# Instant recall methods



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Well... the hunters I know have a zap training collar on their dogs. They also have gps thingies so they can track their dogs down when they get lost. I learned that lesson a couple years ago when I 'rescued' a lost beagle. The hunter came around a few hours later and accused me of stealing his dog. 

Personally speaking though - ALWAYS have treats in your pocket and make sure the dog knows that he will be quickly and vastly rewarded with food and a party when he comes running when called. 

This has worked to get him to immediately stop playing with the cute neighborhood dogs and come back to me. 

The other important thing is there is NEVER any scolding when the dog comes. Even if you are mad at them for running off on you, you still must reward the come and make sure the dog knows that coming back is 'positive'. Otherwise you might get smarties ignoring your commands because there is nothing in it for them but correction and negative consequences. 

If you have to go out and retrieve your dog, then you might do a few quick corrective comes on a long leash. I border train, which is walking along the border the dog broke through and correcting (quick pop + 'no') the instant the dog steps outside the invisible white line. And I do this every few hours that day and every day that week until the dog gets a clue. <- And this works, as my 2 y/o golden and 5 y/o collie can wander the home turf freely without any fencing. 

The other thing - and this is hugely important... NEVER TAKE YOUR DOG OFF LEASH WHEN OFF PROPERTY. Unless he is old and crippled and you can guarantee you can move faster than he ever can.


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## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

Ok heres the thing---Bella needs to run and run--she is very large and full of energy---we walk her in the woods a lot--she runs all over but always comes back. Our town has an island where its good to take dogs--its about a mile around. I let her run there but thats when it gets tricky---if she stops an animal--off she goes. I want her to come to me on demand---always.. how do I make her do that?? 
I like the idea of treats---I will start to do that immediately.

PS---where in MI do you live


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I was going to post something similar today. This weekend, I was taking a bag of dog poo out to the trash, and when I opened the gate Gilmour shot through on me. Off he went! He paid no attention to my calls at all, even "Cookie!"

I grab the collar and hopped in the Van after him.

I got lucky. The next door neighbors had their Lab/Scotty mix outside, and he was at the chain link fence saying hi.

He was easy to catch this time, but the next time maybe not so much.

Note - unless I do something incredibly stupid, like I did this time, there is no way they can get out. They were outside of their locked kennel area having a run while I cleaned up the kennel and whacked some weeds. Normally opening that gate is no problem. I just forgot they were out.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

BELLA said:


> Ok heres the thing---Bella needs to run and run--she is very large and full of energy---we walk her in the woods a lot--she runs all over but always comes back. Our town has an island where its good to take dogs--its about a mile around. I let her run there but thats when it gets tricky---if she stops an animal--off she goes. I want her to come to me on demand---always.. how do I make her do that??
> I like the idea of treats---I will start to do that immediately.
> 
> PS---where in MI do you live


OK... keep in mind I'm somewhat overprotective of my boys and wouldn't let them absolutely loose even if we were on a desert island. And I don't even have a high energy golden who'd run away from me. :

Play come games on long line. Then off leash. This would be food in the pocket sometimes. Or stuffing a toy under your arm and running away like mad on other days (speeds up the comes). <- Do these when you have the dog's attention and know he's certain to come. Once he's solid on that, start surprising him when he's not watching. 

You won't always be able to prevent your golden from visiting the neighborhood dogs, friendly strangers, chasing wild animals - chalk that up to their strong instincts and don't blame them too much. You can definitely train your dog to return to you when you call though. It does take a lot of training and consistency from you. 

Remember to always throw the biggest party possible when the dog comes. 

I'm way down south from you in Livingston County. :wavey:


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BELLA said:


> Ok heres the thing---Bella needs to run and run--she is very large and full of energy---we walk her in the woods a lot--she runs all over but always comes back. Our town has an island where its good to take dogs--its about a mile around. I let her run there but thats when it gets tricky---if she stops an animal--off she goes. I want her to come to me on demand---always.. how do I make her do that??
> I like the idea of treats---I will start to do that immediately.
> 
> PS---where in MI do you live


I seem to recall you posting about this before... 

Here's the thing -- A good recall, even away from distractions, takes lots and lots and lots and lots of planned, systematic practice. You're looking at a couple THOUSAND solid training reps (done on leash) before I'd expect a dog to choose to return over chasing the distraction.

