# Field training question of the week:



## Alaska7133

Do you think that training for similar activities at the same time is a good thing or not?

Here's the reference. DH thinks that training for both field trials and hunt tests at the same time is very confusing for the dog. Looking out for a white coat at a very long distance and marking off the gunner, versus a hunt test situation where the marks are closer and the gunners are hidden and the dog is marking off the location of the bird. I hope that makes sense. That those 2 activities are too similar and thereby too confusing for the dog. That the dog needs to be completely solid one on before moving to another. 

So what's your opinion is there a limit to the activities you participate in due to the similarity to other activities? Do you find things that are not alike at all so that there is no confusion? Or do your dogs easily learn something that is similar? I know that every dog is different and every trainer is different.

DH thinks Lucy should do hunt test training and show dog stuff and leave the rest alone until Lucy is solid on retriever blinds. The other stuff should go by the wayside for now. I'm leaning in his camp.


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## K9-Design

Your dog will not know the difference. Most trainers utilize stand alone, white coat gunners all the time, to teach concepts or just work on marking. Besides, there is no better way to teach focus than using multiple gunners in a field. It will translate to being able to focus in hunt tests too. 
I think the better answer is, train what you can concentrate and do well on. If you can train well on the two different concepts, go for it. If it's too much for you and you find yourself half-azzing either of them, then just stick to one. A dog has NO IDEA what a hunt test versus a field trial is. It's all picking up birds to them.


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## Alaska7133

But there is a difference to the dog. White coats are at a lot longer distance for a field trial. The dogs need to mark off the gunners. In a hunt test, the gunners are hidden and the dogs have to mark of where the bird actually lands. I see marking as very different. 

In any case it doesn't matter whether it's obedience or agility or hunt tests, they are all different events. DH was theorizing that training for events that were too similar, it would be harder for the dog than events that are very different. It was a conversation of training theories.


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## K9-Design

Marks are marks. There is no rule that says white coats must be at great distances IN TRAINING. Field trials are not just about white coats and distances. Hunt tests are not just hidden gunner stations. It's all the same concepts. 
What would confusion for the dog manifest itself as?


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## Alaska7133

In a hunt test I see a dog marking the location the bird falls. Whereas in a field trial the dog marks off the gunner. Different concepts. In hunt tests there are often no gunners to mark the fall with.

Last weekend we ran test dog for a derby field trial. We haven't trained white coats and marking off the gunner in awhile. The white coats were not an issue. Marking off the gunner was. Memory over longer distances is harder if you are marking the location of the fall versus the location of the gunner and the general location of the fall. Lucy actually overran a mark. The gunner was out about 200 yards, it was the memory bird. She overran it by easily another 100 yards, maybe farther. I actually lost sight of her for awhile. Had she been marking off the gunner, I don't think she would have done that. That's where I came up with the thought that maybe field trial and hunt tests concepts are different enough.


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## Claudia M

I had a reply but the thunderstorm started and entire computer shut down. 

Mike Lardy in his video Total Retriever Marking he advises all dogs to train with the white coats, either for hunt test or field trials. I have done both with my girls and did not see a confusion in them.

ETA - even if you train for nothing but hunt tests I have started with visible throwers until the dog learns to mark and only later used the blind. Depending on the dog's mark-ability even in long distances you start with visible white coats and then you retire them.


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## K9-Design

Marking where the bird fell vs. marking where the gunner is is splitting hairs. It will depend on the dog, the dog's training, and the specific mark and area of the fall. The difference is a matter of yards so I wouldn't waste too much time analyzing it. If she went 100 yards deep, she just didn't mark it that well.


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## Alaska7133

Let's go back to just training for 2 different areas that are similar but different. How similar can 2 different things be before they are confusing? Like say rally and obedience. Can you confidentially train both or are they enough similar that it confuses the dog? Usually it's ok to train both. But just wondering about training similar things and if they can be confusing to the dog.


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## Claudia M

"DH thinks Lucy should do hunt test training and show dog stuff and leave the rest alone until Lucy is solid on *retriever blinds*. The other stuff should go by the wayside for now. I'm leaning in his camp."

One thing that I have noticed and been told, when you start blinds the marking goes down and vice versa. In blind work you teach your dog to rely on you where in marks you allow the dog to rely on itself.


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## Alaska7133

Last summer I watched a dog that had started blind work, fail miserably on junior hunter tests. He popped every time and then didn't handle well to the bird (he had trouble with right overs). So he failed over and over. The owner was frustrated. I think the dog was at that in between stage and wasn't good at either.


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## hotel4dogs

Dan says the only people who can't train for 2 venues are the ones who are lousy trainers  .


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## Swampcollie

I think it's more confusing for the handler than it is for the dog. 

We train with white coats all the time, whether the mark is 30 yards or 300.


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## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> Dan says the only people who can't train for 2 venues are the ones who are lousy trainers  .


I guess according to Dan I may be lousy and lazy. : I refuse to train a dog in several venues. I personally do not think it is either wise or healthy for the dog. 

It is one thing to train for hunt test, field trials and upland flushing; completely another to add on agility, obedience and other stuff.


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## hotel4dogs

Tito would disagree with you 



Claudia M said:


> I guess according to Dan I may be lousy and lazy. : I refuse to train a dog in several venues. I personally do not think it is either wise or healthy for the dog.
> 
> It is one thing to train for hunt test, field trials and upland flushing; completely another to add on agility, obedience and other stuff.


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## hotel4dogs

Seriously, Tito and I have actually always found that the more dog sports you train for, the easier each one is. There is a lot of crossover between them, kind of a synergistic effect.
We started in obedience, which is really the foundation for everything. Added to that the breed ring, where his obedience background rather than being a hindrance was an asset, as he was always calm and in control (okay, that's a stretch, he was born that way, but still). But the breed ring taught him patience, and to stand still for long periods of time while the other dogs are being examined, without moving. Also did rally, which is basically just dumbed down obedience, so no conflicts there. Since he already knew heel, sit, stay, down, etc., the rally signs were no big deal. We never *trained* for rally, just relied on his obedience background and it worked fine.
Obedience is even the foundation for dock diving. He was quite able to do a perfect "sit stay" on the end of the dock, a huge advantage. 
Then we added field. The fact that he had been in many dog shows by then, in both the breed ring and obedience, made him quite relaxed in chaotic environments, and around lots of dogs and people. He already was very good at waiting around all day to get to perform for just a couple of minutes. He already had a retrieve command, a hold command, a heel command, a stay command (think honor here), and so on. He had already done dock diving, so the water never ever concerned him in any way. Quite the opposite, dock diving built on his innate love of the water and made him a water FIEND.
He has trained both upland and retriever, hunted, run marks, run blinds, trailed birds, swam after live ducks, etc. None of them ever seemed to conflict with anything else, rather, each one gave him more skills. The upland hunting gave him huge amounts of confidence when he needs to hunt up a mark, and also really solidified the ability to concentrate on where a mark goes down. It also helped him understand "no bird" totally, and not see it as a problem or a punishment, just a normal happening and you just move on. The retriever training taught him to handle on an upland bird that he didn't see go down. And again, his obedience background was huge. He came into the games knowing that sit means sit, stay means stay, heel means heel, and "take it" means go get whatever it is, regardless.
Add on agility. His "stay" command gives me the chance to get out several obstacles ahead of him. His obedience (utility--directed jumping) has already taught him that when I point at a jump and say "jump it" he's expected to head in that direction and take the jump. Never had any problem with the table, as again, his stay command was very solid from obedience. 
And remarkably, agility helps in the field. He's used to jumping over anything that appears in his path, not going around it. Think fallen log etc. here. He's used to being pointed in a direction that he needs to head. Think casting. He's used to being told to get on an agility table. Think launching off a platform in the water. Going in a dog blind? No big deal, we do tunnels and chutes. Getting in a boat? Again, no big deal, he's used to being on/in/under/over all sorts of things. 
UKC obedience is really close to field. Their directed retrieve is nothing more than a very simple wagon wheel exercise. Their gloves are just a basic (very) mini-T type of set up. So the UKC UD was a breeze for Tito, 3 tries, 3 passes, new title. 
We've taken up tracking not too long ago. He already came into it knowing how to track (trailing cripples or dragged birds in training), and knowing how to discriminate scent (utility articles in obedience). It's just a matter of teaching him what he's supposed to be tracking (a person). 
So each thing we've done has, rather than confusing or stressing him, made him stronger in all the other things we do. 
Yes, there have been some confusions, but it's been ME who got confused, not him. A couple of minor things we had to train past because of differences in the sports. Stories for another day, this is already too long.


