# I've decided to let Shelley go



## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi everyone i've decided to rehome Shelley its going to be sad to see her go but i have to think about Einstein and my chihuahua too. Shelley is just to ruff with them no matter what i do or say Shelley will just not listen. Einstein is getting annoyed with her biting his back legs jumping on him,not letting him have any rest. So i think its best if she went to another home with younger dogs and be allowed inside the home. Shelley also will not leave Rascal my chihuahua alone she keeps hitting him with her paw and trying to jump on him so for the safety and well being for all involved Shelley will be rehomed. I miss her greatly but its for the best for all involved. My dad is absolutely sick of her so its for the safety of her to go too. I'm in tears writing this but i know i'm doing the right thing.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Im sorry you have to do this, but in the long run, it sounds like it is best for everyone.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> My dad is absolutely sick of her so its for the safety of her to go too.


I'm sorry for you, glad for Shelly, but this line has made me sick of him. Sorry, I'm an adamant dog LOVER and to hear this makes me furious. That's all I have to say about this.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm glad for Shelley. No golden should be in a home where anyone feels absolutely sick of him/her. That's just sad.

Good decision, you are doing the right thing. Stick with it.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I think it is the very right decision. Regardless of whether you loved her or not, she was not being treated well by anyone else in your family. She deserves a chance to be happy and to be a puppy. Thank you for giving her that chance.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I am so sorry but it sounds like you have truly made the proper decision in this instance. 
I am sure it wil all work out in everyone's best interest.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Where is she going? to a rescue?


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## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

I'm sure this has been a difficult decision. Shelley needs more than you can provide. Finding a new home for her is probably the best for all concerned.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm so sorry that you have to take this decision but it's very courageous!.
Have you,already found a new home?.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

It sounds like the best choice for all involved. How will you find her a new home?


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## cinnamonteal (May 16, 2008)

I'm so sorry. It sounds like you've made the best choice for her.

(((*hugs*)))


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm not giving away Shelley for nothing i'm asking $500 for her which i think is reasonable. I feel like crap about doing it tho. I feel like i'm forced to sell her, But i know its for the best.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Where is she going? Do you know?


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I think you madethe right decision to rehome her. She needs the love from everyone in the family and she needs to be able to part of the family inside the house. I know it was hard, but you mad the correct decision..please let us know where she goes.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I'm sorry hon, that must be really hard.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Can you give her back to her breeder?


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

i've had a few enquires about her but nothing too serious yet, One person owns 14 acres of property and Shelley will be an indoor/outdoor dog. She has another dog and chickens so she won't be alone if she goes there. I haven't heard back from all of them, They asked for pictures and is she ok with other dogs,cats,poultry. So i sent them pictures and the information they asked but haven't heard back yet.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Are there any other GRF people close to you who might be interested?


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

You are doing the right thing for Shelley, as painful as it is for you. With your father's attitude toward her, I think everyone will be happier with her in another home.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Make sure you check their references....including the Vet they use.

And...if she's not spayed, beware of people wanting an unspayed female. It could be a puppy miller. However, I doubt they'd pay that much for her.

IF you find it difficult to get what you want for her, and things start getting more difficult at home, please consider turning her over to a Golden Rescue. There are many people here who would be willing to help. And, you'd know she'd find a wonderful home.

I'm sorry to hear this, but I'm hopeful Shelly will find a new, loving, forever home.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

*hugs* I know how you feel. I tried desperately to get my dog Timber to be a service dog but it was not meant to be and I had to make the painstaking decision to release him. It hurt a lot and I still miss him. I am so happy though, that you made a decision that's right for both of you.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I can't do it, i just can't bare the thought of her not being around. My dad has only said his sick of her digging, His not touched her or even told her off. I don't know what is wrong with Shelley she was being so good now she has began to dig and chew things up again. I know its because i followed the breeders advice. She said Shelley needs to learn that she won't be able to go out for a walk everyday and the best way of teaching her this is to only walk her 2 times a week. Cause of doing what the breeder said she has now began to dig holes everyday and chew up everything. So far she has chewed up her blanket & my birds night cover. So now i have a long road ahead to get her back out of digging and chewing. She is obviously a dog that requires her exercise, Shes quite happy to miss a walk for 2 days if the weather isn't good but if the weather is good she wants to get out. I think dogs know when its raining,sunny,winding etc so on those sunny or little bit windy days she knows we go for a walk. But she also knows on those raining,real windy days we stay home. I love her too much i can't stand her not being with me.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

So you are keeping her now? No offense but a dog that is always outside in the yard, and only walked twice a week... no wonder she's digging and being destructive. Dogs need stimulation mentally and physically, in order to not become bored. Bored dogs become destructive misbehaving dogs. I really think you need to do the unselfish thing here and stick to the decision of rehoming her. I think she needs much more than your family can give her.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

If she came from a true breeder, that person should be willing to take her back. Good breeders want to know where their dogs are at all times. At least in the States, it's considered quite in poor taste (not to mention breech of contract) to get a dog from a breeder and then "sell" the dog to someone else if it doesn't work out. Just food for thought.

If the breeder can't help you, going through rescue is really the best choice. They are professionals at finding "second hand homes" for pets. You won't make any money that way, but the objective is to find a permanent, safe, loving home for Shelley vs. recouping money spent on her thus far.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> So you are keeping her now? No offense but a dog that is always outside in the yard, and only walked twice a week... no wonder she's digging and being destructive. Dogs need stimulation mentally and physically, in order to not become bored. Bored dogs become destructive misbehaving dogs. I really think you need to do the unselfish thing here and stick to the decision of rehoming her. I think she needs much more than your family can give her.


You obvisouly didn't read correctly did you. Before the breeders advice i was walking Shelley everyday for 45-80 minutes offlead runing,swimming or both. The breeder said to stop this to make her learn that she will not be walked when she wants to be walked, She will be walked when i'm good and ready to walk her. I now know this advice isn't for Shelley yes she knows that when its rainng or really wind we stay home. But on good weather we go for a walk. Cause of the breeders advice Shelley has missed out alot of exercise. So your saying its my fault for listening to the breeder probably yes, But i thought it might work but obvisously its not. I'm doing everything i can till i move to another town which then Shelley will be going to obedience school. Isn't it normal for people to get frustrated yes i probably get more frustrated then most people.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

So you are keeping her?


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes i plan on going back to my old routine walking everyday unless weather isn't good training for 15 minutes a day and spending alot of time just patting,cuddling and playing with her.


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## jaireen (Feb 25, 2008)

if only australia is near manila, i would take her in a heart beat....i know its difficult for you...i hope she goes a loving home....


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

I feel real sorry for this sweet little puppy.

IMO, the best choice for Shelley at this point - taking into account all the threads about her - is to find a rescue group who will do all the work necessary to find this girl a good, stable home.


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## cannondog (Oct 10, 2008)

Exercising a pup is SO important to make sure they aren't bored - I'm not quite sure what the breeder was talking about saying only walk the dog 2 days a week - if we did that we would have a dog chewing up the house for sure...Goldens need exercise. Sometimes I think we focus so much on the advice of people that may not know as much as they think - you know what is right and working for your dog. The thing is - when you get a puppy you have to COMMIT to making sure that you don't give up and you train and you work with the dog EVERY day. Puppies don't come pre-trained and ready to go...it takes a lot of work and time, and there will be days when you feel like nothing you are doing is getting through to them. But they love us unconditonally and they count on us to take care of them and love them and train them and give them routine in their life. There are days when Cannon drives me crazy, but I wouldn't trade him for the world and would NEVER for a second think of giving him up. You can't go back and forth with rehoming/not rehoming etc...


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## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

Please don't give up on her Tara. I personally could not understand any breeder saying that a walk twice week is enough. I would take her if I could, but I have two already and a litter on the way. Will the breeder take her back? Does Shelley have papers? Is she spayed? Sorry for all the questions! If she is in the yard, is there toys to keep her occupied? It may help!


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## dogluver04 (Jul 5, 2008)

I cant believe your breeder told you to not walk her every day.. A dog should be walked everyday! I can totally understand why she is destructive.. Shes got to much energy to burn and is finding something to do herself.. I say get walking that dog and she will be back to being an angel in no time..


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I guess I don"t understand why you continue to listen to a breeder that you admit was not doing right by Shelley when you got her. I still think that placing her is the best for all involved, but her "breeder" does not sound like she is knowledgeable enough to be advising you.

