# Seger Leg Spasms



## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Poor Seger. I have no advice but I hope your vet is able to get to the bottom of it soon.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

I am sorry Seger is having problems. I really don't have a clue. My 1st thought was a possible neurological disorder or perhaps some form of epilepsy. Perhaps other members here might have some insight. I hope you don't mind me posting your videos, there is quite a difference between the way he acts on grass (1st one) vs hard surfaces. Never seen anything like it and your right, the 2nd video isn't easy to watch, poor guy. I hope you find the answer for your boy.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm so sorry your poor Seger is going through this. He defintely seems worse on pavement, but the circling seems to continue somewhat even in the grass, but much less prominent. Agreeing with Golden Camoer it seems like it could be a neurological disorder. How is he in the house? Besides the low thyroid, did the vet find anything else? I would try a different vet. I'd like to say a neurologist, but it might not even be that, so which specialist would be too hard to determine. Did you try taking him to a veterinary college, or a larger facility? I will keep Seger and your family in my thoughts. I hope you get to the bottom of things soon. Please please keep us posted.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you for looking at the videos and for your comments.
GoldenCamper - no problem posting the videos. I hope if more people see them someone will recognize it. I put 7 videos on YouTube hoping to give a very clear picture of the issue.
Jax's Mom - Seger only does this outside on pavement or cement. He is fine in the house on the rugs and laminate. Our vet is going to share the videos with her network of peers including those at Guelph Veterinary School here in Ontario. She was thinking either orthopedic or neurological. Hard to believe it is anything structural/bone/joint related as he runs like the wind, he sails off of the stairs at the cottage, he bounds up and down the hills, stands up on hind legs when he plays etc. 
We are doing the 8-week trial with Thyroid meds in the event this is what is causing it. In some of my reading I have found that spasms and abnormal erratic movements of the hind legs, and seeming weakness of the rear end can be a symptom of hypothyroidism.
I am crossing my fingers it is something that simple.
We have also talked about the possibility of a tumor on his spinal column and the need for an MRI if we rule out the thyroid...I'm not there yet in my mind. 
Looking forward to hearing other comments.
Maybe a vet on the Forum might have some ideas.
Thanks for your concern and commments.
Carol


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It actually looks really behavioral when you compare the two pictures, like the roughness of the concrete makes him feel like something is getting stuck on his feet. Is he really truly normal on grass? If he's also fine on laminate, it really makes me feel like it's the texture of the concrete and pavement which is freaking him out.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Carol,

I would send the results of the bloodwork to Dr Jean Dodds. She is the leading authority on thyroid issues for goldens. And I would send the clips of what is going on with Seger. She may have some answers for you. http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/HEMOPET.HTM

Also I would look at this website. It might have some answers for you or give you ideas to do http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/

I did watch some of the videos and to me it does look neurological to me.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

TippyKayak - "behavioral' is an interesting observation. This is only on hard, rough type of ground which does seem to "freak" him out!.
BeauShel - thank you for the links. I have spent the past hour or so surfing through the articles. I have sent some background info, Seger's Thyroid panel results, and the YouTube Video clip link to Dr Dodds. Thank you for that suggestion. I have my fingers crossed. Carol


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I looked at the video clip of Seger on the grass a couple more times, and wonder if he is really moving on it normally. Compared to his brother, he moves his hind quarters quite differently. He does alot of pouncing and bunny pops. Also, toward the very end of the clip he did circle, similar to when hes on the pavement. The other thing that is perplexing, in the clip where he is on the pavement, Seger is so close to the grass, why wouldnt he just step onto it rather than stay on the pavement and move in circles. To be honest, it is the circlling that bothers me just as much as the "spasms". I wonder if you have a video clip of him in the house, or another of him in the grass walking or running, not necessarily playing with his brother. 

I really hope your vet can get to the bottom of this or that someone else mighthave some suggestions for you. Your Seger is in my thoughts...


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Seger*

Seger

I am NO EXPERT, but it sounds behavioral to me. Could be both thyroid and behavioral.
It seems here is something about the pavement, cement, that scares him.

Best Friends in Kanab, UT, had a dog on one of their Dogtown Episodes, that was terrified to walk on any floor, but would walk on carpet, so they had to keep putting one throw rug, after another throw rug, after another, so he could use these rugs to get into the room. Took lots of work and practice but then he was fine. If you want to email Best Friends or call them, perhaps they can share this DogTown Segment with you.
http://www.bestfriends.org/aboutus/staffdepartments/index.cfm


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## zephyr (Sep 29, 2009)

I am so sorry your boy is going through this! I'm happy to see him playing with this brother  but he is obviously in some kind of distress on the hard surfaces  I hope you figure it out, PLEASE keep us posted, he is such a sweet boy!!

I am just throwing this out there (I am NOT a doctor or vet!), but when I watched the videos I was struck by how much his circling and leg kicks reminded me of an off-balance person, especially his occasional 'butt drops'... where he almost looks like he is trying to stabilize himself on an unstable surface. This makes me think there could be a vestibular system or _balance_ component, even if it is on the neurological side... e.g., walking on a hard surface triggers a different sensation which somehow impacts his sense of balance. Also that might explain why he doesn't just try to walk over to the grass, it's not that he 'doesn't like the feeling' of the cement, he just suddenly feels like the world is moving (or at least from his back end!)... Although that doesn't really explain why he would be fine inside the house on hard surfaces  perhaps the "cold" of the cement also affects him...?

Here is a quote from a neurological professor researching human vestibular/motor connections, their website is http://www.sph.umd.edu/KNES/faculty/jjeka/johns_pages/research_projects_overview.htm
*"Deficits in one sensory system can also affect how intact sensory systems contribute to postural control. For example, patients without vestibular function commonly relate no difficulty walking on hard support surfaces, but report discomfort walking on "spongy" surfaces (e.g., grass) that disrupt the processing of sensory information at the feet." (~John Jeka)*
Yes it's the _opposite_ pattern of Seger's issues, but you never know...?

