# training "down"



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> waiting for her to offer the down once I've given the command


 Don't wait for a dog to do something if you've given a command. This just teaches them to ignore the command and keep guessing. And don't repeat a command if the dogs doesn't obey it. Because again, this teaches them to ignore the first command. If not obeyed on first command, follow through. 

The "wait game" if you are clicker training is waiting for a dog to offer a behavior on their own - marking it and giving it a "name"/connecting it with a command (good down!, etc). 

Easiest way to train fast downs on command - practice them in connection with feeding (especially if your dog is a food-hound) meals. You can start with doing a hand signal (hand palm side down - sweeping downward) to cue her, but generally once she gets the idea she has to do a down before getting food or treats, you'll get faster downs on command alone.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Megora said:


> Don't wait for a dog to do something if you've given a command. This just teaches them to ignore the command and keep guessing. And don't repeat a command if the dogs doesn't obey it. Because again, this teaches them to ignore the first command. If not obeyed on first command, follow through.
> 
> The "wait game" if you are clicker training is waiting for a dog to offer a behavior on their own - marking it and giving it a "name"/connecting it with a command (good down!, etc).
> 
> Easiest way to train fast downs on command - practice them in connection with feeding (especially if your dog is a food-hound) meals. You can start with doing a hand signal (hand palm side down - sweeping downward) to cue her, but generally once she gets the idea she has to do a down before getting food or treats, you'll get faster downs on command alone.


This may be a dumb question - but what do you do if they ignore you? Just wait it out? Because Max will just go do something else. This may be because I've always repeated commands (patience is not one of my virtues) but I'm just curious what other people do?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> This may be a dumb question - but what do you do if they ignore you? Just wait it out?


If you gave a command - you need to follow through if the dog ignores or does not offer the behavior one way or another. 

This is if you tell your dog to sit, and he does not sit. Or you told your dog "down" and he doesn't do that. Instead of repeating the command, do whatever you do to make the dog 100% successful at doing what you want so you can mark/reward/repeat and stop on a positive note. 

If you are shaping a behavior - then waiting it out applies. Meaning that you may be setting up your dog to hopefully build a behavior, but not mark/reward until you catch the dog offering either the behavior or something close to it. And really best time to do this is when the dog is in training mode and really focused on playing the game with you. If you have a lot of tuning out and head spinning, then it's not the best time or place to try shaping behaviors. Because you'll be waiting a long time for stuff to mark....

I posted a puppy video ages ago with how I taught Bertie the "go touch" game (I had a towel hanging on the oven door). It started out as a hot/cold game, but very quickly became a game where he absolutely had to touch the towel to get the mark/reward. This is something I did when I had his complete attention and he wasn't running off to play with the other dogs or cat.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

"Down" is a hard one here, too. With the hand cue (no lure), it's pretty solid, but not with voice.

I am sort of thinking of using another word. Start over again with a clean slate (and make NO mistakes with it, like repeating it). Sometimes I feel like my dog WANTS to do what I'm asking with the word, but has a hard time understanding the actual voice cue. Maybe there is something about the word "down" itself that is hard for them to catch?

I read something that if you say similar words to a dog in the same tone of voice, they will follow through with the command, meaning the accuracy of them hearing words exactly is questionable.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Megora said:


> If you gave a command - you need to follow through if the dog ignores or does not offer the behavior one way or another.
> 
> This is if you tell your dog to sit, and he does not sit. Or you told your dog "down" and he doesn't do that. Instead of repeating the command, do whatever you do to make the dog 100% successful at doing what you want so you can mark/reward/repeat and stop on a positive note.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Atis (Jul 8, 2014)

If you have a good sitter, you could start in the sit position and try this. Sit with her and give the down command while bringing a favorite chewing treat to her nose and use it to guide her down. when she gets there shower her with praise and perhaps a treat. Let her have a moment with her chew toy, take it from her, get her back in a sit and repeat several times. Don't beat it to death in one session when she gets bored of the game take a break and try again later. This method was taught to us and it worked well. In our case the chew toy was a flavored Nylabone and it was used exclusively for this game to keep it special.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

You need to ask yourself some questions.

Can my dog go down with the lure in hand?
Can my dog go down without the lure in hand with just the hand signal?

