# Looking at Breeders For SD Prospect



## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I don't see anything about health certifications or registered names on Great Oaks site.
Vail Ranch says they will provide OFA heart, hip and eye certifications but I would ask for registered names and try to verify them yourself on OFA. If you can get the registered names someone here will help you look at them. If they give any excuse for not having them listed on OFA it would be a deal breaker for me. Also they should have elbow certifications. Hip and elbows are usually done at the same time. A hip or elbow surgery could easily cost $5000 so I wouldn't risk buying a puppy and doing all that training if the parents don't have certifications verifiable on OFA. Health guarantees are not comparable to health certifications and they just mean if the puppy you have come to love is sick they will replace it with another. 
At the top of the forum on finding a good breeder are several Stickies which have good information on what to look for in a breeder.
https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...er-puppy/22440-puppy-buyers-fact-checker.html


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm not saying to can't, but it's not very likely you'll find a puppy that quickly as anything ready for December is probably already on the ground and spoken for. The large majority of quality reputable breeders have waiting lists and can be as much as 6 months to a year on a waiting list. Not trying to be a downer, but wanted you to prepare yourself expecting a puppy quickly without realizing the waiting list times can make things very frustrating.

Also, Vail Ranch Golden's has a pretty big red flag right on the home page of their site. They are advertising "English Creme" Golden's and that usually a sign of breeding for profit and not to improve the breed as reputable breeders never breed for color.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Neither of these breeders is a good breeder. In fact both of their websites are great examples of websites that should make you run screaming in the other direction, they are so full of read flags. 

Health should be important to all homes but IMHO this is critical for potential service dogs. The nature of service, the cost and the time are such that a SD prospect hit with a diagnosis like dysplsia, sub-aortic stenosis, or progressive Retinal Atrophy would be devistating. 

Neither of these breeders does what a breeder with full and verifiable health certifications would do on a website. If you have them, you not only say you do but you provide a way to check them. This is as simple as providing the dogs registration name, though most will include a link right to OFA or to K9Data that then links to OFA. Neither do. Instead the first one says they have it but clearly they don’t since I found the mom to the current litter (Desert Moon Kassi Roo) and she can’t have hip or elbow certifications because she is under age. The second one makes no mention of any health certifications that I could find and hides their dogs behind call names so you can’t look them up. 

Here is an example of what you should find on a website where the breeder is doing a good job with health. https://aubridgegoldens.com/our-dogs-2/our-girls/ see the full registration names? See how you click on pictures you go to K9Data that has the dog’s pedigree and health certification are in blue because they hyper link to OFA? That is what you should expect if a good breeder has a full website. Not all good breeders have a full website or a website at all. If there is just a “One sheet” with contact information, you’ll have to reach out and ask for the parents registration names. Also, consider reaching out to the local Golden Retriever clubs for referrals, you might find a great breeder without a website. I will attach some visuals below that might be helpful. 

I have to agree, responsibly bred puppies are not usually available without a wait. There are more families looking than there are well bred puppies. Good breeders usually have substantial list before puppies are born and sometimes before the breeding takes place. Considering it takes 4+ months to “make” a puppy to go home, waits of 6 months or more are common with well bred puppies. You will have to be both lucky and diligent in your search if you are looking for a puppy sooner.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I find Vail Goldens site hysterically funny from a 'let's see if we can associate w things that are associated w quality while not doing any of these things' way... ex: having the Master National logo on their 'babies' page. That's truly funny. 
Calling themselves breeders of champions, more.. because Int CH is nothing more than an AKC Match. Everyone can leave w a CH in 2 days' shows. Their history- Yoncalla's Mike was indeed an AKC CH but he was just the sire/grandsire of their GSD... not that a dog from the 60's gives anyone any claim to fame now,especially since it's a different breed AND one they had nothing to do with the success of. 
Both these breeders do not want you to be able to check their own record, so no registered names are used. Instead, a bunch of rhetoric on SDs and training neither of which they can prove they are successful with.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Here is Kassi- too young to breed- Pedigree: Desert Moon Kassi Roo and Stella (also too young and wow- what a pedigree lol!)Pedigree: Desert Moon Stella Rose
Those are the Vail Goldens bitches.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

How can the sire and dam of their girls be "unknown" on K9data? Did they pick them up in a shelter?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If I had to guess, I would say Brenda Pam (from the change history) is actually the owner, Brenda Russell. I'd guess she was going to input some test breedings with her and then got carried away inputting things she never had one bit of influence on as to titles "FrontTitles="9x Grand National and International Pedigree", CallName="Stella Rose", Honorifics="9x Champion Bloodlines", " and when Lesley took those off the same day, she figured some other way to do her bragging on (again) things that are nothing to give HER bitch any glory.. if I have BOMbucks I will go fill it in this afternoon. Though I honestly prefer spending them on dogs whose owners are more forthcoming and dogs who are important to our breed.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

CWAG I'm going to guess the AKC number either has a typo or fabricated? But then I'm new to k9data and curious if it only pulls from other dogs listed in this database??

I can't believe anyone would breed a dog this young! Shame on these people.

OP breeding dogs should be over 24 months

Final clearances for hip & elbows can not be done until after 24 months.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm in the process now of inputting any clearances- don't expect that will take long given the pedigree.. but hey- this is not even an imported bitch as she implies, I see nothing imported in it... I'm on the 5th gen and these are US dogs. Also, I had to change her own page, seeing as the owner listed herself as 'breeder' when in fact someone else is the breeder.How does one make these errors?
Not only that, I am not buying even Int shows were done w these dogs, the names are so clearly BYB dog names...
though there was a clever person back there- his dog's name is something like Cash Crop Cream...


