# what does 'moderate' refer to?



## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

It is my understanding that a moderate dog is not “extreme” in ways. So maybe a little lighter in bone than the average show Golden. In some breeds people will say “I love the moderate head” meaning the head isn’t extreme as other dogs winning in the ring.
Or in the case of turn of stifle in some setters, some people say “moderate” versus the extreme turn of stifle some dogs have that ends up making them a little unbalanced between front and back.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Moderate is in the eye of the beholder.

To me, moderate does not mean small, it means “in the middle”. Eevee’s sire for instance, having seen him in person, I consider to be a pretty moderate dog. He’s not too tall, not overdone, normal coat, etc. He’s muscular and athletic. If you compared him to a light boned field dog or even a small male show dog, you might think “he’s not moderate at all”. Then compare him to a big, overdone male and you’ll see what I mean. I think an eye for what moderate means in general needs to be developed.

Moderate doesn’t just refer to height - you can have an overdone dog that is on the shorter end of standard. That dog might have (in some opinions) too much bone and/or coat, an overdone head, etc.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

To me it is one of the most over-abused words in conformation. 

I would not consider the golden who won the breed at a big show not too long ago to be a "moderate" dog, but that was a word everyone was dropping. It was astounding to see all the "I own a field dog" people babbling about how "That is a golden!" referring to the coat being "moderate". Meanwhile, I saw a dog dripping in long silky coat!!!!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> To me it is one of the most over-abused words in conformation.
> 
> I would not consider the golden who won the breed at a big show not too long ago to be a "moderate" dog, but that was a word everyone was dropping. It was astounding to see all the "I own a field dog" people babbling about how "That is a golden!" referring to the coat being "moderate". Meanwhile, I saw a dog dripping in long silky coat!!!!


You know, I kinda think so too re: over-abused. And like I said, "moderate" means something different to nearly every person you talk to. Everyone knows that a moderate dog is most correct per the standard so they all want their dogs to be moderate, whether they are or not. Their definition of moderate is going to be biased toward their own dogs. Although, there are some very successful (read: winning) breeders that know good and well their dogs aren't moderate re: size and coat, but they win so....


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Haha Kate I agree....he is not a moderate dog...he's very nice obviously but I wouldn't say moderate either. 
Moderate does NOT mean mediocre!!!
A phrase I like..."YOU CALL IT OLD FASHIONED...WE CALL IT CORRECT"

Moderate is "without extremes." Bigger is not always better.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

So- we want a moderate dog. Some dogs are called moderate and are not moderate. A dog can still be a nice dog, even a correct dog but perhaps stretching some part of the standard, too much coat, too much bone, too much headpiece... and to call such a dog moderate says the speaker doesn't know overdone. It's a fine line.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> So- we want a moderate dog. Some dogs are called moderate and are not moderate. A dog can still be a nice dog, even a correct dog but perhaps stretching some part of the standard, too much coat, too much bone, too much headpiece... and to call such a dog moderate says the speaker doesn't know overdone. It's a fine line.


So does one quality being extreme - say coat for instance - and all other qualities being moderate/correct mean that the entire dog is not moderate? In other words, does one extreme quality negate all other qualities and make a dog not moderate?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'd call that dog a moderate dog with excessive coat..


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Just curious, do you all think of 'moderate' only in physical terms? I realize this is under the 'conformation' board but I actually think of it in terms of the whole dog, not only conformation but also what's inside the dog - athleticism/instinct/drive. As an amateur trainer/owner/competitor I want a moderate Golden in all respects - the whole package. I am not more equipped to deal with a Ferrari level field or agility competitor than I am a huge, big boned dog with a coat that won't air dry in a day. I do want a dog who fits the standard and isn't a couch potato, wants to do things with me at the drop of a hat. I was just curious if I am the only person who thinks this way.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

For me, I’m usually looking at photos and can’t usually evaluate the temperament of the dog.
But if I could, I can see how a temperament can be described as moderate, but I’m not sure if that’s how I would describe a temperament. 
I think there are degrees of temperament (drive) and the breed standard calls for a specific temperament with some being low drive and others being high drive. 
I think this is more heavily the realm of personal preference. I would never describe my Border Collies’ temperament as moderate, but there are definitely extremes on either side. 
This is a very good question and I guess it’s not one I thought much about


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

nolefan said:


> Just curious, do you all think of 'moderate' only in physical terms? I realize this is under the 'conformation' board but I actually think of it in terms of the whole dog, not only conformation but also what's inside the dog - athleticism/instinct/drive. As an amateur trainer/owner/competitor I want a moderate Golden in all respects - the whole package. I am not more equipped to deal with a Ferrari level field or agility competitor than I am a huge, big boned dog with a coat that won't air dry in a day. I do want a dog who fits the standard and isn't a couch potato, wants to do things with me at the drop of a hat. I was just curious if I am the only person who thinks this way.


