin issues, not tummy issues). He ended up doing great as long as he avoided chicken, but he thrived on NB Fish/Sweet Potato formula.


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

ID_Hannah said:


> Sorry to take this thread off topic of the original poster's purpose.
> 
> But I was wondering where MyBentley got the information on California Natural. I've been reading food threads (not posting though, I'm not a big fan of politics :doh because I'm on the hunt for a new food for various reasons. The food I'm feeding currently is 26/16 for protein/fat. I'm looking for something similiar. I looked at the California Natural website at the Chicken Adult formula (cause I did like their limited ingredients) and they had 21/11 on the protein/fat. Am I looking at the wrong formula? Thanks for the help!
> 
> ...



MyBentley posted the information for the CN Chicken and Rice *PUPPY* formula which has a higher fat/protein percentage.

If you like the idea of limited ingredients and generally like CN but want a higher protein/percentage I would recommend looking at Healthwise. It's made by the same company and also has limited ingredients but protein/fat percentages around 26/15.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Bock said:


> MyBentley posted the information for the CN Chicken and Rice *PUPPY* formula which has a higher fat/protein percentage.
> 
> If you like the idea of limited ingredients and generally like CN but want a higher protein/percentage I would recommend looking at Healthwise. It's made by the same company and also has limited ingredients but protein/fat percentages around 26/15.


Thank you Bock for clarifying that my post was for the CN Puppy formula. Many puppy formulas in this day and age can be considered "all life stages" formula. If someone said to me that the only kibble available for my dogs was the California Natural line, without doubt I would feed both my senior Bentley and my 2 year old lab the CN Chicken Meal and Rice Puppy formula. I believe the 26% protein and 16% fat is more beneficial for most dogs than the lower values in the CN adult formulas. Many people have great success with the CN adult formulas, but I'm aware of others whose dogs had difficulty maintaining good coat and skin condition with the 11% fat in the adult formula. To me, the lower carb % in the puppy formulas is also a plus.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Tippykayak....Here is the GA of the food ingredient list I was mentioning. It is Kirkland brand.

Crude Protein…………..28.0% minimum
Crude Fat …………..17.0% minimum
Crude Fiber………….. 3.0% minimum
Moisture………….. 10.0% minimum
Calcium…………..1.2% minimum
Phosphorus …………..1.0%minimum
Zinc………….. 225mg/kg minimum
Selenium …………..0.4 mg/kg minimum
Vitamin E …………..250 IU/kg minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids………….. 3.0% minimum*
Omega-3 Fatty Acids …………..0.5% minimum*
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) …………..0.05% minimum*
*Not recognized as an essentioal nutrient by the AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient profile.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jax's Mom said:


> Tippykayak....Here is the GA of the food ingredient list I was mentioning. It is Kirkland brand.
> 
> Crude Protein…………..28.0% minimum
> Crude Fat …………..17.0% minimum
> ...


That seems like a very normal, healthy food, perhaps a bit on the rich side unless the dog is fairly active. I'd be careful not to overfeed it, but it certainly seems like a food the average dog would thrive on. What's the kCal/cup number?

PS - it's weird to see moisture and fiber numbers listed as "minimum" rather than "maximum." Is that right?


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

It is 356 calories a cup. 

I'm thinking I will switch to this food from Merrick. I looked at the Merrick ingredient list and feel this one (Kirkland) is comparable and much cheaper. Also...my dogs dont seem to love the Merrick, flavorwise.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Can you give us an understanding of why you think this food switch will help the colitis?


As per a discussion with my vet, her current food may not be working for her because of all the additives and being a more dense formula. It only makes sense to try something with limited ingredients, and a fish source has been recommended to me in the past since it is known to help sensitive stomachs, which she has.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

skylielover said:


> As per a discussion with my vet, her current food may not be working for her because of all the additives and being a more dense formula. It only makes sense to try something with limited ingredients, and a fish source has been recommended to me in the past since it is known to help sensitive stomachs, which she has.


I guess I don't understand colitis in dogs, then. I won't overrule your vet, since I'm not one, but I don't understand using a fish based food as an approach to improving colitis.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I guess I don't understand colitis in dogs, then. I won't overrule your vet, since I'm not one, but I don't understand using a fish based food as an approach to improving colitis.




Changing foods may not improve or cure it, but you have to eliminate any risk factors. Using a fish based is just a personal choice and alternate option just as feeding corn. My vet never said "change to fish", just try alternate options. Certain foods could be irritating and causing inflammation of the colon and could even cause an allergic reaction, so it's best to find a food that works. 

