# Max bit my son today!!!



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Have you ever watched Victoria Stillwell? There was a recent show where she put a pile of chocolates on the table and started eating them. She kept telling the kids they couldn't have any. She pointed out that eating in front of a dog in an area where the dog is out and about is like eating good chocolates in front of the kids. They don't understand why they can't have what the child has, they are dogs and act like a dog will when another has something super yummy. And watermelon is super yummy to my dogs, and I assume other dogs.

I am so sorry your son was bitten! It's not his fault and I hope he isn't afraid of your dog from here on out. But keep in mind that a child walking around with food in his/her hand and an adolescent dog do not make a good match.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Crystal: I'm so sorry for your son and Max!! I certainly don't believe Max bit your son out of anything but wanting that watermelon. One of the first things we taught our dogs was to "leave it" and "don't touch". My goal was to make sure they didn't or don't take anything that is not given to them. If I drop a piece of food on the floor, I use one of those phrases and 99.9% of the time it is successful. While we don't have kids at home, many of our friends do and I don't want what happened with Max and your son to happen to any of these kids. 

Can you rent some DVDs to help you with obedience training Max? I really think he'd benefit with some additional training. I know it's frustrating but I hope you don't give up on him. Perhaps you need to keep Max gated away from your family during meals or snack time....just the urge can be too much for him.

I know there are far more experienced people on here that can help you.....just wanted to say I was sorry and tell you what worked for us.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Oh my, how distressing. Hopefully those with expert knowledge will come in here with specific steps/advice but I'd be on him like white on rice for a long while especially when it comes to food.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

So sorry you and your son are going through this. Hand feeding Max his meals may be one way help get over his food aggression. I had to do this when Oakly was a pup. When feeding turn your hand and don't give the food up until Max is gentle. Good luck to you.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Do you have any funds towards training? Can you start saving for that? Do you have any for resources? Do you have a good relationship with your vet? You may be able to find a trainer who will let you make payments, if you provide a referral/contact-sort-of-person, such as your vet, that you will follow through.

1. Puppies and kids need to be supervised 100% of the time.
2. As he hasn't been trained to be good around food, he is always crated while kids are eating.
3. Always crate him with his chews/valued toys.
4. When he is around the kids, keep him on leash. He should be tired and quiet then. So should the kids.
5. Stop the punishment. It can increase frustration and aggression. We cannot risk that increasing, or being directed to the kids.
6. Watch some of the www.youtube.com/kikopup videos . Teach Max some of the silly tricks and useful behaviors. The tricks can help your relationship, help tire him out, and help him learn how to learn.
7. Start saving for training/help
8. Be sure he is getting sufficient exercise. There should be variety in where you exercise, when, how long, and the type.
9. Feed ALL meals through training or kibble dispensing toys. No food bowl. Get rid of it.
10. Have management in place. 2-3 doors/barriers/gates/crates between him and the kids at all times until you have fluent behaviors in place. 

I'm not sure what one book might be best for you... I'm leaning towards "Control Unleashed". It doesn't cover super basics so I don't know if it would be over your head at the moment, but it's all about teaching dogs self control. Those are the types of activities I would have you work on if you were in my classes.

"Mine" by Jean Donaldson deals with resource guarding, but I get the impression he "steals and runs" rather than resource guards.


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## Allan's Girl (Apr 16, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> Do you have any funds towards training? Can you start saving for that? Do you have any for resources? Do you have a good relationship with your vet? You may be able to find a trainer who will let you make payments, if you provide a referral/contact-sort-of-person, such as your vet, that you will follow through.
> 
> 1. Puppies and kids need to be supervised 100% of the time.
> 2. As he hasn't been trained to be good around food, he is always crated while kids are eating.
> ...


Wow! this is such great advice.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree with RedDogs 100 percent, especially that reading the recommended books will help and getting Max the daily hard exercise he needs to be fulfilled and calm is imperative before any training will kick in. 3 year olds and teeneage pups are a hard combo, and I feel for you. Try setting up a few tethers around the house in places the family hangs out, and give him a mat or a towel/ blanket/bed of his own in those spots. That way, he can be with you, but not loose when food is around.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Thank you all for your support and advice. I really appreciate all your kind words and suggestions. Unfortunately with our funds being so low right now I don't have the option to do training....heck we don't even have enough to pay our bills somedays

I'm going to try the hand feeding suggestion and look into renting a training DVD. I'm also going to check out the library for the books suggested. I'm frustrated with the situation because I wanted a dog that I didn't have to gate or leash in my home. That is no life for a dog IMO. Plus Max always has to be under our feet so I'm not sure this would work for him I want Max to be a family pet. To be able to be with us wherever we are in the house without being caged or tied up. I have to be honest....I really can't see ANYTHING helping to get Max to listen to me. He just ignores what I say. I wish I could call in the Dog Whisperer!!

P.S. Thankfully this hasn't scared my son at all. After he stopped crying he was hugging Max and telling him he was his 'best puppy'


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Max is in that obnoxious, difficult stage. It's a stage I avoid in dogs (I always adopt mature dogs), but I've read enough on this forum to know that this is a very trying age. Kind of like living with a teenager (something I do have experience with). I hope you are able to figure out a way to help Max. Glad your son is OK and not frightened of Max.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Management is your best friend right now, especially if you aren't in a position to seek help with professional training.

Dogs are scavengers. If a small person is wandering around with food and the dog isn't being supervised, you're likely to have a problem.

You may want a dog who can always hang out with you, but w/o training, that isn't realistic. No loose dogs and loose, food-toting kids in the same room!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I understand exactly what you're saying about not wanting to keep him confined in the house, but understand that none of these suggestions are permanent solutions. They are only ways to manage the situation while you are teaching Max the steps along the way. No dog (not even a golden  ) comes out "out-of-the-box" ready to take on our human rules. They all falter and they all take time to become the wonderful family pets we dream of. But the more we allow them to find reward in doing the wrong thing (yummy watermelon for snapping at your son), the more those behaviors will manifest. We have to set them up to succeed, and that usually means limiting their freedom until they learn what we expect from them.

The key to getting Max to listen to you is showing him that doing so brings him wonderful things. It will not happen overnight, and it's going to take daily work (even just a few minutes at a time a couple times a day). Careful with following the example of the "Dog Whisperer." I'm not sure what he's doing on his show now, but early seasons showed a very confrontational and punishment-oriented style of training. This type of interaction with your dog is very likely to push you two further apart, rather than building the relationship. 

Best of luck with your pup! Keep us posted!

Julie and Jersey


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I present the "Be a Tree" dog bite prevention program to elem. students. Go to www.doggonsafe.ca and read the info there.

"Dogs do not like hugs and kisses".

You absolutely need to implement management into your home and keep all kid-dog interactions safe and predicable and calm. If you are unable or unwilling to do this (or even if you are...), it may be wise to contact local golden rescues to ask for assistance. Kids and dogs are great! You very much love your dog! MANY MANY MANY people work through issues like this. Please understand I'm only listing that as an option that is available, not as a specific recommendation or a criticism. 

But safety comes first and we need to change things around to prevent more incidents. 

Do not follow every piece of advice you receive (....hah...I realize it is all so contradictory!). Not all materials at your library are recent or scientifically accurate. Much of what our library has is just plain outdated and can do more harm than good. YES check your library! YES ask questions here! But please be careful.

Contact your local shelters/rescues. They may have "scholarship" funds available or behavior resources for people in your situation. Some of the big facilities do. 

