# Golden Retriever Rescues...from China?



## GOAussies (Dec 3, 2021)

I wanted to ask for the opinions of golden retriever experts on this...One of the golden retriever rescues I network with as part of my pet sitting business has started taking in unwanted golden retrievers from China because there is a shortage of goldens in need of rescue not just in my state, but nationwide. Do you see any potential problems that could come with bringing in rescues from other countries? Rescue A Golden of Arizona - Available Dogs

Not trying to badmouth anybody; whatever choice they make is for them to decide, but I'm honestly curious about whether rescuing a golden from a place like China is a good idea or not?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

GOAussies said:


> I wanted to ask for the opinions of golden retriever experts on this...One of the golden retriever rescues I network with as part of my pet sitting business has started taking in unwanted golden retrievers from China because there is a shortage of goldens in need of rescue not just in my state, but nationwide. Do you see any potential problems that could come with bringing in rescues from other countries? Rescue A Golden of Arizona - Available Dogs
> 
> Not trying to badmouth anybody; whatever choice they make is for them to decide, but I'm honestly curious about whether rescuing a golden from a place like China is a good idea or not?


There has been a lot of discussion about this. This is certainly what some would consider “retail rescue”.
Part of the problem lies in the fact that some of these animals are bred for the sole purpose of import to the US to sell as “rescues”. More commonly seen with breeds like French bulldogs.


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## GOAussies (Dec 3, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> There has been a lot of discussion about this. This is certainly what some would consider “retail rescue”.
> Part of the problem lies in the fact that some of these animals are bred for the sole purpose of import to the US to sell as “rescues”. More commonly seen with breeds like French bulldogs.


I've heard of retail rescue but I don't really understand it. How do people manage to sell dogs specifically to rescues?

I've been an animal rescue volunteer for a few years now and my fellow volunteers have absolutely no desire to make a profit; they only want to see more animals go to good homes and decrease the number of unwanted and euthanized animals in our area. Are there seriously shelters and rescues that have a profit motive behind their animals? Or could it be that they unknowingly bought animals from a reseller thinking they were saving the animals from a bad situation?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

GOAussies said:


> I've heard of retail rescue but I don't really understand it. How do people manage to sell dogs specifically to rescues?
> 
> I've been an animal rescue volunteer for a few years now and my fellow volunteers have absolutely no desire to make a profit; they only want to see more animals go to good homes and decrease the number of unwanted and euthanized animals in our area. Are there seriously shelters and rescues that have a profit motive behind their animals? Or could it be that they unknowingly bought animals from a reseller thinking they were saving the animals from a bad situation?


I think it’s both. There was a rescue that was featured on “The Rocky Mountain Vet” that came under fire for bad practices. I’ll see if I can find the article.

WaPo covered a story of rescues here running out of easily adoptable dogs/breeds (basically not bullies), and going to animal auctions to buy purebreds (at high prices!) and then offer those animals out for adoption at exorbitant prices. I think the heart of some people is in the right place, but its definitely financial for others.

Along the same vein is foreign retail rescue. A big one that comes to mind is Big Dog Ranch, who had a female golden retriever from somewhere that was pregnant and the puppies were adopted out for 2 or 3k.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/investigations/dog-auction-rescue-groups-donations/



National Mill Dog Rescue On Probation After State Finds Violations Impacting Animal Safety - Colorado one



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/29/sunday-review/adopt-rescue-dog-south.html



I cant find a source that i feel is accurate for foreign trade, but I will say that purebred dogs are NOT being used in the meat market in large numbers. When a rescue group important 30 dogs and they’re all golden retrievers or Samoyeds, those are not the dogs that are being eaten, no matter which “Chinese monk” claims they are.


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## GOAussies (Dec 3, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> I think it’s both. There was a rescue that was featured on “The Rocky Mountain Vet” that came under fire for bad practices. I’ll see if I can find the article.
> 
> WaPo covered a story of rescues here running out of easily adoptable dogs/breeds (basically not bullies), and going to animal auctions to buy purebreds (at high prices!) and then offer those animals out for adoption at exorbitant prices. I think the heart of some people is in the right place, but its
> 
> ...


Wow, that's a rotten deal. That's definitely not the kind of rescue I work with, for which I'm grateful. It does get aggravating, though, when animal rescue-only advocates, however well-meaning they may be, condemn people for buying from even a reputable breeder. 

I think I may have mentioned this before, but I'll say it again just in case: There are over *300* different breeds of dogs in existence around the world today; *a very small percentage of those dogs are in shelters and rescues!* Here in AZ, anyway, we don't see a variety of breeds in shelters. Usually it's always multiples of a few of the same breeds and mixes, the majority being pit bulls, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, and their mixes.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Another dangerous thing about importing dogs from overseas for “rescue” is that they bring diseases. There was a brucellosis outbreak in Michigan or Wisconsin within the last couple of years from imported dogs. I believe there have also been cases of parvo and maybe even rabies from these overseas dogs.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

GOAussies said:


> Wow, that's a rotten deal. That's definitely not the kind of rescue I work with, for which I'm grateful. It does get aggravating, though, when animal rescue-only advocates, however well-meaning they may be, condemn people for buying from even a reputable breeder.
> 
> I think I may have mentioned this before, but I'll say it again just in case: There are over *300* different breeds of dogs in existence around the world today; *a very small percentage of those dogs are in shelters and rescues!* Here in AZ, anyway, we don't see a variety of breeds in shelters. Usually it's always multiples of a few of the same breeds and mixes, the majority being pit bulls, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, and their mixes.


Im from Florida and I would say 80% of the dogs for adoption down there are bully breed mixes


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Americans want to “rescue” to feel good about themselves and about “saving a dog in need of a home” but want to also have a purebred dog for aesthetics and temperament and likely because domestic shelters are FULL of bully mixes that are not desirable. That’s where retail rescue fills that need. 

