# Training and obedience: Are Goldens different from other sporting breeds?



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Bumping up.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Goldens are the number 1 AKC obedience breed. Most OTCHs, most dogs in the top 100 OB dogs/year, etc. Border collies come in at a somewhat close second. (In England, the style of OB competition favors BCs, but goldens do well there, too.)

For a good competition dog, you want a dog that craves interaction, wants to do the right thing, is a team player, is athletic, has moderate to high energy, and won't freak out in the crowded, noisy environment of a trial situation. Goldens are "soft" in the sense that a sharp word is often all the correction they need. They don't generally "shut down", however, like some dogs if an exercise is challenging. They keep trying. They are somewhat different from labs in that labs are more capable of being "intelligently disobedience," that is, a lab is more mentally able to refuse a command that the dog perceives as dangerous. 90% of guide dogs for the blind are labs, partly because a lab is more likely to refuse to step in front of moving traffic even if ordered to do so. A golden might jump off a cliff if asked. 

That said, they are definitely a split breed. If you want a good obedience prospect, your best bet is a pedigree with a lot of close-up, higher-level OB, agility, and/or field/hunt titles. 

You might find that your psychology theory might not prepare you for the practical challenges of training a dog at a high level. I'm not familiar with Standing Stone Kennel's training video, but there are a whole host of awesome online OB resources these days, many from people that train goldens and/or labs: Connie Cleveland, Janice Gunn, DD Anderson, to name just a few off the top of my head.


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## ecb515 (10 mo ago)

PalouseDogs said:


> Goldens are the number 1 AKC obedience breed. Most OTCHs, most dogs in the top 100 OB dogs/year, etc. Border collies come in at a somewhat close second. (In England, the style of OB competition favors BCs, but goldens do well there, too.)
> 
> For a good competition dog, you want a dog that craves interaction, wants to do the right thing, is a team player, is athletic, has moderate to high energy, and won't freak out in the crowded, noisy environment of a trial situation. Goldens are "soft" in the sense that a sharp word is often all the correction they need. They don't generally "shut down", however, like some dogs if an exercise is challenging. They keep trying. They are somewhat different from labs in that labs are more capable of being "intelligently disobedience," that is, a lab is more mentally able to refuse a command that the dog perceives as dangerous. 90% of guide dogs for the blind are labs, partly because a lab is more likely to refuse to step in front of moving traffic even if ordered to do so. A golden might jump off a cliff if asked.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much! As you can see, I know very, very little about the world of dog sports as of yet, so all of this information is just what I was looking for. I will definitely check out the trainers you mentioned.

Re: psychology theory - oh, probably not, but it does make me interested in the possibilities. My main goal at first would be training up a good family dog who listens to commands and is well-behaved.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

My golden is not soft and most I met aren’t soft. This is a good trait to have in obedience. I have had many Border Collies, most of which are softer, and while I feel they are easier (for me) to train, they can struggle some with being incorrect or with some more traditional OB training techniques.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

ecb515 said:


> Thank you very much! As you can see, I know very, very little about the world of dog sports as of yet, so all of this information is just what I was looking for. I will definitely check out the trainers you mentioned.
> 
> Re: psychology theory - oh, probably not, but it does make me interested in the possibilities. My main goal at first would be training up a good family dog who listens to commands and is well-behaved.


On the psychology thing, most trainers use a combination of classical and operant conditioning, whether they know it or not. Lol