IMO, most people practice a little... like maybe a couple hundred times (if that) and then expect the word to work under any circumstance, and then when it doesn't, they think the training technique has failed them.

In reality, it's a simple exercise to train, it's just not easy b/c it requires SO MUCH PRACTICE. And yelling the word when the dog is off leash isn't proper training practice.... that's TESTING... b/c the dog is off leash and you can't really control the outcome. And if your dog fails the test by not coming, he's learned he doesn't have to come.... And for every FAILED RESPONSE, it takes FIFTY MORE TRAINING REPS to make up for it.

Lots of ways to train it, but as a reminder, here's how I do it:

Part One:
http://www.examiner.com/x-18986-San...09m8d26-Training-your-dog-to-come-when-called

Part Two:
http://www.examiner.com/x-18986-San...our-dog-to-come-when-called-final-installment


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I think it would just be easier to embedd a GPS chip


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Mine is unique, its a loon call using my hands


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## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

I am 64 years old and not able to practice thousands of times to teach anything. Wouldn't a shock collar work when she darts off???


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

BELLA said:


> I am 64 years old and not able to practice thousands of times to teach anything. Wouldn't a shock collar work when she darts off???


One thing - I've gone to dog shows and dog classes with a LOT of people older than you. 

My barn lady is nearly 70 and she still trains young wild horses for saddle competition and for harness racing. She's broken many bones and nearly gotten killed a couple times, but she's gotten back up and gone back to her horses (and dogs). 

She has three german shepherds and a couple other dogs (shi tsu and a mixed thing) - and they are all permitted to go loose on her farm without any danger of them running away or getting killed by a horse. That's because she herself trained them. 

Age is no excuse. :

Shock collars - you have to be specifically trained (dog class, etc) to know how to use these. Otherwise you risk abusing your dog and turning him into a fearful critter who won't want to go outside. Considering how sensitive goldens are, I seriously hope people don't use these collars on them. A broken golden is a tragic thing.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I am 64 years old and not able to practice thousands of times to teach anything."

Wow!

Training isn't magic it takes time and repetition.

Am I misunderstanding what you are saying? Or do you not understand what advice you have been given?

Practicing 3 times a day for 364 days will put you at 1,092 times. Practicing the recall 5 times a day will give you 1,000 times in 200 days. Practicing a recall 3 or 5 times a day will take about 10 minutes of your day.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BELLA said:


> I am 64 years old and not able to practice thousands of times to teach anything. Wouldn't a shock collar work when she darts off???


And therein lies my biggest pet peeve about e-collars.... people turning to them as a short cut.

Your dog. Your choice. But I'm not buying that you aren't *able* to practice enough get a reliable recall. You *won't* practice enough. If you're going to opt for a short cut, at least own up to the fact that that's what you're doing.

If you decide to go the e-collar route, please find a QUALIFIED TRAINER to help TEACH YOU how to TEACH your dog what's expected of her with the collar. You don't just put in on and zap her when she runs off.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> And therein lies my biggest pet peeve about e-collars.... people turning to them as a short cut.
> 
> Your dog. Your choice. But I'm not buying that you aren't *able* to practice enough get a reliable recall. You *won't* practice enough. If you're going to opt for a short cut, at least own up to the fact that that's what you're doing.
> 
> If you decide to go the e-collar route, at least find a QUALIFIED TRAINER to help TEACH YOU how to TEACH your dog what's expected of her with the collar. You don't just put in on and zap her when she runs off.


Quoted for truth. 

OP: What are you expecting the shock collar to do when she runs off? "Discipline" her? Not unless you've learned how to use the collar properly and she knows she got zapped because she didn't LISTEN to you, not because she ran off. 

This is why some training tools get a bad rap. Because people think tools can "fix" the problem without having to do any work or effort on their part. Eventually the use of the tool becomes bastardized and then the actually _purpose_ of the tool is lost.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If you just shock a dog as a substitute for training, it won't work. You'll just confuse the hell out of the dog and create a whole new set of problems for yourself. When e-collars are used successfully in field training, they're used as part of a program to achieve precision movement at a distance, not as a shortcut or a replacement for a solid training regimen.

