# Arrgghh - sometimes I just want to cry... *rant*



## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

A few days ago, I came across some dogs in the OFA database whose kennel name I recognized as being an "English Cream" breeder. It was 2 females and a male. The females share the same sire. All 3 of these dogs were showing Moderate ratings, 2 of them were Moderate Unilateral.

Yesterday, I looked again and these dogs have disappeared from the database. I KNOW that they were there but now there's no record of them. I emailed OFA, not to ask about the ratings but to ask why the records were removed. Since I didn't ask permission to post the reply, I will just say that it was verified that they were removed.

I just took a look at the website of the breeder and although they have removed the reference about breeding the male to one of the two females, it still has the male listed as one of their studs. The two females are listed as going to be having their first litters later this year. In addition, they have a litter sired by the male that was born 4 days before he received his rating. The mother of that litter has no clearances listed in OFA or CERF and is listed on the website as being the sister of one of the 2 bitches listed above. 

I'm angry because it's fairly obvious that these people had no clue what they were breeding. They just took the "English Creams are healthier" BS and ran with it. Now they have 3 dysplastic dogs. The other thing that makes me angry is that because the results aren't being publicized, if these people decide to continue breeding these dogs, there is no proof available to show the public what is going on.

Sometimes I wish I didn't love this breed so much because then I probably wouldn't get so angry when I come across "breeders" like this.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

it is sooo incredibly frustrating when you can see the deception and can only pray the people that plan to purchase puppies from such people - find their way to the information that will stop them from putting money in the 'breeders' pockets.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ragtym said:


> A few days ago, I came across some dogs in the OFA database whose kennel name I recognized as being an "English Cream" breeder. It was 2 females and a male. The females share the same sire. All 3 of these dogs were showing Moderate ratings, 2 of them were Moderate Unilateral.
> 
> Yesterday, I looked again and these dogs have disappeared from the database. I KNOW that they were there but now there's no record of them. I emailed OFA, not to ask about the ratings but to ask why the records were removed. Since I didn't ask permission to post the reply, I will just say that it was verified that they were removed.
> 
> ...


 Post the name of the breeder, and a recommendation for anyone considering purchasing a puppy from them to INSIST upon seeing OFA documentations. It was on a public site, you saw it, you would be telling the truth. It would then be up to buyers to do due diligence, and the "breeder" to *prove* that the dogs are cleared if they claim so.

Believe me - I know how you feel. I am several tens of thousands of dollars poorer because of caring.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

The only thing we can do is to keep pounding away that people need to see clearances BEFORE they go to look at puppies. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people who do not realize what clearances are or why they are important. And what is so frustrating in this case is that puppies from these dogs have a much higher chance not only of being dysplastic but of being moderately or severely dysplastic, which means pain and suffering for them and their owners.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Taking a screen print of documentation you see online is a good way to keep your own records. I've also copied source code...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Taking a screen print of documentation you see online is a good way to keep your own records. I've also copied source code...


And that is why I have literally _thousands _of documents as related to the case I was involved in. 

The Wayback Machine is also a good way to capture web pages.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> And that is why I have literally _thousands _of documents as related to the case I was involved in.
> 
> The Wayback Machine is also a good way to capture web pages.


I forgot about the other sources for capturing old pages. Thank you for the reminder. 

I've also kept most of my email messages when I was involved with an organization in case anyone comes a knockin' on my door...Live and Learn.


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## Laura Way (May 25, 2009)

I had a woman call me last week and I spent about an hour on the phone with her. She was from CT and wanted an "English Cream." LOL She was putting a deposit on a puppy without the clearences and all, having him shipped from either Indiana or Illionis.(Forgot where she said this breeder was from and she also gave me the website) She was refered to me by a couple different people that have dogs of mine. The price she was willing to pay and was paying is $3300 including shipping fees! I was appauld. She was in such a big hurry to replace their family golden that just passed. I tried educating her about clearences, slowing down, waiting and not rushing into the first pup that came along, type, relationship with breeder for the life of the pup, ect. But, she just didn't really want to hear anything. She wanted a "Cream" something of different color of beloved golden. She only wanted to hear what she choose to hear. It is really fustrating no matter how good your intentions are when folks just rush out to buy the next best thing. 