We've already done the Metronidazole and everything else, so changing foods is not a bad option. She has intermittent loose stools, which also suggests a food change may be needed. In my past research on the forum, I have found that some members have had success with using a fish based formula for stool issues, so why not try it.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

skylielover said:


> Changing foods may not improve or cure it, but you have to eliminate any risk factors. Using a fish based is just a personal choice and alternate option just as feeding corn. My vet never said "change to fish", just try alternate options. Certain foods could be irritating and causing inflammation of the colon and could even cause an allergic reaction, so it's best to find a food that works.
> 
> We've already done the Metronidazole and everything else, so changing foods is not a bad option. She has intermittent loose stools, which also suggests a food change may be needed. In my past research on the forum, I have found that some members have had success with using a fish based formula for stool issues, so why not try it.


Changing foods its self is an irritant to a bowel that seems to already be wounded. The ID may not have the ingredients you like, but it has been proven in effectivily helping dogs in simular situations.

It may not be a bad idea to heal the problem first as changing from one food to another may make a worse problem.

Ultimately, I do understand the need to use a dogfood that you feel comfortable with.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Wow I just went back and re-read some of the previous posts, and this thread really went off topic..

Sorry if my original post led to some arguments.. I'm not sure how. I realize now that dog food is like politics, very strong opinions. 

Anyways, I think I will close my topic by saying I was just wanting some recommendations for foods that could help sensitive stomachs and colitis. 

Obviously not a food that's the same as Blue Buffalo, because it is not helping. :no:

Science Diet was recommended, but It was also recommended to just change foods period, which it why I wanted some recommendations. I was hoping to get some advice from members that has battled this with their dogs and could recommend something that worked for him.. Some of you gave me some options, so thank you for that..

There is always more research to do, but ultimately it comes down to what works for your dog and what is also healthy for them as well.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I guess I don't understand colitis in dogs, then. I won't overrule your vet, since I'm not one, but I don't understand using a fish based food as an approach to improving colitis.


My vet informed me that sometimes dogs don't do well with chicken based formulas, and she said we should try a food with a different protein source for Flora, such as a lamb formula or a fish formula. Her poops have been fabulous ever since she got onto a salmon based formula, although I do think it's a combination of the protein source as well as getting her off puppy food and onto an adult food. I mean... we went from liquid, watery, foul smelling stool to firm, normal poo-smelling stool in about 3 days. It was remarkable.


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

skylielover said:


> Wow I just went back and re-read some of the previous posts, and this thread really went off topic..
> 
> Sorry if my original post led to some arguments.. I'm not sure how. I realize now that dog food is like politics, very strong opinions.


Yes, your thread really did get dragged off course and through the mud! I just feel driven to comment when people imply that certain foods, particularly prescription foods, are not nutritious, because I fear that people who read these threads (not saying you), and want what's best for thier pets, might end up avoiding nutritious foods that their dogs may do well on or will help with certain medical conditions. 

I do hope everything works out for your dog and you find the right food for her


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> My vet informed me that sometimes dogs don't do well with chicken based formulas, and she said we should try a food with a different protein source for Flora, such as a lamb formula or a fish formula. Her poops have been fabulous ever since she got onto a salmon based formula, although I do think it's a combination of the protein source as well as getting her off puppy food and onto an adult food. I mean... we went from liquid, watery, foul smelling stool to firm, normal poo-smelling stool in about 3 days. It was remarkable.


Sure, I understand it in terms of ingredient intolerance, but not as a colitis-specific treatment. I would think, actually, that high protein or high fat foods might all be problems for canine colitis. That's probably where the I/D comes in as a recommendation. But again, I'm not a vet.

In the same shoes, I'd start with the prescription food, get the serious health condition under control, and then consider getting off of the prescription.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Sure, I understand it in terms of ingredient intolerance, but not as a colitis-specific treatment. I would think, actually, that high protein or high fat foods might all be problems for canine colitis. That's probably where the I/D comes in as a recommendation. But again, I'm not a vet.
> 
> In the same shoes, I'd start with the prescription food, get the serious health condition under control, and then consider getting off of the prescription.


Ah, I can see what you were getting at now. Flora's colitis was most definitely food-related, whereas Skylie's might be something a bit different. I'm pretty certain that, despite how I feel about prescription foods (and the cost!), if the adult formula/new protein source did not help Flora's colitis, I would have gone with whatever my vet next recommended.

