# What's in your obedience training bag?



## Rastadog

I'm coming out of retirement. Went and found my training bag in the basement. I found, prong, flexi, 2 6ft leads, 30" heeling lead, slip lead, grab tabs, Joe Fiest dumbell, articles in a golf shoe bag, retrieving bumper, 3 year old water bottle and my drop ball. Can't find my braided show lead. Have any of you guys seen it?


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## AquaClaraCanines

I have an "obedience shelf" since I can't afford to train anywhere or enter shows LOL I don't have to have portable stuff.

My shelf has a cheap dumbell, multiple leashes, various prongs, chokers, clickers (ironic? LOL), paw wax (for the breed ring), show leads (breed ring), a long line, a whistle for the field, a field bumper, various orange reflective collars for the field, various gentle leaders that have come with owner turn in rescue dogs (devices which I give away left and right as I don't need them), and a random thing of white chalk, probably from my Bad-senji days (over ten years ago) as I'd never chalk a Whippet (or Basenji for that matter).


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## Goldendogx2

Treats, dumbell, utility gloves, long nylon line, 25' flexilead, beanbag (to encourage quick drops on recall), 2 braided leashes, prong collar, lip balm (for me and my show nerves),


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## Griffyn'sMom

I don't have one but your picture reminds me of the I Spy games. :


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## Rastadog

*My gloves, I knew something was missing*

I use the ball for the same reason you use the bean bag. Champagne corks work too.


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## LibertyME

Dumbell
Longline
30" lead
6' lead
Shark line
Clicker & Bait Bag & treats
Beanbag Toy and a tuggy
Notebook and pen
Dog's Pin Brush

Armband
Tums, 
TicTacs
lip balm
comb
bottle of water
Extra flat collar 
poopbags
copy of AKC papers..rabies certificate
My check list of other show stuff to remember (chair, crate, pail, shade, cloth etc..)


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## FlyingQuizini

I always have TOO MUCH stuff in my training bag. I needs to be cleaned out often!

It's not in front of me, but by memory, it has:

Show collar and braided show lead + spare of each of those.
Pinch collar with all but two prongs facing OUTWARD
Two nylon collars w/o any tags for agility
Slip lead for ASCA/NADAC when I can't go to the line on a collar at all
Armband + Spare
Attention belt/stick plus spare parts
Clicker
Chopstick for early attention stick work with new dogs
26' Flexi
Poop baggies
Bumper
Dokken
Braided fleece tugs of various lengths
Couple rubber balls
Couple balls on a rope
Training dumbbell (soon to be replaced by a Joe Feist dumbbell)
Metronome for keeping a consistent heeling pace
Articles live in their own bag -- but we're in early training, so some of them are tied down to peg boards.

Then I have another large bag with ring posts and pre-measured ring ropes, plus a PVC box for working all sorts of stuff. I also keep two clear acrylic sticks for fronts and finishes and two skewers to use with an acrylic stick over the broad jump to discourage flat jumping.


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## FlyingQuizini

BTW --- WOOHOO that you're coming out of retirement!


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## MaddieMagoo

Hey...wut is a Joe Fiest dumbbell? Some of you have said something about it. I don't know what it is!

My training bad includes:
Treats
Poop Bags
Flexi Leash
Braided Leather Leash
6 ft. Leather lead
Prong Collar...soon to be replaced by a micro-prong
Halti...used for attention...I'm using it wrong so we need our mentor to tell help us...again.
Clicker
Leather Pull tab
Probably cheese...that's been in there too long..
Dumbbell
LOTS AND LOTS OF TOYS!!! Our mentor believes in a motivational training...and playing after EVERY correction...so Maddie needs toys that are new and keep her interested!
*That's all I can think of right now...more later!


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## FlyingQuizini

Joe Fiest is a guy who makes really great custom dumbbells.

There's also Mel Stanley:
index


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## Rastadog

*reading eveyones list*

Makes me remember how much stuff I carried and what's missing, like gloves , toys and clickers. I always traveled light compared to the women I trained with. Sexist remark, flame suit on. Stephanie, you are using the tie down board which is Teri's method. Many of her students used Janice Demello's Round the clock instead and just didn't tell Teri. Me being one of them. Creekview a question and comment. How do you use a halti to teach attention? I understand release and play after a correction to maintain attitude. Toys work, but have you considered teaching your dog to speak? Giving your partner an excellent way to reduce the stress of a correction and act as an activator to resume training. Thanks for the replies


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## LibertyME

I forgot I also have a stopwatch


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## MaddieMagoo

Rastadog: I teach attention with the Halti because Maddie tends to drop her head. Since we have a new trainer...this is the way she teaches attention to her BC "Styx"...yes like the band. 

Before coming to this new trainer Maddie had NO attention! She is becoming more used to raising her head...but I'm using the Halti wrong (my trainer lives 2 hours away from us...so we get to see her about every 2 months and we e-mail back and forth...so she said to hold off on the Halti until we could meet again.)

Maddie already has a barking issue...and I don't want more barking...thanks for the input though!


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## FlyingQuizini

I've seen people using the Halti for attention out here... using it to physically orient the dog's head upward rather than using food on a stick and working up to the attention belt/armband, etc. I can't think of the gal who I think teaches the Halti method out here... she's an older woman... shows Rotties... Grrr. Bugs me that I can't think of her name... Ack!

I'm not familiar with the Round the Clock method. I've heard of it, but haven't seen it in play - at least I don't think so. I have a friend who trains with Janice and she was using squeeze cheese to train articles. Is that part of it?

I did the speak on cue with my Whippet and it was great for reving her up. I haven't put it on Quiz yet. It can sometimes be a hard behavior to regulate and he's just as happy to release up to a toy -- and he needs no revving up! Haha!

-S


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## Rastadog

*Squeeze cheese is The Round the Clock*

Yup ,you use the cheese for scent at first, the number of atricles, the amount of cheese and where they are in the pile change as you become more advanced. The halti thing is new to me but I' ve been out of the game for 5 years. When I taught attention I used a prong, short lead and string cheese in my hand and then in my mouth, The pieces in my mouth being big enough for the dog to see. If you train the speaking in the right way You should be able to turn it on and off. Teri teaching me to get Marley to speak was the thing that improved her attitude in the ring and in training the most. It's not just about the action but giving them a voice to express themselves. They can blow off stress and it activates them too. This may not be for Quiz but maybe a student who has a worried dog who's into themselves. Take a timid dog in a controled group setting who learns to speak in that setting and you will see a more confident dog.


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## Gwen

My bag has all of the "usual" stuff as posted on previous posts but I also have a number of water bottles and a box of granola bars for when I'm on the road. I travel
1 3/4 hours year way every Tuesday for my obedience classes and it's after work so the evenings are a real RUSH! Dinner usually consists of a granola bar & a bottle of water.


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## Rastadog

*you drive that far each way?*

Once a month I drove three hours with a training partner and I thought that was too much. Good for you!


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## MaddieMagoo

Hey I'm going to bump this up. For those of you past the or in the Utility stage...could you share what your article bags look like?


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## FlyingQuizini

Rasta has a pic of his article bag in the original post.


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## MaddieMagoo

That looks like a regular training bag to me.


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## FlyingQuizini

The bag with the articles in it is an article bag! Has mesh on the sides for ventilation.

What are you expecting an article bag to look like? Some have wooden boxes, some have plastic "bags" that are like hard, rigid plastic. Mine looks like Rasta's.


