# Preventative/Screening Sonograms for the Seniors?



## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

A good thought Anne. Would they be really cost prohibitive??? Since Barkley's collapse it's also got me thinking of taking that doggie first aid/CPR class and also insurance.


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

I'll be interested in hearing others' thoughts on this. We lost Jake to hemangiosarcoma in December, 2008. After he died I talked to the emergency vet about if we had missed signs, and also if doing scans or xrays could help with early detection. I was very upset at the time so probably didn't get the answer quite right, but I believe they didn't think doing periodic scans would help because by the time a tumor was seen the cancer would be advanced. 

It still seems worthwhile to me, even if the cancer is advanced it would still be earlier. By the time Jake collapsed from internal bleeding, he had tumors in the spleen and liver which were very advanced.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm not sure which way I go on this.
Older goldens tend to have a lot of benign masses in their spleens and livers. These would be picked up on a sonogram, and then you might end up doing a totally unnecessary, expensive, and very major surgery. Remember 50% of all splenic masses are benign, and over 50% of all liver masses.
So I really don't know.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

NapaValleyGolden said:


> I'll be interested in hearing others' thoughts on this. We lost Jake to hemangiosarcoma in December, 2008. After he died I talked to the emergency vet about if we had missed signs, and also if doing scans or xrays could help with early detection. I was very upset at the time so probably didn't get the answer quite right, but I believe they didn't think doing periodic scans would help because by the time a tumor was seen the cancer would be advanced.
> 
> It still seems worthwhile to me, even if the cancer is advanced it would still be earlier. By the time Jake collapsed from internal bleeding, he had tumors in the spleen and liver which were very advanced.


 
I'm sorry to hear you were also victims of the dreaded hemangiosarcoma. With our first golden the sonogram was also too late because his disease was so far spread and advanced. What I found interesting is some of the food manufacturers do this routinely in their trials for the dogs testing the foods. The fact the vet we discussed this with today wasn't discouraging us but actually encouraging it (assuming the money is there to cover it) made me think perhaps this could be the wave of the future. 

I'd really like to get all my dogs MRIs but it's just too expensive right now. My thought is as time goes on perhaps we will get more routine screening tests like sonograms introduced into the veterinary field as a part of an annual exam, if the owner can afford it of course. 

Regarding the costs, I just looked up what we were charged and it was expensive--$395, but it gave us a better indication Barkley's spleen needed to be removed immediately to prevent rupture and a bleed out and has bought us some more time with him. The veterinary practice we use is very expensive but they are very close by (less than a mile), open 7 days a week and have great veterinarians and staff and other amenities and I assume that's why it's a little higher than most. Surely other places may be cheaper. I can't remember exactly but I thought we paid about $1000 6 years ago for the sonogram. The x-rays and specialist review (done digitally) were $295.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I think it is something to look into if you could do this financially. At our vet, sonograms are $495. A board certified specialist travels to the hospital since our vet doesn't have the equipment.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

How much would this cost? Last time I had a dog ultrasound it was about $1000. I can't see spending that every year as a preventative measure. I do start requesting senior bloodwork to be done on my dogs before they are considered seniors and once they are seniors we check their blood every 6 months instead of once a year.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm not sure which way I go on this.
> Older goldens tend to have a lot of benign masses in their spleens and livers. These would be picked up on a sonogram, and then you might end up doing a totally unnecessary, expensive, and very major surgery. Remember 50% of all splenic masses are benign, and over 50% of all liver masses.
> So I really don't know.


You bring up a good point. I think they need to go hand in hand with lab work and clinical exams as well. For example if a dog had a sonogram with a benign mass in the spleen or liver and the blood work was perfect you might be more inclined to monitor more frequently, but if the bloodwork came back showing the dog was extremely anemic or had elevated liver enzymes you'd probably go through with a surgical option. MRIs would be much better because they can introduce the contrast fluid and see which ones light up indicating a suspected cancer. There too you might have a false positive. I wish these guys came with little indicator lights when something nasty was brewing inside.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

kgiff said:


> How much would this cost? Last time I had a dog ultrasound it was about $1000. I can't see spending that every year as a preventative measure. I do start requesting senior bloodwork to be done on my dogs before they are considered seniors and once they are seniors we check their blood every 6 months instead of once a year.


 
Barkley's last week was $395, and I think we paid $1000 6 years ago for our first golden's sonogram. The costs have been going down as more machines are available. I agree about the bloodwork being done every 6 months. They've noted it on my dogs' charts already and Toby has been getting it since he was much younger. He'll be 6 next week.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

CarolinaCasey said:


> I think it is something to look into if you could do this financially. At our vet, sonograms are $495. A board certified specialist travels to the hospital since our vet doesn't have the equipment.


