# Dealing with bad behaviour, either by action or by threat



## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Of the two options, I'd say #1 is the most fair to the dog (though I doubt you need more than a few minutes time out to make your point). I doubt that most dogs would learn to associate a word with a threat of the corresponding punishment! I also wouldn't necessarily give him three "nos" to stop the behavior. No should mean no every time (dogs do best when rules and consequences are clear and consistent). But to be honest, a better option would be rather than "punishing" your dog (by verbal or physical correction) for doing something "wrong" that you instead ask for an alternate behavior that he can then be rewarded for.

For example, if your dog is jumping on a guest, tell him to sit (and reward him for complying). Or train (outside of the exciting situation) a "go to place" behavior, where he can be rewarded for staying in his place rather than mugging the guest.

If you can be more specific of the type or types of behaviors you are trying to address we can probably give you a more specific answer to your question or some alternate training advice.


----------



## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Lisa beat me to it but I agree with her. Have you tried saying No one time and then making him sit and stay. I like the method where you teach them what you want them to do instead of just telling him no. if he doesn't have a reliable sit command I would work hard on that and work on increasing time he will stay in the sit and even hold it when you step out of sight. That way he is learning self control and patience. Until you can get that going well, I would leave a short leash on him and force a sit or a go to your place even if that is the crate.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> If you can be more specific of the type or types of behaviors you are trying to address we can probably give you a more specific answer to your question or some alternate training advice.


Sure.

In our "pack", but in our doggo's mind: i'm Alpha, then comes doggo and my missus is 3rd. Now, we are doing obedience classes with him (every Monday) and i let her to do all the classes with our doggo, while i'm sitting on the sidelines and only helping out when needed (e.g doggo pulls loose from her during obedience class, since there are other dogs as well, and i'll run after doggo).

Now, the bad behavior our doggo does (has since puppyhood), is jumping up and/or play nipping hands. At home, my missus has done the daily obedience tasks with our doggo, that we learnt from obedience class and as long as our doggo gets treats for tasks, doggo behaves good. But once the treats run out and tasks are complete, doggo gets (overly) excited and starts to jump, hump and play bite her hands (sometimes her feet). <- Latter is unacceptable behavior.

In past, our doggo did the play bite with me as well, but i was firm and put him into the pen, every time. And from time-to-time, i have to remind our doggo who is the boss. Nowadays, it helps when i grab our doggo from the loose skin at his shoulders (the same spot where momma dog carries her pups). And our doggo instantly plants to the ground, stopping the bad behavior.
Now, my missus isn't as flexible as i am and for her, bending down to ground or squating is nigh-impossible. So, for her, it would be better to lead doggo to pen.

Here, i think that, with doggos, bad behavior should be remedied with action (putting dog to pen), rather than threatening dog with words. Now, with human child, with far more developed brain, sure, you can threat a child not to do things (e.g if you behave badly, i will take a toy away from you). But dogs, IMO, respond better to actual action. And that action also implants better into their small memory pool.

Edit:
When doggo does the play nipping with my missus and when i enter the room, doggo stops the bad behavior. Now, this is good. However, this would lead into a situation where doggo knows that when i'm around, he needs to behave good but once i'm gone, he can do bad things. <- This is not our goal, since my missus should be able to spend time with our doggo without a kerfuffle even when i'm not around.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

So.... you are making the "pen" the punishment place? Is that what you want to do?

My take is I would not do either of the options you mention for various reasons.

1. I don't have a crate set up here at the house, but let's pretend I do. I would want that place to be a positive place. I'm not yelling at my dog, grabbing him by the collar, and hauling him into his crate as punishment. Only result is my dog will not like being crated - and speaking as somebody who uses crates at shows and needs dogs to quickly go in without any aversion or upset, I would not use crates in this fashion.

2. If my dog is acting up, getting mouthy/jumpy/etc.... I'd literally assume he has to go outside for potty and send him outside. Even if they don't have to go potty, going outside and running around playing usually gets them sorted out. Dogs sometimes do things for a reason and are not just acting up. Other thing is sending the dogs outside to play when they are acting up, it reinforces my intention that my dogs be calm and settled in the house, even when they are young.

3. Oh and the third thing, fwiw. Grab a dog by the skin and haul him around enough over every little thing and there is a risk that you will create a hand shy dog. If you have a sweet dog, that's going to be one who crunches to the ground in a panic when hands reach for him. If you have a fear aggressive dog though, that will be a dog flipping around and attacking the approaching threat (your hands). <= There are reasons and situations where a very serious correction is necessary to get through to a dog. But get too quick and casual with serious corrections and you have an abused dog who will react one way or another and that is a reflection on you.

4. Here's one more note.  If you ever have had an established "dog pack" with multiple dogs who have an established totem pole - you would know as I do that the boss dog is not the one who is constantly correcting, roaring, etc. These are dogs who just need to LOOK at the other dogs and they back down. If they must correct, they do it without noise or excessive aggression.


----------



## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Agree — I would not make a dog’s crate a punishment place. That’s his safe place for rest/comfort.

Also, agree about the hand as punishment. Someone once told me to thump Logan on his nose when he was excitement barking upon entering new places. Why would I want my dog to think of my hand as something to dodge? Not happening.

I’d make sure the dog is getting plenty of exercise and mental stimulation. Work on impulse control exercises and make sure regular obedience training is taking place.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

Megora said:


> So.... you are making the "pen" the punishment place? Is that what you want to do?


Pen isn't only for punishment, it is also for discipline. E.g we do alone training in the pen. And he also gets part of his meal in the pen as well.



Megora said:


> 1. I don't have a crate set up here at the house, but let's pretend I do. I would want that place to be a positive place. I'm not yelling at my dog, grabbing him by the collar, and hauling him into his crate as punishment. Only result is my dog will not like being crated - and speaking as somebody who uses crates at shows and needs dogs to quickly go in without any aversion or upset, I would not use crates in this fashion.


Pen:









Crate:










We have both. (The exact ones as on images.)

Crate is for sleeping and treats (only positive), pen is for time outs and waiting (when we leave home), so, a mixed bag.



Megora said:


> 2. If my dog is acting up, getting mouthy/jumpy/etc.... I'd literally assume he has to go outside for potty and send him outside. Even if they don't have to go potty, going outside and running around playing usually gets them sorted out. Dogs sometimes do things for a reason and are not just acting up. Other thing is sending the dogs outside to play when they are acting up, it reinforces my intention that my dogs be calm and settled in the house, even when they are young.


We live in an apartment complex and we can not let our dog "out" that easily. Moreover, according to our Animal Protection Act,



> Persons keeping pets must comply with the following:
> 
> 
> Ensure supervision of their cat or dog when on private property or in a public place. Keep their pet on a leash and use a dog muzzle, if necessary.
> ...


Meaning that our doggo cannot be off leash. Only in dog parks. And closest one is 15 mins drive away.



Megora said:


> 3. Oh and the third thing, fwiw. Grab a dog by the skin and haul him around enough over every little thing and there is a risk that you will create a hand shy dog. If you have a sweet dog, that's going to be one who crunches to the ground in a panic when hands reach for him. If you have a fear aggressive dog though, that will be a dog flipping around and attacking the approaching threat (your hands). <= There are reasons and situations where a very serious correction is necessary to get through to a dog. But get too quick and casual with serious corrections and you have an abused dog who will react one way or another and that is a reflection on you.


I'm not hauling my doggo anywhere when i grab him from the same spot, momma dogs grab their pups. I stand in place and let our doggo to "surrender" to me. And that too, only as a last resort move.

You may accuse me of intimidation, but the truth is, that show of force is preferable to use of force. Most GRs are easy going and will get by with far less forms of punishment (say NO, take toy away, stiffen yourself up etc). When show of force isn't enough to maintain order, sometimes you have to settle for the real thing.



diane0905 said:


> I’d make sure the dog is getting plenty of exercise and mental stimulation. Work on impulse control exercises and make sure regular obedience training is taking place.


He does get all of it, but breeder made a mistake by giving us, 1st time dog owners, a high-energy dog (mostly 1s and 2s in Volhard’s puppy aptitude test). Now for the most part, we can manage with him and he is a good boy, but there are still some aspects that aren't acceptable in his behavior. And yes, we are doing regular obedience training with him, on daily basis. To name the few:

He always must sit and make eye contact, before we lower his food bowl to him.
He always must sit and wait, before walking through doorways, after we say the command "Come". And he is the last one to walk through the doorway.
He always must sit and wait when we put leash on him, or when arriving home, taking leash away.
On arrival at home, he must wait until we take our shoes off, before we take his leash off.
Pulling on the leash = dead stop (at which point he sits), and moving forwards is only with command "Come" and with slack in leash. Another pull on the leash = another dead stop. Etc.

Of course, there are more but i think you guys get the idea.


----------



## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

Aside from what Kate mentioned about creating a hand shy dog, I know a few dogs that ended up being reactive with the collar grabbing and actually lash out when their collars are grabbed (even to the extent of biting the owners…) and they have been forcefully hauled off somewhere for punishment. I know you aren’t rolling him, but pinning him down and wanting him to ‘surrender’ is a pretty outdated method of training.

Maybe instead of looking at what corrective actions you can take to ‘maintain order’, find out what is causing him to ‘behave badly’ as well and preventive actions instead? often training and exercise are the best solutions to ‘misbehaving’ dogs! It sounds like you have a good routine type training going, but it might benefit to do shorter training sessions within the day, as well. Teaching him ‘place’, doing trick training, getting him to use his brain throughout the day might help.


----------



## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

There may be some helpful food for thought in this podcast:


----------



## GOAussies (Dec 3, 2021)

My cousin has a black Lab that has the same problem that your golden retriever has: jumping up in over-excitement and play biting hands. She has family members who admitted to wrestling with him and playing rough with him when he was a puppy. Their rough play combined with their lack of discipline in this area has led to a lifelong problem. He's now 4 years old and to this day he thinks it's an acceptable greeting to offer guests by jumping on them and chomping on their arms. 

I hate to say this, but because they've let this slide for so long, he's now a huge liability risk to children. He'd never mean to harm a child, but for the sake of safety, I think the only way my cousin will be able to be sure that everything will be okay when he's around children is by keeping him on a leash AND putting a muzzle on him.

A show of force vs the real thing is not necessary. Dogs view the world in terms of black and white; something that's good is always good, and something that's bad always leads to bad consequences.

When my cousin's Labrador is excited to see me and begins running towards me, I ignore him. I turn my back to him, keep walking, and refuse to look at him or talk to him. He trots away from me pretty quickly because I've changed the conditions he incurs when he jumps on me.

Some other things you can try: Whenever one of you or a guest comes into the house, have one person keep the dog on a leash. The person holding the dog should lower the leash to the ground and step on it so that there's just enough slack for the dog to try to jump up unsuccessfully. The dog will end up giving himself a collar correction with the leash.

Also, when you know you're expecting company, take your dog out for a run before your guests arrive. A tired dog is far less likely to be jumpy!

Yes, that is the problem with treat training dogs. Sometimes they will only behave as long as treats are around. Check out the YouTube channel Dreamgaits. I don't agree with all her training methods, but for the most part, I appreciate that she teaches her viewers how to enforce discipline with a dog without being cruel. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXDFOVyYl1vNMeDNCdt4z7w/videos


----------



## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

Aeacus said:


> I'm not hauling my doggo anywhere when i grab him from the same spot, momma dogs grab their pups. I stand in place and let our doggo to "surrender" to me. And that too, only as a last resort move.


Except you are not the momma dog. You are a human.


----------



## AShepherd1215 (8 mo ago)

If you say ‘No’ 3 times before hauling your dog off to the crate if he doesn’t listen, then the dog has learned 3 times that they can ignore the word ‘No’ and nothing happens. Then after the fourth ‘No’, you are grabbing the dog and hauling him into the pen and all you’ve accomplished is creating a confused dog who doesn’t understand why he just got yanked over to the pen. 

Correct the bad behavior, redirect the dog to the desired behavior, and then praise the desired behavior. If the dog nips, use your correction and remove your attention. When the dog backs off, provide a toy that’s appropriate for chewing and then praise the dog for playing with the toy. If the dog jumps, use your correction and deny the dog attention. The dog may naturally sit or you can command a sit, and then praise when that behavior of sitting is given.

