# Can we be honest?



## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

I do not think all byb' s are bad. Pips breeder could be considered ad that, but he was sweet and truly loved his dogs.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think you are right. If anything BYBs only care about how sweet, smart and endearing their dogs are, and socialize the heck out of them with every neighborhood kid and their brother over to play with puppies from day one. But if I am going to plunk down my money it's going to be a smart investment. A BYB without clearances is not a smart investment in the health department. That is not to say every BYB dog has problems. It IS to say you increase your ODDS of having a healthier dog. The best example I can give is also the most obvious. Hip dysplasia. Crippling HD that needs TPO and hip replacements is basically unheard of in stock cleared through OFA for 3+ generations. It is unfortunately commonplace in the BYB population. Ask any rescue group how many young, otherwise healthy goldens are forked over to rescue because their hips are nonexistent and they need very expensive surgery to fix it! We just do not commonly see crippling HD in the "show" population. 

I also could not in good conscience recommend someone looking for a pet go to ANY breeder who doesn't do clearances. The show stuff and whatnot I can live without as most people don't care and that doesn't necessarily make a good dog. But not doing clearances in this day and age is inexcusable. 

If we can educate and peer pressure more backyard/family/one time breeders into just doing clearances, and buyers to put this as the minimum requirement, the world and our breed would be in a better place.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My first 3 goldens came from Pet Shops.

They lived long lives (14.5, 12.5 and 13.5), 2 of them always healthy, the middle one had some health struggles we worked through.

I did obedience with all 3, agility with 2 and pet therapy with 2. I loved them all very very deeply. 

My current 3 (soon to be 4) come from highly regarded breeders, but honestly the breeders pretty much came to me through dog world contacts. I love my current 3 very deeply as well and we participate in obedience, rally and agility.

I do get tired of people cranking on 'bad breeders' at times. Highly regarded breeders are actually difficult to find for many if you are not a member of the dog world ... and available puppies can be highly sought after leaving companion homes waiting.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

My Bear girl came from a BYB and she had a textbook golden personality and lived to the ripe old age of 12. She had OCD as a puppy, but didn't have any other issues until hemangio (at 12).
The breeders were an older couple that were trying to supplement their income. They loved their dogs, the adults and puppies were raised in the house. The dogs were well treated.
When I started researching for kenzie I realized that there is more that should be done. It's not that they were bad breeders, it's that they weren't doing it for the breed. They weren't doing anything to ensure that the puppies started life with the biggest head start. They weren't making sure that the pairing was looking ahead for their program. They weren't doing anything to get the dog that a golden should be. Bear was a great dog, but honestly it was just dumb luck on their part.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

BYB live on an island, breed the same dogs over and over without caring about improving breed health, maintaining breed standard by letting their dogs be critiqued by other experts in their breed. They don't show so they never learn the standard and what is desirable. And on top of all that, there are too many homeless dogs to breed for no purpose other than money. They usually don't take their dogs back so many end up getting passed around or in rescue. I don't want to support breeders like that anymore. There are dog shows hosted by AKC in almost every city at least once a year, so anyone can go and meet good breeders for a potential puppy. Don't have to be in the dog world to get a well bred dog.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I totally agree with you. Our golden jake had no health issues and maybe one trip to the vet outside his yearly checkups.

The byb might not have clearances but some are very good. They are totally different then a puppy mill. 

The fact that some on here make it sound like your puppy is going to be sick is ridiculous. My. Puppy is not a lesser loves pup or any less worthy.


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## Eclipse (Apr 21, 2014)

My first dog was from a BYB. The back yard breeder was just a nice family with a couple Goldens they wanted to breed. 

She turns eleven next month and has a great temperament. The only problems I've had with her are her health related. Mild hip dysplasia and cancer. She got two different types when she was nine, and got it again in January. Cancer isn't limited to BYB dogs, though, and I'm sure she could have siblings out there that are cancer free.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Carmel said:


> BYB live on an island, breed the same dogs over and over without caring about improving breed health, maintaining breed standard by letting their dogs be critiqued by other experts in their breed. They don't show so they never learn the standard and what is desirable. And on top of all that, there are too many homeless dogs to breed for no purpose other than money. They usually don't take their dogs back so many end up getting passed around or in rescue. I don't want to support breeders like that anymore. There are dog shows hosted by AKC in almost every city at least once a year, so anyone can go and meet good breeders for a potential puppy. Don't have to be in the dog world to get a well bred dog.


Your making a blanket statement. Where we got chloe he only bred them a couple times before retiring them. He also new tons about Goldens. The reason we new this was because we know a lot about Golden's and he strarted telling us stuff we already new. He also fed his dogs a high quality food. Proof was the big bags of food we saw. Gave us a starter bag of food we could mix with what we were going to be feeding. Asked for pictures so he could see the pups. Also gave us a guarantee. She was well vaccinated as she didn't need a shot when we took her to the vet a few days later. They came vet checked before picking her up. Although ours wasn't because we asked to pick her up on a sat and she was due for her vet check on tues.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Jake also had the great golden temperment. He was easy to train. If we had wanted we could have walked him without a leash. He was completely house broke at ten weeks when we brought him home.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Dana, I agree to an extent. When in Oklahoma, I fostered the young, highly adoptable but WILD ones. The only strike against them was the breeders didn't do their homework screening the families & the families didn't have or wouldn't provide what it takes to raise a golden. 

That being said, I've unfortunately seen far too many come through with medical issues & if it wasn't medical issues, it was fear aggression or dog aggression or severe resource guarding & guess what, not a single BYB stepped up to the plate when notified one of their dogs with these issues was now in rescue (surrendered w/ their papers). Heck even the "issue free" goldens were of no use to the BYBs as they had puppies to sell.

For me, there are only 2 options--support a reputable breeder or rescue.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

My opinion is that I don't keep 5-10 dogs at a time. I generally keep 2 at a time and after a puppy is brought home, that is it for another hopefully 15 years. Which if you calculate it out means that if somebody lives 90 years, they only will have 6-12 dogs in their life. Or fewer since some people when they get up in age decide they can't do it anymore. So bringing a dog home is a very special thing - and why not shoot for the moon if that is what you want, as opposed to buying on impulse and getting what you can immediately. 

Shooting for the moon (for me) is having a very specific look, style, temperament, trainability, health, and function in a dog. I spent a lot of time sitting on the side of the obedience ring and watching people I admire who have their dogs titled in everything imaginable heeling their dogs in the obedience ring. One lady especially with her CH/OTCH/MH/etc GSP - that dog had effortless movement and strength and just overall steadiness. I prefer the fire and flair of a golden in the obedience ring, but the strength and just overall balance and soundness that I saw with this GSP was something I really wanted in my next golden. 

My Jacks was jumping 24" at the time, but with him and another golden in the same classes - my instructor always said something to the effect she cringed when she saw the jumps because neither dogs were natural or comfortable jumpers and would throw themselves at the jumps - which upped the chance of the dogs crashing into the boards. Having a more natural jumper with sound structure means that he's just vaulting over the jumps with plenty of clearance - lower chance of him crashing through a high jump. This comes down to structure and soundness. I saw this in that GSP and it was exactly what I wanted when shopping for a puppy. 

Shooting for the moon for somebody else might just be having a golden retriever who has the coat, bone, pigment, and temperament of a golden shown in conformation. And/or being able to say X champion dog is related to their dog.... 

Just these two example (there are more of course) are things you are not going to find at those breeders who might have a bunch of reasons for not charging as much. 

My first golden was a backyard bred boy who cost only $250. He was actually originally $500 - but the puppies did not sell as fast as the breeder expected (the litter was 12 weeks old), so he slashed prices for the boys (still charged more for the girls since they could be bred and made money from). He was a pretty boy but had a lot of faults that we did not want to have in another golden. A lot of that you get only with very selective breeding, etc...

But yeah, you can find cheaper goldens out there. And yep - not everyone is going to pass a screening to buy a puppy from a better breeder. And yep, there aren't enough well-bred puppies out there for everyone who just wants a dog.

But me personally, I would never in good conscience "recommend" anyone that I would not purchase a puppy from - even if I stripped down to bare minimum of what I would want in a puppy. That is what a recommendation or encouragement comes down to. 

If somebody tells you to buy from somewhere or encourages you to do that - they are more or less agreeing they wouldn't have a problem buying a puppy from that place.


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## SunnynSey (Jan 17, 2015)

I don't think all byb, like show breeders, are alike. I have seen some byb who honestly take great care of their dogs and do right by the puppies they produce and their owners. I have also seen "show" breeders who are really no better than any byb, who are constantly pumping out litters with missing clearances and no titles. I agree, it's not always so black and white.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It depends upon the overall depth and quality of the breed in general in a given region.

In other words if you're in an area rich with a history of quality dogs to begin with, even the quality of BYB dogs will be better. The BYB's dogs may be a one or two generations away from Titled dogs, but when you study each line in the pedigree, you find titled dogs begin a couple of generations back and continue for several more generations back in time. The BYB's personal dogs my not have Titles and Clearances but their ancestors once or twice removed do.

Then you may be looking at a litter of BYB puppies in a region where the breed has a weak overall presence. Here you may see tight linebreeding on a small handful of dogs who have no credentials (Titles or Clearances) to speak of nor do their immediate ancestors for a dozen generations or more. 

Both are BYB's but the potential for a nice pet is very different with each of them.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I have been doing a lot of thinking about this over the past few months.

Another thread here mentioned the club I belonged to recommending a BYB that did no clearances. There really are no golden retriever puppies available in the Kansas City area for pet people. Now the BYB does have gorgeous and very lovable pet quality golden retrievers. They appear to be long lived. She does take them through training classes but does no competing, but my club failed the prospective buyers in recommending a breeder without clearances. The sad part was, there was nobody else my club could recommend - we are averaging now probably twenty requests a month!

What came out of this, is the posts in this forum were shown to this BYB breeder. Clearances were explained to her, and she is going to go forward in getting all her dogs she breeds cleared! In the meantime, we are changing our applications to clearly note for the breeders that want to be referred that they must follow the GRCA code of ethics, and we have also will change the forms for the prospective buyers to be sure to check for clearances, etc. 

I have been also been reading a lot about Penn Hip and OFA Hip clearances. My breeder does both, but she trusts the the Penn Hip more than the OFA. OFA is too subjective. Then hearing problems with Eye Cerfs sometimes being inaccurate. Makes me really wonder if we are making certain decisions based on this tests that are wrong.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I also think the puppy buyers need to be more informed. Byb is so much different then a puppy mill sometimes. If a byb is breeder breeds different breeds or has several litters of different ages. If their is bad living conditions you need to walk away. Chloe had four young children and tons of land where his dogs to run. His adults which he only had a couple were very friendly and greeted us like a golden should. He also retired females and gave them forever homes after a couple breedings.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Back when I did rescue there were three instances I fostered goldens that came with their AKC papers so I knew the breeders (total BYB) and pedigrees (one had some local show stuff 4-5 generations back, the other two total pet pedigrees). Ironically all three had major issues. Two had SEVERE hip dysplasia before a year of age. The third bit two neighbor kids before a year of age. All three I sent registered letters to their breeders letting them know the circumstances of their offspring landing in rescue, told them that rescue was handling it but if they would like to make a monetary donation to the rescue to help cover the expenses, that'd be great. And of course I recommended they stop breeding the parents of these dogs. Two of course never heard back from. The third I did and it was a doozy. This was the breeder of a 9 month old female with hips so bad she couldn't climb stairs or jump in the car. It was pitiful. They wrote me back and told me it was impossible for that dog to have hip dysplasia because you could not diagnose hip dysplasia before they are two years old :doh:

Most BYB have no idea it's a "thing" to have first right of refusal on taking the dog back. If puppy owners stay in contact it's like a big, unexpected bonus. Most puppy buyers have no idea that a breeder might want the dog back or even care what happens to them. Yes, even buyers who seek out "responsible breeders." Its a totally foreign concept. 

Again, the keys are education and peer pressure. It's the only way to change peoples' behaviors and make things better.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Back when I did rescue there were three instances I fostered goldens that came with their AKC papers so I knew the breeders (total BYB) and pedigrees (one had some local show stuff 4-5 generations back, the other two total pet pedigrees). Ironically all three had major issues. Two had SEVERE hip dysplasia before a year of age. The third bit two neighbor kids before a year of age. All three I sent registered letters to their breeders letting them know the circumstances of their offspring landing in rescue, told them that rescue was handling it but if they would like to make a monetary donation to the rescue to help cover the expenses, that'd be great. And of course I recommended they stop breeding the parents of these dogs. Two of course never heard back from. The third I did and it was a doozy. This was the breeder of a 9 month old female with hips so bad she couldn't climb stairs or jump in the car. It was pitiful. They wrote me back and told me it was impossible for that dog to have hip dysplasia because you could not diagnose hip dysplasia before they are two years old :doh:
> 
> Most BYB have no idea it's a "thing" to have first right of refusal on taking the dog back. If puppy owners stay in contact it's like a big, unexpected bonus. Most puppy buyers have no idea that a breeder might want the dog back or even care what happens to them. Yes, even buyers who seek out "responsible breeders." Its a totally foreign concept.
> 
> Again, the keys are education and peer pressure. It's the only way to change peoples' behaviors and make things better.


Yep, one breeder referred to his pup in the rescue as a "donation" & another one where the golden had deformed front legs & severe skin issues said we could "keep it" as she offered the family that bought her a 2 for the price of 1 due to her medical issues. 

Until puppy buyers demand better, these types of breeders will always exist & unfortunately it's always going to be at the expense of the puppies produced.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I suspect that for every horror story you can identify there are 100 happy, healthy, loving Goldens.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> In other words if you're in an area rich with a history of quality dogs to begin with, even the quality of BYB dogs will be better. The BYB's dogs may be a one or two generations away from Titled dogs, but when you study each line in the pedigree, you find titled dogs begin a couple of generations back and continue for several more generations back in time. The BYB's personal dogs my not have Titles and Clearances but their ancestors once or twice removed do.


I immediately thought of those breeders out there who purchase dogs with pedigrees and spend a good deal of time rooting through the pedigrees to find "good stuff" to promote when they breed. So then on their websites, they list all the champion dogs behind their dogs - which is deceptive, because of course they had nothing to do with those dogs at all. It's just all back history that they are trying to cash in on.

Other thing!

Just because a breeder does not show or put titles on their dogs, I don't consider them byb's necessarily.... 

Growing up - I had a friend through my riding club who raised and bred golden retrievers. This was somebody who did it because she loved the breed and had a lot of thought going into what she bred. And she did all the required clearances - which allowed her to approach other breeders to use their dogs as studs, so she wasn't just using her own dogs. 

Not that using her own dogs would have been a sign she was a byb either! I know somebody who has produced 2 litters now using dogs she owns. She repeated the litter because the puppies from the first litter turned out really well. And again, this is somebody who is very involved with the breed and does not behave in the way I generally think of with backyard breeders. And um, honestly - if she were nearer, I probably would have been VERY interested in one of the puppies. She does have obedience titles on her dogs, but really I love the look of the dogs.

With your true backyard breeders, I can think of two different types out there. First one is the family farm type. Where they breed everything they own as a matter of course. >.< And the other type would be those people who have a pretty dog and want puppies and go asking everyone they meet if they'd be willing to breed their pretty boy to their pretty girl. It's a lot of stuff done completely outside of any breed clubs, and there's just no intent or show of intent as far as becoming actually educated about the breed, breed health, and so on. 

