# Any experience with breeder, Don Graves "Super Goldens"?



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Have you looked him up on K9data.com? You can search for "owner" or search for "breeder" as a good starting place.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

A quick look at the OFFA site shows a variety of clearances, but if you had the names of the parents of a liter, we could determine if those dogs have all their clearances.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

You could worse (as far as clearances) but you could do better (as far as quality, guarantee, etc.) They use one male for all breedings. They don't compete in any venue, and I am immediately put off by such statements as "100% English creme imported from Hungary."


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

FYI, Pennhip clearances are not rated by fair, good, or excellent. "Bugatti" who appears to be the sire of all the pups is listed as PennHip excellent. In fact, the dogs are rated by their distraction index and then ranked as a percentile for their specific breed. Calling a PennHip rating excellent(an OFA designation) is like comparing apples to oranges. Further, on the website, they do not state that he has clear elbows. And on one of the 4 bitches, there is no mention of clear elbows. Depending on what you believe, PennHip is one correct way to rate dogs' hips. But do not lose sight that elbows must be clear, too. Additionally, check to see if eyes are cleared annually and that cardiac clearances were done by a cardiologist after one year of age.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> FYI, Pennhip clearances are not rated by fair, good, or excellent. "Bugatti" who appears to be the sire of all the pups is listed as PennHip excellent. In fact, the dogs are rated by their distraction index and then ranked as a percentile for their specific breed. Calling a PennHip rating excellent(an OFA designation) is like comparing apples to oranges. Further, on the website, they do not state that he has clear elbows. And on one of the 4 bitches, there is no mention of clear elbows. Depending on what you believe, PennHip is one correct way to rate dogs' hips. But do not lose sight that elbows must be clear, too. Additionally, check to see if eyes are cleared annually and that cardiac clearances were done by a cardiologist after one year of age.


Ditto. I had only taken a real quick look at the site. There are several "red flags". There are so many of these breeders advertising over the internet that they seem to learn some of the "right" things to say, yet a closer look more often than not proves that they really are not walking the walk.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

The eye clearances on the father and mothers of both of the litters are out of date (the females were from 2008 and the male from 2009). Bugatti, the father actually does have a OFA hip clearance, it is a good, so he might also have a pennhip score, but the OFA is good.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I would look elsewhere. There are so many good breeders in that part of the US. Do a search on here and you'll see what the recommendations are from forum members.


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## SparrowWatcher (Mar 6, 2011)

Wow. You all really are awesome! Thanks for all the information. This process is so overwhelming and it is a huge blessing to have everyone's advice.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, Bugatti does have hip and elbow clearances... just not updated on the website. Doesn't have a current eye clearance on OFA......


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## K9Chick (Mar 26, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> Further, on the website, they do not state that he has clear elbows.


They don't. He said - QUOTING - "it's a waste of time and money" and we walked away. :no:


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## dawn (Apr 8, 2009)

*I have purchased from SuperGolden*

I have a female, Kara Belli that we purchased from Don Graves at SuperGolden. I would without hesitation buy from him again. Kara Belli is the sweetest, best personality of a dog I have ever seen. When i brought her to our vets and gave her a copy of all the paperwork Don gave me, she said she has never seen this much history/paperwork given and was extremely impressed. Don is fantastic to deal with and two years later, I have no hesitation to email him with questions and he answers very quickly and has even offered to have me bring Kara Belli up if i want to learn how to groom her myself. His Customer Service is second to none.


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## WendyS (Apr 6, 2011)

I see that you are in South Carolina. My neighbor got 3 beautiful goldens from this breeder and is very happy. www.oakleafgoldens.com


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

dawn said:


> I have a female, Kara Belli that we purchased from Don Graves at SuperGolden. I would without hesitation buy from him again. Kara Belli is the sweetest, best personality of a dog I have ever seen. When i brought her to our vets and gave her a copy of all the paperwork Don gave me, she said she has never seen this much history/paperwork given and was extremely impressed. Don is fantastic to deal with and two years later, I have no hesitation to email him with questions and he answers very quickly and has even offered to have me bring Kara Belli up if i want to learn how to groom her myself. His Customer Service is second to none.


 
I knew a very, very sweet Golden Retriever with a fantastic personality. I showed her to 3 majors, needing a single to finish. She turned two, went for her clearances, and it was discovered that she had SAS. 
Good personality and sound health do not always go hand in hand.
Oh, she also had a very impressive history and paperwork.

By the way, welcome to the forum. Nice first post.


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## dawn (Apr 8, 2009)

Thank you, but reading all the information, it feels (at least to me) that you are criticizing Don and not giving him a chance. I found him to be very informative, was able to answer questions and his guarantee is wonderful. I have to tell you, i spent alot of time at his house, he showed me his setup and was not hiding anything that i could see. My Kara Belli is 2 years old and the one question people keep asking us "is she as sweet as she looks" our answer is sweeter. We have had many people comment how good her personality, mannerism are. This doesn't come from just any breeder.

Before we decided to get a golden, i put a down payment down on a lhasa apso. Imagine my surprise when i get a call that the pup had died, and did i want a different one. When i called the wife, she told me she would not dwell on the past. Needless to say, i got my money back and will never go back again.

I owned a purebred Lhasa Apso before and i can tell you that you can have all the right credentials but not have a great dog. I am more than pleased with Super Golden and would purchase another one from him in a heart beat. I just find some of these comments hard to believe that Don said this. His dogs are beautiful (and my girls dad was not from Bugatti).

I could never compete with your knowledge but I do pride myself as a good judge of dogs. I just met a person the other day that the breeder that he used, will not allow you to pick your dog, this breeder picks the dog for you. I guess different strokes for different folks.

