# Teenager or Bad Trainers?



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

So last night we (my boyfriend and I) had our first Foundation for Field Dogs class and I'm really excited for it. I can tell Oliver is going to really enjoy this and I think he'll do really well. Bernie, on the other hand....was on another planet. He was bouncing off the walls, barking/whining/panting. We couldn't get him focused for more than 10 seconds. At one point the instructor even asked we had gone to basic obedience (a requirement for the class) . Oliver and Bernie just graduated from the same obedience class, but you'd never know it by there differences in behavior. I've come to the conclusion that we've messed up Bernie. He has selective hearing. We say sit and depending on the circumstance and how Bernie is feeling he'll sit or he won't - sometimes while blatantly staring you in the eyes. To address this we've been doing compulsive training where we lift on the leash or push on his butt to get him into a sit if he doesn't listen. We've been doing this for about a month now and no progress whatsoever. He does this with almost every command except for wait (we actually taught this command correctly). My question is - what do we do? Do we start back from square one and reteach sit..and all the other commands? How do we teach it so that he gets it in his head that when we give a command he HAS to listen. My boyfriend is about ready to quit the hunting class, but I told him both he and Bernie can do this and it'll be great bonding for the both of them it'll just take some hard work! Bernie will be starting a version of Bentleys Bootcamp  very soon..as soon as we figure out how to retrain him the RIGHT way. Any suggestions would be really helpful. I know the only way to get Bernie under control in a distracted environment is to have rock solid basic commands to rely on.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

To me, it sounds like the teenager stage. Oliver just isn't quite in it yet. Just keep working harder every day on training and you will get through this.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

*patience, repetition and consistency.* Also, try not to feed him the meal before class (or maybe only half) and exercise him a little so he has some energy and is somewhat hungry and his attention is on you. Have his kibble with you in your pocket. 
As far as sit and other commands go always repeat them no matter where you are and what he is doing.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

I use to force Diego to sit out of frustration, but my trainer told me not to do that. Diego used to be exactly like this!! By pushing their butt down it teaches them they don't have to think and listen to your commands. Reteach the sit, by raising a piece of food over his head. If I know that Diego is going to have a hard time listening because of a distraction, I put food in my hand, and do my hand signal.

He's almost perfect now. Occasionally he will not listen, so I either walk away, or if I'm out on a walk, turn my back to him. Don't pay any attention to him, and turn you back the second you see him not listening.

I think the biggest thing that has helped me is random reinforcement. He'll never know when the reward is coming, so he works extra hard for me.
I think it is mentioned in this video...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

If you physically place him in a sit, make sure you immediately praise him, then ask for the behavior again. If he does it on his own this time, reward.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I know the only way to get Bernie under control in a distracted environment is to have rock solid basic commands to rely on.


Not necessarily.... there are two things that may be going on.

1. If Bernie is still spastic and unfocused in a controlled and non-distracting environment (quiet boring room at home), then it is the training.

2. If Bernie is like all dogs and an OTCH at home but a jd in public, then this is a combination of him being a very social-hyperreactive-enthusiastic teenager and possibly a sign that he needs more bridgework.

Bridgework - means consistently through the week, gradually training him in slightly more distractable but manageable/controlled environments to build up his working focus. 

This means that you may train him 3 days at home and take him 2-3 evenings to a quiet storefront or empty parking lot to work on training. Then building up to training at that storefront on busier days. Then building up to training inside the store on quiet evenings. Then building up to training in the store when things are busier. 

Basically know what the dog can handle now and always challenge him while making it very easy for him to be successful. Dogs learn when they are successful 80-90% of the time. When it's down to under 50%, that's generally them learning to blow you off. 

^ My opinion, anyway.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

How old is Bernie? How was he in the obedience class you took as compared to Oliver? Are Bernie and Oliver related? Is he from a field based pedigree?

How motivated is he by food? Praise? Is he generally slow to respond or quick? Does he tolerate pressure or does he quickly fold and give in?

