# Planting when walking



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

He is very young and this is normal....I am a big advocate of obedience classes for puppies and owners and using a prong collar for training. Although, many disagree with me, in the many obedience classes I have participated in all but one taught us to use these tools for training. Only one class did not, they recommended clickers and harness, which did not work as well for us....


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Rachel Cowley said:


> Hi everyone,
> Our golden puppy is about 4.5 months old. We're working on loose leash training and he's getting it slowly. The problem is that when he sees people (or sometimes wants to eat some crap off the floor) he just plants his feet and won't move. No amount of treats or me acting like an (exciting) idiot will prise his attention away...or if it does it's only brief. He's good when he meets them but it causes problems if people are walking behind and we usually end up having to wait until they pass to get going again!
> Any advice?
> Thanks,


What treats are you using? You might want to use SUPER high value for when he plants himself, give him a taste of cooked chicken liver or liverwurst. Just a tiny bit, it's very rich stuff. My dogs have turned summersaults for liver or liverwurst.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

NO PRONG COLLAR EVER. Yes, I am yelling!!! 

Have treats with you and reward him for walking. Every few steps, give him a treat. If he stops, pull him away. I do that, then I say "Let's walk" and once he's taken a few steps with his focus on me, I give a treat.

It was kind of a toss up about when to give the treat. I didn't want to use it to lure him because then it becomes a 'trick'...if I stop, I get a treat. So I decided on making him move and re-establish our walking and THEN treat. 

We about 3 weeks behind you in age.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

All but one? That's absurd and totally not the way to train Golden Retrievers. I'm sure many classes for GSD or pitties or those types of breeds might recommend pronged collars but no reputable Golden trainer would use anything other than a flat collar with buckle or snap. No harnesses either.



goldlover68 said:


> He is very young and this is normal....I am a big advocate of obedience classes for puppies and owners and using a prong collar for training. Although, many disagree with me, in the many obedience classes I have participated in all but one taught us to use these tools for training. Only one class did not, they recommended clickers and harness, which did not work as well for us....


----------



## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

When Kenzie was a puppy she would do this sometimes. Luckily she did it in obedience class as well and my trainer said I was too timid walking her. She told me to try walking like I was late for the bus. For us that actually worked. It was changing my energy into we are on a mission vs just out for a stroll. I think it made Kenzie have to focus on me


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Just to clarify a bit. I use treats for our entire walk because Goldens are notorious butt planters. I use the "pull" to handle hesitations so his attention stays on me.

Other walks are on a long line (not a flexi lead) and he's allowed to snoop and sniff all he wants. When he plants his butt, he's allowed to sit and think or look around. And sometimes he's done, we turn around and go back home. I don't use treats on those walks.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I also *totally disagree* with using a prong collar on a young puppy. Clicker training and treats work for us. 

If you are planning on taking the CGC or CGCA with your dog eventually, prong collars are expressly disallowed.


----------



## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Harry is a notorious butt planter on our walks. He is almost 18 months so I've learned to spot the signs that he is going to sit down. We generally walk on a pretty short lead, however, when I see someone coming I shorten it even more and pick up the pace. If I am too slow and he begins to sit, I turn and start walking the other way or make him walk in a tight circle with me. That generally gets his mind off whoever is approaching and focused on me. That being said, there are still times that he plants his rear end and we have to wait so my social butterfly can be acknowledge by whoever is passing by.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

This thread reminds me so much of Penny. She would plant her butt and REFUSE to move. The first time she did it was in our own backyard:doh:

When I tugged ever so gently on the leash; gently because mommy wuvs you so much, she went to a down position. When I tugged with a little more frustration, she rolled over onto her side. When I PULLED as in "you're coming darnit" she allowed me to drag her, on her side, by the collar. It became apparent within a foot or two that I needed a new strategy. 

She was an amazing girl. :smooch:


----------



## Rachel Cowley (Dec 23, 2013)

Ok thanks guys, 
So in summary I'll try a higher value treat, keeping the pace up and shorter leash when people are approaching. I don't want to use a pronged collar and use a harness because he would just totally choke himself with a normal collar and I couldn't do any of the leash training. the harness is working and he's not really pulling now - different horses for different courses I suppose.
Helps to know this is a 'thing', they're just so interested in everything at this age. I did consider going somewhere really busy with him more, to 'desensitise' as we live in a quiet village.
The last comment about the social butterfly golden made me laugh, I think I have one of those too! - it could be worse!


----------



## Rachel Cowley (Dec 23, 2013)

Hahaha I have definitely been there Penny's mom!


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

We live in a quiet village too. In Michigan, USA. I take our new puppy, Mr. Darcy, to shopping centers and puppy kindergarten. Also to stores...some stores allow dogs if they ride in carts. I put a blanket in the bottom of the cart to protect his paws and he stands up, facing forward. I call it his "Titanic" pose. lol

Another thing I do is for meeting his adoring public, I get down on his level with a finger on his collar. It helps prevent so much jumping on people. The more you get him out and about, the better he will be.


