# 14 wk old snapping when corrected



## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Difficult...on the one hand my first reaction would be that you always have to be careful when you are at the same level as puppies,because they will and do go for everything. I have had Liza biting my nose when I thought she would lick me, big mistake...she must have been around the same age. On the other hand there is the feeling your wife had, that he did this because she was telling him to stop what he was doing. I have only raised two dogs, so I can only speak from my experience, but it sounds like you give the dog too much credit for really thinking through its actions...that may be what a child could do, start kicking because it is angry, but a 14 week old puppy? I hope other, more experienced people will see your post and give their opinion, but I think this was a one time thing. Doesn't mean he should be allowed on the furniture if you don't want it, of course, but the fact that she was on the ground with him, having her face at his height...like I said, I made the same mistake with Liza and got bitten too...


----------



## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

From the sounds / description of the bite as an armchair quarterback who wasn't there I would guess that it was a puppy bite or play bite that went horribly wrong. They don't realize those milk teeth are sharp and I have the scars on my hands to proove it (I'm a play fighter.) An authoritative down or off while NOT as his face level should be enough for him to listen.... if not start looking for other means. I agree giving him treats to get him off the couch will encourage him to get on it in the first place.


----------



## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Tayla did a lot of snapping and a lot of damage to me when she was a puppy. From my own experience NEVER be at face level with a snapper. With Tayla it was all frustration and impulse control issues. We spent 8 long months working on these issues before we got it resolved (mainly). She was a pinch biter and would go for skin or sensitive places every time. Find some impulse control things you can do with the puppy and work on them daily. Tayla still doesn't like to have a finger pointed at her face (from a previous owner before we got her at 4 months we suspect) and she will still crinkle her nose up to snap, but at 16 months she is starting to think a little about her decisions and rarely carries through. Those puppy teeth are sharp and frankly so are the big ones if they connect. Work with only positive reinforcement and you will be better off. Negative punishment never worked well for Tayla.


----------



## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

As another "armchair quarterback" I am also inclined to think it was a puppy bite gone wrong. Your wife probably zigged when she should have zagged :doh: Those puppy teeth are razor sharp and have many times been at the receiving end. Puppies bite and snap at each other but have lots of fluffy fur for protection, unfortunately, we humans don't.

This is one of the reason we never allowed kids to wrestle on the floor with our puppies. Puppies play rough and faces are easy targets.

I hope your wife is OK.


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm sorry your wife got hurt and I'm happy to hear that it wasn't deep. I agree that this wasn't intentional. Murphy is a mere baby and he has so much to learn. He will need you to teach him, calmly. Trust me I know how hard it is to stay calm with these puppies but it's a must.
Reacting with anger will backfire on you, of this I'm sure. Maybe not right now while he's a baby but it will catch up with you when he's older.

You asked if it wouldn't be rewarding him for bad behavior to give him a treat, the answer is...no. You have to teach him in a calm, clear manner that he understands. It sounds like the couch has become a very fun game of "catch me" for Murphy.
Puppies, dogs in general, don't sit and think of ways to mess with us. They don't think like that. They live in the moment and when you are chasing him around the couch that moment is fun for him.

Are you clicker training Murphy? It sounds like you need to get consistent with some training. There are many good training videos on youtube by kikopup.
The most important thing is to remain calm and don't react in anger, ever. That's just not fair to Murphy. There have been many times that I wanted to strangle Bentley but I had to put him in timeout to give myself time to cool off before I dealt with the matter.
Good luck. I feel your pain


----------



## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Sorry your wife got injured, sounds like an unfortunate accident. Firstly - dogs are not defiant or snotty, spiteful, nor do they do things to purposely upset us - they are dogs and learn through 'trial and error' they repeat what is rewarding to them and learn to avoid doing behaviors that are not rewarding. At 14 weeks nothing is 'clear' in his head, it takes time, repetition and reinforcement of the behavior you do want for the puppy to learn. Keep in mind what punishment teaches - nothing - it stops a behavior but it does not tell your dog what you WANT him to do. Putting him outside for disobeying a command he does not know teaches him nothing. If he had been taught a solid reliable response to the command - he would have done it.

Before a dog/puppy can understand the English language we need to teach them what the sounds mean and the relevence of those sounds to them. For example the word 'off' - if 'off' is to mean put your four paws on the floor - we have to teach the puppy that is what he is supposed to do when he hears that sound. So if you puppy gets on the furniture, calmly say 'off', stick a yummy treat in front of his nose and lure him off, when his feet are on the floor, give him the treat, then give him something else to do, toss a toy or give him chew bone. He will associate the treat with what he is doing at the moment, his feet on the floor, not with being on the couch. With practice he will learn that being on the floor is more rewarding than being on the couch. If he puts his paws on the counter, calmly say 'off', lure him off, then tell him what you want him to do, ask for a sit, or lure him into a sit if he does not know 'sit', and reward for the sit then lead him away from the counter and give him something else to do.
'Time outs' can be effective but they need to be short, less than a minute or two. Anything longer and your pup has no idea why he is banished to outside, all he knows is he is alone.
Keep in mind that how you behave, affects how your dog behaves. If your pup snaps at someone and you 'attack him', snatch him up by the scruff and put him outside for a 'very long time', it teaches him not only that you are unpredicatably 'dangerous' (aggressive) but that the presence of that person (or people) predicts bad things will happen, and it could make him untrusting of people. In a puppy 'snapping' is most often 'play' behavior (unless the person has done something to give him reason to try to defend himself)- if it should happen. 'Correct' with sharp sound, (hand clap or firm 'ACK'), and redirect away from the person and give him something else to do.
Understand that dogs do not inherently 'know' what is right or wrong in OUR world, they 'behave' how dogs behave in THEIR world. We need to be patient, calm, consistent and positive in our efforts to teach them a 'new language' and help them to fit into our world.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I really loved Joyce's post. I would like to add that at the time a little puppy chooses the inappropriate behavior of putting their paws or their whole selves on the couch isn't training time for the word off. Until the puppy really knows what the cue off means you should limit complete access to the couch so the pup cannot build an inappropriate behavior and it become a habit. 