I suspect that Bernie is giving you "the paw". He is saying that he knows the command but he does not care. When a dog looks you in the eye, listens to the command that he already knows, and then does what he wants is an independent thinker. 

To find out if he is an indepent boy - and you should call your breeder and talk to a professional field trainer. Get a couple of opinions about him. 

I have found that I need to up the ante with my independent dogs and it was not about giving better treats or repeating the command or retraining. It was enforcing the command that was given.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Megora said:


> Not necessarily.... there are two things that may be going on.
> 
> 1. If Bernie is still spastic and unfocused in a controlled and non-distracting environment (quiet boring room at home), then it is the training.
> 
> ...


Great advise. You may be going too far, too fast for him. 

My opinion... if he is behaving as you are saying, I would put him back in the car, in his crate. His behavior shouldn't allow him to be rewarded in any way. If he can settle down, take him out, keep him far from all the action, and ask for a few easy behaviors (sit, down, etc). If he can't handle even that, back in the crate he goes. If he can handle it, move closer, same easy behaviors, repeat, repeat, repeat! 

You may even want to pull him from the class for now. But this doesn't mean that he shouldn't come with you and start to learn how to behave in that situation, especially since there are two dogs and two of you. Then there is no pressure on anyone to rush him, no pressure from the instructor who may be frustrated and trying to get the class moving. 

Good luck!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Megora said:


> 2. If Bernie is like all dogs and an OTCH at home but a jd in public, then this is a combination of him being a very social-hyperreactive-enthusiastic teenager and possibly a sign that he needs more bridgework.


This is Bernie to the T. It looks like our issue is having too big a gap between our training environments. Going from minimal distractions to overload of distractions. Thank your very much for your advice. 

Will definitely be doing this:
*This means that you may train him 3 days at home and take him 2-3 evenings to a quiet storefront or empty parking lot to work on training. Then building up to training at that storefront on busier days. Then building up to training inside the store on quiet evenings. Then building up to training in the store when things are busier. *


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Leslie B said:


> How old is Bernie? How was he in the obedience class you took as compared to Oliver? Are Bernie and Oliver related? Is he from a field based pedigree?


Bernie is 8 months old. Typically in our obedience class he'd be overstimulated for the first few minutes, but we could bring him back down to earth and then he'd work with my boyfriend really well. Oliver would focus on me 90% of the time right from the beginning. They're not related. Oliver has a field and conformation pedigree. Bernie was from a BYB - we have his 5 generation pedigree but there's no information about his parents on k9data. He definitely seems to have the energy that people describe when talking about field dogs. Oliver has more of an on and off switch. 



> How motivated is he by food? Praise? Is he generally slow to respond or quick? Does he tolerate pressure or does he quickly fold and give in?


He's only motivated by food in an environment without distractions. Otherwise we're kind of at a loss. A soccer ball is the ONLY thing that he'll choose over any other distraction. We bring it to the dog park and his eyes are on us the whole time. But unfortunately carrying around and kicking around a soccer ball isn't the easiest thing to do while training. I've noticed that he responds quick to positive training and slowly to more pressure based techniques. For instance - if I have to push his butt down sometimes he'll really try and lock his legs so I can't push it down. Which is a recipe for disaster.



> To find out if he is an indepent boy - and you should call your breeder and talk to a professional field trainer. Get a couple of opinions about him.
> I have found that I need to up the ante with my independent dogs and it was not about giving better treats or repeating the command or retraining. It was enforcing the command that was given.


Unfortunately since he's from a BYB we don't have that option. I think our current field trainer will be able to help with him. Could you maybe give some examples of how you enforced the commands with your independent dogs?


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> If you physically place him in a sit, make sure you immediately praise him, then ask for the behavior again. If he does it on his own this time, reward.


