# August Field Training



## Swampcollie

Fall is creeping in here as well. The first maples and sumac are starting to show some color. August is packed with dog related events. We have two weekends of Game Fair to attend and then one more Junior Test to Judge. Game Fair is always fun if you like dogs. Last year 5,000 dogs attended over the six day run of the event. 

The goose season starts Sept 1st, so the fall hunting season is close at hand.


----------



## Alaska7133

What is Game Fair? Do you have a link?


----------



## gdgli

I got to the field early and ran some blinds with Buffy. My plan has worked well. Our handling as a team has improved.

We also did Phase Three of the Four Phase drill. This is working nicely for us.

We have formed a new training group which splintered off the original group. This is working quite well for all of us. We run drills, each handler runs the drill he/she wants. They are a great group and I couldn't ask for more.


----------



## FTGoldens

gdgli said:


> We have formed a new training group which splintered off the original group. This is working quite well for all of us. We run drills, each handler runs the drill he/she wants. They are a great group and I couldn't ask for more.


Fantastic! 
The value of a good training group cannot be overstated. 
So now, some really big things are expected!  
FTGoldens


----------



## gdgli

FTGoldens said:


> Fantastic!
> The value of a good training group cannot be overstated.
> So now, some really big things are expected!
> FTGoldens



Actually I am very happy with our progress. I think that we may be moving faster than I expected, although I like to take my time teaching. I'm pretty excited about doing more complex blinds.


----------



## Swampcollie

Alaska7133 said:


> What is Game Fair? Do you have a link?


www.gamefair.com


----------



## Alaska7133

Swampcollie,
Looks like fun! Wish we had something like that up here.


----------



## Alaska7133

Got out for a lovely day of training. 70F and 40% humidity! we couldn't ask for better. Group was bigger. FCR's, labs, spaniels, and goldens. Nice variety of styles to watch. Miss Lucy is overrunning her marks at 50 yards, but she needs to look wherever they are not where she wants them to be. Since we're running NAHRA next weekend their marks are shorter. Later we got past 100 yards and she was still overrunning, she's such a pistol with all her energy. She does just fine on marking and does pick up all her birds, but she has to swing back around and get them. Lots of doubles all day. She was very happy. Reilly was so good today, he didn't eat one duck! He also didn't drop a duck when he stopped to pee. I didn't run him on the long marks, he just doesn't see that far. But he enjoyed getting to retrieve and that's what it's all about. I'm keeping him on singles since his blindness is getting worse I don't want to make it any harder for him. I'm not quite sure what to do for him once he looses sight in his left eye. I guess really shorten up the distances and give him strong smelling stuff that he can use his nose to find? I want him to have success and not be frustrated. I also don't want to leave him at home.


----------



## Vhuynh2

I have been really discouraged with Molly lately but I think I'm getting over it. Now that we're focused so much on handling, I have come to realize exactly how much things need to be S-P-E-L-L-E-D out for her. She just cannot handle being wrong. I have learned from my trainers that I CAN simplify what I already thought was oversimplified. The response I received from them about our problems have been very helpful. One in particular, when working with me and Molly, never tells me to ask Molly to do anything he doesn't 110% know she can do. That's exactly what Molly needs. 

So, we have been training a lot on our own. We are doing drills, more memory/sight blinds. I have added a water memory blind. She likes to pop once she gets to shore but we're working on it and she's getting better. It's so funny, she is enjoying back pile across water a lot more than she does on land.

I was hoping to enter in the WCX this fall, but now I'm not so sure. She's only done one triple in her life and I don't know if I want to dedicate any extra time training for it. Handling is my priority right now. Plus, I have no idea if she has the ability to heel to the line in a test environment. I think she would be steady at the line for singles, but a triple with a flyer in a test environment? ..Maybe I should wait until next year.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Viv, one thing I've learned the hard way these last few months is pushing my girl when she wasn't ready was really detrimental to our relationship. I lost a lot of confidence in her because she wasn't progressing the way I was told she should be. My trainer was always complaining we were too slow and making me feel really bad about my dog and myself. I always read what the folks on here wrote about taking time for each individual dog but I didn't take it to heart since I worked alongside my pro every single day and he was pushing dogs out like no one's business. I went backwards on my own and I do things just differently than him. I learned that my golden doesn't train the same way as his labs. She likes to be shown exactly how to do things in a simplified way first and she has to have a lot of positive feedback. Yes, this slows it down but now she is doing much better and both of our confidences has been restored. In fact, lots of people have commented on how far she has come in a few months compared to the constant training with negative pressure the months before that. So what that she doesn't do things the way other dogs do? If she gets the same results than I do it the way that works for her. Now, I know that the only way to train my girl is the way that I feel is best. 
My point is don't get discouraged, it isn't a race and it might take longer than you thought but it will be worth it in the long run. Take if from a newbie like me, these folks on this forum know a lot and are right on when it comes to training our kinds of goldens.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

we have been taking a break on the handling drills and cold blinds. I focused so much on them that now her marking has kind of gone to the wayside. It has been so hot here that handling drills were the easiest to do with the heat. These last few days it has cooled off a lot (90) due to a tropical pressure so we've been working on marks. I'm really relieved, Katniss wasn't giving me crap in the heat when I'd work with a friend in the evenings once a week and I worried she was regressing but with the cooler temps she is back to normal and actually really frisky! She actually broke yesterday and today on honoring and she NEVER does that! She is just so excited to get out there so that makes me overjoyed to see that enthusiasm back....We've been working in a lot of high cover and along tree lines, those are her weaknesses. This next weekend coming up my aKC club is having its first training day since the summer so I'm glad for that!!! I can't wait for it to officially cool down, I'm tired of being out in 98 degree temps with all this humidity, its depressing for the dogs and for me...


----------



## Vhuynh2

Thanks Shelby. It is quite the learning process for both human and dog, isn't it? I have come to realize Molly is not the best dog to learn the game with or make mistakes with. I am now very careful with her and I know her limit. It sounds like our dogs are pretty similar. Molly also needs to be told she's doing it right. I wish she had more confidence. 

Yesterday, we went to an HRC training day. I decided to shoot at the blind for the first time and I probably should not have run it cold. There was a bush about 20 yards to the left and that was where Molly wanted to go. I did wonder how many times can I whistle sit her before she loses her confidence and breaks down on this blind? So I walk up when she's given me the hint that she might need more help, make my casts extremely clear (but thinking back I could've done what my trainer taught me to do and be even more clear). I'm smiling at her behind my whistle to let her know she's doing the RIGHT thing by sitting, and that I'm not sitting her because she's WRONG, which is the kind of mentality she has and I'm trying really hard to get rid of that. So, this is why I don't even want to think about the WCX right now. I don't want to throw too many things at her. We are doing singles right now and doubles only after she's done the marks as singles.


----------



## hotel4dogs

My trainer says that in general, with Goldens, the biggest thing out in the field is CONFIDENCE. He says they don't lack at all in intelligence, ability, or trainability. You just need to be sure you don't do anything that will hurt their confidence. Most Goldens (including Tito) like for their people to be pleased with them, and hate to be wrong.


----------



## lhowemt

hotel4dogs said:


> My trainer says that in general, with Goldens, the biggest thing out in the field is CONFIDENCE. He says they don't lack at all in intelligence, ability, or trainability. You just need to be sure you don't do anything that will hurt their confidence. Most Goldens (including Tito) like for their people to be pleased with them, and hate to be wrong.


Intesting comment in light of the dual championship thread. I wonder if FT people go for labs so much more because their reduced sensitivity allows so much more room for "error" (for lack of a better word) by the trainer. They are emotionally tougher dogs, IMO having had both. Obviously the golden temperment won me over!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alaska7133

I think that's why you see young goldens parading their birds around to the gallery and judges when they return on a retrieve. They want everyone to be as pleased as they are.


----------



## hollyk

Or Vivian, Molly is the perfect first dog. 
She's going to make you understand each and every step along the way, how to break it down and teach it at any point. She'll make you be careful about pressure and have really good timing. She's going to make you a strong advocate for your dog. You will come in to a group train day saying this is what I need for my dog today. 
Just think how much you will know the next time around.  

(I'm a "the glass is half full" kinda gal.)


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

hotel4dogs said:


> My trainer says that in general, with Goldens, the biggest thing out in the field is CONFIDENCE. He says they don't lack at all in intelligence, ability, or trainability. You just need to be sure you don't do anything that will hurt their confidence. Most Goldens (including Tito) like for their people to be pleased with them, and hate to be wrong.


This is exactly it with Katniss! And when she was just starting out with the "easier" stuff it was fine although Kat was very slow and meticulous and that drove everyone nuts. I now realize she was slow so she'd do it all right, it wast because her drive wasn't there. As stuff got tougher my trainer only knew how to train hardheaded dogs and was really quite hard on my girl, though he felt he was easier on her than her other dogs. And I suppose he was since he wasn't frying her ass all the time. But with the goldens I've watched being trained, they find the mental intimidation much harder than anything. Kat's confidence was getting so beat down and so was mine that we were both shutting off. I just wanted to quit because I had a "loser" dog. I know now you can just not train goldens with the same mentality as you train other hunting dogs. They can't handle it. 
The plus side to it, though, is I've found that if I train Katniss the way she learns best I do NOT have to repeat the exercise over and over and over like some of the other breeds. Once a golden gets it, they get it. They are VERY smart!
I'm actually having much more fun training Katniss now. I like talking her through things, she really seems to understand English, lol. My old trainer said that either Katniss wasn't doing something because 1 she was lazy or 2 she was being defiant even though I felt like a lot of times she was confused but I did it his way because hey I'm new and he wasn't. Now, I can train with my gut and I'm on nobody's time but my own. I can shorten a blind or a mark if I want and I can tell her good in the middle of something if I want to without feeling like I'm going against my trainer. 
I just wish I'd listened to the folks on here a long time ago. Oh well, we are happy again and that is all that counts


----------



## gdgli

It has been said before, each dog is different, each breed is different. I have heard many say that Goldens mature a little more slowly than some other breeds. (Quoting a FT Judge, owner of a Golden: "I have a terrific Derby dog. Problem is he is three years old.")

Buffy can take a big correction but if she gets corrected when there was confusion, she's done. Even a no when she does wrong because she is confused is enough to ruin the day. I also take my time in training. I like to build confidence. I like to be clever in teaching. And I have learned how to use attrition.


----------



## Vhuynh2

hollyk said:


> Or Vivian, Molly is the perfect first dog.
> She's going to make you understand each and every step along the way, how to break it down and teach it at any point. She'll make you be careful about pressure and have really good timing. She's going to make you a strong advocate for your dog. You will come in to a group train day saying this is what I need for my dog today.
> Just think how much you will know the next time around.
> 
> (I'm a "the glass is half full" kinda gal.)



How funny, Sandy basically said the exact same thing to me yesterday and she used you and Winter as an example. I'll take your guys' word for it.


----------



## gdgli

I met a friend today and we trained in the rain. But we had a good day. We were working with birds and they didn't stink.

We started with a double on land. Then Buffy honored while Cocoa worked.
Next we went to water. We ran two cold blinds in a pond. I am very lucky. Buffy took every handle. OK, the lines weren't perfect but it is something I will work on. I next had her honor while Cocoa did a single in water. She did well and I am very happy with her progress.

We will now be stretching out her blinds on land. We had a very nice day running blinds on Friday. I am very tempted to push her, test her handling but I prefer to take my time. 

Somebody said a short success is better than a long failure. That's how I feel.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

sounds great, G. Especially the honor on water!


----------



## hotel4dogs

some really great stuff in this thread, about Goldens, training, and confidence.


----------



## gdgli

MillionsofPeaches said:


> sounds great, G. Especially the honor on water!


Buffy is not a breaking dog. Of course every dog will break if given the right circumstances. She has been steady on her marks. The honor...Well I said it's time, she must know what I want, now it's time to let her know there is no choice in the matter. She shifted while the working dog was setting up and I was able to correct her for it. Then when Cocoa hit the water, training partner said "Honoring dog is excused" I quickly commanded heel and turned away while keeping my eyes on her.

I will now work on training this pattern.


----------



## boomers_dawn

gdgli said:


> It has been said before, each dog is different, each breed is different. I have heard many say that Goldens mature a little more slowly than some other breeds. (Quoting a FT Judge, owner of a Golden: "I have a terrific Derby dog. Problem is he is three years old.")


I LOVE this quote! This month's thread is perfect for me, for MY confidence.

I've been discouraged with our progress lately. To be fair, Gladys still can't wear the collar and acts like a free agent without it, so even though she should be working on MH, WCX, and qual stake for our golden club fun trial, that's on hold - she can't work on blinds and her creeping and whining are counterproductive to multiples.

Dee Dee is still a distractible little puppy, despite how great I thought she was doing. 

So we had a 2 week vacation from training where we've been doing focus, obedience, play games, go hiking, swimming, and I signed them up for dock diving with our golden club.

Yesterday we went hiking and worked on sit whistles. I knew Gladys would sit on the whistle and Dee Dee would follow her lead, and it worked, at good distances.

Today we went back to training. Not because I wanted to or cared, but one of our group members flunked a test because the marks were hard, his dog was inexperienced, and he was in a tough handling situation. He wanted to work on something specific, asked me to train with them, so I agreed, to help them, figuring we would just do singles and get the girls some exercise. 

The girls did such a great job with their singles today. They were focused, paid attention, marked well, ran fast, tried hard. It was exciting seeing them do so well and the first time I remember having fun in a long time. I think we'll continue to work on singles for all our confidences.

He tried to get me to do the singles as a triple with Gladys at the end, but after his dog screwed up the triple I said "We're not doing this, I'm ending on success". He agreed.

Dee Dee went charging him and I blew the whistle and she sat!

So after the land series, he talked me into doing a couple water marks at a nearby pond. The edges of the pond were really mucky. I can't throw that far so, even though he told me to just go to the end and it lands where it lands, I tried to walk out as far as I could and got stuck in the mud! Both my legs sunk to my knees and I couldn't move! It was like quicksand! Like those old episodes of Gilligan's Island!

I made the mistake of pulling one leg out before the boot, then the boot got stuck. I was tugging and tugging and ended up crawling around on all 4s in the swamp trying to dig my boot out. I ended up having to noodle my hand underneath the sole to get it out. He looked at me like *** is she doing? After his dog came back he came over and was like "why did you go out there?" so I said "because I thought I could."

