# dog whisperer video - really upset me to watch



## Ljilly28

I agree with you. I knew he was going to get bitten. He was misnarrating the dog's body language to himself. She turned her head/ licked her kips, gave distress, stress, and calming signals galore. He rarely makes huge mistakes like that. I did feel it was motivated in part by dog politics to show that "worst" bite being from a yellow lab with Junior pitbull juxtaposed; I do not 100 percent buy that this was his worst bite or maybe even that this dog shocked him. He had a point to make there. I do not think he anticipated the severity of the bite in that case, but he pushed her too far. I admit I am not a CM fan, and don't like his methods in the main for dogs that are not dangerous. He has softened his technique bc of criticism over the years, and behind the scenes he has had some serious boo boos. I do admire his timing, and his work with dogs that no one else dares to touch. I think lots of poor dogs in the public have been downright abused bc they see CM do something on tv, try it themselve, but lack the timing and skills he has.


----------



## Bentleysmom

Oh my gosh!!!!! Ky was food aggressive when I got her because she never knew when or if she'd get a meal when tied to the tree for a year. The way I fixed it (since NOBODY allowed her in class), while she was eating I would reach down and put something GREAT in her bowl, this went on along time until it finally clicked with her that I wasn't stealing her food I was adding even better stuff. Now after 4 years I'm able to put my hand in her bowl, take food out of her mouth, no problem. I have never nor will I ever kick a dog! I'm not commenting one way or the other about CM but I feel horrible for that dog!
My dogs are all taught with love, if one thing doesn't work I try something else but always with love ♥


----------



## tippykayak

It was careless and arrogant. He had just popped her in the neck and had an unnecessarily confrontational showdown with her, and then he reached out above her head with his hand. What on earth did he expect? I don't agree with the guy's methods, but he generally reads dogs better than that. 

I do not understand why he thinks popping her in the neck for reactive resource guarding will teach her not to guard in the first place. This isn't a dog who thinks she's boss. This is a nervous, insecure dog who's learned that snapping works. He scared the bejeezus out of her when he went in to pet her with a high hand and she went for it. How did she know it wasn't going to be another hard pop to the neck?

This is how untrained owners get nasty bites from their dogs. They imitate this nonsense. It would be hard to imagine somebody with better timing for this kind of method than CM and here he is setting off a panic reaction and getting a nasty bite. If you imitated this method with a puppy showing the first signs of resource guarding, you'd create a problem biter a huge percentage of the time.

This is not how you train dogs.


----------



## Phoebe's mom

I understand it's his job to do this and yes he misread the signs but if I got bit by a dog and it wouldn't let go I would kick it too. He didn't kick it hard, just enough to make it distracted so he could let go. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## Tennyson

You know how all those hedge fund managers ripped off Wall St while making billions?
This punk did the same thing to the dog training industry while making millions. That's the only thing he's good at.
Have to hand it to him how he marketed himself and diving right in on an up and coming industry.


----------



## goldhaven

Bentleysmom said:


> Oh my gosh!!!!! Ky was food aggressive when I got her because she never knew when or if she'd get a meal when tied to the tree for a year. The way I fixed it (since NOBODY allowed her in class), while she was eating I would reach down and put something GREAT in her bowl, this went on along time until it finally clicked with her that I wasn't stealing her food I was adding even better stuff. Now after 4 years I'm able to put my hand in her bowl, take food out of her mouth, no problem*. I have never nor will I ever kick a dog! *I'm not commenting one way or the other about CM but I feel horrible for that dog!
> My dogs are all taught with love, if one thing doesn't work I try something else but always with love ♥


I can't make that same statement. I have kicked a dog before. As hard and as many times as I could. I have never kicked my own dog before but that may be because my dogs are pretty well behaved and trained. My neighbors chow came into my yard while I was training my dogs. I had one on leash and my older trained dog was off leash but still in my yard. The chow attacked my off leash girl. I allowed my leashed girl to bite the chow in the rear and as soon as the chow would turn around I pulled my dog back and kicked the chow in the face. I don't know how many times that happened before my husband heard the commotion and came out to help chase the chow off. 
I totally believe in the kinder gentler method of training but I can think of a couple of instances where, right or wrong, I would kick a dog. If it were attacking my dogs, is definitely one of those times. If it were attacking a child, I know I would kick it, and if it had my hand in it's mouth, well I think I would kick it then also. So much of this is reactive. I never even thought about it, I just reacted. 
My only comment about CM is that I admire his dedication to the dogs. He always believes that they can be fixed and never advocates putting them down. He works with the most difficult cases where sometimes the only alternative is euthanasia and most of the time his timing is right on. He sure missed the mark on this one and admitted it on camera. I am glad that they put that out there. It just goes to show what can happen. 

Has anyone actually seen this episode? I would really like to know how this turned out. I heard mention of a child in the house.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

I'd kick a dog if it was biting me. I don't watch the show. I don't agree or disagree with him.


----------



## OutWest

Good old CM...he causes so much dissension...I have to say, I'm not sure I would have kicked the dog. I think if I were defending myself or someone else, I would kick a dog, but I'm not sure it was warranted in this case. I would like to see the whole piece too and know how it came out. 

Re: the kicking, I think his purpose (to get the dog to submit) was undermined when he did that. He should have just stood up over the dog and repeated what he had just done to get it to back down. He usually reads dogs pretty well ... I think he dropped his guard on this one. 

I have to say, so much of his work is for theater...complete with soundtrack, etc., to build tension.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

goldhaven said:


> I can't make that same statement. I have kicked a dog before. As hard and as many times as I could. I have never kicked my own dog before but that may be because my dogs are pretty well behaved and trained. My neighbors chow came into my yard while I was training my dogs. I had one on leash and my older trained dog was off leash but still in my yard. The chow attacked my off leash girl. I allowed my leashed girl to bite the chow in the rear and as soon as the chow would turn around I pulled my dog back and kicked the chow in the face. I don't know how many times that happened before my husband heard the commotion and came out to help chase the chow off.
> I totally believe in the kinder gentler method of training but I can think of a couple of instances where, right or wrong, I would kick a dog. If it were attacking my dogs, is definitely one of those times. If it were attacking a child, I know I would kick it, and if it had my hand in it's mouth, well I think I would kick it then also. So much of this is reactive. I never even thought about it, I just reacted.
> My only comment about CM is that I admire his dedication to the dogs. He always believes that they can be fixed and never advocates putting them down. He works with the most difficult cases where sometimes the only alternative is euthanasia and most of the time his timing is right on. He sure missed the mark on this one and admitted it on camera. I am glad that they put that out there. It just goes to show what can happen.
> 
> Has anyone actually seen this episode? I would really like to know how this turned out. I heard mention of a child in the house.


I 100% agree with everything you said. And I too would like to know the story behind this dog and family.


----------



## Bentleysmom

I stand corrected  I would never kick MY dog. I would however do whatever it took to protect myself and my dogs from an attacking dog.



goldhaven said:


> I can't make that same statement. I have kicked a dog before. As hard and as many times as I could. I have never kicked my own dog before but that may be because my dogs are pretty well behaved and trained. My neighbors chow came into my yard while I was training my dogs. I had one on leash and my older trained dog was off leash but still in my yard. The chow attacked my off leash girl. I allowed my leashed girl to bite the chow in the rear and as soon as the chow would turn around I pulled my dog back and kicked the chow in the face. I don't know how many times that happened before my husband heard the commotion and came out to help chase the chow off.
> I totally believe in the kinder gentler method of training but I can think of a couple of instances where, right or wrong, I would kick a dog. If it were attacking my dogs, is definitely one of those times. If it were attacking a child, I know I would kick it, and if it had my hand in it's mouth, well I think I would kick it then also. So much of this is reactive. I never even thought about it, I just reacted.
> My only comment about CM is that I admire his dedication to the dogs. He always believes that they can be fixed and never advocates putting them down. He works with the most difficult cases where sometimes the only alternative is euthanasia and most of the time his timing is right on. He sure missed the mark on this one and admitted it on camera. I am glad that they put that out there. It just goes to show what can happen.
> 
> Has anyone actually seen this episode? I would really like to know how this turned out. I heard mention of a child in the house.


----------



## tippykayak

The kick isn't even my radar for what bothers me here. He may have thought the dog was mangling his hand (she was ripping back and forth pretty hard for a second), and who can say what I'd do in reaction like that? Probably something similar. What bothers me is that he forced the dog to bite him in the first place. She gave him SO MANY SIGNS, and all she got for her trouble was a pop to the neck and a lot of intimidating body language.

I don't know the rest of the context, but that dog signaled that bite over and over and over before she did it, and there's no excuse for provoking aggression like that. It just makes her more likely to distrust people and aggress in the future.


----------



## vcm5

I didn't mean to imply that I don't think kicking a dog is never justified, it is just really hard to watch. The whole thing is hard to watch. I have never kicked a dog, but I couldn't honestly say that I wouldn't if a dog was going after my dog or a person or me.

I will be the first to admit that I don't watch his show, that watching this clip was completely isolated for me, so maybe I caught him at his absolute worst and in a mistake. But gosh did that video seem absolutely crazy to me. I am not a dog training expert, but even I could have predicted that dog would have lashed out at him if he tried to pet her at that point. I wasn't so much shocked at the kicking (he was being bitten at the time) as I was shocked at his overall method of dealing with this dog - she was so clearly stressed and afraid, it just seemed so unwise.


----------



## vcm5

tippykayak said:


> The kick isn't even my radar for what bothers me here. He may have thought the dog was mangling his hand (she was ripping back and forth pretty hard for a second), and who can say what I'd do in reaction like that? Probably something similar. What bothers me is that he forced the dog to bite him in the first place. She gave him SO MANY SIGNS, and all she got for her trouble was a pop to the neck and a lot of intimidating body language.
> 
> I don't know the rest of the context, but that dog signaled that bite over and over and over before she did it, and there's no excuse for provoking aggression like that. It just makes her more likely to distrust people and aggress in the future.


Yes, this is exactly how I feel. The kicking me doesn't bother me so much as his letting it escalate to that point. I think his intimidation and pressing of the situation is going to cause far more long run damage than the kick.


----------



## Phoebe's mom

I think he misread the signs and thought it was calm because he was a lab. For the TV show he had to get the dog to be aggressive or else it wouldn't be a TV show, which is sad. But he needed to see the behaviour to fix it.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Phoebe's mom said:


> I think he misread the signs and thought it was calm because he was a lab. For the TV show he had to get the dog to be aggressive or else it wouldn't be a TV show, which is sad. But he needed to see the behaviour to fix it.


He didn't have to do anything to make that dog aggresive. It was clear from the beginning he was food aggresive.


----------



## vcm5

Wyatt's mommy said:


> He didn't have to do anything for that dog to be aggresive. It was clear from the beginning he was food aggresive.


I agree that I don't think he caused the dog to be food aggressive, but I also thought he kept pushing this dog and dealing with it in the wrong way - he didn't need to push this situation to the point of the bite.


----------



## Phoebe's mom

I don't think he meant for the second bite to happen, that's when he read the signs wrong.. went over the head, which is intimidating and then the dog bit, it wasn't a warning bite, that dog meant to hurt.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

vcm5 said:


> I agree that I don't think he caused the dog to be food aggressive, but I also thought he kept pushing this dog and dealing with it in the wrong way - he didn't need to push this situation to the point of the bite.


He is highly experienced in training aggresive dogs. Like others have said it seems his timing was off. People make mistakes. I'm sure he has plenty of scars to show for it. I wish we knew the whole story. I won't judge this one small clip.


----------



## vcm5

Wyatt's mommy said:


> He is highly experienced in training aggresive dogs. Like others have said it seems his timing was off. People make mistakes. I'm sure he has plenty of scars to show for it. I wish we knew the whole story. I won't judge this one small clip.


Fair enough! Like I said, this is really all I've ever seen of him.


----------



## MikaTallulah

No matter how you slice it this lab would not be safe around kids/ baby and food which I guess is the reason he is their. He says the dog should not be around baby. No matter how many signs this dog gave I would not trust her around a kid if food existed.


----------



## MikaTallulah

Ceasar has been bitten many times over the years. No 2 dogs are the same. Don't know a single dog trainer, vet, tech, etc. who has never been bitten. I was not expecting the serious bite the dog gave so I would have been bit by that dog too.


----------



## vcm5

MikaTallulah said:


> No matter how you slice it this lab would not be safe around kids/ baby and food which I guess is the reason he is their. He says the dog should not be around baby. No matter how many signs this dog gave I would not trust her around a kid if food existed.


Good point. I feel for this poor family, they are in such a hard position.


----------



## Charliethree

The man is an absolute moron, he got what he deserved. He did not misread anything - he paid absolutely no attention at all to the calming signals and avoidance behaviors the dog was offering him. He just kept pushing the dog and FORCED it to bite, it felt threatened, intimidated and pressured for a long period of time, he stood and stared at it for 5 minutes or more trying to get it to 'submit', of course the dog is going to defend itself -it had no other choice.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

He has saved a a lot of dogs that would have been put to sleep. I hardly call that a moron.


----------



## MercyMom

Very Sad! I have watched some of his shows. He is so so. This is the first time, I have seen one of his tactics fail. I do not agree with a lot of his approach, although it gets interesting to watch. The whole episode will air Saturday at 8M. I will be able to comment a lot more after seeing the whole thing. I have learned through my own dog's resource guarding issues that building confidence is the key. Helping the dog feel secure that you will not take away those things that matter most to her. One of my dog trainers Mary Ann Robertson taught me to gently encourage the dog to give up her bone then give it back to show you are not out to take what matters most to her. The key is teaching the dog to willingly give it up instead of forcing it from her. The dog needs to see you as a positive source of food and treats. If Mercy attacked my personal trainer whether or not she was wrongly provoked, I too would be devastated like Holly's owners were! :bawling:I do think Ceasar could have done differently. He did cross the line some. Dogs with lack of confidence and security, the cause behind resource guarding, need positive reenforcement and gentle encouragement. It appears to me that this dog would have attacked most people trying to coax her away from her food. It looked like it worked to Caesar, only to find out it didn't. I will have to watch the whole thing this Saturday.


----------



## MercyMom

Charliethree said:


> The man is an absolute moron, he got what he deserved. He did not misread anything - he paid absolutely no attention at all to the calming signals and avoidance behaviors the dog was offering him. He just kept pushing the dog and FORCED it to bite, it felt threatened, intimidated and pressured for a long period of time, he stood and stared at it for 5 minutes or more trying to get it to 'submit', of course the dog is going to defend itself -it had no other choice.


 Staring a dog down in dog language is a threat to a dog.


----------



## tomw

I do not like CM's methodology at all. It flies in the face of contemporary dog behavior training as researched, understood, and practiced by truly positive dog trainers. Watch the video closely. CM is playing for the camera. He provokes the dog by staring at her in the eye and by then hovering over her (from the front of her head no less.) He then attempts to remove her food dish while she is eating. He provoked her. I have watched so many of his videos and always feel the same disgust at the end of them. I just wonder how many dogs' lives he has ruined by his methods that include hitting,kicking and direct confrontation.


----------



## toliva

I won't judge Cesar here; mistakes are human and no one can say they have never been distracted and made a mistake, but I will say that I feel so bad for the owners. The woman was in tears it seemed. The man felt terrible. And if they do have a child in the house, then this is their last ditch effort to resolve a dangerous problem. That poor pup. It's sad all around. I have never watched the show but now I am curious to see the full story.


----------



## My Big Kahuna

Well it seems to me nobody has seen the episode... I won't chime in on opinions etc because I am about to go to bed but somebody asked what happened with the dog... Cesar kept him with his pack... Even after taking him to his Dog Psychology Center for weeks he was not comfortable at all sending the dog back to a home with a child... The couple came back later to say their good byes...


