# Prong collar and Hair loss



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Hi everyone, hoping some of the experienced breeders/dog owners can chime in. As per our breeder and trainer we have been using a prong collar on our 6 month old for the past month, we were taught how to properly use it, and it’s made a world of difference in his walks. Please, no negative commments on this, it’s already been decided in.
Our question is, is losing hair or having broken hair around the area normal? It seems to be on one side and I don’t want his beautiful coat to have a bald spot! We’ve consulted the trainer for sizing, it’s sized correctly. He also only wears it 3 times a day (for walks) 15-20 mins each time, so never longer than an hour total per day. Does this just come with using a prong collar? Anything we can do? Thanks!


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

What kind of collar does he wear when he is not wearing the prong? I have seen coat damage like this from both prong and chain collars. When I was training and competing in obedience in the 70’s and 80’s, it was not unusual to for my dogs to have hair loss and even discoloration from the chain trading collars we used back then. And yes, usually just on one side.


----------



## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Dalia D. said:


> Hi everyone, hoping some of the experienced breeders/dog owners can chime in. As per our breeder and trainer we have been using a prong collar on our 6 month old for the past month, we were taught how to properly use it, and it’s made a world of difference in his walks. Please, no negative commments on this, it’s already been decided in.
> Our question is, is losing hair or having broken hair around the area normal? It seems to be on one side and I don’t want his beautiful coat to have a bald spot! We’ve consulted the trainer for sizing, it’s sized correctly. He also only wears it 3 times a day (for walks) 15-20 mins each time, so never longer than an hour total per day. Does this just come with using a prong collar? Anything we can do? Thanks!


Normal. We stopped using ours partly because Felix was losing fur behind his ears. People have mentioned neck guards or fur savers as an alternative, but we opted to just work obedience on a flat collar.


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Tahnee GR said:


> What kind of collar does he wear when he is not wearing the prong? I have seen coat damage like this from both prong and chain collars. When I was training and competing in obedience in the 70’s and 80’s, it was not unusual to for my dogs to have hair loss and even discoloration from the chain trading collars we used back then. And yes, usually just on one side.


None! At home he’s collarless. I was shocked about the amount of hair loss considering we’ve only been using 1 month and 1 hour a day.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

look closely at the tips of the collar links. Are they machined to be rounded off, or are they just cut off? The machined links are much easier on the fur.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

It looks like you're leaving it on him. Take it off in the car, take it off when you get home. In the house, don't leave a regular flat collar on him.

If you're going these things, you will not have a broken coat like this. If you are doing this, then you aren't using the prong collar correctly. There should be very very slight corrections used and instantly back to a loose leash position. If the dog is pulling or leaving into the prong collar around dogs or people to greet them, then the training isn't at the point to be in those situations regularly.

I've seen to many trainers use a prong collar to "train" a dog, it's not meant for that. It's meant to explain to the dog what is expected of them through micro corrections. A dog should not be waking with a taught leash resulting in a prong collar constantly cinched or gripping the dog. When this happening, this is how you get a broken coat using a prong collar.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

If you bought the collar @ petsmart or the like, it's likely it is the collar. There is a german company whose prongs are as SwampCollie described, HermSprenger- they are much easier on the coat/skin.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I second getting a Herm Sprenger. I use Herm Sprenger chains for conformation as well. Chewy actually has HS prong collars and they really aren’t that expensive. Two day shipping in normal times.


----------



## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

For what it’s worth OP, we used an HS, tried two different sizes to get the best fit, used it to train a loose leash walk, didn’t let him pull with it on, and he never wore it inside. His fur breakage is solely where the prongs end and it becomes the chain portion of the collar. On Felix it was so short he was almost bald, it was as if that portion of the collar was pulling the fur.
Someone did mention he may have been allergic to the metal, but I was able to use the prong to tell him what I wanted and reinforce it. So now on the flat collar, he understands what I’m asking and understands how I’m using leash pressure. We’re still working with it in other areas, but he definitely understands “heel”.

Edit: I want to add that this is the same dog that still wants to fly around the show ring like a maniac without any regard to what I want, so use that information how you wish lol. He's great at home, but as soon as he's in there, it's like handling a little Tasmanian Devil. 

I want to elaborate more on how we used the prong. We ordered it back when he was about 12 months old. I didn't quite know how to use it properly and couldn't fit it well and he just blew through corrections, so we stopped. I decided to start again about a month and a half ago. I tried both the 2.25 and the 3.0 (as people swore the 2.25 delivered a sharper correction), but I had a better response with the 3.0. I took time to establish what I wanted to achieve with it (a loose leash walk and "heel" command for navigating streets and crowds), and took steps on how I was going to train that. At first we used just corrections, but he was not responding well to that, ie; he would listen but it was not good body language. I eventually incorporated treats, homogenized my body language for "heel", and established a release command "let's go" for when the heel was done. After a couple weeks of A LOT of prong work and practice, I had enough confidence to start weaning off the prong. Around this time I had noticed just how short and nearly bald he was behind his ears. I was surprised. So "weaning" off the prong became "must come off" because we had a match in a couple weeks and he needed some fur back there. Much to my happiness and surprise, he was very reliable without it and very engaged. I would probably use it again in the future to modify want I want, but it would need to be for very short periods at a time.


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

I have always used prong collars for training our Golden's. All of our trainers use and recommend these collars. Regardless, who your get them from always feel the ends of the prongs, as noted above! They should be as smooth as a babies behind. If not use Emory paper to smooth them out. 

I use only one type of collar. They size themselves, have no latch to come unhooked and have no prongs in the throat area. you can find them at www.lolalimited.net...

