# FARMINA, DCM and WSAVA Approved Foods



## CAROLINA MOM

Bumping up


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## cwag

Sorry I don't have any experience with these brands. We have had good success with Pro Plan Large Breed Puppy and Adult and Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy. Pro Plan has a Sensitive Skin and Stomach that might work. Are there other options for vets near you?


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## Tahnee GR

I am not sure why Farmina may not meet the guidelines. Most companies fail on the question of 

#1 Do you employ a full time qualified nutritionist? Appropriate qualifications are either a PhD in animal nutrition or board-certification by the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) or the European College of Veterinary Comparative Nutrition (ECVCN). What is this nutritionist’s name and qualifications? (Many dog food companies employ consultants who work for a number of companies rather than work as actual employees developing foods for the company.)

I did check the group on Facebook, and according to Dr. Stern, they did not have a board certified veterinary nutritionist on board as of June. There is a good discussion of Farmina on the Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers FB group initiated by Sydney Waring on June 4, 2018.

I feed ProPlan Sport and my dogs have always done well on it. Many of my puppies are on ProPlan Sensitive Skin and Stomach. They don't Have issues but don’t need the extra calories in the Sport version.


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## jennretz

Two similar topics going at the same time...

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...ing-recipes/504526-wolfsblut-farmina-dcm.html


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## raidergirl

There are many vets in my area, but it's hard to find a good one. I did have an amazing vet clinic nearby with most of the vets UC Davis grads (about an hour from me) but they were bought out by VCA and it's never been the same since. Vets are given too little time to treat their patients and prices have done nothing but increase greatly.


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## Briarwoodgoldens8

There are no WSAVA approved foods per se. There are foods that meet WSAVA guidelines though. Farmina does not meet WSAVA guidelines for one reason because they do not perform scientific feeding trials. Currently there are 5 brands that meet WSAVA guidelines and there are more to follow hopefully in the future if food producers hire full-time board certified animal nutritionists and qualified personnel to handle this work. There is a discussion on this topic on Facebook called Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy and the group has over 1000 veterinary professionals, nutritionists and about 22,500 members so far. Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/


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## Briarwoodgoldens8

Tahnee GR said:


> I am not sure why Farmina may not meet the guidelines.


Farmina claims that they do not perform scientific feeding trials. They send food home and use that method in lieu of real scientific feeding trials in a someone controlled environment where no other foods, treats or incidental nutrients are part of the mix.


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## azeast

What are the five brands that meet WSAVA criteria?


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## debbie624

I am wondering the same. Hopefully someone here can comment. I am starting to really research this as I am waiting for the next puppy.


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## ArchersMom

Purina Pro Plan meets the WSAVA guidelines as does Royal Canin. I'd go with PPP personally. I still really like the Farmina Ancestral grain but I also rotate manufacturers and formulas regularly so my dogs change food every 2-3 months.


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## jennretz

ArchersMom said:


> Purina Pro Plan meets the WSAVA guidelines as does Royal Canin. I'd go with PPP personally. I still really like the Farmina Ancestral grain but I also rotate manufacturers and formulas regularly so my dogs change food every 2-3 months.




I’ve had Charlie and Rocky on Farmina AG for a couple of months now. We’re still having some issues with loose stools and bad gas. Not going to switch anything until after Charlie’s next echo.


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## Maggie'sVoice

ArchersMom said:


> Purina Pro Plan meets the WSAVA guidelines as does Royal Canin. I'd go with PPP personally. I still really like the Farmina Ancestral grain but I also rotate manufacturers and formulas regularly so my dogs change food every 2-3 months.



Just something to think about. Changing your dogs food that frequently means their skin and coat is always in flux. Changing foods will have the skin go through a change from the inside out which takes 4-6 weeks for the change to happen *think dry and changing to correct that). Then the coat can't change once outside the skin. You can have better oils on the skin to help the coat but not change the coat itself. So short hair dogs take 8-10 weeks to grow out a full coat and a long hair dog can take up to 5 months. It's what grows out of the corrected skin is where you get a changed coat. So foods that aren't designed to change or switching brands should be done every 8-10 months at best. You will notice a better coat generally if you don't switch so often and let the good foods settle the system so to speak.


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## ArchersMom

That's fine, but they have lovely coats and we haven't had a single skin issue among the 4 of them. They do really well.


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## debbie624

ArchersMom said:


> Purina Pro Plan meets the WSAVA guidelines as does Royal Canin. I'd go with PPP personally. I still really like the Farmina Ancestral grain but I also rotate manufacturers and formulas regularly so my dogs change food every 2-3 months.


I rotated Callie's food every 3 or 4 weeks. Her coat was beautiful and no real issues with scratching or dry skin. Really, she was quite healthy. We rotated between Fromm and Zignature mostly and all grain free. She ate kibble 2 meals a day, and Instinct Raw once a day. Unfortunately the research on DCM came out the day after we lost her. I don't believe it was DCM that caused her to pass as the ER vet believed was a blood clot due to the TTA surgery 3 weeks prior. But my question now is what do I feed the new puppy when she comes. I am reading Farmina is good and this was recommended by the health food pet store we shopped at. But its a boutique food which many are saying to avoid the boutique food bc of lack of nutritionists on staff to do testing. Do you worry about this? Have you tested your goldens for DCM? I would like to do what you are doing, rotating Purina Pro Plan (since this is recommended by Dr. Stern) with more holistic brands like Farmina or OPen Farm. Would love your thoughts and anyone else here in this thread. Thanks


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## ArchersMom

I don't worry about it personally, but I've also never fed a grain free food. I haven't done any DCM testing but my youngest goes for an echocardiogram in a few months. Farmina Ancestral grain includes grain and that's the only line I've tried. I think it meets all but one of the guidelines and I really like the brand after speaking with several Golden retriever breeders whom feed it to all of their dogs. Id see if PPP works for your puppy and then you can always talk to your vet about rotating if you want to try it.


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## debbie624

ArchersMom said:


> I don't worry about it personally, but I've also never fed a grain free food. I haven't done any DCM testing but my youngest goes for an echocardiogram in a few months. Farmina Ancestral grain includes grain and that's the only line I've tried. I think it meets all but one of the guidelines and I really like the brand after speaking with several Golden retriever breeders whom feed it to all of their dogs. Id see if PPP works for your puppy and then you can always talk to your vet about rotating if you want to try it.


Thanks. And one more question. Do you feed a PPP specifically for puppies or the sport one? I've read here that some people are feeding the sport PPP to puppies. With Callie, I made sure the phosphorus, I believe, was balanced with something else (I dont remember) to make sure she didn't grow too fast which would put her at risk of bone or ligament problems. Was recommended by the owner of my health food pet store.


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## ArchersMom

It's probably calcium ratio that they talked about. I did do the PPP Sport after 6 months. I haven't checked their puppy formulas yet but I need to.


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## Maggie'sVoice

For Large Breed puppy food you want a not higher then a 1.4:1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus. Phos inhibits calcium absorption. The ratio can be 1.1:1 to 1.4:1. Regular puppy food and adult foods can be as much as 2:1.


Also, Phosphorus should never be above .8% (.9% on a dry matter basis) or you run the risk of kidney disease down the road as it's not protein that cause the kidney disease but the phosphorus in the protein.


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## Briarwoodgoldens8

Currently the 5 that meet WSAVA guidelines are Iams, Eukanuba, Purina, Royal Canin and Hills. More details here.. https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/


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## Maggie'sVoice

Kinda surprised that Nutro didn't meet WSAVA guidelines. You'd figure the big 5 (US Foods as RC is French) Iams/Euk, Nutro, Hills, Purina would all meet the guidelines.


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## debbie624

So I am a bit confused. I just looked at the ingredients for PPP Focus and peas are in the ingredients and peas are a legume and my understanding is that you don't want legumes in the food bc it blocks taurine which could lead to DCM. I know its not that black and white but if legumes could be problematic, then why would the researchers recommend PPP when it has legumes? Any thoughts??


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## DblTrblGolden2

The answer that I was given, and I’m not positive it’s correct is that there have been no DCM cases found on the Purina diets. They appear to have had some low taurine results, but no DCM.


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## Cpc1972

Our last golden was on nutro. When all this heart trouble with goldens showed up I noticed it has a lot of peas and lagunes.


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## Maggie'sVoice

@Cpc1972 I meant the regular Nutro not the Ultra or grain free diets. 


@DblTrblGolden2 As far as the peas... Dr Stern mentions to keep the number of legumes to a minimum and out of the top 10 ingredients. My food is Precise holistic and has 1 pea ingredient at #17 in the list and no other legumes and my dogs whole blood came back at just over 360 (can't remember if it was 363 or 368)


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## debbie624

Maggie'sVoice said:


> @Cpc1972 I meant the regular Nutro not the Ultra or grain free diets.
> 
> 
> @DblTrblGolden2 As far as the peas... Dr Stern mentions to keep the number of legumes to a minimum and out of the top 10 ingredients. My food is Precise holistic and has 1 pea ingredient at #17 in the list and no other legumes and my dogs whole blood came back at just over 360 (can't remember if it was 363 or 368)


Eric, do you know if Precise Holistic meets the WSAVA requirements, do they do testing and do they have a nutritionist on staff? I also don't remember what number the taurine blood test results should be at. I am assuming that 360 is a good number?


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## Briarwoodgoldens8

*Everything being asked above is being or has been answered on the Taurine Discussion*

Everything being asked above is being or has been answered on the Taurine-Deficient Nutritional DCM Discussion on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/


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## jennretz

Briarwoodgoldens8 said:


> Everything being asked above is being or has been answered on the Taurine-Deficient Nutritional DCM Discussion on Facebook.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/



You are correct, but there is so much information on there it can be overwhelming to begin looking.


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## jennretz

Curious if Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Selected Protein Adult PR Dry Dog Food meets guidelines...

https://www.chewy.com/royal-canin-veterinary-diet-selected/dp/35131

ETA: Just spoke with Royal Canin and they confirmed this formulation meets the WSAVA guidelines. This might be an option for Duke (my IBD guy), but she's steering me towards the Hydrolyzed Protein (which Duke is already on) for Charlie as well due to the higher taurine and lower sodium. It's hard to fine a solution that works for 3 different dogs and doesn't break the bank.


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## jennretz

Charlie's cardiologist recommended the following link for those who are interested in understanding sodium impact. Looks like a good resource.

Feeding the Cardiac Patient


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## Missy Albrecht

Purina, Hills, Royal Canin and Eukanuba are the one’s i keep hearing everywhere including the facebook groups for DCM and taurine. If there is another i don’t know what it is sorry.


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## MydogThea

Missy Albrecht said:


> Purina, Hills, Royal Canin and Eukanuba are the one’s i keep hearing everywhere including the facebook groups for DCM and taurine. If there is another i don’t know what it is sorry.


Iams is also considered ok.


