# Prong....Gentle leader......regular collar



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

On another thread many of you convinced me away from the Prong towards a Gentle Leader to help control a somewhat headstrong juvenile.

Well...the March budget has been set (the almighty budget) and the gentle leader was in there. But then I get online to check it out...mainly cost...and I see something that bothers me and I want opinions and experiences to make sure the gentle leader is right for my Lucky. Its true I don't want him in pain. But I don't want him injured either.

I read that all dogs are not canidates. If the head is jerked, you can injure the dog. Well....with Lucky, when he is besides himself.... its him that does the jerking. One reason I don't like to use the choke chain..is that if he is past his thinking brain, he will choke of his own accord...I don't have a lot to do with it. To stop him from hurting himself, I must snap back, which gets his attention and into the thinking brain again and loosens the collar.

What are the chances a gentle leader could injure him and in what situations.
Is it best I just stick with a regular collar. I could do it that way...but its going to take him longer to learn. I haven't studied positive techiques like clicker training...I'm happy to hear about that too, and will see what I find from that website put up on another thread. Food does get to his "thinking brain".

Thanks!!!!!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Maggie didnt do well on it... we tried the choke collar...still didnt do welll so we went to the "horrible" prong collar....Maggie has done so well with it.... no more pulling etc....( and trust me she is very hyper and full of energy) We were up at the school yesterday watching the kids practice track... she was so well behaved and trust me she wanted to go and greet each and every one of those kids..but stayed by my side and I stop she sat and when the kids came up to pet her, she didnt move till I freed her up. I know everyone thinks the prong collar is horrible ..but to me... its what ever works for your dog.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks Maggie's Mom. I agree. I don't think the Prong is bad too. In general Lucky learns...if a little slow...and I think he'll get past this no matter what I use. Sooner the better so that he can forget the bad and remember the new.

Can you tell me how things transpired on the Gentle Leader? Since Maggie is so hyper and headstrong...her experience might help me. I thought the gentle leader would really work...but I'm worried if he gets overly excited.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I personally don't use a prong collar because I believe it MIGHT hurt the dog if used WRONG. Choke collars are responsible for crushed throats every year,but you seldom hear of an injury with a prong collar. The windup extendable leash's have removed or broken lots of fingers,in fact I believe they are the cause of more finger injuries than anything else.
I like the body harness because it's not around the neck and I don't feel that I can hurt any of my "kids" with it. 
I am fairly large and controlling my kids is made easier because of my size.
If used correctly and only as a training aid,I think you have to do what ever you feel is best for you.
Clicker training is excellent and uses positive reinforcement ti train.I don't know where a prong collar stands with that type of training,but there have been some posts about it. Timberwolf has talked about it and has provided some links.katieanddusty has also provided a link to a clicker training site on a post.
I think you have to get all the input you can and then decide what to do. If you try it and it works without hurting your baby,then why not.
Shane


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Thanks shane. 
In the time since I wrote the thread and your response.....I've decided to pick up a clicker and clicker training book. 

The concept is very foriegn...I have a hard time with it. But Lucky is motivated with food in the sense that it "gets through" all the cayouse and then he does seem to focus later..whether I have something or not.

My original problem was his over-exuberance with neighborhood kids. Last week, I grabbed a 1/3 cup kibble and gave it to one of the boys and told him to give him commands. A couple of days ago we went out with the neighborhood gang...and Lucky sat his butt down everytime a kid came up...on his own. Just a wiggling, his tail whipping. He wasn't looking for food..but the food had helped him focus. 

I think the gentle leader is out. No pain or pleasure motivation to cut through. 

Thanks
Cyndi


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Yay clicker training! You have to be REALLY consistent with that though. You won't get anywhere on your walks for a few weeks  Here is another "quick fix" for pulling that you can use when you have to get somewhere, it's probably the most humane of them all http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/ Dog1/harness.html


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Maggies mom said:


> ...and trust me she wanted to go and greet each and every one of those kids...


:lol: I swear Samson thinks everyone HAS TO/WANTS TO pet him......


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

katieanddusty said:


> You won't get anywhere on your walks for a few weeks  ]


I'm fully aware its a commitment. I've made Lucky a semi-juvenile delinquent by experimenting in a haphazard way. All I did there was help him forget house rules. Not the methods fault of course.

This is one thing that doesn't call for a "quick fix". I don't have a lack of control...Lucky is simply unstable. And this is really more then just about walks anyway. Its an over-all thing

I'm positive he will do well.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

A few years ago, the Gentle Leader was viewed by some as the most brilliant thing ever invented. I was very excited about it, especially after using it successfully with a headstrong (and physically strong) rescued Golden named Maxx who had never been on a leash. Why had I not thought of hooking up a dog in a way similar to the one that we use for a horse?