I think this might be where we are messing up too. We always praise and give a nice chest rub when he goes into the sit, but we've never asked for it again right after to see if he'll do it on his own.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Repetition repetition repetition


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

By the time Murphy was about 16 weeks, he had sit,down and come command perfectly. At 10 1/2 months when off the leash the "come" command means nothing to him unless we're in the house. I'll only let him off leash in a fenced area. I don't trust him at all. I try and try,,,,,he's become impossible!! I'm hoping its him passing thru his obnoxious teenage years. In all the dogs I've owned they all obeyed "come". Not Murph!!!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think it is partly his age, that bratty teenage stage where they act like they've never had any training, and are pushing the limits to see if they get away with not obeying.

The trick is to find what motivates him. Try different treats, something you wouldn't normally think of, fruit, vegetables, cheese, popcorn, yogurt drops, find one that peaks his interest. You can work on things like sit with the soccer ball in the yard where you can have him off leash. If he wants you to play ball with him, he has to sit first.

Look for the training technique "Nothing in Life is Free" on the internet and see if you think those methods would help him. 

I would stop trying to force him into position. Are you clicker training? Even if you aren't you can still use the shaping methods. Hold the treat over his head moving it back so he lifts his head and naturally puts his butt down, do not use the command "sit". When he is in position click and trick, or say "yes" or "right" in place of the click, and then treat. Only add the sit command after he is consistantly putting his butt down without it.

I think he will come out of this stage and be more willing to cooperate, once he gets over the teenage brattiness.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

mylissyk said:


> Look for the training technique "Nothing in Life is Free" on the internet and see if you think those methods would help him.


I just read about that video last night! I'll definitely be searching it tonight. 



> I would stop trying to force him into position. Are you clicker training? Even if you aren't you can still use the shaping methods. Hold the treat over his head moving it back so he lifts his head and naturally puts his butt down, do not use the command "sit". When he is in position click and trick, or say "yes" or "right" in place of the click, and then treat. Only add the sit command after he is consistantly putting his butt down without it.


I was thinking of going back to the "click and treat/soccer ball" phase with him. We use "yes" instead of a clicker. I think, especially because we're in the teenage stage, going back to square one will help. That and finding places slightly more distracting like empty parking lots and training there. My 50 ft leads come in the mail today so hopefully we can get out to a quiet park/parking lot.

Thank you!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

coaraujo said:


> I just read about that video last night! I'll definitely be searching it tonight.
> 
> I was thinking of going back to the "click and treat/soccer ball" phase with him. We use "yes" instead of a clicker. I think, especially because we're in the teenage stage, going back to square one will help. That and finding places slightly more distracting like empty parking lots and training there. My 50 ft leads come in the mail today so hopefully we can get out to a quiet park/parking lot.
> 
> Thank you!


I would back up for a while and train at home, wait to put him in distracting situations. He is not ready for distractions yet, evidenced by his unwillingness to perform in class. Get the responses you want consistently in no distraction areas, then maybe move to the front yard and work it all again there. You want him to be consistently responding correctly before you add distractions.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I also think exercising him before class will help. We haven't moved into our house yet (only 2 more days - cannot wait for that fenced in backyard!) and we live in an apartment right now, so I've been doing a bit of running with him in the hallways, but there's a canine flu outbreak in my area so we haven't been to the park/dog park for a couple weeks. He's definitely got an abundance of energy so hopefully working him in the back yard before class will help. I try to incorporate training with his running because hes loves to run. I'll make him sit or do a command then "yes" and we'll take off running. If only I could do that in class and not look like a complete fool :


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I have another question. If Bernie doesn't listen when given a command would turning around and walking away - ignoring him be good to do? Or will this still teach him that he doesn't have to listen when I say a command. Since manually putting him in a sit doesn't seem to work I'm trying to figure out what to do in the instances where he doesn't listen. (besides taking all the great advice given thus far in the thread)


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

If he is not listening, I would go back to luring him to the command. You might have desensitized him to the command word if you repeat it over and over again. When Bear gets stubborn, either wait for him to comply or I start counting slowly outloud. I try my hardest to never repeat a command unless he is confused at which point I will show him what I want. 

If Bear knows the command, and is testing the boundaries, I do not give him leeway. 