Good Luck


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Swampcollie said:


> look closely at the tips of the collar links. Are they machined to be rounded off, or are they just cut off? The machined links are much easier on the fur.


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> If you bought the collar @ petsmart or the like, it's likely it is the collar. There is a german company whose prongs are as SwampCollie described, HermSprenger- they are much easier on the coat/skin.


Hi! If you look at the new pictures I posted you’ll see the collar, it is a HermSprenger from a training facility.


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> It looks like you're leaving it on him. Take it off in the car, take it off when you get home. In the house, don't leave a regular flat collar on him.
> 
> If you're going these things, you will not have a broken coat like this. If you are doing this, then you aren't using the prong collar correctly. There should be very very slight corrections used and instantly back to a loose leash position. If the dog is pulling or leaving into the prong collar around dogs or people to greet them, then the training isn't at the point to be in those situations regularly.
> 
> I've seen to many trainers use a prong collar to "train" a dog, it's not meant for that. It's meant to explain to the dog what is expected of them through micro corrections. A dog should not be waking with a taught leash resulting in a prong collar constantly cinched or gripping the dog. When this happening, this is how you get a broken coat using a prong collar.


There are a lot of assumptions in your response. I absolutely do not ever have it on him in the car. In the car I have a harness that attaches to a seat belt, that’s for car use only. I always bring the prong collar in my bag seperately and put it on him when we arrive at our destination.

In the house he wears nothing at all, we have a fully fenced yard, so when he does wanna go for a quick pee we just open the back door, he does his business and comes back in- no collar. We only use the prong collar, like I said in my OP, for his 3 main walks a day. I did forget to include our 30 min. training sessions once a week, he is wearing it at those times. 

In terms of our walks, he heels pretty well and doesn’t continually pull with this. He would pull if he saw a flying leaf, or rabbit, but that’s just for a second. 

I attached pictures of the collar, I bought the herm sprenger stainless steel.


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

3goldens2keep said:


> I have always used prong collars for training our Golden's. All of our trainers use and recommend these collars. Regardless, who your get them from always feel the ends of the prongs, as noted above! They should be as smooth as a babies behind. If not use Emory paper to smooth them out.
> 
> I use only one type of collar. They size themselves, have no latch to come unhooked and have no prongs in the throat area. you can find them at www.lolalimited.net...
> 
> Good Luck


Thank you for your help, can you take a look at the new pictures I posted and tell me if the ends of those prongs are good? Funny you recommended lolalimited... those are the ones my breeder said to use. I just bought the herm sprenger pictures because it was faster/easier since I was already at the training facility and the trainer helped us size it.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Dalia D. said:


> There are a lot of assumptions in your response. I absolutely do not ever have it on him in the car. In the car I have a harness that attaches to a seat belt, that’s for car use only. I always bring the prong collar in my bag seperately and put it on him when we arrive at our destination.
> 
> In the house he wears nothing at all, we have a fully fenced yard, so when he does wanna go for a quick pee we just open the back door, he does his business and comes back in- no collar. We only use the prong collar, like I said in my OP, for his 3 main walks a day. I did forget to include our 30 min. training sessions once a week, he is wearing it at those times.
> 
> ...


No assumptions at all, I said IF you were doing those things it could lead to what you were seeing. Trying to help and it's not uncommon for less than great trainers using a prong collar incorrectly. Asking for help in an online forum means people will asking the basics first to rule things out. How will you get help in this forum if you aren't going to listen to others? Seems counter productive.

I have used Herm Sprenger prong collars for over 10 maybe 15 years or so and before them a regular prong and never had that happen. Usually that is a sign of over use of the collar as in constant/frequent pressure. The only other thing I can think of is the dog is having a reaction to something that goes on his neck so maybe the type of flat collar being used?


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Dalia D. said:


> Thank you for your help, can you take a look at the new pictures I posted and tell me if the ends of those prongs are good? Funny you recommended lolalimited... those are the ones my breeder said to use. I just bought the herm sprenger pictures because it was faster/easier since I was already at the training facility and the trainer helped us size it.


I used the same collar you are using, when I first started using prong collars for training. The specific 'prong' you show in the pictures you attached, looks smooth, but sometimes the coating on the tip of the prong does not get fully applied...the only way to be sure is to feel all prong ends any roughness must be fixed. Another way to check is with old nylon stocking..drag them over the tips, if you have any rough edges they will snag on the prong.

I like the Lola collars as they are easier to take on and off, and no adjusting required. The latch also cannot come off when the dog is wearing the collar. In contrast, the 'latches' on the regular collars are not only difficult to put on a young, wiggling, dog, but they do come unlatched at times (dangerous). 

Regardless, sounds like you are on a good path....enjoy!


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

For younger pups I prefer the nylon prong collar with blunt tips.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

No help, but horrified about using a prong on a 6 month old. I don't understand any reason or situation that would require the risk of injuring a growing dog's neck.

The look of the dog's neck - I'd compare to dogs who wear zap collars for invisible fencing all the time.


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Megora said:


> No help, but horrified about using a prong on a 6 month old. I don't understand any reason or situation that would require the risk of injuring a growing dog's neck.
> 
> The look of the dog's neck - I'd compare to dogs who wear zap collars for invisible fencing all the time.


