# 8 month old growling at family members.



## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

Okay... first of all, they need to establish pack leader status. Have them work with her on Sit and Down. Ask them to only give her treats when she does something for them. I know that my ideas are not exactly PC, but I am not a PC kinda person. 

If she growls at your mom and dad, they need to put her on her side and hold her there until she sighs. She is claiming pack order and needs to know where her place is. If mom and dad are not using growling type voices when they tell her no, they are not getting their point across. If they are saying "no no" in a sing song voice, they are not coming across. 

JMHO


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Look up Nothing in Life is Free. It's a very good non-confrontational method to teach your dog the people are the boss. It teaches you things like people through the door first, dogs must work for everything they want (i.e., perform a sit or down or any thing you choose) then they get their treat or toy or food; no furniture access. 

You will need to get your parents to consistently use NLIF so that they establish themselves as an authority to Flora.

(I don't agree with rolling the dog on it's side or back).


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> Look up Nothing in Life is Free. It's a very good non-confrontational method to teach your dog the people are the boss. It teaches you things like people through the door first, dogs must work for everything they want (i.e., perform a sit or down or any thing you choose) then they get their treat or toy or food; no furniture access.
> 
> You will need to get your parents to consistently use NLIF so that they establish themselves as an authority to Flora.
> 
> (I don't agree with rolling the dog on it's side or back).


That was my thought. I have definitely worked on that with Flora personally, which may be why she doesn't challenge me. My mother does feed her in the mornings and always makes her sit and wait before eating, so that's a start. It's just going to be very hard with two people who don't think they are responsible for training her at all. My mom is getting more and more fearful of her which I think is going to make it even more difficult. I tried telling her that Flora used to challenge me in this way when she was younger, growling at me and mouthing my arm, and that I ignored the behavior and it eventually went away, but she's still uncomfortable.

How should they react to her when she growls? I wasn't sure if a firm "NO" was appropriate, or maybe just an interrupting noise like an 'ah-ah!' I'm hoping the next time she does it I am there to help deal with the situation. Flora is such a submissive dog otherwise that I don't want to make her fearful or anything, so I want to approach this problem in the most positive way and make it a learning experience for both human and dog.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I don't really agree with the whole pack/pack leader concept much for goldens, especially when there is only one or two in a family. Goldens are sometimes soft, sensitive dogs, and I wonder if Flora has been frightened? Alternatively, other goldens really are bossy, and try out things like growling, which I agree can escalate. Do you have a sense if Flora is more bossyish, more bratty, more aggressive, or more nervous in these situations? It helps to have a ballpark of why she is doing this and what the growls signifies she is experiencing before offering solutions/ suggestions. I do agree that it is a serious matter.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I don't really agree with the whole pack/pack leader concept much for goldens, especially when there is only one or two in a family. Goldens are sometimes soft, sensitive dogs, and I wonder if Flora has been frightened? Alternatively, other goldens really are bossy, and try out things like growling, which I agree can escalate. Do you have a sense if Flora is more bossyish, more bratty, more aggressive, or more nervous in these situations? It helps to have a ballpark of why she is doing this and what the growls signifies she is experiencing before offering solutions/ suggestions. I do agree that it is a serious matter.


Not having personally witnessed it I can't say with complete certainty, but knowing Flora's personality I would definitely chalk it up to brattiness. She is not bossy and is overall a very sensitive, silly girl. She's the type of dog that will flop over onto her back and wag her tail while you rub her belly, so this type of behavior is surprising.

In terms of her being frightened, as I mentioned before, my father could get a little rough with her and would yank her off the couch by the scruff of her neck. I always reprimanded him for doing that, but he is of the mind that a dog owner should "show the dog who's boss." My mother has NEVER done anything like that though, and she has growled twice at my mom, too. Only when she was on the couch. The second time she growled my mom came and got me, and I managed to approach Flora on the couch, simply say, "Come here Flora," and she readily jumped off, tail wagging and everything.

I asked my dad today about Flora's overall posture when she growled. He said she did not stare at him in a threatening manner or seem particularly tensed up when she growled.

Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. Flora used to growl a little and gnaw at my arm when I would give her baths, but that behavior is long gone. Perhaps this is just another little quirk that will work itself out.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hello!
Well normally I would have a zero tolerance for growling at people BUT it sounds like the dog has a legitimate grievance with Dad. She knows that if he goes for her when she's on the couch, it hurts. In her mind what she is doing is nothing wrong and he's giving her no warning or direction to do something to avoid his behavior.
Now, the growling at mom too (and you in the past) adds up to a dog who is pushy and has found out she often gets her way by growling. Appreciate that -- at least she is giving a warning -- but that also says she is begging for more structure and more training to get her used to working and dealing with perceived pressure. That she must obey commands, she does not have the option of saying "no thanks." This is up to you since obviously your parents are not about to get out there and train your dog.
Are you in obedience class now? You should be.
You also need to do more than say "the couch is off limits." The couch is only off limits if she physically cannot reach the couch 100% of the time. Is this true? If not then she has the opportunity to get on the couch.
You need to teach her a very reliable "OFF" command. "OFF" means four feet on the floor. Get off the couch, get off the bed, get out of the car, stop jumping, etc. Four on the floor. I find the best way to teach this is to physically remove the dog with your hands (do not be gentle, don't cause pain but leave no doubt in the dog's mind that your actions were on purpose) while saying OFF. When the dog has four feet on the ground, pet and praise them. Good things happen when four feet hit the floor.
So if you are not there to supervise Flora, Flora needs to be confined in a crate or in your bedroom. Do not leave her out to interact with Mom & Dad if she's not going to behave herself and the parents are going to interact negatively with her. If she's your dog then you're responsible for her, that means confining her if you're gone. 
If you must leave her loose with your parents, have her drag a 4" leash so she always has a handle your parents can use to move her. This will give them a more hands-off (away from teeth) option of moving her.
Best of luck,


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Hello!
> Well normally I would have a zero tolerance for growling at people BUT it sounds like the dog has a legitimate grievance with Dad. She knows that if he goes for her when she's on the couch, it hurts. In her mind what she is doing is nothing wrong and he's giving her no warning or direction to do something to avoid his behavior.
> Now, the growling at mom too (and you in the past) adds up to a dog who is pushy and has found out she often gets her way by growling. Appreciate that -- at least she is giving a warning -- but that also says she is begging for more structure and more training to get her used to working and dealing with perceived pressure. That she must obey commands, she does not have the option of saying "no thanks." This is up to you since obviously your parents are not about to get out there and train your dog.
> Are you in obedience class now? You should be.
> ...


I appreciate the advice. She was being physically removed from the couch by my father - he would grab her by her scruff and pull her off the couch. He didn't hit her or anything, just simply grab her and pull her off. He never caused her pain. Yesterday he said he saw Flora's breeder grab his dogs by their scruff and he thought it was okay to do, so I know he was acting in good conscience. I guess I saw that as a little too rough for Flora because she is so very sensitive, but maybe that's just me.

Flora's been in 3 obedience classes, and as I said, overall she is fabulous. We don't crate her - she doesn't need to be as she simply has never chewed anything or gotten into trouble (save for grabbing a kleenex out of the garbage every now and then) - and aside from this and a little jumping issue with certain people (my mom included), she really is pretty perfect.

I will work on making the couch more off limits and getting my parents to claim that space more authoritatively. I can only guess that she sees the couch as "her" space, because she doesn't growl when we reach for her toys, or bones, or anything else. I had her on her back a few moments ago cutting out a mat lodged behind her elbow, and she just stared at me and wagged her tail. She's a goofy girl, but a little unpredictable I guess.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

First, I strongly commend you for taking this seriously. 
While this can be seen in teenagers, it's simply not acceptable, and I'm really glad to see you addressing it now. When people ignore it is when it can escalate into something that can become very ugly.
Growling at humans for enforcing rules is just not allowed, period. I would NOT expect a young golden to growl at someone for grabbing them by the scruff and dragging them off the sofa, no matter what. Have you watched 2 dogs play? I don't care how "sensitive" Flora is, she's not that sensitive that being grabbed by the scruff (you said he wasn't hurting her) should elicit a growl. Growling for putting on a harness? "Who do you think you are?" comes to my mind. And "mouthing"? I'm sorry, that's the precursor to a serious bite.
I know you are in a very tough situation because parents are so much harder to train than dogs are, but they do need to follow through on what you do. Basically Flora is saying that she will only listen to people she respects, and will growl at others. NOT ACCEPTABLE!
Your parents need to understand how "nothing in life is free" works. Can you explain to them that she just needs to understand that she is not above them in the household? I understand how hard this is since you can't control them. I agree with Anney, who said you need to crate or confine her if she is threatening your parents, or at the very least let her drag a 4 foot leash so that they can get ahold of her without getting too close if they need to. 
As far as the actual growling, when your mom came and got you, you gave Flora a totally different command. What would happen if your mom/dad said "come here Flora" rather than "get off the couch?". 
If it happens again, let your mom/dad come and get you, and you try giving her a command to get off the couch. If she growls at you, I personally would then physically remove her from the couch (like Anney said, not hurting her but in no uncertain terms) and then put her in a DOWN-STAY for at least 5 minutes to reaffirm that it is your right to determine who is where, when.
You are NOT making a mountain out of a molehill. It needs to be addressed while it's just an annoyance, not a situation in which your parents stand to get hurt.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

OFF is a very important command! I use it quite often with my dogs.