----------



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Penny's Mom said:


> All but one? That's absurd and totally not the way to train Golden Retrievers. I'm sure many classes for GSD or pitties or those types of breeds might recommend pronged collars but no reputable Golden trainer would use anything other than a flat collar with buckle or snap. No harnesses either.


Are you being "civil enough with these comments"....just kidding!

I got some news for you....in Field Training 'Most' professional trainers use pinch collars, or choke collars, and E collars....and we are talking 1,000's of professional trainers who have long histories of champion dogs....I would say easily 90%! I have been working in with my dogs in field work for over 25 years....I am not a professional trainer, but I know many and have trained with quite a few....

I respect that you choose not to use them, but that does not make you right! I disagree with you and I know many others would!


----------



## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I am one to agree with Penny's mom and I think you will be hard pressed trying to find somebody here on GRF that agrees with a prong collar for a puppy. In fact, I personally would not use it on an adult either - I would not even think of buying a prong collar, an electric collar or any such harsh devices. 

I have been able to train all my dogs over the years - since 1984 without the harsh devices and just with love and patience. Sometimes I think - and I will probably get fussed at by somebody for this - I think often people will go to harsher devices for training because they are the ones actually lacking the knowledge and patience to train a dog properly.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

She's talking about her 4.5 month old PUPPY. I doubt any of those trainers would suggest that for a PUPPY. Maybe you missed that part.

Field training differs TOTALLY from puppy or obedience training and is introduced when the dog has some basics under it's collar. Poor little guy is just learning to walk on a leash for Heaven's sake. 



goldlover68 said:


> Are you being "civil enough with these comments"....just kidding!
> 
> I got some news for you....in Field Training 'Most' professional trainers use pinch collars, or choke collars, and E collars....and we are talking 1,000's of professional trainers who have long histories of champion dogs....I would say easily 90%! I have been working in with my dogs in field work for over 25 years....I am not a professional trainer, but I know many and have trained with quite a few....
> 
> I respect that you choose not to use them, but that does not make you right! I disagree with you and I know many others would!


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

You're right. There is no substitute for patience and training. Her training experiences are not appropriate for a baby dog. And even field trainers don't go first to a 'device' to get compliance. They prefer the dog offer the correct behavior. 



cgriffin said:


> I am one to agree with Penny's mom and I think you will be hard pressed trying to find somebody here on GRF that agrees with a prong collar for a puppy. In fact, I personally would not use it on an adult either - I would not even think of buying a prong collar, an electric collar or any such harsh devices.
> 
> I have been able to train all my dogs over the years - since 1984 without the harsh devices and just with love and patience. Sometimes I think - and I will probably get fussed at by somebody for this - I think often people will go to harsher devices for training because they are the ones actually lacking the knowledge and patience to train a dog properly.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Generally, I don't argue in threads but this is an important one because so many inexperienced puppy parents read here, looking for help and advice.

It's really important that the use of harsh devices be put into the proper context. Field training is a whole nuther sport from household pet, agility, therapy, obedience trial.

The last thing we need is to leave a newcomer with the idea that pinch collars work on 'stubborn' puppies. So I will continue to argue my point.


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

OP - Consider bring other rewards on the walks with you. My Bear will grow tired of treats at a point, but once we introduced a rope toy and a small squeaker stuffy, I can consistently get him more focused on me, than the surroundings.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Brave, that reminds me of one of our walks last week. Finally getting a little spring like here. He stopped and was looking and looking, this way and that. I stopped too and wondered who has all the squeaky toys out. It was birds chirping in the distance...sounded just like squeaky toys.

Good suggestion for Rachel. I'm going to use it too. ;-)


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

After reading another post, I have to make one more point. The suggestion for a pronged collar was made based on SEEING trainers use it. 

There is a huge difference between an experienced trainer introducing a harsh device and the average pet owner. Professional trainers are paid for results no matter how they get them. Same in the 40 years of showing horses...results are what count when you're paying a trainer. ( I don't have my horses in training, they are home with me)


----------



## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Penny's Mom said:


> All but one? That's absurd and totally not the way to train Golden Retrievers. I'm sure many classes for GSD or pitties or those types of breeds might recommend pronged collars but no reputable Golden trainer would use anything other than a flat collar with buckle or snap. No harnesses either.


 
Please be careful in generalizing about what a "reputable" trainer would or would not recommend. Perhaps you do not recommend them but I know of a number of trainers - both pros and amatures that regularly use pinch collars. I am also sure that some of the GSD or Pit owners might take offense at your impression of their breed but that is for another forum I think.

As for pinch collars - they are like any other training tool. A tool should be used according to the directions and the user should understand what it can and cannot do. They are not magic and simply putting them on the dog will not cause him to do anything differently nor will it cause damage in and of itself. It is how the handler uses it that can effect change. Flat buckle collars can cause damage if used incorrectly.

Personally, I think the op's dog is giving her 'the paw'. He is controlling the walk and deciding when and where to go - or in this case where not to go. It is the other side of the coin for the dog that pulls and drags his owner down the street. I like the suggestion about changing the walkers attitude and walking like you are late for the bus. That no-nonsense, "we have to get there" energy can do wonders for a dog that thinks the walk is all about him or her. The worse thing to do is to let the dog win and sit there until he or she decides to go. Last I checked, I am the owner and I get to pick when, where, and how fast we walk - period. Perhaps it is my attitude but I have never had a pup that tried the lay down and play dead trick more than once. A few quick leash corrections (no slow drag) and I pick up the pace. They always join me, and usually pretty quickly.

