# Do you Trust your Professional Handler?



## esSJay

I don't have experience with handlers or conformation, but I thought I this part of your post was funny... 


> I'm a relative newbie to conformation showing with *only (2) champions*.


ONLY 2!? you're 2 for 2!


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## GoldenSail

I do not have a handler and hope that I never need one. I really want to owner handle, but it is my first dog so we will see. I did talk to this wonderful professional handler at our first show and when I started to mention that if Scout got older and I felt I needed a handler I would consider it....he said don't! In his opinion there were a lot of crappy ones that you should never trust your dog too.

And I saw it too. There was a poodle puppy taken into a ring that took a long piss after being crated all day without even a potty break before show time. The big handlers with tons of dogs are running in and out of rings and had so many dogs you wonder how they could attend to all of them. On top of it, I thought quite a few of them weren't even that great of handlers (could be my area).

But on the other hand I know of some people that use handlers and love 'em. And I did see a few that were IMO, really, really good. And of course, they had the really good dogs  I imagine though it is something you can't be too careful about!


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## AquaClaraCanines

I would never EVER be okay with anyone taking my dog anywhere without me, and people walking my dog outside of a fenced area totally makes me go into panic attack mode. Clearly, I could never deal with this. Ringside pick up is all I could ever do, and I'd watch the entire time (even if I had to hide, like I did with Rigby! )

I think if you are not as much of a worrier as I am, and you have someone you trust, that's awesome!


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## Gwen

Personally, I would like to see judges become more active in disciplining anyone in the ring who abuses their dog. I did once see a judge verbally chastise a professional handler after his dog had a huge bowel movement in the ring. The judge said that the dog obviously had not been given the opportunity to do his business outside of the ring & that it must have been very painful for him. She further said that the dog was very upset by what had happened & that it was the handler's fault! YEAHHHHH When the cleaning crew came, the judge had them leave their equipment, she took the dog and made the handler clean up the mess!!!!! The handler was a little red in the face :--ashamed: I applaud that judge!


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## Pointgold

Hiring a handler should be no different than hiring someone to do day care for your child. Too many people consider handlers to be some sort of god, and forget that THEY are in YOUR employ. Ask questions, get references, check their rig and set up at shows, visit their facilities at home. Membership in handler organizations, or now, AKC registered handlers, is a good place to start. Watch them with their charges both in AND out of the ring. Observe their assistants closely, as well. And, let friends and colleagues know that if you are not at a show where your dog is being handled by a pro, you want to know if there was anything at all - good or bad - that you should be aware of and then discuss it with the handler. There are excellent, caring handlers out there, as well as those who I would not allow to scoop my dogs poop. 

Here's what I like to see - 
In '97, I'd flown out to CA with Pebbles for the LA Specialty and then shows in Long Beach. We were set up with Bruce and Gretchen Schult and Moe Miyagawa. We'd all brought food for a potluck lunch. Bruce and Gretchen had these tall director's chairs with "Camp Schultz" embroidered on them - a gift from Rick & Jane Fish. During the lunch break, Bruce was sitting in his chair, balancing a plate full of food AND a Border Collie that he was showing, the dog playing licky face all over him, wagging his tail, and in general making it clear that there was a bond between them. As well as the rest of their dogs, who ALL got "lap/face time" with both he and Gretchen.


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## mylissyk

Gwen said:


> ...On the other hand, I've seen treatment by professional handlers that makes me cringe and very angry. I've seen dogs dragged around the ring, jerked in an abusive manner, dragged into the ring on 2 hind feet, karate chopped under the belly and even totally ignored when they're on the grooming table. Some of these dogs are left in their crate all day without even a bathroom break. On that note, some of the crates used are so small that I'm surprised the dog can even walk after being curled up in their crate for such long periods of time. Many of these dogs are left behind in their crates @ the show venue until the next morning.
> 
> How do you rate your professional handler?


I'm really glad you have a handler you can trust. The things you have observed are appalling! Aren't there guidelines, or requirements for how dogs are handled? Leaving them at the venue over night is acceptable?? I would be livid if someone handled my dog the way you describe!


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## Gwen

*Here are the Canadian Guidelines:* *Canadian Professional Handlers Association

Code of Ethics
*


I will familiarize myself with the rules and regulations of the CPHA, the CKC and this Code of Ethics. I will abide by these rules to the utmost of my ability and I will deem it my duty to report to the Board of Directors of the CPHA any infraction of these rules by a member of the CPHA. 
I will not accept any dogs from any other CPHA members’ client until that member has been apprised of the situation and all his/her accounts have been satisfied in full. 
I will conduct myself in a professional manner at all times. I will always be courteous and sportsman-like whenever I show dogs, no matter what the outcome of the awards may be. 
I will not maliciously criticize or discuss the abilities or ineptitudes of my fellow handlers or exhibitors nor any of the dogs they may be showing. 
I will, to the best of my ability, aid any fellow handler, who lives by this code, in the handling of his/her dogs should the occasion arise where they are unable to handle them, providing it does not jeopardize any of my clients or their dogs. 
I will deal with my clients in a professional and business like manner, and I will advise them of all show results, wins or placings and tender them all ribbons and trophies won by their dog/s within a reasonable time period. 
I dedicate myself to continuously strive to improve my knowledge and skills in the practice of my profession for the benefit of those who employ me. 
I will not, in any manner, belittle or berate any judge of their decisions in the ring. 
The fees for my services will be fair and just to my clients and shall be commensurate with the services rendered. An itemized bill will be supplied monthly to each client. 
Unless prior arrangements have been made with a client, a client’s dog will be given priority in the ring over any dogs owned by the handler. 
As a member of the CPHA, I realize I am their representative whenever I am in the public eye, and will conduct myself within the confines of this code and pledge to uphold it’s principles and intent. I swear to abide by the above Code of Ethics and to the validity of all statements contained in the application for membership in the CPHA.

