# Goldador Breeder in/near Colorado?



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Everyone here loves them all but not sure what you mean by reputable breeder. NO reputable breeder is going to mix a lab & golden (or any other breeds)! Check at the rescues or your local kill shelter. Reputable breeders breed pure bred dogs, they do all the clearances suggested by the breed club. So save a life


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

There's a lot of lab mixes in animal shelters.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

FWIW- a more correct way to state what you are looking for is Golden X Labrador cross. "Goldador" is like any other mixed breed made up name. Never gonna be a breed... never gonna find an ethical breeder who makes these on purpose.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Why not just get a purebred lab, or a purebred golden???

I know that golden/lab crosses are very popular in certain service dog organizations. Perhaps you could reach out to a few organizations and see if they have any type of adoption programs for dogs who don't don't meet the criteria for service dog work.


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## afsst (Feb 24, 2019)

*I appreciate your concern*

Your beloved golden retriever originated in the early 19th century, developed after a long line of breeding from the Newfoundland, Tweed water spaniels and the Irish setter. AKC didn't recognize the golden retriever until 1925. So if social media was around prior to 1925, you'd probably all be labeled heretics for owning a mutt...go back in a time machine "puddles everywhere" and listen to the dog owners in the early 1900's: "No reputable breeder will mix a water spaniel and Irish Setter!"

The "Goldador," It is a purposeful breed that combines the best characteristics of the Golden Retriever and the Labrador Retriever. Who knows, when the Goldador becomes more popular, maybe AKC will recognize the breed.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

afsst said:


> Your beloved golden retriever originated in the early 19th century, developed after a long line of breeding from the Newfoundland, Tweed water spaniels and the Irish setter. AKC didn't recognize the golden retriever until 1925. So if social media was around prior to 1925, you'd probably all be labeled heretics for owning a mutt...go back in a time machine "puddles everywhere" and listen to the dog owners in the early 1900's: "No reputable breeder will mix a water spaniel and Irish Setter!"
> 
> The "Goldador," It is a purposeful breed that combines the best characteristics of the Golden Retriever and the Labrador Retriever. Who knows, when the Goldador becomes more popular, maybe AKC will recognize the breed.


I have several friends who had lab/golden crosses and loved them. They were amazing dogs. Two of these dogs came from backyard breeders who's female lab and male golden were intact and had a litter of puppies. No health testing, no thought put behind it.

Family friends bought two of these puppies. One looked like a golden, one looked like a lab, both were great dogs, no one would deny that this cross can produce great dogs. The point that forum members are trying to make is that currently, *right now*, as it stands, this is not a recognized breed. It is a mix. It will be difficult for you to find a breeder who abides by the code of ethics for BOTH breeds when they produce puppies. AKA a reputable breeder.

On the other hand, I have a friend who has two lab/golden crosses, a male and a female. They were adopted through a service dog organization after they flunked out of the program. The male was too energetic, the female was too anxious to perform the service work they were in training for. They were each adopted at about 5-6 months, so definitely still a puppy. It would be your safest bet, if you are looking for this mix, to reach out to an organization like this. That way you can stack your odds at getting a dog who was bred with health, temperament and longevity in mind. 


Attached are photos of the backyard bred dogs. Same parents. Mom lab, dad golden.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

afsst said:


> Your beloved golden retriever originated in the early 19th century, developed after a long line of breeding from the Newfoundland, Tweed water spaniels and the Irish setter. AKC didn't recognize the golden retriever until 1925. So if social media was around prior to 1925, you'd probably all be labeled heretics for owning a mutt...go back in a time machine "puddles everywhere" and listen to the dog owners in the early 1900's: "No reputable breeder will mix a water spaniel and Irish Setter!"
> 
> The "Goldador," It is a purposeful breed that combines the best characteristics of the Golden Retriever and the Labrador Retriever. Who knows, when the Goldador becomes more popular, maybe AKC will recognize the breed.


The breed IS beloved. And no breed popped onto the earth without breeding selectively.. 
however, the key word is 'selective' in that sentence. 
Tweedmouth had a plan, he kept records, he culled when needed, and he was able to develop a breed. The "Gold"mixers, they do none of that, they are just making money. AKC will never register this mix.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> The "Goldador," It is a purposeful breed that combines the best characteristics of the Golden Retriever and the Labrador Retriever. .


The best characteristics of a golden retriever - happens in a well-bred golden retriever. You will not find it in a mutt. You will find nice dogs in mutts, but it's not the same thing as having a well bred dog.

A well bred dog is - like I told my puppy's breeder the other day... it's everything you expect to find in the breed. My puppy is everything a golden retriever should be. This doesn't happen just by breeding a purebred dog to a purebred dog. There are really crappy purebred dogs out there - with terrible temperaments, poor structure, ugly as sin (LOL) and so on. 

Even with a good breeder... you still have them searching litter after litter for that top dog and they are not 100% good at finding the puzzle pieces for breeding good quality dogs litter after litter. Every litter they produce might end up being mediocre quality. And these are people who keep choosing puppies with the biggest heads or best toplines or whatever other thing they are searching for in what they breed - and I swear by the time the dogs are 2-3 years old, they fall apart for one reason or another. One breeder I know (and have huge respect for!) has placed a lot of dogs after a while when they do not turn out the way she hopes - and it's not anything to do with clearances... boys especially. I've seen xrays posted with her dogs and I swear that's where she has consistency. But she's not just breeding dogs because they have clearances.

Flipside of that - I train with somebody who is a golden retriever breeder. She actually has talked about retiring, but because she's one of very few obedience type breeders who breed for looks in addition to working drive, there's a lot of people who won't let her retire. She shared that when she started out, she raised at least 5 golden bitches who failed clearances and could not be bred. It took a long time before she solved her hip and elbow problems. In fact with some people and/or reasons why they keep breeding certain lines with other problems is because those lines have been so consistent at producing clearances. It's very hard for people to let that go while introducing something else in what they breed. Especially if breeding to something else means unknowns as far as temperament and working drive. 

