# Force to Pile aka FTP



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I am in this place with Bonnie. We had finished 3HC, FTP, and TT last year, and were getting set to move into 3LP when hunting season started...

Rather than jumping right back in at 3LP once the craziness of in-season girls is complete (but before my puppies get here!), I think I may step back and review FTP and TT with her before proceeding.

I teach FTP on the soccer field across from my house (how handy of the school board to put it there for me). I start by identifying the pile, probably about 15-20 feet back--a comfortable toss. I gradually extend the distance on this field back to 20-25 yards. By the end of it I want to dogs to be showing focus on the destination when sitting at my side, and to leave with purpose and momentum when sent. I force from my side, remote and en route, but the vast majority of sends are freebies as pressure-pressure-pressure tends to wear down my dog's attitudes.So the balance I have to watch for is using enough pressure to reinforce the requirement to go, without wearing down the dog's attitude.

Once they are hammering out to the pile on the soccer field, I move it to the field I use for TT. I teach the back pile again and reinforce it at FTP distances ( i like that my FTP baseline corresponds to the far intersection so it builds in casting back from that intersection for later in the process), and then build the line back to full TT distance, also doing a remotes from the near intersection, before I add in a stop and cast en-route to proceed with the TT lessons.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I hope you who are competing with your dogs - HT or FT - are not glossing over this important part of training. I believe that if you don't do a thorough job of FTP that you have not finished force fetch.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

What are the possible consequences of not forcing to pile?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

gdgli said:


> What are the possible consequences of not forcing to pile?


Great question! There are several important consequences, and they start with a trainer heaping expectations of a finished retrieve on a dog that hasn't been trained to perform one. FTP assembles vital parts into a finished product; the fully-trained retrieve. Many a trainer has failed their dog by just giving them a hodge-podge of skills, and then requiring them to perform as if the process were complete.

The fully trained retrieve is efficient and reliable. It is also uniform; the same each time; the dog goes, fetches the first retrieve object he comes to, instantly recalls to the handler, finishes as directed, and delivers on command - all with style. That is because FTP training works dynamically to produce exactly that.

In addition, a dog thoroughly trained through FTP is also finessed in his pressure conditioning so distractions don't divert him, or keep him from finishing the task he was sent to perform.

Pretty important, don't you think?

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

EvanG said:


> *Force to Pile aka FTP*
> 
> As we head into spring we begin to focus on tuning up our now-loose gundogs, and continue Basics on those that halted FF progression last Fall. Force to Pile is where all aspects of basic obedience are assembled together with the elements of force fetch. It might be useful to have a discussion of how you approach FTP.
> 
> ...


Yes, indeed, FTP is an extension of FF; it strengthens the compulsion to make the retrieve. [I may not, however, consider it to the where all aspects of basic obedience are put together with FF, although I suppose it could depend on how one defines basic obedience. But that's not the point of this thread.]

Sterregold's approach is solid, particularly the limited number of stimulus events. Too many nicks/burns will increase the likelihood of developing a bad attitude about retrieving (lose momentum) and of flaring (which is a P.I.T.A. to deal with ... it can become a lifelong issue for some dogs). 

And this is an opportune time to see how your dog is reacting to the number of sends, the number of nicks, nick v. burn, the level of the stimuli (this is a biggie) ... is it high enough or is it too high, etc. Said another way, you must pay careful attention to every movement the dog makes ... i.e., you must read the dog.

To the questions:
Distance to pile - far enough to put in two nicks ... around 60 yards is my best guess. 
Forcing procedures - I prefer forcing from the side and en route. If I see some hints of flaring, I will force remotely.

Questions: 
How do you know that FTP is complete?
Under what circumstances do you revisit FTP once it's completed?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

FTGoldens said:


> To the questions:
> Distance to pile - far enough to put in two nicks ... around 60 yards is my best guess.


I take mine to 100 yards in small increments. I do this because that pile becomes my Back pile for T work.


FTGoldens said:


> Forcing procedures - I prefer forcing from the side and en route. If I see some hints of flaring, I will force remotely.


Me too.


FTGoldens said:


> Questions:
> How do you know that FTP is complete?


I determine that by concurrent sessions in which all its primary functions are uniform and reliable, and by assessing that pressure conditioning is sound.


FTGoldens said:


> Under what circumstances do you revisit FTP once it's completed?


