# Division of Responsibilities: Breeders vs Stud Dog Owners on Genetic Bottlenecks



## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ArkansasGold said:


> Popular sire syndrome has really been on my mind lately. Yesterday I got to spend some time with my friends/mentors. Since they are both breeders and stud dog owners, I asked them (more or less) these questions: At what point should the owner of a popular stud start saying no to bitch owners? Does the stud owner bear some of the responsibility for the future genetic bottleneck coming down from their dog? Or is all of the responsibility on the bitch owners to pick a different dog?
> 
> *I hear the phrase “stud dogs are a dime a dozen” yet it seems like breeders tend to gravitate to just a few dogs once that dog has produced even one or two nice, but highly publicized litters. So are they really a dime a dozen?* How do we balance breeding to the great producers and getting nice puppies but also not continuing down the path of every pedigree having the same few dogs?
> 
> Just looking for some different perspectives here. I’m putting this in the pedigree section because as a bitch owner and future breeder, I’ve spent a lot of time looking at pedigrees and feeling extremely limited in my choices due to not wanting to double up on certain popular sires.


Unfortunately as soon as a dog does something of value everyone is naturally going to want to use that dog because "I want the best" and "these puppies will sell like hotcakes". (Also worth noting that sometimes the dog doesn't even have to DO anything other than be a hit on a social media platform.  ) But I think people get tripped up with the difference between "the best" and "the most popular" which are two different things.

Since PSS is such a risky thing for any breed, I hope that people who are breeding will really sit back and evaluate if the sire they're choosing is really the best match for their girl, or if they are motived by popularity. For stud dog owners I can imagine it'd be hard to say no to cash since there isn't really risk to their dog in the bargain. (Seems like AI is so common now, the dogs rarely even meet anyway) There is significantly more risk for the female's owner, as pregnancy carries health risks for the dam, so again, the bitch owner must really feel the pressure to choose the best sire to make it worth the risks. 

Of course besides PSS the other issue further limiting things is the issue of carriers. I can only imagine how disappointing it would be for a breeder to find a really nice stud only to find he carries the same disease gene (ich, ncl, pra...) as your dog does eliminating the match. 

It's a fraught issue but it makes me happy to know that breeders/future breeders are thinking about the issues and looking for solutions.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Also, there is a FB group called "unknown golden stud dogs" to help people avoid PSS. Any dog advertised must be health tested per the GRCA COE. So that's hopeful too I suppose.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I personally believe the responsibility is on both parties. And just common sense.


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

One breeder and stud dog owner I have admired is Alison Webb (was Desmarais), Mirasol Goldens, and the owner of Yogi (Am. CH OTCH CT; Can. CH Highmark Mirasol Once A Knight VCD4 UDX3 JH MX MXJ WC VCX OS SDHF OBHF). Anney can probably give more information, but from what I was told and observed, Alison was very conscientious when it came to studding out Yogi. If you look at the breeders she let use him, they're all respectable and conscientious as well. I believe Alison thought more of the betterment of the breed, than she did of making money off Yogi.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

This is such an easily recognized and well known issue that I continue to be stunned that popular stud dogs are still used as often as they are. The first one that popped into my head, I checked k9data and he has 65 litters on the ground. He's still alive. Next dog I thought of - 65 and recently passed. Next one I thought of has 85 litters - yikes. Really hard to fathom how people justify using these dogs that much. It's not confined to conformation breeders, other sports are just as guilty, but conformation does seem to be the worst. 

Ultimately it is the responsibility of anyone who values Golden Retrievers not to be a part of 50, 60 and 70 litters. Bitch owners might never even check the information if they want to turn a blind eye, the final gatekeeper is the stud owner.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

nolefan said:


> This is such an easily recognized and well known issue that I continue to be stunned that popular stud dogs are still used as often as they are. The first one that popped into my head, I checked k9data and he has 65 litters on the ground. He's still alive. Next dog I thought of - 65 and recently passed. Next one I thought of has 85 litters - yikes. Really hard to fathom how people justify using these dogs that much. It's not confined to conformation breeders, other sports are just as guilty, but conformation does seem to be the worst.
> 
> Ultimately it is the responsibility of anyone who values Golden Retrievers not to be a part of 50, 60 and 70 litters. Bitch owners might never even check the information if they want to turn a blind eye, the final gatekeeper is the stud owner.