Placing a dog is never easy, but you need to think of the dog and what is best for her.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

What could possibly be wrong with walking a dog when they want to be walked?? Hmmm...Shelley's breeder is coldhearted


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I've said this before, but it's really important to be consistent and generous to a young dog and not project all kinds of various emotions and mood swings onto her. Sometimes you are very proud of her and in the mood to love her like crazy, other times you are frustrated, worried about your father kicking her, or ready to rehome her. That is hard on a pup, who lacks the ability to analyze human moods while still being able to sense them. Try to see in Shelley what is really there- a cheerful well-meaning creature who is far too young to do the right thing all the time. She has no way to know digging is bad, as she reinforces it for herself when she's alone. As an outdoor dog, she misses out on lots of "accidntal" training, snuggling, and learning the habits of her humans. If youre going to keep her, you have to get some kindly emotional distance and erase any thought she is bad or being bad. She is just not receiving what she needs yet in order to follow your rules and customs. If you keep her, I hope you will try to try to see the positive in Shelley every day and tell her all about it when she is good, and then minimize any chance of her upsetting family members by housing her/managing her wisely.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I think if a person goes back and forth with deciding to keep their dog, then rehoming the dog...then things are not at good place. Since you have so much you can not control within your family that makes it worse.

You've decided to keep her now....but it is based on emotion not committment. I think you need time to really think about things and make a decision not based on emotion but commitment....either commitment at finding her a better home, or commitment on keeping her. Your decision needs to be in Shelly's best interest, not what makes you feel good at the time.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I think if a person goes back and forth with deciding to keep their dog, then rehoming the dog...then things are not at good place. Since you have so much you can not control within your family that makes it worse.
> 
> You've decided to keep her now....but it is based on emotion not committment. I think you need time to really think about things and make a decision not based on emotion but commitment....either commitment at finding her a better home, or commitment on keeping her. Your decision needs to be in Shelly's best interest, not what makes you feel good at the time.


Excellent post. I think Lucky's Mom is exactly right.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I admit when i get frustered i tend to go over board eg post an ad up but then after i have cooled down i seem to remove the ad. I do not want to give up on her i'm trying everything i can. She has plenty of toys in the yard and gets plenty of attention. Like i said her destructiveness has only began since i started the breeders advice. I don't think i'll be taking much notice with her from now on. Right now i have plenty of work cut out for me getting Shelley back to the way she was. Pretty difficult when i have alot of packing too do as were moving. But i'll find time to take her for a walk even if its to the oval for an hour. What i do at the oval if my boyfriend is with me is i get him to hold the dogs by there collar while i walk to the end of the oval, Once i get to the end of the oval my boyfriend lets them go which they then full on run to me. I do this 3 to 4 times at the oval, then i throw Einsteins toy for him to chase while Shelley does her own thing eg walking around,chasing Rascal or birds if any around. 

She is actually getting better with her ecall now yesterday on our walk to the river she didn't take off towards the river she actually stoped when i told her too. I just love Shelley way too much i have great things planned for her. Cause of her love for smelling & exercise she will be good at tracking and endurance which i may do with her. I also plan on doing thearpy work with her eg taking her to hospitals,old peoples homes etc. I've even contacted another behavourist who basicly put Shelley in the too hard basket case without even meeting her. Shes not bad the problems where having is my fault for listening to the breeder to much. So you all think if i just go back to my old routine with her she should go back to her old self, Or would i have to up the exercise a bit more for a extra week to get rid of all that energy she has built up?


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I have alot of committment towards Shelley if i didn't i wouldn't be trying so hard to keep her and build her into the dog i think she could be. Yes i do get frustrated with her alot. The positive reinforcement training is going good with her, If i spot her doing something i say Arhh in my normal tone voice which seems to be enough. I'm committed on making this work,You ask anyone who knows me and has meet my dogs know how much committment i put into my dogs. Most people who meet Shelley think she is quite well behaved for her age, I can see that this is what i am proud of her. She is well behaved in everything else exept she likes to dig holes and chew things up. There the main problems with her, hopefully with more training and her getting older will help in that. I can see Shelley can go far and i'm committed to get her through that. I just have to learn to control my frustration which is also part of my diasbility. I'm starting to learn not to raise my voice if Shelley does something wrong, I'm now just saying Arhh Shelley No. I'm quite proud with her with alot of things she no longer eats everything on our walks,her recall is getting better.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I've said this before, but it's really important to be consistent and generous to a young dog and not project all kinds of various emotions and mood swings onto her. Sometimes you are very proud of her and in the mood to love her like crazy, other times you are frustrated, worried about your father kicking her, or ready to rehome her. That is hard on a pup, who lacks the ability to analyze human moods while still being able to sense them. Try to see in Shelley what is really there- a cheerful well-meaning creature who is far too young to do the right thing all the time. She has no way to know digging is bad, as she reinforces it for herself when she's alone. As an outdoor dog, she misses out on lots of "accidntal" training, snuggling, and learning the habits of her humans. If youre going to keep her, you have to get some kindly emotional distance and erase any thought she is bad or being bad. She is just not receiving what she needs yet in order to follow your rules and customs. If you keep her, I hope you will try to try to see the positive in Shelley every day and tell her all about it when she is good, and then minimize any chance of her upsetting family members by housing her/managing her wisely.


Beautifully said, Jill. :appl:


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

A dog cannot 'learn' that it will get a walk only twice a week, and I have to question the credentials of any breeder that promotes such bulls**t. Dogs don't plan ahead, they don't foresee the future and what may or may not be there. It sounds like the entire family, including Shelley, is miserable. Rehoming her would be the best thing for everyone, including her.


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## rictic (Feb 16, 2009)

i can see an emotional struggle going on here with the op.

i believe she does love shelley but the obstacles put in her way have caused much of this frustration which is hard to handle in her present circumstance.

when she does move to her own place i predict there will be a drastic change in the way the dog lives and behaves.

shelley will be an inside dog not a yard dog and will not have to cope with the feelings of her dad etc which is probably so confusing for the poor dog.

anyway i hope it all works out for the best.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

hmmm I'm trying not to be judgmental, but I think I am, as we all have those 'bad moody" days with our dogs. But I'm concerned for the pup with this entire situation. The indecision and the thought process is baffling. 

You have all these expectations for her without the willingness to go the distance? This is based off of your comments. Puppies are work and hard work at that, but wonderful work as the rewards out weigh the work. Even the daily bad work is fruitful as when it's corrected and they "get it" that's the reward.

I think you need to read your own posts and listen to yourself. Your not prepared or ready for a puppy and perhaps you think yourself re-homing, although hard, is the best option? Plus having her in a home with another person currently who does not want her is not fair. “My dad is absolutely sick of her so its for the safety of her to go too.” Red flag went up when you mention it’s for her “safety” to go…should we be worried for her if she stays? This statement makes me very worried.

If you keep her perhaps you can invest in getting her a trainer for a few months to help with some of the issues or a dog walker? Anyone who gives you a diagnosis without seeing a pup is not good or worth a dime…you should know this. “I've even contacted another behaviorist who basically put Shelley in the too hard basket case without even meeting her.” 

If you re-home it should be about the best possible place for her to be. A rescue group I think is the best option in this case.

I hope you figure it out for her. If you keep her, invest your time with her...that is all she needs. Pups are work, we all have our bad days with them.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Maybe what you're beginning to realise here is that Shelley is probably not suited for an outside life, maybe she would be much happier with a family who let her live with them inside the house. 

I understand your frustrations, the wringing of the hands when nothing seems to be going right, but what you need to remember is that none of this is Shelley's fault. She didn't ask to be brought to your home, she will only turn out the way you make her. By that, I mean if she gets the proper handling, training, and love, she will no doubt turn out to be a wonderful adult. Right now, she's still a baby, learning how the world works.

Too much hard exercise can be extremely damaging to young bones and joints. Short regular walks throughout the day is far better than one very long tiring walk. Also, is there any particular reason why she doesn't get a walk when its windy or wet? Crikey, I live in the UK and windy and wet days far outweigh dry sunny ones most of the time. I don the waterproofs and get out there with my dogs. Maybe there is a particular reason why you can't go out in the wet, but trust me, GR's are water dogs and I haven't met one yet which bothers with this weather!

If you do decide to rehome, I strongly disagree with asking money for her. This suggests to me that she is a commodity which can be bought or sold and the seller is more interested in making a quick buck or recouping some money rather than trying to find the best possible home for your dog. GR Rescue will assess Shelley and place her in the best home possible for her! If I couldn't keep my dogs, I would always go through the breeder/rescue route. I love my dogs too much to sell them. (I don't mean any offence by this, its just my honest opinion).