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## Claudia M

Barb, you do not think that the upland hunting will hinder the possibility of passing a master hunt test?


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## hotel4dogs

No, it won't, quite the opposite, it has helped him tremendously. Dan and I both feel it was the best thing I could have done with him. Keep in mind a lot of people who run hunt tests also actively hunt their dogs.
What did happen, though, is I totally let his water blinds go to heck because I was concentrating on the upland hunting, to the exclusion of anything else. That's not a problem with crossing over the two venues, that's a problem with Barb being lazy, and also not having time to train her dog. When you only have 2-3 hours a month to train, you have to let something go, and that's what I did. He wasn't running water blinds at a level I would consider comfortable for Master, and then we basically took a year off from running them other than very short, simple ones as required by the upland hunting tests. 
Now we have to try to catch up on the water blind skills.
It's really hard to explain how much the upland hunting helps the dog in hunt tests. For one thing, I think it helps them see the picture of what you are doing out there. He learned to trust me that if I say there's a bird out there (on a blind), it's out there, regardless of how bad or long the journey is to get to it. He has learned that he's on his own out there on a mark (he's frequently out of my sight when going after a downed upland bird) and he needs to keep looking until he finds the bird. He has learned to use the wind, and to put up an intelligent hunt. He has learned to really pay attention to where that mark goes down. And the biggest thing he has learned is a huge amount of confidence in himself, and trust in me.
edit to add...the upland hunting has also taught him HUGE HUGE steadiness. If a dog can be steady to wing and shot when flushing a big rooster pheasant, he can sit still while some dead birds go down. 



Claudia M said:


> Barb, you do not think that the upland hunting will hinder the possibility of passing a master hunt test?


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## Maxs Mom

Claudia M said:


> I guess according to Dan I may be lousy and lazy. : I refuse to train a dog in several venues. I personally do not think it is either wise or healthy for the dog.
> 
> 
> 
> It is one thing to train for hunt test, field trials and upland flushing; completely another to add on agility, obedience and other stuff.



Why do you say unhealthy?? That's crazy. 

My dog competes in agility (master level half way to her MACH), obedience (first UDX leg first OTCH points) and just ran (and passed) her first master test. The variety in her training keeps her sharp, mentally happy and raring to go. She wants to do anything and everything. My trainers in each venue think Gabby had the potential and ability to go all the way. They know she does other games they do not see any issues. Sure if I focused on one, she'd get farther faster but she wouldn't be as happy. Her only handicap is my lack of skills in obedience and field. She is healthy and happy. If Gabby had her druthers she would do all 3 every day. 

I train her about two times a week in agility and field, obedience class is once every other week. I train obedience for 10 - 15 min five times a week. I don't drill it. I find the cross training keeps her body healthy and doesn't over stress any one set of muscles, and strengthens others. 

Please explain unhealthy. 

Ann


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## Claudia M

Maxs Mom said:


> Why do you say unhealthy?? That's crazy.
> 
> My dog competes in agility (master level half way to her MACH), obedience (first UDX leg first OTCH points) and just ran (and passed) her first master test. The variety in her training keeps her sharp, mentally happy and raring to go. She wants to do anything and everything. My trainers in each venue think Gabby had the potential and ability to go all the way. They know she does other games they do not see any issues. Sure if I focused on one, she'd get farther faster but she wouldn't be as happy. Her only handicap is my lack of skills in obedience and field. She is healthy and happy. If Gabby had her druthers she would do all 3 every day.
> 
> I train her about two times a week in agility and field, obedience class is once every other week. I train obedience for 10 - 15 min five times a week. I don't drill it. I find the cross training keeps her body healthy and doesn't over stress any one set of muscles, and strengthens others.
> 
> Please explain unhealthy.
> 
> Ann


Excuse me if I will NOT explain my opinion. I stand by it and will never buy into the versatility dog. Simply put - I want my dog to excel at whatever it does instead of being a trophy collection dog and barely pass. And I shall leave it at that. 

Same way as I do not expect my daughter to excel in biology and be an excellent mechanic at the same time.


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## hotel4dogs

If my daughter could excel in biology and be an excellent mechanic at the same time, and liked both, I would expect her to.
If she couldn't, or chose not to, I wouldn't.


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## Maxs Mom

Claudia M said:


> Excuse me if I will NOT explain my opinion. I stand by it and will never buy into the versatility dog. Simply put - I want my dog to excel at whatever it does instead of being a trophy collection dog and barely pass. And I shall leave it at that.
> 
> 
> 
> Same way as I do not expect my daughter to excel in biology and be an excellent mechanic at the same time.



My dog doesn't RARELY pass. She scores consistently in the high 190's in obedience (look it up of you don't believe me) beats the border collies in agility and like I said walked to the line in her first master test and passed. 

Personally when I see a multi titled dog on a pedigree any breed, I think a dog who is trainable and biddable fun to live with and a joy to work with. A dog you want to do more with because it's fun and you learn so much about yourself along the way. 

Keep your FC AFC specialized dogs I look for the multi talents. Thank you.


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## KNorman

Maxs Mom said:


> Keep your FC AFC specialized dogs I look for the multi talents. Thank you.


Have you ever stepped to the line to run an All-Age Field Trial? Do you know what it takes to send a dog to a National?


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## hollyk

Claudia M said:


> Excuse me if I will NOT explain my opinion. I stand by it and will never buy into the versatility dog. Simply put - I want my dog to excel at whatever it does instead of being a trophy collection dog and barely pass. And I shall leave it at that.
> 
> Same way as I do not expect my daughter to excel in biology and be an excellent mechanic at the same time.



Oh my, has the forum been too quiet for you lately.
:wavey:


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## Claudia M

hollyk said:


> Oh my, has the forum been too quiet for you lately.
> :wavey:


Thank you for the evening sarcasm. Needed that after watching Texas Rising. Cried like a baby when Deaf Smith had to put his horse down. 