I re-visit FTP all through Basics in land T work & Swim-by. Then, as the dog goes through Transition, pile work continues extensively because many of the drills I run are pile-based. Later on, I return to some of the drills of Transition as maintenance exercises. Many of them are excellent drills to maintain a solid foundation for more advanced skills and skill sets.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I have a question related to this thread. I'm not sure if its completely what you are thinking. I have Lucy almost through land FF. We're on water FF now. We are starting on having her go Back to the pile and heel to my side. Distances are short at 10 or 15'. I have only 2 piles. She's pretty good. But occasionally she'll go to the wrong pile and start to pick up a bumper. I have been walking over and having her drop the bumper. Then pinching her ear walk her over to the correct bumper. She picks it up and I release the ear pinch. I walk back to my original location and she comes and heels. To reinforce, I have her Hold the bumper for 30 seconds. Sometimes she will drop the bumper and I have to have her pick it up again using an ear pinch, then back to Hold. Am I doing it right? Only have her go to the pile 6 times or so and then end the session. She is very tired afterwards and I don't want to wear her out mentally. I don't want to nic her at any point. I've been using the nic only for re-calls.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> I have a question related to this thread. I'm not sure if its completely what you are thinking. I have Lucy almost through land FF.


So, Hold, ear pinch for Fetch, Walking fetch, Force to pile? All of those before water?


Alaska7133 said:


> We're on water FF now.


Water force? Forcing across water to a pile?


Alaska7133 said:


> We are starting on having her go Back to the pile and heel to my side. Distances are short at 10 or 15'. I have only *2 piles*.


Why 2 piles?


Alaska7133 said:


> She's pretty good. But occasionally she'll go to the wrong pile and start to pick up a bumper. I have been walking over and having her drop the bumper. Then pinching her ear walk her over to the correct bumper.


This should be a red flag to you. All these functions are steps of formal Basics. If there is one thing that will throw a wrench into Basics it's turning the exercises into something that is NOT basic. 2 piles instead of one, for example. Do you have a diagram of what you have been doing?


Alaska7133 said:


> She picks it up and I release the ear pinch. I walk back to my original location and she comes and heels. To reinforce, I have her Hold the bumper for 30 seconds. Sometimes she will drop the bumper and I have to have her pick it up again using an ear pinch, then back to Hold. Am I doing it right?


Forgive my bluntness, but "no". I'll share something the late great Rex Carr shared with me one day at C.L. 2, his training grounds. He said "I'd like to have two T shirts printed up, and hand them out as folks come on the property. One would say "Learn not to burn." The other would have just one word on it; "Simplify". What you are doing sounds like it would work far better in a simpler form.


Alaska7133 said:


> Only have her go to the pile 6 times or so and then end the session. She is very tired afterwards and I don't want to wear her out mentally. I don't want to nic her at any point. I've been using the nic only for re-calls.


I'm with you on both points. Too much work in a single session dulls the dog's enthusiasm and that diminishes a teachable attitude. If you have not soundly e-collar conditioned, don't use the collar. Are you following any particular program?

EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'm working with a woman that has trained many dogs since the 60's. She is not a pro and prefers to keep her amateur status. She is breed specific - goldens. She uses Connie Cleveland's methods for training. Connie has also chosen to keep her amateur status. My friend has been active in field trials for many years.

We are through hold, FF on land, we just started force to pile. We haven't done much with water since we didn't have open water until early June. Lucy just learned to swim then. When I say water force, I mean retrieve in the bumpers or birds in the water. Then swim back to me, hold the bird, then come to heel position and hand the bird to me when I ask for it. When she doesn't do exactly what I want I use the ear pinch to put her in the correct position. She wants to drop the bumper when she gets out of the water and shake. We have not retrieved across a body of water to land on the other side to retrieve a bird. Having a bit a trouble finding something like that here in town.

I set up with 2 separate bumpers. I've worked on turning her to each bumper to mark and understanding doubles. We did it when she was very young with treats on bowls. Now that she's bigger we're doing it with bumpers. I had planned on extending the distances. I'm happy to change to just one bumper. I was trying to teach her Back with a whistle sit. 

Thanks for your thoughts. This is obviously my first dog for field work.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Another person there in Anchorage who is very knowledgeable and successful is Howard Niemi, a longtime member of the Alaska Retriever Club, and trainer of several Field Champions. That's a good club, and is right there in your town. Another benefit of getting into that club is grounds (land and water) to train on. I gave a seminar for them a few years back.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Howard is well known here. The woman I train with has been friends with him for many years. Some of the RCA members have a negative reputation. There have been issues at their events. Joanne Hanscom is on the RCA board, I've taken many obedience classes from her. So it's a mixed bag at the RCA. I was steered away from their organization, which is sad that a few bad apples spoil the barrel. By the way my opinions are common knowledge up here and not anything I've seen for myself. Thank you for your thoughts.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