I truly hope you can deal with all Shelly's issues and are happy and can stick with your decision, whatever it is.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

The OP talks about "commitment" often in her posts, but everytime you get frustrated with your dog and you post an ad, then cool down and take the ad down.. that's not commitment. My dogs have completely destroyed a couch.. I was absolutely furious. I never once considered rehoming my dogs.. not once. I really think, as I said in my last post in this thread, that you need to do the unselfish thing here.. think about what is best for Shelley. Your family is not happy with her, you are obviously flippant enough in your commitment to her to actually place online ads to sell her, and she is bored and destructive kept as an outside dog away from her human family. I'm not trying to be harsh here.. but she needs to be given to a Golden rescue and allowed to find a home where she will be loved and cared for and committed to for life, not until she digs another hole in the backyard.


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## mm03gn (Sep 24, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> The OP talks about "commitment" often in her posts, but everytime you get frustrated with your dog and you post an ad, then cool down and take the ad down.. that's not commitment. My dogs have completely destroyed a couch.. I was absolutely furious. I never once considered rehoming my dogs.. not once. I really think, as I said in my last post in this thread, that you need to do the unselfish thing here.. think about what is best for Shelley. Your family is not happy with her, you are obviously flippant enough in your commitment to her to actually place online ads to sell her, and she is bored and destructive kept as an outside dog away from her human family. I'm not trying to be harsh here.. but she needs to be given to a Golden rescue and allowed to find a home where she will be loved and cared for and committed to for life, not until she digs another hole in the backyard.


I totally agree - I feel very badly for Shelley... I think she needs to be placed in a home where she is allowed to be inside with her family! Golden's are social dogs who IMO aren't meant to be outdoor dogs :no:


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## kirst1 (May 30, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> The OP talks about "commitment" often in her posts, but everytime you get frustrated with your dog and you post an ad, then cool down and take the ad down.. that's not commitment. My dogs have completely destroyed a couch.. I was absolutely furious. I never once considered rehoming my dogs.. not once. I really think, as I said in my last post in this thread, that you need to do the unselfish thing here.. think about what is best for Shelley. Your family is not happy with her, you are obviously flippant enough in your commitment to her to actually place online ads to sell her, and she is bored and destructive kept as an outside dog away from her human family. I'm not trying to be harsh here.. but she needs to be given to a Golden rescue and allowed to find a home where she will be loved and cared for and committed to for life, not until she digs another hole in the backyard.


I havent yet posted a reply but asI wasnt too sure how to say what I meant without sounding harsh, but this postsums it uop. I have had a mobile phone, digital camera eaten, I have a masive hole in my back garden where the 2 of mine like to dig, and even though I get annoyed at the time, it would never even enter my head to get rid of them.


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## boomers mom (Sep 17, 2008)

im so sorry that shelly will not be with you anymore. but in the long run as long as you rehome her to a great home she will thrive and get to play with the other dogs to her liking


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> I have alot of committment towards Shelley if i didn't i wouldn't be trying so hard to keep her and build her into the dog i think she could be. .


Look, I know what you are going through is frustrating and hard. But I think honesty will help you. 

Committed spouses don't constantly hire and fire divorce attorneys or even TALK about separating or breaking up. They do that becaue they are trying to break-up but find its almost as hard to break-up as it is to stay married. That's not a committed marriage. The same thing goes for dog ownership.

Its not a bad thing to be uncommitted because its part of the decision-makeing process. You just need to make a decision without emotion...the best decision for shelly and you....and then stick with it no matter how hard it is. 

You have to look at everything you control and everything you can't control...and base your decision on that.


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## cannondog (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not trying to make this sound offensive or rude, but the more I read of this - the more confused I am....is the home you are living in now YOUR home or your parents or what? And you are moving? I'm just so confused....I'm not understanding why someone would get a puppy in a home with other family members that aren't big dog lovers or understanding of the needs of puppies to begin with...


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> The OP talks about "commitment" often in her posts, but everytime you get frustrated with your dog and you post an ad, then cool down and take the ad down.. that's not commitment. My dogs have completely destroyed a couch.. I was absolutely furious. I never once considered rehoming my dogs.. not once. I really think, as I said in my last post in this thread, that you need to do the unselfish thing here.. think about what is best for Shelley. Your family is not happy with her, you are obviously flippant enough in your commitment to her to actually place online ads to sell her, and she is bored and destructive kept as an outside dog away from her human family. I'm not trying to be harsh here.. but she needs to be given to a Golden rescue and allowed to find a home where she will be loved and cared for and committed to for life, not until she digs another hole in the backyard.


I couldn't have said it any better, she needs to go to a rescue where she has a fair chance in being a loved family member!


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

cannondog said:


> I'm not trying to make this sound offensive or rude, but the more I read of this - the more confused I am....is the home you are living in now YOUR home or your parents or what? And you are moving? I'm just so confused....I'm not understanding why someone would get a puppy in a home with other family members that aren't big dog lovers or understanding of the needs of puppies to begin with...



This is absolutely right. It's not necessary that everyone be huge dog lovers, but it is completely necessary that everyone be on board with a dog or puppy, and all that entails. And it is also imperative that everyone in the home realizes the correct ways to train a dog... none of which include kicking a dog or throwing rocks at him/her when they misbehave, both of which as the OP has previously posted has been done to Shelley in this person's home.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

All pups,whatever the breed,will destroy and dig!.
Most of all,if not exercised or trained,enough!.
A dog kept outside will often get bored and dig!.Most of all,a pup!.
Both my dogs did!.I ended up,allowing to dig in one corner which stopped the digging,all over the place!.Titus would dig cos he was hot but he only digged,under a bush where it wasn't visible!.I never stopped him cos you couldn't see it!.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

This constant back and forth has to be taking a toll on Shelley. I wish I could come get her myself.


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

She lives in the home with her parents who are moving along with her. I believe that her sister also lives there with the young niece who is not very kind to Shelley.

I know you're doing the best you know how to do for Shelley, but as others have said, it might be a good idea to re-read the posts you have written in the past. I think that rehoming might be best for her according to your past posts. Sometimes it hurts to show how much you love a dog by doing what's in their best interests rather than our own.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

golden&hovawart said:


> All pups,whatever the breed,will destroy and dig!.
> Most of all,if not exercised or trained,enough!.
> A dog kept outside will often get bored and dig!.Most of all,a pup!.
> Both my dogs did!.I ended up,allowing to dig in one corner which stopped the digging,all over the place!.Titus would dig cos he was hot but he only digged,under a bush where it wasn't visible!.I never stopped him cos you couldn't see it!.


IMO digging is a great pleasure in a dogs life, one of mine just loves to dig. If she were an outside dog, my garden would be totally wrecked!!! We live near to a beach, so she digs there to her hearts content!

I don't see how you could stop a dog from digging if it wants to, especially if it lives outside anyway...


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I did!.
Priska use to dig, in front of the back door.
My Bathroom window was right on top of the door!.
I got a couple of water balloons and would throw thwm,next to her everytime she digged!.It took her 3 days to get the message and stop!.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

We just bought a brand new house with a landscaped backyard. Do my Texas 2-some dig it up, YUP!!! ALREADY!!! haha AND I want another Golden....haha =)


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

golden&hovawart said:


> I did!.
> Priska use to dig, in front of the back door.
> My Bathroom window was right on top of the door!.
> I got a couple of water balloons and would throw thwm,next to her everytime she digged!.It took her 3 days to get the message and stop!.


That is a FANTASTIC idea!


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I do not believe in having a dog inside 24/7 it is not healthy for the dog. My dogs are well trained. I can have our back gate open and my dogs know not to leave the yard. I've read on here about peoples dogs taking off when the front door is opened or left opened. Well i know for a fact i can do that with my dogs and they will not leave. So don't tell me i do not train my dogs i spend alot of time into training. Everyone who meets my dogs say the same they can't believe how well trained and behaved they are. They do get to come inside sometimes for an hour at the most. 

I cannot start doing obedience,thearpy etc till i move. It would seem pretty stupid to start obedience here for only 2-3 weeks then move. What happens if the training there is completely different then here, It would just cause more stress for Shelley having to learn the new training. I have got the best interest in Shelleys welfare, Not everyone have there dogs inside. Some people actually want there dogs to behave like dogs and act like dogs. You don't see a wild dog sleeping on a queen size bed you? wild dog sleeping inside a house? eatting expensive food? yes they sleep in holes,caves etc. My dogs are not missing out they have keenels put under cover away from rain,wind & sun. They get feed,fresh water everyday. They get the vet treatment they need. Just cause my dogs are not inside 24/7 doesn't mean there negelected,There much loved family pets. 
So you all suspect people to treat there pets like this lady
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh2hwwGTA_I part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_Llyp3Qv-s part 2

a dog is dog and should be treated and act like a dog. Dogs do not think like humans do, They do not seek out revenge, eg peeing and pooing on beds cause you boarded them for 4 days. I know Sheley is doing this cause of lack of exercise, stupid me for following the breeders advice. My dogs are my babies but they are to act and be treated like dogs not humans. Humans sleep inside on beds,dogs sleep outside in kennels, Nothing you say or do will ever change my ways. Most landlords in australia will not allow dogs inside there rental properties no matter how big or small they are. I know my dogs they like the cool they hate the heat, If there inside when the heater is on they want outside. You don't know what its like unless your in my shoes. So for those who say Shelley is untrained you are wrong she is trained better then most dogs in this town. Those that say she is unloved you are wrong.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

All I can say is, I feel very sorry for Shelley. No dog should have to live its entire life outside, being yelled at for digging, and being kicked and having rocks thrown at it.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't think anyone is saying she's untrained or unloved. What I've noticed is that you get frustrated with her and want her gone, and then you change your mind - on a weekly basis, it seems. This constant indecision can't be good for her.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Jackson'sMom said:


> All I can say is, I feel very sorry for Shelley. No dog should have to live its entire life outside, being yelled at for digging, and being kicked and having rocks thrown at it.