[Main Page] [Membership] [Requirements] [Application] [Contact] [Code of Ethics]​


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## Ljilly28

This whole subject is crucial to me right now, and I keep wavering and worrying about it.

I am staying tuned for any/all responses with huge interest.

Thanks for starting this thread!


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## Gwen

Ljilly28 said:


> This whole subject is crucial to me right now, and I keep wavering and worrying about it.
> 
> I am staying tuned for any/all responses with huge interest.
> 
> Thanks for starting this thread!


My handler came highly recommended by my breeder. When I met Graeme, my first thought was "Hey, you were on the TV show "Going to the Dogs". 

I guess that the most important judge of a handler was what my boys thought of him. Well, when they see Graeme, they get very excited - happy excited - but they listen to him. I also see that teamwork when they're in the ring together. 


Graeme has handed both of my boys off to other handlers due to scheduling conflicts but that's ok. My guys have adjusted just fine to this and handle for anyone - hey, they even beat Graeme in the Group ring! Most of the time, it is Graeme's daughter, Emily, who fills in & she's most competent!


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## donnaj03

I guess I have to consider myself very lucky as Kimberley (my daughter) has always handled our guys or if she needs a back-up then it's one of the Jr's that's very gentle also. I just watched a video taken at our recent Maritime Golden Retriever Specialty where Tye who's name in this video should be Tigger (ha) who was jumping and excited over bait (which is something Kimberley said she cannot take in the ring with him again) but, I smiled when I seen how she got him under control in her own way and he continued to Best Puppy In Specialty Show. He is a very happy boy to begin with.  

Yeah for that judge who made her do the clean up! Only once have I ever seen a person get a really good scolding from a judge to the point where he was almost asked to leave the ring or keep his mouth quiet and dog under control and that was not in the golden ring. 

There are excellent handlers in our area but I am still happy that mine go with either myself or Kimberley.


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## Ash

I trust my handler completely and did spend a lot of time watching her before having her take my dogs out. She is absolutely wonderful and I feel very lucky. I would not allow my dogs to go with someone I did not fully trust either. Besides doing a flawless job with them my dogs don't/can't lie. They will pull me off my feet to go and see her often smiling, talking with complete wiggle butts....


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## Doolin

I have to say I am very anti letting my dogs out of my care. Only once have I allowed one of mine to go to a show with a handler. Lucky for me it was with good friend, mentor and at the time co-owner of my girl. So I knew she would be well taken care of. 

The funniest thing is that the handler's husband had to take my girl across the road to X her as she only did grass. Even funnier is, he was happy to take her and complimented her on how well behaved she was.

I think if you aren't completely comfortable with your handler and think they will treat your dogs as good or better then you do, don't send them out. Personally I have much more fun showing and working with my guys, so a handler isn't very important to me.


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## Ljilly28

Mac, how did you learn to do so well handling your own dogs?? I remember how well you did at last year's national! I keep hearing that goldens are so competitive, that it's not actually feasible/realistic for a novice to pull off showing her own dog. Do you think that's true?


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## Doolin

Jill, I was lucky to have an outstanding pup last year. I had many people I did not know come up and comment how much they liked him. I was told I did a really good job up until the last go around, but I am still learning!

I have breeder friends who, with their really nice dogs, finish them by themselves. Some dogs don't show well with their owners and others show better with their owners. All I can say is the more practice you get in the ring the less nervous you become and the easier it is to properly present your dog. That being said, it helps to have a person knowledgeable in structure and gait to help you determine the best speed at which to move the dog and stacking properly to show off your dogs strongest points!

But like I said up top it helps to have an outstanding example of the breed! Hogan did just about everything naturally. Although I did have to teach him to stack, which he learned in Sweeps.

The only other dog I did well with was Putter. He had quite a few reserves under his belt before the age of 1 and retired. Putter not only had great structure, but showed better then any other dog I have owned. In fact I think he loved to show more then almost every dog I have watched.


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## SunGold

I trust my handler (Diana Mason) 110%! I've worked with her at shows, I've taken grooming lessons with her at her kennel. All my dogs LOVE her, they get so excited when I tell them it's time to go see Diana and they know as soon as we are in her driveway! She creates a special bond with each dog she shows, I think that's why she does so well.


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## arcane

I have experienced both! the good and the bad. As Gwen has said Graeme & Emily are the best, my dogs thrive in their care! I trust them 200 % and don't worry when I send them off for a weekend away! In a perfect world I could handle my own, and win : Darn WORK!!!!! Blue is scheduled for just such a weekend the end of this month!.....:crossfing he comes home a NEW CH!!!!!


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## LibertyME

SunGold said:


> I trust my handler (Diana Mason) 110%! I've worked with her at shows, I've taken grooming lessons with her at her kennel. All my dogs LOVE her, they get so excited when I tell them it's time to go see Diana and they know as soon as we are in her driveway! She creates a special bond with each dog she shows, I think that's why she does so well.


Ive never seen Diana be harsh with any dog in her care...she also seems to have a good relationship with other prof handlers - its nice to see....


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## MurphyTeller

Graeme and Emily handled Teller for me. They're totally trustworthy and the dogs love them. But - I wouldn't put my dog with any other handler - some of the PHA ones in the US make my skin crawl with what they do to the dogs in their care. 

I still only do ringside drop off though because I'm particular, I have a dog who needs to RUN before he's shown - a game of retrieve or blasting around a field with another dog. It's not possible for the handlers to do that with all of the dogs that they are showing, grooming and caring for. I also feel better knowing I've dropped off a dog that is "empty" too. I also have a dog that will work for anyone, so the drop-offs work for him too - it's nice to be able to sit ringside and enjoy the show 

Erica


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## SunGold

LibertyME said:


> Ive never seen Diana be harsh with any dog in her care...she also seems to have a good relationship with other prof handlers - its nice to see....


