# Large Litter Help Requested



## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Hi to everyone,

I'm a newbie from Ireland and need some help.

Our beautiful Golden "Shadow" had her (and our) first litter of pups on Friday, she had thirteen in all with ten survivors, sadly three didn't survive despite her best efforts.

We did have the Vet attend to guide us and help her through the second stage of her whelping, he has attended each day since to ensure Mom is OK and give her antibiotics by injection, we are not wealthy but our two retrievers are not just dogs they are family (our three children are grown up).

To the point:

One of the pups was born very small, so we used a hot water bottle and a product called Lactol he responded but still hasn't taken to feeding from Mom, another appeared to be Ok in fact we didn't see anything wrong with him until my wife found him very cold so with the help of a hot water bottle and some foil wrap she got the temperature back up and gave him a feed of Lactol.

The smallest we call Tiny now weighs in at about 9 ounces, to put this in context the big brothers average 19 ounces, Mini is about 12 ounces.

Some would say allow nature take its course with the small ones (they may be right) but we want to give them and Mom every chance.

Tiny is gaining some weight but very slow, he is not on Mom's teat we are feeding him about ten to fifteen ml of Lactol which is about all he will take at each feed (6 per day).

Mini is a very noisy pup and can take up to 20 ml of Lactol, he is strong but very vocal in fact so bad it is annoying to Mom and us.

The Vet is more concerned with Shadow's health and we respect that after all what can he be expected to do with tiny pups except recommend the feed Lactol.

We are not raising these pups for profit, so any advice would be appreciated.

Regards,

Andy.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I wish you the best of luck with these pups. Hopefully, you'll get some help here.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have no specific advice and am sorry you are going through this. 

I will say my breeders give the small ones every chance and I know of several who have turned around and not only thrived but have caught up with their siblings so please follow your instincts.

Heating pads or heat lamps can also be helpful to help keep the pups warm.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Thank you for getting back to me.

Nature decided Tiny was not to have his next feed, Mom did her best to bring him around strange thing is I think she was apologizing to me with the way she looked up at me.

Mini did take almost 40 ml of food and is as noisy as ever but very active.

Fingers crossed he will fight on.

Once again Thank you.

Regards,

Andy.

If anyone would like to see Shadow's placid nature Click Here for a video on you tube where she allows hens to share her bone, the lighter moments are the ones that help us in the sad times.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

so sorry that Tiny did not made it --- fly softly sweet one.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

If you can get it, puppy Nutrical on the tongue can give a burst of energy to nurse. Even a tiny bit of sugar water sparks that lifeforce to get some nutrition. Amazon.com : Nutri-Cal for Puppy High-Calorie Nutritional Supplement, 4.25-Ounce : Puppy Vitamins : Pet Supplies


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I want to add how sorry I am. I have been there and it is just awful to lose babies.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Sorry to hear of your loss. If a puppy is too weak to nurse, then you need to tube feed it. Nutrical and sugar water are not substitutes for good nutrition.... Four years ago, I had a litter of ten. The smallest one was six ounces at birth.. Fortunately by working with nursing stations, I always put the smallest pups on the easiest/most full nipples, they all survived. And at weaning that pup was one of the bigger pups. My guideline, I got from a whelping book is that pups should gain 10% of their body weight per day. In 2007, I had a pup that did not gain weight thru the day. My husband looked at me and said,"are you going to watch that puppy die?" Fortunately, he is adept at tube feeding, it took two feedings to get him back on track and he grew into a lovely pet. I believe there are you tube videos on feeding as well as many sources on how much and what to feed.


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

Hi, *Andy*-

I hope that Mini is feeding well and that everyone else is thriving. I am so sorry for your multiple losses.

NewfieMom


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Sorry to hear of your loss. If a puppy is too weak to nurse, then you need to tube feed it. Nutrical and sugar water are not substitutes for good nutrition.... Four years ago, I had a litter of ten. The smallest one was six ounces at birth.. Fortunately by working with nursing stations, I always put the smallest pups on the easiest/most full nipples, they all survived. And at weaning that pup was one of the bigger pups. My guideline, I got from a whelping book is that pups should gain 10% of their body weight per day. In 2007, I had a pup that did not gain weight thru the day. My husband looked at me and said,"are you going to watch that puppy die?" Fortunately, he is adept at tube feeding, it took two feedings to get him back on track and he grew into a lovely pet. I believe there are you tube videos on feeding as well as many sources on how much and what to feed.


I have first hand experience of that, and thank Sally'sMom bc her husband saved our little white boy by tubefeeding him with such sure hands. That pup is now 70lb Maverick.


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## Elsa (Sep 10, 2013)

Hi Andy,
So sorry you lost Tiny. Is Mini getting any milk at all from his mum? They do need the antibodies from mum's milk to protect them from disease. Especially the colostrum produced before the full milk comes in.
Is there any way you can clear a space for him and hold him on to a teat so he gets at least some of his mum's milk? Then supplement with Lactol in between, depending on daily weight gain. 
Good luck with him, it's always the little, vulnerable ones who catch our hearts.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Update.

Thanks to all who replied, obviously the extra work is dulling my senses they were born on Thursday not Friday.

Last might Mini was crying like a baby, Mom could not offer any comfort in fact she was getting somewhat distressed listening to him, I wrapped him in a towel and walked all night with him gently massaging his body through the towel.

Of course Shadow was very interested in what was happening so I had to take him back to her every half hour, then I noticed something that I hadn't before He had pooped in the blanket, only then did I realize I hadn't noticed any movements from him before.

So I decided if he's going to cry he may as well do it with Mom's Teet in his mouth, He appeared to know what he should be doing just not able to actually perform, I think reading from all the replies He may be a bit tired so I think a small drop of Glucose dissolved in water may be just what He needs.

We work in metric grams instead of ounces (as in the USA) I think I'll try no more than two grams about 0.0705479 of an ounce, looks even less in ounces, the Vet advised Glucose for Shadow to help keep up her energy but he did say not too much as it could cause problems with soft poop.

His brothers and sisters are coming along very well, trying to reserve a Teet for Mini is proving to be a difficult job with the opposition not knowing the rules 

Thank you all, I will keep you updated.

Regards,

Andy.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

A small puppy needs massaging frequently to evacuate urine and stools. Put him under mum's nose so that she will do this by licking. If not do it yourself. I used soft cotton wool dampened with warm water. This must be done often when they are so small. He should also be lying on a warming pad (electric with thermostat) if he is not huddled up with siblings and mum. They get cold and weak very quickly. Your vet should be able to sell you colostrum for puppies as this is vital. The best is from Shadow as she has antibodies from vaccins, etc. If you are tube feeding take care to be sure the tube goes to the stomach not into the lungs. Not easy to do especially when they are very small. I used to get a small syringe (without needle!) and put a finger in pup's mouth which the pup would suck and let the milk dribble from the syringe down my finger into the pup's mouth. He could be too small and weak to suck on a bottle. Hold him in the same position as if he were feeding from Mum, not like a human baby on his back. This takes a long time but at least they get some food and learn the sucking motion on the finger. Make sure your nails are short!! Good luck this is a lot of work and most dog breeders have been through it so you are not alone.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Would this method be helpful?


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

At 5.45 pm Sadly Mini passed to the great Retriever Forrest where there's always a variety of sniffs to follow.

I have to remain positive for remaining pups 5 brothers, 3 sisters and of course Mom Shadow, the courage, strength and fight shown by this pup right to his last heartbeat leaves me with some comfort knowing that these pups will bring the loyalty, determination and love that we all come to expect from the breed.

Shadow had been performing the duties of a mother described by rooroch, her mothering skills are not in doubt however I think the advice given could save another pup for somebody in the future.

mylissyk I try to live by the quote from Mahatma Ghandi, from the time that Mini started to cry I held him close save for the few breaks to post here for advice, I have no doubt that if I'm lucky enough to own a Golden when dying the dog will remain by side until the last breath, it's the least that I owed to Mini and the breed.

