# Anyone see this GR pit bull attack on the news this morning?



## RobT (Apr 24, 2013)

So sad. I'm not a fan of pit bulls, but I wonder how any pit bull owner can let their dog grow into that kind of monster. They don't have to be horrible dogs, but it seems that many pit bull owners have a predisposition toward that.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

RobT said:


> So sad. I'm not a fan of pit bulls, but I wonder how any pit bull owner can let their dog grow into that kind of monster. They don't have to be horrible dogs, but it seems that many pit bull owners have a predisposition toward that.


I agree with the highlighted. It is the owner's not the dog's fault!


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

that is definitely one of the newer types of attacks I've read (running into a home of another dog). No doubt both dogs will be euthanized and the owner should have charges pressed against them.


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## Isaac (Aug 31, 2012)

Agreed! It is super angering to hear stories like that, but as with all dogs, the problem is the owner. I grew up with an American Staffordshire Terrier who was the sweetest pup I'd ever met (though I hadn't met any goldens yet). Terriers aren't the most easy to train, but even a clueless owner can prevent them from becoming randomly violent. A big part of that is running interference and never letting them get into a bad situation. Just as a golden will chase a ball, a pit bill will attack small animals. They just do what we bred them for.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Okay my first love is the American Pit Bull Terrier so to blame the dog really upsets me. These dogs are special they need an owner that will train the dogs but with this breed everyone that owns one needs to remember is that they are Dog Aggressive. I dont know how many times I have read about pit bull owners taking their dogs to dog parks or saying they have the best dog its 7mos old I have no trouble with it. You try to tell them that most pit bulls do NOT show DA until they are mature which happens at about 24mos of age. 
The other thing that angers me is the fact that ALL these dogs that attack are called pit bulls when in fact if you look at the dog it isnt a pit bull at all. Unfortunately I can view this article on this computer but just because the dog has a blocky head does not a APBT make.


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## PrincessDi (Jun 8, 2009)

That link isn't working. And again it's the debate about how it's not the breed. Two stories today and it's not the breed:uhoh:


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I'd say the dog is "special" if it is dog aggressive and kills a Golden after busting into the dog's home. Ridiculous. These dogs should not be in neighborhoods. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## starshine (Aug 31, 2008)

Even though I am not the biggest fan of these breeds nor am I of german shepherds ... BUT I am absolutely convinced that it is in the entire responsibility of all those breeders out there and of course of the owners! If I call myself a responsible breeder it is MY responsibility to carefully chose the dogs that are to be bred in the first place.. after that I HAVE to make sure the puppies get the best start into their lives they can get -including socialising and getting used to all kinds of every day situations... and when it's time to let them go to their new homes I AM RESPONSIBLE to chose the right people AND therefore HAVE to also tell people NO if they don't seem responsible enough to own such a dog (btw - these are the rules for ALL breeders of any breed in this entire world!) ... so it all starts with a responsible breeder - and of course goes on and ends with a responsible owner ....
therefore - it's not the breed that is to blame - it's the people behind all of it!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

These dogs have been over bred. This is what happens when you put any 2dogs together just for profit.
Pit bulls are dog-aggressive. Even the biggest pit bull advocates will say to never trust a pit around other dogs. They also push knowing how to use a bully stick to break up a fight.

But, dog aggression and human aggression are 2 different things. The original intent if this dog was to never be human aggressive. In fact in the old fight rings any dog that showed human aggression was culled from the lines since humans needed to be able to care for the injured dogs.
Today's pit bulls have been so carelessly bred that we are seeing the aggressive dogs of today-just like we are starting to see aggressive goldens. 

Also, about the attacks in the news these days. In my area it is almost always dogs owned by thugs in a big city. Or "family" dogs that spent 24/7 on a chain in the backyard. It never seems to be the dog in the suburb that gets walked daily.

Also, you know the difference in the breed when the media talks about a "pit bull attack" vs a "dog attack". When a different breed is responsible, it's only reported as a dog attack.

In ABQ, they tried BSL and it didn't pass. Instead they passed a law saying if you have a dog with a "PRIOR" history of aggression you have to carry extra insurance and can be severely prosecuted for any future issues. Plus, they made it illegal to keep a dog on a chain.

A bigger connection to all of these attacks seems to be chained dogs. It's been pretty well proven that chained dogs can be more aggressive.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

This is one of the more informative sites I've ever come across about pit bulls.
Breed History | BAD RAP

I'm personally not a pit bull fan, I gravitate towards the bird dog styles of dogs!
But, I'm a big believer that the problem is due to the owners/breeders.
I would say these dogs and many MANY other breeds of dogs are not for first time owners. I think it does take a special person to be able to raise these guys correctly.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I hear about Pits attacking dogs, sometimes killing them and also people too often.

Two attacked a Lab on the OBX a few years ago, the dog died from it's injuries. The owner has been working to get laws in my state changed. 

http://northeast-nc.legalexaminer.c...-hawk-north-carolina-nc-.aspx?googleid=259826


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

> This incident involved an attack on a Labrador, but it could have been a child instead.


I don't know if these dogs were indeed human aggressive, but statements like these in the media just go to link the two in people's minds. I have a lab/beagle mix that is very dog aggressive if he is on a leash. I guess some people see that and assume he would attack them as well?
Dog aggression is in no way an indication of human aggression.

I have to applaud this man though on trying to change the laws about giving the dogs back to the owner. He's not trying to ban the breed, which is many people's initial reaction. 

And I'll be the first to admit, if I ever experienced this personally, I might change my tune. Emotions are harder to think rationally through.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

In more pit bull news this morning:
Vicktory Dog Lucas Passes Away | Life With Dogs

One of Michael Vick's dogs passed away.
However you feel about the breed, they don't deserve what people do to them


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

These stories only hit the the papers because they involve Pit Bulls, there are hundreds of dog attacks daily but put the name "Pit Bull" on the headline it draws readers. There are aggressive/untrained/abused dogs in every breed or mix. Somehow when our neighbors JRT damaged the eye and took part of our other neighbors 3 years granddaughter it never made the the news. She is now 6 and scared for life. I have a scar on my hand from a cock a poo , my son has a scar from a teacup poodle( named Teabag) he was 4-5 and this dog came across the beach and literally attacked him.
I also agree with General V that many times the dog involved is not even a Pit.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I agree with you Jennifer1, they don't deserve what humans do to them.

I have been amazed at how the Vick Dogs were able to be rehabiliated, some used for Therapy, many adopted, etc. 

It tells me alot about the breed and it also tells me the ones that are agressive, have attacked other dogs and people, is due to what humans have done to them.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> This is one of the more informative sites I've ever come across about pit bulls.
> Breed History | BAD RAP
> 
> I'm personally not a pit bull fan, I gravitate towards the bird dog styles of dogs!
> ...


Of course it's the owners and breeders. These dogs were bred to fight. No different than sporting dogs are bred to hunt. Why anyone would want the responsibility of owning a dog that is literally a time bomb ready to go off is beyond me.


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## ShadowGolden (Sep 4, 2012)

dezymond said:


> that is definitely one of the newer types of attacks I've read (running into a home of another dog). No doubt both dogs will be euthanized and the owner should have charges pressed against them.


It's just awful -this just makes me sad. I found a working link - sounds like one of the attacking dogs was shot at the scene to stop the attack. The other was put down. 

Pit bull attack fatal to 3 dogs, injures man in Absecon - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Atlantic County News


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Barkr said:


> These stories only hit the the papers because they involve Pit Bulls, there are hundreds of dog attacks daily but put the name "Pit Bull" on the headline it draws readers.


So true. Most people don't even know what a true APBT when they see one. They think any lean / stocky / muscular built big square head dog is a Pit when in fact many other breeds look very similar. Let's see how many of you can spot the real Pit on the first try. Don't cheat either. :
*Pet Pitbull - Find the Pit Bull*

It's irresponsible owners that give Pits a bad name. I know several people that have and have had Pits as family dogs for YEARS and they are fine around other dogs, babies, children and other people. Just go on some Pit forums and you will see how loving, caring, devoted the breed really is. Like any other dog it's all how you raise, train and socialize them.


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Of course it's the owners and breeders. These dogs were bred to fight. No different than sporting dogs are bred to hunt. Why anyone would want the responsibility of owning a dog that is literally a time bomb ready to go off is beyond me.


Pit bulls were not bred to fight, some people just decided that they could provide some sick entertainment. Pit bulls were at one time considered the prefect nanny dog because of their loyalty and stability. Media and unscrupulous people have changed this to mean nasty and bloodthirsty. My son has one and he is no time bomb, just a loving companion. We have a muzzle law here and he has to wear one when in public, this make people afraid of him and give me dirty looks like I'm a monster walking a worse monster. Really quite sad. When we take him up north to a private farm and he has no muzzle he smiles the whole time.


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## Amberbark (Oct 5, 2011)

A roaming group of pit bulls mauled a jogger to death recently in Littlerock, CA. When the sheriffs went to a house and confiscated the dogs, then owner said, "Oh, those are not my dogs!" The continuing problem is a combination of the inherent tendencies of the dog breed and irresponsible owners. Owner is an IDIOT.......:no: Vicki

Fatal Calif. pit bull attack probed as possible homicide


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I can't access it!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Barkr said:


> Pit bulls were not bred to fight, some people just decided that they could provide some sick entertainment. Pit bulls were at one time considered the prefect nanny dog because of their loyalty and stability. Media and unscrupulous people have changed this to mean nasty and bloodthirsty. My son has one and he is no time bomb, just a loving companion. We have a muzzle law here and he has to wear one when in public, this make people afraid of him and give me dirty looks like I'm a monster walking a worse monster. Really quite sad. When we take him up north to a private farm and he has no muzzle he smiles the whole time.


But it's not just "some" people who are breeding them to fight. And it has been bred many generations back now. It is very sad, but it is what it is. Your son has a sweet dog but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of pit's are dangerous to other dogs and people. 

As far as the Pits being singled out every time they bite it's most likely because they do the most damage and have the most fatalities. I'm pretty sure if someone was killed by another type of dog they would report what kind of dog it was. The media holds nothing back.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Amberbark said:


> A roaming group of pit bulls mauled a jogger to death recently in Littlerock, CA. When the sheriffs went to a house and confiscated the dogs, then owner said, "Oh, those are not my dogs!" The continuing problem is a combination of the inherent tendencies of the dog breed and irresponsible owners. Owner is an IDIOT.......:no: Vicki
> 
> Fatal Calif. pit bull attack probed as possible homicide


We were watching the morning news a couple weeks back and a reporter was trying to talk to a group of people and the owner let her pits out on the reporter. The reporter was bit. All on camera for everyone to see.


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## Amberbark (Oct 5, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> I can't access it!


Not sure....I held down the "Ctrl" button and then clicked.....let me know if you cant see it and I will post a different url......:wavey: Vicki


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> But it's not just "some" people who are breeding them to fight. And it has been bred many generations back now. It is very sad, but it is what it is. Your son has a sweet dog but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of pit's are dangerous to other dogs and people.
> 
> As far as the Pits being singled out every time they bite it's most likely because they do the most damage and have the most fatalities. I'm pretty sure if someone was killed by another type of dog they would report what kind of dog it was. The media holds nothing back.


Unfortunately the good pits don't get noticed.
It is worth pointing out the pit bulls scored higher in the temperament testing than golden retrievers did.


> *AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER* *870* *755* *115* *86.8%
> *





> *GOLDEN RETRIEVER* *785* *669* *116* *85.2%*


The numbers are #dogs tested/#dogs passed, #dogs failed, % passed
ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.

I am not 100% sure as to how they get these dogs tested. I do know that you can go to scheduled tests and get your dog tested. Obviously the "bad" owners of any breed aren't most likely going to do this. I'm not sure if these statistics only come from people who volunteer to get it done or if any shelter dogs/strays were also included.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I still can't find this, but this is horrible! I used to really dislike pitt bulls over 10 years ago, 
after all, my Lab/GSD mix was attacked by one. They had anti pitt bull legislation in Prince Georges' County where I lived. At the time, I agreed with it. However, over the years I have seen how sweet these dogs can be. My conclusion is that since these dogs have high energy needs, if they are not able to exercise or spend enough time with their owners they could act out aggressively, especially if they are badly bred. These dogs are not for the inexperienced. The reason why there was a ban where I used to live is because of the frequent attacks on children. Here in Virginia, you don't hear as many of those stories, and there is therefore no anti breed legislation here. Could it be that people are more irresponsible in Prince George's county than in Northern Virginia?


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## ShadowGolden (Sep 4, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> I still can't find this, but this is horrible! I used to really dislike pitt bulls over 10 years ago,
> after all, my Lab/GSD mix was attacked by one. They had anti pitt bull legislation in Prince Georges' County where I lived. At the time, I agreed with it. However, over the years I have seen how sweet these dogs can be. My conclusion is that since these dogs have high energy needs, if they are not able to exercise or spend enough time with their owners they could act out aggressively, especially if they are badly bred. These dogs are not for the inexperienced. The reason why there was a ban where I used to live is because of the frequent attacks on children. Here in Virginia, you don't hear as many of those stories, and there is therefore no anti breed legislation here. Could it be that people are more irresponsible in Prince George's county than in Northern Virginia?


This link works: Pit Bulls Killed After Attacking Man, Dog | NBC 10 Philadelphia


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> Unfortunately the good pits don't get noticed.
> It is worth pointing out the pit bulls scored higher in the temperament testing than golden retrievers did.
> 
> 
> ...


You can find anything on the internet to try to justify a cause. I will leave it at that.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> Unfortunately the good pits don't get noticed.
> It is worth pointing out the pit bulls scored higher in the temperament testing than golden retrievers did.
> 
> 
> ...


Taking a quick look at this the number of dogs that have been tested for each breed varies a lot. As I recall for American Pit Bull Terrier and Goldens it was in the range of 600 to 800 dogs whose owners chose to have them tested. When you read about the test dogs can fail for showing avoidance, panic or aggression. The test includes among other things requiring the dog to walk the length of an extended xpen laid flat on the ground and seemed to be looking for a dog to protect it's handler from an approaching threatening stranger. All in all it did not convince me that American Pit Bull Terriers have a better temperament than Goldens. As has been pointed out, perhaps in the other thread on a pit bull attack, "pit bull" is not a breed but a term used to apply to American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and mixes of those breeds.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Even some organizations of pit bull owners that advocate for the breed are now recommending that pit bull owners carry around a "bite stick" whenever they take their dogs on walks to bash over the heads with in case they bite someone or something and won't let go. Pure bred pits bulls apparently have jaws that "lock" in such a way that they can not be pried open against the dog's will short of breaking bones, so you have to get the pit bull to willingly let go of a grip, which some pit bull advocate organizations apparently advocate you do by carrying around a stick to hit them with until they are shocked into breaking their bite.

