# Advice on an email...



## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I need some advice on the email I just got regarding Toby. I definitely want him back, but what is your advice on the refund part?

Here is the email:

Dear Rebecca,

Just to let you know, Toby is doing great. He is so
sweet and more mellow than we thought he would be! He
has been such a joy. Unfortunately, we have run into a
problem. 

I was awarded a scholarship through my graduate
school, and it makes up a considerable amount of the
money we use to live off of. However, due to budget
cuts, the school can’t offer me that money this
semester. There was no way to predict this as the
school just informed me yesterday. What this all means
is a very very tight budget and no way to care for a
puppy. 

We really hate that this happened. We’ve been wanting
to get a golden for a while, and Toby is just a
terrific, smart dog. We’re not sure what your
procedure is on returning puppies, but we would really
appreciate any help you can give. We really hope we
can send him back to you so that you can find him a
home that can care for him properly. 

We haven’t signed the contract yet- we just got it in
the mail yesterday. We would cover shipping him back,
of course, but we would really appreciate it if we
could ship him back soon. One, because we cannot
afford to pay for another vet certificate for travel,
and two, because we don’t want to get any more
attached to him than we already are. 

We don’t know if you have any refund policy on the
cost of the puppy (not including shipping), but
anything you can offer would really help us out. If
there is no refund, we completely understand. What
matters the most to us right now is getting Toby
somewhere he can be happy and receive all of the care
he needs. We are truly sorry this happened. We’ve
tried every scenario for keeping him, but we just
can’t work it out. No matter how we figure it, we just
don’t have the money to provide him with everything he
needs.

I hope you can help. I look forward to hearing back
from you. I will be working and away from my phone
until late in the evening today, but I will have
fairly regular access to email. If possible, please
email me directions on how to proceed.

Thanks so much, and again, I’m sorry.
Jessica


HELP!!!!


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Honestly, i'm shocked. Poor Toby. Ship him to MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## k9rider (Dec 13, 2006)

What has been your policy in the past? If you've never had this happen, I'd probably offer a partial refund. It just depends on what your plan would be once you got him back. Would you keep him as a pet, would you re-sell him, or would you give him away? If you would be re-selling him, then it doesn't seem fair not to give a refund.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

k9rider said:


> What has been your policy in the past? If you've never had this happen, I'd probably offer a partial refund. It just depends on what your plan would be once you got him back. Would you keep him as a pet, would you re-sell him, or would you give him away? If you would be re-selling him, then it doesn't seem fair not to give a refund.



I have not had this issue in the past. I will be adding a paragraph to my contract for the future.

I would not be re-selling him - I would be giving him away.


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## VeronicaLovesHerGoldens (May 27, 2005)

Maybe a partial refund?? They seem like nice people who ran into some financial hardship.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

I am shocked. Kinda feel sad/mad...its hard to explain. I guess I feel this way b/c this is one of the siblings to Katie. IMO its really up to you how much or how little you want to return to them. I know $200 isnt refundable b/c thats the deposit.....maybe $150.......


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Like i said per our phone conversation a few minutes ago, with then not signing a contract, you are NOT liable to refund them but i would make travel arrangements for him asap and tell them you'll talk about the refund policy as soon as you get time and then BAM tell them sorry, i don't have your signature therefor you are not eligible for a refund.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Katiesmommy said:


> I am shocked. Kinda feel sad/mad...its hard to explain. I guess I feel this way b/c this is one of the siblings to Katie. IMO its really up to you how much or how little you want to return to them. I know $200 isnt refundable b/c thats the deposit.....maybe $150.......


I am just really upset about it. They only had him for 3 days!


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Maybe this dog was just meant to be yours!

What has your policy been in the past on refunds? I do think you need to get that dog back to you ASAP--before they change their minds and drop him off a the pound-or resell him to god only knows who--


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> Like i said per our phone conversation a few minutes ago, with then not signing a contract, you are NOT liable to refund them but i would make travel arrangements for him asap and tell them you'll talk about the refund policy as soon as you get time and then BAM tell them sorry, i don't have your signature therefor you are not eligible for a refund.



Actually shes got a point. She was interested in the scholarship before buying Toby. I dont know makes me scratch my head.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

njb said:


> Maybe this dog was just meant to be yours!
> 
> What has your policy been in the past on refunds? I do think you need to get that dog back to you ASAP--before they change their minds and drop him off a the pound-or resell him to god only knows who--



I have not had an issue before this. I have never had to deal with a returned pup. I definitely am going to tell her to get him back on a plane asap. I will even make all of the arrangements for the flight. I just in my heart dont feel like I should give them a refund since they didnt even try! 3 days is not trying!


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> I am just really upset about it. They only had him for 3 days!


Me also...breaks my heart.....I wish there was something we could do to help.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

That's a tough call... Technically, I wouldn't feel "obligated" to issue a refund, but would probably consider it, just to be nice....

What about a particial refund?


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

Now that you speak of it...just 3 days! OMG......your right...thats not trying. Things are just starting to calm down here and its been 3 weeks. I dont know how they can give him back.....emotionally.....I know we couldnt. Our lives are complete now that we have Katie.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Well, honestly i don't think it's for lack of trying, i think it's due to the scholarship or whatever it was. Getting a dog is a big decision and you need to make sure you are stable in your life to accept the responibility of a dog in the first place. They failed to do so from the beginning. it's a money thing. A big factor in caring for a dog. They should have thought about it before committing.


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> Well, honestly i don't think it's for lack of trying, i think it's due to the scholarship or whatever it was. Getting a dog is a big decision and you need to make sure you are stable in your life to accept the responibility of a dog in the first place. They failed to do so from the beginning.


True, and true. I do think that it's good of them to recognize that they can't give him the life he needs though. How many people try to make it work when they can't, and who suffers....the dog. I'm not saying that these people are good and that i'm not angry/frustrated like the rest of us with the situation, but I am happy that they want Toby to have a good life and recognize that they can't provide that.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Oh for Pete's sake! I agree--get him on the plane back to you, then tell them they get nothing. If you tell them beforehand that you can't refund the money, they may be tempted to sell him. They don't deserve any money because of what they put poor little puppy through by having him put on a plane and flown there.

I'm also not totally believing her story. How could she have "tried every scenario" for keeping Toby when she just found out about the scholarship _yesterday_? There is something else going on here.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> Oh for Pete's sake! I agree--get him on the plane back to you, then tell them they get nothing. If you tell them beforehand that you can't refund the money, they may be tempted to sell him. They don't deserve any money because of what they put poor little puppy through by having him put on a plane and flown there.
> 
> I'm also not totally believing her story. How could she have "tried every scenario" for keeping Toby when she just found out about the scholarship _yesterday_? There is something else going on here.


That is kinda how I feel about it too. I'm just floored still.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I my self would get Tobey on a plane asap..... If they havent signed the contract, which Im guessing it says to return Tobey, if something was to come up..... They could try and sale him...... I would make sure they pay for the shipping and if you arent going to resell Tobey and are to give him away..... I would say maybe a particial refund... I also dont think its from the lack of trying....


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

They aren't going to pay for shipping i bet. If they do, well, like i said Ohio isn't all that far away LOL


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## k9rider (Dec 13, 2006)

To me, the only responsible thing to do is to take the dog back. At least they were honest with you and are giving you, the breeder, first refusal of the puppy. Yes, it's sad and unfortunate, but things happen sometimes that are not planned for. Believe me, I do not think that pets are disposable...they are for life. However, if these folks know at 3 days that this is not something they can handle at least you have the opportunity to find a more suitable forever home for Toby. You can be assured that the dog did not bond to them at all and will be relatively unaffected by the whole thing. I would definitely add a policy into your contract, going forward, that states that if at any time one of your dogs isn't working out, that they are to be returned to you. For this instance, I would offer a partial refund. If the puppy cost $600 and your deposit is $200, I would offer $200 in a refund (50% of the cost after the deposit).


