# Toy Motivation? / Increasing Toy Drive?



## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

What are your best tips to get your golden to be toy motivated? 

I've see some dogs go laser focused - during training - when they are given their toy.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Bumping up


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

"Toy drive"?


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

SRW said:


> "Toy drive"?


Lots of dock diving friends refer to “toy drive”. My dogs have all naturally had “prey drive” but I look for that in the lines. To encourage “toy drive” many of the people at a dock diving event will tease the dog with a toy, then take it away, and toss it out into the pool. The dog jumps after it. I’ve also heard of people playing tug with a big rope to encourage “toy drive”. Keep in mind not all dock diving dogs are retrievers and many instinctually don’t have “prey drive”. 

I’m sorry I can’t be of any real help, as I’ve never had it be an issue. I enjoyed dock diving with Moe for a bit. His was hunt training based, put him in sit, walk to the end of the dock and throw the bumper, release him on his name. It also gave him some great water entries as a bonus.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The dog either has it.... or doesn't. 🤷‍♂️


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

With my dog, when I’ve wanted to increase the value of a specific toy (his bumper, for the most part), I’ve just made a huge game about it- we’re running around and he can’t have it can’t have it running back and forth and Ohmygod go get it!! Give it back and let’s run around some more and spin around and sit and down and sit and down and and go get it!!
I’ve made a huge deal about him having the toy, and he goes bananas whenever I take out his bumper. I don’t know how to increase overall toy value/toy drive, though.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

SRW said:


> "Toy drive"?


I think the OP probably means “play” drive. A lot of obedience people use tugging/retrieving/playing as a reward in addition to or instead of food. But this drive is probably highly related to prey drive. 

But kinda like Kate said, dogs typically are motivated by play or are not. And that is not breed specific.

The advantage to a play motivated dog in competition obedience, IMO, is that you don’t need to depend on food jackpots for a reward after a run. You can just play tug and have a dog ready for more. You can also use bouncy hand touches as a reward between exercises. But the dog has to have the drive to begin with. These are tools to use with a dog that’s already driven.

I started using a yarn ball as a reward for Eevee when she was just a baby. She LOVES it.

Eevee is motivated by the jumping/retrieving part of dock diving. Like SUPER motivated. I don’t need to tease her with the bumper. Just being put in a stay while I walk to the edge is enough for her. 😆


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> But kinda like Kate said, dogs typically are motivated by play or are not. And that is not breed specific.


Some dogs are lazy. Often it is because they are overweight, sometimes it is just in their personality.


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

SRW said:


> "Toy drive"?



I may be using the term/phrase incorrectly.

Most goldens can be trained easily using treats/food rewards. I've noticed - german shepherds for example - get rewarded with a toy/play instead and not food. 

Is it possible to transition from food to toy?


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Lots of dock diving friends refer to “toy drive”. My dogs have all naturally had “prey drive” but I look for that in the lines. To encourage “toy drive” many of the people at a dock diving event will tease the dog with a toy, then take it away, and toss it out into the pool. The dog jumps after it. I’ve also heard of people playing tug with a big rope to encourage “toy drive”. Keep in mind not all dock diving dogs are retrievers and many instinctually don’t have “prey drive”.
> 
> I’m sorry I can’t be of any real help, as I’ve never had it be an issue. I enjoyed dock diving with Moe for a bit. His was hunt training based, put him in sit, walk to the end of the dock and throw the bumper, release him on his name. It also gave him some great water entries as a bonus.


This is exactly what I was trying to explain. Thanks!


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

FinnTheFloof said:


> With my dog, when I’ve wanted to increase the value of a specific toy (his bumper, for the most part), I’ve just made a huge game about it- we’re running around and he can’t have it can’t have it running back and forth and Ohmygod go get it!! Give it back and let’s run around some more and spin around and sit and down and sit and down and and go get it!!
> I’ve made a huge deal about him having the toy, and he goes bananas whenever I take out his bumper. I don’t know how to increase overall toy value/toy drive, though.


Thanks! I'll try that. Usually his toys are out and easy to get. A class I'm taking suggests hiding the toy, to increase it's value. I'm looking to transition to "toy rewards" from "food rewards."


