# My Impatience



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

When I got Flip I swore I wouldn't put him in Novice until he was at least 3 years old, which would be next summer. Then I started thinking a few months ago that he'd probably be okay to start novice by January. And then this month I decided if his adventures in nonregular classes went well this summer I could start novice this fall. Last night I started thinking maybe I should just go ahead and show him in Novice in July so I can get novice out of the way and really put all my focus into open and utility.

Skill wise I think he's pretty much where he needs to be for novice and won't get much better than what he's giving me now. But he still has a lot of work to do on his level of focus and distractabililty. I think most mistakes that he gives me at this point in novice would be due to being distracted or over-excited.

So now I'm torn on what to do...on one hand I want him to do well in novice and I don't want to start bad habits in the ring. On the other hand I don't want to hold off forever trying to get him as close to "perfect" as possible and then be disappointed if he doesn't do well.

Would love to hear thoughts from others.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh I forgot to mention one of the reasons I'm getting eager to start showing is because I love showing and miss not being in the ring. I had planned on showing Conner until Flip started showing but that didn't work out and I really miss it. Non regular classes just aren't the same.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

If he can consistantly "Q" in Novice run though's get him out there. Age is just that.. an age. Titan works the same as he did when he was 14 months and that is when I started him. It is the consistency and attitude is what I was looking for. Titan had the following by 2 years old..RN,RA,RE, CD,CAN CD, and NJP.. but totally up to you.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

It's not so much the "Q" that concerns me, it's the smaller, immature dog stuff, like staring at a dog outside the ring and missing an about turn, or leaping up during heeling to take a lick at my watch, etc. Things that aren't really that big of a deal but I don't want him to think they are okay to do either.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think most mistakes that he gives me at this point in novice would be due to being distracted or over-excited.


I think that I'd wait long enough so he's polished enough to not get distracted. Maybe aim for late summer or fall and proof, proof, proof, proof?  

The over-excited part.... well, it's sort of like what I told my one instructor when she pulled all of us aside to give us tips on how to maintain focus and keep the dog worked up and interested between exercises. My response at the time was I generally have to be very careful and keep Jacks settled and calm between exercises, because he has a lot of excitement and nervous energy in the ring waiting to explode. I just handle him differently than I did with my previous golden who did need a lot of "play-praise" to keep him from drifting between exercises.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> . Titan had the following by 2 years old..RN,RA,RE, CD,CAN CD, and NJP.. but totally up to you.


yeah and I've heard from a very reliable source that Titan came with an ungodly amount of focus at a young age. Flip, not so much...:uhoh:


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

That's a tough call to make. I did the opposite of you--I wanted to show my dog younger and not strive for high scores but have since changed that. She too suffers from high distractibility and it really hurt us when I showed her in Rally last fall at 18 months. 

But on the other hand, you have put a lot of work into your dog and you do want to show them at some point. At what age is getting too old to achieve the titles? I know I would rather have a UD than high scores, though both is preferable  I am hoping to show Scout this fall at 2.5, but not later than next spring when she is 3. At that point if I am really going to accomplish some of the things I want to do, I'll have to zoom in on them. She isn't getting younger.

How is he doing at match trials now? The shows might help him with the distractions, although once you have that CD title you can never look back with him.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

...and what do your mentors think?


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> yeah and I've heard from a very reliable source that Titan came with an ungodly amount of focus at a young age. Flip, not so much...:uhoh:


Was that me? 
We played tug right up the ring gates and when we stepped into the ring I kept his focus entirely on me.. That is why I liked Rally to start.(I know there are others rolling eyes right now.. feel free) It is a very good tool that works if you let it. I have to tell you I will do the same exact thing with the new puppy ( if that ever happens). I will do a little agility and UKC obedience again. Just my two cents..


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I do not have many matches to get to that truly simulate the trial environment, so I tend to enter trials with time between the shows to work on any issues that I have not thought of.

My feeling is you never know what dog will be entering the ring with you until you have several trial experiences with that dog; what works, what doesn't work. Where you might need to make adjustments etc. Perfection takes considerable time & creativity, so if that is your goal wait. 

That being said, I waited too long with both Casey & Rowdy. I wanted the high scores and time passed and things happened. So rather than getting the titles accepting less than perfection, they got to practice a lot and I am very proud of them, but their accomplishments are not a matter of public record J My dogs deserved those titles but I just waited too long somehow expecting to find the time to train and proof them to the perfection I wanted.

With my King, I spaced the titles out and he was a very consistent, nice scoring dog who developed quite a following. 

I guess, I would say if working on improving your team is your goal, and you feel you can consistently Q with scores that are not embarrassing, enter him J If you want perfection and feel he still gets distracted, wait.