Well, I can tell you that as a first time big breed owner I am going above and beyond to learn how to train my dog and do what’s best for him and us. I’ve done obedience level 1- 12 sessions, and I can tell you that he is more disciplined then some of the older dogs I’ve seen. He is 56lbs and is he sees a bunny or squirrel I’m going down to the ground if it wasn’t for the prong collar. I was also apprehensive about a prong collar but again, the trainer recommended it as safer for him because he was choking himself out on a flat collar and 100x worse on a harness. My breeder who is highly recommended also was very much ok with it when I double checked with her. There is research that shows prong collars have the least amount of injury to the neck in comparison to a flat collar of choke collars. I can assure you he is NOT wearing a zap collar. I don’t plan on having him wear this forever, but in the meantime as he’s learning it’s proved to be very effective in correcting certain things.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prongs are training collars. I've used them on adults (over 12 months old, not a young dog). The idea for using prongs is to really fine tune response and focus while working with the dogs. That's not going for walks where the dog is looking around and you are daydreaming. That's training sessions where you are working on building focus and connection with your dog. And a correction with a dog wearing a prong is a finger squeeze. You are not holding on for dear life, which when people habitually use a prong collar when walking their dogs - they don't realize that they or the dog are constantly pulling at the prong. That's pressure digging at your dog's neck nonstop during a walk. So the point of my comment is by using a prong for multiple short walks a day for a combined hour's worth of walking, the collar chewed away at the dog's neck to the same extent as a dog wearing a tight IF collar nonstop/al day/every day.

56 pounds is nothing I worry about. It's literally nothing. I walk 3 dogs at once and that's like 68 + 69 + 77 for a combined 214 pounds, And they are all wearing regular nylon collars. So I don't understand why a 56 pound dog would drag anyone if they are at least double that weight.

Rather than put a prong collar on your dog to walk with - I would just find a trainer who would work with you on training your dog how to walk nicely regardless of what he's wearing. There's pretty simple corrections like "make like a tree" if you balk about doing a pop or gotcha correction.


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

I wonder how those that do not like or use pinch collars, can you comment? Is it possible you have not worked with trainers who use them? I see far to many dogs that have not been trained to heel properly that are pulling their owners around the block! This is not good on the pup either, and if they get lose, they will run off. 

I understand that many people train their dogs without using prong collars or e collars, but many of us choose to use them. Like any training if done properly under the supervision of a professional trainer, these collars are safe and harmless. I can tell by how many 'non experience/trained users comments' that they actually have limited knowledge how these collars are used! Also, they pinch the skin, the do not 'stick' the skin! A good trainer will put the collar on your forearm to help the owners understand how they work and how they are properly used...


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

3goldens2keep said:


> I wonder how those that do not like or use pinch collars, can you comment?


I will comment. I don't use a pinch collar first because our training school offers an excellent and very successful course on loose-leash walking, making aversive training aids unnecessary, and second, because pinch collars are illegal in the province where I live. They have been "strongly discouraged" since 2014, when the Ministry of Agriculture introduced provisions allowing fines for people who misused pinch collars (and "shock" collars) and they were made illegal early this year.

The problem has never been with the small number of people who use them properly; it has always been with the much larger number of people who use them incorrectly - buying them online with no fitting guidance and no training on how to use them, leaving them on all the time, administering strong "punishments" with the collars, etc.

So I don't use them (a) because I don't see the need and (b) because they are illegal where I live.


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

ceegee said:


> I will comment. I don't use a pinch collar first because our training school offers an excellent and very successful course on loose-leash walking, making aversive training aids unnecessary, and second, because pinch collars are illegal in the province where I live. They have been "strongly discouraged" since 2014, when the Ministry of Agriculture introduced provisions allowing fines for people who misused pinch collars (and "shock" collars) and they were made illegal early this year.
> 
> The problem has never been with the small number of people who use them properly; it has always been with the much larger number of people who use them incorrectly - buying them online with no fitting guidance and no training on how to use them, leaving them on all the time, administering strong "punishments" with the collars, etc.
> 
> So I don't use them (a) because I don't see the need and (b) because they are illegal where I live.


That's a good reason not to use them, being illegal in Canada! Same way on guns, if I recall correctly! 
Although, we are good neighbors, we do have different forms of Government. And that's a debate I do not want to start...


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

3goldens2keep said:


> That's a good reason not to use them, being illegal in Canada! Same way on guns, if I recall correctly!
> Although, we are good neighbors, we do have different forms of Government. And that's a debate I do not want to start...


Pinch collars aren't illegal everywhere in Canada, but they're illegal in my province (Quebec). Guns aren't illegal, but sale and possession are very highly regulated. Not wanting to start a debate either, just stating the facts in response to your question!

I will add that dogs over 40 lbs. now have to wear a harness here when walked in public, and the leash has to be attached to the harness. This renders any debate on types of collar irrelevant for us.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ceegee said:


> Pinch collars aren't illegal everywhere in Canada, but they're illegal in my province (Quebec). Guns aren't illegal, but sale and possession are very highly regulated. Not wanting to start a debate either, just stating the facts in response to your question!
> 
> I will add that dogs over 40 lbs. now have to wear a harness here when walked in public, and the leash has to be attached to the harness. This renders any debate on types of collar irrelevant for us.


That's cwappy. 

Scratch Quebec off a list of places to even visit with my dogs.... why would you let a lot of pinheads running your government who might not even own dogs tell you how to train and manage your dogs? Yikes!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

3goldens2keep said:


> I wonder how those that do not like or use pinch collars, can you comment? Is it possible you have not worked with trainers who use them? I see far to many dogs that have not been trained to heel properly that are pulling their owners around the block! This is not good on the pup either, and if they get lose, they will run off.


1. Prong collars don't train the dogs to heel. I have trained with many OTCH trainers who use prong collars - and they serve a very specific purpose. These are people who have drilled it into my head that you do not put a training collar on your dog if you are not going to be deliberately training your dog in a training session. And training sessions do not stretch out for hours while using these collars. Most of us when we are training our dogs at home, it's multiple 10-15 minute training sessions spread out through the day.


