# Ridgeview Goldens will have puppies on the ground 12/1



## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I noticed my Gambler's grandfather (Sunbeam's Cruise Control) in the 5 year generation. 
AND, of course I think Gambler is VERY HANDSOME and wonderful.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Very nice pairing

I don't see Summits current CERF listed in www.offa.org- It may not have been fully processed and posted yet. Just make sure to see a copy.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Sonny's eye clearance is current. I suspect it just hasn't been sent in yet. It should be a lovely litter! Obviously I'm a little biased since they will be half-siblings to my Kira. And I cannot say enough good things about Melissa at Ridgeview, she is wonderful


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

There are an awful lot of reputable breeders who have decided that breeding to Sonny is acceptable. I know that Melissa has thought deeply about this. I guess we'll see.

Your 45% comment isn't necessarily accurate in other than a general sense. I've read the study that came up with that number, which is general statistical figure for puppies from two parents with ED -- not the case here, as both parents have good hips and elbows. To my knowledge, no one really knows the risks in any particular pairing, and how ED is passed on, and how much of it is environmental, and what the true rate is, as most pet dogs -- the vast majority from most litters -- never get tested or reported. As you correctly note, almost all of Sonny's siblings were sold to show homes. Who knows what the rate would be if all pet puppies were tested and reported? That's one of the self-acknowledged limitations of the study you cite.

Also, the Sonny sibling elbows all seem to be from the particular pairing of Ryder x Versace. When you look at the pairings of each of those dogs with others, you don't see the elbows (but again, you also don't see all the pups going to show homes and getting tested). And unfortunately, no one knows how that trait is passed on, or if there is a heightened risk in subsequent generations (beyond the generation of Ryder x Versace pups). In fact, not a single study has noted a second generation increase in ED from pups who passed OFA; and instead have noted in that generation the exact same 11% rate of reported ED. So, the only study on point concludes that pups of parents who both passed OFA hips (even if siblings did not) has the exact same chance of ED as found in the general population.

Of course, none of this is determinative. We all want a LOT more information on these things. Our lack of real knowledge is frustrating, and can lead to a lot of different opinions as we all try to tease out the truth and the real risks. Which, I suppose, is why breeders differ so much in their ideas of what is and is not a risky breeding.

And the reason I am aware of the Ryder issues and ED studies is because of a long conversation with Melissa about this, and how she evaluated the risk in this breeding. She is very open about this. I even contacted some of the owners of Sonny siblings that didn't pass elbows to see what the situation was, hoping I could learn more about this. One was due to an injury. Two others were asymptomatic grade 1 ED in one elbow (both the left). None of them were bred.

I will be interested in seeing how all the great many Sonny pups around the country test as they get old enough for OFA certs. If you go by the study conclusions, this Sonny x Roxy litter should have no greater incidence than the general population. But we shall see.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I'd also like to make a comment on the point that a lot of breeders are breeding to him....sadly I don't see that as a good sign...It is discussed a lot among breeders about "popular sire syndrome" and breeding to what wins. Sonny has done VERY well in the ring and so has many of his siblings. It has been an incredible breeding in terms of success in the show ring....do you think its possible that fact might allow breeders to rationalize some health risks, in hopes of producing a litter of winners?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

This is the same discussion that comes up all over the country every time someone breeds to Sonny, because he is the #3 Golden in the country this year (and his sister, Chloe is #1), and because he is being sired prolifically. I doubt we will have anything new to say. The only science we have that I have seen suggests that the odds of ED in issue from any two parents passing elbows is 11%, and does not indicate causation of higher rates due to clearances or lack thereof in aunts and uncles. I would certainly be very interested in reading any study that concludes a heightened risk, as you say, so would you be kind enough to provide me a link or other source that I can read? I'm very interested in learning as much as possible about this so I can tell fact from conjecture. I'm trying to find every scientific study on this that I can. The problem for all of us is that there just isn't enough, at this point. But please help me learn by pointing me in the right direction. I will happily agree with you on all of this if I can "see it with my own eyes."

There is so much conflicting anecdotal evidence out there, it's head-spinning. I know of a litter of six, where three of the pups were exercised hard at a young age, and three were not. The three that were exercised all failed elbows. The three that were not all passed. What does that say? No one knows. But that doesn't stop people from coming to all sorts of conclusions. We are all looking for answers where certainty is lacking.

I'm not sure about your suggestion that it doesn't matter whether we test all pups in a litter or which ones we test. The ones who are tested tend to be the ones that seem most structurally sound at 8 weeks, and which go on to be shown. The ones with perhaps the greater potential for hip or elbow problems often don't get sent to show homes and don't get tested. At 8 weeks you can tell on some puppies that their front ends are not put together in a sound way, and I suggest that those are the most likely to fail elbows and the least likely to be tested.

