# you would not know the truth if it bit you in the



## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

GoldRocksMom said:


> *A.....ND I have no more time & energy to keep explaining*


Then, why are you here...and why are you still explaining???

400 clearances? In a WEEK????? Are you serious? How many dogs do you have????


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

ok you said you can do 400 clearances but yet its too expensive to do the license?? I don't get this one...


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

:wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I did the math... 400 clearances is 100 dogs... if each dog gets four (hip, heart, elbow, eye). What am I missing... I guess it is six if you do thyroid and knees, too... ??? Clarify?


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

:wavey::wavey:***********************


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Nicci831 said:


> ok you said you can do 400 clearances but yet its too expensive to do the license?? I don't get this one...


a license would mean that her dogs have to live in kennels, which is not what she wanted....


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

GoldRocksMom said:


> CAN YOU READ?
> I DID NOT SAY 400 CLEARANCES DONE IN A WEEK.
> GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT THEN ASK AN INTELLEGENT QUESTION



I believe you mean "intelligent," right? Oh, wait...why am I asking YOU that? LOL


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

GoldRocksMom, you're alienating forum members that are looking for answers. That's not a good strategy here.

We are NOT stupid. We DO have brain cells.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> I believe you mean "intelligent," right? Oh, wait...why am I asking YOU that? LOL


 
NIIICE, attack her spelling, hit her where it hurts. :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

I'm sorry you bothered to waste your valuable time GRM. These people have made up their minds.

My sympathy to you for your mother and sister. I've been in your shoes with a mother who had cancer. Please save your energy for your sister and your mother and your Goldens....family is precious whether human or canine.


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

*************************


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

{{{{heavy sigh}}}}

why can we not be civil, just this once. Please. Everyone. Let's just TALK.


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

*************************


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

************************


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

GoldRocksMom said:


> CLARIFY WHAT JENNA?
> YOUR DOING THE MATH WITHOUT THE NEEDED INFORMATION
> TO DO IT CORRECTLY
> 
> ...


 
whoa there. i think youre making this worse on yourself. 

im also confused about 400 clearances...? that is quite a bit, considering ive heard you only have 40-50 dogs.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I never said it did, Kim. It is simply why I don't think the horrible people do need sympathy, which was not addressing anything to do with you.

That's why I asked you to clarify, because I am confused.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> whoa there. i think youre making this worse on yourself.
> 
> im also confused about 400 clearances...? that is quite a bit, considering ive heard you only have 40-50 dogs.


I think she is just stating that she has 400 clearances to be sent in, not that she has 400 dogs!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Well, I wanted to talk to you. You obviously don't want to talk to me.

Okay.


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## Sunny Delight (Mar 10, 2007)

GoldRocksMom said:


> *This week will be yet again another week that over 400 clearances,*
> *ALREADY COMPLETED will not be sent in to the OFA.*


I can see how someone might read this as 400 clearances having been done in a week. I don't think it means they can't read or are asking an unintelligent question, but I also realize you are quite angry and frustrated right now and feeling very attacked.


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

********************


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I have been reading all of the stuff being said about GRM and I only wish the best out come for all involved. I do not want to get into anything with anyone but I wish the best for all invloved...I hope that a lot of us here REALLY only want that too in thier hearts!!!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

GoldRocksMom said:


> THE DOGS I HAVE BRED HAVE THEIR CLEARANCES, PERIOD


So, the "400 clearances" that you haven't yet sent in are for dogs you haven't yet bred? Is that correct? I will ask you again (a seemingly intelligent question -- or at least intelligible, if nothing else), just how many dogs do you have?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I want nothing more than to see all is well, as the photos show... beautiful, happy dogs. My ONLY issues are sheer numbers and clearance questions when dogs I search are not listed. Period. If you can show me they have the clearances, that's wonderful. Nothing would please me more.

The rest was a personal discussion with another member (whom I like and enjoy her posts) about whether true millers of the worst kind deserve compassion. It was NOT about you. But any such topic will bring up heated discussions, naturally! Especially from people who HAVE done a lot of hardcore rescue work.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

A clearance doesn't have to be sent in to the OFA to be a valid clearance. Once the test is done and is normal, it is a valid clearance. Hip and elbows are a little different though.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> A clearance doesn't have to be sent in to the OFA to be a valid clearance. Once the test is done and is normal, it is a valid clearance. Hip and elbows are a little different though.


According to whom? Nothing sarcastic here, Becky. I respect you a lot. Please explain this, because I would only value the opionion of OFA or a very respected specialist.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> According to whom? Nothing sarcastic here, Becky. I respect you a lot. Please explain this, because I would only value the opionion of OFA or a very respected specialist.


Exactly, but if I go in and have my dogs eyes done by an opthomologist and they are normal, I dont have to send it in to CERF to be a clearance, same with heart, patellas, thyroid.....etc....

If the tests are done and you have the proof, why is it not considered a clearance? I send all mine in, but from what I understand you do not have to. I think what Kimberly is trying to say is, she has all of the tests done and proof, but has not sent them in to the OFA.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Hmm, maybe for eyes? Heart I don't know. What about hips and elbows? You said they're different. Do you feel they should go to OFA?


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

JENNAAAAAAAA sorry to interrupt, are you going to call me?


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Hmm, maybe for eyes? Heart I don't know. What about hips and elbows? You said they're different. Do you feel they should go to OFA?


Unless they are read by a specialist and you have the report, yes. You can go to a cardiologist and have the heart cleared and not send it in too, same with patellas and thyroid.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

OK, thought so, I agree... I would be okay with a specialist.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

I personally think (please no one flip on me that since some members of our forum have seen her dogs and pictures and most agree she does love them very much that maybe she should be supported by the community until charges are actually brought against her for cruelty or such things.I have read she is having zoning problems which must suck.She has had too many dogs , yes but maybe someone could easily get in a bit over there head wanting to help.From what I read she was a breeder but when a fire happened at another home she took in the dogs belonging to that home and tried to find them homes.I can't really fault someone for wanting to help too much.I'm sure that after this huge mess has happened she will be much more cautious in the future as to how things are handled.I'm not choosing sides as I am new and not looking to ruffle feathers but I do think that maybe it would be more useful to offer to help her place her rescues (not her own puppies) while she is going thru this difficult time.We all Love the goldens and we need to probably stop looking at whats been done(if anything really) and look into what can be done.This is just the opinion of a new member but I thought I'd take a chance on sharing it.I wish you the best of luck with your family and zoning issues although I do not know you.Again , I MOST LIKELY do not know as much of the story as you guys but this is just based on what I have read.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> Exactly, but if I go in and have my dogs eyes done by an opthomologist and they are normal, I dont have to send it in to CERF to be a clearance, same with heart, patellas, thyroid.....etc....
> 
> If the tests are done and you have the proof, why is it not considered a clearance? I send all mine in, but from what I understand you do not have to. I think what Kimberly is trying to say is, she has all of the tests done and proof, but has not sent them in to the OFA.


But why wouldn't you? The cost is minimal, and CERF, OFA are the "gold standard" for official clearances. There's no reason NOT to, IMO.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

So, for her to have 400 clearances, but not having them sent in, as long as they were done and read and cleared and she has the proof, why bash her for not sending them in to the OFA? That doesn't mean she has not done them, it means she has not sent them in to be listed on the database.

Like I said, I send all of mine in, but that is my preference so my puppy buyers can verify that I have had them done if they so choose.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> I think she is just stating that she has 400 clearances to be sent in, not that she has 400 dogs!


 
I KNOW she doesnt have 400 dogs...but why so many clearances for 40-60 dogs?


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

foreveramber said:


> I KNOW she doesnt have 400 dogs...but why so many clearances for 40-60 dogs?


I believe she has clearances on dogs she has placed in other homes and that she no longer breeds as well. She has years worth to be sent in from what I understand.

Also, there are several clearances that you can do. I personally do 7 things. Hip, elbow, patella, heart, eyes, thyroid and CHIC DNA.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> I KNOW she doesnt have 400 dogs...but why so many clearances for 40-60 dogs?



Maybe she meant 400 clearances back logged over the whole time she has been breeding and yet another week gone by she hasn't sent them in.Maybe she just shows the clearances for the parents of the pup she is selling to the buyers and just doesn't care for the database.Again , just trying to help


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

So that's your big beef, Sit? She didn't mail them in?

You gotta admit that's better than not having them at all, as per the accusations!

I think you are nit-picking just for fun. It sounds like a personal vendetta.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

GoldRocksMom said:


> Jenna and Leah,
> maybe you missed the threads, the clearances are done on our dogs
> as well as many offspring and we have done rescues
> they are just not listed on the database yet
> ...


you know what. i have not bashed you or been rude to you. i have only questioned. you do not need to treat me, and anyone else like this, expecially when we are asking honest questions with no intention of accusing you of anything. i just said whoa because i was surprised about how rude you were to ACC. 

as for the facts. i have no idea what is fact and what is fiction. which is why i am asking questions.


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

"m sure not sure what to make of all this..


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

Monomer or whatever his name is has got to be lovin' this.

Have you noticed that after opening this can of worms, he didn't bother to post again? All this hub-bub must just make his boring day.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I give up. No more for me.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Penny'smom said:


> Have you noticed that after opening this can of worms, he didn't bother to post again? .


 
thank you. i hate to bring him up, which is why im glad you mentioned this.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Penny'smom said:


> So that's your big beef, Sit? She didn't mail them in?
> 
> You gotta admit that's better than not having them at all, as per the accusations!
> 
> I think you are nit-picking just for fun. It sounds like a personal vendetta.


Nope, definitely not nit-picking. And certainly not for fun. The facts remain that any GOOD breeder who actually DOES the clearances, sends them in to the appropriate organizations (OFA, CERF). Not sure what the big deal is. The cost to send them in are negligible in comparison to the cost of the actual test.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> Nope, definitely not nit-picking. And certainly not for fun. The facts remain that any GOOD breeder who actually DOES the clearances, sends them in to the appropriate organizations (OFA, CERF). Not sure what the big deal is. The cost to send them in are negligible in comparison to the cost of the actual test.


 
regarding her post, she doesnt have time to send them in. also taking into account the 4 grand in attorney fees...?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Not to mention that as far as OFA goes, you don't have the clearances until the xrays have been sent in and read, unlike eyes and hearts. With eyes and hearts, the OFA is merely providing a listing and record service so you can have the clearances without having them recorded in the OFA database. With hips and elbows, they are giving the actual clearances themselves. Until that is done, there are no clearances for hips and elbows.

Most vets actually send the xrays in themselves because it is easier,and you just write out the checks right then and there. And yes, the OFA fee for reading is much much less than the cost of the xrays. I believe I paid close to $350 for xrays for my boy and less than $50 for the OFA fee, anyway, far less than the costs of the xrays.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Not to mention that as far as OFA goes, you don't have the clearances until the xrays have been sent in and read, unlike eyes and hearts. With eyes and hearts, the OFA is merely providing a listing and record service so you can have the clearances without having them recorded in the OFA database. With hips and elbows, they are giving the actual clearances themselves. Until that is done, there are no clearances for hips and elbows.
> 
> Most vets actually send the xrays in themselves because it is easier,and you just write out the checks right then and there. And yes, the OFA fee for reading is much much less than the cost of the xrays. I believe I paid close to $350 for xrays for my boy and less than $50 for the OFA fee, anyway, far less than the costs of the xrays.