My point is some people are willing to walk into deception even when they are being educated. I am glad to see you are really reshearching the breed.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

*The name of the breeder*

The breeder is White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia. 

The dogs are:

Crystal Belle of White Oaks - sired by Kalocsahazi Itt-ott out of Almost Heaven Crystal Nell. She is rated Moderate.
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295956

Sugar Baby of White Oaks - sired by Kalocsahazi Itt-ott out of Mercy of White Knights. She is rated Moderate Uni (there was no indication of which side was affected).
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295955

Sampson of White Oaks - sired by Platinum Ice Of The Morning Valley out of Divinity Snow From Mariannehouse. He is rated Moderate Unilateral Left. This is the sire of one of their litters listed on their site right now
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295951

The website once declared that the dogs were AKC, OFA (http://web.archive.org/web/20080704173505/http://www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com/) - now it just says AKC. They've also removed the links that they had to the dogs' K9 Data pages. I did have the ratings listed on k9data but there is a rule that says that if a listing isn't verifiable with OFA, it can't be added. I'm going to email the admin with what I know and see if they will make an exception in this case though.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

This is an incredibly common issue, where disreputable breeders claim certifications they don't have or claim "health tested," "genetically tested" or other misleading qualifications that can't actually be proven or disproven. It's unlikely that breeding dysplastic dogs will cut too much into their bottom line.

My least favorite line: "To reserve a puppy a non-refundable deposit of $500 (British Cream) and $200 on (American Goldens) must be made in advance." It's a telling illustration of the caché that "British Cream" has.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Red Flags....There site does not mention one full registered AKC name, clearance. I needs some help understanding what they call English Cream. They said the only difference is color and size to the American golden. I have goldens in my line that are very light does that mean they are english? I wouldn't charge a different price for color. If it is a true breed from England how are they registered here with the AKC? I think it is terrible we can not educated people enough about clearances, color, health, being taken advantage of......


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

ragtym said:


> The breeder is White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia.
> 
> The dogs are:
> 
> ...


Not only are these people breeding dogs with no idea of what their scores on the clearances would be, but it looks like they also got some of their breeding dogs from a puppy broker. The kennel "Kalocsahazi" is a breeder in Hungary that supplies puppies to brokers like europuppy.com (http://www.europuppy.com/dog_for_sale/golden_retriever_11780.html), and probably others. The reason I know this is because a couple of years ago I got a call from a woman who was looking for a pup and had put a deposit down on one from this broker. She wanted to know what I thought about it, and I told her honestly that it was a horrible idea, that she was paying way too much for a puppy and pedigree she knows nothing about, not to mention the fact that she had no idea how the puppies had been raised, socialized, etc. She listened to all my advice and ended up ignoring it because she wanted a "British Cream", and didn't want to spend the time waiting and researching reputable breeders, and she definitely couldn't wait the 6 months or so until I would have puppies available. Like others have said in this thread, it is infuriating to see irresponsible "breeders" who are willing to deceive the public, but it is also frustrating to see buyers who are completely unwilling to learn and who rush into buying a puppy the wrong way.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Ooh, did anyone else notice that the puppy at the link that Halia posted is "reserved for Kevin". There's also a male reserved for Kevin as well. Hmm...I wonder if White Duck is bringing in some new bloodlines?


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Just an update - White Oak Golden Retrievers is now listing the 2 dysplastic bitches, Crystal Belle of White Oaks & Sugar Baby of White Oaks as having OFA certifications: http://www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com/britishcream.htm


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Well, it does just say (AKC, OFA) and doesn't say *what* the OFA rating was :uhoh: Not an out and out lie :doh:


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> Well, it does just say (AKC, OFA) and doesn't say *what* the OFA rating was :uhoh: Not an out and out lie :doh:


True...


