# Let's Talk About Puppy Sit-Stays



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

We're having some issues with sit/down stays. Gibbs is going on 6 months, so we should be getting better at this... not worse. I know that we should build duration and then move on to distance. That's what we've been trying to do, but we need so help so that we can get better.

We train every day...every meal plus more. He's very food motivated so it's great that I can use kibble and other high value treats to keep him interested. I vary my treats sometimes, not all the time.

The Mechanics...

At puppy class we've learned to show our outward facing palm and treat....wash, rinse, repeat until the dog understands if I don't move, I get rewarded. We've done that until we were blue in the face. Moved on to increasing duration, not distance. Gibbs will pop up when I'm in motion to give him the treat. He wants it that badly. Do I put a leash on him and step on it to keep him down? I've tried that a few times but it didn't seem effective. :curtain: One trainer said that I need to hold out longer to treat, but if I'm struggling to keep him in a down, shouldn't I be rewarding more frequently?

At class, we were told not to repeat "stay" but we can praise "good stay" when we treat. Do I keep showing my palm to signal "stay" throughout our stay? 

Ok... thanks in advance for your wisdom...I need it!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

We never learned stay in a class (we missed that class) but i just kept working on it with Joey every time i would go upstairs, sort of saying the word stay and then comming back down and saying good boy. To be honest when i went to go and actually teach him it, he seemed to already know it. All i had to really do was in force the stay and in force the distance. Now he CAN go longer distances, we are actually working on him staying in a stay without seeing me (like if i go behind a wall)


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## Jr29 (Nov 8, 2010)

im looking for help with this as well, so will keep an eye here if you dont mind my spying . bailey has the sit and down parts figured out, its the stay part im having a problem with - same as Gibbs, Bailey will pop as i move to treat :doh:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It's good to set the pup up to succeed by not increasing the duration of the stays or distractions around the pup until he is rock solid. The release word (Okay, Break, Free) is an essential part of the stay, and good timing is needed with that so the dog understands there is a distinct end to the stay. Try taking small steps "around the clock", staying close to the pup. Take a step, step back, then say OKAY and treat/celebrate.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^ I agree with Jill.  

I shouldn't give advice because my dog has his seperation anxiety issues in class, but the best I can say is keep the stays short and close until your dog is rock solid. And you might find that your dog becomes rock solid at home or in a low distraction/stress area and is still iffy in class. That's fine. The point is you want every stay to be successful. That's how they learn.

Keeping the leash on to enforce down stays - I found this to be kinda useless, mainly because a leash does not stop the dog's butt from popping up. 

Stopping the dog from springing up before he gets released, then you will repeat the "stay" command as you return and count to ten seconds before you bend over and release him. 

And with me, I release my guy by both touching his back and saying "OK". 

If your dog is springing up because he's very food driven and knows you have treats in your pocket that you give him when he jumps up, then you might have to start practicing stays without any treats on you.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

1) I NEVER EVER EVER say "good x". When my dog hears the cue word I want him to respond. When people say this to my dogs they will down a little more or push their back ends to the ground harder... Dogs don't have enough concept of english syntax to understand "good sit/down/stay/etc." 

2) I teach stay differently...duration last (usually...).

Have your puppy sit in front of you. Take a small step to the side. Literally 2". If your puppy is still, click/mark when your second foot hits the ground.

Then feed the treat. The treat should be in a pocket/pouch/table or behind your back in your hand. ALWAYS feed the treat with "chin tucked, head straight". If you feed too far forward or ot the side, your puppy will stretch to get it and that's no helpful for staying.....

And when your puppy is staying well... add in more steps OR bigger steps OR arm movement...a tiny bit at a time.. I'll find a video when I get home later today. 

During the initial stages, you should be getting in about 20 reps per minute, at least. That changes when you get further away/bigger steps. 

Most people can do dances by week 2-3. I want to give out prizes.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, another perspective. Maybe ditch the treats. Instead use your voice and hands to pet and praise him. Food may be too much and you can't take it in the ring so it would be nice if he doesn't need food in the first place!

But if you want to keep using food I would do as others suggested and keep your criteria low. Also, I would hide the food rather than hold it out and time yourself. Scout has always had really nice stays and they came in handy when I wanted to do such things as sweep the floor without having a tiny terror at my feet chewing on my broom  I did use food a little bit to increase duration but no longer do so. I had a stop watch and would put her on sit-stay while I ate dinner. For a week or two it was 10 secs, then 20 secs, etc. I built it up VERY slowly so that when we got up to five-six minutes it wasn't a big deal.

Another idea too is to get him a box or something so that it is inconvenient for him to move (ie. he would step off the box).


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't use food for stays because of that same reason. 

