# Color allowances?



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Is your dog of show breeding? Some pretty dark dogs can win, but there's a lot more than color to consider. Are his parents being shown? Many beautiful Goldens are not of show breeding (or are, but are not show quality) and wouldn't win, but that doesn't take away from their beauty and ability to be great pets! For the record, color doesn't matter at all for obedience, field work, agility, etc.


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

We got him from a BYB, but his parents had their papers. I know that doesnt mean too much though.

Why does it matter if the parents are shown?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well, if his parents are not show dogs, then chances are, he wasn't bred for showing... which means most likely he isn't the right type of Golden to win shows. It can be subtle to detect, but goldens bred specially for showing have a look to them that gives them the winning edge- the shape of the head, eyes, ears... the way the trot/move, their shoulders, the angles in their legs, their feet... and so forth. The chances a BYB dog would turn out show quality are virtually zero, unfortunately. My own Golden girl wouldn't win... she's GORGEOUS (of course I think so) and she has some show type breeding behind her, but she just wouldn't quite have what it takes for showing.

If you're interested in showing, I'd suggest attending a show or two, and considering eventually buying a puppy of show breeding. However, your handsome red head can in the meantime help you get introduced to all kinds of aspects of the dog world (like obedience, agility, rally, and field work). A good Golden can do soooo much! You'd never run out of activities to enjoy and compete with him in, even if you don't show in conformation. 

I have two show bred Whippets- both top picks of their litters- and it's still hard to win! I ended up decided to not even show either of them, and to do lure coursing (a racing type sport for Whippets, Greyhounds, and other sighthound breeds) and maybe some agility and obedience. 

Also, you can, if you find a local show person/breeder, learn to groom a show Golden with your boy as your practice dog, if he himself cannot be shown. You can practice your handling skills, and he may be able to compete in UKC, too- many dogs who wouldn't make the cut at AKC shows can enjoy success in UKC (though that depends on the area- some parts of the USA are very tough/high entries for UKC, others like where I live, there are NO Goldens at all in UKC).


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I agree wtih what Aqua said

however, if you dead set on showing your dog you might want to go and read the breed standard at akc.org 
http://www.akc.org/breeds/golden_retriever/index.cfm

you will see the paragraph which states.... as follows... 
*Color*
*Rich, lustrous golden of various shades*. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. *Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable.* Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.

Now the thing about showing is that the standard is subject to interpretation by the judge.... what is extremely light to one judge may not be to another. 

I think what Aqua says is correct though... if your dog was not bred to be a show dog... wtih no mind to the breed standard or conformation you will likely find that the show ring is not the place you want to be... I had a friend years ago when I was showing one of my flat coats who had a lovely lab... she thought he was the most beautiful thing in the world... and I was showing so she decided to show him as well.... he came in dead last in every single show.... and she was disappointed and she never quite looked at him the same ... yes she loved him but before she would talk about about how gorgeous he was and how she had never seen such a gorgeous lab and now she will say he is pretty but not a show dog... It was actually quite sad to see.... 

the show ring can be a rough place... it might be worth visiting a few shows 
and seeing what those dogs look like... it may make more sense what we are talking about.... 

S


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

from the GRCC


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

LOVEisGOLDEN said:


> from the GRCC


well that shows the different shades goldens come in but that doesn't mean they are accepted in the breed ring or by the AKC breed standard.... 

showing is a completely different ball of wax... and even in canada the lighter colored dogs are difficult to show and compete with... 

regardless of whether the dog legitimately is a certain color if the breed standard penalizes the color it doesnt matter and in the us the standard clearly says that extremely light or dark is undesireable....

that picture is also from the GRCC and in canada, the standard is a more accepting of a wider variety of colors


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I agree in essence with what everyone is saying, but if its something you want to do, I don't see why you shouldn't, just be aware that you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.

I have shown my bitch very occasionally, with some success, but she didn't go into her first show until over a year old... big mistake!!! The top breeders start with teaching their dogs to stand properly at 8 weeks old or earlier. They go into the show ring as soon as they are old enough, and every weekend plus occasional week days are spent going to shows when they are campaigning a puppy. So when us amateurs pitch up and try to compete against the 'professionals' we are at a disadvantage right from the word go!

If I had my time again (we plan to keep an Izzie pup to show hopefully later this year) I will do things very differently! There's so much more to it than how good your dog looks. They need to 'perform' in the show ring, and be really relaxed in that atmosphere.