But working with dogs is a journey, and there's always something to learn. After we placed Maxx, I didn't have a need for the Gentle Leader for a while. The next opportunity came last Spring with a rescued Golden mix named Brooks. It's a long story abut Brooks. But I never attempted to use the Gentle Leader with him, because I'd read an interesting article by Suzanne Clothier on the topic. I'd also attended one of her seminars, and I'd already been applying some of the lessons I'd learned.

Here's the article:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html

Isn't this forum great? There are so many answers!


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

I know this discussion has made it's way into the forum several times before. Like many topics in the forum, people will swear by what worked for their dog and against whatever method(s) they feel are ineffective, unsafe, etc. Most of the time, there is no right/wrong answer.

I think the moral of the story is, most of the methods out there are effective _and _safe when used properly. Most injuries and inneffectiveness root from various training products being used in an improper and unsafe manner. Some dogs do not respond well to various methods, be it a gentle leader, choke collar, or harness. In which case, it's the owner's responsibility to find the one that their pet responds best to, and use it properly. As well as choose one that they, the owner, feel comfortable using on their pet. (many people have ethical reasons not to use choke/shock collars).

Usually trainers/obedience instructors are pretty well versed in how to use training aids, and would probably be a good resource to getting started with using whatever you choose. If you're planning on participating in obedience classes, usually the trainer has a preferred method of training (be it Clicker training, prong collars, etc) and you may wish to take that into consideration when choosing an obedience trainer. A lot of times people think that a certain method doesnt work, simply because they're using it incorrectly (ie, dragging the dog with a choke collar, rather than using the quick "snap" correction; letting a dog jump around with a gentle leader like you're flying a dog kite on your leash; etc).

Everything has its risks, but IMO most can be avoided by proper use. Find a method your dog responds to, and become properly educated in its use to avoid unnecessary harm to your pet.

Laura


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## PeggyK (Apr 16, 2005)

I tried the gentle leader and it just wasn't doing the job on my first golden, Boomer, who was huge and STRONG-it's possible that I wasn't using it properly. After much debate, I got a prong collar and it was a Godsend! Never once did it appear that he was in pain-and I was in control. The funny thing is that he learned to associate the prong collar with having a fun time-he knew that we were going out where there would be lots of people-the moment he saw the prong collar he went CRAZY with happiness!!! You would have thought I was holding a hamburger for him!!! Of course there are people who misuse the prong collar, but if used properly they can be so very helpful. I should add that my goldens, Coach and Oakley have never needed a prong-they are not as headstrong as my Boomer. After a couple of years in obedience Boomer really didn't need the prong any more. We use the ignore method any demanding behavior. My father's King Charles spanial constantly barks at me for treats and if I have to-I put a throw pillow in front of my face-it works every time!! If they can't make eye contact with you-they give up!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

LauraEyes2 said:


> I know this discussion has made it's way into the forum several times before. Like many topics in the forum, people will swear by what worked for their dog and against whatever method(s) they feel are ineffective, unsafe, etc. Most of the time, there is no right/wrong answer.
> 
> Usually trainers/obedience instructors are pretty well versed in how to use training aids, and would probably be a good resource to getting started with using whatever you choose. If you're planning on participating in obedience classes, usually the trainer has a preferred method of training (be it Clicker training, prong collars, etc) and you may wish to take that into consideration when choosing an obedience trainer. A lot of times people think that a certain method doesnt work, simply because they're using it incorrectly (ie, dragging the dog with a choke collar, rather than using the quick "snap" correction; letting a dog jump around with a gentle leader like you're flying a dog kite on your leash; etc).
> 
> ...


You are so right Laura. I would have never gone out to buy Maggie a prong collar on my own...It was thur Maggie's trainer and we spend 2 classes on using it the correct way ( it wasnt on Maggie during these two classes, plus he gave me a book to read about it)


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## ty823 (Feb 7, 2006)

We didn't use any special collars. We used a motto of 'No pull, no go'. Whenever the dog pulls the leash tight, either stop walking or take a step backward and make the dog heal before you start walking again. It was frustrating at first because it can take like 15 min. to walk a block, but it only took about a month and Lucy has never pulled on the leash again.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

katieanddusty said:


> Yay clicker training! You have to be REALLY consistent with that though. You won't get anywhere on your walks for a few weeks  Here is another "quick fix" for pulling that you can use when you have to get somewhere, it's probably the most humane of them all http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/ Dog1/harness.html


I would never tell anyone to use one of these one there dogs. These things should be outlawed as far as i'm concerned. I've read a few stories pertaining to these types of harnesses and they can be very very dangerous. For one thing, you don't have much control with the use of a harness in a young untrained dog, for another thing is another dog comes at your dog, or something frightens your dog and it goes up and you jerk that leash that dog goes up and is flipped right on its back. They can be very dangerous with that front clip.