The diagnosis of the cause from the Vet is there was possibly a small twist or blockage in the intestine, enough to allow a small amount of poop through when I was massaging him, of course he may have been trying to bring us some comfort as he prefaced his diagnosis with the words "these things happen".

I do not wish to appear ungrateful to the many who offered advice by only quoting two posters, I hope everyone understands that the past twenty four hours or so have been very emotional, so hard to believe the passing of two pups so young could leave a middle aged man with tears that make typing this very difficult.

I will return with a new thread showing the proud mother with her remaining eight pups.

Thank you all so very much for support and advice.

Regards,

Andy


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

you could try keeping the bigger ones to the side while you get the little one to feed with a couple of days of good feds of mum im sure that pup will become stronger. I had pups born over thursday night friday morning and they are not all feeding at the same now so maybe yours will do that soon and it will become a little easier then. are you keeping a check on the pups weight?. I helped all mine get a good feed every 2 hrs the first 2 days till their mum got used to how to lay


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Handy Andy said:


> At 5.45 pm Sadly Mini passed to the great Retriever Forrest where there's always a variety of sniffs to follow.
> 
> I have to remain positive for remaining pups 5 brothers, 3 sisters and of course Mom Shadow, the courage, strength and fight shown by this pup right to his last heartbeat leaves me with some comfort knowing that these pups will bring the loyalty, determination and love that we all come to expect from the breed.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry about Mini.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm so sorry that the babies didn't survive. Your vet is right...these things happen.

I'm looking forward to pictures of mom and the remaining babies. And wishing you happy puppy times, here forward.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

This may already have been posted... But people have had great success feeding newborns with sponges. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuowS5_nges


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

I am sorry Mini didn't make but your vet is right these things do happen. The video with the sponge is good. I do not bother with the scrunchy and I like to keep their front feet able to press on my hand and need it like they would the mother's teat. I say this for any future reference.
Hopefully all will go well now with Shadow and the 5 pups and you will soon be enjoying playing with them.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Hoping that no news is good news


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry about the two babies. If they were meant to be saved your efforts would have done it. These little lives make great big impacts on us, totally understandable losing them brought you to tears. 

I hope Shadow is doing better and all the rest of the litter are thriving.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

*Update*

Hi to Everyone,

Thank you to everyone who replied and were hoping to follow Shadow's progress, here is an update.

We have had an interesting few days, Shadow's abdomen filled with fluid, the vet who was visiting everyday was going to do an X Ray but when we brought her to his surgery he requested permission to do an exploratory operation as she had swollen more in the 24 hours since he had seen her.

It was obviously urgent so we allowed him to operate, he released about a gallon of clear fluid from her abdomen, he stitched her having examined her organs happy he hadn't taken the time to x Ray.

She was back home feeding and looking after her pups within hours, I took her for short walks instead of her usual free run and all appeared fine until yesterday when I thought she was filling out again.

This evening she went back to the vet and as I thought fluid had been building up again, he released about three litres of clear fluid using a special needle with a type of divertor valve, she was fully awake and not under any stress.

His first diagnosis was the number of pups had actually been feeding off her body and her protein levels had dropped, tonight he is more cautious with samples of blood and the fluid being sent for emergency analysis (my instruction).

I have attached a photo of Shadow with her eight puppies, I will get better photos and post them.

Andy


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

huh? I didn't see where she'd had a section, and if the vet who was there had given her a shot of oxytocin (and likely even if not) after the whelping, I can't figure out where any fluid in her abdomen would have come from. Did he remove it from her uterus, or from her abdomen? Why was she on antibiotics in first post? I've never heard of what you are describing.
I hope she is ok.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Handy Andy said:


> Hi to Everyone,
> 
> Thank you to everyone who replied and were hoping to follow Shadow's progress, here is an update.
> 
> ...


Glad to see she and pups are doing well.


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## tine434 (Nov 24, 2013)

Wow, this poor poor girl...... I'm going to pray very hard for her and the remaining pups.... I hate she's had to go through all of this


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> huh? I didn't see where she'd had a section, and if the vet who was there had given her a shot of oxytocin (and likely even if not) after the whelping, I can't figure out where any fluid in her abdomen would have come from. Did he remove it from her uterus, or from her abdomen? Why was she on antibiotics in first post? I've never heard of what you are describing.
> I hope she is ok.


Hi,

You are correct she didn't have a section, possibly the best way to describe her whelping is it happened in two stages, the first natural, the second when the vet called and gave her a shot of oxy to help her.

She finished her course of Antibiotics yesterday, we have also been giving her four paracetamol tablets a day to help as there must some pain with pups pushing on her just above where she has stitches from surgery, I'll try and get a photo of the scar / stitches tomorrow.

My apologies, the fluid was in her abdomen not her uterus, that is how he was able to remove some this evening, on examination during the operation he found all her organs are in good condition he originally thought there might still have been a pup inside her and the X Ray would have shown him the outline of the skeleton. 

The vet (a man in his late fifties / early sixties) told us that never saw this happen before either also consulted with the seniors of three large practices who also had never seen it before.

I hope the above means this experience may be valuable to others in the future.

I have attached what I hope are some better photos.

Thank you,

Andy.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

tine434 said:


> Wow, this poor poor girl...... I'm going to pray very hard for her and the remaining pups.... I hate she's had to go through all of this


Thank you,

The pups are doing great, their eyes have started to open, the biggest weighed in at over 800 grams (almost 30 ounces) two days ago.

In the photos above you may see we have wool collars on most of them except Mr. Grey he has a small collar, the reason for these is we had to mark each pup because we were helping by feeding them with Lactol to take some of the pressure off her, that way when they went to feed from her they were not as hungry.

I will keep everyone posted as to the results unfortunately I can't post as often as I would like.

Andy.


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## Elsa (Sep 10, 2013)

Did the vet prescribe the paracetamol Andy? As I understand it paracetamol can be toxic to dogs, depending on the dosage, and can be excreted in the milk.
Evidence Based Vet Forum • View topic - Acetaminophen Toxicity in Cats and Dogs

I'd be very wary of giving it to a lactating bitch.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Handy Andy said:


> Thank you,
> 
> The pups are doing great, their eyes have started to open, the biggest weighed in at over 800 grams (almost 30 ounces) two days ago.
> 
> ...


First off let me say I am glad that all is heading in the right direction for you now.
Oh i know this duty very well. I am in the middle of doing this type of support feed with my litter of 7 right now as the mum got poorly after she whelped. We are doing the same from the wool collars to feeding a litter to stop them draining mum while she recovers. How old are the pups now? mine just had their eyes open as well. 

i have never heard of giving a dog paracetamol did you vet ask you to give her this? because whatever the mum is given goes right to the pups through her milk and it seems a little strange when they would have more suitable painkillers that are safer for her and pups. I think i would ask for something that is designed for animals or do some checking with other vets sometimes the old timer vets (over 50's or 60's) use stuff that was good back in the day but has now been found to have bad sign effects the last thing you want is more trouble. Plus sometimes it is good to get a second opinion from another vets to make sure i do it all the time if i think something is not right. I am not saying it is just seems strange.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

cazzy said:


> First off let me say I am glad that all is heading in the right direction for you now.
> Oh i know this duty very well. I am in the middle of doing this type of support feed with my litter of 7 right now as the mum got poorly after she whelped. We are doing the same from the wool collars to feeding a litter to stop them draining mum while she recovers. How old are the pups now? mine just had their eyes open as well.
> 
> i have never heard of giving a dog paracetamol did you vet ask you to give her this? because whatever the mum is given goes right to the pups through her milk and it seems a little strange when they would have more suitable painkillers that are safer for her and pups. I think i would ask for something that is designed for animals or do some checking with other vets sometimes the old timer vets (over 50's or 60's) use stuff that was good back in the day but has now been found to have bad sign effects the last thing you want is more trouble. Plus sometimes it is good to get a second opinion from another vets to make sure i do it all the time if i think something is not right. I am not saying it is just seems strange.


