# White goldens



## sadiegirl

I've been seeing a lot of white goldens at the shows (ukc, akc would never champion them). I can't understand why these dogs are winning? the coat color doesn't meet the standard. They all seem very "leggy" too. I'm not saying they're not great pets, but they should not be winning in the conformation ring encouraging people to breed them even more. JMO.


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## BeauShel

Are you sure they are not a light blond. There is really not a white golden out there. Do you have pictures of the goldens from the shows? I would be interested in seeing what they look like.


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## K9-Design

Then ask the judges.


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## kwhit

Wow...your disdain of the lighter colored Goldens really comes through in your post. :no: 

I happen to love the color. But then again, I guess I'm biased...


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## diana_D

There is no white Golden, they are lighter in colour, as the ORIGINAL standard states: 

_Colour
Any shade of gold or *cream*, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible._ Retriever (Golden) Breed Standard - The Kennel Club

You should also know that FCI (more than 80 countries are members) follows this original standard, as it is normal. The country of origin is UK (Scotland IS part of UK) and I find it normal that the country of origin to issue the standard. 

The only Kennel Club that changed this is AKC. 

Colour is not the only difference as many people believe, the type is so different that sometimes we wonder if it's not an entirely different breed.


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## Megora

> Do you have pictures of the goldens from the shows? I would be interested in seeing what they look like.


Me too. 

And were these AKC shows? <- Only because the ones I see at AKC shows DO look like proper goldens. 

I understand that "cream" can look like white but not be white if you compare with white, but when you see a "cream" colored golden someplace where there are only goldens, you do think you are looking at a different breed or possibly a golden/setter mix. :uhoh: As happened when I went to a show a couple months ago and somebody was wandering around showing off his "english cream" golden. :uhoh: The dog had a different body structure than the compact goldens that were showing there. His coat was longer and wavier, and it did look white. 

I can't imagine a dog like that winning in a show ring...


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## Sunkota

AKC Standard -"Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable." I like Goldens of all shades. The first litter I had I bred to Footprint of Yeo, an English import. 

I do agree with the AKC (GRCA) standard - it is a Goldnen - not so white you have to look very closely to see any color, or so dark it looks Irish Setter red or Field Spaniel brown.

I think the issue these days is some "breeders" that are selling "English Creme Goldens" for very high prices claiming they are superior in health and temperament with no proof of either. Sometimes the have poor clearance backgrounds and don't physically look like a Golden. English (or European) imports have many of the same health problems we see in the US and sometimes bring their own health issues the US does not have.


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## diana_D

OptiGen PRA testing for Golden Retrievers


As of mid-summer 2008, based on the tests we’ve completed at OptiGen, here is a summary of we know about PRA in the golden retriever:

* 1% are (genetically) AFFECTED with prcd-PRA
* 26% are CARRIERS of prcd-PRA
* 73% are NORMAL for prcd-PRA
* All of the prcd- AFFECTED (genetically) dogs are from either the USA or Canada
* 82% of the CARRIERS are from the USA & Canada. The remaining 18% are from multiple countries in Europe and the UK

-------------------------------
Need I mention Optigen is a US based company? In case you doubt their statistics. 
----------------------------------------


I leave the data from UK to speak for itself. A score of 18 would count as FAIR and the number of Goldens tested are enough for serious data. 

Golden Retriever Breed Council


HD mean score for all tested Goldens is 18.

Golden Retriever: tested: 32,060 average score: 18

Furthermore, to doubt whether dogs TRUE to standard would not win in the ring anytime is absolutely ridiculous. And I don't want to start a debate on conformation. 

If you are fascinated by those long coats, they are WRONG! The coat structure is totally wrong and those dogs could never perform in the field. Goldens are, after all gundogs.


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## Megora

> Furthermore, to doubt whether dogs TRUE to standard would not win in the ring anytime is absolutely ridiculous. And I don't want to start a debate on conformation.


But it isn't a sure bet that a "golden" bred to KC standards would win in an AKC show... right? 

Pigmentary uveitis (I'm guessing PRA is the same?) came from a top producing golden out of New Jersey. So... yes, of course it is an issue to be concerned about when you purchase an American golden. And I wouldn't be too surprised if that sale point starts to show up on websites for "english creme" goldens - even though apparently most vets don't even know what pigmentary uveitis is.  

But the problem is that when you have breeders pitching "english cream" goldens and selling them for twice the price of an American golden, they are touting the overall health of these dogs. A new puppy buyer might be tricked into thinking that includes cancer, dysplasia, and other diseases and conditions that are common with the breed.


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## tippykayak

PU and PRA are different things, and PU didn't come from one dog.


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## Jax's Mom

I love all colors, shades, whatever. No prejudices here!


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## Megora

tippykayak said:


> *PU and PRA are different things*, and PU didn't come from one dog.


Duh<: :doh: I think PU has been on my mind so much in the last two months that I immediately jumped to the conclusion that the optigen thing was referring to that. I didn't realize that goldens have retinal issues like collies do...