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

MintChip said:


> Is it possible to transition from food to toy?


Yes, at about 8 to 10 weeks old.
I have proof of it.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

MintChip said:


> Thanks! I'll try that. Usually his toys are out and easy to get. A class I'm taking suggests hiding the toy, to increase it's value. I'm looking to transition to "toy rewards" from "food rewards."


If you drop something and it rolls under the couch and you can’t _quite _reach it, it’s so much more rewarding when you finally get it, right? If the dog has to work to get the toy, whether that work is just chasing you around or retrieving it or doing a trick, it makes it much more rewarding when they get it, especially if you let them come super close and not get it a couple of times, to build up frustration. For most of my boy’s toys, I’ll use them to tug or retrieve and that’s more of a reward than the toy it’s self, but for his bumper, which I’ve always made a huge deal about (unlike his other toys), just having it is a reward for him.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

MintChip said:


> I may be using the term/phrase incorrectly.
> 
> Most goldens can be trained easily using treats/food rewards. I've noticed - german shepherds for example - get rewarded with a toy/play instead and not food.
> 
> Is it possible to transition from food to toy?


Depending on what sports people are doing, or what sports their breed is good at, can change how they reward their dog. I mostly see pet GSDs being rewarded with food, but I’ll see GSDs and Malinois that do schutzhund or other bite sports being rewarded with toys or tug. Also, because those breeds are bred for biting (technically Goldens should also be mouth oriented because of retrieving, but a lot of lines have lost that and pet breeders and BYBs never really had it to begin with), they’ll be more rewarded by doing something that they’re naturally good at. For Goldens, a retrieve can be a really good reward, because they were bred to retrieve.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

When you make the work the reward your dog will be 100% focused on what he is doing and when done he will be eagerly anticipating the next task.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Some dogs are lazy. Often it is because they are overweight, sometimes it is just in their personality.


Orrrrr..... they are not toy motivated. That's when you switch it up and find a different way to play and motivate a dog to loosen him up and get him on his toes and ready to go.

I do not play tug with my dogs because it teaches them to clamp down on things I put my hands on. Yes, I know people teach "out" and it works, but it's a bad thing to teach a dog. 

My dogs are motivated by retrieves, but that's NOT something you can do in group classes or trials - so it's basically not an avenue I go. 

With my guys - I play "gonna-getcha-gotcha" with them. Basically any given moment I will play grab and tag with them and bounce them around. No toys or food needed. 

Re toy carrying - Of my dogs right now, I have a boy who has started carrying toys outside and bringing them in. And that's wanting to have something in his mouth and actually playing with whatever. It's something he didn't do as much as a puppy + his dad never did.... so I'm happy to see it. My boy in my profile pic was the last one I had who was a very happy dog with things in his mouth. The dog in my profile pic was the one who would carry my umbrella for me on walks. We'd be walking for 1-2 hours and he'd carry that umbrella the whole time. I loved it - and am happy to have a golden like that again.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

What kind of training are you doing? Competitive obedience? Hunt training? Agility? "Pet" Obedience (i.e., good manners)? Is he a field line or conformation line dog? Does he like to retrieve? What do you want him to do with the toy? Retrieve it? Play tug? Squeak it? 

If you are just training manners (sit, stay, walk on loose leash, don't jump on people, etc.), you don't really need any reward. If you're doing hunt training, the reward (the retrieve) is built into the activity. If you are teaching competitive obedience, with it's emphasis on precision and focus, you need something to motivate the dog, but it also needs to be something reasonably convenient. My boy's favorite reward is a retrieve. He would retrieve until he literally had a heat stroke. It's a little inconvenient to reward with a retrieve every time I want to reward for a tight about turn or a good transition from normal to slow. I use a mix of treats and retrieves. At trials, he gets treats after a run and, whenever possible, I take him outside for a quick set of retrieves. At some trials, that's not practical and he has to settle for a food reward or a game of tug. 

If you are trying to get your dog to tug, there is a lot of advice in the agility world about that. They like to use tug, since many agility dogs are not natural retrievers, most dogs can learn to like tugging, and you can do it in a small space with the dog on leash. If you are wanting the dog to like the chance to retrieve, you can work on it, but retrieving desire has a strong genetic component.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Above all, don’t forget to train the dog in front of you.

