# Anyone Heard of this breeder?



## NancyLu

Whiskey Creek Goldens
P.O. box 1064 Scappoose Or, 97056

I have a friend who is looking for a golden retriever puppy. 
Does anyone out there in Oregon or Washington know if this breeder is reputable?

Thanks!


----------



## Pointgold

Have your friend proceed with eyes open and to make sure that any health certs are up to date - looks like CERF eye checks are out dated. There are some "embellishments" on the webstie - ie the AKC win that is referred to on the webiste (for Maggie - dam of current litter) was a 1st place in the Am Bred Class. She was the only dog entered.

**Actually, there ARE no CERF eye checks - _maybe_ they had an exam in 2006 but if they did they never sent it in. Nor is there a cardiac clearance although their web site states "SAS clear". I'd be very cautious.


----------



## NancyLu

Thank you so much, Pointgold. I don't want to have anyone make the mistakes I made when picking my beautiful Summer Lynn. It was a painful journey and a $13,000.00 loss for us. However, she was meant to be with us and is worth every cent spent.


----------



## Pointgold

Just checked a bit further - the sire of the litter is listed as Ch Terins In The Public Eye. (It's actually Teran's) He is a 9 year old dog, and is also not in the CERF data base, nor does he have a cardiac clearance, although both are claimed on the website of his owner. I'm not sure why he has a Teran's prefix, since Teran is Terry Neider, in in K9 his breeder is listed a M. McNeil. In any regards, some things just don't seem to add upso I would encourage lots of questions be asked.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

"Just checked a bit further - the sire of the litter is listed as Ch Terins In The Public Eye. (It's actually Teran's) He is a 9 year old dog, and is also not in the CERF data base, nor does he have a cardiac clearance, although both are claimed on the website of his owner. I'm not sure why he has a Teran's prefix, since Teran is Terry Neider, in in K9 his breeder is listed a M. McNeil. In any regards, some things just don't seem to add upso I would encourage lots of questions be asked."

I am the owner of Maggie and a gal by the name of Mary Peed is Winks owner. She bought him from Terry when he was about two years old along with a bitch by the name of Magenta. Mary finished winks CH in Portland oregon. Magenta had a medical issue and had to be payed I do not know if she was shown 

You are speculating that our dogs do not have the proper clearances, I assure you that they do. I have record of all. So I do not choose to send them on to OFA that is my choice. I would be happy to provide them to anyone who asks. 

I am a member or our national and local golden club in good standing and am also listed on the breeder list. I abide by the code of ethics set forth by the national club. 

Maggie is a UKC and international CH. Maggie was only in one AKC show as she hated to show so why stress her out over it. She and Wink together produced two lovely litters. Please feel free so snoop some more please take note of Willa, Madison and Paige all three are showing and are beautiful examples of the breed.

everyting on my website is accurate and true. www.whiskeycreekgolden2.com

happy snooping:wavey:


----------



## ragtym

Erm - the site you listed doesn't work and Google says whiskeycreekgoldens.com is infected with Malware...
http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http://whiskeycreekgoldens.com/&hl=en


----------



## BeauShel

whoever your friend goes with make sure they see the up to date clearances on the heart, hip, elbow and eye. Have them read the Puppy Buyers Fact Checker at the top of the forum.


----------



## MGMF

If you don't send the x-ray of hips and elbows to OFA then is doesn't count as a clearance.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Erm - the site you listed doesn't work and Google says whiskeycreekgoldens.com is infected with Malware...
http://www.google.com/safebrowsing/d...ens.com/&hl=en

Yes the original is infected. We are working on getting it fixed please see this new website 

www.whiskeycreekgoldens2.com NOT www.whiskeycreekgoldens.com The other one should be fixed hopefully Tuesday the 13th.


----------



## Pointgold

Hmmm....if you subscribe to the COE of the National Club (I assume that you are referring to GRCA) you would have the clearances. And they WOULD be sent to OFA and CERF, because not doing so does not constitute having clearances.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Hmmm....if you subscribe to the COE of the National Club (I assume that you are referring to GRCA) you would have the clearances. And they WOULD be sent to OFA and CERF, because not doing so does not constitute having clearances. 


Hmmmmmm..... The GRCA code states that they should be done and at what age NOT that you have to mail them into OFA. I have the original docks signed by the vets and once again I give them to every puppy buyer I home a puppy with. That's more than I can say for many breeders. Can you show me where is states "because not doing so does not constitute having clearances." in the code? I can't find it. You might be wrong I know of may breeders that Never send them in. Why should I have to pay for something I already have it is a suggestion not a demand.


----------



## CarolinaCasey

It says a report from OFA or Penn Hip... as they're specialists in their field. 


> a. Hips – for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals; or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older.
> d. Elbows – for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals at 24 months of age or older.


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Hmmm....if you subscribe to the COE of the National Club (I assume that you are referring to GRCA) you would have the clearances. And they WOULD be sent to OFA and CERF, because not doing so does not constitute having clearances.
> 
> 
> Hmmmmmm..... The GRCA code states that they should be done and at what age NOT that you have to mail them into OFA. I have the original docks signed by the vets and once again I give them to every puppy buyer I home a puppy with. That's more than I can say for many breeders. Can you show me where is states "because not doing so does not constitute having clearances." in the code? I can't find it. You might be wrong I know of may breeders that Never send them in. Why should I have to pay for something I already have it is a suggestion not a demand.


Semantics, perhaps? 



From the GRCA:

"A puppy's sire and dam can be screened for these health issues to minimize the risk that their puppies will be affected. A conscientious breeder will provide you the full AKC registered names or registration numbers of the parents. Use this information to verify their health clearances here. "

And FROM THE GRCA's CODE OF ETHICS (you'll see that your interpretation is not accurate...)


GRCA members are expected to follow AKC requirements for record keeping, identification of animals, and registration procedures.
Animals selected for breeding should:
(i) be of temperament typical of the Golden Retriever breed; stable, friendly, trainable, and willing to work. Temperament is of utmost importance to the breed
and must never be neglected;
(ii) be in good health, including freedom from communicable disease;
(iii) possess the following examination reports in order to verify status concerning possible hip dysplasia, hereditary eye or cardiovascular disease, and elbow
dysplasia:
a.​​​​_*Hips *_*– for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals; or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older.* For dogs outside the U.S., report from
a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country (e.g. Canada - Ontario Veterinary College; Great Britain - BVA/KC Hip Score) A
report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.
b. _Eyes _– appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) or from a BVA/KC approved ophthalmologist
(Great Britain), or a report from the Canine Eye Registry Foundation. For dogs outside the U.S., a report from an ophthalmologist as recommended by
the Golden Retriever club of that country after 1 year of age. Examinations must be done within 12 months of a breeding..
c. _Hearts _– appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Medicine, Cardiology Specialty or a certification by the Orthopedic
Foundation for Animals by a cardiologist (the number will be followed by a C) at 12 months of age or older.
d. _*Elbows *_*– for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals at 24 months of age or older.* For dogs outside the U.S., report from a health
registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country at 24 months of age or older. A report from the accepted health registry of another country
may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.
Breeders of Goldens in the U.S. who use health registries from other countries should fully reveal their reasons for doing so. Consideration should be given also
to other disorders that may have a genetic component, including, but not limited to, epilepsy, hypothyroidism, skin disorders (allergies), and orthopedic disorders
such as osteochondritis.
(iv) Assuming all health and examination reports are favorable, the age of the breeding pair also is of consideration. Generally, a Golden Retriever is not physically
and mentally mature until the age of 2 years; an individual dog’s suitability as a breeding animal is difficult to assess until that time.  _Adopted: April
20, 1997, by GRCA Board of Directors; revised to include elbow clearances in May, 2001_​_
_(Rev. 5-01, 2-08)

Just look at the GRN advertising guidelines as regards clearances - it makes it pretty clear what the GRCA's stance is, as well...


----------



## Pointgold

Unless read and rated by the panel at OFA, you have nothing more than a radiograph taken by a practioner. It is not a "clearance". And practioners are often incorrect in their assessments of hips and elbows.


----------



## GoldenSail

Am I missing something? Every dog on their website that is listed with having hips/elbows is verified on OFA with a -VPI (verified permanent identification). The ones that aren't look too young to get clearances....

Now, they don't all have CERF or Cardiac on the OFA website but that doesn't mean they weren't done. It just means they didn't pay the fee and send the record in to be listed....


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

You were not talking originaly about the hip/elbows. Now you are I am talking about CREF and SAS I don't send them in and it is not required by GRCA code of ethics.


----------



## Pointgold

Your site claims CERF-Normal. You are not sending them to CERF, so they are not. They may be Ophthalmologist Tested, but they are not CERF Normal.

I will add that most breeders DO send in their eye and cardiology exams so that there is a complete record in one place. Why not? The cost is minimal.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

What am I missing as well? 

Current litter due July 2010 has both Sire & Dam listed on OFA for hips & elbows. MANY breeders never send eye & heart *REPORTS* into OFA & CERF but provide a copy. The GRCA code of ethics does accept *REPORTS* for eyes & hearts - does not say ONLY an OFA certificate or CERF certificate is accepted:

<<b. Eyes – appropriate *report* from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) or from a BVA/KC approved ophthalmologist
(Great Britain), or a report from the Canine Eye Registry Foundation. For dogs outside the U.S., a report from an ophthalmologist as recommended by
the Golden Retriever club of that country after 1 year of age. Examinations must be done within 12 months of a breeding..
c. Hearts – appropriate *report* from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Medicine, Cardiology Specialty or a certification by the Orthopedic
Foundation for Animals by a cardiologist (the number will be followed by a C) at 12 months of age or older.>>


Whiskeycreek's website could be a bit more complete with listing links to k9data & OFA on her dogs but overall, I don't find her website misleading. She gives dates of last eye clearances and dates of heart clearances. Perhaps if she scanned the REPORTS and included those eye & heart reports - others would feel better about her breeding practices?


(The original poster asked about the litter out of Maggie - I cannot find Maggie listed on her website but did check the Teran's Sire and his hips & elbows are listed on OFA.)


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Pointgold has a point.......CERF is a registry. If an AVCO diplomate has issued a report, that IS acceptable. Whether the owner chooses to send the appropriate fees into CERF and register their dog in the database - well, that is up to each owner. If the AVCO diplomate's name and date of the exam is listed with the findings being normal - that should be acceptable. Listing the dog as CERF -normal , well - honestly that isn't correct because you never mailed in the report to CERF so you can't claim CERF- normal.


Taken from the CERF website:
<<Dedicated to the elimination of heritable eye disease 
in purebred dogs through registration and research.
WHAT IS CERF?

The Canine Eye Registration Foundation (CERF) is an organization that was founded by a group of concerned, purebred owner/breeders who recognized that the quality of their dog's lives were being affected by heritable eye disease. CERF was then established in conjunction with cooperating, board certified, veterinary ophthalmologists, as a means to accomplish the goal of elimination of heritable eye disease in all purebred dogs by forming a centralized, national registry.

The CERF Registry not only registers those dog's certified free of heritable eye disease by members of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmologists (A.C.V.O. ), but also collects data on all dogs examined by A.C.V.O. Diplomates. This data is used to form the CERF data base which is useful in researching trends in eye disease and breed susceptibility. Not only is this data useful to clinicians and students of ophthalmology, but to interested breed clubs and individual breeders and owners of specific breeds.

HOW DOES CERF WORK?

After the painless examination of the dogs eyes, the A.C.V.O. Diplomate will complete the CERF form and indicate any specific disease(s) found. Breeding advice will be offered based on guidelines established for that particular breed by the genetics Committee of the A.C.V.O. Bear in mind that CERF and the A.C.V.O. are separate, but cooperating entities. The A.C.V.O only provides their professional services and expertise to ensure that uniform standards are upheld for the certification of dog's eyes with the CERF organization.

If the dog is certified to be free of heritable eye disease, you can then send in the completed owner's copy of the CERF form with the appropriate fee ($12.00 for the original CERF Registration, or $8.00 if it is a recertification or kennel rate). Hybrid Registration is $15.00 per dog. Re-CERF or kennel rate (10 or more new) is $12.00 per dog. CERF has adopted a policy effective Jan. 1st, 2001 (by post mark) that a permanent identification in the form of microchip, tattoo or DNA profile will be needed for any dog to be registered with CERF. The certification is good for 12 months from the date of the exam and afterwards the dog must be reexamined and recertified to maintain its' registration with CERF.

Regardless of the outcome of the dog's exam, the research copy of the CERF form will be sent to the CERF office at V.M.D.B (Veterinary Medical Database) where its information will be entered into the database for that specific breed. This information will be used in generating research reports, but the individual dog's identities will become confidential and will never be released.

WHAT CAN CERF DO FOR ME?

- Provide a registry of purebred dogs that have been certified free of heritable eye disease.

- Provide various memberships which include the CERF Newsletter, and various registration and research reports to keep you up-to-date on various topics in canine ophthalmology.

- Provide various reports on the prevalence of eye diseases in certain breeds, including reports generated by the Veterinary Medical Data Base (V.M.D.B.) which compiles data from 24 participating veterinary colleges in the U.S. and Canada.

- Provide a centralized source to answer questions like: - "Is there an A.C.V.O. Diplomate located near me?" -"Are there any published materials on eye disease in dogs that can help me to better understand my dog's condition?"

If you are interested in learning more about the CERF organization, the CERF process, or would like to inquire about the CERF status of a prospective mate for your dog, please don't hesitate to call or write. We'd love to assist you!




Contact Information.




VMDB/CERF Home>>


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Same goes for the heart clearances. An application for congenital cardiac database is what is filled out and again, OFA is a database. If you do not send the application into OFA, then your dog is not OFA clear unless you have a OFA number. You can have a report and a copy provided:

http://www.offa.org/cardappbw.pdf


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

You are correct many breeders do not send in CERF and SAS certifications not that they have anything to hide. 