Lots of help in this response, huh? LOL


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Pat actually.

The problem I have with rally is that so much of my brain is busy worrying where the next sign is that I can't give all the focus I want to my dog, and if I can't focus on my dog then he probably isn't going to give me focus in return. My heeling scores always went down a little after showing in rally with my past dogs...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> But on the other hand, you have put a lot of work into your dog and you do want to show them at some point. At what age is getting too old to achieve the titles?


I would expect this depends on how sound you think your dog will be in a few years or your reasons for wanting to get the dog finished earlier. 

I know somebody who put a ten year old golden rescue through novice after he had gotten his agility and field titles. She was getting him into open when last I heard, though I haven't seen her at the practice classes since early winter. I wasn't sure if she decided to retire him rather than push him, or if I just haven't seen them. 

So I probably wouldn't wait until the dog is a senior if you are hoping to get an OTCH on him...


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would shoot for something in the middle...Respectable scores and better focus. You pick when that would be. Attend lots and lots of fun matches.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Pat actually.
> 
> The problem I have with rally is that so much of my brain is busy worrying where the next sign is that I can't give all the focus I want to my dog, and if I can't focus on my dog then he probably isn't going to give me focus in return. My heeling scores always went down a little after showing in rally with my past dogs...


Then you need to practice the signs more until they are comfortable.
Because you can walk the course a bunch of times to really get to know the course you should have plenty of time to watch your dog... All I am saying is if you wait for an age or the perfect scores you could be waiting a long time. I know every dog is different but you need to get out there and see if those distrctions still happen. My guess as he gets out there more the little nervous things will go away. Titan used to turn his head lick my left hand on the return to heel..


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Megora said:


> I would expect this depends on how sound you think your dog will be in a few years or your reasons for wanting to get the dog finished earlier.
> 
> I know somebody who put a ten year old golden rescue through novice after he had gotten his agility and field titles. She was getting him into open when last I heard, though I haven't seen her at the practice classes since early winter. I wasn't sure if she decided to retire him rather than push him, or if I just haven't seen them.
> 
> So I probably wouldn't wait until the dog is a senior if you are hoping to get an OTCH on him...


It is a hard call to make. My friend recently just got her first UD despite being a professional dog trainers for over 20 years, experience that includes SAR, shutzhund, etc. She's a big perfectionist and has flat coats, and while she had many dogs that could have gotten the title, they never did get those titles before dying because she wanted to show a polished dog. I personally, would rather have the higher title and accomplishment then the perfection if I had to choose. So at some point, you have to weigh what the future will bring and go for it.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

We did a match two nights in a row a couple of weeks ago and here is how it went in novice:

The first night was a little rough. It was also his first full novice run-through ever. I was wearing my new watch so he jumped at it a couple of times on heeling to see what that "toy" was doing on my wrist. He missed my about turn cue twice which caused a bit of a lag both times. When setting up for the off leash heeling he ran off a few steps to check out the food on the mat (we were in a conformation ring) but came back as soon as I called him. A little wide on the start of off leash heeling. On the recall he twisted his head around to see what was going on behind him while I was walking away but snapped back to attention by the time I was in place. So overall not horrible, certainly a Q with somewhere probably around low to mid 90's.

The second night he was outstanding.  No attention problems at all. Very focused, very accurate. Only thing I could pick out he did wrong was he jumped back on his stand instead of staying in heel position, but that is not scorable in novice.

In open he ran out of the ring. :no:


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

So sounds like he settles nicely after he figures the surroundings out. Stop wearing new things and give him plenty of time outside the kennel to see everything. I use a wire kennel and try to get up front so he can see everything going on the in ring.
So you stay and show in Novice for awhile and let him settle into showing . If you have to move up to Open before you are ready go to UKC.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> .
> So I probably wouldn't wait until the dog is a senior if you are hoping to get an OTCH on him...


ROFL, right now I'm just deciding between showing him in novice in July or Sept/Oct. So I think I'm safe as far as him not being a senior before we start!

I'm planning on hitting three different trials in July. So I just need to decide if he would really benefit more from showing in wild card/optional classes a few extra times or if it would make a difference if he went ahead and started novice then. 

We are showing in Beginner's Novice and rally novice this weekend. Pre-novice and Wild Card Novice two weeks after that, and Beginner Novice and WC Novice the week after that. I guess I just need to see how those trials go, but the first trial in July is limited entry so I don't want to get locked out!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Jodie you do a lot more obedience training than me but I'm sorta in the same spot with Slater. I told myself I wouldn't enter him in novice before he could do Utility. Well, I'm way too impatient for that  My goal now is to have him ready for novice by the National in September. I should do some wild card before then but we'll see if that happens. He is a lot less experienced and polished than Flip, for sure.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Then you need to practice the signs more until they are comfortable.
> Because you can walk the course a bunch of times to really get to know the course you should have plenty of time to watch your dog..