Thank you,

The vet did not prescribe paracetamol, obviously one of those silly mistakes we have made trying to make her comfortable, we will stop immediately.

There are now four veterinary practices involved in Shadow's recovery, her primary vet and three that he is consulting with, I don't know what the billing arrangements are but I'll be happy with a positive outcome for Shadow, money I can earn more of, Shadow is unique to us.

Our concern at the moment is she does not appear to be eating or drinking enough, after the operation she was taking healthy amounts of chicken mixed with high protein puppy food and on average 3 litres of milk with 50% water (total 6 litres a day) which is approximately a U.S. gallon and a half of fluids. 

She is still feeding and caring for her pups, today Mr. Grey weighed in at over 1500 grams (almost 3 pounds) and the smallest at 1050 grams (a little over two pounds). 

Obviously our nerves are on edge waiting for the test results from the Lab.

Once again Thank You All for your support and valuable comments.

I am attaching a photo of the stitches, to a vet it may be interesting however dog owners may not like it so please if it offends say so and I will remove it.

Andy


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Poor sweet Shadow. I hope everything improves from this point on. I have never helped whelp a litter but have read posts from those who have on this forum. It really is a lot of work! The puppies look great. I hope to see more of them as they grow.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Those stitches look OK. It is always an area where they get a bit damp because of the enlarged teats and no air getting onto the site. You could always swab them a bit with some liquid Savlon. Read the instructions on the bottle and use as recommended and then dry the area with paper kitchen towel. Make sure no product runs onto the teats where the puppies suckle.
I am glad you have stopped the paracetamol and hope fully she will not get any more water in her abdomen. I have never heard of this either. Their weight sounds good and they will soon be eating from a dish. Soak the puppy food in warm (boiled) water and give it to them in a shallow dish. Take it away when they have finished and throw away anything not eaten (or give to Shadow to finish). Never leave soaked food it can very quickly go off. Raising puppies is a lot of work and worry and people who buy them often do not understand why the cost is high.


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## tine434 (Nov 24, 2013)

OK this seems really weird to ask but..... How did Shadow get pregnant? I mean, obviously we know HOW but I mean was this a planned litter? Do you plan on spaying her after this? Just curious as you said it wasn't for profit and all and I did not see any threads about her before. I worry if she's had these complications this time that another pregnancy could maybe have the same or worse, especially with fluids in her abdomen and things like that.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Handy Andy said:


> Thank you,
> 
> The vet did not prescribe paracetamol, obviously one of those silly mistakes we have made trying to make her comfortable, we will stop immediately.
> 
> ...


 i have not been watching my bitch drink after i had her drank a set amount of water which was 1200ml which had a rehydration support powder in it anything over that was a bonus. I have just checked when you first posted and my pups are only 1 day older then yours so i know those weights are really good my largest is now 1360g and smallest is 1200g now. If you think shadow is in pain speak to you vet i would have thought he would have given her some tablets to take after the operation but he may have given her an injection at the time. If you want to know just how much she is eating or drinking a day keep a record. Right now i am doing that with my bitches food i weigh the food and write down how much she has and what the time is i have given it. My problem was not the same as yours but we have both ended up in the same place.I hope your having more luck then me with cutting claws on the pups mine go mad everytime they smell me.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

rooroch said:


> Those stitches look OK. It is always an area where they get a bit damp because of the enlarged teats and no air getting onto the site. You could always swab them a bit with some liquid Savlon. Read the instructions on the bottle and use as recommended and then dry the area with paper kitchen towel. Make sure no product runs onto the teats where the puppies suckle.
> I am glad you have stopped the paracetamol and hope fully she will not get any more water in her abdomen. I have never heard of this either. Their weight sounds good and they will soon be eating from a dish. Soak the puppy food in warm (boiled) water and give it to them in a shallow dish. Take it away when they have finished and throw away anything not eaten (or give to Shadow to finish). Never leave soaked food it can very quickly go off. Raising puppies is a lot of work and worry and people who buy them often do not understand why the cost is high.


Thank you, 

Yes we have been swabbing the stitches with Savlon because as you point out no air can get in and when in the nest she is lying on a warm surface which would be ideal for bacterial growth.

I really wish the pups could feed themselves even a little, (explanation at the bottom).



tine434 said:


> OK this seems really weird to ask but..... How did Shadow get pregnant? I mean, obviously we know HOW but I mean was this a planned litter? Do you plan on spaying her after this? Just curious as you said it wasn't for profit and all and I did not see any threads about her before. I worry if she's had these complications this time that another pregnancy could maybe have the same or worse, especially with fluids in her abdomen and things like that.


Thank you,

I have always believed the only silly question is the one we forget or are afraid to ask, so please feel free to ask anything, their may even be a clue in the question.

Yes the litter was planned, she had been to the Vet before mating and got the Vets approval as she was a fine fit young dog.

Trust me she or any dog we own in the future will not be having any more pups I can't recall being this stressed even when our children were born.

I can honestly say no amount of money could pay for these pups, since Shadow went into labour life has been a roller coaster in all the wrong ways.



cazzy said:


> i have not been watching my bitch drink after i had her drank a set amount of water which was 1200ml which had a rehydration support powder in it anything over that was a bonus. I have just checked when you first posted and my pups are only 1 day older then yours so i know those weights are really good my largest is now 1360g and smallest is 1200g now. If you think shadow is in pain speak to you vet i would have thought he would have given her some tablets to take after the operation but he may have given her an injection at the time. If you want to know just how much she is eating or drinking a day keep a record. Right now i am doing that with my bitches food i weigh the food and write down how much she has and what the time is i have given it. My problem was not the same as yours but we have both ended up in the same place.I hope your having more luck then me with cutting claws on the pups mine go mad everytime they smell me.


Thank you, 

The Vet called this evening and asked we immediately take her to his surgery for re-hydration using a drip, since then she has thrown up any food I could get her to eat and he found blood in her poop, so she will be staying overnight.

The plan is to take her to the College of Veterinary Surgeons tomorrow where they have the most up to date technology and Professors of everything animal related.

The results of the samples taken last night came back a little low on protein but not sufficient to worry about, as the Vet said a negative result would have given him more to work on.

So it appears for the moment anyway Shadow's fate is in the lap of the God's, we can only hope they view her kindly.

If the moderators feel this thread has morphed into something better suited to another area of the site feel free to divide it or move it to a more relevant place.

My Thanks to all who have posted.

Andy


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

All my best thoughts, wishes, and prayers for Shadow. I hope the College can find out how to help her and she gets to come home very soon.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Oh dear you poor things you must be so worried about her. I hope all goes well at the vet and that she will come home soon feeling better. I feel for you.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Oh dear, poor sweet Shadow. I hope all the many doctors can figure out what's wrong and fix it. In the meantime, I hope you are able to get a bit of rest between feeding the babies...


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Do the vets know she was given paracetamol?
Have they checked her liver values with bloodwork.
I would be concerned that the fluid is ascites from liver damage/disease.
I hope she improves soon.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

sending positive thoughts that Shadow is soon home and well on her road to recovery and the pups continue doing well ... is there a possibility of finding a wet nurse for the pups?


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Jennifer1 said:


> Do the vets know she was given paracetamol?
> Have they checked her liver values with bloodwork.
> I would be concerned that the fluid is ascites from liver damage/disease.
> I hope she improves soon.


Thank you,

Yes we told him about the paracetamol, he checked the pack and is happy they didn't do any harm although he did say she didn't need any pain relief.

