# 7 Year Old With Dog Aggression



## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

We have had Seger and his littermate, Oakley, since they were puppies. They turned 7 last week. Since about the age of 2, Seger has been dog aggressive, and it seems to be getting worse. Perhaps had we been more experienced, or had access to better resources, we might have been able to curb it at an earlier age but in spite of trying different things we have not been able to get it under control. We took them to beginner and advanced obedience and Seger won for most obedient in the class. In 2008 we invested in an in-home trainer (I am not sure if I can name companies on this forum) but to be honest it seemed to result in Seger becoming insecure and I think added to his aggression. 
We have had 2 instances in the past 2 months that really upset me. One, Seger was off leash at the cottage. Our lot is fully fenced (so they cannot get out) except at the beach but our beach is separate from our neighbors , not shared. Seger spotted a dog 3 cottages down, and before we knew it had beelined down the lawn, into the water and actually bounded through the water, around the docks and down the shoreline, and ran at this dog. What the owner said he saw was his dog chasing Seger, then Seger turned and grabbed his dog by the leg. He drew blood. When we got there Seger was wagging his tail and ran to greet us.
Last night I was walking Oakley and Seger together. I use gentle leaders. We saw a neighbor approaching with his dalmation on leash. As we approached on opposite sides of the road, he said he would make his dog sit until we got past. Well, Seger deked across in front of me, taking Oakley and I with him. He did not get to the dog - but he managed to twist around and get out of his gentle leader. Thankfully it was attached to his collar and I was able to keep hold of it and twist his collar a bit to tighten it up so he couldn't back out of it which is what he was trying to do.
The next thing he does in these situations, because Oakley starts barking and acting up too, is he lunges at Oakley snarling.
So he starts out after the other dog, when Oakley follows suit, Seger goes after Oakley snarling. So here I was trying to keep them apart, and stop Seger from getting out of his collar.
I asked the neighbor to please take his dog into his yard - he seemd to be frozen on the spot watching me. I think he was absolutely shocked at what he saw.Seger started out after his dog then turned on Oakley. It was a horror.
Anyway my question is, has anyone ever lived with dog aggression that you just cannot stop. I have had 5 years of this and quite honestly I am really discouraged by it and have had enough. We cannot take Seger anywhere, for fear of running into a dog. Off leash, except at the cottage, is out of the question. Now I am on pins and needles there. We walk a lot but I know it doesn't replace that off leash activity they need. 99% of the time we can control Seger to get past the other dog. I rarely walk the 2 together - only if I am home along.I am confident that if Seger did get at another dog he could seriously hurt it. 
It seems that he goes in for that initial attack, kind of like "getting there first". He "puts the dog in its place" then he seems fine. So a very aggressive and inappropriate greeting. I know he needs socialization but how do we do that knowing he'll attack? 
There is the odd dog that he totally ignores. But you never know.
We have thought about putting a muzzle on him and bringing him around my family's dogs (who all get along great - it is so sad we can't join them), but I'm concerned one might go after him then he is defenseless.
We have no access to trainers where I live. We do the basic stuff like go out the door before Seger, make him sit for meals, wait at the top of the stairs until told to come down etc. He's a pretty good leash walker and corrects very easily. He is a real "family" dog, very affectionate but at the same time demanding of our attention. He tends to "bully" Oakley in the house by growling at him, not letting him come up the stairs etc. One deep voiced "Seger no" stops it though.
He is a very intelligent dog, but a switch seems to turn on when he sees another dog and he does not even acknowledge we are there.
I actually came home the other night so upset and told DH that I am afraid we may have to put him down. That is how desperate I feel. Can anyone help me? Any suggestions? Not NILFF type of thing - we do that all the time.
I might mention our local breeder turned to another breed after this litter so offered no support from the start - when we started to notice this behavior in Seger I contacted her but she had not kept in touch with any of the litter owners so couldn't tell me if any others were seeing the same behavior in their pups, nor was she interested in helping me.
I have read of people who have dealt with dog aggression the dog's entire life - I just cannot guarantee Seger will never happen upon another dog and I am fearful he will hurt it.
Can anyone offer any advice? As I said we have no trainers, behaviorists etc here. Seger is on thyroid meds for low thyroid. He also sees a canine chiropractor for leg spasms and rear toe dragging - you can search my other posts and see my you-tube videos about that. 
Maybe he has something neurological going on??? I am also not near any vet school. Can anyone help? Thanks
Carol


