# Feeling at the end of my line with my puppy's behaviors, and need a good pep talk...



## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Hi everyone,

Apologies in advance for this distraught online novella. Please skip to the end part if you'd rather not read a million paragraph introduction. 

I've posted here before about my now 4.5-month-old puppy, Goose (whom we got at 10-weeks-old), and some aggression tendencies he was showing I was concerned about. 

An update on our problems right now: 

1) Occasional situational aggression towards people: Goose used to have handling issues and would protest bite and snarl when he didn't feel like being handled or restrained. After consistent desensitization training (of giving Goose treats every time we handled him/picked him up), he has improved very significantly. He only relapses when he's very worked up (usually in the presence of another dog). 

2) Dog-dog play aggression: Recently, he started showing play aggression with other dogs when playing with them off-leash. He LOVES other dogs and wags his tail like crazy, and is great for the first minute or so. They'll start playing, with the usual rough play that puppies do, but at a certain point (and this happens in a millisecond), Goose crosses some internal threshold and loses control. He starts snarling, shrieking, and biting the other dog, and we have to pry his mouth off of their muzzles to separate him. Per our trainer's advice, we have been working on removing him *before* this happens, so just letting him play for a minute, then removing and treating him, and then letting him go back to play, etc. But it happens so frequently now and in such a split second, that it's far too difficult for us to manage properly. He's fine and loves meeting other dogs briefly on the sidewalk on leash, but for actual play, he has no ability to disengage, de-escalate, or properly read other dogs' signals. This happens no matter how well-socialized the other dogs are (and forget about the dog park!) He actually seems worse with puppies, since they aren't as likely to walk away during rough play. 

3) Resource guarding: When he was ~12 weeks old, Goose growled when I came close to him as he was eating a salmon skin rawhide. Since then, he's growled 2-3 more times (over very high-value chewies and marrow bones). He has only ever growled, because we never try taking the item away from him. We've been practicing a ton of resource guarding protocol (from Mine! and other trainers who teach "trade/exchange" to show the dog that an approaching human only means good things), and we think he's improving. Hard to say at this point though, because we avoid giving him things we know are above guarding threshold lest he "rehearse" the guarding behaviors. 

While his guarding with people is "mild" for now, he is a FIERCE resource guarder with other dogs. Over toys, bully sticks, anything. Beyond that, he LOVES stealing from other dogs. To the point where he will grab a stick in another dog's mouth until it breaks in half, will chew his half for two seconds, then insist on going after the half that's in the other dog's mouth. And anything remotely valuable, his aggression reaction is immediate and intense. So we're not giving him anything valuable to play with with other dogs, including toys, which is a sad state of affairs. We're also going to do some counterconditioning work that Karen Pryor has published on dog-dog resource guarding with my boyfriend's family's vizsla. 

---

Those are our major issues right now, and he's great otherwise for the most part. What's confusing is that even from a young age, his impulse control is better than any puppy's I've ever seen. We can have him in a down-stay and throw kibble and chicken pieces at his feet, and he will look at us and wait until we say "OK". We play other impulse control games with him as well, but the practice does not seem to generalize to his aggression/overstimulation issues with dogs, humans, or his resource guarding. 

I'd heard from some fellow dog owners that a really good doggy daycare did wonders for their dog-aggressive/unsocialized dogs, so with great hope, I applied to a local one with great reviews. Maybe I was just not well-versed enough to manage his play with other dogs, and that was the problem. Stupid, wishful thinking. The daycare did a behavioral assessment (introducing him to the other dogs, and the staff handlers). He failed the test. Apparently he started humping the other dogs, and when staff tried to remove him from the situation, he snarled and snapped at them. This happened multiple times. 

---

While that was a very long and detailed vent about Goose's behavioral issues, I do think we're addressing them in an educated manner; we've been working with a private positive reinforcement trainer as well as going to a group puppy class with a teacher who trained under Jean Donaldson. I've also been reading all recommended resources: Mine! and The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson, The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell, and now the huge textbook called Aggression in Dogs: Practical Management/Prevention & Behavior Modification by Brenda Aloff. 

*That being said, I'm not looking for advice on those per se as much as I am for support and success stories you've had. I feel like I am mentally and emotionally at the end of my rope.* All I do now is read dog behavior/training books, scour online dog forums (though this is by far the best one in terms of quality of advice), train, train, train, and obsess over Goose's issues. The most stressful part for me, I think, is that his aggression issues (while not yet severe), are things I *know* you have to diligently address ASAP during puppyhood, and that they're much harder to train against once he's matured into an adult. There is such a sense of urgency that I spend all my time reading, training, and reaching out to trainers asking questions--anything that might help us address Goose's problems. I am so fearful that either I will fail to do so--or worse, that he's "wired" this way and couldn't be helped anyway--and that I will end up with a dog who's dog-aggressive, resource guards, and whom I cannot trust around other people or my future children. It's to the point where anytime he has a slip-up that involves aggression, I get irrationally upset. It puts me into tears, and I feel like I'm back at square 1. (Don't worry--I deal with any actual situation with Goose calmly as I know that's important. It's mostly after I get home and process what happened that I break down.) The recent "rejection" from daycare threw me into a meltdown, especially because I thought we had mostly resolved his handling aggression with humans. I suppose all of that is a work in progress that never ends. :crying: 

I'm hoping that with continued consistent training, neutering (maybe that'll take the edge off of the dog-dog aggression), and time/maturity, that he will grow into a finely behaved dog, and that all this excessive worrying/anxiety will be unfounded. I know I had certain expectations of what my dog would be like going into this, and that definitely contributes to the perpetual disappointment I feel. I'm working on that, too. *But for now, I'd love any words of wisdom you might have, or even better, a similar story that turned out well for you in the end.*

Thank you so much for reading this, if you even got this far!


