# Teaching Moving Downs?



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

For Rally. 

I thought I'd throw this in here, because it's something I'm working on with the little boy wonder and I'm at a loss on how to teach this?

Moving stands are pretty easy because the dog is already "standing" and knows that when my hand comes down he has to stop moving. <= I haven't worked on this enough, but just from the class or two that our instructor had us practice, Jacks stopped his forward motion after maybe one or two steps and held his stay while he got the exam. 

I figure that once I start working on these regularly, he should be OK.

But the moving downs - ACK! 

What usually happens is I give him the "drop" signal and then the "stay" signal with the verbal command. He goes down briefly before jumping back up to keep heeling next to me. He'll stay only if I pause to give him an additional "stay" command before continuing my movement. 

What is the foundation training you do? Or what steps do you follow? 

Do you train with the pause and then just make it briefer and then nonexistent as the dog gets the idea? 

The dumb thing is as far as I know the moving down is just a couple steps forward and then circling the dog back to heel position. 

It isn't like the moving stand where you have to go a distance away while somebody goes up and does a full exam. <- But there must be something I'm doing wrong because my dog springs up like the floor's biting him in the butt. 

ETA - I know ideally that sits and downs should be automatic "stay in position" until released, even without the stay command, but while I expect my guy to remain in position until released (OK or new command), I've always given him the "stay" or "wait" command when I'm leaving heel position and want him to stay behind. I'm soft spoken and nervous when in the ring and want him to proceed in heel position during the heeling pattern, even if I forget to give him the "heel" command.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

How are his stationary downs?

Does he pop up? If so, I would back up and work stationary downs - with plenty of variation in duration. Some downs are 3 seconds, some are 3 minutes some are 40 seconds some are 1 minute...the point being he downs until given a cue move...

If he doesn't pop up from stationary downs...Im wondering if you are offering some physical cue to move on the moving downs....a sweep of your hand, a turn of your shoulder etc...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

His stationary downs are fine. At Rally he's the only guy who goes down in heel position and then holds the stay when I step forward and circle him. 

With the moving downs the way I practiced yesterday at class -

1. I started from a sit in heel position and told him heel.
2. After two or three steps, I did my usual down hand signal (downward sweep with my right hand) and basically said "Down-Stay" and continued walking a couple steps.

He would drop down and then spring up to get back into heel position next to me. 

The only way I could get him stay was by basically going back to the stationary down and pausing until he was down and then giving him the stay command before continuing. 

Maybe he's not hearing the stay command because I rush it out with the down command?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

A few things: 

1) Practice downs in front of you. Sometimes reinforce right away, sometimes after he maintains position for a few seconds. Toss a reinforcer away to get him up for the next rep. You are looking for SPEEDY responses to the down. And....you are working on not having to use a stay cue.
2) Practice the same thing while in a stationary heel. 
3) While your dog is in front of you, walk backwards VERY SLOWLY, encouraging him to move with you (he is walking towards you, you are backing away) Ask for a down (verbal and/or visual), and as soon as he starts to go down, move forward to feed him in position. Then release and resume your backwards motion. The goal is he is learning to lie down while moving. The challenge for you right now is that you heel position has a higher history of reinforcement than maintaining the down, and when presented with your side....he wants to heel. By this backwards motion exercise..... we are teaching the "lying down while moving" piece, WITHOUT the competition of the "I see your side and feel like I should be heeling". 
4) Once you've spent a long period on the above sets...try your heel in motion and it should be there. The first few times, when he does go down , jump in and reinforce heavily (again, not moving towards him until you see hints that he is doing down). Typically on the first few reps, we will see the start of the down, mark, move to the dog to reinforce in position, move away a step or two, reinforce...move a step or two away, reinforce. Return to hee....release. And repeat the whole thing. By putting in that little bit of stay practice after the down....we help to cement the concept of staying down.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Have you tried not saying anything, but only issuing a physical cue to down and another to stay? Does he still break?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

also, and you probably already know this, NEVER ask him to heel from a down position. He will never do it in obedience, don't ask for it. He will quickly learn that any time he is down, he is not going to heel.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> also, and you probably already know this, NEVER ask him to heel from a down position. He will never do it in obedience, don't ask for it. He will quickly learn that any time he is down, he is not going to heel.


