# Picking a food is harder than finding a dog...



## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

I previously posted about my new 11 month old GRD who came to us about 10 days ago eating Purina One Sensitive Systems. We have had a run of soft stools (sorry, could resist) and have attributed it to water change, stress, and maybe a new bag of the same food. I am going to get her on some rice and chicken for a couple of days to see if we can firm things up.

However, in all my reading, I am now quite convinced that we can do better for her than continuing the Purina One Sensitive Systems. The issues about corn and some of the other ingredients make me wonder and I do not have an issue with spending more for better food and (hopefully) fewer health issues.

However, reading about food choices makes my head spin. I like the idea of a simpler food (one protein source) and no grains. Not sure what protein % is needed for an 11 month old -- seems like 22-34 is about right. I do know I am not going to "cook" for her as I have 2 kids, so the do it your self approach won't work. I also would prefer not to go through a long, drawn-out experimental phase with multiple $50 or $60 bags of food!

I am lucky in that most of the high-end brands are available to me locally. I am not sure talking with people at pet food stores makes sense, because they have a natural conflict of interest. And vets, it seem, do not really spend much time on this and just want to sell the bags of Science Diet sitting on their shelves.

So, it comes down to asking for some advice. I have read this forum for most of the afternoon and see lots of possibles: 

Innova (and other Natura brands)
Fromm
Wellness
Diamond
Taste of the Wild
Blue Buffalo
Arcana
Solid Gold

I would also be interested in opinions on protein source (salmon vs. chicken, vs. lamb vs. beef)

So, recognizing that this is once again soliciting opinions, can some advice, with your underlying logic and rationale, be provided?

Thanks!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

This is my personal experience so give it whatever value you feel it deserves. I was feeding Canidae, they changed formulas and after my dogs ate several months worth of the new formula the newest bag I opened made them sick. It was so immediate it was blatantly obvious the food was the problem. So I needed to change their food immediately. 

I chose Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Fish, because I wanted something with limited ingredients. The day after changing their food Robbie and Lilah both had firm stools again, the diarrhea stopped.

I did have to reduce the amount of food I gave them by a half cup because they started picking up weight. But I'm very pleased with the NB, their coats are beautiful and they like the food.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

You bet it is!

Pasteing from another thread..
<<We started Hank off on Innova Large Breed Puppy food. He's doing great on it. His adult coat is coming in beautifully. My last golden was allergic to corn so I automatically looked for a corn-free kibble. Just me - many dogs eat corn with no problem! My Maggie was on Innova the last 6 months of her life and I liked what I saw on the ingredient list.>>

I think we were just lucky that our first food choice worked well for Hank. I know many owners try several different brands before they come up with the best for their dog.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

If I were bringing home a new puppy, after a couple of weeks in our home I'd try transitioning it to Acana Prairie Harvest. It's a chicken-based "all life stages" grain-free kibble with 34% protein and 17% fat. It's made by the same Canadian company, Champion Petfoods, that makes Orijen.

I have trust in the company; I believe it has nice moderate protein and fat level that a puppy benefits from, and chicken supposedly has a fuller profile of amino acids than other meats.

I raised my lab on Orijen Large Breed Puppy (before Acana was available here) and she did well on it.

In this day and age, I place heavy emphasis on the company making the food. Right now, I think highly of Natura (Innova, California Natura, EVO, Healthwise), Champion Petfoods (Orijen, Acana), Fromm, and Horizon Pet Food. 

There are probably at least half a dozen kibbles your puppy would do well on. You'll just have to choose one, try it for a couple months and see how your dog does on it.


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## Minnesota Rosie (Jul 28, 2009)

It was not too long ago that I started looking into a new food for Rosie. We had been feeding her Iams Large Breed Puppy, because that's what the breeder was giving her. I had no idea the difference in the various dog foods, and my head was completely spinning! I narrowed it down to Innova and Fromm. The main reason I chose the Innova Large Breed Puppy is because I would've had to special order the Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold. We have been doing great with the Innova...Rosie loves the taste, and she's had no problems with it at all. The only thing I don't like about it is that is not as convenient as being able to buy her food from Petco. I have to drive a little further away, and it costs a little more. It's not that big of a deal, though, since it seems to be agreeing with her.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

LOL, it took me almost 8 years to find a food I was comfortable with and that worked for my golden.

I feed Wellness CORE Reduced Fat. Her coat is beautiful, poops are good, no gas, and she can have a decent amount without gaining weight. We're happy!


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

thr61 said:


> I previously posted about my new 11 month old GRD who came to us about 10 days ago eating Purina One Sensitive Systems. We have had a run of soft stools (sorry, could resist) and have attributed it to water change, stress, and maybe a new bag of the same food. I am going to get her on some rice and chicken for a couple of days to see if we can firm things up.
> 
> However, in all my reading, I am now quite convinced that we can do better for her than continuing the Purina One Sensitive Systems. The issues about corn and some of the other ingredients make me wonder and I do not have an issue with spending more for better food and (hopefully) fewer health issues.
> 
> ...