This begs another question...how many litters is too many? Should stud dog owners limit to 10 litters...20, 30?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't think it's quantity of breedings as much as it is quality. I only agreed to breedings with Tito if it was a breeding I was really excited about for some reason. 



Hildae said:


> This begs another question...how many litters is too many? Should stud dog owners limit to 10 litters...20, 30?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> This begs another question...how many litters is too many? Should stud dog owners limit to 10 litters...20, 30?


Why would you do that?

We are still using frozen from passed stud dogs over currently living ones for X or Y reason.

The mention of stud dogs being a dime a dozen - it's actually not "true" I think in one way of thinking.

There are fantastic dogs out there who stood alone in their class. And why did they stand alone? Because as breeders downsize their programs, they are keeping only females. And girls have a very short breeding career. So you have 1-2 litters tops that you hope to get lucky from.

Keep a boy and pick a pup here or there or outright buy a pup, and you have a dog that can be campaigned for many years without any concerns about pyo or whatever. And these are the dogs that you become known for because you keep them for many years.

More and more retiring breeders are not keeping studs. They are limiting themselves to a handful of girlies and these are shown, etc... and finished, and bred, and replaced and placed.

There may be a lot of stud dogs out there, but hit or miss if they are owned by somebody you trust, somebody who titled them, somebody who got all the clearances, etc... and somebody who isn't crazy. There ARE crazy stud owners out there. And you also know that the dogs are not going to be sold to show people in Asia next year or whatnot if you go with some people vs others.

Some of the most frequently used stud dogs - sometimes are also owned by great golden people who are easy to "do business with" and are up and up and reliable. And somebody who brings the dogs out all the time and all over so they can be seen and remembered.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Hildae said:


> Unfortunately as soon as a dog does something of value everyone is naturally going to want to use that dog because "I want the best" and "these puppies will sell like hotcakes"


That can't possibly be true because it is never about the money.



ArkansasGold said:


> is all of the responsibility on the bitch owners to pick a different dog?


Yes it is, like it or not.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Why would you do that?


How are we to avoid PSS then if no one (neither bitch owner nor stud owner) is saying "maybe this one has been used enough."?


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

The issue is that money is the foundation for everything, whether a breeder admits to it or not. 

Money from stud fees covers medical and veterinary bills, insurance, entry fees, etc. It covers losses from previous years, grooming fees and supplies, etcetera. Regardless of how much money a stud owner earns, there is ALWAYS ways to put it back into your dogs. Why a breeder deny a profitable business? Their dog is bettering the breed, assuming he is producing puppies (presumably) equal to or better than the dog itself-- there are no cons. Except, of course, the lack of diversity down the road... which would theoretically not be an issue if EVERY reputable breeder produced puppies at that same volume.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)




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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Hildae said:


> This begs another question...how many litters is too many? Should stud dog owners limit to 10 litters...20, 30?


No black and white answer for every situation. But look at the stud dog with 75 litters. He is in demand because he's a big winner in the conformation ring. So, it's show breeders who he most appeals to and who would typically use him. Most puppies would be placed in pet homes, but there could be one or two puppies in each litter who could finish. There are some litters that hit and you can see 4 or 5 puppies or more titled. Pretty impressive because it's rare, but it happens. If you have even 30% of the litters with a puppy who finishes, you could have more than a few dogs who go on to reproduce. If you do the math, it could be 3 generations and you have trouble finding a quality conformation dog who doesn't have that original stud in his pedigree. And there are some really fantastic dog who end up with a few sons who are used a lot. So now you have a LOT of dogs, related to this original sire. And they aren't all in show homes with responsible breeders. I cringe when I think about how many Goldens have PU and are in pet homes with this disease who have no idea that it should even be on their radar. Dog is in pain and no one knows because they don't know to do opthalmologist checks. I can't even think about the families who had a puppy with NCL and suffered through that. There are a lot of people who feel strongly this has shown up in litters in previous decades but was no one connected the dots.


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## JoyLev (5 mo ago)

All I can say is that I'm very new to even _thinking_ about breeding my female in the future and I've been stunned by how many pedigrees I've clicked on that share one or more common ancestors with my puppy. Perhaps it's worse with field goldens like my girl?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

SRW said:


> That can't possibly be true because it is never about the money.
> 
> 
> Yes it is, like it or not.