Cancer's not the worst thing to be scared about in the breed. With all purebred dogs - there's a bunch of stuff that can go wrong regardless of where they come from. Big relief with my youngest being in the GRLS is that I do see a lot more analysis and numbers as far as things like his kidneys, thyroid, etc.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> I suspect that for every horror story you can identify there are 100 happy, healthy, loving Goldens.


I doubt it's that high & even if it was, does that mean it's worth it to those goldens that got the short end of the stick? Is it worth it, that my girl suffered horribly at the hands of her breeder in order to provide cheap puppies? Reading his obituary, he was portrayed as an animal lover & rescuer...so not the reality I know. Is it worth it for your own rescue to have the medical issues she does cause hey, her siblings probably turned out better?


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I've had two goldens now. Amber, who was a BYB, and the most wonderful dog in the world. She was sweet, loving, smart--all the things you would want from a dog. She was "flawed" with a small white spot on her chest. She died at 15.

A friend got a golden from another BYB in town. He was dumb, huge and not very trainable. A big sweet dog, but not one that I would have been happy to own.

Maddie, I got from Essex. She is smart, healthy and very trainable. She has her issues though.

Of my two dogs, both were/are great but I can't say that Maddie is a better dog than Amber was.

Both were field golden looking dogs. Max, the other BYB was a light golden. He must have weighed over one hundred.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

SheetsSM said:


> I doubt it's that high & even if it was, does that mean it's worth it to those goldens that got the short end of the stick? Is it worth it, that my girl suffered horribly at the hands of her breeder in order to provide cheap puppies? Reading his obituary, he was portrayed as an animal lover & rescuer...so not the reality I know. Is it worth it for your own rescue to have the medical issues she does cause hey, her siblings probably turned out better?


I think that's what many people forget about BYB's. Even if the puppies turn out ok, how is it affecting the dam? Are her owners forcing her to breed when she's underage, is she a beloved family pet, or is she an ATM?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Yes, every year many healthy puppies are bred by backyard breeders with no clearances. And every year many drunk drivers make it home safely. Yeah, people still have accidents when they drive sober, but the risks increase significantly when you're drunk. Which is why we say don't do it. 

I think there is a definite place for "non show" breeders to have pets available to the general public. But I'd still like to see those breeders doing health clearances.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

My very first Golden was a Collie mix. We got her from the Humane Society at almost 4 months old. She had been found as a tiny puppy, covered in mud, after her mother had evidently been hit by a car. She was very smart, very gentle, and mostly healthy for the 15 years that we had her.

My next Golden came from a backyard breeder who simply loved her dogs. My sweet Sabrina was only 3 when she was diagnosed with kidney disease that was probably congenital. She had severe hip dysplasia, hypothyroidism and arthritis. She was beautiful, intelligent, humorous, and my dearest love. She raised Charlie and Joker with gentle firmness and a lot of mischievous play. She ultimately died in my arms before her 8th birthday, when it was no longer possible to treat her kidney disease because she had also developed cardiac hemangiosarcoma.

My two boys, Charlie and Joker, were from the same backyard breeder. That one at least knew about clearances and had her dogs' hips tested. Charlie lived to be almost 13 and Joker is still with me, pushing 15. Charlie was hypothyroid. He had severe seizures for the last year of his life, probably caused by a brain tumor or lesions of some kind. He was my beloved Cookie Monster and King of Cuddles, a gorgeous boy who was not the smartest dog, but he loved to retrieve tennis balls and he stole the heart of everyone he met.

Joker is my psychic sweetheart and clock dog, smart and handsome, with thick curls. He is also hypothyroid and he has arthritis in his knees. These days we fight his hypertension, proteinuria, and bladder stones. But he is a Super Senior, after all, and he still enjoys his life. He adores Sunny, whom he raised with joyous patience, and lets her get away with anything and everything. She taught him to play again, something he forgot how to do after Sabrina died. They still enjoy good romps every day.

Sunshine Girl, better known as Sunny, is my first Golden from a truly reputable breeder. She is proof positive that the best of breeders can have problem puppy. Sunny was born with contracted tendons and almost starved before the breeder realized that the little girl couldn't get to her mother for milk. She was lovingly hand fed and the tiny feet were massaged and flexed, gentle physical therapy that allowed her to walk. Yes, the very reputable breeder did tell us all of this at the outset and we have a deal that she will help with the cost of my gal needs foot surgery, though I think we won't put her through that. Sunny is absolutely splendid to look at, except for the flat feet that may cause her real problems later in life. She is brilliant, energetic, strong willed, loving and funny...our Little Queen. If genetics are to be trusted, she will probably live to 13. I'll fight for longer than that, though.

So there you have the honest truth about the Goldens who hold my heart. I probably wouldn't buy from another backyard breeder because I will never forget my Sabrina's anguish at the end. She was a matchless girl, no matter her breeding, and the only thing I regret about buying her is that I couldn't have her with me for the long, full life that she deserved.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

So, if there aren't enough well-bred Goldens for all the people who want a Golden, what should people do?


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Loisiana said:


> Yes, every year many healthy puppies are bred by backyard breeders with no clearances. And every year many drunk drivers make it home safely. Yeah, people still have accidents when they drive sober, but the risks increase significantly when you're drunk. Which is why we say don't do it.
> 
> I think there is a definite place for "non show" breeders to have pets available to the general public. But I'd still like to see those breeders doing health clearances.


That isnt a very good example.

A couple of things come to mind. Lets say money is no object. Most families who just want a pet do not want to go through putting a nonrefundable deposit down and maybe not even getting a dog from that litter. I understand it weed out impulsive buyers. But to then be put on a waitlist for another litter instead of getting your deposit back is crazy.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> So, if there aren't enough well-bred Goldens for all the people who want a Golden, what should people do?


Like I was saying if people did their homework the puppymills and such would go out of business. Its easy to spot a puppymill on puppyfinder. It isnt rocket science. Then when do see a good byb you need to visit and ask questions.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Cpc1972 said:


> But to then be put on a waitlist for another litter instead of getting your deposit back is crazy.


I wouldn't put a deposit down on a breeder who did that in the first place. Most breeders will give back a deposit if their end of the deal falls through.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Dana - the honest answer is to encourage people to be good breeders and be honest and decent in their business dealings with puppy buyers. <- And since some people out there follow the "money talks, explicative walks" way of doing business, they get the point to start listening and doing when they can't sell puppies.

And then puppy buyers need to be a lot more selective and patient... and willing to go the extra mile. 

I don't think this means flying out of state to buy puppies who are just going to be pets.  But it might mean being open to driving 4-5 hours to buy a puppy as opposed to looking for a local breeder. 

I do think a lot of people get sticker shock when the last puppy they purchased was back in 90's or 2000's.... and they are finding that prices for an average pet puppy are like what it cost to purchase an import back then.  And I'm right there with everyone wishing prices were still capped under $1000, but prices for everything have gone up.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> So, if there aren't enough well-bred Goldens for all the people who want a Golden, what should people do?


They do the best they can in finding an ethical breeder. And I hope they buy insurance for the dog so they are not caught unprepared by the health issues that even the best of dogs have if they live long enough. 

Sabrina's health problems cost over $15,000, not counting routine care. Just her final stay in the ICU was $5,000. Charlie ran up over $20,000 for surgeries, time in the ICU for cluster seizures, and seizure meds. Joker will probably catch him soon, with current bills running close to $1,000 per month. 

What people need to realize is that providing the care dogs need is not cheap. If you can't afford a well bred dog, you probably can't afford to care for one that is _not_ well bred. In my own experience, the healthiest dogs are mixed breeds, not lovely creatures bred to a standard. Ultimately, we pay our money and take our chances.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

DanaRuns said:


> So, if there aren't enough well-bred Goldens for all the people who want a Golden, what should people do?


There is reality coming to knock at the door. 

The number of serious fanciers that produce quality litters each year are not enough to satisfy the demand for Golden Retrievers. Commercial Breeders produce Golden Retrievers because there is an unsatisfied demand in the marketplace for them and a potential for profits.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

This is something I think about a lot - right now I have 5 families seriously wanting to add a dog to their family and we are struggling to find a good match. Many of them have not purchased a dog from a 'reputable breeder' before and are trying to learn as we go. We're looking at adults or puppies from breeders or adult dogs in rescue (that are from foster homes). 

Knowing that a 'good breeder' is not a long term guarantee of good health or normal behavior makes this all the harder to convince families to invest the time, money, energy, and patience. Me knowing that many people breeding dogs are sometimes less than truthful (whether intentional or not) at times makes this hard. Knowing that bad luck happens and something unfortunate and random could happen to cause injury or illness (happened to me too!). Almost all of my friend with purebred dogs from decent breeders (above average health tests on relatives, titled parents, decent puppy raising) have had problems - severe aggression, extreme health problems, significant behavior issues, unusual cancers, abnormal structure). Maybe some of that could be anticipated or prevented...

But - like in your other post today - for moral and ethical reasons I can't go for anything less than decent puppy raising, parents with accomplishments or work, and appropriate health testing for the breed.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

GoldensGirl said:


> Charlie ran up over $20,000 for surgeries, time in the ICU for cluster seizures, and seizure meds.


With all due respect, I don't think that's entirely fair. If I have this right, Charlie was 14 years old, and you spent that money extending his life for another year. I think any 14-year old Golden can have very expensive medical issues, no matter how well bred. I know I spent over $9,000 at one point for my very well bred first champion, and he died two days later. When our dogs get to 14, I don't think we can count the cost of medical care as an example of how much poor breeding costs. Or good breeding. It's just the cost of old age. They have to die of something, but we still fight it as hard as we can...


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> With all due respect, I don't think that's entirely fair. If I have this right, Charlie was 14 years old, and you spent that money extending his life for another year. I think any 14-year old Golden can have very expensive medical issues, no matter how well bred. I know I spent over $9,000 at one point for my very well bred first champion, and he died two days later. When our dogs get to 14, I don't think we can count the cost of medical care as an example of how much poor breeding costs. Or good breeding. It's just the cost of old age. They have to die of something, but we still fight it as hard as we can...


Not quite right. Charlie died a few weeks before his 13th birthday. He had a splenectomy, eye surgery, and major dental surgery around age 7 to 8. That year tallied around $13,000, if my memory serves correctly. I might have saved $2,000 if I hadn't waited for Charlie to tell me it was time, but probably not more than that. 

I agree with you that the issues of old age are exactly that. It has nothing to do with the quality of the breeding, unless good breeding contributes to longevity (as I think it does). But the costs are still there, and my point is that people either have to be prepared to pay the bills or they have to be prepared to say goodbye, perhaps earlier than the dog's condition requires. We both know that is not a choice made easily.

With Joker, I am not fighting to extend his life. I am fighting to maintain the quality of his life and I will hold him close and stroke him when he is ready to say goodbye. He has had a fine life. I think the breeder did well for both Charlie and Joker.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> I suspect that for every horror story you can identify there are 100 happy, healthy, loving Goldens.



Ah but yes. To what end are you writing this post? You just started another thread that you rejected a potentially great puppy because the breeder in the past has bred underage dogs. You can't defend BYBers yet reject a puppy from another breeder on the same basis. Would you let one of these BYBs breed to Gibbs? If not -- why not?? 
I understand your basic argument -- despite all the railing against BYBers, not every dog and not even a majority of dogs created by them have big problems. But that doesn't mean what they're doing is OK or they don't need education. Maybe your point is just for us not to exaggerate -- and that I agree with.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> Yes, every year many healthy puppies are bred by backyard breeders with no clearances. And every year many drunk drivers make it home safely. Yeah, people still have accidents when they drive sober, but the risks increase significantly when you're drunk. Which is why we say don't do it.
> 
> I think there is a definite place for "non show" breeders to have pets available to the general public. But I'd still like to see those breeders doing health clearances.



Great post and I'm in perfect agreement.

There is a HUGE market out there for the $1000 pet puppy whose parents have the basic 4. Not show dogs, just great pets and the breeder does their homework and clearances. They can make a good chunk of change, the price is right for the buyer, it's improving the breed OVER THE AVERAGE backyard bred dog with no clearances at all. 

Unfortunately this breeder is a rare bird! Which is weird! What you have instead are the same pet dogs being bred WITHOUT all their clearances but marketed as "Champion lineage"/"English Cream"/"American Red" and all that baloney, and then they charge the same as a show breeder! What the heck!?


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## MommyMe (Jan 20, 2014)

Thank you for posting this. Our first golden joined our family after a search of the classified section in our local paper. I honestly had no idea that there were "different kinds" of breeders, I saw AKC and thought that was all I needed. Our sweet girl lived to be almost 14 1/2 and aside from a couple of bouts of vestibular disease, she was healthy until the day she died. Along those lines, our second golden was adopted from a rescue as a young adult, and we owned her for almost another 13 1/2 years as well. Honestly, it wasn't until we acquired our current girl as a retired momma dog from a breeder a few years ago that I started to really educate myself about breeders and the process. 

With our first dog, there was no contract, no questionnaire, I don't really remember any paperwork at all until we received the paperwork from the AKC showing that our puppy was only 6 weeks old when we brought her home. Our current girl came home with a contract (which our 2 rescues did as well), her pedigree and copies of all of her clearances. Her breeder and I remain in contact plus her breeder has groomed her, boarded her, and assisted us with our puppy search last year.

Were the people we got our first golden from horrible people? No! They had 2 dogs that they loved, who were beloved members of their family. Could they have done things differently/better? Yes! But interestingly enough, I was recently able to find hip clearances for both parents on offa.org even though I'm not sure they were officially recommended way back then (and they were never mentioned when we bought our puppy).

I don't regret bringing our first girl home for a second. She was sweet, smart and loving. However now that I know what I know, I will do things differently in the future. Is getting a puppy from a reputable breeder a guarantee that the dog will have a long and healthy life? Sadly, no. However, I know that such breeders put blood, sweat and tears into producing the best they can for the _future_ of the breed we love. There is experience, passion, knowledge and consideration behind every litter they plan, plus I have someone to go to for life of our dogs. 

But it does have to be said that the fact that we have continued to choose to add goldens to our family (we have numbers 4 and 5 now) is a testament to just how wonderful we thought our first (BYB) golden was.


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## The life of Piper (Feb 24, 2015)

I think that it all depends. Not all bybs are bad, and not all show breeders are good! Just IMO...


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Most of our dogs have ben BYB dogs. Two reputable breeder dogs. Unfortunately both the two dogs bred with clearances and thought out process have not had an easy and healthy life. One of them was a golden. 
One of our BYB dogs had the same fate. It was one that my husband bred. Since we gave the puppies to family members and friends he kept the one that thought would be harder to train, not the one that would most likely give him the best hunts or the most trophies. He went downfall after his mother died. 

I wish more people would do clearances on their puppies. BYB puppies and otherwise. Just because you get a dog as a pet or a well bred dog it does not mean that you should not know early in life what the rest of your puppy's life will be like. How to proactively prepare for it's future health.
You can find all four clearances and plus given at discounted prices for less than what you purchased your puppy for. Why not invest that in it? Plus it does not cost anything to put it all on the k9data.

In the long run, let that sift the breeders apart.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> Ah but yes. To what end are you writing this post? You just started another thread that you rejected a potentially great puppy because the breeder in the past has bred underage dogs. You can't defend BYBers yet reject a puppy from another breeder on the same basis. Would you let one of these BYBs breed to Gibbs? If not -- why not??
> I understand your basic argument -- despite all the railing against BYBers, not every dog and not even a majority of dogs created by them have big problems. But that doesn't mean what they're doing is OK or they don't need education. Maybe your point is just for us not to exaggerate -- and that I agree with.