Both you and the missus need to follow this training method with your dog. The dog should never be allowed to nip or be mouthy with a person and will not understand why it’s okay to chew on the missus but not a small child.


----------



## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

It generally works a lot better to tell the dog what you want him to do, instead of just yelling "NO!" Not that we all don't give in to that human default behavior from time to time. 

Say, "No, sit!" If he does not sit ON THE FIRST COMMAND!!!!! calmly reach for his collar, tug up on collar, push on rump, and say "Good boy" Do not lunge or grab for his collar. If he's too fast, let him drag a short leash without a loop on the end (so it doesn't snag on things). With my jumpy, mouthy, PIA 16-month old, I will often make him sit while I count backwards from 10. "Ten, nine, eight, etc.". Then I release him, but if he starts leaping around like a maniac again, he has to sit and wait again. Repeat until he calms down. 

For the mouthiness, if often helps to give the dog something he likes to carry, which inspires many dogs to "talk" about what they're carrying. So, he can carry his toy and moan and growl with happiness while you tell him what a good boy he is. 

If you just keep telling him "no" without telling him what you want him to do, he is likely to become even more frantic. 

Tons of directed exercise will also help in the long run.


----------



## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Aeacus said:


> Pen isn't only for punishment, it is also for discipline. E.g we do alone training in the pen. And he also gets part of his meal in the pen as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You aren't the "alpha", and your dog doesn't see you as one either. "Alpha theory" is old, debunked nonsense peddled mostly by charlatans. What you're doing currently is going to create a dog that tolerates you (at best) and hates you at worst. You may well end up with a reactive dog, or a dog who decides that he will just try to get away from you at any opportunity he can. I can't imagine wanting that outcome. I would find a local trainer that you can work with in person that can teach you proper training methods that combine positive training with corrective training as needed.

I suggest you immediately find good trainer to work with before this all goes sideways and things get worse/harder.

ETA: If you're unhappy with the puppy the breeder picked, take it back to the breeder. There is still time for the breeder to rehome the puppy to a home that wants a highly active dog. Also note that MOST goldens are highly active dogs. They are not "couch potatoes." They are a hunting breed that requires a lot of exercise, more than potty trips outside and occasional walks. So you're going to have to step up the amount of exercise if you want to keep the dog and have it be a pleasant to live with family member. Join a local dog club, get involved in dog sports, a golden needs that. You may come to love it too.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

Ffcmm said:


> but pinning him down


Me grabbing his skin and he then planting himself to the ground, isn't me pinning him down. Unless the meaning of "pinning down" has changed in the past few days.



Ffcmm said:


> It sounds like you have a good routine type training going, but it might benefit to do shorter training sessions within the day, as well. Teaching him ‘place’, doing trick training, getting him to use his brain throughout the day might help.


We actually do all that daily. We currently are training "sit" or "lay down" + "wait", so that we can step away from him (few steps at current moment), so that he won't get up and follow us at an instant.

And we also have plethora of treat dispenser toys for him, which are also used during his meals. So, he can use his brain as well.



pawsnpaca said:


> There may be some helpful food for thought in this podcast:


The thing before the thing. That, i know of. Now, with our issue, either we can not avoid the tigger (e.g treats ran out) or there isn't any trigger, that we can acknowledge (read "the incident" below).



GOAussies said:


> jumping up in over-excitement and play biting hands.


Our doggo doesn't jump on and/or bite our guests or strangers outside. Only us, namely my missus. Around children, he is well behaved but we monitor him constantly, just in case.

Now, the jump/chomp has never been okay with us, and for the most of the times, he won't do it either. But occasionally, he does it and it isn't pretty. I'm getting a feeling that maybe, perhaps, doggo still tests us and wants to see if he can get away doing this. (He is 13 mo, 1w old and mindset would be teen.)

Just today, when outside walk was about to finish, i had an "incident" with him.
Namely, when we were closing in to our front door, during normal walk (slack in leash), he suddenly started to grab the leash and tried to play tug-of-war with me. I completely ignored him and walked forwards, close to our front door. Doggo did follow me with slacked leash while still trying to get good grip on the leash with his teeth. Once he realized that he can't get good grip on the leash, he started to jump up on me, from behind, mid walk. I ignored him again and walked forwards. Then, he started to jump and bite me from the behind. Once he bit me from my behind (arse), that was when i lost it. Since i don't care who's dog it is, i will not let myself be mauled by a dog. So, i turned around, grabbed from the shoulder area. Then, doggo realized that what he did, was not fine and laid down to the ground. With a stern voice, i told him "No" and "It was painful."
This stopped the whatever "play" he was thinking about doing with me. I released my hand, stood up and he sat up. After which we continued on as normal, like nothing happened. He behaved well, sitting at front door, waiting until i opened the door, then came in when i tasked him. Etc, normal good behavior.



Taz Monkey said:


> Except you are not the momma dog. You are a human.


Yes, but you can not act with a dog like you act with human child. E.g asking nicely from a dog, if doggo wants this or that. Instead, you say a command and dog must follow it.



AShepherd1215 said:


> If the dog nips, use your correction and remove your attention.


Removing attention doesn't work. He will jump and bite regardless if you're facing him, facing away from him or even walking away from him. Speaking of backstory, i wrote this reply when our doggo was 6 months old,
link: Dog bite

From there, you all can see what we've tried and what worked and what didn't.



AShepherd1215 said:


> Correct the bad behavior, redirect the dog to the desired behavior, and then praise the desired behavior.


Redirect doesn't work, since we've tried it countless of times. When our doggo is in that "state", he does not listen commands. At best, 5% of commands actually register in his brain. <- This is so with all dogs IMO. E.g you can not train a dog, when dog is in the overly excited state. With this, only way forward is to calm the brain down, so that ears "open" again.



PalouseDogs said:


> Say, "No, sit!" If he does not sit ON THE FIRST COMMAND!!!!! calmly reach for his collar, tug up on collar, push on rump, and say "Good boy" Do not lunge or grab for his collar. If he's too fast, let him drag a short leash without a loop on the end (so it doesn't snag on things). With my jumpy, mouthy, PIA 16-month old, I will often make him sit while I count backwards from 10. "Ten, nine, eight, etc.". Then I release him, but if he starts leaping around like a maniac again, he has to sit and wait again. Repeat until he calms down.


A similar method we've tried when out of the walks and he gets "jumpy". Though, with a difference that during the waiting period, we have to step on a leash, so that he can't jump up on us. But often, when we've waited far more than dozens of seconds (more like few mins) and we like to move along, removing foot from the leash often leads him jumping up on us again. Essentially, he can wait it out (then again, we've done a lot of alone training with him and he has good deal of patience). And getting back to the "calming position" isn't easy when doggo is jumping up and biting us.
Quite a few times, i've gotten a call form my missus, when she is out on a walk, that she can not handle the dog and i've went to her rescue.



PalouseDogs said:


> For the mouthiness, if often helps to give the dog something he likes to carry, which inspires many dogs to "talk" about what they're carrying. So, he can carry his toy and moan and growl with happiness while you tell him what a good boy he is.


I know that many GRs have favorite toy (or any toy) they like to carry around and show everyone. Now, ours don't have this trait. Sure, he does carry toys in his mouth but there is no toy he'd carry for his own comfort. When he carries a toy, then it is for bringing the toy to us, so that we'd play with him (or when retrieving thrown toy back to us).
We also have several chew bones for him, he likes to chew on. Oh, we rotate his toys daily, giving him 3-5 toys per day (so that he won't get bored of his toys).



Hildae said:


> I suggest you immediately find good trainer to work with before this all goes sideways and things get worse/harder.


Compared to the puppyhood, things have improved, vastly. For the most of the times, our doggo behaves very well. Only the occasional jumping up and play biting is the only issue we have with him.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> For consistency sake (if anything), only one of the two should be used, right?


I've never used either one and I don't threaten my dogs.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> I've never used either one


So, you only use positive reinforcement with your doggos? But how would you then deal with unwanted behavior?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> So, you only use positive reinforcement with your doggos? But how would you then deal with unwanted behavior?


I'm as positive as a trainer can be . I teach commands and good behavior. Praise obedience and correct disobedience. 

Time outs don't work, dogs don't think that way.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> I teach commands and good behavior. Praise obedience and correct disobedience.


Well, we do all 4 with our doggo as well. But the elephant in the room, or most controversial of the 4, is how? to correct disobedience.

There are so many different suggestions out there (or even here, in my topic) on how to do it. Even the topic began with the very same question, where i described two "how"s and asked which should be used. I even linked one of my earlier replies within GR forums, where i've listed several "how"s with the results as well. Now, specific task that works with dog X may not work with dog Z. So, it usually comes down to trial-and-error.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> most controversial of the 4, is how? to correct disobedience.


There is nothing controversial about it how I correct my dogs.
I do it in multiple ways depending on the dog, the situation, the level of and type of disobedience. I use voice, e collar, heeling stick........ In field training simply stopping a dog on the way to a retrieve and calling him in a short distance is taken as a correction by the dog.
Timing is very important and for most things indirect pressure is the best way to correct.


Aeacus said:


> Now, specific task that works with dog X may not work with dog Z. So, it usually comes down to trial-and-error.


That's true and why reading and focusing on your dog is so important. You learn from other dogs but never compare dogs or compete with others in training.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> There is nothing controversial about it how I correct my dogs.
> I do it in multiple ways depending on the dog, the situation, the level of and type of disobedience. I use voice, e collar, heeling stick........ In field training simply stopping a dog on the way to a retrieve and calling him in a short distance is taken as a correction by the dog.
> Timing is very important and for most things indirect pressure is the best way to correct.


My previous reply wasn't intended as personal attack towards you and/or your training methods, instead, i meant the controversy about the different methods people suggest others, what to do and what not to do. Without factoring in other aspects, which you also described (dog, situation, level/type of offense, current education level etc).



SRW said:


> You learn from other dogs but never compare dogs or compete with others in training.


I don't compare our doggo to others, nor compete against other dogs. Even in obedience class, there are tasks that our doggo excels while at other tasks, another doggo does better. But i still focus on my doggo.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> My previous reply wasn't intended as personal attack towards you and/or your training methods


And I didn't take it as one.


----------



## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I use very different training methods from SRW, and from the methods I used 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, but I suspect that SRW, I and the other experienced trainers here have some training fundamentals in common. I (we?) anticipate rather than reacting. We stop unwanted behaviours before they happen, with commands, posture, movement, leash handling and/or distraction.

Develop a dog-trainer’s mindset and be continually aware of your dog’s demeanour and behaviour. Anticipate and intervene before your dog does something you don’t want. Ask for an alternative behaviour sequence, then reward profusely. Try to make it more fun, interesting and challenging for your dog to do what you want than to do what you don’t want.

Dogs don’t have consciences and don’t think in terms of good or bad. They repeat behaviours that have worked in the past. If I let my dog jump and nip, it would be likely to repeat that behaviour because it would get positive reinforcement from the Adrenalin rush, from my jump and squeal and even from the attention associated with any correction. Yes, even scruffing your dog and pulling it to its cage could have some positive aspects for your dog. Any attention is often better than no attention.

Your dog needs a lot more physical and mental exercise than it’s getting. I appreciate the difficulties, but the internet has a wealth of ideas for exercising dogs in small spaces… Nosework, hide and seek games with toys and even kiddie’s ball pens with kibble dropped in. If possible, I would advise taking your dog to at least two classes a week, with you handling it in one class and your wife handling it in the other. Between classes, my young dogs get up to a dozen lessons a day, with each lesson between 2 and 5 minutes long. Also, remember that every interaction with your dog is an opportunity for learning (good or bad).


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

GrandmaToGoldens said:


> I and the other experienced trainers here have some training fundamentals in common. I (we?) anticipate rather than reacting. We stop unwanted behaviours before they happen, with commands, posture, movement, leash handling and/or distraction.


In some instances.
Sometimes the best way to teach is to entice disobedience in a controlled situation in order to correct it.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GrandmaToGoldens said:


> but I suspect that SRW, I and the other experienced trainers here have some training fundamentals in common. I (we?) anticipate rather than reacting. We stop unwanted behaviours before they happen, with commands, posture, movement, leash handling and/or distraction.


