# Southwind Kennels



## shegga12 (May 10, 2011)

I am new at looking at the OFA website so I need a little help - what do you think of the clearances for Southwind?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Do you have a website? Parents' names?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Yeah, it's much easier to check clearances once you have registered names of the parents and/or AKC numbers. Checking an entire kennel's dogs is rather time consuming.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If you are talking about Southwind Goldens... many red flags. They are breeding the light European type Goldens and charge $1800 for pets and $2300 for full registration(respectable breeders frown on this practice). As far as I can see, no registered names on the website so no way to look them up. And they sell Pointgold's least favorite product(Nuvet) which you have to buy to get the 2 year health guarantee.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The litter I can see for June... if that's the one you are looking at, 

Mom 
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Dad
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

They are there to look at...

I'm at work so I maybe I'm not looking at this right, but doesn't look like they've had their eyes and hearts checked.

I see a lot of dogs with joint problems on the dad's side....


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> Dad
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> 
> I see a lot of dogs with joint problems on the dad's side....


If you are referring to the affected offspring of CH Daybreak Varsity Jump
I absolutely DISagree with your notion that there are "a lot" of his offspring with joint problems. He has how many listed? Maybe 100+ offspring with clearances, and only a handful with an affected diagnosis. To me it looks like a rather GOOD production history! NO dog will produce 100% clear offspring and here you are seeing a VERY POPULAR stud dog who was bred A LOT. There are going to be affected offspring and frankly, the number seems very moderate to me.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> If you are referring to the affected offspring of CH Daybreak Varsity Jump
> I absolutely DISagree with your notion that there are "a lot" of his offspring with joint problems.


That's OK. :

Just pointing out the obvious. I saw dogs with both poor hips and probable elbow dysplasia, and there are some dogs that do not have clearances listed. More than one seems to be "a lot" to me - uninformed opinion of a dog owner, etc.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> That's OK. :
> 
> Just pointing out the obvious. I saw dogs with both poor hips and probable elbow dysplasia. More than one seems to be "a lot" to me - uninformed opinion of a dog owner, etc.


I realize that it's a knee-jerk reaction to seeing ANY bad results show up on OFA. But one bad result out of 20 doesn't mean the dog has a "PROBLEM" throwing bad hips or elbows. Talon (Daybreak Varsity Jump) is a very well known and respected stud dog and in my opinion, it verges on libel to announce that you see a "lot of dogs with joint problems" coming from him, from one cursory glance on an OFA production page.
I have no vested interest in Talon or his offspring but I would hate for someone to take a quick peek at Fisher's OFA page and announce that he has "A LOT of X problem" produced because one puppy out of 20 has been diagnosed. I applaud people for publicly displaying all of their clearances -- good or bad -- and putting a stigma on dogs like this is EXACTLY why people are afraid to! "Look -- 5 dogs out of a hundred are dysplastic -- we have a problem!!!!"


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

There were more than 5 dogs though, if you counted the dogs who did not have hip or elbow clearances listed.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> There were more than 5 dogs though, if you counted the dogs who did not have hip or elbow clearances listed.


Well hello, you would NOT count the dogs who do NOT have a clearance listed. Innocent before proven guilty??? How can you assume they have bad clearances if there are no clearances listed?!
I did some counting. Talon has 145 offspring listed in OFA.
*FOUR have a failing OFA Hip grade. And mind you, none worse than "moderate."
That is a hip dysplasia rate of 2.76%. The breed average is 19.8%.
TWO have a failing OFA Elbow score. 
That is 1.4% of his offspring. The breed average is 11.1%.*

Sounds pretty freakin good to me.


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## shegga12 (May 10, 2011)

The Dad's name is Backgammon Gemstar Goodbye Time and the mom is Southwinds Magical Myst


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

*I'm teasing you at this point, but that 2.76% and 1.4% are based on a sampling on a website that mainly only breeders use. Those percentages would be different if they were based on all of the dog's offspring.

And missing clearances - I guess after listening in on other conversations here on GRF do seem to indicate that there is a reason why the breeder has chosen not to include them on the OFA website. 


*


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> I'm teasing you at this point, but that 2.76% and 1.4% are based on a sampling on a website that mainly only breeders use. Those percentages would be different if they were based on _all_ of the dog's offspring.


I'm quite aware of that. However the 19% and 11% are from this same sampling, so you can quite easily compare the two.



