# OTC Treatment for Mange?



## Megora

I know that your vet wants to wait before starting the treatment (ivermectim, right?), but ask if there is a shampoo you can use. 

Demodectic Mange

I googled around and found this link. I have no idea if the solutions there to stop the itching work...


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## Sally's Mom

You have to be very careful in treating any dog with Aussie in it with ivermectin at extralabel dosages.... you can treat sarcoptic mange with Lym Sulfur dip. Demodex is treated totally differently with Mitaban dips. When using ivermectin, for sarcoptic mange, it is weekly. With demodex it is daily treatment. However, the general rule of thumb is if it has white feet, don't treat(with ivermctin). We don't do the extralabel ivermectin in collie, shelties, aussies, OES, etc.


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## IowaGold

You can get (and I would recommend getting) a test for the defective gene that makes higher doses of ivermectin unsafe for some herding dogs. I guess I'm not sure why you would need to wait, I've not ever heard that.


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## mylissyk

Waiting will only let the infection spread. Please have a skin scrape done now to find out what type of mange it is. 

Promeris has been used to treat both types, and Revolution can be used to treat sarcoptic mange. 

But please have your vet do the skin scrape now, and discuss using one of the topicals to treat it. I don't know if either of these is ok for herding breeds or not but it would be worth discussing it.


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## Debles

I can't believe the vet wouldn't do some kind of treatment now!!
I'd get a 2nd opinion or ask him again.


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## glnbrgold

I'm assuming based on the age of your puppy that he has demodetic and not sarcoptic mange. Many times the puppies will outgrow this as their immune system catches up with their rapid growth spurts, which is probably why your Vet is recommending that you wait.​ 
I had a puppy with this last year and was just too uncomfortable waiting. I treated successfully with Benzyl Peroxide baths, but I can't remember how often - maybe every other day?? and a Preventic collar which contains the active ingredient of Amitraz. Amitraz is the same as the active ingredient in the Mitaban dips. However, I would still do this in collaboration with my Vet's advice. As I said, this worked well but I will never know for sure if the puppy would have outgrown it given time. 

Preventic collars can't be worn while swimming or if wet. You also need to be cautious with other dogs who may play with and put their mouths on the collar. 

I would not use Ivermectin on an Aussie mix without VERY close Veterinarian supervision.


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## turtle66

Lilly had mange as a puppy, too.
Supposedly it is a typical disease for an non mature immune status.
So I tried to support her with OTC for her immune system. I bought NK 9 (just google it) with mushroom extract. She outgrow it - NK 9 worked or helped, who knows....We never had to treat her with ivermectin, but she had it just mild. I do agree with what has been said, if this is spreading, you probably really want to have a second opinion on this.

Heike


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## Dexell1827

Thanks, all! I'll call my vet again and ask that they see Ollie tomorrow, and if they won't I'll look for another vet.

The reason I was given for the wait was that the products they use to treat the different types of mange are not recommended for puppies as young as Ollie, as they have not been proven safe.


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## fostermom

Poor pup!

Jasper had demodex when he came in as a foster puppy, but the vet didn't do a scraping and gave me some antibiotic ointment on it and said it was just a skin infection. Within a week of my signing his adoption papers, the spots started growing so my own vet did a skin scraping which was positive for demodex. My vet gave me the mitaban and I dipped him myself at home. It was very stressful for him, but less stressful than his being at the vet's office. Once it was gone, it never came back, thank goodness.

My vet did warn me to only use steroids with him on emergency basis only. They suppress the immune system and can lower it enough for the demodex to flare up.


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## Dexell1827

I went to the vet's office on my lunch break and stood at the counter until they gave me an appointment.  They couldn't squeeze him in tomorrow, but he'll be there bright and early Saturday morning.

What should I expect at the appointment? I know a few of you mentioned a skin scraping...what does that involve?


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## West

Skin scraping is quick and not painful, but a bit uncomfortable. They basically scrape the skin with a scalpel or blade but just a bit. it might bleed a tiny bit. They do so because the parasite that causes mange lives just under the skin. Then, they look at the scrapings through a microscope to determine if it's really mange and what kind.

