# Starting the T and TT



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Rather than hijack a couple of other threads, I figured I'd start a new one.
Just to open this up for discussion...
What skills do you think are necessary before starting the T and/or the TT? At what proficiency level? 
(I don't start Tito on anything until his field trainer tells me to, this is just a general discussion, but since Anney suggested we do the T in this lousy weather it is something I want to ask his trainer about).
I would think you'd have to be hugely solid on the 3 handed cast before you could think of the T. I would think you'd have to be solid on it with the side piles at all distances, from very close to at least 20 or more yards away. 
I would also guess that you'd have to have finished force to pile, with the dog running a straight line with lots of drive to the back pile, 100% of the time.
What else do you need to finish before you start the T?
Oh, probably the whistle sit when heading out. 
What else?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Take a look at those flowcharts I posted in your other thread. They show a logical progression of building skills so that the dog and you have the tools in place to learn the new task. See what Dan has gone through with you and if any of those early steps that come before FTP and T are missing. You'll need those foundations in place. If you want to buy yourself a good training companion to read up on a lot of these concepts the Retriever Journal articles by Mike Lardy have been published as a couple of booklets--one on the basic stuff and one on the more advanced concepts. The one that covers basics is called Training with Mike Lardy v. 1 and it costs around $25.00. The articles go through the steps in his flow chart. Evan's Smartworks program is also laid out very easily, and of course Evan checks in here so you can always ask questions. Again it is Smartworks V1 that covers basics and it is also about $25. I tend to recommend the written articles over the videos as they do explain each step. All of the major programs follow a Rex Carr based program and so have similarities in skills progression and do so because it works!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Shelley, I'll look into the booklets and see if we're missing anything in the basics. I don't think we're going to see much of Dan for the next 3 months, so that will be very helpful.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think I posted what I had done with Slater prior to launching into T work on that thread. Basically, the dog needs basic obedience, 3 handed casting, FTP, and stop on whistle. T is not the culmination or a product of knowing these three basic things unequivocally. It's a learning process. The dog refines and perfects these concepts while progressing through T/TT. 
You have to remember that in field work, it is very difficult and usually fruitless to expect perfection in every aspect. Even Field Champions have to be handled to the blind! If they were perfect they'd line every one. That is why we teach handling, so we can correct and tell the dog where to go when he isn't right. Expecting 100% before moving on is unrealistic. It's also amazing how much the dog learns about the previous learning step, by pushing them on to the next step. I think of how hard Fisher and I worked on double T but a few months after doing double T, when we were into simple cold blinds, I could go back to double T as a drill and he was perfect. I didn't get that perfection even while working on double T or when I moved on to pattern blinds. By moving on the dog was able to take those skills learned and understand them better when pushed to extend those skills.
My field instructor is not adhere strictly to Lardy's flowchart -- over the years of training her own half-dozen MH's she has refined, deleted and added to her own method. However with Fisher and now with Slater, **I** have to follow the flowchart to a T for my own satisfaction. What I do at the trainer's jives with it, so it all works well. I hope you can have that sort of relationship with your field instructor because I think having the flowchart and Lardy manuals to read at home was immensely helpful.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> You have to remember that in field work, it is very difficult and usually fruitless to expect perfection in every aspect.


I really like this statement. While I am mostly training on my own and with a group I just cannot see the usefulness in grilling my dog on drills to perfection. I think it would be too much pressure and boring. We are almost at single T, following the set-up but only running back piles. She makes the occasional mistake of not spinning the correct direction and I am always asking myself if it is worth it or not to stop and resend her. I imagine it is something that I will always work on.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

BTW--have you not done T work with Tito yet? I assumed you had when you mentioned wagon wheel just because that drill is after T work and toward the back in Evan's first book.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Field work is a process. Each new step is dependent upon the lessons learned previously. Early basics (OB, hold, fetch, walking fetch, stick fetch, FTP and 3 handed casting) need to be solid and polished. You are building all that follows on that foundation. 

There is a difference between knowing what a command is, and "performing" that command consistently with confidence and polish. Pressing forward before the dog really "gets it" is asking for trouble down the road.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

