# How can my dog do better retrieving live flyers?



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I started this post because we've all seen a dog that hesitates or doesn't seem to know what to do at a test/trial with a live flier. This is a US issue since Canadians no longer use live fliers at their events. So here are some things I've noticed as a shooter at events. As a shooter I get to watch the dog and bird up close as they interact. You on the line can't see nearly what I see in the field. If you are curious about your dog's actions, ask the gunners.

1. In the morning, when I first begin shooting, I'm not as accurate. So keep that in mind with their first few birds shot or whenever the shooters change out. They might not be as accurate in the beginning of shooting. I am more likely to wing a bird or the bird flies away altogether. How will this affect your dog? There may be more NO birds. This means you need to train for the possibility that your dog may not be sent for that bird. Which is called a NO bird. Your dog has to go back in the holding blind behind the next 3 dogs usually. So your dog is all hyped up at the line, see the bird fly, hears the gunshot, and is told NO bird! Tough for a dog to take. Make sure to practice for it. If your dog is off lead, you will need to be able to get them back on a lead and take them from the line to the holding blind. Some dogs are super upset by this. So be prepared and train for this so your dog is under control.

2. At the live flyer gunner station there are 2 gunners and a thrower or launcher. The birds are either hand thrown or launched with a winger. When you go to the test, ask the judge which way it will be. If it's a winger, the bird can fly in different directions and are more unpredictable. So make sure to train for that. With a hand thrown bird it's a much more predictable direction that the bird will fly. You are also less likely to have a NO bird. So with a winger, make sure to watch very closely where that bird lands. I would be more inclined with a winger thrown bird, to send my dog to that bird first if I have a choice.

3. In the morning or when the shooters change out, you are more likely to have a winged bird and not a dead bird. These birds are more likely to hiss, bite, run from the dog. Train for that. Make sure your dog knows what to expect. Some are surprised by a bird that isn't dead. On the other hand listen to how many times the bird is shot. The more times the bird is shot, the more likely the bird will be bloody. If your dog hasn't had a bloody bird, they may refuse. So train for that.

4. With a live flyer that has been injured and isn't dead, it might move in the grass or brush due to the bird moving away from the gunners. Your dog might have trouble finding the bird. In some ways this is actually a better bird to have than a dead one. A moving bird is going to have more activity and signal a dog easier. But the dog might be more hesitant to pick up an injured flyer.

Any other thoughts about what to expect with a live flier and how to train for them? I mentioned more about what to expect and less on how to train for live flyers.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The big thing to remember is to actually shoot a flyer in training once in a while. In order to learn how to deal with a freshly shot bird or cripple, the dog has to see flyers. Don't get into a situation where the only time the dog sees a flyer is a test or trial. That is a recipe for failure.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Thank you for the pointers, I worked as bird boy (bird marshall sounds so much fancier than bird boy) at the Golden Retriever National Master this year and was able to see a lot of this first hand. I belong to an HRC but I don't think we've trained with live flyers at any of the training days I've been to in the past year or so. I plan to ask about this now. I certainly have plenty of things to work on but I might as well add this to the list. I honestly don't know how else to get that done unless it's through my club. Suggestions?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

kristy you might be able to get your club to get you some live birds that you can take home and practice with on your own. I know that at our HRC started we didn't have live flyers. I never had the opportunity with clubs to train with that but my trainer got me six live birds and we taped them and did both winger launches and hand tosses without shooting them and I had to force fetch Kat to them because she was just so timid. After the first time she was forced, she suddenly got all excited and giddy, like she realized that she was stronger and bigger than that big old drake, ha ha. That was May and she picked up both of her hissing flyers at the test last weekend.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

For my dogs picking up a live flyer has never been an issue, it's the NO bird concept they loose their minds on. Telling a dog that is all set to go, that they have to leave the line and go away from their bird they just saw fly. Then you have to get back in line and wait. Then go to the line again and see them really hyped up. When that happens, it seems the dog is way out of control because they couldn't have that last series of birds. Now they are very hard to convince they need to sit and mark until sent.

If you can, work a live flyer gunner station at a test/trial to see how dogs act in the field. You'll be able to see the difference between a dog that uses their nose and one that marks well.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

OH and another issue that can arise. Last weekend one golden got DQ'd because the bird did get shot up too much and the exposed meat was just too much for the dog to give up. He would NOT give that bird to the handler for anything.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

It's just experience. Use them as a matter of course and it's not such a big deal.

Then again the first time Fisher ever saw a live bird was at his 2nd Junior test. He ran out there and was like "HOLY CRAP THIS THING'S ALIIIIIIIIIIIIVE"
He got very excited and tried to play with it. He was play bowing to the very much alive bird. After a few minutes of this he finally grabbed it and came hauling azz back with it, with eyes like saucers!!!  Ahhhh to be a naive Junior person, I never gave it a second thought to train with a live bird, before I showed up!!


