# Age to spay?



## nenie18 (Feb 22, 2020)

Good morning all! I have a 5 month old Golden retriever female. Vet said around 5-6 months old would be time to spay her. What age did you have your dog spayed? I have a friend that has a female golden and she told me that waiting until after the pup has her first heat cycle is best because it protects them from cancer. Would like to hear opinions as I don't find much when I search online. Thank you!


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## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

Personally I wait for their growth plates to close, so at least 2 years for me. I consider 5-6 months very early. they are still babies at that age and need their hormones to grow. early spay & neuter affects their structure as well.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Wait until after her first cycle. There is much evidence it is protective against all but mammary cancer and that's not a common cancer. The hormones provide a feedback to the bones to stop growing, so even just for that reason it is important to let her have a cycle. Just don't let her be bred!


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## nenie18 (Feb 22, 2020)

Ffcmm said:


> Personally I wait for their growth plates to close, so at least 2 years for me. I consider 5-6 months very early. they are still babies at that age and need their hormones to grow. early spay & neuter affects their structure as well.


I was thinking the same.... I kind of wanted her to be more "adult" like before doing It. Since I have never had a female dog to go through heat, I will need support there! I am clueless as to what to expect! What age does it usually happen?


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I would wait until she's 2. That's what I did with my girl.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm not spaying Maggie. The hormones continue to protect against most cancers. So unless Maggie develops pyro (not super common either) no need to spay. Maybe at 5 or 6 but very unlikely before then.

As far as the earliest I'd ever do it... 2 years. After the growth plates are closed and certainly after the 12 month mark for the cancer issues


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I'm not spaying Maggie. The hormones continue to protect against most cancers. So unless Maggie develops pyro (not super common either) no need to spay. Maybe at 5 or 6 but very unlikely before then.
> 
> As far as the earliest if every so it... 2 years. After the growth plates are closed and certainly after the 12 month mark for the cancer issues


If I could do it all over again. I would have waited.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

How does it usually go? You might inquire as to mom's age at first cycle, they oftentimes follow that. Look for a drop of blood on the floor or her increased attention to licking her vulva... count whatever day you see a discolored discharge as day 1, and if she is allowed on the couch you may want to have some boy undies available or some dog panties and some mini pads. She'll bleed for 5-15 days, and will be breedable for the bulk of the last half of her 21-24 day heat cycle. She may get whiney or needy or she may up and decide to start some thing like barking for her food, etc.. she may be a clean girl or she may bleed like a stuck pig. They are all different.


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## nenie18 (Feb 22, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> How does it usually go? You might inquire as to mom's age at first cycle, they oftentimes follow that. Look for a drop of blood on the floor or her increased attention to licking her vulva... count whatever day you see a discolored discharge as day 1, and if she is allowed on the couch you may want to have some boy undies available or some dog panties and some mini pads. She'll bleed for 5-15 days, and will be breedable for the bulk of the last half of her 21-24 day heat cycle. She may get whiney or needy or she may up and decide to start some thing like barking for her food, etc.. she may be a clean girl or she may bleed like a stuck pig. They are all different.


Thank you! I was reading about what to expect... probably every dog different. I did buy some couch coverings as she has recently been allowed up there to cuddle/socialize with us. Thanks again for your feedback!


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## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

Welcome. Cute little girl you have there  My Maggie is our first female so I was really curious as to how heat cycles would go as well. She is going to be 18 months soon and has had at least 1 cycle. I never would have known except I saw a very small amount of discharge on her fur. She must be one of the very light cycle dogs. She will be getting spayed close to 2 years old. Not sure if I would keep her intact but a mute point since our contract stipulates she will be spayed. 

Jules


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## mjordan (Apr 1, 2020)

I understand this is a "touchy" subject - to say the least.
I have preferred to keep my pets intact and for me to be responsible for their actions.
A few years ago I was ready to make an 8 hour round trip drive to rescue a Dane puppy.
When the rescue group found out my Lab was intact, you would have thought I was going to use the Dane for fighting or to serve him up for lunch.
Militantly judgmental to say the VERY least.
I hope he found a good home and I told them to go straight to hell

That said, you might want to consider:
Dr. Becker: The Truth About Spaying and Neutering


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## nenie18 (Feb 22, 2020)

Will definitely do my research! Thank you for sharing your story..some people are going to judge you no matter what you do or don't do...Have to do what's right for you for sure.