My take is that dogs live for such a short stretch of our lives. If they are "puppies from hell".... by the time they are 7 years old, you have forgotten all about that. You only remember the sweetness and freshness and wonder of raising a golden retriever puppy.... that is if you do no harm in the meantime.

If dog is mouthing and really going after the clothes, etc.... that's a time to pull out a rawhide bone or whatever for him to chew on. Redirect to something high value that the dog IS allowed to chew on.

If dog is jumping on you, there are mild corrections you can do which train them to keep their feet off. So even if they are jumping and leaping around, it's not a problem if it's all non contact. With puppies, they learn "off" fairly early. There's a light pinch on the toes you can do, etc.

If dog is pulling, you can correct that... but honestly, might want to consider why the dog is pulling very badly. Remember you have a sporting breed and these dogs if physically sound and athletic were built to run and maneuver through the marshes and bushes and such. <= People who live in the city and don't have access to a yard.... it's tough, but these are reasons why dog parks exist. You just have to find a way to get over there and use the facilities at times when there's not a lot of other people around or dangerous dogs. It is extra hardship trying to make it all work out, but these are things which you need to consider prior to bringing a sporting breed home to an apartment, etc. You find ways to make do. Leash walks are not enough.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

SRW said:


> I'm as positive as a trainer can be . I teach commands and good behavior. Praise obedience and correct disobedience.
> 
> Time outs don't work, dogs don't think that way.


Yes, dogs aren't human. Timeouts in a kennel will not make sense to a dog.

What is the specific behavior that you wish to change? It will first help to lay some groundwork like the "look at me," "sit," and "stay" commands. If the dog gets too excited about another dog, say, redirecting and having the dog focus on you may be all you need to stop the unwanted behavior.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> People who live in the city and don't have access to a yard.... it's tough, but these are reasons why dog parks exist.


I thought that was the reason for French Bulldogs and Shih Tzus?


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

Megora said:


> Remember you have a sporting breed and these dogs if physically sound and athletic were built to run and maneuver through the marshes and bushes and such. <= People who live in the city and don't have access to a yard.... it's tough, but these are reasons why dog parks exist. You just have to find a way to get over there and use the facilities at times when there's not a lot of other people around or dangerous dogs. It is extra hardship trying to make it all work out, but these are things which you need to consider prior to bringing a sporting breed home to an apartment, etc. You find ways to make do. Leash walks are not enough.


I recommend a virtual reality headset made for dogs and a doggy treadmill. The dog thinks it's running out in the marsh and brush but it's really just on the treadmill.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenDude said:


> I recommend a virtual reality headset made for dogs and a doggy treadmill. The dog thinks it's running out in the marsh and brush but it's really just on the treadmill.


I think treadmills are 10 steps worse than leash walking for dogs and denotes an owner who isn't even trying.


----------



## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

Quick anecdote about timeouts. I know that some people may agree how timeouts are effective, but I think it's more about the duration of timeout that will increase your success. I'm not sure what bad behavior you're trying to address, but for us, the only reason our dog gets put into timeout is when he's too energetic when guests come over (rarely with new guests, usually with his favorite people). 

We give him one or two warnings to knock it off, but he's a little under 2, so his brain is still wanting to short circuit when the excitement hits. After those verbal warnings, and he continues, I immediately grab him and put him in my office, which is right off of our sitting room. I only leave him in there for 2-3 minutes (exercise in exclusion from "the pack" for naughty behavior). When I go back into the room, I usually find him sitting calmly to show me that he's ready to rejoin the party. When I release him, he's 1000% better and whatever energy he exhibited at the top goes away. I think any longer than 2-3 minutes, he starts to get crazy in solitary confinement, and any longer, any dog will forget why he's in timeout in the first place.

Maybe because we use timeouts sparingly and for only one specific reason, our dog knows the expectation of him when he's done his time. Every dog is different. I think by a year, you and your dog have developed your own communication techniques, and you'll know best how to correct your dog.


----------



## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Just saying no without doing something to stop it isn't going to work Say no while stopping the behavior. And don't say it 3 times. Dogs are incredible counters. He will learn that you don't really mean it the first 2 times. They have to do it the first time. There is nothing wrong with putting them in the crate to calm down. Only do about 10-15 minutes though.


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

A few suggestions below, to add to what others have said.



Aeacus said:


> (...) Which of the two would be the proper course of action (indoors, at home), and why;
> 
> 1. If doggo behaves badly (usually from over excitement), saying stern "No" up to 3 times and if he doesn't still listen, grabbing from his collar and leading him to his pen, saying the keyword to get him into the pen (e.g "Pen" or "Into pen") and closing the door afterwards. So that he could cool off and learn that the bad behavior isn't acceptable. (Doggo would remain in pen for 15-30 mins or so.) And this every time he does unacceptable things, until doggo learns not do to unacceptable things. Or stops doing it after saying stern "No".
> 
> 2. 1st time when doggo behaves badly (usually from over excitement), saying stern "No" up to 3 times and if he doesn't still listen, grabbing from his collar and leading him to his pen, saying the keyword to get him into the pen (e.g "Pen" or "Into pen") and closing the door afterwards. For another 15-30 mins timeout. *But 2nd time around*, rather than leading doggo to his pen, threatening doggo instead with the keyword (e.g "Pen" or "Into pen"). When doggo stops bad behavior due to the threat, he won't be put into the pen at all. And this for all following instances. Rather than actually putting doggo into pen, doggo is threatened to stop bad behavior. (...)


IMHO, neither. "No" is just about the most useless command ever devised for dog training. As Palouse said (post #13 above), if you don't pair it with an instruction telling the dog what you want him to do instead, all you're doing is creating confusion. Humans tell their dogs "no" all the time: they use a simple "no" command to mean "no, don't jump up", "no, don't bite", "no, don't get on the couch", "no, don't steal from the counter", "no, don't chew that" ... etc. How is the dog supposed to decipher what it means and know _what you actually want them to do?_ All the dog gets from a simple "no" command is that the human is upset about something. It creates uncertainty and IMHO, in your situation, it might actually be increasing your dog's over-excitement because he just doesn't know what to do. I don't use "no", I use "ah-ah" to signal that I don't like what my dog is doing, followed immediately by the command for what I want him to do instead: "ah-ah, sit" if he's jumping up, or "ah-ah, get down" if he's somewhere I don't want him to be, for example. My suggestion would be to decide on the behaviour you want your dog to do whenever he starts jumping or nipping - just ONE behaviour, the same one you're going to ask for each time he does it. It might be "sit", it might be "lie down", it might be anything else you want. And then you train and proof that behaviour when he's behaving well, in your daily training sessions, and you practise it in different situations until you get 100% compliance wherever you are and whatever he's doing. And then, when he starts biting or nipping, you tell him "ah-ah" (not "no") to signal that you don't like what he's doing, followed immediately by the command for what you want him to do instead. If he doesn't immediately comply, you enforce compliance gently, and then praise him.



Aeacus said:


> In our "pack", but in our doggo's mind: i'm Alpha, then comes doggo and my missus is 3rd. Now, we are doing obedience classes with him (every Monday) and i let her to do all the classes with our doggo, while i'm sitting on the sidelines and only helping out when needed (e.g doggo pulls loose from her during obedience class, since there are other dogs as well, and i'll run after doggo).


As others have said, the "alpha" theory has long been debunked, even by the person who originally proposed it. Dogs simply don't function like that. For example, my dog eats before me, he goes through doorways before me, he sleeps on my bed, etc., etc., but nobody who sees us would ever doubt which one of us is calling the shots, and he'll always choose to follow me regardless of what he's doing. We humans ask dogs to live in a world that's completely alien to them. Much of a dog's natural behaviour - behaviour that is perfectly fine in the dog world - is completely unacceptable in the human world. Yelling, grabbing the dog by the scruff, having different rules for different situations or different people, or simply not being clear about what you want, will simply make your dog insecure and, if you have an assertive or confident dog (as you seem to have, per his Volhard scores), more inclined to become over-excited in situations where he's uncertain. The dog needs to learn that the human is trustworthy and can be relied on to indicate clearly what the dog can and cannot do in different situations. That's all. Dog behaviour is a question of training, not social ranking.



Aeacus said:


> (...) Just today, when outside walk was about to finish, i had an "incident" with him.
> Namely, when we were closing in to our front door, during normal walk (slack in leash), he suddenly started to grab the leash and tried to play tug-of-war with me. I completely ignored him and walked forwards, close to our front door. Doggo did follow me with slacked leash while still trying to get good grip on the leash with his teeth. Once he realized that he can't get good grip on the leash, he started to jump up on me, from behind, mid walk. I ignored him again and walked forwards. Then, he started to jump and bite me from the behind. Once he bit me from my behind (arse), that was when i lost it. Since i don't care who's dog it is, i will not let myself be mauled by a dog. So, i turned around, grabbed from the shoulder area. Then, doggo realized that what he did, was not fine and laid down to the ground. With a stern voice, i told him "No" and "It was painful."
> This stopped the whatever "play" he was thinking about doing with me. I released my hand, stood up and he sat up. After which we continued on as normal, like nothing happened. He behaved well, sitting at front door, waiting until i opened the door, then came in when i tasked him. Etc, normal good behavior.
> 
> (...) Redirect doesn't work, since we've tried it countless of times. When our doggo is in that "state", he does not listen commands. At best, 5% of commands actually register in his brain. <- This is so with all dogs IMO. E.g you can not train a dog, when dog is in the overly excited state. With this, only way forward is to calm the brain down, so that ears "open" again.


Ignoring bad behaviour won't make it go away. If your dog jumps on you, you have to deal with it right away. By walking away, you're turning the jumping into a chasing game, which escalates it and triggers the biting. In this particular situation it's your fault that you were bitten because you didn't deal with the leash biting and jumping up when they occurred. You allowed them to happen without correcting them, and then you got angry at the dog, and grabbed him, so he reacted fearfully because _he didn't know what you wanted him to do because you hadn't told him. _Instead of indicating to him that the leash grabbing and jumping were unacceptable to you, you ignored them. So in his mind, the grabbing came out of the blue. All it did was to make him trust you less. It did not and will not make him stop jumping and nipping - why would it, when he doesn't know why you did it?

Part of your problem may well be that his basic commands haven't been trained properly. By "properly", I mean to a level where he complies all the time regardless of the situation or circumstances. You are correct in stating that you can't train a dog when the dog is in an overly excited state. But you should be training your dog to a level where he will obey simple commands even if he's overly excited. If this isn't the case, he isn't properly trained. I can call my dog back to me even if he's chasing a squirrel, for example.

In the above situation, if you had trained a rock-solid "drop it" command, you could have dealt with him as soon as he grabbed the leash simply by saying "ah-ah, drop it". Problem solved. If you didn't have a "drop it" command, you could have dealt with his behaviour at the second stage, when he started jumping up, simply by saying "ah-ah, sit". By ignoring these first two stages, you enabled the third stage, the biting. You don't train the "drop it" or "sit" commands when he's behaving badly; you train them when he's behaving well, in your everyday training sessions, and you practise them in different situations (tug of war games with a toy, asking him to "sit" in unexpected circumstances - e.g. at random during a walk, or while you're cooking dinner, etc.). Redirect isn't working for you because his basic training is deficient. Fix that, and the jumping/nipping will fix itself because your dog will have learned to trust you to tell him what to do instead of punishing him for not knowing what to do.

I do understand that some dogs are harder to train than others, but once you have a system in place, it will be a lot easier. I wish you the best of luck and hope you find a way to fix this.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

Megora said:


> If dog is mouthing and really going after the clothes, etc.... that's a time to pull out a rawhide bone or whatever for him to chew on. Redirect to something high value that the dog IS allowed to chew on.


He doesn't go after the clothes at full force, instead, there are 5, distinct instances with clothes.
1. My missus'es slippers. For whatever reason, our doggo likes to bite into her slippers (in doing that, sometimes also biting her leg) and/or steal the slipper for himself.
2. When my missus walks from kitchen to home office, our doggo, for whatever reason, likes to grab bottom part of her skirt and walk with her, part of the skirt in his mouth.
3. When my missus is putting socks on, doggo likes to grab the sock from her foot.
4. When my missus is changing clothes, doggo likes to grab her clothes and play tug-of-war with clothing items.
5. Outside on the walks, when wearing long sleeved jumpers (or anything else long sleeved), and when in overly-excited state, besides jumping up on us and biting hands, doggo may grab from the end of the sleeve and start pulling it backwards (tug-of-war i guess?)