I would avoid Diamond and Taste of the Wild (Made by Diamond) due to the company issues they have been having (recalls).

I would also look at Nature's Variety. All of the other companies you have listed are good companies and good foods.


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

MyBentley said:


> If I were bringing home a new puppy, after a couple of weeks in our home I'd try transitioning it to Acana Prairie Harvest. It's a chicken-based "all life stages" grain-free kibble with 34% protein and 17% fat. It's made by the same Canadian company, Champion Petfoods, that makes Orijen.
> 
> I have trust in the company; I believe it has nice moderate protein and fat level that a puppy benefits from, and chicken supposedly has a fuller profile of amino acids than other meats.
> 
> ...


I like this approach of evaluating both the food ANd the company. I am interested in your advice to move from orijen to acana. My girl is actually 11 months, so is not on puppy food. The FAQs on the Champion site suggest that acana is very good, but that it was designed for a lower price point than orijen.

I am impressed with these folks and with Horizon, another Canadian company. I guess since I am already sending big chunks of cash to canada (my daughter goes to college at McGill in Montreal), I should stick with Canadian companies!

Thanks for the help.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

A good site to learn about how to analyze and look for in a food http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main There are many good foods out there and once you feel comfortable with a food and the company that makes it, then it's all what your dog does well on.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I am a big fan of Natura foods, Innova and EVO specifically for their ingredients. EVO is grain free and can be a bit rich for some dogs, but many do great on it... I love Innova even though it's not grain free.. the ingredient list is great IMO and the company as a whole is awesome with their customer service and quality control (again IMO ).

I am also very impressed with Acana foods and wish it was around when I was feeding kibble as I would have tried that with mine. 

I now feed raw.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

We rotate thru Innova , Fromm 4 star, and Acana with our crew. We also use the Honest Kitchen or canned Trippets tripe as toppers.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

I meant to add to my last post that I really really love The Honest Kitchen products as well, though they can really be QUITE expensive, especially if its the bulk of the dog's diet. I think if I were feeding a kibble diet now, I would do what P&M's Mom does and use it either as a "topper" or feed it for one meal as I do now (they get THK for breakfast every morning).


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Based on narrowing my list and a bunch more reading tonight, I am closing in on Orijen Adult, Horizon Legacy, or Fromm Four Star (currently in third place).

Any reactions?

Will make some calls tomorrow to see what is in stock. Luckily, all three are available within 5 miles of my house!

Thanks again.


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## goldensonly (Jun 13, 2005)

*>>>>>>>>Picking a food is harder than finding a dog...* <<<<<<<<

I had to laugh at that!!! That is SOOOOOO true!!! 

Over the course of several years we have tried several of the leading brands that you have mentioned here... they were ALL good foods! 

I tend to like the convenience of feeding all my dogs the same food, just to make it easier rather than try to explain who gets what food... when they all eat the same thing, it's a no-brainer! )

I especially like the Innova! My dogs just really looked GREAT on it... but after being on it for awhile, they just didn't like it... were not excited at meal times at all... so we switched... 

We were on Taste of the Wild for about a year and a half, and my dogs LOVED THAT FOOD... there was never a meal that went by, that they didn't just gobble that stuff down. We did use two of the formulas, Dakota Bison and Pacific Stream, and I think they looked best on the Pacific Stream... but, they were gaining and gaining way too much weight, and even cutting the food back to less than 2 cups a day, they didn't seem to lose... 

In the last month, we have switched over to Adult Blue Buffalo, and so far I am liking the results. Coats looks real good and poops are SMALL, and when you have 6 to pick up after that is a major factor! hahahaha
I will give this food at least another 3 months before I rave too much about it, as I think it takes about that long to really get accustomed to a new food to show any long term results, but so far, so good! ) Plus, my feed store gets it for me at the same cost as Petco, and they deliver it to my house at no extra fees! 

I've never heard too much about Acana, but it sounds like a good one, too!


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

thr61 said:


> Thanks for all the advice so far.
> 
> Based on narrowing my list and a bunch more reading tonight, I am closing in on Orijen Adult, Horizon Legacy, or Fromm Four Star (currently in third place).
> 
> ...


Don't know much about the Horizon, but you would be in good shape with any of the 3.


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## pokey (Sep 4, 2009)

I just finished transitioning my puppy over to Acana Pacifica, and so far we are all happy. Fish is usually easily digestible and Bailey was having some trouble on California Natural Lamb Meal and Rice. I didn't know if it was the lamb or the rice, so I decided to drop both. I had always wanted to try grain free with my older dog and will now transition her over to Pacifica now that the puppy is doing well. I went with fish based formula as the older dog is on fish for allergies, and like goldensonly, it sure would be nice to feed one food! Besides allergies, the older one has colitis, so I am hoping this switch will be good for her and not a disaster!