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dog NameOTCH2 Bluekreek's It's My Time To Shine UDX OM4 CGCAussieOTCH8 AGCH MACH5 RACH Norwood Color Me Zayne UDX8 OGM RM3 RAE3 HSAd HSBd HXAd HXBd MXC PDS MJC PJS MFG TQX T2B5BCOTCH4 HC Norwood Irresistible UDX4 PCD OM8 HSAds HSBds HIBs HXAds HXBdBCOTCH4 Norwood's Ewe Make It Simple UDX2 OM4 BNBCOTCH3 Nutmeg Amazing UDX3 OM6BCOTCH4 Ragin's Sendin A Message UDX4 OM7 BN NA NAJBCOTCH8 Redtop Brio UDX12 PCDX OGMBCOTCH4 Wildfire Anything Goes UDX4 OM6 BN RNBCGCH CH OTCH7 Wyndspell Spring Fling UDX6 OGMBCCH OTCH7 Jazz'D Red Hot Intentions UDX12 PCDX OGMFCROTCH3 Electralon Snows No Boundaries UDX6 PUTD OGM VER SH FDC CAA RATCH DJ CGC TKAGoldenObedience/Conformation pedigreeOTCH12 High Times Shake 'N Bake UDX8 OGM SHGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH7 High Times Texas Star UDX17 PCD OGM BN RN JHGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH3 Mvp's Dy-No-Mite UDX5 OM9 BN TDX JH CGC TKIGoldenObedience/Conformation pedigreeOTCH5 Rippling Run Yukon Landslide UDX5 OM9Goldenfield/obedienceOTCH3 Sunfire's Pride And Joy UDX2 OM3 BN RAE AX OAJ NF DS CGC TKAGoldenObedience/Conformation pedigreeOTCH8 Sunshine Light My Fire UDX5 PCDX OGMGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH8 Sunshine The Beat Goes On UDX9 OGMGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH3 Tanbark's Sweetened With Honey UDX6 OGM BN GN GO REGoldenobedience OTCH12 Tanbark's Three Wire UDX21 OGMGoldenobedienceOTCH4 Tanbark's Time To Pounce UDX5 OM9 BN MX MXB MXJ MJB MXF T2B2Goldenfield/obedienceOTCH18 Topbrass The Greatest Show On Earth UDX14 OGM BN GNGoldenfield OTCH5 Wakemup Tinder Lights The Fire VCD2 UDX8 OGM BN GN RA JH MX MXJ NF T2BGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH23 MACH3 Webshire's Takoda Code Talker VCD3 UDX26 OGM RE JH MXC PAD MJC PJD T2B5Goldenfield/conformation/obedienceOTCH5 Sandcastle Starring Trevy UDX6 OGM BN RESheltie


^^^ The above is the top 25 obedience dogs in the AKC, based on OTCH points (I believe).

As you can see there's very few breeds at the top - and 56% of the dogs are golden retrievers. Most dogs competing with the top trainers - are coming from versatile pedigrees. 




ecb515 said:


> When it comes to training and obedience, are Goldens different from other sporting breeds, and if so, how?


Yes - they are quite different. 

It's so difficult to explain without touching on training areas that I'm not involved or experienced in. For obedience, I would prefer a golden retriever over all other sporting breeds. And after goldens, I would be very selective about which dog breeds are closest to what you can get with a golden retriever. I would probably say if based on trainability, flat coats would be a next best dog, even though they are not goldens.  

Many of the breeds preferred for hunting purposes tend to be more driven by instincts and drive and more independent in how they work. There's no stopping to look back for confirmation when sent out to do something. 

Obedience is a game of inches instead of a game of miles which sports like field or agility seem to be (again, glancing at what people seem to be saying about their own sports vs personal experience). We don't need dogs to run miles and be tough to handle thorns in the feet and birds with sharp beaks and nails in the mouths. But we do need dogs to be confident and focused. And then they also need to be agile and confident enough to do all the retrieves, jumps, scent discrimination stuff without constantly looking back for help from their owner. You want a dog that is quick to understand what you want them to do and keeps working until they are "right". 

With goldens walking into the ring, they are more likely to naturally be focused on their owners and excited about working for rewards. Many of them have that flamboyance that comes out in excess when they get to do something that they know how to do. It's that Hermione jumping up and waving her hands because she knows the answer kind of temperament.


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## ecb515 (10 mo ago)

Tagrenine said:


> My golden is not soft and most I met aren’t soft. This is a good trait to have in obedience. I have had many Border Collies, most of which are softer, and while I feel they are easier (for me) to train, they can struggle some with being incorrect or with some more traditional OB training techniques.


Thank you, this is very good to know! It was one of those things I'd read a few times and just figured it was true, so it is good to know it isn't universal! 



ArkansasGold said:


> On the psychology thing, most trainers use a combination of classical and operant conditioning, whether they know it or not. Lol


Yes! That's what it seemed like to me, and what makes the idea of training so interesting. As a consequence of being so new, I'm very much all theory at this point, but background knowledge, IMO, is never a bad thing. 