 
That's what they are doing in most of the Dallas Fort Worth area now. I think that is great because more dogs get diagnosed so much sooner plus the specialist is right there doing it.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> A good thought Anne. Would they be really cost prohibitive??? Since Barkley's collapse it's also got me thinking of taking that doggie first aid/CPR class and also insurance.


Betty, maybe we should take a class together. Last time I checked REI has one periodically on Saturdays and so does Unleashed Indoor Dog Park. I have the book and DVD the Red Cross put out and it is fabulous, but there is nothing like hands on training. Last year I started to put together my doggie first aid kit but got sidetracked. That's back on the 2010 to do list too!


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Copper's ultrasound was prompted by a bogus liver test performed by my regular vet.
His liver was fine, but the ultrasound revealed 2 tumors on his spleen. the vet recommended a recheck in 6 - 8 weeks. The recheck revealed that the larger mass had grown significantly and they recommended a splenectomy at that time.

Copper was not showing any clinical signs of illness and that made it really hard to decide to go ahead with the surgery, but the vet told me that the tumor would continue to grow and ultimately rupture so it was best to do the surgery while he was still in good shape. she said that even a benign tumor would rupture and cause a massive bleed out which would reduce his chances.

The ultrasound cost $350 and the recheck was about $150 since they only had to check his spleen and the first time they checked his entire abdomen. As a bonus, they found a stomach tumor that had perforated the stomach wall and removed it at the same time. I have no doubt copper would not be here now if not for his surgery.

If I had the money, I'd get the ultrasound and recheck to see if the mass was growing. copper's blood test was fine - even his liver values were good upon retest. His first test was either done wrong or the machine had a problem.

I was totally unaware of hemangiosarcoma at that time even though I now believe that is what my last golden died from.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> If I had the money, I'd get the ultrasound and recheck to see if the mass was growing. copper's blood test was fine - even his liver values were good upon retest. His first test was either done wrong or the machine had a problem.QUOTE]
> 
> Wow, that is what frightens me about lab test results--the machines can mess up too often. Our vet is hand counting Barkley's hemocrit because they want to make sure they are accurate with their machine.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> If I had the money, I'd get the ultrasound and recheck to see if the mass was growing. copper's blood test was fine - even his liver values were good upon retest. His first test was either done wrong or the machine had a problem.QUOTE]
> 
> Wow, that is what frightens me about lab test results--the machines can mess up too often. Our vet is hand counting Barkley's hemocrit because they want to make sure they are accurate with their machine.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

My regular vet was the one that caused me to panic. Copper was scheduled for shoulder surgery and the blood test was to make sure he was okay for anesthesia.

They called me before I got home and said come get him and it is bad. 2 years before on that very same date they told me that about my last golden and he died in 6 days fomr supposed liver cancer......

I freaked out. The specialist scheduled his ultrasound 2 days later and did a retest on his blood values. It turns out that my regular vet did not get a "bad reading" for copper. His liver value showed "could not be determined". Bad blood draw, improper procedure or a problem with the machine to my way of thinking.

The rest is history - good history.:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

when my toby had the lump in his spleen, the specialists told us that ALL splenic masses in goldens and GSDs are removed if there is no evidence of metastasized cancer because of their high incidence of hemangiosarcoma.
So would you take a wait and see attitude? I don't think I could. I'd have the dog on the table that afternoon...which is what we did with my Toby. And it turned out to be a benign mass, about the size of a large marble.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just presenting the thoughts that are going thru my head. 
My seniors have a full blood panel and urinalysis twice a year, so I do try really hard to be proactive with their health. But I think the sonogram might be a case of too much information.
I had a really good article about splenic/liver masses, I'll see if I can find it and post the link, this was 3 years ago when we went thru it.




Dallas Gold said:


> You bring up a good point. I think they need to go hand in hand with lab work and clinical exams as well. For example if a dog had a sonogram with a benign mass in the spleen or liver and the blood work was perfect you might be more inclined to monitor more frequently, but if the bloodwork came back showing the dog was extremely anemic or had elevated liver enzymes you'd probably go through with a surgical option. MRIs would be much better because they can introduce the contrast fluid and see which ones light up indicating a suspected cancer. There too you might have a false positive. I wish these guys came with little indicator lights when something nasty was brewing inside.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

The specialist recommended I wait. she did not tell me about hemangiosarcoma and I did not know about it either. I doubt I would be so complacent now.

