# Question for the trainers here



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

For real life scenarios, I usually just stop with my hands down (with or without a treat or toy). I tend to just stop and look at them - neither a hard nor a soft look just an unemotional look with a straight face. When they are young and still learning self control, or when they are older but over the top, I break off what we were working on and switch to either Zen or IYC games as a review and then retry what I originally was working on - perhaps with less stimulation or distraction if I think that is what they need.

My dogs know Zen & IYC so tend to stop the jumping pretty quickly


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> In agility if she gets frustrated she will start barking and jumping and biting. When she gets in this mindset it's hard to regain her attention during the same run.


With my Jacks back when he was a young guy.... if he did any of this, it was because he was over-excited. He never really barked in class, but definitely jumping and biting. I'm not kidding about the bruises I had nonstop for his first two years...  

How I stopped it was using calming techniques on him and training him to "work". I also knew what would "set him off" or what was too much excitement/play to push him over the edge. He learned control this way.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I would tell the dog to sit or down and correct them if they didn't reply to my command ASAP. It doesn't need to be any more difficult than that. And if the dog won't sit or down on command, you need basic obedience lessons, not agility and rally.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks for the ideas.
When it happens and I tell her to sit, she will sit or down but will keep barking, she can do her basic obedience but is too over stimulated to do anything else. If we stop all together and let other dogs run, when we come back out she is a new dog again, until she gets frustrated. I think it stems from me not giving her clear instructions on what to do/where to go. I just wish she would show frustration in another manner. I am currently taking the handling360 course so I am getting better at giving her direction. In the back yard doing the H360 work she doesn't do this, but I think that is because that is a much more controlled and scripted activity. I still do Sunday drills with my local club and that is where she is getting out of control. I'm just not sure what to do in the moment when it happens, or maybe prevent it all together. When it happens is usually after I screwed up and crowd a jump or do a cross too close in front of her and she is literally on top of me.
For the pushy behavior of trying to get what I have, I really do think it's her being pushy. If I have a tug toy, she won't do it, but she also doesn't get the same level of drive for what I want her to do with a toy. If it's a lotus ball with high value treats inside, she tries to just get it from me. I think here is where I should just stop what I'm doing and work just on doggie zen/IYC?


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Oh, I meant to give a rally example. We are still very new to rally so I often have treats on me, if I have treats in hand she will jump up to get them while we are working. Again, should I just stop right here and work doggie zen/IYC? In the back yard or at the club, I'm at the point that I don't need treats to keep her engaged. But if I go somewhere new (park) I need the treats to keep her focus.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Here is a video of what I'm talking about. It happens in the beginning and again during the spiral. It is much less intense than in agility, I think because it is less stimulating than agility.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Here's a video from some agility stuff I was doing last winter, you can see the behavior I am talking about at about the 1 minute mark. Running all out on a course it is amplified that much more.
On the bright side, I can definitely see that we've improved a lot though, she almost never knocks bars anymore!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jennifer1 said:


> Here is a video of what I'm talking about. It happens in the beginning and again during the spiral. It is much less intense than in agility, I think because it is less stimulating than agility.
> https://youtu.be/3npzcPW9REA


Jennifer - I see a really nice dog to work with. She appears to be really food driven and she's jumping up at your hand where the treats are coming from. If you lower your hand to you left hip and anchor it there, and you can hold the leash in the same hand, it will help cut back on the jumping and will help anchor her in heel position. Over all she looks like you have a fun dog to play with - she should do good in obedience. 

If you try regular obedience - you may like it a lot better than rally. The problem with rally is I swear it is a little dog sport. The little dogs have a lot more space from station to station. For the bigger dogs it's a lot of stop and go action and there's not enough room to really build some heeling rhythm, especially for a young dog who is a ball of energy. 

I wasn't sure if the vocalizations were coming from her - so can't comment on that. The jumping though it was driving for the food. Something you can absolutely use. Just get your hand down and work towards getting treats into your left pants pocket and out of hand. Obviously, don't ever use your right hand for giving her treats because she's really driving for the food hand.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Thank you.
One of the instructors had me have my arm at a right angle like that, although her dogs are taller than Kenzie so that is where their head is. I will try lower.
She really is a fun dog to work with, but we also have our challenges. I've always said she would be an absolutely amazing dog with a better handler!
In the rally video, that is not her barking. One of the instructors brought their 4mo old lab to get them used to being crated when stuff is going on. That was the puppy, but the puppy and Kenzie sound exactly alike!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I didn't think I saw her mouth flapping... 

