# Stud Help Please!!!



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Generally, the more accomplished and titled a dog, the higher the stud fee. An untitled, unproven albeit pointed male would have a relatively low stud fee in most cases. Once a dog has started producing, his offspring will also figure greatly in his stud fee. A dog with several older litters but no titled offspring won't command a very high stud fee. Stud fees can vary by area of the country too. Usually the first breeding or two for a new stud dog is at a lower price, to give the dog a chance to prove himself.

In Scout's stud packet I included his pedigree, clearances, several posed and unposed pictures. I also included summaries of several of his offspring, their clearances and accomplishments, his strengths and weaknesses, height and weight, temperament, lines that worked well with him and lines I did not recommend based on his pedigree, what he could "fix" in a bitch and what he would not fix. In addition, I included pictures and information on the dogs and bitches in his pedigree for at least 2 generations, as well as his sisters, and their strengths and weaknesses.

And of course a copy of the stud contract.

It was quite a large packet  and not inexpensive to send out. Now with electronic packages, I think it would be much easier and cheaper!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Nowadays I have noticed that stud packets are a lot more basic than mine was 

Here is a link to one on a boy I greatly admire and who is on my short short list:

http://maverickstudpack1.shutterfly.com/

and another one

http://www.shorlinegoldens.com/mariner.html

and a nice one here

http://www.swfarmer.com/Goldens/Whiskey/Stud Packet/Stud-Packet.htm


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

The Trio said:


> Ok everyone I wasn't sure where to post this. I need to put together a stud packet and figure out what to charge for stud fees for Teddy. Anyone have a stud packet they can send me so I can look at one and copy paste some information. Teddy has 5 points toward his Am championship. So he is not finished. He does have all of his health clearances. His OFA cardiac will be updated soon. He has been to a cardiologist and passed. Do you charge less for a non finished dog than a finished? What is the going rate? What information do you include? Any and all help. I have to have this information before Monday. Thanks!!!!
> Laura


I hope I don't misspeak, but isn't Helen Dorrance his breeder? She is someone who I would consider to be a "master breeder," someone who has been breeding for decades and knows her lines and their strengths and weaknesses. She is also an AKC judge so she sees goldens from all across the country too--she has a great opportunity to see what other breeders are doing. Have you spoken to Helen? I would think she would be guiding you on this and being your mentor--if not, and I were you, she would be the first one I would turn to for guidance and advice.

Tahnee has given great advice--and I would think that someone like Helen Dorrance would be able to give a lot of guidance especially tailored to you. JMHO. Hope this helps!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Oh, I agree-his breeder would definitely be very helpful! I forget, because I bred most of my dogs myself. Helen would be a great asset in helping decide which lines and bitches would work with him, and which ones would not be a good combination.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Having a mentor is huge. Especially if you are going to manage a stud dog for the first time. It's not just about _him, _you also have to know how to handle a bitch in season, be able to properly house her, get her to a vet for progesterone testing, AI's if needed, etc., and to know how to facilitate the actual mating if live covered.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Hey I think it might be fun to do a "pretend packet" for dogs I don't plan on using for stud. I would enjoy thinking about and gathering that kind of information even if I didn't plan on using him for breeding


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Having a mentor is huge. Especially if you are going to manage a stud dog for the first time. It's not just about _him, _you also have to know how to handle a bitch in season, be able to properly house her, get her to a vet for progesterone testing, AI's if needed, etc., and to know how to facilitate the actual mating if live covered.


Very true-it's a huge responsibility to have the care of someone's beloved bitch in your hands, and to be responsible for making sure the breedings go well. I used to use a lot of vacation time taking bitches who weren't mine to the vet for testing


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Tahnee GR said:


> Nowadays I have noticed that stud packets are a lot more basic than mine was
> 
> Here is a link to one on a boy I greatly admire and who is on my short short list:
> 
> ...


