# AKC Grand Champion Title



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

so how does everyone feel about this?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Refresh my memory on it--I was just barely looking at it the other day. Isn't it a title for the elite in the show world? Dogs that take group placements and go BIS, right? If so, doesn't sound like a bad idea to me at all. Why not? Give some recognition to those dogs that don't just get champions....


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

*AKC Grand Champion *It's Tito's future title right? 

Really, I have no clue. Doesn't sound too bad though.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

LOL, we're not even too certain about the champion, let alone the grand champion.
It's a new title from AKC for dogs who already champions, I *think* they have to beat a certain number of other same breed dogs in the best of breed competitions, including more major wins, for a total of 25 points or something like that.
I wondered how everyone felt about this, whether it's going to be a big honor, or if it's just another effort on AKC's part to make more money.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I was reading Dog Show Newbie's post and got the money gist and making things more complicated, but--

In obedience dogs can get an OTCH
In Agility they can get MACH

So why not Gr. Ch.? I think it would be great to recognize the top champions this way! I mean, the people that already play in the specials ring could have something to show that. It doesn't sound like it costs more (unless of course you decide to try for it instead of just being happy with Ch.)

But you never said what you thought about it? I'm curious


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Grand Champion

On May 12, 2010 the Grand Championship competition will start concurrent with the implementation of the 2010-2011 Schedule of Points. Competition for this new title will be judged concurrently with Best of Breed competition at both all-breed and specialty shows. 
*Why does AKC offer Grand Champion? *

For many owners there is little incentive to continue to exhibit dogs that have completed their championship title. All exhibitors do not have the financial means or desire to extensively campaign a dog in pursuit of top rankings. This title permits quality dogs to be recognized without extensive travel as the Grand Champion title can be earned at all shows with Best of Breed competition.
*How does a dog earn the Grand Champion title? *

Only Champions are eligible to earn Grand Championship points. (This includes dogs that are “moved up” to Best of Breed competition from completing the requirements for their CH title at a previous show.)
Best of Breed, Best of Opposite Sex, Select Dog and Select Bitch are eligible to earn Grand Championship Points. Select Dog and Select Bitch are Champions that were recognized as the top quality of their sex after BOB and BOS have been awarded. Judges need not award Grand Championship points to dogs that in their opinion are not worthy of the award.
Grand Championship points are earned using the same schedule of points as is used for Championship points and the title requires:
Twenty five Grand Champion points including,
three “majors” (three or more points) won under three different judges,
and at least one or more of these points won under a fourth judge.
They must also have defeated at least one other AKC Champion at three shows.

*How are Grand Championship points determined?* 

Grand Championship Points are determined using the schedule of points for each breed in each division. However, all dogs defeated by BOB, BOS, Select Dog or Select Bitch will be counted in the computation. Grand Champion points may be awarded to eligible dogs as follows:
Best of Breed – All dogs of the both sexes in the breed or variety exhibited in the regular classes and Best of Breed competition will be counted.
Best of Opposite Sex to Best of Breed - All dogs of the same sex in the breed or variety exhibited in the regular classes and Best of Breed competition will be counted.
Select Dog or Select Bitch – One dog less that the number of dogs of the same sex in the breed or variety exhibited in the regular classes and Best of Breed competition will be counted.
Champions of Record including champions that are non-regular class winners or dogs that have been “moved up” to Best of Breed competition for the show are the only dogs eligible for Grand Championship points. Although class dogs can win BOB or BOS, they have not yet obtained their CH title and are not eligible for Grand Champion competition. (_Dogs entered in non-regular classes are not counted in the computation of Championship or Grand Championship points.)_

*How does the Grand Champion competition affect the show-giving club?* 

Based on the enthusiastic exhibitors’ comments, we anticipate a significant increase in the entry of champions competing for Grand Championship points at both all-breed and specialty shows. The only increased expense will be one additional ribbon if three champions are entered or two additional if four or more AKC champions are entered in Best of Breed competition in that breed or variety. AKC will be sending email to the owners of all dogs that have finished since 1/1/2007 to inform them of this new opportunity to showcase their dogs.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm totally new to this, but I thought the show dog hall of fame was after they got 25 points, right? Is this the same thing with a different name?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't really know what to think, that's why I was asking input from people who've been around the show scene WAY longer than I have.
As an aside, the CH is already comparable to the OTCH. It's a champion of record, and represents defeating a certain number of other dogs a certain number of times, thus it's a competitive title and properly goes before the dog's name. Same with the OTCH, you have to win first place at least 3 times and defeat a certain number of other dogs to get enough points for an OTCH.
There's been a lot of discussion about the MACH, because it's a non-competitive title and therefore, according to AKC precedent, shouldn't preceed the name but rather should come after it. The titles before the name (CH, OTCH, FCH, etc) are (or were) supposed to be the competive titles that indicated the dog has competed against other dogs and was found to be superior. I have no feelings on the MACH one way or the other, it takes so very much to earn one I can see it coming before the name, but on the other hand it is NOT a competitive title, so I can see the other point of view as well. 
But I digress.
It just seems to me that the AKC keep trying to come up with *new* titles to get people to compete more, and spend more money. For example, all the new obedience titles like graduate novice, graduate open, obedience master, obedience grand master, and so on. 
But on the other hand, there's nothing wrong with people having fun seeking more titles, if they have the money to do so. If you already have an OTCH, where do you go from there? Now you can become an obedience grand master. So I guess it gives top level competitors something more to strive for.
I really don't know what to think of it!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

