# Remote Collar Method



## PaisleyH

Hello All,
We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading alot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc. 
I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing. 

the theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...

Audible beep: associate this with "come". if she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us

Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior

Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can acorss the field, chasing a squirl toward a street, etc.

Continuous: i dont want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.

The aspect i like is that the dog associates the behviour with an immediate correction. If the dog is 100 yards away and starts sniffing around a picnic basket or eating someones sandwhich, me running 100 yards saying "Paisley NO" i feel is not going to be productive and she will not associate that action directly with my running and saying no....it would be more a miscue of fun. Oh look Matt is running at me waving his arms...time to play...and the whole misbehaviour of checking out a sandwhich will be missed.

So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.

Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training

M&R
Paisley's Parents


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## sterregold

A collar can be a very valuable tool. Be warned that you will get some strong anti-collar reactions, so be prepared for that (both in public and in parts of this forum). I personally find it very useful in off-lead situations, and I do use mine for training for advanced fieldwork and hunting skills. I pretty much never use the tone function on mine, and my Tritronics does not have a vibrate feature. I have a Tritronics Pro 100 which has both momentary and continuous capabilities, and mostly leave it on continuous but deliver a momentary by just tapping the button. There are times I will use continuous on a longer stimulation, but tend to do that at a lower intensity. It is very situational.

In a field context we use the collar to reinforce known commands--which means you still have to teach all of the obedience skills to a fairly high competancy. There are a couple of approaches to the use of the collar among field people. Some follow the Bill Hillman method where it is introduced prior to the start of formal basics (3-4 months old, and forward), and others collar condition after hold and FF work are done (after about 6 months old). There are obedience trainers who use it for obedience work as well, but I am not as familiar with how they use it. Best advice I can give is to not try to collar condition your first dog on your own. Find a mentor who has done collar work before and whose dogs react to the collar in a happy way--the dogs should not be cowering if if CC has been done properly.

Bill Hillman does have a puppy training video that is very good, but again, *in person mentorship is the best for learning fair and effective use of this tool*. It is not really something you can learn by watching a video, or having someone lay out a sries of steps online, because you can not really be certain that the timing and reactions they are describing are what you are seeing to know if you are doing it right. 

There are a number of brands now on the market--do not waste your money on the cheap ones--they are not very reliable. Tritronics and Dogtra are pretty much the industry standard for a reason. They are about the only brands you will find pro trainers and serious amateur trainers using.


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## Capt Jack

The beep is very helpfull for me as I also have a petsafe fence.But you'll get some negative comments from some folks on here that are professionals & I've learned pulse or shock dosen't do well & I only use it if my dogs is in danger I can't avoid otherwise.Prehaps a whistle if you don't want to shout.


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## lhowemt

I use an ecollar on Lila, but only because I am unable to interrupt her brain when it comes into contact with deer, and off she goes. Most of what you are talking about is basic obedience, and IMO you are doing yourself and the dog a disservice for using an ecollar for basic obedience. Considering using it on a puppy sounds terrible to me. I recommend drop the idea until you've exhausted traditional training techniques. If you aren't going to be doing hunting/trials, I don't see any reason to start young. Give the pup a chance, and yourself to learn how to train in a bonding manner, not punitive. There are so many techniques that work well, with effort and patience. Heck, Lushie Plushie just posted a blog on a recall work, and I used some of it today on Pearl who is 11 weeks old. If you have to scream at your dog regularly, you need some training work. Whistling and clapping are good recall signals too, and sound better than yelling. Good luck.

FWIW I rarely ever need to stimulate Lila, the beep has taken on the meaning of COME NOW! She whirls around and comes running. Unless she has already started onto deer, then I do use a momentary stimulation, and sometimes raise it before she will even respond. This happens maybe twice a year. She had gotten to the point where I couldn't walk off leash, which meant we didn't go for walks. Long lines, yeah right. The ecollar gave us our life together back.


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## K9-Design

Matt I have to laugh, you must be an engineer. You've got this thought out to a "T" 
If only dog training were that easy....

Just FYI - the beep or vibrate function (which only comes on pet training collars, not professional field training collars...which should tell you something (it's for selling to owners, not dogs))....anyways the beep or vibrate will mean absolutely nothing to your dog unless it is backed up with an actual nick from the collar if they ignore it. I would RATHER use my voice and have the dog actually respond and respect my commands on the first time than relying on a monotone, random beep from the sky.

I also exclusively use the continuous vs. momentary function on my ecollar, but not by just holding it down until the dog complies. Rather I tap it for a "nick" which I find to produce a much more stable and reliable response than the momentary nick.

Anyways, good for you for doing your homework first. Best of luck...


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## mylissyk

You have a lot more research to do on e-collars. Please find a professional who actually knows how to properly, and fairly, use the collar to teach you how to use correctly.


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## Ljilly28

I am an outdoorsy person too, so I completely understand why you need a great recall and control from 100 feet away. I have four adult dogs with snappy stylish recalls off leash, all trained with reward based methods. The forum and other sources are rich with information on how to train a reliable recall without using pain/punishment/intimidation to get a great result. As a dog trainer with 38 STAR Puppies enrolled this session alone, it is fun to see the pups learn how to learn, and become focused on their owners. This is a skill set, more than a tool to be purchased. 

Even many excellent trainers who do use aversives and consider themselves balanced or traditional trainers would not advocate starting a new baby puppy off with an e collar before learning basics and being well socialized. 

There is much to be gained and lost in terms of the bond between you and your new puppy, and between the puppy and his/her view of the world in those first precious weeks, no matter what tools and methods you use.

Here is a great course to take online even if you do not plan to compete in anything but just want a great dog outdoors: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/in...enzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/24

Here is an interview with Dr. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts University. He wrote a good puppy book called Puppy's First Steps along with the : Dr. Nicholas Dodman on Dog Behavior and New Training Techniques | The Bark. 

