# I am in shock



## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

That is such a shame. I feel bad for you and Asia, as well as the dog that got bitten. I'm sure you are very dissappointed, but maybe it was a one time thing?


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Oh, I can only imagine how you feel! If we could only get inside of our Golden's heads and see what makes them do these things! It may have been an isolated incident and you did what you could do to stop it, so don't feel guilty! Just follow the trainer's advice and I'm sure Asia will be fine. Prayers for you all, and the other dog too!

Jazzys Mom


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I truly believe that sometimes they just don't like a certain dog, for whatever reason, just like sometimes we don't like a certain person.

Good luck with the training.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

No matter how well we know our dogs, there is always an element of language-barrier mystery. I wonder what she was experiencing that made her bite? Sometimes it is hard to see who instigated what rather than the aftermath. It's sad if all the fun goes out of the dogs park for you and or Asia.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry. I understand your feelings on the situation. You are so lucky you have a trainer willing to work with you at the park. They're not always that easy to come by. 

I think we forget sometimes that our Goldens are dogs. Shadow doesn't like all other dogs, but I've been lucky because he will listen to my command when he gets growly. If I'm quick enough, a quit, "Leave It" and redirection works.

Asia will feel your tension at the park, but hopefully when the trainer is there to help you, you will relax a bit. It's not easy having a growly Golden. People look at you like you've done something wrong.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I agree we never understand the language barrier.The dogs she doesn't like are usualy ones who are rude but not outwardly or obviously aggresive. They are ones she knows she can dominate. She is usually submissive to most. This poor dog sniffed her crotch and then she went after it.


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## Prov31 (Aug 16, 2006)

I don't have any advice, just thoughts and prayers for you and the other owner and the little dog.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

Sorry to hear about this, you must have been a little shaken up. But you are doing all the right things, and Goldens are dogs after all, so things like this happen. Your trainer will help you through this. Good thoughts and prayers for you and all involved.


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> I truly believe that sometimes they just don't like a certain dog, for whatever reason, just like sometimes we don't like a certain person.
> 
> Good luck with the training.


agree on this one 2 out of three of mine hate black labradors and we see one we have to lead them up and all three of them i they see old english sheepdogs they will attack the golden included so they have to be leaded up why those too breeds i have no idea


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Have any of you actually had your dogs bite?


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

Penny hates GSDs. Don't know why; she's just a bigot I guess...just doesn't like the way they look.

She met one who insisted on playing, laying a paw over the back of her neck. Penny told her politely "Back off bitch! I hate you". She was clacking her teeth and scooting backwards in a sitting position. GSD didn't get the message, did it again the next day and Penny took her out. Not literally, but charged growling, snarling with a lot of noise and fuss. GSD hid behind her Dad and finally got the message.

Penny is really a nice dog who speaks politely to other dogs. The smart ones get it, the goofy ones need more convincing.

I'm glad you're getting good help. It would be a shame to have to give up dog parks. We stay away from dog parks and dog meet ups because she just doesn't like them.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Joanne & Asia said:


> Have any of you actually had your dogs bite?


Thank goodness, no. I'm probably doing Shadow harm, but I don't bring him many places where there are strange dogs, or where he would feel corned and can't escape. If he's uncomfortable he growls, barks, then runs to humans.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Joanne... I believe I see good things and bad things here. First and foremost though is have Asia thoroughly examined by your vet... full blood work-up, et al. The good thing I see is that you are NOT offering up excuses for Asia's behaviors and actions... your dog has the problem and you are willing to start there and deal with it. Getting together with an experienced and successful (with a proven track record) trainer is a good first move. Okay for the bad things... Asia (barring any medical related causes) doesn't really respect you in the position as top dog. Who is to say what really transpired at the dog park as dogs speak with their eyes and body motions as fluidly as you and I speak with our oral language. Theirs can be a difficult language to read and interpret in real time by humans, however that is still no excuse for not having deferred to you first before the attack. The 3 times Sidney has shown any aggression (growl and or snap), though he may well have been provoked as bystanders tried to convince me of, I wasted no time in immediately correcting Sidney and reminding him that *I MAKE ALL THOSE DECISIONS, NOT HIM!* You must make it very clear who is always to be in charge and this can be done in subtle ways as in employing NILIF to varying degrees depending upon your dog... or overtly such as protecting your dog when necessary and also immediately interviening at the very first sign of any aggression... ie the hard stare.