Using the lure itself is to set muscle memory. When the food lure is in front of their face they really are not learning any commands or cues so once you know your dog will go down with the lure it is time to remove the lure. 

If the dog isn't always going down on the hand signal you need to ask yourself am I using the exact hand signal every time? 
Am I using my clicker or verbal marker at the correct time? The click or verbal marker comes before you present the reward. If you present them at the same time the dog will not hear you and only focus on the hand/food. Instead of learning the hand signal they block it out and only focus on the food.

At first many people bring their hand signal all the way to the ground. When you are moving the hand signal higher from the ground are you doing it in small increments as in the process. A hand signal close to the ground for some dogs does not look like a hand signal at your knee or waist. 

Teaching the dog the verbal cue you need to say the verbal cue before you do your hand signal or the dog will block out the verbal and only pay attention to your hand signal.

In the beginning we ask for the verbal cue down, wait one or two seconds if the dog goes down mark it with the click or verbal marker such as yes then present the food on the floor between the front paws. If the dog goes down on the verbal cue the first few times I would jackpot this. About 10 pieces of food given one at a time in between those front paws.

If the dog doesn't go down on the verbal cue wait one or two seconds and then give the hand signal, if the dog goes down on the hand signal mark it with your verbal marker such as yes then present the food reward in between those front paws. For this I would only give the one piece of food.


Hand signal - yes - then reward 
verbal cue - yes - reward
verbal cue - hand signal - yes - reward

You need to figure out where in the process the training has broken down and take it a step and start over. Your pup is just confused. Don't lump split it up making it easier for the dog to understand. 

Dogs think in picture so you need to present the same picture each time or it becomes confusing to the dog. Dogs are individuals and for even some of our smartest dogs down seems to be a really hard behavior to learn.

If you cannot figure out where your dog is getting confused video your training and then you will be able to see exactly what you are doing and what the dog is doing and it may help you find your sticking spot.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Some excellent advice above. Just wanted to add that I find it easiest to teach "down" in a familiar, low distraction environment. It has seemed to me to be much harder for my dogs to generalize "down" to more distracting locations than say a "sit". I think this is because it's a more vulnerable, submissive position.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I agree with the TheZ's.

Once you you have the behavior "down" you can then in the same place (no distractions) work the behavior with the food out of your hand/off your body. Place it a few feet away in a bowl or bait bag. Work this on leash so your dog can't go to where the reward is. Ask for your behavior when the dog does it say your verbal marker or click and then say something like let's go get a cookie run to your rewards and reward there. Slowly moving the reward farther away over time.

But when you take your down (any behavior) to other places start over with the really easy steps. Just changing rooms or going out on the porch or driveway without any other activity around is very distracting so each time the distractions are ramped up go back to the easy steps and work through them first.

Only make things harder when the dog can consistently do it at least 8 out of 10 times in that habitat.


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## Loukia (Sep 20, 2014)

I had a really hard time getting Comet to go into a down around the 6-7 month mark. He was doing well at home but then all of a sudden he wanted nothing to do with it. And when he did, he would flip upside down and kick his legs in a tantrum. He never really wanted to go into a down at home or at class and my previous trainer always said it was because he didn't like the position of submission and was trying to assert his dominance. I don't know if this was the case or not, but I do know he didn't like it and would always protest. I was always having to put him into a down physically after he would refuse the first time. And while he wouldn't protest once I made him do it, he wasn't happy once in position. He would groan and complain. 

When I switched trainers, my new trainer suggested I start training him with down during meal times (as Megora suggests above). He also suggested I use the "free" command as a release so Comet could better understand when he was free to stop training. (His previous class used "ok" and apparently I completely confused Comet with this command because I say "ok" to my kids too.) 

I started using the "down" command in order for Comet to get his meals, I would make him go into the down and hold it and then say "free". This worked so well for him. Within a week he would almost jump into his down because he associated it with something wonderful. Now "down" is a sure thing. This practice also helped with his "down-stay". We started out small and now I can put him in a down, walk across the room with his filled food bowl, make him hold the down and then say "free" and he'll get his meal. It's become a bit of a game for Comet and he really enjoys it. And one added bonus is that instead of begging for his food he'll actually put himself in a down at dinner time, and wait there staring at me like, "Look... I'm in my down and read for my food!"


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