For the moving down in rally, would you do a release and quickly cue heeling?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Maxs Mom just pointed out to me that in rally, you might have to heel your dog from a down. I was thinking only regular obedience, so I it's quite possible I'm wrong. Someone who knows the rally signs needs to step in....on the moving down, do they go right back to a heel from the down? I don't remember, it's been a long time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> also, and you probably already know this, NEVER ask him to heel from a down position. He will never do it in obedience, don't ask for it. He will quickly learn that any time he is down, he is not going to heel.


It's done in Rally though... :uhoh: 

I do emphasize my release (OK) before telling him to heel though. 

@nonverbal commands only - Maybe? I do the downward sweep and then the stay signal in addition to the verbal command (Down-Stay). I haven't tested the hand signals alone, but... I assume he'd break? (I'll test later).

@Red Dogs - Thank you<: We have done the drops in front in class, but haven't practiced them to the extent that he's doing instant drops without some creeping forward first (same as the stands). I obviously should be practicing them anyway.... :doh:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, if I remember right (it's been a long time) I would say, "okay, come on!" and then "heel"
I have never heeled him from a down, because it can cause problems later with the drop on recall and/or the signal exercise.

edit to add....
I have to wonder why they would do this in rally, which is supposed to prepare you to go into regular obedience. It's really rather counter-productive, whereas the other rally signs are all pretty good preparation for the exercises you'll encounter in obedience.



RedDogs said:


> For the moving down in rally, would you do a release and quickly cue heeling?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If he's creeping on the drops, take a big step into him when you give him the down command (from in front of him) to force him to "fold back".




Megora said:


> It's done in Rally though... :uhoh:
> 
> I do emphasize my release (OK) before telling him to heel though.
> 
> ...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> edit to add....
> I have to wonder why they would do this in rally, which is supposed to prepare you to go into regular obedience. It's really rather counter-productive, whereas the other rally signs are all pretty good preparation for the exercises you'll encounter in obedience.


It's not just the (down + circle + heel) or moving down exercises which could cause problems... 

I've been having issues about training the "no sit" finishes for the fronts. That could essentially mess up everything for somebody who wants to make sure that those finish sits are perfect.

And the funky about turns (basically you sending the dog into a right finish from the heel position while you make a U-turn. The dog is supposed to find heel and continue heeling with you). <- I started using the "AROUND" command with a hand signal to send him around so he doesn't think he's doing a right finish. I use an "ABOUT" command when practicing regular novice about turns and do the footwork cues, so hopefully that avoids any confusion for him. :doh:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

the "no sit" is derived from the utility signal exercise, in which you have them come immediately to heel without a front.  So I can at least *sort of* justify that one.
Those funky about turns, I agree, are pointless, and probably counter-productive. 
But we trained obedience first, and then just backed up and entered some rally shows for fun (never trained rally), so it wasn't really a problem for us. He already knew the obedience stuff. 
I can see that doing it the other way around really could cause some confusions.



Megora said:


> It's not just the (down + circle + heel) or moving down exercises which could cause problems...
> 
> I've been having issues about training the "no sit" finishes for the fronts. That could essentially mess up everything for somebody who wants to make sure that those finish sits are perfect.
> 
> And the funky about turns (basically you sending the dog into a right finish from the heel position while you make a U-turn. The dog is supposed to find heel and continue heeling with you). <- I started using the "AROUND" command with a hand signal to send him around so he doesn't think he's doing a right finish. I use an "ABOUT" command when practicing regular novice about turns and do the footwork cues, so hopefully that avoids any confusion for him. :doh:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Okay, just thinking out loud here...
when you do the moving down, where are your arms?
When we walk away from our dogs on a long down, many of us cross our arms in front of our bodies even as we're walking, rather than having them hanging at our sides. Or if you walk away with them hanging down, most people will cross them in front of their bodies while standing facing the dog. This is a body cue to the dog that he is NOT to get up and come with us. Arms down means he is going to be called (recall exercise). Arms folded means he is to stay where he is.
Do you do that on his long downs? 
Maybe on the moving down, immediately get your arms crossed in front of your body rather than swinging at your sides. That might help him to understand that he's not to move.
Not sure I'm making any sense, although I know what I'm trying to say.