I think dogs like her are great for learning with. You just need to work on the control and positioning with her - which you will get as you gain more confidence and experience and work on the handling stuff. You don't have to also really work on motivation as well - which is really hard when you're not feeling the confidence out there. It's a good thing.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

She is beautiful. 

She looks over stimulated to me -- does she have a mat or place command? She barks, you send her to her mat or crate her. It doesn't have to be for long but it needs to be immediate


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Crate games is a pretty integral part of H360, so we are getting pretty good at that. She has done mat work but not in a year or so. Since a mat would be easier to drag around out onto the drill field I think I will do some refreshment of that. That's another one we've only done in the living room so I guess I should move it around a bit.


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## Cyrra (Oct 30, 2009)

While Murphy doesn't jump and bite at my hands, one thing he does is bark at me in the agility ring if we are not communicating properly. I found that once I was issuing my commands more timely for him the barking and looking back to see where I was lessened. If I run a set of say jump, jump, tunnel, weave I better be yelling the next obstacle WHILE he's on the current one, otherwise it inevitably results in a look back/spin bark at mom. When he's in that tunnel, I better be yelling weave or we will miss a clean entrance.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I am certain it is because of my lack of clarity for her. I just don't think biting me is the appropriate response! But she gets so easily over-stimulated that once it starts I haven't been able to get her out of it to continue on with the course. I believe the biting thing is two-fold of my lack of clear directions (which hopefully H360 will help with) and her self control issues, which is what I'm hoping doggie zen, it's yer choice, mat or crate work will help with.


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## Atis (Jul 8, 2014)

When JP and I started agility I learned early on that having a dog that was overly food motivated can create problems as well. What I found worked for us was to start weening him off food rewards in the ring and to focus on verbal praise and petting, saving the food as a jackpot reward (kept outside the ring) after the run. In our case it kept him focused on me and not what was in my hand. This also allowed me to use both of my hands freely for giving directions without worrying about raising a hand that he thinks may have a hidden treat. This is what works best for us, maybe trying it would be helpful. Good luck


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

One thing I have found very effective but is hard to do ... they act out a lot (ie; nipping which is not allowed and barking which is not allowed either  my rules but as the saying goes 'your mileage may vary'  ) is

> the walk of shame. You no play by my rules of manners, you no play. Off to the crate, car etc at a slow and measured pace. It can be harsh but my dogs understand this correction since they want to work & play. It can also be frustrating for me since often times I have paid for the class/event and have probably driven at least an hour to get there, but I really dislike barking/nipping/herding type behaviors and have worked hard enough at re-enforcement that my dogs react well to the disappearance of the possibility of re-enforcement (hope that makes sense?) . 

Now if I could only get them all to be quiet in their crates while I am working another dog LOL I have 4 dogs. This will also allow me to at times use my turn with another dog in a class situation or when I have multiple dogs at a training session.


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## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

Ditto on the "no food in hand in the ring" with Luna. She was so food motivated that she focused on my hand ONLY for the reward, not the direction to the obstacle. Just a thought - any chance you're trying your agility course with too much focus on speed? Luna's focus improved immensely when I slowed down and concentrated on accuracy rather than speed. I had more time to correctly set her up, and to give verbal direction. Although Luna was never a barker/jumper/nipper, I could tell when I'd confused her. Slowing down made a huge difference.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I think every trainer I've ever worked with quickly tells me to get the food out of hand, so that is a known problem!
I have considered the walk of shame but haven't done it. That is something I will do next time she gets out of control. I did the "go to crate" this morning while working with her in the back yard, and that really did seem to reset her state of mind.
She actually seems to do better when I can go at faster speeds. If I'm going too slow, she's all over me.
On a bright note, we had drill this morning and I did get an opportunity to try the doggie zen/IYC game when she started jumping at my hand. I took a treat out of my pocket and worked her through calming to get it. She was much better after that.


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