Yes, to avoid exaggeration, but also to question our conventions. I think we, here, believe that it's a simple matter for BYBs to comply with the GRCA COE if only they would care enough, and that the fact that they don't is evidence that they don't care about the dogs and are just greedy. But I wonder if maybe that's a mischaracterization. And I wonder if most BYB dogs aren't pretty darn healthy. There are no studies, so how do we really know?

I am Facebook friends with one, and only one, backyard breeder. She's my sole window into that life. It's fascinating to see, and it doesn't look like the cold-hearted greed that is portrayed here. She loves her dogs. She prides herself on their temperaments and "cute" factor, and many of her puppies find their way into movies, TV shows and advertising, which she is very proud of. She follows her puppies their whole lives, and many of her puppy buyers are all Facebook friends with each other. They talk about their dogs constantly, exchange pictures, celebrate birthdays, and have a wonderful shared experience over these dogs. It's like a little family. This breeder has no clue about clearances, and I'm sure that, to her, breeders who compete with their animals and get all sorts of expensive medical tests look like a very distant and elite club, with no connection between them and real people like herself. She just sells wonderful family pets that are loved by families. And as far as she can tell, her puppies are healthy and happy. How many BYBs are like that? Is she the exception or the rule? I have no idea. But I don't think anyone else does, either. Not really.

No, I won't let a BYB breed to Gibbs, and I won't get a puppy from a breeder who breeds underage dogs. I wrote that other thread for some of the same reasons as this one: to question convention. By the conventions here, the breeder I just turned down looks like a breeder people here would approve of, but it turns out she isn't, and it's not easy to see. And some top breeders guard secrets about health problems in their dogs like jealous lovers, and they commit at least lies of omission, and their breeding practices, with COIs as high as 30, can be more dangerous than breeding two pets together in the back yard. It can be very difficult to discover the truth about the dogs of some very well-respected breeders, and some practices can be very detrimental to the individual puppies and to the breed. So, what's really "good," and what's really "bad?"

I wonder if despite the anecdotes, BYB dogs are perhaps generally healthy, and I wonder if those breeders love and follow their puppies like my Facebook friend does. After all, there are no studies, and we only hear about the horror stories of sick or abandoned dogs. The thousands of success stories are completely invisible. We never hear about them, so we don't consider them. For all I know, it could be like standing in Times Square and being unable to see 90% of the people, and making judgments based on the 10% we can see, all of whom are drunks and miscreants.

We characterize breeders in nice, neat boxes, when maybe it isn't so simple in real life, not so black and white. Life is complex, and has a way of making itself healthy in the absence of human xrays and databases. I wish we had statistics on BYB dogs, but we don't. We only have anecdotes; anecdotes that lead a lot of people to believe that _all_ breeders are greedy and pumping out puppies for profit, filling the world with unnecessary suffering in the name of money. If that convention is wrong -- and it is -- maybe some of ours are, too. We just don't know.

I know this all makes me sound like I'm advocating for BYBs. I'm not. But I'm not certain of our conventions, either, and am kind of "thinking out loud" in this thread.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Dana that is a great post.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

GoldensGirl said:


> Not quite right. Charlie died a few weeks before his 13th birthday. He had a splenectomy, eye surgery, and major dental surgery around age 7 to 8. That year tallied around $13,000, if my memory serves correctly. I might have saved $2,000 if I hadn't waited for Charlie to tell me it was time, but probably not more than that.
> 
> I agree with you that the issues of old age are exactly that. It has nothing to do with the quality of the breeding, unless good breeding contributes to longevity (as I think it does). But the costs are still there, and my point is that people either have to be prepared to pay the bills or they have to be prepared to say goodbye, perhaps earlier than the dog's condition requires. We both know that is not a choice made easily.
> 
> With Joker, I am not fighting to extend his life. I am fighting to maintain the quality of his life and I will hold him close and stroke him when he is ready to say goodbye. He has had a fine life. I think the breeder did well for both Charlie and Joker.


I'm sorry, I got that completely wrong.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

posted in wrong thread .................


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

Our boys are from BYBs. When my boyfriend went to buy our first pup Derek, he asked whether they had papers, only to be told "no one looks for papers anymore". He had no idea of puppy purchase etiquette, so just bought the puppy anyway and surprised me with him. Luckily Derek turned out to be an awesome dog, 2 years old and no health issues so far.

Charlie on the other hand is from the same BYB, and from the same litter as Derek, but we ended up rescuing him from an awful situation a few months ago. He was mistreated and never socialized and we're still working on his issues. Healthwise, he is good. 

So for me personally, my issue with BYB is that they do not check up on the households where the dogs are going, and I dread to think about the other pups from that litter and all other litters. I could not rest if I bred a dog and didn't know for sure whether the pups were going to a loving home.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I've had 5 Goldens......4 from BYB and 1 from a reputable breeder. I currently have 3.

My first Golden, Reno, passed away in November, 2012 at the age of 12.5 He was diagnosed with hemangio the day before his 11th birthday; underwent a splenectomy and was given only months to live. He made it 17 months before the cancer got the best of him and we had to say good-bye to him. Prior to this, Reno had been to the vet 2 times (aside from his yearly vaccinations). Once for an ear infection and once for a cut paw.

Phoenix, my second golden, passed away in 2009 at the age of 9 due to complications from bloat. Prior to that, he had visited the vet 1 time (for an infection due to chewing a stick). 

Austin, who is 6, had a few ear infections in his first couple of years and has maybe seen the vet 3 times for various things (ie. upset belly, cut paw, etc.). 

Lincoln, who is also 6, same as Austin although he's never had an ear infection. 

Both Austin and Lincoln have had their eyes examined yearly for the past 2 years and have perfect eyes and generally are very healthy. Lincoln has some dog aggression issues that just started a couple of years ago (no idea why). Austin is a gem. He has the best personality and loves everyone and everything!!

Lexx will be 3 in May and comes from a reputable breeder. He is extremely smart but honestly, has been my most difficult dog. He has been to the vet more times than my other 2 put together. He also has cataracts in both eyes. He was cryptorchid. He shows nervousness around various things. He loves other dogs but despises eye contact from dogs and will react by barking/growling. He is a barker. 

I have socialized all of my dogs in similar ways. All dogs have attended puppy classes. Lexx, because I do a lot of performance work with him, has had more socialization than Austin and Lincoln. He has improved immensely with maturity but he has been a challenge. 

Both Austin and Lincoln came from families who had the mother and father and wanted puppies. They were loving families who loved their dogs. No, they did not do health clearances. I got them before I knew better. My bad!!!

Lexx came from a breeder who has been breeding for years. His sire was the #1 conformation Golden in Canada in 2013 and carries titles at both ends.

I don't condone BYBing and although my 4 BYB dogs have been easier than my "breeder" dog (in most aspects) I would not go to another BYB again. Will my breeder dog end up being more healthy in the long run as compared to my other boys, only time will tell. All I know is that I love all of my boys equally and can only hope and pray that each of them live long and healthy lives!!!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Laurie said:


> I've had 5 Goldens......4 from BYB and 1 from a reputable breeder. I currently have 3.
> 
> My first Golden, Reno, passed away in November, 2012 at the age of 12.5 He was diagnosed with hemangio the day before his 11th birthday; underwent a splenectomy and was given only months to live. He made it 17 months before the cancer got the best of him and we had to say good-bye to him. Prior to this, Reno had been to the vet 2 times (aside from his yearly vaccinations). Once for an ear infection and once for a cut paw.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your post. I am confused about the last paragraph though. It is true that there is no measurement for health in the BYB dogs. And frankly the health of the GRCA COE bred dogs is incomplete (not all puppies bred by those standards have been checked). But if health and temperament are at the core of getting a puppy and such puppy is bred by a BYB why not go there? What if this entire "stacking the deck in the favor of a pup" is really a misbelief that only because it has been repeated long enough people have come to actually take it as gospel. While there is some truth in it I am afraid that it is quite incomplete.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> Yes, to avoid exaggeration, but also to question our conventions. I think we, here, believe that it's a simple matter for BYBs to comply with the GRCA COE if only they would care enough, and that the fact that they don't is evidence that they don't care about the dogs and are just greedy. But I wonder if maybe that's a mischaracterization. And I wonder if most BYB dogs aren't pretty darn healthy. There are no studies, so how do we really know?
> 
> I am Facebook friends with one, and only one, backyard breeder. She's my sole window into that life. It's fascinating to see, and it doesn't look like the cold-hearted greed that is portrayed here. She loves her dogs. She prides herself on their temperaments and "cute" factor, and many of her puppies find their way into movies, TV shows and advertising, which she is very proud of. She follows her puppies their whole lives, and many of her puppy buyers are all Facebook friends with each other. They talk about their dogs constantly, exchange pictures, celebrate birthdays, and have a wonderful shared experience over these dogs. It's like a little family. This breeder has no clue about clearances, and I'm sure that, to her, breeders who compete with their animals and get all sorts of expensive medical tests look like a very distant and elite club, with no connection between them and real people like herself. She just sells wonderful family pets that are loved by families. And as far as she can tell, her puppies are healthy and happy. How many BYBs are like that? Is she the exception or the rule? I have no idea. But I don't think anyone else does, either. Not really.
> 
> ...


I joined here shortly after we lost our Diamond, a golden retriever/shepard mix. She had the heart of a golden and the body style as well - just that she had more of the classic coloration of a shepard. But if you were outside my apartment and she was looking out the window and all you saw was her beautiful face, you'd think you were looking at a golden. 

Shortly after she died, I was made aware of Noah's litter. I then found their FB page for this litter and the one before it. I saw pictures of the puppies from the last litter and went and "stalked" some of the adopters to see how their pups were maturing. I liked what I saw. They've even had one puppy reunion, where all the pups from the first litter all planned a get together at six months old. 

I saw pictures of mom and dad and liked their looks as well. I had already contacted the "breeder" - definitely a back yard breeder, when I had joined this forum. I did look for GR breeders in GA prior to finding them, and really didn't know what I should be looking for, but I do know that the $2000 to $2500 price for a pet was far more than we could consider. 

When I joined here I learned about clearances questions to be asked, etc, but I was already emotionally invested in these pups. Probably not the smartest decision, I'm sure, but the timing, how everything fell into place for us, and a host of other considerations just made this seem like the right time and pup for us, so we went through with it. Had I never joined here, as a pet lover, knowing I wanted a GR as our next dog, I would have had no clue about clearances, etc. 

This was their dogs' 2nd litter, and when I picked up Noah, I asked if they planned any future litters with this pair, they said that this is probably the last litter for mom - they don't plan to breed her again. 

They are "friends" on every FB page of each of the two litters' new parents, they've puppy sat for the owners of one of the first litter's pups and posted pictures enjoying having her visit, and they ask for the pup's new owners to share pictures as they grow. While they arguably are not doing EVERYTHING right, they're, at least in my opinion, emotionally invested in these pups and how they are doing in their new homes. 

Were there any health guarantees? Probably not, I didn't ask - when I take on a pet, it's for life. 

What will I do to mitigate any health risks? I plan to slowly grow Noah, not exactly the slow growth plan, because I'm not sure I agree with the level of exercise called out in it, but the general theory behind it seems sound to me - not overfeeding Noah and allowing his bones to grow too quickly, keeping him leaner to also help level our odds AGAINST cancers that can be early onset with overweight goldens. We're also going to delay neuter him to allow his growth plates to close. At 18 months to 2 years old - we'll re-evaluate to decide if we'll even choose to neuter at all. We understand the responsibility that brings, and have no desire or plans to EVER breed him. The decision is 100% health related and the benefits I've come to believe come from delayed or no neuter at all. 

And finally - I am researching the pet insurances out there right now to decide which one will be best for us. Having the costs to care for a young cat with Chronic Renal Failure, and then losing him six months later to that horrid disease last year, and then Diamond's cost of late life care have made me realize the importance of getting pet insurance. 

I hope that Noah lives a long healthy life with us. Did I know the risks of no clearances before finalizing this decision? Yes (though only a week or two prior to bringing him home). Was it a calculated risk on my part? Yes. I was already emotionally invested. Am I a bad person for making that decision? I hope not. 

I do know this - Noah will be a beloved family member for the rest of his life. I will be investing my heart, my time and my finances in giving him the best life and home that I can possibly provide for him. Will we stumble and fall along the way - I'm sure. But we'll get up, dust ourselves off and march forward, hopefully with the wonderful continued guidance from the folks here.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Yes, every year many healthy puppies are bred by backyard breeders with no clearances. And every year many drunk drivers make it home safely. Yeah, people still have accidents when they drive sober, but the risks increase significantly when you're drunk. Which is why we say don't do it.
> 
> I think there is a definite place for "non show" breeders to have pets available to the general public. But I'd still like to see those breeders doing health clearances.


I so agree with this, and I also agree with a point Dana made about black and white thinking. 

So instead of "BYB vs. Responsible Breeder," in two or three categories I tend to think of a spectrum.

At the bottom are the millers. They don't care about the basic health of breeding dogs or puppies. They just want to churn out as many dogs as they can with the lowest possible margin. If they clean the cages, it's because the inspector is coming. They adhere to only the most basic legal requirements they need to in order to keep the business going. These people are bad people.

Up from there are HVBs who don't clear but care about their dogs as livestock. They keep them clean, give them vet care when they're sick, and aren't necessarily bad people. But they're still doing something unethical in my book because I think it's unethical these days to breed a dog without taking advantage of the cost-effective tools that exist to lower the chance of health problems. So people who breed without those tools are doing something unethical in my book. I can't support it.

Up from there are BYBs who breed beloved family pets partially for cash and partially because they want to share their experience with others. They have a wonderful dog, and they want to give a wonderful dog to others and make a little money. But these folks fall on a spectrum too. There are those who are careless and don't take the time to educate themselves (what I'd really call a BYB). And then there are those who take some time to educate themselves and do clearances. With the careless ones, I really think that's unethical, because it puts dogs at unnecessary risk of serious suffering. With the careful ones, though, I see no problem. While dogs from competition pedigrees are what I like, because I have specific goals, I don't see a problem in funding people who clear their dogs but don't rise to the level of the definition of "hobby" breeding.

So if you're a "BYB" who isn't competing and is just breeding dogs you own, but you are clearing them and taking basic, cost-effective steps to ensure health and temperament, then you're above the ethical line on my spectrum. I wouldn't tell anybody not to buy from you, and even if that litter might not be for me, I think it's perfectly fine.

BTW - even among highly respected breeders who are theoretically doing "everything right," you end up hearing horror stories about times they cut corners, withhold serious health information, breed way more litters than they disclose, etc. The more involved I get with dog people, the more I hear about these situations. And they're not rumors or unsubstantiated stories. They're firsthand experiences with these breeders from people I trust. So the world just doesn't fall into hobby/BYB/mill categories.

On the flip side, once the dog is in the world, I don't care where he comes from. The dice have already been rolled on health and temperament, so now you deal with what you get. If it's a client dog, a dog I ended up with for some reason, or a dog I meet on the street, I do what I can to help that dog, and whether I fall in love with that dog or not has to do with our relationship, not with his history. My dollars will never go to fund anybody below the ethical line on my little spectrum, but my heart goes wherever it wants.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

As I've mentioned before, we as purebred dog lovers have a greater issue now to contend with.....too many breeders and too many homeless dogs. This is why we HAVE to support only the truly serious breeders and rescue. If we do not start doing this, laws will soon banish ALL dog breeding. This will bring dog breeding to the underworld, and you can bet there WILL be puppies for sale, for cash only from greedy puppy mill type breeders that will jump from breed to breed and disappear within a few years from sight to keep from getting caught. All of the good serious hobby breeders who have made their dogs their lives and are willing to spend all their time and resources on their beloved breed, will be penalized and put out of business. If we love our breeds, we have to get involved now in rescue, our breed clubs, and supporting only the best serious hobby breeders.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Thank you for your post. I am confused about the last paragraph though. It is true that there is no measurement for health in the BYB dogs. And frankly the health of the GRCA COE bred dogs is incomplete (not all puppies bred by those standards have been checked). But if health and temperament are at the core of getting a puppy and such puppy is bred by a BYB why not go there? What if this entire "stacking the deck in the favor of a pup" is really a misbelief that only because it has been repeated long enough people have come to actually take it as gospel. While there is some truth in it I am afraid that it is quite incomplete.


