# On picking puppies



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

This is an _awesome _post. Thank you!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I also choose pups for buyers because I don't like the whole "first pick, second pick" thing. One person is always the "last pick," and that's not fair. You don't want a leftover puppy. So we try to match puppies to buyers' lifestyles and interests. And I don't make the choice for _you_, I make it _for the puppy_. It's the puppy's life I care about. I really don't care about you. Sorry, not sorry.

But if I have multiple puppies who would fit your home, I might let you choose between them, if I haven't already selected. And that does happen sometimes. 

Folks hereabouts know that we have a 24/7 puppy cam they can watch, and our puppy buyers watch. We also video various exercises we do with the puppies (neurological stimulation, scent detection, problem solving, woods walks, etc.) which we can share with puppy buyers. We had one buyer looking for a competition obedience dog, and she watched that feed like a hawk, carefully examining each puppy. She was able to pick out the best puppy for her purposes, and we let her do that. It worked out. Here's that pup at 14 months old.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I agree with you. Rukie's breeder did the picking and he is EXACTLY what we asked for. She explained that you could come to pick on the afternoon the wildest puppy was tired and think you are getting the calmest. The breeder is the one who knows the puppies and add the temperament testing to that and they really know.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Of course, we watch the litter primarily for ourselves. We did this breeding because we wanted a puppy from it for a particular reason. When you buy a puppy, you should know the reason the breeder bred that particular litter.

You see the puppy above. That was a perfect choice for her. But not for us. We were looking for a show dog. So we picked this puppy for ourselves. Here he is, also 14 months old.

























This guy is a great show dog, but would not have been a good dog for small children. He is super energetic and incredibly strong. While he's a happy guy, he's oblivious, and is a bull in a china shop. His wagging tail will clear a coffee table in nothing flat.  But when he was 8 weeks old, there was a family who was adamant that they wanted that puppy as a companion for their toddler daughter. LOL! Would not have been a good choice for them. But part of me wishes I could see that unfold.  (Yes, I have an evil streak!)


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think what I've seen...Some breeder has a litter - posts many pics and videos on fb. 

Puppy buyers are avidly following - and you see people seem to kinda fixate on certain puppies. Might be the most "visible" and unique pup in the litter for some reason? Might be the blondest puppy.... or darkest puppy....

People are dorks that way...  But I think some sympathy too is in order. Purchasing a puppy is something that happens once in 10-15 years for some people - I think probably that's why they get super weird and worked up about wanting specific puppies, and even wanting the whole "picking the puppy" experience.

^^^^ That said! ޏ₍ ὸ.ό₎ރ 

My two boys right now - I picked both of them. And it was the hardest thing ever. 

I'm absolutely content that I made the right picks in both cases, but Bertie especially it wasn't necessary a "miraculous predestined meeting" type thing. LOL. 

One of his brothers was all curled up in my lap and wanted to be held and loved the entire time I sat on the floor and chatted with the breeder's husband. This pup would have technically been my emotional pick not just because of the snuggling, but also because he was the closest to having an actual natural retrieve. 

Bertie FAILED the retrieve test. I also did not want to pick him because he was the blondest pup and I feel people who fixate on lightest colors are dorks and I didn't want to look like one in front of the breeder! LOL. But structurally and athletically - he was a better pick. 

The breeder told me that she felt that Bertie would be the best pick for me (it was his pic that she sent me prior to me going out and meeting the dogs), but she wanted me to decide for myself and didn't lead me one way or the other.

I think my point here is in theory - the breeder would have made the same choice for me that I made for myself.

Jojo was difficult for other reasons. He had retrieve drive, wanted to snuggle in my lap, was confident and outgoing, had the structure and coat I wanted.... etc, etc.... But so did his one brother. <= They were so close it was ridiculous. I could have picked either one. And I kept second guessing which one I should pick and why. <= The breeder would have picked 1 of those 2 boys for me - and either one would have been a good.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

I’m glad my breeder picked her. Oddly, she was the puppy from the videos I loved. Never imagined she’d be the one chosen for me. 

I listed what I would hope for in a puppy and that was definitely a down the road dog. Golden puppies are not always so golden. They will test limits and patience. And I think people assume they’re the easiest puppies. Last night her one dog trainer, said to her, “Stella you’re a therapy dog and you don’t even know it yet.” I almost cried. Lol. 

We have been in training 3 nights a week for 7 weeks after KPT this past fall. And we are doing a mini-session in between winter/spring sessions. It just reaffirmed that at 8 months tomorrow I have a puppy someone is seeing what my intent from the beginning is to work toward.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

After decades of rescue it was clear that people seldom picked the pup personality that was right for them. Not sure if they lack the honesty of their true personalities or are drawn to the characteristics they wish they had. Regardless I would pick the families for my rescues and gratefully never got one back in 40 years. Sure some people left without a dog but that's ok. (my name/number was on the microchip)

I was shocked when I went to pick up Sipsy. Breeder wanted to show me faces... like there was a homely one??? I'm just grateful I knew what would work, how to temperament test and all the other stuff that goes into picking a pup. I asked the breeders opinions and she had nothing to offer, she wanted my money and for me to leave. I should have realized when I sat in the floor I had already offended her!

I had a specific purpose for getting this pup and totally expected her to know which pup she thought I should have. People, please respect the breeder! A good breeder knows their pups, they have also been communicating with you for 2 months, they KNOW which pup will fit well for you. ... and which homes are not for her puppies  

Thanks Dana... really great subject/post!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

My breeder generally does a kind hybrid she picks/we pick thing. Technically, we have a pick order, but that doesn't mean you really get to pick out your own puppy. She guides each person to the right pick for them via a long phone call or in-person visit. She absolutely will not let a puppy go to a home that is not the right fit for them. Here's my example: We were second pick male for the litter with a service dog pick ahead of us. The people wanting a service dog (like a legit service dog with an actual job, not an ESA or fake ESA), had their heart set on my puppy. My breeder said no and they were mad at first, but she said that he was unquestionably not the dog for them and he does not have the temperament of a service dog. So even though they had first pick male, they didn't get to pick their puppy. And guess what: we both got the best puppy for us. "Green boy" has gone on to be an excellent service dog and my "black boy" gets to be my first performance dog. 

I am a firm believer in her judgment on placing puppies and guiding people to the right litter as well.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> My breeder generally does a kind hybrid she picks/we pick thing. Technically, we have a pick order, but that doesn't mean you really get to pick out your own puppy. She guides each person to the right pick for them via a long phone call or in-person visit. She absolutely will not let a puppy go to a home that is not the right fit for them. Here's my example: We were second pick male for the litter with a service dog pick ahead of us. The people wanting a service dog (like a legit service dog with an actual job, not an ESA or fake ESA), had their heart set on my puppy. My breeder said no and they were mad at first, but she said that he was unquestionably not the dog for them and he does not have the temperament of a service dog. So even though they had first pick male, they didn't get to pick their puppy. And guess what: we both got the best puppy for us. "Green boy" has gone on to be an excellent service dog and my "black boy" gets to be my first performance dog.


^^^ That's very similar to something that happened with my sister's collie when we all got him a couple years ago. 

The pups were 12 weeks old by the time my sister made her choice on a pup. In her case, she just wanted anything but a buff sable (what Arth the prior collie was). 

There was a service dog person who had picked a puppy a couple weeks earlier, but the temperaments of the puppies changed. By the time Mare picked Con-Con, he was the better working dog pick. 

The breeder thankfully protected Mare's pick - but that SD person was seriously working overtime on switching picks. By that time, my sister and niece had already bonded quite a bit with Con-Con, picked out a name for him, and so on.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> There was a service dog person who had picked a puppy a couple weeks earlier, but the temperaments of the puppies changed. By the time Mare picked Con-Con, he was the better working dog pick.
> 
> The breeder thankfully protected Mare's pick - but that SD person was seriously working overtime on switching picks. By that time, my sister and niece had already bonded quite a bit with Con-Con, picked out a name for him, and so on.


Good for that breeder for sticking with it! 

If the service dog people had gotten their way and Rocket was theirs, he would have washed out of training and they would have been pissed that she didn't give them the right dog. He's much too social for a service dog. --> He greets every person in the room every time we go visit family, regardless of how many people are there. There were 3 boys and 8 girls in Rocket's litter. They all have similar energy levels and temperament test scores within half a point of each other, but only our breeder knew the little nuances and differences in personality between each one after watching them grow up all day for 8 weeks. 

She will be deciding all homes for my next puppy's litter (there are only three puppies) and they are all going to competition/show homes. 

I think most puppy people that insist on picking their own puppy just haven't gotten one from a reputable breeder before and they don't know any better. That doesn't excuse being rude when told otherwise and getting pissy and backing out on a breeder though. And some have the mentality of "I'm paying $2,000 for a puppy, I better get to decide which one" without considering that everyone else is also paying that price for a puppy from the litter and that the $2,000 includes the breeder's "free" service of matching the perfect pup to the perfect family. Almost every person that I know of that has gone the reputable breeder route realizes after getting their first dog that the breeder knows best and trusts them absolutely with deciding which puppy goes home with them the second time. If they have doubts about who should pick during the first go-round, they don't have them anymore after they end up getting the right puppy, whether that was the cute playful one on the day they visited or not.


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## Brodys Rockies (Jan 8, 2019)

*Just a different opinion on the topic*

I guess I have a different opinion on this, but that's me. I'm not a breeder though I respect and appreciate what responsible breeders do for their dogs/pups and pet future pet owners. 

I'm certainly not a couch potato, nor do I want a lazy dog that is one either. I have made a few thread responses about our pup picking us. Let me explain in a bit more detail...Our first Golden was from a family breeder who had bred her female two times only. The last two times we have selected a pup, my wife was unable to be with me due to scheduling conflicts, but this last time she was on facetime to see all the pups and give her input to what she observed. 

When I went to pick out our first Golden pup, all the pups were in the fenced yard for me to see. I was amazed at how the pups were all over me, jumping around, chewing on my shoelaces, etc. There was this one pup that was a bit standoffish. When I picked him up, I knew instantly that he was the right pup for us. River was a gentle giant that provided us with eleven great years of memories we will cherish forever. 

