# At my Witt’s end!



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

It’s just obedience training. The part of your thread that stuck out to me was “he ignores my cries”. Keep him on a long line (20’). Let him explore and then call him back with “Here” or “come”, choose one. If he comes running reward with a treat, if he doesn’t it’s “No” and then “Here” and reel him in to you. I have a play voice and what everyone refers to as my “mean mom voice”. My dogs all stop when the mean mom voice comes out. I would also train “Sit”. If he will sit he can’t bolt. Go to class and keep going. One session will not get you a well trained dog, but it will help teach you. My puppies start obedience class at 12 weeks. 

You can fix this! It will take 15 minutes 3-4 times a day for short training sessions. E-collars do way more harm then good in inexperienced hands. I’m not anti e-collar. I use them for hunt training, but not basic obedience.


----------



## JulieCAinMA (Jun 19, 2020)

Yep, what DblTrblGolden2 said!


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

This is the part that caught my attention:


shanburr said:


> Every single time he gets a chance


Don't give him the chance. Ever. There is nothing to feel bad about having him on leash until he is fully trained. Keep him on a long line so that he can't ignore you. Call him and bring him in to you - and then treat and praise. Do it over and over at any opportunity. It will take a while but it's important training to do.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Will I ever ever be able to train him to stop and stay?
> 
> Is there hope at the other end of the teenage phase???


I'm going to say something very negative and I know there's gonna people who'll hate what I have to say here, but here goes....

Your dog is going to be 5+ years old before you get to let him off leash so he can run around your yard.... and not go stray. Age 7 is even better.

There will be people who tell you it is possible to let dogs be off leash way before that and all you have to do is work on obedience training - but they are not telling you the whole story. 

The trustworthy off leash dog hasn't just had enough obedience classes under his belt to "tame their inner wild beast".  Many of these dogs who you see out there who mind their borders and run back to their owners on first call - these are dogs who have no memory of what it's like to run away the instant they are off leash or loose. 

Many of the people who will tell you that obedience training solves all problems and tell you about their dogs who mind them.... these are experienced owners who are on their 3rd dog or whatnot. They know more than some obedience class instructors even when it comes to raising golden puppies. 

And I assure you that you will be the same way down the road when you have raised this dog and maybe the next one and know how to raise a golden puppy right the first time. 

Your dog right now has not had that advantage. He is currently the dog that will teach you everything you need to know for the next dog or the dog after that.... should you survive him.  

So right now, I would suggest you not compare him to other dogs. 

I would suggest you do what you can to bridge the gap. Do the obedience classes - from the position that they will help you work continuously with your dog through the rest of his life + teach you everything you need to know right from the start by the time you get the next pup in a couple years or more. 

Speaking as an experienced golden owner who grew up with the breed.... everything gets easier with the next dog, or the dog after that, or the dog after that. Sometimes you still have new problems pop up with future dogs, but those are problems which as you learn how to "fix them" with the guidance of instructor.... you know how to avoid those problems by the time you get the next dog. 

Right now with this dog - your game plan is to make sure he never gets off leash until down the road when he calms down and doesn't have the same run with the wind drive that he does right now. With golden retrievers, that typically means waiting until they are in that age range between middle aged and seniors.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

The two best things I have every heard about training are...

Always make the right choice for your dog easier than the wrong choice

and

Never train when you are angry/upset

This is a training issue and you are in complete control of being able to fix it with the suggestions above.


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

All the other posters are spot on, and I agree with everything Megora wrote. This isn't a dog problem, it's a human problem. He's not disobeying because he's a teenager, he's doing it because he hasn't been trained not to. Your dog is running away because you're giving him opportunities to do so, and he's not coming back (a) because you haven't trained a good recall and (b) because he knows from experience that he can ignore your commands when you give them.

Get him to obedience class, practice extensively, don't give him opportunities to run away, and don't give him opportunities to ignore you.

This isn't the right kind of use for an electronic collar. A wireless fence might help, but it's no substitute for training.

Best of luck. We've all been there and learned from it!


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I’m assuming Frankie isn’t neutered…is the “girlfriend” spayed? Because you are never, ever going to override an intact male pursuing a female in heat just with training. Ever. He would go through an underground fence seventeen times and never feel it…nature always wins, on that issue.

I know it’s super-expensive, but you really might want to invest in a physical, fenced in area so you at least have a place for him to exercise, fetch a ball and go to do his business outside without him practicing disappearing. And I would keep in touch with your neighbor regarding the female’s heat cycles because otherwise you are going to have a litter of backyard puppies on your hands, yes? Even with a fence, he wouldn’t be the first dog to figure out how to climb one in pursuit of love.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

shanburr said:


> Will I ever ever be able to train him to stop and stay?


