# To do the Begginers Novice or not? Advice!



## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Hello all..haven't posted on this topic because ima newbie at the obedience stuff and Lilly and I are still training.. Well kind of, need to really get back into it. Had way too much stuff going on these past few weeks to go! : we did end up Doing a show n go right before our long break and well, we stil need some work to do. Mainly on off leash heeling and recall. She's not a super amped dog, so it's hard to get her to keep her up if you know what I mean.. 
Well I was looking at the regulations and what actually you need to do a beginners novice and I think we could accomplish that as it doesn't require the heeling off leash. She can do the stand for exam just fine and can do the long sit/stays really well (has maybe broken it once). My question is ..is it worth it to do the BN or just continue to train (harder and longer as I've been bad) for the CD? Also, any tips to get my dog up? She's so lackadaisical about things.. She likes food but it too doesn't excite her..and I've tried all sorts of things. She does love squeaky toys.. So I don't know if I should use them for training for a bit then wean them out..only thing you can't take them in the ring come trial time! I just am at a lost.. We also do conformation but hasn't been doing a whole lot there and now we really can't as she pulled out her hair on her rear:doh:. So I'm really want to focus on the obedience. Sorry for the long post.. Just confused!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

For the BN...

You will generally have judges looking for wide heels, tight leads, lagging, etc. But these are only points off. 

The NQ would/could come from a dog failing to stay, failing the sit for exam (they just are supposed to touch the dog's head, but you DO have judges who try to do a more advanced exam on the dog), or failing to come into your space and sit for the front. 

I would definitely go for Rally first to really wean off the talking and urging before you do BN. With the BN, you can only praise your dog once during the heeling or something like that. 

Both Rally and BN are there for the trainer's benefit before going into the regular obedience ring. It's a good way to get comfortable out there in the ring, and confident in your dog.

ETA - about the dog being up. My main question is if she's doing a qualifying heel. I've seen some dogs get top scores when they have flat walked the entire time.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I'm a little scared of rally ..it's those darn signs.. I know the show n go I went to has one a month and they do a rally one so I could always try a run through, my trainer doesn't really do the rally stuff so it would be harder to get help unless I went to this other training place, but it's an hour away. Maybe going for the BN might be easier?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think it just depends on what your goals are. Is your goal to get the title, and as long she passes you'll be happy? Or do you want higher scores?

If it were me, I would continue training for the Novice, and then when you think she's doing well at novice level work I'd put her in Beginner's Novice to see how she handled the ring.

There's nothing wrong with using squeaky toys, the key is not to depend on it all the time to get your dog to work. I would hide it in my shirt, or tucked into my pants, heel a few steps, and then whip out the toy for her to play with.

You have to put a lot of your own energy and enthusiasm in for a dog that doesn't show it naturally in training. Be prepared to act a fool. Laugh with her, get on the ground and wrestle with her, grab her butt, etc. But you should be putting in enough energy that you are exhausted from just a few minutes of training.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I think it just depends on what your goals are. Is your goal to get the title, and as long she passes you'll be happy? Or do you want higher scores?
> 
> If it were me, I would continue training for the Novice, and then when you think she's doing well at novice level work I'd put her in Beginner's Novice to see how she handled the ring.
> 
> ...


Yes some of it is me.. I'm nervous and never done the more advanced obedience before. I was hoping she would be more of an up dog in the ring, so I guess I need to do more work on my part.. It's nice that she's not a hyped up dog at home though not so good in the ring. I will go buy her a special toy for training (again, as my kids had snuck her the other one I had bought and she tore it to shreds :doh. I will also work on getting myself goofy, which my trainer had mentioned before.. But I always felt a lil out of place doing it because most of the people in my class had dogs ahead of mind.. 

I want us to accomplish these titles with good if not great scores. So I know I must put more work into it. Any tips how to stay motivated?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Here's my take: and take it for what it is worth, I have put titles on my dogs from CD to UD, as well as RE. My rally titles were all put on after I was done with regular obedience with said dog. The problem I see with rally is that at the earlier levels, there can be a lot of praise and encouragement.. Goldens eat that up. So in the rally ring, they can shine with all,of the praise. Then they get in straight up obedience and my dogs are confused. Why isn't mommy talking to me? Loisiana is at a much higher calibre than I am and Flip likely has more enthusiasm that my dogs, so it is probably not a problem for people like her and dogs like Flip. So I would say,,if you do rally first, treat it like regular obedience... No talking. Beginner novice, the heeling is on leash with rally signs, instead of a judge talking to you... If a toy motivates, use that. And remember to use variable reinforcement...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I agree, I think rally does more harm than good for most new handlers who want to go on to do obedience. Watching an OTCH handler go through a rally course is usually a beautiful thing, but they usually go in not planning on giving any extra commands, cues, etc. I personally am not a fan of rally because I've got to use to much of my brain thinking about what I have to do next. I want as much focus as possible on the connection between me and my dog.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

What do you all use for the variable reinforcement? My trainer talked some about a "wow" treat method.. Do you use that?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

In Beginner novice dogs are not NQ'd for failure to sit... our first time in the ring Meir got up but he did not move forward across the line and he lost points but did not NQ judge said had he MOVED his feet forward and left the spot he would have NQ'd .... 

