# Max ad Puffy have gone RED ZONE



## alphadude

Max and Puffy have officially gone FULL RED ZONE and are seemingly trying to kill each other. For those that don't know, Max is 14.5 months old and Puffy is a bit past 5.5 years old. Both are intact males. It has gotten to the point now where any time they have access to each other it's a matter of not if but *when* the attack will start out of nowhere. There doesn't seem to be any trigger such as food or a toy. More often than not Max is the aggressor and he will walk over to Puffy displaying an aggressive posture (which I am well familiar with) tail totally erect and curled forward muscles tense, and launch a vicious attack. Most times I spot this and am fast enough to nip it in the bud before it gets started, occasionally I am not. The really bad fights have happened when I am in another room and they get a chance to really get into each other. Poor Puffy has apparently grown tired of being used as a chew toy and lately, I have seen him strike preemptively when Max approaches him in an aggressive posture. Friday night, I was in another room and Max just walked up and jumped Puffy in front of my wife and daughter in the kitchen. My wife started hosing them with water from the sink hose, both women were screaming and crying. I was there in less than 10 seconds. It took me over two full minutes to get them separated. Max had Puffy by the ear and either his bad rear legs collapsed or he slipped on the soaking wet ceramic tile floor so he was on the floor trying to rip off Max's right front leg. It was bad...REALLY BAD and this is coming from a guy who spent 8+ years watching Axl SHRED any dog that came at him looking for trouble. When I finally got them separated, and I had to resort to *punching* Max's mouth off Puffy's ear (a opposed to losing fingers) there was blood spatter on the freaking wall like a crime scene from SVU. Max's cheek was bleeding and Puffy also took a chunk out of his carpal pad. It was a NASTY scene. Puffy lost several chunks of flesh from the inside of his ear. 

They had another go tonight when I was 2 feet away - this time not even any posturing seemingly normal and then boom, game on. I'm not even sure which one initiated hostilities - it looked simultaneous to me. My younger daughter tried the wheelbarrow maneuver with Max and he would NOT let go. Once again I had to punch his mouth off Puffy's poor mangled ear. My daughter pinned Max to the ground almost getting bitten in the face because he was still going ballistic, and I wrestled Puffy into another room. Both bleeding again, Puffy lost more ear meat, Max lost a chunk under his eye. We all spent a half hour cleaning, disinfecting, and treating their wounds (separately of course).

This has become a *really serious* problem and it CANNOT continue. My house has been turned into a war zone and the women are all basically shell shocked. Now everyone is on edge (including me) and I'm sure that is only exacerbating the situation because the dogs are no doubt picking up on the tension in the air.

Surprisingly, poor Jack stays completely out of it but it is obviously affecting him too because he's a nervous wreck. During tonight's festivities, I thought he was going to get in on the act and that would have been *VERY* bad news. Trying to subdue almost 300 lbs worth of 3 raging canines might force me to resort to using enough force to badly injure (or worse) one of these dogs not even to mention the fact that I'd probably not come out of it unscathed by any means. Obviously,I do *not* want this to ever happen, but as always, I will do what is necessary.

Before anyone suggests it, I am 99% sure that I am getting them BOTH neutered ASAP. I am aware that it's only 50/50 that this will help, and I also know that even if it does, it's going to take some time.

I am even open to bringing in a behaviorist - something I NEVER thought I would say being very much a DIY guy when it comes to my dogs.

As I see it, Max is the equivalent of a 15 year old boy with RAGING hormones, coming of age, feeling his oats, and trying to assert dominance over Puffy who he sees as a rival because he is also intact. My personal view is also that because they are fairly evenly matched and there is no clear victor and no clear loser, this is going to continue.

In the almost 5 years Axl and Puffy were together, never once was there an incident like this. Puffy KNEW better than to try it. there was no doubt who was dominant and who was submissive. Sure, they play fought multiple times a day, every day, and Ax would cuff him around like a rag doll, but NEVER did it come close to getting serious. Man I miss him, he would have restored order to this situation, in short order, that much I *know*.

I need some ideas here, because ultimately, if I can't fix this, one of them is going to have to go and that's not a road I want to go down.

One thing I am encouraged by, is the fact that neither has displayed any aggression towards people thankfully. When not in each other's presence, they are both perfectly normal, affectionate - matter of fact Puffy is lying on the bed next to me licking my arm as I type this. 

One last observation, these dogs are made of some tough stuff because after all they have been through in the last couple of weeks, neither seems worse for the wear, despite their respective wounds.
I am not at all sure Puffy has the ability to feel pain, and Max seems like he has a pretty high pain tolerance level as well.


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## Vika the Golden !

alphadude said:


> Max and Puffy have officially gone FULL RED ZONE and are seemingly trying to kill each other. For those that don't know, Max is 14.5 months old and Puffy is a bit past 5.5 years old. Both are intact males. It has gotten to the point now where any time they have access to each other it's a matter of not if but *when* the attack will start out of nowhere. There doesn't seem to be any trigger such as food or a toy. More often than not Max is the aggressor and he will walk over to Puffy displaying an aggressive posture (which I am well familiar with) tail totally erect and curled forward muscles tense, and launch a vicious attack. Most times I spot this and am fast enough to nip it in the bud before it gets started, occasionally I am not. The really bad fights have happened when I am in another room and they get a chance to really get into each other. Poor Puffy has apparently grown tired of being used as a chew toy and lately, I have seen him strike preemptively when Max approaches him in an aggressive posture. Friday night, I was in another room and Max just walked up and jumped Puffy in front of my wife and daughter in the kitchen. My wife started hosing them with water from the sink hose, both women were screaming and crying. I was there in less than 10 seconds. It took me over two full minutes to get them separated. Max had Puffy by the ear and either his bad rear legs collapsed or he slipped on the soaking wet ceramic tile floor so he was on the floor trying to rip off Max's right front leg. It was bad...REALLY BAD and this is coming from a guy who spent 8+ years watching Axl SHRED any dog that came at him looking for trouble. When I finally got them separated, and I had to resort to *punching* Max's mouth off Puffy's ear (a opposed to losing fingers) there was blood spatter on the freaking wall like a crime scene from SVU. Max's cheek was bleeding and Puffy also took a chunk out of his carpal pad. It was a NASTY scene. Puffy lost several chunks of flesh from the inside of his ear.
> 
> They had another go tonight when I was 2 feet away - this time not even any posturing seemingly normal and then boom, game on. I'm not even sure which one initiated hostilities - it looked simultaneous to me. My younger daughter tried the wheelbarrow maneuver with Max and he would NOT let go. Once again I had to punch his mouth off Puffy's poor mangled ear. My daughter pinned Max to the ground almost getting bitten in the face because he was still going ballistic, and I wrestled Puffy into another room. Both bleeding again, Puffy lost more ear meat, Max lost a chunk under his eye. We all spent a half hour cleaning, disinfecting, and treating their wounds (separately of course).
> 
> This has become a *really serious* problem and it CANNOT continue. My house has been turned into a war zone and the women are all basically shell shocked. Now everyone is on edge (including me) and I'm sure that is only exacerbating the situation because the dogs are no doubt picking up on the tension in the air.
> 
> Surprisingly, poor Jack stays completely out of it but it is obviously affecting him too because he's a nervous wreck. During tonight's festivities, I thought he was going to get in on the act and that would have been *VERY* bad news. Trying to subdue almost 300 lbs worth of 3 raging canines might force me to resort to using enough force to badly injure (or worse) one of these dogs not even to mention the fact that I'd probably not come out of it unscathed by any means. Obviously,I do *not* want this to ever happen, but as always, I will do what is necessary.
> 
> Before anyone suggests it, I am 99% sure that I am getting them BOTH neutered ASAP. I am aware that it's only 50/50 that this will help, and I also know that even if it does, it's going to take some time.
> 
> I am even open to bringing in a behaviorist - something I NEVER thought I would say being very much a DIY guy when it comes to my dogs.
> 
> As I see it, Max is the equivalent of a 15 year old boy with RAGING hormones, coming of age, feeling his oats, and trying to assert dominance over Puffy who he sees as a rival because he is also intact. My personal view is also that because they are fairly evenly matched and there is no clear victor and no clear loser, this is going to continue.
> 
> In the almost 5 years Axl and Puffy were together, never once was there an incident like this. Puffy KNEW better than to try it. there was no doubt who was dominant and who was submissive. Sure, they play fought multiple times a day, every day, and Ax would cuff him around like a rag doll, but NEVER did it come close to getting serious. Man I miss him, he would have restored order to this situation, in short order, that much I *know*.
> 
> I need some ideas here, because ultimately, if I can't fix this, one of them is going to have to go and that's not a road I want to go down.
> 
> One thing I am encouraged by, is the fact that neither has displayed any aggression towards people thankfully. When not in each other's presence, they are both perfectly normal, affectionate - matter of fact Puffy is lying on the bed next to me licking my arm as I type this.
> 
> One last observation, these dogs are made of some tough stuff because after all they have been through in the last couple of weeks, neither seems worse for the wear, despite their respective wounds.
> I am not at all sure Puffy has the ability to feel pain, and Max seems like he has a pretty high pain tolerance level as well.




I think that neutering will definitely help their hormones calm down !! 


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## Siandvm

I definitely think this is a job for a behaviorist, and not just a trainer, but a board certified veterinary behaviorist. That way you have the medical knowledge of things like neutering and behavior, ability to prescribe if that is what is necessary as part of the plan, as well as the behavior knowledge. The downside is that they probably won’t come to your house, which I think would be very helpful for seeing Puffy and Max interact. They may well recommend also working with a trainer for that aspect. I would recommend trying to get the initial interaction you described on video to show them as I’m sure this will be the key to starting to address what’s up with these guys. 

I’m SO sorry you and your family (including the dogs) are going through this! You’re right, I am sure, that this would not have stood were Axl still around. Having a clear top dog is so much easier for all involved!


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## aesthetic

I second the recommendation of a veterinary behaviorist. Have you talked to Max's breeder? Maybe he can give you some insight.

I'm so sorry you and your family is going through this, it's so tough. Hopefully you can find a way to work it out.


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## Max's Dad

I am so sorry to hear about these problems between Puffy and Max. I agree, neutering them both is a good idea. Please keep us posted.


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## rooroch

This is a terrible situation and I feel really sorry for all of you - dogs included. I had this once but with Mother and Daughter. I took daughter back when family could no longer keep her aged 3 due to divorce. All good for about 6 months then fighting started and they could not be in the same room. I rehomed the daughter to a lady whose elderly dog had died and she wanted an older dog. No other animal in the house.
I hope you can find a solution without having to place one of them. Good luck


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## Jessie'sGirl

Oh no. With all the good advice you've been given, I know you will sort out what your best move will be in this difficult situation.


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## jennretz

This sounds so stressful for all involved. Agree a veterinary behaviorist is a good start. I would keep them separate for now. It’s too risky.


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## rabernet

While I have no suggestions on how to help, I wanted you to know that I'm so sorry that you're having to deal with this.


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## cwag

I'm sorry that you are dealing with this. No advice but I will say if anyone can find a solution for this and do the work to fix it; I have confidence it is you.


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## nolefan

Please don't let them be together anymore, even with supervision. I'd have one locked up like alcatraz at all times. Everytime this happens it will reinforce the bad blood between them and it's risk the smaller dog is killed. 

Member Directory « ACVB I'd be calling someone off this list. It is worth traveling for.


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## Rambo's mom

First of all, I am so sorry to read this.
My next door neighbors were having the same nightmare as you. They have two Springer Spaniel dogs, who really were the sweetest dogs,......until the three year old started attacking the one year old for no discernible reason. They had to keep the dogs separated, which was hard in a house with three generations of people and four dogs. They had the 3 year old neutered , no change. They had the 1 year old neutered, again no change. They kept the dogs apart or the older one muzzled. There were no behaviorists close by to call on, they were at their wit's end. You know the nightmare. 

The Vet prescribed Prozac for the three year old as a last result. They kept him muzzled for a week or two, monitoring him. There was a change almost immediately. It's been four months now, and there hasn't been a single issue. The dogs are best buddies again and the house has finally returned to normal.

I don't know if this will work for Max and Puffy. I wanted you to know that at least for this family there was a happy ending.


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## Sweet Girl

I'm so sorry to hear this, too. I have no advice, but am going to be following this thread to see what happens. I really hope both the neutering and behaviorist can help. This must be so hard on all of you.


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## kellyguy

I am so sorry to hear this. I have no advice on how you can fix this, and it may not even be possible without medication. What I would urge you to consider is muzzling both of them and keeping them apart until you do have both of them evaluated by an expert. They may both never intentionally bite a human but in the middle of a dog fight their brains are on auto pilot and even an accidental bite history can doom an otherwise wonderful dog.


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## my4goldens

I can't imagine living like this. I have had various combinations over the years of dogs, currently have three males, two neutered, one intact. Never experienced anything like you are going thru. No real advice other than what you have been given, but if these were my dogs they would both be neutered ASAP, keep them separated for the time being to give them some breathing room and for everybody's sanity and safety, and contact a behaviorist. Good luck.


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## murphy1

Awful for poor Puffy!!! Max needs his boys removed first thing tomorrow. Get some gates and keep them apart.


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## joro32000

I sympathize with you as I am in the same situation with my two not neutered goldens. 

4 years ago we brought home a 9 year old rescue golden Sheffy, chained to a tree for most of his life. From day one Sheffy and Gatsby didn’t get along, but the first few encounters weren’t that bad. Over the next few months the fights escalated and the dogs had to be permanently separated. 

For 4 years now we live in this awkward arrangement that we need to be very careful which doors are open. Thankfully we have a separate 2 bedroom suite so Sheffy lives there. 

In the first year, we still had a hope we could resolve the issues with a help from trainers, behaviorists. After a few meetings all of them declined any future sessions. Pretty much they all said, neutering will not help, it may take years to resolve the issues and there is no guarantee the fights will ever stop.

The fights between Gatsby and Sheffy were rather serious. My husband ended up twice in a hospital requiring number of stitches (when he tried to separate them). When he went to a hospital for the second time he lied to a doctor about the nature of his injuries for a fear that animal control may take the dogs away from us. The first time he went to a hospital, he was honest about his hand injury and the animal control came into our house, requested a quarantine for 10 days. They would show up at our doors every morning and evening for all 10 days. They couldn’t believe either Gatsby or Sheffy were capable of attacking as individually they are super friendly not only with people, but also with other dogs, even not neutered ones. Both Gatsby and Sheffy are fine with our other golden Rufus who is Gatsby's best pal. In one of the fights Gatsby got Sheffy by the neck, biting artery, causing massive internal bleeding and swelling requiring a surgery. In the second episode I was holding Gatsby as he was the one to inflict the wounds on Sheffy the first time, but this time around Sheffy went for Gatsby eye, who required stitches, and many specialist visits as initially the vet said he may go blind in this eye as he had some eye detachment.

After these 2 fights Gatsby and Sheffy have been separated permanently and they haven’t seen each other for around three years except for one encounter about a year ago. Due to our miscommunication Gatsby and Sheffy met eye to eye on a driveway. When we realized both dogs are outside, standing next to each other, I called Gatsby calmly to come to me and to my surprise he trotted my way as if nothing happened. Maybe he thought it was too good to be true to see his worst enemy up close after such a long time and he didn’t believe his eyes or his scent? 

I hope you will find a better resolution to Max and Puffy aggression than me.


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## mylissyk

nolefan said:


> Please don't let them be together anymore, even with supervision. I'd have one locked up like alcatraz at all times. Everytime this happens it will reinforce the bad blood between them and it's risk the smaller dog is killed.
> 
> Member Directory « ACVB I'd be calling someone off this list. It is worth traveling for.


I just wanted to second this. These dogs need to be completely separated, at least until you can get some professional help with changing their interaction.


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## mylissyk

nolefan said:


> Please don't let them be together anymore, even with supervision. I'd have one locked up like alcatraz at all times. Everytime this happens it will reinforce the bad blood between them and it's risk the smaller dog is killed.
> 
> Member Directory « ACVB I'd be calling someone off this list. It is worth traveling for.


I just wanted to second this. These dogs need to be completely separated, at least until you can get some professional help with changing their interaction.

I hope you weren't hurt too badly.


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## ceegee

I'm sorry you're going through this - it's a tough one. Hope you find a workable solution.

I second the suggestion of using muzzles in the meantime. I have a cat-owning friend with an animal-aggressive dog, and she puts a basket muzzle on the dog when he's with the cats at home. It works. Another idea would be to have both dogs wear a short cord (2') attached to their collars, so it gives you something to grab hold of and separate them when they fight - which they might do, even if wearing muzzles.


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## sophieanne

I'm sorry you're going through this; it sounds hard for everyone in the family. When my dogs many years ago had a fight (after my older dog saw red), it was suggested we keep an "Air Horn" can close by in case a serious fight broke out. Apparently dogs do not like that very loud sound and will stop what they're doing. Also make sure humans plug their ears - it makes a very loud, horrible noise. I just checked and it's in the same spot where it was 11 years ago and never used. Fortunately they worked their issue out.
I agree a neuter for the two of them is in order and hopefully will work with some behavior therapy. You've known Puffy a while and know that he really had to have reached the breaking point (which you did write); Max needs a serious lesson in loving his neighbour. I hope everything works out for your family (humans and dogs).


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## KKaren

Hey Alphadude, Just wanted to add my support for you and your family as you work through this with Max and Puffy. I'm sorry this has occurred and hope that a solution will be found.


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## Yaichi's Mom

AD, I am beyond sad to read what is going on between Puffy and Max.....all I can say I OMG and ****!! 

I am sure this is devastating for you, your family and specifically after the beyond devastating loss of your heart dog Ax :crying:...my heart goes out to you big time.

I have always been a one dog family, therefore I can't give you any suggestions or advice with the situation you are facing...wish that I could.

You have been given some good advice in the posts above for those who have had similar situation and experience.

What I am able to share with you is my experience with 2 of my cats, brother and sister who co-existed/were born in my home for many years, with a dog, kids, etc. 

One day , out of the blue, after liking each other, grooming and sleeping with one another, all hell broke loose. They were in the "red zone" out to kill one another. They were both "neutered" a long time ago so I doubt that hormones were at play and they were of opposite "sex". 

I have no idea of what happened or why and tried everything to re-integrate them however it was not to be. They lived for the rest of their lives after all I could do with one living upstairs and the other downstairs.

I talked to our DVM, read articles, so did our vet. They suggested I put them on Prozac which I had never done with any animal companion in my life, however I did not know what else to do so I tried it. It made things worse and in retrospect I think it may have been because this drug altered their natural state and made them more anxious.

I write this as someone else posted that drugs like Prozac solved an issue similar to what you are facing. 

Guess my point is, if you decide to try drugs like Prozac, it could make it worse, as it was in my case with felines ( and of course another species)...BIG caution here.

I do agree though with what others have posted, you cannot have them together anyway, no how, right now, even if you are right beside them. The "red zone" is just that. 


Sending you and your family, and of course Puffy, Max and Jack as resolution to a very difficult and sad situation ...with many hugs. and wishes for a resolution for the dogs and your family :--heart:


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## alphadude

Thanks everyone for the support and the suggestions.

I kept them completely separated today - no incidents. 

Just to clarify a few things, I have not been injured at all. I apparently became quite adept at breaking up dog fights without getting badly injured through years of practice on my adventures with Ax.

Neither of the dogs have been seriously injured (yet). They have inflicted some ugly, painful looking wounds on each other, but nothing we couldn't patch up here at home. My wife is a nurse specializing in wound care, so that comes in handy.

There are no plans to let them interact further at this point. The situation seems to be getting progressively worse instead of better, so until we come up with some sort of a remedy, the most I'm willing to allow is leashed contact, out of biting range to test the waters.

I tried a muzzle on Max last night, (not the cage type) and he got out of it in about 6 seconds so no help there. I may try the 'hannibal lechter' style, but I have to determine that it is escape proof first. Of course, Puffy will need one also so he doesn't make use of his advantage and attack Max when he is unable to fight back.

I have to say that this is really a drag as well as a major PITA and I don't view separation as a long term solution, so I guess it's incumbent upon me to "fix" this. I fancy myself to be a fairly astute dog handler. My methods may be somewhat unorthodox, but until now, they have been effective, so I guess it's time to either put up or shut up.

I really don't want to be forced to re-home either of them. How could I send Puffy away after almost 6 years. He's an uncoordinated, half lame, lazy, loveable spaz, but I feel a great sense of loyalty to him. On the other hand there's Max who is, truth be told, "as advertised" and has shown glimpses of being exactly what I wanted despite him being a little "sparrow fart". He's apparently got the "big attitude" I sought, but lacks the ability to back it up that Ax had...in SPADES. In street terminology, Max is a "poser". I know this sounds terrible, but I can't help but think that if he mopped the floor with Puffy *once*, and made him totally submit, this might be over, but he lacks the "juice" to do so.

I was also hoping Jack might step up because frankly, from appearances alone, he* should* by all rights be able to easily knock the snot out of either Max _or_ Puffy. He just doesn't have that in him though, he is a true submissive.

I'm going to call the vet tomorrow and discuss getting one or both snipped straight away. 

Stay tuned for updates.


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## golfgal

Yikes. I do not envy you. A friend has five dogs and lives with his house gated off as the one dog as seriously injured two of the other dogs. Prefers that to giving the dog attacking away. How are your building skills. Can you build separate living areas for them? (just joking). 

I have no words of wisdom or advice to offer. A listening 'ear' and cyber hugs is about all that I can offer.


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## jennretz

AD - Jax is being smart, not submissive. Most dogs do not want trouble and in order to survive it’s what most dogs do. Jax is showing very appropriate (and commendable) dog behavior. Puffy is feeling threatened and responding with aggression, I am thinking out of fear. I’m not an expert though. I do believe the incumbent dog should have an expectation of feeling safe. The dynamic changed with Max it appears. That doesn’t mean Puffy won’t proactively attack now. I do not think Max is Ax and I do not think letting Max beat up would have been the answer. You need an experienced trainer for this IMHO. And I really hope that Puupy is never up for rehoming. He didn’t ask for Max to join the family. And he’s had to deal with being attacked since Max got big enough. Puffy never wanted trouble before. Now he feels like he has to handle this. It’s a bad situation as you know. Most people would need help from an experienced trainer in this situation. I fear a dominant approach will be like fuel on the fire.


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## murphy1

I'm not an expert but wouldn't neutering both be a big help?


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## mylissyk

alphadude said:


> .... I know this sounds terrible, but I can't help but think that if he mopped the floor with Puffy *once*, and made him totally submit, this might be over, but he lacks the "juice" to do so.
> 
> I was also hoping Jack might step up because frankly, from appearances alone, he* should* by all rights be able to easily knock the snot out of either Max _or_ Puffy. He just doesn't have that in him though, he is a true submissive.
> 
> I'm going to call the vet tomorrow and discuss getting one or both snipped straight away.
> 
> Stay tuned for updates.


