# I Am At A Loss....



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

what is the consequence for lack of effort?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

It may be that she is already soured to training. Dogs learn at different rates and what may be appropriate for one may be too much too soon for another. It's very easy to do - I did it with my very first sheepdog, Zeke. 
I would suggest backing off from training completely - just continue with basic obedience. Add the other activities in s-l-o-w-l-y, one by one, over a long time and introduce them as a game and not a formal training session.
Zeke eventually went back on sheep, but the lessons I learned with him helped me with my other border collies when I got each in turn.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have this problem with my Casey. A combination of making him watch me work other dogs, just gathering him up and crating him when he went mentally or physically visiting, letting him really know when I was pleased and just increasing the distractions to kind of go at the stress from another direction seemed to work in his younger years. He periodically needed to go on a NILIF plan and I would pair his least favorite exercises with hikes and this worked for many years.

He is now mostly retired and seems to enjoy being 'just' a pet for the most part - but he is still worked daily so he doesn't feel left out...he honestly just doesn't have a good work ethic and once it stops being fun (for him), he finds other ways to occupy his time. Since my dogs are honestly pets first, I got a puppy  who does want to work; Casey can be a lovable hug-bug and I get to work my 2 younger dogs. 

I would like to say that he was pretty much retired way too young (6 years) because it just seemed to be an uphill battle to keep his interest and spirits up under the competitive environment.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> what is the consequence for lack of effort?


Usually stopping the activity. I don't know what else to do. I don't necessarily see that as a "consequence" I think she is getting what she wants. 

I do think Teddi will be like Casey. I plan to do two rally trials with her this fall (novice) and for fun. Heck I am not doing ANY training with her. I need to learn to read the signs but I firmly believe at the novice level she can do all that will be asked. 

The thing is "I" need a dog to play with. Once I get Baby Hootie she will be off the hook. Until then, I need to do SOMETHING! Belle is better than expected so I am working her, but "I" want to do things with Teddi. It's just she doesn't. 

Ann


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> It may be that she is already soured to training. Dogs learn at different rates and what may be appropriate for one may be too much too soon for another. It's very easy to do - I did it with my very first sheepdog, Zeke.
> I would suggest backing off from training completely - just continue with basic obedience. *Add the other activities in s-l-o-w-l-y, one by one, over a long time and introduce them as a game and not a formal training session.*


I absolutely agree with this... 

It sounds like she might not be mature in her head yet for 'testing' and is getting burned out or bored with 'work'. She might not be ready for shows yet (even if she's been in them already). So the training has to be backed all the way down to very quick exercises and very quick rewards. And do at least three super quick and happy sessions a day. 

So like the retrieves, go back to take/hold/give exercises. Then once she's holding and giving the item to you, build "bring" distance. Then work the retrieves early in the morning, and in a non-distraction and non-stress spot (I usually "play" in the long upstairs hallway at our house). Work with treats and don't overdo. 

As Lilliam said... go slowly.

I got the 'quit' message from my last dog when he was seven, and we got as far as we could in obedience and were just 'playing' with agility. When he was balking and pinning his ears back about going into the agility ring at our training place, I quickly retired him. But he never stopped working or lost his joy for doing the obedience work. Right down to the same week we lost him, he'd jump up and go into heel position. 

He had been a very independant dog all his life and not interested in treats. But tricking him into thinking he was playing a huge game every single time helped.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Is Teddi your pup with hip dysplasia? Maybe she is in pain? Swimming might not be painful.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Well it sounds like you're gonna have to build a pond! j/k

Annabel is a lot like that. I might find that she enjoys doing something, but as soon as I set "rules" to the game she starts to shut down on me. We tried so many different dog sports trying to find something that fit her best, but it was the same result every time. I did put a CDX and an RE on her. I think she could have gotten the UD with a lot of work (she was trained in all the exercises), but with other dogs more interested in playing my game with me I decided it wasn't worth the effort.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks for all the thoughts. 

Yes Teddi is my HD/ED dog however she is not displaying ANY discomfort in what SHE wants to do. Just not doing what is asked of her. She jumps over the back of my 27" lab in the back yard, I set up a 12-16" jump and ask her to jump and she refuses. She runs like a wild banshee in the back yard, or at the park, I throw a bumper and she goes out and leaves it. 