Megora said:


> It's not just the (down + circle + heel) or moving down exercises which could cause problems...
> 
> I've been having issues about training the "no sit" finishes for the fronts. That could essentially mess up everything for somebody who wants to make sure that those finish sits are perfect.
> 
> And the funky about turns (basically you sending the dog into a right finish from the heel position while you make a U-turn. The dog is supposed to find heel and continue heeling with you). <- I started using the "AROUND" command with a hand signal to send him around so he doesn't think he's doing a right finish. I use an "ABOUT" command when practicing regular novice about turns and do the footwork cues, so hopefully that avoids any confusion for him. :doh:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> But we trained obedience first, and then just backed up and entered some rally shows for fun (never trained rally), so it wasn't really a problem for us. He already knew the obedience stuff.
> 
> I can see that doing it the other way around really could cause some confusions.


*nods* It's about the same with us. He's been in novice+ classes since he was 7 months old. And a lot of the exercises were introduced in those early novice classes as foundation exercises. There's just some that are a little bit different. I've talked to people who have worked their dogs through rally and obedience at the same time, but they assured me that if the dog has a solid foundation with the finishes or abouts, that there won't be too much confusion. 

I guess I can see at least that the sight picture in rally is completely different than when you are training in novice or open. 

ETA - Oh we are doing the rally classes for my benefit. I have to be retrained to follow a course and read signs instead of staring only at my dog and listening for the next command. 



hotel4dogs said:


> Maybe on the moving down, immediately get your arms crossed in front of your body rather than swinging at your sides. That might help him to understand that he's not to move.
> Not sure I'm making any sense, although I know what I'm trying to say.


I think I see what you are saying.... 

For the regular stays I have my arms crossed before I leave. Although I also train with them down and swinging, simply because I know I may go birdbrained in the ring and forget to cross them before stepping and don't want to worry about him jumping up. 

It technically shouldn't make a difference.... except with the regular stays there is generally a slight second pause with me still in heel position which I usually straighten up, take a deep breath, cross my arms and head out.

I'm juggling my thoughts while I try to remember what I did with my arms last night. I wasn't swinging them? My left hand was still in the heel position (hand over belly button). My right hand was still giving the stay sign as I stepped out. I think?


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

Is the dog supposed to stay laying down while you walk away and then catch up when you call them?? In CKC rally for the moving down you tell them to drop down from walking and you pause next to them, and then you both carry on together.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The_Artful_Dodger said:


> Is the dog supposed to stay laying down while you walk away and then catch up when you call them?? In CKC rally for the moving down you tell them to drop down from walking and you pause next to them, and then you both carry on together.


I double-checked just in case I was totally off -



> Moving down–Walk around dog–While heeling and without pausing,
> the handler will down the dog and walk around the dog to the
> left, returning to heel position. The handler must pause in heel position





> after returning.
> ​


​


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

In general, I don't pattern train my dogs too much, so none of the rally exercises cause problems in that sense. I may never heel my dog off of a down in obedience (well actually I can think of one case where I might want to but I've never done it so far), but I practice that anyway, not because it's in rally, but because I want to make sure my dog totally and completely understands all of his commands whether they are in the context he will see them in the ring or not. Just like my dog will never do a sit from a stand in the obedience ring (well, I should say just like I *hope* my dog never does a sit from a stand in the obedience ring LOL), but I mix up my signals a lot in training so I often will give some mixed up pattern like stand sit down come.

You could try having someone standing behind the dog hold onto a leash so that when he tries to jump up and follow you he can't. Sometimes that is the biggest help for my dogs - make it impossible for them to do it the way they are wanting so they can see what it's like to do it the way youy are wanting.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Megora said:


> For Rally.
> 
> I thought I'd throw this in here, because it's something I'm working on with the little boy wonder and I'm at a loss on how to teach this?
> 
> ...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> I was doing both Rally and advanced obedience and have had no issues with a no sit..


 
Yeah, I will practice no sits on finishes when I need a dog to pay better attention or get more drive going around - either by heeling forward or just throwing a treat/toy foward. It's no different than a recall or a go-out - you do this (touch, retrieve, come to front, etc) unless I tell you otherwise.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yes, if I remember right (it's been a long time) I would say, "okay, come on!" and then "heel"
> I have never heeled him from a down, because it can cause problems later with the drop on recall and/or the signal exercise.
> 
> edit to add....
> I have to wonder why they would do this in rally, which is supposed to prepare you to go into regular obedience. It's really rather counter-productive, whereas the other rally signs are all pretty good preparation for the exercises you'll encounter in obedience.