*Thank you! *You explained it very well! (At least to those who can read, LOL!)


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Not getting into this specifically.....but for hips there is also PennHip. I did both with our show Newf. Only doing OFA for our non-show girl. And they'll be done when she's spayed.

I'll probably do both for Cole as well...not sure yet.

Elbows would have to be OFA'd to get a clearance. Eyes would have to be CERF. Everything else can be cleared via the Vet or Specialist...or DNA lab. OFA is only providing the information on those IF the breeder/owner choses to make the information public. They can keep it private, even though they have sent everything to OFA.

The one Newf in the country that most people know about or have seen because of his win at Westminster is NOT on OFA. Not a single clearance is listed. And the breeders were named AKC Breeders of the Year at The Eukanuba National Championship in 2006.

Does that mean that the breeders didn't have them done? Or didn't allow them to be published? Or either....or both? Did he pass? Fail? Both? 

So...you can't always depend on OFA for all information. 

I had Molly and Mira's eyes re-certified this past March (for their yearly checkup). I didn't send them to CERF. Last year's results are still there. I keep meaning to.....just haven't done it. They're clear....it's just not published.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> I had Molly and Mira's eyes re-certified this past March (for their yearly checkup). I didn't send them to CERF. Last year's results are still there. I keep meaning to.....just haven't done it. They're clear....it's just not published.



But, do you have 400 "new" clearances still waiting to be sent in? Methinks not. 

As far as OFA goes, you can only depend on the information that is THERE. If the dog isn't listed, it doesn't necessarily mean the dog failed, although you really have to question that possibility.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> The one Newf in the country that most people know about or have seen because of his win at Westminster is NOT on OFA. Not a single clearance is listed. And the breeders were named AKC Breeders of the Year at The Eukanuba National Championship in 2006.


You and I both know that health clearances have diddley to do with that. Breeder of the year, #1 dog, etc. It doesn't mean the dog is healthy. It just means that he is a great *show* dog (and that the owners/co-owners have tons of money, lol). Nothing wrong with either of those things...I LOVE a great *show* dog, and I have absolutely nothing against money!


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Good grief again tonight. I think i like not being on in the evening anymore. LOL


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

TheHooch said:


> Good grief again tonight. I think i like not being on in the evening anymore. LOL


It's been going on all day............ I left and came back 5 hours later and it was still going......:no::no::no::no:


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Well then I guess I like not being on between noon and midnight. LOL


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## Sunny Delight (Mar 10, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> Well then I guess I like not being on between noon and midnight. LOL


It started in the wee hours of the morning on a different thread. I've been learning so many new colorful words today and learning so much about ways I never want to act on-line! It's like a soap opera!


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Yeah I saw two threads last night on the subject. It is like the acne that never goes away just lays under the surface until it is ready to pop up again.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Sunny Delight said:


> It started in the wee hours of the morning on a different thread. I've been learning so many new colorful words today and learning so much about ways I never want to act on-line! It's like a soap opera!


:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> Yeah I saw two threads last night on the subject. It is like the acne that never goes away just lays under the surface until it is ready to pop up again.


And this sounds like the perfect segway for you know who....


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

:yuck::yuck::yuck:


TheHooch said:


> Yeah I saw two threads last night on the subject. It is like the acne that never goes away just lays under the surface until it is ready to pop up again.


:yuck::yuck::yuck: chatting


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Ooooooookay LOL

Hooch


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> You and I both know that health clearances have diddley to do with that. Breeder of the year, #1 dog, etc. It doesn't mean the dog is healthy. It just means that he is a great show dog (and that the owners/co-owners have tons of money, lol). Nothing wrong with either of those things...I LOVE a great show dog, and I have absolutely nothing against money!


Actually, rumor is that he IS healthy.....he's now almost 9. But no clue why he isn't listed on OFA at all!!

Lots of his offspring are.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I remember us having a discussion about that AG back at the time he won.

Hooch


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Actually, rumor is that he IS healthy...


 
yea...we all know how rumors are...:curtain:


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Well......I don't know what his results are, but I do know a lot of people who know his breeders (although who doesn't in the Newf world, LOL), and they have nothing but good to say about them. So........I don't get it. I should ask Cole's breeder. They're friends.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

It would be interestig to hear their take on it. I have always wondered.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

TheHooch said:


> Good grief again tonight. I think i like not being on in the evening anymore. LOL


It actually slows down in the evening....this has been an all day thing...


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I am still glad I am sleeping in. LOL


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I just want to say that the reason many of us don't know the truth if "it bit us," is because we aren't hearing GRM's side of the story. You're ducking questions and flinging accusations.....but not answering honest questions.

Many of the people who are posting these questions want to know the truth, but all they are seeing is Monomer on one end, armed with newspaper articles, lawsuits and judgements, and information like that.

Instead of attacking (which I completely understand.....these threads would make me very defensive as well.....in fact, I commend you for not just walking away).....tell your side of the story. The truth isn't gonna bite any of us if no one is telling it.

Read around the "bashing" posts and see the sincere questions. Give people a chance to understand. Instead of calling someone stupid for asking a question.....tell them your version...


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Whenever I see someone on the all breed boards who have a golden I suggest they check out this forum. I hope none have the past couple of day or they could get discourged and not think this is a nice a plae as i said it was.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I just want to know where the truth is going to bite me?


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

vrocco1 said:


> I just want to know where the truth is going to bite me?



LOL now THAT will lighten up the mood.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

That is what I am hoping for. I also want to know if the truth has big teeth? 

Like are they Golden Retriever teeth, or are they Pit Bull teeth. Inquiring minds want to know.


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

What difference does it make if she sends in clearances or not? Good Grief. Dogs that go into rescue 9 times out of 10 don't come with "papers" or "clearances." Get a rescue dog and you don't know what your gonna get. Except of course, a loving golden needing a forever family.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

gracie's mom said:


> What difference does it make if she sends in clearances or not? Good Grief. Dogs that go into rescue 9 times out of 10 don't come with "papers" or "clearances." Get a rescue dog and you don't know what your gonna get. Except of course, a loving golden needing a forever family.


So true. But hip dysplasia can be very painful to the dog. It can also be very expensive to treat and some folks that can't afford treatment don't keep the dog. The reason we have so many dogs in rescue is because we have so many irresponsible breeders/owners (not directing this at GRM). As a volunteer in rescue, my happy dream (that will never happen) is that people breed responsibly, we put an end to large commercial breeding, and we don't have that overpopulation of unwanted dogs, and of course, that people research the breed of choice, and commit to the dog they purchase or adopt for the rest of it's life. One reason people don't adopt is because of exactly what you just stated above, "you don't know what your gonna get." 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke (bred by an irresponsible breeder that is breeding a genetic eye disease into her dogs..and they are all ending up in rescue, and it is going to be hard to find an adoptive home for this almost blind dog).


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

Phoebe said:


> So true. But hip dysplasia can be very painful to the dog. It can also be very expensive to treat and some folks that can't afford treatment don't keep the dog. The reason we have so many dogs in rescue is because we have so many irresponsible breeders/owners (not directing this at GRM). As a volunteer in rescue, my happy dream (that will never happen) is that people breed responsibly, we put an end to large commercial breeding, and we don't have that overpopulation of unwanted dogs, and of course, that people research the breed of choice, and commit to the dog they purchase or adopt for the rest of it's life. One reason people don't adopt is because of exactly what you just stated above, "you don't know what your gonna get."
> 
> Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke (bred by an irresponsible breeder that is breeding a genetic eye disease into her dogs..and they are all ending up in rescue, and it is going to be hard to find an adoptive home for this almost blind dog).



We do have many irresponsible breeders which is why Rescues exist. That is the reality. But I don't see what good it does to be her judge, jury and executioner. Is she part of the problem? Maybe. But nobody on this forum has the right to string her up by her ankles and slam her. And your right, people don't adopt because they don't know what they will get but maybe if more people adopted it would put the irresponsible breeders out of business. It's a vicious circle which personally I believe anyone who has "bought" a dog is contributing to.


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

I would not cross GRM off my list if I was looking for a puppy. 

She has beautiful dogs who are loving and so typically Golden that I would never want to rule out the possibility of getting one.

As with any purchase, I would make sure the puppy I was buying had all the clearances that were important to me and the breed in general.

Even with all the clearances, there's no guarantee. We had a lot of health issues with our first Golden who had no clearances (BYB) but her health issues WERE NOT related to clearances. Penny has hip clearances but as far as I know, nothing else, and at almost 6 she's perfect.

There are no guarantees when buying a living creature. You hedge your bet with information, not rumor.

I wouldn't hesitate to get a GRM pup if I was sure the documentation was in order and applied to the pup I chose.

My opinion only.


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

Penny'smom said:


> I would not cross GRM off my list if I was looking for a puppy.
> 
> She has beautiful dogs who are loving and so typically Golden that I would never want to rule out the possibility of getting one.
> 
> ...


Well said. You never can get a 100% guarantee. Personally I think the only people who should truly have any say in this thread are those that have never in their entire life, bought a dog. Unless every dog you have ever owned has come from a rescue or a shelter, you are part of the big problem. Like I was telling someone just this morning, if everyone would ONLY get dogs from a rescue or a shelter, all the byb would be out of business in a year. That would leave the professional breeders to do what they do best. I don't know GRM or her breeding facility but I think before everyone types, they better take a good look in the mirror.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Penny'smom said:


> I would not cross GRM off my list if I was looking for a puppy.
> 
> She has beautiful dogs who are loving and so typically Golden that I would never want to rule out the possibility of getting one.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't hesitate to contact Kimberly about a puppy either. If I found (by researching MYSELF) that her clearances and papers were in order and I liked the parents of the litter I wouldn't hesitate for one minute to buy a puppy from her!

For you people who are bashing her why don't you put yourself in her shoes. Wouldn't you be a bit on the defensive if this were you? Right or wrong, Kimberly is going through more right now than any of us probably will in our lifetimes. I can say for sure if this were me I'd be done with this forum in a heartbet. It matters not what we all think - the only thing that matters is the truth and only Kimberly knows that. Heck, only 2 people on this forum have even been to her place and met her! How can we pass judgement on someone we don't even know? If it were my mother and sister dying of cancer I would be at their bedside - not her trying to defend myself!

Jazzys Mom


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

gracie's mom said:


> We do have many irresponsible breeders which is why Rescues exist. That is the reality. But I don't see what good it does to be her judge, jury and executioner. Is she part of the problem? Maybe. But nobody on this forum has the right to string her up by her ankles and slam her. And your right, people don't adopt because they don't know what they will get but maybe if more people adopted it would put the irresponsible breeders out of business. It's a vicious circle which personally I believe anyone who has "bought" a dog is contributing to.