Now, 1st and 2nd thing doesn't happen with me, since i don't wear slippers or skirts. 😅 3rd thing doesn't happen with me either. Instead, when i'm putting my socks on, doggo just comes and sniffs my socks, without ever grabbing them. 4th thing also doesn't happen with me. When i change clothes, doggo does come and look what is going on and if he sees that i put on my outside clothes, he gets excited, since he knows that we are going out. And 5th does happen with me as well. Currently, it's summer time and we don't wear long sleeved clothes, so, this hasn't happened since Spring.



Megora said:


> If dog is jumping on you, there are mild corrections you can do which train them to keep their feet off. So even if they are jumping and leaping around, it's not a problem if it's all non contact. With puppies, they learn "off" fairly early. There's a light pinch on the toes you can do, etc.


We are also training him not to jump up on people. With strangers, he rarely does it. With us, more often.
When he jumps up, we say "Off" and when he gets on all fours again, then we praise him for getting back down. <- As i understood, dogs are 1 task creatures, meaning that when i praise him for getting off from me, he registers the praise for getting back on the ground, and not for the task prior to that (jumping up on me).



Megora said:


> If dog is pulling, you can correct that... but honestly, might want to consider why the dog is pulling very badly.


Our doggo has 2 instances when he pulls like crazy. Both of these are well known to us and we can avoid the situations;
1. When doggo smells female dog in heat.
2. When we both go out on the walks, but leash is in missus'es hands and i won't be next to them. <- This usually happens when we need to drive somewhere.

Since our apartment complex has garages behind our flat, and i keep my car in the garage (and not in front of the flat), i go behind the flat to get the car and my missus walks the doggo (pehhaps doggo needs to go potty). But instead of going for the normal (short) walk route, doggo pulls like crazy, to get to me.

--

Now, our doggo behaves completely differently when one of us leaves home and another remains home.

When my missus goes out and i stay home with our doggo, our doggo just watches missus going out of the door and after she has left, doesn't make a sound. Rarely a bark or two.
Now, when i leave home and missus stays home with our doggo, then i can't even leave the home, without doggo wanting to come with me. And if i happen to leave him in the home, he will bark, whine and pace around the home for quite a while.
Why it is so, i'm not entirely sure. I think my doggo has far more affection with me than with my missus.

But when either of the two of us returns home, doggo is equally happy to see either of us.



michaeldwilson said:


> Timeouts in a kennel will not make sense to a dog.


Maybe not for your dog, but for our doggo, it does.

For example: we have hardwood floor and since we got a puppy, we had to buy carpets to cover it, so that our pup doesn't slide on it when walking. Now, first few carpets we bought, were rug types (quite thick) and our doggo started to chew on it, pulling out the big, fat and long strings carpet was made of. So, i instead looked into doormat style carpet, which has rubber underside (won't slide at all), only 0.5 cm thick and made with small woven threads, without any loose or sticking out ends (so that doggo can't easily chew on it). Oh, and for easy cleaning as well.
Now, our doggo soon figured out on how to chew on that as well (lifting corner of the carpet with paw, to chew on the corner). But i was around and when i caught him doing the act, i took hold of his collar and lead him to pen, for ~15mins. I had to do this *twice*, until our doggo learned that chewing carpets is not okay. And ever since, he has not chewed on any carpet we have (in total, we have 9 carpets in our apartment).

Now, putting a dog to a pen, means for the dog that: "if i do X thing, my human puts me into my pen, without any toys and human interaction. This is boring and bad, i remember not to do X thing again." <- This is the very foundation how dogs learn. Good behavior is rewarded by positive things (toy, praise, treat etc), while bad behavior is rewarded by negative things (take toy away, no human interaction, play stops etc).



michaeldwilson said:


> What is the specific behavior that you wish to change?


Biting us (namely hands). Biting happens only when he is over-excited and doesn't think that it isn't okay.
Jumping up on us and pulling clothes are things as well he does, but compared to biting, other two would be minor.

In that sense, never getting into over-excited state would be ideal, but i know that this will never happen. Over-excited is a state of emotion and you can't train emotions out of a dog. Though, perhaps, better would be learning on how to calm dog down, once he is in the over-excited state. Speaking of it, watched this (long) vid yesterday:








GoldenDude said:


> doggy treadmill


I've seen few vids of it and while it's fun to watch, especially when dog itself loves it, i don't think it would be suited for our doggo. Moreover, we don't have enough free space where to put it and i haven't seen any of such things on sale, in this part of the world. Those few vids i've seen about doggy treadmill, they all seem to be DIY projects.

For example, retractable leashes are very popular, even in this part of the world. I, in the other hand, don't think that i should be using retractable leash, since that takes effort away from human (i view retractable leash users as lazy people). Instead, i'm using regular leash (~3m long) and go everywhere with my doggo. Staying close to doggo also helps me to scan the ground with eyes, and spot any item that my doggo might want to eat.



DevWind said:


> There is nothing wrong with putting them in the crate to calm down. Only do about 10-15 minutes though.


That's what we've been doing. And this very topic started with the two different methods in doing that.



ceegee said:


> Humans tell their dogs "no" all the time: they use a simple "no" command to mean "no, don't jump up", "no, don't bite", "no, don't get on the couch", "no, don't steal from the counter", "no, don't chew that" ... etc.


We don't add the explanatory phrases at the end of our "No". We only say "No", to stop the dog doing whatever he is doing, followed by a small pause, and then comes next command. <- I find this to be very simple and easy to understood for the dog as well.



ceegee said:


> If your dog jumps on you, you have to deal with it right away. By walking away, you're turning the jumping into a chasing game, which escalates it and triggers the biting.


In regards of this, there is conflicting info on the net, on what to do in those situations.
Leash grabbing and pulling should mean that doggo wants my attention and wants to play tug-of-war with the leash with me. Now, if i don't give him any attention, he should realize that leash grabbing doesn't work and he should (eventually) realize not to do it in the first place? No?



ceegee said:


> By "properly", I mean to a level where he complies all the time regardless of the situation or circumstances.


Yeah, based on your description, our doggo is far from properly trained.



ceegee said:


> If you didn't have a "drop it" command, you could have dealt with his behaviour at the second stage, when he started jumping up, simply by saying "ah-ah, sit".


We do have "drop it" command for him, but that training is in very early stages as of right now. We train it with his toys, when we ask him to give his toy to us. Quite often we need to repeat the command several times, before he lets whatever is in his mouth, go. Other times, when saying the command only once, it take quite a long while before doggo releases the item, if ever. Now, when he does release the item, we praise him for that, always.



ceegee said:


> you train them when he's behaving well, in your everyday training sessions, and you practise them in different situations (tug of war games with a toy, asking him to "sit" in unexpected circumstances


We are mixing the training up, by doing it in different situations. To name the few:

I sometimes, during the walks, stop out of the blue and also ask our doggo to stop. He does that well, usually sitting down (sit is his default/preferred position). And after ~10 seconds, i continue on, by also commanding him to move forwards with "Come" command.
During tug-of-war play with his toy, at random, i say "Give", to train the release item command. Once he gives toy/item away, i praise him.
When retrieving toy back to me, i praise him for retrieval and do one of the three at random: 1. Another throw and retrieve, 2. small session of tug-of-war, 3. i rub him from the sweet spots.

--

All-in-all, i think we've done a lot of things properly, especially for 1st time dog owners. Though, some issues are still present.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ceegee said:


> "No" is just about the most useless command ever devised for dog training.


I get your point but any command is useless if not properly used.
"No" as I use it is a verbal correction not a command. Other times it is a cue used in teaching, "no-no". How you say a command or cue has far more meaning to a dog that what word is used.


It sounds like the main issue here is an energetic dog that doesn't get enough physical or mental exercise.


----------



## mariartist (8 mo ago)

ceegee said:


> A few suggestions below, to add to what others have said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry to hijack but this was incredibly helpful. Thank you for taking the time to write it. I think a lot of people are having similar issues as the op and it will be read often. 
My pup is like op pup he gets so excited around new people he won’t listen to any commands he knows so well when we’re training. He also bites the leash when it’s time to walk and I know it’s bad but I think it’s kinda cute so I haven’t tried to stop it yet. I’m noticing big changes in jumping and barking while being fed just by using some positive reinforcement techniques. We’re now working on jumping on the counter again with positive reinforcement and repetition and he is getting a lot better. They learn fast. 
From what I’m learning it takes a lot of repetition and patience to get them to learn but they do learn!
Sorry again to hijack but your comment was so helpful and good to read thank you


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

mariartist said:


> Sorry again to hijack but your comment was so helpful and good to read thank you


My topic and advice shared here is for every dog owner, so, i don't view your contribution as a hijack. 😉 On the contrary, your case shows that the issue we have with our doggo, is something many (1st time) dog owners struggle with.

Our doggo also gets excited when we have visitors. I hold him back, until visitors can take their shoes off. This small amount of time is usually enough for doggo to calm down enough not to jump on them out of huge excitement.

Also, what i did previously, but have dialed back, was when i 1st met our doggo in the morning, i didn't make it out as a greatest thing ever. Instead, i ignored him for the first 5mins or so. This was to reduce the excitement of his, of meeting people (our guests or even ourselves). Now, every morning, i greet him and say "Who we have here?", while giving him few pats. Of course, doggo is happy to see me again but he won't go crazy and jumpy.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Aeacus said:


> Biting us (namely hands). Biting happens only when he is over-excited and doesn't think that it isn't okay.
> Jumping up on us and pulling clothes are things as well he does, but compared to biting, other two would be minor.
> 
> In that sense, never getting into over-excited state would be ideal, but i know that this will never happen. Over-excited is a state of emotion and you can't train emotions out of a dog. Though, perhaps, better would be learning on how to calm dog down, once he is in the over-excited state. Speaking of it, watched this (long) vid yesterday:
> ...


Yep, this is a behavior that needs to be addressed. You don't want a dog biting you, or worse, a child. I've had two Goldens and both cases I stopped their biting in the early months by yelping when they bit me. I mimic the behavior they learn when they play with other puppies and learn about boundaries. Although it worked for me, I know it does not always work for everyone.

If yelping doesn't work, you will need to correct your dog's behavior. It needs to be clear and well-timed. You should not do anything that hurts your dog or overly frightens your dog. You want your dog to respect you, not fear you.

I recommend this video. Let us know how it works out!


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

mariartist said:


> he won’t listen to any commands he knows so well when we’re training.


Don't say: He won't listen to commands. Instead say: He will listen to commands if I keep at it and practice a lot!


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Aeacus said:


> Our doggo also gets excited when we have visitors. I hold him back, until visitors can take their shoes off. This small amount of time is usually enough for doggo to calm down enough not to jump on them out of huge excitement.


You may be already doing this, but don't just hold him back. Call his name, pull him to you, have him focus on you with a sit or look at me command until he calms down (better than shutting him in the crate). If he complies, treat. If he doesn't comply, pull him further back and try again. Make sure you get some kind of success.


----------



## mariartist (8 mo ago)

michaeldwilson said:


> Don't say: He won't listen to commands. Instead say: He will listen to commands if I keep at it and practice a lot!


Oh yes we practice a lot and he’s so good at it usually but when people get in his face and want to pet him he just malfunctions lol. But we keep at it multiple times a day every day. 
We took him to the pet store in a cart from home and a lady came up to us didn’t even ask and she was holding a lizard and getting in my puppies face even though she saw how excited he was she was ramping it up and her lizards tail was a few inches from my puppies head! We just had to walk away because it would have been our fault if our puppy nipped her lizard even though she was in our personal space. He was a good boy and didn’t though. Everyone sees a fuzzy cute golden retriever puppy and they have an excitement melt down!


