# White Oak Golden Retrievers...arrgghh



## CarolinaCasey

That makes me sick and pretty angry.  What has happened to people that they will put the almighty dollar before the well-being of another living thing? I don't get it. :doh::doh::doh:


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## Emma&Tilly

Very sad.

Are they for real...this is the heading on the website...'*Breeders of British, English, White, European, Platinum, Cream and American Red Golden Retrievers' *They make _themselves _sound ridiculous.


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## Emma&Tilly

OH MY GOOD GOD, have you seen what they charge for a English, British, European, Hungarian, white, platinum, rare, cream-tea golden???? It's about 3 times as much as your bog standard, common as muck, red head. I'm gonna get me one of those red heads and do the opposite in this country...Rare, American, Canadian, ginger-biscuit golden retriever for sale £3000000 (how many naughts shall I add??)


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## K9-Design

If buyers are stupid enough to fall for that crap they deserve to pay that much.
I just feel sorry for the dogs.


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## HaliaGoldens

This is just sad...I can't look at another one of these sites. Now they're breeding dogs that they know are dysplastic? Ugh....I feel bad for those dogs. That one bitch Tootie supposedly just turned 2 yrs old, but in her photo she looks about 10....overweight, ungroomed, tear stains all down her face...


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## sandyhp

Hey, what happened to the rest of this post? I thought there was more of it....or was I just imagining it????


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## Mssjnnfer

Emma&Tilly said:


> OH MY GOOD GOD, have you seen what they charge for a English, British, European, Hungarian, white, platinum, rare, cream-tea golden???? It's about 3 times as much as your bog standard, common as muck, red head. I'm gonna get me one of those red heads and do the opposite in this country...Rare, American, Canadian, ginger-biscuit golden retriever for sale £3000000 (how many naughts shall I add??)


Make sure you make them in miniature size too. For "comfort" ...


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## Ljilly28

I just cannot imagine living with the guilt of knowingly breeding goldens with a likelihood of hip dysplasia. People are sick.


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## mk720

*concerned newbie*

Hi,
I found this thread in a search for said breeder, which had advertised in the Washington Post. Needless to say I'm pretty chagrined to think I could have bought one of these puppies.

What resources do you recommend for finding a "good" breeder? How would I know about these health issues when breeders may misrepresent themselves? Are there any good websites I should look at, or should I talk to the breeders directly?

Thanks for any info you can provide. Glad I found this website and thread.


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## CarolinaCasey

Look at the top of this section. There are 'stickies' that will provide you with some good information on how to find a good breeder.

Begin by contacting your local GR Club and ask for a puppy referral.

Start a new thread about looking for breeders in your area- there are very knowledgeable people here that can give you some personal recommendations.

Welcome.


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## ragtym

So if anyone thought that this breeding might have been accidental, this will put that thought from your mind...the newest litter on their site is:

Sampson (http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295951), the OFA Moderate Uni Left was also bred to the mother of one of the Moderately dysplastic bitches. 

It's funny how they removed the references to OFA from those dogs that didn't clear but left this line "We are proud to offer a pure, healthy line of these exceptional goldens to homes across America."

Oh, really? :yuck:


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## DanielPatrick

We have one of their 'exceptional' goldens who is 1 year old. She is MORE than moderately dysplasic in her hips and she had elbow surgery at 6 months. Her demeanor is sweet and we would never replace her with another puppy from this breeder, as they have offered. These breeders have been apologetic but very derogatory and combative. I hope that others see these posts before purchasing a dog from White Oak Golden Retrievers. Financially, surgery and post operative therapy, have cost us an additional $8000. Very frustrating...


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## LibertyME

Glad you found your way here DP...
Your pup is extremely lucky to have found her way to you...
PLEASE enter your dog and her health status into K9data if you have not done so already...


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## Nicole74

That makes me so sick to my stomach! 

I'm very glad you made this post in warning to this awful breeder. Hopefully someone will look at this post and think twice before buying a pup from them. Also, this post will open eyes of others what to look for when buying a pup.


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## tippykayak

DanielPatrick said:


> We have one of their 'exceptional' goldens who is 1 year old. She is MORE than moderately dysplasic in her hips and she had elbow surgery at 6 months. Her demeanor is sweet and we would never replace her with another puppy from this breeder, as they have offered. These breeders have been apologetic but very derogatory and combative. I hope that others see these posts before purchasing a dog from White Oak Golden Retrievers. Financially, surgery and post operative therapy, have cost us an additional $8000. Very frustrating...


I'm very sorry this happened to you. Most of us would have been fooled by marketing like White Oak's at one time. This forum is a great place to tell your story and to find other owners who've dealt with dysplasia. Your experience can help people avoid bad breeders and people whose dogs suffer from dysplasia.

You guys are amazing owners for going through this with your dog.

Did they at least refund the purchase price to help pay for the surgery?


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## DanielPatrick

No they did not reimburse us for anything. No money back guaranteed...


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## DanielPatrick

We definitely love our little girl! She is one in a million and we treat her like one of our kids...only the best


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## AquaClaraCanines

Are these the same scum that have/had White Dove, or is this a different cretin?


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## HaliaGoldens

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Are these the same scum that have/had White Dove, or is this a different cretin?


I believe that this is a different "breeder". White Dove is in California, and these guys are in West Virginia.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

DanielPatrick said:


> We definitely love our little girl! She is one in a million and we treat her like one of our kids...only the best


I am so glad your little girl found you... to love and cherish her through all her difficulties. There has to be a special place in he!! for "breeders" like that. I'm so sorry you are going through this, but I know the forum will provide you with lots of support and friendship. And, as others have said, telling your story can prevent others from making the same mistake.


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## SweetSophie

I am new to posting, tried to send private message to Daniel Patrick but apparently I am too new. VERY MUCH want to talk to about your dog and White Oak. We have a seven month old pup from there that was just diagnosed with severe elbow and hip displasia. We are devastated and have surgery scheduled this week. The breeder told us this has never happened before.


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## CarolinaCasey

SweetSophie said:


> I am new to posting, tried to send private message to Daniel Patrick but apparently I am too new. VERY MUCH want to talk to about your dog and White Oak. We have a seven month old pup from there that was just diagnosed with severe elbow and hip displasia. We are devastated and have surgery scheduled this week. The breeder told us this has never happened before.


You either need 15 or 30 posts to begin sending PM's. Keep posting!! 

I'm sorry that your dog has been diagnosed with HD/ED. It has certainly, by the sounds of it from information provided by past buyers, happened to other dogs bred by White Oak. 

Please start posting, we'd love to hear about Sophie.


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## nixietink

SweetSophie said:


> I am new to posting, tried to send private message to Daniel Patrick but apparently I am too new. VERY MUCH want to talk to about your dog and White Oak. We have a seven month old pup from there that was just diagnosed with severe elbow and hip displasia. We are devastated and have surgery scheduled this week. The breeder told us this has never happened before.


Oh my gosh I am so, so sorry to hear this. My heart is truly breaking for you and your puppy. At least your pup has loving owners like you.

Never happened before...yea I'm not so sure about that. 

EDIT: YES, please post away!! We love pictures.


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## kwiland

This is just horrific. I wish I knew better when we got Winnie 8 years ago. He came from a terrible back yard breeder, and at the time, I just did not know any better. Aside from Winnie's terrible skin conditions and food allergies, he has been very healthy. All in all, we were very lucky. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this, and outraged that it is legal to breed dogs with serious health issues! 

I've been following a story about a Mastiff breeder, Gloria Davis, who supposedly killed and starved her dogs. It's a complicated story, with hints of foul play. The Mastiff community is advocating a way of internally monitoring breeders, with spot checks and 'suprise' visits. I think it would be really, really hard to pull off, but it would be a fantastic idea, if it could be done. We need to police our own. I don't really belive in the concept of Hell, but part of me does hope there is a special Hell for these breeders who so irresponsibly, and unsympathetically, harm dogs.


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## Ljilly28

SweetSophie said:


> I am new to posting, tried to send private message to Daniel Patrick but apparently I am too new. VERY MUCH want to talk to about your dog and White Oak. We have a seven month old pup from there that was just diagnosed with severe elbow and hip displasia. We are devastated and have surgery scheduled this week. The breeder told us this has never happened before.


What a heartbreaker- so sorry. I do want to say that taking aggressive action at 7 months, before the joints get damaged, is the right course of action. Our girl with severe elbow dysplasia respond shockingly well to double elbow surgery at 7 months. Though it was stressful making the decisions and supervising her recovery process, she is 100 percent more sound and happy today. You would never know how bad things were.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I'd like to follow Jill and say that my boy Shadow had two hip surgeries before the age of one. He is 7 years old now and doing beautifully!


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## ragtym

I've already sent SweetSophie a message about this but I'd like to put this out there for Daniel Patrick as well. Please consider entering your dogs' pedigree information into k9data.com and also using the Golden Retriever Online Health Registry database to enter more detailed information about your pups. 

Information about the OHR can be found here: http://www.healthygoldens.com/ If you need any help doing this, just ask. I for one, would be glad to guide you through it as would many others, I'm sure.


