# Treading water, down the shore, and other water blind questions



## goodog (May 6, 2013)

Wow! You have picked excellent questions. 



General--If you are training at this level, its very important to be following a consistent training program. Be fair to your dog. Bill Hillmann, Mike Lardy and Danny Farmer all have excellent programs, One works on positive reinforcement and others, on negative reinforcement. 



2 sided dogs - shore blinds: in a perfect world, heeling on both sides is optimal. However, dogs are right or left handed -dominant eyes-etc. Just like us. They can be taught to heal on both sides, but they will perform better on one side. It depends much on the dog, I know both 1 and 2 sided heelers that are superlative field dogs. MH or QAA


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Stacey, it has been a while but it seemed to my that both my dogs were naturals for treading water. First stopping and T work was done on land to perfection. My mentor always said if they handle on land they will handle in water and that includes stopping. Just like on land, blow the sit whistle and don't rush the cast. The dog stops and looks waiting for the cast.


It seems to me the dogs who do best with this are the ones who are extremely comfortable in water.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

1. When I whistle sit, even in water, there is no hunting. We are running a blind.

2. We work for holding lines into water. The rest depends on where we are in training and the blind we’re running.
In general I have my line to the blind and we challenge it. Dog hunting on point, nope we are running a blind.

3. See above.

4. Not two sided. I have enough to hold in my brain with one side.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

First question - I actually start the practice on land. I count to 3 slowly before casting. The dog gets used to waiting before you cast. Now it depends on how the dog turns and also how far off line the dog is as far as waiting to give a cast - some situations call for a quick cast while others you want to have the dog treading water before casting - especially after a cast refusal). If I need more into the direction of turning I walk slowly in that direction while the dog threads water towards me before giving the cast. If the dog goes into a spin I toot toot in and then toot for sit. 

Second question. I do not stop my dogs at the water edge right before a water entry. I want to have the momentum of going into the water even if the line is off. I want the line to be correct several yards before my dog enters the water. (remember - "if you train for momentum, precision will come; if you train for precision you kill the momentum"). 

Third question. Unless it is a pattern blind I always stop on a point on a cold blind. Depending on the point I try to always give the inside cast either a silent angle back or an over so I can see the dog to handle once it is back in the water. 

Fourth question. My dogs are double sided. However that depends on the dog itself and the level of training. If the water is on the right I am hesitant to run my dog from the right because that would entice them to seek the open water so I run from the left to communicate to the dog that it is land first. And even that sometimes does not do it as they are honest to get into the water.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Great questions, Alaska!
More later.

FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> 1. How do you teach your dog to tread water and wait for you to cast? Some dogs tread water better than others. Some spin really quickly on a whistle, some are very slow. So along with that question, how long do you wait for your dog to spin around and face you, how do you motivate them to spin faster? While you are hitting that whistle, the dog is thinking about where's that duck going to be. I have a friend with a master hunter that always looks like he's about to drown when he's in water. He gets the job done, but he gives you a heart attack watching him. For some reason mastering the dog paddle hasn't happened for him, but he does tread water on the whistle very nicely.


Ha! This reminds me of a training buddy who has a four year old QAA lab that still doesn't swim or tread water like a big dog, he tries to keep his head well above water when he swims so he's far too perpendicular than he should be. 
Of course, the fundamental "stop when I blow the whistle and look at me until I give you a cast" is established on land and should carry over to water; certainly, a slow or loopy sit on land will manifest in the water. 
A collar correction is how I address a slow or sloppy sit. Being very careful with collar pressure is important, but sometimes it must be utilized if the dog is ignoring the whistle (when necessary, I use a low continuous until the dog turns around). Whistle refusals are a pretty big deal. Charlie Morgan made a point in his book (btw, it's a GREAT read) that the dog needs to be scared to not stop when he hears a whistle. 



Alaska7133 said:


> 2. We all want to hit the whistle before they enter the water so we can get the dog headed in the right direction before they enter the water, but it's not always possible if the water's edge is close. What are the points of a water blind are you planning ahead to use a whistle if you need to, beginning, middle of swim, nearing the end of a swim, or wait until they get on land?


