# Puppy socialization vs. parvo prevention



## puppydogs (Dec 6, 2010)

So I was reading up on the seriousness of Parvo and taking *really* strong measures not to let the pup outside before the age of 4 mos (before all shots)..... my question is how have you folks been able to socialize your pup at that critical age also since they need to be exposed to people/dogs/random things?

I had a friend that took it so seriously, the pup didn't touch the ground for those critical months except to relieve herself . They took the pup out..just didnt let people touch them or put her on the ground. Was curious how others handle this time frame.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I definitely come down on the socialization side.


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## County JR (Sep 26, 2010)

Your pup is protected against parvo before he's had all his shots, as long as it's mother is healthy and vaccinated.


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## julliams (Oct 27, 2010)

I am no expert on this but...

My understanding is that parvo lives in soil for up to 9 months so you want to stay away from areas that are frequented by dogs such as public parks. I believe it does not live in concrete so it would seem that it would be ok to walk along a sidewalk.

The other concern is the pup meeting other dogs who we don't know are up to date with their vaccinations. Our pup met the dogs in our family right away at around 10 weeks old. She had only had one vaccination at that stage.

Our vets have told us not to take her outside the property until she is 18 weeks old (two weeks after the last shot). In the same breath they have told us that they do not come across parvo more than once a year and in those cases the pups have gotten it from an area far west of where I live, where they see parvo on a weekly basis.

Our breeder says that whilst she has pups she does not volunteer at the local pound because diseases can be brought home via humans and given to dogs. She has had that happen to her own adult dogs in the past (kennel cough I believe).

It becomes so "scary" that it seems safer to just not take them anywhere but I think this would be detrimental to their socialisation.

We take Zali to people's houses who have dogs that have up to date vaccinations. I have taken her to the shops but she is 10 kg now and too heavy for me to carry for any length of time. Plus it means that I can't actually go into the shop anyway, so... We also walk our pup down the centre of our road which is very quiet. We have been told that walking on hard surfaces is no good for growing bones.

So I feel like everywhere I turn I am doing something wrong. 

Phone a couple of vets in your area and find out the amount of cases they see each week or month or year. That would be a good place to start.

Right now I feel like I'm wishing time away because she is 14 weeks today and we still have a month before I'm officially allowed to take her out.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi i got Shelley at 14 weeks old she wasn't properly socialized so really needed to be taken out. She wasn't even use to a collar or lead and when i put one of her for the first time she peed herself. I let her settle in for a few days getting use to the collar and lead. I then took her down town to get socialized with humans. I made the big mistake i tied her up outside a shop went in to get a drink. She was almost stolen that day, If i took any longer in the shop she would have been gone. As i was walking out i said hey what you doing,they made out that she got loose but i knew she couldn't. They slipped her lend under a chair which was on a step, So before i had a chance Shelley took off down the road really scared, She almost got hit by a car. Thank god a lovely man caught her for me. Well i had to go buy her a new lead cause she peed and pooed on the lead that i was using. Point of this story is never leave your dog no matter the age of the dog yied up. Ever since then Shelley has been very wary of most people. She will go up to people only if i say ok she needs couragement from me. People can call her name and still she won't go to them.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have a multiple dog household which helps tremendously, but I also get my pups into classes at places I trust - small classes in non-commercial places. My obedience mentor has lessons in her barn and fields. A club I belong to that is kept clean etc.

I do not do regular parks, public areas etc until their puppy shots are complete. I also no longer do day-care or 'puppy' classes - I used to but found my dogs are far better off without either. Petco, parks, malls etc are started up once the puppy shots have been completed.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

We kept our dogs at home until they had their second shot. Then in talking with my vet he said you can go places you "trust". Not dog parks, Petsmart or places like that. So we started taking our pups to our training facility. It requests people to vaccinate their dogs, but does not require proof BUT the people who come regularly are true dog people who take proper care of their dogs. So until we did our last round of shots, we did not go anywhere else. 

Now parvo could be transported from a place and brought home on my adult dogs. No I did not take any extra precautions there. Yes parvo is a BAD scene, but prior to Quinn our first few hours with our pups was a trip to Petsmart and they were younger. Quinn and Gabby were the only pups I have gotten at 8 weeks. The others were all 6 weeks. Not smart in hindsight but they did just fine. 

To a degree...I believe exposure increases immune systems. I believe it in children, and I do in dogs. Not necessarily parvo, but the more they are exposed to normal bacteria etc, the more their bodies will build an immunity to fight things.


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## County JR (Sep 26, 2010)

I started socializing my dog when he was 7.5 weeks old. I would never EVER keep him inside until his second shot was in effect (14 weeks old). I went by the rule of 12, which said that he should experiences everything on the following list before he's 12 weeks old.