----------



## Pointgold

Phoebe's mom said:


> I understand it's his job to do this and yes he misread the signs but if I got bit by a dog and it wouldn't let go I would kick it too. He didn't kick it hard, just enough to make it distracted so he could let go.
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


 
There is no excuse for what happened here. He deserved to be bitten - he provoked that dog. He should not have HAD to kick her. Had he not pestered her by intimidating her while she ate, with clearly challenging and aggressive body language on his part, she would not have gone for him in the first place. I did not see an "aggressive" dog so much as one who was provoked and fearful of the posturing that CM was exhibiting.
What an arrogant, macho bully.
He's dangerous, and I think it is shameful that this would be aired.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

My Big Kahuna said:


> Well it seems to me nobody has seen the episode... I won't chime in on opinions etc because I am about to go to bed but somebody asked what happened with the dog... Cesar kept him with his pack... Even after taking him to his Dog Psychology Center for weeks he was not comfortable at all sending the dog back to a home with a child... The couple came back later to say their good byes...


Thanks! I did read a little about it. They adopted the dog and he has bitten the owner a few times also. It's the best for all involved. That dog does not belong around any children.


----------



## Charmie

I don't know. On one hand, I don't always agree with his tactics, and I believe that his show does mislead many people to think that they can force dogs to do their will when they don't have a fraction of the experience he has. On the other hand, the guy is pretty amazing, and has saved TONS of dogs from being put down. I don't even have a doubt that there are people who have watched his show and then gotten professional help for their dogs because it gave them hope to train their own babies with help.


----------



## MercyMom

My Big Kahuna said:


> Well it seems to me nobody has seen the episode... I won't chime in on opinions etc because I am about to go to bed but somebody asked what happened with the dog... Cesar kept him with his pack... Even after taking him to his Dog Psychology Center for weeks he was not comfortable at all sending the dog back to a home with a child... The couple came back later to say their good byes...


 Aw man!  I will still watch it though to see for myself.


----------



## goldhaven

My Big Kahuna said:


> Well it seems to me nobody has seen the episode... I won't chime in on opinions etc because I am about to go to bed but somebody asked what happened with the dog... Cesar kept him with his pack... Even after taking him to his Dog Psychology Center for weeks he was not comfortable at all sending the dog back to a home with a child... The couple came back later to say their good byes...


Happy to know that the dog isn't put down.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

I think Cesar does help a lot of dogs. He stands up for the Pit Bull breed, which I like.

I'd rather Cesar be around my dogs than Brad Pattison.


----------



## BriGuy

My Big Kahuna said:


> Well it seems to me nobody has seen the episode... I won't chime in on opinions etc because I am about to go to bed but somebody asked what happened with the dog... Cesar kept him with his pack... Even after taking him to his Dog Psychology Center for weeks he was not comfortable at all sending the dog back to a home with a child... The couple came back later to say their good byes...


I saw the whole episode too, and I really felt bad for this dog. I don't know if the owners were just demonstrating for the camera, but even before Cesar came by, the owner was poking at the dog with a rake to show how she would react while eating. I saw a dog that was extremely scared - she would eat very quickly with her tail held straight in the air with all her hair erect on her back. The owner mentioned that he used a couple of trainers that hadn't helped, and I wonder if they in fact made things worse. They showed her completely melting down in her crate, and I started to wonder if the dog was not wired right to begin with.

Once in a while I watch dog whisperer and just think to myself that he's kind of a knucklehead with the sounds he makes, etc. , but this episode was the most awful train wreck that I could not get out of my head for the rest of the night.


----------



## mylissyk

Ninde'Gold said:


> I think Cesar does help a lot of dogs. He stands up for the Pit Bull breed, which I like.
> 
> I'd rather Cesar be around my dogs than Brad Pattison.


In general I don't agree with Cesar's methods, and he did completely misread this dog, but I totally agree with that last statement. At least Cesar LIKES dogs and enjoys being around them. Pattison just wants to hurt them.


----------



## MercyMom

mylissyk said:


> In general I don't agree with Cesar's methods, and he did completely misread this dog, but I totally agree with that last statement. At least Cesar LIKES dogs and enjoys being around them. Pattison just wants to hurt them.


 Who is Pattison?


----------



## MercyMom

MercyMom said:


> Who is Pattison?


 Never Mind. I found him. Don't coax a puppy, just move? No treats? That is too harsh.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

Just one of the many videos of him slapping a dog in the face.


----------



## MercyMom

Ninde'Gold said:


> Just one of the many videos of him slapping a dog in the face.


That's horrible! If somebody did that to my beloved Mercy and me, I would just fall apart!:bawling:

He kind of reminds me of an emergency vet I had to take Coal to once because he was vomiting. He was questioning me snootily and when Coal went for the trash can, he smacked him and said, "No wonder you get sick!"


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

BriGuy said:


> I saw the whole episode too, and I really felt bad for this dog.* I don't know if the owners were just demonstrating for the camera, but even before Cesar came by, the owner was poking at the dog with a rake to show how she would react while eating.* I saw a dog that was extremely scared - she would eat very quickly with her tail held straight in the air with all her hair erect on her back. The owner mentioned that he used a couple of trainers that hadn't helped, and I wonder if they in fact made things worse. They showed her completely melting down in her crate, and I started to wonder if the dog was not wired right to begin with.
> 
> Once in a while I watch dog whisperer and just think to myself that he's kind of a knucklehead with the sounds he makes, etc. , but this episode was the most awful train wreck that I could not get out of my head for the rest of the night.


I saw that too and the owner was showing how the dog reacts if you get near his food bowl. Which was the reason for calling Cesar. He put it near his food, not poking him with it. Obviously he was smart enough not to use his hand. The owners were afraid of their 18 month old getting bit if she had food in her hand. They obviously made the smart choice.


----------



## OutWest

Ninde'Gold said:


> Just one of the many videos of him slapping a dog in the face.


Oh my. That's really very disturbing. I would have been outta there really fast..


----------



## Ninde'Gold

OutWest said:


> Oh my. That's really very disturbing. I would have been outta there really fast..


If I was there and he slapped MY dog, he'd be in a world of trouble.


----------



## goldhaven

I will have to admit that since I started watching CM, I will never look at a dog the same again. I don't agree with all of his methods but I have still learned so much from watching him. 
I have been training dogs for years and my training methods are not any one method. I have taken something that I like from every trainer I have ever met, every book that I have ever read, and every class that I have ever taken. I don't think I have ever agreed completely with any trainer. I just take what I can use and leave the rest. To each, his own. I have also never trained 2 dogs the same. I use different methods for different dogs. One thing that I have learned is that there is no "one size fits all" for training. 
That being said, CM is not, has never been, will never be, nor does he claim to be, a trainer. CM's claim is that he is a dog "behaviorist." At the time that he first aired, I had never heard of a dog behaviorist and I was skeptical at best. I watched some of his shows and I was hooked. I totally agree with some of his claims and not so much with others. I had a couple of real eye opening moments while watching his shows. What impressed me the most, was his love of animals and his "never give up" attitude. He takes on dogs that would normally be put down. Dogs that everyone else has given up on and if he can't get them well enough to be placed back with their families, he takes them into his own pack, they don't get put to sleep. As an animal lover, if I couldn't handle one of my own pets, I would rather see it go to him than to die. 
One really big ah ha moment while watching the show was how NOT to cuddle a fearful or aggressive dog. I can't tell you how many times, at the vets office, or dog park, I have seen a dog growling and the owner is petting and saying, "it's alright". The same thing happens when a pup is showing a fear of thunderstorms. My first instinct was always to "comfort the pup". When I first saw the show that introduced this concept, I didn't agree with it. As a mother, I couldn't grasp the concept of not comforting something in pain. I did however, test this with a rescue that I had at the time with a fear of thunderstorms and to my complete surprise, it worked. I am now a big proponent of not "rewarding" unwanted behavior, whether it be fear, anxiety or aggression. After this realization, I started watching and testing some of his other methods. I absolutely love and agree with the exercise, discipline, affection routine that he advocates and on the other hand the alpha roll is not for me. I am not saying that it is wrong. Again, to each, his own. I also understand that he is, most times a last resort for many people and if this method works for dogs that would otherwise be put down, then I would have to agree with his use of it. 
I love that he teaches to be calm and assertive. I don't think that was something that I thought too much about before watching him. I never realized that my frustration or anger was defeating my lessons. 
He has helped me to see my dogs as animals and not babies. His show has made me look at my dogs as dogs and their behavior as so very different from humans. In my opinion, taking dog behavior into consideration can only make someone a better trainer. 
Another thing that I got from watching him, was not to beat a dead horse. If something doesn't work the first couple or time you try it, try something else. This is one of the biggest reasons that I will read, watch, or talk to any trainers, so that I can expand my knowledge of training techniques. 
I do believe that there has been a big problem with his show, in that too many people think that they can do what he does with aggressive dogs, and they end up screwing it up and making things worse. 

I have been watching his show since it began and never missed an episode until he moved to nat geo wild. Quite honestly, I am neither for or against him or his show. I just take what I think I can use from it, and leave the rest.


----------



## Wendy427

@goldhaven: thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about CM! Much of what you posted is exactly how I feel. I've been watching CM ever since his show first aired, and have learned much from him. Like you, I totally understand and agree with the "calm and assertive" idea, and to NOT cuddle a fearful or aggressive dog. It worked wonders with Lacey since, when I first adopted her, she was somewhat fearful (of sudden movements and some people), and could sometimes be too submissive around other dogs and be "clingy" with me in those situations. Lacey actually taught ME to be more calm and _confident_ (my word rather than "assertive"), so that I, in turn, could help her.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Having just attended a dog aggression behavior lecture, I have to say that dog gave many signals before she bit him. Why was he poking at the dog and challenging it? I went to a Nick Dodman lecture years ago where he asked why do people insist on bugging dogs when they eat. I understand there is a baby involved, so they need to be safe. My job when my children were young was to keep them safe when the dogs were eating. Mine were never food aggressive, but I never put it to the test with my kids. CM has done a lot to bring training into the limelight. I personally do not believe in all that dominance crap.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Sally's Mom said:


> Having just attended a dog aggression behavior lecture, I have to say that dog gave many signals before she bit him. *Why was he poking at the dog and challenging it?* I went to a Nick Dodman lecture years ago where he asked why do people insist on bugging dogs when they eat. I understand there is a baby involved, so they need to be safe. My job when my children were young was to keep them safe when the dogs were eating. Mine were never food aggressive, but I never put it to the test with my kids. CM has done a lot to bring training into the limelight. I personally do not believe in all that dominance crap.


Isn't that how behaviorists test food agreesive dogs? Touching their food and such while they eat?


----------



## solinvictus

"CM's claim is that he is a dog "behaviorist." "

Dogs In Danger - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN 

What are Cesar’s credentials for this line of work? Well, according to Cesar’s website, his “blessed gift - a primal communion with nature - always came naturally to him.” “For me,” Millan says, “it's just instinctual -- I understand how they think and behave, so I can relate to them and communicate with them.”

Cesar has no formal training or education in animal behavior. He draws on his observations of his grandfather in Mexico and his own life experience. 

_________________________

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Many of those things that people say they learned from CM's show about exercise, being calm etc basically are taught by any trainer. Unfortunately, not only are people taking away those good things they are actually trying to do things like he did to Holly which caused her to feel she had no alternative and went after him. How many pet dogs have been harmed because people try what he does on his shows? When the families/owners of the dogs that are not on the show act out because of the bad advice given what happens to them?


----------



## Tennyson

That lab should have bit him in the nuts.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

solinvictus said:


> "CM's claim is that he is a dog "behaviorist." "
> 
> Dogs In Danger - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN
> 
> What are Cesar’s credentials for this line of work? Well, according to Cesar’s website, his “blessed gift - a primal communion with nature - always came naturally to him.” “For me,” Millan says, “it's just instinctual -- I understand how they think and behave, so I can relate to them and communicate with them.”
> 
> Cesar has no formal training or education in animal behavior. He draws on his observations of his grandfather in Mexico and his own life experience.
> 
> _________________________
> 
> Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Many of those things that people say they learned from CM's show about exercise, being calm etc basically are taught by any trainer. *Unfortunately, not only are people taking away those good things they are actually trying to do things like he did to Holly which caused her to feel she had no alternative and went after him. How many pet dogs have been harmed because people try what he does on his shows? When the families/owners of the dogs that are not on the show act out because of the bad advice given what happens to them?*


What exactly was his advice about Holly to families not on the show? You know what it was? He said "This dog should not be around children" He never approaches an aggresive dog in his shows and tells people they should do what he is doing. Never.


----------



## Bentleysmom

Just WOW!!! I've never heard of this Pattison guy but I can tell you that if he did that to any of my dogs the headline in the morning paper would read: "Old woman goes berserk, man in critical condition. News at 11"



Ninde'Gold said:


> Just one of the many videos of him slapping a dog in the face.


----------



## Sally's Mom

By turning her head, Holly was showing appeasement behavior, yet CM persisted on antagonizing her. She was clearly giving signals that she was trying not to engage...


----------



## Ninde'Gold

He has a TV show called "At The End Of My Leash" or something like that...

He yells at owners, dogs... makes Cesar look like a saint haha


----------



## BriGuy

Wyatt's mommy said:


> What exactly was his advice about Holly to families not on the show? You know what it was? He said "This dog should not be around children" He never approaches an aggresive dog in his shows and tells people they should do what he is doing. Never.


He seems to be really hung up on challenging dogs around the food bowl until they "submit" to their human. I saw him get bit on at least 2 shows by doing this. Sure, they say not to try this at home, but I'm sure people do.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

BriGuy said:


> He seems to be really hung up on challenging dogs around the food bowl until they "submit" to their human. I saw him get bit on at least 2 shows by doing this. Sure, they say not to try this at home, but I'm sure people do.


I can guarantee he has been bit many times lol! If someone tries something like that at home it isn't Cesars fault LOL!


----------



## vcm5

Bentleysmom said:


> Just WOW!!! I've never heard of this Pattison guy but I can tell you that if he did that to any of my dogs the headline in the morning paper would read: "Old woman goes berserk, man in critical condition. News at 11"


You never fail to crack me up! 

But I agree, I can't imagine what I would do if someone slapped my dog, I'd freak.


----------



## OutWest

The idea that CM considers himself a behaviorist is new info to me. In that case he ought to be clear that he is testing dogs to identify their pressure points, and then show people some ways to to help the dog and to help understand the dog.

I don't think he really understood Holly--if he did, he didn't use the info to help her or educate the viewer.

I truly believe people watch him thinking they are going to learn how to train their dog. My sister keeps trying to do CM stuff with Tucker. She thinks that's the way to go and Tucker just looks at her with confusion.

If Victoria had had that dog, she would have talked about its fear and insecurity and explained that to the owners and the audience. Then she would have talked about and demonstrated what she could do to help the dog. 

The bit where CM dominated the dog so it submitted (in the beginning) made good theater and was impressive, but what did anyone get out of it? I've seen CM enter a room filled with aroused, angry looking dogs and very quietly get them calm by dominating them with the force of his personality. Yes he can do that, but again, what good is that other than as a parlor trick? 

It's funny because I've enjoyed many of his shows and I respect that he's saved some dogs that were in trouble, I just think his methods should be explained better so that people don't do that with all dogs. If you can gain cooperation and trust without dominating, I believe that's the better way to go (with dogs and humans). I've known many leaders I respected from both styles of leadership.


----------



## Pointgold

Sally's Mom said:


> By turning her head, Holly was showing appeasement behavior, yet CM persisted on antagonizing her. She was clearly giving signals that she was trying not to engage...


 
BINGO!
He bullied and provoked her. Period.
Makes "great" tv. Not.


----------



## Pointgold

solinvictus said:


> "CM's claim is that he is a dog "behaviorist." "
> 
> Dogs In Danger - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN
> 
> What are Cesar’s credentials for this line of work? Well, according to Cesar’s website, his “blessed gift - a primal communion with nature - always came naturally to him.” “For me,” Millan says, “it's just instinctual -- I understand how they think and behave, so I can relate to them and communicate with them.”
> 
> Cesar has no formal training or education in animal behavior. He draws on his observations of his grandfather in Mexico and his own life experience.
> 
> _________________________
> 
> Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Many of those things that people say they learned from CM's show about exercise, being calm etc basically are taught by any trainer. Unfortunately, not only are people taking away those good things they are actually trying to do things like he did to Holly which caused her to feel she had no alternative and went after him. How many pet dogs have been harmed because people try what he does on his shows? When the families/owners of the dogs that are not on the show act out because of the bad advice given what happens to them?