Bad breeders out there - and the ones who are supplying all the "purebred" dogs for these designer mutts... they are not doing any of that selective breeding! You are not even talking clearances. You are talking about people breeding dogs who are very very poor quality and should not be bred. That's what's behind these mutts out there. And you can't even rely on people being selective just looking at the dogs because a lot of people out there do not have good eyes for structure or anything. 

People who have a preference for more labby type dogs - may need to look into the labrador retriever breed better. They have major splits and divisions in the breed. And sometimes when you have somebody who wants a dog that has more golden retriever type things about it, they are looking for something more like a show lab.

There's a lab girlie who was in all of the same puppy, regular, and competition classes as my Jacks and she's still thriving very well and going for her utility title (top obedience title). Show line girl - and this means she's a lot more compact and mellow than field lines. 

Field lines - some of them - are huge dogs. And even more concerning with the breed is other divisions exist, including dogs who are backyard bred and frequently end up in shelters because they are either aggressive or simply keep going stray on their owners. 

Aggression is a big problem with labs - because they are very widely bred. And you have some very bad characters out there who are breeding labs just because they are intact. Or the dogs run around and get pregnant with mystery mixes (in some cases you don't know whether or not there is something else in there, and if they look purebred - that's what they are pitched as by breeders who have no reason to worry about papers or pedigrees. 

The types of dogs referenced above as far as being part of service dog breeding programs, these are nicely bred dogs. They have to be. There's a lot of money put into training them for people with needs. They have to have clearances. They have to have sound temperaments. Any sign of shyness, fearfulness, etc... and they will flunk out of the programs. 

I have another friend with show lines who is primarily breeding for service dog organizations. And these are not producing mixed breed dogs. She is breeding and producing purebred labs for service dog organizations. And she's elderly with knee and back problems herself, so that tells you a lot about how mellow and gentle her dogs are. 

Also there seems to be a lot of posts lately with more than one person repeating lines about Tweedmouth producing the golden retriever breed. 

First, Tweedmouth was not here in the US and was not breeding dogs for AKC. And he lived in a different time when things were done while establishing breeds.... which was OK at the time, but not today! Especially not today while we have people who jump through hoops to put a logo on every kind of mutt imagined under the sun. 

People today, especially young and impulsive wired people, do not actually understand what all needs to be done before a breed is recognized as a purebred breed. 

It's not a process that relies on entrepreneurs coming up with a catchy name and do a reasonably good job at producing good looking mutts for sale. Which by the way works on people who do not know any better. You would be surprised at how many people have no clue what the difference is between a golden retriever and any other breed. A lot of people today grew up without owning an AKC breed book. This despite being longtime dog owners. What this means is you have a lot of people who will look at a dog and see a dog, but they don't know anything about the breeds or what makes one breed different from the next. That's visual and knowing anything about breed purpose, breed traits, breed standards.

Right now, there's a lot of rescue groups out there who discovered that people are more likely to adopt a mixed breed if you give it a catch breed name and again it works very well on people who balk about buying a dog from a rescue who is a poodle mix... but they will fight it out to purchase a rescue dog who is a labradoodle. Labradoodles are poodle mixes - but the marketing works very well on people. 

Breeders looking to produce puppies for sale and up market them (as opposed to what they themselves paid for the parents) - they are all over that same marketing scheme. It allows people to produce any kind of mutt, they don't have to be pretty, but they can charge more because people think they are more valuable - based on marketing. 



> Who knows, when the Goldador becomes more popular, maybe AKC will recognize the breed


This is not how AKC works when letting in new breeds. They don't care about popularity of the breed. What matters is careful breeding and careful bookkeeping. It takes many generations of dogs breeding true before they are recognized as a breed. 

Personally speaking - because there is so much chaos right now with the ignorant, impulsive, and ambitious either jumping into breeding dogs as a quick and easy way to make money or purchasing dogs that are thought to be valuable.... AKC needs to support the breed clubs and do something to educate dog owners out there who are fueling the terrible things which those breeders are doing. You have very reckless and careless breeding being done and advocated. There's no sense or reason behind some of the breeding other than somebody has an intact dog and will put that dog with a likewise intact dog, because whatever puppies they spawn will sell well.


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## afsst (Feb 24, 2019)

Great idea! Thanks for the thoughtful reply


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thought I'd share for fun... 

The attached shows actual breeds which currently do not have full registration with AKC. I believe the way it works is if you own one of these breeds - they are only allowed to show in Misc classes (if they've gotten that far) or they are limited to companion events (obedience and agility). 

These are not "new" breeds that have recently been created in the past 20-50 years. Some of these are ancient breeds that go back hundreds of years. It takes a bit of work getting into AKC - and this includes having active clubs in the US with many active members and a good sized population of purebred dogs in the AKC. 

Basically my point is with many mixed breeds out there who have a big following from pet people there isn't a shortcut route to them suddenly becoming show dogs - despite what people think. And when you hear about AKC introducing new breeds every year or whatever - these are not mixed breeds with a short breeding history (less than 100 years) behind them. 

Hovawarts have been mentioned here on this forum before. They are not an AKC breed. You can't go to a dog show and see them there. Major reason why is they are very rare here in the US.

French spaniels and Tatras are breeds I'm familiar with (I used to pour over breed books when I was a kid and these were breeds I always said I would get some day LOL). Neither of these breeds are in the AKC. 

Cuvacs were brought up by a member here - and I'm not 100% sure if they are the same thing as Tatras or not? Cuvacs are supposedly closely related to Kuvaszs, but I know Tatras are not.