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> They aren't going to pay for shipping i bet. If they do, well, like i said Ohio isn't all that far away LOL


She did say that they would pay the shipping to get him back here....

This is the email I am going to send her - Let me know if I should add/remove anything.


Jessica,

I am so very sorry to hear about this. It breaks my heart. 

Lets deal with getting him back on a plane before the health certificate expires and then we can deal with the issue of the refund.

He would have to fly before Friday - the health cert is only good until then. I can make the travel arrangements if you tell me what day is best for you. Let me know and I will call Continental and get it set up.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> Honestly, i'm shocked. Poor Toby. Ship him to MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


No, to ME! To MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! LOL

It's still hard to believe. What would she have done if she had gotten her scholarship money this year, but not next year? Get rid of the dog? The whole story about needing to ship him back ASAP doesn't sit right with me.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Perfect. Just get this dog away before he goes somewhere he shouldn't!!!


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> She did say that they would pay the shipping to get him back here....
> 
> This is the email I am going to send her - Let me know if I should add/remove anything.
> 
> ...



I think that is perfect.~~~~


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## k9rider (Dec 13, 2006)

Agreed, send the email and get Mr. Toby back!


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## Selena (Dec 26, 2006)

I am sorry, other than a health issue I would not refund the money. I am sure she new something of what was going on with school. I do not refund money unless there was a medical problem. I have never had that happen but if it did That would be the only way. I agree with maggies mom get him back ASAP!! Were is he located?


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I'm not saying that these people are good and that i'm not angry/frustrated like the rest of us with the situation, but I am happy that they want Toby to have a good life and recognize that they can't provide that.



My take on it is that they're not thinking of the dog--they're thinking of the money and are hoping to get a refund. You can call me cynical if you want, but I think the email was carefully constructed to make someone want to give the money back by feeling sorry for these good, kind, thoughtful people. Blah!


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> My take on it is that they're not thinking of the dog--they're thinking of the money and are hoping to get a refund. You can call me cynical if you want, but I think the email was carefully constructed to make someone want to give the money back by feeling sorry for these good, kind, thoughtful people. Blah!


Oh, I can see that side of it too. But on the other side if they were just thinking of the $ why did they contact her at all. If it was about $ they could have just sold him to someone else. I see your point, I just don't think it's exclusively about the $. I do think $ has something to do with it though.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Oh, I can see that side of it too. But on the other side if they were just thinking of the $ why did they contact her at all. If it was about $ they could have just sold him to someone else. .


Because it's a lot easier to send him back to the breeder and get a refund than it is to put an ad in the paper, field phone calls, wait for people to come by....


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> Because it's a lot easier to send him back to the breeder and get a refund than it is to put an ad in the paper, field phone calls, wait for people to come by....


True, and good point. I'm still just happy they didn't just get rid of him.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> My take on it is that they're not thinking of the dog--they're thinking of the money and are hoping to get a refund. You can call me cynical if you want, but I think the email was carefully constructed to make someone want to give the money back by feeling sorry for these good, kind, thoughtful people. Blah!


I couldnt have said that better myself I thought it was carefully worded...if that makes sense.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Selena D Taylor said:


> I am sorry, other than a health issue I would not refund the money. I am sure she new something of what was going on with school. I do not refund money unless there was a medical problem. I have never had that happen but if it did That would be the only way. I agree with maggies mom get him back ASAP!! Were is he located?


I just spoke to my vet and they agreed that I should not give a refund - there is no Medical issue involved - plus my time and effort for the trips to the airport, medical care, etc.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

I totally do not understand these people. I don't know why they went to the trouble of acquiring Toby. I guess we'll never truly know what they were thinking, but as everyone has said, it's best to get him back ASAP.

And after Toby is safely returned, I would issue them a full refund. Not because I feel sorry for them, or because I want to help them, or because I think they are nice people. I don't feel that way at all toward those people. They are _idiots_. 

I'd refund their money in order to wipe the slate (my life and Toby's) clean of any residual yuck. It's a karma thing.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

jeffreyzone said:


> I totally do not understand these people. I don't know why they went to the trouble of acquiring Toby. I guess we'll never truly know what they were thinking, but as everyone has said, it's best to get him back ASAP.
> 
> And after Toby is safely returned, I would issue them a full refund. Not because I feel sorry for them, or because I want to help them, or because I think they are nice people. I don't feel that way at all toward those people. They are _idiots_.
> 
> I'd refund their money in order to wipe the slate (my life and Toby's) clean of any residual yuck. It's a karma thing.



I think as soon as Becky gets Toby back....you could get Toby and come up to Canada and visit Katie


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## Hali's Mom (Oct 5, 2006)

IMO I would get Toby back to you ASAP. Evaluate him,after only 3 days he should be fine though. If he checks out, I would tell them that less the deposit and the airfare to get him back to you that you will refund them somthing. Whatever in your judgement would be fair of course. To refuse to give them anything doesn't seem fair to me. Unless I'm mistaken they did pay to get him to them originally didn't they? I would think that that expense would have deterred them in the beginning if their intentions were not to give him a forever home. Just my opinion.


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## Buuddy (Jan 11, 2007)

That's a bunch of BS! If you get a puppy its like a child, its yours, and you should not give it up, would you give up a child like that ??? aaaargghh this angers me, they should take the dog with them and care for it etc, even if it means spending more money.


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Buuddy said:


> That's a bunch of BS! If you get a puppy its like a child, its yours, and you should not give it up, would you give up a child like that ??? aaaargghh this angers me, they should take the dog with them and care for it etc, even if it means spending more money.


I think you should take Toby...then you'd have a golden for Buddy to play with.


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## VeronicaLovesHerGoldens (May 27, 2005)

I just keep thinking about how confused that poor little puppy is going to be when this is all over and done with and thats what really makes me angry.

Maybe for that reason alone you shouldn't give them any money back.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

If its truly about the money.....couldnt someone in the household get a 2nd job. I know thats what we would do.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

*Katie's Mommy* wrote:


> I think as soon as Becky gets Toby back....you could get Toby and come up to Canada and visit Katie.


This has crossed my mind. Karen and I had a serious talk about Toby a few weeks ago. We concluded that we should keep the third slot open for a foster dog. But Toby's story just continues to unfold in front of us. I feel for him.


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## Brittany (Jul 24, 2006)

I actually disagree....We don't really know these people's situation, so far all we've got is speculation. Were I the one giving up the pup, I know I would appreciate a refund. I think at least a partial refund is a good idea, after all, if they are covering the cost of shipping him back, are you really out very much money? I mean, it's completely up to you of course, that's just my opinion.  I'm glad they are sending him back to you instead of selling him, though!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Katiesmommy said:


> If its truly about the money.....couldnt someone in the household get a 2nd job. I know thats what we would do.


That might be a good idea...BUT..... If they do that , then there will be no time being spent with Tobey and is that fair to Tobey.....


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## Buuddy (Jan 11, 2007)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I think you should take Toby...then you'd have a golden for Buddy to play with.


I would do this BUT, I am waiting for buddy to croak, he has a lot of health problems right now. I don't think a new dog is what he needs, I am here learning all about goldens and giving my opinion so when Buddy passes away I can get a golden.

I'm just angry that the dog is not part of their family.. does that make sense ? how can you just get rid of it after spending time with it, where is the bond ??


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Katiesmommy said:


> If its truly about the money.....couldnt someone in the household get a 2nd job. I know thats what we would do.


First of all, they've made their decision so we can't say Ah get a second job. LOL


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Buuddy said:


> I'm just angry that the dog is not part of their family.. does that make sense ? how can you just get rid of it after spending time with it, where is the bond ??


I totally understand!! I mean after 3 days of having Carson there's no way I would give him back...and I swear sometimes I threatened it, but I'm a big baby and would never go through with it.


