# Running Blinds



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

There has been a lot of great blind running information lately in a variety of threads.This is an attempt have one place to talk about blinds, so we can find it later.

Here are a few threads that I though were interesting. You may have to look though some of them to get to the blind info.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-hunt-field/86113-slaters-education.html

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-hunt-field/107242-positive-training-field.html

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...-training-plans-week-january-8-14-2012-a.html


So here is where I think we are when it comes to running blinds.
We have worked though T,TT, and pattern blinds. We run memory blinds and lining drills every week, and always will for maintenance.
We are coming along on communication for initial line. She still occasionally pops at the line. I noticed that it is usually when the blind is not a flat run. If the land drops away or if there is a sharp hill. We talk a lot about the dog seeing the picture. I think Winter pops when she looks out and the land drops away or there is a hill, then she doesn't understand the picture and she pops.

Casting is going well. We are figuring out 20 degree vs 40 degree cast, etc, still working on this but getting better. Winter almost always turns the correct way with a cast. We have run long featureless cold blinds, but now have pulled them back in short and adding factors to work on suction.

Suction. I'm learning how to read and handle suction. I have been taught to not say "back" on every cast and to use my voice when I need to add emphasis. I also, for emphasisis, use a couple of steps to the side before the cast, or what almost always works for us, whistle sit, pauses and have her watch me for 7-10 seconds and then cast. When casting out of suction I often get scallop and/or an over correction. I still use attrition for correction. 

Winter has been described as a soft, smart dog, with a huge prey drive, by my Pro. I think she worries when she doesn't get it right. The Pro has had me be very careful with any pressure on her. I hear all the time, "do not get in any big fights, if it is going wrong stop and call me." I think that the reason for the caution is probably related to the fact that I have never trained a dog before, as much as the fact that she is soft.
Also, I'm often asked when we are working though blind concepts how her attitude/momentum is in running marks. I'm told that if she is not handling the the pressure of learning blinds that it will show up in her marks.
Not in her marking ability, which might and did suffer, but in her desire and momentum to run them. Winter's momentum in marks has never wavered.

What's everyone else up to?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Nice thread. Will type more later. Sounds like you have a great pro to work with!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Great post, thanks for starting this thread!
I know you and I have talked before and our pros have similar training styles and philosophies. I don't give verbal cues on casts at all, except if I *really* need to get his attention or stress the cast. For example, if he's drawn in by suction and I know it's going to be hard to get him past it, I will give a verbal "BACK" along with the cast. Otherwise it's his job to watch me and know what I want. 
I'm not allowed to step to the side, though. My feet have to stay in place. If I need to make a big impression, I'm supposed to use a "pumping" motion with my arm rather than just one arm motion, if that made any sense. It makes it easier for him to see it when he's far away and in heavy cover. Dan explained why I'm not supposed to move to the side, but I forget what he said. Might have had to do with the fact that 99% of my casts are supposed to be literal angle backs??? I honestly don't recall.
Ok, where we're at....we are trying to get ready to run Senior Hunter the end of March, which is iffy at best since winter has finally arrived here and we are buried in snow and not training at all. 
So we are running mixed marks and blinds, a few doubles now and then. The blinds are long true cold blinds with lots of suction, like massive cover changes, crossing mowed roads, thru a ditch, around a big bush, and so on. His initial lines have been great, but of course he does give in to the suction quite often. The biggest improvement I've seen in Tito is he now accepts the CONCEPT of the blind, and when he gives in to the suction, sits and waits to be told where to head next rather than trying to head off on his own agenda. That's HUGE for him. Dan says he is running HRC finished level blinds now. We both feel he's *probably* ready to run SH on land. The problem for us is going to be the water. It got too cold here for us to do any water quite a long time ago, so we haven't run any water blinds in a couple of months and when we did they were very, very simple ones. We are just hoping that his land blinds have gotten so good that it will transfer over to water, since we will be lucky to get in the water once or twice before the March tests.
Tito's momentum on marks never suffered from us concentrating on blinds, either. Nor did his marking....but his concept of running multiple marks was completely, totally shot to heck. Gone. It seems he's now figuring it out again. As I said before, Dan says what happened is he is unclear as to why he's being sent out the second time and it's up to me to communicate to him that it's another mark and it's okay to go hunt it up.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well I have only just started occasionally seeing a pro and just recently started running cold blinds. I am still learning how best to handle and I remember distinctly asking Pete several times why sometimes he wants me to use verbal casts, sometimes he doesn't, and sometimes I take a few steps when walking. Of course he coyly said that he just knows from all of his experience when to do it. Well, I just don't know!