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## ChrisFromOC (Sep 19, 2018)

Emmdenn said:


> I have several friends who had lab/golden crosses and loved them. They were amazing dogs. Two of these dogs came from backyard breeders who's female lab and male golden were intact and had a litter of puppies. No health testing, no thought put behind it.
> 
> Family friends bought two of these puppies. One looked like a golden, one looked like a lab, both were great dogs, no one would deny that this cross can produce great dogs. The point that forum members are trying to make is that currently, *right now*, as it stands, this is not a recognized breed. It is a mix. It will be difficult for you to find a breeder who abides by the code of ethics for BOTH breeds when they produce puppies. AKA a reputable breeder.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting as it is amazing how different these dogs look. I think they are both great looking dogs too.

In general, I get how it seems like a great idea to cross two breeds to get the best characteristics of both. However, many experienced breeders on this site and others make the point that you don’t get to choose to only pass on the positive traits. Examples are labradoodles that shed yet also have the uptight personality exhibited by poodles, etc.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

If you want a LGX (that's what the service dog organization I volunteer with calls a Lab x Golden cross), I have to echo the sentiments that a released LGX from a service dog organization is your best bet. Health testing will have been done for generations. The parents will also have been selected for breeding based on their temperaments and ease of training. A dog that is cut from a service dog program and adopted out will most likely make a wonderful pet.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

afsst said:


> Hello, this is my first time on this site and I hope this post is acceptable in the Golden Retriever forum site. I'm interested in connecting with reputable Goldador breeders, preferably in or near Colorado. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


I have found


afsst said:


> Hello, this is my first time on this site and I hope this post is acceptable in the Golden Retriever forum site. I'm interested in connecting with reputable Goldador breeders, preferably in or near Colorado. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


I found 3 in Colorado with just a Google search. They are around. The popularity of Goldadors is growing and so is the price. I saw a deposit at 1400.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Just because you find it on the internet doesn’t make it true. There is no Goldador breed. 
Are there people mix breeding any and every thing? Yes. Making up a slick marketing catch term does not make a breed. I could say I have a Chihuaiff to combine a Chihuahua and a Mastiff but just because I do so doesn’t make it a breed. Devloping a breed takes time, a goal, dedication and accountability. None of these Golden Reteiver mix breeders look to even want to do that. They want to randomly throw reproductive organs together to make money.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

LJack said:


> Just because you find it on the internet doesn’t make it true. There is no Goldador breed.
> Are there people mix breeding any and every thing? Yes. Making up a slick marketing catch term does not make a breed. I could s have a Chihuaiff to combine a Chihuahua and a Mastiff but just because I do so doesn’t make it a breed. Devloping a breed takes time, a goal, dedication and accountability. None of these Golden Reteiver mix breeders look to even want to do that. They want to randomly throw reproductive organs together to make money.


I didn't say it was a breed. Its just an amazing mix. It also prevents genetic errors that occur from overbreeding. You may not realize a lot of people don't care to spend 4 grand for a purebred, when they can get a dog thats better behaved out of a mixed breed. I think you might be calling people breeders that just have puppies for sale. You also might be making an issue were there is not one.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JustJC said:


> I didn't say it was a breed. Its just an amazing mix. It also prevents genetic errors that occur from overbreeding. You may not realize a lot of people don't care to spend 4 grand for a purebred, when they can get a dog thats better behaved out of a mixed breed. I think you might be calling people breeders that just have puppies for sale. You also might be making an issue were there is not one.


So when you breed a golden retriever who has a variety of genetic issues to a labrador who has a variety of the same genetic issues.... you magically make a dog that has none of those genetic issues?  And these dogs are magically better behaved....

If you believe that, please adopt from a rescue. Lab mixes are a dime a dozen.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Megora said:


> So when you breed a golden retriever who has a variety of genetic issues to a labrador who has a variety of the same genetic issues.... you magically make a dog that has none of those genetic issues?  And these dogs are magically better behaved....
> 
> If you believe that, please adopt from a rescue. Lab mixes are a dime a dozen.


 A lot of people on this site really like to put words in other people's mouths don't they. I never said the same genetic issue. If you lower the demand for purebred labs or goldens because there is a beautiful, smart, trainable mix thats 1/4 the price you get less overbreeding on the larger scale. Genetics 101, some genetic traits do get eliminated by mixing with a different blood line. Line breeding causes many of the genetic disorders that we see in Labs and Golden Reteivers today.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JustJC said:


> Line breeding causes many of the genetic disorders that we see in Labs and Golden Reteivers today.


Name one that would go away when you make a mix between the two.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> I didn't say it was a breed. Its just an amazing mix. It also prevents genetic errors that occur from overbreeding. You may not realize a lot of people don't care to spend 4 grand for a purebred, when they can get a dog thats better behaved out of a mixed breed. I think you might be calling people breeders that just have puppies for sale. You also might be making an issue were there is not one.


I am sorry if I misunderstood your post. When people create fictitious names for mixes that are often misrepresented as breeds, that is how I tend to understand them. Had you said a Golden/Lab mix instead of Goldador I would not have gone down that particular path of thought.

So, I don’t really think you are open to a discussion but here it goes.

Why do you think they would be better behaved? What about a Golden or a Labrador would you consider to be undesirable behavioral traits? How would that be would be remedied by breeding them together? If a person is not breeding dogs, the actual definition of a breeder, where do the puppies they have for sale come from?

As far as cost, I don’t know why you think all pure bred dogs cost tons and all mix-breeds are cheap. The reverse can be quite accurate as well.

To me personally cost should boil down to value. Am what I paying in relationship to what I am getting, reasonable. I personally don’t think $4000 is reasonable right now for any pet dog.
$100-$500 dollars for a random bread dog would be fair. 
$300-$1000 for an AKC registered dog would be fair in COVID times as the registration gives you a bit more of reassurance that the dog’s temperament and looks will be predictable. $800-$1200 would be fair for AKC registered from parents with just DNA testing which reduces some health risks.
$1000-$1500 would be fair for AKC registered, DNA testing and some but not all of the OFA certifications on parents. 
$1500-$2200 would be fair for AKC registered, DNA testing and full OFA certifications on parents which reduces the tested health risks as much as we are able to at this time and in includes things like dysplasia. 
$2000-3000 would be fair for AKC registered and parents with proven quality in competition along with the DNA and full OFA certifications. the competition titles would provide the buyer proof of the tested quality like trainability for obedience titles or solid structure in conformation titles. 
$2500-$3500 would be fair for AKC registration, DNA testing, full OFA certifications on parent dogs and parent dogs with high level competition titles/awards.

