# Vet: Don't feed grain free



## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Here's my experience.

Chance switched over to grain-free in the latter part of 2010. Before that, he was prone to itchy ears, itchy pads (occasionally) and hot spots. Her loves bread which I would sometimes use as a high-value treat doing rally and agility. Together with my vet, noticed a possible connection between the bread and skin/ear irritations.

Stopped the bread completely and changed to a grain-free diet. It was like magic happened. His itchy ears and pads are a thing of the past. I believe he was just beyond his tolerance threshold for grains. He still has the occasional piece of bread or treat. But it's not enough to tip the scales and he is able to process it now just fine.

I don't think grain-free is necessarily right or wrong for all dogs in general. Food is such an individual thing. I tried several recommended brands and know each dog's reaction can be slightly different. But for some dogs, grain free definitely works.

Good luck !


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Grain free is not necessarily carbohydrate free. Potatoes, legumes and a lot of other carbs are not grains. Peas are high in carbs as are a few other veggies.

I just looked at my Fromm's grain free ingredient list and among other ingredients are potatoes, sweet potatoes and peas. Non-gluten carbs but carbs 

I don't think I would give much credence to a vet's advice who has demonstrated so little nutritional knowledge. She may be great at other things but as mentioned, grain free is not carbohydrate free.

ETA: Full disclosure : I feed primarily raw and I VitaMix greens and veggies to go with my dogs' meat mixture. My vets are usually amazed at how great my dogs look and their health. I use Fromm's a few times a week since my girl needs to be able to digest kibble when at her co-owners.So my dogs get substantially fewer carbohydrates than even grain free foods would provide as a steady diet and they truly do well.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I think that there is no one diet good for all dogs. My guys do well on the merrick grain free foods, but that does contain sweet potato.
My previous golden didn't do well with foods containing corn or wheat or rice-she would get ear infections. She did great on Wellness brand dog food that contained barley. I have celiac disease (so I take a bit of dislike at the term "fad" being used with the gluten free diet!) so I switched them off of the Wellness brands for my own health.

I think whichever food your dog does best on is the best food for your dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Dogs are, in fact, omnivores. They have evolved from wolves, the key word there being EVOLVED, and they have 32 genes that wolves don't have....of which 29 (I think I have the numbers right) are specifically for digesting carbohydrates. Carbs are a perfectly legitimate food for dogs. 
When my Toby was diagnosed with IBD and we put him on a grain free diet, I asked the specialist if I should put my other dogs on grain free. He chuckled and said, "if your neighbor was diagnosed with diabetes, would you give up sugar??". Enough said.
Be that as it may, I totally agree that there are some dogs for whom specific grains cause a problem. There are other dogs who can eat pretty much anything. No one food is right for all dogs, and as others have said you need to feed your dogs whatever they do best on.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Care54A said:


> I saw a new vet today...she said that dogs really shouldn't eat grain free diets because they are omnivores and need the carbs.


I'm with Sunrise on this one. Grain free is not the same as carb free. The fact that your vet would say this makes me question her nutritional expertise. 

I bet if you look at the ingredients of TOTW, you'll find plenty of carbs.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> When my Toby was diagnosed with IBD and we put him on a grain free diet, I asked the specialist if I should put my other dogs on grain free. He chuckled and said, "if your neighbor was diagnosed with diabetes, would you give up sugar??". Enough said.


Actually, you would do well to give up sugar whether you have diabetes or not. Just because you tolerate it better than your neighbor doesn't mean it's good for you.

Same with dogs and grains. Dogs would do well to not be fed grains that they wouldn't eat in the wild. Dogs eat some grass, fruits and veggies. They don't eat corn or cereal grains. Most grains are high in sugar and low in nutritional value, especially cereal grains, which are common in commercial dog foods. Cereal grains can be some of the most problematic ingredients in commercial dog food, in fact. Even if your dog tolerates grains, the grains in commercial dog foods can conceal hidden contaminants. After grains are harvested, they must be stored. And the longer the storage period, the greater the risk of contamination by one or more nasty pollutants, including hidden mold. What’s worse, many dog food companies are famous for using the cheapest grains they can find — rejects and by-products of the human food industry -- Cereal grain leftovers classified as “unfit for human consumption”.