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## arkotheverygoodboy (Oct 30, 2018)

Thanks! I'll look at the sites  
I'm new to golden retrievers so I am going to do more research o the breeders and what to look for in one. I was looking at fern hill goldens, but they won't have a litter until at least 2020. I am also looking at greenville goldens, but couldn't find any OFA certificatons. I'm looking for a field line golden retriever. There was another breeder that I loved, but can't remember the name(hate my short term memory ahh).


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## VailRanchGoldens (Jun 12, 2019)

I am so blown away that people have nothing better to do than hurt people they don’t know, who are truly trying to make a difference. Why don’t you focus your energy onto shutting down on-line scam artists, puppy mills, dog slaughterhouses and the like.
Vail Ranch Goldens is 5 stars rated with no complaints from ANY of our clients. Why would a breeder 3,000 miles away write such horrible things about a company they have never spoken too, met or even purchased a puppy from? After contacting our attorney, they did research and connected these people to a past employee who was terminated for not living up to their high dog care standards and was asked to leave. Because they signed a non-disclosure, they personally could not post negative comments. It was clear that they had someone they knew start this malicious post. Their attorney has sent seize and desist letter to have all the slander and defamation post be deleted as there was no facts backing up their claims. 
What blows my mind is that we strive every day to go above and beyond to make sure our dogs are family raised on a 5-acre ranch free to run, swim and paly all day and never put in cemented and chain-link kennels. They are surrounded by over 20 volunteers and staff, family and friends and have so much fun and love every day. As clearly shown on our Facebook page daily. Vail Ranch Goldens.
Every client that comes to our personal home/Ranch, gets a private consultation and are shown all AKC, OFA’s, Genetic and DNA test results and a performance from their Advanced and VIP trained dogs before they financially commit. So obviously none of their families had guns put to their heads or any concerns at the time they signed their health guaranteed contracts and took a puppy home. Then there is all the follow up reviews with nothing but rave reviews. Desert Moon Stella Rose has had her OFA on hips, elbows and heart with all positive results. 
I ask that anyone who has posted here or has any ill will towards our company, contact me directly and ask before assuming. We just launched Vail Ranch Goldens less than 2 years ago and already are one of the most in-demand Breeder/Trainers in Southern California. We are even being asked to have our puppies and dogs in national Hollywood projects.

Feel free to visit our Facebook page @ Vail Ranch Goldens for daily and weekly updates, client reviews and the such before judging anyone’s opinion again.


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## VailRanchGoldens (Jun 12, 2019)

duplicate post


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

VailRanchGoldens said:


> Why would a breeder 3,000 miles away write such horrible things about a company they have never spoken too, met or even purchased a puppy from? After contacting our attorney, they did research and connected these people to a past employee who was terminated for not living up to their high dog care standards and was asked to leave. Because they signed a non-disclosure, they personally could not post negative comments. It was clear that they had someone they knew start this malicious post. Their attorney has sent seize and desist letter to have all the slander and defamation post be deleted as there was no facts backing up their claims.


Your post is quite confusing. It alternates between speaking in the first person as if you're acknowledging that you are the owner of Vail Ranch Goldens (as your forum name also suggests) and at other times it seems to speak in the third person like with the sentence "*Their* attorney has sent seize and desist letter" (it's cease and desist btw.) Who's attorney? Your attorney? Anyway, I'm going to go ahead and assume that you are the owner of Vail Ranch Goldens and you have decided to respond to this thread from last year because you're hoping to increase the chances that it gets pulled up anytime someone enters Vail Ranch Goldens into a search engine. 

It's extremely easy to explain why people who are concerned with the welfare of the breed overall spend time explaining to prospective puppy buyers whether or not a particular breeder is meeting the Golden Retriever Club of America's code of ethics for breeders. For anyone who is unfamiliar: https://www.grca.org/about-grca/grca-code-of-ethics/. 

In this post from last year, it appears that some people pointed out that your girls were too young to have clearances and too young to be bred. That would mean that you were not meeting the GRCA code of ethics. As you know the OFA database is publicly available and you should be providing the registered names and/or the registration numbers of your breeding dogs so that prospective puppy buyers can verify their clearances. If you've now started doing that, good, that's an improvement. Keep improving.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So, the thing is that there is a standard of ethical breeding when it comes to Health Certifications. In the US that is set by the GRCA and leverages OFA substantially. It seems that you may not have taken the few minutes to research responsible breeding practices when it comes to health, so here is a link that might help you. https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/health-research/health-screenings-for-the-parents-of-a-litter/

If you are not meeting the minimum standards (Hips X-rayed and evaluated at or after 24 months, Elbows X-rayed and evaluated at or after 24 months, Heart certifications completed by a Cardiologist at or after 12 months, Eye certifications completed each year by an AVCO veterinarian) AND having that all independently verifiable online, it will be publicly discussed. That is not ill-will. It is educating the public that some breeders will make claims that are not demonstrably true. 

As an example, it would be inaccurate to claim your bitch Desert Moon Stella Rose has full health certifications. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2036225
Her record on www.ofa.org clear shows three test results that are deficient and fall short of being what in the Golden Retriever breed would be full certifications. It has nothing to do with how the dogs are raised or that the volume of dogs you have would likely appeal to Hollywood. It has everything to do with a clearly defined standard that is publicly verifiable and very clear, public record that your dogs are not meeting it. 