Now fast forward to our new pup. There were nine pups in all. Four were males and five females. We wanted a male, so our choice was narrowed down to the four males we had to choose from. Once again, three of the males were all over me. They were even chewing on my shoelaces.:smile2: One of the males was so excited and a bit on the aggressive side that he nipped my ear which bled like crazy. He was noticeably more jumpy as I held him. Then there was this little fellow who was calmly watching his brothers jumping all over me from a few feet away. In time, after the other pups had been in my arms for a while and after they had all moved on to play with one another, this little guys calmly came over to me. When I picked him up, the first thing I noticed was how he snuggled up under my chin and laid his head on my shoulder as I held him close. He calmly stayed with me for the longest while and showed no interest in the other pups. Once again, we knew this was the right pup for us. So, in a sense, I feel River and now Brody chose us. Meaning, they demonstrated their demeanor in the way they responded to me when I held them. Was the behavior of both River and now Brody merely the results of sleepy pups??? Who can say for sure, but after living for eleven years with River, and so far after being home with Brody, and seeing the same type of behavior that I witnessed the day we found each other, I feel there is more to it than a sleepy pup or food... 

So, we're home and together now. What Brody displayed to us during the selection process has been exactly how he has acted since coming home with us. When deciding as to whether or not to get another Golden, my wife and I were concerned that maybe we shouldn't get another Golden because we feared we would always be comparing another Golden to River. I suspect it's impossible to not compare in some respects. As for comparing Brody to River, well, sometimes you experience things that are even better than some of the experiences you have had with a pet that is no longer with you. In our case, River never was what I would call a snuggler, but Brody is a snuggler plus and we really like this about him.

Brody will never be a sporting dog, show dog, service dog or a field dog, but he will hike the Rocky Mountains with us and enjoy all that Colorado has to offer. Whether we're camping in the wilderness, seeing the sights in our travel trailer or at home sitting by the firepit on a cool Colorado evening, Brody will always be by our side enjoying life with us.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Well, Roger, far be it from me to rain on your and Brody's parade. I'm glad you found the right pup for you.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I don't let people pick puppies either, Dana. I am happy to have their input but in reality most people - assuming they tell me the truth - are not going to know the puppy that will fit into their world seamlessly. They all know this on the front end- I dislike it when someone is pushy about liking Pastel or Blue or whoever in every single correspondence and usually I will remind them they are supposed to love all of them... 

when people visit a litter they see a momentary snapshot. Blue or Pastel might be the perfect puppy in that moment but in all the rest of the days moments, a whiney puppy or a bossy one.. which they do not see because they see the litter for just that little window of time. Trust the breeder! The breeder has a vested interest in the fit being perfect.


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## MushyB (Oct 31, 2018)

DanaRuns said:


> I'll say up front that I am a breeder who chooses puppies for each buyer.
> 
> 
> Let breeders pick your puppy. We know what the puppies are really like. 24 hours after getting home, you're going to be madly in love with whichever puppy we give you. But more important than choosing your puppy is choosing your breeder/litter. That's what you get to choose. Choose wisely.
> ...


Speaking as a GR fanatic but very much a novice with puppies: this is excellent advice. I was apprehensive about letting our breeder chose a dog for us initially, but the more I got to know our breeder (via email/phone calls, since we're on opposite sides of the US), I trusted he would chose the best family member for us. And he did! I really don't know how, but he*clearly* knows dogs far better than I, and the pup he chose for us is PERFECT for our family. I'm sure we would have loved whoever we ended up with, but the pup our breeder chose has slid so seamlessly into our household, it's very obvious to me he knew way better than us :smile2: 

Oftentimes, it's very beneficial to let the experts be experts - to me, this is one of those times!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I picked both of mine. 

My girl needed someone that could be patient while she was the forever puppy. She’s a wonderful girl. I’ve learned a lot training her for competition. Just earned our first U-CDX over the weekend.

My boy is truly the most closely bonded dog I’ve ever had! When I visited, I watched him completely ignore another puppy buyer. He ignored everyone but me and the breeder. In a way, he picked me. I really didn’t believe it until I was there while someone else was deciding which puppy she liked. He will be 2 in a month and he lives to work with me! We have several titles we earned in a year. We earned our first URO3 over the weekend. I know it’s going to slow down now.


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## Heidi Wheeler Duckworth (Aug 10, 2018)

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, but since it was referred to earlier in the thread I'm asking here. I know legitimate breeders breed specific dogs for a specific reason. I'm wondering about any breeders who breed for mainly for temperament. "Calm" and "mellow" are oxymorons when describing puppies, especially goldens. Was wondering if anyone knows breeders who tend to have pups on the more mellow end of the spectrum? Feel free to PM me with suggestions.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You have that piece right- calm and mellow are oxymorons in Goldens... there are usually calmer/more mellow puppies in a litter setting but once out of the litter setting, puppies are going to settle into their temperament outside of comparison to the rest of the litter. Experienced breeders are accustomed to how temperaments settle after the litter experience. Another reason to trust the breeder, and love ALL the puppies so you are happy w the one you get. So much of what a puppy becomes is determined by the home puppy goes to. Does that home take puppy figuratively everywhere, or does that home expect puppy to live in a crate most of the day coming out only to potty and for short play sessions? ANY good breeder will have temperament at the top of their 'breeding for' list. NO good breeder will breed an animal with a less than stellar temperament... and while we usually only intimately know the bitch's temperament, all of us hear it when a stud dog is sharp.. or fearful... or on his tippytoes all the time in a crowd. Those dogs do get used, but that use should be with caution and awareness. Because the bitch's temperament is a huge influence, if you want a calm dog, look for a calm momma.. bred to a stud dog who has no rumors around his temperament. That piece for the puppy buyer is going to take being connected in some way to those who compete and ARE connected.. I know you asked about mentors, if you are a GRCA member the Breeders Ed committee hopes to set up something along those lines this year. IT's been tried before, dk if we can pull it off but perhaps. And because your breeder is far away if I remember right, don't discount an online mentor. You can still learn from someone online, perhaps not the hands on nuance but the mechanics.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Brody you were blessed to find the right puppy for you, not once but twice. I hope this pup continues to be just what you hoped for.

As I said, I've been matching pups and people for more than 40 yrs and pretty good at it. But I would still prefer to have the breeder (a good one!) pick the pup. All pups are precious, all of them will snuggle and most golden puppies are happy to follow you anywhere... well at least until a butterfly goes by.

I can size up a pup pretty good in about 20 minutes of watching how they interact but 20 minutes is nothing compared to the 8 weeks spent with the breeder. The breeder has watched how they mixed with the litter, how aggressively or pacifically they nursed. They know which puppy slept at night or who was a night owl. They have watched to see which pup figured out the potty training, getting their nails clipped and reacted to baths. They know which pup is pushy when he plays and which ones are loners. There is so much to learn about each puppy in those 2 months. They know the temperament of the parents and usually the grandparents. All well bred golden pups should have a good temperament but each will have their own personality traits. 

If you have taken months to find a reputable breeder why wouldn't you trust them to know you and the puppy.... and be the best judge of where the puppy will be the happiest? Most rookie owners will pick the rowdiest pup in the bunch because, well lets face it who doesn't love a rambunctious puppy? A novice owner will think this is a demon dog by the time it's 9 months old. But a seasoned owner loves this personality and by 9 months has this dog ready to compete in some venue. Puppies grow up quickly and the breeder knows what type of DOG you are going to have. This is very important. When the cute begins to wear off you will be glad the breeder picked.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

I got a five month old hellion.. Fun as all, the class clown in obedience training. We start canoe and river training soon. Stuart will wear you arm out retrieving, and loves the woods. I have to take him hiking daily to burn some of that energy off.


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## Brodys Rockies (Jan 8, 2019)

DanaRuns said:


> Well, Roger, far be it from me to rain on your and Brody's parade. I'm glad you found the right pup for you.


Dana, I appreciate the kindness in your response. At first, I was hesitant to offer my two cents on the topic. As I said, I do respect what you and other caring professional breeders do for the breed and future pet owners. 

I should mention that Brody came from a wonderful rescue service here in Colorado. I fully realize and accept the health risks we've taken by going with a rescue. After our wonderful experience with River, we decided to help a rescue pup get a forever loving home regardless of the risks involved. Some folks adopt senior dogs, dogs with health issues, and those dogs who are being rehomed for a list of reasons. We felt we could accomplish two steps by adopting a rescue pup while still getting a Golden. By taking this route, one thing is certain...Brody will be loved and well taken care of. 

Thank you again for being professional with your reply. If we had chosen to go with a professional breeder, I would have wanted to go with you simply by the professionalism to displayed in your reply to me. It spoke volumes about you as a person.:smile2:


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have debated posting to this thread LOL

I personally need to pick out my puppy. My choices never seem to be wrong.

That said, breeders should always have the final say in where their puppies go since they know them best. Luckily for me, my breeders have always seemed to agree with me.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Sharon, I think you are one of the exceptions that Dana mentioned in a previous post in this thread. You are an Obedience person and as such, you know loads more about puppies and temperaments and how they will be when they grow up than most people do. 

There seems to be a theme with some of these responses: Show/performance homes seem to be allowed to pick their own puppies more so than "pet" families, which I completely understand. Kate, Sharon, Dana's Obedience home - you can all be trusted to pick puppies based on more than just how they acted for a 30-minute time window at 6 or 7 weeks old. You are not making choices based on how cute they are or how sweet they seemed right before falling asleep in your arms after playing hard for two solid hours. You're looking at the little personality nuances and the temperament testing results that say "this puppy is drivey, confident, a natural retriever and I can give her/him a job". You know which puppies aren't going to have the traits that you want for your performance goals and which ones might not fit in as well others with your current dogs.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Sunrise said:


> I have debated posting to this thread LOL
> 
> I personally need to pick out my puppy. My choices never seem to be wrong.
> 
> That said, breeders should always have the final say in where their puppies go since they know them best. Luckily for me, my breeders have always seemed to agree with me.


