# Slow to mature? (Competition)



## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

OK, for those of you who do competitive obedience, I've got a question. I've been wondering about the whole mental maturity thing with Goldens. 

What age do you most Goldens start competing? I was talking to a woman this past weekend at an agility show & go and she told me that her first GR was *FIVE* years old before she started getting serious about training her for competitive OB (the dog ended up with a UD and MACH2, but she said that she started out just in obedience and switched to agility b/c her dog was, to paraphrase, "too immature," for competitive obedience). This woman was running her other GR (400+ MACH points), who is three years old, and she said she wouldn't even consider trying to do obedience with her at the mental level that she is right now.

From what little research I've done online about GRs and OB, I've noticed that most don't really seem to start their OB careers until at least three or four. Is this normal? I don't know much about Goldens. I do know that one guy in my area has a very successful (multiple) OTCH GR and he didn't start trying to train him for competition until he was three years old.

Compared to my BC (who came out of the womb being serious about work), I find it interesting to learn about the differences in breeds. The biggest difference between Marlowe (my GR), and Monty (my BC), is that I've never had to compete with other dogs or people for Monty's attention...and that is my biggest hurdle with Marlowe.

For you obedience GR people, any thoughts or input will be appreciated.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Well..... Quiz is going to be four the end of this year and while we've been training with serious competitive intentions, I'm just now starting to seriously consider debuting him. We're doing a "fake trial" (not a match, it's run like a real trial, but won't count for anything... all the local obed clubs are competing against each other) in Nov. and based on how that goes, I'll consider his official debut in early 2008.

I think the fieldy Goldens take longer to mature than the conformation ones. Also, keep in mind, while they may not debut until 4-5 years old, that immaturity/drive/zest/spunk/sparkle, etc. is what will keep them happily competing in Utility when they're 8-9! 

-Stephanie


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Lilli is 4 today and in Jan 05 we did Rally obedience just to get some ring time she did get her title but I also entered her in Novice A just to see where we stood and what to work on. In Jan 07 I entered her in an ASCA Obedience trial she did get her CD but we were lacking on the turns. This Sept. we are going to go for her AKC CD. And yes we still have drive, zest, sparkle/ spunk but hopefully we will have a little more mature nature rofl...


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Maddie is 3 and a half years old right now. I don't see if she'll ever mature...maybe once she is old and gray in the face...

When people come to our house she gets all crazy and gets the wiggles. Very annoying to some people. Funny to me!!

Anyway...Maddie and I never thought we would do AKC obedience. I really can't help you on this one. I never knew there was such a thing as an ILP for dogs who are purebreds but aren't registered. I think if we started when she was 8-12 weeks old. She'd have her CD at 18 months or so. I'm not sure on the exact date. But, because I've never trained a dog to be "perfect" at attention,heeling, open exercises, and utility exercises. I really don't know if this will help....sorry if it doesn't.

I think your best bet will be to train from the beginning (if it's a puppy your talking about). Or if it isn't then find an AKC or UKC instructor around your area. Talk to them...talk to the man with the OTCh dog that's in your area. See what he thinks....maybe he can help you with your Golden!!

Good luck and remember to have fun!!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Thanks for your input, guys! I think the biggest problem is that I've gotten so accustomed to the Herding breeds (GSDs and BCs), that the GR temperament/personality is kinda throwing me off. I can't remember where, but Stephanie posted a comment recently about Goldens being masters of "fooling around." Marlowe seems to be such a goofball, sooo unlike my BC and GSD. 

Now, Monty, my Border Collie, is a really outgoing little NUT with a *HUGE* sense of humor (sometimes an evil sense of humor, LOL), and the people at dog class call him "Mr. Personality," b/c he's just one of those types of dogs. He LOVES people and has never met a stranger, although he can still be rude and insistent about soliciting kisses and pets from everyone (he's a real flirt). BUT when I ask him to start working he just totally gets into his zone. Monty is not that much older than Marlowe (Monty is a year and a half old; Marlowe is approximately a year old now, or just a little over), and Monty has always been that way, even as a baby puppy.

It's been a real struggle to get Marlowe's attention and I guess I am slowly realizing it's just his Golden nature. Although, when he is "On," he is REALLY, really ON. And when he's not...well, he's just totally spaced out, rolling around on the floor and play-bowing, etc. He was neutered Monday...so we'll see here pretty soon if that helps any.