My Jasmine used to snarl at me when I would go to put her in her crate when I left for work. She was always on the sofa when she did it. She also would growl at my son when she slept in his bed and he dared to roll over. It all started at about 8 months of age. We had to demote her by not allowing her to be on the furniture at all. Once she stopped being such a brat, we allowed her back up on the sofa, with permission. She asks and I always tell her yes. But she always asks.

How about blocking the couch, either with pillows or an upside down ottoman for a while? Since that seems to be her "trigger", would that be possible? Or baby gate her out of the room that the sofa is in?

I also agree with using a short leash on her at all times so that your mom or dad can use it (if you can't block access to the sofa). When she gets up on the sofa, they can pull her off, gently, and use the command OFF. I am sure that very quickly she will learn that command and stop the bratty behavior.

I also don't believe in putting a dog on their side and holding them there to "show" you are the boss.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> First, I strongly commend you for taking this seriously.
> While this can be seen in teenagers, it's simply not acceptable, and I'm really glad to see you addressing it now. When people ignore it is when it can escalate into something that can become very ugly.
> Growling at humans for enforcing rules is just not allowed, period. I would NOT expect a young golden to growl at someone for grabbing them by the scruff and dragging them off the sofa, no matter what. Have you watched 2 dogs play? I don't care how "sensitive" Flora is, she's not that sensitive that being grabbed by the scruff (you said he wasn't hurting her) should elicit a growl. Growling for putting on a harness? "Who do you think you are?" comes to my mind. And "mouthing"? I'm sorry, that's the precursor to a serious bite.
> I know you are in a very tough situation because parents are so much harder to train than dogs are, but they do need to follow through on what you do. Basically Flora is saying that she will only listen to people she respects, and will growl at others. NOT ACCEPTABLE!
> ...


ditto what hotel4dogs said. this behavior is not acceptable. at all. lots of good advice here.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

<<I appreciate the advice. She was being physically removed from the couch by my father - he would grab her by her scruff and pull her off the couch. He didn't hit her or anything, just simply grab her and pull her off. He never caused her pain. Yesterday he said he saw Flora's breeder grab his dogs by their scruff and he thought it was okay to do, so I know he was acting in good conscience. I guess I saw that as a little too rough for Flora because she is so very sensitive, but maybe that's just me.>>

Well, we don't know if it hurts or not -- but I bet Flora sees it as threatening. If dad is not giving her any warning but just dragging her off she may view it as an attack. Hence the growling to warn him off. 
The two behaviors of growling and "sensitive" are typically mutually exclusive. She cannot be as sensitive as you think she is if she's trying to get her way by threatening aggression (growling). She's probably a lot tougher than you think and has simply learned that offering submissive behaviors gets her what she wants (leaning on you, rolling over, pawing at you, laying up against you, etc). This is very common for goldens. People think they are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sweet and gentle and really a lot of the times they are passively manipulative. Clever creatures.

<<Flora's been in 3 obedience classes, and as I said, overall she is fabulous. We don't crate her - she doesn't need to be as she simply has never chewed anything or gotten into trouble (save for grabbing a kleenex out of the garbage every now and then) - and aside from this and a little jumping issue with certain people (my mom included), she really is pretty perfect.>>

Well that is nice -- but growling at people doesn't even approach "pretty perfect." Again, I understand her growling at dad for physically wrestling her off the couch, but she needs a little more pressure and a little more stability to deal with that pressure without melting OR overreacting defensively. A GOOD obedience class that really challenges the dog is the best mode to approach this. I don't mean take her to a class with a drill sargeant, I mean I have seen many puppy and basic obedience classes that are nothing more than teaching the puppy to follow a cookie around, and that just doesn't cut it.

<<I will work on making the couch more off limits and getting my parents to claim that space more authoritatively. I can only guess that she sees the couch as "her" space, because she doesn't growl when we reach for her toys, or bones, or anything else. I had her on her back a few moments ago cutting out a mat lodged behind her elbow, and she just stared at me and wagged her tail. She's a goofy girl, but a little unpredictable I guess.>>

You're sort of contradicting yourself here -- you worry you are making a mountain out of a molehill yet you are willing to brush off a lot of warning signs that are right there. I would be much more proactive in keeping her confined when you are not there so she doesn't have the opportunity to practice this unwanted behavior with Mom & Dad.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi, it seems like the couch and Flora getting on it is an issue here. If I was you I'd put something like a broom on the couch to stop her from going up there at all. If she has the habit of sneaking up there, then this will make it far too uncomfortable to do so. Its not problem to take off when someone wants to sit down, but if someone is there she doesn't go on the couch, right??

Just a thought, its what I would do anyway.

Takes away the tension around getting her off, no stand-off, no growling, no problem!


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