One of the things that I like about Dan is that he assesses my dog, and then gives drills based on what the dog already knows, since Tito is starting as an older dog with a big obedience background.
He's had me doing the wagon wheel with him because, with Tito's obedience background in utility, he already has a very good understanding of pivoting in a heeling position, toward either direction, and of lining (think of the go-outs). Since Tito already knew both basic components of the drill, there was no reason not to do it. In fact, it's been very easy for him and we don't do it too often because of that.
While Mike Lardy's program, or Evan's, is excellent, it doesn't (can't) take into account variations in the dogs. 
As far as the "T", we do the UKC obedience gloves, which basically is a mini-T. He gets sent to the center of the ring, told to sit, and then cast toward one of the 3 gloves, which are to his right, his left, and directly behind him. So we've done that, and he's pretty good at it. But no, we have not put together the pieces into the formal T drill yet. As with a lot of things we've done, I suspect Dan wants to do it with Tito the first few times before turning it over to me.
I got Carol Cassity's book, "Building a retriever, Drills and More" and I love it. Dan also has it, so he's picked out some stuff for me to do.
While I agree that drilling to perfection is boring IF YOU DO THE SAME DRILL I think that doing different drills, that teach the same skill, is invaluable. We do our casting practice in a variety of ways, not always the same place/drill with him sitting facing me and piles in 3 locations. Sometimes I cast him to toys. Sometimes to food bowls with a treat or two in them. Sometimes even to his dinner dish, LOL. It tells me if he TRULY understands the skill, or has learned the one drill which has been done over and over. In my mind, he needs to be able to turn in the correct direction, for example, no matter where we are or what's behind him that he's being sent to. If he's not 100% in all situations, (ok, 95) then he doesn't *really* know it and I don't think we should move on to things that utilize this basic skill.
Maybe because we've made enough mistakes in competitive obedience, I agree with Swampcollie that the dog needs to be solid and polished before you build on the skill in any way. You *think* the dog knows it, with total confidence, and then you get in a show (or hunt test) situation and find out that it all falls apart. It's amazing that a dog who can do, for example, the articles happily and correctly 100 times in a row in training, or fun matches, gets in a show and picks up the wrong one. Or a dog who does his directed jumping 100% correctly ALL the time in training takes a wrong jump in a show. But it sure does happen!
By now I've completely forgotten what I was trying to say


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Rather than hijack a couple of other threads, I figured I'd start a new one.
> Just to open this up for discussion...
> What skills do you think are necessary before starting the T and/or the TT? At what proficiency level?
> What else do you need to finish before you start the T?
> ...


Essentials for beginning land T work:


Formalized obedience (not merely taught – formalized; reliable under high distraction)
Force Fetch; all steps, including force to pile up to at least 100 yards
3-handed casting, including two-hands Back
Conditioning to sit to whistle remotely (preferably e-collar conditioned)
Mini-T








 
Competency at all of these skills should be to reliable levels demonstrated by willingness to readily comply, even in the presence of maximum distraction, and in the presence of pressure. Dogs don’t become perfect. But they do become reliable through thorough training. They remain reliable through maintenance.

Just prior to beginning land T’s it’s a great idea to review the goals and purposes of the exercise, and make sure to keep a journal of your progress, and of any issues the dog has along the way.

EvanG


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

As a techie type, I am always searching for an on-line or electronic training journal - any suggestions?



EvanG said:


> Essentials for beginning land T work:
> 
> 
> Formalized obedience (not merely taught – formalized; reliable under high distraction)
> ...


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

sterregold said:


> Take a look at those flowcharts I posted in your other thread. They show a logical progression of building skills so that the dog and you have the tools in place to learn the new task.


Can you post a link to those flowcharts you mentioned above? Thanks


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## Cowtown (Sep 23, 2009)

Discoverer said:


> Can you post a link to those flowcharts you mentioned above? Thanks


Training Flow Chart


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Or this one. http://www.rushcreekpress.com/flowchart.html

EvanG


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

The short video of Oscar retrieving a paint roller at 13 weeks.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Dad I could't hear you in the video. It's supposed to be fun and a really big deal. That tail should be going 90 mph.
Just a suggestion.


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Radarsdad said:


> Dad I could't hear you in the video. It's supposed to be fun and a really big deal. That tail should be going 90 mph.
> Just a suggestion.


Thank you for suggestion. Do you normally give him a treat for successful retrieve or just a big praise? Or both?


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Both if it works but I phase out treats. Big praise whether treats or not. I also tease em' with the roller bumper or toy or whatever to get them amped up. I want to them to chase it and get excited about retrieving.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't give treats when retrieving as it encourages them to drop the bumper/roller in anticipation of getting a treat. The retrieving is the reward!


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

DNL2448 said:


> I don't give treats when retrieving as it encourages them to drop the bumper/roller in anticipation of getting a treat. The retrieving is the reward!


 That's exactly why I questioned as Oscar always drop the roller after retrieve awaiting for his treat. I don't think that's a big deal for a young pup, but I will slow fade the treats out.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

DNL2448 said:


> I don't give treats when retrieving as it encourages them to drop the bumper/roller in anticipation of getting a treat. The retrieving is the reward!


That's the best advice.
I tend to be to Amish with responses. But whatever works the "chasing something" builds the retrieve. You can also run away from them to chase you. At that age I grab them and give them a good scruffing, the heck with the bumper,roller, toy whatever as far as delivering to hand. That's easily fixed later.

Throw it again as quickly as possible and quit with them wanting more.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

When I first started retrieving with Gabby, the ONLY way I could get her to come back to 'me' was a treat. At the time she was more food motivated than retrieving motivated. I also played with her with the paint roller before I would give her a treat. Eventually, the paint roller got more valuable. The only reason I am piping in, is I was sure Gabby was not going to retrieve. Having Teddi who is a "maybe I will, maybe I won't" golden, I was worried. 

Gabby is now 10.5 months old and a RETRIEVING MACHINE!!!!! It wasn't the treats, I don't know I honestly know when or how but it did happen. The biggest thing I see people say is KEEP IT FUN your pup will catch on but don't obsess (like I did). Some just need a little time for the instinct to kick in.


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