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## 4rdogs

We have 3 training bags don't know why  
Great question.. will have to put that out on our obedience list

Arm Band Holders
Rubber Bands
Poop Bags
Horse Shoe
Spray Bottle 
Sun Screen
Treats
Pull Tab
Tennis Ball Holder
Squeaky Toys
Loose change
Tennis Ball
Utility Gloves

Our scent articles are in the old wooden article box from the late 80's
We also have the hard plastic one & two newer ones

Still use our articles from the 80's

Everything else is in the Van


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## MaddieMagoo

FlyingQuizini said:


> The bag with the articles in it is an article bag! Has mesh on the sides for ventilation.
> 
> What are you expecting an article bag to look like? Some have wooden boxes, some have plastic "bags" that are like hard, rigid plastic. Mine looks like Rasta's.


I'm expecting some to look like this:





































I really like how this person makes these. Check out her website:

http://articlebags.tripod.com/index.htm

I'm thinking about getting one with Maddie's name on the side, embroidered. And also a Golden that is searching for the right article or etc. And I'm not sure maybe the purple for the color.


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## FlyingQuizini

Yeah, that's a neat article bag!

Guess you'll be looking for that waitressing job this summer!


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## LibertyME

I am waiting to get my Liberty's very first official/special article bag as a reward for earning her CDX....it is a training incentive for me!


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## FlyingQuizini

LibertyME said:


> I am waiting to get my Liberty's very first official/special article bag as a reward for earning her CDX....it is a training incentive for me!


I like that idea! Yup. Quiz and I aren't getting any "fancy schmancy" stuff until later, too. In fact, he showed for and earned his UCD in a regular bright orange buckle collar. At least my Whippet had a handmade braided leather collar and leash ensemble when she showed in Novice! 

We're still training on a hand-me-down dumbbell, too! It fits him well, but I won't order his custom one until we earn our CD. At that point, he should be trained through Open, so we'll just need to tidy up on the new dumbbell and be ready to go!

-Stephanie


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## MaddieMagoo

FlyingQuizini said:


> Yeah, that's a neat article bag!
> 
> Guess you'll be looking for that waitressing job this summer!


Ugh...I don't like waitressing...maybe working at my aunt's farm this summer. That is, if I get paid...my sister showed a cow and my parents aren't sure if she didn't get paid because she was working toward paying them back for letting her use the calf.

That is a GREAT idea...but I'd like to get it now as we'll be ordering the articles soon...as soon as this woman pays me for my horse halter I am selling. (Which makes me mad...she said this like last Thursday...:uhoh:.

I like the article bags sooo much there. Have to work for it!


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## FlyingQuizini

Well, eventually you need two sets of articles - a training set and a show set. So if I were you, I'd just get a regular, boring article bag for now for your training set and then get the fancy bag when you're closer to showing.


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## Jersey's Mom

I really should set up a training bag... I'm always rushing to gather everything up to get out the door for class!! I tend to be a little more organized for shows... grab a small backpack type bag and load it up with everything I'll need for the weekend, but looking at the types of setups you guys have it seems something more permanent would be helpful. I do, however, have a set of articles, gloves, and an article bag that I got for Christmas... so at least that helps!!

Caryn, those bags you posted do look very nice... but I agree with Steph, that you'd probably do better to pick up something more reasonable for your training equipment. Then you can reward yourself with that beautiful, personalized bag for achieving your CDX! 

Julie and Jersey


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## FlyingQuizini

Yeah, it really does help to have all the training gear in one consistent place. My "training bag" is a cheap, $7 duffel bag that I got from the local Army Surplus Store.


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## MaddieMagoo

Yeah...I think you should get a training bag Julie!! That would help loads! 

I should've asked for the articles for Christmas...but hey Easter is coming up...nothing wrong with dog stuff in it!! 

There are a few other designs that this woman has sent me...but me, deleted them!!! Which makes me VERY upset...well...maybe I didn't...I'll look and check for sure! They are VERY nice and I can't wait to get one. Maybe our CDX will come this year. We're working on the dumbbell with Linda, and working on some cool jumping. And we're still working on attention. This time it's hard core training. We've slapped the Halti on and because Maddie in the past ALWAYS dropped her head...this time SHE CAN'T!! Hopefullly in a month or so she'll have it down and we can start doing heeling patterns!!  

I'm just soo frustrated with it...which means its time to bring in the doctor on e-mail (Linda)...LOL!! Maybe it was just too late at night when I decided to do that...I'm talking like 8:45 PM or so...??


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## LibertyME

FlyingQuizini said:


> I like that idea! Yup. Quiz and I aren't getting any "fancy schmancy" stuff until later, too. In fact, he showed for and earned his UCD in a regular bright orange buckle collar. At least my Whippet had a handmade braided leather collar and leash ensemble when she showed in Novice!
> 
> We're still training on a hand-me-down dumbbell, too! It fits him well, but I won't order his custom one until we earn our CD. At that point, he should be trained through Open, so we'll just need to tidy up on the new dumbbell and be ready to go!
> 
> -Stephanie


Yep..I show Liberty on a very simple black, nylon flat collar...
Hand-me-down dumbell here too! It all banged up - has tape on the bar to make it fit her mouth better...

My 'training bag' is a zip-top fabric bag with three outside zippered pockets. My sweet, thoughtful, dog-loving, Mother In Law found it on sale and thought of me....
I was using a couple of Barnes and Noble cloth book bags that Bank of America was giving out for free!


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## FlyingQuizini

_And we're still working on attention. This time it's hard core training. We've slapped the Halti on and because Maddie in the past ALWAYS dropped her head...this time SHE CAN'T!!_

What are you using to make her *want* to keep her head up, other than to relieve the pressure from the Halti? Are you using the food stick at all?

I know you're excited about getting into the ring and showing, but the best piece of advice I can possible give you is to.... RELAX.... Stop worrying about when she'll be ready to do whatever and just train her. That is, if you want a top notch performance. If you just want to get in there and qualify, then go for it, but if you want true attention, attitude, etc. in your performance, it's going to take a long time ---- as in, maybe by the Fall you *might* be able to think about showing in Novice.

The food stick method works really well and what I like most is that it's giving the dog a wonderful reason to learn to keep his head up. I firmly believe that as you up the level of aversive (you use a Halti + prong, right?) then you'd better be willing to up the level of reinforcement.


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## MaddieMagoo

FlyingQuizini said:


> If you just want to get in there and qualify, then go for it, but if you want true attention, attitude, etc. in your performance, it's going to take a long time ---- as in, maybe by the Fall you *might* be able to think about showing in Novice.


I just don't see where you think "By the fall, she'll be ready". I think she'll be ready WAY WAY WAY before that. By the end of April or so. 

Anyway, I don't use the food stick and it isn't part of Linda's attention program, which is probably one of the better ones out there, as she clearly states it. 

Linda has this BC named Styx, and he had the same problem as Maddie, knows to look up but yet doesn't clearly get the concept as keeping it up. Before we ever met Linda, our old instructor NEVER told us how important attention is. Boy, do I know how important it is now!! THis halti is used as a corrector of the head to keep it up. I have the halti on her and a leather pull tab. I hold the pull tab right about by the clasp, and we walk in a big circle at a fast pace. I have the pull tab/Halit about waist level (because that's where my hand will be when heeling) and then she has to trot or prance along with me. Whenever she decides to give in and not have so much pressure on her head she will lift it up, and I give off pressure too and reward her IMMEDIATELY! I reward her "up" to the cookie, as the whole purpose of this Halti thing is to get the head up.

Yes, I do use a micro-prong in this case. The whole purpose of this is to keep her going. The prong is place just below the Halti on the head. The leash is then snapped on to the prong and it is across my body in the front. I have one finger in my pocket and when I walk my body uses the force from my legs to snap it or pop the prong. 

Get it??


