# Picking up the dumbbell



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Is he teething? I generally do not do any holding work from about 5 - 10 months; at first because teething is painful and then they start a mouthy phase which I prefer to just skip over so I don't create bad habits since I have time to wait 

But, that being said, I don't generally start showing a dog in obedience until they are 3 or more


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

you have to take a picture


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> Is he teething? I generally do not do any holding work from about 5 - 10 months; at first because teething is painful and then they start a mouthy phase which I prefer to just skip over so I don't create bad habits since I have time to wait
> 
> But, that being said, I don't generally start showing a dog in obedience until they are 3 or more


He's just about done teething. His molars are about 100% in. 

I don't plan to show him in obedience until he's at least 18 months. I don't care if he goes from CD to UDX in a specific amount of time. I just want to have fun. No OTCH plans, but if we got there, I wouldn't mind. 



2Retrievers222 said:


> you have to take a picture


Of what?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm not the most obedience experienced person on here... but I think some of this might help:

- I backchain too... there was a GREAT presentation on this at clickerexpo before that helped me learn to be more efficient at the process. I only click for the cued release.
- BUT I do other work before this::

* My dog learns to pick up a variety of objects
* My dog will hold the item/s without mouthing, and at least 5 seconds of duration
* I have proofed 'holding' with my motion
* My dog has learned a good Out from playing tug. 

Esp if you've never trained this before, I would HIGHLY recommend training with other items at first, to try and preserve "perfect response only" associations with the dumbbell. 

I would NOT be opening a dog's mouth to get the dumbbell in [well...unless I was 
proofing handling exercises....but I'd be inserting things besides a dumbbell.]

If you have not done a lot of formal training before, you might have more luck with the shirley chong retrieve (google should bring it up right away).


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Think about taking video to re-watch and help you look at critera, timing, etc....

Do you have a written training plan? That might help you too...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Gibbs really dislikes when I open his mouth to place the dumbbell inside. I've read that I could try this with a small dow rod instead. What are the pros/cons of using that instead of the plastic dumbbell?


I was told you should use something that the dog does not normally get to play with. So it could be the dumbell, or if you don't have one you can use a dowel. 

For teaching hold, we were told to sit with the dog between our knees or as close as possible. You say "take it" + put the dumbbell in the dog's mouth*. And you say "give" and take the dumbbell out a second later and spit a treat at the puppy (if you keep the treats in your mouth). Then you build on that with longer intervals of holding.

And through this you should be weaning off prying the dog's mouth open to get him to take the dumbbell. Ideally, you want him to be reaching forward for the dumbbell when he hears the "take it" command. <- That's what you want to see before you go to the next step.

Then you put the dumbbell in your lap or on a chair next to you at the dog's face level and tell him to "take it". And build on that.

Then you put the dumbbell on the floor. And build on that.

Then you toss or place the dumbbell further away and direct the dog to retrieve it. <- If you have a natural retriever, this should be a snap. But until you teach your dog to pick up the dumbbell properly and carry it back to you without dropping it, kicking it, or playing with it, then you don't want to jump ahead to this. 

That's about what I picked up with my guy. This is my first experience with dumbbells and open and I have a chomper, so I'm definitely going to watch what other people say. 

- One thing I started doing with Jacks, and I'm hesitant to throw this in here as it's something I do on my own and didn't come from a teacher who obviously knows what they are doing. When he had some hesitation about practicing holds (something that you always will practice even after you move on to retrieves), I would start walking fast with him while I held the dumbbell in front of his face. Basically lured him forward with it, getting him all excited about "taking it" before I actually let him "take it" and praised him like crazy. <- This basically used his chase instinct to help reinforce "take it" from hand. 

And to draw the connection, I would immediately do a regular take it/hold right afterward and usually have a successful take.

*I forgot to explain the asterisk. My teacher from 2009 emphasized that she did not want us making the "take it" negative for the dog. So no pinching of the lips or doing excessive prying that could be uncomfortable for the dog. Same thing with closing your hand around the dog's mouth to pin it shut when the dumbbell was inside.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Tips on getting a puppy to pick up a dumbbell?
> 
> We had been trying back-chaining. I've been placing the dumbbell in his mouth and clicking for the release. I was then planning on clicking when he releases on my command, having him maintain the dumbbell in his mouth and having a good hold and over time building up the time that he holds. That isn't working so well for us.
> 
> ...


 
Picture of dumbbell in puppies mouth. Are you talking about a rubber weight lifting dumbbell


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

just looked it up

J and J Dog Supplies: Dumbbells and Retrieving


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

See Spot Fetch. Part I

I found this link with the great info about what else you can use to teach the take/hold.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

CarolinaCasey said:


> He's just about done teething. His molars are about 100% in.
> 
> I don't plan to show him in obedience until he's at least 18 months. I don't care if he goes from CD to UDX in a specific amount of time. I just want to have fun. No OTCH plans, but if we got there, I wouldn't mind.


Personally I would wait. I'll be interested in other people's opinions on this.

A typical show career for a well trained dog can last many years, with a lot of retrieving (dumbbell, scent articles etc). The fewer bad associations they have with things in their mouth that 'they' didn't choose, the happier they will be. He will want to chew things a lot in the next few months, and if he gets the idea chewing a dumbbell is rewarding, it might be a hard habit to break - holding the dumbbell and clicking are sometimes hard to combine (you click, they spit the dumbbell out for their reward). I may not be explaining this right, but sometimes I just look at all the time I have on my side for training things and at his age there is so much else he will be learning.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Tips on getting a puppy to pick up a dumbbell?
> 
> We had been trying back-chaining. I've been placing the dumbbell in his mouth and clicking for the release. I was then planning on clicking when he releases on my command, having him maintain the dumbbell in his mouth and having a good hold and over time building up the time that he holds. That isn't working so well for us.


