# Hunt and field training plans for the week of Feb. 26 to March 3



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The days are getting longer (and a bit warmer) so we should all be able to get out and train pretty soon. Even me!

This week I want to get some walking singles in with Tito, trying to encourage him to leave the AOF and head for an old fall so that we can fix that *issue*. Dan said just throw the marks closer and closer together until he feels the need to check out an old fall. 
Also want to do a couple of simple doubles, still working on getting him back in the groove on doubles. 

Hoping to train on Monday with my best training buddy, and on Wednesday with all 4 of us, and on Thursday with Dan. Weather permitting of course!

How about everyone else?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Days getting longer...Check.
The warmer part...Not. 

50 MPH winds and snow and wind chill in the low 20's. We were at 50 degrees yesterday, today we'll be lucky to get to 35! Well, that's the way Southern Oregon weather swings! Needless to say, staying indoors until the nasty wind stops.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> *This week I want to get some walking singles in with Tito, trying to encourage him to leave the AOF and head for an old fall so that we can fix that *issue*. Dan said just throw the marks closer and closer together until he feels the need to check out an old fall.
> Also want to do a couple of simple doubles, still working on getting him back in the groove on doubles. *



Sorry Barb but you CANNOT work on these two issues simultaneously. What you are doing is a collision course of mass confusion for poor Tito. MAKE HIM SUCCESSFUL -- you are setting him up to FAIL.
It is YOUR JOB as a TRAINER to make him SUCCEED.

If he is regularly leaving the AOF it's because you are giving him marks that are too hard for his level. WHY is he leaving the AOF? Address THAT before attempting anything else!
Do NOT give an answer of "he thinks birds are in cover"!!!!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, some of the marks have been very, very hard. Thru huge piles of old scent, behind 2 or 3 ridges so he didn't really see where they went down, behind a tree line, some very challenging stuff. Some of Dan's GRHRCH dogs had trouble with the same marks Tito had trouble with. Tito never left the AOF until we started really ramping up the difficulty of what he's learning and doing. 
So he's doing what Dan says is pretty common, he doesn't find the bird so he goes to see if there's another one at the last place he did find one. Dan says it's up to us to explain to him that there's no other bird there, and that he needs to stay in the AOF until he finds the bird that really is there. He says that Tito is just heading for the old fall because that's what a lot of dogs do. "Gee, I found a bird here a few minutes ago, maybe there's another one here now". He says, "if you think about it, how does the dog know it's not ok to go back to the old fall and check for another bird unless we teach them?"
We talked at length about this last week in training, and Dan's thinking is that, for Tito (not necessarily other dogs), we need a 2 pronged approach. First, we have to let him see for himself a couple of times that there truly is no second bird at the old fall, and secondly, we have to then yell at him to get back to the correct AOF and find the bird. Tito responds well to verbal pressure. Dan says (and I've seen this in obedience as well) that Tito learns fastest if he makes the mistake himself, and then is helped to find the right answer. We had to do it to get him to run blinds competently; he had to see for himself a couple of times that going where HE wanted to got him nowhere (and he got nicked all the way back in, too). But in order to do this, he has to leave the AOF a couple of times. To get him to leave it, we want to throw marks that are really close together, or in-line, etc. I don't feel that I'm explaining this very well.
About the doubles, I should have been more specific! Those wouldn't be part of the same training as trying to get him to leave the AOF. I plan to do, as I did last week, doubles where the memory bird is quite challenging but the go-bird is hand thrown (by me) just a short distance away. Not full doubles. Dan and I did a bunch of those last week, and the T-monster did a good job with them. This would be a separate training session.
Some times we have to set them up to fail in order to teach them how to succeed.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

We had a club training day today. Ran Bonnie first and Breeze last (she is in season, and there were too many young boy dogs there who were not ready for THAT distraction!) Blue lines are the marks, and the orange the blinds. The outside marks were thrown pinched in on the centre mark, in a field where the line was on top of a hill that fell off to the left and down into low scrubby cover. Left hand mark and blind and the long mark all fell in cover--the dogs had to take the cover at an angle at the end of the long mark. Ran both dogs on the marks as singles (Breeze has too much hormone brain to have done it as a multiple). Bonnie needed help at the end of the long mark to get in the cover and dig it out, but Breeze did a nice job on it and gave me two nice blinds--she actually resisted falling down the hill on the righthand blind, which was what happened to most of the other dogs. Marks r-l were about 75, 160, and 70 yards, and the blinds r-l were 95 and 135 yards.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks Shelly, I love your diagrams. What cover are you running in? It's hard to tell from the "photo".
The left hand blind looks tough because of the old marks.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

The triangle of lighter coloured area in the top left of the image is actually scrubby grasses and brush.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> We talked at length about this last week in training, and Dan's thinking is that, for Tito (not necessarily other dogs), we need a 2 pronged approach. First, we have to let him see for himself a couple of times that there truly is no second bird at the old fall, and secondly, we have to then yell at him to get back to the correct AOF and find the bird. Tito responds well to verbal pressure. Dan says (and I've seen this in obedience as well) that Tito learns fastest if he makes the mistake himself, and then is helped to find the right answer. We had to do it to get him to run blinds competently; he had to see for himself a couple of times that going where HE wanted to got him nowhere (and he got nicked all the way back in, too). But in order to do this, he has to leave the AOF a couple of times. To get him to leave it, we want to throw marks that are really close together, or in-line, etc. I don't feel that I'm explaining this very well.


I am kind of with Anney on this one--I would do some drills to teach rather than just try to set him up in hopes of a correction. It might be more productive to teach him to perservere in the AOF first using the Dirt Clod Singles drill. Then you could do a Dirt Clod Doubles drill to deswitch.

