# Hepatitis



## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Is anyone a medical professional? Last summer, Brandy had a liver biopsy done at Auburn University. She's always had excessive water consumption and urination, and this was part of their diagnostic plan. 

Anyway, I was told that her liver was small but functioning normally. Because of its size, they recommended re-testing her bloodwork every 3-6 months. 

When her regular vet confessed that he never even looked at Auburn's report, I switched vets. (Lots of other reasons, but that was one of the deal breakers.) Imagine my shock when her new vet read the report, and just called to ask me what treatment was used to treat Brandy's hepatitis? 

*WHAT HEPATITIS?!!!!!! *He faxed me the report, and sure enough it says "hepatitis suppurative, acute to subacute". I have no clue what that means but you can be sure I'm going to find out! 

Her new vet is talking about doing further dye studies of her liver and urinary system. 

Brandy drinks 3-4 times the normal amount of water, and needs to go out 10-20 times a day. We've said all along that something's not normal.


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## a_and_b2004 (Jan 8, 2006)

OMG! I cant beleive that. the first vet didnt even read it!! i would have a few choice words for that man. I hope all goes well with the new vet. mine has two goldens of his own so he has a soft spot for GR's. I will keep Brandy in my prayers and keep us updated ....


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

That is an outrage! I can feel smoke coming out of my ears after reading that. You darn tooting that vet would NEVER EVER EVER EVER see one of my pets again. There has only been a few times outside tests have had to be run on my dogs, but as SOON as he got the report, my vet called to tell me--KayCee's thyroid level was normal, the little growth on Buck's lip was a melanoma, but the one inside his mouth was benign, etc. And that is a vet's job as far as i am concerned. Read every report and let the animal's "parents" know what it said. In this case Brandy needed treatment or diet or something apparently. I am still fuming.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I didn't sleep last night out of worry. Her new vet called late on a Friday afternoon and wanted to her in for tests this weekend even though they were booked solid. What does that say?! 

I'm angry with the intern at Auburn who called me with the pathology results and "missed" this one; and I'm doubly angry with her private vet who never even looked at the report. 

I kept bugging her private vet, asking him what else we could do because her problems were still there. He was so convinced she'd just grow out of it that he lost interest in any other diagnostics.


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## a_and_b2004 (Jan 8, 2006)

Maybe there is a way to report him to the medical board or something. I would think that vets have a board like people doctors do. He needs to be disiplined for his total lack caring and disregard for Brandys health. we are behind you all the way !


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I want to see how this plays out. I'll contact the surgeon (not the intern) in Auburn to see what treatment she would have recommended six months ago. Then get with my current vet to see what, if any, damage has been done by our not knowing about the disease. 

The best way to pursue an action against Brandy's former vet is to have everything clearly outlined.


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## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

I found this article informative. Good luck.


http://www.2ndchance.info/hepatitis.htm


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Brandy'sMom, she should have been covered for this in her boosters unless she got it before them or inbetween possibly. I'm shocked they didnt' tell you, one thing they should have mentioned was a change in diet. I think they go with a low protein diet to put less stress on the liver.

I don't know that much about it, but i'd sure want some answers as too why you were not told! You could go into the Merck manual online, you may be able to get some information in there for this.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

The vaccinations cover viral hepatitis. There's also bacterial hepatitis. I don't know which one she has but that's one of my long list of questions. 

She also has a high urinary pH, and thank goodness I've had her on a low protein diet for that! Not that it's done any good in lowering her pH, but it may have helped prevent further liver damage.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

mblondetoo said:


> I found this article informative. Good luck.
> http://www.2ndchance.info/hepatitis.htm


Other than her increased thirst and urination, she doesn't have any other symptoms -- even her bloodwork has been normal in the past (thank goodness!). 

So maybe this isn't as bad as it could be. The veterinary sites I've looked at describe vomiting, lethargy, lack of appetite, diarrhea. Brandy is a typical 14-month-old golden: a bundle of energy and eats like a horse. For that, I'm grateful!


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I can't believe this. OMG !!! I hope that your new Vet can help.
As for the old Vet,gather the info and then report the SOB. That's not right,he needs to be in another business.
We will keep you and Brandy in our thoughts and prayers,
Shane


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks, Shane and everyone for the moral support. I'm happy with her new vet, who even gave me his cell phone number to call him at any time, 24-hours a day. 