When searching the net ascites came up as the main term to match her condition, the Vet is fairly confident that all her organs are in good shape as he was able to carry out an internal examination when he operated on her.

That said he is ruling out nothing at this time even though there are usually other signs that accompany different types of organ failure.

More blood samples were sent away tonight for more exhaustive tests so the consultants will have everything they need for tomorrow. 

Thank you,

Andy


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

cazzy said:


> i have not been watching my bitch drink after i had her drank a set amount of water which was 1200ml which had a rehydration support powder in it anything over that was a bonus. I have just checked when you first posted and my pups are only 1 day older then yours so i know those weights are really good my largest is now 1360g and smallest is 1200g now. If you think shadow is in pain speak to you vet i would have thought he would have given her some tablets to take after the operation but he may have given her an injection at the time. If you want to know just how much she is eating or drinking a day keep a record. Right now i am doing that with my bitches food i weigh the food and write down how much she has and what the time is i have given it. My problem was not the same as yours but we have both ended up in the same place.I hope your having more luck then me with cutting claws on the pups mine go mad everytime they smell me.


Thank you,

I find the feeding fairly OK although they are putting my rough (workers) hands to the test with their claws, however I am having problems stimulating them to pee and poop, even when we were giving them feeds to take the pressure off Shadow she was doing the main work of cleaning etc.

I do wish we could find an alternative way of feeding and nursing them as Shadow will be very annoyed if anything happens to them while she is in hospital.

How is your girl doing?

Andy


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

That is a shame but they always say "it always get worse before it gets better" and it did for us as well I really hope shadow is home soon and with her pups again.Just hold on and keep going they will start to go toilet on their own soon you should have maybe a week left it normally happens around 21 days i will post a page out of my book of the bitch so you can see what will happen with your pups and when. I think i have been lucky with my litter and my girl. I have had to make mine go toilet a few times over the last week or so when their mum was really bad and drained. I use a bit of folded kitchen towel wet with warm water and stoked them with a tiny bit of pressure from the belly down it seemed to work I have add a video that shows you how it might help you a little as you can see she wasn't really gentle about it because their mum wouldn't be either. My girl is doing a lot better now thank god but we are still feeding the pups twice a day and hoping we can stop soon. We are still talking to our vets about her treatment and what to do when it comes to the pups because she doesn't seem to have enough milk right now to feed them today we are cutting out the morning feed to see of she is able to cope has she seemed to have more milk yesterday. right now she still eats 150g royal canin gastro intestinal food 5 times a day and 1 sachets of fortiflora a day to help her,she lost a lot of weight during the week she was ill but hopefully she will start putting some on soon I have add a link to where i was posting details on this forum below the video as well it started of just getting some info on taking temps while in labour because it was the first time i was trying it that way. Have you been cutting their claws because it helps and i have the marks on my hands as well i normally try and get the left paw on my fingers and the other hooked just in front of my thumb so they can still do the pawing motion like they would on mum but don't slip so much 

lvideo showing how to make them wee and poo.





link to my thread on her
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...-discussion/311537-labour-has-started-10.html


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Here is a copy of the page out of my book incase you don't' have the info


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

cazzy said:


> That is a shame but they always say "it always get worse before it gets better" and it did for us as well I really hope shadow is home soon and with her pups again.Just hold on and keep going they will start to go toilet on their own soon you should have maybe a week left it normally happens around 21 days i will post a page out of my book of the bitch so you can see what will happen with your pups and when. I think i have been lucky with my litter and my girl. I have had to make mine go toilet a few times over the last week or so when their mum was really bad and drained. I use a bit of folded kitchen towel wet with warm water and stoked them with a tiny bit of pressure from the belly down it seemed to work I have add a video that shows you how it might help you a little as you can see she wasn't really gentle about it because their mum wouldn't be either. My girl is doing a lot better now thank god but we are still feeding the pups twice a day and hoping we can stop soon. We are still talking to our vets about her treatment and what to do when it comes to the pups because she doesn't seem to have enough milk right now to feed them today we are cutting out the morning feed to see of she is able to cope has she seemed to have more milk yesterday. right now she still eats 150g royal canin gastro intestinal food 5 times a day and 1 sachets of fortiflora a day to help her,she lost a lot of weight during the week she was ill but hopefully she will start putting some on soon I have add a link to where i was posting details on this forum below the video as well it started of just getting some info on taking temps while in labour because it was the first time i was trying it that way. Have you been cutting their claws because it helps and i have the marks on my hands as well i normally try and get the left paw on my fingers and the other hooked just in front of my thumb so they can still do the pawing motion like they would on mum but don't slip so much
> 
> lvideo showing how to make them wee and poo.
> 
> ...





cazzy said:


> Here is a copy of the page out of my book incase you don't' have the info
> View attachment 437314


Thank you very much, invaluable help.

I see where I was going wrong in a few ways, first I was being too gentle, second I think I was holding the pups too close a few actually went to sleep in my hand last night.

The Vet released Shadow for a few hours as he has built up her fluids, we are now waiting for the call from the college, he has a particular professor in mind and wants to ensure she is fully briefed on Shadow's history before we meet.

The more intensive blood tests came back showing almost everything normal, the most important thing being enzyme levels to confirm her liver is not damaged.

He is anxious that she gets as much high protein foods as possible, chicken with no additives (we were adding puppy food) and eggs in milk.

I am watching Shadow on a baby camera as I type, she is back in the nest doing mother's work all as nature intended, I have to point out that she appeared hesitant to go back into the nest when she came home so I left the room to allow her go back in her own time, lucky my thinking worked.

Thank you for taking the time to help and guide us.

Andy


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm happy that she is home again. I hope you get some answers soon.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

I am glad she is home. If you are having any problems at all or just want to ask something by all means do there are a lot of people on here with the info you may need remember no question is silly. If i think of anything else that might help i will let you know.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

It sounds as if you are doing everything possible for Shadow. I hope all the test find nothing at all! It's great that you and Cazzy are able to share useful information...Are the puppies continuing to gain weight?


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

I am glad she is home and hope the results from the College are good. You could also add fish to her diet (without bones). Sardines and mackerel in brine (not oil) are good protein once or twice a week. Also beef liver (small amount each day). Goats milk yogurt would be easier to digest than cows milk. Drinking goats milk is also good for her. I hope things start to get better and you can enjoy your puppies.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You might also cut pup's nails- if they are bothering your hands, they are likely bothering her shaved belly and incision. It's easy to do- speak up if you don't know how.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Oh i just thought I don't know if yours are doing the same but when my pups wake up and want feeding and either i or mum don't get there quick enough sometimes they are sucking on each other (i'm sure you can guess where) and it makes them wee if yours are doing that as well might explain why you might have trouble getting them to wee sometimes.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Jennifer1 said:


> Do the vets know she was given paracetamol?
> Have they checked her liver values with bloodwork.
> I would be concerned that the fluid is ascites from liver damage/disease.
> I hope she improves soon.


Update

My apologies to everyone we have been run off our feet here, sometimes we feel we are running around like head less chickens (no offense meant to chickens).

Shadow attended the Veterinary College last Friday for a day of tests, x Rays and Scans.

There are times we all wish we were wrong, sadly Jennifer1 has called it the same as if she were the consultant vet.

The fluid is ascites, the scan showed Shadow has a small liver, difficult at this stage to say if it is genetic or something that developed during her pregnancy.

A repeat of the protein measurement (blood test) showed a slight improvement in her albumin levels, her blood albumin levels were 20g/l whereas the minimum expected or normal is above 25g/l.

The prognosis is very much in the negative as very few dogs survive this condition, to help her she is taking medication, the main tablets appear to consist of milk thistle, the remaining drugs are to help her manage the main medication.