If you are dedicated to training, of course.



shanburr said:


> I wonder beyond that is E-Collar or Wireless Fence the better solution


Wireless fences work on some dogs. If I had to bet on it, I'd say your pup would be half way to his girlfriends house before he realized he had been zapped.
An E-collar is not a solution it is a training aid. You do not teach with an e-collar, it is used to reinforce known commands and correct disobedience. Contrary to what some believe, average folks, like you and I, can and do learn to use e-collars properly and effectively. There are many resources available to help you learn how.
Here is one; Hawkeyemedia



Megora said:


> So right now, I would suggest you not compare him to other dogs.


Not right now and not ever, with any dog, that is one of the primary rules of dog training.


Megora said:


> these are experienced owners who are on their 3rd dog or whatnot. They know more than some obedience class instructors


Some obedience class instructors couldn't train a squirrel to collect nuts.


----------



## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Build a fence.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Noreaster said:


> I’m assuming Frankie isn’t neutered…is the “girlfriend” spayed? Because you are never, ever going to override an intact male pursuing a female in heat just with training. Ever. He would go through an underground fence seventeen times and never feel it…nature always wins, on that issue.


Here's another negative comment from me - 🦄 

This is generally completely false. 

I took my dogs to a show this weekend and like usual there were girlies in season all over the place there. You cannot show a dog in conformation unless they are intact. And yes, it is allowed to show girls in season. 

Guess what?  The boys had no idea until the wonderful spots where girlies dripped or sat were directly underfoot - and then the most I saw from my 3 year old was groveling and teeth chattering over the wonderful smell he had just discovered. A minute later he forgot about that as he remembered his breeder was standing right there with her dogs and he needed to resume happy spinnies and singing (because these dogs never forget their breeders). 

My baby (2 years old) still has no idea what is what and he never noticed any smells at all. In the next year he might discover smells are wonderful.... or he might not. Some boys are not as hormonal as others are. With their breeder around, I don't think Glee noticed anything else. 

These dogs like many or most can work off leash in obedience classes or trials even with girlies in season nearby. That is obedience + this breed being more biddable and people focused.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Megora said:


> Here's another negative comment from me - 🦄
> 
> This is generally completely false.
> 
> ...


100% agree with this. In field we train regularly with females in season. You are supposed to keep them home, but trust me people don’t always follow the rules. We work off lead. I normally know due to extra ground sniffing in the holding blind and some teeth chattering, if it’s really exciting a little drool. I have 3 intact males.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> 100% agree with this. In field we train regularly with females in season.


My training groups do also, as do all the field training groups I know of. Usually females in season run last on a training setup and don't start on the mat if one is being used. 
It is common courtesy for the owners to park downwind of the tests and other trucks. 

Field trials are a game of inches, so no females in season are allowed on the grounds.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Why do you feel guilty for keeping him on a leash?


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> Why do you feel guilty for keeping him on a leash?


I'd feel guilty if my dogs always had to be on a leash. A "designer breed" lap dog might be fine with it but it is no life for a well bred retriever.


----------



## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Megora said:


> The trustworthy off leash dog hasn't just had enough obedience classes under his belt to "tame their inner wild beast".  Many of these dogs who you see out there who mind their borders and run back to their owners on first call - these are dogs who have no memory of what it's like to run away the instant they are off leash or loose.


This. Besides being frustrating, its dangerous. If you live on a quiet country road, there's still nonzero chance this could happen when a car is driving by and the driver isn't paying attention. Or a million other circumstances. 

Having good recall is one of the most important and lifesaving commands your dog should know and you have to teach it and get it solid in all kinds of places and distracting situations and continue to reinforce it, for a dog not to have "selective hearing." Don't give him the opportunity to do this. Get a 30-50 ft long lead and practice in your yard. You'll know you have it down solid when he ignores very tempting distractions. 

How long it will take to stop the behavior will depend on how much work you put in, how consistent you are, and to some degree, the type of dog you have. But you can totally make it happen.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Fine. I will qualify my statement.

A typical amateur pet owner who has typical training skills and typical levels of time to devote to said training are highly unlikely to be able to train a typical intact dog sufficiently to override its mating instincts, especially when said dog has been practicing running to that female’s house on a regular basis.

Happy, oh Wondrous Experts?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Noreaster said:


> Fine. I will qualify my statement.
> 
> A typical amateur pet owner who has typical training skills and typical levels of time to devote to said training are highly unlikely to be able to train a typical intact dog sufficiently to override its mating instincts, especially when said dog has been practicing running to that female’s house on a regular basis.
> 
> Happy, oh Wondrous Experts?


Hmmm. 

There are different folks out there who tell pet owners that intact male dogs will X, Y, G,R,P - especially P....

And it is all designed to scare folks into neutering their pets. And get those same folks to repeat and enforce that same message.

Because the alternative is an animal that may spontaneously breed while exhibiting aggression and running for the hills because he smells a female in season 10 miles away.  Which doesn't happen, but you never know. _It might because gonads. 

