# Sudden aggression from our 4mo, male pup



## West1134 (Nov 3, 2014)

Hello all,

I have a few questions about our experience with our 4 month old male pup Kona, and wanted to hear what those on the forum have to say.

Our pup has been super sweet, and loves to cuddle (he thinks he's a lap dog) since day one. He never fought us on taking stuff away from him, and has been very easy going. But literally the day after he got his rabies vaccine, he grabbed my socks and climbed under the bed (nothing new) and upon me trying to take the socks away from him, he growled very aggressively this time, showed his teeth, and then snapped at me. Eventually we brought up some kibble to coax him out from under the bed, and traded him the kibble for the socks. We thought it was very strange, but thought perhaps it was because he's nearly too big to fit under there, he got himself wedged and couldn't escape, coupled with a sore leg from the shot the previous day, maybe he just went instictually into protection mode. Anyways, we moved on and didn't think much of it. However, a few days later while I had him at work (I bring him in 2-3 days a week) I had him tied to a table via his leash while I was working on something in our conference room when I heard my coworker say "what do you have?" then go down to get it away from him, only to jump up and say "wow he just snarled at me." (which he's never done to anyone before that first sock incident). So I immediately came over, and reached for him to give up whatever it was in his mouth (ended up being one of those rubber thimbles you use to sort papers) and he again snarled, growled very aggressively at me, showed his teeth and tried to bite me when my hands got close. I grabbed him by the back of the neck, held him down, and told him "No" firmly and to "drop it." Eventually he did, and I continued to hold him down, but now that I could get my hand close to his mouth, I held his muzzle closed, and made eye contact with him telling him no over and over. Upon letting him up, he gave the the sad eyes, and for the rest of the afternoon acted like a whipped pup, essentially looking at me for approval for everything. Finally yesterday morning, we again had the same exact sock under the bed incident (and I do my best BTW to keep them out of reach, but he's quick) this time, I was able to reach under the bed, and pull him out without incident, but once most his body was out from under the bed, and I was telling him to drop it while pulling it away, he started to growl, which started playful, but quickly escalated to aggressive. I immediately pinned him to the ground (not too rough of course) and "sat" on him (no body weight, just straddled) so he couldn't move and told him to drop it. He eventually did so, at which point I again grabbed his muzzle and told him no over and over again. After a few moments, I let him up, ignored him for a few minutes, and he was back to normal and following me around like nothing happened.

Is all this just normal aggression from a puppy trying to find his place in the world and testing me as the Alpha male? Is there any correlation you think with this and the fact that he just got his rabies shot (just seems odd it started happening the day after the shot), and am I reacting properly? Should I be doing something different? 

Other than these three incidents, he has always been super sweet, never been difficult to get things from him/out of his mouth. I regularly stick my hand in his food, and/or take it away mid way through to ensure he doesn't get aggressive there either, and realizes I provide the food for him. We even have him trained to, as soon as I dump the kibble in the bowl, he has to go lay down near where we feed him and wait for me to put the bowl down, then wait for us to give him the OK command before he can move, and he does this flawlessly. Again, this is why I'm so taken back by the sudden aggression on these three instances. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks! Sorry its so long, just wanted to be thorough with the details.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Your puppy is guarding things he finds high value, which isn't really generalized aggression. It's totally normal, but I have to caution you not to handle it the way you did at work. Meeting his guarding behavior with your own "aggression" will make it worse. If you scruff him and hold him down while yelling at him, or even just gruffly reprimanding him in that scenario, he will either learn to fight you or learn to fear you.

Start right now teaching him to give things to you in exchange for something better you offer him in trade. Practice, practice, practice, until he willingly gives up what he has for what you are offering, and eventually over many months he will learn to just give you what you ask for even without a trade - BUT starting out always trade.

I would also keep a leash on him at home, so that if he hides under the bed you can pull him out without having to reach in to get him. That will just help you avoid him snapping at you.

He is still just a baby, this is normal behavior and you just need to redirect it and teach him that giving you what he has results in him getting something really good in exchange. (fyi, there is no alpha male mentality between a puppy and a human, that is a very outdated and flawed ideology.)


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## Lise123 (Jan 1, 2014)

My puppy started guarding around the same time. I also tried to dominate him -- that TOTALLY backfired. In my case, that escalated his need to keep whatever he had picked up.

I adopted an approach I picked up from another dog owner, who always starts with "Good dog." Whenever Bailey has something and I need him to drop it, I start with "Good dog. Drop it." He will resist, especially if it's something he really wants, so I wait patiently till he does it. If I can get a hand on it, it also helps. I don't repeat the command, but I repeat "good dog."

Now he guards almost nothing, and when he does guard, it's when I'm all "OMG! DROP IT NOW!" (I still freak out when he has dead things.) Telling him he's a good dog or a silly dog relaxes him, and he's more likely to listen and obey.

If I have a treat handy, he spits stuff out immediately for "trade it." But I've stopped carrying high-value treats because really, he's 10 months old.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

I'm twitching a bit at your reaction to your puppy. You're going to hurt your relationship with him. There are MUCH better ways for you to handle it. mylissyk is spot on in her advice. Also, "no" is not a command. "No" is a sound to dogs. Holding his muzzle and telling him no will only result in him thinking "when he touches me, it's unpleasant" and will escalate the behavior. Many experts also recommend against the taking the food away and putting your hand in it theory - they feel it teaches the dog to guard it because it may be taken away at any time.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> Many experts also recommend against the taking the food away and putting your hand in it theory


Yes... the "experts" ...

They must be the same as child behaviour "experts".

Sometimes children just need a spank.

I do the hand in his food thing, it works. He will sit and wait endlessly now before feeding. And does not show aggression. where as before he did. redirection in some cases just plain old doesn't work.

We're still the bestest of buddies. he still licks me and sleeps on me... no harm no foul 



Rkaymay said:


> They feel it teaches the dog to guard it because it may be taken away at any time.


More like. It teaches the dog that if that's how he behaves then no food for him


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Never put my hand in Zelda's food, she's never once shown any hint of resource guarding.

Besides, I was just pointing out that sometimes the "old ways" are not the best ways for every dog. If we treated every child the same, we'd get nowhere. It's the same with pups. Sometimes new ideas come out that bear some merit. No need to jump down my throat for pointing out conflicting research.

I'm also against spanking btw.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Well, if you're dealing with a "child" that is faster than you, stronger than you, and has a mouthful of razor blades, perhaps going with non-physical approach should be considered, no?


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> Never put my hand in Zelda's food, she's never once shown any hint of resource guarding.


Of course she hasn't, you haven't stuck your hand in there. I suggest you do and see what happens...

It's about curbing that behaviour, so they don't do it to children or strangers 



Rkaymay said:


> I'm also against spanking.


I'm also against it, I'm saying, sometimes...that's what they need.



Noreaster said:


> Well, if you're dealing with a "child" that is faster than you, stronger than you, and has a mouthful of razor blades, perhaps going with non-physical approach should be considered, no?