I don't think I am 'over' training her. I work her a couple times a week, AND those have been unsuccessful. I mean if I am throwing one bumper she is not returning it and I say we are done... that is over training? 

She does love to go for walks and is bright and happy the first part. By the end she is tired but she is game and I can perk her up on walks when she tires. I have been doing shorter walks. In my most intense training stages, I do quick drills and then something fun. I have always tried to stop on good notes, not push hard parts, find another way another time to get the job done. I know her physical limitations, it's just she is getting progressively worse and worse about doing a lot of requested things that remotely look like training. 

Ann


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I don't think I am 'over' training her. I work her a couple times a week, AND those have been unsuccessful. I mean if I am throwing one bumper she is not returning it and I say we are done... that is over training?


But the thing I'm thinking is that is she has an unsuccessful training session that ends with her getting her way, that reinforces the bad behavior for next time. That's why it might be worth it backing down to a lower level where you know she will be successful every time, and just slowly building back up to where you want to be in your training with her. 

If she's failing the retrieve, then it's worth retraining and reinforcing the pieces of the retrieve. 

One thing I'm wondering a little bit... with the dock jumping, dogs are cued to jump in after a bumper or a toy. Do they retrieve the toy back to their owner? 

Or I guess I should ask, does she do water retrieves?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I am by no means an expert, but here are my thoughts:



Maxs Mom said:


> I want to learn to do field. Before we ever went to our first hunt test, Teddi could mark, on land and water like no dog I have had before. Her retrieves left a bit to be desired she would ALWAYS drop the retrieved item before she got to us. Sometimes she parades off to show others her prize. I tried a long line, to teach her to come in, and she would not go out. She doesn't like birds, ok we can work with bumpers, I just want to train. Now she won't play this game either. She runs off and does 'other' things.


Scout was like this when we started field training earlier this spring. Things straightened out for us _beautifully_ once I put her through FF and CC. She loved to do the work before, but if she wanted to give me the paw, well, she could. Have you FF or CC? If so she doesn't get to run off an do other things, you have to correct her for not picking up the bumper. (BTW, after I did FF and CC I rarely have to use them to back-up commands, but it has made a difference. We went from not liking birds, playing around with the bumper on the come in--to a dog who is almost ready to run a junior in just a few months. I almost never use the collar during training right now)

Also, Scout did not like birds at first either. It took a lot of teasing, throwing it in the water, etc. to get her on them. Now she loves them.



Maxs Mom said:


> I honestly do not think I am putting pressure on her. *I back off when she is exhibiting stress.* I want to do this stuff for FUN! Though I have tried the 'if you won't play we are done' routine and she seems perfectly ok with that.


Again, I am by no means expert but from what I have read and heard is to not create a stress-free environment when training, but rather, to teach your dog to work around and through stress to come out on top.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> I mean if I am throwing one bumper she is not returning it and I say we are done... that is over training?


I again swear to you that initially, Scout was like this. She would sometimes run out there and then just toot around before picking up the bumper, and she would drop within a few feet of coming in or prance around me with her 'prize.' I just stuck with it, and now I have a dog who is obsessed with bumpers and retrieves to hand very nicely.

I think there needs to be some consequence when she decides to not do something. If she is picking them up but not coming in all the way I would gently suggest you consider CC if you haven't already. This is probably the only reason I decided to try out the collar although having some concerns with it (and I generally tell anybody who sees me train with it not to get one), BUT once I CC to here she quit dropping the bumpers. Period.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

What you can try too is if she decides she's going to leave the ring, have a friend collect her. They can slip a leash on her and walk her to a strange crate and put her in. Then you get your other dog out and keep working for a while, and then go 'find' her and see if she's ready to work again. Even just having someone catch her, leash her and ignore her (no treats, no praise) while you work your other dog will help her figure out that's not such a good idea (in other words going to the crowd isn't as much fun as she thought).

With Bender I had to do a lot of e collar simply for the recall, because she has so much social butterfly drive that a person talking to her or looking at her was soooo rewarding she'd go do that if I wasn't being as interesting or I was asking too much of her little brain. It became a bad habit, someone would walk in the building and she'd be gone.