As for your suggestion that popular sire syndrome might give rise to denial in breeders, that certainly can be the case. We humans have a terrific and unfortunate capacity for rationalization. But I would hesitate to label all breeders who choose to breed to a particular dog (Sonny or another) as rationalizing, just because they make a breeding that you would not.

But you talk about popular sire syndrome, it is definitely a problem. Kirby (Rush Hill's Haagen Dazs) produced more children than China does, and he didn't receive clearances until he was 10 years old. Back then, they just weren't available and people were breeding in the dark, passing on huge numbers of problems throughout the breed. Thankfully, Kirby passed and his kids did pretty well.

I think you've pretty successfully trashed Sonny pups, here. I don't think it's warranted. In a couple years we can compare notes on how all the great many Sonny pups across the country fare on OFAs.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I think that until every golden gets tested for hips and elbows, you cannot make blanket statements about the heritability of such traits. I have a bitch who has clear elbows and hips and has produced such. Other than her puppy that I kept, all went to pet homes, so no OFA's, but none are clinical for any lameness... I sold one of her brothers whose owners came back to me two years later for a pup. My bitch reaborbed her pups, so I sent them to the breeder that had the sire of the dog they got from me.... At least three pups from that very large litter had clinical ED and HD. I own an extremely sound 8.5 year old bitch from the same sire. While it gave me pause to know he sired ED and HD, you also have to consider that some combos are not meant to be. A friend of mine bred a litter years ago and all pups were clinically sound. She bred the same bitch to a different dog and most male pups in the litter had shoulder OCD.... OFA is also skewed as some animals rads are not sent in when ED and HD are blatantly obvious...

And anyone who has ever bred a litter knows it is always a judgment call. Can any breeder here tell me that there isn't something somewhere in a pedigree that gives them pause???


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have a bitch who has clear elbows and hips and has produced such. Other than her puppy that I kept, all went to pet homes, so no OFA's,...


Are there any breeders that ever stipulate in their contracts that even pet puppies be health tested? I had Chance's elbow x-rayed when he was 2.5 years old and at the time went ahead and did his other elbow and also his hips. Are breeders ever curious as to how their pet puppies would test? I would have no issue if I ever bought a puppy with this in it's contract. Just wondering if it's ever done and if it's felt that this would hinder puppy buyers.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

kdowningxc said:


> I know of many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows.


Wow. On my second reading of your post, this really stuck out. Really? Is this true? Please, do tell me the details. You appear to have information far beyond what other breeders have told me, and what is listed on both the OFA and K-9 Data websites, combined. Please tell me which are the "many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows." This would seem to be stunningly damning, indeed, with regard to Ryder. Ryder sired 72 litters out of 54 separate dams, that I know of. Please identify the "many other litters" where "the entire litter failed elbows."

Wow. I'd think the whole Golden Retriever world would have deafening alarm bells ringing if that were true, considering how many puppies Ryder sired, and how many lines he is now in.

I just have to say it again: Wow. What a damning statement, and defamatory if it's not true.

With Sonny (the sire of this litter), all but one pup in his litter was tested, and all but one of those cleared hips, elbows, heart and eyes. And I've looked at every other litter of Ryder's that I could find. I did find some where no puppies from the litter were tested (and none of them were shown), and I have talked to a number of people who have bred to Ryder, but I did not find any Ryder litters where the "entire litter failed elbows." Having made the statement and raised the issue, if you really do know of "many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows" you should definitely tell me where they are. I'm sure others would like to know, too.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Kwhit, my second golden came from a breeder who required hips and elbows on pups. Of the six in this litter there were many clear elbows and four clear hips. The breeder,her self who was privy to all of our info, did ,not tell us how her pup turned out(didn't show up on OFA and was very vague with me when I questioned her). My girl ended up being mildly unilaterally dysplastic at 44 months. Ideally I would love for people to do rads, but not when they neuter, but at 24 months.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Not every breeder posts results to OFA or puts a litter on K9Data. Sometimes asking the breeder before assuming is the key to finding out information.


