# OFA fair rating



## goutes (Sep 13, 2009)

Before a few weeks ago I had never heard of OFA certifications, and today while researching the pedigree of my 16 week, old I discovered that her dam was given the rating of "fair", and her sire was not OFA certified but instead had pennhip done with a rating of "excellent". I noticed that with the fair rating breeding permissable but not recommended. The rest of the dogs in the pedigree seem to have rating of good, fair, or moderate. In the end it doesn't really matter, as I would never give my dog back, but should I have any worry of future hip problems? Other than the normal worry of owning a large breed dog of course.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Fair is still a clearances and many many dogs are bred on fair hips. Keep your puppy at a good weight, exercise her on a regular basis until she decides she has had enough, no forced exercise until 2 years of age, feed a quality balanced diet and you have done all you can do. You can breed two excellent parents and get dysplastic kids. In the same turn you can breed two fairs and get an excellent. So you set them up as best we can, do clearances and hope for the best.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Where on earth did you read that breeding a Fair is not recommended? Fair still means no DJD and no hip dysplasia. While I might not breed a Fair to a Fair, I would have no issue breeding a Fair.

And PennHip does not give ratings, rather they tell you where your dog falls in relationship to other dogs of the same breed whose hips have also been PH'd. Since the PennHip x-rays also include an OFA shot, virtually all breeders who do PennHip will also do OFA. OFA does rate hips as Excellent, Good, Fair, Borderline, Mild, Moderate or Severe. So perhaps the Excellent was the OFA rating. It would be very common to breed a Fair to an Excellent.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I too have to chime in with it is totally permissable and acceptable to breed a dog with a "fair" OFA hip rating. My Keeper was rated "fair" hips by OFA. She is now 13 and although a little slower there has never been any issue with her hips. Nor have there been with any of her pups who will turn 9 years old next month.
I would not be overly concerned at this time about your pup. As already suggested keep her slim and in good condition. This is the same I would suggest if both parents hips were rated "excellent" by OFA.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm with everybody else who says "fair" is perfectly good for breeding. Many breeders will think twice before breeding "fair" to "fair," but "fair" does *not* mean "almost dysplastic."

Even dogs who _fail_ OFA for hips may never develop problems. "Fair" is the minimum for ethical breeding, but it does mean the dog has properly formed hip joints.

As far as PennHIP, it gives you an actual quantitative measurement of the laxity of the hip joint, rather than a qualitative one. You need to know more to interpret the numbers, but it can really help breeders make decisions (i.e., not all "fairs" are created equal, and PennHIP can show you if one hip is very good and the other is more loose).

PennHIP also shows you where your dog's hip laxity falls as compared to other dogs from the breed who have had PennHIP done. This percentile number is only a comparison to other dogs, not an absolute figure, so unless the dog is very high, you can't put a whole lot of stock in it. Still, it can help breeders make better breeding decisions.

Some breeders appear to be using PennHIP when their dogs fail OFA. Because PennHIP doesn't have a pass/fail comment on the paperwork, unethical breeders can fail OFA, get PennHIP, and still say "my dog's hips were checked out and certified." Since the radiographs can be taken at the same time, there's no real reason a dog would have a PennHIP rating and not an OFA clearance; it may mean the breeder is up to something shady. If a dog has PennHIP but no OFA, you need to understand exactly why before you consider its offspring.

This stuff sounds really complicated, and sometimes people feel like it's a little much to bother with over a pet dog, but you're talking about an active companion animal who, with any luck, will be with you for the next fifteen years or more. A dog will always give you his best, and we need to be giving them the absolute best shot possible at a happy, healthy life.

This means _only_ breeding or buying dogs with proper clearances and keeping _all_ dogs at a healthy weight. Even a dog with well-formed hips can develop debilitating arthritis and joint problems if he's allowed to be overweight, especially if he's been overweight for years. By the same token, a dog with poorly formed hips may never experience the symptoms of HD if he's kept trim. On average, trim dogs live almost two years longer than dogs who are even moderately overweight, and they experience a delay in chronic health problems of almost two years. That's an extra two full years of health and happiness with your dog! For me, it's a no-brainer.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

As far as I know, Fair is a passing grade.

Comet's Pop was Fair, and his Mom Good. He lived 12 long years, was a very big Golden, and never had a moments hip trouble.

There is always a dose of luck/chance in all of this though.



goutes said:


> Before a few weeks ago I had never heard of OFA certifications, and today while researching the pedigree of my 16 week, old I discovered that her dam was given the rating of "fair", and her sire was not OFA certified but instead had pennhip done with a rating of "excellent". I noticed that with the fair rating breeding permissable but not recommended. The rest of the dogs in the pedigree seem to have rating of good, fair, or moderate. In the end it doesn't really matter, as I would never give my dog back, but should I have any worry of future hip problems? Other than the normal worry of owning a large breed dog of course.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I can't quite put my finger on it, but I LOVE that picture of Oriana 



AmbikaGR said:


> I too have to chime in with it is totally permissable and acceptable to breed a dog with a "fair" OFA hip rating. My Keeper was rated "fair" hips by OFA. She is now 13 and although a little slower there has never been any issue with her hips. Nor have there been with any of her pups who will turn 9 years old next month.
> I would not be overly concerned at this time about your pup. As already suggested keep her slim and in good condition. This is the same I would suggest if both parents hips were rated "excellent" by OFA.


