# Thinking of switching from Iams to Fromm or TOTW



## estesbubba (Sep 13, 2011)

Peyton is 6 months old today and has been on Iams Proactive and doing fine. From this forum and other research it seems more natural foods are preferable. What are the pros and cons to switching her? We also have 2 11 year old cockers and I wonder if I should switch them too if I do change? It would be nice to have everyone on the same food. 

Any advice or suggestions are appreciated.


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## Bentley's Mom (May 19, 2011)

I would say if it isn't broke don't fix it. The best food for your dogs are the one they do well on. Sometimes trying to find another food they do well on is a very difficult endeavor.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I agree with Bentleys mom! If he is doing fine than what is the worry?
Both my pups have been on Iams since day one and never had a problem.


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

We use TOTW Lamb (Sierra Mt). I have Biewer Yorkies who really have a hard time with grains. For months we had Kye on Eukanuba and Coops breeder had him on Science Diet. We were buying 3 types of food. Not good for us. So slowly we changed the goldens to TOTW too. It is a good food and able to purchase it locally. I am hoping all our crew keep doing well with it. I like the grain free for my little ones as ear infections have left and itching is gone but another concern was keeping each dog eatting the right food. What a mess for us! Now we have no problem if one goes and eats out of anothers bowl.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I have fed both TOTW, and Fromm with great results!! I am currently feeding Fromm Salmon A' La Veg, since I am able to buy it from a didtributor.

I used to feed some other foods, and thought my old dog was doing well on them, but when I made the switch to a better quality food, there was a huge difference.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Stretchdrive said:


> I have fed both TOTW, and Fromm with great results!! I am currently feeding Fromm Salmon A' La Veg, since I am able to buy it from a didtributor.
> 
> *I used to feed some other foods, and thought my old dog was doing well on them, but when I made the switch to a better quality food, there was a huge difference.*


Just curious if a dog is having no problem and is doing well on their food what would be the "huge" difference by changing it?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I can understand wanting to have all dogs on the same food. I would want the same thing! I have fed TOTW since we brought our pup home from the breeder. I have nothing but rave reviews for it. I mostly feed the lamb formula but have tried all varieties.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Just curious if a dog is having no problem and is doing well on their food what would be the "huge" difference by changing it?


Better coat, eyes, energy, better muscle, less stool, feeding less, far less shedding ect. There is a difference, at one time I would not have believed it, but I have seen proof.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am in the category of if it's not broken, don't fix it. Mine eat Wellness because anecdotally there was a corn allergy in my Cookie's mom. Mine have good skin and ears, so I don't feel the need to change anything. However, my rescue beagle lived to be 17 years eating Purina most of her life. I do switch my goldens over to adult food at 4 months.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Stretchdrive said:


> Better coat, eyes, energy, better muscle, less stool, feeding less, far less shedding ect. There is a difference, at one time I would not have believed it, but I have seen proof.


 
Certain food will make them shed less if they have nothing medically wrong? That's a first Someone can make a mint with that one lol! 
I'm in the believer camp if it ain't broke don't try to fix......


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm in the you'll never know improvement if you don't look for it camp. I thought my early dogs were doing good on the foods they were on. Until I fed them something different and saw the improvement.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Certain food will make them shed less if they have nothing medically wrong? That's a first Someone can make a mint with that one lol!
> I'm in the believer camp if it ain't broke don't try to fix......


 


LOL! I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one! 

p.s. I also feed Raw


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I am in the category of if it's not broken, don't fix it. Mine eat Wellness because anecdotally there was a corn allergy in my Cookie's mom. Mine have good skin and ears, so I don't feel the need to change anything. *However, my rescue beagle lived to be 17 years eating Purina most of her life. *I do switch my goldens over to adult food at 4 months.


Cant' get any better than that! 17 years!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have tried numerous things to decrease shedding... Nothing has worked for me. Plus my intact females do a twice yearly coat blow. The only thing to stop that is hormonal therapy.


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## estesbubba (Sep 13, 2011)

I spoke with my vet and she said while she doesn't hate Iams some of the ingredients have little to be desired. She also said some foods are a little too fancy. I told her I was thinking of Fromm or TOTW and she said go for it with all the dogs, just start out with 10-20% and slowly increase it. 

A local store gave me some TOTW samples and the lady said that's what she feeds her dogs. Dogs just had some high prairie in their normal kibble and Peyton chowed hers. She has been hesitating and eating slow lately. 

I will say that the cockers have had ear infections, itching, and chew their paws occasionally throughout their lives. While no health problems it seems this could be from the ingredients in Iams. I'll keep an eye on them and see how they do on TOTW. 

Lady at the store says she frequently switches TOTW formulas to mix it up with her dogs.


