# Question Re: Collars in Obedience class



## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*Training collars*

I like the prong for just about everything not just dogs that pull. Using a prong that is fitted well enables the handler make a small movement of their hand for a correction. It sounds like you understand this. There are some dogs that shut down when they wear a prong. Maybe that what she is talking about. You can train with a flat buckle collar and leash and I have seen dogs do better on the buckle collar. That said I train with a prong. Power steering and very small effective corrections. I like to think of it as a communication tool.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Augie's classes have specified no choke chains, but other than that, people just use whatever they normally use to walk their dog. It hasn't been an issue or something I ever thought about. Never did any "tugs for correction" either! I think you're worrying too much  Just show up.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

For sure--dont worry--it is best if you can just snap a lead on the collar and go in the future. 

Training devices are just that--for training--not supposed to be forever. 

There is the whole pull no go method of training too--i.e. you pull-I stop. 

Just go and see what they have to say--what is they say in 12 step groups? Take what you like and leave the rest?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree. In fact, I don't correct during heelwork training. Actually, I don't even use a leash at all  I clicker train, so I don't need a leash or collar.

I would use a prong on a puller. I also do give corrections if, say, I'm on a walk around the block and my dog starts tugging or suddenly pulls towards something, bc I don't allow those things- I expect a loose leash and all my dogs ignore other dogs, passersby, etc- and no barking, etc. However, I walk my dogs with normal collars, or martingale style ones. I only use a choker to take photos (I can't find my Golden Retriever sized show leads, so I fake it with a choker  )


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Another thought--if you ever plan of testing for the CGC --you can't use any training collars--will have to be a flat buckle of some kind. At least that is what the website says....


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## Scarecrow's Mom (Aug 7, 2006)

Ok well I think I grasp the concept a bit better now. I was just stepping into a new world after a lot of time and things had changed. Thank you all for the help navigating my way up to present day techniques. 

~Emily


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## ID_Hannah (Jun 8, 2006)

Hi Emily,

Yep, you pretty much got the run down correct... It seems to be one of the current trains of thought with dog trainers. Choke, no. Halti, no. Prong, yes. 

Maybe someone can come up with it... but I've seen a study done in Europe somewhere that followed many dogs, half using chokers and half using prongs. At the end of their natural lives an autopsy of sorts was performed. The dogs who'd used the chokers had much higher percentage of injuries than the prongs. Head halters don't train the dogs in themselves, but are a successful tool for some people/dogs.

I would say, use what your instructor wants you to use in class. Then you can follow their directions, etc. Use what works for you when you're training at home. By all means, TRY all the tools. See how well Dutchess does, go from there. 

Most likely you won't see the "tug" correction you remember. Many instructors are more positive based than that now. But I agree with ACC, with my dogs I find occasional corrections necessary, but not during training. I think along the lines of... How can I tell the dog he's doing it wrong if he doesn't know what he's suppose to be doing? 

Oh, and a side note on CGC. AKC says "All tests must be performed on leash. Dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars made of leather, fabric, or chain." So choke chains are appropriate, but not prongs or halti types.

Good luck with your class! My golden boys are famous for being the class clowns. I think most important part is to have fun with training... End every training session, formal or informal at home, really positively/successfully so Dutchess is thrilled to start her next training session.


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## Scarecrow's Mom (Aug 7, 2006)

Hey Hannah, 

I can say unequivocally that Dutchess thanks you!!  I do also, I get the concepts and I gotta say 2 things that people outside of here said to me are worth noting. First my mom said, "Bottom line Em, you have a golden, as nice as she is, it won't matter what you put on her."
And second one of my oldest friends who also rides horses like me, "You know as well as I do Em that a 'more severe' bit on any horse is only as strong as the person whose hands are holding it. You have soft hands, I think you're skill with horses and the reins will help you to not yank Dutchess, where newbies may make more dramatic movements."

So thats what my positive circle of friends is reporting. So we wait til our first class 2/21 and we'll see in person how things actually work out. 

Thanks again to everyone. 

~Emily


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

Our current trainer does use a Herm Sprenger slip (choke) collar and leather leash with Wiggles. When he shows us how to do a correction on the leash, it is a loose-snap(tight)-loose motion. In fact, when used correctly, you shouldn't be choking the dog. Wiggles is collar savvy and when you put a flat buckle collar on him, he KNOWS the difference and reverts back to pulling. On a slip collar, he is more mindful and can sense when a correction might be coming so he doesn't pull as much.