We do want to help you but please keep everyone safe. The management is to prevent your kids from being hurt, to decrease the liklihood of another bite on Max's record, and to decrease the times he is stealing food. Every single time he steals food you are setting yourselves back in training. The management is put in place until his training to leave it alone is fluent. Until then, we need to avoid him being inadvertently reinforced.

Please let us know how we can help,


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

CrystalG said:


> . . . I'm frustrated with the situation because I wanted a dog that I didn't have to gate or leash in my home. That is no life for a dog IMO. . . .)


Good luck with your training, and I'm glad your son wasn't seriously hurt. 

IMHO, and please, I'm saying this with all due care and concern, the life that your dog has is "no life for a dog" either. One owner that he listens to (your husband)--but another he ignores many times (you). Boundaries not set; commands not taught. The house is in a state of concern because of his behavior (but the dog doesn't really understand--the dog got what he wanted, the food, and believe me, if an opportunity occurs again, he will try again). "That is no life for a dog."


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> I present the "Be a Tree" dog bite prevention program to elem. students. Go to www.doggonsafe.ca and read the info there.
> 
> "Dogs do not like hugs and kisses".
> 
> ...


Gosh, I hope my last post didn't come across the wrong way:doh:. I didn't take any of the posts as criticism in any way! I'm sorry if it came across like that:uhoh:! Quite the contrary actually. I value your opinion GREATLY.

I will openly admit this....I am an amateur and I am one of those people who 'thought' a Golden would come out of the box perfect. Obviously I was very nieve thinking this. If I had of done proper research my decision to get a Golden probably would have been delayed until my son was older. With the LONG puppy/teenage stage Goldens have this would have worked better. But Max is here and I need to deal with my iresponsible research:doh:

I agree totally with the management. I just don't know how to make it work in my house. Max is extremely strong and I don't think a gate or tether would work...he'd rip my house apart trying to get out!! Could I crate him? With me not working I am always home as is my toddler. Also, Max follows my son everywhere and I'm sure he will bark his golden head off trying to get free.

The only animal shelter we have here on the Island is the Humane Society. As far as I know they only take in surrendered pets and adopt them out. They don't offer any kind of assistance unfortunately.

I'm frustated because I think I am in way over my head. I obviously wasn't anticipating being out of work when we got Max. I love him to death but I don't feel I am giving him or can give him what he needs.....

Thanks again for your advice...I hope I didn't offend you in any way!:


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

rappwizard said:


> Good luck with your training, and I'm glad your son wasn't seriously hurt.
> 
> IMHO, and please, I'm saying this with all due care and concern, the life that your dog has is "no life for a dog" either. One owner that he listens to (your husband)--but another he ignores many times (you). Boundaries not set; commands not taught. The house is in a state of concern because of his behavior (but the dog doesn't really understand--the dog got what he wanted, the food, and believe me, if an opportunity occurs again, he will try again). "That is no life for a dog."


Thanks for your post. I agree with you about Max's current 'life' but he does have boundaries and commands were taught to him. For some reason he just won't listen to the commands if they are coming from me I don't want people thinking he runs rampid around my home all the time. When my husband is home Max is a totally different dog.


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## iamswiss (Aug 6, 2009)

I also have a 3 1/2 year old boy and wasn't aware of all the "work and pain" I will have with a golden puppy and a toddler. There are days I regret the deciscion on getting a Golden retriever puppy, but there are getting fewer and fewer!

Inside the house I have to keep them apart most of the day, also because my son has plenty of little toys laying around in the living room and she would just grab them. I would spend most of the time running after her to tell her "drop it", that's why we have gates and without I would be lost. I really recommend on getting some gates and maybe you have some friends who don't need theirs anymore, so you don't have to spend the money on them. Or you can buy an used gate cheap on ebay or any other site.

A few weeks back I started having them together outside in the backyard and Bailey has been really good, it's more my son who's sometimes going crazy or who doesn't listen well. She still goes nuts and tries to nip him when he runs around (of course I tell him not to run with her there). But other than that she's so good even with him crazy racing around with his tricycle.

We've been to Obedience Classes with Bailey since she's 3 1/2 months old and if you can't afford classes I really recommend watching videos on youtube or reading some of the suggested books.

Good luck to you and hang in there, it will get better.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

iamswiss said:


> I also have a 3 1/2 year old boy and wasn't aware of all the "work and pain" I will have with a golden puppy and a toddler. There are days I regret the deciscion on getting a Golden retriever puppy, but there are getting fewer and fewer!
> 
> Inside the house I have to keep them apart most of the day, also because my son has plenty of little toys laying around in the living room and she would just grab them. I would spend most of the time running after her to tell her "drop it", that's why we have gates and without I would be lost. I really recommend on getting some gates and maybe you have some friends who don't need theirs anymore, so you don't have to spend the money on them. Or you can buy an used gate cheap on ebay or any other site.
> 
> ...


Thank you SO much for this. It's nice to know I'm not the only one who has the regretting days. I'm glad to hear yours are getting to be fewer and fewer:

The gates are a great idea, but the wouldn't work in my house....only in one area that wouldn't be big enough for Max to be in. The rest of my house is very open. 

Thanks for the wishes of luck....good luck to you too!!:


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am sorry your son got bit and I am glad that he isnt scared of Max. Dont feel bad I dont have kids and this age almost drove me crazy with Bama. He became a wild child overnight and it was like all his training went out of the window. And then one day it was like the light switch came back on. Make a special time for your son, when he has a snack time, that it is the time for Max to go in his crate. Give Max a treat in his crate at the same time so it doesnt seem like a punishment to him. 

Do the NILIF like RedDog suggested of feeding him everything by hand. Since you cant afford outside training (and I totally understand) try watching Victoria Stilwell's show It's Me or the Dog" she has some good everyday tips to use for training. Her show comes on in the morning and on Sat night. I have picked up things on there that I have used with mine or some of my fosters. Also try putting a leash on Max so you can control where he goes. Use treats to reinforce his good behavior. 

Good luck and give your son and max a hug.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

CrystalG said:


> Gosh, I hope my last post didn't come across the wrong way:doh:. I didn't take any of the posts as criticism in any way! I'm sorry if it came across like that:uhoh:! Quite the contrary actually. I value your opinion GREATLY.
> 
> I will openly admit this....I am an amateur and I am one of those people who 'thought' a Golden would come out of the box perfect. Obviously I was very nieve thinking this. If I had of done proper research my decision to get a Golden probably would have been delayed until my son was older. With the LONG puppy/teenage stage Goldens have this would have worked better. But Max is here and I need to deal with my iresponsible research:doh:
> 
> ...


 
Um, well, you can't just blanket say - I don't think this will work or this will work or this will work and not even try them. It's a fatalist and defeatist attitude and likely, you're not going to find success if you keep making excuses on why you couldn't try any of these things. What you need more than anything right now is a can do attitude. Think of yourself as the little train that could. I don't get why you flat out say, tethering just won't work when it is such an easy thing to give a go. The gate thing as well - I am sure with a 3 year old you have at least one baby gate sitting around the house. When you tether him at first he very well may try to drag you around the house - you should not expect that the instant you do this, the result will be he perfectly follows you around and doesn't pull at all. That takes time. You can't expect that when you put him behind a gate for the first time that he will respect that boundary unquestionably. He will need to learn to and it will be your job to teach him. That will take time. If you give an honest go with the right amount of time applied to these first two and Max still isn't behaving how you'd like, then try the crate. Again, most dogs don't go in loving their crates. You teach them to love the crate and again, that takes time. 