Here is how the singles drill works (it was published in Retrievers Online by Dennis Voight a few years back):
1. Have the bird boy throw a bird flat. Send dog. 
2. Repeat the throw but this time throw a dirt clod, corn cob or something that will just blend in with the ground--could be a snowball right now!! The dog needs to go out and hunt and hunt. It is the job of the bird boy to keep the dog in the fall area. When you are satisfied with the length and quality of hunt, radio the bird boy to chuck the bird out *without the dog seeing him do so*. 
3. Repeat the drill with a angle back throw and an angle in throw. 
This is a marking drill. Going to the same fall area multiple times at different angles will teach the concept of staying in a fall area. 

Evan has a version of it for doubles and deswitching--maybe he could post it if he checks in on this thread. But I think the first step is building that willingness to stick it out on a hunt for a single.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Shelly, I do like the idea of the dirt clod drill. I would need a much better bird boy than anyone I have right now (except Dan and his assistants). I may try to explain it to my training partner tomorrow, who thinks just stopping a dog and casting him in another direction isn't fair to the dog.....I can only imagine what he'd think of sending a dog to a bird that isn't there. But I can definitely see the merit in the drill.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

rereading your post, Shelly, I have a question. Is the dirt clod thrown into the same area that he just retrieved the bird from? Am I not then teaching him to return to an old fall, and if he hunts long enough a bird is going to show up?
Or is the dirt clod thrown in a different location?
Thanks.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

It is thrown in the same area because it is a drill about sticking it out with the mark he has SEEN thrown. I know it seems a bit counter-productive as he has returned to old falls where he had previously retrieved a bird, but the difference here is that he has seen a fresh throw, and he now needs to stick it out where he saw that fresh throw. It is about sticking where a bird is SUPPOSED to be. If you were worried about it, I suppose you could do it as Dirt Clod Walking Singles--throw the clod, and have the gunner slip in the bird when he has done a good hunt, gunner walks 30 yards and does it again, and just keep repeating that concept until he is demonstrating more perseverance. Either way it is the gunner's job to keep him in the AOF if his hunt starts to get loose with a little "hey up" or whatever.

That migrating line marking drill that I posted is also good for encouraging stronger hunts as the fall areas remain consistent even though the dogs perspective of them changes. So when they get out there they recognize that this is where the bird should be and start to dog in and hunt tighter, and with everything being repeated from different angles they really do have to commit to hunting on the one they saw go down.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I found Evan's description of it on RTF, this is by Evan on 6-14-2008 (I do see he, too, sets the dog up to make the mistake and then corrects him for doing it). It looks like a really great drill.

*Dirt* *Clod* *Drill* (aka Cow Chip *Drill*, etc.)

This valuable little *drill* has a number of applications depending on the need. I’ll focus on your dog in this explanation, and that is de-switching. A dog prone to switching lacks discipline about diligently hunting a fall to the extent that they will readily leave a hunt to go and hunt another fall.

Keeping in mind the age and developmental level of this dog, we’ll approach the cure on a more advanced level. That will include literally setting him up to commit the foul you have cited as habitual, and then correct it sternly for lasting effects. Bear in mind, this is something you will likely need to do a number of times, reading your dog as you go for the development of a conscience.

D.L. noted that when a dog has been given enough education about his job that he must learn a sense of obligation about doing it to be reliable. I agree with that, and this *drill* is designed to do that.

The first step will be to configure a set of double marks with ample suction away from the go bird. Below is a diagram of a hip pocket double with proportionate distances to give you an idea of how to set them up. Converging marks provide this type of suction, as well. I would say to set yours up so that there is no more than 50 yards between the falls.

The dynamics of the *drill*, as they were originally run, included having your bird boy either throw a large *dirt* *clod* or a cow chip. The object was roughly the size of a bird, and we used enough distance that they couldn’t tell the difference. But, when they got to the fall area, there was no bird. That is because we wanted them to quit the hunt, if they had that proclivity, so we could correct them for it. They would sometimes leave it instantly, finding no mark in the area.

Instruct your bird boy to be ready to slip a bird out into the fall area on your cue. This would happen when the dog left the AOF to go for another mark. You’ll make your correction, and direct your dog back into the fall area to resume the hunt. Try not to get side tracked here about “What do you do if he doesn’t hunt”. We’ll get to that.

The fall area of the go bird should be open ground. There should not be cover in the fall area adequate to hide even a pigeon. When your dog returns to the fall area, the bird will be visible, and retrieving it should be virtually automatic.

Don’t re-run it. Put him up and go run something non-mark related. Come back tomorrow and run another *Dirt* *Clod* *Drill* in another spot, and change the configuration slightly to have a different look for the dog.

As for when to make the correction, let me say this. First, I no longer use *dirt* clods or cow chips. I use the same *drill* dynamics, but we throw birds (ducks), and attach decoy anchor lines to both of them. The distance to the shortest fall (the go bird) is about 75-80 yards, so the bird boy has plenty of time to reel in the bird after the dog is sent. The bird boys retrieve both marks, so the dog isn’t ever rewarded by a switch. 

That allows a more effective application of the *drill* because I allow the dog to complete the switch and establish a hunt in the long fall area. Just as he commits to the hunt, “Toot” – nick – “Toot”, and then “Toot, toot” to direct the dog to come back into the go bird fall area, where the bird boy will have already replaced the fall with a duck that has no line attached to it. This rewards the dog for hunting the fall area of the go bird, in direct opposition to having been corrected in the long fall.

I do not send them for the long mark, where they’ve just received a correction.

