# Correction with a tap under the Chin



## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I haven't heard of it. How does a tap differ from a hit, other than lighter? I wouldn't want my dog to flinch when I reach my hand toward him.


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

Oh no! Don't do that. Hitting a puppy in the face seems like an awful idea. Calling it a "tap" doesn't make it any less awful.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I have an 8 month old border collie puppy, and from day one, I want my hands, or anybody's hands near his head or face or touching him anywhere, to predict only good things for him. It's about trust. Knowing full well there will come a time when I must take something from his mouth (trade him) clean his ears, check his teeth, put his leash and/or harness on, take his collar I did not and do not want to create a dog who fears or is apprehensive about hands moving around his head or body. It is simple to teach a pup not to trust human hands, 'correct' them in such way, they will learn very quickly bad things can happen, but not so easy to change that undermined trust once it is taught. 

When we train with aversives we need to consider what we are really teaching our dogs.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Charliethree said:


> I have an 8 month old border collie puppy, and from day one, I want my hands, or anybody's hands near his head or face or touching him anywhere, to predict only good things for him. It's about trust. Knowing full well there will come a time when I must take something from his mouth (trade him) clean his ears, check his teeth, put his leash and/or harness on, take his collar I did not and do not want to create a dog who fears or is apprehensive about hands moving around his head or body. It is simple to teach a pup not to trust human hands, 'correct' them in such way, they will learn very quickly bad things can happen, but not so easy to change that undermined trust once it is taught.
> 
> When we train with aversives we need to consider what we are really teaching our dogs.


Couldn't have said this better myself.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

I think the tapping the chin would not be good for a Golden too. Just saw a trend out there for bite issues, never heard of it until now. 

I came across another video that uses a clicker and reward (aka treat) to correct the biting issue. 
1. Put the puppy in a sit position with stay
2. Place the back of the hand in front of the puppy's mouth
3. If the puppy does not nip/bite click the clicker then give the puppy a treat, if the puppy licks or touches you with the nose click and give a treat
4. Once you the puppy is good at this, wave your figures and repeat the click and treat for success

This work real good yesterday, I Plan on trying again on Saturday


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I've never heard of that one either but it sounds like a really great thing to try. We found the clicker and reward method for other training to be very quick an effective.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I agree with everyone... it's far more effective (for a golden anyway) to reward the behavior you want vs. making a correction. And I would NEVER use my hands to the head area for anything other than giving treats or love. Nothing more heartbreaking than watching a dog duck whenever you raise your hand expecting a correction, no matter how slight. 

What breed was in the youtube video? A german shepherd or rotti/doberman or even a boxer wouldn't give this a second thought but a golden or spaniel would take it personally and be crushed.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

David Pearson said:


> Has anybody heard of this before? I saw it in a youtube video, and now reading it in a facebook forum.



What is it correcting?


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

Sweet Girl said:


> What is it correcting?


Here is youtube video about it: 



by www.miami-dog-training.com

Wonder if we hear about that pitbull in the video hurting someone in the future.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Um.... I don't really see that as "tracking" out there in the dog training world. 

That wasn't a tap so much as a cuff under the jaw. 

I have other ways of correcting mouthing - depending on the situation. 

If mouthing my hand - I will do a tongue press while I at the same time say "NO BITE". If my pup goes to mouth me - and I say "NO BITE" - I expect him to pull away immediately. If he still bites, then he gets a tongue press + NO BITE correction. It's pairing the verbal and physical correction which loads the verbal correction. 

Tongue press doesn't need to hurt or cause a pup to yelp. 

It's just light pressure which the dogs find uncomfortable. If you do the same pressure to your own tongue - you can kinda get that. 

My pup does not mouth my hands or arms. To be honest, he still has a glitch about my winter coat which is faux fur LOL. He jumps up to grab a mouthful when I'm putting it on - and some of this is excitement because me putting my coat on means we are going outside to play. 

My correction here is "OFF" - which works and gets him off. But doesn't stop him from jumping up and grabbing at my coat. I have not quite discouraged that yet, however - I think he will grow out of it. 

I use aversives with my dogs, fwiw. Including those tongue presses, nose bops (you are using a finger to tap the end of your dog's nose as a correction for something like barking or trying to grab something off your plate or whatever). 

Furthermore, with my puppy I've always checking his teeth - which he HATESSSSSSSSS. 

My dogs are not handshy or stressed by hands. I could make a quick motion of my hand over their heads without them even flinching. I'm a firm believer that your hands + you touching your dogs is supposed to be comforting and the best thing EVER for your dogs. 

And it is with my dogs. With Bertie especially - he wants to be touched. It's a comforting thing for him. So he will stuff his head under your arm or hand or paw you when you stop touching him. 

