# koehler method



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Very old fashioned, corrections based training... I have all his books, and have for years, but I have never used this method since I was maybe 12 years old- back then, that's all I knew.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Old-school compulsion training.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

no wonder I can't find anything on it!
How many of you ear pinch your dogs? Is that like Koehler method?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I wouldn't ear pinch a dog for love nor money. 

Try it on a Whippet, if you want to hear a dog scream in pain, and make him never again trust or respond to you! Such methods may work in a happy, harder edged breed, but it is these methods that caused more sensitive, free thinking breeds to be considered "stupid" when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

I imagine such a method could work with a very tough dog like a field bred Labrador or a particularly happy go lucky Golden. They did work on my Basenji (while very free thinking, unlike other sighthounds, they are tough as nails and hard to break) and Schnauzer when I was a kid, but I am so glad I discovered more positive methods early on!!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The thing with an ear pinch is that if it's going to *work* you won't have to do it more than a few times. I've seen people do it well, and I've seen people be downright abusive with it. And the worst, is that I've seen people use it as an outlet for their frustrations in training.

I tried it with my Whippet... early on in my obedience training career and after months and months of resisting it. She was pinched twice. She didn't scream in pain, and she did get the message - and she's super quick to pick up the dumbbell now -- but it's a quickness that comes from wanting to avoid a pinch and that's not how I want a dog to work for me. So yeah, I used it, and I got the obedience behavior I wanted, but I don't like the baggage that comes with it and she is the first and last dog I'll use it on.

In general, I don't recommend it b/c I think it's difficult to use it well. If you're going to use aversives, you'd better be ****** GOOD AT IT or you'll cause far more damage than it's worth. I also think that very few trainers are good enough to keep THEIR EMOTIONS in check when frustrated in training and if aversives are part of your training, it's often too easy to resort to using them out of frustration -- which is VERY UNFAIR, if not ABUSIVE to the animal.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Some jerk did it to my Whippet (without my permission! Without warning, just walked up and did it!) at open obedience class one night years ago. I had no idea what she was about to do or I would have stopped her. He screamed out in agony, and he wouldn't enter the building again that night. He's not stupid- but that woman is IMO. After that he was fine, and never had another issue with that class or building or any other. But we never did get that retrieve! He is NOT foody at all, so clicking doesn't work on him either. Oh well, a happy, loved dog who enjoys what we CAN do together is more important to me than an obedience title. 

I would bet good money my happy, silly, BOLD, fearless Whippet pup would cry out in pain also if pinched.


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## beargroomer (Jan 2, 2008)

I saw a flyer that said soomething like "Train your dog without bribing him with food" and went to observe a class. I didn't know it was the Koehler method when I went to see the class. The ad didn't mention anything about yanking your dog, yelling in his face, and dragging him around everytime he did something "wrong" (something that is natural to the dog that we humans just happen to think is inappropriate!). I cringed the entire time I was there. At the end of the class, the trainer was demonstrating a recall practice using something called a "throw chain method" (I don't know if this specific thing is a Koehler thing or not, but she says she had been using it forever) and the demonstration just shocked me beyond words. When I saw the trainer's own dog whimpering and running to hide in her van at the sound of the chains, I saw how you can really mess up a dog. I cried on my drive home. 
That trainer is a long time AKC judge, has been a set trainer for movies, and has been teaching for decades, so I'm sure she knows to "use it right"... But her dog was still messed up and although a super obedient one, he clearly was not a happy one. 
There were 2 Golden puppies (about 4 months old) and I pulled the owners aside after the class and told them about the reward based training classes my dog and I were taking that is nearby and that maybe they should try it. One of the women said she was very against bribing a dog and how well this Koehler method was working for her and solving all her puppy's "nasty habits" and "dominance problem" and looked at me like I was stupid. All I know is that my pup has a BLAST everytime we go to class and he LOVES playing with me and training with me. He is super excited to come back to me when I call him and just happy to be with me. And he's perfectly well behaved and a joy to live with, WITHOUT the harsh training. Her pup didn't even meet her eye the whole time and she had to drag him around on that choke chain the entire hour. I did not see a single tail wag. What made me cringe some more was that some of the students were clearly getting frustrated and yanking the choke chain with a little too much emotion. 
It turns out that Koehler method trainer is the trainer that my private CPDT trainer worked with when he first got into competitive obedience. He said it works and it's FAST (His dog went from an untrained rescue dog to a CD title in under 6 months), but his dog started completely shutting down. One day he came home from work, and the dog was nowhere to be seen. He asked his wife where the dog was and her response was, "He's hiding from you." That did it for him. I could never use a method that would make my dog hide from me.