> And missing clearances - I guess after listening in on other conversations here on GRF do seem to indicate that there is a reason why the breeder has chosen not to include them on the OFA website.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It's not fair to ASSUME a missing clearance means the dog has tried and failed. More times than not it's because for some reason they just didn't do it. Assumptions are a very poor way to determine data.
Does your dog have all four clearances? I don't know his registered name otherwise I'd look it up. If he does not, should I assume it's because he is dysplastic or has bad eyes or heart, by virtue of the fact they are not on OFA?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I obviously had the wrong Southwind Kennel in my first post. I agree with everything Anney said regarding Talon. He was very popular and used a lot... I am here in the Northeast, so I did visit his "kennel" when looking for a stud dog. The problem with making a judgment based on OFA pages is that many of the less used dogs might look better because they just don't have the numbers... or owners as a rule just post the cleared OFA's(in other words they didn't initial that place on the OFA application to post results good or bad). Plus let's not forget it takes two to tango. ED, HD, SAS, and some eye issues are not simply dominant or recessive. Most of these conditions are multifactorial and sometimes just a combo of the wrong genes together. I knew a breeder who bred her bitch 2X's with a different sire each time. The first litter no orthopedic issues, the second litter at least 5 boys had shoulder OCD... same bitch, different stud dogs. Years ago, I called a Northeastern breeder about her stud dog who was used a lot especially for obedience type bitches. I asked her if he had produced HD, ED, etc. She very honestly said "he's produced at least one of each." I have bred 7 litters since and I can tell you not everyone is as upfront as she was.

I think a pup from this kennel has a nice pedigree.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I'm quite aware of that. However the 19% and 11% are from this same sampling, so you can quite easily compare the two.


True - I didn't think of that.  



> Does your dog have all four clearances? I don't know his registered name otherwise I'd look it up. If he does not, should I assume it's because he is dysplastic or has bad eyes or heart, by virtue of the fact they are not on OFA?


Had I entered him into the OFA and did not have info in one or more of the clearances areas, you could probably assume there was a reason why. For example, if the elbows are listed, and not the hips. Or the hips and not the elbows.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> I obviously had the wrong Southwind Kennel in my first post. I agree with everything Anney said regarding Talon. He was very popular and used a lot... I am here in the Northeast, so I did visit his "kennel" when looking for a stud dog. The problem with making a judgment based on OFA pages is that many of the less used dogs might look better because they just don't have the numbers... or owners as a rule just post the cleared OFA's(in other words they didn't initial that place on the OFA application to post results good or bad). Plus let's not forget it takes two to tango. ED, HD, SAS, and some eye issues are not simply dominant or recessive. Most of these conditions are multifactorial and sometimes just a combo of the wrong genes together. I knew a breeder who bred her bitch 2X's with a different sire each time. The first litter no orthopedic issues, the second litter at least 5 boys had shoulder OCD... same bitch, different stud dogs. Years ago, I called a Northeastern breeder about her stud dog who was used a lot especially for obedience type bitches. I asked her if he had produced HD, ED, etc. She very honestly said "he's produced at least one of each." I have bred 7 litters since and I can tell you not everyone is as upfront as she was.
> 
> I think a pup from this kennel has a nice pedigree.



Great post. If you breed the dog enough you are going to get something wrong. If by doing clearances you never had another problem, we wouldn't have to do them past the first generation. Clearances don't say the dog is BAD they just give us information to help choose the best parents and work to reduce the incidence of these diseases. Unless we work out a DNA test for them we will never eradicate the diseases totally! 
It's pointing the finger at breeders and stud dogs who produce and publicly display failed clearances that drives them underground! Not good!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> True - I didn't think of that.
> 
> 
> 
> Had I entered him into the OFA and did not have info in one or more of the clearances areas, you could probably assume there was a reason why. For example, if the elbows are listed, and not the hips. Or the hips and not the elbows.


So he doesn't have any clearances at the present. Then is it safe for me to assume he has bad hips, elbows, heart and eyes? Of course not. For whatever reason you didn't do them, and that's fine, the dog isn't being bred. 
If the next show you go to has a free CERF clinic and you put your dog in and submit that, should I then assume he passed eyes but failed hips, elbows, heart? See, clearances happen independently and not necessarily because the dog failed them. You might be able to deduce that on one particular dog but it is not fair to assume all missing clearances mean the dog failed it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> It's pointing the finger at breeders and stud dogs who produce and publicly display failed clearances that drives them underground!


I guess put one way or from the perspective of somebody who is doing everything they can to better the breed, I can see that. 

On the other hand... I know that there are people out there who are encouraged to post the bad results on the OFA website so that future puppy buyers can see them and think twice before going with a specific breeder or kennel.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> I guess put one way or from the perspective of somebody who is doing everything they can to better the breed, I can see that.
> 
> On the other hand... I know that there are people out there who are encouraged to post the bad results on the OFA website so that future puppy buyers can see them and think twice before going with a specific breeder or kennel.


Thinking twice is not a bad idea...heck thinking three or four or five times is not a bad idea when making the decision to buy a puppy from any breeder. 

Often times...posting to OFA is the ONLY recourse puppy buyers have. 
The breeder denies the puppy is even sick and offers no sympathy or support.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't necessarily agree when GRF members encourage people to post failing OFA's just to discredit a breeder. Bad things happen to good breeders....