Lana


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I dealt with that the first few months of owning Ranger. His "will to please" was non-existent to the point that it took me three weeks before I realized he KNEW how to "down" but simply wasn't doing it. So I'd be left wrestling him to the ground and cursing about what a dummy I own. Until the one magic day that I happened to have a cookie in my hand downstairs. I frustratingly said, "why can't you just LAY DOWN??" and he promptly dropped like a stone. THREE weeks I'd been wrestling with him. I immediately took him outside and asked for a down: he stared at me blankly like he hadn't just done it perfectly 30 seconds ago. 

I had to completely change the way I trained him. Praise didn't matter to him and it still doesn't really. Cookies didn't work if there was something more exciting and there was ALWAYS something more exciting. What really helped was gaining his respect in the house and then he was more eager to listen to me when we were outside. I umbilicaled him to me for 2 hours a day and ignored him for those two hours while I did chores and watched tv. After 2 weeks, we were outside training and he was doing his commands first time and responding to praise. Since then, his will to please increases exponentionally to how much time he spends on the umbilical cord. It's crazy, but true.

I've also learned that I have to make him WANT to learn. I started clicker training for tricks and it blew MY mind how fast he was able to piece info together to get the click and treat. I've only clicker trained for tricks but saw a huge improvement in his other training as well. It really unlocked his mind. He started figuring it was HIS ideas=actions that got reward, and thanks to the umbilical training, praise is now a good enough reward for him.

He still closes off mentally sometimes when he's had enough. Bender can attest to that. One session ended with manic, hysterical barking from Ranger because Ticket was playing fetch. Another ended with Ranger rolling himself over and over and over at my feet when I was trying to get him to front, then laying down and staring at the planes going overhead. Lana's idea of putting the dog in a crate then working with the others is a great one. I was doing some fun field training and Ranger was goofing around so I put him in a sit while doing it with another dog. By the time it was Ranger's turn again, he freaking roared to the bumper and came back faster than he'd ever cared to before. He also finished with a perfect hand-to-mouth give which we'd been working on to no avail the few days before...it's amazing what a little competition will do.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Megora said:


> One thing I'm wondering a little bit... with the dock jumping, dogs are cued to jump in after a bumper or a toy. Do they retrieve the toy back to their owner?
> 
> Or I guess I should ask, does she do water retrieves?


Yes water she is pretty good BUT she was up north this past weekend dropping the bumper in the water and then not coming out :doh: At dock jumping competitions, she gets her bumper, then she parades once around the pool to show her prize off. She has ALWAYS gone out to get whatever we have needed her to get in water, not always all the way back in but she is much better on water. 

Golden Sail she does sound EXACTLY like Scout. We have started FF, and she is wearing an e collar. We have not turned it on yet. She is also SOFT!!!! So I want to go really slow with both. One thing she has done from day one that is the main reason we put the e collar on her... she will take off after people. Not in an aggressive way, she sees someone, up the street, down the block, across the park and she decides she MUST visit them and she is GONE!!!! We can not call her off a person, dog yes, person no. This behavior is coming out more. It scares me when it involves her darting across a road. 97% of the time she is great off leash, then whoosh. I think it is a similar response to her other things she is doing. 

Bender I like your idea of taking her out and putting her away to watch. Not a bad idea either. 

I am thinking about NILF and being firmer with her about it. Because she is soft, good, sweet, and I must admit... I have sympathetic feelings for her she has been through a lot in her short life. I probably have let her get away with things I would NEVER let another dog do. Hard realizing your own mistakes. Do you think it is too late to turn her around? 

Ann


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If you went through what I did with our Danny, it probably is wonderful to see her kicking up her feet and running around the neighborhood. It most definitely means she's not hurting. 

I feel silly for asking, but what do FF, CC, NILF mean.... ? 



> At dock jumping competitions, she gets her bumper, then she parades once around the pool to show her prize off.


The thing I'm thinking is that this might be partly the reason why she's not immediately trying to retrieve right back to you. <- But that's just based off my whole thinking on retrieves in general. It may not be the case with your dog. It was my best guess since your dog OBVIOUSLY feels good about life and herself. 