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Can I ask what your financial status is? 
If you are able to, travel and see a veterinary behaviorist. That would be THE best option. A second would be to bring in a trainer. Yes, high fees for their travel, let alone the lesson, but it is an option. [And if there really aren't any in your area, maybe you want to get together with other dog owners in your area and share some of the costs/lessons?] Another would be to travel to a competent instructor and do several lessons a day for a few days.

If money is an issues, there is stuff you can do at home to help.

1) There is an aggressive dogs yahoo group that you should join and you would get help and support. It's called "agbeh."
2) Up your management. Walk only one dog at a time. Have him on a longline at the cottage so he can't escape. Plan your walks for times when other people are less likely to be out. Take another person with you. Have two leashes/collars on your dog at all times. Definitely get a muzzle (basket muzzle, PM and I'll find my favorite for you) and teach him to LOVE it.
3) Training. On walks, feed a small treat every 3-4 steps. Feed more often if you see another dog. Even if it's far away. Stay far enough away that your dog is calm. Get a few books on dog body language. You need to change his emotional response to other dogs. This will take a LOT of repetitions
4) If he DOES get loose... he will have got off the longline at home or two leashes on walks, and it's just not likely to happen. Take citronella spray (called "Shield spray" or "Direct stop") on walks and when outside. If you need to break up a fight, you'll have one tool at hand.

I would NOT muzzle him and put him with other dogs. He would bully the other dogs and they would quickly dislike him. It would not be good for anyone. We want him to have good experiences around other dogs, not stressful ones.

DO only walk one dog at all times, ESPECIALLY because you know he may redirect to your other dog.

DO stop punishment with him: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

Always stay far enough away from other dogs that he is attentive to you and willing to eat treats. If he is not eating, you are too close. You may have to stop walks for a few weeks/months while you work on this stuff but if he continues to have stressful experiences, that will only hold you back.

A trip to a vet neurologist is a good idea. 

For a dog with his history, you will have lifelong management in place. But you SHOULD be able to have safer, more relaxed, easier walks with appropriate training. I work with a lot of reactive dogs that have been this way for YEARS and been to other classes and trainers and events. And we have seen progress with every single dog in the class. And often more than we expected. Most of it is not specifically the class, but the owners learning appropriate management and how to plan and have safe walks. That leads to better training, feeling more confident, and the dog feeling more relaxed because he is never pushed over threshold.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Oakley&Seger's Mom*

Oakley&Seger's Mom

I am so sorry that you and Seger are going through this.
I am sure there will be many people that can offer suggestions.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Great advice Reddog.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm sorry that you and Seger are having problems with dog aggression. RedDogs gave great advice. I have been working with Roxy on her dog fear aggression for the past year. The book Click to Calm by Emma Parsons was very helpful. She had a dog aggressive golden retriever. There is a Yahoo group associated with the book. I practiced desensitizing Roxy with neighbor's dogs barking at her in their fenced yard when we walked by. I take her to an off-leash play class with a trainer twice a month. Sometimes we have to use the citronella spray if she gets aggressive during class, but she is learning to play nicely. I call and reward her for short polite greetings with other dogs.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Your story is very difficult. I had a similar experience with a very intelligent Schutzhund bred German Shepherd years ago - except there is a big difference. He went on alert with anyone (dogs and people) outside of our family. We had to put him down. It was a horrible - to love a dog so much and not be able to be with him outside of our home. Have you seen police dogs in action when they have caught the criminal? That was our dog. He could not be controlled when he thought he thought he was on duty - which started with anyone outside of our family and my sister's family who spent enough time with us and he knew. 

