# Could an 80# dog kill a deer?



## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

My dh just decided to tell me that in Feb when he was skiing with Bella he heard a horrific noise that sounded like a bobcat----he came across a dying deer, Bella had blood on her face. My dh thought Bella had killed the deer, I said I think the bobcat did it---my question is---could a dog take down a deer w/o being kicked? Is Bella really capable of killing something? Have any of you had your dog kill another animal?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes, my dogs have killed squirrels, mice and pheasants. Probably other animals as well.

I would not think an 80# golden could take down a deer by himself, but possibly if it was hurt already? My dogs will chase deer sometimes, but when we came upon a deer nest (is that the right term?), all 3 dogs were very gentle with the fawn - actually I don't think they even touched the baby ... they seemed to go into a curious and protective mode


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## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

Bella does chase deer and it make me furious--I wish I knew how to stop her from doing that---my husband is ready to find another home for Bella if she doesn't learn to stop chasing the helpless deer.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Young Deer may be cute, but adults ain't so ****** helpless  They, in fact, can be extremely dangerous if they want to be.

I would be more worried about my Golden being hurt by a Deer than the other way around.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

It's definitely possible, esp if the deer was unaware or injured. 

Deer chasing: Re-visit the recent recall threads. Work hard on a recall. Have a goal of 100 repetitions a day or some such.... call her on occasion as you go about your normal routine, as well as have specific training times where you are working on a recall past a distraction. Set it up so she absolutely CAN NOT chase deer EVER again. Any time she does, the behavior is reinforced BIG time. Use leashes, long lines, fences, etc... 

We're working on some of this now...if my dog startles a deer close by he will chase...but if they're further off he can be called even if he starts chasing.

Though....here a lot of people really want their dogs chasing deer out of yards!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

BELLA said:


> My dh just decided to tell me that in Feb when he was skiing with Bella he heard a horrific noise that sounded like a bobcat----he came across a dying deer, Bella had blood on her face. My dh thought Bella had killed the deer, I said I think the bobcat did it---my question is---could a dog take down a deer w/o being kicked? Is Bella really capable of killing something? Have any of you had your dog kill another animal?


An 80lb dog is certainly capable of taking down and killing a deer, particularly in snow where the dog has the advantage. 

If your dog is chasing deer it is a habit that you want to put a stop to immediately. Most states (including MI) allow dogs chasing deer to be shot on sight, so this is a life threatening behaviour and you need to treat it as such.


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## Capehank (Aug 3, 2005)

Swampcollie said:


> An 80lb dog is certainly capable of taking down and killing a deer, particularly in snow where the dog has the advantage.
> 
> If your dog is chasing deer it is a habit that you want to put a stop to immediately. Most states (including MI) allow dogs chasing deer to be shot on sight, so this is a life threatening behaviour and you need to treat it as such.


 
I totally agree. Train Bella to stop chasing the deer.


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## T Man (Mar 18, 2010)

Living where I live we have a lot of coyotes, they can take down deer but if it is just one coyote it will usually have to follow/chase the deer for quite a while until the deer is completely exhausted and can't run any longer. Deep snow is also not good for deer for this reason. As for a domesticated dog that doesn't have to hunt for its food, not sure myself but as others have posted it is quite common for them to go after smaller animals such as squirrels, gophers, etc.

I would agree that for the most part the dog would have more to worry about than the deer, I would think a broken jaw or worse would be a very realistic scenario if the deer gets a kick or two in.


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## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

Hey I know that deer chasing is not a good thing. I get that. I hate it that she does it but you have to remember that she is a retriever and chasing animals is what they do. I wish I could train her to come evertime I call her--she comes to me whenever there is no distraction but if she spots a squirrel, chipmunk, turkey--deer--off she goes. I am going back to the shock collar--thats the only thing that works. I swear this will be my last dog--I am just too old to have a dog that has the potential to kill.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

BELLA said:


> Hey I know that deer chasing is not a good thing. I get that. I hate it that she does it but you have to remember that she is a retriever and chasing animals is what they do. I wish I could train her to come evertime I call her--she comes to me whenever there is no distraction but if she spots a squirrel, chipmunk, turkey--deer--off she goes. I am going back to the shock collar--thats the only thing that works. I swear this will be my last dog--I am just too old to have a dog that has the potential to kill.