Megora said:


> Dog NameOTCH2 Bluekreek's It's My Time To Shine UDX OM4 CGCAussieOTCH8 AGCH MACH5 RACH Norwood Color Me Zayne UDX8 OGM RM3 RAE3 HSAd HSBd HXAd HXBd MXC PDS MJC PJS MFG TQX T2B5BCOTCH4 HC Norwood Irresistible UDX4 PCD OM8 HSAds HSBds HIBs HXAds HXBdBCOTCH4 Norwood's Ewe Make It Simple UDX2 OM4 BNBCOTCH3 Nutmeg Amazing UDX3 OM6BCOTCH4 Ragin's Sendin A Message UDX4 OM7 BN NA NAJBCOTCH8 Redtop Brio UDX12 PCDX OGMBCOTCH4 Wildfire Anything Goes UDX4 OM6 BN RNBCGCH CH OTCH7 Wyndspell Spring Fling UDX6 OGMBCCH OTCH7 Jazz'D Red Hot Intentions UDX12 PCDX OGMFCROTCH3 Electralon Snows No Boundaries UDX6 PUTD OGM VER SH FDC CAA RATCH DJ CGC TKAGoldenObedience/Conformation pedigreeOTCH12 High Times Shake 'N Bake UDX8 OGM SHGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH7 High Times Texas Star UDX17 PCD OGM BN RN JHGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH3 Mvp's Dy-No-Mite UDX5 OM9 BN TDX JH CGC TKIGoldenObedience/Conformation pedigreeOTCH5 Rippling Run Yukon Landslide UDX5 OM9Goldenfield/obedienceOTCH3 Sunfire's Pride And Joy UDX2 OM3 BN RAE AX OAJ NF DS CGC TKAGoldenObedience/Conformation pedigreeOTCH8 Sunshine Light My Fire UDX5 PCDX OGMGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH8 Sunshine The Beat Goes On UDX9 OGMGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH3 Tanbark's Sweetened With Honey UDX6 OGM BN GN GO REGoldenobedience OTCH12 Tanbark's Three Wire UDX21 OGMGoldenobedienceOTCH4 Tanbark's Time To Pounce UDX5 OM9 BN MX MXB MXJ MJB MXF T2B2Goldenfield/obedienceOTCH18 Topbrass The Greatest Show On Earth UDX14 OGM BN GNGoldenfield OTCH5 Wakemup Tinder Lights The Fire VCD2 UDX8 OGM BN GN RA JH MX MXJ NF T2BGoldenfield/obedienceOTCH23 MACH3 Webshire's Takoda Code Talker VCD3 UDX26 OGM RE JH MXC PAD MJC PJD T2B5Goldenfield/conformation/obedienceOTCH5 Sandcastle Starring Trevy UDX6 OGM BN RESheltie
> 
> 
> ^^^ The above is the top 25 obedience dogs in the AKC, based on OTCH points (I believe).
> ...


Oh gosh, this is such good information! I am still looking over it all and processing but I wanted to say thank you in advance!


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ecb515 said:


> Thank you, this is very good to know! It was one of those things I'd read a few times and just figured it was true, so it is good to know it isn't universal!


Don't misunderstand though, being "soft" isn't a negative trait. It's neutral, and depends on the person training the dog and their training style. A softer dog will take a minor correction such as a "no!" where another dog will hear your "no" and decide to take it under advisement but ultimately make their own decision on the matter and thus may require firmer correction.


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## ecb515 (10 mo ago)

Hildae said:


> Don't misunderstand though, being "soft" isn't a negative trait. It's neutral, and depends on the person training the dog and their training style. A softer dog will take a minor correction such as a "no!" where another dog will hear your "no" and decide to take it under advisement but ultimately make their own decision on the matter and thus may require firmer correction.


Thank you! This is a great explanation. Your instinct was correct: I did assume 'soft' was a negative. I got the vibe from that term that you had to be really gentle and not firm with training, or that you could accidentally correct too sharply or used the wrong approach and set training back a long way.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I disagree with that description of soft. Yielding to corrections is not being soft, it’s being biddable.

To me, soft can be a negative trait. I prefer to use biddable when describing Goldens as a breed. I have one dog that I consider to be soft and one that I don’t think is very soft at all, but she’s biddable. The soft one shuts down and really has trouble with being wrong. One error will spawn more errors as he gets more and more stressed. I don’t even correct him sometimes, but if he knows what he should have done, he’ll start to stress.