In the rare case of a dog hunting so diligently for the go bird that he will not leave it to switch, I instruct my bird boy to be ready to sneak out a bird on my cue, and to do so in a manner that the dog will not see him do it. That is a reward for a diligent hunt. But that rarely occurs.

Dirt Clod Drill - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh, now that sounds like EXACTLY the right thing for Tito. Perfect!! 
Thanks!




sterregold said:


> It is thrown in the same area because it is a drill about sticking it out with the mark he has SEEN thrown. I know it seems a bit counter-productive as he has returned to old falls where he had previously retrieved a bird, but the difference here is that he has seen a fresh throw, and he now needs to stick it out where he saw that fresh throw. It is about sticking where a bird is SUPPOSED to be. *If you were worried about it, I suppose you could do it as Dirt Clod Walking Singles--throw the clod, and slip in the bird when he has done a good hunt, gunner walks 30 yards and does it again, and just keep repeating that concept until he is demonstrating more perseverance.*


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes--that is the doubles drill of Evan's to which I was referring. It is good for the deswitching element. I would still do a singles drill first until the quality of his hunts improves so that you are building up that perserverance--that is the first issue. Once that is good I would do the deswitching version. It is two issues feeding into one problem, and the perserverance issue is the more elementary one that I would work at fixing first. 

Then I would only move onto the more advanced drill once I had spent some time on simple, wide-open doubles to build his confidence on the mechanics of the double. You don't want to set him up with this type of technical concept mark until he is confident on straightforward doubles first. It is really a drill for marking concepts that tempt a dog to bail out for an easier option rather than going as sent. The problem with doing that to a dog who is not confident in their doubles first is that it can actually perpetuate that lack of trust in what they saw--it is a drill for a dog who marks well, but bails out when there is an easier option in the field.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks so much Shelly, this puts it into a nice, logical progression for me. I need to do the walking singles dirt clod drill with him first, so that he learns to build up his perserverance. I really like the walking part because I don't want to encourage him to return to an old fall, I think that might be confusing and counter-productive. He only leaves the AOF on very difficult marks that he doesn't find right away, and I can see that this will help a lot and can be done pretty much anywhere, I don't need to go to an area with difficult factors to do it. 
Then I can do the doubles part. Tito is back to being okay with the concept of running doubles, we worked through that issue I believe. When we thrown pretty straightforward doubles, he does just fine. But just as you said, he marks well but bails out if he thinks there's an easier option in the field.
Perfect!





sterregold said:


> Yes--that is the doubles drill of Evan's to which I was referring. It is good for the deswitching element. I would still do a singles drill first until the quality of his hunts improves so that you are building up that perserverance--that is the first issue. Once that is good I would do the deswitching version. It is two issues feeding into one problem, and the perserverance issue is the more elementary one that I would work at fixing first.
> 
> Then I would only move onto the more advanced drill once I had spent some time on simple, wide-open doubles to build his confidence on the mechanics of the double. You don't want to set him up with this type of technical concept mark until he is confident on straightforward doubles first. It is really a drill for marking concepts that tempt a dog to bail out for an easier option rather than going as sent. The problem with doing that to a dog who is not confident in their doubles first is that it can actually perpetuate that lack of trust in what they saw--it is a drill for a dog who marks well, but bails out when there is an easier option in the field.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

we had a really good training session today, even though it was windy and very cold. It was just my main training partner and me. I didn't want to try the dirt clod drill with Tito with this particular training partner, so we just did some singles of progressive difficulty, none of them spectacularly hard. Just various distances in low to moderate cover, slight rolling ground but not a lot of hills. Tito was marking very well today, so we did a double and a blind, and he nailed all 3. Then another single, and then put him away. Took him back out later, did more singles, another double with a walk up and a blind and a diversion bird on the blind, followed by one more single. Again he did a really nice job, so we called it a day.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Collar conditioning with Tag. We just took a leisurely stroll out in the pasture, lots of distracting cow poop. I would let him get a ways out then give him a HERE command and a low nick on the collar until he turned and started toward me. Didn't take too many times and he was turning quickly. It was a good walk, I got to check fence and CC my Taggie, and he got to eat some poop! Needless to say, no puppy kisses from him tonight!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

come on, I can't be the only one training this week??????

We were supposed to train with some training partners this morning, but they were predicting heavy rains and high winds so we canceled. Sure enough, we woke up to a bright sunny morning! So my husband volunteered to go with me and throw some birds, so since we had the ducks thawed already we went. We started with a bunch of singles, varying between 100 and 200 yards away, and Tito was a markin' FOOL today, he slammed all of them. Then I did a couple of blinds, and they weren't as good as he is capable of. He blew me off a couple of times on the casts, we had an "attitude adjustment" with the collar, and then he did much better.
Then we went to a different field, and I planted some more blinds. He did *ok* on those, blew off a sit whistle when he saw the bird from about 6 feet away from it, and I had to nick him for it. Part of the problem today I think was a 30 mph constant crosswind (we have high wind warnings here today, with gusts over 50 mph). The others were good. Did a few more marks and then a double, he slammed the double which gave me more confidence than I've had in him for a while.
Tomorrow we should head to Dan's, weather looks okay.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

We trained on Sunday, snow on the ground, and Tuesday, cold wind and a bit of rain.

Winter is starting to swing with me on doubles, it's not smooth but it's a start.

I think we are about 200 blinds into our _1,000 blinds to build a solid blind runner_ program.  I have notice that she is fairly solid up to about 80 yards, after that who knows. We have moments of good lines and taking casts, followed by scallops, ping ponging, and losing her at the blind......

