# New England - Cloverdale and Nautilus breeder question/opinions on upcoming litter



## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

Hello! 

My wife and I would like to put a deposit down on a Golden that will be born in October from Cloverdale in Tolland, CT (Jane Zimmerman). We have spoken with Jane and she has been great and see she has a great reputation through our research. 

The litter will be from her female "Kissyfit" and Male "Timber" from Nautilus in Plymouth MA (Julie MacKinnon). In my searching, I did come across some negative posts regarding Nautilus, so I wanted to reach out and see based on the links below if there is anything I should be concerned about? Again, just going by what I have read and feel responsible to be diligent with this process! 

Cloverdale "Kissy" on K9data: https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=957872

Nautilus "Timber" on K9data https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=626423

Timber on Nautilus Website: Nautilus Golden Retrievers - Plymouth, MA (USA)

Cloverdale Website: http://www.simplesite.com/cloverdale/591781

Thank you for your help, it is appreciated! 

- Neal


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Should be a beautiful litter.

Only concern is Timber (sire)... eyes are out of date. Everyone seems to have normal history but have to wonder why they didn't send them in since 2017. Doesn't mean they haven't been done but would certainly ask why. He also has 4 offspring with failed hips but considering how many in the list I'm not sure this is an issue. You might ask the breeder why she picked this boy. Good breeders have a reason for stud selection and convenience is seldom the reason.
Dam's side looks good, all clearances history in place.

I don't know either breeder, this is just what I see on OFA. Maybe someone has personal experience with them.


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## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

puddles everywhere said:


> Should be a beautiful litter.
> 
> Only concern is Timber (sire)... eyes are out of date. Everyone seems to have normal history but have to wonder why they didn't send them in since 2017. Doesn't mean they haven't been done but would certainly ask why. He also has 4 offspring with failed hips but considering how many in the list I'm not sure this is an issue. You might ask the breeder why she picked this boy. Good breeders have a reason for stud selection and convenience is seldom the reason.
> Dam's side looks good, all clearances history in place.
> ...


Thank you so much for the reply. I will be sure to look into those concerns. Cloverdale also has a male puppy available we were considering. Would you mind looking at the sire and dam as well for that litter? It is "take the money and run from Tangleloft, and Matilda from Cloverdale. Thanks again for the guidance. 

"Take the money and run" (From Tangleloft) and "Matilda" (From Cloverdale and Ginger run - Amy Burnim)
"Take the money and run" K9data https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=983897
Take the money and run: https://tangleloftgoldens.com/vegas.php
Matilda K9data - https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=916121
Matilda on Ginger Run: https://www.gingerrungoldenretrievers.com/index.php/our-girls


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Matilda needs her k9data page updated but did find OFA clearances. My only concern with her is 4 out of 7 siblings have either failed hips or elbows. JMHO but "Cloverdale" doesn't seem to bring much to the table.

Sire looks great. Tangleloft is a well know breeder, they must see something about this pairing I'm missing. FYI your k9 link for him doesn't work but didn't take the time to see what was wrong. All clearances are current and posted on OFA for this boy.


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## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

puddles everywhere said:


> Matilda needs her k9data page updated but did find OFA clearances. My only concern with her is 4 out of 7 siblings have either failed hips or elbows. JMHO but "Cloverdale" doesn't seem to bring much to the table.
> 
> Sire looks great. Tangleloft is a well know breeder, they must see something about this pairing I'm missing. FYI your k9 link for him doesn't work but didn't take the time to see what was wrong. All clearances are current and posted on OFA for this boy.


Thanks again for your advice


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## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

Does anyone else from this area have experience with any of these breeders? My wife and I are waiting to hear back to put a deposit down on a puppy from Nautilus Timber and Cloverdale Kissy. I will ask about Timbers out of date eye exam. Are his 4 offspring with failed hips something that should concern me? He has so many offspring I'm not sure if this falls into an accepted number. 

Here are their OFA pages. Thank you again. 


