# Dog Aggression - Even with His Brother - very long post ...sorry



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I have no advice, but wanted to let you know that you've come to the right place. There are a wealth of people with a lot of experience and knowledge that can hopefully help you in this situation.

How old are your boys now? Are they neutered? How do they get along with strange people?


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you Melissa - I did finally get up the courage to post after being so impressed with the wisdom and expertise shown on this forum. Oakley and Seger are 6 years old. They are neutered and get along fine with strange people. Seger is a little "cautious" but Oakley is happy-go-lucky and eager to be anyone's friend.
Carol


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Carol, have you ever looked up Nothing in Life is Free (NILF)? Even if the pros on the forum give you other advise, having both dogs follow this program will help to establish you and your husband as the "in charge" folks. Google NILF and see what you think. I'm sorry you're having these issues with Seger; hopefully, Stephanie and others will steer you towards the best methods to resolve the aggression.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Carol,

It is exhausting - and heartbreaking to see the personality change when an agressive dog goes on alert. 

You will get a lot of advice - and some of it will be conflicting with what you know or read.

I have been in your shoes - although our dog - many years ago - a German Shepherd, was aggressive with both people and other dogs. You are right - you feel embarrassment and saddness for your dog. You think he should be able to lead a good life and run and play with other dogs - you think about it constantly - trying to figure out what the answer is. 

This is what I would do - in the situation you described.

First, Seger, needs to get out to smell, run, and let go of some of that negative energy. I would work with him alone. You are going to have to focus on him if you are out.

Everything you do with him, has to be positive - catch him being good. I would not have him meeting any other dogs - not yet - maybe never. Anyway, you do not want to give him any opportunity to practice bad behavior. 

I would start by taking him out late at night or very early in the morning - when there is no one around but the newspaper delivery truck and joggers.

Go for a good, one hour walk. Let him smell and fill his senses. You need to get yourself back - I imagine when you saw him pick up the pup and the neighbor said he would put a bullet in your dogs head - that was traumatic for you. You lost confidence in your dog and in your own abilities as an owner. Reframe the memory - I think your neighbor was a nut - just like the jogger who said he would punch my golden, Melody, in the head. She wanted to meet him - her tail was wagging. He wasn't interested. So perhaps your neighbor is a nutcase and maybe what you saw was prey drive . . . 

Yes - I have been there . . . . 

So, work on your relationship - as you are walking, talk to him, make it very positive, try to get him to make eye contact with you. He needs to understand that you solve the problems - he should look to you. With every walk, you will see him in a different way - you will feel more confident and more positive walking him. Energy is really important. You want him to get positive energy from you - and that you know what you are doing - you are his leader. Pat him on the shoulder when he does good. 

If you can find a place where he can get a good run in - that helps, too. But he has to be safe (and other dogs have to be safe) first and foremost.

If you see a dog - don't make a big deal over it - but don't bring him up to the dog. Instead, cross the street or go in the opposite direction. I dont' know if he is pulling you and stronger than you or what - but for now, what is important is he is getting out and it is positive. 

By doing this, you will get to really know him - and you will have a better sense of what situations trigger the aggression so you can watch for that. 

If by chance he comes in contact with another dog - stay cool - do not yell - pull him - or overreact. If you are unstable, he will handle it on his own - in the only way he knows - aggressively. Don't allow that to happen. Walk at a brisk pace and have him pay attention to you - yes- that other dog may be over there - but we are going to keep on moving and all hell is not going to break loose . . . 

At home, do not allow him to dominate your other dog - do not allow him to practice the negative behaviors. When you feel you can control both dogs, then I would start walking them together. 

I don't have an answer about other dogs - it is like, one dog could be a positive experience and then another dog could set him back with a fight. It is not worth risking. Right now, I wouldn't chance it - he may not get hurt - maybe the other dog wouldn't get hurt either - but I believe everytime they get an opportunity to fight, they seem to grow in their own dominance. 

You will know if or when he can meet another dog. I would do it in the presence of a trainer. I would do it with an owner and dog I trust. Maybe it starts by just walking on opossite sides of the street and waving to the other owner and being friendly and then praising him if he does not lunge or growl. 

I so hope your lives together get better. I am sure there are others who will have thoughts on this. I have no specialized training - just a lot of experience with a very aggressive Shepherd and now three Goldens who are the most joyful, balanced, and trustworthy pups. It really can be wonderful - I will be thinking of you : )


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## TwoGoldens (Feb 8, 2008)

Hi Carol,
I don't post here very much and have no real advice to offer. Just wanted to say I am so sorry you are still having this problem with Seger. I know how much you love your boys---I'm sure there are some here who can you give you great support and advice. I wish you all the best ---- good luck......

Nancy Shiloh & Spirit.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

Carol. I am so sorry you are having to deal with this and can definitely feel your pain and stress. I would contact another trainer. Make sure it is a positive based trainer. I really think you need some more one on one help from a good trainer. I hope some of the trainers on this site see your question and chime in on their suggestions. Good luck to you.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Finn's Fan said:


> Carol, have you ever looked up Nothing in Life is Free (NILF)? Even if the pros on the forum give you other advise, having both dogs follow this program will help to establish you and your husband as the "in charge" folks. Google NILF and see what you think. I'm sorry you're having these issues with Seger; hopefully, Stephanie and others will steer you towards the best methods to resolve the aggression.