He looks at me, and anyone who has ever trained with dog skool teecher will completely understand the straight face and dry delivery of "See what happens when you don't listen to me?"

So there it is kids, see what happens when you don't listen to dog skool teecher. ROTFL. I was laughing so hard and he took a hilarious picture of me looking like a swamp thing.

I changed our sig pic too, get these 2 off the couch! I don't know when we're going training again and to be honest, it's not like a burning priority this year.


----------



## Claudia M

There is no doubt goldens think more than labs or even flatcoats. Their desire to please sometimes gets the best out of them. I was told that in the last two weeks by two pros, one in a good way and one in a bad way. 
Over a week ago when the pro told me to send Rose in the water after the bumpers left there I thought he was crazy because she has never done blinds. He told me that "she has a great desire to please and great marking ability; build on that and you never know how far she will take you."
Yesterday at training during the second session we had steep water shore. I knew the moment I saw it that Rose will not plunge into it. She is fairly new to water and all her water entries have been step in and then swim. The pro with our training group said to give it a try. Sure why not. Duck goes into the water and Rose proceeds to go but puts the breaks on when she sees that steep step to get in. I walk her to an area where it is not that steep but still high, she goes in. Pro says to go back to the line, I did not understand him so I talked to him. Rose heard me and she came back towards me. I looked at her and immediately I remembered what the first pro told me. Never speak at the line, be quiet until the dog in well on its way. I give Rose a back and she goes back to the duck. So we are back at the line. The set up would have required an angle entry/jump into the water. Way too much. Angle entry stepping in yeah but not jumping in. The pro asks me if Rose will bring the duck back if he throws it. I wanted to say: No she will not, she has only done 4 other retrieves that day and each time she brought the duck nicely into a heel. The question was not if she will bring it back, the question was will she jump into the water. She did not jump, she actually figured how to cautiously get her front legs in and then her back legs down there and go and get it. At that point the pro turns around and makes the comment "She goes because she loves you not because she wants to." Needless to say I was ticked off. 
I took her to the car and went to quietly vent off to my husband. We both decided we will let them rest in the car for another hour or until everyone leaves and then take them both outside and give them some fun bumpers off the shore. 
I told him just to hold Rose with a "No bird" and let her watch Darcy jump in and get it. After the second bumper Rose wanted to go so bad. Still did the third for Darcy. Then we threw the bumper with both of them loose. Darcy was jumping in, Rose was again cautiously walking in. Of course Darcy got the bumper first. I threw a second for Rose as she was swimming back. Then it was Darcy's time to "honor" - I put that in quotation marks because it takes four people to hold her down in order for her to ummmm "honor". This time Rose goes in with speed, cautious step and plunge in. Alternated between the girls a couple more times and then we did some fun bumpers on land to dry them off a bit. 
The worst thing I could have done to Rose that day was go home disappointed. No matter how much I would hide it she would know. We ended the day with a big success and I knew she was happy and proud of herself.


----------



## gdgli

It sounds like Rose just needs more time around water.
DON'T GIVE UP!


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

OH my gosh!!! You really can write, I was totally picturing you in the mud and goop trying to get out. I think I might have panicked a bit! I hate to say it but your story made me laugh 

Claudia, I wonder if you had my trainer telling you that? That was one of his favorite phrases, your dog does this to please you not because she wants to.


----------



## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> It sounds like Rose just needs more time around water.
> DON'T GIVE UP!


No, the thing with Rose is that she does not take long to learn something. 

As we were doing the fun bumpers in the water she comes with the bumper dripping water, holding it nicely and she turns her butt. Uhhhh-ohh do I see something red also dripping? Yup she was in heat. No wonder she was tired and a bit scatterbrain, we left the house at 6am and did not make it back until 6pm. 
I spent yesterday afternoon apologizing to facebook members of the club who were there for not knowing until after everyone left that there was a girl in heat during the training. 

Shelby, hahaha, I doubt it. When I started training again in the field at the end of May I decided to only follow three people's advise. They are pretty similar in training methods and approaches. One of them is the first pro I was talking about who pointed to me Rose's attributes and how to build on them from there. 

LOL, I rather her step into the water than leap onto a log or stick.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

I agree with you about that! I thought those body launches were cool until one day at a big training day that my pro was giving one of the dogs launched onto a stick. It was so scary and from that day forward I count my blessings that Kat is more careful than other dogs.


----------



## gdgli

Vhuynh2 said:


> I have been really discouraged with Molly lately but I think I'm getting over it. Now that we're focused so much on handling, I have come to realize exactly how much things need to be S-P-E-L-L-E-D out for her. She just cannot handle being wrong. I have learned from my trainers that I CAN simplify what I already thought was oversimplified. The response I received from them about our problems have been very helpful. One in particular, when working with me and Molly, never tells me to ask Molly to do anything he doesn't 110% know she can do. That's exactly what Molly needs.
> 
> So, we have been training a lot on our own. We are doing drills, more memory/sight blinds. I have added a water memory blind. She likes to pop once she gets to shore but we're working on it and she's getting better. It's so funny, she is enjoying back pile across water a lot more than she does on land.
> 
> I was hoping to enter in the WCX this fall, but now I'm not so sure. She's only done one triple in her life and I don't know if I want to dedicate any extra time training for it. Handling is my priority right now. Plus, I have no idea if she has the ability to heel to the line in a test environment. I think she would be steady at the line for singles, but a triple with a flyer in a test environment? ..Maybe I should wait until next year.


A few comments. 

I recently started training with someone who has a MH dog. I never thought too much of him but once I saw him train I had to compliment him on how well his dog handled, far better than some of the "experts" in our group. He told me "Baby steps. No need to rush. I work slower than the others, I take my time and give the dog lots of success".

If you don't think you are ready for WCX then you probably aren't. However it doesn't mean that you can't get ready. Take a step back. Have someone video you. Pinpoint exactly where your problems are and drill those aspects. Drill efficiently and you will not waste your time.

Now for some specifics. She's done only one triple? That's a problem. Better get on it. You don't know if she will heel? Problem but I think something that can be addressed easily enough. You THINK that she would be steady? Biggest problem. Dog has the opportunity to break 6 times. 

Popping? The seasoned trainers on here should weigh in on this. My opinion is that popping is something that many trainers unintentionally encourage. 

In any event good luck.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Yes, we have quite a bit to work on. Steadiness in training is not an issue at all. A test, especially on new grounds, gets her really excited. The plan was to test her steadiness as test dog in Seasoned next April at my club's hunt test, lol. To be honest, I had completely forgotten about the WCX. We finished junior in May and I was so relieved that we can now really focus on handling and not worry about tests for at least another year. I didn't want to worry about her losing her marking, although we are doing lots of singles.

She pops when she gets to shore because the pile has always been at the shore until recently. I have been putting the pile farther up the shore with a big white bucket to pull her up.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Tito has a very aggressive water entry, and it does scare me. He's impaled a back foot on a stick. 
I always check the water's edge carefully at hunt tests, and so far, haven't seen anything that was a worry.


----------



## hollyk

Vhuynh2 said:


> Yes, we have quite a bit to work on. Steadiness in training is not an issue at all. A test, especially on new grounds, gets her really excited. The plan was to test her steadiness as test dog in Seasoned next April at my club's hunt test, lol. To be honest, I had completely forgotten about the WCX. We finished junior in May and I was so relieved that we can now really focus on handling and not worry about tests for at least another year. I didn't want to worry about her losing her marking, although we are doing lots of singles.
> 
> She pops when she gets to shore because the pile has always been at the shore until recently. I have been putting the pile farther up the shore with a big white bucket to pull her up.


Perfect.
I wonder if it would help to give her a "back" also as she hits that edge to push her though until she gets it.


----------



## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito has a very aggressive water entry, and it does scare me. He's impaled a back foot on a stick.
> I always check the water's edge carefully at hunt tests, and so far, haven't seen anything that was a worry.


That is exactly what a flatcoat owner said. She does not like them jumping in; Darcy is the same way, she loves water. But she did witness a dog jump on top of a log and needing surgery. 

This is exactly the place- you can see how deep the shore is and the trees and sticks in the middle.


----------



## Maxs Mom

Gabby has a HUGE water entry and it can scare the bajeebers out of me. In fact our last hunt test water was a stick pond. In my opinion, dangerous because they were close to shore. I took Gabby to waters edge for the first mark, that's kinda her clue don't launch. However for the second I don't know if I did or not. Nerves were playing here, our SH was on the line. I just don't remember and I didn't the minute the test was over. What I do remember was Gabby leaping into the water and landing on a stump. A collective gasp was audible from the gallery. She got distracted but got her duck and did a lovely job on her blind. Leaving the line after the honor, I asked a friend to help me go over her to make sure she was alright. I remember the stump and little else except passing. 

My husband runs her HRC and they are famous for stick ponds. The good news they do a lot of running from a platform and since Gabby's not used to that, she's cautious. She is a smart dog if her psycho side doesn't kick in. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## hotel4dogs

our first SH test, water


----------



## Maxs Mom

hotel4dogs said:


> our first SH test, water



That was less sticks than Gabby's stick pond. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alaska7133

We have horrid peat bogs. The dogs are chest deep trying to wade/swim through it and climb over clumps of grass to the next section of peat. The dogs get incredibly tired. Last NAHRA test was particularly nasty. Scared many dogs severely. I took Lucy swimming a couple days later and she didn't want to get back in the water, it took some coaxing. I think you can scare a dog and make them not want to pick something up, go through brush or swim in muck. Hank said he had problems for quite some time after his girl got spurred by pheasant. I will pass on the next test that has a peat bog, it's just not worth the chance that Lucy and Reilly will be scared.


----------



## gdgli

I have no stick ponds nearby. I need one to train in. At one HT we had a water series that had cedar stumps sticking up throughout the whole pond. If I can't find a pond like this I am going to drag in my own sticks and pound them into the mud.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Went training after work. It sucked. 

Dee Dee needed help on 2 of 3 marks. 

Gladys ran around like a squirrel on 2 of 3 marks, which it was too hot for. 
Tried to handle her but she wouldn't listen. 
I should have quit then and not done the last mark. 
But it was short so I thought we would end on success.
Instead she ended up across a 300 yard field at the tree line not listening and refusing to come in. I finally walked out, got her to sit and stay, picked up the dang dokken myself along the way, put the leash on her and brought her to the car on leash.

I'm pretty sure I was the only one who learned anything.
They set up long marks. One was 188 yards, one probably about 160, the last I measured was 56. But the bird placement was tough. The field was mowed in the middle with high cover around the edges. So if the dogs got into the open field, they wanted to open it up and go all the way to the treeline.

The first mark, 188 yards, went angle sharp back so it was almost an outthrow (opposite of in-throw) behind a clump of high cover. One of the others was talking about a false horizon, I really have no idea what he was referring to but he said they don't see where it lands so I just took his word for it.

The second mark was about 160, left to right, straight throw, past 2 rows of cover in front of a light colored autumn olive bush. Dee Dee hit a wall at the second patch of cover and circled to the edge and back. Gladys blew past it to the far treeline. The others said the more experienced dogs knew to mark the light bush. 

The 3rd mark was in the middle of the field, angle back to the edge of an autumn olive bush at the edge of the cover that became mowed grass. I think the purpose was once they busted through the cover, they wanted to open it up into the field. Landing next to an autumn olive compounded the problem, I think, because dogs don't want to run into something, and I'm sure they all know autumn olive has prickers on it, we've all gotten prickled enough times to know that.

I moved way up for Dee Dee to make the distances for the far marks around 80 and 65 - the 65 was shorter than we normally do, but with the cover it was a junior mark and she still couldn't do it. 

The entire exercise illustrated for me I need to dumb down our singles even further than just shortening the distances and remove some of the master concepts the others are setting up, at least for Dee Dee. The problem is, I don't even recognize them until they've given me problems. I guess I'm learning but it sucks and especially if my dogs don't learn anything. :bawling:


----------



## hotel4dogs

I feel your pain. That's one thing I've always had trouble with, some marks that look easy give the dogs a really hard time, and some marks that look scary the dogs have no problems with at all.


----------



## gdgli

hotel4dogs

When I see a dog fail I try to find out why. That is the value of having my mentor, he's had a lot of years at this. I also like to analyze and see for myself. It helps to gain some perspective and give you an idea on what to train for.


----------



## Claudia M

Dawn, Rose gave me a puzzle this past Saturday at training. I am still trying to figure out why. The set up was Long mark in heavy cover angled away from the working station. Rose goes out, gets into the tall weeds (phew she passed the wall) gets right pass the working station in a very nice straight line to the bird, and then.....she popped. She turns around, sits and waits for me to handle her. I could barely see her head in the grass but I knew she could see me. I started by putting both hands in front of me when the pro said "don't you move", he told the helper to distract her with a "hey hey" and she turned around and went past the working station and got it. 

I guess I have concentrated so much on water lately and not enough land; more so not enough marks that were thrown past the working station (thrower).


----------



## gdgli

Had a nice training day yesterday. We are stretching out our distance for blinds. I need to build confidence just a little bit.

We finished the Four Phase drill and will now be working on introducing distractions. 

Many thanks to my new training group


----------



## Alaska7133

I feel pretty lucky to get to train with a variety of breeds. Last night it was labs, goldens, FCRs, and a chessie. All have different styles. The labs I train with are all show labs, which actually have more drive than you would guess.

I've been working hard on stopping Reilly from eating birds. He is doing well. I've been using a low nick, 1.5, if I see him start to slow down. It's helped a bunch and he hasn't eaten a bird in a week. So we'll get there. He's using his one good eye to mark, so he turns his head at a bit of an odd angle to see with his right eye on left hand marks. His distances are a bit off when he goes out for a retrieve. He's a bit short. But his nose has been making up for it. I wonder if we can continue to do NAHRA next year if he completely looses his site? I big concern is water since it's hard for a dog with 2 good eyes to see birds in water sometimes.

Miss Lucy is working on off leash heeling to the line and steadiness on doubles without a leash. Thankfully e-collars were invented and there is hope. Now if I could just get her to stop parading with a bird all over the place! Her issue last night was over-running every bird by like 25 yards or so. Many dogs were doing that last night. Excitement maybe? Not sure.


----------



## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> Her issue last night was over-running every bird by like 25 yards or so. Many dogs were doing that last night. Excitement maybe? Not sure.


