# Toy as reinforcer, preventing injury



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

We've only recently got enough interest in toys/tugging to use this as a reinforcer in agility. And WOW does it make a difference! The tugging tonight was fabulous! But I'm concerned about the skidding to a stop on a rubber mat type floor, but also dirt and grass

What should I be doing to make this as safe as possible?
Are we better off sticking with food? 
Am I just being crazy?

I love agility and running in the woods. But sometimes I just get worried about Gryff getting hurt and I'm tempted to stay safe in the house!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Dogs do need to be dogs. Yes I worry about injury too, but I can only protect them so much. I think from the sounds of it, keep the tugging going. 

Gabby looks like she might be my tug dog. I have tried with Belle and Teddi (and Art with Quinn) and they sort of do. I bought the tugs with food pouches thinking that would gain interest... not really but Gabby LOVES Teddi's tug. It had some broken up sweet potato treats in it, which had dried even more and there is a small hole, and they would drop out from time to time... Gabby thought that was pretty cool. So far I keep that as Gabby's special toy only from time to time and only her and I can play with it. Not the other dogs.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

What injury are you worried about?

My dogs bash into stuff in the woods all the time. I have to have a sort of anti-plastic-bubble mindset about it. I take all reasonable precautions to prevent injury, but I won't keep them away from a fun, healthy activity just because they might break a leg. I still have heart attacks from time to time when they decide to jump off a ten foot boulder, but I've learned to trust their sense of self-preservation when it comes to falling off stuff.

Jax gave himself a hell of a scrape and shiner once by misjudging a jump and smacking his face into a rock. But he also summited one of New England's highest peaks that day (not that he cares about 360 degree views), met a dozen new people, and had the time of his life.

Gus once tore the skin off his pads playing frisbee with some high school kids. I learned that day that a dirt road more was more abrasive than I thought, and I wouldn't let him play that game on the same surface again after that, but once I got over the self-recrimination and cleaned up the wounds, I didn't regret having him out with me that day.

I've been lucky not to have any broken bones with the boys, given the lifestyle they live, but I'm prepared for that risk and the reality of hiking out of a place with an injured dog on my back if it comes to it. Even so, we ain't staying home.

In agility, I would worry about the common, documented injuries (repetitive jumps and landings), but I can't imagine that tugging causes undue stress on any joints. It's such a common reinforcer in agility that I would feel pretty confident that people would have noticed any common injuries caused by it.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Getting the toy..skidding to a stop an the potential for cruciate injuries especially!

During the tugging...it's me that's most likely to get hurt he was really pulling hard last night.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I get worried about power turns because of ACL injuries. But, my dogs love to play fetch, wrestle and tug. Harley loves tug so much he'll grab the leash and pull for everything he's worth.

I am paranoid at the best of times when it comes to my dogs. My two never left my yard until they were done their shots. I brush their teeth every second day and check them for ticks after every play date in the summer (I've never even seen a tick in my 28 years). Try to let them have fun and try to have fun as well... you didn't get a dog to worry about him and limit him.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Instead of using the toy as the 'target' use a target of some sort as a 'touch that and it's party time'. Mini pylons would work for that, or the flat food based targets. It also prevents a bit of the 'oh but my toy isn't there, so...' because you can then stash the toy in different spots, under the contacts, in a bag on the chair, behind the tunnels, and grab it out when he's not looking. That way he thinks 'wow, a toy just appears when I work well!!!' and he's focused on his job AND you. Depending on the tug, you can stash them in lots of places (also depends on your equipment of course) and have them wherever you need them to be.

Lana


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Would I still get the same benefits of using a toy as a reinforcer? I would -think- that part of the reason the toy works so well is the chase (and history of reinforcement) and I've not been able to build up the same with tossed food, I've tried!

I tried to use a similar concept with the running concepts to get Gryff to drive ahead.. b ut I ended up with a headache.... Contact behavior did not meet criteria, dog touched target. I don't reinforce, but touoching the contact is in a minor way reinforcing. But if he's not reinforced for several reps, the target behavior will deteriorate.

Very good idea though, we'll return to playing around with it! Thank you!!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I have never heard of a dog injuring itself due to tugging, but we also do not have any indoor trials here in So Cal, so I have never run or practiced on rubber matting. The thought really never occurred to me and both of my dogs are pretty vigorous tuggers. Is there something specific that your dog is doing that is worrying you?

Everything we do in life involves some risk, but staying at home all the time to be safe is not the way to live!

Happy tugging!


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I re-read my post...I was really unclear about the specifics....

I toss the toy and he brings it back for the tugging, it's not the tugging that worries me, but the chasing of the disc/tug toy before he brings it back that scares me.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> I re-read my post...I was really unclear about the specifics....
> 
> I toss the toy and he brings it back for the tugging, it's not the tugging that worries me, but the chasing of the disc/tug toy before he brings it back that scares me.


Is there any significant difference between this and a dog chasing down a tennis ball, wheeling around, and sprinting to retrieve. 'Cause I gotta tell you, I've logged hundreds of hours on that on some dogs without a problem.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I have never had a problem with that either. My trainer has mentioned he does not want to see toys (specifically frisbees) thrown high so the dog get them while they are still up in the air, he said has seen too many dogs injure themselves torquing their body in the air while running at a fast full speed. Of course I am sure there are tons of frisbee dogs who might disagree with that...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

sammydog said:


> I have never had a problem with that either. My trainer has mentioned he does not want to see toys (specifically frisbees) thrown high so the dog get them while they are still up in the air, he said has seen too many dogs injure themselves torquing their body in the air while running at a fast full speed. Of course I am sure there are tons of frisbee dogs who might disagree with that...


I agree. 

When Quiz was young, he tweaked his neck running hard to go pick up a stationary ball, but we've logged hundreds of hours since and he's been okay. I have to figure it's one of those "can't stop life" things. Retrieving brings us too much joy not to do it. 

I find when use a toy as a reinforcer in agility -- specifically something stationary that he drives toward, he's not running as fast as when he's playing a retrieve game, so it's always seemed safe.

As for those frisbee dogs, they might disagree now while the dogs are young, but I think the vast majority of them end up retired due to injuries by the time they're seven or so... :-(


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I always throw the toy rather than having it out front and stationary (exception, is if I have a helper and s/he has the tug/toy)... and he never does high catches. 

But we also don't do a lot of play fetch with any of the dogs beacuse I'm worried about the fast stops. I'll try to be less worried!


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