2. Heeling, quite honestly to me means something different than a waddling dog waddling next to his waddling owner. There's an attitude, finesse, and precision which I expect of my heeling dogs. It's different from plain old walking the dog. If I'm walking the dogs around the block, I expect the dogs to be looking around and daydreaming as much as I am. ;_) Crappiest trainers that I've seen or witnessed are those gawdawful folks to are yanking and barking at their poor dogs trying to get them to HEEL while walking around the block. Walks should be enjoyed by the dogs. They are not supposed to be working.

Heeling has its uses when you are walking into a store or another public place that may have people, dogs, etc...

3. If your dog is likely to run off if he gets loose.... you have an untrained dog.


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Megora said:


> 1. Prong collars don't train the dogs to heel. I have trained with many OTCH trainers who use prong collars - and they serve a very specific purpose. These are people who have drilled it into my head that you do not put a training collar on your dog if you are not going to be deliberately training your dog in a training session. And training sessions do not stretch out for hours while using these collars. Most of us when we are training our dogs at home, it's multiple 10-15 minute training sessions spread out through the day.
> 
> 
> 2. Heeling, quite honestly to me means something different than a waddling dog waddling next to his waddling owner. There's an attitude, finesse, and precision which I expect of my heeling dogs. It's different from plain old walking the dog. If I'm walking the dogs around the block, I expect the dogs to be looking around and daydreaming as much as I am. ;_) Crappiest trainers that I've seen or witnessed are those gawdawful folks to are yanking and barking at their poor dogs trying to get them to HEEL while walking around the block. Walks should be enjoyed by the dogs. They are not supposed to be working.
> ...


The 'Dream' world you live in, is something I never hope to experience. Since you have no experience with using a pinch collar to train, you obviously have no clue about that process! I will stop here vs. go on about your comments...


----------



## Ontariodogsitter (Feb 23, 2020)

Interesting, I have trained our own dogs and foster dogs with several different trainers, in several different facilities using different training techniques (many have come and gone in the last 50 years) and not one ever suggested a prong collar, although I personally don't have a problem with people using them in very specific circumstances, can't imagine using it unless all other methods to train have failed.


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Megora said:


> Scratch Quebec off a list of places to even visit with my dogs.... why would you let a lot of pinheads running your government who might not even own dogs tell you how to train and manage your dogs? Yikes!


Actually they set up a commission composed of breeders, trainers and other pet industry "experts", to make recommendations. There had been a series of very serious biting incidents and maulings over a period of months (including a child who lost her face, and a woman who was mauled and killed by her neighbour's dog) and the public was demanding some kind of legislation. The principal recommendation to come out of the process was that people did not want breed-specific legislation, but preferred measures applicable generally to all dog owners, designed to foster responsible dog ownership. The outcome was a law that defines the term "dangerous dog" and sets very significant fines and other consequences, including registration of all aggressive incidents and mandatory euthanasia (of the dog) for serious or repetitive incidents. It also requires larger dogs to wear a harness when walked in public.

I personally don't like the harness requirement because my dogs are trained and can walk safely on a flat collar. But our poodle was once almost killed in an attack, when a large dog snapped its collar and came after him, so I get where the requirement comes from, even though I don't think it actually solves the problem. I would have preferred mandatory attendance at a dog training school. And yes, it does bother me that I'm being told how to manage my dogs in public - but on the other hand, the vast, vast majority of dog owners need someone to tell them what to do because they don't have a clue and they don't care. Like almost all legislation, this one is designed to manage the problems caused by an irresponsible minority, and it's the responsible majority who suffer the consequences. It's of some consolation that the severe fines for possession of a dangerous dog (many thousands of dollars) do seem to have had a positive effect, in that there are fewer serious maulings these days. As for the training collars (shock and prong), I've also witnessed enough truly awful examples of what uninformed people do with them to conclude that these items shouldn't be widely available to the uninitiated, at least around here.


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Ontariodogsitter said:


> Interesting, I have trained our own dogs and foster dogs with several different trainers, in several different facilities using different training techniques (many have come and gone in the last 50 years) and not one ever suggested a prong collar, although I personally don't have a problem with people using them in very specific circumstances, can't imagine using it unless all other methods to train have failed.


Again, as I have already stated, if you have never worked with a trainer that uses a prong collar, then you have no idea how or why the work! You can't imagine, because you assume you know how they are used in training. By your last comment it is clear you do not...

I too have tried other methods, including using 'clickers'! I found, especially for field dogs that eventually are whistle trained to take hand signals, the use of a prong collar lays a good foundation for field training. It is not the only way, but it is a way, one that I think works best for the dog and the trainer...especially if you are planning on force fetching your dog and then transitioning him/her to an e colllar... And Yep I know that will really bring the Indians out of the bushes...


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

I’m adding these two pictures again. What we’ve learned so far: I have the “good one” herm sprenger. I have the correct finishing on the edge of the prongs- smooth. I was brainstorming, maybe he’s loosing hair because of the prong size? Again, my trainer picked it out so that it should be correct, but I know they have different sizes like 2mm/3mm, if he’s 56 lbs. does this look like the right size?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

3goldens2keep said:


> The 'Dream' world you live in, is something I never hope to experience. Since you have no experience with using a pinch collar to train, you obviously have no clue about that process! I will stop here vs. go on about your comments...


Very least I hope *you *can experience is putting some effort into reading comprehension....?

I have used prong collars to train with - and see them as training collars. 