The thing about one golden came from the eye-vet I visited this past Monday. I had my Jacks in for his eye exam and asked a few questions about the "golden retriever uveitis" and how to spot early signs if they happen. I thought he said something about it starting with one top producing golden from out east. But I must have misunderstood him.


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## annef

The optigen test does not indicate the type of PRA found in Europe and Scandinavia (virtually no cases have been diagnosed in the UK for a number of years) A new DNA test will be available from late November and then we will know if our dogs carry PRA.
Are the UKC shows judged to the UK or US standard because if they are judged to the UK standard then cream would be permitted? The standard was altered in the 1930's to allow cream.

Annef (who has a range of colours from very dark working dogs to mid gold and cream show dogs and loves them all)


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## tippykayak

Megora said:


> Duh<: :doh: I think PU has been on my mind so much in the last two months that I immediately jumped to the conclusion that the optigen thing was referring to that. I didn't realize that goldens have retinal issues like collies do...
> 
> The thing about one golden came from the eye-vet I visited this past Monday. I had my Jacks in for his eye exam and asked a few questions about the "golden retriever uveitis" and how to spot early signs if they happen. I thought he said something about it starting with one top producing golden from out east. But I must have misunderstood him.


Some very influential Goldens have been diagnosed late in life, so that may be what the vet meant. I thought you were saying PU got its start with a single Golden, which I don't believe is the case.


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## Tahnee GR

tippykayak said:


> Some very influential Goldens have been diagnosed late in life, so that may be what the vet meant. I thought you were saying PU got its start with a single Golden, which I don't believe is the case.


LOL-I figured the vet was referring to the very well-known stud dog that a friend and I laughingly refer to as "the root of all evil!" Not because we believe this, but because this poor dog gets blamed for so many problems in the breed  It seems like almost a knee-jerk reaction for some people-oh, that goes back to [ insert "root of all evil" dog name here].


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## tippykayak

Tahnee GR said:


> LOL-I figured the vet was referring to the very well-known stud dog that a friend and I laughingly refer to as "the root of all evil!" Not because we believe this, but because this poor dog gets blamed for so many problems in the breed  It seems like almost a knee-jerk reaction for some people-oh, that goes back to [ insert "root of all evil" dog name here].


Is this Charlie you're talking about? I remember a thread where he was essentially blamed for cancer in Goldens.


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## Ljilly28

Sunkota said:


> AKC Standard -"Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable." I like Goldens of all shades. The first litter I had I bred to Footprint of Yeo, an English import.
> 
> I do agree with the AKC (GRCA) standard - it is a Goldnen - not so white you have to look very closely to see any color, or so dark it looks Irish Setter red or Field Spaniel brown.
> 
> I think the issue these days is some "breeders" that are selling "English Creme Goldens" for very high prices claiming they are superior in health and temperament with no proof of either. Sometimes the have poor clearance backgrounds and don't physically look like a Golden. English (or European) imports have many of the same health problems we see in the US and sometimes bring their own health issues the US does not have.


I agree with Sunkota. In the USA, an extremely pale dog that appears "white" sometimes indicates the fad/ trend of cream( it kills me when it is spelled creme with an accent) and is not proper for the show ring's standard. The term, "white golden" is a contradiction in terms. How about liver colored black lab or a gold dalmation with no spots? How would that affect the dog's breed type? It is a GOLDEN retriever. The redder goldens still have gleaming gold in their coats, usually. Lightest gold is gorgeous, but snow white is not a golden retriever. I hope all loving dogs, white through black, have wonderful homes and their color is no comment on how good they are as pets. It is just improper, imo, for a white dog to win in a golden retriever class or to be sold as a "rare" strain of golden retriever.


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## OrdinaryEllen

*a little upset OP*

My baby is very light, sometimes he looks cream colored and other times, depending on the lighting, he looks white.

I love Piper. He is a Golden Retriever and I somewhat resent your post.

He's a member of the "club" and color should not be an issue.

I hope my next Golden is a dark red one.


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## Ljilly28

OrdinaryEllen said:


> My baby is very light, sometimes he looks cream colored and other times, depending on the lighting, he looks white.
> 
> I love Piper. He is a Golden Retriever and I somewhat resent your post.
> 
> He's a member of the "club" and color should not be an issue.
> 
> I hope my next Golden is a dark red one.


The golden in your avatar looks light gold, not white!


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## foreveramber

this doesnt help at all, but ive always loved this photo


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## Tahnee GR

tippykayak said:


> Is this Charlie you're talking about? I remember a thread where he was essentially blamed for cancer in Goldens.


Yup, it's Charlie. I mean, really! Were there issues there? Well, when people take a dog and then line breed and inbreed on him over and over, I suspect a few problems might crop up, I don't care who the dog is.


