# watching multiple marks fall



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I posted this on another forum, but would especially like opinions from you guys!

Just got done reading Spencer's "Retriever Training Drills for Marking" and he is a big proponent of having the dog shift his whole body to watch each mark of a multiple, unless your dog is a chronic breaker.
So just curious...
When your dogs watch a multiple fall, do you have them keep their rump on the ground and turn only their head, or do you pivot your body and expect them to pivot with you as the marks fall? Why do you use the method you use? Also, would you do it differently for HRC vs. AKC hunt tests vs. AKC field trials?
Inquiring minds want to know.
__________________


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I am not doing multi marks yet but I will have Jige pivot his body when he watches the marks fall. In my club we have people that do it both ways and the dogs that pivot their whole body seem to do SO much better than the dogs that just move their head. 
My sister is just training Prada Brown to do this and at first she was only having Prada move her head and Prada was having trouble going out of the AOF or not going going far enough out. After a 2 days of that I suggest she move her whole body and OMG Prada was right on top of those marks. 
BTW we have only done HRC but I dont plan to train him different for AKC.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Which mark was Prada Brown facing, the go-bird or the memory bird?
Also, on triples or quads that are thrown out of order, does Prada have to move her body in both directions, first one way and then the other? I'm trying to get this figured out.
Thanks!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

In many cases, the dog does not need to move its butt and many folks prefer that. However, even in FTs, especially if there is a quad with an out of order flyer, that last bird often requires a big turn.

I want my dogs to pivot if I pivot and if I just move a knee, just turn their head. I find it is better to know that the dog is watching the last mark if it sits there until I turn. Doesn't always work that way, but it makes me feel better anyway.

Many folks, especially in FTs want the dog's butt to stay on the ground. It certainly works.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I will step up or back to push or pull the dog when there are big swings, not so much on tight setups where I do something more like Tatnalls knee shift--just a slight influence on the dog. I basically want the dog to have a really good look at the mark. Breeze more shuffles her front feet to move with me than moving her butt. Bonnie is just learning to do this now with the few multiples we have been doing. I sit her facing the memory bird, and then use here/heel to get her in position for the go bird before I throw it. As the dog gets better at it I take out the verbal cues and have them just shift with my movement.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I would think tight setups just a head swing, bigger one may require body movement. Of coarse at this point I'm just happy that she realizes that a second mark is going to fly.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

great stuff guys, thanks!


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

She was having troubles with the go to bird. She is only doing doubles but since it is working with double most likely use the same for triples and quads.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> I posted this on another forum, but would especially like opinions from you guys!
> 
> Just got done reading Spencer's "Retriever Training Drills for Marking" and he is a big proponent of having the dog shift his whole body to watch each mark of a multiple, unless your dog is a chronic breaker.
> So just curious...
> ...


I let the dog do what she needs to do as long as she is steady. My training goals in order of importance are: 1) awesome hunting dog 2) Hunt Test dog.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

I would say, like all things dog training, it depends. Yes, the dog should shift with you but if it's a tight set up, that may only be their head. If its wide open, they may have to pivot on their butt.

For me, in training, I would help the dog (with a leg tap) to focus on the next mark if needed.

But more importantly, the send. If my dog turns his head for the go bird, but his body is facing the memory bird, I will re-align his whole body before the send. Especially if the memory bird, or any other mark is a flyer and the go bird is dead.

Kathy


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

What Kathy G & Shelly said


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

KathyG said:


> *But more importantly, the send. If my dog turns his head for the go bird, but his body is facing the memory bird, I will re-align his whole body before the send. Especially if the memory bird, or any other mark is a flyer and the go bird is dead.*
> 
> Kathy


This part is really important!!! Having the dog's body and spine aligned with the mark they are being sent for really helps them get to the bird you want them to have. That's why we spend so much time on wagon wheel drills and such teaching them to go as sent! It is very sad to watch a handler not give their dog the best chance at success by sending them when they are not aligned on any mark, and then get lost once in the field. Entirely preventable!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Butt on the ground and can turn and follow with their front feet if need be to position to see the mark. My job is to give them what advantage I can to mark the fall and set up alignment.


> It is very sad to watch a handler not give their dog the best chance at success by sending them when they are not aligned on any mark, and then get lost once in the field. Entirely preventable!


As soon as they pick up the bird I get ready to line (position) them for the next one.

Spine alignment is critical it can cause them to over correct and lead to trouble with the mark.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the replies! 
Interesting, Kathy, I don't think I've ever paid attention to what direction Tito's body is facing, only his head. I'm so glad you mentioned it, I will have to be aware of it from now on, as that only makes sense to have him aligned in the right direction.
Come to think of it, when I sent him for that flyer at the SH test I caused him to fail (!), I'm sure his body was facing the memory bird.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> Interesting, Kathy, I don't think I've ever paid attention to what direction Tito's body is facing, only his head. I'm so glad you mentioned it, I will have to be aware of it from now on, as that only makes sense to have him aligned in the right direction.
> Come to think of it, when I sent him for that flyer at the SH test I caused him to fail (!), I'm sure his body was facing the memory bird.


