# I caved... Prong/Pinch Collar



## cisobe

We've had Tobey for a little over a year and a half, he's a great dog, but is quite exciteable around other dogs, especially on leash (he's fine at the dog parks, but on leash is a different story). He also couldn't resist his urges to grab a leaf, pebble, stick, paper, etc off the ground...

We tried verbal correction as a puppy and as he's gotten older, but a stern no, never really seemed to do anything. We started off with a harness when he was a puppy, and he just kept pulling and pulling. The harness seemed to give him more leverage, so we changed to a regular flat collar. Same story, but a little less leverage on his part. We also tried a martingale, but it was no better than the flat collar. Once we started obedience classes, we were instructed to pick up a choke chain. This seemed to work for basic training (sit, heel, down, etc) but when he gets worked up (when he sees other dogs), all bets were off, he was leaping, and lunging all over the place. No amounts of correction seemed to work, and it seemed like the corrections did anything to him he just went right back to jumping and lunging. We tried haltis but he ate through two of them. The first one, he broke on our first walk with it on (somehow he got the part that goes over his muzzle and connects to the O ring into his mouth, and just chewed through it). The second one, he just got really excited and it snapped.

We recently picked up a Canny collar, and that seems to work when other dogs are at a distance, I can redirect him guide him in a different direction. If the other owners and dogs come within a ~25ft of us, he starts pulling and gets overly excited and it gets quite difficult to keep him under control.

During our last training session, our instructor suggested I try a prong collar. I've been very hesitant to try it, and have resisted it to this point, but if I can't get Tobey under control, it will be very detrimental to his quality of life (limited outdoor walks to later at night when no other dogs are around, no hikes, beach, etc). Our instructor, explained that typically you only need to use the prong collar for a couple months, and you can transition them back to a regular choke chain, or martingale. He explained that you can start transitioning them off the prong collar by flipping the prongs outward one or two at a time, till all of the prongs are facing outward.

I reluctantly went to one of the pet supply stores... and checked them out. When no one was around, I tried it on my neck, and gave it a couple light tugs, and yes it does pinch and the prongs aren't the most comfortable feeling against your neck. I reluctantly bought the collar, and tried it out on Tobey. The difference was amost immediate. We went out for our first walk with it on, and after the first few very light tugs to correct his heeling, he was right next to me, watching me and watching my pace. a couple very slight tugs when stopping had him sitting when ever I stopped... I had to give him a couple slightly stronger correction tugs when we saw another dog, but he actually settled down (instead of constantly jumping and lunging till the dog is out of sight).

I'm keeping my fingers crossed, and hoping we can transition off this thing in a month or so, but so far, it's been working quite well. I'm a bit dissappointed I had to resort to something like this, but if I can get Tobey under control, and able to walk past other dogs, and not pull and jump and lung. It's ultimately better and safe for him (he can't pull and possible knock my wife over, or get loose and into traffic once free).

I read the other thread regarding the prong collar, and was very nervous and apprehensive about using this. I've been constantly checking Tobey's neck for any damage, but so far so good. I've also been quite concious of how much pressure I apply (having tried it on myself). Given that, I'm still a bit dissappointed, yet excited to see Tobey making progress...


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## DNL2448

When used *PROPERLY*, they are better than slip chains, IMHO. I hope it works for you and Tobey.


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## GoldensGirl

When my dogs dragged me face down across a park several years ago, a highly respected trainer recommend the prong collar. I was horrified by the thought, but I finally had to give in. It was that or give up walking my dogs.

Properly fitted, the prong collar is so loose that the prongs don't touch the skin or even the fur. The dog controls whether they ever do, since pulling against the collar is the only thing that tightens it against them. As you have seen, that happens only once or twice before the dog decides that pulling isn't good.

Lots of people here will rant at you about taking this step. Be prepared for that. My opinion has been shaped by my dogs' response: When they hear the rattle of the collar, they come running and vie to see who will have the collar on first! I don't believe that would happen if the collar caused them pain.

Best of luck with Tobey!


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## Stretchdrive

DNL2448 said:


> When used *PROPERLY*, they are better than slip chains, IMHO. I hope it works for you and Tobey.


I agree, hope it works for you guys!!


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## cisobe

Thanks... This was one of the hardest decisions I had to make for Tobey. And for those people who will try to beat me down for using this... Then so be it. Hopefully they can see that I have tried many other alternatives, however I have reluctantly decided to use the prong for both the well-being of Tobey as well has his safety as well as safety for those who walk him. All dogs are different, and some respond to certain types of training, while others don't.