E-collars are not necessary for training rock solid recall. The key, as Quiz said, is successful repetition of the desired pairing of command and behavior. If you spent 10 minutes a day working through a good program, you'd have strong recall in two weeks and very strong recall in a couple of months.

When you use treats, DO NOT use them to lure the dog. Use them to _reinforce_ obedience. When she comes back, she shouldn't know whether there's a treat or not at the end. Practice in situations with no distractions (like in the house), and when she's coming back 100% of the time, move to a place that has small distractions (backyard) until you're at 100%. Then work up from there. In an uncontrolled situation, if think there's a 5% or greater chance she's going to blow you off, DON'T say "come." Every time you say the command and she fails to obey, you'll need between 10 and 100 correct repetitions to erase the failed execution.

I've trained three Goldens (and I'm working on a fourth) with high prey-drive and speed to 99+% recall and 99+% success holding stays to any distraction, simply by repeating the successful behavior and reinforcing it, and by preventing unsuccessful executions. No zaps, no hitting, no yelling, no reeling in a long line, no "popping" a collar. Just repetition and well-timed reinforcement. There's nothing like watching a positively-trained dog wheel around and sprint for you like you're the best party in the world. 

It looks a little like this:











Another great game to teach your dog to take an interruption is to hold a treat in each hand, hiding them from the dog. Say her name. When she looks at your face, say "yes!" and give the treat. Spend five minutes, twice a day, and you'll train the habit very firmly. It's the best way I know to teach a dog that hearing her name means to look at your face and expect something great.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> And therein lies my biggest pet peeve about e-collars.... people turning to them as a short cut.
> 
> Your dog. Your choice. But I'm not buying that you aren't *able* to practice enough get a reliable recall. You *won't* practice enough. If you're going to opt for a short cut, at least own up to the fact that that's what you're doing.
> 
> If you decide to go the e-collar route, at least find a QUALIFIED TRAINER to help TEACH YOU how to TEACH your dog what's expected of her with the collar. You don't just put in on and zap her when she runs off.


 
What she said. Times ten. Unreal...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I've trained three Goldens (and I'm working on a fourth) with high prey-drive and speed to 99+% recall and 99+% success holding stays to any distraction, simply by repeating the successful behavior and reinforcing it, and by preventing unsuccessful executions. No zaps, no hitting, no yelling, no reeling in a long line, no "popping" a collar. Just repetition and well-timed reinforcement. There's nothing like watching a positively-trained dog wheel around and sprint for you like you're the best party in the world.
> 
> It looks a little like this:


Heehee<: I have one of those pictures too.... 

The following is what I see every single time I call my dog to front or come. Initially taught on a long line... with a quick pop on the collar and positive reinforcement and reward. 










I do agree with all of the people above. However you train (as long as it isn't cruel or abusive), you still need to put the time in so you have a reliable pet who is tightly bonded to you. And do not 'test' your dog unless that dog has a good chance of success. Otherwise, you are letting the dog develop bad habits that need to be undone. 

The best comparision I have is sometimes those people you see in obedience class who haven't done their groundwork with the comes. A dog must come at the first command. If not, you shake a leg and go out there and get your dog. The worst thing you can do is to stand there repeating come multiple times if your dog is going the other way, shopping, and ignoring you.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> And therein lies my biggest pet peeve about e-collars.... people turning to them as a short cut.
> 
> Your dog. Your choice. But I'm not buying that you aren't *able* to practice enough get a reliable recall. You *won't* practice enough. If you're going to opt for a short cut, at least own up to the fact that that's what you're doing.
> 
> If you decide to go the e-collar route, please find a QUALIFIED TRAINER to help TEACH YOU how to TEACH your dog what's expected of her with the collar. You don't just put in on and zap her when she runs off.


Agreed! An e-collar isn't a substitution for training.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

a dog who is not properly "collar conditioned" (with the help of a pro if you haven't done it many, many times successfully yourself) to the e-collar is more likely to BOLT when they get jolted than to return to you.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> a dog who is not properly "collar conditioned" (with the help of a pro if you haven't done it many, many times successfully yourself) to the e-collar is more likely to BOLT when they get jolted than to return to you.


