# Teeter Issues...



## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Are you doing an AKC trial? If so and she gets all 4 paws on and bails you will be asked to move on and yes an NQ but if it is a case of her coming up to it and stopping, it is only a refusal and I would try again, you can still Q..If it is NADAC or ASCA refusals don't count and you can train in the ring.
I would get some really good smelly treats that she goes crazy for and have them there thursday night and the minute she drops the board to the bottom reward her big time, do this at least 5 times in succession and go do something else then come back to the teeter..short fix but it might work.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Is she refusing to do the teeter at all or is she bailing off of it? Can you ask to use the teeter by yourself for awhile? If you can, I would set it down to its lowest level, so it is almost flat on the floor and have her walk across it and praise like crazy. Once she is comfortable at the lowest level, start raising it up. I had to do this with Selli, but I had weeks to do it. She LOVES the teeter now.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

A Golden with a teeter issue??? Are you sure????

Actually I think Goldens may be the #1 breed to develop teeter issues and they can be very hard to work thru. The other thing is they quite often transfer to the dog walk as the dog sees the incline of the dog walk and tells itself iit is the teeter. So what you are experiencing is not uncommon if that is of any consulation to you. 
Now what to do to fix it. You have several good suggestions so far. Another thing I like to do with my girls is in the verty beginning the way I introduce the teeter is from the opposite end. I start with the end elevated in the air. I put a crate or chair under the end that lies on the ground so that the elevated end is not too high. i then get the dog to touch the elevated end with her front paws and then she makes that end of the teeter touch the ground. I make a HUGE deal the instant it hits the ground and treat the dog. My cue word is "touch" which is also my cue for all the contact zones in agility. My girls get SO excited that in no time they are "slamming" the teeter to the ground. This way it transfers easily when she is approaching the end from the other end of the teeter. We play this game A LOT, so much so that the dog will on her own push/slam down the elevated teeter with out being cued. I will revisit this "game" every now and then after basic training to keep that enthusiasm for the teeter. Good luck and try not to stress too much over it, Maddie can sense that stress and it will just make it more difficult.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Hi guys! Thanks for all the WONDERFUL suggestions! Maddie is completely refusing it! She will get about 2-3 feet away from it and just stop dead cold and be a complete butt head about it! 
I did get some new treats and used them this morning..that still didn't work. I had to like force her to do it. What I notices is that once she gets to the middle of it..and it starts to move...she has a few issues as pushing it down. Could that just be her muscles or something else? She also gets sooo stressed that she literally wants to race off of it! It really frustrates me that this is all of the sudden! 
Yeah, this is an AKC trial...so I have a feeling we'll NQ in Standard..unless I can work on it tomorrow somehow and then again on Thursday. We'll see I guess. I'll just work on handling skills at home and go from there I guess. 
I'm glad that she got over the dog walk problems..but now it's just the teeter! Is there a way I can set up something at home that can act like a teeter?? or is that impossible to do???


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

my agility instructor told me that it's amazing how many goldens have an issue with the teeter! 
Not that it's any help, just thought that misery loves company...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I would think it is the sensation of the teeter moving under her that is the issue. I doubt it is anything else. Again it is NOT uncommon for a Golden. I have known numerous Goldens over the years that once they get to the middle they almost lie down on it to get it to drop VERRRRYYYY SLLLOOOWWWLLYY. 
You can rig something up at home but it will require assistance from your dad and probably cost around $75. I did this for my own use and the "teeter" lasted for years. Home Depot sells these things that are similar to a "saw horse" except the top pice is a roller. I bought a wood plank approx. 12 inches x 2 inches x 12 feet and found the center of the plank. I then attached the plank slightly off center to the roller saw horse using metal stapping and wood screws. I painted the plank with paint I mixed some sand in with for traction, and even used some yellow paint on the end to indicate the contct zone.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Here is what the roller stand looks like and a link to it at home depot.









http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100026516


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

MaddieMagoo said:


> Hi guys! Thanks for all the WONDERFUL suggestions! Maddie is completely refusing it! She will get about 2-3 feet away from it and just stop dead cold and be a complete butt head about it!
> I did get some new treats and used them this morning..that still didn't work. I had to like force her to do it. What I notices is that once she gets to the middle of it..and it starts to move...she has a few issues as pushing it down. Could that just be her muscles or something else? She also gets sooo stressed that she literally wants to race off of it! It really frustrates me that this is all of the sudden!
> Yeah, this is an AKC trial...so I have a feeling we'll NQ in Standard..unless I can work on it tomorrow somehow and then again on Thursday. We'll see I guess. I'll just work on handling skills at home and go from there I guess.
> I'm glad that she got over the dog walk problems..but now it's just the teeter! Is there a way I can set up something at home that can act like a teeter?? or is that impossible to do???


A couple of things - forcing her over the equipment won't work - and it may very well make things worse. My advice would be to put the teeter WAY down and work there - a week is not a lot of time to get over a teeter phobia. If she doesn't complete it in your STD class she won't qualify - if she's still having the issue I'd consider not asking her to do it in trial - better to not attempt than to try and confirm her fear or let her figure out that she doesn't have to do the teeter in trial because you can't fix the problem, cheerlead or put her back on....

That being said, you could put her back on an obstacle she bails - despite the four paw rule - but expect to be whistled off - IMO that's preferable to leaving the white elephant out there (a fall off the DW/Teeter, etc) and continue on the course...

Erica


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks Hank! Although I don't think we'll be going to Home Depot anytime before the trial...sadly. 
I think you're right that it is the fact that she is scared of it moving under her.Which is sooo weird...but I guess that it's just a Golden thing...lol. Dang Goldens! haha.