My aunt has a cat who has so many problems, and one of them was bowel problems. As per her vet's suggestion, she put him on a prescription diet, and she said to me that it was the first food ever that he didn't get sick on. There is something to be said about that. If it's such an awful food, why would an animal do BETTER on it?

At this point Skylielover, don't you think maybe it's time to try the prescription diet for a while and see if you can't get her stomach to calm down? Then, after a period of time, you could try SLOWLY introducing a different food if you so desired. Trust me, feeding your dog the prescription diet for 6 or 7 months is not going to negatively affect the quality of Skylie's life. My Carmella ate Iams, which many people consider a low quality food (I think it's fine) for 9 years before we switched foods (our groomer recommended the new food , and she lived to be almost 15.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> Ah, I can see what you were getting at now. Flora's colitis was most definitely food-related, whereas Skylie's might be something a bit different. I'm pretty certain that, despite how I feel about prescription foods (and the cost!), if the adult formula/new protein source did not help Flora's colitis, I would have gone with whatever my vet next recommended.
> 
> My aunt has a cat who has so many problems, and one of them was bowel problems. As per her vet's suggestion, she put him on a prescription diet, and she said to me that it was the first food ever that he didn't get sick on. There is something to be said about that. If it's such an awful food, why would an animal do BETTER on it?
> 
> At this point Skylielover, don't you think maybe it's time to try the prescription diet for a while and see if you can't get her stomach to calm down? Then, after a period of time, you could try SLOWLY introducing a different food if you so desired. Trust me, feeding your dog the prescription diet for 6 or 7 months is not going to negatively affect the quality of Skylie's life. My Carmella ate Iams, which many people consider a low quality food (I think it's fine) for 9 years before we switched foods (our groomer recommended the new food , and she lived to be almost 15.


Hello
I haven't tried a different food and new protein source yet. That's what I am beginning to try now. It that doesn't work, then I will most definitely feed whatever my vet recommends. 

I know one poster mentioned that changing foods could cause irritation as well, but I haven't been experimenting with different foods. I know this is not the right time to be doing that, especially with a sensitive stomach.

The recommendations I've received was change foods completely and/or give Science diet ID a try. I am trying a new food only once, then switching to a prescription food if that doesn't help. 

thanks


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

skylielover said:


> Hello
> I haven't tried a different food and new protein source yet. That's what I am beginning to try now. It that doesn't work, then I will most definitely feed whatever my vet recommends.
> 
> I know one poster mentioned that changing foods could cause irritation as well, but I haven't been experimenting with different foods. I know this is not the right time to be doing that, especially with a sensitive stomach.
> ...


I definitely understand the resistance to switching to a prescription food permanently, both for cost and because it's formulated more with colon health in mind than with coat, energy, etc. Colitis can just be so dangerous; I really hope the next food you get is perfect.


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I definitely understand the resistance to switching to a prescription food permanently, both for cost and because it's formulated more with colon health in mind than with coat, energy, etc. Colitis can just be so dangerous; I really hope the next food you get is perfect.



Thank you! I will let ya'll know how it goes...


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## skylielover (Sep 27, 2008)

Well here's an update on Skylie's colitis/food Issues. 

I am happy to say that I found a solution to Skylie's colitis! 

I did NOT use science diet. I went with TOTW salmon formula, and let me say it is like night and day. I actually know what her normal poop is supposed to look like. She is not as gassy either and doesn't have to poop as much. She has not have any bouts of diarrhea since I made the switch either. I am very pleased!!


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

skylielover said:


> Well here's an update on Skylie's colitis/food Issues.
> 
> I am happy to say that I found a solution to Skylie's colitis!
> 
> I did NOT use science diet. I went with TOTW salmon formula, and let me say it is like night and day. I actually know what her normal poop is supposed to look like. She is not as gassy either and doesn't have to poop as much. She has not have any bouts of diarrhea since I made the switch either. I am very pleased!!


That's GREAT news! It must be such a relief to have finally found something that works.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

skylielover said:


> Well here's an update on Skylie's colitis/food Issues.
> 
> I am happy to say that I found a solution to Skylie's colitis!
> 
> I did NOT use science diet. I went with TOTW salmon formula, and let me say it is like night and day. I actually know what her normal poop is supposed to look like. She is not as gassy either and doesn't have to poop as much. She has not have any bouts of diarrhea since I made the switch either. I am very pleased!!


Always good to find something that works. Congrats!


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## nellie'smom (Dec 27, 2007)

Glad to hear that! Yay for Skylie!


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