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## estesbubba (Sep 13, 2011)

Forgot to add it does smell more wild!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I believe it all depends on how the dog can handle "any" brand of food. If there is no issue there is no harm. It might be just as harmful to switch the food when there is no issue with the existing. If you must switch.......do so slowly.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

It is interesting that most show breeders to whom coat and health are a must choose to stay away from what they call the "grocery store dog foods". Many also include Science Diet in that number. These people are far more knowledgeable than I am and explain their reasoning in detail from a biological content and health perspective. They also avoid all products with wheat and wheat gluten and many of the golden breeders I have talked to prefer grain free foods. My experience has been only in the volume of poop which seems to be lower with these non grocery store foods and the general health of my dog. I had several breeders tell me that you can't just measure the food impact on length of life but quality of life is also a criteria. There are several of the non grocery store foods which are on par with the cost of Science Diet which is a little over a dollar per pound where I live. Many suggested Taste of the Wild as a high quality alternative. My breeder actually uses Life's Abundance for her dogs but it is fifty percent more expensive than TOTW and I am not sure I can make a leap that far in terms of cost. My take is that the grocery store foods may appear to do a good job but likely do not achieve some of the little things in terms of coat health, volume of food digested and volume that is turned to waste, etc. Depending on your criteria there is likely no correct answer particularly if you are looking at a cost benefit analysis. It mainly comes down to what you can afford and finding the best food available in your price range. As in my case, I simply cannot tolerate the incremental expense of Life's Abundance even if there are advantages.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

I ran across this link which compare a vast numbe rof dog foods. Some here may find it useful.

Dog Food Reviews by Brand


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh I don't know......I would say eating a type of food for 17 odd years without any problems is a pretty good quality of life for a dog
Reviews are so overated and mostly not factual........look at your travel sites for instance lol! The dog is the true review IMHO.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Here is another video which although it is meant to sell Life's Abundance tells everyone a lot about the impact of preservatives and other contents of dog food.

Life's Abundance - Improving the Health of People, Pets & the Planet

BTW, I had an uncle who live to 104 and he drank and smoked for his entire life. The analogy you have used would say we should all drink and smoke. LOL!

Everyone is free to do as they wish. But listening to what scientists have to say does not hurt anyone.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> Here is another video which although it is meant to sell Life's Abundance tells everyone a lot about the impact of preservatives and other contents of dog food.
> 
> Life's Abundance - Improving the Health of People, Pets & the Planet
> 
> ...


No it doesn't But kudos to your uncle!


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> No it doesn't But kudos to your uncle!


I have been down this road with you before and am not going there again. I simply offered this as a resource for everyone. As I said, you like every one else are free to believe it or not and do with it what you like. 

YCCS!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> I have been down this road with you before and am not going there again. I simply offered this as a resource for everyone. As I said, *you like every one else are free to believe it or not and do with it what you like. *
> 
> YCCS!


Thus the reason for my post.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

estesbubba said:


> Peyton is 6 months old today and has been on Iams Proactive and doing fine. From this forum and other research it seems more natural foods are preferable. What are the pros and cons to switching her? We also have 2 11 year old cockers and I wonder if I should switch them too if I do change? It would be nice to have everyone on the same food.
> 
> Any advice or suggestions are appreciated.


The dog food link that I provided rated the Iams Puppy proactive at three stars out of five. Certainly not a bad rating particularly if your puppy is doing well. What you may want to do is compare the various foods available and see what seems to be the best and most cost effective food to switch to when your puppy transitions to adult food.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Calistar said:


> It is interesting that most show breeders to whom coat and health are a must choose to stay away from what they call the "grocery store dog foods". Many also include Science Diet in that number. These people are far more knowledgeable than I am and explain their reasoning in detail from a biological content and health perspective. They also avoid all products with wheat and wheat gluten and many of the golden breeders I have talked to prefer grain free foods. My experience has been only in the volume of poop which seems to be lower with these non grocery store foods and the general health of my dog. I had several breeders tell me that you can't just measure the food impact on length of life but quality of life is also a criteria. There are several of the non grocery store foods which are on par with the cost of Science Diet which is a little over a dollar per pound where I live. Many suggested Taste of the Wild as a high quality alternative. My breeder actually uses Life's Abundance for her dogs but it is fifty percent more expensive than TOTW and I am not sure I can make a leap that far in terms of cost. My take is that the grocery store foods may appear to do a good job but likely do not achieve some of the little things in terms of coat health, volume of food digested and volume that is turned to waste, etc. Depending on your criteria there is likely no correct answer particularly if you are looking at a cost benefit analysis. It mainly comes down to what you can afford and finding the best food available in your price range. As in my case, I simply cannot tolerate the incremental expense of Life's Abundance even if there are advantages.


Several of the breeders I have encountered both on this forum as well as my dog's breeder have chosen to continually feed "grocery store brands" for years. Flora's breeder insists on Eukanuba, and I have seen on this forum many breeders that use Purina Pro Plan or Eukanuba with positive results. I am sure they could afford a more boutique brand of food, but years' worth of positive results with the food they currently feed has proven to them that there's no point in fixing what ain't broke.

When Flora was a puppy I tried switching her from Eukanuba to four different boutique brands with majorly messy results. Only when I switched her to back to a "grocery store brand" did she stop having the liquid stools and get back on track. Don't make the mistakes I did, because they are gross! :

Feed what works for your dog, period. Some dogs do great on raw, others do great on Iams. My dog Carmella lived almost 15 years, and 8 of those years were on Iams.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

For the first time, I am 100 percent happy with a dog food. It is the brand new Solid Gold SunDancer Chicken. Show coats, finally!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

kdmarsh said:


> Several of the breeders I have encountered both on this forum as well as my dog's breeder have chosen to continually feed "grocery store brands" for years. Flora's breeder insists on Eukanuba, and I have seen on this forum many breeders that use Purina Pro Plan or Eukanuba with positive results. I am sure they could afford a more boutique brand of food, but years' worth of positive results with the food they currently feed has proven to them that there's no point in fixing what ain't broke.


