# Puppy conformation critique



## nolefan

Welcome to the forum... I am not knowledgeable about conformation (still trying to learn), I'm sure someone will see this who might comment. I thought that puppies tend to have a small window around 7 or 8 weeks where they are best evaluated and then after that they start growing and it's not really fair to judge??? Are you the breeder?


----------



## Megora

Need to post where you intend to show her too.


----------



## nutmeg0873

Sure, I have a shot of her at 7 and a half weeks here. I intend go show her in NC, SC, and VA. A friend is the breeder. I may become the owner


----------



## Prism Goldens

Her topline is holding up- she's lovely. It's nice to see a then and now photo set.
I think her earset is off but you can train her to show them, which will make them appear to be where they should.
I can't tell if her feet are correct or not, both photos they look harelike instead of catlike but that might be the grooming.
Her tailset is correct. It looks like she has a nice prosternum. Both photos show what looks like upright shoulders but that may be her hair too...


----------



## nutmeg0873

Thank you so much for your thoughtful critique. I also noted the ear set. But I missed the shoulder angle. I will try to note that. I have a headshot of this pup to share. 

I also have a picture of her two sisters. Is there anything about these pups that you find significantly advantageous in terms of conformation ? I am sorry, I cannot find their 7 week photos. They are almost 12 weeks here. We can call them puppy #1 (listed in the first post) and puppy #2 and #3 listed here for simplicity in critiquing their conformation.


----------



## Goldens&Friesians

Hi! Sorry, but I can't give you much help as far as conformation either. I'm hoping in here so I can get any updates on this thread because I would LOVE to try conformation someday! I figure the more I can learn now the better! All I know is that I've had a couple breeders tell me that my girl April (in my picture below) would have easily won her CH had I shown her. Unfortunately, I never got to show her (even though that was my intention) because she got pyometra at an unusually young age and I chose to have her spayed to cure it. So I tend to kind of compare dogs to April and see if they look like her, but I know there is a lot more to it than that! Thanks for posting this thread though! Its so interesting!


----------



## LJack

I also would ask what organization you want to show in. 
Assuming no DQ issues with bite or size any of these puppies will title in the IABCA\ICE international shows. UKC it would depend on the caliber of competition but I think they could do it. If you are talking AKC, I would be hesitant especially if you are planing to show yourself. AKC is just sooooo much more competitive and difficult. 

To give you an idea, my girls won the International Championship in one day, the UKC Championship in 4 shows (2 shows each day), Jinx took 2.5 years to earn her AKC Championship and Tilt has been working on hers for about 2 years now and we are not done. 

Are either of the parents Championed in the venue you want to show in?

Also, color will be a disadvantage in AKC shows it might cause some disadvantage in UKC too. Extreamly ligh color is penalized so, in order to win your dog has to be so much better than every other dog competing that even with the color penalty, they should be the winner. Competition is so fierce and so close in AKC that does not happen very often.


----------



## LJack

On the first girl, she does seem to be holding her top line well. Actually I like it more now than at 7 weeks when she was showing a slope. Hopefully she retains that levelness. The tail set is also nice. She seems like she has a nice amount of stop as well.

I have drawn a few lines for evaluation. They could be off as it is difficult to evaluate perfectly from a photo. 

First the line drawn from her prosternum to the point of the buttock. There is more of her above this line than below. Ideally she would be equal parts above and below. 

Pink and purple lines. I am also seeing straight shoulder angulation. I think it is real since in both pictures you can see a dip and roll in the neck to should transition (in purple). Also, and this I would have to see in person to know for sure but she looks like her elbow is below her rib cage. I think it is accurate since she seems a little light in the lower half of her body. 

On her rear, and this is nitpicking, I would like to see the line hit a little less of her toe. But since she is straighter in the front, this is more balanced that if she had more rear. 

I am also seeing flat toes. I can't tell so, you will want to look at foot placement for toeing out. The front on sitting puppy (I am not sure who that is) shows a slight twist in the pastern her left front.