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I would just like to add that there are irresponsible, disreputable scumbag breeders in American type dogs AND "English"/European type dogs.... 

scumbag breeders are scumbag breeders and they exist all over the place. 

s


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

ragtym said:


> Ooh, did anyone else notice that the puppy at the link that Halia posted is "reserved for Kevin". There's also a male reserved for Kevin as well. Hmm...I wonder if White Duck is bringing in some new bloodlines?


 
Oh, I seriously hope NOT......I can't stand the thought of WD bringing in any new anything.......................................:yuck:


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## truewhitejem (Apr 13, 2010)

*Educate yourself, stick to the facts, Breeder want to be's !!Check Yourself!!*

**RAGTYM** given your postings it is obvious you are a breeder want to be that is highly uneducated on any dog pedigree much less the business of dog breeding. I suggest you publicly admit your projecting a breeder "agenda" that is foolishly misrepresenting not only yourself, the dogs but more importantly People that depend on the integrity of the Owner who is able to stand behind the reputation and brand. And I do mean White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia. As an owner of this brand, valued customer and educated person on the subject you have no place to discredit this fabulous company. White Oak Golden Retrievers is the best at what they do hands down...just ask the their customers...oh wait your not one yet!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

truewhitejem said:


> **RAGTYM** given your postings it is obvious you are a breeder want to be that is highly uneducated on any dog pedigree much less the business of dog breeding. I suggest you publicly admit your projecting a breeder "agenda" that is foolishly misrepresenting not only yourself, the dogs but more importantly People that depend on the integrity of the Owner who is able to stand behind the reputation and brand. And I do mean White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia. As an owner of this brand, valued customer and educated person on the subject you have no place to discredit this fabulous company. White Oak Golden Retrievers is the best at what they do hands down...just ask the their customers...oh wait your not one yet!


Regardless of who Ragtym is and/or their future plans... it does NOT change the fact that you, White Oak Golden Retrievers, breeds dysplastic dogs despite their poor, non-passing rating on OFA. It is you that needs to explain your agenda because as far as we can see, White Oak Golden Retrievers doesn't abide by the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics. Shame on you for ruining this breed by intentionally breeding dogs with genetic disposition to hip problems.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

truewhitejem said:


> **RAGTYM** given your postings it is obvious you are a breeder want to be that is highly uneducated on any dog pedigree much less the business of dog breeding. I suggest you publicly admit your projecting a breeder "agenda" that is foolishly misrepresenting not only yourself, the dogs but more importantly People that depend on the integrity of the Owner who is able to stand behind the reputation and brand. And I do mean White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia. As an owner of this brand, valued customer and educated person on the subject you have no place to discredit this fabulous company. White Oak Golden Retrievers is the best at what they do hands down...just ask the their customers...oh wait your not one yet!


 
Wow. Being the best at knowingly breeding dysplastic dogs - a "brand" of dogs, no less, surely gives me something new to strive for.

I can't wait to be able to say "I breed the BEST brand of dysplastic, crippled, out of standard white dogs e_ver._


_By the way, this "company's" revisionist history of the importation and exhibition of English Golden Retrievers is laughable for those who have been dedicated to, and knowledgeable about the breed for far far longer than they have been producing their "brand",_


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## truewhitejem (Apr 13, 2010)

NO Carolina...shame on you. Exactly...as far as you can see which is from your computer keyboard to the screen ,entrusting a database record at the OFA which you know is not an absolute. Are you the database steward and authority to verify their record on all dogs registered with them? How can you say what you are misrepresenting unless you actually are? Any are you saying the OFA is the one any only be all valid source for maintaining and monitoirng these conditions? Maybe you can send everyone in this post those ethics regs so we can actually get a refresh...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

truewhitejem said:


> NO Carolina...shame on you. Exactly...as far as you can see which is from your computer keyboard to the screen ,entrusting a database record at the OFA which you know is not an absolute. Are you the database steward and authority to verify their record on all dogs registered with them? How can you say what you are misrepresenting unless you actually are? Any are you saying the OFA is the one any only be all valid source for maintaining and monitoirng these conditions? Maybe you can send everyone in this post those ethics regs so we can actually get a refresh...


