# Munchausen syndrome involving pets by proxies



## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Some dogs have it bad. Only way to catch these people is by evidence they leave behind such as their post on pet forums. Then the Humane Society will have a case. 


Frequent change of veterinarian (“veterinarian shopping”). Serial Incidents, Deliberate Injury,


_Arch Dis Child2002;87:263 doi:10.1136/adc.87.3.263 _

Letter
*Munchausen syndrome involving pets by proxies*


H S Tucker1,
F Finlay2,
S Guiton3
+ Author Affiliations

1Paediatric Specialist Registrar, Royal United Hospital, Bath, UK
2Consultant Community Paediatrician, Child Health Department, Bath NHS House, Newbridge Hill, Bath BA1 3QE, UK
3Veterinary Surgeon, 12 Raby Place, Bath BA2 4EH, UK



Munchausen syndrome
pet
In a letter in 1998 we drew attention to the fact that there was no reference to Munchausen syndrome by proxy described in the veterinary literature.1 Recently Munro and Thrusfield from the Royal School of Veterinary Studies, University of Edinburgh have published a paper in the _Journal of Small Animal Practice_, documenting the first series of reports of suspected Munchausen syndrome by proxy involving pets as proxies.2 In the study, 1000 randomly selected veterinary surgeons received a questionnaire specifically asking for details of their perceptions and experience of non-accidental injury in animals. A total of 448 cases were described, six of which were described by the respondents as possible Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Three other cases were identified by the authors as possible Munchausen syndrome by proxy. The nine cases are all described and show similarity to child proxy incidents. Common features include frequent requests for clinical review (up to four times in one day in one case), and frequent change of veterinarian (“veterinarian shopping”). In some cases the mode of clinical presentation was similar to that seen in paediatric practice, for example, presentation with haematuria or uncontrolled fitting. In one case a dog owner was insistent that a neighbour had poisoned his dog, but he was later convicted for the attempted poisoning of his child; in court it was revealed that he had previously attempted to poison two other pets treated by other veterinarians. In another case a cat owner gave an incoherent history with regard to the cause of injuries, and postoperative trauma occurred to the intramedullary pin. Repeated problems arose until the cat was admitted. 
The authors conclude that their findings should not only inform the small animal practitioner about a curious syndrome but also form the basis of broader debate in comparison between the experience of the veterinary and medical professions. Communication between child protection agencies, veterinary surgeons, and the RSPCA is beginning to occur in different parts of the country. Such liaison should be welcomed by paediatricians.


Munchausen syndrome involving pets by proxies -- Tucker et al. 87 (3): 263 -- Archives of Disease in Childhood


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I already know this whole threads revolves around me and my dogs issues. You have made that clear in your previous PM's. 

Its very sad you think I am making up my dogs health problems and delibratly hurting him. Also, people change vets because they dont like the care on vet is providing. I left my two previous vets because they refused to test his thyroid (this new vet found out it is in fact a thyroid problem) and how they handled my nervous dog by having multiple staff members retrain him and yell at him to remain still. "Veterinary Shopping" is a good thing had I not of done that I wouldnt of found out my dog had a thyroid problem.


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

ummm lets see...I did not read your article, didn't need to. I had to take my Siberian Husky to 4 different Vets in about 4 months time to get to the bottom of his auto immune problems. Does that mean I have Munchausen? I had to take Layla to two different Vets due to my fear of giving her a combo vaccine...do I have Munchausen? I had to take Dream to two different Vets the second time she tore her ACL, do I have Munchausen? Cally my Lab pup has been to two different Vets, due to the fact my regular Vet does not take appts. and I needed to be available for my parents. Do I have Munchausen?

We do what we need to do for our pets, sometimes it means shopping around for the right Vet for the problem. There are a lot of people on this forum with Munchausen I am sure...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

May I ask the point of this thread???


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't know the purpose of this thread, but it is a topic that I find interesting when it concerns children and pets. Actually, at work last week, we were discussing this in regards to a client. As an example, she brings the dog in for ear cleaning when the ears are perfectly clean...


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I don't know the purpose of this thread, but it is a topic that I find interesting when it concerns children and pets. Actually, at work last week, we were discussing this in regards to a client. As an example, she brings the dog in for ear cleaning when the ears are perfectly clean...


Not only do dogs have to watch out for Police, but their own owners. Never thought we have guilty owners on here. lol

I came across this and thought we should be all aware of it.

Lincoln_16 


As for PM,s, I have know clue what your talking about.

You should not be talking about PM,s on public forums

12. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will not post private messages on GRF. Discussions that have taken place in private should not be posted on the public forums, unless you have received permission from the user involved to post it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There is an alarming dog owner in the northeast, who comes up repeatedly over theyears bc of fears she has this. Absolutely horrible things happen to her dogs (bizarre deaths, dismemberments, losses) but then she searches for new puppies from new breeders. It's such a horrific disease, though I am not sure I understand it. Is it a form of borderline personality disorder???