Hopefully we can get her to just go up on it on her own...and still qualify....ugh...why the weekend before a trial??? jeeze...lol


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> A couple of things - forcing her over the equipment won't work - and it may very well make things worse. My advice would be to put the teeter WAY down and work there - a week is not a lot of time to get over a teeter phobia. If she doesn't complete it in your STD class she won't qualify - if she's still having the issue I'd consider not asking her to do it in trial - better to not attempt than to try and confirm her fear or let her figure out that she doesn't have to do the teeter in trial because you can't fix the problem, cheerlead
> Erica


 
I think this is EXCELLENT advice. They learn VERY quick that you can't correct them in the ring and that can be a major problem later. Give it a shot, if she does not do it go on to the next obstacle and work on the pproblem in training. MANY excellent trainers take this approach in the ring.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Yeah...that's what I was thinking. We'll see how the week goes but if she decides not to do it at the trial, I'm just going to keep moving on. Then we can correct that problem in the training stages. 

Do you think this has anything to do with her yeast infection in her ears???


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

It could, as in if it is bad enough it could affect her balance in some way.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Please don't "force" her to do it or even lure her up with nice treats. She's telling you she's uncomfortable with the full-height teeter, for whatever reason, so you need to get ahold of a lowered one to work with. You might get her to follow the cheese up, I'd follow food into a lot of scary places too, but the only way to solve the problem is to get her confident with the movement of a lowered teeter and then gradually increase its height.

Here's what I did with Dusty, who had a terrible teeter problem (it's definitely a Golden thing). Shoving him up, holding the end and coaxing him up, squirting little piles of whipped cream all the way up the full height teeter, all did not work (please do not try it). This did. I do have a "real" adjustable base teeter, but you can rig something up that moves like a teeter. Just make sure it's stable so you don't cause an even bigger problem.






I would just skip it in the trial, if she's not doing it in class she's definitely not going to in the ring, and if she scares herself and bails off or something then the fear might stick inside the ring even after you fix it outside the ring. You really don't want the first time she does a teeter in a trial to be a scary, hesitant experience. Push her right past it so she doesn't even see it. Everyone knows those darn Goldens and their teeters and no one will mind you skipping it.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am using the new Wendy Pape DVD on training the teeter and am making good progess with my younger dogs and my older dog, Casey, is much more confident and NOT waiting at the tip point in the back yard now. She divides the training into 6 different steps for completeness and understanding.

I would suggest you plan on not attempting the teeter at the upcoming shows - build her ability and confidence up. Good luck


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Hi Katie...yeah I think you're right. My instructor has just been telling us to make sure she gets up there and that she has no choice but to do it. Today we did work with a teeter that you can adjust..but we didn't know how to....I wish we would've known. I'm going to email my instructor and see what she thinks. I know the teeter that we'd be using this week, isn't adjustable. We'll see what happens and maybe it is just her ears...who knows. I hope she rocks the Jumpers course! =] As long as I can run, talk, and give out directions at the same time...lol.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

No no no, agility doesn't work that way. Dogs should absolutely "have a choice" and if they're afraid of an obstacle, you need to respect that. She's not blowing you off or being silly or anything like that, she's telling you that she is not comfortable with the teeter at that height and there is no way she will be unless you first lower it to a point where she is comfortable. Anyone who says otherwise probably doesn't have much experience with either Goldens or dogs with obstacle stress issues.

Skipping the teeter in two runs isn't going to affect anything at all, you still have plenty of time to get your titles and a month later no one is going to remember it but you. Trying to "force" her to do the teeter, on the other hand, could leave you with some very big problems later on, and will also piss off the judge and whoever else is watching. Watching Novice makes me want to slap either the handlers or their instructors a lot of the time because so many of them are trying to push dogs with fear/stress issues and even if they still end up qualifying that run, it's just going to bite them in the butt later on.

If you don't have access to an adjustable teeter, you can do a little bit to get her used to the motion by having someone else push down on the up end so that the down end is a few inches off the ground, and then do the same thing as in the Dusty video I posted earlier. You can't completely fix the problem without an adjustable teeter or a stable homemade version that you can gradually make taller, but it's a start.

I bet that's a great DVD - the way I train/retrain the teeter is based on one of Wendy Pape's articles for Clean Run several years ago. This was when Dusty was still getting shoved up the teeter and/or lured up with piles of whipped cream, and it was a huge breakthrough for me to realize that you can train to ensure a confident teeter rather than just shove his butt up there and hope it doesn't scare him too much.


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

I have to agree with Katie on this, I have seen to many dogs forced to do this and the problems that arise are many. I have always started mine with a bujo (?) board on the ground just for them to get used to movement and then advance to the lowered teeter starting at the finished result and working my way to the beginning. Then adding height..My kids are nuts for the teeter..


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I've always put cheese/hot dogs up the teeter and never had a problem with that method (then again, I have one very brave, brave Golden and a couple of silly Labs that wouldn't notice if the world fell out from under them  ). 

However, I'm a big proponent of not doing the same thing over and over again if it doesn't work...If you did the cheese thing and she's saying no...well..be creative and come up with another method  

Also, I think things fall apart the week of a trial b/c people stress a lot. Keep breathing!


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> Skipping the teeter in two runs isn't going to affect anything at all, you still have plenty of time to get your titles and a month later no one is going to remember it but you.


Actually...I can't tell you how many times I've come out of the ring - even at a small one ring trial - and asked someone sitting ringside if they saw "something" - did you see what I did at the tunnel? And they laugh sheepishly - Sorry I wasn't watching....And the same thing happens to me when I'm watching the ring - I miss stuff too!! No one will remember 15 minutes later that you skipped the teeter - most experienced competitors will know the feeling as they've been in your shoes before - and we all know about the fist agility dog syndrome  What people will remember is the dog that runs to the tipping point and stays there until (the whole time the handler is "air cookie-ing" and BEGGING the dog to tip the plank) the judge whistles them off what feels like five minutes later...ditto for the dog that WON'T down on the table and causes a similar round of handler begging.

I can also second Katie's bang game with the teeter - that's how I teach my dogs teeters - just make it bang - then we shape the rest. There's one part there Katie that scares the heck out of me where he's coming at the high end straight on for four paws on the teeter - how he didn't break a leg there is BEYOND me! Goofy boy!