It just seems to me that if Marlowe is any indication, Goldens take a LOAD of work in order to get "working attention" out of them when they are in social situations. Since I adopted Marlowe (six months ago), I've paid a lot more attention to the Goldens in class and at shows, and have been asking questions from their owners. All I can think at this point is that all those people out there training and competing with GRs must have TONS of patience!!! LOL!

Sorry to ramble on. Just sorting out my thoughts and trying to learn! Thanks for all your help!! :thanks:


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

Well...this thread makes me feel a little better. I have Jester enrolled in a Rally class and we are failing miserably! I say "we" because it is hard enough for me to read and understand the signs and then try to get my crazy 17 mo. old golden boy to actually do the tasks on the signs! It is embarrassing :doh: and I am glad there are only 2 classes left so we can be done with it! Maybe he is just too immature for this class. At least now I know what Rally is all about and maybe...just maybe...if he is mature enough at 4 or 5 years old, we will try again!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sit Happens said:


> It just seems to me that if Marlowe is any indication, Goldens take a LOAD of work in order to get "working attention" out of them when they are in social situations. Since I adopted Marlowe (six months ago), I've paid a lot more attention to the Goldens in class and at shows, and have been asking questions from their owners. All I can think at this point is that all those people out there training and competing with GRs must have TONS of patience!!! LOL!
> 
> Sorry to ramble on. Just sorting out my thoughts and trying to learn! Thanks for all your help!! :thanks:


Keep in mind also, that you started training Monty (I'm guessing) with competitive work in mind at a young age. That's what I did with Quiz. I started teaching him at 8 weeks old that I had the potential to be the best game in town no matter the surroundings. When I raise a competition puppy I do what I call "rules of engagement" which basically means with few exceptions, when we're out, he's either ON ME via tug games, or food, or me working him in general, or he's in a down-stay. I may periodically release him to go be social, but only for a few mins and then it's right back to me. I joke that when I train my dogs... that's the only time I'm self-centered and expect it to be all about me! : 

HE may never work like a Border Collie, but I bet you'll get more out of him than you think. There are also advantages to him NOT being a BC. In my experience, heaven help you if you accidentally teach the wrong idea to a BC..... good luck trying to change their mind! Goldens are a bit more forgiving in that respect.

Quiz is a big 'ol goofy NUT BALL! But he's learning how to channel all that spazzyness into a really solid work ethic. Actually, he's had the work ethic all along, it's just that he's never looked all "serious" when he was working. Typical Golden... "Ahhhh, I'm heeling.... the sun is shining.... the wind is in my fur.... birds are chirping.... it's a great day to be alive..." vs the BC who's more like "OK... left, left, left, right left...."


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Keep in mind also, that you started training Monty (I'm guessing) with competitive work in mind at a young age. That's what I did with Quiz. I started teaching him at 8 weeks old that I had the potential to be the best game in town no matter the surroundings. When I raise a competition puppy I do what I call "rules of engagement" which basically means with few exceptions, when we're out, he's either ON ME via tug games, or food, or me working him in general, or he's in a down-stay. I may periodically release him to go be social, but only for a few mins and then it's right back to me. I joke that when I train my dogs... that's the only time I'm self-centered and expect it to be all about me! :
> 
> HE may never work like a Border Collie, but I bet you'll get more out of him than you think. There are also advantages to him NOT being a BC. In my experience, heaven help you if you accidentally teach the wrong idea to a BC..... good luck trying to change their mind! Goldens are a bit more forgiving in that respect.
> 
> Quiz is a big 'ol goofy NUT BALL! But he's learning how to channel all that spazzyness into a really solid work ethic. Actually, he's had the work ethic all along, it's just that he's never looked all "serious" when he was working. Typical Golden... "Ahhhh, I'm heeling.... the sun is shining.... the wind is in my fur.... birds are chirping.... it's a great day to be alive..." vs the BC who's more like "OK... left, left, left, right left...."


Well, yes and no with Monty. I never limit my dogs' interaction with other people or dogs. I have raised him with the goal of competition in mind, but since I come from a mostly conformation background, I feel that dogs need to learn that other people/dogs are lots and lots of fun! So, regardless of what I plan to do with my individual dog, he/she learns that we are going to have a great big fun time, and if there are others involved it just makes for a bigger party!

