# Rally vs Obedience--Opinions? Experiences?



## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

What are your thoughts on the relative merits of rally and obedience. I ask for a couple of reasons. I am very happy to have finished my RE and be done for rally for awhile anyway. Despite being able to talk to Casey (babble at times it seems!) he never gives me the same attention as he does in obedience--not that he is perfect in obedience, but we manage to earn respectable scores (low 189-high 197.5) in obedience. Yesterday when I did 3 obedience runs and 1 rally, I realized how nice it was to complete the obedience without having to coax Casey the whole way around.

The people in rally who are very experienced in obedience do not need to do this, but a lot of the people who started in rally or are doing both and are new to both do. My obedience instructor is VERY happy that I am finished with rally for now. She thinks that because my attention is on the course/signs, my focus is not on my dog where it should be...and he takes that as permission to investigate a variety of items on the course. She believes that rally is not a good thing for "green" dogs. I must admit, that I enjoyed the obedience more--I certainly felt were functioning as a team.

I wonder too, if Casey works better because of the predicatibility of obedience--the routines for each level are very much the same. In rally, it looks and feels different everytime--except that offset figure 8--it is ALWAYS there in excellent!

Opinions or experiences anyone?


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## FlyingQuizini

I am of the opinion that if you want to do obedience - and you want attention and want to qualify with nice scores vs. just "getting it done" and qualifying with a 170, then you should train for obedience first and THEN use Rally as your warm up when your reg. obedience attention heelwork is the way you like it.

I've seen too many people go in and do rally (which is designed to let you get away with distracted heeling, lots of extra prompting, etc. from handler) and accept a distracted, phone-it-in style of heelwork on their dog that then makes traditional obedience very difficult.

I personally think it's best to over train for OBEDIENCE and then be able to over-achieve in RALLY.


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## FlyingQuizini

If you found your obed work was better than Rally, I wonder if it was all the "stuff" in the rally ring --- that your heelwork isn't proofed around that type of distraction? the first time Quiz did Rally, I think he saw all the white ring posts and thought, "Cool! Agility jump uprights!" He was REALLY SPUN the first time in the rally ring. I dunno... Or it could be handler attention issues... handler is busy reading signs. When I did rally, I walked the course ad naseum so that as I was in the ring, I just glanced at the sign and knew what it was. 99% of my attention was on my dog. Just tossing out ideas.


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## MurphyTeller

I think the other problem is that people hit the rally ring without a solid knowledge of the signs - the "know" the signs, but they aren't able to either memorize the course or to glance at the next sign at a distance and just "know" it.

I make my students flash cards - and I test them with the "real" signs at a distance. I want them to see the signs and not have to think. There's nothing worse than seeing the folks stop at a sign, disconnect from their dogs and then look at the sign trying to figure it out....

Erica


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## K9-Design

Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> What are your thoughts on the relative merits of rally and obedience. I ask for a couple of reasons. I am very happy to have finished my RE and be done for rally for awhile anyway. Despite being able to talk to Casey (babble at times it seems!) he never gives me the same attention as he does in obedience--not that he is perfect in obedience, but we manage to earn respectable scores (low 189-high 197.5) in obedience. Yesterday when I did 3 obedience runs and 1 rally, I realized how nice it was to complete the obedience without having to coax Casey the whole way around.
> 
> The people in rally who are very experienced in obedience do not need to do this, but a lot of the people who started in rally or are doing both and are new to both do. My obedience instructor is VERY happy that I am finished with rally for now. She thinks that because my attention is on the course/signs, my focus is not on my dog where it should be...and he takes that as permission to investigate a variety of items on the course. She believes that rally is not a good thing for "green" dogs. I must admit, that I enjoyed the obedience more--I certainly felt were functioning as a team.
> 
> Opinions or experiences anyone?


Agree agree agree.
I felt rally was detrimental to my performance in the "real" obedience ring, especially in heeling. Once I quit with rally I felt Fisher's heeling improved. In fact toward the end of our rally run I realized that if I just said "Fisher Heel!" and shut up for the rest of the course except for commands, Fisher did much much better. Of course then I had judges tell me that I *should* talk to my dog, even if scoring a perfect score on the course! Sheesh.
I did rally with Fish because it was a novelty. I won't do it with the puppy.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

_I think the other problem is that people hit the rally ring without a solid knowledge of the signs - the "know" the signs, but they aren't able to either memorize the course or to glance at the next sign at a distance and just "know" it._

I've done rally classes with Casey from novice to excellent (over a year and a half straight!) The obedience people who don't know the signs still ace the courses!