Ivermectin shouldn't be used on any Collie or Old English Shepherd, including Aussies. Due to a defective gene that these breeds often carry, it can be seriously harmful and even cause brain damage or death. 

But there are special shampoos or products with which you dip the puppy's skin that should be safe for such a young pup. I am not familiar with the brand names in the US, here we call it Azadieno. I have used it in pups at 8+ weeks, and usually after three weekly baths they were completely cured.

I agree with not waiting, as the mange will only spread more if you do. And you should carefully wash crates, blankets, dog beds and everything that was in contact with the pup. Ask the vet for specific cleaning products!


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## glnbrgold

I do think you need to be careful with medications containing Amitraz and young puppies. The dip (Mitaban) is only recommended for puppies greater then 4 months. 

Promaris is a topical flea and tick preventative that also contains Amitraz and is what my Vet originally recommended for Kobe. Promaris reportedly can be used on younger puppies, however when I read all the side effects and problems reported I declined to try it - well, actually I returned it Production of Promaris has now been halted, though you can continue to buy the medication through this fall. Do a google search, read up on it and be informed when you walk into see your Vet on Saturday. 

I choose to go with the Preventic collar since even though the medication is absorbed systemically I figured I could always remove it if necessary and limit the dosage in the long term. However, I do think the Benzyl Peroxide shampoo in conjuction with the collar was an important part of this treatment regimin. The preventic collar was not something my Vet recommended, I came up with this myself after a lot of discussion wtih other people who had experienced the same problem. I don't know if this is a standard treatment protocol or not, but it is certainly worth talking to your Vet about. 

Good Luck and let us know what happens on Saturday.


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## coppers-mom

My vet recommended I use Revolution on my cat who has some undetermined problem causing him to lose his hair between his legs - they "think" it might be skin mites and we aren't skin scraping there!:doh:

I put Revolution on him a couple of weeks ago and he seems to be improving. It will be a little while longer before I am sure though. I also don't know how safe it would be for a pup that young or an aussie mix.

He is a cutie though and I hope they get fixed up quickly!


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## glnbrgold

Revolution is a good treatment for sarcoptic mange, but not demodectic mange. This is a geat example of why a skin scrapping and accurate diagnosis is important in determining the correct treatment.


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## Dexell1827

Here's a pic of Ollie, taken tonight. Poor quality shot (black dog & low light make for poor pictures), but it does show most of his hair loss:


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## turtle66

ohhh - he is very cute!!!
Thanks for sharing,

Heike


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## Dexell1827

We were at the vet first thing this morning, and after a half-hearted effort at getting a skin scraping from a wiggling Ollie, the vet said they'd have to put him under general anesthesia to get a scraping without cutting him. I expressed my reluctance to have Ollie put under at such a young age , but the vet was adamant that it needed to be done. So I had to leave him there, and they'll call me when they're done. And of course my mind is racing with horrible thoughts of everything that could go wrong. :no:


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## turtle66

Is he done? How did it go?
Is it common to do skin skraping under general anesthesia?


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## fostermom

I think I'd consider changing vets. They really shouldn't have to put a puppy under general to get a skin scraping!

Let us know how it goes.


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## Dexell1827

We're back. I had to wait an hour because I insisted on speaking with the vet instead of just the vet tech.

Ollie has demodectic mange, which was what I was expecting the diagnosis to be. I'm ticked at my vet, though. I questioned him about the necessity of using the general anesthesia to do the skin scraping, and he said that since Ollie was so poorly socialized and couldn't hold still for the scraping, that general anesthesia was necessary to avoid cutting him. He then proceeded to give me a lecture on making sure my puppy was well socialized so he could be handled easily. I looked him in the eye and said "You do realize he is only 10 weeks old, has not completed his series of shots, and parvo is a BIG concern in our area, right? Are you telling me I should take my puppy to places where I can't guarantee no unimmunized dogs have been? And I challenge you to find ANY 10-week-old puppy who doesn't turn into a wiggling ball of fur when new people are near." He looked kinda flustered and said "Well, yes, but..." and went on to discuss treatment. He told me he wants Ollie on a 1% solution of ivermiticide for six weeks. I reminded him that Ollie is part Aussie and questioned whether that was the best treatment. He brushed aside my concerns but did say that if I was worried about it, we could gradually increase the dosage to the treatable level to more easily manage any possible side effects. He then revised the instructions, and Ollie is to get 0.1cc of the solution tomorrow, and step up 0.1cc each day until the treatment level of 0.55cc is reached. He'll be on that dose for 6-8 weeks.