no, this is something totally different. For SDHF, you need to get group placements. For this, it's within your own breed. The title will be a formal AKC title, carried before the name, unlike SDHF which is an honorary listed after the name and not a title.





goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm totally new to this, but I thought the show dog hall of fame was after they got 25 points, right? Is this the same thing with a different name?


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

My opinion is the Grand Champion title is another way for the AKC to increase revenue. It may work for a breed like ours where you have 4 or so Specials (usually) at a show.

But I just got back at the large West Palm Beach shows, and in some breeds there were only a few entries, such as Borzoi's, where there was one, or Belgium Terv's, where there were two--what good is this new title?

And yes, like others have pointed out, you have the GRCA SDHF designation--it is not an AKC title, but a GRCA title, earned by goldens according to a point schedule on group placements.

I guess with Grand Champion you can basically test the limits of your CH and see how many BOB's are in him (or her)--but that SDHF designation sure is nice!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I've always thought it was kind of weird that the only official AKC title in conformation is the CH, when everything else has so many titles. But I doubt that the goal is actually to "permit quality dogs to be recognized."

(And that's pretty thought-provoking about the MACH. Maybe we should start a new thread about that? I can see both sides as well, but I don't think anyone who's gotten a MACH would agree that it should come after the name : )


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> I was reading Dog Show Newbie's post and got the money gist and making things more complicated, but--
> 
> In obedience dogs can get an OTCH
> In Agility they can get MACH
> ...


Well...maybe. OTCH and MACH are big accomplishments requiring a great deal of training and consistency. For a great many dogs out there a CH is a matter of how persistent the owner is and much money the owner has to spend with big time handlers. We all know handlers that could finish a dairy cow - as an aside those are often the same handlers that make me cringe - rolling up to shows in a HUGE trailer with 15 goldens covered in poop left unattended in the blazing hot sun - yet people still send their dogs out with them and it disgusts me. Seriously how can these owners not see the condition that they send their dogs to? Yet those handlers win a lot - and people keep sending them their dogs.

There aren't many professional agility/obedience handlers out there - and agility and obedience aren't as subjective as who's winning in the breed ring. There's a lot of promotion that is going on behind the scenes of the big breed dogs. Look at the AKC weekly wins news letter - it's not so much as a brag as it is an advertisement for future entries.

The Canadians have a Gr CH and in addition to a number of BOB, group and BIS wins the dog also has to pass the Canadian CGN (like a CGC) - by far this is usually the last requirement they fulfill. This is not to say that the companion event titles are inexpensive - they aren't. I have a friend who when her dog finishes her MACH - she's really close now it will probably be about an $80,000 title (over about 6 years). To campaign a dog like Sadie (the scottie), her owners have invested probably $250,000 this year in expenses, entries and advertisement - and Sadie is a GREAT dog - it'd be double that if she weren't a great example of the breed.

I can't do either honestly - and I'm not sure I would even if I could.

Conformation isn't my thing - I have a dog that could finish IF I wanted to put 20lbs of weight on him and if I wanted to consistently send him out (in my case go with him) to shows 2-3 weekends a month - all told an American Championship costs about $20,000. Its not my priority - I have a hard time wondering who would decide to keep their dog out for a GR CH if they hadn't already decided to special it...in other words, the people who were going to keep their dogs out as a special will still do so - but I doubt that people who finish their dogs to a CH and then retire it for breeding are going to decide to special it just because there's a new Gr CH title.

Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I do want to make a comment about handlers. It's like any other profession, there are good ones and bad ones, and horrible ones.
The "big name" handlers that I've been in contact with interview the dog before agreeing to take it. As one of them told me, "we have a reputation to protect. We will NOT take just any dog into the ring". 
When I contacted one about showing Tito, I was asked to send photos of him, as well as his pedigree information. Luckily, they had seen him at a recent show and just needed to be reminded who he is.
And SOMETIMES that's why some handlers win "all the time". Because they do in fact show quality dogs.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Either way you put it--I just don't see it as being a big deal. Sure, it may be AKC trying to get more money but if people want to spend their money on that, that is their choice.