Meanwhile I do not think I have to justify my opinions. Nor did I call anyone crazy for expressing theirs.


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## K9-Design

Ahh yes, one of Claudia's opinions that manage to be bewildering and insulting, in one fell swoop! 
In the eternal debate of "walk" vs. "talk" --- I'll take the walk.....


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## K9-Design

Maxs Mom said:


> My dog doesn't RARELY pass. She scores consistently in the high 190's in obedience (look it up of you don't believe me) beats the border collies in agility and like I said walked to the line in her first master test and passed.
> 
> Personally when I see a multi titled dog on a pedigree any breed, I think a dog who is trainable and biddable fun to live with and a joy to work with. A dog you want to do more with because it's fun and you learn so much about yourself along the way.
> 
> Keep your FC AFC specialized dogs I look for the multi talents. Thank you.


I'm with you. Goldens are so amazing and only want to have fun with whatever activity we want to pursue. They can do it all. Nothing makes me happier than seeing owner-handled goldens excelling in multiple venues. That's the best 

Ann I saw that you passed Master in OH this weekend -- I am truly truly impressed by everything you've done with Gabby. It's a tribute to both her AND you and the dedication and gusto you tackle everything with. So inspiring!! Keep it up!


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## hollyk

Alaska7133 said:


> In a hunt test I see a dog marking the location the bird falls. Whereas in a field trial the dog marks off the gunner. Different concepts. In hunt tests there are often no gunners to mark the fall with.
> 
> Last weekend we ran test dog for a derby field trial. We haven't trained white coats and marking off the gunner in awhile. The white coats were not an issue. Marking off the gunner was. Memory over longer distances is harder if you are marking the location of the fall versus the location of the gunner and the general location of the fall. Lucy actually overran a mark. The gunner was out about 200 yards, it was the memory bird. She overran it by easily another 100 yards, maybe farther. I actually lost sight of her for awhile. Had she been marking off the gunner, I don't think she would have done that. That's where I came up with the thought that maybe field trial and hunt tests concepts are different enough.


I think retrievers have mad triangulation skills and they use everything in the environment that they can to mark. Holding blinds, a gunner, tree, bush, big clump of grass, other marks, all of it. I do think they can form a picture of the set up or maybe it's a map to the treasure in their heads. We throw lots of singles to isolate and hone that ability to do the math and then paint the picture. There are many things that influence a dogs ability to isolate and mark each bird, too much movement on the line, handler swinging them off a mark too fast, sending to fast on a mark, fliers, unexpected terrain. 

With Lucy's run did you, work to show her the gunners before you called for the birds, did you swing her off of the memory bird or did you let the noise pull her to the next mark, after she delivered did you pause and let her just look out at the memory bird before you sent her?

Probably the biggest thing I learned last year was that I needed to give my good marking dog every advantage I can on marks and that I wasn't standing next to her just to say her name. 

In one of the tests we just ran, for all three series we never moved to new ground. We just ran on the same piece from different angles, a first for us. In the 3rd series, the last bird down was the flier. You watched the triple go down then pulled them off all marks, ran the blind, then picked up your marks. There was a ton of scent in the area of the flier from drag back of a prior series. I think all dogs picked up this bird but there were some big hunts. After Winter's birds went down, I thought the judge had quietly asked me to reheal her because she had creeped out. I reheeled her and waited to be released, after a couple of seconds I didn't hear anything and I asked if I had been released, the judge didn't hear me, so I asked again. The judge told me he had original said "you are free to run the blind". We ran the blind, then came back to the flier and Winter nailed it. I think that she nailed it because the whole time I was trying to figure out if we were released she had time to do the math and recheck her results and then paint a very detailed picture in her head of where that bird was. Something to think about when we need to pick up that last mark with tough bird placement.


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## krazybronco2

use white coats for all your training, even the handler wearing white to handle. 

but to your dogs mark the gunner in a FT and not the bird is farther from the truth maybe the gun helps get a dog somewhere but what happens when that mark is retired. so throw and indented triple and retired the short middle bird. the dog that can mark will pick that bird up, the dog has to know where that bird is. remember you have a long gun still out there as a draw.


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## Rob's GRs

To all here, before this topic goes off course, or gets heated to the extent actions need to be taken from the Mod Team we are asking to keep this thread on topic and of course *civil*.


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## goldlover68

Our girl is working on her SH (3 passes in the bank) and we wanted her to get a WCX this year. Therefore in training we have used both white coats, camo set ups, and retired guns. We mix it up using retired guns, after the fall also. 

She is a hard driving girl, and has a tendency to not watch the memory marks 'hit the ground' as she head bobs to the next mark she is expecting. In these instances, earlier this year, she had trouble finding memory marks. So in training we 'set up' 2 or 3 stations, but only threw singles. If she 'head bobbed' I would release her on the mark. That seems to have helped her maintain focus as she has passed the last 2 SH tests. This week I will do the same drill, but adding in a throw from the go bird, periodically. I will again start mixing in white coats and some retired guns after the throw. It is all about teaching her to focus, and then 'go'...! 

Mixing it up is important but you have to set up drills that help the dog improve in areas they are having trouble in....

Seems there is always something more you can add to help the pups in the field!


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## gdgli

krazybronco2 said:


> use white coats for all your training, even the handler wearing white to handle.
> 
> but to your dogs mark the gunner in a FT and not the bird is farther from the truth maybe the gun helps get a dog somewhere but what happens when that mark is retired. so throw and indented triple and retired the short middle bird. the dog that can mark will pick that bird up, the dog has to know where that bird is. remember you have a long gun still out there as a draw.


I am not so sure about this. I actually am conflicted about training with white coats. My training group trains without white coats. We are basically hunt testers and hunters. I like what I see---cues are flapping wings and gunfire and the dog is conditioned to quickly focus on that. And I have heard more than one respectable trainer say that the dogs trained without white mark off the birds.

My own dog's marking has fallen off a little. We have been doing lots of blinds and I have been doing long marks with stickmen at the wingers. She has done better long marks when trained without the stickmen. But I don't deny that many train with the white coats.


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## Alaska7133

Lucy trains all winter in a white environment with dark coats and flagman bumpers. This spring I did not do any white coats. 

As the test dog, you are the first dog to run a trial and there isn't often much scent. As the test dog, everyone hopes to see what kind of mistakes a dog can make. It the mark that she ran very long, the gallery had some theories. (Aren't galleries good for that!) Theories were that she went chasing a swallow or some other small animal possibly. She also went into a hole that she could not see back at the line or the gunner and the brush was high and maybe got a bit lost. 

Whenever I do a double, I try to set the dog up at the memory bird with their spine straight at that gunner. Then I wait a long moment, turn her to the second bird, say mark, then turn her back to the memory bird. Before I send I make sure her spine is straight. I lean over her head to make sure I see the same picture. I'm sure those are all the same things that most people do. I signal for the first bird. At this trial, they had the gunners timing of shooting very close together. I don't think I've ever had them that close together. I was unable to signal for the second bird, the judges signaled for you. Life is different in field trials. So the action is boom boom. Lucy picked up her first birds both times very easily. It was the memory birds she had trouble with. The first time was due to the cover and the line had to be moved quite a distance for that series to work. Lucy didn't get to run test dog after the line was moved unfortunately. Second series was when she ran so very far beyond the gunner. 