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## Wolfeye (Sep 15, 2015)

Well, every dog is different, and I've always felt that sometimes it's better to adapt than to resist. You might want to consider a muzzle. Yes, it's unusual for a golden to need muzzling, but those aren't YOUR golden. Is he broken? Maybe. And if he is, he will either be "your" problem or somebody else's, right? Maybe, on that account too. If you do have to give him up, there are places where his nature might not be a big issue. I can see him living out a perfectly happy life on a farm where he has little contact with other dogs.

Ultimately you are 100% right. This is probably a work in progress. The tale of you and Goose can take many different paths. It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose. That's not a failure, that's life. In your case I simply can not advise. I hope, I long for you and Goose to work it out, but if he's bringing you more pain and anguish than joy... but I hope not. I can tell you love him and despite all the pain and heartache you want this to work out. I hope it does!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Firstly I want to say 'Thank you' for your commitment to Goose and seeking out the professional help you need to work with him. Changing behavior is a process, it takes a lot of time , reward and repetition, and it sounds to me that you may be expecting too much too soon. I have a dog and people reactive dog who came to me at about a year old, so I know exactly where you are 'coming from', with time, repetition, reward, the improvements seemed to happen so very slowly, but with the right kind of help he has improved immensely over time. 
Consider since he does not do well with other dogs, (at this time) does he need to be interacting with strange dogs where he is likely to be 'practicing' the unwanted behaviors? Does he have a dog friend or two, that he interacts well with, if so, would it be possible to arrange play dates, so that he can learn to play appropriately? Perhaps even take a break from a exposure to other dogs, stay at home, play in the house and yard, relieve the stress load that is weighing on both of you? 
Sounds like he has wonderful impulse control, spend extra time working on building and reinforcing that with him. Consider working on 'confidence building' exercises, dogs that don't 'do well' with other dogs often lack confidence in themselves, and can develop a 'routine' of 'I'll 'get' them, before they can 'get me'. Ways to build confidence include rehearsing and rewarding known skills, teaching new skills - eye contact, touch (nose to the palm of your hand) and easy tricks - shake a paw, weave between your legs, low level agility jumps, hoops, tunnels, fun and easy things to do. 
Consider looking into the 'shaping' games '101 things to do with a box', builds confidence, helps the dog learn to think, and provide mental exercise and tires them out!

Mostly, I just want to say, I think you are doing wonderfully with him, he is still very much a pup, and there is definitely HOPE!! try to pick out something or many things each day that he is getting 'right', take the time to celebrate the 'small stuff'!! He may not have done so well with 'this', but he did great with 'that'! Be good to yourself, believe in yourself, find a way to 'reward' yourself, take a break, once in a while. 

Consider trying out some calming remedies, Rescue Remedy is safe, 'calming collars' or sprays can be useful in helping a dog learn to relax, enabling them to better maintain self control in stimulating or stressful situations.


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Wolfeye said:


> Well, every dog is different, and I've always felt that sometimes it's better to adapt than to resist. You might want to consider a muzzle. Yes, it's unusual for a golden to need muzzling, but those aren't YOUR golden. Is he broken? Maybe. And if he is, he will either be "your" problem or somebody else's, right? Maybe, on that account too. If you do have to give him up, there are places where his nature might not be a big issue. I can see him living out a perfectly happy life on a farm where he has little contact with other dogs.
> 
> Ultimately you are 100% right. This is probably a work in progress. The tale of you and Goose can take many different paths. It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose. That's not a failure, that's life. In your case I simply can not advise. I hope, I long for you and Goose to work it out, but if he's bringing you more pain and anguish than joy... but I hope not. I can tell you love him and despite all the pain and heartache you want this to work out. I hope it does!


Thanks for your well wishes! I'm really hoping it doesn't come to having to rehome him! That is my worst case scenario that I'm desperately trying to avoid, preemptively, by tackling his behaviors while he's still young. 



Charliethree said:


> Firstly I want to say 'Thank you' for your commitment to Goose and seeking out the professional help you need to work with him. Changing behavior is a process, it takes a lot of time , reward and repetition, and it sounds to me that you may be expecting too much too soon. I have a dog and people reactive dog who came to me at about a year old, so I know exactly where you are 'coming from', with time, repetition, reward, the improvements seemed to happen so very slowly, but with the right kind of help he has improved immensely over time.
> Consider since he does not do well with other dogs, (at this time) does he need to be interacting with strange dogs where he is likely to be 'practicing' the unwanted behaviors? Does he have a dog friend or two, that he interacts well with, if so, would it be possible to arrange play dates, so that he can learn to play appropriately? Perhaps even take a break from a exposure to other dogs, stay at home, play in the house and yard, relieve the stress load that is weighing on both of you?
> Sounds like he has wonderful impulse control, spend extra time working on building and reinforcing that with him. Consider working on 'confidence building' exercises, dogs that don't 'do well' with other dogs often lack confidence in themselves, and can develop a 'routine' of 'I'll 'get' them, before they can 'get me'. Ways to build confidence include rehearsing and rewarding known skills, teaching new skills - eye contact, touch (nose to the palm of your hand) and easy tricks - shake a paw, weave between your legs, low level agility jumps, hoops, tunnels, fun and easy things to do.
> Consider looking into the 'shaping' games '101 things to do with a box', builds confidence, helps the dog learn to think, and provide mental exercise and tires them out!
> ...


