# "Typey" golden retriever



## Megora

I don't know if "typey" is the same as having an older look. 

Typey - if you think about the biggest names as far as the past 10-20 years in conformation, I think a lot of the dogs fit an outline and/or overall look for certain regions/area/breeders. 

It's actually not just conformation. 

A lot of people know a Meadowpond golden (for example) by sight. Same thing with Sunfire goldens and Tanbarks. There's distinctive styles that's pretty much recognizable and probably has a lot to do with the influential dogs in those programs. 

Older look - might mean more "moderate" for a lot of people. I hope the other ladies step in and explain this better than me, but moderate means that the dog is not "just barely meeting" the breed standard from one end or another. Moderate means the dog is correctly proportioned - size, weight, coat, structure, etc. It means the dog is not overdone (excessive in any way). 

Your breed judges are more likely to KNOW the breed standard and KNOW the breed so when they are standing there in the middle of the ring, they are looking at how these dogs meet the standard. And there is a visual ideal which many breeder judges have - though even there, you get some politics or preferences, so not perfect. You DO have breeder judges who themselves may not have moderate by any definition dogs.... and that affects what they are looking for when standing in the ring.

Non breeder judges - may be more hit or miss as far as what qualities they are looking for. And you may get more judges who are swayed by coat, size, movement or other specific things. 

Probably a good example of that is next month I'm looking at showing to a couple judges who are St. Bernard people. In theory, this means they may be swayed by coat and size more than anything else. My dog's not huge (69# and his coat is perfect for his age) so it's not a given that they will like my dog. I still will probably show to them because it's worth the experience and I'd other be bored at home. :bowl:


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## NewfieMom

This discussion is fascinating to me and so far beyond me that it frightens me. I believe that although there are breed standards that should only vary very slightly over the years, that there are actually fashions in what is popular among this breed (and probably any breed). My dog was red in 1978 and came from a well known breeder of that time (Torch Flinn). I never showed her. Now most of the Goldens I see are far lighter and many are far more feathered than the dogs I saw back when I had Brit.

And from what you are saying that is the mere tip of the iceberg when it comes to showing and politics and opinions.

NewfieMom


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## cubbysan

I know I can definitely see a dog and recognize that it is from an East Coast breeder, such as Nautilus or Twin Beau D. I always thought that was more of a style.

I used to follow Great Pyreneeses in the show ring, and yes, I do remember seeing a Saint Bernard breeder judge choosing the bigger Pyrs and the ones that did look like Saints. Thank goodness goldens are nothing like Saints in size or looks. 

So much to learn...


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## Megora

I think Tigathoe is closer behind a lot of more field or obedience line goldens as opposed to conformation goldens.... conformation goldens have been heavily line bred on other influences (Asterling, Faera, Summit, Rush Hill, Birnim Wood, Nautilus, etc). Kiowa comes to mind (I had a boy who was 1/2 Asterling and 1/2 Kiowa - and he had a lot of Tigathoe behind him because of the Kiowa). 

You do have plenty of darker gold (red's not an acceptable color) golden retrievers out there in the conformation ring. I think if you look at the goldens winning the national specialties the last few years... dark gold wins. 

Attached is a picture of a golden owned by another GRF member (I met her gorgeous boy earlier this year and he did VERY WELL while showing here) - he's a dark golden color and not too far out of the ordinary as far as goldens that I've seen showing around here. 

For that matter - I tell everyone who goes on about my boy being light... I tell them to check his nose and jacket. He's going to darken up nicely in the next couple years. That has a lot to do with the Summit and Rush Hill influence behind him.


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## K9-Design

Hmmmmmm to describe it I guess I would have to say that it is a dog tending toward moderation and no excess nor trendy fads of the breed ring -- a dog who is strong in what makes a golden a golden : silhouette, proper proportion of leg to body, topline, headpiece & expression, moderate coat, sound, athletic movement, nothing exaggerated. We would hope these are the things being rewarded by the breeder judge.
The opposite would be a more exaggerated dog, or one who's breed type has been sacrificed to better attract the eye of the all-round/all-breed judge. I.e. longer body, shorter legs, sloping topline, straight front, high head carriage to give the exaggerated, flashy movement seen in cockers, setters, etc. Excessive coat that can be sculpted to exaggerate the dog's features. Completely incorrect for a golden but very eye catching in the breed ring! We would hope the breeder judge would see through this!


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## DanaRuns

I think Anney ^^^ had a pretty good description. I just think of typey as "does it scream Golden Retriever at you," as type means the combination of traits that make a Golden Retriever immediately identifiable and distinguishable from any other breed. I think silhouette is a very important aspect of that. But I agree that typey dogs tend to the more moderate.