 
Why don't you hang it up, seriously. I've completely lost all tolerance for true ignorance, and I don't even care if this is bannable, but people like you nauseate me. How you, so willing to profit off the backs of dogs with heritable diseases, with a relatively short history as a "breeder", can presume to know so much more than true experts in the breed and in the field of genetic health issues, as well as propogating totally false claims (ie that you singlehandedly introduced English Goldens to the US show rings blah blah blah) is beyond the pale - the EXCESSIVELY pale.

I apologize to the good GRF members here for my rant, but frankly, I have had it with such BS.

Mods - go ahead and ban me if you need to for my blatant infraction of forum rules and simple good etiquette.


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## truewhitejem (Apr 13, 2010)

OHHH and they all come out. Just like I thought....Its always easy to misrepresent the facts when you don't know the facts.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Keep on taunting, pal. It only shows your true colors. Or lack thereof..


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mods, please do not ban Pointgold as I feel she speaks for the majority of Golden Retriever breeders everywhere. Though some will never learn, no matter how you relay the facts, those who do learn will only help to better serve our beloved Goldens.


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## truewhitejem (Apr 13, 2010)

Spoken like a true expert. Actually just setting the record staight...so all of us "experts" can unquestionable stand behind what we publically communicate. Much appreciated.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Why don't you hang it up, seriously. I've completely lost all tolerance for true ignorance, and I don't even care if this is bannable, but people like you nauseate me. How you, so willing to profit off the backs of dogs with heritable diseases, with a relatively short history as a "breeder", can presume to know so much more than true experts in the breed and in the field of genetic health issues, as well as propogating totally false claims (ie that you singlehandedly introduced English Goldens to the US show rings blah blah blah) is beyond the pale - the EXCESSIVELY pale.
> 
> I apologize to the good GRF members here for my rant, but frankly, I have had it with such BS.


:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

truewhitejem said:


> Spoken like a true expert. Actually just setting the record staight...so all of us "experts" can unquestionable stand behind what we publically communicate. Much appreciated.






Set what record straight? Are you saying that OFA is somehow posting incorrect records for the bitches you're breeding? Are you saying they passed their OFA certifications and that OFA is somehow listing them incorrectly?

If you're saying some of the facts in this thread are wrong, please take a moment to address exactly which are wrong and to prove some evidence about your claims.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

truewhitejem said:


> NO Carolina...shame on you. Exactly...as far as you can see which is from your computer keyboard to the screen ,entrusting a database record at the OFA which you know is not an absolute. Are you the database steward and authority to verify their record on all dogs registered with them? How can you say what you are misrepresenting unless you actually are? Any are you saying the OFA is the one any only be all valid source for maintaining and monitoirng these conditions? Maybe you can send everyone in this post those ethics regs so we can actually get a refresh...


Here are the GRCA's ethics guidelines. The truth is plain to anybody who reads this document, reads your site, and checks your dogs on offa.org.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Why don't you hang it up, seriously. I've completely lost all tolerance for true ignorance, and I don't even care if this is bannable, but people like you nauseate me. How you, so willing to profit off the backs of dogs with heritable diseases, with a relatively short history as a "breeder", can presume to know so much more than true experts in the breed and in the field of genetic health issues, as well as propogating totally false claims (ie that you singlehandedly introduced English Goldens to the US show rings blah blah blah) is beyond the pale - the EXCESSIVELY pale.
> 
> I apologize to the good GRF members here for my rant, but frankly, I have had it with such BS.
> 
> Mods - go ahead and ban me if you need to for my blatant infraction of forum rules and simple good etiquette.


I don't always agree with PG or her tone, but boy oh boy is she right here. I don't see anything that violates forum rules, and the fact that she's absolutely right about White Oak makes her post even more justified.

There's nothing wrong with calling a lie a lie.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Just for a point of reference for those actually searching for a Golden Retriever. 