So, we were on constant lock-down - a very difficult thing with young, school-aged children. Yet when he was with us alone, my gosh, he was perfect - very, very smart. And we invested a lot of time with him and sought a lot of outside help - some not so good (in retrospect) and some very wise. Living with him made us prisoners in our home - and it was no life for him. The only place that would consider taking him was a guard dog service for a used car lot - and after visiting - lets just say I was horrified at the conditions - that was out of the question. We couldn't re-home him anywhere. And that is why we made the decision we did. 

What you are experiencing is very difficult - but, goodness, it can be managed. You may have a dog that cannot be around other dogs. You may have to get past that - but your dog is good with people and he sounds very intelligent. Re-direct his negative behavior with something challenging like agility. 

RedDogs has excellent guidance here; however, I would not put a muzzle on him - that will create an energy with people that he is to be feared. He will pick up on that and it will only make the situation more difficult. I would walk him alone so you can focus on his body language and physically manage him. You should be able to see at least a half a block away to anticipate potential dogs or situations that will trigger certain behaviors in him. Don't let him practice the lunging, twisting, jumping (I'm guessing that is what he is doing) - simply re-direct him - go in the opposite direction - keep his focus on you - whatever it takes, make it positive and don't let him go to that other place that sets him up to fail. If someone with another dog comes out of no where - and that will happen, take charge of the situation. Tell the person, that your dog is in training. Direct them to keep moving. I remember what that used to be like. The other owner stands there with their dog and just stares at you instead of moving on, which escalates the ruckus. And usually its someone who has no clue - no control over their own dog - so you will have to take charge of the situation with confidence. Think about it - what you will say, what you will do - so if it happens, you are in control with your voice and energy. 

I am so sorry. Truly sorry. I understand what you feel. Its embarrassing and physically exhausting at times - but I think with support and guidance, you can have a better life with him.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Great advice from Reddogs. 

Carol I cant remember but is Seger on thyroid meds? If he hasnt been tested, then I would have a thyroid test done. I know he has had some health issues and that might be some of it. But I do agree with having a behaviorist work with you also. Hope you can find out what is going on with him.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you for the very detailed responses and suggestions.
RedDogs - your advice is awesome! I walked Seger alone tonight, with 2 collars and leashes - I did feel much more secure. I did as you suggested and fed him small morsels every few steps to keep his attention on me. He was actually pretty good. I have joined the Yahoo group "Agbeh" and just received my confirmation email. They sent a long list of suggested readings so I will take some time on that. My sister is currently working with a dog behaviorist in Southern Ontario so I am going to see if there is any possibility of getting some help there. I am able financially to invest in whatever it takes to turn Seger around. I can imagine he is as stressed as I am about all of this so I have to make it work. 
Jimla - I have located and ordered the book you have suggested. Thank you.
Marty'sMom - thank you for clearly understanding what we are going through. I appreciate your sincerity. Tonite while we were walking a fellow came along with his dog and I just quietly steered Seger behind a parked car, made him sit and then distracted him with a treat. They got by and we proceeded with no drama. I was ready to tell him to keep moving if he slowed or came in our direction. Thankfully he kept going without mishap. I wish I could redirect Seger's energy and intelligence with agility but he has some issue where his back legs spasm and his toes drag, so he doesn't have the ability required for agility. I did play hide and seek with him in the house when we got home with one of his favorite balls and he seemed to really enjoy that stimulation. He is so smart 
Beaushel - you are correct Seger does have some health issues which have not been fully explained. He has been thyroid tested and is on meds for a hypothyroid.
I will continue to follow all of your advice and keep you posted. Again thank you for being so specific - it does help to hear from those with experience!
Carol