My response isn't about GRM, but if a breeder is producing large amounts of puppies per year, I'd think you'd want to see them exposed. Personally, millers disgust me and if people want to expose them and educate people on what mills are about and perhaps keep people from stupidly purchasing those puppies (calm down GRM..I'm talking millers here), which helps run them out of business...I'm all for it. People also purchase from responsible breeders and I would hate to see a world with no responsible breeding. The reason for those clearances, the reason breeders go back and research the lines, that is for the betterment of the breed. What a mistake it would be to run responsible breeders out of business, all we'd have left if dogs with all kinds of genetic defects. The reason there are so many problems with goldens now is due to over breeding with no concern about genetics because it is such a popular breed...and the overbreeding isn't being done by responsible breeders it is being done by irresponsible breeders. There are times during rescue when I feel more like a free employee to millers. They contact us, we take those mill dogs (after their little bodies have been used to the point where they can't produce for the miller), we pay for all the health issues and find a loving home. It keeps the dogs from getting drowned or shot, but sometimes I do feel like I'm making things easier for the miller. Vicious circle again...I can't stomach not taking a dog, but I wonder how much I contribute to the problem. Same with our shelters...some family says the dog isn't working out in their home, they dump it at a shelter, our rescue takes the dog from the shelter, pays for all medical care and finds a home. How convenient for the irresponsible family.

I don't feel purchasing from a responsible breeder is contributing to the problem. Running responsible breeders out of business so that all we have left is commercial breeders...that is the problem and it is important to do your research so you are not supporting that commercial breeder. And yes, as long as we have dogs needing rescue...I love to see people adopt the special dogs we have in rescue, but I do often wonder if I'm really helping or just making it easier for commercial breeders.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

gracie's mom said:


> What difference does it make if she sends in clearances or not? Good Grief. Dogs that go into rescue 9 times out of 10 don't come with "papers" or "clearances." Get a rescue dog and you don't know what your gonna get. Except of course, a loving golden needing a forever family.


And if the price for a Golden puppy with no proven clearances on its parents is no more than the price of a rescue dog, and the potential buyers understand what clearances are generally done and that they weren't done on their puppy's parents, you're right-hard to argue with that.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

I'm NOT commenting on the ongoing commentary about GRM!!!!! We got Oliver from a very responsible breeder who had clearances done on both sire & dam but we still had some problems with Oliver. Do I blame the breeder - no way!!!!! As a young boy, Oliver developed (didn't come home from the breeder like this) a growth on his back leg. The growth was very much like a pad off his foot but was very rapidly growing. We had the growth removed and we haven't had any further problems with this since. As well, Oliver has gastro problems mainly related to allergies - milk/milk biproducts & dust mites. Oliver does take medication daily and his diet consists of special food but the problem is now controlled. None of our breeder's dogs have any similar problems and she has been "with us" all of the way through the 2 years. I am also positive that these issues are not genetic matters but a "glitch" that sometimes pops up on a rare occasion.

Would I get another puppy from our breeder. You're darned right I would & we brought Nygel home in May 2007 and we have had NO medical issues with him (except for the time he pulled a Houdini, broke into our luggage and ate ALL 39 of Oliver's allergy tablets!!!!!!:yuck

I must note that I have medical insurance on both of my boys as you just don't know what the future might bring!


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

Tahnee GR said:


> And if the price for a Golden puppy with no proven clearances on its parents is no more than the price of a rescue dog, and the potential buyers understand what clearances are generally done and that they weren't done on their puppy's parents, you're right-hard to argue with that.


Exactly. I paid for all my rescues. $150 each, donated to the rescue to cover shots and exams. None of mine have papers or clearances that I know of. They may have at one time of their lives.
I think the breeding needs to be left to the professionals. If people would stop buying dogs or puppies for one year, either from a byb or professional breeder, it would put the byb out of business and the professional breeder could resume their breeding. I understood when I got all my dogs that there would be issues. And not just with what clearances would have picked up on. There are a lot of emotional issues as well. I have a 10 yr old that isn't house broken!! Fun? NO! But I love her and she has a home for life. I've seen a few post on here of people that have gone out and bought a puppy and post stuff about , Puppy Nipping, Puppy Agressive. So clearances do nothing for thier emotional or personality. I know breeders say that they breed for temperment but there is no guarantee when you get right down to it. Just like human kids. You can raise them with all the values and morals in the world but that doesn't mean they don't have the capability of "straying" off track and becoming a totally different person then you raised them to be.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

gracie's mom said:


> What difference does it make if she sends in clearances or not? Good Grief. Dogs that go into rescue 9 times out of 10 don't come with "papers" or "clearances." Get a rescue dog and you don't know what your gonna get. Except of course, a loving golden needing a forever family.


But we're not talking about rescues. We're talking about puppies that people are paying $1,000s for... And many of the websites that GoldRocks advertise on, lists her puppies as AKC, OFA, etc.


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## Rena450 (Apr 16, 2007)

Both of the puppies we lost cost us approx. $800 each. All parents had clearances. One we lost to mecentaric torsion and the other to seizures(which we noticed the day after we brought him home, oh, by the way, a heart murmur was detected on his first vet visit). I didn't feel clearances had anything to do with what happened, but, when you research each one of those, some experts claim that these could have genetic underlying factors. 

mesenteric_torsion

Dr Graves

I know the breeder of Bentley (we had many tests done on his seizures, all inconclusive) did not notify the owners of the siblings and she did, in fact, do a repeat breeding. Now, that is what I call irresponsible . . . . . .after many phone calls, paperwork, vet visits and testing done, we had to put him down. To top it off, we had to wait until she had another litter to get our money back. When I look back at it now, she was in it for the $$$ no doubt. 

Anyway, as my husband would say "it's a crap shoot" when it comes to getting a healthy pup anymore. 

Now we are just keeping out fingers crossed for our Oakley . . . .


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Not to mention that as far as OFA goes, you don't have the clearances until the xrays have been sent in and read, unlike eyes and hearts. With eyes and hearts, the OFA is merely providing a listing and record service so you can have the clearances without having them recorded in the OFA database. With hips and elbows, they are giving the actual clearances themselves. Until that is done, there are no clearances for hips and elbows.
> 
> Most vets actually send the xrays in themselves because it is easier,and you just write out the checks right then and there. And yes, the OFA fee for reading is much much less than the cost of the xrays. I believe I paid close to $350 for xrays for my boy and less than $50 for the OFA fee, anyway, far less than the costs of the xrays.


As regards the OFA, the statement was made that "It takes longer to upload an OFA excellent than it does a "Good"". I knew the answer to this, but did go directly to the OFA to verify this. I received, today:

----- Original Message ----- 
*From:* ofa 
*To:XXX* 
*Sent:* Wednesday, October 24, 2007 2:52 PM
*Subject:* RE: A question


The OFA web site is updated with newly assigned OFA number approximately 7 days after the date of report, no matter what the reading is. Is this what you are asking?

Thank you for you inquiry.

Carol Skinner
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, Inc.
2300 Nifong Blvd.
Columbia, MO 65201
1-573-442-0418 ext 221


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

That would have been what I thought PointGold.


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

RickGibbs said:


> But we're not talking about rescues. We're talking about puppies that people are paying $1,000s for... And many of the websites that GoldRocks advertise on, lists her puppies as AKC, OFA, etc.


Which brings up the old saying you can't believe everything you hear or read in the papers. And why pay thousands of dollars for a dog when all you have to do is wait until March or April when all the "Christmas Puppies" come into rescue because they aren't so cute anymore.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I'd like an explaination as to why this dog, who is OFA listed as dysplastic, was bred:

OFA: Display OFA Records


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Lo and behold some people buy a puppy because they *want* one

I am not contributing to puppy farming because I purchased a fawn and white male SHOW puppy Whippet (acutally two of them, ten years apart). I simply wanted one, so I went to excellent breeders and purchased them. There are but a handful of whippets available to adopt, and only in a few states, and they are snapped up quickly.


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Lo and behold some people buy a puppy because they *want* one
> 
> I am not contributing to puppy farming because I purchased a fawn and white male SHOW puppy Whippet (acutally two of them, ten years apart). I simply wanted one, so I went to excellent breeders and purchased them. There are but a handful of whippets available to adopt, and only in a few states, and they are snapped up quickly.


Yes Whippits, Newfoundlands and other breeds don't come into rescue often. Why? Because they are not overbred and not "popular" breeds. 
I can see buying a puppy from a breed that isn't readily available in Rescue. But a Golden? No way.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I'd like an explaination as to why this dog, who is OFA listed as dysplastic, was bred:
> 
> OFA: Display OFA Records


Cough, Cough, Cough. I won't say anything.


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## jcasks (Oct 14, 2007)

After all this talk of 'rescue puppies' can someone tell me where I can research where they to get one? I am in Indianapolis.


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

jcasks said:


> After all this talk of 'rescue puppies' can someone tell me where I can research where they to get one? I am in Indianapolis.


Google Golden Retriever Rescue Indianapolis. It will bring up the rescues in your area.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

gracie's mom said:


> Yes Whippits, Newfoundlands and other breeds don't come into rescue often. Why? Because they are not overbred and not "popular" breeds.
> I can see buying a puppy from a breed that isn't readily available in Rescue. But a Golden? No way.


Tough issue... I do think it's totally okay to buy one if you want to raise a puppy, or want to show or breed. 

On the other hand, there are plenty in need, if one simply wants an adoring companion.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I'd like an explaination as to why this dog, who is OFA listed as dysplastic, was bred:
> 
> OFA: Display OFA Records


Oh wow. That is very troubling...


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> Cough, Cough, Cough. I won't say anything.


Also, this dog was bred at around the 20 month mark with clearances not done until 41 months and the hips are dysplastic.

OFA: Display OFA Records


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Tough issue... I do think it's totally okay to buy one if you want to raise a puppy, or want to show or breed.
> 
> On the other hand, there are plenty in need, if one simply wants an adoring companion.


I would hate to see good ethical breeders shut down. There is something absolutely wonderful about a well-bred GR. If we can get people to stop the "I want it now" thinking...and encourage them to do their homework and wait for a puppy from someone who truly is bettering the breed, we'd all be better off. 

From my experiences, dogs are not getting surrendered because they're dysplastic. Although we do have a few come in that way. They are surrendered because the owners were incapable of caring for them...and were ignorant as to what it means to be a Golden Retriever. The majority of dog dumpers likely have never heard of HD nor have they taken their dogs to vets often enough to have it picked up.


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## gracie's mom (Aug 6, 2006)

Unless everyone on here is planning on buying one of GRM puppies it's nobody's business. Questions don't need to be answered. It's a free country and she can do what she wants and live with the consequences whatever they may be. She doesn't owe anyone on here anything.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes and no. You share your life with people on a forum, then they may ask questions. She can tell me to go F myself if she wants, or she give an explaination. That's her choice.

Any lover of the breed might question breeding a dysplastic dog. The info is right there on the website, public domain.


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

What a bunch of fine pius people we have here. Kim's mom is dying of cancer, a sister in the hospital and people like MONOMER feel the need to play savior of the world. We aren't talking about a celebrity surrounded by bodyguards and endless supplies of cash, we're talking about an ordinary person going through hell and some of you are just flat out disgusting in your behaviors.

Don't give me any crap about saving the Golden race and other ********, you may love dogs but you sure hate people. You remind me of those old lynchmobs that use justice as an excuse to lash out at people you couldn't stand up to on your own.

And shame on those that did NOTHING. As long as it isn't happening to you then you stay neutral right?

And you Monomer, you can hide behind a keyboard all you want and play Jesus but your REAL persona as a small, insignificant bitter little man shines like a bright beacon on the tallest hill. You wouldn't last 5 seconds in the real world pulling the **** you do on line.

I hope none of you ever find yourselves in a tough spot with a lynchmob on your tail.

Joe, delete my account and my pics. I have NO time in my life for this.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Oh wow. That is very troubling...


