# More protein, moderate fat for weight loss (?)



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

So, my parent's golden Bea is overweight. Thyroid has been tests 2x now, her results are in the normal range (not low normal). Beezus has slowly been gaining weight for the last year despite being on a reduced calorie food. She does not get table food and only gets 1 treat if any per day. My mom has cut back her kibble with discouraging results-- minimal weight loss. 

*What do you feed when low cal foods don't work?*

In my search, I found this article which talks about how reduced calorie foods are full of carbohydrates and fiber to make the dog feel full. Both the author and my mom's vet recommends a higher protein, moderate fat food for weight loss. What constitutes high and TOO HIGH?

* Is EVO too much of an extreme for Bea?* With winter coming, she won't be getting as many 1-2 mile walks everyday. I'd like to jumpstart her diet-- maybe supplementing with green beans. EVO is very high in protein (in the 42-52's) vs. Innova (mid 20's), TOTW (25-32%), Blue Buffalo, or Canidae (20-30's).

Secondly, how much to feed of these higher kcal, protein foods?

EVO Red Meat: 527 kcal, 42% P, 22% F
EVO Wt. Mgmt: 458 kcal, 52% P, 15 % F
Innova Lrg. Bite: 504 kcal, 25%, 14% F
Innova Low Cal: 374 kcal, 18% P, 14% F 
Orijen Fish: 480 kcal, 38% P, 18% F
Acana Grasslands: 430 kcal, 32% P, 18% F
TOTW Prarie: 370 kcal, 32% P, 18 % F


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I can tell you that my golden kooper, that will be 8yrs. old, next feb. was eating 2 cups a day of fromm surf and turf, as my lab, that is almost the same age, kopper is not a active boy, we go on walks, but as far as play, no, he put on weight, my lab., has not put on ,weight, so , kooper is on the other flavors of fromm.


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

I don't really have an answer for you but I was wondering why the royal canin lab formula is higher in protein than the golden retreiver formula and found out that because labs are prone to being overweight they used a formula that is higher in protein and lower in fat but it is also still lower in calories - based on that it kind of makes sense to me that a higher protein/lower fat diet might work better for weight loss. But the lower calorie food also makes sense to me so that they can still feel full - but that can also be achieved by adding something like green beans, which you mentioned. But I'd be weary of switching to something that has way way more calories since you would have to feed so little of it (but that's just my opinion). 

But my friend's very overweight golden has been losing weight consistently with a food that has a lower protein percentage. But he does have thyroid issues so maybe that makes a difference? I don't know!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Just got off the phone with the people at Natura (EVO). The woman was pretty helpful and really explained WHY the high protein and moderate fats help with weight loss. She also said that Bea's maintenance feeding would be 3.75 cups a day but for weightloss should get 3 cups. The higher protein is excreted through the kidneys and not stored as fat. It makes sense to me, like you said ArtfulDodger, but I also can understand less kcal/cup= skinnier dog.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Just got off the phone with the people at Natura (EVO). The woman was pretty helpful and really explained WHY the high protein and moderate fats help with weight loss. She also said that Bea's maintenance feeding would be 3.75 cups a day but for weightloss should get 3 cups. The higher protein is excreted through the kidneys and not stored as fat. It makes sense to me, like you said ArtfulDodger, but I also can understand less kcal/cup= skinnier dog.


While I've found the 30-34% protein range ideal for my dogs (Bentley at almost 10 yrs. and my 3 yr old lab), I'd be very hesitant to feed the EVO Weight Management kibble at 52% protein, 15% fat and 458 kcal/cup. While the kidneys may excrete the extra protein, I would think that would put quite an extra work load on them. It's the only kibble I'm aware of with that hight of protein.

Bentley tends to put on weight easily, but he has more lean muscle mass and better body tone eating kibbles with the 30-34% protein and 16-19% fat ranges than when he ate low protein foods. He eats 2 1/2 cups of Fromm's Surf & Turf daily with 30% protein,19% fat and 410 kcal/cup and has no trouble staying at a good weight.