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## Maggie'sVoice

That's because Iams is the parent company of Eukanuba which Mars company bought from Proctor & Gamble back in 2014


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## Missy Albrecht

You want to avoid any peas, legumes, pulses and potato's. Peas are the most suspect in what I have been seeing. ppp does have dogs with low taurine levels. I would really put that in the watch out for list. Maybe some varieties don't have the suspect foods. I would check the ingredients. On the wsava list or not, we already know their is an issue with those ingredients. That is just my opinion. Hills also has a few varieties with peas in it to. Best to be safe


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## SammysMom

I have read the info on the Facebook page until my eyes bled. Trying to wrap my head around feeding foods with one meat source and lots of corn. Good luck to all of us.


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## debbie624

Agreed. It is so overwhelming and confusing. And companies seem to contradict themselves. I'm part of the FB group and they all seem to feed PPP, royal canin, the ones recommended by researchers and I am afraid to ask questions as to why for instance Purina has peas as number 3 ingredient in some of their foods, while they say this is suspect ingredient, yet they recommend it. It is maddening. I'm down to the wire now with deciding on food bc our new puppy is coming home Saturday much to our surprise bc our breeder had an unexpected pup available. My breeder is feeding the puppies PPP Focus adult which is for adults and not all life stages which confuses me. I will ask when we pick her up. My head is spinning with all the info out there.


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## Maggie'sVoice

debbie624 said:


> Agreed. It is so overwhelming and confusing. And companies seem to contradict themselves. I'm part of the FB group and they all seem to feed PPP, royal canin, the ones recommended by researchers and I am afraid to ask questions as to why for instance Purina has peas as number 3 ingredient in some of their foods, while they say this is suspect ingredient, yet they recommend it. It is maddening. I'm down to the wire now with deciding on food bc our new puppy is coming home Saturday much to our surprise bc our breeder had an unexpected pup available. My breeder is feeding the puppies PPP Focus adult which is for adults and not all life stages which confuses me. I will ask when we pick her up. My head is spinning with all the info out there.


Debbie, don't fret or panic just because there puppy is coming home Saturday (OMG tomorrow!) Because no matter what, you will be feeding what the puppy is eating now for the first 2 weeks and then you can start the switch to what you decide on.
So you have time still.

Edit:
Also do NOT feed an all life stages food. By definition that is a small breed puppy food. The small breed dog has the highest nutritional and energy requirements and therefore it has excesses for a large breed puppy. Not to mention you are only feeding more or less of the same food and vitamins, not the different levels a puppy needs compared to an adult dog.


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## jennretz

Just on update on our journey. Duke and Rocky are doing well on Royal Canin Rabbit. Charlie doesn’t like it so I’ve resorted to adding 2 patties of Stella and Chewy’s rabbit. I think we’re going to have to find another food for Charlie unfortunately. I’m actually considering Purina Pro Plan Salmon and Rice. It’s a higher calorie food though and he needs to lose weight, not gain it....

I’ve finally wrapped my mind around this is a journey and it’s not a situation where you find one food and you’re done. That being said, I don’t want to keep switching them either.


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## Maggie'sVoice

jennretz said:


> Just on update on our journey. Duke and Rocky are doing well on Royal Canin Rabbit. Charlie doesn’t like it so I’ve resorted to adding 2 patties of Stella and Chewy’s rabbit. I think we’re going to have to find another food for Charlie unfortunately. I’m actually considering Purina Pro Plan Salmon and Rice. It’s a higher calorie food though and he needs to lose weight, not gain it....
> 
> I’ve finally wrapped my mind around this is a journey and it’s not a situation where you find one food and you’re done. That being said, I don’t want to keep switching them either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh no poor Bugs! Lol actually great news to hear jennretz!


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## Clipper's mom

Do all five of those wsava approved brands sell large breed puppy food? If not, which of them do? If more than one does, why not pick the most economical of the large puppy version of the approved brands? Am I missing something? (No puppy yet, just trying to get informed in advance.)


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## jomiel

Clipper's mom said:


> Do all five of those wsava approved brands sell large breed puppy food? If not, which of them do? If more than one does, why not pick the most economical of the large puppy version of the approved brands? Am I missing something? (No puppy yet, just trying to get informed in advance.)


Here are links to the large breed puppy food from the 5 brands on Chewy (I also included the RC GR puppy that I'm going to feed in addition to Fromms large breed puppy gold):

Purina Pro Plan Focus Puppy Large Breed - https://www.chewy.com/purina-pro-plan-focus-puppy-large/dp/52425
Hills Science Diet Puppy Large Breed - https://www.chewy.com/hills-science-diet-puppy-large-breed/dp/34115
Iams ProActive Health Smart Puppy Large Breed - https://www.chewy.com/iams-proactive-health-smart-puppy/dp/48910
Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy - https://www.chewy.com/eukanuba-large-breed-puppy-dry-dog/dp/118433
Royal Canin Large Puppy - https://www.chewy.com/royal-canin-large-puppy-dry-dog-food/dp/48263
Royal Canin Golden Retriever Puppy - https://www.chewy.com/royal-canin-golden-retriever-puppy/dp/48335


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## MKDuBois

This is an answer to a question I have had.


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## Snoop Bobb

I'm not sure what qualifies as "extensive experience." We brought home a golden retriever pup in February, and I've been feeding our puppy the Farmina Ancestral Grain (i.e., low grain) puppy kibbles ever since we brought her home. When we went to the vet to give our pup her last round of shots, in an overabundance of caution, we had a bunch of blood tests done, including the ridiculously expensive taurine test. The test came back great; taurine levels were right in the middle of the range. Does that mean anything? Who knows. But, the results at least provided some temporary peace of mind, even if it's perhaps misplaced peace of mind. The pup seems to like the Farmina kibble (the chicken more than the lamb). My only gripe about the Ancestral Grain kibble is that the maxi-breed kibble is unavailable locally and can be difficult to find online.

I too spent a ton of time researching dog foods. There's a ton of information, very little *scientific* information, and the scientific information isn't concretely helpful. (There's way too much wiggle room in the analysis and conclusions to glean any concrete takeaways, and because of that, you have dog food companies quibbling about whether the percentages of peas and potatoes that they use in their food could potentially cause problems.) I'm hoping that someday a benevolent billionaire who loves this breed will donate millions of dollars to fund research to help clarify this stuff. If I hit the MegaMillions jackpot, I hereby commit to do that.... 

If you have any specific questions, just let me know.


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## SammysMom

I just re-read my reply from April. Wow! What I didn’t know then. 
Golden’s run low taurine levels, you want them to be at the high end of normal and beyond. 
Join the Facebook Taurine Deficiency in Golden Retrievers group. Read Dr Stern’s study of Golden’s with DCM here at UC Davis. It’s eye opening and heartbreaking. Dogs of all breeds dying from this every day. 
I was feeding a grain food but lots of legumes. Had an echo done which fortunately was normal. Switched him to Royal Canin Golden Retriever food. 
Read the FDA announcement about nutritional Dilated CardioMyopathy. Switch to one of the 5 brands of food that are tested and nutritionally balanced. 
We know nothing about dog food nutrition- and neither does Dog Food Advisor. Corn is good if formulated correctly. By products are wonderful if formulated correctly b
If your dog gets DCM the guilt you will carry will be horrendous. Our dogs deserve better.


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## debbie624

raidergirl said:


> Earlier this year I posted on this website as I was dealing with a puppy that had a HORRIBLE reaction to Royal Canin GR puppy food. After almost 2 months I successfully switched him to Zignature at the advice of a pet food store owner. I now have just found out about DCM and it appears Zignature fed dogs have a very high percentage of dogs with DCM. Joined the Facebook group and have read about which foods meet the WSAVA guidelines. Rotal Canin, ProPlan and Eukanuba.
> 
> Royal Canin is out for me due to the previous experience and I've read some dogs have had a hard time transitioning to ProPlan. I feel better about the ingredients in the Farmina Cod, but I may be letting my past view of Purina foods cloud my judgement to be honest.
> 
> With the horrendous time we had trying to switch him to a new food I want to make sure I'm not just switching him to a food that made sense to me as a human, but may not be in the best interest of my dog, as I have found out with Zignature.
> 
> For what it's worth, his vet is not up on he DCM issue (I had to send them the link to the UC Davis website in order to send sample in for taurine testing.) As a matter of fact, when I brought my puppy in for his first exam I was told make sure he gets large breed puppy food- any large breed puppy food is fine. Just this week I overhead the receptionist telling a customer on the phone "any dog food you can get at PetSmart is good- they only carry really good food."
> 
> Does anyone have extensive experience with feeding Farmina to their Golden's? I'd love to hear the good and the bad as well so I can make an informed decision. Also, does anyone know exactly why it is NOT approved by WSAVA? Any red flags?


I have been following this thread for a couple of months and wondering if you decided if you will be feeding Farmina. I continue to vacillate between PPP and Farmina or Open Farm. I am still totally confused as to what to feed and who is "right" when it comes to all the info out there on DCM. The studies that are being done appear to be anecdotal and not true double-blind studies which is the gold standard in doing research. However, I don't know if there really is any other way of conducting this research other than anecdotal where people are reporting to the FDA on cases of DCM and the dog's diet. And the FDA is still saying there is nothing definitive on cause and effect here. They still don't know. They recommend not feeding high legume foods and not boutique foods. Some dogs are having DCM and normal taurine levels. It isn't just an issue of legumes, there could be something with an unknown factor inherent to boutique foods. It just is so confusing. I currently am feeding Coco PPP Focus large breed puppy. I wanted to switch to Farmina. The owner of the health food pet store that I go to and trust contacted her Farmina rep for me to find out if they do feeding trials and if they employ a vet nutritionist and the answer was "yes" to both. Yet I read elsewhere that they do not do trials. Do these companies or others including the big 5 have their food tested to say that what is on the label is truly what's in the bag? Like independent laboratories does for human supplements for instance? So frustrating.


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## Maggie'sVoice

debbie624 said:


> I have been following this thread for a couple of months and wondering if you decided if you will be feeding Farmina. I continue to vacillate between PPP and Farmina or Open Farm. I am still totally confused as to what to feed and who is "right" when it comes to all the info out there on DCM. The studies that are being done appear to be anecdotal and not true double-blind studies which is the gold standard in doing research. However, I don't know if there really is any other way of conducting this research other than anecdotal where people are reporting to the FDA on cases of DCM and the dog's diet. And the FDA is still saying there is nothing definitive on cause and effect here. They still don't know. They recommend not feeding high legume foods and not boutique foods. Some dogs are having DCM and normal taurine levels. It isn't just an issue of legumes, there could be something with an unknown factor inherent to boutique foods. It just is so confusing. I currently am feeding Coco PPP Focus large breed puppy. I wanted to switch to Farmina. The owner of the health food pet store that I go to and trust contacted her Farmina rep for me to find out if they do feeding trials and if they employ a vet nutritionist and the answer was "yes" to both. Yet I read elsewhere that they do not do trials. Do these companies or others including the big 5 have their food tested to say that what is on the label is truly what's in the bag? Like independent laboratories does for human supplements for instance? So frustrating.


So, no Feed trial has to be more then more than 6 months from start to finish unless it's a prescription diet then I believe that is a 5 year feed trial.