The CKC here in Canada (and I assume it is the same in US) developed rally as a link between the Canine Good Neighbour/Citizen programs, implying that it is a "pre obedience" program. I agree with Flying Quizini--if I had to do it again, I'd focus on the obedience first, then "over achieve" in rally! However, I enjoyed the rally, Casey was good in classes and I met amazing people, many beginners to dog sports like me, and now having similar issues with their dogs. I would like to try the RAE program in rally after we have made more progress in obedience (confident in open) just to see if it makes a difference. People who see us in obedience can't believe how awful we are in rally--however, we still qualify!


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## MaddieMagoo

In my opinion Rally is almost TOO easy for some. In Novice you should only be able to give 2 extra commands...Advanced 1 and Excellent NONE. Then some wonder why their dog does it in the Rally ring and not in obedience.

I am a BIG fan of Obedience, and Rally...I'll use it just to get my dog out there in the ring and see what needs to work on before we hit Obedience. Once we're done with our RE...I don't plan on ever returning. At least not with Maddie...with my other dogs in the future..possibly.

I think Rally needs to be tougher, because when it really comes down to it..a lot of dogs are no where near ready for obedience...even squeaking by with a 170...


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

I still struggle with why my pretty respectable obedience dog looks like such a mediocre entry in rally. Why does he dis me in the rally ring. We proof for distractions, he doesn't dis me in rally classes--he is a star. Why in trials? As much as I love rally, I am relieved that we have finished our RE.


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## DNL2448

MaddieMagoo said:


> In my opinion Rally is almost TOO easy for some. In Novice you should only be able to give 2 extra commands...Advanced 1 and Excellent NONE. Then some wonder why their dog does it in the Rally ring and not in obedience.
> 
> I am a BIG fan of Obedience, and Rally...I'll use it just to get my dog out there in the ring and see what needs to work on before we hit Obedience. Once we're done with our RE...I don't plan on ever returning. At least not with Maddie...with my other dogs in the future..possibly.
> 
> I think Rally needs to be tougher, because when it really comes down to it..a lot of dogs are no where near ready for obedience...even squeaking by with a 170...


See this was what I was thinking. As Dooley has never been in a show ring I thought I could try a couple Rally shows just to get him in the ring. But it makes sense that it could diminish their obedience skills. Hum, I thought I had the answer, now I have to set back and think about it again.


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## kgiff

I'm using Rally as an easy way to get ring experience on my young dog. He's been out and trialing since he was 9 months old. I'm hoping to get his RA this fall/winter, but then we'll probably put Rally on the back burner until he's much older and is retired from other activities. 

He's the first dog I've really worked obedience with and his healing is getting better and better. I don't work rally exercises often. I work the skills needed for rally in addition to regular obedience on a pretty regular basis. I may practice one or two times with the signs before a show (we're going to a match tomorrow and last time we worked with signs was May?)

We've gained a lot of confidence being out in the ring and being able to talk so much has helped him become more confident.


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## gabbys mom

I like rally as an intro for young dogs. But it really depends on your approach to it, how you handle it, etc...

As for why some dogs do better in one vs the other...I think a lot of it has to do with the handler...there's just a lot going on, handlers have a lot to focus on- course memorization etc.


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## AmberSunrise

I too am using the Rally ring as a stepping stone to obedience. When I first began obedience (okay back in the 80's), there were matches all over that could be used to get your dog ready for the ring. Now, these matches are not so prevalent and so I find the Rally ring a fun way to gain ring experence. My first obedience dog NQ'd exactly once in his show career but boy did those NQ's pile up at the matches.

Without Rally or matches, my next 2 dogs got to teach me many lessons in gracefully failing, humility and making generous donations to the show giving clubs 

You do not have to prep talk your dog throughout the course, but can save any verbals or encouragement for when your partner might need it. And if you go in with the attitude that it is for ring exposure, and don't care about your score or what the audience might think, I think it can be a valuable learning experience - just think; the heeling in the obedience ring is usually much easier than the Rally courses 

Oh, and I train for obedience but show in rally if that makes sense.


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## katieanddusty

It seems like you'd just need to hold your dog to the same standards in Rally that they have in the obedience ring, rather than competing in Rally when your dog is rehearsing mistakes that might not NQ you in Rally but will NQ you in obedience. If your dog repeatedly isn't performing at a level that would be expected in obedience, then you probably shouldn't be competing in Rally as the dog is learning that the standards are different in a competition environment than in practice. 