As others have mentioned, the recall is the key. While I mentioned that my dogs will occassionally chase deer, they turn and come cack when I call them...


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## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

I have to add that I could be standing with a tasty steak and even that would not bring Bella back from the chase---I swear I think she is part wolf. Whats odd is that she can be soo gentle with the kids, our cats, but she can change in a nanosecond. 
I really don;t think she brought the deer down, I think it was attacked by a bobcat and Bella came across the deer.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

I have a completely fenced in yard but the occasional rabbit will get in and Sage has killed 2. I make a point to let Taz and Sydney out first now, because I don't think either of them would kill it, just scare it enough to run away, then Sage can't get it. I think Sage would probably attack anything unknown that came in her yard, be it bunnies, squirrels, cats, etc.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

I'd be very careful as mentioned deer can be very dangerous. I had a close friend who's 85 lb male golden was killed by a deer.

My neighbor's dog, a smaller blue heeler mix, recently took after one and next thing she knew her dog came running back with the deer chasing it.

When those hoofs start flying they can do some real damage.

Keeping the dog on a lead or some serious recall training sounds like it might be a good idea.

The e collar might work but then you have to deal with always having to it have it available, keeping it charged and the possibility of harming the dog if not used correctly.

I like the idea of having a very reliable recall which will always be at your disposal.

You might want to check out these recent threads on recall as Red Dog mentioned.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=76103

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/...t=total+recall

Good Luck,

Pete


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

The purpose of recall training is not to have your dog come if you wave a steak. It's to build value for coming back to you, initially with no/low distractions and gradually increasing them in controlled settings. It sounds like you haven't done that part yet.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I empathize with having a dog with a strong prey drive. Some people think Ranger's crossed with a hound the way he gets on the scent of prey animals and will go after them. We're still working on the recall past major distractions, which in Ranger's case are rabbits. He'll give up chasing a squirrel to come to me but I know he wouldn't if it was a rabbit. Knowing that, I never give him the chance to NOT come when there's a rabbit nearby. He's always on leash if there are rabbits about (and they're always around my neighbourhood) and we work on our recall at that point. It's awful - I call him, he half comes while looking over his shoulder and is all distracted...but at least when he reaches me I can reward. I'd find a long leash for your dog and work on your recall and build up to recalling when there's deer in sight. As soon as she gets to ignore your command and chase deer, she's just self-rewarded herself for ignoring you.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> The purpose of recall training is not to have your dog come if you wave a steak. It's to build value for coming back to you, initially with no/low distractions and gradually increasing them in controlled settings. It sounds like you haven't done that part yet.


Seriously. Training solid recall is about building a _habit_, not about outbidding a distraction. If your dog is drivey enough, an e-collar might not stop him either. You have to train a habit that's stronger than the distraction.

I've never had a dog that would give up a chase in favor of a food bribe, but my dogs (except for Jax, who's still developing good habits) will give up a chase and return to my whistle, and even when I happen to be holding treats, I hide them so they don't know whether or not food will be part of the reward.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there about the role of food rewards in training a positive recall.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

tippykayak - I agree with you 100%. At this stage in Ranger's training, I don't call him past a distraction unless I know I can make him come to me no matter what (long leash) and the treat is a bonus if I happen to have one. I'm not going to call him past a rabbit and hope he's going to listen because I'm holding a hotdog. 

It was actually one of your posts about forming habits in reference to recall that made me start practicing doing sporadic recalls during the day just to build the base of listening to the recall. I forget what post it was exactly, but it was a great one.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I think that a couple of years ago we had a discussion on Bella's breed and many came up with a sight hound mixed with Golden. Many sight hounds will see something and take off, that's why a lot of them cannot be off leash at all. It's the same way with a lot of the scent hounds. Regardless of how well trained they are, that is one area where they seem to lose control.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

fostermom said:


> I think that a couple of years ago we had a discussion on Bella's breed and many came up with a sight hound mixed with Golden. Many sight hounds will see something and take off, that's why a lot of them cannot be off leash at all. It's the same way with a lot of the scent hounds. Regardless of how well trained they are, that is one area where they seem to lose control.