I absolutely agree with this.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

Not every dog is meant for ANY home.

I do honestly think there is a "perfect home" out there for every dog, we the humans just have to figure out where that may be. Appears she needs so much more than your family can provide for her. It really doesn't sound like Shelley is the dog meant for your home  as sad as that is for you to hear, you'll all be better off to rehome her into the right home for her. I had to do the same about a yr ago. Broke my heart, I still miss her, I still cry, still have all her pics, but it was just not the right home for her. I could not give her what she needed most to become the most excellent dog she could be.
Shelley deserves to be ALL that she can be, and in the right home, she can and will accomplish that. 
I do promise you that there is a dog out there that IS meant to be in your home, and I highly suggest looking into rescues for your next pupper, as they know their dogs well, and can find your next Companion that will fit in with your home life, should you want to get another dog.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> So for those who say Shelley is untrained you are wrong she is trained better then most dogs in this town. Those that say she is unloved you are wrong.



So I guess I don't understand. If she's such a perfect well trained dog, then why were you considering rehoming her and constantly posting about how frustrated you and your family are with her?

Sorry but you can't come on a forum and say that your dad kicks her and throws rocks at her, that she lives outdoors and digs when she's bored so you'd like to sell her.. then change your mind, and expect us to all be on board and agree that you should keep her. We want what is best for your dog, and living in that environment is, IMO not what is best for her. 

And you say that dogs are supposed to live outdoors because wild dogs do... but these are not wild dogs. They are pets.. domesticated dogs. I guess I just don't understand the point of having a pet if it is not a part of your homelife.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I've tried... and I nearly succeeded. But I can't just sit back and read this anymore.

First of all, these are domesticated dogs... not wild ones. They have been bred for centuries to be man's companion. Do I want a wolf sleeping on my bed? No. But my Golden Retriever is no wolf. Goldens are a breed with very strong ties to their people. As a general rule (though there are exceptions), they do not thrive as outside dogs. They pick up annoying little habits, like digging for instance, to help with their boredom. Over time they are likely to begin barking at anyone who walks by in the hopes of getting some attention. They are also highly likely to become skilled escape artists. Einstein has adapted to outdoor life, and from your description doesn't appear to be worse for the wear. But Shelly is not adapting. This isn't the proper setting for her.

Honestly, though, being an outdoor dog is the least of Shelly's problems. She has been kicked and had rocks thrown at her by your father. She has been smacked across the face repeatedly by your niece. You have repeatedly expressed fear for her safety in your house at the hands of your family members. And to top it off, this dog is being put in the middle of the constant tug-o-war of your emotions. Frustrated is the understatement of the year in this case. I've been frustrated with my dog. Everyone here has been. But you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who has repeatedly placed ads to have the dog placed. 

Every thread you post goes the same way. You start off talking about how unmanageable Shelly is. You rant about how she won't listen and is impossible to train. Then you throw in little tidbits about the mistreatment she is suffering by some family member or another and how you scream at her in "frustration." You say maybe your home isn't the best one for her. And then, after you've convinced us that you're right and we agree... what do you do? You completely reverse course. Tell us what a wonderful dog she is and how well trained. Then to top it all off, you tell all of us with happy, well adjusted dogs that we're doing everything wrong and you have it all figured out. It's ridiculous. And honestly, it strikes me as a cry for attention. I think what you're really looking for from post #1 is for all of us to tell you that the way you are treating Shelly is okay. When we don't you get angry and lash out. Well I'm sorry, but this isn't okay. Contact a local golden rescue and let them find this poor dog a proper home.

Julie and Jersey


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Julie that is exactly what I've been trying to say in a much less eloquent way. Thank you


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I've tried... and I nearly succeeded. But I can't just sit back and read this anymore.
> 
> First of all, these are domesticated dogs... not wild ones. They have been bred for centuries to be man's companion. Do I want a wolf sleeping on my bed? No. But my Golden Retriever is no wolf. Goldens are a breed with very strong ties to their people. As a general rule (though there are exceptions), they do not thrive as outside dogs. They pick up annoying little habits, like digging for instance, to help with their boredom. Over time they are likely to begin barking at anyone who walks by in the hopes of getting some attention. They are also highly likely to become skilled escape artists. Einstein has adapted to outdoor life, and from your description doesn't appear to be worse for the wear. But Shelly is not adapting. This isn't the proper setting for her.
> 
> ...


Julie hit it spot on. I totally agree.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I've tried... and I nearly succeeded. But I can't just sit back and read this anymore.
> 
> First of all, these are domesticated dogs... not wild ones. They have been bred for centuries to be man's companion. Do I want a wolf sleeping on my bed? No. But my Golden Retriever is no wolf. Goldens are a breed with very strong ties to their people. As a general rule (though there are exceptions), they do not thrive as outside dogs. They pick up annoying little habits, like digging for instance, to help with their boredom. Over time they are likely to begin barking at anyone who walks by in the hopes of getting some attention. They are also highly likely to become skilled escape artists. Einstein has adapted to outdoor life, and from your description doesn't appear to be worse for the wear. But Shelly is not adapting. This isn't the proper setting for her.
> 
> ...



Perfectly said, Julie.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Amen to that!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Please try to consider doing what is right for Shelly, and not what you emotionally want at this very moment. Her life has certainly not been a bowl of cherries, and she deserves it to be so much less stressful. Of course she is well trained, she is afraid of being hit, kicked or yelled at. She is trying to be good. I am sorry if this comes across as harsh, but I don't understand wanting to keep her if, normally, she is making everyone angry at her. It's just not fair to her!


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

I only want to tell you to protect your dog. It's heartbreaking to read about your Dad kicking and throwing things at her, and your niece treating her the same way. It IS your job to protect her. Please do it and get her out of that mess.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

Send her to me, I am looking for a female golden to love and have fun with my boys =) Prob shouldnt have said that, don't want to get anyone upset, but it UPSETS me when good people are looking for a golden to take care of and spoil, yet others have them and mistreat them. ALSO I totally disagree that there is a difference between a human or dog, I would take a bullet for either.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Julie..you said it perfectly..everyone else..you are correct, poor Shelly needs to go to a home that will love and appreciate her..she needs to be part of a family.


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## gil1075 (Jan 13, 2009)

I totally agree with Julie. 
It's time to be an adult and do what's right for Shelley, I'm sure there's a rescue close to you that would be willing to take Shelley and find that perfect home for her.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

You all aren't bloody listening i said my dad has stoped all that for crying out loud thats in the past get over it. My dad isn't doing anything with her now his leaving it all up to me. My niece has seized what she is doing now too. I'm not yelling at her what you can't even say Arhh to a dog now when you catch her/him doing something there not meant too. What when she digs a hole i'm meant to say good girl, No wander why all your dogs are runing out open doors there got no freedom. You follow every move they do to me thats just wrong. My dogs do not bark at everything or everyone i don't know where you got that from. For all your information Shelley was born and raised outside she does not know indoor life. You try owning a dog that does not want to play with toys at all. To her Einstein is her toy. I don't like to lock my dogs up like you all do. What you leave the house where does dog go straight in crate. At least my guys can run,poo and pee when they feel like, Not wait till there owner gets home to do it. I'm begining to hate this forum you all treat your dogs like babies, What you wipe there bum for them too. 
Like i said bring her indoors isn't going to train her not to dig, Even the proffessional trainers said your better off training them not to dig then lock them up indoors or kennel run. The way trainers see it as soon as there allowed out they dig a hole cause there not trained to not dig. If you can't get over the past thats your problem,stop bringing it up. You are all bad thinking that every dog of every breed has to be indoors, Not everyone likes such big dogs inside so get over it. This is the last post i'm doing on this stupid forum your all up tight and selfish.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

and a dog can be part of the family being an outdoor dog so there.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

I forsee the edit at the bottom of post #76 in the near future...history repeats itself

:hide:


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I could care less whether your dog is inside or outside. What bothers me is the dishonesty of this whole thing.