Erica


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

MurphyTeller said:


> Actually...I can't tell you how many times I've come out of the ring - even at a small one ring trial - and asked someone sitting ringside if they saw "something" - did you see what I did at the tunnel? And they laugh sheepishly - Sorry I wasn't watching....And the same thing happens to me when I'm watching the ring - I miss stuff too!! No one will remember 15 minutes later that you skipped the teeter - most experienced competitors will know the feeling as they've been in your shoes before - and we all know about the fist agility dog syndrome  What people will remember is the dog that runs to the tipping point and stays there until (the whole time the handler is "air cookie-ing" and BEGGING the dog to tip the plank) the judge whistles them off what feels like five minutes later...ditto for the dog that WON'T down on the table and causes a similar round of handler begging.
> Erica


Erica is absolutely right. I don't do agility but it's the same whether it be in obedience, field, or the breed ring. I don't remember dogs messing up but I do remember handlers being mean, having poor sportsmanship or treating their dogs poorly. Everybody understands that dogs (and handlers) have off days and make mistakes, that training dogs is a work in progress, but there is no room for forcing a scared dog or being a poor sport. Best of luck and have fun!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I think you have gotten plenty of good advice already, so I will not add to that. But if it makes you feel any better about a week before my first agility trial (ever) with Sammy he also decided to stop doing the teeter. He would put two paw on and not go any further. At our first trial we gave it a few shots (since he only put two paws on we were able to try again) but he would not do it. So we walked around it and finished the course with an NQ. We still had a great time and he eventually got over his teeter issue with time and training...


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Erica is absolutely right. I don't do agility but it's the same whether it be in obedience, field, or the breed ring. I don't remember dogs messing up but I do remember handlers being mean, having poor sportsmanship or treating their dogs poorly. Everybody understands that dogs (and handlers) have off days and make mistakes, that training dogs is a work in progress, but there is no room for forcing a scared dog or being a poor sport. Best of luck and have fun!


And to stress what everyone else has already said - it's NOVICE - the expectations for green dogs and green handlers are very low - because you NEVER know what you're going to get when you step in the ring with a green dog. Remember that even the Pros have green dogs - they all debut somewhere. As a for instance - I'd say 90% of novice dogs visit either the ring crew or the judge in their novice career - it's part of the game learning to work around people in the ring - they get over it...I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't expect to go into your first trial and nail everything - sure, sometimes it happens but there are a lot of dog/handler teams who go into the ring with the goal of "lets do #1, #2 then #13 and #17 and out we go" - making things successful. If you're putting pressure on yourself to have a clean run and a double Q (or even worse your trainer is putting that pressure on you to Q) then you've got to very deliberately leave that pressure or baggage at the startline. Otherwise it's not fair to you or to Maddy. With a novice dog in any venue it's truly more important for the dogs to have positive ring experiences than it is for them to leave with a Q...The Q's come with time and positive experience.

And remember that the VAST majority of even the Excellent level agility competitors don't leave the ring downtrodden if they (or their dog) make a mistake - it's not like the obedience ring where only perfection is acceptable...it's a team - and mistakes happen - hey, if we qualified ALL the time it just wouldn't be as fun would it?

Erica


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

sammydog said:


> I think you have gotten plenty of good advice already, so I will not add to that. But if it makes you feel any better about a week before my first agility trial (ever) with Sammy he also decided to stop doing the teeter. He would put two paw on and not go any further. At our first trial we gave it a few shots (since he only put two paws on we were able to try again) but he would not do it. So we walked around it and finished the course with an NQ. We still had a great time and he eventually got over his teeter issue with time and training...


The week before the 2008 GR national in Rhode Island (which was Teller's "debut" in agility) he flipped a teeter - his nautral teeter performance was a sliding teeter, he hit it at a gallop in such a way that it literally flipped over - and it scared him. He'd never had a teeter issue or concern before but he ABSOLUTELY had a reason to now. We went back to the bang game and he went through a period where he trotted onto it and paused at the pivot - lots of reinforcement for tipping it and zero attention to him pausing at pivot (I'd turn my back and not say anything until he tipped it - then we partied). Cheerleading made things worse. So when he flipped another teeter at a trial I was worried we'd see the same problem again - it didn't - but he's also figured out a better teeter entry strategy - and I won't ever reward a sliding teeter with him - knowing that he can hit it with enough energy to flip a weighted teeter is enough for me to eat the 1 second delay and reinforce a safer teeter performance.

Erica


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Hank,

What a neat idea with the roller saw horse. What is the hight of a competition teeter base?

For a cheap solution to low teeters, you can buy the wood plank (a 2X12 by 8') and use PVC pipe lengths for the base. If you get about a 4' length of PVC pipe in a couple of different diameters, the plank should be stable enough to tip, but not roll off. 

As everyone else has said,please do not force your dog over the teeter. Go back and make the teeter a fun obstacle rather than something to be feared. The only problem with this approach is that you may bet a teeter sucker like Selli, who went of course one trial to do the teeter.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> Hank,
> 
> What a neat idea with the roller saw horse. What is the hight of a competition teeter base?


 
24 inches plus or minus 2 inches.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hank when do we get to see new pictures of Oriana? Inquiring minds wanna know


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

As requested

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=61143


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

MurphyTeller said:


> There's one part there Katie that scares the heck out of me where he's coming at the high end straight on for four paws on the teeter - how he didn't break a leg there is BEYOND me! Goofy boy!


Haha, yeah ... it's actually included in most of the written-out progressions I've seen to have them put all four paws up, and it's fine when it's just a few inches high, but at that height it's definitely not something I wanted him to do again. If I'd had the editing capabilities at the time I would have cut that out ... oh well. I'm glad he had the confidence to even try that though.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I have been following this thread with great interest. As a newby to agility (but with obedience and rally experience), the teeter was the first obstacle I have had any problem with Casey doing. It has basically been luring him with a treat down the entire length and hoping that he didn't bail along the way. I love the Bang game! it really makes sense, and I will try it. I'm going to ask my instructor if she has done it.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> I have been following this thread with great interest. As a newby to agility (but with obedience and rally experience), the teeter was the first obstacle I have had any problem with Casey doing. It has basically been luring him with a treat down the entire length and hoping that he didn't bail along the way. I love the Bang game! it really makes sense, and I will try it. I'm going to ask my instructor if she has done it.