Before deciding an e collar, try reading Ian Dunbar, The Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell, Control Unleashed the Puppy Program, and watching Crate Games by Susan Garrett.


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## EvanG

PaisleyH said:


> Hello All,
> We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading a lot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc.
> I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing.


You are wise to begin right now to learn and to study about the e-collar, and the methods designed for its use. Far too many trainers arrive late in the process, and jump ahead in the learning curve – finding later on they have holes to fill in their training program. For about the first four months the e-collar should have no place in your training, other than to be worn (inactivated) during training when your pup is of adequate size and musculature to do so unhampered by its mass.


PaisleyH said:


> The theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...
> 
> Audible beep: associate this with "come". If she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us


Fortunately, you do not have to re-invent the wheel for e-collar use. That man who pioneered a system for e-collar use in training retrievers was the late Hall of Fame trainer, Rex Carr from Escalon, California. Virtually all the best modern programs are based in the Carr method. They are successful not only because they are centered on incorporating the e-collar into broad usage, but because he wisely engineered a sequential development of core skills that has made it far easier for young dogs to learn and develop. My program is based in these principles.

1.	The audible beep: Let me clear the air about such things as beeps, buzzes, et al. They are limited in effectiveness and scope of practice in comparison to actual training. If you want a truly well trained dog that will be reliable in any circumstance, or at any practical distance, you would be better served to follow a proven training cycle, and rely on training rather than what Rex called “marketing gimmicks”. 


PaisleyH said:


> Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior


2.	Come (or “here”) is a command. For applications in distances or circumstances where a verbal command may not be heard reliably a simple dog whistle is the tool of choice. 2 or more toots for “Here”, 1 toot for “Sit”. Refusal of those commands is a simple ‘nick’, or momentary stimulus from the e-collar. These command supports are conditioned through a training phase called e-collar conditioning. Your education has begun!


PaisleyH said:


> Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can across the field, chasing a squirrel toward a street, etc.


3.	To stop undesirable behavior the command is “No”. ‘No’ does not give a dog job. It tells the dog one thing; stop doing that – whatever it may be. Please don’t rely on your dog becoming an interpreter of gimmicks to understand what you want. Train him, and again, condition him so that you can support this known command with your e-collar.


PaisleyH said:


> Continuous: I don’t want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.


4.	Continuous: Once your dog is fully e-collar conditioned, and has finished Basics, you’ll rarely if ever have need for continuous stimulation. But don’t kid yourself; for an e-collar to be the great and useful tool it is requires a course of conditioning. Be fair in your training. This is information he will need.


PaisleyH said:


> The aspect I like is that the dog associates the behavior with an immediate correction.


That, and the fact that distance between dog and trainer is not an issue, are the key benefits of the modern e-collar. But you will need to learn about the tool, and the training designed for its use in order to position yourself to enjoy its benefits. 

Often, the newer trainer mistakenly regards actual electrical stimulus as automatically cruel or repressive to dogs. I understand. I love them too. But such perceptions are not axiomatic. A properly trained and conditioned retriever is a happy, stable, and reliable working dog. 

E-collar stimulus is a form of pressure, and can be applied as an element of force. What many people have trouble initially understanding is that the definitions of “pressure” and “force” do not imply an amount. How much pressure or force are needed to effectively change behavior is determined by the dog, not the training program. Yes, the reason we use pressure and/or force in dog training is simply to change behavior. We use the modern e-collar because it is the most effective tool to assure those changes occur, both instantly and at any practical distance up to a mile away!


PaisleyH said:


> So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.
> 
> Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training
> 
> M&R
> Paisley's Parents


As a trainer of over 35 years I admonish you to divorce yourself from any program that would place your dog on a developmental schedule. A proven program will provide a flow chart for development that will help you keep the development of your dog flowing sequentially and logically, so you should know at all times how to guide your daily training to keep pace with your dog’s needs. That is the basis of the Smartwork program.






Let me know anytime I can be of help.

EvanG


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## Swampcollie

PaisleyH said:


> Hello All,
> We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading alot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc.
> I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing.
> 
> the theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...
> 
> Audible beep: associate this with "come". if she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us
> 
> Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior
> 
> Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can acorss the field, chasing a squirl toward a street, etc.
> 
> Continuous: i dont want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.
> 
> The aspect i like is that the dog associates the behviour with an immediate correction. If the dog is 100 yards away and starts sniffing around a picnic basket or eating someones sandwhich, me running 100 yards saying "Paisley NO" i feel is not going to be productive and she will not associate that action directly with my running and saying no....it would be more a miscue of fun. Oh look Matt is running at me waving his arms...time to play...and the whole misbehaviour of checking out a sandwhich will be missed.
> 
> So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.
> 
> Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training
> 
> M&R
> Paisley's Parents


Thank you for doing some study before you start! 

My suggestion is that you read up on some of the Ecollar training programs that are available and pick one. Follow it through the basics and then Tailer as needed to acheive your specific goals.


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## goldlover68

PaisleyH said:


> Hello All,
> We are preparing for our puppy to arrive on August 10th and reading alot about different training methods. We are outdoors people and intend for our dog to accompany us on all outdoor activities. From swimming, running, hiking, the soccer field, etc. etc.
> I have come across the remote collars and find them very appealing.
> 
> the theory in my mind for the 4 settings on the remote would be...
> 
> Audible beep: associate this with "come". if she is across the soccer field, instead of screaming "paisley, come" at the top of lungs from 100 yards away. Simply beeping the collar would signal her to return to us
> 
> Vibrate: this would be used if the beep for come is ignored or for a very mild correction for a behavior
> 
> Pulse: this would be for a correction to an undesirable behavior, digging up the flower beds, getting into a garbage can acorss the field, chasing a squirl toward a street, etc.
> 
> Continuous: i dont want to ever have to "continuously correct" our dog so this would not be used.
> 
> The aspect i like is that the dog associates the behviour with an immediate correction. If the dog is 100 yards away and starts sniffing around a picnic basket or eating someones sandwhich, me running 100 yards saying "Paisley NO" i feel is not going to be productive and she will not associate that action directly with my running and saying no....it would be more a miscue of fun. Oh look Matt is running at me waving his arms...time to play...and the whole misbehaviour of checking out a sandwhich will be missed.
> 
> So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts.
> 
> Also....suggested training schedules and methods for the remote training
> 
> M&R
> Paisley's Parents


From my limited experience with E Collars I agree with what these folks are saying. Their is a lot more to training and using this tool then you can imagine. You need to become a student of training to understand these concepts. One comment, with my dogs, I never use the collars at a level that makes the dog jerk, jump, or show any pain reaction. When setting the level of stimulus I want the dog to look around or back at me when I apply the pressure. They know something is happening but not sure what...key is I have their attention, but they are not being conditioned with pain!