 
He's good looking, and charming, and his accent is lovely. It makes for great theatre. The stuff that he does that _is_ reasonable has been done for decades by thousands of trainers before him. The rest is, IMO, dangerous and unreasonble and macho bullying, with no sound foundation in animal behavior.


----------



## Pointgold

Charmie said:


> I don't know. On one hand, I don't always agree with his tactics, and I believe that his show does mislead many people to think that they can force dogs to do their will when they don't have a fraction of the experience he has. On the other hand, the guy is pretty amazing, and has saved TONS of dogs from being put down. I don't even have a doubt that there are people who have watched his show and then gotten professional help for their dogs because it gave them hope to train their own babies with help.


 
I don't find him to be "amazing" at all. He simply was in the right place at the right time, and marketable. He's cashed in on the work of others (with decades of experience and sound foundations in animal behavior) while being theatrical and entertaining with the macho "dominance" stuff. He's exploited his good looks and charm, and thankfully some dogs have been saved. Period. I personally think he's done more harm than good, although we'll likely never hear about the ones he hasn't "saved", or the pet owners at home who've failed miserably trying to impersonate him...


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

OutWest said:


> The idea that CM considers himself a behaviorist is new info to me. In that case he ought to be clear that he is testing dogs to identify their pressure points, and then show people some ways to to help the dog and to help understand the dog.
> 
> I don't think he really understood Holly--if he did, he didn't use the info to help her or educate the viewer.
> 
> I truly believe people watch him thinking they are going to learn how to train their dog. My sister keeps trying to do CM stuff with Tucker. She thinks that's the way to go and Tucker just looks at her with confusion.
> 
> If Victoria had had that dog, she would have talked about its fear and insecurity and explained that to the owners and the audience. Then she would have talked about and demonstrated what she could do to help the dog.
> 
> The bit where CM dominated the dog so it submitted (in the beginning) made good theater and was impressive, but what did anyone get out of it? I've seen CM enter a room filled with aroused, angry looking dogs and very quietly get them calm by dominating them with the force of his personality. Yes he can do that, but again, what good is that other than as a parlor trick?
> 
> It's funny because I've enjoyed many of his shows and I respect that he's saved some dogs that were in trouble, I just think his methods should be explained better so that people don't do that with all dogs. If you can gain cooperation and trust without dominating, I believe that's the better way to go (with dogs and humans). I've known many leaders I respected from both styles of leadership.


I believe in the total episode he does explain the problem and takes the dog to work with him and his owners and in the end they decided he was not safe to bring home to a home with a child. You never see everything in one episode. Same with Victorias show. Sometimes I shake my head at her show too because it does not show everything involved to get the dog to where it is. You have to remember his show deals with totally out of control and sometimes aggressive dogs (and sometimes owners) Not basic training. I am also one that knows all dogs are not created equal and all need different techniques. I take a little from all types of training. I don't believe in one size fits all. It has worked for me.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Wyatt's Mommy, I am talking about when he was poking her neck and face and challenging her.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Sally's Mom said:


> Wyatt's Mommy, I am talking about when he was poking her neck and face and challenging her.


I guess we watched different videos. I saw him put his hand near the food and she snapped at him and that is when he popped her in the neck. Then he stood his ground until she backed down. Which she did and he went to pet her and she attacked him.


----------



## Sally's Mom

What I see is a dog eating her dinner. Then some random stranger puts his hand in her dish and she becomes defensive. She is uncomfortable, exhibiting appeasement behavior, squinting her eyes and turning her head... CM proceeds to poke her, point his finger, and challenge her. If it were me with small kids, the crate would be her dining area. No challenge, no stress... Then no one makes a mistake. If this were my dog, I would never let it have high value treats to protect... I have "free range" Goldens...they live in our house alongside us. No kennels, etc. My guys never have high value treats...they could fight among themselves... My kids are older, but they were never near my dogs when they were eating... I grew up,with a beagle who when she had stolen a chicken from the dining room table and then went under said table, you did not mess with her. She probably would've bitten, but we knew to leave her alone. Why do people feel they have to prove they are more aggressive than their dogs? I can do anything with my current Goldens, not thru dominance, but thru constant handling...


----------



## Pointgold

Why shouldn't a dog be allowed to eat without being pressured? Just like us. You can MAKE a dog have food problems simply by pestering. I saw this dog really TRYING not to engage with that macho bully. 
There is simply no excusing this. That poor dog...


*And I am often accused of being TOO hard on dogs and TOO quick to label them "hopeless"...​


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Sally's Mom said:


> What I see is a dog eating her dinner. Then some random stranger puts his hand in her dish and she becomes defensive. She is uncomfortable, exhibiting appeasement behavior, squinting her eyes and turning her head... CM proceeds to poke her, point his finger, and challenge her. If it were me with small kids, the crate would be her dining area. No challenge, no stress... Then no one makes a mistake. If this were my dog, I would never let it have high value treats to protect... I have "free range" Goldens...they live in our house alongside us. No kennels, etc. My guys never have high value treats...they could fight among themselves... My kids are older, but they were never near my dogs when they were eating... I grew up,with a beagle who when she had stolen a chicken from the dining room table and then went under said table, you did not mess with her. She probably would've bitten, but we knew to leave her alone. Why do people feel they have to prove they are more aggressive than their dogs? I can do anything with my current Goldens, not thru dominance, but thru constant handling...


Well there ya go. Not what I saw at all. Uncomfortable? She snapped at him. How does a dog behaviorist test food aggressive dogs? A dog like this that has bitten the owner a few times . And we don't know at what length they went to in order to fix the problem. Nor do we know how many trainers they have been thru. Was this their last resort? The parents were afraid that their toddler would walk by her with food in her hand and get torn to pieces. I think the parents know the dog .

If it were me with small kids that dog would not be in my house. He did them a favor. Better his hand got bit and not the toddlers face. This dog has issues and I would never compare it to my golden who is not dominated by any means. That would be silly.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Wyatt's Mommy, read the dog's face, she was uncomfortable...look closely at the subtle movements she makes. You are missing my point. I have owned Goldens for 22 years. My kids are twenty and 18. I never ever exposed my kids to eating dogs when they were young . Why bother the eating dog or challenge it? I am not saying that the dog should be in a house with children, but in this instance, I think the dog was set up,to fail. Why not do a video where the dog is eating in a crate and harms no one?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Sally's Mom said:


> Wyatt's Mommy, read the dog's face, she was uncomfortable...look closely at the subtle movements she makes. You are missing my point. I have owned Goldens for 22 years. My kids are twenty and 18. I never ever exposed my kids to eating dogs when they were young . Why bother the eating dog or challenge it? I am not saying that the dog should be in a house with children, but in this instance, I think the dog was set up,to fail. Why not do a video where the dog is eating in a crate and harms no one?


Well obviously this is his technique on how he works with these types of dogs. And he has had great results. I don't really believe he wanted to get bit or have the dog fail. And since we don't know the history, we also don't know how the owner was bit either. Did he just walk by and get too close? A lot of unanswered questions. Too many for me to honestly give my opinion except that I would not tolerate that behavior period.


----------



## Sally's Mom

We must agree to disagree. After training dogs in obedience for twenty two years and being a veterinarian with a special interest in behavior for 26 years, I, too, have opinions. I have also trained horses from babyhood to performance. One thing my last trainer helped me with was to train my horse to convince him to work with me.... Well at 1500 lbs, it was a good idea... My horse training background opened up my eyes to learning how to work with, not against animals...


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Well obviously this is his technique on how he works with these types of dogs. And he has had great results. I don't really believe he wanted to get bit or have the dog fail. And since we don't know the history, we also don't know how the owner was bit either. Did he just walk by and get too close? A lot of unanswered questions. Too many for me to honestly give my opinion except that I would not tolerate that behavior period.


 
I agree he didn't WANT to get bit.
As for her failing, frankly, I don't know that he really knows enough to care. He provoked her. Pure and simple That dog was trying desparately to avoid conflict, and any novice behaviorist would see that. 
I won't tolerate a biter, and there are certainly dogs that should not be around children. This dog is very likely one, but in this situation she was antagonized into biting this "trainer". Period.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> I agree he didn't WANT to get bit.
> As for her failing, frankly, I don't know that he really knows enough to care. He provoked her. Pure and simple That dog was trying desparately to avoid conflict, and any novice behaviorist would see that.
> I won't tolerate a biter, and there are certainly dogs that should not be around children. This dog is very likely one, but in this situation she was antagonized into biting this "trainer". Period.


And we can agree to disagree


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And we can agree to disagree


 
You don't believe that the dog was trying to avoid conflict??? Really?
You don't agree that she was provoked? 

Huh. 


This must be why the guy is wildly popular with pet people.


----------



## Phoebe's mom

We were taught to pull the dogs tail and ears and put your hand in the food while the dog was eating from the day you brought it home. 
I agree that a kid should never be unsupervised around an eating dog, you can never be sure of what a kid is going to do just like you can never be sure what a dog is going to do. It's best to train both parties at a young age. 
If I want to mess with my dogs food, I will and they won't object to it. I never do because I have no reason to but the security that I can if need be is nice. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> You don't believe that the dog was trying to avoid conflict??? Really?
> You don't agree that she was provoked?
> 
> Huh.
> 
> 
> This must be why the guy is wildly popular with pet people.



I know nothing about this dog or what it was thinking in a few minute clip. Did he use a dominating technique? Yes. That is how he works with certain types of behaviors. I also don't know if other types of trainers/tecniques were used and failed. 

Nice! Please tell why you think he is wildly popular with pet people


----------



## Sally's Mom

Actually, you know exactly what the dog was thinking right before she bit him. I see it and I believe PG, Tippy, and Ljilly see it as well. Holly was exhibiting appeasement behaviors, squinting her eyes, turning her head, averting her eyes... She was in conflict, she quite simply did not know what to do next. Had CM not been so intent on dominating the dog, he would have seen it. At that moment he should have stopped... In my opinion, by the time she bit him it doesn't seem like possession aggression to me.

And I would never advocate that someone pull their dogs ears and tails to get them used to it. In my simple mind, that is crazy. Simply by grooming my dogs, they get used to handling....


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I know nothing about this dog or what it was thinking in a few minute clip. Did he use a dominating technique? Yes. That is how he works with certain types of behaviors. I also don't know if other types of trainers/tecniques were used and failed.
> 
> Nice! Please tell why you think he is wildly popular with pet people


 
Based on the sales of his books and videos, the numbers who view his television program, and even the comments here on this forum, it would be difficult to say that he isn't.

This "few minute clip" was long enough to show the reaction of a dog to a person intimidating her and either not recognizing, or choosing to ignore, her desire not to engage agressively and finally being pushed to self-defend.


----------



## Summer's Mom

While it is commonly advised (by whoever) to constantly "disturb" an eating puppy and take the food away and give it back repeatedly to get them "used" to it, or to teach them who's boss, or whatever - I tend to disagree. It may be fine with certain temperaments. But even for a reasonable dog, just imagine from the time you were a baby every time you started enjoying your biscuit your mom or dad came and ripped it away, left you stunned then gave it back.. over time wouldn't you start holding on tighter to your biscuit or trying to run and hide whenever you see them coming? It's the same for a poor dog who is taught from day one that they had better guard what they have because it may be taken away at any minute.

Others may have mentioned, the kinder and probably more sensible method of teaching a dog to tolerate petting and people near food would be to condition them to believe that people being around is safe and actually means good things happen. To do this, throw a piece of meat or better food into their bowl whenever getting near or touching them while eating. This can be started from young and will help prevent guarding issues. It can also be used to work on existing guarding issues, albeit more gradually.


----------



## Ljilly28

I speculate this episode was marketed/titles as "The WORST Bite" to prove an overall point dear to Caesar as the show goes off the air: that the yellow lab bit him, not the pit bull. Do I believe this is his worst bite ever? No. 

Either Caesar was way off his game and got bitten, or he provoked the dog to bite purposely but got more bite than he bargained for. I cannot say which, yet the dog's behavior/signals are just unmistakable as Sally'sMom describes. Anyone even slightly trained in dog calming signals and body language sees the appeasing gestures and the warnngs. This dog could have bitten him much earlier. 

We just rehabilitated and placed a golden Nina, who was "alpha rolled" by an ex marine for pulling on her leash and eating the other dog's food. She bit him one day. Her toes were badly broken by the kids in the house. Yup. She is a feminine, lovely, happy sprite of a golden retriever who showed zero aggression about food or anything else once in a dog-fluent environment. 

If you are a pet owner drawn to winning through force & intimidation, you are going to lose something between yourself and your dog even if you do not get bitten. The best that can happen is that you win the battle or many battles, but you lose the purity of trust the dog has in you. As Sally'sMom said so well, the dog is in conflict about you- sometimes for life- and that, to me, is sad. You cannot hard stare, manhandle, strike, alpha roll, and dominate a dog without losing something that could flourish between you.


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Sally's Mom said:


> By turning her head, Holly was showing appeasement behavior, yet CM persisted on antagonizing her. She was clearly giving signals that she was trying not to engage...


 
I think CM would say, that "trying not to engage" = avoidance, which is "fight or flight response" and thus, not submission, which is what a pack leader would command. 

If you had a child that ignored what you said, you wouldn't take that as successful, that would be ignoring/avoiding what the parent said. 

Just some thoughts...


----------



## o0Shaz0o

I thoroughly enjoy The Dog Whisperer and learning "dog psychology" and seeing CM use these techniques. I endorse his philosophy. Looks like he misread this dog, and was professional enough to acknowledge this! Good on him.

Dog training = human psychology (I am a psychologist) and it has limitations (for both dog and human really). Dog psychology appears to tap into the instincts of the dogs, primarily pack instincts. CM just replicates what a pack leader would do. 

When someone can acheive the results he has, with the difficult cases he has, in the same timeframe, then I will pay attention and give kudos. To me, I am result orientated, not qualification orientated... So what he hasn't got some paper on his wall? He has saved and helped so many dogs and people. 

And Wyatt's mommy, I echo pretty much 100% of what you had said in this thread. Just saying...  

Having said this, it is a nice time to reflect at the passion that results in such debate!


----------



## tippykayak

Sally's Mom said:


> I see it and I believe PG, Tippy, and Ljilly see it as well. Holly was exhibiting appeasement behaviors, squinting her eyes, turning her head, averting her eyes... She was in conflict, she quite simply did not know what to do next.


Yup. She's definitely resource guarding to start, but she tries about six things to either tell him she's nervous and/or to try to defuse the situation. He just keeps crowding in until she tells him off, at which point he hits her. She doesn't actually bite him until after she's been intimidated and hit once. When he reaches out again with the same hand to the same area, she bites it. I'm still stunned that he would reach out over her head after she had growled and snapped and been hit by that same hand seconds earlier. 

And to answer an earlier question, no real behaviorist would provoke a gratuitous aggression reaction. That makes good TV but bad behavior modification. If your goal is to teach the dog not to bite, you don't deliberately provoke a bite.

Most dogs will eventually bite if you continuously ignore their warning and calming signals and keep doing what you're doing to provoke them. A good behaviorist would have noticed the warning and calming initially and then worked on the behavior. There is no benefit to pushing the dog until she bites. She said "I'm going to bite you" about 10 times before she did. A good behaviorist would only need to see one warning and would not need to get bitten in order to know that the dog had bite potential.


----------



## Summer's Mom

o0Shaz0o said:


> If you had a child that ignored what you said, you wouldn't take that as successful, that would be ignoring/avoiding what the parent said.
> 
> Just some thoughts...


I don't think dogs can quite be compared to children.. For one thing, you can reason with a child, you can't reason with a dog. Dog behaviour is different from people behaviour. They dont rationalise actions or "choose" to antagonise people deliberately. They simply act in the way that seems to benefit them the most. In most reasonable cases, avoidance behaviours are great to see, because a dog that walks away from conflict or tries to defray a situation is much safer than a dog that engages. 