The stud packet on Whiskey is for a golden that Helen Dorrance bred!!! What are the odds on that?

BTW, there is a Maverick daughter here in South Florida who is adorable. She went BISS first show out at age 6 months. Promising journey ahead! (sorry to hijack this thread but there is at least the Helen Dorrance reference--Trio, I would contact Helen if I were you--perhaps she helped with Whiskey's stud packet?)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Very true-it's a huge responsibility to have the care of someone's beloved bitch in your hands, and to be responsible for making sure the breedings go well. I used to use a lot of vacation time taking bitches who weren't mine to the vet for testing


Yep. As the stud dog owner, it is your job to do everything humanly possible to achieve a pregnancy. (Sometimes it goes beyond humanly possible...) And every one can be very different from the last.


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

Tahnee GR said:


> Nowadays I have noticed that stud packets are a lot more basic than mine was
> 
> Here is a link to one on a boy I greatly admire and who is on my short short list:
> ...
> ...


Too funny. I know this one. Gorgeous.


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## The Trio (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks guys for the help. Helen has arranged for two breeding since she currently has Teddy in Austin. I was just curious as to what everyone else was doing for stud packets and contracts since this is my first time as a stud dog owner. Helen contacted me about my stud fee's and I'm just not sure as a first time stud dog owner what I should be doing.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I would ask Helen what she thinks would be fair. I would imagine she has a pretty good idea of the going rates.

If the bitches are nice and the pedigree interests you, you could always ask for a puppy


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Stud dogs are a dime a dozen. For a young unproven dog I would keep it simple. Wait and see if he puts puppies on the ground and what they look like before getting too detailed with it.
With the internet, stud packets are nearly obsolete. They are also expensive to produce nice ones. I only send stud packets to people who are VERY certain they will breed to my dog. They can get the clearances from OFA, pedigree from k9data and photos online. 
Now as far as a stud contract, feel free to email me at JPG[email protected] and I'd be happy to email you Fisher's contract as an example. 
For Fisher's first few breedings I charged a much lower amount than I do now...now he has kids titled in all venues, OS qualifiers, kids with clearances, etc. 
But it's all relative. There are people asking the same stud fee I do, for dogs never been bred. I think it's crazy but if someone can get it, go for it. 
If Helen is arranging the breedings, is she the one managing them or is that left up to you. NOTHING will give you a MIGRANE like managing breedings. If you've never done it before, oh hell, even if you've only done a few -- either work with a bitch owner who is very experienced and can basically tell you when and where to show up, or have Helen hold your hand through the whole thing. 
Best of luck!!!


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## The Trio (Apr 24, 2010)

I just didn't know what to include in the contract. I have been told from many kennel club members and other people how a breeding can go horribly wrong if you don't have a good contract. People who were friends becoming enemies and so forth. I just want to be fair and protect Teddy. I'm not sure if you have to ask for a puppy back up front or wait until the litter is old and see how they turn out or if you have to declare that later instead of money. I currenly with my first kid on the way do not want one, but I might in the future. Is it a general rule of thumb to give the bitch's owner a repeat breeding if only 3 puppies are born? Do you only charge half the stud fee if the breeding doesn't take? Those are the kinds of questions I really want to know. I haven't been able to talk to Helen yet because I am working all weekend and she was judging, but I plan to talk to her tonight. She has been a great mentor. I am just one of those people who does a lot of research. I like to pick and choose from a general group. That and since there were so many breeders on here I figured everyone plus Helen could give me the best ideas that worked and were fair for both parties involved.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

The Trio said:


> I just didn't know what to include in the contract. I have been told from many kennel club members and other people how a breeding can go horribly wrong if you don't have a good contract. People who were friends becoming enemies and so forth. I just want to be fair and protect Teddy. I'm not sure if you have to ask for a puppy back up front or wait until the litter is old and see how they turn out or if you have to declare that later instead of money. I currenly with my first kid on the way do not want one, but I might in the future. Is it a general rule of thumb to give the bitch's owner a repeat breeding if only 3 puppies are born? Do you only charge half the stud fee if the breeding doesn't take? Those are the kinds of questions I really want to know. I haven't been able to talk to Helen yet because I am working all weekend and she was judging, but I plan to talk to her tonight. She has been a great mentor. I am just one of those people who does a lot of research. I like to pick and choose from a general group. That and since there were so many breeders on here I figured everyone plus Helen could give me the best ideas that worked and were fair for both parties involved.


