# Help. In search of "English" Breeder. Will travel.



## Hilabeans (Feb 27, 2018)

So sorry for the loss of your sweet pup.
I can't help with the info much, I can only tell you my Teddy is related to some of the former dogs from Morning Valley (on both his dam and sire): Pedigree: Rousey's Golden Piper
Pedigree: Int. CH & National CH Earl Robert of the Morning Valley
We may be biased, but we think Ted is pretty amazing!
I'm sure some of the experienced members here can help you with your search, best of luck!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I only had time to look at Ingold.
I'm disappointed that anyone would deliberately chance creating an ICT affected puppy. Also the price is boggling to me- they do nothing w these dogs but breed them... the dogs they have listed as CH are not AKC CH and it is standard to specify if you are going to call CH any other registry... so U-CH is a UKC CH, etc. These dogs are NOT even AkC ptd much less champions (and if one has spent the time and money to make a champion, one is bothered by those who mislead others about what they have)....


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I only had time to look at Ingold.
I'm disappointed that anyone would deliberately chance creating an ICT affected puppy by breeding two carriers. Also the price is boggling to me- they do nothing w these dogs but breed them... the dogs they have listed as CH are not AKC CH and it is standard to specify if you are going to call CH any other registry... so U-CH is a UKC CH, etc. These dogs are NOT even AkC ptd much less champions (and if one has spent the time and money to make a champion, one is bothered by those who mislead others about what they have)....
Also, they do not adhere to the Code of Ethics. Fabio had hips/elbows done at 1 year old. There is decent evidence that what it was then is not necessarily what they are at 2 years of age.


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> I only had time to look at Ingold.
> I'm disappointed that anyone would deliberately chance creating an ICT affected puppy by breeding two carriers. Also the price is boggling to me- they do nothing w these dogs but breed them... the dogs they have listed as CH are not AKC CH and it is standard to specify if you are going to call CH any other registry... so U-CH is a UKC CH, etc. These dogs are NOT even AkC ptd much less champions (and if one has spent the time and money to make a champion, one is bothered by those who mislead others about what they have)....
> Also, they do not adhere to the Code of Ethics. Fabio had hips/elbows done at 1 year old. There is decent evidence that what it was then is not necessarily what they are at 2 years of age.


Wow, see this is why I asked. Thanks so much for your knowledge sharing.


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

Thank you. I have heard several positive things about Morning Valley.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

If you are looking specifically for an "english" type golden, definitely be weary of any breeder or website that uses the terms "english cream" to advertise puppies, thats the first red flag. If you are willing to travel anywhere, I would check out:

Stoneledge Goldens (MA)

Eastshore Goldens (NH) 

My Way Golden Retrievers (CT)

(these puppies are all going to be in the $2000 - $2500 ball park)

All of them breed English lines, yet still compete in conformation and are (from what I know and only MY own experiences with them) ethical and reputable. Another positive is that everything you need to know is right on their websites.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

If your top priority is a happy, healthy, carefully bred Golden Retriever from a good breeder, the simplest thing to do is take the color preference off the search. It will open up a whole world of choices to you. 

Many breeders may have a personal preference for a shade of gold, but it simply doesn't come into the top criteria for breeding decisions when they are planning a litter. Good breeders have so many decisions to make when choosing a sire, and by the time they plan for health clearances, temperament, structure and some other qualities such as biddable or having strong retrieving instincts or 'working ability' the coat color will typically come in dead last.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You might want to look up Mattiaci? 

She does not breed for color or some bizarre made up breed standard created by fad breeders. Her dogs are bred for AKC conformation. However, she has more European lines + a very typey look in what she breeds. 

She's in Montana.

She's also a member here on GRF.


Color, btw... is irrelevant. Funny story from this past weekend - I showed my 2 boys at a local show. Had somebody walk up to visit with the dogs where I had put them in their crate at ringside. When I pulled the dogs out to let her pet and get love from them, she was amazed at how "light" they were, especially my pup. And she kept telling me about how she always thought her dog was very light. 

