# Denise Fenzi Seminar - Drop on recall



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Got some good tips from the seminar this weekend. She's HUGELY motivational in her training, no real physical corrections, anti-ear pinch, etc. and has really, really nice working Tervs.

You can see a lot of her stuff on YouTube. Look up dfenzi (her username) or just search her full name.

There was way more lecture than I'd like, mostly b/c so much of it was about the importance of play, playskills and relationship building. That's already a huge part of my training, so I could've skipped that -- although it's always nice to hear people promoting that kind of stuff.

The two best training techniques I walked away with:

For creeping on the DOR -- Set up dog, leave toy or food behind the dog. Let him see you place it there. Stand the dog. Leave the dog. Start by walking out six feet. Down the dog w/ verbal or signal. When he drops, release him to get the toy/food from BEHIND him. Repeat w/ more distance for a couple trials. Then call dog and immediately drop (so as not to have too much speed before the drop). Everytime he's successful, you release him to run back and get the toy and you run in and celebrate with him. Her "correction" for slow or creepy drop was to run to the toy herself, pick it up, show it to the dog and sort of "neener neener... you could've had this, but you screwed up! G'dog... let's try it again."

Quiz and I hadn't practiced DOR for probably 2 months and he was hot and tired when we first started, so his initial 'demo' was uncharacteristically creeping... he took like 4 steps to get into the down. After 3 reps w/ toy behind him, it was totally different!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Very cool!
Janice Gunn did a lot of that (toy/food behind dog) for everything...DOR, signals, stays -- GREAT ideas!!!! That and throwing food behind dog for the same thing.
Okay, what else??


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Glad you liked the seminar!!! You can also use the food/toy behind the dog to help with creeping on start-line stays in agility, so that you guys can actually do more agility


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am going to try this with Tango. She creeps about three steps. Tally has the opposite problem. He drops down on recall in a flash, but he hesitates to come in after that. It is weird and just started being a problem. It's like he's on a down-stay.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Ljilly28 said:


> I am going to try this with Tango. She creeps about three steps. Tally has the opposite problem. He drops down on recall in a flash, but he hesitates to come in after that. It is weird and just started being a problem. It's like he's on a down-stay.


For Tally, I'd probably do two things:

1. Work the drop part separate. Call > Drop > Reinforce

2. Set dog in a down, walk away, turn and face dog -- all done formal looking like you're setting up part B of the DOR. Have a toy hidden on you. Call the dog. At the first muscle movement for getting up, explode into praise, whip out your toy and toss it between your legs, letting him run through to get it.

Sometimes put the whole exercise together, with one toy behind him and a hidden toy on you so he never knows WHERE he's going to get rewarded.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

For the nervous, insecure dogs in groups... She gives them a "comfort item" that's placed behind the dog. Idea being it splits their mental energy between thinking about where's mom vs. thinking about the ball or bag of food behind them. We tried it with a friend's dog who is having group problems and it really made a difference. He only ganced back at the bag a couple times (glancing back is a good thing b/c it shows they are thinking about what's back there) and you could see his face was much more relaxed. Progress to the "thing" being under your armband, which you leave in the ring anyway, so as far is the dog knows, it could even be there in the ring.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Putting or throwing something behind the dog is how my other dogs were trained. I'm trying something different with Flip: after the drop I give him the cue to walk backward. Often I'll give him the "scoot-drop" signal, so it looks like he's crawling backward.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Loisiana said:


> Putting or throwing something behind the dog is how my other dogs were trained. I'm trying something different with Flip: after the drop I give him the cue to walk backward. Often I'll give him the "scoot-drop" signal, so it looks like he's crawling backward.


I never reward forward in things where creeping could be a problem, so the reward has always come w/ him moving back. I generally toss a toy over his head after he drops. In this exercise, for Quiz, knowing it's back there was really motivating him to drop fast so I'd release him to run and get the toy.