I think this forum is great but i am concerned it could be a bashing without cause.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

dawn said:


> Thank you, but reading all the information, it feels (at least to me) that you are criticizing Don and not giving him a chance. I found him to be very informative, was able to answer questions and his guarantee is wonderful. I have to tell you, i spent alot of time at his house, he showed me his setup and was not hiding anything that i could see.
> I think this forum is great but i am concerned it could be a bashing without cause.


I read through this entire thread. I didn't think anyone was "bashing" the breeder, they were just giving facts about what they discovered about the SuperGoldens breeding program, and I think that is was the OP was asking for help with.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

dawn, Many knowledgable breeders pick the dog for you as they are with the pups 24/7 and have a better insight into temperament than someone who sees them in 20 minute "vignettes".


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My first 3 goldens were "picked" for me and I can't complain. The following 6, I picked myself as I was their breeder.


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## dawn (Apr 8, 2009)

lgnutah said:


> I read through this entire thread. I didn't think anyone was "bashing" the breeder, they were just giving facts about what they discovered about the SuperGoldens breeding program, and I think that is was the OP was asking for help with.



Maybe i am sensitive but I think your giving him a bad rap without even knowing him. He is forthcoming with information and is more than willing to share.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

As a good judge of dogs, then, Dawn, you are familiar with the breed standard? And also understand the importance of genetic health clearances in a vertical pedigree. Mr. Super Goldens, it would seem, does not.

As a breeder, I have a number of respected breeders evaluate my litters to offer objective opinions, and I also temperament/aptitude test them in order to place the right puppy in the right home. I DO select the puppy for the owner. As do most all of the reputable, responsible breeders that I know. And, several of the dogs that I have bought were chosen for me by the breeder (including the dog in my avatar). I've never had a complaint, and the breeders knew that their puppies were going to the right home for them, as do I when I send a puppy that I have bred to a new home.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

dawn said:


> Maybe i am sensitive but I think your giving him a bad rap without even knowing him. He is forthcoming with information and is more than willing to share.


 
He may be a very nice man. And, this is not "bashing", but, factual observations based on the information that he himself posts to his website. Which, to the general public, may look impressive. To those who are reputable, responsible breeder/exhibitors, not so much...

Again, he is likely a nice person, and his dogs are probably sweet. However, he is breeding dogs on outdated CERF's. Are you familiar with Pigmentary Uveitis? 
He does not clear elbows - saying "it's a waste of time and money" is grossly irresponsible.
His "guarantee" requires the return of the dog. Not something generally done by reputable breeders. 
He does no competition in any venue to prove his dogs. (Using "championship bloodlines" as a marketing tool is rather misleading...)
He utilizes terms and verbage that are not accurate or relevant.
He cheerfully ships puppies to people that he has not met, or who have not seen his dogs. (Not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but it does suggest that as long as the money is there, a puppy goes...)

And just a personal thing for me is a photo on his site of a dog that looks for all the world to have the appearance typical of a dog who is hypothyroid.
There are several "red flags"


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

If they can afford the "new state of the art kennel" they can afford elbow clearance. As far as waist of time they are done at the same time as hips that he claims he does on his dogs. Stating Champion bloodline is easy....they are usually in the line somewhere. Even pet store/puppy mill pups can list that discription. He doesn't Champion or title in some venue his own dogs and that is something I would want to see. The discription of shipping makes me think he is just a high volume breeder who does not takes a lot of time to check where he is selling his puppies. If they are this serious about breeding why cut corners?


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## dawn (Apr 8, 2009)

*picking dog*



Sally's Mom said:


> dawn, Many knowledgable breeders pick the dog for you as they are with the pups 24/7 and have a better insight into temperament than someone who sees them in 20 minute "vignettes".


you are better than me, I spent a long time at Don's and we got down on the floor and played with the dogs and when it was time for them to go to sleep, only one stayed. We like to think that she picked us. I would never let someone pick my pup for me. It would be different if you had a long standing relationship with the breeder but if you didn't, i would think you would want to be a part of it. That's just me of course.:wavey:

Happy Easter Beagle Day!


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## dawn (Apr 8, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> He may be a very nice man. And, this is not "bashing", but, factual observations based on the information that he himself posts to his website. Which, to the general public, may look impressive. To those who are reputable, responsible breeder/exhibitors, not so much...
> 
> Again, he is likely a nice person, and his dogs are probably sweet. However, he is breeding dogs on outdated CERF's. Are you familiar with Pigmentary Uveitis?
> He does not clear elbows - saying "it's a waste of time and money" is grossly irresponsible.
> ...


I am not familiar with alot of the lingo and appreciate learning about them. That is one of the reasons why i came to this site. Knowledge is power and only helps us as owners (even though I am not a breeder). I'm not sure what you mean by the appearance typical of a dog who is hypothyroid. I don't understand and if you could explain i would appreciate it. Dawn


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have had owners who thought the pup "picked them." In reality, the pup was likely in a different phase of the sleep cycle from the others. I find that if people think that they need that "Hollywood moment" where everyone falls in love, they really aren't people who can learn from me and the 20 plus years I have studied dog behavior. My first golden was a breeder reject. My second golden was chosen by her breeder for me. My third golden I wanted because she had similar genes to golden # 2. Goldens # 2& 3 were bought sight unseen based on breeder recommendation and pedigrees and clearances. I would never let someone who has seen my pups in short spurts tell me how they were going to pick a pup. I sleep with my pups, I take them out, I sit in the X-pens with them and watch and observe them. Who knows them better than me????


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

dawn said:


> I would never let someone pick my pup for me...It would be different if you had a long standing relationship with the breeder but if you didn't, i would think you would want to be a part of it.