We are still working on heeling with him, but he has come a long way with this trainer because the clicker training didn't work for him. I also ordered a prong collar though because on windy days, the amount of smells in the air drive him over the edge and his prey drive is so high I can't control walking down the street. He'll lunge at EVERYTHING.



Scarecrow's Mom said:


> Ok so Dutchess and I are nearing the first day of class.
> 
> I spoke to a woman from the club the other day and in the conversation we spoke about the things we needed at the first class. Well I aksed about collars since my last experience with classes was with my mom and our family golden in oh 1988.
> 
> ...


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I don't exactly agree with everything said by this trainer, and for one would be the choke collar. The choke collar does not choke a dog, if it is put on correctly, which there is a correct way to put that on it does not choke. I was shown this myself by a trainer brought in this summer who also trained under police dogs as well as was brought in a cadavor dog for training. There is no safe collar if used incorrectly, not even a plain buckle collar. I know of that report, but some things are lacking in that report if I remember correctly. In the wrong hands a choke collar is dangerous, but that also goes for any other collar. With that said, it isn't my preferred collar, although I have used it but prefer the prong collar. 

Fit of collar, incorrect corrections given can all lead to problems no matter what the collar type. The choke collar when put through the ring is sopposed to look like a "P", many people don't know this and slip it through wrong and then it will not release correctly after a correction. These types of collars are sopposed to be high up, there not sopposed to hang down like a necklace. The pinch is sopposed to fit snug, it shouldn't be able to be turned. I myself have seen dogs in Halti's that I feared for because the owners didn't know how use them, yet many will say there a safer means of a tool which in the wrong hands simply they are not.

Now to the plain collar and leash, for a no puller this would be fine. If it's a puppy, you work with treats first. The collar itself doesn't do the training, the handler does. The collar just helps to reinforce a command already taught.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I am wondering about what collar to use, too, as I plan to enroll in another round of obedience classes next month.
What exactly is a leash correction? Does it require a certain kind of collar?
What do people have to say about the martingale collar? I got one (at my Petsmart obedience class instructor's suggestion) but I don't think I really know how to use it. 
My instructor said it should be used high up on the neck. Fine, except it keeps slipping down unless I am holding the leash about 2 inches away from it to keep it taut. I don't think that's right, is it? So, I haven't really used it at all.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

The problem with a choke collar is that it needs to be able to fit over your dog's head and it will slip down. If you look at leerburg.com, they have articles on using a nylon snap collar which is a slip collar with a snap so you don't have to pull it over the head (also a dominant dog or Volhard collar). The collar is suppose to be sized about an inch wider than the neck circumference high up behind the ears.

I didn't find a martingale collar that effective (in fact, I have 2 new ones if anyone is interested, PM me) and the correction wasn't much better than on a buckle collar.

The correction I use is a quick pop and release so that the leash remains slack before and after. I have to put a lot of effort to pop on a slip collar for Wiggles to respond to me. When I use a prong collar, I don't have to pop it hard at all and it's almost a flick of a wrist! Like Goldndust (Dianna), I put the prong collar on Wiggles very snug behind the ears. I can't even turn the collar at all. I originally had one link more, but it would slide down....my trainer thinks I should have that extra link in because he thinks it's too tight...

As for why I use the prong? Control of the dog in public situations. Not every pedestrian in my neighbourhood is a dog lover and Wiggles loves to chase cars, rabbits, runners etc so I've had a few incidents where he almost pulled me into traffic. At that point, I had it and ordered the collar because he was jeopardizing our safety on icy streets. I tried a lot of different collars and even the Easy Walk Harness before deciding on the prong and I don't regret the decision.


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## Bogart'sMom (Sep 16, 2005)

Well, my little guy learned to walk nicely on the leash with a regular harness on he would never pull with that on. We did the puppyclasses and basic obedience classes all with the harness on. Even now when I put the harness on him he doesn't pull and stays right with me. Now at obedience class I have a regular buckle collar on him most classes I have a little tab on him so I can grab him easier but when it's his turn he is off leash most of the time because I find holding the leash sometimes a pain in the butt. We clicker in class we got tought how to keep our dogs attention. Yes we do food rewards but not everytime it does get faded out when they know the behavior. Bogart loves obedience so I get all the attention from him walking by the other dogs he doesn't care. If he does stray off for a sec I have my ways to get his attention back. Bogart would not do well with a choke collar or a prong collar he is a very soft dog and he would shot down when the correction is to harsh. He starts itching his collar if he does do a short pull against it because he doesn't like the sensation of that tug.
Elke, ZsaZsa and Bogart


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## Jazz's Mom (Feb 26, 2007)

Our first week of obedience class we used a regular collar. I was so sore the next day from trying to keep Jazz from saying hello to everyone. For the next class (and everyone after that) we used a gentle leader on the instructor's advice. It made all the difference in the world. Of course he hated it and would sulk in class, but at least I was able to control him. We rarely used it outside of class though, because we weren't often surrounded by a group of people and dogs.