I'll fade it to having a person place a toy for me w/o him seeing me put it there. The nice thing is that in the ring, if I think I need the extra "help" as i'm setting him up, I can glance over my shoulder, which signals to the dog that there "could" be something back there!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I might have to try the one for stays with Flip when we get to that point. He sure is a momma's boy, I'm worried about how he's going to handle out of sights. Of course he's still young, maybe he'll grow out of it.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for posting! I have always released backwards for quick stop exercises. On the DOR threw toy/food over their head with "back-back-get it". I love the leave toys behind them on a stand stay. I wonder if it will help with the stand stay? Doo is tending to move, ever so slightly, when I leave him. Saturday, I used a jump board in front of his toes, but I will try the toy behind him tomorrow!

I even transitioned this into the field work for whistle stops. I act like I am going to throw a fun bumper then whistle "sit". As soon as he sits, I throw the bumper over his head. Tonight we had our FIRST real whistle sit! I'm so excited.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I can already see that with Quiz, this is causing anticipation on the drop, which we never went through in training before. Not a problem - just means I have to do a lot more straight recalls and straight recalls to hidden toys that I have on me.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*2010 Specific Training Goals*

Meant to start this as a new topic! I re-posted as a new thread! Please add comments there!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm a professional at taking threads off the original topic. maybe we should start the competition/training goals thread as a separate thing?

Somewhat off topic of the seminar presenter, but relevant to DOR... I've always had a separate cue for long stays and stays where the dog would be called to me/cued otherwise. I'm now very careful to have a different cue for the DOR to straight-to-front recalls. (Recall: Come!! DOR: Here!! (drop) Come!!! so the dog can have additional information on what is going to happen. Theoretically this will be helping to alleviate any anticipation...we'll see exactly what happens though...!

ETA: I don't think I had a question in there... just commenting that I'm very much for utilizing the power of behavior chains and cues. I used to absolutely not want a patterned trained dog...and now for comp obed I sure do, down to our set ups before each exercise. This is really helping out stimulus control.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

RedDogs said:


> I'm a professional at taking threads off the original topic. maybe we should start the competition/training goals thread as a separate thing?
> 
> Somewhat off topic of the seminar presenter, but relevant to DOR... I've always had a separate cue for long stays and stays where the dog would be called to me/cued otherwise. I'm now very careful to have a different cue for the DOR to straight-to-front recalls. (Recall: Come!! DOR: Here!! (drop) Come!!! so the dog can have additional information on what is going to happen. Theoretically this will be helping to alleviate any anticipation...we'll see exactly what happens though...!
> 
> ETA: I don't think I had a question in there... just commenting that I'm very much for utilizing the power of behavior chains and cues. I used to absolutely not want a patterned trained dog...and now for comp obed I sure do, down to our set ups before each exercise. This is really helping out stimulus control.


DOH! I thought I was starting a new thread! Need. More. Coffee! I'm gonna go move it.

Yes, I use different cues too. Stay is I'll come back to you and release. Wait is I'll release from afar. I also use FRONT for the novice recall and the second half of the DOR and COME for the first part of the DOR.... So, my DOR is Come > Down > Front and my straight recall is Front.

Yes, I despise the patterning, but it does help! BUT, the one thing I hate, hate, hate is a go out dog who starts to anticipate the turn and sit. It's just such a personal pet peeve of mine! I HATE how it looks!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stephanie,

How do you do the go out? I send out with either a target on the gate or not. If there is a target, I say "get it" if there is not, I give the "Sit" command. I'm not sure what would cause the anticipation but I have seen it too.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've never understood the theory behind using two different commands for straight recall and DOR to prevent anticipation. I understand that it would prevent the dog from dropping on the straight recall command, but wouldn't it cause the dog to be even more likely to anticipate a drop when given the dor command, since you have actually _told_ him you are going to be giving him a drop?

I try my best not to pattern train...I find the dog is less likely to be paying full attention if he thinks he knows what comes next. If he knows I could throw anything at him at anytime he is going to be a lot more careful about thinking before just doing. Notice I said I _try_ not to...I do still tend to make things more predictable than I'd like.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Obviously I don't have any official study on it, and people are successful either way.