So what should I do? Assuming he tolerates the ivermiticide well and we treat for the 6-8 weeks recommended, will that interfere with the booster shots he needs at 12 & 16 weeks? And what about his rabies at 16 weeks?

Ugh, my poor puppy!


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## West

I don't really like your vet right now, sorry :S
As I said, it is risky to give Ivermectine or its derivates to dogs wich are full or part Collies, Old English Shepherds or Aussies. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the treatment he recommended. I'd ask for a second opinion. I mean, hopefully Ollie doesn't carry the defective gene, but what if he does? The consequences can be terrible. And general anesthesia for skin scraping was really uncalled for, specially on such a young pup! 
Recently I took a foster I had to the vet for a skin scraping. It lasted for less than a minute and no anesthesia whatsoever was needed. I'd say that a vet should be able to handle a pup during a skin scraping.
Sorry I'm being overly critical of this vet, but I have worked as a vet tech for years and I don't agree with the way he's been handling this situation.


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## glnbrgold

Time to find a new Vet. Just my opinion of course. 

I can't tolerate anyone who is condesending and your Vet is not only condesending, I'm worried about his treatment recommendations. A second opinion is at least worth looking into. 

Sorry, I know Vet visits are expensive.


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## Dexell1827

I'm definitely looking for a new vet! This isn't the first time I've been condescended to, but I'm determined it will be the last.

I was able to do a phone consult with a vet who is a friend of a friend. I explained my concerns about the ivermiticide and Ollie being part Aussie. She was very helpful, and we talked for over 45 minutes. Ultimately, she recommended that I go ahead with treatment, but take 3-4 days at each new dose, so I did give Ollie his first 0.1cc dose this evening. We'll do that for 3 more days, then step up to 0.2cc for four days, then 0.3cc for four days, and so on until we reach the 0.55cc dose. She gave me a thorough list of symptoms to look out for and told me that if Ollie is susceptible to the ivermiticide, it will most likely be immediately apparent.

I feel better after talking with someone who actually _listened_ to my concerns, and was willing to discuss possible alternatives. There is obviously still a risk associated with the treatment, but she said that with Ollie being a mix, and Ollie's mom being a mix, the risk is much lower than if Ollie were a pure bred. And treatment is definitely necessary to prevent the mange from spreading.

I just hope I'm doing the right thing. :-/


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## mybuddy

Dexell1827 said:


> We're back. I had to wait an hour because I insisted on speaking with the vet instead of just the vet tech.
> 
> Ollie has demodectic mange, which was what I was expecting the diagnosis to be. I'm ticked at my vet, though. I questioned him about the necessity of using the general anesthesia to do the skin scraping, and he said that since Ollie was so poorly socialized and couldn't hold still for the scraping, that general anesthesia was necessary to avoid cutting him. He then proceeded to give me a lecture on making sure my puppy was well socialized so he could be handled easily. I looked him in the eye and said "You do realize he is only 10 weeks old, has not completed his series of shots, and parvo is a BIG concern in our area, right? Are you telling me I should take my puppy to places where I can't guarantee no unimmunized dogs have been? And I challenge you to find ANY 10-week-old puppy who doesn't turn into a wiggling ball of fur when new people are near." He looked kinda flustered and said "Well, yes, but..." and went on to discuss treatment. He told me he wants Ollie on a 1% solution of ivermiticide for six weeks. I reminded him that Ollie is part Aussie and questioned whether that was the best treatment. He brushed aside my concerns but did say that if I was worried about it, we could gradually increase the dosage to the treatable level to more easily manage any possible side effects. He then revised the instructions, and Ollie is to get 0.1cc of the solution tomorrow, and step up 0.1cc each day until the treatment level of 0.55cc is reached. He'll be on that dose for 6-8 weeks.
> 
> So what should I do? Assuming he tolerates the ivermiticide well and we treat for the 6-8 weeks recommended, will that interfere with the booster shots he needs at 12 & 16 weeks? And what about his rabies at 16 weeks?
> 
> Ugh, my poor puppy!