I also went with Acana due to Champion being a smaller company and having a good reputation; the same reason I went with California Natural because of Natura's reputation. I was feeding Eagle Pack Holistic Select, but now with the merge with Wellness to Wellpet, I am not happy with the customer service, but that is just me. There has already been some little changes in the Eagle Pack Holistic foods and I have a feeling there will be more to come.


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

So I am now leaning towards Orijen adult and my only concern now is the much higher protein than what she is currently getting. I know there are studies that suggest dogs do fine with higher levels, but since she had soft stools on a 26% no-so-great kibble (Purina One Sensitive Systems), I don't want to make it worse. I suppose the only way to know is to test it out with a small bag and see how it goes.

I am going to check on the Acana as well and speak with a store that carries that. Innova seems good but the company details on the Orijen site really impress me.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

thr61 said:


> So I am now leaning towards Orijen adult and my only concern now is the much higher protein than what she is currently getting. I know there are studies that suggest dogs do fine with higher levels, but since she had soft stools on a 26% no-so-great kibble (Purina One Sensitive Systems), I don't want to make it worse. I suppose the only way to know is to test it out with a small bag and see how it goes.
> 
> I am going to check on the Acana as well and speak with a store that carries that. Innova seems good but the company details on the Orijen site really impress me.


 

Acana is made by the same people who make Orijen ( Champion ). Acana has a more moderate protein level. We love it at our house.


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## Andythom (Jun 20, 2009)

I started feeding Horizon Legacy a week or so ago. It's a little pricey, but i'm pretty happy with it so far. I had food refusal problems with two different formulas of TOTW, and he was loosing muscle mass while on Natural Balance (although he did really well on it otherwise). One downside with Horizon is they don't offer a frequent buyer program.


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Acana is made by the same people who make Orijen ( Champion ). Acana has a more moderate protein level. We love it at our house.


Why did you want the more moderate protein level? Did you consider both?


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

*OK. Down to Acana or Orijin*

I like this company and am impressed with their approach. I am now struggling to decide between the Acana Prairie Harvest and the Orijin Adult.

We are moving from Purina One Sensitive Systems (her breeder fed all her non-show dogs this blend) and so there is a big jump in protein for either choice (34% with Acana and 40% with Orijin) -- the Purina is 22%.

I could really use some opinions and help with this last part of the decision.

Thanks!


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Some dogs will have difficulties digesting a very high protein food which can cause mushy poos. Some will do totally fine with it. If your dog is extremely active and has no problem burning calories and doesn't have a sensitive tummy, I may be inclined to try Orijen... but I do know that many people have great success with the lower protein levels in Acana too.


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## RDaniel (Oct 12, 2009)

Purina Pro Plan Shredded works well for Clifford. There is no corn and the yard is manageble because most of the food is digested. You do not have to feed as much. His weight is great and he has too much energy.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

As far as I can tell, a lot of what gets said about dog food on the internet is combination of pseudo-science and complete hooey. There's, of course, some truth in there, but it's worth taking most of what you read with a grain of salt.

Our guys eat Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy as pups, then transition to Eukanuba Premium Performance as adults. They're trim, lean, glossy, muscular, high-energy dogs with healthy stool. We had to go with the Premium Performance in order to keep up weight on with all the exercise they get (at 30/20, it's the highest protein/fat blend Eukanuba has).

I think grain sensitivity is a lot less frequent than people seem to believe, and many things that look like allergies are really thyroid issues. I feel like I hear more stool-related problems problems on this forum from people whose dogs eat rich "premium" foods than from people whose dogs eat ordinary, high quality kibble like Iams, Purina, or Eukanuba.

I'm not knocking those of you whose dogs are happy and healthy on something else, and I do often consider moving up to a more expensive food with fancier ingredients. But I look at the dogs, and I see that they ain't broke.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

We currently feed Acana Grasslands to our 5.5 month old puppy and she loves it. I had tried a sample bag of Orijen puppy food with her, but it was too rich and when I scaled back the amount of protein, we had better stools. Her black coat is shiny and glossy.

Grasslands is the New Zealand lamb, northern pike, and egg formula, Pacifica is the Pacific wild flounder, Pacific salmon, and Pacific wild herring formula and Prairie Harvest is the free run chicken, egg, wild lake whitefish, and wild walleye formula. http://www.championpetfoods.com/acana/products.php

Some slight differences between the formulae are that the grasslands contains sweet potato in comparison to russet potato in the Prairie Harvest and Pacifica blends. However, as they are all-life stages formulae, their calcium to phosphorus ratios are low with Pacifica and Prairie Harvest being in the range of 1.2-1.3:1 and Grasslands being 1.5:1.

Champion Petfoods' products can be purchased in Alberta in a variety of places for a reasonable price as their plant is in Morinville, Alberta. I pay CAD$57 +5% GST for a total of CAD$59.85 (USD$57.75) for the 13kg (28.6 lb) bag.