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## tippykayak

ragtym said:


> I've already sent SweetSophie a message about this but I'd like to put this out there for Daniel Patrick as well. Please consider entering your dogs' pedigree information into k9data.com and also using the Golden Retriever Online Health Registry database to enter more detailed information about your pups.
> 
> Information about the OHR can be found here: http://www.healthygoldens.com/ If you need any help doing this, just ask. I for one, would be glad to guide you through it as would many others, I'm sure.


This is a fantastic idea. Clear, honest, open data is the best way to help prospective buyers find great breeders and avoid unscrupulous ones.

I think it's important to be as factual as possible in writing OHR records, even if you believe the dog's health problems are the breeder's fault, but providing specific, detailed information is a good thing.

So yes, everyone, please use k9data to enter your dog's pedigree information, and attach OHR records whether your dog is totally healthy or not. Information is power.

As an example, here's my old dog Gus's k9data listing. You can see a red "OHR" next to his name. You can click on that and see all of his health info, including his cause of death.


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## Molly1

I am a client of White Oak Golden Retrievers. I have the most BEAUTUFUL
Golden Retriever. I have been at the Farm and met the owners. I have seen the both the mother and the father of my golden. The farm is gorgeous!
The dogs are free to run and play. They are well groomed and CLEAN! 
They very healthy and happy animals. I have searched a very long time to 
find the best quality, high professional, honest and very caring breeders.
If you want a show dog or a sweet healthy lovable companion, then 
contact White Oak Golden Retrievers. I love my golden and I am so happy 
that I found them.


Molly1


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## WLR

Well, welcome to the forum....glad your experience was a positive one.
Too bad from reading all the previous posts in this thread it seems like yours will be the only positive one.
We, as a whole, do not take shoddy breeding practices lightly.


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## Pointgold

Molly1 said:


> I am a client of White Oak Golden Retrievers. I have the most BEAUTUFUL
> Golden Retriever. I have been at the Farm and met the owners. I have seen the both the mother and the father of my golden. The farm is gorgeous!
> The dogs are free to run and play. They are well groomed and CLEAN!
> They very healthy and happy animals. I have searched a very long time to
> find the best quality, high professional, honest and very caring breeders.
> If you want a show dog or a sweet healthy lovable companion, then
> contact White Oak Golden Retrievers. I love my golden and I am so happy
> that I found them.
> 
> 
> Molly1


 
Good for you. Now, hopefully, the dog will remain healthy, which is most important. And, perhaps the fabulous White Oak Golden Retriever's owner will change everything on his website to reflect your incredible testimony - because thus far, nothing on it would suggest anything but mediocre, ungroomed dogs, And they certainly are NOT show dogs. It would behoove them, as well, to edit their text, as there is NO SUCH THING as "AKC Registered British Cream Golden Retrievers, AKC Registered English Cream Golden Retrievers, AKC Registered White Golden Retrievers, or AKC Registered American Red Golden Retriever. None of their rhetoric is accurate, but as long as their are nice people like you out there, they'll get away with it. You either didn't do your homework to completion, or, you took an open book test and the book you used was written by these internet puppy marketers/manufacturers. Best quality? Now there's a truly subjective opinion...


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## tippykayak

Molly1 said:


> I am a client of White Oak Golden Retrievers. I have the most BEAUTUFUL
> Golden Retriever. I have been at the Farm and met the owners. I have seen the both the mother and the father of my golden. The farm is gorgeous!
> The dogs are free to run and play. They are well groomed and CLEAN!
> They very healthy and happy animals. I have searched a very long time to
> find the best quality, high professional, honest and very caring breeders.
> If you want a show dog or a sweet healthy lovable companion, then
> contact White Oak Golden Retrievers. I love my golden and I am so happy
> that I found them.
> 
> 
> Molly1


I'm so glad your Golden is happy and healthy. That can happen even when the breeder doesn't take every possible precaution. There's a reason, though, that the GRCA recommends, as a bare minimum, clearances on hearts, eyes, hips, and elbows. It's about minimizing the chance of problems, and White Oak doesn't do it. Let me stress that these clearances are a _bare minimum_ for ethical breeding. There are a million other things that go into a great breeding, but not having clearances is a huge red flag that the breeder is not taking proper care to give puppies the best possible shot at long, healthy lives free from debilitating, painful conditions.

Also, it probably is not responsible to tell people they can get a "show dog" from this kennel since not a single dog in their breeding stock has finished a championship. It doesn't even look like any of them have even been entered in any kind of conformation or working competition. Having champions back somewhere in the pedigree doesn't mean that a dog will be show quality.

Why not stick around and post some pictures of your pup? The community here can be very critical of breeders who don't appear to be living up to basic ethical guidelines, but they're also a wonderful group of people with whom to share dog pictures and discuss health issues if they do crop up.


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## Lilliam

@Molly1 - it is commendable to stand up for what you believe in and to show loyalty where you feel it is due.

Now - here is the "but" that you know is coming - your positive experience thus far does not negate the irresponsibility and negligence inherent in inbreeding genetically unsound dogs. Dysplasia is quite complicated, and although your dog is healthy there is quite a large possibilty that many, many dysplactic puppies will come from these breeders. Knowing that, I question how it is possible to endorse them.

Dysplasia is a crippling, painful condition. Owners can expect expenses in excess of $5000. There will be an invasive surgery the dog will need to undergo. This cannot be prevented with 100% certainty, but the likelihood can be lessened by not breeding two dysplastic dogs.
I've dealt with this, and it was a horrible experience to see my young, energetic dog limping and then having to go through the surgery and the long recovery. 
You are lucky today. I don't recall reading how old your dog is - hopefully there won't be any problems. But any breeder with these breeding practices does not have the best interest of the breed, the puppies, or the clients in mind. Only making money off sick dogs. 
I respectfully request that you keep that in mind before endorsing them.


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## Lilliam

OMG - I remember that site. I ran away when I saw all the colours mentioned. 
There but for the grace of God...


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## tippykayak

Lilliam said:


> Dysplasia is a crippling, painful condition. Owners can expect expenses in excess of $5000. There will be an invasive surgery the dog will need to undergo. This cannot be prevented with 100% certainty, but the likelihood can be lessened by not breeding two dysplastic dogs.
> I've dealt with this, and it was a horrible experience to see my young, energetic dog limping and then having to go through the surgery and the long recovery.


This is really, really well put. We cannot control these conditions 100%, but we can cut down vastly on their likelihood by following basic good breeding practices. You also make it incredibly clear that dysplasia doesn't only cause financial hardship for owners but also suffering in dogs, and that's the real reason that foregoing clearances isn't ethical.


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## Lilliam

Thank you, tk!!! As we've discussed before, my puppykates was dysplastic...we did the surgery. It was very, very hard on her. Double full hip replacement means cutting the top of the femur, reconstucting the socket, inserting a ball and monitoring the fit for life. If my puppykates would have gone through a metal detector alarms would have rung out. And it was six weeks of a difficult recovery each time, because the surgeon wanted her to have one side on which she could put weight when we towel walked her to go potty.
Mentally she was a wreck because she was bored out of her mind. Physically she was in pain. I hated, hated having her go through that. Her hips were so bad that she would not have been able to walk in her old age had we not had the surgery.

I would like anyone who is dismissive of the pain that a dog endures as she recovers from a double hip replacement to talk to me privately. I'll not use polite words.


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## MGMF

This whole thing saddens me. There is no excuse for breeders not to do it right. It can only be greed and dis-honesty to breed sick dogs and market them as something they are not. Goldens Retrievers are golden retrievers no matter what color you want to market. It is the dog buyers that are the suckers for believing this is special dog and should pay more. It is also disgusting that breeders would take advantage of the buyers lack of knowledge. My goldens pups sometimes are very light but I would never list them as "creams", "english" or any other discription then what they are "golden retrievers" As for Molly1 I am glad you had a good experience and I wish your dog a lifetime of health. To say the pups were cute and the dogs were clean is no reason to buy a pup. I can give you the name of many breeders and their dogs are clean and the pups are cute but they also did everything ethically with the health and care of their dogs in mind.


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## Pointgold

These puppy manufacturers lie. Of COURSE they know that they have produced dysplastic dogs - we have several members right here on the forum who have dogs from them and have informed them. Without any sort of help or compensation from them, for their "customers", let alone showing any concern for the puppies. To repeat such breedings that have produced dysplastic puppies is beyond negligent.
There are now dozens and dozens of these factories pumping out puppies and selling them for exhorbitant prices to nice people who see fancy websites, often loaded with text that actually has been lifted from the sites of _reputable breeders and organizations, _posted soley to "legitimize" what they do. Talk the talk, but why walk the walk, when the average puppy buyer simply believes whatever they read/see?


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## surfqueen

Wrong!!!!..We purchased a great dog from White Oak breeders. They do have records, x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems, and the parents of all litters are on site to see the physicality of their dogs. Sounds more like a disgruntled breeder is trying to malign a VERY REPUTABLE one that runs a first class operation with the utmost concern for their puppies.