I'd never say all dogs in a given breed are dangerous. You can get a dog who is part of a problematical breed who is the sweetest dog you'll ever meet to everyone they come across, because all dogs are individuals as well as part of their breed and species. It also is extremely common to find pit bulls, rottweilers, etc. who are very sweet to members of their "pack"- i.e. their owners and family and even select family friends they see a lot.

You can also meet some individuals from family friendly breeds who are vicious, because, again, they are individuals. Labradors are a great breed in general, but I had one try to kill my golden retriever on sight. The owner told me the dog was hostile to all other dogs and he didn't want to restrain his dog because he was afraid his own dog would attack him if he did. I wound up grabbing the unknown dog by the collar, it slipped my grasp, and then the two dogs and I all circled each other until the guy finally collected his dog. His dog would lunge in my dog's direction every so often, I'd lunge at the lab, and the lab would back off but keep circling. I'm pretty convinced that my size and my demonstrated willingness to get involved and physically do whatever had to be done to keep that Labrador from hurting my dog is the only thing that prevented that from turning bloody- it was intimidated by me and realized it was outnumbered. And that's a friendly breed by and large.

However, the problem is that in general some breeds have a predisposition to be vicious, even though it never manifests in the majority of the animals who make up the breed. I think some of this comes from genetics. Leaving aside personality traits, one could just look at the fact that, as mentioned, pit bulls have locking jaws that cinch in their bites and Rottweilers have extremely muscular builds like weight lifters. I could probably tackle a Labrador or a Golden if I had to and hold it still if I had to, but there is probably no way I could tackle a Rottweiler and keep it down, it's just too strong a dog. Similarly, I could pry a biting jaw loose from a golden or a lab, but not from a pit bull.

The other thing I notice with some of the more stereotypical aggressive breeds is that they usually seem to have a higher anxiety level. I know a Rottie who's usually very sweet around people and likes me fine (Though he resents my golden and they do not get along). However, I would never approach that Rottweiler from behind or sneak up on him- and if I see him in a yard or something and feel it is too dark for him to see or I'm too far away, I will verbally identify myself. Just my circumstantial observation is that the more aggressive breeds tend to operate at a higher level of adrenaline and be a bit more territorial and protective. You approach a golden retriever and tackle him and often they would assume you are playing, I am not sure a Rottweiler wouldn't bite your head off. They can both be nice dogs, but they need to be handled differently.

I also would just say, though I am not sure how I feel on breed specific bans (I see both sides), the way they are actually implemented really upset me. _If_ a locality implements a ban like that, and I am not saying they should, it ought to be done in a more humane way then simply saying that after such and such a date all dogs in the jurisdiction of that breed will be confiscated and put down. Some of these are beloved family pets who wouldn't hurt a fly. A better approach, if it's decided it has to be done, would to be require that all members of those breeds be registered by a certain date, and that all registered members of the breed are "grandfathered in" and allowed to continue on with their families until the end of the dog's natural life cycle. Perhaps they could also mandate that the registered "dangerous" dogs be neutered, and provide neutering for free. The way these bans are actually implemented sometimes where you just see large piles of dead dogs who have done nothing wrong and who are beloved by their families but have been confiscated, killed, and "put to sleep" is horrific. These bans, _if_ they are necessary for public safety, really need to be done in a more humane way where existing family pets are grandfathered in and allowed to continue. Give it 10 years and eventually a town could be pit bull free without taking away anyone's family pet and slaughtering it. It doesn't have to be either a complete poorly implemented ban like the ones we sometimes see or no restrictions at all. There are in-between solutions that can at least partially address the concerns of all people who are invested on both sides of the issue.


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## GoldenPines (May 23, 2012)

As someone who was attacked pretty badly (8 sutures in the palm of my hand and 3 weeks in an arm sling) by a pit bull I have a different prospective of the breed. I completely agree that the owner is the one who is responsible for the dog, there is no excuse for any dog to be roaming the streets and not being safely contained in their home. The dog who attacked had two wonderful parents who did everything right with him and he couldn't be more loved and well taken care of. But like many Pits, they can snap at anytime with no warning. I am sure not all pit bulls are like this but the sheer damage they are capable of causing, even though they may never use this force, can not be down played or overlooked. As badly injured as I was, I was thankful that it was me and not some child or infant that was attacked as it would have most likely been killed. Any veterinarian will tell you that pit bulls can be great dogs with loving personalities, but they need to be treated with a special kind of respect. What sets the pit apart from say a GSH or Golden is the power and strength of their jaws. That damage is the difference between needing a band-aid versus needing an ER. BTW the owners of the pit who bit me did not euthanize the animal. I couldn't press charges because I work at a vet hospital and under our law its a job hazard that you accept when taking the position. This pit was great 99% of the time and loved kisses and hugs, he was in excellent health at the time this happened and was in a room with his parents just for a routine check up like he has been in so many times and he knew me. There is no excuse for what he did, that level of violence is not acceptable, especially in a healthy dog. The fact that there was no warning is what is scariest for me. I have seen this happen several times before and after in my career and they usually give no warning before a major attack. My point being that to try to portray the breed as being born as a clean slate and that the owners are 100% in charge of his behavior and how he acts is ridiculous. DNA, instinct, those are things every living thing possess and the pit bull is no different. Can you imagine what is in store for the breed from the decades of irresponsible breeders that are openly breeding aggressive more powerful pits?


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

ShadowGolden said:


> It's just awful -this just makes me sad. I found a working link - sounds like one of the attacking dogs was shot at the scene to stop the attack. The other was put down.
> 
> Pit bull attack fatal to 3 dogs, injures man in Absecon - pressofAtlanticCity.com: Atlantic County News


So sad!


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> In more pit bull news this morning:
> Vicktory Dog Lucas Passes Away | Life With Dogs
> 
> One of Michael Vick's dogs passed away.
> However you feel about the breed, they don't deserve what people do to them


I love stories about Pit Bulls being rescued from dog fighting rings. I have seen some stories on Animal Planet. Sadly, in some episodes of Animal Cops for instance the shelter puts down all of the pit bulls for being "unadoptable" due to being involved in fighting. It could be because they lack the resources to rehab these dogs or to find the perfect owners. At least let them live out their days in a sanctuary. I enjoyed Pit Boss (Love Hurcules) until I got tired of Shorty's short temper. I also enjoy Pit Bulls and Paroles, giving dogs and ex-cons a second chance by helping each other.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> Even some organizations of pit bull owners that advocate for the breed are now recommending that pit bull owners carry around a "bite stick" whenever they take their dogs on walks to bash over the heads with in case they bite someone or something and won't let go. Pure bred pits bulls apparently have jaws that "lock" in such a way that they can not be pried open against the dog's will short of breaking bones, so you have to get the pit bull to willingly let go of a grip, which some pit bull advocate organizations apparently advocate you do by carrying around a stick to hit them with until they are shocked into breaking their bite.
> 
> .



I'm sorry but this is factually WRONG. And one of many MYTHS out there.
First, the bite stick (break stick) is not to bash them over the head. It is to pry open their jaw-see below.
Second, their jaws DO NOT LOCK. They actually do not even have a stronger bite than other dogs. They fight differently. Many breeds of dogs fight with lots of snapping of the teeth and jumping around, it's usually looks/sounds worse than it is. They bite, bite, and bite again. The pit bull bites and holds on. The jaw doesn't lock and it's not that they have more bite strength, they have more willpower! It's also why they do more damage. I believe (not 100% sure) this is actually true of all of the terrier breeds.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

This is a break stick











> What Is a Break Stick?
> A break stick is a device inserted into the mouth of a pit bull (behind the molars) to facilitate the release of its grip on another dog.
> Remember: pit bulls do not have a special mechanism or enzyme that allows them to "lock” their jaw, nor do they possess a higher than average “bite pressure.” They simply have the determination of a terrier.
> Not all pit bulls are aggressive toward other dogs. But because the breed has a somewhat higher tendency for dog aggression, break sticks are useful tools to have in a multi-dog household. Please read the following guidelines before attempting to break up a fight using a break stick.


Pit Bull Rescue Central


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

TheZ's said:


> Taking a quick look at this the number of dogs that have been tested for each breed varies a lot. As I recall for American Pit Bull Terrier and Goldens it was in the range of 600 to 800 dogs whose owners chose to have them tested. When you read about the test dogs can fail for showing avoidance, panic or aggression. The test includes among other things requiring the dog to walk the length of an extended xpen laid flat on the ground and seemed to be looking for a dog to protect it's handler from an approaching threatening stranger. All in all it did not convince me that American Pit Bull Terriers have a better temperament than Goldens. As has been pointed out, perhaps in the other thread on a pit bull attack, "pit bull" is not a breed but a term used to apply to American Pit Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, and mixes of those breeds.


It clearly states, that it does not test the aggressiveness of any breed, but only the individual dog.
I think the numbers for pits and goldens were close enough and large enough to get good data from. There were some rare breeds with only 4 or 5 dogs tested, I don't think that would give good stats.
The way I read the testing is that only a dog trained in shutzhund would be passed for lunging at a scary stranger. A different dog, not trained in protection would fail. And I don't believe any dog-dog interactions are tested.

I do think it would be more interesting to see the results from a big humane society study, because this would have some built in bias by the nature of which dogs get tested.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

nevermind, I'm stepping away from this thread


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

When you have to use a special tool to pry open a dogs mouth to stop them from killing someone speaks volumes. Obviously that is a strong hold, whether they lock their jaws or not.

I read the study. You are correct the majority of aggressive pits will not be in that study. They already know they are aggressive.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> When you have to use a special tool to pry open a dogs mouth to stop them from killing someone speaks volumes. Obviously that is a strong hold, whether they lock their jaws or not.
> 
> I read the study. You are correct the majority of aggressive pits will not be in that study. They already know they are aggressive.


Please don't misquote me.......
I said the bad owners of any breed wouldn't do it. I specifically said ANY BREED.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jennifer1 said:


> I'm sorry but this is factually WRONG. And one of many MYTHS out there.
> First, the bite stick (break stick) is not to bash them over the head. It is to pry open their jaw-see below.
> Second, their jaws DO NOT LOCK.


I stand corrected. I looked it up and their jaws technically do not lock, although...






And:

Pit Bull FAQ - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org

From:

Pit Bull FAQ - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org

Pro-pit bull myths debunked:

Pit Bull Myths - Dangerous Dogs - DogsBite.org

Still, having posted all that, I am not coming out against pit bulls as a breed or saying they need to all be euthanized or anything like that. There are even some circumstances where I could see having a pit bull as a pet (I'm poor, people give them away for free constantly, they do have a nice look to them, some of them are actually very nice dogs, probably great guard dogs and theft deterrents, etc.), though I don't plan to (I prefer goldens and similar breeds).

What I am saying is that pit bulls are distinctively different from some other dog breeds and need to be approached, handled, and trained in different ways. It also might be acceptable to have some breed specific legislation that applies to them, though I do not agree with euthanizing a family pet who has not done anything wrong under any circumstances (But a ban that grandfathers in existing pets and imposes other reasonable restrictions on pit bulls that don't cause financial hardship for their owners might be acceptable).


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Quoting Dogsbite about pitbulls is like quoting Rush Limbaugh about liberals


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Is there a way to block a thread the way you can block people? I need to walk away from this but can't seem to.....


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jennifer1 said:


> Quoting Dogsbite about pitbulls is like quoting Rush Limbaugh about liberals


You make a fair point when you suggest that that site probably does represent an extreme point of view.

The impression I get in general when it comes to pit bull controversies is that you have two extreme points of view butting heads with each other and both are to some degree warped and don't completely represent reality. Some would have us believe pit bulls are all kind gentle dogs who only differ from golden retrievers or labradors because of the shape of their bodies, the texture of their fur, etc.. Others would have us believe that all pit bulls are killing machines without any redeeming qualities.

My impression has been that pit bulls are a breed that in generalized terms has a greater disposition towards being able and willing to cause harm to other animals and to human beings than some other dog breeds and thus require a greater degree of training and control, but that many individual pit bulls can be fairly gentle well-adjusted souls, and that it is wrong to automatically assume any pit bull you see is dangerous or that they can't make good pets if you get the right dog and the right circumstances. A statement like that usually ticks off both sides of the argument, but that's what I perceive the reality as being. People's mileage will, of course, vary, and can often be shaped by personal experiences they've had pro or con, and the experiences they've heard about from friends or relatives.

On a side note, I've always thought some pit bulls have a very regal appearance and are cute dogs. I passed someone walking her pit bulls while walking somewhere with a couple of people I know and complimented her on their appearance and one of my associates turned to me and said something like "Are you kidding me?". Beauty, like many things, is in the eye of the beholder.

Anyhow, I wouldn't mind a balanced legislative approach to pit bulls. The bans and mass killings of pit bulls bother me immensely. On the other hand, I am not sure it is wise to have no special rules apply to the breed and would not join a fight against _all_ breed specific legislation either. I think there's a middle ground to be had here that can recognize that, yes, pit bulls can often make good pets that pose no danger to anyone, and that keeps family pets in their homes, but that at the same time recognizes there is a predisposition there in a general sense for the breed and certain elements of their build and whatnot that can make them do more damage if some individuals are in fact dangerous, and that there could be some reasonable controls put in place for that.

The two sides pulling against each other with positions so apart doesn't create much room for common sense compromises, and so we wind up with a weird patchwork where in some areas pit bulls are completely illegal and euthanized on sight, even beloved gentle family pets, and other areas where they are treated no differently from any other dog, with no special rules applying to them at all, and where some dogs might represent an unnecessary danger to their communities. It'd be nice if people could get together and hammer out something that works for everyone.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I was walking with my friend in her neighborhood, and a Labrador that's chained up all day, somehow got loose and charged at my other friend that was along. He had a pretty bad bite. Everybody I've talked to that's against Pits always brings up stories they heard of, that really frustrates me. And the many Pits in my neighborhood are chained as well. They don't get a chance. But the few that are very well taken care of and get the exercise they need, are absolutely wonderful dogs.

My dogs have been attacked by a Pug and two Shih Tzus. My Aunt has two kids and a baby, she has a Pit. Alot of folks say it's going to "turn on them." I don't believe dogs bite out of the blue.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> Unfortunately the good pits don't get noticed.
> It is worth pointing out the pit bulls scored higher in the temperament testing than golden retrievers did.
> 
> 
> ...