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

nolefan said:


> Thank you for the pointers, I worked as bird boy (bird marshall sounds so much fancier than bird boy) at the Golden Retriever National Master this year and was able to see a lot of this first hand. I belong to an HRC but I don't think we've trained with live flyers at any of the training days I've been to in the past year or so. I plan to ask about this now. I certainly have plenty of things to work on but I might as well add this to the list. I honestly don't know how else to get that done unless it's through my club. Suggestions?


If your HRC club doesn't use live birds you might try googling upland hunt training and see if there are any hunting preserves near you that will work with you and your dog. The dogs love it and get a lot of exposure to live birds.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yep ^ . Take your dog upland hunting if you can. They learn the concept of "no-bird" real quick!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Barb,
How's it used in upland hunting?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Very good thread Stacey!
I have enjoyed every opportunity to work the girls with live birds. With Darcy I have to be closer and encourage soft mouth. Rose has a super soft mouth, but I worked with her on that since she was a puppy. I wish I had a pic of Rose with this chuckar, after a couple seconds of figuring out how to grab her, Rose went right behind her, grabbed her by the rear with just her head out and ran with the chuckar's head bobbing all the way back. 
I personally prefer a not so good shooter during training that gives you from the barely touched to over touched birds and an excellent shooter at the tests. 
Looking back I wish I had started with live birds when introducing my girls to birds. I thik it would have made the process much easier, less time consuming and probably my neighbors happier since they would have not seen me run all over my yard shaking a dead duck while blowing the duck call for my dogs.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

No bird when the dog flushes a bird and the hunter misses it. The dog may want to chase after it. No bird stops it.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I have watched dogs and how they pick up the birds when I am shooting. Some just shovel them up as they are running and barely slow down. Some circle the bird and look for the best angle, then catch them. Some jump back when the bird moves, then circle and dive in. I did have one poor dog at golden national qualifying field trial have a live bird run away towards the bird cages. The duck ran up along side the cage. The dog had been trained to stay away from the cages, so it ran back empty to the handler. Not sure how to resolve that. We knew we couldn't do anything about it as the shooters. No matter how we just wanted to kick the bird away from the cages. But we couldn't. Lots of things can go wrong at a test/trial. If you are early in the day, your dog won't have a lot of other bird scent to distract them. Later in the day the scent is everywhere, so you want that good marking dog.

I think the hardest part of goldens is they are very driven by their noses, the old "honor their noses" thing. Goldens need to have lots of focus on marking. I normally wait to a count of 4 with each bird thrown so my dog gets a good picture. Doesn't work every time, but it helps.

At tests/trials, watch for changing winds or strong winds. The smell will move pretty far pretty fast. That's where the marking comes in. With live flyers we have the issue when shooting that the bird can be carried by the wind in an unsafe direction, so we can't shoot them. So when you are in the holding blind, look around and see what the wind is doing. As you go to the line, see if it has changed since you were in the blind. This will effect the test/trial. Marking marking marking.

At golden national I got to see some of the judges sheets. The dogs that had a long hunt, were definitely not in the running for a placement in the field trials. The judges had very detailed drawings of what the dogs were doing.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> ....At golden national I got to see some of the judges sheets. The dogs that had a long hunt, were definitely not in the running for a placement in the field trials. The judges had very detailed drawings of what the dogs were doing.


I was just talking today about the judges scoring and sheets. While it is impossible to actually look at the sheets, it would be nice to see how our dog actually scored in a test. In a hunt test they need a 7 point average in order to pass. But it would make a nice training info to know if your dog had a 10 markability, 4 style, 7 trainability etc. Has anyone seen how their dogs scored?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Claudia,
Sorry for the confusion, I was referring to a field trial, which is scored. I saw the scoring sheet because I was marshalling at the time. I had a handler ask why they had not made the cut from the second series. As the marshal it was my job to go to the judges and ask. They were very nice and showed me the drawings of how the dog had run in both series. They kept very good records. So I was able to relay that information to the handler. The handler was not shown the sheet, I just described it to her.

As for scoring a hunt test and how it's done, look into taking a judge seminar with your local retriever club. They are always looking to develop new judges and often have a class in the spring. Often they are listed on entry express when available.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

No confusion Stacey.  No doubt one would get a much better perspective if taking a judging seminar. Even in hunt tests the dogs are scored but differently than in field trials. 0-10 on Marking, Skill, Perseverace/Courage and Trainability. The average of all four has to be a 7 for the dog to get a qualifying score.
I have ben told by different people recently that I just do not give my dogs enough credit. I try to think ahead of every posibilty in the field and be prepared for it. Reason why I enjoy your threads as it brings into discussion what to prepare for ahead of time. 
One thing I was not prepared for was my dogs walking on freshly spread hay at the line so we would not dig our boots from the mud or worse. 
Back to the birds; I cannot emphasise more the need of training with live birds before a test. When Darcy had her first live shot bird she ran straight to it, licked it and then she laid down next to it; not scared but in a way trying ot make it feel better. "Fetch" from a distance did not register with her so I had to walk to her, take the duck in my hand and had her fetch from my hand. Once she figured out she can do that we had no probems; she dropped it once, duck tried to run and I just kept on walking, Darcy ran to her, got it and brought it over.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You are allowed to ask the hunt test judges to see your score sheets at the end of the day. Catch them before they sign and turn in their books. It can be very interesting. They are typically happy to discuss their scoring method with you, which varies from person to person. It can also be telling as often their recollection is very different from the handler's!