Of course it should... sometimes a physical approach is the only option, as the behaviour needs to be stamped out before Adult hood


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I recommend educating yourself as much as you can on the topic and getting yourself involved with a positive trainer. Resource guarding is something that is very common in dogs and if you understand what's going through your dogs head it will be a lot easier for you to work with your dog to fix the problem. 

Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs by Jean Donaldson is a great book.

Here is a link by Patricia Mcconnell about Resource Guarding with some steps to follow on how to solve the problem. (I'll post them below)
Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention

When treating any sort of aggression with aggression you risk escalating the negative behavior. When your dog is feeling a negative emotion (fear in this case - because that's what resource guarding is derived from) and you act aggressively toward him you add another negative to the equation making him feel WORSE. What you want to do is make the fear go away so that your dog doesn't feel the need to guard the object. 

I also recommend using the search feature on the forum as there are a lot of threads on this topic. Take this as an opportunity to develop a bond of trust with your puppy. Best of luck.

ETA (quote from article):



> TREATMENT FOR INTERSPECIFIC GUARDING: I’m going to talk here about resource guarding between dogs and people. Treating it between two dogs uses the same basic principles, but requires enough alterations in technique to deserve its own article. That said, the most effective technique for stopping a dog from guarding resources from human intervention is to change your dog’s internal response to anothers attempt to possess their “treasure.” That is why you are best off using Desensitizing and Classical Conditioning to teach your dog to love it when you approach and reach toward an object. In other words, in this case you are not training your dog to respond to a cue, but conditioning an internal response to someone approaching something that they cherish.
> 
> Before going any further, stop here an contact a behaviorist or progressive trainer who understands how to use classical conditioning if your dog has ever put you at risk of being seriously injured. You’d call an electrician if you thought your wiring was unsafe in your house, wouldn’t you? Meanwhile, or if your dog is threatening but not dangerous, follow the steps outlined below.
> 
> ...


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## West1134 (Nov 3, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your input. 

There's some good info here, and I will try out some of the techniques suggested. I definitely don't want our pup to become fearful, or aggressive towards me due to the way I handle him when he becomes aggressive, but at the same time I have a hard time agreeing with this whole trade concept. In my eyes, that essentially rewards his aggressive/possessive reaction behavior by getting a different better treat, instead of being corrected. With that said, I will give it a try and see how it goes. He has been doing really good this week, and has lost a lot of teeth, so I think that probably has a lot to do with him becoming so possessive on certain soft items as they feel good on his teeth.

Thanks again for your input!


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## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

COMPLETELY disagree with the whole trading idea too. He needs to learn to respect you and other humans, regardless of whether you are offering up food or not.

I think a few people are perhaps blinded by their love for dogs. I'm not trying to be being nasty or rude, I'm just offering my honest opinion.

This is a dog, an animal, *not* a human being. You paid for him, you pay for his nice, warm, clean home, you pay for his healthy, nutritious food, he has to respect you. He is not allowed to resource guard. These days, a lot of people unfortunately treat their dogs with more respect than they would their own child. I have seen children's faces mauled by, yes, Golden Retrievers, because incorrect stances were taken to mend this particular problem. What happens the one time you need to take something off him and you have no treat available? He snaps. There will come a time he won't want to give it up, even for a treat.

A 4 month old puppy who is showing resource guarding behavior should be grabbed firmly by the scruff of the neck and given a very firm 'no'. ESPECIALLY if there is snarling/snapping/biting involved. For growling, a sharp 'no' and a tap on the nose will do. If he persists, a shaking of the scruff is likely in order. This will NOT ruin your relationship. Puppy must have some degree of, not 'fear', but respect for your authority. Treats will not accomplish that. 

Positive reinforcement is so great. It will achieve quicker results than reprimanding him, but in my honest opinion, for an issue like this, there is no place for positivity. He must know you are unhappy, not willing to give him food for aggressive behavior.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Marcus said:


> Yes... the "experts" ...
> 
> They must be the same as child behaviour "experts".
> 
> ...


I've said it before and I'll say it again here - if you put a hot fudge sundae in front of me, and then take it away, and do that over and over, I will eventually bite you. Actually, I'd probably bite you the first time, but I'm very possessive of my hot fudge sundaes.
If you don't let me eat in peace, I will bite you. 
If you bother me all the time when I eat, I will eventually bite you to make you leave me alone.
If you take my sundae and put more ice cream in my bowl and give it back to me, I might forgive you - once - but the next time I'll bite you.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

anamity said:


> COMPLETELY disagree with the whole trading idea too. He needs to learn to respect you and other humans, regardless of whether you are offering up food or not.
> 
> I think a few people are perhaps blinded by their love for dogs. I'm not trying to be being nasty or rude, I'm just offering my honest opinion.
> 
> ...


And if you take my sundae, I will grab you, shake you, and then bite you.
Respect that.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Times have changed, and isn't it nice. I am glad to learn about different ways to have relationships with my dogs. Partners and friends, we learn each others rules together. What a relief to no longer have to be a dictator, and exert dominian over them. We actualy know now that this old fashioned method causes problems, it does not solve them. Watch out when you least expect it.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Marcus said:


> Of course she hasn't, you haven't stuck your hand in there. I suggest you do and see what happens...
> 
> It's about curbing that behaviour, so they don't do it to children or strangers
> 
> ...


I've never felt the need to stick my hand in Max's food bowl, unless I was adding something to it. I've never seen him guard anything, either. I can take anything from him - because he knows that I don't normally take things from him for no reason. Do I think he reasons that out? No, I don't, I'm not "blinded by my love for him." I think he's had years of knowing that when something is taken from him, something better replaces it. I'd also bet that even you could stick your hand in his bowl, and nothing would happen except that he'd patiently wait for you to be finished so he could eat his meal in peace.


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## Buddy's mom forever (Jun 23, 2011)

anamity said:


> ...This is a dog, an animal, *not* a human being. ...
> 
> He must know you are unhappy, not willing to give him food for aggressive behavior.


I am sorry but I am really curious if you could explain how does "he must know that you are unhappy.." *if* "This is a dog, an animal, *not* a human being". .


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again here - if you put a hot fudge sundae in front of me, and then take it away, and do that over and over, I will eventually bite you. Actually, I'd probably bite you the first time, but I'm very possessive of my hot fudge sundaes.
> If you don't let me eat in peace, I will bite you.
> If you bother me all the time when I eat, I will eventually bite you to make you leave me alone.
> If you take my sundae and put more ice cream in my bowl and give it back to me, I might forgive you - once - but the next time I'll bite you.


Yeah, while we're talking hot fudge sundaes.
I like them. 
You put a hot fudge sundae in front of me, I'm going to eat it right now.

You try and take it away, I'm going to growl and let you know I'm still enjoying this sundae so leave me alone

You still want to take away my sundae, I'm going to bite you.

Oh. you have a doughnut, man oh man I love doughnuts, I'm just going to leave this Sundae here and come after you, because you're holding the doughnut, because I want this doughnut.