I did a double take look at my guys who are medium gold. Pup is very blond and lighter than his dad right now, but he absolutely is going to be the same color when he's all grown up.

If you were asking me what I like about my dogs or what I consider to be their best points - athleticism, balance, correct coats, trainability, and sweet temperaments. These are things people should be breeding for.


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

Thank you, helpful comment. I think we are starting to lean away from the lighter color for the reasons you stated.


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## Golden9 (Jun 13, 2016)

You could try: mtnviewgoldens .com MountainView Golden Retrievers.
They have White European Goldens and a few American Goldens with OFA clearances, AKC registered. 
The White European Goldens are shipped in from Serbia, etc. I don't know how well socialized or well trained the breeder Goldens are.
The family live in a huge home on a big farm but all the Golden puppies are in kennels in huge barns.
The breeders say all the Goldens are let out of the kennels twice a day to run on the farm offleash, but with so many Goldens, that would take all day to let out the boys, let out the girls,
let out the mamas with pups, etc.
I would ask if they have any home raised golden puppies.
The buyers of some of the pups, said they are very healthy pups, but being kennel raised, the pups needed to learn to live in a house, and are way
behind, compared to home raised golden pups. Said some of the pups were very panicky, so a lot of confidence training needed due to living
in a kennel for too long. But typical for kennel raised pups, a lot of catch up training.
Very good looking European Goldens. Don't know about the temperament, are they sweet easy going confident goldens, that I don't know.
Do your own research, and call them and ask lots of questions: mtnviewgoldens .com*

.
*


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Rule of thumb.... 

When you look at a website for a breeder and do not find any registration names anywhere .... odds are very likely that they are trying to prevent people from looking the pedigrees and clearances up on their own. IE doing their own research.

The breeder referred above... they do not make any claims of having full clearances. I would wager there are none. 

Looking at the dogs - they are pretty much backyard bred fare. They are not going anywhere near any show ring. These are filthy dogs (yeast stains, grass stains, etc) who probably have not been groomed in a very long time and show signs of tangled and matted coats. And those who have been "groomed" - have just had the coats clipped off. It's really very sad and gross to look at. 

Structure and stuff like that - would not go into since none of the dogs appear to have been bred for qualities like that.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

If you are serious about buying a golden abroad then why don't you visit Crufts dog show and look at the UK and European goldens, see if you like them, then do some research on the kennels you like . You will need to be prepared to wait to get the right puppy. There will be a range of colours there and about 500 goldens to look at. Annef


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

Geez, that kind of sounds like a bit of a puppy mill...


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

Megora said:


> Rule of thumb....
> 
> When you look at a website for a breeder and do not find any registration names anywhere .... odds are very likely that they are trying to prevent people from looking the pedigrees and clearances up on their own. IE doing their own research.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I am not going anywhere near a breeder who cages dogs and lets them out only to run a few times a day. No way.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

placheka said:


> Geez, that kind of sounds like a bit of a puppy mill...



Crufts? It's a dog show. https://www.crufts.org.uk/


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Sweet Girl said:


> Crufts? It's a dog show. https://www.crufts.org.uk/


I think the OP was referring to the mtn view Goldens breeder.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

ArchersMom said:


> I think the OP was referring to the mtn view Goldens breeder.


Yeah, yikes...I think she was referring to that website also. I would steer clear of them. Red flags everywhere.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I just completed a search for my next dog where my top criteria was longevity (I lost both of my last two Goldens to cancer at 11). FWIW, here is some food for thought...

First, most important note, all the following applies only to _reputable _breeders (those that follow the GRCA Code of Ethics criteria). Any breeder who didn't was immediately off my list.

1) Goldens have a high rate of cancer. Period. I believe the current statistic is somewhere in the range of 66% of all goldens will either be affected or die of it. There are things you can do to increase your chances of getting that 1-in-3+ dog that dies of old age, but there is SO much that is out of your control (environmental toxins, unknown causes, etc.), there are certainly NO guarantees. If you love and want a Golden, losing them to cancer will always be a risk, and you need to be OK with that. 