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## VeronicaLovesHerGoldens (May 27, 2005)

Buuddy said:


> I would do this BUT, I am waiting for buddy to croak, he has a lot of health problems right now. I don't think a new dog is what he needs, I am here learning all about goldens and giving my opinion so when Buddy passes away I can get a golden.
> 
> I'm just angry that the dog is not part of their family.. does that make sense ? how can you just get rid of it after spending time with it, where is the bond ??


I'm sitting here cracking up over your choice of words about poor ole Buddy!!!


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Buuddy said:


> I would do this BUT, I am waiting for buddy to croak,



You know, that's not a very nice way of putting it.... :no:


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

VeronicaLovesHerGoldens said:


> I'm sitting here cracking up over your choice of words about poor ole Buddy!!!


...and why are we not just shipping Toby from them to you, Lisa????? You know you want him. :agree: :agree: :agree:


Edit: oops, I thought Lexie's Mom posted that....my bad.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I work in rescue and some of the reasons for given up a dog is so stupid..... BUT on the other hand...... If the people give up the dog and it gets a new home , it will have the *love and attention they deserve*


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> ...and why are we not just shipping Toby from them to you, Lisa????? You know you want him. :agree: :agree: :agree:
> 
> 
> Edit: oops, I thought Lexie's Mom posted that....my bad.


 i suggested that already Carsonsdaddy!! scroll back thru the posts. I"D LOVE TO HAVE HIM!!!!!!!!I would love him and squeeze him and call him........toby.


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## Baileysmom (Aug 5, 2006)

I have been reading this thread to catch up. I agree that you should definitely get the puppy back asap. I would only offer them a partial refund. If they were living off of her graduate school scholarship, they really shouldn't have made the commitment in the first place. Scholarships are not ever a guaranteed thing. If you make the travel arrangements, are you required to give a credit card? If so, I would have them make the arrangements from their end.


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> i suggested that already Carsonsdaddy!! scroll back thru the posts. I"D LOVE TO HAVE HIM!!!!!!!!I would love him and squeeze him and call him........toby.


I saw that earlier but nothing seemed to come out of it. Just wanted to bring it back up. I'm all about you taking Toby home. ...so DO IT!!!


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> I saw that earlier but nothing seemed to come out of it. Just wanted to bring it back up. I'm all about you taking Toby home. ...so DO IT!!!


Well, i called telesmith and we talked so we'll see from there. I'd love to have him and give him a loving and happy home. I can bring him to work everyday as well. We are pet friendly here. I've brough Hooch alot but no so much Lexie since she hates the car!! My office would love him as much as i would!!!!!!!


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Plus if you take him home no one can doubt that you have a golden anymore...hee hee.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I would have them ship Toby back at their expense, but would refund them the amount of his purchase price. However, I would not refund them the money until you have placed him in a home. This is stated in my contract, and I feel it is fair. I don't want someone to keep a dog they don't want or can't care for just because they won't get their money back. And I don't like leading someone to believe they will get a refund and then telling them they won't.

I'm not sure why you would give him away versus re-selling him. It makes it seem as though he is "damaged goods", and he is not, and I know that is not what you meant.

My dogs are $800, regardless of their age (well, I never really sell an older dog), unless they are a retired showdog or brood bitch. In that case, they stay with me unless a special home looking for an older dog comes along. If its a good match, they go to be an only dog, at no cost to their new owner.

Linda
Tahnee Golden Retrievers
Endeavor Golden Retrievers


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## k9rider (Dec 13, 2006)

My opinion is that at least these folks figured it out in 3 days and not 3 months or 3 years. The puppy will be MUCH better off in a home that can provide him what he needs. Toby will not remember them and will not be affected by this, I can almost guarantee.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Tahnee GR said:


> I'm not sure why you would give him away versus re-selling him. It makes it seem as though he is "damaged goods", and he is not, and I know that is not what you meant.


I agree. If Toby was coming to live with us, I would insist on paying the full price for him.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

k9rider is correct-Golden puppies are remarkably resilient. My guess? He will end up with a "bullet proof" temperament, due to his experiences.

My two puppies that I brought back from Texas had gone through h**l with the "breeder" who whelped. By 8 weeks of age, they had been in 4 different homes, taken to dog shows from 2 weeks of age until they were removed from her care at 5 weeks of age, and then flew home with me at 8 weeks on a crowded plane! They both have no fear whatsoever, and are the most wonderfully socialized puppies I have ever seen.

I don't think this will be a negative experience for Toby, but I do think you should get him back as soon as possible.

Linda
Tahnee Golden Retrievers
Endeavor Golden Retrievers


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## Selena (Dec 26, 2006)

Buuddy said:


> I would do this BUT, I am waiting for buddy to croak, he has a lot of health problems right now. I don't think a new dog is what he needs, I am here learning all about goldens and giving my opinion so when Buddy passes away I can get a golden.
> 
> I'm just angry that the dog is not part of their family.. does that make sense ? how can you just get rid of it after spending time with it, where is the bond ??


Could you stop saying I am waiting for buddy to croak That sounds so heartless. Im sorry but that kills me!


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## Lil_Sandy (Oct 31, 2006)

Does your contract or bill of sale stipulate that all sales are final? If not then I believe they are entitled to a refund if you take the puppy back. If you refuse to take the puppy back then they have no legal ground to stand on. Perhaps you can arrange for the transportation home and then subtract the amount of the travel certificate and the roundtrip airfare. If this amount is greater than the original purchase price then send them a bill. If it is less then send them a refund. In my opinion this is really no different than returning any merchandise. Unless the bill of sale or the signed contract state all sales are final then I believe they are entitled to a refund if you accept the puppy. I'm not sure what the laws are in your state, but I would seek counsel just to cover yourself.


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## MarleyLove (Sep 2, 2006)

njb said:


> Maybe this dog was just meant to be yours!
> 
> What has your policy been in the past on refunds? I do think you need to get that dog back to you ASAP--before they change their minds and drop him off a the pound-or resell him to god only knows who--


That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't know these people so I can't say what their character is. But I would be worried that if they are that hard up for cash that they would sell him if you said no refund. So I would make arrangements for him to get back to you before even worrying about that part of it.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Omg, how horrible... poor Toby. He's just not getting a lucky break is he...

I talked to my breeder, and she said not to give them the money back.

She says she only refunds if the medical conditions are extreme (ie, hips are bad when they're supposed to be cleared) or if somehow the pup dies, she gives them a new pup but this isn't the case.

She had one guy who wanted a refund, he had the dog for 6 months, because his dog wasn't "cool enough". Of course she said she'd take the dog back, but wouldn't refund the guy, and the guy got very angry. 

And when the dog came to her, he was all bruised...

Anyway, I'm goin off topic... get Toby home ASAP and don't refund them.


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## MarleyLove (Sep 2, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> Oh for Pete's sake! I agree--get him on the plane back to you, then tell them they get nothing. If you tell them beforehand that you can't refund the money, they may be tempted to sell him. They don't deserve any money because of what they put poor little puppy through by having him put on a plane and flown there.
> 
> I'm also not totally believing her story. How could she have "tried every scenario" for keeping Toby when she just found out about the scholarship _yesterday_? There is something else going on here.



Agreed. A scholarship shouldn't "make up a large portion of income" or whatever she said. It just means you don't have student loans to pay back. I know when I was in school had I not had scholarships I would have had to take out loans, I wouldn't have just otherwise had that money sitting in the bank, which is what it sounds like she's saying. 

I agree with Carson'sDaddy, I'm glad it's now that they are doing this, versus 6 months or a year because the seperation would be a greater strain on Toby. But I do feel that you're not getting the whole, honest story. I wonder if maybe everything that a new puppy entails while she is working/going to school/raising kids isn't what was really overwhelming about the situation. Either way, I think it's most important just to get Toby back to you now. If talking to them, you feel that they are being honest I might give a partial refund and then use the rest of his purchase price to get him some special treats for his new home/next vet visit, or whatever. Sorry you're having to go through this.