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## EvanG

goldlover68 said:


> One comment, with my dogs, I never use the collars at a level that makes the dog jerk, jump, or show any pain reaction. When setting the level of stimulus I want the dog to look around or back at me when I apply the pressure. They know something is happening but not sure what...key is I have their attention, but they are not being conditioned with pain!


I appreciate your feelings about this. I think the important aspect in applying e-collar stimulus in training is that the e-collar is merely an implement of force or pressure. We use pressure (and/or force) to change behavior, not to hurt dogs. If a low level 2 nick evokes the needed change, why use more? Many trainers don't feel it's high enough unless the dog vocalizes. I don't get that. Weren't you just training the dog?

Whether using the e-collar or heeling stick, or any other implement of force, measure the amount of pressure by what the dog shows you; change of behavior. He was refusing to comply, was corrected, then complied, why more?

EvanG


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## lhowemt

I vehemently disagree that the beep is worthless or a gimmick. It is a warning and Lila knows that it means NOW and she virtually always whirls around and sprints back to me. The foundation of positive/clicker training means she RUNS to me in a recall, and the ecollar serves to remind her that it is not optional. I have no plans to use an ecollar on Pearl, I think most dogs can get by without it, with diligent training. Maybe the beep doesn't work with more intense ecollar training, but I love it and believe it allows me to virtually never give her stimulation. I don't think I could handle giving her stims very often, she is quite sensitive.

As Evan says, (if a beep works), "why more?" 


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## Swampcollie

The beep/tone may or may not be valuable depending upon how you've trained the dog. If it's used properly in a well thought out training program where it has meaning to the dog, it can be an asset. Otherwise it can be counter productive and confusing to the dog.


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## Loisiana

Here's why I don't like the beep function:

Imagine you had a child that loved to dance in the street. You taught them that they aren't supposed to dance in the street, but sometimes they take off and when you look over your shoulder, there they are, doing the <namethelatestdancecraze> in the street. So you shout at them "Get out of the street now before you get a spankin'!" The child hears you and _immediately _ gets out of the street, they don't want a spanking. 
You think all is well, until the next day, when there your child is again, dancing in the street. Once again you yell at them to get out of the street, and once again they immediately comply. And the cycle continues over and over and over.
The child has learned that he's not going to get that spanking without getting a warning first. So he runs out in the street and gets his groove on, because it's such a rush, and dances until he hears his warning.

The collar beep is you saying "get over here or I'm going to zap you!" So the dog listens, he doesn't want you to set off the collar. But then the next time happens, maybe he's running off to chase the cat he just saw across the road. You call him back, but he knows he doesn't have to come back yet, he can keep running, because he knows he's going to hear a beep before you really mean it.

IMO, if you don't want to give corrections, then don't give a threat that you are thinking about using one. If you are okay giving corrections, then give them when the dog deserves them. But threatening/warning the dog doesn't teach them anything but to wait for the threat.


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## Swampcollie

Loisiana said:


> The collar beep is you saying "get over here or I'm going to zap you!" So the dog listens, he doesn't want you to set off the collar. But then the next time happens, maybe he's running off to chase the cat he just saw across the road. You call him back, but he knows he doesn't have to come back yet, he can keep running, because he knows he's going to hear a beep before you really mean it.
> 
> IMO, if you don't want to give corrections, then don't give a threat that you are thinking about using one. If you are okay giving corrections, then give them when the dog deserves them. But threatening/warning the dog doesn't teach them anything but to wait for the threat.


That is exactly my point. Improper use of the tone teaches the dog that commands can be blown off until the sound of the tone and then they have to begin complying. "Until the tone sounds, mom doesn't mean it and I can ignor her."


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## lhowemt

She's not that bad, and sometimes I even forget the transmitter. It is far better than before where she would just blow me off all the time when critters are around, and better IMO than stimulating her any more than the little that I do. She gets a stim just often enough to remember seemingly well. I think it is quite clear to her what it means. It's probably not proper training and certainly is not perfect, but it works wonders for us. I'd recommend it to anyone in our position. We just want to walk and play and camp and swim. We are able to do that. Beep beep beep! and life is good. . No, she's not so good that I can have her by a busy road off leash. Nope, but I made that choice not to take the etraining to that level. But now I can keep her out from under the hooves of moose on mountain hikes.


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## K9-Design

lhowemt said:


> She gets a stim just often enough to remember seemingly well. I think it is quite clear to her what it means. It's probably not proper training and certainly is not perfect, but it works wonders for us. I'd recommend it to anyone in our position. We just want to walk and play and camp and swim. We are able to do that. Beep beep beep! and life is good. . No, she's not so good that I can have her by a busy road off leash. Nope, but I made that choice not to take the etraining to that level. But now I can keep her out from under the hooves of moose on mountain hikes.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


After vehemently disagreeing with me, you just proved my point. The beep was nothing without the actual correction from the "real" ecollar. 
IOW - the beep means nothing to a dog who is not collar conditioned and experienced in getting corrections from the collar if they do not comply.
I prefer the dog to respond instantly to my voice rather than a beep, so the whole beep thing seems superfluous to me.