Maggie is no longer in our breeding program as she is over breeding age and has been spayed and retired.

It is really no ones business other than puppy buyers as to what my dogs clearances are. though I have to say I never breed with less that an OFA good or Excellent and clear eyes heart as well as a penn-hip (this is new for me). I can prove that all of my dogs have had the proper tests before breeding. That is all that matters. 

I continue to do testing on my retired dogs unless they have been placed in pet homes.

That is all I have to say on this subject. I know that I have beautiful dogs that can walk into a show ring and place in the top 4 in their class. I am a good breeder that does all the right things, I have a great reputation in my area.

It was an educational day. Up until now, I had never seen posters so convinced that their way was the only way. 
:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:i:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:


----------



## Pointgold

It's not about any one person's way being the only way. Not at all. It is about accuracy in the claims made on a web site. Period. Also defending and upholding what the GRCA requires when one claims membership and that they subscribe to the COE. And when important pieces are omitted, questions can, and should, be raised. Very few breeders do not submit all their clearance information anymore. It is inexpensive to do so. And why wouldn't you?

While you state that it is no one's business other than puppy buyers as to what clearances you have, when a potential buy asks all the right questions (here or elsewhere) when they come across a site such as yours, you do yourself no favors by not putting all your information out there, if you have "nothing to hide". As stated, it raises questions. When you claim "CERF-normal" and your dogs are not listed in the CERF database, it doesn't look good. Ditto not seeing cardiac clearances on OFA - one assumes that when a site claims SAS clear they have done so. Too many HVB's and BYB's talk the talk now, and it behooves honest reputable breeders to go the extra mile.

People have to know that when they put themselves out there on a website, they _are _making it the public's business...


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

So in your opinion, it is better to list nothing on a website, then to tell the truth and provide copies to new puppy buyers (after they have seen the originals of course)?

If you are the same point gold kennels with both German short hair pointers and goldens. I can see why you would say that. You give absolutely no information on your dogs. That is more suspicious to me then listing the information even if I choose not to send the info the OFA.

The fact is All of my dogs are tested at the proper age and with eyes every 12 months there after and well into retirement. They are tested OFA hips elbows, penn hip, by a board certified cardiologyst and ophthalmologist. 

I have nothing to hide. I may put copies on my web site. As I do agree it is impotent information.


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> So in your opinion, it is better to list nothing on a website, then to tell the truth and provide copies to new puppy buyers (after they have seen the originals of course)?
> 
> If you are the same point gold kennels with both German short hair pointers and goldens. I can see why you would say that. You give absolutely no information on your dogs. That is more suspicious to me then listing the information even if I choose not to send the info the OFA.
> 
> The fact is All of my dogs are tested at the proper age and with eyes every 12 months there after and well into retirement. They are tested OFA hips elbows, penn hip, by a board certified cardiologyst and ophthalmologist.
> 
> I have nothing to hide. I may put copies on my web site. As I do agree it is impotent information.


No, that kennel is in Australia. I've used the screen name since the early 90's, before they even started breeding. 
My point is that unless you do have CERF numbers, or OFA cardiac numbers, you cannot put on a website that the dog is CERF - normal. Stating SAS normal causes one to assume that it is listed on OFA's database, so it would be more accurate to post "Cardiac checks normal per Board Certified Cardiologist". Again, I ask why NOT send them to OFA??? Why NOT have the information available and in one place?


----------



## Pointgold

I see that the Whiskey Creek website has been updated. It now reads ACVOCERF... CERF, unless the reports have been sent to them, and the dog PASSED by them, is still not accurate. :no: 
A breeder can have an ACVO (American College of Veterinary Ophthalmologists) vet do an exam. That examination form can be sent to CERF, and for the 1st certification fee of $12.00 (7.00 for re-certs) they will either clear and assign a CERF number, or not. (any number of things will prevent CERF from assigning a number. The point, again, is that _unless the exam form is sent to CERF, the dog is NOT CERF Clear. _And as such, using "CERF" on a website advertising dogs is inaccurate.

I still would really like to know why a breeder would not go the extra mile for a CERF number, or, an OFA Cardiac number. These are breeders who claim to do EVERYTHING for their dogs, etc etc... the cost is so minimal, I just don't get it.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Whiskey creek goldens~

Is this one of your breedings?:

http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=386820

Just asking......was checking dogs entered on K9data which is a public website as well.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Whiskey Creek I think what you may be missing is what started this discussion. Someone who is NOT all that familiar with what makes a "responsible breeder" comes here and asks about a breeder website. Some of the more knowledgeable members check out the website and see that it states certain things (GRCA COE). When they try to verify these things they can not because they are not TOTALLY accurate (CERF). So the members report this to the person inquiring. So if you are going to offer information for education purposes then make that clear and then state what methods you use. I do not think you are doing any thing wrong, you have the right to do it the way you are. But just state that and do not claim to abide by the GRCA COE if you are not truly following it.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

To answer pointgolds question it is a free country and I can or cannot do what I wish or am I wrong. I know of several reputable breeder in Oregon and Washington that have chosen not to send in Cerf and SAS testing on dogs. Many of them are very well known and respected. I would love the opportunity to pick your website apart. The public can find the information you need at k9data for free. 

Yes Isa is one of my field puppies she about 4 month old. You probably want to know why she is not on my site. She belongs to my grown son. I will however be adding her at some point if i choose to showor do field work with her.:uhoh:


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> To answer pointgolds question it is a free country and I can or cannot do what I wish or am I wrong. I know of several reputable breeder in Oregon and Washington that have chosen not to send in Cerf and SAS testing on dogs. Many of them are very well known and respected. I would love the opportunity to pick your website apart. The public can find the information you need at k9data for free.
> 
> Yes Isa is one of my field puppies she about 4 month old. You probably want to know why she is not on my site. She belongs to my grown son. I will however be adding her at some point if i choose to showor do field work with her.:uhoh:


 

Geeze. I am trying to understand WHY anyone would not want to. That's all. I'd love to know the reasoning behind that choice. And honestly, it is not the "norm" for respected breeders not to send in CERF/cardiac reports.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

I do abide by the GRCA code of ethics here is a copy to refresh everyone's memory please please tel me where dose it say you have to mail then in for them to count as a clearance. 

GRCA members are expected to follow AKC requirements for record keeping, identification of animals, and registration procedures. Animals selected for breeding should:​ ​ (i) be of temperament typical of the Golden Retriever breed; stable, friendly, trainable, and willing to work. Temperament is of utmost importance to the breed and must never be neglected;​ (ii) be in good health, including freedom from communicable disease;​ (iii) possess the following examination reports in order to verify status concerning possible hip dysplasia, hereditary eye or cardiovascular disease, and elbow dysplasia:​ ​ a. Hips – for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals; or PennHIP at 24 months of age or older. For dogs outside the U.S., report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country (e.g. Canada - Ontario Veterinary College; Great Britain - BVA/KC Hip Score) A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.​ b. Eyes – _*appropriate report from*_ a _*Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) *_or from a BVA/KC approved ophthalmologist (Great Britain), or a report from the Canine Eye Registry Foundation. For dogs outside the U.S., a report from an ophthalmologist as recommended by the Golden Retriever club of that country after 1 year of age. Examinations must be done within 12 months of a breeding.​ c. Hearts – _*appropriate report from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Medicine, Cardiology Specialty*_ or a certification by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals by a cardiologist (the number will be followed by a C) at 12 months of age or older.​ d. Elbows – for U.S. dogs, a report from Orthopedic Foundation for Animals at 24 months of age or older. For dogs outside the U.S., report from a health registry approved by the Golden Retriever club of that country at 24 months of age or older. A report from the accepted health registry of another country may be used for U.S. dogs that are 24 months of age or older when x-rayed.​ Breeders of Goldens in the U.S. who use health registries from other countries should fully reveal their reasons for doing so. Consideration should be given also to other disorders that may have a genetic component, including, but not limited to, epilepsy, hypothyroidism, skin disorders (allergies), and orthopedic disorders such as osteochondritis.​ (iv) Assuming all health and examination reports are favorable, the age of the breeding pair also is of consideration. Generally, a Golden Retriever is not physically and mentally mature until the age of 2 years; an individual dog’s suitability as a breeding animal is difficult to assess until that time.​ * Adopted: April 20, 1997, by GRCA Board of Directors.(Rev. 5-01, 2-08)*


*I have gone in and changed the wording on my website as i do agree that is was not quite right. Please go see and let is go. I have my way you have yours. 
*​


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

To finally answer the question which really is none of you business by the way. My husband has been out of work for three years. We are just making ends meet. The care and welfare of the dogs is the most important thing. A testing registry is not on the priority list. so there you have it in a nut shell.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

You ahve all had an oppertunity to pick me apart and ask me questions in complete anonymity now who are you and what is your website address.


----------



## Pointgold

I am sorry that your husband is out of work. That is tough, to be sure. 
You are, though, missing the point. As has been stated, by myself and Ambika, among others, it's simply about accuracy. Your dogs are not CERF cleared. They _are_ ACVO examined, (which is great), and your website should reflect that - not CERF. And while your financial situation is your own personal business, I would ask if you were NOT "just making ends meet", would it still be your choice not to do the CERF/OFA cardiac registries? That is my question - why would any breeder _choose _not to?


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Yes of course I would have sent them in. I plan on doing it with the proceeds from our current litter.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Please note that this is a very young Breeding program. I have been letting go of my field dogs and replacing them with show prospects for the last three years.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

I just hate that people always jump and believe the worst in other people. If I have a question I go directly to the person and ask for my self.


----------



## Jo Ellen

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I just hate that people always jump and believe the worst in other people.


Me too. This forum is awesome in so many respects but if I were a breeder, I would be filled with trepidation to come here. The undertones are disheartening ... though I do understand the desire to protect breed standards. It just feels like a very unfriendly environment to me sometimes.


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I just hate that people always jump and believe the worst in other people. If I have a question I go directly to the person and ask for my self.


This has been a very civil discussion, IMO. I've certainly not jumped to any conclusions - I've been direct in asking you the questions that I have.


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Yes of course I would have sent them in. I plan on doing it with the proceeds from our current litter.


Thank you. Do you hae any idea why those who you referred to as highly respected breeders in your area who don't send them in have chosen not to? I really am trying to understand the thinking behind that... *Note that I am NOT asking who, etc. I just want to understand the reasons.


----------



## MillysMom

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I just hate that people always jump and believe the worst in other people. If I have a question I go directly to the person and ask for my self.


A lot of times a person looking for a reputable breeder, especially if that person is new to Golden Retrievers, will get very confused with the way in which a breeder may answer their questions. I know when I first started looking for a breeder 3 years ago, I barked up a lot of wrong trees, and those breeders gave me information that lead me, as a total novice, to believe they were reputable breeders. I now know they weren't, and a lot of what I've learned has been thanks to this forum.

There is nothing wrong with the OP posting to see if the more knowledgeable members saw any red flags on your website. If the OP felt confident in all of their breeder knowledge they probably wouldn't have posted, but I, even with 3 years of searching for a breeder and devouring everything I possibly can about the breed, still do not feel I can accurately assess all dogs to know what is right and wrong. 

A lot of people on this forum have learned who are good and who are bad breeders, and then their recommendations of good breeders have generated a lot of repeat puppy buyers, and word-of-mouth customers.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

Pointgold said:


> This has been a very civil discussion, IMO. I've certainly not jumped to any conclusions - I've been direct in asking you the questions that I have.


In reading through this thread, I agree with PG. An inaccuracy was pointed out on the website....that's it. The owner of the site chimed in so questions were asked regarding representations made on the site. I don't think anyone assumed the worst, although, I have to say that puppy buyers (who are the target audience of the site) would certainly be skeptical of misleading information regarding clearances. I think a breeder is much better served to be honest and upfront on their site so that there is no reason to doubt the rest of the information.

whiskeycreek, I think you should be happy that this discussion happened. If anything it allowed you to learn something and clarify the info on your site. That's a good thing!


----------



## AmbikaGR

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I just hate that people always jump and believe the worst in other people. If I have a question I go directly to the person and ask for my self.


Again I do not think that occurred here. You may have come here feeling you needed to defend yourself and practices but no one asked that of you. In response to the original post in this thread some members replied with their opinions and reasons for those opinions. 
If you were to go through the threads on this forum where similar questions have been asked by folks you would be horrified to see what some breeders are doing. There are SO many websites out there with all the bells and whistles and "talking the talk" but do not "walk the walk" when it comes to their own breeding programs. 
In my opinion this has been a very civil and up front discussion that I think ALL have learned from.



Jo Ellen said:


> Me too. This forum is awesome in so many respects but if I were a breeder, I would be filled with trepidation to come here. The undertones are disheartening ... though I do understand the desire to protect breed standards. It just feels like a very unfriendly environment to me sometimes.


And I disagree TOTALLY with this sentiment. It is these types oof discussion threads that truly make this forum AWESOME!!! All the fun and fluff threads are wonderful but this is when we get to educate each other and hopefully understand what we need to do for the betterment of the breed.


----------



## AlanK

AmbikaGR said:


> And I disagree TOTALLY with this sentiment. It is these types oof discussion threads that truly make this forum AWESOME!!! All the fun and fluff threads are wonderful but this is when we get to educate each other and hopefully understand what we need to do for the betterment of the breed.



Well said Hank. And very true.


----------



## Jo Ellen

AmbikaGR said:


> And I disagree TOTALLY with this sentiment. It is these types oof discussion threads that truly make this forum AWESOME!!! All the fun and fluff threads are wonderful but this is when we get to educate each other and hopefully understand what we need to do for the betterment of the breed.