Since every dog was running that much past the mark could it be that some old birds may have been thrown 25 years past the AOF


----------



## hotel4dogs

when Tito has a hard time with a mark in training, Dan always tells me which of his other dogs (I know most of them pretty well) had a hard time with the same mark. Sometimes his GRHRCH dogs will have had a hard time with it, too, and then I try to analyze why. Other times, Tito will nail a mark and Dan will tell me that even his Grand dogs had a problem with it....then I feel good  .
We have no training this week or next  . Took the monster boy swimming yesterday and today, didn't do any training, just threw fun bumpers off the pier and let him play.



gdgli said:


> hotel4dogs
> 
> When I see a dog fail I try to find out why. That is the value of having my mentor, he's had a lot of years at this. I also like to analyze and see for myself. It helps to gain some perspective and give you an idea on what to train for.


----------



## hotel4dogs

got a chuckle out of this one :



Claudia M said:


> Since every dog was running that much past the mark could it be that some old birds may have been thrown* 25 year*s past the AOF


----------



## Claudia M

Rose went into heat this past Saturday at training and Darcy just started as well. It looks like the only training we are going to get for awhile will be at the cabin. Or we may just have to go train when no boys are around.


----------



## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> got a chuckle out of this one :


yeah, the problem of making a quick posts while at work.


----------



## AmbikaGR

I have been lax in posting here but we have been out training by ourselves. Basically working on handling drills. 
Oriana has really been doing well. Every now and then she HAS to do something to make me say "***!!!" but not too often and she IS Oriana after all. Started adding some small factors in to the blinds on water and she got the idea ppretty quickly. Made big strides on water bilnds and we will go this week with the group to different water to see how well it translates there. And we also need to do some marks.
Brooke has not moved along quite as fast and we went back and revisited the T to refresh her memory that "over" means over and NOT come in to me on water. She seemed to get it Wednesday and it carried over to water so I was extremely happy. The best part is her WANTING to go to water. We had a serious issue two years ago when the "stick monster" got her under water. She lost all confidence and we struggled getting her to go in. Last year was more of the same although it did get better at times. Now she is actually anticipating going and breaking once in a while. And seeing it is on blinds I have not stopped her, just let her go for a while and then correct with a cast if needed.


----------



## gdgli

We got to the field early. We did some longer blinds. Then Walking Baseball. When my group finally showed up we ran two doubles, first one long (150 and 200 yds.), second shorter (50 and 70 yds.). 

My training plan is going well. And someone new joined us today.


----------



## Vhuynh2

It is official, Molly cannot do a real triple (she ran her first triple as singles first). We didn't have the white coats but I couldn't get her to look out at the middle (longest) bird before or even after the birds were thrown. After she picked up the outside birds she was still locked on to those stations. I ended up walking her halfway out to send her. We've got work to do.

Off topic but I am so mad at my own carelessness. I have pretty much lost all my bumpers! I leave them on the ground next to the car, forget about them, and drive away. I keep checking the unofficial lost and found box but of course they never end up there.


----------



## gdgli

Vhuynh2 said:


> It is official, Molly cannot do a real triple (she ran her first triple as singles first). We didn't have the white coats but I couldn't get her to look out at the middle (longest) bird before or even after the birds were thrown. After she picked up the outside birds she was still locked on to those stations. I ended up walking her halfway out to send her. We've got work to do.
> 
> Off topic but I am so mad at my own carelessness. I have pretty much lost all my bumpers! I leave them on the ground next to the car, forget about them, and drive away. I keep checking the unofficial lost and found box but of course they never end up there.


Don't give up. Simplify, repeat, don't forget the white jackets, and don't forget to let the dog see the stations when you get to the line, i.e if you are training for WC/WCX. Singles are OK. For WC/WCX training with white jackets is a must.

What were your distances to the guns?


----------



## hollyk

Vivian,
Remember Molly is learning how to handle and marking goes down the tubes. I would just support her by making sure there are gunners out there to help her and on that third mark I would automatically have the gunner step out.


----------



## Vhuynh2

gdgli said:


> Don't give up. Simplify, repeat, don't forget the white jackets, and don't forget to let the dog see the stations when you get to the line, i.e if you are training for WC/WCX. Singles are OK. For WC/WCX training with white jackets is a must.
> 
> What were your distances to the guns?


We tried to make them 80, 100, 60, but it was probably more like 70, 90, 60. I tried to show her the stations at the line, but she just couldn't see the middle or was too distracted by the outside stations.


----------



## Vhuynh2

hollyk said:


> Vivian,
> Remember Molly is learning how to handle and marking goes down the tubes. I would just support her by making sure there are gunners out there to help her and on that third mark I would automatically have the gunner step out.


What do you mean by step out? We did not have any holding blinds up.


----------



## hollyk

Even without holding blinds as you're trying to get her to look out for the 3rd mark have the gunner take a step or two toward the down mark.


----------



## K9-Design

Yep and when you do them as singles first, do them in the order that the dog will pick them up. So if the birds are going down in the triple left-middle-right, you'd do the singles in the order right, left, middle. I would space the marks out and make the middle one shorter until she can count to three.


----------



## FTGoldens

Vhuynh2 said:


> It is official, Molly cannot do a real triple (she ran her first triple as singles first). We didn't have the white coats but I couldn't get her to look out at the middle (longest) bird before or even after the birds were thrown. After she picked up the outside birds she was still locked on to those stations. I ended up walking her halfway out to send her. We've got work to do.


Molly WILL get there! 
You just need to work on her memory and to instill the habit of going for three (and later, four). [Am I safe in assuming that Molly does doubles without any problem?]
You have received some good suggestions. 
There is no magic bullet to get this done, so you may have to use several different techniques. I've got three more for you:
* For the bird that will be the last one retrieved, have THAT gunner throw the mark, let it hit the ground (make sure that Molly is watching the whole thing), then have the gunner go out and pick it up and return to the gunner station, THEN throw the triple and pick up the other two before getting that one thrown twice. I refer to this as "imprinting," but it may be called something else by others. 
* Another thing to try is to have that last-to-retrieve-bird way off to the side of the other two marks, which eliminates the potential for confusion and often makes that mark a bit easier. 
* Also, in most cases be sure to have the last-to-retrieve-bird thrown first, which gives you the benefit of the primacy-recency effect.
Each of these three tools has some benefit to helping the dog pick up a triple. It will "click" ... you will probably see the light come on when it does.
I used all of the above when one of my dogs was having a hard time with retired gunners; he was genuinely confused by the gunner's disappearance and just had no idea what to do. It took a while, but now it's not a problem. 
Also note: First doing the marks as singles is okay for a while, but don't over-do it ... that can eventually result in her believing that it's okay to return to an old fall.
Also, in your note, you mentioned that you couldn't get her to look out at the middle gun before or after it was thrown ... if that's the case, it should not have been thrown. It is imperative that the dog see the gunner before the mark is thrown AND to watch it being thrown. A simple "hey-hey" or the wave of an arm is generally sufficient. But if the dog is just learning that there may be three marks, it's not fair to have it thrown if the dog isn't looking at the gunner.
FTGoldens


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

had a training day with our club today. they have such great grounds, it was nice, we haven't worked in a long time in that environment since its been too hot. Also they have a tech pond and I was happy to use that. the girls did great on all of it except Katniss had a super hard time with a particular mark. We ran it from a mound that was about 4 or 5 feet high. The mark was 114 yards off so not that far but against a backdrop of two large trees. The first time it fell she didn't even leave on her name and that cued me in that she didn't see it. So I called her name again and she ran straight out and on and on way past the fall so I had to handle her. We ran it four times and each time she didn't see it. 
Now, her opthomologist said that anything past 100 yards and she would start to have trouble but normally if it is in an open area it is okay. But with the backdrop of trees she just can't seem to see it. She really suffers and the trees were about five feet back from the arc. 
I guess I just need to work on her going and taking my line despite seeing it because this is going to be standard at tests. Poor us, we are both blind as bats. 

At least I know what to work on but man I feel bad for her. Peaches had no issues with it. 
Kat's water was perfect and both of her blinds went well, though I shortened them since we are still new to the game. Although the first land blind she turned right after she took off and I sent her back. ON the water she did the same time but I nicked her and told her back so I knew she knew for sure why she got corrected. Other than that she took a straight line to the bank and then up the bank to the mark. I was pleased with that. 

All and all it was great to get back out there and its exciting knowing test season is about here!


----------



## K9-Design

MoP does Katniss have cataracts? So does Slater. What you describe sounds very much like what I have occasionally encountered with him. I find the hardest marks for him are either looking into the sun, OR thrown from a winger or dummy launcher so there is no throwing-type motion from the gun station. He really has to cue off the thrower's arm sometimes, especially with difficult backgrounds like a dark duck thrown against a treeline. It sucks but just be aware of her limitations, and you're exactly right, you will learn to recognize her signals of having seen the mark or not. Slater is NOT a creeper or terribly demonstrative in indicating he is ready to be sent so it can be difficult to know if he has actually seen the mark or not. If he takes off like a bullet, that's your sign LOL
However as you move along in your training you may want to occasionally practice where a gunner throws a bird before Katniss comes to the line, then you line up, signal for the gunner. The gunner calls, shoots and pretends to throw, but doesn't actually throw a bird. Send the dog anyways. If she has trouble going, she either needs a little force reminder or have the gunner help if she gets halfway out or more. The mark should be very obvious, no real factors or distance, the more experienced dogs will understand "Hey, the gunner's out there, I heard a noise, I was sent on my name, there should be a bird even if I didn't see it." The dogs eventually will know to hunt in the proper AOF by cuing off the gunner. This will save your butt in HTs if the dog happens to look off a mark just as the bird is thrown, and in instances like the above when the dog really was looking but for whatever reason didn't see the bird well. Best of luck,


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

oh wow, thanks, Anney. She doesn't have really bad eyes, she has juvenile cataracts and most of the time I don't even think about them. In fact, I forget until I realize it after the fact. The eye doc told me that when I'd notice them was anything outside of 100 yards but I don't really notice them even then UNLESS it is with a dark backdrop and a dark bird or bumper. And yes, she is the same way when I call her name she usually takes off so now I am really seeing how she reacts when she doesn't see them. 


That is really good advice and I will try this. The last mark the thrower did stay out there after he threw it and that helped her and she went right to it. Before that he was throwing the arc up high against the trees and it was landing pretty much down the trunk of the tree. To make it even harder for her, the line met up to a path half way down that curved past the area of the fall. She allowed herself to get sucked into and followed past since she never saw the bird in the first place. 

I'm going to try your advice and work on that. She needs to learn that even if she doesn't see it that she has to go anyway and take that line where I tell her. Once she gets there, the smell of the duck should help her. 

Its good to know that this hasn't stopped Slater! That is uplifting for me!


----------



## K9-Design

Sure thing  Yes Slater has juvenile cataracts (triangles) too. As long as I am aware of his limitations I can be aware of any impending trouble, but despite it he did very very well in field work. I think looking into the sun is the biggest issue, both on marks and if I have to handle on blinds with the sun at my back, it is hard for him to see my casts.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

oh man, I didn't even take that into consideration about my back to the sun.....I wonder if that is why some days she does great and others she doesn't and I can't figure out why. Poor girl, lol. 
I think the doctor said hers were diamonds shaped? For some reason that is ringing a bell. Let me go look on her form. 
yes, what she drew on the form looks like a triangle and she said they were on her posterior cortex. She said not likely progressive, which is a good thing  Maybe it was her regular vet that called them diamond shaped. I can't remember. I need to schedule her yearly eye check up soon.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Here it is, one of the guys posted on FB. It is mark 1. Although where I ran her from the arrow was more dead straight to the trunk of that tree not at that angle the arrow is showing. The bird kept landing right in front of the hay bale. It was super overcast outside too. The thrower would move right back behind the tree to hide after he threw. The second mark she had absolutely no problem with. I might go out to practice on Wednesday so I'm going to try what Anney suggested.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Thanks for all of the advice on teaching a triple. Now, what about the order of pick up when first learning? Does it matter?

FT-- yes, she does doubles without a problem.


----------



## FTGoldens

Vhuynh2 said:


> Thanks for all of the advice on teaching a triple. Now, what about the order of pick up when first learning? Does it matter?
> 
> FT-- yes, she does doubles without a problem.


Great on the doubles, so it's just that darn third bird. 

Order does not really matter ... EXCEPT when teaching by way of the three techniques that I mentioned in the post above. With those, respectively, you want her to get the Imprinted bird LAST, or the Off-to-the-side bird LAST, or the First bird thrown LAST ... that's because they should be the ones "stuck in her memory bank" and, hence, easier for her to remember. Because they are easier to remember, let's save them for last. 

I should have mentioned this in the earlier post ... you can certainly put all three techniques in your set ups, and I'd suggest doing so. We want Molly to become successful at picking up triples as quickly as we can, and that way she will sooner be doing so, i.e. it'll be old hat! Once she gets proficient at triples when the three techniques are combined in one set up, then change it up just a little bit by removing one of those techniques.

Once she routinely picks up three marks without you having to move up or otherwise help her out, the discussion about order of picking up can be the subject ... and there can be some GREAT discussion about that!

FTGoldens


----------



## hotel4dogs

to open up the discussion of order....just for fun....
What's everyone's preference? Outside-outside-inside? Longest mark last? Let the dog pick the order of all but the go-bird?


----------



## K9-Design

MillionsofPeaches said:


> oh man, I didn't even take that into consideration about my back to the sun.....I wonder if that is why some days she does great and others she doesn't and I can't figure out why. Poor girl, lol.
> I think the doctor said hers were diamonds shaped? For some reason that is ringing a bell. Let me go look on her form.
> yes, what she drew on the form looks like a triangle and she said they were on her posterior cortex. She said not likely progressive, which is a good thing  Maybe it was her regular vet that called them diamond shaped. I can't remember. I need to schedule her yearly eye check up soon.



Yep same thing as Slater, they call them triangles or sometimes they will draw it as an upside-down "Y"

If Slater is looking into the sun at my back and can't see my cast (or, if I'm too far away or wearing clothing that is hard to see), he typically will give me a few seconds of just staring at me after I've casted, then autocast himself in whatever direction he was already going. Clear sign he didn't see me cast.


----------



## hollyk

Ugh, out in the 2nd series of MH test today after surviving 3 no birds in the 1st. Pretty sure a strong handler would have gotten her though.


----------



## gdgli

Three no birds is a tough deal for many dogs. What was the reason for the no birds?