Claudia....you ask a good question!! My DH says the same thing. All of our BYB dogs have been awesome in terms of health (thus far) and temperament. Why would we spend the money and go back to a breeder when our breeder dog has been a challenge? Don't get me wrong, Lexx is wonderful, smart, handsome and overall, a very nice boy. His biggest problem is that he is spoiled rotten!!

I LOVE my BYB boys....Austin is my heart dog and the mere thought of losing him shakes me to the core. Fortunately, my guys came from loving families who genuinely cared about their dogs and their puppies but obviously had no knowledge of health clearances. I have also come across Goldens who have come from BYBs and are an absolute mess.

Having said that, I have also seen Goldens from reputable breeders, with health clearances, passing away at a young age, a lot of times from some form of cancer. 

I know that health clearances are not a guarantee that my dog will live a long and healthy life but when I'm looking at a pedigree that shows longevity, good eyes, hips, heart, etc. I suppose in my mind, I would feel more confident in purchasing a puppy from such a breeding. With my BYB dog, I have no knowledge of anything (other than I have been fortunate so far). 

Not sure if that makes any sense!!!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I think the wrong message to take away is that health clearances are useless and you're no better off with a breeder who does them than a breeder who doesn't.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I actually don't have a problem with people wanting the clearances and everything. What I don't like is the perception that every byb is a puppy mill and byb dogs are going to be sick and have problems. Yes there are puppy mills and breeders not caring but there is also byb that care where you can get a healthy family pet. Most people just want a nice family pet. It is up to people puppy shopping not to go to a puppy mill and make sure where your buying is a good situation.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I know Laurie. I am conflicted myself. If I will ever breed my dogs there will be no question that the health clearances will be in place. Why? Because I already do them. I have been slacking on the eyes and heart. Not for breeding purposes but for my own edification. So then why can't the BYBs do the same? 
Would showing the BYBs that their puppies are healthy and they are true to temperament and aptitude encourage them to take more risks or would they become more responsible in their breedings? 

In a perfect world (or my perfect world) health clearances would be done on all dogs. 

Since I hope to pursue field trials with Belle I am conflicted about what preliminaries to do. How long should I wait. Do the Penn Hip at 6 months? Should I wait until 12 months and do the OFA? Which one should come first? I did not start Rose with long and harder terrain field until after I had her OFA hips and elbows done. Even playing Frisbee I used it more for training purposes and kept it low key before the tests. Heck, even the zoomies I have kept to a very low key for the same very reason.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Interesting thread and a reminder that the world is never as "black and white" as we frequently make it out to be!
I am not a breeder so my perspective comes from being a 25 + year lover of Goldens. We were super lucky that the first golden we got was from a couple who only bred one litter but had a clear sense of what they were doing and why they were doing it - they were vets so had more knowledge about some of the health issues facing goldens as well as the breed standard, the importance of temperament, etc. I don't remember what they did in terms of clearances back then. At the time, we could have just as easily (and without knowing anything) gotten a dog from a "backyard breeder" with less knowledge of the breed and i would not have known any differently. 
It seems that the emphasis on clearance, careful attention to pedigrees, etc has become MORE important because we saw so many problems with goldens in the 80's, 90's (and beyond). I recall seizures being a significant issue along with severe hip displasia, aggression, etc. As we have been able to learn more about genetics it seems that ethical breeders are paying more attention to health issues vs. breeding to make the "prettiest" dog. That said, we also hear horror stories of "big time" breeders doing unethical things to their dogs and to their customers!
The popularity of our breed creates a "demand" which probably attracts some to think that breeding goldens might be a nice way to make some extra $$. Certainly, puppy mills are part of that process!
I view the health clearance issue and attention to genetics, conformation, temperament, etc as important for the long term protection of the breed.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

My contribution to the anecdotal evidence:

All of my "well bred" dogs have passed hips, elbows, eyes, heart and thyroid. I've never had one with a health problem that they didn't die from. And as a rule they have been more "vigorous" (for lack of a better word) than the rescues (BYB and mill origin) that I have had. All have had rock solid temperaments, though Ziva is a little intense and headstrong for a house dog and I hope she calms down as she ages. One died a month before turning 12, of cancer.

Of my rescues, one has bilateral hip and elbow dysplasia. One became a marine rescue dog and saved lives and lived to 14. I did not clearance test any of them except the one diagnosed dysplastic. All of them lived past 12 years old. All but two died from cancer. One current rescue is dog reactive sometimes, fine at other times. Other than that, all had good temperaments, though generally calmer than my show dogs.

When I volunteered for a GR rescue, I dealt with a lot of dogs that had temperament problems. That was the biggest difficulty, lots of faulty temperaments in the poorly bred dogs. Some had health issues, most did not.

All my well bred Goldens "look like" Goldens, and most of the rescues departed from the breed standard in physical ways.

I don't know what this says. Nothing, really. Just more useless anecdotal evidence.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I wonder in the rescue dogs how much the temperment problem was a product of where they came from rather then it being a puppy mill or byb. Unless they were rescued from a puppy mill most likely they were rescued from bad owners.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> I know Laurie. I am conflicted myself. If I will ever breed my dogs there will be no question that the health clearances will be in place. Why? Because I already do them. I have been slacking on the eyes and heart. Not for breeding purposes but for my own edification. So then why can't the BYBs do the same?
> Would showing the BYBs that their puppies are healthy and they are true to temperament and aptitude encourage them to take more risks or would they become more responsible in their breedings?
> 
> In a perfect world (or my perfect world) health clearances would be done on all dogs.
> ...


I have done prelims on all of my dogs thus far...I honestly don't know why I do because I know I am giving up any of the dogs that I currently have if they fail a clearance. I know I making myself a horrible breeder by not letting go. I just can't....I guess I am too much of a pet person and they mean more to me then a breeding.

I did my boy's prelims at 9 months because he was having some intermittent limping (Pano), but wanted to make sure nothing else was going on. His prelims looked good then and did at 2 years also. My girl, Remi, I didn't do until 16-17 months of age because someone told me to get them done before I started investing money into showing her. But, I like to do prelims after a year of age. I think most do Penn hip earlier than OFA.

How do you keep zoomies to a minimum? LOL! : My youngest is a jumping bean and can not get her to stop her jumpy habits. So, in general, I am more worried about her because she has not filter on what she can or can not jump on!


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Cpc1972 said:


> I wonder in the rescue dogs how much the temperment problem was a product of where they came from rather then it being a puppy mill or byb. Unless they were rescued from a puppy mill most likely they were rescued from bad owners.


might be -or- might be dogs are more likely to end up IN rescue because of temperament issues. In other words, they are over-represented in rescue because people might be more likely to give up (on) a dog with temperament issues.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

This is a hard subject, and one I don't talk about "publicly" often because my thoughts on it are not always popular. There are some well known golden breeders who have litters where I wouldn't take a puppy from the litter if it was free.....actually, even if they paid me. The pedigrees make me sad and scared for the puppy buyers who don't know what type of genetic timebomb they are bringing into their home. So to me, those litters are not better than a BYB. But a BYB is not necessarily better than that breeder either......mostly because most BYBs are generally lacking in information and knowledge about pedigrees and health. So the ultimate question becomes, what is better - a breeder who gives very little information (the BYB) or the breeder who gives you a lot of information (well known breeder) where the information scares the bejeezus out of me? My answer to that is NEITHER. Neither is better. I don't want a puppy from either of those scenarios.

Sure, there are no guarantees. I lost my wonderful Kira at just 3 years old from a flukey bloodclot in her heart following knee surgery. Weird stuff can happen. But overall a "reputable breeder" - to me - means someone who is doing their best to breed for health, temperament and soundness. It's not guaranteed but I would rather support the person who is giving it their best shot. That is why I think people should do their best to support reputable breeders.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Carmel said:


> As I've mentioned before, we as purebred dog lovers have a greater issue now to contend with.....too many breeders and too many homeless dogs. This is why we HAVE to support only the truly serious breeders and rescue. If we do not start doing this, laws will soon banish ALL dog breeding. This will bring dog breeding to the underworld, and you can bet there WILL be puppies for sale, for cash only from greedy puppy mill type breeders that will jump from breed to breed and disappear within a few years from sight to keep from getting caught. All of the good serious hobby breeders who have made their dogs their lives and are willing to spend all their time and resources on their beloved breed, will be penalized and put out of business. If we love our breeds, we have to get involved now in rescue, our breed clubs, and supporting only the best serious hobby breeders.


I think this is going to become a real problem. And I feel the biggest part of it is people's ignorance to the issue. There are so many wonderful family pets wasting away in shelters or being euthanized. If all a person wants is a family companion, why do they need a certain breed if they can't afford to buy from a reputable breeder. If you're relying on a puppy from a mill or a farm dog who's never been off their land having a perfect golden temperment just because they're purebred, you may as well adopt an 8 week old puppy from a shelter and take the same gamble. Or doodles, which I now see puppies of almost daily. I only think that each one is a waste of a shelter dogs life. There's no guarantee on any of these dogs having the correct features because they're never tested in that capacity either. Just because there's a market for something, I don't believe that BYB's NEED to fulfill it.


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## 1oldparson (Mar 5, 2013)

For what it's worth on the anecdotal side, our first golden was from a byb close to 20 years ago. I don't suppose they were "bad" people, they had a male and female from which they produced pups. I wasn't interested in papers, just wanted a dog. She lived 14 years without any major problems. She did have skin/allergy issues and glaucoma that rendered her pretty much blind when she died. Our second was a stray of unknown lineage. I know she was purebred but that's all I know. No skin or allergy issues. She lived to 12 when she died of what I think was probably hemangio but we never got a diagnosis. Both of these dogs had sweet dispositions and were never lame. Our current pup was purchased from a "hobby" breeder that we found through the local GR organization before we found this forum. She is the first registered dog I've had. I believe there were 4 litters on the list. Two had clearances - which we didn't understand the value of - and two didn't. Obviously the two litters with clearances cost more, at least double. The breeder we got our pup from didn't have clearances. A while after joining this forum I looked up the pedigree of our pup and found out that there had been virtually no clearances anywhere. Our pup, Ginger, has a sweet disposition and is healthy so far. 

If I had to do it again, knowing what I know now, I certainly would have investigated the litters with clearances. But not knowing at the time, I took the listing by the local organization as some sort of approval. We had just lost our 12 year old and needed to fill the void. I was looking for a registered dog in hopes she would live longer. She is definitely our last puppy and probably our last dog. 

That being said, I appreciate all who are committed to the improvement of the breed. As some may be aware, I come from an agriculture/ranching background. For many years I was biased against purebreds because of what I saw damaging cattle, horses and dogs. There was a trend in the 1930's -40's toward shorter coupled beeves - which resulted in dwarfism in some of the top lines. Winning racehorses were bred because of their speed, but many lines lacked fertility which is exacerbated by breeding practices. The popularity of Dalmations resulting from the Disney movie encouraged indiscriminate breeding practices that caused a lot of health problems in the breed. I was involved in commercial beef production, we weren't interested in pedigrees, we wanted healthy stock. I saw the advantages of crossbreeding and the weaknesses of inbred purebreds and that affected my thinking for many years and, to some extent, it does so today. We're talking about close to 50 years folks.

For what its worth, I believe that those committed to the breed have an obligation to the health of the breed and to avoid breeding to specific characteristics or fads that weaken the genetics. I commend all of you who do that. At the same time, there will always be those who don't get involved at that level and ignorant folks like me who are more interested in getting the pup that's "right" for them. 

Not sure this helps anyone, but its my 2 cents.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I can somewhat put my experience in words about your shelter dog question. Our dog when we were kids was a mut. She wasn't a shelter dog but we got her for free. If it had been up to my mom we probably would of gotten a puppy from the shelter. My dad feels like he can't bond with a shelter puppy. Why I don't know. Although I feel really bad it's not really my responsibility to rescue dogs that people were irresponsible with. Two years after our mut died we got jake. Our first golden puppy. We fell in love with the breed. From how easy he trained to his temperment. So when he passed we wanted another golden. We just don't think that the clearances are nessecery to get a healthy happy family pet.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

But what I'm saying is that you don't know the dogs temperament if its not tested or proved in some way, not anymore than you'd know a shelter dog's. And I'm not speaking about just clearances. By purchasing and owning dogs, all the others become your responsibility as well. You can't distance yourself from all other dogs just because you only wanted one. What about your dogs litter mates? Would you be fine with seeing them die because you didn't choose that one?


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> My contribution to the anecdotal evidence:
> 
> All of my "well bred" dogs have passed hips, elbows, eyes, heart and thyroid. I've never had one with a health problem that they didn't die from. And as a rule they have been more "vigorous" (for lack of a better word) than the rescues (BYB and mill origin) that I have had. All have had rock solid temperaments, though Ziva is a little intense and headstrong for a house dog and I hope she calms down as she ages. One died a month before turning 12, of cancer.
> 
> ...


I'm wondering on the bolded - could that be attributed to early spay/neuter though? 

From here: 

Risks of Early Spay and Neuter



> And if you are wanting a Golden that looks like the dogs on this website, let me assure you that a Golden Retriever puppy that is altered early will have longer legs, less bone, a narrow and longer muzzle, be a couple inches taller and not resemble its littermates. It will NOT look like the dogs you are seeing here.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> Thousands and thousands of Golden Retrievers are sold every year by back yard breeders and others who do not adhere to the GRCA COE. They aren't all aggressive dogs who live miserable lives with hip dysplasia and die young from cancer. I personally know several BYB Goldens who have fantastic temperaments and live wonderful long lives.
> 
> This is a true thing that you'd think wasn't true by reading the posts on this forum (including mine). So I just wanted to say this truth, and see what other people think of it. Politely, please.



You are stating the obvious, but people who truly care about the breed will not purchase a dog from a breeder that has not done their best to improve/maintain the breed. If everyone followed that guideline, the breed would benefit.

Also, those who purchase a dog without proper health clearances are taking a *greater risk* of having a sick dog and/or early death pet, than those who choose not to purchase these dogs. That is just plain common since. You can choose to smoke cigarettes also, they may kill you and make you sick in time. Although you could live to be 100 anyway....but are you going to take that chance? It is all about common since! Isn't it?:doh:


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

When we got chloe almost a month ago we visited with his adult dogs. They were friendly and had good temperments. It kind of gave us a good feeling that her litter would be the same.

When we started our search we had three places to visit. The first place the guy was selling for A friend. We couldn't see parents or anything. They got knocked off the list and we moved on.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Before we got Chloe we did look into rescues. A lot of them had health issues. We did not want to deal with a dog already known to have medical issues. We had just lost jake to cancer. A lot of the rescues were older. Also because of just losing a golden that was not for us. Even the younger ones said no children under a certain age or must be only dog. Well we have to young children ages three and six. Also it has to get along with other dogs because my sister has two dogs and she will be taking chloe when we are out of town. So when we looked into it was not for us. Btw Chloe and my sisters one hundred Lb chocolate lab get along great.