They also do not have to feed trial every formula. Companies are allowed to feed the adult and assume the results for the weight management or a different meat protein in the same will have the same results allowing a company to save money on multiple feed trials. I suspect this may change in time off the DCM issue.

There are 2 AAFCO statements. One will say "animal feed tests substantiate" making it went through a minimum 6 month free trial. The other will say "formulated to meet the requirements from AAFCO" meaning they formulated a food from the AAFCO guidelines and just went to market with it. The difference is "Animal Feed tests substantiate" and "formulated". A company that makes a formula change call still leave the "Animal feed tests substantiate" label on the bag while a new feed test is being done but after 6 months they have to have completed the form test or change the label to "Formulated"

Lots of trickiness that goes on based on the label laws of these bags which are governed by the FTC (Fair Trade Commission).

Also AAFCO, who is the ones that put forth the min and max nutrient profiles does not police these food companies, the food companies police themselves. For example Hills back in 2010 had done over 300 dog food analysis to make sure other companies food in The bag is what the guaranteed analysis for that food matches and if it doesn't, they contact that company and let them know. If a company ignores this, they will report that company to the FTC. They are the ones with the power by fining those companies until it is corrected.

This exact thing happened back then. Hills found that formulas of a certain company had way too high levels of vitamin D3 which the risk is damaging dogs livers. Hold contacted company, company ignored them and the FTC got involved and it wasn't until the FTC threatened a million dollar a day fine did they make the correction. 6 months later company had the recall of excessive vitamin D3 in that line from evidence of damaged livers in dogs eating it.


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## murphy1

Well,,,,my dog had the critically low taurine, after 6 1/2 years on Orijen and Acana. Echo was fine but cardiologist put him on taurine supplement and I switched to Fromm. This was last summer. After three months, his taurine was over 300.
I have been feeding him Farmina Ancestral Grain chicken. I know all about the wasva approval but the Farmina ingredients seems far superior in my eyes. More meat instead of mostly grain! 
The difference in his coat is miraculous, from coarse and wiry to soft with magnificent shine. All blood work is perfect. Energy, weight and poop are perfect. 
I've read all the information on the recommended foods, none of which I care for and I'll stick with Farmina. It's tough to find but if you call their 800 phone number, it will be shipped to you in a few days.


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## debbie624

Good to read you have had positive results with Farmina. Their ingredients as listed are far superior to what the big 4 companies are using. The only thing at this point with Farmina is that the ancestral grain does not have a puppy specific formula and I am concerned about feeding Coco an all stages food yet as she is only 20 weeks old. Is your dog an adults? Thanks for your feedback.


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## murphy1

My guy hit the age of seven in April.


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## murphy1

But Farmina has a puppy food!


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## mylissyk

debbie624 said:


> Good to read you have had positive results with Farmina. Their ingredients as listed are far superior to what the big 4 companies are using. The only thing at this point with Farmina is that the ancestral grain does not have a puppy specific formula and I am concerned about feeding Coco an all stages food yet as she is only 20 weeks old. Is your dog an adults? Thanks for your feedback.


Farmina Ancestral Grain has a puppy food in that line.

https://www.farmina.com/us/dog-food...hicken-&-pomegranate-puppy-medium-&-maxi.html


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## Maggie'sVoice

I don't think that puppy food is one I would choose for my pups. The bag reads well ingredient wise but some things concern me. That is a lot of protein and fat in that Farmina puppy food. Max protein and fat for even a small breed puppy food is supposed to be 30/16. Large breed puppies ideal levels are between 24/12 and 26/14 and phosphorous is above the higher end of the range of .4% to .8% at .91% which is what leads to kidney disease (excess phosphorus, not the protein but the phos in the protein). Ash is high too above 6% (7.3%). This means lesser quality meats and ash is what leads to stones/crystals in the urine.


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## debbie624

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I don't think that puppy food is one I would choose for my pups. The bag reads well ingredient wise but some things concern me. That is a lot of protein and fat in that Farmina puppy food. Max protein and fat for even a small breed puppy food is supposed to be 30/16. Large breed puppies ideal levels are between 24/12 and 26/14 and phosphorous is above the higher end of the range of .4% to .8% at .91% which is what leads to kidney disease (excess phosphorus, not the protein but the phos in the protein). Ash is high too above 6% (7.3%). This means lesser quality meats and ash is what leads to stones/crystals in the urine.


thanks Eric. Good to know. Coco is still eating PPP large breed puppy. She weighs in at 21 pounds now at 20 weeks. Do you like the regular Farmina Ancestral Grain formula once a pup becomes an adult? I don't remember at what age did you transition Maggie to adult food? Also, how much did she weigh at Coco's age? I worry Coco doesn't weigh enough but our vet seems fine with her weight. I am feeding 3 cups of food a day divided into 3 meals.


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## Maggie'sVoice

debbie624 said:


> thanks Eric. Good to know. Coco is still eating PPP large breed puppy. She weighs in at 21 pounds now at 20 weeks. Do you like the regular Farmina Ancestral Grain formula once a pup becomes an adult? I don't remember at what age did you transition Maggie to adult food? Also, how much did she weigh at Coco's age? I worry Coco doesn't weigh enough but our vet seems fine with her weight. I am feeding 3 cups of food a day divided into 3 meals.



Maggie was about the same weight as Coco at 20 weeks I think about 19 pounds (she topped out at 58 pounds). I transitioned her to adult food about 9-10 months old. That is also all I fed was 3 cups until I moved her to adult and then it was about 2-3 depending on how active she was and if she lost a pound I would bump it up. I only use the bag as a guideline. feed whatever amount maintains her weight. Don't worry about her weight overall, watch her body condition. Keep her lean while still growing keeps stress off their joints as they develop. It's usually easier to put a pound or 2 on then to take if off. and a study Purina did about 10-15 years ago shows that a dog just 5 pounds overweight can reduce their life by 2.5 years and being under by 5 pounds can extend their life by 2.5 years.


As far as Farmina goes I did look at back in December here (5th post)

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...ing-recipes/504526-wolfsblut-farmina-dcm.html


That food was the puppy food so the difference I would point out to the adult is the Phosphorus is better in the adult at .8% which is in the range of .4 to .8% but at the high end of that range. The Ash content is better at 6.8% in the adult food, and I mistyped saying "I'm just a big fan of companies that try to be smarter then they are and try to add ingredients that others don't have to say they have unique ingredients" That obviously was meant to say I am NOT an big fan. Companies that try to use odd or unique ingredients when they don't have too (like the fructooligosaccharide) to try and differentiate themselves I see as trying to reinvent the wheel, they just end up outsmarting themselves. and this is how we got into the situation we're in with the DCM issue.



I'm just looking around some more and on Farmina's site it shows the adult Chicken and Pomegranate Maxi has a min 8.0% phosphorus and on chewy's site it is showing new formulation and a MIN of 9.5% phosphorus which is way to high to start with as it's a min and can be even more. I would take what Farmina's site as to be correct.


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## debbie624

Thanks Eric. Yes, I question the addition of fructooligosaccharides as well worried about it producing excess gas and then risk of bloat. fructooligosaccharides are added as a prebiotic for the probiotic which is not uncommon in the probiotic world for humans or animals. But it crossed my mind in terms of possibly causing gas. I think I will look further into the Precise Holistic that you are feeding. I think I will also likely keep Coco on PPP as a rotational food with the more holistic brands just because I am afraid not to in terms of DCM.


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## Maggie'sVoice

debbie624 said:


> Thanks Eric. Yes, I question the addition of fructooligosaccharides as well worried about it producing excess gas and then risk of bloat. fructooligosaccharides are added as a prebiotic for the probiotic which is not uncommon in the probiotic world for humans or animals. But it crossed my mind in terms of possibly causing gas. I think I will look further into the Precise Holistic that you are feeding. I think I will also likely keep Coco on PPP as a rotational food with the more holistic brands just because I am afraid not to in terms of DCM.


I've started feeding Nature's Variety Be Natural line (not the instinct line which in grain free) about 2 weeks ago. I was buying the Precise holistic 4-6 bags at a time (saved $8 a bag this way) and wasn't able to find it in stock anywhere). I have a few friends on the Nature's variety with their goldens and they've had no issues with DCM. Both have 4 goldens each and have had their dogs taurine tested and echos done as well. All clear. 

I'm going with that food for my friends success with it and the fact I also feed their frozen raw food as well. This food also allows to freely rotate the formulas in the same line without any skin/cost changes or digestive upsets.


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## cloesmia

Four of the five are: Purina, Eukanuba, Royal Canin, and Hills Science Diet. I can't remember the other one.


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## Aidan0311

I’ve read all the posts so far. I’m a new to golden’s And I had no clue about all their specific nutritional needs! I still don’t, but am trying to learn. Right now I’m feeding my 22week old PPP large breed puppy food. He eats 3 3/4 cups a day and is around 45lbs. I’m trying to figure out the best adult food to give him...very confusing! Maggie’s voice, you definitely know a lot about this stuff! So happy to have knowledgeable people like you on the site. I still have a few months to learn and will be following this thread for info. So far I’ve only been giving him his dog food and the occasional frozen banana, carrot or watermelon. I’m not opposed to giving him healthy human food/raw food... I just haven’t looked into that! I don’t know enough on how to incorporate that and balance calories/nutrients with PPP.


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## dogmomz

Snoop Bobb said:


> I'm not sure what qualifies as "extensive experience." We brought home a golden retriever pup in February, and I've been feeding our puppy the Farmina Ancestral Grain (i.e., low grain) puppy kibbles ever since we brought her home. When we went to the vet to give our pup her last round of shots, in an overabundance of caution, we had a bunch of blood tests done, including the ridiculously expensive taurine test. The test came back great; taurine levels were right in the middle of the range. Does that mean anything? Who knows. But, the results at least provided some temporary peace of mind, even if it's perhaps misplaced peace of mind. The pup seems to like the Farmina kibble (the chicken more than the lamb). My only gripe about the Ancestral Grain kibble is that the maxi-breed kibble is unavailable locally and can be difficult to find online.
> 
> I too spent a ton of time researching dog foods. There's a ton of information, very little *scientific* information, and the scientific information isn't concretely helpful. (There's way too much wiggle room in the analysis and conclusions to glean any concrete takeaways, and because of that, you have dog food companies quibbling about whether the percentages of peas and potatoes that they use in their food could potentially cause problems.) I'm hoping that someday a benevolent billionaire who loves this breed will donate millions of dollars to fund research to help clarify this stuff. If I hit the MegaMillions jackpot, I hereby commit to do that....
> 
> If you have any specific questions, just let me know.


My husband and I have been researching foods for the last 4 months. Our puppy is now 4 mos old and seems to be allergic to ProPlan which is wha the breeder was feeding him. After extensive research (more like a part time job), we've come across Farmina. Hopefully our pup will like the new food. Thank you for your valuable information.


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## jeffscott947

This should be of interest.

It was an eye opener for me!


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## jimgl

I am feeding our one year old golden Farmina Ancestral Grains formulas. Very happy with Farmina shipping and customer service.