So, yeah, because your neighbor has diabetes, you should give up sugar. And grains aren't good for your dog, even if he tolerates them.

/soapbox


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

We moved to grain-free TOTW when Charlie was having seizures, one of many steps we took to remove possible triggers. To keep things simple, I moved all of my dogs to the same food. All were healthier in the months that followed.

Literature says that few dogs are allergic to corn and that corn allergies don't contribute to skin problems in dogs. Nonetheless, when my dogs have had skin problems they invariably improved when moved to a diet that is free of corn. This is true to the point that now I won't buy a dog food that contains corn. 

I have multiple food sensitivities myself and learned long ago that the best test...the one that even immunologists swear by...is seeing what happens if I give up a food for about three weeks and then add it back. If I feel better without it and worse when I add it back, my body isn't happy having it and I'm not going to eat it.

Life is a grand experiment for all of us. See what happens...within reason, of course.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I think it's important to point out that a vet doesn't = nutritional expert. It's a different layer of expertise. Almost like many doctors today. 


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## Danielle926 (Nov 9, 2013)

We have Senna on Zignature - Salmon and Trout which is grain free. We had her on 3 other kinds before this and this is by far the best. No more itching, licking, or scabs. I cant imagine being on grain free could be unhealthy for your golden


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Care54A said:


> I saw a new vet today. We were there for the cat, but we started talking pet food and she said that dogs really shouldn't eat grain free diets because they are omnivores and need the carbs. We currently feed Bailey Taste of the Wild (grain free, for those who aren't familiar with the brand) and he does great on it. However, this has me thinking and I will probably do some more research.
> 
> What are your thoughts on/experiences with grain free diets? My vet thinks it's just the current gluten free fad infiltrating the pet market.


I tend to agree with your Vet. If you had obtained your puppy from me, feeding a grain free diet would void the warranty.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

2 of the 3 Goldens I've owned have been sensitive to grains, one was quite extreme to the point where a single treat over the fence from a neighbour would set off a massive ear infection. The third hasn't ever had a grain-based food, as everyone gets the same thing in our house. I'm not against foods with grain in them, and I don't buy into this whole gluten-free fad that's happening in people either. But so far, my experience with Goldens has been grain= trouble. Just my experiences. 


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## elly (Nov 21, 2010)

I think if your dog needs grain free, you should go grain free. My dog needs a single protein and single grain and carb diet due to extreme allergies and inflammatory bowel but my pup will have whatever diet suits him and what is healthy. Dogs have evolved so much, I would be worried if my vet said that to me. I know they have a huge field of knowledge to cover and can't know everything but basic knowledge like that is surely to be expected


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

elly said:


> I think if your dog needs grain free, you should go grain free. My dog needs a single protein and single grain and carb diet due to extreme allergies and inflammatory bowel but my pup will have whatever diet suits him and what is healthy. Dogs have evolved so much, I would be worried if my vet said that to me. I know they have a huge field of knowledge to cover and can't know everything but basic knowledge like that is surely to be expected



^^ 


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

Swampcollie said:


> I tend to agree with your Vet. If you had obtained your puppy from me, feeding a grain free diet would void the warranty.


Would you care to share more details about your position? Since you feel so strongly about it you must have some reasons, I would love to learn more.



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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I think grain free dog foods are best for adult dogs. I have seen several threads on the forum about puppies who have had digestive problems eating grain free diets. Max ate a standard type food with grain as a puppy, but most of his adult life has been fed Acana Wild Prairie, which is grain free. It does contain some carbs, in the form of potatoes. He has done well on the WP and has a beautiful coat. We noticed a significant improvement in his coat after he was switched to WP.

It is interesting to note that Acana's Large Breed Puppy food contains 20% grain in the form of oats. However, the grain free Wild Prairie is rated appropriate for all life stages. Which food is best probably depends on the dog.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

That's interesting. Molly basically eats no carbs. Due to her allergies, she is on a raw diet, and the only sources of carbs that would work for her are fruits and veggies. She gets those as treats/snacks, but not as a part of her diet. She is doing well.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Hope I do not hijack your thread by asking, but when did dog food companies first start marketing grain free kibble?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> Same with dogs and grains. Dogs would do well to not be fed grains that they wouldn't eat in the wild. Dogs eat some grass, fruits and veggies. They don't eat corn or cereal grains....