The GRCA (Golden Retriever Club of America) is the Parent Breed Club for the Golden Retriever Breed in the United States. As the Parent Breed Club, the GRCA is charged with holding the Breed Standard and representing the breed as a member club of the AKC. (This means the breed standard published by the AKC, is actually written and approved by the GRCA.

The GRCA is also the keeper of other things related to the breed including history, competition and standards of ethical practice. All of those things can be easily found on the GRCA website. 

Breeders may choose to act in accordance with the standards of ethical practice or they may not, it is after all a free country.

Common sense tells most folks that dealing with people who adhere to the highest standards of ethical behavior generates the best possible outcome. Dealing with those who take liberties with ethical behavior or those who choose to continually dance in the "grey areas" ususally generates less than ideal outcomes.

If you have questions, please visit www.grca.org


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well said Swampcollie! Thank you.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Wow-how the heck did I miss this thread being brought back?

Kudos to Pointgold and Tippykayak and the rest for calling it like it is.

Well said to Swampcollie for doing some educating for those who might stumble upon this website in the future.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

truewhitejem said:


> Spoken like a true expert. Actually just setting the record staight...so all of us "experts" can unquestionable stand behind what we publically communicate. Much appreciated.


 
Really. Are you pleased with the photos of the dogs on your site? Do they represent the true dog? Because I will say that not one of them looks to be structurally sound. And not one appears to be groomed, either - most dedicated breeders, proud of their dogs, would not consider posting photos of ill-kempt dogs to "promote their brand".
Tell me too, please, the parameter by which this statement, from your website, can be unquestionably stood behind:
"In twelve years, White Oak Golden Retrievers has become a leading breeder of British Cream, English Cream and American Golden Retriever puppies in the United States."

Have you shown these dogs? Have your customers shown your "brand" of animal? Are they titled in any venue at all? Please, I would much appreciate your publically communicating the criteria behind that claim?

12 years. 12 YEARS, and you consider yourself an expert? 30 years, having shown and bred several champions/obedience and field titled Goldens with sound generational health histories, and I wouldn't presume to call myself an expert. I have much more to learn.


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## cbrett (Dec 26, 2009)

Hi there,
Asside from the odd post where I am asking a "newbie" question, I have mostly still just been lurking on this site as I wait to bring my own pup home. (After that I am quite sure I will be on here all the time driving you all crazy with my questions). I have found the advice and information I have found on this site to be SO helpful. This thread has now intruigued me.... I have definitely read posts on here before where someone has given their not so great oppinion of a specific breeder, and their reasons why.... and then that breeder in question will actually respond on this site to deffend her/himself and give reasons, explanations and proof as to why the other posters were mistaken. ALWAYS, these posts have been met with nothing but respect by the other posters, who will thank said breeder for setting the record straight and giving her/him kudos for coming on here and letting her side of the story be told. 
As someone who is still learning so much about this breed, clearances etc... I keep reading this thread to see what the breeder in question here has to say. If this is a case of a poster being mistaken...... I have yet to read how. Aside from a lot of anger, I still haven't read anywhere on here from this breeder that these posters are incorrect. Is there an explanation for what they have dicovered?? Are the OFA records posted incorrectly?? And if so, how did this happen?? As someone who wants to be able to trust the breeder I work with (and I do), and develop a great relationship with her as I bring home and care for one of her dogs, It makes me sad that there might be breeders out there who might abuse the trust of the many out there who are much less educated on all this, such as myself. Call me naive...I'm still waiting for this breeder to prove she/he is trustworthy and that there has been some mistake and someone judged too soon.... but so far I'm not seeing this.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

ragtym said:


> The breeder is White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia.
> 
> Not a positive point for our state


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

cbrett said:


> Aside from a lot of anger, I still haven't read anywhere on here from this breeder that these posters are incorrect. Is there an explanation for what they have dicovered?? Are the OFA records posted incorrectly?? And if so, how did this happen?? As someone who wants to be able to trust the breeder I work with (and I do), and develop a great relationship with her as I bring home and care for one of her dogs, It makes me sad that there might be breeders out there who might abuse the trust of the many out there who are much less educated on all this, such as myself. Call me naive...I'm still waiting for this breeder to prove she/he is trustworthy and that there has been some mistake and someone judged too soon.... but so far I'm not seeing this.