Rescues buy purebred dogs from overseas puppy mills, advertise them as being saved from the meat trade (appeal to peoples need to save animals) and adopt them out for extremely high prices. The rescues make money, the buyers are willing to pay to “rescue” a dog but still get the breed they want. In 2019 or 2020…can’t remember exactly, the US imported something like 1 million dogs — a HIGHLY unregulated process BTW. Yet animal rights activists claim we have an overpopulation problem here.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Another dangerous thing about importing dogs from overseas for “rescue” is that they bring diseases. There was a brucellosis outbreak in Michigan or Wisconsin within the last couple of years from imported dogs. I believe there have also been cases of parvo and maybe even rabies from these overseas dogs.


The dog flus too.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

There will always be scams like this as long as there are gullible, ignorant, virtue signaling or just plain stupid buyers.


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## mariartist (8 mo ago)

Emmdenn said:


> Americans want to “rescue” to feel good about themselves and about “saving a dog in need of a home” but want to also have a purebred dog for aesthetics and temperament and likely because domestic shelters are FULL of bully mixes that are not desirable. That’s where retail rescue fills that need.
> 
> Rescues buy purebred dogs from overseas puppy mills, advertise them as being saved from the meat trade (appeal to peoples need to save animals) and adopt them out for extremely high prices. The rescues make money, the buyers are willing to pay to “rescue” a dog but still get the breed they want. In 2019 or 2020…can’t remember exactly, the US imported something like 1 million dogs — a HIGHLY unregulated process BTW. Yet animal rights activists claim we have an overpopulation problem here.


Thank you for articulating this so well! I know some people who have gotten “rescue” dogs from Korea who snob their nose at buying from ethical breeders. It’s always given me pause, I’m like are all these dogs really rescued from “meat markets” like they claim? something tells me that is not accurate. Maybe it started out that way? It’s always made me uncomfortable when people bring in dogs from other countries when there are shelters full of dogs here, and still act like they are better than everyone else. I’ve never heard of retail rescue but it makes so much sense. you’re right they are not importing bully breeds which every American shelter is full to the brim with. When I told a girl who is involved in Korean rescue that I was researching golden breeders she tried to convince me to adopt one from Korea as they are “used in meat markets there a lot” i call bull on that there is no way Korea is full of golden retriever meat markets but I didn’t know enough to dispute her claims. Makes sense that they are puppy mill dogs being sold as “rescues”


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## sweiss1590 (Aug 14, 2021)

What about GRs from Turkey? Our local GR rescue org states they import most of their dogs from the streets, forests, and shelters of Turkey. They have also flown in GRs from China. Travel costs are built in to a higher adoption fee.

We have adopted two GRs from this org in years past, before I guess the US supply must have dried up and they turned to foreign lands.

This org's web site does not talk specifically about "meat market" GRs, so I don't know if this post is germane to this discussion; and it doesn't look like that org's web site has been updated in years.

So . . . where are the adoptable GRs coming from in 2023? Domestically, GRs appear to be in such high demand that they get snapped up from rescues and shelters immediately.

Sadly, one of our three dachshunds passed away last month, and we are eager to adopt a GR again.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

sweiss1590 said:


> What about GRs from Turkey? Our local GR rescue org states they import most of their dogs from the streets, forests, and shelters of Turkey. They have also flown in GRs from China. Travel costs are built in to a higher adoption fee.
> 
> We have adopted two GRs from this org in years past, before I guess the US supply must have dried up and they turned to foreign lands.
> 
> ...


I do believe we have a member here with a rescue Golden from Turkey. And I think it’s important to point out that there are still dogs that do need homes and while we should address domestic rescue first, reasonable import is to be expected, but honestly.
Turkey, among other countries, saw a HUGE demand for Goldens at one point in time. As that demand faded, so too did the people willing to house the dogs. A lot of Goldens did end up on the street. Turkey already had a lot of strays on top of that. This also conveniently has an article.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/05/12/status-symbols-no-more-abandoned-golden-retrievers-flown-from-turkey-to-u-s/


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Honestly, I would never support a rescue bringing in foreign dogs. The USDA does basically nothing to regulate the import of these foreign rescue dogs and over a million are imported each year (and that doesn’t count the ones who slip through under the radar). There is a bill (healthy dog importation act I believe it was called) that was introduced maybe last year? trying to get these imports better regulated but I don’t think it ever went anywhere unfortunately. There have been dogs that have brought strains of rabies previously eradicated from the US, brucellosis which is transmissible to humans, flu, and strains of other diseases never previously seen in the US. 

As for the Turkey dogs, I can’t remember where a I saw this, maybe here on the forum, but somebody who actually lives in Turkey (for work or something I think) said that their culture for keeping dogs is completely different than the US. In Turkey it is thought of as cruel to tie, fence in, or leave dogs in the house all day so they are allowed to roam the streets. Basically this person’s take was that rescue people were stealing owned dogs of desirable breeds to make some money off the US’s need to “save” something.

Generally, I just don’t trust rescues. I would have to do some serious vetting of rescues before ever considering a rescue dog. Which I likely won’t as everything here in IL is bully breeds and their mixes which I will not own especially from unknown backgrounds. I have seen articles about rescues going to dog auctions and bidding wars ensue between the rescues over pregnant dogs because they know they can make money off puppies (and by the way, at these auctions they are putting money into the hands of the puppy mill breeders they claim to want to shut down so they are basically supporting poor breeders and keeping them in business.) ASPCA talked about having rescues breed their own dogs to sell. (Making one wonder how often that happens already behind closed doors!?) Countless cases of “sweet” pit bulls with a hidden bite history adopted out to families with children and then hurting or killing someone. And then there is the breeds they come up with to hide the fact a dog is a bully breed or mix. Saw a pit bull of a golden color labeled a golden retriever; several spotted pits called pointers, pits called boxers, lab mixes, etc. Just see way too many cases of lying by rescues to trust them anymore. Then you have the dogs that any humane person would know should be euthanized; but the retail rescues put those dogs through agony to have expensive medical procedures (which may help them live but often with poor quality of life) and use them as fundraiser dogs to scoop up money for the procedure plus extra for their pockets because people open their wallets wide for a good sob story. The one that really ruffled my feathers was a rescue trying to fundraise off a brucellosis dog-that dog is a danger to both dogs and humans and they were expecting to somehow miraculously cure it and were taking applications for its adoption. Super irresponsible! Saw another rescue adopting out distemper dogs. So yeah, it’s sad, but rescues can’t be trusted to be on the moral high ground anymore than anyone else. Have to vet your rescues just as closely or even more so than breeders to find a good one. Anyway, there’s my book of an opinion!


