# Bad elbow in the show ring



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Beats me! But I do know of someone who showed a girl who had failed her heart clearances, never planned to breed her, but said they just liked playing the game.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Well, I can answer this one persoanlly with why I do it. My very first girl Jinx did not pass her elbows. She will never be bred. I finished her championship and am continuing on with a Grand Championship for a few reasons. 

1. She LOVES it. Honestly I don't know another dog quite like her in that way. If we stand near the ring's entrance, she pulls to go in with evey class and again when the dogs move by. She would glad do every single class though she only goes in one. She comes alive in the ring in a way she does not any where else. She like to do obedience work but LOVES the breed ring.

2. I am still learning. Each level of competition is different. I am learning more now that I am in the BOB ring and getting to group (not common when the #1 golden in the country in your area) is very different.

3. Building my reputation. I am still really new. I have not even bred my first litter, I co-breed with my mentor who allows input and discussion but the final decisions are her's to make. Showing gets me out there where other breeders can see who I am, how I show, that I am serious. It will be very important if I go to buy a new puppy to have proved that I can take a show prospect all the way if they have the ability, especially since I am a middle class lady who likely will not pay a handler.

4. Proving her family. Though Jinx's wins will never benefit her puppies as she will not be bred, they do benefit her family. Her Championship and Grand earn points for both of her parents for the outstanding sire/dam designation. It also reflects on her half siblings.

Yes, the purpose is to evaluate breeding stock and I don't think in the future I will do again what I am doing with Jinx as I will have built my reputation, will have honed my skill and I doubt there will ever be another dog with the passion for the ring Jinx has. In fact, I pulled a puppy bitch from an already paid for show becuase of a failed clearance and then placed her in a wonderful pet home. I could have shown her but I did not want to because if she won, I would have been that much more sad that she was going to have the life I dreamed for her. I still fully believe that puppy could have done well in obedience, conformation an hunt tests. In fact, my obedience instructor repeatedly told me to keep her for competitive obedience but understood that if I am going to be a breeder, I can't keep every dog.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Not that I agree with this, and the highly respected breeder that I had discussions with, did not agree with this either. We were talking about clearances, and she said that she has known of breeders not doing elbows or still breeding with failed elbows, because there was enough reason for them to believe that the dog had injured their elbows the first two years.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have several friends who have spayed/neutered their dogs as soon as they finished.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I think some breeders are not terribly concerned about mild elbows. (I disagree, but I've heard that from several.) So perhaps they intend to breed those dogs.

Possibly, failed dogs are being shown to get their sire an OS or the dam an OD.

And then there's the personal. I stopped showing my bridge boy, Charlie, when he was collected and turned out to be sterile (reaction from a bad vaccine, but that's a different story). And now I regret it. He was the most magnificent dog I've ever had, and so much better than many of the specials in the ring. A truly impressive dog. I would like to have gotten him the recognition that amazing boy deserved. Sterile or not, he was a breathtaking example of the breed, and that deserves recognition, not for his use in breeding, but for acknowledgement of the generations of work that went into making him. But I didn't, and now he's gone. So, perhaps failed dogs are being shown simply for the recognition of an otherwise amazing dog, though they will not be bred. I dunno. I wish I had kept showing Charlie.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I have a friend that continued to show a boy with bad elbows, all the way to GCh. She had his elbows redone 2 times with the same results. Her co-owner, a well known breeder I won't mention, told her that many big time show dogs don't pass their elbows. I totally disagree. With a show dog that has a GCh, there are so many, why not neuter and stop showing if they have no elbow clearances? With field dogs, there are so few good ones in proportion to show dogs. Having one field dog with bad elbows and lots of FT points is more likely to be bred, and probably should be, than that GCH with bad elbows.

My thoughts on clearances are so much in positioning... If a slight rotation can make a dog go from fair to good, or mild to fair, what's the point in the end if positioning is that much of a factor. As much as we'd like to believe that clearances are black and white they are not. a good vet can make a huge difference for your clearances.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> My thoughts on clearances are so much in positioning... If a slight rotation can make a dog go from fair to good, or mild to fair, what's the point in the end if positioning is that much of a factor. As much as we'd like to believe that clearances are black and white they are not. a good vet can make a huge difference for your clearances.


True, but (and this is a big but) we are for the most part flunking dogs that probably should have passed, not passing dogs that should have passed. No matter how well positioned, a dysplasia affected hip is still a dysplasia affected hip. It is a shame that we probably are pulling valuable dogs from the gene pool that may have passed with better positioning, but that isn't a lot of dogs. Personally that is (retiring a few dogs that should have passed since no system is perfect) worth reducing the risk of hip dysplasia by 50% to me.

Unfortunately it isn't black and white though. Breeding is still as much an art as a science.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think I've said before, but before Bertie - I was about to put some money down for a puppy from a litter when I realized the elbow clearance was missing from the sire. When asked, the breeder explained the dog is an excellent dog and she doesn't believe in throwing a good dog out because of one "maybe bad" elbow. 

Full story was the original owner of the dog decided to rehome him after the elbow failed. The breeder I know of decided to take him, because he was just a few points shy of his grand championship and he also had the pedigree she wanted (combination conformation and performance). 

I explained to her that for obedience - I know of a lot of people who retire dogs with elbow dysplasia after CD and don't bother after that to keep these dogs from jumping and making those elbows worse. It's a very BAD thing for obedience. <- All this said on my way out the door. And to this day, I would never consider going back to that same breeder even if dogs have all clearances. 

For conformation showing though it really depends. Before I got Bertie's results, I gave a lot of thought about what I'd do if they came back bad in one way or another. And I was thinking about continuing to show - simply because I'm not doing this to breed my dog. I'm doing it for fun.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My mentor continued to show her dog, after his hips failed, because he was on his way to his championship. Of course, he was never bred. In England, I believe with the BVA system, one mildly dysplastic elbow would be considered breedable.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I showed Slater plenty and he has juvenile cataracts. For all the reasons LJack said. A "venue for evaluating breeding stock" is a rather antiquated view of dog shows .... why hire a handler and never meet a single judge who is awarding your dog ribbons if you're looking for evaluation of your breeding stock? The game today is a whole nuther animal. Clearances and breeding decisions are an owner's choice, and not one that should have any bearing on when or if a dog is shown.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks for all the responses. I appreciate the insight and thoughts.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> My mentor continued to show her dog, after his hips failed, because he was on his way to his championship. Of course, he was never bred. In England, I believe with the BVA system, one mildly dysplastic elbow would be considered breedable.


I believe there is a page on the OFA website comparing US dogs to European, and saying that they do regularly breed dogs with 1D (?) and the percentage of dogs kind of high.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

If you look, there are some top ranked dogs, both present and past with no elbow clearances. Some are being bred, others are not. 

I enjoy showing my own dogs and being successful with them. It is a hobby I've come to enjoy and I can't have a house full of dogs. Heaven forbid a clearance is failed, I still think I would finish my young dog. It's about breeding stock, right? Showing a worthy dog who fits the standard is just as much about his sire and dam's production as it is about the dog itself.


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