I agree. I do like picking my own puppy. I visited, watched, listened to what the breeder had to say. I know some people don’t think it’s possible but I swear that my youngest one knew before I did that he was my boy. He definitely wasn’t the cutest in the litter. Or the biggest or smallest. He was the one that was right for me.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

For those who must choose their own puppy from a litter, I'm curious how you choose a particular litter, and whether that choice is as important.

To my mind, picking a puppy from a litter is like choosing what color you want your car to be. Choosing the litter is like choosing what model vehicle you buy. Seems like a lot of folks are much more concerned that they get to pick the color, and are not so concerned about whether they are getting a Smart Car or a pickup truck.

I dunno, that might be a really stupid analogy. Such are the limits of my cognitive abilities on a Saturday morning.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I get what you are saying. From my perspective, I think companion homes see the breed as the “make and model” and the breeder or litters as the “car lot”. So, I feel that most put the focus on the breed and then picking out a specific puppy, but the breeder/litters seem fairly interchangeable. Kind of like I want a 2015 Toyota Prius and there is one at Phoenix Toyota, one at CarMax and one at Big Tim’s Car Lot. I am going to make my decision on the little things (when it comes to cars) like location, price and availability. Sound familiar? 

That is certainly not the case that breeders or litters are interchangeable. Not all breeders are the same nor is every litter the same. For example, I would not feel comfortable placing a puppy in a high level obedience competitor’s home not because I don’t think my dogs could do it but because I am not comfortable with my knowledge of that game to confidently place one there. 

I am also not a breeder anyone is likely to be banging down the door of for a show prospect puppy. I am not well known, I don’t put handlers on my dogs, and I have American, European and blended lines which makes my dogs overall seem less consistent in style. Though, my American lines are very competitive dogs as I have owner handled to an AKC Championship, miniored out my first breeding bitch (would have finished if major reserves were major wins) and my current puppy from my breeding looks more competitive than her mom. *Squeeee, super excited about her*

But I digress, I think for companion homes there is just a lack of knowledge about just how different breeders or litters can be. As long as it is a Golden and hopefully all health certifications are in place, I just don’t think the minutiae that good breeders get down to with their goals and litter plans registers for companion buyers. 

Competition homes are different though.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> For those who must choose their own puppy from a litter, _I'm curious how you choose a particular litter, and whether that choice is as important._
> 
> To my mind, picking a puppy from a litter is like choosing what color you want your car to be. *Choosing the litter is like choosing what model vehicle you buy. Seems like a lot of folks are much more concerned that they get to pick the color, and are not so concerned about whether they are getting a Smart Car or a pickup truck.*


I think you're spot on with this. "Choosing the puppy" is taken to a whole different level when you have people who have been 'in' a specific breed and specialty/sport for decades. At that point people have a dream list of dogs they have been watching or have heard about for years. THey have been keeping their eyes open for their dream litter. That kind of research will give people more confidence in allowing their own instincts to guide them. They have put a TON of trust into the breeder's choice of parents for the litter to have top notch working ability AND temperament or they wouldn't be spending their money with them to begin with.

In general, a pet puppy purchase will be made when an owner has suffered the devastating loss of a pet. They may or may not have been in denial about losing their dog and most likely have absolutely no research put into purchasing a new puppy. If they are buying their first Golden they don't even begin to know what they don't know about the breed, how specialized the breed has become. 

The people who have more than a decade invested in a sport have learned that Goldens aren't just Toyotas, they are very much specialized models. Someone who has been competing with their dogs for decades will be keeping an open ear and eye out for the sire of their next puppy even if their fingers are crossed that they won't be able to buy a new puppy for 5 more years. Pet people aren't generally that pragmatic. They aren't going to events every week or every month where they are exposed to fantastic dogs who keep you open to the idea that there are some pretty awesome pedigrees out there.

The difference between the kind of people who actually have the experience and knowledge to want to 'pick' their next puppy is that most likely they have put so much effort into researching the pedigree, that a talented trainer could probably reach into the pen blind folded, pick a puppy and make that puppy a successful competitor. That kind of buyer has probably watched the sire work at whatever his specialty is, or has people they trust evaluate him, talked to the sire's owner on multiple occasions and probably knows other people personally who own relatives of the either the sire or the dam or both. The networking makes a huge difference. 

Generally, when you get to that level, you aren't buying a puppy from a breeder unless you have a TON of respect for that person and their dogs and probably a personal relationship. A breeder who you have a built rapport with would most likely let you know in advance that one or two puppies would be better suited for a pet home or she has her eye on one or two that she thinks would be a dream dog with the right trainer. Then she lets you take it from there. If you have the nerve to walk into a breeder's home and ask for the top performance prospect puppy without any input, then you better be able to back it up. That means that even if it wasn't who she thought is the 'star' (most likely there are multiple puppies who could be 'stars' with the right trainer) then you 'd better be able to step up and train that puppy to be able to excel.

I am 100% a believer in having my breeder (who I trust completely) picking my puppy. I'm asking for a nice middle of the road puppy who will live happily with a family, after that the field training and obedience training are for fun. Maybe in years to come I'll feel differently personally. I would think that picking a puppy for performance would be like picking a conformation pup: If you think you know more than the breeder, go for it


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> For those who must choose their own puppy from a litter, I'm curious how you choose a particular litter, and whether that choice is as important.


Of course.

In my case I selected the breeder and the mom of the litter in more than one way for my baby boy. Such a huge deal because boy puppies seem to take after their moms the most. 

It's something that gives me a chuckle sometimes when you have people buying puppies who have very famous stud for dads and everyone forgets what contribution the mom made. A lot of the time, you look at the expressions of these puppies and many look like their moms. <= I think I told Sharon this as well with some of her Towhee's pups. Her Towhee has had a lot of very nice puppies.

With my Jojo - he's completely like his mom. And I'm happy about that because this was a very sweet little girl who is everything a golden should be. Very soft and squishy. Very fluffy. :smile2:

His breeder says she sees Bertie all over and again with Jojo, but I see a lot of his mom in there. 

^^^ This is picking litters. 

But even picking breeders, there are considerations there too!

Was talking with somebody who had a big playing field as far as which direction to go for their first show puppy. 

And while the outside perspective of show dogs is that they all look the same... 

The fact is that there are very unique looks out there. You can tell where the pup came from - which breeder, which lines.

Some lines develop much differently than others - and it's up to you to decide what exactly you like in what's out there. 

With my older boy - I did expect a certain look. And I got that. He's the spitting image of his great-grandfather.... :laugh: But the same time, he looks a LOT like both sides of his family. There's a certain look and type. Even when you have breeders bringing in other lines and slightly changing what they breed. 

If you are looking for a pet and will take whatever you can get.... probably have not considered all of the above things. You just want a golden retriever. But then, if you are like that - probably don't have to fuss too much when picking puppies either.



ETA - I just bought a new car btw. I had color preferences, but sticker price, make (no foreign cars!), age of car, style of car (I wanted a lower to the ground SUV) and mileage + test driving to see if the car "fit well" and drove smoothly mattered more than color. 

^^^ I wanted a white or gold car, but got a black one. Hate the color black for cars, might add.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I think it depends truly. I do have decades of experience. 



As an example: One breeder contacted my obedience mentor and thus I learned of the litter and in particular my Faelan. I described him to a T (sight unseen) and literally did not look at any of the other puppies -- the others simply weren't the one. However, in the contract she specified he had to get at least 1 Hunt Test or Field title --- definitely not an interest of mine and I ended up having a pro finish his JH -- we earned his 1st 2 Qs together, but I really hated it (loved spending time with Faelan always though) ; but I gave my word to his breeder, and we agreed Faelan & I should switch to things I enjoyed after he earned that JH.


There is definitely something that is intangible and indescribable when you are looking at a litter with a pedigree that interests you and supports your goals & dreams. The certainty that is felt that the pup you are seeing is the one you will be bringing home -- sometimes seen as young as a week or 2, sometimes a 'surprise' based on puppy testing. Not all my dogs are great at my chosen sports which usually involves me in different sports that they can be wonderful at and that's okay, there is that intangible something that makes them perfect for me.


That said, Towhee & Brady were both returned to their breeder and found their way to me ... the breeder(s) knew I would be interested ... Also I am very fortunate that breeders in my area are open to my interest  



Oddly, while (to me) my dogs are all gorgeous, their looks are not a high ranking factor when choosing a pup .. as an example, when I had pick male for Faelan's litter I thought for sure I'd be coming home with the deep red boy (gorgeous coloring and he was the naughtiest), Aedan is the lightest of the litter I think. He does not have Faelan's beautiful headpiece like several of the boys have, has a somewhat rangy build but he's my boy and I love him for other qualities. If I had described what I was looking for and the breeder took me at my word, I would have ended up with a different dog -- although his breeder knows me well and nodded and smiled with agreement when I picked up Aedan, agreeing he was the best match.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I think it is a totally different thing to consult w an experienced competitor on which puppy is best for them-not the same thing for pet people at all. I think most pet people go on cosmetics, and that tiny 30 minutes they spent w puppy.. whereas a serious competitor gets into the dog they take home and needs one that they can see playing the game they enjoy themselves (or in Sharon's case one they don't enjoy too!).. it's just not the same decision making process as someone who wants a good pet.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Not all breeders are the same nor is every litter the same. For example, I would not feel comfortable placing a puppy in a high level obedience competitor’s home not because I don’t think my dogs could do it but because I am not comfortable with my knowledge of that game to confidently place one there.


I was hesitant to add to this point, because I *do* feel that people need to work with the dogs they own vs trying to look for a magic poton in a pedigree before trying anything. I also think that people sticking to different sandboxes are not good for the breed.

High level obedience competitors NEVER look at show breeders for a puppy. 

Show breeders would not even go to blended pedigrees for the next show prospect. 

For both, I might add - you would not have them even looking at a litter unless both parents are titled and pedigree is high octane fully loaded.

With obedience competitors (talking people getting OTCH's) - Even the ones who like conformation/style, they look to breeders known to produce working dogs. In this case, it would be Mirasol type lines where the titles are behind the dogs, if not actually on the dogs. 

You have new up and coming breeders who are trying new things and breeding to show champions, but even there they are looking for proven working dogs to use like those owned (using GRF members as examples!) by Anney... or dogs like Tito or Parker. Tito's been around a long time (happy birthday good boy!) and that's a lot of time for his babies to prove themselves and do a lot of good advertisement for him. But I think we are still a long way off before more and more show people and obedience people look to a moderate middle for their next dogs. 