This absolutely is NOT the solution. First, you said Max is attacking Puffy unprovoked, so how would him beating Puffy up settle anything? You don't want Puffy really injured anyway, and he has every right to defend himself.

True Alpha dogs DO NOT enforce their position with violence. They enforce with body language and dog to dog communication, that rarely if ever includes a fight, which the other dog understands and respects. 

Starting fights is a big sign of insecurity, not confidence. 

If your typical approach is to meet aggression with your own form of "aggression" thinking to stop it, I can pretty much tell you it will backfire.

I absolutely agree with jennretz that Jack is being smart and avoiding conflict, not being submissive. And I also agree that you need help from a professional who has experience dealing with housemate aggression. 

None of these dogs are Axle. Nowhere close, in any way, whether it's athletic ability, behavior, personality, or whatever. I am not trying to be harsh, but you need to stop comparing any of them to him. 

Ask your vet for a referral to a certified veterinary behaviorist. They should know who is in the area, or know where to direct you to find one.


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## my4goldens

mylissyk said:


> This absolutely is NOT the solution. First, you said Max is attacking Puffy unprovoked, so how would him beating Puffy up settle anything? You don't want Puffy really injured anyway, and he has every right to defend himself.
> 
> True Alpha dogs DO NOT enforce their position with violence. They enforce with body language and dog to dog communication, that rarely if ever includes a fight, which the other dog understands and respects.
> 
> 
> mylissyk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with all of this. The thought of letting one dog beat up another dog until one of them comes out victorious makes me shudder. My Tess who has been gone now for six years was the alpha of the four dogs I had at the time, but not once in her 11 years did she ever attack another dog. She could however, with a curl of her lip or a glance remind the others that she was the boss. And she always knew the the true alpha in the house was me. I will never forget how she trained my daughter's obnoxious male shih tzu puppy to knock off the humping. He did it once, she moved quickly and got him off of her. He tried it again, she whirled around, pinned him with one foot and held him there for a moment. He got up and never tried it again.
Click to expand...


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## alphadude

murphy1 said:


> I'm not an expert but wouldn't neutering both be a big help?


We'll likely find out Murph.


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## Anele

I am just devastated to hear this. You are one the heroes on the forum, able to solve just about any issue. If these dogs were in a different home together, much worse might have happened already.

Since you are going to work with a vet behaviorist, I'd hold off on neutering. It's so hard to know if it will solve the problem, make no difference, or potentially worsen it. Since Max sounds like he has a confidence problem, there's a chance it could increase after neutering. (Think about dogs in rescues who have serious dog aggression... they are all neutered.) Puffy has been fine all along as an intact male.

I'm so very sorry it has reached this point. From my selfish POV, I worry about the same issue developing in time with my dogs. Right now we don't have problems, but my younger male is only 6 months old.


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## alphadude

mylissyk said:


> This absolutely is NOT the solution. First, you said Max is attacking Puffy unprovoked, so how would him beating Puffy up settle anything? You don't want Puffy really injured anyway, and he has every right to defend himself.
> 
> True Alpha dogs DO NOT enforce their position with violence. They enforce with body language and dog to dog communication, that rarely if ever includes a fight, which the other dog understands and respects.
> 
> Starting fights a big sign of insecurity, not confidence.
> 
> If your typical approach is to meet aggression with your own form of "aggression" thinking to stop it, I can pretty much tell you it will backfire.
> 
> I absolutely agree with jennretz that Jack is being smart and avoiding conflict, not being submissive. And I also agree that you need help from a professional who has experience dealing with housemate aggression.
> 
> None of these dogs are Axle. Nowhere close, in anyway, whether it's athletic ability, behavior, personality, or whatever. I am not trying to be harsh, but you need to stop comparing any of them to him.
> 
> Ask your vet for a referral to a certified veterinary behaviorist. They should know who is in the area, or know where to direct you to find one.


Mylissyk,

My preference is always for there to zero violence involved, PERIOD. I would never want poor Puffy injured and the same goes for Max and Jack as well. Puffy absolutely has every right to defend himself but I believe it is my responsibility to provide a safe environment for him so he does not have to do so.

Trust me, I am well familiar with the behavior of Alpha dogs, even though if I had $5 for every "dog expert" that told me "there was no such thing" ("that theory was disproved in the 90's") I could retire. My beliefs are based on *my* personal observations, not what I've read in a book. 

I *NEVER* saw Axl attack another dog unprovoked or start a fight. Quite the contrary, he couldn't give a rat's posterior what any other dog nearby was doing and he minded his own business - completely aloof. I KNOW the difference between a fearful, insecure, dog and an Alpha. They could NOT be more stark. If dogs approached him, he was relaxed and at ease doing the sniffing ritual. In the majority of instances, that was the end of it, he and the other dog simply went their separate ways with zero unpleasantness. The problems only occurred if the other dog started to display a dominant posture, invaded his space in a threatening way by putting their heads over his head or back, growled at himr cardinal sin #1 attempted to mount him, or just flat out attacked him, which happened lots of times. A rottie jumped him with when he was trotting back to me with a disc in his mouth so I really don't think he initiating anything. Ax was the least insecure dog I have ever seen. Back in December of 2015, I took him to a gathering of golden retrievers set up by a group I am part of on FB. There were at least 25 goldens present and there wasn't even a hint of a problem or aggression. He did his disc thing, swam and we had an all around fantastic time. He basically took them all to school doing water retrieves...even the self proclaimed 2 year old "water retrieve champion of NJ" 8 year old Ax at the time, made her look slow and silly. lol

Definitely not my preferred course of action to meet aggression with more aggression because I know that can cause a feedback loop resulting only in increased aggression. That said however, when I have 95 lb dog and a 70 lb dog engaged in a seeming fight to the death, there is no kinder, gentler way to break that up. Tired water, tried noise, tried the wheelbarrow maneuver, *ALL* completely ineffective. I am nothing if not a pragmatist. I employ methods that work. 

When Jack was introduced to the household, (before we brought Max home) for the first 24 hours he was crated and Puffy circled the cage and seemingly wanted to maul him. The next day, I let them interact on neutral ground, Jack IMMEDIATELY submitted, laying on his back and they were happily play fighting 2 minutes later. Not a problem since. 

Your words are not being taken as harsh, I am completely fine with constructive criticism. 

Lastly, I am not comparing any of the 3 to Axl, there is simply NO comparison. I am *painfully aware* that the extraordinary blend of qualities he possessed was extremely rare - especially for a golden, and would not be duplicated if I had 100 more dogs. Max has the potential to be a nice dog with some drive and some athletic ability, He's got some attitude to go along with it as well. He can even be a serviceable disc dog which is what I really want when all is said and done. Perhaps as time passes he will turn out great, but trust me, I *know* there was only 1 Axl.

I am going to speak to a vet this afternoon and am currently researching behaviorists in the area.


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## mylissyk

alphadude said:


> Mylissyk,
> 
> My preference is always for there to zero violence involved, PERIOD. I would never want poor Puffy injured and the same goes for Max and Jack as well. Puffy absolutely has every right to defend himself but I believe it is my responsibility to provide a safe environment for him so he does not have to do so.
> 
> Trust me, I am well familiar with the behavior of Alpha dogs, even though if I had $5 for every "dog expert" that told me "there was no such thing" ("that theory was disproved in the 90's") I could retire. My beliefs are based on *my* personal observations, not what I've read in a book.
> 
> I *NEVER* saw Axl attack another dog unprovoked or start a fight. Quite the contrary, he couldn't give a rat's posterior what any other dog nearby was doing and he minded his own business - completely aloof. I KNOW the difference between a fearful, insecure, dog and an Alpha. They could NOT be more stark. If dogs approached him, he was relaxed and at ease doing the sniffing ritual. In the majority of instances, that was the end of it, he and the other dog simply went their separate ways with zero unpleasantness. The problems only occurred if the other dog started to display a dominant posture, invaded his space in a threatening way by putting their heads over his head or back, growled at himr cardinal sin #1 attempted to mount him, or just flat out attacked him, which happened lots of times. A rottie jumped him with when he was trotting back to me with a disc in his mouth so I really don't think he initiating anything. Ax was the least insecure dog I have ever seen. Back in December of 2015, I took him to a gathering of golden retrievers set up by a group I am part of on FB. There were at least 25 goldens present and there wasn't even a hint of a problem or aggression. He did his disc thing, swam and we had an all around fantastic time. He basically took them all to school doing water retrieves...even the self proclaimed 2 year old "water retrieve champion of NJ" 8 year old Ax at the time, made her look slow and silly. lol
> 
> Definitely not my preferred course of action to meet aggression with more aggression because I know that can cause a feedback loop resulting only in increased aggression. That said however, when I have 95 lb dog and a 70 lb dog engaged in a seeming fight to the death, there is no kinder, gentler way to break that up. Tired water, tried noise, tried the wheelbarrow maneuver, *ALL* completely ineffective. I am nothing if not a pragmatist. I employ methods that work.
> 
> When Jack was introduced to the household, (before we brought Max home) for the first 24 hours he was crated and Puffy circled the cage and seemingly wanted to maul him. The next day, I let them interact on neutral ground, Jack IMMEDIATELY submitted, laying on his back and they were happily play fighting 2 minutes later. Not a problem since.
> 
> Your words are not being taken as harsh, I am completely fine with constructive criticism.
> 
> Lastly, I am not comparing any of the 3 to Axl, there is simply NO comparison. I am *painfully aware* that the extraordinary blend of qualities he possessed was extremely rare - especially for a golden, and would not be duplicated if I had 100 more dogs. Max has the potential to be a nice dog with some drive and some athletic ability, He's got some attitude to go along with it as well. He can even be a serviceable disc dog which is what I really want when all is said and done. Perhaps as time passes he will turn out great, but trust me, I *know* there was only 1 Axl.
> 
> I am going to speak to a vet this afternoon and am currently researching behaviorists in the area.


Agree 100%. 

I wish those pet physics were real so you could have one talk to Max to find out what he's thinking, and also let him know he's got such a great home with you he really needs to straighten up and appreciate it. 

I don't mean to joke at all. None of this is funny, it's breaking my heart for all of you.


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## alphadude

Found some pics of that day in December of 2015 at Round Rock Reservoir. One woman there was so impressed with Ax she took a bunch of pics of him with her telephoto DSLR...

The last pic is Puffy giving comfort to Axl a few days before he died...and I will *always* remember that. 

You can see his muscular body was completely wasted away, skin and bones and his belly was bloated.


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## Yaichi's Mom

AD, I have nothing much to add other than I know and trust that Puffy, Jack and Max are in the best of hands, knowing that you will do all you can do and beyond to ensure the best positive outcome possible.

I hope that you have a great DVM, who's opinion, background and experience you can trust and one who will work with you. your boys and your family. That said, trust your instincts as no-one knows your pups better than you do. 

I am beyond sorry that you are facing this serious. stressful and dangerous situation.

Sending love, light and positive outcomes your way...hugs from Brisby and i.


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## jennretz

Wonderful photos; especially that last one


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## sophieanne

That was a wonderful picture of Puffy with Axl. I'm always aware when one of my dogs is giving comfort/attention to the other. It is the one way I'm aware of something I may be missing. They know more about each other than we do. Good luck getting your situation resolved; I hope it's quick. For everyone's sake.


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## alphadude

mylissyk said:


> Agree 100%.
> 
> I wish those pet physics were real so you could have one talk to Max to find out what he's thinking, and also let him know he's got such a great home with you he really needs to straighten up and appreciate it.
> 
> I don't mean to joke at all. None of this is funny, it's breaking my heart for all of you.


I'll treat it as much needed comic relief.


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## GoldenCamper

You'll figure it out.


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## GoldenCamper

You can do this turd blossom  Wait until you see 2 alpha girls go at it. Your post doesn't compare to 2 alpha queens.


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## GoldenCamper

1st dibs on Puffy


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## puddles everywhere

I'm so sorry for the turmoil going on in your home. I've seen this so many times, even with neutered dogs so not sure this will resolve your issue. Axel sounds like a wonderful dog but despite the age, this was your "CEO" dog. Now that he is gone and Max is coming into his own, well sharing position for head dog causes lots of problems.

Strangers (mainly me) offering you advice is nothing more than opinion on experiences of the past. Getting a behaviorist into your home where they can see the dynamics of how the ENTIRE family... you included, works together needs to happen.

While I probably suffer from lack of people skills I have no problem setting boundaries with the pups. Keeping balance takes practice and picking up on body language and timed corrections takes time. You need a new CEO 

I hope you can find someone that can help you pick up on what's going on. The dynamics are off and an outsider will be able to see something you might be missing.


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## alphadude

GoldenCamper said:


> 1st dibs on Puffy


LOL I always envisioned him playing out the string with Newfiemom since she loves him so much, especially after she very sadly lost Griff, if I ever needed to re-home him. I'll put you on the short list GC. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. Would break my heart as well as my wife's. Puffy is a good dog who was dealt a CRAP hand to start with being born with bad hips, knees, and legs. I wish I could find the BYB I got him from because I'd show him Axl wasn't the only 'alpha dog' in this family. He dropped off the radar a month or so after we got Puffy. Believe me, I have an eye out for him and he *won't* enjoy it if I find him.


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## alphadude

Update:

Went to Petco last night to get some cage muzzles and had a long and detailed conversation with a young man studying to be a behaviorist. Now of course, I don't take everything he said as gospel, but he did offer some insights that I consider useful. He also recommended several behaviorists (not affiliated with Petco in any way) all holding according to him phd's. They will be properly vetted by me - you can count on that. I am also in the process of shopping for a new vet.

Anyway, I decided to try a little experiment this afternoon...

I let just Puffy outside for 15 minutes to get settled and calm. I then let Max out and he ran right by him and was happily playing with my daughter Christina. All was good for a minute or two until Puffy deliberately sought Max out and postured, Max took his stance, and I (two feet away and on hair trigger) went to grab Max, but Puffy struck first. I was able to separate them before they got a death grip on each other this time, it was downright easy. Maybe I'm just getting good from all the practice. In any event, I wrestled Puffy away, leashed and dragged him in the house. Christina had Max by the collar and he stayed outside seemingly unfazed like nothing happened (reminiscent of another dog of mine after a fight) and continued playing. Puffy is very restless in the bedroom whining and pacing. I'm beginning to think Puffy may be a bigger part of the problem than I first thought. Then again, it could mean nothing. 

I am actually thinking of perhaps sacrificing Puffy's family jewels FIRST since he's going on 6 anyway, full grown, and already has bad hips and legs. Sound logic???


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## Siandvm

I would hold off on neutering either of them until you have had them evaluated by a veterinary behaviorist (not just a PhD, but a fully qualified veterinarian who has done a residency in behavior and is a board certified specialist). That will be the BEST option to advise you on how neutering might affect their dynamic. It might actually make it worse, depending on the cause of this aggression. It is certainly possible that hormones are an issue, especially given Max’s age, but it may have progressed from that (if it ever was that) — just look at your thoughts that Puffy may be more of a problem than you had originally thought. 

It will almost certainly be the case that a trainer or non-veterinary behaviorist will be a helpful part of the team, and the vet behaviorist my very well recommend this, but I must stress how important it is to have someone who is versed in both the medical and behavioral aspects of aggression advise you. Also keep in mind that it will take some time (a couple of months comes to mind, but I would have to check to be sure) for the hormones to dissipate after a neuter, so it won’t be a silver bullet if you do it right away. 

Finally, other than perhaps to get representative videos for the people you enlist to help you, I cannot possibly stress enough how important it is that you not let them interact/fight any more. Every time they do this it is reinforcing the behavior (not that you are reinforcing the behavior, the behavior is reinforcing the behavior) and possibly changing motivations and making the whole thing much more difficult to address. Perhaps it started with hormone related aggression from Max. Perhaps with repeated incidents Puffy is developing fear aggression and is preemptively striking. Perhaps not. I have no idea because I am not there. I do know that it is a possibility and I would much rather deal with hormone related aggression with a little strategic snipping than deal with a dog who is aggressive from a place of fear.


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## alphadude

GoldenCamper said:


> You can do this turd blossom  Wait until you see 2 alpha girls go at it. Your post doesn't compare to 2 alpha queens.


I've heard female fights can be more viscous, but believe me, I've seen some REALLY nasty action from an alpha male in his day, but he was an assassin. He completely humiliated and rendered helpless a 140 lb rottie that attacked him (with a disc in his mouth) in the time it took me to run 100 feet or so. I know a little bit about dog fighting dynamics and when they go for the back of the neck and violently try to rip back and forth they are literally trying to *kill* their opponent. Ax was a very friendly dog, but when he needed it, he had a mean streak 7 miles wide, in addition to the skills and "stones" to back it up. When I finally ripped Ax off him, the rottie (that was screaming like a baby) took off like a shot and *NEVER* looked back.


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## sophieanne

I am no expert, but I would let a qualified vet make the decision about who/when, etc. The only thing that keeps going through my mind is that getting neutered who be painful for a 6 year old dog. I know you will make the right decision for your 2 boys.


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## laprincessa

please don't blame Puffy for this
He's been attacked and he's scared
Of course he's going to strike first if he can
Please keep them apart, this is not something you should be taking ANY chances with - and you know that so why am I even having to say it?
You know I respect you but I've been reading this thread for days and expecting the worst - Puffy is going to be seriously injured. 
And if NewfieMom won't take him, I'm second on the list.


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## murphy1

I sure hope I misunderstood one of AD's posts. If anyone should be re-homed if this cannot be rectified, it should be Max. Puffy has been with you for far too long and it would be very unfair. Tell me I'm wrong?


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## jennretz

Siandvm has posted some great advice. A certified Vetrinary behaviorist is needed here. And while I seriously hope you were jesting about Puffy being rehomed, I would be on your list to take him. I think he is striking out of fear; this is not a situation he created. But he is no longer trusting his humans to protect him from some pretty rude behavior from Max (as it sounds, but I’m not there).

My fearful guy is neutered but I still am careful with his interactions with other dogs. I’m not sure neutering will solve the problem. This has to be intervened. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rabernet

alphadude said:


> Update:
> 
> I am actually thinking of perhaps sacrificing Puffy's family jewels FIRST since he's going on 6 anyway, full grown, and already has bad hips and legs. Sound logic???


I've heard (and seen) that neutered males actually seem to hone in on and target intact males - so it may actually make Puffy respond even worse. 

I'd meet with a behaviorist before I'd make any decision.


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## Vika the Golden !

I have been reading this thread for the past few days and feel terrible about this situation. I strongly believe that having them both fixed could help them calm down ! 

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## Helo's Mom

I have one experience to share. My boy Leo was neutered when he was young. He was the most loving dog. Loved everyone, people and other dogs. One day an intact young yellow lab followed me home from a walk (I was walking one of my female dogs at the time, Leo was at home). I put the yellow lab in the back yard and proceeded to call animal control to come and get him. He was playing with my 2 female dogs and they were all having a great time. I let Leo out of the house (he was 11 years old at the time) and he promptly went ballistic, barking and growling at the intruder. I was shocked. He'd never acted aggressive to any dog in his life and he'd been around a lot of dogs.(Including other stray male dogs who were neutered). I don't know if he was trying to protect "his" females from this intact male or what the story was but I escorted him in the house before a fight could ensue. I was protecting him because he was old and sick at the time yet very much telling that dog off. Just food for thought. I always follow you and your pack and feel terrible about what's going on. I hope you find some answers on how to fix this situation.


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## alphadude

rabernet said:


> I've heard (and seen) that neutered males actually seem to hone in on and target intact males - so it may actually make Puffy respond even worse.
> 
> I'd meet with a behaviorist before I'd make any decision.


I have heard that as well Robin.


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## alphadude

laprincessa said:


> please don't blame Puffy for this
> He's been attacked and he's scared
> Of course he's going to strike first if he can
> Please keep them apart, this is not something you should be taking ANY chances with - and you know that so why am I even having to say it?
> You know I respect you but I've been reading this thread for days and expecting the worst - Puffy is going to be seriously injured.
> And if NewfieMom won't take him, I'm second on the list.


Relax everyone, Puffy isn't going anywhere...except to the Vet to get checked out and possibly neutered. Just a little levity.

I completely get why he feels he needs to take the initiative. I felt like I needed to try and let them interact outside and see if they could co-exist. I was right there on top of the situation and I would have been able to stop it before it started (the plan) except I grabbed the wrong dog (Max) and Puffy launched the attack. I had them apart in 2 seconds, no injuries, no blood. Was a very mild incident compared to recent events. 

I also wanted to test out a theory a 'behaviorist in training' floated the other night. As previously stated, my wife and I had a detailed discussion with this guy and his contention was that there is ALWAYS a trigger whether we as humans perceive it or not. After hearing all of the information we conveyed to him he came up with the idea that my wife was possibly the trigger since she was always present and in close proximity every time a fight started. Two intact males perceived her as their "bitch" and were in effect fighting over a high value 'resource'. We know Puffy thinks she's his 'girl' from the amount of unwanted 'attention' he bestows on her. Frankly, it *wasn't* the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They had never done that when she *wasn't present*. They had never had a brawl when it was just me there. Yesterday, I intentionally did this before my wife got home from work. I had my daughter out there with me. So much for that theory, thoroughly debunked. I was actually hoping he was right because then I could just get rid of Mary, solve the issue, and keep all the dogs - talk about a *WIN-WIN!!! * Again,* LEVITY* folks, before anyone flames me. lol

One other issue I would like to clarify...neither dog has been seriously harmed thus far and I have no intention of letting that happen. They are being totally segregated. Their wounds have been mostly superficial, easily disinfected and treated, and don't appear to bother either of them at all. Truth be told, after Friday night's brawl, when Mary and I were checking Puffy for damage and treating his wounds, he helped himself to some potato chips that were close at hand, playfully yanked a towel from her, and for good measure then attempted to hump her. This all took place less than 3 minutes after "Friday night Raw" so I don't think he was feeling that "punk".

I think Puffy actually has a super power, I'm not at all sure that he has the ability to feel physical pain. His coat is so thick it affords him very good protection. Even his ears are like slabs of leather....easily twice the thickness of Max's or Ax's were for that matter. I have never even heard him squeal in pain since he was a puppy and his skull is seemingly made of concrete.


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## ceegee

rabernet said:


> I've heard (and seen) that neutered males actually seem to hone in on and target intact males - so it may actually make Puffy respond even worse.