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## goldwhiz

About Farmina, grain-inclusive or not.

Here's what expert nutritionists say: Ingredients are vehicles for delivering the *nutrients * your dog requires. So, yes, corn can help do this, not inherently bad. But did you know that lamb is more difficult to work with than chicken (a familiar protein)? And that the ingredients combo you choose must 'work & play well' together once inside the dog?? NO way you & I can judge that. 

A snap for me to read the published studies, but basically we are both amateurs. Rather important to do proper in-house feeding trials before any of its food is put on the shelves & sold. Considered the Gold Standard. Otherwise, my dogs & yours become Farmina's guinea pigs! 

There are other, safer bets, established companies, known for their research & published studies.
Purina, with its 13.2 billion marketshare, has ZERO dx'd DCM cases. The other big three co.s are in the same league. 

I'm a reformed food snob and a scientist - not a question of who's feeding what. I'm into facts. Your choice what to feed. Your choice what to believe about the usefulness of science. Whether to listen to expert opinion or not. 

DCM is all too often a silent disease, sometimes treatable (but very expensive to do that) and kills 20% of its victims.


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## Aidan0311

I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on TLC all stages life food. I’ve been following this thread and trying to figure out what to feed Aidan when he transitions to adult food. Right now he’s on PPP large breed. I was thinking I’d go with what Eric is feeding...the Natures instinct be natural line. Earlier today, a friend of mine came across this food and was wondering my thoughts. It looks like it has some really good ingredients, but I’m still learning all this so I thought I’d ask here. The ingredients look good, except I’m not sure about the green pea and taurine amounts. It seems you can’t get it in stores and is $64 for 30lbs.

https://www.tlcpetfood.com/dogfood/#whytlc


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## debbie624

Im still wondering too about Farmina. I've kept Coco (7 months) on PPP Focus large breed puppy. I started to slowly add in Farmina Ancestral grain N & D medium puppy spelt oats chicken pomegranate about 3 weeks ago. I give her 3/4 of her food is PPP and right now 1/4 is the Farmina. Not sure if I will completely switch to Farmina at this point. I just wanted to start to add in what in my opinion is higher quality food with better ingredients without dismissing PPP completely due to my anxiety about DCM. I have noticed that Coco has had gas a couple of times which is new for her. I wonder if it is the Farmina bc of the fructooligosaccharides. Has anyone else noticed this with the Farmina??


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## DblTrblGolden2

debbie624 said:


> Im still wondering too about Farmina. I've kept Coco (7 months) on PPP Focus large breed puppy. I started to slowly add in Farmina Ancestral grain N & D medium puppy spelt oats chicken pomegranate about 3 weeks ago. I give her 3/4 of her food is PPP and right now 1/4 is the Farmina. Not sure if I will completely switch to Farmina at this point. I just wanted to start to add in what in my opinion is higher quality food with better ingredients without dismissing PPP completely due to my anxiety about DCM. I have noticed that Coco has had gas a couple of times which is new for her. I wonder if it is the Farmina bc of the fructooligosaccharides. Has anyone else noticed this with the Farmina??


I tried the Farmina Ancestral Grains a year or 18 months ago for my older Golden. He was having allergy problems and I thought it may be a good alternative to the PPP line. He developed soft stools and the worst gas I have ever endured after I had fully transitioned. The stools seemed to get worse the longer he was on it. I ended up going back to the PPP line. He had never had stomach issues, and hasn't had them again. He is very allergic to chicken, hives and swelling. He was perfect on the PPP Sport Chicken & Rice until he turned 7 and started having issues. He's now on PPP SSS Lamb & Oat and doing well, but does have other health issues. I think the allergy was the start of an immune system problem beginning.


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## debbie624

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I tried the Farmina Ancestral Grains a year or 18 months ago for my older Golden. He was having allergy problems and I thought it may be a good alternative to the PPP line. He developed soft stools and the worst gas I have ever endured after I had fully transitioned. The stools seemed to get worse the longer he was on it. I ended up going back to the PPP line. He had never had stomach issues, and hasn't had them again. He is very allergic to chicken, hives and swelling. He was perfect on the PPP Sport Chicken & Rice until he turned 7 and started having issues. He's now on PPP SSS Lamb & Oat and doing well, but does have other health issues. I think the allergy was the start of an immune system problem beginning.


Thanks for your feedback. I have read others who have good things to say about this food. I like what the company says about the way they produce their food and the ingredients except for the addition of the fructooligosaccharide which can cause gas. I will keep a close eye and see how she does. Thanks. Hope your pup is doing better.


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## murphy1

I'm thrilled with Farmina Ancestral Grains Chicken. My guy has been on it for about a year, after critically low taurine, from Orijen. He is a well exercised 7 1/2 year old and has plenty of energy. His coat is now magnificent , soft and shiny, with Orijen it was wiry and coarse. I find the ingredients better than the big companies wasva pushes. To me the proof is in the pudding.


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## TuckersMamma

^^ as above mentioned ? .... TLC is where I’m headed (still tossing around Nature’s Variety Instincts Be Natural)..... *and what I’ve read online and suggested in here is go get your pup bloodwork done a few months (read 6) down the road after switching to have plasma drawn for taurine levels. Definitely proactive. 

Great advice on these threads ?


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## debbie624

TuckersMamma said:


> ^^ as above mentioned ? .... TLC is where I’m headed (still tossing around Nature’s Variety Instincts Be Natural)..... *and what I’ve read online and suggested in here is go get your pup bloodwork done a few months (read 6) down the road after switching to have plasma drawn for taurine levels. Definitely proactive.
> 
> Great advice on these threads ?


Im sorry, forgive me if I am being silly but I can't quite decipher your post here what you are trying to say. What is TLC?


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## Maggie'sVoice

It's a brand of food Debbie

https://www.tlcpetfood.com/dogfood/


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## debbie624

Maggie'sVoice said:


> It's a brand of food Debbie
> 
> https://www.tlcpetfood.com/dogfood/


Thanks Eric, Ive never heard of it.


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## TuckersMamma

debbie624 said:


> Maggie'sVoice said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a brand of food Debbie
> 
> https://www.tlcpetfood.com/dogfood/
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Eric, Ive never heard of it.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didn’t see your post. Thanks Eric! I use my iPhone and I have a feeling that I miss much lol. 

I just ordered it so I am going to give it a real go. I also plan as suggested to have Tucker’s Taurine levels checked around 6 months just to really give it a thorough evaluation. No guessing. But Eric also had a peek at the food which honestly gave me some comfort. But where I got wind of it was through a breeder (not mine) and exchanged emails and then some online digging in addition to their website that Eric provided above. Finally actually speaking with them and returned emails. Pretty impressed with it so far but now to put it to test. I am pleased that it’s made fresh. I am super pleased with the ingredients so far. I am satisfied it’s free shipping and I’ll have it in four days (they say). So we will see. It’s all stages so I am going to transition also with the thumbs up from my vet.


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## Maggie'sVoice

debbie624 said:


> Thanks Eric, Ive never heard of it.


Me either until someone PM'd me a couple days ago. I had to look into it.


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## Briarwoodgoldens8

Visit TaurineDCM.org for the latest...


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## TuckersMamma

Maggie'sVoice said:


> debbie624 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Eric, Ive never heard of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Me either until someone PM'd me a couple days ago. I had to look into it.
Click to expand...

Re: TLC. Here it is. I am doing a very slow transition (use up prior food and obvious caution for adjustments - and yes I even created a spreadsheet LOL). As it stands with a 3.5 cups per day base point currently, Tuck will end up at 3.25 cups per day and 80 kcals more. Begs to call to light how he does with less volume but it is better than what I am feeding him. We started transition last night and it’ll last about 16 days to convert. 

My vet is in the loop and I’m going to have his Tuarine level checked this week and again in 6 months. I’ll provide details for anyone interested, here. 

Super impressed so far with the customer service and the quick arrival to my door. It’s basically right off the line fresh and taste test (lol) super positive. 

Here we go. ??

Edit: comes in a case. Two 15 lb bags. Price tag is high at 63.95 for both. *free delivery

Also note that there are several websites when you google reviews that promote this (breeders and avid dogs lovers etc) and it’s not hard to find a link for a 5 dollar coupon for a first order which is what I did.


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## debbie624

TuckersMamma said:


> Re: TLC. Here it is. I am doing a very slow transition (use up prior food and obvious caution for adjustments - and yes I even created a spreadsheet LOL). As it stands with a 3.5 cups per day base point currently, Tuck will end up at 3.25 cups per day and 80 kcals more. Begs to call to light how he does with less volume but it is better than what I am feeding him. We started transition last night and it’ll last about 16 days to convert.
> 
> My vet is in the loop and I’m going to have his Tuarine level checked this week and again in 6 months. I’ll provide details for anyone interested, here.
> 
> Super impressed so far with the customer service and the quick arrival to my door. It’s basically right off the line fresh and taste test (lol) super positive.
> 
> Here we go. ??
> 
> Edit: comes in a case. Two 15 lb bags. Price tag is high at 63.95 for both. *free delivery
> 
> Also note that there are several websites when you google reviews that promote this (breeders and avid dogs lovers etc) and it’s not hard to find a link for a 5 dollar coupon for a first order which is what I did.


Thanks for the info. Yes, I would love if you could post the taurine levels. I am curious as to why you are testing this week as he just started on the food. Is this a well known food bc I have never heard of it. I will check into it as well. Do we know if they have a board certified canine nutritionist on staff and if they are doing food trials? I prefer not to feed the big 5 too and am looking for a quality alternative. Coco is only 7 months old and I haven't really decided at which point I should have her taurine tested. I was going to look for a cardiologist too and see how much it would be to do echocardiograms yearly since taurine tests can show normal taurine and not catch DCM is my understanding. Curious what others are doing here who are concerned about DCM.


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## Jessjack

FYI all: Peas are legumes. If you are in doubt, you can google the question : Are peas legumes ?, on your computer. You should also be able to find out which vegetables are considered legumes. 

Here is a question for you: Who would you trust the most for advice on dog food - a clerk in a pet food store, a certified animal nutritionist, or a good vet.

I would personally go for the science rather than how nice and responsive a company is and how great their delivery is. I also prefer a feed company that actually tests its products. But then, what do I know? I only have a degree in animal science with an emphasis in nutrition.


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## Snoop Bobb

These are totally fair concerns. As a point of interest, I specifically asked our puppy's vet about the protein / fat balance in the Farmina puppy kibble. She opined that the marginal difference between the balance that you find in Farmina and the balance that you find in most other premium foods with grain would unlikely "move the needle" either way in terms of creating marginal health problems or health benefits. For whatever it's worth, after eating Farmina puppy kibble for several months, our puppy's bloodwork all came back great. The vet did recommend that we keep an eye on the puppy's weight, as the higher protein content could lead to an unhealthy weight over time, which could lead to other problems. But, our puppy's weight has always been fine, and has been consistent with the weights of the other females in the same litter who are eating kibble with more standard protein / fat balances in their formulas.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Snoop Bobb said:


> These are totally fair concerns. As a point of interest, I specifically asked our puppy's vet about the protein / fat balance in the Farmina puppy kibble. She opined that the marginal difference between the balance that you find in Farmina and the balance that you find in most other premium foods with grain would unlikely "move the needle" either way in terms of creating marginal health problems or health benefits. For whatever it's worth, after eating Farmina puppy kibble for several months, our puppy's bloodwork all came back great. The vet did recommend that we keep an eye on the puppy's weight, as the higher protein content could lead to an unhealthy weight over time, which could lead to other problems. But, our puppy's weight has always been fine, and has been consistent with the weights of the other females in the same litter who are eating kibble with more standard protein / fat balances in their formulas.