So, have you researched those 3 in Colorado? Are they offering anything above random breeding? Are they doing any DNA testing? Are they doing the OFA certifications? Since no responsible breeder of Goldens or Labs is going to sale to a mix breeder, where do you think mom Golden and dad Lab came from?


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Megora said:


> Name one that would go away when you make a mix between the two.











Three key strategies to reduce genetic disorders in dogs


By Carol Beuchat PhD



www.instituteofcaninebiology.org




Educate yourself. Not going to debate with you.


LJack said:


> I am sorry if I misunderstood your post. When people create fictitious names for mixes that are often misrepresented as breeds, that is how I tend to understand them. Had you said a Golden/Lab mix instead of Goldador I would not have gone down that particular path of thought.
> 
> So, I don’t really think you are open to a discussion but here it goes.
> 
> ...


There was a time when Black labs in Colorado were all the rage and they got so overbread that you started finding skinny, untrainable purebred black labs. Not to mention the 100's of recessive genetic disorders that cropped up. This was a direct result of line breeding in combination with overbreeding due to demand. Purebred labs especially the stocky british labs have always been a personal favorite because of my childhood memories. Genetic testing helps but we still see the same breeding strategy. So I told the fellow that there are people in Colorado who are selling Goldador pups from advertising. Goldador, labradoodle, etc. These nicknames happen because word gets out that they are better all around pets. Some of those genetic issues are resolved by the addition of new genetic material. 








Three key strategies to reduce genetic disorders in dogs


By Carol Beuchat PhD



www.instituteofcaninebiology.org


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JustJC said:


> Educate yourself. Not going to debate with you.


That is a cop out.

I truly am curious what genetic issues you believe would magically vanish when you make a mutt.

No linkies. Tell me what YOU think will vanish.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JustJC said:


> There was a time when Black labs in Colorado were all the rage and they got so overbread that you started finding skinny, untrainable purebred black labs. *Not to mention the 100's of recessive genetic disorders that cropped up. This was a direct result of line breeding in combination with overbreeding due to demand.* Purebred labs especially the stocky british labs have always been a personal favorite because of my childhood memories. Genetic testing helps but we still see the same breeding strategy. So I told the fellow that there are people in Colorado who are selling Goldador pups from advertising. Goldador, labradoodle, etc. These nicknames happen because word gets out that they are better all around pets. Some of those genetic issues are resolved by the addition of new genetic material.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Three questions -

1. Do you honestly think that the black labs that are very common (and sadly, unwanted) to the extent they fill shelters anywhere and everywhere.... are the product of line breeding? Do you understand what line-breeding is?

2. Can you name recessive genetic disorders that you believe are only found in purebred dogs.... and not mutts? You seem quite sold on this, so I gather you have examples that are very close to mind that you can list.

3. If these mutts are better all around pets, why do they fill shelters and rescues?


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Megora said:


> That is a cop out.
> 
> I truly am curious what genetic issues you believe would magically vanish when you make a mutt.
> 
> ...


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

These breeds (Goldens and Labs) are closely related in the grand scheme of things and share a very similar health issue load.

No one is saying anything about overbreeding or inbreeding but you. You know why? Because we have done the research and we do know that more genetic diversity is always a good thing. This can be managed with in a breed with careful choices. If you have Bobby the BYB golden breeder always breeding his dogs that are related, that is going to cause problems. However, responsible breeders are testing and selecting dogs to manage the level of inbreeding. I get that some people can’t handle any inbreeding and that is fine. In that case, they will likely to decide to give up the predictability of an actual breed and go rescue a Hines 57. But to posit that poorly bred animals from a closely related gene pools that carry a large overlap of health issues, well, that is not a strong position in the discussion of reducing the homogeneous inheritance for issues know in both breeds like big ones of hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, eye issues, heart issues, and PRA-prcd.

Again I would question where do you think parent dogs in these mix breeding situations come form? I have always found they are from a very poor sources like BYBs or pet shops. Remember those Labs you didn’t like, I am thinking these or similar are the stock mix breeders are using. So if you breed a skinny, untrainable black lab to a skinny, untrainable and timid Golden, do you think that is a good thing?


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

There are 100s. Learn to read, you will be able to understand. The answer you seek is in the article. I am a microbiologist and have taken several genetics classes and understand how recessive traits arose from line breeding and overbreeding. You are a waste of my time. Read.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So.. just a troll and not interested in a true discussion. Doesn’t want to answer a single question asked in good faith and on top of it rude.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Oh and a call to authority, I love it. That is always a shut up you tweeb, I am a god and my thoughts can not be questioned power move.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Who is trolling who. Why don't you just read the article. ???


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JustJC said:


> There are 100s. Learn to read, you will be able to understand. The answer you seek is in the article. I am a microbiologist and have taken several genetics classes and understand how recessive traits arose from line breeding and overbreeding. You are a waste of my time. Read.


Dearest, this is again a cop out. 

I asked very simple questions. I actually know the answers - but I'm curious what _your _answers would be, particularly if based on real world examples vs theories.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

LJack said:


> Oh and a call to authority, I love it. That is always a shut up you tweeb, I am a god and my thoughts can not be questioned power move.


If you had an education you could read the article.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

You are trolling because you are not interested in a true exchange of ideas. Who has said a lower COI is bad or that more genetic diversity is bad?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> If you had an education you could read the article.


Cool an attack on my intelligence. That is a wonderful discussion and education tactic.

I may not agree with where your thought process is taking you from the same information you’re providing. But I’m never going to attack your character or your intelligence. That’s the difference between true discussion and exploring ideas or being a troll.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JustJC said:


> If you had an education you could read the article.