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## FlyingQuizini

*I just don't see where you think "By the fall, she'll be ready". I think she'll be ready WAY WAY WAY before that. By the end of April or so.*

If you still lack consistent attention w/o the use of prong pops and Halti assistance, there's no way she'll be ready (at least what I consider ready) by April. And frankly, Fall may be pushing it.

Not trying to discourage you, just trying to get you to be realistic. That is, IF you want the kind of attention, attitude, etc. that I think you're going for. I've already said that Quiz and I have been training fairly consistently for FOUR YEARS - his whole life - and I'm just now starting to show him.... and I'm an experienced handler, and he's not my first obedience dog.

You may be able to qualify in April, and if that's your goal, more power to you. We all end up with the same title and nobody knows your scores unless you choose to tell them.

To get attention to hold up in the ring, you must first have it consistent outside of a ring (in training) and w/o the use of aids like the prong and Halti. Before I'd ever step into the ring at a show setting with a dog, I'd want the dog to be off all "props" and successfully heeling at matches (have you done any of those yet?), at shopping centers, around other people with dogs, at the park by the swingset and kids, etc.


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## FlyingQuizini

*I have the halti on her and a leather pull tab. I hold the pull tab right about by the clasp, and we walk in a big circle at a fast pace. I have the pull tab/Halit about waist level (because that's where my hand will be when heeling) and then she has to trot or prance along with me. Whenever she decides to give in and not have so much pressure on her head she will lift it up, and I give off pressure too and reward her IMMEDIATELY! I reward her "up" to the cookie, as the whole purpose of this Halti thing is to get the head up.*

Yes, I know exactly what you're doing. You're using the Halti as negative reinforcement. You apply pressure to the Halti (to keep her head up) and as soon as she raises her head (to relieve the pressure) that act is rewarding, as it provides relief from the pressure + you reward as well. That personally is not how I would choose to do it, as I don't like RELIEF to be the primary motivator for my dog. But two each is own, and if it's working for you (you'll know in time if it's working or not... and if it's not, don't be afraid to try something else) and not damaging the relationship with you and your dog, then rock on!

-S


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## MaddieMagoo

Linda says that if I do this EVERYDAY with Maddie for 20-30 minutes for about a month. She should have it by then. Her dog Styx was trained on this for 3 months, but he bucked and pitched WAY WORSE than Maddie ever did. I saw him this past weekend and you could NEVEr tell he did that, he prances with his head up and I would love to have him under my belt!  He doesn't have any title because he has a neroulogical problem. When he was born he probably stayed in the mother too long and didn't get enough oxygen. Poor guy, but he tries to please Linda as much as he can everyday! 

Not to be rude Steph, I just think sometimes you cut me down about Maddie, because she's not a "Tanbark"...I don't care I'd love to own one of those dogs someday, but I love Maddie just as much as any Golden out there. I root for the Goldens in whatever event I see them in. I just think that you can be harsh sometimes to me...like saying Maddie won't be ready by then, when you haven't even seen us work at all!! Maddie IS ready to take this on. Her recall is beautiful and the only problem is, is that her 'front' is a tad bit crooked. But, we CAN fix that. The only thing we need to change is her attention, and she knows HOW to heel. She CAN DO IT...no matter what person says she can't. I've expirienced from our old instructor telling me to "Get another dog" and saying if you want to be serious about this you'll have to get another dog. That is not acceptable in my world. 

Sorry, but I had to say that at some point. At times you can whirl around to be a nice person...but telling me that she isn't ready for it when you haven't seen her or me in person...says a lot about you. Linda's dog Ticket who is the OTCH and Multi HIT and HC dog, started his debut at 18 months...Maddie is four and has been training with Linda since June. Maddie ALSO has had expirience before meeting up with Linda. She had about a year of training there.

So...I still don't see where on Earth you're coming with this...but it's just my opinion.

By the way, we're heading down to a Fun Match the 13th of April for some Pre-Novice...she kicks butt in that class!!


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## Jersey's Mom

I obviously can't speak for Stephanie, and I don't know if there's some sort of history between you two, but reading her reply it didn't appear to me that she was trying to cut you down or insult Maddie. I think it's awful that you had a trainer who told you to get another dog and I think it's great you were able to find another trainer that believes in both you *and* Maddie. I can understand what Steph is saying though. Personally, I've never used any props (except for treats) that I can't use in the ring. Jersey has always trained with the same leash and collar (well, he outgrew his first one, but I got another exactly like it) that we use in the ring. I do own a prong, but I don't use it for training. And I've never used a Halti. I think the point she was trying to make, and I agree, is that it takes time to wean the dog off these props and get the same behavior consistently without them. Now I'm someone who goes in with no goal other than to qualify. I've been very lucky that Jersey has pulled of the scores he has... and it's far more a testament to him than it is to my training. But it has never seemed to me that just qualifying is good enough for you. If you're planning on pulling off the scores you are aiming for, I would agree that patience is key. Is April too soon? Is fall too long? I honestly don't know... but trying to rush this is just going to frustrate you and Maddie. 

One question: If you're doing a match in April, and expecting to be entering the ring for Novice shortly after that at real trials... why would you enter Pre-novice??? Personally I would take advantage of the opportunity to see how she holds up throughout the entire routine... it will give you a more realistic view of where you stand. JMHO.

Julie and Jersey


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## FlyingQuizini

CreekviewGoldens said:


> Linda says that if I do this EVERYDAY with Maddie for 20-30 minutes for about a month. She should have it by then. Her dog Styx was trained on this for 3 months, but he bucked and pitched WAY WORSE than Maddie ever did. I saw him this past weekend and you could NEVEr tell he did that, he prances with his head up and I would love to have him under my belt!  He doesn't have any title because he has a neroulogical problem. When he was born he probably stayed in the mother too long and didn't get enough oxygen. Poor guy, but he tries to please Linda as much as he can everyday!
> 
> Not to be rude Steph, I just think sometimes you cut me down about Maddie, because she's not a "Tanbark"...I don't care I'd love to own one of those dogs someday, but I love Maddie just as much as any Golden out there. I root for the Goldens in whatever event I see them in. I just think that you can be harsh sometimes to me...like saying Maddie won't be ready by then, when you haven't even seen us work at all!! Maddie IS ready to take this on. Her recall is beautiful and the only problem is, is that her 'front' is a tad bit crooked. But, we CAN fix that. The only thing we need to change is her attention, and she knows HOW to heel. She CAN DO IT...no matter what person says she can't. I've expirienced from our old instructor telling me to "Get another dog" and saying if you want to be serious about this you'll have to get another dog. That is not acceptable in my world.
> 
> Sorry, but I had to say that at some point. At times you can whirl around to be a nice person...but telling me that she isn't ready for it when you haven't seen her or me in person...says a lot about you. Linda's dog Ticket who is the OTCH and Multi HIT and HC dog, started his debut at 18 months...Maddie is four and has been training with Linda since June. Maddie ALSO has had expirience before meeting up with Linda. She had about a year of training there.
> 
> So...I still don't see where on Earth you're coming with this...but it's just my opinion.
> 
> By the way, we're heading down to a Fun Match the 13th of April for some Pre-Novice...she kicks butt in that class!!


Where I'm coming from is, if she doesn't have attention, then she's NOT ready for the kind of performance I think you're saying you want. Period. And I'd say that about ANY dog and ANY handler. I think good, solid, reliable attention takes a helluva lot longer to train than you realize. And there's nothing wrong with that.

You talk all the time about wanting to make her an OTCH dog. Solid, reliable attention is the foundation for that. You said yourself that she doesn't presently have it. If you train everyday with the halti and prong for a month, that still won't likely mean that you'll maintain the attention as well w/o the props. It's fine if you don't believe me. You'll discover it for yourself when the time comes.