It's great, and she stays out of the crap (ya'll know what I mean) !! Her focus is completely on the dogs she has, they are her first priority.



MurphyTeller said:


> I still only do ringside drop off though because I'm particular, I have a dog who needs to RUN before he's shown - a game of retrieve or blasting around a field with another dog.


Diva is the same way, figures! If she doesn't get enough walks, runs, or plain attention before her turn in the ring, she's a naughty girl!  She always gets long walks both the night before and the morning of the show. And it's even better when Diana has two of my dogs, cause they get to play! That's Diva's favorite!


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## Ljilly28

Okay, I am going to contact Diana Mason tomorrow and see if I can meet her- this forum is the best!


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## LibertyME

yet another reason to go to dog shows....to watch the prof handlers when they are not in the ring ....


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## arcane

LibertyME said:


> yet another reason to go to dog shows....to watch the prof handlers when they are not in the ring ....


AGREED! funny what you may *see* when they don't know eyes are on them!


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## SunGold

Ljilly28 said:


> Okay, I am going to contact Diana Mason tomorrow and see if I can meet her- this forum is the best!


She's in Fitchburg this weekend, I saw her today and I'll be back tomorrow. I'll let her know you will be calling.


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## Gldntrsur

Diana showed Cramer when he was 16 months and I have to say she does an excellent job and does an excellent job grooming the dogs. I think she only shows Goldens. We had a husband and wife team that showed him quite a bit and always showed Yogi but imo I think Diana did a much better job. Cramer hated the ring. He thought he was king and his tail was always high. I have seen how she works with the dogs and would trust her.


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## peeps

I have two opinions on the professional handler/owner handler thing ! I enjoy showing, grooming my dogs and like to take them out to shows as well ~ I think that the owner handlers are few and far between and that there should be more ~ I also hate the fact that the best dog doesn't always win with professional handlers and there are judges that go with faces, I belive it is a disservice to the breed. That being said there is a need for people who are professional handlers for other reason too - my work schedule also dicatates alot of the shows I can or cannot get to, and shows that are far away etc - I don't have a problem hiring a professional to take my dogs there_. _I know alot of people in the states show their own puppies for practise in sweeps and regular puppy classes and send them out with handlers when they are older and more competitive. I think word of mouth is the best way to find a handler.


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## beccacc31

How long is one considered a novice handler? Are the same judges at the sweeps as at the nationals? What I gather from this thread is it does not matter how long the owner shows their own dogs, they are considered a novice. So... If I show my dog and win can I draw myself up a business card and ask you to pay me to show your dog and then I am no longer a novice? The entire professional handler thing has always had me baffled. I get the impression that if you have not grown up through the ranks of showing you can not title your dog. Judges are biassed to the pro's. Can someone please explain to me so I understand?


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## GoldenSail

beccacc31 said:


> How long is one considered a novice handler?


Until one does not have two left feet  (BTW, I am still working on this one myself)



beccacc31 said:


> What I gather from this thread is it does not matter how long the owner shows their own dogs, they are considered a novice. So... If I show my dog and win can I draw myself up a business card and ask you to pay me to show your dog and then I am no longer a novice? The entire professional handler thing has always had me baffled. I get the impression that if you have not grown up through the ranks of showing you can not title your dog. Judges are biassed to the pro's. Can someone please explain to me so I understand?


There is a difference between an owner-handler, and an amateur owner-handler. There are many wonderful owner-handlers out there that know what they are doing and are just as good, if not better, than the pros. They win, they get championships on their dogs.

However, if you are an amateur than means you are not experienced yet and know all the tricks of the trade, so that makes it infinitely harder to win against someone who does. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen (and I am hoping for it, lol). I did meet a pro handler that started just that way. Got himself a dog and started showing it for fun. Somebody thought he was pretty good and offered to pay him to show their dog. Things took off from there.


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## Payton

I would like to know why dogs in conformation can crap all over indoor shows, while Obedience dogs get disqualified? 
I have also seen some rough handlers in Conformation.. and folks in obedience very heavy handed!!!


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## peeps

Payton said:


> I would like to know why dogs in conformation can crap all over indoor shows, while Obedience dogs get disqualified?
> I have also seen some rough handlers in Conformation.. and folks in obedience very heavy handed!!!


 
I don't know for sure the rules regarding this but..it may have something to do with the fact in the breed ring the dog is judged differently - movement, coat, outline, etc. while in obedience a dog os judged on behaviour, teamwork etc. While I have never had a dog mess in the ring I do think it could happen to anyone - Danny's first show she didn't go (number 2) all weekend (I think she was nervous being away from home) when she got home she _really_ went but a day longer and who knows she might have gone in the ring once she couldn't hold it any longer....depends on the different situations.


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## Ljilly28

Has anyone worked with http://goldenharper.com/David_Harper_All_Breed_Professional_Handling/Welcome.html? He's been highly recommended to me a few time??


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## Ljilly28

Pointgold said:


> Hiring a handler should be no different than hiring someone to do day care for your child. Too many people consider handlers to be some sort of god, and forget that THEY are in YOUR employ. Ask questions, get references, check their rig and set up at shows, visit their facilities at home. Membership in handler organizations, or now, AKC registered handlers, is a good place to start. Watch them with their charges both in AND out of the ring. Observe their assistants closely, as well. And, let friends and colleagues know that if you are not at a show where your dog is being handled by a pro, you want to know if there was anything at all - good or bad - that you should be aware of and then discuss it with the handler. There are excellent, caring handlers out there, as well as those who I would not allow to scoop my dogs poop.
> 
> Here's what I like to see -
> In '97, I'd flown out to CA with Pebbles for the LA Specialty and then shows in Long Beach. We were set up with Bruce and Gretchen Schult and Moe Miyagawa. We'd all brought food for a potluck lunch. Bruce and Gretchen had these tall director's chairs with "Camp Schultz" embroidered on them - a gift from Rick & Jane Fish. During the lunch break, Bruce was sitting in his chair, balancing a plate full of food AND a Border Collie that he was showing, the dog playing licky face all over him, wagging his tail, and in general making it clear that there was a bond between them. As well as the rest of their dogs, who ALL got "lap/face time" with both he and Gretchen.