We now have her wearing a tee shirt to help stop her feeding the pups, she still wants to play an active part in rearing them, we think it would be beyond cruelty to keep her away from her pups altogether so we are feeding them every three hours so Shadow is not being put under pressure.

We are hoping that relieving the pressure of producing milk will help her albumin count to improve to a level that at least sustains her, this is only a hope not a medical fact.

The consultant wants to investigate further by taking a liver sample using key hole surgery, my question was is it to help the dog or for research purposes as we don't want her going through anything that will cause her further pain or discomfort, the answer was inconclusive except to say that the most likely problem is chronic hepatitis and the procedure would confirm this finding.

As part of the number of procedures she went through they removed three litres of fluid from her abdomen, the result being a happier dog who regained her appetite, she is now on a mix of Hepatic dog food with boiled chicken, she also gets poached and scrambled eggs as eggs are a good source of albumin.

I am happy to say that she does not appear to have gained any further fluid in her abdomen, that said we am looking for hope and may be missing something that is obvious to others.

Our realistic target at this time is to get her another four weeks so she can see and hopefully play with her pups as they get big enough to interact with her. 

I'm not sure we can hope for much more in fact it may not be wise to because she will require constant medical intervention, her vet is on call twenty four hours a day should she or when she needs him.

I'm not sure if there is any more we can we can do for her but I am open to suggestions.

Thank you all.

Andy


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Oh no i am so sorry to hear this. No wonder there hasn't been an update till now if you have to cope with feeding the pups all the time. From what i just read by doing a quick search she will be on meds for the rest of her life for this and fluid may come back which will need treatment it didn't really say anything else. I think you were right to question the procedure the vet wanted to do , but if it was me and you may have done this already I would ask what might happen if the results show that it hepatitis does it change how she is treated or will treatment still be the same and depending on the reply that is when you need to decided if doing it is really worth putting her through it or not. 
This is just what i would do i am sure others would do something else, remember if you have questions make sure you ask them and if you don't understand something tell them they need to explain it more it is better to get as much info as you can. Some times things can be hard to take in until you have a day or 2 to think about it.


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## loraliromance (May 7, 2014)

Oh Andy, I'm so very sorry for the unfortunate chaos you've experienced over this short period of time. I just stumbled upon this thread and truly wish I had more advice to offer, but I don't and after reading the entire thing I can tell you really need something positive right now. 

My parents bred Standard Poodles for a while and you sound like my father, such an animal lover that even when he was told that the fight he was putting up for some of the smallest in the litter was pointless, he continued. Some of those most sad-seeming and impossible to save pups turned out to be the best and when he did lose one it hurt him so bad that he of course cried, but the puppy got a little funeral, he even carved out a small head stone. I believe moments like that are the reason he didn't stay a breeder, to him it wasn't just profit, you know? He loved every puppy that was born and losing one no matter how short of a time he/she was around was like losing a best friend. 

What I'm trying to get at, because I'm terrible at replying with a short response is that, just know you did everything you could and when others would have given up, you fought until those sweet babies could fight no more and they may not have been able to show it, but they were grateful. The same can also be said for Shadow, you may not know it, but she knows your unconditional love and that you're doing everything you can for her.

Archer and I are sending prayers your way. Shadow seems like a sweet heart and hopefully she surprises everyone and will be around to play with her puppies and bring you much more love and happiness.


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## Elsa (Sep 10, 2013)

I'm so sorry to read your last post Andy.Shadow sounds like a real darling and a wonderful mum who's given everything she can to her pups at her own expense.
I wouldn't lose hope yet. The small liver didn't happen over night. Sounds like something she was living and coping with before she had her pups, and that it's the protein she's been giving the pups, both in the womb and in milk that have depleted her own reserves.
I don't want to give false hope, but if that is the case, if you can get her through this then let's hope she will stabilize again, and, now that the vets are aware of the problem, hopefully be kept under control.

Have the vets supplied something to suppress the milk? I would think that's essential, as it will allow her albumin levels to rise, bearing in mind that the hepatic diet is low protein in order to rest the liver.

If it was me I would have her biopsied, both for her sake to get a definitive diagnosis and treatment, and for the sake of the puppies in case it's an inheritable condition, in which case obviously they should not be bred from.

Glad that the puppies are doing well, you must be exhausted!

Elsa x


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Oh dear, I am so sorry to hear this. I have been thinking about you. I think you have had good advice from others and please ask as many questions to the vets as you can to help you make a decision what to do. It would probably be better if she stopped feeding the puppies. The vet can give something to stop the milk production. They can soon eat more solid food. I hope that Shadow will get stronger and continue to live a good life on medication.


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## goodog (May 6, 2013)

My first girl came from a litter of 13-all survived but unique deal. One of the owners was an anesthesiologist. Had oxygen and kids breathing equipment on hand to help the smallest--a boy named Houdini! Molly and Houdini were the first pair to escape the whelping box. 

Keep the Pedialyte going and use plastic doll toy bottles if you cant find any other equipment with which to feed. 

Take care of Mom. I hope you can find help. 

Contact the All Ireland Golden Ret Club. They have a Rescue group that may help *w/ volunteers. 
All Ireland Golden Retriever Club*

*CONTACT
*Hon Secretary
Mrs. Eilis Horan
*Tel & Fax:* 064 6633071 E-Mail: [email protected]


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm so sorry Shadow has received such a dreadful diagnosis. As others have said though, she has probably lived with this condition for a while so perhaps she can live a good deal longer with it? It sounds like you love sweet Shadow very much. I hope you are able to spend quality time with her from now on, even with all those mouths to feed.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

We had another meeting with our vet this evening after he had received the full report and spoke once again with the consultant.

We now have no real choice in the matter, all parties have reached the conclusion that it would be better for Shadow if we put her to sleep peacefully and without any further pain or discomfort to her.

What makes this so hard is except for where her coat is shaved and of course the swollen abdomen she looks like a perfect Golden who just needs to build up a little weight after delivering her pups.

Honestly we don't know what to do, in a strange way we think Shadow and Holly know that something is very wrong, Shadow came to us as a pup and new best friend to Holly after our first Golden died (old age) she got her name from the way that she was literally all the time in Holly's shadow.

Walking into the house we saw her legacy, eight beautiful pups, the only way we can thank her for them, the gift of loyalty, friendship and fun she brought with her is to allow the professionals do what they believe is right for her.

My apologies I will update when we decide what to do.

Andy.


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## kellyguy (Mar 5, 2014)

I'm so very sorry to hear that prognosis. Prayers for you and your girl.


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## loraliromance (May 7, 2014)

Oh Andy, I'm so very sorry. Just know that she loves you and a little of her will live on in those sweet babies she brought into the world.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Oh I didn't expect that. You must do as you and your vets think best. What a horrible decision to make. I wish you luck with the rearing of the pups and the joy you will get out of them in the future. Sending strength vibes for the next few difficult days.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

wow I didn't expect that choice to be given this soon after starting her on the right meds, I thought they would give it a little bit longer to see if the meds would work. I would hate to have to make that choice. My thoughts are with you at this hard time.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

This is devastating. I agree with Cazzy, I hope the vets will let you give the medication more time to work to see if she will improve. With all my heart I wish and pray for a better solution for you and Shadow. 

My heart goes out to you, I know this is a tremendous blow.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I'm so very sorry to see this update.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

I am sorry you are even having to consider this option.

I hope you can give her sometime to let the medicine work.

Many years ago, I knew a golden that during her first litter she was found to have only one kidney. She was 3 or so years old at the time. When she began going into kidney failure during pregnancy, her owners were give the option to abort the litter, or continue with the pregnancy. I believe they chose to carry on with the pregnancy. When the litter was born, by c-section, the pups were immediately placed on puppy formula. Mom was allowed to interact with them, but not nurse. I know, that eventually she recovered. I lost track of her when she was about 7, but she was doing well then.