I've used a harness before, actually it's my Champion system harness that is belted into the car in the back seat for safety in the car of a dog. This worked pretty good for me but at the same time, you don't have the control if you need it in a young dog. I do use it occassionally though for taking Kode to the vets, I find it works good for that. My prong is the only collar I have the most control with using with him, and there are times even that gives me problems even today because he gets on a scent and I have to get him back focused on me. I've never used the gentle leader on any of my dogs but have tryed the Halti on one of them in the past and the prong gave me the best results as well as my last pup simply didn't like that thing on his face. I wouldn't use the Gentle leader on certain dogs because they look very innocent, but from what i've read and seen about them you wanna be careful using them because they can cause problems to the spine or neck area I believe it said.

Here is what I was referring to about the head halters.
http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html


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## heidi_pooh (Feb 9, 2006)

When you use a head collar, you need to be patient. The dog won't like it at first but you really just need to take your time with it. Just like when you put a leash on your dog for the first time, you don't just put it on and start tugging them around. You need to let them go at their own pace. When I first put one on Otto he absolutely hated it. I just put it on him in the house and let him walk around by himself. After I did that a few times I would put it on him just to go outside to pee. Gradually I left it on him for longer and now he seems okay with it. He still gets a little upset at the beginning of the walks but he calms right down. My mom would refuse to use it because he doesn't like it too much & she didn't want to upset him. When there is snow outside I told her she must use it. Now that she has, she said it is like walking a totally different dog.

You just need to remember to TAKE THINGS SLOWLY and just because they don't like it doesn't mean they are in pain. It is the same thing as using reins on a horse. They will always freak out to start because it just doesn't seem natural to them.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I still say you go with what works for u and your dog, what works with me and Maggie might not be the best choice for someone else and there dog.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

heidi_pooh said:


> When I first put one on Otto he absolutely hated it.


Samson freaked......yanked me completely across our front yard, yiping as loud as can be....11:00 at night. I'm sure all the neighbors thought I was beating him. Samson probably thought I was beating him.....


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## heidi_pooh (Feb 9, 2006)

You just have to use soothing tones and gently keep him calm. Don't start out with the leash attached.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

heidi_pooh said:


> You just have to use soothing tones and gently keep him calm. Don't start out with the leash attached.


It took some patience to get him walking with a lease.....but that first time scared me. I guess I had never had to lease train a dog before.....


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

And none of the books I had read even mentioned it.....


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## heidi_pooh (Feb 9, 2006)

When you first put a puppy on a leash, you need to just hold the leash straight up above him and let him walk around while you follow. After he seems comfortable, ever so lightly tug him to the side. If he freaks out you stop and start over. That is the easiest way to keep them from getting leash-shy. Its the same type of thing with the head collar.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Found this on another forum:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Knowing Lucky...he'd most likely do real well on the halter when the control issues were , when to sniff, what to look at, where to go.

But the minute that darn squirrel runs in front of us, or my kids run ahead (how dare they lead the pack).......I can't visulize a safe way to bring him back to earth.

With the harness....I have a vision of me taking a bulldozer for a walk. I maybe wrong...but the only way of control I'm seeing there is his power against mine.

For him....food has always been a way to break through the excitement of the moment. Though...the squirrel will take lots of commitment.


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

I've used a Haltie on Mojo with good results. I can't see where it would be harmful to him as he isn't supposed to be walking in front of you to begin with. I also keep a tidbit in my left hand where he can sniff it and that keeps his attention on me. 

He also hates it and will try to roll all over the ground trying to get it off. I was amazed at how tight they have to be but it sure works good.

Having said that...... I also have to say that after a while he doesn't care if he has the Haltie on or not..... he pulls anyway. For a (near) perfect dog this is his only fault. 

I've used the prong collar but I'm not comfortable with it. I'll have to do more research on the subject to feel ok with it.


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

I think some dogs are freaked out by the headcollar (Gentle leader, haltie, etc) which is where a lot of hte injuries happen. If a dog starts to flail around while wearing the headcollar, it can cause injuries to their head and neck. Again proper use is important, but that also means finding one that is compatible with your pet as well.


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