Timber: https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1671738 
Kissy: https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1898363


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## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

puddles everywhere said:


> Should be a beautiful litter.
> 
> Only concern is Timber (sire)... eyes are out of date. Everyone seems to have normal history but have to wonder why they didn't send them in since 2017. Doesn't mean they haven't been done but would certainly ask why. He also has 4 offspring with failed hips but considering how many in the list I'm not sure this is an issue. You might ask the breeder why she picked this boy. Good breeders have a reason for stud selection and convenience is seldom the reason.
> Dam's side looks good, all clearances history in place.
> ...


Hi Puddles, I'm sorry for the question I am new to reading the information on OFA.. how do I know if the Sire's offspring has failed hips? I see if I put the curser over the "GR" code it says hips good or fair etc. If there is no "GR" number does it mean they failed? or just that there was no testing? 

Thank you for the help.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I PMd you my thoughts on the Timber x Kissy litter. But I will say that I am underwhelmed with Cloverdale's dogs, overall. I do like the Nautilus boy (though imho he's a little short on leg for my tastes).

In terms of the offspring of Timber with failed hips, there were three litters where failed hips were reported. (Note: usually only one or two pups from any given litter ever even report to OFA, so there's no telling what went on in all the other puppies who never tested/reported to OFA.) Two of those litters were tight line breedings. A high COI line breeding like this brings out any latent genetic problems hiding in there, and sure enough, it found a hip problem. The third litter had a low COI and only very common dogs in the genetically "most influential" analysis, so I don't see where the problem comes from, but clearly there is a problem with that pairing. So, is it the sire, the dam, or a genetic quirk of this pairing? No way to know. 

The one thing I'll say is that Timber throws a good number of "fair" hips along with the three litters with fails, so clearly he has something going on in there. But he also has a number of litters with no reported hip problems. And Kissy has excellent hips, which is pretty rare, and OFA doesn't show any obvious deficiencies anywhere on her side, so she's bringing good hip genetics to the table, which might mitigate whatever Timber has going on.

In terms of hips, I personally wouldn't have a problem buying a puppy from this litter.


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## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

DanaRuns said:


> I PMd you my thoughts on the Timber x Kissy litter. But I will say that I am underwhelmed with Cloverdale's dogs, overall. I do like the Nautilus boy (though imho he's a little short on leg for my tastes).
> 
> In terms of the offspring of Timber with failed hips, there were three litters where failed hips were reported. (Note: usually only one or two pups from any given litter ever even report to OFA, so there's no telling what went on in all the other puppies who never tested/reported to OFA.) Two of those litters were tight line breedings. A high COI line breeding like this brings out any latent genetic problems hiding in there, and sure enough, it found a hip problem. The third litter had a low COI and only very common dogs in the genetically "most influential" analysis, so I don't see where the problem comes from, but clearly there is a problem with that pairing. So, is it the sire, the dam, or a genetic quirk of this pairing? No way to know.
> 
> ...


Hi Dana, I had just PMed you back before seeing this. As I mentioned, thank you so much for taking the time to provide some guidance.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Hips & elbows are generally done at the same time. So if you see elbows and no hip number it's usually because they failed. It would be easier to research if the form is marked to show failing results but most do not do this. Of course this works in reverse, hips without elbows # means the elbows failed... unless the date on the dog is from way back. Breeders sometimes use frozen sperm from dogs that passed years ago. If there are letters, like DJD it is failed... passing gets a number.

Prior to say... 2003 ? (not sure of exact date) elbows & eyes were not required. Amazing how many health issues have become such a serious problem in such a short time.

In case you don't know... breeding should not happen until all FINAL clearances are in place. Hips & elbows should be done at or after age 24 months, done only once. These rads are submitted to OFA directly from the Dr. / clinic. Heart by cardiologist (for goldens anyway) after 1 yr again done only once and eyes are done yearly and should be up to date prior to breeding. Heart & eyes are sent in by owner at a very minimal expense.

Happy hunting, you are off to a good start!