The days are getting longer, so here's to hoping it warms up soon so we can get back in the water.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I have been revisiting "field obedience" with Buffy. I see that with training one can always shorten the latency between cue and response. Her obedience is very good but very good can become better. I have been working on field obedience as well as competition obedience. OK, you guessed it---I have been reading my books on behavior and obedience. I am also lucky that my son majored in Psychology. I can bounce my ideas off him.

More intensive training will resume shortly. We have relaxed a bit and have been hunting.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I've been in a funk with my car so not very much training, unfortunately  Man I hate junkyards. But...it looks like I am going to be the new owner of a Honda Element so I'm happy! Going to take it to club training on Saturday, then Sunday group training where we are finally moving to a new location with cover and water. I would love to swim Scout but we'll see what the weather looks like. We had so many nice days in Jan/Feb that felt like spring almost, but today it is snowing. Ugh. I hope it melts this afternoon.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I've been in a funk with my car so not very much training, unfortunately  Man I hate junkyards. But...it looks like I am going to be the new owner of a Honda Element so I'm happy!


Congrats on the new car. 
I'm hoping my 1992 Trooper holds out for a couple years more.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I've been in a funk with my car so not very much training, unfortunately  Man I hate junkyards. But...it looks like I am going to be the new owner of a Honda Element so I'm happy! Going to take it to club training on Saturday, then Sunday group training where we are finally moving to a new location with cover and water. I would love to swim Scout but we'll see what the weather looks like. We had so many nice days in Jan/Feb that felt like spring almost, but today it is snowing. Ugh. I hope it melts this afternoon.


Congratulations on the new ride!

If the pattern holds you should be getting some more snow day after tomorrow (if not sooner). We usually get the weather for your area about two days before you do. Read into that, it's snowing here today!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well it is not showing snow tomorrow so I am going to hold my breath. I think I heard that you want the low to be 30F or higher for at least three days in a row and then the day temp to be warm before swimming them. It looks like it might be that way, with highs in the late 50s approaching 60s this weekend. That's warm enough, right? Our hunt tests start next month!!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I've been in a funk with my car so not very much training, unfortunately  Man I hate junkyards. But...it looks like I am going to be the new owner of a Honda Element so I'm happy! Going to take it to club training on Saturday, then Sunday group training where we are finally moving to a new location with cover and water. I would love to swim Scout but we'll see what the weather looks like. We had so many nice days in Jan/Feb that felt like spring almost, but today it is snowing. Ugh. I hope it melts this afternoon.


Oohh, good doggy vehicle--you can hose it out if you get bird juice in it or if Scout gets good and grubby training!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It's going to be a good car to go duck hunting this fall too! And maybe turkey hunting this spring but can't use the dog for that if I get drawn. And after trying to vacuum the hair out of my old car yesterday--yeah I am excited about the interior of this one! It also has 4wd and abs brakes, something my old car lacked. I probably will get less laughs with it at a hunt test than my wagon


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We went training at Dan's today.
This dog is NEVER going to be ready to run in SH, let alone in 4 weeks. 
Sheeeeeeeeeesh.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

A little late for me to chime in... But we are working on force fetch this week! He's got a gOod hold down and we are working on fetch and fetch to ground


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

After Gunner's marks today I'm wondering if he is going to pass his Jr. tests this weekend. He has been off marks for 2 weeks my training partner bred his female so other than hand thrown and T work he's a little rusty.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> We went training at Dan's today.
> This dog is NEVER going to be ready to run in SH, let alone in 4 weeks.
> Sheeeeeeeeeesh.


Barb, This is all we get? Don't leave us hanging girl.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh it's sort of same old, same old. I guess.
We put his neoprene vest on him and Dan ran him on 2 water blinds. The water was icy cold, it was only 35 degrees out, but Dan said we HAVE to get him in the water if you plan to run those tests. 
We were using live birds. They were across the pond (only about 30 yards across), on the shore, on 2 different angles.
He did AWESOME. Took great lines out, veered off a little, took great whistle sits, perfect casts to each blind, could not have asked for better. Dan and I were high-5-ing, hugging, and doing the happy dance. First time in the water in over 4 months, and he does wonderful totally cold blinds.
Ok, then we set up a land set-up. Walk-up double, short go-bird, about 30 yards, longer memory bird, about 100 yards. Go-bird thrown with a winger, memory bird thrown by Dan. Dan also set up 2 blinds. If you picture the edge of the field, one blind was at about 45 degrees to the line, about 60 yards out, the other one in line with it along the edge of the field, about 80 yards out, and then the mark about 100 yards out with Dan standing along the same edge of the field, but throwing in toward the field.
Ok, he does a great walk-up, picks up the go-bird fine. I send him for the memory bird. He takes off, gets about 80 yards away, and picks up the smell of the farther blind. Heads straight for it, now I have to whistle sit him. I call him all the way back. Dan re-throws a bird, and I send him as a single.
So Dan comes back in and he tells me it was a totally stupid set up to have tried with Tito, because he has such a good nose. He said as soon as I sent him for the second mark of the double he knew what was going to happen. Dumb dumb dumb. Whatever.
So we ran the same set-up from a different part of the field, so that the marks would not fall anywhere near the blinds. Tito just sort of fell apart on the second mark. It was as if he didn't really see it go down (which I know he did) and he just headed out blindly. Dan had to NO him back to the mark.
Then we ran the blinds. They were very tough, very close to each other, and in heavy cover after some cover changes. He did okay on the first one, but on the second one he wanted to go back to the first blind. It took probably 6 or so whistles to get him to the second blind. When he got near enough to see the bird, he ignored a whistle sit, not once but twice, and I had to adjust his attitude about it. 
Should I continue? There's more....
I was really upset about his double, so we moved to a new field and ran another double with him. This time Dan hand-threw the go-bird,about 20 yards away, and we used the winger for the memory bird. I had a weird feeling (still might be part of it) that Tito has a problem with Dan being out in the field, which is why we did it this way. He set the winger so the memory bird would land in short cover, about 50 or 60 yards away. I mean seriously, this was an EASY double. So Tito picked up the go-bird just fine, and then I sent him on the memory bird. He took off in a nice straight line...about 15 feet to the right of the mark, as if he had no clue where it had gone down, and if he hadn't seen it or smelled it when he got next to it he would have just kept going.
I was so frustrated. I mean WTH, this was easy. Seriously easy. He should have nailed it. He NEVER used to have trouble with doubles or even triples. And now for at least a month he's just totally falling apart on doubles.
You can't pass a SH test if you don't mark the bird. Period.
I wanted to cry. I could tell even Dan was pretty unhappy with Tito. 
So here's his take on it. 
There are a couple of things going on. One is handler error. He said that I didn't have Tito lined up right (he was right behind us) and Tito took a perfect line in the direction that I sent him. Since we had just run some difficult blinds, one of which involved some pressure, Tito took off on a perfect line the way I had him lined up rather than heading out for the mark. Next week we're going to have Dan run him on a couple of doubles to see how much of it is me rather than Tito.
Secondly, Tito doesn't seem to be really locking on the bird, he's looking at the whole picture. Now this blows my mind, since he's been marking so well on singles, no matter what we hit him with. Very challenging singles, and he's been slamming them. Bird in mouth singles, heel-backs, heel pivots, no problems. But then on even an easy double, he falls apart.
I swear, I am ready to give up today.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh, should have said Tito was mud from head to toe, so we finished with a very simple water double, more to get him rinsed off than anything else. He had no trouble with it, but the birds were only about 10 yards away from shore, and 90 degrees apart from each other. If he had had trouble with that, I would have had to shoot him (kidding).
On the way back to the clubhouse Dan asked if I wanted to wash him up. I said it was very tempting. He said use his tub and the shampoo was sitting right next to it. 
I had to admit I laughed pretty hard on that one! I thought he meant wash him up as in give up on him!