Dragging, or being dragged, or held hostage as a pups sits and waits are signs that more training is needed for both the dog and the owner. Personally, I love training and can't wait to learn more so that I can be a better dog owner.


----------



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Penny's Mom said:


> She's talking about her 4.5 month old PUPPY. I doubt any of those trainers would suggest that for a PUPPY. Maybe you missed that part.
> 
> Field training differs TOTALLY from puppy or obedience training and is introduced when the dog has some basics under it's collar. Poor little guy is just learning to walk on a leash for Heaven's sake.


Nope, wrong again....all of our dogs have attended obedience classes with my wife and I as soon as the shots were done enough to be safe...usually around 12 weeks. In each class, except 1 in the last 20+ years we have went to local obedience trainers, not field trainers, and recommended and taught all beginning obedience with pinch collars! All but 1, as I originally said! 

The use of ecollars only starts, after they are around 7-8 months when their early field training is started with a pro field trainer....we also always force fetch our dogs.....but that is another story...

To all of you that never use these 'harsh' training tools....I am wondering how many agility titles, obedience titles, and field titles you have earned with your dogs?

I know a few trainers that use clickers and harnesses to train the dogs for these games....but almost all I have worked with use prong collars or choke collars.....

Just curious.....by the way, if you have not watched a Golden's run a field trial, hunt test, agility trial, or obedience test...then you have never seen a happier golden...they are bred to work, and when they are working they shine...! It cost us lots of money, but when you see your dogs run...it is all worth it!


----------



## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Penny's Mom said:


> Generally, I don't argue in threads but this is an important one because so many inexperienced puppy parents read here, looking for help and advice.
> 
> It's really important that the use of harsh devices be put into the proper context. Field training is a whole nuther sport from household pet, agility, therapy, obedience trial.
> 
> The last thing we need is to leave a newcomer with the idea that pinch collars work on 'stubborn' puppies. So I will continue to argue my point.


Again, I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion. Field is not a different sport. The most important elements of field training are "sit" and "here". Sounds a lot like obedience to me. Not that long ago I went to a field seminar where the trainer - a pro and a vet - stated that the most important element of field training is OBEDIENCE. She went so far as to state that it is 90% of the game. I would agree. 

I gather that you might agree that obedience is key to agility, rally and huh, obedience. As for "just" family pets I think that most families want a dog that obeys them. We often get new families join our training club. The dog does a great job with the retrieve but wont come or sit or walk politely on a leash. These are all tasks that a family pet should be able to do. The owners are always embarassed about their dogs lack of manners.

The foundation work of all obedience is laid down between 12 and 20 weeks. It is not about being harsh or mean. It is about setting boundaries with what is aceptable and what is not. Puppies are sponges at this stage and learn very quickly. Unfortunately, they learn bad habits just as quickly as they learn good ones. Tools like crates, leashes, pinch collars, heeling sticks, long lines, are about SHORTENING the learning curve for the basics so we can move on to the advanced work eventually. IMO a pup that is stuck learning leash manners for weeks or months because his or her owner wont seek help is cheated of the opportunity of moving on to learn the fun stuff. It can be time that is never recovered.

Last I believe that labeling training tools as harsh or evil or bad do a disservice to the newer members of this forum. They are tools and nothing more. A newer member might be shamed by your comments and afraid to seek help to correctly use them or feel bad because they do use them. 

We are here to help each other and that means offering a variety of ways to approach a problem and not criticizing anothers choices in training tools.


----------



## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

One last thing - we use pinch collars and ecollars with our dogs and someday I am going to do a video of what any of our dogs do when they see the collar. They dance and jump and wiggle and can hardly wait to get that collar on. For the dogs that collar means that we are going to do fun things and they can hardly wait to get started.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

OP, are you a pet parent or are you wanting to do field and hunt work? It seems to me that the average pet parent has no need for pinch and prong collars when a few simple training techniques would work.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

It's not that unusual for experienced trainers to recommend a prong collar for puppies. Their thinking is that if the collar is put on when the dog is young, he will teach himself not to pull. These trainers aren't saying give pops and pulls on the collar, just put it on the pup, and he learns that if he puts pressure on his leash he feels the collar, and when the leash is loose he doesn't feel it.

I haven't really needed to use a prong on my current puppy, he's just such a good boy and doesn't really pull any. But if I could go back and do it over with Flip I'd have had a prong collar on him at a young age to allow him to teach himself some self control early on.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I will restate that my statements are for the benefits of others reading this thread. Every dog trainer uses different methods for different reasons. Hopefully they are educated in the introduction and use of the methods and devices they choose.

Just like watching Cesar Milan...some new puppy parent might read this thread and think" I have the same problem". I'll get a pronged collar and put it on my pup. How dangerous it is to do something like that with no instructions or guidelines. THAT'S what I'm addressing. Without proper skills to use any training method, it can lead to abuse and torture for the dog. 