Based on the information on the bag, 1 cup = 100 grams = 420 kcal, so my puppy who eats about 360 grams daily (using a balance to measure the mass) is eating 3.6 cups of this food is taking in 1512 kcal plus any training treats, and raw bones she gets during the course of the day to maintain her skinny minnie frame.

Depending on the metabolism of your puppy, the amounts that you will feed will vary from what I am feeding or what the bag says. You will need to know how much you are currently feeding of the ProPlan One and determine the number of calories per cup in order to get an equivalent amount for whatever dog food you choose.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

thr61 said:


> I like this company and am impressed with their approach. I am now struggling to decide between the Acana Prairie Harvest and the Orijin Adult.
> 
> We are moving from Purina One Sensitive Systems (her breeder fed all her non-show dogs this blend) and so there is a big jump in protein for either choice (34% with Acana and 40% with Orijin) -- the Purina is 22%.
> 
> ...


Hi Mia.

Personally, between the two, I'd start with the Acana and here's why:

1) As Missmarstar stated, the more moderate (but still high by industry standards) protein level might be better to help regulate your dog's system.

2) Wellness keeps the protein in their grain free foods at Acana-like levels stating that their research shows that dogs are not able to absorb more than that amount of protein. They also make the important point that the higher protein commercial diets are relatively new to the industry and the longterm effects of feeding them are not yet known.

p.s. Champion Pets does make nice foods, but keep in mind the higher protein and diverse ingredient lists can make it difficult to weed out any ingredients that are causing your pooch problems, so if you're going for an elimination diet, you might be better to start with a more limited ingredient food (by a quality manufacturer) even if it has a grain or two in it. Good luck with whatever you decide to try!


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## Traz (Jan 19, 2009)

I am a Fromm lover here. Or at least my puppies are. They are a good quality food, with quality ingredients & made by Fromm & only Fromm. They do not send there kibble to be manufactured in other plants by other manufactures.
I think Orijen is a decent food also but I personally eliminated it when I got my 1st puppy because people were finding bone fragments in the fish formula & there were a lot of complaints about it. The company didn't think it was a problem, but I saw some pics & they were significant in size.

Acana & Origen are made by the same company- Champion Foods.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You mentioned in your OP that you would prefer to have only one protein source. I think that if there isn't an issue with the other proteins, it is better to have multiple protein sources. My only dog who is on a single protein kibble is the one who is allergic to almost everything, and I give him other protein sources seperately throughout the week.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

thr61 said:


> However, reading about food choices makes my head spin.


Forgot to say, welcome to the club! Also meant to ask if you've had your dog tested for any parasites that might be causing the problem?

p.s. Be careful not to overfeed the pumpkin as that can cause loose stool in itself.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

_"Picking a food is harder than finding a dog..."_

Tell me about it! I'm at my wit's end, at this point.




Traz said:


> I think Orijen is a decent food also but I personally eliminated it when I got my 1st puppy because people were finding bone fragments in the fish formula & there were a lot of complaints about it. The company didn't think it was a problem, but I saw some pics & they were significant in size.


We just discovered this same problem with the Wellness Core, ocean formula. The pieces we're finding are small (about the size of an uncooked grain of rice) but I don't like it one bit. Mom talked to the company just this morning and they didn't seem too concerned about it, either. :no:

And I can't help but wonder, after our failed experiment with Orijen, if there isn't something going on with them. Supposedly, they were having some "production issues" - they had fallen behind and were ramping up production to meet demand. I'm sure that's entirely possible, but after my boys ate the food for a few days and then _both_ of them started refusing it, it makes me a little suspicious and I have to wonder if there's a problem.

I, too, am a little leery of the high-protein, grain-free foods, the more I think about it. I like the idea of grain-free, but with it being a relatively new trend, I wonder about the longterm effects of such a high protein content. My Gunner HAS to be on grain-free, but I don't know that I want to go that route with Riley.

We were thinking about Fromm (actually started a switch-over) but they add Vitamin K and I've heard some iffy things about that.

So now we're looking at Innova. It's really enough to make you pull your hair out.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> _"Picking a food is harder than finding a dog..."_
> 
> Tell me about it! I'm at my wit's end, at this point.
> 
> ...


 

Here is some info on vit K http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=vitamins I thought that the artificial vit K (menadione) was an issue but that there was no toxicity with natural vitK. Do you have other info????

Also, I have fed the Innova large breed, which, in effect, is a good maintenance food and really like it. Good protein level and considerably less calories than the regular adult.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Here is some info on vit K http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=vitamins I thought that the artificial vit K (menadione) was an issue but that there was no toxicity with natural vitK. Do you have other info????


