# When to spay



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

The breeder said to wait until 18 - 24 months before having my girl spayed. I've read all the material about spaying early and seems very logical that development could be impaired by spaying too early.

I have one vet that also believes this logic. At our last vet visit we saw someone else in the same practice. She said there is a large debate over this as waiting makes them more inclined to have cancer.

I also read that spaying too early causes them to grow taller. I have friends that purchased a puppy and had her spayed at 5 months. While she is a very sweet and beautiful dog she is very lanky. While at an obedience competition I saw what looked to be a litter mate... very distinctive facial/head. Introduced myself and sure enough it was a litter mate. This girl was still in tact and about 3 in. shorter, more balanced looking. Not sure this confirms what I read or just the difference between two puppies.

I have always done rescue and the policy in that venue is to spay/neuter as soon as possible. I spayed my last gold soon after I got her, she was already a year old. As soon as I did her hair started to change on her thighs. It was like puppy fuzz and never did go back to the gorgeous silky coat she had before the surgery.

So.... we are at 6 months and know this decision needs to be made. Anyone want to weigh in on this? The breeder has made it quite clear she is not interested so that is a non factor. I want to do what is best for Sipsy.

Advice would be welcome.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

What are your goals for Sipsy? If I remember correctly you were looking to do more than just have her be your family pet. If so I really would consider waiting to spay her.

Chris Zink DVM http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf

She has done a lot of study on this. Some of the bones may not close until the 18 month mark. If you do a search on the forum with Chris Zink's name I think there is a very interesting thread.

Dr. Zink is in canine sports medicine so her experience seems to be cutting edge on the subject. 

Sipsy didn't have the best healthy start as a pup and you have seen her personality changing recently she may surprise you.


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

We like to wait. 
We tend to like to let the dog mature with all its pieces parts like nature intended. Also, we like to wait because that is what our friends do that have been showing and breeding Goldens for many years. Our current crew - Barkley was I think almost two before he was neutered, Pebbles hasn't been spayed yet and she will be 5 in February, and we will wait on having Sandy spayed. Sandy is 6 months old.
Can't say that is right or wrong though.

Our first female Golden, Nellie, was spayed early. She lived to 14+ (she had pigmentary uveitis - GRU - and nasal cancer when she died). 
Henry, our first male Golden, was neutered very early, he died at 8 from osteosarcoma.

Seems you can't win. There are pluses and minuses to both. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer although _I think_, in the Golden community, the general consensus is to wait these days.

If you spay/neuter *early*, you have a higher chance of [add whatever health problem here].
If you spay/neuter *later*, you have a higher chance of [add whatever health problem here]. 


http://cvgrc.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Deciding-Whether-When-to-Neuter.pdf


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

With females waiting until after one has shown a indication that cancer is increased. But doing it earlier before plates are closed increases ACL tears. Chloe was spayed at six months after a long debate in our family.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Good point, I do plan on doing obedience as well as other activities. Her health is my first and only concern. The input from the 2nd vet is what started me to question the decision to wait. It makes total sense to develop correctly you need all the body parts to let the body grow the way nature intended. As I don't have a desire to breed the concern for cancer made me question waiting. 

I've never had to make this decision before. In the world of rescue the goal is to reduce the amount of puppies in the world. My other two goldens were older and the breeder requested they be spayed as they were both over 18 months. My last dog had just turned 5 when I lost her to renal failure, there are no guarantees.

I want to give Sipsy the chance to grow into the beautiful dog I know she will be. Think I will postpone this decision for a couple of years. Thanks for the advice.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

With a female I would rather deal with a ACL tear then a increase chance of lymphoma or hemangisarcoma.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Cpc1972 said:


> With a female I would rather deal with a ACL tear then a increase chance of lymphoma or hemangisarcoma.


But that is YOUR choice for your dog. The OP would like to compete in agility, if I remember correctly. The odds of a performance dog getting an ACL tear doing all that jumping and turning is probably much higher than your average house dog. You have to look at all the variables for the individual dog. It's not one size fits all.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

ArchersMom said:


> But that is YOUR choice for your dog. The OP would like to compete in agility, if I remember correctly. The odds of a performance dog getting an ACL tear doing all that jumping and turning is probably much higher than your average house dog. You have to look at all the variables for the individual dog. It's not one size fits all.


I agree with that. That is the process of thinking that had us go ahead and spay at six months. It's a personal decision.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

We're waiting one cycle. Or longer, I am not sure. We're not planning on doing any type of agility, but I would like to give her a good chance. I do run, a lot, and I would like to include her in this when she is older and everything is developed as should be. 


