# Grade 5 heart murmur



## ki29022 (Dec 12, 2012)

Hey guys. My husband and I just got a golden retriever puppy for Christmas. His name is Simba and he is now 10 weeks old. It is the first dog either of us have had and we have been anticipating this day for a long time. We took him to the vet a week after we got him to get his 2nd set of shots and for a wellness checkup. That is when the vet informed us of Simba's heart murmur. She said it was a 3-5 on a 6 grade scale. She said that she thought it was significant enough to make a cardiologist appointment. We made one for the 29th of December.

The breeder we got Simba from said we could give him back, but there is no way that we would be able to do that. We love him so much and couldn't imagine giving him back. 




There are so many unknowns.. We don't know what to do? 

We don't have the resources to pay much more than reasonable medical expensives for him. 

Does anyone know anything about what kind of life Simba will have if everything is confirmed and what we need to watch out for. 

Our vet said to watch for a blue color to the gums, but he has a very dusky (whiteish) color to his gums already.

, Simba's mommy


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

ki29022 said:


> Hey guys. My husband and I just got a golden retriever puppy for Christmas. His name is Simba and he is now 10 weeks old. It is the first dog either of us have had and we have been anticipating this day for a long time. We took him to the vet a week after we got him to get his 2nd set of shots and for a wellness checkup. That is when the vet informed us of Simba's heart murmur. She said it was a 3-5 on a 6 grade scale. She said that she thought it was significant enough to make a cardiologist appointment. We made one for the 29th of December.
> 
> The breeder we got Simba from said we could give him back, but there is no way that we would be able to do that. We love him so much and couldn't imagine giving him back.
> 
> ...



Oh man, I am sorry to hear this. It's amazing how fast they capture our hearts and then to have something wrong with them is just devastating. 

I don't know about heart murmers, never had a dog with one. The cardiologist is the best place though to start. And I would guess they can answer all your questions, give you the different scenarios, pro's and con's. 

I will keep you and your Simba in my thoughts and prayers, please keep us updated and hopefully somebody will see this who does have knowledge will chime in.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

It is not uncommon for pups to have heart murmers that they grow out of. Did your vet mention that to you? I hope this is the case for you and Simba.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Sorry to hear about the dx--watch for the signs your vet said, but try not to stress too much until you see the cardiologist who will be able to appropriately evaluate the murmur. Your pup may grow out of it, live just fine with it or need to have meds--whole spectrum of possibilities.

Did your pup's parents have heart clearances accomplished by a cardiologist?


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## ki29022 (Dec 12, 2012)

When we notified the breeder she was very sympathetic and shocked. She took her dogs to her vet the next day and there were no problems with their hearts.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Oh I am so sorry to hear this and I understand how you would not be able to give him back. It is good you are going to a specialist. One of our goldens had a heart murmur and I think it was a grade 2 or 3. The good news is he out grew it so there is some hope. Good luck to you.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Yes it is quite common for a young pup to have a hear murmur. I would have thought it would have been heard before 10 weeks but it may have been missed in earlier checks. Anytime things are not perfect with our pups/dogs we worry. But there is a very good chance this will pass and there will be no consequences from it. Paws crossed this is the case for Simba. :wave:


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

ki29022 said:


> When we notified the breeder she was very sympathetic and shocked. She took her dogs to her vet the next day and there were no problems with their hearts.


A practitioner vet can't clear a heart for breeding--well they can, but it's meaningless, GRCA recommends an examination performed by a cardiologist. If the specialist finds an actual murmur with long-term consequences, hopefully your breeder will refund the purchase price (vice asking you to return the pup) as well as get her dogs clearances (hips, elbows, heart & eyes) before breeding another round of puppies & potentially causing more heartache for unsuspecting puppy buyers.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

where are you going for the cardiologist appt? I've used GVS in Atlanta and Auburn vet school for referrals with great success.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

My spaniel has had a murmur for many years. Her breed is highly prone to them. She recently progressed from "murmur" to congestive heart failure and was put on medications. Although that sounds dire, in fact she could live for quite a while longer on the meds. She is almost 10 now. But it's hard to listen to her cough and have trouble breathing. We limit her activity and arrange our lives around her needs as much as we can. 

I think you would be wise to have a heart to heart with the cardiologist. Ask about worst case scenarios, and the costs if in fact this is something your dog will not grow out of. I'm guessing you haven't purchased health insurance since you are concerned about the costs. 

I understand that you don't want to give the puppy back, but if you can't afford to provide it with needed health care, that's a problem. Hopefully the pup will have a long life ahead. What do you know about the breeder? A good one? Likely to take care of the puppy? 

Sorry to sound negative, but I think you need to ask difficult questions right now for the sake of the puppy. I really, really hope the cardiologist tells you it's a juvenile murmur and your dog will grow out of it.


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## ki29022 (Dec 12, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> where are you going for the cardiologist appt? I've used GVS in Atlanta and Auburn vet school for referrals with great success.


 
I'm not sure. We live in Snellville, but I work in Athens.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm sorry to sound negative, too, but puppies typically grow out of a low grade (1 or 2) heart murmur, not a grade 5.
As for the breeder, you might suggest that he/she refund whatever you paid her/him for the puppy, for you to put toward the medical tests and care. Many breeders will be glad to do that for you. 
I hope the cardiologist feels that it is much more minor than originally thought, and that the puppy will grow out of it.


