# spay your golden, is this good or bad?



## Misslane&lois (Nov 18, 2007)

Hello again!!!!
I have a question for all of us.
to spay your golden, it's good or bad for her??

Some vets say is good because of tumors, however others say she must have puppies before spay her... what can I do???


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

In Europe spaying is not the instant thing to do the way it is in the USA. I would do it after she has her first heat... unless you plan to breed her anyway.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I'm a firm believer in spaying before first heat. Too many people end up with unplanned puppies if they don't. I worked for 8 years for a very large humane society, and will never forget all the unwanted dogs and puppies euthanized there. My experience is that only a very few people are willing and able to do everything to keep their bitches in heat away from males, or vice versa. Too many unplanned pregnancies result. My 'girls' have always been spayed before their first heat, with no proplems.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

Is it a vet that is saying she should have a litter or just "people"? I have always spayed my girls. I have heard some good advise about waiting untill skeletal maturity before fixing either sex that I believe is good advise but only if you are able to prevent an litter. I don't believe there is any need for every female dog out there to "have puppies" for whatever reason before being fixed. Even with the best of planning or expirence there are great risks in have a litter as well. Just ask Fallons mom.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Political correctness aside, if you choose to spay, do so approximately 2 months after the first heat cycle. 

Spaying won't change your girls normal personality or behavior. (Other than those behaviors that would normally accompany a heat cycle.)


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Our girls were spayed after their first heat. Spayed females have less incidence of mammary cancer and, of course, pyometria ( infection of the uterus).. Years ago we almost lost a springer/lab mix of this...... just because we didn't know any better. I would always have mine spayed as we don't breed.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Most Americans appear to me to be VERY pro spay-everything-that-has-a-pulse (and we can all see that theory totally works since we have no homeless pets in America, right?) where as in Europe where routine spay/neuter is not commonplace... they have no where near the problem. Why? Because they're responsible! Their attitude towards pets is far superior to the average careless attitude in the USA. We on the forum are the cream of the responsible crop- too many Americans are NOT. What we do with our dogs does not change these careless people, or remove them from our society.

Bottom line, idiots who don't care will still be idiots who don't care whether or not you spay YOUR dog.

That said... absolutely, spaying has some benefits! And even *I* might spay a female (though I don't neuter males anymore). But I would let her mature first. I firmly believe if you're too stupid to keep your dog from breeding against your will, then you should not own a dog. By all means, do it to help her live a longer, healthier life. But IMHO let her mature!

There are health benefits and while I may not spay my own dogs ever without medical reason, I totally understand those who do after maturity.

Study dogs before buying one- and if you feel you cannot handle a dog, in all his or her glory, then don't own one. JMO. Don't surgically ALTER your animal's growth and entire physiology before basic physical maturity out of fear or lack of willingness to do what it takes to be responsible and prevent an accident.

There are some I feel truly are responsible and educated who spay before heat because of the cancer issue. I do not agree with this practice any longer, though I once did. I think the benefits of waiting far out weight the small risk of allowing the bitch to mature fully and have one heat. But I can respect it as much as possible- if it is the motivation for spaying early.

You clearly LOVE your girl and if you are asking my advice I would say, a few months after her first heat (or next heat if she's already had one) get her spayed. Do NOT breed her just because someone said it's better- it's not! Breed her only if that is your plan anyway. JMO...


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

All of mine are rescues so I get the "stripped down street rod version" right off the bat.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I am very firm in the spay and neuter department. I request it done on all my puppies exept the very few that go to show homes. Not spaying a dog has many risks not only of them getting pregnant but health risks. 
Spaying eliminates the possibility of uterine or ovarian cancer and greatly reduces the incidence of breast cancer, particularly when your pet is spayed before her first estrous cycle. Its also is a great help and you don't worry about the dog getting bred by accident. I also believe accidents happen and they happen to the best of us. Things like silent and split heats are just one of mant many examples.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Misslane&lois said:


> Hello again!!!!
> I have a question for all of us.
> to spay your golden, it's good or bad for her??
> 
> Some vets say is good because of tumors, however others say she must have puppies before spay her... what can I do???


The reason it is best to spay a female BEFORE they have come into season, if she is not going to be bred, is because every heat cycle bombards the uterus with progesterone, which is, essentially, aging the organ and also increasing the incidence of mammary cancers by a huge percent. Therefore, it is recommended to spay before the first season (approx 6 months old) or as soon after as possible. Having a litter first is not recommended, as this enlarges the uterus and makes the surgery (hysterectomy) more complicated ie bleeding, etc.

BTW, this info is validated by one of the top canine repro specialists in the country, Dr. Robert Van Hutchison.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

TOTALLY agree having a litter first has NO benefit


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree with Pointgold and Ash. I would not risk the first heat cycle.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Have you checked in the last few months? I believe Dr. Hutchenson has revised the recommendation to two months after the first heat cycle. 
Studies have shown that while spaying before the first cycle reduces the odds of developing mammary tumors, it raises the odds of developing other more deadly forms of cancer. 