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## Sankari (12 mo ago)

SRW said:


> There will always be scams like this as long as there are gullible, ignorant, virtue signaling or just plain stupid buyers.


Wow thanks for this thread. And all the info put here. I must admit I'm one of those that didn't know about this issue at all or that it existed. I'm probably falling into the category that SRW mentions here because this situation didn't exist back in Europe. So I am learning about this now. Thank you for this...

I am actually curious about the rescue Goldens in Turkey because I would think geographically we were nearer in France to get their rescues instead of going all the way in the US. We have not been innundated by these Goldens in the triborder area. In our rescue back home, it was so difficult to find a lab or a golden. In fact none existed during the time we looked before we decided to actually go to an ethical golden retriever breeder. The breeds frequently found in our rescue were dobermans, German shepherds, rottweilers and most had such strict rules that it was difficult to adopt them. The rescue really wanted a very, very experienced owner to take these breeds. So generally no kids, fences yards, etc... And sometimes flat out would mention the dog in particular would not be a good fit for homes with children.

@Goldens&Friesians that's true regarding their mentality of keeping in dogs in Turkey and some Asian (West Asia, South Asia and South East Asia) countries as well🤦🏽‍♀️ but things have changed somewhat. 
I heard from my grandmothers (one who lives in Singapore and the other who used to live in Iran) that these dogs "knew" how to come home - whatever that means 😐 In Singapore, this is no longer possible but back in the day, it was a fishing village and people just had a different way of life..

But also, people used to poison these dogs by leaving food out for them. My granny in Iran stopped allowing her Malinois to roam after her first one passed away in such circumstances. She always had enough space in her estate that I would never understand the reasoning. As I understand, many upper class people like her in Iran have changed their mind regarding letting their dogs roam for other reasons too... She is 93, still lives with her 3 Malinois and never let's them out of her side anymore wherever she is.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Sankari said:


> Wow thanks for this thread. And all the info put here. I must admit I'm one of those that didn't know about this issue at all or that it existed. I'm probably falling into the category that SRW mentions here because this situation didn't exist back in Europe. So I am learning about this now. Thank you for this...
> 
> I am actually curious about the rescue Goldens in Turkey because I would think geographically we were nearer in France to get their rescues instead of going all the way in the US. We have not been innundated by these Goldens in the triborder area. In our rescue back home, it was so difficult to find a lab or a golden. In fact none existed during the time we looked before we decided to actually go to an ethical golden retriever breeder. The breeds frequently found in our rescue were dobermans, German shepherds, rottweilers and most had such strict rules that it was difficult to adopt them. The rescue really wanted a very, very experienced owner to take these breeds. So generally no kids, fences yards, etc... And sometimes flat out would mention the dog in particular would not be a good fit for homes with children.
> 
> ...


This is really good insight into situations a lot of people out in the US/Canada don’t know so much about. And I think highlights how predatory the nature some of these programs can be.


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## Ontariodogsitter (Feb 23, 2020)

I volunteered with Humane society in the sixties and seventies, fostered dogs in the eighties and nineties and took on dogs that have been turned in, that nobody wanted.
At that time it seemed to be mostly about finding homes for dogs that needed some TLC.
Then change slowly crept in, and the cost for the "rescues" started rising beyond the vet care the dogs got before going to their permanent home.
I admit it took me a while to realize that some groups were using "rescue" as a money making proposition and that ended my contribution.
When I started to look for another dog about 5 years ago, I started with the "Rescue" organizations and was absolutely stunned by the money spent on "International rescues".
It's hard not to feel a bit cynical, when one looks a bit deeper in to the system.
Not anything I would ever consider getting involved in, in any capacity.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

I realize this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think we should absolutely never import dogs for rescues, period. I also think we should have less "no kill" shelters because I feel that they too often place animals that shouldn't be placed. As sad as it makes me, there are dogs that aren't fit to be pets either by virtue of their bad breeding causing health issues or bad life experiences that make them unhealthy and unstable, and we need to deal with that so that the ones that ARE fit to be pets aren't left waiting and underfunded.
I have a friend who works in rescue and they're constantly pushing out bully mix breeds, and then dealing with returns after the dogs bite or threaten to bite etc. Yet he doesn't see that the problem is that many of these dogs should not be put up for adoption to begin with.
I hate that this is where things are, but I've come to see that humane euthanasia needs to be a significant part of rescue...and we have enough of our own dogs here so we sure don't need to be importing problems from other countries, not to mention the risk of disease. There was a poor older lady in the UK who fostered one of those imports, and it brought in a disease the UK doesn't even have, and the rescue and all the woman's pet dogs had to be euthanized because of it.
Article: Woman Forced To Put Down Pet Dogs After Catching Rare Disease From Rescue.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Hildae said:


> I realize this might be an unpopular opinion, but I think we should absolutely never import dogs for rescues, period. I also think we should have less "no kill" shelters because I feel that they too often place animals that shouldn't be placed. As sad as it makes me, there are dogs that aren't fit to be pets either by virtue of their bad breeding causing health issues or bad life experiences that make them unhealthy and unstable, and we need to deal with that so that the ones that ARE fit to be pets aren't left waiting and underfunded.
> I have a friend who works in rescue and they're constantly pushing out bully mix breeds, and then dealing with returns after the dogs bite or threaten to bite etc. Yet he doesn't see that the problem is that many of these dogs should not be put up for adoption to begin with.
> I hate that this is where things are, but I've come to see that humane euthanasia needs to be a significant part of rescue...and we have enough of our own dogs here so we sure don't need to be importing problems from other countries, not to mention the risk of disease. There was a poor older lady in the UK who fostered one of those imports, and it brought in a disease the UK doesn't even have, and the rescue and all the woman's pet dogs had to be euthanized because of it.
> Article: Woman Forced To Put Down Pet Dogs After Catching Rare Disease From Rescue.


I don’t think people realize how serious Brucellosis is. It’s an automatic death sentence for dogs.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ArkansasGold said:


> I don’t think people realize how serious Brucellosis is. It’s an automatic death sentence for dogs.