No one argues when the elephant makes sense.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

JoyLev said:


> All I can say is that I'm very new to even _thinking_ about breeding my female in the future and I've been stunned by how many pedigrees I've clicked on that share one or more common ancestors with my puppy. Perhaps it's worse with field goldens like my girl?


Oh it's not worse, it is just as much of a problem. But it's magnified because the elite level field dogs are a small pool. The pool for field is probably beyond repair for future generations. Unfortunately, if it's not about money it's about winning and ego.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

nolefan said:


> Unfortunately, if it's not about money it's about winning and ego.


It's defiantly not about the breed.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

JoyLev said:


> All I can say is that I'm very new to even _thinking_ about breeding my female in the future


You aren't supposed to be even thinking about it without first being mentored for a decade or two by an expert Golden breeder (self appointed). Left unchecked, people like you could expand the gene pool and erode the profit margins of puppy mills.
This is part of the unwritten rules of ethical breeding that applies only to Goldens and maybe French Bull Dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

nolefan said:


> No black and white answer for every situation. But look at the stud dog with 75 litters. He is in demand because he's a big winner in the conformation ring. So, it's show breeders who he most appeals to and who would typically use him. Most puppies would be placed in pet homes, but there could be one or two puppies in each litter who could finish. There are some litters that hit and you can see 4 or 5 puppies or more titled. Pretty impressive because it's rare, but it happens. If you have even 30% of the litters with a puppy who finishes, you could have more than a few dogs who go on to reproduce. If you do the math, it could be 3 generations and you have trouble finding a quality conformation dog who doesn't have that original stud in his pedigree. And there are some really fantastic dog who end up with a few sons who are used a lot. So now you have a LOT of dogs, related to this original sire. And they aren't all in show homes with responsible breeders. I cringe when I think about how many Goldens have PU and are in pet homes with this disease who have no idea that it should even be on their radar. Dog is in pain and no one knows because they don't know to do opthalmologist checks. I can't even think about the families who had a puppy with NCL and suffered through that. There are a lot of people who feel strongly this has shown up in litters in previous decades but was no one connected the dots.


One thing you didn't mention is where puppies ended up if the stud himself was sold to a foreign investor (China, Japan, etc), used by a foreign investor for pups, or pups were sold over there. 

I was talking to my dogs' breeder and she and I were mutually feeling sick when talking about CH dogs being sold overseas still despite all the horror stories from the 90's and current stuff.  Believe it or not, that bothers me more than PU and NCL which if dogs are placed in pet homes - YES it hurts more than with some show homes and it can damage a breeder's or stud dog owner's reputation sooner or later. 

If you consider people like X X and others - they were frantic when NCL hit, because it was in their lines. They had to act quickly to protect their stud dogs from further damage (test them, get pups tested, etc) and they had to come up with a future plan for letting their dogs be used. 

Some people went on complete tirades about zero tolerance for any skipped NCL's in breeding dogs, even though if one dog is a clear, you assume if the other were a carrier, it would be OK, etc. 

With stud dogs used by foreign entities/breeders, etc... and people from foreign countries with bad current events stuff regarding pets buying puppies or CH dogs outright.... it's not great.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

kjengold said:


> One breeder and stud dog owner I have admired is Alison Webb (was Desmarais), Mirasol Goldens, and the owner of Yogi (Am. CH OTCH CT; Can. CH Highmark Mirasol Once A Knight VCD4 UDX3 JH MX MXJ WC VCX OS SDHF OBHF). Anney can probably give more information, but from what I was told and observed, Alison was very conscientious when it came to studding out Yogi. If you look at the breeders she let use him, they're all respectable and conscientious as well. I believe Alison thought more of the betterment of the breed, than she did of making money off Yogi.


I agree with you and I think there is a good number of stud dog owners that are very conscientious about who uses their dogs. I guess my main point is that I think more stud dog owners should be like that for the sake of the breed.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

nolefan said:


> Bitch owners might never even check the information if they want to turn a blind eye, the final gatekeeper is the stud owner.