----------



## hollyk

gdgli said:


> Three no birds is a tough deal for many dogs. What was the reason for the no birds?


First time the flier fell behind the fliers station. The next two times the winger malfunctioned on the second mark. 
The fields have just been mowed. The grass is really short and there are big hay bales sitting out. I thought since the grass was so short that they would throw a long test, instead they threw a super tight test. My first and second marks fell 20-25 yards apart with a blind running between them. The third bird was thrown close and right out in front of you, a breaking bird. It was so close that it looked like a couple of the dogs with big creeps would be able to catch it. I had to handle because the falls were so close and she was dangerously close to the old fall. 

In the end we went out in the 2nd series on a short water mark that was thrown directly at you in a high arc. It fell behind a tall small island with no splash. It was the first bird down with a flier thrown from the same station right to left and a diversion thrown left to right in between the 1st and 2nd mark. The diversion landed in line with the 1st mark. In the judges briefing they said something like we know that first mark the in throw is a tough mark so you may not be marked down if you make a quick clean handle to it." Winter picked up the flier, then the diversion but I had to handle to the in line mark. It was not a quick clean handle. Her bird had fallen just behind the very top of the island. I handled her all around the base of that island but she couldn't figure out it was above her. I finally got her to take a back straight up and over it the island. She blew over the top and over the bird and end up on the land behind the island. The water is low and I don't think there was much water on the other side of the island between it and the land. I call her back, got her set up again in front, casted her over the island and this time whistle sat her on the tiny top and she finally got it. 
It was the last series of the day so I went to thank the judges for their time. As I approached one of them immediately said. "We talked a long time about your run, actually we talked about it twice, but in the end we just couldn't pass you though. The mistake that took you out wasn't all the whistles but the fact you waited too long to put the first one on her." 
So the test wasn't way over Winters skill set but I'm still learning how to handle a Master dog. :doh:
The third series today will be a big land/water test. I will be recreating it soon.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Holly I just think you are awesome...
Those no birds get the best of everyone.


----------



## gdgli

Holly

I just tried to diagram your series. Are you telling me that the third and first mark were in line, in essence an over-under? And the flyer station threw an umbrella double?

If I have it right this seems very challenging. I haven't seen over under in training or test setup but I haven't been to that many MH tests. 

Also to knock you out on handling too late---my take on this is one judge wanted to pass you and the other didn't so one caved.


----------



## gdgli

Holly

I am sure that you will have better luck in the future.


----------



## hollyk

Yes, 1 and 3 ended up in line. I'm not sure what an umbrella double is. 

That directly at you in mark has always been a tough one for Winter. To not get a splash with it or really even see it hit the ground made it tougher. Between the flier and the in line diversion she didn't remember the first mark. I did not expect to be called back. When I blew my first whistle I knew I should have blown it about 4 seconds sooner. Also before I finally got her to take a straight back cast, I had her sitting out front and gave her the same back and she skirted around the base. If I would have put an immediate whistle on her and tried again she probably would have taken it. 
Here is a stick drawing of the test.


----------



## gdgli

Umbrella double is a Momma Poppa double, double from the same station.

I think that this series was tough. I will check EE to see who passed.


----------



## hollyk

What do pass rates in Master run around the country? 
This year around here they have ranged from 18-44%.

My limited experience has been no really blood bath in one series but just each series taking it's toll. Yesterday 23 out of 35 went to the 2nd series. Forgot to ask how many went on to the 3rd.


----------



## Alaska7133

Interesting question, so I looked at our MH statistics up here. MH runs have between 5 and 11 dogs running. Pass rate is between 33 and 73%. But with so few dogs in a test, it's hard to know how hard the tests really are. Most of the dogs in those tests are the same dogs over and over again since our pool of dogs is so small. Holly fly up and run our tests next summer. So few dogs it's really fun. Lots of goldens here.

Yesterday's NAHRA hunt test had FCR's, a toller, a poodle, chessies, lots of goldens and labs. Very nice mix of breeds here.


----------



## hotel4dogs

They're all over the place here, also ranging from about 20% to about 80% (the 80% is an abomination, only one of those, most in the 50% range).


----------



## gdgli

Why was the 80% an abomination?


----------



## K9-Design

Pass rate overall for Master is roughly 45% but for UN-TITLED dogs (those earning legs toward their title) the pass rate is ~10%!


----------



## hotel4dogs

It was one of those things that throw the statistics way off...most were around 50%, but there was one that was an 80% pass rate. There was one at 20%, which I consider an abomination, too. Maybe I'm misusing the word.

edit to add....went and looked it up, way misusing the word, no wonder you asked!!




gdgli said:


> Why was the 80% an abomination?


----------



## Vhuynh2

hotel4dogs said:


> It was one of those things that throw the statistics way off...most were around 50%, but there was one that was an 80% pass rate. There was one at 20%, which I consider an abomination, too. Maybe I'm misusing the word.
> 
> edit to add....went and looked it up, way misusing the word, no wonder you asked!!



I think you mean "anomaly"?


----------



## Vhuynh2

I am so proud of my little Mo. We went to our HRC's training day and ran the seasoned land test as if it were a test. I even used the gun and sat on the bucket (I never sit on the bucket since I don't plan on running HRC). After I shot the first bird, Molly creeped up a whole body length so she did not notice me turning. After a few "heres" she finally heeled back and turned with me. I need to practice shooting more doubles, less singles. Her double was perfect, as I knew it would be. It was the blind I didn't have complete faith in, but she totally lined it. I can really see how our lining drills have helped. Then, we did a walk out. She heeled with me nicely and I shot the bird and forgot to whistle or tell her to sit. I looked down and no dog. She was 15 feet _behind_ me. She automatically sat when she heard the sound. We went over to the Finished water test and ran the outside birds as a double. She did great. I am very proud. I'm really hoping we can get it together on those water blinds by next spring.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

wow, Viv! That is great! It seems like you just started training a few months ago and already doing seasoned marks! that is fantastic!! It has taken me a whole year just to get Katniss' handling at a workable level. Molly sounds like a prodigy!


----------



## hotel4dogs

Yes! Yes!! That's the word I was looking for :doh:



Vhuynh2 said:


> I think you mean "anomaly"?


----------



## Vhuynh2

MillionsofPeaches said:


> wow, Viv! That is great! It seems like you just started training a few months ago and already doing seasoned marks! that is fantastic!! It has taken me a whole year just to get Katniss' handling at a workable level. Molly sounds like a prodigy!


No no no, we "officially" started field training March of last year!! We did some handling (baseball, back pile, lining drills, etc) in the fall but we didn't *really* start until after we finished Junior end of May this year. Prodigy.. I wish! Lol!!


----------



## Claudia M

With both girls in heat we decided to take them to the cabin and work there a little. We did some long long marks. They were a bit difficult for me as well as the bumpers fell down in the valley and I could not tell when they picked it up, and the dogs could no see me after the pick up until they came back up on the hill. They surprised me though! I made the mistake to hit the whistle and the echo got Rose confused at first, she popped, sat with the bumper in her mouth head towards me but could not see me and I could not see her, so I walked higher on the hill from the line until she saw me.


----------



## gdgli

The echoes mess up a dog. One place in Connecticut where some of us train and test is known for its echoes.


----------



## K9-Design

Finally got out and field trained this morning!
First we worked Bally on his "place" (mat) training -- he is doing really cute -- need to take a video. Then set up 3 marks on the L pond, short to long, ran puppies first then big dogs. Big dogs we set up two holding blinds at the line and did remote sends and honors. Slater had the misfortune of having to do a cold honor first and totally broke! LOL After that he was perfect on the remote stuff, I really cued him into everything so he knew if it was his turn or not, and he did great looking out at the gunner. We did a BIG water blind down the pond and well up on land, for having not done a blind in eons, Slater did pretty darn good. Even Fisher got to run the marks  Later on after baths and naps we did some obedience at the church before dinner. Good training day!


----------



## hollyk

K9-Design said:


> Pass rate overall for Master is roughly 45% but for UN-TITLED dogs (those earning legs toward their title) the pass rate is ~10%!


Hey, I was feeling pretty crummy until I read this. We're one for 3 and running a head of the curve. :


----------



## boomers_dawn

Anney's stats do give us all hope, and don't forget the more experienced handlers have a leg up too so we'll get better and better.

We trained yesterday with flyers.

Dee Dee did all singles, she didn't stop at the decoys, but her head was on a swivel checking them out on the way there and back, it messed up her marking. She didn't want to pick up her flapper, which I don't get, since she's done it many times before. I guess just keep exposing her to decoys and flappers.

Gladys did singles then we added a mark and dog skool teecher said to do the same triple they did with an out of order flyer. I said NO. Last time we did singles she couldn't even do that. He said yes, she's doing the triple, he would coach me through it. So we did the triple. She has tap dancey feet and her new thing is to stand up on her hind legs so she ended up one pace forward, I had to say heel and sit. And wait 30 seconds for quiet before sending... she did remember everything and did a good job.


----------



## Alaska7133

This is a photo of the pond we failed on Saturday and failed at last year. I freak myself out every time I see this pond and we fail because the pond scares me, not because my dog can't do the work. Lucy is capable of running this pond but it's just a nasty pond. It's a peat bog, not mud. The grass you see is not solid, it's mush that the dogs sink into if they climb onto a clump. So after failing miserably on Saturday, I found another pond near my house with similar conditions on Sunday to train at. I took a couple of bumpers and made sure Lucy was super happy and excited to go. I threw the first ones close and let her get used to the peat muck. She had some difficultly struggling up the bank, but each time she got better. Then I continued to throw farther so she had to work her way around and over the clumps and sticks. It was hard work, but she did every retrieve quite well. So for the problem, it was my confidence in my dog, not my dog's inability to do the retrieves. That is really hard to say when you are the one holding your dog back, not your dog.


----------



## Claudia M

Not very good with photo editing. I took a pic from the line and then took an angled pic that somewhat shows the hills and the dips where the bumpers ended up. 

I am not quite sure how to set it up in the future Maybe set it up where they go down in the hill and then back up so both the bumpers and the handler are visible. The terrain has hills and undulations all over the place - good workout  . Hopefully "the boys" can get more area cleared up this weekend so we can have more to work with.


----------



## FTGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> to open up the discussion of order....just for fun....
> What's everyone's preference? Outside-outside-inside? Longest mark last? Let the dog pick the order of all but the go-bird?


Okay, I'll take the bait!
This is a huge question and there are many differences of opinion. As you noted, I know of pros who always, well nearly always, insist on outside-outside-middle; then there are pros who pick up the birds in the order of distance, except the go-bird. But then, there are times when the "rule" is rightly thrown out the window, such as when a mark that you would generally want to pick up second (let's assume the test is a triple) is retired and there's a stand-out gunner at the other bird ... you'd better get that stand-out bird second, at least most of the time. 
And then what about your dog ... what if he is wanting a particular bird, but you want to get them in a different order; can you really change that dog's mind? [My experience, at least with one of my pretty good dogs is to trust the dog ... he'd get the one he wants anyway ....]
I train my dogs to pick up whatever bird I point them at, so in training, I switch up the order. When at a trial, I'll try to pick them up in whatever order I believe will give me the best chance of getting through the test. If I have the good fortune of not running early, I'll watch as many dogs as I can and see which order seems to be most successful. Sometimes the angle of the sun can cause you to pick them up in a different order than they had been picked up by earlier dogs; or the direction of the wind; or the intrusion of shadows; or if I want more push or more pull off of a particular mark; or if I want less push or pull off of a particular mark; or etc., etc., etc.
So for me, the truism as to order is ... it depends.

FTGoldens


----------



## hotel4dogs

Thanks for the reply, it's something that's in my mind as we are preparing to run MH. 
It seems there are times that my boy *really* wants a particular bird, and I let him take it. Do you see any harm in that?
In our WCX at National, on water, I even sent him for the memory bird first and then let him go back and pick up the go-bird. It was the right choice for him, as the memory bird was in a very, very tough location and the go-bird was in open swimming water.
I like your thought of trying to watch other dogs run and see what would be the best order.




FTGoldens said:


> Okay, I'll take the bait!
> This is a huge question and there are many differences of opinion. As you noted, I know of pros who always, well nearly always, insist on outside-outside-middle; then there are pros who pick up the birds in the order of distance, except the go-bird. But then, there are times when the "rule" is rightly thrown out the window, such as when a mark that you would generally want to pick up second (let's assume the test is a triple) is retired and there's a stand-out gunner at the other bird ... you'd better get that stand-out bird second, at least most of the time.
> And then what about your dog ... what if he is wanting a particular bird, but you want to get them in a different order; can you really change that dog's mind? [My experience, at least with one of my pretty good dogs is to trust the dog ... he'd get the one he wants anyway ....]
> I train my dogs to pick up whatever bird I point them at, so in training, I switch up the order. When at a trial, I'll try to pick them up in whatever order I believe will give me the best chance of getting through the test. If I have the good fortune of not running early, I'll watch as many dogs as I can and see which order seems to be most successful. Sometimes the angle of the sun can cause you to pick them up in a different order than they had been picked up by earlier dogs; or the direction of the wind; or the intrusion of shadows; or if I want more push or more pull off of a particular mark; or if I want less push or pull off of a particular mark; or etc., etc., etc.
> So for me, the truism as to order is ... it depends.
> 
> FTGoldens


----------



## K9-Design

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks for the reply, it's something that's in my mind as we are preparing to run MH.
> It seems there are times that my boy *really* wants a particular bird, and I let him take it. Do you see any harm in that?


Yes and no. Generally IN TRAINING the handler picks the bird and in a TEST the dog picks the bird. In Master it is a huge step up in the coach-player relationship between you and the dog. Very few coaches allow their freshman quarterback to call an audible  In general you should expect to run the show and dictate to the dog which bird to pick up, and your consistent training should mean he generally knows which bird is going to be next and you are both on the same page. There are always exceptions, and that is your job to know when it is OK to let him select and when it will give you an advantage (i.e. he wants the harder memory bird first -- well by all means let him have it) vs. when it will let the dog take the reins and doom your success (lemme get that real short memory bird and forget where the long go bird went down).



> I like your thought of trying to watch other dogs run and see what would be the best order.


When you run Master this is so so so important. Hopefully for your first few tests you will not have to run early. The most important thing is to really sit and watch every dog you can, and see what the trends are. If they overshoot that memory bird will they recover, or do they need to be handled? Are they taking that slot on the blind or skirting around? Are they winding the bird if they get to the left or right of it? Your dog will probably experience the same factors out there, so it will serve you well to know based on the behaviors of the other dogs, if you are in trouble and need to handle or if your dog will most likely recover.