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## LibertyME

Just makes me so sad....

Just last week, another pup has crossed my path that has been ruined with a shock collar...

The pup came from a breeder I know, from a breeding pair I know...

The family couldnt get a 'perfect' recall in 8 weeks, so they sent the puppy to 'bootcamp'.

Surprise...the puppies recall is the least of their problem...now they have a puppy that is anxious and not safe around their children.

The 'trainer' has washed his hands of the 5 month old and blamed it on the breeder.
But not after he cashed the family's $2000+ check.


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## Swampcollie

And this relates to the threads topic how?


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## LibertyME

PaisleyH said:


> ......So..as always....all opinions are very helpful..please share your thoughts......
> M&R
> Paisley's Parents




Because OP asked for "all opinions".....

There can be major fallout if a collar is not used appropriately.

For the record...although I have not found the need to use an ecollar for a family pet ...I train and work with a fist full of people that do....they are all 'good' people. Most are great trainers with great timing....some not so much.


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## lhowemt

K9-Design said:


> After vehemently disagreeing with me, you just proved my point. The beep was nothing without the actual correction from the "real" ecollar.
> IOW - the beep means nothing to a dog who is not collar conditioned and experienced in getting corrections from the collar if they do not comply.
> I prefer the dog to respond instantly to my voice rather than a beep, so the whole beep thing seems superfluous to me.


I never disagreed that the beep, without stimulation, is a useful training tool. I merely was pointing out that it is a good tool, and yes I am just a "pet trainer" dealing with a dog that had no interest in me under certain circumstances, and the beep allowed me to continue this communication without stimulating her very often. This is AFTER she developed a recall to the beep/bump, they were always used in conjunction for quite some time. The bump, while never much of anything, was slowly reduced to the lowest setting and then I was able to use the beep only about 95% of the time (this is an estimate). I also supported this training with our clicker training, and continued the click/treat whenever she responded. I'm confident that Lila would never stand up to constant stimulation, even at the lowest setting. 

So I don't think I have proven your point, or at least the point that I thought you were making. In the end, I don't really care, I just want to make the point that beeper function has it's benefits, even if not in your realm of the training world.


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## MarieP

Loisiana said:


> IMO, if you don't want to give corrections, then don't give a threat that you are thinking about using one. If you are okay giving corrections, then give them when the dog deserves them. But threatening/warning the dog doesn't teach them anything but to wait for the threat.


Just wanted to highlight this, in case anyone missed it  Thank you Jodie!!! Great post.


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## EvanG

LibertyME said:


> Just makes me so sad....
> 
> Just last week, another pup has crossed my path that has been ruined with a shock collar...


Nope! No dog has *EVER* been ruined by a "shock collar". Any dog that was ruined in association with the e-collar was ruined by a *person* improperly using one. An e-collar is inert. On its own it does nothing at all. Used properly it is the premier training tool of our trade. Conversely, used improperly it can produce very bad results. But that is true of any tool.


K9-Design said:


> After vehemently disagreeing with me, you just proved my point. The beep was nothing without the actual correction from the "real" e-collar.


Absolutely correct. The father of modern e-collar methodology, Rex Carr, spoke harshly of "beepers, bells and whistles", as he called them. "Don't fire a warning shot. Train the dog and be fair about it."

EvanG


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## LibertyME

Agreed........


EvanG said:


> Nope! No dog has *EVER* been ruined by a "shock collar". Any dog that was ruined in association with the e-collar was ruined by a *person* improperly using one. An e-collar is inert. On its own it does nothing at all. Used properly it is the premier training tool of our trade. Conversely, used improperly it can produce very bad results. But that is true of any tool.Absolutely correct. The father of modern e-collar methodology, Rex Carr, spoke harshly of "beepers, bells and whistles", as he called them. "Don't fire a warning shot. Train the dog and be fair about it."
> EvanG


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## Ljilly28

Here is a recent article about E collars: New findings on shock collars | Blog | AVSAB


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## Alaska7133

Do you have a link to the actual study, or just reviews of the study? I was unable to find the link on that page, but I might have totally missed it. Thank you


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## tippykayak

Alaska7133 said:


> Do you have a link to the actual study, or just reviews of the study? I was unable to find the link on that page, but I might have totally missed it. Thank you


The 2012 Blackwell et al. article: "The use of electronic collars for training domestic dogs: estimated prevalence, reasons and risk factors for use, and owner perceived success as compared to other training methods."


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## Wyatt's mommy

EvanG said:


> Nope! No dog has *EVER* been ruined by a "shock collar". Any dog that was ruined in association with the e-collar was ruined by a *person* improperly using one. An e-collar is inert. On its own it does nothing at all. Used properly it is the premier training tool of our trade. Conversely, used improperly it can produce very bad results. *But that is true of any tool*. EvanG


Absolutely true! Thank you for stating that fact!


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## Alaska7133

Tippy kayak,
Thanks for posting the link. 
I took some time to read the article. Catch me if I'm wrong, but it appears to be not really a study but more of a survey of dog owners and their training methods. That being said I do see this survey as being more of the owners opinion and not a truly objective study of training methods. To me an objective study would be one where there is a double blind study with 2 large groups of subjects that have stimuli introduced in a controlled environment. Mailing a survey to lots of random people to me is not very controlled. I have good training days and bad training days with my dogs, I could fill out that survey a variety of ways depending on my mood. None of this actually is observing the dog and it's reactions to various methods. Please correct me if I have read the information on the link incorrectly. There was one other point I'd like to make, nowhere did I see a link to the exact survey questions, maybe I missed it, but it would sure have been nice to see what questions were asked.


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## Swampcollie

Same old tired nonsense again TK?

If the approach you advocate is so effective, where are the multitudes of North American (U.S. and/or Canada) Field Champions and Amateur Field Champions who have reached those successes employing only that methodology?

