# training in general



## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

There are a lot of threads on here regarding training on various issues. 
I am nobody, but I believe my dogs mind pretty well and here is what I believe. 
I think a dog has to learn to "mind" first. You need to pay attention to details. If you are going to give a command it needs to be obeyed. It starts with the little stuff. You need to be consistant and not give a command unless you are prepared to enforce it. When I say "sit" I mean "sit" and I intend for you to do it the first time I say it. 
It is really unfair to the dog if one time you say sit and he doesnt and you say it a dozen more times and he finally sits then you say good dog and give him a "cookie", then the next time you say sit once and get mad at him for not doing it right away. 
Too many people think that once their dog learns the meaning of sit while on a leash and with a cookie in hand that they now have taught their dog to sit.. well you kinda have, you have taught the dog the meaning of the word sit. But, they really are not minding until they are doing it off-leash, at a distance, and with distractions. In my training, I create distractions for the dog.. tell her to sit (or in my case blow the whistle) and if she doesnt I catch her up... take her butt right back to the spot I told her to sit while letting her know I am not at all happy and command her to sit her butt down.. my command of sit has to be a higher priority than the cat that just walked by. It takes a lot of patience and if the early training is done with consistancy, then things are much easier later on. 
This consistancy on simple commands then carries over to more complex things. Once they learn that they have to mind, then it is just a matter of teaching "stuff". 
Don't give that command unless you are prepared to take the time to enforce it.


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Oops....I've been a little lazy lately. Lucky's been standing there with a "make me" look in his eye as I say "sit, sit, SIT,......." 

Thats a definite kid rule too.


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I have a question though....Do you praise your dog when you make him sit. Or do you save the praise for when he obeys. I assume the latter....


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

With things that my dogs have been thoroughly trained and reinforced extensively to do, I say the cue once and if they don't respond I give some sort of prompt (usually luring with empty hand, or if they break a stay gently leading them to where they were) and then say "thank you" when they do. But it's rare that they don't respond the first time because of the way I add the cue ...


----------



## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Now remember...this is me... kate and others are going to have other methods.. 
when I am training a puppy to sit, lie down, stay, heel, etc... i use lots of praise and treats...
as an adult dog..no.. at the puppy stage I am teaching vocabulary and rewards make it easy to teach... then later comes the stage of ..."these are orders"... but I am consistant. 
I have an overall goal for my dogs.. I know exactly what I want. And these are basics I build on. I need my dogs to listen and mind at great distances so I absolutely must have them mind close in. 
And my girls are not tail tucked and head drooping pitiful examples of a golden. They are tail waving, prancing, and smiling. They crawl up on the couch with me to watch ballgames and take a nap.
One place they may be somewhat different than most of your alls' dogs is that they almost totally ignore other dogs. We train with other dogs every day and in trials and tests they are not permitted to interfere with another dog that is working... so they have got to where they pretty much ignore other dogs. They play with each other in the house and with my sons dog when he is over.


----------



## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I guess I should say that ..yes I do praise.. especially when we are doing new and difficult stuff.. but the old basics..no ..
IMHO...you can overdo the praise thing.. it becomes meaninless to them if you are forever praising them for every little thing.


----------



## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Greg, the new behaviorist we're consulting for Brandy doesn't believe in treats. I'm very anxious to get her started with him to learn his methods.


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Is he certified by ABS or ACVB? Most behaviorists' methods are based on operant and classical conditioning, both of which often use treats ...


----------



## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

ok..just what is a dog behavorist?.. what do they do?.. 
I do understand altering dog behaviour?.. is that what they do?..


----------



## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

Kind of like Dr. Phil???....lol...


----------



## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

to funny.....


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

From Wikipedia (since I didn't know how to explain it): 

"A dog behaviourist is a new breed of dog trainer, who typically uses scientific methods such as operant conditioning to achieve canine behaviour modification ... Most behaviourists practice gentle and subtle techniques that achieve their aim without using any form of aggression, stress, or pain and nearly all deplore the use of devices that cause pain and anxiety, such as prong, choke or electric collars. Typically a behaviourist works one-on-one with the dog and its owner ... The principles used by the dog behaviourist are essentially simple and use common sense practices, hence the success rate with behavioural modification is high ... None-the-less many people see the behaviourist as some sort of shaman with magical powers and often expect instant results. A good practitioner can get a difficult dog to respond very quickly and often with seeming ease. This serves to reinforce this image, but magic it isn't, it is strongly based upon scientific research" 

In the US the two most widely accepted certification programs are given by the Animal Behavior Society and American College of Veterinary Behavior, and in order to be correctly considered an animal behaviorist, one must have a PhD in animal behavior ...


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

katieanddusty said:


> From Wikipedia (since I didn't know how to explain it):
> "A dog behaviourist is a new breed of dog trainer, who typically uses scientific methods such as operant conditioning to achieve canine behaviour modification ... Most behaviourists practice gentle and subtle techniques that achieve their aim without using any form of aggression, stress, or pain and nearly all deplore the use of devices that cause pain and anxiety, such as prong, choke or electric collars. Typically a behaviourist works one-on-one with the dog and its owner ... The principles used by the dog behaviourist are essentially simple and use common sense practices, hence the success rate with behavioural modification is high ... None-the-less many people see the behaviourist as some sort of shaman with magical powers and often expect instant results. A good practitioner can get a difficult dog to respond very quickly and often with seeming ease. This serves to reinforce this image, but magic it isn't, it is strongly based upon scientific research"
> In the US the two most widely accepted certification programs are given by the Animal Behavior Society and American College of Veterinary Behavior, and in order to be correctly considered an animal behaviorist, one must have a PhD in animal behavior ...