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## tippykayak

Tahnee GR said:


> Yup, it's Charlie. I mean, really! Were there issues there? Well, when people take a dog and then line breed and inbreed on him over and over, I suspect a few problems might crop up, I don't care who the dog is.


Right, _all_ dogs carry undesirable genes, many of which are not expressed.


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## musicgirl

kwhit said:


> Wow...your disdain of the lighter colored Goldens really comes through in your post. :no:
> 
> I happen to love the color. But then again, I guess I'm biased...


i love the lighter colors also...

and these dogs dont necessarily win because of their color. judges look at a lot of aspects when picking a winner


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## sadiegirl

UKC-color may be any shade of GOLDEN...
AKC-rich, lustrous GOLDEN of various shades...
neither venues standard states anything about cream being okay. i was just trying to figure out why these dogs are being put up in the breed ring in ukc. reason being, the breeders are marketing these dogs as "rare english creams", asking alot of money for them and they don't meet the standard. not just by color, but a lot of other factors also. i just hate for people to be ripped off by purchasing these dogs. my problem with the ukc (and i've seen them put up at iabca shows also) putting these dogs up is that it encourages people to keep breeding this type. i think we should breed to the standard (the conformation ring is a breed ring) for the betterment of the breed. JMO.


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## Megora

musicgirl said:


> and these dogs dont necessarily win because of their color. judges look at a lot of aspects when picking a winner


Exactly. There are other differences between the KC goldens and AKC goldens. There is a different body structure - like (for example) the topline of the dogs when they are stacked properly. For conformation there should be a sloping line for goldens showing in the AKC. That's why I don't think you can take a KC golden and show it in the AKC - even when it was bred to KC standard. 

Not that I know anything about conformation.  

FWIW - I love all colors of golden too.


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## foreveramber

sadiegirl said:


> UKC-color may be any shade of GOLDEN...
> AKC-rich, lustrous GOLDEN of various shades...
> neither venues standard states anything about cream being okay. i was just trying to figure out why these dogs are being put up in the breed ring in ukc. reason being, the breeders are marketing these dogs as "rare english creams", asking alot of money for them and they don't meet the standard. not just by color, but a lot of other factors also. i just hate for people to be ripped off by purchasing these dogs. my problem with the ukc (and i've seen them put up at iabca shows also) putting these dogs up is that it encourages people to keep breeding this type. i think we should breed to the standard (the conformation ring is a breed ring) for the betterment of the breed. JMO.


well, i wouldnt go as far to say that people are being ripped off... they know theyre buying a so called 'rare english creme' and if that's what they want, then let them. as far as betterment of the breed, i dont know much about it but i think the color variations in goldens is a really cool thing. You dont have that much variation in many other breeds.


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## Oaklys Dad

I love that photo also and have it saved for easy access. I think I have had, at one time or another, the whole spectrum and to me they are all solid gold.



foreveramber said:


> this doesnt help at all, but ive always loved this photo


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## Tahnee GR

Megora said:


> Exactly. There are other differences between the KC goldens and AKC goldens. There is a different body structure - like (for example) the topline of the dogs when they are stacked properly. For conformation there should be a sloping line for goldens showing in the AKC. That's why I don't think you can take a KC golden and show it in the AKC - even when it was bred to KC standard.
> 
> Not that I know anything about conformation.
> 
> FWIW - I love all colors of golden too.


Actually, no-the last thing you want in an AKC golden is a sloping topline. Topline (the back) should be strong and level. A sloping topline often indicates a dog who has more rear than front. Honestly, grooming and color extremes aside, a good Golden is a good Golden.


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## Megora

Tahnee GR said:


> Actually, no-the last thing you want in an AKC golden is a sloping topline. Topline (the back) should be strong and level. A sloping topline often indicates a dog who has more rear than front. Honestly, grooming and color extremes aside, a good Golden is a good Golden.


By sloping topline, I meant like the golden in your avatar. I probably used the wrong term.... :uhoh:


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## Tahnee GR

Megora said:


> By sloping topline, I meant like the golden in your avatar. I probably used the wrong term.... :uhoh:


If you mean from the top of the head to the tail, that is not the topline. The topline is the back, from the withers to the tail. It should be straight, with a slight drop off at the croup. When I think of a sloping topline, I think of Irish Setters and German Shepherds (exaggerated but you get the picture).


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## Megora

Tahnee GR said:


> If you mean from the top of the head to the tail, that is not the topline. The topline is the back, from the withers to the tail. It should be straight, with a slight drop off at the croup. When I think of a sloping topline, I think of Irish Setters and German Shepherds (exaggerated but you get the picture).


*nods* I think I was just using terms that I've seen on breeder websites touting "english creme". One website that I looked at (just now while double-checking) used the german shepherd as an example of how we Americans have created an unstable and poorly structured animal far from what the breed originally was. Or something to that effect. 

If the goldens in the shows did have the sloping back and awkward looking rear leg movements that I've seen of some german shepherds (not all of them), I would totally agree that it's bad.  But obviously I think that comparision was OTT. 