While resource guarding is horrible to see, and is something that we want to condition them out of, a resource guarding dog is NOT a "bad" dog. It is simply a dog that feels threatened and for some reason feels the need to protect what they have. There are ways to fix it without trying to act like a dog (look at Cesar posturing himself like a dog). We are afterall, humans. We are engaging in inter-species relations and we are supposed to be the "better" and "smarter" ones.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I agree, you cannot compare dogs to children. That is a huge jump..... I am speaking as a parent who has successfully raised two wonderful boys. And as a dog owner who has successfully raised none Goldens.


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Summer's Mom said:


> For one thing, you can reason with a child, you can't reason with a dog. Dog behaviour is different from people behaviour. They dont rationalise actions or "choose" to antagonise people deliberately.


I simple attempted to draw the paralell of respecting an authority figure. I am sorry this wasn't more clear! 



Summer's Mom said:


> ...avoidance behaviours are great to see, because a dog that walks away from conflict or tries to defray a situation is much safer than a dog that engages.


Sure I can see your point here. But avoidance is still not submission, any way you slice or dice it, which is what CM goes for every time. Dogs do not avoid their pack leader... Perhaps another external dog or fight sure... This is at least my interpretation or understanding of CM methods. 



Summer's Mom said:


> While resource guarding is horrible to see, and is something that we want to condition them out of, a resource guarding dog is NOT a "bad" dog. It is simply a dog that feels threatened and for some reason feels the need to protect what they have. There are ways to fix it without trying to act like a dog (look at Cesar posturing himself like a dog). We are afterall, humans. We are engaging in inter-species relations and we are supposed to be the "better" and "smarter" ones.


I think CM is smart for trying to speak to the instincts of the animal, the genetic language... Makes sense to me! Another over simplified human example (in the mood for them tonight!)... not to be taken too literal, but when I go to India, speaking English only gets me so far, however speaking in Hindi... now then I get results! :bowl:


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Sally's Mom said:


> I agree, you cannot compare dogs to children. That is a huge jump..... I am speaking as a parent who has successfully raised two wonderful boys. And as a dog owner who has successfully raised none Goldens.


Hahaha... As I mentioned above, wasn't meant to be taken so literal, just trying to pull on respecting an authority figure! 

Of course children and dogs are very different! Although, tell me some people don't treat their dogs like children!


----------



## inge

I don't believe humans are capable to speak genetic dog language, so to speak. CM trying to imitate a dog and looming over her is still a human. A dog that is really the pack leader usually does not need all these intimidating gestures.


----------



## o0Shaz0o

inge said:


> I don't believe humans are capable to speak genetic dog language, so to speak. CM trying to imitate a dog and looming over her is still a human. A dog that is really the pack leader usually does not need all these intimidating gestures.


If there is contention for pack position, or if there is no submission from a subordinate, then sure there would be "intimidating gestures"! I have watched my documentaries on dog packs 

Good point you raise on humans imitating pack leader stuff... I wonder how CM is, what I classify to be, successful? I wonder if he isn't speaking to their genetics/instincts what he is actually doing? That video was a CM mistake (as he addmitted), but truly that does define his legacy. I don't know, he must be doing something right!


----------



## Pointgold

o0Shaz0o said:


> I think CM would say, that "trying not to engage" = avoidance, which is "fight or flight response" and thus, not submission, which is what a pack leader would command.
> 
> If you had a child that ignored what you said, you wouldn't take that as successful, that would be ignoring/avoiding what the parent said.
> 
> Just some thoughts...


You cannot compare a dog to a child. 
This dog, based on the above assessment, could not win. If she looked at him she would not be submitting. If she didn't she wouldn't be submitting. Her body language was clearly stating that she was not going to challenge him, which should have been acceptable. His was clearly a body language read by the dog as challenging her to fight.


----------



## solinvictus

And some people treat their children like CM treated this dog. Instead of building trust and changing the dogs mind set he used fear and intimidation which just made Holly act out (flight or fight). Her choice was to fight to protect herself. After she tried many different body language signals to calm the situation down. Which he either was ignoring or he is just horribly inadequate in his trainer abilities to understand.

Is using fear and intimidation on children okay in the medical field?


----------



## Hunter'sMom

I think this whole thing is just sad all around. Sad that people will inevitably try to emulate his methods since they saw them on TV, at the detriment of their relationship with their dog. Sad that this dog's signals were ignored, forcing her to bite as a last resort. It just seems to me that this dog was pressured and threatened (I can't believe how he just kept cornering her), and I just can't see how this makes good TV. I have to wonder... if it weren't Cesar behaving like this, but someone else with less branding, would people still think this was acceptable?


----------



## vcm5

I am not nearly as experienced as so many of the people commenting here, but I saw the same things: this dog was afraid, insecure, uncomfortable and showed appeasement and avoidance behaviors and he continued to push. I think it was absolutely obvious what was about to happen.


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Pointgold said:


> You cannot compare a dog to a child.


Did you not read my previous comment? I shouldn't have to repeat myself for a third time.



Pointgold said:


> This dog, based on the above assessment, could not win. If she looked at him she would not be submitting. If she didn't she wouldn't be submitting. Her body language was clearly stating that she was not going to challenge him, which should have been acceptable. His was clearly a body language read by the dog as challenging her to fight.


Guess it is all in the way you looked at it. Fact is she wasn't submissive and she did bite and CM did not see it coming according to his own admission. Not 100% what you mean by the above assessment, I haven't made any assessment on the dog... your quote of mine was just some things I have learnt from watching CM. That is all.


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Hopefully we can all agree to disagree... As this thread is becoming a little too passive aggressive/aggressive and perhaps forgetting that we all want the best for our dogs and that we all make decisions based on what we think is best. Those decisions are going to be different for everyone. Lets just relax a little... Myself included!


----------



## Nomes

everyone makes mistakes...i've mis-read my horse before and ended up with a bruised kidney...it happens. Doesn't mean i don't know how to handle her normally though!  CM does a lot of good stuff with dogs. I just choose to look at this as one of his mistakes. Not to be repeated or copied by anyone hopefully!


----------



## Varmin41

I found two videos that are a good example of showing cesar millan techniques vs a veterinarian/animal behaviorist using counter conditioning

Ceasar method




vs

Dr. Sophia Yin






Just wanted to show how there are other ways of training and how by changing the underlying mind set of the dog it is much more effective then using dominance and intimating it into changing its behavior.

Another good video of using counter conditioning for aggression

Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> Based on the sales of his books and videos, the numbers who view his television program, and even the comments here on this forum, it would be difficult to say that he isn't.
> 
> This "few minute clip" was long enough to show the reaction of a dog to a person intimidating her and *either not recognizing, or choosing to ignore,* her desire not to engage agressively and finally being pushed to self-defend.


 
I asked you "why" you thought he was very successfull. As I took your sarcastic post (that is how I read it) as it was because of my little old opinion  We all know that isn't true. LOL!

He stated he didn't see it coming. So he admitted to his mistake in not recognizing. At least he admits he is human. Unlike some sideline judges And I am sure he has watched that tape over and over to see where he went wrong.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

o0Shaz0o said:


> Hahaha... *As I mentioned above, wasn't meant to be taken so literal, just trying to pull on respecting an authority figure! *
> 
> Of course children and dogs are very different! Although, tell me some people don't treat their dogs like children!


It was a great example and not taken literally here.


----------



## goldhaven

Great video's. Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy seeing the different methods. 
I don't really think that these two videos should be compared though. Even though both videos dealt with dog aggression, there were different reasons for the aggression. Since her dog was dealing with fear and his dog was dealing with dominance. I would like to see a video using Dr. Yins method on a dominant dog that was as aggressive as the dog that CM was dealing with. I also think that the breed of the dog really comes into play.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

solinvictus said:


> And some people treat their children like CM treated this dog. *Instead of building trust and changing the dogs mind set he used fear and intimidation which just made Holly act out (flight or fight)*. Her choice was to fight to protect herself. After she tried many different body language signals to calm the situation down. Which he either was ignoring or he is just horribly inadequate in his trainer abilities to understand.
> 
> Is using fear and intimidation on children okay in the medical field?


 
Again to be fair. None of us know the history of this dog. Perhaps this was a desparate last call before being put down. *Perhaps another type of trainer was used and failed.*


----------



## OutWest

This has been a really interesting thread... Obviously still many different training styles out in the world.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Animal behaviorists will tell you that a truly dominant dog does not behave aggressively, it is confident and doesn't have to. I would bet that most dogs labelled dominant have other reasons for aggression...


----------



## tippykayak

Sally's Mom said:


> Animal behaviorists will tell you that a truly dominant dog does not behave aggressively, it is confident and doesn't have to. I would beat that most dogs labelled dominant have other reasons for aggression...


Exactly! A lot of aggression is related much more to insecurity than to dominance. The nastiest bites are fear bites, not bully bites.


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I asked you "why" you thought he was very successfull. As I took your sarcastic post (that is how I read it) as it was because of my little old opinion  We all know that isn't true. LOL!
> 
> He stated he didn't see it coming. So he admitted to his mistake in not recognizing. At least he admits he is human. Unlike some sideline judges And I am sure he has watched that tape over and over to see where he went wrong.


You misinterpreted my post entirely.


----------



## caligal

I have learned a lot from watching his show. I used to be fearful of other dogs and would grip the leash tight on walks, or avoid completely by crossing the street. I was nervous, thus making my dog nervous. If a dog was off leash on a walk, I would become anxious and fearful. I learned to be calm and assertive and know how to better read dog body language by watching the show. I actually helped capture a pit mix in our neighborhood that was running loose and almost got hit by a car. I would never have done that when I was afraid of dogs. 

That being said, I don't like everything he does. I don't use the physical touching corrections he uses on the show. 

I also think the producers are trying to get higher ratings or something lately. Seeing more movie stars and even a show with playboy playmates dogs.....oh brother. So if he advertised "the worst bite" episode, I bet many fans and haters watched that one!

I liked the idea (mentioned above) of possibly feeding the dog in a crate, but then toddlers walk around with food and drop it..... Kind of hard to control those situations. 

I've had my challenges with my own dog, but never anything like the cases I see CM deal with. I respect him for wanting to help people so they don't end up dropping off yet another dog at a shelter. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## solinvictus

" Since her dog was dealing with fear and his dog was dealing with dominance"

Holly wasn't being dominant she was biting in fear.


----------



## goldhaven

Varmin41 said:


> I found two videos that are a good example of showing cesar millan techniques vs a veterinarian/animal behaviorist using counter conditioning
> 
> Ceasar method
> Shadow turns blue - YouTube
> vs
> 
> Dr. Sophia Yin
> 
> Dog Aggression: Podee's Aggressive to Other Dogs (Narrated) | drsophiayin.com - YouTube
> 
> Just wanted to show how there are other ways of training and how by changing the underlying mind set of the dog it is much more effective then using dominance and intimating it into changing its behavior.
> 
> Another good video of using counter conditioning for aggression
> 
> Training Aggression | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS





goldhaven said:


> Great video's. Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy seeing the different methods.
> I don't really think that these two videos should be compared though. Even though both videos dealt with dog aggression, there were different reasons for the aggression. Since her dog was dealing with fear and his dog was dealing with dominance. I would like to see a video using Dr. Yins method on a dominant dog that was as aggressive as the dog that CM was dealing with. I also think that the breed of the dog really comes into play.





solinvictus said:


> " Since her dog was dealing with fear and his dog was dealing with dominance"
> 
> Holly wasn't being dominant she was biting in fear.



These are the videos that I was referring to.


----------



## toliva

I just found the full episode on my on-demand list (Uverse) - watching it now. It aired on 9/15.

eta: That was interesting. I do believe that if the family had not contacted CM, the dog would have been eventually put down. No one said that, that is just my take on where things were going. CM made a lot of progress in the dog's rehab in his pack, but could not fix the problem well enough to put the dog in a home with a toddler safely. However, he did more with the dog that the family was able to do. What I found so interesting was how he used the pack in the rehab process. I'd never seen a CM episode before so maybe he does that all the time, but it was fascinating.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I find Cesar fascinating to watch, much in the same way I find Toddlers and Tiaras and Dance Moms interesting to watch. It is entertaining, nothing more, nothing less. Had I had girl children, they would never have participated in either venue to that extent. Same goes for Cesar.... I have been a member of an obedience club where the head trainer used aggression to deal with an aggressive(was it fear, possessive, etc aggression) dog. I'm all set. I have found some client's pets labelled dominant when in fact they have fear based aggression. Many owners create the aggression by how they handle the dogs.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

toliva said:


> I just found the full episode on my on-demand list (Uverse) - watching it now. It aired on 9/15.
> 
> eta: That was interesting. I do believe that if the family had not contacted CM, the dog would have been eventually put down. No one said that, that is just my take on where things were going. CM made a lot of progress in the dog's rehab in his pack, but could not fix the problem well enough to put the dog in a home with a toddler safely. However, he did more with the dog that the family was able to do. What I found so interesting was how he used the pack in the rehab process. I'd never seen a CM episode before so maybe he does that all the time, but it was fascinating.



Thanks! And yes he has rescued lots of dogs in these types of situations. Where otherwise they would be put down. Don't you just love how he introduces the new dog to the pack? It's fascinating how they check out the new kid. LOL


----------



## Selli-Belle

I just had to post this now, although I have not read the whole thread. The Lab is showing TONS of appeasement signals, she does not want to bite but she is backed into a corner where she has NO other choice. It is the fight or flight thing, she can't flee...so what can she do? 

Anyways, look at this analysis from a true behaviorist and see the appeasement signals she is trying to transmit, she is trying everything she knows to get him to back off and he keeps threatening her.


----------



## toliva

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Thanks! And yes he has rescued lots of dogs in these types of situations. Where otherwise they would be put down. Don't you just love how he introduces the new dog to the pack? It's fascinating how they check out the new kid. LOL


Agreed. Also, he brought a couple dogs from the pack to help in the beginning, at their home. You don't see that in the YouTube. It was interesting to see.


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> I simple attempted to draw the paralell of respecting an authority figure. I am sorry this wasn't more clear!
> 
> 
> 
> Sure I can see your point here. But avoidance is still not submission, any way you slice or dice it, which is what CM goes for every time. Dogs do not avoid their pack leader... Perhaps another external dog or fight sure... This is at least my interpretation or understanding of CM methods.
> 
> 
> 
> I think CM is smart for trying to speak to the instincts of the animal, the genetic language... Makes sense to me! Another over simplified human example (in the mood for them tonight!)... not to be taken too literal, but when I go to India, speaking English only gets me so far, however speaking in Hindi... now then I get results! :bowl:


In dogs avoidance IS submission, especially when it comes to the real meaning of dominance and submission. In a real behaviorist discussion, dominance and submission is only about which animal has priority access to a valuable resource. The one who gets it is dominant, the one who doesn't is submissive...that is it. So if she let him take priority access to the food bowl that he was dominant and she was submissive. The rest of the confrontation was about him being a bully and threatening her for his own ego.

In addition his inability to read her appeasement signs (the same as submissive signs but in technical terms) shows he isn't relating to the dog in a language she understands.


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> If there is contention for pack position, or if there is no submission from a subordinate, then sure there would be "intimidating gestures"! I have watched my documentaries on dog packs
> 
> Good point you raise on humans imitating pack leader stuff... I wonder how CM is, what I classify to be, successful? I wonder if he isn't speaking to their genetics/instincts what he is actually doing? That video was a CM mistake (as he addmitted), but truly that does define his legacy. I don't know, he must be doing something right!


The research on feral dog packs is that feral dogs don't live in "packs" nor do they act as a pack. Wolves live in a pack, but recent research on pack behavior has left far more questions on dominance/submission issues than it has answered. The one thing it has shown is that pack behavior is variable depending on the personalities of the individual pack members. 

The one thing that gets me is that Milan talks about the feral packs of dogs from his childhood....well, if a feral dog in rural Mexico has a behavior issue, they sure don't rehabilitate it, they shoot it. His idealized pack is rigorously selected for lack of aggression by culling the old-fashioned way. When I first met my future sister-in-law's family on a ranch in Oklahoma, they took us on a tour of the ranch and pointed out the dog they had shot for harassing the cattle. If a dog was a threat to humans they would have done the same thing, and these were owned working dogs, imagine what they would have done to feral dogs.