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## nixietink

surfqueen said:


> Wrong!!!!..We purchased a great dog from White Oak breeders. They do have records, x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems, and the parents of all litters are on site to see the physicality of their dogs. Sounds more like a disgruntled breeder is trying to malign a VERY REPUTABLE one that runs a first class operation with the utmost concern for their puppies.


Lol, I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Reputable breeder will not advertise their dogs as British Creme. Reputable breeder show their dog in a venue. Please link to me clearances of their dogs in the OFA database for hips, elbows, heart, and eyes. K thanks.


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## tippykayak

surfqueen said:


> Wrong!!!!..We purchased a great dog from White Oak breeders. They do have records, x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems, and the parents of all litters are on site to see the physicality of their dogs. Sounds more like a disgruntled breeder is trying to malign a VERY REPUTABLE one that runs a first class operation with the utmost concern for their puppies.


How could we all be disgruntled breeders, and what benefit would we get from pointing out the obvious about White Oak? I don't even breed dogs, so what's my motivation?

It's good that they have some x-rays and their animals' vet records. However, clearances are more than an x-ray or a vet's OK. They're certifications by an independent body (like OFA or PennHIP). There is a reason that the GRCA itself lists these clearances as one of the bare minimum elements of ethical breeding. So it's a little misleading to say they have "x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems" when they haven't sent the x-rays to OFA or PennHIP for evaluation, or when they have and the dog failed, so they pulled the record from the online database.

This breeder does not do the bare minimum clearances for breeding, and may have hidden failed clearances. It's open and shut.

There are also a dozen other red flags on this breeder (misleading marketing, overpriced dogs, photos of dogs with apparently poor structure and a lack of proper grooming, a failure to compete in any conformation or working venue, etc.). We focus on clearances because those are instantly and easily verifiable, and this breeder doesn't have 'em.


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## Lilliam

surfqueen said:


> Wrong!!!!..We purchased a great dog from White Oak breeders. They do have records, x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems, and the parents of all litters are on site to see the physicality of their dogs. Sounds more like a disgruntled breeder is trying to malign a VERY REPUTABLE one that runs a first class operation with the utmost concern for their puppies.


 
1) how old is your dog?
2) are you aware that dysplastic dogs can be asymptomatic when moving slowly but cannot sustain a run for any length of time without limping?
3) where in any description of a golden retriever are there colors such as those listed on this breeder's website?
4) where is the OFA information on these dogs?
5) where are the CERF results for these dogs?
6) why would two clients lie about their dogs' health?
7) why are the dogs on the website overweight?

Really?!? I mean - really?!?!!?! 

I had a dysplastic dog. I know the pain, suffering and expense involved. 

OK - to avoid getting my Basque up...I'll just walk away from this....


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## Pointgold

surfqueen said:


> Wrong!!!!..We purchased a great dog from White Oak breeders. They do have records, x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems, and the parents of all litters are on site to see the physicality of their dogs. Sounds more like a disgruntled breeder is trying to malign a VERY REPUTABLE one that runs a first class operation with the utmost concern for their puppies.


Trust me. They are NOT "reputable". They DO have a "reputation"... lol


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## Goldenfairy

Why are you guys doing this to this breeder? You have no idea what type of dogs they have. Shame on you. Its fine to want to stick up for healthy breeding but this is just you guys bashing someone with no proof. 25% of all goldens no matter what the pedigree will have this. There is no way to prove your dogs dont have it. So what goldens are so great that these dont stand up to??? Same with the goldens I see in all your photos and same with everyone elses. Youre not vets and none of you know what the heck you are talking about. If we sent an xray in of your dogs you might get the same result. This defect is so common and so speculative to begin with there is no way to even say if thier dogs have it or not!! LOL So get down off your high horses. Also the operation seems to be of very high quality. They dont sell a lot of puppies in comparison to other breeders and only offer them at higher prices unlike other breeders who give them away just to sell more puppies! Hello!!!! I produce products for dogs breeders. Basically every real breeder, shelter, rescue and vet in all 50 states and 13 countries have our products. We are with the AKC, ASPCA,HUM SOC,THE US GOV and support super high end breeders like DISNEY so yeah you guys are a little low level to be acting like you know everything!! LOL LOL LOL. 90% of breeders including the low level breeder ragtyme who created this terrible thread ( who I know well but she doesnt know that) do not have the quality of dogs or the quality of operation as this breeder you are bashing!!! Not to mention you are getting what little info you have from K9 data stats that are well known to be totally inaccurate and not up to date. Do your research. White Oak Goldens have a couple of good dogs and a nice website. Why are you attacking them with no proof? These people are obviously not as bad as you are making them out to be. Thats all Im saying.


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## surfqueen

tippykayak said:


> How could we all be disgruntled breeders, and what benefit would we get from pointing out the obvious about White Oak? I don't even breed dogs, so what's my motivation?
> 
> It's good that they have some x-rays and their animals' vet records. However, clearances are more than an x-ray or a vet's OK. They're certifications by an independent body (like OFA or PennHIP). There is a reason that the GRCA itself lists these clearances as one of the bare minimum elements of ethical breeding. So it's a little misleading to say they have "x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems" when they haven't sent the x-rays to OFA or PennHIP for evaluation.
> 
> This breeder does not do the bare minimum clearances for breeding. It's open and shut.
> 
> There are also a dozen other red flags on this breeder (misleading marketing, overpriced dogs, photos of dogs with apparently poor structure and a lack of proper grooming, a failure to compete in any conformation or working venue, etc.). We focus on clearances because those are instantly and easily verifiable, and this breeder doesn't have 'em.




...so you're not a breeder....have you bothered to speak to people who have purchased animals from White Oak? What makes you an authority on this subject, and what's your point? Any potential buyers are free to visit the farm, see the puppies, play with the parents.......if you have children...did the docs and hosp. assure you that your kids would go through life free of disease and never get sick??? Perhaps put this much energy into world peace, or cleaning up the environment...life's short!


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## Goldenfairy

*Shame on you guys*

Why are you guys doing this to this breeder? You have no idea what type of dogs they have. Shame on you. Its fine to want to stick up for healthy breeding but this is just you guys bashing someone with no proof. 25% of all goldens no matter what the pedigree will have this. There is no way to prove your dogs dont have it. So what goldens are so great that these dont stand up to??? Same with the goldens I see in all your photos and same with everyone elses. Youre not vets and none of you know what the heck you are talking about. If we sent an xray in of your dogs you might get the same result. This defect is so common and so speculative to begin with there is no way to even say if thier dogs have it or not!! LOL So get down off your high horses. Also the operation seems to be of very high quality. They dont sell a lot of puppies in comparison to other breeders and only offer them at higher prices unlike other breeders who give them away just to sell more puppies! Hello!!!! I produce products for dogs breeders. Basically every real breeder, shelter, rescue and vet in all 50 states and 13 countries have our products. We are with the AKC, ASPCA,HUM SOC,THE US GOV and support super high end breeders like DISNEY so yeah you guys are a little low level to be acting like you know everything!! LOL LOL LOL. 90% of breeders including the low level breeder ragtyme who created this terrible thread ( who I know well but she doesnt know that) do not have the quality of dogs or the quality of operation as this breeder you are bashing!!! Not to mention you are getting what little info you have from K9 data stats that are well known to be totally inaccurate and not up to date. Do your research. White Oak Goldens have a couple of good dogs and a nice website. Why are you attacking them with no proof? These people are obviously not as bad as you are making them out to be. Thats all Im saying.


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## Pointgold

Right..

Actually, the above post is probably the funniest thing that I have read in a VERY long time. Thanks for the laugh - I needed it!!!


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## CarolinaCasey

I think it's funny that all of these people magically have joined our forum this month (re: today) to solely defend White Oak. Hummm... that seems fishy.

White Oak is not reputable. Their dogs and lack of clearances speak for themselves. Just my .02 cents.


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## Goldenfairy

Also Ive contacted white oak to help them and they have official OFA records to show thier dogs dont even have this!! This thread and all this stuff is based on K9 Data records who everyone knows is not accurate and not up to date LOL. They even sent me an email from K9 Data showing me how the person told them even though the OFA removed thier dogs that they couldnt and wouldnt remove the info from thier list!!! The info you are basing all this on and hurting this person and dissing everything they have put thier life into is not even true!!!! The person who made the thread ( ragtyme) never bought a dog. They were turned down because white oak doesnt sell to breeders for obvious reasons. Thats what started this. Because they wouldnt sell her a dog she wants to hurt them now. She threw a tantrem about it on the phone and started all this after that. Hard to say thier dogs arent healthy and back up the person who made this thread when they tried to buy one!! OMG LOL!! Then the other person who said thier dog had it was also not even a customer of white oak. He was obviously just trying to validate the hurtful claims of ragtyme and was probably her friend!! Hello! You guys arent the smartest peanuts in the turd huh?? Believe everything you read I guess even if its just a post on a message board? Shame shame shame


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## Bender

Proof is in the clearances, which they are lacking in. Otherwise they'd post them on their website and people could look them up on OFA's database - which reputable breeders DO. Some dogs do have hip problems in their lines, that means THEY SHOULD NOT BE BRED! It does not mean go ahead and stick your head in the sand and pretend there's nothing to be done. 