I'm currently experiencing this with my 2-year-old un-neutered male who is as gentle as they come. There are some neutered males that just dislike him. One in particular, a neutered border collie that belongs to an agility colleague, hates him with a passion and would, IMHO, do some serious damage to him if the opportunity arose. I make sure I'm never out on the off-leash trails at the same time as that dog.

Aggression is a complex problem and I agree that advice from trained experts who can actually observe the interactions in person is probably the way to go. In situations like this, it's not always the "obvious" candidate who's responsible for the aggression. Someone who hasn't seen the dogs interacting can't possibly say that one or the other is to "blame". And it's entirely up to Alphadude to decide how he will deal with the situation once it's been diagnosed. If he eventually decides to place one or other of the dogs elsewhere, that's his choice to make. It would clearly be a gut-wrenching outcome, and it's not fair to make an awful situation worse for him by telling him what he "should" do or suggesting that one choice is "better" than another.

To Alphadude: I hope you're able to find someone to help you with this. I'm very sorry you're having to deal with it, and am keeping my fingers, toes and everything else crossed for a positive outcome. And thank you for documenting the situation too: your posts will be very helpful for others who may experience the same thing in the future. I wish you good luck.

.


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## Gleepers

I’ve been following along. 
We have recently had some tension at our house too. 
Penny the golden vs Ted the 25lb mutt. Neither dog has an ounce of natural dominance in them. They are both fixed and a month apart in age. They are just shy of turning 2. 
Ted has some guarding issues with high value items, mostly food. Luckily full on fights have been rare and so far no blood. 
The last one apparently was pretty bad as usually a couple hours in the crate has been enough to chill everyone out but not that time. They went around with stink eyes and warning growls at each other for several days. Had to watch them like hawks. What helped was some serious and a lot of tandom training sessions. Eventually they calmed down, though Ted still seems to be a bit more assertive than he was. 

I think your issue may have progressed past where my version of quick fix would work. It very well may have started with your wife as the trigger, but after to many serious scuffles it sounds like they are just now generally pissed at each other. 

I’ll be interested to hear what the behaviorist has to say. Perhaps Ill be able to pick up a few ideas for my world going forward. 

One other thought. Post neuter/spay it took about a month for the hormones to work their way out. In that time they were noticeably more on edge and just generally “off” around each other. (They were done at different times)


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## alphadude

Gleepers said:


> I’ve been following along.
> We have recently had some tension at our house too.
> Penny the golden vs Ted the 25lb mutt. Neither dog has an ounce of natural dominance in them. They are both fixed and a month apart in age. They are just shy of turning 2.
> Ted has some guarding issues with high value items, mostly food. Luckily full on fights have been rare and so far no blood.
> The last one apparently was pretty bad as usually a couple hours in the crate has been enough to chill everyone out but not that time. They went around with stink eyes and warning growls at each other for several days. Had to watch them like hawks. What helped was some serious and a lot of tandom training sessions. Eventually they calmed down, though Ted still seems to be a bit more assertive than he was.
> 
> I think your issue may have progressed past where my version of quick fix would work. It very well may have started with your wife as the trigger, but after to many serious scuffles it sounds like they are just now generally pissed at each other.
> 
> I’ll be interested to hear what the behaviorist has to say. Perhaps Ill be able to pick up a few ideas for my world going forward.
> 
> One other thought. Post neuter/spay it took about a month for the hormones to work their way out. In that time they were noticeably more on edge and just generally “off” around each other. (They were done at different times)


Sorry to hear of your issues as well. I think you are entirely correct that it has progressed beyond a simple fix. I also agree it *could* have started with Mary as the trigger but has progressed beyond that.

I am also aware that neutering is not an immediate fix and that they will not be in a good mood immediately thereafter. I know I wouldn't be. lol


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## rabernet

ceegee said:


> I'm currently experiencing this with my 2-year-old un-neutered male who is as gentle as they come. There are some neutered males that just dislike him. One in particular, a neutered border collie that belongs to an agility colleague, hates him with a passion and would, IMHO, do some serious damage to him if the opportunity arose. I make sure I'm never out on the off-leash trails at the same time as that dog.
> 
> Aggression is a complex problem and I agree that advice from trained experts who can actually observe the interactions in person is probably the way to go. In situations like this, it's not always the "obvious" candidate who's responsible for the aggression. Someone who hasn't seen the dogs interacting can't possibly say that one or the other is to "blame". And it's entirely up to Alphadude to decide how he will deal with the situation once it's been diagnosed. If he eventually decides to place one or other of the dogs elsewhere, that's his choice to make. It would clearly be a gut-wrenching outcome, and it's not fair to make an awful situation worse for him by telling him what he "should" do or suggesting that one choice is "better" than another.
> 
> To Alphadude: I hope you're able to find someone to help you with this. I'm very sorry you're having to deal with it, and am keeping my fingers, toes and everything else crossed for a positive outcome. And thank you for documenting the situation too: your posts will be very helpful for others who may experience the same thing in the future. I wish you good luck.
> 
> .


Noah had a horrible experience at a dog park about a year and a half ago. Maybe three dogs were there, but one was a Russian Shepard, also known as a Caucasian Shepard (essentially a mastiff), who was neutered and without warning (that I could tell), charged him, had him pinned and was going for his throat before the owner pulled him off. Noah and I booked it out of there and I thoroughly checked him over for any puncture wounds. Thankfully there were none, but it could have been so much worse. And this was the first time at this particular dog park, where the park was a mile hike from parking - I would not have been able to carry Noah for a mile had he been seriously injured. Well, with adrenaline pumping, I probably would have, truth be told. 

After that incident, we did go back to our regular dog park a few times, but I noticed a marked change in Noah. Dogs he knew, he was fine with. But as you know, dog park dynamics are constantly changing, and when dogs came in that he didn't know, he would posture with his head over their backs (a good offense is better than a good defense, I'm sure he was thinking). We would leave immediately before any fights could start. 

Shortly after that, we only went at 6 in the morning to meet his best friend when no one else was there, and would leave as soon as anyone else arrived. 

Now he has his own personal "dog park" (our back yard) and he's quite happy. I'm saddened though, that he had to go through that experience. I've become anti-dog parks as a result of that experience.


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## alphadude

rabernet said:


> Noah had a horrible experience at a dog park about a year and a half ago. Maybe three dogs were there, but one was a Russian Shepard, also known as a Caucasian Shepard (essentially a mastiff), who was neutered and without warning (that I could tell), charged him, had him pinned and was going for his throat before the owner pulled him off. Noah and I booked it out of there and I thoroughly checked him over for any puncture wounds. Thankfully there were none, but it could have been so much worse. And this was the first time at this particular dog park, where the park was a mile hike from parking - I would not have been able to carry Noah for a mile had he been seriously injured. Well, with adrenaline pumping, I probably would have, truth be told.
> 
> After that incident, we did go back to our regular dog park a few times, but I noticed a marked change in Noah. Dogs he knew, he was fine with. But as you know, dog park dynamics are constantly changing, and when dogs came in that he didn't know, he would posture with his head over their backs (a good offense is better than a good defense, I'm sure he was thinking). We would leave immediately before any fights could start.
> 
> Shortly after that, we only went at 6 in the morning to meet his best friend when no one else was there, and would leave as soon as anyone else arrived.
> 
> Now he has his own personal "dog park" (our back yard) and he's quite happy. I'm saddened though, that he had to go through that experience. I've become anti-dog parks as a result of that experience.


I am very ANTI dog parks. Sometimes you luck out and there are dogs that are cool in there. Other times not and that one negative experience can affect your dog for a lifetime. 

P.S. I'm betting if you had to carry Noah a mile you would *totally be able* to do so Robin.


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## golfgal

I know you will get the required help needed. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I can't help thinking about is that you've got a 5.5-6mth old puppy with hormones going agog. Yes he may be close in size to a mature dog but his brain isn't and he's still learning how to deal with life and the world. While there may be some asserting dominance by Puffy with the getting bigger puppy, I'm wondering if protecting Max shouldn't be up there too. 

Not intended to offend in anyway. I know you said they are not physically hurt, but there could be ramifications down the road. For what it's worth.


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## laprincessa

alphadude said:


> I am very ANTI dog parks. Sometimes you luck out and there are dogs that are cool in there. Other times not and that *one negative experience can affect your dog for a lifetime. *


And how many bad experiences has Puffy had? I don't think you're really grasping the enormity of letting them continue to interact badly - every single time they do, it's making more of an imprint on both of them. I know you think you can handle any situation, but honestly, this scares me. One of them is going to be seriously injured, or killed, and to what purpose? So you can prove a theory? Keep them apart, stop letting them interact AT ALL, and know that neutering is NOT going to fix this - it's a personality thing, not a hormone thing. It sounds to me - and I'm not in any way claiming to be an expert, because I'm not - but it sounds like Max needs to be an only dog. He may be the second greatest disc dog to ever live and the reincarntion of Axl but if he can't co-exist with the other dogs, then he shouldn't be allowed to be anywhere near them. 

And your wife is a saint, by the way - there's no way this kind of thing would be going on in my home!


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## alphadude

golfgal said:


> I know you will get the required help needed. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I can't help thinking about is that you've got a 5.5-6mth old puppy with hormones going agog. Yes he may be close in size to a mature dog but his brain isn't and he's still learning how to deal with life and the world. While there may be some asserting dominance by Puffy with the getting bigger puppy, I'm wondering if protecting Max shouldn't be up there too.
> 
> Not intended to offend in anyway. I know you said they are not physically hurt, but there could be ramifications down the road. For what it's worth.


No offense taken. Max is 14.5 going on 15 *months* old so he is the equivalent of a rambunctious teenage boy of about 15. Having once been exactly that, although it was decades ago, I remember vividly the surging testosterone.

I am doing my best to mitigate the situation in the best interests of *BOTH* of these guys...


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## alphadude

laprincessa said:


> And how many bad experiences has Puffy had? I don't think you're really grasping the enormity of letting them continue to interact badly - every single time they do, it's making more of an imprint on both of them. I know you think you can handle any situation, but honestly, this scares me. One of them is going to be seriously injured, or killed, and to what purpose? So you can prove a theory? Keep them apart, stop letting them interact AT ALL, and know that neutering is NOT going to fix this - it's a personality thing, not a hormone thing. It sounds to me - and I'm not in any way claiming to be an expert, because I'm not - but it sounds like Max needs to be an only dog. He may be the second greatest disc dog to ever live and the reincarntion of Axl but if he can't co-exist with the other dogs, then he shouldn't be allowed to be anywhere near them.
> 
> And your wife is a saint, by the way - there's no way this kind of thing would be going on in my home!


Puffy is a big loveable schmoo, that much is certain.

*However...*

Let's not canonize Puffster just yet. He has, in the past, had *more* than a few incidences of unprovoked aggression himself. Back in the summer of 2015, I saw him try to attack a small dog at the beach out of nowhere for no reason. I of course prevented him from doing that (by tackling him). I know I discussed that publicly on this forum. I can find the link if you like. 

Another instance occurred in late August of 2016 in my yard as Axl lay dying, a friend stopped by unannounced to "cheer me up" with his 10 week old golden pup. Puffy, for no reason at all, grabbed that poor puppy by the throat and shook it around like a chew toy so violently that fecal matter squirted out of it. I also remember posting publicly here about that incident.

A third instance goes back farther in time to not one, but 2 extremely viscous brawls he had with my neighbor's JRT that liked to try to dominate him despite being a fraction of his size and weight. I can't help but think that nimrod and his obnoxious little dog contributed to any aggression issues Puffy may have developed.

Let's not forget about the 'genius' Russian woman with the free roaming lab-sharpei mix that attacked *both* Axl and Puffy on separate occasions at my local beach. When 'Trey' attacked Ax, he went to the animal hospital bleeding like a stuck pig to get stitched up *(literally)*. In hind sight, I should have let Ax finish the job which he easily could have done, instead of pulling him off. I don't think I ever saw Ax as spitting mad as he was that day, he went absolutely ballistic! That dog was a menace that attacked at least 6 other dogs that I know of. When Trey attacked Puffy however, he pinned him to the ground on his back, by the throat, and *only* the fact that I ripped him off (getting a nasty bite on the hand from him in the process), body slammed to the ground, and physically restrained him, saved Puffy from being seriously injured or perhaps even killed - Trey was a *big, mean, untrained, VERY aggressive dog*. All his owner seemed capable of doing was wildly gesturing and producing idiotic mewling noises. I was totally incensed and I told her at the time that the next time Trey attacked a dog in my presence, he would not leave the scene still breathing. Apparently she understood enough English to comprehend what I said because I never saw him unleashed again so I guess I made my point. Lord knows, I posted here in exquisite detail about both of those incidents.

And while we're on the topic, you are correct, I DO in fact think I can handle any situation, and will continue to think so until proven otherwise.

Another example was the golden outing at Round Rock I was talking about above. I took ONLY Axl because I did not trust Puffy 100% not to get into a problem with another dog there. 

The point I am trying to convey, and yes there IS a point, is that Puffy has some issues of his very own despite being a big, half crippled, lovable, sympathetic figure 99% of the time. Honesty and frankness is what I do. 

What I am doing, is attempting to salvage this situation without having to consider re-homing either one of these *family members*. You said a couple of posts previous that you wanted to be #2 on the list to take Puffy in the event he needed to be re-homed. I couldn't in all honesty allow that because he *might* very well start attacking *your* Max and trust me when I tell you, you *don't* want that. Neither do I! I like you very much despite not knowing you personally other than from GRF, and wouldn't potentially do that to you!

Additionally, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of Max. Here's why...he has no trouble at all interacting with (neutered) Jack. I watched them play fight for 15 minutes earlier this evening, just like Puffy and Ax used to do. At one point, Jack was literally sitting on Max's head. Zero problems....at ALL.

Jack (neutered) and Puffy also get along fine together. Zero violence after achieving an understanding via Jack unabashedly and smartly (bless him) submitting on his back, on day 2.

Prior to Max getting older, he and Puffy got along GREAT and at times it even seemed like a father son relationship. It's only the last month or so that the situation has deteriorated. I don't think it's coincidental that this has happened at precisely the same time as Max's male hormones started kicking into high gear. In an even more "coincidental" occurrence, Max also completely "forgot" the recall command, that he was good enough at to be trusted off leash for MONTHS prior in open areas at precisely the same time. As vehemently ANTI neutering as I am, I figure it's at least worth a try in conjunction with possibly bringing in an EXPENSIVE behaviorist to try and salvage the situation isn't it?

Lastly, believe me when I tell you, *NOTHING* could be further from the truth than me EVER stating the opinion that Max is the "second greatest disc dog to ever live and the re-incarntion of Axl". I get reprimanded* continuously* on here, for overtly stating or even implying that he will never amount to more than a pimple on Ax's hind end. That doesn't mean I don't believe he can be a really good, fun dog, a great buddy, and even a serviceable disc dog, but there was only *ONE* Axl.

P.S. My wife was once told by a friend's father after observing my behavior at a party in the 80s that she could "shoot the pope, stab three nuns to death, and *still* go to heaven for putting up with me!" True story.


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## CashStringer

Just wanted to join everyone in passing along my best wishes for your family! I also appreciate the levity you add to the situation (and your thick skin!!). If it makes you feel any better, I have two males (both now neutered). We just got the younger one neutered at 22 months - we were planning on waiting to 24 months (he's a slow maturer) but we couldn't take it anymore. He had been exhibiting aggression with other outside (most intact) dogs (we never let it get to an attack - just overly focused, posturing, barking, etc.) It's been about a month and we've already seen a difference. I've heard the half life of testosterone is about 30 days so hopefully it will continue to get better from here! 

Please keep us updated!


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## alphadude

CashStringer said:


> Just wanted to join everyone in passing along my best wishes for your family! I also appreciate the levity you add to the situation (and your thick skin!!). If it makes you feel any better, I have two males (both now neutered). We just got the younger one neutered at 22 months - we were planning on waiting to 24 months (he's a slow maturer) but we couldn't take it anymore. He had been exhibiting aggression with other outside (most intact) dogs (we never let it get to an attack - just overly focused, posturing, barking, etc.) It's been about a month and we've already seen a difference. I've heard the half life of testosterone is about 30 days so hopefully it will continue to get better from here!
> 
> Please keep us updated!


Thanks kindly CS! I have heard the same re the testosterone ~ a month. I was personally hoping not to have to neuter Max at all, but if it proved absolutely necessary, like you I had targeted no earlier than 24 months.


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## alphadude

Just stumbled across the pic of my little "souvenir" courtesy of Trey the day he attacked Puffy...August 25 2015. Ax was attacked July 1.

You can see Puffy's side in the pic (can tell by the rounded paws) and his little buddy Lucky who belongs to a friend of mine.


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## Anele

CashStringer... be sure to let your breeder know what’s going on if you haven’t already. He or she may want to know when considering future breedings.

AD that photo is awful. Thank goodness you know how to handle things. No wonder your wife keeps you around!


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## sophieanne

AD - as one who has given you grief over the axl/max comparisons, i have to say your note above regarding Puffy puts things in greater perspective. I still feel sorry for him for what's happening in your home, but I also now see he isn't an innocent bystander . You don't have to explain yourself to anyone, but that note above does clarify the dynamic of Puffy much more than I knew. I know you're working on the situation and hopefully you'll have it resolved quickly. Good luck.


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## CashStringer

Anele said:


> CashStringer... be sure to let your breeder know what’s going on if you haven’t already. He or she may want to know when considering future breedings.
> 
> AD that photo is awful. Thank goodness you know how to handle things. No wonder your wife keeps you around!


I didn't consider it anything out of the ordinary when it came to a 22 month old intact male. He was absolutely wonderful off leash with other dogs and with our other boy at home. It was more on-leash frustration. When another dog was around (especially another intact male), he would get overly focused on the dog, pull, and bark. I don't think it had anything to do with breeding and more to do with mistakes we made training him. We do our best but are only human .... 

He is the sweetest, calmest, most incredible dog you can imagine now. We take him to 10+ hour long tournaments on weekends and he is simply perfection.


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## alphadude

Anele said:


> CashStringer... be sure to let your breeder know what’s going on if you haven’t already. He or she may want to know when considering future breedings.
> 
> AD that photo is awful. Thank goodness you know how to handle things. No wonder your wife keeps you around!


Yeah, I keep asking myself why she keeps me around. Perhaps you're right. My wife, my two daughters, and my sister need a man around for when cars, appliances, etc. break. I also come in handy when things need "straightening out" I guess.

It looked worse than it actually was, he just took a little chunk of flesh out in the cuticle area - it bled a lot. I let it bleed intentionally because I couldn't wash it at the beach and I'm not a portable antibacterial soap type of guy. lol I think all that crap weakens the immune system. My Irish grandmother told me "we all eat a pound of dirt before we die" and I guess I took it to heart. Hey, she almost hit the century mark so I guess she was right.


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## alphadude

sophieanne said:


> AD - as one who has given you grief over the axl/max comparisons, i have to say your note above regarding Puffy puts things in greater perspective. I still feel sorry for him for what's happening in your home, but I also now see he isn't an innocent bystander . You don't have to explain yourself to anyone, but that note above does clarify the dynamic of Puffy much more than I knew. I know you're working on the situation and hopefully you'll have it resolved quickly. Good luck.


I was actually sorry after I posted that verbose rant, but I had to get it off my chest. 

Everyone on this forum who knows and adores Puffy, visualizes him as I stated above, a cute, lovable, clumsy, docile, "sympathetic figure" who was dealt a beat hand by life with his half crippled back legs and in all honesty, he is *exactly that* 99.99% of the time. I can honestly say that I have *NEVER* in almost 6 years, seen him even think about getting aggressive with a human. I swear, I could probably carve pieces out of him with a butcher knife and he would look soulfully at me with his big sad eyes and lick my hand. 

BUT there is unfortunately another side to him when it comes to dogs - only occasionally. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it from my perspective, but it all probably makes perfect sense in his little doggy brain. The trigger may be subtle and elude even my fairly experienced eye. 

I swear most of it goes back to my neighbor's aggressive little JRT who is a month younger than Puffy and they essentially grew up together playing in my yard every day. The JRT was a lively, aggressive little bugger, as most are, and he used to bounce all over Puffy nipping him. Most times, Puffy would lay down because of his bad legs and allow this. When they began to get over stimulated, I would put an end to it, or occasionally Ax would but most times he just ignored them as if they were beneath him. As they got older, the JRT became increasingly aggressive and started to bite harder, and one day when they were both well over a year old, he must have bitten just a bit too hard for Puffy's liking and just like that, out of the blue, I had a full on dog fight going on. His owner stood there befuddled and did not attempt to do anything, so of course, I handled it. All three of us (the two dogs and I) all ended up bleeding a little. I just chalked it up to play that got a bit too rough and overstimulation. I banned the jack from the yard for a week or two. The JRT, BTW to this day is not neutered either. Anyway, things went back to normal for a long while and then it happened again. Same result, my hand got nicked up again but this time the fight was even nastier and Puffster lost a chunk of meat from between his eyes that took MONTHS to heal because it was deep.

It was not too long after that second brawl that he tried to attack a much smaller dog for no reason @ the beach. I remember being VERY angry at him because if there's one thing I cannot STAND, it's a bully. My reasoning was at the time, that dog might have resembled the JRT to him, and perhaps he was feeling a rush of testosterone, and felt like striking first for a change. I honestly don't know, but ever since then there have been isolated incidents, some initiated by him, some in response.

Being a responsible owner, I take precautions with him. When we go to the beach he is NEVER unleashed if another dog is visible. I keep a sharp eye out at all times and if one comes into view, I will call him to me and leash him immediately. Even if he sees the dog and makes a break for it (never has happened), I feel like I can catch him easily enough because although Puffy has many fine qualities, blazing speed is DEFINITELY not one of them. He lumbers rather than runs.

All of this is not meant to be a Puffy bashing session, but a realistic snapshot of him "warts" and all.

Despite these little issues, he is still a great and extremely gentle guy, and I very much want to keep him around. I feel a great amount of loyalty to him and want him to have a pleasant comfortable life (as comfortable as I can make it anyway), for the rest of his days, however long that may be.

I have always tried to protect Puffy and do right by him to the best of my abilities and even Ax looked out for him too. I saw him run off (not maul - he didn't need to) dogs who wanted to mess with Puffy on at least two separate occasions. Yet another reason I loved that dog.

I don't know, I just felt all of that needed saying.


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## murphy1

I get it AD and I'm glad you put it out there how much you love Puffy. No doubt he loves and needs you too.


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## sophieanne

I totally understand where you were coming from AD. There is no doubt in my mind that Puffy is a very gentle dog who, like many of our dogs, just can be pushed/rubbed the wrong way. I've seen my golden girl do the same - never a bad situation cause she's always on a leash when we're out but we know she has the potential to be a fighter if the opportunity arose. I guess I just wanted to apologize because I didn't know the whole story and you know what they say about assumptions. I feel bad for the situation but have a feeling you'll make it all work out.