I don't consider Pro Plan or Eukanuba to be grocery store brands. I know I can't buy them at any grocery store I shop at! When I think of grocery store brands I think Beneful, Dog Chow, Pedigree etc.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

The Review Site is just another source of information because none of us knows what we don't know. If a dog seems to be doing fine on a given food, it may likely be OK. But we have no way of knowing if it is cutting a few years off the dogs life no matter how long another dog may have lived eating it. The Review Site is definitely informative if you are looking for a dog food or looking to change. It is ofered simply for eeryones use and everyone is free to look at the data or ignore it.

However, it should be noted that the Reviewer felt ProPlan was below average. See the review below for reasons.

Purina Pro Plan Shredded Blend Chicken and Rice
Dry Dog Food
Estimated Dry Matter Nutrient Content

Ingredients: Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of vitamin E), whole grain corn, soy flour, corn bran, soybean meal, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, glycerin, salt, dried egg product, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, sulfur, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), zinc proteinate, manganese sulfate, niacin, manganese proteinate, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin B-12 supplement, copper proteinate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oill folic acid, vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), sodium selenite
Fiber (estimated dry matter content) = 3.4%

Red items when present indicate controversial ingredients

The first ingredient in this dog food lists chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost… reducing the meat content to just 20% of its original weight.

To reflect its lighter mass, this item should more accurately occupy a lower position on the list.

Which brings us to brewers rice… the second and (more likely) the dominant ingredient in this dog food.
Brewers rice represents the small grain fragments left over after milling whole rice.
This is an inexpensive cereal grain by-product and not considered a quality ingredient.
The third ingredient is wheat. Now, contrary to what you may have heard, wheat isn’t necessarily a bad ingredient.

On the other hand, although there’s no way to know for sure here, the wheat used in making many pet foods can be similar to the kind used to make feed for livestock.
And that can sometimes be problematic.

What’s more, wheat is commonly linked to canine food allergies1.

For these reasons, we rarely consider wheat a preferred component in any dog food.
The fourth ingredient is poultry by-product meal… a dry rendered product of slaughterhouse waste. It’s made from what’s left of slaughtered poultry after all the prime cuts have been removed.

In a nutshell, poultry by-products are those unsavory and inedible leftovers deemed “unfit for human consumption”.
This stuff can contain almost anything… feet, beaks, undeveloped eggs… you name it.
What’s more, this item doesn’t even specify the source animal (is it chicken, duck or pigeon?).

On the brighter side, by-product meals are meat concentrates and contain nearly 300% more protein than fresh poultry.

The fifth item is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate (the good stuff) washed out of it.
Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins low in many of the essential amino acids dogs need to sustain life.

This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein content reported in this dog food.

The sixth item is animal fat. Animal fat is a generic by-product of “rendering”… the same high-temperature process used to make meat meals.

Since there’s no mention of a specific animal, this stuff could come from almost anywhere… restaurant grease, slaughterhouse waste, diseased cattle… even euthanized pets.

Needless to say, generic animal fat is not a quality ingredient.

The next ingredient is corn. Corn is subject to the same problems and shortcomings as wheat (previously discussed). That’s why we don’t consider corn a quality addition either.

The eighth ingredient is soy flour… a high-protein by-product of soybean processing.
Soy protein has a low biological value compared to meat.

The ninth ingredient is corn bran. Corn bran is made from the tough outer layer of a corn kernel and is especially rich in dietary fiber.

The tenth ingredient is soybean meal. Soybean meal is actually a by-product. It’s what remains of soybeans after all the oil has been removed.

Soybean meal contains 48% protein… inferior plant-based protein. So, it has the ability to raise the reported protein content of any dog food product.
Fish meal is another high protein meat concentrate.

Unfortunately, this particular item is anonymous. The term “fish” does little to properly describe this ingredient. What species? What parts?

Fish meal is commonly made from the by-products of commercial fish operations.
What’s more, the controversial chemical ethoxyquin is frequently used as a preservative in fish meals.

But because it’s usually added to the raw fish before processing, the chemical does not have to be reported to consumers.

We find no public assurances from the company this product is ethoxyquin-free.
Without knowing more, and based upon this fish meal’s location on the list of ingredients, we would expect to find only a trace of ethoxyquin in this product.

Animal digest is a (generic) chemically decomposed concoction of unspecified body parts… from unspecified animals. Believe it or not, animal digest is usually sprayed onto the surface of a dry kibble to improve its taste.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items.

But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to have much of an effect on the overall rating of this product.

With two notable exceptions…
Garlic oil may be a controversial item. We say “may be” here because we are not certain of the oil’s chemical relationship to raw garlic itself.
In rare cases, garlic has been linked to Heinz body anemia in dogs.2

Most of the professional literature we surveyed did not provide any conclusive warnings regarding the use of garlic… especially in small amounts (as it is here).
Although we see no reason to be overly concerned, we do feel it is a mistake to include such controversial ingredients in any dog food product.

Unfortunately, this Pro Plan product also contains menadione… a controversial form of vitamin K linked to liver toxicity, allergies and the abnormal break-down of red blood cells.
On a more positive note…
This dog food appears to contain chelated minerals… minerals that have been chemically attached to protein. This makes them easier to absorb. Chelated minerals are usually found in better dog foods.

Purina Pro Plan Dry Dog Food
The Bottom Line

Judging by its ingredients alone, Purina Pro Plan appears to be a below-average kibble.
But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating.