If you want to avoid less than stellar health certifications on your dogs being disclosed, it is easy. Just do the appropriate health certifications at the appropriate ages and pay the nominal fees to have it all up on OFA.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

VailRanchGoldens said:


> I am so blown away that people have nothing better to do than hurt people they don’t know, who are truly trying to make a difference. Why don’t you focus your energy onto shutting down on-line scam artists, puppy mills, dog slaughterhouses and the like.
> Vail Ranch Goldens is 5 stars rated with no complaints from ANY of our clients. Why would a breeder 3,000 miles away write such horrible things about a company they have never spoken too, met or even purchased a puppy from? After contacting our attorney, they did research and connected these people to a past employee who was terminated for not living up to their high dog care standards and was asked to leave. Because they signed a non-disclosure, they personally could not post negative comments. It was clear that they had someone they knew start this malicious post. Their attorney has sent seize and desist letter to have all the slander and defamation post be deleted as there was no facts backing up their claims.
> What blows my mind is that we strive every day to go above and beyond to make sure our dogs are family raised on a 5-acre ranch free to run, swim and paly all day and never put in cemented and chain-link kennels. They are surrounded by over 20 volunteers and staff, family and friends and have so much fun and love every day. As clearly shown on our Facebook page daily. Vail Ranch Goldens.
> Every client that comes to our personal home/Ranch, gets a private consultation and are shown all AKC, OFA’s, Genetic and DNA test results and a performance from their Advanced and VIP trained dogs before they financially commit. So obviously none of their families had guns put to their heads or any concerns at the time they signed their health guaranteed contracts and took a puppy home. Then there is all the follow up reviews with nothing but rave reviews. Desert Moon Stella Rose has had her OFA on hips, elbows and heart with all positive results.
> ...


You just keep giving ammunition against yourself/Val Ranch Goldens. The dog you posted the name of (Desert Moon Stella Rose) is possibly the worst example you could have chosen. There are no eyes certifications, heart cert done by practitioner (cardiologists are REQUIRED) so it is a deficient certification, and hip and elbows are prelims which are usually worthless. They were done at 21 months so likely aren't going to change much in 3 months, but the GRCA code of ETHICS states they (both hips AND elbows) are required to be done at 24 months or older.

With all of this... The OFA page for that dog is generally useless. Either they are on purpose due to the fact you wanted to breed that dog early or are the result of a breeder that's only been in business for 2 years as you say and have no clue what they are doing. So instead of having your nose all bent and being so defensive and acting like people are going after you... Maybe, just maybe, you might be a better person and take the criticism and use it to understand what your program is lacking and what you don't understand and come out and acknowledge that it will help you lean and better your progress from.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There's a culture clash here, bc the breeders you are lambasting have been giving passion and devotion to the breed for 30, 40 years, not 2. At 15 years breeding according to GRCA's ethos, those of us in that bracket still know we have young programs. 

1) breed only dogs with board certified Cardiologist clear hearts, Hip and Elbows passing, eyes, passed by a board certified ophthalmologist . Join your local breed club, because clinics make this more affordable. 

2) Prove your dogs in some venues that show they possess the traits detailed in the breed standard. Do CCA and CGC at very minimum. Try Rally, Obedience, Agility, hunt tests, show ring- just get out there and meet your peers. 

3) breed one litter at a time, and raise the babies with Puppy Culture and Avidog


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

VailRanchGoldens said:


> I am so blown away that people have nothing better to do than hurt people they don’t know, who are truly trying to make a difference. Why don’t you focus your energy onto shutting down on-line scam artists, puppy mills, dog slaughterhouses and the like.
> Vail Ranch Goldens is 5 stars rated with no complaints from ANY of our clients. Why would a breeder 3,000 miles away write such horrible things about a company they have never spoken too, met or even purchased a puppy from? After contacting our attorney, they did research and connected these people to a past employee who was terminated for not living up to their high dog care standards and was asked to leave. Because they signed a non-disclosure, they personally could not post negative comments. It was clear that they had someone they knew start this malicious post. Their attorney has sent seize and desist letter to have all the slander and defamation post be deleted as there was no facts backing up their claims.
> What blows my mind is that we strive every day to go above and beyond to make sure our dogs are family raised on a 5-acre ranch free to run, swim and paly all day and never put in cemented and chain-link kennels. They are surrounded by over 20 volunteers and staff, family and friends and have so much fun and love every day. As clearly shown on our Facebook page daily. Vail Ranch Goldens.
> Every client that comes to our personal home/Ranch, gets a private consultation and are shown all AKC, OFA’s, Genetic and DNA test results and a performance from their Advanced and VIP trained dogs before they financially commit. So obviously none of their families had guns put to their heads or any concerns at the time they signed their health guaranteed contracts and took a puppy home. Then there is all the follow up reviews with nothing but rave reviews. Desert Moon Stella Rose has had her OFA on hips, elbows and heart with all positive results.
> ...



So, prefacing this with my new disclosure : I don't post anything that cannot be substantiated.

Your first paragraph- answer is because to those of us who are GR preservationists, there is no real difference between a person who does not adhere to the Code of Ethics and the other less-thans you list. All the same in my eyes- none of them have the breed's interest at heart. And nothing I read in this thread is an opinion- the posts are verifiable facts. No one was attempting to 'hurt' you- everyone was attempting to give the puppy person accurate info ,since accurate info was not readily available on your site full of smoke and mirrors. 

Because you 'just launched ' 2 years ago, the research done prior to 'launch' was lacking. If it was not, then education was lacking. One of the two. Among other things, good breeders desire a depth of clearances in their bitches and look for same in the stud dogs they hire (hiring is a key as well, as you cannot possibly own the best dog in the country/world for all your girls). 

Here is one of your girls: https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2036225 Please click on it and read along w me, I will tell you what I and everyone else w more than 2 years in Goldens sees there: I see preliminary hip and elbows. Preliminary ortho clearances are not to be bred on, just to look-see, but she has already had at least one litter and I think two... and these are Fair prelims.. I also see an inadequate cardiac clearance- a practitioner clearance is laughably useless for a Golden imo .. and I see no eyes. Eyes should be done yearly and sent to OFA for verification and listing. 

I see her sire appears to have failed his elbows, and her dam has no clearances whatever. Before I move along to the grandparents, please click on the sire's name. That will take you to his page. 