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## golfgal

Sorry about getting Max's age wrong. I feel like I need to come get lessons on how to handle things with other dogs when we're out and about. There's been a couple of attacks on Murphy that I've posted about but not all of them. It's the other dogs that worry me when we're out as I don't spot the behavior quick enough and Murphy will be on the losing end. so I wish had the confidence to know I can handle any situation. Glad that you do and I love the sense of humour and honesty.


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## alphadude

sophieanne said:


> I totally understand where you were coming from AD. There is no doubt in my mind that Puffy is a very gentle dog who, like many of our dogs, just can be pushed/rubbed the wrong way. I've seen my golden girl do the same - never a bad situation cause she's always on a leash when we're out but we know she has the potential to be a fighter if the opportunity arose. I guess I just wanted to apologize because I didn't know the whole story and you know what they say about assumptions. I feel bad for the situation but have a feeling you'll make it all work out.


No worries SpohieAnne, this NY kid has a thick skin. lol


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## alphadude

golfgal said:


> Sorry about getting Max's age wrong. I feel like I need to come get lessons on how to handle things with other dogs when we're out and about. There's been a couple of attacks on Murphy that I've posted about but not all of them. It's the other dogs that worry me when we're out as I don't spot the behavior quick enough and Murphy will be on the losing end. so I wish had the confidence to know I can handle any situation. Glad that you do and I love the sense of humour and honesty.


No worries GG, I only mentioned his age being different because it's relevant to the situation. Thank you for the compliments, they are appreciated. Not everyone 'gets' my sense of humor, and although they might think so, not everyone appreciates being told 'what time it is' (That's NY speak for the blunt, honest truth).

The first lesson is to accept the fact that you're going to get nicked up a bit, or worse. I've tried many of the recommended "foolproof" methods of breaking up a dog fight and found they are not always so foolproof. 5 days ago my daughter had Max's hind legs 4' in the air (the so called wheelbarrow maneuver) and he still didn't let go.

Mine is the "NO NONSENSE" direct approach....wade right in and grab both dogs by the collars while avoiding snapping teeth as best you can, and pull very hard in opposite directions, it's definitely not rocket science! lol

Of course, it really helps to be a 6' tall 230 lb man with *most* (unfortunately not all) of his upper body strength left even after 5+ decades of existence.

My philosophy is simple, ALWAYS be alert, prepared to handle your dog, and unfortunately be prepared to potentially also handle the dogs of people who either don't know how, are unable to, don't particularly care, or are just not terribly bright. These are all skills I unfortunately had to perfect and utilize during my adventures with Ax. Truth of it is, he really didn't need my help, he proved to be quite capable of taking care of himself and then some, it was more for the protection of the dogs foolish enough to mess with him.


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## alphadude

Got some video of a brawl between them today. Before anybody flames me, they *BOTH* had muzzles so neither could get injured. The first interaction was in the kitchen which I did not get on video. Max totally ignored Puffy and in fact lay down. Puffy attempted to attack him. We separated them, let the calm down for a half hour or so. I decided the second time would be outside. Max was already out there so I brought Puffy out the sliders. They both had leashes on as well for easier separation. It was like a Mexican standoff, they both stared each other down for over a minute. I wanted to see who made the first move - this time it as Max. Check out the video. As you can see, it looked like Puffy was getting the worst of it. While Max is light years from Axl, he is definitely a better fighter than Puffy and much more agile and quick


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## jennretz

Have you set an appointment with a veterinary behaviorist yet? I would not let them be together. Period. Putting both dogs near one another is not helping your situation I fear. It may actually be making it worse.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alphadude

jennretz said:


> Have you set an appointment with a veterinary behaviorist yet? I would not let them be together. Period. Putting both dogs near one another is not helping your situation I fear. It may actually be making it worse.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not yet still "vetting" them. 

I think you are right, I think this is reinforcing the behavior. Obviously, Max was clearly the aggressor in this case but the roles were flipped half an hour before. Going to try to get them both to the vet tomorrow and see if there is possibly a physical problem

This is a total drag.


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## Megora

Which dog is the curly dog that was down below?

That's the one that needs to get a life and likely has a lot of issues. My opinion.

I think he needs obedience training, he needs to be taken out and run to burn off excess energy, and quite honestly that point where you saw them doing that stand off on the porch, I would have been getting out there and breaking the focus between the two.

You have two dogs who are trying to sort each other out. And it's not working right now because you have a dog who isn't backing down when the other is posturing. 

That's the point where they need to know that you are in charge. Any time you see them posturing is when you bring out the cans with pennies in there and shake them or whatever you have to do and yell at them to break it off. 

It's a good thing you have the muzzles and leashes on because at least they aren't getting hurt, but they need obedience training. They need to understand that neither of them is truly the top of the totem pole. You are.

You don't have to be punching them or getting aggressive with them. But they have to know that you will step in when you see behaviors that are inappropriate and you want to discourage. 

I also would not leave them in the house loose together, they don't go outside loose together, and in general they should never be together without you or somebody else ready to step in and prevent fights. 

Neutering will not stop the behaviors if the dog is mean and truly hates the other dog's guts. And that's what I saw in the video.


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## my4goldens

Yikes. It's very clear from the video these two dogs should not be allowed to have any contact. At least until you've sorted out what is going on. And something obviously is going on between them. Doesn't seem fair to either of them to keep putting them in a position to accelerate the aggression between them. And Puffy has orthopedic issues, right? Can't be good for him to be fighting like this. I don't know which one is the instigator, maybe they just have decided they hate each other. I hope you figure out what can be done to help these dogs. Living in this state of heightened aggression has to be tough on them, and certainly on you and your family.


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## Laurie

That was quite disturbing to watch!! Given what I just saw and from what I've read, I'm not confident that those 2 boys will ever be able to cohabitate peacefully. And by asking them to, is not fair to either one. Neither one deserves to have to go through that on a regular basis and I agree with the others that neutering is probably not going to help. Some dogs just don't like each other. 

I think in the end you're probably going to have to rehome one of them and I'm guessing it would be Puffy as Max is better suited to your lifestyle. I know you don't want that as an option but one of them, or a member of your family, is going to be seriously hurt should they get at each other again. I think you had a few offers from Forum members to take Puffy...you may want to take them up on that and let Puffy have a bit more of a peaceful existence.

I, myself, have a 9 year old Golden that doesn't like other dogs. He lost his buddy and best friend in 2016. I also have 2 other dogs: one is 5 and the other 5 months. My younger 2 get along great but do not interact, other than through gates, with my older boy. It's a PITA actually but we've found a way to make it work for the time being. 

I wish you the best of luck with your boys!!


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## gdgli

alphadude

I am quickly going through this thread. I have not looked at the video and for good reason---it is probably going to tick me off. I would never do what you are doing. Some dogs just should never be together. When I introduce a new dog to the household I take a long time in doing so. I watch/manage their behavior. They get seperate free time until I am confident with their behavior. And I am prepared to keep them seperate forever if I have to (never had to). Putting two dogs together to hash things out---what did you teach them? 

You have a lot to learn about behavior.


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## mylissyk

You have to STOP putting these two dogs together. You are only REINFORCING their aggression towards each other. You accomplished nothing other than seeing what you already knew and let them fight again TWICE.

Muzzles don't stop injuries when they are that determined. 

You need to get an appointment with the behaviorist and do it now. Quit stalling, and stop thinking you can fix this yourself. Get a professional involved yesterday.


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## GoldenCamper

Sadly I could not watch your video as mother hen deleted it. I can only assume it must have been one of those R rated movies. Keep in mind you are a bit much for a Wally family forum. Back in the day it wasn't so TSA and people could talk about things.

You're a good boy AD, pat pat, good boy. Keep everything to yourself from now on like I have, run away from GRF and find a facebook page or something?


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## GoldenCamper

You remind me of so many strong willed members that became ghosts around here. The deleted vid is your Q to move on.


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## Megora

Fwiw - the video had 2 dogs with muzzles on and was primarily noise. 

There really wasn't a good reason to remove it.

The video itself was helpful from the perspective of it clearly showing what's going on.


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## Yaichi's Mom

AD, my heart goes out to you and the situation you are living with Max and Puffy. :crying:
I know you must be at your whits end attempting to find a solution for them both, your heart and love for them and your family.

I can't see your video. I have refreshed my computer, gotten back of the forum yet there is no evidence of it being there.

Did a Mod or someone here delete it? ...or is my access to this forum corrupt in some way?? If AD's video was deleted, I think we all need an answer as to why. 

I am sure that AD posted the video so that "other eyes" could assist him in helping him see what may they see vs what he may see.

Is it just me or are others not able to see the video that AD posted?

Regardless, AD sending you love, strength, clarity of thought to find a resolution to this most serious problem you are facing with Max, Puffy and your family. 

I wish I could offer you some advice, however not being able to do so, know that I am thinking of you and your family...hugs..

Wishing you nothing but the best, as I feel how much you love your canine family and how I trust you will leave no stone unturned to find a solution if possible .


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## CAROLINA MOM

Hey all, the Mod Team received a few reported posts regarding this thread and the video in question. 

Per rule #15, actions taken by the Mod team and a member are not open for discussion publicly here on the board, they are between the member and the Mod team only. 

Please refrain from any further discussion regarding this or the Mod team may have to consider closing this thread due to continued Rule Violations. 

You can view the rules at this link along with an explanation of Rule #15-

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html

Let's try to get the thread back on topic, thanks!


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## GoldenCamper

CAROLINA MOM said:


> Hey all, the Mod Team received a few reported posts regarding this thread and the video in question.
> 
> Per rule #15, actions taken by the Mod team and a member are not open for discussion publicly here on the board, they are between the member and the Mod team only.
> 
> Please refrain from any further discussion regarding this or the Mod team may have to consider closing this thread due to continued Rule Violations.
> 
> You can view the rules at this link along with an explanation of Rule #15-
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html
> 
> Let's try to get the thread back on topic, thanks!


 I would like to say in the most polite manner possible we never used to have so many rules. A vast amount of members left because of them, such a loss of knowledge


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## Yaichi's Mom

CAROLINA MOM said:


> Hey all, the Mod Team received a few reported posts regarding this thread and the video in question.
> 
> Per rule #15, actions taken by the Mod team and a member are not open for discussion publicly here on the board, they are between the member and the Mod team only.
> 
> Please refrain from any further discussion regarding this or the Mod team may have to consider closing this thread due to continued Rule Violations.
> 
> You can view the rules at this link along with an explanation of Rule #15-
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html
> 
> Let's try to get the thread back on topic, thanks!


How do any of us learn, grow and help one another when a member reaches out to show others in this community what he/she is dealing with?

This thread has NO hope of going back on topic, as the "topic" has been censored. ...more than very sad and especially for AD and for anyone else who "breaks the rules" :frown2::frown2::frown2:

Certainly there is some discretion and levity in enforcing such "rules"

As a forum owner in a totally different genre I find this most distressing.....and with my comment here I will likely be catalyst for getting this thread closed or worse...sorry with apologies...


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## CAROLINA MOM

I have been a member since May 2009, the Forum Rules that are currently in place are the same rules that have always been in place and were in place when I joined in 2009. The Rules are those of the Site Owners. The Mod Team is here to make sure posts and threads comply with the Forum Rules. When a member joins, you are asked to review the Registration Agreement and either accept it or not. This can also be viewed at the link provided with the Forum Rules. 

Here is the Forum Rules and the Registration Agreement you agreed to when you set up your Account here on the GRF. 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html


When a member reports a post, each member of the Mod Team receives a copy of it, including Forum Admin Rob. 

Each member of the team reviews it, we discuss it and we take a vote on it. Any action taken is done by a Majority vote of the team, no one Mod makes a decision, however, I happened to be the one to edit the post this evening. 

The decision made is between the Mod team and the member and is NOT open for discussion on the forum.

Any further discussion of this action taken could result in this thread being closed. 

Again I ask everyone to refrain from discussing it and to get the thread back on topic.


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## alphadude

gdgli said:


> alphadude
> 
> I am quickly going through this thread. I have not looked at the video and for good reason---it is probably going to tick me off. I would never do what you are doing. Some dogs just should never be together. When I introduce a new dog to the household I take a long time in doing so. I watch/manage their behavior. They get seperate free time until I am confident with their behavior. And I am prepared to keep them seperate forever if I have to (never had to). Putting two dogs together to hash things out---what did you teach them?
> 
> You have a lot to learn about behavior.


Well maybe you went through *it a bit too quickly or your reading comprehension is exceptionally poor*, but these two dogs have been living together for over a year. I don't particularly care whether you're a 'super mod' or not, your condescending, judgmental attitude is sickening.

You have a lot to learn about manners.

P.S. I likely forgot more last night than you know about effectively handling aggressive dogs.


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## alphadude

Megora said:


> Which dog is the curly dog that was down below?
> 
> That's the one that needs to get a life and likely has a lot of issues. My opinion.
> 
> I think he needs obedience training, he needs to be taken out and run to burn off excess energy, and quite honestly that point where you saw them doing that stand off on the porch, I would have been getting out there and breaking the focus between the two.
> 
> You have two dogs who are trying to sort each other out. And it's not working right now because you have a dog who isn't backing down when the other is posturing.
> 
> That's the point where they need to know that you are in charge. Any time you see them posturing is when you bring out the cans with pennies in there and shake them or whatever you have to do and yell at them to break it off.
> 
> It's a good thing you have the muzzles and leashes on because at least they aren't getting hurt, but they need obedience training. They need to understand that neither of them is truly the top of the totem pole. You are.
> 
> You don't have to be punching them or getting aggressive with them. But they have to know that you will step in when you see behaviors that are inappropriate and you want to discourage.
> 
> I also would not leave them in the house loose together, they don't go outside loose together, and in general they should never be together without you or somebody else ready to step in and prevent fights.
> 
> Neutering will not stop the behaviors if the dog is mean and truly hates the other dog's guts. And that's what I saw in the video.


Megora, I don't even know where to begin...Max the "curly dog down below" "needs to get a life and clearly has a lot of issues". You can tell that from a 30 second video clip??? How remarkably perceptive! Sadly, I didn't get the clip a half hour before when he walked past Puffy (both muzzled) as if he wasn't there, laid down a few feet away, not even looking at him and Puffy attacked him viciously from above and behind totally unprovoked. 

Are you SERIOUSLY telling *ME* that Max needs to burn off excess energy?? The guy who has posted *thousands* of times on GRF that I believe in exercising his dogs to the point of near exhaustion to help mitigate undesirable behavior. The name Axl ring a bell? Further, you are telling me that they need to understand who is ultimately in charge??? I think I was quite effective in conveying that point to Axl who was *10 TIMES* the *hard case* either one of these dogs are. Do you really think that I couldn't have prevented the "noisy head butt contest" because that's all it really was, in a hot second, if that had been my aim? I could have nipped that crap in the bud, they stood there eyeing each other for over a minute. A sloth could have acted in that time. I was VIDEOING the interaction to get an "expert opinion" from one of the PHD "geniuses" everybody keeps insisting I need.

Of COURSE, they are never allowed to interact at ALL whether supervised or unsupervised since things have gotten to this point. 

FWIW, I have seen Max ("the curly dog with apparent issues") interact with scores of other dogs, never once getting the least bit aggressive. These dogs have been intact, neutered, male, female, large and small. Not even an aggressive posture. A few hours after the now 'infamous' video, I had Max and Jack out exercising (I've heard that's helpful) and I ran into a good friend with his jumpy black lab. Friendly greetings all around no evidence of a problem, not a growl, nothing.

"Sweet" Puffy on the other hand, HAS had aggression issues in the past with various dogs as explained in minute detail earlier in the thread. Perhaps Max just decided to jump the gun and get Puffy first this time around. Perhaps they just all of a sudden have decided they HATE each other, I don't know. Up until a month ago, Puffy behaved in an almost patriarchal manner towards Max. Perhaps there is a MEDICAL reason this is happening. Perhaps this is a case of raging testosterone. At worst they are *equally* to blame but to characterize it as completely one sided based on a 30 second video clip is just flat out WRONG. 

"Punching or aggressive" with them? How would you suggest I break up a bloody brawl when all the conventional methods fail?? Speak in dulcet tones and ask them nicely to cease and desist at once?? For the record, I wasn't wailing away at either one of them for giggles, I punched the point of contact between Max's mouth and Puffy's inner ear becasue that was the quickest and *ONLY* way to break the contact!!

Trust me, you could throw a dozen cans filled with pennies at them once the fun gets underway and they'll just keep on doing what they're doing. A cattle prod probably wouldn't have worked last weekend. Short of letting them finish it themselves, I did what I HAD to do to get things back under my control. Believe me, I took NO pleasure in it. Additionally, I do understand that you meant to try and *prevent* it from getting *started* that way, my reading comprehension is excellent.

I am not trying to be insulting or obnoxious to you but your statements were out of line. To characterize me as being *extremely angry* at the reaction on here by *some* to this video would be understating things by several orders of magnitude. Sorry you caught the brunt of it because yours was the first post I saw after I learned the link was removed, and I don't give a fat rat's kieister whether the mods view this as another 'infraction' for having the unmitigated audacity to refer to an IDIOTIC decision. Go ahead lock the thread, ban my account, or whatever you feel like doing. Jimmy Crack Corn and I don't ------- care. I have always tried to conduct myself in a respectful manner on here and abide by the rules but this is completely absurd.

P.S. Max and I had a chat just now and he told me he had a job interview tomorrow and intends to move out because he agrees he needs to 'get a life' as well. Anthropomorphize much?


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## alphadude

GoldenCamper said:


> You remind me of so many strong willed members that became ghosts around here. The deleted vid is your Q to move on.


Yeah, I'm kind of getting that GC. Imagine my shock going from an 'admired man' to Michael Vick in under an hour. Must be some kind of record. 

I'll be going full ghost mode after tonight assuming my account isn't deleted...lol

There are a lot of folks on here who have been very kind to me and I consider friends even though we have never met...they know who they are.


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## Megora

At least I watched the video before giving an opinion. 

Video = 

I saw the dogs doing a stare down, one at the top of the steps and the other at the bottom. 

That's the point (BEFORE ANY ATTACK) when you should have stepped in and broken things up. Not reacting after the dogs have already started going at each other. Shaking cans or whatever works BEFORE ANY ATTACK would stop an attack before it happens. 

Telling you to be more constructive and assertive is not the same thing as punching your dogs in the head or throwing them around. You already have one dog trying to maul the other in the attempts to gain the upper hand and that's not working. 

In the video, it was just Max primarily attacking the other dog who was standing there and trying to shake Max off during the attack. 

The attack in the video was all Max trying to maul the other dog. 

You seemed to be asking the opinions of people based on the video and the video shows that the younger dog is the one that needs major league training and exercise and more time AWAY from the other dog. 

I would not be surprised that negative interaction between the two has been building. And once dogs fight, they remember. There's shorter fuses and less warning before the next time. That's the kind of stuff which doesn't get miraculously fixed by neutering.

Oh and I forgot to say this, I do not anthropomorphize dogs.


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## gdgli

Megora

I have also watched the video. I made the same observations as you re: body language. I wonder if in the past year there were other subtle displays that were not recognized. It can happen. I myself carry the scars resulting from my not recognizing dogs' body language. The dogs taught me lessons that I won't forget.


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## gdgli

alphadude

I wish you luck with your dogs. Hopefully you can address this issue effectively. Probably some help from someone experienced, perhaps a professional, who recognizes what is going on would be a good idea.


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## alphadude

Megora said:


> At least I watched the video before giving an opinion.
> 
> Video =
> 
> I saw the dogs doing a stare down, one at the top of the steps and the other at the bottom.
> 
> That's the point (BEFORE ANY ATTACK) when you should have stepped in and broken things up. Not reacting after the dogs have already started going at each other. Shaking cans or whatever works BEFORE ANY ATTACK would stop an attack before it happens.
> 
> Telling you to be more constructive and assertive is not the same thing as punching your dogs in the head or throwing them around. You already have one dog trying to maul the other in the attempts to gain the upper hand and that's not working.
> 
> In the video, it was just Max primarily attacking the other dog who was standing there and trying to shake Max off during the attack.
> 
> The attack in the video was all Max trying to maul the other dog.
> 
> You seemed to be asking the opinions of people based on the video and the video shows that the younger dog is the one that needs major league training and exercise and more time AWAY from the other dog.
> 
> I would not be surprised that negative interaction between the two has been building. And once dogs fight, they remember. There's shorter fuses and less warning before the next time. That's the kind of stuff which doesn't get miraculously fixed by neutering.
> 
> Oh and I forgot to say this, I do not anthropomorphize dogs.


Megora, I am sorry about coming across in as snarly a manner as I did. I was extremely surprised at the reaction to that video some on here had. Anyone who knows me, KNOWS the reason I posted it. It was not intended to be 'entertaining' or shocking, but a tool. Frankly, I was angry and I'm very stressed out. I was just going to edit the post to you I posted but I saw you had seen it already and replied.

You make valid points, in the video, Max was the clear aggressor, had I videoed the previous encounter, you would have said exactly the opposite, only more so because there was no stare down before it began. I understand that each occurrence reinforces the behavior BUT, I wanted to get some video evidence with hopefully some clues or triggers that an expert could possibly spot. My hope today was that there would be no confrontation but if there was which I thought likely, I wanted it safe for both, thus the muzzles, and easily ended thus the leashes. All in all I would classify it as an 'epic fail' on several levels.

To add insult to injury, Max got a hold of his hour old, $35 muzzle afterwards when they were safely separated and I was otherwise occupied, and completely destroyed it so there will be no sequel. 

Regarding the punching in the head thing, for the last time, I explained why that was done and it was not to either of their heads, it was at the point of contact to BREAK it. I tried pulling and was not successful. I had no choice. I do not get my jollies punching my dogs and it was better than the alternative of allowing him to continue chewing on Puffy's inner ear. Even back in the day with Axl, there were times that necessitated me 'manhandling' him a bit, but they did NOT involve punching. 

Anyway, seeing as it's likely this thread will be locked or I'll be booted off here for my 'insolence' I just wanted to not leave things off as they were.

Rest assured, I will do everything conceivable to fix this if it can be fixed. One thing I think you'd agree on is that I value my canine family members.


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## alphadude

Well THAT was fun. Thankfully, it seems things have calmed down considerably, and civility is making a comeback.


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## gdgli

alphadude

I have PMd you.


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## Gleepers

I can only imagine the stress and tension that everyone in your house is currently going through. 

When you are at the vets you might think about having a full thyroid panel run. Especially on Puffy.