 
Can you change vets? Seriously, but ***? I feel angry that he was put off by a puppy wiggling around. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!

BTW, your baby is beautiful and I think you are doing a great job. :wavey:


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## mybuddy

Dexell1827 said:


> I'm definitely looking for a new vet! This isn't the first time I've been condescended to, but I'm determined it will be the last.
> 
> /


Fantastic!!!! I would let him know why too. That would really tick me off.


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## glnbrgold

Good job! It sounds like you did exactly the right thing to ensure your peace of mind. Is the Vet you consulted with close to you?? Sounds like she is a gem. 

Your puppy is adorable. Good luck and keep us updated.


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## Dexell1827

glnbrgold said:


> Is the Vet you consulted with close to you?? Sounds like she is a gem.


Unfortunately she's two states away. :no: I was extremely grateful to her for taking so much time out of her Saturday afternoon to talk with me, though!

It's been about 18 hours since Ollie's first dose, and so far so good. I'm definitely hoping that continues to be the case!


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## mylissyk

You've done a great job being the advocacate for your puppy. I hope you can find a vet that is as helpful and listens as well as the one you talked to on the phone.


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## coppers-mom

I'm glad Ollie is doing well and of coure hope and pray he continues to thrive.

He is still a cutie even with his poor little bald spots.:smooch:


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## Dexell1827

A quick update on Mr. Ollie...he's doing very well so far on the ivermiticide treatment. We just bumped up to .2cc/day last night, and he's still tolerating it well. 

I did request the MDR1 testing kit from WSU on Saturday, and it arrived in this morning's mail. I'm going to do the cheek swabs this evening and get those sent out right away. So far all signs are pointing to Ollie not having the defective gene, but I'll definitely feel better once I know for sure!


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## coppers-mom

I'm glad Ollie is doing well and hope he heals quickly and with absolutely no problems. He's a cutie.


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## Dexell1827

A quick update on Ollie:

He's been on the ivermiticide for two weeks. We're still not at the full therapeutic dose, but I got the results from his MDR-1 test from WSU yesterday, and he is normal/normal, thank goodness!! So we'll step up by 0.1 cc tomorrow and 0.5 on Monday to be at the full dose, and I hope we'll get the mange under control quickly. It's already spread to his feet and back legs, but the hair on his forehead has started to grow back, so I'm taking that as a good sign.

He's twelve weeks old now, and growing like a weed!!










I just want to say thanks for all of the support and advice you all gave! I would have had no idea about the MDR-1 gene if not for this forum, and I can't imagine how horrible it would have been if Ollie had turned out to have the defective gene, given the horrible lack of education provided by my (now OLD) vet.


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## Florabora22

He's super cute!!! Glad to hear things are going well.


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## mylissyk

How is Mr. Ollie doing now? He really is cute as a bug.


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## Dexell1827

He's doing well, thanks for checking on him! He's getting the hair back on his forehead, and for the first time since I picked him up from the shelter, he has eyelashes!!  The mange spread pretty far, and his belly is bare now, but I'm hoping another 2 weeks of meds will straighten him up. He's 14 weeks old today, and cuter than ever:


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## hotel4dogs

glad to hear he's doing well!! He's just as cute as can be.


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## mylissyk

Do you think he will end up with both ears standing up?


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## Kmullen

He looks much better !!


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## Dexell1827

Another update on Ollie:

He's 15.5 weeks, and I think we've finally beaten those nasty mange mites. He's still got about a week of the ivermiticide left, and he'll go for a skin scraping on Saturday. Keep your fingers crossed that it's clear, please! 

Also, he's due for his DHCPP (?) vaccine, since he'll be 16 weeks. I didn't do the 12 wk booster, as I was more concerned with not causing a flare-up with the mange. But he definitely needs the booster now, and he's also due for the rabies vaccine. Would it be too much on him to have both at the same time?

Oh, and here's a picture taken on the 4th. His ears are still deciding what they want to do, but it's looking like he may have prick ears:


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## Kmullen

He looks awesome!!


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