For the life of me, I can't understand where you came up with my cutting you down b/c Maddie isn't Tanbark. I don't care where she's from. I think ANY DOG can excel in obedience with enough hard work. My first obedience dog was a WHIPPET for cryin' out loud! We worked hard, took our time, and earned our titles with very nice scores - all above 190 and even with a 197.5.

It's great that you have a trainer who believes in you. All I've ever tried to say is don't rush it. I'd be telling anyone training for obedience that, if they are still trying to get consistent attention *in training*, it's going to be a LONG TIME before they are ready to show. I don't need to see the dog to have that be my belief. Based in what you're telling me -- lack of attention in training -- combined with my experience of knowing how much the ring changes things (which you don't really have yet), my OPINION is that you have a fair amount of training ahead - unless you just want to qualify, which is fine. You don't have to have heeling with attention. A dog can lack attention and still manage to "phone in" a decent enough heel position to qualify. Plenty of people do that - and if that's what you want, that's great - get out the there and start showing.

Again, if you just want to qualify, then I'm sure you're right - and you'll be in the ring right quick. But I'll stand by my statement that, if you're still not getting the attention you want consistently in training w/o the use of a prong or a halti, you won't get it in the ring. Maybe you need to go ahead and show so that you discover that for yourself. 

-S


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## FlyingQuizini

BTW, IMO it's far better to be gracious and err on the side of "we need more training" than to go around saying how you're gonna kick butt here and there and "knock flies dead along the way" on your road to OTCH. I think sometimes you talk awfully big for someone who has very little experience in the game.

Just had to say that.... and boy does it make me feel old!


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## goldenmomof3

One of those red plastic bats so I can knock them over the head because they are not obedient :bowrofl:

Just kidding folks!! I actually have ONE that is obedient. I enjoy doing field work, agility, and conformation, but do not like obedience. I do not have the patience for it. Sorry .... good luck coming out of retirement.


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## Jersey's Mom

goldenmomof3 said:


> One of those red plastic bats so I can knock them over the head because they are not obedient :bowrofl:
> 
> Just kidding folks!!


That made me laugh!! My current instructor tells me all the time she has a special 2x4 reserved especially for goldens, but she keeps forgetting to bring it! 

Julie and Jersey


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## MaddieMagoo

FlyingQuizini said:


> BTW, IMO it's far better to be gracious and err on the side of "we need more training" than to go around saying how you're gonna kick butt here and there and "knock flies dead along the way" on your road to OTCH. I think sometimes you talk awfully big for someone who has very little experience in the game.
> 
> Just had to say that.... and boy does it make me feel old!


Stephanie, you yourself has talked 'pretty big' for doing this the same amount of years that I have. And yet...neither you nor I knows everything. 

Also, you say that the Halti is a 'prop'. But WHY on Saturday did I see Styx WITHOUT THE HALTI...with his head IN PERFECT POSITION. And I even got to heel him MYSELF!! Hmm...answer that one for me, will ya? There IS A WAY to wean them off of it...and as the Halti becomes less dependent upon.


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## FlyingQuizini

CreekviewGoldens said:


> Stephanie, you yourself has talked 'pretty big' for doing this the same amount of years that I have. And yet...neither you nor I knows everything.
> 
> Also, you say that the Halti is a 'prop'. But WHY on Saturday did I see Styx WITHOUT THE HALTI...with his head IN PERFECT POSITION. And I even got to heel him MYSELF!! Hmm...answer that one for me, will ya? There IS A WAY to wean them off of it...and as the Halti becomes less dependent upon.


I do believe I have been in the obedience game longer than you have, and I certainly have put more titles on dogs than you have, and I definitely have far more dog training experience than you have. The fact that you would even say that, not only strikes me as disrespectful, but also shows me that you seem to be unwilling to listen to people who are trying to be helpful if they aren't saying exactly what you want to hear. That's too bad.

It also seems as though you are unable to grasp what I'm trying to say regarding the need to wean off props. I never said you can't wean off props. I said you need to successfully wean off props long before you venture into the show ring. If your instructor's dog was doing nice attention heeling minus the Halti, then good for her - she's weaned him off that particular tool in that particular environment. 

You often present yourself as though you have all the answers. That's an unfortunate attitude, especially for a junior handler. You also sometimes post with an *attitude* that's quite unnecessary, and frankly, inappropriate on a forum where you're interacting with adults. Your paragraph above regarding Styx and the Halti reads as though it's dripping with sarcasm. You might want to reconsider that, as it can be quite off-putting.


----------



## missmarstar

Caryn didn't anyone ever tell you to respect your elders? As we told you earlier in chat, if you don't want to listen to any advice from someone who is experienced and just trying to help you be the best trainer you can be, then don't ask for it, or simply don't follow that advice. Stephanie is just offering advice to help you, and instead of thanking her you turn into an obnoxious teenager.


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## MaddieMagoo

I didn't ask advice from her this time. It all started out as I said if people could post pictures of their Utility article bag. 

No, I don't have ALL the answers, but I try to help others out with the questions they have. Sorry, if I sound snooty at times, but this kind of makes me mad when someone makes remarks about my dog and how I train. And when they say she's ready and not ready, for one thing they haven't even seen this dog on a You Tube video or in a picture...etc. 

This is my opinion-

To me, Stephanie hasn't had enough expirience, Linda has had 18-19 years with multiple dogs, including those once in a lifetime ones, to those who seem inmossible to train. I can say that I haven't had enough expirience either, I'm not trying to single anyone out, but I'm just saying that she's trained over 10 dogs and still is getting and training more. Linda NEVER had the perfect dog, her new puppy seems perfect to me and he learns fast. I just think in order to have expirience in this you need to be exposed to many many types of dogs and know what to do when a problem arises. 

I also will apologize to you Stephanie. Looking back on what I said last night wasn't nice. I'm sorry I said that to you, I just sometimes take it the wrong way, as I have been picked on my 4 yeras of middle school, I take things for granted now, and I also just take things the wrong way. I'm sorry and I hope you will forgive me. This is a tough time for me, I'm worried about my parents financial situation and wether or not I'll be able to show in the future.

So...like I said, I'm sorry. But just please don't tell me in the future, that Maddie and I won't show until you think we're ready. Maddie is a talented dog and Linda says we can get that OTCh, we just have to beat out the others I saw this weekend. I can make my decisions for myself and I can handle it.

Caryn


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## FlyingQuizini

My opinion is that you certainly don't have enough experience to spout off at the mouth the way you do, and the constant "name dropping" of your coach and her dog has nothing to do with you and Maddie and comes across as immature. If, after all I've said, you still can't even entertain the idea that I might have offered a piece of information that could be helpful to you, then I don't see the point in posting. It's too bad that you can't even manage something to the effect of saying you understand the need to train for consistency around distractions - you just think you'll have that accomplished sooner than I do.

I never said you and Maddie won't show until *I* think you're ready. I gave you my honest opinion of what it takes for most *any* obedience dog to be ready. You don't have to agree with or like my opinion, but you certainly can't stop me from having one.

Thank you for apoligizing for being rude.

I have no doubt you'll show when you feel you're ready. Best of luck with your show career. Happy Training!


----------



## Jersey's Mom

I think my question got a little lost in the conversation going on, so I hope you don't think me rude for repeating it, but I think it's an important question. If you're planning on being prepared to enter trials by the end of the month, why would you enter in Pre-novice in the match coming up in April? I don't feel that entering a class that is designed to be much easier is the appropriate way to prepare for what you will face in Novice. Just my opinion, but wouldn't it be a better use of your time to actually assess how Maddie is doing with ALL the exercises you will be expecting her to perform (to your standards) in a real trial? 