I do try to rehearse in my mind what I'm going to do at the line before I go. As test dog, you get a lot of advice as you are standing there. Especially when you know most of the people. And I had a show puppy, so people wanted to see how Lucy did. 

The good news is Lucy has a lot of drive and is very birdy. She is an extreme perseverance type personality. The bad news is, she could have used more training before the derby. But someone has to do test dog right? I've got 2 more chances to run Lucy as test dog this summer. Depending on my schedule I may do that. Any chance you to train is a good one and it was good for both of us.

Doing it over again, I would have run the trial as singles instead of doubles.

Anyone else out there ever run their dog as test dog at a field trial? What was your experience?


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## hollyk

Alaska7133 said:


> Lucy trains all winter in a white environment with dark coats and flagman bumpers. This spring I did not do any white coats.
> 
> As the test dog, you are the first dog to run a trial and there isn't often much scent. As the test dog, everyone hopes to see what kind of mistakes a dog can make. It the mark that she ran very long, the gallery had some theories. (Aren't galleries good for that!) Theories were that she went chasing a swallow or some other small animal possibly. She also went into a hole that she could not see back at the line or the gunner and the brush was high and maybe got a bit lost.
> 
> Whenever I do a double, I try to set the dog up at the memory bird with their spine straight at that gunner. Then I wait a long moment, turn her to the second bird, say mark, then turn her back to the memory bird. Before I send I make sure her spine is straight. I lean over her head to make sure I see the same picture. I'm sure those are all the same things that most people do. I signal for the first bird. At this trial, they had the gunners timing of shooting very close together. I don't think I've ever had them that close together. I was unable to signal for the second bird, the judges signaled for you. Life is different in field trials. So the action is boom boom. Lucy picked up her first birds both times very easily. It was the memory birds she had trouble with. The first time was due to the cover and the line had to be moved quite a distance for that series to work. Lucy didn't get to run test dog after the line was moved unfortunately. Second series was when she ran so very far beyond the gunner.
> 
> I do try to rehearse in my mind what I'm going to do at the line before I go. As test dog, you get a lot of advice as you are standing there. Especially when you know most of the people. And I had a show puppy, so people wanted to see how Lucy did.
> 
> The good news is Lucy has a lot of drive and is very birdy. She is an extreme perseverance type personality. The bad news is, she could have used more training before the derby. But someone has to do test dog right? I've got 2 more chances to run Lucy as test dog this summer. Depending on my schedule I may do that. Any chance you to train is a good one and it was good for both of us.
> 
> Doing it over again, I would have run the trial as singles instead of doubles.
> 
> Anyone else out there ever run their dog as test dog at a field trial? What was your experience?


I believe in all tests HT, FT or WC/X you only call for the first bird.

You could just run it as singles or you could work with her to build memory and run cover more. 
Seems like most of our cover around here has had it's first cut for hay. One day you have too much and the next it's a golf coarse.


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## MillionsofPeaches

okay you do it differently than I do. I've always lined up my dogs where I predict the bird will fall. I don't know if this is a bad thing or good thing to do but it has saved my [email protected]@ a few times. Since Katniss has such a hard time seeing with her cataracts in certain circumstances she has missed the bird even going off at all even with her focusing out. It is almost always in grey mornings against a backdrop of the dark pine woods. Anyway, even if she doesn't see it she will take a straight line on her name and it makes me giggle a bit because people will say oh look at that she marked it perfectly. But I know that she didn't see it, I can tell her behavior.


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## K9-Design

Alaska7133 said:


> Anyone else out there ever run their dog as test dog at a field trial? What was your experience?


Yes Fisher ran test dog 1st series of the qual at Jacksonville land triple and stomped on it, Slater test dog for land blind at the GRCA national in Texas -- 3 whistles 

I also was marshaling the Open at Jacksonville a few years prior, the judges assumed I had a setup dog, so here's me with Fisher running the open land marks as singles while all 50 handlers watched --- I about peed my pants

Remember test dog is not about finding the pitfalls of the test, it is about seeing where the dog can go out of sight, where the birds fall, cadence of throws, etc. It doesn't matter if the dog can't finish the test and just because the test dog does well or has trouble shouldn't have any bearing on how the test is run or judged.


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## gdgli

IMO, what you do at the line with the dog depends upon the dog.


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## Alaska7133

George, I agree with your statement. 

One thing about being at a test/trial is, you relax and get to watch other handlers run their dogs. It's quite an education to be able to watch other people both from the line or as a gunner. 

Last weekend I watched a puppy out of Flash (FC AFC Topbrass No Time to Paws) do very well. He's owned by a friend that hasn't had a field trial dog in a few years. She's retired now and has the time to really completely focus on training her dog. She doesn't own any other dogs and she has many decades of experience with field trial dogs. It's nice to watch how calm she is running that wild puppy. His lines manners were excellent. They were both very calm and focused. That's pretty hard to do with a wild child puppy like that. He went out on the last bird unfortunately. I'm sure he'll do better at the next derby.


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## FTGoldens

Claudia M said:


> Mike Lardy in his video Total Retriever Marking he advises all dogs to train with the white coats, either for hunt test or field trials. I have done both with my girls and did not see a confusion in them.


Yep, I agree with Mike ... imagine that!
Many top shelf pros train with white coats most of the time, then take off the white coats a couple days before the hunt test.
All good!
FTGoldens


----------



## FTGoldens

KNorman said:


> Have you ever stepped to the line to run an All-Age Field Trial? Do you know what it takes to send a dog to a National?


Hi there KNorman!:wavey:
You are sooo right!
It demands a whole different level of dog, level of training, and level of commitment to get an invitation to a National, whether THE National or the National Amateur.
FTGoldens


----------



## KNorman

Alaska7133 said:


> George, I agree with your statement.
> 
> One thing about being at a test/trial is, you relax and get to watch other handlers run their dogs. It's quite an education to be able to watch other people both from the line or as a gunner.
> 
> Last weekend I watched a puppy out of Flash (FC AFC Topbrass No Time to Paws) do very well. He's owned by a friend that hasn't had a field trial dog in a few years. She's retired now and has the time to really completely focus on training her dog. She doesn't own any other dogs and she has many decades of experience with field trial dogs. It's nice to watch how calm she is running that wild puppy. His lines manners were excellent. They were both very calm and focused. That's pretty hard to do with a wild child puppy like that. He went out on the last bird unfortunately. I'm sure he'll do better at the next derby.


He is a nice dog


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## Alaska7133

Flash has produced nice litters. This local pup I wouldn't mind having myself.


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## KNorman

Alaska7133 said:


> Flash has produced nice litters. This local pup I wouldn't mind having myself.


Yeah....I'm training one of his littermates.


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## Alaska7133

I look at litters like that and I think I want one, then I realize I couldn't do justice to the breeding. I just don't have the experience. We also have such a short FT season here with only 6 trials, that really it isn't fair to the dog. Hope you are having fun. So given the age of your pup, you are running out of time to run derbies here soon too. Are you coming to national?