Agreed. There was a really horrible strain of parvo that swept through MI last year too that started with a group of imports. We are playing Russian Roulette with our own dog's health by bringing in these imports.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Hildae said:


> Agreed. There was a really horrible strain of parvo that swept through MI last year too that started with a group of imports. We are playing Russian Roulette with our own dog's health by bringing in these imports.


It started right before the National and a lot of people didn’t go because of it. The National ended up fine, but I don’t blame people for not taking the risk.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ArkansasGold said:


> It started right before the National and a lot of people didn’t go because of it. The National ended up fine, but I don’t blame people for not taking the risk.


I don't blame those who didn't go, I wouldn't have taken the risk either, personally. They weren't even sure at first if it was parvo, so I was waiting to hear if we had something new imported or what.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Hildae said:


> I don't blame those who didn't go, I wouldn't have taken the risk either, personally. They weren't even sure at first if it was parvo, so I was waiting to hear if we had something new imported or what.


If memory serves, they figured out it was parvo primarily in unvaccinated dogs a few days, maybe a week before the National started.


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## SharonaZamboni (3 mo ago)

Ontariodogsitter said:


> I volunteered with Humane society in the sixties and seventies, fostered dogs in the eighties and nineties and took on dogs that have been turned in, that nobody wanted.
> At that time it seemed to be mostly about finding homes for dogs that needed some TLC.
> Then change slowly crept in, and the cost for the "rescues" started rising beyond the vet care the dogs got before going to their permanent home.
> I admit it took me a while to realize that some groups were using "rescue" as a money making proposition and that ended my contribution.
> ...


I’ve gotten very suspicious of most “rescue” places and “adoptions”. It all just seems like so much bs now. There’s really only bully mixes in my local shelters, and I definitely don’t want to take that sort of chance.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ArkansasGold said:


> If memory serves, they figured out it was parvo primarily in unvaccinated dogs a few days, maybe a week before the National started.


That sounds about right


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> If memory serves, they figured out it was parvo primarily in unvaccinated dogs a few days, maybe a week before the National started.


I don't think that was related to rescues at all.... maybe I'm misremembering, but that was completely vet care related. Don't forget, Michigan was a state where the vets were shut down and then severely backed up when they opened up again.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> I don't think that was related to rescues at all.... maybe I'm misremembering, but that was completely vet care related. Don't forget, Michigan was a state where the vets were shut down and then severely backed up when they opened up again.


I don’t remember it being related to rescue, but that could be where it started for all I know. 🤷🏼‍♀️


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> I don't think that was related to rescues at all.... maybe I'm misremembering, but that was completely vet care related. Don't forget, Michigan was a state where the vets were shut down and then severely backed up when they opened up again.


I believe I recall reading that when it started, it was a found in puppies from a rescue mother. I didn't follow it all that closely, so maybe they decided in the end that wasn't the source. Either way, I believe that importing these rescues is a dangerous proposition for our own pets. We have enough of our own strays, and our own domestic health issues without risking bringing in more.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> I believe I recall reading that when it started, it was a found in puppies from a rescue mother. I didn't follow it all that closely, so maybe they decided in the end that wasn't the source.


No it was a separate issue. These were people's pets who had not completed the shots needed, or they got shots from TSC, etc. Many vets were really backed up and or raised prices big time so people were cutting corners. 

I'm a womb to tomb Michigander (all other states are crap LOL), but that said I know how people are in many places in this state and it's not all complimentary. Especially horse competing community - lot of people never take their dogs to vets as it is. 🥴


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## Rain438 (11 mo ago)

I thought there was currently a ban on importing dogs to the US from China. Was that lifted?


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## Sankari (12 mo ago)

There's so many things I'm learning here that I didn't know of. Can dogs be not vaccinated against parvo? 😯 Why this choice by owners?

@Hildae - that elderly lady from the UK must be really going through a nightmare. That's so sad 🙁


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sankari said:


> There's so many things I'm learning here that I didn't know of. Can dogs be not vaccinated against parvo? 😯 Why this choice by owners?


The only legally required vaccine is for rabies.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Sankari said:


> There's so many things I'm learning here that I didn't know of. Can dogs be not vaccinated against parvo? 😯 Why this choice by owners?
> 
> @Hildae - that elderly lady from the UK must be really going through a nightmare. That's so sad 🙁


They certainly can be vaccinated. Sadly many owners are either fooled by pseudoscience that says vaccines are bad, or they're too cheap (or just irresponsible) and don't get their dogs vaccinated. Some dogs live, some pay the price for their owner's bad decisions.


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## Sankari (12 mo ago)

Megora said:


> The only legally required vaccine is for rabies.


This is also the only mandatory vaccine for all of Europe. Although some countries within the EU have parvo, distemper etc as mandatory vaccines to enter/live in their country.. I'm not aware for each specific country what their list is but because of my constant travelling with Ramses, he had a few shots. Ramses also had to retake the rabies vaccine to enter the US because his titer values were not good enough. The import personnel didn't ask for anything but the rabies vaccine and titer values. But there's a copy of all of his vaccines in his pet passport and they were quite surprised we did a few additional ones - at that time I thought nothing of it. We are coming from EU with its own regulations so I just put it down to that. 



Hildae said:


> They certainly can be vaccinated. Sadly many owners are either fooled by pseudoscience that says vaccines are bad, or they're too cheap (or just irresponsible) and don't get their dogs vaccinated. Some dogs live, some pay the price for their owner's bad decisions.


Thats really sad because parvo is such an awful disease. 🙁


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

There are checks and balances since if you want to bring your dog to dog classes or daycare or some dog parks, you need your dog to be fully vaccination + some may require extra vaccines as well. All things that might have been cut back the last 2-3 years, or people simply never do them anyway.

Likewise, my thoughts here is I would not be able to get my dogs treated at the ER if not fully vaccinated + with a negative heartworm test every year. Titers are done at my vet if you choose to cut back on vaccines you do - but you have to do the titers for your specific dog.


