# My walk, not his



## DevonTT (Aug 5, 2006)

My 2 1/2 year old neutered male, Chaz, is a great dog in so many ways. He's been fairly easy to train using motivational techniques. He obeys all my commands when we're in the kitchen...  In class, which takes place indoors in a large rink area, he's pretty good about heeling as long as I keep a treat in my hand over his head. 

He tends to be dominant around other dogs (especially younger ones), but not in an aggressive way--he just likes to play hard and rough with the males. No humping or fighting. He meets and greets other dogs on the leash without any issues.

When we're in a controlled, familiar situation, such as the house, yard or car, he's obedient and submissive to me as his pack leader. So far so good, right? 

The problem is when we're on a walk or in a new environment, such as a store or walking through a crowd of people and/or dogs. He strains at the leash, trying to get to whatever has caught his attention. He was a pain in the patootie on the Walk for Animals. On our normal walks--just him and me--he tries to veer off after a scent on the ground or when he sees a squirrel, rabbit or bird.

Basically, he pays little attention to me on our walks. It's all about the Great Outdoors and all the different sights and sounds and smells. Instead of walking by my side, he's out in front (a no-no, according to Cesar M.). It's not so much the pulling that's the problem--it's the lack of attention. If I had his attention, he wouldn't be veering off to explore, nor ignoring me when I stop to wait for a light to change. He's off in doggie la-la land and would blithely walk into a busy street if I didn't pull him back.

I've tried the treat-over-the-head thing on our walks to get him to heel, but he blows me off. He doesn't care about the treat when there are real critters to watch. Heeling becomes an exercise in shortening the leash and holding him back--and it's tiring.

I've tried a Gentle Leader, and though it helps a bit with the pulling, it doesn't change his desire to be dominant on the walk. 

How do I change this dynamic so that I become the pack leader and he's watching me for cues to what he's supposed to do?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

The "Pull no go" philosophy has been the better strategy for Lucky. Its tedious at first. Basically I stop cold the second he tugs on the leash. I pause a second to give him time to see the correlation. I pull him back into position. I command heel and when he's heeling I praise. 

He is SUPPOSED to realize that pulling on the leash will stop him rather then allow him on. Since we do the "pull, stop thing at the beginning of every walk, he obviously has a lack of memory. 

Using treats as a reinforcing reward for properly heeling was helpful too. He will respond so well to treats and trys harder to make me happy. 

After a little bit of energy is out of him, I can say "heel" and he will step back in position. He's 11 months and still seems like a big puppy so I wouldn't say Lucky is stable, especially when my kids are running ahead. And he stays on a short leash to give me control when the squirrels run across the road.

Another option that many say has worked is the prong collar.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

It sounds to me like you have a very normal healthy golden on your hands.. minding in the kitchen vs outside with lots of diversions is two different games. so train with diversions. the suggested prong collar works well or even an ecollar. or just plain brute strength... 
the problem with treats is that they work ok up to a point where the diversion is more attractive than the treat...


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## goldenstaples (Apr 3, 2006)

A prong collar will do the trick. It helps you get control and will get his attention. I had my 7 mth. old Golden where when we walk in the park she was trained to sit as people, dogs and bikes go by. She would do great. In fact I would watch the people go by with their dogs out of control doing what I call the V8 walk(which is very exhausting )and she sits there perfectly
but when I would take her to the Nursing home to visit it was totally different she was trying to get to all the staff as we walked down the halls, was very excited, then I got a prong collar oh my what a difference, in fact I had taken her on a Monday out of control then on Friday took her with the prong collar and staff were saying" wow she has really calmed down"
Also I had it on one day and my husband started walking her and was amazed at the difference.
She does not mind wearing it either in fact I hold it out and she sits in front of me and waits for me to put it on.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> The "Pull no go" philosophy has been the better strategy for Lucky. Its tedious at first. Basically I stop cold the second he tugs on the leash. I pause a second to give him time to see the correlation. I pull him back into position. I command heel and when he's heeling I praise.