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> I look at litters like that and I think I want one, then I realize I couldn't do justice to the breeding. I just don't have the experience. We also have such a short FT season here with only 6 trials, that really it isn't fair to the dog. Hope you are having fun. So given the age of your pup, you are running out of time to run derbies here soon too. Are you coming to national?


I understand why you would say that, BUT you may be limiting yourself. If you want to learn how to train for field trials, get a puppy which has a pedigree that shows real potential to be a field trial competitor. 
With such a pup, you will probably find that some things about retrieving just come more naturally to the field bred dogs (maybe some of the folks who have recently acquired pups from FT breedings can chime in on this ... maybe I'm seriously mistaken about that point, so they can disagree).
And remember, the dog just wants to retrieve ... it doesn't care if he/she is going to become an FC/AFC ... the titles are for people.
Plus, YOU will learn by training a dog that has lots of natural talent ... it caused me to push myself to learn more about training AND, especially, about handling (and I'm still learning).
FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

Food for thought. Looking at Lucy it has been training by the millimeter. Finding a dog that is easier to train would be nice! With 3 dogs DH is not too impressed with getting dog number 4.


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> Food for thought. Looking at Lucy it has been training by the millimeter. Finding a dog that is easier to train would be nice! With 3 dogs DH is not too impressed with getting dog number 4.


Ahhh, come on! 
Four is a nice, even number.


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## Alaska7133

So in my car if I take the crew and DH. I drive, DH rides in the passenger seat. Hunter is in the back seat with all the dog crap (he rides on top of it). Then Lucy and Reilly are in crates in the far back. Hunter is old and doesn't need to be in a crate anymore. So I'm struggling to figure out where to put another dog. But wait, DH is talking about getting a bigger vehicle and maybe making it a sprinter van... So maybe secretly DH is wishing for a 4th dog... Hmmm maybe 4 dogs is possible...


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## KNorman

Alaska7133 said:


> I look at litters like that and I think I want one, then I realize I couldn't do justice to the breeding. I just don't have the experience. We also have such a short FT season here with only 6 trials, that really it isn't fair to the dog. Hope you are having fun. So given the age of your pup, you are running out of time to run derbies here soon too. Are you coming to national?


I focus on All Age dogs, so no...we won't run any derbies. This pup is a lot of fun to train  If you're referring to the National Specialty, no. Not my sort of thing. 

It might be blasphemy to say on this board, even though I've owned 5 Goldens and done some basics on a couple of other really nice young ones, I prefer labs.


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## Alaska7133

Yes that is blasphemy... Maybe this Flash puppy might change your mind and bring you over to the other side.


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## KNorman

Lol...I doubt it...but never say never.


To answer your original question: 

I don't think running two similar "activities" is necessarily a bad thing. If you use HTs/FTs as an example, I always train for AA work, but if I decide to go run a Master test, I simply remove the visible guns a few days before the test and run shorter marks. 

I find the use of visible guns enhances my dogs' marking. It teaches them to hold their lines and not to cave into the factors. This is especially true when a dog is comfortable with both long and short retired guns. They can easily make the transition to hidden guns. You just have to really be aware of your line mechanics and work them into their "easy" cues. 

Having a really good group helps a lot. A bird boy that knows when to help and when not to is important, especially on short retired guns. 

I was dating a HT gal about a year ago and she asked me to come run some Master tests with her, so I did. We ran 5 Master tests with triples (45 marks) and didn't handle on a single mark. So....train hard and test easy. 
However, I will say we bombed our title run (6th test) when he decided to go long and I couldn't handle him back down into a short bird....he simply couldn't believe a bird was only 20 yards out and blew through it big time. :doh: it was a beautiful big slice of humble pie that I laugh about to this day.


----------



## Claudia M

FTGoldens said:


> Ahhh, come on!
> Four is a nice, even number.


I have tried my darn-est to get her hooked up with a Mav Buffy puppy. I believe there are some Mav puppies just born recently!


----------



## Claudia M

FTGoldens said:


> I understand why you would say that, BUT you may be limiting yourself. If you want to learn how to train for field trials, get a puppy which has a pedigree that shows real potential to be a field trial competitor.
> With such a pup, you will probably find that some things about retrieving just come more naturally to the field bred dogs (maybe some of the folks who have recently acquired pups from FT breedings can chime in on this ... maybe I'm seriously mistaken about that point, so they can disagree).
> And remember, the dog just wants to retrieve ... it doesn't care if he/she is going to become an FC/AFC ... the titles are for people.
> Plus, YOU will learn by training a dog that has lots of natural talent ... it caused me to push myself to learn more about training AND, especially, about handling (and I'm still learning).
> FTGoldens


hahaha Belle has been amazing. She is a Mav x Buffy pup. I know what Stacey is saying about feeling bad for owning such a dog. But honestly I feel lucky and humbled for having a dog from such breeding. She is the sweetest dog around the house and the drive in the field is impeccable. This dog absolutely shows what a golden should be like. 
I was training with a lab field trial group a week ago. I was more than proud to see the awe of the guys on Belle. 
I know I only have time on weekends to train, I am not retired or a stay at home mom but with the training places Rose and Darcy have brought me to I sure hope that in the little time I have to train Belle will have more opportunities than either of the two. She is truly a natural.


----------



## KNorman

Claudia M said:


> I have tried my darn-est to get her hooked up with a Mav Buffy puppy. I believe there are some Mav puppies just born recently!


Which Mav is this?


----------



## Claudia M

KNorman said:


> Which Mav is this?


Smokingold Max Q Maverick - Mav & Semper Fi Bayside Athena - Buffy.


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## KNorman

I thought so, but I don't keep up with all the call names. 
Mav has run under me.


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## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> No, it won't, quite the opposite, it has helped him tremendously. Dan and I both feel it was the best thing I could have done with him. Keep in mind a lot of people who run hunt tests also actively hunt their dogs.
> What did happen, though, is I totally let his water blinds go to heck because I was concentrating on the upland hunting, to the exclusion of anything else. That's not a problem with crossing over the two venues, that's a problem with Barb being lazy, and also not having time to train her dog. When you only have 2-3 hours a month to train, you have to let something go, and that's what I did. He wasn't running water blinds at a level I would consider comfortable for Master, and then we basically took a year off from running them other than very short, simple ones as required by the upland hunting tests.
> Now we have to try to* catch up on the water blind skills*.
> It's really hard to explain how much the upland hunting helps the dog in hunt tests. For one thing,* I think it helps them see the picture of what you are doing out there. He learned to trust me that if I say there's a bird out there (on a blind), it's out there, regardless of how bad or long the journey is to get to it*. *He has learned* that he's on his own out there on a mark (he's frequently out of my sight when going after a downed upland bird) and he needs to keep looking until he finds the bird. He has learned to use the wind, and *to put up an intelligent hunt*. He has learned to really pay attention to where that mark goes down. *And the biggest thing he has learned is a huge amount of confidence in himself, and trust in me.*
> edit to add...the upland hunting has also taught him HUGE HUGE steadiness. If a dog can be steady to wing and shot when flushing a big rooster pheasant, he can sit still while some dead birds go down.


Barb, you know I am not being sarcastic in my question but I am confused. If he has learned to trust you then where does the water blind problem come from? Especially if water blind work (IMHO) comes after excellence on land blinds. I may be wrong about that. 