I wish you the best of luck!!! I hope you find out what is troubling Seger!!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The reason I think it's behavioral and not (necessarily) neurological is that the OP is reporting that the dog is 100% normal on smooth, hard surfaces and all other non-pavement, non-concrete surfaces. Also, watching the video, it looks almost as if the dog is experiencing the sensation of something unpleasant sticking to or damaging the pad (even though that's not happening). It's like he thinks he's walking on prickers.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Do you see any correlation to his activities or excitement level/intensity when on pavement or concrete...?
Example...does he primarily 'play wrestle' on those surfaces?
Could his emotional state be triggering a neurological response?


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> It actually looks really behavioral when you compare the two pictures, like the roughness of the concrete makes him feel like something is getting stuck on his feet. Is he really truly normal on grass? If he's also fine on laminate, it really makes me feel like it's the texture of the concrete and pavement which is freaking him out.


I was thinking exactly the same thing. I don't see how it could be anything other than this, seeing as how he is completely fine on any other surface. If it was a neurological disorder, then it wouldn't express itself ONLY when he was on a specific surface.... would it?

You say you have booties for him... does he do this on pavement when he's wearing his booties?

ETA: I watched him play in the grass w/his brother, and it does seem like he still has a little trouble with his rear legs, so it very well could be a physical or neurological issue.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

If one is having neurological issues, then it would not be unusual to have unusual reactions to textural differences as well as proprioceptive differences (feedback from surface to body). Also, the cerebellum is responsible for the vestibular system (balance and coordination). It could also be something as simple as something in his ear canals that would cause balance and vestibular problems, but it seems more of a poor muscular control/muscle coordination thing. (Again, I'm not a vet)


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Here's a quote from the original post:
"We have been putting boots on him year round to take him out for walks for more than a year now."

Does he walk normally on the concrete surface shown in the video if he has boots on" Could you or have you videoed him walking on that with boots on? It might give more insight into the reasons he is having problems.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Poor guy!

I wonder if he is getting some sort of shooting pains. He looks almost like he wants to go to the bathroom. The foot kicking, licking and licking of his penis all make me think that he is having some uncomfortable sensation occurring.

I also noticed that even though he was playing happily, he was very stiff in the back legs and hips compared to his brother. And then he did the circling with a small kick at the end of the video.

I can attest to serious muscle weakness in the hind quarters being a symptom of hypothyroidism. My Jasper couldn't get up from a smooth surface without help and even needed help getting up from a lying down position when he was on carpet before he started his thyroid meds. Hypothyroidism can also cause neurological symptoms. I hope you can get to the bottom of this, for his sake and your sake.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Fostermom....I had no idea the muscle could be so affected from low thyroid level. Important to know and remember. Maybe Seger's meds will start to make him feel better soon!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Hello again - I am so overwhelmed by the interest in Seger and the variety of suggestions being made. Very much appreciated. I can address some of the questions asked.
When Seger walks he drags the toes on his rear paws - this was noticed at the age of two. We have tried the test where you turn his paw over so the top of his paw is on the ground - Seger promptly flips his paw right side up.
He also walks kind of stiff legged in the rear legs. And he does bunny hop when he is playing or manoeuvring around in tight spaces. With his booties on he does not have the spasms nor does he circle or collapse in the rear.
The other thing we noticed this past weekend at the cottage is that when he runs he starts out alternating rear legs ie right then left. Then he progresses to a bunny hop gait here both hind legs move together.
He and Oakley wrestle anywhere and everywhere, but the circling etc only happens on hard or rough surfaces ie he is fine on the grass and in the house, or in the snow.

He has been on his thyroid meds for 3 days now so I am really anxious to see what happens, if anything, after a few weeks. 
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. 
I will definitely keep you posted. And other ideas welcome 
Carol


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

OK, after hearing some of the other issues, I don't think it's purely behavioral, though there may be a component there.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Oakley&SegersMom said:


> With his booties on he does not have the spasms nor does he circle or collapse in the rear.
> Carol


Based on the above quote, I also believe Segar mainly dislikes the feel of the concrete or rough surfaces or they are triggering some really unusual neurological reaction.

I can't figure how a hard, rough surface could cause a physical response like that so I can only suggest it is psychosomatic.

Segar does also have some oddities in his gait. I cannot remember if he has been checked out by a orthopedist or not. It might help gain some insight into his other gait issues and possibly even the odd ones that are triggered by a hard, roguh surface.

He's adorable by the way.: both of them are and those faces would be tooooo hard to resist.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Okay, I just watched the videos again. You might want to start with a small dose of anti-inflammatory medicine to see if it would help with this in case it is pain related, but my main interest this time was that Segar does not seem distressed while he is circling and spasming. Does he avoid the concrete or is he actually having some kind of strange good time?

His tail never quits waggin, he doesn't seem to try to avoid or leave the concrete and he also started it in the grass after a bout of high energy play. Is it maybe triggered by excitement?

There are just so many variables to this, that it is hard to pin down any ONE thing.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

How's Seger doing? Any changes?


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm also wondering how Seger is doing and a suggestion - try putting down a big area rug on the concrete and see what happens. or some pieces of carpet & see what he does - move off the rug or stay or just what.