I would totally agree with you if I didn't so often see a readiness to pounce. I'm just sharing my feelings. I agree with you that the value of this forum is not all in the fun and fluff, there's room and need for seriousness, as well.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

I was not implying that you jumped to that conclusion it was a general statement I was making I am sorry if it Sounded that way. i agree this has been a very civil discussion.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> Thank you. Do you hae any idea why those who you referred to as highly respected breeders in your area who don't send them in have chosen not to? I really am trying to understand the thinking behind that... *Note that I am NOT asking who, etc. I just want to understand the reasons.



I think it is because of k9data it is free and you can list all of your testing. Lets be honest in this economy its nice to save a buck. That is why have not done it yet as stated before.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

goldenjackpuppy said:


> In reading through this thread, I agree with PG. An inaccuracy was pointed out on the website....that's it. The owner of the site chimed in so questions were asked regarding representations made on the site. I don't think anyone assumed the worst, although, I have to say that puppy buyers (who are the target audience of the site) would certainly be skeptical of misleading information regarding clearances. I think a breeder is much better served to be honest and upfront on their site so that there is no reason to doubt the rest of the information.
> 
> I think you should be happy that this discussion happened. If anything it allowed you to learn something and clarify the info on your site. That's a good thing!



I don't know if I agree or disagree with you, but I did go and change some wording to make it more people friendly, So that is a good thing. I was never dishonest I simply used the wrong wording.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I was not implying that you jumped to that conclusion it was a general statement I was making I am sorry if it Sounded that way. i agree this has been a very civil discussion.


I would recommend that you stick around on this site. As a new person to conformation with my first show dog, I've learned a TON about showing, breeding, the breed standard, clearances, ethics, etc etc etc etc (I could go one forever!) on here. It's a wealth of information if you take advantage of it.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I don't know if I agree or disagree with you, but I did go and change some wording to make it more people friendly, So that is a good thing. I was never dishonest I simply used the wrong wording.


That's why I said "clarify," "misleading" and "inaccuracy".


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That's why I said "clarify," "misleading" and "inaccuracy".


By using those two words some night take that as the person is lying when in fast they are not. As in the case of Maggie taking her class at a dog show. The fact is she did win that class it is not my fault that no one else was in it. non the less she won the class so the statement was true. those two words can be taken very differently by different people. all that really needed to be said was to make sure that you see the up to date testing results as was stated by another poster.


----------



## AlanK

OK lighten up some and smile...Tuff was first place in the 3 legged contest...and was the only one entered









OK Im really bored and having a bad week myself....thought I would try for some humor:curtain::doh:


----------



## CarolinaCasey

Whiskey, I think that you're a reputable breeder and are doing the right things. You're doing OFA hips and elbows and you've had your dogs hearts and eyes cleared. When you have the money, send them in to OFA. 

I'd much rather see someone like yourself getting the screenings done than simply not doing them because of monetary issues. The only wrong doing that you've done is say that the dog was CERF cleared when you haven't yet been issued a CERF number. Those things are all able to be changed once you send in the screenings. I agree that perhaps only the following sentence was needed, "Make sure that you see in person the up to date CERF and heart clearances since they're not on OFA."

I also hope that you stick around. We all have something to learn from one another. 

To the OP, I think you've found a good kennel with some nice dogs (Marley! So handsome!). Take a visit, meet them, ask questions, make a decision!  Good luck.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Thanks Melissa, Ya Marley is a beautiful boy with tones of coat he floats in the ring. I do not show him any more as he is just shy of 25 inches and stands out. What a personality he makes me laugh all the time. Take a look at Toga he is young but WOW he moves in a show ring like no other. 

Then there is Mia she is the first of my breeding that I am Really Really looking forward to getting out in the show ring. Not that Madison, Piage, and Willa chopped liver. There is just something about her that makes people go wow. 

Her 1/2 sister Fate owned by Debby Berry (sunshine goldens) took two majors on the Montana run last month. I can only hope that Mia is as nice.


once again thank for the support


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I think it is because of k9data it is free and you can list all of your testing. Lets be honest in this economy its nice to save a buck. That is why have not done it yet as stated before.


I disagree. Saving a buck is nice, yes, but I will not cut corners when it comes to the health of my dogs and this breed. And not having clearances certified is, to my way of thinking, cutting corners. K9 Data is not someplace that you can put all the information necessary if you are not getting numbers. You cannot put in all the text required to adequately explain it. Further, while it is, technically "free", most users do donate to help maintain the database. Sorry to sound harsh, but if you cannot afford iit, maybe you should consider cutting back on the number of dogs you have... I certainly would rather than cut any corners. And as showing is not inexpensive, when dealing with less disposable income, it is something that I would surely cut back on. I don't know about the International shows that you participate in, but AKC shows, travel, etc, are very expensive. I say this respectfully, as I do not take financial hardships lightly.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> I disagree. Saving a buck is nice, yes, but I will not cut corners when it comes to the health of my dogs and this breed. And not having clearances certified is, to my way of thinking, cutting corners. K9 Data is not someplace that you can put all the information necessary if you are not getting numbers. You cannot put in all the text required to adequately explain it. Further, while it is, technically "free", most users do donate to help maintain the database. Sorry to sound harsh, but if you cannot afford iit, maybe you should consider cutting back on the number of dogs you have... I certainly would rather than cut any corners. And as showing is not inexpensive, when dealing with less disposable income, it is something that I would surely cut back on. I don't know about the International shows that you participate in, but AKC shows, travel, etc, are very expensive. I say this respectfully, as I do not take financial hardships lightly.



That is your prerogative send your clearances in to OFA. I am not cutting corners nither are the other breeders I spoke of earleyer. WE HAVE THE REPORTS THAT GRCA REQUIERS. Were I live you can get to an AKC show everyother weekend if you want there is minimal travel.

You have your ways I have mine. I am happy in knowing I do the very best for my dogs, the puppies I produce, and for the people who I choose to home them with. I have a waiting lists for my puppies most people find me through word of mouth as they have see and talked to others that own my puppies.


----------



## Pointgold

It's somewhat contradictory - you said the only reason you haven't sent in your reports is due to financial reasons - "to save a buck". And that you _are _going to now and use profits from your current litter. I am honestly not being disrespectful here, but really am trying to get a handle on all of this (and you just happen to be here to ask - lucky you ...) If you don't think that you really _need _them and that you are not cutting corners, then why would you get them at all? 
The reason for getting them is to have a rating from the specialists with the registering organization, and also to have them in a central repository as it were. Is that not a great thing?

Having a waiting list for all of your puppies is great - but on your site you offer puppies from your new litter as being available.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

"If you don't think that you really _need _them and that you are not cutting corners, then why would you get them at all? 
The reason for getting them is to have a rating from the specialists with the registering organization, and also to have them in a central repository as it were. Is that not a great thing?

Having a waiting list for all of your puppies is great - but on your site you offer puppies from your new litter as being available."

I agree that it is vital to get ALL testing done!! I would not breed without them. What I don't agree with is that you seem to think that you have to send them into the registry for them to be valid. They are still reports from board certified veterinarian specializing in ophthalmology and cardiology. I have the forms to send in if I so Choose. In the past I have done so and will again. I do however know may breeders that choose not to and simply offer copies of the tests to puppy buyers.

I do have a waiting list for every litter I breed however I only keep 5 people on each list there for as in my current litter I have a couple puppies to place. The reason for this is you may only have 5-6 in a litter, I may want to keep one or two to see how they turn out for show, people my back out for some reason. I never want to have to tell someone what I don't have the puppy they are looking for in a specific litter.

Earlier this year I had a litter on the way out of one of my best bitched bred to an up and coming boy. I took the bitch in for ultrasound we saw ten healthy puppies so I offered ten puppies to ten people on my list. Only to have her deliver her puppies almost a week early. In one horn the placenta detached killing all of the puppies in that horn. She had to have a C-section the good thing is that the other 5 puppies were beautiful and healthy. The bad thing is that I had to let 5 people down I hate doing that. 

All of the puppies from that litter went to show homes. Do you think that show people would by a puppy if all the testing was no on the up & up?? Probably not.


----------



## Ljilly28

whiskey creek goldens said:


> All of the puppies from that litter went to show homes. Do you think that show people would by a puppy if all the testing was no on the up & up?? Probably not.


Even in a breeding between the top AM CH goldens in the country, it's not that likely that all the pups would be show pups. I am curious about this litter. Who were the parents and who evaluated/ placed the pups? I am trying to learn about breeding.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Ljilly28 said:


> Even in a breeding between the top AM CH goldens in the country, it's not that likely that all the pups would be show pups. I am curious about this litter. Who were the parents and who evaluated/ placed the pups? I am trying to learn about breeding.



I do not have time for a long explanation as I have to go to a meeting in my county as our commissioners are trying to ban Kennels in RR2 and RRr5 zones that is something we should be talking about.

the short answer is Pat Hastings evaluated the litter.


----------



## Ljilly28

Pat Hasting evaluated your litter and said all five were show prospects?


----------



## Pointgold

Ljilly28 said:


> Pat Hasting evaluated your litter and said all five were show prospects?


I can't afford to have Pat Hasting's evaluate my litters.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

let me see yes, I also had three other people look at them that are in our golden club. you also have to remember that I lost 5 puppies out of that litter


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

The nice thing about Pat is she only lives a couple of miles away therefor it only costs me about $65.00.


----------



## Pointgold

How extraordinarily fortunate that the 5 that survived were all the show prospects. 

And that you can get Pat Hastings so inexpensively. That certainly helps when you are having financial problems.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> How extraordinarily fortunate that the 5 that survived were all the show prospects.
> 
> And that you can get Pat Hastings so inexpensively. That certainly helps when you are having financial problems.



We in the pacific north west are very fortunate. We have lost of show, excellent quality of animals and of course Pat. all in a 39 -40 mile radius.

Where do you live that you could not afford Pat?


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

So you must get more for a show prospect then a pet quality pup? How fortunate that all 5 were considered show quality by Pat Hastings and that you actually had show homes lined up! Is this the Kolby X Madison litter? Has Kolby finished yet? I do like his pedigree! What about the other 4 pups? They should all be hitting the rings this fall! I didn't find them listed as offspring on K9data. Did see your Mia entered. She looks awfully nice on your website! Good luck with her.

Looks like you just had another litter yesterday.....hope all is well with them!


----------



## Mssjnnfer

Wasn't it like $12 to list the CERF or something? But you thought that was a waste of money... or something?

:gotme:


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

P.S That was an exceptional breeding.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> So you must get more for a show prospect then a pet quality pup? How fortunate that all 5 were considered show quality by Pat Hastings and that you actually had show homes lined up! Is this the Kolby X Madison litter? Has Kolby finished yet? I do like his pedigree! What about the other 4 pups? They should all be hitting the rings this fall! I didn't find them listed as offspring on K9data. Did see your Mia entered. She looks awfully nice on your website! Good luck with her.
> 
> Looks like you just had another litter yesterday.....hope all is well with them!



Yes that was the Madison X Kolby litter, No Susan has not finished him yet thought he is majorly pointed and I think he has almost earned his OS. Susan is vary strategic about the dogs she show to a particular judge. she only takes dogs that a judge will like. her dogs consistently take Winners dog and Winner Bitch.

Yes they should be hitting the ring this fall September I am so exited to see and here how the do as not all of them are local.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> So you must get more for a show prospect then a pet quality pup? How fortunate that all 5 were considered show quality by Pat Hastings and that you actually had show homes lined up! Is this the Kolby X Madison litter? Has Kolby finished yet? I do like his pedigree! What about the other 4 pups? They should all be hitting the rings this fall! I didn't find them listed as offspring on K9data. Did see your Mia entered. She looks awfully nice on your website! Good luck with her.
> 
> Looks like you just had another litter yesterday.....hope all is well with them!



Not necessarily on show prospect boys I will keep stud rights and on girl I will get a puppy back. The up front cost of the puppy is the same for pet and show.

The puppies and mamma are doing great thanks for asking


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Mssjnnfer said:


> Wasn't it like $12 to list the CERF or something? But you thought that was a waste of money... or something?
> 
> :gotme:


I did not say that is was a waist of money to register the tests. I also stated that I will send in the forms when I get a deposit on a puppy and or from the proceeds of my current litter. my test where just done in may for goodness sakes give a girl some time  I also have three more dogs that need to have them done. I said things are tight right now. Pat's evaluations are part of my litter packet as first and for most I breed for myself to better the quality of puppy I produce both in looks and in health. isent that the goal here?


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> We in the pacific north west are very fortunate. We have lost of show, excellent quality of animals and of course Pat. all in a 39 -40 mile radius.
> 
> Where do you live that you could not afford Pat?


I would have to pay for her plane fare and lodging in addition to her evaluation costs. I have a very close friend who is a dear friend of Pat's and has collaborated with her on several of her projects who lives much closer, and have had her come, as well as other respected breeders and feel that, along with my own evals (and I also do temperament/apptitude testing and evaluations for most all of the litters in our area) has been every bit as valuable as the Pat Hastings evals. I am not having multiple litters per year, and do not realize profits from puppy sales.


----------



## Ljilly28

I've seen Pat Hastings talk and watched her video a zillion times. I'm going to email her and ask what magic is in your water that she said every pup was a show pup. You're lucky!


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Ljilly28 said:


> I've seen Pat Hastings talk and watched her video a zillion times. I'm going to email her and ask what magic is in your water that she said every pup was a show pup. You're lucky!



I have had litters that where just crap too, There was one litter that I had a couple of years ago that I think had zero show prospects.:yuck: it was ugly:yuck: 

The thing about Pat is that yes she is a wonderful evaluator. However she only looks at structure, she will tell you right up front "I do not look at heads", and She never watches them move. You can have the Greatest structure and have a puppy with a crappy head or structure that is so so and the puppy has beautiful side movement. I use her evaluations along with others breeders. to pick and choose. 