Liz,
Are you a clicker trainer? The first part of the bang game - particularly with a noise sensitive dog - is to click and treat while another dog plays the bang game or does some teeter reps. When you play the bang game your timing with the clicker (or whatever marker you use) needs to be right on in the initial stages. For example - you start by Casey looking at the end that's going to bang and then moving towards it, and then a foot going up, and then a foot on it, movement of the board, then finally the bang - in other words if you watched Dusty's video you saw pretty close to the finished product of the game.

As a general rule I don't like luring my dogs for any behavior - particularly over agility equipment. The reason being is that I think that the lure cheats the dog out of thinking. Why should a dog think about solving the puzzle if his handler is going to get impatient and solve the puzzle for him. It starts the game of agility without obstacle independence and you'll have to solve that later. I want my dogs to offer behaviors and make mistakes so that I can mark the behaviors and up the ante towards the final product. So I shape almost everything my dogs learn (things I don't shape I mark). It builds a relationship, it creates excitement in the game and it allows the overall process to move faster with a clicker savvy dog. 

So luring a dog over the teeter (and so many instructors teach the teeter this way) the dog isn't learning about things like pivot points, correct obstacle entry and exit or how to discriminate between a dogwalk and a teeter - we're giving them all of the answers right of the bat. Then when we start to fade the lure we see dogs that completely lose their confidence over that obstacle and in my experience that's when you start to see problems on the dogwalk as well...

Erica


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Thanks for all the excellent help guys...but the thing is: I DON'T clicker train!!! I don't see the point of it...ack! I do have a clicker, but I haven't used it in 3 years. I did use it because I was using Terri Arnold's attention program...but I think you don't have to use a clicker...you can't use it in the ring..or treats. But I don't use treats as often. I use play..and hands on games. Sorry..but clicker training isn't my cup of tea!

My trainer thinks that Maddie is just blowing it off...she does that a lot with other things....so we'll see. We didn't get to go train tonight...so hopefully we can get out there tomorrow night....

We'll see what happnes during the week...maybe it's just her ears...I'm planning on giving her a bath and getting her all gussied up! haha.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

MaddieMagoo said:


> Thanks for all the excellent help guys...but the thing is: I DON'T clicker train!!! I don't see the point of it...ack! I do have a clicker, but I haven't used it in 3 years. I did use it because I was using Terri Arnold's attention program...but I think you don't have to use a clicker...you can't use it in the ring..or treats. But I don't use treats as often. I use play..and hands on games. Sorry..but clicker training isn't my cup of tea!


Well, without getting too much into a debate on clicker training - two things - you fade the clicker after you have the behavior - and you start to vary the reinforcement. The click essentially means "in this instance that behavior was correct" - it ends the behavior and it marks the moment that was right. Pretend that you are playing hot and cold (remember that game) - lets say you want to get the other person to walk over to a light switch and turn on the light. You can't use any words to direct them, but you can "pay" them when they make steps towards the ultimate behavior. Hard huh? By the time you get to them to deliver the reinforcement they may very well have done three incorrect things in addition to the one correct thing.

Now, imagine that you are using the clicker to mark the behavior (and it doesn't have to be a clicker - it could be a word that means the same thing to the dog as a clicker - and like the clicker you have to "Charge" that word and you always have to reinforce after you use that work). Anyhow, the INSTANT that your "victim" takes a step towards the light switch you can click and mark the behavior - in this case moving in the right direction. You can then move to the person and deliver the reinforcement - they still might have done any number of things that were incorrect - but you marked the progress. 

That's a very basic example of shaping - but it's part of the bang game. If you weren't using a clicker or marking the progress towards making the "bang" how are you communicating that Maddie is making progress towards the ultimate goal? How are you going to communicate to her (in a non-physical manner) that you want her to put her feet on that board and push it down? In this case, I'm not questioning your methods - I'm asking a question - how is she supposed to know what the new game is if you aren't giving her feedback along the way? Would you just put her at the end and let gravity push her down to the bang? Would you lure her over it?

I don't believe that dogs in general blow things off - it's not really part of their behavior repertoire and it upsets me when I hear "trainers" telling their students that their dogs are being malicious or deviant and blowing them off or getting back at them because they're bratty dogs. Dogs don't wake up in the morning and decide that they really want to get a rise out of their handler and aren't going to do the teeter at the trial today. Sometimes it might seem like that's what's happening when in reality it's stress, lack of understanding of what is being asked or in the case of agility/obedience it's a lack of a reinforcement history - rushing through the progression of learning a concept. Sometimes dogs lead us to believe that they have a better understanding of a concept than they actually do...does that make sense? Sure they've made that particular weave entry twenty-three times at home - but that doesn't mean they understand that entry in trial or at the park or even at home when you tweak the approach (add in speed, extension, distraction - whatever).

Again, my two cents...
Erica


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I don't mean to stir up a great debate in clicker training--either. I respect everybody's ways to train and there is no one way to train a dog. If you feel one way is better for your dog..than so be it. 

I'm not quite understanding you're question...but I think I do. I am not being "forceful" with my dog...but in some cases, you do need to be forceful. Do you think that if you kissed your dogs butt everyday and let them get away with everything on the planet...that they'd choose to listen to you, once you give them a command? I think not. I'm not yanking Maddie around..but telling her that she has to do this. I'm not yelling at her, but I am praising her on and off the teeter...I'm having her sit and down on it and showing her it's not all that really a bad thing. I'm playing with her after it and before it...going off and doing something else then coming back to it and doing the same thing. I honestly don't think that that is really being "negative" or "forceful" in any way.

