# Sudden aggression



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I think most of what you are describing is normal behavior. What I would suggest though is that you interrupt the play before it gets too intense. I think he's likely getting over stimulated and then a bite (in play) sends him over the edge. Instead, interrupt, interrupt, interrupt when they are playing. Give him a hip bump if you see him starting to get ramped up. It's a physical interruption and it will help snap him out of it.

Just curious. How old was he when he left his litter? BTW, he's adorable!


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

fostermom said:


> I think most of what you are describing is normal behavior. What I would suggest though is that you interrupt the play before it gets too intense. I think he's likely getting over stimulated and then a bite (in play) sends him over the edge. Instead, interrupt, interrupt, interrupt when they are playing. Give him a hip bump if you see him starting to get ramped up. It's a physical interruption and it will help snap him out of it.
> 
> Just curious. How old was he when he left his litter? BTW, he's adorable!


I agree. I have 3 dogs now. The first two dogs worked things out pretty quietly but I have now added a puppy. I wasn't quite prepared for how my dog would correct the puppy. My Golden pretty much corrects her the most and it sounds pretty scary but I never see any sign of a bite mark. I just never knew how loud my girl could "yell," I guess.

Another time, my sister brought her dog over and we really have to watch her because she can be nervous reactive. The last time she was over, they had a scuttle and I thought they were really in a terrible fight the way they were growling and barking and snapping but after I separated them, there wasn't a scratch on either. So, I guess it was just a big yelling match.

That's not to say I want to put them in that situation again so the best thing is to keep an eye on them and try to keep it from escalating. My dogs will respond well enough if I just call their name so I interrupt them by calling their name as they play if I feel someone's getting too rough.

If it's out of the blue, then you need to watch their body language and keep them focused on you. Staring, stiffness in the body, raised hackles, growling are signs to look for. Keep treats by you and if you see them staring at the other dog, give them a toy and treat and keep them focused on you. Also, try to assure them they are okay and be relaxed yourself.

Try to pay attention to when it is happening. My older girl does not like to be bothered when she is trying to rest. Sometimes she is just laying down and sometimes she is trying to rest. After watching her, I can tell the difference, she will acknowledge the puppy if she is just laying down but will not if she is resting. If she doesn't do this and the puppy seems intent on going by her, I will tell the puppy to stop. You can try to figure out triggers with the two dogs and either remove them or prevent them.


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## amanfromthere (Mar 31, 2015)

fostermom said:


> I think most of what you are describing is normal behavior. What I would suggest though is that you interrupt the play before it gets too intense. I think he's likely getting over stimulated and then a bite (in play) sends him over the edge. Instead, interrupt, interrupt, interrupt when they are playing. Give him a hip bump if you see him starting to get ramped up. It's a physical interruption and it will help snap him out of it.
> 
> Just curious. How old was he when he left his litter? BTW, he's adorable!


I got him at just under 8 weeks. Earlier than I would have wanted but there were some timing/scheduling issues and it was unavoidable. 

They never played unsupervised, and I did find that when I was standing right over them and praising Oliver for playing nicely (especially when he was in a dominant position), he would mostly keep it in control, but not always. He gets stiff, hackles up, growls. I can pretty much always see it coming just by the way he growls, except for the one time he was apparently defending Seb, which was totally out of the blue. 

It's just the apparent ferocity of it that concerned me. Granted, Seb looks/sounds terrifying when he is playing but not to this degree.

Oakley is coming to visit this weekend, so maybe I'll try to get some video.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Video is a terrific idea. I would also make sure that whatever you post gives plenty of lead up time to any incident so that people can see that postures that came before.


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## amanfromthere (Mar 31, 2015)

Well, no big incidents yesterday. Aside from some normal play escalation that resulted in some time-outs to calm down a bit (for both of them), Ollie was pretty much fine. I was rather surprised because Oakley was being a real pain and just constantly antagonizing, nipping and grabbing ahold of his neck and ears, even when he was trying to take a nap. 

Here's a video of them playing anyways.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

The video looks like very appropriate, equally matched play. Puppies can get out of hand sometimes, and you are doing a good job reading the signs, so just interrupt them when you see it getting a little too intense. 

Beautiful pups by the way.


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## penelopelane (Jan 11, 2016)

This thread was the reason why I finally joined as a member. I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone and someone else is experiencing similar behavioural issues with their pup. Although, it's certainly not the most fortunate thing to share in common with someone, but here we are! 

I have a nearly 6.5mo old Golden Retriever/Cocker Spaniel mix (75/25) named Penny. She's the most lovable, affectionate, and beautiful girl, who's smart as a whip and has a little bit of sass to her at times. P is my first dog of my own, but I grew up always having dogs (all Retrievers-- a Chessie, several Labs, and a Golden) in our family and was very involved in their training, exercise, and enteral care. 