Pat also uses the word "Show average" allot in her rating system the show average ranges from a 3 to a 5, so in any given litter you could have a puppy that has a 5 in the rear and a 3 in the front and that puppy will still be consider a show prospect. However in my opinion I would not place that puppy in a show home as the front is weak.

I have done allot of studying of her books they are very informational and every one should have them in there library of reference books.


----------



## mybuddy

AlanK said:


> OK lighten up some and smile...Tuff was first place in the 3 legged contest...and was the only one entered
> 
> View attachment 79566
> 
> 
> OK Im really bored and having a bad week myself....thought I would try for some humor:curtain::doh:


 
eye lobe yoo n yoo kan bowrow mi lag ip yoo wunda anityme.


----------



## Jleway

I'm somewhat a novice at breeding. My grandparents had a fair reputation on breeding Schnauzers about 30 or 40 years ago, but I have no breeding experience. I have a question... 
Who is Pat Hastings? I'm just wondering...


----------



## AmbikaGR

Pat Hastings is an author and AKC judge. She along with her husband developed a system of evaluating young pups conformation and predicting which in the litter would be of Champion caliber. Her ability to do so reliably over the years has greatly increased her popularity. She hosted very popular seminars across the US to explain and teach this method, the Puppy Puzzle, in addition to evaluating litters of pups across the continent.


----------



## Jleway

Thank you! That's really something... I bet it took her years to learn about canines and AKC standards to be able to do what she does. Thanks for your answer.


----------



## RBCC

*Yes I have one of her pups*

I would worry what her pups are certified and what they aren't. This costs money, she gives you a history of your pup. When I took my pup to our vet, she looked at the notebook and was quite impressed. 

Our pup, Kydd is a healthy and happy pup and gets along with our cats. She answers all your questions, and addresses your concerns and wants to come and see their new home and loves her Goldens.

She has done everything to breed a puppy that is excellent, she may not have all the money to get all accreditations that you would like to see but she absolutely loves her Golden. 

Check them out, ask here about anything.

John Marshall
Madras, OR:wavey:


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

I wanted to know if there is any way to get this thread deleted. It has come to my attention that some people are under the impression that I am a BYB and or an unethical breeder because of some of the things said on the forum. 

It has hurt my reputation and my breeding program, as I have contacted a couple of other breeder recently to use their stud dog. They have refused and mentions this forum when declining. 

All of my dogs have always had all of their testing done and kept up to date they now also have Chic cards. 

Please let me know if there is anything that can be done:

thanks a lot PointGold


----------



## tippykayak

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I wanted to know if there is any way to get this thread deleted. It has come to my attention that some people are under the impression that I am a BYB and or an unethical breeder because of some of the things said on the forum.
> 
> It has hurt my reputation and my breeding program, as I have contacted a couple of other breeder recently to use their stud dog. They have refused and mentions this forum when declining.
> 
> All of my dogs have always had all of their testing done and kept up to date they now also have Chic cards.
> 
> Please let me know if there is anything that can be done:
> 
> thanks a lot PointGold


I'm not an admin, so I can't delete the thread, but was there anything false said? And did whoever said it continue to maintain it even after you showed them that it was false?


----------



## Kmullen

I can see how she would be upset. A novice puppy buyer trying to research about this breeder and this forum pops up. All they see is that she is not turning in the eye reports. That is all it takes and the potential puppy buyer is gone. Even though she did have them done! Yes, I agree that they should have been sent it. But, she obviously is not a BYB and is trying and I think doing a great job!!! 9 pages on her not turning in eye cerfs...is a bit overwhelming for a potential puppy buyer and so they will just walk away!


----------



## AmbikaGR

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I wanted to know if there is any way to get this thread deleted. It has come to my attention that some people are under the impression that I am a BYB and or an unethical breeder because of some of the things said on the forum.
> 
> It has hurt my reputation and my breeding program, as I have contacted a couple of other breeder recently to use their stud dog. They have refused and mentions this forum when declining.
> 
> All of my dogs have always had all of their testing done and kept up to date they now also have Chic cards.
> 
> Please let me know if there is anything that can be done:
> 
> thanks a lot PointGold



Personally I do not think the thread should be deleted as there is nothing in it that is not accurate. And as it appears that you are as of April submitting all your heart and eye clearances I find it ridiculous that any responsible breeder decline you any stud service based on this thread.


----------



## Kmullen

AmbikaGR said:


> Personally I do not think the thread should be deleted as there is nothing in it that is not accurate. And as it appears that you are as of April submitting all your heart and eye clearances I find it ridiculous that any responsible breeder decline you any stud service based on this thread.


 
I think it is ridiculous too that any breeder would decline you! Did they read the thread?? It is not even that bad!! Their loss!!


----------



## vcm5

At the same time, I can really understand how frustrating it might be to feel like you are working hard to do everything you can and people are denying you without knowing all the facts. Could you perhaps encourage them to read the whole thread? I went back and read it and was really impressed at how well you handled the criticism at the end, I know it can be harsh to have your business under scrutiny like that. And it is very clear that you are doing your best and are very reputable. In some ways if I was another breeder and I read this thread it would speak to your personality and heart that you were willing to take criticism and improve your program. I'm sorry it is not working out for you that way.


----------



## vcm5

I mean you are still here, making polite requests and have clearly righted any issue anyone may have had. That's a far cry from being nasty, confrontational, and even threatening to sue people for disagreeing with your way of doing things - something I know we've seen! I really hope things work out and that you are not too discouraged. Honestly if they weren't willing to do business with you because of this, it is almost their loss!

How are things going?


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

I wanted to know if there is any way to get this thread deleted. It has come to my attention that some people are under the impression that I am a BYB and or an unethical breeder because of some of the things said on the forum. 

It has hurt my reputation and my breeding program, as I have contacted a couple of other breeder recently to use their stud dog. They have refused and mentions this forum when declining. 

All of my dogs have always had all of their testing done and kept up to date they now also have Chic cards. 

Please let me know if there is anything that can be done:

thanks a lot PointGold


----------



## mylissyk

You need to email the board adminstrator to make your request.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

vcm5 said:


> I mean you are still here, making polite requests and have clearly righted any issue anyone may have had. That's a far cry from being nasty, confrontational, and even threatening to sue people for disagreeing with your way of doing things - something I know we've seen! I really hope things work out and that you are not too discouraged. Honestly if they weren't willing to do business with you because of this, it is almost their loss!
> 
> How are things going?


Things are going great My puppy bitch Mia just took WB BOW Breed today for a 5 point major.

happy happy day


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

she just took a group 3 whooooooo!!!


----------



## vcm5

Great!! I'm glad things are going well for you. Congrats!! Hopefully people look at your accomplishments more than a conversation from years ago in a forum when deciding whether to work with you! It sounds like things are going really well!


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

AmbikaGR said:


> Personally I do not think the thread should be deleted as there is nothing in it that is not accurate. And as it appears that you are as of April submitting all your heart and eye clearances I find it ridiculous that any responsible breeder decline you any stud service based on this thread.



You are not quite accurate at some point in the thread it also implies that I did not do OFA hips and elbows as well. Which is 100% wrong and inaccurate. The fact is I not only do OFA hips and elbows, I also do PennHip. I feel it gives a more accurate picture of the hip both structurally and muscularly.

It also dose not mention that IMO you should not breed anything lower than an OFA Good/Excellent that is my personal code. It also dose not mention that I have never in my almost 18 years in this breed produced 1 cancer or 1 dysplastic dog. 

All you get to read in this thread is how I did not send in to be recorded by cerf and OFA my heart and eye reports which is a suggestion by GRCA not a demand. As long as I could provide copies first the originals and then a copy to all puppy buyers that should have been fine.

I was bullied into sending them in and that is not right. Because I did nothing wrong except use the wrong wording on my website. 

For the new person looking for a reputable breeder stumbling across the forum they have no idea what all the jargon means all they see is 9 pages on how I did not do something, that someone else thought I should.

If you do a google search on my kennel name this forum and this thread are one of the first things to come up so yes it is hurting me in both puppy placement and with other breeders and yes I am upset about it wouldn't you? :doh:


----------



## GoldenSail

I think this thread should be deleted. I almost wonder if it could be considered libel. From what I have seen Whiskey Creek Goldens has nice dogs and is committed to the breed. She has a beautiful little bitch, has been active on the forum and the sport, and does do her clearances. 

Nothing says you have to turn in your clearances so they are posted online. Do I think it is a good idea? Absolutely! But the same goes for other things. Does GRCA say you can't breed a dog under two on prelims? No. In fact, it has been discussed on this forum as the COE being a guideline only. I don't like that either.


----------



## AmberSunrise

GoldenSail said:


> I think this thread should be deleted. I almost wonder if it could be considered libel. From what I have seen Whiskey Creek Goldens has nice dogs and is committed to the breed. She has a beautiful little bitch, has been active on the forum and the sport, and does do her clearances.
> 
> Nothing says you have to turn in your clearances so they are posted online. Do I think it is a good idea? Absolutely! But the same goes for other things. Does GRCA say you can't breed a dog under two on prelims? No. In fact, it has been discussed on this forum as the COE being a guideline only. I don't like that either.


I too believe this thread should be deleted.


----------



## AmbikaGR

GoldenSail said:


> I almost wonder if it could be considered libel. From what I have seen Whiskey Creek Goldens has nice dogs and is committed to the breed. She has a beautiful little bitch, has been active on the forum and the sport, and does do her clearances.


There is nothing in this that is even close to libel. 



GoldenSail said:


> Nothing says you have to turn in your clearances so they are posted online. Do I think it is a good idea? Absolutely! But the same goes for other things. Does GRCA say you can't breed a dog under two on prelims? No. In fact, it has been discussed on this forum as the COE being a guideline only. I don't like that either.


The issue that was raised and questioned and debated in this thread was really quite simple.
The breeder stated her breeding dogs were "CERF Clear" but none of them were listed on the CERF database. For a dog to be "CERF Clear" it has to be submitted to CERF. The breeder stated she had taken her dogs to be checked by ophthalmologists but did not send in the reports. Thus they were not "CERF Clear". It was really that simple. The breeder later adjusted her website to reflect this and then in April did have her dogs examined and the reports sent into CERF. 

You are correct at this time that the GRCA COE does not state the eye clearance must be sent into CERF. But there is a resolution pending that would reword the COE stating it is highly recommended to do so for the sake of the breed. 

And for the record I do not think this breeder was bullied at all.


----------



## Sophie_Mom

By deleting the thread, no one is being harmed. By leaving it up, someone is/potentially is being harmed. It seems this breeder has very respectfully argued her position. I would agree with her that potential puppy buyers could be confused by this thread. Just my two cents.


----------



## CarolinaCasey

Sophie_Mom said:


> By deleting the thread, no one is being harmed. By leaving it up, someone is/potentially is being harmed. It seems this breeder has very respectfully argued her position. I would agree with her that potential puppy buyers could be confused by this thread. Just my two cents.


I agree with this statement. I feel that the breeders that turn away their stud dogs because of this thread alone are being unreasonable. You can easily look up your dogs on OFA and see current eye and heart clearances in addition to hips/elbows. That is verifiable information! Why take a forum thread over proof?  The GRCA doesn't require heart and eyes to be sent in to OFA, so I don't feel like you should be penalized for it by others. So long as you have the paper certificate! When the GRCA mandates it be on a database, I will be glad to see it, but penalizing you for something that hasn't been formally recommended seems unfair. When we are asked about other kennels, we often say "be sure to see heart/eye clearances" because they don't need to be sent in. Why shouldn't the same be held true and the benefit of the doubt be given to W.C. Goldens?


----------



## tippykayak

whiskey creek goldens said:


> It also dose not mention that I have never in my almost 18 years in this breed produced 1 cancer or 1 dysplastic dog.


I'm sorry, but are you saying that you've bred for 18 years, and none of the dogs you've ever bred has ever had any kind of cancer? How many dogs is that?


----------



## GoldenSail

Ambika go back and read the stuff about Pat Hastings. Seriously unfair and mean, IMO. Yes, she is in Oregon and Pat Hastings lives close to her. No brainer on getting an eval done when you have such a great resource near you! Then people do not believe her statements about that, yet no one has anything to back it up. Some comments come across very mean. The first few posts were civil in fact I wish the thread had ended at post 5 where she came in and clarified that she did in fact do al clearances.

It boggles my mind that it is ok to breed an underage dog because the COE is only a guideline anyway, but in another breath attack a breeder for not submitting eye certs to the online database when that isn't even part of the COE (yet).


----------



## vcm5

Pointgold said:


> Unless read and rated by the panel at OFA, you have nothing more than a radiograph taken by a practioner. It is not a "clearance". And practioners are often incorrect in their assessments of hips and elbows.


This is just one example, but there are a couple posts that insinuate that there are not proper hip/elbow clearances done, which is not the case. I think people were a little confused about what the breeder meant when she said she didn't send in the clearances - I believe she meant eyes and heart, while it was taken to mean that she didn't want to send in hips/elbows. This was never the case, so I can see how it might be confusing to potential puppy purchasers. Especially since she has since improved her program and sent in the information we were discussing, we don't want to give the wrong impression of her. I think that shows great flexibility and willingness. 

I do not however believed she was bullied in any ways. These forums have to be in some part aimed at the betterment of the breed and if this conversation improved he breeding program then it has done its job, but she was not bullied. No one forced her to make these changes, she did them on her own accord, which I applaud her for. I also disagree that there was anything here that should be considered libel - people made comments that were accurate and that they believed were true, they did not aim to hurt anyone, they were just looking out for someone who asked advice.