Do you have a photo we could see of your dog?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> well that shows the different shades goldens come in but that doesn't mean they are accepted in the breed ring or by the AKC breed standard....
> 
> showing is a completely different ball of wax... and even in canada the lighter colored dogs are difficult to show and compete with...
> 
> ...


 
Actually, any of those dogs (we are speaking color only, now) would be accetable to the standard. A good judge will not put up a dog based on color alone, but, as the standard reads, a dog whose predominant body color is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable - there must be gold in the coat. A dark dog can still have gold in it, as can a light dog. And yes, it is subjective, but a good judge will look at structure and movement before color, and even if s/he prefers one color over another, should put up the better overall dog. Dark dogs DO win - look at Kirby, and Crosby, among others. And light dogs win, as well. The key is that they possess breed type, and are still a "rich, lustrous shade of gold".

A "show bred" dog is bred with an eye to the standard, and to have correct movement, and structure that will allow the dog to do his job and remain sound.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tanyac said:


> I agree in essence with what everyone is saying, but if its something you want to do, I don't see why you shouldn't, just be aware that you may be setting yourself up for disappointment.
> 
> I have shown my bitch very occasionally, with some success, but she didn't go into her first show until over a year old... big mistake!!! The top breeders start with teaching their dogs to stand properly at 8 weeks old or earlier. They go into the show ring as soon as they are old enough, and every weekend plus occasional week days are spent going to shows when they are campaigning a puppy. So when us amateurs pitch up and try to compete against the 'professionals' we are at a disadvantage right from the word go!
> 
> ...


I disagree with the statement that amateurs are at a disadvantage. Any disadvantage is their own doing. Many of the most successful dogs are dogs that are breeder/owner handled. I really don't like hearing that we cannot compete against the pros - many of us are doing a fine job of beating them. Often the difference is that the "amateurs" do not put nearly as much effort into it as do the "pros" and the successful breeders. Conditioning, grooming, presentation are ALL things that can be done, and often BETTER, by owner handlers. But they cannot expect that they can take Fido, who lives on the couch all week, out on the occasional weekend and do well. Fido needs to be trained, conditioned, undergo regular grooming. And an owner handler can make it FUN. It's good time spent with your dog. And, if he is a good example of the breed, and your put everything you can into him, you CAN beat the pros.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

It is really the judge that day who makes the decision whether in the US or Canada. There are judges who prefer darker dogs and some that prefer lighter dogs.These are the judges you will see fault the oposite end of the scale. I think you will find that you would have a better chance if your dog is on the darker end of the scale as opposed to the lighter end. But again it would also depend on the judge that day's interpretation of the standard. There have been a number of very dark dogs do quite well in the breed ring over the years.

And another very important part of the GRCA/AKC standard with regard to color is the word "lustrous". 
The definition is 
_Having a sheen or glow. _
_Gleaming with or as if with brilliant light; radiant._


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Shalva said:


> well that shows the different shades goldens come in but that doesn't mean they are accepted in the breed ring or by the AKC breed standard....
> 
> showing is a completely different ball of wax... and even in canada the lighter colored dogs are difficult to show and compete with...
> 
> ...


agreed, 100%....just a neat pic that was found on an old thread.:wavey:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

As regards coat, there are more problems in coats than color. There are too many dogs out that have overly soft coats, or coats that are too long, and silky, like setter coats. Some exhibitors are actually blowing the coat in a manner that makes it appear to be open, which is to be penalized.
Grooming fads and trends come and go, but a good dog is a good dog, and good judge will not be fooled. It is up to the GRCA to _properly _educate judges, and to not attempt to promote one style or another (read that one _kennel _or another) and to assure that the best dogs are in fact being put up.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> As regards coat, there are more problems in coats than color. There are too many dogs out that have overly soft coats, or coats that are too long, and silky, like setter coats. Some exhibitors are actually blowing the coat in a manner that makes it appear to be open, which is to be penalized.
> Grooming fads and trends come and go, but a good dog is a good dog, and good judge will not be fooled. It is up to the GRCA to _properly _educate judges, and to not attempt to promote one style or another (read that one _kennel _or another) and to assure that the best dogs are in fact being put up.


I think this is very naive.... I have watched judges for many years and to be honest sometimes it just makes you wonder. 

I have watched judges put up dogs that never should have been in the ring... I have seen judges tell people with liver flat coats that they were at the wrong ring and they missed the lab judging.... 

I also think that many of the goldens that I see right now have terrible heads and horrendous fronts... but if that is all a judge ever sees then they think its correct... look at how many dogs finish and place in groups with god awful movement .... but darn it they are flashy... 