Jersey's Mom's post said it all....




Jersey's Mom said:


> ....Every thread you post goes the same way. You start off talking about how unmanageable Shelly is. You rant about how she won't listen and is impossible to train. Then you throw in little tidbits about the mistreatment she is suffering by some family member or another and how you scream at her in "frustration." You say maybe your home isn't the best one for her. And then, after you've convinced us that you're right and we agree... what do you do? You completely reverse course. Tell us what a wonderful dog she is and how well trained. Then to top it all off, you tell all of us with happy, well adjusted dogs that we're doing everything wrong and you have it all figured out. It's ridiculous. ......
> 
> Julie and Jersey


I mean really! What are we supposed to think. You aren't serious with anything...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

You are very selfish... Who"s to say Shelly doesnt piss your dad off again and he throws rocks at her again... What your dad did is abuse..plain and simple. Dont say a dog that has lived there whole life outside cant adapt to indoor living, because thats crap. We rescue breeder dogs all the time that have never ever seen the inside of a house and they have adapted very well to indoor living. Our dogs might not have the freedom that you so say, but they are loved and get TONS of attention they deserve and not mistreated. As for the digging ..that is what you call a dog being BORED. As for crates, mine are in there because of safety issues, which I might add they go in there crates during the day or night when im home by there choice. Shelly deserves a better life that what you are giving her and its a shame that you arent grown up enough to see this.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

And by golly, I'd rather have my dog crate trained and manner trained than have it s h i t and piss all over my house, then destroy it.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Not letting a dog dig by keeping it indoors or supervising outdoors does help the dog learn not to dig. It prevents the behavior from being reinforced and from becoming routine. If you're going to have an outdoor dog that is regularly unsupervised, your dog is going to learn to dig. What, do wild dogs not dig? Of course they do. Not that I think your Shelley is a wild dog, but just to borrow your rationale for the purpose of making my point.

In this thread, in your very first post, you brought up Shelley's safety. How are you saying that's now all in the past then? 

Please whatever you do, be kind to Shelley's spirit. You are her guardian.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Advice from Barkbusters in Australia. Just in case training in Australia is different.
http://www.barkbusters.com.au/index.htm
http://www.barkbusters.com.au/puppies.htm


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I am praying for Shelley at this point.

My dogs have never dug. They are busy and well loved.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Sounds like a bad situation all around, kids shouldn't be given dogs to look after on their own. Considering two days ago the dog was going to be placed because she was driving everyone crazy, causing problems with the other dogs and dad was 'sick' of her and she needed to go for her safety, and today, low and behold it's a well trained, well adjusted dog who isn't at risk of being abused..... 

YIKES.

And for the record, my dogs spend a lot of time outside, or in crates depending on the day and the weather, however they get their walks, training and so on. As well they have their fair share of couch time (or in Storee's case, hauling everything that isn't pinned down onto the couch). Goldens are far from wild dogs... and last time I was at the zoo, the wild dogs there were DIGGING. 

Lana


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Max would live outside when the weather is good, but that doesn't mean I won't let him in the house when he wants in. 
I'm starting to wonder if Shelley is real or just a figment of an imagination that needs to create drama


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Prayers for Shelley that she escapes her current 'living' conditions.


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## marleysmummy (Jul 11, 2008)

laprincessa said:


> Max would live outside when the weather is good, but that doesn't mean I won't let him in the house when he wants in.
> I'm starting to wonder if Shelley is real or just a figment of an imagination that needs to create drama


Well if she is real I truly hope she is safe and not being harmed. It makes me sick to my stomach that she is having rocks thrown at her and being kicked, even if it was a month ago, it's still not right.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

And a post this week stated that the father was "sick to death" of Shelley. Definitely not a good environment for that poor dog.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Marleys mummy said:


> Well if she is real I truly hope she is safe and not being harmed. It makes me sick to my stomach that she is having rocks thrown at her and being kicked, even if it was a month ago, it's still not right.


I agree completely. But there's just something off about this - it goes from she's having rocks thrown at her because she's so bad, to she's so well trained. It just isn't adding up.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> Prayers for Shelley that she escapes her current 'living' conditions.


 
You are evil ROFL! I bet we all get a 'piling on' warning pretty soon.. yikes!


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

AndyFarmer said:


> You are evil ROFL! I bet we all get a 'piling on' warning pretty soon.. yikes!


 it would be my first!
LOL


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

AndyFarmer said:


> You are evil ROFL! I bet we all get a 'piling on' warning pretty soon.. yikes!


I'm not evil. I just have no tolerance for animal abuse or mistreatment.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

> You try owning a dog that does not want to play with toys at all. To her Einstein is her toy. I don't like to lock my dogs up like you all do. What you leave the house where does dog go straight in crate. At least my guys can run,poo and pee when they feel like, Not wait till there owner gets home to do it.


The majority of my fosters who don't know how to play with a toy act that way because they have never had a toy, or have never had a human engage them in play. They have no idea, which is very sad.

Just an FYI, my dogs don't go in a crate when we are gone. They normally are lounging on their leather sofa or leather recliner, in the house. They don't want to be outside unless I am with them, because they are part of MY pack. They want to be with me, and I want to be with them.

Some people have posted some problems that they might be having, that are normally short term, and you are grabbing at those problems and trying to make them look like bad pet owners. Except they hitting or screaming at their dogs because they don't like them. 

Shelly deserves better.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> I'm not evil. I just have no tolerance for animal abuse or mistreatment.


I totally understand. We rescue, we get it!


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

Wow, not sure how to say this but, people who abuse dogs will usually do it again when their patience has reached it's peak 

You have 2 other dogs, how are they treated? Shelley does notice the difference.

Your dog is BORED!!! Even a well trained dog WILL be destructive and show other BAD BEHAVIORS when bored!!! She needs MENTAL STIMULATION as well. If I left my babies outside all day, they'd make a mess of the yard, would chew my sons toys, I know 2 would escape, and yes they would begin to BARK at EVERYTHING! 

So it would make sense to either 

1.) Fulfill your dogs NEEDS so she isn't BORED or

2.) Rehome her to someone who CAN fulfill HER NEEDS

it's as simple as that. 

There is NOTHING wrong with crating!!! They LIKE it, it's their DEN, makes them feel safe and secure.

Can not understand for the life of me WHY you would act this way towards members of this forum that are trying to HELP you and Shelley! Non of us agree about everything all of the time, but facts are facts! Dogs are PACK animals, they don't do so well left on their own, they NEED to be with their pack, which for most of us IS us humans, lol! They NEED physical and MENTAL stimulation. Shelley is TRYING her best to tell you she NEEDS more! It's up to you to give her that more! Group is just telling you the facts, GIVE her more, or let her go to a home where she will get the more that she needs! You just need to love her enough to do right by her!

Don't need to get all mad and talk bad to the very people trying to help the situation out, that's not going to do anyone, especially Shelley, any good


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## SamFox (Apr 7, 2008)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> Hi everyone i've decided to rehome Shelley its going to be sad to see her go but i have to think about Einstein and my chihuahua too. Shelley is just to ruff with them no matter what i do or say Shelley will just not listen. Einstein is getting annoyed with her biting his back legs jumping on him,not letting him have any rest. So i think its best if she went to another home with younger dogs and be allowed inside the home. Shelley also will not leave Rascal my chihuahua alone she keeps hitting him with her paw and trying to jump on him so for the safety and well being for all involved Shelley will be rehomed. I miss her greatly but its for the best for all involved. My dad is absolutely sick of her so its for the safety of her to go too. I'm in tears writing this but i know i'm doing the right thing.


You stated yourself in your original post that Shelley just doesn't listen & would be better off in another home where she is allowed in the home... A day later she is the most well trained dog on the forum & we are all CRAZY for allowing our pets in our homes? I'm confused! 

If Shelley is staying what is going to happen to Einstein & Rascal? I thought because of Shelley, they were in danger?

I agree with some of the other posts, I think you are seeking attention and are using your "pets" to get it. I have never replied to any of your posts becuase I have never had anything nice to say. Now that you have told off wonderful members of this forum for offering you sound advice (that you needed!) I have no reason to hold my tongue. Maybe this is not the best place for you. I wish your dogs well.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> Hi everyone i've decided to rehome Shelley its going to be sad to see her go but i have to think about Einstein and my chihuahua too. Shelley is just to ruff with them no matter what i do or say Shelley will just not listen. Einstein is getting annoyed with her biting his back legs jumping on him,not letting him have any rest. So i think its best if she went to another home with younger dogs and be allowed inside the home. Shelley also will not leave Rascal my chihuahua alone she keeps hitting him with her paw and trying to jump on him so for the safety and well being for all involved Shelley will be rehomed. I miss her greatly but its for the best for all involved. My dad is absolutely sick of her so its for the safety of her to go too. I'm in tears writing this but i know i'm doing the right thing.