It's very strange that he doesn't move off of the concrete. Poor baby!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi everyone - Seger is still happy in spite of all this craziness  He seems to have stopped his paw licking since he went on the Thyroid meds. We haven't received any feedback from our vet who posted the video link on her virtual veterinarian network. She suggested that we may want to consider xrays but I"m gonna wait on that for a bit and see how he does after a few weeks of meds.
Duke's Momma - it is funny you suggested the carpet because I had just mentioned that to my SO the other night - I cannot understand either why Seger doesn't just run for the grass. But once he starts this circling and spasming he just seems to get "stuck" in that pattern. We have to take hold of him gently and physically bring him to the lawn.
The fact that he licks and licks his paws when the episode is over makes me think that his paws hurt. So might he have sensitive nerve endings that are irritated by the concrete?
We will keep watching him. He has been at the cottage for 2 nights now with hubby due to hockey playoffs  so I haven't seen him on the concrete since Monday. Will keep you posted though. Thanks again everyone for thinking about him and taking the time to post. Carol


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Thanks for the update! Despite the weirdness of it all, at least Seger's still a happy guy!


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Seger's Mom*

Seger's Mom

I wanted to make sure that you saw what I posted the other day:




Karen519 said:


> Seger
> 
> I am NO EXPERT, but it sounds behavioral to me. Could be both thyroid and behavioral.
> It seems here is something about the pavement, cement, that scares him.
> ...


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Oh Karen519 I did miss that link. I'm sorry! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I will check it out tonight! Carol


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*OakleyandSeger's Mom*

OakleyandSeger's Mom

This could be the link to the Dogtown Episode (Best Friends, Kanab, Utah)
where dog was afraid to walk on the floor and had to walk on rugs.

*Best Friends Guardian AngelsHave you ever met a dog that was afraid to walk on linoleum or wood floors? That's probably because they were not socialized to it as pups. ...
www.bestfriends.org
www.bestfriends.org/guardianangel/i...Set&entry=8DA98FBA-BDB9-396E-90FA8BD002FBF2FF
clipped from Google - 5/2010*

*READ THIS!
Many people don’t realize that socialization does not just mean interaction with people and dogs it also includes familiarizing a puppy with as many different objects, smells, sights and sounds as possible. There are so many things in our environment that we don’t think about that can be very scary to a pup that has never experienced them. Sounds like: pots and pans clanging in the kitchen, the washer and dryer running, water running in the bathtub, dogs barking, and a computer printer are all things that puppies need to learn to get used to. Kunzie can’t walk on the ground yet but I’ve been carrying her around outside so she can get accustom to the smells, sounds and sights of the out doors. She has gotten used to the sound of my dogs barking and has even started joining in. Have you ever met a dog that was afraid to walk on linoleum or wood floors? That’s probably because they were not socialized to it as pups. Even something as simple as different surface textures (grass, carpet, linoleum, tile, cement, gravel etc.) are important to take in to consideration. Kunzite has a collection of toys that are all made out of different materials with different textures, shapes, sizes and degrees of softness/hardness. She has tennis balls, rope toys, squeaky toys, Nylabones etc. 

*Search ResultsDogTown | Video | Vick Dogs Update | DogTown - National Geographic ...
DogTown DogTown. Episodes. XAll Episodes .... New Beginnings , Wylle's New Beginning , Wylle learns to walk with only three legs. New Hope , Fear of the Floor , Dogs with emotional and behavioral problems often make great strides -- only to ... DOGS FIND HOMES. Best Friends sanctuary is their last hope. Visit Site ...
channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dogtown/all/Videos
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...&sa=X&ei=pAbsS7GgOML68AbR0enHBA&ved=0CBUQHzAA


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks Karen 519 - The funny thing is that Seger has not always had these "episodes". There was a time that he was fine on cement etc. So I don't think it is the same scenario as described in the story in your post.
Our vet got a response back from a neuro vet on her virtual network. She had a few more questions for us so we will see what comes of that! Let's hope someone figures it out.
Carol


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Update on Seger - I just received this email from my vet. She had posted Seger's YouTube videos to her vet network. She wrote:
"Hi again Carol. Based on the information you provided below, the neurologist is not convinced this is a neuro problem. Rather they wanted me to check with both the behavioural vet and the dermatologist. I have cross-posted to each of these specialties". 
So that is good news! I was so afraid of a neurological issue, or tumor, causing the symptoms. So now to wait and see what the others think.
I received some of these same suggestions on this Board, so I'll be anxious to see this play out.
Will keep you posted.
Carol


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I'm glad your vet got back to you about Seger. His difficulties are very perplexing indeed. I don't know if I would be as patient as you are however, to get to the bottom of these symptoms. Especially since you say he has been struggling with some of these symptoms for so long. I would begin with a specialist that you feel would suit his needs best at this point (you know him better than anyone else), and take it from there. Basically try to rule out various things. It may very well be a combination of things, since he has had these leg spasms for awhile. I don't know Seger, but I do think of him from time to time and wonder how he is doing. He really has touched my heart from seeing these videos and I am worried about him. Please keep us posted.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks Jax's Mom - I too am very sad and discouraged that it took the vet so long to get things rolling, but I hope we are on track now. I don't know what kind of specialist we should be thinking about - his symptoms are just so strange. What are your thoughts on that? I do feel that at least now we are "doing" something. In our vet clinic there are 2 vets, one of which is always available. Late last summer I got very discouraged bouncing back and forth from one to the other, and felt the continuity, particularly with Seger who has these potentially serious issues, was not good. At that time, I insisted that we only have appts booked when one of the 2 was working. I just wanted to know that one of them was intimately aware of Seger's progress or lack thereof, and that we could follow one agreed upon plan of care. The first thing we did was get him onto monthly Cartrophen injections (which I give him) in the event any of the leg issues were skeletal in nature. That seems to have helped a lot with his tolerance for stairs, and just general mobility. He was seeming "stiff" in the hind legs particularly after long walks or busy weekends at the lake. 
At the same time we tackled the skin issues - that was getting into late fall 2009 and I know I have that under control with the Orijen 6-Fish Blend. (poultry allergy was the cause). We also treated his yeast infections between his toes. That's all good now! 
Then we did the Thyroid Panel which came back inconclusive for hypothyroidism (T4 was low but TSH normal)but in any event we started Seger on an 8-week trial of Thyroid meds a week ago, so I need to give that time to work. Then we shared the videos and are now starting to get some feedback.
Living where I do we do not have ready access to specialists; however having said that I have told my vet that in a heartbeat I would take Seger to the Veterinary School at Guelph University if we got to that point where we were not making any more progress on our own. 
Seger seems happy, he runs and plays, he eats well, and besides having to wear his Muttluks year round on his hind paws, everything is good. We never leave Oakley or Seger outside alone (unless they are just lying on the back deck) so we make sure we occupy Seger and he doesn't get hung up on the cement, so I don't think he is suffering any.
I definitely hope we are not missing anything major, but I feel some progress is being made.
Carol