What's remarkable is that he is taking action when he hasn't even met Brandy yet. After a frustrating first year with Brandy, this doctor is finally giving us some hope.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Some vets do not need to be vets and i wonder how they ever got their shingle. On one of my all breed boards a lady came on a little over a year ago talking about her cavalier spaniel's knee problems. The poor little thing limped so bad and couldn't even get up one step. Her vet diagnosed luxating patellas in both knees and prescribed "diet to lose a couple of pounds, rest, and pain pills." But the dog was not getting any better, in fact seemed worse. I amost lost it. There is no way losing a couple of pounds, rest, and pain pills will deepen the groove to hold the knee cap in place, and if the dog was so bad it coudn't even get up one step, it was pretty bad. I told her to get that dog to another vet and get a 2ed opinion and even a 3rd opinion would not hurt a thing, expecially if the 2ed vet thought as i did--surgery was needed. A couple others who had dogs that had had the surgery backed me. 

Well, she did and BOTH said surgery ASAP. She had the srugery done--ligaments were also damaged by that time-- and in just a couple of months the little guy was walking normal and climbing steps.

I am sure if Brandy's liver levels has been good with blood work, then there isn't damage or at least not much and you know the liver is wonderful at repairing itself, given time. I can't remember if it was mentioned above or not, but i have read over and over that milk thistle is great for the liver. i have never used it, bu read stories by many others who swear by it.

I think you have found a great new vet. Sounds very much like mine.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks Sandra for your reassuring words. I post my "adventures" as much to help educate other people as anything. It's a hard lesson that I should know by now: always ask for copies of test results for your own files. 

One reason I should have known is that a couple of weeks ago, my own doctor called to tell me some test results. I asked for a copy and discovered that my doctor gave me the wrong information! She's not my doctor anymore. 

So I am kicking myself for not asking for a copy of Brandy's biopsy report last September. I should have known better.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Who on this earth is perfect (true, some think they are) and thinks of everything. Do you have any idea how many times after Hunter's death (and i had found all those stories about PH6)I did ask myself "Why didn't I do research. i would have found this information and never used it and i would still have him." I don't do that anymore. And don't go kicking yourself because you didn't think about getting the copy.

And you are right about telling the story. That is what makes these forums so great. I have learned so much from them, and i hope I have helped others with my stories about Hunter, about kayCee's knees and her reaction to her vax, abut honey's heart worms and treatment, Buck' thyroid, etc. There is so much to be learned and shared that will help our dogs, and besides, it is great seeing the pictures and telling of funny things our dogs do, etc.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

You're right. I have learned much from you in the past, as well as so many others.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Brandy's Mom...perhaps you are closer now to some clarity on this. I think of what you went through...and not knowing...not knowing exactly what to do....is a hard place to be. Missing that Hepititus in the report was a huge mistake!!! I hope this leads to more explanation and better treatment for your sweet Brandy.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks so much. It's been one solid year of insisting to every vet that there was something wrong with her, only to be sent home time and again.

Update: Her new vet also found vaginitis, possibly caused by an anatomical problem that may be causing her urine to pool in her vaginal area. So we may have multiple issues to address, and we may be making more trips down to Auburn for additional diagnostics and surgery. 

At least this time, we have a vet who doesn't think we're imagining things and who is willing to be our advocate as we try to develop a plan of action.

I will always wonder why we picked Brandy from the litter. Would someone else have assumed she would not, or could not, be housebroken? Would they have sentenced her to a life outside? Would she have been abandoned or worse, beaten because she had frequent accidents? 

We feel very fortunate, if not a whole lot poorer because the vet bills, to have Brandy in our lives. There's a reason for everything that happens in this world. How or why we wound up with one who has physical problems, and another who has emotional problems, I'll never know. Except that we're determined to give them the best lives possible.


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## mojosmum (May 20, 2005)

And for that you are ANGELS!

God Bless You for helping these two helpless babies. Without you their lives would have been unbearable. :smooch:


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Our new vet just spoke with Auburn, and confirmed that my old vet should have prescribed antibiotics. But because her blood work continues to be normal, he feels that she probably has overcome the hepatitis on her own. 

But he also told me that anything up to one gallon -- 16 cups -- of water a day can be considered normal. Huh? 
Jenna doesn't drink nearly that much, and neither did Reyna. 