Maybe I am misreading the studies- but what I have read that intact females actually have a *decreased* risk of lymphomas, mast cell cancers & hemangiosarcoma's(in addition to decreased risk of other cancers, too). In addition to decreased risk of ACL tears, incontinence issues, behavioral issues, excess growth, etc. I know mammary cancer is slightly increased after one cycle- but this isn't a super common cancer in goldens, or at all(per my vet). I was actually shocked when I told her we wanted to cancel her spay appointment and she was pleased! 


I've never been on the favorable side of statistics. So, for me, it is about doing my research and doing what is best for our dog and hoping if nothing else it doesn't harm. 


So for Ms. Dory. She will have at least one heat cycle and then we will go from there. Ideally, I'd like to do it sometime between her first and second allowing her to grow and mature as much as possible without increasing any more risk for mammary cancer. I am a novice here so I have no idea if waiting for one cycle helps, or if I should allow two. Maybe someone else can chime in. 


Good luck!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

FWIW, I have decided to leave my girl intact.

She has had litters so her chance of pyometra are perhaps reduced.
Her chances of mamnary cancer are what they are.

I cannot imagine her reaction should she become incontinent since she keeps herself spotless.

I have researched, discussed and gone back & forth on this issue. While not young, she is my girl and remaining intact seems to outweigh getting her spayed although her risk of developmental issues is past, but as an active girl who loves agility and obedience, any protections afforded to her by keeping her hormonal system intact seems a good idea. 

Again, she is not young (8 years old) so your decision may well be based on other criteria.

Oh, yeah there is the whole weight thing too


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Cpc1972 said:


> With a female I would rather deal with a ACL tear then a increase chance of lymphoma or hemangisarcoma.


First: I agree that this is a personal decision: we must all do what we think is best for our dogs. There isn't a "right" or "wrong" answer. 

But for the sake of accuracy, if you look at the research (read the article by Chris Zink, linked in post no. 2 of this thread), mammary cancer seems to be the only type of the disease for which the chance is higher among intact or late spayed female dogs (and it can be detected and cured fairly easily). Based on the research findings so far, the chances of lymphoma and hemangiosarcoma, just like the probability of ACL tears, seem in fact to be higher for dogs that are spayed early.

But there are exceptions. Early spaying doesn't mean your dog will develop lymphoma, or that she will tear her ACL. Late spaying, or remaining intact, doesn't mean she'll be cancer-free. Many dogs that are spayed early go on to live long lives. Many that are spayed late or not at all (like my last dog) die at a young age.

FWIW, my new pup is a male, and he'll remain intact unless there's a compelling reason to have him neutered. He's going to be an agility dog. It's important to me that his bones and joints be allowed to develop properly, and that I do what I can to reduce his chances of injury. The research seems clear on this aspect: he will have a better chance of remaining sound if I leave him intact. So that's what I'll do.

Things are less clear when it comes to cancer. There are almost certainly other factors at play, in addition to spaying and neutering (genetic, environmental, whatever). But I will say this: while I now live in North America, I'm from a country where dogs tend to be spayed or neutered only if there's a real reason to do so: for example, the owners aren't in a position to manage an intact dog, there's a health issue or a behavioural issue, etc. Spaying and neutering tend to be the exception, not the rule. When I was a child, we and our extended family always had dogs, none was ever spayed or neutered, and they all, without exception, lived out their natural lives (12-14 years). This thing of dogs dying of cancer at age 8, or age 5, or even younger, is new to me. So, in large part because of "social conditioning", if I can call it that, I've chosen to keep my dogs intact. But I also keep a close eye on the research and will certainly change my mind if there's evidence to support it.

It's a tricky subject, though. There are no "truths" here, only conclusions drawn from statistics that may or may not be accurate. I understand why people choose early spaying and neutering, and I respect that choice. As I said earlier, we all do what we think is best for our dogs.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I actually read the opposite about those cancers for females. I will see if I can find what I read. Every dog will have different circumstances. For instance if you want to run or do agility with your dog it's best to wait. Your ****** if you do and ****** if you wait. The bottom line is whatever you choose your dog will probably have a very happy and healthy long life. No doubt if we had gotten a male this last time he would of not been neutered or would of waited until 2.