Yep, this approach has been effective for Dottie and Barrington as well as our foster dogs. At first, it feels so stupid to just stand there every time the dog hits the end of the leash. You won't go very far on those first outings. You might go 10 feet! But distance isn't the point. When the dog is stopping and looking at you to check in, you know you are making progress. If you are consistent with the approach, the dog will stop and look at you whenever there is a slight tension on the leash. He'll be aware of his position in relation to you, and so he won't be forgetting that you are on the other end of the leash.

Our two most recent foster dogs pulled like sled dogs when they first came to live with us. Within two days, the dogs had stopped pulling, and after three or four weeks, they were outstanding on the leash. With our most recent foster, Wiley, we successfully combined the clicker with the "pull no go." He was not responding to treats, and generous praise freaked him out. So, we used the click to signal his success, and it worked extremely well.

Here is a link to a good description of the "pull no go" approach:

http://www.animalprotectionsociety.org/programs/education.shtml#Pulling

Good luck! Chaz is a great-looking Golden!


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## DevonTT (Aug 5, 2006)

That's a great article, Jeffrey. Thanks for pointing it out.

You all had excellent suggestions. On today's walk, I tried the pull-no go technique. You're right--it IS slow. I'll have to figure out how to get the exercise I need if our walks are going to be so short.  

I've tried a prong collar in the past and didn't love it. He kept stopping to scratch at his neck. And it's kind of a pain to open and close. I might give the Easy Walk harness a try.

I also did something different today on our walk to encourage Chaz to sit when I tell him to. I'd bring him to a stop, then give him the command to sit. He did his usual "I can't heeeeeeeear you" routine and remained standing. So I just stood there, for minutes on end, if necessary, until he looked at me. Then I told him again to sit. If he ignored me again, I just kept standing there. Eventually, he'd look at me and I'd tell him to sit and he'd obey. As soon as he did, I let him move ahead again on the walk.

This was working pretty well, so I experimented with some other commands. I put him in a down stay and had him remain in place while other people went around him on the walking path. It seemed to focus him and let him know that he IS expected to mind my commands, even though we're out for our walk.

This is work... I hope I can keep it up consistently to make a real difference in his behavior.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

That's great! You are so right about beng consistent. Your patience and consistency are the keys. It's a lot of work, but the rewards are definitely worth it. Your walks will become what you want. Chaz is still young, and as you continue to work with him the way you are doing, he will become the Golden that people make extra effort to compliment for his outstanding behavior. He will astound you.

You have some really nice photos. Karen and I laughed our heads off at your photo story. Dottie would have been right next to Chaz in that stinky mudpit!


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## jessme7 (May 29, 2006)

I have no problem walking one of my pups at a time because they are in obedience training. But when I walk both of them together it's a different story. So I decided to return my double dog leash and get this Z-Tandem leash by Larz. A co-worker of mine told me great things about the leash. Check out this leash. I am ordering a z-Tandem Leash to walk two but they have leashes for just one dog up to 5 dogs. http://www.larzequipment.com/


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

You don't need a prong collar!!!
You mentioned {Cesar M} his philosophy is all about _energy. positive, calm, assertive energy._
Keep the leash short, and always pull up. not sideways or back. NEVER let him in front of you. Keep the pace up, and just keep pulling him gently with you. He will come, and eventually, [a day or three] he will walk _with _you. I never realized how easy, or fun a walk with the dogs can be, until I learned the proper way. 
If you believe in the "power of the pack" this technique works!
Good luck


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## DevonTT (Aug 5, 2006)

Thanks, Ron. Do you use a flat collar with that technique? Cesar uses a choke chain, which makes me cringe... 

Our walk this morning was better, BTW. The pull-no go technique seems to be working. He still likes to lead, though.