Going through one cycle only increases the risk of ovarian and mammary cancers by 2 1/2%, but lowers the risk of other more deadly cancers (Hemangiosarcoma, Osteosarcoma) by a bunch. (A bitch spayed before her first cycle is 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 times more likey to develop Hemangiosarcoma or Osteosarcoma than one that is unspayed or spayed after going through puberty.)

That old Spaying is "Healthier" nonsense is being kicked to the curb. You're ****** if you do and ****** if you don't. Pick your poison.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I think you should either spay her before her first heat cycle, or after her first heat cycle. I think that pretty much covers it.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Have you checked in the last few months? I believe Dr. Hutchenson has revised the recommendation to two months after the first heat cycle.
> Studies have shown that while spaying before the first cycle reduces the odds of developing mammary tumors, it raises the odds of developing other more deadly forms of cancer.
> 
> Going through one cycle only increases the risk of ovarian and mammary cancers by 2 1/2%, but lowers the risk of other more deadly cancers (Hemangiosarcoma, Osteosarcoma) by a bunch. (A bitch spayed before her first cycle is 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 times more likey to develop Hemangiosarcoma or Osteosarcoma than one that is unspayed or spayed after going through puberty.)
> ...


Totally agree Swampcollie!

I almost lost my SunnyRose to Pyometra because I did not spay her. She was 8 years old when she got Pyometra. I firmly believe in spaying and neutering but not until the dog is mature ----- 2 months after the first heat cycle for females and at about 14 months to 18 months for males

Jazzys Mom


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

I waited two months after Phoebe's first heat cycle. From the information I had gathered that seemed like the healthiest option. I hope I made the right decision as it would break my heart if I did anything that would cause her harm.

There was never a moment that I had to worry about Phoebe getting pregnant, she doesn't run loose, she is supervised in the fenced backyard, our sub rarely has a roaming dog. There was never a day where an intact male dog was stalking the property I guess part of the decision with spaying is whether you have the ability to keep the dog safe during heat cycles. For me it wasn't difficult.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Misslane&lois (Nov 18, 2007)

Hi again!!
Lois had 3 heats and I don' know if she can be spayed.
I made this question because I don't want she has cancer in a future. I don't want something wrong happens to her, do you know what I mean?
In addition, if lois would be pregnant, I'm afraid not be able to 'give' all the puppies and I can't have another one... because my house isn't very big and I don't want lois and the another one are bad, do you know?

hmm.. I only want the best for her.
I love this girl. 

however when I see lois with other golden puppies.. she is very maternal.... i don't know .. I am a little bit lost about this.
Lois' vet told me that is good for her and asked me if I want that lois has puppies...

I love all your advices, she is my first dog.. and how i can see.. all of you have a lot of experience with golden.

thanks for advanced-


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It is a massive amount of work and can be very scary to breed her and especially since it is not your goal with her, or something you want.

I can see she is your baby and loved so much. I would spay her now I think


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Jenna is right! Breeding a dog is a massive amount of work. I have done it. You must get clearances for your dog and make sure the male has his clearances too. Pedigrees must be studied to see it if they compliment each other. This is just BEFORE the actual breeding. You will ALWAYS run a risk to the mother by breeding. I'm not saying anything WILL happen to her but it could. Just do a search on here of Fallon and you will see that Heather lost her beloved momma dog when she had a litter of I believe 11 puppies that now are orphaned. I would spay your girl as soon as possible and if your vet thinks you should breed her because she has "maternal" instincts then I'd tell him to go breed himself! All, or most female dogs have a maternal instinct and the statement that some make about a female should have one litter to experience motherhood is just stupid! Its much better for the dog to be spayed or at the very least not bred. 

Why do you think she cannot be spayed?

Jazzys Mom


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## Misslane&lois (Nov 18, 2007)

i think that if it's the best for her, I'll do it.
I am not thinking of breeding because im worried if I can't 'give' all the puppies to people who wants adopt one of them.
I don't know if it's an important info but when lois has the heat, she doesn't want another male dog closes to her.
i don't understand about this, but it's such as lois wouldn't want to be mount.. hehe i don't know.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Have you checked in the last few months? I believe Dr. Hutchenson has revised the recommendation to two months after the first heat cycle.
> Studies have shown that while spaying before the first cycle reduces the odds of developing mammary tumors, it raises the odds of developing other more deadly forms of cancer.
> 
> Going through one cycle only increases the risk of ovarian and mammary cancers by 2 1/2%, but lowers the risk of other more deadly cancers (Hemangiosarcoma, Osteosarcoma) by a bunch. (A bitch spayed before her first cycle is 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 times more likey to develop Hemangiosarcoma or Osteosarcoma than one that is unspayed or spayed after going through puberty.)
> ...


 
Thanks, Swampcollie, I will definately check into this. I have a great deal of respect for Hutch, and would like to know his most current thoughts on the subject.

That said, I believe that any bitch (or dog, for that matter) that is not going to be bred should be altered as soon as is recommended.