Thank you so much for your kind words! You're absolutely right--I need to focus and appreciate all the amazing things he is and does every day. Which is a lot! He's so smart, a quick learner, occasionally cuddly, and is overall very mellow for a puppy. 

He does indeed have some dog friends (mostly puppies) whom he used to play so well with, but the play sessions now often end in the aggression I described earlier. Unfortunately we live in NYC, so there's almost no off-leash areas (or yards) except for dog parks, which are a nightmare. I so wish we had a yard to run him around and have him play with other mannered dogs in less enclosed spaces!

Those shaping games are a great idea. I'm going to look into those box games! I have indeed noticed when he's worked up, or being non-responsive, that small things like having him "touch" my palm get him back focused on me, and it's a positive experience for him which is very easily accomplished. 

I put a calming collar on him this week, actually, and it seems to not have affected his behavior in the slightest. In fact, his separation anxiety barking (which isn't bad--only when we're in the house and he's crated) has ramped up this week. Go figure! 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience with your dog. Nothing makes me feel better than the hope that everything will turn out just fine, and I'll someday look back at this time and recognize I was being a crazy tiger mom!


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## Rambo's mom (Apr 30, 2016)

I can't offer advice but I can tell you my story. 
Even though it isn't about a Golden, it is about things getting better. 
I lost my big beagle last year after 13 years. He was my heart, and best buddy. The reason I wanted a Golden was because I wanted a dog who would love all members of my family. My beagle, Mr. Frodo was a one person dog. It's been awhile, but I can remember the first year, and worrying every night about having to give him up. He showed a lot of the same behavior as Goose. He could turn on a dime. The growling, and biting was not normal. On top of that, he loved to be petted, but I had to watch his body language, because he would tense up and begin to snarl. He did a lot of air snapping. 
The trips to the vet were the worse. I would have to muzzle him. No fun. I had the most understanding vet, so that helped. Towards the last few years, it was even a struggle to get the muzzle on. I've shredded many tears over him. 
After the first year or two he calmed down. I still had to watch out for the signs of his aggression, but as each year went by, it got better. I just had to make consessions, along the way. For example, when he was on his crate or in his bed, I couldn't let people get near him. He loved people, but just couldn't show it. I had to be careful when our oldest daughter brought her Boxers over. 
I didn't have small children around, so that wasn't a factor. He was great on walks. He was smart, and like Goose,he took to commands very well. He was just very body protective. He became my shadow those last several years, and even slept under the covers by me in the winter. Those first couple of years were tough. I didn't seek help back then. I'm much quicker about that now. 
I could write more, but I hope you get my drift. I just wanted to let you know that in my case things turned out ok. The difficult dog I had as a puppy , matured into a wonderful companion. I stopped wishing for what I didn't have, and focused on the good things. The rewards far out weighed the troubles. 

Goose is bringing this all home to me. I admire all you have done. He is a very lucky boy. I wish for you the best. 
Oh, I almost forget, and I know this will sound weird. When Frodo would start to tense up I found he calmed down when I gave a big yawn. We were a strange team. 
Hang in there. I wish it was easier for you.


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## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

I also have a dog who came to me as a rescue "with issues". There is not much I can add to Charliethree's excellent advice except to suggest that you may wish to try what I have used with my dog, Jack. Over the summer I stumbled across a product called Good Behavior Calming Ointment by Sentry. My dog, Jack, is terrified of loud noises. He also suffers serious anxiety when in a car, or in strange situations, etc. I was extremely skeptical that this ointment would work (as I had already tried similar products and calming collars) and extremely surprised when it did. I cannot tell you that it was solely the result of the ointment but Jack has been with us for nearly 3 years now and, recently, for the first time ever, he has become relaxed and comfortable enough in his environment to begin to play. This may not sound like a big deal to someone with a "normal" dog but for Jack this is HUGE progress. I would also like to add that I think you are approaching this wonderfully and I would like to thank you for not giving up on Goose. He is lucky to have you.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Take some time to learn about dog body language, the book 'On Talking Terms with Dogs' by Turid Rugaas is a good, easy to read, place to start. Understanding what his body language is 'telling' you can help to avoid putting him in situations that he is not comfortable with. 

Anxiety builds in dogs, just like it does with us, they need time (24-48 hrs.) to recover and 'just chill' (play- do fun stuff) especially after an 'event' where they have become over aroused or over excited and lost 'control'. (just like us!) Calming collars/remedies work over time, have a 'cummulative' effect, not likely to result in a huge change in behavior, but can simply help them to be able to learn to relax. 

Hang in there!! You are on the right track!!