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

mariartist said:


> Oh yes we practice a lot and he’s so good at it usually but when people get in his face and want to pet him he just malfunctions lol. But we keep at it multiple times a day every day.
> We took him to the pet store in a cart from home and a lady came up to us didn’t even ask and she was holding a lizard and getting in my puppies face even though she saw how excited he was she was ramping it up and her lizards tail was a few inches from my puppies head! We just had to walk away because it would have been our fault if our puppy nipped her lizard even though she was in our personal space. He was a good boy and didn’t though. Everyone sees a fuzzy cute golden retriever puppy and they have an excitement melt down!


People love to pet Golden Retrievers! When people do that, I hold up one finger, smile, and nod as if to say wait a minute, then I pull Emmitt to me and get his attention until he calms down. Then treat and greet. I also ask the person to say "sit" in a firm command and it usually works. My pup is 11 months. He did very well in Home Depot a few days ago except when one young lady was very excited to see him and caught me off guard. He pulled right to her and jumped. It's a process.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

michaeldwilson said:


> If yelping doesn't work


It does not work, on the contrary, it will fuel the fire.



michaeldwilson said:


> I recommend this video. Let us know how it works out!


I have reservations about that video.

In the active correction part, he does explain that he says the "tshhh.." and touches the dog slightly (to redirect the brain), but what he does not explain, is the finger snapping at the end. On the live correction, you can clearly hear that after the sound and touch, he snaps his fingers. He does two corrections and snaps fingers at every correction. <- In my book, not disclosing everything, is misinformation, with little, if any credibility.

Now, i know that some trainers love to use dog clickers. And he seems to be of same type, but instead of using dog clicker, he snaps his fingers instead.
Our dog is not trained by clicker and i don't want to do that either, since to me, clicking at every step is very annoying to hear for my ears.

And in passive correction part, he also does explain what he is doing, but in live video, he does more. Namely, when he grabs the collar, he doesn't just grab the collar but part of the dog's neck skin as well.

--

What we do struggle with, is the redirection part, since we do not have equal value item (dog toy or treat) with us 24/7.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Aeacus said:


> It does not work, on the contrary, it will fuel the fire.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These are proven techniques. If you are looking for an argument,I’m going to pass.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> What we do struggle with, is the redirection part, since we do not have equal value item (dog toy or treat) with us 24/7.


What you struggle with is training your dog and accepting sound advice about how to do it.


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

Megora said:


> I think treadmills are 10 steps worse than leash walking for dogs and denotes an owner who isn't even trying.


They love the virtual reality goggles, though! Every dog should have a pair! It's like they're right there in the woods or in the lake or on the hunt! The treadmill helps with the reality aspect but I guess you could skip that part.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> Now, we are doing obedience classes with him (every Monday) and i let her to do all the classes with our doggo, while i'm sitting on the sidelines and only helping out when needed (e.g doggo pulls loose from her during obedience class, since there are other dogs as well, and i'll run after doggo).


^^^^^ You have a lot of training to do. I would be upset if I was in an obedience class and a 13 month old dog was breaking loose from it's owner. (Just being honest) I'm going to have control of my dog, and I expect you to have control of yours.

Sit is the first, most basic command that most of us teach. If my dog was starting the behaviors that your describing I would say "SIT". If he did not sit I would say "No (slight pause for him to pay attention) SIT". I use the word No as a correction. If I say No my dogs know that I mean it. I don't use it often, or carelessly. If I say sit, my dogs sit. I only say commands once, then wait for the proper response. If you have a firm sit command you can control most unwanted behaviors. You seem to be well versed in training, so I won't explain how to teach the sit command.

As far as him being good when receiving treats, and then bad as soon as the treats run out, slowly taper how often he is rewarded. Throw in a marker word, like "yes" or "good" so he knows a treat will be coming, but not right that minute. I start to taper treats for behaviors as soon as they are solid. The treats are just to get things started.

From what your describing, it sounds more like your dog is intimidated by you, not necessarily trained, and that is causing bigger issues for your "missus". Perhaps the two of you would benefit from a few private lessons in your home so the trainer could get a good idea of the dynamic?


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

SRW said:


> I get your point but any command is useless if not properly used.
> "No" as I use it is a verbal correction not a command. Other times it is a cue used in teaching, "no-no". How you say a command or cue has far more meaning to a dog that what word is used.


I agree with you: "no" as a verbal correction or cue is very different from "no" as a command to elicit a specific action in response to bad behaviour. I maybe wasn't very clear in what I wrote.

The OP was using "no" as a command to stop his dog from biting him; my point was that it doesn't work that way. While "no" has meaning for humans, it's meaningless to the dog in terms of signalling what behaviour is wanted, because humans use it for all kinds of different situations and not for just one thing. If it's being used as a command, it needs to be linked to an actual command that the dog has been trained to understand, so it knows exactly what to do instead ("no, sit" or "no, drop it"). In my experience, it's easier, especially for inexperienced trainers, to use something else as a cue or marker of bad behaviour, or as a verbal correction, so that there's no danger of them thinking that what they're saying is an actual command that will elicit the response they want. "Ah-ah" doesn't have meaning for humans, so it doesn't generate expectations.

You're an experienced dog trainer, you know what you're doing and you use "no" for a particular purpose. The OP is a first-time dog owner and is using it as a general command when it doesn't work for that. I think that's what I was trying to say!


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

michaeldwilson said:


> These are proven techniques.


Cookie cutter technique that will work on all dogs, regardless the situation, at all times? I don't think so.

You, yourself said:



michaeldwilson said:


> and both cases I stopped their biting in the early months by yelping when they bit me.


Now, yelping worked for you dogs, great! However, same doesn't work with our doggo.

Our doggo, at best, pauses for a second and then starts biting even harder. Now, i don't know what our doggo thought, but his actions spoke for itself. Essentially: "i'm happy, i play with my human, i bite him/her, he/she responded with high-pitch yelp, high-pitched means i did good, i'll bite him/her again but harder this time.". <- And that he did, when we yelped after we got bit, he did bite us harder and was even more excited.

Like i linked in one of my previous replies, we have tried several "proven techniques" in order to stop doggo from biting us. Here is the list from my old post, for easier read:


Aeacus said:


> Here's what we've tried (and not just once, but several times to see if those techniques help):
> 
> * when pup nips you, say "No", to let pup know it's not okay
> (We've tried it and when our pup is overly exited, this doesn't work.)
> ...


Now, what vibe i get from some of you, is this: "here is a video or my personal experience with my own dogs, which proves that this specific technique will work on that specific dog on that specific setting - so, this technique must work on your dog as well.". 



SRW said:


> and accepting sound advice about how to do it.


Yes, i have issues accepting advice that doesn't disclose all important parts. E.g like the video with finger snapping. He didn't talked about finger snapping, so, it wasn't required? However, in the live demonstration, he did snap his fingers. So, the finger snapping is required after all? If so, why? <- In this case, it isn't dog owner's fault that they are presented with conflicting info. Instead, it's the trainer's fault for teaching conflicting info.



DblTrblGolden2 said:


> ^^^^^ You have a lot of training to do. I would be upset if I was in an obedience class and a 13 month old dog was breaking loose from it's owner. (Just being honest) I'm going to have control of my dog, and I expect you to have control of yours.


Between myself and my missus, we have different way on how we hold on to the leash. My way (and i'm quite sure i'll get a lot of scolding over it), is such, that whatever happens, doggo *will not* get loose from me. (Pic in this topic). My missus holds the leash differently, where when doggo suddenly starts to run and caught her off guard, can brake loose from her (has happened 4-5 times already).

Now, i know that doggo should never get into the mindset where he just takes off when he is leashed and in that regard, we have loads of training still to do.



DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I only say commands once, then wait for the proper response.


That i do know, but during training, would it be fine to repeat the command more than once? So that doggo can learn and remember better what this sound phrase is supposed to mean? Because when you start training a new command to doggo, doggo has no clue what the command means.

This reminds me the 1st trick i taught him. The "Sit" command. At 1st, i didn't include any verbal commands, instead, i taught him to sit via hand movement, with treat in hand. Once he understood my hand movement (this small, upward motion with closed hand) and sat down nicely, then i started to bring in the verbal command as well, to associate specific sound phrase with him sitting down. 

Edit:



ceegee said:


> "Ah-ah" doesn't have meaning for humans, so it doesn't generate expectations.


That exact phrase, in Estonian (i live in Estonia), has a meaning and i often use it as well. "Ah-ah" means "i understood" or "i heard what you said", in far condensed way. It is not an actual dictionary word, but instead more of a slang.

Edit 2: I looked it up and "ah-ah" is actually part of Estonian dictionary, so it is an official word/phrase.


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> That i do know, but during training, would it be fine to repeat the command more than once? So that doggo can learn and remember better what this sound phrase is supposed to mean? Because when you start training a new command to doggo, doggo has no clue what the command means.
> 
> This reminds me the 1st trick i taught him. The "Sit" command. At 1st, i didn't include any verbal commands, instead, i taught him to sit via hand movement, with treat in hand. Once he understood my hand movement (this small, upward motion with closed hand) and sat down nicely, then i started to bring in the verbal command as well, to associate specific sound phrase with him sitting down.


No, you shouldn't repeat commands more than once. The way you taught "sit" is fine (adding the verbal command afterwards). Another approach is to start by giving the verbal command "sit", lure the dog into the sitting position using a treat, and then reward with the treat. You then phase out the lure. If, after phasing out the lure, the dog hears "sit" and doesn't immediately sit, you shouldn't repeat the command. Instead you should place him gently in the sitting position, by luring or by manoeuvering him, and then praise him without giving him a food treat. Then do it again a couple of times with a lure, before trying again without the lure. Eventually you can phase out the treats altogether.

If you repeat the command, the dog will come to understand that the command for sitting down is "sit, sit" or "sit, sit, sit" or however many times you say it. He may stop responding if you say it only once. Dogs are literal creatures. You have to be careful.

I see this a lot in agility. For example, there are many handlers who have to yell "tunnel, tunnel, tunnel" in order to direct their dogs to a tunnel. The dogs think the command is a three-word command because that's the habit the handler has got them into. I also had a training partner who didn't train her dog to do the teeter downward contact correctly, and the dog came to understand that the correct way to do the obstacle was to run over it once without stopping on the contact, then circle back and do it properly - because that is what always happened in practice. It took years for her to un-train that one!


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Can't help those that refuse to help themselves.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ceegee said:


> The OP was using "no" as a command to stop his dog from biting him; my point was that it doesn't work that way.


What if you were to say it three times an louder?


ceegee said:


> The OP is a first-time dog owner


That seems to know it all.


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> That exact phrase, in Estonian (i live in Estonia), has a meaning and i often use it as well. "Ah-ah" means "i understood" or "i heard what you said", in far condensed way. It is not an actual dictionary word, but instead more of a slang.
> 
> Edit 2: I looked it up and "ah-ah" is actually part of Estonian dictionary, so it is an official word/phrase.


Well, if we're going to be pedantic, it's in most English and French dictionaries as well (I live in Canada), with several meanings similar meaning to the one you give above for Estonia. It's used mainly as an interjection in conversations, a kind of non-vocabulary verbal marker of attention, and can be written in several different ways.

Since this is the element of my post you felt deserved a response, I think I'll retire gracefully from the conversation. I wish you all the best in dealing with your dog's behaviour, and I hope you find a solution to it.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> That seems to know it all.


If i were to know it all, as you imply me to be, this topic wouldn't exist.
But since it does, why the hostile attitude towards me? Because i don't accept the conflicting method as the one and only holy truth (speaking of "How To Stop Puppy Biting In Seconds" video, linked by _michaeldwilson_)?



ceegee said:


> Well, if we're going to be pedantic, it's in most English and French dictionaries as well (I live in Canada), with several meanings similar meaning to the one you give above for Estonia. It's used mainly as an interjection in conversations, a kind of non-vocabulary verbal marker of attention, and can be written in several different ways.