So is this Offspring of GoldRock's J Yzerman Schulz


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

gracie's mom said:


> Yes Whippits, Newfoundlands and other breeds don't come into rescue often. Why? Because they are not overbred and not "popular" breeds.
> I can see buying a puppy from a breed that isn't readily available in Rescue. But a Golden? No way.


Not everyone can adopt from a rescue. I was turned down. And even now after having Tinkerbell I still would be turned down. And if caring for Tinkerbell hasn't proven myself as a good owner, I don't know what will.


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Oh wow. That is very troubling...





AquaClaraCanines said:


> So is this Offspring of GoldRock's J Yzerman Schulz


*nods head* indeed it is..the OFA site says the dog is dysplastic, but she has him listed on K9 data as OFA Excellent.. and the dog was bred..
My question for GRM is...
Why does the OFA site say the dog is dysplastic but on K9 data you have the same dog listed as OFA Excellent? I'm just curious to why OFA site and K9 data site say two different things.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

DanielleH said:


> *nods head* indeed it is..the OFA site says the dog is dysplastic, but she has him listed on K9 data as OFA Excellent.. and the dog was bred..


I was taught to always confirm all the information on k9data.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

i do feel bad with her having a sick mother and sister. My prayers are going out to them all. 

I myself had a bad encounter on this very forum during a crisis with my mother last winter. I was called everything under the sun because i couldn't keep a commitment that i deeply wanted because I CHOSE my MOTHER. she had 6 surgeries in 5 days and spent 15 days in ICU and has a terminal illness. You will get no sympathy on this forum when you put family over everything. I was horrified. I thought people would care and show concern but instead i came back to bashing threads about me not keeping a commitment. I am a good daughter and will continue to be one until the day she dies. I will have no shame. 

I am staying neutral thru this situation as i don't know enough about the story to judge anyone and i'm sure there is alot more to be said. She deserves to be heard because she is a member on our forum. If she was a stranger, i wouldn't care. She's been here a while and i'd like to know her side before judging. If she is doing the unthinkable then shame on her, but if not, i'd like to give her a chance.



Ant said:


> What a bunch of fine pius people we have here. Kim's mom is dying of cancer, a sister in the hospital and people like MONOMER feel the need to play savior of the world. We aren't talking about a celebrity surrounded by bodyguards and endless supplies of cash, we're talking about an ordinary person going through hell and some of you are just flat out disgusting in your behaviors.
> 
> Don't give me any crap about saving the Golden race and other ********, you may love dogs but you sure hate people. You remind me of those old lynchmobs that use justice as an excuse to lash out at people you couldn't stand up to on your own.
> 
> ...


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Kimm said:


> I was taught to always confirm all the information on k9data.


Well, k9data is information entered by her, right? I was under the impression a person could lie on k9data....


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Ant said:


> Joe, delete my account and my pics. I have NO time in my life for this.


Of everyone on this forum, you'd have been the last person I would've guessed would leave like this.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

ACC.....isn't k9data entered by us?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes it is....


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Look at the edit history on K9 data. You can see who entered what. Also, be very sure you are looking at the same dog in both places. The names are very similar. You may be looking at two different dogs.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Yes it is....


So a person could lie on k9data....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

A person could lie on K9data if he or she wanted to, or simply didn't have accurate information available when entering data- people can enter dogs that are not their own.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

I entered all the data myself on K9 Data for my dogs. There was no K9 Data police checking up on me. I could have entered anything I wanted. You have to double check everything you find on K9 Data.

Bye Ant!!!

Jazzys Mom


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

Jazzys Mom said:


> I entered all the data myself on K9 Data for my dogs. There was no K9 Data police checking up on me. I could have entered anything I wanted. You have to double check everything you find on K9 Data.
> 
> Bye Ant!!!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


I was just wondering why the OFA site and k9 data said two different things.. and I did check who entered the information.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

As was said, you can put anything you like on K9 Data. That's why the two didn't match

Jazzys Mom


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

The severely dysplastic dog is Pedigree: Goldrock Haus Fedorov Schulz which is a sibling to one dog with excellent hips. Even so, this dog has been bred.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

jcasks said:


> After all this talk of 'rescue puppies' can someone tell me where I can research where they to get one? I am in Indianapolis.


Dr. Shereen Farber is the Midwest Puppy referral person for the GRCA, and can also help you with rescues.

[email protected]

She is in Indianapolis, and has a Canine Rehab center, works closely with the peformance folks as well as Rescue groups in the area.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I had originally posted this under the wrong thread:

ACC listed a page showing an OFA Mild dog was bred. Here is a reference to one that really bothered me:

OFA: Display OFA Records

and from k9data

Offspring of Goldrocks Coffeebean Jitters

And interesting to see the editing that was done by some of the k9data administrators on clearances on two dogs listed in k9data.

Change history for Gold Rocks Buttered Biscuit
Change history for GoldRocks Hooty Heidi

I don't mind high volume breeders as long as their dogs are clean, healthy and happy, and at least the minimal clearances are done. I do have a problem when the clearances are not done. The problem with breeding dogs that a person may think are normal can be seen in the example above, where a dog who was OFA Severe was bred at least twice before clearances were done. They may have thought she was fine.

I am a clearance fanatic, and I admit it. I simply cannot breed until the clearances are done. I once bred a litter where one bitch was an SAS grade 1, and several cousins from the same paternal line were also grade 1. My beautiful boy passed. I neutered him and he went to live with a good friend. It wasn't worth the chance, given what little we do know about SAS.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

gracie's mom said:


> Yes Whippits, Newfoundlands and other breeds don't come into rescue often. Why? Because they are not overbred and not "popular" breeds.
> I can see buying a puppy from a breed that isn't readily available in Rescue. But a Golden? No way.


I bought a Golden from a reputable, well-respected breeder b/c I compete in dog sports and was looking for something VERY specific in a puppy. I wanted the best possible piece of clay I could find to mold into my project. Harder to get just the right clay when you rescue. 

So am I contributing to the dog over-population problem?


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## jcasks (Oct 14, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Dr. Shereen Farber is the Midwest Puppy referral person for the GRCA, and can also help you with rescues.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> She is in Indianapolis, and has a Canine Rehab center, works closely with the peformance folks as well as Rescue groups in the area.




Thank you for this information.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

No, you are not, IMO...

And, I understand some people can or have been banned from K9data for posting false information.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

In my opinon, to say someone shouldn't get a puppy from a responsible breeder is as crazy as saying someone shouldn't get a puppy from a rescue. This is not a decision for outsiders to make.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I bought a Golden from a reputable, well-respected breeder b/c I compete in dog sports and was looking for something VERY specific in a puppy. I wanted the best possible piece of clay I could find to mold into my project. Harder to get just the right clay when you rescue.
> 
> So am I contributing to the dog over-population problem?


Nope, you sure aren't (contributing to the over-population problem). If _everyone_ bought their puppies from reputable breeders, there wouldn't BE an overpopulation problem.

And I totally agree with you about buying from a reputable breeder who EXCELS in the venue you wish to compete in. I adore Marlowe (my GR rescue), but if I had gone out specifically LOOKING for a PERFORMANCE Golden, I would have gone to a _PERFORMANCE BREEDER! 

_I think that rescue is a wonderful, wonderful thing. But I don't feel "superior" just b/c my GR is a rescue dog. There is a reverse snobbery in some of the rescue people (just like there is a reverse snobbery in some of the performance people against conformation, LOL!). I'm not one of them, but it is definitely out there.


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## JimS (Jan 2, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I bought a Golden from a reputable, well-respected breeder b/c I compete in dog sports and was looking for something VERY specific in a puppy. I wanted the best possible piece of clay I could find to mold into my project. Harder to get just the right clay when you rescue.
> 
> So am I contributing to the dog over-population problem?


I get indignant over all of the anti-breeder claptrap too. For some reason those of us who have the need and the means to get our animals from reliable breeders are supposed to be apologetic and assume responsibility for all of the morons out there who's animals end up in shelters. 

If these people had their way, we'd live in a world full of mongrels because there would be no breeders left working towards keeping these wonderful, distinctive breeds moving forward.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

JimS said:


> I get indignant over all of the anti-breeder claptrap too. For some reason those of us who have the need and the means to get our animals from reliable breeders are supposed to be apologetic and assume responsibility for all of the morons out there who's animals end up in shelters.
> 
> If these people had their way, we'd live in a world full of mongrels because there would be no breeders left working towards keeping these wonderful, distinctive breeds moving forward.


I totally agree with that...


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I bought a Golden from a reputable, well-respected breeder b/c I compete in dog sports and was looking for something VERY specific in a puppy. I wanted the best possible piece of clay I could find to mold into my project. Harder to get just the right clay when you rescue.
> 
> So am I contributing to the dog over-population problem?


Absolutely not. The problem isn't people buying dogs from good breeders. Good, reputable breeders are not pumping out large numbers of erratically bred dogs. Good, reputable breeders are going to care where their dogs go and screen their buyers. It's the people who buy a dog on a whim, without thought or care, who eventually tire of the responsibility and dump their dogs...or leave them outside all day until the dogs free themselves and end up strays in shelters. It's that segment of the market that puppy millers cater to.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

JimS said:


> I get indignant over all of the anti-breeder claptrap too. For some reason those of us who have the need and the means to get our animals from reliable breeders are supposed to be apologetic and assume responsibility for all of the morons out there who's animals end up in shelters.


Well, you don't have to apologize to ME. I think EVERYONE should get their dog from a reputable breeder! This is the reverse snobbery I am talking about. It disgusts me. And I think rescue is WONDERFUL, but people should NOT be "shamed" into taking second-hand dogs, rejects, dumped-dogs, etc. And I even have a dumped-dog/rescue!

This will sound terrible, but in my opinion (and you know what they say about opinions), NO ONE should ever be shamed into cleaning up the mess that irresponsible "breeders" create. There are people out there who have a PASSION, and a real calling to do rescue, and this is a WONDERFUL thing. But, there is absolutely NO reason that the "good" homes in this world do NOT deserve the absolute best puppy from a responsible, caring breeder who does health and temperament testing and raises the puppies in an optimum environment.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

JimS said:


> I get indignant over all of the anti-breeder claptrap too. For some reason those of us who have the need and the means to get our animals from reliable breeders are supposed to be apologetic and assume responsibility for all of the morons out there who's animals end up in shelters.
> 
> If these people had their way, we'd live in a world full of mongrels because there would be no breeders left working towards keeping these wonderful, distinctive breeds moving forward.