With that answer from your vet, I wouldn't say your vet is the right person to ask about nutrition. It's not about blood work, that should overall be fine on a quality puppy food. That is because it's not really the protein and fat in the food you have to worry about most... it's the calcium and phosphorous ratio in the puppy food. A large breed puppy should have a Calhos ratio of 1.1:1 up to 1.4:1 at the max as too much Cal to Phos (a lot of reg puppy food can be up to 2:1) a food with too much Calhos can cause your dog to grow to fast for their joints, potentially leading to issues like Pano and hips dysplasia.


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## Vivi Feinstein

jennretz said:


> I’ve had Charlie and Rocky on Farmina AG for a couple of months now. We’re still having some issues with loose stools and bad gas. Not going to switch anything until after Charlie’s next echo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I just switched my 2 year old to farmina in Jan and she’s been having loose stools and gas too. It’s been almost two months do you think I should switch?


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## Maggie'sVoice

I'm general the presents of loose stools and gas is to much food it the system at once. For example, I used to feed Innova did food, not the Evo grain free like. That was VERY nutrient dense (540 kcals/cup). I feed 2 cups a day, almost 1100 kcals/day. The average golden or lab sized dog requires 900-1200 kcals a day depending on agree, metabolism, activity (Iditarod dogs will consume 10k kcals a day). Most foods I would have to feed up to 3 cups a day. If I feed 3 cups of Innova to my dog she would get loose, runny stools and gas. 

The more usable and higher calorie the food is the less you need to feed to get normal stools and no gas. What happens if the more usable the food you have to feed less so the system can digest it properly or it comes out loose. This is because the more digestible the food, the longer it takes to digest properly. There next make pushes it out as dogs have a significant shorter digestive tract then people do.

So the higher the quality and more digestable the food is the less you should feed to get normal stools. Most people switch to a better food and feed the same as the old food and wonder why their dogs don't do as well and have loose stools and are gassy. I've also seen were you feed to little food and worry it's not enough, what worked was kicking the food back up some and just breaking there food into 3 meals instead of 2 and the smaller meals does the trick.

This is more times that not the reason for the digestive issues. There are times when a dog just doesn't do well on a food, that certainly happens. But at first I would feed less, or more meals a day but the same total amount.


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## forgold

Vivi Feinstein said:


> I just switched my 2 year old to farmina in Jan and she’s been having loose stools and gas too. It’s been almost two months do you think I should switch?


Well, yes, after you’ve taken your doggie to the vet, I’d switch. To a brand from a company that does in-house feeding tests, before it send its foods off to market. That’s the last safe guard in the process. Farmina skips that part —in effect using your dogs & mine as ‘guinea pigs!’ And so does everyone of its competitors. Used to think differently. Farmina was at the top of my list (‘ancestral’ grains sounded great & look, no peas). Then, I encountered the word ’nutrients’ and thought, uh oh, I’m judging this book and that, by its cover! Put my Science Hat back on, decided to listen to the experts.


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## jennretz

Vivi Feinstein said:


> I just switched my 2 year old to farmina in Jan and she’s been having loose stools and gas too. It’s been almost two months do you think I should switch?


We switched to PPP Sensitive Skin and Stomach and loose stools and gas went away. But Charlie’s gotten itchy so may try beef vs salmon. Rocky went to RC Special Protein and no issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## forgold

Vivi, forget to say: if you were feeding a GF food before Farmina, can take some time for some dogs’ system to adjust. Another thing I’ve learned is... real important to feed according to the cup-body wt. guidelines printed on the bag. If it says, 3-4 cups for 50-75 lb. dog, don’t cut back (to slim him down), switch to a food with fewer kcal/cup. To keep your dog’s food intake balanced in terms of nutrients. Same principle if you find yourself feeding more than the guidelines.


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## Maggie'sVoice

the bag is just a guideline only. It is the average amount of food to feed a dog that size. Age, activity, metabolism all play a key part in the amount to feed any food. Most of the time 10-15% less then whats recommended is a good place to start. It's much easier to add a few pounds then to take the extra weight off. Plus, extra weight is bad for a couple of reasons. first is joint issues, second is a study by Purina showed a dog 5lbs under weight lived over 2 additional years as opposed to 5lbs over weight dogs lived over 2 years less on average and if were talking about puppies, excess food will just make them grow faster, not really get fat.

What I have done with all my Goldens is offer a cup of food 3 times a day till 4-5 months and then feed the same amount (3 cups) over 2 meals. the first month most puppies won't eat the whole cup each meal but that's when you don't want to short change them. Just pick up the uneaten food after 15 or 20 min and then just offer the full cup again the next meal. don't leave it for them to graze, this way they will learn to eat meals and will then go to the bathroom more on a schedule.


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## SoCalEngr

I, too, have been wading through the information and back-and-forth on dog-food-in-general and puppy-food-in-particular, with an emphasis on puppy food for goldens (or, other large breed puppies).

What I've gleaned is...
#1 - Too much calcium is not good for larger breeds (ergo, the "large breed" specific puppy foods).
#2 - "Too much calcium" appears to be anything over 1.8%, although not-less-than 1.2%
#3 - While not "proven", there are ongoing investigations into the correlation between diets with legumes and dilated cardiomyopathy. In these studies, I read where it seems goldens are particularly susceptible.
#4 - There seems to be some back-and-forth on the relative merits of corn and other grains. At least one site references that it's not just the grain-in-question, but how it's processed, that determines nutritional benefit to the puppy.

Of the five (5) WSAVA-compliant brands identified...
-- Three (3) have peas in their ingredient list (peas, pea protein, and pea fiber)
-- Of the remaining three (2), which all include grains in their ingredient list...
-- -- One (1) lists the meat-based protein sources as #s 1 and 2 in their ingredient list
-- -- One (1) lists the meat-based protein sources as #s 1 and 3 in their ingredient list
-- -- But, none list "how much" each ingredient represents in their final ingredient list


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## jeffscott947

The WSAVA is a bought and paid for group supported by the big five dog food companies, that have a vested interest in selling their own products..good or bad!.
Their group excludes most of the foods in highlighted in last yrs TINY DCM "expose" sampling and to date..no additional information from the FDA has been forthcoming. 

These same companies sell and promote garbage foods and claim that they have nutritionists that they employ to benefit dogs and not their bottem line.. Have a look at who make what below.

With that said, I avoid any food with *corn, wheat or soy *and no grain free atm, until I see a sampling with a *much larger representative group of dogs and foods,* regarding Grain Free, Boutique diets, and DCM .
It is good to be prudent, and informed, but not be swayed by the self serving hogwash out there.


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## SoCalEngr

Can you please explain/elaborate on the following? I was a bit confused by the phrasing. I can appreciate that you do not seem to be a fan of WSAVA, but I'm much more interested in understanding the import and rationale behind these statements. As I am in-the-process of integrating a golden into our family's routine, I'm always interested in the "why" behind a person's/group's positions/actions. - Grazi

"Their group excludes most of the foods in highlighted in last yrs TINY DCM "expose" sampling and to date..no additional information from the FDA has been forthcoming."

"With that said, I avoid any food with *corn, wheat or soy *and no grain free atm, until I see a sampling with a *much larger representative group of dogs and foods,* regarding Grain Free, Boutique diets, and DCM ."


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## Maggie'sVoice

Corn isn't an issue unless your dog has a reaction to it like an allergy, I agree wheat and soy are not very good for dogs. Soy unless processed into soy protein isolate can actually inhibit nutrient absorption in the GI tract, for people and dogs.

As far as WSAVA isn't bought and paid for, I don't believe in conspiracy theories. But WSAVA approved foods are not the only ones that are fine to feed. I feed a food called Nature's Variety, the Be Natural Line (not the grain free). The rub with the grain free foods are that they seem to be one of the most common denominators linked to the Diet Mediated DCM (Dilated Cardiomyopathy), especially in breeds that are NOT genetically predisposed to DCM, like Golden Retrievers. It's believed, in general, that the grain free foods that include legumes (peas, beans, lentils) and potentially sweet potatoes are causing Taurine deficiency. Dogs that have been taken off the grain free foods and onto a grain inclusive food have reversed the DCM if it hasn't progressed too far and was caught early enough. This is the nail in the proverbial coffin that it is food related to a large extent.

It's not only the lack of taurine but also something else causing the DCM issue with grain free foods as some dogs had normal levels of taurine in the blood and still had DCM. It's also not all grain free foods either. The point is they don't know the exact cause yet and the studies are still ongoing. The recommendations as of now is unless you need to feed grain free, it's advisable to steer clear until more info is made available.


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## Maggie'sVoice

SoCalEngr said:


> I, too, have been wading through the information and back-and-forth on dog-food-in-general and puppy-food-in-particular, with an emphasis on puppy food for goldens (or, other large breed puppies).
> 
> What I've gleaned is...
> #1 - Too much calcium is not good for larger breeds (ergo, the "large breed" specific puppy foods).
> #2 - "Too much calcium" appears to be anything over 1.8%, although not-less-than 1.2%
> #3 - While not "proven", there are ongoing investigations into the correlation between diets with legumes and dilated cardiomyopathy. In these studies, I read where it seems goldens are particularly susceptible.
> #4 - There seems to be some back-and-forth on the relative merits of corn and other grains. At least one site references that it's not just the grain-in-question, but how it's processed, that determines nutritional benefit to the puppy.
> 
> Of the five (5) WSAVA-compliant brands identified...
> -- Three (3) have peas in their ingredient list (peas, pea protein, and pea fiber)
> -- Of the remaining three (2), which all include grains in their ingredient list...
> -- -- One (1) lists the meat-based protein sources as #s 1 and 2 in their ingredient list
> -- -- One (1) lists the meat-based protein sources as #s 1 and 3 in their ingredient list
> -- -- But, none list "how much" each ingredient represents in their final ingredient list


For a Golden Retriever puppy should not have a calcium level then 1.4% for controlled growth. Phosphorous inhibits calcium so for controlled growth of a large breed puppy you want your Calcium to Phosphorous ratio to be between 1.1:1 to 1.4:1... a ratio of 1.8:1 or 2.0:1 is way to high and can lead to joint issues like Pano or even dysplasia. This is what you NEVER want to feed an all life stage food. It is made for small breed puppies technically by definition and more times then not has too high a calcium ratio on top of too much fat and protein for a large breed puppy food. Make sure it is a food that is specifically a Large Breed Puppy food and generally feed it till 9-12 months. Though I usually transition to adult food around 9 months or so.