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Carol, I really do feel for you. I didn't have a problem of this type, but when Jax was limping, it was driving me CRAZY until we finally got an answer for what it was. I'm not good at wait and see....just impatient I guess ...and nervous. Although I am glad your vet has finally made some progress, I feel like he should have been able to give you a more defintive direction to go in by now. To be quite honest, I was surprised to hear that he didn't feel there was a neurological tie in to this. I am NOT a doctor of any sort, but do have some medical background, and if it were my dog, I probably would want to get some kind of neuro work up....if at least to just rule it out. I know vets and especially specialist are very expensive, so I understand finances makes things difficult at times. I know he has underlying problems with allergies and his skin, but it sounds like you have some of that sorted out with his switch in diet. The other option is to go to an orthopedic specialist to rule out any joint, bone problems, but from what I see on the video, Seger does NOT seem to be in pain and in fact looks quite HAPPY....tail wagging through it all (bless his heart). I hestitate to mention this, only because I don't want to seem like an alarmist, but I was looking into rescuing another golden (before we got Lucy) and he was a special needs boy. He was being treated by a large rescue organization not too far from us. He did have a mild neurological issue, and walked in circles. That is why the walking in circles has me concerned (and that he has a hard time coming out of it). He was more involved than Seger, having some difficult with incontinence, not bad, and also had to be watched on stairs which is a major reason we did not end up taking him in. Is it possible, instead of going to a specialist since it can be so expensive, trying to get a referral from someone to a vet who they trust and feel might be more knowledgable? That is what I did for Jax. We went to another vet recommended by an employee of the rescue organization and we really noticed the difference in his exam and his explanation to us. We felt quite confident after seeing him that we were on the right track, and sure enough, Jax's limp went away (was diagnosed with Panosteitis). If anything, it may give you peace of mind. You can always go back to your original vet if need be, but maybe someone with better dignositic skills would be a godsend. I wish you and Seger all the best! Luisa


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks Luisa! The vet who ruled out neurological involvement (from the videos) is a neurology veterinarian. Our vet sent the video clip to a specialist group to review. She started with Neurology, and they have now suggested she move on to Orthopedic and Dermatology, which she has now done. I think she is trying to be systematic in her process, and trying to rule things out one at a time, and not have too many things going on at once. I'm a real process person so I am comfortable with this and do trust this one vet we are working with exclusively now. I wasn't happy bouncing back and forth between the 2 at the clinic but that is resolved now.
Something in me says that Segers pads are tender for some reason and that is why the rough cement and pavement cause him grief. He never ever circles except on the cement. I will be so happy if we can figure this out. If we don't get anything definitive in the next week or so, and after he has been on the thyroid meds for a few weeks, I will ask for a referral. We have talked about sending him for assessment, MRI etc in Guelph. I would definitely take him! We can manage this financially between our pet insurance and our own reserves. So that would not be a limiting factor for me in terms of getting him assessed by a specialist.
Anyway I am so appreciative of all of the comments and suggestions being made here and am keeping a log of them all to discuss with our vet. It is nice to feel that all of you are thinking about Seger and helping us figure this out! Carol


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

It's so important to have a vet you trust, and also important that he works with you on a level you are comfortable with. It really seems that you and he are on the same "page" so to speak as far as how you approach things...which is a terrific thing. I'm sorry, I must have missed where the neuro vet actually saw the video. Also glad to know you have pet insurance, we did the same thing about 2 months ago, and although we haven't had to use it yet, it really gives us peace of mind as far as the expense we might come across IF something ever does come up. Give Seger a hug from me...Luisa


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Update on Seger. Well the Neurology Vet has ruled out a neurological problem, and the Orthopedic vet does not believe there is anything wrong structurally or with Seger's bones and/or joints. But the Dermatology Vet feels Seger's licking of his toes suggests an irritation and has suggested a condition called "malassezia". Basically a yeast/fungal infection - Seger has the symptoms for sure - licking of toes, tenderness in area where the infection resides, black skin pigmentation (which Seger has in his groins), ear infections, itchiness/scratching. So I had to answer a few more questions to rule out a behavioral issue- they asked if Seger ever has the spasms when we are not outside with him ie might if be attention seeking. But he does have them whether we are there or not. 
We had started foot soaks on Seger a couple of weeks ago with an antifungal solution and noticed the licking really lessened. So maybe we are onto something. I sure hope so. And if it is as simple as a yeast/fungal infection there is hope it can be cleared up. Does anyone have any knowledge about or experience with this condition?
Thanks again!
Carol


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I havent ever heard of it but hopefully it is something that can be treated so easily.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Seger*

SOUNDS like progress is being made with Seger.