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## ron (Sep 16, 2005)

It might be hard on your arms for the first day or two, but just hold the leash close to you [next to you], and DON'T let him in front of you.
I calmly talked to my guys for the first couple of days, saying "stay with me, it's just a walk" and it worked WONDERFULLY
Keep it going IT WORKS
Good luck, I hope it helps
YEs I use a flat collar, and it works


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

As long as the dog is walking _*with*_ me, I don't see any problem with her getting in front of me. For example, when we are walking single-track trails, we are going single-file, and as long as that leash is loose, I'm fine with it. When I ask the dog to slow down, she must slow down. Same with stopping, waiting, etc. No pulling, no yanking, none of that---from either side of the leash. When tension on the leash occurs, we stop, but she knows to take a step back when that happens. We are walking _together_.

She must also walk calmly behind me on those trails, and to either side of me based on the direction I give her. It's not that orchestrated, though, any more. We are just walking.

The pull-no-go approach is how I've arrived at this point with my dogs and several fosters. It's such a ridiculously simple approach that requires mostly time and patience. With every dog, we've made a point to vary the game, whcih means that sometimes a dog passes through a door ahead of us humans. It's no problem, because we are reinforcing the fact that the dog must look to us for direction. We haven't had a dog decide to try and take over the house because he walked though the door in front of a human after being given the OK to do so.

Before we tried this approach with Dottie, she was was a head-down, nose-to-the-ground, rude dog to walk. She was no fun at all on the leash.

It all depends on what you want your relationship to be. Cesar makes an impressive sight with all those dogs walking behind him, and he provides us with the tools to achieve the same sort of thing. His methods are without a doubt effective.

But Chaz is already showing good progress with his new training, and soon, those 10-foot walks will increase to walks around the block, and before long, he'll be paying good attention and cooperating and not pulling on that leash. Patience, patience, patience...


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## DevonTT (Aug 5, 2006)

jeffreyzone said:


> Patience, patience, patience...


Words of wisdom indeed. Thanks!


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I dont know that the method matters too much. For practiacally anything you want a dog to do there are multiple ways to achieve it. The thing is to pick a method and then stay with it. It is baby steps baby steps..


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## goldenstaples (Apr 3, 2006)

My dog has a stubborn streak waiting then walking did not work for her. Like Greg said everyone has to find what works for them and their dog. Phoebe sees me with the prong collar, she comes running and sits in front of me wanting it on, they are not mean and you have to know how to use them properly and make sure they are properly fitted.


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## DevonTT (Aug 5, 2006)

Well, after three days of pretty consistent work on the leash, Chaz is doing a little better. He still goes after squirrels and pigeons, nearly jerking my arm out of my socket, so we have more work to do there.

It's really a matter of his mental state, more than anything. He clearly knows what he's supposed to do, but he gives me the big brush-off still too much of the time. 

I've been reading Cesar Milan's book, _Cesar's Way_, which has been interesting. He says when a dog is confronted with a more dominant dog, there are four possible responses: fight, flight, ignore or submit. Chaz is choosing to ignore me an awful lot when we're out on our walks. I keep thinking one of these days it'll snap into place in that big blocky head of his that his life is so much easier when he lets me be the boss.

Hope springs eternal! Meanwhile, I still gotta git me one of those Easy Walk halters...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I believe each dog presents its own challenges to training... that's why one specific method that works for one person will probably not work for all dogs and all owners in all situations. It sounds as if Chaz's only problem heeling is during 'normal' walks where distractions are many. I might suggest exercising Chaz before you exercise him, ....huh???? What I mean is 'blow-out' all his pent-up energy first BEFORE attempting a proper heel on your regular walk... how to do this? Play fetch for a full half-hour to forty minutes first, then 'hitch' him up to the leash and go for your walk... or have him swim or hitch him to the bike (via the Springer or K-9 Cruiser) or some other super aerobic activity for at least a half hour just BEFORE your walk. This in turn will make whatever method you try more effective. And you shouldn't have to do this forever, just long enough so Chaz gets into a habit of accompanying you by-your-side without resistance... eventually you will no longer HAVE to exercise him right before your walks... but you will still have to aerobically exercise him enough over-all during the week so he doesn't revert.