More on the corn, If it's ground then it is completely fine. Only whole corn would be a problem for a dog to digest as only the out kernel (which is cellulose) is what is not digestible. Ground corn exposes 100% of what is digestible of the corn and that is over 90% digestible. Corn also has Protein, fats, oils and carbs, one of the most complete grains actually.


----------



## forgold

Maggie'sVoice said:


> the bag is just a guideline only. It is the average amount of food to feed a dog that size. Age, activity, metabolism all play a key part in the amount to feed any food. Most of the time 10-15% less then whats recommended is a good place to start. It's much easier to add a few pounds then to take the extra weight off. Plus, extra weight is bad for a couple of reasons. first is joint issues, second is a study by Purina showed a dog 5lbs under weight lived over 2 additional years as opposed to 5lbs over weight dogs lived over 2 years less on average and if were talking about puppies, excess food will just make them grow faster, not really get fat.
> 
> What I have done with all my Goldens is offer a cup of food 3 times a day till 4-5 months and then feed the same amount (3 cups) over 2 meals. the first month most puppies won't eat the whole cup each meal but that's when you don't want to short change them. Just pick up the uneaten food after 15 or 20 min and then just offer the full cup again the next meal. don't leave it for them to graze, this way they will learn to eat meals and will then go to the bathroom more on a schedule.


================

Yes! I good advice, definitely don’t want to overfeed our pups. 
But my main point (or so I thought) was: the feeding guidelines on the bags have the force of RESEARCH behind them.

Nowadays, you’d have to shoot me, to keep me from feeding one of the BIG FOUR dog foods! Because they employ teams of experts, run feeding tests, do peer-review research and have great DCM track records to show for it. 
Also because I now know, choosing the ‘finest’ ingredients is not the answer...a good cook can make a great meal out of modest set of ingredients she familiar with. But with crickets, say, bamboo shoots and alfalfa, a less good outcome. For you or your dog. Ugh! and who knows what nutrients it contains or lacks. Get it?


(To be continued in a separate post)


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

forgold said:


> ================
> 
> Yes! I good advice, definitely don’t want to overfeed our pups.
> But my main point (or so I thought) was: the feeding guidelines on the bags have the force of RESEARCH behind them.
> 
> Nowadays, you’d have to shoot me, to keep me from feeding one of the BIG FOUR dog foods! Because they employ teams of experts, run feeding tests, do peer-review research and have great DCM track records to show for it.
> Also because I now know, choosing the ‘finest’ ingredients is not the answer...a good cook can make a great meal out of modest set of ingredients she familiar with. But with crickets, say, bamboo shoots and alfalfa, a less good outcome. For you or your dog. Ugh! and who knows what nutrients it contains or lacks. Get it?
> 
> 
> (To be continued in a separate post)


The amount of food fed is based more times than not on the feed trials. If they used 20 dogs, the average that was feed is generally what is used. So if 4 dogs were crazy hyper and ran all the time they would need more food to maintain their body weight. So again it's a guideline not a rule.

Also, there are A LOT more companies then the big 5 that employ vets and nutritionists that formulate foods for other companies. A company not of those 5 are not having some Joe formulate their foods. I've been to and met veterinary nutritionists with PHDs at R&Ds of Wellness, Nature's Variety, Merrick, Natura , Diamond along with Hill's, Nutro, Iams/Euk, Purina and a couple I'm probably forgetting over the last 15+ years.

Point is, there are plenty of foods to feed. If feeding from those 4 or 5 companies your ok with and makes you feel comfortable then that's fine and nothing wrong with that. 

And I am more than well aware of ingredients compared to nutrients.


----------



## forgold

jeffscott947 said:


> The WSAVA is a bought and paid for group supported by the big five dog food companies, that have a vested interest in selling their own products..good or bad!.
> Their group excludes most of the foods in highlighted in last yrs TINY DCM "expose" sampling and to date..no additional information from the FDA has been forthcoming.
> 
> These same companies sell and promote garbage foods and claim that they have nutritionists that they employ to benefit dogs and not their bottem line.. Have a look at who make what below.
> 
> With that said, I avoid any food with *corn, wheat or soy *and no grain free atm, until I see a sampling with a *much larger representative group of dogs and foods,* regarding Grain Free, Boutique diets, and DCM .
> It is good to be prudent, and informed, but not be swayed by the self serving hogwash out there.
> 
> View attachment 871721


QUOTE="jeffscott947, post: 7793154, member: 203510"]
Jeff, This is a useful table. But important for folks to realize that as of this date, so far as any of us know, Merrick is still an independent unit, which is what Nestlé Purina explicitly promised when it bought it. So, still not following the WSAVA guidelines, alas. Which is the only safe course these days.
[
The WSAVA is a bought and paid for group supported by the big five dog food companies, that have a vested interest in selling their own products..good or bad!.
Their group excludes most of the foods in highlighted in last yrs TINY DCM "expose" sampling and to date..no additional information from the FDA has been forthcoming.

These same companies sell and promote garbage foods and claim that they have nutritionists that they employ to benefit dogs and not their bottem line.. Have a look at who make what below.

With that said, I avoid any food with *corn, wheat or soy *and no grain free atm, until I see a sampling with a *much larger representative group of dogs and foods,* regarding Grain Free, Boutique diets, and DCM .
It is good to be prudent, and informed, but not be swayed by the self serving hogwash out there
[/QUOTE]
QUOTE="jeffscott947, post: 7793154, member: 203510"]


*****my reply **
Jeff. Useful table. Thank you. But note, Merrick is still an independent unit within the Nestlé-Purina family, as promised when it was bought out. No indication it has adopted the best practice guidelines that Purina and the other big co.s have used for decades. Whereas over at Mars, four do and four don’t. And really that a MAJOR dividing line between who‘s been linked to DCM and who has not.

The boutique co.s have enough SICK & DEAD dogs on their doorstep 9 months ago.That plus existing research got FDA to name the worst offenders —a year or more after the vet community first sounded an alarm. Josh Stern’s study and important position papers from Tufts, etc. were already well-known. 

I am a scientist and have owned Goldens for more than 50 yrs. You‘ve take a different tact, use loaded words, seem to see conspiracies. Truthfully, your view of the dog food world is not what experts see, not what research has already shown. So far, we’ve seen only the tip of the iceberg.

The big DCM Golden group on FB has lots of resources: Vets, professional-level nutritionists (DVM PhD credentials is what counts), a big set of Learning Units, experienced breeders, etc. Plus a bunch of dog owner trying to come to terms with DCM, an awful disease, very helpful to them, so many are already GRIEVING! 
Also, folks like me, whose titles include Former Food Snob. ) 
The group is FACT-oriented, more so than this one and has rules, to discourage unsupported opinion.


----------



## forgold

Maggie'sVoice said:


> The amount of food fed is based more times than not on the feed trials. If they used 20 dogs, the average that was feed is generally what is used. So if 4 dogs were crazy hyper and ran all the time they would need more food to maintain their body weight. So again it's a guideline not a rule.
> 
> Also, there are A LOT more companies then the big 5 that employ vets and nutritionists that formulate foods for other companies. A company not of those 5 are not having some Joe formulate their foods. I've been to and met veterinary nutritionists with PHDs at R&Ds of Wellness, Nature's Variety, Merrick, Natura , Diamond along with Hill's, Nutro, Iams/Euk, Purina and a couple I'm probably forgetting over the last 15+ years.
> 
> Point is, there are plenty of foods to feed. If feeding from those 4 or 5 companies your ok with and makes you feel comfortable then that's fine and nothing wrong with that.
> 
> And I am more than well aware of ingredients compared to nutrients.


***
Eric, That’s not what I am hearing here. Big is bad, corn is filler, avoid soy, etc... Boutique co.s get a lot of eyeballs, no mention of the food fad aspect. Conspiracy theories pop up. 

Anyway, really clear to me now, nutrition is not a DIY proposition. Small dog food co.s operate at a disadvantage. I no longer think, with my Ph D in science, I do fine outside my chosen field. Even tho a snap for me to read the research studies. Views have changed on taurine. No way I’d ever outsourced my own research, so not going to choose a dog co. that does. And, Farmina lost my vote, with its ‘cruelty-free‘ argument —to wiggle out of in-house feeding trials. Well, skip THOSE and guess who gets to be their guinea pigs—your dogs and mine! And fact is, the Big Four go beyond the bare minimum, e.g., do peer-reviewed studies.

What helped to keep dog foods safe before the GF fad, was the _tried and true approach_ (familiar proteins, modest amt.s of peas, product testing) except two decades ago, when Nutro tried lamb. None of us ever heard of that DISASTER. nHave you? But the vets in my group knew, and for sure 99% of the cardiologists. Thank god. 

And some of us thought: well, Nutro‘s bound to be safe now, had learned its lesson. Then , uh oh, 5 cases in my big FB group & 10 at FDA. A lot of very scared dog owners, plus 2 dead dogs as I recall. 

What you wouldn’t know, is this: the co.s you visited/talked to, no longer look so safe and good. The vets on the big Golden-DCM group on FB are people-smart, wanted facts... so gave then a WRITTEN ‘quiz!’ Join the group and you can see for yourself— each co.’s replies are listed in a table, including the questions they left blank. Here’s an example of a half-baked solution. Several of the co.s shared the same nutritionist, whose day job was in academe. How many co.s can he juggle? Answer: Makes me wince. And, note, NONE of the co.s ran feeding tests (tho a few used to, I gather.) Many more co.s questioned than the ones you like. I was initially shocked, think we all were.

A couple of months later, I came across a nice UK study that found “widespread non-compliance“ with the new European standards for dog foods. So, no, not about my comfort level. I am into facts. I used to wear my Science Hat only in the classroom, in the lab, at professional meetings. Big mistake once the GF bandwagon appeared. So, no, NOT ‘plenty of dog foods to feed’ (your view). The Big Four are the only safe bet around. 

None of the sick and dead DCM dogs are piled up, on THEIR doorstep. One hundred % kill rate not required to conclude —who’s skimped on research, with tragic results. FDA named only the 16 worst offender last June.
But ‘my‘ group began collecting owner reports on affected dogs months before then, reviews each one, & posts the results regularly. Last update, Feb. 29. 

Yes, some dogs can be saved if their DCM caught early enough—hard to do with a silent disease. And, Eric, do you have any idea how heart-breaking, demanding AND expensive it is to treat them? Only in the last 6 months did the $$$ part come up in ‘my’ group (which is 100 k or larger now). Some days like Whack-a-Mole, so many naive and suspicious ideas to try to tamp down, so don’t mislead others and ignore the worried and grieving owners.