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## goutes (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks for all of your input, I won't stress to much about it now :crossfing. AS for the Pennhip rating, the "Excellent" wording was teh breeder not official, the actual rating was 95%. 

Also someone asked where I read that you shouldn't breed with a "fair" rating. Well I googled it, so if I found it on the internet it must be true! :bowl:


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

goutes said:


> . The rest of the dogs in the pedigree seem to have rating of good, fair, or moderate. In the end it doesn't really matter, as I would never give my dog back, but should I have any worry of future hip problems? Other than the normal worry of owning a large breed dog of course.


The only thing that I would find of concern is the rating of moderate. That is a rating for a dysplastic dog. No dysplasia will be rated fair, good or excellent. Dysplastic dogs are rated mild, moderate, or severe. 

I would not be overly concerned about the breeding of a fair to a fair.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Look at the vertical pedigree. If a dog has an ancestry with a history of a lot of fairs and moderates, I'd be more concerned. As an example, I would not use an "Excellent" dog if his littermates were moderate, and I'd be very careful even if they were fairs.


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## tyler39 (Dec 22, 2016)

*And this is exactly the answers expected from those who breed fair rated dogs!*

( Pressed for time to proof read but I believe the jest of my point has been clearly made and can be understood.)

I believe that most, if not all of these responses reflect the opinions of people whom DO NOT have the best interest of the breed in mind. These responses are those whom flood the market with puppies who have a much higher risk genetically of hip disorders and they excuse this behavior by saying that anything fair and above is considered a passing grade and therefore they have been cleared for breeding. Which is clearly not the case! I often see ads by "breeders" really unscrupulous people who run adds stating that their dogs have OFA clearances but do not offer to explain what what OFA certified means and/or that it involves different levels and is not a pass or fail system. The majority of "Breeders" actually do not care about improving this weak hip problem that this breed is known for because they do not use the ofa for what it is actually designed for. while it is true there is no guarantee that all excellent dogs will throw nothing but excellent pups but when putting only the best in as in genetics in ancestry the odds are greatly improved on producing excellent pups. I feel that the current multi level system of grading encourages the breed to remain genetically inclined to have bad hips. It would be much better to use either a pass or fail grading system or a b c d f as I feel that most people could determine the quality quickly and easily if someone told them OFA certified Pass or OFA certified low or C grade! most of us can understand that c means mediocre. low end passing grade. It is people that make or break a breed. Just as American Pit Bulls were once known as a breed of nanny dogs. Strong, dependable, loyal and gentile. People and the force driven my making a buck, Produced puppies from less then quality lines. lines which did not support the standards of the breed. People who did not care about the breed per say, but only cared that breeding made them money. and no matter of the pups not meeting the standard temperament of the breed the puppies sold anyway. one reason is because the temperament would not be known until the pups matured. Currently the Pit bull breed is known for being unpredictable killing machines. In order for the Golden Retriever as a breed to become strong, it will take people that uphold strict breeding standards along with exceptional morals and values and rules that have been set forth to improve this wonderful breed and not because people are greedy and they have no trouble selling pups from parents that had no business breeding in the first place! The money is what each and every one of these responses is tied too as any other answer would not support their decision to go ahead and breed risky lines.


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## tyler39 (Dec 22, 2016)

*A strong but simple messege.*

OK people, Lets take this to a less confusing level that should drive my point home and I highly doubt I will be very well liked in this forum for saying the following.

Ask yourself this question. What is the O.F.A.? More importantly, What is their mission statement? 

The OFA Mission: To promote the health and welfare of companion animals through a reduction in the incidence of genetic disease.

And how do you do this? 

Fair rated dogs need to have their lineage looked at, as that is where one determines if one should or should not be a candidate for breeding.
But this info is seldom offered as the unscrupulous breeder goes ahead and breeds because they say they did not fail,. they actually did not pass either. further info would needed before receiving a passing certification and OFA leaves that responsibility to the honesty of each and every fair certified dog owner. I believe it falls into the category of having high morals and values, or none at all! 
Sorry but its true......


