# HELP! All of a sudden Mitchell wants to attack my son......



## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

Was your son wearing scent, something he doesn't usually wear?


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Cam's Mom said:


> Was your son wearing scent, something he doesn't usually wear?


No aftershave or scent at all. I suspect what set Mitch off the second time today, was after everyone calmed down, and Mitch got his ear scratches from Matt, Matt got down on the floor to play with him, to show him no hard feelings so to speak, and that is when Mitch went off the second time today, eye to eye contact so to speak, but they have played that way tons of times why now?


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Nancy how old is Mitch?
Neutered?
Has he ever had his Thyroid tested?
Any chance he has an ear infection or bad tooth? (the tusseling of his ears causing pain....just tossing out guesses...)


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

That Is How Scooter Started Acting At The Boys Next Door. They Wre Brats An Wethought They Ahd Done Something T Him. But Turns Out It It Was Low Thyroid And Ocne On Meds, E Did A Complete Turn Around. He Had Just Turned 4, But I Have Founmd Some Dogs Get Low Thyroid Uch Earlier. And Don't Always Think They Have To Gain Weight, Lose Fur, Lose Energy--buck Did Not Have A Single Sympton When Diagonsed At 10 And His Was Worse Than Scooters. I Would Get Mitch Checked For Ear Infection And Low Thyroid,


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

I don't know what to do... Matt just came back in the door to pick up a sweatshirt, and Mitch started all over again, as soon as the door was opened. They normally bark when he comes in, but its a happy bark not like today. And he keeps it up even when I have him by the collar and he isnt stopping until Matt leaves the room or the house as the case maybe.

He had his thyroid tested in March and again in May when he first got sick and he was fine at the time... His teeth look great thanks to the deer antlers, but I have noticed he is rubbing his head on the carpet so I wonder if it is his ears... but why Matt and not everyone or anyone else? No complaints or mention of any trouble at day care either


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Have his thyroid checked again, and if it Low Normal, treat him. Low Normal is LOW for Goldens. Also have him tested for Lymes, and ask the vet to send the test out to a lab. Robbie had lymes but the Snap test at the vets office was negative, we didn't find it until the vet sent the blood out to a lab. 

If they have been wrestling something may have hurt that you aren't aware of. Get really good treats for just your son to give to Mitch, and have him spend time with him that is always positive.


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## allux00 (Mar 2, 2008)

Rusty does this when the boys come in with hats or sunglasses on...I don't know what it could be since you said he had taken those off. I really hope it's nothing medical and gets sorted out soon, I'm sorry I can't be more of a help.


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

Once in a while Rusty will do this. I tell the person to turn their back to him and not give eye contact. When he settles, the person will sit, still not giving eye contact. After the sniffing is over, I have the person, still not looking at him have treats in an open hand, but not reaching. Rusty is VERY sensitive to eye contact in people. He is an insecure dog, not aggressive, but insecure. He can over come with the above steps. Soon he will be playing with the person. Have your son be aware of abrupt moves, or loud tones of voice. Funny, it is with just a person here or there.. not the norm. Who knows what they are thinking.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

OK...I'm going to say something weird here, but this JUST came up on the Newf forum except it was someone's Mother that the dog knew and loved.

A lot of people said to get "Mom" to the doctor for a checkup right away. The dog was sensing something wrong....

Well, they were right. "Mom" was ill and the dog was reacting to the illness. He didn't recognize her scent. Another scent....of illness....had taken it's place. 

Once "Mom" got on medication, and was okay again, the dog went back to normal.

In this instance, "Mom" had no clue she was ill, but the dog knew.

Is your son fighting an illness? 

Or, I'd suspect it has something to do with a foreign scent. Perhaps it's someplace he'd recently been? Around someone who is ill? Anything like that?

A dog's senses don't work in the same way ours do....their strongest sense is smell. Vision is way down on the list compared to humans.

When dogs act this way, they're "reacting" to something. In some cases, it's a human they just don't like, for whatever reason. Of course in this case, I'm sure that's not it. But something's wrong......and your dog may be alerting you to it. I tend to listen to my dogs when they're acting abnormally....they've been amazingly aware of things that fly way under my radar.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This situation would worry me too. A longstanding friendship between your son and the dog just suddenly changes. . .Is is his ears? Maybe your son could come next time with treats and ask Mitch to lie down, sit etc- have a small training session? He should go down for your son in a neutral-mood way right after he growls. Will he respond to a Mitch, Down from your son?