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

coaraujo said:


> I have another question. If Bernie doesn't listen when given a command would turning around and walking away - ignoring him be good to do? Or will this still teach him that he doesn't have to listen when I say a command. Since manually putting him in a sit doesn't seem to work I'm trying to figure out what to do in the instances where he doesn't listen. (besides taking all the great advice given thus far in the thread)


For my dog, the only time I ignore a behavior in that way is if the behavior is specifically targeted (by the dog) at getting my attention in an inappropriate way. Example: barking and jumping at you. If the situation is he simply stays standing instead of sitting, ignoring probably won't help. I think the idea of enforcing the command as you have been is a good one. Louisiana gave you the best advise on this one. Also, I don't give much praise if I have to enforce/ a command. I say, "good dog, OK." Then we repeat, as Louisiana said. If he does it without needing help, THEN have a party, praise, release, belly rub, etc.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

From the additional description, and from his age, it sounds like more like Bernie is overwhelmed than he is an independant thinker. I think that he was giving you some cues in the obedience class when it took a lot to get him focused. Think of it as Bernie has learned some commands but he has not really "learned how to learn". There is a focus on the handler and an intensity in their attention that happens. Training becomes fun for the dog and that is motivation to ignore the distractions.

I have found myself in classes where we were in way over our heads and I asked the trainer if we could work on our own thing without interrupting the class. This depended on having the right facility where we had some room to do some work without distracting the class. If the trainer says no, ask if you could drop out and come to the next set of class and resume. Remember that Bernie can feel any frustration and it will not help his training. 

Megora has a great description of the bridgework that helps your dog to see training is not limited to a time or a place. Expand your training to different environments but you can also add distractions at home. Leave the tv on, have your boyfriend play with a toy, have Oliver present but not working, you get the idea. Start small and work your way up.

You might also try a prong collar to help keep him focused and to correct him if his attention wanders.

Another idea is to capitalize on Bernies focus on the ball. It is a good sign for his ability to become a good retriever. Get a couple of bumpers and a long rope 50 - 100 feet and tie a clip on. Premade leashes of this length cost a fortune so hit up the local hardware store. Go to a near by field do some retrieves - remember to keep it simple and stretch him out gradually. Always quit when he wants more. If your boyfriend will help, you can have him toss a bumper from 50 feet out and help Bernie if he loses focus (toss a second bumper). Get a duck call - all dogs love the duck call and they look automatically. Plus there is not a guy alive that will not love you for suggesting that you go to Gander Mountain and buy stuff!!.

If Bernie does not come back with the bumper, reel him in like a trout - don't worry if he drops the bumper. He will learn to keep it in his mouth in time. Don't worry if he resists - pull hard and fast - so wear gloves. Again, he will learn to hurry back after a few good pulls. Happy dance when he comes back!!!

Good Luck








At only 8 months old, it is something that he could outgrow to some degree.


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Sounds like Casper at that age. I had him neutered at 13 months and pulled him out of classes for a few months. At home, we worked on a lot of Sit Stays. Back to school at 16 months, he was a completely different dog. The out-of-his-mind excitement was gone. He's not sedate, but he's also not out of his mind.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My first reaction is that this is entirely normal. There is a classroom of new dogs, new people and a new instructor. I have had a few dogs who needed constant switching up of classes to learn how to focus.

As mentioned, a 'quiet good boy' with no reward if your boyfriend has to put him in a sit but then cue a sit again and a reward well for compliance. A few of my instructors have stories of their own dogs as well as student's dogs who attended several sessions of classes without actually being in the class; they paid for the class but worked on focus and attention on the sidelines. The classroom is hard for many dogs but a really important step to learning.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

You've already gotten great advice, but I picked up on something in particular that you said. You mentioned he was highly motivated by a soccer ball? Your boy may be more toy motivated than food motivated, at the heart of things. I have one of the most food motivated dogs in the world, and toys are still higher up on the chain than that... to the point where we have retrained major phobias with particular high value toys, not treats. However, you also mentioned that using the soccer ball as a training tool was a little impractical and I agree. But I think you may be able to instill the drive he has with the soccer ball onto another, more practical toy. I have chosen to use tug toys and the reward of a good tug game, or small plushy toys (which he ONLY gets when he has done something super awesome, like sitting through a whole nail clipping!) that he is allowed to frolic around with. Do some experimenting and see if you can find a toy he loves as much as that soccer ball and build his drive for it like crazy. Make it the coolest reward ever by getting crazy excited when you give it to him, only allowing him to have it when he has done something great, and interacting with him while he has it in a way you otherwise wouldn't (get on the ground and play with him, let him chase you while he has it, etc). 