It's like the people who get through Novice and Open agility with a dog that's never hit the weave pole entry the first time through, but they can still qualify with that in the lower levels. Then they get to Excellent and are all upset that they never Q (plus they might have a problem that's pretty hard to get rid of now that the dog has been rewarded so many times for missing the entry in a trial environment). Train to Excellent standards from the beginning and then use Novice/Open to focus more on testing your dog's training, without having to put all your effort into your own handling.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

_ *Quote:* "It seems like you'd just need to hold your dog to the same standards in Rally that they have in the obedience ring, rather than competing in Rally when your dog is rehearsing mistakes that might not NQ you in Rally but will NQ you in obedience. If your dog repeatedly isn't performing at a level that would be expected in obedience, then you probably shouldn't be competing in Rally as the dog is learning that the standards are different in a competition environment than in practice."

_My problem is that Casey is great in rally class and at practice matches. It is at trials that he dis's me! He does not do that, at least to the same extent, in obedience trials...that mystifies me! If anything, I am less nervous in rally! I know the signs and have done classes forever! He DOES pass, but I am not happy with the passes--almost all scores are 87-89. Short of asking to be excused during a rally match (and I almost have a few times!) how do you "hold him to the same standards" as in obedience? If he does not behave this way during practice, how do you correct in a setting where you cannot correct? If he was like that in class/practice matches, we would NOT be in trials. My obedience coach and I proofed like crazy for this over the summer...heeling through a wide variety of food, balls, spinning mechanical mice, other dogs etc. He was excellent...this is a game and I will win!! My coach is VERY experienced, and was pulling her hair out with Casey. He was too good in training, so could not be corrected. How to make him think this "distraction game" is going on in trials too?


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## Augie's Mom

As a newbie to dog sports, I have found that Rally has been great at developing both my and Augie's confidence. It has provided a less intimidating entry into obedience.

I think that like anything else, it is what you choose to make of it. If you want perfection you can strive for that or if not you don't.


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## Loisiana

I personally do not enjoy rally. I put Excellent titles on both of my goldens and an Advanced title on my Lhasa Apso, but everytime I showed I wished I wasn't entered. I don't feel the same connection to my dogs in rally as I do in obedience, and I'm not as good of a handler. I'm also probably the only person ever to go High In Trial in obedience and NQ in rally with the same dog on the same day! Not sure if I'll ever do rally with my puppy.

Jodie
AJ's Maiden By the Sea CDX RE (Annabel)
Mud E Paws UD RE OBHF (Conner)
Sunfire's Flying Head Over Heels (Flip)


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## DNL2448

Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> My problem is that Casey is great in rally class and at practice matches. It is at trials that he dis's me! He does not do that, at least to the same extent, in obedience trials...that mystifies me! If anything, I am less nervous in rally! I know the signs and have done classes forever! He DOES pass, but I am not happy with the passes--almost all scores are 87-89. Short of asking to be excused during a rally match (and I almost have a few times!) how do you "hold him to the same standards" as in obedience? If he does not behave this way during practice, how do you correct in a setting where you cannot correct? If he was like that in class/practice matches, we would NOT be in trials. My obedience coach and I proofed like crazy for this over the summer...heeling through a wide variety of food, balls, spinning mechanical mice, other dogs etc. He was excellent...this is a game and I will win!! My coach is VERY experienced, and was pulling her hair out with Casey. He was too good in training, so could not be corrected. How to make him think this "distraction game" is going on in trials too?


I learned from Terri Southard at a seminar a couple weeks ago something that really makes sense. Go to as many fun matches as you can and treat them like a show. However you would let Casey get away with the small things (making him think it was a real show) but correct if he makes a big mistake. Kinda like a gotcha moment. She also suggested that you enter as many times as you can so you can do the first one for correction and the second one for fun. That really stood out at the seminar, made a lot of sense to me. Hope it does for you too. :crossfing


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

I am just happy to have a long string of obedience fun matches ahead of me, and no more rally "dis the miss" nights!


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## goldengirls550

First off, even though I have put several Rally titles on the dogs (more in progress), I really don't care for rally. This is jmo and I realize that many people love rally and that's perfectly fine with me.

My heart belongs to obedience.  Sadly, I knew that Aubrie would never make it as an obedience dog (and Layla was a puppy and showing much promise), so after Aubrie's CD and U-CD I started Rally as something different to do. Aubrie has made it through an RE, and yes, I have decided to go ahead with the "nothing more than a $400 title". I only do this because Aubrie LOVES Rally and she enjoys tagging along with us to shows. I do realize that I talk and encourage Aubrie more than I would ANY obedience prospect on the course, but I have come to realize that our goals are DIFFERENT. I really have no plans to train for Open (busy enough with Layla and up-coming Cruise in conformation).