Will continue praying!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I hope it bears out to be the yeast issue and this resolves it! Did you say he was on thyroid meds?


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks for the comments! It does seem as though we are making some progress.
Fostermom...yes Seger has been on Thyroid meds since May 8th.
Carol


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Glad to hear*

Glad to hear that Seger is making progress!!


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I hope Segar has continued to improve.

the only suggestion I have is to clip the hair around his toes and pads to help control the fungal infection. I think getting air to those areas would help him heal faster.:crossfing


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Seger*

Hoping Seger is doing better!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Hope that Seger's leg spasms are better.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you for thinking of Seger. He has been on his thyroid meds since May 8th and we soak his feet in an antifungal each night. Unfortunately I do not feel the spasms are improving. We spend so much time at the cottage with the nice weather he is not out on the cement a lot, but what concerns me is the continued toe dragging. I know the neurologist vet specialist said it was not neurological, but I noted something odd on the weekend. I was rubbing Seger as we so often do - I like to give them a good massage and check for lumps and bumps, skin issues etc. About mid way down Seger's spine 2 vertebrae seem to be protruding. When I rubbed my finger over them he immediately started kicking his hind leg. Kind of like the leg thumping they do when you scratch a certain spot - I always think it tickles. But this was definitely him kicking out his hind leg. So I'm gonna call the vet again and see what her take is on that. This is so discouraging. I was so hoping for a miracle cure with the thyroid meds. Anyway will keep you posted. Carol


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Carol, I'm so sorry that the thyroid meds don't seem to be working. Continuing to send good thoughts and vibes Seger's way, and hoping you find something to help with your sweet guy. Let us know what the vet says....Luisa


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Ask your vet if anyone there is certified in canine acupuncture. Give it a try, it has helped my dog with his ailments. I know how discouraging it is trying to nail down a problem, it can be very frustrating, hang in there!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks for the supportive comments and good thoughts. I appreciate it 
GoldenCamper - I will ask her about acupuncture. Thanks for that suggestion.
Carol


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Carol,
I am sorry things are not improving with Seger. Hopefully with more time the thyroid meds will start to help and an acupuncturist (sp) can help him. Sometimes it takes a couple of months for the thyroid meds to start working. They have helped alot of dogs with so many ailments. Give him a big hug.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Just an update - I sent Seger's thyroid results as well as the link to the YouTube videos to Dr Dodds who was kind enough to reply almost immediately. She suggested a bit of a reduction in dosage of meds (0.8 mg down to 0.6mg) but my vet is not totally happy about that. Although she did tell me I could do it if I want to - but if Seger goes hypothyroid I will notice a change in his energey level.
Dr Dodds said the spasms could be a result of the thyoid being low, and that it could take up to 90 days to see results. In the meantime our vet has asked if we want a referral to the Veterinary Medicine Clinic at Guelph University. I have asked her to send the videos to the Neurologist she would consult with and she is going to do that.
I also checked with her about an acupuncturist - but we have no one around here trained in animal acupuncture. She did suggest a canine chiropractor who comes to town monthly that she actually took her dog to and got good results. Has anyone gone that route? I might take Seger for a consult and see what he says. I'm not a fan of chiropractors (just a personal thing) but I am open-minded and would be interested in hearing other's opinions.
I asked her about Sasha's Blend which is supposed to be good for joints and stiffness and mobility - she also used that on her dog and got great results - she loves the product. I have ordered some and it should be here in a day or 2 so I'm excited to try it.
I know I am grasping at straws but I'm willing to try whatever to control these spasms. I am so hoping I hit on the right "miracle" cure 
Thanks again for thinking of Seger.
Carol


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I know of several people here on the forum that use canine chiropractors and acupuncturist and have seen good results. Here is a list of some that might be able to help

International Veterinary Acupuncture Associationwww.ivas.org
American Veterinary Chiropractic Associationwww.animalchiropractic.org


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

IN Ontario
Acupuncturists--
http://www.ivas.org/Default.aspx?TabId=124--

Chiropractors--- http://www.avcadoctors.com/certified_member_doctors/canada.htm


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

"I am so hoping I hit on the right "miracle" cure "

I think many of us on here can relate to that statement. I sure hope you find out what is wrong with Segar and find a way to help him. He sure is pretty.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I would definitely go the chiropractic route with him. Try an adjustment or two and you will know if it's working or not. Good thoughts to you and Seger!


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Oakley&Seger's Mom*

Oakley&Seger's Mom

Hoping that the chiropractor can help Seger.
He's in my prayers-please keep us posted!


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I've sent the video's to Gilmour's breeder to see if she's ever seen it before. She's been at this for over 40 years.

I'm just going to toss a couple of silly things out there. They are not based on any fact or knowledge or anything. Just idea's...



Did Seger ever have any trauma in his life that involved Concrete?
If you put booties on him, and walk him the same way (grass to concrete to grass to concrete) does the change happen exactly the same way as it does without the booties?
Ok, this one is a bit weird. Bear with me  Put booties on him. Make sure they mask the feel of the ground under him. Now, blindfold him or mask his vision in some way. Walk him over the grass, then the concrete, then the grass, etc... Does the problem go away? You may even want to put an old carpet remnant on the grass part so it doesn't feel so soft and different to where he can easily detect it.
If the problem goes away when he is blindfolded, well, you know where this is headed...