Some dogs will never love their toy as much as they love other reinforcers. Doesn’t hurt to try and see if you can build value for something else, but I (personally) wouldn’t waste that much time on something like that when I have other things I’d rather be working on. 

My oldest (6 years old) has never cared for toys. He plays with them occasionally on his own, and enjoys tug, but not enough to really use as a reinforcer outside of the house. I tried when he was younger to build value for a toy (2ish) but I never got it valuable enough to compare to food. I moved on cause we had more pressing/more important things to work on and I had to ask myself if I really cared that much about what my dog found reinforcing (I did not), especially since food is easier to use in 80% of all settings than a toy. The end result still has to be behavior with no immediate reinforcer anyway, right?

A couple caveats to that, which I guess is just important for full disclosure. Kaizer is my first dog, when he was a puppy I was too busy trying to learn how to train a dog with one reinforcer (food), forget about multiple. Two, by the time he was two, Kaizer had many behavioral issues that needed to be worked on - dog reactivity, resource guarding, sound sensitivity, handling sensitivity, and general fear issues. 

My youngest dog (18 months) has never cared about food. I had to teach her to finish her meals starting from the day she came home at 8 weeks. She’s a picky thing too, she’ll eat the same treat maybe three times and then she’s done. Today, during a training session, she spit out every treat I gave her and wouldn’t take a treat from someone else either. But this girl LOVES her toys and she LOVES any kind of personal interaction/praise. When she was a puppy, I made a conscious effort to use toys or praise as a reinforcer more than/the same amount of times I used food. I’m sure that helped. New set of challenges now too, because I have absolutely no idea how to use a toy effectively in a training session LOL. 

I think I agree that either a dog has it or they don’t. You can absolutely build reinforcers, but how effective it is totally depends on whether or not your dog finds whatever inherently reinforcing. Toys are not inherently reinforcing to my older dog the same way food is not inherently reinforcing to my younger dog. That’s where “training the dog in front of you” becomes important to remember


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Another thought: Are you trying to get your guy to show more enthusiasm for the reward or do you just not want to use food? 

If the former, using food can have a calming effect that you might not be looking for. However, if your dog isn't that crazy about toys or retrieving, you can make food more interesting. Avoid simply pushing the food at him. Give your reward marker ("Yes!" "Nice!" Clicker), whatever. (The RM marks what you want to reward and the dog knows a reward is coming. Never give your reward marker without following up with a reward.) If you are giving food, make him move towards it or, even better, jump up to get it. In some circumstances, you can toss the food for him to chase. 

For example, if you are working on getting him to do an about turn without going wide, lagging, or dropping his head, and he does it correctly, give the RM at that instant, then move the treat in front of and above his head so he has to move faster and hop up to get it. It's more exciting and rewards that push you want in heeling. For a good front, I'll hold the treat up so the dog has to get his forefeet off the ground to get it. If you do a treat toss, be sure the dog can see the treat, like a white piece of cheese on dark mats. Toss a brown treat on to a leaf-covered lawn, and you'll be spending a lot of your training session watching your dog quarter the lawn looking for that treat that they KNOW is there somewhere. (Ask me how I know that.)


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

PalouseDogs said:


> Another thought: Are you trying to get your guy to show more enthusiasm for the reward or do you just not want to use food?
> 
> If the former, using food can have a calming effect that you might not be looking for. However, if your dog isn't that crazy about toys or retrieving, you can make food more interesting. Avoid simply pushing the food at him. Give your reward marker ("Yes!" "Nice!" Clicker), whatever. (The RM marks what you want to reward and the dog knows a reward is coming. Never give your reward marker without following up with a reward.) If you are giving food, make him move towards it or, even better, jump up to get it. In some circumstances, you can toss the food for him to chase.
> 
> For example, if you are working on getting him to do an about turn without going wide, lagging, or dropping his head, and he does it correctly, give the RM at that instant, then move the treat in front of and above his head so he has to move faster and hop up to get it. It's more exciting and rewards that push you want in heeling. For a good front, I'll hold the treat up so the dog has to get his forefeet off the ground to get it. If you do a treat toss, be sure the dog can see the treat, like a white piece of cheese on dark mats. Toss a brown treat on to a leaf-covered lawn, and you'll be spending a lot of your training session watching your dog quarter the lawn looking for that treat that they KNOW is there somewhere. (Ask me how I know that.)