_Next day Enter little 6 year old Sally_
I'm busy eating my Sundae and Sally comes over and decides she wants some. I'm sick of people try to take my sundae, I bite her.

Sally runs off crying to go dob on my like a rat.

I get get taken away to the doctors and given a shot which puts me to sleep forever, all because Sally WASN'T holding a doughnut to redirect my attention from the Sundae.


I get redirection works, I use it. 

I just don't use it in this case, as it's an *absolute* for me. you resource guard you get reprimanded no if's or buts about it...


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Marcus said:


> Yeah, while we're talking hot fudge sundaes.
> I like them.
> You put a hot fudge sundae in front of me, I'm going to eat it right now.
> 
> ...


I believe that proves my point.
Stop messing with the dog's food and let him eat in peace.
If I know that no one is going to take my donut, I won't get possessive of it. So if little Sally, whose parents should have taught her to leave a dog alone when he's eating, should take my donut, I will be surprised, but I won't bite her UNLESS I'm tired of people taking my food all the time.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> I believe that proves my point.
> Stop messing with the dog's food and let him eat in peace.
> If I know that no one is going to take my donut, I won't get possessive of it. So if little Sally, whose parents should have taught her to leave a dog alone when he's eating, should take my donut, I will be surprised, but I won't bite her UNLESS I'm tired of people taking my food all the time.


You think I want to stick my hand in his food? 

I do it, so he becomes used to hands around high value items like food.

I put his dish down, tell him to wait.

I stick my hand in his bowl when I tell him "ok" and he begins eating. 

He is now fine with me reaching for his high value item. If he growls or shows signs of aggression what he values at the time i.e. his food get removed and he gets reprimanded.

He now allows this to happen, so when Sally does it, he won't bite her and I won't have to kill my dog because of the stupid parents who didn't teach their child to leave dogs alone when they eat.

I don't want to kill my dog, I love my dog.

I want to know I can take my dog places and know this behaviour will NEVER happen


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I guess it comes down to common sense to me - if you keep taking something from me, I will get possessive of it and hide it and try to keep you from taking it or messing with it. 

I didn't advocate trading, although I think that's a better method than grabbing the puppy and shaking it, I said to leave the dog alone while he's eating.


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## Aiden's Mom (Aug 27, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> If you don't let me eat in peace, I will bite you.
> If you bother me all the time when I eat, I will eventually bite you to make you leave me alone.
> If you take my sundae and put more ice cream in my bowl and give it back to me, I might forgive you - once - but the next time I'll bite you.


I dunno, if I bit my Mother if she was gonna take my hot fudge sundae, I think my Mom and Dad wouldn't let me have my hot fudge sundae and would most likely give me a good spank 

At least this is how it was when I grew up 

....wait are we talking about dogs or humans?? :doh:

--On a serious note-- I probably wouldn't give my dog treats for growling at me. I started putting my hand in Aiden's food when he was 10 weeks old, just for a couple seconds. I also hold his bones or other chewy stuff and let him chew on them while I'm holding them for about 30 seconds and let him have it. Weird, but this seemed to have worked, he's never shown any food aggression or any guarding towards anything in his life.  Do I feel bad for him since I put my hand in/near his food? No, of course not...he's a dog, not a human child :uhoh:


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Aiden's Mom said:


> I dunno, if I bit my Mother if she was gonna take my hot fudge sundae, I think my Mom and Dad wouldn't let me have my hot fudge sundae and would most likely give me a good spank
> 
> At least this is how it was when I grew up
> 
> ...


Even when I was a child, my parents knew better than to take my sundae every time they gave it to me

I have put my hand in Max's bowl, I have taken things from him, he has never shown any signs of guarding and I doubt he ever would, it's not in his nature. Some dogs do, some don't - and I still think that if you have a dog who does guard, taking things from him because you're bigger and need to be dominant and show him who's boss, is only going to make the problem worse.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> I guess it comes down to common sense to me - if you keep taking something from me, I will get possessive of it and hide it and try to keep you from taking it or messing with it.
> 
> I didn't advocate trading, although I think that's a better method than grabbing the puppy and shaking it, I said to leave the dog alone while he's eating.


This also brings up the issue of if he grabs broken glass or something that will harm him. I want to know I can get it off him fast and easy without the threat of him biting. 

I play with his food because that's the highest value item there is. 

Eventually I won't have to play with his food. And I don't play with it the entire time he eats. Just long enough for him to know I'm there


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

West1134 - Strongly suggest acquiring the book 'Mine' by Jean Donaldson. It is a valuable resource written specifically dealing with resource guarding issues. Understand that resource guarding is natural instinctive behavior in any dog, though not every dog will guard, every dog can guard. It is fundamentally a fear based behavior, the dog is afraid it is going lose what it has (whether it is food, a toy or a stolen sock, in a dog's world it 'rightfully' belongs to them if they have it in their possession) and should never be handled with confrontation/intimidation or 'aggression' (scruff shakes, pinning etc.) from a dog owner. Respect that fact that your dog is a dog, and will behave like a dog, and he will respect you for understanding that, and teaching him to TRADE!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

West1134 said:


> Thank you everyone for your input.
> 
> There's some good info here, and I will try out some of the techniques suggested. I definitely don't want our pup to become fearful, or aggressive towards me due to the way I handle him when he becomes aggressive, but at the same time I have a hard time agreeing with this whole trade concept. In my eyes, that essentially rewards his aggressive/possessive reaction behavior by getting a different better treat, instead of being corrected. With that said, I will give it a try and see how it goes. He has been doing really good this week, and has lost a lot of teeth, so I think that probably has a lot to do with him becoming so possessive on certain soft items as they feel good on his teeth.
> 
> Thanks again for your input!



It's not rewarding his bad behavior, the process of teaching trade teaches him that you approaching and taking things from him is not a negative, it is a positive. As with any training, once they learn it, it becomes habit and the treat is phased out. You should be practicing trade in non-crisis situations, set it up and practice, so when he has something you HAVE to take, he has learned to give it up on command.


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## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

laprincessa... you're being really silly. Sorry, but that's honestly what I see.

And to whoever said that dogs are too stupid to realize when humans are unhappy, you're an A-class idiot. There have been numerous studies conducted to demonstrate that dogs understand the difference in our emotions.

Ultimately, it boils down to this: We are letting this animal into our homes. The animal is ULTIMATELY our property, not our family. Yes, it's nice to be all happy families and say we love them, and don't get me wrong - I LOVE my dogs, I would do a hell of a lot for them, and I do NOT steal their hot fudge sundaes. But let's get one thing clear. They are my DOGS, not my children, not my equals. They are my animals, and I expect a certain level of respect and obedience from them. The reason I own Golden Retrievers is because they are known as a friendly, docile breed. If I wanted a tenacious dog who was going to bite me when I approached it's food, I would have inherently chosen differently.

The Golden Retriever is one of the most readily trainable breeds, and an undesirable trait that MUST be modified is resource guarding. Those who avoid the problem are simply A-class idiots.