People use them as a crutch so they don't actually have to train their dogs. <= Many dogs that's all they have to do. Some dogs get used to them and will pull with prongs - risking actual injury. 

Many people started using prongs because they wanted to cut corners in training and length of time it takes to build responsiveness with some young dogs. So instead of taking 3 years to get a dog ready for trials, you had people wanting to have the dogs ready in 1 year. 6-12 month old boy goldens especially, brains are out the window sometimes when there's distractions around. A prong collar can get that dog's attention quite well, assuming that they haven't learned to ignore the prong.

What bothers me more than anything is people who use them as a crutch.... they have wonderful dogs who they can't wean the prong collars off. Which it's a brick wall blocking their way forward. Keep in mind, you can't bring a dog on AKC show/trial grounds wearing a prong.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ceegee said:


> Actually they set up a commission composed of breeders, trainers and other pet industry "experts", to make recommendations.


But understand that is not always the best case scenario. 

Let's say you have a bunch of people who breed Cane Corsos and want to continue breeding and selling the dogs to anyone? Those people get to sit on a commission and advise that these dogs wear harnesses in public and that will fix everything? No it won't! Haha. 

Likewise, there are trainers and pet industry "experts" who if you think about this one Office episode where Michael and Dwight drove a car into a lake because they were following GPS instructions? That's how many people are when it comes to training. Rather than adapt or use FORBIDDEN training methods to work with a dog, they will keep using failing methods to train that dog and just blame the dog in the end....  

Issue with harnesses is dogs still pull while wearing them. And most dog attacks happen because (1) the dog was let loose in a dog park, (2) the dog went stray or (3) somebody visited the dogs owners. It's not somebody taking a walk and surprise - bad things happened....


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

So much misunderstanding of the prong collars. Smh


----------



## Dunmar (Apr 15, 2020)

Let's try to focus back to the original question.


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Dunmar said:


> Let's try to focus back to the original question.


Haha thanks, are you a teacher?... that was very teacher like! Love it 😂

I spoke with my breeder and she seems to think we may have had the collar a bit loose and low. We took out a link, it seems tight now, like we can’t move it around at all to the left or right when already on. 

I’m thinking this should help, I’m also ordering the Lolalimited as it came recommended now from 3 different people. Thanks for the helpful feedback to those who tried to help. I know this can be a touchy subject but let’s not be quick to judge another dog owner, I am doing the absolute best I can by my dog, maybe the same or more than my human children lol...his training sessions lasts just as long as tae kwon do or swimming and are more expensive Hahha. Everyone has a different way and that’s ok!

Dalia


----------



## Dunmar (Apr 15, 2020)

Dalia D. said:


> Haha thanks, are you a teacher?... that was very teacher like! Love it 😂
> 
> I spoke with my breeder and she seems to think we may have had the collar a bit loose and low. We took out a link, it seems tight now, like we can’t move it around at all to the left or right when already on.
> 
> ...


Lol, not a teacher but I just saw this going all over the place and off topic.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> So much misunderstanding of the prong collars. Smh


As somebody who actually trains for higher level obedience using tools like prongs, I'm SMH at people defending casual and continuous use of these collars on YOUNG dogs. That is not off topic.

The reason why tools are linked with injuries and become banned in some areas or countries is because of harm caused by casual and continuous use of these same tools by some people in cases, places, situations, that are inappropriate.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I've been training dogs for 20 years. Never said casual or continuous use. That is what you are saying. I said it's not meant to train but used for micro adjustments to explain to the dog what you expect from them. 

If you train the dog from 8 weeks you'll never need a prong collar in general. Most people don't start then and pups develop bad habits.

But when you use a prong correctly (and there are a lot of trainers who don't know) there is no reason a "YOUNG" dog can't be fired with a prong collar.

The point is being educated in how to use one and what it's actually meant for. It's not to pop or yank or cinch to deliver pain for correction. And understanding how it works should help people understand this. It punches, not pokes or gouges. It's the same sensation the moms use to pinch the neck and pull down for a correcting. It's how dogs teach pups.

In a lot of cases, a prong collar is less harmful than a flat collar and certainly a choke collar. Tools are linked with injuries because people a morons and just buy something and use it without being trained and educated on it. Flat collars are soft and safe and think it's no problem if they pull, yet that leads to collapsed tracheas. Prong collars are slight tension and instant slack for no pressure plus limited slip as well.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

In a lot of cases, a prong collar is less harmful than a flat collar and certainly a choke collar. Tools are linked with injuries because people a morons and just buy something and use it without being trained and educated on it. Flat collars are soft and safe and think it's no problem if they pull, yet that leads to collapsed tracheas. Prong collars are slight tension and instant slack for no pressure plus limited slip as well.


^^^^ Eric, go back 20 years and we never heard of collapsed tracheas except for pencil neck type breeds. Like breeders of collies, borzois, similar breeds with narrow and delicate necks would adamantly tell all pet people that they should not use regular collars with these breeds. Part of that was because they have small skulls and can slip collars easier, but also I suspect because these people were seeing more injuries in their breeds. 

For people to say the same about golden retrievers - it's looking past the fact that these dogs were bred to have strong necks (so they can carry heavy birds). 

The rest of what you say, I don't necessarily disagree. It's just I'm alarmed at Pet Store trainers selling collars to puppy owners and telling them to go forth and use them. That leads to dogs pulling on these things... or owners pulling. Or both.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

There was collapsed tracheas back in the 90s, further than 20 years ago. The only time they came off flat collars was with a diagnosis of a collapsed trachea. 