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## Sankari (12 mo ago)

Megora said:


> There are checks and balances since if you want to bring your dog to dog classes or daycare or some dog parks, you need your dog to be fully vaccination + some may require extra vaccines as well. All things that might have been cut back the last 2-3 years, or people simply never do them anyway.
> 
> Likewise, my thoughts here is I would not be able to get my dogs treated at the ER if not fully vaccinated + with a negative heartworm test every year. Titers are done at my vet if you choose to cut back on vaccines you do - but you have to do the titers for your specific dog.



Yes I think your point here illustrates (dog classes, daycare etc) why I was so surprised people didn't vaccinate their dogs against these more deadly diseases..

I didn't know that about the ER regarding the vaccines and heartworm test. That's something I just learnt. I am not sure how ER vets work back in Europe (I didn't think about it) or how pet people are behaving back in Europe. Those that I know more intimately, do all of the core vaccines, deworm their dogs etc.. I have yet to meet someone that didn't vaccinate against diseases like parvo but it's very possible there are some who don't 🤦🏽‍♀️


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

Megora said:


> Likewise, my thoughts here is I would not be able to get my dogs treated at the ER if not fully vaccinated + with a negative heartworm test every year.


Never heard that one before…


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oceanside said:


> Never heard that one before…


I assume it's not just my vet....

I guess tying back to the OP here, negative brucellosis are now required prior to reproductive services at vets.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Tagrenine said:


> Im from Florida and I would say 80% of the dogs for adoption down there are bully breed mixes


I'd say 90-95% in Ohio. Including the "lab mixes" that obviously have pit in them Then there's the misidentified breeds, like the rottie mix that's being called a rough collie/GSD mix. And the real kicker of the day is the doodle being passed off as a Spinone Italiano/ Irish Wolfhound mix. Although, I am impressed that they know those breeds exist!


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

DevWind said:


> I'd say 90-95% in Ohio. Including the "lab mixes" that obviously have pit in them Then there's the misidentified breeds, like the rottie mix that's being called a rough collie/GSD mix. And the real kicker of the day is the doodle being passed off as a Spinone Italiano/ Irish Wolfhound mix. Although, I am impressed that they know those breeds exist!


I am trying to find my screenshots of a post once where a dog that looked like a bully mix was being passed off as an Azawakh!

Edit: found them! 










































For those that want to know what an Azawakh looks like:


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Tagrenine said:


> I am trying to find my screenshots of a post once where a dog that looked like a bully mix was being passed off as an Azawakh!
> 
> Edit: found them!
> 
> ...


This forum needs an eyeball roll reaction! They will literally come up with anything to not call a bully breed mix a bully breed mix!


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Sankari said:


> Yes I think your point here illustrates (dog classes, daycare etc) why I was so surprised people didn't vaccinate their dogs against these more deadly diseases..


Honestly, IME the people who don't vaccinate aren't usually the type that use daycare or take classes. They're usually the type who throw the dog in the yard on a rope most of the day and feed whatever is cheapest. 




DevWind said:


> I'd say 90-95% in Ohio. Including the "lab mixes" that obviously have pit in them Then there's the misidentified breeds, like the rottie mix that's being called a rough collie/GSD mix. And the real kicker of the day is the doodle being passed off as a Spinone Italiano/ Irish Wolfhound mix. Although, I am impressed that they know those breeds exist!


Here too. I don't know who they think they are fooling with their "lab mix" label, but anyone with eyes can see a bully mix.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Tagrenine said:


> I am trying to find my screenshots of a post once where a dog that looked like a bully mix was being passed off as an Azawakh!
> 
> Edit: found them!


Well....they are the same color! LOL She's cute though. 

Here's the "rough collie/GSD" mix. She's a cute dog but I don't know where they came up with the breeds. 









I can't save the other dog's photo.


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## Ontariodogsitter (Feb 23, 2020)

Who knew it takes 18 people to decide what breed a dog is??
Well meaning volunteers can do lots of damage, especially if they are their own cheering group.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Here are some “golden retriever” mixes from adopt a pet! There were 14 total pages of goldens. I just picked out the ones that look like bully mixes. And this is just from the first 4 pages.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

There's no way to look at Ragnor and stay sad! LOL Love that face! Obviously not goldens though!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Goldens&Friesians said:


> This forum needs an eyeball roll reaction! They will literally come up with anything to not call a bully breed mix a bully breed mix!


The reason why they do it is because otherwise it would be illegal to adopt these dogs in most counties in different states. BSL does not stop the flow of pit bulls into various cities and counties... it just forces rescues, etc.. to be deceptive in advertising.


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## Ontariodogsitter (Feb 23, 2020)

DevWind said:


> Well....they are the same color! LOL She's cute though.
> 
> Here's the "rough collie/GSD" mix. She's a cute dog but I don't know where they came up with the breeds.
> View attachment 899173
> ...


I see a Rotti in there and sadly enough I must admit I would take her....


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

Hello Everyone!!!

I’ll write more in detail but I do not have the time at the moment because I have rescue dogs here in Turkey which are waiting to fly to US.Most of them will fly to Boston ( Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue). I have to feed them , wash them, groom them, kiss them , talk with them and run after them so that they do not eat, chew anything hazardous .I have to make sure that the ones in the dog hotels or fosters are safe.. My VIP clients deserve much more but this is all I can do at the moment. My life revolves around them. I love them. I have a pact with them which is that one day they will make it to US ( once CDC ban is over) and that one day they will forget what they have had to go through in their short lives. We quarrel , we laugh at eachother, we sing , cry,shout , dance and try to remind each other that " La vita e bella" . Am I complaining ? Yes, because this has been a long period due to CDC ban, I am overly stressed due to their age ( mostly seniors) and each vaccinations / preventative they receive is shortening their life span and we are stealing from their lives. I am quite frustrated and walk on egg shells. Each day they stay in Turkey, lessens the years, months or days that they will spend with their family. .I read somewhere above that people sell dogs to US. One shall be very careful before making assumptions and generalize.
In reality, I am the one who owes to these dogs. Without them , emotionally and physically , I would not be able even to get out of bed for many days. They remind me that I am still alive and have to remain a human fighting billions of stupid negativity. A free therapy. What else can I ask more???