Train the word/cue off using places the pup is allowed on.

What I have found really helpful is to decide what my puppy was allowed to do and what I actually wanted him to do when I was on the couch. Then I would train that behavior until my pup really knew it. I would then ask the pup to do this behavior before the pup had the opportunity to put those paws on the couch. 

So what do you want Murphy to be doing when you are sitting on the couch or on the floor against the couch? After you have figured that out and practiced it. It takes about 500 successful repetitions for a pup to understand the cue in context to one particular area then ask for that behavior before your pup has the opportunity to make the wrong choice. And if the pup makes that choice before you even ask reward that even more.


----------



## Heart O'Gold (Jul 31, 2012)

I'm sorry your wife was hurt. I tried to reply earlier but my phone wasn't cooperating. I think you've gotten some great advice now though. I hope you find that changing your perspective and using positive reinforcement methods helps a lot. It does take a great deal of patience and effort to raise a puppy. He is so cute, though, and that makes it a little easier.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Bringing his head even with her face. She told him OFF! and he snapped at her, cutting her nose from near her eye socket to the tip of her nose and sending her to the ER. Her perspective is that he knew precisely what she was asking him to do and he didnt like being told not to by her.


Tell your wife to stop snapping in your puppy's face. :uhoh: For one thing, a 14 week old puppy is not going to be anyone's angel when it comes to staying off furniture when his humans don't stay off the furniture. 

If you sat on the floor with him, you may find him less inclined to jump there. 



> He's frantic to stay away from us when this happens, it looks like "zoomies". When I catch him, I immediately take him outside to his pen for 15 - 20 minutes.


This is classic evasion, because he knows you are going to be mean and kick him outside away from his pack when you catch him.



> If I had been in the room and he had snapped at me or anyone. I would have snatched him by the scruff and he would have had a very unpleasant trip to his outdoor pen, along with a long time out.


And this would have increased the likelihood of him snapping out of fear and anxiety about being touched by you - much less "snatched" by his skin and hair and physically dragged outside away from his family. 

This is not proper training and as you have experienced, does lead to unpleasant results. Please listen to your trainers. 

Thanks.


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Hello! I was in the middle of replying on my phone when it died. The advice you have gotten is great! Puppies are fluff-heads when they are so young. I've had a few issues with Bear nailing me in the face either with his paws or his mouth during play and my husband has the same issue only with his groin region. 

This is a thread from when Bear was a wee pup (3 months old on the dot) and we had an accident between him and I that drew blood. 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/what-did-you-do/122592-food-aggressive-bad-incident.html

Since then, we've had a few accidents here or there (ironically not nearly as many as my cats have drawn blood). My boy is very mouthy so sometimes he'll try to give me a kiss and really use his teeth instead of his tongue... that's how I've broken or popped the wire on my braces twice. I've been accidental head-butt... in fact that happened just last week. Bear was trying to get up on the bed and I leaned over the side just as he jumped and BAM his noggin connected to my chin and I split my lip (both top and bottom) open on my braces. But I digress.

Back to the point - I think it was an accident and the puppy doesn't know any better at this point in time. If you want to avoid face-to-face time when correcting him, I would recommend leaving a 6 foot leash on him in the house that you can grab when he gets up on the couch. Then you just calmly grab the leash and say off and direct him down. It takes alot of repetition for a dog to "get it".

Since I've stopped writing and come back to finish this up - I cannot remember how old your pup is. I feel like you've only had him a few days and if the pup is especially young and recently seperated from their littermates, then they are also experiencing a shift in pack dynamics. The pup went from being in charge of what they want to do and being told you must obey me. Just something else to think about. 

Best wishes with the training and please tell your wife we are sorry to hear she has been hurt. Speedy recovery!!


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Megora said:


> Tell your wife to stop snapping in your puppy's face. :uhoh: For one thing, a 14 week old puppy is not going to be anyone's angel when it comes to staying off furniture when his humans don't stay off the furniture.
> 
> If you sat on the floor with him, you may find him less inclined to jump there.


Perhaps some misinterpretation, either intentional or not it is hard to read tone sometimes in this format. My wife was sitting on the floor with him, watching a movie while entertaining him.



Megora said:


> This is classic evasion, because he knows you are going to be mean and kick him outside away from his pack when you catch him.


As said we've offered him the option already of a treat or toy on the ground as well as the command. He's choosing to proceed with the behavior on the couch. I appreciate the interpretation of his behavior, what is your suggestion here? Owners on floor. Dog jumps up behind them and runs to other end of couch. I'm holding a treat and saying off, he runs back and forth ignoring my wife and I, his treats, or his toys - I do what at this point? Leave the room and abandon the furniture to him? I use the time out because I think it changes his mindset, gives him a break from the intensity. The duration gives me a chance to cool off from what I'm seeing as his directly acting as I do not want him to do. When I'm losing my temper it is better for me to take a time out from him, then be with him and be angry.




Megora said:


> And this would have increased the likelihood of him snapping out of fear and anxiety about being touched by you - much less "snatched" by his skin and hair and physically dragged outside away from his family.
> 
> This is not proper training and as you have experienced, does lead to unpleasant results. Please listen to your trainers.
> 
> Thanks.