I noticed that the sample sizes vary greatly. Wouldn't this affect the accuracy of these tests?


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> I noticed that the sample sizes vary greatly. Wouldn't this affect the accuracy of these tests?


Yes, breeds with 10-20 dogs probably wouldn't be great results. When you get into 100s of dogs, those statistics should hold. The number of dogs in 1 breed won't effect the results of a different breed though.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I would like to see them break it down and show exactly what they failed at. A golden who failed because they were scared of gunshots and perhaps an umbrella is not going to need a stick to pry it's mouth open. Perhaps a test strictly on aggression would hold more water.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I really liked this video. Plus I love kikopup!


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## texy85 (May 11, 2012)

I think it comes down to the over breeding of dogs. I know in the United States, especially the south, the pit bull is a popular dog and is usually in high demand. Because of this there is probably a lot of over breeding and the breeding of questionable dams and sires. I don't think it is fair to stereo-type a breed because of this. 

Here in Canada, you usually hear of attacks from sledding dog breeds. Not to long ago there was a Husky who killed a newborn baby. The city I lived in used to have a bylaw on Pit Bulls, you had to keep your pit muzzled while in public, had to be restrained while in the backyard and you had to have a $1 million dollar liability plan on the dog. After research and from help with big wig at our humane society, the bylaw was lifted here recently. If you adopt an american, staffordshire etc terrier from the humane society, you have to sign up to take special classes to learn how to train your dog properly. Even if you don't adopt from the humane society, they still offer classes to people who own this breed. 

Here is study that was done here in Canada.
Fatal dog attacks in Canada, 1990

Here is a recent story out of Surrey, BC where a Rottweiler and a Golden Retriever killed a Shih Tzu. 
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Selfish+owners+blamed+deadly+attack+Surrey/8572262/story.html

Just because there are myths and stories out there, don't stereo-type. Who says a golden retriever couldn't be trained to the point of having to pry open its mouth??

ETA: Here is a another story of a Golden Retriever attacking a person:
http://www.nbc12.com/story/21752552/chesterfield-woman-hospitalized-after-golden-retriever-attack


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

dgmama, there are dogs that do indeed bite out of the blue. My angel golden Cody and I were walking on legally off leash open space, playing fetch with a tennis racquet and tennis ball. A pit bull (Baby was a purebred pit who we had "known" from walking in the same place for FOUR YEARS) was 1/4 mile away in the same open space. She put her head up, saw Cody going for a ball and came charging. It was clear to me from her trajectory that she wasn't going for the ball, she was going for him, which turned out to be horrifically true. Her owner, while an idiot, did nothing to make this dog aggressive and is in fact a true Boulderian, peace and love all around. Owner starts sauntering over while Baby has an unbreakable grip on Cody's throat. I picked up her hind legs wheelbarrow style, trying to pull her off of him. No luck. While holding her legs up, I pulled back one of my legs and kicked that dog hard enough to shatter a kidney. Don't know if I did and don't care. Only then did her owner come running, screaming "don't you dare kick Baby". Really? I took my dog to the vet, but not before telling the idiot (in no uncertain terms using no uncertain language) that I would be sure to have her dog euthanized if I ever saw her off leash anywhere in my town again.

We had walked next to the this dog on many occasions over the course of four years. Not once did I ever see this dog attack another dog. Every now and again, I'd see some body language from her that made me a little nervous, but nothing that would make me give her a wide berth. I have since seen (not met, seen in action) three pit bulls whose owners claim their dogs have never been dog aggressive viciously go after other dogs who did not instigate the attack. So, despite having met a number of people-loving pitties, I will never believe anyone who says that dogs don't attack out of the blue. They can, they do and other dogs may die as a result! I'm with Bentley's Mom, if you have a breed that may be inherently dog aggressive, it should not be off leash anywhere anytime!


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

My question is, would it have still made the news if it was a Golden Retriever (or other "friendly" breed) that killed another dog ?

People need to be more responsible with their animals, period.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I completely understand why some feel that dogs bite out of the blue, so I'm just going to agree to disagree.
I remember pinning this on pinterest a while back, I always try to watch a dogs body language, especially if offleash since I have plenty of irresponsible neighbors. There have been a couple times where I have had to walk back home because of loose dogs, and don't want to chance anything. It's already taken awhile for Ginger to get back to her normal self after two Shih Tzus charged at her, they are very protective of their property.


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## lestat1978 (Oct 9, 2012)

Ivan, while a puppy, leashed, standing at my side, and with his hiking backpack on, was attacked by an off leash, male Golden Retriever, Bentley. His owner, by the time he caught up, couldn't pull him off. Male members I was hiking with punched the dog and he wouldn't let go. I came very close to poking his eye out and he didn't let go. Finally, he let go on his own. Not because anyone could make him.

Also, just to elaborate on another point. When volunteering with a Doberman rescue, all the members were given a copy of An Hour with Patrick - The Pit Bull written by Jeff Coltenback. If I recall, don't have the book in front of me, he pointed out how skewed dog bite statistics are. One Poodle bite equals one Poodle bite. One Chi bite equals one Chi bite. One American Pit Bull Terrier bite equals one Pit Bull bite. One American Staffordshire Terrier bite equals one Pit Bull bite. 

And considering the sheer number of people I have met that had no idea what natural Dobermans looked like (Is that a Greyhound?) or that they came in dilute colors, I don't trust people reporting what breed of dog was involved. I constantly read about Miniature Dobermans. Nope, sorry, Miniature Pinschers are a completely separate breed.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Ninde'Gold said:


> My question is, would it have still made the news if it was a Golden Retriever (or other "friendly" breed) that killed another dog ?
> 
> People need to be more responsible with their animals, period.


Yes I believe it would. I also believe it would be in the news if a golden retriever killed a person. And I'm quite confident that once the killings happen they know the actual breed of the dog. They are not playing guessing games when it come to people's deaths.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Yes I believe it would. I also believe it would be in the news if a golden retriever killed a person. And I'm quite confident that once the killings happen they know the actual breed of the dog. They are not playing guessing games when it come to people's deaths.


A 2yr old child was ripped limb from limb by a a Golden / Lab mix. A year later their other child was bitten in the face by their other dog. No mention of the breed?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ling-dog-attack-mcgrew-home-article-1.1237732

And in this link there's no mention of the Golden / Lab mix or the other dog?
McGrew children back in DSS custody after latest dog bite | News | Berkeley County News


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## texy85 (May 11, 2012)

I also posted a couple links back on page 5 of golden retriever attacks....


ETA: Here is another story:
http://www.thestar.com/news/2007/03/13/child_attacked_by_golden_retriever.html


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

RichsRetriever said:


> A 2yr old child was ripped limb from limb by a a Golden / Lab mix. A year later their other child was bitten in the face by their other dog. No mention of the breed?
> Family dog attacks child of South Carolina parents whose infant son was killed by another pooch last year - NY Daily News
> 
> And in this link there's no mention of the Golden / Lab mix or the other dog?
> McGrew children back in DSS custody after latest dog bite | News | Berkeley County News


Obviously this is a child abuse case and not a random dog attack. But yes they did mention golden/lab mix.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

Also why there are so many cases involving Pit Bulls is because of what their owners turn them into. You can't expect much from a dog who's been chained and abused its entire life.

In my area I hardly ever see a well taken care of Pit Bull. The majority don't get a chance and are just for the owner to look cool and tough. It's disgusting what they have to go through.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

dgmama said:


> Also why there are so many cases involving Pit Bulls is because of what their owners turn them into. You can't expect much from a dog who's been chained and abused its entire life.
> 
> In my area I hardly ever see a well taken care of Pit Bull. It's disgusting what they have to go through.


In my experience they chain them up so they can't escape the yard. We have 2 in our neighborhood who went right thru their wood fence to get to the dog next door. They are chained now.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

dgmama said:


> Also why there are so many cases involving Pit Bulls is because of what their owners turn them into. You can't expect much from a dog who's been chained and abused its entire life.
> 
> In my area I hardly ever see a well taken care of Pit Bull. The majority don't get a chance and are just for the owner to look cool and tough. It's disgusting what they have to go through.


I was about to post pretty much the same thing a few pages back but didn't. I bet if "Pits" were raised in homes like so many GRs are on this forum these types of attacks wouldn't be happening.


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## JayBen (Aug 30, 2012)

Let me clarify where I stand on this. I get angry at the OWNERS of ANY aggressive dog who is irresponsible. I think its great that people rescue these dogs but I think you also need to be aware of what your getting. I realize not all pits are aggressive but I think a lot that are in shelters near large citys _are_ and _are_ bred to fight. I would never be in favor of legislation restricting any dog. I don't care if you want a lion in your house...but you better keep it under control and not have it injure me or my dog. I believe in maximum liberty. But with maximum liberty; maximum responsibility also has to come. From what I've seen in _my area_, a lot (not all) of these pit owners take pride in having a dog that is aggressive and are very irresponsible. I have 3 people on my block that have what looks to be pit bulls to me. The one across the street was a rescue from an abusive home, which is great. This dog is very dog aggressive though. They constantly let this dog out of the front door when the kids go in and out. This is irresponsible and a danger to me and my dog. I have someone who has 3 of them a block away. They will roam free from time to time. 3 houses down I have 3 dogs (one a pit mix). These dogs get out about once a week from their fenced in yard. I've told the owner about it and nothing gets done. I can't even walk my dog around my block without worrying about an aggressive dog charging us. These people need to wake up.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

It's hard to convince those against Pits, so I'll leave this thread with a video from one of my fav trainers.

Victoria Stilwell talks Breed Discrimination - YouTube


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

JayBen said:


> Let me clarify where I stand on this. I get angry at the OWNERS of ANY aggressive dog who is irresponsible. I think its great that people rescue these dogs but I think you also need to be aware of what your getting. I realize not all pits are aggressive but I think a lot that are in shelters near large citys _are_ and _are_ bred to fight. I would never be in favor of legislation restricting any dog. I don't care if you want a lion in your house...but you better keep it under control and not have it injure me or my dog. I believe in maximum liberty. But with maximum liberty; maximum responsibility also has to come. From what I've seen in _my area_, a lot (not all) of these pit owners take pride in having a dog that is aggressive and are very irresponsible. I have 3 people on my block that have what looks to be pit bulls to me. The one across the street was a rescue from an abusive home, which is great. This dog is very dog aggressive though. They constantly let this dog out of the front door when the kids go in and out. This is irresponsible and a danger to me and my dog. I have someone who has 3 of them a block away. They will roam free from time to time. 3 houses down I have 3 dogs (one a pit mix). These dogs get out about once a week from their fenced in yard. I've told the owner about it and nothing gets done. I can't even walk my dog around my block without worrying about an aggressive dog charging us. These people need to wake up.


I hope you take protection with you. That formerly abused dog is a danger to their children too. For the life of me, I don't understand why people with children would adopt an abused dog.

I'm all for adopting dogs, but agree with you -- it's a huge responsibility -- especially with a dog who can do so much damage. If only all people would be responsible owners. Sadly, maximum idiots aren't likely to take maximum responsibility for their pets.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Where's Shorty when you need him?


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

RichsRetriever said:


> Where's Shorty when you need him?


I know right!  And I also agree that most Pit Bulls don't get to experience a life that the Golden Retrievers do here.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

I think this story may epitomize some of the problem with Pits. Was at wedding shower outside. Twenty something child of homeowner was there with her newly rescued pitbulls. She worked in pit bull rescue and saved these dogs from death in the fighting ring and euthanasia at shelter. Dogs were fenced away from guests about 20 feet inside outdoor no top pen. Someone asked about them and she told us about bad rap pitbulls get. What good dogs they were. How goldens had more bite stats etc. 
I told told her I pet sit lots of sweet pits that I loved but even owners were leery about other dog interactions. And how any dog from shelter can be great dog but they need supervision training and some of the more aggressive breeds more intensive training. She basically poopooed me and asked what dogs I had. Golden. She held her tongue thank goodness.
It was about twenty minutes later her 10 year old cousin put his hand out to pet dog and the male pit broke skin on the boys face lunging. 
You cannot champion a breed of dog and then be totally irresponsible in understanding a rescues temperament most especially a fighting dogs temperament. her naivete will have sad consequences one day I fear.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

That goes back to irresponsible owners. If I rescued a dog who had a past of dog fighting, I would never allow a child to stick it's hand out in front of it's face. Parents need to teach their children how to act around dogs. I never reach out to pet a strange dog. Even if it comes up to me I ignore it. People need to be more aware of a dogs body language.
http://www.doggonesafe.com/why_dogs_bite


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

_That goes back to irresponsible owners. If I rescued a dog who had a past of dog fighting, I would never allow a child to stick it's hand out in front of it's face. Parents need to teach their children how to act around dogs. I never reach out to pet a strange dog. Even if it comes up to me I ignore it. People need to be more aware of a dogs body language._

I absolutely agree and that was the point I was trying to make in a very long winded round about manner. Its great to rescue and try to dispel myths that all a certain breed are bad. But if you rescue a dog, especially a dog that's been in the pit, you need to do your homework. If you want to inform people that Pit Bulls aren't the monsters many think they are, then back up the talk with proper experience and knowledge about owning these special dogs. I picture that 90 pound tiny gal and those two large pits on the end of a leash, and I see another tragedy waiting to happen.


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## caroline162 (Jun 11, 2013)

I do think owners play a huge part in this, but I disagree that if pit bulls were raised like a Golden Retrievers they would have the same temperament... dogs WERE bred for different purposes. Just like a herding dog will herd - you can train them that it's inappropriate to herd children, like I did with our Sheltie, but that is still their nature and that instinct will kick in from time to time. Pit bulls have been bred over and over again for fighting. Around where I live many are bred specifically for illegal dog fighting - and their puppies end up in shelters where they are adopted by people who don't understand that. So yes you can raise them right, but that is still part of their make up and they will generally be a greater danger than a Golden Retriever. Add a clueless/careless/abusive/neglectful owner to the mix and you have BAD NEWS. And I'm sorry if it's an un-PC view, but to me most pit bulls are bad news.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

I raised a few Goldens, a Lab, a Shepherd and a Rottie.
I trained them all myself with the same rules and techniques. 
They all turned out to be sweet, very well behaved dogs.
But personally, I do believe, that dog breeds have different ways about them.
For instance: If ever a person play fought with me, around my retrievers, they would jump up and deflect the person with their body, pushing a little and adding to the play. The Shepherd and Rottie would become stiff as boards and VERY serious.