And it's not just hips, there's elbows. Heart. Eyes. Are those being done? Prove it. Because we generally hear from heartbroken people who have gotten a dog from factories like this one and are now faced with a dog who will live in pain for life or die an early death because the 'breeder' was too cheap and greedy to do health clearances and produce healthy dogs. I don't care so much how they look personally as long as they're HEALTHY!!! These things CAN and SHOULD be tested for, it's not that difficult to prove a dog does or does not have these health defects!

As for the people on here that should send in xrays, my old dog has her clearances, but was never bred anyway. I'm sure any of the breeders on here can say the same thing of their dogs used for breeding, they have clearances done because they actually care about the breed. Not the profit.

White oaks has an OK website and 14 breeding dogs on there, two litters for sale. Not what I'd call a 'few' dogs.

Besides, if this little, small time website doesn't really matter, then why waste your time? Get a disney dog.

Lana




Goldenfairy said:


> Why are you guys doing this to this breeder? You have no idea what type of dogs they have. Shame on you. Its fine to want to stick up for healthy breeding but this is just you guys bashing someone with no proof. 25% of all goldens no matter what the pedigree will have this. There is no way to prove your dogs dont have it. So what goldens are so great that these dont stand up to??? Same with the goldens I see in all your photos and same with everyone elses. Youre not vets and none of you know what the heck you are talking about. If we sent an xray in of your dogs you might get the same result. This defect is so common and so speculative to begin with there is no way to even say if thier dogs have it or not!! LOL So get down off your high horses. Also the operation seems to be of very high quality. They dont sell a lot of puppies in comparison to other breeders and only offer them at higher prices unlike other breeders who give them away just to sell more puppies! Hello!!!! I produce products for dogs breeders. Basically every real breeder, shelter, rescue and vet in all 50 states and 13 countries have our products. We are with the AKC, ASPCA,HUM SOC,THE US GOV and support super high end breeders like DISNEY so yeah you guys are a little low level to be acting like you know everything!! LOL LOL LOL. 90% of breeders including the low level breeder ragtyme who created this terrible thread ( who I know well but she doesnt know that) do not have the quality of dogs or the quality of operation as this breeder you are bashing!!! Not to mention you are getting what little info you have from K9 data stats that are well known to be totally inaccurate and not up to date. Do your research. White Oak Goldens have a couple of good dogs and a nice website. Why are you attacking them with no proof? These people are obviously not as bad as you are making them out to be. Thats all Im saying.


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## Bender

CarolinaCasey said:


> I think it's funny that all of these people magically have joined our forum this month (re: today) to solely defend White Oak. Hummm... that seems fishy.
> 
> White Oak is not reputable. Their dogs and lack of clearances speak for themselves. Just my .02 cents.


Darn it, we're educating buyers again and they're asking too many questions instead of handing over the cash. Shame on us. I feel so dirty.:

Lana


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## timberwolf

I have a question that maybe Surfqueen or Goldenfairy can answer - or anyone else for that matter.
Where on the Whiteoaks website (which by the sound of things is "nice") does it say what health clearance they do on their dogs? I've looked all through it and can't seem to find them anywhere.
I would assume that since they have a "couple of good dogs", some health clearances have been done.


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## nixietink

CarolinaCasey said:


> I think it's funny that all of these people magically have joined our forum this month (re: today) to solely defend White Oak. Hummm... that seems fishy.
> 
> White Oak is not reputable. Their dogs and lack of clearances speak for themselves. Just my .02 cents.


Exactly. NOTHING, and I mean *NOTHING* these people can say will ever make me think, in a million years, that White Oak is reputable.

This thread makes me so mad and sick.


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## Goldenfairy

*White Oak goldens*

You are specifically saying they arent reputable and you dont even know them or anything about them but a couple pictures you saw and the info on this thread? How on earth can you say such mean things about someones dogs who you dont even know anything about? if you want to debate then debate the facts. Your dogs have just as much of a chance to have this as theirs do! The affliction is totally speculative and cannont be proven unless its in its most extreme stage so there is no way to say thier dogs have it or not. When one of thier dogs has it for real then you can talk. You are saying thier dogs arent good becuase they MIGHT get it!! Might is not enough to hurt someone like this. White oak hasnt even come on here to defend themselves because you freaks are like a pack of wolves! They have OFA clearance and you guys are just looking at K9 Data info. Im betting that there will be a lot of people coming on to defend white oak since you guys want to try and hurt them so badly now.


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## Bender

Potential buyers of our puppies can buy with confidence that they are receiving a healthy puppy. Our adult dogs eat a daily raw meat diet and enjoy quality socialization, exercise to play and swim on our farm. Our puppies receive continuous veterinary care right up to the time they go to their new homes. 

This is all that's written on their website as far as clearances. Nothing on k9data, three dogs listed on the OFA website. If it walks like a duck and quacks..... 

Lana


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## nixietink

Goldenfairy said:


> You are specifically saying they arent reputable and you dont even know them or anything about them but a couple pictures you saw and the info on this thread? How on earth can you say such mean things about someones dogs who you dont even know anything about? if you want to debate then debate the facts. Your dogs have just as much of a chance to have this as theirs do! The affliction is totally speculative and cannont be proven unless its in its most extreme stage so there is no way to say thier dogs have it or not. When one of thier dogs has it for real then you can talk. You are saying thier dogs arent good becuase they MIGHT get it!! Might is not enough to hurt someone like this. White oak hasnt even come on here to defend themselves because you freaks are like a pack of wolves! They have OFA clearance and you guys are just looking at K9 Data info. Im betting that there will be a lot of people coming on to defend white oak since you guys want to try and hurt them so badly now.


Say what you will, but the OFA website tells me differently.


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## vixen

Firstly, as said by a very well known breeder in the UK, goldens do NOT come in white.

Secondly, if they have clearance's why hide them?


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## Pointgold

Goldenfairy said:


> Also Ive contacted white oak to help them and they have official OFA records to show thier dogs dont even have this!! This thread and all this stuff is based on K9 Data records who everyone knows is not accurate and not up to date LOL. They even sent me an email from K9 Data showing me how the person told them even though the OFA removed thier dogs that they couldnt and wouldnt remove the info from thier list!!! The info you are basing all this on and hurting this person and dissing everything they have put thier life into is not even true!!!! The person who made the thread ( ragtyme) never bought a dog. They were turned down because white oak doesnt sell to breeders for obvious reasons. Thats what started this. Because they wouldnt sell her a dog she wants to hurt them now. She threw a tantrem about it on the phone and started all this after that. Hard to say thier dogs arent healthy and back up the person who made this thread when they tried to buy one!! OMG LOL!! Then the other person who said thier dog had it was also not even a customer of white oak. He was obviously just trying to validate the hurtful claims of ragtyme and was probably her friend!! Hello! You guys arent the smartest peanuts in the turd huh?? Believe everything you read I guess even if its just a post on a message board? Shame shame shame


 
HAHAHAHA. This is rich. I'd bet the last dime that I have left after having fought the likes of another "breeder" who sang the same song as is being sung by/about the illustrious White Oak Kennel that Ragtyme wouldn't be caught dead with one of their dogs, let alone _breed _one of them. K9 data, FYI, is a well respected database, and that little OFA thing? Their data base is also highly respected and when a breeder claims clearances but they are not on the database, something smells like rotten fish.

White Oak doesn't sell to breeders? Hmmm...yet, one of their loyal supporters claimed that if you want a great show dog, contact them... Lots of funny little contradictions. Funny, too, how every time there is activity here about White Oak, there is an edit made to their website... needing better talk to talk, maybe? (Walking the walk would be better...)

Reputable, KNOWLEDGEABLE breeders do NOT price according to color, nor, as I pointed out earlier, would they EVER advertise AKC Registered British Cream Golden Retriever (no such thing) AKC Registered English Cream Golden Retriever (no such thing) AKC Registered White Golden Retriever (no such thing) or AKC Registered American Red Golden Retriever (no such thing). Its a joke. And you either fell for it, or, much more likely, you ARE White Oak Golden Retrievers and no one here is buying what you're selling.


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## Goldenfairy

Just to be clear, RAGTYME the person who made this thread TRIED TO BUY A DOG FROM WHITE OAK!!!! HELLOOOOOOOOOO!!! Are you guys in there???!!! ragtyme just caused this trouble because white oak refused to sell to them. They wanted the dogs, thought the dogs were great, and obviously wanted to breed one of the dogs themselves in their area. White oak doesnt sell to breeders and ragtyme threw a fit about it. So ragtyme needs to zip her lyin lip!!! White oak goldens have OFA documentation and ragtyme just pulled bogus unconfirmed info from K9 Data to try to hurt them. Its just not true. The topic is valid but these breeders are not guilty of the things you are saying. You guys are all so passionate but with no facts to go on. Thats just silly to me.