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

tyler39, not sure where you are coming from but a Fair differs from an Excellent only on the way the hip joint is formed- a Fair is in no way dysplastic or almost dysplastic. A better way to look at breeding pairings is to look at siblings- for a Fair whose sibs are all Excellent is a far better choice than an Excellent whose sibs are all Fairs.
That's what good breeders do. I don't think you can judge responsibility based on knowledge that is misinformed.
Perhaps you can tell us about your Golden Retriever history and what solid experience/education you have to make judgements. I suspect you might have purchased a puppy who turned out dysplastic and was from a fair rated parent- but really, there is so much more to it than just that. Environment plays a part as well as genetics. And you should know that good breeders are very knowledgeable and DO educate puppy buyers to OFA ratings, which absolutely allow Fair rated dogs to be bred (not that they 'allow' or disallow anything- but most breed clubs CoE do have allowable and not suggestions on ethical breedings). Cutting Fair dogs out of the gene pool would do much more harm to the breed than you can imagine.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tyler, what the heck? This is an older thread, and one full of excellent small hobby breeders who have produced some of the healthiest lines of goldens over the years, making hard decisions and thoughtfully researching along the way. Hitting the forum hard with a big opinion is fine, but we need some credibility. Culling dogs from the gene pool because they have fair hips( nice passing hips) would have a ripple effect of also eliminating their strong traits and diversity from an already limited gene pool. We have huge problems like Pigmentary Uveitis and hemangiosarcoma with which to cope, so removing a dog with a long-lived cancer free pedigree with clear eyes from the gene pool bc of fair hips would be insanity ruling.


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## Amystelter (Jul 31, 2013)

I usually stay away from posting in these kinds of threads because I have no real technical knowledge but because of an incidence with my Lucy I'm going to add a different, maybe controversial perspective. My Lucy had a limp a while back and so I was concerned about her hips. She was pedigree so I assumed she had all her clearences but come to find out one was missing. I was upset but at the time knew very little. Some would question the reputability of the breeder but I have come to think another way. 

Nature is genetically flawed. Some of us, as humans, suffer at the end from a genetic disease. More and more behaviors have been linked to genetics like alcoholism and so on. Couples continue to have children among all the known risks. Why, because life is worth living. Now I'm not saying there are no other variables between human vs. dog but to make my point it's a fair comparison. I'm not sure where we draw the line for this beautiful breed. If you were to disallow a fair rating how scarce would the breed become? Would we be paying 5k for a golden? How many families would not be able to afford one then? It is about money no doubt but by the very fact that we have a rating system as a guide says a lot about how much breeders care about the offspring. 

Having said that I do need to find a source that provides information about how many dogs with a fair rating actually develop problems, and to what extent are they. I'd also be interested in the genetic link to cancer, as this is killing out dogs at an unacceptable level. But again, when we have cancer or a heart condition that run in our family we don't stop having children. Life lived continues to outweigh risk of disease. 

So in the end, we are all going to draw a line somewhere and I can guarantee it won't lie in the same place.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I am sure this post is likely prompted by a horrific experience. Yes, there are many bad breeders out there who claim health testing that doesn't exist. However a fair rating is not that case.

And along that thought, wow this is the strangest post I think I've ever read on hip ratings.

To put it in the 0P's original words… 


tyler39 said:


> Sorry but its true......


 OFA Fair is a passing grade. 

OFA issues a certificate and OFA number for this grade. 

You certainly can have your own opinion that you would not breed fair dogs, but it's very uncalled for to question the ethics of people who are testing and receiving a passing grade from OFA. And before you think to attack my character as you have some of the best breeders in our breed that come and share their expertise here, no I don't have any fair graded dogs. If I did I would absolutely breed them if the the whole dog warranted it. Our breed has more issues than just hips and breeding for a single trait regardless of what it is is a very bad idea for the overall health of any breed. A fair rated dog with long-lived ancestors, very little incidents of cancer, no eye, or heart issues that's a dog worth breeding.

From OFA's own site Fair is listed as a 'normal' grade.


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## tyler39 (Dec 22, 2016)

*and....*

This you say, in my opinion, to support less then optimal breeding decisions. To love a breed and to have the power to improve the breed is all up to us. Humans should not put their business profitability above seeing that they have taken a fair and many with fair siblings and parents and twisted the cert of fair to fit their less then best decision to continue their lines. It has to do with admitting that profit has over powered ethics. hypithecally, Would you prefer your child to head to school each day with the mindset of only being willing to put the effort in that will earn them a C grade? or would you encourage this child to work harder and aim for A's. as when we lower our standards just to squeak by, because a C is passing therefore it is acceptable?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