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## alphadude

Gleepers said:


> I can only imagine the stress and tension that everyone in your house is currently going through.
> 
> When you are at the vets you might think about having a full thyroid panel run. Especially on Puffy.


Extremely stressful.

I was thinking the same thing re the thyroid panel.


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## fourlakes

I glanced at this thread earlier but am just now looking at it more carefully. This is a very serious problem and as a breeder I would want to be informed if one of my pups was in this situation. Have you contacted Max’s breeder to inform him/ her of what is going on? As I recall Max is from a very experienced and reputable breeder. I hope you will contact them and ask for advice. And I agree with Megora that obedience training with Max would be a great help. As she said, YOU have to be the one in charge, neither of the dogs. Obedience training sets that type of situation up. Since you don’t seem to want to work with a behaviorist (“the PhD geniuses everyone keeps insisting I need”) find an experienced trainer and work with them. You do need outside help because obviously whatever you have been doing is not working in this situation. I’m assuming that’s why you posted here, asking for help. Time to act on some of those suggestions. Others have also suggested that you get both dogs neutered and I think that is a good idea,even if you decide to rehome one, which I also think is a good idea.

As I recall (I may be wrong as I don’t always follow things closely here...) you wanted a strongly dominant, “macho” type male dog when you got Max. Though you clearly love your dogs, you do seem to enjoy strong-willed, highly competitive, go get’em Type behavior in dogs. But here the macho, “alpha” thing has slipped over into outright aggression and violence and gotten out of hand. You may want to consider why you like that type of behavior - defending turf, aggression, etc. I have to say that I find phrases like how you could “cut slices ( out of your dog) with a butcher knife” and he would lick your hand disturbing. 

I thank the moderators for removing the video of the dogs fighting. I don’t want to see it and don’t believe it belongs on this forum. Alphadude, best of luck to you in getting this situation resolved. You have some hard work to do.


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## Megora

alphadude said:


> "Sweet" Puffy on the other hand, HAS had aggression issues in the past with various dogs as explained in minute detail earlier in the thread. Perhaps Max just decided to jump the gun and get Puffy first this time around. Perhaps they just all of a sudden have decided they HATE each other, I don't know. Up until a month ago, Puffy behaved in an almost patriarchal manner towards Max.


One more thought to throw out there. 

Sometimes even though "both" dogs appear to be equally causing the fights.... it really is one dog that's starting everything.

Puffy might have started prior fights because Max has been pushing the envelope and not backing down. 

You will have this starting as resource guarding (food, toys, or even you) and it can expand to the other dog just getting in his face or being too active and pushy and not backing down when Puffy merely growled or snapped at him. 

And as I said, once the dogs have gotten into a dog fight, they remember. 

When you have two dominant male dogs, you need to be the one to keep them in order. A lot of that is managing the subtle behaviors between the dogs and keeping them from "loosely" interacting (meaning, I would not want them interacting off leash with each other). 

It's possible the reason why you did not see this earlier between Puffy and Axl is because the "totem pole" stuff was well sorted out between those two dogs. A truly dominant dog does not have to do very much in order to keep the other dogs in line around him and you can have a peaceful kingdom with your group. 

Typically bringing home another dog as a puppy usually will be better than bringing an adult dog home for the reason that older dogs naturally assume the top rung of the totem pole, even when they are not truly dominant. The younger dogs get put in their place as puppies and follow their big brothers around everywhere. 

I gather the reason why you are seeing problems is probably something has changed in the recent months. And or it just takes once incident between the two before things escalate. 

I have to thank Jane for the bit about obedience training - it's something I firmly believe in as helping keep the peace. 

Depending on how old Max is right now - he may settle down in 1-2 years. But meanwhile, you need to make sure he knows the rules of the road + give him a job in life. Obedience training and one-on-one work every day will help take his focus off his bro. Obedience training will also tone down some of the macho dog stuff.

Good luck. 

Personally speaking, I never give up on any of my dogs. I think things happen and you work your way through them.


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## Vhuynh2

We can’t forget that Puffy is older and was there first, regardless of whether or not he or Max is truly submissive or dominant or what. Even if Puffy isn’t truly dominant, it’s understandable that he might have a problem submitting to a younger dog who joined the pack later. 

Just wondering if you ever did anything to establish an order? Did you encourage Max to become alpha dog over the other dogs?

When I brought Maisey home I told my breeder I was afraid of how having two dominant girls would work out. While Molly is not “truly” dominant, Maisey is. She lifts her leg and pees over Molly’s urine. While Maisey always respected Molly as a pup, I always made sure that she knew Molly was first. Molly always ate first, got a new toy first, always was the first to go through doors. On leashed walks, I let Molly walk ahead. I never let Maisey steal Molly’s bones even though Molly wouldn’t care. I don’t know if this helped but they have not had any problems and Maisey always defers to Molly when Molly decides to correct her.


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## my4goldens

Vhuynh2 said:


> We can’t forget that Puffy is older and was there first, regardless of whether or not he or Max is truly submissive or dominant or what. Even if Puffy isn’t truly dominant, it’s understandable that he might have a problem submitting to a younger dog who joined the pack later.
> 
> Just wondering if you ever did anything to establish an order? Did you encourage Max to become alpha dog over the other dogs?
> 
> When I brought Maisey home I told my breeder I was afraid of how having two dominant girls would work out. While Molly is not “truly” dominant, Maisey is. She lifts her leg and pees over Molly’s urine. While Maisey always respected Molly as a pup, I always made sure that she knew Molly was first. Molly always ate first, got a new toy first, always was the first to go through doors. On leashed walks, I let Molly walk ahead. I never let Maisey steal Molly’s bones even though Molly wouldn’t care. I don’t know if this helped but they have not had any problems and Maisey always defers to Molly when Molly decides to correct her.



Lots of good advice here. I have a 16 month old intact male who is starting to press the envelope with his two older brothers. The 13 year old is frail, and can't/won't correct him, so that's when I step in. The 6 year old will put up with some stuff, then correct the younger dog appropriately, if it seems to me that things are heating up too much, I step in there too. The older dogs have earned the right to not be harassed and live in peace. And the young one needs to respect the pecking order in the pack, with my husband and I at the top.


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## WharzTippy

[Qcompetitive, go get’em Type behavior in dogs. But here the macho, “alpha” thing has slipped over into outright aggression and violence and gotten out of hand. You may want to consider why you like that type of behavior - defending turf, aggression, etc. I have to say that I find phrases like how you could “cut slices ( out of your dog) with a butcher knife” and he would lick your hand disturbing. 

This! Surely does explain it well.


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## finn's adventure

For what it's worth, from a relatively new dog owner's perspective, I have found a lot of value in reading about AD's dog pack. I really am grateful for how he has been transparent and articulate about everything, when he really hasn't needed to take the time to share. I've followed along during Axl's last battle as well as the current struggle with Max and Puffy. I haven't created an account before now, but I'd like to voice my sympathy and support for what's going on right now, AD, and I hope you don't stop posting here, because you're one of the thoughtful posters that I look for when I read through responses. Specific to this situation, I think dog-dog aggression is a common issue that is very difficult to resolve, and following how AD deals with it would provide insight for all of us dog owners, experienced and novice. It's hard to figure out what those doggy minds are thinking sometimes, especially since every dog has its own personality and hangups, and we all do the best that we can and are bound to make missteps that we learn from. Anyway, just my two cents. Fingers crossed that things smooth out between Puffy and Max soon, and then hopefully we'll be reading about their silly shenanigans again. 

By the way, I'd like to add that when I read the line about Puffy being such a gentle giant toward humans that he would lick your hand even if you cut him, I found it really really funny, and I chuckled about it afterwards when I thought about it again later in the day. Just thought that I'd voice my reaction too!


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## jennretz

finn's adventure said:


> By the way, I'd like to add that when I read the line about Puffy being such a gentle giant toward humans that he would lick your hand even if you cut him, I found it really really funny, and I chuckled about it afterwards when I thought about it again later in the day. Just thought that I'd voice my reaction too!


 
You are kidding, correct?!? It’s not funny. Quite frankly I would like to see it edited out. This is a serious situation. I understand that AD meant that they were loyal and trusting to a fault. I didn’t like it when he wrote it and I take complete offense to you thinking it was funny. Cruelty to dogs is not something to joke about.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## alphadude

finn's adventure said:


> For what it's worth, from a relatively new dog owner's perspective, I have found a lot of value in reading about AD's dog pack. I really am grateful for how he has been transparent and articulate about everything, when he really hasn't needed to take the time to share. I've followed along during Axl's last battle as well as the current struggle with Max and Puffy. I haven't created an account before now, but I'd like to voice my sympathy and support for what's going on right now, AD, and I hope you don't stop posting here, because you're one of the thoughtful posters that I look for when I read through responses. Specific to this situation, I think dog-dog aggression is a common issue that is very difficult to resolve, and following how AD deals with it would provide insight for all of us dog owners, experienced and novice. It's hard to figure out what those doggy minds are thinking sometimes, especially since every dog has its own personality and hangups, and we all do the best that we can and are bound to make missteps that we learn from. Anyway, just my two cents. Fingers crossed that things smooth out between Puffy and Max soon, and then hopefully we'll be reading about their silly shenanigans again.
> 
> *By the way, I'd like to add that when I read the line about Puffy being such a gentle giant toward humans that he would lick your hand even if you cut him, I found it really really funny, and I chuckled about it afterwards when I thought about it again later in the day. Just thought that I'd voice my reaction too!*


Thank you for the kind words, they are appreciated.

FINALLY!!! Someone who actually comprehends the meaning of *H Y P E R B O L E*

As a public service for the those _sensitive souls_ who were completely traumatized by my flagrant (mis)use of violent verbal imagery, I have provided the following link to explain the concept. For example:

"I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" 

Hyperbole | Define Hyperbole at Dictionary.com

Hopefully, I won't need to explain the concept of sarcasm next.


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## alphadude

WharzTippy said:


> [Qcompetitive, go get’em Type behavior in dogs. But here the macho, “alpha” thing has slipped over into outright aggression and violence and gotten out of hand. You may want to consider why you like that type of behavior - defending turf, aggression, etc. I have to say that I find phrases like how you could “cut slices ( out of your dog) with a butcher knife” and he would lick your hand disturbing.
> 
> This! Surely does explain it well.


Wow you've been here 15 minutes in figurative terms, and you've gained such insight into my character??

I'm not even going to dignify your idiotic statement with a response.


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## alphadude

jennretz said:


> You are kidding, correct?!? It’s not funny. Quite frankly I would like to see it edited out. This is a serious situation. I understand that AD meant that they were loyal and trusting to a fault. I didn’t like it when he wrote it and I take complete offense to you thinking it was funny. Cruelty to dogs is not something to joke abo
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Et tu Jenn? Wow, you're piling on too now? I wouldn't have believed it 2 days ago. I actually considered you one of my closest friends and confidants on here.

GC was 100% right. Now worries folks, message received, I'll regard that as my final cue to bounce.

AD out.


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## jennretz

alphadude said:


> Et tu Jenn? Wow, you're piling on too now? I wouldn't have believed it 2 days ago. I actually considered you one of my closest friends and confidants on here.
> 
> 
> 
> GC was 100% right. Now worries folks, message received, I'll regard that as my final cue to bounce.
> 
> 
> 
> AD out.




AD I’m not against you I know you love your dogs and I know you want what’s best for them it was just that one particular comment that I didn’t like and wish hadn’t said I understood what you meant by it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CAROLINA MOM

Just a reminder everyone- please be respectful to one another, we come from different areas of the US and other countries. We ALL have different viewpoints and opinions about everything. 

You may or may not agree or like/dislike the opinions or viewpoints of someone else, but they have a right to them just as you do your own. 

Please be respectful to each other and their viewpoints and opinions keeping the Forum Rules in mind when making posts.


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## ceegee

I saw AD's video and thought it was a useful illustration of the scope of the problem he's facing.

Regarding this thread in general, I have to say it's one of the more instructive ones I've come across in my years on GRF. Dog ownership is _not _all butterflies and roses. Stuff happens. When I introduced my new pup to our household two years ago, our resident dog hated him on sight. It was several weeks before I could have them in the same room without the resident dog attacking the puppy. We got through it and they are friends now, to the point of sharing beds and toys, but there was a time, early on, when I wondered if it would work out. And there has not been a week, since then, that I haven't thanked the universe for Duster's kind and gentle personality, which has allowed him to submit gracefully to the dictatorship of a 10 lb. toy poodle. It isn't always this straightforward, though. For example, I have a friend with two female dogs (fox terriers) that cannot be in the same room without fighting. Multi-dog households can be complicated. 

There but for the grace, and all that.

Another thing I have learned from this thread: In the GRF community we're quick to recommend that people leave their dogs intact for as long as possible for health reasons, but there are sometimes other considerations. As a society, we've become so used to living with neutered animals that we may have forgotten what intact animals can be like. Toss hormones into the mix and it may well make a difference.

And the first thing that came to my mind when watching that video: never judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.

I'm an experienced dog owner, but I have absolutely no clue how I would deal with the situation AD is faced with. It's very easy to toss out judgments and critiques from behind the computer screen, but when you're the one in the trenches, living with two dogs that just want to rip one another apart every time they're in the same space, the perspective is clearly very different. When someone is under this amount of stress, it's really not the right time to start picking apart their choice of vocabulary or attacking them for their figures of speech. The thing with a written medium such as this forum is that you not only have to write carefully, you also have to _read _carefully. IMHO there was nothing offensive in AD's figure of speech about slicing the dog - nothing. As he's just pointed out, hyperbole (definition: an exaggerated statement clearly not meant to be taken literally) is common. Anyone who lives with a teenager will know that! For example, last week, my kid said to me: "if you take my phone away, I'll die". Obviously I didn't jump to the conclusion that she was threatening suicide - that would have been silly. It was only a figure of speech. But animal lovers as a group are prone to losing perspective when it comes to situations that are, let's say, less than ideal, and I do think we've seen a bit of that in this thread.

I agree with Finn on the value of this thread and the insight it provides for prospective dog owners. I also hope that alphadude will keep us in the loop, and am crossing my fingers for a good resolution.

AD, I admire your loyalty to your dogs and your determination to sort this out.

PS I have just seen that you are bowing out of the forum. I understand, but I hope you'll reconsider. Your humour and your realistic approach to dog ownership would be greatly missed by some of us.


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## mylissyk

AD, what you've contributed on this board is worth more than few negative comments, I hope you will hang around. Selfishly, we all would like to hear you've found a solution for your family, and if you drop off the board we won't ever know.


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## GoldenCamper

ceegee said:


> Dog ownership is not all butterflies and roses. Stuff happens.



The first Golden I found was dumped in a parking lot and was approx 2yrs of age. I found that she resource guarded her food at first (bit me several times) so I figured that must have been why someone dumped her. Together we figured it out and she became a rare heart and soul dog to me. Too bad someone gave up on such a treasure, their loss.

My second came from a client of my vet, he said this is a dog for you. The owner had him since a pup and when he was 3yrs they adopted another male that was 4yrs and the boys had no problems together. Somehow he developed an aggression to small children and they lady wanted to give him up. Long story short he too became a great dog that everybody loved including kids. Their loss was my gain once again. 

My 3rd Golden lived outside in a old paddock for 8 years of her life with a few other smaller dogs. She was the most sweetest girl in every aspect and could have passed a CGC without even trying. I learned she was Alpha but had a level head about her, most dogs that tried to play ended up giving her space. One younger Golden girl did not and time after my girl put up with it then the day came she gave that young one a lesson. There were no injuries but my goodness, it made AD's vid look rather tame. The crowd looked on aghast as my sweet girl turned into a fury and made the other Golden cry.

Now I'm on my 4th girl that turns 8 soon I adopted last April. She's a retired breeder girl and a red headed nut with lots of energy. Loves everyone a bit to much by jumping on them but she is learning. Loves every dog she's met and has had lots of bitey face wrestling match playtime with like minded dogs. I'm still keeping her on a long line as some dogs and people don't appreciate her energy. She won't calm down until her teens I bet but she's mellowing out a little.

I am only posting this tome as some people mentioned they are learning from AD's post about Puffy and Max. Maybe people reading about my dogs might give theirs a 2nd try if things get bad. We can't learn if we cannot keep open minds about they way a person types out their words or try to show through a video or pictures what is going on. We are all different and I for one applaud how people express themselves, everyone is unique.


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## AmberSunrise

I usually stay far far away from these discussions, however I need to point out a few things.

When you love your dogs and they have developed a habit of fighting, it is not only stressful it is heart breaking.

After eliminating the usual causes and giving management a serious try you are faced with hard choices. 

Health reasons such as thyroid issues or pain should be investigated. If there are no underlying health causes your choices can be limited.

1) permanently managing your dogs so they do not interact 
2) rehoming
3) castration which might address the issue if there is an abundance of testosterone. If not a castrated dog is easier to rehome.
4) I have heard that medication might help.

These are limited choices and never easy to make.

These are extremely stressful problems to have and only people who have experienced serious dog fights (and know rattling a can or firing off a hose or any other commonly suggested means of breaking up a dog fight are just a waste of time) know how truly horrid they are. By serious fights, I mean fights bad enough to require veterinary patchups. Fights bad enough that people are hurt while breaking them up since not breaking them up may well result in one dog killing another dog.

So we really need to understand that others will do their best to remedy the situation. They love their dogs and do their very best to resolve any problems.

Back to my usual haunts  well except to say, AlphaDude I know you will make the best choices you can while work g through this issue. Good luck to you and all of your dogs.


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## murphy1

AD, please don't leave, I always look forward to your posts. Regarding the video, I did not see it, it had been deleted. 
I've had many dogs in my life and a few had issues. Kelly, the female I compared to your Ax, didn't like children or other dogs. We handled it and she had a good life until the age of 12. Shamus, my mastiff, didn't like young children either, so he spent some time napping on a king size bed when they visited. Maggie, a rottie, from championship lines was returned to the breeder at four months old for the safety of my young children. This was done after having an experienced trainer work with her, but I knew it was inevitable. I cried for months after returning her but ended up with my first Golden, Casey. Things happen for a reason.
My opinion of your situation is just that an opinion, as I'm not a professional but an owner of many dogs over many years. I don't see how the Max/Puffy situation can be rectified without re-homing one, and that one should be Max. I understand how you and your family must love him and your enjoyment of his new disk skill, but Puffy should remain in his home. I do agree contacting the breeder is an important call.
Whatever you do will be the right thing for you and your dogs. Good luck and "please don't go".


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## ceegee

Sunrise said:


> I usually stay far far away from these discussions, however I need to point out a few things.
> 
> When you love your dogs and they have developed a habit of fighting, it is not only stressful it is heart breaking.
> 
> After eliminating the usual causes and giving management a serious try you are faced with hard choices.
> 
> Health reasons such as thyroid issues or pain should be investigated. If there are no underlying health causes your choices can be limited.
> 
> 1) permanently managing your dogs so they do not interact
> 2) rehoming
> 3) castration which might address the issue if there is an abundance of testosterone. If not a castrated dog is easier to rehome.
> 4) I have heard that medication might help.
> 
> These are limited choices and never easy to make.
> 
> These are extremely stressful problems to have and only people who have experienced serious dog fights (and know rattling a can or firing off a hose or any other commonly suggested means of breaking up a dog fight are just a waste of time) know how truly horrid they are. By serious fights, I mean fights bad enough to require veterinary patchups. Fights bad enough that people are hurt while breaking them up since not breaking them up may well result in one dog killing another dog.
> 
> So we really need to understand that others will do their best to remedy the situation. They love their dogs and do their very best to resolve any problems.
> 
> Back to my usual haunts  well except to say, AlphaDude I know you will make the best choices you can while work g through this issue. Good luck to you and all of your dogs.


This is a wonderful post: supportive, full of empathy and wisdom, made without judgment, by someone who knows what she's talking about. Thank you!


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## WharzTippy

alphadude said:


> Wow you've been here 15 minutes in figurative terms, and you've gained such insight into my character??
> 
> I'm not even going to dignify your idiotic statement with a response.


You just did! As was mentioned before we all have differing life experiences while raising our dogs through out life. I have read and enjoy your threads possibly a lot more than you might think. I hope you stay and I believe you will, you have a lot to offer. I don't even own a GR and may never be able to. The way one person interprets an other persons thoughts and personality surely do vary. Surely makes for an interesting forum. 
I have faith that you and family are working together and this will turn out on a happy, peaceful resolution. 
Just wondering if thought i had not read any of your threads.


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## GoldenCamper

alphadude said:


> Yeah, I'm kind of getting that GC. Imagine my shock going from an 'admired man' to Michael Vick in under an hour. Must be some kind of record.


I forbid you to leave until you have had several temporary bans and half a dozen closed threads. You should've seen the old days here. I've had neither bans or closed threads but do speak my mind. Be all means stay away for a bit, it helps the blood pressure.

I bet all the mods secretly love you but they have rules they gotta follow. All forums as with life in general has ups and downs, just keep being you.


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## golfgal

Wow. What you miss when you lose your internet. I see AD you are still reading threads. 

My thought is that sometimes people can react without thinking and forget that often people post things when they are still processing what is going on and being grammatically or politically correct may not be the focus. 

I thought this thread was good learning opportunity as I know personally I wonder what I could be doing to Murphy as after several dog attacks he's not loving most dogs. How much of that is me and how much is him? Community is about learning from each other and hopefully accepting the good, bad and ugly regardless of whether we agree. Our experiences shape our behaviors and how we handle things and not all of us live in perfect world with perfect people. Or at least I don't. (yes sarcastic humour was intentional). Gotta go, puppy pee break time......


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## GoldenCamper

We should get together sometime on your tab  Some people might get Yankees but you New Yorkers are on a whole different level.


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## Tennyson

alphadude said:


> Yeah, I'm kind of getting that GC. Imagine my shock going from an 'admired man' to Michael Vick in under an hour. Must be some kind of record.
> 
> I'll be going full ghost mode after tonight assuming my account isn't deleted...lol
> 
> There are a lot of folks on here who have been very kind to me and I consider friends even though we have never met...they know who they are.


No doubt in my mind that you'll figure this out, AD.
When it gets a little tough just ask yourself "What would Mark Bavarro do?"
You know your dogs best. 
You got this.


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## mylissyk

I talked to a friend today who was having much the same problem with her two dogs who previously had gotten along. She ended up starting the instigator on doggy prozac, and was happy to tell me that seems to have resolved the conflicts.

I sincerely hope you find a solution as easily. I do think neutering Max is an important step. I just seems like getting to the teenage stage has set him off on this aggressive kick.


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## Yaichi's Mom

I first found this forum back in July of 2012 when my beloved bridge girl Yaichi collapsed. 