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Oakley&SegersMom said:


> About mid way down Seger's spine 2 vertebrae seem to be protruding. When I rubbed my finger over them he immediately started kicking his hind leg. Kind of like the leg thumping they do when you scratch a certain spot - I always think it tickles. But this was definitely him kicking out his hind leg. So I'm gonna call the vet again and see what her take is on that. This is so discouraging. I was so hoping for a miracle cure with the thyroid meds. Anyway will keep you posted. Carol


Hi Carol - I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. You have definitely gotten a lot of good advice. However, I also know the frustration has continued.
After I read this particular thread, I felt finally I could offer you some words based on my own experience. I immediately jumped to thinking of a chiropractor certified in animal chiropractic. 
Issues with Seger's vertabrae could be secondary to whatever else is going on, but I think it would be of enormous benefit to take him to see a chiropractor. The fact that he had a reflexive response when you rubbed the back told me that something was going on for him and it could be easily treated. Again, it may not be causing the other behavior, but it was telling enough to indicate to you that something was just not right and his physical response was very pronounced.
I have used chiropractors for both Katie and Paddy and for Katie in particular I have had a lot of success. I too am not a fan of chiropractors for my own care - but I cannot argue the results I have seen with Katie. It could also save you the money of an expensive orthopaedic specialist. 

I know you're trying everything and throwing all your mental energy at this, so I just think a visit would be warranted. You never know it could help - either way, they're relatively inexpensive (I believe I pay $60CAD per adjustment) and I think at this point for you it would be worth trying!

I wish I could comment on other issues - and give you more advice ... but I feel qualified enough to endorse chiropractic care and hoped it would give you confidence if others reported their success.

Good luck with Seger, and please keep us updated on his condition.
Kim


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

I am so grateful to all of you who are following Seger's thread and offering advice and support. I am encouraged to see support for the canine chiropractor - that I can easily arrange. 
BeauShel thank you for providing the links - I will have a look and see if anyone is close by. I am definitely going to call the one who comes to town monthly after hearing the positive results some have had with a chiropractor.
NuttinButGoldens - when Seger has his boots on he does not have the spasms - it is only when he is "bare paws". He does however drag his toes boots or not. Thanks for the suggestions though! I am anxious to hear if your very experienced Breeder has ever seen this or can shed any light. 
Will keep you posted. Thanks again!
Carol

Added - here is the web site for the chiropractor who I will be contacting. He comes to Timmins monthly.
http://www.twohandsforhealth.ca/


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Just an update. Seger will be seeing the Chiroprator the week of July 12th so I am eagerly awaiting that. I started Oakley and Seger both on Sasha's Blend FlexBites this week so am hoping to see if that brings any improvement. I was pretty disheartened this past week -my son is visiting from Vancouver and so I took the week off work and was able to walk Oak and Seger every morning. This is the first time I noticed that Seger's ability to tolerate our usual long distances is really reduced. We walked only about 50% of the distance (about 2 km rather than 4) and by the end he was lagging behind. I really wonder if he is in pain - how the heck do you know??? He doesn't wimper or anything but looks up at me with these sad eyes as if to say "what's wrong with me mom?". This is killing me. He still runs and leaps around and jumps on and off of things no prolem. So what can this be?? We have asked our vet to make a referral to the Vet Med School in Guelph so if we don't get any answers with the Chiroprator that is our next step. 
Carol


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Carol*

Carol

Please keep us all update and praying for Seger and you!


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

We wish you luck with the chiropractor, thanks for the updates! I know how disheartening it is when they aren't themselves, I really hope they can get to the bottom of this to give you some relief too. :crossfing


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

praying for some results from the chiropractor and you can get a referral to the vet college.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

*Seger Saw the Chiropractor*

Well, we had our appts yesterday and today. I have to say I feel as though a huge weight has been lifted off me. The Veterinarian Chiropractor is a wonderful and very caring young man. He came yesterday and did a thorough assessment of Seger, both inside the house and outside in the yard. He commented on Seger's demeanor - he said he looked "sad". We so agree 
Anyway he checked him out and determined that for about 18" of his spine, from the base of his tail up, his back was misaligned. Seger flinched as he probed certain spots, and as he explained, this is where nerve endings were exposed and sensitive. He explained that because the "messages" were not travelling properly through Seger's nervous system, he did not have full awareness of his body. Therefore the foot dragging and leg spasms - basically the "spasms" happen because Seger is not aware of his legs. When you watch the videos, he turns in circles looking at his rear legs. He knows what they should be doing but can't make them do it. 
He also checked every one of Segers joints and except for some stiffness in his hips, due to the compensating gait and leg spasms, everything is good. No signs of arthritis or degenerative disease.
He did 2 "adjustments" of Seger's vertebrae - one yesterday and then another this morning, and he will come back in a month for another treatment. 
Seger is a new dog today. He still has some toe dragging - apparently your spine heals an inch a month - so imagine the extent of healing that needs to happen. But Seger is calm, not panting or pacing. It seems his pain is finally gone. He slept so comfortably last night - he is usually very restless, licks his paws, kicks his legs and paces around the house at night. We didn't hear a peep from him last night.
I feel so badly that we let this go on for years - we tried everything the vet suggested - to the point where I was feeling like they thought he would just always be this way.
I have to say that there is a possibility that if I were not a member of this board, I may not even have thought of the chiropractor. I have learned so much from reading everyone's posts every night. My DH laughs because he says I read so much...but we are both so happy that I discovered the whole idea of canine chiropractors here and asked our vet about it. What disturbs me is that she did not suggest this a long time ago. 
But anyway that is all in the past and we have to move forward.
So thanks everyone for your concern and suggestions - I will keep you posted on Seger's progress.