Julie and Jersey


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## Rastadog

*Sounds like Maddie doesn't clearly understand*

that you expect her to keep her head up looking at you. That requires trust that comes with consistant training. Instead of shopping for fancy article bags you could spend 5-10 min a day working on stationary attention and your first step. I have never see anyone train attention with a halti. My guess is it makes Maddie worry. Not a good way to get a happy dog in the ring. You need to find a way to motavate her so she wants to look at you without worry or fear.


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## MaddieMagoo

Thanks for the advice. But no thanks.

I have a trainer who knows how to use the Halti. Here is what she said in my e-mail I got today about making it 'fun'. 

From Linda:
There is simply no way to make this "fun" for her, just as there is no way to make this fun for you. The fun will come later when you realize that each time you work her she starts to give in sooner and sooner. 

Keep at it! I'm not kidding. This is going to take time and effort. This is where you discover what you're made of -- this is where you become a real dog trainer. You're trying to change Maddie's negative attitude about working and that's going to take some time. But in the end it's so very worth it! One day you'll win and then she won't say "no" anymore.

The only reason why she wants us to use the Halti, is because Maddie drops her head, and I don't know what to do/don't correct her for it. THis isn't a mean approach, it's called "dog training". 

I'm happy with my trainer and I am comfortable with her techniques. 

To Julie:

The only reason why I am signing up for Pre Novice, is because Linda told me to. She told my dad the reason as I was working with her, and didn't ask because I forgot, why Pre-Novice. Yes, it may sound like common sense...but I'll ask Linda that. 

Caryn


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## Jersey's Mom

CreekviewGoldens said:


> Thanks for the advice. But no thanks.
> 
> I have a trainer who knows how to use the Halti. Here is what she said in my e-mail I got today about making it 'fun'.
> 
> From Linda:
> There is simply no way to make this "fun" for her, just as there is no way to make this fun for you. The fun will come later when you realize that each time you work her she starts to give in sooner and sooner.
> 
> Keep at it! I'm not kidding. This is going to take time and effort. This is where you discover what you're made of -- this is where you become a real dog trainer. You're trying to change Maddie's negative attitude about working and that's going to take some time. But in the end it's so very worth it! One day you'll win and then she won't say "no" anymore.
> 
> The only reason why she wants us to use the Halti, is because Maddie drops her head, and I don't know what to do/don't correct her for it. THis isn't a mean approach, it's called "dog training".
> 
> I'm happy with my trainer and I am comfortable with her techniques.
> 
> To Julie:
> 
> The only reason why I am signing up for Pre Novice, is because Linda told me to. She told my dad the reason as I was working with her, and didn't ask because I forgot, why Pre-Novice. Yes, it may sound like common sense...but I'll ask Linda that.
> 
> Caryn


First of all, your first line completely sums up what everyone has been saying to you in this thread. I don't understand why you refuse to treat anyone who offers you advice with respect. You don't have to follow their advice, but take yourself off your little soapbox and find a way to respond that isn't condescending. You have no place addressing anyone like that. I know it wasn't directed toward me, but I had to say that anyway. 

Second, I completely, 100%, vehemently disagree with your trainer. This SHOULD be fun for you and Maddie!! I don't know Linda, and I honestly don't care how many dogs she's brought through how many titles... I believe she is missing the point of this sport. It is about bonding with your pet. It should be enjoyable for both of you. And if you try to force your dog through this, with negative reinforcement, and make no effort to have fun with it... you're going to find yourself with a dog that shuts down on you. I think you're in for a long, hard road with this attitude... and if you continue to jump on the back of any person who offers you advice (which I fully expect you're going to do to me when you read this) you're just going to continue to burn bridges to people who could help you get where you want to be. It's a shame. 

Julie and Jersey


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## missmarstar

agreed... if its not fun for you or your dog, then why are you doing it?? doesn't make any sense.


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## MaddieMagoo

I'm going to e-mail Linda what you said about making it 'fun', Julie. She will not be happy about it. She knows this sport. Why would she preach about it at a seminar that your relationship is the ONLY thing you have when you go into the ring? She teaches me leadership and relationship 'boosters' when we go down to train with her. 


Rastadog:

I DO train Maddie everyday on this, Linda tells me to for about 20-30 minutes, or I set a limit of how many times she should give in, and then leave it on a good, happy note. Yes, I understand you don't know how this whole thing works, but I just can't take your advice,like I said, thank you!

Julie:

I re-read over the post on how you think that I was being snooty to Rastadog, I said thank you to her, I just can't use the advice because I have a good mentor, like everyone says I do when we go down there, they say that I'm lucky to have a good person like Linda. Linda *clearly* understand the point of Obedience, and so do I, she wouldn't be preaching to me about leadership, and Maddie's and my relationship, in e-mails. 

Here is the whole e-mail...maybe it'll give everyone a better idea?

"What Maddie did is to be expected. You're making her put in some effort and it's occurred to her to say no. She can't do that! She's not calling the shots you are. This move on her part is because you don't have the level of leadership over her that would compel her to work for you. It's because you guys are not a "team" yet.

Remember when I talked at my workshop about working with some dogs for 45 minutes before they even start to give in? Well, that's Maddie.

To answer your question, yes she did try to pull that with me. She tried to stop and I just dug in and kept going. I kept going until she gave in and moved with me. There is simply no way to make this "fun" for her, just as there is no way to make this fun for you. The fun will come later when you realize that each time you work her she starts to give in sooner and sooner. 

Keep at it! I'm not kidding. This is going to take time and effort. This is where you discover what you're made of -- this is where you become a real dog trainer. You're trying to change Maddie's negative attitude about working and that's going to take some time. But in the end it's so very worth it! One day you'll win and then she won't say "no" anymore.

I've already given you the tools to be successful. Work her just like on the video; head halter on a short lead in your left hand, and a prong on a longer leash in your right. The prong leash is stretched across your body and held in your right hand. Use your body to keep going, let your body take the pressure. Rememer to release and praise/play when she given is. Just keep doing until she does!"

***I'm not trying to be mean to everyone on this Forum, but it upsets me that you jump all over my back, when I was being nice, I said thanks for the advice, but no thanks, in fact, it wasn't really mean at all.***


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## Jersey's Mom

"Thanks, but no thanks," stated in just that way is never sincere. I'm sorry, but it's not. Now to say, "Thank you for your suggestion, but this seems to be working so far and I want to give it more time," is a very different statement as it actually shows you've given a person's suggestion a modicum of consideration. You've been training Maddie for less than 2 years (according to one of your previous posts) and yet you seem to believe you know it all. Again, I'm sorry, but you don't. Neither do I. That's why I am always greatful to people who offer me suggestions, whether or not I use them. If you'd like an example on how this is done, feel free to read my thread about Jersey holding his dumbbell. 

Honestly, Caryn, I don't need you to toss out threats about tattling on me to your instructor. It doesn't make a lick of difference to me whether she likes me or not. You show your age and lack of exerience in every post... and you come off much more like a spoiled child than a junior handler who is seeking out all the information she can find. I'm sorry that you have been picked on in the past... but you need to realize that this forum is not high school or middle school. It's comprised mostly of adults who want nothing more than to offer you advice based on their experiences. You don't have to agree with all the advice, you don't have to follow any of it, but you should really learn to take it graciously. That's a life skill that will come in very handy for you.