This is the same dog that's so incredibly well trained? Something isn't adding up here.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

None of my three are locked in crates, only one will wander if let out off leash but he will only do that if were watching and can chase after him, if a gate blows open and were not outside watching, he won't go. I am not one of the awesome training people on the forum, most would think my dogs very poorly trained but they are perfect for our lifestyle and what we expect of them. Obviously, from your posts, Shelley is not fitting into your families lifestyle, that is why it is a problem. If you would consider rescue they could find a family whose lifestyle she DOES fit into. As much as you dislike us on the forum, I hope you'll consider giving her a chance to find where she fits in. Two of mine were outdoor dogs but thrived and become the perfect family pet, aside from an occasional chewed shoe, once brought in amongst their family. Please reconsider.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

PeanutsMom said:


> None of my three are locked in crates, only one will wander if let out off leash but he will only do that if were watching and can chase after him, if a gate blows open and were not outside watching, he won't go. I am not one of the awesome training people on the forum, most would think my dogs very poorly trained but they are perfect for our lifestyle and what we expect of them. Obviously, from your posts, Shelley is not fitting into your families lifestyle, that is why it is a problem. If you would consider rescue they could find a family whose lifestyle she DOES fit into. As much as you dislike us on the forum, I hope you'll consider giving her a chance to find where she fits in. Two of mine were outdoor dogs but thrived and become the perfect family pet, aside from an occasional chewed shoe, once brought in amongst their family. Please reconsider.


 You are a sweet person! You put that very nicely, much more so than I could have.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Erf, I have to say this for the sake of my conscience. Doesn't this forum exist to help people, not bash them? Even if you disagree, you can kindly re-direct her. She admitted that she had familial problems, but according to her they were solved when she talked to her Dad. So if someone made a mistake or had a problem but then fixed it, can't we move on and quit bringing it up??

It's obvious to me that the OP is looking for some advice and it is in her heart to do the right thing for Shelley. She has a post where she is trying to get advice on how to train Shelley using positive methods because she was willing to recognize that she was doing it wrong. I think that is great, don't you? She talks about in multiple posts wanting to get involved in multiple training disciplines (like obedience and therapy work). Wow, great for her and Shelley.

Now, I am a fan of crate training. I am _guessing_ that the OP knocked it because someone commented that a dog left outdoors all day would become bored--but how would a dog in a crate all day (or at least during the work day) be any better off boredom-wise? Or inside for that matter? Geez, if the weather is right I thing it is much more boring staying inside than outside--but I suppose I'm human.

So, I know everyone has their own opinion and that is great. I agree that kicking a dog and throwing things at a dog as well as a child slapping the dog on the nose are bad things for the dog. However, if those issues have been resolved where is the problem? Shelley was digging and picked up some other behaviors, but the OP admitted and recognized that she was given bad advice. If the walks have been resumed and the behaviors diminished because of it--again I ask wherein lies the problem? If these issues haven't been resolved than I would agree that re-homing may be the best option--OR why not moving out of Mom and Dad's house?


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## AmbersDad (Dec 25, 2007)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> and a dog can be part of the family being an outdoor dog so there.


 
I think this pretty much sums up the mental and quite possibly the physical age of the poster. "So There", is quite a statement and to add an additional post just to try to get the last word in seems to sum up the maturity level. of the poster here. I have a large number of clients who are addicted to drama. This usually happens when they grow up in a family that has a high level of drama on a day to day basis. From previous posts along with the line of this one, this certainly comes across as being the case as well. I would personally say to let the issue drop and don't feed into the threads OP anymore at all. The continued posts only feed the OP. I certainly hope someday someone takes good cafre of that pup and removes it from that "home" to place where it can be treated decently and no have to be worried for it's own safety.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Edit: See post above. I agree.


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

Well she said she was trying to sell the dog. IMO (and I am sure this could be a cultural thing, so I am not saying I am right, this is just how I view dogs) they are not chattel, to be sold like a car.

Give her to a rescue so they can find a family that wants her. I am sorry for your pain, I'm sure this is difficult, but please think of her best interest at all times.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Well quite a few people buy dogs. _Most all of us did._ Even rescues cost a pretty penny. Many shelter mixed breeds are cheaper....you can usually just pick them up as long as they are fixed. I guess they are a "sale' item. 

Really, whether the dog is sold or given away, outside or inside is so not the issue.

If Shelly was sold to a better home, I'm for it. If Shelly is outside and not digging, well adjusted and creating no problems....fantastic.

In my opinon, the real problem is Shelly's owner facing up to responsibility. I wish maturity happened fast....but it normally doesn't.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> In my opinon, the real problem is Shelly's owner facing up to responsibility. I wish maturity happened fast....but it normally doesn't.



I don't know how old the OP is, but I know even when I was very young being a huge animal lover from the time I could crawl after my kitty as a baby, I would have done what was right for my pets over my own wants. But then I'm just one of those silly people who enjoys having my wild animals sleeping in my bed at night. 


And I agree there is nothing wrong with "selling" an animal (rehoming with a fee basically) but I think what everyone was pushing the rescue route for was a rescue will be more likely to match Shelley with a suitable home where she would thrive, not match her with the first family that could come up with $500.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

missmarstar said:


> I don't know how old the OP is, but I know even when I was very young being a huge animal lover from the time I could crawl after my kitty as a baby, I would have done what was right for my pets over my own wants. But then I'm just one of those silly people who enjoys having my wild animals sleeping in my bed at night.
> 
> 
> And I agree there is nothing wrong with "selling" an animal (rehoming with a fee basically) but I think what everyone was pushing the rescue route for was a rescue will be more likely to match Shelley with a suitable home where she would thrive, not match her with the first family that could come up with $500.


Rescue would be nice, but if you think about it...if someone is going to pay $500, would that mean some committment? It could.

According to what I see the OP is 24. My son is 25. I wish I could ram some maturity into him to... How do you do it? I wish I knew. I remember when I was of that type of age, at the time good commonsense didn't stick, but later it all came back.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> I don't know how old the OP is,


The op's profile states she is 24.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

AndyFarmer said:


> The op's profile states she is 24.



Wow. By some of her posts here I would have thought she was 14 or so. I'm not trying to be funny.. I'm serious. lol


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

missmarstar said:


> Wow. By some of her posts here I would have thought she was 14 or so. I'm not trying to be funny.. I'm serious. lol


I thought the same at first.


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## rictic (Feb 16, 2009)

this thread should give us all pause for thought.

it is obvious that the good advice from forum members is not being taken on board.
it is also obvious to me that the advice is being taken as criticism, it was from the word go.

the OP does seem to have issues and seems very young or at least not mature.

maybe the actions of the family toward the dog have been a mirror of the actions of the family towards each other. and it is the established behaviour patterns of disfunction.

i think the dog is in a very unsafe enviroment to be honest.
it has no emotional stability at all. the poor thing must be so confused and trying hard to pleas people who move the goalposts every other day.

re: kennels and crates.

the Op seems to imagine a crate is a prison where we lock up our dogs.
does she not read and digest the previous posts or even read that the dogs, properly crate trained with respect and understanding come to love their crates.

it is their personal apartment were they say what they do and are safe and comfortable.

i have remainded silent on this thread for too long.

young lady do the decent thing and rehome your shelley. do not look for financial reward accept that you have made a gross error of judgement and do the best thing for the dog.

if this was a baby we were talking about child protection would be there by now. your dog has the same rights of a decent happy fulfilled and safe life. indoors or out.

if i knew your address i would report you the local animal protection society myself.

rant over.


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## rictic (Feb 16, 2009)

Lucky's mom said:


> Rescue would be nice, but if you think about it...if someone is going to pay $500, would that mean some committment? It could.
> 
> According to what I see the OP is 24. My son is 25. I wish I could ram some maturity into him to... How do you do it? I wish I knew. I remember when I was of that type of age, at the time good commonsense didn't stick, but later it all came back.


 
it could mean commitment and a great home but it didnt in the OP's case. and i am afraid shelley would be sold to the first one to wave aussie dollars at her.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> Wow. By some of her posts here I would have thought she was 14 or so. I'm not trying to be funny.. I'm serious. lol


Yeah I know. Reminds me a bit of Ilovemysmarty...he was around 14 or so.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

rictic said:


> it could mean commitment and a great home but it didnt in the OP's case. and i am afraid shelley would be sold to the first one to wave aussie dollars at her.