Here's a link to one of the websites with the differences explained... 
The Golden Retriever History and Description


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## Tahnee GR

Oh, don't even get me started on Shepherds! Of course I haven't watched them in conformation in ages, so hopefully things have changed. I remember watching a ring of GSD's about 20 years ago and I was amazed at all the double handling going on, the temperaments on many of the dogs and the extreme outline of many of the dogs.

Of course, I have to say there was nothing like watching Jimmy Moses handle a Shepherd!

I love a nice Shepherd and if I were ever to get one, I hope I could find one from a nice dual pedigree, working and conformation.


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## Bender

tippykayak said:


> Right, _all_ dogs carry undesirable genes, many of which are not expressed.



Well, if we all got 'smart' and bred to poodles, we'd have perfectly healthy dogs.:doh::curtain::bowl:

Now going to hide to avoid all the golden dustbunnies being tossed my way.....:

Lana


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## Sunkota

I am not sure how PRA became a part of a discussion about white Goldens - but - the dogs tested in the USA are primarily field bred dogs, very few conformation dogs have been tested. If you look at the web site that has a list of tested dogs you will see just a handful of breed champions. The reason for this is because the problem cropped up in the field lines (not saying it isn't in conformation lines - it might be). If more dogs were tested in the US there is a good chance the percentages would change drastically.

Fortunately there is a genetic test for PRA and with the testing and careful breeding there will be 0% affected in the future!


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## OrdinaryEllen

*another pic*



Ljilly28 said:


> The golden in your avatar looks light gold, not white!


I have a tough time posting pics but here's a link to another photo: 


OrdinaryEllen's Images - Golden Retriever Photos

but I think, in the famous photo of the line of goldens and all of their colors, Piper would be either the one on the left or the second from the left in terms of color.


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## tippykayak

Bender said:


> Well, if we all got 'smart' and bred to poodles, we'd have perfectly healthy dogs.:doh::curtain::bowl:
> 
> Now going to hide to avoid all the golden dustbunnies being tossed my way.....:
> 
> Lana


It's actually nice to bring up that concept of mixing breeds at this point. One of the fallacies of breed mixing is that genetic problems are due to the small gene pools of breeds, and that by mixing breeds you're expanding the gene pool and that's automatically a good thing.

In reality, the lack of genetic variability in a breed is what gives a breeder the ability to reliably predict the phenotypic characteristics of the offspring. For example, we know there's a possibility for HD in Goldens, so by testing the breeding stock properly, we can dramatically cut down the likelihood that the offspring will develop HD.

If you mix breeds, you're pulling randomly from a much larger pool, so the variability will be much higher. A HD test, for example, could be less predictive of the offspring's hips. We see this principle most obviously in the coats that show up on Poodle/GR mixes. They can run the full gamut from a Poodle-like coat to a wiry, curly version of a Golden coat. You can also get coat types that really don't seem like either breed. By shaking up that larger pool of genes, you can active all kinds of things you'd never see in a Poodle or a Golden on top of everything you already would see in a Poodle or a Golden.

For coats, it's mostly an issue of look and convenience (though some Poodle mixes come out with totally unmanageable coats at constant risk for mats and hotspots, so even that becomes a health issue). But for hearts? Joints? Immune-mediated disorders? I shudder to think.

The thing that gets me about Poodle-mixing breeders is the elevated risk they take with each and every cross of producing puppies with serious health and temperament problems because they've blissfully traded away breed predictability, either out of ignorance or greed.

OK, I didn't meant to go OT on a rant there, but I kinda did.


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## Megora

She is very light, but looking at the bigger version of this picture, I can see the golden cream coloring down her back, on her ears, mixing in her mane, and in her feathering. <- if she's young, then that coloring might fill in a little more and become more obvious. 

We almost bought a puppy from a golden who had similar coloring. Only she was a regular AKC golden interbred with English lines (this was back in the 90's). So she looked more like my Danny in shape/features/coat, but had the uber light coloring. <- We opted to go with a different litter, but yeah, that was the closest we ever came to getting a white dog. 



> The thing that gets me about Poodle-mixing breeders is the elevated risk they take with each and every cross of producing puppies with serious health and temperament problems because they've blissfully traded away breed predictability, either out of ignorance or greed.


Tsk. Mixed breeds are always healthier than purebreds. Didn't you know that? :


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## AmbikaGR

tippykayak said:


> Is this Charlie you're talking about? I remember a thread where he was essentially blamed for cancer in Goldens.



There is very little this dog and his owner are not blamed for. It always amazes me.


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## AmbikaGR

Megora said:


> By sloping topline, I meant like the golden in your avatar. I probably used the wrong term.... :uhoh:



I think your are confusing grooming techniques with actual structure. It is quite normal in the UK to strip a Golden's neck and shoulder area to accentuate the dog's neck. In the US you never see this done and thus that is where I believe you see the "sloping" you are referring to.