Sure there are always some rotten eggs but it is not fair to read general remarks here that rescues & volunteers profit from these dogs and so was not fair from CDC to release a general ban on ALL American rescues . After two years , CDC finally published new rules & regulations for international rescue dogs. They should have done it much BEFORE . Guess what ?? YGRR and me personally had been already following those requirements since years. Why?? Single answer I may give here is;
SINCERE LOVE OF ANIMALS AND A SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY TOWARDS ALL LOCAL ANIMALS & PUBLIC HEALTH
Predeparture: If you rescue a dog, you are not responsible only of their health. I also have my personal dogs . I would not endanger the health of my dogs by mingling them with rescue dogs which have not gone through multiple health checks and got fully vaccinated ( vector born diseases, brucellosis or other viral ones such as rabies, distemper, parvo, kennel cough ....)
Postarrival: YGRR already has its own quarantine area on the Hudson venue. Each dog enters its kennel for 2 weeks RETESTED and screened by certified vets .The new guidelines that CDC released were already being followed by YGRR and some other reputable American rescues since years.
@OscarsDad had 2 dogs from Turkey. Unfortunately, Sani crossed the rainbow bridge. I never met Sani personally in Turkey but once she made it to US, she went though a health checkup during quarantine period and was diagnosed with cancer ( mammary tumors), was deaf suffering from laryngeal paralysis and severe arthritis. But , she did not have any contagious disease such as Distemper, Parvo, Kennelcough, Lyme, Brucellosis including less severe ones such as Ehrlichia, Anaplasma ... They are tested multiple times before and after arriving to US..
A responsible volunteer or rescue does not only worry for his/her/its rescue dogs but also for the other animals ( local and national) not necessarily mentioning the general public health.
On the very same dog park, one day will walk & play a YGRR member's personal dog and on the very same street or area live their beloved family , friends and neighbours.
Some common sense is always useful .
For Turkey and China dogs, I have lots but lots to say & write. Quite fed up of rereading the article “ Once upon a time statue symbol Golden Retrievers of Turkey”. This is much deeper than that and it is both a social & religious issue. I only wish that you will not see what I have seen because you cannot unsee what you have seen. However, this does not mean that I disregard the lives of American dogs which is also another topic to be discussed.
To be continued....... when I have the time and when our social media content manager Maya authorizes me . Her insta page is: @mayathegoldenbee
She is a blind Ehrlichia survivor. Unfortunately, due to multiple wrong diagnosis she got blind and was also hit by a car wandering on Izmir streets. Life disappointed her in multiple ways and so we are trying our best to multiply her happiness in order to compensate the past till she will be an American girl.

Hugs & lots of barks


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Peri29 said:


> Hello Everyone!!!
> 
> I’ll write more in detail but I do not have the time at the moment because I have rescue dogs here in Turkey which are waiting to fly to US.Most of them will fly to Boston ( Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue). I have to feed them , wash them, groom them, kiss them , talk with them and run after them so that they do not eat, chew anything hazardous .I have to make sure that the ones in the dog hotels or fosters are safe.. My VIP clients deserve much more but this is all I can do at the moment. My life revolves around them. I love them. I have a pact with them which is that one day they will make it to US ( once CDC ban is over) and that one day they will forget what they have had to go through in their short lives. We quarrel , we laugh at eachother, we sing , cry,shout , dance and try to remind each other that " La vita e bella" . Am I complaining ? Yes, because this has been a long period due to CDC ban, I am overly stressed due to their age ( mostly seniors) and each vaccinations / preventative they receive is shortening their life span and we are stealing from their lives. I am quite frustrated and walk on egg shells. Each day they stay in Turkey, lessens the years, months or days that they will spend with their family. .I read somewhere above that people sell dogs to US. One shall be very careful before making assumptions and generalize.
> In reality, I am the one who owes to these dogs. Without them , emotionally and physically , I would not be able even to get out of bed for many days. They remind me that I am still alive and have to remain a human fighting billions of stupid negativity. A free therapy. What else can I ask more???
> ...


I really appreciate your insight on this topic, as Turkey is one of those that I’ve always questioned and only had whatever vague descriptions reporters and such gave us. I’ve seen the hostels and street dogs and consecrated efforts for veterinarians to go to Turkey and do spay/neuter.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Peri29 said:


> Hello Everyone!!!
> 
> I’ll write more in detail but I do not have the time at the moment because I have rescue dogs here in Turkey which are waiting to fly to US.Most of them will fly to Boston ( Yankee Golden Retriever Rescue). I have to feed them , wash them, groom them, kiss them , talk with them and run after them so that they do not eat, chew anything hazardous .I have to make sure that the ones in the dog hotels or fosters are safe.. My VIP clients deserve much more but this is all I can do at the moment. My life revolves around them. I love them. I have a pact with them which is that one day they will make it to US ( once CDC ban is over) and that one day they will forget what they have had to go through in their short lives. We quarrel , we laugh at eachother, we sing , cry,shout , dance and try to remind each other that " La vita e bella" . Am I complaining ? Yes, because this has been a long period due to CDC ban, I am overly stressed due to their age ( mostly seniors) and each vaccinations / preventative they receive is shortening their life span and we are stealing from their lives. I am quite frustrated and walk on egg shells. Each day they stay in Turkey, lessens the years, months or days that they will spend with their family. .I read somewhere above that people sell dogs to US. One shall be very careful before making assumptions and generalize.
> In reality, I am the one who owes to these dogs. Without them , emotionally and physically , I would not be able even to get out of bed for many days. They remind me that I am still alive and have to remain a human fighting billions of stupid negativity. A free therapy. What else can I ask more???
> ...


Regardless, though I feel bad for any dog, anywhere that isn't in a loving home, the US doesn't need to import a single dog from anywhere. We are loaded with our own homeless dogs and cats that need sorted without adding to it.


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## sweiss1590 (Aug 14, 2021)

Hildae said:


> Regardless, though I feel bad for any dog, anywhere that isn't in a loving home, the US doesn't need to import a single dog from anywhere. We are loaded with our own homeless dogs and cats that need sorted without adding to it.


Am I wrong, then, for wanting to rescue a golden retriever, specifically - if the domestic supply doesn't meet the demand?

I'm not hoping for there to be more homeless or abused goldens, but it seems every time a golden appears at a shelter, it's snatched up before I can even blink. Good for the dog, too bad for me.