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## Goldylover2 (May 1, 2014)

I've had two goldens in my life. My last golden Ginger had all the temperament a golden should have. I purchased her for 250 bucks. She had ear issues and tore her crucial ligament. She lived to 10.5 years old. She was huge for a female weighing 95 pounds. My current golden Caleb had issues as a pup. He was out of control and showed aggression. He was also purchased for 250 bucks thirteen months ago. After taking him to a trainer. It's all good now. He was dominate and I think I did everything wrong when he was a pup. I thought he would be just like Ginger. Boy was I wrong. I still wouldn't trade the experience I had with him, even though there were several bad weeks. I learned a lot. I just don't see myself shelling out one or two grand for a pup.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

ArchersMom said:


> But what I'm saying is that you don't know the dogs temperament if its not tested or proved in some way...


I'm assuming you mean by showing, right? To me, showing proves that the dogs to be bred look like the breed they're supposed to look like. As far as their temperament being tested, I'm not convinced.

Professional handlers can cover up "things" in the ring. Temperament most of all, I believe. There was a CH. harlequin Dane years ago that is in most of the pedigrees on the West Coast and I'm sure in the East also. He was well known to have "issues". :no:

My sister's friend went to look at a litter at his breeder's house and her 6 year old daughter almost had her face taken off by him. She bought a puppy anyway. Why? Same reason people bred to him knowing how he was. He threw absolutely drop dead gorgeous puppies that would consistently win in the ring. And breeding nice harls is extremely difficult. A crap shoot at best. 

He never once snapped in the ring because his handler knew him like a book. And you know what? I'm pretty sure that judges might have known his reputation, also. But they still put him up. The breeder was very, _very_ well known. One of the big ones. Huge...

On the flip side, my sister's friend's dog was a total mush. Super sweet dog. Never had an issue with aggression. But I did know a few others from him that were a bit "touchy". They were also CHs. 

So, I don't think a CH title is an end all for knowing a dog's temperament. I do think that titles _after their names_ say a great deal about it, though.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

More like anything that gets the dog off their property. Especially hunt tests or field trials, they are hunting dogs after all. Therapy work, obedience or agility also prove the dogs are smart and trainable. Show titles are the last thing I'd look at but at least they prove that the breeder is putting something into their dogs besides breeding them.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

When we got Max, I enrolled us in puppy class at Petsmart. At the first class, the trainer asked us where we got our puppies. I said we got Max from a local breeder - not knowing that this was considered a backyard breeder (BYB meant "bring your own bottle" to me). She asked if they did clearances. I'm pretty sure that the blank look on my face answered her before I did.

I never heard of clearances till I joined this forum. I'd be willing to bet - and I'm not much of a gambler - that if you walked into a group of average pet owners and asked about clearances, most of the would have that same blank look.

I'd also bet that most of them would look at you like you lost your mind if you suggested they should pay $1000 for a puppy. My husband would say that he didn't want a show dog, he wanted a pet - implying that only show dogs should cost that much. 

This forum is full of wonderful people who adore our dogs and want the best for them. I don't think we can be considered "average" pet owners. 

Until the rest of the world knows about health clearances - and doesn't equate them with show dogs only - this problem is not going to go away. As long as people want a puppy, and who are we to tell them they can't have one? - there will be puppies for sale.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

kwhit said:


> I'm assuming you mean by showing, right? To me, showing proves that the dogs to be bred look like the breed they're supposed to look like. As far as their temperament being tested, I'm not convinced.
> 
> Professional handlers can cover up "things" in the ring. Temperament most of all, I believe. There was a CH. harlequin Dane years ago that is in most of the pedigrees on the West Coast and I'm sure in the East also. He was well known to have "issues". :no:
> 
> ...


 Yes a finished CH by no means equates to how good the dog's temperament is.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

We got my 1st golden, Autumn, from a backyard breeder. I believe she was well-intentioned, but just plain ignorant of what responsible breeding really involved. At the time, I didn't know what a responsible breeder looked like either. The breeder had 6 kids and one female golden and thought it would be good for the kids if she bred the golden. The pups were extremely well-handled by all those kids. Autumn is the type of dog kids can use as a pillow or step stool and she'll just lay there. She hasn't an aggressive bone in her body and was chased off her own yard by a 5 lb Maltese once! She was my 4-H obedience dog and she placed 2nd her first show and 1st at every one after (county level); and she always qualified for state level and never placed worse than 5th (usually 30-40 dogs in the class). The last year I did 4-H (I got too old  ) she won her class and high point! I did show her in 1 AKC obedience class and she got first place and a qualifying score, but I never completed the title because of college and starting my job. She has never had any major health issues and she just turned 15 on March 5th! I love her to pieces and am so glad to have her. So yes, you can get a good dog from a backyard breeder, but I will never be getting a golden from a backyard breeder again because they don't all turn out to be like Autumn. So my thought is that backyard breeders mean well, but are just un-intentionally ignorant of responsible breeding habits (like clearances and titles). Its the puppy millers who are irresponsible and know it, but don't care so long as they make money.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldlover68 said:


> You are stating the obvious, but people who truly care about the breed will not purchase a dog from a breeder that has not done their best to improve/maintain the breed. If everyone followed that guideline, the breed would benefit.
> 
> Also, those who purchase a dog without proper health clearances are taking a *greater risk* of having a sick dog and/or early death pet, than those who choose not to purchase these dogs. That is just plain common since. You can choose to smoke cigarettes also, they may kill you and make you sick in time. Although you could live to be 100 anyway....but are you going to take that chance? It is all about common since! Isn't it?:doh:


Is it about common sense? I don't know. Common sense tells us a lot of false information. But what does common sense say about a choice between a BYB breeding their two family dogs together versus a breeder breeding their champions with all the clearances? I guess it depends on how much information you have. If you knew that the COI of the BYB litter was 4%, while the litter from the champions was 30%, would that affect what "common sense" tells you? What if you lack that information, even though the COIs still are what they are? I'm not always a big believer in common sense. It will lead you to fall right off the edge of the earth!


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

As far as temperament in Champions, I realize that a Champion might go through and get a lot of wins with many judges, but in buying a puppy from a big breeder wouldn't a buyer get to meet the dogs at shows? I was concerned about that myself when my Golden got old and I started to think about the future, but at shows, I went around and met the different Goldens looking for a breeder. I knew what I liked look wise, but temperament was a first for me with my next puppy. In the Newf world, a breeder touting a nasty temperament is not going to go too far as a judge grabs their face and looks into their eyes. I do know a couple "bad" breeders who, yes, have had a big special out, but once that special was retired their big run of fame ended. I think it's a buyers responsibility to go to shows and meet the breeders and their dogs. Then go to your prospective breeder's home and see them there (on top of checking all the clearances and such). At least there are ALOT of Goldens at the shows. With Newfs we are lucky to get 10 and most of those might be by the same breeder.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Carmel said:


> As far as temperament in Champions, I realize that a Champion might go through and get a lot of wins with many judges, but in buying a puppy from a big breeder wouldn't a buyer get to meet the dogs at shows?


I don't know about that. There is so much AI it's hard to see both show parents of a litter. I'm in California. My first show dog's sire lived in Virginia. My second show dog's sire lived in Texas. My third show dog's sire lived in Washington. And lots of puppies are born of deceased sires. It's rare you get to meet and interact with both parents of a litter that's not a BYB litter, I think. Most hobby breeders look at studs from all over. And even if the stud is fairly local, it may be hard to meet him.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

DanaRuns said:


> I wonder if despite the anecdotes, BYB dogs are perhaps generally healthy, and I wonder if those breeders love and follow their puppies like my Facebook friend does. After all, there are no studies, and we only hear about the horror stories of sick or abandoned dogs. The thousands of success stories are completely invisible. We never hear about them, so we don't consider them. For all I know, it could be like standing in Times Square and being unable to see 90% of the people, and making judgments based on the 10% we can see, all of whom are drunks and miscreants.
> 
> We characterize breeders in nice, neat boxes, when maybe it isn't so simple in real life, not so black and white. Life is complex, and has a way of making itself healthy in the absence of human xrays and databases. I wish we had statistics on BYB dogs, but we don't. We only have anecdotes; anecdotes that lead a lot of people to believe that _all_ breeders are greedy and pumping out puppies for profit, filling the world with unnecessary suffering in the name of money. If that convention is wrong -- and it is -- maybe some of ours are, too. We just don't know.
> 
> I know this all makes me sound like I'm advocating for BYBs. I'm not. But I'm not certain of our conventions, either, and am kind of "thinking out loud" in this thread.


Be carefull, you sound like you're getting older and letting your personal experience enter into the picture and illuminate just how grey things really are. 


I don't like terms like BYB or puppymill because there is no set definition for them. If you breed even one litter, there are people that will call you a BYB or Puppymill. 

There are high volume breeders and low volume breeders. 

There are breeders who look before they leap and those that don't and leave everything to chance.

I save the "Not Responsible" tag for those that simply had two dogs of the same breed and put them together to produce a litter of puppies without any prior planning whatsoever. They might be small breeders or commercial breeders you just don't know until you check. 

The rest reside in a wide ranging grey area in which some are preferable to others but that preference depends upon the personal aspirations and experience of the beholder.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I've been holding my breath for so long about some other feelings I have regarding backyard breed Goldens. Although I do not approve of this type of breeding and would discourage others from purchasing such a puppy, I nonetheless give support to people who have already purchased their pups and brought them home. I still compliment on the puppies when new members introduce their less than stellar looking pups on GRF. I love all Golden Retrievers period! I love saying hello even to the BRB Goldens out there. I have seen so many lovely Goldens that were not of best quality. People still have their reasons for purchasing them, and while I do not endorse them, I do understand them. Some people are purchasing such dogs due to inexperience or perhaps cannot get approved by a reputable breeder because both husband and wife are working yet have plenty of income and resources to otherwise give the dog the best care through hiring others to exercise the dog for instance. 

I see beautiful Goldens and I ask people where they are from, and when they tell me a name of a breeder like Church Mountain Kennel, I smile and say okay. I often mistake some less than stellar Goldens for Eldorado dogs.:doh: It's not always that obvious.

There are also what I call substandard breeders which are not stellar, but are barely reputable with the required clearances like those that can usually be found through doggies.com. I had actually contacted a few of those breeders before in 2011 when I stumbled upon Golden Retriever Central, where the more stellar breeders list their Goldens. That is how I found Eldorado. 

There are some reputable breeders that are considered not as stellar as others. Some Goldens you would see at the Eukanuba Cup for instance, are not always endorsed by GRCA. I think the Goldens from Eagle Ridge for instance are cool, since Eagle Ridge is where the Buddies puppies for the Air Bud franchise were bred, but they don't have the best reputation. 

I'm not gonna criticize somebody I meet who has a beautiful lovely Golden just because it is not from a reputable breeder.
I'm just nuts for Goldens all around!:cookoo:


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Megora said:


> @Dana - the honest answer is to encourage people to be good breeders and be honest and decent in their business dealings with puppy buyers. <- And since some people out there follow the "money talks, explicative walks" way of doing business, they get the point to start listening and doing when they can't sell puppies.
> 
> And then puppy buyers need to be a lot more selective and patient... and willing to go the extra mile.
> 
> ...


 4-5 hours is is how long I plan to travel for my next pup when I am ready for one.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

GoldensGirl said:


> They do the best they can in finding an ethical breeder. And I hope they buy insurance for the dog so they are not caught unprepared by the health issues that even the best of dogs have if they live long enough.
> 
> Sabrina's health problems cost over $15,000, not counting routine care. Just her final stay in the ICU was $5,000. Charlie ran up over $20,000 for surgeries, time in the ICU for cluster seizures, and seizure meds. Joker will probably catch him soon, with current bills running close to $1,000 per month.
> 
> What people need to realize is that providing the care dogs need is not cheap. If you can't afford a well bred dog, you probably can't afford to care for one that is _not_ well bred. In my own experience, the healthiest dogs are mixed breeds, not lovely creatures bred to a standard. Ultimately, we pay our money and take our chances.


My first dog was a Lab/German Shepherd mix for $150 that I got out of the classifieds where the BYB purebreds were also listed. I had told my relatives when I introduced him that I would have gotten a Golden, but that I could not afford the $300 pricetag.  I was a college student on a shoestring budget living with my widowed mom who had breast cancer, working my way to a better future. I really wanted a puppy, and I was able to budget for my Lab/GSD. I overcame lots of behavioral problems along the way learning the hard way about the demands of active large breed dogs. 

Thankfully, I never got a purebred from the classifieds. My Lab/German Shepherd mix Coal lived to be 13 with no serious health problems. He had a little arthritis, but that was because of his age. He was also a Delta Pet Partners therapy dog.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

Priska came from a BYB.No health tests done on the parents.Amazing character and a typical Golden who loved water and retrieving.Never had a bad limp but died of cancer, at age 10, even though she was healthy all her life.
So yes, you get a great dog frm them and be lucky.


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

Actually, I feel that BYB's are the dogs that need to be adopted the most and here's why. I got my girl from Craigs List. The breeder wasn't really breeding exactly, he wanted another hunting dog so knocked up his female golden with another random male golden and was selling the puppies cheap. He NEVER took them to the vet. My girl had 2 types of worms and scabies when I picked her up at 8 months. It took another 6 weeks to get her healthy.

The dogs raised by good breeders and even shelter dogs had better care than my girl did.

Despite that, she has turned into an amazing dog. She's a big loveable clown. She is extremely smart and aside from being a bit stinky just for attention now and then, she has always been terrific. Around 6 months we packed up her crate and she has slept on her own and had full access to the house since then. She has never destroyed any furniture (socks though, aren't quite so safe.)

I don't know if she will have health issues but her two year x-ray showed no signs of hip displaysia. Overall, she is a healthy, happy golden. I don't regret where I got her. It is the opposite, I am glad that I took her away from a place that clearly wasn't taking good care of her.


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## MaureenM (Sep 20, 2011)

Just wanted to add a random thought on temperament and titles on the back end of the name. I am really new to dog sports, (wish I had done this years ago). At this point I only do obedience. There was a time when I thought that all the dogs at these shows and trials would all have good temperaments. In my mind, if they're out there doing obedience with other dogs all around, they should be both smart, trainable, and nice to people and dogs. A couple show n goes into this and I learned quickly how wrong I was. Maybe the majority are nice, I don't know. I do know however that some dogs can get titles, and high ones at that, but you don't want to sit near them with your dog. Period. I have learned that if someone is sitting with their dog, and there seems to be a lot of extra room around them, there is a reason. One practice show we were at, there was golden next to Finley doing stays. We were still doing novice so I didn't leave the room, although this was an Open stay. The lady to my right also didn't leave but as we were waiting she told me to keep my eye on that golden. He was the reason she didn't leave her dog alone in the ring. Apparently he has quite a reputation for being not so nice and randomly going after other dogs. Just one example of many...


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I think that dogs being out and competing is _some_ indication of temperament, but not a _complete_ indication. It shows dogs are biddable, good workers, smart, attentive and several other things they need to be. It may indicate a certain amount of confidence. But it does not show that they are not aggressive or reactive. Still, it is some indication that they are likely not aggressive or reactive.