As far as color is concerned.... try taking a light dog out... now I know my girls faults better than anyone... and I don't mind losing to a good dog.... but when my girl is the only lighter colored dog in the ring and comes in dead last every time.... and then I go to Canada and the very same dog wins the points and the class every single time... ya just gotta wonder. Well I dont wonder really, its about how the standard is written and the Canadian Standard is much more accepting of diversity of color as the picture above shows. The UK standard to which my dogs are bred is also much more accepting of diversity if color and darn it thats where our breed developed... and then you come here and the standard as far as color is much more restrictive. 

There are some absolutely gorgeous English type dogs out there who just don't even bother to show in the states because when they step into that ring they stand out like a sore thumb and if we are going to figure that the job of the judge is to put up the dog that most fits what they invision a golden to look like and meets the standard structurally then that cream colored of very light colored English type dog just isn't going to be that image and as such color does matter. 

GRCA is in charge of judges education.... and as such are in charge of noticing these fads and trends that are changing the breed we love. Whatever happened to a beautiful golden retriever head..?? what about fronts and shoulder layback?? 

To suggest that color doesn't matter and type doesnt matter and its all about structure is not entirely correct. I am happy to lend you a structurally gorgeous light colored dog... see what happens.... 

As far as handlers vs. owners or amateurs. The fact is that handlers are handlers because they do a good job... they know how to make a bad dog look good, and a good dog look great. They manage to get the dog to work for them and they don't stand around the ring chit chatting while the judge is making his final go round. In this area I agree with you somewhat... my husband who handles our dogs has beaten the pros on more than a few occasions.... people now ask him to handle their dogs... the pros know him when he sets foot in the group ring and treat him as part of the gang... and he started as a lowly owner handler.... and is still just a lowly owner handler

My point being I dont think it is as cut and dry as you make it out to be


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I think this is very naive.... I have watched judges for many years and to be honest sometimes it just makes you wonder.
> 
> I have watched judges put up dogs that never should have been in the ring... I have seen judges tell people with liver flat coats that they were at the wrong ring and they missed the lab judging....
> 
> ...


Seriously, I can hardly be called naive when it comes to judging. . I said GOOD judges. There are judges in the ring that don't know a Golden from a pomegranate, that holds true for all breeds. But there are also very good judges who are dog men and women through and through. I won't waste my money on entries to the former, and look for the latter - and those are the judges who may not put _me _up, but I appreciate the dogs that they do. I don't mind being beaten by a good dog. I'm a breeder, and I want what is best for the breed. I don't know what area of the country you are showing in, but as bad as I have seen it, I've not seen it as bad as you are describing. And I did not say that color doesn't matter, but that a GOOD judge will not sacrifice the better dog because of color. And if you've been on this forum for any length of time, I have had _plenty _to say about type. I've done well enough with light colored dogs, although I prefer medium, true gold, and I have been beaten by dogs lighter than I prefer. Handlers are handlers because they do a good job yes, but there is absolutely NO reason that an owner handler cannot be competitive, and in Goldens, many are, and most are more so at the class level. It is at the breed and Group levels that it becomes more difficult, but it still is not impossible.
I may not have been clear in that I believe that the GRCA is not doing as good a job educating new judges as they should be, and that certain styles and individual kennels are being promoted. 
I believe that anyone who believes he or she is "just a lowly owner handler" is proficying their own doom. If you have a good dog, and you have learned to groom and present it well, you should take it in the ring with pride and do your best to kick a$$.
Really, I get tired of the whining about how amateurs can't beat the pros. Learn to condition, groom, and present your dogs well and you most certainly can.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Seriously, I can hardly be called naive when it comes to judging. . I said GOOD judges. There are judges in the ring that don't know a Golden from a pomegranate, that holds true for all breeds. But there are also very good judges who are dog men and women through and through. I won't waste my money on entries to the former, and look for the latter - and those are the judges who may not put _me _up, but I appreciate the dogs that they do. I don't mind being beaten by a good dog. I'm a breeder, and I want what is best for the breed. I don't know what area of the country you are showing in, but as bad as I have seen it, I've not seen it as bad as you are describing. And I did not say that color doesn't matter, but that a GOOD judge will not sacrifice the better dog because of color. And if you've been on this forum for any length of time, I have had _plenty _to say about type. I've done well enough with light colored dogs, although I prefer medium, true gold, and I have been beaten by dogs lighter than I prefer. Handlers are handlers because they do a good job yes, but there is absolutely NO reason that an owner handler cannot be competitive, and in Goldens, many are, and most are more so at the class level. It is at the breed and Group levels that it becomes more difficult, but it still is not impossible.
> I may not have been clear in that I believe that the GRCA is not doing as good a job educating new judges as they should be, and that certain styles and individual kennels are being promoted.
> I believe that anyone who believes he or she is "just a lowly owner handler" is proficying their own doom. If you have a good dog, and you have learned to groom and present it well, you should take it in the ring with pride and do your best to kick a$$.
> Really, I get tired of the whining about how amateurs can't beat the pros. Learn to condition, groom, and present your dogs well and you most certainly can.