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## timberwolf

Another question for you Goldenfairy - Did you happen to ask about the elbow, eye and heart clearances that should be done on all dogs before breeding them or do you figure none of that is needed?


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## Pointgold

Goldenfairy said:


> You are specifically saying they arent reputable and you dont even know them or anything about them but a couple pictures you saw and the info on this thread? How on earth can you say such mean things about someones dogs who you dont even know anything about? if you want to debate then debate the facts. Your dogs have just as much of a chance to have this as theirs do! The affliction is totally speculative and cannont be proven unless its in its most extreme stage so there is no way to say thier dogs have it or not. When one of thier dogs has it for real then you can talk. You are saying thier dogs arent good becuase they MIGHT get it!! Might is not enough to hurt someone like this. White oak hasnt even come on here to defend themselves because you freaks are like a pack of wolves! They have OFA clearance and you guys are just looking at K9 Data info. Im betting that there will be a lot of people coming on to defend white oak since you guys want to try and hurt them so badly now.


Wrong, wrong, wrong. 
There have in fact been people on this forum who HAVE dyplastic White Oak dogs. 
As one deeply involved in the Golden Retriever breed for a very long time, including breeding, training, showing, and judging, the photos on their website very clearly show the quality and conformation of their dogs... 
K9 Data? That information is entered BY THE COMERS. So if it is incorrect, _they_ entered it incorrectly! If they have the OFA clearances that they claim they do, why are they not on the OFA Database? Hmmm???

I'm not new at this.


----------



## Bender

You're cute. In a scary troll sorta way. 

Actually, my dogs all come from a background of cleared hips. Bender's hips are OFA good. Storee hasn't had her hips done yet but comes from a pedigree of mainly goods and excellents. You can look on k9data or ofa if you want. I have nothing to hide! And I doubt she'd have a problem either based on good breeding practices. 

Not sure where you're getting your information from but healthy dogs CAN be bred - it's not a matter of luck that a dog is healthy or not, it's ethics.

IF (and that's a big if) they do in fact have their clearances, why are they not posted on the website? Most ethical breeders do post that information so there's no question. Or they put it on k9data and ofa. The only reason not to put it up there really is because it's not done or the dogs didn't pass. 

Lana




Goldenfairy said:


> You are specifically saying they arent reputable and you dont even know them or anything about them but a couple pictures you saw and the info on this thread? How on earth can you say such mean things about someones dogs who you dont even know anything about? if you want to debate then debate the facts. Your dogs have just as much of a chance to have this as theirs do! The affliction is totally speculative and cannont be proven unless its in its most extreme stage so there is no way to say thier dogs have it or not. When one of thier dogs has it for real then you can talk. You are saying thier dogs arent good becuase they MIGHT get it!! Might is not enough to hurt someone like this. White oak hasnt even come on here to defend themselves because you freaks are like a pack of wolves! They have OFA clearance and you guys are just looking at K9 Data info. Im betting that there will be a lot of people coming on to defend white oak since you guys want to try and hurt them so badly now.


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## Pointgold

Goldenfairy said:


> Just to be clear, RAGTYME the person who made this thread TRIED TO BUY A DOG FROM WHITE OAK!!!! HELLOOOOOOOOOO!!! Are you guys in there???!!! ragtyme just caused this trouble because white oak refused to sell to them. They wanted the dogs, thought the dogs were great, and obviously wanted to breed one of the dogs themselves in their area. White oak doesnt sell to breeders and ragtyme threw a fit about it. So ragtyme needs to zip her lyin lip!!! White oak goldens have OFA documentation and ragtyme just pulled bogus unconfirmed info from K9 Data to try to hurt them. Its just not true. The topic is valid but these breeders are not guilty of the things you are saying. You guys are all so passionate but with no facts to go on. Thats just silly to me.


KP Database entries were MADE BY THE COMERS. Why would THEY put "bogus, unconfirmed information" on there ABOUT THEIR OWN DOGS?


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## Pointgold

Dyplastic ratings on more the one of the dogs that White Oaks continues to use for breeding were mysteriously removed from K9, and the OFA site. No getting around it.


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## ragtym

Goldenfairy said:


> The person who made the thread ( ragtyme) never bought a dog. They were turned down because white oak doesnt sell to breeders for obvious reasons. Thats what started this. Because they wouldnt sell her a dog she wants to hurt them now. She threw a tantrem about it on the phone and started all this after that. Hard to say thier dogs arent healthy and back up the person who made this thread when they tried to buy one!! OMG LOL!! Then the other person who said thier dog had it was also not even a customer of white oak. He was obviously just trying to validate the hurtful claims of ragtyme and was probably her friend!! Hello! You guys arent the smartest peanuts in the turd huh?? Believe everything you read I guess even if its just a post on a message board? Shame shame shame


*snort* Geez, you owe me a new keyboard - I just laughed so hard that soda came out of my nose.

I have NEVER and would NEVER contact this *greeder* for one of their dogs. I have no interest in them whatsoever except to let people know that their breeding practices are questionable at best. I saw the OFA results with my own eyes, and have an email from the OFA stating that the reason that they were removed from the OFA database was that "Per the attending veterinarian the uneducated owner unintentionally initialed the box to released all test results".

Gee, I might just have to sue White Oak for slandering MY name by stating that I wanted one of their dogs when nothing could be further from the truth. So White Oak, prove that it was ME that contacted you or you might be hearing from MY lawyer.


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## ragtym

Pointgold said:


> KP Database entries were MADE BY THE COMERS. Why would THEY put "bogus, unconfirmed information" on there ABOUT THEIR OWN DOGS?


Actually, I entered the OFA information when I saw it on the OFA website. I included the rating and the date that the rating was given. White Oak deleted the information from the records. I added it back until I saw that it was no longer listed on the OFA website only because the owner of K9data asks that only verifiable (as in posted) information be added. All of this can be seen in the change history of the dogs in question.

So, White Oak/GoldenFairy, I didn't GET the information from k9data, I PUT it there.

Let me state again in case you missed it - I NEVER have and NEVER would contact this *greeder* and if you are saying otherwise, you are LYING. Prove it or shut up about it.


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## Pointgold

ragtym said:


> Actually, I entered the OFA information when I saw it on the OFA website. I included the rating and the date that the rating was given. White Oak deleted the information from the records. I added it back until I saw that it was no longer listed on the OFA website only because the owner of K9data asks that only verifiable (as in posted) information be added. All of this can be seen in the change history of the dogs in question.
> 
> So, White Oak/GoldenFairy, I didn't GET the information from k9data, I PUT it there.
> 
> Let me state again in case you missed it - I NEVER have and NEVER would contact this *greeder* and if you are saying otherwise, you are LYING. Prove it or shut up about it.


 
But, the Comers entered their dogs pedigrees into K9, correct?


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## ragtym

Pointgold said:


> But, the Comers entered their dogs pedigrees into K9, correct?


Yes, that was all them.


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## Pointgold

Goldenfairy said:


> 25% of all goldens no matter what the pedigree will have this. There is no way to prove your dogs dont have it. So what goldens are so great that these dont stand up to??? Same with the goldens I see in all your photos and same with everyone elses. Youre not vets and none of you know what the heck you are talking about. If we sent an xray in of your dogs you might get the same result. This defect is so common and so speculative to begin with there is no way to even say if thier dogs have it or not!!QUOTE]
> 
> Please post your source for the statement that 25% of all Goldens, no matter what the pedigree, will have this (dyplasia).
> You have suggest that _we _do our research, I might suggest that _you _do yours...There is in fact a way to prove that a dog isn't dysplastic - a simple radiograph will do the trick. The same one that will show that a dog _is _dysplastic. I am not a vet, but was a LVT for many years. And, as an involved breeder/exhibitor and longtime GRCA member, as well as being reasonably intelligent and able to read, I do know what the heck I am talking about, as would anyone who can read and access the OFA, the parent club, the AKC, or any number of resources regarding canine orthopaedics. The OFA, which you are claiming that the wonderful White Oak Kennel has records for all their dogs with, rates and certifies hips, as well as elbows, by reading radiographs. Yet, even though you claim White Oak has these clearances, out of the other side of your mouth you say that there is no way to even say if a dog has dysplasia or not.
> 
> What does this mean - "If we sent an xray in of your dogs you might get the same result." ?


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## BeauShel

Goldenfairy, I dont know where you are getting your information but did you go back and read the beginning of the whole thread. And where two of the members got dogs from them (White Oak) and their dogs have had to have major surgeries on bad hips and elbows. And which the breeder offered no help at all to them by offering refunds like a reputable breeder would offer to do. And have you looked at the GRCA website to see what they tell you about quality breeders. All the things that the Golden Retriever Club of America states what a quality breeder should do is nothing that White Oak does. Clearances (hip, elbow, heart or eye) Showing, standing behind their dogs in health problems, etc..... http://www.grca.org/pdf/all_about/codeofethics.pdf

If you have a dog from them, I hope your dog is healthy and stays healthy. But as ragtym says they did not ever plan on getting a dog from them and how you got that idea, I dont know unless the breeder tried to feed that to you. And how would the breeder know who ragtym if you gave them their name from this thread, is as there is no name listed or where they are from here on the forum.