I don't know...I've shown in rally a total of 25 times and it never got any better for me. And I think I have a pretty special distinction: there's probably not too many people out there that can claim to have a HIT from obedience and an NQ in rally on the same dog on the same day! (and no, it wasn't because I missed a sign!)


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I don't know...I've shown in rally a total of 25 times and it never got any better for me. And I think I have a pretty special distinction: there's probably not too many people out there that can claim to have a HIT from obedience and an NQ in rally on the same dog on the same day! (and no, it wasn't because I missed a sign!)


 
:doh:.......We really need to get together..LOL!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> :doh:.......We really need to get together..LOL!


I agree! I will send you the plane ticket and you can stay in the cat's bedroom! :


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I agree! I will send you the plane ticket and you can stay in the cat's bedroom! :


 
I dont' share with cat's but Flip can come visit!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

If you think there's a high likelihood that he'll do something goofy that would cost you substantial points, I'd wait. Yes, anything can happen at any time, with any dog, but I never want to step into the ring thinking, "Gawd, I hope he doesn't XYZ..." with "XYZ" being the thing he's currently known for doing, etc.

Quiz is seven. We're just barely getting to entering utility in the next couple months. Two reasons for that: I didn't show him in Nov until he was four - b/c he needed time to mature, I wanted to be as polished as we could be, life majorly interfered with training for a fairly long spell, and he's drivey enough that I wasn't worried about him slowing down. We entered Open at 5.5 years old. I like that all our legs have been between 195 - 199. For utility, my goal is 190+. I'm a perfectionist and know I won't really be happy with legs under 190, so I won't show until I realistically feel we're capable of the consistently earning a score I'd be happy with. Fortunately, my dog enjoys training as much as I do and isn't showing signs of slowing down. [Bows down to the dog gods for this trend to continue...]

I understand wanting to show b/c you enjoy it. What about the Wild Card classes if you don't like Rally? Just something to get you both in the ring in a few different venues so you have a consistent picture of what he can give you performance wise in a real trial setting?


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

I will ditto Stephanie's quote. If you are interested in the competition side of the obedience and want high scores then wait. I've started whining a little bit to my obedience instructor about wanting to get out there but she has made me stick to my guns on wanting to have everything down pat and go right through the titles with no break in between. 
Flip looks great from the YouTubes you have posted and team Jodie/Flip can go in the ring with HIT confidence when you have trained out his distractibility problems.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

I've done it both ways. Waited for perfection before showing novice, and also started showing a novice dog because I couldn't stand not showing. I think that as long as the dog enjoys working and showing, it's not going to make a huge difference. You can polish more along the way if needed. Also probably depends on HOW MANY trials you are talking about. If the dog was going to have a heavy Novice schedule (several weekends), I think it would make more of a difference. Just my two cents worth.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I am going through the same thing right now. I really badly want to show Filly at the specialty in June, but I want good scores. I did a run thru with her a couple weeks ago, and the video looked ok, then I started picking it apart. I have been obsessed with perfection, and that alone is killing me. I also wanted to wait until she was 3, and she turns 3 in July. I showed my Rivet at 16 months, because he could do everything, but I now regret it because he was so immature(but then again he still is). My instructor has been doing great keeping me on track, but I just wanna do this one show, then wait until fall. I suppose it all depends on what you want for scores. With Rivet I was happy with 195.5 when I started showing him, with Filly I am not. I am driving myself NUTS!!!

Hope you can figure out what you want to do! Either way I am sure he will do great!!! He is a nice dog

p.s. I have also gotten looks for playing tug outside the ring.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> polished dog. I personally, would rather have the higher title and accomplishment then the perfection if I had to choose. So at some point, you have to weigh what the future will bring and go for it.


Kind of along that way of thinking, I think it would be nice if the titles had some sort of distinction based on scores. For example, when I did the Working Trial, you could earn a WCD at the novice level or a WCDex depending on your score. A perfect score was 100 and I think anything over 95 had the "excellent" distinction added to it. There's a HUGE difference between a performance that scores 170 and one that scores 198.5, yet at the end of the day, both dogs take home the same title. So, if you obtained a certain level title with all three Qs above a certain score, your title had a "honors" distinction of some sort.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Kind of along that way of thinking, I think it would be nice if the titles had some sort of distinction based on scores. For example, when I did the Working Trial, you could earn a WCD at the novice level or a WCDex depending on your score. A perfect score was 100 and I think anything over 95 had the "excellent" distinction added to it. There's a HUGE difference between a performance that scores 170 and one that scores 198.5, yet at the end of the day, both dogs take home the same title. So, if you obtained a certain level title with all three Qs above a certain score, your title had a "honors" distinction of some sort.


