# Ready to Love Again / Help with Pedigrees



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

So sorry to hear about your loss of Oakley. So many people here understand the pain of losing a Golden who's been an important member of the family.

On a very quick look it seemed to me that litter #1 has a show focus to the pedigree while litter #2 has a strong performance pedigree. Without knowing much about the particular dogs I would expect a pup from litter #1 to have the show look - bigger blockier head, more coat, heavier build and a dog from litter #2 to be somewhat higher energy, more agile, more intelligent but likely needing more exercise.

In terms of longevity, you can get some information by going to k9data and while on the 5 generation pedigree page, clicking on the longevity option at the bottom of the page. The information typically will have some gaps but is a start.

You might want to ask the mods to move this thread to the choosing a puppy and breeder section where you might get more input from some more knowledgeable people.

eta: I see that you have already started another thread. Good luck with your search.


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## Melakat (Oct 9, 2010)

Thank you very much for your response and I appreciate you explaining the differences we might find between litters.

Kathryn


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

So sorry about your sweet boy. They never can be replaced and it is so hard. It's never long enough. 

Have you decided on a litter yet? 

I just lost my girl at 9.5 to hemangio and it was devastating, so I too, have spent a lot of time researching pedigrees, health, longevity, COI, etc. 

I personally would steer clear of a line with lymphoma. Cancer is huge in goldens and there's still a lot of research that needs to be done. There doesn't seem to be anything conclusive about hemangio being genetic, but there is evidence that lymphoma is. Cancer is really hard to avoid in goldens and ultimately, they won't live forever, so I do feel like it is different if a dog passes away from cancer at 14.5 vs. 7. 

There is a lot of research on the COI-also not a tell tale predictor of longevity, but it helps. Lower is typically better. I like to see a combination of relatively low COI with proven longevity. It's up to the owners to update k9data so it's not foolproof but I like to see the cause of death, especially when they're young. I steered clear of pedigrees where the causes weren't entered. Sadly, just because the parents are all 14 plus, doesn't meant that the puppy will also be that old, but it certainly gave me more peace of mind.

Willie, the sire in the first litter you listed, shares some of the same lines as my girl. She was a wonderful, sweet, smart, beautiful dog and the puppy that I've selected for myself also shares some of the same lines. I was really pleased when I discovered that! My hesitation there is lymphoma.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

With K9Data - you don't always have date of deaths entered either. 

It is a case where it is best for people to talk to the breeders and make sure the breeders actually know their lines.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Very true. The breeder is an invaluable resource and can certainly help fill in gaps. I found many that knew far more than k9data provided. That said, I still think that k9data is an excellent screening resource, although certainly not perfect.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Another issue I came across is I found that certain breeders chose not to enter in information that showed things like certain cancers, lymphoma, etc. I prefer to see more disclosure so that I can make a more informed decision.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Biggest thing to assume with any pedigree.... there will be cancer. Odds are if the dogs live 10+ years, the cause of death will be cancer. 

The thing to be concerned about would be young cancer (dogs dying prior to 10 years, and especially those younger than 8)... especially within 3-5 generations.... and this isn't always entered into K9Data. You have some owners who are more honest than others, and I do imagine they are unfairly punished because of it. There are other pedigrees, especially with breeders KNOWN to have long lived dogs who unfortunately have lost at least 1 dog too early. This may be a dog behind a popular sire even. I think in those cases, you need to talk to the breeder and weigh the good vs the bad. And I do think many of these breeders do not post death dates or causes on K9Data because they prefer to talk to people in person about these dogs and absolutely will discuss the matter with puppy owners.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

That very well may be in a lot of cases, especially with the better more honest breeders. I just happen to be thinking of one breeder (very popular and well known) in particular that continued to breed a dog with lymphoma that almost never discloses the cause of death.


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## Melakat (Oct 9, 2010)

Christen113 said:


> So sorry about your sweet boy. They never can be replaced and it is so hard. It's never long enough.
> 
> Have you decided on a litter yet?
> 
> ...


 Thank you and I am very sorry for the loss of your girl to Hemangio. What an ugly that cancer that is.

I looked at many litters and was discouraged to find cancer even if it did not show up on first glance but if I clicked into siblings of some of the dogs with great longevity I would see that one of his/her brothers or sisters died young of some form of cancer (for those on K9 that do disclose COD). I was reading an article recently that if you take any given litter there will be a % of dogs that will most likely pass young from this awful disease. Maybe there are lines out there that have been lucky enough to escape this?
Oakley was just over 8 when he passed and he was from a reputable breeder and from a litter of 9 boys. After his death I contacted the breeder only to find out that 3 of his brothers had also died from Hemangio within 6 weeks of each other. So sad 

I read something also recently with regards to lymphoma and ticks / lyme disease and a possible correlation.


In the end I did go with Litter #1 and found out after I had made the decision that the dam from Litter #2 did not conceive. I know there is Lymphoma in that line and I hope knowing that does not haunt me but the litter offered so many other wonderful traits – including a low COI. We own a cottage on a lake and we get a lot of company visit us there including other dogs. It is equally important that we have a dog with a great temperament. My breeder had mentioned to me that she had seen and met Willie at various shows and that he had a wonderful temperament & disposition that really stood out to her – interesting his name is “Sweetgold Mr. Wonderful”.
Which Litter did you go with?


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## Melakat (Oct 9, 2010)

Christen113 said:


> So sorry about your sweet boy. They never can be replaced and it is so hard. It's never long enough.
> 
> Have you decided on a litter yet?
> 
> ...


 Thank you and I am very sorry for the loss of your girl to Hemangio. What an ugly cancer that is.

I looked at many litters and was discouraged to find cancer even if it did not show up on first glance but if I clicked into siblings of some of the dogs with great longevity I would see that one of his/her brothers or sisters died young of some form of cancer (for those on K9 that do disclose COD). I was reading an article recently that if you take any given litter there will be a % of dogs that will most likely pass young from this awful disease. Maybe there are lines out there that have been lucky enough to escape this?
Oakley was just over 8 when he passed and he was from a reputable breeder and from a litter of 9 boys. After his death I contacted the breeder only to find out that 3 of his brothers had also died from Hemangio within 6 weeks of each other. So sad 

I read something also recently with regards to lymphoma and ticks / lyme disease and a possible correlation.


In the end I did go with Litter #1 and found out after I had made the decision that the dam from Litter #2 did not conceive. I know there is Lymphoma in that line and I hope knowing that does not haunt me but the litter offered so many other wonderful traits – including a low COI. We own a cottage on a lake and we get a lot of company visit us there including other dogs. It is equally important that we have a dog with a great temperament. My breeder had mentioned to me that she had seen and met Willie at various shows and that he had a wonderful temperament & disposition that really stood out to her – interesting his name is “Sweetgold Mr. Wonderful”.
Which Litter did you go with?


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## Melakat (Oct 9, 2010)

Christen113. Maybe you have seen this article already but if not it is a very good read that talks quite extensively about cancers in Goldens, genetics, mutations, hemangio and the 2 types of lymphomas.

Understanding Cancers in Golden Retrievers: http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAH/local-assets/pdfs/UnderstandingCancerinGoldenRetrievers2.pdf

It states: Can we reduce the risk thru breeding decisions? 



The golden that dies from cancer at 7 and then one that lives to 14 is most often not under the control of inherited genes. The difference is more likely due to random lucky or unlucky mutations, or environmental exposures. Scroll down to page 7 of the article it is a very interesting read.


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