See, I just don't get this way of thinking...you trust a breeder enough to get one of their puppies, now why on earth would you not trust them enough to match you up with the puppy that they think would be best for you?  Doesn't make sense to me at all. A reputable/responsible breeder will know their puppies better than anyone. JMO...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

dawn said:


> you are better than me, I spent a long time at Don's and we got down on the floor and played with the dogs and when it was time for them to go to sleep, only one stayed. We like to think that she picked us. I would never let someone pick my pup for me. It would be different if you had a long standing relationship with the breeder but if you didn't, i would think you would want to be a part of it. That's just me of course.:wavey:


I'm very sympathetic to this way of thinking, and I've never taken a pup sight unseen from a breeder. At the same time, I've always worked hand in hand with the breeder to work out which pup was the best fit. The breeder knows the pups best and spends more time with them. Ideally, the breeder has been keeping notes, having other professionals evaluate structure and temperament, etc. My feelings on structure and personality are important, but I only get to see a teeny slice of time relative to what the breeder has seen, so the pup that seems the most energetic or drivey or independent for that hour might just be feeling his beans relative to other pups who actually have more of the qualities I'm looking for.

With Comet, he was the pup I was totally in love with from our first meeting. I happened to be right that he had the personality I wanted, but my breeder reserved the right to give me a different pup if she disagreed, and she had practically a whole binder of notes and temperament tests on each dogs. With Jax, the breeder let me pick (he was the second dog I got from her), but the dog I picked was the dog she had already picked in her head for me.

So while I do think there's something magical about picking a puppy, something that goes a little bit beyond what we can intellectualize, part of having a great breeder is having a person who knows a TON about dogs and can help pick he right pup for you. And most great breeders will value your input (after all, you know what kind of life the pup will have) but they know that they know the pups best, and that knowledge has value.

Too many Goldens are given up because their personalities and needs weren't a good fit for their families. A great breeder gets to make the call on which pup goes to which family, and that's done for a good reason.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Did SparrowWatcher, the OP, find another breeder? 
I noticed the thread seemed to shift and be directed at "dawn" (who entered the thread with the post about having gotten a puppy from this breeder).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I'm very sympathetic to this way of thinking, and I've never taken a pup sight unseen from a breeder. At the same time, I've always worked hand in hand with the breeder to work out which pup was the best fit. The breeder knows the pups best and spends more time with them. Ideally, the breeder has been keeping notes, having other professionals evaluate structure and temperament, etc. My feelings on structure and personality are important, but I only get to see a teeny slice of time relative to what the breeder has seen, so the pup that seems the most energetic or drivey or independent for that hour might just be feeling his beans relative to other pups who actually have more of the qualities I'm looking for.


I thought it could be said.... our first three goldens were those we handpicked. Charmy was immediately loved because he wrapped his paws around my mom's arm and buried his face into her neck. He was scared to death and had confidence issues as he grew up because of poor early socialization, but my mom thought he was holding on to her and telling her he wanted to come home with us. 

Sammy and Danny were both picked because they exhibited completely opposite behaviors when we first saw them - and we had decided that we wanted a confident and well-adjusted puppy. They were both puppies that left the herd to go off and do their own little adventures with a confident swagger of their stubby puppy tails. And that independance meant they were a little difficult to train and keep contained. While they bonded with us, it was not a very deep bond that meant they wanted to please us all the time. 

Jacks was the only one I got differently. I told the breeder I wanted first a family pet and I also wanted to compete in obedience with him. The breeder showed me a particular litter upon hearing that. I did not have my choice as to a puppy, because there were only two males and somebody else had first pick. But the breeder assured me that I would get the dog I wanted. So I paid more attention to the mom then the puppies on visits - even as I oogled them, as I did not want to bond with any of them in particular prior to finding out which would be mine. 

I fell in love with our pup when I officially met him. He was this FAT wiggling golden ball of fur who was frantic to get from the arms of the breeder's daughter and into my arms.  And what the breeder said about the obedience and attitude of the puppies from that litter were exactly true, and I have the adult dog I hoped to have. He will do well in obedience competition, but more important than anything else, he is a perfect dog at home and fit very easily with our family. 

I just wanted to say that if you do not have a pick in the litter and are going by the breeder selecting a puppy for you, it definitely does work out if your breeder knows his dogs. And you will bond with the puppy you bring home anyway.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have had owners who thought the pup "picked them." In reality, the pup was likely in a different phase of the sleep cycle from the others. I find that if people think that they need that "Hollywood moment" where everyone falls in love, they really aren't people who can learn from me and the 20 plus years I have studied dog behavior. My first golden was a breeder reject. My second golden was chosen by her breeder for me. My third golden I wanted because she had similar genes to golden # 2. Goldens # 2& 3 were bought sight unseen based on breeder recommendation and pedigrees and clearances. I would never let someone who has seen my pups in short spurts tell me how they were going to pick a pup. I sleep with my pups, I take them out, I sit in the X-pens with them and watch and observe them. Who knows them better than me????


This is a great comment. Working so much with pet dog people, I do hear lengthy descriptions of that hollywood moment, usually followed by a sense of betrayal that the puppy doesnt "like" them as much anymore. 

I do think though, that there can be a feeling of rightness with one pup more than another. With Finn, it was his gorgeous movement, which continues to lift my heart even as he is an aging dog now like it did at 6 and 8 weeks before he came home. I had to beg and plead for him.


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## dawn (Apr 8, 2009)

*Breeder*



kwhit said:


> See, I just don't get this way of thinking...you trust a breeder enough to get one of their puppies, now why on earth would you not trust them enough to match you up with the puppy that they think would be best for you?  Doesn't make sense to me at all. A reputable/responsible breeder will know their puppies better than anyone. JMO...


I see your point but I always go by my gut and it doesn't let me down. I am not a trusting person in that nature and there is no way i would let anyone pick a dog for me. I have had breeders put stipulations on what I can and cannot do and I respect their opinion and what they are doing but if it doesn't work for me, i look elsewhere. I do have to say I have seen alot of breeders that put in their contract that they cannot sell their pup that they bought from them but have to give the breeder first refusal or return to breeder.

What I would love to know is it seems you all have so much experience in breeding and showing, how did you get started and what did you read to be so experienced. I have never wanted to show a dog but I would love to have Kara be a dog to bring to nursing homes. And Happy Easter Beagle Day to all my new friends!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

"Super" Goldens.