2) Make use of *K9Data.com* to research the longevity of dogs bred by any breeder you are considering (if you don't know how to do this let us know and we'll walk you through it). I personally chose to eliminate any breeder who did not have a majority of at least her breeding stock listed on K9Data, not because I think it's a necessarily a prerequisite for a good breeder, but because I think most reputable breeders _do _use it and I wanted to use it as a tool in my research. Keep in mind that the info on K9Data is self-reported and many breeders do not enter death dates or cause of death, so take what you see there with a grain of salt. That said, if I looked at longevity information in the pedigree (opened up to five generations and including siblings) and saw mostly age at death in the 9-11 year range, I crossed that breeder off my list. If I found one where a majority of the dogs made it past 11, then I looked deeper, primarily looking at cause of death, especially of any dogs who died younger than 12, looking for any patterns for the cancers that are suspected to be heritable (some cancers are considered to be more likely caused by environmental factors). If I saw a cancer I was particularly concerned about showing up more than once, or really close to this breeding (grandparent, possibly great grandparent) then that breeding dropped way down on my "maybe" list. REMINDER - Longevity was a top priority for me. There are many excellent breeders who have prioritized other, perfectly legitimate goals, over longevity. Only you can decide what YOU want to prioritize.

3) You can also use K9Data to research the coefficient of inbreeding (COI), as well as what dogs contributed "heavily" to the pedigree (heavily being a relative term - BIG difference between a dog that contributed 0.02% of the genes and one that contributed 22% of the genes!). In my personal search, I gave extra points to a breeding that would result in a COI that was as low as possible, and certainly lower than the breed average, BUT I did not eliminate breedings with a higher COI if the contributing dogs (and their siblings and descendants) were particularly long lived.

4) Despite the hype, English/European goldens do not NECESSARILY live longer or have lower cancer rates. That said, in my research I did find more dogs with that background who had the longevity I was looking for, but they were also often in breeding programs where healthy, long-lived "European" dogs were being bred to healthy, long-lived American dogs. As you've already been warned, COLOR of golden has absolutely no bearing on longevity and having that as a criteria will only unnecessarily reduce the number of breeders/breedings you can consider.

5) You can do ALL this research, find a breeder and a breeding that ticks all the boxes, and bring home a puppy with all the genetic potential to live a long and healthy life... but if you don't then do everything you can to keep it that way, you are still opening the door to early death due to environmental factors. Please research the topics of over-vaccination, quality diet, toxins in your yard and home, late spay/neuter, topical pesticides, etc., etc., so you are sure to do your part in the 13+ years you hope to have this dog.

Best of luck in your search!


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## Brodys Rockies (Jan 8, 2019)

*athleticism, balance, correct coats, trainability, sweet temperaments.*



Megora said:


> If you were asking me what I like about my dogs or what I consider to be their best points - athleticism, balance, correct coats, trainability, and sweet temperaments. These are things people should be breeding for.


I have had only one Golden so far, and the gentle giant I had was one of the most amazing dogs anyone could have ever wanted. Before getting River, our late Golden Retriever, we had one mix breed followed by two Beagles. In all, we have had 4 dogs, ages...all were puppies until they crossed over the rainbow bridge. 

From the experiences of having had four dogs over the past 42 years, each dog was different in subtle ways, but they were all affectionate, gentle, sweet tempered, trainable, athletic from a playful perspective, i.e., loved to fetch, play tug of war, hide and seek, among other fun tricks, etc. I should point out that were never looking for a show dog, or a dog to compete in various levels of dog competitions. What we always wanted was a healthy loving family pet. 

Sadly, Rocky, the mix breed terrier we had developed hip dysplasia at age 7, so we had to have him put down. Barney the Beagle lived until he was 16, and Bessie, our second Beagle, lived until she was 12. River, our Golden, lived for nearly 11 years before he developed cancer and likewise, had to be put down. With the exception of Rocky, I feel all of our dogs lived full lives within and even beyond the life expectancy range of the breed. 