If your dog jumps up to the kitchen counter and steals the meal of fish you are preparing, only to growl, snap and bite you when you try to retrieve your meal from his mouth, only to put you in ER, and you have no control of the situation and fear your own dog, you are one HELL OF A STUPID IDIOT.

The dog should have been taught from a very early age that resource guarding against you is unacceptable.

laprincessa, you sound like a very nice person, don't get me wrong, but your training ethics are fundamentally flawed.

*Did you know that domestic dog bite rates have risen over 500% in the last 10 or so years?*d
*Don't try to tell me that this is due to confrontational, dominant training. This is due to the likes of bad, pure-positive trainers, who advocate a lack, or absence thereof, of reprimand and correction. Correction for this sort of wild behavior is necessary in a grown dog, just as much as it is in a puppy.*

I bet a large part of that is down to owners who ensue this 'pure positive' method of training, giving the dog food for showing you aggression whilst chewing your underpants. RIDICULOUS. Because owners do not teach their dogs respect, many owners fear their own dogs. From 8 weeks old, all of the puppies I have reared as family pets in the past have learned this fundamental rule of respect for all humans in the household. Those who do not teach this puppy this are simply dodging responsibility, and there is your root cause of a 500% increase in dog bites in the homes.

My dogs have been taught to respect humans. Heck, I wouldn't mind if they even feared me when it comes to resource guarding. In fact, I would rather they fear me than degrade themselves to a wild state and put me in hospital, a friend in hospital, or worse, maul a child's face because of some misunderstanding or simple mistake. I prefer for the dog to have freedom and for there to be a bond of mutual trust, rather than micro-managaging every aspect of their lives, including who is allowed near them, locking them in a basement to chew their toys, whatever.

If my puppy were showing me aggression because of food, a toy, or anything else, I would give it a firm verbal reprimanding, i.e. a strong "NO!", as soon as they release a growl. I will then confidently move my hand forward, and attempt to withdraw the item from their mouth. If the "NO" has not caused them sufficient fear/upset to back off, I will grab the item in their mouth, at the same time grabbing the scruff of their neck, and attempt to withdraw the item, issuing another firm "NO". If they refuse to give in, I will vigorously shake the scruff, whilst pulling the item from their mouth, releasing another firm "NO". At this point, the puppy should have released the item, given that it is still young while this is being taught. This teaches the puppy two things. 1) That I have control over what items the dog puts in its mouth, and I control when I want them back. Yes, I have dominance over the dog, but this is not 'dominance theory'. This is respect. 2) I do not fear the dog, and I am stronger than the dog.

Let's say you have a shy or skittish puppy. It will give up the item with a simple, firm "NO". There is no need for a scruff shake. More driven puppies will learn a very simple lesson: I am stronger than them and I do not fear them. They do not learn to fear me, but they simply learn a few lessons which will allow me to control their environment.

If you fear a 20lbs Golden Retriever puppy, you have problems. If you really think a 20lbs puppy is stronger than you, you will have real problems down the line.

My dogs are now several years of age. They have all been taught in the same manner. When I approach, they are fine with it. Sometimes they roll on their side, asking me to hold whatever they are chewing in my hand to make their life easier to chew on it, other times they will stop chewing and look up to me expecting a treat, as I've often walked up to them and given them treats whilst chewing things. But, if I choose to remove the said item, they will drop it from their mouth as soon as I walk closer to it, and they will never keep it in their mouth if they see my hand approaching it. If I ever did receive a growl from any of them, they would immediately receive a verbal reprimand, strong enough to make them tuck their tail between their legs. NO WAY am I giving them cooked, seasoned, freshly made chicken as a bribe, out of fear of being bitten.

You guys need to get over your fears of your own pets, and teach them a little respect.

I am categorically AGAINST dominance theory. I believe that dominance theory rapidly degrades human-canine relationships. But telling your dog no is not dominance. A firm shaking of the scruff in such a situation is not dominance. There is no stupid hot fudge sundae nonsense coming from me. This is a dog, and it's wolf-like traits come out when put into confrontational situations that weren't addressed as a puppy. My house is no place for wild, wolfish behavior.

You are human, and *IT* is a dog. I love my dogs, more than most, granted, but there is a place to draw the line.


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## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> ...and I still think that if you have a dog who does guard, taking things from him because you're bigger and need to be dominant and show him who's boss, is only going to make the problem worse.


That is not the reason it's done. The reason it's done is to rehearse for real-life situations when we NEED to retrieve something from the dog's possession for the sake of its own safety, the safety of others, etc. You may think it's unlikely, but there are horror stories about these situations.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

This is an interesting topic and I have been following it since it started.

Millie is my first ever dog, my first ever need to train a dog. We've had her since she was 8 weeks old. 

I had grown up with the idea that dog training was part treats and part heavy handed discipline. I had people discouraging the use of such heavy handed discipline but I believed that it was something that everybody did but never spoke about as it wasn't PC these days to do.

Millie's discipline had been part re-direction, part social separation and physical correction albeit used sparingly.

The last time I spanked Millie was a few weeks ago. She was jumping and biting, something that she has been doing for a few weeks whilst she has been teething, but this time she caught me outside of the house. I had no treats, no toys in reach, no spray bottle, she had no collar on at the time, I was also only wearing boxer shorts so I had no clothing to protect myself from her claws and teeth.

What did I choose to do? I smacked her on her rump to stop her. What happened next? She went at me with an elevated viciousness. I finally made it back into the house but it wasn't pretty and locking her out wasn't easy.

After that incident I haven't laid a hand on her in anger and I've decided never to do it again. I thought back to all the times I had whacked her on the snout (with only one or two fingers) or poked her or smacked her bum. None of those actions had resulted in her ceasing the behavior I was trying to correct. And the last incident had shown me that my reaction had only made the situation worse. This IS my experience. 

I place my food in Millie's food as she eats and she has no problem with that. I feed her by hand a lot. I have removed her food bowl mid meal without incident but I don't feel the need to keep testing this one a lot, only every now and again whilst she is growing to make sure that she is keeping her cool.

In the last week I have had two occasions with Millie that show me that the positive training has been working in regards to doing as she is told when being asked to drop contraband. On Monday I went towards the clothesline and Millie picked up a plastic peg and started to chew. As soon as I saw this I said, "Millie, leave it." She stopped chewing but she didn't drop it straight away, but she also didn't run away and guard it. Instead she stood there, peg in mouth, thinking. It took about 15-20 seconds but eventually SHE decided to drop the peg. as soon as she did this I praised the crap out of her and told her to come with me for a treat. I had to go inside to get the treat and she was happy to comply with my command without seeing the treat. We had a similar scenario out on a walk yesterday and again she decided to do the right thing without my physical intervention or a treat. I'm happy with those results and with the positive training that has set up this behavior.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

West1134 said:


> Thank you everyone for your input.
> 
> There's some good info here, and I will try out some of the techniques suggested. I definitely don't want our pup to become fearful, or aggressive towards me due to the way I handle him when he becomes aggressive, but at the same time I have a hard time agreeing with this whole trade concept. In my eyes, that essentially rewards his aggressive/possessive reaction behavior by getting a different better treat, instead of being corrected. With that said, I will give it a try and see how it goes. He has been doing really good this week, and has lost a lot of teeth, so I think that probably has a lot to do with him becoming so possessive on certain soft items as they feel good on his teeth.
> 
> Thanks again for your input!