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> I swear, I am ready to give up today.


Don't give up!!! Tito will get it. We have all been there, multiple times. It will get better and you will be doing happy dances again. 

Riot and I did some T today. He did OK. He had three really good ones, with some popping between those. Here is the main issue that I am having. When he pops, turns and sits, I have a really hard time getting him moving again. If I use pressure, he still won't move. I think it's confusion and he thinks I am correcting him for the sit. So I don't want to up the pressure. I can't even get him to "come". Sometimes this freezing happens when I whistle-sit him as well. I usually just walk up to him then use pressure once he starts moving. Should I just keep doing this? Any other ideas? On FTP, I had put pressure on him right after he started moving, or while he was on the way to the pile. 

Spring break starts tomorrow night!!! WOOOOHOOOO!!!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Spring break???? It's still snowing!

Barb, I think that is the first post in this section where it didn't sound like you had fun. Remember, this is supposed to be fun?!? Take a deep breath and you will work through it. If you and Tito are not ready for the Spring hunt test, what is the worst that can happen? They are not going to cancel Christmas because of it are they? I think that Tito may be reading some kind of vibe from you. You are expecting him to mess up the doubles, hence you create your own destiny. I think it is a good idea to let Dan run him on the next training day to see if it helps.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

DNL2448 said:


> Spring break???? It's still snowing!


Not here! It's beautiful. I think it might have hit 80. (see, if you send me a puppy, he/she will get to train all the time because we have awesome weather! )


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I was so frustrated. I mean WTH, this was easy. Seriously easy. He should have nailed it. He NEVER used to have trouble with doubles or even triples. And now for at least a month he's just totally falling apart on doubles.
> You can't pass a SH test if you don't mark the bird. Period.
> I wanted to cry. I could tell even Dan was pretty unhappy with Tito.


Sounds like a tough day. Trust me, I know the spring tests are approaching fast. My HRC club's spring test is in 8 weeks, at this point I will be working at it and not running Winter in Seasoned. 

So what is your training plan for non Dan days? What drills should you be doing and how often? What kind of marking/blind set-ups, what distance, cover, factors, singles vs double ratio, .....

Two steps forward, one step back. 

I have to tell you, a couple of weeks ago I was training with Andy running a lining drill. About half way thru it his said to me "When was the last time you did your weekly lining drill? Your dog is telling me it has been awhile." Dang, I hate it when Winter tattles on me.

Here's to a better training day tomorrow.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks guys, it was just a rough day. I guess it was the huge high of the water work, followed by the low of his land work that really threw me off.
I was expecting him to NAIL the double, because he had done so well during the week. I was completely floored by what he did. 
I do know that we need to get back to training. We've not done anything except Dan's for several weeks, until the past 2 weeks I've made a serious effort to get out at least once a week. 
Dan told me this week just work on lots more singles, don't worry about how hard they are because he can handle difficult singles with no problem. Then he said maybe one out of 10 times, throw in a short double where the go-bird is just hand thrown by me, and then the memory bird is one of the singles we've been doing.
He said it might be very helpful if I can have someone stand behind me and watch how I'm lining him up, and tell me if he's lined up with the fall. I've been thinking about it, and I wish Dan had run him yesterday at least once so I could see if a big part of the problem really is me. I've spent the past 6 months convincing him that he needs to head EXACTLY where I've got him lined up (he's really taking awesome lines on his blinds) and now I'm telling him that's not the case? 
Also I plan to work on giving him more cues that this is a mark, not a blind. I've been trying to remember to say "where's your mark" and "take it" so he knows it's not a blind, but I may need to say it a couple of times to be sure he's hearing me, he's pretty amped up.
Dan said Tito WANTS the bird. He's not just running around the field, he's not blowing me off. He really wants to get it. So pressure is not the answer, which is in keeping with what I had felt, too. 
Oh, and IF I can get my "good" bird boy out on Tuesday, we're going to introduce the dirt clod drill!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I think the pull-in on the first double may have contributed to the issues. While he was making a "mistake" in honouring his nose and veering off to the blind, it was a temptation he does not have the tools or experience to deal with. So he got two messages there which could then carry over into the rest of his work--don't use and believe your nose, and you don't really know where that memory bird is.