----------



## hollyk

Barb it's funny you should mention this, I have been pretty much taught outside, outside, inside. Along with this we drill no ing off marks and running blinds. But within the last month or so my Pro has been speaking to me that I really need to pay attention to switching it up and start picking up out of order more in training. It will give me the option to get a bird out of the way and open up the test or simplify a blind. 
Recently in a test I was able to no off a flier and pick up the first bird down. I think it saved me a handle and a messy blind. I was pretty proud she pulled off a flier for me.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Thanks Anney, all makes perfect sense. 

It seems like around here most of the pros run first in the tests, as they generally need to be someplace else or are running 75% of the dogs entered. Of course with my luck, that won't happen when I enter :doh:



K9-Design said:


> Yes and no. Generally IN TRAINING the handler picks the bird and in a TEST the dog picks the bird. In Master it is a huge step up in the coach-player relationship between you and the dog. Very few coaches allow their freshman quarterback to call an audible  In general you should expect to run the show and dictate to the dog which bird to pick up, and your consistent training should mean he generally knows which bird is going to be next and you are both on the same page. There are always exceptions, and that is your job to know when it is OK to let him select and when it will give you an advantage (i.e. he wants the harder memory bird first -- well by all means let him have it) vs. when it will let the dog take the reins and doom your success (lemme get that real short memory bird and forget where the long go bird went down).
> 
> 
> 
> When you run Master this is so so so important. Hopefully for your first few tests you will not have to run early. The most important thing is to really sit and watch every dog you can, and see what the trends are. If they overshoot that memory bird will they recover, or do they need to be handled? Are they taking that slot on the blind or skirting around? Are they winding the bird if they get to the left or right of it? Your dog will probably experience the same factors out there, so it will serve you well to know based on the behaviors of the other dogs, if you are in trouble and need to handle or if your dog will most likely recover.


----------



## K9-Design

Yeah don't bet on it. It's all up to the marshal. If a pro has one junior dog and 10 master dogs, he's going to junior first if it's up to me.


----------



## Alaska7133

Here's a few hunt test judging questions:

1. Can a judge, judge a dog they bred but sold as a puppy?
2. Can a judge, judge a dog they own but is being run by someone else?
3. Can a judge, judge a dog they professionally trained in the past?

Just curious where the line is.


----------



## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> Here's a few hunt test judging questions:
> 
> 1. Can a judge, judge a dog they bred but sold as a puppy? *Yes*
> 2. Can a judge, judge a dog they own but is being run by someone else? *No*
> 3. Can a judge, judge a dog they professionally trained in the past? *Yes*
> 
> Just curious where the line is.


*A wild guess!!!*!


----------



## K9-Design

Alaska7133 said:


> Here's a few hunt test judging questions:
> 
> 1. Can a judge, judge a dog they bred but sold as a puppy?
> 2. Can a judge, judge a dog they own but is being run by someone else?
> 3. Can a judge, judge a dog they professionally trained in the past?
> 
> Just curious where the line is.


There is a rule of time regarding these things, it's either 6 months or a year, I can't remember. But the answer two questions 1 and 3 are the same : yes, if beyond the time limit (6 or 12 months, I can't remember). Answer to #2 is no.


----------



## gdgli

Alaska

I took a look at the photo of the peat bog that messed you up. That can be tough on a dog. It reminds me of the deep mud on the salt marsh. 

If that is where you are testing and/or hunting you probably should spend more time there both for your dog and your own head.

A comment about that mud---My last Golden went through about 30 yards of mud that went up to his belly with suction every time he pulled up a leg. This was to retrieve a duck that we shot. It was very tough and I believe that a dog can get hurt in this stuff.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Molly did a triple today but as singles first, sort of. I say sort of because she ran the go bird as a single, ran the middle bird as a single but I decided to shorten it up for the triple, and did not run the third mark due to technical difficulties with the winger. Aside from a bit of creeping, she was perfect. She knew she did well because everyone cheered for her (they knew it was one of her first triples). After I threw her a fun bumper she went to the gallery and squirmed around their legs and they loved her up and threw her a party. She was a VERY happy girl.

We also ran a blind that was placed in front of a holding blind. It was short, maybe 60 yards? But she went right to it. She is probably too inexperienced to think much about running towards a holding blind. It did affect some more experienced dogs.


----------



## hotel4dogs

At one of our SH tests the winger malfunctioned and the bird went straight up in the air, and came straight down, right smack in front of the holding blind. It couldn't have been more than 10 feet in front of the blind. I waited what seemed like forever for them to call a no-bird....and then heard, "DOG". Luckily we had never trained to avoid running at a holding blind, and he got the bird with no problem.
As the judges often say, the handlers tend to freak out about things that don't bother the dogs at all. Yep, true for me!





Vhuynh2 said:


> Molly did a triple today but as singles first, sort of. I say sort of because she ran the go bird as a single, ran the middle bird as a single but I decided to shorten it up for the triple, and did not run the third mark due to technical difficulties with the winger. Aside from a bit of creeping, she was perfect. She knew she did well because everyone cheered for her (they knew it was one of her first triples). After I threw her a fun bumper she went to the gallery and squirmed around their legs and they loved her up and threw her a party. She was a VERY happy girl.
> 
> We also ran a blind that was placed in front of a holding blind. It was short, maybe 60 yards? But she went right to it. She is probably too inexperienced to think much about running towards a holding blind. It did affect some more experienced dogs.


----------



## K9-Design

One of our club's FT open stakes had a similar blind....actually it was a double blind. The first blind was 50 yards away on bare ground --- and 10 feet in front of a man sitting in a chair wearing a white coat. The "real" blind was 400+ yards, just to the left of it. The blind in front of the gunner BLEW THEIR MINDS. Saw SOOOOO many dogs flare it and have to be handled all over the place because they refused to run at the gunner.


----------



## FTGoldens

K9-Design said:


> One of our club's FT open stakes had a similar blind....actually it was a double blind. The first blind was 50 yards away on bare ground --- and 10 feet in front of a man sitting in a chair wearing a white coat. The "real" blind was 400+ yards, just to the left of it. The blind in front of the gunner BLEW THEIR MINDS. Saw SOOOOO many dogs flare it and have to be handled all over the place because they refused to run at the gunner.


Yep, those in front of the blind planter blinds are ridiculously difficult for many, many field trial dogs ... those blinds make some really fine dogs look stupid. There are a couple of judges who are known for setting up blinds like that. Hence, I have some "special" training for those blinds. Basically, it's all about making the dog comfortable to run directly at someone sitting in a chair, at least whenever you tell them that it's okay for them to run directly at someone sitting in a chair.
FTGoldens


----------



## boomers_dawn

We went training with our 2 buddies tonight. We went to the same place the girls had so much trouble last time and did all singles again.
The girls did better than last time. I'm not sure why, other than obviously the marks were set up in a way easier for them to mark and retrieve.
Dee Dee needed help with one mark but it was way beyond a junior mark, so that was ok.
Gladys didn't nail her marks but figured it out. She cut her pad at the end so may sit out the next training session, has a gimp. But she is supposed to start wearing the collar again, just to re-condition to having it on.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Oooh oooh! one of our club NAHRA tests opened so I entered the girls - Dee Dee in started and Gladys in intermediate - so it should still be challenging and fun based on what they're working on, but not be overwhelming to what they've been training for. And I can get my work day in.
Had to review the rulebook... can't wait!


----------



## Alaska7133

Dawn,
You're so right, I love NAHRA! They do a great job of being inclusive and making it fun. We get good turnouts up here. Some people up here will only run NAHRA and not AKC at all. Have you looked at the new NAHRA proposed tests? NAHRA News. It's a land only upland series for running in the winter. Since we have a 9 month off season here, I'm hoping they institute up here.


----------



## Claudia M

With both girls in heat we are taking a break from field training. Decided to have some fun with Darcy's uncle Calder who is 15 weeks old today. Also a good way to see how is life with three mongrels instead of two.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Alaska7133 said:


> Dawn,
> You're so right, I love NAHRA! They do a great job of being inclusive and making it fun. We get good turnouts up here. Some people up here will only run NAHRA and not AKC at all. Have you looked at the new NAHRA proposed tests? NAHRA News. It's a land only upland series for running in the winter. Since we have a 9 month off season here, I'm hoping they institute up here.


No I had no clue! I'm clueless. Thanks for pointing this out.
Sounds great, choices are good.


----------



## hotel4dogs

We are on a slight break from field training, as Dan has been out of town for 2 weeks, so we decided to enter some agility trials. 
Cleaned up two new titles today....Time2Beat Preferred, and Excellent FAST preferred. On to Master FAST preferred!


----------



## hollyk

Congrats Barb and Tito!


----------



## tpd5

Alaska7133 said:


> Dawn,
> You're so right, I love NAHRA! They do a great job of being inclusive and making it fun. We get good turnouts up here. Some people up here will only run NAHRA and not AKC at all. Have you looked at the new NAHRA proposed tests? NAHRA News. It's a land only upland series for running in the winter. Since we have a 9 month off season here, I'm hoping they institute up here.


I was really looking forward to running NAHRA this summer, unfortunately we had to cancel our test due to lack of entries. Oh well, always next year I suppose. 

We ran one of my clubs WC test today. Overall it was a fun test. I wish I had entered WCX instead of WC but ended up going for the sure thing since we did not have a WC yet.


----------



## boomers_dawn

tpd5 said:


> I was really looking forward to running NAHRA this summer, unfortunately we had to cancel our test due to lack of entries. Oh well, always next year I suppose.
> 
> We ran one of my clubs WC test today. Overall it was a fun test. I wish I had entered WCX instead of WC but ended up going for the sure thing since we did not have a WC yet.


Congratulations on your WC!

NAHRA cancelled for lack of entries is a bummer :-(

If you're interested, Hudson Highlands is 9/13, it's on the website. Although since you're in MA, prob at least 2-3 hrs trip down 84 for you .. is that too much?


----------



## tpd5

It's 3 hours. I would do it for a double but a little far for a single test.


----------



## hotel4dogs

BTW, you can enter both a WC and a WCX in the same day. So if you want to let your dog really play, enter both! We've done that, and he was so happy to get more birds.

Got our first Master FAST preferred (agility) pass today. Need 10 for the title. It will be our last agility title, when we get it, which might take a while as we don't enter many trials.


----------



## tpd5

No crossover entries allowed at this last test. Had to pick one or the other.


----------



## hotel4dogs

well that sux! 



tpd5 said:


> No crossover entries allowed at this last test. Had to pick one or the other.


----------



## K9-Design

Hmmm I think that is a GRCA rule -- why a club would refuse and entry fee...?


----------



## tpd5

The reason I was given for the rule was because the same marks are sometimes used for both wc and wcx (just remove a station). It is a club decision, not GRCA


----------



## K9-Design

Oh gotcha. I know with our club they never do that as the scent from a removed station can wreak havoc with an inexperienced dog. Not every club has the luxury of ample, convenient space though. Congrats on your WC


----------



## tpd5

Thanks Anney. We certainly do not have ample space. I think we could make it work but not worth the hassle for the one or two extra entry fees we may get because we also are running puppy and veteran stakes at the same time. I believe my other club does allow it but Dawn would know better.


----------



## hotel4dogs

The only time we entered both was at National, and the two tests were in totally different fields. It makes sense that if they're in the same field it wouldn't be a good plan.


----------



## boomers_dawn

RE: WC/X, interesting, the rationale for no cross entries, and makes perfect sense.
I was on the committee last year and don't remember it coming up, but the test land and water tests were run in the same place with some tweaking of the marks. 
I looked it up for curiosity, didn't see no cross entries allowed in the premium.
The location is also somewhat limited and I saw on the premium that the field trial sign may not be put up, that probably means the general public will be traipsing around the place too. :-(

We trained today, a LOT. Dog skool teecher wanted Gladys to do the triple and probably the delayed quad they were doing, but I said no with her torn paw pad and questionable gimping I prefer she does singles in case she starts gimping, so I can put her up.

So she did singles, good work but have to wait 1/2 to min for quiet before sending :uhoh:

Dee Dee did great marking. She wouldn't pick up the live birds again :bawling: I had to go out and make her - I got lots of much needed exercise today.

Second series Gladys did an inline double (since no gimp with the singles I agreed to their fancy double), the others tried to get the dog to pick up the close one first using "easy" - Gladys passed it and did it out of order but managed to figure it all out.

We ended with dog skool teecher throwing the meanest duck for Dee Dee which she did pick up twice - so I thought that was a successful day.


----------



## Alaska7133

This weekend Lucy her mom Dotti, and her sister Ruby all passed a JH leg together. It was so nice to get a group photo.


----------



## Vhuynh2

No training but I worked my club's HRC hunt test this weekend. I ran Molly as Started test dog today. It wasn't exactly test environment for her as test dog but I wanted to test her steadiness anyway. I didn't hold her collar for the second land mark and she had happy feet. No creeping, but I had to tell her several times to sit, which never happens in training. I honestly don't think I will ever know if she will be steady at a test unless I run her. Or, maybe I can throw a live bird and see what happens. That's a thought. 

This isn't field related but it was the highlight of my weekend. There was a golden breeder judge (conformation) running his dog in Started and we got to talking about structure. I was just a sponge absorbing it all in. He thought Molly moved across the field just beautifully (she trotted back with the bird) and that it should be in a video! Lol! He said her head carriage and her gait was just beautiful and efficient. We went into other parts of structure and he even went over Molly and had me move her for him. I learned a ton. I could tell he loved answering my questions, like it lit a fire in him and it was just a very educational experience for me. I am not interested in showing, but I'm all about learning about the breed.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Alaska7133 said:


> This weekend Lucy her mom Dotti, and her sister Ruby all passed a JH leg together. It was so nice to get a group photo.



Congrats!!!!


----------



## K9-Design

Vhuynh2 said:


> This isn't field related but it was the highlight of my weekend. There was a golden breeder judge (conformation) running his dog in Started and we got to talking about structure. I was just a sponge absorbing it all in. He thought Molly moved across the field just beautifully (she trotted back with the bird) and that it should be in a video! Lol! He said her head carriage and her gait was just beautiful and efficient. We went into other parts of structure and he even went over Molly and had me move her for him. I learned a ton. I could tell he loved answering my questions, like it lit a fire in him and it was just a very educational experience for me. I am not interested in showing, but I'm all about learning about the breed.