Right now I am running long blinds and running after her so that when I do have to stop and cast her she is not that far from me. I am going to Pete's on Monday so I will ask him how and when to progress from there. I do remember on our first cold blind he had me use collar pressure a few times. It concerned me so I pulled him aside and asked him about it...because others have told me when they are new to blinds not to use collar pressure or you risk ruining confidence. His response was 'this dog doesn't need confidence', well ok. The only pressure I have used is for sits or occasionally a back*nick*back if she miscasts several times. I have been using attrition as well when she veers off a little.

So far I have not had any major problems...except two freezes one of which was my fault. The one that was my fault I had whistle sat her almost immediately after she went a wrong direction from my cast. At this stage I should've let her roll and she definitely hesitated because she didn't want to be wrong. And I think she went the wrong direction because she had just rolled over the blind and missed it...so she probably didn't believe that it was there. Or not. I am not sure about the other freeze but I was able to break her out of it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> The blinds are long true cold blinds with lots of suction, like massive cover changes, crossing mowed roads, thru a ditch, around a big bush, and so on. His initial lines have been great, but of course he does give in to the suction quite often.


Hi Barb, I would argue you are handling through FACTORS not suction.
There are three elements contribute to handling on a blind, that deviate a dog from running a true straight line to the blind:

#1 FACTORS are elements in the dog's field of vision that prevent a dog from running a straight line. All of the items you mentioned: terrain, cover, wind, etc, are factors. Suction and flare are also specific kind of factors. 
#2 SUCTION draws a dog TO something, away from the correct line to the blind blind. Obvious examples of suction are poison birds, old falls, decoys, old blinds, shoreline, holding blinds, trash in the field that looks like bumpers, scent areas, etc. They are the little devil on the dog's shoulder saying "Come to me, I have a bird, I swear!"
#3 FLARE push a dog AWAY from the correct line to the blind. Examples are shore/water/cover that the dog avoids, anything the dog is wary of such as holding blinds or decoys, or if the dog received a correction and is avoiding the area.

I would encourage you to run blinds WITH your marks as your primary factor will be suction from the old falls and holding blinds. Are you running a lot of marks and blinds together?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

When do you guys introduce marks with blinds and how do you do it? That's something I need to go over with Pete. Scout has done marks with pattern blinds before with no issue but isn't ready to do them with cold yet (I think--I was told not to yet now that we have practiced I will ask and see when we can intro them).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hey Anney, thanks for the awesome definitions!! I'm not so good on calling things the right thing. 
We have mostly factors, but we also have suction such as running next to a pond, lots of decoys, etc. A big one for him has been clumps of hay or something in the field that look like a bird, and heavy cover nearby because he thinks birds are found in heavy cover. I can't think of any flares we've encountered, yet. This cracks me up! *They are the little devil on the dog's shoulder saying "Come to me, I have a bird, I swear!"*
We just started putting marks and blinds back together, due to the confusion he was having on multiples. Dan had me do them separate for a few weeks, concentrating on the cues I was giving him to let him know which to expect. Apparently a lot of his confusion was my fault. But now, yes, we are running them together. When we mix blinds and marks it's things like a double followed by a blind, then a single followed by a blind, etc. We are not putting a blind in the middle of a double. 



K9-Design said:


> Hi Barb, I would argue you are handling through FACTORS not suction.
> There are three elements contribute to handling on a blind, that deviate a dog from running a true straight line to the blind:
> 
> #1 FACTORS are elements in the dog's field of vision that prevent a dog from running a straight line. All of the items you mentioned: terrain, cover, wind, etc, are factors. Suction and flare are also specific kind of factors.
> ...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> When do you guys introduce marks with blinds and how do you do it? That's something I need to go over with Pete. Scout has done marks with pattern blinds before with no issue but isn't ready to do them with cold yet (I think--I was told not to yet now that we have practiced I will ask and see when we can intro them).


You should first run Blind Drills which will be very similar to your PBs w/ Diversions but in a more controlled setting. 

Then you just have to start putting them together. Something that might be a nice introduction would be to set out 2-3 blinds, and run them. Then have a thrower go out into the field and throw a single, pick up the mark, then re-run one of the blinds. Repeat single + blind for all of the blinds. Be aware of the thrower's relationship to both blinds. Keep them well apart at first. 
When you start putting it together with real marking setups (doubles, triples, singles off multiple guns), keep your blinds well apart from the marks at first, and run the blinds first. Run the marks then run the blinds again. Then start running the blinds only once at the end, but remember to keep them well apart. It's a gradual thing.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Hey Anney, thanks for the awesome definitions!! I'm not so good on calling things the right thing.
> We have mostly factors, but we also have suction such as running next to a pond, lots of decoys, etc. A big one for him has been clumps of hay or something in the field that look like a bird, and heavy cover nearby because he thinks birds are found in heavy cover. I can't think of any flares we've encountered, yet. This cracks me up! *They are the little devil on the dog's shoulder saying "Come to me, I have a bird, I swear!"*
> We just started putting marks and blinds back together, due to the confusion he was having on multiples. Dan had me do them separate for a few weeks, concentrating on the cues I was giving him to let him know which to expect. Apparently a lot of his confusion was my fault. But now, yes, we are running them together. When we mix blinds and marks it's things like a double followed by a blind, then a single followed by a blind, etc. We are not putting a blind in the middle of a double.