I think perhaps you are still expecting the perfect dog out of the box or the perfect solution that takes no time invested and neither of those things exist. It takes a lot of time to get your dog where you want him to be. I've invested hours and hours and hours to Max's come command and finally he listens without thinking. I've invested hours and hours and hours on walking nicely and heck, I see there are a lot more hours to go before I get him to where I'd like him to be. 

Hoping you don't take this the wrong way - I'm not trying to be rude or negative - just being straight forward here. I know that as a person who expected that dog in a box, I'm still learning here but I've learned to try many things before finding the thing that works for us. Still looking on the walking thing!!!! And that list goes, collar, stopping and turning when he pulls, making him wait, easy walk harness, martinggale, learning that treating a lot is the best way to teach him this, thinking of getting the gentle leader if that doesn't work. And if the gentle leader doesn't help much after 2 months, well, then it's onto the next thing!!!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I was wanting to be sure I didn't offend you! Now that we're on the same page....

Yes, use the crate, but also use a gate/door between where you/your son are. You can teach Max to be quiet in his crate and you can work towards teaching him to stay on one side of gates. (note to all puppy owners, please do this...it's worth it to do when your puppy is young, way easier!). 

Seriously, the more silly tricks and simple behaviors you teach, the better your long term outcome. The gating/crating especially when the family is eating is for everyone's safety. He could hurt someone, and esp one of the kids again.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

You're really lucky that several professional and experienced amateur dog trainers have given you spectacular advice here. RedDogs, LJilly, Jersey's Mom, and FlyingQuizini (and others) have an extraordinary amount of experience and tons of credentials between them.

Your dog is young and bratty, and the bite he gave your son, while totally unacceptable, was a bratty, food stealing bite, not an aggressive one nor a definitive sign that he'll end up a dangerous dog around kids.

No excuses now. Follow the advice RedDogs gave you, and don't compromise on the positivity and the supervision. You also need an experienced trainer to work directly with you, whether that's through a class or through a home visit. If Max is ignoring your commands, then you've taught him he doesn't need to obey them. There are probably a series of common mistakes you're making the way you communicate and reinforce commands, and it's very hard to help you refine your technique without seeing you in action.

For example, a common mistake is to repeat commands. If you say "sit" and the dog doesn't sit, you can't repeat the word "sit." You need to change the conditions of the situation before you try again. That's just one of a million ways you could be undermining his ability or willingness to obey you.

Most of your problems with this dog are only going to be solved by training you and your family first. When a dog's problem is that he's acting like a dog (stealing food, biting family to get what he wants, etc.), the responsibility lies with the people, not the pup.

NEVER hit the dog again, and do not allow anyone else in the house to do so. The way you mentioned your husband made me a little concerned that he might have "punished" the dog for his behavior. Striking the dog (even a "swat" on the butt) is a surefire way to turn bratty mouthiness into fear aggression. He bit your son just hard enough to get what he wanted this time. If you turn him fear aggressive, his bites will break the skin and do serious damage.

Good luck! While Goldens do not come out of the box as terrific family dogs, they are well suited to the job when given the right structure. Manage the problems you currently have by preventing the dog from following through on them (e.g., no access to kids with food for the time being). Train the skills you'll want down the road so you can reduce management (e.g., work on "leave it" now, so some day he can be around kids with food again). Exercise the dog a ton (a tired dog is a good dog). And keep it positive!


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## eirepup (Apr 14, 2010)

I had the same problem with Finn when my neice was living with us and started walking he would snatch food out of her hand because the food would be level with his face and he couldn't resist even though he is very well behaved. We taught Finn "out" were he has to leave the room and he's a good listener so we tell him to leave the room when my neice is eating so the temptation isn't there. I agree with others that seperating Max from the temptation with a crate or babygate is the best way to go.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

You've gotten some *really* good advice so far. My suggestion would be to take something awful like getting laid off from your dog and turn it into something positive. Tired dogs are good dogs (especially teenage puppies). I'm sure your son would love to go walking with you and Max or go to the park or take Max swimming. I know you have to be careful because of his hips, but I'm sure your vet would have suggestions as to "Max-approved activities" that you can do to get some of his excess energy under control (and ALL teenage puppies have excess energy!). He will be better able listen and have self-control if he's not bursting at the seams. 

And just think, you've got the time now for lots and lots of short training sessions throughout the day. Of course you can't focus all your time on the dog with a toddler, but your son should be old enough to be occupied for a few minutes at a time with his toys, etc. and then you can work with Max. Training sessions shouldn't be long, time consuming marathons. Three to five minutes at a time is plenty. If you are consistant, Max will soon be listening to you rather than your husband!


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

I'm sorry this happened to your son and I'm glad he wasn't badly injured. But, I don't think Max actually "bit" your son. Your son probably 'zigged' when he should have 'zagged' when Max took the watermelon. I'm not saying your son did anything wrong but he probably pulled the watermelon towards him as Max tried to get it, and Max, still being a puppy, didn't gage his grab very well.

My just-turned 5 y.o. granddaughter lives here and my Hank is 10 mos. so I go through this daily. If my granddaughter is eating a snack while watching TV, I gate Hank in the kitchen. I also gate him in the laundry room if she has a friend over. At 10 mos. Hank still doesn't have the maturity or self control to remember his training at times and the kids are just the right height for an easy food snatch. I wish I could take the baby gates down, but with a child in the house, they are necessary.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I am going to wholeheartedly second Tippykayak's note that you have received a wealth of great advice from some very knowledgeable people.

I just wanted to add, that while I know you wanted a dog that could hang out with you and your kids - and eventually you will have that - consider this. Your son had a baby bed with rails, he probably had a play pen you put him in when you couldn't have hands on him, he most likely eats in a high chair, all of those things to keep him safe and secure in specific situations. 

A crate, and baby gates are the same concept for Max. They provide security, safety, and structure, for now, not always.

You can do this, and one day in the future you will look at Max and realize you have that wonderful family companion you wanted.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Just for the record....

#1 - I am NOT making excuses for trying any of these things. Like I stated, there is only one place a gate would work in my home and it's not a big enough space for Max. I'm stating what can work because I'm the one who knows what will work in my house. I don't see tethering working very well either....how am I supposed to chase a toddler around with a dog tied to my waist? Maybe some of you don't understand since you've never had toddlers and a teenage golden. I don't know. 

#2 - My husband is not a 'dog beater' in any means and I resent the fact that some of you think that. My husband is seen as the alpha in my home. Max respects him. All he needs is eye contact. Simple as that. And he didn't have to do hours and hours and hours of training to get that respect either.

#3 - I agree Max's intentions were not to bite my son. He was simply after the watermelon.

#4 - It is hard to get Max's attention in my home since my son may have ADHD (no dx yet) and he is ALWAYS running about and making noise. Some of you will say 'keep your child quiet or tell him not to be loud around Max'. That is easier said than done with a hyperactive 3-year-old.