I was frantic, did not know what to do and was looking for this community for help. "Reader's Digest" version of my story with Yaichi was that she was misdiagnosed by our current DVM and was bleeding out from hemangiosarcoma. I was looking for help, support and guidance from loving canine parents and those who had a long history with the breed we love to help me deal with what I was facing when I had no idea what to do. 

I have also come to this community to seek help when my Brisby broke her canine at the age of 1 1/2 and I was told she need a root canal that would set me back $3K.

Brisby also has urinary incontinence. I have also sought help in addressing this and my journey with her in trying to give her the best life possible with the cards we have been dealt, with hopefully insight from you all. 

Sadly for all of the above for me, there was little if no response. 

My point is this, specifically for this thread: 

AD came to us all with a distressing situation for Max, Puffy, Jack and his family. 

I am assuming that he was attempting to show us what had happened at one moment in time between Max and Puffy so that we would be able to help him see what perhaps he does not see. I had no opportunity to see if as it was removed.

Is this not what a forum like this should be? To allow folks to share what they are going through? 

Should this forum not be a place where we help one another, attempt to put ourselves in someone else's shoes and not freak out when we see something we don't like or disagree with without discounting and lambasting/reporting a member? 

Should this not be a place where we learn, grow and perhaps reach outside of our paradigm and consider other POV and the intent and reason behind? 

I have seen several posts regarding "forum rules". 

That said I understand all internet discussion forums need parameters for acceptable interaction....with utmost discretion despite "said rules". 

I have been a forum owner/Admin in another genre for over a decade. I very well know all the pitfalls of rules, members crying and demanding "breach of said rules" or understood "etiquette" and/or what some find "offensive". 

I guess this forum needs to figure out what it wants to be. Is it truly a space of free expression and pleas of help, regardless of if we agree or don't? 

Does this forum truly want to offer help when what one posts is not "pretty" with no mal intent? 

Do we judge or lambaste members for doing what they, do or offer help within or without our paradigm without judgement? 


AD, a long standing member here, and much loved and appreciated by most with sharing his journey with his beloved Axl. and now with Puffy, Max and Jack was reaching out for help and support.....and what happened? 

Life is a life long journey of learning. 

I would hope we open our hearts, our cognitive abilities to both embrace and understand that none of us have all the answers. 

IMHO we should to seek to foster and enrich a community that seeks the best information and support for all members here with the goal for the best for our chosen beloved breed with the intent to attempt the best possible life, outcomes, health for our beloved GR companions, regardless of what they are facing.

I am probably on the ban list by posting the above and if so, so be it. 

AD, thank you for sharing your numerous journeys. 

I am hoping that you are allowed/be willing to share the serious situation that you are dealing with right now with Max and Puffy, so that all can learn and help if possible.

Best wishes to you...hugs and love from Brisby and i......


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## Tennyson

Yaichi's Mom said:


> I first found this forum back in July of 2012 when my beloved bridge girl Yaichi collapsed.
> 
> Brisby also has urinary incontinence. I have also sought help in addressing this and my journey with her in trying to give her the best life possible with the cards we have been dealt, with hopefully insight from you all. Sadly for all of the above for me, there was little if no response.


That's just not true. Really surprised you would post that.


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## GoldenCamper

You see AD, you even got Tenny out of the closet so I forbid you to leave.


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## Yaichi's Mom

Tennyson said:


> That's just not true. Really surprised you would post that.


Apologies Tennyson, you were one of the few that responded to my plea for help and I thank you profusely for that.:--heart: I did NOT forget and am very grateful for you and the handful of folks who responded. 

We are still struggling with the urinary incontinence now for quite a few years with the assistance of several DVMs and we are managing and doing all we can to help Brisby live a wonderful normal life, albeit not what I ever expected, however I love her to pieces. 

My post was not intended to be about me or Brisby, but to attempt to illustrate in my frame of reference, right or wrong, what I hope this community is or hopefully is about. 

This thread is not about me or Brisby, it is about what AD is facing right now with his boys. 

I don't truly know what you are surprised about what I posted. Perhaps you can enlighten me without derailing AD's thread. PM is good.


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## Tennyson

GoldenCamper said:


> You see AD, you even got Tenny out of the closet so I forbid you to leave.


..................


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## alphadude

I guess I have no choice since Tennyson spoke up, those are the "rules" apparently.

OK let's all take it down a notch. I appreciate all the support in the last 8 hours both on here and in PM. Some things were said probably better left unsaid, and tempers flared - at least mine did. I am the first to admit it. I am stressed out trying to figure out a way out of or around this problem short of shipping one of these guys out of here which I do NOT regard as an acceptable solution. Were that to become the only viable solution, Murph is correct, it is Max that should go because Puffy was here first and I owe him that loyalty, even though Max is clearly more suited to my lifestyle. That said, it's not going to come to that.

YM please don't get yourself banned or jammed up on my account although your sentiment is greatly appreciated. 

The boys had another go about an hour ago...relax, there was a sliding glass door between them and I *sure didn't film and UL it to YT* after the last fiasco. Puffy was outside, wanted to come in and Max was inside with me they saw each other through the glass and it was on. I was able to remove Max from his position by the collar and make it plain that his behavior as not acceptable. No violence, hitting or anything of the sort was involved. There was however extremely loud yelling and gesturing on MY part. He stopped. Whatever else may be going on with him, he knows he must respect me.

That actually got me thinking, I am nothing if not resourceful, and I always strive to think OUT of the box. Perhaps I could use the double glass partition as a tool to desensitize them to each other's presence with zero chance of actual physical contact. Humor me for a moment...suppose I were to get an air horn...one of those really loud obnoxious things that people sometimes use @ football games. Then I let them see each other thru the glass and the SECOND either one takes a dominant posture, I blast the air horn and scare the crap out of them. The theory is that I can possibly condition them over time to associate dominant posturing as a prelude to a fight as resulting in a very loud frightening noise - a negative consequence that they will then begin to avoid. It's downright Pavlovian. Now I KNOW, that most nowadays are advocates of positive only reinforcement training methodology but to my way of thinking, this has progressed WAAAAAYYY beyond the point where a treat of the even highest value is going to deter either one of them when they get in the zone. 

What say the braintrust??

P.S. Puffy is off to the vet to be checked out and have a thyroid panel done tomorrow as well as discuss him being neutered. Max is going Thursday.


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## jennretz

I think you run the risk of making it worse. They will associate something negative when they see each other. That’s my $0.02 worth. I’m sure the ones who are for corrections will tell you why my idea is idiotic. I still think a professional with experience in this type of behavior will help. 

I wish you luck AD and to Max and Puffy and Jack.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GoldenCamper

Braintrust? Too bad you missed the forum before it became Disney.


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## alphadude

Hilarious. I bet THAT'LL go over well...lol

Correction GONE already!


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## alphadude

jennretz said:


> I think you run the risk of making it worse. They will associate something negative when they see each other. That’s my $0.02 worth. I’m sure the ones who are for corrections will tell you why my idea is idiotic. I still think a professional with experience in this type of behavior will help.
> 
> I wish you luck AD and to Max and Puffy and Jack.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can see your point but I think timing is extremely important - in fact the key. Not when they see each other, *only* when they see each other and begin to posture aggressively. Hopefully they will be smart enough to see the distinction. 

Professional help has by no means been ruled out, I just haven't yet found anyone who inspires the least bit of confidence yet. Several of the high end behaviorists that were recommended to me (based in Manhattan) BTW, seemingly do not even deal with aggression issues. If you want your dog to stop counter surfing or be house trained, they're on it. I'd love to see the people who pay $300/hr for those services....mind boggling.


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## murphy1

This may be way off topic Tennyson, but what is with the upside down American flag? Have I missed this in the past? Please explain?


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## mylissyk

Serious question, have you even talked to any of the "behaviorist" you've been referred to? Since dog aggression is the number one behavior issue that needs a behaviorist, there has to be someone who deals with it in your area.

Have you looked for a board certified veterinary behaviorist? Try here:

Member Directory « ACVB


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## alphadude

mylissyk said:


> Serious question, have you even talked to any of the "behaviorist" you've been referred to? Since dog aggression is the number one behavior issue that needs a behaviorist, there has to be someone who deals with it in your area.
> 
> Have you looked for a board certified veterinary behaviorist? Try here:
> 
> Member Directory « ACVB


This is the only one that comes up for NY or NJ

https://www.animalerc.com/location/animal-behavior-clinic-of-aera/

Reviews are split 50-50 between good and terrible. Not exactly inspiring confidence.


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## golfgal

I got 'reprimanded' for saying something when someone was going to be driving while picking up their puppy, so I think we all have our moments when something is taken the wrong way. We feel your pain. 

Moving on - There's a lady who wrote a series of books (Calming Signals) and did videos on dealing with dog aggression - Turid Rugaas - I think they were out before I was born as they are super old. I remember reading the books and watching a whole bunch of videos from her. The SAR I volunteered with was mostly reactive dogs so I wanted to know how to read dogs. One thing I do recall is that it takes time and it takes a really long time for dogs to get rid of stress. The more that Puffy and Max are interacting is just keeping them at all time high levels of stress and likely making things worse. You may think its only something from today or yesterday but meanwhile its a reaction to a build up of stress. It didn't develop overnight and it won't be fixed overnight. The bonus of dealing with a professional is they will see what you are doing and paying attention to every area of the dog where you are likely just trying to keep the dog under control and likely to miss something. 

Secondly - NY has great service dog organizations with really experienced trainers. Call them and ask who they would recommend you to talk you. Sometimes paying the fees is the only requirement to get listed on an association membership. Getting some guidance towards people who are good may help you fast-track the vetting process. 

Sometimes the best thing you can do is nothing until you consult with experts and come up with a plan. Don't try to solve this yourself as you may make things worse inadvertently. It will not kill either dog to be isolated from each other for awhile. Think of it as time to spend quality time with each dog on their with a family member only. 

And stock up on lots of red wine, it helps most things.


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## Siandvm

What about here? Find out about LIVS Behavior Department

It’s where I did my internship, although full disclosure: there was no behavior department when I was there. It does say she does deal with interdog aggression.


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## mylissyk

You need to talk to them and decide for yourself, reading reviews is not enough. Did your vet have any suggestions for a trainer to contact?

I'm begging you, get a trainer, a behaviorist, someone with experience to give you input. 

Your idea of using the glass door and scaring them if you see posturing will backfire. The only way to fix this is to create positive associations, not negative ones. They need to start seeing each other as a positive presence and if they get an air horn blown at them when they are already hyped up it will only make them worse. 

If good things happen when they see each other and they start to get that idea you might have something to work with, but you need professional help with this. They've gone way beyond the average or even above average pet owner's knowledge level.


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## Wicky

I really hope you can get the help you need. It must be a really stressful for everyone in your home at the moment. After an instance of reactivity it can take more than 72hr for a dogs stress level to begin to return to normal. During that time any additional arousal or stressful experience will keep them above threshold making them more likely to react. Ideally setting things up so both puffy and max avoid any positive or negative instances of arousal/reactivity for a few days might be good for them. Although I except this may be challenging as they are in one home. I do hope you find a vet behaviourist that you trust. This is not because you won’t be able to fix it yourself, but because you are highly invested, emotionally, in your dogs, they are your family. In such circumstances sometimes a different set of eyes can see something we don’t - perhaps Improving the situation more quickly.


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## Jessie'sGirl

My heart goes out to you and your family, living in this situation. 
I think you need to separate the dogs physically , don't even let them see each other. Give everyone a few days to de stress 
Both you and the dogs need this. 
When you take Puffy to the vet, you may be able to get a referral to a good behaviourist.


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## Claudia M

My two cents on this. For quite some time I have been warned of having same sex intact dogs in the house. However we have been fortunate to have both intact males (2 to 3 at the same time) and intact females (2 to 3 at the same time) in our home without a problem. 

So my experience with this is not my own, is from the people surrounding me. My obedience teacher who has all her dogs trained very well has two females that she has to keep crated in different corners of her home and cannot allow them together. When we adopted Darcy we were aware that when she went back to the breeder Darcy and her mom had continuous fights. That mother daughter link was gone after 4 years even though she has visited the breeder occasionally in those 4 years. 

I feel like sometimes, just like with humans the chemistry is just not there. And you can take all the introduction precautions and you still have the same results. We introduced Rose and Darcy outside in our yard and they were friends forever. When we brought Belle home it was in the middle of a snow storm and there was no way to get them introduced on middle ground. Brought her inside, put her down and that was it. She started herding the other two looking for milk. For 4 months she was crated when we were not at home because the other two never put her in her place when playing.

Those are just two examples that I have seen in the recent years where the dogs that did not get along (and IMHO neutering or spaying has nothing to do with it) where they either had to be separated in the same house or one re-homed to a family where the chemistry was agreeable for them to flourish. 

Last thought, when speaking with a conformation instructor that knew both Darcy and her mom she mentioned the fact that Darcy's mom had cancer. It is possible that Darcy felt that before the humans knew and that may have caused the fights that did not happen on her previous visits there.


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## alphadude

Claudia M said:


> Last thought, when speaking with a conformation instructor that knew both Darcy and her mom she mentioned the fact that Darcy's mom had cancer. It is possible that Darcy felt that before the humans knew and that may have caused the fights that did not happen on her previous visits there.


I was wondering the same thing!


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## Tosh's Legacy

This could be a possibility: with Puffy being the older dog who had a position in your family before Max arrived, Max may be maturing to the stage where he is challenging Puffy's seniority. In addition, I think I remember reading that Puffy has some issues with his hips (or whatever) where he is not as physically strong as Max. With Puffy growing older, Max may be sensing that Puffy is weaker and may be posturing to overthrow Puffy's position.Puffy may be reacting to protect himself, thus becoming more offensive in his behavior.

We had a situation similar to yours with our boys. It was recommended that we rehome one of them, but for many reasons that we felt were for everyone's benefit, we chose to keep both. I walked the boys separately (one entirely alone so that I could work with him; the other with one of the girls); put partitions in the house so that they could not interact without strict supervision but could still see each other and (G-- forbid!) used a shock collar with a room size transmitter as extra protection if I had to go shopping, etc.
to keep the younger, more aggressive one from jumping the partition.

We strictly followed who was boss in the house: my husband first, me, the "first" dog, then the new male and female. We also used a LOT of love, patience and positive reinforcement to help strengthen each one's understanding of their place in our home.
There was no favoritism shown, but the "top dog" was always the first served his meals, treats and affection.

Believe me, it was trying at times. Somehow, it all worked. The details are too much to write here, but the dogs my neighbors bet that I could not control have become healthy, well-adjusted dogs and are 13.5 years old now. The two males bonded very well after time, and the younger, more aggressive one actually became the one who warned me when the older one was going to have a seizure! 

Being the tough New York man that you say you are, you are determined to win this challenge! Don't anybody tell you that you can't do something, because you will prove them wrong. I have no doubt that you will overcome this challenge, but don't let your ego and your toughness cause harm to either one of your boys. Either do something similar to what we did, or rehome the younger dog who is challenging Puffy. Puffy does not deserve to lose his long time home. The younger one will adjust to a new home much easier.

Axl was a great dog for you. But he was Axl: the one and only Axl. Please don't try to make Max into another Axl. Maybe his breed doesn't need any more encouragement to become a tough dog. That could possibly make him into an aggressive, unpredictable monster. As you already know, different breeds are bred for specific traits -- it may be a breed thing. Who knows?

Just some different angles to consider ... nothing critical of you intended.


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## Anele

alphadude said:


> Professional help has by no means been ruled out, I just haven't yet found anyone who inspires the least bit of confidence yet. Several of the high end behaviorists that were recommended to me (based in Manhattan) BTW, seemingly do not even deal with aggression issues. If you want your dog to stop counter surfing or be house trained, they're on it. I'd love to see the people who pay $300/hr for those services....mind boggling.


I worked with two trainers (privately and in a group) who came highly recommended and worked with a vet behaviorist-- one of them told me they were the "top tier" trainers. And, of course, very expensive. 

They were both awful. The private one laughed condescendingly at my dog for 1.5 hours, allowing him to practice bad behavior the whole time and gave me actual misinformation. Never followed up with me as she was supposed to per our contract. Only positive thing she said about my dog was that he had a nice head. The kicker is she worked for years with our local golden rescue. The other one, in a class, "joked" that my dog needed drugs and never managed to get him to not jump on her-- ever. 

Thankfully, I found trainers who didn't have the same alleged "top tier" reputation, were fabulous and no, my dog doesn't need drugs, etc. 

My point is, I completely agree with you that "high end" does not equate to "high quality." You need someone else who thinks out-of-the-box like you do, and is willing to get really invested in this problem. Not just, "Your time is up... pay now." Maybe your breeder would have ideas of someone who fits the bill? People from your local GRC? Or this may be crazy, but check on a different breed board. I've checked the German Shepherd forum, and they have a designated section for aggression issues. Terrier people might be a good resource, too. Sure, goldens are dogs and can have aggression issues, but sadly... it's rare for people to discuss it openly like they do in other breeds because it doesn't fit the standard the way it does in other breeds.


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## AmberSunrise

If you go the trainer route, I would recommend you inquire and only work with trainers who are fully insured ... this (in my eyes at least) lends credence to the seriousness in which they take their abilities and a certain length of time that they have been offering their services.

As in any other animal training service, anyone can say they are a trainer regardless of whether they have interned with a specialized trainer or not. Most obedience trainers (I say this with love BTW) cannot handle true aggression since the causes and issues can not only run deep, there are many different types of aggression that need to be addressed differently.

ETA: my first obedience trainer did specialize in aggression. He left that area due to the high liabilities involved once he had a steady following of obedience & schutzund (sp) clients and referred people to the man he interned under.


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## Megora

To add to what Sharon said above - somebody who took an online or petstore based dog training course is not going to be any help with sorting out dog behavior issues like this. Understanding dog behavior and experience with working with aggressive dogs is something that is needed and frequently comes with many years of working with dogs, particularly dogs with these issues. 

We used to train with somebody (actually my sister still does) who had originally been a dog trainer for police dog and/or that was the plan. She did not like the rough handling of the dogs and got out of that area. 

Like Sharon mentioned above - she had to have major insurance to cover any incidents. And it wasn't like a dog who had aggression was just allowed to attend group classes. There were many private sessions and in home consults that she did with problem dogs. And this was not necessarily like today where majority of pet dogs coming in for dog training might be lab mixes or such. This was back then when a higher focus was on purebred dogs getting problems sorted out. She was a golden retriever breeder and got a lot of goldens in who were aggressive or dog aggressive. This was many years ago. You also had breeds like rottweilers, GSD's, dobies, etc who were at their very worst at the time as well.

I DO think that any obedience training LONG TERM will be beneficial to the young dog. And this even includes group classes down the road, because he will get better with care and focus (by you).


----------



## Tosh's Legacy

How's the situation going with Max and Puffy? Hope there have not been any more knock-down/drag-outs with them.


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## alphadude

Tosh's Legacy said:


> How's the situation going with Max and Puffy? Hope there have not been any more knock-down/drag-outs with them.


There has been no contact of any kind between them. The last time they were together was the now 'infamous' muzzled, noisy, head butt contest, which was 7 days ago. They were both to the vet this past week in preparation for the 'snip snip'.

Got some potentially rather disturbing news regarding Max from the vet though. After manipulating his left knee she said that it felt very arthritic (clicking like crazy) and frankly not much better than Puffy's whom she had seen the day before. Additionally, she is concerned about his right hip. Obviously, Xrays are needed (and will be done this week) to confirm these potential issues, but I can tell you, he was not pleased when she was manipulating them. No, he did not get nasty, matter of fact he was a perfect patient, if a bit squirmy, but you could tell he was not comfortable.

It's IRONIC that the only structurally sound golden, I've had of the three, came from a pet store...

This afternoon, a friend contacted me, the one with the golden pup that Puffy had used as a chew toy back in late August of 16 when Ax was right at the end. Anyway, his golden, Brock, is a 20 month old, intact, submissive male. Actually he is even smaller than Max is, and a very mellow little guy. I told them to swing by. I wanted to see how Max would react to him. 

Sure enough, in about 30 seconds, Max was circling him in an aggressive posture. Brock, with tail tucked, hunkered down to the ground, flat on his belly in submission and Max attempted to attack him anyway. This time however, I was *quicker* and grabbed him by the collar just as he lunged but *before* he could lay into Brock. I escorted him by the collar, into the house and away from the fearful dog. 

Before anyone asks, *yes*, I did in fact try to distract, break his focus the second I saw his posture with a pennies in a can. He *totally ignored it*...

Forgot to mention, Max was *well exercised today* also. Had him at the beach for about 45 minutes and even let him off leash for the first time in a while running around catching discs, chasing balls and swimming, right up until he decided to take off after some ducks and made me chase him, after which playtime was OVER.


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## Jessie'sGirl

That's very upsetting news about Max. I hope the X-ray findings turn out better than expected. Pain could be a contributing factor to his behaviour.


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## LynnC

I am so sorry to hear about Max. I agree him being in pain probably added to the situation with Puffy. Maybe its another piece of the puzzle. Good luck!


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## Siandvm

I’m very sorry to hear about Max! At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this is even more of a reason to find a veterinary behaviorist! The potential combinations of pain, hormones, behavior triggers and learned behaviors is something which can best be addressed by a medical professional. 

Have you checked out Long Island Veterinary Specialists like I linked in a previous post (http://www.livs.org)? Another advantage of going there might be that they have surgeons who would be able to asssess Max’s situation. Dr. Marino, who is the chief of staff, was there when I did my internship there and he is excellent!


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## mylissyk

alphadude said:


> There has been no contact of any kind between them. The last time they were together was the now 'infamous' muzzled, noisy, head butt contest, which was 7 days ago. They were both to the vet this past week in preparation for the 'snip snip'.
> 
> Got some potentially rather disturbing news regarding Max from the vet though. After manipulating his left knee she said that it felt very arthritic (clicking like crazy) and frankly not much better than Puffy's whom she had seen the day before. Additionally, she is concerned about his right hip. Obviously, Xrays are needed (and will be done this week) to confirm these potential issues, but I can tell you, he was not pleased when she was manipulating them. No, he did not get nasty, matter of fact he was a perfect patient, if a bit squirmy, but you could tell he was not comfortable.
> 
> It's IRONIC that the only structurally sound golden, I've had of the three, came from a pet store...
> 
> This afternoon, a friend contacted me, the one with the golden pup that Puffy had used as a chew toy back in late August of 16 when Ax was right at the end. Anyway, his golden, Brock, is a 20 month old, intact, submissive male. Actually he is even smaller than Max is, and a very mellow little guy. I told them to swing by. I wanted to see how Max would react to him.
> 
> Sure enough, in about 30 seconds, Max was circling him in an aggressive posture. Brock, with tail tucked, hunkered down to the ground, flat on his belly in submission and Max attempted to attack him anyway. This time however, I was *quicker* and grabbed him by the collar just as he lunged but *before* he could lay into Brock. I escorted him by the collar, into the house and away from the fearful dog.
> 
> Before anyone asks, *yes*, I did in fact try to distract, break his focus the second I saw his posture with a pennies in a can. He *totally ignored it*...
> 
> Forgot to mention, Max was *well exercised today* also. Had him at the beach for about 45 minutes and even let him off leash for the first time in a while running around catching discs, chasing balls and swimming, right up until he decided to take off after some ducks and made me chase him, after which playtime was OVER.