Personality wise, all were fun, full of life, sweet, tolerant, smart, obedient, loyal. But again, the Rottie and Shepherd were just more serious about life than the fun loving Retrievers. Bred to guard. Whereas the Retriever, bred for the hunt. 

They are just different. You can expect the same basic obedience and love from all breeds, but their personality is set in the breed makeup. All great dogs, just different personalities.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I would never want my goldens around a pit bull, I had this conversaion with two trainers,about pit bulls, one had two, the other had one, in the past, there may be some good ones, but they were bred to be what they are, over breeding, people thinking it is the thing to have, all in all I am scared of them.


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## caroline162 (Jun 11, 2013)

One more breed comment - understanding these are generalizations and I am not saying there has never been a gentle pit bull - Goldens are retrievers, meaning they were bred to retrieve a bird without making a mark in it. They were also bred to be friendly to other dogs and people, so they would hunt with, for, and alongside anyone. This means it is in their nature to be gentle and friendly. That doesn't mean there aren't poorly bred overbred Goldens, Goldens who have been so mistreated that their natural tendencies have been replaced with aggression. But as a breed in general, they will never be the fighting dogs that pit bulls are.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

All Pit Bulls are not unpredictably aggressive. The dogs I see chained up in their backyards, if they got the early socialization and lived the way my Goldens do, had their training, I don't see what would make them a dangerous, unpredictable monster.

Like I said, most these dogs don't even get a chance, and when people think of Pit Bulls, they think of an aggressive, fighting machine. When really you can't expect a dog who's been abused and neglected its entire life to behave the same as a well raised one.

Very rarely do I see a Pit, well, even all breeds where I live, well socialized and trained. And then you have those irresponsible owners who never did their research before even getting a dog. My next dog in the future will be a Pit from a shelter, and I am prepared to socialize it, train it the way I train my Goldens, give it the exercise needed, and give it the life it deserves.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

Saw this on pinterest. Haha!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Why do people keep saying a Pit is not for everyone and need a owner that can control them? Really? Could it be because they were bred to fight? I have seen too many reports of babies, dogs and adults killed by these dogs. I think the facts speak for themselves. Of course there are a few exceptions. There always are.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I said this before but I can't help myself and have to say it again.

A well bred pitbull is very friendly and loving to people just like our goldens. What is out there may or may not be a well bred pitbull with the correct temperment. We just don't know if they were bred to their standard or not. They are the popular breed for all the tough guys so people are breeding anything to anything which can turn on a gene or genes to make them not only animal aggressive but also time bombs against people. 

What is really important is that a well bred pitbull with the correct temperment will be small animal aggressive. Most average joe's are in denial about this. This puts all other dog owners at risk if they listen and believe the average joe pit owner.

I am always cautious about all dog interactions with my dog. But I will not have my dog interact with a pit at all. 

I know some very sweet pits. I visit and play with some great pits. I help train some really nice pits. I will not risk my dog because I know a pit should be aggressive with animals and even the nicest friendliest pit when mature may get that component in their make up turned on.

If I had young children I would not let my children interact with pits either as I don't know if the pit is well bred with the correct temperment or just two put together to get the money.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I think it's because of the damage they can do. And even if another dog started a fight, the Pit can easily finish it. There are so many cases because so many Pit Bulls are owned by those who just want a lawn ornament or to look cool. And pretty sure those owners don't put any effort into training or socialization. Most dogs in my neighborhood are Pits, and the majority are chained and abused. There was one I called animal control about because it was so starved and had blood dripping from its mouth. It's not fair or the dogs fault, what do you expect from a dog like that?

Now, I don't care much for Cesar Millan as a dog trainer, but I really liked what he said...
"In the 70's they blamed the Dobermans. In the 80's they blamed German Shepherds. In the 90's they blamed the Rottweiler. Now they blame the Pit Bull. When will they blame the humans?"

Nobody ever hears about the good in the breed, just the bad. Kay well I'm gonna leave the thread, not much else you can say to convince. My sister still believes they have locking jaws. :doh:


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Shorty manages to handle all 7 of his Pits just fine, some are even his personal service dogs that go out in public with him. All 7 that he owns were rescues and I bet many were abused and were breed to be fighters yet not one of them have managed to harm anyone or turn on Shorty after all these years?? He's taken them to schools and nursing homes to volunteer and since a few are service dogs they go everywhere he does in public and not one incident other than getting slobbery hands from their kisses when people want to meet this vicious breed. 

How is this possible??? I don't know...maybe it's because he actually took the time to properly train them and show them love and not just leave them chained up outside and abuse them like many do so they can have the baddest Pit on the block. 

Give these same people that create these killer / fighter Pits a GR and I guarantee you that GR will be a killer / fighter too.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

My neice has a pitt. He is awesome but I still don't 100% trust him. I let him and Sage meet and for the most part it went well. No aggression at all. What struck me was the play style. He would try to take her down and put his mouth on her throat. He didn't hurt her but after the second time doing it I seperated them as I was uncomfortable. We also met a dog at the park who is part pitt...he did the same thing. While they can be wonderful dogs and I don't think we should write off the breed I have decided that I am not comfortable with this and will not take a chance with Sage again. Gabe is still allowed to visit but not allowed off leash when Sage is! My neice understands this as we still include Gabe but she probably thinks I'm over protective...oh well I won't gamble with my dogs safety!

On another note..my daughter in laws mother has a pitt who lives with a pug they get along great but Runt is dog aggressive with other dogs. She got out and attacked their neighbors dog, although they won't admit she did this they do admit she is dog aggressive. Runt would never ever be allowed by me in Sages vicinity....leashed or crated. I am concerened that she will be around my new grandson. They say she is great with kids. I pray Liam doesn't pay the price for their lack of realizing she could do something.....scary!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

solinvictus said:


> What is really important is that a well bred pitbull with the correct temperment will be small animal aggressive. Most average joe's are in denial about this. This puts all other dog owners at risk if they listen and believe the average joe pit owner.
> 
> I am always cautious about all dog interactions with my dog. But I will not have my dog interact with a pit at all.


Thank you!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

RichsRetriever said:


> Give these same people that create these killer / fighter Pits a GR and I guarantee you that GR will be a killer / fighter too.


You do know that pits are bred to fight right? Many, many years and generations. You can make any dog mean but it takes many years and generations to as you say "create these killers". It is no different than breeding field and conformation goldens. It doesn't just happen because of the way you treat them. It is in their DNA.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Years ago we had some tenants that had Pits; one male and one female. They were friendly dogs as long as the owner was around. He hung a rope from a tree and the dogs would jump up, bite onto the rope and just hang there for a long time. We had more than one person think he had hung his dogs. I never trusted those dogs, although I never had an real reason not to, it was just a feeling.

My brother had a Pit, she was very sweet. She let someone come into their house and steal her puppies. (I think she had to have known the person who took them) They took her camping and although they were careful to not interact with other dogs, they never had any type of indecent with her.

The other day, as we were leaving a local park a man and women pulled up in a truck with two loose Pits in the back. As they lowered the tail gate you could see the dogs had weights tied around their necks! The kind of weights that are used to put onto bars (round) Made me sick, I guess they were trying to build neck muscle? It looked very cruel to me.

My sisters Yorkie was attacked and killed by the Pits that lived behind them, they shared a fence. Somehow the dog broke through the fence and attacked Chloey, she managed to make it back into the house but she was torn apart and later died at the Vet office. My nieces (16 and 9) were home at the time and they were the ones that found her and rushed her to the Vet, very very sad. The owner of the Pits paid all expenses and I believe had the dogs put down.

There are good and bad in every breed. I think that horrible part for the Pits is so many stupid people have bought them to look tuff and don't really care about the dog, just the status they think the dog gives them.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I see many pit bulls in practice, many are very good with people. I judge them at their most stressed, i.e. in the vet's office. Many are also dog aggressive. And I would repeat what has already been written that part of the dog aggression issue is how strong and powerful these dogs are. A chihuahua attacking one of my Goldens is more likely to lose in a confrontation with one of my dogs. But one of my Goldens against a powerful dog like a pit bull is likely to be injured...

I have a good friend who has rotties. We have gone to many conformation shows together with her rotties and my Goldens. She is always hyper vigilant with her dogs when standing ringside. Then when she holds one of my dogs, she forgets that you can let them stand on a loose leash as they do not care if another dog gets in their business. A few months ago,here in Maine, there was a rottie mauling of a child... The dog was chained to a barn, the grandmother let the toddler get near the dog, the dog broke the chain, and mauled the child... My friends rotties are registered therapy dogs....


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> I said this before but I can't help myself and have to say it again.
> 
> A well bred pitbull is very friendly and loving to people just like our goldens. What is out there may or may not be a well bred pitbull with the correct temperment. We just don't know if they were bred to their standard or not. They are the popular breed for all the tough guys so people are breeding anything to anything which can turn on a gene or genes to make them not only animal aggressive but also time bombs against people.
> 
> ...


I 100% totally and completely agree with this. I think though that some people either don't understand or don't want to except that dog aggression has zero, zilch, nada to do with human aggression. You can have the most dog aggressive dog. The best winning fighting dog. But that dog can still be perfectly safe around humans. Michael Vicks fighting dogs went on to become therapy dogs. Even his best, most winning dog that was deemed to risky to be adopted became the mascot and greeter for the rescue group that had him.
Would I feel comfortable having those dogs, absolutely not! Would I feel comfortable around them in the correct hands, yes. 
Common sense, back when they made the change from bull baiting to fighting these dogs, the humans had to be able to get in the ring and be able to handle the dogs. A dog that turned on the person was not acceptable.
Also, while obviously pit bulls have the ability because if both its fighting style, stamina, and strength to do a lot of damage. Most true advocates of the breed that actually take the time to research would tell you to never trust a mature pit around other dogs. Even dogs that live together peacefully, it's suggested to keep the crated while left alone.
Again, nothing to do with human aggression.

I would never own a pit bull. I would never let my dogs play with an adult pitbull. But I'd also never let them play with several other breeds that are more prone to dog aggression. Shar pei were also used in dog fighting. 

My neighbor had a couple of terriers. She came home to the aftermath of a fight one day. One of her males killed the other male. These dogs lived together for years without ever getting into a fight. In hindsight there were some warning signs though. Oh, and by terriers I mean Yorkshire Terriers. I believe terriers as a whole are not always known as dog friendly dogs.

But, my main point is that dog aggression gives absolutely no indication of human aggression


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

My boy Diego was dog aggressive as well. And as a puppy he didn't get any training or socialization. It's not just Pitbulls.

Diego simply didn't know how to interact, all he did was tense up and go meet face to face. And my trainer said if there was no fence in between him and other dogs she could see him attacking. But with consistent training he's a different dog, and now loves to play and meet new furry friends.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

solinvictus said:


> What is really important is that a well bred pitbull with the correct temperment will be small animal aggressive. Most average joe's are in denial about this. This puts all other dog owners at risk if they listen and believe the average joe pit owner.


Our Pit Bull lived with cats and a ferret just fine. She'd even let the ferret ride around on her back. But she was dog aggressive. Not outside of the home, she loved strange dogs and has never had an issue with random dogs we met on walks, but inside with the other (our) dogs. I think it was a "My turf" thing. 

She came from a home where she was abused and neglected. She was often locked in a car on hot days.... sweet dog, LOVES people, and for the most part got along with our dogs, but for the odd times she decided to attack our other dogs, we decided to re-home her to an only dog home. 

I honestly don't know if I'd want another Pit Bull... getting one from a puppy might be alright, but I think we'll just be sticking with Goldens...


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

dgmama said:


> My boy Diego was dog aggressive as well. And as a puppy he didn't get any training or socialization. It's not just Pitbulls. This breed just happens to be in the wrong hands.
> 
> Diego simply didn't know how to interact, all he did was tense up and go meet face to face. And my trainer said if there was no fence in between him and other dogs she could see him attacking. But with consistent training he's a different dog, and now loves to play and meet new furry friends.


I also have a dog aggressive lab. Certain dogs set him off more than others. I can control it, but if an unleashed dog comes up to us, there will be a fight if it gets too close. I've used dog mace in the past to prevent a fight.

I would say though that it is different with pit bulls. As someone pointed out, they have been bred for it for generations. It would take generations of breeding dog friendly dogs to breed it out. That's not to say that there aren't some dog friendly pit bulls. Some are social butterflies, some have dog friends but are very selective about them, others tolerate other dogs, while some are outright aggressive. Dog aggression doesn't show up until about 2 years old, so a formerly dog friendly dog can change-that's actually the case with my lab as well.
Plus, if there is a fight, even if another dog starts it the pit bull will finish it. It's best to just not put the dog in that situation.


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

*Roxy & Prez*

These two are buddies


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

Jennifer1 said:


> I 100% totally and completely agree with this. I think though that some people either don't understand or don't want to except that dog aggression has zero, zilch, nada to do with human aggression. You can have the most dog aggressive dog. The best winning fighting dog. But that dog can still be perfectly safe around humans. Michael Vicks fighting dogs went on to become therapy dogs. Even his best, most winning dog that was deemed to risky to be adopted became the mascot and greeter for the rescue group that had him.
> Would I feel comfortable having those dogs, absolutely not! Would I feel comfortable around them in the correct hands, yes.
> Common sense, back when they made the change from bull baiting to fighting these dogs, the humans had to be able to get in the ring and be able to handle the dogs. A dog that turned on the person was not acceptable.
> Also, while obviously pit bulls have the ability because if both its fighting style, stamina, and strength to do a lot of damage. Most true advocates of the breed that actually take the time to research would tell you to never trust a mature pit around other dogs. Even dogs that live together peacefully, it's suggested to keep the crated while left alone.
> ...


That's exactly what I was thinking. I never allow a meet and greet with any dog though. I mean like when walking in the neighborhood or park. Most of the time both dogs go up to each others faces, and it's not correct canine language. I've always hated when people ask if their dog can greet. I agreed once and their dog started growling at mine. Never again. I like play dates a lot better, everybody's off leash, or even sending them to doggy daycare. So I have absolutely nothing against Pits, but I understand what they are capable of. So if I see a loose one(or any dog in fact), I go another way. I don't know that dogs owner, and I don't take any chances.