You need to do some rebuilding by doing some confidence doubles without blinds or other scent disctractions in the field. We always make the memory bird more memorable by making it have the most excitment--it gets a duck call, shot on throw and the live gunner. Let the dog focus on the mark and absorb it before throwing the go-bird. The go bird can be mechanically thrown with just a quack from the release mechanism. When he returns, cue him on that memory bird (I hope you have been teaching him cues!) Align your toes with where the mark landed--ask "Where's your bird" when he returns before you take the go bird, and give him a "good" or "yes" or whatever cue you use when he locks on it. Then take the bird and send him when he tells you he is locked on again(some dogs are ready to roll drop their head, others hold their breath). If he needs help, have the live gunner help--that is one of the reasons you put the gunner on the memory bird--they can draw the dog's attention to the mark and keep them where they need to be. Do not call in or yell NO or any of that stuff right now--he needs to believe he can do it!

Will post another about what you can do to deal with scent.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

On the dealing with the scent/suction issue I would do a Four-Phase drill to start to teach him to deal with those factors in the field. It is not fair to expect him to deal with those factors in a cold blind without teaching it first.

Here is a good example of it KwickLab

As for the Backwater test, I agree that you may need to seriously reconsider entering it with these issues popping up so often--he is just not reliable enough yet, and while the blinds are outside the marks in Senior, the suction of scent, old falls, etc could still be a factor in either marks or blinds.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Can I come live with you for a while?? I am printing out your post and memorizing it, it's exactly what we need, and I know it.
And as I thought about it yesterday, I am 1000% percent sure you are right about what happened. I even sent my training partner the following email earlier this morning:

"....Dan also set up 2 blinds for Tito, along the edge of the field. 
So I send him on the memory mark, and he gets near the second blind and is down wind of the (live) bird. His head SHOOTS up and he heads for the blind. 
So I whistle sit him, and call him all the way back in. He can't figure out what he did wrong and why he's getting called back. Then Dan throws the bird again, and I send him on it as a single.
Dan comes back in, and tells me that was the dumbest thing he (Dan) has done in weeks, setting up that way for Tito. He said he should have known he would head right for the blind, with the fairly strong wind and his nose. 
So when we set up the next double immediately after that, Tito fell apart on the second bird. He didn't understand what happened just a few minutes ago, when he no doubt thought he was getting a big correction by being called back. So he had no confidence at all on the double, especially with Dan standing right there by the bird. He just fell apart on doubles for the rest of the day (we only did 1 more). 
So we will need to build his confidence back up now. We had JUST gotten him back where I thought he was showing some confidence on doubles, and now this happened. 
That makes sense to me. Tito is very sensitive to being corrected like that, he found what he thought was "the bird", got whistled to sit, then got called all the way back which to him is big time pressure. He had no idea what he did wrong, so on the next 2 he just "played it safe" and headed out on the line I gave him, without trying to find the bird himself..."



sterregold said:


> I think the pull-in on the first double may have contributed to the issues. While he was making a "mistake" in honouring his nose and veering off to the blind, it was a temptation he does not have the tools or experience to deal with. So he got two messages there which could then carry over into the rest of his work--don't use and believe your nose, and you don't really know where that memory bird is.
> 
> You need to do some rebuilding by doing some confidence doubles without blinds or other scent disctractions in the field. We always make the memory bird more memorable by making it have the most excitment--it gets a duck call, shot on throw and the live gunner. Let the dog focus on the mark and absorb it before throwing the go-bird. The go bird can be mechanically thrown with just a quack from the release mechanism. When he returns, cue him on that memory bird (I hope you have been teaching him cues!) Align your toes with where the mark landed--ask "Where's your bird" when he returns before you take the go bird, and give him a "good" or "yes" or whatever cue you use when he locks on it. Then take the bird and send him when he tells you he is locked on again(some dogs are ready to roll drop their head, others hold their breath). If he needs help, have the live gunner help--that is one of the reasons you put the gunner on the memory bird--they can draw the dog's attention to the mark and keep them where they need to be. Do not call in or yell NO or any of that stuff right now--he needs to believe he can do it!
> 
> Will post another about what you can do to deal with scent.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I am going to wait until the last day to enter, which I believe is March 21. If you had asked me before yesterday, I would have said he was ready. Now yesterday we had a melt-down, so I'm not so sure. 
I have almost 3 weeks to decide. 





sterregold said:


> On the dealing with the scent/suction issue I would do a Four-Phase drill to start to teach him to deal with those factors in the field. It is not fair to expect him to deal with those factors in a cold blind without teaching it first.
> 
> Here is a good example of it KwickLab
> 
> As for the Backwater test, I agree that you may need to seriously reconsider entering it with these issues popping up so often--he is just not reliable enough yet, and while the blinds are outside the marks in Senior, the suction of scent, old falls, etc could still be a factor in either marks or blinds.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Oh, and IF I can get my "good" bird boy out on Tuesday, we're going to introduce the dirt clod drill!