Penny and I live in a moderately-sized city that has plenty of outdoorsy activities to offer. I'm very active, so Penny gets lots of exercise (mostly on-leash) and some training daily. It's just Penny and myself and I don't have any friends or family who live here with dogs, so I have worried about her socialization/exposure to other people and dogs. We did do puppy classes, but haven't enrolled in any further obedience training yet (it's high on the to-do list). She is incredibly well-behaved while at home for the most part. Of course she has some puppy antics here and there (she jumps up and lightly nips at times), but none of the issues at home are worrisome. 

She has met all of our family dogs and they got along great. She seems to loves every person and dog she comes across, which is now getting to be an issue. Penny gets overly excited whenever we pass by someone/a dog while on our walks or if I have company over, and will try to lunge towards them a bit, but then after a correction will settle back down. I'm working on putting her into a sit-stay when a dog or person is approaching, but it's a work in progress. 

This behaviour is what made me start to wonder if she was lacking socialization because it's often just her and I, and aside from dogs on the street, I don't know anyone else with a dog here in the city. I didn't feel as though the sidewalk interaction was sufficient enough, and that's when I started thinking about the city dog parks. Dog parks were a foreign concept to me coming from a small, rural town, but I felt like it was worth a try for someone in my circumstances. 

Penny and I both had a great time the first few visits we went there. I enjoyed having her off-leash and walking the trails when there was less people/distractions. Aside from forgetting her manners and jumping up on people (and of course most of them letting her), she had great introductions with the dogs and it was going swimmingly. I always stayed close to her and kept watch, and a lot of the other dog owners actually did the same. It was great to chit chat and allow Penny to meet so many more dogs and humans of all sizes and ages. 

Penny gets along with just about everybody. She's been corrected a few times, but has always understood right away and submits as necessary. She had no problem romping around with dogs much larger than her, all of whom played well with her and were gentle and aware of the size/age difference. We never encountered a single issue until Sebastian (a St. Bernard/Great Pyrenees mix who was a bit younger than Penny, but twice her weight) started coming to the dog park. 

P and Seb hit it off immediately, and it was the first time that she had met another puppy around her age there. The two of them would romp around, then Seb would playfully flop onto his back and assume the submissive position and allow P to hop on top of him and take the dominant role-- keep in mind that the size difference here is at least 2:1. With Penny as the dominant, she began mouthing more than I've ever seen, actually "biting" and pulling at his throat and the sides of his face. Seb wasn't making a single peep and had the ability to overpower her at any time if he wanted it to stop, so I kept watching the two of them like a hawk. Penny started making these growling noises that just kept growing louder and more intense, and started snarling while latched onto Seb. Hackles were not up, but her body looked a little bit tense and I decided to intervene. I went and pulled Penny, who seemed to be in a bit of a trance, off of him for a puppy time-out. She snapped out of it right away and began to calm down. It wasn't long before Sebastian came galloping towards us, wondering why I took his playmate from him and begging for more. I decided to let them try again to see how it would unfold. Same sequence of events-- Seb almost immediately flopping on his back and Penny assuming the dominant role again. Started out okay, but then the growls got louder and worse and the snarls began and it was game over for the two of them again. Seb (who still never gave any indication that he wasn't having fun playing like that) looked up at me just like he did the first time, wondering what I was doing taking away his friend? This was just not an image or level of play that I'm comfortable with my dog displaying or partaking in, especially at the dog park. 

It happened on two more different occasions with two different dogs. One was a female Red Lab pup named Avery, who was very evenly matched with Penny in both size and age. They played very well together in the beginning, but then Penny pinned down Avery, assuming the dominant position, and it began again in the same way. I separated them as soon as I started hearing the low growls and seeing her snarling, but it never reached the level that it had with Sebastian. 

The last encounter was with an adult male Golden, who was so gentle and playful with her, then "pulled a Sebastian" and flopped right over onto his back for her to climb on top... Great. This time unfolded a little differently, as he corrected Penny, who immediately stopped, submitted to him, and snapped right out of it. They had a little cool down on their own, then went back to playfully romping and bowing and seemed to know their limits with each other. 

At this point, it's clear that the trigger is Penny assuming a dominant role while wrestling. She doesn't hesitate to submit though, and plays very nicely and quietly from that position. The last time was the first event with an adult dog vs. a puppy, and in two of the three encounters, the male dog opted to submit on his own. I'm no behavioural expert, but that's the information/pattern that I've observed. 

I haven't taken Penny back since the last encounter because it's just a behaviour that I'm not comfortable with and would rather avoid. There are some great dogs there, but I'm going to have to pursue other avenues to socialize her and just continue working with her during our walks. 

Any thoughts, advice, or input would be greatly appreciated! 

P.S. I apologize for the novel :flushed:


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

It sounds to me like Penny is just playing and getting a bit worked up while playing. If the other dogs aren't taking offense, I wouldn't worry about it, personally. Some dogs are just much more vocal when they play.


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