----------



## AmbikaGR

whiskey creek goldens said:


> You are not quite accurate at some point in the thread it also implies that I did not do OFA hips and elbows as well. Which is 100% wrong and inaccurate. The fact is I not only do OFA hips and elbows, I also do PennHip. I feel it gives a more accurate picture of the hip both structurally and muscularly.






whiskey creek goldens said:


> It also dose not mention that IMO you should not breed anything lower than an OFA Good/Excellent that is my personal code. It also dose not mention that I have never in my almost 18 years in this breed produced 1 cancer or 1 dysplastic dog.


It does now mention this.



whiskey creek goldens said:


> All you get to read in this thread is how I did not send in to be recorded by cerf and OFA my heart and eye reports which is a suggestion by GRCA not a demand. As long as I could provide copies first the originals and then a copy to all puppy buyers that should have been fine.


What was stated was that your website stated your dogs were "CERF Clear" which was not the case as you were not sending in the reports because of financial difficulties. You stated many "responsible" breeders do this, which someone questioned if you knew why they did not. 
Yes the GRCA COE does not demand this but you yourself were putting it out on your website that you did.




whiskey creek goldens said:


> I was bullied into sending them in and that is not right. Because I did nothing wrong except use the wrong wording on my website.


So your comments through out this thread were mis-worded? (I have listed a couple below.) You did not intend on ever sending them in and it had nothing to do with finances being tight?



whiskey creek goldens said:


> Yes of course I would have sent them in. I plan on doing it with the proceeds from our current litter.





whiskey creek goldens said:


> I think it is because of k9data it is free and you can list all of your testing. Lets be honest in this economy its nice to save a buck. That is why have not done it yet as stated before.





whiskey creek goldens said:


> I did not say that is was a waist of money to register the tests. I also stated that I will send in the forms when I get a deposit on a puppy and or from the proceeds of my current litter. my test where just done in may for goodness sakes give a girl some time  I also have three more dogs that need to have them done. I said things are tight right now.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------



whiskey creek goldens said:


> For the new person looking for a reputable breeder stumbling across the forum they have no idea what all the jargon means all they see is 9 pages on how I did not do something, that someone else thought I should.
> 
> If you do a google search on my kennel name this forum and this thread are one of the first things to come up so yes it is hurting me in both puppy placement and with other breeders and yes I am upset about it wouldn't you? :doh:


And I think that is a perfect reason not to delete this thread. It is a perfect teaching tool for a new person to help them understand the nuances and jargon of breeders and what questions they need to ask.


----------



## AmbikaGR

GoldenSail said:


> Ambika go back and read the stuff about Pat Hastings. Seriously unfair and mean, IMO. Yes, she is in Oregon and Pat Hastings lives close to her. No brainer on getting an eval done when you have such a great resource near you! Then people do not believe her statements about that, yet no one has anything to back it up. Some comments come across very mean. The first few posts were civil in fact I wish the thread had ended at post 5 where she came in and clarified that she did in fact do al clearances.
> 
> It boggles my mind that it is ok to breed an underage dog because the COE is only a guideline anyway, but in another breath attack a breeder for not submitting eye certs to the online database when that isn't even part of the COE (yet).



Sorry but show me where on this forum a breeder stated their dog was of age and bred it when in fact that dog was underage. That is what this thread was about, the breeder stated on the website the dogs were all "CERF Clear"' when in fact they were not.
As for the Pat Hastings side thread, I kept quiet but will now ask. The breeder had the $65 for the evaluation but because times were hard she could not afford the $12 to send in the eye report to CERF? In my view the CERF importance far outweighs the luxury of someone evaluating for "show" quality.


----------



## mylissyk

For a total lay person, I think this thread serves a good purpose. A breeder did not report test results, now they do because people on this board questioned them about it. To me that is a positive outcome to this discussion.


----------



## GoldenSail

AmbikaGR said:


> Sorry but show me where on this forum a breeder stated their dog was of age and bred it when in fact that dog was underage. That is what this thread was about, the breeder stated on the website the dogs were all "CERF Clear"' when in fact they were not.
> As for the Pat Hastings side thread, I kept quiet but will now ask. The breeder had the $65 for the evaluation but because times were hard she could not afford the $12 to send in the eye report to CERF? In my view the CERF importance far outweighs the luxury of someone evaluating for "show" quality.


I do not believe she put that specific wording on her website to deceive, I think it was an honest mistake that she corrected when it was pointed out. There is a standard, and she met it. Maybe she didn't meet it the way everyone thinks she should, but she still did it.

Further, my point with the underage dog comment was that it seems hypocritical to me that someone would disparage another for not submitting clearances to the online database when it is not even required per the COE, and even if it were will use the comment that the COE is just a guideline anyway in other threads. The case with breeding underage dogs has come up in other threads, and it is one I remember well.

And who's business is it anyway what she does with her money? She did the proper clearances.


----------



## LibertyME

I don't believe the "CERF clear" statement was intended to be misleading however...less then ethical high-volume and BYB use _the same jargon_. Why on heaven would any breeder _not_ want to distinguish themselves apart from HVB and or BYB?

One would think that having test results in verifiable database would make you MORE likely to be considered by a stud dog owner....not less!


----------



## GoldenSail

I really think it speaks volumes for Whiskey Creek that she was willing to come on to this thread, defend herself when attacked, fix her error (which I think was unintentional), and then remain an active and good member of the forum.


----------



## vcm5

GoldenSail said:


> I really think it speaks volumes for Whiskey Creek that she was willing to come on to this thread, defend herself when attacked, fix her error (which I think was unintentional), and then remain an active and good member of the forum.


I agree completely, especially when you remember how some people have reacted to criticism on this forum!!


----------



## AmbikaGR

GoldenSail said:


> I really think it speaks volumes for Whiskey Creek that she was willing to come on to this thread, defend herself when attacked, fix her error (which I think was unintentional), and then remain an active and good member of the forum.


I do basically agree with this, but still do not see any reason to delete the thread.


----------



## mybuddy

I say give the poor woman a break. Delete the ****** thread.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

I wonder if it would be possible to have the posts not directly related to the CERF issue deleted? I can see how someone not knowing her could read this thread and be a little put off by some of the statements made by members in the replies.


----------



## Tahnee GR

I have to agree with Hank, I just don't like the idea of deleting any thread. Whiskey Creek came on, defended herself, made a few changes to her webpage and I really don't understand why a stud dog owner would turn her down based on this thread. I have known stud dog owners who will seize upon something like this as an excuse, when they don't want to do a breeding for another reason entirely. Not saying this is what happened here, but I have known it to happen.


----------



## tippykayak

I'm generally not in favor of deleting threads, but I do think Whiskey Creek was treated pretty unfairly here and outright bullied by a few posts, especially those that insinuated (intentionally or otherwise) that hip and elbow clearances weren't done. I've pointed out a number of times that GRF sometimes acts like a hit squad when an influential bully comes out on the attack, and I don't think that's right.

So I don't think the thread should be deleted, but I do think that some people owe her an apology for their behavior.


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I wanted to know if there is any way to get this thread deleted. It has come to my attention that some people are under the impression that I am a BYB and or an unethical breeder because of some of the things said on the forum.
> 
> It has hurt my reputation and my breeding program, as I have contacted a couple of other breeder recently to use their stud dog. They have refused and mentions this forum when declining.
> 
> All of my dogs have always had all of their testing done and kept up to date they now also have Chic cards.
> 
> Please let me know if there is anything that can be done:
> 
> thanks a lot PointGold


And what, may I ask, am I being blamed for here?


----------



## Pointgold

You know, if I asked for every thread where I were "attacked" (and that word means little anymore because it is bandied about so freely and any time someone disagrees with anything they are accused of "attacking" the person...) there'd be few threads I didn't.. 
Seriously - this person wasn't "attacked" or "bullied' by any stretch of the imagination. VALID questions were asked, in a civil manner. 
As for my part, I was honestly trying to understand her reasoning for not submitting results, and yes, I feel that unless they are it cannot be claimed that a dog is CERF clear, OFA whatever... Yes, it may be semantics, but those details are huge when it comes to breeding, and "marketing" puppies to the general public.
I don't know Whiskey Creek, don't even know her name. And if it is being suggested that I personally ("Thanks, Pointgold ") had ANYthing to do with breeders in her area not wanting to do business with her that is absolutely FALSE. I will say that some of her own statements and answers to questions posed in this thread (a year ago) might give pause to some, but I completely disagree that anything anyone here - me or anyone else - could be considered the cause. Perhaps it was an easy out for some other concerns breeders in her area had? I don't know. But do NOT blame me or other GRF members. The conversation was filled with good, valid, sincere questions and comments.


----------



## DNL2448

I've read through this thread. Instead of deleting it, can we put some kind of disclaimer at the first post so people will understand that it started off rocky but in the end, the breeder checked out? Just wondering.


----------



## Tahnee GR

DNL2448 said:


> I've read through this thread. Instead of deleting it, can we put some kind of disclaimer at the first post so people will understand that it started off rocky but in the end, the breeder checked out? Just wondering.


I understand where you're coming from with this, but a disclaimer like that could be viewed as an "official" forum approval of a particular breeder. I don't know that we want to do that either.

Obviously, people should read through the entire thread before coming to any sort of decision but unfortunately not everyone will.


----------



## DNL2448

Then maybe, 'Please read the entire thread prior to making a decision on this breeder'.


----------



## GoldenSail

Or how about KISS? Keep it Simple Stupid--delete the thread. I think more harm than good will come of it, and the breeder made a reasonable request.


----------



## vcm5

The thing that gets me is that this forum was from like a year and a half ago and she has not requested it to be altered this entire time. So I just feel like she must actually be having trouble because of it or she would not have made the request. Its not like she wanted it deleted right away - people must be seriously bringing it up to her. I don't know though, I just would feel really bad if she was doing her best to improve the program and the breed and address this forum's criticism and it cost her business, especially in these financial times.


----------



## Pointgold

Deleting this thread would set a precedent for anyone to request that any thread they didn't like be deleted. 
I find it hard to believe that anything in this thread would be reason for a breeder to not allow use of a stud dog, and think that there is more to it.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

AmbikaGR said:


> It does now mention this.
> And I think that is a perfect reason not to delete this thread. It is a perfect teaching tool for a new person to help them understand the nuances and jargon of breeders and what questions they need to ask.



Gee How about we all get together and have a debate about your kennel, dogs, or your breeding program because you forgot to licence one of your dogs for instance. 

It is harmful in more ways than you can Imagen.

I have worked really really hard to get where I am and to breed that perfect show dog. Which IMO I have done! 

My bred by bitch Mia "Whiskey Creeks Look But Don't Touch" at the age of 13 months took her first two breed wins and group 4 placement. Over this weekend took both of her majors a breed and a group 3 at 15 months and now only need 3 points to finish.

It is not right to imply someone is being dishonest or hiding something simply because he/she did not send in reports to Cerf and or OFA. 

I also agree that yes I did use the wrong wording however once it was brought to my attention that by using the words "cerf clear " I was not being accurate I changed the wording almost immediately What more could i have done


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

RBCC said:


> I would worry what her pups are certified and what they aren't. This costs money, she gives you a history of your pup. When I took my pup to our vet, she looked at the notebook and was quite impressed.
> 
> Our pup, Kydd is a healthy and happy pup and gets along with our cats. She answers all your questions, and addresses your concerns and wants to come and see their new home and loves her Goldens.
> 
> She has done everything to breed a puppy that is excellent, she may not have all the money to get all accreditations that you would like to see but she absolutely loves her Golden.
> 
> Check them out, ask here about anything.
> 
> John Marshall
> Madras, OR:wavey:


Hi John,

John Marshall Owns one of Mia's litter mate brothers!! a beautiful show puppy that went to a pet home what a shame he is a real looker. How is Mr kidd doing?? :wavey:


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

AmbikaGR said:


> I do basically agree with this, but still do not see any reason to delete the thread.


You do not see a reason because it has not effected you. 

Step back and take a moment to walk in my shoes. I was almost turned down by a stud dog owner whom I do not know because she had read this thread. However once I gave her my chic card number she changed her mind (just found out).

I have been sent questionnaires by puppy buyers from the forum (witch I do not mind filling out as I have nothing to hide) 

and I have been questioned by other breeder just sayen its a pain in the a**


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> You know, if I asked for every thread where I were "attacked" (and that word means little anymore because it is bandied about so freely and any time someone disagrees with anything they are accused of "attacking" the person...) there'd be few threads I didn't..
> Seriously - this person wasn't "attacked" or "bullied' by any stretch of the imagination. VALID questions were asked, in a civil manner.
> As for my part, I was honestly trying to understand her reasoning for not submitting results, and yes, I feel that unless they are it cannot be claimed that a dog is CERF clear, OFA whatever... Yes, it may be semantics, but those details are huge when it comes to breeding, and "marketing" puppies to the general public.
> I don't know Whiskey Creek, don't even know her name. And if it is being suggested that I personally ("Thanks, Pointgold ") had ANYthing to do with breeders in her area not wanting to do business with her that is absolutely FALSE. I will say that some of her own statements and answers to questions posed in this thread (a year ago) might give pause to some, but I completely disagree that anything anyone here - me or anyone else - could be considered the cause. Perhaps it was an easy out for some other concerns breeders in her area had? I don't know. But do NOT blame me or other GRF members. The conversation was filled with good, valid, sincere questions and comments.



I have no problems with breeders in my part of the world. I can go to any stud dog I choose. I wanted to go to a stud dogs not in my part of the world. Therefore with them not knowing me personally they had some questions simply because of this thread.

You also may want to know that all of my dogs now have chic cards which I also get because of this thread


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

DNL2448 said:


> I've read through this thread. Instead of deleting it, can we put some kind of disclaimer at the first post so people will understand that it started off rocky but in the end, the breeder checked out? Just wondering.



