# Not sure how to resolve



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Riot is 5.5 months old. He's doing great except for one thing. He doesn't release the bumper. I have to pry his jaw open every single time. We're working on "hold" and it doesn't appear that "hold" is the issue. My release command is "drop". Here's my process.

I'm right now using a Dokken foam bumper because he doesn't have all his teeth in yet. He doesn't have anymore teeth to lose though. 

I hold the bumper in front of his mouth, he opens and I put the bumper in. He will hold it as long as I ask. But he will not give it up. Also on retrieves same thing. He will not give it up.

In both situations I do praise him while he holds the bumper and make sure not to take it too quickly, especially on a retrieve. As he gets older his jaws are getting stronger. I have not switched to a hard plastic bumper or an obedience dumbbell yet due to his teeth coming in.

What am I doing wrong?


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

When you say "Drop", stick your finger right behind his front, lower incisors into the soft palate below his tongue. A quick jab. Hold the bumper with one hand and poke with the other. He'll spit it out. Do this EVERY time you say "Drop" for about two days, and he'll get it quick.
Yes, it's easy to teach a dog to trade something for a piece of food, but believe me, before long if not now he's going to want the bumper more than food!


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I do the finger thing every time. Every time. I have for a long time now. I never trade food for the bumper. I'm not that coordinated. He's very possessive of his bumpers, still. I'm getting a little tired of it.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

If you are poking him with his finger how is he not giving up the bumper. If a poke doesn't work, stick your finger in the same spot and press it down toward the ground. 

With a high drive pup like this, you're going to need to get a handle on him sooner rather than later.

Do you have a pro you can work with?

Honestly I would quit retrieves with him until his teeth are in, then go right into force fetch. IMO his FF should be a quick process not dragging it out forever like you did with Lucy. He's going to run all over you if you don't get on top of it quick.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Bring him into heel, tell him to hold, toss the next one short, tell him to drop, and send for the next one.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

How did you teach the drop command?


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Yes, you are right.
I do have a pro I work with on Saturdays. We discussed it and he felt that I might be creating too much competition when I do retrieves with another dog around and making him to possessive. He suggested only doing retrieves and FF with no other dogs around. He thought Riot was still in the litter mindset to fight for everything he has to keep it.
And no I don't want to drag it out. I'm making up a calendar and writing down everything we do every day along with a list of everything that needs to get accomplished so we don't skip anything. DH is on board from the beginning this time. He is also wanting to push ahead pretty quickly and get through FF ASAP. It's nice to have DH on board this time, he is a far better animal trainer than I.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

George and Swampcollie, 
I call him to heel, face him outward and line him up as if there is another bumper, like Swampcollie said. But I am not throwing another bumper in order to get him to release. He's quite good at coming into heel on either side. If I call Front, he will Front instead of heel. He has come along so nicely in so many ways. I'll try throwing the next bumper while he's in heel with the first bumper still in his mouth. He's an excitable guy, I'm hoping that will work.


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Alaska7133 said:


> George and Swampcollie,
> I call him to heel, face him outward and line him up as if there is another bumper, like Swampcollie said. But I am not throwing another bumper in order to get him to release. He's quite good at coming into heel on either side. If I call Front, he will Front instead of heel. He has come along so nicely in so many ways. I'll try throwing the next bumper while he's in heel with the first bumper still in his mouth. He's an excitable guy, I'm hoping that will work.


This is just me thinking out loud but i would think that could cause some issues he may start only dropping the bumper if one is thrown right in front of him. This guy sounds smart.

here is what i did with bodey when he was younger. if he didn't want to drop on command i would give him one chance then the next time i would grab some skin right in front of his rear leg and pull up and at the same time commanding drop. (kinda like picking the dog up from the scruff of their neck). didn't take to long before he was dropping on command and if he didn't drop after the first command i would start to bend over and he would then drop. i saw an old bird dog handler do this with his pointers on a quail hunt a few years ago. just something else to maybe try.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> *This is just me thinking out loud but i would think that could cause some issues he may start only dropping the bumper if one is thrown right in front of him. This guy sounds smart.*


The little guy is smart, however he is not through FF and CC yet so your options in dealing with the issue are limited at this point. 