12 different surfaces (like hardwood floor, concrete, grass, snow, mud, water etc.)

Play with 12 different toys

Experience 12 different environments (home, park, bus, car, another house, basement, train station etc.)

Meet at least 12 new people (kids, adults, old people, foreign people, people in a wheel chair, people on bikes etc.)

Hear at least 12 different sounds

Experience at least 12 different moving objects (car, bicycle, people running, frisbee, ball etc.)

Get 12 different challenges (stairs, kong, terrain etc.)

Get handled by every family member at least 12 times a week

Eat out of 12 different bowls/cups and/or in different situations

Eat in 12 different locations

Be alone 5 - 45 minutes 12 times a week

Wear a leash at least 12 times in at least 12 different locations

My dog is now nearly 6 months old and has no behavioral problems, no health problems, no known fears. He doesn't bite, bark or dominate. He's housebroken, doesn't need a crate for anything (I don't even own a crate), he can walk with or without a leash and he never gets punished.

Now I know that we have mostly healthy dogs here in Norway, so I don't know if I could do it in the US. Here the recommendation, both from vets and trainers, generally is that socializing is worth the risk of infection.


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## Eleanor's Mom (Nov 6, 2009)

My vet recommended letting Eleanor play with other dogs that I knew who were vaccinated and good with puppies. So we would have playdates at our houses in our yards. I did not take Eleanor to places where large numbers of dogs congregate or walk until she had finished all of her shots.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

In my opinion socialization is very important, but not worth the risk of having your puppy die. The biggest risk is other unvaccinated or infected dogs, so avoiding places they frequent like petsmart and dog parks is in his/her best interests. I also moved to the other side of the street when people would walk toward me with their dog. I always yelled a courteous "Sorry he's not done his vaccinations" and wave. 

Socializing him with "safe" dogs or in safe area's is ideal. Avoid any feces or places dogs urinate frequently like the plague. I have a group of friends that have vaccinated and well cared for dogs and arranged playdates with them.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Parvo is somewhat a regional and socioeconomic issue... in almost 25 years as a veterinarian here in Maine, I have maybe treated 3 dogs for parvo. My husband who works as a vet in a more rural town has treated more. I take my own dogs to puppy classes at 8 weeks of age and they also came to work with me from 8 weeks of age on. I've had more trouble with kennel cough than anything else. But the previous posters are accurate about bringing the pup to safe places.... and also accurate that if the mom had good antibodies, the pups will, too.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My vet pushed the socialization, as long as I stayed out of the pet stores and dog parks.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

My experience is the same as Mary's. My pups come to work with me at the clinic from day one, the go to dog shows as young pups (I carry them if they are small enough, but walk when they are too big to be carried).

The average dog's life is more at risk from behavior problems than from parvo. Socialization and early puppy training are the best defenses against behavior issues. Of course be smart about the socialization (no PetSmart, dog parks, etc.), but don't wait until the puppy is 4 months plus to start.


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## Charlie06 (Feb 10, 2007)

I am paying the price for being overly protective. I didn't take my guys for walks or out of our yard until their last set of shots. Charlie was very scared of others dogs and people for the longest time. Finally when he was about 2 he started trusting people and other dogs. Howie is 2 1/2 and is terrified of people and other dogs. He gets extremely nervous when he sees them(barks and growls) so now we have to avoid people and dogs, and it is all my fault for not properly socializing him. I thought I was protecting him as a puppy but I was actually doing more harm. He is getting a little better. I know some people will probably disagree with what I'm doing but we are taking a muzzle along on walks and when we aproach a dog in a fence that he usually barks and growls at we put the muzzle on. He then walks over to the dog and sniffs him and wags his tail and acts all pproud of himself. We then take off the muzzle and PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE. I know there are people who totally disagree with a muzzle but I am not willing to take the chance of him biting someone.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

County JR said:


> Your pup is protected against parvo before he's had all his shots, as long as it's mother is healthy and vaccinated.


I don't think this is entirely true...otherwise no puppy from a vaccinated mother would ever get parvo/distemper/etc and it would be completely unnecessary to vaccinate puppies. It just concerns me that someone to read that and think their puppy is protected without vaccinations. 

Perhaps one of the veterinarians who already responded in this thread can elaborate/explain?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The point of the series of puppy vaccines is to cover that pup at the time the maternal antibodies are gone from the puppy's system. The maternal antibodies can linger in the pup until about 16 weeks of age. Technically if the pup's dam had good antibodies, they have been passed onto the puppy until some point later(up to 4 months of age). Of course, you need to vaccinate puppies.... Does this make sense?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Statistically, more dogs die due to euthanasia (from being relinquished to a shelter, or put down by request) because of behavior problems than dogs who die b/c they contracted a disease that proved deadly.