Anyway good luck with Asia and I hope the trainer you've selected in not a treat-trainer (positive methods only) as aggression cannot be reliably resolved with "bigger and tastier treats", rather you must assert yourself as a worthy top dog with (in Cesar's words) a calm assertive energy... IOW, do NOT be afraid of the dog park, do NOT anticipate trouble but be alert to recognize it at its earliest stage and immediately deal with it. BTW, this doesn't mean violence but it does require a no nonsense attitude and some physicality when appropriate.


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## kalkid (Feb 22, 2007)

Joanne & Asia said:


> Have any of you actually had your dogs bite?


I'll hopefully make you feel a little better. Daisy is very persnickidy with other dogs. I've mentioned before but she came from a rescue background. Maybe it's a coincidence but if a dog tries to sniff her in the wrong place or tries to mount her or whatever she goes postal. Then again she came from a puppy mill, had one litter of puppies way to young in my opinion, she was 9 months or so, and then had problems with the delivery and had to be spayed. Breeder kept her long enough to wean the pups, kept a female and sent Daisy to the pound. Who knows maybe in her mind that "action" wouldn't result in a good thing for her and maybe she remembers. Then again I'm probably giving her to much credit and she just doesn't like some other dogs. Ironically Daisy tends to get into it with bigger dogs as I think she feels threatened by them. I've seen yappy dogs come at her and I've thought oh no and she just ignores them. I do also agree with monomer though. When I have her leashed she will growl or warn other dogs if they try to mess with her all the while staring up at me with a look of what do you want me to do. If they appear to be getting along I let it go, if they don't or it doesn't feel right I make the other dog get away.


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## Coffee'sDad (Mar 10, 2008)

Wishing you the best. The good thing is that you are taking all the steps to correct this, and none of the other dogs at the park even know anything about this. Asia won't be carring a big scarlet "A" or is it "B" (for biter")?

dg


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Thanks to all who replied and offered suggestions. Monomer, I appreciate your feedback and agree and our trainer is no nonsense and physical in correcting aggression when warranted. I am using NILF but admit it had fallen off more recently as she had been doing so well. The trainer told me all the things you did and I know Asia doesn't respect me fully as the pack leader so I must work hard on that. It is hard for me to face the thought of going back to the park but the ice will be broken with the trainer so that should help. I was also wondering, what type of medical conditions could cause this? She has shown growly aggression on rare occassions in the past but never bitten.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Thyroid issues, lyme, tumors...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Kimm said:


> Thyroid issues, lyme, tumors...


...hip and other joint issues, vision problems, infections (from tooth to anal and everything in-between...


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am so sorry that Asia bit that dog but am glad that it is going to be ok. Hopefully the training with you and her trainer will help.

On the lighter side....If I was a dog, and another dog sniffed my crotch, I would bite too. LOL 
Agree with everyone on getting her checked out medically.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Thanks Carol. I needed the chuckle!


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

Joanne & Asia said:


> Have any of you actually had your dogs bite?


in answer to this question yes i have had my collie bite a black labrador and it was severe she is now kept muzzled because she actually seems to have more confidence with it on


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I hadn't even thought of muzzling. Any thoghts on whether that would cause more aggression if she feels out of control rather than secure with it on. I would consider it if I thought it would make her more secure. She has never been attacked by a dog but has been dominated forecefully several times.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Joanne & Asia said:


> I hadn't even thought of muzzling. Any thoghts on whether that would cause more aggression if she feels out of control rather than secure with it on. I would consider it if I thought it would make her more secure. She has never been attacked by a dog but has been dominated forecefully several times.


I would talk it over with the trainer first.


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## Michelle4 (Dec 1, 2007)

Good luck with the trainer! I am sorry you had such a horrible experience.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Joanne & Asia said:


> I hadn't even thought of muzzling. Any thoghts on whether that would cause more aggression if she feels out of control rather than secure with it on. I would consider it if I thought it would make her more secure. She has never been attacked by a dog but has been dominated forecefully several times.


I think you would be better off using a small pinch collar than a muzzle. I had a GSD that was fear aggressive, and did bite a couple of people. A trainer came, and taught me that I could have total control of him. He became a different dog within weeks.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

So sorry you had this happen. You have been given some good advice. 