Personally, I think BCs become very "self-absorbed" when they are working, whereas GRs get really "lost" in training (they tend to "bliss out" when they work, if that makes any sense!). This is just my very neophyte observation (and certainly not based on many dogs, so it's definitely not very scientific). BCs and GRs are almost polar opposites, even though they are both awesome working dogs in their own right. From what I have noticed with my own dogs, I've had to work a lot harder to keep Monty guessing what's coming next so he doesn't anticipate stuff...while Marlowe likes knowing what he has to do and won't try to think ahead of me. Monty is like "I KNOW what you are gonna ask, you dummy, so I'm gonna go ahead and do it!" On the other hand, Marlowe is like "I KNOW what you are going to ask, you dummy, so go ahead and ASK me to do it!"

Yes, BCs can be very hard to re-train. They always think they know better than you, LOL. I believe they think we are very stupid when we try to convince them that what they already know is "wrong," LOL. I have found, with the few things I've needed to re-train Monty, it's better to start over with a totally new approach than to try to just modify the current approach. The novelty of doing something new (even if it's just a NEW way of doing something they already knew), will impress them. They will think you are very clever if you can "trick" them into doing something they already know, but in a different fashion. Trust me, I've been laughed at by my own BC when he's realized he's been duped!

The following is a really cute quote that I have saved, and I can't remember it's exact source (but I do know it's from one of the obedience lists that I'm on):

_ "I adore Border Collies. But I find them the most complex dogs 
on earth. They make you think when you train. 
Goldens are a nice relief from this."_​ 
I am enjoying the learning experience. My dogs are my passion, and I am nuts about training. Marlowe has taught me so much already. I'm not sure if I mentioned it on this board or not, but I went to animal control on that fateful day to look at a (supposedly) brindle BC. (Brindle does occur in BCs, but it is very rare. And I hate that term, "rare.") It turned out that the dog in question was definitely brindle, but decidedly not a BC. As it were, I happened to find a very pretty, what I thought at first was a female, GR in the last pen on the very end row outside. You can guess what happened next. So, here I am. 
* And, of course, I am blaming it all on Jenna!!*​


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> HE may never work like a Border Collie, but I bet you'll get more out of him than you think.


This statement has really made me stop and question myself. I have always *expected* things from Monty, but I've been very *forgiving* with Marlowe. Because Marlowe was a rescue, and I will never know his background (probably, thankfully, as I'm sure he's a very indiscriminately bred GR), I have probably influenced his training subconsciously. 

Marlowe was so horribly backwards when I got him (not to mention snarky with other dogs), and so out of condition (he couldn't even run one lap around my back yard without gasping for air), that I've been very soft on him. I think if I "up" my expectations of him, that he might just step up to the plate and give me more. I'm going to try this! Thinking back, he's always offered a lot more when I have unintentionally "demanded" it from him, rather than when I was worrying whether he's going to do it or not. Thanks for the encouragement, Stephanie!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sit Happens said:


> Thinking back, he's always offered a lot more when I have unintentionally "demanded" it from him, rather than when I was worrying whether he's going to do it or not. Thanks for the encouragement, Stephanie!


Anytime! One of my very favorite things to do with dogs is to roll with the fact that they live in the moment! Yeah, I know past experiences can/will shape the dog and his behavior, but I really tend to not put too much weight in stuff like that. I just move on and see what I can do NOW, from TODAY FORWARD to help mold my lump of dog clay, no matter how imperfect, into a project I'm happy with.

When a client comes to one of my classes and wants to tell me all about how they think the dog was abused before they got him, I immediately cut them off:

Me: Are you abusing the dog now?
Them: No! Of course not!
Me: Good. Then let's move forward! 

Whatever exists in the dog's history may help explain why he is the way he is or why he does certain things, but I don't want to waste my energy compensating for the dog's past. I want to enhance his future! 

So.... go boldly forward and enjoy! 