Ahhh...I forgot Bella wasn't a full Golden. I've heard about that with sight hounds. Perhaps there is no habit that can be built that can beat the sight hound instinct. It's one of the reasons I have Goldens instead of another breed: I want to be able to walk in the woods off-lead and have a high degree of reliability in recalling them.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ranger said:


> tippykayak - I agree with you 100%. At this stage in Ranger's training, I don't call him past a distraction unless I know I can make him come to me no matter what (long leash) and the treat is a bonus if I happen to have one. I'm not going to call him past a rabbit and hope he's going to listen because I'm holding a hotdog.
> 
> It was actually one of your posts about forming habits in reference to recall that made me start practicing doing sporadic recalls during the day just to build the base of listening to the recall. I forget what post it was exactly, but it was a great one.


Thanks! I've had a whole lot of success with a positive reinforcement, habit-building method. And Jax isn't quite there, so I don't test his recall when there's even a 5% chance I'll be blown off. Each failed repetition undermines the habit, and you need 10-100 successful repetitions to repair the damage done by each failure.

And I also believe that using food as a motivator or lure has limited applications, since it can teach the dog to obey the treat, not the trainer. You want your dog to come to YOU, and the treat can be one of many reinforcers AFTER the behavior is successfully performed.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Seriously. Training solid recall is about building a _habit_, not about outbidding a distraction. If your dog is drivey enough, an e-collar might not stop him either. You have to train a habit that's stronger than the distraction.
> 
> I've never had a dog that would give up a chase in favor of a food bribe, but my dogs (except for Jax, who's still developing good habits) will give up a chase and return to my whistle, and even when I happen to be holding treats, I hide them so they don't know whether or not food will be part of the reward.
> 
> I think there are a lot of misconceptions out there about the role of food rewards in training a positive recall.


Tippy I don't understand this concept of a bribe vs. reward? It seems to me there's no difference - after all a big part of the reward is the high value treat and thus is motivation for the dog to come. Certainly if you're trying to get your dog to come by hanging onto a big piece of steak - that's a bribe and not very effective. But aren't you bribing the dog with the high possibility of a treat once he comes? Maybe this is just a case of semantics'?

Pete


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

fostermom said:


> I think that a couple of years ago we had a discussion on Bella's breed and many came up with a sight hound mixed with Golden. Many sight hounds will see something and take off, that's why a lot of them cannot be off leash at all. It's the same way with a lot of the scent hounds. Regardless of how well trained they are, that is one area where they seem to lose control.


 
That's interesting, this new DVD I just picked up on Really Reliable Recall Leslie Nelson points out that scent hounds and other Northern breeds unlike retrievers were not breed for recall - that wasn't part of their job so it's not in their makeup. But she says it's still very possible to train total recall in these breeds it's just a bigger adventure.

Pete


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> Tippy I don't understand this concept of a bribe vs. reward? It seems to me there's no difference - after all a big part of the reward is the high value treat and thus is motivation for the dog to come. Certainly if you're trying to get your dog to come by hanging onto a big piece of steak - that's a bribe and not very effective. But aren't you bribing the dog with the high possibility of a treat once he comes? Maybe this is just a case of semantics'?
> 
> Pete


Definitely a case of semantics. I use the word "bribe" to describe the use of a treat to motivate the behavior. It's when you're basically saying, "I have a treat! You can have it if you come!" I see many people doing this kind of thing and thinking they're positively training. What they're really doing is asking the dog to calculate whether the treat is more desirable than the distraction. If the distraction is truly awesome or if the dog isn't a foodie, then it just doesn't work.