Socialization is soooo important.

Be smart about where you go (no dog parks or sketchy neighborhood parks -- or pet stores b/c all dogs tend to go there) and make sure pup has at least the first set of shots.

My own pup came to me at 7 weeks and the next day he was in the car on adventures to shopping centers, running errands, etc. Seven years later, he's pretty awesome.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BTW - there are some breeders (I personally have a friend who is a Weim breeder) who don't do puppy shots at all based on the idea that immunity is transferred to the pups via the mom. She's bred countless litters of healthy pups this way.

That's a little too extreme for me - so I do puppy shots, a 12-month booster and then titer from there on out.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> The point of the series of puppy vaccines is to cover that pup at the time the maternal antibodies are gone from the puppy's system. The maternal antibodies can linger in the pup until about 16 weeks of age. Technically if the pup's dam had good antibodies, they have been passed onto the puppy until some point later(up to 4 months of age). Of course, you need to vaccinate puppies.... Does this make sense?


Thanks, I didn't want to attempt to explain that via "telephone" from our veterinarian.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> The point of the series of puppy vaccines is to cover that pup at the time the maternal antibodies are gone from the puppy's system. The maternal antibodies can linger in the pup until about 16 weeks of age. Technically if the pup's dam had good antibodies, they have been passed onto the puppy until some point later(up to 4 months of age). Of course, you need to vaccinate puppies.... Does this make sense?


Plus sometimes the exposure dose is overwhelming (more than the antibioties can handle all at once). So even if the pup has antibioties (maternal or their own), they can sometimes *still* get infected if the exposure is great enough.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't like parvo being referred to as regional and socio economic. My old vet is very expensive and considered one of the best vets in our city and he has seen parvo in puppies who had vacs up to 14 weeks.

My dogs have all been well socialized with friends and relatives' dogs who are vaccinated but I avoid sidewalks, dogparks, pet stores (like Petsmart and Petco) and we didn't start puppy classes till 16 weeks. My dogs have all been great obedience trained dogs as well. Since I believe in lots of socializaton and safety equally, I think there are ways to work it out and not put your puppy at risk.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I agree Deb. Such a serious disease to take any chances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I've always thought that I was a very careful and cautious dog owner.... but... 

We brought Jacks home when he was 7.5 weeks old. We took him to the vet the next day for his first checkup and to get his vaccination schedule into the computer and set up. The people at the vet all know our family and dogs and came out to see him. He had his own little fan club going on there. 

We didn't take him for any walks for the next 2 weeks, but that was because it was winter and I was concerned about exercising a young puppy. He did spend a LOT of time every day playing in our yard and woods with our two other dogs. 

We visited Petsmart every Saturday after those first 2 weeks (so he was 10 weeks old) to socialize him and to show him off. This was important to me because I already had one shy guy and I wanted to make sure I didn't make the same mistakes. I wanted him used to a lot of people being around, especially little kids, and at least seeing other dogs (including barking dogs). I'd carry him if other dogs were around, mainly because he was so little and guileless and I didn't want him getting hurt by some crazy dog. 

I was supposed to get him into puppy classes when he was 12 weeks old (Danny started when he was 10 weeks old), but our trainer cancelled on us so we had to wait for another place until he was pushing 20 weeks old. Which of course made it all the more important that I get the little guy out everywhere, including our barn (he went nose to nose with my horse when he was about 10 weeks old). 

Actual walks didn't start happening until he was about 5 months old and started needing more exercise than just the romps in the yard. And even there he was going no further than up the street and back. And we worked that up to a half mile and kept walks that short until he was over a year old. <- This was a big deal because I was terrified of him developing elbow dysplasia because of overexertion or injury. 

When it comes to illnesses - that didn't happen until he was 6 months old. And that was probably some mild kind of variety of kennel cough (he _was_ vaccinated). He had reverse sneezing for a week. 

Anyway...

I think socialization is VERY important. But you do need a level of caution and common sense. No dog parks. No kennels. No daycares. No dog classes unless you know all of the puppies are as up to date as possible on their vaccinations.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am not trying to pick a fight, Debles, but I have worked full time thru children and puppies and have only rarely seen parvo. And all of the cases were dogs with stressed upbringings.. ie shelter dogs, foreign dogs, etc. My husband who has seen more "farm dogs"(the farm dogs are the every 3 years rabies shot whether they need it or not) has seen more. He has also seen way more heartworm positive dogs than I have ever seen. Since all dogs in our house after Golden #3, have been home breds, they have come to work with me at 8 weeks, they go to soccer/lacrosse games, the farmer's market, you name it. I have never had an issue with parvo in my dogs, just kennel cough as I mentioned before. And it IS regional, it survives longer in warmer climates. And it IS socioeconomic, because, if you vaccinate properly it will be a rare occurrence OTHERWISE how can you explain what I have seen in almost 25 years as a veterinarian?
In the "old days" we used to vaccinate for distemper/parvo every year and I truly wonder how that affects the future immunity in our pups?