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## ragtym

Hmm...suddenly the 3 dogs in question have (AKC, OFA) after their names on the website even though yesterday it only said (AKC).


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## vixen

I still just see word no evedence of clearance's.

and I'm over 2000 miles away.


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## tippykayak

Goldenfairy said:


> 25% of all goldens no matter what the pedigree will have this.


If you mean hip dysplasia, then you're wrong. Multigenerational clearances cut the likelihood of it way, way down. The reason so many GRs still get it (not sure where you're getting the 25% stat) is that breeders don't take advantage of this powerful tool. If all GRs were bred only on strong clearance data, HD would be cut way, way down.




Goldenfairy said:


> There is no way to prove your dogs dont have it. So what goldens are so great that these dont stand up to???


Yes, there is. It's called a hip clearance. Your vet takes x-rays in a special position and mails them off to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals or PennHIP, and they rate the hips. That's what we've been discussing in this thread.




Goldenfairy said:


> Not to mention you are getting what little info you have from K9 data stats that are well known to be totally inaccurate and not up to date. Do your research. White Oak Goldens have a couple of good dogs and a nice website. Why are you attacking them with no proof? These people are obviously not as bad as you are making them out to be. Thats all Im saying.


offa.org tends to be accurate and up to date if the breeder has actually gotten the clearances and filled out the paperwork. Occasionally, a good breeder might not have the most recent CERF listed or a heart clearance on a young dog because she hasn't gotten around to it yet. You don't typically see a totally blank entry if the dog has all four clearances.

All you have to do is type in the name of the dog or the AKC number and you can see if the dog has clearances. I've checked offa.org on a few White Oak dogs, and I haven't been able to find anything at all.


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## Ljilly28

Goldenfairy said:


> 25% of all goldens no matter what the pedigree will have this. There is no way to prove your dogs dont have it. So what goldens are so great that these dont stand up to??? Same with the goldens I see in all your photos and same with everyone elses. Youre not vets and none of you know what the heck you are talking about. If we sent an xray in of your dogs you might get the same result.


This is wildly inaccurate. I am just a pet owner, but an active one, so all of our goldens(4 of them) are xrayed/radiographed to make sure they can do agility, hike, jump, etc without pain or risk of joint injury. At OFA several board certified orthopedic vets rate the xrays independently of one another. I can tell you for sure I have two hips goods, one hips excellent, and a puppy will have prelims done at 9 months. I have two elbows normal, and one who had surgery for bilateral elbow dysplasia, and the pup will have his elbows radiographed when his hips are done. These are not breeding dogs, but just my neutered pets. No breeder should have less info than pet owners about what their dogs' joints look like- and their dogs' relatives too.


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## tippykayak

Goldenfairy said:


> Your dogs have just as much of a chance to have this as theirs do! The affliction is totally speculative and cannont be proven unless its in its most extreme stage so there is no way to say thier dogs have it or not. When one of thier dogs has it for real then you can talk.


This is just plain old incorrect. HD can absolutely be seen on x-rays before there are symptoms, and the GRCA code of ethics prohibits the breeding of dogs who fail OFA ratings, even if they don't yet have symptoms.

My dogs have a far, far lower chance of developing HD than White Oak dogs because they have literally dozens of clearances in their pedigrees that demonstrate the low likelihood of the condition cropping up.


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## tippykayak

Goldenfairy said:


> Just to be clear, RAGTYME the person who made this thread TRIED TO BUY A DOG FROM WHITE OAK!!!! HELLOOOOOOOOOO!!! Are you guys in there???!!! ragtyme just caused this trouble because white oak refused to sell to them. They wanted the dogs, thought the dogs were great, and obviously wanted to breed one of the dogs themselves in their area. White oak doesnt sell to breeders and ragtyme threw a fit about it. So ragtyme needs to zip her lyin lip!!! White oak goldens have OFA documentation and ragtyme just pulled bogus unconfirmed info from K9 Data to try to hurt them. Its just not true. The topic is valid but these breeders are not guilty of the things you are saying. You guys are all so passionate but with no facts to go on. Thats just silly to me.


I have no idea if what you're saying about Ragtyme is correct (though she seems pretty sure that she never contacted White Oak to purchase a dog), but since you seem to have this information, your other statement that White Oak isn't defending themselves is clearly a lie. You either work there or are a close enough acquaintance that they tell you personal information about business contacts, so White Oak is clearly being represented by you in this thread.

Who cares if Ragtyme is 100% right about what she posted? If the clearances were pulled because they were unflattering, that's bad. If they were never there in the first place, that's bad too. Either way, the breeder fails to meet the GRCA's ethical guidelines. Even if you discount everything she said, the fact remains that White Oak breeds dogs without full clearances. Are you saying that they really do have all four minimum clearances on every breeding dog?

And if I were White Oak, I wouldn't want to come into this thread and admit my identity either, unless I was showing up with proof that all dogs were properly cleared.


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## tippykayak

Wow, they pulled all the k9data links on their dogs off the White Oak website.

They also removed all the registered names. I guess they don't want people looking up their dogs on k9data and offa.org?


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## Pointgold

What is it about puppy manufacturers like this and deleting information... GRM did it here. Now the most wonderful, clean, top-notch, professional White Oak does it to prevent potential buyers from finding information that would help them make the right decisions when considering purchasing a puppy from them - that is, if they know what more and more average "consumers" are learning from sound information such as is regularly posted here, or, if possessing of basic reading skills can be found pretty easily on any number of internet sites, books, or magazines.


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## timberwolf

I'm going to make an educated guess and say that I don't think we'll be hearing from goldenfairy or surfqueen again.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I haven't looked at their web site, but hopefully people looking for puppies will learn to look for those dogs with information in K9data as a first step in making a decision. If there is no information on K9data, then hopefully they will dig deeper.


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## Pointgold

Posting information that is vitally important to help educate potential puppy buyers is a double edged sword for me - less than ethical puppy manufacturers are able to use that information and post it to their sales sites, appearing to be reputable and responsible. (I've seen text that has been lifted, word for word from other sites and organizations, posted as their own on many of these sites...). My committment to help educate the buyer outweighs my distaste for the manufacturers who exploit the information to "legitimize" themselves...Many potential buyers see what they have been told to look for and assume that since it's there, these are reputable breeders and will buy from them. If there is one thing that I can impress on potential buyers, that is to VERIFY INFORMATION such as clearances, registrations, titles, etc and demand to see actual, _original _hard copies, AND find them on the appropriate databases. If you do not know how to do this, ask someone who does to help you - it takes only a very few minutes.


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## ragtym

Here, I'll help:

"British Cream" dogs on their site:

Diesel - Kalocsahazi Itt-Ott
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=258597
http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1265401#animal

Sampson - Sampson Of White Oaks*
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295951
No records listed in OFA or CERF

Crystal - Crystal Belle Of White Oaks*
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295956
No records listed in OFA or CERF

Sugar - Sugar Baby Of White Oaks*
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=295955
No records listed in OFA or CERF

Dolly - Darling Dolly Of White Oaks
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=367503
No records listed in OFA or CERF

Tootie - Rudy Tootie Of White Oaks
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=367505
No records listed in OFA or CERF

Mercy - Mercy Of White Knights
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=258602
http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1320541#animal
No listing in CERF

Nell - Almost Heaven Crystal Nell
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=258603
http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1301528#animal
No record listed in CERF

*these three are the ones with questionable OFA records

"Red" or "American" dogs on their site:

Deets - Comer's Copper Jake Of White Oaks
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=388128

Jake - Comer's Copper Jake
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=258610
No record listed in OFA or CERF

Ruby - Ruby Doobie Doo III
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=258624
No record listed in OFA or CERF

Holly - Penny's Holly Girl
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=258629
No record listed in OFA or CERF

Berry - Penny's Berry Girl
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=258627
http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1378244#animal
No record listed in CERF

Cassie (listed on their Available Goldens page) - Depot Baby
http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=377684
No record listed in OFA or CERF


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## tippykayak

surfqueen said:


> ...so you're not a breeder....have you bothered to speak to people who have purchased animals from White Oak? What makes you an authority on this subject, and what's your point? Any potential buyers are free to visit the farm, see the puppies, play with the parents.......if you have children...did the docs and hosp. assure you that your kids would go through life free of disease and never get sick??? Perhaps put this much energy into world peace, or cleaning up the environment...life's short!


Well, two people who have purchased animals from White Oak responded earlier in this thread about problems with dysplasia. So yeah, we do have personal testimonials from individuals who have purchased unhealthy dogs and who have been lied to by the breeder.

I don't have to be an authority on the subject (though I do have plenty of experience). All I have to do is compare the GRCA code of ethics with the publicly verifiable information on the breeder. It's not rocket science.