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## Golden parent (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with the gentle leader comment. We tried everything to keep our goldens from pulling. They each went through a phase where they were out of control on walks- pulling and weaving all over the place. It made walking them truly exhausting. After working with them on the gentle leader, they are under control and our walks are much more enjoyable. They did paw the leader to try to remove it initially, but they just have to get used to it. Once they do (about 4-5 walks), they stop pulling and....get this...walk with you! It works by hooking the leash under their snout instead of on the collar. That way, when they try to pull, they pull their whole head sideways. The fact that our walks are no longer a mobile wrestling match make us walk our dogs MORE OFTEN which is better for all of us. 
The only thing I dislike about the gentle leader is the appearance. It looks a bit like a muzzle, and does frighten some people initially. As a side note, we looked at the haltee, but personally found it a cheaper construction which was more cumbersome to work with. However, we have friends that love theirs....so to each their own.

I hope this helps!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I will assume the OP as well as others who have posted here haven't yet search the forum for previous threads on collars... so let me try to summarize here... all collar types have advantages and disadvantages... all collar types can be cruel and dangerous when use improperly. All collars that are made to be fitted to the neck, work best when located up high (basically just behind the ears)... and to be 'popped' either up-wards or sideways but never back-wards. Also... different dogs respond differently to different collars and thus all the differing opinions generated about which is best.

To add to this I will now insert my own opinions and instructions about using collars and leashes to heel your dog properly. **I personally have never used any halter type collars (though I know lotsa dog owners who have and do) so these types of collars are not considered in the following remarks.** First, the collar MUST be fitted properly and be located very high-up on the neck. Always 'pop' the leash in a straight upward motion, unless your dog is really tall in relation to your arm length then 'pop' it sideways. The most common mistake I see most owners make is to allow the dog to wander at will at the end of the leash and then unwittingly allow a steady tension to 'creep into' the heel. I suggest a short leash, like 12" to 18" in length, NO MORE! This allows the proper correction angle and keeps the collar from slipping down the neck. Walk at a relatively quick pace... unless you've got an old debilitated dog or an extremely overweight dog, a 'slow-pokie' plodding pace is sheer torture for just about any healthy dog... by plodding you are just asking for your dog to fail at proper heeling. Finally, never ever allow a steady tension on the leash to develop. Too often owners allow short periods of light tension pulling, which WILL only increase over time... NEVER allow it in the first place. If you have to 'pop' the leash 50 times in a row, just do it! because eventually your dog will give in and begin understanding the true meaning of "heel", otherwise you'll be searching for 'collar solutions' forever. Also stand up straight, head held high, shoulders back and walk with a 'purpose in your stride'... don't pay attention to your dog (okay you can peek out of the corner of your eye), but it should all happen by the 'feel' of the leash... don't lose your 'cool' or yell at your dog... be a like a machine, impersonal in response while being perfectly consistent and relentless. Trust me, in the long run it will end up being considerably less painful for the both of you if your dog learns to heel properly from the start. Oh, and I personally don't have any strong feelings for one collar type over another... I believe its all in how YOU go about teaching your dog to heel and NOT ABOUT THE TYPE OF COLLAR YOU'RE USING.


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## audreyannlow (Mar 5, 2007)

Maybe the class doesn't focus on using corrections to train a dog, which is GOOD. I owner amateur train most of my own dogs with no collar at all, using toys and a target stick. The corrections (distractions and proofing) come later once the dog is already extremely reliable.


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## Judi (Feb 26, 2007)

I use a "slip collar" for training classes as recomended by the Obedience School. Tintale described it well as how to use this aide. As far as the CGC test goes, it is true that the dog must wear a flat collar but it is necessary to train him or her first.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I have mixed feelings about training collars--Monomer made some good points--

I have used the gentle leader, harnesses and prong collars--all with success. BUT--you have to keep in mind they are just for the start of training--not the end. I just use a regular leash on a regular collar now--ty God! 

Training collars/harnesses have lots of benefits, especially for someone that is not accustomed to handling dogs. If the pup is younger--a very fast pace walking is much easier, I typically walk Julie at a heel--always-but as she has gotten better on a flat collar, I relax a bit as long as there is slack on the leash. But that took a LOT of work to get there-


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