Good dealio. If you want to help yourself (and you can easily just do this in your field) go just put holding blinds or even folding chairs out in the field, and run your blinds around them. You'll be amazed at all the suction you get from those! 
If you haven't run into the dog being sucked back to an old fall or holding blind you're probably not running them close enough. Not to say this is bad but it could be a rude awakening at a test. I know my training partner ran a senior last year that had the land blind on the back side of the FLYER STATION (20 yards apart) and then SHOT A DRY SHOT when the dog was halfway out to the blind. It ate those poor senior dogs up. Kinda dumb but you can see that sort of stuff.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, take this with a pound of salt because I am as new to this as you are, but we didn't put them together until he was pretty solid on cold blinds with a decent amount of factors and suction (aren't you proud of me Anney, lol?). 
The first few were hand thrown marks, not far away, with a blind that was much farther away and at least 90 degrees off the blind, usually much more. Then we went to hand thrown marks farther away, and the blind closer. And so on.



GoldenSail said:


> When do you guys introduce marks with blinds and how do you do it? That's something I need to go over with Pete. Scout has done marks with pattern blinds before with no issue but isn't ready to do them with cold yet (I think--I was told not to yet now that we have practiced I will ask and see when we can intro them).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh lordy, I can't tell you how many times I've had this happen!!!!!!!!



K9-Design said:


> If you haven't run into the dog being sucked back to an old fall or holding blind you're probably not running them close enough. Not to say this is bad but it could be a rude awakening at a test.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It is so interesting (and confusing) how different trainers and methods approach things. I don't know how Pete will start putting them together but the first lesson I had with him we set-up a PB and he was having me at this early stage do marks with the PB, an over-the-arc mark, and at the end I did a double with the same PB up the center. Scout did it all fairly well...she was suctioned some to the marks but as long as I sat her fast enough she handled to the PB fine. The marks were really close to the line.

I can't wait until Monday.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Hi Barb, I would argue you are handling through FACTORS not suction.
> There are three elements contribute to handling on a blind, that deviate a dog from running a true straight line to the blind:
> 
> #1 FACTORS are elements in the dog's field of vision that prevent a dog from running a straight line. All of the items you mentioned: terrain, cover, wind, etc, are factors. Suction and flare are also specific kind of factors.
> ...


Excellent! I know I was using them interchangabily(is that a word). 
This is just the kind of discussion I hoped would happen, so informative and useful.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I do think a big part of it is that a good trainer does things differently depending on the individual dog's strengths and weaknesses. So what Dan does with Tito is not necessarily the same as what he does with a different dog.



GoldenSail said:


> It is so interesting (and confusing) how different trainers and methods approach things. I don't know how Pete will start putting them together but the first lesson I had with him we set-up a PB and he was having me at this early stage do marks with the PB, an over-the-arc mark, and at the end I did a double with the same PB up the center. Scout did it all fairly well...she was suctioned some to the marks but as long as I sat her fast enough she handled to the PB fine. The marks were really close to the line.
> 
> I can't wait until Monday.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I do think a big part of it is that a good trainer does things differently depending on the individual dog's strengths and weaknesses. So what Dan does with Tito is not necessarily the same as what he does with a different dog.


Yes I think it depends on the individual dog and also the style of the trainer. I still remember when my friend gave her soft lab an emphatic 'no' for making a mistake and was told if my dog had made the same mistake I probably would need to use a different correction. She's not the same dog and quite frankly is not that soft.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Nice thread. Will type more later. Sounds like you have a great pro to work with!


Thanks. He is really good about breaking things down that I don't get, and is very patience with my questions. I often have a written list.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito is not in the least bit soft, but he's pretty sensitive. According to a great article posted on another forum, "soft" is dogs who cannot take physical corrections, "sensitive" is dogs who can't take verbal corrections as their feelings get hurt. You could probably hit Tito over the head with a 2 x 4 and he wouldn't even blink, but if you raise your voice and yell at him he gets pretty upset.
So if Dan REALLY wants to make an impression on Tito, he runs out toward him and yells NO! GET YOUR BIRD!!! (or something like that). In general, collar corrections are for minor infractions, because they don't phase him at all, they just give him feedback that he's made a wrong choice. Yelling at him is reserved for really major problems.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Oh lordy, I can't tell you how many times I've had this happen!!!!!!!!