As you mentioned earlier in your response, the color is irrelevant. I agree! I think it's merely a matter of preference, but color has nothing to do with a Golden's disposition...I also realize health is another totally different issue I'll save for another post, but I do have several questions about this as well...

*So here is my question*...How much of the temperament, trainability, and athleticism is tied to the breeding line of the Sire and Dam? Or, are these attributes more tied to how the dog is raised, trained and loved by a caring family? To the extreme, we all have seen and read those horrible sad stories about how dogs brought out of fighting rings, or bait dogs changed into loving pets once put in a loving caring environment. I'm not suggesting that in all cases this has worked, but there are positive examples of this working with positive results.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> So here is my question...How much of the temperament, trainability, and athleticism is tied to the breeding line of the Sire and Dam? Or, are these attributes more tied to how the dog is raised, trained and loved by a caring family?


Temperament is both nature and nurture.

Trainability is both nature and nurture.

Athleticism is completely nature. 

With my pup, I own the dad and watched the mom (owned by a friend) grow up. I see a lot of the mom's temperament in my little guy. He's more bubbly, sweet, and talkative. The dad is a very serious, quiet, and sometimes even solemn little guy - and very sweet. 

Both parents - my dog and the mom - are very athletic and sound. This is talking about effortless springing straight over obstacles without any effort or clumsiness. These are also dogs that have effortless movement and seem to fly when moving. <= It's very early yet to see if soundness was inherited, but the athleticism is absolutely there with my puppy. You're talking a pup that has catlike agility when it comes to jumping up on things or spring over any obstacles in his way. 

Trainability - it's an interesting thing to explain, because my gut feeling is depending on the tools you use - any dog can be trained. But with these dogs, trainability primarily is training anything and everything to a puppy without too much effort. In my case, I have a 7 month old who is about ready to compete in obedience, including off leash work. Will I rush him out there right now? NO. We are going to wait until he's close to 2. But it's nice knowing that I could if I wanted to. This is a pup who is already doing not just novice level work in obedience, but right when he was 10 weeks old was already doing some open and utility obedience things. This is trainability. A lot of it comes from his dad who is problem solving smart. 

Trainability is eagerness/desire to please, that's pup avidly working on figuring out what he's supposed to do in training in the fewest reps possible, and it's lightbulbs going and staying on for the rest of the dog's life. 

With some dogs whose trainability isn't quite there - you get people who struggle to maintain the dog's focus even with food right in front of the dog's nose and you have dogs who are all over the place and forgetting what they are doing most of the time.


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

Sweet Girl said:


> Crufts? It's a dog show. https://www.crufts.org.uk/


Yes I was referencing the Mountain View breeder. 

I know what Crufts is. LOL!


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

I just got off the phone with an "English Creme" Breeder and I was very disappointed. 

The breeder charges $4000 for a pup. So for $4000 I absolutely expect someone to know what they are talking about and their policies. 

I asked if the Dam/Sire were registered AKC/CKC/UKC and the answer I got was.... "well this dog is a champion in this country and this country, etc." My registration question was never answered.

Also I asked about a health "guarantee". I understand that nature and illness happens. But it seem reputable breeders have 2-3 year guarantees. I have even come across one breeder who stated they would replace your pup if the dog died of cancer before the age of 10. 

The answer I got from this breeder was that they couldn't recall off the top of their head what their health guarantee was. Thinks maybe it' 1 year and they extend that guarantee if you follow certain guidelines with the puppy like diet, vaccinations etc. 

How do you not know? If you take breeding serious and this is your passion, how do you not know.... you are trying to sell someone a $4000 dog and you cant properly answer questions over the phone. 

I was so disappointed. Price does not equal quality...


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## LunaDC (Jan 25, 2019)

If you're still researching "english cream" breeders, I would also look at McGreger's Goldens in Northern Mississippi. I remember looking at countless breeders' websites and feeling a bit overwhelmed for a while. The McGreger's Goldens website isn't very polished, so I wasn't too optimistic originally, but when I called and spoke with Jeff and 'Sunshine' they were able to answer all of my questions and made it clear that I was welcome to come up to their property to see what the facilities looked like and meet the Sire and Dam of the upcoming litter I was interested in.