 
I was going to say the exact same thing. I have trained my dogs on an ecollar, but if you were to just slap one on the dog and zap the dog when you want them to come the dog is more likely to take off running and hide somewhere out of fear of what is happening. I do like having the option of using the collar, but there is still a lot of training and steps involved in teaching the dog what that feeling means and how to turn it off.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

There was only one time that I have ever used an e collar on my dogs. It was in the California high desert and we were teaching snake avoidance with a professional snake avoidance teacher. Even doing that, when it was meant to provoke a very negative association to the sight, smell and sound of a rattlesnake, broke my heart. It wasn't a strong zap that would make them yelp or anything like that, but I hated to see them shake their heads and go at their necks. It was awful.
I would NEVER use one to train a dog. I have seen working dogs who cringe when the handler blows a down or a slow whistle. It makes me see red, I get soooo angry.  Some professionals do it and do it correctly but I prefer taking longer and not using one.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lilliam said:


> There was only one time that I have ever used an e collar on my dogs. It was in the California high desert and we were teaching snake avoidance with a professional snake avoidance teacher.


Was that Patrick Callaghan? He's the only person I ever referred people to for snake training. Sadly, he passed away unexpectedly earlier this year. :-(

BTW --- I just wanted to point out that I wasn't trying to say I assumed Sandy would just pop the collar on and zap away when Bella ran off -- but that if she was going to use a collar, to please seek qualified professional help. Just clarifying...


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

No, that wasn't the name....it was a woman....there were a bunch of us who were part of the herding crowd who all got together and would have repeated trainings. I can't remember the name of the woman, though....this was around 2001 because we still lived in the valley and would train in the desert.

And to clarify as well....there was a woman who had very, very hard Belgian sheepdogs. She trained with an e collar. When we had trials and she was in the field, we could actually see her dogs cringe when she gave a correction. It was so sad to watch. I know that there are folks who use e collars and who are fully knowledgeable in what they do. I personally would rather take six weeks in training something than to use an e collar. 

And it's not all about how the dogs react, although it is a big thing. My thinking is that if sheepdogs had been trained for decades (if not centuries) without the use of an e collar, I can do it too. True, there are hard trainers and there have been hard trainers and there will be hard trainers who never go near an e collar, but that's just my own thing.


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## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

No I would not put the shock collar on just to zap her----I have used the collar and believe me she shapes up immediately just knowing its on. I have corrected her maybe twice on a low setting and she responded very well. 
So just an hour ago I was riding my bike with her at my side (no leash)--we were at the cabin, no cars, she is doing great trotting along--she loves doing this. I spotted a deer then she did too and poof off she went. The deer dashed off, Bella came back--I could see her the whole time. I had her at the harbor last night, someone said "oh what a sweet well behaved dog" as she sat there at my side unleased. Well she is is----sometimes.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lilliam said:


> My thinking is that if sheepdogs had been trained for decades (if not centuries) without the use of an e collar, I can do it too.


Love it! That's always been my argument against e-collars for field work - that, if retrievers have been hunting birds to hand for centuries --- since a time BEFORE electricity and when, if they didn't get it right, you might not get to eat --- I find it hard to fully believe that you *have* to use a collar for field work or else it can't be done.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BELLA said:


> No I would not put the shock collar on just to zap her----I have used the collar and believe me she shapes up immediately just knowing its on. I have corrected her maybe twice on a low setting and she responded very well.
> So just an hour ago I was riding my bike with her at my side (no leash)--we were at the cabin, no cars, she is doing great trotting along--she loves doing this. I spotted a deer then she did too and poof off she went. The deer dashed off, Bella came back--I could see her the whole time. I had her at the harbor last night, someone said "oh what a sweet well behaved dog" as she sat there at my side unleased. Well she is is----sometimes.


Just curious... if you already have an e-collar and have been using it, why did you post?


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## BELLA (Nov 13, 2006)

I wanted to know what methods hunters use to train their dogs. I realize there are many many methods to train---each uses their own---I don;t want to use the shock collar if I can find another solution. Maybe you have read that I also have a problem with Bella being aggressive to other dogs on leash--sometimes. I still have not figured that out.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Uh... if your dog is aggressive towards dogs or people, you should have her on leash. You are asking for a heckova lot of trouble for yourself and your dog.

Personally speaking here - if your dog came up and attacked my leashed dog, I would defend my dog even if it means kicking or hitting your dog. And I have kicked one loose and aggressive dog off my current baby hard enough to cause it to run away yelping, so this isn't just talk. I would assume other dog owners would feel just as protective of their furballs - especially if they are smaller dogs. 

