# teaching scent articles



## hotel4dogs

As a side comment, Tito LOVES the utility exercises, there's not a one he doesn't just love to do. The articles are the only ones we haven't done, and I don't want to do anything that would change his enthusiasm for utility. I know everyone here trains pretty positive, so it's probably not an issue, but just wanted to mention it.


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## FlyingQuizini

What methods are you familiar with? What does your trainer use?

I'm using the tie-down method. BUT, the first thing I did - started when Quiz was a pup - was make sure there was no aversion to the metal article. Lots of take/hold/give/reward with the metal article.

We're not spending too much time on articles. I find it's one of those things that if you're seriously intend to be training it, you need to do it everyday. I can't commit to that right now, so I'm not really training them yet. I started it, but then couldn't do it everyday so I decided to stop for now. I'm such a perfectionist that it'll probably be 2 years before I show in Utility, so I'll have plenty of time to get serious about articles once we get our CDX. I hope to be polished to my standards by March of '09.

-Stephanie


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## hotel4dogs

LOL, Stephanie, I was expecting you to tell me not to rush him! <very big grin>
He's not at all adverse to metal objects, including the TV remote, my cell phone, empty pop cans (all of which he's expected to fetch) and the metal utility article. Doesn't seem to have any problem with them at all.
Our trainers use the tie down method, so I guess that's what I'll go with. But I'm very interested in any potential problems that I might cause by doing something wrong (see, I'm learning to ask first now!) rather than trying to undo something!
For example, I'm real interested in your comment that you need to commit to doing this every day, and you're the second person I've heard say that. Why is that? Most of his stuff I only do a couple times a week (in a good week!)
Thanks!
Barb


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## FlyingQuizini

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm real interested in your comment that you need to commit to doing this every day, and you're the second person I've heard say that. Why is that? Most of his stuff I only do a couple times a week (in a good week!)
> Thanks!
> Barb


Well, that's what I've always been taught and have been told by a number of people who know more about it than I do, so in large part, I'm willing to take it as fact based on that! However, when I think it through from a training stand point, I can say that it's held true with *any* discrimination exercise I've taught so far - whether it be a working trial search square or a simulated narc-dog search exercise with Quiz or a color or shape discrimination behavior on a chicken. 

While the dogs aren't sharing their thoughts on the matter, I would speculate that it's one of the harder exercises for them to "get" in the beginning. Since we can't tell them just what we're looking for ("bring the one that smells like me!") it's an awful lot of repetition before the dog really comes to understand that's what we want. It's a complex exercise. It's not just "use your nose" but rather "use your nose to find the one that smells like me, and please learn to disregard all the other smells... both the ones on the other articles and also the ones in environment". They're using their nose all the time... and that's self rewarding, so we're really having to fine tune the act of using the nose to fit the mold of what we want.

I think the need for daily training comes down to really needing a very large number of repetitions for the dog to learn the behavior. I think if you're not training daily, it's going to be really, really hard to get w/in the range of the correct number of repetitions.

Again... just my speculation. I'd be very interested to know why the other person felt the same way. Do you know?


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## hotel4dogs

No, I don't know why the other person told me that I need to train it every day. If I see her any time soon I'll ask. 
This one just strikes me as sooo hard to teach, because as you said, we can't just tell them, get the one that smells like me.
I've also been told that I need to have someone else scent the other articles, so that he's not just picking up the one with A scent, he's picking up the one with MY scent. But they should scent them a long time before I plan to use them, like the previous day or days before, just so the articles don't have a sterile scent. My scent should be fresher than theirs, I guess is the point. Any opinion on that?
Also, I've read 2 different ways to approach this.
One is to have ALL the articles with my scent, reward reward reward for just bringing me one. The have just 5 of the 6 with my scent, reward reward reward for bringing me one with my scent. Then 4 with my scent, and so on. Back up if he's consistently making a mistake.
The other is to do it the other way. Only 1 with my scent, and 1 without. Reward reward reward for bringing me the correct one. When he does that consistently, add another unscented one, and so on.
Which approach do you use and why??
Thanks for letting me pick your brain!
Barb