I am of the opinion that even actual hunting can mess up a dog in testing. A dog that can hunt does not necessarily pass a master hunt or even a senior hunt. It takes at least a couple days to weeks (depending on the dog) to get them back into hunt test arena.


----------



## Claudia M

KNorman said:


> I focus on All Age dogs, so no...we won't run any derbies. This pup is a lot of fun to train  If you're referring to the National Specialty, no. Not my sort of thing.
> 
> It might be blasphemy to say on this board, even though I've owned 5 Goldens and done some basics on a couple of other really nice young ones,* I prefer labs*.


OHHHH - it looks like you are another work on project!  I already have another couple ones in the works. So do not feel singled out. 
I do know what you mean and I certainly appreciate your candor. I think you have a lot of input here and none would be blasphemy. 
Maybe more blasphemy would me telling you how much I would love to have an "exotic dog" (as someone put it at a field trial I recently observed) beat the black dog. Even though, after I saw this black young lab pup run I started rooting for him. He was indeed without fault and a pleasure to watch. And then when I met a guy who was running in his first Qual ever and he screwed up his dog on the water blind while the dog actually saved him I was rooting for him as well.


----------



## hotel4dogs

The water blind problem comes mostly from not seeing enough pictures in the water, as we basically took a year off from training them. And, even more so, being allowed to hunt extensively on blinds. That's how they run them in the Spaniel tests, the dogs are just given a general line and then expected to hunt the blind up themself, more similar to a hunting experience. He was solid enough on land blinds that it didn't have any real effect, but not all that solid on water blinds going into it, so he learned for a year that it was okay to just head straight to the opposite shore and then put up a big hunt.
So now we are trying to re-introduce some very tight angle entries and exits. As all dogs do, he wants to square the shore, but he has been allowed to do it so he's got to learn the rule change. That's not really a matter of trust, it's a matter of learning that what used to be okay to do, isn't any more.
The other thing we are working on is the bigger water picture. He's not used to seeing 125-150 yards of swimming water very often. Yes, he's seen it when part of it is splashing (or running) water, but the big swims he hasn't seen a lot of, and he needs to especially now that water blinds can be up to 150 yards. 
He hasn't seen many (like, 1) water series where there's a triple with a blind up the middle, between some tight marks. That type of thing. Add to it that we only train a total of about 3 hours a month, and it takes a while to get these concepts down. We went all the way back to swim-by to remind him of the handling in the water process.
Dan keeps telling me that Tito does NOT have any problems with water blinds, and I guess I shouldn't be calling it that. What he has is a lack of experience with the "big boy blinds" that he is going to be required to run in Master. 
And you are right, we worked hard on land blinds first, and his land blinds (in general) are excellent. But unfortunately, tight angle entries and exits in water, and big swims, really need to be done only in water.
I know the next logical question is whether or not I regret taking the time off and running the Spaniel tests, and the answer is absolutely, resoundingly no. We had a fantastic time doing it, to be honest it was WAY more fun than any of the retriever training or tests have been. Just a personal choice, I'm not trying to put down the retriever tests, they're fun in a different way. Believe it or not, to me the titles aren't as important as my dog and I having fun (I know that's hard to believe) and Tito will never know if he has a MH title or not. But we had the most amazing year last year running the Spaniel tests, it was the most fun of anything we have done together. We made some fantastic memories.
edit to add--just popped over to the field training, June, thread and read my entry from last week. That's another example of what we need to work on, the many, many pictures you might see on water blinds that you can't train for on land, like the blind being 25 yards out of the water up a steep hill. He didn't have any trouble with it (he trusted me), but he's never seen the picture before.





Claudia M said:


> Barb, you know I am not being sarcastic in my question but I am confused. If he has learned to trust you then where does the water blind problem come from? Especially if water blind work (IMHO) comes after excellence on land blinds. I may be wrong about that.
> 
> I am of the opinion that even actual hunting can mess up a dog in testing. A dog that can hunt does not necessarily pass a master hunt or even a senior hunt. It takes at least a couple days to weeks (depending on the dog) to get them back into hunt test arena.


----------



## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> The water blind problem comes mostly from not seeing enough pictures in the water, as we basically took a year off from training them. And, even more so, being allowed to hunt extensively on blinds. That's how they run them in the Spaniel tests, the dogs are just given a general line and then expected to hunt the blind up themself, more similar to a hunting experience. He was solid enough on land blinds that it didn't have any real effect, but not all that solid on water blinds going into it, so he learned for a year that it was okay to just head straight to the opposite shore and then put up a big hunt.
> So now we are trying to re-introduce some very tight angle entries and exits. As all dogs do, he wants to square the shore, but he has been allowed to do it so he's got to learn the rule change. That's not really a matter of trust,* it's a matter of learning that what used to be okay to do, isn't any more.*
> The other thing we are working on is the bigger water picture. He's not used to seeing 125-150 yards of swimming water very often. Yes, he's seen it when part of it is splashing (or running) water, but the big swims he hasn't seen a lot of, and he needs to especially now that water blinds can be up to 150 yards.
> He hasn't seen many (like, 1) water series where there's a triple with a blind up the middle, between some tight marks. That type of thing. Add to it that we only train a total of about 3 hours a month, and it takes a while to get these concepts down. We went all the way back to swim-by to remind him of the handling in the water process.
> Dan keeps telling me that Tito does NOT have any problems with water blinds, and I guess I shouldn't be calling it that. What he has is a lack of experience with the "big boy blinds" that he is going to be required to run in Master.
> And you are right, we worked hard on land blinds first, and his land blinds (in general) are excellent. But unfortunately, tight angle entries and exits in water, and big swims, really need to be done only in water.
> I know the next logical question is whether or not I regret taking the time off and running the Spaniel tests, and the answer is absolutely, resoundingly no. We had a fantastic time doing it, to be honest it was WAY more fun than any of the retriever training or tests have been. Just a personal choice, I'm not trying to put down the retriever tests, they're fun in a different way. Believe it or not, to me the titles aren't as important as my dog and I having fun (I know that's hard to believe) and Tito will never know if he has a MH title or not. But we had the most amazing year last year running the Spaniel tests, it was the most fun of anything we have done together. We made some fantastic memories.
> edit to add--just popped over to the field training, June, thread and read my entry from last week. That's another example of what we need to work on, the many, many pictures you might see on water blinds that you can't train for on land, like the blind being 25 yards out of the water up a steep hill. He didn't have any trouble with it (he trusted me), but he's never seen the picture before.


I may be wrong but I think this is where Stacey was coming from in her question of the week. 

Putting the dog in different venues does affect the dog. The dog learns a behavior and then all of a sudden that learned behavior is no longer allowed. Such as allowing to hunt on a blind, squaring the shore...etc


----------



## FTGoldens

KNorman said:


> I focus on All Age dogs, so no...we won't run any derbies. This pup is a lot of fun to train  If you're referring to the National Specialty, no. Not my sort of thing.
> 
> It might be blasphemy to say on this board, even though I've owned 5 Goldens and done some basics on a couple of other really nice young ones, I prefer labs.