Layla is a different story. I honestly swore I was not ever gonna do Rally with her. Maybe when she got older as just something fun to do. I took Layla through a CDX, but something had changed in the ring. Layla was developing ring stress (and this was making me nervous!). Her happy attitude, and as a result, cute heeling, were suffering in the ring. I worked and worked and worked her (locations, mixing it up, etc). The one thing I noticed that helps Layla most is keeping her in a ring. After the CDX, I decided to use Rally as TRAINING with her. I will talk as little as possible, but give her some encouraging words every once in awhile and praise when she does something great so I can keep her "up". So far, it has worked. Like Steph mentioned, Rally is a great warm-up for obedience trained dogs! I have plans to put Layla in Grad Open (and hopefully Utility) after several weekends of Rally.

Really, I think that in order to take a stand on either side of the Rally vs. Obedience debate, you need to know your goals and priorities. If your goal is a high-scoring dog and being competitive in Open and Utility, then I would use Rally as training, treating the heeling and exercises as you would in traditional obedience. If you "baby" the dog too much in Rally and stick him or her in a Novice (or higher) obedience ring, it's gonna shock them when mom (or dad) is no longer talking and praising.

Regardless, I think Rally exhibitors should keep chatter to a minimum. I have seen handlers that don't shut up the ENTIRE course. I just think, who are they helping, themselves or their dogs? :doh: I think it demonstrates much better teamwork when the handler doesn't have to beg and baby the dog to do everything.


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## glddog04

I havent done rally, howevr could it be he finds the "chatter" more distracting then encouraging? I see this in agility sometimes...
glddogo4


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## goldengirls550

I find that the chatter can be VERY distracting to the dog. Plus, I have seen handlers turn their dogs off with all of the chatter. Let's face it: hopefully your dog doesn't need a command to do a left or right turn (I have seen a couple of people give commands/talk every chance they get). I mean really? lol.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

glddog04 said:


> I havent done rally, howevr could it be he finds the "chatter" more distracting then encouraging? I see this in agility sometimes...
> glddogo4[/QUOT
> 
> That is possibly the case...it almost becomes "nagging" after awhile and he tunes it out.


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## Kohanagold

It's late, so I'm going to type out my response and come back tomorrow and read what everyone else has wrote.

There are a few things about rally that frustrate me. Dont get me wrong, I love it, and have a great time with my dog doing it, but there is a general feeling that rally is "easy" and regular obedience is "harder". I dont feel that way, but it certainly could depend on the rally course you're given. I enjoy rally because it gives my dog and I some great new heeling patterns that she's not used to. I have always found that the same old thing over and over bores the dog (I see it a lot in people that are training JUST novice exercises, and then want to get their CD, and THEN train the open stuff). I think it mixes things up a bit for both myself and the dog, and since I'm not the least bit creative, it does the creativity for me, and I am then teaching my dog new things without having to think up new things.

The 2nd thing I have found, just watching others compete, is that a TON of people dont train their dogs to heel. The rules (for CKC, anyhow) state that the dog is to heel from one station to the next. Its not quite as evident in Novice (on lead) as it is in Open or Excellent, but I cringe at the sloppy heeling. I dont think its a venue difference so much as the dog has never been made to understand that its Rally OBEDIENCE, and that wandering around the ring isn't the idea. I dont think its the sport's fault, because I have seen some dogs that do a very nice job, but I think that people are so concentrated on the signs and how to perform them, they forget to teach the dog to heel. Or, the dog fully understands how to heel, but nowhere, through the entire course is the dog ever told "Dog, Heel" (probably because the handler is busy worrying about the signs). Or, as is the case in many sports, people are in too much of a hurry to trial.

I really enjoy the Rally, especially with Sydney. If not for the long sit or down, I could easily have a CDX on her... not for lack of training, but during her final trial to get her CD, she was straddled by another dog during the long down. It is far too stressful for her to be in a ring, with strange dogs, mom nowhere in sight and wondering if the dog beside her is going to get up and push themselves on her. It makes me sad to think my dog was essentially ruined as an "obedience dog" because of another dogs lack of training. Rally gives her the opportunity to get back out there without stressing about that happening again. 

Do I think rally is detrimental to training? No. I think its another way to proof and another opportunity to teach. I really believe in the idea of "dont complain, train", which basically means, rather than making excuses for the dog not doing something (somebody walked the door at just the wrong time, a bird flew into the ring, there was a loud bang outside the ring, people were talking, a child ran past the gate, etc), proof them and teach them what is expected. 