More and more obedience people have ties to field - and that's a very hard thing to get past when looking for their next dogs. They don't want moderate dogs...

Speaking personally, I don't 100% know what I think about some blended pedigrees out there. I've seen puppies where I like the dads but I don't know about the moms? And I have no idea how the pups will turn out. If the moms are narrow and very straight in front, have no bone, coats aren't that good, etc... that's a very difficult thing for me to look past. Because again, pups will pick up genes from both parents. And with the conformation ring so competitive, you want the dogs to be typey? It's a big gamble if you are the type to bring dogs home for keeps no matter how they turn out.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I am friends with the breeder mine came from. With Winx, I loved her attitude. Still do. She is a special girl. Loves agility and field. She’s a cutie. Pilot and I just kind of clicked. He’s very sweet and very smart. Very biddable. He wants to do anything I want to do. Grew up to be gorgeous.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Funny, we were looking at breeding our grand champion show dog to Finn.


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## mwadle001 (Mar 10, 2010)

i super appreciate this post. We have had three goldens and all have been picked for us by their breeder(s). We are lucky and live in an area with an excellent GR club so 15 years ago when we were looking for a puppy to be our companion and pet, we were able to turn to them for guidance. they connected us with a breeder who told us that she would pick our pup for us. It worked out! For the next two pups that we have taken into our home/family, as I looked for breeders, this was the kind of breeder I wanted, for the purposes that Dana talks about. I had the opportunity to visit the litters of my last two pups and never did I have a sense of the puppies from an hour visit, even if I got to visit multiple times. However, the breeder knew those puppies and got to know them and observed them. My job was to honestly communicate to my breeder, what kind of family and home environment I could provide one of her pups so that she could pick out the best fit. It has worked great!. I have had really positive experiences from it and am grateful for the knowledge and the wisdom of the breeder(s) I have worked with.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

It's funny - I actually feel like having my breeder choose my puppy is selfish on my part. I selfishly want the BEST puppy for me. I want this, this, this and this in a puppy. I have chosen my breeder based on what he or she is trying to produce, the parents, etc. so I know the chances of the breeder having the right puppy for me are better than 50-50 going in. Chances are, I have communicated extensively with him or her and they know what I am looking for. So for sure I want them to choose based on what they observe in the first eight weeks. And I would never go with a breeder whom I didn't trust 100% to make that right choice. 

Plus, I'd be really disappointed if I chose - and wound up with a total couch potato with low confidence and no drive to learn and perform. :smile2:


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

Brodys Rockies said:


> I guess I have a different opinion on this, but that's me. I'm not a breeder though I respect and appreciate what responsible breeders do for their dogs/pups and pet future pet owners.
> 
> I'm certainly not a couch potato, nor do I want a lazy dog that is one either. I have made a few thread responses about our pup picking us. Let me explain in a bit more detail...Our first Golden was from a family breeder who had bred her female two times only. The last two times we have selected a pup, my wife was unable to be with me due to scheduling conflicts, but this last time she was on facetime to see all the pups and give her input to what she observed.
> 
> ...


What a lovely story. I believe there's validity in both points of view. You obviously felt your connection on a deeper level, intuitively, and you obviously were right and chose the right puppy. You are meant to be together. And I bet if the breeder chose, she/he would have ended up making the same choice. But I suppose it doesn't always work out this way and someone may misread a puppy and so working with the breeder and trusting they will choose for you based on what you are looking for and your personality is important. Both your boys are beautiful by the way. So happy for you and your family that you brought another amazing golden into your life.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

The breeder picked my last puppy, a 1st for me. Funny when she called and said she had a pup I didn't ask any questions... other than telling me it was a female (sex didn't matter, nor did color) the only thing I knew was the pedigree. When I arrived there were 2 pups, it only took me a few minutes to know which one I wanted but never said a thing... just observed. These pups were 4 months old and my 5 minute assessment was so inferior to her 16 weeks, the decision was up to her.
They were both gorgeous, identical in size and energy level. My older girl was having a great time chasing and playing with them both. 
As I sat there cuddling with one of the pups... all stretched out, head laying back on my shoulder giving me little kisses on my neck, getting a belly rub is when she told me this was the pup she wanted me to take. I don't know if she saw a connection or if this was the one she intended for me to have all along but couldn't have asked for a better fit into my life. Because I knew my breeder has titles on both ends of the name I knew obedience was possible, along with several other venues I want to learn about. But I'm not a hard core... looking for an OTCH person, just want to enjoy activities with my girls. At my age I'm a competitively deficient kind of senior and enjoy the process more than the points.
Note to breeder: LOL if this wasn't the pup you planned on me taking I'm really grateful you changed your mind! Love my redhead!!


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

I feel compelled to chime in as a pet parent. After losing Callie in July and joining the forum shortly after, I have spent countless hours researching pedigrees and coming back to all of you more expert members to get your feedback on how to read and interpret k9 data and OFA clearances. And I am eternally grateful to all of you bc you helped me so much so I can choose the right breeder for me. I chose my breeder with whom I have a reservation with, based on researching her pedigrees and clearances for health and longevity and her overall philosophy in raising and breeding. I did not choose her based on looks or color. I am blessed though as she happens to be Callie's dad's original breeder, but not the breeder we got her from. I feel confident in her and have the bonus of knowing that Callie is related to her pups which feels good. She is amazing at what she does and is well respected in the breeder community having been breeding for decades. I didn't have any of this knowledge when I got Callie. I knew to look for a breeder and I looked for one who had a similar philosophy as mine, but knew nothing about k9 data or health clearances. I was lucky that she was breeding a sire and dam from well-known kennels and Callie had a good pedigree behind her ( I checked after after we lost her). However, it turns out that that breeder did not follow all the GRCA health clearance testing as she should have. Luckily Callie was mostly healthy. She was the perfect girl in every way. This time, I am going in with my eyes wide open.


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## farouche (Jul 26, 2018)

What someone said earlier -- that many golden owners are looking at puppies once every 15 or more years -- is really true. Our beloved Thor died in 2014 (he was 14). We were too heartbroken to look for another puppy for a long time. When we bought Thor, it was a combo breeder/us selection. I went in wanting a female simply b/c I'd always grown up with female goldens. The breeder said that based on the girls that were going to be available in the litter, she'd recommend one of the boys. We "chose" Thor but she had pre-selected 3 of the 5 boys as being suitable for us. He was the canine love of my life and I still miss him.

We got a new golden puppy in February. We got weekly photos of the puppies and visited them several times. But I truly would have had no idea how to choose one of the boys. They were all equally adorable and seeing them here and there isn't enough to really know them. We ended up with Mr. Orange, now Loki. Again, it was a combo/guided decision. We already love him dearly. He is smart and loves people.

Side story: I have a small photo of Thor in a frame on a table. The first week we had him, Loki discovered that photo and was fascinated by it. I held it for him to look at and he went perfectly still. He and Thor were nose to nose for about 10 seconds. It was a sweet moment.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

@Megora Your statement about OTCH people never going to show breeders really got me thinking... So naturally I went to K9 Data and did a prefix title search for CH OTCH dogs hoping to prove you wrong, and instead proved you right. With the exception of Beau-D I didn't find any American Champions that are also OTCH that are still alive today. Yogi was the next closest one. There were quite a few Canadian CH OTCH's though. Any idea why that is? 

The perception that conformation dogs have in the performance world just irks me to no end. Plenty of conformation dogs have the drive and confidence to excel at high level obedience, their owners just don't spend the time to do it. I love my conformation bred dog, and in the hands of a better trainer, I firmly believe that he could be just as good as any of the field/obedience bred dogs - at least in the obedience ring. He will hopefully have at least have one prefix title (RACH) to his name, even if it is easier to get than an OTCH. I fully plan on putting lots of Rally and Obedience titles on my next conformation puppy and if I'm lucky, she'll be a CH to boot. Which leads me back to the topic of this thread: My breeder knows that these are my goals and she knows which of her litters is the best match for me and she will know which puppy is the best match for me.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

My first puppy was a breeder's choice situation. The day I went to pick up my puppy the breeder put her in my arms and I held her as we filled out final paperwork. She was a little squirmy and I wasn't feeling a connection, but I trusted the breeder. After the paperwork was done I put the pup back in her pen to "say goodbye" to her Momma and litter mates and randomly picked up one of the other puppies. That puppy snuggled right into my neck and sighed. The breeder looked at me and said "she's another one I was considering for you." Care to guess which pup I took home? 

My second puppy I got from a friend's litter (experienced breeder who usually picks, but she was giving me first pick and let me make my own decision). Temps had been in the 90s for weeks and my friend was 8 months pregnant and didn't have AC, but she patiently waiting for hours (literally) as I worked my way through the litter of 13 puppies. By the time I had narrowed it down to two puppies the entire litter was passed out in puddles on the cool tile floor and my friend was beginning to lose her patience with me. Of the two puppies I was trying to decide between, one was by now sound asleep among his siblings, the other was still running around, getting on and under things, and generally getting into mischief and showing no signs of slowing down. I knew I wanted this puppy to be an agility dog, so... I went home with Mr. Energizer Bunny. A month or two later, at the peak of the land shark phase, I nearly took the puppy back to the breeder. When he turned two, we threw a party at agility class, thinking he'd miraculously "calm down" now that he was two (he did not). He was still competing in agility and had just earned a perfect 100 score in his first attempt at Excellent Rally when I lost him to lymphoma at three weeks past his 11th birthday. He never did "calm down." Owning, training, and loving him was a very steep learning curve and used all my patience, but he was also my heart dog and I miss him every day (he's the one in my avatar).

Third pup was chosen by the breeder and was described as "someone's dream dog." Somewhere along the way he developed dog reactivity, but aside from that, she was absolutely right and he turned out to be another heart dog for me.

Fourth pup was from my breeder friend again. She and I both wanted this particular female puppy. I didn't take as long to make up my mind this time and she agreed to let me have her. Although I love her and have enjoyed working with her, I don't have as strong a connection with her as I have had with my boys.