I am in rescue. I have 8 dogs - none were purchased from breeders. I love them all and will probably always be involved in rescue on some level. That being said, I will *absolutely* purchase a Golden from a breeder in the future. I see some WONDERFUL dogs here on this forum and have learned so much from the good breeders here. I would love to one day have a dog whose lineage I could trace, whose breeding I know was carefully thought out, and whose characteristics were all that a GR's should be (or **** close!) I am a Golden Retriever enthusiast as well as a rescuer. The majority of those I work with are as well.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

My Goldens have come from reputable breeders and I would never apologize for purchasing from a reputable breeder. This is a personal decision that everyone has to make --- breeder or rescue dog. I think the rescue people are absolutely wonderful with hearts as big as Texas. Someday I may have a rescue Golden but for now I am going to a reputable breeder because I want puppies

None of us should have to explain why we got our dogs from a breeder or from a rescue People are different --- what floats my boat probably would make your boat sink!:

Jazzys Mom


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I have dogs from both.... Do I love them any less than the others.. NO..... Would i get one from a breeder again yes... and YES I would get more from a rescue....I can say this tho.... My rescues came to me with NO problems... well ok... I will let you in on Hooties problem....he loves remote controls. Other than his remote habit, I cant say anything bad about them..... Will they have health issues down the road ...maybe....Would that steer me away from rescue NO....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> I have dogs from both.... Do I love them any less than the others.. NO..... Would i get one from a breeder again yes... and YES I would get more from a rescue....I can say this tho.... My rescues came to me with NO problems... well ok... I will let you in on Hooties problem....he loves remote controls. Other than his remote habit, I cant say anything bad about them..... Will they have health issues down the road ...maybe....Would that steer me away from rescue NO....


Oh, well. THAT's easy - Hootie is a boy. If youda gotten a GIRL rescue, she would not be obsessed with remotes. Trying to get her off the phone? That's another thing...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Oh, well. THAT's easy - Hootie is a boy. If youda gotten a GIRL rescue, she would not be obsessed with remotes. Trying to get her off the phone? That's another thing...


Funny you should say girl and phone..... I have one that loves the cordless phone... when it rings she runs around the house with it... if its in her reach.She actually picked it up one day and hit the on button and redial..... It called Dh and all he heard was heavy breathing.... and then a bark then a dial tone. I wasnt home but he call my cell and goes you wont believe this but the dog called me.... you better get home to get that phone before it is in to pieces..:doh::doh::doh::doh:


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> Funny you should say girl and phone..... I have one that loves the cordless phone... when it rings she runs around the house with it... if its in her reach.She actually picked it up one day and hit the on button and redial..... It called Dh and all he heard was heavy breathing.... and then a bark then a dial tone. I wasnt home but he call my cell and goes you wont believe this but the dog called me.... you better get home to get that phone before it is in to pieces..:doh::doh::doh::doh:


LOL!!! That is the funniest and best thing I have heard in ages!!! I LOVE IT!!! :


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> Funny you should say girl and phone..... I have one that loves the cordless phone... when it rings she runs around the house with it... if its in her reach.She actually picked it up one day and hit the on button and redial..... It called Dh and all he heard was heavy breathing.... and then a bark then a dial tone. I wasnt home but he call my cell and goes you wont believe this but the dog called me.... you better get home to get that phone before it is in to pieces..:doh::doh::doh::doh:


See? What'd I tell ya...  Take that phone away, though, and you'll never get in the bathroom...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> See? What'd I tell ya...  Take that phone away, though, and you'll never get in the bathroom...


and the bathroom is another whole story.......


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

LMAO!!!!!!! Now is that Abbie?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> LMAO!!!!!!! Now is that Abbie?


LOL...Jenna ..What makes you think its Abbie..........


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Maggies mom said:


> Funny you should say girl and phone..... I have one that loves the cordless phone... when it rings she runs around the house with it... if its in her reach.She actually picked it up one day and hit the on button and redial..... It called Dh and all he heard was heavy breathing.... and then a bark then a dial tone. I wasnt home but he call my cell and goes you wont believe this but the dog called me.... you better get home to get that phone before it is in to pieces..:doh::doh::doh::doh:


OMG that should be in a book! That's HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## daddysgirl (Feb 27, 2007)

i hope my post will help to stop all this. we all love our Goldens and i come to this forum for help, my Roxy had to have surgery for a luxating digital tendon(not common in a golden) she also has luxating patellas. i was stupid(i take that back) and found her out of a classified ad. my best friend and i went to see the puppys and Roxy pushed all the other puppies aside, she had a purpose. her daddy was going thru chemo and radiation. she has been John's angel since the start. she may have come from bad breeding but she is the best Golden ever


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

daddysgirl said:


> i hope my post will help to stop all this. we all love our Goldens and i come to this forum for help, my Roxy had to have surgery for a luxating digital tendon(not common in a golden) she also has luxating patellas. i was stupid(i take that back) and found her out of a classified ad. my best friend and i went to see the puppys and Roxy pushed all the other puppies aside, she had a purpose. her daddy was going thru chemo and radiation. she has been John's angel since the start. she may have come from bad breeding but she is the best Golden ever


You are both lucky to have found each other. Everything does happen for a reason. Roxy is fortunate to have found you and you had, or made, the resources to provide her with the care she needed. I hope that John is doing well.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Not everyone can adopt from a rescue. I was turned down.


Go to a different rescue. They're NOT all the same, at all.

I was turned down too...by one...then two weeks later brought in two rescue dogs from a different rescue....Adopt A Golden Atlanta. The first one turned me down because I had/have an intact bitch....getting ready to be shown, but had not been in a show "yet". (She has been now........)

Oh and for those who believe Newfs never come into rescue. Oh yes they do. Plenty of them. From auctions especially. Sometimes 20-40 at once (when a breeder/miller closes down). BUT, Newf rescues are SO on top of Newfs out there in shelters, they get them out of there super fast. Few would go to an all breed rescue because they wouldn't last in the system that long.

Why would anybody who wants to hide anything allow OFA to publish the failing "clearances"? You don't have to allow them to be published, you know. There's a box to check if you want them publicized. 

Just an observation.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Why would anybody who wants to hide anything allow OFA to publish the failing "clearances"? You don't have to allow them to be published, you know. There's a box to check if you want them publicized.
> 
> Just an observation.


There you go then!!!

Hooch


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Since I have never been interested in showing or beeeding, "perfect' doesn't matter to me. My last irish Setter was perfect and the mother of a friend of my older son shows dogs and she begged and begged me to let her show Boots (Sir Lancelot's irish pride) but i said no, he was my buddy and i did end up having him fixed. 

None of our goldens have been perfect--Scooter had HD that showed up when he was 4. But dadgum, he did what he was bought for--he was retriving ducks at age 6 months. KayCee has very crooked teeth and had both knees operated on for uxating patella, but she is my buddy, my pal, fixed at about age 8 months (as planned ) Hunter had a missing tooth and was alittle tall, but what a glorius, wonderul boy he was. Buck wa also to tall and to heavy, what a boy he was and how he loved "his dad' And honey is an adopted golden mix, taken from the county pound an hour before she was to e gassed. She ha heartworms when we got her, we gtreated her and today she has no problem at all of any kind--9n fact, chest x-ryas back in July showed heart, lungs and arteries so perfect my vet said they could be used to sho wha a perfect dog chest should look like. So I have dogs from breeders, one from resue and all are special and i would have no qualms abut going either way-==except I am to old to take on a puppy and adopting thrown away seniors is what we want to do in th future.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> There you go then!!!
> 
> Hooch


It wasn't always an option.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> Funny you should say girl and phone..... I have one that loves the cordless phone... when it rings she runs around the house with it... if its in her reach.She actually picked it up one day and hit the on button and redial..... It called Dh and all he heard was heavy breathing.... and then a bark then a dial tone. I wasnt home but he call my cell and goes you wont believe this but the dog called me.... you better get home to get that phone before it is in to pieces..:doh::doh::doh::doh:


Oh my goodness! Get that girl a job! I think a telephone soliciter would be just the job for her! That is way too funny! Can you just picture the look on you DH's face when he realized the dog was calling him?? Hey, Dad, Mom forgot to get milk! pick up some will ya?"

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

hehehe Abbie is just... she looks so clever. I bet it was she, though Maggie is no fool! She looks very intelligent. But Abbie seems more of a girly girl, yet a tom boy at the same time... LOL I love your dogs personalities, they shine through.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Mary, 

We cannot get Shadow to stop changing the channel using our remote. He does this every single night. I think dogs are smarter than us sometimes.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Well, Kimm, you are probably not watching his fav. show! 

Jazzys Mom


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> I had originally posted this under the wrong thread:
> 
> ACC listed a page showing an OFA Mild dog was bred. Here is a reference to one that really bothered me:
> 
> ...


So are the people who own k9 data, and have put years of hard work into making it available to us. They banned the Schulz's from using the site.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Pointgold said:


> So are the people who own k9 data, and have put years of hard work into making it available to us. They banned the Schulz's from using the site.


I have the e-mail...


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I'm sitting here thinking.....I know there are members who feel this whole conversation is cruel and that we should let it go....though I haven't received one PM asking for these threads to be closed.

But I'm remembering recent threads, discussing Comfort Goldens, puppies being sold from the back of vehicles in Walmart parking lots, we complain about BYB and puppy mills all the time.

So why shouldn't we question this? Because of our mutual love of the breed, we should ALL be concerned when we hear stories like this. Poor breeding, breeding without clearances, unhealthy puppies.....all affect the future of our breed. And I think it's our responsibility to be concerned.

If GRM wasn't a member here, I believe that more people would be questioning it. But in my opinion, we have a right and a responsibility to question her. And she has every right to tell us her side of the story.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Rick, wrong thread? GREAT post, but wrong thread... lol


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

OMG I am dumb and SO confused, NEVER MIND!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

HA disregard my PM too, I for SOME stupid reason thought I'd clicked on the temp ban thread, what an idiot I am LOL!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

(I guess I need to have another beer. I obviously can't think yet)


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Poor ACC doesn;t even know where she is she is posting so much. LOL


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

too many beers already ACC?? LOL


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Okay...so it's just going to go on and on and on...

Does anyone know if there is a petition started to be sure Kelsey's killer pays for this crime?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

hehehe sorry guys I could have SWORN on my freakin' LIFE I clicked the GL84 temp ban thread and saw Rick's post there ***???? Somebody HELP me!


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> hehehe sorry guys I could have SWORN on my freakin' LIFE I clicked the GL84 temp ban thread and saw Rick's post there ***???? Somebody HELP me!


LOG OUT!!!!!


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

I find it very ironic that some are championing the subject of this discussion when they have participated in much uglier mud slinging in the past. I suppose when you are the angered, you feel as if the right is yours to do so. 

I am growing very tired of this discussion - but that's me - and I am going to pick and choose what I read and involve myself in further. *All* of you have that *choice*. 

I do want to say this - if you bring your business into a public forum it becomes fodder for discussion. If you are a breeder and you tout your services here, and yes...this is a place for potential buyers...then you must be open to dissection of that service. I don't feel that attacking a person is right, but an outcry against a service or product is not beyond reason.

In the end no matter where you stand on this or any other issue discussed, debated, or dissected here - you always reap what you sow. That goes for all of us.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Nooooooooooooooooo!  ha sorry tho, it happens... and I'm not even blonde... unless you count the dog hair on my clothes


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> I find it very ironic that some are championing the subject of this discussion when they have participated in much uglier mud slinging in the past. I suppose when you are the angered, you feel as if the right is yours to do so.
> 
> I am growing very tired of this discussion - but that's me - and I am going to pick and choose what I read and involve myself in further. *All* of you have that *choice*.
> 
> ...


Lisa you said what I was wanting to post so now I don't have to... thankyou.


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## nrhareiner (Feb 27, 2007)

gracie's mom said:


> Well said. You never can get a 100% guarantee. Personally I think the only people who should truly have any say in this thread are those that have never in their entire life, bought a dog. Unless every dog you have ever owned has come from a rescue or a shelter, you are part of the big problem. Like I was telling someone just this morning, if everyone would ONLY get dogs from a rescue or a shelter, all the byb would be out of business in a year. That would leave the professional breeders to do what they do best. I don't know GRM or her breeding facility but I think before everyone types, they better take a good look in the mirror.