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## Megora

AmbikaGR said:


> I think your are confusing grooming techniques with actual structure. It is quite normal in the UK to strip a Golden's neck and shoulder area to accentuate the dog's neck. In the US you never see this done and thus that is where I believe you see the "sloping" you are referring to.


 
Nope. I was using the same terms I've seen on breeder websites. <=- I double checked last night. 

So the link I included above has the following:




> AKC: Strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping backline, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted.
> 
> KC: Calls for level top line. Loin and legs strong and muscular, good second thighs, well bent stifles. Hocks well let down, straight when viewed from rear, neither turning in nor out. Amazingly these supposedly similar requirements give a different angulation in practice! This is very visible on these Champion pictures below. (the English champions shown are in our male’s pedigree). English Goldens have more level top line with legs more straight, American Golden Retrievers have slightly sloping top line with legs standing more out.
> 
> English-type Goldens are bigger-boned and shorter, with a more square head and or muzzle and are generally slightly heavier. The British Kennel Club calls for a level topline and straight hindquarters without the slight rear angulation found in American lines.


Keep in mind I'm a know-nothing when it comes to conformation. I'm curious and learning bits and pieces since signing up with GRF, but yeah. 

ETA - One possibility that occurred to me while posting the above is possibly that it isn't so much the grooming or even the structure of the golden, but the way the dogs are stacked. Maybe?


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## Bender

Totally agree. Honestly I have yet to meet a doodle with a temperment I liked, at most there's the ones that will tolerate a stranger but aren't as goofy/friendly as a golden.

Just not a poodle temperment fan...

Lana


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## Sultan's mother

Love that photo of the 9 goldens with fence with their backs to the photographer. Thanks for posting it - hadn't seen it before.


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## sadiegirl

tippykayak-thank you for calling them poodle mixes and not goldendoodles!



KEEP OUR GOLDENS PURE~DON'T DOODLE!


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## kwhit

Megora said:


> She is very light, but looking at the bigger version of this picture, I can see the golden cream coloring down her back, on her ears, mixing in her mane, and in her feathering. <- if she's young, then that coloring might fill in a little more and become more obvious.


This is the color change that happened to Chance. The first picture is his first night home at 1 year old. The second picture was taken last week, (6 yrs. old):

 



He definitely got darker on his ears, his chest and his tail.


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## puppydogs

Wow, these "white" ones are gorgeous!


-----
ffur.com


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## annef

The AKC asks for a slightly sloping croup, that is not the same as a sloping topline. The croup is the very end of the topline and it says slightly sloping whilst the British standard asks for a level topline. Annef


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## tippykayak

Bender said:


> Totally agree. Honestly I have yet to meet a doodle with a temperment I liked, at most there's the ones that will tolerate a stranger but aren't as goofy/friendly as a golden.
> 
> Just not a poodle temperment fan...
> 
> Lana


I've met a couple whose temperament I've liked. Because of the inconsistency, some come out very much like labs, and I love the silly, stable lab temperament. I've also met ones with the reserve you describe. Temperament is going to be a grab bag from both breeds, just like the other characteristics (with the possibility for elements that are in neither breed because of the nature of the outcrossing).

I've also met some, and this is the real shame, that were clearly bred out of unstable labs and neurotic poodles and got the worst of both. I have a friend with a dog I love very much but who is the poster child for not breeding poodle/lab mixes. She's neurotic, clumsy, and poorly structured. Her facial hair has to be trimmed constantly because she gets a yellow, discolored beard and the hair around her eyes is wiry and curves down into them. She has a totally unmanageable wire-like coat, and she has a heart murmur on top of all of it.

I love her to death, but she should not have been produced. Oh yeah, and she was exorbitantly expensive. My friend ended up with her after a neighbor ordered her from California, had her shipped to CT, and then wanted to give her up after a couple of weeks because the neighbor is allergic to dogs and the breeder promised her the dog would be "hypoallergenic!"


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## solinvictus

There is very little this dog and his owner are not blamed for. It always amazes me.

I think Charlie is marked because he is so well known. 
I wish we could see the longevity on many more dogs in the older pedigrees. Sunset Happy Duke only lived 8.5 years. If people are going to try to pin point why wouldn't they pin point to him? Duke of Rochester II only lived 7.5 years why don't people pin point any problems toward him? What did all the goldens that died young die of? Accidents? Inheritable diseases? Cancer? 
Charlie lived to about 12 years old, if there is a problem within those lines imo it came way before Charlie.


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## Selli-Belle

diana_D said:


> There is no white Golden, they are lighter in colour, as the ORIGINAL standard states:
> 
> _Colour
> Any shade of gold or *cream*, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible._ Retriever (Golden) Breed Standard - The Kennel Club
> 
> You should also know that FCI (more than 80 countries are members) follows this original standard, as it is normal. The country of origin is UK (Scotland IS part of UK) and I find it normal that the country of origin to issue the standard.
> 
> The only Kennel Club that changed this is AKC.
> 
> Colour is not the only difference as many people believe, the type is so different that sometimes we wonder if it's not an entirely different breed.