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I just want to point out that in most threads where there was a missing clearance and people made a negative inference it was referring to a missing hip or elbow clearance when the other was posted. Since they are routinely done together, if the clearances were done after the change in the GRCA recommendations and hips or elbows are missing, then it might be an indication of HD/ED. It didn't apply generally since hearts, eyes and hips/elbows are not typically done together. I"m not saying it's correct or incorrect to make any inference from a missing hip/elbow clearance, but some clarification was needed. 

And I do have a vested interest in Talon's pedigree since he is the grand-sire to both of my dogs. In the interest of full disclosure


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

shegga12 said:


> The Dad's name is Backgammon Gemstar Goodbye Time and the mom is Southwinds Magical Myst


Both of these dogs have only hips/elbows certification.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

They might have eye and heart clearances that aren't posted. All of mine have all 4 and sometimes 5 clearances on OFA, but not every posts everything.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DNL2448 said:


> Both of these dogs have only hips/elbows certification.


I noticed the same... 

Make sure you see the clearances for eyes and heart. As the others said, it's pretty easy taking the dogs in to have these done at minimal expense compared to the hips/elbows, so I would hope they simply haven't been updated. 


> I just want to point out that in most threads where there was a missing clearance and people made a negative inference it was referring to a missing hip or elbow clearance when the other was posted. Since they are routinely done together, if the clearances were done after the change in the GRCA recommendations and hips or elbows are missing, then it might be an indication of HD/ED.


There were a few missing elbows in the lineup while most of the other information was filled out. And even a couple missing hips though elbows were listed. That's why I brought it up.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It took a lot of breeders awhile to come around to doing elbows. Not all started when the GRCA recommended it. In fact, I know one NH breeder(well respected that doesn't do elbows, still). I've been doing elbows since 1997, but the sire of my first litter born in 2002 did not have his elbows done(but none of those pups have clinical elbow issues, either).


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Megora said:


> I noticed the same...
> 
> Make sure you see the clearances for eyes and heart. As the others said, it's pretty easy taking the dogs in to have these done at minimal expense compared to the hips/elbows, so I would hope they simply haven't been updated.


I agree, however, for some people, like me, it is not 'pretty easy' to have eyes and hearts done. Where we live, I have to travel 5 hours, and spend a night in a hotel to have my dogs hearts certified (closest cardiologist). Hips and elbows are, for me, the easy part.

Eye certifications only happen once a year in our town, so as was the case last year, where the clinic didn't contact me, my dogs went without their CERF (which was remedied last Friday). That said, if I am breeding these animals, why wouldn't I want all that information posted? If my dogs don't pass, I would not breed them. I can understand not turning in the paper work due to limited funds, but then again, having puppies is not cheap, so I would consider that in the grand scheme of things. If I can't afford to post clearances on the OFA/CERF can I afford a litter of puppies? 

Stepping off my soapbox now.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think there's a big difference also if the dog with missing clearances isn't going to be bred. Someone might have a reason to want to check into one area and not another. I brought Conner to a CERF clinic with the PU scare but never bothered to get his other clearances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I think there's a big difference also if the dog with missing clearances isn't going to be bred. Someone might have a reason to want to check into one area and not another. I brought Conner to a CERF clinic with the PU scare but never bothered to get his other clearances.


I did the same... but didn't spend the money to post his clearances to the OFA since I'm not breeding him and was simply having the eyes checked for his own good and my peace of mind. :curtain:



> I agree, however, for some people, like me, it is not 'pretty easy' to have eyes and hearts done. Where we live, I have to travel 5 hours, and spend a night in a hotel to have my dogs hearts certified (closest cardiologist). Hips and elbows are, for me, the easy part.


Eek! I'm never stop to thank my stars for all of the local dog shows that host eye and heart clinics. Even the eye specialist I took Jacks to last year for his cerf (they cleared, no problems) is only 40 minutes away, thank the lord.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Talon is the sire of the handsome Hubba & Zoom among other very top-notch dogs. I have only seen Zoom babies but they are oh so gorgeous. I think it is wise to look at not only what Talon is producing hip wise but also his offspring, like Zoom. I had never thought of looking at the percentages. I think it is different to see a dog like Talon with a handful of dysplastics out of hundreds vs. some backyard breeder dog with 10 offspring and 3-4 dysplastic for obvious reasons.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Talon is the sire of the handsome Hubba & Zoom among other very top-notch dogs. I have only seen Zoom babies but they are oh so gorgeous. I think it is wise to look at not only what Talon is producing hip wise but also his offspring, like Zoom.


Talon really is a remarkable sire, not only for the champions he produced but for the number of outstanding producers he sired. Zoom, Hubbs, Chant, the list goes on.