I haven't changed my position, and I won't. Training should be fun for your dog. Yes, you need to develop leadership... absolutely. But that can be done while continuing to ensure that the dog enjoys him/herself. I'm not even saying that this method with the halti and the prong is wrong... honestly, I wouldn't use it, but as I always say I'm no expert... but if you don't find some way to ensure that Maddie is enjoying herself and isn't becoming overly stressed she will very likely shut down on you. I have no problem agreeing to disagree-- it's very often a necessity when discussing training methods-- but you need to learn that there are other ways of doing things and that what your trainer tells you isn't the "Bible truth" and only way to get results. It's unfortunate that you're shutting yourself off from even considering and cataloging (sp?) alternative training methods for possible future use so early in your career. 

Julie and Jersey


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## Rastadog

*Too Funny*

Your trainer has border collies. They learn and unlearn differently than goldens. You have a dog with an attitude problem. Work her for 20-30 min a day on a halti and your issues, not hers will get worse. You once made fun of a NOI winner because you didn't like the way that team heeled. Your right, I don't know how this whole thing will work. Good luck! Alex


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## Rastadog

*Enough it my bedtime and it's a two dog nite, zero and windy*

I haven't changed my position, and I won't. Training should be fun for your dog. Yes, you need to develop leadership... absolutely. But that can be done while continuing to ensure that the dog enjoys him/herself. I'm not even saying that this method with the halti and the prong is wrong... honestly, I wouldn't use it, but as I always say I'm no expert... but if you don't find some way to ensure that Maddie is enjoying herself and isn't becoming overly stressed she will very likely shut down on you. I have no problem agreeing to disagree-- it's very often a necessity when discussing training methods-- but you need to learn that there are other ways of doing things and that what your trainer tells you isn't the "Bible truth" and only way to get results. It's unfortunate that you're shutting yourself off from even considering and cataloging (sp?) alternative training methods for possible future use so early in your career. 

Julie and Jersey[/QUOTE]

I skipped the first part which I agree with. The second part of this post has an even more important message. It's about improving your relationship with your dog by having fun . Do you want her to work because she has to or because she wants to?


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## MaddieMagoo

Rastadog said:


> Your trainer has border collies. They learn and unlearn differently than goldens. You have a dog with an attitude problem. Work her for 20-30 min a day on a halti and your issues, not hers will get worse. You once made fun of a NOI winner because you didn't like the way that team heeled. Your right, I don't know how this whole thing will work. Good luck! Alex


I think Maddie's attitude will change, she's so used to calling the shots, she thinks that this should be her call...and not mine. Serious trainers never have their dog in charge and they don't have them saying..."Oh, I'm lazy today, can we not train mom?"

I didn't make fun of how they heeled, it just seemed lazy and not pizazzy to me...that's all. 

Trust me, I'm under the guidance of an excellent trainer who has had much more expirience than you guys do. I can agree that I haven't been doing this as long as some of you on here, but what I don't agree is that she's a bad trainer, just because you prefer one method over hers, tough noogies, I read the books she gives me, but I can't incorporate the methods you guys give on here. It just doesn't fit into my training style. Which is all motivational...and no popping and what nots...I don't do that anymore....nor am I abusive.

Julie:

I'm just going to ignore you. I don't care what you think will work and what won't work. I told my dad this tonight, and he was just about as upset as I was, he told me to ignore what you say, and he said it's not right that you just shut me down like that, nor is it fair for you to say this method won't work, because you praticularly dont like it. What I expirenced before we met up with Linda, was way worse than this Halti method. My dad also said that some people live in a 'dreamy world' and everything has to be perfect, and life isn't perfect, and people don't have to be nice. And this past Saturday this OTCH TRAINER, gave her dog a correction (oh no!), it wasn't a nice one either, but he's an OTCH dog and should know better, and he didn't do what he did, ever again. You don't understand how much Linda has changed Maddie, from where she was in June of last year. Linda does everything for me, and I give her soo much credit, I even get free lessons from her, because I'm a Jr., and I REALLY appreciate that. There were about 6 people where we were on Saturday and they ALL said how great Linda was, I don't think she changed her independent dog around, and my how they are winning today. 

I don't know if you don't understand this part, I am talking the WHOLE time to Maddie during our attention work, I'm not boring and I play, play, play with her when we're done. She is wagging her tail and is happy, and she never shuts down. Linda even noticed it the last time we worked with the Halti...and Maddie was happy go-lucky that day...as same as last Saturday.

You know what? I'm just going to stop posting on this Family Feud thread, and get on with my dog. I say...give it a month and a half, and we'll prove to you guys that we can do this...we'll make a video of how far we are...and see if this method really does the trick. Will you guys believe in me then?

Caryn


----------



## Ninde'Gold

Kanine Krunchies can't be beat, they make each meal a special treat.
You can conquer any feat, if you eat Kanine Krunchies!!

So do what all the good dogs do,
You'll make it last the whole day through,
You can be a champion too!
If you eat Kanine Krunchies!!


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## missmarstar

maybe if your parents didnt encourage your being a spoiled brat, you would learn to act like more of an adult.

let it be known here and now.... no one give Caryn any advice whatsoever because she knows everything about everything already.


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## MaddieMagoo

missmarstar said:


> maybe if your parents didnt encourage your being a spoiled brat, you would learn to act like more of an adult.
> 
> let it be known here and now.... no one give Caryn any advice whatsoever because she knows everything about everything already.


Marlene...I don't get everything I want, and we're not rich...and I'm not spoiled to death...like the girls in my class who gave me ****.

No, I don't know everything...I'm not that smart. And you think that I'm not mature? Pish posh...look at what you're saying.


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## Jersey's Mom

Here's the problem Caryn-- You can't even seem to decide on an argument. You say that training "isn't supposed to be fun," then you say you "play, play, play" and make it fun for her. If you are, then more power to you! I outright said in my last post that I wasn't saying this method was "wrong" (I did state that I wouldn't use it, but that's my personal opinion, and I'm entitled to it whether you like it or not). That is not intended to insult Linda. That is not intended to insult you. It's just not the type of training I do with my dog. What I DID say is that you have to make the session fun. You now, 2 posts later, say you do that. Then good for you... it seems we actually do agree. 

I don't see why you take everything as an attack. That is, after all, how this whole thing started. Let me say this again... you don't have to follow anyone's advice, but learning to accept it graciously is a life skill that will come in very handy throughout your life. It would be a very good idea to note the suggestions you are given and stock them away somewhere. You may never use them with Maddie, but I would imagine you will have other dogs in your life... and different dogs sometimes need different techniques. 

Just as with your trainer, it really doesn't bother me if you feel the need to complain about me to your parents. Perhaps next time you do, though, you could not twist my words. I haven't shut you down... I tried to give you a warning that if you do not make the training session fun in some way (which apparently you do, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue with me about this) that you run the risk of Maddie shutting down on you. I don't understand where the issue is? 

You are right about one thing. It's hardly worth even continuing this discussion. You can't argue with someone who knows it all. :doh: If you really think I'm all that mean, then by all means ignore me. But realize this... everything I have said thus far has been intended to be constructive. I haven't even begun to get mean... and I don't really intend to in the public forum. I wish you the best of luck with your showing career... 