Actually, the last aggressive dog I've seen was a Flat Coated Retriever. So this happens with plenty of other breeds, not just "vicious" ones.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

Ninde'Gold said:


> Our Pit Bull lived with cats and a ferret just fine. She'd even let the ferret ride around on her back. But she was dog aggressive. Not outside of the home, she loved strange dogs and has never had an issue with random dogs we met on walks, but inside with the other (our) dogs. I think it was a "My turf" thing.
> 
> She came from a home where she was abused and neglected. She was often locked in a car on hot days.... sweet dog, LOVES people, and for the most part got along with our dogs, but for the odd times she decided to attack our other dogs, we decided to re-home her to an only dog home.
> 
> I honestly don't know if I'd want another Pit Bull... getting one from a puppy might be alright, but I think we'll just be sticking with Goldens...


My friend's dog was similar. He was a Saint Bernard Beagle mix, and he got along fine with other dogs but once mine came in his yard he'd start to growl.


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## CrazyZane (Jan 28, 2013)

Few replies and I'm done. This thread will not go anywhere, it'll just keep going back and forth. 





solinvictus said:


> What is really important is that a well bred pitbull with the correct temperment will be small animal aggressive. Most average joe's are in denial about this. This puts all other dog owners at risk if they listen and believe the average joe pit owner.


You can not say all "will be", can be is more like it. Just like any other breed can be too. I've seen multiple threads on here where a GR has killed a squirrel or baby rabbit.

My cousin has a 7yr old APBT named Max. He's not small animal aggressive. He doesn't even try to chase squirrels in the backyard or park let alone any other small animal or dog.

My friend had an APBT named Diamond. She was not small animal aggressive either. His wife had one of those little white furry foo-foo dogs and they got along just fine and they bought the foo-foo dog several years later, so they didn't grow up together as puppies.

My Dads friend had an APBT name Choco. He was not small animal aggressive either. 





Wyatt's mommy said:


> You do know that pits are bred to fight right?


Not originally they weren't. And while some may breed them strictly to fight not all are. None of the 3 Pits above ever got into a fight with another dog or animal. With it being bred into their "DNA" I wonder how so many Pits have lived long lives having never fought another dog or animal? 




Barkr said:


> These two are buddies


You mean it's possible for a Pit to live along side another dog without ripping it limb from limb??



Unsubscribed...have at it. :wave:


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

RichsRetriever said:


> *Not originally they weren't*. And while some may breed them strictly to fight not all are. None of the 3 Pits above ever got into a fight with another dog or animal. With it being bred into their DNA I wonder how so many Pits have lived long lives having never fought another dog or animal?


Right~ Actually before that they were used as gripping dogs ( they would hold on to dangerous wild animals) for hunters. Also became workmates for butchers. They would attach themselves to the nose of bulls and pull them down to the ground. This then turned into "bull baiting" which was a game by putting 2 pits on top of bulls while they attached themselves to the bulls to see who could hold on the longest. And the one that could pin the bull to the ground won. After that was outlawed along came dog fighting. 

If ya want to gamble with that go for it. Not in my lifetime.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *solinvictus*  
_What is really important is that a well bred pitbull with the correct temperment will be small animal aggressive. Most average joe's are in denial about this. This puts all other dog owners at risk if they listen and believe the average joe pit owner._

You can not say all "will be", can be is more like it. Just like any other breed can be too. I've seen multiple threads on here where a GR has killed a squirrel or baby rabbit.

My cousin has a 7yr old APBT named Max. He's not small animal aggressive. He doesn't even try to chase squirrels in the backyard or park let alone any other small animal or dog.

My friend had an APBT named Diamond. She was not small animal aggressive either. His wife had one of those little white furry foo-foo dogs and they got along just fine and they bought the foo-foo dog several years later, so they didn't grow up together as puppies.

My Dads friend had an APBT name Choco. He was not small animal aggressive either. 


"You can not say all "will be", can be is more like it."

I said exactly what I meant. A well bred pit with the correct temperment will be small animal aggressive. 

Good pit breeders were and are breeding for small animal aggression if they are staying true to the original intent of the dog. 
My understanding is that more than one gene will influence temperment just like more than one gene influences HD in goldens. So even breeders that are breeding to standard can and do get dogs that may not have the correct temperment. 

Correct temperment - small animal aggression, people friendly
Incorrect temperment - not aggressive to small animals
Incorrect temperment - aggressive toward people

Of course good training and management mask, cover up, control problems.
No training or bad training and bad management will make things escalate more in some situations.

Like I said before I really like pits, I just won't put my dog at risk no matter how much I like them.

Many pits live wonderful lives in a family with other dogs and will still be small animal aggressive to other dogs, cats etc that are not their family members but some can't do that and then the family has to play this dog has free time now and this dog gets free time later etc. It is a hard road to travel. Some after trying for awhile end up rehoming one of the dogs because of the stress involved to the pets and the people.


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## LilBitBit (Jan 15, 2012)

I think there was a post a few pages back that said something about the member's local animal society enforcing new owner classes for adoptions of "Pit Bull"-type dogs. I think that's an amazing idea. What keeps being said, over and over, on this thread is that people aren't educated and don't know what they're getting themselves into, and those classes address that problem.

I think another part of the problem is the way we go about speaking about it. Yes, APBT as a breed may be more prone to being dangerous, which requires an owner to be more careful. But how? That's the part that isn't usually explained. Instead of education on muzzles/proper walking technique when walking a dog-reactive animal/etc., people are just told "you have an aggressive dog who's going to bite someone so be careful". So they chain the dog up and in their minds it's justified because hey, they're being careful and preventing an incident. (Not saying I agree at all with this idea)

Lastly: somebody else also mentioned weights around a dog's neck. Unfortunately that is a common practice for getting a dog in shape for fighting from what I have been taught. It makes them stronger and helps thicken their neck so that a bite to the neck can't immediately disable/kill.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

olliversmom said:


> I think this story may epitomize some of the problem with Pits. Was at wedding shower outside. Twenty something child of homeowner was there with her newly rescued pitbulls. She worked in pit bull rescue and saved these dogs from death in the fighting ring and euthanasia at shelter. Dogs were fenced away from guests about 20 feet inside outdoor no top pen. Someone asked about them and she told us about bad rap pitbulls get. What good dogs they were. How goldens had more bite stats etc.
> I told told her I pet sit lots of sweet pits that I loved but even owners were leery about other dog interactions. And how any dog from shelter can be great dog but they need supervision training and some of the more aggressive breeds more intensive training. She basically poopooed me and asked what dogs I had. Golden. She held her tongue thank goodness.
> It was about twenty minutes later her 10 year old cousin put his hand out to pet dog and the male pit broke skin on the boys face lunging.
> You cannot champion a breed of dog and then be totally irresponsible in understanding a rescues temperament most especially a fighting dogs temperament. her naivete will have sad consequences one day I fear.


I am pretty much on the fence when it comes to Pit Bulls. I know that well bred and cared pits usually turn out to be great dogs. I can see both sides of the situation. I am neutral when it comes to anti Pit legislation. I agree that most people go to one side or the other from a pit can do no wrong to saying they are horrible dogs that should not exist. It is not all black and white. Pit Bulls can have more aggressive tendencies particullarly towards other dogs. It is usually the owner behind Pits with bad temperaments, but not always. To me Pits can be at greater risk of aggression when improperly cared for then some other breeds since they are so high strung. They need a firm, loving master who knows what they are doing. Yes, there are plenty of other breeds including sadly Goldens that are aggressive too. I still think Pits especially improperly bred ones are at higher risk for unpredictable aggression. Just last night at the dog park a Pit that I think (or thought) was sweet attacked a Lab mix and they fought only an inch away from me. I was so afraid I was going to get bit or possibly mauled. The fight was broke up quickly. No dog got hurt. Still it was a stark reminder of why I believe these dogs can be high risk especially in the wrong hands. I cannot stand an aggressive dog!


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

RichsRetriever said:


> Where's Shorty when you need him?


LOL!:roflmao:


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

But how?

Good fencing, responsible owner and training. 

No off leash in public spaces and no dog parks.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I know that well bred and cared pits usually turn out to be great dogs."

Well bred SMALL ANIMAL AGGRESSIVE pits (which is the correct temperment) are great dogs.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Ok, last comment too about this...
Am just back from Pet Food Store. It has become a silly tradition for Olliver to go in after his puppy K class and pick out a treat for working so hard.
It was great, the place was loaded with people, he must have gotten 30 enthusiastic hellos 
Anyway, as we were on register a young girl came in with 100 pound Rottie. He started pulling her forward (almost off her feet) towards Olliver. Lucky at that moment I had jokingly put him in a cart of a friend that just came in the door, so he was off the floor.
The Rottie owner said: 'Oh he loves puppies!' And my friend laughingly said, "To play with or to eat?"
We all laughed. I told her I had a lovely Rottie 15 years ago and she was a wonderful, sweet loyal dog, but I felt my puppy was a bit too small and puppy obnoxious to be playing with such a big fella quite yet. So, no hurt feelings. But I just felt instinctively that Olliver needed not to go there.
A grown man was walking past the Rottie and said very loudly: I am not afraid of dogs, but I do not trust or like those devil dogs," pointing to the Rottie. I felt bad for the smiling young girl who looked as if she might cry. At that point the Rottie just about pulled her off her feet and barked at the man in none too friendly way. She looked surprised.

Sigh. Again, a young (small) girl with great love in her heart for her beautiful animal is attempting to socialize her pet and win converts to the breed by bringing him out and about, but she does not have control of her animal. The Rottie clearly sensed the hostility/fear from the man and reacted to such. And she was being pulled off her feet.
That is my problem with being around any undisciplined dogs, much less large guard dog type dogs. If you cannot properly restrain your dog at all times, you should not be in public with it.
AND, I feel the same way about my 4 month old, 30 pound Olliver the licking, sweetie pie furball. He was made to sit or lie down and not jump, before anyone could pet him. He will be about 75 pounds one day and he better learn that now.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

RichsRetriever said:


> Shorty manages to handle all 7 of his Pits just fine, some are even his personal service dogs that go out in public with him. All 7 that he owns were rescues and I bet many were abused and were breed to be fighters yet not one of them have managed to harm anyone or turn on Shorty after all these years?? He's taken them to schools and nursing homes to volunteer and since a few are service dogs they go everywhere he does in public and not one incident other than getting slobbery hands from their kisses when people want to meet this vicious breed.
> 
> How is this possible??? I don't know...maybe it's because he actually took the time to properly train them and show them love and not just leave them chained up outside and abuse them like many do so they can have the baddest Pit on the block.
> 
> Give these same people that create these killer / fighter Pits a GR and I guarantee you that GR will be a killer / fighter too.


I love how Hurcules is Shorti's personal service dog. I think it's awesome how some of his dogs are therapy dogs. My favorite episode was when they shipped a Pit Bull puppy to the little girl who was sick and made a wish through the Make a Wish foundation.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Mayve said:


> My neice has a pitt. He is awesome but I still don't 100% trust him. I let him and Sage meet and for the most part it went well. No aggression at all. What struck me was the play style. He would try to take her down and put his mouth on her throat. He didn't hurt her but after the second time doing it I seperated them as I was uncomfortable. We also met a dog at the park who is part pitt...he did the same thing. While they can be wonderful dogs and I don't think we should write off the breed I have decided that I am not comfortable with this and will not take a chance with Sage again. Gabe is still allowed to visit but not allowed off leash when Sage is! My neice understands this as we still include Gabe but she probably thinks I'm over protective...oh well I won't gamble with my dogs safety!
> 
> On another note..my daughter in laws mother has a pitt who lives with a pug they get along great but Runt is dog aggressive with other dogs. She got out and attacked their neighbors dog, although they won't admit she did this they do admit she is dog aggressive. Runt would never ever be allowed by me in Sages vicinity....leashed or crated. I am concerened that she will be around my new grandson. They say she is great with kids. I pray Liam doesn't pay the price for their lack of realizing she could do something.....scary!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have noticed the same thing happen when Mercy played with Pits and Pit mixes at the dog park. Some Pits play to rough, and when Mercy was under a year old Pits would tackle her in a way that was uncomfortable while she was submitting and wincing. This is why I am leery about dog parks and don't go too often. Now that Mercy is big and confident, she is able to perform manuvers that prevent dogs from pinning her. Mercy's intelligence amazes me.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> .....If ya want to gamble with that go for it. Not in my lifetime.


This is what it comes down to. I am not willing to take the risk either because the stakes are too high if you lose. No one should be forced to take the gamble unasked because a neighbor makes a mistake or has poor judgement in animal management. I'm tired of seeing people make the argument that Goldens can be small aggressive also and this equates with the risk associated with pit bulls. The damage inflicted and the instinct/type of bite simply aren't the same.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I choose to listen to the many well known trainers, and mine as well who knows tons about animals. She has trained seals, dolphins, birds, cats, horses, and dogs. So I think she knows a little something.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> I also have a dog aggressive lab. Certain dogs set him off more than others. I can control it, but if an unleashed dog comes up to us, there will be a fight if it gets too close. I've used dog mace in the past to prevent a fight.
> 
> I would say though that it is different with pit bulls. As someone pointed out, they have been bred for it for generations. It would take generations of breeding dog friendly dogs to breed it out. That's not to say that there aren't some dog friendly pit bulls. Some are social butterflies, some have dog friends but are very selective about them, others tolerate other dogs, while some are outright aggressive. Dog aggression doesn't show up until about 2 years old, so a formerly dog friendly dog can change-that's actually the case with my lab as well.
> Plus, if there is a fight, even if another dog starts it the pit bull will finish it. It's best to just not put the dog in that situation.


My Lab mix was dog aggressive.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Barkr said:


> These two are buddies


And the Golden in the photo looks just like Mercy!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

My Lab mix was dog aggressive.  

Was your lab fear aggressive? If so it can be just as threatening to another dog if you didn't manage it but it is different than the small animal aggression in pits. The small animal aggression is part of their prey drive sequence. No fear involved.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

solinvictus said:


> "I know that well bred and cared pits usually turn out to be great dogs."
> 
> Well bred SMALL ANIMAL AGGRESSIVE pits (which is the correct temperment) are great dogs.


My Lab/GSD mix was small animal aggressive. He would kill possums. He killed a ferret once.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

> Ok, last comment too about this...
> Am just back from Pet Food Store. It has become a silly tradition for Olliver to go in after his puppy K class and pick out a treat for working so hard.
> It was great, the place was loaded with people, he must have gotten 30 enthusiastic hellos
> Anyway, as we were on register a young girl came in with 100 pound Rottie. He started pulling her forward (almost off her feet) towards Olliver. Lucky at that moment I had jokingly put him in a cart of a friend that just came in the door, so he was off the floor.
> ...