I don't think those are dumb questions at all. They're the same ones I have. The breeder has come on the board to rant about the unfairness of the criticism, yet it seems to be that the criticism has not been shown to be anything but 100% accurate.

For example:


This individual breeds dogs who have failed hip clearances. His response is an incoherent rant about how databases can be inaccurate, but no actual denial of the failed ratings or any rationale for why the dogs were bred anyway.

At least one individual who actually owns a dysplastic White Oak dog has posted his story on this board.

The breeder makes wild claims about his role bringing English-style dogs to America, yet there is no evidence of this. 

There is no evidence that these dogs are shown at all (much less that they've won anything) in any venue.

The dogs in the photos do not appear to be properly structured. Yes, photos can sometimes portray a great dog in an unflattering way, but it's consistent across the whole site.

The dogs in the photos are repeatedly not groomed and many don't look particularly healthy. Is this in dispute?

Can these points be refuted? Is there something we're missing?


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

truewhitejem said:


> **RAGTYM** given your postings it is obvious you are a breeder want to be that is highly uneducated on any dog pedigree much less the business of dog breeding. I suggest you publicly admit your projecting a breeder "agenda" that is foolishly misrepresenting not only yourself, the dogs but more importantly People that depend on the integrity of the Owner who is able to stand behind the reputation and brand. And I do mean White Oak Golden Retrievers in West Virginia. As an owner of this brand, valued customer and educated person on the subject you have no place to discredit this fabulous company. White Oak Golden Retrievers is the best at what they do hands down...just ask the their customers...oh wait your not one yet!


So basically, oh person who refers to themselves in the third person, this is your response to what I wrote:


Do you guys have a handbook with a chapter on what to do when a person questions your breeding practices? I swear that's the same argument that other breeders like yourself have tried to use against me when I called them out.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Why don't you hang it up, seriously. I've completely lost all tolerance for true ignorance, and I don't even care if this is bannable, but people like you nauseate me. How you, so willing to profit off the backs of dogs with heritable diseases, with a relatively short history as a "breeder", can presume to know so much more than true experts in the breed and in the field of genetic health issues, as well as propogating totally false claims (ie that you singlehandedly introduced English Goldens to the US show rings blah blah blah) is beyond the pale - the EXCESSIVELY pale.
> 
> I apologize to the good GRF members here for my rant, but frankly, I have had it with such BS.
> 
> Mods - go ahead and ban me if you need to for my blatant infraction of forum rules and simple good etiquette.


Perfectly stated! Thank you for standing up for the breed against scumbags that prey on unsuspecting victims that ignorantly purchase unhealthy puppies and face a lot of heartbreak.


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## truewhitejem (Apr 13, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I don't think those are dumb questions at all. They're the same ones I have. The breeder has come on the board to rant about the unfairness of the criticism, yet it seems to be that the criticism has not been shown to be anything but 100% accurate.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


There is a discrepency in the OFA findings which is currently in litigation. As the webmaster for www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com, White Oak Golden Retrievers will pursue and hold legally responsible any party that defames or slanders White Oak Golden Retrievers.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

truewhitejem said:


> There is a discrepency in the OFA findings which is currently in litigation. As the webmaster for www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com, White Oak Golden Retrievers will pursue and hold legally responsible any party that defames or slanders White Oak Golden Retrievers.


Are you involved in the litigation against the OFA? What discrepancy are you referring to? Where is the litigation venued? I'm just a curious follower of this thread and would like more information on this alleged litigation.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

truewhitejem said:


> There is a discrepency in the OFA findings which is currently in litigation. As the webmaster for www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com, White Oak Golden Retrievers will pursue and hold legally responsible any party that defames or slanders White Oak Golden Retrievers.