Hello West1134!

I have a few bits of advice that I hope would help. 

The first thing I would do is take control of your puppy's environment. Be vigilant with your clothes! If your socks are being stolen when you are putting them on, keep them in your hands/pocket until you have them on. If they are being stolen when you are taking them off, put them straight into the washing basket. If your washing basket doesn't have a lid, get one that does. Puppy proof your own behavior/rituals. 

Secondly I would cut off the opportunity for puppy to get under the bed. Puppy may have to stay outside of the bedroom behind a closed door or baby gate to do so, and that would be a great chance to train your puppy to sit and wait for your permission to enter the room. Otherwise you may be able to cut off access underneath the bed by blocking the gap between the bed and the floor. It may not be attractive but you have to be practical. Being a human means you can control the environment that your dog is in whilst inside your home!!

Thirdly, I've got some great YouTube videos for you to watch. 

"It's Yer Choice" is a great way to teach impulse control. I taught my pup this when she was 10 weeks old over two or three nights. 
http://youtu.be/ipT5k1gaXhc

This a different way of teaching "drop it" but it may be perfect for your situation. It helps to shape a reflex reaction. 
http://youtu.be/ndTiVOCNY4M

And lastly, if you don't play "tug of war" with puppy then I would recommend it BUT it has to be played with rules. And these rules help reinforce that you are in control of every situation. Also, personally I am against the use of rope toys for tug just because a dog could too easily see a girl's pony tail as a tug rope. 
http://youtu.be/SdsuEZ4lcD0


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## Buddy's mom forever (Jun 23, 2011)

anamity said:


> ...
> And to whoever said that dogs are too stupid to realize when humans are unhappy, you're an A-class idiot. There have been numerous studies conducted to demonstrate that dogs understand the difference in our emotions...
> 
> Ultimately, it boils down to this: We are letting this animal into our homes. The animal is ULTIMATELY our property, not our family. Yes, it's nice to be all happy families and say we love them, and don't get me wrong - I LOVE my dogs, I would do a hell of a lot for them, and I do NOT steal their hot fudge sundaes. But let's get one thing clear. They are my DOGS, not my children, not my equals. They are my animals, and I expect a certain level of respect and obedience from them...
> ...


Thank you, that an A-class idiot would be me. :wavey: I will take it as a compliment.

Sorry I had to butcher your post but I have to tell just because all these studies show that dogs have emotions I think they shouldn't be treated as a property. 

Respect is something what should be earned.

How you can have "dominance over the dog, but this is not 'dominance theory'"?
Practicing dominance in any aspect of life to me screams *fear* of that dog or person.

And yes I am a human (and an A-class idiot with what I am ok to be) and my dog is not "*IT*" to me.


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## anamity (Jun 14, 2014)

Buddy's mom forever said:


> Thank you, that an A-class idiot would be me. :wavey: I will take it as a compliment.
> 
> Sorry I had to butcher your post but I have to tell just because all these studies show that dogs have emotions I think they shouldn't be treated as a property.
> 
> ...


It was meant as a compliment. I'm glad I didn't offend you, apologies. 

I respect your feelings and the way you think of your dog, you sound like a very honorable person, to which I salute you.

I'm not advocating that dogs be thought of as objects or possessions, but rather trying to communicate that there has been a recognized increase in these type of attacks on owners due to a lack of diligence and willingness to lay hands on the animal.

I really love my dogs, and never think of them as objects, but sometimes I feel as though people need a little shock in order to take behavior management seriously again. I mean, a 500% increase in domestic dog bites is a lot.


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## jaina8851 (Apr 19, 2014)

Dog bites have risen dramatically, but 500% seems a little outrageous.

All Dog Bite Statistics

Also, it doesn't seem fair to blame positive training with increases in dog bites. If a person is TRAINING their dog, positively or otherwise, it would seem to me that the likelihood of a dog bite is lower. People who don't train their dog at all, or train their dog to be aggressive, are more likely to have a biting dog on their hands. 

Perhaps the increase in dog bites can also be related to the increase in people who are getting puppies instead of having babies? If there are more dogs in homes, there probably will be more bites. It doesn't say anything about the percentage of dogs that are biting, just about the percentage of bites reported. There are probably many factors that are related to the increase in dog bites.


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm going to politely ignore the arguing here and simply tell you that I had the very same situation when my boy was about 4 or 5 months. My daughter tried to take a bone from him and he bit her hand. I was very concerned that he was getting aggressive, and came on here to ask for advice. 

I was told about resource guarding and trading and I researched these. Derek tried the growl a few times after, and each time I traded him for something else. He is now the least aggressive dog ever, and although sometimes he will hold onto things tightly, (especially underwear!!), he will always give them back and never growl or show teeth.

So in my experience, trading had really worked. I haven't and wouldn't try the other method, I can only say what has worked for our beautiful placid boy.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Training without fear, intimidation and force does not mean that a dog doesn't have consequences for his/her actions.

Young puppies and the op's dog is a young puppy really hasn't had enough time to understand the house rules. It takes 500 to 1,000 good repetitions for a pup to have full understanding of a behavior if the trainer is totally consistent in the training. So our expectations of these young pups is usually much higher than they can achieve. 
Using management and prevention so a pup cannot practice the inappropriate behaviors (not allowing them as much freedom to choose wrongly) while we are continuely training for the wanted behaviors is very important. Don't give them the opportunity to practice the inappropriate behaviors. When they do roll up a newspaper and smack yourself with it as you the grown up make the mistake as they don't know yet.

Work daily with low level items in training set ups rewarding for all good choices. 
Train

after the first few training sessions do not use the treat as a lure only produce the reward after the pup chooses to do the behavior asked.
drop it
give
and leave it.

If the pup does get to an item and won't give it up this is not the time to train at that moment use a very high value treat and lure them to give up the item. Again roll up a newspaper and smack yourself as again it is because of your mistake the pup got to the item.

As time goes by and the pup actually knows the behaviors the pup can have more freedom (less management) and most items do not need to be put up as the pup will make good choices and have impulse control.


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm not going to beat the things that have already been said over the head, or even offer an opinion on whether or not to put hand in the food or to trade or not to trade. I feel these discussions are really ultimately about a mindset that you hold about training, and whether you know it or not, your methods reflect a theoretical point of view about dogs and dog training. It is worth examining whether your chosen methods align with your theoretical point of view or not. To be clear, while everyone is entitled to their opinion, the science points in a clear direction. Here is some reading for those who are still thinking in terms of dominance and alpha dog theory. You may choose to hold on to your former believes, and that is your prerogative. but you should at least know that the positions expressed below are endorsed by the American Academy of Veterinary Sciences as well as the American Association of Animal Behaviorists among other similar entities.