Ok I am not even sure where to start with this. First I find it rediculous that saying b/c you buy a pup you are part of the problem. I feel the problem lies with the people who get an animal then for what ever reason deside not to keep it after a year or so. That is where the problem lies. Not the breeders and not the resposible owners who buy a pup. At this time I have 6 dogs. 4 are rescues or found dogs that showed up. The other 2 are purbred dogs and I show both of them. At some point I will probable breed 1 or both of them.

Now if people only get dogs from a rescue or shelter and you put all the BYB out of bussiness in a year or 2 then answer me this. What will happen to the rescues? They will have not dogs to adopt out to people looking for a dog. SO now what you have all the "Pro Breeders" as you called them. Well I can tell you this from breeding horses for years. Animals from those type of breeders are way out of most people range and most people would not want an animal from that type of breeder. So now what. You have people wanting a pup/dog the recues no longer have any b/c every one 5-7 years ago addopted them all and put all the BYB out of business? So where is the average person going to get a pup/dog?

I personally breed my horses for a very simple reason. There is no way I could afford to by what I breed and a horse from a rescue will not do what I need it to do. Dose that make me a bad person or breeder? No I do not think so. All my animals that I use for breeding are DNA tested and Typed and are proven in the show ring. The same thing will be true if and when I deside to breed my dogs. I am not a professional breeder however I do make good money on the animals I do sell. I am also not a BYB. I consider myself a butique breeder. I breed for a very specifice thing and am rewarded for my efforts. 

So to say that one way is better then the other is not living in the real world or even a perfect world. It is more a falisie.

Heidi


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> (I guess I need to have another beer. I obviously can't think yet)



I don't do beer, but I might join with a glass of wine. Arnold Schwartznagger (sp?) was on tv regarding California fires...he had this white shirt on and I could swear he had Mickey Mouse ears on the front of it. I was thinking how inappropriate, wearing a MM shirt when intoducing the President! Turns out it was the double microphones...looked totally different with Bush in his darker shirt. 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Actually that might be PERFECTLY appropriate LOL

  one way to take things off GRM LOL


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

I am just picturing Arnold with MM ears on his shirt! Too funny! Those fires are still not under control. Those poor people out there! I always said I wanted to live somewhere like Calif. Yesterday DH asked me if I had rather put up with some snow or the fires. I guess Illinois isn't too bad!

Jazzys mom


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Now if people only get dogs from a rescue or shelter and you put all the BYB out of bussiness in a year or 2 then answer me this. What will happen to the rescues? They will have not dogs to adopt out to people looking for a dog. SO now what you have all the "Pro Breeders" as you called them. Well I can tell you this from breeding horses for years. Animals from those type of breeders are way out of most people range and most people would not want an animal from that type of breeder. So now what. You have people wanting a pup/dog the recues no longer have any b/c every one 5-7 years ago addopted them all and put all the BYB out of business? So where is the average person going to get a pup/dog?
> 
> Heidi


This is purely a rhetorical question. This will never happen. Never. Period.

What kind of horses do you breed? I was horsey my entire life, started out in ASBs, got into Arabs, and then Dressage (with some diversions in between each). So, please do tell.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

There's always Florida... lol

No I feel awful for the CA folks. I have friends in San Diego and El Cajon.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

My granddaughter is heavey into horses. She has 3 horses and 1 donkey. Oh, please don't ask me what kind they are - I am sooooo dumb when it comes to horses! 2 brown and 1 black. I know one is 16 hands and the other is 17 hands high. She shows in Western and English, does some jumping and is this year doing dressage. She is 17 and has been in horses since she was 6 or 7.

Jazzys Mom


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## nrhareiner (Feb 27, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> Well, k9data is information entered by her, right? I was under the impression a person could lie on k9data....


 
GOLDROCKS J YZERMAN SCHULZ 

I am not sure where you are all getting that OFA has this dog listed as Displastic. OFA has him listed as Excellent same as what she has on K9 Data.com

Heidi


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> GOLDROCKS J YZERMAN SCHULZ
> 
> I am not sure where you are all getting that OFA has this dog listed as Displastic. OFA has him listed as Excellent same as what she has on K9 Data.com
> 
> Heidi


It was a mistake on my half had clicked on the wrong dog,which is why I was confused to why the two didn't match.. :doh::doh:
it was his sibling that was dysplastic and bred.


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## nrhareiner (Feb 27, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> This is purely a rhetorical question. This will never happen. Never. Period.
> 
> What kind of horses do you breed? I was horsey my entire life, started out in ASBs, got into Arabs, and then Dressage (with some diversions in between each). So, please do tell.


 
Yes I agree it will never happen and I really hope it dose not. As with anything you need to do your homework and I feel that the way AKC keeps records make this very very hard.

As for the horses. I breed NRHA Open leval QH.

Heidi


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey I want to see your Saluki! PLEASE show me a pic?


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

Sit Happens said:


> This is purely a rhetorical question. This will never happen. Never. Period.
> 
> What kind of horses do you breed? I was horsey my entire life, started out in ASBs, got into Arabs, and then Dressage (with some diversions in between each). So, please do tell.


You were into ASBs at one time? My SIL and daughter ride American Saddlebreds (the cost of some of those horses will take your breath away)..in fact we're off to Kentucky this weekend. Not sure what is harder, finding a dog breeder you trust or a horse trainer. Do you train your own horses?

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Actually that might be PERFECTLY appropriate LOL
> 
> one way to take things off GRM LOL


I thought about that when I typed it...was afraid to say it, but I'm glad you did! 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

HA glad I didn't offend you lol


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> As for the horses. I breed NRHA Open leval QH.
> 
> Heidi



Cool! Do you train them yourself? They cost a very pretty penny, too, a good reining horse. Thrilling to watch, too, like a great OB dog...gives me chills.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> You were into ASBs at one time? My SIL and daughter ride American Saddlebreds (the cost of some of those horses will take your breath away)..in fact we're off to Kentucky this weekend. Not sure what is harder, finding a dog breeder you trust or a horse trainer. Do you train your own horses?
> 
> Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


Hi, there. I replied to your post, but it doesn't show up. So if you see a double post, it wasn't intended.

Yes, I started out in ASBs, and my last few horses were ASBs, in fact (aside from my husband's QH that he just "had" to have). I got my first horse when I was in the third grade, a 5 gaited ASB gelding show horse that the owner decided to retire. I did Saddleseat for a while, then got into Arabs (and all the sub-culture that being into Arabs entails, lol), then into Dressage. I have also done stock seat, hunt seat, and side-saddle. 

If you think a nice show ASB is expensive, try pricing the Dressage horses. It's insane.

Yes, I trained my own horses, but like I said, I was mostly into Dressage. I haven't been into horses for a while. They got too expensive and I got tired of always being sweaty and dirty.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> Hi, there. I replied to your post, but it doesn't show up. So if you see a double post, it wasn't intended.
> 
> Yes, I started out in ASBs, and my last few horses were ASBs, in fact (aside from my husband's QH that he just "had" to have). I got my first horse when I was in the third grade, a 5 gaited ASB gelding show horse that the owner decided to retire. I did Saddleseat for a while, then got into Arabs (and all the sub-culture that being into Arabs entails, lol), then into Dressage. I have also done stock seat, hunt seat, and side-saddle.
> 
> ...


Sit, do you know who Garra Walline is? I showed horses forever, and Garra, who is now in TN, is a top dressage competitor and trainer. She was my maid of honor when I got married. I started in Saddleheads  too,with my Mom, who a bazillion years ago was the Captain of the long defunct Detroit Equestrian Team, out of Huntington Woods. Then QH's, did some eventing, then strictly dressage with warmbloods. Gave it up when I had my first son. I think it is the most beautiful collaboration of human and animal. 
I get my fix since Horse Shows By The Bay are up here with Gran Prix jumping, Dressage, and the cute pony hack kids in August for 2 weeks. Awesome.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

Sit Happens said:


> If you think a nice show ASB is expensive, try pricing the Dressage horses. It's insane.
> 
> Yes, I trained my own horses, but like I said, I was mostly into Dressage. I haven't been into horses for a while. They got too expensive and I got tired of always being sweaty and dirty.


Thanks for the heads up on dressage horses...I'll steer clear. There were horses in our previous barn for $250,000 but in the better training barns some of them are going for well over a million, so I can only begin to imagine the money your talking about. I haven't seen much dressage. There was a saddlebred at Shelbyville (KY) Horse Show a year ago this past summer, the name was Harry Callahan, and he did a dressage demonstration. It was certainly fun to watch. 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## nrhareiner (Feb 27, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> Cool! Do you train them yourself? They cost a very pretty penny, too, a good reining horse. Thrilling to watch, too, like a great OB dog...gives me chills.


No since I got sick I do not train or ride much. I have a really good trainer who trains and shows my horses and I am hopping in the next few years I will be feelling good enough to show again. I have a few young friends one shows H/J and is wanting to learn to rein so she wants to show my stallion next summer.

I do train my own dogs and have been showing my Golden in Rally and Obediance. Abby is not even 11 months old and has her CGC and 2/3 her way to her RN. By the time she is a year she should have her RN and I am hopping 2/3 of her CD.

Heidi

Here is Cassie reining.










Here is Cassie kicking some serious rear in her first NRCHA event.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Sit, do you know who Garra Walline is? I showed horses forever, and Garra, who is now in TN, is a top dressage competitor and trainer. She was my maid of honor when I got married. I started in Saddleheads  too,with my Mom, who a bazillion years ago was the Captain of the long defunct Detroit Equestrian Team, out of Huntington Woods. Then QH's, did some eventing, then strictly dressage with warmbloods. Gave it up when I had my first son. I think it is the most beautiful collaboration of human and animal.
> I get my fix since Horse Shows By The Bay are up here with Gran Prix jumping, Dressage, and the cute pony hack kids in August for 2 weeks. Awesome.


Hey, there. No, I'm not familiar with Garra. What part of TN does she live in? It is a very long state, LOL.

I love the little hunter ponies, esp Welshies. I sometimes think about buying some cute ponies to train for H/J for the Pony Clubbers, etc.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Here is Cassie reining.


Sorry to hear you're sick. 

That sliding stop pic is awesome! The great reining horses are amazing to watch! Thanks for sharing!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> Hey, there. No, I'm not familiar with Garra. What part of TN does she live in? It is a very long state, LOL.
> 
> I love the little hunter ponies, esp Welshies. I sometimes think about buying some cute ponies to train for H/J for the Pony Clubbers, etc.


Franklin, TN


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> Thanks for the heads up on dressage horses...I'll steer clear. There were horses in our previous barn for $250,000 but in the better training barns some of them are going for well over a million, so I can only begin to imagine the money your talking about.


OMG...are you serious??!! I mean, yes, the TOP horses of any breed have brought that much, but not *regularly*! The ASB world has certainly persevered through hard times. When I was in Arabs, the Arabs were going for the big bucks, and the top show ASBs couldn't bring diddley, then the market changed, ASBs were hot...and then it bottomed out again. Apparently, they have topped out, yet again! 