Sorry! No short and sweet way to explain what the Big Four co.s have been doing RIGHT all these years. And how so many of the OTHERS took the wrong paths. We climbed on their bandwagon, many of us hating Purina in particular or at least distrusting it. The net result many hundreds sick dogs. Has a 20% kill rate, did you know that? The human toll of Covid was immediately recognized, most get diagnosed despite our slow response. Not true for DCM. Like so many other dog diseases, most go unreported.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

Whatever you're reading is just being lazy about corn, it's the old myth that was created back in the late 80s from Nutro in the campaign about corn is a filler when Nutro came out with their Natural choice Lamb and Rice. They used to push for decades that corn is a filler, we can't digest it either crap. I just explained why that is crap earlier. Those places also need to learn what filler means. Filler means something with no nutritional value. Corn again has protein, fats, oils, carbs. It's ONLY undigestible part is the outer kernel, it is cellulose which is undigestible. Once you grind the whole kernel you make the usable, digestible part of the corn available to be digested and used. 

As far as the big companies, whatever you feel comfortable with you should do. There are other foods that do not have any issues pertaining to the DCM problem. The companies I listed was about having nutritionists and R&D to formulate their foods. They had issues with their grain free lines. Some offer grain free and those lines should be avoided imo. 

I'm part of that Facebook group, have been for almost 2 years. It's fanatical and little crazy and the regular people in there have some things mixed up and know enough to be dangerous. Some are knowledgeable. But nutrition is something most people only know a fraction about. Unless you really know it, reading things like fb groups and sites like dogfoodadvisors and whole dog journal will just confuse a lot of people and lead them down a rabbit whole or misinformation. My knowledge about nutrition is from all the companies I listed prior. I've been out to them, been able to pick their brains, get behind the scenes knowledge, read studies.

One thing is curious, you say you read all this stuff and that corn is bad and a filler, but the tried and true companies you trust all use corn, but the "Big Four co.s have been doing RIGHT all these year" and they use corn so which is it? Corn is bad but the big 4 is doing it right but use corn... Contradictory.


----------



## bigblackdog

I've been following this thread and have some questions. I know that the many members push Purina products here. Some of their foods are better and some are bottom of the barrel. What I don't understand is that it keeps being repeated ,and I think if repeated enough people think it's true...that the so called 'boutique ' foods have not been developed by veterinary nutritionist ...that somehow these private companies...just came out with a recipe out of their hat. Not true at all. Most top of the line foods have been developed by veterinary nutritionist. These nutritionist that are developing foods at Purina....must have to close their eyes and hold their nose...when Alpo and Beneful are pushed. It is said that a pair of old leather boots and some used motor oil and some wood shaving, and some vitamins and minerals, would pass FDA approved foods. FDA did release a report about the toxic ingredients found in Beneful. Not sure if the "nutritionist " approved of the ingredients? or it was the crap quality of the ingredients that was put into the food??

Feeding trials also don't mean much...puppies have to be alive after 6 weeks on the food, and adult dogs have to be alive after 6 months. They just have to be alive at the end of the trails. Nothing more, nothing less. Purina is also pushing grainless food in their Beyond lines. Screaming that grainless foods are killing dogs....but pushing it themselves.

From all of the reports I have read....so far 54 dogs have died from DMC that they suspect was caused by diet. Dogs are not falling and dying like flies.Out of hundreds and thousands of dogs...54 . Is there a concern? Sure. 

Feed what you like, what you can afford, and what the dog does well on. Look at the ingredients...if the food looks like it should be fed to a farm animal (chicken, pig, cow,etc.)….look for a food that contains meat. I wish all of the dog food companies had to put a pie chart on the back of all of their foods with percentages of meat, grain, veggies, fruit,etc. It really would help dog owners make much better choices. Having a meat as the number #1 ingredient as Purina prides itself on, followed by 10 different stages of grains and carbs...means there is very little meat in the food.


----------



## SoCalEngr

As a newb to dog ownership in general, and goldens in particular, I find all of the discussion and recommendations useful. However, I use the information not as "here's what I will do", but "here's what I will look into". When all-is-said-and-done, people should do their own research and make their own, informed, decisions. In my line of work, I often tell others that I have an easier time accepting "bad decisions" than "uninformed decisions" (various reasons, and a completely different discussion).

Based on my own Internet-based research, discussions with a vet who I trust implicitly, and input from various folks on forums, I have made my own decision. While I find the back-and-forth informative and, at times, entertaining, I thought it'd be helpful to share "how" I came to my own decision, as the back-and-forth can get a bit confusing for us newbs.

*Formulated specifically for large breed puppies*
I wasn't aware that this was "a deal". But, it wasn't hard to find. And, now that I know, I can't imagine feeding our golden anything else.

*WSAVA compliant*
First, my research indicates there is no such thing as "WSAVA approved". WSAVA has some guidelines, and food manufacturers either do, or do not, comply.
Also, "WSAVA compliant" is not an end-all-be-all endorsement. It simply means that a process was followed, and specific information is available. One WSAVA-compliant food, which I really liked, had "peas" prominently in their ingredient list. Other than this, I would have chosen this food.
None-the-less, "WSAVA compliant" is a decent touchstone, especially for us newbs.

*No legumes*
Alright. Not scientifically proven. Some anecdotal evidence. Some correlation, but no definitive causation.
But?
Why take a chance when there are other options available? Especially if those options have been "perfectly fine" for several decades? And, DCM seems serious enough that I'd rather "avoid it" than "monitor for it".

*Meat-based proteins figure prominently in the ingredient list*
From my research, grains are not evil. When processed properly, they're a good source of nutrients. Unless, of course, your dog is allergic to the grain. Got it.
But?
There still is something that "sits well" with me when meat-based protein sources figure more prominently in the top-5 of the ingredient list.

*Pick a good vet, and use them*
I'm fortunate. I have a vet in-the-family. And, I feel like I've found a good vet.
And?
I plan to use them. I don't see the selection of a dog food as a once-in-a-lifetime deal. Pick, feed, monitor, ask for help if issues pop up. Honestly? This is the backup plan that makes the other criteria easier to apply.

Did I make the right choice? Yes (I think)...for me. I narrowed my search down to a handful of foods, including both larger brands and some boutique-style, and then did some "deeper digging" on those foods. Realistically, there are many options that seem "right", depending on where one places their priorities. But, with the large pool of information and opinions, it's also easy to run into analysis paralysis.


----------



## jeffscott947

FWIW..it's great to see people thinking for themselves, and not simply going with the flow. No matter what their choice(s), those folks will know that they used their best efforts for their pets, and not just followed what others have to say.
*Common sense for buyers is the 1st ingredient for any pet owner*..then the Vet, then MAYBE the internet to substantiate their opinions. If any new owners think that those cute little shapes and pleasant colors in pet foods are for our pets to enjoy....might think again..they are marketing tools just like the fancy artwork on bags, meant to attract Humans with cash to spend.


----------



## jeffscott947

SoCalEngr said:


> Can you please explain/elaborate on the following? I was a bit confused by the phrasing. I can appreciate that you do not seem to be a fan of WSAVA, but I'm much more interested in understanding the import and rationale behind these statements. As I am in-the-process of integrating a golden into our family's routine, I'm always interested in the "why" behind a person's/group's positions/actions. - Grazi
> 
> "Their group excludes most of the foods in highlighted in last yrs TINY DCM "expose" sampling and to date..no additional information from the FDA has been forthcoming."
> 
> "With that said, I avoid any food with *corn, wheat or soy *and no grain free atm, until I see a sampling with a *much larger representative group of dogs and foods,* regarding Grain Free, Boutique diets, and DCM ."


The rationale is easy..,..some people would like us to believe that the WSAVA has our pet's interests at heart and not the health of their bottem lines. Since the big four own the WSVA, and exclude other companies..it seems obvious what their real motives are..PROFITS AND STOCKHOLDERS come first.
I won't feed their foods, but ever since this DCM scare happened..sales of the BIG chief rival BLUE have surged upwards; and their lines are now mostly grain free.

It does seem odd, that I never see the sort of rabid promotion and defense of Purina, and the WSVA on any other pet forums except this one. Kinda makes one wonder just what the driving force could be!
=================================================================================
From thetruthaboutdogs.com

“_Cardiologists and nutritionists_” are making suspicious pet food recommendations to “_protect your dog_” from diet related heart disease. Are their recommendations bias, or do they just not have a clue?


The TaurineDCM.org website states: “_The cardiologists and nutritionists who uncovered the taurine-DCM connection have been unanimous in their assessment that the best way to get your dog out of danger in this situation_, _and to protect your dog from future problems like this, is to_* buy your food from a company that has shown a commitment to doing regular nutrition research and that has the ability to catch these kinds of problems before they get so serious.*“


The brands of pet food the “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” recommend pet owners to provide their pet – to “_protect your dog_” – is:


*Purina (most formulas)
Hills (Science Diet)
Royal Canin
Eukanuba*


The DCM website claims they recommend these brands because the pet food company:



*employs at least one full-time nutritionist*;
does *not release a formula without testing and trialing that formula* using the feed trial protocols established by the AAFCO;
should do a *huge amount of quality testing*;
The company should *manufacture the diet themselves*, so it can control the ingredients and quality;
And the company should* subject its diets to peer-reviewed scientific research, and be able to back up any of its claims with data that is available to the public.*
Now that we have the “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” official criteria for selecting a dog food that will “_protect your dog_“…let’s look at facts they are ignoring.


*Cardiologists and Nutritionists recommended safe pet food #1 – Purina*


In a FDA investigation into Purina Pet Foods Beneful brand, the FDA found during inspection *‘above the allowable level’ *of cyanuric acid and melamine in 2013 testing of Beneful. Cynauric acid and melamine are *the deadly combination responsible for the largest and deadliest pet food recall in history* (2007). There was no recall even though test results are evidence to 6 Purina Beneful pet food adulterations.


“_Six samples collected contained ethoxyquin; however, the additive was not indicated on the product labeling.”_ Pet food companies are required by regulation to list ALL ingredients on a pet food label. Purina ignored that regulation.


During this inspection, Purina told FDA they perform “_routine contamination analysis_“. BUT…Purina refused to disclose to FDA exactly what routine testing was performed; the FDA inspection report states Purina “_*would not describe this analysis since the method is classified at the firm as proprietary information.*_“


During inspection, “_Per a refusal from Nestle Purina, *the manufacturing facility was unable to provide the actual content or weights of individual ingredients that went into the implicated lots*._“


Perhaps the “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” blindly recommending Purina should visit the link on the FDA website to learn more information about Purina. Click Here to read the information from FDA.


And with the “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” requirement that a safe pet food manufacture their own food to “_control the ingredients and quality_“, perhaps a reminder is needed that owning the manufacturing facility is NO guarantee to safety. “_Cardiologists and nutritionists_” recommending Purina must have missed this recent Purina recall for putting a cat food into the marketplace that contained plastic pieces.


*Cardiologists and Nutritionists recommended safe pet food #2 – Hill’s Science Diet*


We don’t need to look very far to find another “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” requirement of a safe pet food to “_protect your dog_” being ignored; serious violations with lack of “_*a* _*huge amount of quality testing*” in Hill’s.


On January 31, 2019, Hill’s announced a excess Vitamin D recall – proving the company *did not* perform “_a huge amount of quality testing_” on incoming ingredients (Vitamin premix) or the finished pet foods put into the marketplace that resulted in many pet deaths.