I can confirm from my experience with this breeder that at the very least, their dogs "Lucy and "Ice" are AKC registered because I was able to register my puppy as soon as I picked her up. I've had her for about a year and a half now and she has been fantastic so far. Very obedient, very social with people and other dogs, rarely barks, very athletic.

All that said, I'm admittedly going to be a little biased since that's where my dog came from. I hope this helps a little bit.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Luna DC, if you could post your cute puppy's sire and dam registered name, that would be helpful. The site is quite the mess, and they do not use more than call names there, which is usually the method for breeders who don't want buyers to be able to verify clearances. As well, I don't see likely dogs on k9data belonging to them.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*McGreger’s Goldens*

McGreger's is not a reputable breeder. None of the dogs I have been able to track down have any health testing. 

McGreger’s I love Lucy - no health certifications 
McGreger’s Slick as ice - no health certifications
McGreger’s Chipper - no health certifications
McGreger’s Jacks are wild - no health certifications
McGreger’s Maggie - no health certifications
McGreger’s Shinning Ruby - no health certifications
McGreger’s Katie - no health certifications
McGreger’s Lily of the valley - no health certifications

It is kind of a double standard because they would require a puppy buyer to use OFA to document hip Dsyplasia but they can’t be bothered to do the testing with OFA on the parents that would allow them to minimize the risk of health issues. Then of course there is the shady practice of tying their guarantee to NuVet supplements which gives them a kickback for every purchase. If a breeder is offer a guarantee because they believe in their dogs are healthy, there is no reason to require a pet buyer to use a product designed to earn the breeder additional income for the next 24 month. Also, it sounds like you have to give the puppy back which very few people would do. The other thing is the replacement puppy is supposed to be from an identical breeding if possible. Considering hip Dsyplasia and eye issues have a hereditary component, why would anyone want to replace a dysplastic puppy with another high risk puppy from the parents that have already produced it? 

They are also way overpriced for the health risky puppies they are offering. Puppies from parents with no health certifications in that area are in the 500-800 range. These puppies are $1300. You could probably find puppies from fully health tested parent for $1800 in that area.

No matter which way you slice it, this is a breeder that I could not recommend to anyone. Too overpriced for those willing to shoulder health risks in order to find a cheap initial purchase price. Too much risk and lack of caring about health to be a reputable breeder.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

placheka said:


> I just got off the phone with an "English Creme" Breeder and I was very disappointed.
> 
> The breeder charges $4000 for a pup. So for $4000 I absolutely expect someone to know what they are talking about and their policies.



If you're talking to a breeder who uses the term "English Creme" to describe their dogs, then disappointment is inevitable. No reputable breeder would use that term. And $4,000 ...!! That is _way _above (almost double) the price you should expect to pay for a pup from generations of health-tested, titled dogs. I'm pretty sure this isn't the case for the dogs from this particular breeder.



If you want a healthy pup from a good breeder, you're going about it the wrong way. Forget about colour for now: it's the least important of all the criteria. Look around for good, reputable breeders first, and then, it you really must have a particular colour of dog, make your final choice based on that. But I'll reiterate what other posters have said, namely that you should be looking for other, more important things first, and colour last of all. If you focus your search on pale-coloured dogs, you're going to end up paying a _lot _of money needlessly.


Best of luck, hope you find your perfect pup!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

If you want a "English" dog, go to England and get one. It's that simple.


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## placheka (Jan 22, 2019)

Oh what a pretty girl you have. Very much enjoyed the pictures.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

ArchersMom said:


> I think the OP was referring to the mtn view Goldens breeder.





placheka said:


> Yes I was referencing the Mountain View breeder.
> 
> I know what Crufts is. LOL!



Sorry guys! Thanks for clarity! It was me who was clearly confused! :grin2:


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

OP you have been given some good information from some really great breeders. Listen or not, it's your decision.