Actually I totally agree wtih you about the handler issue and said so in my comments. I think it is easier to blame being an owner handler than to look at your own dog. My husband handles our dog 90% of the time and when I said lowly owner handler I was being sarcastic sorry if that didn't come across.... I absolutely agree about the handling issue... 

what I take exception with is the color issue.... and light in color is subjective... but I will be honest and say that I don't think most judges are brave enough to put up a dog that looks very different from the other dogs in a class... regardless of how good that dog is. Lets be honest, they want their next judging assignment. Put a cream dog in the ring.... I have a friend whose dog just picked up a CCA .... absolutely gorgeous boy... gorgeous to die for boy... and she can't do a darned thing with him in the states... because the judges are not open to other types... 

The issue is that I may not be fond of the typical "American" type (show dog) and I use that term as point of differentiation... for clarities sake.... but I can appreciate a good dog regardless of type.... I am a sucker for a great front and shoulder layback and show me a nice head and I melt. I have watched competitors actually snear at my cream colored puppy (who turned into a nice shade of light gold).... I do not agree with some of the English folks who want to develop their own breed.... RIDICULOUS... goldens are goldens regardless of type and which standard you are breeding to. The fact is that I wish you were right.... I wish that GRCA would rewrite the standard to be inclusive of ALL golden retrievers so we could show here.... but they don't. I wish judges would be open to all types and recognize that they are just a type variation .... and that they are all golden retrievers... but that doesn't happen either. 

The image posted above about the variations in color is an excellent one... and its to bad that the GRCA doesn't adopt the same attitude in that there are many variations of our beautiful dogs.... ALL are acceptable and its up to the judge to REALLY find the best dog.... it would do everyone, especially the breed a world of good....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> The image posted above about the variations in color is an excellent one... and its to bad that the GRCA doesn't adopt the same attitude in that there are many variations of our beautiful dogs.... ALL are acceptable and its up to the judge to REALLY find the best dog.... it would do everyone, especially the breed a world of good....


 
And I will disagree with you in that I feel that the GRCA _does _accept the variations in color. But, as the standard states: _Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. _
The fact of the matter is that the judges education committee is actually comprised of certain breeders who in fact are promoting a more "European" type, of a lighter color.

I appreciate a good dog. Period. However, what I see in our country (which happens to be the USA ) being promoted as "English" or "European", is for the most part an exagerration of what is actually seen in those countries. I love the dog that won at Crufts, and believe he would do well here, also. But, that is not the style of dog that we are seeing here as being "English". Some of our UK forum members have expressed surprise and concern at the marketing of "British/English fill in the blank" dogs as looking very little like what they actually see in their country. 

I guess that just as you say your prefer the "English type", I believe that since we are in the US, and our standard is somewhat different (there are more similarities than not) that we need to accept that dogs more fitting the European standards simply will be less likely to be successful here, just as our dogs likely would be less successful there.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Hi there,

You could, by all means try doing some conformation. Keep in mind your dog would need to be intact and have his papers as a start. Also, if he was not bred with conformation ring hopes in mind, chances are he may not ever do anything - a lot of work and effort on your part. Conformation is a bit of guesswork at the best of times and even with a well bred dog it's not always an easy thing to do well with.

There is however agility, flyball, obedience, field, tracking, rally, you name it that you can try with him and have fun, or compete in. If you really want to get into conformation I would suggest starting with these sorts of things with your dog, then look at getting a conformation dog down the road when you're ready. Being active in the dog world will go long way to show breeders you are committed to getting a conformation title on a dog (I know breeders here usually get several people wanting a show pup, but then never do anything with the dog - they just thought that otherwise they wouldn't get as nice of a puppy). 

I don't know if there are any good websites that explain conformation in goldens, but maybe someone here does and can post it for you - it would help. 