Hi. Trying to wean him off food rewards. I've been observing some dogs who work for toy rewards and wondering if there was a trick with goldens.


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

PalouseDogs said:


> What kind of training are you doing? Competitive obedience? Hunt training? Agility? "Pet" Obedience (i.e., good manners)? Is he a field line or conformation line dog? Does he like to retrieve? What do you want him to do with the toy? Retrieve it? Play tug? Squeak it?
> 
> If you are just training manners (sit, stay, walk on loose leash, don't jump on people, etc.), you don't really need any reward. If you're doing hunt training, the reward (the retrieve) is built into the activity. If you are teaching competitive obedience, with it's emphasis on precision and focus, you need something to motivate the dog, but it also needs to be something reasonably convenient. My boy's favorite reward is a retrieve. He would retrieve until he literally had a heat stroke. It's a little inconvenient to reward with a retrieve every time I want to reward for a tight about turn or a good transition from normal to slow. I use a mix of treats and retrieves. At trials, he gets treats after a run and, whenever possible, I take him outside for a quick set of retrieves. At some trials, that's not practical and he has to settle for a food reward or a game of tug.
> 
> If you are trying to get your dog to tug, there is a lot of advice in the agility world about that. They like to use tug, since many agility dogs are not natural retrievers, most dogs can learn to like tugging, and you can do it in a small space with the dog on leash. If you are wanting the dog to like the chance to retrieve, you can work on it, but retrieving desire has a strong genetic component.


I do see at the end of agility trials - alot of the dogs are rewarded with a game of tug. I suppose in most cases the "game" itself is a sort of reward. But you still have to get them from being untrained to agility champion.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Not that I have any titles to show for it on Eevee yet, but I feel as though I’ve found a pretty good balance between food and toys for her. I started her on toys really early. Like 10 weeks old. Her favorite thing is retrieving a knitted yarn ball that’s about the size of a tennis ball. I use it for working jumps, recalls, stays, heeling, etc. But, it’s not an every rep type of reward. It’s an every 3rd to 5th rep type of reward. And she’ll get to retrieve it a few times before we get back to work.

I also use tugging as a reward and I play with her like she’s a dog, like Kate described. And I don’t do the same thing every training session. I don’t have an exact system for which reward I use when. It makes training fun and it keeps her interested and focused.

I do still use food. I have a bag of Zuke’s sitting on my desk. If I’m teaching something new, I typically start with food. It’s easy to get a lot of reps in a short period of time with food.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

MintChip said:


> Hi. Trying to wean him off food rewards. I've been observing some dogs who work for toy rewards and wondering if there was a trick with goldens.


Most retrievers have a natural desire to retrieve or at least carry stuff around. You need to build on that desire. If you have a good bond with your pup, he or she will react positively to seeing you having fun. Building on the desire to retrieve by making it all fun. I would suggest getting a few canvas or foam retrieving bumpers to start with. 








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They aren't as durable as the plastic bumpers but pups that are just starting will tend to like them more. The are also better for dogs that may be teething. You need to watch for that, teething doesn't bother some dogs at all while others get very sore and need to take a break from retrieving. 
For very small puppies stuffed toys with squeakers in them are great retrieving toys. Making it squeak gets them very excited to chase and retrieve it. 
The first half of the retrieve is easy, running out to get it. Not all pups want to return and give up THEIR prize. That's ok when building the desire. Put a 15 - 20 foot rope on the pups collar so you can grab it and reel him in. Keep it all fun and toss the bumper the instant you take it, instilling the idea that the game continues when they give up the bumper.

You do not need or want treats for this. You are building the idea that the bumper is the ultimate prize and retrieving is the most fun a pup can have. Treats distract from that, the pup needs to retrieve for love of retrieving and to hear you tell him how good he is. The pups focus has to be on you and the bumper, no room for treats.


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