I think building a drive for tug toys and the reward of a tug game can be such a great training tool with the right dog. I don't follow all of Natural Dog Training because they can practice some strangely out of place compulsion techniques, but I have had a lot of success using their predator/prey model when it comes to building my dog's desire to focus on me and what I would like him to do. How to play tug of war with your dog – and have the happiest dog on the block. - Natural Dog Blog – Training and More << This is a great article on building a tug drive. If you can instill the same drive for a tug rope as he already has with the soccer ball, you might have A.) a highest value reward and B.) A way for him to release some energy and stress while engaging in that reward, all in one shot. Dogs don't tend to blow things like that off


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

If you are going to do field work, I would advise you to avoid any tug of war games with your dog. It will teach you dog to have a hard mouth and you could find yourself playing tug of war with a bird. Not good in the field or at a hunt test.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have to disagree with this. I know it is controversial and kind of traditional to never play tug with dogs, especially field dogs.

But .. all my dogs are taught to tug whether they work field or not. Tug has rules and the first rule is 'Out' or 'Give'. Second rule is Tug is only initiated by you. And it is ended by you. 

If you have any plans of agility or obedience work. playing tug can be very important.

My dogs would have beautiful line and delivery manners and are also tuggers. 



Leslie B said:


> If you are going to do field work, I would advise you to avoid any tug of war games with your dog. It will teach you dog to have a hard mouth and you could find yourself playing tug of war with a bird. Not good in the field or at a hunt test.


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## Golden Trainer (Oct 6, 2012)

I think you should start over. For get about any forcing the dog to do what you want. If it is not working try something new...and I would suggest positive reinforcement. Lure your dog into the behavior with treats and reward then once they are always sitting when you lure pretend you have a treat in your hand then when they sit show them you don't have a treat but reward them with a treat from the other hand to phase it out. Also look into clicker training. Kikopup is a good resource on youtube. Dog Training - YouTube
I recently went to work with a golden retriever that was described as a stubborn, dominant male that was high energy and constantly jumping on people and pawing for a attention. When I went to meet this dog I was expecting the worst. I was shocked when I saw a very submissive, sweet golden retriever who would do anything for attention. 
Force training can increase anxiety and resistance. The trick is to make training fun for the dog and they can't wait to do anything you ask. Try to find ways to get the dog to choose to do what you want and that is more powerful then any force training. If you need help I would recommend finding a positive trainer in your area. Just make sure to phase out the lure so that you don't end up with a dog that will only work if you have food. Use petting and praise combined with treats to increase their value.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Rereading the original post has me thinking that the basic problem may just be a lack of understanding. Dogs do not generalize well and a SIT in your backyard is not the same as a SIT in a new environment. Dogs (this is old school or traditional speak) have long term and short term memory - short term memory is the portion that has most trainers believing their dog knows the command. But while transitioning from short term to long term memory, the dogs cannot recall (they honestly cannot) the command. This is/was known as the 5 week plateau (usually occurs around the 5 week mark from when the command or step was originally started, but may take longer like 7 weeks). You can work through it or set the command aside for a week or so and the dog will come back stronger in his understanding of that command. Forcing the dog to obey is not a good thing since he honestly does not recall it.

