# Advise for training an independent dog



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

This is how one of my golden's is. Bernie is content in his own little world. It definitely makes training a lot harder as he's not very biddable, much more interested in pleasing himself than pleasing me. I'm interested in hearing what other's have for training advice because we've encountered similar problems. From what I've learned so far is you have to teach them that in order to get what they want they first have to give you attention. For instance, in hunting class if I can't get Bernie focused he goes in one of the crates on the side for a short time-out and has to watch all the other dogs work. He is NOT a fan of this and is a completely different dog afterwards. Its definitely not easy!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

She would probably benefit from some training that would emphasize that all good things come from you, and that she is rewarded when she defers to you. 

One thing we have done is to sit quietly with dog at feet, and whenever dog even turns head towards the human, it gets a "good dog!" and a treat. Continue to where the dog gets a treat for making eye contact with you. Teaches them to always be checking for you and knowing that you notice them

Also, check out a training called Nothing in life is free, also called NIFL. There's a lot of info on here and on the Internet about it. It's a great approach and teaches a dog to focus on its human to get what it wants and needs.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

I agree that the NILF concept for the independent dog works well. Another thing to work on is to realize that the independent dog need to respect you as opposed to the average dog who wants to please you. You have try to say commands only once and insist upon compliance. Here means here and sit means sit. 

An independent dog will often be slow to respond to a command that they know quite well. This is often called giving you "the paw". It is a slippery slope since the natural (human) response is to up the reward and repeat the command. This can lower your standing in the dogs eyes and reduce his desire to obey. 

When I changed MY attitude I saw my independent boy respond. It took a while and some serious training, extra repetitions, and no tolerance for the paw. I still remember the look on his face when I ran out into the yard to make him come HERE. I could swear he was thinking "oh, s***, now she means business"

Ecollars are controversial here but the help to be able to correct the dog at the exact moment and at a distance.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

There is nothing 'wrong' with an independent dog.
Teach and highly reward, with lots of praise and high value treats, eye contact both asked for and 'offered' eye contact.
The bottom line, if you are happy with her and the training progress you are making - don't worry about it - love her for who she is.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Limit how much the dog can reward herself, and have her understand it is not a self-serve world. Up the rate of rewards coming directly from you and being with you, while limiting passive rewards she gets for herself.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

There should be a balance of motivation and "must do this" for her. 

I avoided correcting Bertie for the longest time when it came to getting him to take and hold dumbbells. Finally I thought "heck with it" and corrected him every time he slack-jawed the dumbbell out of his mouth. By the end of that training session, he was doing perfect holds. And the next day he was doing a qualified retrieve - with the sit in front and waiting for me to take the dumbbell. And it's been getting better. I have not corrected him since that day when I gave the law and wrote it up for him.  

Not saying you need to crack down and use corrections if that's NOT what you do and not how you are being taught at your new training location. But some firmness is necessary with these dogs to get them to learn before you switch to all positive-reward based training.

With focus and watch - you need to start off at home and do the training. Train the command and gradually up the distraction level around you. At class, if she's iffy - don't push her harder than she can handle. Take her to the back of the class and keep a lot of space around you. Something else that helps (I learned with Jacks, velcro dog - but out of control lovebug when he was young) is get to class a half hour early and if you can sit somewhere quiet and away from everyone else so she can acclimate. This before you take the floor during class, and again - keep distance between you and the other trainers. 

And remember to play games during class - even if it takes you out of your comfort level. Lots of people feel awkward playing with their dogs in public, but really it does help build connection with your dog. 

If there is a lot of chatting during class - instructor babbling in the middle... sit down on the floor and get Lucy to lay down so you can skritch her belly. It's better than her learning to daydream and make "play eyes" at people/dogs around you while you are listening to the instructor. 

And don't be in too much a hurry to wean off treats - this while not continuing to rely HEAVILY on them.


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## JayBen (Aug 30, 2012)

I really thank you all for taking the time to respond to this. I'm a little shocked as I actually do most of the stuff you all have said. I believe our training is going very well. She is always the star of the class. I'm not really having any issues training her except the eye contact. 



> She would probably benefit from some training that would emphasize that all good things come from you, and that she is rewarded when she defers to you.
> 
> One thing we have done is to sit quietly with dog at feet, and whenever dog even turns head towards the human, it gets a "good dog!" and a treat. Continue to where the dog gets a treat for making eye contact with you. Teaches them to always be checking for you and knowing that you notice them
> 
> Also, check out a training called Nothing in life is free, also called NIFL. There's a lot of info on here and on the Internet about it. It's a great approach and teaches a dog to focus on its human to get what it wants and needs.