I'm asking for the feedback and we've had quite a scary weekend, so I'll thank you again for this reminder. I do feel that I need to say this is *not* a situation where the dog is being regularly physically disciplined, acts fearful or anxious in any way with me or anyone else. He was having a lovely morning with my wife when out of the blue for this puppy he reacted with a snapping bite to being told a command he had been positively trained on hundreds of times.


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

You say you're looking for feedback. You've received feedback but apparently it's not what you were hoping for. Maybe if you give us more of an understanding of what kind of feedback you're looking for we could be more helpful.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

CRS250 said:


> My wife was sitting on the floor with him, watching a movie while entertaining him.


Do you have a dog bed in the living room for him? 

The reason why I ask is if it's not jumping on the furniture to be with their people, my guys are comfort-creatures. They like snuggling and curling up on cushions and pillows. The cushier the better. And especially if they smell like you as well.

Having a crate in your living room might be ideal as well, because it provides the pup with "his" place. You are not going to be locking him in there other than when you do not have time to pay attention to him. The door needs to be open and near where you are sitting so the pup feels happy going in there to chew on his toys or play.

Make a habit of sitting on the floor with the dog while he's up and loose, keep a leash on him if you want to prevent him from jumping on the furniture.... there is no reason for your puppy to be running loose if there is anything in a room that you want to keep off limits to him. That leash is not to yank or punish the puppy, it is to prevent access (meaning the puppy can't reach the couch because you are sitting with him away from the couch).

And going beyond that it will take kind training, positive reinforcement, patience, and consistency to get the idea into your puppy's head not to jump on the couch or whatever. 

Attacking him will only scare him. The corrections as you described are not appropriate training for a puppy. They are a physical attack on the puppy.

Snapping as your puppy apparently did is a fear reaction. As is the frantic evading of you. It may look like "playing" when they are zooming around very quickly and displaying cute behaviors, but in general they display these behaviors as appeasement while evading something that scares them. And you have to be careful going forward, because fear causes a variety of issues which become permanently set in place. 

If you have no control of your anger, then you should not be training or handling this dog. I'm being blunt here, because I believe you care about your puppy. 

I use corrections in training my puppy - but I assure there is always a difference between making an impression on a puppy to stop a behavior and doing something that causes the frantic appeasement/evasion behaviors from your puppy, as well as defensive snaps.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

You've gotten some really good advice here. One thing I've learned - and it may only be true of some dogs, but it's certainly true of Max - if I'm on the floor, I am playmate. Max will do what I ask (most of the time) if I'm above his level, standing, sitting even. But if my butt hits the floor, he is all over me like the best toy he ever saw. 

I've also been on this forum long enough to know that when Megora and Solinvictus and CharlieThree give advice, it's a good idea to listen to them.


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

As someone who raised an extremely "bitey" and lively dog puppy 7 years ago, I can totally sympathise with your frustration and am so sorry that your wife got hurt.

I would like to make a couple of observations if I may:

Any physical punishment from you will eventually backfire. By 6 months old he will really start to fill his frame and it will become far more difficult to physically remove him from a situation. If he becomes hand shy or displays avoidance behaviour, he is much more likely to react in a negative way.

It is very easy to spend most of your time saying "no" and shouting at a boisterous puppy. They will eventually learn to ignore your voice and shouting your head off will by then have very little effect.

Remember he is a puppy dog not a human baby. Its really easy to think that what works with kids will also work with the puppy. It doesn't.

Pick your battles! Decide on what you really cannot tolerate and work at improving these things on a one to one basis in a positive way. Use a gentle encouraging voice. If you then need to use a stern tone, he is much more likely to listen.

We found that the best way to stop him from demanding attention by jumping at us when we were sitting down was to fold our arms and look away. If this doesn't work, stand up, arms folded & turn away. This body language shouts to the puppy "not now". It didn't take long before this would stop his pushing immediately. Not a sound or word needs to be uttered!

I like the idea of the long lead to be worn around the house. If you need to remove him, you don't have to physically pick him up to do so.

Reward good behaviour and ignore unwanted. Trust me, this works the best!!!

I really hope that your wife recovers quickly and that you take on board some of the suggestions written here. Puppy raising can be stressfull but needn't be so bad once you have confidence in what you're doing.

By the way, the lunatic puppy we had 7 years ago is now the most wonderful natured kind and lovable dog you could ever wish to meet. So how they are as pups doesn't necessarily dictate how they will end up.


----------



## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Consider why your pup gets on the couch and what happens when he does. It is rewarding for him, dogs repeat behaviors what are rewarding for them, because he gets a response from you - a fun game of chase back and forth across the couch (in his mind) and attention from you. He is not associating your angery behavior with his behavior or being on the couch. All he knows is that you are angry, and when that happens HE is punished by getting put outside. 

Try this: When he gets on the couch, calmly walk away, (removing his reward for being on the couch), crouch down and call him to you, when he gets there praise and reward, and redirect to a toy or a game of ball. This teaches him, he gets no attention while on the couch, and that being on the floor gets him the attention he is asking for. 

It is not fair to him to punish him for your losing your temper. If you need to take a break from him and 'calm down' remove yourself, putting him outside because you are angry, serves no purpose at all. If I am working with my dog, and I get frustrated, the BEST thing I can do for him is to walk away. Why? Because it gives me time to calm down and think about what I am doing that is not 'working' for my dog. He is not being stubborn or 'stupid' he is telling me he doesn't understand what I am trying to teach him.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I just wanted to pull three things here to give some advice on. No judgment here. I don't think you've been rough with your pup or anything, but there are probably some things you're inadvertently doing to make the behavior worse.