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## NewfieMom

Megora said:


> You do have plenty of darker gold (red's not an acceptable color) golden retrievers out there in the conformation ring. I think if you look at the goldens winning the national specialties the last few years... dark gold wins.


I will not be showing a Golden for conformation or obedience, so this information is just for my own knowledge base, not for my choice of a dog. I like red dogs (dogs that are what I _consider_ red, I should say!) I do not want to malign excellent breeders or proud owners by calling their dark goldens, "red".

I consider the dog on the left hand side of your photo labelled The Puddle Jumper and The Weatherman-the one with the white face-to be "red". Since I assume that that dog (The Puddle Jumper?) is a show dog, perhaps his (her?) color is considered to be dark golden. Please tell me.

I also loved the 2014 Four Lakes litter because it was so "red". I know that Four Lakes is considered a highly desirable breeder. I doubt that Jane would be breeding dogs of an "unacceptable" color. Are those dogs that appear red to me also considered "dark golden"?

Finally, I have only unearthed on photo of my dog, Brit, taken when she was quite old and had a very white face. Her coat color shows, however. Please look at her and tell me if she would be considered "red" or "dark golden".

I do not want to hijack this thread. I was enjoying the original topic about how breeder and non-breeder judges looked at dogs. I hope to be able to return to that topic. But if you can spare a few moments for my threadjack, I would appreciate it. I think other people would probably find it educational, too!

Thank you!

Brit's Pedigree...Five generation pedigree: Britannia of Joie de Paris

NewfieMom

Photo of my late Golden Retriever "Britannia of Joie de Paris" attached.


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## Eowyn

Newfie mom, Irish setters are red (usually).
Look at the picture of the goldens on this site. The last 2 would probably be consider "red" although in reality they are dark gold. Extremes are not desired in the breed ring, but it still frequently happens (more on the light than dark end though). Personally I would only consider that last one "red". 
Golden Retriever Color Spectrum


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## Megora

> I consider the dog on the left hand side of your photo labelled The Puddle Jumper and Weatherman-the one with the white face-to be "red". Since I assume that that dog (Puddle Jumper?) is a show dog, perhaps his (her?) color is considered to be dark golden. Please tell me.


 I think you mean Jacks (left side)? 

He comes from conformation lines (more specifically Gold Rush and Sugarbush, but in the 5 generations behind him - Asterling, Baylor, Birnim Wood, Laurell, Thornlea, Trailsend, Beaumaris, etc) , but he was not bred to be a show dog. 

He's medium gold. Lighter when he was younger and like all goldens, darkened up to a true gold color as he's gotten older.  

Bertie (my show boy) will probably be a smidge darker than Jacks before he's done, but he will still be more medium gold than what it commonly referred to as red.

Your dog looks gold to me.


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## Ljilly28

Recognizing a dog's line or kennel by looking at it is more an issue of style than type. To me, a "typey" dog is one who exudes the traits that separate a golden retriever from a generic retriever. If you picture a stool sitting on three strong legs, one of the legs is breed type, one is structure, and one is movement. You can have a dog with a very good structure that lacks breed type. I know a judge who will readily admit her dogs are strong in working ability and correct in structure, but are deficient in type( she has a different breed & her coats are not always correct though they should be characteristic.) I own one very typey dog who moves wide in the front and a dogs who is the whole stool with all three legs. Some judges put a premium on breed type- some will choose a dog that moves correctly and has an excellent structure with a head that is maybe a bit lab-like over a dog with trememdous breed type standing still who moves in a faulty way and vice versa. Sometimes dogs are the whole package with great health, great temperament, strong breed type, correct movement, and solid structure. If the judge does not find that dog in her ring, she must compromise. That is where you hear "movement" judge etc. For me personally, breed type is extremely important, and a "typey" dog is one who is all golden retriever in his/her details- no ifs ands or buts. My two favorite pet goldens of mine have things that detract from their breed type (but not from the intense love in my heart) heavy in the flews, eyes too round, hare's feet instead of cat's feet, too much coat, not enough coat, not enough bone & substance, too much bone & substance. It is fun living with multiple dogs of one breed bc you can really see the finer discrepancies.


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## Loisiana

Example of what most people would consider a red dog. But the difference between dark gold vs. red can be subjective.


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## my4goldens

Loisiana said:


> Example of what most people would consider a red dog. But the difference between dark gold vs. red can be subjective.


Love this dogs color and I actually have seen him in person.


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## NewfieMom

*Who is He?*

Who is this red dog and why does everyone know him? Did he win field championships? Are "red" dogs allowed to compete in those? Who decides how red is too red given that the dog has a pedigree?