A dog is not made of hips alone. 
The preservationists among us will never, ever see things your way- for a C is not equivalent to a Fair, since Fair is a reflection of how bone fits and a C is a reflection of how hard a student works. One can be fixed with study. One can't. You're comparing unlike things, and also valuing hips over temperament, structure, breed type, and genetics. We cannot afford to cut fairs out genetically. We need those genes. And again I say, a fair is NOT 'almost dysplastic'. 
FWIW I have had ONE fair in over 30 years breeding, and I bred her. Twice. Her value was far greater than one excellent I am thinking of,who I bred once and spayed- to my breeding program, and to the breed itself. I think you do not have the knowledge to be able to make such sweeping statements, but then, you have not introduced yourself, or your reasoning basis- which, since your reasoning is faulty, is really just your feelings about something you are not educated on. You could as easily pick on any trait and really, no one trait is ever something that is a to breed or not breed dealbreaker except temperament imo.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I'm not sure where you got the idea that any truly reputable breeder, whether on this forum or not, are breeding for profit. You have not shared where you gained your expertise in sound breeding practices or grading x-rays. The graded system you're suggesting is essentially what is used currently. A would equate to excellent, B to good and C to fair. Anything below that is failing. Although the differences between an Excellent and Fair are so subtle most people would have a hard time telling them apart. Every reputable breeder is out to make the breed healthier and they do that by following the GRCA code of ethics which concurs with the OFA standard that Fair is a passing grade. It does not mean dysplaysia. A dog or breeder cannot just try harder to get a passing grade like a student could. They may choose to breed a dog with Fair hips that came from several generations of good and excellent hips, the dog with Fair hips does not have inferior genetics than a dog with Excellent hips bred from a dog with hip dysplaysia. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you can choose not to buy a puppy from a breeder who breeds with Fair hips, but that does not mean that every other breeder is bad or out for money. The breeders you are trying to depose certainly aren't "flooding the market" with puppies. They may only breed one litter a year and have it sold before pups are born.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

tyler39 said:


> This you say, in my opinion, to support less then optimal breeding decisions. To love a breed and to have the power to improve the breed is all up to us.


Actually, these two sentences put it in a nutshell- where you are wrong- the reality of it is that choosing one trait to focus on is what ACTUALLY hurts the breed, and prevents improvement or preservation. When you choose hips over other things, you are ignoring things we need. What if (to you) a very biddable, DNA clear for everything, fabulous breed type stud dog is out there who has a killer wonderful temperament and other things that make him desirable to anyone in Goldens is also OFA Fair? You'd toss him in your scenario. That's just wrong. THAT is what would be a 'less than optimal breeding decision'. And that's why people who are not students of the breed should not be breeding.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tyler39 said:


> This you say, in my opinion, to support less then optimal breeding decisions. To love a breed and to have the power to improve the breed is all up to us. Humans should not put their business profitability above seeing that they have taken a fair and many with fair siblings and parents and twisted the cert of fair to fit their less then best decision to continue their lines. It has to do with admitting that profit has over powered ethics. hypithecally, Would you prefer your child to head to school each day with the mindset of only being willing to put the effort in that will earn them a C grade? or would you encourage this child to work harder and aim for A's. as when we lower our standards just to squeak by, because a C is passing therefore it is acceptable?


I doubt there is one person on this thread who makes a profit breeding goldens. I lost nearly a year's salary on a litter saving my beloved mama dog, and have never made more than it cost to do thew breeding. Your presumption that breeders are in it to be profitable means you are already starting from the wrong place. I would rather give every puppy to a great home I know then sell one to a medium home- truly. The cynicism about the people here on this thread is so misplaced that a conversation is hard to have.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Boy does this poster remind me of someone we had here a couple years ago, who came in and flamed breeders, claiming breeders were unethical and all profit driven, and characterized hobby breeding as a "business." This poster is posting similar stuff; three posts, all of them accusatory and inflammatory, not rooted in science or a good understanding of breeding practices, yet proclaiming an unsupported expertise, and characterizing breeders as being motivated by greed and "business" considerations over ethics and improving the breed.

So, to take a single substantive point out of the thousands available, one downside to only breeding excellent hips, for example, is that the overall genetic health of the breed is reduced in just a few generations of puppies. Then imagine adding likewise severe breeding restrictions regarding other conditions, and pretty soon you have a genetic bottleneck so narrow that a swift extinction of the breed becomes a real threat. This poster evidences no understanding of hip evaluation, or of population genetics and good breeding practices. Nor does he seem to actually know any reputable hobby breeders, and assumes (wrongly) that all or most breeders are unethically motivated by profit. He writes in absolutes and with a bombastic, black and white judgment for which he evidences no actual knowledge or authority.

And he has successfully dropped in, brand new, and inflamed with intentionally provocative and extreme posts, which is indicative of a certain category of internet poster that we are not supposed to feed, but which I cannot name because my post will be removed. Walks like a duck, quacks like one, so...???

Again, he reminds me of a similar poster from a couple years ago. Can't remember his name then. But I'm not sure how much attention we should give him until he shows us who he is.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

In his very first post on this board, this poster begins by proclaiming that "most, if not all [breeders] DO NOT have the best interest of the breed in mind." He calls breeders "unscrupulous people" and claims that "[t]he majority of Breeders actually do not care about improving this weak hip problem," and that breeders "only care that breeding made them money." He laments that breeders lack and need to develop "morals and values," and declares that breeders are "greedy and they have no trouble selling pups from parents that had no business breeding in the first place!"

In his second post he announces that he wants to "drive my point home," and predicts that "I highly doubt I will be very well liked in this forum." Then he states his point as being that breeding on fair-rated hips makes one an "unscrupulous breeder," who "goes ahead and breeds because they say that [a fair hip rating] did not fail,. they actually did not pass either," and that breeders apparently either have "high morals and values, or none at all!" then puts a point on it by assuring us that, "Sorry but its true......"