First of all, I think there is a good chance your pup didn't mean to do bite your wife as badly as he did. I didn't see the incident, so I can't say that with much confidence, but puppy teeth are razor sharp, and a bratty nip could easily turn into a fairly long cut when the dog only meant to be bratty and wasn't being fearful or aggressive.

However, now you know he snaps like a brat and doesn't have good calibration of how strongly he's doing it, so I wouldn't be confrontational with him. It's bringing out a bad pattern.



CRS250 said:


> He jumps up or puts his front paws up on our couch probably once a day, we tell him a stern OFF! and try to distract him with a toy or treat away from the furniture. If he doesnt put his paws back down or fully jumps up then we give him a time out of less than 5 minutes outside.





CRS250 said:


> When I catch him, I immediately take him outside to his pen for 15 - 20 minutes.


As far as carrying him outside, it frankly sounds like he's pretty scared of that based on the other things you describe. If there was an element of this bite that was fear-based rather than just bratty, then you risk making it a lot worse with some of what you're describing here. If you grab him up quickly, even if you make an effort to be gentle, you could be scaring him badly enough that he feels defensive. He might be associating the stern voices with this. And if you've ever grabbed him roughly or carried him by the scruff, even a handful of times, that might have been unpleasant enough that it stuck with him.

Again, I made some assumptions here in order to give advice that might help. I'm not trying to accuse you of doing things you didn't do or of mishandling your dog.



CRS250 said:


> Our trainers are very "positive" types and their advice was that "There are a thousand wrong things for him to do at any time, don't tell him no or off, show him the right thing to do." "dogs dont do things to be defiant, He just reacted in the moment." I feel like eventually, yes, if I offer him a treat on the other side of the room I could get him off the couch, but isnt this just rewarding snotty, defiant behavior?


Dogs really don't plan any kind of defiance, so they're right on that score. Dogs do do "bratty" stuff, but which I mean that they will lash out to nip with no real intent to harm to say "leave me alone." It's possible that your puppy had some mix of that kind of thoughtless nippiness and maybe an element of fear. It's the fear that you have to be careful not to build on.

As far as what you describe in training him to get off the couch, yes, you're doing something that's not helping. If a puppy is jumping on the couch, I wouldn't lure him off with a treat. You can accidentally teach him that if he jumps on the couch, you'll produce a treat. I'm not sure if he's really learned that yet, but I really try to limit the luring I do with a puppy, since it quickly becomes bribing where they learn that if you're showing a treat, they can weigh whether obedience is worth it. I want puppies to think I am generous and might reward at any moment, not just when I'm holding a bag or showing a treat.

The bite, the running, and the furniture behavior might indicate that your puppy finds you unpredictable and a bit intimidating. So I'd stop doing anything that makes him feel that more strongly. Picking him up for back yard time outs is probably something to stop. I might keep a leash on him for the short term so there's no chase and grab element and you don't have to put your hands on him to keep him off the couch or to get him off of it if he gets up there. Firm, calm prevention of undesired behavior is the order of business. It's more important that he doesn't successfully get to be on the couch in the first place than it is to punish him for being up there.

I'd also stop being "stern" with this dog. It's almost certainly backfiring. He needs to learn that you are calm, predictable, and generous. Right now, he doesn't seem to trust you guys always are. Work through things he knows, and reward generously, but don't show him the reward until _after_ he does what you want. If your "positive" trainers are having you lure for everything, they're not very good.

It's really important to not have confrontations like this with your puppy from now on. He's shown that he'll nip and potentially fear bite (again, I didn't see it) when he's intimidated, so if he's physically forced or intimidated in the future, there's a very good chance he'll try biting again as a way of ending the confrontation. The more he practices that undesired behavior, the more likely it is that it'll become permanent. One nip like this isn't the end of the world, but it's a signal to be very careful not to inadvertently continue down that road.

Good luck!


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Brave said:


> This is a thread from when Bear was a wee pup (3 months old on the dot) and we had an accident between him and I that drew blood.
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/what-did-you-do/122592-food-aggressive-bad-incident.html
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link to your thread. I wish I had read it prior to going to the hospital. We had to scramble to try to prevent a "mandatory" 10 day quarantine as described on the intake form when we told them it was a dog bite. The doctor seemed to dismiss it entirely when we said it was a 14 week old puppy, we'll see however if animal control contacts us this week.

Murphy turned 15 weeks today so unfortunately I dont think it was pack dynamics anxiety. I'm hopeful it was just a play nip, but my wife distinctly felt like it was an intentional reaction to being told something he did not want to hear. The type of nip he'd give another puppy, not a vicious flee/fight attack. Just a warning snap that landed.


----------



## Sunny08 (Mar 6, 2012)

Sorry to hear your wife was hurt. We also have a no couch policy. But that does not mean she still does not try. 

When our girl was younger, the kids (and husband) were warned that she is still young and you are on her level. She did tend to get a little free with her mouth when they were are her level. She is still a pup and her teeth are very sharp. We had a couple of accidents but as they learned not to be on her level, they stopped.

There were nights that she would be very good in the couch area. However, on the nights that she was not and on those, she was sent back into the kitchen area. (it is just seperated by a gate, so she can still see us and the tv).

We started out with smaller time intervals and I kept a leash on her for when she tried the couch. As she made her move, I gave gentle tug and said no couch. As she behaved, she was rewarded with more den time.

She still trys to get up on the couch but now we say no couch. But as someone said once they learn the word...off.

However, we also have a bed in the den for her to lay on as well. This site is great to pull from everyone's experience!! Good luck!


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Megora said:


> Do you have a dog bed in the living room for him?