I found this post so useful& helpful today.I am uneasy about a few thing like how billing works. I am nervous running a tab with no real idea of the bills.


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## HiTideGoldens

Ljilly28 said:


> I found this post so useful& helpful today.I am uneasy about a few thing like how billing works. I am nervous running a tab with no real idea of the bills.


I really liked this thread too, I remember reading it some time ago and found the advice very helpful. I agree with you though, it is a bit odd to not have any idea of what the bill is going to be. I've found with our handler, the expenses to generally be about the same per day per show unless there's a lot of mileage involved. The handling fees are really what can add up and catch me off guard! I remember almost fainting when I realized how much our bill was going to be from a 5 day show!


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## Ljilly28

It is like running a tab at a bar, but with extra zeros. I was going to let Copley go out for April, until he turned 18 months, but I flinched! I have no real idea how big that bill would be, but I am thinking several times more than my mortgage.


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## gabbys mom

Ljilly28 said:


> It is like running a tab at a bar, but with extra zeros. I was going to let Copley go out for April, until he turned 18 months, but I flinched! I have no real idea how big that bill would be, but I am thinking several times more than my mortgage.


Depends on your pro. My breeder told me to expect 1500-2500 a month.


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## Ljilly28

It adds up fast with a baby dog, especially since he gets passed off if he wins his class if the Am bred or Open dog also win( and they are so nice they often do, lol). I am mind-boggled by all the people finishing dogs from 12-18 month classes. If my handler had only my dog, I could see it, but I can also see spending months winning the class but not having a real shot at the points. It is confusing.


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## HiTideGoldens

I don't think it's nearly as common as you think to finish from 12-18. I've heard of it happening here and there - but they seem to be the exception and not the rule. At least out here since it's 21 dogs and 23 bitches for a major, getting majors from the puppy classes is pretty rare. My friend's puppy just got a 3 point major from the 9-12 class, but that's the only one I've heard of in the past year or so in our area.

Jack has done very well for a puppy - he was pointed from the 9-12 class and has 7 reserves - with pretty limited showing. But I realized that at this age (which is very close to Copley's if I remember correctly) it is still more likely than not going to be the Open dog or Bred by dog that gets the points. It can get VERY frustrating to watch your dog looking good and doing well but not get the points over and over. It starts to feel like a big fat waste of money. I started getting very frustrated, so we pulled Jack from showing for a few months. I'm just starting to enter him selectively again here and there...mainly because I love going to shows though! 

Plus then you have the issue you mentioned of the Open dog always being priority. I think that's most handlers' policy, but again, can be frustrating to have your dog handed off to someone else. And then you get the same sized bill as the Open dog! LOL 

I'm actually doing things very different with Chloe at this point. She's not as together as Jack was at her age (a bit high in the rear right now and no coat) but even if she's looking good, I still will probably only enter her at the couple specialties in the next few months and that's it. Just enough to give her the ring experience until she's ready to win. And honestly, if Jack weren't aging out of 12-18 prior to the specialties, I probably wouldn't enter her at all. I just think sweepstakes is really fun so I want to show her while I can.


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## Ljilly28

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I don't think it's nearly as common as you think to finish from 12-18. I've heard of it happening here and there - but they seem to be the exception and not the rule. At least out here in CA, winning a major from the puppy classes is pretty rare. My friend's puppy just got a 3 point major from the 9-12 class, but that's the only one I've heard of in the past year or so in our area.
> 
> Jack has done very well for a puppy - he was pointed from the 9-12 class and has 7 reserves - with pretty limited showing. But I realized that at this age (which is very close to Copley's if I remember correctly) it is still more likely than not going to be the Open dog or Bred by dog that gets the points. It can get VERY frustrating to watch your dog looking good and doing well but not get the points over and over. It starts to feel like a big fat waste of money. I started getting very frustrated, so we pulled Jack from showing for a few months.
> 
> Plus then you have the issue you mentioned of the Open dog always being priority. I think that's most handlers' policy, but again, can be frustrating to have your dog handed off to someone else. But then you get the same sized bill as the Open dog! LOL
> 
> I'm actually doing things very different with Chloe at this point. She's not as together as Jack was at her age (a bit high in the rear right now and no coat) but I still will probably only enter her at a the couple specialties in the next few months and that's it. Just enough to give her the ring experience until she's ready to win.


It is fun hearing your experience and it makes me feel better! The CKC/AKC paperwork process was too slow to send Cops out as a puppy, so 12 -18 is his first try. With Lush, I think I will follow your lead as to Chloe. Just a little experience, but not going too crazy until she is really old enough to try for real points. . . 

Copley's half brother is kicking major butt and has his specialty majors already at 10 months! 1 more point and he is finished. . . Some of the Ryder kids make it look easier than it is. My bad coat care is not the most helpful thing. . .


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## gabbys mom

Ozzie had a bunch of major RWDs out of 12-18 and maybe one point- but then he aged out and hit open and I really felt like the judges really started noticing him. He picked up another 4 points right away. 

We haven't had any majors by us lately- our wonderful junior handler took him to Louisville and TN clusters. Each day he's been coming in 3rd behind the booths in open : ) I'm super pleased with him for an under two boy with 110 goldens entered. 

When I get my second one, I will do it like Michelle is- some puppy shows and then back out when they are actually ready. Ozzie never looked not together- he was one of those puppies- but he looks GOOD now. This is when I should be showing him. Everything before this should have been considered for fun.