Beginner novice is fine ... I just started rally this year and while I do find it nerve wracking I also think its a ton of fun... just my two cents... we did do beginner novice and I would start there ... then move on to novice... and rally of course is a great time.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Zoe got her BN at the beginning of the summer. Neither one of us had any prior competition experience. We've had a Rally class and are training for Novice but she wasn't ready for heel free. When I posed your question to our trainer she wasn't wild about BN but said - it'll give both of you ring experience- which it did so I'm glad we tried it.

I found the most challenging part of BN to be the little signs for the heeling, as in Rally, but you can't talk to the dog and the judge isn't calling the pattern. So the dog has to get it's cues from your movement and you have to pay attention to the signs. Some of the dogs we train with who can handle Novice sits and downs pretty well, have trouble with the BN "sit, stay, walk around" because they become uncomfortable as the handler moves out of sight behind them causing them to break their sit.

Having said all that I'd encourage you to give it a try. Hopefully you'll find it mostly fun as we did.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Conner is my low drive dog with no interest in toys. Unlike Flip, who believes anything that involves movement is a good time, I had to work to get Conner to enjoy obedience. It was lots of constant work to keep him engaged and happy about working, but when I stopped showing him at age 6 he had a UDX, 7 High in Trials, and 28 OTCH points. I just made a little snippet of me heeling with him so you can see how I release and interact with him. He's been retired for nearly two years so he's not at the top of his game but it gives you the idea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eEGfS4bO6A&feature=youtu.be


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> The problem I see with rally is that at the earlier levels, there can be a lot of praise and encouragement.. Goldens eat that up. So in the rally ring, they can shine with all,of the praise. Then they get in straight up obedience and my dogs are confused. Why isn't mommy talking to me?


But that really isn't that much different than fun matches with green dogs. Trainers will be talking, praising, and in general acting a bit more loose than they would be in those fun matches close to the end. 

The fun matches I'm doing with Jacks now are very close to what the ring will be like. I have no food in my hands or pockets. I'm not doing anything I wouldn't do in the actual ring. 

It was a different story when he was a bit younger and needed more encouragement and play time in the ring - albeit a faux ring. 

The difference between rally and a fun match though is you have that added pressure on the trainer. That's where I think getting out into the rally ring and the BN ring helps people out.

There are definitely people who have problems transitioning, but I honestly think that has more to do with whether they are putting the formal obedience class time in.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> What do you all use for the variable reinforcement? My trainer talked some about a "wow" treat method.. Do you use that?


I've just started training with a wow treat method and this is what I was taught. I have a small tupperware type container of liverwurst and a baby spoon. I open the lid just a little and let the dog sniff the special treat. I ask, "Do you want your special"? I get Jonah amped up about this and ask him to heel. Once he gives me a nice attention and a few steps we run over to the special container and I scoop the tiniest bit of liverwurst on the baby spoon and feed it to Jonah. That feeding him is giving the extra attention and reward for giving me the heeling I asked for.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Thanks for all the ideas and thoughts and video! I'm thinking I will try to do the BN. Im going to try get both of us amped and really buckle down and practice and get back to class. I didn't realize that the heel on the BN course was with signs. So you can't say heel to start at all,or is just during the heeling exercise itself that you can't talk?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You can say heel to start and after the halt


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

A couple of things I found helpful:
1) Watching videos of actual BN competition. Janice Gunn has one of her competing with her black lab Louie(?) and the AKC has one intended for judges and there are lots of not so good ones. To find them Google something like "videos of beginner novice competition".
2) Read through the AKC rules for BN a couple of times to familiarize yourself with them. There are some differences from Novice - for instance you can use a second call on the recall if the dog doesn't respond on the first without NQing.


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## MaureenM (Sep 20, 2011)

Really enjoyed this thread, lots of good information for us beginners. Was wondering where you go for the monthly Show n Go? I'm in Delaware also, and am interested in going, even if just to watch at this point


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I live in Dover and have a trainer here but I go up to Newark for the show n go, they are monthly at academy of dog training,or also called browns as owner is Don Brown. They are very nice and really help you out, Mr. brown really helped me on my run. Wilm kennel club has them a few times a year, they are also a good place to go.