We do have a crate with dog bed in the room:









This crate with bed is in the corner of the room where the couch is located. If we remove the bed from the crate he get anxious and drags it back to his crate, or he humps his bed and bites/tears at it. He doesnt do these things if the bed is in the crate.



Megora said:


> Make a habit of sitting on the floor with the dog while he's up and loose, keep a leash on him if you want to prevent him from jumping on the furniture.... there is no reason for your puppy to be running loose if there is anything in a room that you want to keep off limits to him. That leash is not to yank or punish the puppy, it is to prevent access (meaning the puppy can't reach the couch because you are sitting with him away from the couch).


Thank you. I appreciate the leash advice and I will try this.




Megora said:


> Attacking him will only scare him. The corrections as you described are not appropriate training for a puppy. They are a physical attack on the puppy.
> 
> Snapping as your puppy apparently did is a fear reaction. As is the frantic evading of you. It may look like "playing" when they are zooming around very quickly and displaying cute behaviors, but in general they display these behaviors as appeasement while evading something that scares them. And you have to be careful going forward, because fear causes a variety of issues which become permanently set in place.
> 
> ...



Thanks you for the advice and noted. I feel I'm pretty good about judging my frustration level and taking a break. We do not let him loose without supervision so he goes into the crate pictured above which has his outdoor pen attached and he can freely move back and forth.

I'm not using a correction because I'm losing my temper. It's an extreme situation that I need to change his mindset immediately - Cornering and barking at one of our cats is the last situation where I used this and as I said this was done *three* times in 7 weeks of training. The last incident of this with the cat was over a week prior to the bite of my wife. To my knowledge she's never done any physical technique like this and is completely dedicated to positive training.


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Bentleysmom said:


> You say you're looking for feedback. You've received feedback but apparently it's not what you were hoping for. Maybe if you give us more of an understanding of what kind of feedback you're looking for we could be more helpful.


I am grateful for any and all replies, this is the feedback I was asking for. As obviously I feel like what I have done to this point has had a very bad result for my puppy - a serious bite that resulted in my wife needing medical attention. Hopefully it was an accident but if the consensus here is that it could be a fear reaction to a pretty mild physical correction administered sparingly. I need to reevaluate both the source of this advice ( The Art of Raising a Puppy - New Skete) as well as my reasons for doing it.


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

laprincessa said:


> You've gotten some really good advice here. One thing I've learned - and it may only be true of some dogs, but it's certainly true of Max - if I'm on the floor, I am playmate. Max will do what I ask (most of the time) if I'm above his level, standing, sitting even. But if my butt hits the floor, he is all over me like the best toy he ever saw.
> 
> I've also been on this forum long enough to know that when Megora and Solinvictus and CharlieThree give advice, it's a good idea to listen to them.


Thank you, very insightful and I'm really hopeful this is essentially what happened. I will ask my wife to stand up before giving him a corrective command like off. This makes a lot of sense to me - that he reacted as he would to a playmate when being sternly told something he didnt want to hear.


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm glad you're looking further into it, I wish more people did that. I have rescued abused dogs and a fearful dog can be really dangerous. My fur tends to get ruffled when it sounds like someone is losing their temper with a puppy because I've lived with the results of that.
My apologies if I came off sounding harsh, it wasn't meant that way.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

If you are referring to the original New Skeet book, it is very outdated. I think they may have put out another more recent book that has changed some of their approach. But yes, some of the methods in the older New Skeet book have been proven to cause the opposite reaction than what you want, and there are many newer methods that have better results.

I think your puppy was just being a brat, your wife on the floor on his level made her seem like a playmate, and other puppies are chew toys to each other. I'm very sorry she got hurt and I hope it heals quickly, but I do not think it was in anyway a deliberate bite on the puppies part.


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

mylissyk said:


> If you are referring to the original New Skeet book, it is very outdated. I think they may have put out another more recent book that has changed some of their approach. But yes, some of the methods in the older New Skeet book have been proven to cause the opposite reaction than what you want, and there are many newer methods that have better results.
> 
> I think your puppy was just being a brat, your wife on the floor on his level made her seem like a playmate, and other puppies are chew toys to each other. I'm very sorry she got hurt and I hope it heals quickly, but I do not think it was in anyway a deliberate bite on the puppies part.


I'll check the print date. It was a gift from friends who used it with their boxer. I had considered it as being geared towards German Shepherds, who I believe are a "harder" breed than Goldens. I didnt think to employ much of the harsher techniques it describes with Murphy, but then I didnt think he'd ever lacerate the face of any of our family members.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Thank you for taking the time to respond to everyone - it's really nice to see someone who wants to know if they've done something wrong, and if so, how to correct it. (I remember the first time Max drew blood - on my husband, they were wrestling, puppy teeth slashed - I freaked!)


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I agree with what everyone has said, you've gotten some really good advice and I think it'll help a lot. I think it's huge to not give corrections at face level. I have two pups at home and their favorite game is snapping like alligators at each others faces. So when you're face level you always have to be ready to dodge those razor sharp teeth! My dogs still snap at my face when they get overly excited (always just playing). They get a firm "No Bite" reminder seconded by a "Only Kisses" or "Gentle" and then they go back to being gentle. As others have said I'd skip the firm correction for right now because of the possibility that your pup is dealing with some fear/anxiety. 