This is why I like to avoid the parks ecspecially with my dogs. I would not reccomend a muzzle for your dog. If she was showing signs of aggresion (growling before) this will most likely not be the last time she actually connects with a bite. I would reccomend continuing the training with you trainer. If possible contact the breeder she may have advice to offer you. I know a lot of Breeders frequently have dogs come back to visit for a tune up. I have heard it described as boot camp as well LOL. In the meantime I would stay away from parks. Depending on her age and your access you may try a more physical workout for her such as bike riding, jogging, or lots and lots of fetching (mine will go forever). I have my own dogs have their scraps amongst eachother. When you own the dogs involved you do have the option of letting one find out who is boss or stepping in. Kali is our "alpha female" amongst the other dogs and she certainly does not catch trouble for any tune ups she gives the others. Ultimately, I rule the roost LOL. Again, you are having to deal with this, best of luck.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Once again I want to thank you all for your wisdom and advice. I just heard back from the owner of the dog she bit and he is home now with stitches n his chest and stitches and a drain in the wound under his front leg. They will remove the drain and stitches in 5 days. The vet bill wasn't as bad as I anticipated and the ownwer has been great to seal with. As I told her, I don't know if I would have been as uderstanding if it was my dog that was bitten. I have been an emotional wreck all day and haven't slept at all so hope I have a better night tonight. This whole thing has really thrown me for a loop!


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## maiapup (Nov 22, 2007)

I'm a fairly new member of the forum, so if you've discussed Asia's behavior before I hadn't noticed so pardon me if I ask questions that have been answered before.

How old is Asia? Have you had her since puppyhood, is she an adult rehome/rescue? Have you done any training classes with her? What sort of training, what have you tried with her 'growling' before this. What is her body posture during this episodes. It is very difficult to understand what may be going on with her via email or phone but some behaviors can point in different directions.

I will have to say that though I agree that dogs need clear and consistent leaders, not everything that happens is because a dog doesn't respect the owner like a certain TV trainer says for every case he shows edited on tv! 
:uhoh: And in many cases treating aggression with harsh and aggressive behavior serves to reinforce the behavior or make the association with it conditioned. For example, if your dog is aggressive towards a certain dog and you 'correct' it harshly when you see the dog, the dog might learn there was a reason to be aggressive with that dog. In general, correcting <only> does not actually correct the issue the dog is having, it may suppress the behavior at that time, but the feeling/emotion (fear, territoriality, etc.) does not go away, it's still there just under the surface and can exhibit another time if the dog feels particularly fearful at a later time when the stimuli sets the dog off. You should really try to get to the root of the problem and not just rely on 'corrections' when she exhibits the inappropriate behavior. Think of it this way, if your child goes to school to learn, they have a 'teacher', if the child develops a behavior problem, the teacher will recommend a psychologist. Dog trainers are fine for teaching (some)  but if a dog develops a behavior problem, especially one where there has been damage done to another dog or person, you need the help of a behavior professional.

As someone already mentioned, a complete health workup should be the first thing that is done, check the eyes, ears, bloodwork, feel the spine, check joints, etc.

I would suggest <not> going to the dog park at all. She should not be exposed to that stimuli until you have worked with her some. I (and most formally educated animal behavior folks) do not believe in 'flooding' dogs when working with them. She needs to work up to going to the dog park again. 

I don't take my dogs to public dog parks not because they have any issues but because I don't know what the other dogs are going to do and most people are not observant enough about the dogs and the behaviors and body language going on around them. The humans hang out together, talking, etc. and miss the action going on around them. We do go to some membership only dog parks that require temperament evaluations before being admitted but I still spend my time watching the behavior of the dogs around us to spot any potential problems.

Lastly, let me say that my written communication style is factual. I don't put a lot of emotion into my writing, (I'll try using the emoticons to help) so people may (and have) thought my posts rude or direct. If anyone takes it that way, it's not my intent. I am a scientist (animal behavior, marine biology,psychology) and it's just the way I write, it doesn't mean I don't care, I do or I wouldn't have spent all that money on education around what I'm passionate about, animal behavior.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Hi Kathi.Thanks for your comments. Asia is 3 and yes we've had her since she was 7 weeks. She went to puppy classes and was the star of the class. She was quite submissive at that time and was well socialized at the dog park. At 18 monthes we noticed the first signs of aggression. I called a trainer and we did private obedience lessons with her and discovered we were not the pack leaders.(eg...she refused to go into a down without treats and had to be physically made to do this almost like breaking a horse. Once this happened she went down ok and really seemed to relax into her new role of being follower not leader) After that her behaviour improved but we had isolated incidents with about 1 out of a hundred dogs. Always ones she felt she could dominate. I can tell when she is triggered and can intervene in time usually but not always.

I agree about not taking her back to the park and am actively working on obedience and the NILF approach. She is sweet and gentle and incredibly friendly with people and is a registered therapy dog. She comes from show lines and has had all her health clearances. I plan to take her to the vet next week.The trainer we have uses the NILF approach and uses physical corrections with aggression. 

