# Does anyone know of any health problems in these two lines?



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm considering a puppy from these two dogs: Sonny x Roxy (pedigrees below). My biggest concern is hidden disease. Yes, I see the clearances, but do either of these dogs come from lines that throw a lot of bad hips/elbows/eyes/hearts despite the clearances? Or is there any particular disease that runs in these lines (e.g., a particular cancer or autoimmune disease)? Do dogs in these lines tend to die young?

If anyone has any information either way, I would love to know.

Here's Sonny: Pedigree: BIS BISS GCH CH Summits Sonny Side Up SDHF. He's only 3, so I'm looking backward along his lines.

Here's Roxy: Pedigree: Am. CH Ridgeview's A Night At The Roxbury. She's only 4, but has two litters out there somewhere.

Thanks! I'm trying to do as much research as I can. If anyone has suggestions for that, please let me know.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I think that goldenjackpuppy has a ridgeview puppy.....


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Have you asked the breeder? If not, that is where I would start. If you are trying to do your own research in the line....I always check the siblings, offspring, parents, grandparents of the parents...etc


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My Ryder kid did not pass elbows. On the other hand, these are the most gorgeous dogs, lol, and many did. Copley had an extra risk factor bc his mom did not pass her OFA elbows, though she did her canadian ones. I chose to take the risk, and I would probably do it again!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

These are lovely dogs. 

A big key here is whether you truly trust your breeder. If you do, review the public documentation yourself (hips, hearts, eyes, elbows, and whatever else is on these dogs and parents in the OFA database) and then ask the breeder for the other details. There should be a big pile of knowledge that the breeder has that goes beyond the basic clearances.

For example, look at Sonny's OFA entry. Because he's part of a network of awesome breeders, there are literally DOZENS of entries on dogs closely related to him. It provides you with an unparalleled look at the risk factors.

There's something like 15 of 75 entries (I may have miscounted by one or two, since it was a quick scan) where a dog has a hip clearance but a blank or failed elbow clearance. That's an honest, open discussion I'd have with the breeder about what the risks are of ED in this litter. My bet is that elbows are something they're scrutinizing with incredible care in making the choices for this matchup.

Just remember that all dogs (purebred and otherwise) come with some level of risk for health issues. Because these breeders have been so conscientious about clearances, there's more data on Sonny—because of Ryder's popularity—than there would be on the vast majority of dogs. So you see these potential problems and you can't pretend they don't exist. Don't mistake that transparency for elevated risk.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Tippykayak, thank you.  That is exactly the kind of information and advice I was hoping for. I'm going to have exactly that conversation with the breeder today. I have been through the public documentation, but I'm going to do it again with an eye toward elbow clearances.

Ljilly, thanks for the information about your Ryder kid. Sonny is a Ryder kid, too, and yes these are gorgeous dogs. What do you know about other Ryder kids?

Your posts are extremely helpful. Thank you so much!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Okay, another question about inferring from pedigrees. For instance, I'm looking at the pedigrees of Sonny's littermates for evidence of ED. I see Jefferson (Pedigree: CH Summits Moving On Up), who has hip and heart clearances listed, but no eye or elbows listed. Should I interpret the absence to mean that he failed hips and eyes? Or just that they didn't bother to get/list them? And is the "excellent" hip clearance any indication of elbows, or are they completely unrelated?

I don't know quite what inferences I should take. I don't know the owners, Amy and Betty Hueslein, so I don't know if they are people who are just loose with listing clearances (like I have been) or if they didn't list them because they couldn't get them.

Advice?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

If they (hips/elbows)aren't in the OFA database (www.offa.org), they weren't done or didn't pass. Eyes may have been done but not sent in. Ideally, the CERF form should be sent to OFA. 

A healthy dialogue is in order with the breeder regarding any potential issues. She is the best source of your information about the litter. It should produce lovely puppies. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Hip ratings offer no useful diagnostic information on elbows.

Elbows are posted if they're done through OFA and they pass, so a missing one means it was a failure and they decided not to post it or it means it wasn't done at all.

Eyes can be done without being posted. They're supposed to get mailed in so they show up as posted, but not everybody is super conscientious about mailing in their CERF forms.

I second the idea about having an open and honest conversation with the breeder. Speculating can backfire.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Well, I did have a couple heart-to-hearts with the breeder about elbows (and other general concerns). She says she scrutinized before deciding to do this breeding, and she doesn't think there is an elevated risk.

One thing she noted is that every puppy in Sonny's litter was sold to a show home -- very unusual -- and that no one really knows what it would look like if every puppy was xrayed and submitted to OFA, as occurred with Sonny's litter. Also we discussed Ryder's offspring from other dams (Sonny's half-siblings) and the dogs that are the biggest genetic influence in both lines. And other things.