My first thought is teething issues. I'd probably wait on formal dumbbell training. Secondary teething starts at 8 months and a lot of dogs will get mouthy again then. 

As for the training, the last thing I'd want to click in teaching a dumbbell HOLD would be the point when he releases! You don't want to reward releasing when teaching the hold; you want to reward holding.

IMO, you need a solid "give" behavior before you start teaching the hold. If he won't release on cue yet, don't start teaching the hold until you've fixed that.

With my next dog, I plan to completely shape the take and hold. I didn't with Quiz and I now think if I had, I would have been less likely to end up with a mouthing problem that took FOREVER to fix and never really went completely away.

I did start with placing the dumbbell in his mouth, gently holding it closed, giving LOTS of calm praise, petting, etc. for a few seconds, clicking while holding (which prompted him to let go b/c he knew click = treat) and then feeding. 

As this got better and he held for longer, I eventually (way, way later) started making him wait for my "give" cue and not spit out the DB on the click. So it became take > hold > click > (tiny second pause) > give > (release) > treat.

Separate from that, we played a lot of dumbbell games to make the take it part fun. That, combined with the placing in his mouth turned into taking on his own. The games made for the quick pick up.

We never ear-pinched for the take it.

ANYWAY -- I think from what you described, the biggest thing you need to be careful of is clicking for a release when teaching the hold.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sunrise said:


> Personally I would wait. I'll be interested in other people's opinions on this.
> 
> He will want to chew things a lot in the next few months, and if he gets the idea chewing a dumbbell is rewarding, it might be a hard habit to break -
> 
> ...


Comments above, in caps.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Here is how all 4 of my dogs learned to take the dumbbell:

Hold the dumbbell between you and the dog. Put a yummy treat up against the dowel of the dumbbell, on the side closest to you (make sure the dog knows it's there). Let the dog try to get the treat (he will probably nose at it, paw at it, etc). Make sure you hold tight to the treat! As soon as the dog tries putting his mouth around the bar in an attempt to get the treat, use your finger to push the treat into the dog's mouth. The dog will very quickly learn that the only way to get the treat on the other side of the bar is to put the bar in his mouth.

Once the dog will do this reliably, hold the treat slightly away from the bar (like an inch away at first). At first the dog might try some new ways to get the treat since this is a new picture, but eventually should go back to what was successful for him before - bar in mouth. Slowly increase the distance the treat is away from the dumbbell. This also helps to create the "hold." The farther away the treat is, the longer it will take to deliver the treat, and if the dog lets go early he doesn't get the treat.

The whole time the dumbbell has been in your hand in front of the dog. Once you have moved the treat away so far that it is no longer visible, begin moving the dumbbell to the floor. A few inches at a time until it is on the floor.

Once my dogs are successfully retrieving I do teach them a forced retrieve.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, I must be lucky I opened up our box from J&J with the dumbbell in it and the first thing Scout does is grab it, lol. Same with articles, she took to them and metal like it was no big deal....(I confess to FF later on because of field work--something I never thought I could do, but now really appreciate)

I have seen my instructor tie a fuzzy toy around hers to make it more fun and enjoyable to grab for her puppy. Rather than formalize it at his age (whether you FF or click) I would focus on just making it fun and take the click and food out of the picture. Tease him with it, if he doesn't pick it up grab it away quickly like it is something that is really great. You can take it out and play with it in front of him, and then hide it away. So, he sees you making his big deal about something he can't have. Be creative and find what he likes.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

At that age I would just work on retrieve games, like going to get a toy and bringing it back in different situations and with different challenges, like up the stairs and back, into another room and back, and so on, building on the idea of anywhere and everywhere we can retrieve, over grass, gravel, sidewalks, dirt, water..... 

I also do things like have them sit and wait (or be held or leashed) while I place the item for them to go find, so they learn to look and hunt for it, or play heeling type games and drop an item and send them back to find it and so on.

The formal dumbell work would be for when they are a bit older and have tons of retrieve drive, for me anyway. Also retrieiving different items and toys, whatever they'll attempt. Stuffies with a chain collar wrapped around (for the metal 'taste'), wood, leather, rubber, plastic, you get the idea. 

I think I'd be tempted (after retraining a 'get it by the ends and carry it like a dork' dog to do it right) to use a dowel for the first part of training and then add in a regular dumbell once they've got that down. 

Lana


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm happy to report that Gibbs is picking up and actively retrieving the dumbbell. I act like the dumbbell is the most fun and hilarious toy ever. At that point, he really, really wants it. I get him revved up and then throw it. He ran right after it and picked it up. I thought he was afraid of it. Maybe I hadn't made it exciting enough. We only did this a few times and then put it away before he began to mouth/chew it.

I think I will continue to make it fun like this for a while. Once we're ready to move on, I will begin to use some of the other methods that you mentioned to have Gibbs keep the dumbbell in his mouth and to continue to hold until asked to release.

Thanks again!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

great news! Glad to hear of his progress! All you had to do was use his natural instincts to your own advantage


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I avoid letting them play with a dumbell, as this is a no go later on. I encourage Samson to retrieve anything else though. He loves dowels, sticks, balls etc.
I reward an immediate retrieve BIG TIME at this stage. I trained Casey with just a clicker for the retrieve and he is absolutely as reliable as any dog I know trained with the forced retrieve. He just loves to fetch, and I am trying to develop this in Sam too, which has been easy so far.


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