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## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

This sickens me. I'm a college student as well, and I just adopted a rescue Golden. There is no way that I would give him up, just like that. But, playing devil's advocate, there might be something that I'm just not seeing and might be a worthwhile reason. 

You should definately get Toby back, one way or another. Once you have him, have him checked out ot make sure there are no ill effects from this whole ordeal. Then I would deduct the money paid for shipping him (if you had to foot the bill), the vet check up, and the deposit from the full amount they paid, then refund them 50% of the amount left. That way you get money for your inconvenience and Toby's hardship, and they get a partial refund. You both win. However, I would not give them anything until Toby has been placed in a new home.


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## Hali's Mom (Oct 5, 2006)

nGoldenm said:


> This sickens me. I'm a college student as well, and I just adopted a rescue Golden. There is no way that I would give him up, just like that. But, playing devil's advocate, there might be something that I'm just not seeing and might be a worthwhile reason.
> 
> You should definately get Toby back, one way or another. Once you have him, have him checked out ot make sure there are no ill effects from this whole ordeal. Then I would deduct the money paid for shipping him (if you had to foot the bill), the vet check up, and the deposit from the full amount they paid, then refund them 50% of the amount left. That way you get money for your inconvenience and Toby's hardship, and they get a partial refund. You both win. However, I would not give them anything until Toby has been placed in a new home.


I totally agree.............Three pages back.


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## ontariogolden (Oct 24, 2006)

Wow, that's such shocking news! I'm so sorry that Toby has to go through this! 

If a University has decided to grant a scholarship, it is usually upon acceptance or at the end of term. The student is paying for an education and they can't just pull the scholarship out from under them. I agree, there's something more to this story. 

As for a refund, I would only give back the purchase price LESS the deposit you take to hold a puppy. That is your "security" money and they shouldn't get that back. Of course, if they haven't signed their contract, I wouldn't feel I would have to give them back anything. An unforseeable incident down the road is a different issue, but after three days?

I hope Toby finds his forever home soon!


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## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

I don't even know why they went ahead and got Toby if something else was in the mix. I think though with the situation of the contract and needing to use the original vet certificate to fly him back, I would work fast and get him on the plane. I don't feel you should send them money for a refund, but I think if you want him back, it might have to happen. As long as both parties wind up financially the same (for the most part) and Toby is safe and sound, I would be happy.
Good luck.


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## Ginny (Nov 17, 2006)

I cannot honestly imagine giving up an animal after I made a commitment. Even though they say its money it still does not make sense. I would not enter into a big commitment unless I was sure I had the scholarship for this semester. The reality is almost any one of us could lose our job tomorrow and we would find a way to keep our pets. After meeting Buzz even 3 seconds I could not give him up much less 3 days. There are ways to get by and cut back and my heart breaks for Toby. I wish we could take him but I feel that would be unfair to Buzz at this time. I really wish more people would learn that a pet is such a big responsibility they are truly like children with their needs and even more so for little puppies. I think people should have to interview and be tested for the rights to have children and own pets. Sorry I am ranting I have just seen so many animals tossed away for no good reason while working at the vet and the Humane Society. 

Oh and in My opinion I would not give them back a refund. Both you and Toby have been through alot and it is not your fault that they did not wait to see about the scholarship before making this decsion. I would love to see someone here take him!


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## Buuddy (Jan 11, 2007)

CROAK is a funny word I know... but I gotta be positive about Buddy and give him the best I can while he's here with me, the vets said he won't be around in a few months, so I try to stay positive about it.


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## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

Buuddy said:


> CROAK is a funny word I know... but I gotta be positive about Buddy and give him the best I can while he's here with me, the vets said he won't be around in a few months, so I try to stay positive about it.


While Buddy is still with you why don't you start a new thread and show us some pictures and tell his story.


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## nGoldenm (Jan 17, 2007)

Hali's Mom said:


> I totally agree.............Three pages back.


Oh, I'm sorry. :doh: I just kind of skimmed through some of the pages. I didn't mean to just copy what you said. Sorry about that.


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

poor Toby!!!! To be put on a plane only 3 days ago, to arrive to a new home,where everyone and everything is new to him, and then only to have him put on a plane again....That makes me mad!!! It hard enough for a pup to leave his littermate, mom, and everything that he grew up around.. let alone being put a plane, arriving to a new home, where nothing is firmilar, then being put back on plane again with in only a matter of a few days.. that really makes me mad..
She should have thought about things a little more carefully!!! A dog is a big commitment!!! 
If it was me.. I would tell her she will receive a refund, but Toby's traveling expenses will be deducted, and her puppy deposit is not refundable.
I would also book Toby on the most expensive flight too.Not caring how much she got back!
Personally I don't think she deserves a refund!


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Baileysmom said:


> I have been reading this thread to catch up. I agree that you should definitely get the puppy back asap. I would only offer them a partial refund. If they were living off of her graduate school scholarship, they really shouldn't have made the commitment in the first place. Scholarships are not ever a guaranteed thing. If you make the travel arrangements, are you required to give a credit card? If so, I would have them make the arrangements from their end.



No, you pay the fee when you drop them off to be shipped.


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## Booker (Nov 14, 2006)

Wow, I've just read through this whole thread...I want Toby too


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

I would book the flight myself, and take it out of her "refund" I would book Toby on the most expensive flight I could find, and tell her thats the best you could do, especially on such short notice.. Sounds dirty, but for all that poor Toby has to go through...I wouldn't care about much or how little she got back. Her problems wouldn't be my concern, getting Toby back safely would be my concern. 
Give her a copy the receipt for her own personal records to prove that was the amount of the flight. I would also take off a portion for the paperwork, because you already have the paper done for her, which means now your going to have to pay to have the paper work re-done or transfered back over to you.
No refund on the puppy deposit, if she paid the full amount, I'd still keep the amount that you require for the puppy deposit.
Giving her back as little as possiable..
I still think she doesn't derserve a refund. Because I agree with what someone else had said, about her most likely not giving you the full story. It seems she kind of jumped into getting a puppy with out thinking of the commitment that is involved in owning and raising a dog/puppy.
I am also not saying she is a terriable person. I do not know her so I can't judge her in that way... but I think she really should have thought things through more carefully.


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## Booker (Nov 14, 2006)

Anything new about Toby yet? I'm sitting on pins and needles lol...Booker would love a playmate


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Toby is booked on a flight home tomorrow afternoon. I will feel alot less stressed out once I have him back. I dont plan on making any decisions regarding his new home until I have him back and have looked him over. I will keep everyone updated though. I appreciate all of the support and advice I have received about this issue. I means a great deal to me to have everyone on this forum to talk to! I dont know what I would have done without everyones input!

THANKS!
Becky


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

well cool. I'm happy he's coming home.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> well cool. I'm happy he's coming home.



Me too! His flight lands at 4:45 so it will probably be early evening before I get him home.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Aww, I'm glad you got him on a flight so soon! Poor little guy.


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

I am so glad Toby will be back home with you!!


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## Booker (Nov 14, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> Me too! His flight lands at 4:45 so it will probably be early evening before I get him home.


Let us know as soon as you can how he is when you get home, that's alot to go through :no: ...the poor little guy 

p.s. did you get my phone message?


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Booker said:


> Let us know as soon as you can how he is when you get home, that's alot to go through :no: ...the poor little guy
> 
> p.s. did you get my phone message?



Yes but was slammed at work today, sorry.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> Me too! His flight lands at 4:45 so it will probably be early evening before I get him home.


How are away is Toby? How long is the flight? I was kinda concerned from the start of the thread how they could afford to fly him to you but not to pay for travel certificate etc. 

I am glad they are sending him back so soon though--it is best for him.


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## Booker (Nov 14, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> Yes but was slammed at work today, sorry.