Given my experiences I tend to go with the folks that say, let the breeder choose the 2-3 puppies that they feel are a good match for the client... after that, let fate and instinct make the final decision...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> @Megora Your statement about OTCH people never going to show breeders really got me thinking... So naturally I went to K9 Data and did a prefix title search for CH OTCH dogs hoping to prove you wrong, and instead proved you right. With the exception of Beau-D I didn't find any American Champions that are also OTCH that are still alive today. Yogi was the next closest one. There were quite a few Canadian CH OTCH's though. Any idea why that is?


Canadian OTCH's are any dogs who have gotten UD's. 

The Canadian equivalent of the AKC OTCH is kinda the MOTCH? But kinda 1/2 the difficulty. You need to get at least a 190 in open and at least a 185 in Utility and at least one first place in either open or utility (no min score). And it's just 40 points that you are chasing.

There is a GRMOTCH title after the MOTCH - but it depends on you getting 195 scores in both Open and Utility at ten different trials and under 10 different judges. And you need a high in trial in both open and utility (doesn't have to be the same trial I guess).

For an AKC OTCH - you need to get 100 points and you have to get first place in Utility and Open under 3 different judges. <= This is really hard in very competitive areas of the country because typically the first 3-5 places at any trial are taken by people with OTCH pointed to infinity dogs (already OTCH titled) who regularly are fighting it out for the 199+ scores. And then points are earned based on number of people entered. So if numbers are low, good luck getting any points. 

Then! 

CKC Championships are much easier to get than AKC Championships. You need 10 points and then you need 1 major. I forgot how many dogs you have to beat in order to get a major, however a major can be something as little as a 2 point win (fewer dogs than a 3 point or 4 point win). I have heard of people getting CH's very quickly.

AKC Championships for goldens you have to get 15 points, of which 6 points need to come from 2 majors (3 point wins). So 9 points can come from single point wins (entry needs to at least be 2 dogs locally), but then people can sometimes end up getting stuck for a long time entering shows and hoping there's a major which as of this year is 18 dogs or 21 bitches. If your dog hasn't finished by the time he's an adult - means you are showing in the open class where majority of the entry might be competing directly against each other. If the entry is 20 dogs, of which 17 are in the open class? You hope the judge can see your dog in that huge class. If you enter a lot of shows that don't make the major or the major doesn't hold.... Politics being what it is, people are discouraged from showing a dog if he's single pointed out and is just chasing majors. This is why people talk about how expensive conformation showing is. It's also why with many of the popular breeds who have big entries - almost all the handlers are pros. It's not just them being very "visible" to the judges and presenting the dogs efficiently, they also travel much farther than most owner handlers are willing. Me personally, the furthest I've gone for showing has been northern/central OH (or 4 hours distance). Meanwhile, I've had people tell me to go down to Tennessee or other places to get that last major! Because majors down there are fewer dogs to compete against.

I've heard from people stopping at ringside to watch goldens show and they marvel at the entry size for the breed because it is the equivalent of the total entry at their breed nationals!  To give you an idea of how big this breed is - even with entries being lower than they were in the 2000's and prior. 

Anyway. 

I do think that the big reason why we don't have more Beau D's (GRCH, OTCH, MH+++++, etc) is because obedience people are hands on and very protective of their dogs. You do not typically have people sending their dogs out for months or even years for them to be finished and campaigned. I mean you literally have some obedience people quibbling about losing time when their dogs come in season. 

The other problem is performance people do not value championships. They think it's a beauty contest and are convinced that dogs only win by cheating and they are not as high quality as dogs who are working bred. Doesn't matter if a show bred dog is moderate, he's still too fat and too hairy. When performance bred dogs weigh anywhere between 50 pounds and 65 pounds, a dog who is breed standard size and weight may appear to be as heavy as 90 pounds no matter what he actually weighs. You had somebody on this forum say something hilarious like show bred goldens are too heavy coated and heavy to swim. They said that years ago and I still will never forget it! Especially when it turned out that his dogs were heavier than most show champions!!! :laugh:

Then might add - performance people are impressed with excess and flash. They want to strut into the ring and have a malinois or border collie quality performance from their dogs. Actual quiet and efficient workers are not exciting. Beau-D, for example, is described by competitors as a sleeper? You have the big flashy dogs who go out there and they put on the performance of their lives with feet flying all over the place and heads twisted around backwards practically? And then you have Beau-D who goes in and does his job quietly and cleanly and he wins a lot in obedience for that reason. You don't need excess flash to succeed - but a lot of people who go out of their way to get performance bred puppies from the biggest performance breeders - they want that excess.

My take fwiw is that I personally would love to get an OTCH on a dog - but I know all of the entries that go into that. And I'm somebody who has a dog who could be a CDX right now - but I have not been entering him in trials. I'm not even close to being one of those people that enters every single obedience trial possible and sits there hoping different top level dogs fail so I can get points! 

And my take on conformation is similar enough. I am not driven enough to get a CH on my dog that I would send him out with a handler to get the last major he needs to finish. I just think that would put him through too much stress (especially since he is very velcro and very much a mama's boy). If he doesn't finish this year, that will be it - and that's fine. I value the wins we got together more than I'd value the wins that somebody else got with him. 

My view point on both worlds is the reason why I understand why there are not more dogs who have achieved the highest accomplishments in both sports. I absolutely think we should value the dogs who do get odds and ends accomplished - among else, because doing anything at all and leaving that mark matters.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> @Megora Your statement about OTCH people never going to show breeders really got me thinking... So naturally I went to K9 Data and did a prefix title search for CH OTCH dogs hoping to prove you wrong, and instead proved you right. With the exception of Beau-D I didn't find any American Champions that are also OTCH that are still alive today. Yogi was the next closest one. There were quite a few Canadian CH OTCH's though. Any idea why that is?
> 
> The perception that conformation dogs have in the performance world just irks me to no end. Plenty of conformation dogs have the drive and confidence to excel at high level obedience, their owners just don't spend the time to do it. I love my conformation bred dog, and in the hands of a better trainer, I firmly believe that he could be just as good as any of the field/obedience bred dogs - at least in the obedience ring. He will hopefully have at least have one prefix title (RACH) to his name, even if it is easier to get than an OTCH. I fully plan on putting lots of Rally and Obedience titles on my next conformation puppy and if I'm lucky, she'll be a CH to boot. Which leads me back to the topic of this thread: My breeder knows that these are my goals and she knows which of her litters is the best match for me and she will know which puppy is the best match for me.


I went into this puppy process as wanting a therapy dog with zero plans of doing anything else. And my 8 month old comes from a line with a mom who has her Grand Champion, Rally, and Junior Hunt titles. Sweetest dog ever. And so calm. And it’s one of the thing I loved about her- around/versatile dog. Now her dad is confirmation but I have a feeling he would do well in other aspects. 

Somehow I ended up taking Rally with my puppy and she’s a little rockstar. She LOVES it. We just finished her first Rally class and are starting the second next month. No trials yet (because everyone I know keeps saying wait...she’s too young???) sometimes I feel like I’m the hindrance to her!! Her Rally trainer said, “she’s ready for Rally 2. I hope you’re taking it. Have you considered obedience?” So we are starting obedience next month also. I’m really attributing her interest and performance to her genes!!!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> Canadian OTCH's are any dogs who have gotten UD's.


Had no idea that the Canadian OTCH was just a UD! I had heard that their conformation was easier too, but didn't realize how much. I know how hard an AKC OTCH is to get because my trainer/mentor in Houston is working on her second and is having a hard time getting all of the points. I think she's got the wins, but entries are down so it's hard to get enough points. And they don't adjust the point schedule in Obedience for some reason, which I think is ridiculous since it got its roots from conformation anyway. 

Obedience people in other breeds don't give a crap that Rocket is conformation bred. They see past that and look at the dog in front of me and know that he is only limited by my training skills. LOL Anyway, I guess in my dreams I wish that more performance people would give conformation dogs a chance, because they are capable. I like the progress that people seem to be making by at least trying to get WCs and JHs on conformation dogs.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Jmcarp83 said:


> I went into this puppy process as wanting a therapy dog with zero plans of doing anything else. And my 8 month old comes from a line with a mom who has her Grand Champion, Rally, and Junior Hunt titles. Sweetest dog ever. And so calm. And it’s one of the thing I loved about her- around/versatile dog. Now her dad is confirmation but I have a feeling he would do well in other aspects.
> 
> Somehow I ended up taking Rally with my puppy and she’s a little rockstar. She LOVES it. We just finished her first Rally class and are starting the second next month. No trials yet (because everyone I know keeps saying wait...she’s too young???) sometimes I feel like I’m the hindrance to her!! Her Rally trainer said, “she’s ready for Rally 2. I hope you’re taking it. Have you considered obedience?” So we are starting obedience next month also. I’m really attributing her interest and performance to her genes!!!


Love this!!! Keep it up! Once you start trialing, you'll catch the fever. I absolutely love Rally and I know you and your girl will be able to meet whatever goals you might have!

If you search for RACH in the prefix titles on K9 Data, you'll find a dog that is less than 4 years old that already has his RACH and a bunch of other titles and is completely conformation bred. 

Personally, I think a lot of dogs can be ready for Rally Novice by a year old - some younger. Going off leash requires a little more maturity. BUT - this always depends on the dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Obedience people in other breeds don't give a crap that Rocket is conformation bred. They see past that and look at the dog in front of me and know that he is only limited by my training skills. LOL Anyway, I guess in my dreams I wish that more performance people would give conformation dogs a chance, because they are capable. I like the progress that people seem to be making by at least trying to get WCs and JHs on conformation dogs.


Heheh - even show bred goldens beat dogs of other breeds rather handily in obedience. That's why any goldens get a lot of respect from other breeds. It's just within goldens that you get a lot of politics about pedigrees and stuff. 

I wanted to kinda say one more thing because it's really important to keep in mind.

Any time you have somebody getting a single win as an owner handler in conformation - that is a very huge deal. And for a dog to be CH pointed or even major pointed, that's a huge deal. Because even with pros handling the dogs - this is a competitive breed. Very competitive. 

