# should i switch to grain free?



## ksmith08 (Feb 14, 2018)

Hi Friends, I'm giving my 5mo "Wellness complete health puppy formula" but once in a while he is having soft stools but must more better than last time when i fed him royal canine. 

First I was feeding him Wellness CORE puppy food (grainfree) and he had very solid poop never had any soft stools. But I thought protein percentage in CORE product is quite high (36%) so i switched to complete health which has 29% Crude Protein.

Now I;m thinking should i slowly switch back to Wellness CORE puppy food (grain free)? I don't think 36% Crude Protein will cause any harm right? another concern is, without any valid reason giving him a grain free formula, is it good?

Wellness CORE puppy food (grain free) - https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/core-puppy-puppy
Wellness complete health - https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/complete-health-puppy-puppy

can you guys please compare these 2 products and let me know which one you think is more suitable for a golden pup?

Thanks
Kev


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

You will get different answers based on the personal philosophies of people on this forum. 

The calcium/phosphorous ratio is in the desired range for LBPs in both foods you posted. They are both high quality foods. Is there a reason you are thinking of switching back? I would pick whichever food my dog did the best on and go with that. 

All things being equal, this is my own philosophy: Dogs have been domesticated over centuries and have adapted to have grains in their diet. They fundamentally different than wolves. Dogs actually have more genes for starch digestion than wolves (wolves only have 2, but dogs 3-29). I can understand the argument for cats more, as they are carnivores. Also, there isn't hard, rigorous scientific evidence that grain free is the way to be. So I wouldn't personally go out of my way to do it. Dogs are far more likely to be allergic to the proteins in meats, (chicken, beef, eggs, etc). With that being said, there are dogs out there who definitively do better on grain free. 

Piper's food (Pro Plan SSS lamb & oats) doesn't have chicken, beef, corn, or wheat products in it. The proteins are lamb and fish, grains are oatmeal and barley. She was on Fromm Gold LBP and Adult, which have the same grains but are poultry-based and lower in fiber. I chose the Pro Plan SSS lamb & oat because the grain sources were the same, to help figure out what was the issue. So its likely that Piper needs higher fiber, and to not have poultry. 

I'm +/- personally about gluten free, but I don't mind avoiding corn products when possible as growing corn is not particularly great for the environment.

So personally, I don't do grain-free, but would if it seemed my dog was having issues with foods. I had Piper briefly on Fromm Surf and Turf grain free for a while as a puppy, her poops were just too loose. For many dogs (like mine), grain free is not the way to go because the foods may not necessarily have enough fiber. 

I think you have to figure out what is working best for your dog, and then what your own personal philosophy is.


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## ksmith08 (Feb 14, 2018)

Piper_the_goldenpuppy said:


> You will get different answers based on the personal philosophies of people on this forum.
> 
> The calcium/phosphorous ratio is in the desired range for LBPs in both foods you posted. They are both high quality foods. Is there a reason you are thinking of switching back? I would pick whichever food my dog did the best on and go with that.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that detailed explanation. I really appreciate it. So basically when i was giving him grain free CORE product he never had soft stools. With this complete health at times its very soft. 

when i compare both products, complete health has Salmon Meal in addition. So my guess is that's what causing the trouble. He never had any issues with grain free CORE product which contains - Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal.

My vet said we must give him good fiber food coz it will help with anal glands expression.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Its just my own personal opinion--not whats right for everybody, but it is whats right for me. I had a dog with IBD and a ton of sensitivity issues, so I spent a lot of time researching doggie diets. 

It sounds like the GF Core may work better for him in that case and might be the best bet. It could be the salmon meal, it could be a grain issue, or its just that happens to be a good protein/carb/fiber ratio for him. For people who feel strongly about it, or for people whose dogs do better with it, its the way to go. 

Piper had anal gland issues for a bit from her stools being so soft. But now that she's on a food that she tolerates, fortunately those issues are gone!


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

I would be concerned feeding a grain free diet to a golden retriever, particularly since I looked up the ingredients on the Wellness Core Puppy food and it seems that it contains peas (5th ingredient listed) which has been implicated to be one cause of Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers. Source link: https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-dog-food/product-catalog/core-puppy-puppy



> Ingredients
> Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Potatoes, Peas, Potato Protein, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Dried Ground Potatoes, Tomato Pomace, Natural Chicken Flavor, Salmon Oil, Ground Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Bananas, Spinach, Vitamin E Supplement, Broccoli, Carrots, Choline Chloride, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Kale, Sweet Potatoes, Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols added to preserve freshness, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Carbonate, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Copper Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Iodate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Dried Lactobacillus plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Green Tea Extract, Spearmint Extract.



You may want to review this thread discussing Taurine Deficiency which can lead to Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...gy-breed-standard/455266-low-taurine-dcm.html

There are also two good Facebook pages, if you use Facebook. 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1952593284998859/
Page Description: 
Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) is a condition affecting a rapidly increasing number of Golden Retrievers in which the heart becomes enlarged and cannot pump blood efficiently, leading to decreased heart function affecting the lungs, liver, and other body systems. DCM is one of several cardiomyopathies, a group of diseases that affect primarily the myocardium, aka the muscle of the heart.