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

The Myth of the Alpha Dog | Dr. Karen Becker

The Alpha Dog Myth (Part 2): Abandoning the Dominance Theory

Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I have a resource guarder. Why is my claim still present tense, instead of past tense since he no longer guards? Cause just because he hasn't guarded in a while doesn't mean he won't ever guard again nor that I should be lax in my precautions around guests. It is my job as his owner to ensure the safety of both him and anybody who interacts with him. If that means putting him in a crate when he's eating and we have company. So be it. If that means scolding a child for trying to play with him while he's eating. So be it. I take my responsibility as his owner very seriously. 

When his guarding tendencies first showed up, he was about 3 months old. He sliced my finger open when he snapped at me over a carrot. We initially tried dominance theory (the alpha roll and the like) and it just made things worse. We realized that that type of training isn't a good match for him and we could find a better way to do things. So we went to a trainer and picked up a copy of "mine!" By Jean Donaldson. We spent months (at least 8 months) working through the book. We nailed down his obedience on commands for bring it, drop, give, take, and leave it. We're to the point that even if he decides to guard something (and I have no treat!!) that I can tell him to come bring it to me and deliver it to my hand and he will. 

I can open his mouth and take things out that are dangerous to him. I can grab sticks and he'll drop them and carry on. I can drop something on the floor and he won't go for it. He waits for permission. 

All of this was achieved with positive reinforcement. It was done in stages and we used progressively more guarded items as we got better and better with the less possessive items. 

I agree with the other poster that said just because we don't use fear or intimidation to get our way, doesn't mean there are no corrections. 

I choose not to correct a growl. I respect his only form of communicating unease. But that doesn't mean his growl stops me from getting whatever he's got. It just means I find a different way to achieve my results.


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## West1134 (Nov 3, 2014)

WOW! This really started a great discussion. Thank you all again, for chiming in, that is what makes forums like this great. I like hearing various opinions, and what has worked and not worked for each individual.

Overall, I think every dog and their owner will find their own way that works for them. And I don't mean that as in what ideology works for them, so much as what techniques work, and what ones don't, regardless of the ideology behind it.

With that said, I am trying a variety of techniques, and will be reading the links and watching the videos shared to find what works for us and our pup.

We had another potential incident this morning, where once again he found a sock (this time he found one that had fallen between some stuff that we had missed while doing laundry earlier. But trust me accountability on our socks has become priority one these days) anyways, he climbed under the bed again, and I once again got down, to get it from him. I approached him the same way as I did before when he snarled at me, but this time just did it light hearted with a positive tone and was like "what do you got there bud?" I reached in and while you could tell he didn't want to give it to me, he didn't make a peep, didn't growl or anything. I grabbed ahold of the sock, and then told him to drop it. He didn't drop it, but you could tell he loosened his grasp on it. At that point, I told him to drop it again, and again he loosened his grasp a little more. I told him good boy and then presented him with a treat. He immediately let go of the sock, and took the treat out of my hand. I petted him, told him good boy and told him to come out from under the bed, and he'd get another treat. He complied, and then we rewarded him again.

All in all I'm really happy with the interaction. Its all baby steps in the training, and while I think coming at him with a softer positive tone, and not telling him no, and grabbing for the sock was part of the success, I do also think he remembered his reprimand and from our previous interaction, and knew he wasn't to act that way again. 

He's a great dog, and I'm looking forward to working with him more and more to get a common trust going so that when he does get something I don't want him to have, he will let it go when I tell him to. It'll all just come in time and training.


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## Kora2014 (Sep 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> You think I want to stick my hand in his food?
> 
> I do it, so he becomes used to hands around high value items like food.
> 
> ...


I totally agree! Your dog should learn trust and also learn that just because you are around their food or possesions and even if your hand is close or in their bowls...your not going to remove their food! They are learning they have nothing to worry about!

I have a nine year old and I often tell her to go put her hand close to our puppy when she is chewing her bone or playing with a toy. Not to take it away, but to learn that she doesn't have to worry about it being taken away!

I love my dog too and if 'Sally' came over and pulled my dogs bone out of her mouth, I don't want her to snap because she is possessive!!


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't necessarily think that putting a hand in the food in a relaxed away is a bad thing. To me it's about the pup associating the proximity of your hand with good things, as is hand feeding. Repeatedly taking away the food is another matter.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

thorbreafortuna said:


> Repeatedly taking away the food is another matter.


I think someone misread what I wrote as I never said I repeatedly took away food, i.e taunted dog with it.

If my dog growled of snapped then, yes I would remove the high value item re food and reprimand the dog. Wait about a minute and make him wait then give him his dinner.

The next night I repeat the process. He got the message pretty quickly.

I in NO way taunt my Dog with "here you go, no, you can't have it, here you go, no, you can't have it"

What I've done is training. It's the same as treat training, repetitive commands and actions, rewarded with a treat. They do something bad, they don't get the treat.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Marcus said:


> They do something bad, they don't get the treat.


You are referring to negative punishment.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

lhowemt said:


> You are referring to negative punishment.


No... pretty sure that's called positive reinforcement. Reward for doing the right thing. Why would I reward for not doing the task...

That's like giving every child who participated in a foot race a medal.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Marcus said:


> No... pretty sure that's called positive reinforcement. Reward for doing the right thing. Why would I reward for not doing the task...
> 
> 
> 
> That's like giving every child who participated in a foot race a medal.



"You do something bad, you don't get the treat." Is negative reinforcement, if I recall correctly. 

Positive reinforcement: give a positive reward for a behavior (to give incentive to repeat the behavior) 
Negative reinforcement: remove a positive reward for a behavior. (To deter the behavior)
Position punishment: apply a correction or deterrent for a behavior (to deter the behavior). 
Negative punishment: remove a correction or deterrent for a behavior you want to reward.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

This thread is a hoot. Totally missing the point that dogs come with a temperament, a personality and a disposition...just like people. You can get a "whatever" dog or an insecure dog or a highly confident dog. 

Dogs who want to guard, will guard. Dogs who don't want to, won't. It's lovely to think that sticking your hand in their bowl made you the superior being and TAUGHT them that you are all powerful, but if your dog doesn't care...he's a "whatever" dog. If you get a dog who is insecure and you stick your hand in the bowl, you will eventually get a guarder or one that slinks off into the corner. A highly confident dog may guard too or it may indulge your little game until it doesn't feel like playing anymore.

In the end, you will not teach a dog not to guard by taking away it resources. You are talkinng about a puppy here...still forming it's view of the world. Trade, trade, trade. Keep control of it with a leash so it can't go off by itself (under the bed) to have it's forbidden object. That is the first sign of guarding...wanting to be alone with the object and leaving or growling if you come near. 