FlyingQuizini said:


> Well, that's what I've always been taught and have been told by a number of people who know more about it than I do, so in large part, I'm willing to take it as fact based on that! However, when I think it through from a training stand point, I can say that it's held true with *any* discrimination exercise I've taught so far - whether it be a working trial search square or a simulated narc-dog search exercise with Quiz or a color or shape discrimination behavior on a chicken.
> 
> While the dogs aren't sharing their thoughts on the matter, I would speculate that it's one of the harder exercises for them to "get" in the beginning. Since we can't tell them just what we're looking for ("bring the one that smells like me!") it's an awful lot of repetition before the dog really comes to understand that's what we want. It's a complex exercise. It's not just "use your nose" but rather "use your nose to find the one that smells like me, and please learn to disregard all the other smells... both the ones on the other articles and also the ones in environment". They're using their nose all the time... and that's self rewarding, so we're really having to fine tune the act of using the nose to fit the mold of what we want.
> 
> I think the need for daily training comes down to really needing a very large number of repetitions for the dog to learn the behavior. I think if you're not training daily, it's going to be really, really hard to get w/in the range of the correct number of repetitions.
> 
> Again... just my speculation. I'd be very interested to know why the other person felt the same way. Do you know?


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## hotel4dogs

oh and another thing, I've been told to place the articles right next to each other when first starting out so that he learns that I don't just want him to go pick one up, I want him to select one. (This if you are using the 2 article method). I'm probably not explaining that very well, I'll see if I can find the article which explained it.
Opinion?


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## hotel4dogs

Here's the original text....

"...Most people think that putting the articles far apart will make scenting easier. And it probably does. But we're talking about a behaviour as difficult for the dog as telling a black hat from a white hat is for you. The PROBLEM is the EXPLANATION of what you want the dog to do. "I want you to find the one I just touched, and not the one that somebody else touched that I've been carrying around in a bag in my car for three days" doesn't translate all that easily. If your dog is retrieving, it will be easy for her to think this is just another retrieving exercise, and if you put the two article far apart, there's no reason for her to think otherwise. So put them together. If you're using dumbells, you can butt them right up against each other...."


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## LibertyME

Have you read any tracking books or hung around with folks that track?
I learned a ton about how scent moves, floods, and sticks as well as the physiology of how dogs use their noses from local search and rescue folks.


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## gabbys mom

I go to two utility instructors- one teaches Janet DeMello's Around the Clock method and one teaches the tie down method. *I* like the tie down method the best, but Gabby cheats too darn much at it to make worthwhile for us. 

Here is an explanation of the Janet DeMello method: http://www.heatherweb.com/writing/demello1.html. You can buy her video here: http://www.jandemellobordercollie.com/CompetitionObedienceVideos.htm

One of the big problems I've seen with the tie down method is with the smart dogs. They tend to learn quickly to find the unattached article instead of the one that smells like mom. Some (like mine) do it even by whacking the articles with their feet instead of even putting their head close to their board. Other dogs- the want to be right ones- "check their answers" by grabbing the one they think it is and seeing if it is tied down. 

The other problem I've seen at our club is people that leave the articles tied down for months (Connie Cleveland addresses this in her book/DVDs - and I think so does Terri Arnold). The dogs tend to freak out once they are untied. However, the tie down method has definitely worked for 1000s of dogs (obviously).


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## hotel4dogs

no, but that's a great idea, thanks.




LibertyME said:


> Have you read any tracking books or hung around with folks that track?
> I learned a ton about how scent moves, floods, and sticks as well as the physiology of how dogs use their noses from local search and rescue folks.