Super - surpassing all or most others of its kind.


Oh. How would one possibly know that this is true, when one does notparticipate in any competitive venue in which to be judged as supassing all or most others?

How would one possibly know that this is true, when one does not do all clearances in which to be certified as genetically cleared at all, let alone supassing all or most others?


Perhaps these dogs are faster than speeding bullets, more powerful than locomotives and can leap tall buildings in a single bound?​


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## dawn (Apr 8, 2009)

If you saw Kara run, you would think she is faster than a speeding bullet and she can catch a ball like there is no tomorrow.:wavey:


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

dawn said:


> I see your point but I always go by my gut and it doesn't let me down. I am not a trusting person in that nature and there is no way i would let anyone pick a dog for me. I have had breeders put stipulations on what I can and cannot do and I respect their opinion and what they are doing but if it doesn't work for me, i look elsewhere. I do have to say I have seen alot of breeders that put in their contract that they cannot sell their pup that they bought from them but have to give the breeder first refusal or return to breeder.
> 
> What I would love to know is it seems you all have so much experience in breeding and showing, how did you get started and what did you read to be so experienced. I have never wanted to show a dog but I would love to have Kara be a dog to bring to nursing homes. And Happy Easter Beagle Day to all my new friends!


I would question any breeder who did NOT insist the dog come back to them if the owners couldn't keep them!

My goldens were picked for me, with imput of course. Part of the selection process for both was having other breeders come and check out the pups, a temperament test done by a stranger in a strange place, and a lot of notes taken by people coming to play with the puppies who are experienced. 

I have been doing dog stuff for 20 years (OMG), agility, flyball, superdogs, obedience, and now ready to start breeding once the right dog comes along (not goldens). And I'm still learning, but can appreciate things like biking with Storee and watching her almost 'float' as she trots beside the bike - she may not have a ton of bone or hair, but she's sound and can move! Oh and she can run like the wind and fetch balls all day too. Plus I know she's got generations of clearances behind her.


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## stacebabe (Dec 18, 2012)

I just got my puppy, Zeus, from Don. I wouldn't hesitate to go to him again. My puppy is well socialized, the facility is clean and the dogs have plenty of room. He does provide clearances for hip/elbow/heart. I think his website could use some better updating, but I saw the computer that he uses (or rarely uses according to him) and it's not up to par at all. I think it's because he's spending so much time with the dogs, the computer stuff can fall by the wayside.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I do not have a facility. The pups I,breed are raised in my kitchen. I think that that is superior to any other husbandry....


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## stacebabe (Dec 18, 2012)

These pups are totally well socialized. I could not have ever asked for a better behaved puppy. 



Sally's Mom said:


> I do not have a facility. The pups I,breed are raised in my kitchen. I think that that is superior to any other husbandry....


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

stacebabe said:


> I just got my puppy, Zeus, from Don. I wouldn't hesitate to go to him again. My puppy is well socialized, the facility is clean and the dogs have plenty of room. He does provide clearances for hip/elbow/heart. I think his website could use some better updating, but I saw the computer that he uses (or rarely uses according to him) and it's not up to par at all. I think it's because he's spending so much time with the dogs, the computer stuff can fall by the wayside.


But no annual clearances on the eyes? Hopefully the hearts were cleared by a cardiologist--can't believe the number of new folks to the forum with pups with heart murmurs.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The noun," facility" bothers me...


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

I dont understand eye clearances..... They are done yearly, for a few years they could be fine and then not be fine (?) So, if I bought a puppy two years previous to the bad eye cert. I am SOL because the parent has bad eyes now.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Eyes need to be checked annually as they change. Even eyes that have been cleared can produce pups with problems...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wendi said:


> I dont understand eye clearances..... They are done yearly, for a few years they could be fine and then not be fine (?) So, if I bought a puppy two years previous to the bad eye cert. I am SOL because the parent has bad eyes now.


Short answer: sort of.

Long answer: Some health checks can help reduce the incidence of a problem in the _long term_ even if they can't help with litters that are already born. Some problems (like PU in the eyes) don't typically show up until after an animal—especially a bitch—is past breeding age. However, catching it after a litter or even after a whole breeding career helps you eliminate it in later generations. It would be nice if eyes, like hips and elbows, showed 99.9% of their problems by the time an animal is two years old. Sadly, they don't, so the best bet is to do yearly CERFs through an animal's whole life and then use the results to make decisions about later generations.

So if you're buying a puppy from a breeder who is religious about CERFs, you're benefiting from the CERFs done on grandparents and great grandparents, even though CERFing the parents themselves will only catch the most severe, early-onset problems, which you'd obviously still want to do.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wendi said:


> I dont understand eye clearances..... They are done yearly, for a few years they could be fine and then not be fine (?) So, if I bought a puppy two years previous to the bad eye cert. I am SOL because the parent has bad eyes now.


 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...reed-standard/84030-importance-eye-exams.html


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## stacebabe (Dec 18, 2012)

Maybe I'm not using the right term. Where the puppies and parents are kept is adjacent to the house, separated by a gate.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Let me be clear, my pups and all of my dogs are in the house, there is no adjacent...


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Would I buy from this breeder? No. That is my opinion. I want a dog from proven parentage. With my quick look, there are too many holes in the clearences for my taste. I am a stickler. Also, they don't compete in anything anywhere that I can find. They then point to champions back in the pedigree. To me this seems like coat-tail riding and dosn't sit well with me at all. The quality of Champion dogs can be lost in just a generation or two of careless or unknowledgeable breeding. Lastly, is this quote, _"Due to the high demand for our pups, we needed to expand our breeding program which required us to build our new state of the art facility."_ Reputable breeders are breeding for themselves, not because buyer demand. I don't judge a breeder on the number of litters they have. Each reputable breeder breeds the litters they want/need to compete with and continue their program. For some this could be several a year, others a single litter every few years. What this statement does make clear to me is that this is a business being driven by supply and demand. It is not where I would want my next "baby" to come from.