NewfieMom

PS-By the way, I think he is beautiful, too, although _my_ dog was nowhere near his color!


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## cubbysan

Ljilly28 said:


> Recognizing a dog's line or kennel by looking at it is more an issue of style than type. To me, a "typey" dog is one who exudes the traits that separate a golden retriever from a generic retriever. If you picture a stool sitting on three strong legs, one of the legs is breed type, one is structure, and one is movement. You can have a dog with a very good structure that lacks breed type. I know a judge who will readily admit her dogs are strong in working ability and correct in structure, but are deficient in type( she has a different breed & her coats are not always correct though they should be characteristic.) I own one very typey dog who moves wide in the front and a dogs who is the whole stool with all three legs. Some judges put a premium on breed type- some will choose a dog that moves correctly and has an excellent structure with a head that is maybe a bit lab-like over a dog with trememdous breed type standing still who moves in a faulty way and vice versa. Sometimes dogs are the whole package with great health, great temperament, strong breed type, correct movement, and solid structure. If the judge does not find that dog in her ring, she must compromise. That is where you hear "movement" judge etc. For me personally, breed type is extremely important, and a "typey" dog is one who is all golden retriever in his/her details- no ifs ands or buts. My two favorite pet goldens of mine have things that detract from their breed type (but not from the intense love in my heart) heavy in the flews, eyes too round, hare's feet instead of cat's feet, too much coat, not enough coat, not enough bone & substance, too much bone & substance. It is fun living with multiple dogs of one breed bc you can really see the finer discrepancies.


Thank you! I really like your analogy of the stool.


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## PrincessDaisy

Jodie,
Who is that beautiful red dog?

Max


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## NewfieMom

PrincessDaisy said:


> Jodie,
> Who is that beautiful red dog?
> 
> Max


I'm glad you asked, Max. I asked the same thing above!

NewfieMom


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## Loisiana

I actually have no idea who the dog is, I just went into K9data and looked for a nice looking red dog to show as an example, this was the first one I found.


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## NewfieMom

Loisiana said:


> I actually have no idea who the dog is, I just went into K9data and looked for a nice looking red dog to show as an example, this was the first one I found.


I believe that *my4goldens* said that she had seen him in person. I would love to know who he is!

NewfieMom


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## Ljilly28

Being a handsome dog to us, and being a "typey" dog are very different. This dog is laying down, so there is no way it be discussed fully in terms of its breed type, and what makes it lacking in type on the one hand or typey ( exceptional- exuding breed type) on the other. We just have the head and coat to look at, and we need to feel the texture of the coat to know much about it:

How is its pigment on its nose and eye rims? Pitch Black? A chessie, Vizsla, or Toller have flesh colored or pink eye rims and noses, but it is a serious detraction from breed type in a golden. 

How is its ear set? too high? Length of ear? 

How is its muzzle? 

These are a few things a judge is checking against the ideal standard in his head in evaluating breed type in the dog. 

Going back and applying the standard word by word to the dog about 4,500 times is great to start to get a feel for what is correct breed type in a golden, and what is so exceptional it is "typey".



> Ears rather short with front edge attached well behind and just above the eye and falling close to cheek. When pulled forward, tip of ear should just cover the eye. Low, hound-like ear set to be faulted.
> 
> Nose black or brownish black, though fading to a lighter shade in cold weather not serious._ Pink nose or one seriously lacking in pigmentation to be faulted_.
> 
> Head: _Broad in skull_, slightly arched laterally and longitudinally without prominence of frontal bones (forehead) or occipital bones. Stop well defined but not abrupt. Foreface deep and wide, nearly as long as skull. Muzzle straight in profile, blending smooth and strongly into skull; when viewed in profile or from above, slightly deeper and wider at stop than at tip.
> 
> Eyes: friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead. Dogs showing evidence of functional abnormality of eyelids or eyelashes (such as, but not limited to, trichiasis, entropion, ectropion, or distichiasis) are to be excused from the ring
Click to expand...


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## Loisiana

I didn't post the picture as an example of type, I posted it because there was a question of what was considered a "red" Golden. I think most people who see that dog would consider him to be red (plus when I saw the picture it made me smile ), so I choose that as an example of what a red Golden Retriever might look like.


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## NewfieMom

Loisiana said:


> I didn't post the picture as an example of type, I posted it because there was a question of what was considered a "red" Golden. I think most people who see that dog would consider him to be red (plus when I saw the picture it made me smile ), so I choose that as an example of what a red Golden Retriever might look like.


That is what I thought and I appreciated it!!!

Deb
(NewfieMom)


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## PrincessDaisy

As to "type" or very breed standard, whatever phrase you choose, I am trying to learn a lot here. My experience has me thinking one thing, and my participation here at GRF has me changing to another.