There are none, and there NEVER has been one. 

The people who oppose Ecollars tend to misrepresent what Ecollars are. They are not a training method. They are a tool, nothing more. The training "method" that employs their use is basically the old fashioned "carrot and stick" approach that has been used by mankind for thousands of years. The method has been around that long because it's effective in delivering acceptable results in a reasonable time frame and workable for even the most novice beginning trainer. This approach has delivered literally millions of obedient well trained pets, hunting dogs, working dogs, and countless Champions in *All* venues of performance. 

It has a long standing track record of successful results.


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## tippykayak

Swampcollie said:


> Same old tired nonsense again TK?
> 
> If the approach you advocate is so effective, where are the multitudes of North American (U.S. and/or Canada) Field Champions and Amateur Field Champions who have reached those successes employing only that methodology?
> 
> There are none, and there NEVER has been one.
> 
> The people who oppose Ecollars tend to misrepresent what Ecollars are. They are not a training method. They are a tool, nothing more. The training "method" that employs their use is basically the old fashioned "carrot and stick" approach that has been used by mankind for thousands of years. The method has been around that long because it's effective in delivering acceptable results in a reasonable time frame and workable for even the most novice beginning trainer. This approach has delivered literally millions of obedient well trained pets, hunting dogs, working dogs, and countless Champions in *All* venues of performance.
> 
> It has a long standing track record of successful results.


Woah, man. This is hugely hostile for no reason. I haven't posted one word against e-collars in this thread. A poster asked for an article because he or she couldn't find it, and I posted it. I haven't said _anything_ for or against any method or tool. Not a single word.

Furthermore, this thread was started by somebody who wanted to teach their puppy recall. A puppy, by my math, who is around 4 months now. Just because it's in the H&F forum doesn't mean that the OP was talking about how to train an FC dog. I have no interest in revisiting that debate, which we've had many times. You may have noticed how carefully I have been avoiding those conversations in H&F for months now. Or apparently not.

Your post is totally uncalled for. Happy training.


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## tippykayak

Alaska7133 said:


> Tippy kayak,
> Thanks for posting the link.
> I took some time to read the article. Catch me if I'm wrong, but it appears to be not really a study but more of a survey of dog owners and their training methods. That being said I do see this survey as being more of the owners opinion and not a truly objective study of training methods. To me an objective study would be one where there is a double blind study with 2 large groups of subjects that have stimuli introduced in a controlled environment. Mailing a survey to lots of random people to me is not very controlled. I have good training days and bad training days with my dogs, I could fill out that survey a variety of ways depending on my mood. None of this actually is observing the dog and it's reactions to various methods. Please correct me if I have read the information on the link incorrectly. There was one other point I'd like to make, nowhere did I see a link to the exact survey questions, maybe I missed it, but it would sure have been nice to see what questions were asked.


The study does attempt to control for bias, but you're totally right that data was gathered entirely by survey, not by direct observation of experimental cohorts. There was a significant quantity of data, so they were hopefully able to control for people's day-to-day ups and downs, as well as some bias, but I agree that survey-based research should be taken with a grain of salt.

The number of e-collar uses was a relatively small group (n=185), so if I were going to pick apart this study as somebody who was successfully using an e-collar, that's where I'd focus. You could make the argument that the cohort that chose e-collars were more likely to do so as a last resort and thus had dogs with more serious behavioral deficits. Then you'd end up with skewed results that showed the e-collar dogs making slower progress, even though the tool itself was not inferior.

I don't read it that way, but I also don't find it particularly conclusive. I do find it very interesting and potentially illuminating, though.


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## Sweese

Lots of great comments here. As Evan noted the e-collar is another tool and as other's have mentioned it does help at distances. The beeps and buzzers are not needed. At some point you will have your dog under control without any collar at all that is where you want be heading.
Since you bring up "come" or "here" let's address that.
What I recommend is using a check cord at ALL times when your puppy is out with you - for months and months. You can start with a short check cord but as your puppy gets older you will need a longer cord. You will also need a collar (other than an e-collar) to help apply pressure. I use a small pinch collar in favor of a choke chain. 
I always want to be able to have my dog come and for them to get use to obeying the first time not with repeated commands or yelling. The check cord works. Before you call your dog make sure you have your hand on the end of the check cord so you can quickly reel em in after you issue the command. It is human nature to get lazy and skip the cord but expect failure if this happens. The check cord is somewhat of a pain when you are out walking, hiking, etc. but always knowing you can get your dog is important. Stay consistent.
Once your recall command works well without distractions it is ok to start adding distractions such as kids, kids riding bikes, other dogs, etc....
Now for the e-collar... The e-collar will be your pressure just like the check cord/pinch collar used for all the basic obedience commands. First you need an e-collar with the ability to go VERY low. Test it on yourself to make sure you are good with trying this on your dog. If you do not like it on the lowest settings that is not good. Even at 5 or 5 months old you may out weigh your puppy 4-to-1 or more so remember this. An e-collar is NOT a quick way to train but a tool to help you on your way to off leash obedience (even without the e-collar). 
Assuming you are doing a good job on all the basic obedience training with the leash and check cord you could probably bring in an e-collar around 5 months of age. At that point it comes alongside the check cord/pinch collar and is used at the same time. It does take a few minutes to gear up the puppy but it is worth it. Take the time and be consistent! 
It is important to fit the e-collar tight (about 1 fingers width) between the collar and the neck. Obviously, it will be much tighter than a normal collar or pinch collar. When the e-collar pressure is applied (by pressing the button) it will be done when you are applying normal leash pressure for the command(sit, heel, here, etc....) When this is done for the first time and you are on the lowest setting you may not see a reaction at all. That is ok. The right setting is probably when the puppy does kind of head shake like they are trying to get something off their head. Never should the setting be high enough for the dog to vocalize. If your lowest setting causes vocalizing get a different collar with lower settings, wait until the dog is older/bigger or do not use it at all. You need a collar with a setting low enough that the dog does not react at all.
Note: unlike a pinch collar an e-collar will be more intense when your dog is wet. My experience is that you should go down 1-2 settings when your dog is working in and out of the water. 
If you are like me I want testimonials/reviews and not just training tips so I will give you some recent facts in the training of my Golden gun dog "Cassie":
The collar I use is a Sportsdog Wetland 425 which has 16 settings. They do make a model with lower settings (The 105 I think) and I would probably recommend it unless you have a large, bold golden. I have never gone past level 5. My dog though not large(50 lbs @ 10 months) is very bold and a strong retriever.
I started my dog "Cassie" on the e-collar at 5 months at level 1 and I continued to use the pinch collar 100% along side the e-collar until 7 months. We gradually came off the pinch collar after 7 months. I used the e-collar to reinforce "no", "sit", "stay", "here", "heel", "down" and "fetch" (force fetching). She is now completely off leash at 10 months including quartering and steady to wing/shot for upland game. When needed my collar setting is level 4 on dry land and a 3 when she is in the water or wet. Over the past couple of weeks my only e-collar corrections have been for an occasional "heel", "here" or to reinforce a quartering turn when hunting. Her gene pool and consistent training has made her great. There was no magic from the e-collar. I see the e-collar as a VERY lightweight easy to handle VERY long check cord/pinch collar combo.
I hope some of this helps. Have fun training!