VERY COOL and I bet the house that he's the judge who just gave Bally a major 
Glad you guys had fun at the test!


----------



## hotel4dogs

Great photo Stacey! Congrats on the passes!
Very nice compliment for Molly!


----------



## gdgli

Yesterday's Derby at WRC at Newburgh was the perfect Derby stake for newcomers to the FT world. There were 24 entries before scratches. The land series were very doable and all dogs were called back. The water series was a bit more difficult and some dogs were eliminated. I couldn't stay for the final series but it was going to be designed to be a tough one in order to eliminate dogs and get the placements.


----------



## gdgli

Congratulations Stacey!


----------



## boomers_dawn

Congratulations Stacey and Lucy, LOVE the photo!
and congratulations Bally's major 
.. and good to see someone else with happy feet .. I don't have the heart to step on them ... be interesting to follow someone else with same issue.


----------



## hollyk

Congratulations Stacey!
Sounds like a very fun day.


----------



## hollyk

Vhuynh2 said:


> No training but I worked my club's HRC hunt test this weekend. I ran Molly as Started test dog today. It wasn't exactly test environment for her as test dog but I wanted to test her steadiness anyway. I didn't hold her collar for the second land mark and she had happy feet. No creeping, but I had to tell her several times to sit, which never happens in training. I honestly don't think I will ever know if she will be steady at a test unless I run her. Or, maybe I can throw a live bird and see what happens. That's a thought.
> 
> This isn't field related but it was the highlight of my weekend. There was a golden breeder judge (conformation) running his dog in Started and we got to talking about structure. I was just a sponge absorbing it all in. He thought Molly moved across the field just beautifully (she trotted back with the bird) and that it should be in a video! Lol! He said her head carriage and her gait was just beautiful and efficient. We went into other parts of structure and he even went over Molly and had me move her for him. I learned a ton. I could tell he loved answering my questions, like it lit a fire in him and it was just a very educational experience for me. I am not interested in showing, but I'm all about learning about the breed.


Isn't he a nice guy Viv.
I stewarded for him in a CCA and learned so much. He was also one of the evaluators at Winter's CCA, again learned a ton. 
What wonderful compliments about Molly.


----------



## Alaska7133

Holly,
Did I see you are the judge for your club's WC next month? How fun is that! Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Vhuynh2

hollyk said:


> Isn't he a nice guy Viv.
> I stewarded for him in a CCA and learned so much. He was also one of the evaluators at Winter's CCA, again learned a ton.
> What wonderful compliments about Molly.



He evaluated Molly at the CCA last year but it was nice to have a conversation about structure on a more casual level. He is very nice, and funny!

Molly did wonderfully today. Everyone clapped for her when she did a short water blind. They have watched us train since the very beginning and know how far we have come.


----------



## Alaska7133

Vivian,
I'm so happy you are moving ahead with your pup. She sounds like she's doing great.


----------



## hollyk

Alaska7133 said:


> Holly,
> Did I see you are the judge for your club's WC next month? How fun is that! Let us know how it goes.


Linda was asked to judge for my club's WC/ WCX. When she accepted, we asked who she would like to judge with and she suggested me. 
My co-chair, who is also an AKC judge, said do it. 
Linda is a 3 point judge and can carry me. I have run Master under her twice this year. She is very easy to run under and it feels like she is pulling for every dog. 
So, yep, that's me.


----------



## Alaska7133

Good for you! The clubs up here have begun to complain about increasing entries and a decreasing quantity of judges. So good for you for stepping up. Hope you have a good amount of entries and you have fun.


----------



## Alaska7133

I've noticed an increasing variety of breeds at hunt tests these days. We have the usual big 3, but now standard poodles, FCR's, spaniels, and Tollers. It's great to see different types of dogs run, they all have different styles. What breeds of dogs do you see in your area at your hunt tests?


----------



## K9-Design

Stacie we see a fair number of oddball breeds here, definitely a lot of flatcoats, chessies, curlies, and boykin spaniels. Lots of boykins.

Tonight we wanted to do a setup but Kristin forgot the winger electronics so guess what, singles it is. The only wrinkle we put in the setup is we put the line right next to a very large downed tree, and put my rubber placemat up on the tree trunk, so the dogs had to get up and sit on the mat and watch the marks go down from there. We've never trained with a raised platform so this was as close as we could get it. We even ran our blind off it, sitting the dog on the tree facing the handler, with a remote back-cast to start the blind. Interesting results. I didn't know if I should tell Slater "Dead bird" or not, so I didn't, and when I gave him the back cast he turned and hopped off the tree, ran a few yards then popped, like, uh what are we doing here?? Just said back then he was OK and did the rest of the blind in I think two whistles.


----------



## hollyk

We see a lot of Irish Water Spaniels here.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

I think Anney is pretty close to me so we see a lot of the same dogs. Almost as many Boykins as labs. I do know that I love watching the standard poodles work. Rich Louter is close to us and comes to the same tests that I've been at, both HRC and AKC.


----------



## gdgli

Labs, Goldens, Chessies. Then a few Boykins, the odd Poodle and AWS, Curlies, and now an occasional Continental breed.


----------



## Claudia M

Labs, Goldens, Chessies, Flat-coats and Tollers. A friend has a musterlander, hope to see him work this hunting season.


----------



## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> Labs, Goldens, Chessies. Then a few Boykins, the odd Poodle and AWS, Curlies, and now an occasional Continental breed.


No Flat-coats?


----------



## Alaska7133

What's an AWS or Continental breed? I've only seen one dog that might have been a Boykin. No water dogs here. The springer and cockers show up for NAHRA, they let any dogs run, which is really nice. 

What's your local ratio of women to men at events? Here it's probably 60% female at junior, then drops to 40% on up from there. Field trials probably 25% female.

Our season is over until next May. Everyone is either out hunting or planning on going hunting soon. As a general contractor this is the hardest time of the year for me. My carpenters and subcontractors all disappear this time of year. I'm considering flying to the states in September to squeeze in some more hunt tests, I'd love to get in some more work. Winter is too long in Alaska.


----------



## hollyk

Alaska7133 said:


> What's an AWS or Continental breed? I've only seen one dog that might have been a Boykin. No water dogs here. The springer and cockers show up for NAHRA, they let any dogs run, which is really nice.
> 
> What's your local ratio of women to men at events? Here it's probably 60% female at junior, then drops to 40% on up from there. Field trials probably 25% female.
> 
> Our season is over until next May. Everyone is either out hunting or planning on going hunting soon. As a general contractor this is the hardest time of the year for me. My carpenters and subcontractors all disappear this time of year. I'm considering flying to the states in September to squeeze in some more hunt tests, I'd love to get in some more work. Winter is too long in Alaska.


Stacey, are you looking at the Sand and Sage double in Mesa, Wa.?
I ran Senior there two years ago.

Hunt tests: If you take out the Pro's I would say about 50/50 women to men ratio all levels. I think we have some strong women handlers here. All of the gals I train with expect to take their dogs to Master. Some have had basics put on their dogs by a Pro, most of us at least day train with a Pro. 
Off the top of my head I can think of 3 women I know who have qualified their dogs for the NMH this year and none of the dogs have been Pro trained. They may day train with a Pro but none of them have been "on the truck". 

Trained today the first time in a bit since I've been out of town. We did some technically difficult doubles and 3 land blinds which went well. Then I did a water blind that had two points in route. One coming from the right, one from the left and it was all on an angle. It turned ULGY, somewhere around the 2nd point. It was weird it wasn't that she got stuck on the point, it was that she could see the angle from that 2nd point to the end of the blind. She wanted to pull way right and I couldn't get her left unless she tried to suck back to the point. Even with pressure I could get her to drive back. She started to breakdown so I ended up sprinting around (not a pretty sight) to get closer to her and between that and pressure got her driving back. We repeated it and she did fine. 
We are in a test this week-end and I really would have preferred not to get in a big fight with her but once we started I need to see it though. UGH


----------



## Alaska7133

Holly,
I looked at Sand & Sage, but I have conflict that weekend. I've been looking at Sagehens outside San Francisco. Have you ever traveled that far south for a HT? Since you are getting pretty far along on MH, do you think about running Qualifying ever?


----------



## gdgli

Claudia M said:


> No Flat-coats?


You are right. We have 2-4 Flatties that show up.


----------



## gdgli

Alaska

AWS=American Water Spaniel

Continental Breed=dock tailed hunting dogs=Spinone, Wire Haired Pointing Griffon, etc.


----------



## hollyk

Alaska7133 said:


> Holly,
> I looked at Sand & Sage, but I have conflict that weekend. I've been looking at Sagehens outside San Francisco. Have you ever traveled that far south for a HT? Since you are getting pretty far along on MH, do you think about running Qualifying ever?



I'm not looking past MH right now, there are so many concepts that they can throw at you. We might be running but we are still work on getting better. Also for me, it is proving to be a huge step up as a handler. The tests seem to have to ability to change as you run it and I have much more responsibility on my shoulders. I'm pretty sure my handling took us out of two tests this year. In one test I over thought and gave her a bad line in two series on marks. In the first series it caused me to handle when I shouldn't of had to and in the 2nd series it made her backside a winger and give her a bigger hunt to the mark. Those mistakes left us going into the 3rd in a very weak position. 
I get the feeling that sometimes people here are looking past how hard MH is and jumping right to FT's. Only about 70 Goldens a year earn a MH, it ain't easy. 
Getting off my soapbox now. 

I hope to work on Obedience skills this fall. I have a deal with myself that Winter has to be trained through UD, showing in Open and running strong in MH before I can get another puppy. At the rate I'm going, Winter may end up only child.


----------



## FTGoldens

hollyk said:


> I get the feeling that sometimes people here are looking past how hard MH is and jumping right to FT's. Only about 70 Goldens a year earn a MH, it ain't easy.


That's an interesting perception. I'm curious as to what the thinking is with regard to moving from hunt tests to field trials.
(Don't take that the wrong way ... it'll be fantastic to see more Goldens in field trials, so I hope that you are right!!!)

FTGoldens


----------



## hollyk

Hmm, I don't think people here are actually not entering HT and jumping right to FT. 
My point is that MH is plenty hard enough for me right now.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Here's a boy to keep an eye on. She has expressed an interest in field trials.

Pedigree: CH OTCH Morgen's Lil' Bit Of Skyefire TD UDX2 OM3 MH NA NAJ WC VCX OBHF DDHF CCA




FTGoldens said:


> That's an interesting perception. I'm curious as to what the thinking is with regard to moving from hunt tests to field trials.
> (Don't take that the wrong way ... it'll be fantastic to see more Goldens in field trials, so I hope that you are right!!!)
> 
> FTGoldens


----------



## Alaska7133

Barb,
he looks lovely! Will he be at US golden national?


----------



## hotel4dogs

No idea Stacey. He's one of the best of the best, ever. Young dog, too.


----------



## Claudia M

We are back in training, nice long singles and nice doubles on land as well as long singles on water. Came back home and let them rest on the front porch while I was working on the flower bed and new walkway. Neighbor walked his dog past the house, I did not even know he walked by until he came back a half an hour later. More power to the phrase: "a tired puppy is a good puppy".


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

yay! Not field stuff but me and my daughter got the last legs on Katniss and Peaches' CD title today!!! So proud of us, and exciting we both titled together on the same day!!


----------



## Vhuynh2

Congratulations to you and all your girls (furry and human)!!!


----------



## hotel4dogs

Congratulations on the new titles!! Great job!


----------



## boomers_dawn

I think I forgot to post here in awhile. Since my 2 are entered in NAHRA intermediate and started, we need to work on: a) Gladys - doubles, land/water blinds, trailing test, and upland - I don't think we need to train the upland, she should know what to do and b) Dee Dee - singles

Last time we trained we all did walking singles and set up a trail for Gladys which she aced, I didn't even know she had it already b/c I thought it was someplace else - and I watched the trail being layed - duuuuhhhh. Gladys is handicapped - me.

We did a short blind too, I got some refusals but we managed to the bird. It wasn't up to dog skool teecher's standards but it was ok with mine  ha ha LOL

So since then we're working on the back pile and stopping. We'll add the over piles. I think it will all come back to us.

We're supposed to go training today. The others will do their master set ups, I'll adjust for us.

I entered us in our fall fun trial. Unfortunately for Gladys the stakes jump from Advanced singles to Qual. So she has to run Qual. I don't see how someone that works full time and takes care of a house and almost 2 acres is supposed to prepare for this by October so .. it is what it is. Sometimes she is full of suprises and does amazing things, and sometimes she can't do singles. So we'll see what set up and which Gladys we have that day.
Dee Dee will do singles. 

We're supposed to work on Dee Dee's handling drills but she is so fractious about running out the door I've been crating her and too mad to work on handling. I considered adjusting my attitude that she may be anxious to be with us and work instead of that she's being "bad".


----------



## Alaska7133

We ran our double header AKC junior a week ago. Both days the land had strong wind blowing from behind the dogs, so they all over ran the birds. With the wind behind us I waited a count of 4 every time I sent Lucy, to make sure she had a good picture. It worked out well for us, but a lot of dogs got dropped, like almost 50% both days on land. Funny how dogs rely too much on scent and not enough on their eyes. Lucy is an excellent marker and we practice doubles and triples a lot, so running singles is easy for her. Off to water. The railroad is running an extension through the area we were running the dogs. They have created a dike that has backed up water on all the ponds and small lakes by 3 or 4 feet higher than normal. Everything was flooded. Very strange running instead from near a bank to within the trees and brush that is normally far from the edge of the water. The dogs had to swim through the brush that is poking up from the ground below before they reach the water's "edge". The first day was too easy, but I'll take it. The birds were very short in distance, but the area was too difficult for the gunners to get any farther away. The second day on water was way too hard. The dogs that passed had either trained the week prior on that pond, or were handled. I did handle to the first bird, but Lucy lost me after the 3rd handle. She just hadn't done much handling in the past and I don't think completely trusted me. She was quite close to the bird, but it was in some brush that was under water and above the water. It was messy. So anyway, we didn't pass the second day. She was a good girl, she tried very hard. We know we need to work more on water and we need to work more on handling. So we are 3 for 4 on junior, how annoying. Which means we end the year without a title. Our season for hunt tests doesn't start again until next June. 