Lana


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> And I will disagree with you in that I feel that the GRCA _does _accept the variations in color. But, as the standard states: _Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. _
> The fact of the matter is that the judges education committee is actually comprised of certain breeders who in fact are promoting a more "European" type, of a lighter color.
> 
> I appreciate a good dog. Period. However, what I see in our country (which happens to be the USA ) being promoted as "English" or "European", is for the most part an exagerration of what is actually seen in those countries. I love the dog that won at Crufts, and believe he would do well here, also. But, that is not the style of dog that we are seeing here as being "English". Some of our UK forum members have expressed surprise and concern at the marketing of "British/English fill in the blank" dogs as looking very little like what they actually see in their country.
> ...


And as such to say that color doesn't matter and its all about structure is not correct, and that is the point I was making to begin with.... you just made my point for me.... 
s


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> And as such to say that color doesn't matter and its all about structure is not correct, and that is the point I was making to begin with.... you just made my point for me....
> s


No, I didn't. Because our standard states, and rightfully so, I feel, that TOO pale or TOO dark is to be penalized (the breed is, after all, a GOLDEN Retriever) dogs that are either will be discounted. If you want to talk semantics, then yes, in that respect it does "matter". However, I maintain that a* good *judge will not sacrifice the better dog DUE to color, as long as he is not TOO pale or TOO dark, which the standard requires be penalized. Structure is far more important than color.
People who are touting English and European dogs are making color the issue. Far too many of the dogs that they say are not winning because of their color have weak rears, poor toplines, and are course overall. Put a lovely dog like the Crufts winner in the ring and believe me, he's going to be in the ribbons.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> No, I didn't. Because our standard states, and rightfully so, I feel, that TOO pale or TOO dark is to be penalized (the breed is, after all, a GOLDEN Retriever) dogs that are either will be discounted. If you want to talk semantics, then yes, in that respect it does "matter". However, I maintain that a* good *judge will not sacrifice the better dog DUE to color, as long as he is not TOO pale or TOO dark, which the standard requires be penalized. Structure is far more important than color.
> People who are touting English and European dogs are making color the issue. Far too many of the dogs that they say are not winning because of their color have weak rears, poor toplines, and are course overall. Put a lovely dog like the Crufts winner in the ring and believe me, he's going to be in the ribbons.


uh huh 
sure 
I think you would be wrong but we will never know will we. I attend Crufts every year... and if you haven't gone you should. This will be the first in a few that I am not going opting for the Flat Coat Champ show instead. 

There are poorly bred American type dogs and poorly bred english type dogs.... there are breeders who breed for color and there are breeders like myself that breed for the whole shebang... structure, type, working ability health and temperament...the fact is that there is a wide range of variety in the golden retriever breed.... it is one breed.... and the GRCA accepts a very small bit of that range. At the tea this year at the national there were some absolutely gorgeous English type dogs... most of whom were very light in color... yet you don't see them in the ring down here .... you see them in Canada all the time ... but hardly ever here... and there is a reason for that... and perhaps its time to look at how our standard is written... so that it is more inclusive... so the best GOLDEN RETRIEVER has a chance to win regardless of type and color but really because they have the best overall structure and coat and movement and all else that goes into making a superior dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> uh huh
> sure
> I think you would be wrong but we will never know will we. I attend Crufts every year... and if you haven't gone you should. This will be the first in a few that I am not going opting for the Flat Coat Champ show instead.
> 
> There are poorly bred American type dogs and poorly bred english type dogs.... there are breeders who breed for color and there are breeders like myself that breed for the whole shebang... structure, type, working ability health and temperament...the fact is that there is a wide range of variety in the golden retriever breed.... it is one breed.... and the GRCA accepts a very small bit of that range. At the tea this year at the national there were some absolutely gorgeous English type dogs... most of whom were very light in color... yet you don't see them in the ring down here .... you see them in Canada all the time ... but hardly ever here... and there is a reason for that... and perhaps its time to look at how our standard is written... so that it is more inclusive... so the best GOLDEN RETRIEVER has a chance to win regardless of type and color but really because they have the best overall structure and coat and movement and all else that goes into making a superior dog.


 
We'll just have to agree to disagree, then. Because I don't believe that the GRCA accepts a "very small bit" of that range at all. The standard allows for a very wide range, but requires that a dog be GOLD. 