A pronged collar is not the first remedy for the average puppy and handler.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

That's because you use the right collar in the right way, at the right time, for the right reason. You didn't run out to a pet store at the first sign of a problem and slap it on them. That's my issue...newcomers and lurkers will misread the suggestion.



Leslie B said:


> One last thing - we use pinch collars and ecollars with our dogs and someday I am going to do a video of what any of our dogs do when they see the collar. They dance and jump and wiggle and can hardly wait to get that collar on. For the dogs that collar means that we are going to do fun things and they can hardly wait to get started.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't know, I think for the average pet owner, the prong collar is the safest tool they can use for a pulling dog until it learns not to pull. I see so many pets straining into buckle collars, gagging and choking themselves. Buckle collars, slip collars, harnesses, and head halters can all cause physical damage to a strong pulling dog. If they have the ability through training to prevent the dog from ever pulling in the first place, that is great, but most average pet owners don't.

True, a person could start yanking and jerking hard on a prong collar, but if the person thought they should do that with a prong collar, they probably think it should be done on other collars too. And those other collars are much more likely to damage a dog if being jerked on. Which is why I think the prong is the safest tool overall for a pulling dog.


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

If I walk into a puppy training class and the instructor suggested a prong collar or a shock collar, I would literally walk out before she finished the sentence. For me, training a puppy is about joy, consistency, building a bond, patience, repetition. An 8 week old puppy can be taught the basics with a clicker. More advanced concepts can be taught with a clicker, time, consistency, and an adequate supply of fried chicken livers or liverwurst. I prefer that arguably slower process than to inflict pain on a dog, especially a puppy. I prefer him to be joyful in our journey together and know I won't inflict pain on him. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

So well said, Lilliam. Thank you. 



Lilliam said:


> If I walk into a puppy training class and the instructor suggested a prong collar or a shock collar, I would literally walk out before she finished the sentence. For me, training a puppy is about joy, consistency, building a bond, patience, repetition. An 8 week old puppy can be taught the basics with a clicker. More advanced concepts can be taught with a clicker, time, consistency, and an adequate supply of fried chicken livers or liverwurst. I prefer that arguably slower process than to inflict pain on a dog, especially a puppy. I prefer him to be joyful in our journey together and know I won't inflict pain on him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I could not, for the life of me, shock a little fuzz ball like this or use a collar pinching into its neck when results are this easy to achieve. 

http://youtu.be/22TGaHIONys

http://youtu.be/DayHrhoSJZc


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Puppy trainers, in initial obedience, "NEVER" use e collars...

Again, I respect those of you that choose not to train with, pinch collars. 

Those of us that use these collars for training, see this process differently than you do, because we have actually used them with professional trainers for training. In my mind it does not make any of us 'right' or 'wrong'.....

I want to thank Leslie B, Loisana, and others for jumping in here and sharing their thoughts, I am passionate about these posts about training, so that new owners get a larger perspective on what options are out their. Too many people influence new owners without acknowledging that other accepted training methods exist. This type of discussion can also helps avoid that terrible situation where someone has a difficult puppy to train and they go buy a choke chain or pinch collar to fix their bad little puppy (with no professional training). This happens because people just have limited knowledge on dog training experience. 

*I asked a question earlier to those who absolutely oppose pinch collars, no answers yet....I am wondering how many agility titles, obedience titles, and field titles you have earned with your dogs?*


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

goldlover68 said:


> Puppy trainers, in initial obedience, "NEVER" use e collars...
> 
> Again, I respect those of you that choose not to train with, pinch collars.
> 
> ...


I'll answer that. I haven't earned any titles with my dog, because our purpose has never been to compete in any of those venues. 
I'm not sure why that has any bearing on my thoughts that those kind of training tools, in inexperienced hands, can be misused and cause more harm than good. I'm not talking about experienced trainers, but I hate to see someone who has a normal, rambunctious Golden puppy, and limited patience, go buy an e-collar or a prong collar and use it as a way to force the behaviors they want.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

You have missed my entire point. If you want to take what I am saying as personal criticism of you, by all means continue.

I have stated repeatedly that my audience in the new puppy parent with little or no experience. Yours was the first response and it said "Pronged collar". That is not what we try first when dealing with a 4.5 month old puppy. And not what we use without expert guidance and training.

I don't see how any of my points relate to you or your trainer or your sport.

I have said what I came here to say. I believe I write clearly enough to have made my point without further argument with anyone.


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

goldlover68 said:


> Puppy trainers, in initial obedience, "NEVER" use e collars...
> 
> Again, I respect those of you that choose not to train with, pinch collars.
> 
> ...


I have won several sheepdog trials with my border collies. I have competed at the USBCHA level in Nursery and Open, which demands a 500-600 yard outrun.

I have not won any titles on Max in field because I *choose* not to put a shock collar on my dog, and my opposition to such a tool is of more importance to me than three letters at the end of his name. 