----------



## Pointgold

Sally's Mom said:


> I find Cesar fascinating to watch, much in the same way I find Toddlers and Tiaras and Dance Moms interesting to watch. It is entertaining, nothing more, nothing less. Had I had girl children, they would never have participated in either venue to that extent. Same goes for Cesar.... I have been a member of an obedience club where the head trainer used aggression to deal with an aggressive(was it fear, possessive, etc aggression) dog. I'm all set. I have found some client's pets labelled dominant when in fact they have fear based aggression. Many owners create the aggression by how they handle the dogs.


 

Not to mention editing, editing, editing.

Amazing how many people actually believe that he does all of this in 30 (minus commercial breaks) minutes.

I wanna _see_ the guy walk on water...


----------



## Selli-Belle

Nomes said:


> everyone makes mistakes...i've mis-read my horse before and ended up with a bruised kidney...it happens. Doesn't mean i don't know how to handle her normally though!  CM does a lot of good stuff with dogs. I just choose to look at this as one of his mistakes. Not to be repeated or copied by anyone hopefully!


BUT you don't have a TV show and claim to be a horse whisperer (or maybe you do).


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

toliva said:


> Agreed. Also, he brought a couple dogs from the pack to help in the beginning, at their home. You don't see that in the YouTube. It was interesting to see.



I'm glad Cesar got some progress out of the dog and that the owners in their last ditch effort called him instead of having the dog put down. I love how he incorporates his pack into his sessions.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> Not to mention editing, editing, editing.
> 
> Amazing how many people actually believe that he does all of this in 30 (minus commercial breaks) minutes.
> 
> I wanna _see_ the guy walk on water...


The show does not even come close protraying that the clients dogs progress in one 30 minute episode. He actually explains what they do and how many weeks he has some of the dogs at facility if need be etc. wow!


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> The show does not even come close protraying that the clients dogs progress in one 30 minute episode. He actually explains what they do and how many weeks he has some of the dogs at facility if need be etc. wow!


Yup. And it's still amazing how many people think he does it all in 30 minutes. 
Kinda like the "Do not iron clothes while wearing" label...


----------



## Florabora22

This video reminded me of another video where a child was being picked on by another kid... and after taking so much crap, the kid turned on his bully and pretty much kicked the crap out of him.

This dog was showing so many signs of insecurity (and I am a COMPLETE novice in dog behavior)... it broke my heart to watch her be tormented by Caesar.

Seriously though. If a guy waved a gun at you and said "Stay away from me or I'll shoot," would you walk up to him and kick him in the shins? Uh, no.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> Yup. And it's still amazing how many people think he does it all in 30 minutes.
> Kinda like the "Do not iron clothes while wearing" label...


Well then you must know a lot of ignorant people. Kinda like not watching the whole show to find out there was more to the story than the small clip that the op posted. Ignorance is bliss


----------



## Ljilly28

Treatment of Food Aggression in Dogs is About Finesse, Not Force | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


----------



## toliva

Ljilly28 said:


> Treatment of Food Aggression in Dogs is About Finesse, Not Force | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


To be fair, the owners and previous trainers tried many of those techniques (or eluded to that effect anyway), which did not work, from what I understood. Maybe the attempts were done incorrectly or just weren't right for that dog, none of us can say. Remember that this was the last ditch effort to save this dog. By the time CM was brought in, the problem was way out of control. 

Aside from how CM handled it, I think the owners & breeder bear the responsibility for where they ended up with this dog. They bought the puppy outside of a store, so either this was a BYB or a puppy mill dog. No known history of temperament. The level of aggression in that dog is 100% out of character for a lab.

They say the problem "suddenly started" at 5 months. One day the dog was perfect at the food bowl and the next day they cannot even approach. I question that. I think something happened to that puppy. The other thing that bothered me is that as you watch the full episode, you see that maybe the dog is underweight. In several scenes, you can see her ribs clearly. I am not saying she was intentionally mistreated but I can't help but wonder if the owners did right by her from the beginning. I don't know.


----------



## solinvictus

Goldhaven,

I apologize for not reading your post correctly. I didn't notice the other videos when I commented. Thanks for letting me know.


----------



## Hunter'sMom

I don't know if this link will work or not, but if it does, here is a body language dissection of the CM video. 

http://www.facebook.com/v/4655581307021


----------



## goldhaven

Hunter'sMom said:


> I don't know if this link will work or not, but if it does, here is a body language dissection of the CM video.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/v/4655581307021


I would really like to see some of the professionals comment on this. It didn't make sense to me. I was under the impression, maybe mistakenly so, that if you back down when the dog is growling at you, that is rewarding the dog for growling and that the dog will continue with this behavior. This video is great at dissecting the situation and telling what is being done wrong, I would love to see the same video, saying what should be done instead.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Hunter'sMom said:


> I don't know if this link will work or not, but if it does, here is a body language dissection of the CM video.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/v/4655581307021


LOL! I see a plug for Jim Crosby. ROFLMAO!

This is Cesars technique. Whether you agree with it or not. When he said he didn't see it coming. I believe he meant _*his* timing was off_. If he was on his mark that bite would have been avoided. He knew **** well that dog was capable and ready to bite him.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

toliva said:


> *To be fair, the owners and previous trainers tried many of those techniques (or eluded to that effect anyway), which did not work, from what I understood. Maybe the attempts were done incorrectly or just weren't right for that dog, none of us can say.* *Remember that this was the last ditch effort to save this dog. By the time CM was brought in, the problem was way out of control. *
> 
> Aside from how CM handled it, I think the owners & breeder bear the responsibility for where they ended up with this dog. They bought the puppy outside of a store, so either this was a BYB or a puppy mill dog. No known history of temperament. The level of aggression in that dog is 100% out of character for a lab.
> 
> They say the problem "suddenly started" at 5 months. One day the dog was perfect at the food bowl and the next day they cannot even approach. I question that. I think something happened to that puppy. The other thing that bothered me is that as you watch the full episode, you see that maybe the dog is underweight. In several scenes, you can see her ribs clearly. I am not saying she was intentionally mistreated but I can't help but wonder if the owners did right by her from the beginning. I don't know.


Thank you again! I also believe there is more to the story about this poor dog. Especially if there is no known history on him. Just glad he took it out on Cesar than some poor toddlers face.


----------



## Selli-Belle

But what if Caesar's technique in this case is stupid? You can say that I have stared down a grizzly bear three times and not been hurt. Does that mean staring down a grizzly bear is the smart thing to do? Should someone who believes that staring down grizzly bears is the correct technique have a tv show demonstrating him staring down grizzlies?

It reminds me of Timothy Treadwell, the grizzly photographer who wound up being killed by grizzlies in Alaska. If you asked any grizzly researcher worth their salt, they would and do say that what Treadwell was doing was at the very least ill informed. Did he have a "right" to do it? Sure. Was it stupid? I think so. Should he have had a show demonstrating his success with grizzlies? NOPE.

For any credible behaviorist, getting bit is failing! Ergo, the technique they used was a failure. Showing that a dog will bite is beside the point, no one disputes that a dog who is pushed beyond their threshold will bite, so why do it. In the case of Holly, everyone agreed that she was resource guarding and she would bite if pushed over her threshold.

One last point: It seems to me that the only submission signal that Milan accepts is a dog rolling on its back. However, if you are using a "pack" theory based on wolves, you need to understand that the ONLY time a wolf will force a strange wolf onto its back is if it is intending to kill the other wolf. For Holly to roll on her back in front of Milan, a threatening stranger, she would not be saying "you are the boss" but rather "I give up, kill me." 

It isn't a question of technique, it is a matter of reality.


----------



## Selli-Belle

toliva said:


> To be fair, the owners and previous trainers tried many of those techniques (or eluded to that effect anyway), which did not work, from what I understood. Maybe the attempts were done incorrectly or just weren't right for that dog, none of us can say. Remember that this was the last ditch effort to save this dog. By the time CM was brought in, the problem was way out of control.


We have no idea what techniques were tried as you yourself state. So we can't say that techniques like Sophia Yin's did not work. Unless we have real evidence from the other trainers they worked with it is the same as not having worked with them at all.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> But what if Caesar's technique in this case is stupid? You can say that I have stared down a grizzly bear three times and not been hurt. Does that mean staring down a grizzly bear is the smart thing to do? Should someone who believes that staring down grizzly bears is the correct technique have a tv show demonstrating him staring down grizzlies?
> 
> It reminds me of Timothy Treadwell, the grizzly photographer who wound up being killed by grizzlies in Alaska. If you asked any grizzly researcher worth their salt, they would and do say that what Treadwell was doing was at the very least ill informed. Did he have a "right" to do it? Sure. Was it stupid? I think so. Should he have had a show demonstrating his success with grizzlies? NOPE.
> 
> For any credible behaviorist, getting bit is failing! Ergo, the technique they used was a failure. Showing that a dog will bite is beside the point, no one disputes that a dog who is pushed beyond their threshold will bite, so why do it. In the case of Holly, everyone agreed that she was resource guarding and she would bite if pushed over her threshold.
> 
> One last point: It seems to me that the only submission signal that Milan accepts is a dog rolling on its back. However, if you are using a "pack" theory based on wolves, you need to understand that the ONLY time a wolf will force a strange wolf onto its back is if it is intending to kill the other wolf. For Holly to roll on her back in front of Milan, a threatening stranger, she would not be saying "you are the boss" but rather "I give up, kill me."
> 
> It isn't a question of technique, it is a matter of reality.


The reality is that this was not a typical dog out of control because he failed basic training. This was a last ditch effort to try to rehabilatate this dog. THIS WAS NOT A TRAINING SESSION. This wasn't his first rodeo and won't be his last.

I don't believe he was trying to show the dog could bite LOL! Everyone knew the dog bit, hence the WHOLE STORY. To say he failed because he got bit? Really? Dog trainers and behaviorists never get bit? LOL! I know neither do vets either LOL!

Nothing wrong with disagreeing with techniques, but comparing a domesticated dog to a grizzly bear? Really LOL!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> We have no idea what techniques were tried as you yourself state. So we can't say that techniques like Sophia Yin's did not work. Unless we have real evidence from the other trainers they worked with it is the same as not having worked with them at all.


And what if you found out that this Sophia did try and failed? Then what would you suggest?


----------



## Tayla's Mom

I've had friends tell me that Tayla wouldn't be an out of control mouther for more than one training session if I just followed CM and that because I'm following Sophia Yin/Patricia McConnel and my own behavorist/trainer that my methods are just not working. I have to disagree and modify. They may not work as fast but they are working. When we adopted Tayla at 4 months she was already a dog that didn't deal well with frustration and had no impulse or bite control. Rarely a day went by that I didn't get bloodied (not puncture bites) from teeth and bruised from her pinch biting. We have had her for 6 months now. I work harder with her than any dog I've ever had and sometimes I slip and get mad and frustrated, but it's been over six weeks since I've worn a band aid and her incidents of biting hard enough to bruise are down to maybe once a week. Might not seem like a great success to some, but for me it is wonderful. I can usually walk her without incident and if she does get the crazies on a walk I feel better able to handle it and it takes less time to get control and carry on. All done without the use of CM methods. Might take longer, but I hope we are building a lasting bond.


----------



## tippykayak

What's the point of a fast method if it addresses one problem behavior while making the underlying issues worse? A method might stop a dog from biting the TV trainer over the course of an episode, but if it makes a dog more nervous or more reactive in the long run, it's not a "successful" method, no matter what they show in the 22 minutes of air time.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Tayla's Mom said:


> I've had friends tell me that Tayla wouldn't be an out of control mouther for more than one training session if I just followed CM and that because I'm following Sophia Yin/Patricia McConnel and my own behavorist/trainer that my methods are just not working. I have to disagree and modify. They may not work as fast but they are working. When we adopted Tayla at 4 months she was already a dog that didn't deal well with frustration and had no impulse or bite control. Rarely a day went by that I didn't get bloodied (not puncture bites) from teeth and bruised from her pinch biting. We have had her for 6 months now. I work harder with her than any dog I've ever had and sometimes I slip and get mad and frustrated, but it's been over six weeks since I've worn a band aid and her incidents of biting hard enough to bruise are down to maybe once a week. Might not seem like a great success to some, but for me it is wonderful. I can usually walk her without incident and if she does get the crazies on a walk I feel better able to handle it and it takes less time to get control and carry on. All done without the use of CM methods. Might take longer, but I hope we are building a lasting bond.


Cesar himelf never says one session works LOL. You got bad advice from a friend. But in the end you found a method that works and that's awesome.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

This is Cesar playing with Holly months after she bit him:


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Ninde'Gold said:


> This is Cesar playing with Holly months after she bit him:


 
Wow! Where did you find that? However the nay sayers will say that it is a different dog and you will need to prove it


----------



## Sally's Mom

The issue was food possession aggression, right? So what does him playing with the dog in the yard prove? I had a beagle who would let you do anything to her until it involved food, especially highly coveted stolen food. Otherwise, she had no aggression...


----------



## mylissyk

tippykayak said:


> What's the point of a fast method if it addresses one problem behavior while making the underlying issues worse? A method might stop a dog from biting the TV trainer over the course of an episode, but if it makes a dog more nervous or more reactive in the long run, it's not a "successful" method, no matter what they show in the 22 minutes of air time.


And that is why every positive method trainer hates Cesar's methods. They create a powder keg dog who can explode at any time.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Sally's Mom said:


> The issue was food possession aggression, right? So what does him playing with the dog in the yard prove? I had a beagle who would let you do anything to her until it involved food, especially highly coveted stolen food. Otherwise, she had no aggression...


Because it shows he is still alive and playing would be my guess.


----------



## mylissyk

Hunter'sMom said:


> I don't know if this link will work or not, but if it does, here is a body language dissection of the CM video.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/v/4655581307021


I by no means have experience with aggressive dogs, but everything the dissection described I was thinking while I watched the video. Every single thing Cesar did was completely the wrong thing to do and forced this dog into a position where it felt it HAD to defend itself. I don't question the dog has food aggression, but this is totally and completely the wrong way to work with this dog. Aggression begets aggression, now she is worse and will be willing to aggress more quickly.

This whole things makes me sick to my stomach.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

Holly about to eat with tons of dogs around.

He's doing a lot of work with her. I give him credit for that. He didn't just say "put her down".


----------



## Sally's Mom

Eating with a lot of dogs around is different than getting in a dog's face and antagonizing it while eating. My six all eat side by side no problem, which proves nothing..just sayin...


----------



## Ninde'Gold

The pictures show he's still working with her. I can understand people not liking the guy but cmon you can't deny that he does help. He didn't just film the show then dump her. He took her to his personal home and is working on rehabilitating her.

He does a lot of good for the Pit Bull breed, too.


----------



## toliva

After 8 weeks of working with her, he had her to the point of being able to hold the food bowl while she ate, and put his hand in the bowl while eating. She might have been able to return to the home had they not had a child. He did make progress, but the dog is just not appropriate for a home with young children. So it was at the end of those 2 months that the couple came to say their goodbyes.

He also did some exercises where an older child fed him (his son?), which seemed to go well.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Ninde'Gold said:


> The pictures show he's still working with her. I can understand people not liking the guy but cmon you can't deny that he does help. He didn't just film the show then dump her. He took her to his personal home and is working on rehabilitating her.
> 
> He does a lot of good for the Pit Bull breed, too.


I loved watching him work with is side kick Pit bull Daddy. Does he still have him? I have not watched his show in a few years.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

toliva said:


> After 8 weeks of working with her, he had her to the point of being able to hold the food bowl while she ate, and put his hand in the bowl while eating. She might have been able to return to the home had they not had a child. He did make progress, but the dog is just not appropriate for a home with young children. So it was at the end of those 2 months that the couple came to say their goodbyes.
> 
> He also did some exercises where an older child fed him (his son?), which seemed to go well.


That's awesome!


----------



## Bolledeig

I just have to say that I think it's a shame how so many og you have very strong negative opinions of Cesar Millan without even watching a full episode.
Please watch a few episodes before deciding to dislike him/his methods.

Remember that he is working with very bad cases, AND remember that we can all make mistakes. 
I also think watching a clip on youtube edited by someone who probably dislikes him should be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## Bolledeig

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I loved watching him work with is side kick Pit bull Daddy. Does he still have him? I have not watched his show in a few years.