I dont know if that's really what you were looking for or not, and I'm sorry for the bit of a tangeant there, but that's my feelings on the subject. BJ


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## K9-Design

Kohanagold said:


> I really enjoy the Rally, especially with Sydney. If not for the long sit or down, I could easily have a CDX on her... not for lack of training, but during her final trial to get her CD, *she was straddled by another dog during the long down. It is far too stressful for her to be in a ring, with strange dogs, mom nowhere in sight and wondering if the dog beside her is going to get up and push themselves on her. *It makes me sad to think my dog was essentially ruined as an "obedience dog" because of another dogs lack of training. Rally gives her the opportunity to get back out there without stressing about that happening again.
> 
> Do I think rally is detrimental to training? No. I think its another way to proof and another opportunity to teach. *I really believe in the idea of "dont complain, train", which basically means, rather than making excuses for the dog not doing something (somebody walked the door at just the wrong time, a bird flew into the ring, there was a loud bang outside the ring, people were talking, a child ran past the gate, etc), proof them and teach them what is expected.*


Ahem.......





I am very curious about this. I hear this common story ALL THE TIME.
WHY did the dog perceive this incident as life threatening? Was she attacked or physically harmed? Why did such a thing terrify her? WHY did she then generalize it to the whole "stay" exercise?
This makes NO sense.
Now trust me I am very sensitive to stay issues -- I literally quit trying with my first golden because he was terrified to do stays. But it was due to oh, months, of really bad training courtesy of my instructor and my naive 14 year old self -- if you want to know how to systematically develop a paranoia about group stays just ask me :-(
Out of site/group stays are hard for a LOT of dogs -- I would hate to see you wash away your dog's obedience potential when it very likely is a natural development of a stay issue that YOU are blaming on one harmless incident that the dog doesn't remember at all. As you said : TRAIN, DON'T COMPLAIN.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

K9-Design said:


> WHY did she then generalize it to the whole "stay" exercise?
> This makes NO sense.
> 
> This happened to Casey and I very recently and is in fact a thread here (Long Down, Oh No!)
> I think that dogs are *very situational*. Since Casey's "assault" he has had problems with the long down at almost the same time into it as it originally happened. He is fine on the out of site sit. He is better at our training hall, where he has always felt safe. I think he will need a lot of positive experiences with nothing out of the ordinary happening and treats after to get back to where we started. I do think that such experiences CAN ruin good obedience dogs. They trust us to leave them alone, and then they are left unprotected without us there. If something does happen, I am not surprised that they are reluctant to let us leave again. Casey is a really easy going dog, who often started to doze off during downs. I think he was incredibly startled when he was accosted--it wasn't even the dog next to him! I am counting on his easy going, trusting nature to help us to train past this issue. I too feel very strongly that dogs who are not ready for OOS stays are not left by their owners. In my case, the owner was a very experienced trainer who had already witnessed her dog doing this earlier in the afternoon to another dog. She should have known better. It could have been any of the dogs. Unfortunately it was my big guy.


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## Ljilly28

I just came home from doing both obedience and Rally at an AKC show today(1st place obedience and high scoring novice dog from A&B, 2nd place Rally(99, but 2 seconds slower than the aussie- oops). Tally and I breath a sigh of relief to get in the Rally ring and have a blast in contrast to the obedience ring which is serious business. Tally is a very honest,flashy working dog, and it's me who lets him down in obedience by slipping up and moving my head while giving the recall command or some such thing. In Rally, since Tally, Tango, and Finn's number one strength is attention heeling, it is more effortless and flowing. I do know what you mean about those people who chat and cajole their dogs all around and it is embarrassing. Still, I like that much better than the obedience people I see out in the parking lot whaling on a choke collars with twenty corrections in a row before heading to the ring. To me, Rally is play and obedience is work- doing some of both makes for balance in the day. However, I'm still very new to obedience, so maybe I'll change my mind as time goes on???


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

I guess I have never considered Rally to be "play", as I work harder in the rally ring to get Casey's attention there. I often emerge from the rally ring feeling totally exhausted! I find the training during classes to be enormous fun, but Casey focuses there. At trials, it seems as if he starts to ignore me the minute we enter the ring. This does not happen at obedience trials, hence I enjoy them more. So I guess I enjoy training for rally more, but enjoy competing in obedience more.
I do agree that rally exercises are wonderful ways to add variety to obedience training. I think I have an obedience dog who seldom anticipates because of rally. He doesn't do automatic finishes or drops on recall because he is never sure of what I will ask for...right finish, left finish, halt, go?
With my next dog, I will use rally exercises when training, but avoid classes and trials in rally until the dog is more solid in obedience and older than I started rally with Casey.


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## Loisiana

Ljilly28 said:


> Tally and I breath a sigh of relief to get in the Rally ring and have a blast in contrast to the obedience ring which is serious business.