As Annef wrote, the cream was added to the KC standard after the AKC standard was written. I also have to disagree that the breed is so different. While a pure English dog may not be able to get their CH in the US, their offspring certainly can (take Camrose Betimmy). And the American National this year was judged by the owner of the Dewmist kennel.


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## Nel

This is such a touchy subject that we see get brought up all the time. American golden vs European golden etc etc. Bottom line, color of a golden retriever is a subjective thing. I believe as long as the golden hold's it's breed properties, characteristics, and personality (gentle, willing to learn, loyal etc etc) They are considered to be Goldens. 

Genetic and health problems are mostly due to careless breeding FROM the breeder, and is at no fault of the goldens. We the people hold more control over these dogs than the dogs themselves! Everywhere in the world there are people that are blinded by greed, and exploit their dogs for profit, this applies to ALL type dog breeders... not just only "Cream colored" goldens. Shy away from those that say "rare platinum blonds" "white angel goldens" those are obviously market scams. 

If you do the search, you can see just as much "american" goldens breeders trying to exploit their dogs. Assuming that all cream color breeders and dogs are trying to rip you off is slightly discriminating. Please try not to label, and be open minded. This is a wonderful dog community and just let everyone have their own opinions of their perfect breed. 

Why do we hold dog shows? They are not merely beauty pageants, or a fun hobby for the people. Isn't the purpose to judge your dogs so they should be eligible to produce desirable puppies? So the generations of these dogs would be healthy, clean and true to their nature? But we see Goldens in AKC with severe hip dysplasia. I personally think that we SHOULD make things a little bit more strict...but for the health wise of the dogs.


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## ragtym

Nel said:


> Bottom line, color of a golden retriever is a subjective thing. I believe as long as the golden hold's it's breed properties, characteristics, and personality (gentle, willing to learn, loyal etc etc) They are considered to be Goldens.


Those things that you describe can be attributed to any number of breeds. Part of what makes a Golden a Golden IS the color of the coat according to the American standard - "The golden-colored coat is the hallmark of this versatile breed, and can range from light to dark gold."

Coat color does not make a dog a good or bad Golden. It's the breeding for specific colors, very light (or very dark for that matter), that is the concern here.


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## tippykayak

Nel said:


> This is such a touchy subject that we see get brought up all the time. American golden vs European golden etc etc. Bottom line, color of a golden retriever is a subjective thing. I believe as long as the golden hold's it's breed properties, characteristics, and personality (gentle, willing to learn, loyal etc etc) They are considered to be Goldens.


I think the standard itself is important to adhere to. It's very wide in the range of colors it allows already, so going outside it (in any direction) doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Breeding directly for an extreme color makes even less sense, since there's so much more (and much more important stuff!) involved in a well bred dog.



Nel said:


> If you do the search, you can see just as much "american" goldens breeders trying to exploit their dogs. Assuming that all cream color breeders and dogs are trying to rip you off is slightly discriminating. Please try not to label, and be open minded. This is a wonderful dog community and just let everyone have their own opinions of their perfect breed.


I totally agree that there are lots of people making profits at the expense of dogs and doing it without special color breeding. And you're right that a "cream" breeder isn't necessarily an evil person trying to rip others off. However, the act of breeding for "cream" (or any other color) is, by definition, bad breeding. Breed for health, temperament, ability, and adherence to standard. Putting color or anything else over those priorities is bad breeding. Purposely breeding dogs out of standard is bad breeding. It doesn't mean the people are evil, but it does mean they're not breeding in line with the GRCA's guidelines or good sense.

And I haven't seen a single great breeder who advertises "cream" Goldens. I've seen a few English-type breeders who seem wonderful and ethical, but not one of them advertises their dogs by color, even if some of their dogs are the "cream" allowed in the English standard. They simply fancy a slightly different type of Golden that adheres to a slightly different breed standard (which, btw, still excludes truly white dogs). So it's a pretty good rule of thumb to run away from the word "cream" (or "creme" or "crème" or "white" or "platinum" or "rare") when you see a breeder using it to advertise dogs. Again, it doesn't mean the people are evil, but it does mean that it probably isn't a good place to get a dog.



Nel said:


> Why do we hold dog shows? They are not merely beauty pageants, or a fun hobby for the people. Isn't the purpose to judge your dogs so they should be eligible to produce desirable puppies? So the generations of these dogs would be healthy, clean and true to their nature? But we see Goldens in AKC with severe hip dysplasia. I personally think that we SHOULD make things a little bit more strict...but for the health wise of the dogs.


I totally agree with you, but I'll also point out that the GRCA has some of the strictest ethics I've seen among breed clubs when it comes to what it expects of a good hobby breeder. I don't think we can legally compel people to comply with those ethics (it just isn't realistic), but they're clearly spelled out and fairly tight as breed club guidelines go.