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 30%, a fat level of 18% and an estimated carbohydrate content of 44%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 31% and an average fat level of 17%. Together, these figures suggest an overall carbohydrate content of 44% for the full product line.
Average protein. Average fat. And near-average carbohydrates… when compared to a typical dry dog food.

Yet when you consider the plant-based protein-boosting effect of the corn gluten meal, this is the profile of a kibble containing only a modest amount of meat.
What’s worse, it’s difficult to ignore the unusual abundance of Red Flag items.

Bottom line?
Purina Pro Plan is primarily a grain-based dry dog food using only a fair amount of chicken, beef or lamb as its main sources of animal protein… thus earning the brand two stars.

Not recommended.
Those looking for a better kibble from the same company may wish to check out our review of Purina Pro Plan Selects Dry Dog Food.

A Final Word

This review is designed to help you make a more informed decision when buying dog food. However, our rating system is not intended to suggest feeding a particular product will result in specific health benefits for your pet.

For a better understanding of how we analyzed this product, please be sure to read our article, “The Problem with Dog Food Reviews”

Remember, no dog food can possibly be appropriate for every life stage, lifestyle or health condition. So, choose wisely. And when in doubt consult a veterinarian for help.
Have an opinion about this dog food brand… or maybe the review itself? Please know… we welcome your comments.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

Holy wall of text batman.

What site is that from? I saw this thread as I'm doing research on food atm and checked this thread out. Kudos if you actually typed that out, that might be the longest post ever on this forum.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I'll bet you've stepped in it now!!! 



jagmanbrg said:


> Holy wall of text batman.
> 
> What site is that from? I saw this thread as I'm doing research on food atm and checked this thread out. Kudos if you actually typed that out, that might be the longest post ever on this forum.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Be sure to investigate these "ratings" sites. None I know of are actually staffed by veterinary nutritionists. One has a very grain free bent, one is run by a dentist (!), etc. Many top notch breeders have had generations of healthy, long lived dogs on ProPlan. It doesn't work for my crew but it can't be disputed that it does have a long track record which many of the newer foods don't. After years of going round and round with food, I'm definitely in the camp of use what works for your dog. Our Apache lived until almost 15 on Nutro. With our current crew, we have several foods we rotate through and that seems to work best for them. We also use green tripe and The Honest Kitchen.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Agreed. Penny was doing great on her Premium Edge. I thought Candadaie would be better so I switched her. 18 pounds gained in a year, 2 year's to get it off. She's back on Premium Edge and back to 65 pounds. It all a matter of what works best.



Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Be sure to investigate these "ratings" sites. None I know of are actually staffed by veterinary nutritionists. One has a very grain free bent, one is run by a dentist (!), etc. Many top notch breeders have had generations of healthy, long lived dogs on ProPlan. It doesn't work for my crew but it can't be disputed that it does have a long track record which many of the newer foods don't. After years of going round and round with food, I'm definitely in the camp of use what works for your dog. Our Apache lived until almost 15 on Nutro. With our current crew, we have several foods we rotate through and that seems to work best for them. We also use green tripe and The Honest Kitchen.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I have never been sold on the 'no-grain diets' unless a dog needs to be on one for a reason (or the owner chooses to feed that). My mom's two labs and our previous golden are/were fed Iams. The labs do great on it and Sadie's coat is slick and shiny. If only mom didn't feed them so much so we could get some weight off of them.

Beamer eats Proplan LBP; I get compliments on how soft and shiny his coat is all the time. He does great, so why switch to something I don't know how he would do on? He tolerates grains fine (the only thing he can't have is rawhides, which gives him nasty diarrhea). 

I'm not bashing grain free foods, it is just I sometimes feel they are overrated.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Be sure to investigate these "ratings" sites. None I know of are actually staffed by veterinary nutritionists. One has a very grain free bent, one is run by a dentist (!), etc. Many top notch breeders have had generations of healthy, long lived dogs on ProPlan.


Thank you! It amazes me how anyone can start a website and all of a sudden are a source of information on canine nutrition! 



Calistar said:


> It is interesting that most show breeders to whom coat and health are a must choose to stay away from what they call the "grocery store dog foods". Many also include Science Diet in that number. These people are far more knowledgeable than I am and explain their reasoning in detail from a biological content and health perspective. They also avoid all products with wheat and wheat gluten and many of the golden breeders I have talked to prefer grain free foods.


I completely disagree with this. I'm not sure how many breeders you have spoken to or know or what breeders you are referring to, but the breeders I know use what food works best for their dogs. Some feed grain free, but if there is any majority in the breeders I know, it's breeders who feed ProPlan (not the Shredded version, however). We, FWIW, feed a grain free food (Acana) and our puppy is currently on ProPlan LBP because it's what she was fed at her breeder's house. I'm just not one to criticize other peoples' food choices. People make the choice that works for them and their dogs. There are plenty of good options for food and any one food is not going to work for every dog or owner.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I completely disagree with this. I'm not sure how many breeders you have spoken to or know, but the breeders I know use what food works best for their dogs. Some feed grain free, but if there is any majority in the breeders I know, it's breeders who feed ProPlan (not the Shredded version, however). We, FWIW, feed a grain free food (Acana) and our puppy is currently on ProPlan LBP because it's what she was fed at her breeder's house. I'm just not one to criticize other peoples' food choices. People make the choice that works for them and their dogs.