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

That's interesting - your son doesn't have siezures does he? Even though it sounds weird it wouldn't hurt to get your son to have a check up. They DO sense when something is different. Ask your son if he's been feeling different lately. (taking any new medication?)

I remember Jake sitting in front of ME barking and barking at me when I was pregnant. I went into labor that night!


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

This whole thing makes no sense... Matt spent the night at a friends house(poker night), and he and Nina came home this morning and were greeted by the usual friendly barking at the door. Everything as cool, the kids went up stairs so Matt could change his clothes, and as soon as Mitch heard his foot steps on the stairs, the behaviour started all over again!!!!! Matt wasn't even in the room at this point !!!!!!!!
WTH!!!!!!!!! I don't even know who or where to go with this one, where the behaviour isnt occurring all the time or in any particular pattern. Mitch did regurgitate his dinner 4 hours later last night and had a touch of diarrhea, but he is fine physically this am!!!!! 
What do I do now??


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Take him to the Vet for a complete check up. 

Ask Matt if he's feeling okay.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I'd have both Mitch and Matt checked out. For Mitch I'd get thyroid full panel and CBC.
SOMETHING is going on obviously! I'll be praying for all you guys!


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

We took Mitch over to Doggieritaville for the night to diffuse the situation. Tom our trainer will run an evaluation on Mitch, and after we talk to him tomorrow we decide what the next step is. It's insane to watch, its like watching a something go from 0-60. one second he is fine then all of a sudden pow... I'm sure Tom will want to come over to observe the behavior in house to decide what to do next. it was time for Mitch to have some formal training any, but what a way to start.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I was looking for an update to your situation. Did you trainer come over?

I think the suggestions to have the dog and the son checked out by doctors is a good one.


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## Farley Rocks! (Nov 15, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> OK...I'm going to say something weird here, but this JUST came up on the Newf forum except it was someone's Mother that the dog knew and loved.
> 
> A lot of people said to get "Mom" to the doctor for a checkup right away. The dog was sensing something wrong....
> 
> ...


 
Now thats freaky


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Nance, I think you may need to get both Mitch and your son checked out by a doctor before the training route. It doesn't sound like a training issue to me. I hope Steph sees this. It's just too strange.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I had a Golden here that would growl & bark when around anyone that had been drinking any alcohol....he had negative experiences with people that were drunk...not out-and-out cruelty, but rough inappropriate handling.....

I would rule out health issues first before pouring on the training...
If there are underlying health issues then training wont have the same effect....


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## Lady Di (Feb 22, 2008)

Sorry Nancy, no great insight just hope you find out what's going on with Mitch. I know how much you put into this adoption and it breaks my heart that you're having to go through this.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

I made an appt with the vets for tomorrow to rule out any physical issues, but I strongly suspect that other than his usual stuff, he will get a clean bill of health. 
We have ruled out scent based, I gave Mitch a couple of Matt's T-shirts and no reaction at all. 
We now think there is a good chance that it is visual and it might be matt's nearly bald head. His sister cut his hair a bit short a couple of weeks ago, and he usually wears a baseball cap...and Mitch's reaction seems a bit more muted until he takes his cap off...
I just don't know how much more of this I can take... Way too many negative things going in my life right now....


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm betting you will find a medical reason. Lymes infection or low thyroid can cause behaviour changes. 

Deep breath. It will work out. Matt just needs to become Mitch's best friend.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

And wear his hat!

Hang in there Nance!


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> OK...I'm going to say something weird here, but this JUST came up on the Newf forum except it was someone's Mother that the dog knew and loved.


This was the first thought that came to mind because Mitch isn't acting like this to everyone, hence it's doubtful that it's _his_ illness.

Here's another odd thing to throw out there. My girls love my son....but when he's here with his girlfriend they are standoffish from both of them...Pheromones from the human relationship setting them off????


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

We had a interesting night so far. The vet checked Mitch out and found nothing wrong if anything he was abit submissive.
Bob talked briefly to a trainer that SGRR referred us to, and she recommended the NILIF which we had kinda let fall by the wayside. So we gave it a shot tonight. I slipped Matt the leash and the 3 of us walked down the street and Mitch did well, Matt then walked him around to the front of the house by himself and again they did well, came in sat before being unleashed, and because Mitch was being calm, Matt made their dinner and fed him by hand - no problems! they played for a bit, command reward etc, and I was really pleased because it WAS going well. All of a sudden Mitch flipped again...and went after Matt again... I know its going to take time, but sheesh... its like flipping a switch.