I've seen hundreds of show dogs, agility dogs and obedience dogs. Of those, in the last two years I recall a grand total of _two_ Goldens that displayed aggressiveness. Both were toward other dogs. One was at the GRCA Western Regional Specialty when the dog in question went after the dog standing behind it. To her credit, the breeder immediately apologized, excused herself and her dog from the ring, and she had the dog sterilized. The other was a dog handled by a professional handler. He kept the aggressive dog in competition, and tried to manage the dog as best he could. But _everyone_ competing knew that this dog was aggressive. It was impossible to keep it quiet from the Golden community. (I'll bet goldenjackpuppy probably knows who I'm referring to just by this brief description.) And it adversely affected this handler's career for some time.

I think, generally, the dogs in conformation have really good temperaments. They have to be good in crowds of people and dogs, or they can't do their jobs. With 20 or more people and dogs mashed together waiting to enter the ring at the same time, if a dog isn't bulletproof he's not going to be able to deal with that kind of crowding and jostling, and if there is a temperament problem it will likely come out (as it did in my two examples). I can't say as much with agility and obedience dogs, because they don't often have to deal with the kinds of crowding and close quarters that the conformation dogs do, except perhaps in group obedience situations.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> I think, generally, the dogs in conformation have really good temperaments. They have to be good in crowds of people and dogs, or they can't do their jobs. With 20 or more people and dogs mashed together waiting to enter the ring at the same time, if a dog isn't bulletproof he's not going to be able to deal with that kind of crowding and jostling...


I can see that with Goldens because there are _so many_ being shown. But with a lot of other breeds, there aren't the number of dogs being shown to be that crowded in the ring.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

kwhit said:


> I can see that with Goldens because there are _so many_ being shown. But with a lot of other breeds, there aren't the number of dogs being shown to be that crowded in the ring.


They still basically have to have the equivalent of a CGC in order to be shown. The judge is going to be handling them and touching them all over to evaluate structure. They have to be generally obedient and they have to tolerate a lot of grooming. They still have to be in a crowded venue and able to tolerate stress/noises/people/other dogs. Regardless of breed, they'll be excused if they're agressive, etc. It probably is easier to hide it in a less popular breed but I still think that as a general rule, they have to have a decent temperament to be shown successfully. A lot of family pets with good temperaments won't stand still and allow someone to feel them all over, ha!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Christen113 said:


> They still basically have to have the equivalent of a CGC in order to be shown. The judge is going to be handling them and touching them all over to evaluate structure. They have to be generally obedient and they have to tolerate a lot of grooming. They still have to be in a crowded venue and able to tolerate stress/noises/people/other dogs. Regardless of breed, they'll be excused if they're agressive, etc. It probably is easier to hide it in a less popular breed but I still think that as a general rule, they have to have a decent temperament to be shown successfully. A lot of family pets with good temperaments won't stand still and allow someone to feel them all over, ha!


I think this is a smart post, and I agree with it completely. Showing a Golden in conformation may not be proof of a good temperament, but it will certainly expose a bad temperament.

For my dogs, they _love_ all the attention, and grooming, and the judge going over them, and moving around the ring (they get treats!  ), and I swear they somehow know that the applause is for them.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

I actually agree that not all dogs that come from a BYB are “bad” or “unhealthy” or “not socialized.” There are also goldens from show lines that are bred by very reputable breeders that I wouldn’t take for free because I don’t see the health and longevity that I like to see in a dog I plan to own. I can also say that after having owned dogs that came from BYBs that I see a definite difference and feel like there’s a tremendous amount of value in a well-bred golden and I wouldn’t go the BYB route again. A lot of the temperament issues that people see in BYB goldens may not even be the breeding itself-my guess is it’s largely a lack of knowledge and training on behalf of the owners. 

Do I regret any of the BYB goldens? Not at all. We had a golden growing up that lived to be 14.5 years old and was one of the sweetest dogs ever. We got her from people that bred their two goldens because they loved them (one of which was a pet store golden so no doubt a puppy mill). There wasn’t a champion in her line but we loved her and she was healthy up until the very end. She also was very timid in public and around strangers and other dogs and difficult to train. Our first golden was from a breeder that we believed to be good at the time (back in the 80s) but she died at 6 from cancer and my parents spent thousands trying to cure/prolong her life (and they’re still breeding and now have “English Creams” and “Goldendoodles so I don’t think it’s fair to put them in the hobby breeder category even though that’s what we believed at the time). We had another one that was an accidental breeding but from champion lines-she was very pretty, easy to train but was fairly hyper and had horrible skin issues and other ailments throughout her life-that said she still lived to 15. My girl Lacey, was from a woman that at the time would have been considered a backyard breeder (she’s now showing/competing/breeding) although she had clearances on her dogs and was breeding dogs from known lines. I adored her and unfortunately lost her this last December. She was gorgeous, so smart, sweet and just a generally wonderful dog. Her breeder socialized them and loved on them and if I were recommending a dog to someone that couldn’t afford a $2000 dog, I’d hope that they would find someone like her to purchase a puppy from. Ryleigh also came from a BYB so to speak but she had clearances on the parents. She owned the mother and father and was breeding to continue her line. She had dogs from every generation up to the great grandfather. So far Ryleigh has been healthy as well. And then there’s Cooper. Fingers crossed he grows up to be very healthy and lives to an incredibly old age. He’s from a very well respected breeder, has all of his clearances, and champions throughout. He’s been so easy to train and he’s got a perfect golden temperament. I can’t say enough good things about him and he was worth every single penny.

What I’ve seen in newspaper ads and similar other advertisements is that backyard breeders are often charging the same amount as well respected hobby breeders. I think a lot of people fall into the trap of they’re willing to settle for a puppy they want now. If I pull up the local classifieds, there’s one litter for $675, one for $975-$1100, one for $1350 and they go up to as much as $3000. Not one mentions clearances. To me, there’s a huge distinction between someone trying to bridge the gap between a hobby breeder and BYB that is knowledgeable and caring and breeding pets because they love their dogs and the breed and people like the ones posting in the paper that are in my opinion out to turn a quick profit. I also feel like by going with a reputable hobby breeder, you're increasing your odds of getting a healthy, long lived, intelligent, sweet golden that meets the standard that everyone loves them for and I think when you're making a (hopefully) 15 year commitment, you want to have the odds in your favor.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Maureen - I had the same thought.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Christen113 said:


> I can also say that after having owned dogs that came from BYBs that I see a definite difference and feel like there’s a tremendous amount of value in a well-bred golden and I wouldn’t go the BYB route again.


^^^This.

I, too, see a definite difference between my BYB rescues and my well bred Goldens in structure, coat, temperament, vigor, and general health. Not one of my well bred dogs has ever had so much as an allergy or hot spot, and they have easily passed all their clearances. They have rock solid, bulletproof temperaments, and they love everyone. They are super strong and athletic, and can go all day. They have tremendous confidence and courage, and are very centered; never nervous, frightened or shy. They are "birdy," are fantastic retrievers, love water, and they never have a bad day. They learn quickly and eagerly. And at the end of the day or when they need to be put away, they have a very distinct "off switch." And they are all the same in that regard. Have I just been lucky? I don't think so. I think that's the difference; that's what careful breeding is all about.

My BYB and mill rescues, of which I have had several, are a veritable grab bag of physical, temperament and behavioral issues. Not that they are all a mess, but not a single one has been without issues (while not a single well bred dog has had any issues). I love my rescues just as much as the well bred dogs, and maybe even a little more because they need me more than the well bred dogs do.  Don't get me wrong, every one of them has turned into a great dog, but in some cases it has taken years of work to get them there.

But I notice a definite difference. Before I had well bred dogs, I wouldn't have been able to even see the difference, but after having them it's glaringly obvious. But like I said, maybe I've just been lucky.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

DanaRuns said:


> ^^^This.
> 
> I, too, see a definite difference between my BYB rescues and my well bred Goldens in structure, coat, temperament, vigor, and general health. Not one of my well bred dogs has ever had so much as an allergy or hot spot, and they have easily passed all their clearances. They have rock solid, bulletproof temperaments, and they love everyone. They are super strong and athletic, and can go all day. They have tremendous confidence and courage, and are very centered; never nervous, frightened or shy. They are "birdy," are fantastic retrievers, love water, and they never have a bad day. They learn quickly and eagerly. And at the end of the day or when they need to be put away, they have a very distinct "off switch." And they are all the same in that regard. Have I just been lucky? I don't think so. I think that's the difference; that's what careful breeding is all about.
> 
> ...


110% agree


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## 1oldparson (Mar 5, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> But I notice a definite difference. Before I had well bred dogs, I wouldn't have been able to even see the difference, but after having them it's glaringly obvious. But like I said, maybe I've just been lucky.



I think that's part of it. For those of us who've never had a well bred dog, we don't know the difference. We're happy with who we have. There is an element of chance no matter where you get your dog. From this forum I've learned you can minimize risks with clearances but you can't avoid them all together. My heart breaks for those who seem to have done everything right and still lose their pup early while others don't know any better and get a long-lived, healthy sweetheart.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Rescues are a totally different scenario they come most of the time from bad owners who give them up for a host of reasons.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Cpc1972 said:


> Rescues are a totally different scenario they come most of the time from bad owners who give them up for a host of reasons.


You're right. We got them from all sorts of situations: owner dies; military assignment; new baby; drop-off at shelter; stray or lost; the dog is "getting old"; bankruptcy; eviction/foreclosure; city finds too many dogs at house; etc. Some of them were "bad owners," others loved their dogs dearly. I remember one that came with a multi-page note about how to properly care for and love the dog. That was heartbreaking. With another there was a whole litter of brand spanking new puppies from a BYB who had a stroke. They all had to be bottle fed until we found a surrogate. So you're right, they come for a "host of reasons," and with varying human-caused problems.

I don't know that it's always "totally different," as we would get loved and socialized dogs. But I get what you are saying.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> I've been holding my breath for so long about some other feelings I have regarding backyard breed Goldens. Although I do not approve of this type of breeding and would discourage others from purchasing such a puppy, I nonetheless give support to people who have already purchased their pups and brought them home. *I still compliment on the puppies when new members introduce their less than stellar looking pups on GRF.* I love all Golden Retrievers period! I love saying hello even to the BRB Goldens out there. I have seen so many lovely Goldens that were not of best quality. People still have their reasons for purchasing them, and while I do not endorse them, I do understand them. Some people are purchasing such dogs due to inexperience or perhaps cannot get approved by a reputable breeder because both husband and wife are working yet have plenty of income and resources to otherwise give the dog the best care through hiring others to exercise the dog for instance.
> 
> I see beautiful Goldens and I ask people where they are from, and when they tell me a name of a breeder like Church Mountain Kennel, I smile and say okay. I often mistake some less than stellar Goldens for Eldorado dogs.:doh: It's not always that obvious.
> 
> ...


I am quite sure you may want to rephrase that! Either way - it almost sounds like you are not sincere in your compliments and I guess we are getting again into this "superior product" stuff that is absolutely incorrect at best.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> You're right. We got them from all sorts of situations: owner dies; military assignment; new baby; drop-off at shelter; stray or lost; the dog is "getting old"; bankruptcy; eviction/foreclosure; city finds too many dogs at house; etc. Some of them were "bad owners," others loved their dogs dearly. I remember one that came with a multi-page note about how to properly care for and love the dog. That was heartbreaking. With another there was a whole litter of brand spanking new puppies from a BYB who had a stroke. They all had to be bottle fed until we found a surrogate. So you're right, they come for a "host of reasons," and with varying human-caused problems.
> 
> I don't know that it's always "totally different," as we would get loved and socialized dogs. But I get what you are saying.


I always feel bad when a owner has to give up their beloved pet and there is no family to step in and help.


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## brianne (Feb 18, 2012)

An interesting thread.

I guess I just have more useless, anecdotal evidence, but...

Of the 3 goldens I have owned, Chum is probably the handsomest, but doubtless comes from a BYB, probably an irresponsible one as he had several homes prior to coming to me (yes, he has temperament issues with dogs). He came from a rescue organization. My other 2 goldens were poorly bred. The male was over-sized and also had temperament issues (shyness, especially with men) but my heart and soul girl was absolutely everything a Golden should be temperament-wise.

I'm grateful for the knowledgeable breeders who work so hard to better the breed. I'm sure there is so much more to the science of breeding and genetics than I will ever understand. 

I've never owned a well-bred Golden, only rescues, strays or animal shelter alumni. I keep planning and planning but then an irresistible, needy dog comes along and my plans go out the window as the new arrival steals my heart. I'm okay with that.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I had a BYB german shepherd years ago I bought from a BYB who was fear aggressive. My friend had one from the same BYB, same issues. I loved him and he was great with family, I spent a lot of money with a behaviorists to "fix him" but I knew what he was capable of, so never trusted him with people he did not know. It was very stressful and the reason why I changed my breed to the golden retriever and learned about well bred dogs.


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## Eclipse (Apr 21, 2014)

I saw this posted on a local rescue group's page. I stared at it for a couple seconds and I knew what point they were trying to get across, but I didn't understand how the average dog owner would be able to tell which Golden was the better bred one. Or how these pictures would effectively get their message across. I'm not well-versed in confirmation, and some pet owners might not be either, so it might confuse the target audience.

They way they used the pictures seemed like a weird way to prove their point, but maybe that's just me? I thought some other people in this thread might like to see it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yeah, weird graphic!! Besides the awful topline (AND I'VE SEEN THEM LIKE THIS IN THE RING --- or dogs who are CH and age has taken its toll...) the dog on the left is a perfectly decent looking golden. I'm not all that crazy about the one on the right...


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Eclipse said:


> I saw this posted on a local rescue group's page. I stared at it for a couple seconds and I knew what point they were trying to get across, but I didn't understand how the average dog owner would be able to tell which Golden was the better bred one. Or how these pictures would effectively get their message across. I'm not well-versed in confirmation, and some pet owners might not be either, so it might confuse the target audience.
> 
> They way they used the pictures seemed like a weird way to prove their point, but maybe that's just me? I thought some other people in this thread might like to see it.


Well, the point is they cannot prove anything. More and more "reputable" goldens are bred with incorrect coat which is wrongly called correct, more and more goldens are bred without the stamina of a couple hours hunt let alone an all day hunt. And the health touted is just not there.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Gary Yourofsky said ... 
" No one in this movement is challenging the love that we have for our companion animals. But this love has created a huge, inexcusable problem. We love these animals to death, and I say "to death" because we breed them, and then we breed more of them, and then we keep on breeding them, until we end up murdering five to ten million UNLOVED, UNWANTED, HOMELESS dogs and cats ANNUALLY in dog and cat slaughterhouses that we euphemistically refer to as shelters or humane societies " ... 
Until every cage is empty.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*My Goldens*

My first Golden, Smooch, was adopted from Golden Retriever Rescue. She was a stray running the streets of Chicago. Don't know if she was from a BYB or not. Nevertheless, Smooch was unbelievably sweet. Everyone said that about her and she was very loving. Our vet cried when he put her to sleep at around the age of 12. He believed she had some form of cancer. Our second Golden, Tucker, was adopted from an owner on this forum, who told me he was from a BYB. Tucker is a wonderful and sweet boy who is now six. 