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## luvagolden (Jan 20, 2009)

Please have your vet check him for Myasthinia Gravis. I had a Mastiff several years ago, and out of the blue he started doing exactly what was in your video. It was on and off at first, then one day he was completely lame in the back end, then became lame in front. He was blazing a fever also. Unfortunately, it was too late for him and we had to put him down. Please ask your vet about this possibility


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## luvagolden (Jan 20, 2009)

I apologize, I skipped alot of posts and just wrote after seeing the video.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Carol

I am so glad that you saw the chiropractor for Seger and it has helped him. Makes me happy to hear how much it helped so fast. Give him a big hug and kiss. Dont second guess yourself on what you could or should have done. I did that with my Beau and it didnt help him or me. You can only do what you know at the time or what your vet suggests. 
Tell your husband that my hubby was the same way until my Beau started having seizures and then I learned so much online here and it helped us to improve his quality of life. I did suggest the information to my vet and he was open to the information and has since passed it on to other people. And the harness that I bought Beau he has passed on that website to several people when he saw how much it helped me and Beau's quality of life. A good vet will listen to you and be open to ideas. So maybe suggest the chiropractor to your vet and let him see Seger for themself.


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## KiwiD (Jan 14, 2008)

Carol,
So glad to hear that Seger is doing so much better after seeing the chiropractor. It's so hard to help them when they can't tell us what's wrong but it sounds like this may be the solution for him. 

Hugs for your handsome boy.

Christine


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

tippykayak said:


> It actually looks really behavioral when you compare the two pictures, like the roughness of the concrete makes him feel like something is getting stuck on his feet. Is he really truly normal on grass? If he's also fine on laminate, it really makes me feel like it's the texture of the concrete and pavement which is freaking him out.


I got the same impression when watching him it is like he is trying to stretch or get something unpleasant off his feet.


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

Now that you have an idea of what might be wrong, something with his spine that makes sense. He looks like when he was stressing that if he stretched out the pain or numbness would go away. I hope this helps him out. Maybe this is a part of his crankiness also. I wonder, do dogs suffer from syatica? (spelling).


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Oakley&SegersMom said:


> He also checked every one of Segers joints and except for some stiffness in his hips, due to the compensating gait and leg spasms, everything is good. No signs of arthritis or degenerative disease. Hooray!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Seger is a new dog today. Another big hooray!
> 
> ...


This board has helped me enormously with advice, support and suggestions and I know everyone is glad you found out information to help Segar.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi everyone - thought I would provide an update on Seger. His toe dragging has decreased a lot. We still put boots on him to walk but his tolerance of distances has greatly improved and he doesn't seem uncomfortable walking as he did before. He has not had any more of the spasms on the concrete - huge relief for us and for him I am sure!
The Chiropractor actually just left our home - saw Seger today and will come back tomorrow, then again in another month. He had a bit of adjusting to do but not as extensive as the first visits. 
One of the things he watches for after the treatment is for the dog to do a full body shake - that is "acceptance" of the adjustment and treatment. Seger only shook his head, not his whole body, so we are hoping for a good shake tomorrow 
We are just so pleased with the progress and hope it continues.
One of the things we did note, was that for about 2-3 weeks after the first treatments Seger didn't seem as cranky with Oakley, but in the last week he's been a bit temperamental. Now that could be because I was gone for a week and Seger gets upset when his world is changed in any way  but we also wondered if he was getting a bit sore again and therefore the treatment today was due.
Whatever it is , we are now off to the cottage for 5 days - DH will bring him in to town for his treatment tomorrow. At the cottage we have to work with him by running up and down the slopes and also stepping over logs to strengthen his back legs. So we will have lots of fun stuff going on! 
Will keep you posted on his progress!
Again thanks for all the great advice and suggestions...and support.
Carol


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

What a great update!


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## KiwiD (Jan 14, 2008)

Glad to hear that Seger is doing well!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> It actually looks really behavioral when you compare the two pictures, like the roughness of the concrete makes him feel like something is getting stuck on his feet. Is he really truly normal on grass? If he's also fine on laminate, it really makes me feel like it's the texture of the concrete and pavement which is freaking him out.



I was going to write this same comment, but Tippykayak says it well. The other dog seems baffled too- why no more playful friend? Horses have these issues of footing, so why not a dog. Is it possible the surface just freaks him out? He seems like such a gorgeous nice dog. It is sad to see him so distressed. What happens if you scatter bath mats on the cement?


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Carol*

Carol

So glad that Seger seems to be doing better.
Will await the next update and have FUN!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you Karen. We had our 2nd consecutive visit and Seger needed minimal adjustment. The chiropractor said he is seeing both neurological and musculoskeletal improvements in Seger. Seger seems so happy now. Still toe dragging but definitely not to the degree it used to be. He seems to drag more when he is tired - but as the chiropractor said, it has been a long time since he could accurately sense where his back feet were so it will take some time to re-learn proper walking. He has minimal spasms - I noticed it once tonite actually at the cottage when he and Oaklely were horsing around in the driveway. But again definitely not as bad as it was. I am going to be patient and do as the chiropractor has suuggested by way of exercises and I am optimistic that we will continue to see progress. Thanks for your encouragement and support. Carol


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

So, we had our 3rd visit with the chiropractor this evening. He will come back again tomorrow morning, and then in another month. Seger has made considerable progress. He has virtually no more toe dragging - we even walk him now without his boots and he does great! No dragging on the pavement, and his stamina is back up to what we feel is normal for him!. The chiropractor feels that there is a lot of improvement in his spinal column and each time he comes Seger requires less adjustment. Seger is not tender at all now when you run your hand along his spinal column - before we started with the chiropractor he would flinch and his skin would "quiver" when we touched his back. And best of all he does not do his little "dance" outside on the paving stones. So I really believe it is exactly as the chiropractor explained it - Seger was not receiving accurate messages to his brain from the nerve endings and up his spinal column - therefore he could not tell where his feet were. He could see them but they would not do what he wanted them to do. Also he did not know they were dragging when he walked as he was not feeling them. It all makes so much sense. We are so very happy with his progress and really love the chiropractor. He lives in the Toronto area so if anyone down that way is looking for a doggie chiropractor let me know and I will give you the name. Thanks all.
Carol