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## nenie18 (Feb 22, 2020)

JulesAK said:


> Welcome. Cute little girl you have there  My Maggie is our first female so I was really curious as to how heat cycles would go as well. She is going to be 18 months soon and has had at least 1 cycle. I never would have known except I saw a very small amount of discharge on her fur. She must be one of the very light cycle dogs. She will be getting spayed close to 2 years old. Not sure if I would keep her intact but a mute point since our contract stipulates she will be spayed.
> 
> Jules


Thank you! Lucy is a special girl... she is definitely keeping us laughing with her little personality. Thanks for sharing info ...much appreciated as I have no idea what to expect.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Up front, this issue is almost the reason why I didn't get a golden. I couldn't get what I considered to be a definitive "do this" with backing data.

I am not providing any backing data for the following, as it is all over the Internet with both pro/con arguments. But, I did do quite a bit of Googling, to the point it seemed overwhelming with the seemingly contradictory opinions. And, I welcome being contradicted, but please point me to a source (which, hopefully, is not a person, however well qualified, simply providing opinions without providing sources for data driving those opinions).

With that it seems...

#1 - Spaying at 6 months, for goldens, is too early
#2a - Spaying before the first heat significantly reduces risk of mammary tumors
#2b - Spaying after the first heat still provides significant reduction in risk of mammary tumors
#3 - Delaying spaying may have benefits with-respect-to other types of cancers
#4 - Of mammary tumors, 75% are surgically corrected (50% are benign, 25% do not require chemo)
#5 - "Spay at 6 months" is a generality used to avoid the first cycle, and may not apply to goldens (as a large breed, the first heat may occur later)
#6 - Much of a golden's growth (height) is attained at 12 months, though they'll continue to fill out to 18 months

So, while I have not yet talked to our vet, my current plan is:
a - Wait until after 12 months, to allow for longitudinal bone growth
b - Hope to avoid the first heat cycle and get "max benefit" for mammary tumors, but not make this a priority
c - Spay after 12 months and, hopefully, before first heat cycle
d - Buy a good pet insurance


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Can't give you citations because I only restudy these things about once a year but I do have notes on some of the stats (will include where I have them from last litter notes) But to my memory- 0.5% odds of mammary cancer if spayed before first heat... ups to around 3-8% (depending on the study) if after first heat and before second. Mammary cancer is one of the least bothersome of the cancers, since about half of them are benign. I tell puppy people to feel each breast every month when they do their own breast self exam since just like in any other species, early detection is important. If a man is the owner, I tell him to do breast exam when he does heartworm prevention each month. The biggest plus to waiting for spay to me are decreased risk of osteosarcoma (a much more deadly cancer) Cooley DM et al (Cancer Epidimiol Biomarker Prev 11/2002) and Transitional Cell Carcinoma of the bladder Norris AM et al. (JVIM 1992). There are more of course, and other worrisome cancers- removal of the gonads prevents sex hormone feedback loops on the pituitary and hypothalamus leaving LH constantly high (and LH has other jobs besides prompting egg release from the ovaries) particularly LH receptors are often found in the neoplastic tissues of hemangiosarcomas and lymphomas. AND cruciate ligaments- which might explain the upped incidences of those ligament conditions later in life in altered animals. That is cutting edge really recent stuff- I just read one article a couple weeks ago on that but it was a speed reading journal article day and I do not recall what journal it was published in...gave me something to think about though. I might have overlapped two studies in my mind but I kinda think I also read that they're looking at GI tract issues and thyroid issues with the lack of gonads. 