I've never found it to be a problem. I do catch-up heeling from a down all the time.  In fact, here lately, I've been playing with the Schutzhund moves of down and sit while in motion. So I'll heel, drop him, cue catch up heeling, heel, sit, cue catch up heeling. It's had no negative effects on his "traditional" heel work and I like that it keeps him needing to pay very close attention to me b/c... keep on his toes b/c who knows what I might ask for.

Speaking of on their toes and mixing it up, here's a great video of a hodge podge of Open and Utility exercises. I'm really liking this idea:






To the OP: I think it's just something new. I suspect that if you take the speed out of it as you were initially thinking -- start with whatever length of pause your dog needs to understand he's not to get back up, then gradually reduce the pause until it is gone -- that you'll be fine.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I would be concerned about the signal exercise, Steph, at least with my dog. He has a tendency to want to anticipate commands, and if he *thinks* I might call him to heel from a down, or from a stand, I'd be afraid he'd anticipate it and show up at my left side when I don't want him to.
Maybe, maybe not, but I didn't want to take the chance. 
Now that we're pretty well retired from obedience (although I do plan to back up and get his UKC UD soon) I do all sorts of things that I didn't do while we were working on the UDX.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If you can, get someone else to watch your arms, or video it for you. Are you somehow cuing him to heel, maybe because your left arm is still in the "heel" position?
Dogs are amazingly tuned in to our body language. You might be sending him a mixed signal without being aware of it.

".....For the regular stays I have my arms crossed before I leave. Although I also train with them down and swinging, simply because I know I may go birdbrained in the ring and forget to cross them before stepping and don't want to worry about him jumping up. 

It technically shouldn't make a difference.... except with the regular stays there is generally a slight second pause with me still in heel position which I usually straighten up, take a deep breath, cross my arms and head out.

I'm juggling my thoughts while I try to remember what I did with my arms last night. I wasn't swinging them? My left hand was still in the heel position (hand over belly button). My right hand was still giving the stay sign as I stepped out. I think?[/QUOTE]


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

Megora said:


> I double-checked just in case I was totally off -


Oh! Its a walk-around. That makes more sense! I watched the Advanced group in CARO doing that one and most people kind of pivoted infront of thier dogs so they were facing them while they crossed infront instead of walking straight away from the dog, which might help the dog realize they aren't supposed to follow. I haven't worked on that one myself yet but I would probably just throw in a "wait" after the "down".


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> If you can, get someone else to watch your arms, or video it for you. Are you somehow cuing him to heel, maybe because your left arm is still in the "heel" position?
> Dogs are amazingly tuned in to our body language. You might be sending him a mixed signal without being aware of it.


I will have to sort it out. 

I think part of my problem is I saw a much more advanced trainer than I am demo the exercise with her dog. Even though her dog is two years younger than my guy, she's already doing most of the utility excercises. So there isn't much difference between the moving stand or the moving down for her.

So basically she made it look uber easy and was able to embellish it more than I can - and she took like 2 or 3 steps out in front before going back and circling the dog. 

Then when I tried it with Jacks, I probably was rushing him too much. All of this is new to me. 

It's an Excellent exercise thingy, but then I'm training Jacks through all three levels now and hope to work my way through the levels quickly. The advantage he has right now is that he's a velcro dog, even off leash. 

Bad part? I'm learning all of these different things right along with him and I'm probably making mistakes while I learn. :doh:


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Megora said:


> I will have to sort it out.
> 
> Bad part? I'm learning all of these different things right along with him and I'm probably making mistakes while I learn. :doh:


We all make those same mistakes and then learn from them..keep working at it and good luck!
Michelle


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I taught my Filly a backup down, and it has been working great. I also taught it for the moving stand, and utility signals. I am just starting to teach it to Rivet, because of problems with the DOR.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I know what you're saying, but wouldn't that apply to excerises he is supposed to be doing too, and just anticipating before the command is given? I can see how not teaching something would avoid anticipating something they'll never have to do, but it isn't really doing anything to address anticipating the excersices they will be doing. That's part of why a lot of people teach different things that they won't ever do in the ring- they want a dog that is thinking about what you are doing, not just running on auto pilot. When I leave my dog on a stand, I want him paying attention to what signal I'm about to give him - it could be sit, drop, come, spin, back up, twist, etc. Instead of thinking "okay, here's the part where I go down" before I even give a signal.



hotel4dogs said:


> I would be concerned about the signal exercise, Steph, at least with my dog. He has a tendency to want to anticipate commands, and if he *thinks* I might call him to heel from a down, or from a stand, I'd be afraid he'd anticipate it and show up at my left side when I don't want him to.
> Maybe, maybe not, but I didn't want to take the chance.
> Now that we're pretty well retired from obedience (although I do plan to back up and get his UKC UD soon) I do all sorts of things that I didn't do while we were working on the UDX.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh yes, absolutely true about anticipating the exercises he is supposed to be doing. Just don't want to add more possibilities for him to anticipate!
I just took him back to (drop in ) training, for the first time since he got the UDX in November, because we're going after the UKC UD pretty soon. 
Found out that over the winter Tito learned to count during the signal exercise. 
Stand....locks up real nice
Stay.....great stand/stay
waits patiently for me to get to the other end of the ring and turn, waits patiently for the down signal.
Down....folds into a lovely down. 
THEN I SWEAR HE COUNTS TO 5 SECONDS
and SITS
even though I have NOT given the sit signal:doh:. I've counted. It's ALWAYS 5 seconds :doh::doh::doh:
Waits patiently for the recall signal. 
Flies in quickly on the recall.
Waits patiently for the finish signal.
Finishes promptly and cleanly.

ARGH!!!!!!

I hope the judges give the sit signal in less than 5 seconds.....



Loisiana said:


> I know what you're saying, but wouldn't that apply to excerises he is supposed to be doing too, and just anticipating before the command is given? I can see how not teaching something would avoid anticipating something they'll never have to do, but it isn't really doing anything to address anticipating the excersices they will be doing. That's part of why a lot of people teach different things that they won't ever do in the ring- they want a dog that is thinking about what you are doing, not just running on auto pilot. When I leave my dog on a stand, I want him paying attention to what signal I'm about to give him - it could be sit, drop, come, spin, back up, twist, etc. Instead of thinking "okay, here's the part where I go down" before I even give a signal.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> THEN I SWEAR HE COUNTS TO 5 SECONDS
> and SITS
> even though I have NOT given the sit signal:doh:. I've counted. It's ALWAYS 5 seconds :doh::doh::doh:
> Waits patiently for the recall signal.
> ...


*grins* But that's why we all train with longer times in anticipation of slow moving judges who can't tell time, right?  

Just as an update - I did nothing but "down" drills yesterday evening. I'm wondering if that is the equivalant of us doing push up exercises. Probably a good thing since it was too gross outside to get the guy out for a walk.

After reading through everyone's comments and matching it up with what I was seeing while we trained yesterday, I'm thinking part of the reason is he's waiting for me to do the whole pause before going down. Probably because I did not train instant downs the same way I worked on instant sits. :doh:

The good news is he does go down on verbal command only (even though I have to use my DOW-OWN tone) and does not need treats to lure him down. 

Bad news is when he's in front of me the hand motion that seems to work best at getting him to stop forward motion and quickly drop is a sort of heil hitler stabbing the air with my fingertips thingy. :uhoh: Or I thought that was what it looked like from the first person perspective. My sister was sitting right there watching and she said it looked like I was trying to put a spell on him. Ohwell. :bowl:


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

Megora said:


> My sister was sitting right there watching and she said it looked like I was trying to put a spell on him. Ohwell. :bowl:


Oh yes - a down stay spell! Why didn't I think of that? No more dog training books - I'm heading to the magic section of the library


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The_Artful_Dodger said:


> Oh yes - a down stay spell! Why didn't I think of that? No more dog training books - I'm heading to the magic section of the library


*laughs* I've already tried hypnosis (the fixed stare + telepathic chanting "you will stay") with mixed results. :


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hmmm.... it's been a couple months, so I thought I would update? Especially since I just had a great training session and still am feeling up about that... :

Moving downs - I still need to wean off of excessive body language (I shuffle my feet and loom over him as I tell him down), but he is now dropping down quickly while I take a couple steps and circle. 

I got there by practicing the drop on hand signal across the room - a lot. 
And also drop on verbal command while across the room - a lot. 

I usually say "Down-Wait" before continuing around him and that seems to work. 

We are still nowhere near getting him to do a drop on recall... I didn't want to work on this alone before because I was afraid of it messing up his speeding bullet recall by teaching it wrong. At least whenever that happens, the hand signals are going to be in place. 

His moving stands are awesome. I went back and retaught the kickback stand as foundation for this. And then used treats to stop him long enough to introduce the "stand-wait". He's now doing the "stand-wait" without treats or without me actually touching his nose to stop the forward motion. 

This is fun.


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