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

That is just wonderful news about Seger. I can just read the happiness about him in your post. He looks good in the picture.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Carol*

Carol

I am ecstatic for Seger and you!!
So happy!!!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thanks BeauShel and Karen519 - it is so nice to see the improvement. Seger seems much more relaxed too - the pacing and restlessness has virtually stopped and he actually "chills". It is great !
Carol


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Give Seger a big hug and kiss from me. I know you feel alot of relief that he is doing so much better.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

No shortage of hugs and kisses here


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Seger and Oakley*

Please give Seger and Oakley BIG KISSES AND HUGS!!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Hello everyone! I can't believe it is almost a year ago I started this thread. Seger has been seeing the chiropractor twice a month and the leg spasms are now only occasional. His toe dragging is also really improved and really only occurs when he has been really active and he is tired out. No more boots 
A number of you commented when you reviewed the YouTube video that Seger's leg spasms could be due to him experiencing wierd sensation on his pads when he walked on certain surfaces.
Yesterday the chiro had Seger on his side working on his quads and commented on how soft Seger's pads are. We have noted this in the past to our vet - and asked a number of times if this could have anything to do with his leg activity. He seems to have no "tread" at all and when compared to Oakley's pads it is night and day. We joke that Seger's pads are soft as a baby's bottom.
My question is, does anyone know of any condition that might cause the pads to be super soft. I googled it and there was one reference to diabetes but I could not find anything further to substantiate that. Seger has had lab work in the past few months to recheck his thyroid as he is on meds for hypothyroidism. He exhibits no signs of diabetes so I am really not even thinking that way. Could it be a nutritional deficiency? I am going to keep searching but thought I would ask here. 
Seger walks a lot, on pavement and grass, he runs at the cottage on various surfaces etc. So it is not like his pads have no opportunity to toughen up.
Thoughts appreciated as always 
Thanks
Carol


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Carol*

Carol

I am so glad to hear that Seger is doing better!!

I don't know of anything that can cause soft pads on a dog's feet. I will google it though.

Kisses and hugs to Seger and Oakley!!


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you Karen519. You are always so eager to help everyone on this forum! I really appreciate it 
I will also keep looking for anything of interest regarding soft paws.
Thanks.
Carol


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Carol, if there's a vet school nearby, maybe give them a call and ask this question? The vet students are often happy to research out-of-the-ordinary medical issues, plus they see lots and lots of dogs, so may have seen soft paws in another pup.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Here I am almost a year and half later. Seger has continued to see the chiropractor monthly with positive results. However his toe dragging continues at varying degrees, and he still seems to not be able to "push off" with his rear legs. When we were away this summer my step son was taking care of the dogs and told us that Seger slipped coming up from the basement (7 stairs hardwood) and couldn't get his footing and slid back down on his tummy  
He is also temperamental and still occasionally snarly with Oakley. I keep thinking he might be in pain or just uncomfortable.
So.....after much discussion with our vet I have an appt at the Guelph Veterinary College in Southern Ontario on October 17th. The anticipated plan is consult with a neurologist, then MRI, muscle biopsy, nerve conduction studies. He will have to have an anesthetic for some of the tests.
The vet who viewed the YouTube videos is thinking nerve compression in the lumbosacral region of the spinal column. 
So Seger and I will be going on a 9-hour road trip  DH has to work (he's a teacher) and will stay home with Oakley.
Seger and Oakley have never been apart for more than a few hours in their almost 8 years! Will be interesting to see how each react.
I am hopeful we will get some answers. 
Carol


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Oakley&SegersMom said:


> Here I am almost a year and half later. Seger has continued to see the chiropractor monthly with positive results. However his toe dragging continues at varying degrees, and he still seems to not be able to "push off" with his rear legs. When we were away this summer my step son was taking care of the dogs and told us that Seger slipped coming up from the basement (7 stairs hardwood) and couldn't get his footing and slid back down on his tummy
> He is also temperamental and still occasionally snarly with Oakley. I keep thinking he might be in pain or just uncomfortable.
> So.....after much discussion with our vet I have an appt at the Guelph Veterinary College in Southern Ontario on October 17th. The anticipated plan is consult with a neurologist, then MRI, muscle biopsy, nerve conduction studies. He will have to have an anesthetic for some of the tests.
> The vet who viewed the YouTube videos is thinking nerve compression in the lumbosacral region of the spinal column.
> ...


I think it's a good plan and hopefully will give some answers so you can help him feel better.


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## Oakley&SegersMom (Feb 1, 2009)

Thank you Mylissyk. We have given the chiropractic treatments ample time and feel thay although there has been a lot of improvement, there is still a "missing link". Seger will be 8 years old in a few weeks and I feel that we owe it to him to try to determine what exactly is going on. I am really looking forward to the visit to the vet college. My only concern is that we have absolutely no resources in Northern Ontario so a treatment may be recommended that we will not be able to access. But I will cross that bridge when I get to it


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## uptown (Aug 25, 2008)

I just came across this thread discussing Seger's leg spasms. I posted a thread of my own about my in-law's dog 'Tanner' who I'm caring for for a couple weeks in NYC. He's been experiencing some of the same rear-leg spasms that your videos showed after his walks (which are taking place on NYC sidewalks). 

thread I posted

In our case, Tanner is 9, and definitely has rear-leg weakness apart from the leg spasms - but we've noticed his involuntary "kicking" when he returns from a walk. Apparently Tanner's behavior is new to him, so I'm wondering whether his kicking is due to walking on NYC sidewalks, or just leg tiredness. I was wondering whether you ever came up with things that seemed to work for Seger. Thanks for any insight you can provide. Reading the discussion about Seger was very helpful.


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