And Jovi is getting to be like that too. Only he's less subtle. Jovi will climb up into your lap and prop his face up under your chin or on your shoulder and fall asleep while you are touching him.

I remember reading in a book (White Fang, probably) where the dog character hated having his ears touched, but had to learn how to be touched elsewhere before he grew to like it. <= And my goals in raising any puppy is teaching them to love being touched and never fear me or any other person.

It's criminal for any golden retriever to feel fear of any person. These dogs should grow up trusting anybody. And you get there by how you handle the dogs. 

Corrections - when they are fair + positive corrections - do not break that trust. 

People going all out trying to "punish" a dog, or taking their anger or frustration out on a dog - that breaks trust.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

I up the level of training with this, I put on sweat pants that he loves to chew and bite, then I use the method below for training. He appear to learn, will keep doing this until he gets it down pack. Stuart works for natural balance beef roll and carrots. I will eat carrots with him, my new favorite snack.... 

I came across another video that uses a clicker and reward (aka treat) to correct the biting issue. 
1. Put the puppy in a sit position with stay
2. Place the back of the hand in front of the puppy's mouth
3. If the puppy does not nip/bite click the clicker then give the puppy a treat, if the puppy licks or touches you with the nose click and give a treat
4. Once you the puppy is good at this, wave your figures and repeat the click and treat for success


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

Update: Stuart just grab my sweat pants. I told him No, then he sat... He is learning


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If we are training - Jovi is on his best behavior... I don't use clickers (my dogs are trained by my voice), but treats especially - he defaults to trying out his list of tricks to get rewarded (ie, he spins, backs, and belly flops into a down)

It's typically only when he's super excited and in happy zoomie mode that the mouthing happens. 

Bertie used to do the same mouthing on my coat type behaviors, but we got that switched to him grabbing a toy and running around with and shaking a toy. Jovi - will work on him getting there too, but definitely these are behaviors they grow out of by the time they are about 2 years old.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Something to consider when we are choosing how we treat and teach our dogs. 

The Allure of Punishment |

We should keep in mind that our dogs are extremely intelligent, sensitive and emotional animals, who depend on us, who expect and deserve as much from us, as we do from them.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

BTW.... in a dogs eyes their owner training them and PLAYING with them including corrections.... is less aversive than sticking your dog in a crate in a dark room and leaving them stowed away in isolation for hours every day. 

You want to make people feel guilty, keep in mind what kind of ownership habits cause separation anxiety and neurotic behaviors (licking or chewing legs, etc). 

Putting a dog (social animal) by himself in a tiny crate... in a dark room... on a separate floor from his people has got to be the most cruel thing an owner could do. But it is very common and widespread - and lot of it is for the convenience of the owners, vs thinking about how the dogs view things. 

Corrections can be fair and positive.

Some dogs - particularly golden retrievers or labs or other retriever breeds... they are pretty tough. They will not fall to pieces just because of a small correction that is well timed and associated with a positive (training is positive for dogs). 

Some dogs... like border collies? Heck yeah. They are soft. Very soft. Very sensitive. Sometimes very unforgiving. 

It should all come down to training the dog you have. 

Most of us who train our dogs are primarily very soft handed and positive. We want our dogs up, excited, happy when training.... so a lot of focus is on motivation, especially when building foundations (foundations for active heads up heeling, fast drops, fast recalls, fast but clean retrieves). Corrections are used very minimally and typically are paired with positive reinforcement. 

If you train your dogs - it should be a lot of fun for them. 

You should have the type of problems that I do. <= I have dogs getting hysterical when they realize that I snuck away and am training somebody else. Dogs should WANT to train. 

The role of the dog owner is to learn how to read their individual dog. And learn how to communicate clearly to the dog what they want or what the house rules are. Don't fight battles that don't need to be fought. 

Probably a good example is practical training.... any time my dogs go outside, I give them treats when they come back in. This teaches them it is always rewarding to come back to the house vs playing "catch me" games. 

If my dogs do take off running off the property, there are very serious corrections done (border training is life or death training). But I would much rather motivate them to stay close and run for the house when I'm heading in. So far since I really cracked down on types of foundation training that I do with puppies, I have not had a dog leaving the property. This goes back 11 years. Dogs before my Jacks taught me more than any obedience trainer or training book could.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

David Pearson said:


> Here is youtube video about it: https://youtu.be/DKhrQVuCUZw
> by www.miami-dog-training.com
> 
> Wonder if we hear about that pitbull in the video hurting someone in the future.



I have a pretty low tolerance for any kind of mistreatment of a dog, so I'm not going to watch. I take it from subsequent posts that it was to correct mouthing. There are clearly many other ways to do it without inflicting pain, fear, or punishment.


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