Julie and Jersey

Julie and Jersey


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## FlyingQuizini

CreekviewGoldens said:


> I think Maddie's attitude will change, she's so used to calling the shots, she thinks that this should be her call...and not mine. Serious trainers never have their dog in charge and they don't have them saying..."Oh, I'm lazy today, can we not train mom?"
> 
> I didn't make fun of how they heeled, it just seemed lazy and not pizazzy to me...that's all.
> 
> *Trust me, I'm under the guidance of an excellent trainer who has had much more expirience than you guys do.* I can agree that I haven't been doing this as long as some of you on here, but what I don't agree is that *she's a bad trainer*, *just because you prefer one method over hers, tough noogies*, I read the books she gives me, but I can't incorporate the methods you guys give on here. It just doesn't fit into my training style. Which is _*all motivational*_...and no popping and what nots...I don't do that anymore....nor am I abusive.
> 
> Julie:
> 
> *I'm just going to ignore you. I don't care what you think will work and what won't work.* I told my dad this tonight, and he was just about as upset as I was, he told me to ignore what you say, and he said it's not right that you just shut me down like that, nor is it fair for you to say _*this method won't work*_, because you praticularly dont like it. What I expirenced before we met up with Linda, was way worse than this Halti method. My dad also said that some people live in a 'dreamy world' and everything has to be perfect, and life isn't perfect, and people don't have to be nice. And this past Saturday this OTCH TRAINER, gave her dog a correction (oh no!), it wasn't a nice one either, but he's an OTCH dog and should know better, and he didn't do what he did, ever again. You don't understand how much Linda has changed Maddie, from where she was in June of last year. Linda does everything for me, and I give her soo much credit, I even get free lessons from her, because I'm a Jr., and I REALLY appreciate that. There were about 6 people where we were on Saturday and they ALL said how great Linda was, I don't think she changed her independent dog around, and my how they are winning today.
> 
> You know what? I'm just going to stop posting on this Family Feud thread, and get on with my dog. I say...give it a month and a half, and we'll prove to you guys that we can do this...we'll make a video of how far we are...and see if this method really does the trick. *Will you guys believe in me then?*
> 
> Caryn


Wow. I've tried to be nice throughout this whole thing, but honestly, you're really coming across like a rude, spoiled little know-it-all. It boggles my mind that you think even for a second that it's okay to speak to people this way, much less a group of adults who are trying to help you. Did you happen to show your dad this entire thread so he could see your consistent attitude and extensive rudeness? Or do you speak to him this way, too?

Nobody said Linda is a bad trainer. Nobody even said you shouldn't train the way you are. If you'd dismount from your defensive high horse for two seconds you might actually realize that. Granted, we don't have to agree with a particular technique, but that's our business, and we most certainly are entitled to share our opinion here on the forum. Personally, I disagree with your statement that your training is "all motivational". I personally don't find it motivating to have to physically hold a dog's head up with a Halti... and, in your words (per Linda) keep it there until she "stops resisting and gives in". Maybe Maddie can handle it, and I hope that continues to be the case. Some dogs handle certain techniques better than others. If Linda is as good a trainer as you say she is, I'm sure that if it turns out Maddie can't handle that technique over the long haul, she'll help you find something else to try. And yup. I agree with the others: it *should* be fun - or at the very least, making it fun should be our goal or why bother?

It's really too bad that you don't care what we think, but kid, it's your loss. You had the ability to have a group of VERY experienced dog handlers at your disposal to bounce ideas off of, etc. but methinks you may have burnt some bridges in the past 48 hours. Hopefully at some point you'll grow up enough to be able to take in ideas from other people and, like we've all said, listen to them graciously even if you don't plan to implement them. No one trainer is the end-all, be-all --- even your trainer, Linda.

In the meantime, enjoy your training with Linda... and I'm glad you do, because I doubt you'll be getting as much input from folks here. Nobody enjoys trying to help someone who consistently spits back venomous replies.

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini

By the way... For the record, nobody here EVER said they didn't believe in you. If that's all you got out of our posts, then perhaps you have an insecurity issue that needs to be addressed outside of an Internet forum. That is in no way a dig... it's a sincere statement. Teenage years are rough!

And, please hear me say this: You don't have to prove anything to anybody in the obedience game - other than to prove to your dog, your canine partner, that you'll hold up your end of the deal training-wise and will build a strong relationship of trust. What others may think about you and your dog, and even your performance in the ring, simply doesn't matter. Believe in yourself and believe in your dog. THAT'S the important thing. You have nothing to prove to anyone... (other than maybe to show that you can be a bit more polite and open-minded to others' ideas... but even then, that's only if you want others to continue to offer ideas for consideration).


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## katieanddusty

For the record, I'm 17, my dog is from a BYB, and I like Stephanie and Stephanie likes me (I think . I understand that the past few years are a tough age, but refusing to take anyone's advice because you basically think your instructor is God, and then threatening them that your instructor will not be happy when you tell them what they recommended, is really not the best way to win friends and influence people ... 

And frankly, why do you care whether some stranger from California you met on the Internet believes in you? Even though I know Stephanie in person, I've never thought about whether she "believes in me" ...


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## MaddieMagoo

Yeah I know Katie. But I'm just the person who sticks to one thing and doesn't like to change...sorry, but that's just me, and I wish I could change that about me. 

Well...I'm just going to prove that this method will work...I know NO ONE said that it won't work...on here, but in the back of their mind...maybe?

I'm not refusing to take advice I just can't train from the Internet...see, that's the problem I ran into when I first e-mailed Linda. She ABSOLUTELY wanted me to come down...ASAP!! 

Sorry, but I know Stephanie doesn't have to believe in me...but any person should believe in a Jr., because we are the future of the sport, there shouldn't be any cutting down (not that I'm saying anyone did...but...).

<<(other than maybe to show that you can be a bit more polite and open-minded to others' ideas... but even then, that's only if you want others to continue to offer ideas for consideration).>>

Stephanie...I am a polite person...but just sometimes I'm not...and I was going through a rough week, I know it's not a 'good excuse'...but I'm not arrogant and I'm not like that...once you train and hang out with me...I'm not a bad person, you only think that from an Internet forum.

Thanks for saying the teenage years are tough...they really are! I'm glad someone agrees with me. It's just...I don't know what to do about my parents fininacial situation...and if I'll be able to step into the ring.

I just don't know if the attention stick will work...but by the way (since you got me on the topic) , how long does it take to train? I'm just curious...


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## katieanddusty

If you don't like the way you've been replying and wish you could change it, a simple solution would be to not reply at all. Or a simple "Thank you for your advice, I'll keep it in mind." I don't care if that's a total lie and you're actually laughing at how stupid we are, it's still a lot better to be polite.

Why are you so invested in whether that method will work? It's not your method, and as far as I can tell from your posts, it's only been proven with a BC. Most BCs and Goldens are very different creatures. My agility instructor has been doing agility for a very long time and primarily has BCs, so sometimes he tells me to do things that I will not do either because of Dusty's history or because of breed difference. At our last lesson he told me to take Boo out of the ring when he knocks a bar. I told him I was not comfortable doing that, and he was fine. And it's not just because I have a MACH or whatever, I've been training with him for 4 years and he's always respected that I know my dogs really really well. If your instructor does not have that same respect for your connection with your dog, I don't care how many OTCHs she has.

Your age doesn't require that Stephanie say, "YES, Caryn, of course I think that you and Maddie can start competing in April and get an OTCH." As a junior, coddling, excessive praise, and exaggeration of my abilities are the LAST kind of support I want!


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## bizzy

I agree with Katie even at a Jr myself not so long ago I did not want praise just because I was a Kid. What you are getting has been honest advice from some very knowlegable adults but they are not surgar coating things. They arn't giving you falsly inflated opinions about your abilities. They are giving you very good advise that will allow you to ACHIEVE your goal. You have yet to put one title on maddie. Many of these people have mutiple titles and you won't accept thier advice. I agree with everyone else. You will soon stop getting ANY help if you arn't able to be polite when you don't plan on using the very advice you asked for. I already deliberatly don't answer your questions and many others will soon fallow.