There is very little difference, in reality, from the color requirements in the different standards, only how they are interpreted by individual judges. Interesting to me is that there is more hubub raised about light dogs than dark. As I have said, I prefer a medium gold, but appreciate a good dog of any color, as long as it still is a _lustrous shade of GOLD. _Not white, nor brown/mahogony, but GOLD. I don't understand the desire to change our standard to parallel a Euopean one; we don't ask them to change theirs to fit ours. I don't begrudge anyone preferring English over American, but I feel that they need to respect the fact that as we are in the US states, an "American style" of dog is likely going to be preferred. And it is not simply about color. There are plenty of judges who will put up an "English" dog. Seek them out and enter to them, we all know that's part of the game - not too many exhibitors, particularly in today's economic climate, are going to enter a dog to a judge that they know won't like it, "American" or otherwise. 


Here is a comparison between the US and UK standards, with the Canadian standard being somewhat a combination of the two.

http://www.brightongoldens.com/AboutGoldens.html


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

and this is the reason that most of us with more European lines show up in Canada where they are much more open to the different type. On any given day you might see an American style dog win or an English dog win or whatever.... its nice to see variety....


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## Estuko (Dec 29, 2008)

Some pictures of Kit's golden., Malibu.


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

Thanks 
Keep in mind he is only about 5mo old.


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## Judi (Feb 26, 2007)

I would love a red Golden.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Estuko said:


> Some pictures of Kit's golden., Malibu.


What a cutie!

I'm totally partial to the "fieldier looking" Goldens. Just a preference. To my inexperienced, non-conformation eye, I'd say your pup isn't the "type" that you'll see in the show ring. I also think he might be a bit too straight in the rear. (More experienced people, please correct me if I'm wrong).

That said - if he's still in tact and you want to go learn about conformation, take a class, learn how to handle your dog and have the experience of showing him, so long as he doesn't possess any DQing faults, go for it for the experience.

I personally have way more fun in the "performance" sports like obedience, agility, hunt tests, dock jumping, etc. Might want to do a bit of research on those, too!

Most of all, enjoy your pup!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree with what FQ said... and I freakin' LOVE your tile... lol


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

Oh I definitely want to get him into field and dock jumping. Agility is a possibility. The main reason for my interest in showing was from a class my girlfriend and I went to last weekend (she wants to show her greater swiss).


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

KitFox1011 said:


> Oh I definitely want to get him into field and dock jumping. Agility is a possibility. The main reason for my interest in showing was from a class my girlfriend and I went to last weekend (she wants to show her greater swiss).


So take the class with your GF. Malibu will love it, he will get socialization, you will be bonding with your dog. It is ALL GOOD and won't hurt anything. Who cares if Malibu ever steps foot in a conformation ring?
And at 5 months is NOT the time to evaluate the conformation of a dog. Let him grow up and make that assessment then. Have fun now!


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

Thats what I figure... If anything it will teach him to walk alongside me. Im making topics in a couple of other threads seeking some local help to get me started in some of the sports im interested in.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Here is a comparison between the US and UK standards, with the Canadian standard being somewhat a combination of the two.
> 
> http://www.brightongoldens.com/AboutGoldens.html


Thanks Laura! what a great site, seems as though my Blush fits better in the English category (she is 100% american...) yet another reason she will be spayed this Friday!


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> .. and I freakin' LOVE your tile... lol


ROFL Only you Jenna!!! :roflmao: I've noticed beer in the background sometimes, but not the tile---you're hilarious!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

ha well, it's perfect dog hair hiding tile... LOL yeah I always notice beer. But now that I'm in nesting mode, I notice tile.


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

the only problem is the color is also perfect for hiding pee... unless the light is angled right, its **** near impossible to see without you actually looking for it.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I just want to chime in to the comment by Ambika I think.... at 5 mos. you can't even look at a puppy.... they are geeky and long and straight and ayy yi yi ..... I tend to look at my dogs at five months... long enough to put a bag over their heads... very few pups grow up like my Emmett or Meghan did what I like to call "in one piece" .... If you are considering showing at all you should have someone evaluate your pup around a year - 18 mos. and then depending on how slow your pup is to mature you may be able to see more about what your pup is "growing into" 

I have a pup right now (a flat coat) who at 20 mos. still looks like a big ole daddy long legs geek.... he is gorgeous but will likely be four before he sets a paw in that ring. 

Regardless... Malibu is a cutey


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## BIGDAWG (Sep 28, 2008)

KitFox1011 said:


> the only problem is the color is also perfect for hiding pee... unless the light is angled right, its **** near impossible to see without you actually looking for it.



... or maybe stepping in it :yuck:!