There, I see fully half the tested offspring his sire has produced failed hips. Immediately, with Fair prelims, I would be concerned that Stella may not pass her finals even though she got prelims... because the finals will be under the scrutiny of three ortho specialists instead of one, as in prelims. I'm also curious at this point if Kassi Roo failed her prelims ...dk, but she too had at least one litter and I see nothing re: her. And one offspring seems to have failed elbows. As well, half his dam's offspring look to have failed elbows. At this point, you might be wondering if she is a good breeding risk. I hope you are. Since she appears to be on her second litter, that is a lot of risk you have put out there for the families who love their puppies and should be able to trust their breeder. 
There is more. For any good breeder, that's just the teeny tiny tip of the iceberg on the research one should be doing. One should NEVER be breeding with no knowledge to speak of, and on prelims. 

And as Eric said, perhaps you are all bent out of shape because we here criticized your breeding program. If Goldens are important to you in ways other than the pocketbook, you ought to be taking notes on how to improve it. The Code also addresses how to treat others and I believe we all follow it. We don't post inaccuracies, we try not to throw emotion in it. IMHO (opinion) you'd do well to go back and read each sentence in this thread from last year and correct whatever is criticized so that you would be breeding more ethically. Read all the informationals posted there too. LJACK worked hard on making them so that just about anyone can understand them. 

So, that brings me to the other thing I was curious about in your post- this: 

"Why would a breeder 3,000 miles away write such horrible things about a company they have never spoken too, met or even purchased a puppy from? After contacting our attorney, they did research and connected these people to a past employee who was terminated for not living up to their high dog care standards and was asked to leave. Because they signed a non-disclosure, they personally could not post negative comments. It was clear that they had someone they knew start this malicious post. Their attorney has sent seize and desist letter to have all the slander and defamation post be deleted as there was no facts backing up their claims." 

I call bull on that one. 
I do not believe you contacted an attorney, or even if you did, I do not believe they did CSI level research that uncovers 'connections', nor do I believe you have an employee that signed a non-disclosure (why would you require this? that's suspicious on it's own but I am having a hard time following your tense changes so ...) who was 'connected' to one of us.... 

All posts in this thread contain facts pointed out re: your "company's" lacks as far as what is accepted as safe breeding goes. There's an actual 'how to' in the Code of Ethics!! Everything criticizing your program is accurate and no amount of 'phone calls to discuss' as you suggest would change a single one of them unless you decided to put on the brakes w the breeding and start doing things more safely for your buyers and the puppies. This has nothing to do with concrete kennels. Some of the very best breeders have concrete kennels. Puppy-mill extraordinare often do not... 
All you have done here is provide more impetus to uncover more fabrications and elusions. Come back when you want to do the right thing. Someone will help you. 

Puppy people post here to have someone uninvolved lay out the genetic risk for particular litters. That's a good thing. And easy enough to assess- we don't care if your dogs are the cat's meow- we can only point out the lacks or plusses in your breedings with the information that's readily available. For instance, on your girls Kassi Roo and Stella Rose, I used BOM bucks to fill in their pedigrees on k9data. How about this- you go into k9data and put all the rest of your dogs there. Accurately. No silliness like '9X CH titles' or whatever- just the facts. 
So that you understand, K9data is our breed's historical register. To be entire, we also have the GRCA Yearbook, but that is for dogs titled and in pedigrees with titles. K9data is user input data, so not 100% all the time but we do have fabulous monitors who take silliness out when they see it and then lock the dog if it persists. 
If you want to PM your dogs' reg info to me, I would happily take the time to make them records there and then you could put in photos if you like. Using k9data does not make a good breeder -but using it does show that the breeder uses all the tools we have to do good research. You could do test breedings if the dogs were in the database. It's be easier to see risk that way. I bet right now (opinion) you are thinking to yourself something along the lines of 'why would I send her my reg info? Is she crazy?'....(back to fact) well, no I am not. I make k9data pages every day of the week. This breed is important to me, and regardless of how ethical a breeder is, if a dog is bred, the dog needs to be in k9data. Actually, most of the dogs I input are from marginal breeders/pedigrees, those are the people who do not know k9data is available for everyone. Years from now when you are dead and gone it will be important to others who have your dogs' offspring to be able to track back. So whether I believe you or not on the lawyer thing, and whether I respect you or not, I do think it is owed to your puppy people and to the breed to have a k9data record... and I am willing to invest the time if you send me the reg info. Just like I invested the dollars in Kassi Roo and Stella Rose pedigrees. I've got others on my list for this month such as Desert Moon Lexi, mentioned here (from your site): 
"We are excited to announce that we have a brand new litter of AKC Champion bloodlines both sides of 1/2 European English Creams and 1/2 American Standards born January 20, 2019. Parents are Desert Moon Lexi and Jester 1x "
So, Jester IX- he's lacking a sufficient cardiac exam and he has no eye clearance on OFA. His parents both appear to have failed elbows. There are ZERO CH in 5 gen on him. So that bit is untrue also, and may be untrue on Lexi, don't know till I get her pedigree this month. And Lexi- she hasn't got the first clearance. How in the world you think you are doing such a great job, when you publish inaccuracies right and left (remember, you do state you do full OFAs on your site) and breed animals on preliminaries, post logos for competitions you haven't got the first idea how to begin to enter the world of (Master National- really?) and you have the gall to come here and complain about your hurt feelings? How are you any different from any run of the mill puppy producer? 

Why have the Master National logo on your page if not to trick buyers into thinking you have high level competition dogs? The intent to deceive.. always a curious thing to me. Why? 
Why not try to be the BEST YOU CAN? Transparency is so important, especially in a breed with health issues. 

According to your webpage, all your breeding animals have full OFA clearances on your website. We have earlier pointed out that they do not. Why does your site make such a claim of health when it is inaccurate? Anna Princess of Cremes, for another example- nothing but hips. Did she fail elbows, and you bred her anyway? No heart no eyes? You do see that this contradicts what you state on your site? 