I don't do agility and I don't do obedience. You can read up USBCHA competitions and compare then to field trials. I believe you may find them comparable. http://nationalsheepdogfinals.org/sheepdogtrials.html

MOST IMPORTANT than any titles or competitions is my refusal to inflict pain on my dog.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Where does the OP state they are interested in getting agility, field, obedience or hunt titles?
My answer relates to a pet parent training. 

My dog obtained his CGC and is working towards his CGCA. These are also titles according to the AKC and I am happy we did it without aversive training or methods.


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Oh! And to add.....I am getting a german shepherd dog when my Billy leaves me. He will also be trained in sheepherding AND in schutzhund. And I will *not* use shock collars or prong collars on my german shepherd dog.

I *am* late in my plans for Max. There were changes in my life that threw all my training plans in disarray. Life happens. When I do train Max for his CGC and animal assisted therapy, it will also be done without shock collars or prongs. 

I will not put a shock collar on a dog of mine any more than I would put a shock collar on a child.

Titles and initials at the end of a name obtained through pain for my dog are abhorrent to me and are meaningless in how I choose to live my life with my dog. Titles and initials don't provide the full measure of a dog's worth nor do they measure the trainability of a dog. 

If that is the measure of the worth of a dog, then I am proud to say I have never nor will I ever make my dog worthy if it means inflicting pain on him.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think people can be too quick to lump all use of a tool as being cruel and painful. Most training tools can be used with real finesse to bring a higher level of clarity of communication to the dog. Just because a tool CAN be used in other ways doesn't mean they have to be.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I think people can be too quick to lump all use of a tool as being cruel and painful. Most training tools can be used with real finesse to bring a higher level of clarity of communication to the dog. Just because a tool CAN be used in other ways doesn't mean they have to be.


I think the point here wasn't that they COULDN'T be used with finesse, but that for the most part, an inexperienced person will most likely not have the *knowledge *to use them that way. That, I believe, was the point Penny's Mom made, and others have reiterated since.

ANY tool can work - but I prefer something that makes me and my dog both feel good about what we're doing.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think there were two different lines of thought going on: inexperienced people might not know how to use them, and prong collars are evil. I was responding to the latter.


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

*My* point is that *I* will not put a prong collar or a shock collar on *my* dog since it is unnecessary and there are other ways to accomplish the same thing without resorting on causing pain on a puppy or a dog. Further, I will provide all the information I can find to show new puppy owners that there *are* training methods that do not cause pain. When faced with a new puppy owner requesting information about training, I will direct to Pat Miller certified trainers over shock collar trainers. 
http://www.peaceablepaws.com/referrals.php?type=pmctReferral

EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. 

Because there is research that supports positive reinforcement in training as opposed to punishment, shock, pinch, and pain.

http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=254

http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=172


For behavioural problems I will direct to behaviourists who do *not* inflict pain on dogs.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Lilliam, I agree with you totally. I feel I am in a partnership with my dog and with my horse. Each gives me what he can. It's up to me to bring out the best in him thru careful training and humane treatment. 

I will never go to Nationals with my horse; I probably will never ever have a big win because I'm not willing to do to my horse what a trainer would do to achieve that big win or national win. It just isn't worth it to me. I am totally content with the relationship rather than the competition. Any competing I do is for fun and only for fun. If we get into obedience trials or agility, it will be because Mr. Darcy wants to to. Penny was a dog who didn't want to do anything except hang out with me. All the "plans" I had for what I would do with my Golden went right out the window. She was what she was and that was good enough for me. I loved for who she was. She spent every day at my side, was trained by me and I miss her every day. I found out that that is how I want to be with Mr. Darcy. At my side. Win or lose.


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Penny's Mom said:


> Lilliam, I agree with you totally. I feel I am in a *partnership* with my dog and with my horse. Each gives me what he can. It's up to me to bring out the best in him thru careful training and humane treatment.
> 
> I will never go to Nationals with my horse; I probably will never ever have a big win because I'm not willing to do to my horse what a trainer would do to achieve that big win or national win. It just isn't worth it to me. I am totally content with the relationship rather than the competition. Any competing I do is for fun and only for fun. If we get into obedience trials or agility, it will be because Mr. Darcy wants to to. Penny was a dog who didn't want to do anything except hang out with me. All the "plans" I had for what I would do with my Golden went right out the window. She was what she was and that was good enough for me. I loved for who she was. She spent every day at my side, was trained by me and I miss her every day. I found out that that is how I want to be with Mr. Darcy. At my side. Win or lose.


That's the key word. I want a dog to partner up with me, not to submit to me.

The whole what-title-have-you-put-on-your-dog was just....whatever. No, I've got no titles on Max and I will not get any titles on him so long as the dominant ideology is that dogs must be zapped into being able to work as gun dogs. How they manage it in the UK, without zapping, is beyond me. Paul tells me they're not used there. My grandfather never shocked or pinched his pointers or his setter. 

About titles, because this really chapped my hide....Max is my first golden retriever. Before him I had border collies.

I put titles on Cassie, who won her first Novice-Novice trial at 18 months with a silent gather - meaning she fetched the sheep to me without one single command. That was as a result of instinct AND training. And THAT was my first dog. She titled in USBCHA and AHBA trials and went as far as Pro Novice. She did not make it to Open because her dysplasia and then her surgery cost a lot of time and she lost valuable ground.