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

Millie was the same way with dogs and people. Although she never bit or got in a dog fight she was aggressive and was right from the time she was eight weeks old. She always had that "Make my Day" look on her face. I remember taking her for her first vet visit, she was like a little shark. My vet asked my where I got her from. He told me he had seen another golden puppy a male the same age that was mean. The people took him back to the person they got him from on the suggestion of my vet.
She only weighed 62 pounds so she was fairly easy to handle. When a dog or a person approached she would go nuts. Lunging barking showing her teeth. I would try not to let my nervousness go down the leash to her. When I seen a person walking a dog I would not even look at them I would relax and keep moving. Sometimes this worked others it did not. Most time if the other person agreed we would let them sniff and meet. She was always good with my grandkids and the neighbors kids. Though she did not like anyone that wore big sweatshirts or jackets with the big hoods.
One thing about her usually when she got close she would go totally the other way and start wagging her tail and whining. One time I could not get her to relax, a man walking a chocolate lab was coming towards us she got the craziest I have ever seen her get. She tried to get to that dog snarling, she did not like the man either he tried talking calmly to her and she snarled at him. 
When she was going to puppy class she always picked the biggest puppy to go after. Millie had severe HD and at the age of eight months had both hips repaired TPO three months apart. At the age of three she had her right crutiate repaired TPLO. She had nervous stomach and got sick easily. I fed her in a raised Brakefast bowl. This past January we lost her to Hemangiosarcoma. She was a tough little redhead and did not really show any signs she was sick until the last six days of her life.
I am not a professional but I think because she never really felt that well, that she felt vulnerable and was always on guard. I don't know maybe this is a little far fetched so to speak. Like a wounded animal does when it feels threatened. Has he always had the problem with his back feet or is it something that came on slowly? It might be that his health problem started coming on at the age of two slowly until it really showed up. Maybe this will shed a little light on his problem, then again I may be all wet. I hope you find the solution to his problem and he becomes a happier dog. [/COLOR][ZE][/FONT]


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

*We have had Seger and his littermate, Oakley, since they were puppies.*
- How often do you separate them and work with them individually? 
*Last night I was walking Oakley and Seger together. I use gentle leaders*
- For the most control over an aggressive dog and for more meaningful corrections... I have used pronged collars. This flies in the face of what the ASVAB says... but you're talking about putting your dog down. I find that highly motivated dogs can, as your story highlights pull out of the gentle leaders. Lately it seems negative corrections are the big bad boogy man in dog training and a lot of people disagree with them. Then again.... I've seen a lot of dog trainers claim that a dog was too far gone to rehabilitate. 
*The next thing he does in these situations, because Oakley starts barking and acting up too, is he lunges at Oakley snarling.*
- This is a sign of frustration and dominance. Since he can't get at the dog he's focused on, he's giving his attention to your other dog as an outlet. From the sounds of it you've recognized you have a problem and should have one person to a dog to correct them. What do you do to correct his behaviour when he starts trying to attack another dog or Oakley?
- How much exercise is he getting in a day? From the sounds of it you're starting to be fearful of bringing him out which will make him more frantic when he is brought along. Exercise him... the more exercise he gets the less energy output he'll have and less focused he'll be.
____________________

Take charge. You OWN him, not the other way around. Your dogs will only do what you allow them to. The standing up at the top of the stairs snarling a challenge at Oakley is completely unacceptable and would be where I started. How is Oakley during all of this???


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Oh, and for your location. South Porcupine really doesn't have much in its area. Contact Goldpaw Goldens in Timmins (Tammy) and ask if she has any recommendations for trainers in your guys area. www.goldpawgoldens.com She's a VERY good breeder.

(PS: She's also the best groomer in northern ontario for goldens if you want a gorgeous dog)


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Braccarius said:


> *We have had Seger and his littermate, Oakley, since they were puppies.*
> - How often do you separate them and work with them individually?
> *We rarely separate them - I know this is one of the things we have to change. This week I have been taking Seger alone.*
> *Last night I was walking Oakley and Seger together. I use gentle leaders*
> ...


