# How do I solve this problem??



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Sounds like she is a bit out of balance, and not understanding that retrieving out of water is a must, just like it is on land. At the moment I would not be doing hand-throwns from shore or behind her since you are noticing a pattern of difficulty there. Those are not good marks to throw anyhow, as they really just teach the dog only to go out as far as you can throw, and not too look out and forward for where the mark will originate.

Finishing the formal FF process will help (ie FF does not stop at ear pinch and picking the bumper up off the ground, but after Force to Pile, and WAter Force and everything that goes with them!) 

You also need to make water fun again so she gets her happy back about those retrieves! Balance is really important when you are doing pressure work. For a lot of dogs who get down about water work, a big pickup can be a live shackled duck--you can make a breakaway tether using a light line and a 6" nail driven into the ground which should provide enough resistance that the duck cannot pull it out, but the dog can.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

sterregold said:


> Finishing the formal FF process will help (ie FF does not stop at ear pinch and picking the bumper up off the ground, but after Force to Pile, and *Water Force *and everything that goes with them!)


That's what most people miss; water force.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Has she ever done any dock diving? 
You can try to set up a "dock diving" type scene without a dock if you have a lake or pond you can use. (make sure it's a safe shoreline, no submerged sticks and rocks). 
Put her on a sit-stay about 50 feet (not yards) from the edge of the pond. 
Walk to the edge of the pond with a bumper or toy. I use bumpers, it doesn't cause a problem with field related work.
Start swinging the bumper, yelling, making a big fuss (ARE YOU READY READY READY READY?? HERE IT GOES!!! READY READY READY!) and then release her right as you throw it. I tell Tito "get it get it get it" and he knows it's okay to break the stay and head for the water.
I think you will see a whole different dog.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thanks, I will talk to my trainer about water force. Would it be appropriate for her if she is not comfortable going down steep/covered banks?

When I throw these bumpers from behind her, they are not marks. They're just for fun and exercise! So you can see why I'm bummed that she doesn't enjoy it anymore.

Barb, she has not done dock diving but I'm pretty sure she won't react like I know your Tito did on his first jump lol. 


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

She will enjoy them again - eventually. But for now I would not throw fun bumpers into the water. She needs to get thru the FF process first. Your trainer can help you to do Water Force appropiately, even if she does not like the steep bank. You can find an easy water entry to start and work your way back (distance) and into tougher approaches once she understands the concept.

I would also stop throwing sticks for her. Ever. I once saw a dog at a hunt test who could not find the bird so he found a nice stick instead!!

Good Luck!!


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

sterregold said:


> You also need to make water fun again so she gets her happy back about those retrieves! Balance is really important when you are doing pressure work. For a lot of dogs who get down about water work, a big pickup can be a live shackled duck--you can make a breakaway tether using a light line and a 6" nail driven into the ground which should provide enough resistance that the duck cannot pull it out, but the dog can.


I think this is really good advise. Make the retrieving FUN for her!!

Riot and I have been having similar problems with marks in general, land and water. He started not going, jogging out, running to the gunner, running back without the mark, etc. At first, we applied the idea of force to the problem. "Maybe he doesn't understand that retrieving is a MUST." However, this only seemed to make the problems worse. We would do some FTP, then go right to a mark, trying to use the yard to influence his marking retrieves. It was SO frustrating because he previously had some much drive on his marks, hitting the water hard, sprinting to the land marks. Two weeks ago, we decided to put another plan together. We went back to easy walking singles, lots of fun, no cover. I didn't ask for him to be steady, just held his collar then releasing. We put swim-by on the back-burner. We also have made sure that he doesn't get in trouble on marking. We don't want it to be a self-fulfilling idea of "I'm going to get in trouble so I'm not going to go" and then get in trouble for not going. The only yard work we are doing right now is baseball, and I'm only using the collar for failing to sit or failing to come. 

Anyway, just some things to think about. We are going out to train again tomorrow with marks, so I will let you know how it goes


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you for all of the advice! We trained today but only did land marks so I completely forgot to ask about water force. I have just been taking Molly to the lake every day and having my BF hold her collar on shore. I'll walk into the water and throw the bumper and that makes Molly really excited. Just waiting for me to throw the bumper she will pull so hard she's only standing on her back legs and when released she will sprint into the lake. I walk back onto shore and have her deliver to hand and return to heel and we'll only do this 3-4 times a day. I just want her to have fun.

Last week's live bird really got Molly going and she had a great day today. She had so much fun and I am SO happy to see that enthusiasm. 


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

It's great to hear that things have turned around and she's finding that enthusiasm that she'd momentarily lost. Obviously, you are doing the right things!
A word of caution about water force. Note that her reaction to pressure (i.e., FF) was to lose her "go" on water, which suggests one or two things: she is fairly sensitive or she didn't quite understand what was happening in FF ... possibly the timing wasn't quite right. For some reason, the bumper became the focus of pressure to her (that's one reason why I start FF with a wooden dowel instead of a bumper; I'll move to bumpers just before we go to walking fetch in the yard). I don't mean to be a contrarian with regard to other's advice, but I do not feel that water force is right for all dogs. By all means, discuss it with your pro since he/she knows Molly better than any of us on the internet.
FTGoldens


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

FTgoldens, I was also concerned that more pressure would further discourage her. She is a sensitive dog. She is fine with all sorts of quick corrections but I can tell she does not take constant pressure (like FF) very well.


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## drofen (Feb 2, 2013)

Absolutely nothing of import to the conversation.

Just wanted to say I'm really impressed with Molly's progress and everything you've done with her! And it's always neat to see an owner tuned into their dog's happiness.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

drofen said:


> Absolutely nothing of import to the conversation.
> 
> Just wanted to say I'm really impressed with Molly's progress and everything you've done with her! And it's always neat to see an owner tuned into their dog's happiness.


Thank you! She is progressing slowly but surely. The most important thing is that we have fun together. 


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