My second dog Dru went to the USBCHA *NATIONAL FINALS** at the age of two and a half*. He trialed and titled in AKC, AHBA, AND USBCHA. We entered Open and we mastered the shed, where a specific number of ewes decided by the judge must be cut away from the rest. THAT was intense and required A LOT of work. Dru's outruns were epic, his lift was impeccable, and his drive was spectacular. Dru was the ranch dog that could handle 500 heads of Ramboulliet ewes, each weighing around 500 lbs AND rams AND lambs. Dru ran on cattle but I pulled him because I didn't want to risk injury that would come from a kick from an angry cow. And all of this was accomplished without one single solitary shock nor one single solitary prong collar.

My third dog is Billy and he never trialed because he was a gift to my ex husband and he was, plainly put, clueless. But I trained him so precisely that he was able to work as a school dog, set out dog where he set out the sheep at trials, and exhaust dog, where he managed the ewes after each run. Billy has never worn a shock collar and he has never worn a prong collar. Had Billy been my dog only, and had my husband's ego not gotten in the way, Billy would have competed in Open because he had a 600 yard outrun. All he lacked was the shed.

All this training was done without one single shock or prong. It was accomplished by patient, steady, consistent training. And if we blew something, we went one or two or three steps back and retrained what he missed. None of my dogs were shocked into submission. None of my dogs had prongs dug into their necks. 

So....to answer the question again....yah....I've trained dogs in areas that required A LOT of precision and required A LOT of skill. And yes I've won titles and I've won trials AGAINST professionals. Me, a suburbanite, beat ranchers. And not one single shock to be had. 

The implication that the only way to title a dog is through shocking and pinching is insulting to anyone on this forum who has used postive methods to bring the best out of their dogs. To imply that those who may not have titled a golden retriever have no experience in training or have no knowledge of training or have not accomplished anything in training becomes more insulting the more I think about it.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Lilliam, I think you would like the Jon Katz books, if you haven't discovered them already. They are amazingly sensitive and wonderfully written. They do delve somewhat into his depression but that backdrop provides the continuity he has with his dogs. 
Author Jon Katz Shares His Books & Journal Entries | Titles Such as Dog Days, Rose in a Storm and Out of the Shadows | Bedlam Farm Journal


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Penny's Mom said:


> Lilliam, I think you would like the Jon Katz books, if you haven't discovered them already. They are amazingly sensitive and wonderfully written. They do delve somewhat into his depression but that backdrop provides the continuity he has with his dogs.
> Author Jon Katz Shares His Books & Journal Entries | Titles Such as Dog Days, Rose in a Storm and Out of the Shadows | Bedlam Farm Journal


There's actually a lot of controversy with Jon Katz from trainers, especially from those who prefer to train all positive. I know many who absolutely despise him, his training, and his relationship with his dogs.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't know why these conversations always turn in the direction of relationships, partnerships, trust, pain, etc. As if those who chose not to train with a prong collar or whatever don't care about those things. 

The relationships and partnerships I share with my dogs are my number one priority. I will not employ training methods that I believe will cause otherwise. Yes, I have left trainers and groups, even sports when methods are not ones I support. I do not put earning titles above the best interest of my dog. I believe everything I do in training is a PART of the relationship I'm building. 

Last month someone asked on a training group for a video of a dog being corrected on a prong collar, and I posted this old training video I'm going to put below. I posted it because I am not ashamed of how I train and I don't keep secret how I train. I just don't see a relationship suffering or a lack of partnership here. I see a tool being used to communicate very subtly what I want my dog to do.

I noticed at one point I kick my dog in this video. And I realized, if I state that, some people would jump all over that and say how horrible it is to kick a dog, abusive, there's never any excuse, blah, blah, blah, but if you actually look at when I do it, you can see it is totally in play and that is the way my dog takes it. I bring this up to relate back to the point that sometimes something can sound horrible when in reality it is not.


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

And I would choose to accomplish the same thing without the use of a prong or a shock collar. Because by their very nature those are tools that cause pain, the level is left up to the handler. I prefer not to use them. And I would never recommend them to a new puppy owner.

And I have never kicked my dog, in play or otherwise. By accident, sure I've stepped on a foot or a tail. But to kick? To shock? To pinch? No. Our methods differ.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

If you are so confident in what you are doing, why are you trying so hard to convince anyone? Just do it and be done with it. 

I found the video disturbing to watch.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm all for training how you feel comfortable and tailoring your training to fit the dog you have. Since ideas are being shared on a public forum, I'm sharing that prong collars don't have to be evil tools in my opinion. It's all in HOW you use it. Isn't the whole point of a public forum to share different ideas?

I'm curious why you find the video disturbing? I'm asking sincerely, I honestly can't see anything in here to be disturbed about so I'm interested in what you are seeing that is disturbing?