I know of people who deal with coyotes and foxes nomming corn in their fields. They also are primary suspects besides raccoons for getting into garbage. They also eat dead animals along the road here. 

I don't think you can compare a dog's diet to something that's out in the wild.... because basically it brings out the fact that the wild relatives (not ancestors) of our dogs have way stronger guts than most of the dogs we own. A lot of that due to what has been bred into the dogs over time.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I moved to grain free when Brady had the biggest hot and a couple ear infections earlier. All that stopped with grain free.

Last year he stole a pizza, probably ate half of it, five days later, full blown ear infection. A couple months ago I accidentally bought the food with the grain ( same color bag ), sure enough a hot spot.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

GoldenCamper said:


> Hope I do not hijack your thread by asking, but when did dog food companies first start marketing grain free kibble?


At least a decade ago, if not longer.


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## Care54A (Jul 15, 2013)

I really don't have any plans to switch Bailey from TOTW since he does so well on it, but I thought I'd read up on what the vet said to see what information is out there. Honestly, it did sound a little odd as she was explaining it, and I totally blanked on corn and potatoes.

I really appreciate all your responses.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

GoldenCamper said:


> Hope I do not hijack your thread by asking, but when did dog food companies first start marketing grain free kibble?


Was it around the times the Atkins high protein-low carb diet became all the rage and many humans greatly reduced their intake of grains and other carbs?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Pay attention to which forum you're reading. This is the PUPPY forum. Feed puppies products that are designed from the ground up for PUPPIES. 

The vast majority of Grain Free diets are furmulated for adult dogs, not rapidly growing puppies. The grain free diets are not particularly well thought out products. They are primarily exercises in marketing theory. 

Domestic dogs are NOT Wolves or wild dogs. They are genetically very different from their wild ancestors and are quite capable of digesting and utilizing Carbs.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I fed my two seniors TOTW and am still feeding my adult dachshund TOTW. They do great on it BUT I chose not to feed my puppy grain free. I do think puppies have different nutritional requirements than adult dogs. My puppy is now 4 months old and he has been and will remain on Pro Plan large breed puppy formula till he is older.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It always makes me chuckle when I hear people talk about what a golden would eat "in the wild". As if there is an island full of wild Goldens we could visit and learn about them in their natural habitat. . They are domesticated animals so comparing them to a wolf or other wild dog is not exactly accurate. Even if they were in the wild, they would be scavengers, eating whatever they found. 

Regarding the grain free argument, I think people should feed what works for their dogs. My dogs look their best and do their best on pro plan. We fed grain free for years and I was always hunting for things to make their coats better , etc. now they eat pro plan with a probiotic powder and they look amazing. So feed what works. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> Actually, you would do well to give up sugar whether you have diabetes or not. Just because you tolerate it better than your neighbor doesn't mean it's good for you.


You kind of mixed your medical metaphor here. We might all be smart to give up _processed_ sugar, but a diabetic has to give up or cut back on all kinds of natural sugars too, which non-diabetic people don't have to do. 



DanaRuns said:


> Same with dogs and grains. Dogs would do well to not be fed grains that they wouldn't eat in the wild. Dogs eat some grass, fruits and veggies. They don't eat corn or cereal grains. Most grains are high in sugar and low in nutritional value, especially cereal grains, which are common in commercial dog foods. Cereal grains can be some of the most problematic ingredients in commercial dog food, in fact. Even if your dog tolerates grains, the grains in commercial dog foods can conceal hidden contaminants. After grains are harvested, they must be stored. And the longer the storage period, the greater the risk of contamination by one or more nasty pollutants, including hidden mold. What’s worse, many dog food companies are famous for using the cheapest grains they can find — rejects and by-products of the human food industry -- Cereal grain leftovers classified as “unfit for human consumption”.
> 
> So, yeah, because your neighbor has diabetes, you should give up sugar. And grains aren't good for your dog, even if he tolerates them.