In the end, she made me feel as if she had thought this through thoroughly, was very aware of the elbows in Ryder pups (apparently a problem only from one dam), knew what was going on in both lines, and would not have done this breeding if she was concerned about the risk. Which was comforting. But, then again, I don't really know how to evaluate this, so I have no idea if what she said was really reliable. She does seem trustworthy, has great feedback from other breeders and those who have bought her pups, and has been really great to work with. So, that all sounds good.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> Well, I did have a couple heart-to-hearts with the breeder about elbows (and other general concerns). She says she scrutinized before deciding to do this breeding, and she doesn't think there is an elevated risk.
> 
> One thing she noted is that every puppy in Sonny's litter was sold to a show home -- very unusual -- and that no one really knows what it would look like if every puppy was xrayed and submitted to OFA, as occurred with Sonny's litter. Also we discussed Ryder's offspring from other dams (Sonny's half-siblings) and the dogs that are the biggest genetic influence in both lines. And other things.
> 
> In the end, she made me feel as if she had thought this through thoroughly, was very aware of the elbows in Ryder pups (apparently a problem only from one dam), knew what was going on in both lines, and would not have done this breeding if she was concerned about the risk. Which was comforting. But, then again, I don't really know how to evaluate this, so I have no idea if what she said was really reliable. She does seem trustworthy, has great feedback from other breeders and those who have bought her pups, and has been really great to work with. So, that all sounds good.


 
I do believe Melissa is a great breeder, but you have to do what you feel comfortable with. If you do decide to get a puppy, I would always advise to do prelims. I have heard of too many heartaches from people showing and finishing dogs under two and then they go in for clearances and they fail hips or elbows. 

I have done prelims on my two and I will continue to do so on others that I plan to own.

And does she have anything in her contract if they fail a clearance and they were sold as a show pup?

If I remember correctly you are looking to show? Could be wrong!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I have a Roxy daughter from her only prior litter. She was bred to Hero and produced 5 puppies. Kira turns 1 on Sunday and is the only one in a show home. 2 of the boys from her litter could have gone to show homes but she had a waiting list of pet homes so they were sold as pets. 

There are certainly no guarantees with any pedigree but Melissa put a lot of thought into this breeding. And her contract does provide a guarantee on hips,elbows, heart, and eyes. I would discuss it with Melissa though rather than me explain it.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Thank you, everyone, for such fantastic information and advice. This is why this forum is so great: I received important information that I probably wouldn't have become aware of, otherwise.  It has given me the opportunity to contact others with knowledge of Ryder pups, those who have Sonny pups (which are all too young for clearances, but some of which have already had prelims), those who have expertise in ED and genetics, and to learn a lot about this. I've also discussed this issue with the breeder in some depth, of course.

After thorough investigation, I've decided that this Sonny x Roxy litter is within my risk tolerance, and I've decided to get the pick male from this litter, if there is a male and if he is good enough quality (if not, there is also a Rush Hill litter I will be putting a deposit on, just in case, and may end up with two puppies!). I will definitely do prelims on the pup to reduce the risk of spending a bunch of money to finish him, only to find he doesn't pass clearances at 24 months.

My last show boy -- a son of Sam (BIS BISS Am/Can CH Bonacres Sherwood Fourrest SHDF) -- showed incredibly well (got his two majors in his first three shows and finished in a matter of weeks), only to discover after putting a lot of money into him that he was sterile. So there are never any guarantees, but I'm glad to be aware of potential issues going in so I can make an informed decision, rather than finding out later. Thank you all, for that. To those who think the ED risk out of Sonny is unacceptable, I respect that, but after talking with a LOT of people about this, it's acceptable to me. If someday you see a thread by me with the title, "Oh, no! My dog has ED!" then you can say I told you so. :doh:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Since you have about a 1/10 or 1/20 chance of having ED in the general GR population, the question here is more about whether the litter has a risk that is at or below that of the general population.

I think you're quite right that the risk is acceptable here (i.e., at or below the general risk) and that the only reason we see it so clearly is the incredible diligence of the breeders who produced his ancestors and relatives.

So if your pup does end up with ED, you will still know you did everything you could to prevent it and you'll be prepared to deal with it.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

For what it's worth, my Chloe had 5 generations of hip clearances behind her....and the horizontal pedigree was strong also for hip clearances. She ended up moderately dysplastic with terrible allergies. There are a number of relatives of hers on this forum and her sire (Zoom) has produced a number of beautiful, healthy and big winning dogs. It happens. It sucks - bigtime - but it happens.


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