Active guarding release chemicals in the brain that stay in the brain for up to 72 hours. Those chemicals enhance the will to guard. A cycle that can only be broken by having the dog not guard. You achieve that by trading for something more valuable. Sometimes that's cheese or hotdog. Remember, you are training a baby here. If you constantly cause the guarding behavior, it becomes a "learned behavior"...you have taught it to guard the same as teaching it to sit on a hand signal or come when called. You want the learned behavior to be "drop" "leave it" "give". Work on that instead and for Heaven's sake, give the treat if the dog tries to obey; even if it fails a bit.

Do not try to scruff a guarding dog...you are practically demanding it bite you. Do not get physical with a guarding dog; it can hurt you more than you can hurt it.

Trade Trade Trade. For the dogs sake, meet it half way.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Penny's Mom said:


> This thread is a hoot.


Agreed, it's a good lively discussion.



Penny's Mom said:


> You want the learned behavior to be "drop" "leave it" "give". Work on that instead and for Heaven's sake, give the treat if the dog tries to obey; even if it fails a bit.


I do this for non essential things, like socks.

I see guarding food to be a different kettle of fish and that behaviour, IMO needs to be swiftly bought into check and NOT tolerated for a second. 

This is to protect my dogs life.

Some of you will no doubt say, it's the same thing and dog can't recognise between the two.

I disagree. He knows what his food is, and where it goes, and beats me to his dish every single time.

A sock is a new play thing that can easily be traded for.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Marcus said:


> No... pretty sure that's called positive reinforcement. Reward for doing the right thing. Why would I reward for not doing the task...
> 
> That's like giving every child who participated in a foot race a medal.


Here is a little reading for you.

"Negative Punishment (-P): If you want your dog to repeat a behavior less frequently, remove any reward or perceived award for the behavior."

http://ahimsadogtraining.com/handouts/training-basics.html?alt=learning+theory


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't understand why you think food has to be an issue. In all our years with dogs, we put the food in the bowl and walk away. 3 minutes later, the dog is finished eating and life is good. Why makes such a big deal out of those 3 minutes. 

We give our dog a corner of the laundry room, adjacent to the kitchen and leave the door open. Part of the group and yet away from the group...the group being 2 humans and one dog. Our pup leads us to his empty dish...much like Snoopy. He watches us fill the bowl, follows up to add the water and then he goes to his bowl holder and repeatedly points his nose to the holder as if to say: here! Here is where is goes! Right here! Right here! Cute as can be. We put it there and walk away. No need to take it away again. I don't understand the point of making them wonder if they will get their food or not; worrying that somebody will take it away; or the need to be able to take it away. Sounds like some human ego thing going on.

I've never understood the need to bother the dog while it's eating...let them eat in peace.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

lhowemt said:


> Here is a little reading for you.


Good Golly... so much terminology, hard to keep track... it's like when the world decided to be all Politicly Correct 



Penny's Mom said:


> I don't understand why you think food has to be an issue.


It's the highest coverted item they have, and the one thing they will guard the most.



Penny's Mom said:


> We give our dog a corner of the laundry room, adjacent to the kitchen and leave the door open. Part of the group and yet away from the group...the group being 2 humans and one dog.


That's all well and good at home. Nothing wrong with that.



Penny's Mom said:


> I've never understood the need to bother the dog while it's eating...let them eat in peace.


Agreed. I do it, to train, when it's learnt I'll stop


Senario:

I go to an off lead park, dog is having a blast running around, little Sally eating an ice-cream wonders in, (dunno why she should, lets say she just does), I've bent over to tie my shoes laces, they keep coming undone, silly shoe laces. Dog runs up to Sally, whoops in the excitement Sally drops the ice-cream Dog starts to eat it, Sally bends down and reaches out for it. 
SNAP
Dog has bitten Sally, everyone freaks out Sally goes to ER for stitches... 

I'm in trouble now. I not only have to pay for Sally ER bill, I'm being forced by the police to Kill my dog...

All because, I didn't teach my dog to not be aggressive around food, I then cry myself to sleep for the next few months.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

What I don't understand is why everyone is so insistent on removing an instinct. Guarding is a far ingrained, instinctual behavior that enables survival in our dogs. Though they don't need to guard anymore to survive, the instinct is still present. It is stronger in some dogs than others. You are trying to teach the dog that it's INSTINCTS are wrong. Even 15 years of scruffing and alpha rolling a resource guarding dog will never overturn thousands of years of instinct. You may teach the dog a fear of guarding, but that instinct is always there, and if you are in the wrong moment instinct will override fear. You will NOT overrun instinct. It is not possible. But you can WORK WITH the instinct. What is so terribly wrong about that?

Also, I don't understand your obsession with food. A dog can resource guard without guarding food. Resource guarding is whatever the dog thinks is high value. A dog may rip your face off over a sock and not care whatsoever if your hand is in his food. Your distinction that "drop it and leave it are acceptable for socks and not food" is flawed.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Marcus said:


> Good Golly... so much terminology, hard to keep track... it's like when the world decided to be all Politicly Correct
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dog park rules say that small children are not allowed, nor is food
You're off the hook because little Sally's parents, who are obviously the result of bad breeding practices, broke the rules. 

Not a valid scenario. And little Sally really needs to break her junk food habit. I say we grab her by the hair and throw her down on the ground every time she looks sideways at a donut, or an ice cream cone and pretty soon she'll realize that we're the boss and stop this nonsense of eating around dogs.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> But you can WORK WITH the instinct. What is so terribly wrong about that?


 Nothing, that's what I'm doing. I don't expect him to be 100% compliant, I'm happy with 99.9%



Rkaymay said:


> Also, I don't understand your obsession with food.


Again, as I've said in previous posts... It's the highest coveted item they have, and the one thing they will guard the most.




Rkaymay said:


> A dog can resource guard without guarding food. Resource guarding is whatever the dog thinks is high value. A dog may rip your face off over a sock and not care whatsoever if your hand is in his food. Your distinction that "drop it and leave it are acceptable for socks and not food" is flawed.


Socks and non food items, I find are toys.

I see guarding food to be a different kettle of fish and that behaviour, IMO needs to be swiftly bought into check and NOT tolerated for a second. 

This is to protect my dogs life.

Some of you will no doubt say, it's the same thing and dog can't recognise between the two.

I disagree. He knows what his food is, and where it goes, and beats me to his dish every single time.

A sock is a new play thing that can easily be traded for.



laprincessa said:


> Dog park rules say that small children are not allowed, nor is food
> You're off the hook because little Sally's parents, who are obviously the result of bad breeding practices, broke the rules.


True that, I'd hate to be dealing with Sally, constantly breaking the rules



laprincessa said:


> I say we grab her by the hair and throw her down on the ground every time she looks sideways at a donut, or an ice cream cone and pretty soon she'll realize that we're the boss and stop this nonsense of eating around dogs.


Not needed, as Sally can understand English, also the threat of a spank.


I feel I'm repeating myself alot here haha

Maybe I'm not making my point clear enough... either way, we're starting to travel in cycles. So I'll bow out from here on


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Dogs. Do. Not. Always. Covet. Food. Why do you not understand that? Dogs will USUALLY guard food but not ALWAYS. Some dogs are not food motivated one bit. But their toys? Touch those and die. It is up to YOUR DOG what is high value, not you. That is why your theory is flawed: you think you get to make the call on what is high value. But you don't.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> Dogs. Do. Not. Always. Covet. Food.