I do appreciate ALL of your advice. Yes I have gotten great advice from a lot of the best informed members on this site. BUT, not everything works for everybody. I am willing to try the suggestions made that will work for me.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Yep. My first Golden Rusty was a big Teddy Bear. His one and only biting incident, ever, involved a young girl and Pizza.



fostermom said:


> Have you ever watched Victoria Stillwell? There was a recent show where she put a pile of chocolates on the table and started eating them. She kept telling the kids they couldn't have any. She pointed out that eating in front of a dog in an area where the dog is out and about is like eating good chocolates in front of the kids. They don't understand why they can't have what the child has, they are dogs and act like a dog will when another has something super yummy. And watermelon is super yummy to my dogs, and I assume other dogs.
> 
> I am so sorry your son was bitten! It's not his fault and I hope he isn't afraid of your dog from here on out. But keep in mind that a child walking around with food in his/her hand and an adolescent dog do not make a good match.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

If you have any super heavy furniture you can tether him to that. Some people can hook a leash to a doorknob and take the leash over/under/around a closed door as a containment option. A small space may be better than more of a bite history. Or use his crate.

If you are thinking about dominance hierarchies, maybe sit down and read and discuss this paper with your husband:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

Maybe think of it not so much as 'respect' but reinforcement history (relationship). Your interactions with him are different than your husbands. Dogs do what works to get attention and to make good things happen and to avoid bad things.

Maybe get involved in a parenting group, and trade kid-watching times (....which will be SUPER important to contain max when it's your turn) so you have a chance to get Max appropriate exercise. Or when your husband comes home from work, persuade him to watch your son for a while while you exercise max. (Or get him to do it!). 

These things need to happen. If you are feeling overwhelmed and do not have access to the resources to help you, it might be a good time to sit down and go over what needs to happen for Max to stay in your home with a good quality of life and evaluate if/how/what that is and the changes that will be made. Not all dogs are right for all homes.


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## Maya's Mom (Apr 13, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear about Max biting your son. That is so terrifying! It's wonderful that it didn't seem to traumatize your son. It gives you the opportunity to control the situation so it doesn't happen again now that you know how Max will act in that situation. You are really lucky that your son isn't scared of him, because that would make the situation much more complicated. I think there is the potential here for a very successful outcome as long as you make the commitment to work on it (which it sounds like you are definitely doing). You have an understanding of the problem, the time to work on exercising and training (in short periods several times a day), and advice from professional trainers on the best way to get started. I strongly agree that keeping ALL training positive is essential to improving Max's level of respect for you. You want him to respect and trust you, not fear you. Fear is a recipe for aggression. This doesn't mean that there are not consequences for your dog. I used positive training for Maya, but when she was a baby pup in the nippy stage, when she bit me I would leave the room. She loves to be with me, so lack of interaction from me was definitely an unpleasant consequence for her. So when people talk about positive training, it is by no means an "anything goes" approach. There is a wealth of information in the library, this forum, and online, but I would strongly encourage you to stay away from anything that encourages punishment (alpha-rolls, hitting, causing any level of pain or fear, and other harsh techniques). Research and understanding of dogs has changed significantly in the last 10-20 years, so look for recent, positive resources. I would personally recommend anything by Ian Dunbar or Particia McConnell. 

I could be wrong, as I am fairly new to goldens and dog training too, but I don't think tethering was referring to leashing the dog to you. I think they usually use the term umbilical-cord for leashing the dog to you (and you're right, that would be very difficult if the goal is to keep him away from your son!). I think they meant tethering the dog by leashing him to something in the house. You'll have to get more specifics from someone else, as I haven't used this strategy before. 

Also, I'm not sure how open your house is and how wide your doorways are, but they do make baby gates for wide openings. They may be harder to find on ebay or craigslist, but baby gates are the kind of things many people use for a period of time and then don't need anymore, so it's worth looking for used ones. 

I wish you the best of luck. Please keep asking questions from the many experts who have given you great advice on this thread. If you think something won't work, tell us exactly why and they may be able to think of modifications that will make it work better for your situation. We all want you and Max to be successful. With the right effort, management, and training, in time you will have that perfect family dog that you can trust to be off-leash around kids. Max just needs your help learning how to be that dog. If you manage his behavior now and teach him how to act, he will be able to have much more freedom later. It will take time and effort, but it will definitely pay off in the end!

Good Luck! 




CrystalG said:


> Just for the record....
> 
> #1 - I am NOT making excuses for trying any of these things. Like I stated, there is only one place a gate would work in my home and it's not a big enough space for Max. I'm stating what can work because I'm the one who knows what will work in my house. I don't see tethering working very well either....how am I supposed to chase a toddler around with a dog tied to my waist? Maybe some of you don't understand since you've never had toddlers and a teenage golden. I don't know.
> 
> ...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Just some quick thoughts - 

Gating -- I live in an apartment with a galley style kitchen. I gate there. It's smaller than a standard laundry room, yet works perfectly. The dog doesn't *need* a big space when gated. The idea is that it's simply more room than a crate. 

Tether -- Can be to you, or if that's a pain, to a heavy object (couch, entertainment center, etc.) or the door as RedDogs stated. Or get the base of an outdoor umbrella stand and rig it with a piece of hardware where you can attach the tether. Or drill an eye bolt into a wall stud at floor level where it's not an eyesore.

Open Floor Plan -- Consider an x-pen. It's a portable dog play pen.

Barking -- Yes, he will bark and put up a full when you first start confining him with these different techniques b/c he's used to being able to go wherever he wants. It'll take some time and training, but he'll get used to it. Start making EVERYTHING wonderful happen in those places - meals, KONGS, chew sticks, etc. Play games where you toss a yummy in, he goes and gets it and then comes back out. 

Stimulation -- I'd feed EVERY meal out of some sort of food puzzle to A. make it take longer (giving YOU more quiet time) and B. providing the dog with some mental stimulation which will help take the edge off.

Training -- The best trainers are bossy. You control the access to resources. He has to comply with your requests in order to earn them. You don't have to give the dominance-based stink eye that men figure out pretty quickly! ;-)


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

The baby crib analogy is good and here is another thought. We crated our dogs when we ate until they were over a year old. They had no opportunity to steal food. This way eventually it was just not an option for them.

They have to sit quietly now while we eat. The rule is, if I can feel or hear their breath they have to "go lay down". Yes, it took a long time for them to learn. If I were you I would crate for blocks of time anyway, because I assume you will be looking for another job at some point.

Maybe being home all day is adding to your irritation. Get out and try to enjoy this forced leave. If your toddler is overactive, exercise would probably help him, too.

Sorry about the bites!

Good luck!


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## ButtersPeople (May 11, 2010)

CrystalG said:


> Just for the record....
> 
> #4 - It is hard to get Max's attention in my home since my son may have ADHD (no dx yet) and he is ALWAYS running about and making noise. Some of you will say 'keep your child quiet or tell him not to be loud around Max'. That is easier said than done with a hyperactive 3-year-old.



I'll leave the dog training advice to the experts but ADD is an area I am familiar with. It is unlikely that a definitive diagnosis of ADD can be made in a child under age 7 because impulsive behaviors without thought for consequences is completely natural in toddlers and pre-schoolers. 

I will suggest a few things for you that may help with your child dog interactions as well as curbing some of your son's more impulsive behaviors. 

1. People in the house eat _only _at the table. No more walking around with snacks for anyone and especially no eating in front of the TV

2. When your son is running around making noise he should be directed toward the appropriate space to do so. I forbid it in the kitchen for my children because it is unsafe. (it really would be best to keep this activity away from the dog until the dog listens to you and has learned how to interact with the child _gently_) Redirection works for kids too : Give him another activity that engages his senses. For example-working with playdough _at the table_ provides a variety of stimulus but it is actually calming.