*soapbox warning*

I'm an attorney by trade, and HATE looking at home drafted stud contracts that are clearly unenforceable. Do you have an attorney friend that wouldn't mind doing one for you as a favor or for cheap?

You can't get one from a breeder friend in Florida or MA (even if drafted by an attorney) and assume it's going to be enforceable in your state. Heck, it may not even be valid in their state.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

The Trio said:


> I just didn't know what to include in the contract. I have been told from many kennel club members and other people how a breeding can go horribly wrong if you don't have a good contract. People who were friends becoming enemies and so forth. I just want to be fair and protect Teddy. I'm not sure if you have to ask for a puppy back up front or wait until the litter is old and see how they turn out or if you have to declare that later instead of money. I currenly with my first kid on the way do not want one, but I might in the future. Is it a general rule of thumb to give the bitch's owner a repeat breeding if only 3 puppies are born? Do you only charge half the stud fee if the breeding doesn't take? Those are the kinds of questions I really want to know. I haven't been able to talk to Helen yet because I am working all weekend and she was judging, but I plan to talk to her tonight. She has been a great mentor. I am just one of those people who does a lot of research. I like to pick and choose from a general group. That and since there were so many breeders on here I figured everyone plus Helen could give me the best ideas that worked and were fair for both parties involved.


Most all of your questions have been about the money/contract aspect. Aside from that, are you going to handle the breedings and care of the bitches? As several of us have noted, there is quite a lot involved, and a lot can go horribly wrong with that end of it, too.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

what I want to know is if he is supposed to send flowers and/or candy the next day?


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> what I want to know is if he is supposed to send flowers and/or candy the next day?


LOLOL, wouldn't it be more appropo for Teddy to bring her a Bully Stick?


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

I would suggest since he is unproven, why not simply charge a breeding fee upfront (example: $ 100 - 200) which covers the bitch staying with you, running her in for progesterone (bitch owner pays for actual test) and all other breeding expenses (AI's, surgical etc) are also the bitch owners responsibility. IF the bitch becomes pregnant and whelps at least 3 puppies, then the bitch owner must pay up to the agreed upon stud fee minus the $ 100 - 200 she already paid. So if the agreed stud fee is $ 800, she would owe $ 700 or 600. This way if the bitch does not get pregnant, you do not have to return money or the bitch owner is not out the entire stud fee and no puppies. 

You can still give them a repeat breeding If they choose to come back and if not, no hard feelings as you are not holding on to her stud fee money and the bitch never got pregnant! I think this works for most bitch owners as they invest a lot of money upfront before the breeding *hopefully* takes!


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> I would suggest since he is unproven, why not simply charge a breeding fee upfront (example: $ 100 - 200) which covers the bitch staying with you, running her in for progesterone (bitch owner pays for actual test) and all other breeding expenses (AI's, surgical etc) are also the bitch owners responsibility. IF the bitch becomes pregnant and whelps at least 3 puppies, then the bitch owner must pay up to the agreed upon stud fee minus the $ 100 - 200 she already paid. So if the agreed stud fee is $ 800, she would owe $ 700 or 600. This way if the bitch does not get pregnant, you do not have to return money or the bitch owner is not out the entire stud fee and no puppies.
> 
> You can still give them a repeat breeding If they choose to come back and if not, no hard feelings as you are not holding on to her stud fee money and the bitch never got pregnant! I think this works for most bitch owners as they invest a lot of money upfront before the breeding *hopefully* takes!