No, the info I read concerned the synthetic. (Same site, different page)
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione

What I didn't understand was that Fromm has Vitamin K listed in their "typical analysis" and I hadn't noticed that with other foods. I thought maybe that meant that it was added and was something to stay away from?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Sounds like a question for Fromm to make sure it isn't menadione. I would think they have to list an artificial as what it is.... but I am not at all sure.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

WHEW!!! They do NOT ise menadione. Here's the Q&A page. http://www.frommfamily.com/frequently-asked-questions-dog-food.php#q13


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> WHEW!!! They do NOT ise menadione. Here's the Q&A page. http://www.frommfamily.com/frequently-asked-questions-dog-food.php#q13


 
I read the FAQ page and yet, somehow, managed to miss that. :doh:

But that's great! Thanks for finding it!


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

I have decided to go with Orijen and had a great conversation with them this morning. I had some fairly specific questions about their products, making the change, and what to expect. The person in their customer service center provided a generous amount of time and was able to answer all of my questions. And I learned a fair amount along the way.

We are starting, SLOWLY, tomorrow, and will see how it goes. My plan is to feed the Adult since it is lower in fat and this may help somewhat, with the soft stools. I also plan to continue the pumpkin for a while. I will keep this thread posted with results.


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## tibook (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi, new here, but I thought I'd offer some advice:

Our two golden pups were having a hard time with loose stools and such. We tried a few of the big name boutique foods and were having no luck. Our trainer suggested we go to a raw diet. We started with Nature's Variety frozen foods, and then switched to a mix of the NV grain-free kibble and chicken thighs and legs. 

Let me tell you, the difference was immediate. The switch from the grains made a big difference, and the raw diet has worked so well! They are lean, muscular, healthy girls, their stools are small and infrequent (even more so now that we have cut the kibble out of their diet too). My wife and I were leery about the raw meats, but their digestive tracts are built differently than ours. Its just amazing how we went from "why are we having this problem" to where they are today. 

Think about it, these dogs wouldn't be snacking on rice and barley in the wild, their diet would be 95% carnivorous. If you're having issues with loose stools and such, definitely cut the grain out of their diet and see if it helps. And give the raw diet a chance!

Why is rice so prevalent in dog kibble? Its a great, cheap filler...


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## pokey (Sep 4, 2009)

How in the world did you get through to someone? I have been calling and emailing for 3 weeks and have not been able to get a reply. I had finally given up, but since you got to speak to someone, maybe I will try again tomorrow.

I hope the food works for you; it is funny how excited we get when after a long time with soft stools we get excited when a poop comes out firm! Only another dog lover would understand ;-)


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> As far as I can tell, a lot of what gets said about dog food on the internet is combination of pseudo-science and complete hooey. There's, of course, some truth in there, but it's worth taking most of what you read with a grain of salt.
> 
> Our guys eat Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy as pups, then transition to Eukanuba Premium Performance as adults. They're trim, lean, glossy, muscular, high-energy dogs with healthy stool. We had to go with the Premium Performance in order to keep up weight on with all the exercise they get (at 30/20, it's the highest protein/fat blend Eukanuba has).
> 
> ...


Oh I could Kiss you right now!!!!!!! I have been feeding the adults and puppies, ok hold onto your chairs folks....PEDIGREE -- Vitality + for the adults and Healthy Start for the puppies ...and OMG they aren't dead!!!! I was totally fed up with the increased costs of kibble and no decrease in sight, so my friend who I respect hugely and has fed Pedigree for years challenged me to do a test! so I did, and you know what *"I like it"* : this is the first time in years I have had litters without soft stools, I am not cleaning up mounds in the yard and guess what the dogs are thriving!!!!!!!! I have fed it all and have come to that conclusion that......dog food discussions are like politics! everyone has an opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

pokey said:


> How in the world did you get through to someone? I have been calling and emailing for 3 weeks and have not been able to get a reply. I had finally given up, but since you got to speak to someone, maybe I will try again tomorrow.
> 
> I hope the food works for you; it is funny how excited we get when after a long time with soft stools we get excited when a poop comes out firm! Only another dog lover would understand ;-)


I just called once and got through immediately. Funny how that works...

I had already decided I wanted to feed either Orijen or Arcana and so was looking for their guidance on which brand and blend to use. I was impressed with the company's approach and reputation and so it was just a question of making a choice. They were not trying to "sell" me on their brand vs. another and so I did not feel like there was any issue with a conflict of interest. Just honest, high-quality help -- something I find fairly rare these days!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

arcane said:


> Oh I could Kiss you right now!!!!!!! I have been feeding the adults and puppies, ok hold onto your chairs folks....PEDIGREE -- Vitality + for the adults and Healthy Start for the puppies ...and OMG they aren't dead!!!! I was totally fed up with the increased costs of kibble and no decrease in sight, so my friend who I respect hugely and has fed Pedigree for years challenged me to do a test! so I did, and you know what *"I like it"* : this is the first time in years I have had litters without soft stools, I am not cleaning up mounds in the yard and guess what the dogs are thriving!!!!!!!! I have fed it all and have come to that conclusion that......dog food discussions are like politics! everyone has an opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ha! You don't have to kiss me. Just keep me in mind for one of your gorgeous puppies down the road sometime...