KNorman,
You ought to give Kip Kemp a call and ask him about his young Golden, "Fly". He may not be totally, 100% converted to long-haired dogs, but from what I've heard, he's pretty darn happy with that boy.
(For those of you who don't know Kip, he's a long-time Labrador field trialer, who has owned and trained something over 20 Field Champions/Amateur Field Champions; he is currently campaigning a Golden for the first time in his life.)
FTGoldens


----------



## hotel4dogs

Right, I get that. But it brings me back to what Dan said, that people who can't train in 2 venues aren't good enough trainers.
I'm not a good enough trainer to do it, obviously. Had he been in the hands of a good trainer, it wouldn't have been an issue. He would have trained more often, more consistently, and not been allowed the things that I allowed. 
Dan runs his dogs in HRC, and has put several GRHRCH titles on dogs. I don't know how familiar you are with HRC, but that's a very high level title, most consider it harder than a MH title. His dogs run retriever tests, upland tests, and are hunting dogs. A lot of them guide hunts, and they do driven hunts. They have no problems with it. 
I didn't "have to" allow Tito to square the shores, and I could have given him big swims, and I could have not allowed him the big hunts. It was the easy way out.



Claudia M said:


> I may be wrong but I think this is where Stacey was coming from in her question of the week.
> 
> Putting the dog in different venues does affect the dog. The dog learns a behavior and then all of a sudden that learned behavior is no longer allowed. Such as allowing to hunt on a blind, squaring the shore...etc


----------



## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> Right, I get that. But it brings me back to what Dan said, that people who can't train in 2 venues aren't good enough trainers.
> I'm not a good enough trainer to do it, obviously. Had he been in the hands of a good trainer, it wouldn't have been an issue. He would have trained more often, more consistently, and not been allowed the things that I allowed.
> Dan runs his dogs in HRC, and has put several GRHRCH titles on dogs. I don't know how familiar you are with HRC, but that's a very high level title, most consider it harder than a MH title. His dogs run retriever tests, upland tests, and are hunting dogs. A lot of them guide hunts, and they do driven hunts. They have no problems with it.
> I didn't "have to" allow Tito to square the shores, and I could have given him big swims, and I could have not allowed him the big hunts. It was the easy way out.


I guess that is where I am getting confused. I assumed Dan was training and handling Tito in test, but I guess he only runs him in tests and you train him? From your posts that you wrote that you have been at Dan's I assumed that you were training with the pro who believes trainers are lousy if they only train in one venue. 

He is indeed amazing if he can take his dogs hunting for a month and then put them in the test off the truck with no re-adjustment back to the testing environment.


----------



## FTGoldens

Claudia M said:


> ...he can take his dogs hunting for a month and then put them in the test off the truck with no re-adjustment back to the testing environment.


It's interesting how many (most?) dogs can handle, maybe understand, changes of circumstance. All of the dogs in my training group, and the group trains exclusively for field trials, get to go duck hunting. One of the dogs gets to hunt virtually every day of the season; in fact, he even goes goose hunting in Canada for a week. And strangely, that dog is a perfect gentleman when hunting, but when he sees gunners in the field, whether in training or at a trial, he goes bonkers! Of course, that's the opposite of what one would expect. 
When our field trial dogs hunt, we loosen the standards a bit, but they're not totally relaxed.
I'd be reluctant to participate with my dogs in the Spaniel tests because of the nature of the tests (as was explained by Barb), although it sounds like a whole lot of fun! The looseness allowed (encouraged?) on the blinds could create bigger control problems than I already have.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Dan is my teacher, I am the little grasshopper. He tells me what to do, sets up the stuff, and I do the training under his watchful eye. My sessions with Dan are a one on one private lesson. 
Dan runs Tito in only the HRC tests, Tito has run in 8 of them, has his HRC Seasoned and HRC Upland titles. I choose not to handle the gun, and beyond Started level in HRC you have to handle the gun.
I run Tito in all the AKC tests, including the AKC upland tests, myself, as well as the WC/WCX tests. Dan doesn't do any AKC tests. 
Dan is amazing. His dogs are amazing. His training program is amazing. I cannot speak highly enough of him. 
You have twisted my, and Dan's words. He did not say that trainers are lousy if they train in only one venue. Many people choose to train in only one venue, and that's their choice. He said trainers who are not *able to* train in more than one venue are not good trainers. They are two different things. 




Claudia M said:


> I guess that is where I am getting confused. I assumed Dan was training and handling Tito in test, but I guess he only runs him in tests and you train him? From your posts that you wrote that you have been at Dan's I assumed that you were training with the pro who believes trainers are lousy if they only train in one venue.
> 
> He is indeed amazing if he can take his dogs hunting for a month and then put them in the test off the truck with no re-adjustment back to the testing environment.


----------



## K9-Design

LeBron James last night after the Cavs win : "Life's best teacher is experience."
Some choose to have opinions before they have learned from experience......


----------



## hotel4dogs

If my dog trained or performed at the level of your dogs, I would have felt the same way! But he doesn't, and never will.  



FTGoldens said:


> I'd be reluctant to participate with my dogs in the Spaniel tests because of the nature of the tests (as was explained by Barb), although it sounds like a whole lot of fun! The looseness allowed (encouraged?) on the blinds could create bigger control problems than I already have.


----------



## Alaska7133

As a total novice, I know very little about training dogs. Sure I've taken a few obedience classes and I've been in a few obedience trials, but really training beyond a dog's innate level different. I hope to learn more but sometimes I'm stumped. I know that "dogs are situational" to borrow a Connie Cleveland statement. And I do believe that. I think the only thing keeping my dogs from excelling is me, not the dogs. It is my training ability that is lacking. Getting educated on how to train a dog is not easy for me especially in field training. Which makes me wonder sometimes how the exact same dog might have done with a different owner and trainer. We look at pedigrees all the time and hope that the owners and trainers in that pedigree actually proved the dog's innate abilities. What I mean is, can a dog be trained to a higher level because the owner is a good trainer or because of the breeding of the dog? The age old question of "nature vs nurture".

When we look at a field bred dog and a show dog, are there still enough qualities in that show dog to make it a great field dog even though for the last 5 generations none of the dogs in that pedigree was involved in field work? If that show dog was placed with the right trainer, could it excel to a higher level because of the trainer? At what point does the breeding kick in and bring that dog to a higher level than a dog without that field breeding?


----------



## hotel4dogs

This should probably be a whole new thread.
this is MY opinion only, not backed up by science or anything else.

You can't make a mule become a horse (nature). You can make a good horse act like a mule (nurture). You can make a good horse act like a great horse (nurture). 

What is your definition of a "great field dog"? Is it a dog that is a terrific hunting partner? A dog that gets a MH title? A dog with FC and/or AFC titles? The answer to your *question* would largely depend on your definition of a great field dog.

What do you consider a "show dog"? Is it a dog with a CH title? "Show dogs" would be a very broad category, taking in dogs who have CH in their lines many generations back, to dogs who themselves have a CH title, and so on. Do you refer to dogs who come from specific large "show" kennels who have been bred exclusively to win in the breed ring, or do you refer to any dog with a "show" structure?