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Rambo's mom said:


> I can't offer advice but I can tell you my story.
> Even though it isn't about a Golden, it is about things getting better.
> I lost my big beagle last year after 13 years. He was my heart, and best buddy. The reason I wanted a Golden was because I wanted a dog who would love all members of my family. My beagle, Mr. Frodo was a one person dog. It's been awhile, but I can remember the first year, and worrying every night about having to give him up. He showed a lot of the same behavior as Goose. He could turn on a dime. The growling, and biting was not normal. On top of that, he loved to be petted, but I had to watch his body language, because he would tense up and begin to snarl. He did a lot of air snapping.
> The trips to the vet were the worse. I would have to muzzle him. No fun. I had the most understanding vet, so that helped. Towards the last few years, it was even a struggle to get the muzzle on. I've shredded many tears over him.
> ...


That's such a heartwarming story.  Plus, Frodo is an amazing name. My cousin had a rescue beagle, Brandy, who was a bit unpredictable and a one-person dog like that as well. Smartest dog I've ever met, though. It's so lovely to hear about your relationship maturing and how wonderful a companion he became. I think that at a certain point (past puppy stage), I will accept that Goose has certain hang-ups that I can't change, and just prevent situations in which they occur. For now I'm trying behavior modification for everything, but it is just so, so exhausting and overwhelming! Looking forward to accepting the dog I have, the way he is. 

Also, I've actually heard that not making direct eye contact with your dog and yawning really calms down a tense dog! I guess they understand certain calming signals in humans as well. 




G-bear said:


> I also have a dog who came to me as a rescue "with issues". There is not much I can add to Charliethree's excellent advice except to suggest that you may wish to try what I have used with my dog, Jack. Over the summer I stumbled across a product called Good Behavior Calming Ointment by Sentry. My dog, Jack, is terrified of loud noises. He also suffers serious anxiety when in a car, or in strange situations, etc. I was extremely skeptical that this ointment would work (as I had already tried similar products and calming collars) and extremely surprised when it did. I cannot tell you that it was solely the result of the ointment but Jack has been with us for nearly 3 years now and, recently, for the first time ever, he has become relaxed and comfortable enough in his environment to begin to play. This may not sound like a big deal to someone with a "normal" dog but for Jack this is HUGE progress. I would also like to add that I think you are approaching this wonderfully and I would like to thank you for not giving up on Goose. He is lucky to have you.


It's so nice of you to call him a lucky dog. Sometimes I think he would've been better off with a less neurotic mommy with lower expectations, but he certainly does get a lot of attention! 

Annnnd, I am buying that ointment that worked for Jack as we speak!!! #impulsebuyingeverythingonamazonformydog


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm so sorry you are going through all of this. My heart goes out to you. I can only imagine what it feels like, and am sure that you are exhausted and stressed out. I would be too. You sound like you are doing an amazing job with Goose and that he is making progress, and you are doing all of the right things. Thats wonderful, and I so admire you for it. But I know it doesn't make it any easier. 

I haven't dealt with a ton of this personally (Piper does like to guard high value items, so she doesn't get some of them). But my good friend Caroline has a lab/rottie mix who is super smart and around 9 months old developed severe leash reactivity, barks and growls at dogs she can't meet on leash, and is intensely overprotective of her owner. She's worked extensively with a behaviorist, and even started using an electric training collar, which my friend hated having to go to but all other methods had failed her. She has been working really hard with her, and she's making a lot of progress. She also does a lot of "managing" her dogs behavior....she doesn't do dog parks (maggie plays too hard...not aggressive, but often way too intense...and sometimes has issues with other dogs), distracts her when other dogs walk by, and has done a lot of desensitization and counter conditioning. Maggie is also quite literally the smartest dog I've ever met. So she's done a lot of high-level skills work with her, to help channel her energy and give her something to do. Many people wouldn't have taken the time or effort, but it has really paid off. It has been incredible to watch her progress (she's my neighbor, so I see her every day). 

If he's not aggressive with other dogs or people overtly on a leash (when not playing), I probably wouldn't use a muzzle personally. But you have to do what you feel comfortable with to keep your dog, yourself, and others safe. I would probably avoid dog parks (which you are doing), but also playing with other dogs off leash if right now he gets too over-excited by it. 

Dogs don't _have_ to play with other dogs to be happy. Sure it would be nice, but its not required. When I was growing up, our Golden retriever didn't have "doggie play dates" or dog friends, and dog parks didn't really exist in our town (we go him when I was seven...so 23 years ago). He was very friendly, and wouldn't have had a problem with it, but it just wasn't really something my family did. He went on walks and played with us. Piper got bit by a dog at the dog park, and my vet said the same thing to me...as well as saying "she only needs you." 

The only advice I have to give is pretty general. Lots and lots of exercise, avoid giving him anything he will guard. Also, when playing with other dogs, its not great to have toys around in the first place, because lots and lots of dogs will guard them. As you probably know, you don't want to do anything to reinforce the guarding...so avoidance is often the best option. Work a LOT on recall and "watch me," it can be very helpful for the times when you need to get your dog out of a situation, or break up play that is getting too intense. 

This might sound corny, but one thing that has helped me is when I'm feeling frustrated I try and think about all the good things my dog does, and the reasons why I love him or her. It can help break the cycle of those negative feelings and worries, and build lots to positive associations of your dog. Dogs can often sense how we are feeling even if we don't show it. 

Keep up the good work you are already doing, and keep us posted on how things are going. We are always here for support and encouragement, or just to listen.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Some dogs do not need to play with other dogs in uncontrolled settings. I think Goose has proven that he is one of those dogs that should not be put into that environment. Stop putting him into group play situations. He is not a dog that needs to play with other dogs. If you continue to try and force him to be in groups of dogs, as he gets older he will get more dangerous for the other dogs, he will eventually really hurt a dog some day. You also don't want him to continue to practice being dog aggressive.