 

Remember the uproar when they introduced the shredded blends a few years ago? So many breeders protested that they brought back the regular foods. FWIW, the shredded parts of that food are soy, a common allergen.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I agree, that I don't like those shredded blends when I switch to adult food... It really isn't necessary.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just tossing a comment in here... sometimes switching to a different kibble can do more damage than good. It can mess up your dog's digestive system for one. So I probably wouldn't do it unless you have a very good reason to switch.

I am one of those that likes review sites, but mainly because I like to understand exactly why X food is said to be better than Y food. I don't really understand why tomato pomace or garlic is bad, for example. But I definitely have taken caution when it comes to something like BHT or menadione. Maybe all that goes out the window when I pick up dog treats for my guy (loaded with preservatives and junk), but for my guy's main source of food I like to be careful where I can. 

And that's without really buying into the hype about grains or whatnot. :wave:


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Just to be clear, I am not criticizing anyone's choice of food. However, not everyone is necessarily an expert and I simply provided a resource that might prove helpful. I in no way endorsed it. But if someone is looking for a dog food or to change dog food this might help. There are those who say they disagree with the grain free diets. That is fine but it is no reason to disparage or ignore the work of those that hold a differing opinion. I do know that the breeders that I talked to with respect to a golden puppy were all in favor of grain free diets and preferred food that used limited amounts of preservatives. Simply knowing a dog who lived a long life on a given food is no measure of the food's healthiness because there is no way to know how long the dog may have lived on another food. And when I bred and showed Dobies, no breeder that I know that had healthy dogs used grocery store food. That said, if that is what you choose, that is your choice and is in no way reflective of you as a human being. But it also says that there are other points of view that deserve an equal level of consideration. In closing I would say that most of the vets I have ever met were not completely well versed on dog nutrition and as such were not the best sources as far as what to feed a dog. But once again that is just my opinion and I really don't care who uses what resources for selecting a food for their dog.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Kate

You are so right. I know our Dobies have always reacted poorly to switching from any Food A to a Food B. We have decided to start our golden puppy off on TOTW. But forseeing a day in six months when the puppy will be on regular food, we would prefer not to have a different food for each dog. But as we have begun to switch our last remaining Dobie over, we have slowly been introducing TOTW into her existing kibble to minimize the reaction of her digestive system. We also are using a fish based product in hopes that it will be easier on her system than beef or poultry based TOTW products.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> For the first time, I am 100 percent happy with a dog food. It is the brand new Solid Gold SunDancer Chicken. Show coats, finally!


If you will note, your choice was highly rated by the reviewer on the link I provided (4.5/5 stars). Glad to see your results confirmed his opinion.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think most are singing off the same page. Do what's best for your pet. Personally, i am very careful about preservatives and wanting a meat based diet. Our Cody does best with some grains, the goldens most of the time can go either way. We do have several foods we cycle through just to get a variety of nutrients. (Fromm, Wellness Core, Annamaet, timberwolf)


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Calistar said:


> If you will note, your choice was highly rated by the reviewer on the link I provided (4.5/5 stars). Glad to see your results confirmed his opinion.


Just be careful with believing everything any website says. The creator of that site is, quite literally, an oral surgeon...for humans. So his opinion on dog food means just as much as mine does (as an attorney). Anyone can create some sort of criteria and judge all dog foods based on that criteria....it doesn't mean that their opinion means anything. While information is always a good thing, I certainly would not base my food choices on an oral surgeon's opinion.


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## Solas Goldens (Nov 10, 2007)

I think I have done more research on dog food than I ever did on my kids food.LOL! I have Jake on taste of the wild salmon. It is expensive, but he is highly allergic to many ingredients as well as having environmental allergies. Hailey,Bella and Finn are on Diamond Naturals, it is a decent food with no Corn,soy,or wheat.The Jack Russell mix we just saved is on puppy pedigree, and is fine, he seems to tolerate it well. I thought of changing the puppy's food, but frankly it is a releif to have a dog that doesn't need a special diet. The Taste of the Wild food id 50.00 for 30lbs, and the Diamond brand is 35.00 for 40lbs, the Pedigree Puppy is 15.00 for a 20lbs.I use roughly 180.00 lbs of food a month. I have tried to feed food that is meeting the needs of the dogs, and not breaking my budget.This is working for now, and I'm happy.So I agree with if it isn't broken leave it alone.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> Just to be clear, I am not criticizing anyone's choice of food. However, not everyone is necessarily an expert and I simply provided a resource that might prove helpful. I in no way endorsed it. But if someone is looking for a dog food or to change dog food this might help. There are those who say they disagree with the grain free diets. That is fine but it is no reason to disparage or ignore the work of those that hold a differing opinion. I do know that the breeders that I talked to with respect to a golden puppy were all in favor of grain free diets and preferred food that used limited amounts of preservatives. Simply knowing a dog who lived a long life on a given food is no measure of the food's healthiness because *there is no way to know how long the dog may have lived on another food.* And when I bred and showed Dobies, no breeder that I know that had healthy dogs used grocery store food. That said, if that is what you choose, that is your choice and is in no way reflective of you as a human being. But it also says that there are other points of view that deserve an equal level of consideration. In closing I would say that most of the vets I have ever met were not completely well versed on dog nutrition and as such were not the best sources as far as what to feed a dog. But once again that is just my opinion and I really don't care who uses what resources for selecting a food for their dog.