> I had never thought of looking at the percentages. I think it is different to see a dog like Talon with a handful of dysplastics out of hundreds vs. some backyard breeder dog with 10 offspring and 3-4 dysplastic for obvious reasons.


Exactly my point.


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## Otrip (Jun 16, 2011)

shegga12 said:


> The Dad's name is Backgammon Gemstar Goodbye Time and the mom is Southwinds Magical Myst


Dad, AKA "Blake":
OFFA heart: 9/28&29/2007 Normal
OFFA elbow: report 4/11/2008 (@30mths) Normal
OFFA hip: report 4/11/2008 (@30mths) Fair
CEF eye: 6/13/2010 Normal

Blake gets around a lot! Bowser has the same father. This is "Blake" Gemstar Golden Retrievers and Comfort Kennel, Golden Retriever Breeders, Darien Center, New York Check out thoes paws.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Am I correct in assuming this is NOT Southwind Kennels in Wisconsin?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I don't necessarily agree when GRF members encourage people to post failing OFA's just to discredit a breeder. Bad things happen to good breeders....


Maybe their motive is off (and I can kind of agree with you there), but I do think it's important that all results be submitted. Frankly, I wish OFA would do away with the option of not publishing failing results but I also understand that having that option increases breeder participation with testing. To me the bottom line is that if we're really going to use the database as it is intended -- to track and reduce the prevalence of genetic disorders -- a puppy buyer/pet owner who holds back results of dysplasia does nothing to move us toward that end. As Anney has pointed out, a handful of failing results in the career of a good producer are just one of the unfortunately realities we live with... it doesn't take anything away from the dog in the big picture. But it is possible that by pet owners testing and publishing the results that we may see some patterns of affected dogs coming from breding stock that we may have otherwise missed. Just my 2 cents.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The problem and now I am getting further off topic is that not everyone is forthcoming. So if you use that OFA as a way to stay away from certain lines, you will not find it a very effective way to get all useful information. I have learned a lot talking to stud dog owners when I am looking to breed one of my girls. Some are very upfront which can almost scare one away. However, it's the ones who do the least talking that scare me more. 13 years ago when I was interested in a popular stud dog, I called the owner and asked if he had produced: cataracts, HD, ED, etc. She very honestly said that he had produced at least one of each. This was a dog that sired a lot of puppies, so it was inevitable that issues would come up. And while we are talking about info available for all to see, why don't many people put up COD on K9 data? Often, there is a death date, but no COD. And honestly, rightly or wrongly, if there is no COD listed, I assume cancer.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think you guys have highlighted a really important issue that perhaps deserves its own thread. Honest, open breeders who are trying to provide data on the common illnesses can end up looking worse than manipulative, unethical breeders, and that just stinks.


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## Cosi (May 22, 2008)

...........


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## Cosi (May 22, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I obviously had the wrong Southwind Kennel in my first post. I agree with everything Anney said regarding Talon. He was very popular and used a lot... I am here in the Northeast, so I did visit his "kennel" when looking for a stud dog. The problem with making a judgment based on OFA pages is that many of the less used dogs might look better because they just don't have the numbers... or owners as a rule just post the cleared OFA's(in other words they didn't initial that place on the OFA application to post results good or bad). Plus let's not forget it takes two to tango. ED, HD, SAS, and some eye issues are not simply dominant or recessive. Most of these conditions are multifactorial and sometimes just a combo of the wrong genes together. I knew a breeder who bred her bitch 2X's with a different sire each time. The first litter no orthopedic issues, the second litter at least 5 boys had shoulder OCD... same bitch, different stud dogs. Years ago, I called a Northeastern breeder about her stud dog who was used a lot especially for obedience type bitches. I asked her if he had produced HD, ED, etc. She very honestly said "he's produced at least one of each." I have bred 7 litters since and I can tell you not everyone is as upfront as she was.
> 
> I think a pup from this kennel has a nice pedigree.


..........


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## gingersgoldens (Dec 8, 2013)

I hope no one confuses Southwind Goldens with Southwind Kennel Golden Retrievers. I've had this name since 1976! Southwind Kennel is a dog boarding facility and I also raise Golden Retrievers in my home. I do not sell NuVet (which I don't know much about) and I don't charge up to 2400.00 for my Golden's. If you'd like to see our website, not to be confused with southwind goldens, you can go to www.SOUTHWINDKENNEL.com My dogs registered names are not on there because I don't want people to think we only have show Golden's. We actually don't show in the breed ring, we show in obedience. Most of the people who contact us want a pet and think if the dogs have show backgrounds they can't afford one. Anyway, just thought I'd put this out there.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I was doing some research this morning, and came back upon this thread from 2011. It is the Forum at its best with such a thoughtful discussion. It also really helped me distinguish that there are 3 SouthWind breeders out there.


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