If you have an education and more importantly an understanding of the subject, then you should be able to answer questions separate from googling-searching for articles that you think back up your arguments. Consider this a class room where you are asked a question and are expected to know the answer already to provide it clearly and coherently without reading from another person's work.

I believe mods will warn us about #13 - and I'm just going to head that off and state that I am being very respectful here. I simply am asking for people to answer questions rather than make broad claims. It would help anyone who browses past here.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Megora said:


> Dearest, this is again a cop out.
> 
> I asked very simple questions. I actually know the answers - but I'm curious what _your _answers would be, particularly if based on real world examples vs theories.


There are 100's of recessive genetic disorders that arise from line breeding. Do you know what that is? This has happened to labrador blood lines in the past. It happened to Pharoahs blood lines in ancient Egypt. If you introduce new genetic material some of those recessive genetic traits will not be expressed. So take your pick. Not a theory, this is pretty basic fact.7


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JustJC said:


> There are 100's of recessive genetic disorders that arise from line breeding. Do you know what that is? This has happened to labrador blood lines in the past. It happened to Pharoahs blood lines in ancient Egypt. If you introduce new genetic material some of those recessive genetic traits will not be expressed. So take your pick. Not a theory, this is pretty basic fact.7


Again - can you explain what these recessive genetic disorders are? Give basic examples. 

Then tell me if you know of mutts that do not have the same genetic disorders.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Megora said:


> If you have an education and more importantly an understanding of the subject, then you should be able to answer questions separate from googling-searching for articles that you think back up your arguments. Consider this a class room where you are asked a question and are expected to know the answer already to provide it clearly and coherently without reading from another person's work.
> 
> I believe mods will warn us about #13 - and I'm just going to head that off and state that I am being very respectful here. I simply am asking for people to answer questions rather than make broad claims. It would help anyone who browses past here.





LJack said:


> Cool an attack on my intelligence. That is a wonderful discussion and education tactic.
> 
> I may not agree with where your thought process is taking you from the same information you’re providing. But I’m never going to attack your character or your intelligence. That’s the difference between true discussion and exploring ideas or being a troll.


Why are you saying Im trolling. I responded to a post and you started badgering me about this but won't even read a short article that answers your questions. Your the only one trolling. Read it dont read it. It doesn't matter. You keep asking the same question and I give you the same answer. You can't seem to let it go though. Who's the troll.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> Why don't you just read the article. ???


I did years ago and many others. I will continue read even more as we go forward.

You assumed that I did not. Then you backhandedly slung stupidity my way with your “education” comment. I do find the definition of troll to in my opinion match you behavior here.

Troll - to antagonize (others) online by deliberately posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

JustJC said:


> I didn't say it was a breed. Its just an amazing mix. It also prevents genetic errors that occur from overbreeding. You may not realize a lot of people don't care to spend 4 grand for a purebred, when they can get a dog thats better behaved out of a mixed breed. I think you might be calling people breeders that just have puppies for sale. You also might be making an issue were there is not one.





JustJC said:


> A lot of people on this site really like to put words in other people's mouths don't they. I never said the same genetic issue. If you lower the demand for purebred labs or goldens because there is a beautiful, smart, trainable mix thats 1/4 the price you get less overbreeding on the larger scale. Genetics 101, some genetic traits do get eliminated by mixing with a different blood line. Line breeding causes many of the genetic disorders that we see in Labs and Golden Reteivers today.





JustJC said:


> There are 100s. Learn to read, you will be able to understand. The answer you seek is in the article. I am a microbiologist and have taken several genetics classes and understand how recessive traits arose from line breeding and overbreeding. You are a waste of my time. Read.


I have a Biology degree, and an Organic Chemistry minor, as well as 40+ years in Goldens. What does that have to do with anything? Microbiology has the smell of eColi going for it but not much to do with knowing much about breeding... I know Carol (who btw is going to be featured in one of the BEC articles this year) and have spoken to her in real life, by telephone. You're misreading that which you will not quote. Labs and Goldens have, for the most part, the same recessive problems. Mixing the two isn't going to fix that. Mixed breeds whose main bases don't miss out of recessive disease, they too have issues. And there's nothing magical about mixing two sporting dog breeds that will get you a dog who has no possibility for recessive disease. You don't like how we chat here, you can leave. .. since you aren't interested in having a discussion with Kate. BTW- what is 'overbreeding' to you? How do we OVER breed a breed? Does that term even have meaning? I don't think so. Not relevant meaning. 
Gosh, I wished for a haha! button like 10 times reading this thread.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> You keep asking the same question and I give you the same answer.


No, I have asked several and you do not answer. Instead you like to call to authority (Microbiologist) and create straw man arguments.

These are the actual questions I have asked of you. You have answered none of them and they will not appear in your linked article.

Why do you think they would be better behaved? 
What about a Golden or a Labrador would you consider to be undesirable behavioral traits?
How would that be would be remedied by breeding them together?
If a person is not breeding dogs, the actual definition of a breeder, where do the puppies they have for sale come from?
So, have you researched those 3 in Colorado?
Are they offering anything above random breeding?
Are they doing any DNA testing? Are they doing the OFA certifications? 
Since no responsible breeder of Goldens or Labs is going to sale to a mix breeder, where do you think mom Golden and dad Lab came from?
Again I would question where do you think parent dogs in these mix breeding situations come form? 
So if you breed a skinny, untrainable black lab to a skinny, untrainable and timid Golden, do you think that is a good thing? 
Who has said a lower COI is bad or that more genetic diversity is bad?


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

LJack said:


> I did years ago and many others. I will continue read even more as we go forward.
> 
> You assumed that I did not. Then you backhandedly slung stupidity my way with your “education” comment. I do find the definition of troll to in my opinion match you behavior here.
> 
> Troll - to antagonize (others) online by deliberately posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content.