Regards,

Sweese


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## Alaska7133

Jay
Thank you for an informative post. Good luck with your girl, she sounds great!


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## coaraujo

Swampcollie said:


> If the approach you advocate is so effective, where are the multitudes of North American (U.S. and/or Canada) Field Champions and Amateur Field Champions who have reached those successes employing only that methodology?
> 
> There are none, and there NEVER has been one.


Is this really true? I understand that its a very uncommon way to train for hunt and field, but there are really none? 

Just asking out of curiosity - thanks!


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## Jersey's Mom

Swampcollie said:


> Same old tired nonsense again TK?
> 
> If the approach you advocate is so effective, where are the multitudes of North American (U.S. and/or Canada) Field Champions and Amateur Field Champions who have reached those successes employing only that methodology?
> 
> There are none, and there NEVER has been one.
> 
> The people who oppose Ecollars tend to misrepresent what Ecollars are. They are not a training method. They are a tool, nothing more. The training "method" that employs their use is basically the old fashioned "carrot and stick" approach that has been used by mankind for thousands of years. The method has been around that long because it's effective in delivering acceptable results in a reasonable time frame and workable for even the most novice beginning trainer. This approach has delivered literally millions of obedient well trained pets, hunting dogs, working dogs, and countless Champions in *All* venues of performance.
> 
> It has a long standing track record of successful results.


To the OP: If you were wondering why you are only seeing answers that promote the use of an electric collar... here you have your answer. This is how folks are treated for daring to offer a different opinion in this section of the forum. If you are interested in learning about other options for training a reliable recall, my recommendation would be to go to the main discussion or training section and post a thread there. You may not want to post it as an either/or with an e-collar, lest your thread be sidetracked with this kind of fighting. There are many methods for teaching your dog basic obedience (including recall amidst great distraction) and there are a number of knowledgable people to tell you about them on this forum... but I don't think you will find them joining in on this thread for reasons that have been made abundantly obvious here. Good luck with your pup, whatever you choose.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Ljilly28

Many this particular forum have decided to use e collars and other decided against; some a middle ground like pros who collar condition skillfully can use then but not Joe public who gets on from Walmart and straps it on with no training.

The good thing about posting articles and opinions pro and con is for people who come here trying to decide about training methods. 

These are often people who have never even heard of a field trail, nevermind trained for one.

Some people will assert strong opions on why they believe it is a useful/crucial tool. Others assert opinions it is worse than a last resort, and recommend against using them. 

Well, that is a dialogue, that is a debate. No one gets to own the topic and be the only one who is right.

Am was reading through some of the votes people made for the CPTD's trainer survey on E collars. Just like in a field training culture the e collar is normailized and lionized, in the veterinary/ professional pet dog trainer world the e collar is demonized for good reason and based on studies and vast experience. 

I am sure you can use it to train a great field trail dog and I am sure you can use it to shut down and ruin a pet dog. My days tend to deal with helping the later, so that is my focus.


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## Ljilly28

LibertyME said:


> Just makes me so sad....
> 
> Just last week, another pup has crossed my path that has been ruined with a shock collar...
> 
> The pup came from a breeder I know, from a breeding pair I know...
> 
> The family couldnt get a 'perfect' recall in 8 weeks, so they sent the puppy to 'bootcamp'.
> 
> Surprise...the puppies recall is the least of their problem...now they have a puppy that is anxious and not safe around their children.
> 
> The 'trainer' has washed his hands of the 5 month old and blamed it on the breeder.
> But not after he cashed the family's $2000+ check.


Is this puppy doing better now? That is such a sad story, and typifies what we see here.


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## Ljilly28

Swampcollie said:


> If the approach you advocate is so effective, where are the multitudes of North American (U.S. and/or Canada) Field Champions and Amateur Field Champions who have reached those successes employing only that methodology?
> 
> 
> In the thousands of clients we teach in a year, I do not think even one has ever seen a field trail and only a handful could define it.
> 
> I am quizzical about how people get FC titles relates to the OP.


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## MillionsofPeaches

I believe they are useful but I don't believe just joe blow should go get one and use one without experienced help. 
My trainer doesn't advice me to use one right now. We've been working for a while together and while he has primarily trained me how to train her (pretty hands off and lets me do most of the work under his guidance), he is just now putting it on my girl and he is the one using it. She is pretty sensitive and he wanted to make sure she was ready, understood exactly what is expected of her and that this wouldn't make her fret more. (she is a worrier.)
While the trainer is the one using it on her, he has told me that I'm not ready to use it and when the time comes he will teach me the proper use and help me get what I need. 