I'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence ... hopefully on the initial line the dog s headed in the right direction well before he gets to the water, so a whistle at the water's edge is not necessary. On rare occasion or in certain circumstances a whistle before entering the water is called for (e.g., if there's a steep bank at the entry and something is kicking the dogs off line before they get back in sight again). When I run a tough blind, I'll plan several spots along the way that I want my dog to hit and if he's going to miss a spot, I'll stop and cast as necessary. [Some dogs will benefit from an early whistle in order to get them in the right mind-set to run a blind.]



Alaska7133 said:


> 3. How do you feel about hitting the whistle once they get out of the water and handle over a point or off an island? Sometimes it can be difficult once a dog has left the water, they want to find that bird on land, so stopping them and casting them back in the water can be interesting, what do you do to promote them re-entering the water?


When the line is over a point or island, always set up the dog to exit the water where you want/need him to exit ... it's easier to move him around when he's in the water than when he's on land.
As for the last sub-question, to promote re-entering the water ... pressure on the point. Also, re-visiting swim-by can clean this up if it's caught early enough (i.e., before a bad habit is established). Some dogs will seek the water as soon as they get on a point, but typically those dogs have had pressure on a point at some time in their life; a few dogs are naturally water-focused and, with them, getting them to get ON a point is the challenge (I've had a couple of them).



Alaska7133 said:


> 4. Down the shore are blinds that require the dog to either run on land to the blind or enter the water and swim to the blind, or a combination of both. Do you find 2 sided dogs do better on down the shore blinds, or does it really matter?


This is where two-sided training comes in handy, but it's not essential. If the dog is well schooled to go where pointed, it doesn't matter if he's one or two-sided.
I've had both ... actually, I use two-sided heeling more often to give me the ability to help the dog turn to the proper mark.

FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

I expected more discussion on these important topics ....


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Ok let’s take Question 2.
I take it this is talking about training.

In training I’m working for clean lines on blinds whether it’s land or water. If I don’t have them I would probably go back and make sure I have solid lines in my land lining drills. If not I would fix this first.
If land is good then move to water. So I’m assuming that this is not a 50 yard entry into water but 10-20? And that the level of suction isn’t sky high but this is about basic clean line.
So if my line is not good from my hip I’m calling my dog all the back to me. Depending where you are in trading you may be giving pressure. At this point with Fly he is getting pressure coming back in. I’m probably taken g a step forward or two and then lining him up again. Now here is what Flyer was pulling earlier this summer, he wouldn’t give me the line. I learn that a nick step forward at this point cut thru the avoidance and he would lock on the line like it was drawn on the ground. The more I let him get away with the more he tries to play me. 
This is kinda short and very basic. I’m sure I left out some points but trying to get the ball rolling. Flyer and I are running at the Master level. 
Anyone else?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

FTGoldens said:


> I expected more discussion on these important topics ....





OK then..


I watched one hunt test where the line to the blind was a land---water---over a point---water re-entry, across water to the blind on a shoreline. I only watched 3 or 4 dogs run but every handler stopped his dog on the point. Why stop the dog? I almost felt it was for momentum.


PS I bet I know how Charlie Morgan dealt with slipping a whistle...>


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Over a point I’m not horribly worried about. We train on a point/by a point all the time. So if it is just the end of the point Flyer knows he is getting back in and I Usually don’t have to stop and cast. Over a peninsula especially if we are angling over it I have little bigger breath in my lungs and I’m watching him get up on the peninsula like a hawk. (If we are taking it straight on not so worried) Is he charging out of the water, is his nose going down, are his shoulders turning. I’m my head I’m thinking come on Fly Fly carry the line. 
If I see anything I whistle sit and cast. Early intervention seems to keep us out of trouble right now. Angled peninsula especially with scent holding cover——I’m lthinking OH Boy.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

gdgli said:


> OK then..
> 
> 
> I watched one hunt test where the line to the blind was a land---water---over a point---water re-entry, across water to the blind on a shoreline. I only watched 3 or 4 dogs run but every handler stopped his dog on the point. Why stop the dog? I almost felt it was for momentum.
> ...


So here is an example where I would always stop. Dog crosses the dam, I will not see the dog once it re-enters the water for couple yards. If dog squares the water it will be way too far on the hill. Dog has to kiss that hill. Then again dog has to re-enter the water. Same scenario, if dog stays on the line I lose sight of the dog. In both scenarios I will give a silent angle back. 