Once I joined the forum and read up on it, we scheduled the surgery immediately. In that case, ignorance was bliss.

I think that since an unnecessary ultrasound saved Copper's life, I am biased towards having them done. Next time we have to go to the specialist I will ask her thoughts on this too.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

the specialist told us that, in any dog other than a GSD or a golden, they would re-check in 4 weeks. But because of the breed, they did not recommend waiting.
I have really mixed feelings about the whole thing.
So I ask everyone, if they found a marble sized lump on your dog's spleen, what would you do?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> when my toby had the lump in his spleen, the specialists told us that ALL splenic masses in goldens and GSDs are removed if there is no evidence of metastasized cancer because of their high incidence of hemangiosarcoma.
> So would you take a wait and see attitude? I don't think I could. I'd have the dog on the table that afternoon...which is what we did with my Toby. And it turned out to be a benign mass, about the size of a large marble.
> I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just presenting the thoughts that are going thru my head.
> My seniors have a full blood panel and urinalysis twice a year, so I do try really hard to be proactive with their health. But I think the sonogram might be a case of too much information.
> I had a really good article about splenic/liver masses, I'll see if I can find it and post the link, this was 3 years ago when we went thru it.


Good food for thought and I don't think you are being argumentative, but presenting good ideas to think about. The sonogram very well may be too much information for most. The splenectomy is a major operation, very expensive and not without risks (bleeding, anesthesia) in itself. Whether to do a splenectomy on any mass in a spleen is a question I guess everyone has to make for themselves. I think DH and I are a little gun shy right now about dogs' spleens so the idea of doing a screening sonogram gave us a little hope and comfort we were being proactive. The very thought that even a benign spleen mass could grow and eventually rupture and cause a bleed out is scary. So I am confident if we did a screening sonogram on our Toby at his first senior exam that resulted in masses being seen we'd probably have him on the table as soon as we could, just like you did. As it turns out we got an answer last fall on him with his little doggie gas crisis and nothing was noted then. His first senior exam is a year away so we have time to think about this.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> The specialist recommended I wait. she did not tell me about hemangiosarcoma and I did not know about it either. I doubt I would be so complacent now.
> 
> Once I joined the forum and read up on it, we scheduled the surgery immediately. In that case, ignorance was bliss.
> 
> I think that since an unnecessary ultrasound saved Copper's life, I am biased towards having them done. Next time we have to go to the specialist I will ask her thoughts on this too.


I'm going to keep your experience in my mind as we mull this over ourselves. DH and I have been accused of being overly protective when it comes to our dogs, but our vets sure like us .


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> the specialist told us that, in any dog other than a GSD or a golden, they would re-check in 4 weeks. But because of the breed, they did not recommend waiting.
> I have really mixed feelings about the whole thing.
> So I ask everyone, if they found a marble sized lump on your dog's spleen, what would you do?


I'm 100% certain we'd have it removed, based on our experience with our first golden and now Barkley. BTW, I got Barkley's surgical report. His biggest tumor was measured at 7.34 cm x 5.93 cm. That definitely means his spleen needed removing.


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm not sure which way I go on this.
> Older goldens tend to have a lot of benign masses in their spleens and livers. These would be picked up on a sonogram, and then you might end up doing a totally unnecessary, expensive, and very major surgery. Remember 50% of all splenic masses are benign, and over 50% of all liver masses.
> So I really don't know.


 
I didn't know that they get a lot of spleen and liver masses. Perhaps that's why the doctor I spoke with didn't seem to think regular screening would be very effective.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I think copper's tumor's were about 1 - 1.5cm. At least initially.

I waited with him because I didn't know any better and I think now I would go ahead and schedule the splenectomy immediately. Knowing what I do now, I think I was extremely lucky that waiting two months (!!!!) was not a problem. I am rather surprised the specialist didn't seem more upset about his masses.

Copper did so well after his splenectomy that I may ba a little too complacent about that too, but I sure was worried at the time!