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## sterregold

I like showing my own dogs, so I do not generally use a handler. That said, my Breeze will free bait for me but will not move with any enthusiasm. She gives me this look that seems to say "Excuse me woman, just where are the birds? _*WE*_ don't do this. _*WE*_ get birds!!" So for her I have started to use a handler. And for the handler she moves really cute and wags her tail and looks happy to be there!

There are only a couple of handlers here that I would trust with my dogs though, and so far I bring them to the show and hand them off in time to get groomed. Graeme is one of those--he finished both of my Breeze's parents, pointed Winter's brother, and got a BPIS on my friend's pup at our national last summer. Another is Joanne Griffith as I have known her for years now, and she was very helpful and encouraging when I was showing Winter. I had set up with them over the years so knew how the dogs in her care were treated. The last show I was at with her she had one Golden who just would not poop and she and her daughter had to have leash walked that dog 5 times that morning trying to get her to go. When a show allows them to bring their motorhome they do and stay right on the grounds and the dogs come out of the building and into the motorhome to sleep at night. They are both also a flat rate for showing which is nice--no surprises on the bill. 

There are others up here who play nasty tricks on people in the ring to throw the dogs off, who are rude and verbally abusive, and who have played really dirty tricks liked fabricating COE violations to get their competition suspended from the CKC. These are some very big name handlers up here and I find their tactics disgraceful. Even if they found a backer to pay the bill for showing the dog they would not be getting one of mine.


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## HiTideGoldens

Down the road I may show my own dogs, at least I hope to. I have a lot of respect for those who do it. I imagine that with our next puppy (whenever that happens) after Chloe I will probably show her in the puppy classes a bit on my own and then see how it goes. 

I'm very particular about letting Jack be away from us at shows. At our handlers house he has a great time and runs around like a madman playing all day. So I have no problem with him being there. The only time I get worried about him a bit is on the road, since I don't like the idea of him being crated for most of the day. Unfortunately, and realistically though, it has to be that way. A handler can't have all the dogs out at a time for so many safety and liability reasons. I guess the dogs get used to it, but that would be my main concern with having my dog out on the road for an extended period of time. And it's not because I have any issue with our handler, I just want Jack to be in the best mindset possible when he's in the ring. 

And there are handlers I've seen who I would never send my dog with. A friend of mine had one of her dogs handed off to another handler, like permanently in the other handler's care, without her knowledge. She only found out when the new handler called her to let her know the dog was finished. She was like "who are you?" Stuff like that is just unbelievable.

Shelly, how do they charge a flat rate for showing? Do you not pay for a share of expenses when you do ringside drop off?


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## whiskey creek goldens

I love my handler Lindsay Wendel. She is great with my dogs I think they love her more than me lol and I live that. I just sent my puppy bitch with her out of state for the fist time alone. Was I nevus not in the least! We have built a friendship over the past couple of years I trust her to do a better job with my dogs than I do.

The most important thing is to get to know your handler. find a handler that takes a limited number of dogs and that makes your dog a priority. 

I had a handler before Lindsay that did not show up to a ring. The out come was that I had to take my dog in the ring with less than show etier on needless to say that was the last time the handler worked for me. 

just my vew


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## Gwen

I had a handler before Lindsay that did not show up to a ring. The out come was that I had to take my dog in the ring with less than show etier on needless to say that was the last time the handler worked for me. 

just my vew[/QUOTE]

That's what many handlers forget - they work for us!


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## sterregold

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Shelly, how do they charge a flat rate for showing? Do you not pay for a share of expenses when you do ringside drop off?


Their fees are based on what they do. If they have the dog for the weekend, it is one price per day for board, grooming, and handling. If you are bringing the dog and they groom it then the boarding rate is not included, and if you have brought and groomed the dog then it is just the handling fee.

Instead of calculating the expenses and dividing them up and then having to bill everyone afterwards, they just claim the travel expenses against the income. It kind of makes sense with our high taxes up here as it reduces what is considered taxable income for them, and makes the bookkeeping simpler!


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## Ljilly28

This thread is in the blast from the past category, and made me realize how much I have learned. In the end, we found a happy home with Karen and Sam Mammano Handling. There is a special light in Karen, and she is so kind with dogs and brings out the best in goldens. Since they are not attending Westminster this year, Lush will be presented by the handler who started the thread, lol, Graeme Burdon from Canada. I am pleased to read so much praise of him here , as we are very used to Karen yet excited too to have such a talented guy guide Miss Plush.


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## arcane

Ljilly28 said:


> This thread is in the blast from the past category, and made me realize how much I have learned. In the end, we found a happy home with Karen and Sam Mammano Handling. There is a special light in Karen, and she is so kind with dogs and brings out the best in goldens. Since they are not attending Westminster this year, Lush will be presented by the handler who started the thread, lol, Graeme Burdon from Canada. I am pleased to read so much praise of him here , as we are very used to Karen yet excited too to have such a talented guy guide Miss Plush.


can't wait to see Graeme work his majic with Lushie!!!!!!!


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## tippykayak

Having seen Karen and Sam handle multiple dogs (including Lush) and also seeing Graeme handle, I've really felt like they cared about winning clean and about making sure the dogs showed well because they were having fun. This is just from watching them in and around the ring, mind you.

I've also seen handlers that make my blood boil, yanking and hitting their dogs. If a dog needs a stout smack on the nose multiple times in order to show well, is it really worth it? I mention that because I see it _constantly_ in the ring. Like I said, I've only ever seen Karen, Sam, and Graeme handle. I've never been a client. But I've never seen any of those three hit a dog they were handling.


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## luvyduvy

*Show dog handler fees*

I am a newbie at the dog shows. We have a handler who told us the cost of showing our dog. My question is if our handler is showing his own dogs, why is it necessary for us to pay his expenses? He is there anyway ...and we bring our own dog to the show. He brought four of his own dogs to show and only brought one other person's dog. What fees should we be paying? His wife does the grooming and I know we pay entry fees for two days. Should we be paying for his expenses? We did not receive an invoice and I was a bit confused, and still am about the cost. Who pays our expenses? We had to stay at hotel and took our dog with us, dinner, gas, etc. Just trying to understand this as it is very expensive and I had no idea just how expensive. Thanks for you help!