Correct. And that is the reason most of us don't change what is not broken. To get a long life out of a golden is a treasure. And a dog has to be pretty healthy to live a long life.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Just be careful with believing everything any website says. The creator of that site is, quite literally, an oral surgeon...for humans. So his opinion on dog food means just as much as mine does (as an attorney). Anyone can create some sort of criteria and judge all dog foods based on that criteria....it doesn't mean that their opinion means anything. While information is always a good thing, I certainly would not base my food choices on an oral surgeon's opinion.


I am not sure an individual's primary occupation is sufficient grounds to disqualify his or her expertise in another area. Just because the man or woman is an oral surgeon we have no proof that he or she has no expertise in the field of canine nutrition. It may be a hobby that he or she is passionate about. Maybe he or she felt there was a lack of information, and studied up on it, and wanted to make it easier for others to find. It does make one wonder why anyone would have gone to so much trouble if they had no interest or expertise. 

So whether your opinion as an attorney is as meaningful as his would depend on what additional research you may or may not have done. I for one would not dismiss what you think simply because you are an attorney. One analogy is that judges in the conformation field often have jobs that have nothing to do with dogs. But as with any resource, rather than simply ignore it, it would help to do more research and see if you can confirm it. I bet you do that as an attorney all the time. Just look at this resource as the first step. It is interesting to me that of all the breeders I have contacted in selecting a golden puppy, the foods they recommended were highly recommended by the study I referenced. Likewise other foods they suggested I avoid were rated much lower. If one is looking for information to make a decision, they cannot ignore every resource simply because someone says something might be wrong with it as opposed to pointing out exactly what is wrong with it.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Correct. And that is the reason most of us don't change what is not broken. To get a long life out of a golden is a treasure. And a dog has to be pretty healthy to live a long life.


You missed both of my points. My first point was who is to say the dog would not have lived even longer with another food. So length of life cannot be considered as a measurement of a food's quality.

The other point was the one I made in my PM to you. I would politely ask that you respect that point.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Solas Goldens said:


> I think I have done more research on dog food than I ever did on my kids food.LOL! I have Jake on taste of the wild salmon. It is expensive, but he is highly allergic to many ingredients as well as having environmental allergies. Hailey,Bella and Finn are on Diamond Naturals, it is a decent food with no Corn,soy,or wheat.The Jack Russell mix we just saved is on puppy pedigree, and is fine, he seems to tolerate it well. I thought of changing the puppy's food, but frankly it is a releif to have a dog that doesn't need a special diet. The Taste of the Wild food id 50.00 for 30lbs, and the Diamond brand is 35.00 for 40lbs, the Pedigree Puppy is 15.00 for a 20lbs.I use roughly 180.00 lbs of food a month. I have tried to feed food that is meeting the needs of the dogs, and not breaking my budget.This is working for now, and I'm happy.So I agree with if it isn't broken leave it alone.


Wow. TOTW is 15-20% cheaper here in LV that what you are paying. 

While I respect what you say, particularly the financial reality of it that most of us must face, sometimes we really have no external sign that something "is broke" until we are informed that our dog has some terrible disease that is costly to get rid of, control, or in the worst case lose our beloved animal over. These diseases are sometimes a result of the diet we feed them and the contents or preservatives used. We find that we never try to justify using a dog food solely on the cost. We decide how much we can spend on the food and then find the best food we can afford. But I would never demean others beliefs that a given food is better without scientific evidence to the contrary. While everyone is entitled to opinions, trying to discount a food choice based on nothing but opinion is really meritless and leads to nothing but an unsolvable disagreement


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Calistar said:


> I am not sure an individual's primary occupation is sufficient grounds to disqualify his or her expertise in another area. Just because the man or woman is an oral surgeon we have no proof that he or she has no expertise in the field of canine nutrition. It may be a hobby that he or she is passionate about. Maybe he or she felt there was a lack of information, and studied up on it, and wanted to make it easier for others to find. It does make one wonder why anyone would have gone to so much trouble if they had no interest or expertise.
> 
> So whether your opinion as an attorney is as meaningful as his would depend on what additional research you may or may not have done. I for one would not dismiss what you think simply because you are an attorney. One analogy is that judges in the conformation field often have jobs that have nothing to do with dogs. But as with any resource, rather than simply ignore it, it would help to do more research and see if you can confirm it. I bet you do that as an attorney all the time. Just look at this resource as the first step. It is interesting to me that of all the breeders I have contacted in selecting a golden puppy, the foods they recommended were highly recommended by the study I referenced. Likewise other foods they suggested I avoid were rated much lower. If one is looking for information to make a decision, they cannot ignore every resource simply because someone says something might be wrong with it as opposed to pointing out exactly what is wrong with it.


I actually do think that one's primary occupation is important if one is purporting to be an expert on a subject. Had the creator of the website studied canine nutrition in some form or another I imagine it would be touted on his site. His references are listed on his site...and none include any education on canine nutrition or nutrition in general....which makes the site completely his opinion. Conformation judges have to meet fairly stringent criteria to become judges...including extensive experience in the breed they are becoming licensed to judge. That is completely different from the subject at hand. 

I could create a website claiming my expertise on wine and rating various wines, but that doesn't mean I know anything about the subject. My point was not that site is worthless, it's just that the opinion of any person should be taken with a grain of salt. And just because the website likes or doesn't like a food doesn't make it a good or bad food. It's just the opinion of the creator of the site.