I've felt pretty down about getting dumped in huge rings sometimes - but then I look next to me and I see some of the biggest pros known for handling top dogs in this breed who also get dumped by the same judge right along with me. 

Showing conformation is a ton of fun - if you have the good luck to have a nice dog, time, and money to try it out and see what you can do. Any win is hard won in this breed - especially for owner handlers. 

Getting CD's on your dogs in obedience might be brushed aside by dorks who are valuing only top level titles or nothing, but these are titles which have a degree of difficulty that many people struggle to succeed at. A CD might only be 3 green ribbons for somebody else, but it's a typical statement that you spent 3 years working with your dog and it's something to be very proud of. And again, a CD means that even if you never get another title on that dog - that's something that's permanently on his record in AKC. 

Even rally is getting pretty darn respectable with some of the higher level titles that are available. So don't let anyone brush off what you accomplish with your dogs. And look too far ahead of those first accomplishments in obedience or conformation or any other sport. 

Big reason why so many people get turned off by obedience is not just because of the difficulty, but it's people who have forgotten where they started out. They basically can get very stuck on themselves and very rude sometimes to others. 

And don't let any agility people try doing the holier than thou treatment. LOL. You have the same types of people in that sport too. :grin2:

So many puppies are placed in homes and are never registered in AKC and they never do much training beyond basic obedience. This means that they end up being completely invisible to anyone else but their owners. Even doing CGC and dock jumping titles doesn't have the same effect because any accomplishments go on the AKC record, but they are still pretty invisible. Dogs who achieve any competitive titles like in rally or obedience - these dogs won't be invisible. I had a good chuckle the last time I was looking for a job and I had prospective employers asking me about dog shows - because looking up my name anywhere brings up my dogs records. And likewise, looking up my dogs names brings up their records.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

The only criticism I've gotten from non-Golden Obedience people is that Goldens in general have terrible hindquarter awareness, which I find to be completely true. LOL 

Thanks Kate, @Megora. Your words are encouraging - especially regarding Rally, since that is what I heavily compete in. Some of the Master exercises are no joke, but some people still look down on Rally as being an inferior sport. It's not easy to be really really really good at it - not that I am, yet. ;-) 

I hope my next puppy is nice enough to show in conformation and obedience/rally. She is from a pretty cool outcross (3.5 weeks old now), so we will see. If she is nice enough for conformation, she will be my first "show" dog. Thankfully there are some good people here in Columbus that can help me learn conformation handling and better grooming. I wouldn't send her out with a handler unless someone else was paying for it. LOL 

A CD is next on my list after we finish Rocket's RACH. Maybe a CDX after that. His dumbbells came in this weekend. I think I've decided on plastic because he likes the wooden one too much. --> basically just wants to destroy it because he likes chewing on wood and paper. :-|


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Comment removed.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> Jmcarp83 said:
> 
> 
> > I went into this puppy process as wanting a therapy dog with zero plans of doing anything else. And my 8 month old comes from a line with a mom who has her Grand Champion, Rally, and Junior Hunt titles. Sweetest dog ever. And so calm. And it’s one of the thing I loved about her- around/versatile dog. Now her dad is confirmation but I have a feeling he would do well in other aspects.
> ...


I plan to keep it up. She really enjoys it. She’s keyed in totally with every excercise. There’s an AKC rally event May 7 (the day before I head to Europe for 2.5 weeks) 2 miles from my house I’m debating registering for. She’ll be 10 months to the day. Will it look bad if we do it and we end up with a non-qualifying score? At this point, we’ll already have 4 out of 7 weeks done in our Rally 2 class. So it’d be a novice course. My biggest thing this past weekend was in training I mistakenly gave her a piece of jerky and she wouldn’t stand/heel until she finished chewing. Too polite of a dang puppy sometimes lol. And I know in Rally we can’t do treats in competition. Normally I’m not even giving them to her but instructor is like “give them!” She’s a sensitive stomach, so I try to limit. 

We are in training for CGC. Last week she was a rockstar. Tonight she just was not having the calmly greet a stranger with another dog/ignoring the dog. And last week she was 100% cool with it. I’m chalking it up to 8 months old and the puppucino I stupidly gave her due to her “I know we are at Starbucks so bring it out!” Face.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Jmcarp83 said:


> I plan to keep it up. She really enjoys it. She’s keyed in totally with every excercise. There’s an AKC rally event May 7 (the day before I head to Europe for 2.5 weeks) 2 miles from my house I’m debating registering for. She’ll be 10 months to the day. Will it look bad if we do it and we end up with a non-qualifying score? At this point, we’ll already have 4 out of 7 weeks done in our Rally 2 class. So it’d be a novice course. My biggest thing this past weekend was in training I mistakenly gave her a piece of jerky and she wouldn’t stand/heel until she finished chewing. Too polite of a dang puppy sometimes lol. And I know in Rally we can’t do treats in competition. Normally I’m not even giving them to her but instructor is like “give them!” She’s a sensitive stomach, so I try to limit.
> 
> We are in training for CGC. Last week she was a rockstar. Tonight she just was not having the calmly greet a stranger with another dog/ignoring the dog. And last week she was 100% cool with it. I’m chalking it up to 8 months old and the puppucino I stupidly gave her due to her “I know we are at Starbucks so bring it out!” Face.


If she can walk nicely on a leash, she will get a qualifying score. Judges primarily look for loose leashes in Novice and a lot of the signs are related to heeling. 

There is nothing wrong with getting an NQ in your first trial (or any trial for that matter - at least you got out there and tried to do something fun with your dog)! No one will judge you - or at least they shouldn't because they were in Novice once too! If you decide to enter, study the signs, download the Pocket Rally app, take a deep breath before you go in the ring, and mostly importantly: have fun! 

I like to use Zuke's Mini Salmon treats for Rocket, should be friendly to her stomach. Rocket also loves blueberries, and they are a dog friendly human treat (good for their brains too).


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> Jmcarp83 said:
> 
> 
> > I plan to keep it up. She really enjoys it. She’s keyed in totally with every excercise. There’s an AKC rally event May 7 (the day before I head to Europe for 2.5 weeks) 2 miles from my house I’m debating registering for. She’ll be 10 months to the day. Will it look bad if we do it and we end up with a non-qualifying score? At this point, we’ll already have 4 out of 7 weeks done in our Rally 2 class. So it’d be a novice course. My biggest thing this past weekend was in training I mistakenly gave her a piece of jerky and she wouldn’t stand/heel until she finished chewing. Too polite of a dang puppy sometimes lol. And I know in Rally we can’t do treats in competition. Normally I’m not even giving them to her but instructor is like “give them!” She’s a sensitive stomach, so I try to limit.
> ...


Thanks for the advice. Downloaded the app (how no one in Rally class mentioned this prior blows my mind!). Will be registering for her first trial this weekend.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> @Megora Your statement about OTCH people never going to show breeders really got me thinking... So naturally I went to K9 Data and did a prefix title search for CH OTCH dogs hoping to prove you wrong, and instead proved you right. With the exception of Beau-D I didn't find any American Champions that are also OTCH that are still alive today. Yogi was the next closest one. There were quite a few Canadian CH OTCH's though. Any idea why that is?
> 
> The perception that conformation dogs have in the performance world just irks me to no end. Plenty of conformation dogs have the drive and confidence to excel at high level obedience, their owners just don't spend the time to do it. I love my conformation bred dog, and in the hands of a better trainer, I firmly believe that he could be just as good as any of the field/obedience bred dogs - at least in the obedience ring. He will hopefully have at least have one prefix title (RACH) to his name, even if it is easier to get than an OTCH. I fully plan on putting lots of Rally and Obedience titles on my next conformation puppy and if I'm lucky, she'll be a CH to boot. Which leads me back to the topic of this thread: My breeder knows that these are my goals and she knows which of her litters is the best match for me and she will know which puppy is the best match for me.



As I was reading, I was thinking what about Beau-D! LOL Winx is a Beau-D pup. She's a great dog. I feel like Pilot has a lot of potential in obedience and he's a pretty boy. He's a Bally puppy. I agree about what you concentrate on.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

I've loved 2 golden pups - I let the breeder pick for me - both times. Finn's liter was 8 - so I looked at the other pups, but ultimately went with the breeder's suggestion - he charmed me, but I also trusted what the breeder assessed about conformation and personality. She shows and also trains in hunt test training. Both times I went to a breeder who had parents with the traits I was looking for in a pup, so I assumed that they knew those pups much better than I did after 8 weeks. I just shared with the breeder what I hoped to do with the pup. 

Obedience is my first love, but I've also come to appreciate the beauty in the breed - I would do conformation if my dog had the right stuff. My children have also expressed interest in doing agility once the pup is old enough.

I love the versatility of the breed. Dad has a VCX and mom has earned a VC (close to a VCX). 
Through the miracle of modern breeding , I have a son of Beau-D's grandsire, Skye. He is intelligent, super-athletic, and I find him handsome. I cannot wait to play multiple dog-sports with him!


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

Just one more note in case anyone is still reading this thread...Beau-D is amazing (relative on Finn's dad's side),but so is Carbide (relative on mom's side): https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=384848. Really impressive dogs and owner-accomplishments!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Rion05 said:


> Just one more note in case anyone is still reading this thread...Beau-D is amazing (relative on Finn's dad's side),but so is Carbide (relative on mom's side): https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=384848. Really impressive dogs and owner-accomplishments!


I think all the Fisher pups are awesome.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I guess I missed Carbide in my search. My bad everyone! There are TWO living CH OTCH's out there, assuming K9 Data is correct.  

I like the Fisher pups too. Moderate, correct, versatile: just great working dogs. 
@Rion05 Finn is just precious. I creeped his K9 Data page. What a cutie!


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> I guess I missed Carbide in my search. My bad everyone! There are TWO living CH OTCH's out there, assuming K9 Data is correct.
> 
> I like the Fisher pups too. Moderate, correct, versatile: just great working dogs.
> 
> @Rion05 Finn is just precious. I creeped his K9 Data page. What a cutie!


Gosh, Carbide has so many titles, it may mess up a k9data search! :laugh: Actually, Finn's co-breeder is Carbide's breeder, so I'm not sure I would have known about him myself, otherwise! Never a Dull Moment, indeed!

