# Attitude after Correction (12 weeks old)



## Hobbit Dog (Jan 25, 2015)

We have a 12 week old puppy we got when he was 9 weeks old. We've had a dog before, but Pippin is our first puppy. He is quick to learn "do" commands, but he is very mouthy and doesn't seem to understand our "no". Even worse, after we correct him, he gets 'attitude' and barks at us. Often there's a cycle of correction-attitude-correction-attitude and it's broken when we distract him or give him a command he can follow, then praise him to break the downward spiraling mood. But then it just feels like we only escaped the moment, and he still doesn't know not to mouth and not to sass! Is it reasonable to expect that he can learn not to mouth/tug at clothes or do we 'redirect' for months on end? We want him to learn he CAN'T mouth and CAN'T sass us!! We have three kids and I'm afraid he's really killing the bonding potential right now. This happens several times a day.

What a valuable forum. This is my inaugural post and I have such high hopes I'm going to learn so much.


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## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Welcome to the forum

Puppies are cheeky little pixies. They mouth, jump and bite at us. Your pup is absolutely normal. This is how they play with their litter mates. We try to teach them how to please by redirecting and teaching them how they can please us. Just like children sometimes they forget and need constant reminding and reinforcement. 

I liken it to like us learning another language. We make mistakes, we need someone to be patient with us, encourage us and show us that it really does matter to do things the right way. This means that as teachers we need to be consistent and try to make every situation a learning opportunity with a lot of praise. This takes months of practice.

When he does act out think of it as him asking you for help. How can I handle this abundant energy? How can I please you? How can I connect with you? Do you have a toy for me to play with? Can I play with you?

Teaching him, "Nice pat." during the quiet times will also be helpful. Later you can use it when he is energetic. Pippin siT! nice pat, gooood boy. Here have a toy.

Every day he is one step closer to becoming the golden boy you have dreamed of. We just need to put in the hard work first. It is not easy but it is so worth it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell is a great puppy book. This little dog is a baby who has only been on earth for a few weeks. You should build you relationship by "catching" the puppy being right and doing things right, and offering alternative behaviors and management for many other things. Corrections to a young baby will mainly hurt your relationship with the dog. The pup is giving you feedback, so use more rewards for what you do want, and management/redirection for what you dont want. Puppies do what they rehearse/practice, so the cycle you describe is headed in the wrong direction. Try a new approach.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Puppyhood is tough. It will get better, then worse when teething starts around 16 weeks, then all of a sudden you will have an angel, and after that it gets worse than before. Survive all of that and you will have an amazing companion. As the others are saying, normal puppy bahavior


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

The barking is probably just confusion on his part...he's still a baby and doesn't speak English, so all he knows at this point is that you're mad and so he either tries to start a game by barking to cheer you up or he's barking because he doesn't know what else to do.

Dogs aren't kids. They don't "sass," especially when they're mentally the equivalent of a six-month-old human infant. Try to think confused, not defiant, until such time as he actually sits up, looks you in the eye, and tells you he's borrowing your car no matter what you say. At that point, definitely take his phone away and ground him for a week!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

"No" isn't a command. It can take them a while to understand it, because, as you're observed, they learn action commands readily but something vague like "no" is very hard. 
If you were just standing in the middle of the room, in your own mind doing nothing, and someone said "NO" to you, you'd be clueless, too. 
No standing? No breathing? No looking around? And so on.
This is probably how your puppy feels. How can he perform a "no"? He has no idea what's up with that.
The biggest thing with the biting, in my experience, is to always have something suitable for him to chew on in a pocket, etc. where you can immediately re-direct him to something that's appropriate.
Puppy bites you---you say no biting---(notice this is different than "no") and immediately give him something that he is allowed to chew on, especially one of his favorite things. Then praise him for taking it. 
With puppies that like to be mouthy, keep your praise calm and low key. Otherwise he will get excited, and start mouthing you all over again!
We like photos, btw


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

all excellent guidance above! Dog training has changed quite a bit in the past 15 or so years with a strong focus on positive behavioral support (vs. using punishment/correction). In other words, teaching/reinforcing what you DO want and avoiding correction/punishment responses. We taught our puppy the "do" command of "time out" which meant stop what you are doing (usually when he got too rambunctious) and sit with us and be petted/calmed. We did not use it a lot but it was very effective when he got wound up and it worked very well! Mouthing lasts a while so finding ways to redirect will be in important for the next few months.
Good luck! stay calm and be patient


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## Hobbit Dog (Jan 25, 2015)

Thanks all. What is confusing is that he is SO QUICK to learn so it's surprising that he keeps trying the no-nos. The "sass" doesn't seem far-fetched to think he's saying "I don't like when you tell me no!" or at the very least "I don't like what you're doing right now!" because he is smart enough to dig faster, eat poop quicker, run away with a shoe, etc. when he knows we are wanting him to stop. I'm not saying I don't agree with you...it's all just very new. 