I'm sorry you, like others whose programs were peer reviewed to be lacking, are upset. I would suggest to you to do some real research and at least starting today begin to follow the Code in your breedings. I'd also suggest you clean up the website and make it transparent and not a sales tool. Try to see it as your piece of history, something that represents you well and honestly. When you are dead and gone do you want a bunch of meaningless and untrue hype as your legacy or do you want a real picture of who you are and what you have done?
IF you truly want to be a good breeder of Goldens, there is much work to be done. I'm happy to help you, as are most of the people here who have the Golden Retriever interest at heart. Your post is such a fabulous example of 'what you don't know'. 


And just for the record- so that we have it for the day someone has time to research :

"Please watch for puppies coming available from our girls:

AKC Zoe (red), AKC Butters, AKC Logan's Little Buttercup, AKC Anna Princess of Creams 100% English Cream Champ, AKC Desert Moon Kassi Roo 100%English Cream Champ, AKC Desert Moon Stella Rose 100% English Cream Champ, AKC Desert Moon Lexi 50% American 50% English Cream Champ

*Stud Services Now Available*

Sires:

AKC Sonic The Hedge Dog (red), AKC Jester IX (red), AKC Desert Moon Dozer English Cream, AKC Desert Moon Ranger English Cream
(National Field Champion on Pedigrees) AKA Champion English Cream Olaf"


and notes for that day someone wants to do some research, here are the dogs, bitches left undone. 
Pedigree: Jester IX Jester IX, https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1963246
No AKC REG ON DOG NAMED SONIC THE HEDGE DOG
Dozer- Pedigree: Desert Moon Bulldozer https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1926873 
Ranger- Pedigree: Desert Moon Ranger https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1977098 
Olaf- Pedigree: Int. Ch. Lake Country Chadwick's Thevenet Dely Amore' https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1710768 He's not an AKC CH as she might have meant to state in her promo for upcoming litters- unless there is some off the wall group called AKA I don't know about at my advanced age.


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## VailRanchGoldens (Jun 12, 2019)

*Proper info before speaking*

The information you are refeering too was old and have since updated as soon as the girls were old enough. Also I do appriciate the advice and being new to breeding myself, I have invested into pedigrees that have top of the line pedigrees with parents and grandparents with good and great OFA results and the such, currently babies, so i will not be breeding them clearly until they are old enough. As for my mis-spelling ceize and desist i was text talking from my phone.

Our Male Sonic is listed under the name "Sonic The Hedge Dog" hence the reason you could not locate his AKC info. AKC# SR86106805 
The other males are my partners studs Jester, Dozer and Olaf I do not own them nor have I ever mis-led my customers to that fact.
Desert Moon Kassi- Roo has not been bred in over a year and only once and is now being used as a therapy and training as a service dog.
Desert Moon Stella-Rose has been and has had her OFA testing done on 2/27/2019 as soon as she became old enough
Heart was Normal OFA number GR-CA34271/21F/P-VPI 
Hips and elbows negitive for elbow dysplasisa Hips were Fair 
Also all 4 of my dogs were DNA and Genetic tested all 22 pages came back with clear results!

I show every customer binders with tabs very organized with each dogs AKC, OFA's including grandparents and DNA/Genetic tests. It's there choice to move forward. I never hide anything.

Neither Sonic or Kassi Roo are breeding anymore because we have trained them to be Therapy and service dogs as shown on my social media pages.

As for my attorney his name is Newell Cumming and he has been contacted and in the process of sending you a letter. Feel free to contact him and verify. 
951-302-5220

My question to all of you is if you had any concerns why would you publically bash me, instead of contacting me and offering advice?


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

I’m a little confused about your timeline, because your home page says “VAIL RANCH GOLDENS
BREEDING CHAMPION DOGS SINCE 1970”, but in your replies here you said you’re new to it and you just launched two years ago.


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## Ironworker (Jun 18, 2019)

Well once again this forum has saved me from a heart ache and loss of money. I was going to buy a 5 month old pup from them. Can't thank everyone enough .


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## TARA'S MOM (Jul 8, 2019)

ironworker said:


> well once again this forum has saved me from a heart ache and loss of money. I was going to buy a 5 month old pup from them. Can't thank everyone enough .


you made a mistake not buying that puppy. Their dogs and puppy's are amazing. Not sure why they are getting slammed by a so called breeder so far away who has never been to see this breeder's facility. You should go for yourself before you make a decision so you can verify everything and not go by hearsay from a unhappy person trying to darker a reputation of a very conscientious person who loves animals and give 100% to make sure they are as presented. Documents should be available for your inspection. 

There are testimonies galore and many of them talk about other breeders and the difference that they experienced with vail ranch goldens. Again so see for yourself then you can decide based on facts.


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## flammableone (Jan 17, 2020)

VailRanchGoldens said:


> *Proper info before speaking*
> 
> The information you are refeering too was old and have since updated as soon as the girls were old enough. Also I do appriciate the advice and being new to breeding myself, I have invested into pedigrees that have top of the line pedigrees with parents and grandparents with good and great OFA results and the such, currently babies, so i will not be breeding them clearly until they are old enough. As for my mis-spelling ceize and desist i was text talking from my phone.
> 
> ...


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## flammableone (Jan 17, 2020)

From personal experience, does this lawyer have any idea who you are? The one you threatened my family with, for reasons that didn’t exist, does not. It’s illegal to forge legal documents. No one was spreading information about your business once they quit, but family in DC and is looking into it now.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Brought this breeding "program" to my attention again...I wish I could figure out how to read the site re: who is sire X dam of the multiple multiple litters there.... I would wish she would have gotten correct clearances on her breeding animals but I suspect prolly nothing has changed. I did look Lexi up again- still inadequate heart and she bred her on prelims. Fair prelims- when given her family history of lots of fails back there that is a super risky thing for her puppy families. .the only thing I noticed on her site that looked different was this statement: *We also have older trained and untrained puppies from 6 months to one year old.*
Who has untrained 6-12 month old puppies? That's just crazy.
And yes- it IS illegal to pretend to be a lawyer - like, jail time illegal.