-Stephanie


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Anytime! One of my very favorite things to do with dogs is to roll with the fact that they live in the moment! Yeah, I know past experiences can/will shape the dog and his behavior, but I really tend to not put too much weight in stuff like that. I just move on and see what I can do NOW, from TODAY FORWARD to help mold my lump of dog clay, no matter how imperfect, into a project I'm happy with.
> ...
> Whatever exists in the dog's history may help explain why he is the way he is or why he does certain things, but I don't want to waste my energy compensating for the dog's past. I want to enhance his future!
> 
> ...


What a great analogy!! I'm going to go forward with my little lumpa doggy clay! 

And FWIW, I certainly don't think Marlowe was abused...I think he simply didn't have any life experience _at all_ before I pulled him (which definitely qualifies as gross neglect, and to me would equate to "abuse" -- but not abuse in the sense that most people mean it). I believe that the first few months are absolutely *critical* and I know that I'm having to make up for a whole lot of lost time and lost opportunities with Marlowe. On top of THAT, I'm learning about a whole different breed -- and believe me, GRs are a world apart from GSDs and BCs, and definitely Salukis, LOL! At any rate, I'm enjoying it, even if it is very frustrating at times. 

Thanks again, Stephanie!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Blame it on me when he gets his OTCH


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Blame it on me when he gets his OTCH



Rest assured, you will take ALL the blame if that ever happens, LOL! "Jenna's magical Dorito recalls," LOL! :


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

LMAO! That little B---- did have a gorgeous recall! I remember watching the hound group at a big show with her off leash at my side, then heeling away with her. She and my Sally were also the only dogs to not break their stays one night at dog club when lightening hit the transformer and the lights went off... when we got flashlights out, my two were sitting. Oh well, too bad she gave me the finger in the ring.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> LMAO! That little B---- did have a gorgeous recall! I remember watching the hound group at a big show with her off leash at my side, then heeling away with her. She and my Sally were also the only dogs to not break their stays one night at dog club when lightening hit the transformer and the lights went off... when we got flashlights out, my two were sitting. Oh well, too bad she gave me the finger in the ring.


Two Novice legs on a Badsenji with a "kid" as a trainer/handler (no offense, but you were a kid back then, lol!), impresses the hell out of me. I can't speak for anyone else, but man...pretty big time stuff, in my book, for sure!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Pictures! I want pictures! And I want to know more about this Dorito Recall, too!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Okay you want to know?

I was 13 when I finally saved my pennies and dimes and got me a Bad-senji all my own! Well be ****** if that little butthead would NEVER come when called. So one morning I didn't feed her breakfast. I came home from school (8th grade) and went to the ball field. I turned her loose. I got out my DORITOS and experienced my first positive training experience. Nobody'd ever even told me you could use food to train a dog, or anything but force. Well it sure worked... from that day on, that dog never left my side, unless we were in the ring


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Now let me see if I have a photo somewhere of Sally and Starlet... Sally just died in 2006. She was 17... a little BYB miniature schnauzer. 

Here she is... looking for Star pix...

Sally's last Christmas...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Note the Bad Senji and Whippet magnets on the fridge behind me LOL


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I totally saw the fridge magnets!

I grew up with mini schnauzers, too... both poorly bred from (gasp!) pet stores! (They were my grandparents' dogs.) Heidi lived to be 16 and Kelly was 14 when she died.

Love your Dorito Recall story!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Now let me see if I have a photo somewhere of Sally and Starlet... Sally just died in 2006. She was 17... a little BYB miniature schnauzer.
> 
> Here she is... looking for Star pix...
> 
> Sally's last Christmas...



AAaawww...Jen, you never sent me that picture!! SHAME on you! It's ADORABLE!!!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It worked and you know the few times she thought twice about listening all I had to do was rustle a chip bag (I kept one in my purse LOL)


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> It worked and you know the few times she thought twice about listening all I had to do was rustle a chip bag (I kept one in my purse LOL)


I know that *I* would do a really frickin' nice recall if there was a Dorito involved!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Or a good bottle of wine


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## Goldendogx2 (Sep 2, 2007)

*Obedience*

Marlowe's Mom:

Here's my 2 cents. I'm just starting my second golden in obedience. Although my first one was adopted from a shelter at age 5 and I only got into obedience to "solve a problem" or perceived problem. Dog #1 is retired because he just didn't have the attention any more.

Dog #2 is approaching age 5 and just finished Novice. Although I, too only got him just short of two years ago.