He is a great dog, and I wouldn't ever do anything to hurt him. However, I will do anything in my power to keep him, safe, and give him the best quality of life I can. I don't enjoy knowing that every time I tug on the prong collar, it's causing him discomfort (who knows it might bother me more than it does him). But knowing that he is responding, and has been improving offers me some level of comfort knowing that hopefully one day we can move back to either the Canny or martingale and have him completely under control.


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## Tahnee GR

DNL2448 said:


> When used *PROPERLY*, they are better than slip chains, IMHO. I hope it works for you and Tobey.


Agreed. The key word is properly, and it sounds like you are doing it right.


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## Radarsdad

Why disappointed??
Now both of you can enjoy your walk and it probably won't be a permanent thing. That's why I like them to teach acceptable behavior in public. They get taught how to act properly and what to expect. 
Less stress on them and you!!! Instead of going through 3 or 4 of latest fad collars to find one that works. 
If every time you go out is a battle to get your pup behave in an acceptable manner you are losing a war that doesn't need to be fought.
If other folks want to listen to their dog wheezing against a collar they can pull against and play tug of war from the door back to the door more power to them. 
But not me. Frankly I want my dog to enjoy my company not somebody to fight against.


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## LucyBluz

I also reluctantly started using one on my puppy and it has made all the difference in the world. Just the slightest tug and she responds immediately. Most of the time the leash is loose and she doesn't even know it is on her. Her trainer is the one that trains the dogs and cats at Sea World in San Diego and I have total confidence in him. Good luck.


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## Ranger

I was in the same situation with Ranger. He pulled like a freight train and a choke chain was good for basic obedience but any time we went somewhere new or distractions, he'd pull like a maniac and it was back to step 1. I had been looking forward to being able to walk my new dog everywhere and go exploring all over the city and I was SO disappointed that our walks always ended with me being frustrated. Every walk turned into a training session even after 4 months of daily work. Finally, I bought a prong. 

It was like night and day. Turns out Ranger knew HOW to walk nicely, he just hadn't bothered because the correction of a slip/choke/martingale wasn't enough to dissuade him from pulling. Cookies/praise were worthless as positive reinforcement; he'd duck his head out of the way and knock my hand with a treat out of the way, too. Within a day of the prong, we were able to go on a 5 mile walk by the river with other dogs, people, and geese and he didn't pull once. A prong only helped our relationship AND Ranger's training. He wears a martingale now when we walk around the block but if we're going somewhere different or exciting, I put the prong back on him. It's made such a huge difference and he loooves it. When he hears the prong rattling (not his leash, but the prong) he comes running!


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## Karen519

*Prong Collar*

After working with Tonka close to a year, we also went to the prong collar.
Now Ken and I are not in danger of being pulled down and breaking something and we ALL CAN ENJOY the walk.
Tucker walks fine without one. I wish we had used the prong collar sooner!
Best of luck with Tobey.


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## Sienna's Mom

Hi, don't know if my post was the "other post" : but I wanted to add that I don't feel we kept up on correcting Sienna while she was wearing the prong- we did pull her up short, but didn't do the short correcting pops that is recommended- we got lax after a bit, thinking the collar was the correction, if that makes any sense.

What I mean is LOL, remember to keep it up, be aware. Sienna is such a puller that after a while I think she just got used to it in some way and pulled through the pinching.

Forgive me LOL, I didn't sleep well at all last night, but I think you get the general sense of what I am trying to say.

I will say that I will still use the prong on certain occasions, like if we are meeting the kids at the bus stop, where the excitement is over the top.


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## cisobe

I think it was your post regarding the prong collar. Our instructor spent a while after class explaining the proper use of the prong collar, and emphasized the short pop correction. The next big test for Tobey will be this Sunday (or first training class with the prong collar on). We've been working on heeling with the prong collar on this week, hopefully he will be able to transition this training and be able to perform at the training park.

thanks again for the support, like i said, it was a very difficult decision for me to make... however, as time goes on, I'm glad I made it...


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## Titan1

That was my dirty little secret on here for a while until I came clean.
They have not thrown me out yet!:


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## vcm5

When used correctly, the prong collar has actually shown to be much better for the dog's health than the choke collar. Good luck!!


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## tippykayak

I'm not a big fan of prongs, but I'm not writing this post to condemn your choice. I just wanted to point out something I noticed when I read the post. In all the things you describe that you've tried, you've only described the things you did to correct the undesired pulling. You didn't once mention how you were teaching your dog what you actually wanted instead of pulling or how you reinforced it when it was offered. Maybe you did some of that rewarding, but your post seems to indicate that it's not a central part of your mindset when you were training.

It's much easier to teach a dog what you want him to do than to teach a dog to stop doing something self-reinforcing. It can be a subtle shift in mindset, but it can make a world of difference.