The vets thoughts at the time were, that while she had enough kidney function for her to thrive. However, when she became pregnant, her kidneys could not cope with the added demands. When she no longer had to provide for the pups, she was able to slowly recover.

Best wishes for your girl.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

I hope there is some good news soon


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Update

We had to make a hard decision so we decided to keep feeding the pups which we reckoned would take a lot of pressure off Shadow as the pups consume about seven pints of Lactol (formula) per day between them.

We were looking at a very depressed Shadow wearing two tee shirts to keep her away from feeding her pups so we took the drastic measure of stopping the medication to allow her do what came as nature intended, be a mother for the time she had left.

We introduced a diet of boiled chicken, chicken stock, puppy food as a filler and about 150 grams of Hepatic dog food served up every four hours, we then added boiled minced meat instead of chicken to give a little variety.

We continued to feed the pups so they were drawing as little energy (protein) as possible from Shadow.

The consultant vets in the college were not pleased and told us this through our own vet who saw our point of view which was one happy day was better than two days of living in misery for Shadow, regardless of the outcome for her we would still have to raise her pups.

Surprising for the vets all was going well until last Sunday night when I noticed something wrong with one of Shadow's teats, the vet called on Monday morning and diagnosed mastitis, he gave us an antibiotic which would still allow her to feed the feed the pups but the challenge of bandaging the teat was left to us.

We then decided to introduce some baby formula (rice) to the pups Lactol between a few feeds, from today they will not be getting any more bottles and we will keep Shadow away from feeding as best we can, I have no doubt that she will find away to feed them because..................

Our biggest surprise their is no sign of fluid (ascites) in Shadow's abdomen, she looks like a horror picture of an abused dog who was denied food which is easy to correct with a more balanced diet.

We are not fooling ourselves everything could change for her in a heart beat so we are going to continue adjusting her food levels, making sure she gets plenty of rest and of course praise, we are also hoping to introduce the pups to their first official puppy food tomorrow.

I will posts some photos as soon as possible.

Thank you for the prayers and positive energy everyone has sent to sent Shadow (and us).

Andy.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am so very sorry - Shadow sounds like such a wonderful mother and loved companion. 



Handy Andy said:


> We had another meeting with our vet this evening after he had received the full report and spoke once again with the consultant.
> 
> We now have no real choice in the matter, all parties have reached the conclusion that it would be better for Shadow if we put her to sleep peacefully and without any further pain or discomfort to her.
> 
> ...


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Handy Andy said:


> Update
> 
> We had to make a hard decision so we decided to keep feeding the pups which we reckoned would take a lot of pressure off Shadow as the pups consume about seven pints of Lactol (formula) per day between them.
> 
> ...


This must be such a nightmare for you. Kudos for standing up for Shadow and letting her have what she wants--her pups. I look forward to seeing some photos soon. Best thoughts to Shadow.


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

i just read this thread.. my goodness i am so sorry for what you are going through. i hope you enjoy all the time you have left and fingers are crossed for a full recovery.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Handy Andy said:


> Update
> 
> We had to make a hard decision so we decided to keep feeding the pups which we reckoned would take a lot of pressure off Shadow as the pups consume about seven pints of Lactol (formula) per day between them.
> 
> ...


I think you are doing the right thing. Let her be happy and love on her babies. If love is enough to keep her going, then she will make it through this and recover because you obviously have abundant love for her. 

I know we are worlds apart, but I hope the support from the board helps you some, you are getting a lot of it across the world. Keep doing what you are doing, I just have to believe it's working!


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Its great to hear that shadow is still doing ok right now. Matitis is very common in dogs with large litters or very small litters. You could place a warm wet cloth on the nipple where it is and try expressing some milk from that one to help or any of the others that you find are feeling hard. That is what i did with my golden last litter because she had way too much milk for the 5 pups. I am no longer feeding our pups bottles either we just make the milk and pour it in a dish for them to drink like water you could try giving the milk that way as well if they still are having it. You have been doing a great job with these pups it does start to get a llittle easier now apart from cleaning up after them all. If you have any questions about weening there are lot of people on here who can give you advice. Look forward to seeing some new pictures of them all.


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## Lynn5707 (Aug 30, 2014)

Hello,
Just read this post. You are such a compassionate man with such love for Shadow and her pups. Prayers and positive thoughts sent. Hoping for a full recovery for Shadow.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Andy*

Praying for sweet, sweet, Shadow-praying for a miracle.
Praying for her very sweet puppies and you!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I agree, I think you are doing right by Shadow.
I hope you have many good days ahead of you.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

I hope everything has been going good with shadow and the pups looking forward to an update and fingers crossed some pics


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

We had a beautiful morning here yesterday (Sunday) so we allowed Shadow, Holly and the pups some fun time in the Garden.

I have two videos one short and one long (which is still uploading), I think you can see what I mean from the short one, Shadow has good strength she doesn't look her usual self because of the shaved coat etc but that is the least of our worries.

You Tube Click Here much better than a photo if I got it right.

Our Thanks to Everyone.

Andy.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Oh that was precious! Shadow looks very good--you'd never know she's been ill. And those lovely chubby puppies.... Thank you for sharing.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

That was great to see. I am so lad you followed your instincts and not the vet. She looks good and the pups are lovely.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

They all look so wonderful!! 

Thank goodness  Good on you for following your instincts!

Thanks for sharing



Handy Andy said:


> We had a beautiful morning here yesterday (Sunday) so we allowed Shadow, Holly and the pups some fun time in the Garden.
> 
> I have two videos one short and one long (which is still uploading), I think you can see what I mean from the short one, Shadow has good strength she doesn't look her usual self because of the shaved coat etc but that is the least of our worries.
> 
> ...


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

The puppies look chubby and healthy, and Shadow looks lovely!


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Enjoyed seeing the video of the darling pups and beautiful Shadow, they all look wonderful.

Prayers Shadow continues to improve and do well.


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## tine434 (Nov 24, 2013)

They all look happy and healthy, wow


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## Lynn5707 (Aug 30, 2014)

Thank you so much for sharing the video. Shadow and pups look great!


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

What a wonderful video. The pups all look fat and healthy and Shadow looks like she is doing great.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I saw the beginning of this thread when you first started but didnt see all the rest of what happened to Shadow until today. Based on the video I would say she looks really good and so glad she is still with you. I think that feeding the pups exasperated her condition and not feeding pups will help her tremendously. I am glad you made the choice to not let her go yet. Going through an ordeal myself with my girl and I know it just breaks your heart to see something happen to them, especially with pups there. They look great so you have done a great job raising them!


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Wow that video was great to see. Shadow looks so full of life and happy. Even with everything she has been through she is looking a lot better then my female although mine is still feeding and trying to gain the weight she lost the only thing that appears to be happening is her losing coat everywhere in chunks ....lol. The pups look great nice and chunky as well mine only got outside for about 10 mins had rain since temp is zero today ugh winter is coming early. You have done a wonderful job with everything that has happen just under 4 wks left then you can have a very long and good rest.


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

Checking in on shadow


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## Martin (Feb 21, 2011)

How are Shadow and her puppies doing?


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes how is the family!?


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Hi,

Thanks to everyone for their patience waiting for news, you may see I am posting at 3.55 AM  so please forgive silly mistakes.

Shadow is doing remarkably well, she plays with her pups even feeding them a little as we make sure the pups are fed before allowing her near them, although this does not always work as she can get ahead of us when she sees their food being prepared.

Her pups are literally coming on in leaps and bounds, all bundles of joy to watch as they develop into beautiful Golden Retrievers.

We do have an issue with Shadow's milk, it would be better for her health if she was not producing any as we could then reduce the high protein content of her diet and add more Adult food to build her up. 