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## emerygoldens (Nov 14, 2012)

Hi all,

I was forwarded this thread by a friend and it really amazes me how people can be so ignorant when it comes to clearances regarding stud dogs, etc. I am not going to address this one by one because I am short on time but I URGE all of you to contact the breeders/owners/handlers before you make assumptions. Sonny comes from a litter and breeding that have a great success rate of clearances, just because something isnt on OFA does not mean that they failed. Until we require all pet people to do clearances we cannot assume. What I do know about this pedigree is that compared to most pedigrees they have a good clearance rating and the hip production record is fantastic. Multiple littermates in Sonny's litter were OFA excellent and quite frankly I was surprised when he got a good based on his XRAYS... maybe we will resubmit and try for an excellent. At any rate, I do not believe Sonny is just a dog that wins in the ring, quite frankly I think he will be remembered as a great stud dog based on how he is producing. Temperament, type, structure, and soundness. People are quick to point fingers when they see what is on the computer. I highly suggest you talk to people and get to know the dogs personally and understand whats really back there. I think you would be pleased once you educate yourself further.

Brianna Bischoff
Emery Goldens


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## emerygoldens (Nov 14, 2012)

I think its pretty **** good when 6 puppies clear everything, including multiple OFA Excellent hips...and one failed elbow out of 12 elbows to clear... Id say thats around a 95% rate of clearances?? Pretty good if you ask me...

Brianna


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> Wow. On my second reading of your post, this really stuck out. Really? Is this true? Please, do tell me the details. You appear to have information far beyond what other breeders have told me, and what is listed on both the OFA and K-9 Data websites, combined. Please tell me which are the "many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows." This would seem to be stunningly damning, indeed, with regard to Ryder. Ryder sired 72 litters out of 54 separate dams, that I know of. Please identify the "many other litters" where "the entire litter failed elbows."
> 
> Wow. I'd think the whole Golden Retriever world would have deafening alarm bells ringing if that were true, considering how many puppies Ryder sired, and how many lines he is now in.
> 
> ...


I would also like to know the "many other [Ryder] litters" where "the entire litter failed elbows." A statement, I suspect, that was just put in there in an attempt to prove a point with no data to back it up. That is a dangerous game to play... making such a grandiose statement like that. I suspect the owners and breeders of Ryder, the owners/breeders of Sonny (and his siblings) and owners/breeders of other Ryder offspring would also be interested to know this information. 

As a general matter, there is no pedigree I have seen that is perfect for one reason or another. If there is, please show me this holy grail of soundness, breed type, longevity and perfect health so we can direct all breeders to breed to him. People who have been involved in dogs for any short amount of time, like me as a relative novice in conformation, know that there is an inherent risk with every pedigree. No pedigree is entirely perfect and anyone who says that a pedigree is perfect is either being untruthful or just hasn't done their research. That being said, I know Melissa at Ridgeview put a great deal of thought and research into this breeding. And I would encourage anyone with questions to contact Melissa.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

No dog is perfect, no pedigree is perfect... There is always something... Careful the statements you make... There needs to be a public place that backs up the accusations...


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## goldens2show (May 7, 2009)

I am appalled that someone would choose to air personal opinions of a famous stud dog in our breed (a top producer and sire of the current #1 bitch & #1 dog in breed this year). I know that Judy welcomes talking about pedigrees and health and has more knowledge and integrity then most of us could ever hope to have in a lifetime of work with this breed. I was asked to post this response from the owners of Ryder since they don’t have access to this group. 


The recent post of Ryder has been very painful and very untrue. It is not a full picture. ???????? I don't know why you are so hateful Of Ryder and his kids. It appears to me you think you know everything but you have personally accomplished very little. 

The Ryder story is one of a dream come true. My husband and I wanted to see if we could special a dog and put him in the SDHF. Ryder was finished by us and his breeder. His Hall of Fame points came mostly by Ken. We had the right dog and we had to learn to groom and handle better to compete at that level. Ryder had five Specialty BOB handled by Ken or his breeder Donna. Ryder was a Top Twenty Golden in 2006. We didn't take out ads. It was hard but we achieved our goal with our boy.

As a stud dog Ryder was especially on his own, no advertising. We met some wonderful people along the way who I am now proud to call friends. It was always about good people and good dogs. To date Ryder has sired 41 Champions, Leader Dogs for the blind, and the best granddog pups you can imagine.

If anyone wants to know about a stud dog, they should contact the owner and try not to pay attention to people who are mean spirited and like to denigrate others peoples achievements.

Was everything perfect all the time? Of course not, but, that's the reality of dog breeding. Pointing fingers and spreading rumors certainly doesn't help openness among breeders.

And yes dogs do have mothers too.

If anyone has any questions, call

Judy Schlecht
Confetti Goldens


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Like I said earlier....ASK THE BREEDER!!!! 

You point one finger, there are 3 others pointing right back at you. With that, this thread should be ended. I commend those of you who have stated facts because you know what you're talking about.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

So. Anyway, I'm excited about this litter and wanted to tell people about it. 

