# Same grandfather and great grandfather?



## md-rlh (Jul 7, 2011)

Hello,

I'm new to this board and found a couple recommended breeders in Maryland from the site. I like the looks of an upcoming litter at one of the breeders but the father of the sire is the same as the grandfather of the dam (common dog is Am/Can CH Summit's Truck'n Eldorado). I know that some lines start to cross after a number of generations but this seems a little recent. Should I be concerned? 

Thank you!


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess I would have to look at the over all pedigree. Are there anyother cross overs?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Line breeding, when done by a reputable breeder who knows the lines they're line breeding on, can be a major plus in a pedigree if you like the dog they're line breeding on - IMO (which should be taken with a grain of salt since I'm a relative newbie to this stuff  ). There are limits to everything though, but (again as a newbie) I'm not sure where that line would be for me. Hopefully others will chime in, there is a wealth of knowledge regarding pedigrees/breeding on this board.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I would not be concerned at all about a pair with a common sire/grandsire...assuming I liked the common dog.

"The Ins and Outs of Pedigree Analysis, Genetic Diversity, and Genetic Disease Control"
http://clubs.akc.org/wtca/health/health_bell_1.pdf


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

That's a great article!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I can manage to get through this one without getting dizzy... ;-)


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

If you contact the breeder, ask if she has done a test breeding on K9Data (an online Golden pedigree database). If she has you can look at it and see what the coefficient of inbreeding is (COI), that will give you more information about the breeding.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And remember if it is line breeding or in breeding, you can double up on the recessive genes, good or bad.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I think this is alright as long as you like this common dog - remember that this dogs genetics will show up extra in your puppy - the good and the bad! I would be more concerned about the fact that the breeder has all the correct clearances done (hips, elbows, heart, and eyes) than about this issue. Good luck!!


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## md-rlh (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you all for the fast replies. I will talk to the breeder but looking for some objective opinions first. Regarding the COI noted above, is there a generally accepted level that is considered too risky? The dam has a COIs of 10 years - 7.1% and 12 years -9.4%, while the sire is 10 years - 6% and 12 years - 6.8%. Will need to see if breeder has run a test COI.

LibertyME - thanks for the article...I'll have to read it this weekend to try to digest it.

vcm5 - Is that a picture of Summit's Truck'n El Dorado? Appears that the breeder has all the appropriate clearances (from what I can garner online - will confirm though). Appears the sire (who is over 10 years old) has progressive retinal atrophy and a cataract. Also notes "HOMOZYGOUS NORMAL - THIS DOG HAS TWO NORMAL COPIES OF THE GR-PRA1 GENE" on the website. Should either of those concern me? 

This dog seems to be the sire or sire's sire of a number of litters that I'm seeing at the recommended breeders in Baltimore, Maryland.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Those are both relatively low COI's, but the important one is the litter. COI alone does not tell you a whole lot. I prefer genetic influence tables, but those are run only by some programs and, to be meaningful, you need to know the dogs behind the numbers, just as in COI.

Not sure about the PRA-there is more than one type. One found predominantly in American field lines (so far)(prcd-PRA) and one found primarily in British/European lines (GR-PRA1).

About Prcd-PRA

OptiGen PRA testing for Golden Retrievers

GR PRA1 for Golden Retrievers

If the dog actually does have PRA, then yes, that would concern me. Senior cataracts, assuming that's what it is,do not concern me. Where are you seeing that the dog has PRA?


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## md-rlh (Jul 7, 2011)

Tahnee - 

Thank you very much for the info!

I was misinterpreting the results on offa.org. It was noting that the test was for PRA not that the dog had PRA. The results appear to be ideal (homozygous normal) based on your last link.

Wasn't too worried about the cataracts given the dog's age.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

md-rlh: What picture are you asking about?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Some of the big show kennels here in the Northeast have dogs with COI's of 30 %. The type of cataract that CERF's is "punctate cataract significance unknown." The hereditary type of cataract is posterior on the lens, so if a cataract is in a different place, it "CERF's".


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## md-rlh (Jul 7, 2011)

vcm5 - sorry misinterpreted your comment and thought that "this dog" in the comment referred to the common dog that I was talking about. I see now that the picture is of your dog and in the signature section...sorry for the confusion...very cute dog though 

Sally's Mom - the sire has the CERF-able cataract that you noted. I do see that the maternal granddam is noted as having a CERF of "A3 - Distichiasis,E1 - Punctate cataract - significance unknown" at the age of 4. This appears to be a little more concerning.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Again, punctate cataract significance unknown is just that. It is not considered heritable due to its location, therefore the age of the dog doesn't matter.... cataracts like that can arise from injury, certain medications, etc.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

In K9Data, the average 10 generation COI for Goldens is 9.75, so the parents are about average. However, the litter may have a higher COI because of the common dog.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

md-rlh said:


> vcm5 - sorry misinterpreted your comment and thought that "this dog" in the comment referred to the common dog that I was talking about. I see now that the picture is of your dog and in the signature section...sorry for the confusion...very cute dog though
> 
> Sally's Mom - the sire has the CERF-able cataract that you noted. I do see that the maternal granddam is noted as having a CERF of "A3 - Distichiasis,E1 - Punctate cataract - significance unknown" at the age of 4. This appears to be a little more concerning.


I agree with Sally's Mom-I wouldn't worry about the punctate cataract, and the distichia is only worrisome if there are a lot of hairs and they are rubbing on the eye and causing problems. A lot of distichia come and go, they might be present on one exam and gone on the next.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have had one girl that CERF'ed for years then had a distichia then never had it again. I also had one with a distichia the first time then never again. My ophthalmologist thinks that distichia in goldens is no big deal.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I have a girl (fcr) with distichia... two hairs in one eye.... we bred to a dog whow as cerf'ed clear... none of the puppies have distichia that have had clearances done and I haven't been told that any of the pet pups have it either...


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