So I'm not telling you to give up the prong (though I do think you can accomplish what you want without it), but I am hoping to convince you to remember that effectively and consistently rewarding your dog for what you want is at least as important as delivering a correction for what you don't want. If you don't use the corrections to provide space to reward your dog (and make your central goal teaching your dog that offering loose leash is fun rather than teaching your dog that pulling leads to correction), you may end up having to use the prong indefinitely.


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## vcm5

That is excellent advice tippkayak, that is what I would definitely recommend for you to do if you haven't already tried this exhaustively.


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## cisobe

We extensively tried positive verbal reinforcement coupled with treats, as well as some clicker training. He didn't really respond to the positive verbal reinforcement and encouragement (only responded when accompanied by treats).

We currently train with treats, and positive verbal reinforcement with the prong collar on, and previously with the choke chain. His pulling isn't extensive on regular walks, with few or little distractions. Tobey just overly excited when he sees certain people, and most definitely when he sees other dogs.

We've tried turning and walking the opposite direction (praising and rewarding him when he turns and walks with us, and doesn't focus on the other dog), but he just focuses in, and continues to pull in the direction of the other dog(s). We've tried to desenstize him to having many dogs around us at training class, and walking our sheltie past him, while he's sitting by my side (rewarding and praising when he stays calm), but he still gets worked up, jumps, and lunges, etc.

We've also tried to distract, and hold his attention with food. Rewarding him when he concentrates on us and not on the distraction.

Our sheltie responds very well to positive verbal reinforcement and treats. He quickly learned all the basics by the time he was about 12-14wks old (sit, stay, down, and on leash heeling). A few weeks later he was heeling quite decently off leash. I tried all the same techniques that worked with our sheltie with Tobey, but they are completely different dogs, with completely different personalities and learning methods (just like people).

I'm not saying I didn't make mistakes along the way with Tobey or Bailey (our sheltie), but it also doesn't mean I haven't tried my best to provide them the training they deserve and need. Tobey attended both Puppy and Basic Obedience classes (each 11 week courses). We attended almost every single class, the same with Bailey (Basic and Intermediate classes). Tobey is now attending his 3rd 11 week session, and we are going to keep going as long as we can.

I'm not making any excuses for my inability to settle Tobey down on my own, and without having to resort to the means that I have at hand... but we have and will continue to work with him. If I fail him and he continues to be our wild child, it won't be for a lack of trying, but we will still love him no different.


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## tippykayak

I feel like my comments came off a bit as an accusation that you had made mistakes, and that's not what I was going for. I was really just emphasizing that a training protocol isn't as effective as it could be if correction is the main teaching and reinforcement method, and your life may get easier if you think about attention and leash training as a matter of positively reinforcing what you want more than punishing what you don't.

It does sound like there are some things you could do to be more effective with your positive reinforcement, and they're worth trying so Tobey doesn't become dependent on the prong for management. 

For example, when you talk about how food won't control his attention, you're experiencing a common problem with food reinforcement. Food is more powerful (for lots of dogs) than most distractions, but it often pales next to the the really important distractions. That doesn't make it useless, but it does mean that you can't use food in a bidding war against distractions.

When working on attention and distractions, I find food rewards work best when the dog isn't working directly for the food. I hide it as best I can and only produce it _after_ the dog does something I want. The key is to build and reinforce the habit in situations you can control so you're pitting the _habit_ against the distraction, not the reward.

For me, if my dog is distracted to the point that I can't get his attention, I don't feel right upping my correction level to break through his distraction. If liverwurst won't do it, I'm not prepared to use pain, discomfort, or surprise strong enough to do it; the situation is no longer a training opportunity for me. What I do is go back to a lower level of distraction and repeat and positively reinforce the habit I want so I can bring a stronger habit to the situation the next time around.

So no judgment from me, just an attempt to help you use the positive aspects as effectively as possible. We all need to use the tools we feel are necessary to keep our dogs safe and properly managed, and that's more important than my feelings on this or that particular tool.


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## cubbysan

I had to use a prong collar for two of my dogs and it worked wonders. When they got older, I just turned all the prongs to face up, instead of using a choke collar. I also used the smaller prongs, and just added the extra prongs to get the correct size.

Please though, when using the prong keep the leash latched to both the prong collar and the regular collar. This is to prevent your dog from running out into the street if one of the prongs unhooks.


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## Jamm

Question... I tried the prong collar for Joey too, but i felt as if he couldn't feel it because of all of his fur. Thus he still pulled/pulls with it. Now we use the Gentle leader. Do you feel the same?


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## cisobe

No offense taken... My reply did sound quite defensive... Over the past year or so that we've had Tobey. I've found my patience thin with some comments that people make when they see Tobey go into one of his excited bouts... I've heard comments that I must neglect him, or that I don't train him, etc, which is completely untrue.