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## Me&Ruby (Aug 20, 2007)

We've read something similar.
And when we enquired about it a couple of months ago (Ruby was only 4 months) the vet said we should wait until she's had ONE heat, then wait 3 months...and it appears to be standard in this country (unless you want to show/breed). I'd never had a bitch before (just a cross-breed old boy who was already neutered) so we haven't devised a plan for how to keep her away from male 'advances' when on heat...(if necessary I will keep her at home for a few weeks even if it means her wrecking the house!!)

Ruby's mother had had a few litters (Ruby's was her last) before she retired according to the breeder who said that they'd have her spayed.


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## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> .
> 
> That said, I believe that any bitch (or dog, for that matter) that is not going to be bred should be altered as soon as is recommended.


I agree!! Too many dogs are being put in shelters!! It breaks my heart to see those threads! I wish there was something I could do!!


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

Well said Pointgold!


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Misslane&lois said:


> i think that if it's the best for her, I'll do it.
> I am not thinking of breeding because im worried if I can't 'give' all the puppies to people who wants adopt one of them.
> I don't know if it's an important info but when lois has the heat, she doesn't want another male dog closes to her.
> i don't understand about this, but it's such as lois wouldn't want to be mount.. hehe i don't know.


A female dog's heat cycle typically lasts for about 21 to 24 days. Of those 21 to 24 days she can be bred only several days of the cycle. This means that at the proper time, when she is able to conceive puppies, only then will she breed with a male. The rest of the cycle she will not let a male close to her. Usually about the 14th day you will see the female begin to do what is generally called a "mating" dance around the male. When he comes near her she will turn her tail to his face and flag her tail to the side. This is indication that she is receptive to the male and can be bred. You usually have about 24 to 48 hours to breed them.

I tink your decision to spay Lois is the best one!

Jazzys Mom


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Pointgold said:


> The reason it is best to spay a female BEFORE they have come into season, if she is not going to be bred, is because every heat cycle bombards the uterus with progesterone, which is, essentially, aging the organ and also increasing the incidence of mammary cancers by a huge percent. Therefore, it is recommended to spay before the first season (approx 6 months old) or as soon after as possible. Having a litter first is not recommended, as this enlarges the uterus and makes the surgery (hysterectomy) more complicated ie bleeding, etc.
> 
> BTW, this info is validated by one of the top canine repro specialists in the country, Dr. Robert Van Hutchison.


Totally agree!!! SPAY!!!


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Have you checked in the last few months? I believe Dr. Hutchenson has revised the recommendation to two months after the first heat cycle.


Is there anything new regarding males? Haven't neutered Banner, if you could point me in the direction of where I could research the latest I would appreciate it.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Swampcollie said:


> Have you checked in the last few months? I believe Dr. Hutchenson has revised the recommendation to two months after the first heat cycle.
> Studies have shown that while spaying before the first cycle reduces the odds of developing mammary tumors, it raises the odds of developing other more deadly forms of cancer.
> 
> Going through one cycle only increases the risk of ovarian and mammary cancers by 2 1/2%, but lowers the risk of other more deadly cancers (Hemangiosarcoma, Osteosarcoma) by a bunch. (A bitch spayed before her first cycle is 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 times more likey to develop Hemangiosarcoma or Osteosarcoma than one that is unspayed or spayed after going through puberty.)
> ...


Could you direct me to these studies or what ever you can find relating to them? I've found some things to the contrary and would like to get info a little closer to the source. The often cited study (relating to mammary cancer probablities) I've seen referred to cites only a .05% chance of mammary cancer if spayed before the first heat verses an 8% chance if after... that's an increase of 160X !!!! (or a 16,000% increase) which I think is quite significant... and aren't the ovaries usually removed during a spay thus making ovarian cancer an impossibility? Also I found and read the 2002 study done on Osteosarcoma risks associated with early gonadectomies and it is not so straight forward as it might appear in some one else's translations of the results. I preceive some serious flaws with the data collection methods and reporting (and some of these potential problems are noted by the authors in the study). Plus the study really seemed to focus on neutered verses intact rather than the age gonadectomy was performed... thus simply waiting until after the first heat doesn't translate into a decreased risk verses before the first heat... so I don't know where Dr. Hutchinson is coming up with his conclusions and thus recommendations... is there another study I am not aware of? Also that study did note that neutered dogs lived longer than intact dogs (I thought it said 2 years longer but that may have been another paper I was reading earlier so I'll have to check to see if the average lifespans were specified in that particular study). I did check the Wikipedia site and it reported only a 2X increase in both types of cancers (Hemangiosarcoma, Osteosarcoma) for neutered verses intact and no mention of by the time gonadectomy was performed (IOW, before or after first heat).

We currently have Sophie's spay scheduled for Dec 17 (she'll be a week shy of 9-months) as we are shooting for it to happen before her first heat... if we are wrong in this I'd like to know soon so we can do what's best for her. So any info you or anyone else can provide would be greatly appreciated... thanks!


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## Misslane&lois (Nov 18, 2007)

well.... then I will think of it and i will consult with few vets!!!
thanks for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
seriously!!! and thanks for your point of view and share the experience!


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