There are a number of kibbles out there with protein in the low 30s and moderate fat. Maybe trying one of those would be a good start.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I feed Taste of the Wild, perhaps I'll have them try TOTW Bison or Fowl with 32% protein. If it doesn't work or she doesn't like it, I could just use it. I'm also considering Innova Large Bite Adult, Acana/Orijen or Wellness. It has to be something that my mom can pick up locally at the feed stores. She won't order online.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Any other thoughts from anyone else?

How high is too high? Would a regular EVO formula be OK?


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## unclelar (Oct 10, 2009)

I went through this about a year ago with my two. They were pretending to be pot bellied pigs. I came to a conclusion that looking at percentages is not always the best answer. The percentage of protein translates to an actual grams of protein in a given food. Not all foods weigh the same due to moisture content and processing how much air is in the nugget, nor is the amount of food the same in an 8oz cup due to the shape of the nuggets. The body will use a certain number of grams of protein over a day and most excess protein would then be excreted through the kidneys. I actually created a spread sheet that looked at several foods and the actual weight per cup so I could see the actual amount of protein I was feeding.
I ended up feeding Wellness Core Low Fat that is:350 calories 33% protein, max 10% fat. 
We did use green beans as a filler to help add volume to the meal. I really felt this was better than saw dust which is in some foods.
The results for mine was Buddy weighed 94 now weighs 75 and is perfect weight
Lady was 94 weighs 71 and could use a couple of more pounds off.
Their coats are great, energy level is up.

It finally breaks down to calories in and calories burned for weight loss. The quality of the protein, fat, and carbohydrates is important to the overall health of the dog.


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## unclelar (Oct 10, 2009)

To your question about EVO Red Meat: 527 kcal, 42% P, 22% F

With this ratio, I would estimate that Bea would be receiving 68.5 grams of protein per cup (527 x 42% = 274 calories of protein using the 1 gram of protein = 4calories 274/4 = 68.5 roughly). Not knowing he optimum weight but guessing around 75lbs and for weight loss I use (it has been stated in other threads) 10 calories per lb of weight or 750 calories she would be getting only 1 1/2 cups per day which would translate to about 97.5 grams of protein per day and if it were my two starving.
I had read once what the protein requirements were and don't remember but it would seem that would be a little high for a less active dog. 

I did read the article and it seems he believes the low carb diet is best (last paragraph) which will reduce weight. 

My personal choice is a little higher protein (4 calories per gram), a little lower fat (9 calories per gram), and moderate non grain carbs (4 calories per gram) with appropriate fiber (definitely not saw dust) and exercise will result in the same weight loss. (I have chosen no grain, others do just as well with grain).


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Just got off the phone with the people at Natura (EVO). The woman was pretty helpful and really explained WHY the high protein and moderate fats help with weight loss. She also said that Bea's maintenance feeding would be 3.75 cups a day but for weightloss should get 3 cups. The higher protein is excreted through the kidneys and not stored as fat. It makes sense to me, like you said ArtfulDodger, but I also can understand less kcal/cup= skinnier dog.


That's a LOT of food, especially for a higher calorie food. Al three of my dogs are moderately active and range in age from 4 years old to 10 years old. Danny is my highest energy guy and the most active. He gets 2 1/4- 2 1/2 cups a day of CA Natural Chicken Meal and Rice. It's 511 calories a cup. Jasper is my smallest dog at 59 lbs and moderately active, he gets 1 1/2- 1 3/4 cups a day. The old girl is pretty active and she gets 2 cups a day.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

All 3 of mine would look like kegs on legs if they got that much food/calories in a day....