I'm using the term "reward" to describe the use of a treat to reinforce a behavior that's being offered. It's hidden until AFTER the behavior is performed, and then it's produced during the praise for the correct behavior. Higher value means higher reinforcement power. Ideally, the dog doesn't know where the treat comes from or if it's coming at all.

For example, now that Jax knows how to come, I'm working on proofing the behavior against higher and higher level distractions. He NEVER knows if he'll get a treat or even if I'm holding one. I gauge the distraction (or sometimes set it up in a controlled situation), and if I believe he'll come, I'll call. If he wheels right around and runs back to me, he gets a "great job," and all kinds of praise. He may also (and this is random, so far as he knows) get a treat or a whole series of treats, one after the other, along with the praise party.

I try to avoid situations entirely in which I call and he doesn't come. That's a training disaster, and it would be my fault, not his.

Since he's a young dog and 95% reliable already, we're at the stage of proofing with controlled distractions. If he were older and/or less reliable, I might use a long lead so I could work in a situation where he's 80% likely to come and I could "pop" the collar if he blew off his command. The idea is not to punish him for not coming or to enforce my authority, but rather to interrupt and prevent him from following through on ignoring.

Reinforce the behavior you want. Prevent the behavior you don't, and prevent a followthrough on the undesired behavior if you can't prevent him from starting it. Once you have a behavior going, move to sporadic but generous rewards. Sporadic food is actually more powerful than a consistent reward.

You can use food as a lure when you're introducing behavior. You can put EZ cheese on the scary section of an agility obstacle to help the dog try it for the first time (thanks to Sunrise for that idea), or you can show a young pup a treat and then move it towards the dog and up to help teach him the motion of a sit. Stuff like that is great. BUT, you have to be super careful not to let it become the only motivator for the behavior. As soon as the dog understands the behavior or gets used to the task, treats need to become reinforcers, not motivators.

So that's a long-winded way of explaining the distinction I'm making between "bribe" and "reward." I don't care what the words are, but I think it's a very important distinction for good positive training.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> That's interesting, this new DVD I just picked up on Really Reliable Recall Leslie Nelson points out that scent hounds and other Northern breeds unlike retrievers were not breed for recall - that wasn't part of their job so it's not in their makeup. But she says it's still very possible to train total recall in these breeds it's just a bigger adventure.
> 
> Pete


That's cool. I have friends who are thinking about getting a Beagle, and I've heard that their noses can overpower their training, no matter what. I'm encouraged to hear that you can train a habit more powerful than the nose. I believe that positive reinforcement is that powerful, but having little experience with scent hounds, I was worried.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

See, the whole sight hound thing is what worries me - Ranger locks onto movement blocks away and is so incredibly intent on it. I've had a few people tell me they think he might be part hound, but I don't want to use that as an excuse for his recall not being as good as I can get it. Will he ever have 100% recall? I don't know, but I'm going to keep working on it and in the meantime take precaution when he's off leash in areas with things for him to chase.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

BELLA said:


> Bella does chase deer and it make me furious--I wish I knew how to stop her from doing that---my husband is ready to find another home for Bella if she doesn't learn to stop chasing the helpless deer.


Helpless???, hardly. Have you ever seen a buck during rutting season? Or a doe with young in tow? I think I'd take my chances with a bobcat. Deer are very strong and can be dangerous. I'm afraid to walk across our fields at night because there are so many. Actually I really don't like walking towards a group during the day. I'd be more worried about my dog being injured. I doubt a golden could ever catch a healthy deer much less take it down.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Definitely a case of semantics. I use the word "bribe" to describe the use of a treat to motivate the behavior. It's when you're basically saying, "I have a treat! You can have it if you come!" I see many people doing this kind of thing and thinking they're positively training. What they're really doing is asking the dog to calculate whether the treat is more desirable than the distraction. If the distraction is truly awesome or if the dog isn't a foodie, then it just doesn't work.
> 
> I'm using the term "reward" to describe the use of a treat to reinforce a behavior that's being offered. It's hidden until AFTER the behavior is performed, and then it's produced during the praise for the correct behavior. Higher value means higher reinforcement power. Ideally, the dog doesn't know where the treat comes from or if it's coming at all.
> 
> ...