His third post continues in the same way, admonishing that breeders "should not put their business profitability above . . . twist[ing] the cert of fair to fit their less then best decision to continue their lines." He judges this assumption as having "to do with admitting that profit has overpowered ethics," and then goes on with an analogy about children who do not do well in school, the lesson of which is to conclude that breeders have willfully lowered standards out of greed.

That is 100% of his posting history, so far. I suggest that this poster may not be sincere or merely lashing out from some personal pain, but that he may have less sympathetic motives, and that we not give him too much benefit of whatever doubt there is until and unless he offers us some reason to trust him.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*OFA Fair is a normal and passing score*

I think it needs repeated because Tyler is very adamant that Fair is a failing score. It is not. 

It is certified by OFA as a normal and passing grade for which they issue a certificate, an OFA number and record on their public verification database in the same way as good and excellent grades. 

Failing grades are not issued a certificate or a number and are only listed on the database if the owner initials a disclosure section on the form for failing tests. 

Though honestly I don't think Tyler is going to be open to learning more but hey here goes nothing.

I also agree that the comparison of education grades and hip grades is a very poor comparison but let's give this a try. 

Do all Doctors need to have all As before they can be Doctors? No. What they do have to do is meet a industry expert set standard of achievement. Once they do this they receive their diploma and license to practice. Do some Doctors score higher in certain areas? Of course they do but all Doctors have achieved the standard to merit the ability to practice. So, applying this admittedly poor comparison, OFA grades of Fair, Good and Excellent would all become Doctors. Boarderline, Mild, Moderate and Severe would not. I don't know about you but I have never thought to ask my Doctor for their transcripts. 

Probably a better comparison that most of us will have some experience with is our eyesight. We all want 20/20 right? That is the benchmark of normal human eyesight. Did you know though that eye sight can be better than 20/20? I have a family member who did. So Fair would be like 20/20 eyesight, excellent would be like 20/15. 

Interestingly to me that OFA gets brought up including their mission as a way to attack a grade that they issue as passing??? That is why I think it is strange to attack breeders as unethical, money grubbing at the expense of dogs because they choose to breed a dog that has been tested and given a normal hip grade from OFA. Tyler I would be just as passionately indignant with you if we were talking about a breeder who does not test, breeds on preliminary reports, or breeds an actual failing grade(boarderline, mild, moderately severe). But to condemn so strongly people who are receiving health certifications is simply highly strange to me. 

If OFA were to eliminate their current ratings and go with a simple pass/fail option as Tyler suggested earlier all these Fair rated hips would list a passing. Then breeders would loose out on valuable information that does help reputable breeders make decisions to move toward improvement because hey who would not want 20/15 vision or even more beautifully formed hips than normal.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Yeah, I always go at the uneducated from a place of trying to educate- but methinks this Tyler person is either very hurt or very uneducated and not willing to learn.


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## tyler39 (Dec 22, 2016)

I am not saying that the hips are the only thing that makes or breaks a dog. I am using hips as just an example of how most breeders support their decisions to breed the C rated dog. I also would like to point out something that seems to be missed by everyone that simply states and believes a fair rated dog passes the OFA standards simply and alone by this fair rating. This is a misconception and is used in such a way that actually weakens the breed as a whole. As what a rating of fair actually means is the following information can be found at Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia

"Overall, low screening rates for breeds found in this study offer some insight into the problems involved with reducing the incidence of HD. The typical dog breeder is involved in breeding dogs for about five years. Thus, informed, experienced breeders are continually replaced with uninformed, inexperienced breeders who may not be as aware of the problems associated with HD or of the importance of participating in a screening program. In addition, many breeders choose which dogs they breed on the basis of the hip phenotype of individual dogs without knowledge of the phenotype of related dogs or previous offspring. It can be very difficult to get hip information on siblings and previous offspring due to the overall low number of dogs radiographed in a given litter (most dogs in a litter end up in pet homes). This is the slowest method of reducing the incidence of an undesirable trait or increasing the incidence of a desirable trait."

"What can breeders do?

Hip dysplasia appears to be perpetuated by breeder imposed breeding practices, but when breeders and their breed clubs recognize HD as a problem and establish reduction of HD as a priority, improvement of the hip status can be accomplished without jeopardizing other desirable traits. Prospective buyers should check pedigrees and/or verify health issues with the breeder. If suitable documentation is not available, assume the worst until proven otherwise.

Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. (**)The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect."