Start out slow, build it slowly - you are FAR better off having a solid stay for ten seconds with you a foot away than you are to have a sorta stay with you across the room where they're likely to break half the time. Once they learn they can get up and fart around or come to you you have a lot more training to retrain the whole thing.

I also use a touch release, and make that the game - don't move till I touch, then sometimes quickly poke them and play or make it drag out while their brains smoke. But I don't get them too hyped up either, or make a big deal of it. Well done, good stay, now let's do it again sort of thing. I want them to be relaxed in the ring and not thinking there's a party they're missing.

I actually got a lot of comments for my border collie's down stays in open, he'd lay flat on his side and sleep through the whole thing. The rest of the dogs were usually looking around, some worried, some calm, then he was close to snoring. I'd return, release him and usually he'd stay put till his collar was back on. But, he never broke that stay!

Lana


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Wow! Awesome advice. I expected nothing less.... THANK YOU!

I haven't really increased distance at all.... our trainers suggested duration first. I'll start doing distance first beginning at lunch. I do have a release word, but I will try touching him to release instead. Gibbs waits for his meals. He knows palm out and wait until he is released. I have a release hand signal for that. I guess I should have something different for stay to differentiate the two. I think that there is some confusion for him there.

Food or no food... I'll have to see if that works better for us. Food might just be too much of a distraction. We practice in low distraction areas, our home, our backyard, the park that no one frequents. I usually have the food in a treat pouch. Some of it is in my hand behind my back. The other hand has a clicker. I vary which hand gives the treat so he doesn't anticipate as much where the food is coming from.

Some clarification please...

When I build up to stepping away 2-3 feet, I will click/reward him and release or do I reward him and step away again and continue and release after a few repetitions?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> When I build up to stepping away 2-3 feet, I will click/reward him and release or do I reward him and step away again and continue and release after a few repetitions?


You can do both. 

One important thing - if you are using a clicker and food, NEVER reward from front. Because you do not want your dog anticipating a reward when you are returning to him. You want him to wait until you circle him and stand at least twenty seconds in heel position before you tell him "good stay" (or click) and treat. Just make sure your dog knows that "CLICK" sound is not the same as a "release". 

If you are going back out, you repeat stay+hand signal and step out. 

Your dog shouldl know that he may only break position when you release him (again, I use verbal and touch release). 

And I DO say "Good Stay". I wouldn't be chanting it throughout the stay, but it does mark the good behavior.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yeah if you want to use food don't only use it to release the stay--give him the treats while he is staying and expect more. As Megora said if you use a clicker you don't want click to mean done. You just want it to mean correct.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

When I train stay, I always go up and reinforce the dog in position. IF he gets up after the click, I hold the treat where his head would have been (..but don't ask for a sit...he earned the treat). Ideally the dog figures out it's more efficient to stay in place and the food will always come to him. If your dog is getting up frequently... do easier reps until he is 'sticky' to the ground.

Distance and distraction training is WAY easier and more fun than duration!

I have NOT found it a problem to reinforce in front of the dog at the early stages. If we go all around the dog to feed, there is too much time between teh click and treat. AND it's a separate piece of criteria. The order we typically use is:

-Work up to 3-5 steps in any direction
- Handler spin in a circle
-Handler walk around dog
- Handler sit on floor/chair
- Handler move objects on a table/chair/floor
- Work up to 10 steps away
And then duration.

Variations for some dogs are hand waving, leg waving (for those puppies that latch onto pants!), people moving/running past, dogs moving past, toys and food thrown, etc...

For the most part, the higher the value of the food the stronger the behavior (because the dog REALLY wants to work for it!). 

In my manners classes...EVERYONE likes to call their dogs out of a stay (like an obed recall). And I dont' want to stop them from doing things they like.... but we do talk about how it doesn't really help their recall in the 'real life' situations and how it has the potential for deteriorating the stay.

Here's someone back chaining a stay. Cueing the release ONLY if the dog stayed and then reinforcing the release with food.
http://www.youtube.com/user/thistlemiss#p/c/590FED9E65E8D32E/4/sy3a58Nz_gA


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm trying some of the comments made here.... and we've made a lot of headway in the last 2 days. Thanks!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I feel as if I have been studying for my Masters Degree in Stay Training these last couple of years, so here are some techniques that I have found helpful:

I do not use a "stay" command or signal at all. If I tell my dog to sit, I expect him to sit until released. Same with down or stand.

I used food to teach how to get into the position, but not how to hold the position. So I used food to teach the dog how to get into the down, but after that the food is completely gone from stay training. In my house stays are serious business and you do them because you're supposed to, not because you want a treat.

I would not worry about too much duration at this point. At six months I think 20 seconds of holding a position is more than enough. He's still a baby.


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