Further, Hill’s announced *another excess Vitamin D recall 7 weeks after the initial recall* – again evidencing Hill’s lack of “_a huge amount of quality testing_” and proper investigation/tracing of the toxic excess Vitamin D.


*Cardiologists and Nutritionists recommended safe pet food #3 and #4 – Royal Canin and Eukanuba*


Royal Canin and Eukanuba brands are Mars Petcare brands. In 2017, FDA performed an inspection at a Mars Petcare manufacturing facility as follow up to a 2016 Mars Petcare Cesar dog food recall. This recall was due to plastic pieces being discovered in the pet food by a consumer. In other words, we again have evidence that a “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” recommended pet food DID NOT perform “_a huge amount of quality testing_“.


During the *2017 FDA inspection*, the agency “_Inspectional Observations_” stated this about Mars Petcare:


“*Inspectional Observations*
_ 1. _*Failure to*_ inspect, segregate, or otherwise handle raw materials and ingredients used in manufacturing under conditions that will _*protect the animal food against contamination and minimize deterioration*_.


2. _*Failure to take effective measures to exclude pests from your plant*_ and protect against contamination of animal food by pests._“


During the previous FDA inspection of this Mars pet food plant (9 months earlier – October 2016), the FDA investigator _“reviewed the firm’s pest control deviations – most notably* the firm’s German cockroach infestation (which is most prominent on production lines)*.”_


In fact, Freedom of Information Act request documents evidenced a serious roach infestation of this “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” recommended pet food company to “_protect your dog_“. From a Mars Petcare _“Pest Sighting Log” _maintained by the pet food manufacturer, “*Millions of Roaches*” was noted on 12/13/2017.


*What’s up docs?*


Why are “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” ignoring the documented facts about Purina, Hill’s and Mars?


We don’t know why, we can only make assumptions. And none of those assumptions are good.


A word to the “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” giving uninformed advice to pet owners: if you want us to take you seriously, *learn ALL of the facts about the pet foods you recommend*.


FDA provided evidence proves that a pet food is NOT guaranteed to “_protect_” our dogs and cats by having a nutritionist on staff, by owning their own manufacturing facility, and blindly believing the company performs “_a huge amount of quality testing_.”


Cardiologists and Nutritionists, what you are currently doing to desperate pet owners is WRONG. Have you forgotten your oath?


And by the way, Purina sells grain free dog foods with the exact same exotic protein ingredients as well as multiple pea ingredients “_cardiologists and nutritionists_” warn against in other brands. Hill’s sells grain free dog food with multiple pea ingredients. And Mars is selling grain free pet foods with multiple pea ingredients too.


*The “*_*cardiologists and nutritionists*_*” should be ashamed."*


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

Virtually EVERY dog food brand has had recalls, some, like the diamond brand has had SIGNIFICANTLY more recalls than others which also make foods for other brand too. So shouldn't all brands that have had recalls be posted about as well in such cherry picking to expose non compliance and quality control issues?


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## Prism Goldens

jeffscott947 said:


> The rationale is easy..,..some people would like us to believe that the WSAVA has our pet's interests at heart and not the health of their bottem lines. Since the big four own the WSVA, and exclude other companies..it seems obvious what their real motives are..PROFITS AND STOCKHOLDERS come first.
> I won't feed their foods, but ever since this DCM scare happened..sales of the BIG chief rival BLUE have surged upwards; and their lines are now mostly grain free.
> .....(all the extra pick and choose junk posted deleted)....
> 
> 
> *The “*_*cardiologists and nutritionists*_*” should be ashamed."*


Not true. About – WSAVA I (unlike others) believe people can read without copy pasting enormous amounts of text and graphics but very clearly WSAVA is NOT owned by the 'big four'. Go read there at your leisure without me cherry picking for you. These companies are partners, and they subsidize the great work WSAVA does. WSAVA is in fact nearly 60 years old and most veterinarians are represented by WSAVA. The cardiologists and nutritionists who work with them are cutting edge and have nothing to be ashamed of. It's the companies who are not on board such as Diamond (a company with more recalls than anyone I remember) who should be ashamed.


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## SoCalEngr

This is a bit long'ish, for which I apologize in advance. But, it's also my swan song on this topic, so...

I'm new to this site, and to golden retrievers (and, maybe should keep quite and defer to those who know more than I?  ). Hopefully, the OP has been able to successfully address their specific concerns, and has moved on to enjoy their life-in-general and their golden-in-particular.

I've already addressed my attitude towards ingredients and potential impacts on dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) in goldens. But, just for sake of everything-in-one-place, I'll reiterate that I'm avoiding any food that includes peas, potatos, etc. in the ingredient list. Any causal linkage between these ingredients and DCM in goldens is not a proven, but, with the wide assortment of foods to select from, there's no need to take any chances.

The follow-on discussion on this thread about the relative priorities and value of the WSAVA is interesting, but doesn't really track. Because, as others have already stated, the WSAVA doesn't recommend any specific brands or formulations. But, the WSAVA does provide some criteria it recommends people use in assessing potential foods, and these criteria can be assessed on their own merit, independent of who did/did-not pay for them to be proposed.

I'm synopsizing from WSAVA's glossy, which can be found *here*.

*Does the manufacturer employ a full-time, qualified nutritionist?
Who formulates the manufacturer's foods and what are their credentials?*
I lump these together. While there is a level of comfort in knowing a manufacturer has qualified nutritionists on staff, that doesn't mean that all of the manufacturer's products are going to meet everyone's standards for "top shelf". First, there seems to be variation, even amongst "the experts", on what constitutes "top shelf" ingredients. Second, the reality is that not everyone cares; many will buy based on price, not ingredients. And, none of the manufacturers are in this business to lose money, or pass up a chance on sales. Even if a manufacturer was highly altruistic in their approach and product, that means nothing if they cannot stay in business.
So, good "comfort level", but not an absolute discriminator.

*Do your diets meet AAFCO nutrient profiles? By analysis or forumulation?*
This is a bit more helpful, especially with the AAFCO statements on the product. This is one of the three best criteria I have found so far, and the easiest to understand. I somewhat get the check on "how" the nutrient profile is determined, but it's somewhat moot when other factors get mixed into the equation.

Food formulated for puppies? Check.
Food formulated to be complete and balanced? Check.

Nice, straightforward, and easy. The whole story? Nope. But, answers two significant questions that should be asked.

*Where are the foods produced and manufactured?
What quality control measures are used in the manufacture of food?*
Personally, "where produced" is huge. Is it a guarantee? Nope. Quality control measures can fail, irrespective of reason or intent. But, some locales simply engender more faith in the oversight and management of the quality of the ingredients.

*Can the manufacturer provide an exact (vice "guaranteed analysis") measure for a nutrient?*
I imagine this can be nice, but I question if it is "necessary". My rationale is a concept called "false precision". It's possible to be incredibly precise, yet still miss the mark. And, what is the real-world import of 1.1% vice 1.2%? Especially if I'm not using similar precision in the portion size?
Maybe similar to the nutritionist criteria. A good "comfort level", but not an absolute discriminator.

*What is the caloric value of manufacturer's food?*
Okay, something that is, more-or-less, another straightforward-and-simple. How many calories does my four-legged family member need? How much of this product do they need to eat to get those calories?

*What product research has been conducted, and is it published?*
Yeah, another "comfort level", but not an absolute discriminator.

So, WSAVA proposes 8 criteria to use when assessing which pet food to purchase. Of these, I find that 4 are "nice, but not definitive", and 4 can be directly applied in making a selection. But, all are worthwhile, and there's not really an overt bias for/against any group of manufacturers.

*But, the FDA has some input, too*
Which brings up the "two biggies" (well,"three", no, "four") for me. These are mandated by the *FDA*, and are, in my mind, much more helpful in the final assessment.

*Ingredient List*
While part of me is highly annoyed that this list can be gamed (ingredient splitting), and that there is no percent-by-weight or other objective quantification of the ingredients, it at least provides the opportunity to screen for desired/undesired ingredients.

*Guaranteed Analysis*
Okay, it's not the "exact measure" that WSAVA recommends. But, it's enough to make some "good enough" assessments. And, this is impacted by another factor, which I'll mention shortly.

*Nutritional Adequacy*
Ah...that nice, short, straightforward declarative.

*Feeding Directions*
Initially, I didn't pay much attention to this. But then, I asked myself a question. If kibble-brand-A has twice the percentage of X than kibble-brand-B, does that really mean my puppy is getting twice-as-much-X if I feed kibble-brand-A? It seems that the answer would be "no", if the feeding directions call for 1/2 the amount compared to kibble-brand-B.
So, I'm looking at both the "guaranteed analysis" and "feeding directions" to determine if enough of X is being included in the daily feedings.
Parenthetically, while I recognize the value of nutrient dense foods, my brief experience with our four-legged-kibble-vacuum tells me she might just appreciate an extra half-cup of "filler", as long as it doesn't cause her problems.

*And, finally...*
Does it really matter what WSAVA's objectives are, or motivations? Not really. Their recommended criteria are good, albeit not the end-all-be-all. There's other criteria to consider, mandated by other organizations. There's also your vet's recommendations. It may take a bit of slogging-through-the-Internet, but finding a food that you feel comfortable feeding your four-legged-family-member can be done.


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## Prism Goldens

Your 4 legged vacuum will surely appreciate your ability to discern good nutrition! Thank you for taking that time- a very good post! 
(and fwiw- most of them suggest too much food imo)


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## jeffscott947

Prism Goldens said:


> Not true. About – WSAVA I (unlike others) believe people can read without copy pasting enormous amounts of text and graphics but very clearly WSAVA is NOT owned by the 'big four'. Go read there at your leisure without me cherry picking for you. These companies are partners, and they subsidize the great work WSAVA does. WSAVA is in fact nearly 60 years old and most veterinarians are represented by WSAVA. The cardiologists and nutritionists who work with them are cutting edge and have nothing to be ashamed of. It's the companies who are not on board such as Diamond (a company with more recalls than anyone I remember) who should be ashamed.


We all are entitled to our own opinions, and it's up to everyone to form their own without the constant insults and bullying by the few here that _ ATTEMPT to alter the FAC_TS (presented in writing) with diversions. Within that post is an FDA link to findings on certain Purina foods during an investigation, and Purina's lack of candor in their reply.

There are many dog forums on the net..some of which share mutual site ownership with GRF. None that I currently belong to or watch have a high regard for Purina or the WSAVA. These are public forums and easily googled for confirmation.


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## Prism Goldens

Just because you say something doesn't mean it is true. You seem to be the one attempting to alter the facts. I am not attempting ANYTHING. I simply posted a link to the WASVA site which clearly states your thoughts re: 'who owns' are mis-thoughts. WSAVA does good work and they are not owned by the big 4 anymore than they are owned by ISVO or VSSO. Very good work. I'd bet your own veterinarian belongs to one of the organizations, attends conferences that support, and learns from WSAVA- Associations – WSAVA
Clearly THIS forum has high regard for Purina and the WSAVA. It is what it is.


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