When Slater got his last Junior pass the judges were two friends of mine -- with my ribbon they handed me their two judges sheets with all perfect 10s  That is in Slater's scrapbook!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's pretty rare to hit every bird when upland hunting, even if you're a perfect shot. The birds sometimes fly in ways that taking a shot wouldn't be safe.
The dog sits when the bird flushes. If the shot is missed, you tell him "NO BIRD", "HEEL" and he returns to you. Then he's released to go hunting again if he's settled enough to go back to intelligent hunting, not take off after the bird that got away (which is their natural inclination). And the dogs are very amped up, so they learn that they have to settle down and get back to business or they aren't going to get to go after another bird any time soon.
(eta, sorry, I see George answered...)



Alaska7133 said:


> Barb,
> How's it used in upland hunting?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> You are allowed to ask the hunt test judges to see your score sheets at the end of the day. Catch them before they sign and turn in their books. It can be very interesting. They are typically happy to discuss their scoring method with you, which varies from person to person. It can also be telling as often their recollection is very different from the handler's!
> 
> When Slater got his last Junior pass the judges were two friends of mine -- with my ribbon they handed me their two judges sheets with all perfect 10s  That is in Slater's scrapbook!


I had no idea that each dog had it's own scorring sheet.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Something I learned the hard way that most of us probably know but some of the extreme novice people may not know, the importance of waiting as long as possible between no birds.

When I was new and didn't know the importance I would have the "no big deal, we'll just go back in the blind and come back" mentality. In case anyone doesn't know this, the problem with that is the dog can remember what they just saw on the no-bird and not pay attention to the re-run and go directly where the no bird landed. So you want to give as much time in between as possible to "erase" the image of the no bird series.

I cringe when I hear novice handlers say "no big deal, I'll just get in the blind and re-run". If I'm in a position like marshalling or stewarding I usually advise them it's in their rights to give some time in between and why. Unless you're the last dog, which sucks when that happens.

It's amazing how different the dogs are with live birds. Boomer and Gladys love flappers. Dee Dee not so much. Some of the dogs in our group that have trouble seem to be the ones who are told to "leave it" with cats, chickens, bunnies, etc at home. They may have some confusion about being expected to pick up or even touch something alive. Or maybe they're just squeamish or not as brave, or a combination, not sure. Dee Dee was pumped up to pick up flyers for awhile but she did have some episodes of not doing it last year. I did a lot of running out and making her.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

boomers_dawn said:


> Something I learned the hard way that most of us probably know but some of the extreme novice people may not know, the importance of waiting as long as possible between no birds.
> 
> When I was new and didn't know the importance I would have the "no big deal, we'll just go back in the blind and come back" mentality. In case anyone doesn't know this, the problem with that is the dog can remember what they just saw on the no-bird and not pay attention to the re-run and go directly where the no bird landed. So you want to give as much time in between as possible to "erase" the image of the no bird series.
> 
> ...



Yup yup yup - awesome advise!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> ....the first time Fisher ever saw a live bird was at his 2nd Junior test. He ran out there and was like "HOLY CRAP THIS THING'S ALIIIIIIIIIIIIVE"
> He got very excited and tried to play with it. He was play bowing to the very much alive bird. After a few minutes of this he finally grabbed it and came hauling azz back with it, with eyes like saucers!!!  Ahhhh to be a naive Junior person, I never gave it a second thought to train with a live bird, before I showed up!!



I love this story  - I can just see this one playing out and his delight with that bird.


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

When I start hunting with Oscar he had some issues with winged birds. He couldn't pick up a flapping duck and been swimming in circles around it. I had to call him back, finished the bird and then he successfully retrieved it. Then after I trained him on shore with live birds and after couple sessions he was able to mouth and retrieve the winged game. I found that encouraging works much better with him than forcing, although he's forced-broken. No bird sometimes is an issue too, especially after prolong waiting in a blind. He's so excited literally jumping off from the blind 4-5 feet up in air. And he knows he won't be praised for such misbehavior, so he might find an empty shell or wad in a field and proudly bring to me as a reason to jump out, but I am not buying these tricks anymore and usually restrain him on leash for some time


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