That's ok...I just wanted to let you know we're interested in taking him, thanks


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Booker said:


> That's ok...I just wanted to let you know we're interested in taking him, thanks



Just so you know, I have had several offers for him today, so I will make the decision once I am sure he is ready.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

njb said:


> How are away is Toby? How long is the flight? I was kinda concerned from the start of the thread how they could afford to fly him to you but not to pay for travel certificate etc.
> 
> I am glad they are sending him back so soon though--it is best for him.



He is in New Jersey. The flight is 2 hours long.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

Booker said:


> Wow, I've just read through this whole thread...I want Toby too


Hey...sounds good to me....Katie will have her brother close by


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> Just so you know, I have had several offers for him today, so I will make the decision once I am sure he is ready.


It's too bad you didn't have the offers when you mentioned here that he was for sale--would have saved the poor guy a trip to Jersey and back! I can't wait until you get him home safe and sound


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

LaurJen said:


> It's too bad you didn't have the offers when you mentioned here that he was for sale--would have saved the poor guy a trip to Jersey and back! I can't wait until you get him home safe and sound


BUT i did say I wanted him in December but it was Xmas time and not the right time for me to be purchasing a puppy. So telesmith knows i was interested at that time as well.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> BUT i did say I wanted him in December but it was Xmas time and not the right time for me to be purchasing a puppy. So telesmith knows i was interested at that time as well.



Did you call dibs? LOL
____________


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Well i was interested back when he was available. So we'll see what happens. i'm sure she'll pick him a great home.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> Well i was interested back when he was available. So we'll see what happens. i'm sure she'll pick him a great home. (as long as it's mine)


She will ..........................


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> Well i was interested back when he was available. So we'll see what happens. i'm sure she'll pick him a great home.



I will do my very best to place him into a great home.


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## Booker (Nov 14, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> She will ..........................


Of course she will, and Toby will be forever loved and happy wherever he goes


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

This is the addition that I am going to put into my contract - what do you think?

We will always take our puppy back and attempt to place it in a good approved responsible home. If you find that you cannot keep this puppy for any reason, buyer is not entitled to a refund / replacement of any kind. A commitment for the life of the dog should be made prior to purchasing it.


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## Booker (Nov 14, 2006)

That sounds perfect .........


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

well put........my breeder has a return policy in her contract as well. If for any reason i'd need to place Lexie into a new home, they want her back. I totally understand that. I would NEVER do it but i understand her stating that.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I am also going to include this:

If the dog is sent back to the breeder for any reason, the AKC papers must be given to the breeder with a signed transfer.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> This is the addition that I am going to put into my contract - what do you think?
> 
> We will always take our puppy back and attempt to place it in a good approved responsible home. If you find that you cannot keep this puppy for any reason, buyer is not entitled to a refund / replacement of any kind. A commitment for the life of the dog should be made prior to purchasing it.



I was thinking about this, and don't think it's a good idea. It would just drive some people to sell the dog. Why should they give it back to you and get nothing? I'm not saying that you_ should _give a refund, just that you shouldn't mention that nothing will be forthcoming. That way they would have to contact you to see what they might get, and you'd at least be "on alert" that they have issues with the dog.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> I was thinking about this, and don't think it's a good idea. It would just drive some people to sell the dog. Why should they give it back to you and get nothing? I'm not saying that you_ should _give a refund, just that you shouldn't mention that nothing will be forthcoming. That way they would have to contact you to see what they might get, and you'd at least be "on alert" that they have issues with the dog.


I see your point....Hmmmmm....


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

I do as well. Maybe not put the refund part in there. Gosh Laurjen, you're so smart!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you graduate the 6th grade too? LOL


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> well put........my breeder has a return policy in her contract as well. If for any reason i'd need to place Lexie into a new home, they want her back. I totally understand that. I would NEVER do it but i understand her stating that.


Right... most breeders state they will take a dog back at any time... but they don't add the clause about "no refunds." Like I said, if I was the type of person who didn't want my dog and wanted to get rid of it, then I'd probably be the type to sell it, rather than give it back to the breeder and get zero $. If I truly cared about my dog, then I wouldn't be looking for my money back anyway....so the clause becomes irrelevant.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> I do as well. Maybe not put the refund part in there. Gosh Laurjen, you're so smart!!!!!!!!!!!!! Did you graduate the 6th grade too? LOL


I did! I was class valedik... validict... vallidict.... I was class TOP PERSON.


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## maryjean (Jul 13, 2005)

Wow....I'm sorry to hear that Toby has to go through all the travel time! I'm sure you will find the perfect home for him! For some reason God decided that your little bundle of fur was needed somewhere else. As far as the refund...im not sure what I would do. 

11 years ago my now gone Stormy had pups. I thought I had found good homes for all of them. A couple of days after one went home I got a call asking me if I would take one back....I agreed....he is that white faced one on my pic there...grins. I got a sister of his back when she was around a year old. The people had a major change in their life and called to see if we could help....She ended up staying with us until her death at 10 years of age.

mary jean


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

About 10 years ago we had purchased a German Shorthaired Pointer. We ended up not being able to keep him - we returned him to the breeder and received no refund.


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## MarleyLove (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm really glad he's going to be back safe with you. Hopefully the little guy will be no worse for wear. I vote for Lexie'sMom or Booker to be his new mama! That way we will be guaranteed pics and updates.  Be sure to post that he's home safe when you get the time.....


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

MarleyLove said:


> I'm really glad he's going to be back safe with you. Hopefully the little guy will be no worse for wear. I vote for Lexie'sMom or Booker to be his new mama! That way we will be guaranteed pics and updates.  Be sure to post that he's home safe when you get the time.....



I will definitely let everyone know when is home safe!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> About 10 years ago we had purchased a German Shorthaired Pointer. We ended up not being able to keep him - we returned him to the breeder and received no refund.


It still does not make it right. I can see withholding a deposit (assuming it was a relatively small amount in relationship to the price of the dog), as the assumption would be that you turned other homes away, since you thought he was placed. I no longer take deposits, as I don't want people feeling like they have to take my puppy just because they already have a deposit on it. I used to take a $100 deposit on an $700 dog, but have not done so in a couple of years.

And of course, I am assuming they paid for his flight back to you, as that also would only be fair.

Linda
Tahnee Golden Retrievers
Endeavor Golden Retrievers


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I am glad he is coming home-and so quickly! He will probably be happy to see you!

Linda
Tahnee Golden Retrievers
Endeavor Golden Retrievers


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Tahnee GR said:


> I am glad he is coming home-and so quickly! He will probably be happy to see you!
> 
> Linda
> Tahnee Golden Retrievers
> Endeavor Golden Retrievers


I hope he is happy to see me!


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## Denali and Gretzky's Mom (Jun 26, 2006)

Wow...I just got through reading this whole thread! Poor Toby! I am so glad that he is on his way back to you and then on to his new loving home! I can't imaging giving up a puppy after three days...I couldn't have given up Denali or Gretzky after 3 minutes. I know I am just repeating what others have said, but in the end I am sooo happy Toby is on his way home tomorrow...


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## Brittany (Jul 24, 2006)

So when will Toby get home? I do feel bad for the little guy.....but I'm sure he'll have forgotten this whole episode in a short time.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

TahneeGR seems to be the *only* voice of reason in this entire thread. You should be happy these people contacted you instead of dropping him off at the pound OR selling him for whatever they could get for him. Now you want to punish them by not refunding the purchase price.....that seems very unethical. Be thankful you are getting Toby back.

These people are entitled to a full refund less the deposit (only if it was stated that it was non-refundable) and less the cost of shipment back to you....if you paid for it. I wouldn't think twice about refunding the money.


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## Sivin (Nov 23, 2006)

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and take their e-mail on face value. Without knowing these people personally it's difficult to say whether their hearts are in the right place or they just changed their minds. But taking it at face value, they see how difficult a pup is going to be, they know how busy they will be and also how short of money, and this is the only solution. It would break my heart to give up a little bear of a dog but if they dove in too quickly in the first place maybe this is what resulted. I would give a partial refund after the dog is returned. A full refund would be nice but IMO not necessary because of all the investment you put into Toby.
Helaine


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I think maybe I'd decide on the refund AFTER you find another buyer for Toby, minus your additional costs.....