Prism Goldens said:


> I have a Biology degree, and an Organic Chemistry minor, as well as 40+ years in Goldens. What does that have to do with anything? Microbiology has the smell of eColi going for it but not much to do with knowing much about breeding... I know Carol (who btw is going to be featured in one of the BEC articles this year) and have spoken to her in real life, by telephone. You're misreading that which you will not quote. Labs and Goldens have, for the most part, the same recessive problems. Mixing the two isn't going to fix that. Mixed breeds whose main bases don't miss out of recessive disease, they too have issues. And there's nothing magical about mixing two sporting dog breeds that will get you a dog who has no possibility for recessive disease. You don't like how we chat here, you can leave. .. since you aren't interested in having a discussion with Kate. BTW- what is 'overbreeding' to you? How do we OVER breed a breed? Does that term even have meaning? I don't think so. Not relevant meaning.
> Gosh, I wished for a haha! button like 10 times reading this thread.


Overbreeding was described as increase in breeding a particular breed of dog to meet the demand.


Prism Goldens said:


> I have a Biology degree, and an Organic Chemistry minor, as well as 40+ years in Goldens. What does that have to do with anything? Microbiology has the smell of eColi going for it but not much to do with knowing much about breeding... I know Carol (who btw is going to be featured in one of the BEC articles this year) and have spoken to her in real life, by telephone. You're misreading that which you will not quote. Labs and Goldens have, for the most part, the same recessive problems. Mixing the two isn't going to fix that. Mixed breeds whose main bases don't miss out of recessive disease, they too have issues. And there's nothing magical about mixing two sporting dog breeds that will get you a dog who has no possibility for recessive disease. You don't like how we chat here, you can leave. .. since you aren't interested in having a discussion with Kate. BTW- what is 'overbreeding' to you? How do we OVER breed a breed? Does that term even have meaning? I don't think so. Not relevant meaning.
> Gosh, I wished for a haha! button like 10 times reading this thread.


Overbreeding is increased breeding of one breed to meet demand. It becomes a problem when line breeding "using the same genetic lines for desirable traits" produces many animals that are related. Then these lines are so prevalent in the breed that recessive genetic disorders are expressed because both parents have the same recessive gene.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So does over breeding to your mind mean any purebred dog breed? I mean all purebred dogs in a breed are related, it’s how a breed comes about.

Yeah, maybe I am a dummy. I know what is coming. Avoidance or another staw man where JustJC answers a question no one asked.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

JustJC
Are you trolling any Labrador forums as well?


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Megora said:


> That is a cop out.
> 
> I truly am curious what genetic issues you believe would magically vanish when you make a mutt.
> 
> No linkies. Tell me what YOU think will vanish.


Do you do genetic testing on your dogs?
Do you know how it works?
Do you know how many variables there are and how many are tested for?


LJack said:


> So does over breeding to your mind mean any pure bred dog breed? I mean all pure breed dog in a breed are related, it’s how a breed comes about.
> 
> Yeah, maybe I am a dummy. I know what is coming. Avoidance or another staw man where JustJC answers a question no





SRW said:


> JustJC
> Are you trolling any Labrador forums as well?


*******


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Since AKC no longer publishes numbers of dogs registered by breed yearly I cannot prove this- but I do not believe there are any more litters being bred now than there were 10 years ago in the popular breeds. My point on the term 'overbreeding' is that it has no real meaning, and isn't verifiable. 
And of course any of us who breed do DNA testing and know how it works. Do YOU know that Labs have many of the same diseases being tested for?
I do wonder what SRW inquired - are you trolling the Lab forum too? Because nothing you have stated here is meaningful to a Golden Retriever expert.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

Answer the questions?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> Do you do genetic testing on your dogs?
> Do you know how it works?
> Do you know how many variables there are and how many are tested for?


Yes. Paw Print Pedigrees - Details for Tizzy





Paw Print Pedigrees - Details for Tilt


Paw Print Pedigrees dog profile for Tilt. Tilt is a Golden Retriever




www.pawprintgenetics.com




Yes.
Not sure I am understanding your question. Not avoiding so I will say my answer could be yes or no here depending on your meaning. I don’t know it all. I am not afraid to say that. I am in fact wary of anyone who does believe they know it all.

Your turn...remember that list of questions I asked above? How about some actual answers.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

My breeder girl’s litter of LGX is turning for advanced training right now (between Feb and May). Two from the February turn in have been released. They will be wonderful pets. While I would get an LGX from a service dog organization, because their parents’ health was fully vetted, I would be cautious about getting one in the general pet population. So often, these mixed breeds are created by breeders who don’t get all the genetic testing recommended for the two breeds involved (Labs and Goldens, in this case).


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

And for what it’s worth, I’m glad the organization i volunteer with calls them LGX and not Goldador, because LGX is what they are - a Lab Golden cross.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

GoldenDude said:


> My breeder girl’s litter of LGX is turning for advanced training right now (between Feb and May).


That is supper exciting. I thought of you when I watched that NetFlix special on the seeing eye dogs.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

A reminder to All-

Please keep the Forum Rules in mind when commenting in this thread or it will have to be closed due to multiple Rule violations by members. 

The Rules can be viewed here-

GRF Board Rules & Registration Agreement | Golden Retriever Dog Forums (goldenretrieverforum.com)


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

LJack said:


> Yes.
> Yes.
> Not sure I am understanding your question. Not avoiding so I will say my answer could be yes or no here depending on your meaning. I don’t know it all. I am not afraid to say that. I am in fact wary of anyone who does believe they know it all.
> 
> Your turn...remember that lit’s of questions I asked above? How about some actual answers.


Read the thread I answered already.