The phemones was a good idea but Nina wasn't here 1/2 the time Mitch was freaking out. 

I am going to speak to Mary tonight and hopefully have a plan in place. "Tis a puzzlement"


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## Sadiesdream (Jul 11, 2008)

I notice you haven't found the solution to your problem yet. But I can't help but notice you still havent done what most have asked and thats to have your son checked out by a doctor. You wouldnt have any worries of what they may find do you? It wouldnt hurt for a simple check up for your son. We as humans need them on a normal basis to make sure things are ok. I think its a wise choice to have both your son and Mitch looked at. And I've witnessed this scenario before where a dog knows theres something medically wrong. They do have cancer sniffing dogs, I've actually witnessed watching 2 border collies actually find the cancer on a woman at UT hospital in Knoxville. Theres obviously something different about your son that mitch notices that doesn't seem out fo the normal to all of you. If anything your son spends a couple of bucks and finds out he is in great health, what is there to lose


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Cham, what did the vet check on Mitch? Any blood work? Did he send it out to the lab or do it at his office?


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

:No blood work was done because the vet saw no physical reason for the behaviors other than a higher than average show of submissiveness. He referred us to the Animal Behaviorist at the VCA, thru Tufts. 

Before we do that, we are going to let Mary Farren, the trainer who has worked miracles with some of our other SGRR dogs have a crack at them. A week of dietary changes for Mitch to a lower protein higher carb diet,(which wont hurt his IBS either). then if that doesnt help then she will come and observe their interactions, and work directly with them. 
Unfortunately my own hospitalization the other night interrupted the process so back to square 3-4. He is slightly better, now we have to figure out how to keep Matt from getting so aggravated and make him understand he isnt helping matters with his tantrums. 

Frankly its looking like a major testorone spill is happening in my house and for some reason its connected to the stair case. Maybe we should sell and get a ranch with no stairs...


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

Forgive me, but are you going to have your son checked out as well???- heaven forbid, but it would be nice to be sure he is okay and rule that part of the equation out.

Hugs.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Sienna's Mom said:


> Forgive me, but are you going to have your son checked out as well???- heaven forbid, but it would be nice to be sure he is okay and rule that part of the equation out.
> 
> Hugs.


 
Yes it would be lovely to have him checked out, but unfortunately, I have yet to figure out how to make a 22/23 year old adult male do anything he doesn't believe will help. If you have the secret, it would be a great thing to share.


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

cham said:


> Yes it would be lovely to have him checked out, but unfortunately, I have yet to figure out how to make a 22/23 year old adult male do anything he doesn't believe will help. If you have the secret, it would be a great thing to share.


Ah, well put- my son is just 8 and though he talks back a bit too much, I still do have control- though it doesn't always seem that way  it will be hard when I don't.

Hmmm... maybe you can find out more info on the dogs sensing things? I have a darling husband who dismissing some things I want to try and then if I can find real proof it gets him thinking. Or is it possible to tell him you would help pay for it, so he doesn't have too many excuses but the time it would take?

I do want to tell you I sympathsize on the testosterone issue and your son getting aggravated, but that he won't try to see what else might work- I have that issue a lot between my DH and DS.

Hugs to you on your recent health scare/issues.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Update:

Mitch went into Matt's bedroom this morning on leash, held by me, and he was great! Played with Matt, loving on him getting his ears scratched etc. I called my DH to come and see it, and as soon as he heard Bob's footsteps he turned on Matt! Bob brought the dogs outside, and I had Matt come down, and sit on the couch so that Mitch didnt see or hear him on the stairs. Didnt work, as long as Matt had treats Mitch didnt growl, unfortunately this time Mitch did get an actual nip in this time, and both of them got aggressive, and I ended up getting knocked into the entertainment ctr. Matt stomped up stairs to his man cave, and Mitt went to sleep. 
I emailed Mary, to ask her to come, and see if she can help or does she think things have escalated to the point of a behaviorist. 
I also found a second Acral Lick Granuloma, so something is going on. I just don't know what!!!!!

harder and harder to deal with this. just sent bob and mitch to have him fitted with a prong collar to help to control his fits...


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Obviously, as you've stated....it has something to do with your son. The question, naturally, is "what"? Does this happen mainly after/on a weekend, when kids party more? Is he better during the week when your son isn't going out the evening before because he has work/school? Young men generally DO go out and party on weekends, ... mine sure did and my youngest still does (thank heaven he doesn't live here anymore LOL...those all weekend parties were wearing on us ROFL). Perhaps it's something (like alcohol, which was stated earlier), being released from the body the day AFTER the party or outing, that Mitch is reacting to? 