I bought a gorgeous daughter of WC Santana's Charm ( x Sultan Santana), back in '98 for $1500 (dirt cheap!). I wish I still had her, she was gorgeous. I sold her with breeding rights (she was a proven broodmare), but the buyers could never get her pregnant. She was liver chestnut with gorgeous big doe eyes, dishey head, and tiny, pretty ears...gorgeous neck set and carriage (knew how to wear her bridle w/o wearing a bridle!), all over very typey, and awesome movement. I just love those Sultan heads.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Franklin, TN



Well, that's not terribly far from me. About 5 to 5-1/2 hours.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

Sit Happens said:


> OMG...are you serious??!! I mean, yes, the TOP horses of any breed have brought that much, but not *regularly*! The ASB world has certainly persevered through hard times. When I was in Arabs, the Arabs were going for the big bucks, and the top show ASBs couldn't bring diddley, then the market changed, ASBs were hot...and then it bottomed out again. Apparently, they have topped out, yet again!
> 
> I bought a gorgeous daughter of WC Santana's Charm ( x Sultan Santana), back in '98 for $1500 (dirt cheap!). I wish I still had her, she was gorgeous. I sold her with breeding rights (she was a proven broodmare), but the buyers could never get her pregnant. She was liver chestnut with gorgeous big doe eyes, dishey head, and tiny, pretty ears...gorgeous neck set and carriage (knew how to wear her bridle w/o wearing a bridle!), all over very typey, and awesome movement. I just love those Sultan heads.


For 20-40 thousand you can get a very competitive horse...but there are so many people with big money in this and they spend a lot of money to kick us poor folk around at Louisville. William Shatner and Carson Kresley are a couple of the celebs, Estee Lauder, Wrigleys...beautiful horses that I could never afford!

My SIL spent a measly $70,000 on a horse....flipped on cement getting show shoes on, hasn't been the same since...there goes $70,000 (and that wasn't considered big money).

I'm editing to add in what a great line you had there, we had a horse in our barn a couple of years ago from the Sultan line, beautiful headset, unfortunately not much motion, but he did well because of that headset. Fifteen hundred won't get you a very competitive horse today, my daughter's horse was nine thousand and it would never be competitive outside of our small state shows (but it is very competitive in our state).

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> :doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:


The very existence of K9 database, a labor of love in the truest sense of the word, as the owners realize no profit or compensation for maintaining it, is a gift to breeders serious about researching pedigrees and genetic influences that will affect their own breeding programs, and ultimately, those who buy their puppies. While the owners make it clear that they are not responsible for the accuracy of the information entered into the database, I know that they are diligent in attempting to keep it correct. Because it is an open database, and individuals can enter and edit the records, this opens it to a lot of error. Careful, dedicated breeders and fanciers have actually done a very good job of maintaining the integrity of the database. We love it, and take seriously the implications of bad information. There have been very few problems, other than a couple of dogs entered incorrectly which caused some sort of "loop", compromising the COI feature. Amy, amazingly enough, was able to pinpoint the entry causing the problem and fix it in a relatively short period of time. The database is an important tool, and one that is very much depended on by the Golden community. Again, as an open database, it is used on what could be equated as an honor system - it is trusted that the entries made are true, and accurate. I know that the records of certain "famous" and heavily used stud dogs have been locked, due to controversies surrounding changes being made and "toes being stepped on". Banning of users is very unusual. Other than that, it is widely believed that the info available on the database can be counted on, and when used in conjunction with OFA, CERF and AKC databases, one should be confident in using it to check information.


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## nrhareiner (Feb 27, 2007)

Great thing about the NRHA is that even people with big money who buy expensive horses will not compet well if they can not ride. Even William Shatner compets but it really does not matter how much he spends on a horse he is not the graeatest rider but at lest he is having fun. Cutting horses prospects will bring about $250K for a long yearling started 2. Same with a good reining prospect.

A finished horse the price will varry depending on what the horse can mark with that leval of rider.

Heidi


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> It was a mistake on my half had clicked on the wrong dog,which is why I was confused to why the two didn't match..it was his sibling that was dysplastic and bred.


And there are many breeders who would question that practice as well. It's not only individual dogs that will throw dysplastic pups.....it's the lineage. Up, down, sideways, back, forth, diagonal. (Just for those who don't already know that) LOL


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> I'm editing to add in what a great line you had there, we had a horse in our barn a couple of years ago from the Sultan line, beautiful headset, unfortunately not much motion, but he did well because of that headset. Fifteen hundred won't get you a very competitive horse today,
> 
> Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


Oh, I didn't buy that horse to be competitive! I bought her because I found her and she was a great deal! She was owned by an older couple who were getting out of ASBs. Too bad I never got anything out of her. She had a lovely dam line, too.

I really can't believe the prices on the ASBs these days. They are ahead of the dressage horses in terms of market prices as far as you are quoting. A "measly" $70K for a show ASB...NO WAY! I'm not calling you a liar...I'm just saying that it boggles my mind!!!


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

Sit Happens said:


> Oh, I didn't buy that horse to be competitive! I bought her because I found her and she was a great deal!


And I meant to say, I bought her as a _broodmare_ prospect. She had already produced a gorgeous 5 gaited Amateur top winning gelding.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Great thing about the NRHA is that even people with big money who buy expensive horses will not compet well if they can not ride. Even William Shatner compets but it really does not matter how much he spends on a horse he is not the graeatest rider but at lest he is having fun. Cutting horses prospects will bring about $250K for a long yearling started 2. Same with a good reining prospect.
> 
> A finished horse the price will varry depending on what the horse can mark with that leval of rider.
> 
> Heidi


Yep, that's the thing about saddleseat. Most of them can NOT ride well. Gawd...when I see some of the show photos, it makes my skin crawl, LOL. Since I started out in saddle seat, I know just how "incorrect" it is -- as a kid, I had to totally re-learn how to ride when I got into the "real" disciplines, lol. 

With a reining horse...well, it is almost like a stock seat version of dressage in a way. Totally different, but lots of the same principles.

Cutting is definitely big money, too.

I admire all of the horsey disciplines, though. Lots of work involved in each.


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## nrhareiner (Feb 27, 2007)

Thing is that not one of those disaplines rate in cost of the running horses. Heck the stud fee on some of the top runing horses are 1/2 mill or more. With NO LFG.

Heidi


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> And there are many breeders who would question that practice as well. It's not only individual dogs that will throw dysplastic pups.....it's the lineage. Up, down, sideways, back, forth, diagonal. (Just for those who don't already know that) LOL


Which is why having as complete knowledge as possible, and using a vertical pedigree, is important. You don't breed two dogs just simply because you happen to have a male and a female. Outcrosses can produce a nightmare of genetic issues, just as can inbreedings. Knowing everything possible, while not a 100% failsafe guarantee, enables breeders to make an educated decision by which to engineer their breedings, producing puppies with a purpose, and an outcome as close as can be to problem-free - decreased incidence of genetic disease. And, consistency. 
Entering information that is accurate and true as possible into a database like k9 is essential to the integrity of the breed. To do any less, or worse, to knowingly enter inaccurate information, has ramifications that might not be seen for generations. Especially if repeating breedings of dogs so young and so frequently as to not see the results of one litter before another is on the ground.


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## Sit Happens (Jul 7, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Thing is that not one of those disaplines rate in cost of the running horses. Heck the stud fee on some of the top runing horses are 1/2 mill or more. With NO LFG.
> 
> Heidi


Do you mean TB or QH? TBs, definitely, but QHs have gotten that high? We're gonna have to start our own horsey thread or people are gonna get pissed, lol.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't know anything about horses... except they are beautiful animals. I have heard some horrible things over the years about the treatment of some show horses. I would love to have a horse some day as a "pet" as I know I could never afford a show one!

I think the most gorgeous horse that EVER live on our planet would have to be this one:


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## jcasks (Oct 14, 2007)

She is a beauty!


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Ok, Jenna, now you have to find out what kind that horse is! Gorgeous horse!

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oh he's an Arabian- isn't he gorgeous? They're my favorite breed


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

He is so perfect he looks like a painting!

Jazzys Mom


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> The very existence of K9 database, a labor of love in the truest sense of the word, as the owners realize no profit or compensation for maintaining it, is a gift to breeders serious about researching pedigrees and genetic influences that will affect their own breeding programs, and ultimately, those who buy their puppies. While the owners make it clear that they are not responsible for the accuracy of the information entered into the database, I know that they are diligent in attempting to keep it correct. Because it is an open database, and individuals can enter and edit the records, this opens it to a lot of error. Careful, dedicated breeders and fanciers have actually done a very good job of maintaining the integrity of the database. We love it, and take seriously the implications of bad information. There have been very few problems, other than a couple of dogs entered incorrectly which caused some sort of "loop", compromising the COI feature. Amy, amazingly enough, was able to pinpoint the entry causing the problem and fix it in a relatively short period of time. The database is an important tool, and one that is very much depended on by the Golden community. Again, as an open database, it is used on what could be equated as an honor system - it is trusted that the entries made are true, and accurate. I know that the records of certain "famous" and heavily used stud dogs have been locked, due to controversies surrounding changes being made and "toes being stepped on". Banning of users is very unusual. Other than that, it is widely believed that the info available on the database can be counted on, and when used in conjunction with OFA, CERF and AKC databases, one should be confident in using it to check information.


Sorry for coming in late but my IP has had some issues lately.

I must agree with PG here. I have been around for over 30 years in Goldens, and I don't how we lived without k9data! It is a wonderful tool and amazingly accurate considering that it is mostly self policed.

Very few people are actually ever banned and when someone is banned, it is for entering false information or something similar. For the Schulz's to be banned, looking at the editing that was done on clearances, I can only guess that it was something similar to that.

I love having such a resource and I think it is time I made another donation to Amy


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I love k9data, but I get dizzy reading it.


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Oh he's an Arabian- isn't he gorgeous? They're my favorite breed


You would have loved my horse JR!! he was purebred arabian.. I'll dig out some pic's of him later


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Kimm said:


> I love k9data, but I get dizzy reading it.


I know! My pedigree program has a feature called hole detector or something and I decided to fill in all holes for 12 generations on several of my dogs :yuck:: It took hours and hours of toggling back and forth between k9data and my program. I had a headache after just a few hours, and I still have some holes to fill in !


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Sorry for coming in late but my IP has had some issues lately.
> 
> I must agree with PG here. I have been around for over 30 years in Goldens, and I don't how we lived without k9data! It is a wonderful tool and amazingly accurate considering that it is mostly self policed.
> 
> ...


I consider myself to be fairly "computer literate", but the amount of work and technological knowlege that it takes to set up and maintain a site like k9 is to me, mind boggling. I am grateful to Amy for her dedication to the site. Those of us who depend on the site as a resource take it very seriously, and because it is, as Tahnee said, "self policed", we feel as responsible for it's integrity as if we owned it ourselves. I love introducing new puppy owners to the site and showing them just how much truly goes into a quality breeding, the research of pedigrees to health clearances, understanding COI's, etc. It helps them to see that the puppy that they have purchased is the result of careful planning and a labor of love for us. When the integrity of the data is compromised, we all take it very seriously, as should anyone looking for accurate information about their dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

In case there are new folks on board who do not know about K9 data base, it can be accessed at:

K9DATA.COM Home Page

It is a database for Golden Retriever pedigrees and is fascinating to explore. I highly recommend it for every Golden Retriever owner, and especially for anyone with issues or concerns re: their own dogs breeding, registration, health clearances, etc.