Since this phrase doesn't suit us, why not suggest to use any other non-meaning phrase? Rather than getting triggered over it, when i explained why we can't use this specific phrase.
Unless, it *has to be* this specific phrase. 



ceegee said:


> No, you shouldn't repeat commands more than once. The way you taught "sit" is fine (adding the verbal command afterwards). Another approach is to start by giving the verbal command "sit", lure the dog into the sitting position using a treat, and then reward with the treat. You then phase out the lure. If, after phasing out the lure, the dog hears "sit" and doesn't immediately sit, you shouldn't repeat the command. Instead you should place him gently in the sitting position, by luring or by manoeuvering him, and then praise him without giving him a food treat. Then do it again a couple of times with a lure, before trying again without the lure. Eventually you can phase out the treats altogether.
> 
> If you repeat the command, the dog will come to understand that the command for sitting down is "sit, sit" or "sit, sit, sit" or however many times you say it. He may stop responding if you say it only once. Dogs are literal creatures. You have to be careful.
> 
> I see this a lot in agility. For example, there are many handlers who have to yell "tunnel, tunnel, tunnel" in order to direct their dogs to a tunnel. The dogs think the command is a three-word command because that's the habit the handler has got them into. I also had a training partner who didn't train her dog to do the teeter downward contact correctly, and the dog came to understand that the correct way to do the obstacle was to run over it once without stopping on the contact, then circle back and do it properly - because that is what always happened in practice. It took years for her to un-train that one!


Thank you for the good explanation.

Now, with "sit" command, he does it without treats and in home and also outdoors. I've been able to get him to sit even when he is semi-excited. But we have to work on it more.

"Give" command is something we trained wrong, whereby saying "give", waiting, he didn't release, we said again "give" etc until after 3rd command he finally dropped it. Now, trying with only 1 "give" command, we can see that he is waiting for other two as well, but when those doesn't come, he still drops it, albeit after few moments. This needs retrain. Luckily, we haven't done much "give" command training with him yet and retrain should go easier.

Commands need to be one per task, but how about praise? Are praises (e.g "good boy", "you did well") also once per task or can we say them multiple, in quick succession?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> If i were to know it all, as you imply me to be, this topic wouldn't exist.
> But since it does, why the hostile attitude towards me? Because i don't accept the conflicting method as the one and only holy truth (speaking of "How To Stop Puppy Biting In Seconds" video, linked by _michaeldwilson_)?


You’re right again. 
Might have to consider the possibility that your doggo isn’t very bright.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> Might have to consider the possibility that your doggo isn’t very bright.


My doggo being bright or dumb, has 0 to do with you being hostile towards me.

I thought this GR forums is the place where dog owners can come together, discuss about GRs, share and ask advice, in a calm and friendly manner.
And not a place, where advice by "experts" isn't a suggestion, but instead a demand. And when dog owner challenges the status quo, by asking additional information, rather than explaining it to dog owner, "experts" get mad and hostile towards dog owner, even resulting in Ad Hominem. Just like you demonstrated in this very topic.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Play nice, y’all.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeldwilson said:


> People love to pet Golden Retrievers! When people do that, I hold up one finger, smile, and nod as if to say wait a minute, then I pull Emmitt to me and get his attention until he calms down. Then treat and greet. I also ask the person to say "sit" in a firm command and it usually works. My pup is 11 months. He did very well in Home Depot a few days ago except when one young lady was very excited to see him and caught me off guard. He pulled right to her and jumped. It's a process.


Gotta share... showed my younger dog this morning and later sat on the side watching the rest of the breed and chatting with other golden people and listening to them. <= Sat next to one of the top breeders in the breed and enjoyed hearing feedback from her on what I was seeing in the ring with other dogs. Shapes, etc. Was interesting to learn why some dogs bodies looked a certain way when moving, etc.

A golden person sat on the other side and made eye contact with my boy and he immediately sidled over and slipped his nose under arm while leaning in for a hug. Made me teary eyed to see this because his dad did the same exact thing with anyone who gave him the opening. While I do put time into training my dogs to compete in obedience, I do enjoy seeing them just be well behaved dogs. You can get there through practical training. Some of it though I think there's what the dogs were born with....


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Megora said:


> Gotta share... showed my younger dog this morning and later sat on the side watching the rest of the breed and chatting with other golden people and listening to them. <= Sat next to one of the top breeders in the breed and enjoyed hearing feedback from her on what I was seeing in the ring with other dogs. Shapes, etc. Was interesting to learn why some dogs bodies looked a certain way when moving, etc.
> 
> A golden person sat on the other side and made eye contact with my boy and he immediately sidled over and slipped his nose under arm while leaning in for a hug. Made me teary eyed to see this because his dad did the same exact thing with anyone who gave him the opening. While I do put time into training my dogs to compete in obedience, I do enjoy seeing them just be well behaved dogs. You can get there through practical training. Some of it though I think there's what the dogs were born with....


Terrific story! It's great to see dogs reach that level of confidence and ease.


----------



## CooperRocky (Dec 24, 2018)

With all due respect, it sounds like the breeder didn't do their homework when they chose you as the home for this puppy. From everything you've stated, all I can think is what a miserable life for this dog. Your dog is simply doing dog things. You are supposed to be the smarter species. You are creating an adversarial relationship through the outdated training techniques you are using. Using the pen as punishment will only make the dog not want to go in the pen. Saying "No" means nothing. No is not a behavior. Teach an alternative behavior. Grabbing them by the collar or shoulders as you described in one of your comments is teaching your dog you are not safe. You are essentially in the beginning stages of creating an aggressive dog (yes, even golden retrievers can bite) and if you keep this up, you will get exactly that. You need to completely ditch your outdated method of thinking. Dominance theory has been debunked. There is no alpha. Dogs are not pack animals. Your dog knows you're not its mother, so doing things a mother dog would do is of no value. Your dog does not need corrections. It needs to be taught a better way. Science has proven time and time again that dogs do not need force, pain, fear, intimidation or punishment to learn and you are doing all those things. Please seek out a positive reinforcement, force-free trainer. If you can't find one in your area, there are plenty GOOD ones online that will do virtual consults. E-collars are nothing but positive punishment or negative reinforcement and are inhumane. Dog training isn't intuitive and you definitely have a lot to learn - but more importantly, to unlearn.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

CooperRocky said:


> With all due respect, it sounds like the breeder didn't do their homework when they chose you as the home for this puppy. From everything you've stated, all I can think is what a miserable life for this dog. Your dog is simply doing dog things. You are supposed to be the smarter species. You are creating an adversarial relationship through the outdated training techniques you are using. Using the pen as punishment will only make the dog not want to go in the pen. Saying "No" means nothing. No is not a behavior. Teach an alternative behavior. Grabbing them by the collar or shoulders as you described in one of your comments is teaching your dog you are not safe. You are essentially in the beginning stages of creating an aggressive dog (yes, even golden retrievers can bite) and if you keep this up, you will get exactly that. You need to completely ditch your outdated method of thinking. Dominance theory has been debunked. There is no alpha. Dogs are not pack animals. Your dog knows you're not its mother, so doing things a mother dog would do is of no value. Your dog does not need corrections. It needs to be taught a better way. Science has proven time and time again that dogs do not need force, pain, fear, intimidation or punishment to learn and you are doing all those things. Please seek out a positive reinforcement, force-free trainer. If you can't find one in your area, there are plenty GOOD ones online that will do virtual consults. E-collars are nothing but positive punishment or negative reinforcement and are inhumane. Dog training isn't intuitive and you definitely have a lot to learn - but more importantly, to unlearn.


Well you started out OK but flamed out about half way through.
You definitely have a lot to learn - but more importantly, to unlearn.


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

I’ll just add it sounds like your pup needs a lot more exercise. My Goldens are mostly field lines, and need to run everyday. My youngest is 3 yrs old. Lack of exercise in a sporting breed like Goldens can cause behavior problems. Walking a dog doesn’t do much to really wear them out. Thankfully I have a yard where they can run and retrieve. But I also take them on a long line to do retrieves and run at the park. We also hike where they can run and climb. A young golden needs a lot of exercise and also training of tricks and games to exercise the mind. We do obedience and agility and rally. Goldens are very smart and need both. A tired pup is usually a good pup. My 3 yr and 5 yr Goldens both need running time every day. But they are perfect dogs as long as I keep my part of the bargain and let them get the exercise they require. We do have one that’s a lot more laid back, more show breeding. But even he was a handful as a pup and needed exercise daily. If you can’t find a way to get him out where he can get some good exercise, probably at least twice a day, you may have picked the wrong breed for your lifestyle. Hopefully you will find a way to give your pup the exercise he needs. A lot of his nipping and leash grabbing sounds to me like he just wants to play and has a lot of excess energy that’s not getting drained.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

CooperRocky said:


> Using the pen as punishment will only make the dog not want to go in the pen.


Like i said earlier, pen isn't only for punishment but also for discipline. And it's a good place where to calm down overly excited dog. Since when doggo doesn't have any toys in there and can't reach us either, he has no other thing to do, other than to calm down, after which, he'll get out again.



CooperRocky said:


> Grabbing them by the collar or shoulders as you described in one of your comments is teaching your dog you are not safe.


Yet, the training video, linked by _michaeldwilson _(page 2 at the bottom of the page), has this very same "collar grab" move in it, as Passive Correction method. 

Now, what i have here, is a conflict: pro-grab and anti-grab. And no matter how i slice it, if i follow one side, the folks on opposite side get mad that i follow "wrong" advice.



CooperRocky said:


> Your dog does not need corrections.


In your world, how are you then supposed to make dog understand that what doggo did, was unwanted behavior? Since like you said, you can not use corrections.



StarBright said:


> A young golden needs a lot of exercise and also training of tricks and games to exercise the mind.


While we are limited on the physical exercise part, we do a lot of mind exercise with him, including tasks, tricks and nose work. We also play with him several times in the day as well (indoors tug-of-war or fetch/retrieve). Oh, 3-4 walks per day too, which, compared to neighborhood dogs, is really good. Most other doggos around here, get 2 walks per day.
Almost forgot, i don't ignore my doggo during the day. Instead, for the very least, i either look at him and say "good boy" or similar, when he wants a tiny bit of attention from me, or i pet him.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> Oh, 3-4 walks per day too, which, compared to neighborhood dogs, is really good. Most other doggos around here, get 2 walks per day.


Compared to neighborhood dogs means nothing and it certainly doesn't make 3-4 walks adequate exercise for a retriever. If you have that much time why not get him some real exercise?


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

Aeacus said:


> I thought this GR forums is the place where dog owners can come together, discuss about GRs, share and ask advice, in a calm and friendly manner.
> 
> Now, what i have here, is a conflict: pro-grab and anti-grab. And no matter how i slice it, if i follow one side, the folks on opposite side get mad that i follow "wrong" advice.


I don’t know anywhere on the internet, including this forum, where things are discussed calmly or friendly. It’s the internet.

You will get conflicting advice. That happens anytime you seek advice on the internet. Read the differing advice. Go with what works for you and makes sense to you, provided it’s not actually abusive. And be confident in your choices. Don’t sweat it when someone gets mad with your choice. Depending on the dog and what I’m doing, I use either a flat collar, a gentle leader, an e-collar, or a slip lead with my various dogs and don’t really care what other randos on the internet think about those items.


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

My dogs don’t get any walks. For my service puppy, I guess walking into the store and around the store counts as a walk?? So maybe that one does???

I live on 5 acres during the week and 80 on the weekend. My dogs roam the property with me. I see no need to walk mine.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

GoldenDude said:


> I don’t know anywhere on the internet, including this forum, where things are discussed calmly or friendly. It’s the internet.


Internet doesn't cause heated arguments on it's own, just like traffic on the roads doesn't cause road rage. It is up to individuals themselves, if to be nice and friendly or arrogant and rude.

Now, i've had loads of different discussions on different forums, and even when there's disagreement, knowledgeable people agree to disagree, ending the discussion. But it's the weak-minded people, who resort to Ad Hominem, since that's all they know.



SRW said:


> it certainly doesn't make 3-4 walks adequate exercise for a retriever


If i were to train our doggo as a hunting dog, then yes, walks alone doesn't cut it. But ours is and remains as a pet. No dog shows either. So, for me, 4 walks a day is sufficient. Moreover, we visit dog park at least once a week. Speaking of that, we just arrived back from the dog park visit, where my doggo got to run at full speed quite a lot.