The other dog, that I don’t think is soft, can take a correction in stride and try again. She will keep working with enthusiasm and will stay in a high drive state through any corrections that I might give her. She doesn’t need much either. Usually just a “try again” or “wrong” and she will yield. I don’t think of that as being soft because she doesn’t stress or shut down. She keeps working and her attitude is unaffected by being wrong.

Both dogs are very biddable and love to please, but the softer one is definitely harder to train for competition.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ecb515 said:


> Thank you! This is a great explanation. Your instinct was correct: I did assume 'soft' was a negative. I got the vibe from that term that you had to be really gentle and not firm with training, or that you could accidentally correct too sharply or used the wrong approach and set training back a long way.


Depending on the dog you could slow your training success by being too harsh, but I don't advocate for harsh corrections anyway. Most dogs are much happier to work with you and learn if training isn't a series of punitive corrections. If you have a soft dog and your training style is a lot of yelling and easily becoming frustrated, neither of you are going to get what you want either. 
I had a dog some years ago that was the biggest hard head. He was one of those that would take your command as a suggestion and required a lot more work to get him to comply. He was so smart, but he was his own dog and he wanted input on things. 😂
My older golden is 11 and what I would call a soft dog. If you are harsh with her, she gets hurt feelings. She doesn't stop trying to please but you can easily see her displeasure at having not succeeded on her first try. She works flawlessly with a calm, fair trainer. But a gruff, or testy person affects her mood visibly. 
There is nothing wrong with a soft dog at all. But you have to know your personality too, if you're one who becomes impatient easily, or are quick to anger or experience frustration, a dog with a soft personality isn't likely to be your best match. If you're chill, you'll do fine.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> I disagree with that description of soft. Yielding to corrections is not being soft, it’s being biddable.
> 
> To me, soft can be a negative trait. I prefer to use biddable when describing Goldens as a breed. I have one dog that I consider to be soft and one that I don’t think is very soft at all, but she’s biddable. The soft one shuts down and really has trouble with being wrong. One error will spawn more errors as he gets more and more stressed. I don’t even correct him sometimes, but if he knows what he should have done, he’ll start to stress.
> 
> ...


Agree... a very soft dog will shut down very quickly not just over corrections, but perceived corrections (anything between repeating an exercise without rewards to you looking unhappy). Shutting down means a dog responding slower or not at all. Or getting frenzied, I should add.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

PalouseDogs said:


> That said, they are definitely a split breed. If you want a good obedience prospect, your best bet is a pedigree with a lot of close-up, higher-level OB, agility, and/or field/hunt titles.


Split by level of intelligence? 




ArkansasGold said:


> To me, soft can be a negative trait. I prefer to use biddable when describing Goldens as a breed. I have one dog that I consider to be soft and one that I don’t think is very soft at all, but she’s biddable. The soft one shuts down and really has trouble with being wrong. One error will spawn more errors as he gets more and more stressed. I don’t even correct him sometimes, but if he knows what he should have done, he’ll start to stress.


This is how I define soft and it is a very negative trait in a working dog or any dog IMO.

Sensitive is not the same as soft. Sensitivity is a sign of intelligence, a dog that requires little correction or praise. A dog that wants to do the right thing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Split by level of intelligence?


If your dog has an OTCH before he's 4, but is 9+ years old and still can't be let off leash because he will run for the hills.... I'm debating if that's a smart and biddable dog.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> If your dog has an OTCH before he's 4, but is 9+ years old and still can't be let off leash because he will run for the hills.... I'm debating if that's a smart and biddable dog.


A dog of any age that can't be let of leash, "because he will run for the hills", is poorly trained, If such a dog had obedience titles, it would say something about the value of the titles.


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## GoldenGirlz (Nov 15, 2021)

I wouldn't call them soft at all. "Soft" to me is a Border Collie that hunkers down or quits and goes home because it thinks you're upset with it. I think Labs tend to be more headstrong, some verging on the knotheaded. A good Golden wants to please, but is confident. And don't ask me about Setters


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## ecb515 (10 mo ago)

GoldenGirlz said:


> I wouldn't call them soft at all. "Soft" to me is a Border Collie that hunkers down or quits and goes home because it thinks you're upset with it. I think Labs tend to be more headstrong, some verging on the knotheaded. A good Golden wants to please, but is confident. And don't ask me about Setters


...well now I kinda want to know about Setters 😂

That all makes sense, thank you very much!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

GoldenGirlz said:


> I think Labs tend to be more headstrong, some verging on the knotheaded.