I understand not wanting to say one GRF member dog is an excellent example of the breed while another is not so much. Hurt feelings and politics and such. So, historically speaking, can we talk about James' sire "Boomer", Pedigree: Am CH Signature's Sound Barrier OS ?

This dog is becoming my minds eye notion of a 10 out of 10 breed standard Golden.

Can't find a photo of James stacked, but I started with him many months ago during that previous thread about standard vs judges and their perceptions. I have looked at many K9data photos, and I keep coming back to Boomer. Someone educate me here.


Max


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## K9-Design

It is very hard to judge a dog based on one picture. Especially unfair for a long-dead, great of the breed like Boomer. I can't say this particular photo is "it" for me. 

Here are a few stacked pics of James:


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## PrincessDaisy

James sure is a beautiful dog.

Hard to believe that he is still producing puppies. I asssume that they are very expensive pups.

All of you serious breeders of Goldens are encouraged to comment. Yes, I understand that pictures are hard to decipher when of a heavy coated dog. Structure for a working Golden that best exemplifies the Golden Retriever standard is what I want to see photos of. Being dyslexic, the written word is hard to conceptualize at times. But photos, diagrams, blueprints, those do the trick.

Again, I do not want to cause a problem by using current GRF member dogs as an example. Although there are several that I am coming to appreciate as my perceptions are are changing.


Max


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## PrincessDaisy

Is there any way to search K9data for offspring of two different sire's to see of their lines merged?


Max


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## Tayla's Mom

I'm sure neither of my girls are examples of good breeding so no need to point out faults. Both are rescues. Tayla, the larger, is from a "breeder" in TN and Lily is, from what I'm told, a breeder in Lakeland where she was a breeder. Their color is what I find very attractive. I would assume it is a dark gold.


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## cubbysan

Tayla's Mom said:


> I'm sure neither of my girls are examples of good breeding so no need to point out faults. Both are rescues. Tayla, the larger, is from a "breeder" in TN and Lily is, from what I'm told, a breeder in Lakeland where she was a breeder. Their color is what I find very attractive. I would assume it is a dark gold.


Your Tayla looks a lot like my MacKenzie. She is also a rescue.


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## Alaska7133

I love the color of Tayla and Lilly. It is to me the truest color. But without color photography back in the day, we'll never know what color they were originally, unfortunately.


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## Ljilly28

One interesting thing is that two very well known conformation stud dogs of the past were quite red, but painstakingly dyed lighter by hand.


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## Alaska7133

You mean, dyed in the photograph?


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## Eowyn

Ljilly28 said:


> One interesting thing is that two very well known conformation stud dogs of the past were quite red, but painstakingly dyed lighter by hand.


Oh now that is going to drive me crazy (wondering who was dyed lighter)!


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## Eowyn

PrincessDaisy said:


> All of you serious breeders of Goldens are encouraged to comment. Yes, I understand that pictures are hard to decipher when of a heavy coated dog. Structure for a working Golden that best exemplifies the Golden Retriever standard is what I want to see photos of. Being dyslexic, the written word is hard to conceptualize at times. But photos, diagrams, blueprints, those do the trick.
> 
> Again, I do not want to cause a problem by using current GRF member dogs as an example. Although there are several that I am coming to appreciate as my perceptions are are changing.
> 
> Max


I would be willing to post a stacked picture of my girl if more experienced members wanted to tell what they thought of her conformation. I need to look and make sure I have a good picture of her (I have the one in my sig pic, but it's a bad stack) though. Would anyone want to do that?


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## LJack

Eowyn said:


> I would be willing to post a stacked picture of my girl if more experienced members wanted to tell what they thought of her conformation. I need to look and make sure I have a good picture of her (I have the one in my sig pic, but it's a bad stack) though. Would anyone want to do that?


If you are looking for input, there is a Facebook group you might consider. https://www.facebook.com/groups/CanineBreederEvaluations/


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## Eowyn

LJack said:


> If you are looking for input, there is a Facebook group you might consider. https://www.facebook.com/groups/CanineBreederEvaluations/


No, I was offering to let people go over my dog for Max's information. Max implied wanting people to go over goldens conformation, but not wanting to use forum members dogs I would assume so as not to hurt anyone's feelings. I was saying I would be willing to volunteer photos of my dog.


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## LJack

Oh, I got you.


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## Megora

I've looked in on the online evaluations page that Laura was referring to and find myself cringing about the harshness of some of the people there - sometimes with what are just bad pictures of the dogs. It could well be the dogs look actually pretty good if set up right, but the pictures do them no favors.... and the feedback can be pretty darn brutal.


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