I really hate this too. One time I saw a woman come in to Petco with a Lab. It dragged her over to me, jumped up and almost knocked me down. Plus was very rude to Ginger. Either get control of your dog or give it to someone else who can train it! What if I had a dog aggressive dog?

Before I started training with Diego, we were at the Vets office, and as I walk in the door someone let their Pit Bull come right up to him. They greeted fine, but after a few seconds Diego did a little growl. So I took him away. THIS is very irresponsible.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> My Lab mix was dog aggressive.
> 
> Was your lab fear aggressive? If so it can be just as threatening to another dog if you didn't manage it but it is different than the small animal aggression in pits. The small animal aggression is part of their prey drive sequence. No fear involved.



My lab is fear aggressive. He won't actively go after another dog unless it comes into his space (which is quite large!). The exception to that is if it's a dog he has had an altercation with in the past.

My brothers dog is an Anatolian shepard, and he has a pretty high prey drive. He has killed a cat and several bunnies and chipmunks. He almost killed their own cat before they realized he had such a high prey drive. I guess that would qualify as small animal aggression.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Both my goldens had/have a high prey drive. They loved/love to chase the rabbits in the desert. However they were never fast enough to catch them or would give up mid chase. : Both won't hurt a flea. Just love to play chase.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Personally, I do not let other dogs sniff my dogs... I have found that many owners are clueless about their dog's aggression. Years ago, I was at my son's soccer game. A parent with a white standard poodle walked over, she snapped at Georgie and Mantha, who tried to climb inside my shirt... The poodle owner confided that she did that to children. So I told myself, my son would never go to their house!!!


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I always know when someone's dog has behavioral problems because they tell me their dog needs socialization. And I'm just like :no:


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Tucker has been attacked by:

Black Lab (neighbors dog: lunged and grabbed onto his throat, wouldn't let go)
Jack Russell Terrier (neighbors dog: Randomly went at Tucker as we walked by)
Pomeranian (Neighbors dog: Went at Tucker's legs, bit my husband's ankle)
Pit Bull (Our dog: Though 95% best buddies, she randomly went at him a couple of times)
Golden Retriever (Random Dog: Was sniffing Tuck with tail wagging, then went at him)

I believe all those above situations have contributed to Tucker not wanting any strange dogs near him. He will lunge and bark as to say "Get away from me!" But if he was ever to be attacked again he'd cower and submit. He's not really a fighter.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

dgmama said:


> I always know when someone's dog has behavioral problems because they tell me their dog needs socialization. And I'm just like :no:


That is not always the case. There are some dogs that shouldn't socialize with other dogs because they are inherently aggressive. Alot of un socialized dog are submissive.



Ninde'Gold said:


> Tucker has been attacked by:
> 
> Black Lab (neighbors dog: lunged and grabbed onto his throat, wouldn't let go)
> Jack Russell Terrier (neighbors dog: Randomly went at Tucker as we walked by)
> ...


Ah poor Tucker!


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I was going to reply back, but decided not to. This whole Pitbull thread is getting old. I feel like I'm just having to repeat myself. So just gonna add some stuff I saw on pinterest today. Bye bye now! And this time is for reals. Lol.




























We need more folks like Kaley Cuoco.


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## dwiley (Aug 19, 2012)

Everyone needs to watch this video:

Kaley Cuoco's Pitbull Enjoying A Hot Tub


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

16-Week-Old Bristol Was Chained to a Fence with Lacerations, Broken Pelvis, Spinal Damage « Hendrick Boards Blog

I'm thinking this puppy will probably grow up to be one of those dogs that will probably be identified as a pitbull even though I think she's actually a shepherd/pit mix. 

Only 16 weeks old. 

People go searching for negative pitbull stories with dogs who get loose and attack people and other dogs....and find handfuls... meanwhile most rescues are inundated with pups who come in from homes like this. This pup was chained to a backyard fence where she was repeatedly attacked by other dogs and probably abused by the owners. She's broken to pieces and there are thankfully full-hearted people out there who do not make exceptions when it comes to love and kindness towards dogs. They rescued her and are doing their best to save her.

When you have pups in hands like her original owners, it is no wonder you have dogs turning mean towards other dogs. Especially when aggression is encouraged by the owners. If you have people who bring these pups home for "protection" especially. And then limit how much positive socialization these dogs have with other dogs....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

No need to go searching about pit attacks out here in So Cal. All you need to do is watch the local news station or read your local paper.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> No need to go searching about pit attacks out here in So Cal. All you need to do is watch the local news station or read your local paper.


It's like that here with all the horror stories about what people do to these dogs. I have never met an aggressive pit bull, unlike you apparently. And I've met a lot of dogs who were rescued from terrible people or who thankfully were given to rescue at birth and hopefully will never experience the lives that their counterparts in the city experience. 

There are too many people who should never own dogs who get their hands on these dogs. And the story is the same as it would be if these people got their hands on rotties and shepherds.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> It's like that here with all the horror stories about what people do to these dogs. I have never met an aggressive pit bull, unlike you apparently. And I've met a lot of dogs who were rescued from terrible people or who thankfully were given to rescue at birth and hopefully will never experience the lives that their counterparts in the city experience.
> 
> There are too many people who should never own dogs who get their hands on these dogs. And the story is the same as it would be if these people got their hands on rotties and shepherds.


Yes unfortunately a good friend of mine almost lost her arm from one. Yes it is sad the way they and many other dogs are treated. Doesn't change the facts of their brutal attacks on dogs and people. 

Why do goldens have soft mouths? Because it is in the "breed". That doesn't happen over night. that is many years of breeding. The same reason why a pit will go for the throat of another dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

What does "soft mouth" mean to you exactly? 

Goldens CAN bite and draw blood and cause enough injury to need stitches. Please do not get wrapped in an assumption that only X breeds bite and X breeds never do. Dogs are dogs. 

Our first golden (backyard bred like yours is) took a chomp out of my lip. I have a permanent "buckle" because a piece was missing when they did the stitches. Our second dog who came from a good breeder bit my sister (needed stitches) and bit my baby sister (probably needed stitches, but we hid the injury from our parents) all before he was 2 years old. 

And I can show you dog bones that my current 2 have shredded while in "chewing mode". If they can shred a bone within a couple hours, it would not be a huge deal attacking a human should they have the poorly bred temperament and lack handling/training. 

With the majority of pit bulls being MIXED BREEDS, there is obviously no attempt to breed sound temperament into these dogs. And they are owned by idiots or jerks who should not own any dogs. And they are left intact and never trained. And they are rarely to never taken off their home turf. And they are left outside in urban areas where they develop territory and aggression issues because they have essentially been left out there to fend for themselves. 

I went to the petstore this morning to pick up dog food and a bunch of other stuff that we need (30 dollars worth of dog bones! ) and met up with somebody with a 9 year old female aussie mix. Within seconds this dog began snarling and lunging at Bertie and trying to attack him. 

I pulled Bertie back and the owner of the mix walked away. Both my guys were unaffected by the "attack", because I was right there and ready to step between them and the attacking dog. They have never been put in a position where they had to fend for themselves - unlike dogs in a dog park. As it was, Bertie actually turned around and watched the owner and mix leave, his tail wagging and head up confident, like he was waiting for them to come back. And Jacks was like "whatever" - and flirting with somebody else who was coming up to visit. 

That is a properly bred temperament and the rest is socialization and training. 

I've met goldens and labs who would have reacted completely different when it comes to another dog getting in their face and attacking. That is the difference in breeding and training. 

People who own dogs should not just "breed check" when it comes to letting their dogs out to play with others. They need to be smart about dog behavior and know what causes bad behavior. It's not just breeding and "breed".

And all dogs go for the throat when attacking. I saw that with a neighbors mix (sort of a cattledog mix) who went for Jacks' neck when he/she/it got out of their fenced yard (it is a tall fence, the dog scaled it). Our cross the street neighbor's beagle did the same thing years ago with my Danny - went right for the neck.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

If pit bulls are not aggressive, then why so many dogs,and people get attacked by them?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldensrbest said:


> If pit bulls are not aggressive, then why so many dogs,and people get attacked by them?


Uh - nobody is saying that there are not aggressive pit bulls. I think I'm mainly disputing the ignorant generalization that all pit bulls (and keep in mind you are referring to mixed breeds - so very large sampling of dogs with many breed lines/traits behind them) are inevitably aggressive. Understand that when these dogs are evaluated by rescues, they go temperament tests and then foster homes to ensure that they can be adoptable and/or to see what kind of homes can adopt them. These foster homes are multi-dog homes, unless it's discovered the dogs do not do well with other dogs. Again, I know of certain former bait pits who are doing very well in multiple dog homes - which gives you an idea as far as aggression. 

Dog attacks happen all the time. Plenty of GRF members, btw, have posted threads about their golden retrievers attacking other dogs. And terrible attacks happen with other breeds as well. I know of one in my area where a woman had 6 or 7 english mastiffs kept in her barn. They got loose and killed 2 people - completely shredding them. That woman, btw, went to jail and all those dogs were put down. And again, 2 cases that I personally know of where a child had his face ripped off and another dog was eviscerated involved purebred labrador retrievers.

Labrador retrievers also have "soft mouths" btw.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I am not ignorant or generalizing and I happen to know exactly what a pit bull looks like. I wouldn't get a dog that I couldn't trust. One of the reasons we bowed out of rescuing. Nothing against rescues it was just our "choice". Because yes any dog can be mean and not knowing their history made me uneasy. But nothing to the extent of the savage maulings of the pit bulls in my area. And people saying it takes a speacial owner to own a pit, well pretty much speaks for itself JMHO.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldensrbest said:


> If pit bulls are not aggressive, then why so many dogs,and people get attacked by them?


Because there is generations of fighting in the breed.


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## Michele4 (Oct 28, 2012)

goldensrbest said:


> If pit bulls are not aggressive, then why so many dogs,and people get attacked by them?


I think its because they are a very popular breed believe it or not, in my neighborhood alone Goldens by far are more popular but I do see people with Pit bulls, average middle income families owing them. I think with the home invasions and the break ins that are growing people rather have a Pit bull than a Cocker Spanial. Let face it we are not going to hear on the new about a Lab biting a person but you can better believe if a Pit bites a child it's going to make news.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

WM - I wasn't referring specifically to anyone. I said the behavior of generalizing re/breeds displays ignorance.

Akitas - for example, are fighting bred dogs. Literally - years ago how the breed evolved was as fighting dogs. Then guard dogs. I don't want to drag Bentleysmom in here, but I think she's awesome for how she's managing Ky. 

Akitas do scare me - because they are both large and strong... and sometimes unpredictable based on how they read people and other dogs. The fact that Ky is so sound is a tribute to her owners. 

Specific breeds like this require experienced owners. The same is said of german shepherds, rottweilers, mastiffs, etc...

I have a close friend who owns a boerboel - and at one point had 2 of them. New to dog ownership and had 4 kids under 10. While she was not an experienced dog owner, this lady was very dog smart and matterfact when it comes to dogs. So a good home. Both her dogs were rescues - so yes, she was evaluated. 

Mixed breeds are slightly different depending on the dogs themselves. 

One thing I do wish... is that dog ownership would require evaluation. If not in all cases, then in those cases with big or very strong breeds. 

Pit bulls - are not always large dogs. Most of the ones I've met are between 40 and 60 pounds and smaller than my goldens. They are very strong and stubborn and do require dog training and special management because they are more likely to blow off their owners and do what they want. It's that terrier temperament. 

Just me thinking aloud here.... 

* I have to get out and walk my dogs now before they call the 1-800-abused hotline because of their mom sitting on the computer all day.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

That is my point, they have it in them to be aggressive, there are a lot of bad breeders in pit bulls, plus they seem to be the dog to have,in parts of the usa, if goldens were killing other dogs, some people,and bitting, they to would be on the news.as much as pitts.


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## Michele4 (Oct 28, 2012)

Their no doubt in my mind that there is a huge problem with these dogs in America,but with that being said* they *are not the problem *we* are.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Months ago I was lurking on the pit bull forum out of boredom. I wanted to learn a little bit about them. I learned that in general, responsible pit bull owners never leave their pit unsupervised with their other dogs and they must crate and rotate. They also never take them to dog parks. I believe it was said that it should be this way for all bully breeds.

If owners can't trust their own pit with the other dogs they LIVE with, should I not be wary of a strange pit? There will always be attacks by other breeds but you will never hear that goldens, labs, etc, in general must be crated and rotated and kept out of dog parks. 

My neighbor has a pit who is super sweet. Other than him, I don't really see pits here. I consider myself lucky in that regard. 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I know people who own pit bull mixes. 

They have multiple dogs and do not crate them. 

Reliance on crating as far as training and socializing dogs with others... I don't really understand the benefit of that as far as raising your dogs. I would think it would encourage instability or uncertainty as far as how the dogs behave with each other? Especially since I know of goldens who become crate aggressive (they feel cornered in their crates and do not like other dogs approaching their crates because they can't escape). 

Color me confused. 

I would never take my guys out into a dog park because I do not want them attacked by other people's dogs - regardless of their breeds.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

They're crated and rotated when not supervised/home alone. Bottom line is they would never trust their pit to be unsupervised with other animals. 

But what do I know. I'm just sharing what I had gathered on the *pit bull* forum. They probably know better than all of us here.

I would rather play it on the safe side from what I had read on there from pit OWNERS, than trust pits based on a few good experiences some here may have have had with pits, but don't personally own any.

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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess if the specific dogs are aggressive enough? I dunno. I think another member here on GRF said her dogs have to be crated and rotated or something similar - and that included other breeds besides pits.  

Somebody here was telling me about when she was handling an aggressive breed (not pits or goldens), that she was at the breeder's house and the dogs broke into a terrible fight. And she said something about putting towels on these dogs heads outside the ring so fights don't break out there? This specific breed - I'll wager - can't be left alone together.  

Again - the pit mixes I know of personally are in multiple dog homes. The owners do not believe in crating and have no concerns leaving their dogs loose in the home while they are home and when they are not. These dogs do not have an aggressive bone in their bodies, though so have their owners' trust. And I'm friends with pit owners (as opposed to eavesdropping on online people who may not represent everyone) and have met the dogs in person. 

If you let your dogs out in dog parks, I think you have a higher level of trust when it comes to how you view other dogs than I do....  Especially when it's inevitable that fights break out.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Michele4 said:


> I think its because they are a very popular breed believe it or not, in my neighborhood alone Goldens by far are more popular but I do see people with Pit bulls, average middle income families owing them. I think with the home invasions and the break ins that are growing people rather have a Pit bull than a Cocker Spanial. Let face it we are not going to hear on the new about a Lab biting a person but you can better believe if a Pit bites a child it's going to make news.