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## Mel9534 (Sep 27, 2020)

I wished I have read this thread before committing to get a puppy from Vail Ranch.

I waited since 5th of May for my puppy from Vail Ranch Goldens, and yesterday, Branda the owner of VRG just flipped on me and tell me she will give me a full refund.

A little backstory, I am a first time dog owner, called VRG on 5th May to inquire about getting a puppy from them. Knowing that they are located in Temecula, I asked Branda whether they can deliver to Los Angeles. Her response is yes, they can absolutely do that.

She quoted me $3500 for the puppy - I found out later in one of their secret chat groups that the puppy is a much lower price, and there is a full orientation training program that was hard sell to the other families at $3500. So, I paid a much higher price than others - No problem with that. On top of the $3500, there is another $300 for delivery from Temecula to Los Angeles, and another $500 for me to choose a popular puppy (apparently everyone wants that puppy, so $500 more for it) - I am happy to pay for it, not price sensitive since this puppy is important to me.

3 months later, I saw 1 of the dogs give birth on their Facebook page. I sent Branda my blessings and asked if that is the puppy I signed up for - It was a reddish Retriever, not the one I chose. For some reason, she told me the reddish retriever is much smarter than the golden retriever, and she tried to talk me into getting that instead. Apparently she did that to quite a couple of other families.

Fast forward 4 months later, when I am closer to the puppy selection day, the only way for me to choose a puppy is to do it through FaceTime.


September 3rd, 8:17pm, she texted me that she is free now and if I can facetime her. It was super sudden for me as I was still working, did not see my phone.
8:38pm: Branda sent another message saying it’s too late now, try again tomorrow.
8:40pm: I apologize to her for not seeing the message, but can call her at her convenience the next day (Being super nice in my messages)
8:44pm: Branda texted me asking me to remind her the next day at 11am, she will see where her schedule is at (Dude, I have 2 full-time assistants and I would never treat my customers like one. I have to REMIND you?) Nevermind, I will do just that.

4 September
11:26am: Hey Branda, is now a good time? (Me)
11:27am: No, I have doctor appointment, I will have to do it later (Branda)
11:28am: Okay, please let me know. Thank you (Me)
12:28pm: Send me a text reminder around 2pm and we can do the FaceTime between 2-3pm (Branda) - _Seriously? I have to keep reminding you?_

2:11pm: Hi Branda, is now a good time? (Me)
2:46pm: I just got home, are you available now? (Branda)
2:52pm: Yes, can I call you now? (me)
2:58pm: You won’t believe this but I just got home and the staff had not fed them yet so they’re doing that now so I’m trying to find a time to make this happen it’s not working out (Branda)
3:06pm: Okay, no problem. Can you let me know when is a good time? (me)

She did not reply for 1 day - which is fine, I just checked in with her to ask when is a good time, since I paid deposit for priority pick, and I did not want to miss it.

1 day later, she told me she would deal with my FaceTime later, she hurt her shoulder, she’s in bed in pain. — Ok, benefit of doubt. Can’t get one of your interns to video it for me? How difficult is that?

A few days later, I found out from other families that they are going to choose their puppies. Dude, I paid for priority pick, is VRG not going to honor that? So, I worried and start to call Branda. This time, she told me she can FaceTime me and let me choose — Mind you, she was silent for the last couple of days before selection day.

The first call with Branda took 3 minutes for me to pick one, I changed my mind 10 minutes later and asked her nicely if I can re-select, since I have priority pick, and none of the other families have chosen theirs yet. She did not reply at first, but I heard from other families that she complaint about my indecisiveness - Interesting that a business owner would complaint about a customer in front of other customers. To be fair, the FaceTime quality was pixelated and I could not see much. I asked her to send me a video, so I can take my time to pick - She told me that FaceTime would be better since I can observe the behaviour - I don’t think she was going to allow me to FaceTime with her for 30 minutes to observe the puppies behaviour? 

So, I picked one and we agreed on a delivery date of 27th September. I reminded her again (nicely) closer to the day.

She sent me a long checklist, which I was appreciative of. Gave me puppy advices - Knowing I am a first time puppy owner. I asked her some questions, but never dumb questions. I did research as well, and my office has a lot of dog owners. My work team was prepared to take care of the puppy.
I bought so many things to welcome him, bought 2 cages (one for office, one for home) lots of things such as filtered water dispenser, dog bed, toys. I bought 2 sets of each - One for office and one for home.


On 24th September, I texted Branda and ask if I can pay the balance since the delivery is this coming 27th September. She said “no, sorry she has other families to deal with and they are important. I am the only one she has to make special arrangements to deliver to LA”

WOW, just wow. That was literally my first question when I first called her. And we agreed to a date. She made it sound like she is doing me a favor. Although I am paying additional $300 for delivery, I have not once sound entitled. If she suggest another date for delivery, I would be fine.

instead, she said that she has to pay a staff to drive to LA to special deliver the puppy. Ok, but this was the agreement from the get-go? If Branda was apologetic and nice about it, I would be 100% cool with it. I replied “Oh wow” — She responded: “You know what, I don’t think you are suitable for a dog, I would refund you”

Then, she go on saying other families are paying top dollar for her dogs and she has a certain way that she run her company. I don’t get why she is bragging to me, or trying to put herself on a high horse — Your employees are mostly kids. I run a team of 25 full time adult employees and have no problems being nice to my customers — I told her exactly that.

Told her I will go with the refund, she has no replied me in 2 days. Cool.