AD have you talked to Max's breeder? Maybe find out if any of his littermates are having behavior issues? 

I hope the xrays give you some good news. If he needs knee surgery that's not an activity ending procedure. Robbie was rock solid on his knee after surgery and ran and played without any problems for another 10 years. I know this is all just so disheartening, but there are positive courses of action you can look into.


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## murphy1

A note on LI Vet Specialists. About ten years ago I made an appt with Dr Marino for Shamus, my mastiff. He had an ununited anconeal process, which never kept him from doing anything. When I arrived I was seen my a very young Vet, a nice guy. Went thru the exam, checked out everything. Then Dr Marino came in for about 40 seconds. He may be a great surgeon but is too busy to spend time with his patients. This is MY experience with this doctor.
BTW when you have Max xrayed, have them do it when is under anesthesia for his neutering. Something my Vet usually does.


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## Wenderwoman

I'm so sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time. I can't really give you any answers, just some suggestions. First, I have heard that a dog in pain can become aggressive, they can also be more protective. So, if any of the dogs are in pain, you need to get that under control.

I think you definitely need to train the dogs, especially the aggressive dog. Would you say your dog is high strung? You can train a dog to relax if he is high strung. It's kind of simple, you just treat them when they are extremely calm, almost falling asleep and say "good boy calm." In fact, if you do decide to very, very slowly reintroduce them then anytime the aggressive dog is calm around the other dog then it should be treated. If you can never get them to that point together then I don't think they will resolve it themselves. Though, if it were me, they'd be crated just like if I was introducing a new dog. Also, I think you need to watch your energy because you should be commanding but not angry or fearful yourself. The dog will feed off your energy so you have to be calm assertive. I have one dog that is very sensitive to my energy and the minute I start laughing hysterically or raise my voice, she right there and going along with my energy. So, if that is the case, then you need to really work on being calm yourself. Anytime a dog starts staring at another dog, they need to be interrupted. I've found that with my dogs, that's usually one of the first subtle signs they are having a disagreement. I'm sure you know the other obvious signs. 

To be clear though, I think they should be separated and I think the aggressive dog should be crated when you put them together. Then ignore is insane behavior, wait for him to calm and then treat him. Once he seems a little comfortable then you can maybe muzzel and reintroduce. You should do this for quite awhile until he doesn't even look at the other dog. * In fact, I think you should train them not to look at the other dog.* If you put them together then any time the aggressive dog tries to look at the other dog, tell them "no" and "leave it" firmly. I would stand between them and not allow the aggressive dog to engage with the other dog at all. If he tries to look, say "no" and "leave it" and "go lie down." If he tries to move around you, step in front and block and again say "no" and "leave it" and "go lie down." When they relax and lie down, then you can treat them. If they won't relax, they should be crated again. I think if the dog continues to be fixated on the other dog and you can't break that, then it is definitely not ready to be around the other dog. It should be clear to the dog that the only thing they are allowed to do around the other dog is ignore the other dog and be calm.

If they got along once, then I think there is a chance that you can train the aggressive dog to 1) relax, 2) listen to you and 3) be relaxed around other dogs.

Finally, one last thing, if you ever do get them to a point where they can be calm around each other. They may try to interact again which is up to you to decide if they are okay. At this point they should understand that you have to "approve" of them approaching each other and if you so much as say "boo" they have to stop what they are doing. You should give a warning to the aggressive dog that you are watching them. I have a min pin that is a notorious little ankle biter, especially when there is excitement. For some crazy reason he goes into bonker mode and starts going for my Golden's ankle. This happens a lot when I come home so I often find myself immediately just saying his name with a stern voice so that he knows not to even start with his business. So, you may need to do something like that every time you see them or as often as you think they need a reminder to control themselves.


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## alphadude

mylissyk said:


> AD have you talked to Max's breeder? Maybe find out if any of his littermates are having behavior issues?
> 
> I hope the xrays give you some good news. If he needs knee surgery that's not an activity ending procedure. Robbie was rock solid on his knee after surgery and ran and played without any problems for another 10 years. I know this is all just so disheartening, but there are positive courses of action you can look into.


I have spoken to Max's breeder many times, including recently regarding this situation. I was not entirely comfortable with his suggested method of handling this situation, and I'll leave it at that. 

Mike made no mention of any littermates having similar issues. He in fact kept Max's full 'brother' who looks like a carbon copy of him. Truth be told, he *did *specifically pick out Max as the 'go getter' out of 2 litters and said he's likely turn out to be a 'lot of dog'. I felt completely confident I could handle him without any problem because of my prior experience with his predecessor. The one factor I apparently left out of the equation was that Ax was an 'only dog' during his formative years. That said, I am positive it would not have been a problem, because Ax was a true alpha, and as such, he wouldn't have needed to continuously try to assert dominance. He just WAS dominant, and other dogs readily picked up on it. Even my wife who is definitely not as attuned to canine posturing as I am, often commented how she noticed that other dogs seemed to 'respect him' when she walked him places. He would lay down the law *once* if need be, and that would have been the end of it. When Ax schooled another dog *out of necessity*, the other dog *STAYED *schooled. I have told the story many times on this forum about my friend's 120 lb lab 'puppy' that he insisted needed to hang out with, watch Ax catch discs, and learn from him. I knew it was a bad idea and said as much, but my friend insisted. In about 30 seconds after meeting on the beach, the lab (Cosmo) who towered over Ax, in his 15 month old exuberance, decided to jump on Ax's back. Cosmo was on the ground bleeding in three separate places in about a second and a half. At that time, Ax immediately broke off the "lesson" without having to be told to, and trotted away. He did not press the issue or continue harming the helpless dog. He made his point and moved on, it was *not an attack*, it was a lesson in respect. To his credit, my friend chalked it up as a learning experience for Cosmo and the two dogs interacted for 2 hours afterward without any further problem because he was taught in canine language to respect Axl's 'personal space'. Puffy who certainly is at least partially culpable for this current situation with some aggression issues of his own, *KNEW* better than to try any of that crap with Ax. There was *never* any real violence between them in over 5 years and they happily play fought multiple times a day, every day.

Pic below of Ax and Cosmo Labor day 2014...two years to the day before he died.

I am hoping his knee / hip problems turn out to be much alarm about nothing. He certainly didn't appear to have any issues at all when I was exercising him yesterday, He was leaping in the air catching balls and discs, and *easily* leaping onto a 4' high platform and back down again with reckless abandon.


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## puddles everywhere

I had a chihuahua that was the same way... ever seen a 6 pound dog chase a 150lb Akita across the yard? I used to call him my "personal bubble" trainer, he may have been small but was never challenged and always respected.
He too was an awesome dog, man I miss that little dude!

I hope you are able to find the solution, it's not fun having to rotate your time and space just to keep everyone safe. Good luck on the surgeries and medical issues that have come up. Prayers are a solution comes out of all of this!


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## alphadude

puddles everywhere said:


> I had a chihuahua that was the same way... ever seen a 6 pound dog chase a 150lb Akita across the yard? I used to call him my "personal bubble" trainer, he may have been small but was never challenged and always respected.
> He too was an awesome dog, man I miss that little dude!
> 
> I hope you are able to find the solution, it's not fun having to rotate your time and space just to keep everyone safe. Good luck on the surgeries and medical issues that have come up. Prayers are a solution comes out of all of this!


Completely understand. I can't even count the number of times I have been told 'there's no such thing as an alpha male in the domestic canine world', or 'that is an outmoded, debunked theory'. Call it whatever you want, I *know* a very dominant dog when I see one, and that's exactly what Ax was. He was not fearful of ANYTHING, and he was not aggressive unless he was given a reason to be. 

I vividly remember another incident where this clown was being dragged along by his MASSIVE 150+ lb bull mastiff trying to clicker train it with little apparent success. Ax was catching discs and I knew this looked like trouble, so I called him to me. I can see this guy, who was bigger than I am, was having trouble controlling his dog who by now had seen Ax and was growling menacingly and trying to pull his way over to us. Axl just stood there next to me, staring at the mastiff like he hadn't a care in the world, but alert as always. At that point the guy says I hate to ask but can you guys move away a bit because I don't like the way my dog is looking at yours and I'm trying to control him. I replied, yeah I don't like they way he's looking at him either and you'd BETTER control him. Ax and I simply walked away. We saw them probably half a dozen more times after that and it was almost always the same scenario, this guy madly clicking away trying to get that monster under control. I made certain we gave them a wide berth, but Ax really paid them no mind...at all.

Your chihuahua was apparently one as well.

Thanks for the well wishes, they are appreciated.


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## Yaichi's Mom

Thinking of you AD and of course Puffy, Max and Jack.

You are in a difficult, heart wrenching and stressful situation. 

I so wish I had a magic wand or something useful to add or say, however I don't. 

I trust that if anyone is able to find a resolution, you will...best wishes and hugs....know that I am thinking of you all.


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## alphadude

Yaichi's Mom said:


> Thinking of you AD and of course Puffy, Max and Jack.
> 
> You are in a difficult, heart wrenching and stressful situation.
> 
> I so wish I had a magic wand or something useful to add or say, however I don't.
> 
> I trust that if anyone is able to find a resolution, you will...best wishes and hugs....know that I am thinking of you all.


Thanks YM, you're the best!


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## nolefan

alphadude said:


> ...
> 
> I am hoping his knee / hip problems turn out to be much alarm about nothing. He certainly didn't appear to have any issues at all when I was exercising him yesterday, He was leaping in the air catching balls and discs, and *easily* leaping onto a 4' high platform and back down again with reckless abandon.


Did I miss something? Have you had xrays and diagnosis that he is cleared for this kind of work?


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## alphadude

nolefan said:


> Did I miss something? Have you had xrays and diagnosis that he is cleared for this kind of work?


Nope he hasn't had the xrays yet. Matter of fact, I'm leaving work shortly to take him to the vet because he's 'deathly ill' according to my daughter. Of *course* he is, he was to the vet last week.

I am increasingly convinced that the best way to keep your dog healthy, is to keep him AWAY from the vet as much as possible.


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## Jessie'sGirl

Oh my, that sounds serious. Hope he's OK.
I do agree with Nolefan, I wouldn't do any more activity that involves jumping until X-rays are done. And I am speaking from personal experience here. I have a very arthritic knee, I can walk for miles, but one little jump will set me up for days of pain.


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## Yaichi's Mom

alphadude said:


> Nope he hasn't had the xrays yet. Matter of fact, I'm leaving work shortly to take him to the vet because he's 'deathly ill' according to my daughter. Of *course* he is, he was to the vet last week.
> 
> I am increasingly convinced that the best way to keep your dog healthy, is to keep him AWAY from the vet as much as possible.


Worried about this "deathly ill" stuff with Max....and about you AD and how you are coping with another "icing" on not a very nice cake, so to speak.

Hopefully all is ok with Max physically. Please update when you have opportunity.

So what was Max "subjected" to at his last vet visit? Was he treated or injected with anything? 

Sadly I am convinced with what you write above as well, relative to "traditional veterinary medicine" and human allopathic medicine as well. 

I have had a homeopathic DVM for the last 3 years.

My sincere suggestion to you is to seek a trained homeopathic DVM in your area. 

Homeopathic treatment does not just deal with fixing a "symptom". It is a modality that looks at whole body health, behavior, demeanor etc. and bringing all back in to balance ( whole body health) for the *individual *dog...not just "one size fits all" for all dogs or cats...symptom = RX....treat symptom, make it go away, yet rarely look for root cause of manifest.

I cannot even begin to describe what a difference moving to a homeopathic DVM has made for Brisby and for all of her issues over a short 5 years of life.

It is a lot of work for a "pet parent" as now one has to observe anything and everything, however well worth it in my experience. I can write more about this if you or anyone is interested.

You are fortunate in the sense that you live in a geographic area where access to these professionals is more than most.

Referrals | Pitcairn Education Programs 

Hoping is all as well as it can be...sending you support,love and good thoughts.


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## golfgal

Thinking of you and the family and hoping the deathly ill was an exaggeration.


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## puddles everywhere

Maybe it's semantics but always equated "alpha" as being the one with authority. The one who not only makes the rules but enforces them on to others. LOL this was my job 
My chi was not the alpha dog, he made no attempt to control the behavior of other dogs and never wanted to be in charge of anything but himself. But he had a really strong sense of who he was. He had a bucket load of confidence, an internal sense of strength. His body language was calm and strong... a natural leader that didn't need inforcing. It sounds like Max was the same way. 
Maybe this is the root of your problem. How frightened your boys must be... followers trying to fight for the leadership position and not having the tools to do the job. 
I'm not qualified to give advice on all this and hope you can find a good behaviorist to help restore balance in your home. Max left a huge hole in the dynamics of your home as well as your heart. There is something special about a truly confident dog.


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## murphy1

Wow puddles , you just described my dogue de bordeaux, Shamus to a tee. Strange dogs wouldn't come within 10 feet of him if they were off leash. They stopped in their tracks while he stood his ground, no growl or bark. He was one confidident guy! I miss him alot.


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## murphy1

AD we need an update on Max!


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## LynnC

alphadude said:


> I am increasingly convinced that the best way to keep your dog healthy, is to keep him AWAY from the vet as much as possible.


The same goes for humans. STAY AWAY FROM HOSPITALS UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY !!!!


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## alphadude

Max update:

Max is OK in relative terms. He had puked a few times during the night apparently while he was locked out of the bedroom since it was Puffy's turn - they now alternate. Looked like just yellow foamy bile - not food. This was known to me prior to heading off to work. He looked a bit under the weather and it was known to me that he had refused his breakfast - very u Max like. 

My 24 year old daughter who fancies herself Max's 'mother' called me and said that he was 'deathly ill' and that he needed to go to a vet right away. It was a bit of an exaggeration, he didn't look like he was at death's door but he didn't look normal either - very lethargic and still not eating. 

Anyway, took him right down to the vet, got *no definitive answers *and had to nix their plans to start with xrays to check for foreign objects, blood panels, and all sorts of RIDICULOUS steps in an effort to send me home with a $500-1000 bill. She also floated the idea of gastric torsion "which she wouldn't be able to necessarily feel because he is a deep chested dog". Surprised she didn't suggest exploratory surgery. I said well BLOAT as it's commonly called has a very specific set of symptoms for example unproductive retching, "reverse coughing", restlessness, swelling etc. NONE of which he is displaying, so why would you suggest that? I basically said isn't the MOST likely culprit a simple virus. Well....could be but we really should....at which point I cut her right off. She then suggested a subcutaneous infusion to "combat dehydration" - and I pointedly asked - "is he dehydrated because I see no evidence of that" and I *definitely know how to check* since my wife is, and my mother was an RN. Her reply was "well, maybe very slightly". 

*SIGH* this is why I *LOATHE *vets...always trying to upsell and pay the rent. Call me a jaded NYer but I know a line of bull when I hear it. I feel badly for people like my sister who allows these people to mercilessly rip her off.

Anyway, Max got the $50 water injection and a shot of pepcid to calm his stomach, I got a $120 bill and considered myself lucky. Got him home, still no appetite, but he perked up a bit. Only 1 further incidence of vomiting some bile. The rest of the night was uneventful. This morning, no further vomiting and he ate the small bland meal of steamed chicken and white rice we offered him. From what I heard today from my younger daughter, he is running around rough housing with Jack. 

I also found out that my neighbor's JRT is just getting over essentially the same thing and they have a REALLY irritating habit of letting him all over my lawn to do his business. 

Now I can go back to working on the problem at hand.


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## rabernet

Glad to hear that Max seems to be feeling better today!


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## sophieanne

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has vet "upselling" issues. I'm glad Max is on the mend.


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## Macca

Sounds like there is never a dull moment at your house. I have no experience/advice on the behavioral problems with Max and Puffy, but hope you can find a workable solution, and maybe have a lull in all the mayhem.


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## alphadude

Macca said:


> Sounds like there is never a dull moment at your house. I have no experience/advice on the behavioral problems with Max and Puffy, but hope you can find a workable solution, and maybe have a lull in all the mayhem.


Yeah, was exercising Max out in the yard earlier and he was running around like a wildman and he seems to have snapped off a nail on his right hind paw. Ran in the house and was trailing blood wherever he went including the bed. Swell. Like you said, never a dull moment around here....


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## pandamonium

Ouch! on the vet visit and the nail!


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## Tosh's Legacy

Sounds as if Max is feeling his oats again! Glad he is doing better.

I miss the "wildman" days with mine. At 13.5 years old, there is no wildman left. But I laughed thinking about Max running like a crazy Tasmanian devil! It also brought tears to my eyes.

Now, on to solving the Max/Puffy situation -- you will get it solved. Everyone is different. 
Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box. Sometimes it is the best way!


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## Macca

"Trailing blood wherever he went"....not a good thing. I would hope for a little less excitement with Max.

How does Puffy do when he is out and about without Max?


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## Tosh's Legacy

Sorry everyone -- my first thought was a memory of Tosh running like the wind. It was the memory that made me laugh and cry. I totally forgot about the nail and blood at that point. That would definitely cause a trail of blood -- as does a nail that is cut too short.


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## Macca

How is your canine trio doing? I realized when I first read about Max snapping off a nail, I misinterpreted it to mean that he caught a metal, hardware nail on his foot. Am glad it wasn't that. Hope you are not having any major new problems.


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## murphy1

AD where are you? How are the boys doing?


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## Jackson the Golden

You explained your situation quite well. I have a large 4 year old male myself. I would highly recommend neutering them, NOT just for the fact that you have two males who are competing for a mate, but more importantly to have piece of mind, that unless you have plans to become a registered breeder, you will prevent them from testicular cancer and prostate problems in the future. Now, with that said, you have to ask yourself, how often do I walk them and how often am I draining their energy? It should be every day, twice a day if possible. How do you walk them on a leash? Are they next to you or behind you? What type of energy is in the home? Is it a calm submissive or an excited dominant? Do you set boundaries in your home? Meaning are they only allowed on the furniture (if allowed at all) when you invite them, zero barking when there is a knock on the door, stay calm when a guest enters the house. All of these are instances and situations you need to ask YOURSELF first before bringing in an expert. Because in more ways than not, it is the level of obedience that has been established within the household that determines whether or not your two males will get along respectively.


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## finn's adventure

Jackson the Golden said:


> Now, with that said, you have to ask yourself, how often do I walk them and how often am I draining their energy? It should be every day, twice a day if possible.


As has been stated before in this thread, all three dogs are exercised nearly to the point of exhaustion, sometimes together (before this recent turn of events) and often individually. It seems like the dynamic between these two particular dogs is much more complex than simple boredom. Hoping that AD & his family & his pack find a way to reduce the current stress in the household.


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## gdgli

alphadude

Hope all is going well.


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## rabernet

Jackson the Golden said:


> but more importantly to have piece of mind, that unless you have plans to become a registered breeder, you will prevent them from testicular cancer and prostate problems in the future.


I have to speak on this - we are keeping our boy and future boy intact because from all the research I've done, we believe that the hormones are important to help to protect against the OTHER cancers - like hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, lymphoma and mast cell tumors. Do they prevent those cancers? No - but neutering does increase the risk of those cancers. The odds of getting prostate/testicular cancer is less than 1%, and easily treatable. I'll take those odds.


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## murphy1

AD are you gone for good? I do see you responded but many here want to know how things are going. I understand there have been many things said, some you enjoyed and some that probably had you po'd. Please come back! Many here do care.


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## pandamonium

Alphadude!...Miss your posts!


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## gdgli

AD

I also would like to hear how things are going?


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## rabernet

@alphadude - was thinking about you and the boys today and wondering how things are going?


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## GoldenCamper

Look at the ancient header of GRF on this vid Alphadude from another old member other than me. Good for to you moving on.

Thanks for keeping you head stuck in the sand as it were when it comes to forums, good boy.


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## Tennyson

AD, you've been back reading this thread several times since your last post. A lot of good info for members going through something similar. Let the SI ego go by the wayside and maybe divulge any progressive avenues you decided to use. Might just shed some light for those looking for ideas and solutions to something similar.
Just my $02.


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## puddles everywhere

I don't think anyone is trying to pry into the private life of anyone... it's a great learning lesson for anyone having the same problem. As for me, and I'm sure many others, just a quick all is well or I shot them all  would be sufficient. Many of us are just concerned.
Whatever he chooses to do is his business and if this is how he needs to handle it I'm ok with this. I think it's safe to say from all of us, we hope all is well with you and your pups.


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## alphadude

Tennyson said:


> AD, you've been back reading this thread several times since your last post. A lot of good info for members going through something similar. Let the SI ego go by the wayside and maybe divulge any progressive avenues you decided to use. Might just shed some light for those looking for ideas and solutions to something similar.
> Just my $02.


Have to admit, the 'SI ego' comment got me to respond. I prefer to think of it as being strong willed.

First things first, all three dogs are still living here, all in excellent health as far as I know, are all safe and happy. In Puffy's case, considering he just turned 6 two weeks ago, I'd say he's never been better. He and Jack have been dieting and exercising regularly because both needed to slim down a bit. I'd even say that regular activity is agreeing with old Puffy and he's been downright spry by his standards anyway. He's working the sugar face these days.

Puffy and Max have been segregated completely since I was last here. It is an annoyance and it requires communication and a bit of planning but it is indeed possible and workable until I get this fully corrected, and make no mistake, I WILL do exactly that, *on my own*. It is infinitely preferable to re-homing one of them and I do not accept that as an option.

Truth be told, I've missed this place and the regulars on here. Been lurking a bit lately.

I really wanted to be able to come back and report, problem solved and sprain an elbow patting myself on the back all the while stroking my "si ego". Unfortunately, that is not the case, although I have indeed made significant progress toward desensitizing them to each other. Would I leave them alone in a room together unsupervised at this point?? Not a chance. I could however, (I have not done it just yet because I don't want to risk a setback) allow them to be in the same room together as long as I was there. I have definitely gotten through to both parties that when I say NO, hostilities cease between them and they go to neutral corners, no ands, ifs, or buts.

This has been accomplished *without*: physical violence of any kind, canine behaviorists, muzzles, shock collars, or either of them being neutered.