Daddy passed a couple of years ago I think.
I loved Daddy! He probably gave many many people a whole new perspective on pitbulls.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

Daddy did pass away.

He has Junior now, who Daddy picked out of a litter of Pits by walking up to him and licking him on the nose!! 

Junior is a STUNNING dog.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Bolledeig said:


> Daddy passed a couple of years ago I think.
> I loved Daddy! He probably gave many many people a whole new perspective on pitbulls.


Oh how sad! I think he was about 14 years old when I last saw him on a episode. So he lived a long life.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Since I have cable, I have watched Cesar a lot. Too aggressive for me.


----------



## Selli-Belle

Here is the 



. See how Jr acts around Milan!


----------



## Selli-Belle

Wyatt's mommy said:


> The reality is that this was not a typical dog out of control because he failed basic training. This was a last ditch effort to try to rehabilatate this dog. THIS WAS NOT A TRAINING SESSION. This wasn't his first rodeo and won't be his last.
> 
> I don't believe he was trying to show the dog could bite LOL! Everyone knew the dog bit, hence the WHOLE STORY. To say he failed because he got bit? Really? Dog trainers and behaviorists never get bit? LOL! I know neither do vets either LOL!
> 
> Nothing wrong with disagreeing with techniques, but comparing a domesticated dog to a grizzly bear? Really LOL!


If it wasn't a training session what in the world was it? It certainly wasn't a behavior analysis. He wasn't pushing her buttons simply to make sure the cast and crew were safe. The only other thing it may have been would cast Milan in such a bad light I don't want to go there. 

As I have said before, most trainers and behaviorists consider being bitten by a dog as failing in their jobs, i.e., they pushed the dog too far and/or failed to read the dog's body language. Every time a dog bites they practice that undesirable behavior and become more likely to bite again. Plus by pushing a dog over its threshold, the dog learns that humans are threatening and unwilling to listen to their appeasement signals.

Dogs are far more closely related to Grizzlies than they are to humans, however my analogy was more to do with people who go against the preponderance of scientific consensus and interact with animals in dangerous ways. 

And I have watched the show thank you.


----------



## Selli-Belle

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And what if you found out that this Sophia did try and failed? Then what would you suggest?


Why would you think Dr Yin's techniques would not work?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> Here is the follow up on Holly. See how Jr acts around Milan!


This whole clip and all you focus on tha Jr. is submissive? Unbelievable.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> Why would you think Dr Yin's techniques would not work?


That was not my question.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> If it wasn't a training session what in the world was it? It certainly wasn't a behavior analysis. He wasn't pushing her buttons simply to make sure the cast and crew were safe. The only other thing it may have been would cast Milan in such a bad light I don't want to go there.
> 
> As I have said before, most trainers and behaviorists consider being bitten by a dog as failing in their jobs, i.e., they pushed the dog too far and/or failed to read the dog's body language. Every time a dog bites they practice that undesirable behavior and become more likely to bite again. Plus by pushing a dog over its threshold, the dog learns that humans are threatening and unwilling to listen to their appeasement signals.
> 
> Dogs are far more closely related to Grizzlies than they are to humans, however my analogy was more to do with people who go against the preponderance of scientific consensus and interact with animals in dangerous ways.
> 
> And I have watched the show thank you.


So you would have no problem in search of a grizzlie and use your training skills on one?


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> In dogs avoidance IS submission, especially when it comes to the real meaning of dominance and submission. In a real behaviorist discussion, dominance and submission is only about which animal has priority access to a valuable resource. The one who gets it is dominant, the one who doesn't is submissive...that is it. So if she let him take priority access to the food bowl that he was dominant and she was submissive. The rest of the confrontation was about him being a bully and threatening her for his own ego.
> 
> In addition his inability to read her appeasement signs (the same as submissive signs but in technical terms) shows he isn't relating to the dog in a language she understands.


I was relaying what CM has said on his shows.

Flight, fight and avoidance (essentially the last two are the same) is not desirables as it is not full submission to the situation/pack-leader. That was contradict your knowledge above. And I think your explanation about "priority access" was great! Not sure though if this dog truly let CM take access or whether the dog was still tense, and waiting for him to move? The dog did look as though she had submitted... Which is why he got bit in the first place? Just some ideas... 

I agree aggression and dominance are not necessarily the same thing! Yay we agree on something! Again, from what I have heard from CM, submission and dominance are on the same continuum, whilst fight (aggression), flight (avoidance) are on the same continuum (fear response continuum?). 

Some posts earlier mentioned this dog is more likely to be fearful and biting in a fight mode, and is not dominant. In my opinion, you can have. A fearful dominant dog acting by fight response. Not that I know the WHOLE story of this dog, but that could be possible. The dog was dominant over the food after all? 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> The research on feral dog packs is that feral dogs don't live in "packs" nor do they act as a pack. Wolves live in a pack, but recent research on pack behavior has left far more questions on dominance/submission issues than it has answered. The one thing it has shown is that pack behavior is variable depending on the personalities of the individual pack members.
> 
> The one thing that gets me is that Milan talks about the feral packs of dogs from his childhood....well, if a feral dog in rural Mexico has a behavior issue, they sure don't rehabilitate it, they shoot it. His idealized pack is rigorously selected for lack of aggression by culling the old-fashioned way. When I first met my future sister-in-law's family on a ranch in Oklahoma, they took us on a tour of the ranch and pointed out the dog they had shot for harassing the cattle. If a dog was a threat to humans they would have done the same thing, and these were owned working dogs, imagine what they would have done to feral dogs.


As with everything, especially research orientated, you can find evidence on both sides of the fence. However main stream I am sure states dogs are pack animals (as are humans ancestors and arguably human, if we still had pure instincts!) which is what the basis of CM techniques are on. 

I think your comments about feral dogs in Mexico is heading a bit off the beaten track. Not really the point. 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

goldhaven said:


> I would really like to see some of the professionals comment on this. It didn't make sense to me. I was under the impression, maybe mistakenly so, that if you back down when the dog is growling at you, that is rewarding the dog for growling and that the dog will continue with this behavior. This video is great at dissecting the situation and telling what is being done wrong, I would love to see the same video, saying what should be done instead.


I think the same. Backing away from the dog when the dog is commanding something (say growling, or jumping on your, or walking towards you) is what CM would say submission. This is why I think CM kicks/pushes the dog back with his foot backwards (as well as creating distance) as it is a submissive behaviour. I have seen heaps of his videos where a dog will attack upon the human moving away from the dog after he starts growling. So interesting... 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> BUT you don't have a TV show and claim to be a horse whisperer (or maybe you do).


I think you are making a your comments a little too personal... Can we stick to the subject matter? 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

o0Shaz0o said:


> I think the same. Backing away from the dog when the dog is commanding something (say growling, or jumping on your, or walking towards you) is what CM would say submission. This is why I think CM kicks/pushes the dog back with his foot backwards (as well as creating distance) as it is a submissive behaviour. I have seen heaps of his videos where a dog will attack upon the human moving away from the dog after he starts growling. So interesting...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


I believe you can walk away from a vicious dog but by not turning your back. Been there done that and I was scared


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> last point: It seems to me that the only submission signal that Milan accepts is a dog rolling on its back. However, if you are using a "pack" theory based on wolves, you need to understand that the ONLY time a wolf will force a strange wolf onto its back is if it is intending to kill the other wolf. For Holly to roll on her back in front of Milan, a threatening stranger, she would not be saying "you are the boss" but rather "I give up, kill me."
> 
> It isn't a question of technique, it is a matter of reality.


That is not correct at all. CM does not expect a dog to follow it back or side. 

He has mentioned that a dog comfortable doing that is in a submissive state, but does not use this as a measure only. CM has had dogs in many postures and claims them to be submissive. Ears pack, mouth open, laying on tummy, side and back... Few things off the top of my head... 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

tippykayak said:


> What's the point of a fast method if it addresses one problem behavior while making the underlying issues worse? A method might stop a dog from biting the TV trainer over the course of an episode, but if it makes a dog more nervous or more reactive in the long run, it's not a "successful" method, no matter what they show in the 22 minutes of air time.


I don't think this is what CM does... And I don't think he methods are necessarily fast in such case we are discussing. I think his idea is to create calm, submission in the dog by being his pack leader... That would theoretically not create a nervous or reactive dog in the long run.


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Ninde'Gold said:


> Holly about to eat with tons of dogs around.
> 
> He's doing a lot of work with her. I give him credit for that. He didn't just say "put her down".


I have seen this episode... As one of the dogs around her is a dog CM is rehabbing... CM does go up and take the food of Holly without any concern. Now I have seen the bite (he mentions in the clip that Holly bit him) it is amazing to see the product afterwards. 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I believe you can walk away from a vicious dog but by not turning your back. Been there done that and I was scared ********


Oh sure... The episodes I was thinking about was people's own dogs... And little dogs too (I confess, I am a big dog girl!). By all means, do what you got to do with a vicious stranger dog! 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## BriGuy

Wyatt's mommy said:


> So you would have no problem in search of a grizzlie and use your training skills on one?


If I had to train a grizzly, I would for sure be using some tasty treats and not staring down the bear trying to convince him that he must submit to me!  I think that would make for a short training session.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

BriGuy said:


> If I had to train a grizzly, I would for sure be using some tasty treats and not staring down the bear trying to convince him that he must submit to me!  I think that would make for a short training session.


LOL! I think you may be right.


----------



## tippykayak

o0Shaz0o said:


> I don't think this is what CM does... And I don't think he methods are necessarily fast in such case we are discussing. I think his idea is to create calm, submission in the dog by being his pack leader... That would theoretically not create a nervous or reactive dog in the long run.


But how does popping a dog in the neck work towards making the dog calm? It might work to make the dog intimidated of the handler and thus appear calm, but I don't see why anybody would argue it's a valid step towards "calmness," particularly when it inspired such a backlash in the original video.


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> As with everything, especially research orientated, you can find evidence on both sides of the fence. However main stream I am sure states dogs are pack animals (as are humans ancestors and arguably human, if we still had pure instincts!) which is what the basis of CM techniques are on.
> 
> I think your comments about feral dogs in Mexico is heading a bit off the beaten track. Not really the point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


The leading expert in the behavior of feral, or as they are called free ranging dogs is L. Boitani. have you read any of his work? He has a chapter in *The Domestic Dog: Its Evolution, Behaviour and Interactions with People. *Ask an ethologist about free ranging dogs and their social behaviors, the information from people who had followed scientific protocols in their _research_ is there and that research is accepted by the rest of the scientific community.


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Well then you must know a lot of ignorant people. Kinda like not watching the whole show to find out there was more to the story than the small clip that the op posted. Ignorance is bliss


 
Nice. :no:


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> That is not correct at all. CM does not expect a dog to follow it back or side.
> 
> He has mentioned that a dog comfortable doing that is in a submissive state, but does not use this as a measure only. CM has had dogs in many postures and claims them to be submissive. Ears pack, mouth open, laying on tummy, side and back... Few things off the top of my head...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


Ears back, mouth open and laying down on the stomach are signs of a relaxed dog, not a submissive dog. There is no reason for Holly to be relaxed in this situation. The appeasement signals she was using are signs of trying to defuse the situation. Have you read Turgid Rugas' work on calming signals? Or the work of Brenda Aloff?


----------



## Pointgold

Bolledeig said:


> I just have to say that I think it's a shame how so many og you have very strong negative opinions of Cesar Millan without even watching a full episode.
> Please watch a few episodes before deciding to dislike him/his methods.
> 
> Remember that he is working with very bad cases, AND remember that we can all make mistakes.
> I also think watching a clip on youtube edited by someone who probably dislikes him should be taken with a grain of salt.


 
I have watched dozens of his episodes and have read his book. 
I have strong negative opinions based on exactly that.


----------



## Selli-Belle

Wyatt's mommy said:


> So you would have no problem in search of a grizzlie and use your training skills on one?


What? I have no desire to go in search of a GRIZZLY or to try and train one and neither would an ethologist. However, I have to say that people who do train very large, very dangerous animals originated clicker training since if you do try and stare down or man handle a grizzly or killer whale you die.


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> I was relaying what CM has said on his shows.
> 
> Flight, fight and avoidance (essentially the last two are the same) is not desirables as it is not full submission to the situation/pack-leader. That was contradict your knowledge above. And I think your explanation about "priority access" was great! Not sure though if this dog truly let CM take access or whether the dog was still tense, and waiting for him to move? The dog did look as though she had submitted... Which is why he got bit in the first place? Just some ideas...
> 
> I agree aggression and dominance are not necessarily the same thing! Yay we agree on something! Again, from what I have heard from CM, submission and dominance are on the same continuum, whilst fight (aggression), flight (avoidance) are on the same continuum (fear response continuum?).
> 
> Some posts earlier mentioned this dog is more likely to be fearful and biting in a fight mode, and is not dominant. In my opinion, you can have. A fearful dominant dog acting by fight response. Not that I know the WHOLE story of this dog, but that could be possible. The dog was dominant over the food after all?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


The thing is that my explanation did not come from me, they came from ethological practice. CM does not use the definitions of dominance and submission that are used by ethologists, he has made up his own. There is no such thing as a "dominant" dog since dominance/submission only occur within a specific relationship or a specific encounter. A dog cannot be dominant over food, but it can guard the food. Therefore in the battle over the food bowl, CM was dominant and Holly was submissive. 

Another thing is that even in the most draconian wolf pack, higher ranking dogs are not free do take resources away from lower ranking wolfs (see David Mech's work). A lower ranking wolf can successfully retain a resource, such as food, from even the highest ranking wolf. The higher ranking dog (and remember these are members of the same pack who are well known to each other) may try to intimidate the lower ranking wolf, but the lower ranking wolf gives attitude right back and succeeds.

And to continue on the aspect of the pack, remember a pack is comprised of wolves who know each other intimately. These wolves have complex reciprocal relationships with each other of long standing. If a strange wolf tries to butt in and threaten members of the pack, that wolf is attacked not submitted to.


----------



## Charliethree

Selli-Belle said:


> Here is the follow up on Holly. See how Jr acts around Milan!


I am sure glad my dogs don't have reason to behave like that around me, none of them are happy to see this guy. The mere presence of this person is causing stress and anxiety in all the dogs, as soon as he goes in the gate they all move away from him and tense up. Jr is constantly lip licking,tense, slinking, body lowered, head down, turning belly up, the ultimate appeasement gesture, the 'shake off' these are all STRESS signals. Budha sitting down, looking away, panting, keep the distance, Holly looking away, going behind him, blinking,head lowered, ears flat, lip licking, trying to move away from him, paw lift, ALL stress signals.
Turn off the sound, watch the dogs - these are NOT happy dogs by any stretch.


----------



## mylissyk

Ninde'Gold said:


> Daddy did pass away.
> 
> He has Junior now, who Daddy picked out of a litter of Pits by walking up to him and licking him on the nose!!
> 
> Junior is a STUNNING dog.


Junior is also very afraid of Cesar, he cowers at Cesar's approach in every episode I have watched that he's been in since he has been grown.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> Nice. :no:



Hey you put it out there


----------



## mylissyk

Ninde'Gold said:


> Holly about to eat with tons of dogs around.
> 
> He's doing a lot of work with her. I give him credit for that. He didn't just say "put her down".



Where are you getting these pics?


----------



## Selli-Belle

* Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt's mommy  
Well then you must know a lot of ignorant people. Kinda like not watching the whole show to find out there was more to the story than the small clip that the op posted. Ignorance is bliss


Nice. :no:

*Pointgold, I can't find the original quote, but please say it was directed at me? Please Please?My ignorant people are two PhD animal behaviorists who both teach at the University of Michigan. Their research focuses on dog/dog interactions. One teaches a graduate level class on wolf and dog behavior and the other teaches classes in applied animal behavior and is a CAAB. They frequently publish articles in BARK in addition to scholarly journals plus attend and present at conferences on animal behavior around the world.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> What? I have no desire to go in search of a GRIZZLY or to try and train one and neither would an ethologist. However, I have to say that people who do train very large, very dangerous animals originated clicker training since if you do try and stare down or man handle a grizzly or killer whale you die.