Okay good!! Well, not good, but, good you've had the experience!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> It is so interesting (and confusing) how different trainers and methods approach things. I don't know how Pete will start putting them together but the first lesson I had with him we set-up a PB and he was having me at this early stage do marks with the PB, an over-the-arc mark, and at the end I did a double with the same PB up the center. Scout did it all fairly well...she was suctioned some to the marks but as long as I sat her fast enough she handled to the PB fine. The marks were really close to the line.
> 
> I can't wait until Monday.


Really "pattern blinds with diversions" and "blind drills" can be very very similar to nearly identical, or completely different. I stuck with the Mike Lardy "rules" on these but I can see how you can blur the distinction and still get the same benefits from it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

um yeah, it's one of the reasons Dan laughs when I tell him I'm worried about Tito's memory. He says Tito has a fantastic memory. Yep, for where the old fall was :doh:



K9-Design said:


> Okay good!! Well, not good, but, good you've had the experience!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Great post, thanks for starting this thread!
> I know you and I have talked before and our pros have similar training styles and philosophies. I don't give verbal cues on casts at all, except if I *really* need to get his attention or stress the cast. For example, if he's drawn in by suction and I know it's going to be hard to get him past it, I will give a verbal "BACK" along with the cast. Otherwise it's his job to watch me and know what I want.
> 
> I'm not allowed to step to the side, though. My feet have to stay in place. If I need to make a big impression, I'm supposed to use a "pumping" motion with my arm rather than just one arm motion, if that made any sense. It makes it easier for him to see it when he's far away and in heavy cover. Dan explained why I'm not supposed to move to the side, but I forget what he said. Might have had to do with the fact that 99% of my casts are supposed to be literal angle backs??? I honestly don't recall.
> ...


It does sound like Dan and Andy are quite alike. 

I forgot that we do the arm pump thing too. I'm allowed to move feet. 
I do think the having her sit and wait for the cast is making the biggest impression right now.

Tito and you are definitely a step ahead of us in blinds. I think the using her nose lately is that she has just realized that there is something out there every time we run blinds. I believe the next step getting her realize that I know where it is and I'm directing her to it.
We will have to do a bunch of water blind work before we are ready Season/Senior. I hope this summer, but who knows.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito is not in the least bit soft, but he's pretty sensitive. According to a great article posted on another forum, "soft" is dogs who cannot take physical corrections, "sensitive" is dogs who can't take verbal corrections as their feelings get hurt. You could probably hit Tito over the head with a 2 x 4 and he wouldn't even blink, but if you raise your voice and yell at him he gets pretty upset.
> So if Dan REALLY wants to make an impression on Tito, he runs out toward him and yells NO! GET YOUR BIRD!!! (or something like that). In general, collar corrections are for minor infractions, because they don't phase him at all, they just give him feedback that he's made a wrong choice. Yelling at him is reserved for really major problems.


Yes, I should have said sensitive.
I do think she worries about getting it right. She is not like some dogs (read labs) that I have seen that will guess what is right. Winter will sit there and wait for me to make it clear. Does this make sense?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for the description soft vs. sensitive...Scout is not very soft or sensitive. 

Hollyk we need lots of water handling too. Our plan of action was to get confident land blinds and then do water since I am told it is easier to water handle if the dog already has an idea of what you want. I am hoping to do swimby this spring...Pete says Scout is a dog who has to do it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I know exactly what you mean, I see this HUGELY in Tito in obedience, and pretty much in agility. It's why he will once in a while take down a jump bar in agility, he waits for the "jump" command rather than guessing if he's supposed to jump it or not. 
Not so much in field, where he is CERTAIN he knows more than I do. Which he probably does!




hollyk said:


> Yes, I should have said sensitive.
> I do think she worries about getting it right. She is not like some dogs (read labs) that I have seen that will guess what is right. Winter will sit there and wait for me to make it clear. Does this make sense?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Thanks for the description soft vs. sensitive...Scout is not very soft or sensitive.
> 
> Hollyk we need lots of water handling too. Our plan of action was to get confident land blinds and then do water since I am told it is easier to water handle if the dog already has an idea of what you want. I am hoping to do swimby this spring...Pete says Scout is a dog who has to do it.


Finishing up Junior will be a breeze for Scout.
By the time we ran Junior at the end of last summer Winter had rudimentary handling in place. It did give me a a bit of confidence that if something crazy happened I had a shot at trying to handle.
I'm guessing you will be able to handle right to the mark.

We started water blinds last fall and the land was transferring to water nicely. But we stopped all water work when she had land blind meltdown. So waiting for spring here too.


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