Please realize that I am a cross-over trainer. I know both sides of training (compulsive and positive). In positive training you build the 'want to' and understanding before the 'have to' is thought of - and in many cases you never have to build have to; why would the dog need' have to' if the want to is so strong of course he'll be focused? This is where building a strong base of teamwork and wanting to please come into play. Okay, some would say dogs do not want to please; okay - but dogs will do what works - and if pleasing you works - win win  So I think you are on the right track of considering private instruction while you build these pieces. It is also commonly thought that patterns of behavior that the dog offers will become their strongest learning path - which is why shaping can be so powerful  By forcing a dog into position you are taking responsibility away from him and putting it squarely on your shoulders.

I will further say that it is embarrassing or can be embarrassing to have the class clown on the other end of the leash. But these very same dogs are the ones who often end up the most driven and exciting dogs once you have worked through it. I do not know what you are using for treats, but I would suggest amping them up ; liverwurst, steak or chicken baked with garlic, smelly cheese, tortellini etc. And bring a variety of these. If you can, get to the class early (are there classes before you?) and work active attention games. For instance. attention, 1 step heel break out to play or reward. Attention, 2 steps heel break out backwards and have him chase you etc.

Petcos on clinic days can really be helpful for proofing - a way of determining what your dog truly understands. Pack a lot of treats, your dog and your patience and work o the outside fringes at first. Eventually (after many trips) you can work within a few feet of the madhouse but it needs to be worked up to slowly. Strange parking lots (especially near school yards or tennis courts) can be good - again starting a good distance away.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

> I have to disagree with this. I know it is controversial and kind of traditional to never play tug with dogs, especially field dogs.
> 
> But .. all my dogs are taught to tug whether they work field or not. Tug has rules and the first rule is 'Out' or 'Give'. Second rule is Tug is only initiated by you. And it is ended by you.


I am so happy to hear this because tug is one of Bernie's favorite things and I've started using it with his "retraining" and its been really helpful. We're still working on drop it, we're about 50/50 on him actually dropping it.

We do use primarily positive reinforcement training, but a treat lure doesn't cut it if we're anywhere outside the home (and sometimes not even inside the home). We've tried every treat imaginable (raw liver even!), but he just pushes it aside with his nose. At our training class he was much more interested in the other dogs (especially the more advanced ones practicing with bumpers). I think our biggest issue is finding that trigger that creates the desire and "want to" in him. I honestly think its going to be bumpers :crossfing. I've been experimenting at home with different "rewards". So far throwing myself on the floor and rolling around with him works best. Tug is up there too. I'm going to email my trainer and see if we can get to class early to do some attention work beforehand. Maybe we need a "pregame stretch" to get us ready for class. I'll roll around on the floor if I have to to get his attention - I have no shame :. 

Since the forcing into a sit doesn't seem like a good idea, what do I do when he blows me off? Usually we back up the verbal with the hand signal (lure) but he just ignores that as well - even with a treat most times. Here are some examples of when it happens:
1. I ask for the sit, he starts to sit, gets distracted, doesn't sit. 
2. I ask for a sit and he completely ignores me. (I work really hard on only saying the command if his attention is on me/he's already starting to offer the sit so this occasion doesn't happen, but it still happens - especially when my boyfriend's working with him because he's not as good at reading Bernie).
3. I'm trying to lure him into a sit (like you do with puppies) but he doesn't budge.

side note - half the time it takes a few decades for him to actually get in his sit. i swear its like slow motion. this is why we have the issue of him getting distracted because it'll take a good 5 - 10 seconds sometimes for his bottom to hit the floor. (he doesn't get rewarded until his bottom is on the floor)



> I recently went to work with a golden retriever that was described as a stubborn, dominant male that was high energy and constantly jumping on people and pawing for a attention. When I went to meet this dog I was expecting the worst. I was shocked when I saw a very submissive, sweet golden retriever who would do anything for attention.
> Force training can increase anxiety and resistance. The trick is to make training fun for the dog and they can't wait to do anything you ask. Try to find ways to get the dog to choose to do what you want and that is more powerful then any force training.