My one new tidbit of advice is to start working on the "Gentle" command. If you do a quick search you might be able to find a thread here about how to teach it or on youtube. What we did is put a treat in our closed fist hold out the hand and wait for the pup to be gentle. They'd always nibble or try and bite at first and then they'd start licking, as soon as they started licking I'd say "Gentle" and give them the treat. My trainer recommended doing this with peanut butter because the dogs natural reaction is to lick the sticky pb instead of chew. You might want to wear gloves to avoid getting cut by those razor sharp puppy teeth. What I like about the "Gentle" command is its not a reprimand, so when they're being too rough you can just redirect the behavior instead of punishing them, which sounds like will be much better for your pup. You can work your way up to associating faces with being gentle as well. With my 8 month old I can feed him treats from my mouth and he delicately takes the other end of the food without touching me - not quite there with my 6 month old yet. (I wouldn't do this with the 15 wk old pup, but it can be a goal you strive for.) Hope this helps!


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

coaraujo said:


> I agree with what everyone has said, you've gotten some really good advice and I think it'll help a lot. I think it's huge to not give corrections at face level. I have two pups at home and their favorite game is snapping like alligators at each others faces. So when you're face level you always have to be ready to dodge those razor sharp teeth! My dogs still snap at my face when they get overly excited (always just playing). They get a firm "No Bite" reminder seconded by a "Only Kisses" or "Gentle" and then they go back to being gentle. As others have said I'd skip the firm correction for right now because of the possibility that your pup is dealing with some fear/anxiety.
> 
> My one new tidbit of advice is to start working on the "Gentle" command. If you do a quick search you might be able to find a thread here about how to teach it or on youtube. What we did is put a treat in our closed fist hold out the hand and wait for the pup to be gentle. They'd always nibble or try and bite at first and then they'd start licking, as soon as they started licking I'd say "Gentle" and give them the treat. My trainer recommended doing this with peanut butter because the dogs natural reaction is to lick the sticky pb instead of chew. You might want to wear gloves to avoid getting cut by those razor sharp puppy teeth. What I like about the "Gentle" command is its not a reprimand, so when they're being too rough you can just redirect the behavior instead of punishing them, which sounds like will be much better for your pup. You can work your way up to associating faces with being gentle as well. With my 8 month old I can feed him treats from my mouth and he delicately takes the other end of the food without touching me - not quite there with my 6 month old yet. (I wouldn't do this with the 15 wk old pup, but it can be a goal you strive for.) Hope this helps!


Thank you. I'm going to suggest this to my wife and ask her to work the gentle command. She dislikes the licking so hasnt worked it with him. For me Murphy was a natural on the gentle command, I was actually surprised how gentle he was for the food as he was in the midst of biting everything else in sight when we started this command. I think because we hand feed him the majority of his meals and he never bites our hands during meals. I've actually been using prolonged gentle commands with him for about the past 10 days as he's blowing his puppy coat. I hold him with a treat for being brushed (Furminator is awesome!)

My wife has been interrupting his meals and doing the one piece of kibble in the bowl treatment that Ian Dunbar suggests. Working his impulse control, making him sit and wait till the bowl is completely on the ground before he eats etc.

I've been doing 'leave it' training with him, treats on his paws while he waits to get them etc. This is far and away his least favorite type of training though and he gets bratty pretty quickly.


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Some people don't like the Furminator but it's been a real life saver for us with Ky's thick coat. If someone breaks in they may leave with jewelry but not my furminator LOL


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Bella's dog bed is right in front of the couch. You have to step over it to sit down. She's never tried to climb up there. I realize this wont work for all dogs, but it's worth a try. Take that bed out of her crate and put it by the couch for a few days. 










Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Bella's dog bed is right in front of the couch. You have to step over it to sit down. She's never tried to climb up there. I realize this wont work for all dogs, but it's worth a try. Take that bed out of her crate and put it by the couch for a few days.
> 
> View attachment 162506
> 
> ...


Thanks. We will give it another try. He seems to be so anxious when it is out of his crate. He bites and tears at it, humps it a couple times, then drags it back to toward the crate. However it has been probably 3 weeks since we tried this, so perhaps he'll chill out on this behavior.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

CRS250 said:


> Thanks. We will give it another try. He seems to be so anxious when it is out of his crate. He bites and tears at it, humps it a couple times, then drags it back to toward the crate. However it has been probably 3 weeks since we tried this, so perhaps he'll chill out on this behavior.


Maybe you could get another one?


----------



## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

CRS250 said:


> I'm hopeful it was just a play nip, but my wife distinctly felt like it was an intentional reaction to being told something he did not want to hear. The type of nip he'd give another puppy, not a vicious flee/fight attack. Just a warning snap that landed.


We've gone through this also. Fierce, vicious little puppy slashing my husband's nose, stem to stern. Direct attack after being corrected. 

Chill. It's still puppy behavior. Maddie (the fierce and vicious) is now gentle as she can be. Yes, as a small puppy (two+ months old) she would lunge at Josh, teeth bared. Just like a little kid would stick his tongue out. It just went terribly badly here.

The worst situation was after Josh's nose was slashed and she lunged at him the next week. He really, really yelled at her and shook her and dumped her in her crate. That was the low point for all of us: Josh, Maddie and me. We were all depressed. Josh is the kindest of people, LOVES dogs, but the puppy was wearing us down. Maddie was down, not truly understanding what went wrong. I just felt we had made a huge mistake.

We started crating her more, kept our faces far from where she could reach and started puppy school. Within a month it was much better, by two months she almost never lunged. 

She's a super dog now. And we can play wrestle with her and never get bitten.

From one who lived to tell the tale, I wouldn't count your puppy out quite yet.