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## Rose Clager (Apr 23, 2007)

K9Data Query
My rescue Big Bear did come with his pet shop/puppy mill papers. When researching his background I found that his breeder also produces AKC pups, with field and other titles. He is in the Imari lines,along with AM CH Great Gatsby of Gold Rush, CD TD.
My question to breeders and anyone else in the know, is: Do breeders of AKC pups, also breed for pet shops? Do these pet shop pups come from litters that they deem, substandard or want to ship them off rather than sell them with limited regs forAKC?
I am so confused as to why a breeder would also have sold pups to pet shops, and I am talking Lebanon, MO to Boynton Beach, FL. Is this a money thing, or something else?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Reputable breeders of Goldens do not ever sell to pet shops-nope, never, nada. I know of show breeders in other breeds who breed Goldens just to support their other dogs

AKC papers are not an indication of quality, or of quality breeders.

Is the breeder of your rescue boy actually Imari, or just someone who happened to buy an Imari dog? I do not know of Imari, and did not see titles on the dogs in k9data for the most part.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Rose Clager said:


> K9Data Query
> My rescue Big Bear did come with his pet shop/puppy mill papers. When researching his background I found that his breeder also produces AKC pups, with field and other titles. He is in the Imari lines,along with AM CH Great Gatsby of Gold Rush, CD TD.
> My question to breeders and anyone else in the know, is: Do breeders of AKC pups, also breed for pet shops? Do these pet shop pups come from litters that they deem, substandard or want to ship them off rather than sell them with limited regs forAKC?
> I am so confused as to why a breeder would also have sold pups to pet shops, and I am talking Lebanon, MO to Boynton Beach, FL. Is this a money thing, or something else?


Rose, excellent question. It is the bane of the existance of reputable breeders that dogs of their breeding appear in the pedigrees of BYB's, millers, HVB's, and pet stores. Now, with the advent of the Limited Registration, this is less likely to happen. 
Reputable breeders enequivocably do NOT breed for pet stores or brokers. What does happen is a dog is sold as a pet, and bred. Then, offspring of that dog are bred, and so on. So, if you go back far enough in pretty much any dog's pedigree, you will find "famous" and influential dogs, and AKC champions. Many BYB's and HVB's will state that their foundation lines are (fill in the blank with any well known kennel name) but unless a dog was purchased DIRECTLY from one of those kennels with the understanding that it was for breeding, that is not a true statement. Spay/neuter contracts are historically difficult to enforce, but the AKC's LTD registration has been a boon for breeders. You will often see in newspaper ads and internet puppy sales sites, "CHAMPION BLOODLINES". Again, go back far enough, and nearly every purebred dog will have a champion in its' pedigree. It is not until sire and dam are champions, or at the VERY least, grandsire and granddam, can that statement be considered worth much. But, unknowing buyers are impressed by it. 
The GRCA Code of Ethics GRCA Code Of Ethics expessly forbids 
selling dogs to brokers and pet stores.

Hope this helps.


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## Rose Clager (Apr 23, 2007)

Thank you for your reply. One can do hours of research and not get the info you have provided to me.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Even with the advent of limited registrations there are still puppies that are bred irrationally. As you said a limited registration is wonderful and a step in the right direction but very hard to enforce. There are people who have purchased on a ltd. registration, bred their female and sold the puppies for pet price without papers

Jazzys Mom


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Jazzys Mom said:


> Even with the advent of limited registrations there are still puppies that are bred irrationally. As you said a limited registration is wonderful and a step in the right direction but very hard to enforce. There are people who have purchased on a ltd. registration, bred their female and sold the puppies for pet price without papers
> 
> Jazzys Mom


Yup-or go to one of the other registries that have sprung up, and register your dog often with no more proof than a picture. That is why it is so important to those of us who breed that we thoroughly screen put puppy buyers.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Do NOT buy into the "CKC" - and I do not mean the REAL CKC, which is the Canadian Kennel Club, but the Continental Kennel Club. Registering mixed breeds, and purebreds based solely on a picture or three, this "club" is one of many that have popped up on the internet and really does nothing more than take your money. I cannot imagine what the Canadian Kennel Club thinks of this.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

You and Linda are getting to points that really gripe me now. i better get out of this thread now. LOL


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just know that we love ya, Hooch. Non-judgementally. :smooch: 
(even if you are wrong - HA HA HA ! just kidding.)


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Oh noooooo if I am wrong so are you and Linda I am agreeing with ya.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Whew. I was just trying to cover my bases. I KNEW you were a genius and that great minds think alike!!! So, since you agree with me and Tahnee, RANT AWAY, BIG GUY!!!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

TheHooch said:


> Oh noooooo if I am wrong so are you and Linda I am agreeing with ya.



You go, Hooch! :rockon:


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I jus tcan;t get started on CKC and pictures and the like and I just go bonkers.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Maggies mom said:


> Funny you should say girl and phone..... I have one that loves the cordless phone... when it rings she runs around the house with it... if its in her reach.She actually picked it up one day and hit the on button and redial..... It called Dh and all he heard was heavy breathing.... and then a bark then a dial tone. I wasnt home but he call my cell and goes you wont believe this but the dog called me.... you better get home to get that phone before it is in to pieces..:doh::doh::doh::doh:


That is a very funny story! 
I was trying to get in touch with a well known breeder in the New England area once and I had to leave a message but there wasn't the usual "leave your message after the beep"...instead it was a cat meowing. When I finally did get a chance to talk to the breeder she said that her cat re-sets the message on a regular basis.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> I jus tcan;t get started on CKC and pictures and the like and I just go bonkers.


I hear ya. I believe in the integrity of the Stud Books of the AKC, REAL CKC, and UKC (also The Kennel Club - England). The internet, which I have a true Love-Hate relationship with, has made it very easy for anyone to hang a shingle and tout themselves as legitimate whatevers...

I think I need to go feed the hungry Eyetalian and take a deep breath...


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

If Uncle Guido comes by for a bite tell him I said hello


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> If Uncle Guido comes by for a bite tell him I said hello


 Ya brown noser, you...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> I jus tcan;t get started on CKC and pictures and the like and I just go bonkers.


Breathe in, and breathe out... Breathe in, and breathe out...
Now, Hooch dear, please do tell us what you think about the (fake) CKC and other "internet registries". I'd sure appreciate your opinion. I can get on a soapbox quickly and easily, but there are those who believe that I have some sort of "agenda". While I have had concerns and not agreed with everything the AKC has done, and darn well know that AKC papers do NOT mean quality, I do believe in the integrity of the Stud Books, and appreciate the AKC sanctioned events and their promotion of responsible pet ownership. I think many folks might appreciate hearing your thoughts. HOWEVER, if it will affect your health, don't!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree, though I think there is a place for alternative registries, it should NOT be to promote puppy farms.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Ya brown noser, you...


I goota stay in good with him. With my sense of dishumor I never know when I am going to get myself in trouble.

And the fake CKC burns me up. Just send in a picture of something that looks like a Golden and some other information you can find laying around the interent and then sell CKC pups for 150 dollars and tell people the AKC is nothing. I hate it hate it hate. 

Hooch <----get back in my neck you old vein


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> I goota stay in good with him. With my sense of dishumor I never know when I am going to get myself in trouble.
> 
> And the fake CKC burns me up. Just send in a picture of something that looks like a Golden and some other information you can find laying around the interent and then sell CKC pups for 150 dollars and tell people the AKC is nothing. I hate it hate it hate.
> 
> Hooch <----get back in my neck you old vein


"And tell people the AKC is nothing." That's the kicker for me, considering that many of them used to be able to register with AKC but lost privledges, or, have mixed breed or poor quality dogs that were never registered with any registry and the (fake) CKC welcomes them with open arms (read that happy and eager to take their money and send them a certificate that pretty much anyone could print up on a computer. Their descriptions of the breeds (I hesitate to call them breed standards) are pretty funny. Again, I've not always agreed with AKC policy, but they, and the real CKC, and UKC, are the only registries that I put stock in.
Doodles, and Puggles and other overpriced mutts being "registered" by the likes of the fake CKC really gets me.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> "And tell people the AKC is nothing." That's the kicker for me, considering that many of them used to be able to register with AKC but lost privledges, or, have mixed breed or poor quality dogs that were never registered with any registry and the (fake) CKC welcomes them with open arms (read that happy and eager to take their money and send them a certificate that pretty much anyone could print up on a computer. Their descriptions of the breeds (I hesitate to call them breed standards) are pretty funny. Again, I've not always agreed with AKC policy, but they, and the real CKC, and UKC, are the only registries that I put stock in.
> Doodles, and Puggles and other overpriced mutts being "registered" by the likes of the fake CKC really gets me.


There you go nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ivrygld (Oct 22, 2005)

*Does anyone ever check the "ripoff report"*

http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchresults.asp?q5=golden%20retrievers&q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search%21&Search=Search

According to the poster "GoldRocks Goldens" This breeder has been suspended by the AKC on May 7, 2007 for 10 years and fined $2000. The same with her husband.


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

Oh, please. Do we have to rake this whole thing up again?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I think this whole thing with GRM will be around here for quite awhile. It affected alot of people, and still is. I'm okay with it being brought up again, from time to time. It's an important lesson for all of us. 

Ivrygld, yes -- many of us here did know that.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yup, agreed, just last week we found out another GRM puppy was sold for a lot of money with no papers and is dysplastic at 6 months of age.


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

well to my way of thinking just the answers of asterisks and waveys shows he intelligents levels we are talking about and im only one page three


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

yeah all the posts were deleted by her once she realized we were onto her! She replaced them with smilies...


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

All my posts already have smiles in them. No point in going back to edit them.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> All my posts already have smiles in them. No point in going back to edit them.


Plus you got Jess-man smiling as well. He loves the show ring.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

I think Jesse is gorgeous!! :smooch:


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

gold'nchocolate said:


> I think Jesse is gorgeous!! :smooch:


Thanks. Old Jess-man played in the mud today. He just had a bath last week. He *was *smelling so good until he did that.


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## Ivrygld (Oct 22, 2005)

*My apologies*

I wasn't attempting to rake up the issue, I was merely pointing out that AKC had suspended this breeder according to the poster. Rules and regulations are made to be followed as well as ethical breeding practices. The Golden Retriever Club of America, sets guidelines which reputable breeders should follow. Those who don't must pay the consequences. Simple as that.

Didn't mean to drag anything up, if the forum already knew. I didn't see it listed in the postings. Hey I'm getting old here...and the sight is first to fade. <grin>


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

No problem!!


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Ivrygld said:


> I wasn't attempting to rake up the issue, I was merely pointing out that AKC had suspended this breeder according to the poster. Rules and regulations are made to be followed as well as ethical breeding practices. The Golden Retriever Club of America, sets guidelines which reputable breeders should follow. Those who don't must pay the consequences. Simple as that.
> 
> Didn't mean to drag anything up, if the forum already knew. I didn't see it listed in the postings. Hey I'm getting old here...and the sight is first to fade. <grin>


Most of us don't blame you.... In fact, I believe it was other members here who suggested to another member who was having issues with GRM to report it on RipoffReport.

Threads like this are important, because anyone researching before buying a puppy will come across this thread when searching on Google and Yahoo. People need to know BEFORE they buy from her...


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