I've really become a strong believer in Cesar's philosophy on so many aspects of living together with a dog... and one of these is the need to PowerWalk with your dog (an hour, once a day would be the ideal but even I have a hard time sticking to this schedule... though Sidney rarely ever goes a single day without at least an hour of some form of aerobic exercise). I think Ron has the description and essence of the PowerWalk outlined pretty well... but one of the real keys, I believe, is in the attitude you project. If you're acting like or saying one thing but in your heart you don't really mean it and won't back it up... guess what? your dog WILL figure it out! and most dogs (children too) WILL 'push the envelope' to find out where it is you actually DO 'draw the line' and that will be the extent of obedience they will offer you. You've got to be firm on some things, even if you don't feel that's really part of your personality profile... its what your dog expects from a strong leader.

BTW, never allow any steady pulling (from either you or your dog) always 'pop' the leash... yes, jerk on it... it would probably be more effective to use a choke chain but even a flat collar will work, just make sure its the widest collar you can get (for a Golden it should be at least 1" wide... the wider the collar, the greater the support the neck has and the less chance of damage to the neck). We've use a limited-slip collar (similar in functionality to a Martingale) for many years now, it tightens like a choke chain except that its 'tightening capacity' is limited to about a 2" movement (and its NOT a chain but a wide nylon collar)... and we keep the collar adjusted to make it an impossibility to actually 'choke' the dog. I feel it would be somewhat similar to a big guy putting his hand on your shoulder and giving you a quick, firm squeeze every time you get out of line... doesn't really hurt, but it sure gets the message across.

So my recommendation is to aerobically exercise Chaz for at least a full half-hour before your walks... employ a PowerWalk routine and only ever 'pop' the leash. And after Chaz has been heeling properly on your regular walks for at least a week, you can probably start to expect a proper heel without having to exercise him first.

And as far as the "sit"... I would suggest, you say 'sit' only once, wait two seconds and if there is NO start of movement on his part, make him sit... pull up and back on the leash while simultaneously pushing his butt down with your free hand... (I'm assuming here he does understand the sit command, so he should offer little resistance to your positioning him). Good Luck!


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## DevonTT (Aug 5, 2006)

Just came back to report some progress... Chaz now knows what "don't pull" means. I've seen him actually respond to the verbal command without needing a leash pop. That's huge to me.

Also, we were able to shop at a PetCo this morning with Chaz obediently walking by my side much of the time. We're not all the way there yet in that environment, but he is much improved. He heeled very nicely for me when we walked the aisles but reverted to pulling away when we stopped if there was food or another dog nearby. And he's still a wild man by the register, as he knows there's a treat coming from the cashier.

More to work on, but we're getting there!


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I like what Cesar has to say--watch the show for a good overview of animal psychology! Most of dogs problems are because we don't know what we are doing--they know how to be dogs--but we want the to act like people! 

The most difficult thing about training is doing it often--it is hard work! 

I like the Gentle Leader, it really has helped me. Also one of those leashes that just goes around the high part of the neck--not attached to the collar works-depending on the dog. It is easier to get them into a sit with the Gentle leader. 

I posted on another tread, but will say again here--I got so used to her pulling me that I was keeping way too much tension on the leash. No reason for them to pay attention to you if have tension all the time--they know where you are. Cesar is correct about another thing-- quick upward corrections when they start to pull. I also change my pace often so they have to pay attention to me. 