I'm always open to new training methods. Thank you for your input, and I will keep your suggestions in mind as I work with Tobey. Pain and discomfort is never the goal, but the pain and discomfort would be far better than losing control of his leash, and Tobey either getting into a dangerous situation, or possibly getting into trouble (dog fights, or knocking someone over).

I like to view things from both sides of an arguement, and to understand both equally. When we first got Tobey, my goal was to be able to train him completely through positive methods, and to a point we had some success. We tried to make our short training sessions fun and exciting, but he was very easily distracted, and he was quite stubborn and impulsive. He was also our first puppy (for my wife and I together), so training ended up being trial and error, and just trying something that works.

Maybe we learned some valuable lessons with Tobey, and subconciously applied them to Bailey our sheltie. But he responded well to positive reinforcement.

Hopefully in time, we can overcome this current hurdle, and can move on to enjoy other aspects of training, but for now, getting him to settle down in various situations, and environments is the key. Thanks agian for your input.


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## cisobe

My understanding is that corrections with the prong collar need to be made like a quick pop and release. You should never pull and hold. As with a choke chain, dogs can get used to the pressure and it will become less and less effective and possibly very harmful.

We do still use our Canny collar when we know there will be very few distractions (our late night bathroom walk), and he does well on that. The prong collar is primarily for high distraction situations, obedience class, afternoon walks, and training sessions, where we need complete control of him. So far this week, ~90% of the time, he's been able to walk on a loose leash, and has heeled well with the prong collar, and i've noticed some improvement in him when he's on his Canny Collar.


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## mylissyk

GoldensGirl said:


> ...
> Properly fitted, the prong collar is so loose that the prongs don't touch the skin or even the fur. The dog controls whether they ever do, since pulling against the collar is the only thing that tightens it against them. As you have seen, that happens only once or twice before the dog decides that pulling isn't good....


This is the opposite of the way my obedience instructor showed us how to fit the prong collar. She fit it snuggly so that it stays up high on the neck, just behind the ears.

Could our trainers on the board tell us which is the correct way to fit the pinch collar?

Cisobe, I'm really glad you found a tool that will make your walks more pleasant. Don't feel bad that you are using the prong collar, if it works for you that's all that matters.


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## cisobe

My obedience instructor told me that the collar should be snug and set high up on the neck too.


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## NJgoldengirl

You're definitely not alone! I too have a golden (one of three) who needs the prong collar. I also was reluctant to get one, but then I eventually did and it works wonders (yes, if used properly). I also bought the end caps that you can put over the prong ends. I hope it all goes well with Tobey!


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## Sally's Mom

My only experience was with a micro prong, teaching golden #2 to heel. At that time, since it was for attention training, the collar was up high behind the ears and snug. Perhaps for general leash walking it is fitted differently? Personally, I like the gentle leaders for control when I am walking multiple dogs. However, the gentle leader doesn't teach them anything and they are right back to pulling when they come off.

The trainer I work with says dogs pull because they learn to pull. That is so true with my dogs. Most of them as pups go out on a leash because my yard is not fenced. So when they tell me they have to go, we rush out. I admit they learn to pull me down the steps. However, the one who has never pulled is Tiki. She literally was never on a leash as a pup and she was also very sick as a pup, so she came to work with me every day. She would follow me out of the hospital, do her business, then follow me in. As Tippykayak said, pulling is very reinforcing.


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## LibertyME

A collar is a collar...not a necklace. They are to be worn high and snug.

I know of no collar worn for training that is intended to be worn as a necklace....it defeats the whole purpose of getting information to the dog at the instant that they need it to gather clear information and make different choices....not a few paw steps after the fact.


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## GoldensGirl

LibertyME said:


> A collar is a collar...not a necklace. They are to be worn high and snug.
> 
> I know of no collar worn for training that is intended to be worn as a necklace....it defeats the whole purpose of getting information to the dog at the instant that they need it to gather clear information and make different choices....not a few paw steps after the fact.


Worn loose - not like a necklace, but not tight, either - the prongs touch only when the dog pulls. That's pretty quick feedback and it has been 100% successful in stopping my dogs' pulling. 

This is not to argue with an expert, since I am definitely not a trainer, but I use the prong collar as it was shown to me and it has worked well this way.


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## Muddypaws

I am another reluctant user but worked with my trainer and it made a huge difference with walking the dogs. I transitioned them off by using it with a martingale, both collars on the dogs, started off with the pinch and would switch to the martingale. I have stopped using the pinch but if they start to return to the "old" ways I will pull them out again. It's a tool for teaching a correct behavior, used correctly it makes a huge difference.


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