It's sad that GRs are being imported from abroad to meet the demand. I've adopted three rescue GRs before, and that's what I want to do next time.

I feel like the doors are closing on me. Finding an ethical GR breeder is a challenge, if I wanted to go that way; the ethics of Turkey or China rescue are held to challenge too; and domestic GR rescue is a don't-blink situation.


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

Hildae said:


> Regardless, though I feel bad for any dog, anywhere that isn't in a loving home, the US doesn't need to import a single dog from anywhere. We are loaded with our own homeless dogs and cats that need sorted without adding to it.


I frankly understand you and will touch on this subject separately. Please do not think that we are not concerned for American Dogs. The well being & life of American Dogs are important for me as much as Turkish, European or Chinese Dogs. This is again a very fragile subject . I rather give my opinion in a more appropriate way since this subject deserves again a sociopolitical attention . At this very moment, a gypsy is singing to go out to potty and shall temporarilyp leave the topic. ( an English Setter who will join ABESR ;another very professional rescue that I trust in US .They are very careful when it comes to the health of rescue dogs both from Europe and Turkey. Both national and international rescue dogs from abroad directly enter veterinary clinic for quarantine where they once more receive health checkups before being placed in foster cares. They also rescue local English Setters ( in US) .


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## Peri29 (Aug 5, 2017)

Tagrenine said:


> I really appreciate your insight on this topic, as Turkey is one of those that I’ve always questioned and only had whatever vague descriptions reporters and such gave us. I’ve seen the hostels and street dogs and consecrated efforts for veterinarians to go to Turkey and do spay/neuter.


I will be writing on this subject ( China & Turkey)in a way that it deserves. We have already discussed the topic on the forum on various threads but we shall maybe pin it somewhere with a new post I will make. Turkish volunteers are not fighting against ignorant pet owners but also municipal shelters whose main job shall be neutering / spaying. Instad they.......


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Hildae said:


> We are loaded with our own homeless dogs and cats that need sorted without adding to it.


While I understand this is the case in many areas of the country, there are others (like New England) where spay/neuter is common and most of our shelters and rescue groups (even those based in large urban areas) are largely empty except for dogs brought up from southern rescues. And most of the dogs coming up from the south are either pit mixes or hounds - not particularly popular breeds here and not a good substitute for someone who might have their heart set on, say, a Golden Retriever, or a retriever mix, or a small dog (especially a small dog that isn't a chihuahua, which seems to be all that's available from the rescues that specialize in the smaller dogs). Because most of the dogs are coming up from the South, many rescues expect you to commit to a dog without even having met it! Here in the northeast, dogs that aren't pit mixes (and who don't have the "no other pets, no kids, has separation anxiety" type issues) fly out of our shelters and rescues before most people even know they are there. 

When I lost my last golden to cancer I did some soul searching about whether I was ready to do another Golden and spent 6 months monitoring local shelters and rescue groups for a dog that might be what I wanted and needed (youngish, good with my other dogs and my cats, some potential to do a dog sport - and I wanted to be able to meet the dog before making a commitment!). In that time, I only found 3 dogs that might fit the bill: two already had a multi-person waitlist by the time I applied, and the one that we were first on the list for ended up not being a good fit.

Years ago, I was an active member of YGRR and did a lot of home visits for them. Every home I checked was awesome, BUT YGRR had so few dogs that the wait (especially for young family dogs without significant health or behavioral issues) could be _years_, even for a great potential home. In the last few years Yankee started accepting Golden mixes and bringing dogs in from places like Turkey because the demand was so high and the supply was so low. I know this isn't the case everywhere, but I'm in full sympathy with rescues like YGRR bringing in dogs from overseas, especially if they are working with groups that can be fairly confidently confirmed to be actually rescuing and not breeding for the lack of Goldens in the US.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

pawsnpaca said:


> While I understand this is the case in many areas of the country, there are others (like New England) where spay/neuter is common and most of our shelters and rescue groups (even those based in large urban areas) are largely empty except for dogs brought up from southern rescues. And most of the dogs coming up from the south are either pit mixes or hounds - not particularly popular breeds here and not a good substitute for someone who might have their heart set on, say, a Golden Retriever, or a retriever mix, or a small dog (especially a small dog that isn't a chihuahua, which seems to be all that's available from the rescues that specialize in the smaller dogs). Because most of the dogs are coming up from the South, many rescues expect you to commit to a dog without even having met it! Here in the northeast, dogs that aren't pit mixes (and who don't have the "no other pets, no kids, has separation anxiety" type issues) fly out of our shelters and rescues before most people even know they are there.
> 
> When I lost my last golden to cancer I did some soul searching about whether I was ready to do another Golden and spent 6 months monitoring local shelters and rescue groups for a dog that might be what I wanted and needed (youngish, good with my other dogs and my cats, some potential to do a dog sport - and I wanted to be able to meet the dog before making a commitment!). In that time, I only found 3 dogs that might fit the bill: two already had a multi-person waitlist by the time I applied, and the one that we were first on the list for ended up not being a good fit.
> 
> Years ago, I was an active member of YGRR and did a lot of home visits for them. Every home I checked was awesome, BUT YGRR had so few dogs that the wait (especially for young family dogs without significant health or behavioral issues) could be _years_, even for a great potential home. In the last few years Yankee started accepting Golden mixes and bringing dogs in from places like Turkey because the demand was so high and the supply was so low. I know this isn't the case everywhere, but I'm in full sympathy with rescues like YGRR bringing in dogs from overseas, especially if they are working with groups that can be fairly confidently confirmed to be actually rescuing and not breeding for the lack of Goldens in the US.