Work on just having him be a dog that you can take, on leash, on walks, into public places, and he can meet, greet calmly, and then walk on past other dogs without issue. Be satisfied with that, and you and Goose will both be happier. 

You have made great progress on the other behaviors that concern you, keep up the good work. It will pay off.


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Piper_the_goldenpuppy said:


> I'm so sorry you are going through all of this. My heart goes out to you. I can only imagine what it feels like, and am sure that you are exhausted and stressed out. I would be too. You sound like you are doing an amazing job with Goose and that he is making progress, and you are doing all of the right things. Thats wonderful, and I so admire you for it. But I know it doesn't make it any easier.
> 
> I haven't dealt with a ton of this personally (Piper does like to guard high value items, so she doesn't get some of them). But my good friend Caroline has a lab/rottie mix who is super smart and around 9 months old developed severe leash reactivity, barks and growls at dogs she can't meet on leash, and is intensely overprotective of her owner. She's worked extensively with a behaviorist, and even started using an electric training collar, which my friend hated having to go to but all other methods had failed her. She has been working really hard with her, and she's making a lot of progress. She also does a lot of "managing" her dogs behavior....she doesn't do dog parks (maggie plays too hard...not aggressive, but often way too intense...and sometimes has issues with other dogs), distracts her when other dogs walk by, and has done a lot of desensitization and counter conditioning. Maggie is also quite literally the smartest dog I've ever met. So she's done a lot of high-level skills work with her, to help channel her energy and give her something to do. Many people wouldn't have taken the time or effort, but it has really paid off. It has been incredible to watch her progress (she's my neighbor, so I see her every day).
> 
> ...


Your post just almost made me cry--thanks so much. Sometimes I feel very alone because of how much I think about and worry about Goose, but the empathy from this community is unbelievably helpful. 

What you said is very interesting, and something I think about a lot--yes, it would be delightful if Goose could play nicely with other dogs, especially since we live in a dog-heavy city where dog parks are the easiest way for them to get out energy. But it's not necessary. And he's fine at home--it's just when I put him in these "testy" situations where he can act out and get aggressive/regress. Half of my friends' dogs growing up were not the friendliest to strangers, and many were dog-aggressive and would resource guard. I feel like we expect much more of our dogs nowadays than we used to. 

So I think while he's a puppy, I'll approach his problem behaviors with modification, and if it doesn't work in the end, we can just prevent/manage. It's not the end of the world. I have to keep telling myself that.  Thank you so much again.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

one thing that might be helpful...since both caroline and I don't do dog parks anymore, and we live in the city in Boston (zero yard)...we have gotten a little creative about exercise. We live right across from the dog park, and if I'm home during the day i will take Piper in off hours when no one else is around. I have also found random open spaces in parks and let her off leash there, far away from other people. You can also get a long lead, keep him on that in a park, and still throw the ball a good ways. He's still on leash, but can run around. A flirt stick--basically an enlarged version of the cat toy on a string--can also burn energy indoors or out.


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## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

Thank you for working so hard with Goose! So many would have long ago given up. IF it ever comes down to needing to place him elsewhere please know you have NOT failed, neither him nor yourself. It's obvious you are doing everything possible. He has no idea how blessed he is that he is with you as a puppy. That said, I'm so sorry you are going through this.


I also wouldn't let him play with other dogs, not all need to have other dogs around to be happy. Let you yourself be his world. I wouldn't have any high value toys, chews or foods allowed anymore. Look for activities for him that you can do inside as well as outside, like nosework, things that will stimulate him in a good way. Do obedience with him. Google Tyler Muto on you tube. He works with working dogs like shepherds and Malinois, but little Goose appears to think he's a working dog in temperament in some ways. Tyler uses positive reinforcement and shows how to do competitive heeling, etc.. But he teaches using a 'target' which you can do in the house, teaches 'place' which I think would help you. Basically, stimulate him intellectually. 


And do keep us updated!


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## Pilgrim123 (Jul 26, 2014)

Thank you for caring so much about Goose. It sounds like he is with the right person in the right place to become a wonderful dog eventually.
I cannot offer many suggestions - I prefer to adopt older dogs rather than puppies. With the older adoptees, I always expect the worst and am absolutely thrilled with any good behavior. However, if any of my dogs reacted in that manner, I would stop the "playtimes" for a while, until he got a little older and a little wiser. It must be awfully scary for Goose, when he is so unable to control his reactions. Good luck with his further education.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Having a dog with a snarky disposition can be a challenge and sounds like you are giving it your all. 

I had a client with an Akita and it's just in their nature to not be pet friendly, extremely high prey drive and wanted to pounce on anything that moved. She was a wonderful dog just didn't play well with others but finding a trainer to work with the prey drive made all the difference. She had to wear a muzzle but excelled in agility, lure course and search/rescue training. The training elevated her confidence and gave her a much needed job. 

Hang in there, sounds like you are doing a great job and starting at an early age is great!