The purpose of this closed group is to discuss and share information concerning Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM) in Golden Retrievers and other breeds among Breeders, Nutritionists, Food company representatives and members of the DVM and research community.

Love of learning is the guide of life. ALL ideas relating to Taurine Deficient DCM are open for discussion.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/
Page Description: 
This group is for the study, discussion and dissemination of information concerning all subjects related to Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Unless you have allergies to grains there is really no reason to go "grain free". My concern is it sounds like you have changed foods so often. The action of changing foods for any dog is hard and you have a puppy. 

Some of the higher priced foods are really high in protein. This is great for dogs that work for a living  but often too rich for the rest of us. What we feed our pups is like picking out a purse, it's a personal decision. What works great for one dog may not sit well for another. 

You might go to dogfoodadvisor.com and select a 4 star food that is readily available in your area.. or available on chewy.com. Lamb is usually the easiest to digest, salmon / fish can be a little rich for some and some dogs have problems with chicken. 
But whatever you decide, pick something and stick with it if you can. Changing foods can be a cause for soft stools.

On advice of the vet and breeder I put my girl on adult food at 4 months. We had a very sick pup and put her on Blue Wilderness Salmon to help her immune system. This worked well for almost 2 yrs then their formula must have changed as it started giving her loose stools. We moved her over to 4health lamb & rice (Available from Tractor Supply) and she is doing great on this. It's also half the price! My last golden did really great on Nutro lamb and rice, many people on the forum rave about Proplan.


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## ksmith08 (Feb 14, 2018)

thank you very much guys i really appreciate all these comments.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

puddles everywhere said:


> Lamb is usually the easiest to digest, salmon / fish can be a little rich for some and some dogs have problems with chicken.


This is so interesting to know! I wonder if thats part of the reason Piper has done so well on the ProPlan SSS Lamb.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

My guys had problems with chicken so I switched to PPP SSS, the formula with Salmon. They both had sensitive stomachs and within a day or two I saw an immediate improvement with their stool problems. It also has a probiotic in it. 

You may want to look at this thread-

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...low-taurine-grain-free-foods-dcm-goldens.html


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I’ve heard that grain free is bad for goldens. I feed mine Purina Pro Plan Sport. They are doing very well on it.


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## Melfice (Aug 4, 2012)

Piper_the_goldenpuppy said:


> This is so interesting to know! I wonder if thats part of the reason Piper has done so well on the ProPlan SSS Lamb.


I had to keep Rusty on Fromm Lamb, because his stomach was having issues with other food types (throwing up during the night, and upset tummy). Between this, and researching the best food types for my dogs...I moved them all to a raw food diet, and Rusty's stomach issues went away. 

That's besides the point, but it does seem like lamb is easier on a dog's system for a dry food options etc.


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## Golden_Dad (Apr 10, 2018)

After watching Pet Fooled on Netflix (a documentary on the pet food industry), I concluded that one should buy the best food they can afford -- one that avoids fillers, excessive processing, and contains natural ingredients. I ended up with Orijen Large Breed Puppy, as it was the closest to Raw Diet. It is grain free, and puppy is doing well on it. The other one on my short list was Fromm Large Breed Puppy Gold.

Put my older (6 year old) golden on Orijen Senior.

But this food thing is a mystery to me -- I think I'm doing the right thing, but am not fully confident. Read everything I could find on the subject including threads here.

I've been told that duck is easy to digest, lamb, as well. Used duck on a puppy once that was having problems, and it worked well.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

At this point I would not feed my dogs Grain Free food until the results of the taurine deficient dilated cardiomyopathy study have some type of conclusion. Just because a food has five stars, four stars, and is expensive, does not mean it is the best for our goldens. It might even be good for other breeds and not our breed, the study will hopefully determine that.

I am staying away from anything Grain Free and anything that has peas and legumes in the first 10 ingredients. In addition, if you are feeding lamb, I would make sure the food company is adding enough taurine to the ingredients.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Lamb is a red meat and all red meat is actually harder to digest then poultry or fish. It's just a different amino acid profile so it probably just works for the dogs that are doing well on it.

As many have stated, grain free foods overall should probably be avoided unless you have grain sensitivities. Grain Free foods I believe have a niche. One example would be he EVO food. K9 is around 12% (max 17%) carbs and 88% of the protein comes from meat. The reason why I bring up the carbs is for diabetic dogs. I've seen diabetic dogs on 5+ units of insulin reduce to 1 or 2 units and in some cases completely come off the insulin. All grain free foods are not even close to being equal so you have to make sure protein and fat are high for the carbs to be low. EVO is a 42% protein and 22% fat. 

For the every day dog, I don't believe they should be on a grain free food just for the sake of it.


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## Golden_Dad (Apr 10, 2018)

I appreciate the two post above from Cubbysan and Maggie. I am switching both the puppy and the 6 year old to Fromm -- Large Breed Puppy Gold, and Senior Gold, respectively, from the Grain Free Orijen. Hope they like it.


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