The problem lies with the guidelines which follow the statement of the ofa which allows people to claim they are within the guidelines of the ofa, but the definition of fair is not a cut and dry rating, as even a rating of good is incomplete info necessary to determine if a dog should be bred or not . It doesn't say do not or you can not breed a fair dog. it says can be bred BUT NOT RECOMMENDED. unless the dog meets other criteria that looks at family members as occurrence HD is closely connected to genitic's and lineage, although not the only factor in dogs who get it. Simply being rated good should not stand alone and is not complete with info necessary in which gives a ethical breeder the go ahead. as stated above Having a good with siblings or family members rated fair means you should not breed the dog!! OFA is a tool which has been hijacked and used against that which it was formed. . this is where most are unethical in their decisions. Typical ad states OFA Cert. but fails to offer what that means. People do not ask as they do not know better and trust the "Expert". only one problem they do not see that the person is an expert SALES PERSON!

Look, HD is just one of the problems that we, the humans, the people who produce puppies need to care and need to do all they can to improve the breed. if that means cutting into your income generated by breeding, so be it! money drives those to support doing what they know they shouldn't be doing!!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Tyler,

I'm no breeder, just one of the many people who look for reputable breeders to get a pup from. Would love more information about your dogs. Eye problems are a concern for me and would love to see how they compare. Do you have a website or kennel name?? I'll be happy to research the OFA listings on your dogs.


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## tyler39 (Dec 22, 2016)

Think what you may. Ignore plain and simple facts. Support your practices of ignoring all important details included in recommendations of organisations such as OFA. Heck, whats wrong with using only part of the recommendation, completely ignoring key points which would rule your dog out of being qualified to breed? I guess that all depends on what your definition is of ETHICAL!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

puddles everywhere said:


> Tyler,
> 
> I'm no breeder, just one of the many people who look for reputable breeders to get a pup from. Would love more information about your dogs. Eye problems are a concern for me and would love to see how they compare. Do you have a website or kennel name?? I'll be happy to research the OFA listings on your dogs.


I too am interested in whether or not I believe you are coming from a place of knowledge or a place of irritation with what you believe is a problem. So, who are you? What gives you such a high podium you'd judge others? So far all you are doing is quoting bits and pieces that are not cohesive and extremely judgemental. You don't know any of us, I would bet, and you don't know the hard work we do trying to produce health and longevity.... I think you are unlikely to find bad breeders here, unless it is on a drop in basis to defend their practices. Those folks you can go to town on- but don't judge those of us who do a fabulous job and are entertaining you and your ideas which are very narrow. Dogs' names so we can research your pedigrees?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

tyler39 said:


> fair dog. it says can be bred BUT NOT RECOMMENDED. unless the dog meets other criteria that looks at family members as occurrence HD is closely connected to genitic's and lineage, although not the only factor in dogs who get it. Simply being rated good should not stand alone and is not complete with info necessary in which gives a ethical breeder the go ahead. as stated above Having a good with siblings or family members rated fair means you should not breed the dog!!


Just where does it say this on OFA? These words .It does not. 
Earlier in this thread, it was discussed that good breeders DO look at pedigrees, at siblings, and for that matter, sibs of predecessors. 
I think you have a $$ thing going. You think we make tons of money- which is laughable- and your rhetoric is not unlike AR folks' rhetoric. So until you either fess up to what you're upset about and name names, I'm done with this one. FWIW, though, the way to make a real difference is not to judge the good guys.


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## tyler39 (Dec 22, 2016)

Selling dogs while leading your customers to accept your misleading selling tactics, which you are well aware are misleading....and doing so without blinking an eye. Your dogs sell because there is a market and you excuse your ways because of numerous reasons. excuses such as its ok because you are selling "pet quality" dogs. 
WHAT EXACTLY DOES THAT MEAN? PET QUALITY = not the highest quality...with knowledge of such from the time of breeding.

Look the only way to improve this great breed is to stop making excuses for your low consideration, for what ever reason, as to try to only use the highest quality and standards in regards to selection of your breeding stock as the problems that are associated in general as a breed, will improve or decline based on what your decisions are and it is clearly doubtful that we will see any improvement any time soon as proven by the input above. I wish you luck in the upcoming year. Hopefully I will see less of the questionable sales tactics used in the upcoming year!!


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## tyler39 (Dec 22, 2016)

May I ask you to go to "puppyfind.com" look at lets say...California ads...there are many ads which claim the pups are out of OFA cert. dogs. many of these certs are from fair dogs...fair dogs where no siblings are listed...but alas they are out of parents, either one, or both , or in the not so distant lineage have family members that are also fair. Those dogs should never be in a breeding program. yet puppies such as these flood the market. tell me these breeders are acting ethically?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Puppyfind.com? Are you for real? There's not a breeder here who would be on that thing.

And why aren't you responding to anyone's questions?

I smell a rat.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Please don't feed the trolls.


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## Amystelter (Jul 31, 2013)

I'll chime in for a minute. The OP is most definitely talking to the wrong people because he does not yet know how knowledge and passionate you all are. I'm not taking any sides here either but I will offer my own story as an example to look at. I love all dogs and am your typical dog owner. I bought my first Golden at a pet store before it was known to me of their practices. So when he passed I decided to fill this horrible hole in my heart by finding a golden puppy. I was referred to her by my boss who got one some months earlier. Actually a few people have gone to her. She advertises OFA on her website and I had all the confidence in the world that she was a reputable breeder. Months After I had my Lucy I made a recommendation on this forum and Archer Mom check it out in dispute of her practices. So I go on the defenses wanting to defend her because, well, I love my dogs and I felt that somehow this degraded them. So long story made short, well just shorter, I confronted her and began a back and forth debate on her reputation. She stands by her dogs yet I see some deviation away from OFI. 