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## Buffy & Abby's Mom (Nov 27, 2005)

I've been reading on this but not had a chance to reply. I'll be glad when Toby gets back to you safe & sound! My opinion is to wait til you see that he is indeed safe & sound then give them back their money (all except their deposit and any additional expenses you incurred). Toby is still young and very purchaseable by any new people who want to give him his forever home. It sounds as if you have people already who are wanting him.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> TahneeGR seems to be the *only* voice of reason in this entire thread. You should be happy these people contacted you instead of dropping him off at the pound OR selling him for whatever they could get for him. Now you want to punish them by not refunding the purchase price.....that seems very unethical. Be thankful you are getting Toby back.
> 
> .


I wouldn't call it "unethical." There was no written refund policy that is being reneged upon... no one is doing anything "underhanded," or trying to get more than what they are due. I can see both sides of the argument (refunding or not), but I think a breeder has to come up with whatever policy s/he feels comfortable with--even if it's decided on a case-by-case basis.

I think this situation would have bothered me less if the person was local and honestly said that they made a mistake by getting a puppy--that it was too much and they couldn't handle it. But the story that was given sounds fishy and, more importantly, they made the poor puppy suffer the trauma of being shipped on a plane... not once, but twice. Yes, he'll get over it, but he still had to experience fear for several hours... and for that I think there should be some monetary consequences. It's not like returning a pair of shoes; it's a life--one that's affected by people's thoughtless whims. If the buyers get all their money back then I think they would have no problem doing this again when the mood strikes them to get a new puppy.

As you can see, I'd make a terrible breeder because I couldn't put up with flaky people


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> I wouldn't call it "unethical." There was no written refund policy that is being reneged upon... no one is doing anything "underhanded," or trying to get more than what they are due. I can see both sides of the argument (refunding or not), but I think a breeder has to come up with whatever policy s/he feels comfortable with--even if it's decided on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> I think this situation would have bothered me less if the person was local and honestly said that they made a mistake by getting a puppy--that it was too much and they couldn't handle it. But the story that was given sounds fishy and, more importantly, they made the poor puppy suffer the trauma of being shipped on a plane... not once, but twice. Yes, he'll get over it, but he still had to experience fear for several hours... and for that I think there should be some monetary consequences. It's not like returning a pair of shoes; it's a life--one that's affected by people's thoughtless whims. If the buyers get all their money back then I think they would have no problem doing this again when the mood strikes them to get a new puppy.
> 
> As you can see, I'd make a terrible breeder because I couldn't put up with flaky people



Taking some ones money and giving them nothing in return is stealing and yes unethical as a breeder. I would think that Telsmith1 would want to protect her reputation as reputable breeder. Whatever excuse the buyer gave has NOTHING to do with refunding the purchase price. Bottom line is they do not want Toby. It's not like they had Toby for 3 years and one day decide to say "Hey, we no longer want him" Then, I do not feel they deserve a refund. But it's been ONLY 3 days. Suck it up, return the money, lesson learned! I don't think Toby was traumatized. I have had many, many puppies shipped ot me and they came bounding out of the crate unscathed.

I just retruned $1100 to a buyer that decided he didn't want the puppy at the last minute. So according to most of you I could have kept his money. Gee, I don't think that will fly in small claims court.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Taking some ones money and giving them nothing in return is stealing and yes unethical as a breeder. I would think that Telsmith1 would want to protect her reputation as reputable breeder. Whatever excuse the buyer gave has NOTHING to do with refunding the purchase price. Bottom line is they do not want Toby. It's not like they had Toby for 3 years and one day decide to say "Hey, we no longer want him" Then, I do not feel they deserve a refund. But it's been ONLY 3 days. Suck it up, return the money, lesson learned! I don't think Toby was traumatized. I have had many, many puppies shipped ot me and they came bounding out of the crate unscathed.
> 
> I just retruned $1100 to a buyer that decided he didn't want the puppy at the last minute. So according to most of you I could have kept his money. Gee, I don't think that will fly in small claims court.


Well, imo and i'm not a breeder, it's totally up to telesmith and it's not for us to say it's right or wrong. She is going to do as she feels necessary i'm sure. So if she does NOT give back the money, it's not my place or the place of others to say she's a bad breeder for doing so. It has to be a hard decision to make. I'm sure she'll do the right thing whatever that may be.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> I just retruned $1100 to a buyer that decided he didn't want the puppy at the last minute. So according to most of you I could have kept his money. Gee, I don't think that will fly in small claims court.



I would not give a buyer a full refund. There has to be something that also protects the breeder from having people say they want a puppy, then saying "nah" at the last minute, after other potential buyers have been turned away. I know when we were looking at breeders, deposits were required that were NOT refundable. This was usually half the purchase price ($500 or more). I agree with that policy, as I think it cuts out the less-than-serious buyers. I know it really made us think hard about our decision.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> I would not give a buyer a full refund. There has to be something that also protects the breeder from having people say they want a puppy, then saying "nah" at the last minute, after other potential buyers have been turned away. I know when we were looking at breeders, deposits were required that were NOT refundable. This was usually half the purchase price ($500 or more). I agree with that policy, as I think it cuts out the less-than-serious buyers. I know it really made us think hard about our decision.



Wait a minute...protect the breeder? Protect her from what? As far as I know she is getting Toby back and has lost NOTHING. Telsmith1 can also sell Toby again to a more stable home. And if she does that she will not only have kept the $$$ from the first buyer but also the $$$ from the second buyer. You see nothing wrong with that??? Wow, what is this world coming too:no:


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## Rocky (Dec 28, 2006)

I have been reading and wanted to voice my opinion....

We are not talking about a pair of shoes here. We are talking about a live thing that has feelings. This is an adoption and should be thought of that way. If you were going through a baby adoption, you would not get a 100% refund if you decided you didn't want the baby anymore! 
I can see both ends of it, but lets not compare a pup to a pair of shoes. It is totally the breeders decision and I can respect whatever she decides. None of the breeders I talked to would have given me a full refund, they all had said that the first deposit was non-refundable and it is for their own good, so when something like this happens, they get some compensation for their time and effort and hardship. 
This is just my opinion.


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

I guess I'll jump in .....

I would refund the purchase less all of the expenses involved.(and that could include time off from work, mileage to and from the airport, parking.etc.) I think this situation is the exception and not the rule. A clean and clear return policy will eliminate the problem in the future. 

On a brighter note, I hope this little guy ends up with the best family possible He certainly deserves it!


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Taking some ones money and giving them nothing in return is stealing and yes unethical as a breeder. I would think that Telsmith1 would want to protect her reputation as reputable breeder. Whatever excuse the buyer gave has NOTHING to do with refunding the purchase price. Bottom line is they do not want Toby. It's not like they had Toby for 3 years and one day decide to say "Hey, we no longer want him" Then, I do not feel they deserve a refund. But it's been ONLY 3 days. Suck it up, return the money, lesson learned! I don't think Toby was traumatized. I have had many, many puppies shipped ot me and they came bounding out of the crate unscathed.
> 
> I just retruned $1100 to a buyer that decided he didn't want the puppy at the last minute. So according to most of you I could have kept his money. Gee, I don't think that will fly in small claims court.


Ummmm....my husband and I bought a puppy from Telsmith1 and she is a darn good breeder. I really think this thread should be closed now. 

Thank You!


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Yep, it is the breeder's decision and in the end she has to live with it. Personally, I need to sleep at night so I would have given a full refund. Hey, but that's me  

I hope Toby finds a great new home and all goes well.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

The purpse of this thread was only to ask opinions on how to deal with this. It wasn't intended for us to say she is or is not a good breeder. This has went the wrong direction. We've all voiced our opinions and that's just what they are OPINIONS so let's just wait and see what telesmith would like to do. It's her decision ONLY not ours and i will NOT judge her or anyone else for that matter in this type of situation.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Yep, it is the breeder's decision and in the end she has to live with it. Personally, I need to sleep at night so I would have given a full refund. Hey, but that's me
> 
> I hope Toby finds a great new home and all goes well.