*Oakley is intimidated. Sometimes he tiptoes around the house peeking into rooms and around corners looking for Seger. Oakley seems to sense when Seger is "crabby" - there are many days Seger ignores him, but then other days when Seger is a bully. When Seger does not let him up the stairs all I have to do is go stand between Seger and Oakley and call Oakley to come up - he usually circles wide to get past Seger. *


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Milliesmom - You Said - I am not a professional but I think because she never really felt that well, that she felt vulnerable and was always on guard. I don't know maybe this is a little far fetched so to speak. Like a wounded animal does when it feels threatened. Has he always had the problem with his back feet or is it something that came on slowly? It might be that his health problem started coming on at the age of two slowly until it really showed up. Maybe this will shed a little light on his problem, then again I may be all wet. I hope you find the solution to his problem and he becomes a happier dog.

*I too feel that there is something not quite "right" with Seger which makes him cranky. I often wonder if he is in pain and that contributes to his demeanor. His toe dragging was first noted when he was 2 years old. He started with leg spasms over a year ago. I really wish we could get to the bottom of all of that but unfortunately we have not been able to reach any conclusions. He is currently seeing a chiropractor every 3 weeks or so and his toe dragging improves remarkably after...but after 2 weeks or so it starts again. I was so hoping the thyroid was going to be the answer but we did not see a huge improvement in Seger after he started the meds. Some people said their dogs had total personality changes with correcting the thyroid levels but not so with Seger.*
*Thanks for your kind words though. I know you understand *
*Carol*


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

I have had good results using the Sense-ible front-hook harness from Softtouch Concepts. It is easy to redirect the dogs without pulling hard. Another alternative is the Easy Walk harness from Premier.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Just thought I would provide a bit of an update on Seger. I took RedDog's and others' advice and sought out the assistance of a behaviorist. We just had the 2 hour phone consultation last night and he is now drawing up the plan for Seger. Because of distances we went the conference call route and I think it is going to be effective. I immediately saw the difference in approach between a "trainer" and a "behaviorist". I am encouraged by his analysis of Seger and the plan he has suggested to us. I am anxious to receive the written plan, and get started. Our agreement includes weekly followup calls for 2 months to discuss Seger's progress. What he said made so much sense, and it is a plan I am comfortable with. I want to thank everyone for their support and suggestions.
Carol


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

Hi,
Our Golden "Brewer" was also very aggressive. We had an in-home trainer who tried very hard with him but Brewer never really mellowed out. We would have loved to bring him to outdoor restaurants, etc., but at the sight of another dog he'd go nuts. He was very obedient and always obeyed commands unless another dog was nearby. When he was on a leash he was actually worse.

He was delightful at home with us; but in his mind his mission in life was to keep any other dog at bay. When we fist saw him in his litter he was jumping on top of his littermates and dominating them. Obviously that was a red flag that we should not have overlooked. I really don't have any advice for you. We loved him for the family dog that he was (he lived to age 13) and resigned ourselves to keeping him at home and out of contact with other dogs.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Oakley&SegersMom said:


> Just thought I would provide a bit of an update on Seger. I took RedDog's and others' advice and sought out the assistance of a behaviorist. We just had the 2 hour phone consultation last night and he is now drawing up the plan for Seger. Because of distances we went the conference call route and I think it is going to be effective. I immediately saw the difference in approach between a "trainer" and a "behaviorist". I am encouraged by his analysis of Seger and the plan he has suggested to us. I am anxious to receive the written plan, and get started. Our agreement includes weekly followup calls for 2 months to discuss Seger's progress. What he said made so much sense, and it is a plan I am comfortable with. I want to thank everyone for their support and suggestions.
> Carol


When its all said and done give us the rundown of the plan this behaviourist has in mind for you.


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