Ok, so you train with Dan once a week and your good training partner once a week. Any reason you can't train at home once a week by yourself? It looked in pictures you have posted before that you have a pretty big "yard". Is it big enough to do lining drills, do you have a memory blind set in it? The drill that Shelly posted looks great for a girl that has a winger. So the grass is short and it would be easy for him, part of Senior work is building confidence and getting that common langage between you.
Pep talk is now over.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The main problem I have with training at home is that I work too many hours...sigh....but now that it will start staying lighter, later I think I will be able to get out at home, too.
Pep talk was badly needed


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Hey all, I need some advice... I feel like I've hit a roadblock. We are following the smart works system and we are working on fetch with the ear pinch. Remy has always been very sensitive to correction from me (except the e collar) and last night when we tried the ear pinch for the first time he broke down, clamped his mouth shut, and tried to show me his belly. I understand that he is a sensitive dog and I felt like I was doing more harm than good so I ended the exercise. Now I'm worried that we will never get past this step . He has so much potential... But is so scared of this ear pinch...


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

ashleylp said:


> Hey all, I need some advice... I feel like I've hit a roadblock. We are following the smart works system and we are working on fetch with the ear pinch. Remy has always been very sensitive to correction from me (except the e collar) and last night when we tried the ear pinch for the first time he broke down, clamped his mouth shut, and tried to show me his belly. I understand that he is a sensitive dog and I felt like I was doing more harm than good so I ended the exercise. Now I'm worried that we will never get past this step . He has so much potential... But is so scared of this ear pinch...


Clamming is a common response; some dogs just require that you persist until they comply, other dogs need you to show them what to do by opening their mouth and popping the bumper in. I often start this step on a grooming table so that the dog is in a controlled position. Have you taught hold yet so that he understands that having and holding the dowel/bumper is a good thing?


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

May not be he is scared of it. Just doesn't understand what it means. You have also entered the part of FF that is unpleasant but is the base of what you will be doing next. You cannot give up and let him win. Back up and get hold solid then go forward.



> so that he understands that having and holding the dowel/bumper is a good thing?


What Sterre said!!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Don't give up on Tito he's a great dog and he will get there!


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

He understands hold quite well... During hold training though I constantly had to open his mouth tO place the bumper, he's not eager to take. Now that we are on fetch he seems to really be resisting. I was thinking about switching to a paint roller... I've heard that's an unnecessary step (paint roller to bumper) but maybe he'd be more willing to take it? I will not give in to him any more... Now I just have to work on my energy. I started to get frustrated last night and I'm sure that doesn't help.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

You must remain calm. Also, keep you commands even and don't let the frustration come through. Tag, the first couple sessions, would throw his head back behind my leg. I started standing behind him with one of my feet one either side of him, kinda bracing him in position, so it was harder for him to avoid the bumper. Be patient, and work through it. Keep the sessions short and always end on success.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks Lisa. Now that I read what Shelly wrote, I understand completely what happened and why, and it was NOT HIS FAULT. It was mine, and it was Dan's. We destroyed his already fragile confidence on doubles, and now I need to rebuild it. 
Tito is a good boy. His handler needs work.




GoldenSail said:


> Don't give up on Tito he's a great dog and he will get there!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> The main problem I have with training at home is that I work too many hours...sigh....but now that it will start staying lighter, later I think I will be able to get out at home, too.
> Pep talk was badly needed


Some more pep talk with constructive criticism here.

One of the toughest things with moving into advanced work with your first dog is recognizing whether you have been systematic in your training or not. I think I have brought this up before, and I don't want to seem like I am harping on it, but I will anyhow because it is important.  When we are doing drills etc in order to "put out fires" it is an indication that teaching has not been sequential and progressive enough. Yes, dogs are going to run into problems in training, but they should be ones we expect to address in the sequential element of skills development we are working on. 

I am going to attach a few PDFs here:

1. the Lardy flowchart--it shows the sequential development of skills. The dogs progress through these phases in their training for a reason--each skill builds on the next. He follows this sequence because it works to build REALLY GOOD retrievers. He has built it on the system that Rex Carr developed that Rex also found to build REALLY GOOD retrievers. Pretty much all of the formal systems follow this same principle, based on Rex's work just with slight nuances in sequence and methodology, because it works! You could turn this into a checklist like the next document so you can keep track of what you have been teaching.

2. A sample of the skills chart I use to track what I have been working to teach my dogs. It corresponds to the bottom band on the Lardy chart--the other building blocks go in place before we get into this stuff It includes both marking and blind concepts that I teach first. For the blinds, new concepts are generally introduced on a pattern blind, and then when I move it to a cold blind situation I do 3-peats. There are other concepts you could add to the chart, but it gives an idea of all of the tricky factors and concepts a dog may have to deal with in a test--I want them doing these things in training before running Senior, even though you will not see some of them at that level--but if the dog is confident with those complexities, then they should be underwhelmed by anything they see in a Senior test.

3. ABC drill diagram from Lardy--this drill really works to teach the dog some of those complex marking concepts.

4. Orgnized confusion drill diagram from Lardy--this drill builds on ABC but really requires the dog to build focus on where the mark fell because of the gunner movement.

Here is a link to Mike Lardy's site. He shares quite a bit of information here. The collection of articles that is references is a really worthwhile buy. http://www.totalretriever.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=31&Itemid=100


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

mlopez said:


> Don't give up!!! Tito will get it. We have all been there, multiple times. It will get better and you will be doing happy dances again.
> 
> Riot and I did some T today. He did OK. He had three really good ones, with some popping between those. Here is the main issue that I am having. When he pops, turns and sits, I have a really hard time getting him moving again. If I use pressure, he still won't move. I think it's confusion and he thinks I am correcting him for the sit. So I don't want to up the pressure. I can't even get him to "come". Sometimes this freezing happens when I whistle-sit him as well. I usually just walk up to him then use pressure once he starts moving. Should I just keep doing this? Any other ideas? On FTP, I had put pressure on him right after he started moving, or while he was on the way to the pile.
> 
> Spring break starts tomorrow night!!! WOOOOHOOOO!!!