Even if we accept the premise that dogs eat grass, fruits, and vegetables in the wild (as opposed to carrion and garbage, which is what most wild dog species survive on), literally everything you said here about grains applies to potatoes and peas, which are the carb sources that are typically substituted in "grain free" foods. In fact, peas are higher in simple sugars than any of the grains typically used in dog foods.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm with Sunrise when it comes to "grain free" kibble. What you'll notice is that they swap in a different source of vegetable matter and carbs. Many—not all—of these brands seem to be more interested in marketing to whatever the particular internet fad of the week is, and I don't think we're doing our dogs any favors by following those fads.

Swapping in peas for the corn in a dog food does not automatically improve the food, though you can start calling it "grain free," and lots of companies have figured out that by taking out the grains and using full water-weight chicken, they can have a food whose ingredient list starts with "chicken, sweet potato, peas" that sounds natural, holistic, and premium, but isn't necessarily better than a food that starts with "chicken byproduct meal, whole grain corn, chicken meal."

For a kibble to pass AAFCO feeding guidelines, it pretty much has to have a carb source in it, because a dog will waste away and die if he just eats muscle meat. So when you're buying a kibble, avoiding grains doesn't really help you unless your dog has a specific intolerance to a specific ingredient.

And my guess is that many dogs' skin issues probably have more to do with fat content than with specific ingredients, but that's my guess based on experience, not based on any specific research.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> It always makes me chuckle when I hear people talk about what a golden would eat "in the wild". *As if there is an island full of wild Goldens we could visit and learn about them in their natural habitat*. .


Couldn't resist


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't feed grain free to puppies, but I find all my adult dogs do better on grain free or lower grain. My dogs used to get ear infections so bad their ears would bleed. Never had that once I changed the way I feed.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

GoldenCamper said:


> Couldn't resist


I can't see the picture! ??


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

I had every intention of feeding Fromm or TOTW when I got Rocket. But honestly, he was doing so well on the Pro Plan the breeder recommended, that I figured why mess with a good thing? And honestly, I can't tell you the number of times I'm complemented on his coat when we are out and about. I took him to the pet store this weekend and no less than 6 people asked what I do to make his coat look so nice, where do I get him groomed, etc. And that was when I was on my way IN to the do-it-yourself dog wash at the back of the store! He hadn't even had his bath yet.

The only food allergy I've dealt with in a dog was my collie. And believe it or not, he was allergic to red meat, of all things. I HAD to feed him a chicken and corn based food. If he ate any red meat, he would bust out in huge hot spots all over the place. I could give him pork bones, but not beef or bison. No bully sticks, etc.

So, just in my own limited experience, every dog is different, and different foods work for different dogs, just like different people have different dietary requirements. 

So, I'm sticking with what works for us.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I can't see the picture! ??


Shows in my post and in your quoting me too. Don't know what to tell you other than it is a picture of the main characters of the old tv show Fantasy Island.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

I have Ella on TOTW Puppy. She is on it because up until January she was having tummy problems with recurring diarrhea, even when on a prescription food from the vet. Agreed with vet to experiment with food and the TOTW was one of the ones on my list to try because it had totally different proteins then what she had been eating. It works for her. Don't know if it's the protein or that is grain free. But her poop has been solid and her skin and coat are good. When I switch to adult food I'm going to try something different because it's hard to find near me and I think she isn't thrilled with the taste of it. I'll do some trial and error to see what works for her, whether it's grain free or not. I just want what is best for my particular dog. 

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## Care54A (Jul 15, 2013)

Swampcollie said:


> Pay attention to which forum you're reading. This is the PUPPY forum. Feed puppies products that are designed from the ground up for PUPPIES.
> 
> The vast majority of Grain Free diets are furmulated for adult dogs, not rapidly growing puppies. The grain free diets are not particularly well thought out products. They are primarily exercises in marketing theory.
> 
> Domestic dogs are NOT Wolves or wild dogs. They are genetically very different from their wild ancestors and are quite capable of digesting and utilizing Carbs.



TOTW makes a grain free puppy formula, which is what I use. Though at 10.5 months, I will probably make the switch to adult food soon.


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