What you aim for with the long bone development is allowing the hormones of puberty to provide the turn off of growth so that the dog stops growing- who has not seen an early altered animal with uber long bones, right? So structure is crucial when you consider the various dysplasias that come with unintended pressures on joints, and allowing puberty takes care of this. It's not so much longitudinal bone growth puberty allows, it is the stopping of that growth. Without puberty, that 12 month marker may not get you what you want from allowing a later spay- my own girls often do not have first cycle til well after a year old. 
In my own opinion insurance is best used for emergencies, not preventative care, so in my own opinion a low premium high deductible policy is the best buy. Young puppies often have emergencies, due to their exploration of things that can kill them. Those policies are usually not terribly costly and do not usually increase much year to year.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I would also state that the mammary tumor reduced risk by spaying before the first heat is not a proven from a study. They are not sure if this. It's more like a working theory. I looked into this extensively when I got my current dog in December '17 as my last golden passed July of '17 from this very issue. The issue is also not a prevalent one as a whole (mammary tumors). It was by far my least of my concerns in my decision of when/if to spay.

For me it was a bigger issue with regards to growing too long in the long bones causing higher risk of CCL tears, known increase risk of other cancers from early AND late spay. All led to me deciding to not spay as the best answer. Intact females continue to reap the benefits of the hormones that protect against the risk of cancers like MCT, lymphoma, hemangiosarcoma


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## jeffscott947 (Jun 9, 2019)

I am in a similar boat with a 1 yr old Golden. I will wait for _*at least *_six months more, and after her 1st heat. Watch out for Pyrometra with a late spay. The chances of Pyrometra increase in older intact dogs as they age unfortunately. The proverbial rock and hard spot for all of us.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

It's not as straight forward with females, unfortunately. Here is the UC Davis study into Golden Retrievers and spay neuter effects.- 








Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers


In contrast to European countries, the overwhelming majority of dogs in the U.S. are neutered (including spaying), usually done before one year of age. Given the importance of gonadal hormones in growth and development, this cultural contrast invites an analysis of the multiple organ systems...




journals.plos.org





Early spay increases risk of joint issues but late spay increases risk of some cancers.

Much more definitive for the boys. I hope someone is doing further study.

Along with joint disorders versus cancer risk, owners of females also have to make sure they can keep an intact girl in heat safe for the duration. If you live in a city, if you have a dogwalker, or your dog goes to daycare, those are all issues you have to consider, too.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Goes without saying that if you keep a female intact then you MUST be responsible for roughly 3 weeks at a time.


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

As Sweet Girls said, the UC Davis study makes it clear that it's better for *male *golden retrievers to be neutered late or not at all. Unfortunately, the data on females was much less clear. A concern with mammary cancer (not super common and pretty treatable) wouldn't even be on my radar given that the study found four times the rate of hemangiosarcoma and an increased rate of mast cell tumors (both common and deadly cancers in GRs) for females that were spayed late (defined as after 12 months of age) as compared to females that were spayed early (before 12 months old) or never spayed at all.

So, the UC Davis data suggests that unless you can commit to never spaying a female, you would be lowering her risk of hemangiosarcoma and mast cell tumors significantly by spaying before 12 months of age.

The study did find an increase in cranial cruciate ligament tears, basically the dog equivalent of an ACL tear, in females that were spayed early but that injury is so closely tied to body weight and condition that I would be much more concerned with keeping weight under control to prevent that injury.


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## Obedience rocks (Feb 17, 2020)

I neutered my boy at 7 months, but it is a decision I regret, a lot. He did not fill out nearly as much as he should, even though he is field bred, thus more leaner built. I would definitely recommend 1-2 years, for her overall health and development.


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## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

Maggie just started her heat cycle. This is her second one. She is not thrilled with her pants


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## Deepbluebay (Apr 9, 2020)

Obedience rocks said:


> I neutered my boy at 7 months, but it is a decision I regret, a lot. He did not fill out nearly as much as he should, even though he is field bred, thus more leaner built. I would definitely recommend 1-2 years, for her overall health and development.





Obedience rocks said:


> I neutered my boy at 7 months, but it is a decision I regret, a lot. He did not fill out nearly as much as he should, even though he is field bred, thus more leaner built. I would definitely recommend 1-2 years, for her overall health and development.