Beau-D and Carbide both have the "Yogi connection," plus some Morninglo and Colabaugh dogs in the mix. Interesting to see what's behind these impressive dogs. Talented and dedicated owner-trainers, for sure!

Thanks for your comment about Finn. I love the multipupose breedings - goldens can be well put together and still have tons of drive! He's a super-athletic pup. We are training in obedience (I really see it as the foundation for everything else) and attending some conformation classes (really seeing how he grows to decide what we might be able to do). 

Your dog is lovely. Would love to see the breeding (big fan of k9data!) 

Watching the NOC on AKC TV this weekend...golden, golden, golden, border collie, and so on. Some really nice looking goldens in there too and some with SOOOO much personality and enthusiasm!

I am in awe of what some of these goldens can do - SUCH a cool breed!!!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Rion05 said:


> Gosh, Carbide has so many titles, it may mess up a k9data search! :laugh: Actually, Finn's co-breeder is Carbide's breeder, so I'm not sure I would have known about him myself, otherwise! Never a Dull Moment, indeed!
> 
> Beau-D and Carbide both have the "Yogi connection," plus some Morninglo and Colabaugh dogs in the mix. Interesting to see what's behind these impressive dogs. Talented and dedicated owner-trainers, for sure!
> 
> ...


Thank you! Here is Rocket's pedigree: Pedigree: Arkgold Rocket BN RE 
And here is the pedigree of my puppy (just turned 4 weeks old, so still at the breeder): Pedigree: Eve x Berkley 
We have some high hopes for her!

I tried to watch as much of the RNC and NOC as I could. I felt that Goldens were a little underrepresented in the RNC, but some would probably say they were over-represented at the NOC. LOL Wanted to catch some of Bridget's runs, but missed them all. It was interesting watching all of the different handling styles and signals.


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## laurenC (Sep 20, 2017)

I understand your position i absolutely do, just dont understand the aggression behind it. Like breeders, buyers want whats best for themselves and their puppies. When placing puppies we need to keep in mind this is one of their main events of their life---their family member, it is a new child it is a huge deal for them. I absolutely agree they will love their puppy in the end but to just say "trust me, i got this " really isnt fair either. Communication to your buyer is crucial for them to understand the process and feel comfortable. As a breeder and a fancier in general you may have 10 dogs come in and out of your home in 10 years... some rehomed, etc. this puppy will be their one dog in 10 years...its a huge deal. It's a very different perspective coming from a pet home. I understand your point, i do i just went through it with 12 puppies last week but compassion and understanding of the gravity of this especially for pet people is key. THere are two different sides feel both are very valid and warranted.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

laurenC said:


> I understand your position i absolutely do, just dont understand the aggression behind it. Like breeders, buyers want whats best for themselves and their puppies. When placing puppies we need to keep in mind this is one of their main events of their life---their family member, it is a new child it is a huge deal for them. I absolutely agree they will love their puppy in the end but to just say "trust me, i got this " really isnt fair either. Communication to your buyer is crucial for them to understand the process and feel comfortable. As a breeder and a fancier in general you may have 10 dogs come in and out of your home in 10 years... some rehomed, etc. this puppy will be their one dog in 10 years...its a huge deal. It's a very different perspective coming from a pet home. I understand your point, i do i just went through it with 12 puppies last week but compassion and understanding of the gravity of this especially for pet people is key. THere are two different sides feel both are very valid and warranted.


Not sure who had aggression on this topic- but you make the point FOR the breeders who choose puppies for people in your post- breeders do have 10 dogs in 10 years, and pet people do have only 1. Which of these two is better qualified to judge a puppy's temperament and fit in a social group? As long as the pet people tell the truth about their life and how dog will live, that is...


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

laurenC said:


> I understand your position i absolutely do, just dont understand the aggression behind it. Like breeders, buyers want whats best for themselves and their puppies. When placing puppies we need to keep in mind this is one of their main events of their life---their family member, it is a new child it is a huge deal for them. I absolutely agree they will love their puppy in the end but to just say "trust me, i got this " really isnt fair either. Communication to your buyer is crucial for them to understand the process and feel comfortable. As a breeder and a fancier in general you may have 10 dogs come in and out of your home in 10 years... some rehomed, etc. this puppy will be their one dog in 10 years...its a huge deal. It's a very different perspective coming from a pet home. I understand your point, i do i just went through it with 12 puppies last week but compassion and understanding of the gravity of this especially for pet people is key. THere are two different sides feel both are very valid and warranted.


Agression??? Me??? Are you talking about me? If so, the reason you don't understand the aggression is because there isn't any. I just reread my posts, and can't see anything like that.

Besides, the main point of this thread was that picking the right litter is far more important than picking a particular puppy from that litter, yet those who are so adamant about picking their pup in a litter seem to think any litter at all is fine.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I try to work with show homes to make 10000 percent sure they are confident in the pup, and I don't take any deposit from a show home ahead of evaluation days. We work together to evaluate the puppy, and I don't want anyone to feel they "must" take a show puppy. I learned this from Jenn Craig at Harborview, and I think it is best when a show home is head over heels for a puppy, and there is always a pet forever home waiting. For pet homes, I do tell them I will pick their puppy, but I also tune into the ones they especially like when they visit etc and try to make a match when possible. For pet homes, I take deposits once the four week mark comes and goes safely, and try to give plenty of time to take sure a potential home loves the puppies and I love the potential home. 

Some families of dog are very biddable and versatile , while being show lines. While they do have less octane than loaded working pedigrees, they are highly, highly cooperative team players. I like that kind of golden. You will see that attentive, caring temperament hallmarking the pedigree. In that case, you will have a throughline of temperament that gives some leeway to pet people having input on which puppy once the show picks are placed , bc it makes them feel more invested. 

Here is a show bred golden from one of my favorite programs in Eagle Idaho Tamarack: BISS GCHB CH Tamarack Doin' What Comes Natur'lly UD, RA, AX, AXJ, WC, VCX, OBHF . This family of dogs is so highly cooperative , they are just fun to work with in many venues . I chose a puppy from there bc I needed a dog who could teach many dog training classes with me daily, and do weekly therapy work, be a family pet dog, and I also wanted a top show prospect all in one package. Every puppy in the litter and sequel litter is like that, and there was high similarity of abilities throughout.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

ArkansasGold said:


> Thank you! Here is Rocket's pedigree: Pedigree: Arkgold Rocket BN RE
> And here is the pedigree of my puppy (just turned 4 weeks old, so still at the breeder): Pedigree: Eve x Berkley
> We have some high hopes for her!
> 
> I tried to watch as much of the RNC and NOC as I could. I felt that Goldens were a little underrepresented in the RNC, but some would probably say they were over-represented at the NOC. LOL Wanted to catch some of Bridget's runs, but missed them all. It was interesting watching all of the different handling styles and signals.


Rocket sounds like a really neat dog! Best of luck with the pup - how exciting!

Really interesting to hear different perspectives here. Appreciate learning from others and both sides of the discussion have made me think.

I would like make one small point: to those fortunate enough to own multiple, multiple goldens...do not assume that owners that only have a dog or two are "less interested" or "less dedicated" to the breed or to their dogs (I'm not suggesting any one poster said this, btw, but I think this may be part of the disconnect between perspectives). Some individuals or families simply may have different considerations (time, money, family needs, health, etc.) that they know currently limit their ability to take care of 4-10 dogs well. They may be 1000% devoted and interested in that one dog that they have, and just as interested in goldens as someone fortunate enough to be able to own more goldens. 

Again, appreciate all of the perspectives here!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> I try to work with show homes to make 10000 percent sure they are confident in the pup, and I don't take any deposit from a show home ahead of evaluation days. We work together to evaluate the puppy, and I don't want anyone to feel they "must" take a show puppy. I learned this from Jenn Craig at Harborview, and I think it is best when a show home is head over heels for a puppy, and there is always a pet forever home waiting. For pet homes, I do tell them I will pick their puppy, but I also tune into the ones they especially like when they visit etc and try to make a match when possible. For pet homes, I take deposits once the four week mark comes and goes safely, and try to give plenty of time to take sure a potential home loves the puppies and I love the potential home.
> 
> Some families of dog are very biddable and versatile , while being show lines. While they do have less octane than loaded working pedigrees, they are highly, highly cooperative team players. I like that kind of golden. You will see that attentive, caring temperament hallmarking the pedigree. In that case, you will have a throughline of temperament that gives some leeway to pet people having input on which puppy once the show picks are placed , bc it makes them feel more invested.
> 
> Here is a show bred golden from one of my favorite programs in Eagle Idaho Tamarack: BISS GCHB CH Tamarack Doin' What Comes Natur'lly UD, RA, AX, AXJ, WC, VCX, OBHF . This family of dogs is so highly cooperative , they are just fun to work with in many venues . I chose a puppy from there bc I needed a dog who could teach many dog training classes with me daily, and do weekly therapy work, be a family pet dog, and I also wanted a top show prospect all in one package. Every puppy in the litter and sequel litter is like that, and there was high similarity of abilities throughout.



I just want to say I love the description of "highly cooperative team player." I am adding that to my list of descriptors for my next "what I want in my dog" list!


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## laurenC (Sep 20, 2017)

"I never understand why puppy buyers will buy a puppy from any breeder they can find with a litter available, but then get all butt-hurt if they can't pick their own puppy from the litter. To me, it's like, "Oh, any litter in the whole world is fine, they're all the same to me, but I'm super particular about which puppy I get from that randomly selected litter. I did it before, and the puppy chose me, and it was wonderful."

First off, the puppy didn't choose you, and didn't instantly bond with you. 8-week old puppies don't have that capacity. You've anthropomorphized the situation."

none of this sounds warm and fuzzy it sounds condescending and rude. people have different feelings on the matter no one is right. i dont describe someone as 'butt hurt' say they will buy from 'any litter available' and then go on about their feeling in an over dramatized rude way and then claim to be respectful. so lets get the BS off the table. nothing about the thread was sugary sweet. 
i just believe that both sides deserve the same respect. no i didnt make the point for the breeder being more informed because they have had 10 puppies in 10 years....my point is that a breeders needs and wants from a puppy and goals are different than a pet person so naturally their selection and feeling on the selection is different. lets not be condescending and rude to those picking up their lifelong family member or discount their VERY valid feelings.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Picking puppies. Some would like to think it's oh so simple. (It isn't.)