Poorly bred dogs of are often knotheads. Well bred dogs are often owned by knotheads.
There is nothing breed specific about either situation.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> A dog of any age that can't be let of leash, "because he will run for the hills", is poorly trained, If such a dog had obedience titles, it would say something about the value of the titles.


Just like a dog needing to wear a zap collar when let off leash indicates a poorly trained dawg?  

Sorry, held back a couple days but in the end couldn't resist - LOL.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Just like a dog needing to wear a zap collar when let off leash indicates a poorly trained dawg?


Yes, that would be a poorly trained dog.

Here is the water blind from the third series of a recent field trial. A little over 400 yards. and a good example of what a well trained retriever is capable of. The dogs had to be guided past the first pond and entering the next at a very acute angle, then onto a point with cattails that was heavily scented by dragging a bag of wet ducks around. The dogs had to be cast back into the water to the bird another 50 yards to the blind on the pond dike. 
Very few dogs did the blind well. 
Every dog was brought to the line off leash and returned to the handler when called and nobody even gave it a second thought.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Yes, that would be a poorly trained dog.
> 
> Here is the water blind from the third series of a recent field trial. A little over 400 yards. and a good example of what a well trained retriever is capable of. The dogs had to be guided past the first pond and entering the next at a very acute angle, then onto a point with cattails that was heavily scented by dragging a bag of wet ducks around. The dogs had to be cast back into the water to the bird another 50 yards to the blind on the pond dike.
> Very few dogs did the blind well.
> Every dog was brought to the line off leash and returned to the handler when called and nobody even gave it a second thought.


You understand this is a dog that knows his job and is thoroughly obedient in the "working area". 

I could share many examples of the dogs I was referring to who win 200 scores in obedience (ie perfect scores) - in the "working area". And these 200 scores are not cheesed or accomplished at a novice level. They are done at a very high level where there are many finite exercises to lose 1/2 points here or there. Owner and dogs in these cases are well known and judged more harshly than the average owner. These same dogs can not be let loose off leash in places that they do associate with working because they will run for the hills. Some of these dogs also are field dogs who have accomplished many field titles. <= These are the dogs I was referring to. And basically with some trainers, being highly trainable is not as important as the toolbox the trainers use to train the dogs. Toolboxes include methods, but primarily also the trainer's experience.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> You understand this is a dog that knows his job and is thoroughly obedient in the "working area".


I own a couple of them so yes, I understand.
Do you understand that the "working area" for a field trial retriever could be just about any outdoor setting, including "the hills"?



Megora said:


> Some of these dogs also are field dogs who have accomplished many field titles.


What dogs and what "field titles"? Please don't say JH or WCX.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> I own a couple of them so yes, I understand.
> Do you understand that the "working area" for a field trial retriever could be just about any outdoor setting, including "the hills"?
> 
> 
> What dogs and what "field titles"? Please don't say JH or WCX.


Prove the above.  Take your golden and lab out into a place you have never trained and turn them loose without a zap collar. Bonus points if it's a wide open field with birds or other animals out there + a lake nearby. <= I can do this with my guys, but I know people who do not trust their dogs in those situations.

MH+ type field titles, including those dogs with * next to their names. Believe it or not, the obedience sport isn't dumbed down compared to field. Many people who do obedience also do field.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

ecb515 said:


> ....When it comes to training and obedience, are Goldens different from other sporting breeds, and if so, how?


With dogs, it helps tremendously to think about the job they were originally bred to do. Generally, you can break down the traits into small pieces to see what the breed and typically the individual will be like. It's really fascinating and more people should do it before they just randomly buy a dog to live with for 12 years: learn about the job. 

The sporting dogs are usually such loved pets because they were bred to work with people. The gundogs who stayed close until sent to retrieve and then return to deliver to hand typically want to work closely with people and be very partnership oriented. Dogs that were bred to range out in farther areas to search and point birds (Pointers) are still people loving but a bit more independent because they had to be - they quarter huge areas on their own while still keeping an eye on the hunter - they do their job and wait on the person to respond, it's a partnership but not as closely intertwined. Now think about herding dogs - they are a bit more independent, in a working situation they would be called on to make more executive decisions if they are in a spot out of sight or earshot from the shepherd. They have a tendency to bark and nip at your heels when playing because that is inbred from original working traits needed to maintain authority over moving livestock. 