You might want to practice 'come' often while at home or in the yard to help them learn to pay attention to you. Wait is helpful also--

It all works together to teach them to pay attention to what you want them to do--it is not just ONE thing--


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## z&mom (Oct 7, 2006)

Sighs! I have been very discouraged lately by the comment of our trainer. Two weeks in a row he singled us out (Z and I) that we will not pass the basic obedience test because of our heeling exercise -- he added that it is horrible and gave us a "zero" for our heeling. 

We go for walks at least two times a day and each lasting at least 45 mins. The walk starts with heeling at the carpark (least distractions) and after about 5-7 mins, i will allow her to go potty (she is allowed to sniff around and find her spot). Then we will proceed to her favorite pasture for a free romp (I use the extendable leash) for at least 15-20 mins. She has even learned to sit and stay when we spot any approaching animals or curious people. However, the moment the other dog gets too near, she gets really excited and she lunges forward to play. She has also learned to sit nicely to be pet by strangers. Basically she heels rather well (she walks a little faster most of the time, but she will slow down when I command "slow"). Pulling of leash is minimal, though she has the tendency to wander off from my side from time to time. She is out of control when she sees little kids and other dogs. But still, it has been a great improvement on her part to finally learn to sit nicely and wait for a split second before lunging at the other dog. 

The heeling exercise in class goes like this, each dog will take its turn to heel with the handler by circling the other dogs (on a sit stay position) one at a time. We did terribly because Z will not follow my lead, she will sniff all the dogs, and pull the leash to get near to the dogs. It is like she can't hear me, and she has absolutely no eye contact with me at all even when I call her name and tell her to heel. I have to tug her leash (we use the choke/chain collar for class) so many times, and it seems like it is not getting to her at all. MY QUESTIONS: is it so important for our dog to learn to ignore and not sniff other dogs within close proximity (we heel around 1 foot away from each dog during the training)? Isn't it normal for dogs to sniff around and check out other animals especially when they are so near to each other? That said, I must admit a few of dogs (3 out of 8 of the dogs in our class) are capable to doing this routine very well - maintained very good eye contact with handler and not sniffing other dogs at all.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I took my second ever dump on the gravel today when Lucky once again fired for a cat. Now I have a twisted and swollen knee and bruised hand. 

Heeling is much more important then I had figured, not for "heeling" but for the self-control that comes with it. I'm finding out that self-control needs to be worked on BEFORE a dog approaches the weight of the handler.

Lucky is good with kids and dogs. Somewhat restrained with squirrels. But cats.....

I know its frustrating, but it you can improve please do. Lucky does better with treats in these types of situations and that is how I reinforced his sitting when neighbor kids approached.

I think if I had used treats more through out the heeling process and throughout our walks he would be less inclined to do his out of control thing now. Using treats worked well, but I fell back on physically controlling him before things were reinforced. His walking behavior sounds very similar to Z's...meaning he walks decent but their is a tad bit of a powerplay.

Good luck to you. I know it has to be frustrating.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Lucky's mom said:


> I took my second ever dump on the gravel today...


:lol: I had to read that twice before I realized you weren't saying you were out going to the bathroom in the gravel..... :uhoh: 

So are you okay?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

RickGibbs said:


> :lol: I had to read that twice before I realized you weren't saying you were out going to the bathroom in the gravel..... :uhoh:
> So are you okay?


Ha ha, that didn't sound good did it. 

Well, after I went down...and I went down hard....I lost my temper in front of the neighbor kids and told them that if they had a cat they better keep it out of my yard cause we were going to set the trap. I was so upset. 

And then I went to them and apologized saying that I was just mad at the cat and Lucky and didn't meant to make them feel bad. 

I'm always chasing cats out of my yard. They scratch our vehicles, puncture holes in our pool, get trapped in our garage. YOu open the garage door and its like they sprint for it. And of course, they are a " Lucky lure." I was mad at my husband for getting a cat trap and I let the last one go, as I felt bad...knowing it was probably some neighbor's cat, but I've just about had it myself.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Well, I sure know how that goes. I blurt stuff out at the kids in anger like that too.