My last golden died after he seemed a little off and we went in for a blood test on a Monday. His liver values were bad and the X-ray showed a mass. My regular vet did not recommend an ultrasound or further treatment. He died 6 days later. I will always wonder if it was really liver cancer or hemangiosarcoma or just splenic masses.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Our last golden before Selka and Gunner, Sophie, died at age 14 from a ruptured tumor.
Selka will be 11 in March. He is due to have blood work done in May.. I have only been having it done once a year as he has been so healthy and Gunner is the one with so many health problems that have been so expensive.
I plan to ask our vet if their office has a sonogram and the cost. I really doubt if my husband is going to think it is necessary and also whether we would put an 11 yr old dog through surgery, I just don't know. I love my boys and want to keep them happy and healthy, I hate to base that decision on cost. It is a very difficult decision.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I think Copper may have very well been 11 when he had his splenectomy, but he is a rescue so I don't know his true age.
He is listed as 12 at my vet's.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Debles said:


> Our last golden before Selka and Gunner, Sophie, died at age 14 from a ruptured tumor.
> Selka will be 11 in March. He is due to have blood work done in May.. I have only been having it done once a year as he has been so healthy and Gunner is the one with so many health problems that have been so expensive.
> I plan to ask our vet if their office has a sonogram and the cost. I really doubt if my husband is going to think it is necessary and also whether we would put an 11 yr old dog through surgery, I just don't know. I love my boys and want to keep them happy and healthy, I hate to base that decision on cost. It is a very difficult decision.


No doubt, it is very expensive surgery and the decision is definitely a personal one, sometimes made with costs in the forefront. Making that decision based on a screening sonogram, instead of an actual emergency situation would be emotionally difficult if the costs were not within someone's means. Barkley's surgery decision was based on a true emergency and to be honest we didn't even think of the costs at the time we were so afraid we might lose him that day. We were both emotionally stressed and weren't thinking clearly. It's on our credit card now and our rainy day fund will be used to pay it. 

I just got Barkley's surgery report and it shocked me to see them list him as 12 years 7 months. I think of him as a lively 9 year old most days. Beau was 13 and a half when he went to surgery and if I remember correctly it was presented to us in terms of he needs this, you need to do it as a responsible owner. We were too late as it turns out because they just closed him up and he crossed the Bridge that day.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I lost Savanah to hemangiosarcoma less than 2 weeks after her senior check-up complete with blood work. They also felt her stomach area to check for masses. They couldn't feel anything. I was told everything came back normal and she was very healthy. She was gone 12 days later.

Chance will have a sonogram yearly, (starting this year), when he is 6 years old. If they find a mass, it will be taken out, no doubt. This type of cancer is so fast that any preventative measure that is available to me will be used.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

It's difficult to express a different view on this subject and not come across as a less than loving dog owner.

However, I don't believe that routine sonograms should be scheduled for asymptomatic dogs of any age. The medical community even advises against it for people. It's one thing to do a full blood panel work-up at appropriate intervals. It's quite another to pay major money and put a dog through the procedure to go looking for problems in an asymptomatic dog. 

We can provide the best in nutrition, exercise, appropriate vaccination protocols, check-ups etc. for our dogs and ourselves. But it's unrealistic to think we should routinely put dogs through sonograms, MRIs or anything similar. Even if something out of the range of "normal" is found from testing, it's often not a black or white answer what, if anything, should be done. Sometimes we really do have to let life take its course and see what develops. Then react appropriately. 

There are plenty examples of apparently healthy people who suddenly die a week after a well check-up at their internist's office. While tragic and baffling, it doesn't necessarily follow that we should all routinely undergo EKGs, stress tests, sonograms, etc. Illness and death do happen no matter how long we try to keep it at bay. 

People will never all be on the same page on this. We come to it with different personal experiences and beliefs.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The other issue is that hemangiosarcoma tumors can erupt spontaneously. If you do an ultrasound, there's nothing to say that there won't be a tumor there 3 months later, which can rupture quickly.
There truly are no easy answers. And I think I was trying to say what MyBentley said, the problem is it's not usually black and white.
If you saw a large (like DallasGold) tumor, of course you would immediately open the dog up and have it removed. But what about the case of a very small one? That's where I bump into the problem. Do you live every day in fear that it's growing and ready to rupture? do you remove it? or do you wish you had never known about it in the first place?
I don't know, I really don't. Just throwing out ideas for thought.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I lost my KayCee to cancer May 25, 2008. She was her usual self one day, sick the next morning, diagnosed with a mass later that morning, surgery done that afternoon and died as I held her in ICU just about 48 hours later.

Histopath reporct came back, GASATROINTESTIONAL STROMAL TUMOR. My vet had , who specilaizes in surgery, had never removed one of those from a dog before, and research told me they are very very rare, even in humans.

I don't know that a sonagram.ultrasound would detect things early enough, but it is possible. One thing I know forsure, every dog should have heart and lungs checked out at an early age for things like enlarged heart. My KayCee had an enlarged heart chamber that we didn't know about until had a chest X-ray at age almost 7. Until her death almost 2 years later, she was on a very low blood pressure tablet everyday (same one as hubby, only 1/4 tyhe stregth as hubby's.) and a baby asprin every other day.