Me either LOL !


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Charliethree said:


> I am sure glad my dogs don't have reason to behave like that around me, none of them are happy to see this guy. The mere presence of this person is causing stress and anxiety in all the dogs, as soon as he goes in the gate they all move away from him and tense up. Jr is constantly lip licking,tense, slinking, body lowered, head down, turning belly up, the ultimate appeasement gesture, the 'shake off' these are all STRESS signals. Budha sitting down, looking away, panting, keep the distance, Holly looking away, going behind him, blinking,head lowered, ears flat, lip licking, trying to move away from him, paw lift, ALL stress signals.
> Turn off the sound, watch the dogs - these are NOT happy dogs by any stretch.


Actually does anyone know who that dog is? Because if it is Jr he should be 2 years old by now. Does that dog look like a 2 year old Pit?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> * Quote:
> Originally Posted by Wyatt's mommy
> Well then you must know a lot of ignorant people. Kinda like not watching the whole show to find out there was more to the story than the small clip that the op posted. Ignorance is bliss
> 
> 
> Nice. :no:
> 
> *Pointgold, I can't find the original quote, but please say it was directed at me? Please Please?My ignorant people are two PhD animal behaviorists who both teach at the University of Michigan. Their research focuses on dog/dog interactions. One teaches a graduate level class on wolf and dog behavior and the other teaches classes in applied animal behavior and is a CAAB. They frequently publish articles in BARK in addition to scholarly journals plus attend and present at conferences on animal behavior around the world.


Um look at the quote. You are safe are. You really that paranoid? And this has nothing 
against your achievements


----------



## mylissyk

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually does anyone know who that dog is? Because if it is Jr he should be 2 years old by now. Does that dog look like a 2 year old Pit?


The gray pit bull that was picking up the ball and staying far off to the left in the video is JR. He is a fearful, insecure, anxious dog. That's what Cesar Milan created in the dog that was supposed to replace Daddy as his rock solid temperment dog.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

mylissyk said:


> The gray pit bull that was picking up the ball and staying far off to the left in the video is JR. He is a fearful, insecure, anxious dog. That's what Cesar Milan created in the dog that was supposed to replace Daddy as his rock solid temperment dog.


But the other poster said daddy picked him out before he died which was 3 years ago?


----------



## Ljilly28

Wyatt's mommy said:


> He has saved a a lot of dogs that would have been put to sleep.


The same can be said for 1000s of trainers around the country. There are countless talented trainers working with DA and HA dogs, and saving their lives in every state. There is a huge network of trainers fostering, rehabilitating, and placing reactive dogs. They just don't have TV shows.


----------



## Ljilly28

I watched the whole show when it aired, and I immediately started pondering why it was selected as the last show with such a dramatic title The Worst Bite. I wondered if it was filmed earlier on, but held back bc it was a whoopsy(I've been badly bitten three times- red nose pit bull, chow chow, and cocker spaniel, and I agree most people who work with 100s of reactive dogs per year do get bitten). I don't believe the point of the show was the topic of this particular lab/family, but rather which breed delivered "the worst bite". While that is my speculation, it is just a fact he blew it with this case and did a poor job reading the dog. 

This dog was pushed way beyond her initial presentation( resource guarding). The owner poked and prodded her, and had tried aversives too. This dog gave every appeasement signal in the book and went to great lengths not to bite. Most trainers and shelter managers who give the SAFER tests work with harder cases weekly. This was far from Caesar's toughest case, as he has shown great courage and timing with truly dangerous dogs. 

Ceasar is infinitely more skilled than this clip shows, even though I agree with Pointgold that the damage done to pet dogs whose owners try to Caesar Milan them without his virtuoso timing is a sad reality. (We just fostered and placed a golden who had that problem and could have been pts, and earlier in the year fostered a HA border collie. Clumsy, klutsy attempts to alpha roll a dog can create such damage).


----------



## Selli-Belle

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Um look at the quote. You are safe are. You really that paranoid? And this has nothing
> against your achievements


Read the post, they are not my achievements.


----------



## Selli-Belle

Wyatt's mommy said:


> But the other poster said daddy picked him out before he died which was 3 years ago?


CM says the gray pit is Junior. Maybe the Holly case was filmed previously and only used now in the show.


----------



## fostermom

The blue pit with the white chest is Junior. I didn't realize it was 3 years ago that Daddy died, it seems like it was just yesterday.


----------



## Pointgold

Selli-Belle said:


> * Quote:*
> * Originally Posted by Wyatt's mommy  *
> *Well then you must know a lot of ignorant people. Kinda like not watching the whole show to find out there was more to the story than the small clip that the op posted. Ignorance is bliss*
> 
> 
> *Nice. :no:*
> 
> Pointgold, I can't find the original quote, but please say it was directed at me? Please Please?My ignorant people are two PhD animal behaviorists who both teach at the University of Michigan. Their research focuses on dog/dog interactions. One teaches a graduate level class on wolf and dog behavior and the other teaches classes in applied animal behavior and is a CAAB. They frequently publish articles in BARK in addition to scholarly journals plus attend and present at conferences on animal behavior around the world.


 
I'd mentioned that there are a lot of people who actually think CM does what he does in 30 minutes or less (regardless of the disclaimers to the contrary). And it was suggested that I haven't watched anything more than a little clip and formed my opinion on that alone. 
Well, that dog don't hunt, as the saying goes, and arguing with someone adept at twisting my words is of no interest to me.


----------



## tippykayak

Selli-Belle said:


> What? I have no desire to go in search of a GRIZZLY or to try and train one and neither would an ethologist. However, I have to say that people who do train very large, very dangerous animals originated clicker training since if you do try and stare down or man handle a grizzly or killer whale you die.


Seriously. The research-based training techniques you're talking about are the ones they use to train orcas. The method for training an orca is pretty much clicker training. Orcas are definitely pack animals, but no human trainer tries to establish himself as head orca. A dog bites when you push its buttons like this, but you make an orca feel threatened or otherwise dangerously upset, _it just straight up kills you_.

Just for informational purposes, the only times orcas have killed humans has been when captive orcas turn on their trainers. Never in the wild.


----------



## tippykayak

Selli-Belle said:


> And to continue on the aspect of the pack, remember a pack is comprised of wolves who know each other intimately.


Just to sidebar, since you mentioned Mech, not only do the wolves know each other intimately, but they're frequently related. Often the breeding pair (known in the older research as the alphas) are actually the parents of the rest of the wolves.


----------



## Sally's Mom

The behavior meeting I went to last weekend showed a video clip of Mech taking back much of what he wrote about wolf behavior. His conclusions were based on watching 1% of the wolves lives.


----------



## lgnutah

I have kicked a dog. I was walking Brooks on leash, and as we passed a house, an off leash GSD ran into the street and attacked Brooks. He kept going and going after Brooks rear end as Brooks kept wheeling around trying to keep from being bitten.
As I screamed for the people to get their dog, I kicked and kicked at the dog to try to get him to stop attacking Brooks.
And I would do it again.


----------



## tippykayak

Sally's Mom said:


> The behavior meeting I went to last weekend showed a video clip of Mech taking back much of what he wrote about wolf behavior. His conclusions were based on watching 1% of the wolves lives.


That's interesting. Do you remember specifically what he walked back? Was it his super old stuff in favor of the later stuff I linked earlier?


----------



## Selli-Belle

Sally's Mom said:


> The behavior meeting I went to last weekend showed a video clip of Mech taking back much of what he wrote about wolf behavior. His conclusions were based on watching 1% of the wolves lives.


Is this the 



 you watched?

Also, this is a recent article by Marc Bekoff, probably the world's leading expert on Coyotes.


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> Ears back, mouth open and laying down on the stomach are signs of a relaxed dog, not a submissive dog. There is no reason for Holly to be relaxed in this situation. The appeasement signals she was using are signs of trying to defuse the situation. Have you read Turgid Rugas' work on calming signals? Or the work of Brenda Aloff?


Just stating some of the signs CM has mentioned... I think relaxed and submission may not be mutually exclusive? Perhaps some overlap? 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> The thing is that my explanation did not come from me, they came from ethological practice. CM does not use the definitions of dominance and submission that are used by ethologists, he has made up his own. There is no such thing as a "dominant" dog since dominance/submission only occur within a specific relationship or a specific encounter. A dog cannot be dominant over food, but it can guard the food. Therefore in the battle over the food bowl, CM was dominant and Holly was submissive.
> 
> Another thing is that even in the most draconian wolf pack, higher ranking dogs are not free do take resources away from lower ranking wolfs (see David Mech's work). A lower ranking wolf can successfully retain a resource, such as food, from even the highest ranking wolf. The higher ranking dog (and remember these are members of the same pack who are well known to each other) may try to intimidate the lower ranking wolf, but the lower ranking wolf gives attitude right back and succeeds.
> 
> And to continue on the aspect of the pack, remember a pack is comprised of wolves who know each other intimately. These wolves have complex reciprocal relationships with each other of long standing. If a strange wolf tries to butt in and threaten members of the pack, that wolf is attacked not submitted to.


Various definitions occur in language... Sure CMs may deviate from ethologists... Not going to dispute as I don't know enough. Not sure there cannot be a dominant dog now... Common sense tells me otherwise. Food guarding perhaps... I see your point there... And I guess this could stem from many underlying causes.

Wasn't it you that earlier mentioned dominance means access to resources? (Second paragraph)... I didn't mention this and I wonder if you contradicted your earlier post (somewhere in this epic thread).




Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> The leading expert in the behavior of feral, or as they are called free ranging dogs is L. Boitani. have you read any of his work? He has a chapter in *The Domestic Dog: Its Evolution, Behaviour and Interactions with People. *Ask an ethologist about free ranging dogs and their social behaviors, the information from people who had followed scientific protocols in their _research_ is there and that research is accepted by the rest of the scientific community.


I wonder why the techniques of CM using his pack are so effective? 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Ljilly28 said:


> The same can be said for 1000s of trainers around the country. There are countless talented trainers working with DA and HA dogs, and saving their lives in every state. There is a huge network of trainers fostering, rehabilitating, and placing reactive dogs. They just don't have TV shows.


And I applaud them also.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Pointgold said:


> I'd mentioned that there are a lot of people who actually think CM does what he does in 30 minutes or less (regardless of the disclaimers to the contrary). And it was suggested that I haven't watched anything more than a little clip and formed my opinion on that alone.
> Well, that dog don't hunt, as the saying goes, and arguing with someone adept at twisting my words is of no interest to me.



Actually I said even though Cesar makes it clear that results don't happen in a 30 minute show people would believe they do? And you replyed "yep". Thus the ignorant comment. Sorry too lazy to go back and copy and paste.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Yes, Selli Belle, that is the video.


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> Just stating some of the signs CM has mentioned... I think relaxed and submission may not be mutually exclusive? Perhaps some overlap?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


A dog can be relaxed in the company of a higher ranking animal. Whether a dog can be actively submitting and be relaxed at the same time, I don't know. A dog can offer submissive signals as a ritualized behavior when in play or in greeting. At that point, I don't think the other member of the dyad (pair) is actively seeking submission, for example when a puppy licks an adult dog's face in greeting a dog plops down on its back to play. In these contexts, the appeasement signals have turned into "pro-social" behaviors, that is behaviors seeking to prolong or deepen the encounter between the two dogs.


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> Various definitions occur in language... Sure CMs may deviate from ethologists... Not going to dispute as I don't know enough. Not sure there cannot be a dominant dog now... Common sense tells me otherwise. Food guarding perhaps... I see your point there... And I guess this could stem from many underlying causes.
> 
> Wasn't it you that earlier mentioned dominance means access to resources? (Second paragraph)... I didn't mention this and I wonder if you contradicted your earlier post (somewhere in this epic thread).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


That is exactly my point, dominance is a VERY complex soup in a wolf pack made up of well known conspecifics (members of the same species). 

Let me give you some examples. If a pack has made a kill, the highest ranking wolves (typically the breeding pair) will allow other members of the pack to join them or not, they have priority access to that kill. However, if a lower ranking member of the pack kills a rabbit or finds a dead rabbit, they will get to keep that rabbit even if a higher ranking wolf would like it. In the first situation, the higher ranking wolf is dominant, in the second situation the lower ranking wolf is dominant. That is because dominance is only relevant to describe a situation and the relationship of the two animals in that specific situation.


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> I wonder why the techniques of CM using his pack are so effective?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


How do we know they are? Does he provide any statistics as to the number of people who contact him for help as related to the number of clients he accepts as to the number of successful rehabilitations?


----------



## tippykayak

Selli-Belle said:


> That is exactly my point, dominance is a VERY complex soup in a wolf pack made up of well known conspecifics (members of the same species).
> 
> Let me give you some examples. If a pack has made a kill, the highest ranking wolves (typically the breeding pair) will allow other members of the pack to join them or not, they have priority access to that kill. However, if a lower ranking member of the pack kills a rabbit or finds a dead rabbit, they will get to keep that rabbit even if a higher ranking wolf would like it. In the first situation, the higher ranking wolf is dominant, in the second situation the lower ranking wolf is dominant. That is because dominance is only relevant to describe a situation and the relationship of the two animals in that specific situation.


I already hit "thanks," but I wanted to add that this is a truly elegant explanation and really helped me grasp a better sense of contextual dominance.


----------



## MercyMom

*My final verdict/analysis on Ceasar and Holly*

After watching the episode in it's entirety, I wish to give my final verdict. I watched the previous episodes prior to this one with Tigger the Chihuahua mix and Dan the black lab. I have watched his show many times now, and I thought he did pretty well with Tigger and Dan. Dan became submissive and friendly when Ceasar stood over his bowl. Hmmm. Anyway, after seeing Ceasar's worst bite from start to finish, it is a very sad outcome indeed. He had established a relationship with Holly and it looked like an improvement was made at first. Then the showdown occured. If this dog unlike Dan was agressive due to insecurity, challenging her to submit was not the answer as it was with Dan. Dan was territorial with anger and fierceness. Holly was not. Ceasar did push Holly too far. Yes, she had issues, but I think Ceasar aggrivated and exaserbated them. Like he did with Tigger, he should have earned Holly's trust and built up her confidence. He even acknowledges that Holly had insecurity issues. Then why force her away from her food, making her even more insecure? Holly had gotten worse after Ceasar left. Ceasar needed stitches. Perhaps if Ceasar had of handled Holly a little differently at first, or second, then she might not have gotten worse like that. Ceasar was shocked since earlier it appeared like Holly had made progress. But unlike Dan, she was showing signs of insecurity aggression, which may have given the appearance of her submitting. And now Holly has to stay at Ceasar's center for the rest of her life. She might have improved, but he should have worked to gain her trust like he did with other dogs. Even though it is true that other pack members put other members in their place including the other dogs towards Holly, Ceasar, like everyone said, was taking the wrong approach with Holly, pushing her buttons too much.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Selli-Belle said:


> How do we know they are? Does he provide any statistics as to the number of people who contact him for help as related to the number of clients he accepts as to the number of successful rehabilitations?


Perhaps you should contact him and find out instead of second guessing?


----------



## Pointgold

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually I said even though Cesar makes it clear that results don't happen in a 30 minute show people would believe they do? And you replyed "yep". Thus the ignorant comment. Sorry too lazy to go back and copy and paste.


I know what you said.


----------



## Selli-Belle

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Perhaps you should contact him and find out instead of second guessing?


It is not "second guessing," you made the claim that his techniques are so successful, I was simply asking for some numbers to back up your claim. That is how you prove your position.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

I've said my piece about CM more than once on this forum and seeing as it's all been said here by others, I won't repeat it all again. But one thought regarding the questions asked about his pack. If they are successful with a dog like Holly, it's likely because they understand and respond to her calming and appeasement signals appropriately. That and the fact that they are dogs, communicating and interacting like dogs do... not a human making a clumsy attempt to do so.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> That is exactly my point, dominance is a VERY complex soup in a wolf pack made up of well known conspecifics (members of the same species).
> 
> Let me give you some examples. If a pack has made a kill, the highest ranking wolves (typically the breeding pair) will allow other members of the pack to join them or not, they have priority access to that kill. However, if a lower ranking member of the pack kills a rabbit or finds a dead rabbit, they will get to keep that rabbit even if a higher ranking wolf would like it. In the first situation, the higher ranking wolf is dominant, in the second situation the lower ranking wolf is dominant. That is because dominance is only relevant to describe a situation and the relationship of the two animals in that specific situation.


