# How close is to close?



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

There are a lot of questions to answer before this one can be answered. How open are the pedigrees other than Stanley Steamer? I would suggest putting the pedigree on k9data and waiting to see what the COI is. I also use genetic influence tables, like those done by Linda Bell.

And, since you are doing the right thing by planning ahead , now is the time to start talking to people about any skeletons in the pedigree, esp behind Stanley Steamer if he is the one common factor in both pedigrees.

You can also research clearances and longevity on k9data.

This is the first dog you are checking out, so make sure and look at others before making a decision. Look at offspring too. Once a dog is old enough to have produced several litters, I look at the offspring more than I do the dog himself. Is he producing better than himself, or less? What lines does he do best when bred to?

Also, your dog's breeder and the owner of her father may be the best ones to talk to and find out what their experience has been.

You have your work cut out for you, but you are starting in good time


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here are the COI's as listed in K9data:

*10-generation COI **11.81%*
*12-generation COI **12.86%*

*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
AFC Holway Barty OS 2.76%
AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS 1.74%
Porjay's Sydney CDX MH WCX OD 1.67%
Wraith's Duncan MH *** OS 0.64%
Hunter's Moon Madcap ***OD 0.61%


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

DNL2448 said:


> Here are the COI's as listed in K9data:
> 
> *10-generation COI **11.81%*
> *12-generation COI **12.86%*
> ...


Is this the COI from a breeding between your girl and the stud? If so, the overal COI is not bad. A genetic influence table will give you additional information by showing the amount of influence individual dogs have (theoretically, anyway).

You can use that information along with your "fact-finding" to help you make a decision.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Duplicate post.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where would I find information on the genetic influence table? Yes, that is Breeze and Kelty. 

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=279806


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

You could contact Linda Bell at

[email protected]

She is definitely the expert on genetic influence tables, and I believe is very reasonable in her prices.

I learned to do them by hand many many years ago but now most of the pedigree programs run them. Basically, they look at all dogs on boths sides of the pedigree for as far back as possible (usually 10-12 generations), unlike the COI. For example, the genetic influence of the sire is (theoretically) 50%, grand sire 25%, great-grand sire 12.5% and so on. It of course becomes more complicated the more times a particular dog appears in the pedigree. Fascinating to see how dogs which are pretty far back in the pedigree can move up in genetic influence based on how many times they appear in the pedigree.

My old girl Susan B was a mystery to me-I could not, for the life of me, figure out where her head came from! She was (and is) a beautifully constructed bitch who just floats when she moves, but has a plain head and is not a typey, modern bitch. Looking at the genetic influence table, I could see that Tillie, Ch Libra Lady Carioca OD, was a very strong influence. Asking around, I was able to find that Tillie did not have the best head but had wonderful structure and gait. I found a picture of her online and darn if Susan B didn't look almost identical to her


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I will second evrything Linda said about Linda Bell and her influence tables. I have had her do a couple for me over the years and found them very interesting and informative.
As for the pedigree you posted to me it does not look overly "close". However those numbers only make up 25% of the equation. The other 75% is the dogs that make up that number. You need to research them and see if they are any skeletons hanging in the closet. Then you have to decide if thhe breeding is "too close" for your comfort level. There are breedings that have COI of 5% that I would not go near and others in the 10%-15% range that I would be very comfortable with.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Well, they are cousins, so technically that is inbreeding. 
However as others have said, the point is not the COI, it's what the dogs themselves represent, what traits they carry.
I will say that the field trial golden population is small enough as it is -- where do you go after this with the next generation? Something to consider.


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