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

My advise to you is try to get out to watch a retriever field trial, hopefully with Goldens competing. There’s nothing like seeing what our wonderful breed was bred to do. When I attended my first field trial and got to see my puppy’s father run, I couldn’t believe the heart, drive, and intelligence of the breed. You watch dogs run and run again and again to retrieve for their owners, no matter the weather or terrain. Never quitting, retrieving birds they see fall and unseen retrieves faithfully following the directions of their handler and using that great golden nose to find that bird. Once you see that you will know that this is a dog that loves to run, work, and retrieve, he needs to. They need to run! Their bodies need that, they are bred to do that. Yes, they can be trained to patiently wait in a blind or boat, waiting for birds to come in and be shot. Or to wait their turn as other dogs retrieve before they get their turn. But that young dog needs physical exercise first before he can be expected to sit or lay quietly by your side and nicely play with his toys or chew his bone without jumping all over you mouthing and trying to get you into his game. If you do your part, exercising him good before you start expecting him to be able to calmly listen and learn to be good boy, in a couple years you’ll have a great dog. When he’s driving you crazy, you’ll have that memory of those amazing field trial golden, charging full speed to an unseen retrieve. Then stopping and turning on a whistle to take their owners direction before again racing off the finish that retrieve. Think of the energy and drive they need to happily do that over and over again. This is the breed of dog you chose to own. Now honor the great heart of our breed with the exercise, training, and love they deserve. These really are the best dogs in the world, in my opinion. But, this isn’t the breed for everyone, they can have high energy and some are very clingy, wanting to be as close as possible to their people 24/7. So please don’t blame the dog for having the need to run and to retrieve, including your hands and his leash, he’s bred to be that way. And if this doesn’t sound like the greatest thing in the world to you, then you might have chosen the wrong breed of dog. Perhaps on of the many companion breeds, not a sporting breed, would be a better fit. It makes me so sad when I see those high drive Goldens with people that can’t appreciate what they have.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

StarBright said:


> It makes me so sad when I see those high drive Goldens with people that can’t appreciate what they have.


Sure, you may get sad since not all folks utilize their GRs at their fullest, as GRs were bred to, to retrieve. But do they have to? Many GRs are used as service dogs (e.g leading visually impaired), therapy dogs, while bulk of them are kept as pets, without any actual work. Due to GRs nature, they are known to make excellent pets and family dogs.

Ours is also a pet, like thousands of other GRs out there. And our doggo role isn't to retrieve small game, but instead to be a family dog.

Now, if you like to feel sad/sorry for dogs, then i suggest feeling sad/sorry for neglected and abandoned dogs.
E.g Hope For Paws, youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdu8QrpJd6rdHU9fHl8J01A

IMHO, every dog deserves to have a safe home with loving human, regardless if doggo is kept as a family dog or working dog.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> So, for me, 4 walks a day is sufficient.


Good for you. It isn't sufficient for a retriever


Aeacus said:


> Moreover, we visit dog park at least once a week.


🤦‍♂️


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> 🤦‍♂️


If you can not accept that i don't have the same amenities as you have, then we have nothing to talk about.


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

Aeacus said:


> Internet doesn't cause heated arguments on it's own, just like traffic on the roads doesn't cause road rage. It is up to individuals themselves, if to be nice and friendly or arrogant and rude.
> 
> Now, i've had loads of different discussions on different forums, and even when there's disagreement, knowledgeable people agree to disagree, ending the discussion. But it's the weak-minded people, who resort to Ad Hominem, since that's all they know.
> 
> ...





Aeacus said:


> Many GRs are used as service dogs (e.g leading visually impaired), therapy. Due to GRs nature, they are known to make excellent pets and family dogs.
> 
> Ours is also a pet, like thousands of other GRs out the





Aeacus said:


> Sure, you may get sad since not all folks utilize their GRs at their fullest, as GRs were bred to, to retrieve. But do they have to? Many GRs are used as service dogs (e.g leading visually impaired), therapy dogs, while bulk of them are kept as pets, without any actual work. Due to GRs nature, they are known to make excellent pets and family dogs.
> 
> Ours is also a pet, like thousands of other GRs out there. And our doggo role isn't to retrieve small game, but instead to be a family dog.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that in the US most reputable non-profit organizations that provide service dogs do their own breeding. They strive to breed Goldens with a personality geared for service work.


----------



## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

I haven’t read all the replies so someone else may have said this already. I agree with the exercise suggestion. Tire your dog out first then work on training and play. Make training fun.

Punishment only works if it happened immediately, preferably while he is in the air on a jump or just before his feet leave the ground. Otherwise he won’t associate the correction with the behavior. If you give punishment it must be strong enough to stop the behavior followed by even higher rewards than the level of punishment. If you can’t do that, then don’t punish. A soft dog needs milder corrections. a harder dog can take a higher level but only as much as you need to get his attention to stop the unwanted behavior.

You can use negative reinforcement, which is taking away something pleasurable just as the behavior occurs. Again, timing is everything and you must anticipate what he’s going to do before he does it. My dogs lean down before they jump to get a good spring,so if I see them do that, I can stop them before they jump.

Instead of negatives, there is something else you can do first. Put solid, foolproof obedience on him so he is watching and listening to you instead of plotting ways to get into trouble, like jumping. Just kidding about the plotting,dogs don’t do that, they act in the moment. Put him into a Place or a Down stay and make him stay there until the initial excitement is gone. He may greet a guest if his feet stay on the floor, or he is sitting and doesn’t move. Or maybe he never greets a guest but must keep a distance during the visit. There is no reason a dog needs to harass people in your home.


----------



## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

GoldenDude said:


> Keep in mind that in the US most reputable non-profit organizations that provide service dogs do their own breeding. They strive to breed Goldens with a personality geared for service work.


They are usually exceptionally calm and quiet dogs.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

Dogsport said:


> Punishment only works if it happened immediately, preferably while he is in the air on a jump or just before his feet leave the ground. Otherwise he won’t associate the correction with the behavior.


We are aware that for doggos, any correction/praise is only for the very last task they did. And we are only correcting/praising for the last task.



Dogsport said:


> Again, timing is everything and you must anticipate what he’s going to do before he does it. My dogs lean down before they jump to get a good spring,so if I see them do that, I can stop them before they jump.


Our doggo doesn't lean down prior to his jump. Also, his jump is only front paws off the ground. Though, while i can not pinpoint the exact millisecond when our doggo wants to jump, i know that when he is very excited, he might jump up on us. Though, jumping up has been reduced greatly, since he knows that it isn't okay to jump up. But sometimes, he still jumps up on us, when he forgets the rules (happens only when he is very excited).



Dogsport said:


> Put him into a Place or a Down stay and make him stay there until the initial excitement is gone.


We are currently in the process of teaching him "sit + wait" and "lay down + wait". It goes on quite well. Though, we can't tell when the initial excitement is gone. Tail stops wagging? Or raised tail comes back down?


----------



## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

Aeacus said:


> We are currently in the process of teaching him "sit + wait" and "lay down + wait". It goes on quite well. Though, we can't tell when the initial excitement is gone. Tail stops wagging? Or raised tail comes back down?


The best way we've determined that the excitement has passed is evaluating how he takes the treat. We have to remind him "gentle," and if he takes it slowly without chomping on your fingers, he's good to go. Takes a lot of restraint and thinking for a puppy to do that. If he does chomp on your fingers and you feel it, that's still the lizard brain doing the thinking, and he should stay in "place" or "lay and wait" mode longer.


----------



## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

Aeacus said:


> We are aware that for doggos, any correction/praise is only for the very last task they did. And we are only correcting/praising for the last task.
> 
> *Last task, but immediately, either during or a second after. Otherwise they won’t make the connection*.
> 
> ...


*With my dog, it’s when he’s calm. I can literally see him settle and return to a calm state. My dogs now are high drive, active working dogs, so their excitement is obvious and when the drive subsides, they become calm and mellow.*


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

goldielynn said:


> The best way we've determined that the excitement has passed is evaluating how he takes the treat. We have to remind him "gentle," and if he takes it slowly without chomping on your fingers, he's good to go. Takes a lot of restraint and thinking for a puppy to do that. If he does chomp on your fingers and you feel it, that's still the lizard brain doing the thinking, and he should stay in "place" or "lay and wait" mode longer.


Well, i'm not sure i can tell by giving treats if the excitement is gone  , since i have two different ways of giving him treats and never has he nipped my fingers while giving treats.
1. I place treat in the middle of open palm and he then takes it. <- Had to do it when doggo was younger, just in case 2 m.o. pup might bite the hand. I still use this technique, especially when giving treats to other dogs, with whom i'm not sure if they finger bite.
2. I give treat between 2-3 fingers. But somehow (i don't know how), i can tell when mouth is open and i've even used middle finger to push the treat alongside his tongue a bit further in. Never gotten my fingers bit.

My missus, in the other hand, did get a finger nip out of our doggo, during obedience class. Obedience class teacher then suggested for her, to wear gloves, if doggo has tendency to nip fingers.

When i have several treats at hand, and need to give them one-by-one, i prefer opening up my 2nd, then 3rd, 4th and lastly 5th finger, releasing treats gradually. Obedience class teacher didn't get that technique at all (despite all dog owners in class using it) and showed us that she instead opens up 5th, then 4th, 3rd and lastly 2nd finger, when giving treats gradually. And of course, hand placement is different in front of the dog's nose.

What our pup does, when he is excited and is getting treats, is slobber. And a lot. Here, i'm not sure i can tell the excitement by slobber, since when doggo knows that he is getting more than 1 treat, slobber will start to come. Often even before getting the 1st treat. (He smells it.)


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> Sure, you may get sad since not all folks utilize their GRs at their fullest, as GRs were bred to, to retrieve. But do they have to? Many GRs are used as service dogs (e.g leading visually impaired), therapy dogs, while bulk of them are kept as pets, without any actual work. Due to GRs nature, they are known to make excellent pets and family dogs.
> 
> Ours is also a pet, like thousands of other GRs out there. And our doggo role isn't to retrieve small game, but instead to be a family dog.
> 
> ...


The good field/performance breeders I know usually sell to working homes. We used to regularly find young adolescent Goldens in shelters fairly often. Pet breeders selling their pups to anyone, the poor pups ended up getting dropped off at the shelters because they were out of control at around 6 to 18 months of age. We used to regularly adopt and rehabilitate them. Mostly exercise, training and correcting all the bad habits they had learned from their neglect. All of them did end up being great dogs. Most didn’t get shown further than just getting their AKC CD’s and a few CGC’s. None did field work, but all of them got to retrieve go hiking regularly and we’re our much loved pets. My point is the only reason these dogs got dumped at shelters was because they were sold to people that failed to give them the exercise and training that most Goldens need growing up. Their breeders and owners failed them. Not one of these Goldens we adopted was defective. One nearly 2 year old girl we adopted was more high energy. So we did end up doing advanced obedience training. She ended up earning her Obedience Championship and is in the Golden Retriever Club of America’s Obedience Hall of Fame. So yes, I do feel sad when I see a high energy Golden that is treated like a unruly pest. When it’s really a Diamond in the rough.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

StarBright said:


> I do feel sad when I see a high energy Golden that is treated like a unruly pest.


Are you saying that i treat my doggo as "unruly pest"?


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> Are you saying that i treat my doggo as "unruly pest"?
> [/QUOTE
> 
> No, that’s the way those shelter Goldens we adopted were treated when they were dumped by their owners.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

StarBright said:


> No, that’s the way those shelter Goldens we adopted were treated when they were dumped by their owners.


Yet, in your opinion, i don't appreciate my GR enough. Or am i wrong?


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> Yet, in your opinion, i don't appreciate my GR enough. Or am i wrong?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Fascinating


----------



## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

People here are only trying to help. If you don’t care for the advice or it doesn’t work for you, you are free to ignore it. i think it’s a mistake to expect a pet dog to need less training than a field or show dog. Every dog benefits from training and a trained dog is a happier dog in my experience, pet or otherwise. I have a male dog that was bred to work. I do fun work but it’s work just the same. If he doesn’t get that outlet, he gets into mischief. He is a pet dog.


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> Yet, in your opinion, i don't appreciate my GR enough. Or am i wrong?