*She's 57 pounds. Anyone else's adult female drink that much water in one day? *


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Well, Lucky isn't female...but he drinks from a water bottle which I'm sure cuts any unnecessary drinking. In a 24 hour period he goes through.....I'm pretty sure....1 to 1 1/2 quarts. If he's hot or after a more extenous walk I lay out a bowl for him which he sucks down. That hasn't happened lately. He's unused to having so much "water at will" and when its put in a bowl and will often have accidents later.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

And he is 53 pounds


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

So that's about half of what Brandy drinks. This just doesn't make sense. Once again, I'm being told she's normal and just deal with it. She goes out twice as much as Jenna, and as our last golden Reyna did.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

Well, it is good to hear that the vet feels she has healed herself. Since i just have a large water pan out in the kitchen and another outside, i would say all of mine together don't drink much more than a gallon in a day. They do drink more during the summer.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Brandy's Mom said:


> *She's 57 pounds. Anyone else's adult female drink that much water in one day? *


I've never measured how much Samson drinks, but it sure seems he drinks A LOT of water......


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

I think there's a margin of how much dogs should drink. Some dogs - especially the water fanatic goldens - just enjoy drinking water and drink more than they "need" to without any medical reason. My Charlie used to tank up on water like it's going out of style. If it's within the normal realm it wouldn't be concerned. Can't really compare one dog to the next since they can both be so different in their habits.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Sidney gulps down at least a couple quarts of water a day easily but unfortunately a quarter of it ends up on the floor and anywhere else his big lips can carry it to.

Brandy's mom at least the mystery is now solved... you know what you are/were dealing with. Let me see if I've got this right... Brandy had hepatitis and has recovered but this disease left her with a smaller liver and thus reduced liver functions, is this right? Now did she have acute hepatitis or chronic hepatitis?


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Monomer, quite frankly I don't know if anything is truly solved. And the fact that Brandy drinks nearly four quarts a day compared to everyone else's 2 kind of confirms it. 

Since her liver is perfectly formed, just small, she was probably born that way. 

My current vet is assuming the hepatitis isnt' there, but then it didn't show up on the blood test taken right before her liver biopsy either. (It was diagnosed as "acute or subacute"). 

This still doesn't explain her thirst or urgent needs to urinate. I have a vet friend in another state who still wonders if there isn't something physiologically wrong with her that she feels the need. There are more tests that can done to rule that out. And I'm tempted to ask for them just so that we know for certain that there's nothing else going on.


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## Brinkleysmom (Dec 17, 2005)

If they said the dog has acute hepatitis, they should check th enzymes and bile acids periodically and they can use various medications and special diets. They should also do a copper level


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Enzymes came back normal a few days ago. Bile acids probably need to be checked but they were pretty close to normal at the time she was originally diagnosed. She's on a diet to try to lower her pH which is a very alkaline 8.5 right now. We're trying to avoid her getting crystals on top of everything else. 

You're the second person to mention the copper levels to me. I'll add that to my list of diagnostics. Thanks!


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## Brinkleysmom (Dec 17, 2005)

Did they do xrays to see if the dog has a smaller than normal liver? And is there any jaundice present that you know of??


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## Brinkleysmom (Dec 17, 2005)

Sometimes when the abdomen of a dog swells that means its filled with fluid and its yellowish and you will see it in his eyes or gums. Things that lead to hepatitis in dogs are a number of things such as autoimmune disease and drug and chemical toxcicity. Sometimes the toxins are found in moldy grain especially corn and this can cause the disease. High quality dog foods screen the grains they use for toxins


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

They'v done x-rays, two ultrasounds and exploratory surgery during which they did the liver biopsy. The hepatitis, from all indications, was bacterial. 

She's not showing any clinical signs of hepatitis. But I'd hate to think there's some type of infection lingering. As I said, they didn't see it in the blood enzymes before they found it in the biopsy. So just because the enzymes are the same doesn't mean much in my book. 

I hate to sound like I know more than the vets, because I don't. But I do know my dog. And I know just enough about veterinary medicine to be dangerous.


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## Brinkleysmom (Dec 17, 2005)

I dont blame you at all. Get the copper level done and see what they say. Its very treatable with antibiotics and anti inflammatories and low protein diets. The only down side would be that the dog would have to have liver enzymes monitored routinely for the rest of his life. But definitely get a copper level


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Brandy's Mom,
Your intuition isn't lying to you. Even reading what you wrote and not knowing Brandy.....it doesn't make sense that excessive NEED for water AND excessive urination is normal. Especially since you've found subtle hints of other issues within her urinary system.