I have joined 2 different small communities that has vail ranch puppies, and the people ABSOLUTELY detest her. They just want the puppies and get it over with. The entire time I kept being nice, and just try to be understanding — being a breeder of so many puppies is definitely not easy. However, VRG is only in business since 2018 — Dog breeding is not a proprietary business, your reputation is the only thing keeping you alive. 
The way I was treated was just pure crap, and the amount of communities that are building say a ton of things about Branda behind her back. 

I also read previous threads saying she engage her lawyers...? Although I have all the messages kept in my phone, everything I said is nothing but the truth — I am pretty certain she is going to come up with some lawyer claim — And if that happens, good luck with that. You are not messing with another dog breeder, I do have resources to play with Vail Ranch for as long as they want to keep up (Not a flex but the truth) Branda can easily search me up and see the businesses I am running, they are all operational for years.

I am not going to sue just for a bad experience, but if she does try, I would be happy to oblige.

They have not given me a refund, again, I’m not going to try and sue to get my money back. I would just politely ask her a few more times, and keep this thread updated.

Raising awareness for any potential dog owners, don’t bother getting from Vail Ranch. I waited for 4 months amounting to nothing but bad experiences.

If you follow their Facebook, it is all about how busy she is — Gosh, don’t complain already. If you don’t have the stomach to run a business, then go get a job. If you have the audacity to own a business, treat your customers well. At least, with manners and not with such attitude.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Well, I've now looked Lexi up a third time. She STILL does not have full clearances, is being bred on fair prelims and I see zero changes in how this woman does business. I'm sorry for you- and for anyone who buys her dogs. Not a single animal on her website has full clearances, and Lexi, bred the first time @ under 18 mo _by the SBdate_ came out of a dam who did not pass elbows... very risky.


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## Mel9534 (Sep 27, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> Well, I've now looked Lexi up a third time. She STILL does not have full clearances, is being bred on fair prelims and I see zero changes in how this woman does business. I'm sorry for you- and for anyone who buys her dogs. Not a single animal on her website has full clearances, and Lexi, bred the first time @ under 18 mo _by the SBdate_ came out of a dam who did not pass elbows... very risky.


Can you go into details? And how you search?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Here is a tutorial on how to research.


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## Mel9534 (Sep 27, 2020)

Update: after 3 days, Branda from VRG has not responded to any of my text messages.

She can use Facebook to create posts but not take the time to reply a client message.

This has also been a big complaint with other families, that this owner cannot take the time to reply message, or reluctant to message - saying that she is not free, but she always has the time to make Facebook posts.

just wow!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Start w K9data- take the reg number and go to OFA. 
The registration number often has a date behind it in parenthesis- like, (10-17) which is the date the dog entered the stud book- so is usually a few months after first litter. That's an inference but a reliable one.
OFA things missing are easy enough to make deductions from . 
Lexi is risky.


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## Mel9534 (Sep 27, 2020)

Update: 28 September
Brands refused to refund, tell me she is going to engage her lawyer to sue me for harassment?

She has been reading this thread, so more conversation about her the more people know about what kind of place Vail Ranch is about.

will keep this thread updated about the legal actions that I am taking and the whole process


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## Mel9534 (Sep 27, 2020)

Also, she told me that she has sold the dog away to some “wealthy guy with a Swimming pool at his backyard” 

Shallow


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## Mel9534 (Sep 27, 2020)

VailRanchGoldens said:


> I am so blown away that people have nothing better to do than hurt people they don’t know, who are truly trying to make a difference. Why don’t you focus your energy onto shutting down on-line scam artists, puppy mills, dog slaughterhouses and the like.
> Vail Ranch Goldens is 5 stars rated with no complaints from ANY of our clients. Why would a breeder 3,000 miles away write such horrible things about a company they have never spoken too, met or even purchased a puppy from? After contacting our attorney, they did research and connected these people to a past employee who was terminated for not living up to their high dog care standards and was asked to leave. Because they signed a non-disclosure, they personally could not post negative comments. It was clear that they had someone they knew start this malicious post. Their attorney has sent seize and desist letter to have all the slander and defamation post be deleted as there was no facts backing up their claims.
> What blows my mind is that we strive every day to go above and beyond to make sure our dogs are family raised on a 5-acre ranch free to run, swim and paly all day and never put in cemented and chain-link kennels. They are surrounded by over 20 volunteers and staff, family and friends and have so much fun and love every day. As clearly shown on our Facebook page daily. Vail Ranch Goldens.
> Every client that comes to our personal home/Ranch, gets a private consultation and are shown all AKC, OFA’s, Genetic and DNA test results and a performance from their Advanced and VIP trained dogs before they financially commit. So obviously none of their families had guns put to their heads or any concerns at the time they signed their health guaranteed contracts and took a puppy home. Then there is all the follow up reviews with nothing but rave reviews. Desert Moon Stella Rose has had her OFA on hips, elbows and heart with all positive results.
> ...


Don't manipulate the audience. I am a customer that you screwed over, kept the dog and refuse to refund me. You are not want of the most in-demand breeder, lots of your customers create secret groups to share their negative experiences.


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## Smitty1 (Mar 24, 2021)

Mel9534 said:


> Don't manipulate the audience. I am a customer that you screwed over, kept the dog and refuse to refund me. You are not want of the most in-demand breeder, lots of your customers create secret groups to share their negative experiences.