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I think several of us with special needs dogs (I've had 3 in my life) sometimes feel as though we are going to the vet constantly with our dogs over things that pop up unexpectedly. 

I also think if a vet thought an owner was actively harming their pet that vet would contact the local authorities, after discussing their concerns with the owner. 

I honestly don't think the vets we use for our dogs think we are making things up or creating the problems, as they usually go out of their way to let us know they feel like we caught something at the earliest stages. I've also been told that if an owner feels something is amiss or odd with their dog they want the owner to call, discuss with the vet or a nurse, and bring the dog in--the better safe than sorry approach. 

There is a difference between a loving and caring approach of taking care of a dog's medical needs, and being obsessive about something, and I trust that a dog's veterinarian can discern between the two.

As far as switching veterinarians--I'm extremely fortunate to have fantastic veterinarians for my dogs, but if I felt my dogs' needs were not being met I'd switch until I found that person who could help the dog. That's called responsible ownership.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

2Retrievers222 said:


> Not only do dogs have to watch out for Police, but their own owners. Never thought we have guilty owners on here. lol
> 
> I came across this and thought we should be all aware of it.
> 
> ...


I never posted the content of those PM's just that I have recieved them. 

As for board rules

3. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members shall neither stalk nor harass any other forum / chat-room member. – Anyone found sending unsolicited PMs to another forum member after specifically being notified by the recipient to cease doing so, is guilty of harassment or stalking. What is harder to identify is harassment as it pertains to the open forum. When a trend becomes apparent that one member is constantly posting challenges or annoyances to another member, this pattern of behavior could then possibly be deemed harassment or stalking and therefore must cease. 

You have once before accused me of kicking my dog in the teeth in the open forum. I wont post the other thing you did when I tried to take in a stray that was in heat. 

7. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will refrain from assassinating the character of another. – In heated discussion there is a tendency to malign the character of an opponent. Care must be taken in the wording of all statements of denigration to not single out any individual. An example is instead of saying “You are a liar” (an unacceptable accusation) nearly the same sentiment can be expressed as, “I believe you are mistaken”. Though the foregoing appears to be almost identical in the stated sentiment there is one major difference, the former attacks another’s character of honesty whereas the latter refers to a possible error having been made… this is a BIG distinction in any argument. Also refer to the larger group rather than a single individual when trying to make statements of a derogatory nature. Example: “You are a reckless breeder for not obtaining health certifications before breeding” (this being an example of an unacceptable attack on someone’s character) rather instead use “I feel all breeders who breed their dogs without obtaining health certifications prior is being reckless”. Again, the difference in meaning might seem non-existent but the earlier statement directly attacks a specific individual’s character whereas the latter is an expression of attitude toward a whole class, yet in effect making it understood that “if the shoe fits…” 

I have recieved messages from numerous people telling me they see you tagretting me. Thanks for those who supported me. I wont name names

10. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members are not to have, nor create, multiple user identities unless the Forum Management team is made aware of them. - Again, another measure aimed at self-preservation of this forum. This too can be an immediately bannable offense. If multiple identities are necessary in the same household then please immediately inform the forum management team as to which ones are connected to the same IP, otherwise it must be assumed that the 'secret' identity (ies) is (are) being or intend to be used for malicious mischief. There is no legitimate purpose to have many multiple identities that cannot be shared with the forum management team. So all IDs will be banned at the same time upon discovery.

You have already done this once. Petitpas ring a bell? Yes, I KNOW that was you. How, I will not say. You did this to personally attack me. Claimed I was making my dog run to much on the treadmill causing open sores on his paws then you posted a youtube video of my friends dog who had a hotspot on his thigh telling every one he was a poor dog who needed a better owner

13. *GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will treat other members with respect. *The Golden Retriever Forum relies on its members to self-monitor in terms of rudeness that is just gratuitous. It is one thing to focus passionately on a topic; it is another thing to call someone an offensive name or to be condescending. We hold golden temperaments on high, so let's see our members be friendly to one another as well, even when disagreements occur. You may respectfully attack a member’s point of view but do not attack the member personally, or be excessively rude in your responses. If a thread starts getting heated, take it to a mod, NOT PUBLIC. Those who do not follow this can be warned, suspended or banned.

This ones pretty obvious

So you want to post rules I have partially broken I will do the same for ones you have broken.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Limit the discussion to the topic of the article. Any personal attacks or further insinuation that forum members participate in such acts will result in this thread being closed and potential bans.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

It was a good article


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Limit the discussion to the topic of the article. Any personal attacks or further insinuation that forum members participate in such acts will result in this thread being closed and potential bans.