An example of the progress I have made is that when Max is outside and jumping on the sliding glass door, 2 months ago, they would both do their level best to attack each other through the glass. Just before, in that exact situation, Puffy was laying on the floor and a simple command of NO was enough to make him put his head back down and ignore Max. 

I have made similar progress with Max as I have been spending a lot of time with him. I have recently resumed his disc training and can now allow him off leash again without having to chase him. The last 2 weeks or so, we are back to going to the beach every night at least when it is not absolutely pouring rain - the weather has been atrocious. His recall is still far from perfect but it is improving. Frankly, I think he is maturing mentally a bit having now reached 18 months old. He is still a little twerp but his stamina is really improving and I am getting some muscle packed on his small frame. Haven't weighed him recently, but he is at least 70 lbs.

Additionally, I have observed no further aggression issues toward other dogs, and believe me I have been extremely vigilant and careful. I have allowed him to interact (on leash) even with several intact males - most recently a rottie with no posturing. I still don't trust him fully and I err on the side of caution. 

Regarding the disc training, Max has now started displaying several of the exact same behaviors his predecessor was famous for, including the 'hunched stalking approach' when he is awaiting the next launch. He also likes to leap up and try to snatch the disc from my hand if my attention wavers for a moment as well as run and leap up slamming my chest (or sometimes lower unfortunately) with his 2 front paws in an effort to get me to play. 

Earlier this evening, he made about a dozen very nice catches in the 45 yard range (he even had a spectator) including a couple with a splash down in the bay. If I didn't know better, I'd have sworn it was Ax, the technique and view from behind was so similar - it was somewhat surreal. Then almost without fail on the very next attempt, he'd completely lose sight of the disc and miss it completely. He seems to lack Ax's extremely keen eyesight and uncanny tracking ability of airborne objects. He also lacks Ax's blazing closing speed and determination to catch every single disc he chased, but he has markedly improved. In any event, I am pleased with his progress.


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## murphy1

Glad things are going well and I'm happy to see you back! Good for the Staten Island ego!!


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## sophieanne

Welcome home AlphaDude; you've been missed! I'm glad you're working through the issues. Would love to see new pics of your trio when you're ready to post.


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## LynnC

So glad all is well and welcome back! I've always enjoyed your videos of you disc training with the dogs


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## cwag

murphy1 said:


> Glad things are going well and I'm happy to see you back! Good for the Staten Island ego!!


Oh, so that's what SI ego means. I was imagining something much worse, ha ha. 
I'm glad you're back and that things have calmed down at home.


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## puddles everywhere

We've missed you around here! Hey, I think many of us have had situations that were tough and understand the stress and anxiety. I commend you on the dedication and commitment to making this workable for you. I think pats on the back are very much deserved!
It's good to hear from you, your point of view on the forum adds to the fun. Thanks for letting us know you are hanging in there


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## Gleepers

I have thought of you now and then. 
Glad to see you back and that things are at least progressing.


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## Wendy427

So happy to hear about all the great progress!


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## Max's Dad

Nice to see you back.


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## rabernet

Happy you are back, we've missed you!


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## rooroch

Glad to see you back and learn of the progress you are making. So happy that Max is doing well with the discs.


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## pandamonium

Your progress with the boys is wonderful! I respect you for deciding to keep everyone at home even though it means playing "musical goldens"! I knew you would sort it all out... It is a work in progress yes, but training is just that. I think you bring an important voice to this forum...thank you for the update! I think Axl shows up in Max occasionally to give you a tail wag, and to let you know he is helping with disc training. He misses you as much as you miss him...


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## gdgli

AD


Glad to hear that you are addressing this successfully.


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## alphadude

pandamonium said:


> Your progress with the boys is wonderful! I respect you for deciding to keep everyone at home even though it means playing "musical goldens"! I knew you would sort it all out... It is a work in progress yes, but training is just that. I think you bring an important voice to this forum...thank you for the update! I think Axl shows up in Max occasionally to give you a tail wag, and to let you know he is helping with disc training. He misses you as much as you miss him...


Musical goldens indeed. It is comical at times.

Axl was most definitely *NOT* present yesterday because Max absolutely *STUNK UP THE BEACH* - yes, he was THAT bad...caught 2 out of about 25!!! Even my daughter who is his 'mom' said he STUNK!


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## Tosh's Legacy

From one stubborn, hard-headed person to another -- this is GREAT news! You and your boys have been on our minds, and we are so happy to hear that things are progressing
positively for you. (Of course, we had no doubt that they would!)

Sounds as if you are progressing at about the same rate and with the same results that we had with ours. It's the determination, consistency and commitment on your part to make it work that is making it work. Oh, let's not forget about the biggest part of it, your love for your boys. Also, possibly the tension and stress at the initial red zone fights has gone, the atmosphere is more relaxed and they are sensing that, too.

We have been cheering for you all the way, and send you a great big WOOF for a job well done. Keep up the good work, Alphadude!

P.S. Smart of you to still be monitoring and separating them as you are. I know it's tedious at times and tempting not to, but smarter to go to the extra effort to do it.


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## alphadude

Tosh's Legacy said:


> Also, possibly the tension and stress at the initial red zone fights has gone, the atmosphere is more relaxed and they are sensing that, too.


I have thought the same thing. I really believe dogs are extremely attuned to the human emotions. Things are much more calm and relaxed these days as we have fallen into the routine of simply keeping them separated.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy

I’m glad that you are back, and that things are sorting themselves out at home with Max and Puffy. It sounds like you’ve been working very hard. Well done!!


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## Tennyson

alphadude said:


> Musical goldens indeed. It is comical at times.
> 
> Axl was most definitely *NOT* present yesterday because Max absolutely *STUNK UP THE BEACH* - yes, he was THAT bad...caught 2 out of about 25!!! Even my daughter who is his 'mom' said he STUNK!


Good to see you're making progress, AD.
Just somethings I sense in your posts that maybe you're not taking in to consideration. 75% of your posts always have some reference to Axl.
He was your once in a lifetime dog. No way in hell will you be able to replicate him. He's gone but you will always have his memories. Putting pressure on Max to get to Axl's level is never going to come to fruition. It's not in the cards. Even if you had a littermate of Axl it still wouldn't happen. Even if Ax was bred it wouldn't happen with one of his pups. You named Max using the "ax" hoping you could get that Ax/Disc magic back. There are how many famous athletes that their kids never came close to anywhere near their fathers and mothers. Mickey's kids didn't, Thurmond's kid didn't, Yogi's kids didn't, Michael Jordan's son didn't, Phil Simms kids didn't, Bill Russell's kid didn't, Willis Reed's kid didn't and on and on. Few exceptions like the Mannings, the Currys, the Ingrams, the Bryants and Luke and Bill Walton. But those are rare cases.
My point being that maybe Max isn't as diligent and hard driving as you want him to be able and love the disc like Ax. It's not a fault and it's not something to be upset about. Saying that Max "sucked" is something Max senses from you and your daughter. Goldens are a breed that picks up on disappointments. 
You had a once in a lifetime dog in Ax. Many other dog owners don't ever 
enjoy that experience. You had it. You were very lucky, AD.

Hoping for more positive updates on Max/Puffy


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## alphadude

Tennyson said:


> Good to see you're making progress, AD.
> Just somethings I sense in your posts that maybe you're not taking in to consideration. 75% of your posts always have some reference to Axl.
> He was your once in a lifetime dog. No way in hell will you be able to replicate him. He's gone but you will always have his memories. Putting pressure on Max to get to Axl's level is never going to come to fruition. It's not in the cards. Even if you had a littermate of Axl it still wouldn't happen. Even if Ax was bred it wouldn't happen with one of his pups. You named Max using the "ax" hoping you could get that Ax/Disc magic back. There are how many famous athletes that their kids never came close to anywhere near their fathers and mothers. Mickey's kids didn't, Thurmond's kid didn't, Yogi's kids didn't, Michael Jordan's son didn't, Phil Simms kids didn't, Bill Russell's kid didn't, Willis Reed's kid didn't and on and on. Few exceptions like the Mannings, the Currys, the Ingrams, the Bryants and Luke and Bill Walton. But those are rare cases.
> My point being that maybe Max isn't as diligent and hard driving as you want him to be able and love the disc like Ax. It's not a fault and it's not something to be upset about. Saying that Max "sucked" is something Max senses from you and your daughter. Goldens are a breed that picks up on disappointments.
> You had a once in a lifetime dog in Ax. Many other dog owners don't ever
> enjoy that experience. You had it. You were very lucky, AD.
> 
> Hoping for more positive updates on Max/Puffy


While it's true that a ton of my posts reference Axl in some way, in this particular instance I was responding to another poster who said:

_I think Axl shows up in Max occasionally to give you a tail wag, and to let you know he is helping with disc training._

That was in reference to the previous session where he was really pretty good and I was quite pleased. I was actually telling my daughter how well he did and she wanted to see him in action. Of course, he laid an egg. It wasn't from lack of trying, or motivation, he really seems to love doing the disc thing now, he's very into it. I can rip a disc as far as I want out into the bay, and he'll happily swim out and retrieve it. He'll chase them on land with great enthusiasm, just not as if his very life depended on him catching it. 

You know a lot of stuff comes different than intended in written form. I was chuckling as I typed that "he stunk", because he was just so inept it was actually comical. There was no malicious intent in those words, it was more self deprecating than anything else. 

Several of the, I'll call them tosses because they were not 'rips' implying ultra long distance in disc parlance, were so perfectly thrown, it was almost more difficult for him to miss than catch them. He got bonked on the head with several of them.

I certainly agree that overwhelming majority of the offspring of great athletes fall flat trying to live up to their father's greatness. Here's a four legged example, Secretariat who was just a genetic freak. None of his offspring was anything other than quite ordinary. He literally had a heart TWICE the size of a 'normal' horse, which enabled him to do the extraordinary things he did and make them look easy. 

Anyway, the reason I bring that up is that I always thought Ax had a little 'secretariat' in him, and by that I mean there was possibly a physiological reason he was able to effortlessly do the things he did, things a 75+ lb golden retriever should not have been able to do. 

That said, It would be utterly ridiculous for me to realistically expect Max or any other dog to replicate his exploits. You are indeed correct, I was extraordinarily lucky to have had almost 9 years with a dog like that.


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## gdgli

I wish you continued success. I am envious of your perseverance.


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## NewfieMom

I am trying to catch up on you and your dogs, alphadude. I only checked into this site to do that, actually. I adopted a new dog (a rescue) subject to two weeks of trial foster care four days ago and someone told me I am not the right owner for him. When he described the ideal owner, he described you. I do not want to give him up, although keeping him would mean tons of work, because he is a marvel. But if I could find an owner like you for him, his life would probably be expanded. My (male) friend was pretty brutal with me. I have been working like crazy with this great dog, but my friend thinks I do not have the land and am not young and active enough to give him what he needs. He keeps saying he needs someone to throw a frisbee for him!


He is a Lab mix of about one year rescued fro Oklahoma. He was found wandering in the woods. The rescue thought he was abused by his former owner, but my vet thinks he is too happy go lucky to have been abused. He has scars and one weak hind leg. My vet says that he needs exercise to fix it. The scars are here to stay. She has no idea what happened to him and says the rescue cannot know either. He may have been hit by a car; trapped under a car and burned by exhaust fumes; burned; caught in a trap; savaged by an animal. She said no one will ever know.


The foster mother said he was good with children and other dogs, but when he came here he was barking ferociously at my fence as if he would like to kill passersby and other dogs. When a chihuahua got under our fence he picked it up in his mouth. (No blood.) He escaped under the fence because he is thin enough to do so. So I have to keep him on a leash in my fenced in yard. He is too strong to washk on a standard leash, so I have to figure out a prong collar. He starts obedience classes tonight. 



But he is smart as whip and so alert it is frightening. He learned to go up the stairs the first day I got him and to come down the next morning! He never had an accident in the house.he has stopped barking at people and lawnmowers and baby carriages because I say' "It's OK and stroke him". The change in just a few days is astounding!


He is a bundle of raw energy. He is like my former Lab, Biscuit, but not as big, so he is more agile. He just leaps through the air. My vet says he is "a big dog" (although he is only 80 pounds) while Griffin was a "a tiny dog" in a huge body.


When I saw what a hard time you have had with Max and Puffy my fantasy that you could go through my agency and adopt him went out the window, but I wish I could clone you! he needs an owner like you to realize his potential!


I am so glad you have worked things out with your two great dogs. You know how much I have always loved Puffy! Some photos of my daughter and Hero (we renamed him that because of the ordeal he lived through) are below. I did not think you would mind my sticking them into your thread. You have always been very generous to me!



Hugs,
Deb


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## mylissyk

NewfieMom said:


> I am trying to catch up on you and your dogs, alphadude. I only checked into this site to do that, actually. I adopted a new dog (a rescue) subject to two weeks of trial foster care four days ago and someone told me I am not the right owner for him. When he described the ideal owner, he described you. I do not want to give him up, although keeping him would mean tons of work, because he is a marvel. But if I could find an owner like you for him, his life would probably be expanded. My (male) friend was pretty brutal with me. I have been working like crazy with this great dog, but my friend thinks I do not have the land and am not young and active enough to give him what he needs. He keeps saying he needs someone to throw a frisbee for him!
> 
> 
> He is a Lab mix of about one year rescued fro Oklahoma. He was found wandering in the woods. The rescue thought he was abused by his former owner, but my vet thinks he is too happy go lucky to have been abused. He has scars and one weak hind leg. My vet says that he needs exercise to fix it. The scars are here to stay. She has no idea what happened to him and says the rescue cannot know either. He may have been hit by a car; trapped under a car and burned by exhaust fumes; burned; caught in a trap; savaged by an animal. She said no one will ever know.
> 
> 
> The foster mother said he was good with children and other dogs, but when he came here he was barking ferociously at my fence as if he would like to kill passersby and other dogs. When a chihuahua got under our fence he picked it up in his mouth. (No blood.) He escaped under the fence because he is thin enough to do so. So I have to keep him on a leash in my fenced in yard. He is too strong to washk on a standard leash, so I have to figure out a prong collar. He starts obedience classes tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> But he is smart as whip and so alert it is frightening. He learned to go up the stairs the first day I got him and to come down the next morning! He never had an accident in the house.he has stopped barking at people and lawnmowers and baby carriages because I say' "It's OK and stroke him". The change in just a few days is astounding!
> 
> 
> He is a bundle of raw energy. He is like my former Lab, Biscuit, but not as big, so he is more agile. He just leaps through the air. My vet says he is "a big dog" (although he is only 80 pounds) while Griffin was a "a tiny dog" in a huge body.
> 
> 
> When I saw what a hard time you have had with Max and Puffy my fantasy that you could go through my agency and adopt him went out the window, but I wish I could clone you! he needs an owner like you to realize his potential!
> 
> 
> I am so glad you have worked things out with your two great dogs. You know how much I have always loved Puffy! Some photos of my daughter and Hero (we renamed him that because of the ordeal he lived through) are below. I did not think you would mind my sticking them into your thread. You have always been very generous to me!
> 
> 
> 
> Hugs,
> Deb


Hi Deb, I just wanted to suggest you try rubbing aloe on the scar every day to try and soften it and help the skin relax. He's a lucky boy to have you on his side.


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## alphadude

NewfieMom said:


> I am trying to catch up on you and your dogs, alphadude. I only checked into this site to do that, actually. I adopted a new dog (a rescue) subject to two weeks of trial foster care four days ago and someone told me I am not the right owner for him. When he described the ideal owner, he described you. I do not want to give him up, although keeping him would mean tons of work, because he is a marvel. But if I could find an owner like you for him, his life would probably be expanded. My (male) friend was pretty brutal with me. I have been working like crazy with this great dog, but my friend thinks I do not have the land and am not young and active enough to give him what he needs. He keeps saying he needs someone to throw a frisbee for him!
> 
> 
> He is a Lab mix of about one year rescued fro Oklahoma. He was found wandering in the woods. The rescue thought he was abused by his former owner, but my vet thinks he is too happy go lucky to have been abused. He has scars and one weak hind leg. My vet says that he needs exercise to fix it. The scars are here to stay. She has no idea what happened to him and says the rescue cannot know either. He may have been hit by a car; trapped under a car and burned by exhaust fumes; burned; caught in a trap; savaged by an animal. She said no one will ever know.
> 
> 
> The foster mother said he was good with children and other dogs, but when he came here he was barking ferociously at my fence as if he would like to kill passersby and other dogs. When a chihuahua got under our fence he picked it up in his mouth. (No blood.) He escaped under the fence because he is thin enough to do so. So I have to keep him on a leash in my fenced in yard. He is too strong to washk on a standard leash, so I have to figure out a prong collar. He starts obedience classes tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> But he is smart as whip and so alert it is frightening. He learned to go up the stairs the first day I got him and to come down the next morning! He never had an accident in the house.he has stopped barking at people and lawnmowers and baby carriages because I say' "It's OK and stroke him". The change in just a few days is astounding!
> 
> 
> He is a bundle of raw energy. He is like my former Lab, Biscuit, but not as big, so he is more agile. He just leaps through the air. My vet says he is "a big dog" (although he is only 80 pounds) while Griffin was a "a tiny dog" in a huge body.
> 
> 
> When I saw what a hard time you have had with Max and Puffy my fantasy that you could go through my agency and adopt him went out the window, but I wish I could clone you! he needs an owner like you to realize his potential!
> 
> 
> I am so glad you have worked things out with your two great dogs. You know how much I have always loved Puffy! Some photos of my daughter and Hero (we renamed him that because of the ordeal he lived through) are below. I did not think you would mind my sticking them into your thread. You have always been very generous to me!
> 
> 
> 
> Hugs,
> Deb


Hey Deb, great to hear from you after all this time! Sorry for the slow response, I login here very infrequently these days, seems like I went from hero to zero around here practically overnight. lol

I just got back from 2 weeks of vacation. Did a tour of mid Atlantic beaches - had a blast. 

I think it's great you got a new guy and even better that he's a rescue. He literally could be Jack's twin (see pic below) aside from the scars which I think add character. Love the name Hero as well. He sounds like just the type of guy I could turn into a canine athlete! Jack is a pretty decent disc dog when he feels like it, but he seems to lack the focus and drive that would make him so much better. It's a shame because he has the physical tools, he can jump 5' in the air. He's just a loveable goofball.

Ordinarily, I would love to take on another 4 legged project but I kind of have my hands full at the moment with 2 big dogs and 1 little twerp (Max). I am managing the situation between Max and Puffy by keeping them totally segregated from each other for now, which at times is a PAIN, but it has become second nature for the whole family. Beats the alternative of rehoming one of them. The thought actually crossed my mind to ask you if you wanted Puffy back when this all started, but I seriously doubt I could have made that fly at home anyway. 

I still believe that I can eventually 'fix this' by myself, and have made significant progress toward exactly that. I still haven't reached the point where they can be in the same room together without ME watching them like a hawk 100% of the time to nip any confrontation in the bud BEFORE it gets started.. No violence between them in many months.

Max @ 20 months old is quickly rounding into a fairly respectable disc dog and he is starting to display very similar mannerisms and behaviors to his predecessor. Very motivated, drivey, with loads of energy and attitude. He really is a fearless little guy ~ 68 lbs or so and he will dive into any body of water with reckless abandon. I should REALLY get him into dock diving. He was diving through giant waves and did a flying leap off of an 8' tall dune this past week. He seems to have little regard for his physical wellbeing.

Your daughter is really pretty - and I say that as a father of girls her age - *not* as a creepy old man! lol

Had to add a pic of the 3 stooges including your favorite Puffy. Taken last spring (2017) before the fireworks started. Puffy is north of 6 now and he starting to get his sugarface working.


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## puddles everywhere

Zero?! Dude you will always be Hero in my book, I know what it takes to live the revolving dog life! Kudos to anyone willing to do this.


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## rabernet

I have missed your contribution to the forum!


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## sophieanne

Alphadude..you are missed. I loved the pictures of your dogs..I love sugar faced goldens...they are so warm and loving. I'm glad you have a system that's working for you and your family. Pop in once in a while..just to say hi!


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## Ivyacres

AD, it's nice to hear from you again.


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## NewfieMom

alphadude said:


> The thought actually crossed my mind to ask you if you wanted Puffy back when this all started, but I seriously doubt I could have made that fly at home anyway.



And when I first read about your troubles, and not about your resolution, I almost wrote to you, "Let's trade!" I knew your family wouldn't give up Puffy, even if they could visit him, but I would have died to have taken him! I have always loved him to pieces!


Hero does look just like Jack. He has a weak right leg due to his injuries, though. The vet says exercise will strengthen it. It is astounding how much he can jump despite the weak leg. I can only imagine what he could do if he had never been injured. And he boy, can he focus!


Deb


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## alphadude

NewfieMom said:


> And when I first read about your troubles, and not about your resolution, I almost wrote to you, "Let's trade!" I knew your family wouldn't give up Puffy, even if they could visit him, but I would have died to have taken him! I have always loved him to pieces!
> 
> 
> Hero does look just like Jack. He has a weak right leg due to his injuries, though. The vet says exercise will strengthen it. It is astounding how much he can jump despite the weak leg. I can only imagine what he could do if he had never been injured. And he boy, can he focus!
> 
> 
> Deb


Let's work out a trade...Puffy and Jack (package deal) for Hero.


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## NewfieMom

I have a counter-offer. You get the twins so they can both play frisbee. I can't give Jack enough exercise. I get the couch potato so I can cuddle him to death. I can walk a mile twice a day so he moves around a little. And I think Puffy has always been part mine. ;-)

But I will travel to visit you with Puffy whenever you want. I am a great driver and am used to driving between Connecticut and Virginia.

Deb
NewfieMom


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## alphadude

NewfieMom said:


> I have a counter-offer. You get the twins so they can both play frisbee. I can't give Jack enough exercise. I get the couch potato so I can cuddle him to death. I can walk a mile twice a day so he moves around a little. And I think Puffy has always been part mine. ;-)
> 
> But I will travel to visit you with Puffy whenever you want. I am a great driver and am used to driving between Connecticut and Virginia.
> 
> Deb
> NewfieMom


Truth be told, Jack is a couch potato wanna be. Despite my best efforts, he has not developed the stamina that I had hoped for. He is actually a really good physical specimen, he can run fast *when he wants to *and he can jump REALLY high. I have seen him easily jump onto 5' tall objects. That said, he tires and loses interest very quickly. When I take Jack and Puffy (typically together) there have been times when even Puffy seemed more energetic than he did. When I take him with Max, he gets outperformed nearly 100% of the time. Although he has the physical ability to run faster than Max, he almost always comes in second when chasing a disc or a ball.


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