I think each sport is what you make it. I find regular obedience a blast. I love heeling, and I feel my dogs have great attention heeling. That attention, however, goes both ways. While my dogs have their eyes glued to mine, I am looking at them out of the corner of my eye and with a smile on my face for them. All of my focus is on them, with the back of my mind listening for the judge calling the pattern. In rally, however, I have to relinquish so much of that attention that I usually give the dogs in order to look out for the signs. 

My dog and I are big goofballs between exercises in obedience. While some people think of the length of time during an exercise that they can't praise the dog as stressful, I find that it can help build excitement and anticipation in the dog, leading to such a happy, thrilling release and set up for the next exercise. Of course, you have to train for this, it does not just occur naturally.

Jodie


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## Ljilly28

We have so much more experience with Rally, that I feel safer there. Tally is that awesome dog who has fun all the time, and is the best partner. I can't wait to be more experienced so I can live up to him. Thank goodness his attention heeling is so strong, bc he makes up for me and my small mistakes of form/procedure that are essential in formal obedience but free form in Rally. Once you know the R signs by heart and walk the course to memorize it, you don't really need to take much attention away from the dog. Loisiana, you sound like a great trainer.


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## FlyingQuizini

K9-Design said:


> I would hate to see you wash away your dog's obedience potential when it very likely is a natural development of a stay issue that YOU are blaming on one harmless incident that the dog doesn't remember at all. As you said : TRAIN, DON'T COMPLAIN.


Seems to me that whether or not the incident was "harmless" is based on the dog's take on it, not yours. We never know for sure what a dog is thinking, but single event learning is real, and for some dogs, it seems absolutely possible that a bad experience in the ring ("bad" being their definition, not mine) could absolutely "jinx" the dog for that exercise since the set up is always the same. ** Line up of dogs + mom out of sight = my personal space is invaded in a way that makes me uncomfortable... No way. I'm outta here.... or fine, I'll stay, but I'll be super stressed, etc. **

Now, that doesn't mean that it's not a FIXABLE issue, but I think it's accurate to say that for many dogs, it's a true, valid issue.


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## FlyingQuizini

*The 2nd thing I have found, just watching others compete, is that a TON of people dont train their dogs to heel.*

IMO, that's why many say Rally is easier - b/c you can "get away with" sloppy heeling - especially at the Novice level. You can't do that as much in Obedience b/c even in Novice, you still have a portion of off lead heeling.


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## K9-Design

FlyingQuizini said:


> Seems to me that whether or not the incident was "harmless" is based on the dog's take on it, not yours. We never know for sure what a dog is thinking, but single event learning is real, and for some dogs, it seems absolutely possible that a bad experience in the ring ("bad" being their definition, not mine) could absolutely "jinx" the dog for that exercise since the set up is always the same. ** Line up of dogs + mom out of sight = my personal space is invaded in a way that makes me uncomfortable... No way. I'm outta here.... or fine, I'll stay, but I'll be super stressed, etc. **
> 
> Now, that doesn't mean that it's not a FIXABLE issue, but I think it's accurate to say that for many dogs, it's a true, valid issue.



That is a good point. I would want to understand WHY a dog found the incident that did not physically harm them that traumatizing. Yes, a dog can be threatening and not actually cause harm, but a dog getting "straddled"?? Is that a nice way of saying humped or did the poster mean the dog just stood over her dog? Does her dog have some history of sensitivity with other dogs? Is she defensive herself, aggressive, uber-submissive?? I mean, what would cause that to be such a life altering experience. If someone trips and accidentally falls next to me in the grocery store, I'm not going to be afraid of grocery stores for the rest of my life.

The potential of dog fights in the group stays I take very seriously so I am sensitive to this -- but this was not a dog fight. And really, I'm not saying there is no problem present or that the owner is making it up, but if a dog is that traumatized by a seemingly harmless incident, there's some deeper-lying problems than being a little weird with group stays. And again -- train don't complain -- I think it'd be a shame to wash out a dog after novice for something that could quite possibly be trained out rather quickly.

I wonder what the dog does to exhibit stress now? Follow mom? Get up halfway through? Lay down? Pant? Get up before the owner can even leave? What has the owner done?