Also, adding on to what PointGold has brought up, who is responsible for what? Teddy is owned only by you, bred by Helen and Dr. Tatum; you live in Nebraska and Teddy is currently with Helen in Austin, TX. Is he going to be bred there, over in Texas? Or bred in Nebraska? Sounds like he is being bred in Texas, but it's difficult to say.

Anyway, who is going to be responsible for what? Especially if something goes wrong since PointGold stated that although it isn't often, and all due care is taken, everyone has to make sure who is responsible for what should something go wrong--and also cover all bases about money and responsibility for the breeding too.


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## The Trio (Apr 24, 2010)

Hi Poin
Hi Pointgold and Rappwizard,
You are correct. Teddy is in Texas with Helen. He is doing the breeding in Texas. Helen has been incharge of everything so far. After talking to her last night it cleared up a lot of things. We are just charging a $100 breeding fee up front and then after the litter is whelped the remander of the stud fee is due depending on the outcome and how many puppies. Since the bitches are all local to Texas (if there really is such a thing as local since it is so big) They are staying with Helen or their owner. I've decided if one needs to stay with me then I am not going to charge them a boarding fee. You are all correct though. There is a lot to be done and the responsible parties have to be outlined. I am going to talk to Helen more again tonight. I know how I am with my baby going out without me so I can only imagine how the bitches owners feel. I mean you are talking to the same person who won't fly Teddy because I don't want to stress him out/upset him. I'll drive all over the country before I ship him. My highest prority is safety with my dogs and other people's dogs/bitches. As far as things going horribly wrong. Oh I know all to well. A friend and kennel club member's bitch was bred once and the breeding took, BUT some of the puppies reabsorbed, the whelping went bad the bitch had to have a c-section and of the three remaining puppies 2 were born dead and the last one didn't survive. She was driving to Cheyenne, Wy for progesterone tests and breeding every other day (which is over 100 miles one way) plus paying for the stud fee. After the c-section the bitch had to be spayed because of an infection. So ya, I know what you mean by things going horribly wrong. I've been at breedings where the bitch just plain attacked the male. For what ever reason she did NOT like him and was not going to be bred to him. Before the owners could separate them she knocked out one of his teeth. As far as stand beside AI's I've never done one so I would have to enlist in some help from someone else or my vet. I know there are many other things I'm not listing, but I am taking many things into consideration and Helen is helping me SO what I don't know I'm going to have to ask. I'm doing a lot of reading and communicating with you guys/gals on the forum. I wanted to ask about the money and contract's first because I wanted to get that out of the way and have it settled because one of the bitches owners wanted to get that settled. All of you're advice has been very helpful in reminding/informing me on what I need to be doing/thinking about. Is there anything else you (the forum members) can think of? As far as a contract being legal I would have to draw up one that would be legal in Texas and Nebraska. Nebraska is really lenient with contracts. A verbal agreement is just as good in Nebraska as a written contract as long as there is a witness other than the two parties involved. So I am not sure how that would go because it is crossing state lines and if you want to get really picky you would have to have a notary sign it on both ends. Ya, that adds a whole new ball of wax to the mix. I hope that answered some of your questions because you have answered a lot of mine.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> what I want to know is if he is supposed to send flowers and/or candy the next day?


I managed one of my friend's Collie stud dogs for them when they first started out. The next morning, I received at work a nice flower arrangement and a note saying "Thanks for last night. Love, Ted". HAHAHA! The office rumor mill nearly exploded. (The Dogfather's name is Bernie...)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hahahahahaha!!!!



pointgold said:


> i managed one of my friend's collie stud dogs for them when they first started out. The next morning, i received at work a nice flower arrangement and a note saying "thanks for last night. Love, ted". Hahaha! The office rumor mill nearly exploded. (the dogfather's name is bernie...)


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