ETA: Sorry if you were asking only the experts and the people that compete in dog sports. I'm only talking from the average pet owner's perspective. But the class I watched was for average pet owners anyway and I don't think many of them were going to pursue a competitive obedience career. All I know is that none of the students there were giving precisely timed corrections and they were not doing a very good job showing their dogs what they were asking them to do. And I certainly didn't see anyone having fun.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I did force fetch with Gabby and as a result, used the ear pinch. 

It's a correction for a failure to retrieve and that's it. It's not abusive or unfair when done correctly. 

When using "aversives" or corrections, dogs need to know to things: 1) how to stop it and 2) how to avoid it. So you have to teach them the correction. Fairly and slowly. I think there are very few people qualified to teach force fetch- Connie Cleveland and Mike Lardy and Evan Graham are great. 

We taught the ear pinch, and we rarely (and by rarely, I mean 1x every 3 months or so have to correct with it). That's because she knows that there is a correction, but she also knows how to avoid it- and that she gets cheese, play time, etc, when she is right


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

I would love to get a copy of the kohler books one day so this opinion is only from what I have heard of them. Yes they are the old fastioned adverive type. But one thing I have heard in thier favor was how they broke exersizes down into parts. This can be helpfull at times for some people to see exersizes not as a whole but seperate parts. You can corrections or positives but the individual skills needed for an exersixe are still there. Some of us do better with a list to fallow and others of us make our own lists. LOL I'm always trying to take reqular OB exersizes and make them "different"

As far as a forced fetch. I have only taught one dog to formaly reterieve and we haven't show yet soooo. I haven't froced her it has been all postive. She is a not a golden and not a natural reteriver so I was thrilled just to get a reterieve out of her.

I have enjoyed training using more positve methouds (orginally learned the "old" way) But I also communicate wrong choices. I believe if I can tell my dog YES that what I want and NO I don't want that.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I wasn't looking for just professional opinions, I was looking for EVERYONE's opinions. I'd love to hear from more, too.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think force fetch can work on a bone headed, confident, happy, goofy, hard natured dog who is not particularly pain sensitive. But I maintain strongly it's abuse when applied to the average Whippet or Greyhound or similar breed dog. Along the same lines, I fully support prong collars, but putting a prong on either of my Whippets would be abusive. That's what people IMO need to keep in mind. Because it works on a Rottie doesn't mean it's okay to do it to a Greyhound.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

_I think force fetch can work on a bone headed, confident, happy, goofy, hard natured dog who is not particularly pain sensitive. But I maintain strongly it's abuse when applied to the average Whippet or Greyhound or similar breed dog. Along the same lines, I fully support prong collars, but putting a prong on either of my Whippets would be abusive. That's what people IMO need to keep in mind. Because it works on a Rottie doesn't mean it's okay to do it to a Greyhound.

_I think force fetching is - and I forgot to mention this in my post- an individual decision. It's something the owner has to be comfortable with. 
I don't think there is anything more controversial in obedience other than the use of electronic collars. However, I am 100% that the decision to force fetch should be made by an individual for her dog- not based on breed bias, etc. 

If you believe your Whippet is sensitive and don't want to do it, that's one thing. But I think it would be something else if you came to our utility class and told the lady w/ 3 CDX whippets and 1 UD whippet that she is abusive b/c she made the individual decision to force fetch. These dogs live better than any dogs I know! One should evaluate the dog in question- not the breed. 

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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I'll agree with that- but having known hundreds of them- most I would say NO WAY. I recently suggested a prong to a Whippet owner myself 

I think anything that is not necessary for health and life that causes an animal pain and distress is to be avoided when possible. No dog NEEDS to fetch a bell in the open ring to live a happy life as a pet, and I personally will not do something painful to my dog to reach that goal. JMO


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## Soda (Feb 23, 2008)

Going back to the original post about the Koehler Method you may check out Dick Koehler's website for some answers. http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/

I personally don't favor one method over another. I firmly believe a good trainer adapts the method to the dog. I like to have variety of tools in the training toolbox including lots of different methods. 

Having said that, I think it's great when people look at other methods and are interested in learning why and how. Questioning and being open to ideas is what has promoted the more positive modern methods we use today. Kudos to the first poster for starting the discussion.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I do have copies of the books, btw- signed as well! I couldn't resist them when I saw them at a used bookstore for a few bucks a piece! I did read them.


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