As to price, I don't know if this will work or not, but I am going to try toto post a copy of the bill from my Hunter who spent a week in ICU with autoimmune hemolytic anmeia and liver damage (caught by sonagram) in Oct. 2003. My vet charged $%143 for the sonagram. It was due to that sonagram that the spots showed on Hunter's liver that appeared to be cancer. But after his death, ththe necropsy was done, liver sent off and results came back DRUG INDUCED NECROSIS OF THE LIVER aS i SAID i HOPE IT PRINTS, THE FULL BILL AND THE SECTION WITH THAT CHARGE BECAUSE THAT PRICE IS UNBELEAVLED FOR 6 1/2 YEARS AGO. mY VET DOES HAVE HIS OWN EQUIPMENT, AND READS THEM. oTHER VETS IN SMALL TOWNS AROUND HERE HAVE TO SEND ANIMALS TO MY VET FOR SONAGRAM, OR SEND THEM TO cORPUS 25 MILES AWAY.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm very conflicted on whether an ultrasound as routine screening is a good idea or not. Money is an issue for most people, but I've had bills that look like Sandra's above but that were well over $4,000 for 48 hours and happily paid them to keep a beloved dog alive. Hotel4dogs' point about many splenic and liver tumors being benign is a good one, and a large versus small tumor throws yet another monkey wrench into the discussion. Cody's ultrasound in 2001 cost $450, done as part of a workup for acute hepatitis. Finn's MRI was $950 in early 2007, and I can guarantee that I wouldn't do an MRI as a preventative diagnostic tool. I think I'm coming down on the side of no ultrasound as part of a senior workup, but everyone is welcome to do the best they can for their pup's health. I stopped counting when Cody hit $22,000, and that was four years before his death!!!!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Thanks everyone for your responses. I think DH and I are still in shock over the events of the last week. We want to do whatever we can to prevent our dogs (and us) from suffering and pain. I don't know what we will do but we have time to think it through this year for Toby.

Our poor dogs would need a sonogram every few months to catch these nasty tumors at early stages. Then you would go through the whole dilemma of what to do if something small was found, just like Hotel4Dogs went through. Barkley had a sonogram performed when he was 7 and when he was almost 10 and both times nothing was seen on the sonogram indicating something was wrong. Then 2 and 1/2 years later, a huge tumor is seen. My Bentley is right--there are examples of people going in for their annual physical and dying a few days later of an undiagnosed disease. Life is unpredictable. 

Maybe one day they can develop a simple way to give us all the security we want regarding internal changes...they'd probably win a Nobel Prize for it too. Until then I guess we will just need to be on alert for subtle changes in our dogs' demeanor, behavior and appearance and make sure they get periodic evaluations with their veterinarian. I know that if my veterinarian sugggests some sort of blood test, sonogram or x-ray to check something out I'm not going to hesitate to get it done.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

There is an early stages test for lymphoma, from what I hear. But I guess it's not a simple test, and can't be done as a screening. That's about all I know about it at this point, except that the University of Colorado is doing it. I think?
As an aside, my vet told me that even though hemangiosarcoma is very common in dogs, it's very rare in humans. For that reason, there's not a lot of funding for research. Most of the really big dollars for canine cancer research come from the human drug companies.

edit...here's the link, but this was 5 years ago. not sure what, if any, progress has been made

http://www.hpj.com/archives/2005/feb05/feb14/CSUveterinaryhospitaldevelo.CFM


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Don't know why I did not think of this last night when I was making that other post. During reoutine check my vet could feel one of KayCee's kidney's did not feel right--yet inaother potsition he coulodn't feel a problem He was afraid of a tumor and he did an ultra sound of her entire tummy. Turns ou her kidney wa malform--twice as thick as normla, but it worked perfect.

It was only like 6 months later that that softball size tumor was removed. It apparently had started on her appendix and completely engulfed the appendix and encilred the entire area where lare and small bowles joined,m the worst possible place for a tumor. It was not seen just ausch a short time before, nor felt. Sothese things can come on in a hurrry.

I think I said it was called a gastrointestional stromal tumor and I saw the ugly thing, the size of soft ball, but I had never flet it in her tummy even tho she slept on her back nest to me and I rubbed her tummy every night. But then I didn't not thinking of checking for something "inside" only lumps and bumps I could see or feel on outside.


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