About the blowing off thing....yeah my dog DOES do that! We can be doing a Rally course and off she goes...not wanting to do it. We have to get her attitude changed about this and this is her job....and I certainly can't do it for her. In agility terms...she will run away from her problems..she doesn't blow me off there, I get her confused and she runs away from me. I just have to be fun, animated...and everything will fall into place. 

I'm probably going out on a limb here...


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

MaddieMagoo said:


> I'm not quite understanding you're question...but I think I do. I am not being "forceful" with my dog...but in some cases, you do need to be forceful. Do you think that if you kissed your dogs butt everyday and let them get away with everything on the planet...that they'd choose to listen to you, once you give them a command? I think not.


I think you took advice and a suggestion to your problem and spun it very negatively. Kissing my dog's butts? Really? I don't think you needed to go there - just on a personal level that was unnecessary. Honestly, you asked for help and you were given advice - like all things in life you can take the pieces that pertain to your situation and dismiss the rest. 

I never said you were physically abusing her. I asked you how you would communicate the steps towards the bang game without treats (you said you don't use a lot of food) or marking the steps towards the ultimate goal.

I have never said that life with dogs is all sunshine and daisies. I expect a certain level of behavior from my dogs and train to that effect. Their lives are not a democracy - its a dictatorship - we're clear on that. However - obedience and agility (and tracking, conformation and fieldwork) are not something they wake up and choose to do (at least not at first). It's a game I want them to play with me and while compulsion has a place in household manners I don't believe in compulsion in agility - agility just isn't meant to be about force and overpowering a dog to get them over obstacles. 



MaddieMagoo said:


> I'm not yanking Maddie around..but telling her that she has to do this. I'm not yelling at her, but I am praising her on and off the teeter...I'm having her sit and down on it and showing her it's not all that really a bad thing. I'm playing with her after it and before it...going off and doing something else then coming back to it and doing the same thing. I honestly don't think that that is really being "negative" or "forceful" in any way.


Again, I never said that you were being forceful - you made that implication. The thing about negative reinforcement is that it depends on the dog whether X correction is an aversive. Adding an aversive to a stress reaction will only increase the stress reaction - now there's two things to be worried about - the obstacle or situation and then the negative reinforcement (or punishment). Again, it's your dog - and you know her better than any of us do - but you should consider the concept.



MaddieMagoo said:


> About the blowing off thing....yeah my dog DOES do that! We can be doing a Rally course and off she goes...not wanting to do it. We have to get her attitude changed about this and this is her job....and I certainly can't do it for her. In agility terms...she will run away from her problems..she doesn't blow me off there, I get her confused and she runs away from me. I just have to be fun, animated...and everything will fall into place.


I still don't buy the blowing off as a canine behavior. How do you know that her leaving you isn't stress, physical discomfort or a lack of understanding? Dogs just aren't vindictive. It could very well be that her "quitting" is a stress reaction to the situation - it may not be the case, but you should consider the possibility.

Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*About the blowing off thing....yeah my dog DOES do that! We can be doing a Rally course and off she goes...not wanting to do it. We have to get her attitude changed about this and this is her job....and I certainly can't do it for her.*

You can change her attitude by changing how you approach things. If, for example, you tend to not use treats that often because YOU prefer to use petting and other hands-on rewards, perhaps your dog is telling you that reward, to her, ain't all it's cracked up to be.

"Reward" is the opinion of the dog, not the handler. It often sounds like you've decided "this is what's going to be reinforcing to my dog" and perhaps she feels differently. When we as handlers aren't willing to listen to what our dog is telling us, it's much harder to facilitate a change in the dog's behavior.

Perhaps your dog is "blowing you off" because you have't made it worth HER while to play our silly little games of obedience and agility. Dogs do what is rewarding to THEM. Period. If running around the ring is more rewarding to her than staying with you and working, YOU have the power to change that. But perhaps you'll need to change YOUR behavior.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

If she's not comfortable with the teeter at full height, it's just stubborn to keep trying to coax her into doing it. She won't. She doesn't care whether clicker training is your "cup of tea," she just cares that for whatever reason that teeter is now big and scary. I don't care if you actually use a clicker, you can see in the video I posted that I wasn't using a clicker or even a precise verbal marker. I was building off of the foundation that he already knows how to offer interacting with an object, which does come from a clicker, but a verbal marker works just as well. You just need some way to mark the precise moment that she looks at the object, steps toward the object, etc. And I just want you to lower the teeter and get her gradually comfortable with the movement using a motivator that is strong enough to overcome her fear.

Praise is not a strong enough motivator to compete with a big scary loud moving thing. Would you rather do your homework for a little sticker or for an A? You might do something really easy for the sticker if it was a cute sticker, but stickers aren't going to get any calculus done. Neither is telling you that doing homework is "your duty as a student" but the teacher isn't going to collect or grade it. Right. That might work with one or two of the super-driven Border Collie types, but the rest of us have a lot of better things to do. And we're supposed to be super-advanced humans who can rationalize and do things out of a sense of duty even if they aren't as immediately rewarding. Dogs absolutely do not think in terms of duty, at all. They'll do whatever has the best result. So if you want them to do something, you can either make doing it really fun by associating it with something they already think is really fun, or you can make not doing it really scary. You have to do one or the other, and your dog obviously does not think play and praise are fun enough or you wouldn't be having these problems. And yes, I know it's annoying when people use comparisons like homework, you feel like they're talking down to you, whatever. You just accused me of "kissing my dog's butt every day." Express your opinions in a mature manner and you'll be treated accordingly.

This is another card I don't like to pull, but you opened yourself up for it with that comment ... do you seriously think I got a MACH by "kissing my dog's butt every day" and not caring whether or not he did what I told him to? Nope. I made sure that he really wanted to do what I told him to do. I run with a big piece of food in my hand all the time in the yard and at class, and if I get the chance to do fun matches I take the big piece of food in there too and reward on the table, at contacts, and anytime the dog does something particularly good. Food makes dogs happy. If you want your dog to be happy about doing agility, you do that by associating it with food. Then when you go into the ring, even though there's no food there, your dog still feels happy because she associates agility with really happy things.