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> We've gone through this also. Fierce, vicious little puppy slashing my husband's nose, stem to stern. Direct attack after being corrected.
> 
> Chill. It's still puppy behavior. Maddie (the fierce and vicious) is now gentle as she can be. Yes, as a small puppy (two+ months old) she would lunge at Josh, teeth bared. Just like a little kid would stick his tongue out. It just went terribly badly here.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this perspective and it's great to learn it's not unheard of for a golden to do this. Neither of the previous GR's my family had when I was a child had any of this type of behavior, but both were raised very differently from the "positive" training method that we've been using. Thinking on the way you treated a dog was very different back then.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

You could teach a go to your bed or mat. 

or
Teaching a default settle by kikopup





 teaching a default settle





 part 2


----------



## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

CRS250 said:


> Thanks for this perspective and it's great to learn it's not unheard of for a golden to do this. Neither of the previous GR's my family had when I was a child had any of this type of behavior, but both were raised very differently from the "positive" training method that we've been using. Thinking on the way you treated a dog was very different back then.


Yep, our previous golden never did this either. We have a 'confident' golden this time. She expressed her feelings at that moment. We, of course, expressed ours. 

Now at eleven months, she's a lovely, mostly, lady--at least when it comes to lunging and biting.


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

This was breakfast this morning, I wanted to show how well behaved he is and that we do train the gentle command. The snapping bite was completely out of character for him. When the video starts he hasnt had anything to eat since dinner the night before - 12 hours. He's been up for about 10 minutes, long enough for a morning stretch and potty break.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgi4Fcsrl6Q&feature=youtu.be

Every experienced dog person asks immediately what is on his collar so I'll forestall those queries it is the transponder which opens his dog door.


----------



## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

He's adorable!


----------



## Goldens R Great (Aug 19, 2010)

What a good boy! Your cute little man seems to be a patient little fellow!

Thank you for sharing the video!


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

He IS adorable! I was watching thinking that Max would have been in my lap - Murphy is VERY patient and very gentle licking your hand.  That just made me smile, thank you for sharing it


----------



## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

He is adorable. Do you hand feed every meal?


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Max's Dad said:


> He is adorable. Do you hand feed every meal?


We hand fed all meals for the first 2 weeks or fed him part by hand, part from kong. Now we start his meals by hand so he doesnt gulp his food too quickly, then have him sit for his bowl, finish in his kong if he is being crated soon after. He's eating Pacific stream puppy formula, 1.5 cups per serving 3x per day. We use honey or peanut butter in his kongs to make the food last along with the occasional banana.


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Here is another brief clip of my working with him this morning for his breakfast.

breakfast2 - YouTube


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

He seems to be totally focused on you. Awesome! I love these clips!


----------



## USAFWife74 (Jan 13, 2013)

What a darling!!! I'm sorry your wife was hurt like she was, but it does seem to be an innocent mistake. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Murphy is very sweet. He sure responds to the positive reinforcement with his food. Looks to me that the bite incident with your wife was most likely an accident, brought on in part because she was down on his level, and he thought of her as a "playmate."


----------



## Webster (Feb 23, 2013)

oh yeah, Webster is 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Yep, nice puppy. Go back to breathing again. It was a puppy mistake.


----------



## goldenwarn (Mar 14, 2013)

Its Kind of like a toddler that hits or bites....they don't know their own strength or what they are doing....it's just a reaction to them. That is how they play in doggie land with their litter mates So it seems normal to them. I'm sorry about your wife's bite but hopefully it's a one time thing and being young he just did it out of play. As hard as it is to not be angry with them (and it is so hard) redirecting works as their little brains are just not wired to understand the consequences of their bites yet. Hang in there it does get better!!!!!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Murphy's 3rd round of vaccinations was tonight, so I brought up the incident to his vet for her opinion. Unfortunately from the way my wife described what happened it wasnt the vets opinion this was a playful situation. She said "Well now you know he has this in him. Have you done any dominance training with him?" Her perspective was that he doesnt necessarily have "pack respect" for my wife. I asked her if she meant the style in which Cesare Milan trains, and she said exactly...

She's asked us to be more aware of this behavior and cautious with him, continue manners and obedience classes when he is old enough. As well as to at a minimum meet with a behaviorist whom she recommended after his second round of obedience classes(unrelated facility) for Murphy to be evaluated. I'm going to call him next week and talk it over to see what his thoughts are as well as the prices for this evaluation / coaching.

Thanks again to all who have contributed to the thread here.


----------



## MissyPup (Mar 6, 2013)

I've learned that while vets are experts in medicine, they aren't necessarily experts in behaviour, so consulting a trusted behaviourist is a good idea - but the vet may not be recommending the best person.

I can also say that any correction I do with Missy that involves a loud voice only incites her further, makes her snappy or excited. Reinforcing good behaviour (when the bad behaviour isn't happening) seems to be the only way to reduce the bad behaviours. While it makes it tough in the moment, reality is that she isn't learning from being corrected - that only temporarily stops the bad behaviour. I've learned to control my voice and always speak in lower tones if she's acting up - perhaps this is just what she needs and won't work for others, but it's working for her so far!


----------



## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I would urge you to explore a variety of behaviorists if you can... not just the one your vet recommends. Vets are still human and will share a wide range of opinions... for example, our vet directs to a behaviorist who studied under Kathy Sdao, who not only rejects the dominance theory of training but also tends to reject most concepts of hierarchy training when applied to dogs (including some that are currently considered "positive")... so quite the opposite of what is being recommended to you from someone equally qualified to assert an opinion on the matter. Try to explore as many options as you can to find what works for your boy. In addition, try not to confuse a dog who has shut down and repressed feeling that may one day resurface in a dangerous manner with a dog who gladly and calmly makes an active choice to be your teammate. I can only share my opinion with what form of training will accomplish joyful and consistent results, you will have to look to and trust your own dog to find your own answer.