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

arcane said:


> Oh I could Kiss you right now!!!!!!! I have been feeding the adults and puppies, ok hold onto your chairs folks....PEDIGREE -- Vitality + for the adults and Healthy Start for the puppies ...and OMG they aren't dead!!!! I was totally fed up with the increased costs of kibble and no decrease in sight, so my friend who I respect hugely and has fed Pedigree for years challenged me to do a test! so I did, and you know what *"I like it"* : this is the first time in years I have had litters without soft stools, I am not cleaning up mounds in the yard and guess what the dogs are thriving!!!!!!!! I have fed it all and have come to that conclusion that......dog food discussions are like politics! everyone has an opinion!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In response to this and also to what Brian said, I'll tell ya what...
I've had dogs in the past who were on Purina and I have my two, now, who have been on "premium" foods (Orijen, EVO, Core, etc.) From what I've seen, I've had more problems with the premium food. Granted, I'm comparing different dogs, so I don't know if the results can be attributed ONLY to the food, but it at least begs the question I think.

I don't mind paying for premium food... if that's what I'm getting. But when we get what HAD to be a bad bag of Orijen, when we find bones in the Core, I have to ask what, exactly, I'm paying for. We were paying the higher prices to avoid those issues and if they're going to have the same problems that every other manufacturer occasionally has, what's the point? 

That said, I don't think I'm ready to go back to Purina just yet. Not that there's anything wrong with it, or with many of the other brands. It's just purely psychological for me. 
Gunner, because of his EPI, has to be on a grain-free food, so we're pretty much stuck, there. We're going to try Innova or Fromm with Riley (haven't decided yet) and if I'm not absolutely doing cartwheels over the results, I may just try ProPlan.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It seems to me, purely anecdotally, that _some_ "premium" foods cause problems for _some_ dogs. I definitely would not want to indict all high-end foods.

It's fairly clear to me, though, that some of these foods are formulated with good intentions and questionable theories, rather than with years of research and hard data, so it doesn't surprise me that many dogs find them too rich or otherwise not quite ideal.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> It seems to me, purely anecdotally, that _some_ "premium" foods cause problems for _some_ dogs. I definitely would not want to indict all high-end foods.
> 
> It's fairly clear to me, though, that some of these foods are formulated with good intentions and questionable theories, rather than with years of research and hard data, so it doesn't surprise me that many dogs find them too rich or otherwise not quite ideal.


Oh no, I wouldn't indict all high-end foods, either. And I wouldn't say that they're a bad choice for all dogs. I've heard from people who have fed nothing but Orijen for years and their dogs have absolutely thrived on it. 
I think it all comes down to the simple philosophy, 'feed what works for your dog.' If a dog is thriving on a certain food, whether it's a 'grocery store' brand or a 'premium' food (or even a raw diet) I say stick with it!

I question the high protein diets, too. I don't have nearly a good enough understanding of canine nutrition to know whether it's good, bad or doesn't make a difference at all. I'm just leery of it because it seems like a relatively new trend. I've never had a dog on a high protein diet long enough to really see what the long-term effects may be. Personally, I think I feel better about the more 'traditional' formulas.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Is a dog not a domesticated carnivorous mammal ?
So why are most commercial dog foods primarily made up of grain ...
... ( and not necessarily listed as such ) ...

More on canine digestion and anatomy
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/digestion-anatomy/


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## Traz (Jan 19, 2009)

LifeOfRiley said:


> _"Picking a food is harder than finding a dog..."_
> We were thinking about Fromm (actually started a switch-over) but they add Vitamin K and I've heard some iffy things about that.


 According to their information Fromm *does not* add vitamin K to their food. They did until 2005 & they stopped. I know it is not listed on the bags.


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## Bkhollan (Aug 18, 2009)

I agree picking a food is a hard decision. Bella was originally on Purina Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy from the breeder. I live in an area without much access to most of the foods listed in this thread. I would have to drive probably 45 mins to an hour to find those brands. Luckily for me, I have to drive to a bigger city 80 miles away twice a week, so I have access to a PetSmart. I went with Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy Formula - Chicken & Brown Rice. Bella seems to be doing well on it, and she went from not finishing her food if she would even go eat to eating it all as soon as I put it down.


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## Allan's Girl (Apr 16, 2009)

My girl, Bailey, is an allergy dog. My vet recommends I but a food with one protein and one carbohydrate source or what is called a limited ingredient diet. Our other girl has a tendency toward pancreatitis attacks so we need to watch what we feed her too. We have had really good luck with Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance Duck and potato and the sweet potato and venison. Our dogs have been eating these foods for years with good results. We have tried other foods but always end up back on one of these. Hope that helps.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Traz said:


> According to their information Fromm *does not* add vitamin K to their food. They did until 2005 & they stopped. I know it is not listed on the bags.