I think once you get to the bottom of that, you can start addressing the problem.

It sounds like a short stint, or a Tshirt isn't enough to set him off. It takes some chemical to be set off by activity/movement. Maybe when your son isn't "moving" the body chemical is at "rest"? When he starts moving around....it's getting released.

If you could discuss this with your son, even at 23, and encourage him to go in for a physical (to "help the dog" of course)....he might be willing to comply. I'm sure he loves Mitchell too and would like to know what's going on. Especially if this is a new behavior.

That might be the way to approach him. Physicals aren't fun......but a little checkup with a blood test isn't too invasive!


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

*Update*

We had the trainer from the rescue come in a couple of weeks ago, and she dx'ed the problem as fear aggression. Why? We have no idea. When we actually watched the sequence of events, we could see the behaviors happening as she pointed it out. Now the problem is trying to fix it. Unfortunately we have had to resort to a prong collar and the occasional muzzle just to keep Matt safe as we work on the issues. We also dragged out the crate not as punishment, but as a place for him to go to realize he no longer owns the house etc. ( course 1/2 the time Hailey is in it )We are doing the NILIF system, Matt is feeding him, we havent been able to calm him enough to start the hand feeding yet, so I have Matt handling the kibble as he puts in the bowl etc. He does seem to calm down a bit easier, but Matt still can't approach him. He is doing the stand in front of him making himself bigger etc. Because Matt's habit was to come in and go right up to his room Mitch believes his behavior was making the bad man leave so we are working on that also. Matt now has to come in and sit etc. We will give this a couple of months to see, and if necessary will make arrangements for him to go out to Tufts Animal Behavioral Center. One thing we accidently stumbled on the other day, was his reaction to hearing a whistle blow. He was "red zoning" and we couldnt calm him, and out of frustration I grabbed Nina's "rape" whistle from her key chain. I blew that whistle and Mitchell dropped to the floor like a rock... So I went out and bought a couple of whistles to have around and so far they seem to be working better than anything so far, which isnt much. I have a sneaking suspicion that at one time Mitch might have started whistle training... Time will tell.
(And Matt did go to the doctors and he is in perfect shape. )
We have also altered the dogs diet to low protein higher carb... duck and potato right now


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I used a whistle to get Tucker's attention when he first came to live with us. I hope you can resolve this issue soon and without too much stress.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks for the update!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Thanks for the update. Don't get discouraged, it may take a lot of time, but I know this can be worked through. I have a similar problem with my 22 year old son and Robbie, and they have gotten better together. Although we never had the aggression problem, Robbie just ran from him. It has improved over time with effort.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Nance, I give you so much credit for dealing with this in such a patient manner when your whole life has been so stressful. And also to Matt who is being a good "brother " to Mitch. Best wishes to all of you. I sure hope you continue to see progress after all your hard work.


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## Popebendgoldens (May 16, 2008)

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest. I really don't think it is fear aggression. It really sounds like a scent that is setting Mitch off. Did you ever have the blood tests done on Mitch? 

Pat


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

*Update*

Mitchell had a complete physical exam, and complete thyroid panel drawn, and before I could send it to Dr Dodds, I stumbled on a Canine Thyroid Aggression study being done at the Tufts Animal Behavior clinic in conjuction Dr Dodds. I sent the blood work and 9 pg questionnaire to them, hoping that Mitch would be accepted for the study. 
Unfortunately, Mitch's Thyroid numbers are not low or even borderline low enough to qualify.
Looks like we are going to have to pay a visit to the Behaviorists out there Dr Nicholas Dodman, who has recently been seen on Dogs 101 on Animal Planet. 
With everything going on with my knee that is the one hope I was holding on to. Back to square one, but I will not let this go until we find the answer.

btw Matt also had a complete physical and blood work done and he is as healthy as a horse so that is out.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi! I was wondering how things were going. I'm sorry it's still a struggle. 

Was there a time that Mitch was ok with Matt? If you could back track to that point in time and then think about what events happened after that maybe you could brainstorm and figure out what set it off. 

I think a behaviourist is the best next step, I hope they can help you.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

Thankyou for the update and I hope you find the answer soon.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Mitchell and family have an appt with Dr Alice Moon-Fanelli @ Tufts MA, she is the agression specialist on Tuesday, 11-25. Discovered yesterday if I toss a blanket over Mitch he stays quiet and calm while Matt is present. Of course I don't expect that trick to last very long. Every time time I think I stumble on something that helps he learns to ignore it and continue "the game". That is what it seems like at times, but who wants to take that chance...