----------



## LJack

Remember, there is no perfect dog.
As you can see my girl below also has a straighter shoulder than I would like. I think this is the reason we have been Reseve to a major twice and not the actual winner.

Also for the picture her rear leg was not quite perpendicular so the purple line would just touch her toes.


----------



## Prism Goldens

I would love to know how to 'write on' pictures! THanks for doing that, it shows what I was seeing too. I do think of the three, she is the best (or was, at the earliest age you have photos)


----------



## Rilelen

LJack, thanks for the diagrams! I'm not in conformation, but that was really interesting - nice to see some of the things I hear about explained so concisely.


----------



## nutmeg0873

Thank you for the input, especially from 
Ljack. This was very helpful. Both of the parents have championships, numerous actually, but they are European championships so they are judged to a bit different standard than here. 

I can see that in looking at pups, you look at the angles. The individual parts may change as the pups grow but the angles and overall balance will likely remain the same, correct?

Honestly I would like to compete just for fun. If we are only competitive at the UKC shows, that is ok. I also just want to pick a correctly conformed dog as she will likely have better use of her body longterm.


----------



## LJack

Prism Goldens said:


> I would love to know how to 'write on' pictures! THanks for doing that, it shows what I was seeing too. I do think of the three, she is the best (or was, at the earliest age you have photos)


I am using an iPad app called You Doodle. It is not the easiest, but it works and it's free.


----------



## LJack

nutmeg0873 said:


> I can see that in looking at pups, you look at the angles. The individual parts may change as the pups grow but the angles and overall balance will likely remain the same, correct?


Everythig can change as a puppy grows. They are as close to their adult form at 7 to 8 weeks old as they ever are. So what you see then is what you will see as an adult. If they had big ears as a puppy at 7 to 8 weeks old they will have big ears as an adult. If they had great angulation at 7 to 8 weeks old they will have that as an adult. That's why the 7 to 8 week old picture is so important.


----------



## nolefan

Good thread and thank you to you all for taking time to explain. I am fascinated as I learn at how structure is so connected and dependent on each other, that one angle being off sort of has a domino effect. 

LJack, Prism, maybe you all could suggest some reading sources for the OP? I'd love to hear them too


----------



## hotel4dogs

Applause applause! You are someone who "gets it"!
So many people say that they don't care about the dog's conformation because they don't plan to show the dog. They are missing the point of the breed standard! As someone who has had both dogs with good conformation and a dog with horrible conformation, I can say the difference is huge in their quality of life when they get old!



nutmeg0873 said:


> Honestly I would like to compete just for fun. If we are only competitive at the UKC shows, that is ok. I also just want to pick a correctly conformed dog as she will likely have better use of her body longterm.


----------



## Christen113

This was a really good demonstration/drawing/explanation!!


----------



## LJack

nolefan said:


> LJack, Prism, maybe you all could suggest some reading sources for the OP? I'd love to hear them too


I am still learning myself. I have an advantage since my mom is a breeder. I have been getting to help with her puppy evaluations for a few years now. I also have been asked by other breeders to help with theirs. I am also not shy about asking to get my hands on a dog I like. You really learn the most hands on and with input from other good/master breeders, handler or judges. The CCA is an excellent way to do this with your own dog. 

So I pulled my stuff off the shelf and here it is.

Videos 

The Golden Retriever 
Structure, movement and use (purchased through GRCA)
By Rachel Page Elliott

Dogsteps
What to look for in a dog
By Rachel Page Elliott

Puppy Puzzle
The Hastings approach to evaluating the structural quality of puppies
Dogfolk enterprises - Pat Hastings

Books

Dogsteps
A new look
By Rachel Page Elliott

Another piece of the puzzle: Puppy Development
Pat Hastings and Erin Ann Rouse, editors

An Eye For A Dog
Illustrated Guide to Judging Purebred Dogs
By Robert W Cole


----------



## Prism Goldens

I treasure 'An Eye for a Dog' and 'Dogsteps' and you could probably get both (and all the ones listed above for that matter) from Amazon, used. 