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## smp (Apr 27, 2016)

Debating this decision too. I'm a physician and have tried to do my own due diligence and read some of the literature myself. Our vet (Penn trained - excellent) feels that the growth and joint risk is mostly theoretical and extrapolated from human research, but that the studies that try to prove it, just don't show that much difference. The two major reasons to consider not waiting are 1) the risk of the surgery itself. Once a female has gone through 1-2 heat cycles the vascularization to the uterus become significantly increased which makes the surgery much more difficult and more risky. There have been perfectly healthy dogs that have bled out and died from spaying (rare). and 2) the rates for mammary cancer go up dramatically after the first two heat cycles. It is zero before the first cycle.

Now...non-scientific opinion: Our last golden Maggie was spayed early at 4-5 months. She had the most amazing silky coat ever her whole life. Blew out her cruciate ligament when she was 8 chasing a tennis ball in the backyard, and eventually died of hemangiosarcoma at 10. So, I'm leaning towards waiting a little longer with our new pup Sadie, but probably no later than after her first heat cycle- maybe around 9-11 months? My 2 cents.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

May I also suggest an ovary sparing spay? The uterus is removed, but the ovaries remain, which means that the pup still has her hormones to grow and develop as normal. I think it's a good middle road. There's a Facebook group all about different types of spaying/neutering. https://www.facebook.com/groups/alternativealteringinfo/

That being said, when I made my decision to have Kaizer neutered at 18 months (I wouldn't have neutered him at all, but he's cryptorchid and needs to be neutered) the decreased/increased risks of cancer never played a factor. I'm not sure anyone knows what causes cancer (although I'm sure there are genetic/environmental links). I am sure that cancer is random and terrible, it does not care if you waited to neuter your dog, it does not care if you didn't wait. Waiting to spay is not a guarantee that your dog will get lymphoma or hemangio just as not waiting is a guarantee that your dog won't get those terrible cancers. For me, my decision was based on "am i making the decision that will give my dog the best quality of life and give him the best start to his hopefully long life?" for me, who plans on doing obedience and maybe agility (maybe not competitively yet) with my dog, waiting to neuter would give him the best quality of life and the best start. It's important to me that he grow and develop properly. I'm not saying anyone who chose to spay early is making the wrong decision (obviously they're making the right decision for their lifestyle and their needs, just as I'm making mine). Spaying/neutering is not a one-size-fits-all type situation.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

I'm wondering if an ovary sparing spay would be something any vet will do, or if you'd have to find a specialist. Going to inquire for sure!


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

On the Facebook group I mentioned, they have a list of vets per state that would be willing to do it.

ETA: they have vets listed for Australia, Canada, Puerto Rico, and UK/Ireland too.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

I cannot begin to describe the anxiety I have waiting for her to go into heat! LOL!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I have NEVER had to leave my pups with the vet to be spayed or neutered, I have always assisted with the surgery then loaded them into the car and took them home to wake up. I must admit that not being present during the surgery is part of my concern about this decision. 

I might have to see if the vet would allow me to be in the room during surgery and bring her home  would certainly make this decision easier. Maybe I do qualify for neurotic mom after all! 

Fear is a terrible thing.


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## Piper_the_goldenpuppy (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm currently trying to figure this out with my 4 month old, Piper. My vet wants to wait until after her first heat. One of my best friends from college is also a vet, and he's opposed to waiting due to the increased risk for mammary cancer. My breeder was ambivalent. I'm also a doctor, and frankly, if you look at the research, none of it is strong. Its so surprising to me, given how many dogs there are out there, that this hasn't been more extensively studied!

My plan is to wait until after her first heat, but possibly until after her second, because I would really like all of her bones to finish developing. Its not a big deal for me to do mammary exams on my dog, I'm always rubbing her belly anyway ! Its interesting because in Sweden, its illegal to neuter/spay, and in most of Europe dogs are left intact, and overpopulation isn't an issue. People just take care of their dogs when they are in heat. I'm thinking about an ovarian sparing spay, but it doesn't eliminate the risk of pyometra if all of the cervix isn't removed, and since its not a common procedure, even a vet who is trained or agrees to do it might not remove all the cervix. And pyometra is much harder to diagnose after OSS. 

Frankly, I want my dog to have the best quality of life she can. I obviously would like her to live as long as she can, but I want her to have a good quality of life. And orthopedic issues are so common in goldens, even when they are hip and elbow certified, I want her to get the best start she can have.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I agree and have decided to wait at least until she is grown. Studies or not it does make sense they need to fully develop before loosing body parts. Besides, it gives me a little more time before having to leave her at the vet :-(


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