We are 'attachment style parents' (emphasis on relationship) with our kids -- so positive training isn't a stretch for us. What I do think is reasonable for dogs, though, is to communicate your displeasure, expectations, and even have a startle/negative consequence for what you don't want (for redirection purposes and not to cause fear). Our approach is morphing every day, though, so I appreciate the input. Wish somehow we could have had a practice puppy to have this all worked out beforehand. Same with kids, eh? By the third or fourth kid, you have it all figured out...except you're exhausted. But I digress!

We went to a trainer who called Pippin 'sturdy' (not super-sensitive) and definitely has an authoritative approach. My husband and I tried it, and as Ljilly28 suggested, we need a new approach. We aren't yellers, and the gorilla posture and huge jug of rocks weren't working. I respect her as a trainer...I just think we need to try different things. She may even have other suggestions but we can't afford any more private lessons to know what they are. 

Bottom line, though, I'm kinda hearing that we are on a path of redirection/consistency and toughing it out.


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## Hobbit Dog (Jan 25, 2015)

Here's a pic. He's REALLY advanced in potty training.


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## Hobbit Dog (Jan 25, 2015)

Oh, now I feel like I have to explain that that toilet and sink are not in my yard! This is actually in a classy garden, as in, a tourist destination. It's hard to tell with it looking so junky and dirty but that is normal Oregon winter for ya. In the spring and summer, they are bursting with blooms.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Maybe it helps to remember that all of the no's...digging, chewing, barking, eating stuff, running away to keep a prize...are actually normal dog behaviors and in fact are useful tools in dog world? So we're asking them not only to learn our habits and language, we're also asking them to stop doing those things that are instinctive. Really, it's amazing that dogs make that transition so well so often.

Since he is such a quick learner, the more you can praise him for when he gets it right rather than correcting him for just being a dog, the faster you'll establish a working relationship that will be positive and rewarding.

You've had him three weeks. Cut him and yourself some slack, yes?


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

i don't think you need a private trainer but you may want to consider enrolling in a puppy class - they tend to be very helpful and focus a lot on helping us (humans) think about what we're doing/why we are doing it. The puppy classes also make a point that puppies (and dogs) don't "think" like us so their "misbehavior" is not intentional in the way that an adolescent might misbehave. 
Ian Dunbar has written some good books on puppy training/behavior of you're looking for written materials.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Biggest thing is not to expect all the mouthing to stop immediately. I know a lot of people do want that and get frustrated when they can't. There's no magic word. Just a lot of "dealing" and management - especially when you have a particularly oral dog.

I have pictures of my dogs (crappy ones) but nonetheless - shows how dogs communicate and play with each other. This when you have animals with a very solid and close relationship. My dogs are like brothers. 










^ Mouthing....










^ Using the paws










^ Posturing










^ My dogs were being lazy here, but generally the game involves taking turns being top-dog and under-dog while playing. 



The above pictures show how these dogs play. It's rough. It's MOUTHY. There's a lot of biting legs, biting necks, and even in some cases going after heads. It's how these dogs learn to play going right back to when they were puppies with their littermates and mom.

Difference is when the dogs are playing with each other - they don't get scratched up and bruised like with us. That's what you get after early bite inhibition and communication even now while the dogs play - if they bite too hard and the other dog lets out a squeak, the mouthing dog backs off or lets up. They continue biting though. <- Obviously even the slightest mouthing with people and kids causes scratches and bruises, regardless of bite inhibition. Of course the dogs don't know that difference. They just want to play with their "pack" and this is how golden retrievers play.  

With your kids - I guarantee they are seen as littermates to your dog. So there will definitely be mouthing and scratching (them using their paws like shown above) and so on until your dog gradually gets the idea that this is not how he gets to play with your kids. 

I'm not a fan of dog parks or things like that..... but if you have any friends with young dogs or puppy safe dogs (preferably a retriever breed or breed that has a similar play style to golden retrievers) - you might want to every week set up a play date. Give your dog an outlet for being allowed to act and play like a dog. It will help. 

Other thing is - as opposed to walking the heck out of the puppy right now.... give him outlets to burn off energy. Literally every hour during a regular day, bundle up (if you are somewhere cold like me) and head outside with your pup. Spend 10-20 minutes letting him run around and play. 

These play outings are separate from potty outings - simply because when you take your puppy out in the middle of the night (which you may still be doing for potty training) - you want him to go immediately and then come back to bed. 