I see what you are saying... 

This is a really interesting point that dominance is situation-specific rather than trait-specific. 

I have been thinking about this "pack stuff" a lot today and I wonder whether there is a continuum of pack orientation, with one end being less oriented and the other being very oriented.... So with some of my (brief) reading on the domesticated dog, they would be less pack oriented than say the Dingo (Aussie plus there!) and then the Wolf who are more (very?!) pack oriented. I then wondered whether this relationship was correlated with the availability of food and perhaps mediated or moderated by the relationships with humans. So to simply, I am wondering whether the closer to humans the species is, the closer to food the species is, then the less pack oriented the species may be. Wolfs and dingos are predators, whilst the domestic dog is a scavenger This however does not mean the species is not pack oriented. I have been to India a few times and truly have seen what a pack can do to a forging pack there... Makes me wonder...

Human beings are not "pack" oriented, but we are still social creatures that benefit social inclusion. We also have a hierarchy often within out families... Whilst is may not be as strong as our ancestors, it still speaks to us? 

Just some thoughts...


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> A dog can be relaxed in the company of a higher ranking animal. Whether a dog can be actively submitting and be relaxed at the same time, I don't know. A dog can offer submissive signals as a ritualized behavior when in play or in greeting. At that point, I don't think the other member of the dyad (pair) is actively seeking submission, for example when a puppy licks an adult dog's face in greeting a dog plops down on its back to play. In these contexts, the appeasement signals have turned into "pro-social" behaviors, that is behaviors seeking to prolong or deepen the encounter between the two dogs.


I wonder whether pro-social behaviours are submission behaviours, or again, there is overlap? Clearly a behaviour may have multiple interpretations though... Whether it be pro-social, submissive or perhaps something else entirely. As with human body language (I keep going back to this, as this is what I know best) one behaviour/action/body signal can mean different things, for different people, dependent on sometimes the context. 


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Selli-Belle said:


> It is not "second guessing," you made the claim that his techniques are so successful, I was simply asking for some numbers to back up your claim. That is how you prove your position.


His 9 seasons and international recognition are enough for me to classify him as being successful. I don't see anyone else having this next to their name. 




Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## tippykayak

o0Shaz0o said:


> His 9 seasons and international recognition are enough for me to classify him as being successful. I don't see anyone else having this next to their name.


Jersey Shore has six seasons so far and probably more international recognition.

Success on TV is totally unrelated to expertise. CM's TV success doesn't mean he's a bad trainer, but it doesn't really say anything about his success rate with actual dogs.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

o0Shaz0o said:


> His 9 seasons and international recognition are enough for me to classify him as being successful. I don't see anyone else having this next to their name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


You've made some very thoughtful posts in this thread and there are others who are much better equipped than I am to discuss pack theory with you... but I wanted to address this definition of success a little. Just some food for thought:

Brad Pattison's show has aired for 6 seasons in Canada and he is recognized internationally. He is rough and borderline abusive toward the dogs... jerking them and smacking them frequently. Is that success?

Victoria Stilwell is a positive trainer whose television show is called "It's Me or the Dog." It aired for 4 seasons while being filmed in the UK and is currently in its 3rd or 4th season filming here in the US. She is also internationally known. Though she has a couple of seasons to catch up to CM, I'd say she's pretty on par with him when it comes to the kind of success you are speaking of. Have you looked into her?

Though they do not have TV shows, there are a number of internationally renowned trainers, behaviorists throughout the world. These folks include (just off the top of my head) Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, and Paul Owens (the man who originated the "Dog Whisperer" moniker - which CM stole). I think the success of these three, and others like them who are doing the hard day-to-day work and research without the dramatics of a TV show, far outweighs that of CM. Have you read any of their books?

At the end of the day, a TV show is edited to show you exactly what the producers want you to see. What matters most is whether the techniques work. Cesar's do not. Not for the average person trying to imitate him... and frequently (by the number of times I saw him bitten on his show) not for him either. Calling learned helplessness by another name ("calm submission") does not change what it is... and doesn't change that it could be a powder keg ready to explode at any moment. In my opinion, it takes a lot more to be truly "successful" than a bunch of charisma and a well recognized brand.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## Selli-Belle

o0Shaz0o said:


> I wonder whether pro-social behaviours are submission behaviours, or again, there is overlap? Clearly a behaviour may have multiple interpretations though... Whether it be pro-social, submissive or perhaps something else entirely. As with human body language (I keep going back to this, as this is what I know best) one behaviour/action/body signal can mean different things, for different people, dependent on sometimes the context.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


Pro-social behaviors (rolling over and exposing the belly, licking the other dog's muzzle) are the same as appeasement signals, it is the context that determines which they are. They have become ritualized to say I am happy, like when a Human sees someone they love, gets excited and talks in a high pitched voice. Pro-social behaviors are behaviors that begin when a dog is a puppy and encourage continued interaction. In human's both hugging and kissing have their origins in baby behavior, but have become ritualized into signs of affection, or pro-social behaviors. 

And then you have the calming or disengagement signals (yawning, looking away, tongue flicks) which are also signs of stress. The calming signals are those which say "I am so not challenging you, so please relax." In general, they are seeking to end the interaction. They are ritualized actions that say, "I am not aroused, I am not focusing on you, I am relaxed." In humans, calming signals are very similar, looking away, tongue flicks (or licking of lips), even yawning. 

A growl is a challenge saying "I don't like what you are doing and if you don't stop I will bite."

I tend to think of the different types of signals as a dog communicating with the other as to what direction he would like them to go. The pro-social signals say "come here please!," the calming signals are saying "go around me, I don't want to interact" and the aggressive signals as saying "go straight back the way you came from!"


----------



## Wendi

The full episode to the posted video aired last night in my area. The video clip really does not show the whole situation. The video clip makes it look like, to me, that this was the first step in what he did, it wasn't. 

Also, he took the dog home to his home and to the behavioral compound for months for rehabilitation, but in the end advised the family not to take Holly home because he didn't feel she could be trusted with their 18 month old son.

This may have been mentioned in this thread. I pretty much stopped reading when it seemed more were intent on personal attacks than actually discussion.


----------



## solinvictus

This article has Holly's video toward the bottom and another video on a different approach from CM's of another dog that has a problem with resource guarding. It also has a update on Shadow and two other dogs that were on his show. 

Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers


----------



## goldhaven

solinvictus said:


> This article has Holly's video toward the bottom and another video on a different approach from CM's of another dog that has a problem with resource guarding. It also has a update on Shadow and two other dogs that were on his show.
> 
> Cesar Millan - The Dog Whisperer: Critics Answers


Thanks so much for posting that video. It is great to see an alternative that works. That was a much smaller dog and I don't think her guarding issue was as severe as Holly's but I would love to know if something like this was used on Holly before Cesar showed up. I really wish I knew more about what made Holly that aggressive and what was done prior to CM showing up. 
I don't consider Holly a success story for CM. A true success story would have been if he was able to placed her back in her home, but I don't know if that could have happened no matter what method was used. 

I would like to ask all of the positive trainers that have been posting to please respond to this question. 
Have you ever dealt with a dog similar to Holly, using only positive methods and has it worked well enough that the dog was able to stay with the family?

solinvictus - Thanks again for your post. I much prefer to see posts about solutions and methods that work, complete with visual aids, than the bashing of a method that some don't agree with.


----------



## Selli-Belle

goldhaven said:


> Thanks so much for posting that video. It is great to see an alternative that works. That was a much smaller dog and I don't think her guarding issue was as severe as Holly's but I would love to know if something like this was used on Holly before Cesar showed up. I really wish I knew more about what made Holly that aggressive and what was done prior to CM showing up.
> I don't consider Holly a success story for CM. A true success story would have been if he was able to placed her back in her home, but I don't know if that could have happened no matter what method was used.
> 
> I would like to ask all of the positive trainers that have been posting to please respond to this question.
> Have you ever dealt with a dog similar to Holly, using only positive methods and has it worked well enough that the dog was able to stay with the family?
> 
> solinvictus - Thanks again for your post. I much prefer to see posts about solutions and methods that work, complete with visual aids, than the bashing of a method that some don't agree with.


I believe there are members of this forum who have used trading type training to help with resource guarders.


----------



## Pointgold

o0Shaz0o said:


> His 9 seasons and international recognition are enough for me to classify him as being successful. I don't see anyone else having this next to their name.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


 
Marketing. 
There are plenty of people with season after season of television shows and who are internationally recognized. Doesn't mean squat anymore regarding their credentials and how "successful" they are.
Can you spell Kim Kardashian?


----------



## o0Shaz0o

Jersey's Mom said:


> You've made some very thoughtful posts in this thread and there are others who are much better equipped than I am to discuss pack theory with you... but I wanted to address this definition of success a little. Just some food for thought:
> 
> Brad Pattison's show has aired for 6 seasons in Canada and he is recognized internationally. He is rough and borderline abusive toward the dogs... jerking them and smacking them frequently. Is that success?
> 
> Victoria Stilwell is a positive trainer whose television show is called "It's Me or the Dog." It aired for 4 seasons while being filmed in the UK and is currently in its 3rd or 4th season filming here in the US. She is also internationally known. Though she has a couple of seasons to catch up to CM, I'd say she's pretty on par with him when it comes to the kind of success you are speaking of. Have you looked into her?
> 
> Though they do not have TV shows, there are a number of internationally renowned trainers, behaviorists throughout the world. These folks include (just off the top of my head) Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, and Paul Owens (the man who originated the "Dog Whisperer" moniker - which CM stole). I think the success of these three, and others like them who are doing the hard day-to-day work and research without the dramatics of a TV show, far outweighs that of CM. Have you read any of their books?
> 
> At the end of the day, a TV show is edited to show you exactly what the producers want you to see. What matters most is whether the techniques work. Cesar's do not. Not for the average person trying to imitate him... and frequently (by the number of times I saw him bitten on his show) not for him either. Calling learned helplessness by another name ("calm submission") does not change what it is... and doesn't change that it could be a powder keg ready to explode at any moment. In my opinion, it takes a lot more to be truly "successful" than a bunch of charisma and a well recognized brand.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Just wanted to address this post, then I will call it a day on this thread. I have learnt new things from hearing different opinions. It got a little ugly there for a while... But hey, seemed to work out OK in the end. 

I am familiar with Victoria Stilwell, not That Brad person though (I'll YouTube)! Good dog training methods from Victoria. She is also a character! 

CM is known and aired on TV for his techniques... Comparing to KK (precious post) and Snookie seems a bit weird as they aren't being aired for a craft or skill. I have used his techniques with separation anxiety and had some good success there too, so speaking from my own opinion. I don't think you can say his techniques "don't work"... Too black and white. They get results, but it seems most people posting don't like the way in which they achieve those results? 

Anyway, thanks for your time all! 




Sent from my iPad using PG Free


----------



## Pointgold

I spent some time last night viewing videos of CM working with dogs.
My conclusion is the same as when I briefly worked for a dentist and was instructed to never use the word "pain" - only "discomfort". CM uses the word "redirect" instead of "kick", "calm" instead of "choke", and "relax" instead of "pin to the ground".
Oh well. What do I know. I'm a trainer without a television show.


(He "redirects" dogs in the belly a LOT...)


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

o0Shaz0o said:


> Just wanted to address this post, then I will call it a day on this thread. I have learnt new things from hearing different opinions. It got a little ugly there for a while... But hey, seemed to work out OK in the end.
> 
> I am familiar with Victoria Stilwell, not That Brad person though (I'll YouTube)! Good dog training methods from Victoria. She is also a character!
> 
> CM is known and aired on TV for his techniques... Comparing to KK (precious post) and Snookie seems a bit weird as they aren't being aired for a craft or skill. I have used his techniques with separation anxiety and had some good success there too, so speaking from my own opinion. I don't think you can say his techniques "don't work"... Too black and white. *They get results, but it seems most people posting don't like the way in which they achieve those results? *
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your time all!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


 

That's all it comes down to. No different than peoples ideas on parenting our humans also.


----------



## tippykayak

o0Shaz0o said:


> They get results, but it seems most people posting don't like the way in which they achieve those results?


I can't speak for everyone else, but my problem with many CM techniques is that it _looks like_ he gets results on the show because he controls some of the problem behavior, but in the long run, he may be making things worse, which you simply don't see on the show.

Techniques that involve intimidating, kicking, and poking dogs can sometimes address the surface behavior (by, for example, getting a dog to stop growling at the food bowl) but might lead to more severe behaviors later (like biting a child over a rawhide) once the show's over.

So it's not really that I don't like the method so much as I have concerns about the long term effects of the method.

There's also the issue of imitation. If you imitate CM's methods, there's every chance of creating a neurotic, dangerous dog, especially if you accidentally overdo it. If you imitate Stilwell's methods, that's much less likely, because those methods don't rely on intimidating the dog or hitting him. Mess up her methods, and you make little or no progress, but you're unlikely to worsen aggression or fearful behavior.


----------



## Pointgold

o0Shaz0o said:


> Just wanted to address this post, then I will call it a day on this thread. I have learnt new things from hearing different opinions. It got a little ugly there for a while... But hey, seemed to work out OK in the end.
> 
> I am familiar with Victoria Stilwell, not That Brad person though (I'll YouTube)! Good dog training methods from Victoria. She is also a character!
> 
> CM is known and aired on TV for his techniques... Comparing to KK (precious post) and Snookie seems a bit weird as they aren't being aired for a craft or skill. I have used his techniques with separation anxiety and had some good success there too, so speaking from my own opinion. I don't think you can say his techniques "don't work"... Too black and white. They get results, but it seems most people posting don't like the way in which they achieve those results?
> 
> Anyway, thanks for your time all!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PG Free


I'm just not a "the end justifies the means" sorta gal...


----------



## OutWest

Hi all. This has really been an interesting thread. I came across this article by a blogger on Dog Star Daily on this very debate, so I thought I'd share it. Our group of dog lovers is not the only one that is thinking this through. Be sure to read the comments also.

The Dog Blog | Dog Star Daily


----------



## Ljilly28

It was an interesting choice as a last episode, and has every dog list and forum buzzing, for sure.


----------



## jackie_hubert

I will spare you my own personal thoughts on this topic, in part because this new article says it much better than I could hope to.

The article that is making headlines all through the animal welfare world right now and was spurred on by the Holly event: http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whispering-the-21st-century?fb_action_ids=10151188398419655&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210151188398419655%22%3A204141166385251%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210151188398419655%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map


----------



## OutWest

jackie_hubert said:


> I will spare you my own personal thoughts on this topic, in part because this new article says it much better than I could hope to.
> 
> The article that is making headlines all through the animal welfare world right now and was spurred on by the Holly event: http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-whispering-the-21st-century?fb_action_ids=10151188398419655&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%2210151188398419655%22%3A204141166385251%7D&action_type_map=%7B%2210151188398419655%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map


Just read the whole article. Really interesting and worthwhile. Especially in light of the article someone else just posted about the success of other trainings in eliminating resource guarding.


----------



## rubychan

Hi all.
I'm no expert in dog behaviour but I believe there's no one-size-fits-all solution for every problem. One thing I agree with CM is that the owner is really really a big portion of the equation. 
So in deciding which solution to take, the key is the communication between the dog and the owner. And a communication can occur when there's trust. Trust will occur when the dog feels secure with you, his needs are met (it's not just love). Then the owner can understand what's the dog's problem, what he needs and what he fears, whether he respects you. Then you decide a balance mix of positive & a simple "hey!/no!" as the negative protest. 
A positive reinforcement is suitable for unconfident, fearful, eager to please cases.
A protest in which we communicate to the dog, "I don't approve of this behavior" is also needed for unsocialized dogs, or territorial dogs with no history of abuse.
Some dogs have legitimate issues and some are just contesting your authority in which you must stand your ground.
You gotta have balance. Too much authority and the dog will fear and resent you. Too much love and no boundary and the dog walks all over you.


----------