The incidence of hip dysplasia (among other things) among well bred Goldens is incredibly low relative to the incidence among Goldens at large. The OFA has some very clear stats on the subject. If a breeder is truly following the GRCA's COE, that breeder should see a significant lowering of hip dysplasia in his or her dogs over multiple generations. If a breeder is really a genius at matching pedigrees, is in consistent contact with peers and mentors, and has access to truly excellent dogs for breeding, the incidence drops very, very low (not zero, but very low).

I think we can give most of the credit for these positive trends to great breeders and good guidance from the breed club.

As a disclaimer, I don't breed, and I'm not a breed or pedigree expert, so I'm happy to take correction on any of the claims I've made in this post.


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## Shalva

Its always amazing to me... that people can't be more like their dogs. 

NOT EVERY BREEDER is breeding the rare english cream.... and marketing as such. There are those of us who honestly don't care about color but prefer the English/European type. There are pros and cons to both but honestly not every breeder of this type of golden is a scumbag breeder. 

Why do you see more light dogs in the UKC well thats because the standard allows it, the same as in Canada where the standard is more flexible. 

There is more to this type than color although that is the most obvious but certainly not all english/european type dogs are cream or light gold... there are plenty who are medium gold but there are other differences. Honestly I prefer the heads of many of the english/european dogs, they have upper arm and front which is sorely lacking in alot of american type dogs. The legginess that one poster mentioned is actually having upper arm and angle. I don't know what happened to heads in the American type, where is the stop, why are the eyes so squinty why are the heads in so many such a wedge shape (this seems to be improving of late but for a while... oh my). Some English/european dogs are crouchy in the rear, overangulated in the rear, there can be pigment issues with that light coloring as pigment is hard to hold. Many breeders in the UK and other places don't do heart clearances, certainly something to be aware of... The point being that there are issues on both sides but lets be cautious about using sweeping generalizations. 

I try to tell my puppy people who are showing that it is less about color and there are other differences but until they bring their puppy to a show and see how different they are in other areas they don't believe me. 

I would love to be able to show my dogs here in the states. They are different yes but they are goldens and they look like goldens. Interestingly I am getting a Irish wolfhound puppy in the next few months and what I have learned from breeders is that there are two distinct types that they keep because to maintain the breed both types are needed to breed back to in order to maintain the giant size... apprently this is quite common in giant breeds. I am really unclear as to why there can't be appreciation for all of our goldens

I was at a show and watched other exhibitors actually give my puppy dirty looks... for petes sake its a puppy, who sneers at a puppy? I love goldens, English/European type, American type... it doesn't matter. I can appreciate them all. Do I have a preference yeah sure but honestly why can't we appreciate all of them and learn to be more like our easy going sweet natured goldens... all of them.


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## Shelby's Dad

I've seen a couple of English cremes up close and personal, and they sure do like white. It looks sort of odd actually.


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## tippykayak

Shalva said:


> Do I have a preference yeah sure but honestly why can't we appreciate all of them and learn to be more like our easy going sweet natured goldens... all of them.


I don't think anybody put down English-type dogs at all in this thread. I think the main complaint has been against breeding for color and marketing by color.

I hope my previous post was clear that I've seen a bunch of wonderful breeders who prefer English-type, and one of the things that makes them good breeders is that they don't breed for color, but rather for health and adherence to the English standard. These wonderful breeders often have light dogs because those dogs are allowed within the English standard, but their main goal is not the production of light dogs.

If I was not clear and it sounded like I was against English-type dogs, the English standard, or breeders and fanciers of the English type, I apologize.


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## Shelby's Dad

I've seen a couple of English cremes up close and personal. They sure do look white!


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## Shalva

Tippy, 
No I don't think you put down English/European dogs at all... was just putting in my two cents... as I do think that there were some statements made in this thread (not by you) that seemed pretty harsh regarding these dogs. 

I find that I often feel the need to defend and speak for those of us who ARE trying to do it right. Those of us who aren't marketing our dogs as better, faster, stronger (like the six million dollar man) and just goldens. 

I have a puppy I co own and I am constantly trying to get his owner to stop referring to him as creamy or creamhead or whatever... it is not about color. Is he cream, yeah he is, but there is so much more to the type and honestly the color is the part I like the least. I prefer my dogs to have color. 

I remember a few years ago I was interviewing for my last litter and I kept getting people emailing that they wanted white goldens just like Oprah... and I was like oh man com'on I don't have time for this... finally I got an email from someone and i was having a bad day anyway and I was like "OK there is No SUCH THING as a white golden and maybe OPRAH ought to do her homework and with all of her money and staff ..... and well you know I went on and on.. it wasn't nice but honestly I'd had it. 

I don't breed for color, most of us with this type don't breed for color, but it just happens that many of the UK/European dogs are light... is it a fad over there? perhaps but none the less... 