Dog bites happen everyday. There is a difference between a dog bite and a mauling weird how we never hear about "just a bite" with pits either.

I just have to tell you how beautiful Murphee is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Dog bites happen everyday. There is a difference between a dog bite and a mauling weird how we never hear about "just a bite" with pits either.


Because "bites" do not make the news. Mauling does. 

Somebody pointed out earlier that the breed is not mentioned in mauling cases if it is not a pitbull. If it is a pitbull then it is noteworthy. 

The lab who ripped the face off a kid in my neighborhood - I think if a kid has bites all over his body and needs reconstructive surgery on his face, you would call that a mauling? That story did not make the news. 

The dog was put down and the family after being sued moved to a different neighborhood, and I believe have another dog now. Who probably has the same aggression issues since they leave the dogs outside. 

The other lab shredded another dog to the point its intestines were all hanging out before the owner of the other dog beat the lab off and rushed her dog tot he vet. These people are still neighbors. The lab has attacked other dogs since then. No lawsuits. Never made the news.

A coworker of mine also - his daughter had her face completely shredded by a border terrier. This mauling was the second bite with this dog. There was a lawsuit settled out of court. No demands to have the dog put down. The dog bit another child and then had to be put down. This story never made the news either.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> Because "bites" do not make the news.


That was my point.


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## Michele4 (Oct 28, 2012)

Not going to debate here like I said before it's our problem(humankind) not the dog we over breed, abused and neglected.


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## Michele4 (Oct 28, 2012)

I might add we need to start changing our(humankind) behavior first.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> That was my point.


I thought you were trying to say maulings only happen with pits. Which case I disagreed quite strongly since I know of labs (you know with that "soft bite") who have mauled children and other dogs.

@Michele - I think that if you have been involved with a dog abuse case, then you have to be listed as people who must never own a dog ever again. Period. Like Michael Vick - who btw has gotten another dog (Belgian Malinois)....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> I thought you were trying to say maulings only happen with pits. Which case I disagreed quite strongly since I know of labs (you know with that "soft bite") who have mauled children and other dogs.
> 
> @Michele - I think that if you have been involved with a dog abuse case, then you have to be listed as people who must never own a dog ever again. Period. Like Michael Vick - who btw has gotten another dog....


No I meant mauling (not bites) hit the headlines regardless of the breed. If the media was just singling out pit bulls then you would also hear about pit bull "bites". But you don't.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> No I meant mauling (not bites) hit the headlines regardless of the breed. If the media was just singling out pit bulls then you would also hear about pit bull "bites". But you don't.


And I said in response that I personally knew of mauling cases that never made the news. With the lab, I saw the aggression issue long before the mauling happened. The other lab - everyone has a word of mouth not to go near the house where the lab lives because it's dangerous. And with my coworker - I know this family. They were friends with the other family and only sued because they needed to pay for facial reconstruction for their daughter and needed the money. They themselves own a border terrier so did not focus on the breed.... when it came to asking "why" the attack happened.

The emotional reaction to the cases by people who were involved or heard about it was different than the emotional reaction when the cases involve a pit bull. 

In cases with labs - people are more likely to blame the owners (rightly so) than the breed. 

With pits and the high number of people who want the breed banned - any attack and people immediately focus on the breed as opposed to the situations.

You can see this... btw... from the reaction on this board. We do not know all the details from a golden retriever getting attacked by two "large" pit bulls - other than the dog being sent home while the owners filmed the attack? I gathered (and I assumed correctly) that since the attack occurred in a neighborhood dog park that the owners of the golden do not have a chance at a lawsuit. Unless I read all that completely wrong? That thread lead to the same old discussion on pits. 

In the past, I think people posted about how their dog attacked other dogs in a dog park - there was not the same level of discussion. There was even another case where owners met up with their dogs and there was "disagreement" between the dogs. There was not the same or any discussion on the breed or the dogs.... other than encouraging the people to take their dogs to behaviorists.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> And I said in response that I personally knew of mauling cases that never made the news. With the lab, I saw the aggression issue long before the mauling happened. The other lab - everyone has a word of mouth not to go near the house where the lab lives because it's dangerous. And with my coworker - I know this family. They were friends with the other family and only sued because they needed to pay for facial reconstruction for their daughter and needed the money. They themselves own a border terrier so did not focus on the breed.... when it came to asking "why" the attack happened.
> 
> The emotional reaction to the cases by people who were involved or heard about it was different than the emotional reaction when the cases involve a pit bull.
> 
> ...


If that were true about the pits then EVERY SINGLE TIME A PIT "bites" it would be in the news. And we all know that doesn't happen. Wouldn't that help the haters agenda? The reality is they make those crowbar thingamajigs that someone posted to pry them off dogs and people.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Michele4 said:


> ...* they *are not the problem *we* are.





Vhuynh2 said:


> ...I'm just sharing what I had gathered on the *pit bull* forum. They probably know better than all of us here.
> 
> I would rather play it on the safe side from what I had read on there from pit OWNERS, than trust pits based on a few good experiences some here may have have had with pits, but don't personally own any.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I'm not going to read all 14 pages of this thread. But I've read some of the posts. I just don't get the above line of thinking. Of course the people on the pit bull forums are not going to bash their favorite breed. So you are going to "play it safe" and "trust" the pit bull owners over what is shared from others who have been victims of the breed? The pit bull owners are going to be the most biased people out there. It's kinda like a human parent is always going to defend their child. 

Anyway, so most people think they have to pick nature (breed/genetics) vs nurture (owner). I personally think it is either or both. The breed of very aggressive and should not be trusted around children and dogs outside of their own "pack". I've seen too many pit bull attacks from pit bulls that were raised in loving homes. If a normal loving home is not enough, then the average person must need special training to raise these dogs to prevent this kind of aggression. People do not deserve these blindsided pit bull attacks on their families. The government should require a permit for pit bull owners to prove they are competent to raise/own a pit bull. 

I work in an operating room. I frequently see children with severe injuries from dog bites. I'd say 90% of them from pit bulls. The other 10% are usually not as severe as the pit bull attacks. Also, my golden (Sadie) was attacked by a pit bull at a dog park when she was 2. I saw the whole thing. Sadie was standing about 10 ft from me. Just looking around, waging her tail. Not even looking at the pit bull. BAM! Within seconds out of nowhere the pit bull was latched on to Sadie's neck. I kicked the pit bull several times before he let go. While I was tending to my dog. The pit bull and owner disappeared. 

So, blame it on the breed... blame it on the owner... whatever. If it's the owners fault, then require owners to have a permit that gets permanently revoked if they ever have a pit bull that attacks another dog or human. These attacks happen way to often. WAY more often that any of us realize. MOST of the pit bull attacks I see in the OR do not make the news. Especially not national news.


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## Michele4 (Oct 28, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I just have to tell you how beautiful Murphee is.


thank you!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Michele4 said:


> thank you!


Welcome! I just noticed your signature photo


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

stealle said:


> I'm not going to read all 14 pages of this thread. But I've read some of the posts. I just don't get the above line of thinking. Of course the people on the pit bull forums are not going to bash their favorite breed. So you are going to "play it safe" and "trust" the pit bull owners over what is shared from others who have been victims of the breed? The pit bull owners are going to be the most biased people out there. It's kinda like a human parent is always going to defend their child.
> 
> Anyway, so most people think they have to pick nature (breed/genetics) vs nurture (owner). I personally think it is either or both. The breed of very aggressive and should not be trusted around children and dogs outside of their own "pack". I've seen too many pit bull attacks from pit bulls that were raised in loving homes. If a normal loving home is not enough, then the average person must need special training to raise these dogs to prevent this kind of aggression. People do not deserve these blindsided pit bull attacks on their families. The government should require a permit for pit bull owners to prove they are competent to raise/own a pit bull.
> 
> ...


I think you misunderstood my post. I don't trust pit bulls. I believe the pit bull owners on their forum when they say they can't trust their own dogs with other animals. If they don't trust their own dogs, I don't either. Again, the OWNERS DO NOT TRUST THEIR DOGS. They know sudden acts of aggression can occur in their breed at any time. 

I'm playing it safe by being wary and staying away!! What's wrong with that??


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## Michele4 (Oct 28, 2012)

stealle said:


> So, blame it on the breed... blame it on the owner... whatever. If it's the owners fault, then require owners to have a permit that gets permanently revoked if they ever have a pit bull that attacks another dog or human. These attacks happen way to often. WAY more often that any of us realize. MOST of the pit bull attacks I see in the OR do not make the news. Especially not national news.


I agree that that if your dog *attacks* somebody and does them bodily harm( if the owner is at fault not a simple accident) they should not be allowed to own dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> If that were true about the pits then EVERY SINGLE TIME A PIT "bites" it would be in the news. And we all know that doesn't happen. Wouldn't that help the haters agenda? The reality is they make those crowbar thingamajigs that someone posted to pry them off dogs and people.


I think you said and I agreed.... bites do not make the news. Mauling does. 

I don't necessarily think people have agendas. I think they have an emotional and mental mindset when it comes to dogs. This based on what they've read and/or experienced. It colors what they see. 

Stealle posted after you did - the way he got a pit bull to leave off his dog was by kicking the dog. He didn't need a crowbar.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I really don't see how much more anybody could disagree with what Megora has said. She's making sense.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> I think you said and I agreed.... bites do not make the news. Mauling does.
> 
> I don't necessarily think people have agendas. I think they have an emotional and mental mindset when it comes to dogs. This based on what they've read and/or experienced. It colors what they see.
> 
> Stealle posted after you did - the way he got a pit bull to leave off his dog was by kicking the dog. He didn't need a crowbar.


Experience is the best education one can get. i'm not colored by my experience. I was referring to the crowbar thing someone posted about which pit owners carry.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Experience is the best education one can get.


Er... not always....? 

If I relied on experience alone, I would have a pretty down opinion of labs as these nasty horrible dogs. Really, I've met a LOT of nasty aggressive labs in addition to those 2 mauling labs mentioned already. And the first and only "other" dog bite I've had came from another neighbor's lab when I was walking him back home. He left chew marks on my arm.  

But even right up to mid-last year, I was interviewing a lab breeder and thinking about bringing a lab home. I believe breeding and training are big issues with the breed. And a lot of labs should never have been born based on the breeding behind them. And their owners should never have become dog owners based on their way of training or managing these dogs. Those dogs + their owners essentially was like fireworks in the dryer. 

I think a lot of the pit bull attack stories that hit the news are similar cases.... as are personal experience stories people have with pit bulls attacking their dogs in dog parks. 

If I owned a pit bull, I would be terrified of letting him loose in public - primarily because there is no leniency when it comes to these dogs. Even how I own and handle my dogs, I know it would be completely different if I owned a pit bull or a rottweiler - or even a shepherd! I believe these dogs all need fences. 

Because if goldens run off property, people don't necessarily make a big deal about it. Case in point, while I was out walking with my guys - somebody's golden came running out to visit with us. The golden was definitely posturing the entire time - thankfully my guys aren't challengers so nothing came of it. I chatted with the owner and then moved on. 

Thinking about the conversation on here, I imagine it would all be completely different if a pit bull came running out to visit as that golden had. Even if an attack didn't happen - the visual of a pit bull posturing or even waggling around somebody's dog, I imagine how dangerous it would be for that pit bull. 

The same thing if I owned any other breed known to be dangerous. I imagine there is no benefit of the doubt if your dog goes running out there to visit a passing neighbor. 

I'm just rambling though....


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> If owners can't trust their own pit with the other dogs they LIVE with, should I not be wary of a strange pit? There will always be attacks by other breeds but you will never hear that goldens, labs, etc, in general must be crated and rotated and kept out of dog parks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with you, I wouldn't let my dogs play with a strange pit.
But, there have been treads on this forum of people that can't leave their dogs home together without separating them.
There is a reason that people advise getting dogs of opposite sex. It's not as prevalent as other breeds (malamutes come to mind) but same sex aggression is fairly common. There have been threads here mainly involving multiple females


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Jennifer1 said:


> I agree with you, I wouldn't let my dogs play with a strange pit.
> But, there have been treads on this forum of people that can't leave their dogs home together without separating them.
> There is a reason that people advise getting dogs of opposite sex. It's not as prevalent as other breeds (malamutes come to mind) but same sex aggression is fairly common. There have been threads here mainly involving multiple females


I am aware that dogs of any breed may be crated because they are dog aggressive. My point is that from what I have read, crating and rotating is just what pit owners do because pits can be unpredictable. Crating and rotating seems to be part of responsible pit bull ownership, regardless of the sex of dogs in the household and regardless of signs (or lack of) dog aggression (again, from what I have read).


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I actually had a pit bull come running towards cambrige and myself walking ,in early spring, there is one where we walk, she had him out walking, no leash on him, he came running towards us, I was scared, I yelled at the lady,to get your dog, she yelled back at me in a not nice tone, YES MAMA.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I am aware that dogs of any breed may be crated because they are dog aggressive. My point is that from what I have read, crating and rotating is just what pit owners do because pits can be unpredictable. Crating and rotating seems to be part of responsible pit bull ownership, regardless of the sex of dogs in the household and regardless of signs (or lack of) dog aggression (again, from what I have read).
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Yes, but I'm also talking about breeds that the owners will tell you to never leave two intact males or two intact females together. Not just random dogs that are dog aggressive but as a general rule. My former boss owned/trained malamutes and she would never leave to of the same sex loose together unattended. My only point is that is not unique to pit bulls. 