I have a few thoughts about your process. I'm a new field trainer, but I'm a little bit confused by what you are calling "land FF." Are you talking about walking fetch? Are you walking her up to the piles or lining her to them? I think you are really setting her up to be confused. I think about force fetch as "pick up what I am telling you to get" My dog went through the process of grabbing something in my hand to eventually grabbing it from the ground then walking him up to it and telling him fetch. I use an ear pinch ONLY for a FAILURE to retrieve (aka, a refusal). IMO, FTP should not include an ear pinch unless the dog gets to the pile and refuses to pick up the bumper. If I reach for my dogs ear, he knows he better get something in his mouth FAST. You seem to be giving the dog conflicting information that he doesn't have the skills to deal with yet. You are saying: you better retrieve now, but not that one! You are getting ahead of yourself. Your dog, in my opinion, probably doesn't understand what the ear pinch means because you are not being consistent with what you mean when you use it. She may be saying to herself "OK, I thought the ear pinch meant retrieve, but now you are saying don't retrieve." She doesn't understand that you want her get a different one. Casting, not ear pinching, teaches direction. You need to simplify. One pile only. Start at 10 yrds and then move back. FTP should teach GOING, coming, and stopping. 3 handed casting, which you could definitely start doing, introduces direction. But keep the transmitter in your pocket. That should be a fun game.

I appreciate that you are being mentored by someone, but that doesn't mean you should just take their word for all that you do. Research some. Watch videos. Ask questions. Ask yourself and your trainer: does my dog understand what I am correcting him for? Does this make sense? Why are we doing it this way and not another way? I ALWAYS simplify before I force. I would rather err on that side of things than the other. I don't want to force a confused dog.

Also, as an aside to this. I train weekly with Connie Cleveland in the field. We have never done anything like you are describing, and she helped me all the way from ear pinch/FF to where we are now (pattern blinds). I'm not trying to name drop, just giving you an idea of where I am coming from. 

Anyway, just some thoughts. I am in no way an expert, so take this for what it's worth, which may not be a lot. Good luck!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> I'm working with a woman that has trained many dogs since the 60's. She is not a pro and prefers to keep her amateur status. She is breed specific - goldens. She uses Connie Cleveland's methods for training. Connie has also chosen to keep her amateur status. My friend has been active in field trials for many years...... I've worked on turning her to each bumper to mark and understanding doubles. We did it when she was very young with treats on bowls. Now that she's bigger we're doing it with bumpers. I had planned on extending the distances. I'm happy to change to just one bumper. I was trying to teach her Back with a whistle sit.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts. This is obviously my first dog for field work.


Like Marie, I see the diagram, and think I understand your explanation. But the process is foreign to me. I can't quite see the rationale for it, or the logic. What bothers me more is continually having to re-force via ear pinch for what sounds like frequent refusals. That sounds like the first phase (ear pinch) wasn't finished in the first place. But there are other steps in the FF sequence. 

This looks like a miniature Wagon Wheel Lining drill.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Thanks Marie
By the way I really liked your obedience videos you posted the other day. I'm in novice obedience and novice rally this weekend. 

We were lucky enough to have Connie come up last winter. I took her 2 day seminar. Great stuff. I'm open to all ideas from other trainers. I do believe you need to pick a method and stick with it. I've viewed many of Connie's videos on You Tube. It's so nice she's taken the time to create all the videos and post them, it must have taken a lot of time. Especially since she's not making any money from them.

Marie, you're right, I have never seen Connie use the 2 pile method on her videos. My mentor has shown me that method and I'm questioning it because I don't quite understand it. So I guess if I don't, then the dog probably doesn't either. 

The way I've learned FF, or actually my puppy learned, is the same steps you describe. I used the word land to separate it from the actions you use when doing water retrieves. Sorry for my inexperience with the lingo, I didn't mean to confuse the issue.

I do watch other trainer videos, Evan of course, Pat Dolan, and some of the bad trainers that use abusive methods. I watched the abusive methods to know what I never want to do. I only ear pinch when Lucy doesn't pick up the item. She does know when I walk over that she better pick up the item. 

Marie thanks for your thoughts. By the way the person I'm training with hosted Connie in her home last winter and is good friends with Connie. You can ask Connie about her. Her initials are GH. We'd love to see Connie up here agai this winter!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

If you are thinking your dog is confused , and you are seeing lots of refusals, then, yes, it likely has not accomplished what you hoped it would. Evan's _Smartworks_ books and videos, Mike Lardy's _TRT_ videos and Retriever Journal _Training With Mike Lardy_ articles, Cherylon Loveland's _Retriever Puppy Training_ book etc are all based on the work of Rex Carr. They are all systematic and sequential for a reason. Individual trainers make slight modifications in the way different stages are delivered, but they all essentially follow the same process of building a foundation. I own all of them because as a historian by training I am a research geek and I like being comprehensive. I have friends who really like the Fowl Dawgs series and follow it all the way through. The key is though, that you understand what you are doing, and why you are doing it, and where you are going with it next. You do not want your foundation to be patchy and haphazard. And you are not going to get anything comprehensive with short youtube vieos as they are not set within a comprehensive sequence.