It's really sad that you interpret your dog's stress and lack of sufficiently motivational training as "blowing you off" in any sport, because if you trained her to love rally she wouldn't leave the ring. It's not your dog's job to go walk around some signs and cones on the floor. If you want your dog to do that, it's YOUR job to make it fun for her.

I think you really need to step back and realize what this stuff is all about. You want your dog to run up a little tippy board, weave around some plastic sticks, walk in patterns around signs and cones. It's all really stupid when you think about it. Of course it can be fun, it can help develop a bond with your dog, etc. But right now you're not making it fun and your training is probably compromising your bond with your dog. Don't you see how silly it all is? By treating it like a "job" and not making your dog the priority, you're taking away the only way to actually get something meaningful out of those stupid signs and tipping boards. You put cute little quotes in your signature about loving the game, but you don't seem to care at all about making your dog love the game. And since your dog isn't having fun, all there is to "love" are the stupid meaningless signs and cones. I think it's pretty ridiculous to "love" walking around in a pattern with a dog who doesn't want to do it because you haven't put in the effort to make it fun for her.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

Well, I think dogs do "blow off" handlers some times. But I think we all may be using different definitions of "blow off". 

I think Katie is right in that "blow off" can be caused by stress. Gabby does that a lot- she stresses down a lot and all of a sudden I have a laggy dog at obedience trials or dog that barely trots around a course on agility- when she was showing agility. I have a buddy whose dog stresses up- results in the zoomies, butt tucks, ring leaving. All stress related. 

I think inattention and sensory overload can also result in "blowing off". I train by myself A LOT - and before and after work. Guess what? There aren't as many people around my training building at five am or nine pm as there are during a show weekend. Same place, same behavior- just way more hustle and bustle. Can result in a lot less attention, missed signals, missed drops, etc. Did she "blow me off"? Sure, I guess. Whose fault was that? Different story...

Pain and heat exhaustion are other big causes of "blowing off". My gf's PWD won't work if it's over 80. Is he blowing her off and not working? Yeah, sure, I guess. He's got a thick black coat and he just melts in the heat though. Gabby has severe HD and before we did her TPO surgery, she really had problems in the ring. Blowing off? sure, I guess. Justified? Yes. 

Maybe you could explain more what you mean when you say she blows you off..? Surely you don't mean she just makes a choice to piss you off?


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm sorry if I offended you guys in any way...but this stuff is going to, no matter what you're view point is on it...we all get offended by someone else's way of training. And tell them to do otherwise. I'm not saying that this is the case--just an example.

Okay...maybe I wasn't clear, I DO use food! I give it to her when she does something good. I have it at agility class and put it down at the bottom of the contacts...I give her food when she's had a good run and I play with her because she is play motivated. She loves tug and chase a tennis ball...and do motivational pops and spins and twirls...etc. She loves compulsion games(at least I think that's what they're called...lol.)...and all the crazy things we do! And maybe I'm not using enough play in training...but hey we all realize things, and yeah I have to up my game in Obedience-wise. I know that...and it's a lot of hard work. 

I didn't mean to offend anyone or accuse them of "kissing their dogs butt"...I don't mean literally you do that. And then I thought that you were all saying that I forced her to the point where she says..."hey this teeter stuff I'm not going to do..let's see if I can get away with it." Maddie's like that! She's just testing me. And I didn't say her job was to walk around Rally cones...and do agility things. She has in the past just literally gone off...like walked away from me to see what was on the other side of the ring gate. But she thinks it's a BIG reward going away from me. So...what we're doing is letting her do that...(giving her what she wants..in a way that she's not going to want it in the end).And NOOOO it's not harmful to her at all. It's letting her run off and telling her to get away from me(seeing as that's what she wants), then shooing her out of the "ring"...and turning my back...and if she comes back..give her a few pops on the collar..or micro-prong, and say "with me,with me". And hey..it works!! It actually does!!! 
We all do what works for our dogs...not just what others think. There are a million possibilities out there...we just have to get creative! =]

Okay so maybe I don't have to use a clicker with the bang trick on the teeter. And Katie--I'm sorry, but I just watched the one you posted on here...and didn't see the info on the side...so I'm sorry. But the thing is...how can I practice this at home, other than building a teeter for here..but that may be awhile before we can get to that. So it'll be hard to do it everyday...

Allright...so maybe this isn't only her job...but it's my job to help her in anyway shape or form. We do this game because we love it, we love our dogs, and it's FUN!! I'm not saying that I don't love my dog or hate this sport..or anything we do together. I enjoy the frustrations and working through them....etc. I *try* not to get frustrated with her, but I'm learning to control my anger....little by little. If I show one bit of frustration, Maddie shows it too..and says "see ya! I'm outta here!" So yeah..you'd think I'd have learned that by now...but...no,I haven't..not quite yet. 

And yes...I appreciate all the advice you guys have given me. No doubt about that. So again..I thank you for your time and advice...like I said, we'll see what happens and what works for us...if it doesn't..we're back to square one. I'm sorry if you felt like I offended you or made you angry in the biggest way ever. I didn't mean to. I just thought that you were attacking me for being too forceful in my training...and yes some things I have to..otherwise I wouldn't have some things. Now in agility-no I don't use force because the dog wants to have fun! Just like we do.

Hmm...I think that's all I for now.... And again I'm truly sorry if you felt that I was personally attacking you, my apologies. I'm enjoying the discussion and hearing different things about training...which is a learning experience for me. Just as this is with our dogs!


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

teeter issues.... been there, done that. three times. with the same dog.

We ended up taking almost a year off from trialing the last time it happened. I bought a teeter. Put it in the basement. Started off with it all the way down on the ground barely any tip. Fed every meal on the teeter -- three repetitions each rep getting abut 1/3 of his meal. Every meal every day. Every 2-3 days, we raised the teeter one link. 3 months of every meal on the teeter and we were back to full height. Then I started working on independence, crossing behind, running in front, etc. While we were working at home, we did not do the teeter in class. After 4-5 months at home, we started working on it again in class. He doesn't have the fastest teeter, but he does it. I'm not messing with speed this point as I it's more important to me that he does it than he does it fast. 