Now go back to Retrievers, Goldens are successful in obedience and a delight to live with because they want to work closely with people. They have something in their make up that gives them a higher desire to do whatever it takes to please their human partner. Not every single Golden is guaranteed to be like that. Breeders who don't select for that trait will eventually lose it. But in general, you will find that an easier dog to learn to train for obedience is going to be highly motivated to do anything as long as they can do it with their person. Retrievers tend to be highly food motivated which can make it easier to use treats as a reward in training to keep them focused. A nice Golden who you develop a bond with will fool you into thinking you're a pretty decent dog trainer when in actuality you've just learned to work with a very biddable canine partner. 

For a first dog, look for a breeder who is focused on producing nice moderate Goldens, dogs who they do multiple things with rather than just hyper focused on winning one sport, (whether that's conformation or agility). It's easier to learn to drive on a honda than a ferrari or big boat of a cadillac. And be sure you're prepared to make your puppy your top priority for the first year or two. If you do it the right way, bonding with and training a Golden puppy is mostly a full time project for a working person, especially if it's a single dog household.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Prove the above.  Take your golden and lab out into a place you have never trained and turn them loose without a zap collar. Bonus points if it's a wide open field with birds or other animals out there + a lake nearby. <= I can do this with my guys, but I know people who do not trust their dogs in those situations.


I’m heading out to do exactly that in a few minutes. Training in Texas roughly 900 miles from home. Training in a new place today.
in the fall I’ll be hunting lots of wide-open spaces and not worrying about my dogs running off.



Megora said:


> MH+ type field titles, including those dogs with * next to their names. Believe it or not, the obedience sport isn't dumbed down compared to field. Many people who do obedience also do field.


There are very good dogs with MH titles. Unfortunately there are also many very poorly trained dogs with MH titles that they do not deserve. I have no idea what MH+ is.
* is a Golden thing that means nothing.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> I disagree with that description of soft. Yielding to corrections is not being soft, it’s being biddable.
> 
> To me, soft can be a negative trait. I prefer to use biddable when describing Goldens as a breed. I have one dog that I consider to be soft and one that I don’t think is very soft at all, but she’s biddable. The soft one shuts down and really has trouble with being wrong. One error will spawn more errors as he gets more and more stressed. I don’t even correct him sometimes, but if he knows what he should have done, he’ll start to stress.
> 
> ...


It's all about perspective. Compared to other breeds, they could be considered soft. Many Goldens aren't good with harsh correction. Pilot is one that people consider soft. I think he's extremely biddable. I've had people compliment our relationship and others call him a mama's boy or soft or....well....you were there!  

Pilot is happy doing pretty much anything as long as we're together!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> I have no idea what MH+ is.


It's dogs who keep entering MH to add ten million "legs".  

I've no real opinion on any of this. I think a lot of stuff with dogs is conditioning. And to be honest, sometimes I'm unsure of where the difference lies between conditioning and the brass tacks with some dogs. Me personally I think a trained dog should be biddable off leash. I have dogs who have been conditioned from early on to stay close and pay attention - I "think" they are also just very good dogs naturally as well. But I have done things differently with these dogs vs dogs I had way back as a teenager who basically were 5-7 years old before I trusted them off leash. I don't know the difference at this point. 

Just came back from a family visit where my dogs were off leash in the house we visited and then were off leash in the unfenced community park behind the house and while they ran football field type distances away from me, they veered around and came back when I called. <= again, this is a combination of training + the dogs are naturally good dogs. How much of one vs the other, don't know or care.

My sister also visiting with her dog had to keep him on leash in the house and outside because his mind completely shuts down when around other dogs or simply off leash. Different breed, but in specifics is very much like those early goldens I had who couldn't be trusted until they were pushing senior years. My sister raised him like I raised mine.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

nolefan said:


> For a first dog, look for a breeder who is focused on producing nice moderate Goldens, dogs who they do multiple things with rather than just hyper focused on winning one sport, (whether that's conformation or agility). It's easier to learn to drive on a honda than a ferrari or big boat of a cadillac. And be sure you're prepared to make your puppy your top priority for the first year or two. If you do it the right way, bonding with and training a Golden puppy is mostly a full time project for a working person, especially if it's a single dog household.