I personally don’t think of a dog’s temperament in terms of moderate or overdone. I don’t want a super high drive dog, but I don’t want a slug either. I guess you could describe Rocket as having a moderate temperament, but I’ve never really thought of it that way before. Interesting point Kristy!

I think people typically use the word “moderate” to describe physical attributes of a dog, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be used to describe the whole dog. When I describe a dog’s temperament, working ability, or just raw talent, I used words more on a scale of low to high for drive, energy, and intelligence, typically using medium for dogs in between.


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## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

its very interesting to see what everyone's definition of moderate is, I loved reading the replies. I don't think moderate means mediocre as well, as most of the dogs that I have seen people use that term, all look very very nice to me, but yes maybe some have lighter bone like @Tagrenine mentioned. 

so if a dog has an overdone head, but everything else was moderate and not extreme, would this be a moderate dog with an overdone head? 

@Megora if you are referring to Daniel, He's not what I would say as moderate as well as he looks quite 'heavy boned, but do you think he is 'overdone' in anyway? I saw another thread here where some were saying they could spot Daniel's flaws, and me having very little experience and eye, I'm wondering what those are! personally I didn't think he had an excessive coat though.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

So I was curious and browsed around on the subject of "moderate", because to me - if a dog is in "excess" in one area or more, that dog cannot be called "moderate".

I did see a breeder/owner/judge (who I completely respect and wish I could show under her if only local clubs would invite her to judge goldens!) who identified it as "not extreme in any way. Bone, angulation, coat, head, movement, color, temperament, size." And I think that is about right.

Dripping in coat or tons of bone = not moderate
No coat or reedy build = not moderate

I was going to post pictures of big name dogs out there who I've seen in person and feel they truly are moderate... but I'm guessing that's some danger territory. I don't think anyone wants to find out their dog is being randomly critiqued on this forum....

So I will say this - and if I'm wrong, go ahead and tell me "Katie you are abusing the word moderate too!" LOL. 

In general, I think both of my babies are correct. I'd say their dad is too because I love how sporty and athletic he still is at 8 years old, but I'm trying to be fair since I said another dog was not moderate because his overly full and long bib and feathers rippled and waved in a disconcerting way as he went around the ring.... 

So just the babies -

23.5" at the shoulders, both of them.

Glee is 66 pounds and Jovi is 69 pounds.

Coats - they both have nice coats for their age. And more importantly, the coats are correct. That might change if they get as old as the dog who I was referring to earlier, but as of right now they are easy care wash and run dry in a few minutes on their own type dogs.

Heads - I love their heads. Glee has more of the fine boned Hobo type head piece. Jovi's head is similar, but fuller and softer without being too broad and coarse. If you want to injure your brain, their heads measure the same size. All 3 of my dogs, their heads measure 20" around the broadest point.

Bone - this is the first question mark, because Jovi is one of those dogs who people mentally add 30 pounds when they see him because he's a brawny little man. Regardless, I'm very happy with what he has and do not personally think it's in excess when you compare him to other 2 year olds in the ring. Compare him to performance bred dogs? Yeah, he's the size of like 2-3 of them together. Glee has the same build his dad had at the same age.

When I think moderate, that's typically what I think of. In general. Yes, there is probably bias in there because they are my dogs and I had a part in making them.

For "not moderate" - I have seen dogs go into the ring where they were doggy looking bitches without any coat, and I did not think of them as being moderate.

I have seen dogs go into the ring where they are only 6-9 months old and have more coat than some adult dogs? Not moderate.