I am the "rich"guy she sold your pup to us to be trained as a service dog.We had no idea what took place with you.We had put down our ten year old Golden in Sept and we contacted VGR and was told there was a pick of the litter available to be picked up on 9/27.We went and picked up Bear who had the original name Gizmo?Everything seemed in order with OFA etc.We signed up for training as my wife has MS and our current service dog is ready to retire.If fact after a few weeks we decided to buy another red Golden.As a few weeks went by we were concerned with trainer turnover and our pups were not being trained by AKC standards in order to become service dogs.I asked for a report card as well as what was going to be accomplished during the week of training.I didnt get either.In fact I was insulted by this breeder saying I had my feeling hurt because she said We were training the pups at home.Im a retired NY lawyer...my feeling dont get hurt.My wife took over any conversation from that point on.Our dogs were not getting trained.She fired her staff.Told us about one of her top trainers was using her credit card for his own personal use.They have all our credit cards on file.Scary.So because we were raising concerns that our pups were not being trained and she felt this was negative.....she kicked both my pups out of her training.We paid 8 k for training.We got taken by all the fluff and what on the outside a great place to buy and train a couple of beautiful sweet goldens.Now we worry about the health of our pups long term.Will they have hip issues?Eye issues?Elbow issues?We trusted this person.It is all for show!We are trying to get some of our money back.Im sure we will end up in court.We have so many text msgs from the breeder that will back our story.In this forum she stated that Sonic wasnt being studded anymore...stated as of June 2019....he is the father of my dog Bear.She has blamed everyone but herself.Her staff,covid.We still do not have any of the AKC papers on either dog that we have asked for.I spoke to her stated lawyer yesterday.All he said to me was good luck!We bought these goldens to be trained to be service dogs...they hardly know sit and stay.My wife has MS.We were told that she would train our dogs to pass the tests.We paid 16 k to this woman.We were caught up in the pitch...the show...the stated fact that we would have 2 great service dogs we will now sue and find a reputable trainer for our 2 boys.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Oh, my, what an absolutely horrible perfect storm. I know you were trusting, just as Mel was, but this breeder is not a good breeder. IF you have sire x dam reg names, please call AKC registration department and without muddying waters, make a complaint that you did not get the registration application. The rest of it will just slow down the process (much as AKC needs to know what's going on, I'd suggest you get those papers before you file any complaints w them against her) and that advice does not affect your legal proceedings, go on w that too and tell all there. With AKC, keep it simple and easy for them to help you.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Stella Rose- Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO still has not got correct clearances. Is still being used on prelims, still has an insufficient heart exam, by a pet vet not a cardiologist, and Dozer Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO still does not have passing elbow clearance, eye clearance. At least half of his tested offspring still do not have passing elbows. At least half of his paternal half sibs still have hip dysplasia, and 25% of his tested paternal half sibs failed elbows. Note also the supposed CSI level sleuthing has never been proven, nor do any of us have anything to do with this substandard breeder's program. Desert Moon Lexi still hasn't got the first clearance (and she has been bred) Pedigree: Desert Moon Lexi 
From the website today-All of our puppies parents are AKC registered _no brainer _have Champion bloodlines _this is the case for every single Golden- there is a Ch somewhere back there- but this breeder has not created any CH of her own unless it is the pay-for-title Int CH, _OFA certified _patently untrue as the implication is FULLY OFA CERT which is absolutely not true_

Sonic is still being bred, a litter just on the ground last month from him to Stella. 
Who knows who Atlas is, the latest stud dujour.... this breeder does not share registered names on her site, so that puppy seekers cannot possibly verify they are worth inquiring on.


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## ChrisFromOC (Sep 19, 2018)

Smitty1 said:


> I am the "rich"guy she sold your pup to us to be trained as a service dog.We had no idea what took place with you.We had put down our ten year old Golden in Sept and we contacted VGR and was told there was a pick of the litter available to be picked up on 9/27.We went and picked up Bear who had the original name Gizmo?Everything seemed in order with OFA etc.We signed up for training as my wife has MS and our current service dog is ready to retire.If fact after a few weeks we decided to buy another red Golden.As a few weeks went by we were concerned with trainer turnover and our pups were not being trained by AKC standards in order to become service dogs.I asked for a report card as well as what was going to be accomplished during the week of training.I didnt get either.In fact I was insulted by this breeder saying I had my feeling hurt because she said We were training the pups at home.Im a retired NY lawyer...my feeling dont get hurt.My wife took over any conversation from that point on.Our dogs were not getting trained.She fired her staff.Told us about one of her top trainers was using her credit card for his own personal use.They have all our credit cards on file.Scary.So because we were raising concerns that our pups were not being trained and she felt this was negative.....she kicked both my pups out of her training.We paid 8 k for training.We got taken by all the fluff and what on the outside a great place to buy and train a couple of beautiful sweet goldens.Now we worry about the health of our pups long term.Will they have hip issues?Eye issues?Elbow issues?We trusted this person.It is all for show!We are trying to get some of our money back.Im sure we will end up in court.We have so many text msgs from the breeder that will back our story.In this forum she stated that Sonic wasnt being studded anymore...stated as of June 2019....he is the father of my dog Bear.She has blamed everyone but herself.Her staff,covid.We still do not have any of the AKC papers on either dog that we have asked for.I spoke to her stated lawyer yesterday.All he said to me was good luck!We bought these goldens to be trained to be service dogs...they hardly know sit and stay.My wife has MS.We were told that she would train our dogs to pass the tests.We paid 16 k to this woman.We were caught up in the pitch...the show...the stated fact that we would have 2 great service dogs we will now sue and find a reputable trainer for our 2 boys.


Smitty, best of luck to you. Hopefully you can separate the issue of litigating against the breeder and figuring out how to raise and train two pups and incorporate them into your family. While in hindsight we all would surely prefer to have well-bred puppies to stack the deck in our dogs’ favor and decrease the changes of health or behavioral problems, we sadly cannot go back in time. Our first golden was from a breeder who loved her dogs for sure but did not know much about breeding or really strive to improve her lines. He was a great dog and while I know now that he did not really have many of the physical traits a well bred dog would have, he still worked out well for our family. I’m just trying to point out that hopefully these two young pups will turn out to be great additions to your family, despite their less than ideal start to life.


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