I've been told that at least 7 mos as their bone growth can be stunted if done earlier. Common answers I've read from vets pretty much agree on the later in puppyhood to young adulthood the better. Does make sense.


nenie18 said:


> I was thinking the same.... I kind of wanted her to be more "adult" like before doing It. Since I have never had a female dog to go through heat, I will need support there! I am clueless as to what to expect! What age does it usually happen?





SoCalEngr said:


> Up front, this issue is almost the reason why I didn't get a golden. I couldn't get what I considered to be a definitive "do this" with backing data.
> 
> I am not providing any backing data for the following, as it is all over the Internet with both pro/con arguments. But, I did do quite a bit of Googling, to the point it seemed overwhelming with the seemingly contradictory opinions. And, I welcome being contradicted, but please point me to a source (which, hopefully, is not a person, however well qualified, simply providing opinions without providing sources for data driving those opinions).
> 
> ...


 Wow I could not agree with you more!


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

two years...


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## Dunmar (Apr 15, 2020)

I am glad I found this. My baby is 13 week old.. soon to be 14. I just assumed she needed spade at 5 months like the other girls I've had. My others were rescues and it was in the contract. 
My last girl died at 15 from some kind of cancer in her leg. I got her at a year and unsure when she was spade.


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## three retirees (Aug 31, 2018)

My girl is 9 years old. She is in her heat cycle for 9 days so far. Stuck pig syndrome for her. 

My previous Golden Girl passed at 9 years 3 months from Hemangiosarcoma. She passed almost 5 years to the day she was spayed. 

If you want a permanent puppy/adolescent then spay before the first heat. No hormones means no growth of body to adult dog. If you wait till the 2nd heat your girl will become an adult dog in all ways. 

I will keep my unspayed girl as she is. Messy yes. She is velcro to me. No problem on walks with a lease.


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## goldenpupper (Jun 3, 2018)

I too have a 5 month old golden female and am confused about when to spay her. According to the more recent UC Davis study published in 2014, neutering golden females at any point beyond 6 months increased the risk of one or more cancers to 3 to 4 times the level of intact females. The same study showed an increased risk of CCL tears for females neutered before 6 months of age compared to intact females (and an increased risk of CCL tears for females neutered between 6-12 months). So if you had to spay your dog (as is our case since she goes to doggy daycare which requires it), it would seem before 6 months would be best if you want to mitigate the risk of cancer associated with spaying.

However, our vet said that prior to 6 months is too early and that they won't do any spays before then.









Neutering health effects more severe for golden retrievers than Labradors


Labrador retrievers are less vulnerable than golden retrievers to the long-term health effects of neutering, as evidenced by higher rates of certain joint disorders and devastating cancers, according to a new study by researchers at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary...




www.ucdavis.edu


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

goldenpupper said:


> I too have a 5 month old golden female and am confused about when to spay her. According to the more recent UC Davis study published in 2014, neutering golden females at any point beyond 6 months increased the risk of one or more cancers to 3 to 4 times the level of intact females. The same study showed an increased risk of CCL tears for females neutered before 6 months of age compared to intact females (and an increased risk of CCL tears for females neutered between 6-12 months). So if you had to spay your dog (as is our case since she goes to doggy daycare which requires it), it would seem before 6 months would be best if you want to mitigate the risk of cancer associated with spaying.
> 
> However, our vet said that prior to 6 months is too early and that they won't do any spays before then.
> 
> ...


No, the risk of hemangiosarcoma and mast cell cancer was increased if spayed *after 12 months, *not after 6 months. The study defined "late spay" as spayed after 12 months of age. So according to this one study (which is the best study we've got until data from the Golden Retriever Lifetime Study starts to come out) you're reducing the risk of cancer if you spay before 12 months old* or* never spay at all. Never spaying at all seems to be the best bet in terms of cancer risk reduction but it may not be a practical option for some people. 

We also use doggie daycare as part of Luna's usual activity, she gets a ton of exercise (her muscle tone is awesome) and she loves playing with other dogs. I was so conflicted when trying to decide when to spay her.. looked into ovary sparing spay but they still go into heat with that type of spay so she would not be able to attend doggie daycare since a female in season can cause discord amongst a group of dogs. Also there are very few veterinarians that are actually skilled at that particular procedure.