 
So is there also a discrepency with Elbows, heart clearances with OFA, as well as CERF for eyes? Optigen? I don't see any information on your website, K9data, OFFA or CERF for your dogs. How unfortunate that you have such 'bad luck'.

Lana


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

truewhitejem said:


> There is a discrepency in the OFA findings which is currently in litigation. As the webmaster for www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com, White Oak Golden Retrievers will pursue and hold legally responsible any party that defames or slanders White Oak Golden Retrievers.


 
Must go along with the "discrepency" (sic) on your website here:
*"**In twelve years, White Oak Golden Retrievers has become a leading breeder of British Cream, English Cream and American Golden Retriever puppies in the United States."* 

and here:

*"White Oak Golden Retrievers offer only a couple litters per year specializing in the highest quality of AKC (American Kennel Club) registered British Cream Golden Retriever Puppies, English Cream Golden Retriever Puppies, White Golden Retriever Puppies and American Red Golden Retrievers Puppies to pet homes across America. " .*

See, the AKC registers Golden Retrievers. They do not register British Cream Golden Retrievers, English Cream Golden Retrievers, White Golden Retrievers or American Red Golden Retrievers.​ 
And there is also a question (yet unanswered, although previously asked...) about verifying the first statement above - and if you can do so, I'll congratulate you on having become "a leading breeder"...​ 
How frustrating for you that you've had to concern yourself with so many discrepancies.​


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

What would be the difference between a "British" Golden Retriever and an "English" Golden Retriever? I thought people of England called themselves "British"..? Or would the English Golden retriever find its roots in England, instead of Wales or Scotland? Very confusing. I know it's off topic, but it just makes me wonder.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

inge said:


> What would be the difference between a "British" Golden Retriever and an "English" Golden Retriever? I thought people of England called themselves "British"..? Or would the English Golden retriever find its roots in England, instead of Wales or Scotland? Very confusing. I know it's off topic, but it just makes me wonder.


 
Well, there is a discrepancy, you know. It's all under litigation, I'm sure. As soon as a verdict is made, we'll know the difference. Hopefully this top breeder of all colors/colours, styles, types will also be able to educate the American Kennel Club (and the United Kennel Club too, since THEY only register Golden Retrievers) about how it REALLY should be.

:doh:


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

> As the webmaster for www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com, White Oak Golden Retrievers will pursue and hold legally responsible any party that defames or slanders White Oak Golden Retrievers.


Since when does the webmaster get involved in matters of defamation? All the webmaster does is create and/or update a website with what the owner tells them to. 

Aside from that, why would you sue for defamation and slander anyway? 1) they are the same thing since slander is a form of defamation and 2) slander is the VERBAL form of defamation. Libel is the written form.  

Finally, why would you sue when you probably have no case? From the OFA certification paper that you signed when you submitted the radiographs (emphasis is mine):

"I hereby certify that the radiograph submitted is of the animal described on this application and that neither the pelvic nor the elbow conformation have been surgically altered. I understand that the radiograph and/or image submitted will be retained by the OFA.* I understand that the radiograph and/or image is submitted for a consensus evaluation based on the independent, professional judgment of consulting board-certified veterinary radiologists, and I hereby release the OFA from any and all liability resulting from the consensus evaluation. *I understand the OFA will release normal hip and/or elbow results for dogs over 24 months to the public, and by submitting this application I agree the OFA may do so. Abnormal hip and/or elbow results will not be released to the public unless the initials of a registered owner appear in the authorization box below. Normal hip results are defined as consensus evaluations of Excellent, Good, or Fair. Abnormal hip results are defined as consensus evaluations of Mild, Moderate, or Severe. For the purpose of determining whether or not the results will be released to the public, consensus hip evaluations of Borderline are considered abnormal. Normal elbow results are defined as a consensus evaluation of Normal. All other elbow consensus evaluations are considered abnormal."