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## luvyduvy

Oops...I think this should have gone in as a question, not a reply.


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## Prism Goldens

If he has 5 other dogs showing, you'd pay 1/6 of his equipment wear and tear charge, vehicle wear and tear, gas, etc in expenses. The handlers I use don't charge for their meals, they have to eat where ever they are...but I know some do charge for meals. You'll also pay 1/6 of whatever the grooming space costs, etc. And whatever they charge for ringside pickup since you're taking the dog home each day- if he were staying w them, you'd pay boarding as well.
It IS expensive!


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## Prism Goldens

If you came away from the weekend for less than $350 you did okay.


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## luvyduvy

Thank you for your response. I still don't understand why am I paying for his showing his dogs? Why am I paying his expenses? Shouldn't I just be paying handlers fee, grooming and entry fee per day? I'm sorry if I sound redundant but I just don't get it. Is there somewhere I can look to see how these costs/fees/expenses are tallied? I thought I would only pay expenses if my dog was with the handler in his vehicle.


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## luvyduvy

How did you come up with $350? Just curious. Thanks so much for your help!


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## Prism Goldens

I was just ballparking- assuming a ringside for a class dog is $100 per, and expenses to get to the show/stay there ran you 75 per.

You pay for his expenses to get there etc because it is to your benefit that he is there, and his animals do pay their share of his expenses. You are not paying his entries, or things that are his dogs' alone- just what 'costs' for the whole group. It wasn't too long ago - last year even- that ringside pickups didn't share in the expenses..but once it caught on, it caught on and now everyone charges the ringsides.


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## Prism Goldens

You SHOULD get a rate card- that would explain what he charges for everything but expenses.


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## Ljilly28

Each handler is kind of a world unto themselves- it can be bemusing, frustrating, confusing, amusing and everything else. If they are a registered PHA or AKC handler, they have some rules and most have some kind of rate schedule. It can be exasperating- like when you have to pay the handling fee but the 20 year old assistant shows your dog all weekend instead of Famous Handler you thought you hired and generally there is a pecking order of specials who live with the handler, then class dogs wh live with the handler, then regular clients with ringside one timers coming lower priority etc. However, the handler should be clear and honest with you about your dog's place in the order and what happens in a schedule conflict as well as all fees.


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## Megora

Prism Goldens said:


> It wasn't too long ago - last year even- that ringside pickups didn't share in the expenses..but once it caught on, it caught on and now everyone charges the ringsides.


I would think that ringside pick up should definitely be reflected in the charges if only because I've set up with people and have been really surprised by how much work they have to do the first day of a weekend with a ringside drop off... stuff you wouldn't expect, like people dropping dogs off and then later on (like after the handler has started grooming) calling the handler and telling them they might want to go walk the dogs because the owner did not potty them that morning to make sure they don't poop in the ring... things like that. 

Another time, I was at a specialty and somebody dropped off a dog within an hour of showing... who had two hours worth of grooming that needed to be done. 

By comparison - dogs who are owned by the handlers or cases like myself with my dog who I show myself - generally are groomed the day(s) before the show and there's maybe only 30-45 minutes worth of work that needs to go into grooming them the day of the show. Maybe longer if there's a bath involved. 

Again, I've set up with friends who are handling for other people and while they do have an assembly line minutes before the classes start with last minute stuff with all the dogs.... the majority of the major league grooming is done on dogs who were dropped off at the show. At least to my observation.

Other thing too is in the ring as well - sometimes handlers get dogs dropped off with them who have very little training as far as stacking and gaiting - and might be very green. As opposed to a very polished dog who could do the whole ring routine by himself he's so used to everything.


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## K9-Design

Get a rate card and a contract before proceeding. You should have the answers to your questions before you ever agree to use this handler's services...otherwise this is exactly how arguments and lawsuits begin!


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## hotel4dogs

Most handlers that I know of do add the ringside dogs in to the number of dogs when it comes to splitting the expenses. But they also add their own dogs in. So if the handler you refer to is showing your dog, one other dog, and their own 4 dogs, you would pay 1/6th of the expenses. 
It seems only fair to me. The people who send the dogs out with the handler are also, as others have said, paying boarding to the handler for the same days that the dogs are at the show. You are not paying the boarding. So everyone has to split the expenses evenly. It's like bringing in a doctor to see multiple dogs, everyone splits the doctor's expenses, even though they bring their own dogs there and home. 
The well known handlers show many dogs, and the travel expenses don't end up being very high really. It was not uncommon for them to be split 20 ways when I was doing the ringside pickups for my boy. Even if their travel expenses were $2000 for the weekend it would still only be $100 per owner. 
But as several have said, these things need to be determined in advance, and you should have a signed contract before you proceed.
These folks are very very well known (and do an awesome job), you might want to take a look at their contract just to get an idea of what a good contract will say:
http://www.bluerosekennels.com/Blueroserates.pdf
edit to add...I pulled that directly from their website, so there are no privacy/copyright issues


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## luvyduvy

*Handler fees*

So how do you know exactly what their expenses are or do you just go on an honor system? 
I guess for me, and since I am new to all of this, I still don't get why if the handler has to be there anyway (for their dogs) they should only be changing expenses for the dogs they are bringing. 
I am at the ringside and bring my own dog which is an expense in itself. 
That means I have my expenses plus the handlers? This would only make sense to me if the handler was bringing my dog. Is this because the majority of people board and allow the handler to bring their dog? I really prefer my dog to be with me and thought I would be paying a lot of fees but NEVER thought I'd be paying their expenses. Just don't get it ?