To SparrowWatcher, Do I think you should consider them? Well, to me that depends on two things.
1. Who are the parents. Some of their dogs do have better clearences then others. So, there could be a good combo to be had here especially if they can provide copies of the missing eye clearences.

2. Price point. On average a well bred puppy from fully cleared and titled parents ranges from $1000-2000. I don't know what the going rates are in your area but usually if you budget for $1500 you can find that well bred puppy. If you could get a puppy from the better clearenced dogs at Super Goldens for say $600-1400 again depending on local pricing in relation to the first range, then well maybe. But I would not pay SuperGoldens the same amount or slightly less as I would for a well bred puppy from full cleared and competitive parentage. 
I certainly would not pay them more. Sometimes folks will demand more than reputable breeders by claiming to have something rare like, "English Creme" which is just a marketing ploy. There is no English Creme retriever breed. They are Goldens with a fancy name slapped on them.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

LJack said:


> Would I buy from this breeder? No. That is my opinion. I want a dog from proven parentage. With my quick look, there are too many holes in the clearences for my taste. I am a stickler. Also, they don't compete in anything anywhere that I can find. They then point to champions back in the pedigree. To me this seems like coat-tail riding and dosn't sit well with me at all. The quality of Champion dogs can be lost in just a generation or two of careless or unknowledgeable breeding. Lastly, is this quote, _"Due to the high demand for our pups, we needed to expand our breeding program which required us to build our new state of the art facility."_ Reputable breeders are breeding for themselves, not because buyer demand. I don't judge a breeder on the number of litters they have. Each reputable breeder breeds the litters they want/need to compete with and continue their program. For some this could be several a year, others a single litter every few years. What this statement does make clear to me is that this is a business being driven by supply and demand. It is not where I would want my next "baby" to come from.
> 
> To SparrowWatcher, Do I think you should consider them? Well, to me that depends on two things.
> 1. Who are the parents. Some of their dogs do have better clearences then others. So, there could be a good combo to be had here especially if they can provide copies of the missing eye clearences.
> ...


Can I just save all of your posts!!! You are awesome!! ;-)


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Sparrow watcher posted the question nearly two years ago. I assume he/she has already made a decision regarding this breeder. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Here's what bugs me about this. The OP asked about this breeder nearly two years ago, and disappeared. Stacebabe bought a pup from this breeder, found this forum, and came across this very old thread. She is obviously happy with her puppy. 

Why continue to trash the breeder? Who does that help at this point? The OP is long gone, and a new forum member got her puppy there. At this point, it comes off as arrogance. I doubt stacebabe feels welcome here at this point. 

Just my 2 cents......


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Here's what bugs me about this. The OP asked about this breeder nearly two years ago, and disappeared. Stacebabe bought a pup from this breeder, found this forum, and came across this very old thread. She is obviously happy with her puppy.
> 
> Why continue to trash the breeder? Who does that help at this point? The OP is long gone, and a new forum member got her puppy there. At this point, it comes off as arrogance. I doubt stacebabe feels welcome here at this point.
> 
> Just my 2 cents......


That's a good point. But there is some wisdom here, and it can be helpful to future buyers. I know that when I first came here (not very long ago) I found incredibly useful information in old threads that suddenly got bumped for whatever reason.

I generally don't like breeder trashing -- though I am guilty of it myself with regard to one puppy mill breeder -- and think there's kind of a pack hysteria here that is quick to attack and feast on the flesh off any breeder with a perceived weakness. But even the unfair threads contain valuable information. I learned a lot from a couple of the more unfortunate threads here. (Not least of which is to stay out of certain people's way!)


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

kfayard said:


> Can I just save all of your posts!!! You are awesome!! ;-)


I second that!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> That's a good point. But there is some wisdom here, and it can be helpful to future buyers. I know that when I first came here (not very long ago) I found incredibly useful information in old threads that suddenly got bumped for whatever reason.
> 
> I generally don't like breeder trashing -- though I am guilty of it myself with regard to one puppy mill breeder -- and think there's kind of a pack hysteria here that is quick to attack and feast on the flesh off any breeder with a perceived weakness. But even the unfair threads contain valuable information. I learned a lot from a couple of the more unfortunate threads here. (Not least of which is to stay out of certain people's way!)


I'm not even disputing the comments. It's probably good advice for someone looking for a breeder. It's the timing of the criticism. People come her with puppies from worse breeders than this one all the time, and get a warm welcome. Stacebabe probably didn't intend this to turn in to a debate about which room in the house is most appropriate for raising a littler.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Here's the problem. People google breeder names and VERY often the forum threads are what comes up in a google search. If someone comes on here and posts how great a breeder is and that's the last post in a thread, it is possible that unsuspecting future puppy buyers will read that last post and think the breeder is a good place to get a puppy. Many people on this board (myself included) think it is EXTREMELY important to education puppy buyers. It's not just about the one person who posted here, but the potential hundreds of lurkers who are reading these forums every day. What reads as "bashing" to some reads as information to me. I would rather risk ticking off one drive by poster if there is the potential to educate hundreds.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Well, I guess my oversight is proof of my arrogance. I am sorry that I did not notice the original posting date. So, my direct response to the OP will be of little import to them.

I personally don't want to make anyone feel as if they are unwelcome. I would certainly love to see Stacebabe active in other sections of the forum so she can experience the warmth and support the forum has to offer. I truly hope this breeder focused thread (which can be very critical of breeders who are doing less than what is in the GRCA COE) has not scared her away.

I was shocked to see your post worded in a way that seems designed to make me feel shame over a well intentioned post. I am not ashamed of my opinion I shared nor do I feel that I was "trashing" this breeder. 