I never though about the performance aspect vs the Ch, MACH and OTCH. It is very interesting...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I guess I see it as a way for people who are not experts in the breed to differentiate between the good and great show dogs (as much as a conformation show can do that).The GRCA does offer SDHF, but that is only for golden retrievers. This is something that would be recognized by all breeds.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

katieanddusty said:


> I've always thought it was kind of weird that the only official AKC title in conformation is the CH, when everything else has so many titles. But I doubt that the goal is actually to "permit quality dogs to be recognized."
> 
> (And that's pretty thought-provoking about the MACH. Maybe we should start a new thread about that? I can see both sides as well, but I don't think anyone who's gotten a MACH would agree that it should come after the name : )


Maybe I've spent too much time on K9 data, but IMHO, at least in the golden world (and maybe in other worlds too) there are, if not other "titles," other "designations" that are descriptive in the conformation arena. They may not be the same as CDX, NAJ, MX, SH, etc, but they are telling nonetheless. For example:


"Minor RWD (or RWB) winner" -- 1st runner up to the winner (but didn't finish CH)
"Minor pointed" -- took WD or WB at smaller shows (but didn't finish CH)
"Major pointed" -- took WD or WB at larger shows (but didn't finish CH)


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I do want to make a comment about handlers. It's like any other profession, there are good ones and bad ones, and horrible ones.
> The "big name" handlers that I've been in contact with interview the dog before agreeing to take it. As one of them told me, "we have a reputation to protect. We will NOT take just any dog into the ring".
> When I contacted one about showing Tito, I was asked to send photos of him, as well as his pedigree information. Luckily, they had seen him at a recent show and just needed to be reminded who he is.
> And SOMETIMES that's why some handlers win "all the time". Because they do in fact show quality dogs.


In an ideal world yes - however, there are several big-name handlers who know that they can bring an antelope to certain judges and take points on that antelope - indeed finish that antelope. Some handlershave standards - some don't. Some handlers have an awful lot of gas dogs: one or two really nice specials and then will basically take any class dog that is offered to them. Even the slimiest of the slimey won't take on just any special.

I don't begrudge handlers a living - I used a handler w/ Teller in Canada - but there is so much favoritism and politics that go along with the breed ring that it's very hard for a quality show dog to win on it's own merits under a lot of judges...And yes, the other part of this a handler can present an antelope and make it look pretty good.
Erica


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

There are ABSOLUTELY some judges who will only put up handlers, and some judges that will only put up certain handlers. I've seen it so blantantly at a couple of shows that everyone just walked away shaking their heads. 
But there are also some judges, I've shown to some of them, who couldn't care less who is on the other end of the lead and will seek out the best dog in the ring. 
There are some judges who only like big, furry, blonde dogs. I avoid them like the plague. I look for judges who like a moderate, athletic dog (Tito only weighs 69 pounds and so far that hasn't really been an issue for us). A GOOD handler will also tell you which judges you should avoid because they simply will not like your dog. In their years of experience, they know what dog to bring to which judge. 
No matter how good my handler is, they can't make Tito look like he's a tall, heavy boned, substantial, heavy coated dog. But they can present him to his very best, groomed to perfection, and showing off his best virtues.





MurphyTeller said:


> In an ideal world yes - however, there are several big-name handlers who know that they can bring an antelope to certain judges and take points on that antelope - indeed finish that antelope. Some handlershave standards - some don't. Some handlers have an awful lot of gas dogs: one or two really nice specials and then will basically take any class dog that is offered to them. Even the slimiest of the slimey won't take on just any special.
> 
> I don't begrudge handlers a living - I used a handler w/ Teller in Canada - but there is so much favoritism and politics that go along with the breed ring that it's very hard for a quality show dog to win on it's own merits under a lot of judges...And yes, the other part of this a handler can present an antelope and make it look pretty good.
> Erica


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> No matter how good my handler is, they can't make Tito look like he's a tall, heavy boned, substantial, heavy coated dog. But they can present him to his very best, groomed to perfection, and showing off his best virtues.


And they know which judges like their faces - and are likely to put them up....human nature. It's particularly amusing when certain handlers get to choose judging panels.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> all told an American Championship costs about $20,000.


Holy crap - I have 3 Champions showed by a well respected handler and didn't spend close to that amount! My husband would shoot me!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

well here's a blinding flash of the obvious...the better the dog, the less it costs to put the CH on them! There are a few that CH in just a handful of shows, while others can take 2 years of constant showing, and yes, cost a fistful of money to get the CH.
See, you have great dogs!




SunGold said:


> Holy crap - I have 3 Champions showed by a well respected handler and didn't spend close to that amount! My husband would shoot me!


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