I agree with kids as PetSmart "trainers" just telling people to use a prong collar without proper training and these type trainer have no idea how to use them half the time. I regularly, stopping by a PetSmart having their trainers ask me how handle certain situations or behaviors and it's not very good look. They will pull me in to a class they are having to have my dog demonstrate certain trainings. 

I don't think we're necessarily saying different things. I am just saying if know how to use and know what they are really for by a trainer training the owners... prong collars are never an issue even as puppies (though I only recommend 5-6 months and above)


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Just to be clear I did not use a Petsmart or Petco trainer. This is a legit training facility on Long Island. They train all breeds but specialize in big breeds. Their trainers are people who test for the CGC and other titles.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> There was collapsed tracheas back in the 90s, further than 20 years ago.


Just gotta say, you made me feel very old there. LOLOLOL. 

I started training back then as a preteen and teenager in the 90's.


----------



## Blu1004 (Jul 23, 2020)

Dalia D. said:


> Just to be clear I did not use a Petsmart or Petco trainer. This is a legit training facility on Long Island. They train all breeds but specialize in big breeds. Their trainers are people who test for the CGC and other titles.


We also use 2.25 mm herm sprenger collar for training and no issues. Perhaps, he might be sensitive to nickel in stainless steel? I believe there is a prong collar made with a different metal for this reason.


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Blu1004 said:


> We also use 2.25 mm herm sprenger collar for training and no issues. Perhaps, he might be sensitive to nickel in stainless steel? I believe there is a prong collar made with a different metal for this reason.


Hi! Wow so many responses and no one mentioned that... but wouldn’t the “reaction” be all over? It’s only on his right where the chain mechanism is moving.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

After training dogs for a long time my experience was that issues with fur usually related to sharp edges on the collar or brittle coats. dogs with brittle coats will suffer breakage of the fur where the collar lies. sharp edges on the collar are easy, just replace the collar. Coat condition issues are more complicated to deal with.


----------



## Jade k. (Apr 18, 2021)

Dalia D. said:


> Hi everyone, hoping some of the experienced breeders/dog owners can chime in. As per our breeder and trainer we have been using a prong collar on our 6 month old for the past month, we were taught how to properly use it, and it’s made a world of difference in his walks. Please, no negative commments on this, it’s already been decided in.
> Our question is, is losing hair or having broken hair around the area normal? It seems to be on one side and I don’t want his beautiful coat to have a bald spot! We’ve consulted the trainer for sizing, it’s sized correctly. He also only wears it 3 times a day (for walks) 15-20 mins each time, so never longer than an hour total per day. Does this just come with using a prong collar? Anything we can do? Thanks!


I'm in the same boat, were you ever able to find a solution?


----------



## Dalia D. (Apr 11, 2020)

Jade k. said:


> I'm in the same boat, were you ever able to find a solution?


Hi! So it’s gotten a lot better, naturally grew back in... we sent pictures to our breeder and she suggested taking out one link, making it sit higher and tighter by the ears. This seemed to help. It’s not perfect yet on that side but a lot better!


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

I can see some here, have no real understanding of Prong Collars....They do not have sharp points on the end of the prongs....as suggested above! 

They points are smooth and round as a babies behind. When I was first trained on using a pinch collar (proper name for these collars, as they are designed to pinch), our trainer told us to carefully inspect the tips of the prongs, to make sure they are in fact rounded and smooth. He stated that sometimes in the manufacturing process a prong can be unfinished. This obviously would cause an irritation on the pup at that point, so you might inspect the prongs, just in case. If you find a bad one, get a new link and replace the bad one.

By the way I have been getting my pinch collars from a company named Lola's Unique Dog Collars and Leashes, LLC for years. They make fabric covered prong collars with a clip release. They are easier to use, you can get one to your liking. Also when the dog has it on, know one can tell it is a pinch collar, good for walks or when you are outside training, people won't jump to the conclusion that you are being mean to your dog. 

You can check these out at _lolalimited.net_

Good Luck


----------



## Jade k. (Apr 18, 2021)

Dalia D. said:


> Hi! So it’s gotten a lot better, naturally grew back in... we sent pictures to our breeder and she suggested taking out one link, making it sit higher and tighter by the ears. This seemed to help. It’s not perfect yet on that side but a lot better!


I'm glad it's getting better! And thank you, I'll give that a try as well


----------



## Jade k. (Apr 18, 2021)

Jade k. said:


> I'm glad it's getting better! And thank you, I'll give that a try as well


So i believe it's the nickel in the collar causing an allergic reaction, upon reading other owner's experiences. Apparently herm sprenger makes one without nickel, but it's pricey. they do have those rubber prong collars on amazon, but i cant imagine they would work as well as an herm sprenger.....


----------



## donniesaint7777 (Jan 5, 2022)

Prism Goldens said:


> If you bought the collar @ petsmart or the like, it's likely it is the collar. There is a german company whose prongs are as SwampCollie described, HermSprenger- they are much easier on the coat/skin.


I use a herm sprenger prong collar and it did the same thing and we only put on for walks ... it usually on longer hair dogs I am seeing from my research... also dogs with lots of energy... I did see a prong collar with a plastic piece in front of it to maybe hold the fur out of the prongs when it contracts ...don't know if that's what it's for but ya something to block the fur from getting pulled when it contracts would work I would think..


----------



## donniesaint7777 (Jan 5, 2022)

Dalia D. said:


> Hi everyone, hoping some of the experienced breeders/dog owners can chime in. As per our breeder and trainer we have been using a prong collar on our 6 month old for the past month, we were taught how to properly use it, and it’s made a world of difference in his walks. Please, no negative commments on this, it’s already been decided in.
> Our question is, is losing hair or having broken hair around the area normal? It seems to be on one side and I don’t want his beautiful coat to have a bald spot! We’ve consulted the trainer for sizing, it’s sized correctly. He also only wears it 3 times a day (for walks) 15-20 mins each time, so never longer than an hour total per day. Does this just come with using a prong collar? Anything we can do? Thanks!