I do hope even though the OP may not need this info any more, that future folks looking for puppies will find value in this thread.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Nairb said:


> I'm not even disputing the comments. It's probably good advice for someone looking for a breeder. It's the timing of the criticism. People come her with puppies from worse breeders than this one all the time, and get a warm welcome. Stacebabe probably didn't intend this to turn in to a debate about which room in the house is most appropriate for raising a littler.


Yeah, I can't say I disagree with you.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

LJack said:


> Well, I guess my oversight is proof of my arrogance. I am sorry that I did not notice the original posting date. So, my direct response to the OP will be of little import to them.
> 
> I personally don't want to make anyone feel as if they are unwelcome. I would certainly love to see Stacebabe active in other sections of the forum so she can experience the warmth and support the forum has to offer. I truly hope this breeder focused thread (which can be very critical of breeders who are doing less than what is in the GRCA COE) has not scared her away.
> 
> ...


Why do you assume I was talking to you? 

I was referring to the individual who raised her puppies in the kitchen....the same individual who tried to make me feel guilty for wanting to jog with my dog one day.

I'll leave it at that, because this discussion can only take a turn for the worst at this point.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Why do you assume I was talking to you?
> 
> I was referring to the individual who raised her puppies in the kitchen....


Probably because your post came right after mine and a direct quote of mine
It also was also very broad and not clear as to who or what you were referring to. No hard feelings
I agree the whole puppies in the kitchen was a bit abrupt. It is also hard to be objective if someone who was rough on you once, seems to be less than gentle with a brand new person. Sometime there are just perspectives or personalities that clash. That is life:wiggle:
Friends?:wave:


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

LJack said:


> Probably because your post came right after mine and a direct quote of mine
> It also was also very broad and not clear as to who or what you were referring to. No hard feelings
> I agree the whole puppies in the kitchen was a bit abrupt. It is also hard to be objective if someone who was rough on you once, seems to be less than gentle with a brand new person. Sometime there are just perspectives or personalities that clash. That is life:wiggle:
> Friends?:wave:


I can see how that would have been confusing. I assumed you did not know it was such an old thread. Your advice is very good. 


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It's clearly directed at me... I stand by my convictions... If I make someone feel guilty about jogging with a pup, that is not my problem...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> It's clearly directed at me... I stand by my convictions... If I make someone feel guilty about jogging with a pup, that is not my problem...


I never said anything about jogging with a "pup." 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I suggest we not derail the thread with a personal issue...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I suggest we not derail the thread with a personal issue...


Yeah, I hear ya. I started off defending a new member against some unnecessary antagonism. I promise I'll never do that again.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> Yeah, I hear ya. I started off defending a new member against some unnecessary antagonism. I promise I'll never do that again.


I meant the jogging issue. I also don't think the sarcasm is necessary. We can have differing opinions and still be polite.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I meant the jogging issue. I also don't think the sarcasm is necessary. We can have differing opinions and still be polite.


I wasn't being sarcastic. With me, what you see is what you get. In the future, I won't jump in when people are being treated unfairly. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

For some odd reason I suddenly feel like I'm eventually going to get banned from this site. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Being polite to those who have differing opinions should not be a novel concept. If the thread continues off topic or with more sarcastic commentary I will close it.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Being polite to those who have differing opinions should not be a novel concept. If the thread continues off topic I will close it.


With all due respect.........

IMO, you're telling that to the wrong person, but I realize that you're the moderator, so there's nothing I can do about it. This is my last comment on the thread.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> With all due respect.........
> 
> IMO, you're telling that to the wrong person, but I realize that you're the moderator, so there's nothing I can do about it. This is my last comment on the thread.


I am telling EVERYONE to keep the thread on topic. If not it will be closed.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It is very difficult to get banned from this site. All you have to do is be reasonably courteous and stay on topic, and you are fine.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There is a difference between trashing a breeder and evaluating one. Almost every profession has evaluations both formal and informal. I taught in prep school for twenty years and both had yearly evaluation and served on the Career Review Committee. More, the students often use sites like Rate My Teacher and give Student evals at the end of every term. The same is true in most jobs/profession is that you are held accountable for best practices. Scrutiny against a concrete list of ethics is not "trashing".


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> Scrutiny against a concrete list of ethics is not "trashing".


Couldn't agree more. 

I'd like to add the point that none of us are saying anything negative about anyone's dogs or puppies. We are scrutinizing the breeder and breeding practices, never your or anyones dogs.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> It is very difficult to get banned from this site.


Lord knows I've tried.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

OK one last comment. I have no interest in defending the breeder. I looked at their website, and I wouldn't get a puppy from them either. But, when someone shows up on the forum with a puppy, it's kind of a moot point. Look at all of the knowledgeable folks here who once got a puppy from a pet store or BYB. They learned, and made the best of it, but nobody here is criticizing them, nor should they. 


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> There is a difference between trashing a breeder and evaluating one. Almost every profession has evaluations both formal and informal. I taught in prep school for twenty years and both had yearly evaluation and served on the Career Review Committee. More, the students often use sites like Rate My Teacher and give Student evals at the end of every term. The same is true in most jobs/profession is that you are held accountable for best practices. Scrutiny against a concrete list of ethics is not "trashing".


Except that what occasionally occurs here is a group negative judgment based on insufficient or incomplete information, which then sometimes has to be walked back after the breeder comes in and defends herself. What goes on here is nothing at all like professional evaluations. I think the intent is good. I think the execution -- and I mean that word in both its senses -- is sometimes quite unfair.