3. A part of the kitchen would be a great place for the dog to have his private space. This should be a place where the children may not interact with him. You have to teach the kids they must leave the dog alone in that space. (It would be a great place for you to practice basic skills like sit, down, stay with the dog. I am thinking, and I could be completely off base, but I am thinking that one of the reasons the dog doesn't obey you is chaos has given him a reason not to. If the house is chaotic and you are giving commands that you cannot follow through on because of it he has learned that your words are meaningless- especially when the child is mobile and/or noisy- which is also very stimulating to the dog)

4. Never ever hit the dog. Not only because it is bad for the dog, but your little guy is going to model his interactions with the dog after yours. Very dangerous scenario there. Not only with your own dog but with any dog your son interacts with!

hth


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## e.c.mama (May 17, 2008)

_"I'm frustrated with the situation because I wanted a dog that I didn't have to gate or leash in my home. That is no life for a dog IMO. Plus Max always has to be under our feet so I'm not sure this would work for him I want Max to be a family pet. To be able to be with us wherever we are in the house without being caged or tied up."

_I understand where you're coming from, but my opinion is that it's OK for people to give their pets boundaries in their homes, just like they have rules for their kids. It's for the safety and well-being for all involved, and you are not "mean" for having rules and then following through with them.
Good luck with whatever you are doing in this situation...it's a tough one.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*I've been having issues with Max being a 'food grabber' and counter/table surfer. I've been trying for a LONG time to stop this behavior without any real success.*

You *have* to be able to stop him from practicing. The more he practices this, the better he gets at it! Using training, while WONDERFUL, takes a long time. In the meantime, you have to be able to use management.

I know many of the management suggestions we've made aren't the easiest but they've all proven to be extremely beneficial over countless of dogs in countless of busy households.

I'm not trying to be rude here - BUT - if someone told you the next time your dog managed to steal food off the table, he'd SPONTANEOUSLY BURST INTO FLAMES AND DIE, you'd find a way to manage his behavior! ;-) (HUG!) Really, I'm not trying to be an a$$... but I do know that sometimes it's easier to complain about a technique not working than it is to buckle down and endure the inconvenience of actually using the technique.

Training is simple, but it's not easy!

Hang in there!


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Perhaps, some one on one training, with just you, and your golden, no child, husband, is needed, and some fun, with you and he. I would keep your child, with food, seperate, from your golden, until your golden learns.


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

I am so sorry you are going through this, I'm glad your son is ok. I really don't think Max meant in any way to harm him.

You have been given great advice from the pros here, and I will not add to that...but I do want you to know I raised 3 dogs with two toddlers. My kids learned quickly if they did not eat at the table, their food was fair game LOL. Should it be that way, well no probably not, but that is the way it was. Thankfully my dogs were gentle about it but there were many a time I had a little one walking around with a cookie in their mouth only to have it gently swiped by a hungry pup. 

My youngest son had an aversion to sitting in his high chair, he wanted to eat walking around - he lost many cheeseburgers, and chicken nuggets that way. When my kids did sit in their high chairs or at the table there was always a captive audience of dogs right underneath them waiting for something to drop, or for the chance to clean off the high chair tray when done LOL. 

Any retriever I have ever known was a chow hound, they can't help it they love food!


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I'll admit to skipping a page or two in this thread so I apologize if any of this has already been said.

First, so sorry your son got bit but congrats to your son that he's such a tough guy!

Second, it seems like there is a huge lack of respect from your dog. That's why he doesn't to listen to you and only listens to your husband. So when it's just you in the house, your dog doesn't see anything wrong with taking food from your son. In fact, he's probably wondering WHY your son has food and he doesn't.

I can see the similarity between the lack of respect Ranger had for me and what's going on with your dog...I have been there and done that! For the first two weeks, Ranger listened better to my male co-workers than he did to me! 

The best thing to do to gain the respect of your dog? Umbilical cord him to you. At least two hours a day; you're lucky you work from home so you can do it for longer. If crates, gates, etc don't work, slap a martingale collar on him, leash him and then make a loop and loop it around your waist. Now ignore him completely. No talking to him, no looking at him especially no eye contact, no touching him. (This is hard, I know). This way you have complete control over him and now, he has to focus on YOU and what you are doing. He wants to go to the kitchen? Tough, you're going to the living room. He wants to go look at the window? Too bad, you're going to fold laundry. Do your chores with him umbilicaled to you. The slight correction he'll get from the martingale if he ignores you while you walk away will remind him to pay attention to you at all times. Otherwise, whoops, he gets a correction. 

You can also do this with food around so he learns that just because food is out, doesn't mean it's automatically his. After you've umbilicaled him for a few days, do it in the kitchen while you're making lunch (maybe keep your son away though for safety's sake). He'll start to realize that food happens but it's not always his. (I had to umbilical Ranger and work around the front door so he realized just because the door is open, doesn't mean he gets to ignore me and run out it) - same principles apply to your situation.

Umbilical cording is a great exercise - there are so many good things about it. He's attached to you at all times so you're in control over his behaviour at all times, he can't get to your son unless you yourself are there, you're not giving him a chance to ignore you because he will self-correct if he does (which is why a martingale is better than a flat collar for this exercise) so he starts to realize he CAN'T ignore you which will build up the respect he has for you. Soon, he'll start listening to you without the umbilical for two reasons 1) You've built respect 2) it's become habit. It's a win-win situation. Not to mention that this exercise is easy for people (besides the no talk, no touch, no eye contact which is hard to do at first since we humanize dogs so much) but it's REALLY mentally exhausting for dogs. They have to pay attention to you ALL the time which tires them out. So at the end of the day, you'll also have a TIRED golden retriever! Yay! 

I really hope you give this a try. Like I said, I've been there and done that with Ranger. I really had to work to get his respect - I umbilicaled him for at least 4 hours a day for a month. The improvement was HUGE. I still do it when it's rainy outside and we can't walk since it tires him out so much. In fact, I did it yesterday because of my gimpy ankle and his attitude today towards me is already so much more attentive.

Martingale collar, 6 ft leash looped around your waist. No touching, no talking, no looking while you go about your daily routine - inside and outside. He gets out of your way, not the other way around. If you have to correct, NO WORDS, just a tug on the leash. Give it a shot!


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Ranger said:


> I'll admit to skipping a page or two in this thread so I apologize if any of this has already been said.
> 
> First, so sorry your son got bit but congrats to your son that he's such a tough guy!
> 
> ...


This is fantastic advice and I really enjoyed reading it. In fact, you have persuaded me to tether Vito to me every now and again. 

However, the OP said that tethering to the waist will not work for her while she is chasing around her little one. Some others have suggested tethering to a solid object, which is also great advice.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Oh, I totally missed that...whoops! Serves me right! I'll go find back and find that...I'm curious as to why it won't work (I don't have kids so I'm clueless!)

Okay found it - CrystalG, can you please explain why the umbilical cording doesn't work while chasing your toddler? I'm not being difficult or anything, just curious. As stated above, I'm clueless about kids. Does Max get too excited? Bump into you? See your son as an object of excitement because you're chasing after him? 

I think it'd be easier to teach a dog to be calm than to try to get your toddler to always be quiet...especially if there's suspected ADD. Why not try to umbilical Max to you when your son's down for a nap or when your husband is home so he can chase after your son while you do the umbilical cording? So your son takes off, your husband can go get him and if Max gets excited, you turn the other way and start moving so Max has to focus on YOU which is redirecting his attention from the object of excitement (your son). That way you can start teaching Max that just because your son is excited and running around, Max shouldn't be. 