And I get the pick male, which I'm very excited about.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

kwhit said:


> Are there any breeders that ever stipulate in their contracts that even pet puppies be health tested? I had Chance's elbow x-rayed when he was 2.5 years old and at the time went ahead and did his other elbow and also his hips. Are breeders ever curious as to how their pet puppies would test? I would have no issue if I ever bought a puppy with this in it's contract. Just wondering if it's ever done and if it's felt that this would hinder puppy buyers.[/QUOTE
> 
> Actually, the breeder I got my Raider from did stipulate in his purchase contract that I do all his clearances at the appropriate times and had me sign it saying I would. And I did comply with it, I felt lucky to have been chosen as his owner and I was happy to do it. She also offered a rebate when certain other conditions had been met such as titles and also because I met all the conditions in the contract changed his limited registration to a full. Which didn't matter because he was neutered at 4 anyway. I had no problem what so ever signing the contract and agreeing to all the different requirements.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

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## goldens2show (May 7, 2009)

kdowningxc said: Pedigree: Chantilly's Easy Ryder 
This entire litter failed elbows.
I'd like you to point out anything I said that wasn't fact.



First off you should state facts and the ENTIRE litter did not fail elbows. Second you should also look at the mother who in fact failed OFA elbows and the breeder went through a registry that no longer exists to get her to clear. How can you blame it all on the sire or stud dog owner? Who by the way had elbow clearences along with several generations behind him with clear elbows! Third you said there were MANY litters that had entire ED failures from this sire which again is inaccurate. Fourth no one is hiding anything, get off the computer and ask if it applies to your breeding program instead of stirring up trouble.


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## TheresaD (Oct 8, 2012)

Sounds to me like someone is jealous. I've been witness to some backbiting in the breeding ranks but this takes the cake.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I realize this is an extremely touchy subject, but I do appreciate the fact that reputable breeders and those pursuing titling their goldens are actively engaged in discussions. I do hope things can remain civil because this forum has so much to gain from multiple reputable breeders discussing topics like these in the open as opposed to the great number of BYBs and HVBs who pass through with their slick websites and spun stories touting their dogs are healthy & don't need clearances. I do fear if the tone is catty (and I understand reputations are on the line here) that this will just reinforce the average public to steer clear of reputable breeders and fall prey to those with the great marketing schemes cause they seem to be "friendly".


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm excited for you DanaRuns...I hope he is everything and more than you wanted...Thanks for sharing...


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

kwhit said:


> Are there any breeders that ever stipulate in their contracts that even pet puppies be health tested? I had Chance's elbow x-rayed when he was 2.5 years old and at the time went ahead and did his other elbow and also his hips. Are breeders ever curious as to how their pet puppies would test? I would have no issue if I ever bought a puppy with this in it's contract. Just wondering if it's ever done and if it's felt that this would hinder puppy buyers.


I would LOVE to have all my pet puppies checked (even considered paying for half of it myself) but some people think we (breeders) are already too demanding in our contracts and have too many "ridiculous" stipulations for them anyways. I would love to know if I as a breeder am doing a good job on the overall - I would love to know if the siblings of my breeding dogs have strong or weak clearances - I personally think that breadth of clearances is just as important or depth. If my bitch is the only pass in a litter of fails I wouldn't want to be breeding her without knowing how I can avoid passing those traits on.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I don't care what kdowning says. I've researched the **** out of this breeding, talked to tons of owners/breeders, and read clearances and studies until my head started spinning. This pairing looks fantastic and as safe as any. And I note that Kim's statements don't hold up, and she changes her story. I've also talked with others (some on this board) who had _rational[\i] questions about Ryder's pups, who bought Ryder pups, who bought Sonny pups, who chose not to buy those pups, who own Ryder siblings, and two veterinarians (who were actually the least help of anyone). I'm satisfied.

And I'm not going to let a bloviating sourpuss spoil my fun! _


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Don't let what others say bring you down, Dana! Happy puppyhood to you!


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Nor should you....I just don't get involved in those kinds of discussions...I will read them and see if there is any information I can get that is useful...but I choose not to participate for various reasons. 

I am genuinely happy for you...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

You are on quite a high horse, kdowning. One litter where the dam also failed elbows is not "many" litters, where are the others??? (And that is a very poor example, at best. Of course we always blame the sire, right???) And how do you know the breeders aren't discussing this with potential puppy buyers? Obviously the OP had been apprised of any potential issue prior to your inaccurate post, but you assumed everyone was playing hide the ball. 