I'm not saying that's what happened with this breeder, it's just a general comment. I've seen a few very unfair pile-ons here.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I've seen a couple that ended up being inaccurate where eye or heart clearances just weren't sent into the OFA but the clearances were done, but as a general matter the forum usually gets it right, IMO. If clearances are not compliant with the GRCA COE it's easy to verify. So if a breeder doesn't screen for elbow dysplasia and doesn't have current eye exams, as was the case here, IMO the criticism is right on point. People may love their dogs from this breeder very much, I have no doubt that that do. It just doesn't mean I want this forum to appear to be endorsing this breeder who is not doing everything he can to minimize production of puppies with health issues.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> People may love their dogs from this breeder very much, I have no doubt that that do. It just doesn't mean I want this forum to appear to be endorsing this breeder who is not doing everything he can to minimize production of puppies with health issues.



I feel very strongly that this forum has a responsibility to the people who use this site for research but never register or post a question formally. The bottom line is we should never, ever appear to relax our standards regarding breeders, breeding practices and the GRCA code of ethics. There is never any reason to be ugly or rude with our comments, but it is very important that we defend the standards and explain them every single chance we get. Someone may see only one thread on this site and that may be the only chance we ever get to educate them. We can't ever miss the opportunity.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Puppy buyers are adults who can handle reality and learn from it. I do not think the point is moot, for them or for others coming to research in the future, to get a grasp of where their dog came from. Yes, it hurts and I have been there in different ways on the forum, right in that seat of being told my puppy or my breeder fell short. It hurt in the short term, but it helped in the long term.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I once bought a Golden puppy from a breeder, only to find out that that breeder was horrible. I felt guilty about buying from that breeder, but still loved my dog. And I resolved not to buy from those kinds of breeders again. So while learning I had bought from a bad breeder made me feel bad (about myself, for not knowing), learning still educated me and changed me, so in that way it was a positive. So the possibility of someone coming to a thread and finding that her dog came from a bad breeder is no reason not to inform people about that bad breeder.

It doesn't matter if it hurts the feelings of someone who bought a puppy from a bad breeder. Knowledge is power, and people need to know.


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## stacebabe (Dec 18, 2012)

Thank you. I appreciate your response. And you're right. 

I didn't realize the date of the post until I already posted. Someone asked if anyone had any experience with them, I just bought a puppy, so I thought I'd share.

I immediately regretted it. I'll tuck my puppy under my arms and go back to lurking. 



Nairb said:


> Here's what bugs me about this. The OP asked about this breeder nearly two years ago, and disappeared. Stacebabe bought a pup from this breeder, found this forum, and came across this very old thread. She is obviously happy with her puppy.
> 
> Why continue to trash the breeder? Who does that help at this point? The OP is long gone, and a new forum member got her puppy there. At this point, it comes off as arrogance. I doubt stacebabe feels welcome here at this point.
> 
> Just my 2 cents......


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## stacebabe (Dec 18, 2012)

I honestly don't think Don is a bad breeder.



DanaRuns said:


> I once bought a Golden puppy from a breeder, only to find out that that breeder was horrible. I felt guilty about buying from that breeder, but still loved my dog. And I resolved not to buy from those kinds of breeders again. So while learning I had bought from a bad breeder made me feel bad (about myself, for not knowing), learning still educated me and changed me, so in that way it was a positive. So the possibility of someone coming to a thread and finding that her dog came from a bad breeder is no reason not to inform people about that bad breeder.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it hurts the feelings of someone who bought a puppy from a bad breeder. Knowledge is power, and people need to know.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

stacebabe said:


> I honestly don't think Don is a bad breeder.


It's not as simple as saying this guy is "a bad breeder." The issue is that there are gaps in the health clearances that comprise part of the bare minimum for an ethical breeding that protects a dog's health and an owner's pocketbook.

He might be a super nice guy with good intentions. That's not what's at issue here. What's at issue is the breeding of risky litters and failing to set dogs up as well as possible for long, stable lives.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

nolefan said:


> I feel very strongly that this forum has a responsibility to the people who use this site for research but never register or post a question formally. The bottom line is we should never, ever appear to relax our standards regarding breeders, breeding practices and the GRCA code of ethics. There is never any reason to be ugly or rude with our comments, but it is very important that we defend the standards and explain them every single chance we get. Someone may see only one thread on this site and that may be the only chance we ever get to educate them. We can't ever miss the opportunity.


Exactly-very well put.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

stacebabe said:


> Thank you. I appreciate your response. And you're right.
> 
> I didn't realize the date of the post until I already posted. Someone asked if anyone had any experience with them, I just bought a puppy, so I thought I'd share.
> 
> I immediately regretted it. I'll tuck my puppy under my arms and go back to lurking.


New puppy buyers usually don't get that sort welcome. You unfortunately posted for the first time on one of these breeder threads that are like dog whistles for many competitive, but well intentioned folks. 

My first post was in regards to a specific breeder, and received some great advice. The breeder I was inquiring about had far more red flags than this one. Most likely your pup will be just fine. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Just to add...for many of these people, dogs are their passion. For some, it's their profession. So, some of it is understandable.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> You unfortunately posted for the first time on one of these breeder threads that are like dog whistles for many competitive, but well intentioned folks.


I'm not sure what you are implying here. Those of us who think breeders should do all health clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics are in competition with the breeder being discussed in this thread? You could not be more wrong. It has NOTHING to do with competition or my own dogs and everything to do with unsuspecting puppy buyers who may be faced with unsound dogs with HD or ED, a puppy dropping dead from SAS or a dog requiring removal of his/her eyes from PU. All of these occurrences could be significantly reduced by doing all the clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics. And this breeder does not do them. This is not about competition, this is about doing what is RIGHT. I suggest you not infer intent behind any of my posts (or anyone's, for that matter) in the future since you seem to be way off the mark on this one.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm not a breeder, so I don't have a dog in this fight (so to speak  ). But it seems to me that the GRCA Code of Ethics is a _minimum standard_. Those who do not abide by it should rightly be the focus of criticism. Doing so saves people money, saves puppies' health and lives, and gives unsuspecting puppy buyers much needed information. I don't see this as an issue of competition. I see it as very concerned breed advocates trying to police their own, with no power to do anything but speak as loudly as possible.