Katie, dang it...now I hate these behaviorists. I cant help but think...who took dodge ball out of school? Who believes competition is harmful because it hurts self-esteem? Who wants to make no one the valedictorian so that no feelings are hurt and all are treated the same regardless of acheivement...its those darn Phd people.


----------



## krbshappy71 (Dec 30, 2005)

I prefer to do treats on a random but frequent basis. The dogs are playing the slots with this one. If you don't obey, you will be corrected and definitely will NOT get a treat. If you do obey, immediately, you will most likely get a treat but if not you will definitely get praise, a snuggle, baby-talk, etc. Its a win-win to obey. I've started to add the clicker to our training but only for the command "come" and its working really well. The golden puppy learned it IMMEDIATELY and our other dogs are jumping on the bandwagon because of the treats involved. Eventually I'll wean down the treats a bit but to me its the quickest way to set in a new trick/command to their brains. If your dog ignores you except for food rewards, might want to check who's Alpha lately. Just my thoughts.


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> Who wants to make no one the valedictorian so that no feelings are hurt and all are treated the same regardless of acheivement...its those darn Phd people.


They have a PhD in animal behavior, not anything wierd.

My school calls everyone with a 4.0 or higher a valedictorian, and the person with the #1 class rank is the salutatorian


----------



## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

katieanddusty said:


> They have a PhD in animal behavior, not anything wierd.
> My school calls everyone with a 4.0 or higher a valedictorian, and the person with the #1 class rank is the salutatorian


Salutatorian
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
In Canada and the United States, the title of salutatorian is given to the second-highest graduate of the entire graduating class of an educational institution. This honor is traditionally based on grades and overall GPA, but consideration is also often given to other factors such as extracurricular activities. (Princeton University chooses a "Latin salutatorian" based on the ability to write and deliver a speech to the audience in that language; thus, the speaker is typically a Classics major.) The title comes from the salutatorian's traditional role as the first speaker at the graduation ceremony, delivering the salutatory speech.

The top graduate is referred to as the valedictorian.


----------



## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Our high school calls it high honors ..anything above a 4.0


----------



## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Maggies mom said:


> Our high school calls it high honors ..anything above a 4.0


I didn't get any type of honors for my 2.5......doesn't seem fair....


----------



## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

RickGibbs said:


> I didn't get any type of honors for my 2.5......doesn't seem fair....


And I ain't proud of how I did in high school.....that's why I'm so hard on my kids about their grades.... You can never go back and fix them.


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

mblondetoo said:


> Salutatorian
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> In Canada and the United States, the title of salutatorian is given to the second-highest graduate of the entire graduating class of an educational institution. This honor is traditionally based on grades and overall GPA, but consideration is also often given to other factors such as extracurricular activities. (Princeton University chooses a "Latin salutatorian" based on the ability to write and deliver a speech to the audience in that language; thus, the speaker is typically a Classics major.) The title comes from the salutatorian's traditional role as the first speaker at the graduation ceremony, delivering the salutatory speech.
> The top graduate is referred to as the valedictorian.


Yeah well tell that to my school ... they're crazy ...


----------



## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

Maybe you should just copy the post.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think the number one factor in training dogs is being able to read them. I was amazed yesterday when I was walking my new, terrified Golden girl- her first time on a leash. She's an adult, but had never been leashed before I rescued her. She was displaying every obvious sign of fear a dog can display and people left and right wanted to walk right up and pet her. People are such idiots! It has not escaped my notice that even many people training their dogs at my local dog club do not realize their dogs are bored, stressed, etc... 

Dogs respect confident, yet kind handlers. Handlers who understand them. Handlers who give the dog reason to naturally follow and feel calm and secure with them. Dogs take to people who no how to read their body language, and in turn commuicate back. 

It's far more understanding your dog, than which method you choose. Any of them can be used with success.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

If using a more forceful method, the dog is praised each time he sits (for example) even if you have to push him into a sit. With positive training methods (luring) the dog is offering a sit reliably BEFORE you add the voice command.


----------



## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

The guy I'm taking Brandy to is a behavioral specialist. I'm not sure of his educational background, but we watched him with his dog, and we watched him do some preliminary work with Brandy. 

He was excited, focused and Brandy was soon paying very close attention to him without the benefit of treats. I would not want to take her to anyone who would break her sweet, happy spirit.


----------



## eRetriever (Mar 31, 2006)

I find my Golden hanging her head staring at the ground. I always bring her out of it on a cheerful note. This has become common place any ideas?


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Does she just do it whenever, or only in a specific room, or only right when you come into the room, or anything?


----------



## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Did you get her as a puppy or as an older dog?


----------



## eRetriever (Mar 31, 2006)

*Golden Hanging Head*

Harley (2 year old female) was purchased when a year old for the purpose of self training as my "service dog". I've known some dogs profesionaly trained some how quit and released from the program. With my $ and time invested(now one year of training) I am not so easily giving her that option.

With head hanging she looks trans like comatosed for as long until I coax her back to reality. She is seemingly otherwise happy with the best I being myself paralised in a wheelchair.

Apparently not many other Golden owners experience this. Thanks to those who have responded.


----------



## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

A couple of things. First, have you had her thyroid levels checked? That could be one reason why she tends to "zone out" like that. 

Another thing could stem from that first year of her life. If no one paid attention to her, she would have had no reason to look up and make eye contact. That's the way Jenna was when we got her, and we've made a lot of progress since then. 

Keep posting and let us know how she's doing.


----------



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Have you had her checked out by a vet?


----------