I feel so bad for my first golden -- he got to the point that if I even sat him next to another dog he would panic and bolt away. That is just the worst for any dog. I saw this a few weekends ago with a friend's dog when she was setting him up for go-outs -- she had been complaining of go-out problems, well, the poor dog couldn't even handle setting up for go outs. :-(


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

K9-Design said:


> I would want to understand WHY a dog found the incident that did not physically harm them that traumatizing. Yes, a dog can be threatening and not actually cause harm, but a dog getting "straddled"?? Is that a nice way of saying humped or did the poster mean the dog just stood over her dog? Does her dog have some history of sensitivity with other dogs? Is she defensive herself, aggressive, uber-submissive?? I mean, what would cause that to be such a life altering experience.
> I. :-(



Casey was jumped on when he was in a vulnerable position (a down) and humped by an intact male (Casey is also a male, neutered). His normal posture during a down is VERY relaxed. He is the most easy going, friendly dog I have ever had, with both dogs and people. He is SO not neurotic in any way. He had never broken either an in sight or out of sight down prior to this incident. He is not freaking (outwardly) now, but obviously prefers if I stay in the room. Even when he does not break the downs to follow me out, he spends the 3 minutes looking for me and looking around him at the other dogs. Before this he would often recline with eyes closed. Obviously something changed quite suddenly. He is still fine on the sit stay-it is only the down.
Growing up in a small town, I was never afraid of walking alone at night. After I was followed too closely one night by a creepy guy who never did anything other than follow too close and make weird sounds, I never felt the same comfort level at night before. At the risk of comparing canine psychology to human psychology, it doesn't seem like such a stretch to me that maybe after being leaped on when in that position, that he might not be so relaxed or willing to be left alone the next time _I put him in exactly the same position._ Maybe for dogs, as well as people, the harm doesn't need to be physical.


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## Kohanagold

K9-Design said:


> Yes, a dog can be threatening and not actually cause harm, but a dog getting "straddled"?? Is that a nice way of saying humped or did the poster mean the dog just stood over her dog? Does her dog have some history of sensitivity with other dogs? Is she defensive herself, aggressive, uber-submissive??


I guess I should clarify. They were in the down, the dog twice Sydney's size got up, walked over to her and literally stood over her. Nobody moved (it was as though they were waiting to see what he'd do) until the judge went over. Just as the judge walked over, she yelped, snapped at him and ran off (I was able to get her to come to me quite easily though). The owner felt bad, yes, but not bad enough to not enter the dog the next weekend in another trial in the area where he did the same thing. Simply by his size, there was intimidation, but by standing over her, I think, he was trying to dominate her or claim her and that's, no matter how you look at it, not fair to her. You can see from my picture how far back everyone was, and its not as though he jumped up and raced to get over her like that before they could do anything. The lady with the lab on the other side was going to step in, but the judge told her not to, so the owner started walking to them. You can see the owner about 1/2 way and still no stewards or even the judge (to be fair, the judge was on the other side of the ring when this happened). But in the end, the title isn't worth having my dog stress... like Stephanie said, its either "I'm outta here" (if I'm out of sight) or "okay, I'll stay but be super stressed about it" (if I'm not out of sight). I guess I dont know the why or even really how to deal with it (since what we're doing hasn't fixed it), but I know the response. 



K9-Design said:


> And again -- train don't complain -- I think it'd be a shame to wash out a dog after novice for something that could quite possibly be trained out rather quickly.


This makes me wonder if I've really gone about this entirely wrong if it should have been trained out "quickly". I dont think by anyone's definition when it comes to training dogs, 3 yrs classifies as "quickly". At that point, I wasn't a member of an obedience club, but we continued to do stays again, right away, only perhaps I pushed too much, too fast. But, dont get me wrong. I'm in no way "complaining". I dont ever make "excuses" for why my dog NQed... EVER. If we're not ready, I simply dont enter. Q or not, we always have FUN, but the problem I have is that its not fun for her, so what's the point. Its not the training on our part that I worry about... its the lack thereof on some of the other dog's part. It would have been different if the dog broke and went back to his owner and not approached another dog, but that wasn't the case. Its no different really though than having a beautiful conformation dog that HATES it... Not just a "well that's not my favorite thing" but actually hates going in the ring or being touched all over by the judge. I simply have chosen not to enter her in a regular obedience trial. Perhaps if this was no longer an issue and I felt that she had been proofed to where I want her, I might try again, but really, what's the point? We have stuff we do together that we both enjoy. I'm okay with just having her CD and working more for the higher Rally titles. To be honest, she's *supposed* to be "retired", but then we decided to actually do a tracking test (that's her favorite sport, and becoming mine as well) and it seemed through that, our bond had changed and I decided that maybe this rally thing would be fun. With Paige, I have ever intention of getting her OTCH, but its unrealistic to expect that with Sydney... my goal for her now is more a RE or even an RAE and maybe a TDX (if we ever get into a test, which is very hard here).



K9-Design said:


> I wonder what the dog does to exhibit stress now? Follow mom? Get up halfway through? Lay down? Pant? Get up before the owner can even leave? What has the owner done?