That would be fabulous!!!


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

tippykayak said:


> I'm sorry, but are you saying that you've bred for 18 years, and none of the dogs you've ever bred has ever had any kind of cancer? How many dogs is that?


yep that is exactly what I am saying! not one to date! You are probably thinking ya right?!?! Even I have a hard time believing it. Yes I know where most of my puppies are however I will say that I have last touch with some of them. I may not know how or when they passed but for the most part I know where my puppies are. 

In the first 12 - 13 years I bred about once a year. I bred very fieldy and/or working type golden that IMO are hardier and do not SEEM to have the same issues with cancer and hip dysplasia if well bred. 

I expect to start seeing some cancer as my puppies are ageing. I also may see some hip dysplasia as in the last 5 year I have changed direction in my breeding program to more show type dogs.

I think part of the reason is I do not do a lot of line breeding and My COI is very low. I also do not breed dogs with less that OFA good or better and search for 5-10 generations back to see what hip ratings where I am very picky!! just my theory on the subject.


----------



## Ljilly28

Hmmmmmm..... The GRCA code states that they should be done and at what age NOT that you have to mail them into OFA. I have the original docks signed by the vets and once again I give them to every puppy buyer I home a puppy with. That's more than I can say for many breeders. Can you show me where is states "because not doing so does not constitute having clearances." in the code? I can't find it. You might be wrong I know of may breeders that Never send them in. Why should I have to pay for something I already have it is a suggestion not a demand.[/QUOTE said:


> For the sake of the whole breed's health in the big picture, the more recorded factual info, the better for the dogs' futures.


----------



## AmbikaGR

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Gee How about we all get together and have a debate about your kennel, dogs, or your breeding program because you forgot to licence one of your dogs for instance.



In my 20 years in the breed I have bred two litters (one 11 years ago, the other 6 years ago) and do not know when or if I will do so again. You can see all my dogs in my signature below and if you have any questions feel free to ask. And how do you equate mis-information ("CERF CLeared") with someone forgetting to license a dog? 



whiskey creek goldens said:


> I have worked really really hard to get where I am and to breed that perfect show dog. Which IMO I have done!
> 
> My bred by bitch Mia "Whiskey Creeks Look But Don't Touch" at the age of 13 months took her first two breed wins and group 4 placement. Over this weekend took both of her majors a breed and a group 3 at 15 months and now only need 3 points to finish.


Breeding that "perfect show dog" has NOTHING to do with the health of a dog or the health of the breed. There are many "successful" breeders who have beautiful show dogs but do to cutting corners and where their priorities lie I would never consider them as responsible breeders or one that I would get a dog from. And I am in no way stating YOU would fall into that category. And congratulations on Mia's success in the breed ring.




whiskey creek goldens said:


> I also agree that yes I did use the wrong wording however once it was brought to my attention that by using the words "cerf clear " I was not being accurate I changed the wording almost immediately What more could i have done


Another reason I feel the thread should not be deleted as it shows you "get it" and fixed the mistake. And you are to be commended for that. Actually you have received public recognition for it as now your dogs have their CHIC numbers and that is something to hang your hat on.


----------



## tippykayak

whiskey creek goldens said:


> yep that is exactly what I am saying! not one to date! You are probably thinking ya right?!?! Even I have a hard time believing it. Yes I know where most of my puppies are however I will say that I have last touch with some of them. I may not know how or when they passed but for the most part I know where my puppies are.


I do admit I'm really quite skeptical. How many dogs have you bred that are currently over 12 (both deceased or alive)? Perhaps I'm thinking you've bred more dogs than you have. Only a handful are on K9data under your prefix, and none of them are over 5. It's very unlikely for somebody to bring a significant number of GRs to 12 or 13 years old without at least some of them showing up with the common cancers.

My immediate thought is that you just don't have that many who've gotten that old and/or their owners haven't reported it back to you. 



whiskey creek goldens said:


> I think part of the reason is I do not do a lot of line breeding and My COI is very low. I also do not breed dogs with less that OFA good or better and search for 5-10 generations back to see what hip ratings where I am very picky!! just my theory on the subject.


I'm not surprised by a lack of HD. I believe the longer that OFA and PennHIP are available, the less we'll see it in well bred dogs. Plus, the incidence of HD in dogs with cleared parents is fairly low to begin with, so it wouldn't take much luck to have none at all in a small number of dogs. I am surprised by the claim of no cancer whatsoever. I doubt it has to do with low COI, since higher COIs don't seem to be related to incidence of cancer in the wider population.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

AmbikaGR said:


> In my 20 years in the breed I have bred two litters (one 11 years ago, the other 6 years ago) and do not know when or if I will do so again. You can see all my dogs in my signature below and if you have any questions feel free to ask. And how do you equate mis-information ("CERF CLeared") with someone forgetting to license a dog?


It was just an example I used. What I was getting at was say you have on your website that your dog was currently licensed however the licence had actually expired. that would be mis-information. it was not meant to do harm or mislead any one it just was not quite accurate. 





AmbikaGR said:


> Breeding that "perfect show dog" has NOTHING to do with the health of a dog or the health of the breed. There are many "successful" breeders who have beautiful show dogs but do to cutting corners and where their priorities lie I would never consider them as responsible breeders or one that I would get a dog from. And I am in no way stating YOU would fall into that category. And congratulations on Mia's success in the breed ring.


I totally agree health is first and formost for me!! I do not compromise on that one, as so many others do. You are right there at some beautiful show dogs out there I would not touch with a 40 foot poll. 






AmbikaGR said:


> Another reason I feel the thread should not be deleted as it shows you "get it" and fixed the mistake. And you are to be commended for that. Actually you have received public recognition for it as now your dogs have their CHIC numbers and that is something to hang your hat on.


I agree and when this whole thing started my husband had been off work for three years. Things where to say the least tight and the extra coat at that time was just not possible I also had three dogs that where due for new eye exams.

Things thank goodness have improved and I was able to submit everything. however I still know many many breeders that choose not to send them in.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

tippykayak said:


> I do admit I'm really quite skeptical. How many dogs have you bred that are currently over 12 (both deceased or alive)? Perhaps I'm thinking you've bred more dogs than you have. Only a handful are on K9data under your prefix, and none of them are over 5. It's very unlikely for somebody to bring a significant number of GRs to 12 or 13 years old without at least some of them showing up with the common cancers.
> 
> My immediate thought is that you just don't have that many who've gotten that old and/or their owners haven't reported it back to you.


Well my first litter was in 1993 or 1994 I would have to go look it up it was a field litter there were 6 puppies that all went to family. All of them lived to 11 to 13 years none passed from cancer non made it on to k9 data as they where all family pets.

my next 3 to 4 litters went to friend and family therefore I was able to keep a close watch on them and once again no real need to put them on k9data.

It has really been since I changed direction in my breeding program that I have and other will be putting information on k9data witch as stated before has been in the last 5 years. 




I'm not surprised by a lack of HD. I believe the longer that OFA and PennHIP are available, the less we'll see it in well bred dogs. Plus, the incidence of HD in dogs with cleared parents is fairly low to begin with, so it wouldn't take much luck to have none at all in a small number of dogs. I am surprised by the claim of no cancer whatsoever. I doubt it has to do with low COI, since higher COIs don't seem to be related to incidence of cancer in the wider population.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I have no problems with breeders in my part of the world. I can go to any stud dog I choose. I wanted to go to a stud dogs not in my part of the world. Therefore with them not knowing me personally they had some questions simply because of this thread.
> 
> You also may want to know that all of my dogs now have chic cards which I also get because of this thread


So what? I mean really. As a stud dog owner, I'd be asking a lot of questions, likely the same ones you were asked, whether I'd read this thread or not. You seriously cannot expect that someone who doesn't know you or your dogs is just going to cheerfully say "Sure! I'll breed your bitch!"' 

All that aside, I'm glad that you are now sending in test results. There is no reason not to, and plenty of reasons you should.


I am adding (for those who do not know) that CHIC certification (Canine Health Information Center) is NOT in itself a clearance. It simply means that all required tests for a breed have been done and submitted - passing or otherwise - and may be referenced in the CHIC database.
http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold once and for ALL OF MY DOGS have always been tested and had "reports" to back it up. Each and every one of them have PASSED all the recommended TESTS AND HAVE OFA numbers for heart, hips and elbews and cerf numbers. I could not get them if they did not pass. If they did not pass I could not get a CHIC card because you have to have a number for each test to get one!! 

I do my best to say nice things about everyone as that was the way I was brought up but....here goes 

POINTGOLD GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE you self proclaimed 4um Bully or did some one else give that title to you? because it fits! You are just plain mean!!! not only to me but for so many others.


----------



## Tahnee GR

Actually, Pointgold is correct regarding CHIC tests. From the CHIC site listed above (bolding is mine):

CHIC Numbers and Reports

A CHIC number is issued when test results are entered into the database satisfying each breed specific requirement, and when the owner of the dog has opted to release the results into the public domain. *The CHIC number itself does not imply normal test results*, only that all the required breed specific tests were performed and the results made publicly available.


----------



## DNL2448

whiskey creek goldens said:


> POINTGOLD GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE you self proclaimed 4um Bully or did some one else give that title to you? because it fits! You are just plain mean!!! not only to me but for so many others.


Whoa, wait a minute. Pointgold is a VERY knowledgeable contributer on this forum. Nothing she said has been false. To the point...YES, but I would much rather her tell me something straight out than sugar coat things.


----------



## AmbikaGR

whiskey creek goldens said:


> If they did not pass I could not get a CHIC card because you have to have a number for each test to get one!!



Umm I think you should take a deep breath and compose yourself. Pointgold is of course correct. Here is a link to a Golden who failed eyes - retinal dysplasia - and has a CHIC number

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


----------



## vcm5

I know things can get frustrating and its easy to get worked up, especially over issues of breeding. There are just so many breeders who do not do things correctly and really cause a lot of pain - from families that purchase the dogs, to the dogs themselves, to the breed as a whole. It is a touchy issue but please please remember that everyone ultimately wants the same thing - healthy, happy dogs and a breed free of debilitating genetic illnesses. 

Sometimes arguments may occur and tempers may flare, but remember that even though some people may seem harsh, they ultimately want the same thing you do - the breeding of dogs with sound genetic histories. Remember that the reason many of these people are tough on breeders is that they have seen so many terrible breeders that take advantage of the breed just to make a buck and the results can be devastating. Once you have seen enough of that, its easy to think that it is better to be harsh on everyone and risk upsetting a few people than to be nice and understanding about everything and risk not giving people the information they truly need in order to prevent them from purchasing puppies from bad breeders. 

We really do respect the fact that you listened to criticism and made a positive change - so few people take that route. But please don't take as an attack and bullying what is truly just a fierce love for golden retrievers and a willingness to protect these dogs no matter what. As a breeder, you must know how many people breed dogs carelessly and how terrible the results can be. You know more about your breeding program than anyone else and you may do everything you possibly can to ensure the health of your dogs and the breed as a whole, but please know that that makes you the exception, not the rule (and this is something to be applauded for!). But on this forum many individuals are relentless and critical, but it is not a personal thing, it is meant to be good for the dogs.

I really do not believe that anyone wishes to hurt your breeding program at all. No one dislikes you in the least. I think they just worry that if this thread is deleted people may miss out on reading an extremely valuable debate and an extremely good example of how breeding and criticisms should be approached.


----------



## DNL2448

vcm5 said:


> I know things can get frustrating and its easy to get worked up, especially over issues of breeding. There are just so many breeders who do not do things correctly and really cause a lot of pain - from families that purchase the dogs, to the dogs themselves, to the breed as a whole. It is a touchy issue but please please remember that everyone ultimately wants the same thing - healthy, happy dogs and a breed free of debilitating genetic illnesses.
> 
> Sometimes arguments may occur and tempers may flare, but remember that even though some people may seem harsh, they ultimately want the same thing you do - the breeding of dogs with sound genetic histories. Remember that the reason many of these people are tough on breeders is that they have seen so many terrible breeders that take advantage of the breed just to make a buck and the results can be devastating. Once you have seen enough of that, its easy to think that it is better to be harsh on everyone and risk upsetting a few people than to be nice and understanding about everything and risk not giving people the information they truly need in order to prevent them from purchasing puppies from bad breeders.
> 
> We really do respect the fact that you listened to criticism and made a positive change - so few people take that route. But please don't take as an attack and bullying what is truly just a fierce love for golden retrievers and a willingness to protect these dogs no matter what. As a breeder, you must know how many people breed dogs carelessly and how terrible the results can be. You know more about your breeding program than anyone else and you may do everything you possibly can to ensure the health of your dogs and the breed as a whole, but please know that that makes you the exception, not the rule (and this is something to be applauded for!). But on this forum many individuals are relentless and critical, but it is not a personal thing, it is meant to be good for the dogs.
> 
> I really do not believe that anyone wishes to hurt your breeding program at all. No one dislikes you in the least. I think they just worry that if this thread is deleted people may miss out on reading an extremely valuable debate and an extremely good example of how breeding and criticisms should be approached.


:appl:Well said....


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Pointgold once and for ALL OF MY DOGS have always been tested and had "reports" to back it up. Each and every one of them have PASSED all the recommended TESTS AND HAVE OFA numbers for heart, hips and elbews and cerf numbers. I could not get them if they did not pass. If they did not pass I could not get a CHIC card because you have to have a number for each test to get one!!
> 
> I do my best to say nice things about everyone as that was the way I was brought up but....here goes
> 
> POINTGOLD GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE you self proclaimed 4um Bully or did some one else give that title to you? because it fits! You are just plain mean!!! not only to me but for so many others.