LJack said:


> Yes. Paw Print Pedigrees - Details for Tizzy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So taking a dig at me as a know it all isn't trolling. I replied to a mans post hours ago. You jumped on me about something you have no interest updating your knowledge about from a decent source. Call me a troll. Badger me all day. You haven't read my responses because I answered your question to reply to medora or whoever. You painfully obviously don't know how mixing bloodlines eliminate recessive traits. Which is fact not theory. (Again, read any reliable article) I know how recessive genetic disorders are expressed because I studied it in college. I understand how these became prevalent in dog breeds because I did my own research. My opinion is people should look for mixed breed dogs more because it slows demand for purebred. This slows the addition of multiple dogs from the same genetic pool. This then eliminates unintended breeding of dogs from the same genetic pool. Genetic testic is not a panacea. Many dissorders that have been eliminated by testing according to an article are being replaced by new ones. If a lab and a golden both have the same gene for cancer, the pups will get an even higher expression rate. However if 2 dogs get the same type of cancer it doesn't mean they have the same gene. Those 2 dogs pups may have a lower incident if the genes that caused cancer are different.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

GoldenDude said:


> My breeder girl’s litter of LGX is turning for advanced training right now (between Feb and May). Two from the February turn in have been released. They will be wonderful pets. While I would get an LGX from a service dog organization, because their parents’ health was fully vetted, I would be cautious about getting one in the general pet population. So often, these mixed breeds are created by breeders who don’t get all the genetic testing recommended for the two breeds involved (Labs and Goldens, in this case).





afsst said:


> Hello, this is my first time on this site and I hope this post is acceptable in the Golden Retriever forum site. I'm interested in connecting with reputable Goldador breeders, preferably in or near Colorado. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


I would check out Goldapor Puppy


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So, let me first apologize for calling you a troll. That is a character judgement and I agree that was not cool.

I do not believe you are being fair, authentic or responsive to discussion here. Since this perception aligned with the definition of trolling, that is why I used the term troll. It really was in regard to behavior I am reading as adversarial and perhaps intentionally evasive. I will no longer use that term as a shorthand in this thread and instead be more accurate in my descriptions.

I did not call you a know it all. Nor was it intended as a dig. Simply me trying to convey that no one knows it all. If you read it as a dig I am sorry, I just didn’t want to leave myself open to another comment from you belittling my education which to me read as a dig at my intelligence, though that my not have been your intent.

Why when I have told you that I have read the article you linked (years ago and in fact a few time since) would you continue to assert I have not?

I have read all the post and have not seen an answer to these question.

Why do you think they would be better behaved?
What about a Golden or a Labrador would you consider to be undesirable behavioral traits?
How would that be would be remedied by breeding them together?
If a person is not breeding dogs, the actual definition of a breeder, where do the puppies they have for sale come from?
So, have you researched those 3 in Colorado?
Are they offering anything above random breeding?
Are they doing any DNA testing? Are they doing the OFA certifications?
Since no responsible breeder of Goldens or Labs is going to sale to a mix breeder, where do you think mom Golden and dad Lab came from?
Again I would question where do you think parent dogs in these mix breeding situations come form?
So if you breed a skinny, untrainable black lab to a skinny, untrainable and timid Golden, do you think that is a good thing?
Who has said a lower COI is bad or that more genetic diversity is bad?
If I missed it, could you please quote it for me?

Okay so you want to mix, great. That is not what I believe because what happens to breeds over time with that? I believe the breeds are important and worth preserving. I hate to speak in the voice of the forum. I would hazard a guess though that since this is a Golden Retriever forum most of us want Goldens to keep existing. That takes Golden Retrievers being bred to Golden Retrievers.

As far as I can tell and honestly you never clarifiy your position you only muddy it with straw man arguments, your position is that it would be best to breed toward the maximum genetic diversity. If I have misunderstood your position please, please, pretty please actually clarify your position.

This would lead to no breeds and a generic dog.

So on to your cancer example...you do know what are the common cancers in Goldens and Labs right? Golden to Lab breedings with the example/aim you took to reduce cancer will not be as you stated the panacea to fix cancer. These gene pools are way too similar to be the fix you are positing. Some of biggest cancers in Goldens are Hemangiosarcoma, Lymphoma and Mast Cell. Guess what all three of these ping as Labrador cancer risks as well.

So, why are you pushing Golden/Lab crosses specifically? Especially on a Golden Retriever enthusiast site? Why is your position not that breeds are bad and genetic diversity is good; go forth and breed as disparate populations as possible to each other?

Perhaps there might be an answer or two beyond I already answered this, learn to read, or introducing some other tangent to evade a real open/honest discussion of ideas. Sadly, I am not going to hold my breath for fear of death happening before a straight forward answer.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> I would check out Goldador Puppy - Golden + Lab = Pawfection


Great example to run from if health testing is important to a buyer. No mentions of it at all, not DNA (genotypic) or the OFA Certifications (phenotypic).

Just relying on the hope that these two very similar breeds won’t increase the likelihood that puppies will be homozygous for terrible diseases that are present in both source breeds.

I will literally pay JustJC $50 if Taffy on that site has full and verifiable health certifications on OFA. Seriously get that dog’s registration name or number post it here there are several on the forum who could find the OFA page with that info. Recommended Tests | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

If it is proven to be that exact dog and it posts with full and verifiable OFA health certifications, JustJC I will send you $50.

By the way those dogs are $1900-2300. That is the pricing that would get you a purebred Golden with more testing than then the none they seem to have. So the argument that this mix breed would be 1/4 the price is very incorrect.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

LJack said:


> So, let me first apologize for calling you a troll. That is a character judgement and I agree that was not cool.
> 
> I do not believe you are being fair, authentic or responsive to discussion here. Since this perception aligned with the definition of trolling, that is why I used the term troll. It really was in regard to behavior I am reading as adversarial and perhaps intentionally evasive. I will no longer use that term as a shorthand in this thread and instead be more accurate in my descriptions.
> 
> ...