Frankly, I just think something needs to be done. The argument of whether its "ethical" to sell your dog (which is a hypocritical at best since most people on this forum have bought their dog) and whether a dog can be happy outside or inside is just distracting from the main issue. It just doens't sound like things are compatible at all for Shelly and the family..


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

At the risk of being flamed here.... I have a couple of friends in Australia, and their dogs are kept outside. Brought in when the weather is bad, but primarily outside dwellers. My brother lives in far northern Wisconsin farm country - most people there keep their dogs outside, only bringing them in when the weather is hazardous to them. 

I can sense the struggle in the OP... could it possibly be that her family wants their home a certain way, are adamant about it, therefore causing stress and struggles. My parents were always the type - dogs are not allowed on the furniture, dogs will not change the way I do things, etc etc. They have mellowed quite a bit in their old age, with their dogs now sleeping in bed with them, and pretty much running the show LOL. I gave up the idea of ever having a Better Homes and Gardens home and yard when I chose to have multiple dogs. My husky has been working on a moat around our house for two years - when he is done we may add some gators LOL.

Just offering another perspective... it does sound like she is trying with Shelley, and loves her very much.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Dreammom said:


> At the risk of being flamed here.... I have a couple of friends in Australia, and their dogs are kept outside. Brought in when the weather is bad, but primarily outside dwellers. My brother lives in far northern Wisconsin farm country - most people there keep their dogs outside, only bringing them in when the weather is hazardous to them.
> 
> I can sense the struggle in the OP... could it possibly be that her family wants their home a certain way, are adamant about it, therefore causing stress and struggles. My parents were always the type - dogs are not allowed on the furniture, dogs will not change the way I do things, etc etc. They have mellowed quite a bit in their old age, with their dogs now sleeping in bed with them, and pretty much running the show LOL. I gave up the idea of ever having a Better Homes and Gardens home and yard when I chose to have multiple dogs. My husky has been working on a moat around our house for two years - when he is done we may add some gators LOL.
> 
> Just offering another perspective... it does sound like she is trying with Shelley, and loves her very much.


I think the problem some of us are having is that she's posted this same thing over and over - one week Shelley is the best dog in the world and can do no wrong, and the next week everything is horrible and the dog has to go. I think she just needs to make up her mind - you can't make a decision, then change your mind, then change it back, over and over and not have people start to question your motives.


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

laprincessa said:


> I think the problem some of us are having is that she's posted this same thing over and over - one week Shelley is the best dog in the world and can do no wrong, and the next week everything is horrible and the dog has to go. I think she just needs to make up her mind - you can't make a decision, then change your mind, then change it back, over and over and not have people start to question your motives.


 
I agree the indecision is not a good thing for anyone involved... I guess the point I was trying to make, in maybe too many words, is that she may be getting a lot of pressure from her parents to make Shelley a perfect dog overnight, and we all know that is not possible.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Dreammom said:


> I agree the indecision is not a good thing for anyone involved... I guess the point I was trying to make, in maybe too many words, is that she may be getting a lot of pressure from her parents to make Shelley a perfect dog overnight, and we all know that is not possible.



According to her, Shelley already is a perfect dog, and none of us know what we're talking about.. and how could we? We all have untrained wild animals.

:curtain:


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## riddle03 (Jun 9, 2005)

By the post I would have thought much younger than 24. I honestly thought maybe a teenager.


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## cannondog (Oct 10, 2008)

This is just so sad...this poor dog! I would agree that from the posts this person comes off as VERY young. It just amazes me how she makes this post about giving her up, then comes back and has to justify everything...she probably won't post anymore, but I just feel sorry for the dog. Such lack of maturity and ownership for this dog!


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

missmarstar said:


> We all have untrained wild animals.
> 
> :curtain:


 
Well I know I do, but I love 'em all anyway .


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Dreammom said:


> Well I know I do, but I love 'em all anyway .



Hey my dogs are better trained than my boyfriend is


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## cannondog (Oct 10, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> Hey my dogs are better trained than my boyfriend is


Haha...that's funny


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

And my dogs mind better than my 19 year old son.......


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## Dreammom (Jan 14, 2009)

Would those dog training DVD's I have here collecting dust work on my hubby?


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Dreammom said:


> Would those dog training DVD's I have here collecting dust work on my hubby?



Probably not.. men need much more intensive training than a DVD can offer.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I've tried... and I nearly succeeded. But I can't just sit back and read this anymore.
> 
> First of all, these are domesticated dogs... not wild ones. They have been bred for centuries to be man's companion. Do I want a wolf sleeping on my bed? No. But my Golden Retriever is no wolf. Goldens are a breed with very strong ties to their people. As a general rule (though there are exceptions), they do not thrive as outside dogs. They pick up annoying little habits, like digging for instance, to help with their boredom. Over time they are likely to begin barking at anyone who walks by in the hopes of getting some attention. They are also highly likely to become skilled escape artists. Einstein has adapted to outdoor life, and from your description doesn't appear to be worse for the wear. But Shelly is not adapting. This isn't the proper setting for her.
> 
> ...


Bravo!!! I honestly wasn't even going to participate in this thread because it frustrates the hell out of me, but then I saw your response and I just had to say that I couldn't have said it any better myself. It really does seem like a cry for attention and this dog needs to be placed in a rescue/foster home immediately.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> And my dogs mind better than my 19 year old son.......


No comment


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

AndyFarmer said:


> No comment


LOL..... That's ok I wont get rid of him either since he is un trainable and doesnt behave.....


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Sometimes DH forgets to pick up his dirty clothes off the bathroom floor, even after I tell him to pick them up multiple times, and leaves dirty dishes around the house. Other than that, he is very well trained. Should I get rid of him??? LOL


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## Waggily Tail (Jan 11, 2009)

"Sometimes DH forgets to pick up his dirty clothes off the bathroom floor, even after I tell him to pick them up multiple times"

Well, my dog is really good at picking up DH's dirty clothes off the floor. If only she would put in hamper before redesigning them!


I don't post much, but just had to here. Shelley's story is very sad. Way too many factors going against her.

I think the OP knows in her heart that the situation right now isn't a good one for Shelley. And that's why she keeps reaching out to the people she trusts (you all). But she's conflicted...maybe getting love and attention from her pets that she's not getting elsewhere. Then add in the maturity level of all involved, lack of family support and the normal stress that comes with raising a high energy pup. This makes it a roller coaster ride of emotions for her and even harder to think about finding another home for Shelley. 

Hopefully, she will be able to get over being defensive, really think about your advice objectively, and put Shelley's needs before her own.

OP, someday you wll be in a position to offer a dog a loving and nurturing home. Please consider that, right now at this point in your life, Shelley needs more than you can provide. And letting the experts, like a GR rescue group, find her the home she needs, would be the biggest gift you could ever give her.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

I am not going to comment on Shelley as others here have said it better than I could have. My query is about Rascal. Isn't he a Chihuahua? Does he live outside too?


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## kirst1 (May 30, 2008)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> I am not going to comment on Shelley as others here have said it better than I could have. My query is about Rascal. Isn't he a Chihuahua? Does he live outside too?


He is a chihuahua, I think he lives inside. I too am unable to say what i really feel, but it does me upset thinking about Shelly.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

kirst1 said:


> He is a chihuahua, I think he lives inside. I too am unable to say what i really feel, but it does me upset thinking about Shelly.



So apparently the chihuahua is not considered a "wild animal" but the Goldens are lol


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Erf, I have to say this for the sake of my conscience. Doesn't this forum exist to help people, not bash them? Even if you disagree, you can kindly re-direct her. She admitted that she had familial problems, but according to her they were solved when she talked to her Dad. So if someone made a mistake or had a problem but then fixed it, can't we move on and quit bringing it up??


We all tried to offer her help and she never, ever took advice. Her posts always contradicted themselves and they confused the heck out me. One day her dad is throwing rocks, her niece is hitting Shelley...then the next it's all over and she is doing positive reinforcements. Then, I swear, the next week it starts allll over again. I for one am glad someone finally said something.

I just hope Shelley ends up being okay!


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## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

I know we all have our opinions but can we please give this girl some positive advice and encouragement? I think deep down, Tara does want what is best for Shelley, otherwise she would not have posted. We need to support her for Shelley's sake without the criticism. Tara, I don't think you are a bad Mum, but there are circumstances here beyond yours or Shelley's control and you have obviously searched deep in your soul to come to your decision in the best interest of you and Shelley. Give Shelley a big hug and I am sure you will do what you feel is right. I think You have had some bad advice which has not helped.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I hope you will reconsider not giving her up. She sounds like she needs to be in a home with someone that will give her consistant training and not keep changing. I wont get into if the dogs should be in the house or not. Some countries may be different than mine but I would like my dogs to be with me no matter where I live. Mine do not go in crates when we are gone, they have their beds, the floor or couch to lay on and play with each other. All are happy and have plenty of running and playing time each and every day. 