I have to take responsibility for not knowing and just trusting because of the Pedigree. Please feel free to look up her dogs. The kennel is Hearts of Golden out of Two Lakes Wisconsin. I am still not completely knowledgeable on the breeding process so I don't judge her too harsh. I saw her with the dogs, her set up and concern for where the pups were going, but could this be the point that the OP was trying to make. Is she just trying to make a buck? If she is is she the only one?

The reasoning that breeding a fair dog is somehow hurting the breed does not stand. Take a moment to re-read the responses, there is a whole lot of knowledge put out there for you to learn from. Arguments can be made against some breeder practices but don't put them in one bucket to represent -


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> Please don't feed the trolls.


Every time I say that I get a PM from the Admins and my post gets deleted.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I was thinking this was one of the weirdest threads I've ever seen on here. The Puppyfind.com thing helps it make a little more sense. You are speaking of a completely different demographic than the breeders on this board as compared to the breeders who would advertise on puppyfind.com.

It would be like yelling at a chef of a first-rate restaurant and using evidence of practices at McDonalds.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

So you are comparing all the breeders On here to puppy finds??? That is laughable!!

Advertising on there?? Please come down and research. 

If you think that is where all the reputable breeders are...you are soooo misinformed!!

Geez!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Talk to people out there who have a lot of work, time, money hinged on a dog growing up to have good hips and elbows... and yeah, you will have that person steer away from pedigrees that have too many "fairs" showing up going backwards and sideways. 

And some people feel a lot better looking at an OFA pedigree and seeing a smattering of Excellents behind a litter. 

That's true. 

However.  The comments on this thread that literally treat fair hips as borderline hips - are just a bit kooky from the standpoint that they seem to indicate a degree of belief that a fair is extremely far in conformation/structure from an excellent. What gets a fair grade might not be the same thing each and every time... and what gets an excellent grade might not as well in this breed. 

I've seen some hips that got an excellent grade... and you wonder "how" when it does not appear they have deep sockets, among else. 

Another thing is I can relate a conversation I had with the vet who did my guy's hips. She felt his hips had a good chance at going "excellent" based on the points she pointed out. However she mentioned that they were giving out more Goods than Excellents at that time + she warned me that sometimes the difference between a Good and a Fair was whether they had their coffee that morning. And she offered to redo and resend for free if he got a fair grade - just in case. He did get a "Good" with at least one Excellent vote so it was a lot of worry for nothing. But I admit I was worried that he'd end up getting a fair just because the vet suggested that.

^ That does not exhibit a lot of confidence in the difference between the grades and/or the ability of the OFA vets to clearly sort out the difference each and every time. <- And this is a reason why some shady people out there bash OFA. It's because sometimes there are results they don't agree with and it negatively impacts what they do or the choices they make. 

That said, an OFA grade is better than none. And I do believe that when you have breeders selectively breeding dogs who have gotten strong clearances... it is a good deal as opposed to somebody breeding a fair to a fair, etc. 

If all the breeders on this thread were simply recommending breeding anything as long as it clears - you probably would have a point as to them being reckless. 

However, most breeders out there are not going to be breeding fairs to fairs and not caring if littermates and litters have high percentages of borderline or mild hips at the mildest. The breeders here who are responding to you are not in that crowd. 

All the more so if there are missing pieces on a pedigree - indicating that some breeders are even breeding dogs who failed hips or elbows. <= And here's a different point on that, if you want the water a little more muddy.  I have recently met somebody who owns a puppy from a litter I backed away from very fast because the mom failed an elbow and the breeder shopped the xrays around until she had a well-respected specialist certify them separate from OFA.

This pup is really nice. She's smart and she's fast tracking in obedience. And there's nothing wrong with her hips and elbows. Which I think goes back to the experience and knowledge of the breeder + who they selectively breed to. This pup's sire is a very well known and accomplished dog who isn't just a CH, but also has his MH and CDX titles, and agility titles as well. 

Would I have taken a puppy from that litter knowing what I do now as far as the litter being successful? Probably not - it still would be too much a risk for me. But the point is that the breeder did her best to make sure that more eyes saw and judges those elbow xrays before she bred that dog. And it certainly did not cause problems for the litter as it would have with a less experienced and less knowledgable and less dedicated breeder.

Bottom line is that when people post xrays on different social groups I belong to... the first thing I look at and probably the only thing I focus on some days... is whether the points for clearance are there. You look at how tight the hips are and how well formed. And I think most cases you can always tell if hips are going to pass or not. The grades themselves don't always have clear differences. I do think an excellent SHOULD look superior to a fair, absolutely. But a fair DOES look superior to a borderline or mild graded hip most cases. 