A straight recall cue tells the dog he needs to focus on one thing, getting to Front NOW.
A "you will be cued to drop" cue tells the dog to hurry, but be attentive, aware, and ready for the cue to come. Yes, you will go through a stage where anticipation may occur, and that's fine, it's a normal and appropriate part of the stimulus control process while the dog learns what is and is not going to be reinforced.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Stephanie,
> 
> How do you do the go out? I send out with either a target on the gate or not. If there is a target, I say "get it" if there is not, I give the "Sit" command. I'm not sure what would cause the anticipation but I have seen it too.


I find two methods of training are more likely to cause anticipation on the sit on go-outs: 

1.Dogs sent to a visible target - If they're used to going to a visible target and then that target isn't there in the ring, that's a huge cue shouting out that they are going to be told to sit. 

2. Dogs whose reinforcement for go-outs comes from the person and not the from the spot they were sent to. So the dog is sent to do a touch, or sit on a mat, etc, and then handler delivers the treat to the dog. Just like putting the reward behind the dog is more likely to make him want to drop quicker on the DOR, having the reward behind the dog on a go-out is more likely to make him want to sit sooner. Where the reward is delivered doesn't matter as much as it's location during the exercise.

And then of course there's the "in the ring we always turn and sit so let me go ahead and sit early and make mom happy."


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

DNL2448 said:


> Stephanie,
> 
> How do you do the go out? I send out with either a target on the gate or not. If there is a target, I say "get it" if there is not, I give the "Sit" command. I'm not sure what would cause the anticipation but I have seen it too.


Right now, I'm using a target, but b/c 99% of our shows are ring posts and ropes vs. gates, I always put it well beyond the ring rope so I'm calling my turn/sit outside the ring.

Right now, I'm at the point where I'll still have the target out, but sometimes call the sit rather than get it. I need to work on him not seeing the target be placed and then I'll start hiding the target under some grass so he's never really sure if there's physically something out there or not.

Denise does a nose touch to the center ring post or staunchin (sp?).I think I'm going to play with that technique, too.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

I was wondering would the "comfort item" distract the other dogs around him?



FlyingQuizini said:


> For the nervous, insecure dogs in groups... She gives them a "comfort item" that's placed behind the dog. Idea being it splits their mental energy between thinking about where's mom vs. thinking about the ball or bag of food behind them. We tried it with a friend's dog who is having group problems and it really made a difference. He only ganced back at the bag a couple times (glancing back is a good thing b/c it shows they are thinking about what's back there) and you could see his face was much more relaxed. Progress to the "thing" being under your armband, which you leave in the ring anyway, so as far is the dog knows, it could even be there in the ring.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Augie's Mom said:


> I was wondering would the "comfort item" distract the other dogs around him?


I suppose it could, but I don't think it's overly distracting. I used to leave Quiz in groups with a half circle of treats on the ground in front of him. I'd cue a leave it and that's what kept him from sniffing. Yeah, probably did distract the dogs next to him, but I would warn the owners of the dogs, so they had the choice to move their dogs if they wished.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> For the nervous, insecure dogs in groups... She gives them a "comfort item" that's placed behind the dog. Idea being it splits their mental energy between thinking about where's mom vs. thinking about the ball or bag of food behind them. We tried it with a friend's dog who is having group problems and it really made a difference. He only ganced back at the bag a couple times (glancing back is a good thing b/c it shows they are thinking about what's back there) and you could see his face was much more relaxed. Progress to the "thing" being under your armband, which you leave in the ring anyway, so as far is the dog knows, it could even be there in the ring.


So I tried this technique tonight in class when we practiced groups and I used his tossy bag from agility that he just loves. He was much more relaxed and confident. He actually looked happy instead of stressed.
Thanks so much for the suggestion!!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Augie's Mom said:


> So I tried this technique tonight in class when we practiced groups and I used his tossy bag from agility that he just loves. He was much more relaxed and confident. He actually looked happy instead of stressed.
> Thanks so much for the suggestion!!!


Hey, that's great! Not sure how in-depth I explained it (and I'm too lazy to go back and look!) but when you're in training, sometimes come back and reward him w/ a piece of food from the bag. Also, don't just make the duration longer and longer -- be random in the duration, so sometime you leave for longer, but sometimes you leave for shorter periods of time.


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