The GRCA code of ethics says to do clearances on hearts, eyes, hips, and elbows because they cut down on suffering and heartache in the lives of dogs and owners. This breeder doesn't do all of them and may even have hidden unflattering results on some dogs. Open and shut case.

I should put my energy into world peace instead of protecting dogs from suffering? I think protecting dogs is a darn good cause. I could, of course, turn the argument around on you. What good are you accomplishing in coming on here and defending this breeder? You're just defending the right of an individual to deceive puppy buyers and fail to live up to basic ethical requirements.

This is not about guaranteeing that puppies will never get sick. It's about providing puppies with whatever protection you can, and the protection provided by proper multigenerational clearances is straightforward, cost-effective, and proven to reduce the incidence of health problems. It's a no brainer, and you are on the wrong side of this fight.


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## tippykayak

ragtym said:


> Here, I'll help:


Thanks for doing the homework. It's not that there are no clearances. It's just that no dog has complete clearances, and most have none (or failed and were not posted).


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## Lilliam

I just feel sorry for those dogs. Especially the one named Cassie - of course that one would tug at my heart. Her whole body language just screams out fear.


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## MGMF

To those who are fighting for White Oak, Before you stand by them with the claim they have done nothing wrong offer them help to make sure their K9data records are correct and honest. List all their OFA clearances. If they have nothing to hide then use these tools to show off the good dogs you claim they have. The only thing is these records needs to be supported by OFA (which never lies). For this breeder to recover their reputation they will need to send ALL their records for hips, elbows, hearts and eyes to OFA for a listing. When they can do that and remove the nonsence listing of color discriptions from their web maybe there will be something for you to defend. To me there is something to hide when you can't even list the AKC registered name on the website. For now all we know is they are dishonest saying they have special colored, foreign AKC registered, cleared, healthy dogs. So before you preach go make sure their ducks are in order.


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## nixietink

tippykayak said:


> Wow, they pulled all the k9data links on their dogs off the White Oak website.
> 
> They also removed all the registered names. I guess they don't want people looking up their dogs on k9data and offa.org?


WOW, that is awful. All I can say is that I really hope that someone sees this thread before they purchase a dog from there. At least it is all out in the open to see.

Ragtym, thank you for all the info!!


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## tippykayak

Anybody know why Comer's Copper Jake has an AKC number with a / in it? It's AKC SN760501/02. Is that a proper number?

If you search on offa.org for either the whole number or for just SN760501 and SN760502, no results come back.

Edited to add: I was wrong. If you enter it as SN76050102 on offa.org, you get no listing for the dog himself, but you can see one of his offspring has fair prelims.


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## GoldenSail

Pointgold said:


> Posting information that is vitally important to help educate potential puppy buyers is a double edged sword for me - less than ethical puppy manufacturers are able to use that information and post it to their sales sites, appearing to be reputable and responsible. (I've seen text that has been lifted, word for word from other sites and organizations, posted as their own on many of these sites...)


Yes, but you know the other cool thing? It seems these threads pop up into the top five links when you do a Google search of these breeders. This thread is the second link when I google 'White Oak Golden Retrievers'


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## Pointgold

SN760501/02 is the number off the individual registration prior to it being sent to AKC. The dog is currently registered with the AKC as SN76050102 (no slash).


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## SweetSophie

Goldenfairy said:


> Also Ive contacted white oak to help them and they have official OFA records to show thier dogs dont even have this!! This thread and all this stuff is based on K9 Data records who everyone knows is not accurate and not up to date LOL. They even sent me an email from K9 Data showing me how the person told them even though the OFA removed thier dogs that they couldnt and wouldnt remove the info from thier list!!! The info you are basing all this on and hurting this person and dissing everything they have put thier life into is not even true!!!! The person who made the thread ( ragtyme) never bought a dog. They were turned down because white oak doesnt sell to breeders for obvious reasons. Thats what started this. Because they wouldnt sell her a dog she wants to hurt them now. She threw a tantrem about it on the phone and started all this after that. Hard to say thier dogs arent healthy and back up the person who made this thread when they tried to buy one!! OMG LOL!! Then the other person who said thier dog had it was also not even a customer of white oak. He was obviously just trying to validate the hurtful claims of ragtyme and was probably her friend!! Hello! You guys arent the smartest peanuts in the turd huh?? Believe everything you read I guess even if its just a post on a message board? Shame shame shame


This post made me very upset. I can only speak for our family but our puppy from White Oak was diagnosed with severe elbow and hip dysplasia at six months old. On the advice of our vet and several orthopedic veterinary specialists I informed White Oak in writing of our puppy's condition and conveyed that our dog's medical specialists said they should no longer breed in good conscience our dog's parents or any in their line without getting full clearances. I have thousands of dollars in medical bills, xrays and akc papers indicating where our puppy came from and detailing her condition. I don't wish harm on the breeder, and they seem like very nice people who said all the right things. I thought I had done extensive research to find a good breeder and the best chance for a healthy puppy and yet my White Oak golden retriever puppy has Elbow and hip dysplasia. Yes, it can happen. I am hopeful that White Oak will take the necessary steps to reduce it from happening in the future.


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## Goldenfairy

Two different vets could take a look at the same xrays and give 2 different opinions. The affliction itself is totally speculative in terms of who is giving the diagnosis until it totally manifests itself. Thats a fact. If you had a diagnosis of your health wouldnt you get a second opinion when you had abolutely no signs of the affliction. None of the puppies have had this from white oak. The person saying they got a dog from them did not and they are full of it. Have them post their proof they bought a dog from them?? White oak cant prove ragtyme contacted them about a dog because she called on the phone and got shot down in one sinlge conversation. There is no proof but it did happen. How did she even know about white oak or anything about thier dogs if she never looked at them and how do they know her name and her kennels name and everything else and why is she so hupped up about a breeder you guys say is a nobody?? Also california is basically the epicenter of bad breeding. Ragtyme was trying to bring white oaks good line into the swamp of dogs out in california. Good thing they dont need the money. Ragtyme is stuck trolling the net looking for more dogs to pump out.


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## Mssjnnfer

Goldenfairy said:


> Two different vets could take a look at the same xrays and give 2 different opinions. The affliction itself is totally speculative in terms of who is giving the diagnosis until it totally manifests itself. Thats a fact. If you had a diagnosis of your health wouldnt you get a second opinion when you had abolutely no signs of the affliction. None of the puppies have had this from white oak. The person saying they got a dog from them did not and they are full of it. Have them post their proof they bought a dog from them?? White oak cant prove ragtyme contacted them about a dog because she called on the phone and got shot down in one sinlge conversation. There is no proof but it did happen. How did she even know about white oak or anything about thier dogs if she never looked at them and how do they know her name and her kennels name and everything else and why is she so hupped up about a breeder you guys say is a nobody?? Also california is basically the epicenter of bad breeding. Ragtyme was trying to bring white oaks good line into the swamp of dogs out in california. Good thing they dont need the money. Ragtyme is stuck trolling the net looking for more dogs to pump out.


This is probably one of the funniest things I have read in a long time. I love the part about "trolling the net"... You would know, wouldn't you, Fairy?


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## nixietink

Goldenfairy said:


> Two different vets could take a look at the same xrays and give 2 different opinions. The affliction itself is totally speculative in terms of who is giving the diagnosis until it totally manifests itself. Thats a fact. If you had a diagnosis of your health wouldnt you get a second opinion when you had abolutely no signs of the affliction. None of the puppies have had this from white oak. The person saying they got a dog from them did not and they are full of it. Have them post their proof they bought a dog from them?? White oak cant prove ragtyme contacted them about a dog because she called on the phone and got shot down in one sinlge conversation. There is no proof but it did happen. How did she even know about white oak or anything about thier dogs if she never looked at them and how do they know her name and her kennels name and everything else and why is she so hupped up about a breeder you guys say is a nobody?? Also california is basically the epicenter of bad breeding. Ragtyme was trying to bring white oaks good line into the swamp of dogs out in california. Good thing they dont need the money. Ragtyme is stuck trolling the net looking for more dogs to pump out.


LOL!!!!!! :lol::lol: You do realize that you really aren't making any sense, right?

Thank you for the laugh, seriously. I'm going to hang out with my "swamp dog" from California now!!