For some I know it's hard to grasp the idea that money alone can't buy everything. There are some things that require more than just money. A good Hobby Breeder doesn't just want a home for each puppy. The want the right home for each puppy. The typical puppy buyer will have maybe an hour if they're lucky with the litter before the pups are ready to venture out into the world. How do you make an informed sound decision selecting a pup with only 60 minutes of experience with the litter? Well, in reality you can't, you simply don't possess enough experience with the litter. If you try, you're just taking a shot in the dark and hoping for the best. That by the way is not making a sound informed decision. 

When a litter is eight weeks old and ready to go to their new homes it has been roughly 1380 hours since they exited their mothers birth canal and entered the world. The breeder has been with them the entire time. The breeder has known them and been with them for 1380 hours, you've known them for maybe 60 minutes. The breeders experience with them during this period puts them in a far better position to make a sound decision about where each pup should go and why. 

To the puppy buyers out there, the Breeder doesn't give a crap about your feelings. The Breeders primary concern is for the best interests of the litter, and getting each pup into an appropriate home suited for that particular puppy. 

If you're a buyer that thinks cash is king and having a fist full of dollars gives you the right to choose your own puppy. I hope you aren't too terribly disappointed when you're shown the door without a puppy in hand.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> .... The Breeder's primary concern is for the best interests of the litter, and getting each pup into an appropriate home suited for that particular puppy.....


Here is what defines ethics in a breeder. It's why I try to remember to tell puppy shoppers on this forum that they need to remember they are shopping for a breeder in the beginning, not a puppy. Hopefully you'll have a lifelong relationship and support for the puppy from your breeder. Finding a breeder who you can relate to comfortably is important. We all have different levels of need and if a breeder isn't 'warm and fuzzy' enough for you, it's probably a sign that you should keep looking until you find a breeder who is. Personally I want a breeder who will put those puppies best interests first no matter what.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Sweet Girl said:


> I just want to say I love the description of "highly cooperative team player." I am adding that to my list of descriptors for my next "what I want in my dog" list!



And, just to add, I've been very lucky that I have asked for and had that quality in both my dogs - I just haven't had this fabulous way of describing it. :smile2:


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Concisely, the take away from this thread is to please stay in your lane. Veering into a lane in which you have little/limited experience/knowledge *may* lead to a unmitigated disaster.


Edit: Just to add - if you don't want to stay in your lane and *must* pick your puppy, there are literally thousands of dogs and puppies that want to be picked as badly as you want to pick one. If your argument then is, "I want a thoughtfully bred Golden puppy by an experienced breeder," then it follows that you would also want a thoughtfully chosen puppy, picked especially for your circumstances by a person with that exact expertise. Just to clarify, if it was unclear, that person of expertise, in the significant majority of circumstances (read: that is PROBABLY you) for people wanting a pet, would be the breeder.


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## Soda Springs (May 14, 2019)

Hi, I just bought a golden Retriever puppy to be my stud dog. I am not happy with his look. His head seems small, his back is very long in my opinion. Shoulder height 11" back, shoulder blades to tail base is 13". He is 9 wks old. His parents are beautiful, yet this guy is not. I did not get to choose this pup. She chose for me at 3 wks old. Puppy came from 3 states away.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Breeders selling dogs to somebody out of state looking for a stud dog with no interest or specifics about how the dog will be raised/bred.... probably have many issues going on. 

Other side of the coin, btw.... nobody with future interests in breeding dogs or doing "stuff" (competing in higher level obedience, agility, etc) would ever consider purchasing a puppy online without sufficient ability to have some input in picking their puppy. 

Because there are so many people out there looking to make money off breeding dogs, especially producing mutts for $$$ regardless of how many mutts are filling shelters.... legit breeders have to be protective and cautious. This includes not selling any dogs with full registration to anybody they do not know. Because people purchasing dogs to breed mutts don't care about registration, this also means some breeders are more cautious about selling pups to just anyone.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I've been in Goldens for 40+ years and actually DO something w my dogs. I think, given that you aren't going to show him, are just going to use him to cover all your girls, he is a pretty cute BYB looking pup. It's not like anyone who is truly a good breeder, who makes CHs and who is involved in the community is going to sell an unknown who is going to breed their dog only. It could have been worse. And what difference does it make to someone who's just going to breed him to poodles or doodles or whatever comes along next for $$.... all that sort of breeder cares about is something to make sperm. That sort of buyer isn't a 'show home' or anyone deserving of special choosing consideration really. No one involved in the breed would choose @ 3 weeks. There IS no 'breed type' to preserve in the mixed zoo.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Soda Springs... help me understand something, just want to make sure I'm understanding your post. You purchased a puppy to be used as a stud dog for your puppy selling business from someone 3 states away? 

I'm just guessing as you never mentioned pedigree or clearances that there are no OFA clearances on the sire/dam of this pup.
So you purchased a puppy from untested parents to make mixed breed dogs for profit and your beef is you didn't pick your puppy?

I'm sorry but you should be ashamed, what you are doing is a disservice to both breeds. Go to your local shelter and see how many mixed breeds are put down daily because of your type of business. The least you could do is make sure you sell healthy puppies and a trip to the vet will not cut it. JMHO but do it right or don't do it at all.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Soda Springs said:


> Hi, I just bought a golden Retriever puppy to be my stud dog. I am not happy with his look. His head seems small, his back is very long in my opinion. Shoulder height 11" back, shoulder blades to tail base is 13". He is 9 wks old. His parents are beautiful, yet this guy is not. I did not get to choose this pup. She chose for me at 3 wks old. Puppy came from 3 states away.



Q.E.D.


Setting aside everything else about this post, it clearly proves the point that everyone has been making: find a good breeder and the rest will follow, find a bad breeder and live with the consequences. Choosing at three weeks old? I would say to the poster: your puppy's "look" is probably the least of your problems.


Poor little dog.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Boy this post hit me wrong today!

I didn't get to pick my puppy. It had all the clearances. I knew I wanted to train to compete in field trials and the breeder picked for me at 8 weeks old. When I went to pick him up he seemed perfect. I've had some major health obstacles to try and overcome with him. I got a phone call yesterday that someone else that received a healthy puppy from the same litter may not be able to keep it. It's to high strung, isn't easy to train...... (they are now 13 months old) 

Now that's a phone call that makes you ask questions!! I love our guy and look at our dogs as part of the family. I will take whatever is thrown at me, but it still makes you question things.

If you bought a puppy that was picked for you under the circumstances I think you did, you have much more to worry about then his looks.

With all that said I hope for the puppies sake he is healthy and loved.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I picked Bear (my golden retriever mix) from a photo on petfinder. I spent a few hours with his litter 2 weeks before he came home with me and the foster home kept asking if I was sure I wanted THAT one cause he was the ONLY puppy who wanted nothing to do with me. And I kept watching him and saying yes, he's perfect. The day we went to get him, he was at the front of the pen and he started jumping up as soon as I walked in. I like to think he knew we were meant for each other. It's a complete romanticization with a helping of anthromorphization. And Bear was perfect. 10/10 personality 7/10 trainability/behavior 2/10 health (hello double knee replacement @ 1 year old + Auto Immune Disorder @ 2 years old + malignant and aggressive cancer @ 4 years old + DOD 4 years old)

I also picked Gypsy. She is a nightmare. Anxious. Insecure. Somehow both Hyper and lazy. Possessive. Shuts down in a blink. Soft. <<<< If I were to do it again, I would run away from here. I love her to pieces but she is more work than I want. She has literal temper tantrums when Lana goes to class. But when she goes to class she shakes and shuts down. So it's frustrating from a owner/handler perspective. 

Our breeder picked Lana. After 8 weeks of photos and updates and multiple visits; I had fallen in love with EVERY SINGLE puppy. Lana was the pink collared puppy and she was the ONLY puppy I hadn't put on my personal list of favorites. BUT I picked my breeder cause I fell in love with her bitch, Smooch, way back when Bear was a tot at the first SoCal GRF meet up. And her current bitch, Roxy (my Lana's mama) called to me (there I go making it all mystical and stuff). I gave my breeder a list of traits I wanted/aim for and a list of goals I have. I am NOT a performance home. I have NEVER titled a dog (Bear only has a CGC but he passed before we went to trail for Rally). But I wanted a dog that would excel at performance venues. And she picked Lana. There was about 30 seconds of disappointment cause pink girl wasn't on my list of favorites, but I swear to god she put that baby in my arms and I was a goner. My heart was packed up and nestled safely in Lana's soul before we left the breeders house. 

And boy did our breeder deliver on our list. 

Lana will be a year old in a couple weeks and she is the perfect fit for our family. She is smart. She has energy but she can relax too. She loves people but can respect when we don't want greetings (to a degree, there are some people she will flip us off for trying to prevent like my close family, our vet, our trainer, etc --- but I know that will temper as she matures). She walks so nicely! She LOVES water. She's confident. I know it's silly but she is also hella gorgeous. I don't know if we'll be serious enough to get a RACH (oh boy can a girl dream though, maybe if we live long enough we can get a RACH) But I want to put as many titles on Lana as I can cause it's about the experience and learning. Idk if we'll succeed cause we're not 'serious' people. But I know that I have a better chance of titling Lana than I did Bear. And I'm glad I left that trust in the breeder's hands. Cause she honest to goodness gave me the perfect dog (yes, even when she counter surfs to eat the cat food or gets into the trash can after egg shells when I took 2 minutes to put something in another room). 

I think I am a better owner for having my breeder (and the connections I've made over the past 6 years) in my corner. I have friends who are serious dog people and trainers and vets and they all rally around Lana and I for ANYTHING (just like they did with Bear and I). That is important, imo. And part of that comes from picking a breeder that will be on the same level of involvement as you are/want them to be. 

Dang it now I want to be home so I can pet Lana and tell her all the sweet nothing I've been writing about her.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

And so the lesson comes full circle. Picking your breeder is far more important than picking your puppy.

Thanks for proving my point, Soda Springs.


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