Your quote is good all except the part about sleeping well at night. Like if she doesn't do as YOU would do that makes her not a good breeder. IMO that's BS.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> The purpse of this thread was only to ask opinions on how to deal with this. It wasn't intended for us to say she is or is not a good breeder. This has went the wrong direction. We've all voiced our opinions and that's just what they are OPINIONS so let's just wait and see what telesmith would like to do. It's her decision ONLY not ours and i will NOT judge her or anyone else for that matter in this type of situation.


Thank you very much. I couldnt have said that better myself


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Telesmith was faced with a dilemma and asked for *opinions *about what she should do, not *judgements *about her character. Sheesh already. I hope she makes whatever decision she is happy with and _doesn't tell us what she decided_. The main thing is Toby will soon be back and safe.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Wait a minute...protect the breeder? Protect her from what? As far as I know she is getting Toby back and has lost NOTHING. Telsmith1 can also sell Toby again to a more stable home. And if she does that she will not only have kept the $$$ from the first buyer but also the $$$ from the second buyer. You see nothing wrong with that??? Wow, what is this world coming too:no:


I have lost nothing? I have lost my time to and from the airport twice, time off work to take him to the vet for the health certificate, etc..So yes, I have lost something. 

I am a **** good breeder and I will not let anyone step in and say that I am not because a puppy buyer decided to return a puppy to me because they changed their mind!

How on earth will I know if Toby has been exposed to something? Or mistreated while he was there?* If *I decided to give a refund - it will be less the $200 NON-Refundable deposit, less a vet visit to have him looked at to make sure he is ok, less my time and gas to and from the airport twice and less my hourly rate to leave work to take him to the vet. Then if he has no lingering temperament issues that he did not have when he left, I will THINK about giving them the difference back.


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## ontariogolden (Oct 24, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> I have lost nothing? I have lost my time to and from the airport twice, time off work to take him to the vet for the health certificate, etc..So yes, I have lost something.
> 
> I am a **** good breeder and I will not let anyone step in and say that I am not because a puppy buyer decided to return a puppy to me because they changed their mind!
> 
> How on earth will I know if Toby has been exposed to something? Or mistreated while he was there?* If *I decided to give a refund - it will be less the $200 NON-Refundable deposit, less a vet visit to have him looked at to make sure he is ok, less my time and gas to and from the airport twice and less my hourly rate to leave work to take him to the vet. Then if he has no lingering temperament issues that he did not have when he left, I will THINK about giving them the difference back.


Perfectly said. 

It is totally up to you what you want to do about the refund. I think something could be given back but definately less all other expenses. Delmarva suggested that you would be a less reputable breeder if you didn't give the refund. I say the opposite... if you give full refund and then lose money off of it because you were doing things FOR the dog, it is almost turns into what can I do to ensure I still get customers? You know what I'm saying? I think you're totally correct about only giving back what's left, if anything at all. And THAT in itself makes you a reputable breeder because it proves you put your dogs first.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

ontariogolden said:


> Perfectly said.
> 
> It is totally up to you what you want to do about the refund. I think something could be given back but definately less all other expenses. Delmarva suggested that you would be a less reputable breeder if you didn't give the refund. I say the opposite... if you give full refund and then lose money off of it because you were doing things FOR the dog, it is almost turns into what can I do to ensure I still get customers? You know what I'm saying? I think you're totally correct about only giving back what's left, if anything at all. And THAT in itself makes you a reputable breeder because it proves you put your dogs first.


Thank you for that - I appreciate it greatly.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Just an update, he has been dropped off at the airport to wait for his flight. The airline has confirmed it.


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## Hali's Mom (Oct 5, 2006)

After all is said...............I'm just glad to know that Toby has someone concerned with his well being and that the breeder is legitimitly concerned with her litters well being. Can't wait for the post when he is back in MI. It will be a long day for us all:wavey: Thanks telsmith


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> Just an update, he has been dropped off at the airport to wait for his flight. The airline has confirmed it.


Oh yippee!! Can't wait!

(And I apologize for misspelling your screen name over and over--sorry!)


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## Rocky (Dec 28, 2006)

Hali's Mom said:


> After all is said...............I'm just glad to know that Toby has someone concerned with his well being and that the breeder is legitimitly concerned with her litters well being. Can't wait for the post when he is back in MI. It will be a long day for us all:wavey: Thanks telsmith



Well said


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> Oh yippee!! Can't wait!
> 
> (And I apologize for misspelling your screen name over and over--sorry!)



LOL, It is quite alright!


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## Baileysmom (Aug 5, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> Just an update, he has been dropped off at the airport to wait for his flight. The airline has confirmed it.


Poor guy! That is a long time to wait at the airport in a crate.....


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

Anxiously awaiting his arrival back to you Becky. Thank you for being a great breeder and thinking of his well being!!!! I can't wait for the update!!!


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## MarleyLove (Sep 2, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> LOL, It is quite alright!



I've been doing it too. Oops! For some reason I thought it was telesmith1. I don't like the direction the thread has gone either. Too me, a good breeer is one that gets all their clearances, cares about the health of the dogs and does their best to place them in good homes. The rest is a lot of gray area. Telsmith does all the important stuff. When I was looking at breeders, I didn't come across a single one that didn't have a non-refundable deposit. I think, as LaurJen said, this weeds out some of the people who aren't serious. It also compensates the breeder for time he/she may spend on the phone/emailing etc to get the pup into the new home. If it was me, I would refund the money, less the deposit, shipping and some kind of fee for my time and rehoming. But, whatever telsmith choses to do, I won't think less of her for doing it. I think breeding is highly personal, these are her babies as much as they are the mama dog's. So while I wouldn't not give this family any money back, I wouldn't give them the deposit back, as long as it is stated that it is non refundable. 

-ps - Telsmith - (I swear everytime I've typed your name in this post, I've still typed it wrong  ) My thoughts are with Toby today, and I'll be glad to know he's home safe with you. :wavey:


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## Hali's Mom (Oct 5, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> LOL, It is quite alright!


ME TOO (oops):doh: Guess I left out the #1


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> I have lost nothing? I have lost my time to and from the airport twice, time off work to take him to the vet for the health certificate, etc..So yes, I have lost something.
> 
> I am a **** good breeder and I will not let anyone step in and say that I am not because a puppy buyer decided to return a puppy to me because they changed their mind!
> 
> How on earth will I know if Toby has been exposed to something? Or mistreated while he was there?* If *I decided to give a refund - it will be less the $200 NON-Refundable deposit, less a vet visit to have him looked at to make sure he is ok, less my time and gas to and from the airport twice and less my hourly rate to leave work to take him to the vet. Then if he has no lingering temperament issues that he did not have when he left, I will THINK about giving them the difference back.



A breeder always has to make sacrafices. Including time off work, running to the Vet and so on. So I guess you pass on all of that cost to your buyers? Just curious. I am certainly entitled to my opinion just as is everyone else. I also do not think that if these people abused Toby they would call you to take him back....that makes no sense at all. You came to this forum asking for advice and if it isn't what you wanted to hear you get pissy. BTW, you ever hear of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. You should not have posted that persons private email on this public forum. You could have just as easily told everyone your dilemma in your own words.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> A breeder always has to make sacrafices. Including time off work, running to the Vet and so on. So I guess you pass on all of that cost to your buyers? Just curious. I am certainly entitled to my opinion just as is everyone else. I also do not think that if these people abused Toby they would call you to take him back....that makes no sense at all. You came to this forum asking for advice and if it isn't what you wanted to hear you get pissy. BTW, you ever hear of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. You should not have posted that persons private email on this public forum. You could have just as easily told everyone your dilemma in your own words.