Just my two cents, I will ALWAYS adopt and I could care less if a dog is pure bred or from a backyard breeder. AS my hubby and I get older, we may adopt a Sheltie the next time.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

What constitutes a BYB vs Hobby Breeder vs puppy mill? At what point do you say someone has crossed the line from one to another? When I was told about this thread my immediate response was to yell RESCUE only...but that's no more fair then a puppy mill yelling BUY. The science and education that an ethical breeder brings to the table is mind boggling. The gene searches, the past health histories, the diet studies, etc etc, and those that do it to further the breed should be applauded. But somewhere, somehow we need to stop the over proliferation of the breed. I rescue because they need to be rescued - period. I haven't had a puppy since 1974 - Norwegian Elkhound - but at the same time I've been lucky enough to have wonderful dogs. Why? Because all I wanted was a dog to bond with. A dog that was happy that brought me joy being so. I honestly took a look at this problem for a couple of hours prior to posting this and came away knowing that 2 of my rescues were strays, 2 of my rescues were owner surrenders, and 1 was a puppy mill rescue. That tells me the problem might not be breeders so much as owners. 80% of my loving pack were in rescue due negligence and lack of commitment by humans. Until humans take on the mantle of responsibility for their pets there will always be rescues, ethical breeders, byb's, and puppy mills. WE need to make the difference in their lives.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Eclipse said:


> I saw this posted on a local rescue group's page. I stared at it for a couple seconds and I knew what point they were trying to get across, but I didn't understand how the average dog owner would be able to tell which Golden was the better bred one. Or how these pictures would effectively get their message across. I'm not well-versed in confirmation, and some pet owners might not be either, so it might confuse the target audience.
> 
> They way they used the pictures seemed like a weird way to prove their point, but maybe that's just me? I thought some other people in this thread might like to see it.


I think the graphic is an interesting idea in terms of highlighting what a "correct" golden looks like. As I look at it, I see an incorrect topline, poor angulation and back legs that are much too tall for the front (i believe those 3 things are inter-related). I imagine these issues may create a great deal of difficulty in movement for the dog. I wonder if the "average" person might look at this and have questions that would prompt them to become more knowledgable about the breed (a good thing, I think!). I also believe that "correct" conformation is only one part of what I would consider "good" breeding.
As I am continuing to think about this thread and the many good points that have been raised, the other thing that comes to mind for me is that the most "reputable" (by MY definition) breeders I have known always ask a potential buyer whether they have considered rescue and/or adoption of an older Golden in need of a new home. In one instance, the breeder was working with a former puppy buyer to help place an older dog who needed a home as the owner was dealing with their own health challenges.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

The one on the right looks like a hot mess.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I see both sides, I have had a golden from a byb, she had hip problems at 6 months old, many from this litter also had hip problems, I loved her a lot, would not change getting her,she died of bone cancer at 9 years old,kooper came from a hobby breader,he was 12 last month, my other two spencer,and spirit came from a good breeder,that did all clearences,and Cambridge came from one breeder that did them.They all deserve loving homes,what ever the case may be.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> Is it about common sense? I don't know. Common sense tells us a lot of false information. But what does common sense say about a choice between a BYB breeding their two family dogs together versus a breeder breeding their champions with all the clearances? I guess it depends on how much information you have. If you knew that the COI of the BYB litter was 4%, while the litter from the champions was 30%, would that affect what "common sense" tells you? What if you lack that information, even though the COIs still are what they are? I'm not always a big believer in common sense. It will lead you to fall right off the edge of the earth!


Dana....your comment makes no since, let alone any common since! The whole point is you either educate yourself about choices you make in life or you go blindly through life! I get it, to each his/her own.

I think you just want to create a discussion here, but you really have nothing to say, other then many people make bad decisions, educated or not, on getting a new dog, which is just a statement of reality. It is not a statement of a better way or a new discovery! Some of these people get lucky, many do not as far as the life span and overall health of the dog. This also is just a fact!

Enough said!:yuck:


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I think everyone should just do the very best the can, either as a puppy buyer purchasing a puppy or as a breeder. If we all do the best that we can then we should have no regrets.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Cpc1972 said:


> The one on the right looks like a hot mess.



Could you explain your thoughts here? What about the dog on the right constitutes a "hot mess?" And what do you think of the dog on the left?

Julie and the boys


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldlover68 said:


> Dana....your comment makes no since, let alone any common since! The whole point is you either educate yourself about choices you make in life or you go blindly through life! I get it, to each his/her own.
> 
> I think you just want to create a discussion here, but you really have nothing to say, other then many people make bad decisions, educated or not, on getting a new dog, which is just a statement of reality. It is not a statement of a better way or a new discovery! Some of these people get lucky, many do not as far as the life span and overall health of the dog. This also is just a fact!
> 
> Enough said!:yuck:


I think I do make sense, though perhaps I'm not saying it well. Let me try it this way...

Assume two breeders: Breeder #1 and Breeder #2.

Breeder #1 is a BYB, who breeds her pet dogs without clearances.
Breeder #2 is a respected hobby breeder who breeds champion dogs that have all their clearances going back several generations.

If this is all the information we have, "common sense" tells us that Breeder #2 is by far the better choice. Right?

But we don't know all the information. By way of one example, every litter born has a Coefficient of Inbreeding ("COI"), which measures how inbred that litter is. Stated most simply, the higher the COI number, the bigger the risk for a puppy to be stricken with genetic disease.

Now, unbeknownst to us, the litter from Breeder #1 has a COI of 4.0%. That's a pretty low number and indicates good genetic diversity. There is no inbreeding in this litter. But now we find out that Breeder #2 -- the one with all the clearances -- has a litter with a COI of 30.1%. That means that this litter shares close ancestors. It is inbred. At this level it's like breeding half-siblings together. Some ancestor has a gigantic influence on this litter, and the chances of a puppy getting two copies of that dog's genes is very high, which makes for a much higher risk that the puppies will express hidden genetic disease.

So now, with this information in hand, which is the less risky litter to purchase from? It's not so easy now, is it? "Common sense" doesn't help us choose between these two litters. Indeed, the BYB litter may very well be the safer choice, even without any clearances behind it, because the information we do know about litter #2 carries potentially greater health risks for the puppies than the information we don't know about litter #1.

My point being that the "common sense" choice of going with the litter with clearances might actually be the far more dangerous choice, depending on what other information exists that we don't know. It's all about what we don't know. "Common sense" tells us that the world is flat, but with more information we know that's wrong. "Common sense" also tells us that it's always safer to buy a puppy from a litter with clearances, but with more information we could very well discover that the litter with clearances is by far the more dangerous choice. Thus, the unknowns in any puppy choice we make constitute risk. We know that lack of clearances is a risk. But there is other information out there -- COI is just one obvious thing I used for illustration purposes, but there are a thousand other things -- which we may not even know that we don't know, and which might constitute far greater risk to the health of the puppy we might choose than lack of a hip clearance. There are far more horrible things than hip dysplasia that dogs can suffer from.

There is a convention here that says that it is _always better_ to buy a puppy from a litter with clearances than without. But I'll tell you that, depending on the dogs, if I have to choose between two litters, and one litter has a COI of 30.1% and the other litter has no clearances, I'm probably going with the litter without clearances but with the 4% COI. I'll take my chances with hip dysplasia long before I'll take the chance on genetic diseases such as epilepsy, hemolitic anemia, muscular distrophy, megaesophagus and cricopharyngeal dysfunction.

I hope that makes sense to you, now.

As for your comment that I have nothing to say except to criticize people for making bad decisions, I hope that the above explanation changes your mind on that. I've been trying to have a substantive discussion free of condemnation of anyone. Indeed, I've been going out of my way to not condemn BYBs, who are the staple punching bags on this board. I'm trying to get us to _think_ about and to _question_ our conventions and what we think we know. If that comes off as me not having anything to say except to criticize people, then I'm bewildered and I apologize.


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## GoldenSkies (Feb 27, 2014)

kfayard said:


> I think everyone should just do the very best the can, either as a puppy buyer purchasing a puppy or as a breeder. If we all do the best that we can then we should have no regrets.


I completely agree with this. I think it is really important to educate yourself before buying a puppy and it should not be an impulsive decision because it is a commitment. I think you don't have to know anyone from the "dog world" in order to find a good breeder. Well at least not where I live, we have lists of breeders that are well recognized and are accessible by anyone (online). But I also think if you did get a dog from a BYB or a pet store then so be it, as long as you make the commitment to that dog and you do the best you can. I agree that we should not support these type of breeders, but whether or not you support them that puppy you bought from them would've still been alive at that point so your job really is just to do your best at providing them with a great life because a lot of the time they might've not had a great childhood. I agree that many of these puppies may actually be exactly what you were looking for in a Golden. A dog certainly does not have to be pure bred to be a good dog. I think every dog has the potential to be a good dog as long as we care for it and once again do OUR BEST to provide the best life we can for it.

In my situation, I did a lot of research, I was not involved in the dog community but I called everyone I could to try my best to educate myself on good breeders around me, I learned from scratch what all these clearances meant and why they were so important. I also learned that there are so many people out there who want to help educate others on this stuff. Including people on these forums. I just moved out of my parents’ house and was working a minimal wage job but I put aside all the money I could for my future dog, I couldn't afford it and it would've been cheaper and easier to get a dog from a BYB but I waited it out instead and saved up the money. It wasn't easy waiting and it wasn't easy not being able to get the puppy I wanted at first because there were only three born and I was not high up on the list. Then when I got on the waiting list with my breeder I really realized it was all worth it. I got to experience Winchester's life from day one, she sent me photos and I got to visit the puppies every week, on top of that I know that at any point if anything happens I can call her and she will be there for me to support me and that also goes for our vet because she delivered the babies and has also been there since day one. So really for me the biggest upside of buying from a really great breeder was that I knew absolutely everything, no infromation was hidden from me. My breeder truly cares about my dog as much as I care about him. And I think no matter what the dog looks like, or where it came from it deserves to have a strong support system. We may not want to support bad breeders but we should still do our best to support the dogs. My only wish is that people would do their best to commit to whatever decision they make.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dana - with a rare breed, you might unfortunately be stuck making one of two choices that are both bad. 

With a popular breed like golden retrievers - there's a lot of good breeders out there so an average backyard breeder is never actually a valid choice. Unless of course there are other reasons why you can't purchase from those good breeders.

Fixed the picture btw.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora said:


> Dana - with a rare breed, you might unfortunately be stuck making one of two choices that are both bad.
> 
> With a popular breed like golden retrievers - there's a lot of good breeders out there so an average backyard breeder is never actually a valid choice. Unless of course there are other reasons why you can't purchase from those good breeders.


I know that. But I'm trying to make a point about risk and unknowns versus our conventions. I make the point by simplifying it down to a digestible bite in my hypothetical. Obviously, no one is forced to choose between a BYB with no clearances and a litter with a 30.1% COI. But how else am I to illustrate the point?

I'm also not sure that I agree that there are always good choices. The demand for Golden Retrievers FAR OUTNUMBERS the availability of well-bred puppies. If all puppy buyers suddenly decided to buy only from well-bred litters, there wouldn't be anywhere near enough puppies to go around. I'd guess that 95% of people would not be able to buy a puppy. What are those people to do? If they want a Golden, they have to start making compromised choices, and it may well be that the right BYB is a decent choice, even without the core clearances (though that's assuming that you can find enough information to know what is a good choice and a bad choice, which may not be possible in many instances). 

This supply issue is one reason why I'd like to see proper breeders breeding many more litters, and not just breeding to get something they want to keep. My feeling is that it improves the breed to have more well-bred puppies available to pet homes. And I think that given a _real_ opportunity (and easy access) to purchasing a well-bred puppy over a BYB puppy, most buyers would make the right choice, and the market would significantly shrink for BYBs, mill puppies and pet shop puppies. But I think most puppy buyers are not willing to wait for a year on a waiting list only to find that the breeding didn't take or that there weren't enough puppies and they have to go without. If well-bred puppies were reasonably available, I think most people would choose that over a BYB. But right now, demand far, far exceeds the supply.

P.S. I approve of your picture fixing.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Megora said:


> Dana - with a rare breed, you might unfortunately be stuck making one of two choices that are both bad.
> 
> With a popular breed like golden retrievers - there's a lot of good breeders out there so an average backyard breeder is never actually a valid choice. Unless of course there are other reasons why you can't purchase from those good breeders.
> 
> Fixed the picture btw.


RE: pic set up. WE'LL PLAYED!:


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

DanaRuns said:


> I think I do make sense, though perhaps I'm not saying it well. Let me try it this way...
> 
> Assume two breeders: Breeder #1 and Breeder #2.
> 
> ...


I think you make a really good point here on the COI. I'm actually convinced that the reason why many BYB dogs (ours included) lived such long lives is because they have such a low COI. When I was looking for my puppy, I found tons of pedigrees from very reputable breeders that were breeding to dogs with very high COIs (25-30% throughout) and it definitely seemed to be linked to earlier deaths.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

DanaRuns said:


> This supply issue is one reason why I'd like to see proper breeders breeding many more litters, and not just breeding to get something they want to keep. My feeling is that it improves the breed to have more well-bred puppies available to pet homes. And I think that given a _real_ opportunity (and easy access) to purchasing a well-bred puppy over a BYB puppy, most buyers would make the right choice, and the market would significantly shrink for BYBs, mill puppies and pet shop puppies. But I think most puppy buyers are not willing to wait for a year on a waiting list only to find that the breeding didn't take or that there weren't enough puppies and they have to go without. If well-bred puppies were reasonably available, I think most people would choose that over a BYB. But right now, demand far, far exceeds the supply.



Agreed.

And why is that backyard breeders don't typically get the clearances? Lack of knowledge? Expense? And if really good breeders bred more litters, it seems like the cost could potentially go down and make quality puppies more readily available and accessible.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

My almost 10 year old Brooks is a product of a BYB. In fact, about a year or so ago, I went online to try to find out about his parents, and saw that the breeder had started breeding Brooks' dad (who is a mirror image of Brooks) to create GOLDENDOODLES 
Looks
I am stopped all the time by people who want to tell me that Brooks is the best looking Golden they have ever seen (and my vet said the same). 
Size
He is absolutely spot on for breed standard for a male golden
Disposition
Absolutely the best natured dog imaginable
Retrieving 
Oops, he fails here…..he runs for a stick or ball and may bring it back but probably won't.
Health
No hip or other joint troubles. No seizures, no eye problems, no OCD, no anxiety/fear or aggression issues. No cancer. Brooks developed low thyroid around age 4 or 5. A couple of years ago he developed idiopathic swallowing when he lies down at night.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> I'm also not sure that I agree that there are always good choices. The demand for Golden Retrievers FAR OUTNUMBERS the availability of well-bred puppies. If all puppy buyers suddenly decided to buy only from well-bred litters, there wouldn't be anywhere near enough puppies to go around. (snip) This supply issue is one reason why I'd like to see proper breeders breeding many more litters, and not just breeding to get something they want to keep. My feeling is that it improves the breed to have more well-bred puppies available to pet homes.


All due respect, I think that you still have the difference between a popular breed and a rare breed. With a popular breed like golden retrievers, you have high volume breeders who are still fairly legit and responsible. 

My Jacks came from the high volume kind of breeder (meaning somebody who has/had 3-9 or more litters a year). That was the case with them not just breeding their own stuff generation after generation, but bringing in puppies from outside breeders and breeding to outside studs as well. They also did full clearances (with very little exception) and followed up with support for the new owners. The breeder also paid a lot of attention to temperament and trainability with these dogs - as well as handling and socialization. They were the ones who assured me that my puppy would be potty trained before coming home, and I was stunned when Jacks was going to the door and sitting to go outside for potty within a couple hours of being home with us. 

*Note, there was lower demand for puppies between 2008 and 2014, so I know this breeder went from 8-9 litters a year to only 3-4 litters. 

That is one example. 

Other example is you have ten million small breeders out there who quietly have 1-3 litters a year and are doing a good job of it (full clearances, etc), even though they are not out there showing and competing. 