If we try to force dry her milk supply it means reducing the quantity of her food, this would not be a good idea at the moment as we think she needs the protein to continue the production of albumin, the vet could her an injection of steroids however he is reluctant to do this as there may be side effects which could set her back.

A very honest man he is up front about being surprised that she has survived this long and appears to be one who is about to prove the experts wrong, she has already done this when she passed the three week deadline they gave her and is pushing all their findings by still growing stronger and passed the four week deadline which they said was the most she could possibly live.

Should anyone have their dog diagnosed with Ascites I would be more than happy to let them know what we did with Shadow, as our solution is based on trial and error I can't say we have found a cure or definite treatment regime however, given the options we were given and so far having beaten the odds it can't hurt to try.

Three ingredients that are absolutely necessary are:

1) The power of prayer 
2) Positive thinking / energy
3) Ranking with number one is, showing love to your dog.

I have photos and will post them in the next day or two, sorry the videos didn't come out very good and I didn't have time to edit them.

Thank you one and all,

Andy.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so glad for the continued good news! Thanks for updating us.


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## Bozema (Nov 23, 2009)

What wonderful news that Shadow is continuing to defy the odds. I am so very happy for all of you. Miracles do happen and I too (from personal experience) believe in the power of prayer and the healing power of love - and following your instincts. Please do keep us posted on Shadow's progress and the progress of the pups. Though I hadn't posted to this point because I had nothing significant to add, I have been checking back at regular intervals to hear how things were going. Please know that there are people out there who have been praying for Shadow and her family and for you. Blessings to you all.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Its great to hear she is still doing good. Have you got homes lined up for the pups yet because if you haven't you should start to think about it as they are nearly 7 weeks old. Cant wait to see the pictures.


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## Lynn5707 (Aug 30, 2014)

Thanks for the update. So glad Shadow and pups are doing well.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

How wonderful! I look forward to seeing the pictures.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

cazzy said:


> Its great to hear she is still doing good. Have you got homes lined up for the pups yet because if you haven't you should start to think about it as they are nearly 7 weeks old. Cant wait to see the pictures.


Hi Cazzy,

That is going to be a Big Problem :doh: the pups are about 80% hand raised, if we remember how this thread got started parting with them is going to be a whole new ball game.

We know six of the eight must go to new homes, originally we were keeping one, to demonstrate how difficult this may be we haven't chosen which two to keep.

What I can say is the new owners will have to prove they deserve to get one, we have invested seven weeks off work and countless hours plus we are expecting a whopper of a bill from our own vet along with the cost of the consultant vets.

We will not recover our outlay, in fact it's a good time to advise anyone thinking of breeding a dog to make sure they have pet insurance in place, hindsight is twenty twenty vision unfortunately we were blind at the time of breeding.

As we have put the money issue aside we will be concentrating on the quality of their new homes which we hope to keep local.

Regards,

Andy.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Hi All,

Now for some photos, I have chosen a few which start when we knew Shadow had problems and finish today where we see what I hope you will agree is a healthy Shadow with her pups.

We star with Shadow in her whelping box with her abdomen distended stretched from the quantity of Ascites present.

Beside that photo we see her still carrying out her duties as a Mother. 

Next we see a very unhappy Shadow at this time she can't feed her pups because of the medication (that we then stopped).

Beside that we see a bowl of food which worked, it comprises of Hepatic dog food mixed with puppy food and minced beef.

The next photo shows the boiled chicken which is added to the mix.

I took the next photos today, it is Shadow surrounded by her pups who are trying to feed from her.

The next photo shows Shadow with Mr. Brown, he is as near a carbon copy of his Dad we are ever likely to see.

Next we see the pups trying to feed again, Holly is waiting for Shadow to play.

The bottom shows Shadow leaving her pups, Holly is looking at pup number eight who is arriving.

The last photo is of Miss Green (I think) she is coming out of a hole that Shadow dug which I understand it is natural for Golden's to prepare their own whelping place.

I will put some more of the pups up later.

Andy


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Lovely, really brings a great big smile. I'm am beyond thrilled Shadow is doing so well, and the puppies are just big healthy bruisers.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

mylissyk said:


> Lovely, really brings a great big smile. I'm am beyond thrilled Shadow is doing so well, and the puppies are just big healthy bruisers.


Thank you,

We are very happy with her, one of the best signs we saw recently was she she chewed the bed she shares with Holly. 

My wife had let them out that morning when she came into the kitchen she announced we have our old Shadow back again 

I don't know how much she pays for those beds but usually she is giving out to Shadow all the way into the house, this time she had joy in her voice.

I think the next photo is of Mr. Grey.

In case anyone is wondering the pups get their names from the color of their collars 

Regards,

Andy


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Well the puppies are lovely and so are Shadow and Holly. It would be so difficult to part with them if I were in your shoes. I hope you are able to place them locally so you can keep in touch. They are truly a beautiful family.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Great news and lovely photos. I am so glad Shadow is doing so well. I hope it continues and proves the vets wrong. You have done a lovely job. The puppies are beautiful. As Outwest said I hope you will be able to see them once they have gone and that their owners become friends.


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Handy Andy said:


> Hi Cazzy,
> 
> That is going to be a Big Problem :doh: the pups are about 80% hand raised, if we remember how this thread got started parting with them is going to be a whole new ball game.
> 
> ...



Oh I know how you feel we are keeping 2 pups as well and haven't picked yet. I have been a little bit more picky with this litter then my last and I think that is because of the hand rearing we did I was always picky anyway but my husband says it is worse this time. We were lucky Tessie didn't need vet treatment like you but we do have all our dogs insured.Even with ours being insured and only special food and supplements for her food and then puppy milk it has still costed us at least 5000kr (about £500 maybe ) insurance does not cover these things normally and on top of all the normal costs of having a litter.Then I took her in for blood tests an ultrasound and X-ray the day before she gave birth to check things as she had trouble last time and lost half her litter which was another 3000kr which our insurance didn't cover either .We are just lucky that I am at home with my dogs anyway it was just my husband that took a couple of days off work when she first fell ill. You have done a great job with these pups


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## Martin (Feb 21, 2011)

Your dogs are all adorable. I'm so glad to hear that they're still alive and well. I hope Shadow makes a complete recovery.


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## Lynn5707 (Aug 30, 2014)

Thank you so much for sharing your story and the beautiful pictures. Shadow, Holly and pups are beautiful!


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

cazzy said:


> Oh I know how you feel we are keeping 2 pups as well and haven't picked yet. I have been a little bit more picky with this litter then my last and I think that is because of the hand rearing we did I was always picky anyway but my husband says it is worse this time. We were lucky Tessie didn't need vet treatment like you but we do have all our dogs insured.Even with ours being insured and only special food and supplements for her food and then puppy milk it has still costed us at least 5000kr (about £500 maybe ) insurance does not cover these things normally and on top of all the normal costs of having a litter.Then I took her in for blood tests an ultrasound and X-ray the day before she gave birth to check things as she had trouble last time and lost half her litter which was another 3000kr which our insurance didn't cover either .We are just lucky that I am at home with my dogs anyway it was just my husband that took a couple of days off work when she first fell ill. You have done a great job with these pups


Hi Cazzy,

The reason we don't have pet insurance as a normal spend is the terms and conditions for pet owners in Ireland are so restricted that it begs the question what does the policy actually cover?

One trip to the pet store left me almost €500.00 out of pocket, then we have a crazy system here that allows vets to charge what they like, for example the hepatic food for Shadow is Vet Only (like a prescription for humans) and not available in pet food outlets.

On the first Saturday that Shadow was taking the food we noticed we were running very low on Hepatic food, I made a few phone calls and eventually found a vet with some in stock, they charged me €74.00 for twelve tins, our new supplies come from the UK and we get 24 tins delivered for less than the vet charged for 12.