I have a friend who got an OTCH on her first golden. She now has a puppy, and although she is training everything, she doesn't expect to start showing until about age 4.

So, I think there is something to letting some maturity set in so they can focus on the "still" work required in obedience.

Good luck!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Chrissy is 12, so I should be about ready for that CD


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I bet you good money I could go get a CD on Keira before her first birthday NO problem... if she was mine to train... if only...


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Goldendogx2 said:


> Marlowe's Mom:
> 
> Here's my 2 cents. I'm just starting my second golden in obedience. Although my first one was adopted from a shelter at age 5 and I only got into obedience to "solve a problem" or perceived problem. Dog #1 is retired because he just didn't have the attention any more.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post! This is really the kind of information I was looking for! 

Where are you located in SC? I am in northeast TN, near the NC/VA/KY borders. Who do you train with? Are you actively showing? I do a lot of conformation and I always make a point to watch the OB...maybe you will be at some of the same shows I am going to?


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## Goldendogx2 (Sep 2, 2007)

*Late reply*

Boy, have I been having trouble figuring out how to post to these boards.

Anyway, I train in the Greenville, SC area with Connie Cleveland.
Yes, I'm currently actively showing. I just finished up our CD and are working to enter Open events in November. Our current challenges are learning the drop on recall, but it is coming nicely, and keeping still in the sits without getting nervous. I'm raising my second "mamas' boy. The first one made it through, I am confident this one can too.

I target the shows in SC and some NC like Charlotte. I have attended two of the matches in Western NC.

I hope to see you around. I have posted some pictures of my boys in the photo galleries.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Goldendogx2 said:


> Boy, have I been having trouble figuring out how to post to these boards.
> 
> Anyway, I train in the Greenville, SC area with Connie Cleveland.
> Yes, I'm currently actively showing. I just finished up our CD and are working to enter Open events in November. Our current challenges are learning the drop on recall, but it is coming nicely, and keeping still in the sits without getting nervous. I'm raising my second "mamas' boy. The first one made it through, I am confident this one can too.
> ...



Lucky, lucky you, getting to train under Connie! CONGRATULATIONS on your CD! arty2:

Your boys are adorable!

I live about three hours from Greenville. If you were doing OB at the Greenville show at the end of July, you might have seen me hanging around the OB rings with my chocolate BC. I was there doing conf, but I always watch OB when I have time. Hopefully, we can meet up at a show in the near future! The next NC shows for me are UKC in Hickory in a couple of weeks (the weekend after Chattanooga), and then again in November. I'll be at the Knoxville show, but I'm guessing that's pretty far for you, although it is a nice venue for OB (the OB is in a separate building from conf, which is nice). I may go to Greensboro, but again doing conf, and I'm not sure if they even have OB there. And I'll be in Winston-Salem in Dec, but I don't think they have OB either, although I could be wrong.

I went to my first UKC show a few weeks ago and I had a blast! UKC obedience looks like fun (although it is a little harder than AKC obedience), and UKC has an awesome program called "The Total Dog," for dogs who compete in both conformation and performance.


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## Goldendogx2 (Sep 2, 2007)

*Shows in SE*

Yes, I was at the Greenville show at the end of July. A VERY good weekend for us. I got 1st (Novice) on Friday after a 3-way runoff with a 195 and on Saturday, I got 3rd with a 197.5! I was ecstatic! 1st and 2nd had a runoff at 198. 

Our Novice journey has been quite fun. If only we can hold our ground as we enter Open A.

Our Greenville club has a show on November 10. There is also a UKC show on October 6 and 7. Consider joining us!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Congrats on your new CD and welcome to the boards!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Goldendogx2 said:


> Yes, I was at the Greenville show at the end of July. A VERY good weekend for us. I got 1st (Novice) on Friday after a 3-way runoff with a 195 and on Saturday, I got 3rd with a 197.5! I was ecstatic! 1st and 2nd had a runoff at 198.
> 
> Our Novice journey has been quite fun. If only we can hold our ground as we enter Open A.
> 
> Our Greenville club has a show on November 10. There is also a UKC show on October 6 and 7. Consider joining us!


*Oh, WOW!* Congratulations, again, on a job *VERY, VERY* well done! Woo-hoo! arty2:

I will definitely look up the info for the upcoming shows and see if I can make it!


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