A blind is a test of control and you cannot control/handle a dog you cannot see. 

If the dog does not take the cast, call back, nick and recast. 

I lost Rose on a Master water blind because she did not take my cast off the island she was supposed to kiss and went over another peninsula and had a banana line to the bird.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

So I’m training here right? If I’m running that blind Claudia I have done the work. I have re entry blinds, he will hold angles thru multiple challenges. 
If Flyer has held the line and charging hard when he hit your first stopping point I’m going to let him roll. Hey it’s training, I would want to see if he understands the set up and keeps holding the line.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The recent few posts are perfect examples of testing vs. training and how we might run those two scenarios completely different with the same dog. 
In TRAINING I want the dog to MAKE THE RIGHT CHOICE. If I stop him before he enters water and on a point/peninsula a majority of the time to gain control and show him where to go, he will never learn to do it himself...in fact he'll probably anticipate and lose momentum over time. I am loath to stop around water IN TRAINING. It can hurt you both on your entries and exits. Again -- yes, even in blinds -- dogs learn to see pictures and choose the right path. It takes time but with good consistent setups and training they learn to know where the blind is and where to go. (easy example = channel blind or down the shore)
Testing = completely different. Keep control.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hollyk said:


> So I’m training here right? If I’m running that blind Claudia I have done the work. I have re entry blinds, he will hold angles thru multiple challenges.
> If Flyer has held the line and charging hard when he hit your first stopping point I’m going to let him roll. Hey it’s training, I would want to see if he understands the set up and keeps holding the line.


Yes, it is a balance. If you always stop the dog will eventually start to pop. If you never stop the dog will start slipping whistles, giving cast refusals and do it's own blind based on its OWN picture. I do not like to line blinds much. While holding the cast for a good distance is good for confidence and momentum it is also team work.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Yes, it is a balance. If you always stop the dog will eventually start to pop. If you never stop the dog will start slipping whistles, giving cast refusals and do it's own blind based on its OWN picture. I do not like to line blinds much. While holding the cast for a good distance is good for confidence and momentum it is also team work.


Sure, but I’m also not going to stop the dog at critical decisions points. I too want to see what the dog will do. Is my training there? Again if I’m running that blind I have done the work and I haven’t just thrown him in over his head. If that’s the blind of the day and if we weren’t ready for it there are many places to move up and run it from. My guess is Flyer would not have lined that blind giving me opportunities to stop him but if he did then I would have let him line it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hollyk said:


> Sure, but I’m also not going to stop the dog at critical decisions points. I too want to see what the dog will do. Is my training there? Again if I’m running that blind I have done the work and I haven’t just thrown him in over his head. If that’s the blind of the day and if we weren’t ready for it there are many places to move up and run it from. My guess is Flyer would not have lined that blind giving me opportunities to stop him but if he did then I would have let him line it.


I try to always have 2 to 3 blinds in a training session. One is training, the second one is applying the same concept with a different line and the third is confidence easier blind. Some days I start with the easy blind and some days I finish with the easy blind. 

The second one is about the same concept except the dog is in your view and you can determine if the dog has the picture or not. If you give a correction (either attrition or collar correction) the dog has to understand what that correction is for. So if the dog takes the wrong line because he has the incorrect picture your correction is not substantiated. Dog has no clue what it is corrected for and now has 30 yards on the wrong line. If you watched the Farmer/Lardy symposium Lardy made a very important (to me at least) comment. Do not let the dog get into a lot of trouble and then apply correction.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I think one of the hardest things to learn in running blinds is when to blow your whistle. Early on I was being told I was way too late with an occasional you shouldn’t have blown your there whistle. Lol