----------



## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

To all;

I am just stepping in here to say and remind everyone that though not everyone may agree on every training type there is out there they all can be discussed on this forum. If anyone does not agree with a method that is fine but try to keep your disagreements to the training respectful.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

First... prongs _are_ used on young dogs - with 4-5 months, you aren't talking about a little bitty puppy. Some of these dogs are about 40-50 pounds and learning to pull. If it's not nipped right there, then you have a 60-80 pound dog just months later who has the same pulling issues. I've generally avoided the need to use a prong that early, but I don't generally have pullers either. 

Elizabeth - Adele used prongs on her young flatcoat fairly early because for the basic training process - it's just a lot easier on her shoulders and back. And in general, you will find a lot of trainers introduce prongs at that age for that reason. 

*But I don't know why people are talking about prongs.* From the original post, this sounds like something very easy to fix with appropriate leash training - regardless of what the dog has on his neck. 

Get a tighter collar or put a harness on the dog and keep going - go "Whoopie!!!!" when the dog comes along and keep trucking. The dog will learn that he has to go with you vs you going with him.

If a dog pulls for something and you stop or go with him - what has the dog learned? 

If a dog grabbed stuff off the floor and eats it before getting a "luring away" treat from you, what has the dog learned? 

This is very basic dog training. And there is also owner smarts needed as well. I'd compare this to what my drivers ed teacher drilled into my head as far as defensive driving. He told me not to glaze over and daydream while driving. He told me to always be looking around and be aware of my surrounding. Be watching for what other drivers are doing on my sides or in front of me. Be watching out for road hazards, etc.

As a dog owner walking your dog around the block - maintain control over what your dog is exposed to at all times. If there's something your dog's going to stop and fixate on - avoid it. Make a wide berth in passing.

ETA - something else that I think is very important. I don't think this is the case with the original post, because the dog apparently fixates on stuff he wants in his mouth. But if you have dogs who are sitting down or refusing to walk with you - read it as possible symptoms that should be taken very seriously. Could be aches and pains that aren't bad enough to limp over, but the dogs still feel them anyway. Our golden we lost to renal failure at age 6, he stopped walking when he was about 3 years old. At the time a neighbor who saw him pull out of a collar and run back home saw enough to be concerned about and she flagged us down the next time she saw us to let us know that was one of the very first symptoms of something being wrong. We didn't take her seriously at the time, but now we understand. The only thing we did then was decided he wasn't a walker and never pressured him to walk further than he liked.


----------



## parisGreenDay (Jan 5, 2014)

No! Don't use prong collars or choke collars! Go to YouTube and type In "Zakgeorge loose leash walking". He's the best! He has a couple of videos on walking so hopefully they will work for you. And he hates prong or choke collars!  my baby does that exact thing, stops and won't move until the people pass, so we are working on it thanks to Zak George


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I LOVE Zak!!!!! He's really fun and easy to listen to. A trainer at Pat Miller's facility mentioned him and I've followed him ever since.


----------



## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> Not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm all for training how you feel comfortable and tailoring your training to fit the dog you have. Since ideas are being shared on a public forum, I'm sharing that prong collars don't have to be evil tools in my opinion. It's all in HOW you use it. Isn't the whole point of a public forum to share different ideas?
> 
> I'm curious why you find the video disturbing? I'm asking sincerely, I honestly can't see anything in here to be disturbed about so I'm interested in what you are seeing that is disturbing?


I loved watching your dog work. Nice teamwork and nice video. You two clearly have a great partnership. He looks like a happy, motivated boy.


----------



## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> There's actually a lot of controversy with Jon Katz from trainers, especially from those who prefer to train all positive. I know many who absolutely despise him, his training, and his relationship with his dogs.


That would be because he killed the dog when his training methods failed.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> If a dog pulls for something and you stop or go with him - what has the dog learned?


If you stop, you've at least prevented the reward for pulling, but by itself it doesn't teach the dog how to walk on the leash. It's a punishment (a negative punishment, so perhaps a bit gentler than a positive punishment like a collar pop), so it hopefully reduces the behavior, but it won't do so as fast or as reliably as practicing and rewarding what you _do_ want.

If you go with him, you've rewarded him for pulling and taught him to pull harder in the future.



Megora said:


> If a dog grabbed stuff off the floor and eats it before getting a "luring away" treat from you, what has the dog learned?


The dog has learned that if he snatches food, he'll get the reward of the food and also a reward afterwards. You'd basically be teaching the dog that snatching food off the floor is an awesome jackpot.

If the dog is prevented from actually getting the floor food and then is rewarded with a treat when he chooses, on any level, to leave the floor food alone, then you've made a powerful step in the right direction.

I know Megora knows this stuff, but even though the questions were rhetorical, I felt like answering them for the less experienced folks in the thread.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Rather than discussing tools, since it looks like the thread has been around that conversation twice already and it doesn't take much reading of my post history or blog to learn my thoughts on prong collars, I want to focus on the pup's mindset.

Dogs stop and plant like this for a couple of reasons, but most commonly, they stop because they don't know what their options are. A dog, especially a young one, can get overwhelmed and become sort of helpless. 

A second common reason is that the pup stops because he learns that it can work to get him what he wants. From the initial description, it sounds like you have the second scenario here. If he plants, won't budge, and then gets to greet the person, you've just strongly rewarded the planting behavior. He's much more likely to do it in the future.