Alaska7133 said:


> As a total novice, I know very little about training dogs. Sure I've taken a few obedience classes and I've been in a few obedience trials, but really training beyond a dog's innate level different. I hope to learn more but sometimes I'm stumped. I know that "dogs are situational" to borrow a Connie Cleveland statement. And I do believe that. I think the only thing keeping my dogs from excelling is me, not the dogs. It is my training ability that is lacking. Getting educated on how to train a dog is not easy for me especially in field training. Which makes me wonder sometimes how the exact same dog might have done with a different owner and trainer. We look at pedigrees all the time and hope that the owners and trainers in that pedigree actually proved the dog's innate abilities. What I mean is, can a dog be trained to a higher level because the owner is a good trainer or because of the breeding of the dog? The age old question of "nature vs nurture".
> 
> When we look at a field bred dog and a show dog, are there still enough qualities in that show dog to make it a great field dog even though for the last 5 generations none of the dogs in that pedigree was involved in field work? If that show dog was placed with the right trainer, could it excel to a higher level because of the trainer? At what point does the breeding kick in and bring that dog to a higher level than a dog without that field breeding?


----------



## Alaska7133

Barb,
I'm just philosophizing (hope that's a word)


----------



## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> LeBron James last night after the Cavs win : "Life's best teacher is experience."
> Some choose to have opinions before they have learned from experience......



Not surprised to see a quote from a "drama" queen who has left his team behind and forgot to thank his pro trainers for his "experiences". Maybe he learned a thing or two in life!

Another one who has claimed victories while pro trained and everyone around him has made sacrifices for his "fame". 

To each his hero to follow suit.


----------



## KNorman

FTGoldens said:


> KNorman,
> You ought to give Kip Kemp a call and ask him about his young Golden, "Fly". He may not be totally, 100% converted to long-haired dogs, but from what I've heard, he's pretty darn happy with that boy.
> (For those of you who don't know Kip, he's a long-time Labrador field trialer, who has owned and trained something over 20 Field Champions/Amateur Field Champions; he is currently campaigning a Golden for the first time in his life.)
> FTGoldens


I've run against Kip for years and have seen Fly in action. Very impressive young dog. 
I think the two most impressive young male Goldens I've seen lately are Fly and Bro (Rob E. runs him). 

Our circuit (South La.) is in a bit of a vacuum because it's smack dab in the middle of the Texas and Snowbird circuits. For whatever reason, we just don't have local Goldens campaigned, so unless Rob or Kip (also Andy and Lanier) come run our trials, it's unusual to see a nice Golden. 

As far as running different field venues, it's my practice to develop a young dog to a Q level and then decide to branch out from there. Usually that means continued development toward AA status, but I'm not opposed to running Master tests for giggles. 

I avoid running HRC, which in Louisiana, is unusual. It just doesn't suit my dog goals.
Note I said "running" HRC...I am a current Finished level judge who has titled a GRHRCH/500 point dog. I love the venue.


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## FTGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> If my dog trained or performed at the level of your dogs, I would have felt the same way! But he doesn't, and never will.


I hope you didn't take my comment as a criticism! I believe it's great to play all the games that you have the time for (and the dog for). Because my focus is field trials, for me it's tough enough to compete if I keep them on track. 
FTGoldens


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## krazybronco2

FTGoldens said:


> I hope you didn't take my comment as a criticism! I believe it's great to play all the games that you have the time for (and the dog for). Because my focus is field trials, for me it's tough enough to compete if I keep them on track.
> FTGoldens


alot of HT and FT trainers feel the same way, even the HRC trainers that go to the grand every spring and fall. dogs wont see any upland work till the night before the upland series at the grand but the grand requires so much control it is almost retarded. i have done just a little bit of upland work but just enough to understand "hunt it up" when we go hunting. mostly because im not a big fan or letting my dog hunt at the end of a blind retrieve even if we are hunting.


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## hotel4dogs

No, no, not at all. And I meant my response honestly and sincerely. My dog plays at a level well under what your dogs are capable of, so it's a whole different situation.



FTGoldens said:


> I hope you didn't take my comment as a criticism! I believe it's great to play all the games that you have the time for (and the dog for). Because my focus is field trials, for me it's tough enough to compete if I keep them on track.
> FTGoldens


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## Claudia M

KNorman said:


> .....
> 
> Our circuit (South La.) is in a bit of a vacuum because it's smack dab in the middle of the Texas and Snowbird circuits. For whatever reason, we just don't have local Goldens campaigned, so unless Rob or Kip (also Andy and Lanier) come run our trials, it's unusual to see a nice Golden.
> 
> ......


I sure hope to see more and more compete. Was very nicely surprised to see 5 goldens entered in a qual this weekend, out of 43.


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## gdgli

KNorman

Andy and Lanier both have very nice dogs. Don't they come down your way?


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## Alaska7133

Last summer I ran 2 of my goldens in the spaniel field fun day that the spaniel club puts on. I thought it would be hard for my dogs to learn how to quarter and find/flush their birds. Boy was I mistaken! There was no learning, they just did it automatically. I'd call them back towards me when they got a little far away, but that was it. They just figured it out naturally. They could smell the birds in the field I think and went on the hunt. I had followed other dogs prior to mine that had experience to see how it was done. My dogs did not watch prior to the other dogs running, so they didn't have any idea. When I entered the field with my dogs, everyone just said, turn them loose. Which surprised me. They told me your dog will have it all figured out. And they did. So if anything, the spaniel tests I thought were easier than a retriever hunt test. The spaniel tests are more innate to how a dog thinks. I'm with Barb on this, upland is the way to go, it is like "doggie crack" as she calls it. Will running my dogs in a spaniel hunt test one week then retriever hunt tests the next mess up my dog? I don't know. Blinds are different definitely. I guess I'll be finding out this summer if Lucy doesn't go into heat.


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## KNorman

gdgli said:


> KNorman
> 
> Andy and Lanier both have very nice dogs. Don't they come down your way?


I mentioned them.


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## krazybronco2

Alaska7133 said:


> Last summer I ran 2 of my goldens in the spaniel field fun day that the spaniel club puts on. I thought it would be hard for my dogs to learn how to quarter and find/flush their birds. Boy was I mistaken! There was no learning, they just did it automatically. I'd call them back towards me when they got a little far away, but that was it. They just figured it out naturally. They could smell the birds in the field I think and went on the hunt. I had followed other dogs prior to mine that had experience to see how it was done. My dogs did not watch prior to the other dogs running, so they didn't have any idea. When I entered the field with my dogs, everyone just said, turn them loose. Which surprised me. They told me your dog will have it all figured out. And they did. So if anything, the spaniel tests I thought were easier than a retriever hunt test. The spaniel tests are more innate to how a dog thinks. I'm with Barb on this, upland is the way to go, it is like "doggie crack" as she calls it. Will running my dogs in a spaniel hunt test one week then retriever hunt tests the next mess up my dog? I don't know. Blinds are different definitely. I guess I'll be finding out this summer if Lucy doesn't go into heat.


upland is easy basically if you dog has a nose and for the HRC upland can sit on a whistle then your pass, but where people get in trouble from what i have seen is trying to do both. there is a local trainer that does alot of upland work and his dogs suffer alot on retriever blinds where control is needed the most. suffer enough to where he only passes about a quarter of the finished tests he runs. so just take that with a grain of salt.


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