# Will only work for food



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Looks like your guy has learned that you'll bribe and lure him. Smart pup.

It's a classic problem in reward-based training, particularly with food. The first step is to remove all luring from your repertoire. Get even the smallest piece of obedience from him without showing a treat, and then produce it from nowhere. You want him to work for the expectation of a reward, not for a bribe. Food should be used to reinforce behavior, not motivate it.

Does that make sense?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I do initially teach through luring. But I fade the lure as quickly as possible. Once the dog is reliably following the treat, I will let the dog watch as I hide a piece of food in my fist. That way the dog knows it is there even if he can't visually see it any longer. Once he has learned to work without seeing the food then I don't let him know ahead of time that I have the food on me. If the dog does not respond on his own I will physically put him into that position and praise him. Then I will release and try again. Dog does not get a treat until he has done it on his own without me having to physically put him in position.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I do initially teach through luring. But I fade the lure as quickly as possible. Once the dog is reliably following the treat, I will let the dog watch as I hide a piece of food in my fist. That way the dog knows it is there even if he can't visually see it any longer. Once he has learned to work without seeing the food then I don't let him know ahead of time that I have the food on me. If the dog does not respond on his own I will physically put him into that position and praise him. Then I will release and try again. Dog does not get a treat until he has done it on his own without me having to physically put him in position.


Yeah - I lure in the initial stages of some skills too. You have to be careful that you don't teach your dog to work for the food, though, and you need to move away from it pretty quick. It's a real pitfall you can run into with food-based training, and a common complaint among people who train with treats without learning all the ins and outs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I was going to say it depends on how old your dog is and what point you are in your training - if you are going to use food with training.

If he's a puppy, I would not be trying to get treats out of sight right now. They should be in your hands or visible from your mouth. Then as he excels at training like this, you start slipping the treats out of sight. 

Most people put the treats in their mouths because it keeps the dog from checking out hands. My gag reflex says that's a huge no-no. So instead I started slipping the treat to my other hand at my side, then leaving it in my pocket, then leaving it in my training bag off my person. 

The other thing is that while you are using food in your hands for training, that is not enough. You need to engage your dog. Play with him. Have praise and play parties that happen to include treats. Training should not mean you turn into a food dispenser for your dog. Training should mean you are engaging your dog's attention and giving your dog your full attention and playing just as hard and excited as you would if you were throwing frisbees and balls for him. It should be the greatest time the dog has in the day when you are totally playing with him. 

Ideally, you want your dog coming up to you and harassing you into training with him. Which my dog does every night, especially when we miss class.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Yeah - I lure in the initial stages of some skills too. You have to be careful that you don't teach your dog to work for the food, though, and you need to move away from it pretty quick. It's a real pitfall you can run into with food-based training, and a common complaint among people who train with treats without learning all the ins and outs.


agreed - many excercises I will lure for one or two days only, maybe even stopping the luring during the first session, depeding on the dog.

I am finding though that as I become more experienced in my training and knowing exactly what I am looking for I will use the lure longer than in the past in order to reinforce precision. But I have also become more skilled in getting rid of the lure so it isn't as big of an issue as that would have been in training my earlier dogs.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I also think a big issue for many inexperienced trainers (I know I was guilty of this) is they don't know how to provide a strong enough non-food reward, so if the dog doesn't think he will get food he doesn't care about performing the action. A switch in dog's thinking from "I might get a treat if I do this" to "good things happen when I do this" (whether those "good things" might be food, toys, praise, play, etc.) can go a long way in encouraging a dog to comply even if he thinks you probably don't have food on you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I also think a big issue for many inexperienced trainers (I know I was guilty of this) is they don't know how to provide a strong enough non-food reward, so if the dog doesn't think he will get food he doesn't care about performing the action. A switch in dog's thinking from "I might get a treat if I do this" to "good things happen when I do this" (whether those "good things" might be food, toys, praise, play, etc.) can go a long way in encouraging a dog to comply even if he thinks you probably don't have food on you.


Right. You want to use food as part of a suite of reinforcers. The dog doesn't work directly for the food. He works for you, and you've shown the dog that at any moment, you may dispense treats, play a game, produce a toy, make a fun sound, or reward him in any one of a hundred ways he enjoys. He gets praised for every good action, and that praise is paired with other positive stimuli. Eventually, the praise itself is strongly rewarding because it's been paired so strongly with strong rewards.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I also think a big issue for many inexperienced trainers (I know I was guilty of this) is they don't know how to provide a strong enough non-food reward, so if the dog doesn't think he will get food he doesn't care about performing the action....


Best cure for that is trying to get a CD on a dog who refuses to eat in public or high distraction places. :doh:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> agreed - many excercises I will lure for one or two days only, maybe even stopping the luring during the first session, depeding on the dog.
> 
> I am finding though that as I become more experienced in my training and knowing exactly what I am looking for I will use the lure longer than in the past in order to reinforce precision. But I have also become more skilled in getting rid of the lure so it isn't as big of an issue as that would have been in training my earlier dogs.


I agree. As you get the hang of it, you get a really clear idea of when the dog is starting to focus his attention on the treat instead of on you, so you can walk the line a little longer. An experienced trainer is not likely to make the mistakes that lead a dog to work for treats only.

There was a nice handout I got from a puppy kindergarten a few years ago that made distinctions between lures, bribes, and rewards. I believe it cited a training expert who wrote an essay on the distinction, but the name escapes me right now.


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## Kailani's Pack (Nov 21, 2010)

I think I'm probably guilty of training my pup to work for treats....She's almost 15 weeks, and I can get her to sit, stay, down, leave it, wait for her food, getting there with walking nice, etc...but almost all of it is only if there's a treat to lure her.

I'm beginning puppy kindergarten with her on Monday (I'm picking up some string cheese to use for class - this sound good to everyone?) so my hope is I'll start to learn better ways to do what I've been doing - 

But any suggestions on how to transition from where she is now (food-motivated) to a better situation? I just tried to do a few of the things suggested here (trying to get the action without the treat and then giving it if she does it, using alternate reward - game, praise) but for example, I couldn't get her even interested in going into a down without holding a bit of kibble out in front of her on the floor.

Help!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

At 15 weeks, I think it's OK to be using a lot of treats. And keep in mind that you will need a LOT in class just to hold her attention. 

The main suggestion I have is to praise and "party" when you do get a natural action that you want her to do on command. Don't tell her to sit, but praise every sit (what a good sit!) she does so she makes the connection. Don't command her to watch, but praise her for watching (good watch!). This is in addition to your regular training sessions when the treats are in your hand in her sight. 

The treats will fade to your pocket as she gets older and is consistently making the connection between the command and the action. And this usually doesn't happen until your dog is a few months older than your girl.


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## Kailani's Pack (Nov 21, 2010)

Thanks, Megora!


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## Moxiesmom (Nov 21, 2010)

I was going to ask something similar today as I wondered "how much treating is too much?". I have a 3 month old pup who is seemingly becoming treat dependent for "drop" as well as when I call her back in from outside. I do try to alter rewards from treat to praise to play, but she loses interest when treats aren't immediate rewards. She sits at crosswalks without treats, gives paw, etc. What other non treat rewards can I give?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I always laugh at this... shoot I only work for a paycheck which buys me food.....


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