If that isn't emphasizing the importance of proper handling, I don't know what is. And honestly, I know I'm inexperienced and I don't want to do anything to slow her down just because I want to results faster.


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## EvanG

Swampcollie said:


> Same old tired nonsense again TK?
> 
> If the approach you advocate is so effective, where are the multitudes of North American (U.S. and/or Canada) Field Champions and Amateur Field Champions who have reached those successes employing only that methodology?
> 
> There are none, *and there NEVER has been one*.
> 
> The people who oppose Ecollars tend to misrepresent what Ecollars are. They are not a training method. They are a tool, nothing more. The training "method" that employs their use is basically the old fashioned "carrot and stick" approach that has been used by mankind for thousands of years. The method has been around that long because it's effective in delivering acceptable results in a reasonable time frame and workable for even the most novice beginning trainer. This approach has delivered literally millions of obedient well trained pets, hunting dogs, working dogs, and countless Champions in *All* venues of performance.
> 
> It has a long standing track record of successful results.


I agree with pretty much everything here, except the assertion that "...there NEVER has been one". There have been a great many FC's & AFC's non-collar trained. However, I'm not aware of a single one in the last 20 years.

The efficiency and flexibility of the modern e-collar, and the top programs designed for its use, make it not only extremely efficient, but also very humane and easy on the dogs. We're making field champions these days out of dogs that in the 1970's would not make it through most pros programs. 

Indeed, the overall e-collar programs of the past 3-4 decades have had a profound influence on breeding, and have moved the retriever breeds toward generally brighter, more sensitive dogs than in the past. That aspect doesn't get much press, but it's true. That is yet another reason why so many more dogs are working at ever higher levels of excellence. 

The number one All-age field trial retriever in the US at present is FC-AFC Teal Creek Patton's Saber. So far this year alone, Saber was a finalist in the Amateur National Championship, won three Open All age Stakes and won an Amateur All Age Stake. At one field trial he won both the Open & Amateur stakes making him a member of the elite "Double Header Club". Saber has qualified for 5 Nationals! NOTE: Updated info on Saber; Saber (FC-AFC Teal Creek Patton's Saber) had another double header win and 6 other wins for a total of 8 ALL Age wins and 48.5 points this year so far. He has qualified for 9 Nationals.

The best news of all? He is owner-trained and owner-handled...entirely. All amateur trained and handled - a Smartwork dog, by the way! :--big_grin:

EvanG


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## Megora

Jersey's Mom said:


> To the OP: If you were wondering why you are only seeing answers that promote the use of an electric collar... here you have your answer. This is how folks are treated for daring to offer a different opinion in this section of the forum. If you are interested in learning about other options for training a reliable recall, my recommendation would be to go to the main discussion or training section and post a thread there. You may not want to post it as an either/or with an e-collar, lest your thread be sidetracked with this kind of fighting. There are many methods for teaching your dog basic obedience (including recall amidst great distraction) and there are a number of knowledgable people to tell you about them on this forum... but I don't think you will find them joining in on this thread for reasons that have been made abundantly obvious here. Good luck with your pup, whatever you choose.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Julie - the OP asked her question months ago. This is a revived thread.


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## Jersey's Mom

Megora said:


> Julie - the OP asked her question months ago. This is a revived thread.


Totally missed that part -- thanks! Though I do just have to say, I still don't believe that justifies the response that was given.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## EvanG

Jersey's Mom said:


> Totally missed that part -- thanks! Though I do just have to say, I still don't believe that justifies the response that was given.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


What was wrong with it?

EvanG


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## Jersey's Mom

For starters -- "Same old tired nonsense again TK?"
Do you really think that's an appropriate way to address a fellow forum member? Don't ask questions to which you already know the answer, Evan. I'm not getting into a big posting war with you, much as you seem to enjoy that sort of thing.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Wyatt's mommy

Ljilly28 said:


> Many this particular forum have decided to use e collars and other decided against; some a middle ground like pros who collar condition skillfully can use then but not Joe public who gets on from Walmart and straps it on with no training.
> 
> .


I am a Joe public who can skillfully use one. And I and others have never suggested shopping for one at Walmart and strap it on a dog without training.



EvanG said:


> The best news of all? He is owner-trained and owner-handled...entirely. All amateur trained and handled - a Smartwork dog, by the way! :--big_grin:
> 
> EvanG


How awesome is that!



Megora said:


> Julie - the OP asked her question months ago. This is a revived thread.


Yep. Brought back up to ruffle feathers I would assume!


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## EvanG

Jersey's Mom said:


> For starters -- "Same old tired nonsense again TK?"
> Do you really think that's an appropriate way to address a fellow forum member? Don't ask questions to which you already know the answer, Evan. I'm not getting into a big posting war with you, much as you seem to enjoy that sort of thing.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Sorry, I didn't connect the right posts I guess. I thought you were responding to Swampcollie.

EvanG


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## K9-Design




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## EvanG

Does that mean we're not allowed to discuss e-collars anymore?

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs

I don't think we've ever really discussed e-collars. I think it's been a two - way monologue.


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## sterregold

EvanG said:


> I agree with pretty much everything here, except the assertion that "...there NEVER has been one". There have been a great many FC's & AFC's non-collar trained. However, I'm not aware of a single one in the last 20 years.
> 
> The efficiency and flexibility of the modern e-collar, and the top programs designed for its use, make it not only extremely efficient, but also very humane and easy on the dogs. We're making field champions these days out of dogs that in the 1970's would not make it through most pros programs.
> 
> Indeed, the overall e-collar programs of the past 3-4 decades have had a profound influence on breeding, and have moved the retriever breeds toward generally brighter, more sensitive dogs than in the past. That aspect doesn't get much press, but it's true. That is yet another reason why so many more dogs are working at ever higher levels of excellence.
> 
> 
> 
> EvanG


I read the summary article of the British study. I found it problematic in the ways Tippy noted (sample size and pre-existing deeper issues with the dogs in the ecollar group), but also in the research premise. It relied on anecdotal reporting by owners rather than objective observation of use in an experimental setting with well designed controls and variables, derived from the variables seen in different applications of the tool in the structured ways it is used in the training programs of many field trainers, as well as the way some obedience trainers use it versus the "Walmart pet owner" using it in an non-systematic, non-structured way. Trying to attribute failures of training to the tool is making a _non causa, pro causa_ logic error in the context of this study and the actual data they collected. 