 
According to the nutritional info on their website, they DO add vit K. However, they do NOT use menadione... the artificial vit K associated with health issues. http://www.frommfamily.com/products-fs-d-d-duck.php


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

T&T said:


> Is a dog not a domesticated carnivorous mammal ?
> So why are most commercial dog foods primarily made up of grain ...
> ... ( and not necessarily listed as such ) ...
> 
> ...


A dog is, arguably, not the same as a wolf in its digestive tract or in its nutritional needs. Dogs have evolved for tens of thousands of years to eat human scraps, garbage, and waste. A fully carnivorous diet may not, in fact, fully agree with every dog.

The fact is that plenty of dogs thrive on diets that contain a substantial amount of grain. I'll take that factual, data-based finding over a theory about wolves any day of the week.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> A dog is, arguably, not the same as a wolf in its digestive tract or in its nutritional needs. Dogs have evolved for tens of thousands of years to eat human scraps, garbage, and waste. A fully carnivorous diet may not, in fact, fully agree with every dog.
> 
> The fact is that plenty of dogs thrive on diets that contain a substantial amount of grain. I'll take that factual, data-based finding over a theory about wolves any day of the week.


I have to agree, at this point. I would have to think that human "interference" with the domestic dog over thousands of years has had such an impact that it would make comparing them to wolves similar to comparing apples and oranges. I mean, people can say that dogs and wolves are pretty much genetically identical, but we share something like 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees, too, and there are obviously huge, significant differences.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> A dog is, arguably, not the same as a wolf in its digestive tract or in its nutritional needs. Dogs have evolved for tens of thousands of years to eat human scraps, garbage, and waste. A fully carnivorous diet may not, in fact, fully agree with every dog.
> 
> The fact is that plenty of dogs thrive on diets that contain a substantial amount of grain. I'll take that factual, data-based finding over a theory about wolves any day of the week.


I see
So is this why most pet food companies are "scientifically" formulating grain based diets for our dogs ?
But yet using every trick of the trade to make it sound/look like meat based diets ?
It's all about $ and convenience & not at all the way Nature intended it
There must be a reason why dogs were classified as _Canis Lupus_ and not_ Gallus Gallus Domesticus_

And no, I wouldn't say dogs are thriving
Not at the rate canine diseases is climbing

Carnivores being fed grain
Herbivores being fed meat 
:doh:


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

T&T said:


> *But yet using every trick of the trade to make it sound/look like meat based diets *?
> It's all about $ and convenience & not at all the way Nature intended it


Not sure how they are doing that. Every bag of dog food gives you the ingredients and guaranteed analysis ratio so you should have a good idea what your getting. Maybe you are referring to some of the catchy names used by some of the manufactures like 'Taste of the Wild'.

I agree it is a lot about $ and convenience. I like just opening up a bag of food and putting it in a bowl. I guess I'm lazy. I assume you must feed RAW?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

T&T said:


> I see
> So is this why most pet food companies are "scientifically" formulating grain based diets for our dogs ?
> But yet using every trick of the trade to make it sound/look like meat based diets ?
> It's all about $ and convenience & not at all the way Nature intended it
> ...


Well, yes, most pet food companies do use some kind of grain in their formulas, not because they're evil corporate conglomerates, but because they have lots of data that shows dogs thriving on foods that include grain. I think it's perfectly legitimate to formulate a dog food that contains a certain percentage of grain, and there's good science that suggests a dog can thrive on a food that gives him a certain percentage of its calories from grains.

I don't know about those "tricks." I feed the dogs Eukanuba, and the inclusion of grains and carbohydrates is very clear on the bag, and it's part of what they brag about in the promotional material for the food. Meat absolutely comprises the first few ingredients, and it's part of what they brag about too, but they tout the carbs as a good source of ready energy.

Dogs are classified as _Canis lupus familiaris_ because of genetic studies, not because of the similarity in their digestive tract to _Canis lupus_ (the gray wolf). The classification does not tell us whether the digestive tract is nearly identical or whether it has changed as substantially as the outer morphology has in the last fifteen thousand years. 

What canine diseases are you referring to, and would you mind posting the links to studies that connect those diseases to grains? I hear this claim a lot, but I haven't seen a lot of hard data on it. Grains in dog food have been studied extensively, and while there's more work to be done, no strong tends have shown up connecting grains in diets to common canine diseases, so the idea that grains are somehow a main cause of many diseases is pretty far-fetched. Obesity is a lot more dangerous than corn.