CarolinaCasey said:


> Just got off the phone with the people at Natura (EVO). The woman was pretty helpful and really explained WHY the high protein and moderate fats help with weight loss. She also said that Bea's maintenance feeding would be 3.75 cups a day but for weightloss should get 3 cups. The higher protein is excreted through the kidneys and not stored as fat. It makes sense to me, like you said ArtfulDodger, but I also can understand less kcal/cup= skinnier dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

protein requirement is 1 gram per pound of body weight (optimum) per day




unclelar said:


> To your question about EVO Red Meat: 527 kcal, 42% P, 22% F
> 
> With this ratio, I would estimate that Bea would be receiving 68.5 grams of protein per cup (527 x 42% = 274 calories of protein using the 1 gram of protein = 4calories 274/4 = 68.5 roughly). Not knowing he optimum weight but guessing around 75lbs and for weight loss I use (it has been stated in other threads) 10 calories per lb of weight or 750 calories she would be getting only 1 1/2 cups per day which would translate to about 97.5 grams of protein per day and if it were my two starving.
> I had read once what the protein requirements were and don't remember but it would seem that would be a little high for a less active dog.
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

another helpful little tidbit....

resting energy requirements to maintain (not lose) weight

pounds body weight// kcal/day
65 //886
70 //937
75 //987
80 //1036
85 //1084
(source, Royal Canin veterinary guide)

I think if you look at the kcal/cup of what she's eating, it becomes quickly apparent why she's not losing any weight.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

My Tinkerbell gets very little excercise to none. She needed to lose weight and she did and is maintaining. She went from 80 pounds to 65 We fed her 2 cups a day of Wellness Core reduced fat to lose it and now she's on Acana grasslands and still gets 2 cups a day. We do add some veggies at times to add bulk to her meals. But she is satisfied.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> another helpful little tidbit....
> 
> resting energy requirements to maintain (not lose) weight
> 
> ...


Good to know, Barb. I'm just frustrated with all of the options out there. I'm not sure where to go from here. She's actually consuming before we cut her back, 3 cups per day at 912 kcal/day. That's less than your chart... and she's not losing any weight.

For the time being, we've decided to switch her to TOTW Fowl formula. My mom should begin transitioning her next week. She will be getting about 2.5 cups per day at 937 kcal/day on a more quality food. Pure math tells me we need to cut back a little more to get the desired weight loss. We will see how she does. I might look into the Wellness.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Tinkerbell has lost weight while on Acana and its cheaper than the Wellness was.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Keep in mind that the weight given is what they SHOULD weigh, since fat doesn't metabolize calories.
Also, remember it takes 3500 calories to lose one pound. So if she's getting 100 calories a day less than she needs, it will take 1 month to lose 1 pound.
Yes, it's very frustrating. There seem to be some dogs that just have the worst time losing weight, just like some people.




CarolinaCasey said:


> Good to know, Barb. I'm just frustrated with all of the options out there. I'm not sure where to go from here. She's actually consuming before we cut her back, 3 cups per day at 912 kcal/day. That's less than your chart... and she's not losing any weight.
> 
> For the time being, we've decided to switch her to TOTW Fowl formula. My mom should begin transitioning her next week. She will be getting about 2.5 cups per day at 937 kcal/day on a more quality food. Pure math tells me we need to cut back a little more to get the desired weight loss. We will see how she does. I might look into the Wellness.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

also, it's better to weigh the food on a diet scale rather than measure with a cup. Measuring with a cup leaves a lot of room for error.


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## unclelar (Oct 10, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> also, it's better to weigh the food on a diet scale rather than measure with a cup. Measuring with a cup leaves a lot of room for error.


Thanks for all your input. I couldn't remember the protein per pound. We did weigh the food for a while we have slipped and went back to a standard cup and always feel that isn't enough so we put a few more kibbles in. 

Another item we forgot was rawhide has calories. While we only gave them once and a while it was 128 calories and we didn't reduce in food so it would slow or stop the weight loss.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The rawhide is well worth mentioning, I've also had several customers here at the pet hotel not aware that the dental chews are LOADED with calories and not figure them into their daily amount of intake. For example, a pedigree dentastix (size regular) has 70 calories. A dentabone (size medium) has 188, while a large has 300. A jumbone (size small) has 270 and the size large has a whopping 624! Here's the chart for greenies:
Teenieapproximately 25 calories Petiteapproximately 54 calories per treatRegularapproximately 90 calories per treatLargeapproximately 144 calories per treatJumbo approximately 270 calories per treat



unclelar said:


> Thanks for all your input. I couldn't remember the protein per pound. We did weigh the food for a while we have slipped and went back to a standard cup and always feel that isn't enough so we put a few more kibbles in.
> 
> Another item we forgot was rawhide has calories. While we only gave them once and a while it was 128 calories and we didn't reduce in food so it would slow or stop the weight loss.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Oh my god, that lady said 3 cups of EVO a day to LOSE weight?? She must have been drunk. Ranger was on EVO red meat when he was super active last spring and i was feeding too much Orijen to keep weight on him - it was blowing my budget. I switched to EVO and at 2.5 cups a day, Ranger got FAT. I dropped him to 2 cups a day, less when he had a stuffed kong, and he maintained his weight. We were out walking 3-6 miles a day and going on day long hikes on the weekends. Not to mention he was playing for 4-5 hours a day with his buddy. He had all that exercise and more than 2 cups a day of EVO would cause him to gain weight. 

When I injured myself and Ranger was down to only 1-2 walks a week, 2 cups of EVO made him fat. Anything LESS than that, and he thought he was starving and turned into a real chowhound. Acana Light and Fit didn't cut it for him - while he did lose weight on it and was able to eat 3 cups a day with no exercise and still stay slim - he couldn't handle the grains. I was about to switch him to Wellness Core Low Fat; it's grain-free, high protein, and low in calories. I was looking more at calories and protein when Ranger needed to lose weight. I kept him to 700 cals a day (since his ideal weight is 70 lbs) so the lower the calories, the more he could eat and not feel like he was starving. So on the Wellness Core Low Fat, he could have had almost 2.5 cups a day but the EVO would mean under 2 cups...and anything under 2 cups wasn't going to happen for him. 

Personally, from my experience with EVO, I wouldn't recommend it for a dog trying to lose weight. It is a GREAT food and if I hadn't hurt myself, Ranger would still be on it and not eating raw at this point, but crap happened. Stick to something lower calorie and she'll lose weight. Anything high calorie and she'll gain - it's just like with people. From all the reading and researching I did, I was about to swap to Wellness Core Low Fat for Ranger but ended up making the switch to raw instead. Definitely try the Wellness Core Low Fat if you're looking for something grain-free and to help lose weight.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Good to know, Barb. I'm just frustrated with all of the options out there. I'm not sure where to go from here. She's actually consuming before we cut her back, 3 cups per day at 912 kcal/day. That's less than your chart... and she's not losing any weight.
> 
> For the time being, we've decided to switch her to TOTW Fowl formula. My mom should begin transitioning her next week. She will be getting about 2.5 cups per day at 937 kcal/day on a more quality food. Pure math tells me we need to cut back a little more to get the desired weight loss. We will see how she does. I might look into the Wellness.


FWIW, Wellness Core Reduced Fat seems to be the most effective grain free food at taking pounds off dogs as well as maintaining a healthy weight in "girth" challenged canines. Even if you opt for TOTW, feeding 937 kcal/day with the 18% fat in the TOTW formula is unlikely to lead to any substantial weight loss in a low activity, aging golden (try keeping it to no more than 2 cups a day).

p.s. Has a workup been done on the dog to ensure no other non-thyroid condition is responsible for the weight gain?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Garfield said:


> FWIW, Wellness Core Reduced Fat seems to be the most effective grain free food at taking pounds off dogs as well as maintaining a healthy weight in "girth" challenged canines. Even if you opt for TOTW, feeding 937 kcal/day with the 18% fat in the TOTW formula is unlikely to lead to any substantial weight loss in a low activity, aging golden (try keeping it to no more than 2 cups a day).
> 
> *p.s. Has a workup been done on the dog to ensure no other non-thyroid condition is responsible for the weight gain?*


Yes, twice. I was convinced the first panel was wrong!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

We, too, had great success with the reduced fat Wellness Core with the girls. I used the 10 cals per pound they SHOULD weigh and the weight came off in a controlled, gradual way. That was several years ago. Just recently, we went back to the regular Wellness CORE and they are doing super on it too.


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