Marie, proximity is also pressure, so if the collar pressure seems counter productive you could also step towards him as you give that back cast. Your forward movement can serve to put pressure on him to move as well. I would also be looking for a "tell" on the pop so that you can give a verbal back before he can fully engage in it.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow, Shelly, that is awesome information. Even though I am not there yet, I will keep this post and the PDFs on hand for when I am. Thank you, I wish I could clone you and have you be my neighbor, your posts are so helpful and insightful!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

sterregold said:


> Marie, proximity is also pressure, so if the collar pressure seems counter productive you could also step towards him as you give that back cast. Your forward movement can serve to put pressure on him to move as well. I would also be looking for a "tell" on the pop so that you can give a verbal back before he can fully engage in it.


Yes, this is what I have been taught. Walk directly at the dog with purpose, using your body moving toward them to push them back. You also are saying back and giving arm signal. I was told if I think she is confused I could switch to saying fetch, because "your dog at this point knows what fetch means" and then phase back to saying back. 
I too will use a verbal "back" when I see that lost of momentum. It seems to bolster confidence and keeps them going back.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks, Shelly, for the pep talk and constructive criticism. It's ALWAYS welcome.
I can't open PDF files on the computer that I'm on right now, I have to open them tomorrow but I'm looking forward to them!


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

ashleylp said:


> Hey all, I need some advice... I feel like I've hit a roadblock. We are following the smart works system and we are working on fetch with the ear pinch. Remy has always been very sensitive to correction from me (except the e collar) and last night when we tried the ear pinch for the first time he broke down, clamped his mouth shut, and tried to show me his belly. I understand that he is a sensitive dog and I felt like I was doing more harm than good so I ended the exercise. Now I'm worried that we will never get past this step . He has so much potential... But is so scared of this ear pinch...


Have you force fetched a dog before? Have you seen anyone do it before? If not, I HIGHLY recommend that you get professional help. FF is a powerful tool, but it can easily ruin a dog if done the wrong way.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

One of the guys in my club has had quite a few master hunters and is very skilled. He showed me how to do all of this so I feel capable of doing it on my own... I figured Remy would react this way to it. Tonight I allowed my boyfriend to take the reins and do the ear pinch fetch drill and Remy did MUCH MUCH better. Still a bit hesitant, but much better overall. I think it's just going to take time for him to get comfortable with it....


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Extremely high winds here today. Goldk-9 and I are supposed to go training--I think we may have to work on crosswind concepts!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I was able to open the PDF files today, thanks Shelly. The advanced skills flowchart is especially helpful to me right now!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Well, we trained but holy cow was it windy. The wingers at the third mark kept getting blown over, and at one point Bonnie and I actually got blown off the little knoll where she was honouring!! But we managed to run three series of three marks and three blinds for the big dogs, Breeze and Tex, and three series of three marks for Bonnie--got a good steadiness correction on her--which was also good practice for Tex! Would have loved to have fun it from one more station all the way at the top of the image, but the wind was just too strong and in your face to do that today. Still we managed to get the dogs running behind guns, under the arc of marks, crosswind, and holding a sidehill on the marks, and past a mark, behind a gun station, and under the arc of a mark on the blinds.

Here are the series in sequence--orange line are the blind, white the throw for the marks, and other colour the marks. Shown from each successive line, and then cumulatively. shortest mark was 56 yards, and longest 166. Shortest blind was 77 yards, and longest was 155.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

reading the advanced skills flowchart...what are goalposts?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> reading the advanced skills flowchart...what are goalposts?


A set of obstacles that you want to put the dog between on the blind--on land it could be two trees or shrubs, or fence posts, or a gap in a bunch of decoys. On water it could be a gap in the tules, or two rocks or islands, or the entry to a channel after crossing open water. A lot of dogs will view such as an obstacle and either flare it and get into trouble, or ping pong between them. So, teaching a dog to take such an opening and drive straight through it is important.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Shelly thanks for the individual setups and then the combined. I totally get it now.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

We had lots of fun today at club training! I ran the three marks as singles in prep for our hunt tests next month. The first station I ran was the live flier (pigeon) and we had a handler issue. I had a test situation in my mind and kept thinking the judge was going to say dog. He didn't, he said '18' and when he said that I said dog. Well, that totally screwed Scout up because she started to take off then stopped to correct herself. I've worked on steadying and saying various words, including dog. So I called her back and re-sent without throwing it again. This caused her to put up a long and wide search. She found it and brought it back, but I cut it out of the video because it was a long search of bouncing golden. Completely my fault though.

And I have a video! Boy I love my new Iphone  I am decently happy with how she handled the blind. I didn't want to screw it up and make a laughing stock of ourselves for our first blind at training days so I walked up on it. I was told that I am still too slow on the whistle. *sigh* Learning curve for me. She was the only golden but got lots of comments on how pretty she is. Can't wait for the next one in two weeks and we will be using ducks for live fliers.






There was also a really young kid there who ran this black lab (I would guess 8 or younger??). It was very cute to watch and so nice to see a dog that could be heeled to the line by a kid under control and very calm, then turn around and have some get up and go when sent for marks.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks for the explanation Shelly. Makes sense. 
great video Lisa!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Scout is beautiful, great video!


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