. I did see a prong collar with a plastic piece in front of it to maybe hold the fur out of the prongs when it contracts ...don't know if that's what it's for but ya something to block the fur from getting pulled when it contracts would work I would think..


----------



## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Prism Goldens said:


> HermSprenger- they are much easier on the coat/skin.


Don’t have an opinion on coat damage bc my only experience with a prong was on a Dalmatian. But the Sprenger prong collar I used was certainly of high quality.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

This evening I saw a dog handler lift a dog wearing a prong collar up on his hind legs. He definitely settled down right away, but I don't think I would ever do that. Is this the proper use of a prong collar? Thanks!


----------



## sam34 (9 mo ago)

michaeldwilson said:


> This evening I saw a dog handler lift a dog wearing a prong collar up on his hind legs. He definitely settled down right away, but I don't think I would ever do that. Is this the proper use of a prong collar? Thanks!


No.


----------



## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

michaeldwilson said:


> This evening I saw a dog handler lift a dog wearing a prong collar up on his hind legs. He definitely settled down right away, but I don't think I would ever do that. Is this the proper use of a prong collar? Thanks!


Of course not, would you do this even with a regular collar on a dog? Of course not! Prong collars are used for training. Just like when using a regular collar, when training heal, sit, down, etc. a tug on the collar helps the dog understand what is expected by the trainer. With a prong collar the same procedure is used, but the prongs, pinch the skin, and give the dog a clear message what is expected. It is a tug, not a jerk or a "hang the beast" as you viewed by some unethical individual...!


----------



## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

michaeldwilson said:


> This evening I saw a dog handler lift a dog wearing a prong collar up on his hind legs. He definitely settled down right away, but I don't think I would ever do that. Is this the proper use of a prong collar? Thanks!


Absolutely not!


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks for the confirmation!


----------



## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I’m glad I didn’t see that. Awful.

The alternative metal is Curogan. I bought one for Logan because I read the others could discolor the hair. The metal is softer and didn’t seem as durable in the 2.25 size, so I opted for the next size up — 3.something. Logan only uses his prong in obedience class and it’s basically just a necklace at this point, but there’s been no noticeable hair breakage. I’m glad placing it higher up helped.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeldwilson said:


> This evening I saw a dog handler lift a dog wearing a prong collar up on his hind legs. He definitely settled down right away, but I don't think I would ever do that. Is this the proper use of a prong collar? Thanks!


Devils advocate question here.... 

Let's say you are in a class with people and somebody does what you describe here at the start of class. Very strong correction for a dog that was out of control (I assume that was the issue). Dog immediately gets the point and settles down. He is solid gold GOOD in class and is rewarded with praise, treats, affection, and the rest is when these dogs get affirmation in any way that they were RIGHT, you see them light up and get more enthusiastic about what they are doing. Whatever that is. 

Compare that to something I saw in a class earlier this week. Dog was on a nylon martingale. Bouvier, so think very big, stubborn (very stubborn), and generally high energy and high stress potential breeds. There was a bitch in season in the class and while the owner denied this was the issue, I believe it was. The dog generally has some problems with being very excitable and difficult for his owner to control, but in this case the dog was lunging at any fast moving dogs gaiting past him, barking, panting, vocalizing - and generally was just a huge mess. 

Watching behind this trainer, I felt bad for the dog because I could see his anxiety levels going through the roof because he was over-stimulated in this class combined with his handler yanking him around, pinching his mouth as a correction for barking (until he yelped), etc... Lot of corrections that by themselves were not as harsh as yanking a dog up and hanging him on a prong collar, but many corrections that stretched out over an hour and just made the dog stressed and miserable. And he was shutting down BAD. The trainer ended up leaving early.... 

I would never yank my dog up in the air and "hang him" by the collar. I believe I would be more likely to grab my dog up by the scruff and deliver a harsh correction that way if the reason merited it (my current dogs never do anything that bad, but let's say they did something). My thing with corrections is I want them to be CLEAR and CLEARLY COMMUNICATED to the dog.... and followed up or paired with praise and positive handling. 

Many dog trainers who are new to training, etc.... they NAG their dogs, they HARASS their dogs, and even some cross the boundary and ABUSE their dogs. Even people who do not ever once use a conventional correction with their dogs, you can see by their manner and expression in their face and voice that they are angry and upset - and this goes down the leash to the dogs and training becomes negative, unpleasant, and unbearable for the dogs who shut down. These are the dogs who lag or have glazed over eyes, etc. The dogs are translated to being stubborn or lacking brains or talent, but there you go.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Megora said:


> Devils advocate question here....
> 
> Let's say you are in a class with people and somebody does what you describe here at the start of class. Very strong correction for a dog that was out of control (I assume that was the issue). Dog immediately gets the point and settles down. He is solid gold GOOD in class and is rewarded with praise, treats, affection, and the rest is when these dogs get affirmation in any way that they were RIGHT, you see them light up and get more enthusiastic about what they are doing. Whatever that is.
> 
> ...