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## Bella's Mama (Jun 12, 2011)

Food for thought (to the OP): Bella was doing fine on Puppy Chow when we first got her. We switched her to a premium food and she started having bad gas and lots of burping. About a million foods later, she still has the awful gas and burping. We're back on drug store food, Iams, and she is doing better on this food than any of the fancy foods. She still has gas, but it has lessened. I don't know what's next to get rid of the gas, but like I said, food for thought.

I must second that if your dog is doing well on her (his?) food now to not change it. I regret changing Bella's food.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

First of all I am sorry to hear about the problems Bella and your family experienced. There are certain breeds as well as certain individual dogs within a breed that do have sensitive stomachs. We appreciate that because as a breed Dobies had notoriously sensitive stomachs. Any changes in their diet had to made gradually much as we a7 re currently doing with our Dobie as we transition her over to TOTW. However, the fact that your Bella does fine on Puppy Chow does not mean that some of its ingredients may not have an effect on her long term health or life. If one studies the ingredients that are well documented to create long term health problems and even shorten life spans (preservatives being among the most notable), then it stands to reason we would want to try to buy a food that does not contain such ingredients. In your case, you tried the best you could to try to find other foods only to find Bella could not tolerate them. If I were you I would be able to look myself in the mirror and know that I had done my best to find the best food she could tolerate. However, if you had not done what you did, you would not know that and would likely question if the food had an impact on her long term health and life span. I applaud people like you who do what you did even though it was hard on you. IMHO your actions say a lot positive about your long term concern about your puppy's health. Glad you and everyone are back to normal.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

goldenjack puppy

I find your thoughts interesting so i am pursuing them to try to better understand what you are saying. I am not clear if you are sure that the website developer has no other experience with respect to canine nutrition. Such experience can come in several forms rather than a degree or a job in the field. Also sometimes it is not clear if a website developer has acted alone or in tandem with others. If you have established for certain that none of these is true, then I can agree with your premise. But in the absence of such knowledge surely you agree that it is possible for someone to have experience in other fields other than their work field or collaborative access to such knowledge. The reason I am reluctant to dismiss the developer on the simple premise that he is not employed as a canine nutritionist is that it took a massive amount of work to build such a comprehensive website. Given the man's type of work, it is likely that he is aware of statistical and scientific study methods and know such work would be questioned without a sufficient methodology. So why would a knowledgeable person go to so much trouble if he felt that his work could easily be rejected? Again, in turning to your legal background, it seems contrary to me to dismiss someone's opinion without any clear evidence that he has no other background or access to knowledge to make his opinions potentially valid. So we agree that if he doesn't have any real background what you say is credible. My only question is what proof do you have that he does not have any nutritional knowledge or access to such knowledge through collaborative efforts with others? Without such evidence, your hypothesis seems flawed IMHO. Please understand I am simply trying to probe your thinking more and not just arguing for the sake of arguing.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Here is a site which I find helpful. The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare? She always has the latest in recalls with FDA links attached. But also there is alot of info on how to analyze a food..... what to look for, what to avoid, definitions etc. There is also a good book our by Dr. Marion Nestle that is a good hard look at the dog food industry. 

Dr Nestle's books:

Feed Your Pet Right

Pet Food Politics

Here is a little bio on her: http://www.foodpolitics.com/about/


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't have a hypothesis. I came across that website some time ago and read the creator's "qualifications " for being an expert on dog food. It's on the site. It appears he is interested in dog food and came up with criteria for rating them, as I said. My point is that I could do the same thing (i.e. come up with criteria and rate all wines, dog food, cereal, etc in accordance with that criteria) but that doesn't make my opinion valuable to the general population.

Calistar, you and I just appear to operate differently in that respect. You seem to find information and believe it unless you can certainly prove it wrong. I don't trust websites (or any information I come across) blindly, particularly when it comes to the health and well being of my dogs.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Calistar, you and I just appear to operate differently in that respect. You seem to find information and believe it unless you can certainly prove it wrong. I don't trust websites (or any information I come across) blindly, particularly when it comes to the health and well being of my dogs.


Not necessarily true. I do not accept it blindly. I seek to find corroborating information or contrary information. I just don't simply dismiss it because the title on someone's business card doesn't seem to fit. I have a friend who is a dentist. but he is also the owner of a race car and a top notch mechanic. but you would not know that from his business card. So we will just have to agree to disagree. But most people I know are not so one dimensional as to have expertise in a single area. Your experience may be different. Interestingly, i have found a lot of corroborating information on other web sites to support his evaluation of both the lower end foods and the better foods. I certainly would not use his site to try to prove that his four star rating was any better than his five star rating. The other thing I find interesting is that even if you don't agree with his rating system he provides a lot of information on the ingredients in each food and the potential problems or benefits to help others assess the food. As such, while it may not be the end all of information, I think it offers far more than you are willing to admit simply because of his primary occupation. As a lawyer , I would think that you would see the downside of people thinking less of you because of your occupation! LOL!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

My job doesn't have anything to do with it. I was just pointing out that my educational background (like an oral surgeon's) doesn't qualify me to evaluate dog food. I could be anything, a mechanic, a furniture builder, a stockbroker....it doesn't make me qualified to evaluate dog food. 

I think it's safe to assume that if the creator of the site had additional qualifications, he would post them on his site since he discusses his primary occupation and his reason for starting the site. He doesn't state any additional qualifications, so my understanding is that he doesn't have any additional qualifications. 