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

We are picking up our LONG AWAITED!!!! Boy from the Timber x Kissy litter this morning!!!!! His name will be Okemo, and he will live a fantastic life in Vermont in the winter months, and the beach in the Summer months!!! His Swiss mountain dog sister, Maple, is anxiously awaiting his arrival!!! We are thrilled with Jane and this litter, I spent A LOT of time researching just the right pup. This litter will be spectacular!


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## Ivyacres (Jun 3, 2011)

tuckerkeys said:


> We are picking up our LONG AWAITED!!!! Boy from the Timber x Kissy litter this morning!!!!! His name will be Okemo, and he will live a fantastic life in Vermont in the winter months, and the beach in the Summer months!!! His Swiss mountain dog sister, Maple, is anxiously awaiting his arrival!!! We are thrilled with Jane and this litter, I spent A LOT of time researching just the right pup. This litter will be spectacular!



Congrats, that's great news, please post lots and lots of photos!


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Congratulations, looking forward to hearing all about Okemo and seeing lots of pictures.


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## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

tuckerkeys said:


> We are picking up our LONG AWAITED!!!! Boy from the Timber x Kissy litter this morning!!!!! His name will be Okemo, and he will live a fantastic life in Vermont in the winter months, and the beach in the Summer months!!! His Swiss mountain dog sister, Maple, is anxiously awaiting his arrival!!! We are thrilled with Jane and this litter, I spent A LOT of time researching just the right pup. This litter will be spectacular!


WOW it is amazing to see your post! My wife and I talked with Jane today and she mentioned that she had met with a family from Vermont who picked up a boy! We are picking up our boy this Wednesday. His name will be Archie.


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

Hi! So how did your first night go with Archie? We're already going potty outside, in the snow....and he is loving his swiss-ter Maple. He's going to the beach today for the weekend, so we hope we're not messing up his comfort level in vt already. he is sleeping in our kitchen overnight and has decided he loved to sleep on the bottom of the kitchen island cart we have instead of the crate. when I have time I'll post pictures - so far so good!


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## OscarsDad (Dec 20, 2017)

tuckerkeys said:


> We are picking up our LONG AWAITED!!!! Boy from the Timber x Kissy litter this morning!!!!! His name will be Okemo, and he will live a fantastic life in Vermont in the winter months, and the beach in the Summer months!!! His Swiss mountain dog sister, Maple, is anxiously awaiting his arrival!!! We are thrilled with Jane and this litter, I spent A LOT of time researching just the right pup. This litter will be spectacular!


Welcome to VT!


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## Neals26 (Aug 22, 2019)

tuckerkeys said:


> Hi! So how did your first night go with Archie? We're already going potty outside, in the snow....and he is loving his swiss-ter Maple. He's going to the beach today for the weekend, so we hope we're not messing up his comfort level in vt already. he is sleeping in our kitchen overnight and has decided he loved to sleep on the bottom of the kitchen island cart we have instead of the crate. when I have time I'll post pictures - so far so good!


It sounds like Okemo is doing great!! What a lucky guy playing in the snow and going to the beach. Archie is surprisingly sleeping pretty well so far. We try to tire him out and pee right before bed and he has gone through the night without any accidents or having to go potty so far. We hadn't been bringing him outside to go to the bathroom yet, but talking with my wife I think we are going to start doing that. 

My 3 and 5 year old kids are keeping him busy playing! He seems to have a great temperament. Here are a few pics of the little guy..


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

He's so cute! 
Good to hear how well he's doing and how much fun you're having with him.


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

Here are a few pictures of Okemo! We're calling him oakie. LOVE Archies pictures!!!


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## tuckerkeys (Jul 18, 2008)

sorry - dont know how to turn these above. Neal i sent a PM to you with my personal info!


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## Ivyacres (Jun 3, 2011)

Ahhh, puppies are so darn cute!


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Great pictures, "Oakie" is so cute. 



> sorry - dont know how to turn these above.


Reduce the size of your pictures, they should post in the correct direction.


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