I have never really trained 3 peats too much maybe on rare occasionally and early on in blind training. I know some people do, I just haven’t. 
I tend to train concepts on a rotation. Some problem pops up and that will get in the rotation a little more. For example yesterday was 3 marks and 3 blinds. The blinds were:
1- Backside gunner/angle into brush line past the holding blind where we threw the mark. There was also a holding blind set up against the brush line about 1/2 to the blind pole that we didn’t throw out of to give him something else to think about—-one small line correction
2- Through the AOF fall-nice didn’t slow down through AOF
3- Backside gunner, really tight to gunner and fighting a very small side hill—this cause more a bit of trouble for both dogs but we think for different reasons. For Flyer I think I need to get him more comfortable running really tight to the gunner. I think this because he was slightly flairing the line as he approached the holding blind and when I tried to correct his line he would over cast toward the holding blind and then we ping ponged a bit. We ran a tight line a few weeks ago and he had trouble with that one too. So I will put it on flat ground and try to isolate it and see what I have. 
The another dog we think was having trouble holding the line on the shallow angle side hill. She held her line pass the holding blinds but where she picked up the hill she pulled t0 the up hill side and when her handler tried to correct her she was casting down the or up the hill but didn’t want to hold the line across the hill. Steep side hills are in our blinds rotation and this is an experienced dog so the only thing we could figure is the dog knows how to hold a line on a steep grade but not on a shallow one. So that will get isolated and I bet we run another next week. I have gotten away from writing in a training log but I think I want to pick it back up. 



Claudia M said:


> If you give a correction (either attrition or collar correction) the dog has to understand what that correction is for. So if the dog takes the wrong line because he has the incorrect picture your correction is not substantiated. Dog has no clue what it is corrected for and now has 30 yards on the wrong line.


I’m not sure if I totally agree with the above. Boiled down this is how I think about blinds. They are about 3 basic things.The Go-leaving your side. The Stop-Whistle sits. Taking a Cast-changing directions. 
So Fido leaves your side and factors or suction pulls him off line. You whistle sit and because you have done the work from FF to FTP to double T and beyond so when you whistle this Always means sit. Now if Fido doesn’t sit no matter where you are in your training, whether you were way late in your whistle, or if there is a ton of wonderful scent to sniff, your blind has now become about getting that sit not picking up the blind.
Now here is the part that I don’t agree with Claudia, if Fido is sitting on a Whistle Sit , I have done the work from FF to beyond, when I cast Fido refuses the cast I don’t think Fido is confused. I have spent months making sure Fido knows what the cast means. I think Fido is choosing to give into suction or factors. Now I will agree when you let Fido run 30 yards toward the suction/factors you have made that cast way harder. Think of suction like a magnet and Fido as metal. The closer metal Fido get to Suction/Factor magnet the more force (attrition or correction) it will take to pull metal Fido away. Also we are not over whelming young Fido with monster blinds we are slowly building in complexity to our blinds. 
I probably didn’t express this as well as I would have liked, I’m positive I left some important points out and I’m quite sure the spelling mistakes are many but hopefully we’ll get some interesting training discussion going.
Maybe we could discuss how we would train to hold a great line on the blind that Claudia posted. To me that blind lives and dies on how Fido would carry the line across the dam and into the water. 
Hey, Stacy where are you?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. There are some great ideas that I would like to implement.



Riot and I have good days and some not so good days. Riot has had TT (twice) and swim by (reviewed again this fall). Riot is a thinker and seems to really need to understand why he is doing what he's doing. He tries to anticipate what I want him to do. I've been really trying to spend more time planning ahead what we need to do in training when it comes to blinds. In the past I used to walk around and say, oh this looks like a good place to set up a pile, look across the field and say cool. Plant my blind and run it. Now I'm spending more time looking at google maps for layouts of points and entries. Then adjusting for hills when I'm on site. 



I think the hardest part for me is down the shore. Lining him up and sending him sometimes means he goes out to sea and sometimes wants to run the shore. I don't think it's a swim by issue. I think it's hard for me to decide whether or when he should be in the water and how far out into the water. In the photo in my first post, that pond is a rounded shore. It seems like that type of blind is one I've run into a few times. A straight shore is easier to line up for, the rounded one is not. 



Now I'm planning ahead for next year. Which trials/tests we will run and what we need to train to do well. Blinds are definitely a place we need to improve on.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska,
Your original post generated some good discussion ... thank you!
Most notable to me is that it has allowed us to see that there are differing ideas about how to best reach the same goal. Also, that the way we run a blind in training is oftentimes not the way we would run a blind in a test or a trial.
FTGoldens

PS: As to your last next-to-last paragraph about Riot going out to sea vs. staying snug to the shoreline vs. taking a bit of land before getting in the water, I use sight blinds to teach the dog that sometimes he should stick close to the shore or sometimes take a bit of land before jumping into the water.


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