So... I've decided to fly to California for a JH double header in September. It will be interesting to run tests down in the states. I've heard you all have something called summer? I've also heard you have nasty critters like fleas, ticks, heartworm, and snakes down there? I've been reading up on the additional shots she'll need to get and flea stuff you put on their skin. Flying with a dog in baggage will be different. I've only flown with a puppy under my seat, so it will be new for both of us.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Congrats Stacey and Lucy!

We trained again last night:

Dee Dee did all singles. Some she nailed, and the long ones she stopped short and hunted the horizon. I did a LOT of walking.
DST said she needs to do a lot of that walking singles drill where the thrower moves farther and farther out. (there's a name for it which I forgot). 

Gladys .. nailed a double and long single then lined the blind.
On the second series, she did a delayed triple. When I sent her for the first time I put my hand down and she took off! Then on the long delayed mark, DST yelled "DOG!" and she took off! SHE BROKE! :bawling: 

She got the "HERE!" the collar correction and I got a looong walk out to come back with the bumper. DST said make a big deal of me getting it so I put the bumper in my mouth and tried to act excited even though I was like :bawling: 

Then on the second blind, she just ran to an old area and blew me off completely, didn't care about the collar. I called her in and that was a wrap.

Everyone in our house needs to be re-collar conditioned and I need to watch the video b/c I don't remember any of it.

The other dogs - both screwed up the first series, then one of them nailed the second series, and the other screwed up the long bird. They were all so inconsistent. 
DST said it's because they're young and inexperienced. 
I can only hope we all get better over time.


----------



## Alaska7133

I have a friend who's favorite saying is: A breaking dog is the only one worth having! A dog that doesn't break is never going to have the drive you are looking for.

So Dawn, be happy! You have a breaking dog! She wants to go! See you can put a positive spin on it.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Does anyone know why a dog might consistently run back after completing a blind but trot back from retrieving a mark?


----------



## Claudia M

Congrats Shelby and the girls!!!!!


----------



## Claudia M

Vhuynh2 said:


> Does anyone know why a dog might consistently run back after completing a blind but trot back from retrieving a mark?


I have noticed with Rose that she does that if she knows that she is on the last job, on long marks as if she is saving her energy for the next job or when she does too many geometric equations in her mind going to get the bird. It is like she is recalculating everything in her mind to make sure she was correct the first time.


----------



## K9-Design

Vhuynh2 said:


> Does anyone know why a dog might consistently run back after completing a blind but trot back from retrieving a mark?



A little possessive with the bird.
A little lack of work ethic.
A little here-nick-here fixes it


----------



## Vhuynh2

We did a WCX setup today. Molly's triples are really coming along and the 100 yard middle mark is no longer a problem for her.

On the water double, Molly swam past the memory bird (white bumper in open water). It was literally only one foot away from her and she swam right past it and just kept going. I said what the heck?? THEN I realized she was chasing a duck! We were all calling her and she didn't even look back. When the duck finally flew off she turned back, got the bumper, but was still looking around for that duck on her way back. A training partner who is not really keen on using live birds said, "that's what you get for using live birds!"


----------



## Vhuynh2

Omg.. WCX water honor was the least of my worries. She broke tonight as honor dog, TWICE!!


----------



## boomers_dawn

Oh no another breaker :-(

We haven't done marks since the last debacle but I took my two to the pattern blind field yesterday and did 2 of the 3 pattern blinds with Gladys with the collar back on. I moved one of the pattern blinds a bit because the old rock was gone and a new rock was out, so I thought she would go to the new rock, but instead, she went to the old (nonexistent) rock - eeenteresting, it wasn't the rock, it was the spot! Like some weird internal GPS.
She did ok. She got a good lesson in Dawn knows where the bumper is.

I started teaching Dee Dee one of the pattern blinds, she did great, was very enthusiastic and seemed to enjoy it!

Some of my training group members initiated some discussion of why Dee Dee is having trouble marking. Is it her eyesight? Is it her ability? I have thought about it quite a bit. I don't think it's either of those, because she has run a JH test with a 136 yard mark (one of the other handlers measured and everyone was complaining) and nailed every mark. So I know she can do the work.

For one thing, she isn't steady, and any movement at the line is going to impact marking. 

She has a little ADD, for example if told to SIT, does it then thinks she's all done and gets up. So I think she's just a little late bloomer and there's no emergency, and we can keep training and try to have fun and enjoy life.

Sooo... we're supposed to train after work, I'll ask someone to throw the walking singles drill for her. The others did breaking drills this week on the day I couldn't train with them. Maybe we can do it again, one of their dogs broke at the last test so I'm sure the topic is relevant to all.

We have group again Monday, and will continue our drills over the weekend.


----------



## FTGoldens

All,

There's a bit of talk about breakers, so:

What do you do when your dog breaks? 
[There's no one, perfect answer, so let's hear everyone's different methods of correction. And if you have tried different methods, let us hear about them all.]

FTGoldens


----------



## Vhuynh2

When Molly breaks on a mark I say "no!" and whistle her back and that always works. Last night she just wouldn't come back and unfortunately completed both retrieves. The throws were just too tempting I guess, they were short and the jumbo bumper caused bigger splashes. But, I didn't want to get on her with the collar during a retrieve, even if she wasn't supposed to get it. On the third try, I reinforced her "sit" with a light nick and it did the trick. 

Then, when we did the land triple she was already standing before the third bird went down. Not sure what was going on with her yesterday...


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

I do the same and whistle and say NO! But if that doesn't work I have the bird boy run out and pick up the mark before she can. There is absolutely no reward for breaking for Katniss.


----------



## Vhuynh2

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I do the same and whistle and say NO! But if that doesn't work I have the bird boy run out and pick up the mark before she can. There is absolutely no reward for breaking for Katniss.



I think if the marks were on land I probably could've stopped her.  No luck this time. It was very tempting running water.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

ha ha ha, yes, you have a point. I've watched many times my trainer almost fall in the water trying to get that bird before the dog, ha ha ha!!! Makes me laugh just thinking about it!


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

But how did you let her get both retrieves? In a case like that I would have put Kat up the minute she came into shore and said, No no no and been all grumpy to her. She would know if she couldn't finish her double that she was being punished.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Oh no, Molly broke on the honor, not the double. So in both cases, she got the bird that was meant for the working dog. She was steady for her own birds.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Ive seen a lot of people use a heeling stick behind the dog so that if the dog starts to barely lift its bottom on an honor they swat it. In fact one guy was just doing this at my training group


----------



## Alaska7133

"NO", "HERE", then hopefully she comes back. That's at a test. We had issues at several tests and one derby this summer where she broke. She is super hyper when she goes to the line.

So then after my breaking issues: When I get her out of the crate, I make sure to practice several heads up heeling exercises. When we walk to the blind, I say "watch" and pop the leash if she doesn't look at me, then I praise with "yes" when she looks. Then I make sure when we are in the holding blind to practice "watch" and do a few left hand turning circles where she has to watch me. It seems like if I practice "attention" in the holding blind before we go to the line, we have a better chance. Then we walk to the line, I don't say watch, but I do have her sit a few times and look out at the gunners, etc. I want her looking to me as a partner from the time she comes out of the crate, to the time she comes back with a bird. So far she has improved. Time will tell. I took 12 weeks of attention classes last winter. This summer I'm repeating the same series of classes. The winter instructor is a HT/FT person, the summer instructor is a pointing test judge. So both instructors know the game with fieldwork and I think its really helped. I do have a pdf of the "book" for the class if anyone is interested, I can email it.


----------



## FTGoldens

Vhuynh2 said:


> When Molly breaks on a mark I say "no!" and whistle her back and that always works. Last night she just wouldn't come back and unfortunately completed both retrieves. The throws were just too tempting I guess, they were short and the jumbo bumper caused bigger splashes. But, I didn't want to get on her with the collar during a retrieve, even if she wasn't supposed to get it. On the third try, I reinforced her "sit" with a light nick and it did the trick.
> 
> Then, when we did the land triple she was already standing before the third bird went down. Not sure what was going on with her yesterday...


Molly sounds like a fun girl! But it also sounds like she's a chronic breaker. 
Like you, I prefer to not use electricity for a break ... there's just too many ways that a pup can interpret the stimulation.
It sounds like breaking is becoming a habit that needs to be broken pretty quickly. Do you run her with a check cord or maybe just a training tab? 

FTGoldens

(I will not, not ever, profess to have the solution to fix a breaking dog! I have a pretty accomplished gal that was/is a chronic breaker. Breaking cost her several derby points and an all-age win or two; heck, she broke in training earlier this year on a 200 yard water mark ... and she's well over eight years old!)


----------



## Vhuynh2

I can't get on Molly too hard or show frustration/annoyance with her. She shows strong tendencies towards avoidance/bolting in response to my being upset with her. And in yesterday's case, I did not think the amount of pressure I would've had to use on the collar to call her back would've been worth it. I do think letting her get those birds would have been less detrimental overall than giving her a very harsh correction during a retrieve. I could've showed that I was very upset with her on the way back but I also think that would have done more harm than good. Again, this is just based on Molly's past behaviors. I especially did not want the correction to be any way associated with actual retrieving but the sit itself.

Thanks FT, I'm going to use a tab from now on. Honestly though, Molly is not a chronic breaker, and this really usually never happens in training! We have only honored a few times but this was the only time she even showed a desire to break. I do think with our usual training group she is not as excited to retrieve. I am not sure why. With a different group and especially in new locations, she shows much more desire. Last night was new-ish people, same location.


----------



## FTGoldens

BTW, the puppy training method described in Bill Hillman's puppy DVD is a marvelous way to start a pup out so it simply never considers breaking. He describes it as being like a traffic cop. I have used it on my last two youngsters and highly recommend it. 
The biggest problem with the DVD is that it is painfully slow and methodical ... and that guitar music .... But, if you can get through most of the DVD, you will know enough to start out the pup. I have never applied the technique to an older dog, but there may be a way to make it work.
FTGoldens


----------



## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> I took 12 weeks of "attention classes" last winter.


What are those?

Would they work on children?

FTGoldens


----------



## Vhuynh2

A few weeks ago, I came home from training and told my BF about how out of control my training partner's dog was that night. He broke on his memory bird and broke twice on the honor. I thought it was really funny. This must be karma.


----------



## Alaska7133

No, "attention" doesn't work on kids or husbands, wish it did! I'm happy to share my "books". They are word documents about 20 pages long each. Just PM me your email address. Janice DeMello wrote the books. Unfortunately they are no longer in print, mine are just copies.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Vhuynh2 said:


> A few weeks ago, I came home from training and told my BF about how out of control my training partner's dog was that night. He broke on his memory bird and broke twice on the honor. I thought it was really funny. This must be karma.


I'm giggling because this is how it went with Katniss on her sit/stays for her CD. She never did them wrong ever and at at a training class this one dog always broke. I told my husband too, just like you did! I never worried about them at all because Kat NEVER had a problem with them, I was worried about other things. Then on her first trial, she freaking laid down on her sit! I knew it was karma! Just remember when/if you ever have a kid (human) don't ever criticize anyone else's because yours will be twice as bad! That is mommy advice, learned the hard way!


----------



## Vhuynh2

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I'm giggling because this is how it went with Katniss on her sit/stays for her CD. She never did them wrong ever and at at a training class this one dog always broke. I told my husband too, just like you did! I never worried about them at all because Kat NEVER had a problem with them, I was worried about other things. Then on her first trial, she freaking laid down on her sit! I knew it was karma! Just remember when/if you ever have a kid (human) don't ever criticize anyone else's because yours will be twice as bad! That is mommy advice, learned the hard way!



OMG, this is exactly why I told my BF I can't ever have kids. I've criticized too many of them. (Not that I could ever do any better with my own kids.) It's already too late for me!! Lol!


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

ha ha!! You made me laugh!


----------



## hotel4dogs

I have a slightly different answer.
I prefer not to say "NO" when he's heading out into the field. I think it causes more problems than it solves with some dogs, Tito being one of them. He would take that to heart, and on the next time out would probably stop and ask me "is this okay boss?". 
So instead I say "HEEL" loud and firm. Then if he doesn't I am well within my rights to tap him with the e-collar, because now he is in violation of the HEEL command.


----------



## Alaska7133

Question for the day.

You are at a double header hunt test (2 tests in 2 days). You pass the first day and get the title. So on the next day do you:
1. Run at the same level you did on Saturday?
2. Run at the next level up (assuming there is a higher level)?
3. Go home and not run at all on Sunday?

At a couple of tests I've seen people pass on Saturday and get a title, then not run their dog at all the next day. I thought that was silly to miss out on an excellent opportunity to run your dog, especially since you paid for it. So what would you do?


----------



## Vhuynh2

I would go home just because I don't need the stress of running another test when I don't need to.


----------



## hollyk

Since Winter didn't stay in the water all the way to the blind in our last test we ran a shoreline blind today. It was a little tough keeping her off the shore after the second point, she wanted to beach early. I have been thinking about it and I don't know if I have actually run a shoreline blind this long before. My training partner has a range finder and at measured out as 115 feet. I know we have run other types of water blinds longer than but maybe not a shoreline. So Winter will be seeing this blind again and it will become a memory blind for her. I will make sure to find a few more for her to run. Once she is nailing this blind as a memory, I will add a mark along the edge somewhere, no her off of it and then run the blind.


----------



## Alaska7133

Holly,
On that blind, would you expect your dog to run in the shallow water, cross the point of land, run in the shallow water, cross the next point of land, then run in the water to the bird? Would you send your dog from your right side? When you run it, does Winter tend to want to swing to the right and swim or go to the left and run on the grass?


----------



## hollyk

This is all swimming water. My line to the blind is just off the points in the water. I would like Winter to stay in water unless she is casted toward a point. I have done my best to teach her to go by a point and not get on it unless told to. As she was approaching the 2nd point she was caving in toward it. I whistled and casted her away which she took past the point. After the point she kept scalping into shore and we had a bit of a battle. I finally got her off the shoreline and back _fat_ in the water and she carried the line to about even with the blind and then I gave her an over to pick it up. We ran this 3 times in all, the 3rd was better but I still wasn't happy with it. So we will run it again and it will become a memory blind. Distance was definitely eroding my control and kicking my butt today. 
Winter always runs from my left, she is not two sided.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Breaking. Great discussion topic.
Everything I know I learned from dog skool teecher: 

Nick + Command (I use Butt up = SIT!, Creep = HEEL!, Break = HERE!)