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## missmarstar

I'm glad some other Jrs have replied to this thread now... maybe now you will get it thru your head that no one is disagreeing with you or putting you down because you're "just a kid", but maybe because of your bad attitude.


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## MaddieMagoo

Ok guys...

I'm going to settle this, I got a nice PM from Julie today (and Julie, I'll reply back to you...just hold on there girl!). 

I'm sorry to everyone who I gave some attitude to, I'm sorry that I didn't appreciate it, but I like this method and I think it'll work for me. Linda is one of those trainers who doesn't take "No" for an answer. People can baby their dogs too much and say "Oh, my dog shuts down" or "He doesn't like that"....she has yet to see a dog 'shut down'...<<<that's what she says.

I'm sorry for being a bitch and I'm trying to apologize to everyone who thinks that my attitude really sucks. I'm sorry this week has been tough for me...with a sick dog and a house that seems to be under some money issues...it really gets to you. 

I'm sorry to everyone who thinks that I don't appreciate anything. By golly I do! IT may not seem like it, but like I said before that once you get to know me...I'm a nice person who enjoys life to the fullest...and has been through a lot. It necessarilly doesn't have to be dog things but I have asked for help on other things.

I really tried staying away from this thread...but Marlene...could you lay off a little bit, please? THank you.

I promise from now on I'll appreciate things a little bit more, for what you guys have done, my parents, friends, family, and especially Linda.

Thanks everyone, and take care!
Caryn and Maddie

P.S.-Bizzy I have put titles on Maddie...2 in fact...her Rally Novice and Rally Advanced. (Just letting you know!).


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## katieanddusty

No matter how many OTCHs she has, several of the people here know Goldens better than she does, and more importantly you know your dog better than she does.

I would never train with a trainer who doesn't take "No" for an answer. NO ONE disagrees with what I am sensing from my dog. I don't care who it is, how many MACHs they have, how many times they've won Nationals. Our first trainer was the don't-take-no-for-an-answer type and even after 5 years Dusty has still not completely recovered from the damage she did (although I did somehow manage to "baby" him to a MACH...)


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## MaddieMagoo

katieanddusty said:


> No matter how many OTCHs she has, several of the people here know Goldens better than she does, and more importantly you know your dog better than she does.
> 
> I would never train with a trainer who doesn't take "No" for an answer. NO ONE disagrees with what I am sensing from my dog. I don't care who it is, how many MACHs they have, how many times they've won Nationals. Our first trainer was the don't-take-no-for-an-answer type and even after 5 years Dusty has still not completely recovered from the damage she did (although I did somehow manage to "baby" him to a MACH...)


Linda doesn't take "NO" for an answer all the time...just when she gets serious. Anywho....Linda has trained with breeds from everywhere...from the 'small dogs' to the large dogs...and all of her students have done well. I am comfortable with how I'm training Maddie, and I have 110% faith and trust in Linda...and I'm fine. This is not nearly as bad as what I went through before...don't worry we can detect that red light...

Take care,
Caryn and Maddie


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## katieanddusty

If she lives two hours away, I assume most of this information is coming from what she's told you and not your personal experience? Have you talked to other handlers who compete in the same area as Linda and her students? Have any of Linda's students gotten an OTCH, and if so, what breeds were those? If Linda agrees that you will be ready to compete by April, why did she tell you to enter Pre-Novice at the match? And the dog who she used this Halti/prong method on has never competed in obedience?

The idea of having your precious dog tied up to two separate aversive devices and just walking quickly, dragging the dog along and holding the dog's head up until the dog "gives in," is not something many people would be okay with. Do you want you and Maddie to have fun, or do you just want to get an OTCH? With more positive methods, you and Maddie will have fun and you might get an OTCH, depending on your financial situation, the trials in your area, how much time you have to train after school/homework, how long you have to compete before you go to college, etc. Continuing with methods that your own instructor tells you are not supposed to be fun will probably result in neither having fun with Maddie nor getting an OTCH.

Attitudes like yours (fierce devotion to a particular trainer whose methods may not work for your dog, preoccupation with a very lofty goal that is affected by many variables other than your and your dog's skill, fixation on fancy bags and such) are what cause most juniors to quit ... with no OTCH, no NOC, probably not even a CD ...


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## MaddieMagoo

Ok...I think you need to go back and re-read Katie. The ONLY reason why she wants me to sign up for Pre-Novice is because she wants us to take it slow, we haven't been in the ring since July 15th, 2007. She doesn't want us rushing into things so quickly. That way Maddie get some expirience and it's all on leash, she isn't ready for that transition. She too thinks that Jr.'s shouldn't go up against all the 'big name' competitors.

Styx has not competed because he isn't mentally ready, he has a nerological (sp?) issue, when he was born they believed he stayed in the mother too long and didn't get enough oxygen...so this dog isn't up for the obedience challenge, but someday he will be.

This has come from both directions, from what's on our videos and in her e-mails..not just my expirience. I am not dragging her along either...she is at my side, happy and wagging her tail, when she pulls this "No, I'm not going to do this" on me, then I have to just keep going and forget about what she wants.

I'm also not so worried about fancy bags...and my goal isn't an NOC...but if we pick up a few OTCH points...boy I'll be glad we made it even that far. In the future, I'll want to get an OTCH...or if Maddie and I do...I'm not gauranteeing that we will...but you never know...things can change.

Katie, I kind of wanted people to stop ranting on me about this...but it seems to me that you just won't stop. Could you please lay low ahwile...and give it a rest, please? Thanks.

I have one more thing to add: Yes, Linda knows my goals for Maddie and she knows that I want to go all the way through Utility, she said to me on saturday that Maddie and I will make it there, she says our dream is VERY big for us, but she said it can be possible. We just have to beat the 'big name' competitors, which will be tough. She believes in us, like no one ever has. She also knows what I want to do, and she knows how to get us there, that is her theme with her new puppy, she knows how to have success...and knows how to get there.

One last thing...lol. About your question about her students...I really can't say how many of her students have had OTCH's...but I'm assuming most of them just want to get a CD...and aren't shooting for much more than that. I don't think I have to worry about them...in fact about the Halti thing, a woman with an Irish Water Spaniel came up to her at the end and starting asking questions about the Halti...looks like others like the method. I'm just stating a fact there.

So...I'm done with this Katie and don't want to burn bridges with you. I've said my apologies to everyone else...and I'm done with this thread, for good...lets forget about it and move on with our lives...with our dogs. 

Caryn


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## katieanddusty

I've been involved in dogs for a long time, I've talked to a lot of juniors, and your attitude concerns me. I also don't like the idea of a dog attached to two aversive devices being dragged along, which is what you are calling "I have to just keep going and forget about what she wants." I became involved in this thread because I hoped you might take it a little better from someone closer to your age, and if I stuck with it longer than others it's just because I'm not as bothered by the middle/high schooler attitude. You haven't convinced anyone.

Your outlook toward obedience has caused concern for everyone from pet dog owners to high-level competitors, people of ages from 17 to 52, people with BYB dogs and dogs from well-known obedience breeders, all-positive-reinforcement trainers and trainers who don't even own a clicker. So why do you think people are "ranting on you"?


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## MaddieMagoo

I'm sorry my attitude isn't the greatest on here, it's been along week. I have apologized to everyone...and I have forgiven some people, and they have accepted my apologies and I have accepted their's. I'm sorry you don't think that what I'm doing is the way to go, but we have been teaching attention since June, by now you think Maddie would learn to have her head "up"...but I guess not. 

I'm sorry Katie that you feel that I don't appreciate anything, and I do. I don't know why I'm posting on here, but I felt the need to lay off...everyone else has forgotten about it..so I'm asking politely, will you, please? Thanks and have a great day! 

Caryn


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