I think with all of us... the more you know and more people you know and more you do and or get involved with.... the more positive the viewpoint you might have concerning what certain breeders ARE doing. 

People who are fresh on the scene or isolated sometimes are exposed to the negative stuff first or if negative stuff happens to them, it can seem like EVERYONE's experiencing the same things.

Case in point when I lost my two old men to cancer of the spleen about 1.5 years apart.... everyone I knew as losing their goldens to the same thing and at around the same age. A lot of 11-14 year old dogs dying from hemangio. 

My perspective was a bit different simply because I'd lost a dog to renal failure when he was only six. So losing dogs who were almost 13 and almost 14 - those little lives were a success in my eyes. They lived long and happy lives. To me, I was less angry and upset and helpless feeling when they died than I was years before when we lost that 6 year old. 

Other people I've met though... they had no comparison like that. Losing a 13 year old golden was the worst thing ever. And caused at least one person I know to steer away into another breed because that breed supposedly won't die from cancer. I don't agree with them, but I can see how why if you went through the most horrific experience like that and everyone you meet went through the same horrific experience and you know that the next pup will likely go through the same thing.... that's all you'll be thinking of.

So if somebody like a pet owner... purchased a pup who down the road ended up having hip dysplasia.... and we'll assume that the hips were moderate to severe. That person might look back at the pedigree behind the pup and look for reasons that the HD happened. If one of the parents had a "fair grade" and you had a bunch of other dogs as well with fairs, that can look like a smoking gun. And I admit to being convinced earlier when reading this thread between baking cookies and staring at the empty spot where I need to set up the Christmas tree tomorrow... I was pretty much convinced that the surprising comments on this thread were coming from somebody like that. 

Anyway.... it is 2 days before Christmas. It should be a happy and good-spirited time for all of us. Let's not be hugging anger right now.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ETA - just for fun.  

My Bertie's great-grandfather is a very well-known and liked dog. And his hips were fair! He had at least one littermate with Excellent hips, but he had fair hips.

He was bred to a girly who had excellent hips... which produced Bertie's grandfather who had Good hips.... who produced Bertie's dad who had excellent hips. 

So you have a pattern of goods and excellents coming from a dog who had fair hips.

To me, that indicates a direction towards improvement as opposed to degrading. And a good thing since that dog at the start is a popular sire. He's behind a lot of lines out there. If breeding a dog with fair hips were to lead to worsening hip structure and problems, he would not be as popular, I suspect.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

We are still learning so much about HD, and how much of it is genetic and how much is environmental. There are studies out there that are saying early spay and neuter can effect HD, the flooring used in your house, maybe even doing too many stairs as a young puppy, how fast the puppy grew or even the type of padding used in the whelping box. I am sure that any breeder that has been around for decades has bred at least one puppy with HD, no matter how careful they were in matching up their bitches to sires - two Excellents can produce a dysplastic puppy. 

When I bought my first golden puppy from a reputable show breeder 10 years ago, I had to sign a contract that I would wait at least a year to neuter him. She had told me that she and fellow breeders had noticed that none of the dogs they kept ever failed OFA, but any that did, were raised in pet homes, and were neutered early. Now ten years later, there are actually studies that are coming out saying the same things.

Every reputable breeder I know stands behind their puppies, and will take them back if the owner cannot continue to give them a good home - do you think that sounds like somebody that is in it for the money or that would purposely breed a dog that has statistically a greater chance of having health issues later on?


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## Amystelter (Jul 31, 2013)

So I got a bit interested in this and read a lot of info on the OFA site but I couldn't find many studies. I understand the rating system which seems to be subjective but all I found was one study in a journal from 2011. They also gave a breed specific chart of submissions over five years ending in 2015 which only totaled about 7,300. So do I understand correctly that out of the entire golden breeding population only 7,300 have OFA certifications. I'm just trying to understand. Can someone send me to links that show more evidence of this issue. 

After looking into it it seem that with loosing the breed at a rate of 61% (or somewhere around there) to cancer, followed by other disease that the weight put on hip dysphasia is too heavy. In my opinion DNA testing for predisposition would be more beneficial to the health of the overall breed. I know that the discussion isn't about general heath but if OP is that concerned about breeding a fair rated Golden rather than overall health and confirmed breeding practices his/her point is moot.

The study I saw had around 840,000 and it was really interesting but I'm not convinced with the methodology. I also can't find a diagnosis study that ties the OFA rating to a confined diagnosis. How does rating an X-ray at 2 years of age predict an onset, and if it does where is the evidence. I can't find it. It would be put out by some sort of vet association but I can't find any data. Please point me in the right direction.




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## Amystelter (Jul 31, 2013)

Sorry I'm on tapatalk and can't edit here. Confined should read confirmed.


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

Amystelter said:


> Sorry I'm on tapatalk and can't edit here. Confined should read confirmed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Changed it for you!!!!:smile2:


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