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## hotel4dogs

Our instructors say that you have to have very long tie-downs to prevent exactly that problem. They use tie downs that are about 18 inches long. The dog gets pretty far away before he realizes it's still attached! And, of course, you always put the untied one down on a tie down, so it *looks* tied down.
This is so confusing to me! How will I ever get thru to him what I want him to do????????



gabbys mom said:


> I go to two utility instructors- one teaches Janet DeMello's Around the Clock method and one teaches the tie down method. *I* like the tie down method the best, but Gabby cheats too darn much at it to make worthwhile for us.
> 
> Here is an explanation of the Janet DeMello method: http://www.heatherweb.com/writing/demello1.html. You can buy her video here: http://www.jandemellobordercollie.com/CompetitionObedienceVideos.htm
> 
> One of the big problems I've seen with the tie down method is with the smart dogs. They tend to learn quickly to find the unattached article instead of the one that smells like mom. Some (like mine) do it even by whacking the articles with their feet instead of even putting their head close to their board. Other dogs- the want to be right ones- "check their answers" by grabbing the one they think it is and seeing if it is tied down.
> 
> The other problem I've seen at our club is people that leave the articles tied down for months (Connie Cleveland addresses this in her book/DVDs - and I think so does Terri Arnold). The dogs tend to freak out once they are untied. However, the tie down method has definitely worked for 1000s of dogs (obviously).


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## gabbys mom

hotel4dogs said:


> Our instructors say that you have to have very long tie-downs to prevent exactly that problem. They use tie downs that are about 18 inches long. The dog gets pretty far away before he realizes it's still attached! And, of course, you always put the untied one down on a tie down, so it *looks* tied down.
> This is so confusing to me! How will I ever get thru to him what I want him to do????????


Let me know when you figure it out- I could use some help  We started with zip ties on the tie down board (very popular around here)- she started out sniffing, doing just fine- but when she grabbed a wrong one, she realized they were tied down and she could "check" and started "checking her answers." She then graduated to simply whacking it with her paw instead of sniffing at all. We switched to fishing line and longer line - still does it, the little turd. Then I tried tying the wrong ones together (18-24 inches of fishing line, so it would still be a correction, but delayed- and I could get the board out of there)- and she figured that out too. She's a turkey. 

We've gone back and are starting with the DeMello method all over to make sure she's got no way of checking herself. Except I think she's got a self confidence issue from being able to check herself all that time.


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## FlyingQuizini

When I was first starting articles, I used two w/o any scent that were tied to the board and one with hot scent loose on the board, which in the very beginning, was my hand specifically scented with hot dog. I was told to stay on that until we knew he was using his nose and *not scenting with his mouth*. At that point, then we would add "other" scent on the ones that are tied down.

I also have instructions for using the "scent them all like me... then one less like me... then two less like me, etc" method. I got that from Steve White who does narc dog stuff. He said if you teach it that way, teach one type (leather v. metal) at a time and expect it to take LOTS of repetitions at each step. I might dabble with that method, but using something *other* than my actual obedience articles just in case I screw it up. I don't want Quiz associating my messed up version of the game with the obedience articles. 

My advise is to teach articles under close supervision b/c it's so hard. Do you ever do private lessons with your trainers? Have them outline the first few steps for you... go home, get those... have another lesson.


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## goldengirls550

How often do you guys think at minimum they should be aired out??? I'm starting article training (getting some for christmas) in a little bit too.


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## gabbys mom

FlyingQuizini said:


> When I was first starting articles, I used two w/o any scent that were tied to the board and one with hot scent loose on the board, which in the very beginning, was my hand specifically scented with hot dog. I was told to stay on that until we knew he was using his nose and *not scenting with his mouth*. At that point, then we would add "other" scent on the ones that are tied down.
> 
> I also have instructions for using the "scent them all like me... then one less like me... then two less like me, etc" method. I got that from Steve White who does narc dog stuff. He said if you teach it that way, teach one type (leather v. metal) at a time and expect it to take LOTS of repetitions at each step. I might dabble with that method, but using something *other* than my actual obedience articles just in case I screw it up. I don't want Quiz associating my messed up version of the game with the obedience articles.
> 
> My advise is to teach articles under close supervision b/c it's so hard. Do you ever do private lessons with your trainers? Have them outline the first few steps for you... go home, get those... have another lesson.