So I know it wasn't you Tippy, I enjoy reading your comments. I just felt I needed to jump in as a breeder of this type... Its hard to be heard here sometimes and I cant say that I haven't felt somewhat offended at times about what I have read but gotta keep plugging away. 
S


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## Loisiana

you also have to consider that "type" has something to do with wins in the conformation ring too. Just because a dog meets the standard doesn't mean it will have a chance in the breed ring.


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## Selli-Belle

Loisiana said:


> you also have to consider that "type" has something to do with wins in the conformation ring too. Just because a dog meets the standard doesn't mean it will have a chance in the breed ring.


Doesn't the standard describe "type"? If "type" means a look which distinguishes a Golden from any other breed and makes one say "That's a Golden" (someone who knows goldens that is). Although it is used mostly in the breed ring, if I see a nice looking field bred Golden, I consider it to have "type" just as much as I would when I see a nice looking show Golden. I agree that just meeting the standard and even having "type" will not necessarily win in the breed ring, but I don't know if that is due to lacking "type."


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## Bender

I'm sure, in Europe, it's common to breed 'American Redes' and charge insane prices for them too. 

I have no issue with colour, it's more the dog and the build that's important. I feel just as annoyed with the byb's who breed red coloured dogs without clearances or titles on them.


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## Pointgold

Selli-Belle said:


> Doesn't the standard describe "type"? If "type" means a look which distinguishes a Golden from any other breed and makes one say "That's a Golden" (someone who knows goldens that is). Although it is used mostly in the breed ring, if I see a nice looking field bred Golden, I consider it to have "type" just as much as I would when I see a nice looking show Golden. I agree that just meeting the standard and even having "type" will not necessarily win in the breed ring, but I don't know if that is due to lacking "type."


There is a problem using the word "type" interchangeably as "style". Type defines the breed. Two dogs of a different style can still possess breed type. If you were to make a sillouhette of each you should still be able to distinguish them as Golden Retrievers - that is type. Yet, there may be different characteristics between them that are very distinctive - that is style.


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## Loisiana

Thanks for the correction, I do get my terms mixed up.

But what I was getting at is that there are plenty of dogs out there who meet the standard that would never get a second look in the breed ring. In theory, shouldn't two dogs that score equally well on a CCA have an equal chance in the breed ring(differences on judges aside)? But obviously that isn't the case.


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## Selli-Belle

Loisiana said:


> Thanks for the correction, I do get my terms mixed up.
> 
> But what I was getting at is that there are plenty of dogs out there who meet the standard that would never get a second look in the breed ring. In theory, shouldn't two dogs that score equally well on a CCA have an equal chance in the breed ring(differences on judges aside)? But obviously that isn't the case.


I do agree that many dogs who are within the standard have little to no chance in the breed ring and I agree that different styles of dogs will perform differently in the ring. Is it fair? I don't know, but all aspects of the competitive dog fancy have their own biases and we frequently get involved in the aspect that suits our bias.


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## Pointgold

Loisiana said:


> Thanks for the correction, I do get my terms mixed up.
> 
> But what I was getting at is that there are plenty of dogs out there who meet the standard that would never get a second look in the breed ring. In theory, shouldn't two dogs that score equally well on a CCA have an equal chance in the breed ring(differences on judges aside)? But obviously that isn't the case.


I think I understand your question... And my answer would be "not necessarily." Because while the 2 CCA dogs may have an equal chance against _each other, _there is the added variable of _other _dogs in the ring - who may have scored even higher if evaluated in a CCA. Theoretically, in both cases (CCA - show ring) the dogs are supposed to be judged against the standard. However, in the show ring, because it _is _a competition, the judge is selecting the dog that he feels _better_ represents that standard than does another dog. In a CCA, it is non-competitive, so unless dramatically out of standard, a dog will earn it.


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## tippykayak

Shalva said:


> Tippy,
> No I don't think you put down English/European dogs at all... was just putting in my two cents... as I do think that there were some statements made in this thread (not by you) that seemed pretty harsh regarding these dogs.


I agree. I think the intent is usually to go after bad breeders, but if the language is the slightest bit imprecise, it can sound like everybody with a light dog is part of the problem, which is definitely not the case. 



Shalva said:


> I have a puppy I co own and I am constantly trying to get his owner to stop referring to him as creamy or creamhead or whatever... it is not about color. Is he cream, yeah he is, but there is so much more to the type and honestly the color is the part I like the least. I prefer my dogs to have color.


And if you're breeding to the English standard, a cream colored dog is specifically inside the standard.



Shalva said:


> So I know it wasn't you Tippy, I enjoy reading your comments. I just felt I needed to jump in as a breeder of this type... Its hard to be heard here sometimes and I cant say that I haven't felt somewhat offended at times about what I have read but gotta keep plugging away.


I'm glad you're here to jump in. I have only a sort of long distance relationship with the English type since I don't know a single breeder of English-type dogs in person and don't have personal experience with any English-type dogs that were bred properly and ethically.


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