# Submissive playing?



## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

Sorry in advance for the long post—Beckett is just over 4 months old now. He has met a handful of my friend’s dogs, as well as a number of puppy classmates. I’ve noticed he is always rolling onto his back while playing with other dogs—is this OK? I’m confused as to what constitutes submissive/unhappy play vs okay play rolling. Since Beckett is usually the smaller one, he will try to grab anything on the other dog and then _voluntarily_ roll onto his back, essentially inviting the other dog on top. With the exception of puppy class, all of my friends dogs that he has played with have been decently larger than B, so once he’s on his back it’s so easy for the other dogs to keep him there. There have been times where a friend or I has to call the other dog off of Beckett because they essentially are laying on top of him, but Beckett ALWAYS bounces right back up—it doesn’t seem like he minds being stuck, but I don’t think it should be a regular thing? If Beckett wasn’t rolling onto his back before the other dogs really react, I would guess they are trying to correct B and tell him what he’s doing is rude, but it really seems like he is initiating the role as if he enjoys being stuck??

It’s been a question that’s been weighing on the back of my mind lately until today. We were at an outdoor mall and a lady let go of her 6 month old golden’s leash and they started playing before I could process what was happening. I was trying to untangle the leashes because I wasn’t going to let go of B’s, and all of a sudden I couldn’t even see Beckett because he was stuck under this other dog. The lady did nothing to stop her dog and when he got up, for the first time ever I saw that Beckett’s tail was tucked in - it is always wagging when he is upside down while playing. I tried to pull Beckett away but after the other dog got off of him, he popped right back up as if nothing was wrong. They played a bit more while I continued to try to get them untangled and Beckett and the other dog both seemed to be having a good time.

I know that the best thing with unknown dogs is to avoid play because you don’t know what the other dog is like, but I’m curious what, if anything, I should be doing with Beckett when he is playing with dogs that we are friends with. Is his rolling over a submissive move or just for play? How can I tell the difference between them before it gets to the point where he’s uncomfortable (like tonight)? Should I be stopping play before he starts rolling over?

edit to add: he has also rolled over in puppy class with an Australian shepherd puppy who was 1 month older, but a tad smaller than B. Beckett was on his back and the Aussie just stood over him for about 5-10 seconds. There was no instigating incident before that, and they resumed play as soon as the Aussie was called off by the teacher.


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## Dunmar (Apr 15, 2020)

I believe he is being submissive and appropriate introduction to other dogs may help.
I have a very submissive female who crawls to other dogs with her tail tucked to meet them, sometimes piddles while doing so. Once they sniff, she is fine and she always instigates the introduction. It is so weird to see her go crawling with her tail tucked to a Yorkie. Lol
Your pup is young and trying to say hey, im not a threat.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I just mentioned in another thread about a couple play sessions in puppy class that were carefully watched by the trainer. Rukie was also happy being the bottom dog and when the trainer called the top dog off Rukie would jump up and initiate play again immediately and willingly be the bottom dog again. The trainer thought it was fine if he willingly chose that role and appeared to be having fun and wanting more


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

When Logan recently played with a Lab his age, they played hard for about 20 minutes or so. When Logan decided he wanted to stop running all around and playing, the Lab started barking at him wanting him to continue. Logan rolled over on his side and all around like a bear. He wasn't paying much attention to the demand barking. I didn't think anything about it other than he was taking a break. When he was ready to play again, he got back up, grabbed a stick and initiated play again.

I just try to read what's going on in each situation. His tail tucked in sounds submissive/unsure. If he is not enjoying what is going on, I'd break it up.


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## goldielynn (Sep 5, 2020)

If you're unsure of what's going on, I think you should at least intervene and reset. Windsor is great at playing with all dogs and being the oldest and biggest of his litter, he is a very confident pup. He also always adapts to the other dog's style of play. For small dogs, he does a polite bow and will be much more calm. For senior dogs, he's aware not to be too hyper and will roll on his back as well. But sometimes when he plays with the large breed puppies (all are now around his size or a little bigger), they love to rough house and wrestle. Most of the time, it's great for him and the other dog parents (all of whom we know and he knows all these puppies already too), but sometimes, it gets a little intense and me or the other dog parents will intervene just for a 5 second reset/stop play saying hey, this is getting too much -- take a breath and you can go at it again.


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## Coastal Pup (Jan 30, 2021)

Dunmar said:


> I believe he is being submissive and appropriate introduction to other dogs may help.
> I have a very submissive female who crawls to other dogs with her tail tucked to meet them, sometimes piddles while doing so. Once they sniff, she is fine and she always instigates the introduction. It is so weird to see her go crawling with her tail tucked to a Yorkie. Lol
> Your pup is young and trying to say hey, im not a threat.


a Yorkie! Lol that must be a funny sight to see. I guess I had always thought rolling on your back meant that the dog was basically ready to tap out - which is why I was surprised to see him jump back for more. I did just read the other night that it’s a way of expressing they are not a threat like you said. Thanks for letting me know - definitely need to get myself up to par on dog body language. 



cwag said:


> I just mentioned in another thread about a couple play sessions in puppy class that were carefully watched by the trainer. Rukie was also happy being the bottom dog and when the trainer called the top dog off Rukie would jump up and initiate play again immediately and willingly be the bottom dog again. The trainer thought it was fine if he willingly chose that role and appeared to be having fun and wanting more


Thank you for mentioning this. It seems like Beckett plays similar to Rukie, and is ready to play again as soon as the other dog is off! not sure I’d love being squished by every dog I meet, but I’m glad that Beckett and Rukie are OK with it!



diane0905 said:


> When Logan recently played with a Lab his age, they played hard for about 20 minutes or so. When Logan decided he wanted to stop running all around and playing, the Lab started barking at him wanting him to continue. Logan rolled over on his side and all around like a bear. He wasn't paying much attention to the demand barking. I didn't think anything about it other than he was taking a break. When he was ready to play again, he got back up, grabbed a stick and initiated play again.
> 
> I just try to read what's going on in each situation. His tail tucked in sounds submissive/unsure. If he is not enjoying what is going on, I'd break it up.


good idea, thank you! Usually the other dogs don‘t fully cover B to the point where I can’t see him, and because he’s so ready to jump back into it, I hadn’t been too concerned until this new dog. Had I seen his tucked tail sooner, I would have made the lady call her dog off or pull him off myself. I’ll definitely be more assertive about other dogs coming up to play in the future, and make a note to break things up sooner if things start getting questionable.



goldielynn said:


> If you're unsure of what's going on, I think you should at least intervene and reset. Windsor is great at playing with all dogs and being the oldest and biggest of his litter, he is a very confident pup. He also always adapts to the other dog's style of play. For small dogs, he does a polite bow and will be much more calm. For senior dogs, he's aware not to be too hyper and will roll on his back as well. But sometimes when he plays with the large breed puppies (all are now around his size or a little bigger), they love to rough house and wrestle. Most of the time, it's great for him and the other dog parents (all of whom we know and he knows all these puppies already too), but sometimes, it gets a little intense and me or the other dog parents will intervene just for a 5 second reset/stop play saying hey, this is getting too much -- take a breath and you can go at it again.


I think a reset is a good idea, thanks! That’s great that Windsor can adapt so well to other aged/sized dogs! I’m realizing that most dogs B has played with have been bigger than him with the exception of puppy class-definitely easy for things to get a little crazy. A reset is a good way to check that everyone’s still doing ok.


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