I think we have a cultural difference in the way we see pets. So we shall agree to disagree over the way each of us believes they should be treated. Here in the USA, I have seen great dogs that their owners and breeders have failed, so the dogs end up in shelters. Often they end up being euthanized. Fortunately the Golden Retriever clubs here in the USA now have great rescues that pull the Golden Retrievers from shelters so they can be fostered and placed in good homes. So it is pretty rare to see a golden retriever in a shelter now. Most dogs end up in shelters, in my opinion, because people buy dogs without first researching what that particular breed was bred to do. So when the dog acts normal for it’s breed, the dog gets dumped. So far you have not done this, you are reaching out for help. I am thankful for that. But please consider what your dog was bred to do. No, you don’t need to hunt with your dog, for him to be happy. But he does need an outlet for his energy and his retrieving and scenting instincts. Most Goldens do settle down by the time they’re 2-3 yrs old. And can be much easier to fulfill their energy needs. Though that’s not always true if you happen to have a high energy field bred golden. I have no idea what the breeding is of your golden. So hopefully for you and him he’ll get through his adolescence and settle into being a perfect pet for you.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

StarBright said:


> Here in the USA


In this side of the pond (Atlantic Ocean), people are far more informed and do a lot of research, before deciding to take a pure breed dog for themselves, especially since pure breed dogs here cost a lot and if anyone wants a "dog" for companion, there are loads of mutts (mongrels) to choose from, with very little cost for the dog, if any cost at all (taken from shelter).

In dog shelters, we only have mutts, since all pure breed dogs must be (by law), and are microchipped. When pure breed dog gets lost and is then found by someone else, any vet in Estonia can read the microchip and contact the dog owner, to return their buddy. In the event of pure breed owner not being able to take care of their dog (illness, death etc), dog is returned to the breeder, who then either keeps the dog for themselves, or re-homes the doggo. Pure breed dogs will not end up in the shelter.

Regarding dogs (or all pets in that regard), we have a good moral high ground here and due to that, puppy mills are extremely rare here. Once found, mills are shut down by our Agriculture And Food Board, with all dogs confiscated. But apparently puppy mills are a big thing in USA (for what i've read), where federal government doing little, if any, to stop this. And state of Missouri seems to be the worst in regards of puppy mills.

Oh, our pet stores won't sell dogs or cats. Best you could get from pet store, are small fish or few parrots. And that's it. Due to that, there is little, if any, market for dogs from puppy mills. Word of mouth is essentially the only way to sell puppy mill dogs. But then, they will be mutts and have little value.

Edit:
Forgot one thing; Pure breed dogs are actually in short supply here and we had to wait for half a year before we got our GR (including 2 months when pup was born until it was ready for forever home at 8w). It's not like i had an idea and went out and bought a puppy.



StarBright said:


> I have no idea what the breeding is of your golden.


I checked out our pup's breeder homepage and found this:



> Our aim is to breed wholesome, balanced, healthy golden retrievers with the appropriate temperament, breed type and ability to work. The key word for us is 'balance', as we try not to overly focus on one aspect without forgetting the importance of the dog as a whole. Gundog training is important to us for many reasons, but all in all we believe that a dog that works well also has all the attributes a good pet needs - intelligence, working ability, biddability, flexibility, confidence, ability to retrieve (let's be honest, who doesn't like a pair of slippers, a newspaper, or a slimy chewed up toy brought to their bed in the morning ), and so essential to preserving the golden temperament of the breed we all know and love. All the dogs we use in breeding have been health tested, but when making our breeding choices, we additionally take into account health aspects and issues that can't yet be tested for, since as mentioned previously, our main focus and aim is to breed happy and healthy dogs who live long, wholesome and active lives. We value breed type and balance in the conformation of our dogs, and prefer our goldens looking like goldens whilst moving effortlessly and as if they could easily do a day's work.


So, i have a balanced GR.


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> In this side of the pond (Atlantic Ocean), people are far more informed and do a lot of research, before deciding to take a pure breed dog for themselves, especially since pure breed dogs here cost a lot and if anyone wants a "dog" for companion, there are loads of mutts (mongrels) to choose from, with very little cost for the dog, if any cost at all (taken from shelter).
> 
> In dog shelters, we only have mutts, since all pure breed dogs must be (by law), and are microchipped. When pure breed dog gets lost and is then found by someone else, any vet in Estonia can read the microchip and contact the dog owner, to return their buddy. In the event of pure breed owner not being able to take care of their dog (illness, death etc), dog is returned to the breeder, who then either keeps the dog for themselves, or re-homes the doggo. Pure breed dogs will not end up in the shelter.
> 
> ...



That is wonderful to hear the way the people in your Country value their dogs. It is shameful the way so many in our Country just throw away their pets into shelters or let them roam unaltered.Thankfully it’s better for Goldens here. But my local shelter is full of breeds like Husky’s, German Shepherds and Pit Bulls, so many bad breeders and not enough rescues for these breeds. Of course there are many mixes too, even though my city has mandatory spay/neuter and microchip laws for dogs 4 months and older.


----------



## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

Aeacus said:


> In this side of the pond (Atlantic Ocean), people are far more informed and do a lot of research, before deciding to take a pure breed dog for themselves, especially since pure breed dogs here cost a lot and if anyone wants a "dog" for companion, there are loads of mutts (mongrels) to choose from, with very little cost for the dog, if any cost at all (taken from shelter).
> 
> In dog shelters, we only have mutts, since all pure breed dogs must be (by law), and are microchipped. When pure breed dog gets lost and is then found by someone else, any vet in Estonia can read the microchip and contact the dog owner, to return their buddy. In the event of pure breed owner not being able to take care of their dog (illness, death etc), dog is returned to the breeder, who then either keeps the dog for themselves, or re-homes the doggo. Pure breed dogs will not end up in the shelter.
> 
> ...


Since your breeder seems to also love and care for the breed, that might be your best resource in finding solutions to the issues you have with your pup. Since the breeder is very familiar with the temperament of his dogs, he would know the best training method and training tips that would work for your pup. All the best to you and your doggo.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

StarBright said:


> But my local shelter is full of breeds like Husky’s, German Shepherds and Pit Bulls


Husky's are rare here. My guess, their temperament, where even experienced dog owner can struggle with them.
German Shepherds are quite common here, mostly used in Police service or property guards in a fenced yard.
And i have yet to see a Pit Bull with my own eyes. Rottweiler is also rare and haven't seen none in my city.
Most dogs here are smaller breeds, e.g Dachshund, Spaniel, Terrier, French Bulldog, Beagle, Shiba Inu etc. GRs and Labs are also quite common. Same with Chow Chow. Oh Collies and their variants too.

Our doggo's best buddy is Sheltie (5 y.o male). 2nd best buddy is Cane Corso (8 y.o male).  1st time i met with Cane Corso, when out for a walk with our (then 4 month pup), gave me a good scare. 😅 For obvious reasons. Turned out to be very well trained Cane Corso, with whom our doggo is buddy now. 3rd buddy would be Husky (5 y.o female), with whom we've met in dog park several times.



StarBright said:


> Since the breeder is very familiar with the temperament of his dogs, he would know the best training method and training tips that would work for your pup. All the best to you and your doggo.


Actually, all our hints, tips and everything else we have trouble/issues with, has come from our breeder. We communicated a lot when we 1st got our pup. Now, doggo is older and for the most part, we can manage with him. Even our breeder said that for the 1st time owners, we've done really well. Of course, nobody is perfect and we've made some mistakes. However, i have no issues for asking help. Heck, i even endured the hardship i got here, 5 pages and still going on.  (Makes me wonder, why is my topic here so popular?  )


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> Makes me wonder, why is my topic here so popular?


It's not the topic, it's the comedy.


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

SRW said:


> It's not the topic, it's the comedy.


That’s about 98% all the forum is good for. The remaining 2% is clearance checks for new puppy buyers.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

GoldenDude said:


> That’s about 98% all the forum is good for. The remaining 2% is clearance checks for new puppy buyers.


Plenty of comedy but I think there is more than 2% helpful info.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

GoldenDude said:


> That’s about 98% all the forum is good for. The remaining 2% is clearance checks for new puppy buyers.


It’s also good for advice on serious health issues and first hand experience. I guess you have to be intelligent enough to decipher the online dribble from actual knowledge, but that’s life these days.


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

SRW said:


> Plenty of comedy but I think there is more than 2% helpful info.


If you need to tell yourself that….


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> It’s also good for advice on serious health issues and first hand experience. I guess you have to be intelligent enough to decipher the online dribble from actual knowledge, but that’s life these days.


People can call me stupid. it doesn’t offend me. (Although I like it best when people sing Don’t Be Stupid to me. I love me some Shania Twain. Mutt definitely wasn’t a loyal Golden Retriever, but he was a dirty dog.) There seems to be way more dribble/comedy than much else, especially if you have a different opinion and express it. I fully subscribe to the statement in my signature.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

GoldenDude said:


> There seems to be way more dribble/comedy than much else, especially if you have a different opinion and express it.


Then why bother with moderating?


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

SRW said:


> Then why bother with moderating?


To protect the site against spammers. We do way more checking for spam than we do moderating comments. The number of spam posts and attempts to join by spammers are why I tell peeps not to post their email address and/or phone number. People would be surprised at the spam efforts.

Also, clearance checks. I don’t like back yard breeders. I want to support any site that helps educate about the evils of back yard breeders.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

GoldenDude said:


> To protect the site against spammers. We do way more checking for spam than we do moderating comments. The number of spam posts and attempts to join by spammers are why I tell peeps not to post their email address and/or phone number. People would be surprised at the spam efforts.


We appreciate it but I wonder why you think it is worth protecting.


----------



## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

SRW said:


> We appreciate it but I wonder why you think it is worth protecting.


For the clearance checks. But do I think protecting a lot of the comments arguing about food, training equipment, or training techniques is worth it? Nope. So I do it for the health of puppies. And the doggy pictures.


----------



## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

GoldenDude said:


> That’s about 98% all the forum is good for. The remaining 2% is clearance checks for new puppy buyers.


That’s kind of sad. The humor is worth it though. Am I wasting my time trying to help people with behavior problems?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Dogsport said:


> Am I wasting my time trying to help people with behavior problems?


No, some people actually want help and want to learn how to train dogs.
There are also people who post questions but are really just fishing for an answer that fits their predetermined ideas about how to train dogs.


----------



## Aeacus (Sep 1, 2021)

GoldenDude said:


> That’s about 98% all the forum is good for. The remaining 2% is clearance checks for new puppy buyers.


And it doesn't help, that in this forum, there is no rule against offtopic chatter or topic hijack. This, GR forums, would be my 1st forum which doesn't have this rule. And the lack of this rule is best evidenced in this very topic, which started out with a question about two different methods, but which spiraled into overall bad behavior correction discussion. Of course, there are some offtopic replies here and there and as of now, topic ends with discussion about GR forums in general. Are any of this offtopic needed in my topic?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Aeacus said:


> Are any of this offtopic needed in my topic?


You argued with everybody that tried to help. Nobody cares about your topic and the thread would’ve died long ago if it hadn’t moved on to other subjects.
Hope you’re making progress with your doggo🙄


----------



## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

Aeacus said:


> And it doesn't help, that in this forum, there is no rule against offtopic chatter or topic hijack. This, GR forums, would be my 1st forum which doesn't have this rule. And the lack of this rule is best evidenced in this very topic, which started out with a question about two different methods, but which spiraled into overall bad behavior correction discussion. Of course, there are some offtopic replies here and there and as of now, topic ends with discussion about GR forums in general. Are any of this offtopic needed in my topic?


If you feel that the thread has been derailed, or you have received sufficient responses to your inquiries, you may request that the thread is closed since you are the OP (original poster). If you are still looking for support to your original questions, expect that there will be tangents as members discuss-after all, this is a public board.

Not all forums are the same, and for GRF, the mod team is not here to police the individual comments unless a rule is violated or there is a spammer on the board, neither of which has been observed here.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

You asked a very specific question and your two specified methods of “training” were both awful. If you only wished to receive “method 1” or “method 2” answers, you should have started a poll.

As it is, the forum does not have an “off topic” rule as that is very subjective. IMO every reply you got with training advice is ON topic. What is OFF topic is your discussion of your dislike of the rules. You are more than welcome to take your questions to another forum. You got some very good advice here. It is your choice to dislike it.

Further discussion of the rules will result in permanent closure of this thread.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

This thread has been closed at the OP’s request.


----------