Lots of hands on. Even w non-purebred dogs. You can learn so much watching movement and putting your hands on them, finding parts and understanding how they work together. A judge said to me one morning that he could find good movement and expression at the dog pound- he looks for breed type only in the ring (not that I've observed that to be true of him, since I think he also looks for his buddies on the end of the lead, lol!) but once he said that, I started watching mixed breeds and found it to be a true statement. My daughter has a train wreck of a mixed breed, and it shows in all his parts and his movement how very wrong his conformation is. At the same time, my neighbor has a very poor example of a purebred dog and type- almost certainly from a garage breeder- and that dog's parts work together to make lovely movement and usage of his body. He is never out of place, his feet are a beautiful thing to watch I just try not to look at his super ugly head!


----------



## nutmeg0873

Great resources and input. Thank you everyone! I will purchase some books. 

As a vet I see far too many cruciate ligament injuries that I believe are in part due to poor angulation in the stifle (too straight ) compounded by a general lack of fitness /condition. I would like to avoid that! And also have a healthy dog that is able to engage in any number of athletic pursuits. 

Is there anything that seems advantageous about the conformation on this girl? Sorry, I do not have her 7 week picture. She is 12 weeks here. I see perhaps a better shoulder angle?


----------



## LJack

I agree with Robin that the first girl you posted is the best of the three. 

I don't really want to publicly pick this puppy apart so, I am not going to post an edited picture. On the standard picture you can see that same dip and roll in the neck to shoulder transition. Also, she has quite a bit of slope to her croup. Lastly she has a taller hock than her sister and it is not as straight looking either.


----------



## cubbysan

LJack said:


> On the first girl, she does seem to be holding her top line well. Actually I like it more now than at 7 weeks when she was showing a slope. Hopefully she retains that levelness. The tail set is also nice. She seems like she has a nice amount of stop as well.
> 
> I have drawn a few lines for evaluation. They could be off as it is difficult to evaluate perfectly from a photo.
> 
> First the line drawn from her prosternum to the point of the buttock. There is more of her above this line than below. Ideally she would be equal parts above and below.
> 
> Pink and purple lines. I am also seeing straight shoulder angulation. I think it is real since in both pictures you can see a dip and roll in the neck to should transition (in purple). Also, and this I would have to see in person to know for sure but she looks like her elbow is below her rib cage. I think it is accurate since she seems a little light in the lower half of her body.
> 
> On her rear, and this is nitpicking, I would like to see the line hit a little less of her toe. But since she is straighter in the front, this is more balanced that if she had more rear.
> 
> I am also seeing flat toes. I can't tell so, you will want to look at foot placement for toeing out. The front on sitting puppy (I am not sure who that is) shows a slight twist in the pastern her left front.




Thank you for posting this picture. The day I saw this, I took a picture of Sailor stacked, and drew the lines - I was finally able to "see" her posting when I stacked her. It had been a problem that I had, and was unable to see it in the mirror. My breeder kept correcting me, but I could not see it happening myself, until I saw that picture. Now I can see myself properly stacking her in the mirror, and I know where her feet are supposed to go I am above her stacking her. My breeder has not complained of her posting since - in class or in the ring! 

Now I have to concentrate on putting her on her toes.


----------



## Ljilly28

http://rufflyspeaking.net/what-is-a-sound-dog This is a favorite article of mine about conformation. Growing up in horses, I agree with Barb that the truest pleasure of sound conformation is that in old age a dog or horse moves freely over a green lawn, and enjoys last years with less pain. My beautiful elder with a very long loin had back problems for example with all that unsupported spine whereas my cobby short-bodied dog in a past generation had that benefit of a short loin and well sprung rib cage- never any pain even past 15 years old.


----------



## mmantes

Hello all! I thought you might like to see how the pup I chose is turning out! Devon is now nearly 8 months and is the pup in the first photo I posted.


----------