Correct



Rkaymay said:


> Why do you not understand that?


I do



Rkaymay said:


> That is why your theory is flawed: you think you get to make the call on what is high value. But you don't.


When it comes to my dog. Yes. I can safely tell you without question or theroy, but practical experience. Food is the most coveted item my dog has.

That is why I stuck my hand in his food, and that is why I can safely do it now whenever I choose, and that is why I feel 100% confident my dog will NEVER bite anyone who tries to for whatever crazy reason. touch, take, play with his food.

That is why I know, one day the police won't come around and force me to kill my dog...

Ok now I'm done...phew, to each their own and whatever works for you. 

BTW I'm not angry or mad at anyone here. Opinions are what makes these forums great


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

laprincess, you made me laugh after reading the posts from the cancer stricken dogs and those over the bridge. Not that resource guarding is funny. 

Rkaymay is correct. It's whats high value for the dog. Rosco was bitten by a ball aggressive dog golden. Wish that owner had taught that dog not to guard toys. Where was it. Oh the neighbourhood park where the dogs play. Fast forward a year, the dog still guards his ball and his idiot owner still brings the dog and the ball to the field when the other dogs are playing nicely with each other. 

As someone with dogs who are not generally food or toy motivated, you have to be creative with training techniques that work for your dog to curb any unwanted behaviors. So read lots, check out various training videos and figure out what works best for you.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> Dog park rules say that small children are not allowed, nor is food
> 
> You're off the hook
> Not a valid scenario.



I'm not sure about Marcus' state but I live in the state north of him and we don't have fenced dog parks. We have parks that are dog 'friendly' meaning we have off leash areas. 

Children can and do walk through. Food is allowed. 

My nearest off leash area is part of a children's soccer oval. 

IMO it is valid


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Chritty said:


> I'm not sure about Marcus' state but I live in the state north of him and we don't have fenced dog parks. We have parks that are dog 'friendly' meaning we have off leash areas.
> 
> Children can and do walk through. Food is allowed.
> 
> ...


My experience is the county park - where dogs must be leashed - or dog park, which is fenced in and small children and food are prohibited.
Apparently, parks, like dogs, are all different, and different approaches must be taken with each one.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> My experience is the county park - where dogs must be leashed - or dog park, which is fenced in and small children and food are prohibited.
> 
> Apparently, parks, like dogs, are all different, and different approaches must be taken with each one.



Absolutely. I wish there were fenced in parks around here. I always take Millie on a long lead for fear that I will lose her to the bush land or worse, the road


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> What I don't understand is why everyone is so insistent on removing an instinct. Guarding is a far ingrained, instinctual behavior that enables survival in our dogs. Though they don't need to guard anymore to survive, the instinct is still present. It is stronger in some dogs than others. You are trying to teach the dog that it's INSTINCTS are wrong. Even 15 years of scruffing and alpha rolling a resource guarding dog will never overturn thousands of years of instinct. You may teach the dog a fear of guarding, but that instinct is always there, and if you are in the wrong moment instinct will override fear. You will NOT overrun instinct. It is not possible. But you can WORK WITH the instinct. What is so terribly wrong about that?



I am definitely trying to remove my puppy's instinct to bite.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Chritty said:


> I am definitely trying to remove my puppy's instinct to bite.


You won't be able to. You can retrain a new behavior, but the instinct will always be there in the back. It's thousands of years old.


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## Kora2014 (Sep 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> Good Golly... so much terminology, hard to keep track... it's like when the world decided to be all Politicly Correct
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could read your posts all day!!


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## readmeli (Apr 10, 2013)

I have a resource guarder. We got her at 9 weeks old from a reputable, amazing breeder and a top notch litter! I mean, AHHHH-MAAAZING! We hand fed her for a month. Around 16 weeks old she snapped at me when I went to take a chew away from her - cut me! Freaked me out. I quickly called my breeder and I was told I needed to "dominate" her, scruff her, roll her, swat her, squirt her - all of those things. OK. But um, hey, that wasnt working. It kept getting worse. And worse, and worse. Then it escalated to her guarding not just a chew or a toy, but the couch, and then ME.

How many bites did my boyfriend receive? No growls, very little warning. It just got worse. All while we did what we were told - dominate her, blah blah blah.

FINALLY, I came to the forums. I discovered other ways - I did all the reading and research on positive training. We did that whole thing where I tossed bits of steak from 12 feet away while my dear puppy had a chew. Toss, toss, toss. Slowly I was only 2 feet away! Then one day, she just saw me, dropped the chew and came running, tail wagging. I started doing it RIGHT.

Guess what? Now, nobody is afraid to give her a chew or take a toy away. Yes, there are times where I am *careful* and make sure to have a treat to trade with. But nobody is being bitten. She's learned to signal and let us know she's uncomfortable. 

If we had continued down the path of "I bought you, you OWE ME RESPECT" - My pup would be gone, dead at the vets office. Granted, my pup is an extreme case - maybe not all dogs would turn out like her, who knows. But I often wonder if I had gone down the better path to begin with if we'd ever had the nightmare we went through?


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

readmeli said:


> Guess what? Now, nobody is afraid to give her a chew or take a toy away. Yes, there are times where I am *careful* and make sure to have a treat to trade with. But nobody is being bitten. She's learned to signal and let us know she's uncomfortable.


I'm glad you found a method which works for you, that's the great thing about this site. So many different alternatives to try


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## West1134 (Nov 3, 2014)

I just wanted to update on our experience with Kona. Since the first two aggressive possessive reactions where he growled, showed teeth and then snapped at me, and I responded by scruffing him, and telling him no. I have since calmly told him to drop it, and then rewarded him with a treat once he did. There have been a few instances where he tried to run away with something in his mouth and I let him (as it wasn't dangerous to him) and then called him back told him to drop it, and rewarded him. Again, things are working well in this manner. However, the other night we gave him a new chewy treat that he's never had before, and wow he loved it! When we approached him (not to take it away mind you) he gave us a very hushed little growl, and then immediately started to run away. I grabbed him by his body and told him no, then to drop it. Upon grabbing him, he immediately went soft, and dropped the item. I told him good boy. Picked it back up, and gave it back to him. This happened one more time shortly after, and again I grabbed him told him no, and to drop it. After two occurrences, he quit growling, and running away from us when we approached, and I could just walk up to him tell him to drop it, and he would. I'd give him a treat, then give him that treat back to show that I wasn't going to always take it away permanently.

Overall, I feel like the little bit of dominance to show him that the growling and original baring of teeth/biting (which we haven't seen since I scruffed him the first two times) is not acceptable is working to keep that in check, and by doing some drop it commands followed by treats is also working.

A good combination of techniques has worked well for our situation. Certainly it may not work the same for others in their own unique situations, but I'm glad to be seeing positive progress with our pup!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Great news, that things are working out for you, thanks for the update


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