Aggression will get worse if you are not there to keep your dog in check. And even if she's a 'friendly' breed, it doesn't mean she won't injure someone else's pet. And somebody could press charges against you, if they do not in fact shoot your dog. 

Keep your dog on leash.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Megora said:


> Uh... if your dog is aggressive towards dogs or people, you should have her on leash. You are asking for a heckova lot of trouble for yourself and your dog.
> 
> Personally speaking here - if your dog came up and attacked my leashed dog, I would defend my dog even if it means kicking or hitting your dog. And I have kicked one loose and aggressive dog off my current baby hard enough to cause it to run away yelping, so this isn't just talk. I would assume other dog owners would feel just as protective of their furballs - especially if they are smaller dogs.
> 
> ...


Just point out that often, dogs are absolutely fine with other dogs when off-leash, but have a problem being approached by other dogs when they're leashed b/c they know they can't move away (or can only move a certain distance) when the leash is on. That might be what's happening with Bella -- not that she's going around going after other dogs. I'd still rather work on it than just not use a leash, but that's just my preference.

On the other hand, if her recall isn't solid, I'd be careful about letting her off leash if you think she'll go bounding up to other LEASHED dogs. That's my #1 pet peeve! GAH. SO UNFAIR to the dog who is on a leash and is, IMO, VERY INCONSIDERATE of the person who owns the off-leash dog. The way I see it, your (meaning anyone, not just Sandy/Bella) decision to take your own dog off leash SHOULD NOT impact me. If it does, put your leash back on!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> Uh... if your dog is aggressive towards dogs or people, you should have her on leash. You are asking for a heckova lot of trouble for yourself and your dog.
> 
> Personally speaking here - if your dog came up and attacked my leashed dog, I would defend my dog even if it means kicking or hitting your dog. And I have kicked one loose and aggressive dog off my current baby hard enough to cause it to run away yelping, so this isn't just talk. I would assume other dog owners would feel just as protective of their furballs - especially if they are smaller dogs.
> 
> ...


I am in 100 % agreement here. Aside from the fact that leash laws are for _everyone _in MI, if any aggressive or out of control dog were to threaten me or my dogs. I am well within my rights to protect them in any way possible. Were I to learn that the owner was AWARE of his dog being aggressive, I'd be very inclined to push for the maximum allowable punishment. Sorry, but these are the situations that do in fact make it impossible for dog owners who are careful and responsible with their dogs to be able to have access to and enjoy many public spaces with them.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

My second golden was attacked by an off leash dog when we were walking across the street to the Jupiter dog beach (here in Florida) several years ago. Each and every owner has an obligation to be considerate of each other. As the Shiba Inu approached, I yelled out to the owner "mine are friendly, is yours?" and she said "no." What a total idiot. Fortunately, Alli's thick fur protected her, but a breed without such fur would not have been so lucky.

Can you attend regular obedience classes with Bella? I know you say that she needs to run and get out that excess energy, but so many times, at least to me, I see people with dogs running willy nilly and are they really getting true exercise? Are their minds being exercised? I have found that in so many cases, if you exercise and challenge a dog's mind, through training, that you can wear them out in that manner too.

Bella is just following her nose and eyes when she sees something that is more interesting than you--and she doesn't listen to you when you call her to come back. She comes back on her own terms--when the deer has outrun her, when the squirrel has climbed a tree--when the critter is back in its den or hole. Pet stores sell 30, 40 foot long leads--attach one to her and start using it. I suspect that she is so strong that you may have a tussle popping her to stay close to you. That is why I suggest you attend regular obedience classes together. She ignores your recall with distractions.

The situation with greeting other dogs while she's on a leash also needs to be addressed. Her aggression goes away as long as she's off leash. But what happens if she greets a dog that is on leash--who is aggressive? And she's attacked? Whose fault is that? It will be yours. What happens if she does attack a dog? What happens is she greets a dog that is off leash, and that dog is aggressive? You can't put Bella in a bubble, but OTOH, you can't be allowing her to continue to run off leash, because that situation is a ticking time bomb--it will only take one incident for a fight--and even if Bella is in the right, she will be in the wrong because she was off lead.


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