I will certainly check out the NILF training. I have been working on a "watch me" command where she gets rewarded for eye contact. It's a lot harder than I thought it would be to teach. As soon as I treat her she turns away and won't hold the eye contact. I'm not giving up  



> You have try to say commands only once and insist upon compliance. Here means here and sit means sit.


I have learned to do this since the first day with our last trainer. She was a tough trainer. Any time I give a command its enforced...PERIOD. Rarely does she ever know what I want and not do it. I never up the treat value. I can see how your dog would quickly learn to not obey you.



> Ecollars are controversial here but the help to be able to correct the dog at the exact moment and at a distance


I agree. I think it could be a useful tool to enforce a command when the dog is far away from you. I just don't know enough about them or how to properly use one. 



> There is nothing 'wrong' with an independent dog.
> Teach and highly reward, with lots of praise and high value treats, eye contact both asked for and 'offered' eye contact.
> The bottom line, if you are happy with her and the training progress you are making - don't worry about it - love her for who she is.


I was just a little surprised our trainer said something about it. I do reward now for any eye contact. I am very happy with our training progress and I certainly won't loose any sleep worrying about her being independent. 



> Limit how much the dog can reward herself, and have her understand it is not a self-serve world. Up the rate of rewards coming directly from you and being with you, while limiting passive rewards she gets for herself.


Would you consider getting toys herself a passive reward? I think this is really the only self serve thing she gets. I don't give her many food rewards for no reason. My wife on the other hand will give her food occasionally. 



> I avoided correcting Bertie for the longest time when it came to getting him to take and hold dumbbells. Finally I thought "heck with it" and corrected him every time he slack-jawed the dumbbell out of his mouth. By the end of that training session, he was doing perfect holds. And the next day he was doing a qualified retrieve - with the sit in front and waiting for me to take the dumbbell. And it's been getting better. I have not corrected him since that day when I gave the law and wrote it up for him.


What kind of correction would be best for what your describing? I'm always kind of confused on corrections. I'm not against them at all. I think if it works and doesn't physically or mentally hurt the dog in any way, I have no problem with them.



> Not saying you need to crack down and use corrections if that's NOT what you do and not how you are being taught at your new training location. But some firmness is necessary with these dogs to get them to learn before you switch to all positive-reward based training.


We went from a place that was way more corrections based training to this place which I feel does a great balance of the 2. From what I've seen so far I don't think they are "Absolutely 100% positive training". I couldn't agree more about firmness being necessary before switching to all positive training. One thing that I did learn at this new place is to do more verbal praise along with the food reward. I don't think I was doing this enough and she seems to be responding well to it.



> Lots of people feel awkward playing with their dogs in public, but really it does help build connection with your dog.


One thing I've been doing when were out walking is to shove her butt when she's really not paying any attention to me. (I learned this from someone on here). It turns into a game and she just loves it. It just gets to to pay a little more attention to me.



> If there is a lot of chatting during class - instructor babbling in the middle... sit down on the floor and get Lucy to lay down so you can skritch her belly. It's better than her learning to daydream and make "play eyes" at people/dogs around you while you are listening to the instructor.


This is something that our new place is big on. If your waiting for your turn to heel around the cones or do whatever other exercise you should be giving your dog attention...petting, rubbing her belly, whatever. I like this a lot. It keeps her from getting too distracted. At our last place it was not encouraged at all.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

JayBen...I'd really recommend that you take a look at this Michael Ellis video...I found it very helpfull and it address's some of the issues you're running into. It takes about 4 or 5 minutes to get into it but hang in there I think you'll find it very helpful.

Michael Ellis' Philosophy of Dog Training

Let me know what you think...

~Pete & Woody~


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## JayBen (Aug 30, 2012)

Pete, I'm about 20 minutes into the video. It's fascinating. It _really_ makes a lot of sense. I have to run out now for the afternoon but I will certainly finish watching tonight.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

JayBen said:


> Pete, I'm about 20 minutes into the video. It's fascinating. It _really_ makes a lot of sense. I have to run out now for the afternoon but I will certainly finish watching tonight.


I think that's one of the reasons I like it so much because it does make so much sense and gives you some very effective tools to work with along with excellent communication skills.

Pete & Woody


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## JayBen (Aug 30, 2012)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> I think that's one of the reasons I like it so much because it does make so much sense and gives you some very effective tools to work with along with excellent communication skills.
> 
> Pete & Woody


I finished watching the video yesterday. I really liked it. I will have to watch again and take some notes. I'm not sure if I want to change my markers all around though as she is doing so well. I use "good" with a reward. It makes sense to use the marker and _then_ reward like he says. I think theres _a lot_ I can take from this video. I really appreciate you posting it Pete


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