When I say "force" into a sit I just mean pushing on his bottom (sometimes just sliding my hand down his back towards his bottom is enough). Other than that we only use purely positive training. My issue here is finding the "positive" for Bernie because I don't think treats or a general toy is going to cut it. He's definitely not aggressive - just overly playful and lacks focus/attention. He definitely gets plenty of attention - and we're actually thinking this may be part of the issue. We're starting to use the "Nothing in life is free" training method and using our attention as a reward. This has been helping. I'm hoping a combination of all the advice I'm receiving will help. We're going to try class again on Tuesday and see how it goes. Even if my boyfriend just ends up outside in the parking lot working on attention and the basics it'll still be good training. 

If only I could somehow be another dog or a leaf or a stick - then I'd have his eyes glued to me :


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

What would happen if you and your boyfriend switch dogs from class to class? Oliver does very well and is very eager to please. That way you both get positive impulses as well! And Liza wasn't the greatest, too...she may be calmer than Bernie, but she was just as unfocused...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Please realize that even the most experienced of dogs can lose it when bumpers are being thrown  

If your dog does not sit within a reasonable time (you select but I generally like within a second),try breaking off the exercise and walking away with your dog - it might be only a foot but walk away - your dog loses the opportunity to earn a reward. If he is persistent, leave the club and go into the parking lot.

I think Inge probably saw how long it took me on a bad behavior night to get fully into the club and release Brady from his crate. He kept barking and pawing the crate while poor Faelan being a good dog got to watch me repeatedly leaving.... no reward for bad behavior.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> I think Inge probably saw how long it took me on a bad behavior night to get fully into the club and release Brady from his crate. He kept barking and pawing the crate while poor Faelan being a good dog got to watch me repeatedly leaving.... no reward for bad behavior.



Wasn't that the same night Liza had to practice recall while (not) passing an (empty!) food bowl....?:bowl: I have decided that if I can teach Liza in this class to focus on me and not function like a scatterbrain, I have done well. I am not going to hunt with her, but in hospitals a lot of things can be going on. It's good if she knows she has to focus on me even when people react to a code Blue...


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

You can practice this exercise indoors and outdoors...

If he doesn't listen, walk away into another room. You provide him with treats, toys, walks, etc, so when you leave he has nothing to do. Wait a min. or two, then go back, ask him again, and if he doesn't listen, repeat. Soon Diego learned that he'd better listen since I wasn't playing around, waiting for him to finally sit his butt down.

When outside, attach his leash to something, and if he doesn't obey walk down your driveway, or anywhere. He should pay attention once you have left him. Walk back after a few min. Ask again, repeat if he doesn't listen. Once he does listen, reward with a toy or treat. Then you could also go for a walk.

This worked for me, so I thought I'd share. Diego used to be EXACTLY like your dog. Anyways, I hope all goes well for you both!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

fluffygoldens said:


> You can practice this exercise indoors and outdoors...
> 
> If he doesn't listen, walk away into another room. You provide him with treats, toys, walks, etc, so when you leave he has nothing to do. Wait a min. or two, then go back, ask him again, and if he doesn't listen, repeat. Soon Diego learned that he'd better listen since I wasn't playing around, waiting for him to finally sit his butt down.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this, I think we'll be really successful using this strategy!



> What would happen if you and your boyfriend switch dogs from class to class? Oliver does very well and is very eager to please. That way you both get positive impulses as well! And Liza wasn't the greatest, too...she may be calmer than Bernie, but she was just as unfocused...


We're going to try this on Tuesday! I think it'll help Bernie to switch things up, that and Oliver's a complete Mama's boy so I need him to get used to being handled by someone else. I can't blame Liza for being unfocused when Bernies bouncing off the walls all around her :doh:. I suppose he's good for developing attention around crazy distractions . 



> I think Inge probably saw how long it took me on a bad behavior night to get fully into the club and release Brady from his crate. He kept barking and pawing the crate while poor Faelan being a good dog got to watch me repeatedly leaving.... no reward for bad behavior.


I think I'll be experiencing something pretty similar on Tuesday, :crossfing we can actually make it into the classroom at some point. Frank said we can come early so hopefully 1 1/2 hours is enough time for Bernie to get the message .