Excuse me, but I said nothing about your having or not having tests, I said that stud dog owners would, and should, ask a lot of questions before breeding ANY bitch. No high horse there, dear. Nor have I said anything mean or not nice to or about you. 

I am correct about the CHIC and was explaining it for others.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> Just checked a bit further - the sire of the litter is listed as Ch Terins In The Public Eye. (It's actually Teran's) He is a 9 year old dog, and is also not in the CERF data base, nor does he have a cardiac clearance, although both are claimed on the website of his owner. I'm not sure why he has a Teran's prefix, since Teran is Terry Neider, in in K9 his breeder is listed a M. McNeil. In any regards, some things just don't seem to add upso I would encourage lots of questions be asked.


While I agree with what was said in this section. I would have advise the person to make sure you see all original reports as some breeders for one reason or another do not always send them in. No more needed to be said Like "In any regards, some things just don't seem to add up".





whiskey creek goldens said:


> "Just checked a bit further - the sire of the litter is listed as Ch Terins In The Public Eye. (It's actually Teran's) He is a 9 year old dog, and is also not in the CERF data base, nor does he have a cardiac clearance, although both are claimed on the website of his owner. I'm not sure why he has a Teran's prefix, since Teran is Terry Neider, in in K9 his breeder is listed a M. McNeil. In any regards, some things just don't seem to add upso I would encourage lots of questions be asked."
> 
> I am the owner of Maggie and a gal by the name of Mary Peed is Winks owner. She bought him from Terry when he was about two years old along with a bitch by the name of Magenta. Mary finished winks CH in Portland oregon. Magenta had a medical issue and had to be payed I do not know if she was shown
> 
> You are speculating that our dogs do not have the proper clearances, I assure you that they do. I have record of all. So I do not choose to send them on to OFA that is my choice. I would be happy to provide them to anyone who asks.
> 
> I am a member or our national and local golden club in good standing and am also listed on the breeder list. I abide by the code of ethics set forth by the national club.
> 
> Maggie is a UKC and international CH. Maggie was only in one AKC show as she hated to show so why stress her out over it. She and Wink together produced two lovely litters. Please feel free so snoop some more please take note of Willa, Madison and Paige all three are showing and are beautiful examples of the breed.
> 
> everyting on my website is accurate and true. www.whiskeycreekgolden2.com
> 
> happy snooping:wavey:


IMO once I clarified that all of my dog had current exam "reports" I changed the wording on my site to make it more accurate that should have been enough. However my website had never had so many visitors, I was poked and prodded by many, almost called a lire when it came to Pat Hastings rating one of my litters as all show prospect. Which by the way just happened again a litter of 4 all show prospects in her words "what a beautiful litter to bad is was so small". If you want copies just email me and I will provide. Nothing to hide and very proud of it!!! 

I finally had to give a reason why I would not or in my case could not send them in because people would not leave it alone. When you are out of work $12.00 X 10 dogs is food for your dogs for the week. IMO food trumped cerf or am I wrong.

I just asked another simple question about deleting this thread and here we go again. I think I will stick to my thread about Mia its so much more fun.


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> While I agree with what was said in this section. I would have advise the person to make sure you see all original reports as some breeders for one reason or another do not always send them in. No more needed to be said Like "In any regards, some things just don't seem to add up".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMO once I clarified that all of my dog had current exam "reports" I changed the wording on my site to make it more accurate that should have been enough. However my website had never had so many visitors, I was poked and prodded by many, almost called a lire when it came to Pat Hastings rating one of my litters as all show prospect. Which by the way just happened again a litter of 4 all show prospects in her words "what a beautiful litter to bad is was so small". If you want copies just email me and I will provide. Nothing to hide and very proud of it!!!
> 
> I finally had to give a reason why I would not or in my case could not send them in because people would not leave it alone. When you are out of work $12.00 X 10 dogs is food for your dogs for the week. IMO food trumped cerf or am I wrong.
> 
> I just asked another simple question about deleting this thread and here we go again. I think I will stick to my thread about Mia its so much more fun.


 
It's about accuracy. Something that I would think that a Public Education Chair for a Golden Retriever club would be very concerned with.

As for food trumping CERF, if we are playing paper/scissors/rock, I'd say that while food trumps CERF, CERF trumps showing.Winning is exciting and fun, sure. I love it. But when the entry fee for one show covers two CERF's, CERF wins. Maybe that's just me.


----------



## DNL2448

You're right, the Mia thread is much better! I went over and read through that and saw the pictures, she is LOVELY! Keep doing what you're doing and things will work out fine. Call this thread a learning experience for all of us! 

Maybe we'll meet at a show in the future (I'd be in the obedience ring). Did you by any chance show in Klamath last month?


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Tahnee GR said:


> Actually, Pointgold is correct regarding CHIC tests. From the CHIC site listed above (bolding is mine):
> 
> CHIC Numbers and Reports
> 
> A CHIC number is issued when test results are entered into the database satisfying each breed specific requirement, and when the owner of the dog has opted to release the results into the public domain. *The CHIC number itself does not imply normal test results*, only that all the required breed specific tests were performed and the results made publicly available.


I learned something new thanks


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I learned something new thanks


You're welcome.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> It's about accuracy. Something that I would think that a Public Education Chair for a Golden Retriever club would be very concerned with.
> 
> As for food trumping CERF, if we are playing paper/scissors/rock, I'd say that while food trumps CERF, CERF trumps showing.Winning is exciting and fun, sure. I love it. But when the entry fee for one show covers two CERF's, CERF wins. Maybe that's just me.


I was not showing my dogs at that time. I took some time off from showing and when things got better I came back to it. Once again assuming things you do not know.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

DNL2448 said:


> You're right, the Mia thread is much better! I went over and read through that and saw the pictures, she is LOVELY! Keep doing what you're doing and things will work out fine. Call this thread a learning experience for all of us!
> 
> Maybe we'll meet at a show in the future (I'd be in the obedience ring). Did you by any chance show in Klamath last month?


First thank you for saying she is lovely She really is something spacial!!

ya lets change the name to that lol

I love to do obedience are you go to Centrailia I have a girl entered in rally there. 

and of course Mia in open bitch hoping for her last 3 points.

Yes I was at k-falls with 3 dogs. All conformation did't do very well though pro handler show. pam sage, and Lori Jordon Fenner where there no chance in hell lol


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I was not showing my dogs at that time. I took some time off from showing and when things got better I came back to it. Once again assuming things you do not know.


Actually, my "assumptions" are soley based on your own statements made in this thread, last year, and reference showing in venues other than just AKC. 
It is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, that if you are going to be a breeder, health clearances are one area that you don't try to "save a buck". As I stated early on in this thread, I do not take financial hardships lightly and don't wish it on anyone.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> Actually, my "assumptions" are soley based on your own statements made in this thread, last year, and reference showing in venues other than just AKC.
> It is my opinion, and I am entitled to it, that if you are going to be a breeder, health clearances are one area that you don't try to "save a buck". As I stated early on in this thread, I do not take financial hardships lightly and don't wish it on anyone.


Really just read the whole thing not once did I mention that I was showing in any venue at that time. But then you are the expert in my life, my kennel, and my show schedule.


----------



## ragtym

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Really just read the whole thing not once did I mention that I was showing in any venue at that time. But then you are the expert in my life, my kennel, and my show schedule.


Good grief Whiskey Creek - back away from the computer, and go play with your dogs for a few minutes. You are angry, I get that, but you are letting that cloud your thoughts and taking this WAY too personally.

PG and others made some valid points and you stepped up, addressed them and fixed them. Good for you! I think it's fantastic that you are submitting your clearances and getting CHIC numbers for your dogs but you need to understand people here, PG included, have dealt with MANY others who simply changed their websites and continued doing (or not doing) the things they were questioned about.

You should know that by returning to this thread and asking for its deletion, you made it move higher in the Google rankings by reactivating it. The more active it becomes, the higher it will go. Had you simply returned and said, "I am now submitting all test results to the respective registries", the thread would have died.

Instead you continue to take offense at things that you should not be offended by. PG's posting about CHIC was not a dig at you, it was informing anyone who reads this thread who may not know that CHIC registers passing and failing results. You yourself said that you didn't realize that so her posting was helpful, not hurtful.

Please just take a step back for a minute and stop posting while you are p*ssed off because you are not actually reading and understanding what is being said, you are simply reacting.


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Really just read the whole thing not once did I mention that I was showing in any venue at that time. But then you are the expert in my life, my kennel, and my show schedule.


 
One could see how these statements might lead one to believe that you were showing:

"I know that I have beautiful dogs that can walk into a show ring and place in the top 4 in their class." 

"I have been letting go of my field dogs and replacing them with show prospects for the last three years" 

"Then there is Mia she is the first of my breeding that I am Really Really looking forward to getting out in the show ring. Not that Madison, Piage, and Willa chopped liver"

"Were I live you can get to an AKC show everyother weekend if you want there is minimal travel."

Granted, there was nothing mentioned that would suggest a time frame, or that you'd take time out from showing, but I believe you can see how one might "assume" that you were showing.


----------



## DNL2448

Life's too short for our beloved dogs to get in a pi$$ing match on a forum over things that have been corrected. Let it go. Let's hear more about Mia.


----------



## Pointgold

DNL2448 said:


> Life's too short for our beloved dogs to get in a pi$$ing match on a forum over things that have been corrected. Let it go. Let's hear more about Mia.


I'm sure we will.


----------



## Jo Ellen

good lord

:bricks1:


----------



## Pointgold

Geeze. "I'm sure we will" because Mia is a hot little puppy - we'll be hearing/seeing more of her, I'm sure.

Good lord.


----------



## GoldensGirl

There is something to be said for a thread like this one. It shows the best and the worst of this community. I hope it will be closed before it alienates more members. 

Whiskey Creek Goldens, please focus your attention on threads where we can see photos of your dogs, celebrate your successes, mourn the losses, and focus on what's right. By all means correct the things on your web site that draw fire and do please send in your certs. But please just let this thread go.


----------



## Enzos_Mom

If everybody doesn't want the thread deleted, what about maybe removing the name of the kennel?? Then it could stay here as a learning experience for anyone who stumbles across it without hurting anyone's reputation. Just a thought...


----------



## mybuddy

Someone is being hurt by this thread. She asked to have it removed. What is there to think about? Seems the compassionate, human thing to do would be delete it. Keep the thread-hurt someone....delete the thread and make someone happy. Hmmm...no brainer.


----------



## Retrieverlover

I am just thankful some breeder even CERF their retirees and make sure they are still listed in the databank. That is money well spent. 

And frankly, $12 or whatever CERF or OFFA costs these days isn't that much money considering someone breeds several litter/sells puppies a year. I rather do things right and feel good about it than cutting corners


----------



## Pointgold

mybuddy said:


> Someone is being hurt by this thread. She asked to have it removed. What is there to think about? Seems the compassionate, human thing to do would be delete it. Keep the thread-hurt someone....delete the thread and make someone happy. Hmmm...no brainer.


 
And how many other threads?


----------



## mybuddy

Pointgold said:


> And how many other threads?


 
What do you mean?


----------



## Tahnee GR

I hate to set the precedent of deleting threads. If this thread is deleted, what other threads might be deleted? Others have asked in the past, and the answer has always been "No" and I agree with that answer.

The mods can lock the thread, so there is no more discussion, and perhaps her other thread will continue to gain responses.


----------



## mybuddy

The other people who have asked to have their threads closed, was it because it was hurting them professionally? If yes, then I think their threads should have been closed too. It is just my opinion. If this was happening to me or a family member of mine, I would want it closed. 

I do not disrespect anyone's opinion but really do not see what the big deal is. It is a dog forum so why not? They are just words in cyberspace. Let the breeder continue her business in peace.


----------



## Pointgold

mybuddy said:


> What do you mean?


I mean that deleting this thread would set a precedent for other threads to be deleted simply because someone's feelings are hurt, someone doesn't like something said, etc etc.
If this one is, I could certainly ask for _several _to be.


----------



## mybuddy

The woman is asking to have the thread closed because her business is hurting, not her feelings.

That said, I would never be opposed to closing a thread if a person's feelings were hurt either ...hey, why not if it would make them happy.


----------



## GoldenSail

I think there are definitely occasions where threads should be deleted by the mods, but always at their discretion. We don't need everything that happens out there in cyberspace for the whole world to see forever. JMO.


----------



## Pointgold

mybuddy said:


> The woman is asking to have the thread closed because her business is hurting, not her feelings.
> 
> That said, I would never be opposed to closing a thread if a person's feelings were hurt either ...hey, why not if it would make them happy.


 
And what about the threads where the intent IS to "hurt someone's business", ie puppy millers, etc? It would surely make the White Doves/GoldRocks/etc of the world happy.


----------



## Pointgold

GoldenSail said:


> I think there are definitely occasions where threads should be deleted by the mods, but always at their discretion. We don't need everything that happens out there in cyberspace for the whole world to see forever. JMO.


It is up to individuals to not post something that they don't want the whole world to see forever. And if a forum rule is violated, the mods deal with it individually.


----------



## mybuddy

Pointgold said:


> And what about the threads where the intent IS to "hurt someone's business", ie puppy millers, etc? It would surely make the White Doves/GoldRocks/etc of the world happy.


I do not think this woman is a puppy miller is she? She seems like she is running a legit business so why would anyone want to keep a thread that is hurting her. Just wondering is all.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

I don't think the entire thread should be deleted, but I think the posts not relevant to the CERF issue where speculation was made about other clearances and/or the Pat Hastings comments and/or any other off topic comments could be deleted without ruining the educational aspect of the thread. JMHO.


----------



## mybuddy

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I don't think the entire thread should be deleted, but I think the posts not relevant to the CERF issue where speculation was made about other clearances and/or the Pat Hastings comments and/or any other off topic comments could be deleted without ruining the educational aspect of the thread. JMHO.