What was interesting in research I did was that (paraphrasing) that there are multiple causes for these disorders. I have done my fair share of dna testing in my day. When you test your pick a handful of markers. You generally don't find every mutation possible but the most common ones. Then you have 100 different genes that have the potential to cause cancer in a Labrador. Not all mutations show up on the test so to be sure even the most conscientious breeder can never be 100% sure that 2 mutations on the same gene (which would cause expression of the gene) will end up in the pup. Now when you are breeding 2 different breeds those mutations are likely to be on different genes so a lesser chance of it expressing. Cancer is a good example because there are a bunch of ways dogs can get cancer. If 2 dogs get the same type of cancer it does not mean they have the same genetic mutations. Its less likely to find the same mutations in Goldens that you find in Labs because they have been separated. Same disease yes same mutations no.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

So will a mix present fewer genetic mutations. Absolutely 100% every time. Not theory. *Fewer than the parents. *If you bread 2 skinny untrainable dogs do you get a litter that is all the same? Well you said that you don't get to chose traits. I don’t know how it works with AKC but with purebred arabian horses there is a percentage of pure arabian blood requirement. They expect a certain amount of xbreeding. This prevents what we saw in the 90's with labs being so inbred (yes I realize there was more to it). I hope Golden and Labs are well preserved as well. I grew up with purebred black labs and watched as the bread became something different over time from too much inbreeding. I'm not a breeder so I have no dog in the fight. But some of the breeders on here need a class in genetics. And not the one from the genetics lab who's trying to sell you tests.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

And yet still not a single answer to my questions posed.

I am am sure as a grown person you certainly understand the concept of a dialog. I have been trying to engage you in dialogue all day yet what I am getting instead is a diatribe. Heck I’d even take a debate but that would require you to actually engage with me, my topics and my questions. All I am seeing here is your own echo chamber.

How about just pick three...
I have read all the post and have not seen an answer to these question.

Why do you think they would be better behaved?
What about a Golden or a Labrador would you consider to be undesirable behavioral traits?
How would that be would be remedied by breeding them together?
If a person is not breeding dogs, the actual definition of a breeder, where do the puppies they have for sale come from?
So, have you researched those 3 in Colorado?
Are they offering anything above random breeding?
Are they doing any DNA testing? Are they doing the OFA certifications?
Since no responsible breeder of Goldens or Labs is going to sale to a mix breeder, where do you think mom Golden and dad Lab came from?
Again I would question where do you think parent dogs in these mix breeding situations come form?
So if you breed a skinny, untrainable black lab to a skinny, untrainable and timid Golden, do you think that is a good thing?
Who has said a lower COI is bad or that more genetic diversity is bad?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> I don’t know how it works with AKC but with purebred arabian horses there is a percentage of pure arabian blood requirement. They expect a certain amount of xbreeding.


To my knowledge and verifing in the 2020 AHA rule book, the rules are relatively unchanged from when I completed with Arabians and Half-Arabians at the regional and National level in my teen years/young adulthood. Arabians are maintained as a closed stud book of purebred animals. Those mixes are either registered separately as Anglo or Half-Arabians. They do not expect any mix breeding in the separate recording for purebred Arabians, at least in our country. Which is why I hazard that they state they will review all foreign registration will be reviewed for purebred status. AHA 2020 Handbook

If the AKC did the same, it would be a Half-Golden Retriever. But we know AKC is a purebred registry and does not keep books for mix breeds like AHA. The closest you get with AKC is PAL but those dogs are altered and not breeding animals unlike what we see with AHA. So that is a false equivalence.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

I am* am sure as a grown person you certainly understand the concept of a dialog. I have been trying to engage you in dialogue all day yet what I am getting instead is a diatribe. Heck I’d even take a debate but that would require you to actually engage with me, my topics and my questions. All I am seeing here is your own echo chamber.*
Your just being unpleasant. I just explained why mixed breeds end up with fewer genetic mutations. In detail. That explains why you in general terms get better results from each litter. You are the one who apparently can't understand the relationship. To each of your question I will only explain why I say mixed pups are going to have fewer genetic mutations. This is fact. Your other question are irrelevant to anything I've said. You know what you are a lost cause. I don't think you can understand or you simply don't want to.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> But some of the breeders on here need a class in genetics. And not the one from the genetics lab who's trying to sell you tests.


That is incredibly insulting.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LJack said:


> That is incredibly insulting.


I basically have reached the opinion that the person is a kid who is goofing around on the internet. Various reasons make it very apparent. Not worth engaging.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Did you see that your post that finally did manage a bare minimum response to one question. Posted at the same time as my response to you?

I guess that one answer is the best I will get. I have to assume that I fully understand your position is that everything is solved by mix breeding.

It is incredibly sad you will not even consider the quality of source dogs being bred or the interrelatedness of the breeds being leveraged for the increase in genetic diversity. That you appear to be adverse to health testing in general and DNA testing specifically.


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## JustJC (Apr 25, 2021)

LJack said:


> Did you see that your post that finally did manage a bare minimum response to one question. Posted at the same time as my response to you?
> 
> I guess that one answer is the best I will get. I have to assume that I fully understand your position is that everything is solved by mix breeding.
> 
> It is incredibly sad you will not even consider the quality of source dogs being bred or the interrelatedness of the breeds being leveraged for the increase in genetic diversity. That you appear to be adverse to health testing in general and DNA testing specifically.


Jesus did you even read my reply your an idiot im done
I


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

JustJC said:


> Jesus did you even read my reply your an idiot im done
> I


Lovely, I apologized for the troll thing. Yet you find it appropriate to call me uneducated and now an idiot.

Way to make my point for me that this is a diatribe and you have never been open to a dialogue.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

LJack said:


> I apologized for the troll thing.


You shouldn't have.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Perhaps not, but I do not like to make character judgements which my comment came across as. I am fine with judging behavior so to me “you are a troll” versus “why are you trolling” are very different. This person has presented enough behavior here to see they don’t respect anyone but themselves and are not interested in a real dialogue. There is some behavior here that seems very narcissistic. Most of the behavior has been plain rude with a big side of evasion.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

LJack said:


> Most of the behavior has been plain rude with a big side of evasion.


Sounds like a troll to me.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

This thread is being closed due to continued Rule violations and reported posts.


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