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## Goldenfairy

Its also a fact well known that a percentage of these dogs get this just through thier normal lives. You guys are not experts. Far far from it. You are just some little dog owners and breeders of the most common dog in the world, that think your dogs are the best and want to diss anyone who says thier dogs are good too. Its pretty obvious that the people running this message board and the 3 other shut-in freaks are the only people on here! LOL This is probably the most action this site has ever had! LOL This forum is a trash and bash forum and has no value to anyone. Its meant to hurt golden breeders not in your little click and to toot your know-it-all horns by giving bad adivice to poor people who happen upon it looking for help with something. I got on here to defend white oak becuase you are specifically targeting them and NOBODY else on something you dont have any proof of. When white oak gets the documentation posted to prove that thier dogs are not at risk, will you appologize and help pick them back up from the gutter you threw them in online? I dont think so. All you want is to hurt someone. Also hate to break it to you guys but there are 3 of you, there about 100 of us talking about this on other boards and every every every single one, on multiple message boards including totally unrelated replies, say you guys are just jealous becuase they get more money for thier dogs. You have all said it several times in your posts even. Thats whats eating you up. We paid a lot of money for one of thier dogs becuase they look better than your dogs. You guys all just have bloodlines that have been bounced around from breeder to breeder thats why they all look like CONEHEADS LOL Ragtyme tried to buy a puppy from white oak to breed and sell herself because they are beautiful!!! Selling your cheap dogs for 300 bucks to any loser who thinks they want a puppy makes you guys the greeders. White oak provides limited litters at a cost your BROURTS (inside joke) could never bring. I think its just great they get so much for thier dogs. Ive helped 41,000 breeders, rescues, shelters and vets in all 50 states and around the world. Most of you would probably be embarrassed to know who you are trashing if you knew who I was. My dogs are everywhere from the the White House to the Tower of London and I flush pieces of crap like you down the toilet. You wont convince me that white oak is so terrible from what Ive seen. I back them 100% and its gonna get out in a hurry on this board and the others that you guys are trash. Im done, no need to come back to this forum for me. Ill put the word out to help white oak and you guys can pound sand some more with other people.


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## nixietink

Goldenfairy said:


> Its also a fact well known that a percentage of these dogs get this just through thier normal lives. You guys are not experts. Far far from it. You are just some little dog owners and breeders of the most common dog in the world, that think your dogs are the best and want to diss anyone who says thier dogs are good too. Its pretty obvious that the people running this message board and the 3 other shut-in freaks are the only people on here! LOL This is probably the most action this site has ever had! LOL This forum is a trash and bash forum and has no value to anyone. Its meant to hurt golden breeders not in your little click and to toot your know-it-all horns by giving bad adivice to poor people who happen upon it looking for help with something. I got on here to defend white oak becuase you are specifically targeting them and NOBODY else on something you dont have any proof of. When white oak gets the documentation posted to prove that thier dogs are not at risk, will you appologize and help pick them back up from the gutter you threw them in online? I dont think so. All you want is to hurt someone. Also hate to break it to you guys but there are 3 of you, there about 100 of us talking about this on other boards and every every every single one, on multiple message boards including totally unrelated replies, say you guys are just jealous becuase they get more money for thier dogs. You have all said it several times in your posts even. Thats whats eating you up. We paid a lot of money for one of thier dogs becuase they look better than your dogs. You guys all just have bloodlines that have been bounced around from breeder to breeder thats why they all look like CONEHEADS LOL Ragtyme tried to buy a puppy from white oak to breed and sell herself because they are beautiful!!! Selling your cheap dogs for 300 bucks to any loser who thinks they want a puppy makes you guys the greeders. White oak provides limited litters at a cost your BROURTS (inside joke) could never bring. I think its just great they get so much for thier dogs. Ive helped 41,000 breeders, rescues, shelters and vets in all 50 states and around the world. Most of you would probably be embarrassed to know who you are trashing if you knew who I was. My dogs are everywhere from the the White House to the Tower of London and I flush pieces of crap like you down the toilet. You wont convince me that white oak is so terrible from what Ive seen. I back them 100% and its gonna get out in a hurry on this board and the others that you guys are trash. *Im done, no need to come back to this forum for me*. Ill put the word out to help white oak and you guys can pound sand some more with other people.



Bye!!!! :wavey:


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## Mssjnnfer

Goldenfairy said:


> Its also a fact well known that a percentage of these dogs get this just through thier normal lives. You guys are not experts. Far far from it. You are just some little dog owners and breeders of the most common dog in the world, that think your dogs are the best and want to diss anyone who says thier dogs are good too. Its pretty obvious that the people running this message board and the 3 other shut-in freaks are the only people on here! LOL This is probably the most action this site has ever had! LOL This forum is a trash and bash forum and has no value to anyone. Its meant to hurt golden breeders not in your little click and to toot your know-it-all horns by giving bad adivice to poor people who happen upon it looking for help with something. I got on here to defend white oak becuase you are specifically targeting them and NOBODY else on something you dont have any proof of. When white oak gets the documentation posted to prove that thier dogs are not at risk, will you appologize and help pick them back up from the gutter you threw them in online? I dont think so. All you want is to hurt someone. Also hate to break it to you guys but there are 3 of you, there about 100 of us talking about this on other boards and every every every single one, on multiple message boards including totally unrelated replies, say you guys are just jealous becuase they get more money for thier dogs. You have all said it several times in your posts even. Thats whats eating you up. We paid a lot of money for one of thier dogs becuase they look better than your dogs. You guys all just have bloodlines that have been bounced around from breeder to breeder thats why they all look like CONEHEADS LOL Ragtyme tried to buy a puppy from white oak to breed and sell herself because they are beautiful!!! Selling your cheap dogs for 300 bucks to any loser who thinks they want a puppy makes you guys the greeders. White oak provides limited litters at a cost your BROURTS (inside joke) could never bring. I think its just great they get so much for thier dogs. Ive helped 41,000 breeders, rescues, shelters and vets in all 50 states and around the world. Most of you would probably be embarrassed to know who you are trashing if you knew who I was. My dogs are everywhere from the the White House to the Tower of London and I flush pieces of crap like you down the toilet. You wont convince me that white oak is so terrible from what Ive seen. I back them 100% and its gonna get out in a hurry on this board and the others that you guys are trash. Im done, no need to come back to this forum for me. Ill put the word out to help white oak and you guys can pound sand some more with other people.


Do you know the definition of the word "fact"... Just... just wondering.

Who are you, then? Let us all know who's flushing us down the toilet. But please... in future posts... use paragraphs and sentences. It makes it a little easier to read the nonsense you're posting. 

Thanks. 
- One of the three people that post here.


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## DNL2448

Goldenfairy said:


> Two different vets could take a look at the same xrays and give 2 different opinions. The affliction itself is totally speculative in terms of who is giving the diagnosis until it totally manifests itself. Thats a fact. If you had a diagnosis of your health wouldnt you get a second opinion when you had abolutely no signs of the affliction. None of the puppies have had this from white oak. The person saying they got a dog from them did not and they are full of it. Have them post their proof they bought a dog from them?? White oak cant prove ragtyme contacted them about a dog because she called on the phone and got shot down in one sinlge conversation. There is no proof but it did happen. How did she even know about white oak or anything about thier dogs if she never looked at them and how do they know her name and her kennels name and everything else and why is she so hupped up about a breeder you guys say is a nobody?? Also california is basically the epicenter of bad breeding. Ragtyme was trying to bring white oaks good line into the swamp of dogs out in california. Good thing they dont need the money. Ragtyme is stuck trolling the net looking for more dogs to pump out.


Seriously, I think it's time for you to give it up. You are not doing yourself any favors. Before posting again, I would do a little more research, and get your medical facts straight. I'm just saying. :doh:


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## tippykayak

Goldenfairy said:


> Two different vets could take a look at the same xrays and give 2 different opinions. The affliction itself is totally speculative in terms of who is giving the diagnosis until it totally manifests itself. Thats a fact.


So you're essentially saying that the OFA and PennHIP are totally bogus, and the GRCA is completely wrong to require ratings from one of these two organizations? That's an ambitious claim, and it's totally erroneous.

There's nothing speculative about dysplasia. There's dysplasia in the joint, and then there's the symptoms. Yes, you can have observable dysplasia in the joint without seeing symptoms, especially when the dog is younger, but that doesn't make the condition a myth. You seem to have confused a small margin of error in prediction with an inability to predict at all. That's poor logic. In reality, the x-rays are extremely accurate in predicting future crippling, debilitating conditions, and in predicting which dogs will pass those conditions down to their offspring.

None of your personal attacks against individuals change the fact that what you're claiming about dogs' joints is completely false. I understand that White Oak (and therefore you) have a financial interest in claiming that OFA ratings are nonsense, since apparently some of their breeding dogs failed their ratings. That doesn't make you right.

There's an enormous amount of scientific evidence that OFA and PennHIP can identify dysplasia in the joints and predict symptomatic dysplasia with incredible accuracy. The GRCA did not add these clearances to the ethical code without giving it serious consideration. For you to claim that dysplasia isn't a problem we can control or that it can't be predicted is utterly irresponsible and unethical. What on earth would lead you to do this, unless you work for White Oak?


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## WLR

surfqueen said:


> Wrong!!!!..We purchased a great dog from White Oak breeders. They do have records, x-rays for medical clearance of hip problems, and the parents of all litters are on site to see the physicality of their dogs. Sounds more like a disgruntled breeder is trying to malign a VERY REPUTABLE one that runs a first class operation with the utmost concern for their puppies.


=======================================================
You haven't understood the previous posts then....


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## Rob's GRs

I think it is time to close this thread as it is turning too confrontational. 
I am sure most of us [the board owners and the other 3 members  ]reading this can take away some good information needed to form an opinion about certain breeding practices used by some.


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