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## MaureenM (Sep 20, 2011)

Thank you! We are in Georgetown, and go to training in Dover as well. I think I've seen the acadamy of dogs website, and remember wishing itwasn't so far (Wilmington's too). I'm going to look at it again, still thinking I might try the monthly show and go despite the drive. Good luck to you!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

MaureenM said:


> Thank you! We are in Georgetown, and go to training in Dover as well. I think I've seen the acadamy of dogs website, and remember wishing itwasn't so far (Wilmington's too). I'm going to look at it again, still thinking I might try the monthly show and go despite the drive. Good luck to you!


I PMed you


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I would like to chime in here. Sorry if I am a little late. I am no expert but I am preparing two dogs for the novice ring, they are polar opposites. Gabby is all work and Teddi, well...she is Teddi. Teddi has little drive and other than people not much "excites" her. She loves food but finding exciting treats has been a challenge. Little to no toy drive. 

I thought about trying her in beginner novice but the truth is I don't know I could go on to novice after. I don't honestly know I can maintain show attitude. She's got the moves it's just going to depend on which Teddi shows up. Teddi cant jump so CD will be her limit. I also know I can't put two days or two classes back to back. 

What I have learned which has made a HUGE difference in her motivation, and it's something Bridget Carlsen is big on....bring them hungry!!!! OMG it was like night and day. I stumbled on it when I no longer had time to feed the dogs before class. Suddenly Teddi was participating!! And improving!!!! When I trial her in a couple weeks, she will not be getting her breakfast. Also I found she likes real food treats best. I buy the cheapest block of Colby jack cheese I can find and cut into small pieces. I also don't object to that in my mouth. Couple weeks ago my trainer showed me Tyson grilled and ready chicken. It's frozen. It's REALLY garlicky, Teddi LOVES it. I plan to get it on my hands before we go in the ring she should focus better that way. 

Lastly another Bridget Carlsen thing, though a LOT of trainers do it I am sure......jackpotting. Teddi now knows when she does great she gets an extra special treat. In her case frozen Bil Jac. It keeps her up, her attitude and her willingness to continue to train. It has also taught her the treats aren't always on me. 

Not too long ago Teddi had a private not sharing training time with my other dog. She worked the entire 90 minutes! When we started we were lucky to get 15. I would try hungry, and go from there. Beginner novice is great and I wish I could do it. I just don't know if my dog has very many runs in her. She is not a fan of repetition. Take the time to figure out what works best for your dog. Listen and they will tell you. 

I have also decided to stick to one day a trial see if we can qualify that way. No 200 scores from Teddi we just want the green ribbon. 

Good luck!!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Not too late at all. Still contemplating it. We are going to try a new trainer (I love the old one but schedule works better for the new one) and this is a Rally class. She will also help me fine tune some things (greeting people and dogs) to get her CGC. I will try to take her hungry, but hopefully new place, new trainer and not being so late at night she will be better. I have been working with her at home. Trying to be upbeat and silly. She's doing a bit better. She actually ran to me for the recall a few times! When I train her tonight think I'm going to bring out the toy as her jackpot. She loves toys! 
Thanks for your suggestions! Glad to hear I'm not the only one with a dog not so upbeat.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

A new trainer can help a lot. I have a dog who I ran in agility who had an "eeyore" complex. I took her to a new trainer and the first thing she said was "oh we can fix that!" and she did. Had a wonderful career as an agility dog. 

I think the hardest part about Teddi is figuring out what makes her tick. Taking the time to not pressure her. I was about to give up on obedience with her. I didn't think she enjoyed it. Now she actually jumps in the car to go. Teddi never jumps in the car. Keep any at home training brief. Do 3 short sessions instead of 1 long one. Always finish happy and playing. Don't work for perfection. 

Teddi has her AKC and UKC rally titles. She actually did really well in rally. It's on leash (comfort) I could talk to her (comfort) she is a well trained dog just overly social and spoiled. She had a rough two years coming into this world. She's not a rescue but I call her my rescue as she would probably be dead if anyone else had her. Big vet bills. 

For me it has helped having my other dog. Her I can practice with 'til the cows come home. Not that i do, but i can. If your trainer has an older experienced dog you might ask once in a while if you can handle them to get the right feel. My young dog is amazing I am holding her back. Like I said polar opposites. 

Have fun! Where ever your journey takes you it's the path not the destination that matters. It's what you will remember. 


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