He knew I would take this personally. So he posted it. This conclusion came from all the messages I have gotton from him (that I still have) and from other members that he has spoken to.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

I see nothing in the OP's post that points to you Lincoln_16, though I do see that you revealed the subject of what was supposed to be a personal PM to the public forum.

I haven't followed the OP's posts at all, but s/he certainly didn't break any with this thread. You reading intent into a thread that did not break the rules, is not rule-breaking.

It's an interesting topic, and many of us have seen people like this with their pets, and I'm sure the professionals have even seen more cases like this.

There may be some variations on this theme too. Numerous forums that folks have been banned from, or similar posts on many different unrelated forums, moving from one to another in a certain way. My favorite is seeing information in one area, only to have it show up in that dog not long after.






Lincoln_16 said:


> I never posted the content of those PM's just that I have recieved them.
> 
> As for board rules
> 
> ...


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I do think the article is interesting. Munchausen is very different than just a concerned owner/parent. These people WANT something to be wrong with their pets/kids/charges mainly because of the attention it brings them. Often to the extent of actually causing problems themselves. I read a book many many years ago called "Cradle to Grave". It is a true story of a women that killed 9 of her children- she made it look like they had SIDS or other illnesses, she was later diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

They have know idea they are doing wrong. In their eyes they are doing everything for them. Read their own families can,t help them.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

w00f said:


> I see nothing in the OP's post that points to you Lincoln_16, though I do see that you revealed the subject of what was supposed to be a personal PM to the public forum.
> 
> I haven't followed the OP's posts at all, but s/he certainly didn't break any with this thread. You reading intent into a thread that did not break the rules, is not rule-breaking.
> 
> ...


Right Lisa, I guess someone treating their dog for tick disease and a million other issues that the tests show negative for must be considered this disease as well. Especially when they order the medication from a pharmacy online like Fish Doxy and treat/dose their dog themselves after a vet says not to....

My dog is taken to the vet and is treated for diseases and or illnesses that show positive on a test especially when harsh medications are involved. If my vet thought I was mistreating my dog surely the spca would of been contacted by now


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

this post certainly proves that this is indeed a witch hunt .




2Retrievers222 said:


> Not only do dogs have to watch out for Police, but their own owners. Never thought we have guilty owners on here. lol
> 
> I came across this and thought we should be all aware of it.
> 
> ...


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Right Lisa, I guess someone treating their dog for tick disease and a million other issues that the tests show negative for must be considered this disease as well. Especially when they order the medication from a pharmacy online like Fish Doxy and treat/dose their dog themselves after a vet says not to....
> 
> My dog is taken to the vet and is treated for diseases and or illnesses that show positive on a test especially when harsh medications are involved. If my vet thought I was mistreating my dog surely the spca would of been contacted by now


Haven't a clue what you are talking about. I am addressing the topic of the OP's thread. Don't know about your imagination, but please refrain from making unfounded accusations towards me on a public forum.

Just looking at the OP's post, there was no mention of you, don't know why you jumped right in. It's a very interesting topic, the people and personalities and issues that are run across on public forums.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> I do think the article is interesting. Munchausen is very different than just a concerned owner/parent. These people WANT something to be wrong with their pets/kids/charges mainly because of the attention it brings them. Often to the extent of actually causing problems themselves. I read a book many many years ago called "Cradle to Grave". It is a true story of a women that killed 9 of her children- she made it look like they had SIDS or other illnesses, she was later diagnosed with Munchausen by proxy.


I remember that book, though never read it, sounded very sad.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

w00f said:


> Haven't a clue what you are talking about. I am addressing the topic of the OP's thread. Don't know about your imagination, but please refrain from making unfounded accusations towards me on a public forum.
> 
> Just looking at the OP's post, there was no mention of you, don't know why you jumped right in. It's a very interesting topic, the people and personalities and issues that are run across on public forums.


There is a history with this user and I. Things were said in PM's that basically proves this was a personal attack on me.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I think Munchausens exists in dogs and owners.. But let's not make it personal.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

Lincoln_16 said:


> There is a history with this user and I. Things were said in PM's that basically proves this was a personal attack on me.


Doesn't matter. Leave the PM issues to the PMs, don't drag them or the info out into the public forum. Don't take a generic post and make it about yourself when there was no mention of you whatsoever.\

This syndrome is an issue....

I imagine sometimes it must be hard for a professional (i.e. vet) to sometimes distinguish, and also figure out whether some owners are more intuitive than others, or if they just aren't right.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> There is a history with this user and I. Things were said in PM's that basically proves this was a personal attack on me.



Which nobody would have known if you hadn't publicly posted that you believed it was about you. I'm pretty sure a mod already asked you to discuss the topic of the thread only, too, so how bout you just leave the thread if it bothers you?


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Personal attacks are not allowed on this forum.


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