For us, it was worth taking the time off to fix the problem since the first two times fixing while we were still trialing didn't work.

Has anyone been able to explain the golden teeter phenomenon?


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Wow. 3 times?!?!!? That's really crazy! I'm really sorry it took that long to get your dog to go confidently up it. But in the end it was worth it, right? I honestly think it's some gene in them that makes them freak out about it...hehe.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

MaddieMagoo said:


> Wow. 3 times?!?!!? That's really crazy! I'm really sorry it took that long to get your dog to go confidently up it. But in the end it was worth it, right?


It was definitely worth it. I think our issues were what they were because he is my novice A dog and the first two times we didn't completely deal with the issue. I had a lot of conversations with a lot of people when it happened the third time before I decided on my course of action. I probably should have had those conversations the first time.

Good luck with working through the issues. I think I can count on one hand the number of goldens I know that haven't had teeter issues. You're certainly not alone.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Wow...lol. Yeah...so is what you told me..what you did the third time? Or what did you do exactly?

Yeah..we'll need all the luck we can get! lol.Hopefully it'll be something that's very minor in the end...


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Talking about why Goldens have teeter issues, my Selli was afraid of the noise of the teeter. In our first series of classes, about the fifth week, the trainer had her dog do the teeter with the other dogs standing around the teeter. Even though we were standing further away than the other dogs and handlers (the trainer was well aware of Goldens and teeter problems), Selli was terrified of the noise. I don't know if that contributed to her eventual refusal to do the teeter, she did have a situation where the trainer did not guide the teeter down when she was just learning it and after that she refused to do the teeter at all until we worked on a teeter laying on the ground, but she reacted to the noise more than any other dog there.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> I don't believe that dogs in general blow things off - it's not really part of their behavior repertoire and it upsets me when I hear "trainers" telling their students that their dogs are being malicious or deviant and blowing them off or getting back at them because they're bratty dogs. Dogs don't wake up in the morning and decide that they really want to get a rise out of their handler and aren't going to do the teeter at the trial today. Sometimes it might seem like that's what's happening when in reality it's stress, lack of understanding of what is being asked or in the case of agility/obedience it's a lack of a reinforcement history - rushing through the progression of learning a concept.
> Erica


This is one of the best comments I've ever read on GRF, and I wish every puppy/dog owner could read it. 

In general, the level of discourse on the whole thread is impressive, & it's heartening to see so many experienced trainers/competitors be so generous with thoughtful advice.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Those things are really cool for woodworking 

Sears has them too. I think they are around $20.

I caught them on sale for $10 each last year.



MurphyTeller said:


> A couple of things - forcing her over the equipment won't work - and it may very well make things worse. My advice would be to put the teeter WAY down and work there - a week is not a lot of time to get over a teeter phobia. If she doesn't complete it in your STD class she won't qualify - if she's still having the issue I'd consider not asking her to do it in trial - better to not attempt than to try and confirm her fear or let her figure out that she doesn't have to do the teeter in trial because you can't fix the problem, cheerlead or put her back on....
> 
> That being said, you could put her back on an obstacle she bails - despite the four paw rule - but expect to be whistled off - IMO that's preferable to leaving the white elephant out there (a fall off the DW/Teeter, etc) and continue on the course...
> 
> Erica


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Just piping in with my 2¢ worth. 

First of all like everyone says agility is all about confidence, and issues always rear their ugly heads at the most inappropriate times. I also agree, no one will care if you skip the teeter in competition, and if anyone asks, say your dog is having a confidence issue and rather than scratch you wanted ring experience so just skipped the scary obstacle for now. Entries are sent in so far in the future this does happen frequently with young dogs. 

Teeters are the only obstacle that really moves under the dog so it is not un common to have issues. My lab alwasy loved the contacts, she flew over the teeter once at full height and it SLAMMED to the ground, she didn't stop at the apex, and it I am sure stung the crap out of her. She absolutely STOPS and tips and then proceeds. It makes a slow teeter in the trial but I can't change her mind. I would rather her do it her way, than not at all so I don't pressure her. 

My DH made us a teeter. When Teddi was a pup starting at 10-12 weeks. We set the teeter as low as it could go (8") and then put a brick under each end so it only moved about 2" and we taught her to go over that and get used to it and STOP on the end. Then as she was over 6 months we took the brick out. Still only 8" so no harm on her, and it was in grass. As she was old enough she progressed to full height, still on grass. Her first time in class she got to do the teeter, I knew she would be 'over confident' because of our home teeter. I told my trainer to spot her on one side, I was on the other, we got a good bow at the top and sure enough when it went BANG she spooked. Because of our other work it did not take long just lots of praise and treats to get over the bang fear. She also got scared when bars hit the floor in class. Treats are great for reinforcement but can't be used as bribes as stated before. 

There will always be skills you are returning to, to improve part of agility. Don't "worry" about the teeter because that will add un necessary stress too. Just go back to beginner basics and work on it. That is the fun of this sport. After your first trial you may find other skills that need more improvment. You learn A LOT at your first trial. 

Most important have fun! The worst thing that can possibly happen is you won't Q and you won't be the first that has happened to! Heck you won't be the first for any mishap. I am sure all has happened before!!!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I don't think you're understanding anything people are saying to you. Your dog is not "testing you," dogs don't do that. My dog would never dream of not doing the teeter because he knows all the good stuff that comes when he does it. He sometimes breaks his start line stay if I haven't reinforced it enough recently, that's not blowing me off or testing me, it's reminding me that if I want the dog to stay I need to make it worth his while. If you gradually got her comfortable with the movement of the teeter and made doing the teeter reinforcing enough for her, she would do it every time. If you made staying with you in the rally ring more reinforcing than looking at what's on the other side of the gate, she wouldn't leave. 

And if you didn't pop her collar when she came back into the ring, she'd probably come back a lot quicker. Collar pops are not motivational. If you think they are, go tie something around your neck and ask someone to pull on it and then decide whether you want to stay within ten feet of this person.