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## BIGDAWG (Sep 28, 2008)

Shalva said:


> I just want to chime in to the comment by Ambika I think.... at 5 mos. you can't even look at a puppy.... they are geeky and long and straight and ayy yi yi ..... I tend to look at my dogs at five months... long enough to put a bag over their heads... very few pups grow up like my Emmett or Meghan did what I like to call "in one piece" .... If you are considering showing at all you should have someone evaluate your pup around a year - 18 mos. and then depending on how slow your pup is to mature you may be able to see more about what your pup is "growing into"
> 
> I have a pup right now (a flat coat) who at 20 mos. still looks like a big ole daddy long legs geek.... he is gorgeous but will likely be four before he sets a paw in that ring.
> 
> Regardless... Malibu is a cutey



I disagree:sorry:. Nygel had his Canadian Championship the week before he turned one (including a five point day under an American judge when he was 10 months old). I think it all depends on the rate at which dogs mature and the amount of time you put into working with your dog to get them ready. Oh, it also helps to have an amazing breeder.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

BIGDAWG said:


> I disagree:sorry:. Nygel had his Canadian Championship the week before he turned one (including a five point day under an American judge when he was 10 months old). I think it all depends on the rate at which dogs mature and the amount of time you put into working with your dog to get them ready. Oh, it also helps to have an amazing breeder.


Every bloodline, and individuals within a bloodline, are different. I have had dogs that absolutely held together and were balanced the entire time they were growing, and have had others who I prayed would not have zits in the morning - they looked like geeky fourteen year old boys. Lyric earned her first BOB over 11 specials at 9 mos old. My Graham remained beautifully balanced even during what would normally be a "geeky" phase, and at 7 mos, Tommy is still looking wonderful. Interestingly, the dog that the was _the _geekiest was sired by an English import - Camrose Betimmy. And, Drummer was _red, _although Timmy was very light. Our Rossbourne Sabre In Love, also an English import, was quite unbalanced until he was just over a year. And he was moderately to severely dysplastic, first diagnosed at 10 months (although he remained asymptomatic for his entire life.).


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

BIGDAWG said:


> I disagree:sorry:. Nygel had his Canadian Championship the week before he turned one (including a five point day under an American judge when he was 10 months old). I think it all depends on the rate at which dogs mature and the amount of time you put into working with your dog to get them ready. Oh, it also helps to have an amazing breeder.



Your pup grew up in one piece.... but like pointgold said it depends on the pup and the lines and how the dog matures.... 

I could work my heart out but my daddy long legs is not going to turn into a show pup anytime soon... Is he gorgeous absolutely and will he do well someday without a doubt... but right now he is geeky and slow to mature... but darn it he can free stack like a pro and he gaits beautifully .... but he is just to immature... 

looking at Malibu (who I was referring to when I said to have her evaluted at a year to 18 mos).... well she is adorable... and wehther she will or won't be a show dog remains to be seen.... but I just don't see that puppy coming around in 4-5 mos. if she develops enough to be a show dog and they want to show her... that particular puppy seems like she is going to take a while... and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

I have several dogs I have finished out of the puppy classes.... and luckilly they have stayed put together into adulthood.... but at the same time I know of several puppies that have done great as puppies of ten and eleven months and have fallen apart as adults.... and if put in the ring as adults would probably never get a point.... 

I personally don't see what the hurry is.... a dog that looks good at ten months will only look better as adults .... 

I put my youngsters in for learning only.... to get used to the environment... to get used to be handled by a stranger and a judge... but to me... there is no hurry.... 

and I am not so sure that I would qualify an amazing breeder based on how fast a dog matures or doesn't... 


s


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## BIGDAWG (Sep 28, 2008)

The speed of maturity is not what I was referring to when I said an amazing breeder. I simply meant that our breeder has dogs with superior bloodlines and produces some very good show dogs.:yes:


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I've also seen awesome looking pups in the show ring who at 2-3 years of age don't look as good. Bender looked great at a year and got a few points or dumped, then at 3 got group placements and finished in a weekend. Storee looks good but needs some coat and width before she would go in the ring. 

I like the sports stuff a lot better anyway, chances are when she's ready I'll hand the leash off for conformation. 

Lana


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

Thats not a bad idea there... Ill do the sporty stuff with him, since im less interested in conformation and let the girlfriend do all that, which is what shes into with her greater swiss.
Just need to find a place around here that can help me out. Already found a place thanks to Murphy for the agility.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

KitFox1011 said:


> Whats an example of a Golden being too dark?
> The girlfriend took me to a conformation lesson and kind of sparked my interest. Im not sure if Malibu would be too dark though. Don't want to go through all the effort just to get DQ'd because hes too dark.
> 
> Anyone have some picture examples of what would be too dark?