Wish us luck and an easy solution (yea right:crossfing)
Nancy


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Nancy, fingers crossed that this vet can get to the bottom of Mitch's aggression toward your son (so incredibly frustrating, scary and sad) and that there's a fix!


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## agoldenliferanch (Aug 1, 2008)

Hi...just caught up with this thread and so sympathize with what you're going through! The one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the relationship between Mitch and your other Golden. There could be something going on with the pack order in the house that Mitch is reacting to that may not be readily apparent to us humans. It's also possible that the problem is not your son but something else regarding your other dog and Mitch feels "safe" acting out around your son, but he may not be the cause at all. I have 4 goldens and have learned much about pack order to deal with doggie spats or unwanted behavior.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

agoldenliferanch said:


> Hi...just caught up with this thread and so sympathize with what you're going through! The one thing I haven't seen mentioned here is the relationship between Mitch and your other Golden. There could be something going on with the pack order in the house that Mitch is reacting to that may not be readily apparent to us humans. It's also possible that the problem is not your son but something else regarding your other dog and Mitch feels "safe" acting out around your son, but he may not be the cause at all. I have 4 goldens and have learned much about pack order to deal with doggie spats or unwanted behavior.


Hi,

Mitch and Hailey get along very well and have from day one. Hailey is a mellow golden other than barking when people dare to walk on her sidewalk. Basically a couch potato except for the daily wrestling matches she and Mitch have on the days they don't go to daycare. As far as pack order and Alpha status, to be honest neither one is alpha. They seem to switch off as far as who starts the wrestling matchs, one day its Mitch's paw on Hailey's shoulder that starts it or it could be Hailey getting Mitch wound up. I suspect the pack order is Me, DH, Diana, Hailey who could care less and Mitch and Matt are fighting it out. Altho Matt's new theory is Mitch doesn't seem to bark and snarl at him when no one is home, so he now suspects that for some weird reason Mitch feels he has to protect me and Bob from Matt. Little does that dingbat dog of mine suspect if that is the reason he should be protecting Matt from me!!!!! 
After all I'm Da Momma and boss in the crew, as it should be!


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

Here's an off the wall thought....Matt's cologne? If he's willing, a few days without any or a switch to something he used BEFORE all this started....


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Ok, here is the hopefully the final diagnosis on Mitchell from the Behavioral Specialist at Tufts University. 
Fear aggression and generalized anxiety disorder. First thing we are going to do is continue with the NILIF, meanwhile ramping it up with the gentle leader halter and Matt is too the walking she showed him how to walk Mitch and still remain safe. At this point the reason for Matt being targeted is not really important we may never know the reason, because so much of his background is unknown, and it is obvious he is not a happy dog, with the licking, chewing, he has started spinning this week, and is back to trying to hide under my desk like he did when we first brought him home.
If the behavior modification by itself doesn't work, next step is medication, either Prozac or Zoloft, with the modifications. and if none of those work the final thought is possibly his IBS and gastric issues could be causing the GAD, and thus the aggression, that is when the GI specialists step in. Hopefully that will not come to pass.

One command she strongly recommended was to target Mitch on command to a mat or a particular area and make it a happy place so he doesn't mind going there, and if done right hopefully he will eventually go to the spot himself when he feels uncomfortable or nervous.
My poor baby, we will get him thru this one way or another...:smooch:


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Even though it's not a fix or an easy solution, at least you have a definitive answer and a direction to go. I hope your efforts and consistent handling help him, poor guy.

Is Matt on board with working with him?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Boy is he a lucky boy to have you as his adopter! Good job. Thank you for the updates!


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> Even though it's not a fix or an easy solution, at least you have a definitive answer and a direction to go. I hope your efforts and consistent handling help him, poor guy.
> 
> Is Matt on board with working with him?


So he says... You know what 23 year old men are like. Short attention span much like Mitch... hmmm maybe they are both ADD we can add Ritalin to the mix... LOLOLOL 

Nancy (losing my mind slowly)


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

fostermom said:


> Boy is he a lucky boy to have you as his adopter! Good job. Thank you for the updates!


Thats what I keep telling him!!!! I think he appreciates it, I know I get my face washed when I tell him how lucky he is that I love him. :smooch:


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Zoloft works wonders for anxiety. I've seen what it can do...


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