That's why I like umbilical cording more than gates/crates, even if they would work in your situation (but they don't and I realize that). Gates/crates seem more like "management", like the dog has to stay in there and can be crazy in that area while you deal with your son. The umbilical cording teaches/train your dog how to behave while all the "craziness" is going on, instead of removing him from the situation and therefore, not having to deal with it (properly or improperly). Maybe the management situation would be a possibility/short term solution if you could go to obedience classes but since that's not an option either, I'd really try the umbilical cording.

Maybe don't jump into right away - ie umbilical cording him to you and then chasing your son right away. Try it in small doses - I'm assuming your son still naps (again - clueless) so try it when you have some peace and quiet. Even if you're planning on laying on the couch while your son naps - umbilical cord Max to you. I do it all the time when I'm watching tv! That's the beauty of it - it works even while you do NOTHING. Then do it again when your husband is home. Do it after your son has gone to bed so Max starts to understand how to behave and this new process. After awhile, try it when your son is awake. If Max bumps into you, gets ahead of you while you're going to your son, a tug on the leash to get his attention back to you. If he jumps up at you in excitement, a pop downwards on the leash is your correction. Quick and easy.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

Well, you've gotten some really great advice in this thread! Last year my Bailey has bitten and 3 times. Broke the skin once on a finger. It was even to the point where I had to seperate Bailey and the kids for a few months. I did this by putting her in her crate. She uses her crate as a safty area and loves being in there. Bailey was going after and snapping at the kids in a bratty way too. It was really bad. I had to call in a behaviorist though. Bailey has fear aggression too. I don't have a lot of money either and I'm disabled with a spine injury and we still scraped up for a behaviorist. You are going to have to work with your dog and asap! Especially with the NILIF method and feed by hand! Make sure your dog isn't on the furniture ever and your dog is the last one to walk out the door. I make both my girls walk behind or beside us at all times. Bailey was a horrible food grabber too. Once Bailey learned the rules she no longer grabs food off our plates or the table and out of our hands. Obedience train your dog at home, this is a must. Do it with positive reinforcement. You have to take action right away. Don't give up either! It takes a lot of time and effort. I know you can do it! I do wish you the best of luck. I spend at least 10-15 minutes about 5 days a week training my pups and I even find fun and creative ways to train the girls.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Oh gosh - you've gotten a boat load of helpful information. You do NOT need a lot of money to train a dog - you don't need any money in fact! Just time and patience. I would advise getting 2 baby gates that can be moved around the house to where and when you need them. I'm kind of surprised you haven't done that already with a 3 year old. My youngest was 5 when we got Griff and the baby gate went up in front of his room and didn't come down for 2 years! Griff can come and go in his room any time now and he doesn't steal or chew his toys or anything else.  

The key is to not let anything bad become a habit. We all make mistakes and we learn from them. 

Teaching him the basics - sit, down, wait, OK and come will get you off to your best start. Give him NOTHING unless he does something you ask him first. Do look up NILIF training - your pupper needs to learn that you are the boss and this is a non-violent way of teaching him.

Do not trust him around children with food - gate him or crate him away until he can be trusted. You will know when but be patient - it may be another year or more away. 

Children can help with the training too but you must be super vigilant about supervising. I didn't trust Griff around my youngest until he was pretty close to 3 unsupervised. Even now I peek and don't leave them totally alone. 

My youngest helped train Griff when he was only 5 - here is a short video of him training sit, down, wait, come, sit and down again. Sorry it is dark - there is no sound either. Different camera at the time.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v480/afullmoon/?action=view&current=IM000421.flv


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> My youngest helped train Griff when he was only 5 - here is a short video of him training sit, down, wait, come, sit and down again. Sorry it is dark - there is no sound either. Different camera at the time.
> 
> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v480/afullmoon/?action=view&current=IM000421.flv


Cute!! Looks like you have a future dog trainer on your hands.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

*You can do this....*

ChrystalG, I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. I am pulling for you and obviously so are a lot of other folks here. I am a stay at home mom with 3 girls. My youngest (who I adore) is 3 1/2 years old and is extremely difficult. My puppy, duncan, is 6 months old now and a complete mamma's boy. He went through the beginnings of the bratty stage very early and is improving, but if you search my posts you will see many where I have struggled. 

I went thru the table surfing and him growling at the kids over 'high value items". It got my attention big time and we worked harder on obedience training, instituted NILIF and I'm so pleased with the results. Now my 3 year old can put Duncan in a sit/stay and dish up his food, walk across the kitchen with it and then release him (while I watch) with no problems. I still cannot make her remember not to hug him, but I keep drilling it into her will continue to do my best.

Our house is open, I have borrowed a big gate from a neighbor and use the no-hand gates in other two doorways. I have him confined to the kitchen at all times because I simply cannot do things and keep an eye on him upstairs. He loves to eat socks, tissues, dryer sheets, and my kids' small toys. His favorite object to destroy is shoes. I figure he'll be confined for at least another year. I am like you and wish he had full run of the house. It's just not practical. Everytime I slack off, he destroys another pair of flip flops while my back is turned. I think we've lost at least 8 pairs of shoes since he arrived here the first week of January. I have a crate upstairs and a crate downstairs. 

I agree with previous posters.... my #1 rule for my kids is you wanna eat, you sit at the table. NO WALKING AROUND WITH FOOD. It's just too risky.

You're under a lot of stress - I'm so sorry for the money worries. Adding a loud pre-schooler and an unruly dog to the mix sure doesn't help. Get a night or two of really good sleep and take charge - make a plan. You can do this!


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

CrystalG said:


> Just for the record....
> 
> #1 - I am NOT making excuses for trying any of these things. Like I stated, there is only one place a gate would work in my home and it's not a big enough space for Max. I'm stating what can work because I'm the one who knows what will work in my house. I don't see tethering working very well either....how am I supposed to chase a toddler around with a dog tied to my waist? Maybe some of you don't understand since you've never had toddlers and a teenage golden. I don't know.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not going to pretend that I don't get that some of this is post is for my benefit. 

1. Being that my son is nine, I have no idea what having a toddler is like or at the least, it's all gone foggy it was so long ago. I am assuming there are times however in your day where you could tether Max to you - unless you are up and chasing your son every minute of the day and night until you go to bed. We both know that is not true and if you wanted to, you could find some time to try it out - like when your child is in bed, or taking a nap, or sitting on the couch watching Backyardigans and you're in the kitchen doing dishes. I know that trying this at home (and I still do it from time to time) did help my boy stop and wait whenever I stopped and in the house, he understand the limit of how far he can go so I can't say it hurt at all - I think in fact, it was helpful. I did not however have him tethered to me all the time, just when it was convenient for me. Others have found it helpful or you wouldn't be getting that advice. What does it really hurt to give it the old college try as what you are doing now isn't working? I think that's the attitude that will get you far rather than as I stated before just saying, that won't work. Maybe it won't help but maybe it will. You don't know until you try.
Lastly, is the space behind the baby gate big enough to turn around in? Big enough to lay down in? I am thinking the space must not be the size of a box? This is like the, "that's no kind of life for a dog" thinking you have going on- which is very sweet and well intentioned don't get me wrong but the space doesn't need to be the Taj Mahal. He isn't going to feel cheated because his room isn't as big as yours. My puppy stayed in the wash room which is fairly small when he was super little and even as he grew. It was much smaller than what Willow spent her days in. But it was safe and to this day, he loves napping in his room. And it's not like he's going to be spending hours upon hours there. When baby has food, Max goes to his little room and maybe gets a bone or a toy or whatever - Max is not going to be stealing food endangering your child.