Oh I agree, because once a dog is gone and passed unless someone remembers no one will know if s/he was a 200 dog or a 170 dog. Another reason why at some point I would just choose to go for the titles then never get them because I wanted higher scores.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have a different perspective with this dog than I did with my others. With Conner and Colby I would not put them in novice until I knew they were capable of scores of 198+.

With Flip I'm looking at the bigger picture, my priority for novice is effort and attitude. I'm not as worried about a polished performance, the polish will come in time if the effort and attitude are there. If I get super high scores in novice that is wonderful, but if I get lower scores because my dog hits me on a front, bounces some on the heeling, or over does his rear on his left turns, it's not as big of a deal to me. He can settle into smoother performances over time. What I don't want, however, is a dog that gets the zoomies on off lead heeling (do you know how many novice goldens I have seen do that?) or something else ridicuous that would make him think it's okay to act a fool in the ring.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I have a different perspective with this dog than I did with my others. With Conner and Colby I would not put them in novice until I knew they were capable of scores of 198+.
> 
> With Flip I'm looking at the bigger picture, my priority for novice is effort and attitude. I'm not as worried about a polished performance, the polish will come in time if the effort and attitude are there. If I get super high scores in novice that is wonderful, but if I get lower scores because my dog hits me on a front, bounces some on the heeling, or over does his rear on his left turns, it's not as big of a deal to me. He can settle into smoother performances over time. What I don't want, however, is a dog that gets the zoomies on off lead heeling (do you know how many novice goldens I have seen do that?) or something else ridicuous that would make him think it's okay to act a fool in the ring.


I am glad to see you are focusing on Flip and not the score. With the amount of showing you want to do.. that is everything. Your Sat and Sunday scene you were stating is great news. Sounds like he will settle into working after the inital excited stage. You will have to watch your couple shows coming up to see how long it takes him to get that working brain on. Make sure you move to the next exercise and get set up to get his attention..Control between is just as important as control in the exercise. As you get to trust him then you can add praise back into the process. That is what I used Rally for. I knew exactly how much praise got him too high to work and what works best for us.
Susan.. Titan tugs with no sounds.. so I have never had anyone say anything and I hang out with people who would rip me a new one if it was a problem..LOL!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I am 25 pounds lighter than the last time I showed, hope my dogs can still find heel position! :bowl:


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I am 25 pounds lighter than the last time I showed, hope my dogs can still find heel position! :bowl:


Wow good for you..nice!


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I'm nowhere near beginning, but in the dog sports I've participated in I've always opted for waiting for the dog's maturity to catch up to the task rather than push a dog who's not at the necessary maturity level.
I've seen good dogs go sour and turn off or burn out. Max is enjoying an extended puppyhood. He's almost one. We haven't started because during our basic work at home he's still flighty.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Wow good for you..nice!


yeah, people are starting to make fun of my now-baggy pants. But who has money to buy new pants when I have dog shows to enter?!


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Titan1 said:


> Susan.. Titan tugs with no sounds.. so I have never had anyone say anything and I hang out with people who would rip me a new one if it was a problem..LOL!


Rivet wasn't making sound either. The people that gave me dirty looks were people whos dogs didn't know attention, or heel.

The last time I showed Rivet, he gave be a beautifully centered front with his front paws on my shoulders! I still laugh when I think about it!


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I must add that between Loisiana, and Titan, you guys are really making me want to show my girl sooner than later!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Yes Michelle has been a very bad influence on showing soon. She's almost got me convinced to mail out my entry for July!


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> Yes Michelle has been a very bad influence on showing soon. She's almost got me convinced to mail out my entry for July!


LOL! That made me laugh so hard I started coughing!! I keep pushing back when I am going to show, was Jan, then April, then June, now Oct. I am really aching for June though!!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Yes Michelle has been a very bad influence on showing soon. She's almost got me convinced to mail out my entry for July!


I can't believe it is not sent in yet... I need to keep working on you I see!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Stretchdrive said:


> LOL! That made me laugh so hard I started coughing!! I keep pushing back when I am going to show, was Jan, then April, then June, now Oct. I am really aching for June though!!


Susan.. stop waffleing and just GO FOR IT! I will be ringside to cheer you on!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Titan1 said:


> Susan.. stop waffleing and just GO FOR IT! I will be ringside to cheer you on!


Maybe I should have asked who your instructor is... so I know who to avoid? LOL!


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