Gladys has never broke all the way to the bird, she comes back, but this is my worst nightmare of what could be a habit.
Gladys is especially difficult to read because she does a charming little tap dance when the birds go down that fuzzes the line between movement and creeping. Many others have suggested putting a stop to it and they wouldn't accept it, but to me it's part of her style and I don't have the heart to squash it.

Dee Dee I haven't even come close to working on steady with, we need her to go and do something. I imagine when we get there, will be the same approach.

I've seen people use the heeling stick but never to hit the dog in the behind. If someone whipped me in the butt with the heeling stick I would move forward. I've seen it used as a barrier, like that bar that goes across the train tracks when the train is coming, or "tap" across the chest, which pushes it back.

We do breaking drills as needed in training. Line two or more dogs up and take turns honoring and correcting if they break. We also do breaking drills with excitiing marks and correcting if they break.


As for our training tonight, I didn't have to worry about breaking.

For Gladys, they talked me into rehearsing the memory bird and doing their master triple. I had to wait so long for Gladys to quiet down before sending, she didn't remember anything and it was a disaster. DST and I agreed we need to work on short singles, any whining and she goes off line. So we did that at the end, and of course she didn't whine. Next time we will try singles and if no whining, double, and work up.

My sense is the whining is about multiple marks and being made to sit and heel.

Dee Dee - what an interesting character. We did the marking drill. Anything thrown in the direction of the hill she ran up the hill and practically to the next town. One single DST had to re-throw for her. She ran past the 2nd bumper on the way back, then on the next throw, in the opposite direction, she ran EXACTLY to the EXACT spot where she had passed the 2nd bumper she had left behind previously. 

Our other training buddy was like "she has a great memory!" to which my reply, "yeah for everthing except the mark just thrown". It is extremely interesting how these dogs think.

The master dogs were inconsistent and squirrely in their own ways. We made a second series by recycling the winger stations and moving the line. Then they did singles with blinds in relation to the marks. (Gladys didn't do this b/c whining drill instead). So the single goes off, and training buddy's dog takes off for the long mark from the previous set up! He was like "where is she going?" but I think she's so used to doing triples, she just assumed she was supposed to go out and get the mark from the previous series! 

Squirrels! So .. the plan now is - no more set ups, work on drills and Gladys do whining marks and Dee Dee do the walking single marks. Hopefully we can manage to bumble through our NAHRA test without anything bad happening and have fun, and at our fun trial, I think for Gladys if excessive whining, just pick her up, b/c waiting for quiet then having her remember nothing is just too painful.


----------



## K9-Design

Holly I gotta say if the line to the blind is swimming water (not running) I hardly call that a shoreline blind.
We train in mainly cow ponds which are just depressions in the land that fill up with rain water and eventually turn into permanent although constantly fluctuating depth ponds. Thus, shorlines are long, flat, gradual depth and void of cover. IOW you can get a true shoreline where the dog must stay in running water and not beach. I practice these as much as I can and our dogs get really good at them. We have one pond that is 130 YARDS long on one side, and we can run our dogs all the way down them 2 yards off shore in elbow-deep water. I built a little drill putting the dog on the shore with a backpile 3-5 feet off the end, with a straight up back cast I expect the dog to get in the water a few feet and run down to the back pile in running water. Too deep if you over cast and the dog swims and big correction de-cheating if he scallops onto land. This reminds me ------ need to do more of these!!!!

For breaking it's NO-HERE and burn-burn-burn all the way back. I never use the collar until the dog is headed back to me (do not stop forward progress with the collar).
If I had a dog who then refused to go or popped they would get more pressure to go, that to me shows a lack of understanding of what they are getting corrected for.


----------



## boomers_dawn

RE: Breaking: every dog is different and I belive in tailoring for this, so don't think there's one answer, "right" or "wrong" .. but I don't get something.

When our dogs get nicked for getting up or moving, it's immediate correction for breaking the sit (or in my case stay, because I tell them sit and stay before signalling). Maybe we use the collar differently. We use it mostly for sit. I think DST said use it when the dog is stationary. (except in this case, when they are supposed to be stationary, but broke the stationary). So I think they should understand that. They both know sit and stay, (although the midget has ADD and forgets after a few seconds).

So I'm curious what would be the value in waiting for the collar correction after that moment has passed when they broke the command .. for example if they're on the way back and they get the nick/burn ... would they not see that as getting burned for coming back on the "HERE" and be confused?

Is the concern if they get it on the way OUT, they will confuse it with force on back and go OUT more faster?
(I **think** that's what Anney means by the last sentence of post #204).. is that right?

Again, not asking to say it's wrong, I'm asking to get what is the thought process on this approach .... thanky 

ETA: I just remembered, we have also used it for force on back, which is not only stationary. My memory is really bad, need some memory drills for myself!
Although I still think she knows the correction is for breaking the stay; if she wasn't sent, she did wrong, and comes back to sit/heel/here. She knows I don't mean go get the bird faster.


----------



## K9-Design

Hi Dawn, everyone has a different style or what they think is right on using the collar so as long as you are consistent and getting results you want, it is neither right nor wrong.

As a general rule I do not use the collar when the dog is stationary, on anything. I have seen that gradually build up phobic avoidance behaviors whether it's in heel position or on a whistle sit.

IMO a dog that breaks then will not stop on your voice command is a very disrespectful dog, I don't care how much drive they have. This is a team sport, and I'm the coach, not the dog!!! I would use the collar to stop them if they broke and refused to immediately respond to my voice command. I find once they are collar conditioned properly to "here" they respond almost immediately. Nicking on the return is like indirect pressure -- they are getting a lot of heat for the recall, and that makes them pause for thought on a different and opposite command. Every dog will accept pressure on a recall and still be willing to come back to you -- because complying with the command alleviates the pressure.

Nicking when they return is how you get a correction in for breaking where it looks nothing like leaving for a mark/blind AND feels nothing like force en route. How can you ask a dog to know he is getting corrected from breaking (STOP) by feeling collar while running away from you, and understand a correction for force en route (GO) while running away from you? It is the same reason I GREATLY prefer the Mitch White/Miner method of decheating where a dog is NEVER nicked on the send, only on the return. Later when he can handle, you stop with the whistle if he cheats, and correct him as you re-call him. Never going out. I learned first hand what the old Dobbs method of nick on the apex does --- it gets you a dog who refuses to leave because they don't understand why they were nicked on the way to a mark. So as a rule, if my dogs get pressure while running away from me, it means *GO FASTER*!


----------



## boomers_dawn

Thanks for the thoughful explaination Anney.
What we're doing works for us now so I won't change but it is interesting to consider different ways and options.
Something different may be needed for Dee Dee someday, I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

We went to the pattern field today, didn't do too many b/c hot/humid.
I put the rock one back where the rock used to be, since that's where Gladys went last time, but today she went to the new rock instead .. of course. So I sat her and cast her to the old spot. She didn't want to come in and sit right so I nicked her then she did every single thing perfect after that! Funny how that works.

Dee Dee I worked on re-cc and continued to teach her one of the pattern blinds. She did great and seemed happy. After that, just to see what would happen, I threw a couple bumpers to see if she would be steady. She was on 2 of 3 and responded to a verbal correction on the middle one. I didn't want to collar correct her at this time as I wasn't 100% certain she knows to be steady and therefore didn't think it would be fair to use the collar if not.

It was fun and felt constructive... like we made some progress.


----------



## hotel4dogs

ok, this is long and tedious, but here's our entire weekend. This is the email I sent to Dan, sorry for just re-posting it but it made more sense than starting over:

Hello all!

As you know by now, Tito got his 6th AKC Master Upland pass on Saturday, becoming the first Golden to earn the AKC MHU (Master Hunter Upland) title. What a boy!

His run wasn't very good on Saturday, IMO (luckily I wasn't judging). He was really amped up, and didn't quarter very well. It was much more random than I would care to see. But he did produce the birds nicely, flushed hard, rock steady, nice marking and retrieves. Only I knew he can do much better.
The hunt dead was a bit weird, we were about 5 yards before a gravel road (12 foot wide maybe road), then there was a patch of light cover, then another gravel road (this by the old runway at Bong), then about 10 yards of fairly heavy cover, then the bird sort of near a tree, in a heavy patch. 
Tito did *okay*, he was thrown off by having to cross the second road and I had to handle him, I was surprised that he considered the second road a barrier. Of course by the time I realized he was running the road he was also off to one side, but he took all the casts nicely and came up with the bird.
The water blind was U-G-L-Y. The Spaniel people were very impressed. SHEESH. It was just a short blind with a slight angle entry, maybe 40 yards across the gravel pond, mud on both shores. There was a dead tree sticking up straight across from where we were, it was almost pure white, so you can guess what happened...yep, headed straight for the tree. Was determined to head to it, despite several casts "OVER!!!!!!" to get him to get out where I wanted him to. Finally gave up and let him beach himself, then gave an over cast on land (I can hear Dan shaking his head from here). THEN, in typical Tito fashion, he remembered that the last 4 water blinds have all been behind and under bushes, so of course he was determined to hunt all over around the stupid bush that was about 5 yards from the blind. Finally determined that the bird wasn't there, and that just *maybe* Barb knows where it is, took a cast right to the bird and came back with it.
Water mark was easy and uneventful.
So he got his 6th pass, and the awards dinner was one of the highlights of our career. Got a nice English slip lead (orange) for the new title. 
Today there was nothing at stake, just a fun run since he had titled, and of course with no pressure at all I was able to relax and naturally he had his best run EVER. I couldn't have asked for anything better (except for him taking a poop in the field, but I can forgive that). 
First bird was off to our right about 20 yards out, but only about 20 FEET off the start line. Lots of dogs over ran that bird and never did come up with it. Nope, Tito's nose was in full swing today, perfect find and flush, marked perfectly, great job. Second bird was all the way at the far end of the field, he quartered almost perfectly all the way down the field, again awesome find and hard flush, rock steady. The gunners *almost* missed the bird, it was just clipped and went down a good 125 yards away next to the trees. The judge hesitated for a moment, then tapped my shoulder to send the dog. He told me he just wanted to see a retriever do a retriever mark and retrieve, he gets tired of these short little marks (generally anything over about 80 yards they will call a no-bird). Tito had been totally locked on it, marked it perfectly, and came back with a live bird that wasn't real happy about it. We should get some nice photos, the professional photographer was clicking away like crazy because Tito came back totally blind. The bird's wing was completely over his face, and since the bird was alive Tito wasn't about to put it down to re-grip. He had to listen for my whistle/voice to come back, because I realized he couldn't see at all. When he got near us he went back to heel next to a judge, then the marshall, before finally locating me. Everyone was laughing, but mightily impressed. 
When I got back to the "tent", there were a bunch of club members sitting there. One told me that the previous night several of the club people had been talking, and they were all in agreement that the Golden had been the best dog in the field on Saturday (the day I thought he didn't do so good!). Then today he truly was by far the best dog out there.
The hunt dead I had to handle him, but he took the casts beautifully and one of the judges asked me in jest to come give a handling seminar (Dan is laughing by now) at their club. 
The water blind was, of all things, in the exact same place as the day before (despite having 2 different judges), so it was pretty much a memory blind. And yes, he headed for the tree again, and yes, I had to handle him, but this time he remembered where it had been yesterday and it wasn't ugly. The judge asked me to teach her how to teach her dog to do that. She liked the "treading water". Since we are trying to get back into retriever mode, I made him tread for a L-O-N-G time before giving him a cast.
Water mark was uneventful.
One of today's judges was saying that Tito is one of the finest dogs he's had the pleasure to judge. I commented, "isn't it nice to see a show dog that can hunt?"
He said, "NO! It's fantastic to see a HUNTING DOG that can go in the show ring!"

So he got another pass today, nice job. Only 4 of the 13 Master dogs passed today. He was high scoring dog. I know this because apparently there is a "Master Hunter Advanced" title in which scores matter. 
So back to retriever work, we have some serious remedial work to do on blinds now. 

Also, on Saturday they told you at the awards dinner whether or not you passed, but after our water work (I knew he had passed) I asked the judges if it would be premature for me to call the bakery and order a cake, and they told me to go ahead, I had nothing to worry about.


----------



## Alaska7133

That's so fantastic! Congratulations! Good for you for trying something new and different and doing it well!


----------



## Alaska7133

Now our hunt test season is over it's been especially difficult to get anyone out to train. Of course we had our first frost this morning, so everyone is on duck hunting mode, water work will end in just a few short weeks. Yesterday we floated the upper Kenai River. Our retriever training was: get in the boat, stay in the boat, unload. Lucy had such a hard time with all that yesterday. All the ducks in the river are getting ready to fly south, so it really amped up her little brain. I forgot the ecollar so it was a bit of a circus keeping her contained. We need to get her under control in the raft so she doesn't cause us problems while hunting. We didn't introduce the shotgun to the equation yet, but once we do with the raft, she's going to lose her mind again. The entry in and out of a raft is different than a boat. Ours is actually a cataraft, so it has two 16' long tubes with a framework and a flat bottom between the tubes. The entry is over the top of the wide tubes and across the frame before you are truly in the boat. Dog + raft + birds = fun. My other goldens are perfectly trained for the raft and we don't have to leash them or mind them at all. So I'll keep working on getting Lucy trained for the raft. I'll probably have to work a bit in the yard before we launch again. Hopefully soon she'll be as good and dependable as the boys, so that duck hunting will be smooth.


----------



## hollyk

K9-Design said:


> Holly I gotta say if the line to the blind is swimming water (not running) I hardly call that a shoreline blind.
> We train in mainly cow ponds which are just depressions in the land that fill up with rain water and eventually..........


Hmmm, we tend to call any water blind that the dog is asked to parallel two feet off the shore a shoreline blind, running or swimming water. Regardless of what it is called or whether she is lunging thought it or swimming she needs stay off the shore and if told to cast away from the shore and take more water, do it. I don't know if because the with the shallow curve of land after the second point she couldn't see the picture, if distance eroded my control or she just figured since she had gone by two points it was well pasted time to beach and was committed to it. Afterwards my training partner said "Wow, was that Winter? She never fights you like that." Except she did it in the last MH test too, just not to this extent, so I'm going after it. 
We won't have long running water here Anney until the fall rains start. Which I hope is still two months off, a long dry fall would be just fine with me. So while the ponds are still warm I'll be addressing my deep water along the shore blind issue.


----------