2. As a person reading these posts, whoa, I didn't get the whole dog beater vibe at all. Did I miss something? The thing I and others I've seen posting on is how to get your relationship with your dog on track, for you to understand more about what you should really expect from a nine month old and ways to modify his behavior so everyone is coexisting happily.

3. Didn't think you thought any differently but you can't have Max stealing food from a toddler and you can't expect a 9 month old who sees himself at least as a equal to your little guy to not steal his food when it looks that good to him. Max is a dog and thinks like a dog. I think it would help if you learned to think more like a dog and understand doggyness. I have been learning more and more about that and knowing stuff like that can really help you modify his behavior, understand his behavior and what he will likely do in a situation, and modify your behavior to get him to do/act like you want him to and understand when you are doing something that could end badly and stop before you do it.

4. My child is older but is a special case on his own. He doesn't really get body language or when he's being too rough on the things around him. That can spell trouble for the dog/human relationship. Puppyhood has been twice as hard as not only am I trying to train a dog to act appropriately, but the dog is also getting treated unappropriately at times (my son will get into Max's space, be too rough sometimes, and be super loud) so he is not respecting my son as someone higher up in the pack and my son is not helping things at all. It has taken a much longer time than for other kids and puppies but finally Max respects the boy even though Leif sometimes acts more like a puppy than someone higher up. Even with that, I monitor their interactions (for Max's sake - with my older dog, for Leif's sake) and I am always aware. Being aware of a dogs mentality and thinking is super important - for example, if you knew why it's not good to have your toddler toting food around your puppy, you could have avioded the situation by, I don't know, putting your puppy in a gated area or something.

I can see that you love Max very much but I think a good amount of your problem is that you are treating him like a person, giving him the same boundaries and lodgings and rights as you would a person. That just isn't going to work out for you. There is nothing wrong by treating a dog like a dog because when you have the right understanding and expectations, it's better for a dog to be treated like a dog - they understand your expectations. That doesn't mean beat him, tie him outside all the time, don't appreciate him for the wonderful and meaningful family member he is. It just means don't speak English to a Chinaman and expect him to understand what you are saying. Better to learn a bit of Chinese to get your point across.


And by the by, just to say, my boy isn't a horror or anything. He is not abusing the dogs - he's just over the top at times and that's his nature.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

momtoMax said:


> 2. As a person reading these posts, whoa, I didn't get the whole dog beater vibe at all. Did I miss something?


I think she was responding to something I said on that one. She said she swatted the dog, and then she said her husband was super angry when he got home. I just wanted to cover all the bases in case spanking the dog was part of their response to problems.

For the record, I didn't think that her husband beat the dog or anything. I just thought it was super important to be 100% clear that striking a dog is an ineffective means of modifying his behavior and could easily result in unintended consequences.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I won't add to all the great advice you have received but wanted you to know that I had golden puppies with toddlers and my daughters both had golden puppies when their kids were toddlers.
It takes work, commitment and patience but definitely is worth the rewards you get later when you have a well behaved loyal dog and children who respect and love their dog.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

*Okay found it - CrystalG, can you please explain why the umbilical cording doesn't work while chasing your toddler? I'm not being difficult or anything, just curious. As stated above, I'm clueless about kids. Does Max get too excited? Bump into you? See your son as an object of excitement because you're chasing after him? *

All of the above...


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

My son IS actually on the go ALL day. He doesn't sit down to watch TV or movies, he doesn't even sit down long enough to eat. He never stops even at night. He gets up between 3-5 times per night, sometimes more than that. He literally can't shut his mind off to go to sleep. So, yes I am chasing him around all the time. This is also the reasoning for his pediatrician suspecting ADHD. His attention span is not very good and he is definately hyperactive. Not many impulisivity issues. Just the first 2 mentioned. Our first plan of action was Zantac (because he had acid reflux as a baby and the dr thinks this is keeping him up at night which is causing the problems in the day) for 2 weeks (didn't work) now we are on second plan, Prevacid. Which has only begun. This is only adding to my frustration! GRR

I used Max's crate today when food was present and it worked well. However, when I let him out he came out running in search of what treasures he might have missed LOL! I went to the bookstore and bought a training book too(which I couldn't afford....oh well, it is needed). I even bought a clicker at the petstore that came with a little training booklet for basic commands. It was only $5 so not a big expense. Max does know the basics like Sit, Stay, Come, Off....just not with me giving them. SO if all else fails I will try the clicker training. The videos on Youtube that RedDogs suggested were excellent! Lots of training vids. I am going to try the suggestions from this post first though. Thanks to ALL of you...really


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I think she was responding to something I said on that one. She said she swatted the dog, and then she said her husband was super angry when he got home. I just wanted to cover all the bases in case spanking the dog was part of their response to problems.
> 
> For the record, I didn't think that her husband beat the dog or anything. I just thought it was super important to be 100% clear that striking a dog is an ineffective means of modifying his behavior and could easily result in unintended consequences.


 
Okay, I just didn't want you or anyone else thinking that we were beating Max:. It's strange with my husband actually because he did absolutely NO training with Max....nothing at all. I don't understand why he isn't having a problem like I am.


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

CrystalG said:


> It's strange with my husband actually because he did absolutely NO training with Max....nothing at all. I don't understand why he isn't having a problem like I am.


OK that struck me...I am no expert but my mom had this same problem with her border collie. She went through two obedience classes with him, and a few sessions with a behaviorist. Could it be your voice? My mom has a very sweet, quiet, mousy voice. She was told by both trainers and behaviorist that she needed to make her voice lower, more gruff and forceful, if that makes any sense.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Dreammom said:


> OK that struck me...I am no expert but my mom had this same problem with her border collie. She went through two obedience classes with him, and a few sessions with a behaviorist. Could it be your voice? My mom has a very sweet, quiet, mousy voice. She was told by both trainers and behaviorist that she needed to make her voice lower, more gruff and forceful, if that makes any sense.


It does make sense. I've tried doing these things with my voice as well. Did it work for your mom?


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

Some times it does help, but she tries to overcompensate at times and I swear the dog laughs at her LOL. I think you have to find that balance...firm, but not too firm, a bit lower, but not too low. Your voice just may not mean business to him, ya know? Your hubby probably has a deeper voice, and Max knows he means it.

Best of luck to you... I know you can do this and Max will grow up to be a great dog!


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

LOL I've tried an awful lot of different tones and types. I'm sure Max is laughing at me too. I know the kids have a couple of times!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CrystalG said:


> Okay, I just didn't want you or anyone else thinking that we were beating Max:. It's strange with my husband actually because he did absolutely NO training with Max....nothing at all. I don't understand why he isn't having a problem like I am.


This is where a certified trainer can be really helpful. It's probably not just a tone of voice thing (though tone is important). There's probably a way in which your husband is communicating clearly that you aren't. I mentioned the repeating thing earlier as a common mistake.