Thanks Tippy...when you do have to pop the collar do you still reward the dog when he comes in?


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Willow52 said:


> Helpless???, hardly. Have you ever seen a buck during rutting season? Or a doe with young in tow? I think I'd take my chances with a bobcat. Deer are very strong and can be dangerous. I'm afraid to walk across our fields at night because there are so many. Actually I really don't like walking towards a group during the day. I'd be more worried about my dog being injured. I doubt a golden could ever catch a healthy deer much less take it down.


You hit the nail on the head there Willows52!!!!

And you never know when you're going to run into them particularly when you're out in the woods with limited visibility. That's why recall is so important!

Pete


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I know you've had issues with Bella's listening to you before. I do think it's the 'other' in her mix that is the culprit. My sister's beagle was the best behaved dog in the world...until she caught a rabbit's scent, then nothing could get distract her from it. For this reason, she was rarely off lead.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> Thanks Tippy...when you do have to pop the collar do you still reward the dog when he comes in?


Yeah. Always reward successful behavior with at least praise, even if you had to interrupt. You want to create the equation that running towards you = awesome. Once he starts doing the right thing, it's just as good as if he did it exactly right.

And remember, "popping" is really just jingling the tags; you're using the minimum force necessary to interrupt the dog's attention. You're not "punishing" noncompliance.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

One thing to be really careful of... longlines and leashes are great...to keep your dog from getting away and getting hurt. But I see way too many students that call a dog and then "reel him in" and feed a treat. A small number of dogs learn this way. A small number learn to brace themselves and try to move away when they get called, but a big number learn to tell the difference between when the lead is on and when it's off... 

If a dog does not come when I call...I make a note and do training for that scenario. If I don't think my dog will come...I do "silly puppy talk" "Heeeeereeee doggy, let's go see!" and do NOT use my "special and sacred" cues. l


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## ggd (Apr 8, 2009)

I would be more worried about a deer hurting the dog if it comes to a fight unless the dog ran the deer to ground which is hard to do as most dogs will give out before an unhurt deer.

Good info on recall it’s good to know I am headed in the right direction anyway.

So most likely the deer was hurt and mostly down when your pup got to it. I would be worried about my pup being hurt during the chase by the environment or someone. That and getting lost.

 One old hunters trick I have see used if someone would lose a dog during a hunt was for the owner to remove their coat and lay it down where they put the dogs in (or the last place you were together for non hutting situations) and while they were looking keep checking back to the spot the coat is. Many times as a kid hunting we would find the missing pup laying on the coat waiting for us.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

RedDogs said:


> If a dog does not come when I call...I make a note and do training for that scenario. If I don't think my dog will come...I do "silly puppy talk" "Heeeeereeee doggy, let's go see!" and do NOT use my "special and sacred" cues. l


I do the same thing. When I had Danny at agility class in a fenced in yard, some dummy opened the gate and left it wide open while he went to get a chair to sit in. Danny made a break for it. Now, Danny isn't going to run away, but there was a road at the end of the driveway and several people and dogs outside the fenced area that he wanted to visit. I ran outside of the gate, squatted down and did my "puppy" call, "Danny, Danny, Danny, right here!" in a high pitched voice. He spun around and came barreling back to me. I can guarantee under those circumstances if I had just called, "Danny, come!" he would have blown me off.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

"Ya Wanna Cookie" usually works for me 



RedDogs said:


> One thing to be really careful of... longlines and leashes are great...to keep your dog from getting away and getting hurt. But I see way too many students that call a dog and then "reel him in" and feed a treat. A small number of dogs learn this way. A small number learn to brace themselves and try to move away when they get called, but a big number learn to tell the difference between when the lead is on and when it's off...
> 
> If a dog does not come when I call...I make a note and do training for that scenario. If I don't think my dog will come...I do "silly puppy talk" "Heeeeereeee doggy, let's go see!" and do NOT use my "special and sacred" cues. l


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