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Some dogs cannot handle the stress of playing with other dogs it can be a confidence issue, like with Boots he only really felt safe when he was younger playing with Sparkles. So even though he often showed the want to play we only let him play in safe places our house our yard etc with Sparkles. By avoided potential confrontations it eased his stress. When he hit about 4 he suddenly relaxed more and was willing to play with dogs he chose. No one too forward and we had to carefully read his body language. Most people tried to tell me it was alpha behavior careful research and a dog behaviorist showed us it was fear. We did lots of confidence building and training by the time he was 5 you would never have guessed what we started with.


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Piper_the_goldenpuppy said:


> one thing that might be helpful...since both caroline and I don't do dog parks anymore, and we live in the city in Boston (zero yard)...we have gotten a little creative about exercise. We live right across from the dog park, and if I'm home during the day i will take Piper in off hours when no one else is around. I have also found random open spaces in parks and let her off leash there, far away from other people. You can also get a long lead, keep him on that in a park, and still throw the ball a good ways. He's still on leash, but can run around. A flirt stick--basically an enlarged version of the cat toy on a string--can also burn energy indoors or out.


Yes, that's exactly what we're doing! We have a 30-foot lead for the park, and I was actually just looking into flirt poles. He does have toy ADD and loses interest in every toy after 30 minutes. Does it maintain interest in your opinion? 



Aislinn said:


> Thank you for working so hard with Goose! So many would have long ago given up. IF it ever comes down to needing to place him elsewhere please know you have NOT failed, neither him nor yourself. It's obvious you are doing everything possible. He has no idea how blessed he is that he is with you as a puppy. That said, I'm so sorry you are going through this.
> 
> 
> I also wouldn't let him play with other dogs, not all need to have other dogs around to be happy. Let you yourself be his world. I wouldn't have any high value toys, chews or foods allowed anymore. Look for activities for him that you can do inside as well as outside, like nosework, things that will stimulate him in a good way. Do obedience with him. Google Tyler Muto on you tube. He works with working dogs like shepherds and Malinois, but little Goose appears to think he's a working dog in temperament in some ways. Tyler uses positive reinforcement and shows how to do competitive heeling, etc.. But he teaches using a 'target' which you can do in the house, teaches 'place' which I think would help you. Basically, stimulate him intellectually.
> ...


Thank you so much for your words of support, Aislinn! My private trainer actually said the same thing--that Goose is tough as a pet, but extremely smart and would be great for agility, etc. I'll google Tyler Muto. While it might stimulate him mentally to do obedience, nose work, etc., do you think it would help address his aggression issues like resource guarding??



Altairss said:


> Some dogs cannot handle the stress of playing with other dogs it can be a confidence issue, like with Boots he only really felt safe when he was younger playing with Sparkles. So even though he often showed the want to play we only let him play in safe places our house our yard etc with Sparkles. By avoided potential confrontations it eased his stress. When he hit about 4 he suddenly relaxed more and was willing to play with dogs he chose. No one too forward and we had to carefully read his body language. Most people tried to tell me it was alpha behavior careful research and a dog behaviorist showed us it was fear. We did lots of confidence building and training by the time he was 5 you would never have guessed what we started with.


Interesting--good to know! I think there's definitely hope for him to be able to play with other dogs well once he gets older and doesn't get overstimulated so easily. Until then, perhaps we'll avoid overwhelming situations like that. 

And ugh, I hate the "alpha" theories! So many people call Goose "dominant" (including his breeder, whom I reached out to), and that I need to use a stronger hand. I don't think that works for him at all, and just increases his defensiveness.


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## LittleRedDawg (Oct 5, 2011)

Where in the US are you located?


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

LittleRedDawg said:


> Where in the US are you located?


We're in NYC! One of the toughest places to raise a pup...:|


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Keep in mind Goose is still very much a puppy at 4 1/2 months old, still trying to figure out where he 'fits' in this world, and hasn't had a lot of time to learn what he needs to know. A dogs education spans a lifetime of learning, they don't need us to tell them, they got it 'wrong'- they need us to teach them how to get it 'right' and they are more than willing to learn all that we want them to know.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

Goose's Mom said:


> Yes, that's exactly what we're doing! We have a 30-foot lead for the park, and I was actually just looking into flirt poles. He does have toy ADD and loses interest in every toy after 30 minutes. Does it maintain interest in your opinion?
> 
> And ugh, I hate the "alpha" theories! So many people call Goose "dominant" (including his breeder, whom I reached out to), and that I need to use a stronger hand. I don't think that works for him at all, and just increases his defensiveness.


Loses interest in 3 minutes or 30 minutes? Because 30 minutes is awesome for a dog his age! You can change it up by bringing different toys to the park, and alternating between them. Give him a 5-10 minute break to sniff around and then they often get more interested again! Treats also help reinforce fetching, and they might stay interested for that. 

I hate alpha theories too. Sometime dogs are more likely to question authority, but if your dog obeys you they consider you to be their leader. Often these types of issues are from a lack of confidence or insecurity. It sounds like you are getting good results with positive reinforcement work, if he's responding to it you don't need a "stronger hand." That often can worsen things like human-dog guarding.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I understand that you aren't looking for advice, you only want to hear encouragement and happy endings. When you first posted here about problems with Goose, I suggested you find an actual certified veterinary behaviorist. Especially if you were still having problems in a couple months. 

You are very fortunate to live in an area of the country where you have several choices of people with extensive training to work with you and Goose. I can't emphasize to you enough that you need more help that most trainers can give. 

