# Question about corrections



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Have you done walking fetch with alternating birds and bumpers in a line? I got all kinds of refusals and corrections in with Bally n that step because he'd run right over a bumper to grab a bird.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Yep! I sure have and I thought that would do the trick lol but I don't know he will walk by a bird if he is heeling and fetch the bumper instead or vice versa. Honestly I think he thinks it's a game testing his control and likes that


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

OK have been thinking about it. At the stage you're at you have to be the judge. If you feel you have been thorough in your FF/collar fetch steps then move on. You will have PLENTY of opportunities along your way in yard work to make corrections. Just wait till you try to stop him with a whistle  
The risk many people make is glancing over pressure because their dog naturally does it. The flip side is making an issue of heavy pressure on a dog who doesn't really need it to drive the point home. If you feel you have been diligent and thorough at applying suitable pressure at each step, then don't sweat it. He's probably understanding it more than you think. Sounds like a naturally gifted dog...keep it up!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Does this help? 

Even though I may not get a chance to correct, I ear pinch while holding on to the collar. I HOLD HIM BACK WHILE PINCHING. I finally let him lunge and quit pinching when he gets the bumper/bird. This lets him know what turns off the pressure.

PS Don't be a wimp about it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

George makes a good point. Sometimes we have to provide the "resistance" in order for the dog to understand complying to turn off pressure. Easy to do in walking fetch or a short pile by sending the dog and pulling back on a leash. Make him drag you. If he balks then ear pinch him to it or collar. Unfair but that's a way to get some pressure in. I wouldn't do this more than a time or two or you'll start creating weird behaviors you don't need.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> So I was thinking this out with my friend and we are putting our heads together because Proof is a bit mysterious to us.
> 
> So I'm wondering if any of you guys have any ideas to throw out there that I'm missing.
> 
> ...


FTP is not a correction drill. It teaches a dog to "Go" on a known command thru pressure. He did nothing wrong, but was nicked anyway, see the difference?
Anyhow,
If your just trying to see if your dog understands the collar as a correction you could try leaving some food on the counter. My dog use to steal spoons of the counter.

Put the collar on Proof and wait awhile until he forgets its on. Then let him see you put some food on the counter. Walk away to an area where you can see the food and go watch tv or something. If Proof starts sniffing around, get ready to nic him if he jumps up on the counter. Don't say anything to him if he jumps up there, just nic him.

If he jumps down, you know he understands the collar, plus you just stopped counter surfing!

Insert any bad habit your dog has here.
Drinking out of toilet bowl
Getting in garbage 
Eating cats food
Barking at doorbell


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Gee, George! I've not been a wimp about it! 
I've done this step too with holding him back. IN fact, yesterday my friend actually didn't agree that I did this and he is NO wimp about pressure.

I think Poppy has a good point. I'm going to try this. I'll leave the collar on and let proof roam around the house. He loves my bathroom trash in fact, I have been trying to stop him of getting into it. I will let him get into it and then use the correction.

See, that is why I come here! you guys always have lots of suggestions!

And Anney that is the reason I'm hesitant to do much more, no reason to shut him down if he is doing everything right.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Gee, George! I've not been a wimp about it!
> I've done this step too with holding him back. IN fact, yesterday my friend actually didn't agree that I did this and he is NO wimp about pressure.
> 
> I think Poppy has a good point. I'm going to try this. I'll leave the collar on and let proof roam around the house. He loves my bathroom trash in fact, I have been trying to stop him of getting into it. I will let him get into it and then use the correction.
> ...


 I think that you will have to be very careful if you are going to do that. You risk hot spotting the dog. I did this in obedience class, food on the floor and nicd Buffy when she went for it on a recall. Guess what---she flared the spot even without food for WEEKS. Hot spotting is not the same as teaching to escape from the pressure. Hot spotting can create superstitious behavior.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

gdgli,
Not sure what you were trying to teach your dog by doing this.
We are talking about seeing if the dog understands the collar. We are not giving a dog a command and fighting thru a factor(food of all things,really?) 

It works more like a bark collar, the dog needs to figure it out for himself. In my examples I give are things the dog has been told several times before and still does them. Now if we add the collar to the mix and leave out the verbal command and the dog stops doing it immediately,we know the dog understands the collar, right?

If the trash basket in the bathroom becomes a hotspot as you call it, so be it. That worked twofold. Dog stays out of trash and we got our answer that the dog understands the collar as a correction for something it did wrong.
Easy peasy


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Poppy2

In doing competition obedience, one of the exercises is to do a recall into a front followed by a finish to heel position. The training facility is used by many. There is squashed cheese, squashed meatballs, dropped liver treats, as well as bird droppings from the birds that sneak in. The most difficult thing to get a retriever to do (at least for Buffy) is to run by these distractions. At the suggestion of my obedience trainer I tried this with the collar. We wanted avoidance behavior for the distractions on the floor. BTW, at one of Buffy's trials, there was food on the floor and it distracted her. Avoiding the food or white spot is OK but the superstitious behavior resulted in her avoiding the spot, not the food. That is not OK. I understand from your response that you obviously do not do competition obedience. Superstitious behavior creates an unneeded problem.