I saw a golden puppy from one of these breeders last year... very nice puppy. And basically she was 6 months old when she started picking up her rally titles. I think she has a CD now. Not a lot of flair or show to this dog, but very quiet and steady. I was impressed on the obedience front, but really this pup was purchased to be a pet and was in every way a great pet.

You don't have to focus only on the biggest names or top-of-the-line breeders if you primarily want a pet. A lot of people out there are not going to be able to purchase from some of the big show breeders I can think of... and I don't think they should feel like they have to in order to have a perfect healthy pet. 

The biggest difference between some people and others is what their goals are. If you have specific goals that go well beyond having a dog around the house, then you have to be specific when looking for a puppy. When it comes to looking for a pet - I think you should reasonably expect -

1. It should look like a golden retriever. Meaning the breeder has been putting a lot of effort into producing nice looking dogs who have a standard/regular look. And for that matter, it should have the proper temperament.

2. You should see every effort made to breed healthy dogs. Meaning there should final clearances on both parents and behind them for at least 3 (preferably 5) generations. People should not breeding dogs left and right to whatever. They should be fairly selective. And health doesn't just mean the breeding dog not having to go to the vet or not limping. 

3. I added this option after giving it more thought. You should expect to be able to register your puppy in the AKC. Both parents should have full registration. 

^^^ And for everyone who quibbles about the little guy not being able to afford getting clearances on a dog, this is what it cost me last year for Bertie:

Hips/Elbows (referred vet) - $200 
Eyes (specialist) - $45
Heart (specialist) - $35

That's it. Cost me less than $300.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora, without quoting your whole last post, I absolutely agree with it.

Some of what I write is because the situation is so complex that we have to use some generalizations or shorthand in order to even have a discussion, or there would be so many qualifications, exclusions and "buts" to every statement we'd never be able to actually make a point. I agree with and adopt everything you just said.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Megora said:


> ^^^ And for everyone who quibbles about the little guy not being able to afford getting clearances on a dog, this is what it cost me last year for Bertie:
> 
> Hips/Elbows (referred vet) - $200
> Eyes (specialist) - $45
> ...


This is why I don't understand the lack of clearances...it's not that expensive and even if you're selling puppies for far less than the cost of the average show puppy ($2000), if you have one litter you more than make up the cost of the clearances. I'm sure with some it's a lack of knowledge. I also question if for some it's the fear of not passing.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Christen113 said:


> And why is that backyard breeders don't typically get the clearances? Lack of knowledge? Expense?


I don't think anyone knows the answer to this, and as Megora pointed out, there are some BYBs who do get clearances. My guess, based upon the single BYBer I know on Facebook, is that they simply don't see themselves as part of the same world that requires clearances, certifications, competitions and evaluations. I think they see that as some distant, elite club to which they do not belong, nor do they even want to. They breed pets; those pets seem healthy and the families happy; there's no indication that the puppies they breed are sick; so why try to fix a problem that doesn't exist? After all, they are not highfalutin breeders trying to create champions and superdogs, they just share the love they have for their dogs with others. And their dogs are cute, sweet and lovable, so what more is needed? They are unconcerned with the breed standard, so they likewise are unconcerned with the GRCA Code of Ethics. That's for fancy people, not regular folks like them. And besides, that's expensive and would mean they would have to charge more for their puppies, and they don't want to do that.

Or that's my guess, anyway.



> And if really good breeders bred more litters, it seems like the cost could potentially go down and make quality puppies more readily available and accessible.


Possibly! I hope so. As supply increases, prices usually fall. But good breeders spend a lot of money on litters that BYBs don't. Stud fees, hormone checks, artificial insemination, vet tests, ultrasound, x-rays, c-sections, whelping boxes, adventure boxes for the puppies, vet exams, litter registration, microchipping, puppy packs, and all the other things that good breeders spend money on for each and every litter increases the costs over BYBs, no matter how many puppies they actually make. So, maybe prices would come down, but probably never to the BYB level, where they toss two dogs into the back yard and let the dam whelp naturally in a cardboard box with a few towels in it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Heh here's a "But" - I was actually referring to really small hobby breeders as opposed to backyard breeders (derogatory term imo which applies to people who make no effort to educate themselves about the breed, breed health, and future of what they breed). As I said, I would never suggest anyone purchase from a backyard breeder.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

DanaRuns said:


> I don't think anyone knows the answer to this, and as Megora pointed out, there are some BYBs who do get clearances. My guess, based upon the single BYBer I know on Facebook, is that they simply don't see themselves as part of the same world that requires clearances, certifications, competitions and evaluations. I think they see that as some distant, elite club to which they do not belong, nor do they even want to. They breed pets; those pets seem healthy and the families happy; there's no indication that the puppies they breed are sick; so why try to fix a problem that doesn't exist? After all, they are not highfalutin breeders trying to create champions and superdogs, they just share the love they have for their dogs with others. And their dogs are cute, sweet and lovable, so what more is needed? They are unconcerned with the breed standard, so they likewise are unconcerned with the GRCA Code of Ethics. That's for fancy people, not regular folks like them. And besides, that's expensive and would mean they would have to charge more for their puppies, and they don't want to do that.
> 
> Or that's my guess, anyway.
> 
> ...



I think you're right about the attitudes-which is really too bad. 

And you're right on the costs- I guess I was thinking more in terms of those that own a quality pairing worth breeding to eliminate a lot of the extra hormone checks, artificial insemination, etc. that add up so quickly. I'll have to ask my breeder sometime what she actually nets on a litter. I've seen general numbers and I know it isn't much...and even less if you end up with a singleton. And unfortunately if that number remains so high, a lot of people simply aren't going to be willing or able to spend that on "just" a pet.

I decided a long time ago that I was going to have high quality goldens next (and one to show) and when I got married, I insisted on keeping my "golden retriever fund" separate from everything we combined so the cost wouldn't be an issue  What I didn't realize at the time was how hard it would be for me to find a dog that checked all of my boxes, with health and longevity, being at the top.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> Heh here's a "But" - I was actually referring to really small hobby breeders as opposed to backyard breeders (derogatory term imo which applies to people who make no effort to educate themselves about the breed, breed health, and future of what they breed). *As I said, I would never suggest anyone purchase from a backyard breeder.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I have no qualms at all about it. When people have to deal with the elite arrogance that comes from majority of the "reputable breeders", the no response back, the "sorry decided to keep the puppy and you just have to wait longer". I would never tell anyone to allow themselves to be treated like that. If people want to reduce themselves to that kind of treatment it is their choice. It is not mine, it will never be and I will never tell people to reduce themselves to it. To me, titles do not gain respect and reputation, character does.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> I have no qualms at all about it. When people have to deal with the elite arrogance that comes from majority of the "reputable breeders", the no response back, the "sorry decided to keep the puppy and you just have to wait longer". I would never tell anyone to allow themselves to be treated like that. If people want to reduce themselves to that kind of treatment it is their choice. It is not mine, it will never be and I will never tell people to reduce themselves to it. To me, titles do not gain respect and reputation, character does.


Claudia - I think you are not that far off from the same perspective that a lot of people (including myself) have when it comes to various breeders out there who are not "people persons". 

There's one breeder here in MI who I will probably nod and say - yeah, she's good if people ask about her. But if somebody is looking for puppies, I don't immediately refer to her because my impression of her 8 years ago was somebody who is bat-explicative crazy. And reading what she says online - it's clear she's still really abrasive and claws scraping glass by nature. 

I set up with her at a December show and found she was completely different in person (she and her daughter were actually really nice). And that was probably because we were set up next to her and she could see her friends were my friends. There's been prior shows where I stopped to chat with her husband (who is nice) or somebody she was with and had her looking right through me and not saying a word. 

She's also one of those breeders who says her lines are perfect and so on, but I know dogs from her who have allergy issues, or die early from cancer etc. 

I don't really think that all people within the breed are like her. In fact I know that there's a lot in the breed (local people to me anyway) where you have people only too happy to sit down and reasonably talk to puppy buyers. It really depends on who you contact.... also some people are better on the phone than emails.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> I don't think anyone knows the answer to this, and as Megora pointed out, there are some BYBs who do get clearances. My guess, based upon the single BYBer I know on Facebook, is that they simply don't see themselves as part of the same world that requires clearances, certifications, competitions and evaluations. I think they see that as some distant, elite club to which they do not belong, nor do they even want to. They breed pets; those pets seem healthy and the families happy; there's no indication that the puppies they breed are sick; so why try to fix a problem that doesn't exist? After all, they are not highfalutin breeders trying to create champions and superdogs, they just share the love they have for their dogs with others. And their dogs are cute, sweet and lovable, so what more is needed? They are unconcerned with the breed standard, so they likewise are unconcerned with the GRCA Code of Ethics. That's for fancy people, not regular folks like them. And besides, that's expensive and would mean they would have to charge more for their puppies, and they don't want to do that.
> 
> Or that's my guess, anyway.


This is what I was saying - general population of puppy buyers has no clue about clearances, etc.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I have no qualms at all about it. When people have to deal with the elite arrogance that comes from majority of the "reputable breeders", the no response back, the "sorry decided to keep the puppy and you just have to wait longer". I would never tell anyone to allow themselves to be treated like that. If people want to reduce themselves to that kind of treatment it is their choice. It is not mine, it will never be and I will never tell people to reduce themselves to it. To me, titles do not gain respect and reputation, character does.[/QUOTE]

I see this arrogance on a regular basis, not just from breeders but from those who have dogs from reputable breeders. I get the distinct impression that some of those people feel the 'need' and have the right to approve or condemn the choices, and the dogs of those of us who choose the back yard breeder or the rescued dog, as if we have 'settled' for 'second best' or god forbid 'used' or 'damaged'. 
My dogs, six of them, are all back yard breeder dogs, though three of them are rescues, for all I know they could have come from a 'reputable breeder'. They have all the attributes of a 'well bred' dog, no behavior issues that can be attributed to 'poor breeding', no health issues, no physical problems at all, easy to teach, great temperaments, loving, 'normal' family dogs -what more could I want?


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

Charliethree said:


> I have no qualms at all about it. When people have to deal with the elite arrogance that comes from majority of the "reputable breeders", the no response back, the "sorry decided to keep the puppy and you just have to wait longer". I would never tell anyone to allow themselves to be treated like that. If people want to reduce themselves to that kind of treatment it is their choice. It is not mine, it will never be and I will never tell people to reduce themselves to it. To me, titles do not gain respect and reputation, character does.


I see this arrogance on a regular basis, not just from breeders but from those who have dogs from reputable breeders. I get the distinct impression that some of those people feel the 'need' and have the right to approve or condemn the choices, and the dogs of those of us who choose the back yard breeder or the rescued dog, as if we have 'settled' for 'second best' or god forbid 'used' or 'damaged'. 
My dogs, six of them, are all back yard breeder dogs, though three of them are rescues, for all I know they could have come from a 'reputable breeder'. They have all the attributes of a 'well bred' dog, no behavior issues that can be attributed to 'poor breeding', no health issues, no physical problems at all, easy to teach, great temperaments, loving, 'normal' family dogs -what more could I want?[/QUOTE]
^Best post in this thread^
Great job C3!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Charliethree said:


> I get the distinct impression that some of those people feel the 'need' and have the right to approve or condemn the choices, and the dogs of those of us who choose the back yard breeder or the rescued dog, as if we have 'settled' for 'second best' or god forbid 'used' or 'damaged'.


Seriously and honestly, this has been threaded-to-death already but here we go again. I don't think anyone has ever done that.... the opposite is actually quite true - and openly so from billboards to bumper stickers to people snapping in the faces of others who choose to purchase a purebred golden retriever from a very good breeder as opposed adopting from a rescue. 

I don't think very many people really care where people get their dogs. These conversations only come up when you have people parading their backyard bred dogs and rescues dogs out and promoting them as exactly the same as those who came with clearances and carefully selected pedigrees. Ages ago when we had our first dog (backyard bred boy who I still think was gorgeous) - I could see no difference between him and any other goldens. And follows through that most people not really involved with the breed don't see much difference anyway. I'm still very "new" to all this myself and I can see some noted differences. It's stuff I would not point out when looking at somebody's pet. Unless somebody is asking for an opinion on a dog, I can't imagine being so rude as to offer one. You instead look for good things and focus on those and ignore any things you don't like. And that is and should be the rule. If somebody thinks a dog comes from a cwappy breeder, that's personal opinion - at least until the point that somebody is trying to promote that cwappy breeder. Which case, for integrity and decency's sake - people have the choice to either demur or avoid commenting altogether.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> Seriously and honestly, this has been threaded-to-death already but here we go again. I don't think anyone has ever done that.... the opposite is actually quite true - and openly so from billboards to bumper stickers to people snapping in the faces of others who choose to purchase a purebred golden retriever from a very good breeder as opposed adopting from a rescue.
> 
> I don't think very many people really care where people get their dogs. These conversations only come up when you have *people parading their backyard bred dogs* and rescues dogs out and promoting them as exactly the same as those who came with clearances and carefully selected pedigrees. Ages ago when we had our first dog (backyard bred boy who I still think was gorgeous) - I could see no difference between him and any other goldens. *And follows through that most people not really involved with the breed don't see much difference anyway.* I'm still very "new" to all this myself and I can see some noted differences. It's stuff I would not point out when looking at somebody's pet. Unless somebody is asking for an opinion on a dog, I can't imagine being so rude as to offer one. You instead look for good things and focus on those and ignore any things you don't like. And that is and should be the rule. If somebody thinks a dog comes from a cwappy breeder, that's personal opinion - at least until the point that somebody is trying to promote that cwappy breeder. Which case, for integrity and decency's sake - people have the choice to either demur or avoid commenting altogether.



Parading?????? So I guess the accomplishments of the BYB dogs cannot be "paraded" because..... Really, Kate this post just like the one a month ago when the term "superior product" was introduced to this forum reeks elitism. 

Frankly there are many BYB dogs that I would take over 95% of the show dogs. And there are many well bred dogs that I would take over a BYB dog.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I just want to add that I think when we talk about this, it is hard to leave our own dogs out of the discussion and people are pretty passionate about thier dogs.

If I were to ask if you think your dog is the best Golden, I would expect a resounding, "you bet" from most owners. That is as it should be. I know I have two of the best Goldens ever and was fortunate enough to own the best Min Pin to ever exist. Those thought have nothing to do with were they came from. 2 Well-bred and one BYB for what it is worth.

The perceived slights I think for the most part are just that. Though, I know people who are down right offended I buy dogs from breeders going so far as to tell me I killed dogs sitting in shelters. I have heard negative comments specifically about pets that were rescued or BYB. Those scenarios of direct insult are unacceptable.

I do feel though that my decision to buy from a reputable breeder is about me and my dogs. Anyone's decision to rescue is about them and their dogs. My purchase is not a condemnation of rescues. Your rescue, (I hope) is not a condemnation of my purpose bred dog. 
My pride in my dogs attributes are not a slight against other dogs. Your pride in your dog regardless of its origin is not a slight on my dog.

This become slights when we make direct statements. 

If you have not been involved in rescue, I incourage you to do so. If you have never talked to a BYB (especially if you can educate) I encourge you to do so, if you have never talked to a reputable breeder I encourage you to do so, if you have never been to a dog show I encourage you to do so, if you have never watch obeidence, I encourge you to do so, if you have never watched a hunt test in encourage you to do so. The more you experiance, the better informed you will be and you may find your opinions and perceptions shift.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Aside from better odds of a healthy and enjoyable dog, for me the choice of breeder is also based on who I want to give my hard earned money to. I don't want to support greeders making a living off cranking out dogs and doing nothing with them.


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