You say dogs are closely related to wolves, so they need to eat like wolves. I say dogs have been eating people scraps for fifteen millennia and have had a chance to adapt. My point is not that the genetics prove dogs can tolerate grains, but rather that we cannot prove what a dog needs nutritionally by looking at the behavior of a species that diverged at least 15,000 years ago. We have to look at contemporary studies, and at this point, there isn't a lot of real data that shows problems with grains.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

There's lots of info out there on dog dental anatomy/digestive track and what diet it was intended for.
And obviously you can't just switch a domesticated dog's grain based diet overnight & expect immediate results.
It's not just about grain based diets, the quality of ingredients, the unnecessary artificial additives, sugars, colors etc etc

To be honest, I've been staying away from food discussions for a reason.
As a consumer, it bothers me to see some consumers bothered by the fact that some will research, question, doubt ...
When all they're trying to do is find out where their $ goes, and what's really in their pets' food by trying to decipher an ingredient list or a garanteed analysis which thanks to AAFCO/FDA/labelling laws, were meant to be confusing.
After all, there WAS a major recall, something somewhere went terribly wrong. 

I didn't know 5 years ago what I know today about the human/dog food industry/ingredients.
You can say I learned the hard way, desperately trying to help a loved one in need.
What matters today is that the endless hours of research paid off and made a huge difference.
But yes, one should know better than to take their info from just one source.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

msdogs1976 said:


> Not sure how they are doing that. Every bag of dog food gives you the ingredients and guaranteed analysis ratio so you should have a good idea what your getting. Maybe you are referring to some of the catchy names used by some of the manufactures like 'Taste of the Wild'.
> 
> I agree it is a lot about $ and convenience. I like just opening up a bag of food and putting it in a bowl. I guess I'm lazy. I assume you must feed RAW?


Misleading consumers by advertising a food as meat/poultry when in fact it's not
Splitting ingredients 
Since ingredients must be listed in decreasing order of weight you will see meat/poultry listed first but followed by ie corn & corn gluten meal or wheat, wheat flour, wheat bran which ends up being your #1 ingredient but won't be listed as such. 
More on ingredient listing here

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1661&aid=668


And about garanteed analysis ... have a good laugh with the following 


Dr. Meg Smart, of the Western College of Veterinary Medicine in Saskatoon ... brews a strange concoction, made of old leather boots, wood shavings and motor oil, which in theory could pass one of the minimum standards for pet food, even though it's inedible. Smart - an educator of veterinarians - also warns that many vets don't know as much about pet food as consumers think they do ...

quoted from http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/dogsbreakfast.html 
but also mentioned in the above link
" A pet food manufacturer made a mock product that had a guaranteed analysis of 10% protein, 6.5% fat, 2.4% fiber, and 68% moisture, similar to what you see on many canned pet food labels. The only problem, was that the ingredients were old leather work boots, used motor oil, crushed coal, and water! "

No wonder they're after our shoes 

And to answer your question, no, we don't feed raw, we rotate named meat/poultry kibble to which we add whole meat/poultry/veggies


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

As the OP, I have made the switch to Orijen Adult. I did not consider "old leather work boots, used motor oil, crushed coal, and water" but wonder if it might have been less work!

The change-over is going ok. I am taking it very slowly and using brown rice, boiled turkey, and canned pumpkin as the balance of her food (did not want to go back to the Purina after the problems she had). Stool tests came back negative, but her stool is still quite soft (in that it is sort of formed but still leaves a smear on the grass when cleaning up.) I am hoping that a slow change and ongoing pumpkin will firm things up a bit. I have also moved her to twice a day feeding.

It has been fascinating watching this thread grow and that it has over 1000 views! Thanks to all for the contributions.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

T&T said:


> There's lots of info out there on dog dental anatomy/digestive track and what diet it was intended for.
> And obviously you can't just switch a domesticated dog's grain based diet overnight & expect immediate results.
> It's not just about grain based diets, the quality of ingredients, the unnecessary artificial additives, sugars, colors etc etc
> 
> ...


I do agree that lots of pet foods have unnecessary, unhealthy, or cheap additives. That's absolutely something to look out for.

I also think that some pet food companies abuse the giant truck-sized loopholes in the FDA and AAFCO rules.


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

As an update, Mia is well along with her switch to Orijin Adult. Being the Golden she is, there are no issues with her liking the food! Right now we are wrapping up the first week of the gradual change-over, so she is still on a mix of boiled turkey, brown rice, pumpkin and Orijen. I will be starting another thread with a question about how quickly I can wrap this up as boiling up $10.00 worth of ground turkey is not a really viable approach long-term!

I am glad that this thread was so well read and discussed.


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## thr61 (Sep 22, 2009)

Final report: we are now 100% on Orijin and Mia is doing great on it. Soft stools are gone and she loves the food. Although it is a bit pricey, she is eating just one cup twice a day (she is in perfect shape at about 50 pounds) so it is not a huge overall expense. Still adding in the raw pumpkin, just to keep up the fiber (and she seems to like it a lot).

Glad this aspect of new ownership is behind me for now.


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