----------



## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

It's odd to me that your vet directly contradicts the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior with his/her advice. As someone mentioned, though they are experts in animal health, many vets have limited knowledge of other areas -- such as behavior and nutrition. Here's some good reading for you if you are considering finding a behaviorist to sort this out:

Statement on the use of punishment in training:
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

Statement on the use of dominance theory in behavior modification:
http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

My personal opinion is very much that which you have already received here and I'm not sure that going to a behaviorist will be necessary.... BUT it may be just what you (and especially your wife) need to gain some peace of mind. Just make sure you work with someone who isn't going to make the situation worse.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Reading through all this, I'm just curious, will your pup lay down and let your wife handle feet and individual nails, check ears, lift lips etc. without any reaction?


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

nolefan said:


> Reading through all this, I'm just curious, will your pup lay down and let your wife handle feet and individual nails, check ears, lift lips etc. without any reaction?


Certainly not without any reaction, but definitely not a negative one. He's 15 weeks old, any time he's handled he thinks it's play time. We typically use a treat to try to keep his attention while we brush him and tag team him to cut his nails. 

This video was 2 weeks prior to the bite & shows his feelings about my wife pretty well - she had been out of town on business for the week so I had him in the yard to greet her when she came home.


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

Jersey's Mom said:


> It's odd to me that your vet directly contradicts the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior with his/her advice. As someone mentioned, though they are experts in animal health, many vets have limited knowledge of other areas -- such as behavior and nutrition. Here's some good reading for you if you are considering finding a behaviorist to sort this out:
> 
> Statement on the use of punishment in training:
> http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf
> ...


This is the recommended trainers website. It looks like the evaluation would be somewhere in the $200 - $300 range, while his full training regimen is $2000. I think we'll stick with our current plan for now and see how comfortable my wife feels after manners and obedience class. Thank you for the links on the AVSAB positions.

Euro-Training Kennels Dog Behavior Training


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just to reiterate much of the good advice that you have gotten. That whole dominance way of training has gone by the wayside...when you raise your level of aggression, you also raise your dog"s level of aggression. No behaviorist I respect puts any stock in Cesar or the Monks of New Skete. And I never tell my clients to use those methods as you can get into fear aggression issues that you created by using those methods. When I got my sweet Laney girl, she was very confident. Her breeder told me to pin her to floor until she submitted. Why? Because her breeder deemed her a dominant dog before eight weeks of age. Well, there was nothing dominant about her, she had a fantastic temperament. So as directed at 7.5 weeks of age I pinned her to the floor. In about one second I realized that if I persisted she had more perseverance than I did... And I would turn her into a fear biter. So instead, I started working in obedience with her and we developed a bond. She was a terrific pet and competitor. With the wrong handling, I know I would have turned her into something she wasn't. All dogs after her were in obedience classes from 8-10 weeks on... I cannot emphasize training classes enough...


----------



## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

One thing that struck me while watching the video, is that your wife talks to him in a high pitch. Even my eldest dog (therapy dog for almost two years now) gets more excited when people talk to her in a high pitch. Maybe it makes a difference if she lowers her voice a little, more in a commanding voice than an 'asking' voice, if you understand what I mean. And your signaturepic is adorable!


----------



## CRS250 (Dec 31, 2012)

inge said:


> One thing that struck me while watching the video, is that your wife talks to him in a high pitch. Even my eldest dog (therapy dog for almost two years now) gets more excited when people talk to her in a high pitch. Maybe it makes a difference if she lowers her voice a little, more in a commanding voice than an 'asking' voice, if you understand what I mean. And your signaturepic is adorable!


Thank you. I think I understand what you mean. I noticed we both do it when I watched the video today, as well as the quick change to a harsher tone with NO! when he grabbed her keys. 

I got some great pictures of him relaxing in my wife's arms the day I took my signature pic. I'm glad you like it. Here are a few more of our photogenic boy.


----------



## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

While I'm not an expert at all, looking at that puppy in your various videos, I don't think you have a problem. As others have said, take your baby to puppy obedience classes.


----------



## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

After watching the videos, as well as your comments, I agree that you have a good puppy. He is sweet. Try to avoid situations where accidents could occur, and everything will be fine.


----------



## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I agree with the people who have talked about this being much more likely when on the floor. Winston is 8 months old and he still puts his teeth on us all the time if we are down on the floor or if he is in the bed and we are lying down with him. Of course, at 8 months his mouth is much softer and it never hurts or breaks the skin. We still try to discourage it obviously but it is a work in progress, so don't despair!


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Love the video with your wife coming home  He obviously adores her  The reason I was asking about handling feet, body etc. is that can be one of the things that a behaviorist will ask on a questionnaire and can be indicative of a bigger issue. Glad that it's not something he is defensive about and you all work on his care together, makes things much easier.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

CRS250 said:


> Murphy's 3rd round of vaccinations was tonight, so I brought up the incident to his vet for her opinion. Unfortunately from the way my wife described what happened it wasnt the vets opinion this was a playful situation. She said "Well now you know he has this in him. Have you done any dominance training with him?" Her perspective was that he doesnt necessarily have "pack respect" for my wife. I asked her if she meant the style in which Cesare Milan trains, and she said exactly...
> 
> She's asked us to be more aware of this behavior and cautious with him, continue manners and obedience classes when he is old enough. As well as to at a minimum meet with a behaviorist whom she recommended after his second round of obedience classes(unrelated facility) for Murphy to be evaluated. I'm going to call him next week and talk it over to see what his thoughts are as well as the prices for this evaluation / coaching.
> 
> Thanks again to all who have contributed to the thread here.


If this behaviorist your vet recommended uses Cesar Milan methods, do not walk away from them, RUN away from.

Your puppy does not need dominance handling, you will create the very problems you want to avoid.


----------