I'm fairly certain that part in bold nullifies any lawsuit. Since you specifically said "There is a discrepency (sic) in the OFA findings", it sounds like that was going to be your premise for suing. Sorry but "I didn't like that they said my dogs were dysplastic" is probably not going to hold up in court when you AGREED to have them assess your dogs and to release them from liability when you signed the agreement.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ragtym said:


> Since when does the webmaster get involved in matters of defamation? All the webmaster does is create and/or update a website with what the owner tells them to.
> 
> BTW, why would you sue for defamation and slander? 1) they are the same thing since slander is a form of defamation and 2) slander is the VERBAL form of defamation. Libel is the written form.  And why would you sue when you probably have no case? From the OFA certification paper that you signed when you submitted the radiographs (emphasis is mine):
> 
> ...


 
Another "breeder" of great reputation also used the same rhetoric. The clearances were lost in the mail. The vet didn't send them. The OFA misplaced them. The newspaper will be printing a retraction. The AKC will be reinstating me. Yada yada yada...


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## Nel (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm terribly sorry to bring up this old post as I've been lurking around reading on breeders. Did truewhitejem in the beginning of the post claim to be one of the customers and then began claiming they work for White Oak Golden Retrievers?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

truewhitejem said:


> There is a discrepency in the OFA findings which is currently in litigation. As the webmaster for www.whiteoakgoldenretrievers.com, White Oak Golden Retrievers will pursue and hold legally responsible any party that defames or slanders White Oak Golden Retrievers.


I'm glad this thread got resurrected, because I don't think I had seen this response.

Libel is defamation that is written/published, so I'm pretty sure that's what you mean here, not slander.

It may be worth clarifying that in the US, truth is, by definition, not libel. If we write statements that we believe to be true and we do not engage in harassment or exaggeration, we are not committing any offense that we can be sued for or otherwise pursued for in any US court. The legal precedent that truth can not be libel dates back to the 18th century (Google John Peter Zenger if you're curious).

So please do not threaten me or anybody else, directly or indirectly. Especially since you have not disputed the truth of even a single claim that's been made here. 

It is documented online, in publicly available documents, that this breeder bred dogs who were found to have dysplasia by the OFA. It is, by definition, not libel to say this, since it is true. It is also not libel to say that breeding dysplastic dogs is unethical and a bad idea, since this is a clear part of the GRCA's code of ethics (and also fairly obvious). If you believe the OFA has misrated a dog, your beef is with them. You cannot threaten folks who look up the OFA records and discuss it (well, you can threaten them, but it's an empty threat).

Calling White Oak a "bad breeder" or other, more vague judgment calls, is also not libelous, because people are making that judgment by comparing the publicly available information about this breeder to publicly available statements from the breed club about responsible breeding.

Moreover, since White Oak is a business, we have every right to make a fair comment in a public forum. While a private citizen is generally not afforded quite as many rights as a journalist when it comes to reviewing a business or a product, we are well within our rights to express our opinions as to whether somebody should get a dog there (NO NO NO NO NO).

Harassment, lies, and insults are not as clearly protected, though you'd have a hell of a time actually following through on a lawsuit even if somebody was REALLY direct and offensive.

So, please discuss the issues with us. Perhaps even take a stab at explaining the rationale behind these apparently unethical actions and outlandish statements. But do not think you can intimidate honest people who simply have the dogs' best interests at heart.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nel said:


> I'm terribly sorry to bring up this old post as I've been lurking around reading on breeders. Did truewhitejem in the beginning of the post claim to be one of the customers and then began claiming they work for White Oak Golden Retrievers?


Actually, truewhitejem claimed to be a customer and a brand owner (whatever that is) in the same post. So, um, not totally clear what his or her position is.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Don't know why this came up for me today, but I read the whole thread again... what a nutty position to take!!
And how strange that now, even all these years later, not a single dog on k9data owned by Comer (white oak goldens) is listed on OFA. 
That lawsuit must have been for naught lol.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Now reading his site- what a hoot! "Comer's Copper Jake
Jake is from the old bloodlines of the deep, rich, ruby red color from the Irish Setter that was bred into the goldens originally. He is well known here on the East Coast and has produced some of the most beautiful "


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