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## Ljilly28

luvyduvy said:


> So how do you know exactly what their expenses are or do you just go on an honor system?
> I guess for me, and since I am new to all of this, I still don't get why if the handler has to be there anyway (for their dogs) they should only be changing expenses for the dogs they are bringing.
> I am at the ringside and bring my own dog which is an expense in itself.
> That means I have my expenses plus the handlers? This would only make sense to me if the handler was bringing my dog. Is this because the majority of people board and allow the handler to bring their dog? I really prefer my dog to be with me and thought I would be paying a lot of fees but NEVER thought I'd be paying their expenses. Just don't get it ?


There is a wide variety of ways handlers deal with this. Some charge maybe 80 dollars to handle a dog who lives with them but 115 to handle a ringside pick up etc. For a handler, dealing with the ringside pick up is often a PIA compared to dogs they get ready themselves and already know. Many bigger handlers have to resolve schedule conflicts even between specials they show, and down the food chain from there. It is really hard to be a class dog in a ringside situation, unless the schedule works out perfectly. I have never seen a contract for a ringside dog, which doesnt mean they don't exist, but there should be a rate sheet with the policy you can read. In the end, if you disagree with the handler's policy, you have to either live with it or switch teams.


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## hotel4dogs

They are there to make money, not to show their own dogs. It's what they do for a living. If they weren't also showing other peoples' dogs, chances are they wouldn't go, at least the handlers I know.


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## LJack

luvyduvy said:


> So how do you know exactly what their expenses are or do you just go on an honor system?
> I guess for me, and since I am new to all of this, I still don't get why if the handler has to be there anyway (for their dogs) they should only be changing expenses for the dogs they are bringing.
> I am at the ringside and bring my own dog which is an expense in itself.
> That means I have my expenses plus the handlers? This would only make sense to me if the handler was bringing my dog. Is this because the majority of people board and allow the handler to bring their dog? I really prefer my dog to be with me and thought I would be paying a lot of fees but NEVER thought I'd be paying their expenses. Just don't get it ?


It is like any service agreement. You as the client/shopper vote with your business. If you don't like it or don't agree, you take your business elsewhere. 

In this case though, you are not likely to find what you consider fair. This is pretty common. 

My question is if you are already there, why don't you show the dog? Then you will truly have only your own expenses. 

As far as ringside drop off, I am not a big fan. I do know of a very few dogs that this has worked for but too many times the ringside drop offs are at a huge disadvantage. They are not and should not be the priority dog. So, if your dog wins their class but another dog on the show string also wins, the ringside drop off will be handed off so the pro stays with the dog on the string. Also, the ringside dogs do not have the advantage of training and bonding as a team with the handler. It is very hard to win if the ringside dog is up against similar quality animals who's handlers have the advantage of a well-oiled working relationship. Too many times I have see ringside drop off dogs take a lot longer to finish if they ever do. One of my friends who did this joked that she knew her dog was the "gas money" dog. She knew her dog was not the priority and it would only be the luck of a perfect judge for her dog that he could win. That pro never even pointed the dog, she did herself as an owner handler. 

Ultimately, you have to make the best decision for you and your dog. If you can't bear to have the dog gone, you have to decide on showing yourself if you can or being the low priority drop off. No matter what, if you use an handler you are looking at the fees for handling and the expenses.


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## hotel4dogs

Totally agree that the OP should consider showing their own dog, as they are not likely to find what they consider fair, at least not from the better handlers. 

Regarding ringside pickups, though, that was not my experience once I settled on one handler. My boy finished faster than any of the string dogs. I always felt he was given just as much attention and priority as they were. Further, if one of the dogs they owned won a class, and Tito won a class, they handed off their own dog and took Tito in themselves. So I think it depends on your handler.




LJack said:


> It is like any service agreement. You as the client/shopper vote with your business. If you don't like it or don't agree, you take your business elsewhere.
> 
> In this case though, you are not likely to find what you consider fair. This is pretty common.
> 
> My question is if you are already there, why don't you show the dog? Then you will truly have only your own expenses.
> 
> As far as ringside drop off, I am not a big fan. I do know of a very few dogs that this has worked for but too many times the ringside drop offs are at a huge disadvantage. They are not and should not be the priority dog. So, if your dog wins their class but another dog on the show string also wins, the ringside drop off will be handed off so the pro stays with the dog on the string. Also, the ringside dogs do not have the advantage of training and bonding as a team with the handler. It is very hard to win if the ringside dog is up against similar quality animals who's handlers have the advantage of a well-oiled working relationship. Too many times I have see ringside drop off dogs take a lot longer to finish if they ever do. One of my friends who did this joked that she knew her dog was the "gas money" dog. She knew her dog was not the priority and it would only be the luck of a perfect judge for her dog that he could win. That pro never even pointed the dog, she did herself as an owner handler.
> 
> Ultimately, you have to make the best decision for you and your dog. If you can't bear to have the dog gone, you have to decide on showing yourself if you can or being the low priority drop off. No matter what, if you use an handler you are looking at the fees for handling and the expenses.


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## LJack

hotel4dogs said:


> Regarding ringside pickups, though, that was not my experience once I settled on one handler. My boy finished faster than any of the string dogs. I always felt he was given just as much attention and priority as they were. Further, if one of the dogs they owned won a class, and Tito won a class, they handed off their own dog and took Tito in themselves. So I think it depends on your handler.


Your Tito was the rare dog I was alluding to finishing quickly as a ringside drop off. I am wondering if area of the country has something to do with it? The west coast in goldens just does not seem to have as many successful handlers available as your area. I mean it is common for our handlers out here to have strings of 6-14 goldens! So, here they simply don't seem to pick the ringside dogs over what is usually several of the string dogs.

Here, if I was looking to do ringside, I think I would look for a sporting dog handler who did not have any Goldens or at least none of my dog's gender. 