Again, I have a lab mix that is dog aggressive. He's mixed with beagle so neither one of those breeds are known to be aggressive. In my personal experience with him it is the little dogs that are the most nasty! On my daily walk I have a schnauzer that I walk past that has come running at us a few times. I've had to mace it on more than 1 occasion. Before anyone says anything, it really only takes a bite in the right place to be serious or even fatal for my dogs.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I don 't have a problem being bit. I have before. There is a big difference between a bite and a savage attack. That's the reason why pits have a bad rap.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

Bites don't make the news. :doh: My friend was attacked by a Lab and got a big chunk outta his leg. That didn't make the news. Yet I'm not going to label Labs aggressive because there was a reason behind it. That dog never got any socialization, and was chained his entire life. And sadly, most Pitbulls have to live this way. I actually saw another chained one on our walk. Broke my heart.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My first dog bite was from a neutered Irish setter while doing a heartworm test. I still have a scar on my wrist. My first bad bite was from an intact male GSP. I was benignly holding his leash while my boss went to get an injection of Innovar Vet(tranquilizer). Out of nowhere, the dog leapt up and bit my left hand. That was 1987. In the meantime , my fingers and hands have narrowly escaped a neutered Welsh Terrier, a neutered Maltese, and a spayed female Kuvasz who had my right forearm, but had bite inhibition so that my arm was only bruised. My second bad bite was last Fall from a spayed GSD mix. She let me pick her up, no problem, then she lunged and grabbed my right forearm. When she bit me, my wrist instantly went numb. Notice I have never been bitten by a pitbull. I see plenty of pitbulls and their mixes. I find many of their owners are more likely to recommend a muzzle than the owners of other breeds.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

dgmama said:


> Bites don't make the news. :doh: My friend was attacked by a Lab and got a big chunk outta his leg. That didn't make the news. Yet I'm not going to label Labs aggressive because there was a reason behind it. That dog never got any socialization, and was chained his entire life. And sadly, most Pitbulls have to live this way. I actually saw another chained one on our walk. Broke my heart.



Pits don't get a bad reputation for biting. You can spin it anyway you want.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Sally's Mom; said:


> I see plenty of pitbulls and their mixes. I find many of their owners are more likely to recommend a muzzle than the owners of other breeds.


My lab is terrified of getting his nails trimmed. He won't even let you hold onto his front paw. I have to take him in to get his nails trimmed and it takes 3 people to do it-2 to hold and 1 to cut.
The first time I took him to my current vet I suggested they muzzle him. I don't honestly think he would bite but he is afraid enough that he just might. It was funny because they were equally thankful and shocked that I would suggest it! He's fine for an exam and shots, but we always pull out the muzzle for the nail trim!


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

*Nails*



Jennifer1 said:


> My lab is terrified of getting his nails trimmed. He won't even let you hold onto his front paw. I have to take him in to get his nails trimmed and it takes 3 people to do it-2 to hold and 1 to cut.
> The first time I took him to my current vet I suggested they muzzle him. I don't honestly think he would bite but he is afraid enough that he just might. It was funny because they were equally thankful and shocked that I would suggest it! He's fine for an exam and shots, but we always pull out the muzzle for the nail trim!


My old Golden Homer was fine with nail trim til one day he wasn't.
He was the most gentle dog I have ever had, but when I would take his paw and get out clippers he would put his giant mouth around my whole hand. Not bite. Just encase hand with his mouth and gums.
"I'm warning you ma!" I would just laugh at him and trim away.


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## Isaac (Aug 31, 2012)

diane0905 said:


> I'd say the dog is "special" if it is dog aggressive and kills a Golden after busting into the dog's home. Ridiculous. These dogs should not be in neighborhoods.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I gotta disagree with you there. While it's no secret that the breeds under the "pit bull" umbrella have earned a bad reputation, I firmly believe that dogs represent their owners/trainers. With this in mind, if we are to ban these dogs from a neighborhood, then we ought to first ban the kind of owners that would seek out, and later neglect, such animals. Placing blame, however well-intentioned, on an animal who is only doing what us humans designed it for, is completely unfair in my view. the breed should not suffer more than it already has at the hands of pop culture, who at some point decided it was bada$$ to own a 'pit'. [/my two cents]


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Months ago I was lurking on the pit bull forum out of boredom. I wanted to learn a little bit about them. I learned that in general, responsible pit bull owners never leave their pit unsupervised with their other dogs and they must crate and rotate. They also never take them to dog parks. I believe it was said that it should be this way for all bully breeds.
> 
> If owners can't trust their own pit with the other dogs they LIVE with, should I not be wary of a strange pit? There will always be attacks by other breeds but you will never hear that goldens, labs, etc, in general must be crated and rotated and kept out of dog parks.
> 
> ...


A few dog trainers I know live with pit bulls on the crate and rotate system. I find it colors their views of other dogs, and they tend to recommend crate and rotate to any clients getting a second or third dog not matter what the breed. 

We have a Rally O class especially for pet dog trainers, and I had them into the house for dinner this week. The pit bull person just was in disbelief that three males were lounging around together .

While I respect the effort and incredible responsibility it takes to live with multiple pit bulls, there is no way I would want to do it,


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

RichsRetriever said:


> I was about to post pretty much the same thing a few pages back but didn't. I bet if "Pits" were raised in homes like so many GRs are on this forum these types of attacks wouldn't be happening.


I do not agree with that. In the pit bull "breed standard" crafted by fanciers and those devoted to the cause, it says that dog aggression in a PB older than two is not a fault, but they must never be human aggressive.

Here is the UKC Breed Standard for the American Pit Bull Terrier's personality: CHARACTERISTICS


> The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are strength, confidence, and zest for life. This breed is eager to please and brimming over with enthusiasm. APBTs make excellent family companions and have always been noted for their love of children. Because most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression and because of its powerful physique, the APBT requires an owner who will carefully socialize and obedience train the dog. The breed’s natural agility makes it one of the most capable canine climbers so good fencing is a must for this breed. The APBT is not the best choice for a guard dog since they are extremely friendly, even with strangers. Aggressive behavior toward humans is uncharacteristic of the breed and highly undesirable. This breed does very well in performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work.
> 
> Disqualifications: Viciousness or extreme shyness.


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## Reese9 (Jan 11, 2012)

I work with a girl who has the sweetest pitbull I have ever met. She would't hurt a fly. It all comes down to how the dog was trained. There is no such thing as a bad dog - just bad owners.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This had me smiling this evening (after a long day and a 2 hour drive home thanks to traffic) -

Foster Dog Saves Man's Life | Life With Dogs
*
Guys, this is not intended to revive the arguments from a week ago* and I'm sorry if this is sideways away from the original topic.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Reese9 said:


> I work with a girl who has the sweetest pitbull I have ever met. She would't hurt a fly. It all comes down to how the dog was trained. There is no such thing as a bad dog - just bad owners.


Yeah, I'm sure the grey wolf, dingo, and hyena would make great companions provided they are raised in loving homes. 

I'm sure all of the pitbull attacks have only been from terrible owners! :uhoh:


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## Primehns (Jul 13, 2013)

Pitbull's are prone to dog aggression, i know many. It's not the breed, it the owner's, for being irresponsible, and letting that happen. Many pitbulls may be dominant, you just have to restrain and control them. I don't understand why people bash pitbull's so much. I think the owner should be fined, and banned from owning dog's for a while, and the other dog's rehabilitated. I understand this a golden retriever forum, and many people are probably scared of big dog's on here but i don't understand why. Stella a pitbull is no more wolf than your golden retriever is, just because you are scared of the breed, doesn't mean they are dangerous. You hear of a power breed, and consider them dangerous. A golden retriever is one of the softer dog breeds, and i love them for it, and if you did some research on the breed, you'd know they have only been from bad owner's, but a pitbull can have dog aggression, it is common in many canines. Not all dog's are like golden retrievers, that is why you must be dedicated to owning a "real" dog.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

Primehns said:


> ... I understand this a golden retriever forum, and many people are probably scared of big dog's on here but i don't understand why.


First, Golden retrievers are just as "big" as pitbulls.

Second, It's just common knowledge that when it comes to "domestic" dog attacks, pitbull attacks are the most gruesome and/or fatal. That's why people are scared of pitbulls. Just use google image to see pictures of some of the damage cause by pitbulls. Click here: https://www.google.com/search?q=pit...urce=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=mqThUd-YEKXGywGGqoCIDQ

You can blame the owners all you want, but the fact is the pitbull did the biting, not the owner. Often from loving owners who say "s/he has never done anything like that before"! If a child gets maimed by a pitbull it doesn't matter if it's the owner's or dog's fault to that child when they are dead or disabled. 

Too many pitbulls resemble a loaded pistol with legs that can spontaneously aim and fire all on it's own. Sure, if you own such a weapon you shouldn't take it out in public, but what happens when it accidentally runs out the front door.



Primehns said:


> Not all dog's are like golden retrievers, that is why you must be dedicated to owning a "real" dog.


So Golden's are not "real" dogs? What makes them less of a dog than a pitbull?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This had me smiling yesterday... and I think that if people focused on more positive aspects of dogs, it will help them get over their fears of dogs and personal issues. 

Foster Dog Saves Man's Life | Life With Dogs
*
Guys, this is not intended to revive the arguments from a week ago*.


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

Seems I'm resurrecting an old post but seems still relevant. I don't hate pitbulls - i hate irresponsible pitbull owners. So as we know goldens are overly friendly. It was probably my fault as we crossed paths with an oncoming walker as my boy went over to say hello. Of course this pitbull did not care for that and went on FULL attack mode. Luckily we both got hold of our pups and none were injured.

Worse part - (besides the almost attack) was the pitbull owner's SMIRK. She didn't care that her dog was reactive. She never apologized for her pup.

Just shocked rn. I carry pepper spray for these instances but does anyone have any recommendations?


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

MintChip said:


> Seems I'm resurrecting an old post but seems still relevant. I don't hate pitbulls - i hate irresponsible pitbull owners. So as we know goldens are overly friendly. It was probably my fault as we crossed paths with an oncoming walker as my boy went over to say hello. Of course this pitbull did not care for that and went on FULL attack mode. Luckily we both got hold of our pups and none were injured.
> 
> Worse part - (besides the almost attack) was the pitbull owner's SMIRK. She didn't care that her dog was reactive. She never apologized for her pup.
> 
> Just shocked rn. I carry pepper spray for these instances but does anyone have any recommendations?


I NEVER let my dogs approach strange dogs on or off leash. Too many issues and too many owners who think their dogs need to say hi to everyone. My male does not appreciate random dogs charging up to him and getting in his personal space, rightfully so. So we just avoid those situations all together. And if we encounter an out of control off leash dog, I try to block my dogs with my body.

Don’t get me wrong I’ve meet plenty of sweet as can be pits, but let’s not forget what the original purpose of breeding these dogs was…to pit and bull fight.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Uggg, agreed. Allowing your dog to go up to a strange pit bull to meet and greet is like giving a toddler a loaded gun. Can't blame the gun.


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

Emmdenn said:


> I NEVER let my dogs approach strange dogs on or off leash. Too many issues and too many owners who think their dogs need to say hi to everyone. My male does not appreciate random dogs charging up to him and getting in his personal space, rightfully so. So we just avoid those situations all together. And if we encounter an out of control off leash dog, I try to block my dogs with my body.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong I’ve meet plenty of sweet as can be pits, but let’s not forget what the original purpose of breeding these dogs was…to pit and bull fight.


Oh I know. I had him on lead and before I knew it he was there. I share a fence with a reactive dog and pup still goes over to check him out. My puppy is never alone in the yard but geez reactive dog is growling and he sits there. "smiling." He has no street smarts, whatsoever so I have to recall him to my side.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

MintChip said:


> I had him on lead and before I knew it he was there.


Coming from the other side of this coin, though, I encourage you to see things from the perspective of the reactive dog's owner. Reactive dogs still need exercise. Reactive dogs still deserve to share leashed dog areas. If a dog is aggressive, for sure it should be muzzled in public, but most reactive dogs are bark (lunging, barking, etc) and are not really aggressive. They deserve to exist in public spaces without being harassed by an overly friendly dog. 

A huge part of working thru reactivity is to bring your reactive dog right under it's threshold and create positive experiences and encounters b/c overtime and repetition, these positive experiences help the dog decrease the threshold (radius of personal space needed) in which they are OK being around other dogs. 

My Bear became reactive after he had poor interactions with two dogs on walks during a post-op recovery period. It took me about a YEAR to get him to a place where he could exist in public, right next to dogs, and be under his threshold. In big part to building confidence that his personal space would be respected. His biggest positive change was getting back into group training with owners who don't allow dogs to greet each other. Bear had hours and hours and hours of positive experiences around other dogs where everyone respected his personal space. 

Just something else to think about. Please always maintain control of your dog. Being on leash doesn't always equal control of your dog. My girls are put in Sit Stays (or in the case of Molly, her collar is moved up to behind her ears and I give her zero leash to make a fool of herself) when we encounter people in public, until the people pass. The girls do not get to greet dogs, or people. They are to ignore all beings that are not me. The people and other animals out and about that we run across deserve that respect from myself and my dogs. 

You can't tell at a glance whose OK with dogs, so it's best to operate on the assumption that NO ONE and NOTHING is ok to meet your dogs until the other party reaches out to you (and even then, if another walker says they want my dogs to greet theirs on leash it's a big NO b/c of the inherent risks with dogs tangling on leash).


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

Brave said:


> Coming from the other side of this coin, though, I encourage you to see things from the perspective of the reactive dog's owner. Reactive dogs still need exercise. Reactive dogs still deserve to share leashed dog areas. If a dog is aggressive, for sure it should be muzzled in public, but most reactive dogs are bark (lunging, barking, etc) and are not really aggressive. They deserve to exist in public spaces without being harassed by an overly friendly dog.
> 
> A huge part of working thru reactivity is to bring your reactive dog right under it's threshold and create positive experiences and encounters b/c overtime and repetition, these positive experiences help the dog decrease the threshold (radius of personal space needed) in which they are OK being around other dogs.
> 
> ...


I completely understand and am not judging owners of reactive dogs. I used to fervently apologize after my dog used to jump on people. And I freeze up when an off leash dog approaches us. It was just weird I received no response/verbal reaction from the pittie owner. She was smiling. That's what got me.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

MintChip said:


> I completely understand and am not judging owners of reactive dogs. I used to fervently apologize after my dog used to jump on people. And I freeze up when an off leash dog approaches us. It was just weird I received no response/verbal reaction from the pittie owner. She was smiling. That's what got me.


She might be abiding by the "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all" b/c goodness knows I wanted to cuss some people out when their off leash dogs came over to Bear to say hi during walks... cause it set us back in the training.  But if these are you neighbors, it's sometimes smarter to not be hot headed cause you gotta live in this neighborhood with these people.


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

Brave said:


> She might be abiding by the "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything at all" b/c goodness knows I wanted to cuss some people out when their off leash dogs came over to Bear to say hi during walks... cause it set us back in the training.  But if these are you neighbors, it's sometimes smarter to not be hot headed cause you gotta live in this neighborhood with these people.


I found being goldens - everyone wants to say hi to them! I typically wait to see if the owner is "available" but my boy got away from me. The pittie was a red brindle so I think I was staring - thinking it was a golden lab from far away. Thanks for your insight and hope everything is going well with Brave.


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