On the other hand, occasionally that passion and vigilance wrongly condemns those who are doing things right, or who are making unrecognized efforts to do things right, or who are just learning, themselves, and want to do things right. But most of the time, folks here seem to get it right.

I've had a couple dogs from breeders who do not abide by the GRCA COE, and I have one now, in fact. The one I had, lived 14 years with zero health problems (she's the one lying down in the beach photo in my signature). She was an amazing dog. Wasn't close to show quality, but had perfect temperament, was incredibly smart, had an amazing nose, was brave as can be, and was a wonderful companion. She saved lives, and even had her picture in the paper once. She lived to 14. So, even though she came from a bad breeder, she was an excellent Golden Retriever. I have another dog from the same bad breeder, this one a rescue. She's a physical mess (she's the one covered in mud in my signature photo). Sweet as can be, but a bit fearful, only 44 lbs full grown, bad hips and elbows, horrible structure, dumb as a box of rocks, and people either don't know what breed she is or think she's a puppy. So the thing about breeders who don't abide by the COE is, it doesn't mean you absolutely will get a bad or unhealthy puppy, but the odds of doing so are dramatically higher and the number of potential problems are greatly increased.

Folks here are arguing in favor of an ethical system that minimizes the chance for problems in puppies -- problems that can cause dogs to suffer, that cost owners money and heartache, and which may not show up when the puppy is young. Folks here are trying to do a good thing for dogs and people. It's not a matter of competition. To say that is to misunderstand them and their motivations, I think. Do they sometimes go overboard? Sure, because passion necessarily knows excess. Is there sometimes an unfair pack mentality unleashed on a good person? Unfortunately, yes. But even the excesses are born of nothing but care for the breed, and to call it competition is just as unfair as the unfairness they are accused of.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> It's clearly directed at me... I stand by my convictions... If I make someone feel guilty about jogging with a pup, that is not my problem...


LoL... I don't know why this struck me as funny but I laughed pretty hard after reading it.... you go Sally's Mom aka the great Neuter Noticer!!!!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm not sure what you are implying here. Those of us who think breeders should do all health clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics are in competition with the breeder being discussed in this thread? You could not be more wrong. It has NOTHING to do with competition or my own dogs and everything to do with unsuspecting puppy buyers who may be faced with unsound dogs with HD or ED, a puppy dropping dead from SAS or a dog requiring removal of his/her eyes from PU. All of these occurrences could be significantly reduced by doing all the clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics. And this breeder does not do them. This is not about competition, this is about doing what is RIGHT. I suggest you not infer intent behind any of my posts (or anyone's, for that matter) in the future since you seem to be way off the mark on this one.


Wow. You really missed the intent of my comment. I was simply explaining why she didn't such a warm welcome. I also mentioned that i had received good advice from some of the same people. Sorry I wasn't more clear. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Well, I see the pack mentality has now identified me as its latest target. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Braccarius said:


> LoL... I don't know why this struck me as funny but I laughed pretty hard after reading it.... you go Sally's Mom aka the great Neuter Noticer!!!!


It would be funny if it was accurate, but it's not. 


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Well, I see the pack mentality has now identified me as its latest target.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


No, I don't think so. Please don't play the martyr. You did make some pretty provocative comments about them, so you can't really claim complete innocence when they respond. You say they misunderstood you, but you did make the comments, and you can't do so without expecting a response. If they misunderstood you, perhaps it is because you weren't clear enough in your communication. The "competition" comment certainly sounded provocative to me.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> No, I don't think so. Please don't play the martyr. You did make some pretty provocative comments about them, so you can't really claim complete innocence when they respond. You say they misunderstood you, but you did make the comments, and you can't do so without expecting a response. If they misunderstood you, perhaps it is because you weren't clear enough in your communication. The "competition" comment certainly sounded provocative to me.


Nothing wrong with being competitive. I'm competitve. So what?

My intent was never to defend the breeder, who I've stated I would not purchase a puppy from. You guys keep going back to that, and are sadly missing the point. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Goldenjack,

This has the potential to get ugly. You might want to shut it down after all. 


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Just putting this out there from my teaching background...
When communicating a message 55% is delivered through body language, 38% through vocal properties like inflection and rate of speech. Only 7% comes from our choice of words. 
On an Internet forum we only get that 7%. Which is why miscommunication, misunderstanding, and incorrect perception of the speakers attitude can abound.

This is also why I tend to write books on here and why I normally take quite awhile to craft a response at all. 

But, *** Sigh*** I agree. At this point not much value is being added to the topic at hand. Perhaps it should be shut down.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Like I said before....this is the last time I ever try to defend an individual member. It's not worth the trouble. 


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Nothing wrong with being competitive. I'm competitve. So what?
> 
> My intent was never to defend the breeder, who I've stated I would not purchase a puppy from. You guys keep going back to that, and are sadly missing the point.
> 
> ...


Well, first, it's not about competition. I think you've misjudged that. Perhaps you're seeing it through the prism of your own acknowledged competitiveness?

Second, I hope you're not including me in the "you guys." First, I'm not one of the people you're having a problem with. I'm trying to be a voice of calm. Second, I never accused you of defending the breeder. So, again, I hope that comment wasn't directed at me. I think you're feeling defensive at this point, and I think you're not communicating as clearly as you hope to.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

LJack said:


> Just putting this out there from my teaching background...
> When communicating a message 55% is delivered through body language, 38% through vocal properties like inflection and rate of speech. Only 7% comes from our choice of words.
> On an Internet forum we only get that 7%. Which is why miscommunication, misunderstanding, and incorrect perception of the speakers attitude can abound.
> 
> ...


I agree. I'm out.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm closing this as it's not going anywhere good.

In the future I would suggest re-reading posts before you hit "Reply" to see if they can be misinterpreted. One cannot be surprised if forum members respond to posts that seem intentionally written to bait others.


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