I ended up choosing a laparoscopic spay at 8 months. Having her out of daycare for 2 months was about our limit in terms of having to come home after work and exercise / play with her for a full 2 hours every single day and having to arrange a walker for every day. Overall, I felt like she got a couple extra months of hormones for growing but we still spayed prior to the 12 month mark to hopefully reduce the risk of hemangiosarcoma and mast cell cancer.


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## goldenpupper (Jun 3, 2018)

eeerrrmmm1 said:


> No, the risk of hemangiosarcoma and mast cell cancer was increased if spayed *after 12 months, *not after 6 months. The study defined "late spay" as spayed after 12 months of age. So according to this one study (which is the best study we've got until data from the Golden Retriever Lifetime Study starts to come out) you're reducing the risk of cancer if you spay before 12 months old* or* never spay at all. Never spaying at all seems to be the best bet in terms of cancer risk reduction but it may not be a practical option for some people.
> 
> We also use doggie daycare as part of Luna's usual activity, she gets a ton of exercise (her muscle tone is awesome) and she loves playing with other dogs. I was so conflicted when trying to decide when to spay her.. looked into ovary sparing spay but they still go into heat with that type of spay so she would not be able to attend doggie daycare since a female in season can cause discord amongst a group of dogs. Also there are very few veterinarians that are actually skilled at that particular procedure.
> 
> I ended up choosing a laparoscopic spay at 8 months. Having her out of daycare for 2 months was about our limit in terms of having to come home after work and exercise / play with her for a full 2 hours every single day and having to arrange a walker for every day. Overall, I felt like she got a couple extra months of hormones for growing but we still spayed prior to the 12 month mark to hopefully reduce the risk of hemangiosarcoma and mast cell cancer.


I think you are talking about the 2013 UC Davis study but I am talking about the 2014 UC Davis study by Hart et al. This study breaks down the neutering categories even further to <6 months, 6-11 months, etc based on gender and dog type. I cited it here and also included an article that summarizes it. 









Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers


Our recent study on the effects of neutering (including spaying) in Golden Retrievers in markedly increasing the incidence of two joint disorders and three cancers prompted this study and a comparison of Golden and Labrador Retrievers. Veterinary hospital records were examined over a 13-year...




journals.plos.org




From the discussion portion of the article: 
"In Golden Retriever females neutering females at any neuter period beyond 6 months elevated the risk of one or more cancers to 3 to 4 times the level of intact females (Figure 2)."

I have attached figure 2 which shows neutering increases cancer in all neutering groups but the smallest increase is in the less than 6 months category.

Article that summarizes the study








Neutering health effects more severe for golden retrievers than Labradors


Labrador retrievers are less vulnerable than golden retrievers to the long-term health effects of neutering, as evidenced by higher rates of certain joint disorders and devastating cancers, according to a new study by researchers at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary...




www.ucdavis.edu




"Neutering appeared to have little effect on the cancer rate of male goldens. However, in female goldens, neutering at any point beyond 6 months elevated the risk of one or more cancers to three to four times the level of non-neutered females."


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

goldenpupper said:


> I think you are talking about the 2013 UC Davis study but I am talking about the 2014 UC Davis study by Hart et al. This study breaks down the neutering categories even further to <6 months, 6-11 months, etc based on gender and dog type. I cited it here and also included an article that summarizes it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I was referring to the 2013 study. I looked at the link you provided and strongly feel that the statement that "in female goldens, neutering at any point beyond 6 months elevated the risk of one or more cancers to three to four times" from the article is unnecessarily general (to the point of being misleading) given the actual data from the study which showed an increased risk of mast cell tumors in girls neutered before 6 months of age as compared to those neutered between 6-12 months and the rate of hemangiosarcoma was about the same in girls spayed before 6 months or between 6-12 months and only elevated in females spayed over a year old.

The only cancer that was increased for girls neutered between 6-12 months vs those spayed before 6 months was lymphoma in both males and females neutered between 6-12 months. That's actually quite a dramatic increase and is concerning. It would need to be weighed against the increased risk for MCT if spaying before 6 months and the potential for increased joint disorders.

I really can't wait until we have better data than just two relatively small studies.


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