Personally, I follow the steps in the order outlined in TRT, but I start puppy stuff with the Loveland book and use the checklists it has during basics (which is way more than force fetch!). Similarly, when I review the TRT videos, I also read the RJ article that corresponds to that step to really reinforce what I should be doing, and what I should be seeing from the dog. So while I am now not entirely following one trainer from start to finish, I am still following a definite system and I also am on FF with my 5th dog and did not do that with my first! I would second Evan's recommendation to check in with Howard--he has been very successful with his dogs for a reason.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> But occasionally she'll go to the wrong pile and start to pick up a bumper. I have been walking over and having her drop the bumper. Then pinching her ear walk her over to the correct bumper. She picks it up and I release the ear pinch. I walk back to my original location and she comes and heels.........
> I don't want to nic her at any point. I've been using the nic only for re-calls.


OK, so here is where you said what I was discussing in my earlier post. She is picking up a bumper. You stop her, take the bumper, and pinch to another pile. Again, she IS picking something up. This is not a refusal. 

FTP, in my understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong), involves taking the correction from an ear pinch to a collar correction (nick). Why don't you want to nick her for FTP? 



Alaska7133 said:


> When she doesn't do exactly what I want I use the ear pinch to put her in the correct position


Why is the ear pinch being used for positioning? 



Alaska7133 said:


> I do watch other trainer videos, Evan of course, Pat Dolan, and some of the bad trainers that use abusive methods. I watched the abusive methods to know what I never want to do.


Video clips are good, but I'm more talking about watching/reading whole systems of training, from start to finish. I love Shelly's thoughts on this (emphasis mine): 



sterregold said:


> The key is though, that *you understand what you are doing, and why you are doing it, and where you are going with it next* You do not want your foundation to be patchy and haphazard. And you are not going to get anything comprehensive with short youtube videos as they are not set within a comprehensive sequence.


Alaska, please don't take these comments as harsh criticism. I'm learning along with everyone else.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Marie,
Sorry I'm getting everything jumbled up. When Lucy goes to the wrong pile, I had her drop the bumper and pinch her over to the correct bumper. I invented this on my own since I didn't know how to correct her for going to the wrong bumper. I was stumped. She actually looked at me then looked at the correct bumper, started toward it, then turned and went to the incorrect bumper. I thought that needed a correction. I didn't know how else to approach it.

As for nic under any other reason except re-call, she hasn't been trained for other ways. Until then I'm avoiding it. My mentor has been working with me on the e-collar and we haven't advanced into other reasons to nic. Lucy fully understands the re-call nic.

Incidentally we NQ'd on novice rally and beginner novice obedience today. Lucy was fine until we went into the ring, then she totally forgot she had to listen to me. I guess that can happen with a 13 month old pup. So back in the ring tomorrow! This time I hope she doesn't just want to say hello to the judge.

I do have Connie's book and tapes. I'll review them again. Sometimes between the time you read something and the time you need it, it's fallen out of your head.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> Sorry I'm getting everything jumbled up. When Lucy goes to the wrong pile, I had her drop the bumper and pinch her over to the correct bumper. I invented this on my own since I didn't know how to correct her for going to the wrong bumper. I was stumped. She actually looked at me then looked at the correct bumper, started toward it, then turned and went to the incorrect bumper. I thought that needed a correction. I didn't know how else to approach it.


For me, I don't usually have a "correction" for getting the wrong bumper. Completing the retrieve should be the "reward," so stopping her from retrieving the incorrect bumper is somewhat a correction. I stop Riot, call him back, and resend. If he makes another mistake, I stop, call, back, and simplify (usually moving up closer to the pile I want him to go to). If you are pinching her from one pile to the other, she isn't getting the idea of direction because you aren't resending from the same direction you sent her. Does this make any sense? 

Now, I'm not there training with you, but I don't think looking at the correct one then going to the wrong one is a "refusal." I think she is confused.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I think you're right, I should call her back and re-send, rather than pinch her to the correct pile. It's funny she only does it on land. She goes to the correct bumper when she's in the water. Whichever order I send her. She never switches and she never refuses. But she doesn't have that classic flying leap yet.


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