*Please go back and take a look at all of your own threads from when you joined until today and you will see why we are so confused and tired of hearing the same excuses and different stories about what works or not work with Shelley.* One day she is good then the next bad. None of this critisism is meant to be mean but constructive so you can learn. You ask for advice and we give it and you get mad if you dont like it. 
We have talked in chat many times and you have said these same complaints and we have given you alot of advice then but you didnt follow it or agree with something so you ignored it. There have been professional trainers that have offered you adviced that you dont agree with and blow off as they dont know what they are talking about. 

Please reconsider rehoming Shelley for her sake and yours. *WE* are their caretakers and it is our duty to take care of them and love them and to do the best for them. Not to be selfish and to do what we want even if it is not in their best interest.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

PJD001 said:


> I know we all have our opinions but can we please give this girl some positive advice and encouragement? I think deep down, Tara does want what is best for Shelley, otherwise she would not have posted. We need to support her for Shelley's sake without the criticism. Tara, I don't think you are a bad Mum, but there are circumstances here beyond yours or Shelley's control and you have obviously searched deep in your soul to come to your decision in the best interest of you and Shelley. Give Shelley a big hug and I am sure you will do what you feel is right. I think You have had some bad advice which has not helped.



I kept my mouth shut in every single one of the OP's threads until this one. All I saw time and time again was the OP asking questions, lots of helpful advice and encouragement given, and then the OP turns around and tells everyone that the advice is wrong and she doesn't need help because her dog is fine and well behaved, etc... If someone asks for advice then turns around and bites everyone's heads off for giving it, then I don't feel sorry for them. At the center of all this is Shelley, who in that home has been abused plain and simple. In my mind, I applauded when this thread began because I knew Shelley would finally get a loving home that she deserved, that would put the time and effort into making her the best dog she could be... and when the OP (once again) flip flopped and decided she'd keep the dog in that environment, I had no choice but to speak my mind. I'm sorry if anything I've said in this thread has come off harshly, but I stand by everything.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> I kept my mouth shut in every single one of the OP's threads until this one. All I saw time and time again was the OP asking questions, lots of helpful advice and encouragement given, and then the OP turns around and tells everyone that the advice is wrong and she doesn't need help because her dog is fine and well behaved, etc... If someone asks for advice then turns around and bites everyone's heads off for giving it, then I don't feel sorry for them. At the center of all this is Shelley, who in that home has been abused plain and simple. In my mind, I applauded when this thread began because I knew Shelley would finally get a loving home that she deserved, that would put the time and effort into making her the best dog she could be... and when the OP (once again) flip flopped and decided she'd keep the dog in that environment, I had no choice but to speak my mind. I'm sorry if anything I've said in this thread has come off harshly, but I stand by everything.


I don't think you were harsh at all Marlene. I so agree.


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## spruce (Mar 13, 2008)

wish she'd stick around & get assurances that placing Shelly is OK, sometimes the time or dog may not be right. I'm sure people here could help/give advice in placing (anyone know Australia?) 

I'm really hoping for Shelly


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I think she's been reassured over and over that she's made the right decision to rehome Shelley, only to turn around and change her mind the next day. I don't think anyone has actively criticized her, but you can't keep saying one thing one day and something else the next and not expect people to tire of it. I really feel bad for poor Shelley, she must think her head is upside down with all this flip flopping around.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> We all tried to offer her help and she never, ever took advice. Her posts always contradicted themselves and they confused the heck out me.


Has anybody thought this might be a troll?

This poster is doing EXACTLY what they do.

I hope it is .... and there's no Shelly at all.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I hope it is a troll..and theres no Shelly......


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I just wanted to add a note about the selling your dog for money. Opinion seems to be divided on this issue. 

My opinion is this: if I couldn't keep my dogs, whom I love very very much, there is no way I would ask for cash in order to find a good home for them. They have very good pedigrees so would be worth something, but after approaching their breeder, I would definitely go to the GR rescue for my area or let them go to the best possible home for them. 

Why would I want to take money when the future happiness of my dogs is involved???

IMO advertising dogs in the newspaper or on the internet for cash is just plain WRONG! Let your dog be taken by the Golden Retriever rescue who will assess your dog and place it in the best possible home for them.... its a no-brainer!!!!!!

This isn't meant as a particular criticism of the OP


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

if I ever could not afford to care for my dogs or had to go to a nursing home where I couldn't bring them (Heaven forbid) I would surrender them to a rescue.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

When you surrender your dog to a rescue, do you get to know where they go and how they're doing?

I would never in a million years ever give my Daisy up, but I'm sitting here trying to imagine it and it doesn't feel good. Major trust factor


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Has anybody thought this might be a troll?
> 
> This poster is doing EXACTLY what they do.
> 
> I hope it is .... and there's no Shelly at all.


Unfortunately I think she is real, she's been a board member for a long time and we have seen pictures of Shelley as a puppy and growing up, all with the same things in the background of the pictures.

I think this young lady has a disability and gets frustrated easily. I really hope she tries to do better for Shelley and Einstein.


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## Jerseygirl (Jan 22, 2009)

I remember that the poster once told us something about having a disability...
That explains somthing but doesn't make it less dramatic....


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## cannondog (Oct 10, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> I think this young lady has a disability and gets frustrated easily. I really hope she tries to do better for Shelley and Einstein.


I agree - I think there is a disability and some maturity issues involved with this.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Maybe this thread needs to be closed? Doesn't feel right to be publicly speculating on whether or not she has a disability and if so, how it's impacting what we read here. Plus, any posts on the subject likely will only serve to irritate the OP even more... ? ? ? Seems like the conversation has moved awfully far off topic, so maybe it needs to end?

I dunno. Just my two cents. Bottom line is that regardless of how things are handled, I'm sure we all agree that we want the best for Shelley and the other dogs!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> When you surrender your dog to a rescue, do you get to know where they go and how they're doing?


That eats me up, which is why I have like four backup plans in case something happens to me. I'm lucky that my parents could easily take Comet if both I and my SO died or somehow couldn't take care of him. And if my parents can't do it for some reason, I have several families after that.

If I were wealthier, I'd set up a small trust to go with him so my friends wouldn't be financially burdened by taking him. But since my folks are alive and healthy, they can just deal.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Maybe this thread needs to be closed? Doesn't feel right to be publicly speculating on whether or not she has a disability and if so, how it's impacting what we read here. Plus, any posts on the subject likely will only serve to irritate the OP even more... ? ? ? Seems like the conversation has moved awfully far off topic, so maybe it needs to end?
> 
> I dunno. Just my two cents. Bottom line is that regardless of how things are handled, I'm sure we all agree that we want the best for Shelley and the other dogs!


I agree. I think this horse is dead and we all need to move on.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Ardeagold said:


> Has anybody thought this might be a troll?
> 
> This poster is doing EXACTLY what they do.
> 
> I hope it is .... and there's no Shelly at all.


I've thought that for a while but didn't want to say so. I did say a while back that I wondered if Shelley was real. In a way, I hope not. 
I was thinking that there's probably someone in a basement laughing their heads off at the people who are posting in this thread -all 14 pages of it.


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## Jerseygirl (Jan 22, 2009)

Could be....but were are those pics coming from then?


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

You can find anything on the internet. Yes, it would be an elaborate hoax but I've seen worse.


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## DanielleH (Nov 4, 2006)

missmarstar said:


> Probably not.. men need much more intensive training than a DVD can offer.


What about a shock collar? lol..


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## Nikki Boy (Mar 14, 2009)

Hey she does not show up on the member's list anymore - probably should let this go. 20 somethings that use IM all the time would probably talk like that - not surprising to me.


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## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Maybe this thread needs to be closed? Doesn't feel right to be publicly speculating on whether or not she has a disability and if so, how it's impacting what we read here. Plus, any posts on the subject likely will only serve to irritate the OP even more... ? ? ? Seems like the conversation has moved awfully far off topic, so maybe it needs to end?
> 
> I dunno. Just my two cents. Bottom line is that regardless of how things are handled, I'm sure we all agree that we want the best for Shelley and the other dogs!


 I totally agree. It seems some people are trying to keep it going with some very unpleasant suggestions. I have talked to GO 12 on a few occasions and believe wholeheartedly that Shelley exists! I think we need to be mindful of a persons state of mind as well. Public ridicule of a person's mental and physical state e.g disability, has no relation to the original post or place on this forum. She came here for support. Close it please mod???


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Nikki Boy said:


> Hey she does not show up on the member's list anymore - probably should let this go. 20 somethings that use IM all the time would probably talk like that - not surprising to me.


Yes, her name is still on the members list. GRF does not delete members; it is the members choice to come back or not.


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