Poorly timed corrections resulting in superstitious behavior is one of the shortcomings of misinformed collar trainers.

Also, food on the floor is a reality of the obedience game. Trainers are loaded with treats and drop them. Give obedience a try to see what is involved.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Totally agree G - same way that the underground fence works. Dog learns to avoid going to that particular spot or it will get zinged. 

lol - I have an area in the yard where we used to have a fish pond. Well I always told the dogs to get our of that area. I never even nicked them. Guess what happened once we took the pond out and threw a mark in there? OOPS They were at the edge of the mulched area looking at the bumper and looking at me - "are you crazy?"


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Totally agree G - same way that the underground fence works. Dog learns to avoid going to that particular spot or it will get zinged.
> 
> lol - I have an area in the yard where we used to have a fish pond. Well I always told the dogs to get our of that area. I never even nicked them. Guess what happened once we took the pond out and threw a mark in there? OOPS They were at the edge of the mulched area looking at the bumper and looking at me - "are you crazy?"


Okay, I gotta tell a story about the then three year old son of a close friend of mine.

Joey and his mom were walking in their side yard when the neighbor's dog came to the edge of his yard, but wouldn't come any farther despite Joey's calling to him. 
Joey asked him mom, "Why won't he come over to me? I want to pet him." Joey's mom replied, "Well, they have an invisible fence." 
Joey asked, "How do you know?"
True story.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

gdgli said:


> Poppy2
> 
> In doing competition obedience, one of the exercises is to do a recall into a front followed by a finish to heel position. The training facility is used by many. There is squashed cheese, squashed meatballs, dropped liver treats, as well as bird droppings from the birds that sneak in. The most difficult thing to get a retriever to do (at least for Buffy) is to run by these distractions. At the suggestion of my obedience trainer I tried this with the collar. We wanted avoidance behavior for the distractions on the floor. BTW, at one of Buffy's trials, there was food on the floor and it distracted her. Avoiding the food or white spot is OK but the superstitious behavior resulted in her avoiding the spot, not the food. That is not OK. I understand from your response that you obviously do not do competition obedience. Superstitious behavior creates an unneeded problem.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your explanation! You are correct , I surely have zero interest in the OB games,especially now.
Still having a difficult time figuring out how this has anything to do with this thread.We are trying to see if the dog understands a collar correction thats it. We are not talking OB training.

I'm betting Proof has already stuck his head in the trash basket by now and got a nic for it. I'm betting the op has there answer as well.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Okay, I gotta tell a story about the then three year old son of a close friend of mine.
> 
> Joey and his mom were walking in their side yard when the neighbor's dog came to the edge of his yard, but wouldn't come any farther despite Joey's calling to him.
> Joey asked him mom, "Why won't he come over to me? I want to pet him." Joey's mom replied, "Well, they have an invisible fence."
> ...


hahaha - worse part of the invisible fence is when the dog goes thru the fence because of a squirrel or rabbit and cannot make it back in. Had a dog in the street last year; we did not know who it belonged to. So I get a call at the office to come and check on the dog. I finally got the lab to come to me and took it in our outside kennel. Then checked with the neighbors. Found the owner and took the dog back. Poor dog did not want to go into the yard. Luckily it did not take me too long to realize that poor dog could not get back in because he was zinged each time he approached the "fence". 

While I had an incidence with Rose jumping the wooden fence to chase a deer I personally do not like the invisible fence and do not have one. 

Also I do not make many collar corrections either.

Major: Breaking at the line, yup - correction, cheating the shore, yup - correction. After all there are only two types of dogs. Dogs that break and dogs that will break; there are also only two types of dogs: dogs that cheat and dogs that will cheat. 

Slow return, yup come come come associated with low nick nick. Hesitant on a blind, back back back with low nick nick nick.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Okay this is also a funny story about the invisible fence. My friend has one and her boxer is nuts. Katniss came to play but Rocky is so nuts he'd chase her all around and she was getting sick of it. Suddenly she ran into these bushes that he's not allowed to go in and the fence blocks Rocky from going into them. He just stopped as she runs into them. So she lays down and he is just whining for her to come out and play. It dawned on Katniss that was a safe place, ha ha. So after that she'd come out run around and then knew to go into those bushes as he couldn't get her!! Dogs are funny!!!

As for the collar, I don't use it too often but this trainer said he needs to have it down pat to go any further. It was in particular to cheating the bank. Now, I seemed to train Proof (seemed because I'm sure I'll see him cheat in the future) without the collar. At the *moment* he is not cheating and I've set him up LOTS to cheat. 