Hello again! There are quite a few show breeders (and even more dog fanciers) that are in the area (Vermont). Before you jump in too deeply I'd suggest that you have someone evaluate your dog...

Do you have him on a full registration? Dogs sold on limited registration are not eligible to participate in conformation shows...but they can show in obedience, rally, tracking, agility and the field/hunt events...

I'll also direct you to the GMGRC club (www.gmgrc.org)- there are a lot of us that work our dogs in many venues - all of the AKC venues...don't think we have any dock divers though 

Erica


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> So take the class with your GF. Malibu will love it, he will get socialization, you will be bonding with your dog. It is ALL GOOD and won't hurt anything. Who cares if Malibu ever steps foot in a conformation ring?
> And at 5 months is NOT the time to evaluate the conformation of a dog. Let him grow up and make that assessment then. Have fun now!


I agree with what Hank said - 5 months is NOT at all the time to look at your golden from a structure perspective. I have seen some really gorgeous puppies go through this stage that I wondered if someone had switched them - MAN they were UGLY - and after ugly they went into this funky mode. At 18 months or so they sorted themselves out and were stunning adults.

Spring is the season for matches - go to a few and see if you like the game. It's unlikely to run into the ultra-competitive and somewhat rude "crowd" at matches - there's just nothing at stake...

Erica


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

KitFox1011 said:


> Anyone have some picture examples of what would be too dark?


This dog would be too dark for some folks but he finished his American and Canadian Championships completely novice owner handler. His dad was Kirby another successful darker Golden show dog.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Apologies to the OP but back to Laura's link on British and Ameircan Standards:

It seems to me that the British goldens with almost white fur seem to have saggier eyes and always look very old to me. Even when they are a very young dog. Is this a look they are striving for?
I don't find it attractive at all and think it may be unhealthy. 
And I am not insulting anyone specically who has a white golden.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

KitFox1011 said:


> Thats not a bad idea there... Ill do the sporty stuff with him, since im less interested in conformation and let the girlfriend do all that, which is what shes into with her greater swiss.
> Just need to find a place around here that can help me out. Already found a place thanks to Murphy for the agility.


 
Please, let him gain maturity before undertaking any performance sports. You need to make sure that he is structurally and physically capable of handling it. Attempting to do "sporty stuff" with him before he is physically ready to can cause long reaching damage. In the meantime, work on obedience/manners training, and most of all, enjoy him.


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

We think Malibu's a mix of american and english. Like I said before, ill still go to the classes, if not in support of the gf, it would be good to teach Malibu to walk alongside me.
Took him for a nice long run not too long ago in the snow and sleet. It was pretty fun when he wasnt wasnt making me ski in my boots


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Be careful running in snow, sleet, etc. Right now he's growing by leaps and bounds and you need to be very careful of his joints.

The same goes for NOT jumping up for frisbees....tennis balls...or over any agility equipment. Eighteen to two years of age is usually when you can begin that stuff. They're, in essence, "grown" (although not filled out yet), and the growth plates are solid.

A five month old can be shown in a ring .... for puppies. There are different age classifications so that IF you want to enter and see what's what...you can. However, once the dog hits 18 mos of age, you're competing against full grown males. That can be a challenge, an you might find you'll want to wait a year or so, for him to mature so he CAN compete.

I'd suggest going to the local GRCA and getting some training for ring work, and some evaulating from knowledgable people in the breed. A mentor can be very valuable for you, and you'll learn so much about showing...as well as other competitive events.

IMO, he looks like a Fieldy type. But it's very hard to tell at this age. You might just find that he's perfect for Hunt Tests and Field Trials, and THAT's something you can start training for right now.

Remember, Goldens are actually Golden RETRIEVERS (or are supposed to be). That's their job...that's what they were bred for....and that's why they exist. So, if he can retrieve....he's exactly what he's supposed to be, whether he does well in a show ring or not.

Good luck with him! He's a handsome boy!


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## KitFox1011 (Dec 24, 2008)

I guess I didnt really mean running, we was switched between a light jog and a brisk walk.
I've been doing some thinking and I dont really want to do conformation. It just doesnt interest me. Ill still go to the classes, like I said if anything to teach him how to walk beside me and socialization.
I do however want to get him into some of the other sports; notably agility and field trials.


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