I am not going to argue with you. You are entitled to your opinion.

I did not post her email address or any personal info, so no harm done.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> A breeder always has to make sacrafices. Including time off work, running to the Vet and so on. So I guess you pass on all of that cost to your buyers? Just curious. I am certainly entitled to my opinion just as is everyone else. I also do not think that if these people abused Toby they would call you to take him back....that makes no sense at all. You came to this forum asking for advice and if it isn't what you wanted to hear you get pissy. BTW, you ever hear of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. You should not have posted that persons private email on this public forum. You could have just as easily told everyone your dilemma in your own words.



You are right, she came looking for ADVISE. Don't be upset if she doesn't use yours!!!! It's nothing personal i'm sure but not everyone will agree with you or myself for that matter. 

How can you groan my post for me waiting for an update? You aren't curious about an update? If you aren't concerned then don't read this thread. 

Gosh, if you were worried about Telsmith's reputation as a breeder, you should probably worry about your own reputation with your not so nice OPINIONS of others.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

BTW, in my last post i put Not so nice opinions of others. That was NOT my choice of words. I had another one in mind. Actually breeders use it alot i'm sure but i'm not a breeder so i choose not to use LOL  BUT i wasn't calling her that word i was using it as an adjective!!!!!


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> Your quote is good all except the part about sleeping well at night. Like if she doesn't do as YOU would do that makes her not a good breeder. IMO that's BS.


Once again you are reading things into a post that are simply not there. If she is comfortable with her decision not to refund the money then hey...more power to her. Never said she was not a good breeder. Those are your words. What I sad was she should want to protect her reputation of being a reputable breeder (meaning she is....duh). All it takes is one dissatisfied client to cause a lot of damage.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> You are right, she came looking for ADVISE. Don't be upset if she doesn't use yours!!!! It's nothing personal i'm sure but not everyone will agree with you or myself for that matter.
> 
> How can you groan my post for me waiting for an update? You aren't curious about an update? If you aren't concerned then don't read this thread.
> 
> Gosh, if you were worried about Telsmith's reputation as a breeder, you should probably worry about your own reputation with your not so nice OPINIONS of others.


SOrry posted twice..........


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> You are right, she came looking for ADVISE. Don't be upset if she doesn't use yours!!!! It's nothing personal i'm sure but not everyone will agree with you or myself for that matter.
> 
> How can you groan my post for me waiting for an update? You aren't curious about an update? If you aren't concerned then don't read this thread.
> 
> Gosh, if you were worried about Telsmith's reputation as a breeder, you should probably worry about your own reputation with your not so nice OPINIONS of others.


HA HA HA...Thaks for the laugh Lexie's Mom...girl you really crack me up :


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Taking some ones money and giving them nothing in return is stealing and yes unethical as a breeder. I would think that Telsmith1 would want to protect her reputation as reputable breeder. Whatever excuse the buyer gave has NOTHING to do with refunding the purchase price. Bottom line is they do not want Toby. It's not like they had Toby for 3 years and one day decide to say "Hey, we no longer want him" Then, I do not feel they deserve a refund. But it's been ONLY 3 days. Suck it up, return the money, lesson learned! I don't think Toby was traumatized. I have had many, many puppies shipped ot me and they came bounding out of the crate unscathed.
> 
> I just retruned $1100 to a buyer that decided he didn't want the puppy at the last minute. So according to most of you I could have kept his money. Gee, I don't think that will fly in small claims court.


Protecting her reputation as a breeder--- i didn't type that or make that up, you did. So if that's not what you meant, please explain it so us STUPID people understand it.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Uggggghhhh. I didnt realize this was going to get so out of hand. All I asked for was some opinions on what to do since I had never dealt with this type of situation before. I appreciate all of the advice from everyone and I will take ALL of it into consideration.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

If I sold a dog, or placed a rescue with a $200 adoption fee, if they are idiots who didn't plan or consider before adopting the dog, I would never refund the money! I don't give refunds for being an idiot or being careless when getting a dog.

I don't think Telsmith owes them ANYTHING.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

The only thing I'll add is that I learned that the hard way. I now have a written part of my adoption agreement. NO REFUNDS under any circumstances unless I determine personally to make an exception. Which I would in some incredibly extreme situation. NOT this one, though. No way in heck!


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## Rocky (Dec 28, 2006)

Is there a way to close this thread? I think things are getting out of hand. I think telsmith1 got all the advice she needs (and then some). And once Toby is home I am sure she will let us know he is home safe and sound.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Lexie's Mom said:


> Protecting her reputation as a breeder--- i didn't type that or make that up, you did. So if that's not what you meant, please explain it so us STUPID people understand it.


Duh...I must be stupid also because Ihave no clue as to what you are getting at.

It seems to me that you really want Toby in a bad way. I'm sure Telsmith1 thinks you are a great person without kissing so much a**...  

This has turned into a lot of pointless and meaningless dribble....on everyone's part including my own.

Best of luck to Toby, Telsmith1 and Toby's new owner...who ever she may be :wavey:


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Rocky said:


> Is there a way to close this thread? I think things are getting out of hand. I think telsmith1 got all the advice she needs (and then some). And once Toby is home I am sure she will let us know he is home safe and sound.


I agree. I'm tired of all the bickering over different opinions and how they're worded. The fact is that we gave our opinions, and telsmith1 can do with them as she wills. Let it go.


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## Baileysmom (Aug 5, 2006)

DelmarvaGold said:


> BTW, you ever hear of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. You should not have posted that persons private email on this public forum. You could have just as easily told everyone your dilemma in your own words.


I have a real problem with people throwing the ECPA around. It was originally set up to protect people from illegal wire taps by the government and against email servers intercepting people's private communication "Without authorization". Sharing a personal email is the same as sharing something that came via US Mail. It is a personal decision to share that information..... As I explain to my young adults -- "Be careful what you put in writing because it can always be shared." Interesting that today people find it much easier to send an email than make a telephone call.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> Uggggghhhh. I didnt realize this was going to get so out of hand. All I asked for was some opinions on what to do since I had never dealt with this type of situation before. I appreciate all of the advice from everyone and I will take ALL of it into consideration.


You have nothing to feel bad about. This is turning into a thread that happened a few weeks ago. Its getting quite ugly. But I am keeping my comments to myself...although its really really hard lol.


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## Katiesmommy (Sep 10, 2006)

Rocky said:


> Is there a way to close this thread? I think things are getting out of hand. I think telsmith1 got all the advice she needs (and then some). And once Toby is home I am sure she will let us know he is home safe and sound.


I highly recommend this....is Joe in the house today? Or Rick....?


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## MarleyLove (Sep 2, 2006)

Or we could all just agree to drop it. That way it could stay open so she can post when Toby gets home. My lips are zipped from this moment forward.


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

We should close this thread for one reason and one reason only....it's distracting people from looking at the new pictures of Carson I posted.   :

...Just trying to lighten things up.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

DelmarvaGold said:


> Duh...I must be stupid also because Ihave no clue as to what you are getting at.
> 
> It seems to me that you really want Toby in a bad way. I'm sure Telsmith1 thinks you are a great person without kissing so much a**...
> 
> ...


I would love to have Toby BUT my concern isn't over who has him. I'm sure he will end up in a great home wherever. I don't kiss a$$ as you say, i'm just stating the truth and called you out on something you are NOW denying. 

My question was only for an explanation of a reputable breeder. You suggested protecting her rep as a breeder and like if she doesn't do as you say, she wouldn't be acceptable. Explain otherwise if this wasn't your intention. 

I also would like to close this thread and I WILL be able to sleep at night!!!


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## VeronicaLovesHerGoldens (May 27, 2005)

I can't wait until the little guy is home safe and sound!!!! I'll be looking forward to hearing about that!


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## Joe (Apr 9, 2005)

Closing of this thread is a reflection of numerous requests from our members asking me to do so. :wave: 
Joe


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