Good advise. Although, I have been focusing on one sport. Obedience is a HUGE focus right now but we also do rally, agility, tricks, and field for fun when we can. Still don't believe I'm giving up a field day for an obedience trial! LOL


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Me personally I think a trained dog should be biddable off leash.


A dog that cannot be trusted off leash is an untrained dog.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

SRW said:


> A dog that cannot be trusted off leash is an untrained dog.


What I think Kate is getting at is that there are a lot of one-dimensional dogs out there. Both in field and in performance. They are really good at the owner’s chosen sport, but have no manners to speak of. Their owners don’t teach them to behave normally, just do the one sport.

I strongly believe that good manners make a dog even better at whatever sport the owner chooses. It gives them discipline and impulse control.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think we got sidetracked today, but what I really was getting at was people may have different definitions of "trainability".

For most novice owners and people who may want an easy dog, they imagine having a dog that learns new things in one training (ie 3-10 reps and learned forever). These are dogs who quickly learn everything as they go. Take complex exercises like what you may find at the utility level in obedience - these are dogs who if you ask nicely, quickly gain concepts.

2-3 years ago when AKC obedience changed forever and they ditched the open stays in favor of pulling the most aggravating exercise from utility into open - I got why AKC did this (I think). It was about giving green dogs an opportunity to learn an easier form of the signal exercise prior to getting into utility where many many dogs were failing this exercise. But many trainers with other breeds were furious at AKC and literally accused the committee that developed the new exercise of pandering to the golden retriever and border collie people. The position that many of these folks take or have taken, is that goldens regardless of pedigree are not a difficult breed to train new exercises, even as an older dog.

Anyway - that is the standard definition of trainability. It's ease of teaching very complex exercises and concepts to a dog and seeing that light go on almost immediately.

There are other people though whose definition of trainability involves MORE than the dog's ability to learn. For them, trainability is less about obedience training and more about performance and scoring + the ability to just drill-drill-drill-drill a dog and have that dog either maintain stamina or gain stamina. Some traits which emerge in the types of dogs who fit the bill for these trainers and what they consider to be "trainable" - means that they would be more of a handful for a green or novice handler.

I think we have all seen the Malinois memes on FB and elsewhere - warning people away from getting a thoroughly wired (mentally) breed that needs to work. <= To me, you can sit back and question if trainability is a key trait for the breed - if not everyone can adequately train this dog?

I'm sorry if my thoughts and comments were or are all over the place. I think I mainly was sitting back and thinking of breeds I know of who are very high up in the obedience competition world - breeds like border collies, as example. And the owners of these breeds do not mince words when they warn others about their breed not being suited for all homes in quite a different way that we golden owners may do?

W/R to manners - I'm not the best to touch that.  Maegan's met my dogs in person. I was pretty honest about my Glee being a wild little man.  And at 2 going on 3 - he's still my wild card who is everything I wanted. My first competition dog had bad elbows and by age 5 could not jump even elbow height. So every dog that came after him had jumping or sky themes in their registered names for luck - because I wanted dogs who could fly with the least amount of effort. <B

And completely off topic - am heading outside because some bird in our woods sounds weirdly like a dog toy. So I'm thinking it might be somebody's pet bird...  Wish me luck at catching that. LOL. <= my mom scared it away because I think she's always afraid I'll take in another round of pet birds who live forever.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

As a border collie owner...they are a whole 'nother thing, that's for sure! 🤣


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

ecb515 said:


> So, the idea of dog training and obedience really fascinates me; I have a background in psychology and in teaching and it feels like a natural fit. Training is something I am looking forward to doing with our future pup--at the very least at the at-home level but perhaps on a sporting level too, eventually. I love the puppy training series(es) from the Standing Stone Kennels YouTube channel and have found them very informative, but I was wondering if the advice there is translatable to Goldens. I've read it mentioned that Goldens can be 'soft' or 'sensitive' with training but I do not fully understand what that means, or how training would need to be tweaked to accommodate this.
> 
> When it comes to training and obedience, are Goldens different from other sporting breeds, and if so, how?


Fascinating topic. I also am trying to understand the soft and sensitive stereotype. Here's my uneducated take. We had rattlesnake avoidance training and while mine understood the requirements at a lower level intensity-there was a Doberman who needed higher than average intensity - making him yelp. The trainer remarked he was really smart and therefore didn't require a stronger intensity. So in my untrained eye - I think it means it takes less "elbow grease/man power" to train them in comparison to other more stubborn breeds?