And, AGAIN, I never said it was a worthless site. I simply said to be careful and take it with a grain of salt.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I have to chuckle a little. My dad was a top-notch mechanic but you wouldn't want him pulling your teeth, although he'd give it try if you asked. lol

The beauty...and pitfall... of the internet is that anybody can say anything, start any website, claim anything. Some people will find value in that and some won't. Some will consider it among others things and some won't. There is no defining answer here. Goldenjackpuppy, if I may speak for her, isn't trying to make one.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> You missed both of my points. My first point was who is to say the dog *would not have lived* even longer with another food. So length of life cannot be considered as a measurement of a food's quality.
> 
> The other point was the one I made in my PM to you. I would politely ask that you respect that point.


I didn't miss your point at all. Who is to say a dog *would live longer* on other foods than the one they have been on all their life? It goes both ways. But it is fact that if a golden lives to be 14 or 15 they got there because of their health. And I never said length of life is a measurement of food quality. I said if a dog lives that long they got there because of good health period.

As far as your PM.....this is a public message board and I have the right just as anyone else to post my opinion as long as I follow the boards rules.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think the best any of us can do is research and read and know your sources. And make choices and learn from them. I find Dr. Nestle's books very enlightening since she is such an expert in the food industry and how that funnels down to the dog food market. Pretty scary really.... she points out the lack of quality control concerning any animal feed. And how nutritionally dogs can do quite well with the left overs from the human food market. The problem being that there's little control over what that entails or how it's handled.

Bottom line from what I've found after years of being really interested in the food my dogs ingest ( due to Cody's AIHA) is that it's a moving target. There are very few foods that stay static year after year after year. They all want the "new and improved" product to jack up sales. New and improved could very well be new and disastrous for any given pup.

Another thought, beyond that ingredient listing and nutritional analysis, just as important is where their products are sourced from ( think 2007 melamine disaster), who makes their products and their track record. What sort of rating (EU, APHIS, etc) do the manufacturers have? Lots of food for thought that takes more research than a ratings site can give.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I was just pointing out that my educational background (like an oral surgeon's) doesn't qualify me to evaluate dog food. I could be anything, a mechanic, a furniture builder, a stockbroker....it doesn't make me qualified to evaluate dog food.


If you or other members here on GRF put together a concise, organized, easy to navigate and comprehend, and unbiased website where I can quickly look up any food and quickly see the +/- in the ingredients lists based on information likely derived from websites like the Dog Food Project, etc... 

I would not be getting hyped up about your personal history. Unless you are using your own opinions and ideas on healthy food to review and rate foods. 

And definitely, the fact that guy is a dentist would be an issue for me if he were making statements that could not be backed up elsewhere. 

People on GRF have had a cow because their dog foods have been 2-starred on that website, but it could have been a lot worse. There are other sites out there where the people running them, actual nutritionists with degrees, have completely dismissed those dog foods as garbage.  

I think people need to cool their tempers and use common sense when it comes to feeding their dogs.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

One of the problems with any rating site is that is almost impossible to keep up with all the changes. It becomes almost an annual rite of passage that foods are tweaked, revised, etc. To add to the frustration, it is legal for them to keep using old bags with outdated information for up to 6 months to use up their supply. The site that is so pro grain free had info that was back to 2008 last time I looked. I find it best to go to the manufacturers website as that SHOULD have the latest info.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Dumb question: what does TOTW in the title of the thread mean?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Taste of the Wild.... a grain free line made by Diamond I believe.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I didn't miss your point at all. Who is to say a dog *would live longer* on other foods than the one they have been on all their life? It goes both ways. But it is fact that if a golden lives to be 14 or 15 they got there because of their health. And I never said length of life is a measurement of food quality. I said if a dog lives that long they got there because of good health period.
> 
> As far as your PM.....this is a public message board and I have the right just as anyone else to post my opinion as long as I follow the boards rules.


Yes you did miss my point. Just because your dog lived to any age on lesser quality food is no proof that he would not live longer with better food. Nor is it proof he would have not lived shorter. But most people in life make the best choices they can for their family and pets to live as long as possible. When you deliberately choose a lower quality food in terms of its nutritional value and unhealthy content, you cannot be assured you are acting in your pets' best interest.

Since you will not accede to polite requests, I will follow your example. 

YCCS


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Good grief! Time to close this thread, imho.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think so too.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> My job doesn't have anything to do with it. I was just pointing out that my educational background (like an oral surgeon's) doesn't qualify me to evaluate dog food.


But it does not automatically disqualify a person from evaluating dog food if they have spent years outside their job learning about canine nutrition or if they have vast collaborative resources who have that background. In such cases taking that information with a grain of salt may not be justified. I am just saying until you know more about the background of the site developer other than how he earns his primary income, you can ignore what he says just as you can ignore an expert. But your basis for doing so is not necessarily sound because he may have experience you are not aware of. I am not saying take what he says as gospel, but it is worth trying to support particularly when even a cursory examination finds his evaluations to be aligned with many other resources.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

blather blather blather

I think the op got the information she was looking for.

Time to close the thread.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Yeah that seems to be necessary when someone refuses to agree with the group think that is so prevalent here even if they offer information which can simply be accepted or dismissed. But instead there is a specific group including The Moms that seems to feel that rather than making their own judgement on how to use this information it is their civic duty to publicly dismiss the integrity of the data.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

I am closing this thread because it is going nowhere.


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