With my guys they generally were on leash for potty outings and offleash for play. <- We have a lot of yard though, so it might not be safe other places (my sister has a postage stamp sized yard so my dogs when we visit invariably have a problem staying on her property and off the road). 

Buy a ton of different texture toys and chews. Because it is natural for them to be trying their mouths on everything. 

Other thing is recognizing when your puppy is getting too hyped up. There's a line as far as when they are easily calmed down and re-directed.... and beyond that they get really too much worked up and are not easily calmed down. Other side of that line, you probably are getting a lot of the far worse behavior by way of biting, nose-wrinkling, puppy-snapping (the lunge air-snaps they may do), growling, barking, etc.

It's up to you to learn where that line is and calm your pup down before he crosses it. There may be a need to really work on separating the kids and the pup at these times. As the kids probably are counter-productive at those times (I know because my sibs were very young when we got our first dog). Me personally, I'd send the kids somewhere to play elsewhere and keep the pup with me to do a little impromptu training and quiet play with him.

Other thing.... this is a side note. My Jacks who was the mouthy one of the two I have right now.... until he was about 2 years old, he still had the tendency to use his mouth and paws for play every time he got more than a little excited. He was easily calmed down in general, but still would get nips in at first. I literally had nonstop bruises on my legs through those 2 years. That dog is my special boy. I have the younger one really becoming very close to me (more so than Jacks), but Jacks is still my special heart-dog. So even when you have a dog who drives you nuts and so on... you are definitely going to form a strong bond with that dog anyway. It just really depends on getting a good routine and working with him.

Other thing to suggest before I shut up here... there's a lot of families that come in for dog training at one of the places I train at. I've watched time and again and basically my come away feeling is that the families where you have every member of the family including the kids taking turns bossing the dogs around for treats... the training is a bit more sloppy and all over the place in those cases. And the dogs don't really have a clear bond and love for one person in those cases - as you do when there is just one person training the dogs and really working with them. A lot of the time, it's because you aren't going to have identical training techniques with all these people. And it's really inappropriate to expect dogs to perfectly obey what are essentially their littermates. That's my perspective. 

The cases I know of that work are those where the kids are slightly older and have more responsibility for training those dogs (meaning it is just them training the dogs, not every member of the family). I was 10 when I started training our first dog.... a lot of the junior handlers I've seen really begin training their first dogs in obedience around 8-10.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Welcome to the forum.

As the recent survivor of puppyhood...he's almost 15 months old now...I can tell you that you have assessed every situation correctly. He doesn't know what you are talking about.

When you say NO, he barks and bites because he thinks you are playing with him. Go right to the distraction..toy, chewie or whatever. And no, it doesn't last long. They come right back for more.

Make no mistake, the information IS getting in; bits and pieces. As he matures he will put it all together. We have noticed in the last couple of months that Our Mr. Darcy doesn't play as rough with us and responds to "that's enough" when we are done. It takes time; you'll get there.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Here's a picture of two foster puppies I had years ago. It looks like they're both going in for the kill, but it's how they played. And they weren't even that mouthy with my daughter or me, just with each other...


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

"Is it reasonable to expect that he can learn not to mouth/tug at clothes or do we 'redirect' for months on end? We want him to learn he CAN'T mouth and CAN'T sass us!! We have three kids and I'm afraid he's really killing the bonding potential right now."

No it is not reasonable at this age to expect him not to sass and to stop mouthing. You bought a retriever that was bred to pick up things with his mouth. He will be mouthy for some time. At this stage I would expect a lot of redirection to a toy or chew item. Don't think this is not working because he does not get it right away. You are creating a habit where chewing is allowed on these item. It takes time to create a habit. Second, if he keeps coming back to chew on you then think of a 2 year old toddler that is having a melt down. He needs a NAP. Time for a couple of hours in his crate. Think of that as his crib. Nothing mean about it at all. Babies need lots of sleep and if they don't get it they tend to be difficult to deal with. 

As for the bonding - he is bonding with you and it shows in the chewing!!! He loves you and wants to touch you with his mouth. He wants to interact with you and he is doing it like all dogs do. They bark, play, wrestle, chew, chase each other, get another dog to chase him. You are thinking human and he is thinking dog. Time to learn your puppy's language. 

He is a beautiful puppy - enjoy these times as they pass quickly.


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## Hobbit Dog (Jan 25, 2015)

Thanks all. I really, really appreciate your encouragement and information. He is already responding better to redirection and a little yelping. I've had a lot of Puppy World input and have made the 16 week benchmark loom a little too large. I know this is prime time for socialization and training, but that just means it should start in earnest, not that he should master everything in 16 weeks. Ha!! It's just the beginning.


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