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## ki29022 (Dec 12, 2012)

OutWest said:


> My spaniel has had a murmur for many years. Her breed is highly prone to them. She recently progressed from "murmur" to congestive heart failure and was put on medications. Although that sounds dire, in fact she could live for quite a while longer on the meds. She is almost 10 now. But it's hard to listen to her cough and have trouble breathing. We limit her activity and arrange our lives around her needs as much as we can.
> 
> I think you would be wise to have a heart to heart with the cardiologist. Ask about worst case scenarios, and the costs if in fact this is something your dog will not grow out of. I'm guessing you haven't purchased health insurance since you are concerned about the costs.
> 
> ...


Simba acts like a normal puppy. He plays, runs, bites EVERYTHING, sleeps and eats fine. One think that I have noticed is the he exhales strongly alot. Kinda like a sneeze but different. It could be normal for a puppy to do, but I have never owned a dog so I dont know if it is normal.

We don't know much about the breeder, other than she has been great about getting back to us, and said she would even give us our money back to help pay for the expenses of the cardiologist if we need her to.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

You never know what will happen... A friend of mine just lost a girl last week who was diagnosed with a grade 6 murmur and they told her she would live a year... she died last week at age 11 from cancer... nothing to do with her heart...these guys can surprise you... 

If you have not gone to a cardiologist then I would go... they will be able to follow the pup and prescribe when you can and do a doppler to tell you exactly what is going on .... I would definitely do that ... 

I would treat that puppy normally... I would make sure he is in shape and stays in shape... I would make sure that he gets a great quality food and is not allowed to be a beast because he is a "sick puppy" treat him as normally as you can and love him for as long as you have him .... you may find that he surprises you. 
s


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

ki29022 said:


> I'm not sure. We live in Snellville, but I work in Athens.


But I thought you have an appt on the 29th? GVS is 30 mi away from Snellville and they have a cardiology department and of course if you work in Athens, you have UGA. I took one of my goldens to GVS for intestinal issues and they were great on the consult and working up a range of diagnostic options--not pushy in any regards, answered all questions clearly and were all around great with my girl.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Here is a link to a list oof board certified cardiology specialists in Georgia

ACVIM


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Most general practitioner vets are not qualified to grade a murmur. Your vet may be among the few that are but it is really rare. 
As a side note I have a friend who got a pup from a breeder who had been returned due to a grade 5 murmur diagnosed by a cardiologist. That was over thirteen years ago and the dog got her MX and MXJ, JH, WC, CD and is now enjoying retirement and being spoiled rotten. As stated you never do know.


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## ki29022 (Dec 12, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> But I thought you have an appt on the 29th? GVS is 30 mi away from Snellville and they have a cardiology department and of course if you work in Athens, you have UGA. I took one of my goldens to GVS for intestinal issues and they were great on the consult and working up a range of diagnostic options--not pushy in any regards, answered all questions clearly and were all around great with my girl.


 
No, we are going back to the regular vet the 29th for shots and another check-up. We havent made cardiology appointment yet.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Ki*

Praying for Simba and you.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

ki29022 said:


> No, we are going back to the regular vet the 29th for shots and another check-up. We havent made cardiology appointment yet.


If the murmur is still present at the next appt, please don't delay on the referral to a cardiologist. I know folks have told of the odds defying goldens, but pups do unfortunately die from heart issues (which is why breeders should be doing clearances). I think back to Rio from Dirks Fund who didn't make it to first birthday, who was never able to run full out and had a limited and all too short puppyhood.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

And unfortunately SheetsSM is correct. The reason we do heart clearances in Goldens is there are heart issues in Goldens which can take them VERY young, less than 1 year old. So while I am hoping to put you at ease, it is EXTREMELY important if there is any hint of a heart problem to get the pup to a specialist ASAP.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

I am sorry you got that news from your vet but on the other hand, be glad that it was detected early.

What the other members have posted is correct, a regular vet is rarely qualified to grade a heart murmur. Having detected one, the absolute person to see is a board-certified veterinary cardiologist. 

Please make an appointment as soon as you can with a board-certified veterinary cardiologist. AmbikaGR posted the link for ACVIM. I had a very similar situation when my Chance was a puppy and my regular vet pushed me to make the cardioligist appt asap due to high demand and sometimes a wait to get in. We waited 3 weeks for the appointment so do this as soon as you can.

A cardiologist at a veterinary teaching hospital would be great if you can get an appointment with one. 

Don't be fooled by an energetic puppy without symptoms. Chance had no symptoms until he was 8 months old yet the cardiologist confirmed a grade 5/6 murmur.

Your breeder sounds awesome having already agreed to help with expenses by refunding your purchase price. 

For now, don't get ahead of yourself with worry about the what-ifs. First get your vet's diagnosis confirmed by the cardiologist. Then go from there.

The good news is there are treatments available and diagnosing it early is important before the heart sustains permanent damage. Chance was diagnosed early and treated. He is 7 years old, has yearly a cardiologist checkup (ultrasound,etc) and lives a completely normal Golden life. Does agility and competes in Rally-O. No restrictions.

If you need more info later, I am happy to help. Keep us posted. :wave:


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

A murmur graded that high is definitely of a high concern to me and I'd go to the cardiologist as soon as possible. Dogs with murmurs that high can lead healthy lives, but it depends on the nature of the murmur. Puppies can outgrow murmurs, but with it being graded that high I have my doubts. Not to say it can't happen.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well as we all know, SAS is hereditary, not congenital, which means it is not necessarily present at birth. It can show up as a heart murmur until one year. A grade I-II murmur, a dog may out grow. Don't get the grading a murmur 3-5 as that is a huge leap. Not going to outgrow....


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Just wondering how the follow-up appt on the 29th went and if you ever went to the cardiologist...


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I hope the appointment went well - any updates?


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I hope the owner took her dog to a cardiologist. If this were me, I would be making an appointment the day I found out.


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