This is what I was getting at! One current dog that is all the rage is barely 5 years old and has already sired over 100 litters (according to one of his owners). I knew he was being used by a good number of breeders, but I didn’t realize the magnitude until his owner said he’d been used that many times. I’m guessing most of the people breeding to him had no idea as well.

There’s another dog that is 12 years old and has been used more than 60 times in his lifetime that I actually don’t think of as a popular stud. His use has been spread out across his lifetime instead of producing all 60+ between the ages of 2 and 5. I think that matters as far as diversity goes. I’m not entirely sure that there is a make or break number of litters - bottlenecks are also related to short term popularity of a stud, like a dog being used over 100 times in 3 years vs 65 in 10.

Anyway, I just brought this up because it’s been on my mind and I wanted to see what others thought. I don’t believe the responsibility for the long-term welfare of the breed lies solely on the owners of the bitches.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

I think it should be the responsibility of both but I think the reality of it lies with bitch owners. They are the decision makers that most impact the breed at the end of the day. They chose who to breed to and where puppies end up.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Alison (Webb) told me she declined over 500 stud inquiries for Yogi, which I completely believe. I think he was used relatively sparingly in relation to his accomplishments and value. He seems like a popular sire because Yogi puppies were in high demand and many went on to show/performance homes and in turn became outstanding producers themselves, so that ripples through pedigrees.
I'm thinking of two current stud dogs with 50-100 litters....
One is VERY pushed by his owner, to the point of obnoxiousness, but I think the dog is really pretty great and an outstanding producer and I can't really argue with why lots of people wanted to breed to him. 
The other, I simply don't get it. I think his popularity is an avalanche, a snowball rolling downhill. This person bred to him, so their friend bred to him. He also has a pedigree filled with very used sires in the first, second and third generation...it floors me that they can find so many bitches that aren't directly related to him, to breed to! 
Brix has probably had 20+ breedings, but it doesn't feel like he has a ton of offspring. He's six years old so that's 5 breedings a year, which feels accurate. Also doesn't feel like a lot. Bally I think has been used less, which is crazy, but whatever.
Being a stud dog owner is hard work, but that stud fee is nice and feels like a reward for all of your hard work put into dogs. It would be difficult to say no to a perfectly qualified bitch that comes to you, just on principle alone. I think ultimately it's up to bitch owners to think outside the box a little more!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Alison (Webb) told me she declined over 500 stud inquiries for Yogi, which I completely believe. I think he was used relatively sparingly in relation to his accomplishments and value. He seems like a popular sire because Yogi puppies were in high demand and many went on to show/performance homes and in turn became outstanding producers themselves, so that ripples through pedigrees.


Off topic, but something that comes up so often when discussing litters for X or Y purpose, I love looking at some of these older dogs and wondering if people today would have taken a pup (who turned out to be a HUGE dog in the breed). You look at Yogi and check his pedigree. Would today's obedience people have taken a pup from that litter? (Strider x Sister)???


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

It was just Alison who took a pup from that litter. His littermates were all pets. Linda Willard knows what she's doing, not sure of Alison's motivation for taking a pup but clearly it worked out. Yogi was truly one of a kind.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I'm talking a lot of noise about how I think stud dog owners should be more discerning, but let me tell you how I terrified I was of getting rejected. LOL I had to take a big deep breath before walking up and introducing myself to my chosen stud's owner at the National and was 1000% convinced she would say no. Even brought Eevee with me so she could see she's a nice bitch. 😅 She didn't say no, thank God!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> I'm talking a lot of noise about how I think stud dog owners should be more discerning


They should be and many are, at least they are in the field trial world.
The fact is they do not have to be and the reward for doing so is less money in their pocket.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

SRW said:


> They should be and many are, at least they are in the field trial world.
> The fact is they do not have to be and the reward for doing so is less money in their pocket.


Yea, but it’s not about the money, it’s about the breed right? 😉 

In all seriousness, I have enjoyed reading the opinions here. Thanks to all who commented!


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## bigbendgoldens (Feb 18, 2016)

Hildae said:


> Also, there is a FB group called "unknown golden stud dogs" to help people avoid PSS. Any dog advertised must be health tested per the GRCA COE. So that's hopeful too I suppose.


I wish more people used that group on Facebook


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

bigbendgoldens said:


> I wish more people used that group on Facebook


I follow it just because I enjoy seeing the dogs.


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