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks to everyone's wonderful advice and working hard with Bernie all week, we survived our second hunting class - Bernie was spectacular !!!

:banana::rockon::appl::artydude:artydude:artydude:arty::headbang2

It took me maybe 5-10 minutes to get him into the classroom, and then another few minutes to calm him down, but then something just clicked and he was focused and performing all the drills great. I think this might be the best feeling in the world?!


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

coaraujo said:


> T
> It took me maybe 5-10 minutes to get him into the classroom, and then another few minutes to calm him down, but then something just clicked and he was focused and performing all the drills great. I think this might be the best feeling in the world?!


YAY!! Congrats! I'm glad things were better this week. It is the best feeling in the world, for sure!! 

Not to rain on your parade, but remember that next week might be a disaster again. Dogs are funny like that, especially a young dog. It can be doubly frustrating to have a great session and then the next week have a hard session. I've been there, cried, a lot. Just keep those great feelings with you to get over the rough bumps.


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## Golden Trainer (Oct 6, 2012)

So you can't lure him into a sit anywhere, or just in a distracting environment? For now I might focus on doing the majority of his training at home. Particularly every meal time.


> *He's only motivated by food in an environment without distractions. Otherwise we're kind of at a loss. A soccer ball is the ONLY thing that he'll choose over any other distraction. We bring it to the dog park and his eyes are on us the whole time. But unfortunately carrying around and kicking around a soccer ball isn't the easiest thing to do while training. I've noticed that he responds quick to positive training and slowly to more pressure based techniques. For instance - if I have to push his butt down sometimes he'll really try and lock his legs so I can't push it down. Which is a recipe for disaster.*


If you can get him to lure into a sit at home, I would try pairing a lure with a gentle upward pressure on his collar. Make sure he is not fighting the pressure, but rather giving into it to get that treat. Over time this may be a good tool to help you in those situations you can't get him to sit. If he associates it with a good thing and sitting is fun it can give him the message that you have to do it, but it is a REALLY fun thing, so there is no reason to fight it. 

Is there any way you can make and post a video of your general obedience training at home? This may help to see what is going on and how it can be improved for your specific situation.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Golden Trainer said:


> So you can't lure him into a sit anywhere, or just in a distracting environment? For now I might focus on doing the majority of his training at home. Particularly every meal time.
> 
> 
> If you can get him to lure into a sit at home, I would try pairing a lure with a gentle upward pressure on his collar. Make sure he is not fighting the pressure, but rather giving into it to get that treat. Over time this may be a good tool to help you in those situations you can't get him to sit. If he associates it with a good thing and sitting is fun it can give him the message that you have to do it, but it is a REALLY fun thing, so there is no reason to fight it.
> ...


Unfortunately even at home when we ask for a sit sometimes he'll get distracted (this isn't on a leash though - in the home we usually don't use a leash for training, I'm thinking we should start though). I'll make a video tonight and post it. 

We kind of got set back this weekend though because we moved into our new house so my boyfriend's family was here for 4 days. They don't really understand how to train dogs, especially stubborn teenage pups like Bernie. So we had a good 4 days straight of being rewarded for bad behavior (like jumping and barking), getting told commands multiple times (like 20 times in a row :uhoh, and being allowed to pull on the leash :doh:, oh and being let out of time out when mommy wasn't looking *sigh*. Bernie's back to boot camp today though!


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## Golden Trainer (Oct 6, 2012)

coaraujo said:


> We kind of got set back this weekend though because we moved into our new house so my boyfriend's family was here for 4 days. They don't really understand how to train dogs, especially stubborn teenage pups like Bernie. So we had a good 4 days straight of being rewarded for bad behavior (like jumping and barking), getting told commands multiple times (like 20 times in a row :uhoh, and being allowed to pull on the leash :doh:, oh and being let out of time out when mommy wasn't looking *sigh*. Bernie's back to boot camp today though!


Oh no! 

Here is a good video I found from Kikopup, a clicker trainer. Maybe it will help.


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