By not scenting with his mouth, do you mean licking? Or do you mean something else? We did a variation on that- we used Cheez Wiz. Very fun. 

I almost do exclusively privates- each trainer has their strengths and that's why I go to both of them- but it's a good reminder of what I want to focus on next time


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## FlyingQuizini

gabbys mom said:


> By not scenting with his mouth, do you mean licking? Or do you mean something else? We did a variation on that- we used Cheez Wiz. Very fun.


No, mouth scenting isn't licking... dogs have what's called the vomeronasal organ, which is along the roof of the mouth in the back. It allows them to take in scent with their mouth. Add'l info is here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7M...=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA43,M1 

Anyway, I was told that in articles, you don't want mouth scenting... although now I want to research it further and find out why... it seems that the vomeronasal organ is quite effective? But, there must be a drawback somewhere. I'll have to look into it.


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## Kohanagold

Wow, I'm learning a lot here! 

I've wanted to start Paige on the scent stuff for awhile, but thought we should get a grasp of the retrieve first (if she wont bring me the dumbbell without scent involved, how's she supposed to do the scent discrimination stuff?). On a positive note, we're getting past our dumbbell issues (hopefully we dont go backwards!) and so its interesting for me to read how this is taught. 

Sydney is a tracking dog but I've not started Paige on that yet either (obedience pretty much rules her time right now). I often thought "I wonder if there are parallels", but its really not the same, I dont think. Its one thing to ask a dog to follow a scent path through ground cover and a whole other to ask them to pick something up that smells like me. I certainly dont want to confuse her, so my question is, Will teaching her to track help or hinder or have no impact on us (maybe I'm better off waiting with the tracking stuff?). Sydney will never be a utility dog... I dont think she'll ever be a CDX dog. Its just not her thing. So I dont have to worry with her, but I wonder about Paige because I can teach her to track later if it will make this easier. I dont even know where to begin really, but its neat to read about people that are doing it and to see what I have to look forward to. So thank you for bringing this up! BJ


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## LibertyME

Because Liberty is my experimental dog... <grin> Ive been playing around with pvc scent tubes. Specifically to teach her the concept of using her nose to seach a pile of like objects.

She is really good at finding 1 of 15 tubes that contain a scented q-tip. (she will work vanilla and almond).

I can pile them up or spread them out - doesnt seem to matter...she will dig through and find the one. I tried hiding the tubes in a room...she did not transition to that well....my guess is that it took too long to search the area...that she got impatient and grabbed. I didnt want her to 'just grab one' again - so didnt repeat the exercise even on a smaller scale...like find

I have not transitioned to my scent, but am hopeful that she will make the transiton.
Then make the transition to articles...

If she doesnt, well I'll have one heck of a vanilla detection dog!

Anyone ever use or see non-traditional articles?
If so, what did you use/see?


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## FlyingQuizini

LibertyME said:


> Anyone ever use or see non-traditional articles?
> If so, what did you use/see?


For the Steve White detection stuff, we used empty green bean cans with dog food lids on top and the dog food lids had 4 holes punched in them with a leather punch. We also used old 35mm film cans with one hole punched in the can lid.

He also suggested going to a shoe smith and getting squares of shoe sole leather. I think I'm going to do that next.

-S


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## LibertyME

I know Liberty thinks it is great - yet to be seen if it translates or just a great game!
She does seem to get the whole idea of working the pile...
She does seem to get that she has to descriminate between a scented object and unscented ones...

Was Steve of the opinion that this was one way to teach descrimination?

Will have to find a cobbler in the area~!