It goes kindof like this. Set her up (she's okay). Tell her stay (she looks around but will remain in place). I walk to the other side of the room (as long as there are dogs she knows on either side, she will yawn several times but provided that I dont go out of sight, she will stay where I put her). IF there is a dog she doesn't know that is roughly as big as she is or bigger, she tends to watch the dog from the corner of her eye but keeps her head in a position that if she were looking straight ahead, she'd be looking at me, but I can generally see the whites of her eyes. Small dogs she tends to ignore and will do the yawn thing (maybe 3 or 4 in a 1 minute stay). I've now learned enough to not push her and go out of sight, but before I really clued in, if I went out of sight, she'd get up to follow me. The "weird" thing is that she is very full of herself and not a timid dog at all. I've had a friend take her back and tell her "stay" but sometimes she starts drooling. She's never been a ball of stress and things bounce off her pretty good (to be honest, I'm surprised she stayed in position with the Newf over her, because she tends to be quite outgoing). But as for what it was or why, I dont know... and she is really quite dominant but I do think she feels very insecure at that moment. I can put her and Paige in a stay, and go out of sight and come back and she's fine though too. Perhaps I'm shortchanging her. Its not that we dont practice stays with a lineup of dogs... we do it quite regularly with our obedience club and for the most part she is improving, but I'm just not sure that its something that we will improve enough to be ready for the open ring is all, and unless I'm very confident in her ability to stay, I wont put her in a ring and jeopridize the other dogs and anymore, if my dog has NQed by that point, I'd simply not show up for the group stuff. I know you're not supposed to do that, but I would.

Sorry for the novel, but that's basically where we're at. BJ


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

Hi Kohanagold,

I can totally see where you are coming from. The Newf WAS trying to dominate her when she was in a submissive position (a down). She must have been thinking, after all of your training, "That's not supposed to happen!" She was trying to be a good girl and stay in place. I'd like to say that it is hard to believe somebody would put a dog like that back in group stays after they'd broken the stay to make such a statement, but that is what happened to Casey too. The lady (an experienced obedience person) put him in the open stays *after he'd already jumped and humped another dog in the novice stays.* I felt like she thought she had to ruin two dogs in one day! Next time I will know better (although, with luck it will not happen again). I have a really long fuse, and hardly ever get angry with people (accidents can happen, they didn't mean it etc.) In this case, I am NOT HAPPY! Before this, when people talked about getting rid of out of sight stays, I really had no opinion. MY dog was fine. I see now that it can be a really dangerous/intimidating situation to put your dog into. They TRUST that they will be fine until you come back, and you can't always guarantee that. (At least you hadn't left her all alone. I felt terrible!)


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## Kohanagold

Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> Hi Kohanagold,
> 
> I can totally see where you are coming from. The Newf WAS trying to dominate her when she was in a submissive position (a down). She must have been thinking, after all of your training, "That's not supposed to happen!" She was trying to be a good girl and stay in place. I'd like to say that it is hard to believe somebody would put a dog like that back in group stays after they'd broken the stay to make such a statement, but that is what happened to Casey too. The lady (an experienced obedience person) put him in the open stays *after he'd already jumped and humped another dog in the novice stays.* I felt like she thought she had to ruin two dogs in one day! Next time I will know better (although, with luck it will not happen again). I have a really long fuse, and hardly ever get angry with people (accidents can happen, they didn't mean it etc.) In this case, I am NOT HAPPY! Before this, when people talked about getting rid of out of sight stays, I really had no opinion. MY dog was fine. I see now that it can be a really dangerous/intimidating situation to put your dog into. They TRUST that they will be fine until you come back, and you can't always guarantee that. (At least you hadn't left her all alone. I felt terrible!)


Liz, that's EXACTLY!! I'm exactly that same way and usually take it all in stride. Sydney was my first obedience dog and this was her novice title. Soooo, we were very inexperienced and like you, I seldom get upset. NQs dont bother me (there is always something to be learned). If she doesn't do it today, I always know there's tomorrow. I want an effort and everything else takes care of itself. So when the owner appologized, I kind of felt bad for her (how would I feel if that were MY dog that broke and somebody bit my head off... they're dogs and sometimes they do things that make us scratch our heads). But then I learned that she still put her dog in a week later and it did the same thing to another dog... I would normally be okay with it and move on (and we have... to rally) but, like you, before that, I didn't have an opinion on the group exercises. I thought "my dog is good at it" and it was easy points for us. While I'm not dead set against them (I think a stay is a very important obedience exercise), I do think about if there is a "better" way (an honor or something maybe). Years ago they used to have a LOT more dogs in the ring at once and very seldom was there a problem, but I also dont think people were in as much of a hurry as they are now to compete and often times they're focused on the title and that's all they care about. 

I'm sorry that you've had a similar experience with Casey and I think its unfortunate that this is all too common. BJ


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