Do you have any other tips for me?


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## MILLIESMOM (Aug 13, 2006)

_Millie has always been dominant, I am constantly enforce my job as pack leader. I have noticed though when she reacts aggressively toward other dogs, I notice I am tensing up and getting ready for the fall out. 
She is good at dog parks but she is a running barking greeter and sometimes that looks like she is going to eat the approaching dog alive. She is not she immediately goes into the whiney tail wagging greeting. But if the other dog answers back with a growl or runs away she is on the attack. 
When I took her to puppy class she would always pick out the BIGGEST pup and go after them.
She is now seven and has gotten alot better and I have taught my self how to react when I see another dog comming on our walks. I act calm and assertive, like big deal lets continue on with our walk. She acts fine.
There is one chocolate lab that walks by our house, she WILL NOT act civil with I do not know why.
Pearl is the marshmellow but twice she has snapped at a dog in the vets office, after the initial greeting she seems to be fine, then all of a sudden she snarls and lunges at them. She has done this twice, I think it is because she does not feel well. Keep working at it, you cant let your guard down. 

Millie came from a back yard breeder and has had both hips done TPO so I think that might have something to do with it, the hips. She does not seem to be in pain and runs and plays just fine. But I am sure if another larger dog jumped up on her back and put pressure there would be uncomfortable.
I also found out her father was very dominant also. The Day we picked her up from the breeder, they were running wild around the house and every time someone walked by the house and the mother seen them through the window she would go ballistic. I am sure this is ingrained into her also she is a terrific watch dog. Ya I know we should've turned away and left her there seeing some bad signs. But all in all she is a terrific dog and very smart, I would not trade her for anything.

Sorry so long winded _


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

maiapup said:


> I will have to say that though I agree that dogs need clear and consistent leaders, not everything that happens is because a dog doesn't respect the owner like a certain TV trainer says for every case he shows edited on tv!
> :uhoh: And in many cases treating aggression with harsh and aggressive behavior serves to reinforce the behavior or make the association with it conditioned. For example, if your dog is aggressive towards a certain dog and you 'correct' it harshly when you see the dog, the dog might learn there was a reason to be aggressive with that dog. In general, correcting <only> does not actually correct the issue the dog is having, it may suppress the behavior at that time, but the feeling/emotion (fear, territoriality, etc.) does not go away, it's still there just under the surface and can exhibit another time if the dog feels particularly fearful at a later time when the stimuli sets the dog off. You should really try to get to the root of the problem and not just rely on 'corrections' when she exhibits the inappropriate behavior. Think of it this way, if your child goes to school to learn, they have a 'teacher', if the child develops a behavior problem, the teacher will recommend a psychologist. Dog trainers are fine for teaching (some)  but if a dog develops a behavior problem, especially one where there has been damage done to another dog or person, you need the help of a behavior professional.
> 
> As someone already mentioned, a complete health workup should be the first thing that is done, check the eyes, ears, bloodwork, feel the spine, check joints, etc.
> ...



Welcome! Great advice/info above! Nice to read a like-minded post!

Re: Asia, I would agree that going to the dog park is not the best idea... preferably EVER - as I want to pick my dogs' friends - but definitly not now. For one thing, your dog now has a serious bite history on her and it's really not fair to the other people in the park to expose their dogs to the potential for serious injury.

I also have concerns of using a trainer who deals with aggression via corrections. Unlike what others have said here, positive training is not about using bigger, better, tastier treats. It's about changing the associations that drive behavior. I would recommend you consider looking for a different trainer who can try something other than ego-based physical domination methods.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

Do you have any advice about how to change the association that drives the behaviour that is not correction based?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Joanne & Asia said:


> Do you have any advice about how to change the association that drives the behaviour that is not correction based?


Classical/counter conditioning and desensitization. Also, I seem to recall reading earlier (and I haven't gone back to check, so forgive me if I'm wrong) that you said something about her letting loose when a dog was getting all up in her grill and not leaving her alone. Part of the solution lies in you working in a team so that she learns to trust that YOU will step in and remove annoying dogs from her radar screen before she feels the need to open the can of whoop ass. My Whippet doesn't tolorate being jumped on by dogs. She's never attacked over it, but I mange it closely and intervene when I see play escalating to the point that she may get jumped on. As such, she's developed a pretty long fuse of tolorance b/c she trusts that I've got her back so to speak.

Two books may be of interest: Fight! and Fiesty Fido. Both can be found online at www.dogwise.com.


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