Well written


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

pawsnpaca said:


> While I understand this is the case in many areas of the country, there are others (like New England) where spay/neuter is common and most of our shelters and rescue groups (even those based in large urban areas) are largely empty except for dogs brought up from southern rescues. And most of the dogs coming up from the south are either pit mixes or hounds - not particularly popular breeds here and not a good substitute for someone who might have their heart set on, say, a Golden Retriever, or a retriever mix, or a small dog (especially a small dog that isn't a chihuahua, which seems to be all that's available from the rescues that specialize in the smaller dogs). Because most of the dogs are coming up from the South, many rescues expect you to commit to a dog without even having met it! Here in the northeast, dogs that aren't pit mixes (and who don't have the "no other pets, no kids, has separation anxiety" type issues) fly out of our shelters and rescues before most people even know they are there.
> 
> When I lost my last golden to cancer I did some soul searching about whether I was ready to do another Golden and spent 6 months monitoring local shelters and rescue groups for a dog that might be what I wanted and needed (youngish, good with my other dogs and my cats, some potential to do a dog sport - and I wanted to be able to meet the dog before making a commitment!). In that time, I only found 3 dogs that might fit the bill: two already had a multi-person waitlist by the time I applied, and the one that we were first on the list for ended up not being a good fit.
> 
> Years ago, I was an active member of YGRR and did a lot of home visits for them. Every home I checked was awesome, BUT YGRR had so few dogs that the wait (especially for young family dogs without significant health or behavioral issues) could be _years_, even for a great potential home. In the last few years Yankee started accepting Golden mixes and bringing dogs in from places like Turkey because the demand was so high and the supply was so low. I know this isn't the case everywhere, but I'm in full sympathy with rescues like YGRR bringing in dogs from overseas, especially if they are working with groups that can be fairly confidently confirmed to be actually rescuing and not breeding for the lack of Goldens in the US.


While I understand what you're saying, and I am fully aware that the south supplies a lot of rescue dogs (of generally less desirable breed combos) there is still, _in my opinion_, no circumstance currently under which we should be importing dogs to "rescue." If a person very much wants to rescue, then they should work with what is available here in the US. If they want a specific breed and can't find one to rescue, then they should do what is probably the best thing anyway, which is get on a list with a reputable breeder and purchase a quality, well bred dog of the breed they desire. Again, I feel very much for dogs in other countries that need help too, but we need to mop up our own mess before we get involved in anyone else's. That means we need to do the hard things, like euthanizing dogs that are not likely to find homes for whatever reason (instead of trying to ship them north where they aren't terribly wanted either), and instead of putting money into importing foreign strays, we put the money into even more low cost or free spay/neuter clinics (especially in the south), and put money towards round up programs to capture and either alter or euthanize feral or stray/roaming populations to stop the constant flow of puppies (and kittens) into shelters or on the streets. We can also use the money to improve the situation in shelters here, maybe pay the staff a living wage, and fund better care for the US dogs waiting for homes.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Hildae said:


> While I understand what you're saying, and I am fully aware that the south supplies a lot of rescue dogs (of generally less desirable breed combos) there is still, _in my opinion_, no circumstance currently under which we should be importing dogs to "rescue." If a person very much wants to rescue, then they should work with what is available here in the US. If they want a specific breed and can't find one to rescue, then they should do what is probably the best thing anyway, which is get on a list with a reputable breeder and purchase a quality, well bred dog of the breed they desire. Again, I feel very much for dogs in other countries that need help too, but we need to mop up our own mess before we get involved in anyone else's. That means we need to do the hard things, like euthanizing dogs that are not likely to find homes for whatever reason (instead of trying to ship them north where they aren't terribly wanted either), and instead of putting money into importing foreign strays, we put the money into even more low cost or free spay/neuter clinics (especially in the south), and put money towards round up programs to capture and either alter or euthanize feral or stray/roaming populations to stop the constant flow of puppies (and kittens) into shelters or on the streets. We can also use the money to improve the situation in shelters here, maybe pay the staff a living wage, and fund better care for the US dogs waiting for homes.


Some of this is already done, we have a million low cost or free spay neuter clinics in the south. Literally TONS. And we also do a lot of euthanasias for dogs that don’t get adopted. When I lived in central Florida, I lived right next to a high volume discount spay neuter clinic that happened to be right next to animal control. The local SPCA pulled dogs from AC and whatever didn’t get pulled was euthanized.

But I do think that most people that the ever increasing price tag of well-bred Goldens is a huge deterrent. So that leaves people with rescue or to support less than reputable breeders. It’s like the lesser of two evils.
I have no qualms with rescue and as long as it’s all done legally and with the proper channels, it’s only a win win situation. People get a dog they want and a dog gets a home. I don’t agree with supporting foreign breeders under the guise of saving dogs from the meat trade, but I do believe their is a place for rescue and families that want to rescue for whatever their reasons may be.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Tagrenine said:


> Some of this is already done, we have a million low cost or free spay neuter clinics in the south.


Yes, there are lots but given the situation we either need more or we need more funds to make them free instead of low cost. 



Tagrenine said:


> But I do think that most people that the ever increasing price tag of well-bred Goldens is a huge deterrent. So that leaves people with rescue or to support less than reputable breeders.


No argument from me that the price tag on Goldens is a potential problem, and bybs are a huge issue as well. But none of that changes the fact that I believe we need to fix our own issues before we import someone else's. 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just sharing my opinion.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Hildae said:


> Yes, there are lots but given the situation we either need more or we need more funds to make them free instead of low cost.
> 
> 
> No argument from me that the price tag on Goldens is a potential problem, and bybs are a huge issue as well. But none of that changes the fact that I believe we need to fix our own issues before we import someone else's.
> ...


It’s fair, it just that we have the resources down here for spay neuter, just not the will. A lot of people don’t want to neuter their bully mixes. Free roaming is just a part of nature and tons of people have whatever mix puppies that go onto friends. One of my friends found out her dog was pregnant without realizing she was in heat but didn’t care to spay her. 12 bully puppies born outside, all found homes and she kept two boys. Both still intact. She has the funds, as a nurse, to fix them, just never grew up with fixed animals.

I think it’ll be changing a culture if we want to see real changes. The north has the opposite problem as us lol


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Tagrenine said:


> It’s fair, it just that we have the resources down here for spay neuter, just not the will. A lot of people don’t want to neuter their bully mixes.
> 
> I think it’ll be changing a culture if we want to see real changes.


Agreed


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

Tagrenine said:


> I think it’ll be changing a culture if we want to see real changes.


As in, convincing bully mix owners that their dogs shouldn’t have litters just because they’re “the sweetest dog ever”? Talk about an uphill battle…


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