People go through this too: 

My husband has 3 to 4 nights a week of fever and flu like symptoms with no explanation. We've gone through 3 doctors...the last one that said that "some people just do that". Would anybody on this board believe that statement? 

My cousin went through multiple doctors who felt all her symptoms were "in her head"...until finally it became quite apparent that she had progressive ms.

It never hurts to get a fresh vet who has some motivation to find the answer. 

I do have a question. It takes more work, more time and is less pleasurable to drink from a water bottle instead of lapping out of a bowl. 

Would Brandy go through the work to get the same amount as she now drinks? To give you an example...Lucky would have to lick his water bottle about 5 minutes to get the same as a few seconds lapping from a bowl. I'm guessing here...but that seems accurate.

Does it seem to you that Brandy would sit all day at a water bottle?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I know you've spent a lot of time looking for info on this so please....don't roll your eyes....but I couldn't resist posting this link. I love the long list of possible reasons for drinking and urinating excessively. The longer the better in a situation where nothing fits. Of course the teminology is foreign...for me anyway.

http://www.vetinfo.com/ddrinkandurin.html


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Our 4 drink 2 to 3 gallons each day between all four,but Sam is 127 pounds and the others all weigh about 80 pounds.
From left field,has anyone tested for Lyme ? A neighbors Lab had it,apparently for a long time,and he drank almost constantly.
Also,correct me if I'm wrong,but isn't drinking too much water a harmful thing?
Test for Lyme,it has many different symptoms and can be tricky to find.
Shane


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Not sure if you've ruled it out yet, but I've heard of dogs with kidney problems drinking and peeing more than normal. Other than that I have nothing to offer except I hope she gets better!


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## goldencharm (Dec 26, 2005)

Brandy's mom, I am an RN and the first thing I think when I hear of excessive thirst and urination is Diabetes. Has that been ruled out? Also, excessive water intake leads to hyponatremia (low blood sodium), which can lead to cardiac arrhythmias etc. I would be uncomfortable with assuming that this is "normal". I agree with the water bottle suggestion, if only to eliminate the possibility that this is "recreational/habitual consumption" as opposed to an overwhelming "urge", as seen with Diabetics.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks everyone. Yes, she has been tested for both types of diabetes. And since she exhibited this when she was 8 weeks old, I sincerely doubt it's Lyme. I firmly believe it's congental: something she was born with. 

What kind of water bottle do you use, and how do you prevent it from spilling all over everywhere? I have an appointment with a behaviorist tomorrow, and he says he can help us determine what part of her water drinking may be behavioral and what may still be medical. I'm trying everything! 

Lucky's Mom -- I'd never roll my eyes at any suggestion because I never know when something might help! They still haven't ruled out structural defects in her system, but I don't know that any of those would cause the excessive drinking. 

Shane: Since yours drink 2-3 gallons each. How often do they need to go out? I'm really trying to get a handle on what's normal out here in the real world not in some veterinary textbook.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

The water bottle we've been using is a 32 oz "dog bottle" from Farnam Pet Products. We bought it in Petsmart. We should have bought the bigger one so that we wouldn't have to refill but once a day as he got older.... but live and learn.

It attaches to the crate. They lick the control ball in the nozzle which release water. Very unsatifying way to drink. I liken it to water torchure. We have a wire crate....you'd have to look at it to see if it would work with your crate. If you do use it...make sure its high enough where she doesn't have to lower her head. It should be slightly higher then her muzzle when she's sitting...where she has to cock her head a little to reach. It also will take time to get her to understand how to use it. As soon as she licks the ball, she'll understand.

Good luck on the behaviourist. I'm really anxious to see what his opinion is.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Okay, so it's like a giant hamster water bottle. I might have one of those somewhere, left over from one of Reyna's plane rides.


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that they drink that much each,that's how much ALL of them drink a day. In the summer that goes up by about a gallon,but that's between all of them. They all drink from the same bowls so I can't say how much each one of them drinks,but certainly less than a gallon a day,unless it's very hot out.
All I can say is we will keep you in our thoughts and prayers and pray that you find the answer.
Shane


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