That would work. In any case, I just hope that the forum does right by this breeder. The speculation could really hurt her business.


----------



## Pointgold

mybuddy said:


> I do not think this woman is a puppy miller is she? She seems like she is running a legit business so why would anyone want to keep a thread that is hurting her. Just wondering is all.


Nope. And no one has even suggested that she is. However, the thread is a progression of how she has corrected "misunderstandings", "miswordings", etc, and is both educational, and illustrates valid concerns which were addressed. If, as a breeder, she can't get a stud owner to breed one of her bitches based on the clearances and pedigrees that she says she has, there is something else the stud owner must have concerns with and nothing on this forum is responsible. It's breeding. It happens. Forum posts or otherwise. 

Seriously. If one thinks that threads that "hurt" someone - whether it be their business or their feelings - should all be deleted, I can start right now and offer up dozens. :no:


----------



## Pointgold

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I don't think the entire thread should be deleted, but I think the posts not relevant to the CERF issue where speculation was made about other clearances and/or the Pat Hastings comments and/or any other off topic comments could be deleted without ruining the educational aspect of the thread. JMHO.


 
Who's to make these determinations? That is the sort of censorship that should never happen in this or any other thread. Should we select an Oversight Committee? A Board of Review with experts to help determine what should or should not be allowed to remain on the Forum? I think the mods have enough to do just assuring that everything remains within the realm of Forum Rules, and nothing in this thread wasn't. It will be a slippery slope if we now add that if someone doesn't like something or other it be deleted.


----------



## mybuddy

Pointgold said:


> Nope. And no one has even suggested that she is. However, the thread is a progression of how she has corrected "misunderstandings", "miswordings", etc, and is both educational, and illustrates valid concerns which were addressed. If, as a breeder, she can't get a stud owner to breed one of her bitches based on the clearances and pedigrees that she says she has, there is something else the stud owner must have concerns with and nothing on this forum is responsible. It's breeding. It happens. Forum posts or otherwise.
> 
> Seriously. If one thinks that threads that "hurt" someone - whether it be their business or their feelings - should all be deleted, I can start right now and offer up dozens. :no:


If it were my forum, I would not have a problem deleting anything. They are just words. That is just me. I am not a breeder so the logistics mean nothing to me, I just hear someone asking for a favor. I am the type that would just give it to them...anyone for that matter. Why not? Just why not? At the end of the day, who will suffer by the thread being deleted?

Sometimes there is just way too much thinking involved. I say, just do it!


----------



## mybuddy

Pointgold said:


> Who's to make these determinations? That is the sort of censorship that should never happen in this or any other thread. Should we select an Oversight Committee? A Board of Review with experts to help determine what should or should not be allowed to remain on the Forum? I think the mods have enough to do just assuring that everything remains within the realm of Forum Rules, and nothing in this thread wasn't. It will be a slippery slope if we now add that if someone doesn't like something or other it be deleted.


Yeah, but it is just a dog forum.


----------



## Enzos_Mom

I do get where PG is coming from. Nobody said anything in this thread that was a lie. If any information was said in here that is hurting her business, it's because her website was incorrect. Although, personally, I would think that it should HELP her business because it shows that she wants to do right and that she's willing to take advice and correct her mistakes. And no, I don't believe she's a puppy mill...but who are we to make that determination?? It's not up to us. This forum knows a lot, but we don't know everything. That said, while I don't think the thread should be deleted, I really don't think it would hurt anything to just remove the name of her kennel from the posts. Everything that was said would still be available to the public for them to read and learn what to look for...but her business wouldn't be hurting in the meantime.


----------



## mybuddy

Enzos_Mom said:


> I do get where PG is coming from. Nobody said anything in this thread that was a lie. If any information was said in here that is hurting her business, it's because her website was incorrect. Although, personally, I would think that it should HELP her business because it shows that she wants to do right and that she's willing to take advice and correct her mistakes. And no, I don't believe she's a puppy mill...but who are we to make that determination?? It's not up to us. This forum knows a lot, but we don't know everything. That said, while I don't think the thread should be deleted, I really don't think it would hurt anything to just remove the name of her kennel from the posts. Everything that was said would still be available to the public for them to read and learn what to look for...but her business wouldn't be hurting in the meantime.


That would work too. If for whatever reason threads cannot be deleted, at least the name could be taken off. Just as long as her business does not suffer...anything along those lines would be decent. :wavey:


----------



## nixietink

Enzos_Mom said:


> I do get where PG is coming from. Nobody said anything in this thread that was a lie. If any information was said in here that is hurting her business, it's because her website was incorrect. Although, personally, I would think that it should HELP her business because it shows that she wants to do right and that she's willing to take advice and correct her mistakes. And no, I don't believe she's a puppy mill...but who are we to make that determination?? It's not up to us. This forum knows a lot, but we don't know everything. That said, while I don't think the thread should be deleted, I really don't think it would hurt anything to just remove the name of her kennel from the posts. Everything that was said would still be available to the public for them to read and learn what to look for...but her business wouldn't be hurting in the meantime.


The only problem with that is that the breeder's screen name is the screen name of her kennel. I think most people would be able to put 2 and 2 together to figure it out.


----------



## Enzos_Mom

Yeah, but screen names have been changed before. If she really wants to not be associated with this whole thread, I'm sure she wouldn't mind changing her screen name. It's the only way I can see that both sides will be happy.


----------



## Pointgold

mybuddy said:


> Yeah, but it is just a dog forum.


Really... then it should not be such a big deal and nothing should be deleted since it's "just dogs".


----------



## Pointgold

Enzos_Mom said:


> I do get where PG is coming from. Nobody said anything in this thread that was a lie. If any information was said in here that is hurting her business, it's because her website was incorrect. Although, personally, I would think that it should HELP her business because it shows that she wants to do right and that she's willing to take advice and correct her mistakes. And no, I don't believe she's a puppy mill...but who are we to make that determination?? It's not up to us. This forum knows a lot, but we don't know everything. That said, while I don't think the thread should be deleted, I really don't think it would hurt anything to just remove the name of her kennel from the posts. Everything that was said would still be available to the public for them to read and learn what to look for...but her business wouldn't be hurting in the meantime.


If it were me, and a stud dog owner refused to breed one of my bitches because of something they read on a dog forum, even AFTER I provided everything necessary, I'd move on. There are other dogs. I honestly cannot imagine a stud dog owner refusing to breed a good bitch if everything were in place (clearances, etc.)


----------



## mybuddy

Pointgold said:


> Really... then it should not be such a big deal and nothing should be deleted since it's "just dogs".


Round and round makes me dizzy so I want to get off now. 

Ciao Bella :wavey:

Peace Whiskey Creek. I hope everything works out for ya.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> And what about the threads where the intent IS to "hurt someone's business", ie puppy millers, etc? It would surely make the White Doves/GoldRocks/etc of the world happy.


I for once agree with PG on this one. That yes we need to be careful when choosing to delete or not delete. 

However in this particular case you can see from the very beginning. That I belong to the national GR club, The local GR club, several all breed clubs, I am active with my dogs in AKC,UKC,IBICA, and CKC. My website is professorial with lots if information on the breed. I do not have a litter every 20 days. my dog are well kept with tons of show photos.

My only infraction which is not against the GRCA COE was not that I did not have my reports sent into OFA and Cerf to be reported on the national data base, and that I used incorrect wording on my website. That was changed when brought to my attention.

I no longer want this taken off I do think that this will be a valuable tool. Just yesterday another puppy buyer asked about a kennel. Some people started putting her under a microscope just as they did me.

I Chimed in and said this: I would recommend that you call her, talk with her, ask her to send copies of current reports as some people choose not to send them in to OFA and Cref for one reason or another. Then I would go out meet her and make sure to see the originals.

I did however forget to say that the hips and elbows should always be sent in to OFA and that the reposts should always come form a board certified ophthalmologist and cardiologist as per the GRCA COE. please read below and then add a copy of the code. simple really!


This is really all that need to be said all this back and forth is damaging to people and kennel reputation's that do not deserve it.

However go for it if in face you can determine that no testing is being done and they have several litters at a time and several different breeds. I do not want that for our breed either!! 

I am a fighter and fought back to get my point across that I really did nothing wrong according to the GRCA COE.


----------



## Pointgold

mybuddy said:


> If it were my forum, I would not have a problem deleting anything. They are just words. That is just me. I am not a breeder so the logistics mean nothing to me, I just hear someone asking for a favor. I am the type that would just give it to them...anyone for that matter. Why not? Just why not? At the end of the day, who will suffer by the thread being deleted?
> 
> Sometimes there is just way too much thinking involved. I say, just do it!


 
And those of us who are responsible breeders do not look at them as "just words". Someone has to be an advocate for the well being of the breed and the dogs.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Pointgold said:


> If it were me, and a stud dog owner refused to breed one of my bitches because of something they read on a dog forum, even AFTER I provided everything necessary, I'd move on. There are other dogs. I honestly cannot imagine a stud dog owner refusing to breed a good bitch if everything were in place (clearances, etc.)


 FYI to all I have worked things out with the stud owner it's a go! When my girl is ready.

I was taken back when refused when I first contacted him as i have never had my ethics questioned before.


----------



## mybuddy

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I for once agree with PG on this one. That yes we need to be careful when choosing to delete or not delete.
> 
> However in this particular case you can see from the very beginning. That I belong to the national GR club, The local GR club, several all breed clubs, I am active with my dogs in AKC,UKC,IBICA, and CKC. My website is professorial with lots if information on the breed. I do not have a litter every 20 days. ny dog are well kept with tons of show photos.
> 
> My only infraction which is not against the GRCA COE was not that I did not have my reports sent into OFA and Cerf to be reported on the national data base, and that I used incorrect wording on my website. That was changed when brought to my attention.
> 
> I no longer want this taken off I do think that this will be a valuable tool. Just yesterday another puppy buyer asked about a kennel. Some people started putting her under a microscope just as they did me.
> 
> I Chimed in and said this: I would recommend that you call her, talk with her, ask her to send copies of current reports as some people choose not to send them in to OFA and Cref for one reason or another. Then I would go out meet her and make sure to see the originals.
> 
> I did however forget to say that the hips and elbows should always be sent in to OFA and that the reposts should always come form a board certified ophthalmologist and cardiologist as per the GRCA COE. please read below and then add a copy of the code. simple really!
> 
> 
> This is really all that need to be said all this back and forth is damaging to people and kennel reputation's that do not deserve it.
> 
> However go for it if in face you can determine that no testing is being done and they have several litters at a time and several different breeds. I do not want that for our breed either!!
> 
> I am a fighter and fought back to get my point across that I really did nothing wrong according to the GRCA COE.


OMG...so you no longer want the thead taken off now? LOL....hey, is there any way I could have my past 10-15 posts in this thead deleted? hee hee

I hope you do well. Hugs and best of luck


----------



## nixietink

whiskey creek goldens said:


> FYI to all I have worked things out with the stud owner it's a go! When my girl is ready.
> 
> I was taken back when refused when I first contacted him as i have never had my ethics questioned before.


So happy everything worked out and that the air is cleared.  I hope the breeding goes splendidly!


----------



## Pointgold

whiskey creek goldens said:


> FYI to all I have worked things out with the stud owner it's a go! When my girl is ready.
> 
> I was taken back when refused when I first contacted him as i have never had my ethics questioned before.


 
Trust me. It won't be the first or last time, no matter what. It's always something. And frankly, if ever questioned (which I always expect to be, and we _should _be) I don't take it personally and I cheerfully and proudly provide the answers and documentation for every concern.


----------



## goldensrbest

If this is going to be closed, now is the time.


----------



## Enzos_Mom

goldensrbest said:


> If this is going to be closed, now is the time.


No need, at this point...everything has resolved itself.


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

mybuddy said:


> OMG...so you no longer want the thead taken off now? LOL....hey, is there any way I could have my past 10-15 posts in this thead deleted? hee hee
> 
> I hope you do well. Hugs and best of luck


Nope!:no:

However it would be nice to take out my kennel name off and I have no problem changing my user name.

After having a good night sleep, and reading the other thread mentioned. Maybe just maybe this thread will make a difference in how we say things to people asking our advice about breeders, so that we don't harm the good but can hopefully direct them away form unrepeatable/unethical breeders! :crossfing


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Thought you all might enjoy a couple of photos of my girl Mia she was at the specialty in Alaska the 18th and 19th she took best in sweeps and RWB I love the RWB photo but on the Sweeps photos the sun was out and mad her look funny. anyway enjoy.


----------



## AmbikaGR

whiskey creek goldens said:


> FYI to all I have worked things out with the stud owner it's a go! When my girl is ready.
> 
> I was taken back when refused when I first contacted him as i have never had my ethics questioned before.



Well it sounds like someone (stud owner) came to their senses. I am very happy for you, hope you get what you are looking fo from the breeding. :wavey:


----------



## whiskey creek goldens

Up Date:

Mia Finished her AKC CH at 16 months of ages by taking another 5 point major!! Whoop whoop!!


----------



## ArthurFonzer

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I am a fighter and fought back to get my point across that I really did nothing wrong according to the GRCA COE.


And in doing so you have shown your determination to the breed through the changes you have made and the passion you have shown. I have been spending the past 5 months researching breeds, and after falling in love with Goldens I plan to spend another 3 months absorbing all the knowledge about the breed I can.

I am an Oregon resident and researched most of the local breeders, however you have stood out. I came across this thread while looking for all the information I could get on you. I wanted to simply say this - Do not dwell on lost opportunities, appreciate gained opportunities. The way you carried yourself in this thread has actually increased my confidence in you as a person, as a breeder. 

Glad to hear Mia is doing so well!

Cheers from Lake Oswego!!


----------