Also, that is what happens in romance novels with werewolves (vague memory of 2000's YA romance fads) - _

Golden retrievers run to visit other dogs because they are social flowers and LOVE company. It's not all about mating instincts. Neutered and spayed dogs run to visit buddies all the time too.


----------



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Noreaster said:


> Fine. I will qualify my statement.
> 
> A typical amateur pet owner who has typical training skills and typical levels of time to devote to said training are highly unlikely to be able to train a typical intact dog sufficiently to override its mating instincts, especially when said dog has been practicing running to that female’s house on a regular basis.
> 
> Happy, oh Wondrous Experts?


Trust me I am no expert and didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. Every time I go to the line at a hunt test I pray that all the training has paid off. I consider myself a complete novice. I may not be to some of you, but a dog can humble a handler fast. We are all learning and training the best we can. I just don't think it's an intact issue, it is a training issue to me.


----------



## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Regardless of why the dog is running to the neighbor’s, it’s all a training issue anyway. My training plan for “dog running away” would probably be the same no matter the “why” (if my choices are “bitch in heat” or “friend”, I’m sure there is a situation where the “why” matters).


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> a dog can humble a handler fast.


I have seen National Field Champions do that.


----------



## shanburr (Feb 24, 2021)

ArkansasGold said:


> Why do you feel guilty for keeping him on a leash?


The pure enjoyment of a well trained dog playing and running free is sadly something Frankie won’t see for a long long time because we don’t have a yard suitable for a physical fence. When he does get to zip around in my friends fenced yard he acts like quite the quirky character! A side of his personality I rarely see on a leash.


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

shanburr said:


> The pure enjoyment of a well trained dog playing and running free is sadly something Frankie won’t see for a long long time because we don’t have a yard suitable for a physical fence. When he does get to zip around in my friends fenced yard he acts like quite the quirky character! A side of his personality I rarely see on a leash.


Aren't there any wide open places in Canada where you can walk him off lead?


----------



## shanburr (Feb 24, 2021)

Blueberry the blue heeler is quite a draw for sure. They have played as puppies from day one and are the same age. Love at first bite haha. Frankie and Blueberry are spayed and neutered. 

Frankie is my first dog with children.

My past two dogs were very well trained and reliable, I always received compliments. I would not say this is my first dog but my first with kids and competing demands.

I do keep him leashed at all times. This week the line snapped where he had chewed it (off he went), and before that my 4 year old opened the door not even thinking. I am re-training myself, two kiddos and Frankie at once!

thanks for sharing and your input! A lot of good laughs and stories here for sure haha. Im excited to start the training classes with the distractions of other dogs in the class.


----------



## shanburr (Feb 24, 2021)

SRW said:


> Aren't there any wide open places in Canada where you can walk him off lead?


YES!!!! We have 200 acres that we play on in the summer and winter, and spend weekends camping (boat in and stay on our own island).


----------



## shanburr (Feb 24, 2021)

At home I live in a recreational trail that ATVs and hikers use and I prefer he is always leashed in case he tries to chase them. 

Here’s Frankie at work with me. He comes to work 1-2 days a week and we practice walking in town and around other people and dogs.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

shanburr said:


> The pure enjoyment of a well trained dog playing and running free is sadly something Frankie won’t see for a long long time because we don’t have a yard suitable for a physical fence. When he does get to zip around in my friends fenced yard he acts like quite the quirky character! A side of his personality I rarely see on a leash.


He is only 8 months old. He's still a baby in a big body. Cut him and yourself some slack. That well trained dog you're imagining is and never will be an 8 month old puppy. If I was in your situation, I wouldn't let my dog off leash either. I would probably keep this imaginary dog on a long line until it was at least 2 years old, depending on the dog. It's kinda like crating when you're not home: some dogs earn their freedom early in life and never tear anything up, but most probably should be crated until they are at the very least 18 months old, if not 2 years. 

It sounds like Frankie does still have a full and enriching life. You're doing a great job. Just work on those recalls, and maybe even start working in some sort of specific verbiage for when he *is *allowed to go see precious Miss Blueberry.


----------



## shanburr (Feb 24, 2021)

Great idea to teach Frankie a "Blueberry Time!" command. haha

So... I DID go ahead and purchase the PetFence Wireless system. I plan to do the training slowly and carefully. I won't let him off leash for quite a long time; BUT I plan to use the wireless fenced zone around my home for a LOT of supervised play time and training time. Frankie boy will be super solid on recall by spring. (EDIT: Ill buy and use a long line until he's solid on the system. Im not trusting the 14 day reccomendation... i'm thinking more like 8 weeks minimum. We will see.)

I am so impressed with how far Frankie has come. Today he did Sit + Stay (he did not chase the cats), and he held it while I fed BOTH cats wet food in front of him... this took a good 10-15 minutes. I then rewarded him with release and his own wet food.


----------