I have seen dogs who are 24-25" - and they look huge out there in the ring. I do not think you can refer to them as moderate, though I will say I think they are more correct than dogs who are 2-3" below breed standard and/or up to 1/2 the specified weight.




nolefan said:


> Just curious, do you all think of 'moderate' only in physical terms? I realize this is under the 'conformation' board but I actually think of it in terms of the whole dog, not only conformation but also what's inside the dog - athleticism/instinct/drive. As an amateur trainer/owner/competitor I want a moderate Golden in all respects - the whole package. I am not more equipped to deal with a Ferrari level field or agility competitor than I am a huge, big boned dog with a coat that won't air dry in a day. I do want a dog who fits the standard and isn't a couch potato, wants to do things with me at the drop of a hat. I was just curious if I am the only person who thinks this way.


Yes. Moderate to me means this should be an active, sporty, trainable, and livable-with kind of dog.

It's not a couch potato.

It's not a dog bouncing off the walls and knocking ring gates over and trampling them when sent out to "go touch" (yes, I've seen that happen)....

If I wanted a mastiff or a newfie (energy wise), I would have bought a mastiff or a newfie.

If I wanted a border collie or malinois, I would have bought a border collie or malinois.

Rather than blur the lines between breeds to create a mish mash of things that people want in a pet or performance dog, I think you should aim at protecting the breed and educating puppy shoppers before they buy the wrong dog breed for what they want.

My Glee - is my wild man. He's the one who will run for fun. And you see him running full blast and then switching into high gear (speeding up!) while swooping past his brother while instigating play. He is the one who jumps over everything - including jumping over both his dad and brother standing together and clearing both dogs with feet above and beyond to spare - which happened today.

Glee also got to go back to obedience class this morning - which was done outside in a field with other dogs. I was nervous and confessed to the trainer that I expected a disaster since Glee knows fields are for running like mad man. To my relief, he knew he was working and maintained focus the whole time.

And then at home around the house, this is a dog who likes being underfoot... or sometimes he goes off and noses the crate door open and goes in there to sleep. More so than his dad and brother, he's very obedient and tries extra hard to be right. He is one of those dogs who if you correct him too hard, he will have a melt down trying to do everything to be right. He is not a dog who would do well with a hard handed trainer. But I don't think most goldens are or should be.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Talk to me about showing your moderate boys...

Turns out we talked about this around a year ago and I really like @Ljilly28's description on page 2 and explanation of using the term moderate. I also saw that back then I described Eevee's sire as not being moderate, and then I saw him in person and changed my mind. Going to dog shows and watching with someone who knows their stuff is about the only way to really develop your eye - keeping in mind that nearly everyone has a different vision of what is a good dog. EDIT: Not saying my eye is developed, I learn more at each show. 

SO, I think this is a good point to make: pictures can be deceiving as far as how a dog is actually built.

Also, I was right about Eevee. LOL


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Great thread! I would consider my pup Moira to be a moderate dog... perfect size, structure, coat according to standard. She can go to the lake, run in the woods and everything just shakes off her dense coat. Besides I love the darker golden  But clearly she was "designed" (no offense if this term is inappropriate) to do the job and look great doing it. 

Sipsy... God love her she's a mess. Size is within standard but she is very large boned, huge feet, poor structure, excessive coat and clearly bred to look good vs function. Breeder standard vs GRCA? Taking her to the lake or trails requires at least an hour of brushing just to get the stuff out of her coat, 2 if you include a bath. She has the drive and desire to do the job but not dressed or built for the occasion. I would never consider her to be a moderate dog in any aspect. Because her lines come from breeders that do nothing with their dogs but show in conformation, they have lost perspective on the purpose for the breed but very marketable.
Thanks for such an interesting topic.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

As the one who started the thread last year - yes, I meant without any extremes and I was referring more to size. I let my boy grow out slow and steady and he was still undersized at 6 months of age - I know many dogs at that age have already hit breed standard. I did not show him until he was over 23 inches, which he is now. But he is also not extreme in any way. Because I hope to do performance events with him, I also keep him rather lean and he will never be an 80 pound plus golden - he is just over 65 pounds at the moment. So looking at him as a young dog, he seemed as though he'd be within the breed standard, although not on at the top of the standard or even above as a decent number seem to be. People definitely seem to have different ideas about what moderate dogs are, though.

I never thought of or had heard of moderate as a term used for temperament. I can see from reading this discussion how it could be used that way, though.


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