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## LibertyME

woohooo! found one about 5 minutes from home!
Wonder if he will think I am nuts!
Any suggestion of size of the squares? 3-4" should be alright eh?


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## FlyingQuizini

Yeah, I think 3-4" should be fine. That's probably what I'd end up asking for, too!

Steve does a lot of early CC work with the odor. When we did the vanilla stuff, we first made sure our nose target was rock solid (to the point that we could get 10 touches for one treat w/o the dog getting frustrated by delayed primary reinforcement) and then we introduced the odor and continued building a huge reinforcement history with targeting to the scented object. Then we added the report behavior of the sit until we had the chain solid (touch - sit - click - treat). Only then did we start putting the odor out into the environment and asking the dog to search for it. We didn't get too far long with it in the environment over the two short days, so I'm not exactly sure where he goes from there.

I suspect he'd say what you're doing could totally work. I'm guessing the leap to having the pile in the other room was just too much...??? Oh wait, did you put the whole pile in the other room or just the scented one? Now I have to go back a page and look!


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## LibertyME

ooops....I didnt make that very clear!
She can easily be sitting in the bathroom...I will lay out a pile in the livingroom...go back to her in the bathroom and send her - she will leave the bathroom go to the living room search the pile and bring me the scented tube.

What she could not do was:
If I took 8 tubes and partially hid them and walked her around the room to search....she would sniff one. then have to walk to the next....then the next...
There seemed to be both too much distance between objects and it took too much time...she was frustrated and then grabbed...

As she was able (in previous exercises) to simple search a 5' square and find the one she wanted...

(I fell to the greedy-trainer syndrome! LOL)


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## hotel4dogs

methinks you are living to close to Canada, eh?




LibertyME said:


> woohooo! found one about 5 minutes from home!
> Wonder if he will think I am nuts!
> Any suggestion of size of the squares? 3-4" should be alright eh?


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## DNL2448

I am re-visiting this thead, as I am curious what you all learned after this originally "aired". I actually found this while doing a Google search! 

Any new ideas out there?

Also, who here uses non-traditional articles, Stephanie touched on it a little with the shoe heels. I've also heard of SPAM cans and leather pouches.


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## LibertyME

I did back liberty up...moved tubes closer together. She did end up building up her stamina to search a room looking for the one tube that was scented with her search scent. 

Under the guidance of a person that competes in Schutzhund-style tracking and is active is S&R with her dogs...we have been working on article searches and moved onto tracking.

Given that he now will seek out specific human scent and can ignore cross tracks. I'm eager to see if this work will translate to the much more formal article exercise. ;-)


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## hotel4dogs

wow, I see this thread has been revived! 
We went from "just getting ready to teach articles" in late Nov. 2008 to UDX in early Nov. 2010....so the tie down method worked for us.
it's cool to see old threads!


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## FlyingQuizini

DNL2448 said:


> I am re-visiting this thead, as I am curious what you all learned after this originally "aired". I actually found this while doing a Google search!
> 
> Any new ideas out there?
> 
> Also, who here uses non-traditional articles, Stephanie touched on it a little with the shoe heels. I've also heard of SPAM cans and leather pouches.


I ended up teaching the utility scent discrimination with actual utility articles, but I've since added a set of plastic carnival ring toss rings and we often train with those b/c I have so many... I can play with a really big pile!


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## DNL2448

Okay Steph, I have to ask, why do you have so many carnival ring toss rings?


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## Loisiana

Well duh Laura, what do you think whippet muzzles were made for? The perfect place to practice your carnival ring tossing skills! :


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## DNL2448

Silly me, what was I thinking????


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## FlyingQuizini

DNL2448 said:


> Okay Steph, I have to ask, why do you have so many carnival ring toss rings?


I initially bought them thinking I'd find a fun way to use them in one of my group dog training classes ... like maybe a down-stay ring toss game where the dog was between you and the bottles you were trying to land a ring on. 

I'm always looking for fun stuff to use in class. I have a bag of bean bags too!


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