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

ArkansasGold said:


> I disagree with that description of soft. Yielding to corrections is not being soft, it’s being biddable.
> 
> To me, soft can be a negative trait. I prefer to use biddable when describing Goldens as a breed. I have one dog that I consider to be soft and one that I don’t think is very soft at all, but she’s biddable. The soft one shuts down and really has trouble with being wrong. One error will spawn more errors as he gets more and more stressed. I don’t even correct him sometimes, but if he knows what he should have done, he’ll start to stress.
> 
> ...



The soft one shuts down and really has trouble with being wrong.

Edits. Oops posted too fast. What signs/behaviors does your golden exhibit when he is stresses?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

MintChip said:


> The soft one shuts down and really has trouble with being wrong.
> 
> Edits. Oops posted too fast. What signs/behaviors does your golden exhibit when he is stresses?


If I verbally correct him, he’ll start slinking around like a border collie. Head low and tail wagging low. If we are in the middle of a trial and he does something wrong - whether I say anything or not - he’ll start to get frantic. He’ll leave me looking for the next thing to do and he has even left the ring a few times he’s gotten so stressed.

I should add that I’m not a harsh trainer. I don’t physically correct him for being wrong. He’s ok in training because I can reward him when he does something right immediately after being wrong. In trials however, especially in Rally Master, he doesn’t get the opportunity to try again and be right.

ETA: He also will start refusing to sit if he gets stressed and that just makes things spiral. If I could go back in time, I would just excuse us from the ring when he started doing that. It would be easier on both of us than having to do a Master run with like 17 instances of a sit and getting a slow response or refusal on most of them.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> If I verbally correct him, he’ll start slinking around like a border collie. Head low and tail wagging low. If we are in the middle of a trial and he does something wrong - whether I say anything or not - he’ll start to get frantic. He’ll leave me looking for the next thing to do and he has even left the ring a few times he’s gotten so stressed.
> 
> I should add that I’m not a harsh trainer. I don’t physically correct him for being wrong. He’s ok in training because I can reward him when he does something right immediately after being wrong. In trials however, especially in Rally Master, he doesn’t get the opportunity to try again and be right.


For some dogs a verbal correction can be harsher than a physical or collar correction.
Also, If a dog is not knowingly disobeying, Any form of correction will be taken harshly.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

TopBrass The Greatest Show on Earth “Circus” is owned by one of the trainers at my obedience school. Her name is Annette. She’s very nice. She brought in two of her Goldens for me to see with Circus being one of them and I can’t remember her other dog‘s name. Anyway, she was showing me how she handled each dog differently as she considered Circus more “soft” (so, it’s obviously not a negative) and her other dog as an example of hard. I was invited to see this along with an Australian Shepherd and her owner — the AS was considered soft and Logan not so much. 

Now, Annette is an exceptional trainer and she could get either dog to do whatever she wanted them to do. Both the Australian Shepherd’s owner and I had not competed. There was such a clear difference between her dog and mine. You could have peeped at her dog and it was a little concerned. Logan was more like, “I’m your Huckleberry.” Lol

My thoughts are I’m glad I have the dog I have. He’s very spirited and I like it. Not knocking a softer dog. My other thoughts watching Annette and her dogs go through skills was I have a long way to go. Lol


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

diane0905 said:


> TopBrass The Greatest Show on Earth “Circus” is owned by one of the trainers at my obedience school. Her name is Annette. She’s very nice. She brought in two of her Goldens for me to see with Circus being one of them and I can’t remember her other dog‘s name......My other thoughts watching Annette and her dogs go through skills was I have a long way to go. Lol


Small world, I'm a member at Charlotte Dog Training Club and love when Circus comes to town for our trial  I usually work the Utility ring and Circus has the CUTEST articles and bag, all painted up with a Circus theme  Such a sweet dog and you're right, she's such a great trainer. So fun to see them work together.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

nolefan said:


> Small world, I'm a member at Charlotte Dog Training Club and love when Circus comes to town for our trial  I usually work the Utility ring and Circus has the CUTEST articles and bag, all painted up with a Circus theme  Such a sweet dog and you're right, she's such a great trainer. So fun to see them work together.


I may come there eventually for classes. I saw the sign up for this most recent session and opted not to sign up because Logan is supposed to be going off with a conformation handler soon, but I wanted to sign up so badly. It looks like a great club.


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