Greeting-related behaviors are incredibly difficult to train because strangers—either accidentally or on purpose—constantly reward your dog for the wrong things. They pet your puppy when he's jumping up, squeal delightedly when he mouths them, and come towards him making eye contact and happy noises when he's pulling on the leash. And in this case, they keep walking toward their destinations, even though it's accidentally rewarding your dog.

The most important piece is to make sure the behavior stops getting rewarded. No matter what else you try, your dog will keep doing something if he finds it rewarding at least some of the time. In fact, sporadic rewards are even more powerful in some ways than consistent rewards, so if he's full of anticipation that he _might_ get to greet because he does _sometimes_, that can be even more reinforcing than letting him greet every time (like a gambler pulling a slot machine handle). If that means you have to say to the stranger, "please ignore my dog; we're training something; I'm so sorry," then so be it. If he learns that planting no longer leads to the reward but instead leads to a boring situation, he's less likely to do it in the future, and you might have a chance to start rewarding what you _do_ want.

The other piece of the puzzle is that you cannot get into bidding wars between your dog and a distraction. If he's planted and no amount of zany motion or voice can get his attention, don't bother. And definitely don't lure him with a treat. That can work if the treat is great and the dog isn't totally fixated on something else, but if you find yourself sticking it in front of his nose and trying to bring him around like it's a magnet, I'd only try that once or twice before moving on.

So bring that mindset with you to your next walk, regardless of equipment. Make sure that planting is boring for him, not rewarding. Make sure he doesn't get a greeting after he plants, and try to make sure that he doesn't even get to move closer to the person at all. Reward him _after_ you get anything, even the smallest thing, you want, like a look in your eyes, a step forwards, etc., but don't beg or bribe anymore. And if you bring liverwurst and it works as a lure on the first or second try, that's great, but don't rely on treats to _create_ attention. They're not so great at that, but they can be used to _reward_ it and reinforce it so you get more of it in the future.

Practice attention-related behaviors in less distracting contexts. Teach your dog that "let's go" means you're about to march off and reward him 3-10 times in a row with tiny pieces of food (varying it can create the same sporadic gambler feelings in your favor that are working against you right now). Do that in the house and the backyard, and there's a good chance it'll work better on the sidewalk when he plants and you march off saying "let's go," and then you'll be able to reward him for coming with you. If you see a situation that might create a plant, change directions and speed up. Reward him if and when he pays attention and comes with you. I really think you'll get more out of your treats if you focus on using them as rewards for what you like rather than as motivators.

As far as equipment goes, a front-attaching harness can give you leverage over a young dog in order to prevent him from self-rewarding if he's too big to handle. That's probably the gentlest piece of equipment that will could fulfill the need. If a dog is truly planting, hauling on a flat collar isn't the safest thing to do to get him away from things anyway.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you, Tippykayak. so much wisdom. I appreciate the link to the dog's mindset. I love being able to get inside their heads and understand how they are thinking.


----------



## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Loisiana said:


> I don't know, I think for the average pet owner, the prong collar is the safest tool they can use for a pulling dog until it learns not to pull. I see so many pets straining into buckle collars, gagging and choking themselves. Buckle collars, slip collars, harnesses, and head halters can all cause physical damage to a strong pulling dog. If they have the ability through training to prevent the dog from ever pulling in the first place, that is great, but most average pet owners don't.
> 
> True, a person could start yanking and jerking hard on a prong collar, but if the person thought they should do that with a prong collar, they probably think it should be done on other collars too. And those other collars are much more likely to damage a dog if being jerked on. Which is why I think the prong is the safest tool overall for a pulling dog.



Thor was pulling a little. Not often and not real hard but nevertheless I was scared to death he would hurt his neck from his flat collar. I finally idea the gentle walk harness and he does amazing ! So much so that after several walks with it I am able to not use it and just use his flat collar. He learned to not pull using the harass. All this to say that I agree flat collars can really be dangerous sometimes. It scared me. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

This thread REALLY reminds me of the spanking debates on my parenting boards. One side likes to elude that a parent that spanks doesn't love their children as much. The spankers elude to non spankers children being out of control. I think there is a middle ground to all of this. It's not so black and white. I am not dominant over Thor. I don't raise my voice at him. He does however need to obey, as do my children. It's for the safety of my dog that I need him to be obedient. I love him so much I can't let mishaps injure or kill him. I think all of the above methods mentioned are useful tools when used in the proper manner with love. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Shellbug - There certainly are very strong comparisons to be made. That's for sure. Right down to the first time parents telling everyone around them that will listen how to raise children based on something they read in a book. ROFL<:


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Or worse yet: people who have NEVER raised a child telling people how to raise their children.



Megora said:


> @Shellbug - There certainly are very strong comparisons to be made. That's for sure. Right down to the first time parents telling everyone around them that will listen how to raise children based on something they read in a book. ROFL<:


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Penny's Mom said:


> Or worse yet: people who have NEVER raised a child telling people how to raise their children.


I never had kids, but I helped raise quite a few.
I love the parents who think that popping out a kid makes them an expert in parenting.


----------

