# Goldens and Flatties



## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

Cool article. I was told that black is a recessive gene in the goldens due to them originally being black. Not sure if that is true or not. When you look at Murphy, there was a either a flat-coat or something on the dad's side as he's text book flat coat retriever but does not have the narrower head they have. The Darcy's uncle thread describes him to a tee though.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Black is dominant in dog coat color genetics and tan/yellow/gold is recessive that is why you can have both black and yellow labs in the same litter and why occasionally you find a yellow Flat-Coat but you don't see black Goldens.

As to the relationship of the two breeds look at this link where Retrieverman argues that the modern Flat-Coat is a sub-set of the modern Golden.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Here is a nice article by Read Flowers about the Flatties and also the yellow flat coats. 


yellow flatcoats

I attached a pic of a yellow flattie pup and an old pic of a flattie Champion Rogers from 1906. - find some similarities golfgal?


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

I'll let you guys know what the DNA test shows. All I know is we get stopped all the time because of how he looks and is he a flat coat is usually the first thing said to which I say he's just a wannabe. Very interesting articles. At the end of the day, does colour really matter. Dog behavior and characteristics are what I'm concerned with.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess my feeling on this is that take any of the closely related set of breeds and or breeds which had some hand in the forming of the golden retriever breed... and you will be able to spot similarities or sometimes relations probably would astound you. 

Probably a good example of that was I showed a breeder friend a picture of a mismarked golden retriever and asking her how on earth something like that could happen. Literally this golden looked like a golden retriever but had this huge white stripe going down its nose. 

This breeder friend enlightened me on the water spaniel background behind goldens.... including pictures of those water spaniels that were so prominent behind goldens. And you know if you look at the picture below - these dogs looked more like today's water spaniels (Irish Water Spaniel, Portuguese Water Spaniel, American Water Spaniel). 







^ Tweed Water Spaniel



^ Culham Copper, who is in every golden retriever pedigree - who had a lot of white on him. And looking back at those water spaniels, not surprising to see that white, I guess. 

The origins of the golden retriever breed back in the 1860's was a combination of water spaniels like above... and a yellow flat coated retriever. And there have been many combinations of other breeds (setters, other retrievers, etc) since that time to form the golden retriever breed that we have today. 

I think the biggest thing you know looking at golden retrievers as opposed to flat coated retriever - especially if you own both breeds yourself or train around other flat coats... they are completely separate breeds. Whatever similarities there may be between the breeds. Similar to goldens and labs being completely different breeds - despite the more prevalent similarities between those guys! 

While flat coated retrievers were in one way or another mixed in with the goldens at one point during the development of the golden retriever breed, there has been about 100 years worth of difference between the breeds since then.

I think you have a lot of us golden people bristling about some people saying that goldens are just long haired labs. : Imagine the flat coated people who have that with every mixed breed that is long haired and black and likely a lab/golden mix being identified as a flat coated retriever. I don't mean any offense to people here in saying that... I just still am scratching my head about a couple of the threads that were dumped into this new forum.


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

Wow. Well now I feel offended. I hope that wasn't your intent but that's how it came across. I can't say I got that impression from the flat coat owners or breeders that I came across. I've never made any comments about long haired labs, or said that I have a flat-coat and have been pretty up front about my Golden Retriever/Lab dogs. Note to self - colour does matter.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@golfgal - I honestly did not mean you and stated the bold part (me quoting myself) for that reason. I was more responding to what I saw pre-populated in this new forum. 



> *I don't mean any offense to people here in saying that*... I just still am scratching my head about a couple of the threads that were dumped into this new forum.


 And fwiw - that retrieverman article that Selli-Belle linked to? When this forum creates a bunch of new sub forums and pre-populates the duck-tolling one with golden mixes and mismarked goldens (I'm sure they will), it will be worth quoting that section where he indicated the duck tollers have more in common with border collies and Australian shepherds. This was my impression all summer while attending UKC shows with a heavy toller entry - actually parked next to a toller lady for grooming this one time, I kept looking over and thinking "I don't get it" - as far as all the people on this forum claiming the similarities! If I ever agree with Retrieverman - that would be the instance.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

People ask me if Bear is a flattie. I don't take offense but I can understand the offense if someone thought he was a flattie while standing next to an actual flattie. If that makes sense.


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks Kate. Bear has so many colours which is kind of cool. 

Actually what's funny is we were at the beach and ran across this lady and her two flattie's, long time flattie owner, only dogs she's ever owned were flatties. She came up to us wanting to know which breeder Murphy came from. Wish I'd had my camera. You see the three together and it would be hard to tell them apart but I can tell that Murphy's head is not as narrow. Personality wise - text book flat coat. Oh well, he's pretty charming for an accidental litter puppy.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

To some degree I agree with you Kate. The flatties are closer to the field goldens than they are to the show goldens that have split decades ago (since you brought up the 100 difference between the breeds). 
Having been around both and training with both I see more similarities. But again, up to Rose we have owned only field goldens. But I do not recall calling them the same breed.

I honestly I just do not see how this subforum or any other subforum on the other breeds would impact the golden breed. 
As far as the threads in this subforum, I personally see it more of a learning history of the breeds with articles from GRCA FCRSA etc.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

While reading from the first link I posted came across something I found very interesting: 

".....There is a great profusion of coat, of a light, soft, silky hair ... which is rather longer and heavier that the generality of Setters. They are particularly strong and powerful in their forequarters, beautifully feathered on their fore legs, tail and breeches; easily broken, very lofty in carriage, staunch, excellent dogs and good finders. Though liver, or liver and white is not a recognized colour in shows. My belief is that there are as good dogs of this colour as of any other colour.”

This description in many ways fits that of a Golden Retriever. *It might even be possible that the now undesirable white that sometimes shows up on Goldens today is a “throw-back” to these Setters. Laverack goes on to mention another strain of liver-colored Setters called Edmond Castle Setters. These were “likewise liver and white ... These dogs were much lighter and more speedy ... They are very deep, wide, and powerful in the forequarters; well bent in the stifles*...” *It should be pointed out here that during those times “liver” meant any shade of brown, including golden.* Could it be that one of these strains of Setters are the precursors of our Goldens? Was, perhaps, Nous the product of some Setter breeding? It certainly seems possible....."

Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA) HISTORY: The Origins of the Golden Retriever Revisited By Jeffrey Pepper


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