But I still say if you are physically able to show yourself, that is a good option from a cost stand point. That is why I do it, I am not a wealthy lady. I simply can't afford a handler.


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## DanaRuns

luvyduvy said:


> So how do you know exactly what their expenses are or do you just go on an honor system?
> I guess for me, and since I am new to all of this, I still don't get why if the handler has to be there anyway (for their dogs) they should only be changing expenses for the dogs they are bringing.
> I am at the ringside and bring my own dog which is an expense in itself.
> That means I have my expenses plus the handlers? This would only make sense to me if the handler was bringing my dog. Is this because the majority of people board and allow the handler to bring their dog? I really prefer my dog to be with me and thought I would be paying a lot of fees but NEVER thought I'd be paying their expenses. Just don't get it ��


It has been explained well, so I think you do "get it," you just don't like it, which I completely understand. But it's a convention in the business, so you're just going to have to accept it (and everyone will like it better if you do so with good cheer) or do what others suggested and show your own dog, because I don't think you're going to change it.

Let's look at the sharing issue from the other side: I have my dogs with their handler, and I pay for the handler to go to the show and stay in a hotel so he is there at the show in order to be available to show my dogs at this show. Now some ringside drop-off comes by and uses the exact same show services I do, but doesn't have to pay her part for getting the handler to the show? They take my handler's time, compete against my dog if they're the same breed, and possibly bump my dog to someone else if the drop-off gets priority, and I have to pay MORE? How is that fair to me? Yes, my dogs live with the handler, but what you may not be considering is that _I pay a separate, additional fee_ just for my dogs to stay there. This is a fee you don't have to pay. Your share of the expenses does _not_ include the cost of the dogs living and traveling with the handler.

And by the way, I'm ringside, too. I have my own expenses, too. In fact, I'm writing this post from a dog show 450 miles away from my home. In order to be here, I had to buy a motorhome, pay for maintenance, insurance, a gazillion gallons of fuel, and then pay for the motorhome space at the show, and another charge for access to electricity and any other services available (water, waste discharge, showers, laundry, etc.). I have to eat out or buy food to cook in the motorhome. I paid a housesitter to take care of my other pets. I dare say, I'm paying a lot more than someone who just drives down for the day and drops their dog off, and I have to pay the handler's expenses in addition to my own. So someone in my position really isn't grieving with you for the money you spend to be there and share in your handler's expenses, too.

It is an almost universally implemented system of sharing handlers' expenses. I'm not sure why you don't think you should share in them when the handler is taking just as much time with your dog as he is with mine. Make sense? We're all in this together. It's expensive. And sometimes the charges are mystifying. But it's how this business of dog shows works. Join us all in paying for our handlers' expenses, or show your own dog and pay only your own, so I don't have to subsidize your already cheaper ringside drop-off.

And by the way, most of the handlers I know pretty much dislike ringside drop-offs. I was just listening to them complain, yesterday, about someone who delivered the dog two hours before showtime, and the dog had not been bathed or groomed. Those things interrupt their normal work flow, and it reflects poorly on them if they take a dog into the ring that isn't perfectly groomed and trained. So if you do ringside drop-off, please make sure your dog is sparkling clean with a luxurious coat, is exercised and road-worked to peak condition, and is at least reasonably groomed so they only have to top it off and don't have to groom from scratch mere hours before the show when they are working on several other dogs and trying to get to three different rings at once.


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## hotel4dogs

I wasn't going to add this because it sounds like shameless bragging, but to give a more fair idea of how ringside worked for us I should have probably also noted that the handler who agreed to do ringside for Tito did it only after meeting him, going over him carefully, and gaiting him. They always have many, many goldens on their string, and they breed goldens. They told me, exactly, "we don't take just any dog, we have a reputation to uphold.". So not every dog *qualifies* for ringside pickups, at least among the best of the handlers. To be perfectly honest I was so thrilled that they were willing to take him ringside I never would have even thought to question the fee structure. Since these people have a waiting list to get on their string, they give an honest.opinion of your dog's chances to finish in a reasonable amount of time. I'm sure they don't continue to show for people who bring the dog in a mess, requiring hours of their time. At the time that they were showing Tito he was their only ringside dog, so they may only take 1 at a time, I'm not sure. 
Also during the short time they were showing Tito they sent 2 of their class Goldens home because they felt the dogs weren't doing well and the owners were wasting their money. To me this is another sign of a reputable handler.
And, when Tito finished his CH they would not take him in the ring the rest of that weekend because they said it would not be fair to the owners of their Special, who had spent a LOT of money with them, to take a competing dog in the ring. They offered to help me find someone else since he was already entered, but we went dock diving instead  .


LJack said:


> Your Tito was the rare dog I was alluding to finishing quickly as a ringside drop off. I am wondering if area of the country has something to do with it? The west coast in goldens just does not seem to have as many successful handlers available as your area. I mean it is common for our handlers out here to have strings of 6-14 goldens! So, here they simply don't seem to pick the ringside dogs over what is usually several of the string dogs.
> 
> Here, if I was looking to do ringside, I think I would look for a sporting dog handler who did not have any Goldens or at least none of my dog's gender.
> 
> But I still say if you are physically able to show yourself, that is a good option from a cost stand point. That is why I do it, I am not a wealthy lady. I simply can't afford a handler.


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## geardaddy737

Gwen said:


> Personally, I would like to see judges become more active in disciplining anyone in the ring who abuses their dog. I did once see a judge verbally chastise a professional handler after his dog had a huge bowel movement in the ring. The judge said that the dog obviously had not been given the opportunity to do his business outside of the ring & that it must have been very painful for him. She further said that the dog was very upset by what had happened & that it was the handler's fault! YEAHHHHH When the cleaning crew came, the judge had them leave their equipment, she took the dog and made the handler clean up the mess!!!!! The handler was a little red in the face :--ashamed: I applaud that judge!



Now that is an awesome judge , and person in general


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