When you tell us that Goose has excellent impulse control in many situations, (my dog did too, my 4 year old daughter could put him in a down/stay, fix his food bowl and put it down next to him and he wouldn't move to eat it until she released him) it is a clear indication that he has a lot more going on with him than the average dog person is familiar with. He may end up being a candidate for medication to help with anxiety or other chemical issues as he matures. You won't know if you aren't working with someone who is more experienced with these kind of issues though and has medical and specialized training. A Certified Veterinary Behaviorist is really the way to go with Goose. There are a few in NYC but also in Philly and CT who sound like they may be more dog-centered.  I really hope you will consider this. If you aren't happy living like this, can you imagine how miserable Goose must feel?

http://www.dacvb.org/wp-content/uploads/ACVB-brochure.pdf

k9behavGen

Reisner Veterinary Behavior and Consulting

Veterinary Behavior in Eastern PA

Ellen M. Lindell, V.M.D. - Veterinary Behavior Consultations, P.C.- Veterinary Behavior
Veterinary Behavior Consultations of NYC and Colorado - Home
Animal Emergency & Referral Associates
Find out about LIVS Behavior Department


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Charliethree said:


> Keep in mind Goose is still very much a puppy at 4 1/2 months old, still trying to figure out where he 'fits' in this world, and hasn't had a lot of time to learn what he needs to know. A dogs education spans a lifetime of learning, they don't need us to tell them, they got it 'wrong'- they need us to teach them how to get it 'right' and they are more than willing to learn all that we want them to know.


True, I forget sometimes that he's still a very young puppy. Probably because the last two months have felt like years, ha!  

We only tell Goose when he gets it right; we take a 100% positive reinforcement approach in our training. I constantly have kibble and treats in my pockets along with clickers, and probably reward him at least 300 times a day, either for specific behaviors I ask for, or for just acting in a manner we like (e.g., hanging out calmly, greeting dogs on-leash nicely, etc.) The only "correction" we ever use is an occasional non-reinforcement marker ("NRM") which is just a cue like "too bad" and means he won't get the reward. 

I recognize education is certainly lifelong, and that we'll have to continue to keep all training up throughout his lifetime. The anxiety/sense of urgency I have is more to do with making as big of an impact as possible while he's most "malleable" so to say, and to not miss any opportunities within developmental windows. 



nolefan said:


> I understand that you aren't looking for advice, you only want to hear encouragement and happy endings. When you first posted here about problems with Goose, I suggested you find an actual certified veterinary behaviorist. Especially if you were still having problems in a couple months.
> 
> You are very fortunate to live in an area of the country where you have several choices of people with extensive training to work with you and Goose. I can't emphasize to you enough that you need more help that most trainers can give.
> 
> ...


Hi Nolefan, 

Thanks for the references--super nice of you to look them up on my behalf. I did indeed look into veterinary behaviorists after my first post and reached out to some in and out of state, but the cost is quite prohibitive at the moment--especially since my boyfriend just had to have unexpected surgery done. Our current game plan is to continue working hard with Goose every day, and avoid any situations that exceed his threshold to get aggressive and/or guard. I really do dedicate most of my time to making sure that Goose is happy, and do realistic training work with him every day to help address the issues. He has been improving in the areas we're counterconditioning him in, which gives me hope; I think it was just initially hard for me to accept that it would be a constant work in progress throughout the rest of his life rather than issues I could "solve", no matter how hard we worked. 

Our private trainer is coming with us to the dog park next week to analyze his behaviors and help us figure out what's going on and the appropriate plan of action to combat the play escalation with other dogs. I'm curious to see what she says about his seemingly "jagged" behavior profile (of having excellent impulse controls in some situations, but not others). If she thinks it's abnormal, we will most likely need to look into medication.
Either way, if we don't make significant progress in the areas I listed in the next couple of months, we'll definitely revisit the possibility of visiting a behaviorist and consider pharmacological intervention if appropriate. 

Thanks again!


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Oh, and here are some pictures of my little Goosiepants! He's a very gangly adolescent right now


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## Mom2mande (Oct 26, 2016)

I am reading this thread like I could have written it. We have a golden doodle that is 4.5 months old and starting to see an aggression side of him that I am scared of. The first time he had just gotten a new bone and brought it out to the living room to chew on it. He sat down next to my 6 year old on the floor and was happily chomping away. My son got up and without any warning Remi went into full attack mode and tried to bite him. We all saw it happen. My son did not lean into Remi or anything, he must have just felt threatened. I was instantly in tears, my son was bawling because it scared him to death. Checking him over he didn't have any bite marks. Something similar happened with my teen daughter and food wasn't involved. Then last night my husband was brushing him (which I do numerous times a week so it's nothing new) and Remi was not liking it and all of a sudden he did his vicious growl and bit my husbands hand and drew a tiny bit of blood. My husband justified saying maybe he had a snarl and he hurt him, true but what if he accidently gets stepped on, that's not a reason to bite. We won't get into a lot of the thing with other dogs
He was around plenty of dogs, playdates from the get go and now is a grouch and tries to play aggressive with all the dogs (doing after their ears, wrestling vs.just running around having fun) You are not alone. It makes me sick worrying about Remi's future with our family if we can't get these things dealt with and worked out. He has his class on Tuesday so I am going to talk with the teacher about setting up some private sessions in our house to go over these things. I feel for you. We should be working on commands, and not have to worry about our PUPPIES biting someone with a vicious intent.