My "touchiness" is that you are putting inaccurate information out there for dramatic effect and it can have a lasting impression on someone's breeding program. How condescending to write that you're sure they'll "make great show dogs!" All this about a breeder you've never spoken to or met, and a breeding of dogs where you had no input in the decision. But you know everything, right??? Of course you do. 

Melissa is a wonderful, reputable, conscientious breeder. I know her very well and co-own two dogs with her. I do not appreciate you badmouthing her breeding program or her choice of stud dog based on information you have "heard" but haven't produced the data to back up your statement. You didn't say "hey check out the elbow history in the pedigree" you said "*I know of many other litters out of Ryder where the entire litter failed elbows." *That is not trying to help potential puppy buyers, that is spreading inaccurate information with no data to back it up. Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

You know, I think it is safe to say we have ALL been attacked on here. For cripes sake, I was attacked on here when I was 14 years old! You take the good with the bad and simply move on.


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## TheresaD (Oct 8, 2012)

kdowningxc said:


> last post from me


 Uh-huh. Sure.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

kdowningxc said:


> last post from me, I would like to see the thread closed since many personal attacks were made and not much education is happening anymore...


Oh, no, I don't think so. This is my thread that I started to celebrate my upcoming puppy and his siblings. It was supposed to be a joyful thing. Which didn't last long once you came in here and started trashing Sonny (and then Ryder). If you feel attacked, it's because of the way you handled this. It was not unprovoked. And rather than closing my thread over it, why don't you either just tone it down or refrain from posting.

I did not take you to task in this thread, even though I felt you were way off base and rained on my little parade. And I didn't take the bait when you suggested someone list all your incorrect statements. Which I could have. I tell facts from hyperbole for a living, and am quite adept detailing them, one by one, for everyone to see. And on behalf of the breeder of this litter, I probably should have. After all, you successfully scared off anyone who would celebrate with me. And what you said can hurt people, unjustly. But that's not what this thread was for.

So let's not lock this thread. I still want to celebrate my impending puppy, with or without you. And a healthy discussion of breeding risks is beneficial to everyone.

Then again, I suppose you've ruined my fun after all, so lock the thread if you like. I'm outta here.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Yeah, you don't get to post untrue things about reputable breeders and prolific sires and then request the thread be closed. Saying "many" means many. That is not a typo. A typo is "manny" instead of "many." Let's call it what it was. You making accusations about Ryder when you didn't have the data to back it up. You making accusations about Melissa at Ridgeview without the data to back it up. Both of those things are wrong and are not educational in the slightest. 

How do you know that Melissa bred Roxy to Sonny because he is a ranked dog? You keep harping on that fact. You are making a number of assumptions that are incorrect. I know, for a fact, that Sonny's current status in the rankings had NO impact on Melissa's decision to breed to him. If anything it was a deterrent from breeding to him due to potential logistical difficulties of breeding to a dog out being shown. He was chosen as (hopefully) the best dog to compliment the bitch. Again, you are just plain wrong. In the future, if you don't have the facts and are just making assumptions don't POST THEM ON THE INTERNET.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

kdowningxc said:


> I'd also like to make a comment on the point that a lot of breeders are breeding to him....sadly I don't see that as a good sign...It is discussed a lot among breeders about "popular sire syndrome" and breeding to what wins. Sonny has done VERY well in the ring and so has many of his siblings. It has been an incredible breeding in terms of success in the show ring....do you think its possible that fact might allow breeders to rationalize some health risks, in hopes of producing a litter of winners?


Hey kdowningxc, you missed deleting this one if you are deleting all of your posts here.

DanaRuns, enjoy your future puppy. Don't let a poster who makes inflammatory statements without supporting facts ruin your excitement.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Dana, how exciting! I think the parade continues..... even if one of the floats broke down or a band member stepped in some cr*p! Can't wait to hear all about your lil' one as time progresses.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

She's deleting her comments here, and is PMing me, instead. I told her to stop messaging me, and that I would post her messages publicly as a deterent, so here it is.



> It is against forum rule #12 to post private correspondence. The body of the PM has been deleted by the moderation team.


Now, I would not have posted this publicly, except that the mods said there is nothing they can do about PMs, so I'm left to figure out my own solution. And since I don't block anyone, deterrent is my choice. Sorry. I know it's distasteful. It is to me, too.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I deleted my posts because this thread is far too personal. I have my opinions, and posting PM's is against the policy of the forum. I PM'd you to clarify my opinion, which you replied with swear words, and very angry. None of this is personal, I think not wanting a puppy from a certain line is not meant to be an insult just my opinion...and I respect your opinion to get whatever puppy you want. I also wished you well and thought the puppy would be lovely.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

LOL now two puppies tested now accounts for ten puppies?????????? What??? LOL you guys need to get lives.


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