You can make as big of a deal as you want about doing what works for your dog, but you seem to have no clue what works for your dog. You've just decided "this is what is going to work" but you're not getting the results with it that you should be. You're using motivators that she obviously doesn't like enough to work for, and then you're accusing her of "blowing you off" when really you're the one blowing her off. You don't decide what your dog will work for, your dog decides what she finds reinforcing enough to work for, and if you don't listen to her you're never going to get a consistent and happy agility/rally dog. It might be reinforcing to YOU to be like "oh look at all the crazy things we do, we don't need food because my dog loves to play with me so much," etc. But your dog doesn't find all of that reinforcing enough to stay with you, or to go over a big scary teeter. So you need to use something else.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Yet again, I am reminded of the great Bob Bailey:

"If what you're doing isn't working, change *YOUR* behavior."

AND

" We have to make it worth the animal's while to play our silly little games."


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

MaddieMagoo said:


> Allright...so maybe this isn't only her job...but it's my job to help her in anyway shape or form. We do this game because we love it, we love our dogs, and it's FUN!! I'm not saying that I don't love my dog or hate this sport..or anything we do together. I enjoy the frustrations and working through them....etc. I *try* not to get frustrated with her, but I'm learning to control my anger....little by little. If I show one bit of frustration, Maddie shows it too..and says "see ya! I'm outta here!" So yeah..you'd think I'd have learned that by now...but...no,I haven't..not quite yet.


I don't want to tell you how to train... But no matter what your training methods are anger should never be a part of it. You may need to take a step back and look at the big picture. Break the behavior own into smaller pieces and find a way that the two of you as a team can accomplish them as a team. Make the steps and goals attainable enough that you are not having feelings of anger/frustration. You want a high rate of success... I wish you luck.

I love #10 of Nancy Gyes Agility Commandments
"Strive first to be the best Good Sport in the country. Never show anger towards your dog on course. YOU ARE THE ONE WHO TAUGHT HIM HIS JOB. Leave the ring smiling and reward the dog for the job he did. "
http://www.powerpawsagility.com/articles/commandments.html


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Yet again, I am reminded of the great Bob Bailey:
> 
> "If what you're doing isn't working, change *YOUR* behavior."


I was going to stay out of this post after this morning, because I think a lot of good advice is falling on deaf ears - I think a lot of us were trying to help an agility newbie through some of the "first performance dog" mistakes that we made. But a forum isn't always about the individual and there are people with similar problems who maybe aren't willing to ask the questions...Perhaps the lesson here is that we as humans need to make mistakes to learn from them.

And while I don't like to compare canine behavior to human behavior - if you were at your place of employment and your boss came by your office and said "Hey, Janey, you're doing a fantastic job - no one does it better than you - we couldn't survive without you" and then casually mentioned "but we're just unable to pay you for your work on Monday through Thursday - but we'll definitely pay you for your work on Friday if the rest of your week was up to standard." I'd imagine that most of us would be updating our resume!

Now if your boss came to you and said "Hey, bang-up job you're doing. Love your work - Lunch is on me, where should we go?" I'd bet your reaction and impression of your job would change considerably.

The same is true for our dogs - sure they get a regular "pay day" but they also get that reinforcement randomly - and like a correction (and what is and isn't a correction to a particular dog) a positive reinforcement also varies from dog to dog...

Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*Sometimes it might seem like that's what's happening when in reality it's stress, lack of understanding of what is being asked or in the case of agility/obedience it's a lack of a reinforcement history - rushing through the progression of learning a concept. *

BINGO! Lack of reinforcement history is the single, biggest error people make in training, IMO. Thinking the dog "knows" or "should know" something long before he really does, and then getting frustated, or worse, correcting the dog for an incomplete performance.

I'll tell ya what... training a chicken was a GREAT example of the power of reinforcement history. The chicken couldn't care less if I praised it, pet it, or tried to play motivational games with it. I knew what the reinforcer was (feed cup) and the chicken performed correctly once I successfully reinforced it enough. Being a different species, we were less likely to want to rationalize why the chicken would fail to perform. We simply changed our behavior to improve the timing and rate of reinforcement and low and behold, the birds would learn what we were trying to teach!


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> BINGO! Lack of reinforcement history is the single, biggest error people make in training, IMO. Thinking the dog "knows" or "should know" something long before he really does, and then getting frustated, or worse, correcting the dog for an incomplete performance.


And it's through positive reinforcement history that the obstacles themselves become rewarding - we work very hard to make the obstacles fun. The weaves as an example of that: much of agility equipment is pretty fun for most dogs - they've generalized the concept of what a jump is (and isn't) and they have a history of jump = good thing. For the weaves they have to collect for the entry and THINK about the obstacle performance - and that's why we see a lot of problems at the weaves with green dogs - stress is not always going to manifest over jumps and tunnels - but when the rapid motion and course progression stops and the dogs have to think - well...it's really hard.

So in training I stop and reinforce the weaves (and this can be applied to any obstacle) almost every time in practice - I pay heavily for entries - tossing the treat, food tube or toy behind him for a well thought out entry - particularly for a really strong effort. If I work him through 12 I'll toss the treat out ahead of him or put a food tube at the end of the weaves for something to drive towards. Does he stop in competition for a treat after the weaves? No - there's such a reinforcement history there that I can cheer him on in the weaves and give him an equally strong "GO YOU!" at the end of the weaves - for him at his level of training and understanding of the game that's enough right now (and of course the "paycheck" at the end). I never take effort for granted - any time my dog is having fun with me on course is a rewardable moment - in a sense I reward effort more than performance - because the performance comes with the effort - but if you don't have effort and a willing partner who's into the game it's not much fun to play by myself...Lord knows I'm not out there to do the jumping, weaving or running through tunnels 

Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

_*And it's through positive reinforcement history that the obstacles themselves become rewarding...*_

True 'dat. Cues themselves become reinforcers! What an awesome "perk" for positively trained dogs!


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