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## Goose's Mom (Aug 30, 2016)

Mom2mande said:


> I am reading this thread like I could have written it. We have a golden doodle that is 4.5 months old and starting to see an aggression side of him that I am scared of. The first time he had just gotten a new bone and brought it out to the living room to chew on it. He sat down next to my 6 year old on the floor and was happily chomping away. My son got up and without any warning Remi went into full attack mode and tried to bite him. We all saw it happen. My son did not lean into Remi or anything, he must have just felt threatened. I was instantly in tears, my son was bawling because it scared him to death. Checking him over he didn't have any bite marks. Something similar happened with my teen daughter and food wasn't involved. Then last night my husband was brushing him (which I do numerous times a week so it's nothing new) and Remi was not liking it and all of a sudden he did his vicious growl and bit my husbands hand and drew a tiny bit of blood. My husband justified saying maybe he had a snarl and he hurt him, true but what if he accidently gets stepped on, that's not a reason to bite. We won't get into a lot of the thing with other dogs
> He was around plenty of dogs, playdates from the get go and now is a grouch and tries to play aggressive with all the dogs (doing after their ears, wrestling vs.just running around having fun) You are not alone. It makes me sick worrying about Remi's future with our family if we can't get these things dealt with and worked out. He has his class on Tuesday so I am going to talk with the teacher about setting up some private sessions in our house to go over these things. I feel for you. We should be working on commands, and not have to worry about our PUPPIES biting someone with a vicious intent.



Hi Mom2mande--I just wanted to say that I am so sorry you're going through this too. There's nothing as anxiety-inducing as thinking your puppy might grow up into an aggressive dog. The fact that you have children makes that 100x more dire of a situation than mine, so I really feel for you.

If it makes you feel better, the work we've been doing with Goose, while time-consuming, has led to significant improvements. 

For *resource guarding*, which it seems Remi might do (given the bone situation), I highly recommend you use the protocol in "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson. I use an adapted/hybrid version of it to incorporate what my trainer recommended: 

1) Make a hierarchy of items (chewies, toys, whatever) that Remi considers high-value. Start with something you know he really likes, but has never guarded (i.e., hasn't growled or gotten tense when you approached him). 

2) Sit down with Remi and hold an item in your hand, and let him chew on it while you hold it. Every few seconds, I say "give", and click when he releases it, and then dip it in peanut butter and give it back. After enough repetitions, he knows "give" and your taking the item away means that he gets something awesome in return. 

3) After you've done that for a while (i.e., he's visibly excited every time you take the item away), let him take the item back to wherever he wants to chew it (probably far away from you). I'd recommend a crate so he can't run away; you should not chase him. Take a treat that is insanely high-value (I literally have used smelly fish skins and feta cheese covered in peanut butter). Approach him and say "give" (but don't require him to actually give you anything), click, and then offer him the treat. Then walk away, and repeat many times. 

The most important thing to remember is that you should NOT push him over the threshold where you think he might start to guard his item. You do not want him to rehearse the behavior, so take it slow. It's incredibly tedious and time-consuming, but I do promise that it produces results if you do it consistently. Now, whenever Goose has a pig ear he's chewing in his crate, he'll get up expectantly when I approach because he knows I have something good for him. 

Remi seems to have *handling issues* as well; I would prioritize desensitizing him to handling by your family by treating him every time you handle him. It can be a one-second interaction: touch him and treat. As you get farther through the training, you can start doing annoying things to him (picking him up, brushing him, etc) and treating him with good stuff. This was where I saw the most rapid progress with Goose. He has not snapped at humans (except for a dog daycare incident) in many weeks. 

In regards to *aggression with other dogs*, I think that's a much tougher issue to tackle since you're not in control of the other "player". What I've done is just stopped taking him to play off-leash with dogs, and cut off any interaction with a dog once it starts getting _remotely_ rowdy. It's hard to resort to this type of prevention when you have a puppy that you want to play well with other pups, but it really reduces stress (the dog's and yours) if you just avoid the situation and take it slow. I'd engage your trainer on the best way to handle that as well, because it's also important to make sure you give him enough opportunity to socialize with other dogs while he's a puppy. 

I hope the fact that we've made great strides with Goose makes you feel better. Recently, for the first time, I have confidence that Goose is going to be a great adult dog. He might have a couple of hang-ups we can't "fix" (e.g., resource guarding/play aggression against other dogs) that I never imagined would be part of the deal, but those are specific situations which are easy to avoid. I have shed so many tears after incidents of aggression with him, so I know how you feel. I had prepared myself for the work a puppy takes, and anticipated house-training woes, etc., but aggression of any kind was something I had never even considered dealing with. So spending so much time worrying and training against that was difficult, because like you said, shouldn't we just be training fun, "normal" stuff like "sit"?! Especially since we had gone far out of our way to make sure we socialized him to EVERYTHING on any checklist we could find, never harshly punished him, and thought we did everything "right". But, the more I focused on just doing the counterconditioning training and less on "whyyyy do I have to do this, whyyyy did I pick the wrong dog", the more significant of progress I make, and the happier everyone is. To be fair, I am a novice dog owner, so take my advice with a grain of salt...but I know that success stories were (and are) really key for me to keep a positive attitude. 

Keep us/me posted on Remi, and please reach out if anything comes up or if you need a digital hug


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