The dog was not responding to a command to settle down in front of a stranger. The dog was overly excited. Correct me if I'm wrong, so to speak, I feel like the better approach would be to make the dog heel in a different direction, and then come back and try again. The handler wanted a completely correct response at that moment. I'm ok with working with a dog over weeks to bring him/her to that level. I'm not a professional by a long stretch, but that's how I would prefer doing it.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeldwilson said:


> The dog was not responding to a command to settle down in front of a stranger. The dog was overly excited. Correct me if I'm wrong, so to speak, I feel like the better approach would be to make the dog heel in a different direction, and then come back and try again. The handler wanted a completely correct response at that moment. I'm ok with working with a dog over weeks to bring him/her to that level. I'm not a professional by a long stretch, but that's how I would prefer doing it.


But the reason why people use tools like prongs period, etc.... is because trainers may want a completely correct response at that moment. I'm not disputing that being good enough for some people or dogs nor am I saying that your preferred method is completely wrong or useless, but am simply pointing out that if that person delivered a correction (big or small, big in this case) which got through to his dog and his dog was perfect afterwards.... that may be worth more to that trainer than the back and forth stuff which - honestly, when I've seen it in training, with a lot of people/dogs it may not work because it's typically unclear to the dogs what they are supposed to be doing.

My preference for dealing with an over excitable dog (I have one, btw) is I firmly believe in keeping a bubble around us + I put my dog to work doing something which helps calm him down. This is a dog who was up uber early yesterday morning, jogged a few laps around show grounds with me to get him calmed down a little, showed him (and works his butt off in the ring).... brought him and his brother home and went out to pull jumps out to work on obedience with the older dog and the little guy was so excited about getting a turn that he repeatedly jumped back and forth over the high jump like it was a baby height to him. I love that energy and would not correct it. 

Somebody else out there who wants their dog to pass the stupid CGC stuff before they are a year old... they might feel differently and may be doing strong corrections to break a dog of some of that joie de vivre.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Megora said:


> But the reason why people use tools like prongs period, etc.... is because trainers may want a completely correct response at that moment. I'm not disputing that being good enough for some people or dogs nor am I saying that your preferred method is completely wrong or useless, but am simply pointing out that if that person delivered a correction (big or small, big in this case) which got through to his dog and his dog was perfect afterwards.... that may be worth more to that trainer than the back and forth stuff which - honestly, when I've seen it in training, with a lot of people/dogs it may not work because it's typically unclear to the dogs what they are supposed to be doing.


I appreciate what you're saying. I believe the correction was too big with a prong collar, but the handle did get results. I asked on this board because I wondered if this was generally accepted practice.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeldwilson said:


> I appreciate what you're saying. I believe the correction was too big with a prong collar, but the handle did get results. I asked on this board because I wondered if this was generally accepted practice.


My measure of a correction typically is looking beyond it. 

Was it merited?

How did the dog handle it? As in how did the dog bounce back? 

Did it get results that mean the correction never has to be used again? And did the handler pair the correction with positive reinforcement when the dog was right afterwards. 

These are things I look at when watching other people training. And I DO WATCH and try to understand what's going on. 

Things that annoy me is when I see people using corrections and corrective devices without any training or communication to the dogs and there's very little movement towards weaning off those tools. With some people on this forum who put a lot of work into training their dogs for purpose beyond the neighborhood walks, this does not apply. It's more like somebody I know who asked my opinion of using a gentle leader on her dog who is related to mine (same paternal lines) and I know is a lot of dog for that reason. I instead showed her a collar and leash to use, methods to use, and recommended games to play avoid some of the behaviors she's trying to correct.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Megora said:


> My measure of a correction typically is looking beyond it.
> 
> Was it merited?
> 
> ...


Let's say the handler hit a dog with a stick, praised the dog, and the dog "bounced back." These don't justify the use of a stick, in my opinion. Again, I'm not a professional.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeldwilson said:


> Let's say the handler hit a dog with a stick, praised the dog, and the dog "bounced back." These don't justify the use of a stick, in my opinion. Again, I'm not a professional.


Oh hell, I knew somebody who beat her german shepherds with a broom. 

Why? 

To correct them for chasing horses/quartering them in the paddocks.. 

Why? Because a dog can get his head smashed in from one kick from a horse. 

They never chased horses and she never needed that correction again. 

Was I horrified? YES.

But did I understand the need to make a point to these dogs? Yes. 

For many people who do not want to use any corrections with their dogs, you know what their option is to stop a dog from chasing horses? 

Chain the dog up. Keep him in the house. And that's a crappy life for a german shepherd. This woman had 3-4 big GSD's - all farm dogs, etc. They would have been eating the furniture if kept only on leash all their life.


----------



## michaeldwilson (Aug 14, 2012)

Megora said:


> Oh hell, I knew somebody who beat her german shepherds with a broom.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


I believe there are better ways to train that German Shepherd than to beat it with broom handle. Again, I emphasize, I'm not a professional.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

michaeldwilson said:


> I believe there are better ways to train that German Shepherd than to beat it with broom handle. Again, I emphasize, I'm not a professional.


She beat the dogs with the straw side of the broom...

I think most people like to throw their weight around about dog training (even me, LOL), but the fact is that these dogs had a life or death situation that needed to be corrected. Horses can kill a german shepherd very easily. Flipside of that, a dangerous dog who is running with a pack can kill a horse very easily. This was a full horse farm with foals 1-2 times a year - which is an added risk and danger either way. 

You think about all the posts people boldly post on this forum about what they would do to a dog who threatens theirs.... including shooting to kill.


----------



## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

michaeldwilson said:


> I appreciate what you're saying. I believe the correction was too big with a prong collar, but the handle did get results. I asked on this board because I wondered if this was generally accepted practice.


For most dogs, the collars correction is enough. Do some dogs need more? Absolutely! Stringing them up by a prong is not acceptable and should be saved for extreme circumstances.


----------