I agree that NILIF may help immensely. He sounds like an insecure dog who thinks for some reason that nobody in the household is in charge, so he is trying to "control" every aspect in his life. If you start with NILIF, I think you will see a fairly steady improvement. He needs to understand that you have everything under control and NILIF will show him this. It is a fantastic management system when you have an anxious dog.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Another non trainer here. I like the Nothing in Life is Free program. By using the program it will give you the consistency of a plan to work with your dogs at home. I especially like all that Marty's Mom has said. Having a plan and working toward it will help give you markers on what your dog can handle. Remember this has been on going and over the total years of your dogs life. Do not rush any part of your program. If walking alone knowing the distances you can be from other dogs so that you set your dog up for success is very important. Understand that every time your dog gets wound up he gets an adrenaline rush which is a reward. So you have to make sure that you don't get to that threshold. I saw that you don't have any trainers near but I think this is something you really need to consider. While you are working on it yourself maybe you can save for a mini vacation where you can actually incorporate some training sessions with a positive trainer that works with in need dogs.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I really commend you for the thoughtful way youre looking at your situation, especially the way your fear of your dog acting aggressive gets transmitted and then actually adds to the problem. 

I went to a seminar a few weeks ago that suggested a novel approach, but I havent tried it out in real life yet. How about getting Seger focused on carrying a specific object for you- like a bumper, ball or frisbee? Spend some time working with him on the commands "hold", "Fetch","give" and "drop". I do this with a clicker; some people here use force fetch. Work on these commands only in calm, undistracted settings at first until he really gets the, then gradually 'proof" them around more and more difficult distractions. Then, if he starts to worry you with another dog or even Oakley, you can ask him for an alternative behavior related to his mouth. 

The strategy I have seen succeed is just a ton of attention training. Take an agility class for beginners; learn all the great attention games; be able to rely on him to sit and give you his attention.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Have you also tried using the network that is in South Porcupine? Here in South Florida, unlike your area, we have what seems to be a gazillion dog trainers, but I go to the ones that the "dog people" (breeders, performance owners, etc) go to because I know that these instructors have a certain sensibility that is in sync with my own.

I googled South Porcupine, and you're right, I don't see any trainers listed, but there are a couple of "dog people" mentioned--one person is Horace Webb, who is President of your local K9 Search and Rescue. Another is Dan McKay, who has owned Guide Dogs for the Blind, and is retiring his current guide dog. If I were you, it's worth a shot to call/email/write this gentlemen and see if they can recommend any nearby trainers for your issue--tell them you tried Bark Busters and it didn't work out. I'm not saying that these people are trainers, but it's been my experience that people who are used to working with dogs, and working with well-trained dogs, know who the good trainers are. Just a thought.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Neutered male golden who's behavior started around the age of two...You need to rule out the thyroid if you haven't already. Lots of information on here in regards to hypothyroidism, treatment, etc. Worth mentioning is that "normal" and more particularly "low normal" is not optimal for goldens. With supplementation you should be aiming for the upper range of normal. I'd start there first. NILF is never a bad thing to do in tandem - but test both of them for thyroid values...

Erica


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Oakley&Segers Mom*

Oakley&Segers Mom

I want to commend you for asking for help-it is NEVER TOO late and I am sure there is help for your two boys.

This many be too simplistic, but did you mention whether your dogs are neutered or not. if not, I would definitely talk to the vet about neutering them both. Also, have thyroids and health checked.
People on here have lots of experience and hope to share!


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I am so sorry you're going through this and certainly feel for you. I also have 2 neutered male puppies (1 year and 10.5 months) who have fought and will fight. Having said that, they fights are very few and far between but I never know what is going to set them off. The other day they got into a fight in the house and I have no idea what prompted it. All I know is that when trying to separate them, my one puppy redirected his aggression and bit me on the arm leaving me with a nice baseball sized bruise along with a toothmark!!! What is frustrating is that both dogs are so loving and docile with anyone else and other dogs and, for the most part, each other. I have really tried to be cognizant of little things that might set them off and as soon as I notice something, I immediately redirect their attention to something else. It seems to be my 1 year old that is the instigator so I really watch his body language closely. I used to notice that when I would scold him for something (ie. jumping on the baby gate), he would turn around and "stare" at Lincoln like it was his fault he was being scolded. I would just simply say "no" in a firm voice and redirect him. I must admit it has worked as he hasn't given his brother the "look" for some time now. I just knew I needed to get a handle on this now while they were young to try to prevent things from escalating and getting worse as they got older.

I certainly hope some of the trainers on the forum can help you deal with Seger's aggression problems. I was a little embarrassed to ask for help but had I not, I am sure I would have considered rehoming one of my puppies and I just don't believe in that. I have received alot of good advice from the professionals on here and it has made my life much easier!!!

Good luck!!!!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you everyone for the supportive comments and suggestions. The fact that you have taken the time to provide me with detailed responses is really appreciated.

I willl certainly look into NILF - all of our kids are gone from home so it might now be an easier task for hubby and I to be consistent once we develop a plan.

I strongly agree that Seger seems to feel that he has to be in charge - so evidently we have not fulfilled that role to a degree that he feels comfortable. Some of the suggestions here seem that they will help us in that regard. Thanks for that. I know one of the mistakes we made with Oakley and Seger was doing too much together and not giving them enough "alone" time. I will definitely start spending more one-on-one time with him minus Oakley! 

Seger loves to please us - one of his favorites is for me to hide his tennis ball in one room of the house and then bring him in to "find it"! It seems to turn a switch on in him and he seems so engaged and happy doing it. He also loves fetch and retrieve so perhaps I can do more to keep him busy. 

With regards to Seger's thyroid levels, we just spoke with the vet about that at Christmas time and will be taking him in to be tested. He does seem to have a number of symptoms of hypothroidism. 

Your responses have given me a place to start. Any other suggestions gratefully accepted....I am hoping I can turn this around. Besides us being happier I am sure Seger would feel better if he were able to relax and enjoy life.

Carol


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