By putting another retrieve in front of him you are creating the opportunity to teach him to release the bumper on command and the opportunity to praise him for doing it right. 

If all else fails you can go back and teach hold and drop via the old Dobbs method.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska


I do not want to be hard on you but it is as I thought. You haven't really TAUGHT a drop command. Instead, you are using gimmicks to get him to give it up. Throwing another bumper has worked for me until I am done with FF. You see, when I do FF every time there is a failure to comply there is an ear pinch. 

When I FF, the word FETCH is supposed to start a behavior chain. This behavior chain includes: take some steps toward the bumper, immediately pick it up, hold, carry it back to me, come to heel, then give me the bumper. The ear pinch can be used for several steps.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'm not sure about using an ear pinch to "drop". I know to ear pinch for "hold". Which I haven't had to ear pinch yet since he's very easy, I know it's coming at some point though.

I'll give him a try again tonight. DH and I will see what works the best. DH is of course different than I in his approach. He's able to separate fun from work better than I am, and make them more distinct categories.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I had someone send me a PM to use a gloved hand for hold and drop. So last night I gave it a try and I think Riot might have begun to understand what drop means. So I think maybe I needed to back up just a little bit, which is a process that I had never used before. So we'll go with the gloved hand until he understands what drop means. Then we can go on from here. Like Anney also suggested, I am not doing any retrieves for now until we have drop finished.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts!!


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Alaska7133 said:


> I had someone send me a PM to use a gloved hand for hold and drop. So last night I gave it a try and I think Riot might have begun to understand what drop means. So I think maybe I needed to back up just a little bit, which is a process that I had never used before. So we'll go with the gloved hand until he understands what drop means. Then we can go on from here. Like Anney also suggested, I am not doing any retrieves for now until we have drop finished.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your thoughts!!


sorry i missed the gloved hand part of this thread but it WORKS!!! for the start of force fetch. 2 sessions with bodey and he had "hold" down with the gloved hand completely different story when it came to a 3in bumper but he is not the size of your average age dog. just ask MOP he is tiny!!! but he is a bottle rocket with 4 legs.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

3 sessions of gloved hand. He had improved quite a bit. So this morning before work I decided to go to a plastic bumper. Darn. He's not ready yet. I need to keep with the gloved hand a little longer. I'm going to up my sessions to 2 times per day. I never would have thought that drop would be so hard to train. I always thought hold would be the big issue. Boy was I wrong. It's great that he has an excellent hold, so at least that part is nice.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Last night I went training with my husband Cody. He's a pretty sharp guy and re-did Lucy's FF a couple of years ago. He grew up training horses for logging, hunting and cutting cattle. So he's pretty good as an animal trainer. So last night he watched me and figured out what I was doing wrong. So much of the difference between women and men training dogs is the tone of our voices. Cody was able to work with Riot and get him on track with drop. It was mainly my ineptness of timing and voice that made the difference. Some day I'll learn how to train dogs... So Cody and I decided that he would get Riot through FF and CC. Cody is very level headed and doesn't get mad. He's also a good planner and good at reading animals. I'm happy I have him to fall back on.

Riot is super smart. I use the Bill Hillmann walk out blinds with all my dogs. Cody hadn't seen Riot in the field yet. He's 5.5 months old now. Last night I ran him on a bunch of walk out blinds and retrieves. I would send him on a retrieve with Cody throwing, then turn Riot and send him on a walk out blind. The walk out was only 25 yards away, so not far. But he had no problems at all switching focus and picking up that blind. He is a lot of fun and should be a great dog. His temperament is wonderful. When he's in the house he's a lap dog watching tv. When he's at the office with us, he's a perfect gentleman. Out in the field he's a crazy dog like he should be! 

P.S. when I say walk out blind, I mean he walks to the pile with me so he knows exactly where the pile is. It is definitely not a cold blind. Plus I put the pile next to a small bush in an open field so it's marked well.


----------