I have been taking a step backwards in training just to get a good look at the dog's spine and head alignment. I think that most of the people in my training group don't check on spine alignment but they probably should.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Not only their head and spine alignment but watch their face and ears and mouth. Depending on the dog they will tell you if they have the mark or not. I don't send until they are focused. I like to give them time to process and remember the mark. If they don't I know they may need some help. Another thing I don't do is watch the birds fall I watch my dog. I should know where they are going to fall before I run the test.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> Not only their head and spine alignment but watch their face and ears and mouth. Depending on the dog they will tell you if they have the mark or not. I don't send until they are focused. I like to give them time to process and remember the mark. If they don't I know they may need some help. Another thing I don't do is watch the birds fall I watch my dog. I should know where they are going to fall before I run the test.


That's what test dog is for in part, and one reason you want to be there to see it! I will sneak a peek at the flyer because its fall can be more varied.

And very good point that the dogs all have their tells--Bonnie holds her breath when she has the mark, and Breeze drops her head forward and parallel to the ground, kind of like she is reaching for it. When I get that I know she has the mark.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

For the first time, yesterday in training I noticed that Tito raises his ears a bit when he has the mark.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

On the go bird, I am not that concerned if the dog is facing the mark, looking like he wants it but he is not perfectly aligned. Especially if it is a flyer. I will put my hand down to confirm and send. On other marks, I do want to see the dog lined up all the way, but am more focused on his face showing me he has the mark. I do not step back to look, since that is a signal for the dog to move.

I also do not watch the dead birds but take a peek at the flyer. I got burned on it once in a Q where I tried a quick handle on a tough bird and handled him to where all the previous falls had been but mine was 10 yards short (we were still called back). I would rather know whether or not the dog has seen the fall than see it myself, at the end of the day (if that makes sense).


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I just wanted to Thank Barb for this thread. I really learned alot for when I get to this area of training for multi marks. Thanks!!!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

gdgli said:


> I have been taking a step backwards in training just to get a good look at the dog's spine and head alignment. I think that most of the people in my training group don't check on spine alignment but they probably should.


Think of their spine as a spring for launch. Pointed the wrong way they have to bend (correct) for where they saw the bird fall. Which tends to make them over correct. Then add factors of the test?????


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Faelan pricks his ears, but his whole spine kind of straightens and lengthens as well; it is a bit hard to describe but if he were human I'd compare it to a string pulling his spine up to the sky 

Towhee all out chatters and leans forward LOL



hotel4dogs said:


> For the first time, yesterday in training I noticed that Tito raises his ears a bit when he has the mark.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I am only doing singles with Jige but when he sees right where it fell his whole body kind of lifts up and leans forward. If he didnt see where it went(white bumpers against a white sky..I know I was stupid I learned) he lifts his right front paw and looks at me. I think he is telling "hey maw point it out okay?" lol


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> Towhee all out chatters and leans forward LOL


It must be genetic!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

LOL - you should see the expressions on people in agility when she is waiting for her turn - she chatters then too  loudly!



Loisiana said:


> It must be genetic!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Radar would close his mouth. Gunner leans forward just a hair with ears coming up and his body tightens up. With Copper his face would freeze, jaws locked tight, eyes locked on. Whiskey would stiffen and lock. Casey had a particular stare (eye brows would furrow) and close his mouth also. When I see those it is time to send.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

On singles it's the slight lean forward, muscles tensed. 
I'll have to check it out on doubles and see if her tell is the same. I'm usually trying to remember to make sure I'm taking delivery and getting her lined up for the memory bird correctly.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

hollyk said:


> On singles it's the slight lean forward, muscles tensed.
> I'll have to check it out on doubles and see if her tell is the same. I'm usually trying to remember to make sure I'm taking delivery and getting her lined up for the memory bird correctly.


I step back from the line while they are returning and receive them then step forward to the line (bird in mouth) then take delivery. On the line I want them to take.
If there is a blind on the next one I do a front sit. Take the bird and tell them "dead" to let them know they are about to run a blind. Back up behind the line with them heeling to me. Line em up and send em.

Just my routine which there could be flaws in it but seems to work so far. Dissenting opinions are welcome.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> I step back from the line while they are returning and receive them then step forward to the line (bird in mouth) then take delivery. On the line I want them to take.
> If there is a blind on the next one I do a front sit. Take the bird and tell them "dead" to let them know they are about to run a blind. Back up behind the line with them heeling to me. Line em up and send em.
> 
> Just my routine which there could be flaws in it but seems to work so far. Dissenting opinions are welcome.


Oh no not you too! 
"Plan of attack, you need to go the line with a plan of attack" is what I'm hearing from my trainer these days.
My attack plan is usually me thinking "what mark is coming out first again", then "gotta line up feet to second mark and get her spine lined up" quickly followed by "shoot I hope she knows where that mark is because I'm not quite sure if I have to handle" and ends with us running the blind and as we're walking away thinking "rats I forgot _again_ to really set the line to the blind in my head before we started". :doh:
My plan of attack is more of a crissis management plan.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh yes, I'm with you there!



hollyk said:


> My plan of attack is more of a crissis management plan.


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