Our first dog was a natural retriever with strong instincts. That was how he came out of his shell when we first brought him home. Poor little guy was hiding under the furniture and scared of all of us, until somebody threw a toy for him. Then suddenly everything was all right. Even _his_ retrieves got messed up because we'd throw things for him and not expect a perfect retrieve every time. 



> Because she is soft, good, sweet, and I must admit... I have sympathetic feelings for her she has been through a lot in her short life. I probably have let her get away with things I would NEVER let another dog do. Hard realizing your own mistakes. Do you think it is too late to turn her around?


Nope. As long as she's healthy limbed and running around the neighborhood, then she can most definitely be taught to do something constructive with her doggy time. 

It might just be that she needs more time to mature. :wavey:


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Megora said:


> I feel silly for asking, but what do FF, CC, NILF mean.... ?
> 
> :wavey:


Don't feel silly 

FF = Force Fetch (often with an ear pinch or toe hitch)
CC = Collar Conditioned (e-collar)
NILF = Nothing in Life is Free - a program which forces the dog to earn everything - some methods advocate even restricting water until the dog does something to earn it - I actually never could do this even if it was just a nose-touch or sit.

As an example: Supper might be divided into 10 batches, and the dog might get a batch every 4 weave poles, with a double batch on completion (jack pot). This might be repeated twice so the dog earns his supper rather than receiving it for free. Dog has to sit to go outside. etc. It really can be a pretty effective and non-confrontational method of training.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I see.... 

I kinda use NILF then, although I tend to think of it more like "Never waste a training opportunity" (NWATO?). 

ie - If he wants his food, then he has to do three scoot fronts. Or something. Not so much because he's earning his food, but because I have his full attention. Me and the dog food bowl. :O.O:


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I stink at doing NILIF. I've tried several times with the Lhasa, but I can't help spoiling the little guy


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Another idea--try to train when she wants your attention. I've been doing this with Scout. Rather than always training when I want, I wait until she starts bugging me for attention (bringing me toys, putting her head in my lap) then I stop to train and that is how she earns the attention. I can get a lot done this way and minimize other rewards such as food and toys.

I hope the ecollar works out for you. I distinctly remember the first time I went out with my current group and we all tried everything to get Scout to pick up the bird (jealousy when another dog picked it up, teasing, etc). I was heavily discouraged at that point, and many people didn't think we'd come back. We did and it has been an upward climb from there.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

My response may not be popular here, but if my dog was showing such aversion to training, I would back off for awhile. 

I still think it may be an issue of pain. When your adrenaline is up because you are excited or having fun, you may ignore the pain or not even feel it, but when you are doing something you do not like, you may feel the pain. 

Selli does not enjoy obedience as much as she does agility. That means I have to work harder to make obedience enjoyable for her. I love my instructor Kathy Cox who advocates "motivational training" and is constantly after me to work on Selli's play drive in a training setting. It also helps she owns and shows Selli's half-brother. 

But if I got to a point where Selli actively avoided doing obedience, I think I would just stick to agility or chuck it all and let her focus on hunting bunnies. There is a certain amount of drive to do obedience, field work or agility that is inbred and not up to the owner. Some Goldens have been bred to be lovable pets.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks Carolyn

I hear you. She isn't really training... I want to be. That is why we stopped agility. I didn't want to force her. I know I talk about all this stuff but we have not done a whole lot of any of it. The retrieving thing is carrying over to fun stuff too. So I am at a loss. Do I just ignore her and not do anything? Leave her home or in the car? As I type that my head says 'exactly what you do' then I may have her looking for work. I am not sure it is that easy. Last night I was trying to leave with my lab to go to class, and my husband called her to come. She would not have any part of a 'command'. That is not good. 

GoldenSail I wish we were closer. I think you have already gone through what I am experiencing. I emailed a group we are training with this weekend to see if I can bring Teddi (DH is working Quinn) I only want to if there will be a "puppy" training session. She needs to be treated that way. 

I don't know how 'extreme' I am going to be with NILF but I am going to make her work for whatever. Small things I will ask small requests, bigger things I will try to expect more out of her. We need to change our mindset. 

Ann


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