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

My puppy class trainer and the vet/breeder/service dog trainer who sent us to her called puppy classes vaccinations for socialization. She disinfected the floor before the classes, made sure all puppies were up to date on shots, etc. She said not to take them to the dog park or pet store (where who knows how many sick dogs could have been) or anyplace where a lot of unknown dogs had been.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

We had a puppy (admittedly over 20 years ago) who died from distemper. He was a shelter pup, so his background was unknown, but the whole litter ended up with it and none survived. I think that's why I'm a bit more paranoid....it's not likely it'll happen but the results are so catastrophic that I didn't really take chances with Jack or Chloe. And probably won't with future puppies either.

But we did have them around as many "safe" dogs as possible as young pups. And I relaxed a bit with Chloe and took her to shows after her second round of shots since she had her second shots at 15 weeks (due to being treated for a UTI).


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

Our breeder had puppy class for six weeks after our nine week old puppy came home. She did this because only dogs raised by her could attend and the socialization has been fantastic. 

Now that Nugget is 16 weeks and has completed his shots we will venture beyond our home and the breeder's home. Although there are no guarantees in life I do feel confident that we have done the best that we could for Nugget.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

This is the AVSAB (American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior) position statement on puppy socialization. This was written by the vets who --specialize-- in behavior. Everyone on here should read. Everyone with puppies should discuss this with their breeders/vets.
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/puppy socialization.pdf

The 8-12 week stage is the critical/primary/varied name period. It's slightly flexible, some breeds tend to have a longer/shorter period, and some individuals have variation too. We can chemically extend this period slightly if we need to (in the case of a very shy/anxious puppy).

So, the learning that happens now, can't completely be made up for later. Good and bad. This stage is REALLY important for your puppy to be meeting all kinds of people, all kinds of sounds, all kinds of surfaces, all kinds of foods, all kinds of experiences, all kinds of smells, all kinds of sights. And all kinds of animals and other things. BUT the KEY is that your puppy has to have ---good-- associations. Neutral is not sufficient.

A good puppy class instructor can recognize abnormal behaviors and help you get things changed around and/or refer you to the nearest appropriate professional. I don't teach puppy classes, but I watch on occasion. The facility I work at -regularly- sees abnormal puppies come in. IF the owners get the right help, they often leave puppy class as almost normal dogs. IF the owners say "he's still young" "We'll wait and see what happens." "Money is tight...we don't really want to see the other professional".... they're more likely to eventually still need a LOT more help, after experiencing a LOT of frustration (and spending a lot more money). Seriously, it makes such such such a huge difference to be addressing these issues early on. 

And I know I emphasize that on here enough, with my first two dogs (now 10 and 7 years old!), as puppies they exhibited behaviors that should have been addressed differently than just "more training, more exercise, more punishment." I would have saved so much time and money, and most importantly, stress to me AND the dogs if the problems had been addressed right away. And why weren't they? The instructors of the puppy classes weren't qualified/experienced in behavior to recognize the signs of very abnormal behaviors.

Yes parvo is a risk, yes you need to be cautious. Be aware of how common it is in your area and follow the tips about what areas to avoid... Find a puppy class that has a VERY qualified instructor. Find a place that does appropriate sanitation. Ask what cleaners they use, how often they clean, and look up the products. 

My summary... Waiting until vaccinations is too late. You miss the best opportunities for learning, the biggest impact you can have on your dog.


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## puppydogs (Dec 6, 2010)

Hi All,...I agree about the socialization part. That's why I ask how everyone was able to do it...

So am I being too paranoid of the "safe" dogs carrying the parvo since they've been able to run around parks and other dogs? I was thinking they can carry that and pass it on to others without being affected. I'm so worried, I can even picture the parvo carried on "safe" dog owners shoes and clothes since they go to the dog parks too!


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

Over here we have the first vaccination at 8 weeks and another at 12. 

After the first shot, which was done by the breeder for Diesel and the day after coming home for Willow, I took them lots of places. We went to people's houses and had vaccinated dogs come round to play. I took them to the supermarket where I work and stood outside holding them so people would come and say hello. 

Willow started puppy class at 12 weeks.


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