We were using a good brand of milk for feeding the pups which was costing €34.00 for two Kg, the pet shop ran out of supplies and arranged for one Kg of Lactol charging me €38.00 per Kg.

I was and still am annoyed about this as the retailer we buy in the UK is making a profit (as they should) when we buy from them, I find it very hard to understand why the mark up is so high in Ireland.

They pull on our heart strings when charging these crazy prices after all not many would see their dog go short of the food or medication they need over the cost.

Regards,

Andy


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

Handy Andy said:


> Hi Cazzy,
> 
> The reason we don't have pet insurance as a normal spend is the terms and conditions for pet owners in Ireland are so restricted that it begs the question what does the policy actually cover?
> 
> ...


Yes they do pull on them and vets know this and work it very well. Tessie was given a dry food which cost us 900kr (£90 i only know how to convert our money to pounds) for 14kg bag which we had to get from vets and she was having 400g to start then up to 1200g a day we ended up having to buy 2 bays of just that she had some can food as well which was 29kr (£2.90)a can. Our milk was made by royal canin which is a good brand here and not cheap its the same brand as the food and it costed us 500kr (£50)for 2kg. Our vet prices only normally have about 50 to 100kr (£5-£10) difference between them depending on where you go so its not as bad with that. We just paid 3148kr (£314.08) for all paperwork for our dogs. Next week i am looking at another 3500kr (£350)at least for our pups to have their health check first injection and mirco chip done so we can let them go to their new homes at the weekend. 

I actually order a lot of my dog supplies from England as its cheaper there for me as well. 
I really hope you find some suitable homes for you pups that are close to you.I have 1 pup from our last litter living in the same village as us and its really nice to see she every week i else groom her for her owners.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

*Tips for handling Ascites*

Hi,

Sorry if I posted this before but it could be important to somebody.

The first problems we had with Shadow was she would not eat then she would not drink, of course with a lot of pups to feed food and water are vital.

The ascites made this even more important as she needed the protein to stop the fluid building up, we found that she liked milk over water so she got about 3 litres a day.

We remembered that late in her pregnancy she had been going into the hens coop and taking eggs (we have four hens) so my wife started mixing the raw eggs with the milk, eggs are high in albumin which her system was short of so that meant we had a good combination of food and fluid.

The hepatic food (wet in a can) was something she liked which is one of the reasons we kept going with it, to be honest we would have given her prime steak if she would have eaten it.

By mixing some puppy food with the hepatic and chicken or minced beef we were able to give her the diet she needed.

Even today some seven weeks after the nightmare began she still gets four bowls of food per day, we are slowly reducing the amount of puppy food and adding her own grown up dog food as we want her to stop producing milk.

We have decided to wait until we have new homes for the pups before having new blood tests carried out as only then will her milk have stopped and we will be having her assessed as a "normal" dog.

She is doing everything expected of a Golden Retriever mother at this time, her milk production is very low as the pups don't need it, she allows them a small feed when it suits her and gives out them if they try to take more.

Shadow is an expert in Golden Retriever "Sad Eyes" in the last week to ten days of her pregnancy we did notice her eyes were blood shot, if we combine that with taking the eggs she was actually telling us there was a problem. 

So watch for unusual signs in your dog (any breed) they do tell us things by their behavior.

Feel free to move this post to anywhere on the site people may be searching for guidance on Ascites, our methods were / are largely trial and error but they have worked so far.

Regards,

Andy


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Andy, I'm just glad Shadow has someone taking such good care of her. And im glad she's eating well now.


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## Martin (Feb 21, 2011)

How is Shadow doing now? How are the puppies?


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

Martin said:


> How is Shadow doing now? How are the puppies?


Hi Martin,

Shadow is doing very well getting stronger each day, her coat is recovering nicely and it appears from her last blood test that she is a healthy retriever again.

The pups were given a complete medical and are as any healthy golden retriever puppies should be.

Three have gone to their new homes and have settled with their new families, we decided to wait until after Christmas before visiting because they may remember us and this could cause some confusion.

I know the above may appear silly but our thinking is not to take any chances because we fed them from bottles they were very attached to us.

We have decided to keep two, maybe crazy but we are so attached to them it was the best compromise, any more than two would not be fair to them.

We still have three waiting for their new homes, possibly our fault as we are very particular about who gets them, we insist that the new owners visit them here and are not allowed to take them away with them. 

We visit then deliver them to their homes to make sure they have everything they need, a condition of sale is if anything should happen in the future they must be returned to us.

Thank you for asking,

Andy


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

That is the best news!!!


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## Melakat (Oct 9, 2010)

What an absolutely wonderful story! Shadow you are a great Momma with great Doggie Parents!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Handy Andy said:


> Hi Martin,
> 
> Shadow is doing very well getting stronger each day, her coat is recovering nicely and it appears from her last blood test that she is a healthy retriever again.
> 
> ...


What wonderful news! Does this mean Shadow has made a complete recovery? Did the stress of the pregnancy cause her illness?

So glad to hear the puppies are doing well. It's great that you are being careful with the homes they are going to.

PS I hope you will stick around and start a thread for your two in the puppy section. I would love to watch them grow up.


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## Handy Andy (Aug 11, 2014)

OutWest said:


> What wonderful news! Does this mean Shadow has made a complete recovery? Did the stress of the pregnancy cause her illness?
> 
> So glad to hear the puppies are doing well. It's great that you are being careful with the homes they are going to.
> 
> PS I hope you will stick around and start a thread for your two in the puppy section. I would love to watch them grow up.


My understanding of what happened is this (in lay man's terms).

Most dogs would have miscarried / aborted the litter when their body came under stress from a litter that is too much for their body to cope with, for whatever reason Shadow nurtured her litter at the expense of her own body.

When the litter was born she was using the protein she needed for her own survival to make food (milk) the pups, in one way a noble gesture however if in the wild this would not have worked as she would have died without having completed raising even one of her pups. 

As of today Shadow is a normal female mother who in theory could have another litter of pups in two years which is the recommended waiting period under our dog registration rules, which are (I am open to correction) no female should have more than three litters in her lifetime.

Needless to say Shadow will not be having another litter, the cost to her was almost the biggest price she could have paid, the emotional cost to us cannot be calculated, the financial cost may be totaled in time however I doubt it as this litter was not about money.

We can now see why so many pups offered for sale are raised in sheds, when I collected Shadow she was in a pen (enclosure) and her mother was in a separate pen in the same shed, the way I chose her from the litter was very technical, she was the first pup to run over to me 

From our experience the only way to breed commercially would be to completely separate yourself from the dogs emotionally and view each pup as currency, Pounds, Dollars or Euros. We know we could not do that as we see ourselves responsible for each little life that was born as we made the decision to breed her.

Our vet who still has not submitted his bill for all the services he provided described his work with Shadow and her pups as a labour of love, I have asked him for the bill for a few times as the costs must be rising (for both of us) his answer was typically Irish; Don't worry I'll be using a very sharp pencil when totaling the account" that translates to services at almost cost.

When the last of the pups go to their new homes we will be able to have time to enjoy our new family members, look forward to posting some of the "Kodak" moments of them with Shadow.

Thank you to everyone here for the support we received, it was invaluable in our times of need.

Regards,

Andy.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Great news about Shadow. You seem to have a very understanding vet. Hopefully you will find good homes for the pups you want to sell. I also used to deliver my puppies to be sure their new homes were as I wanted. I could also make suggestions to help the new owners enjoy their pups without stress. Bassets are heavy dogs on short legs and should not have to do stairs, jump off sofas, etc. when young so I used to explain about stair gates, etc.
Looking forward to some photos.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I was just thinking of Shadow and wondering how she is doing?


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

Jennifer1 said:


> I was just thinking of Shadow and wondering how she is doing?


I'm so glad you brought this up, Jennifer. I hope that Handy Andy still looks in on this forum!

NewfieMom


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