I talked to this man today and he did indeed say the trash was a good idea. I haven't had a chance to try it out because I trained all morning and had errands to do all afternoon. And I'm tired now. But this morning during training I did a lot of sits while I walked out and threw marks for Proof. If he got up I would say sit and nick and he'd sit back down. I figure if he was afraid of the collar or didn't realize he was being corrected he'd come running to me. I'd even nic him without saying sit and he'd sit his butt down. so I'm pretty sure he knows it is a correction. 
I'm going to keep doing nic to the pile which he did a lot today and the man told me to take it to water soon so I will but really I'm just going to fly by the seat of my pants and go with my gut with the collar. ugh! I hate this beginning foundational training, I just worry the whole time about doing it right.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

his is what I did with Darcy when she cheated getting back in the water on the return. I nick sit her as she ran the bank. I walked around the pond myself, put her back at the point of entry; Walked back and called her. The moment she would want to run the bank I sat nick sat her again. Back to the original point of entry. It helps a lot if the bird boy is there to get her back to the original point of entry but it is also good exercise when you do it by yourself. 

I am funky about correcting in the water. I have seen a young pup handled by a young person. Dog was in the water with the duck in her mouth. She was going back and forth sideways and not getting back in the water. The young handler nicked her hard with a come. Dog dropped the bird and would not pick it back up. Spent another half and hour just to get the dog to go back in the water with a hand thrown duck. That dog has not been the same since. 
As a novice at this I respect the collar in the same way one should respect the gun. You have to know how to use it and when and know of it's consequences.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

well on the de-cheating I sort of did that. I worked with a rope pull first so he'd come right back with no choice. Then I went to the channel. Proof knows to sit on a whistle in the yard but isn't quite there in the field and that is the way I want it for right now. I'm not focusing on that. But when he'd get out I'd run to him and say no. Then I'd make him come back to the point he got out and toss the bumper back to the line and make him go back in and lead him down the shore until we were back. Then I'd do it again but the next time he'd even think of going there I'd say No, Here and when he'd make the right choice shower praise on him. 
It seemed to click with him. I know yesterday he did really great and the guy I was training with was impressed with him and said to keep training him the way I'm training him. 
He is just adamant I get on that collar asap.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

One thing about Proof is when he starts to do something, like cheat going in or break or whatever, he is pretty good at stopping the minute I say no! and turning around and starting over again. He doesn't like to start all over again so that pressure is working on him at the moment. I know that down the line I might not be so lucky. I understand that.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> He is just adamant I get on that collar asap.


Yep, Proof's learning fast!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

MoP,
Your notes about Proof's progress are truly a great value to this forum! 
Firstly, it's exactly what this forum is about ... amateur trainers who are training their dogs to work in the field.
Secondly, in addition to Proof learning, you seem to be learning this field stuff and you are sharing what you learn with the readers.
Thirdly, you seek thoughts and ideas about how to train your boy. Your inquiries promote thinking and allow discussion of different ideas and theories.
And fourthly, you allow us to enjoy your successes with Proof ... though the successes may be mere baby steps, that's the way that dogs are trained, even if they are superstars.
Thanks!
FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Update:
Finally a break through. Not so much fun for Proof but we'll get through it. We finally were training today and his fetch was put to the test and he failed. He refused a fetch! 

So the man I was working with took the time to help me really get this straight. So we'll see how it progresses but I have high hopes. Its hard but we'll get through it.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Very Cool!
Sounds like you had a AH, HAA moment.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Update:
> Finally a break through. Not so much fun for Proof but we'll get through it. We finally were training today and his fetch was put to the test and he failed. He refused a fetch!
> 
> So the man I was working with took the time to help me really get this straight. So we'll see how it progresses but I have high hopes. Its hard but we'll get through it.


a true force fetch is never easy for the handler or the dog but it builds a relationship that is hard to break between the two. i know you have some struggles but you have a HELL of a dog or you would not have the mentor you have. you as a handler have grown more in the last 3 months than anyone i know keep up the good work and keep pushing! and please never forget to remind me i am not pushing my dog. i want the best dog to win, he maybe black and 6 months younger but won't be to long before we are our best worst enemies!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Thanks, B! You've been a tremendous help to me. I couldn't ask for a better training Partner!

Last night and this morning we worked again on the CC. While it is difficult for both of us, he has figured it out last night and then I tested to see how how'd it go this morning and he was immediately ready to go. It didn't take long for that so now I'm to move on to staggered bumpers. Was told this morning since he was FF with the ear that it is making this part move along faster so hopefully that is the case. Go Proof and go me!


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

krazybronco2 said:


> MillionsofPeaches said:
> 
> 
> > Update:
> ...


HOF nominee I think,right?


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