I think Evan, there may have been a lab trained without it--by Bon Mallari's brother, as he has mentioned it over on RTF. I would also remind people the dogs who did make FC before the advent of the collar were not trained using force-free methods by any stretch of the imagination. I am thankful for the collar as a judiciously used distance tool when I hear some of the 90 y.o. old-timers talking about what was done in the old days to train the trial dogs and de-cheat etc....I would not be playing the hunt test game if those were the only methods at my disposal to get a well-trained hunting dog in a reasonable amount of time.


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## Ljilly28

hotel4dogs said:


> I don't think we've ever really discussed e-collars. I think it's been a two - way monologue.


That is a such a true comment. The great part about it is that undecided dog owners pondering what they think about it will hear two strong sides, and read/ research/ take it seriously. For anyone serious about training dogs, on either side, it is a topic that matters .

I think if someone is sick of the issue, they just shouldnt read it or post on it. The editorial comments can be funny or heckling or whatever, but several of us on both sides make our yearly living training dogs, so it is a professional question too. I think all professions talk shop and talk ethics.

I know it came up for me recently bc the CPDT is doing a large survey about E collar use.


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## EvanG

That all indicates to me that the conversation should just be beginning, not ending. Anyone who has adequate intellectual curiosity could learn a great deal, as long as they bring an open mind to the table.

EvanG


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## sterregold

Someone over in an obedience forum on FB posted this video recently which addresses a lot of the myths about ecollars and the static correction they produce. 
Education on E Collars, What Happens In The Water? - YouTube


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## lhowemt

I tried to watch the video but couldn't stand his insulting blathering. Why always insult those with different opinions? Surely everyone had been wrong at least once in their life. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## MillionsofPeaches

dang when he said it felt good it made me want to put this on my back muscles! I have really bad muscle problems in my neck and headache issues related to that. Perhaps this would help, lol


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## Ljilly28

EvanG said:


> That all indicates to me that the conversation should just be beginning, not ending. Anyone who has adequate intellectual curiosity could learn a great deal, as long as they bring an open mind to the table.
> 
> EvanG


I agree with that. It is an appropriate and important topic for anyone training a dog, and especially professionally.


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## EvanG

Awesome! I'll be happy to start. 

I began training retrievers in 1976. The first pro I studied under was the late Hall of Fame trainer D.L. Walters (not EVER to be confused with Richard Wolters of "Water Dog" fame). D.L. was a staunch opponent of e-collars for a very long time. He came around very slowly, and never adopted any of Rex Carr's ideas. To him the e-collar became a substitute tool to replace stock prods and bird shot, etc. as corporal correction instruments.

As field trial competition became more and more dominated by dogs trained via Carr methodology I became more interested in learning about it. I went to work for John Hahn, a long time Carr student. As his assistant I learned formal Basics using the old Tri Tronics A1-70 unit: 1 button/all it had, every time! Very different from today's units.

Two years later I traveled to Rex Carr's kennel in Escalon, CA to learn from Rex himself. I spent the whole summer with him, and only wished I could have stayed far longer. One thing that made that summer even better was that TT had just begun to market the first ever variable-at-the-transmitter e-collar; the 100-A. It not only had a 2-button, low-med-hi set up on the transmitter, but also had plugs for the receiver; levels 1 - 5. WOW! That was a great jump. If anyone is interested I'll be happy to share how that came to pass.

But e-collar training methods took a giant leap forward at that point in time! Within a 3 month period I advanced from a competitive FT pro to a somewhat dominant one - at least in junior stakes, like Derby & Qualifying. It cannot be said the the e-collar alone did this. It can only be correctly stated that the tool (e-collar), combined with Mr. Carr's brilliant and innovative methods positively revolutionized retriever training forever.

That's my personal historical learning curve regarding the e-collar. The assertions that the e-collar is itself a training method, or that it, by itself, is regarded as the short route to training success is false on its face.

More to come.

EvanG


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## Tatnall

K9-Design said:


> Just FYI - the beep or vibrate function (which only comes on pet training collars, not professional field training collars...which should tell you something (it's for selling to owners, not dogs))....anyways the beep or vibrate will mean absolutely nothing to your dog unless it is backed up with an actual nick from the collar if they ignore it.


I am late to this one, but did want to point out that my TT Pro 500 has the beep function and it is a field training collar.

The beep is mostly used to check that the collar is on and the toggle is on the right collar but I have one dog that I used the beep extensively for a while. I taught him that the beep meant "good dog" essentially it became a long distance clicker. This is the exact opposite of how some discussed using it. The beep told the dog that a correction was not coming and he was being good.

Just thought I'd toss that in. I can see how it would be useful to use the beep this way in a lot of applications but I have only done it with one guy, though.


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## hollyk

Tatnall said:


> I am late to this one, but did want to point out that my TT Pro 500 has the beep function and it is a field training collar.
> 
> The beep is mostly used to check that the collar is on and the toggle is on the right collar but I have one dog that I used the beep extensively for a while. I taught him that the beep meant "good dog" essentially it became a long distance clicker. This is the exact opposite of how some discussed using it. The beep told the dog that a correction was not coming and he was being good.
> 
> Just thought I'd toss that in. I can see how it would be useful to use the beep this way in a lot of applications but I have only done it with one guy, though.


I have a friend that uses the beep on her collar the same way. It means "good dog".


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