Another common error is not making commands identical each time. If you say "Max, please sit honey" one time and "Max, c'mon, sit for me" the next time, etc., the dog can be confused. Commands need to be completely identical so the dog can learn to understand them in multiple contexts.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> This is where a certified trainer can be really helpful. It's probably not just a tone of voice thing (though tone is important). There's probably a way in which your husband is communicating clearly that you aren't. I mentioned the repeating thing earlier as a common mistake.
> 
> Another common error is not making commands identical each time. If you say "Max, please sit honey" one time and "Max, c'mon, sit for me" the next time, etc., the dog can be confused. Commands need to be completely identical so the dog can learn to understand them in multiple contexts.


I wish I could afford a certified trainer but as mentioned I don't have the $$$ for that since I was laid off.

I agree with the clear communication part. My husband only has to say a command once, if that and Max listens. I on the other hand HAVE been repeating myself since he hasn't been listening. I do correct him but I still find myself repeating A LOT. More work on this is obviously needed. I do keep the commands the same each time. 

I'm still boggled by why my husband doesn't have this problem. He's done NO training ever with Max. Any thoughts on this?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

CrystalG said:


> I wish I could afford a certified trainer but as mentioned I don't have the $$$ for that since I was laid off.
> 
> I agree with the clear communication part. My husband only has to say a command once, if that and Max listens. I on the other hand HAVE been repeating myself since he hasn't been listening. I do correct him but I still find myself repeating A LOT. More work on this is obviously needed. I do keep the commands the same each time.
> 
> I'm still boggled by why my husband doesn't have this problem. He's done NO training ever with Max. Any thoughts on this?


As an example, I think there are a number of reasons why I can usually walk up to a client who is struggling to get the dog to do something and have pretty quick success:

* I'm super clear as to what I want.

* I'm confident in my presentation of what I'm asking for.

* I don't give up if it's not working. I'll stick around until I get the behavior, even if that means I have to walk the dog to a slightly calmer area in the classroom to help the dog be successful.

* I'm somewhat of a novel stimulus since the dog isn't with me all the time.

* If it's a dog who knows me, the dog has a pretty good reinforcement history - he knows that keeping me happy earns him something good.

With your husband, he probably gets significant mileage out of being dominant-sounding (most men do!) and since he's not home all day, he's somewhat novel compared to you. Plus, most male egos don't do well with a dog not complying, so it's likely that if your husband has asked the dog to do something and the dog didn't, he (husband) stepped in and made sure it happened. Easier for him than you b/c when it happens to you, you also have your son to deal with at the same time!

When I work a dog, I sound sure of my myself and maybe a little bossy. IMO, you want to aim for confidence, not dominance. And it's hard to fake either b/c the dogs know! But if you're able to start using some management techniques, you'll see his behavior improve, which will raise your confidence and you'll get a great new cycle going!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

CrystalG said:


> I wish I could afford a certified trainer but as mentioned I don't have the $$$ for that since I was laid off.


Are there any group classes near by? Even a Park & Rec class? We have those here in Los Angeles for around $65 -- waaaay cheaper than a private trainer. Your peace of mind is worth the $65!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Is it possible for you and Max to spend some time alone together in a place where there are no distractions? I think that is the only way you are going to get him to start listening to you. Go back to the very beginning and teach a sit and stay. Work for say ten minutes a day on just the sit and stay. At first ask him to stay for two seconds while you are feeding him treats, gradually, very gradually increase the time and reduce the treats, but only when you are sure he will be successful with the increased time and reduced treats. make sure he is always successful in what you are asking of him. Get him to a point where he can do a sit-stay for a minutes with no treats then start adding distractions, once again, very gradually. Up the treats and decrease the time when you add distractions, set him up to be successful. If he breaks his stay, it is your fault for going to fast.

Training like this will increase your confidence, increase Max's self-control, improve your relationship with Max and result in a dog that can do a wonderful sit-stay, which you can use to settle Max down in the middle of the chaos.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Are there any group classes near by? Even a Park & Rec class? We have those here in Los Angeles for around $65 -- waaaay cheaper than a private trainer. Your peace of mind is worth the $65!


The group lessons I checked out that were available were from $100-$150 and that is more than I can shell out right now:no:. I'm very hopeful though with the advice you all have given me that Max will eventually come around and be the dog that I was so nieve to think would come out of a box.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

When I crate Max at meal/snacktimes should I be doing anything other than putting him in there with his favorite toy/treat? Anything special I should do after letting him out since he is on the hunt for leftovers immediately after getting released?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Putting him in with a toy or treat is fine. He can do what he wants once he is in there, except annoy you. If he carries on you can put a blanket over his crate, that usually settles them down if need be. 

I would just make sure when you take him out he is quiet, sitting, and you can open the door without him bolting out. Make him wait for your "ok". As far as scavenging for morsels... that will happen either then or if you take him and do something immediately after you take him out, he will scavenge later. As long as you are not still "at the table" or in the kitchen when he is doing it, I wouldn't worry too much. They are dogs. 

Ann


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> Putting him in with a toy or treat is fine. He can do what he wants once he is in there, except annoy you. If he carries on you can put a blanket over his crate, that usually settles them down if need be.
> 
> I would just make sure when you take him out he is quiet, sitting, and you can open the door without him bolting out. Make him wait for your "ok". As far as scavenging for morsels... that will happen either then or if you take him and do something immediately after you take him out, he will scavenge later. As long as you are not still "at the table" or in the kitchen when he is doing it, I wouldn't worry too much. They are dogs.
> 
> Ann


Thanks Ann


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

CrystalG said:


> When I crate Max at meal/snacktimes should I be doing anything other than putting him in there with his favorite toy/treat? Anything special I should do after letting him out since he is on the hunt for leftovers immediately after getting released?


Easier than running the vacuum! It sounds like he is going to catch on very quickly.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Don't repeat yourself. Use something your doggy really loves during your short training sessions, like cut up hot dog. First, if you haven't, teach him to focus on you. You stand, tell him to sit and look into his eyes. Every time he makes eye contact with you, treat him. Do this for a few minutes several times a day so that he learns to focus on you. Secondly and super importantly, don't repeat yourself. Your puppy heard you the first time. In training sessions when you tell him to do something once, wait for him to do the behavior you asked for. If he wants the treat, then eventually, he'll listen. You may need to wait a minute at times until he figures out to be quicker about it. If he's like my Max, he'll go through his tricks one at a time just to amuse himself until he does the right one. Also, think of a word you can use to let your dog know that the training session is over, like done or that's all.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks I'll give that a try.


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## CrystalG (Aug 12, 2009)

Abbydabbydo said:


> Easier than running the vacuum! It sounds like he is going to catch on very quickly.


LOL, that is true! Now if I could only get him to lick up the fur too.....:


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I take back the cut up hot dog bit. See my main forum thread about Max's tummy ache. I am changing to something more friendly to his belly!!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

momtoMax said:


> I take back the cut up hot dog bit. See my main forum thread about Max's tummy ache. I am changing to something more friendly to his belly!!


While we should always be careful about what we feed our dogs, I don't think the hot dogs themselves were as much a problem for Max as the amount. If I remember from your thread, you pretty much went through a full package in a day. Don't beat yourself up about it... the good news is, he was a REALLY good dog that day! LOL! And we've all overdone it at one time or another with something.

A good quality, low-or-no sodium hotdog (turkey dog, chicken dog, whatever) isn't a bad thing in moderation. Jersey loves them, and we use them in obedience class.... but his primary reward for our training throughout the day is play. 

Julie and Jersey


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