So guess the real question is what is the most important thing for you... health or color? There just aren't to many doing both in the US. If color is at the top of your list then pick a breeder that is reasonably priced and get insurance. 

Bottom line here is pay for quality in the beginning or pay for health later. And as many have said, fixing bad hips or elbows is really expensive and painful for the dog...


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## gjsturge49 (Jan 25, 2019)

We have an 18 week old male from Summer Brook and we could not be happier with the entire experience


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

There have been "english type" breeders mentioned on this thread that would happily pick up the phone to tell you everything you need to know about their breeding programs and questions you may have, in addition to their websites (which has all of the information it seems you are hoping to find). If you are willing to travel anywhere, I would start there before going to Europe. 

As others have said, a truly reputable, ethical breeder will _*never*_ use the term "english cream/creme"


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## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

If you are willing to travel, give Joanne Cava at Tanglewood Goldens a call. She does have a website if you want a bit of info ahead of time. Her kennel is just south of Charlotte, NC. Expect to be on a wait list...


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

placheka said:


> I just got off the phone with an "English Creme" Breeder and I was very disappointed.
> 
> The breeder charges $4000 for a pup. So for $4000 I absolutely expect someone to know what they are talking about and their policies.
> 
> ...



I know its been said already but feel the need to reiterate to AVOID any breeder advertising their pups based on color. It is a marketing scheme. You can find reputable breeders who are breeding for the betterment of the breed, longevity, etc and then look to see if their goldens are what you are looking for regarding color. I have been in search of a breeder over the past several months and have come across none that offer a guarantee of 10 years. That too is a marketing scheme. Its impossible to guarantee a life to live 10 years. Absurd. You will find valuable info here on this forum and I am sure you will discover a list of reputable breeders. Good luck.


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## Laura Way (May 25, 2009)

You received some really great information. First off if looking for a Golden with English lines or type you want to remove from your search "White, Creme, Rare,. Goldens are goldens no matter their color, or pedigree. All in the USA should be following the code of ethic from our parent club which is Golden Retrievers Club of American. This is a good place to learn about the breed, what breeders should be doing when considering breeding, what clearances should be done and at what age, what age said bitch and sire should be, temperament and more. 

If a web site doesn't have registered names run. You should be able to research pedigrees and clearances easily. Use K9data and OFA. A breeder should be proud to list the registered names of the dogs. They should not be hiding them. 

Each country has a parent club and will go into listing how to find an ethical breeder or what to look for. They will also discuss breed standards and clearances too. So if you choose to travel say Canada for a breeder/and puppy you will know how to recognize an ethical breeder. 

Watch for those importing from Siberia, Russia many are importing and not doing clearances or no clearances behind them, breeding underage ect. Be willing to wait for the right breeder to have a litter/s. An ethical breeder is worth their weight in gold in most cases. 

If you are looking for an ethical breeder with English lines, and or type some you may want to look at is Overlook in CT, Stoneledge in MA, Tanglewood in NC, Goldglen in Alaska, Kyon in Canada, Eastshore in NH, Cedars in WI, Coopermoon in Canada, Jaad in Canada, Blackpool in Canada and there are still more but at least with these they are super to start with. They will at least help you understand pedigrees, clearances, and more. 

Lines or dogs kennel names you would like to see through out or in the pedigrees are names like Kyon, Trowsnest, Tanglewood, Dewmist, Hydene, Riztilyn, Ganwales, and many, many others. 

Always check for clearances, ask registered names, why are they breeding said pair, what are they hoping to produce. Ask to have them send you links to data bases such as OFA, K9data, use the K9data to check COI's look at the pedigrees in all directions too. How and where they raise their litters. If a breeder is willing to sell you a dog with full registration without them mentoring you or you having a couple mentors this is a red flag too. Cost you should expect is between $2000-$3000 depending on longevity in the lines, tittles, parts of the country is higher do to cost of vet, clearances, shipping semen and more. But anyone asking over $3000 is crazy! 

Good luck on your journey.


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