But I am happy to hear that you aren't actually out pooping in the yard.......


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## z&mom (Oct 7, 2006)

Z is only 35 lbs now (6 months old), but when she lunges forward she is capable of pulling my husband off balance (he is 175lbs). It is a good point that you brought up " not for "heeling" but for the self-control that comes with it". I often wonder is it because Z and I have not bonded (she has been with us for 8 weeks now) thus she is not keen to listen to me or to follow my lead.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

z&mom said:


> Z is only 35 lbs now (6 months old), but when she lunges forward she is capable of pulling my husband off balance (he is 175lbs). It is a good point that you brought up " not for "heeling" but for the self-control that comes with it". I often wonder is it because Z and I have not bonded (she has been with us for 8 weeks now) thus she is not keen to listen to me or to follow my lead.


I am very small. I don't hit 90lb. And I am very short. I'm thinking Lucky is 70 or over now at 13 months.

So when the kids get back in school me and Lucky are going to do some walking. We've not been walking lately since I've been hitting so many stray dogs. I'm going to use treats as a reward for good walking behavior. He really focuses on food, and I've found that treats aren't needed down the road when he's made a habit of good behavior.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Lucky's mom said:


> I am very small. I don't hit 90lb. And I am very short. I'm thinking Lucky is 70 or over now at 13 months.


Yeah......I imagine Samson could drag you wherever he wanted to go.... Samson can jerk me around when he wants, and I'm 6'3" and close to 200 lbs.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

The whole loss-of-self-control issue is a tough one to address, and as we've seen, a Golden has enormous pulling power. 

There's a good article about teaching self-control at this site:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/artlibreg.htm

The article is called "Guidelines for Teaching Self Control."

It's a short read, but it offers some high-level tips about this issue. 

It sounds to me like *Z* is doing rather well in obedience class; she's learned many of the basics. I think that with time and a proper approach, you can achieve the kind of heeling that you want. 

Now for a bit of sarcasm: I'd like to extend a big *"way to go"* to that trainer who gave you both a zero and told you that you'd never succeed. Wow, how inspiring. Instead of berating you, the trainer should take a step back and help you address this self-control issue. Each dog is different, and the approach that is working for those three dogs in your class is not quite right for *Z*.

To Lucky's Mom: I hope you are feeling better today. It must be tough to deal with all those cats.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!


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## z&mom (Oct 7, 2006)

jeffreyzone said:


> The whole loss-of-self-control issue is a tough one to address, and as we've seen, a Golden has enormous pulling power.
> There's a good article about teaching self-control at this site:
> Articles Menu
> The article is called "Guidelines for Teaching Self Control."
> It's a short read, but it offers some high-level tips about this issue.





Lucky's mom said:


> Heeling is much more important then I had figured, not for "heeling" but for the self-control that comes with it. I'm finding out that self-control needs to be worked on BEFORE a dog approaches the weight of the handler.


I am so thrilled that Z passed her basic obedience exam last Thursday! Thanks for your advice, especially from Lucky's mom and Jeffreyzone. It was a lightbulb moment when you mentioned that heeling is about self-control and the article is great. I read it and we have been focusing our training on teaching her self-control and patience (we use "wait" and "leave it"), and as she learns to manage her urges to lunge at other dogs/people or interesting finds along the way, her heeling improved tremendously. I can now walk her around the other dogs in class without her pulling on the leash.:banana:


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I know this might be after the fact--but what I have found to work best when trying to walk 2 dogs at once...grrr--is to issue a mild correction when they first turn their attention toward something I don't want them too--like a person, kid, dog, cat etc. 

I know--it is hard to do. You have to pay close attention to what they are looking at. Julie is pretty easy to manage--depending. She is for me--she pulls my son all the way to Galveston Bay and jumps in. She knows she can with him. 

Woody is another matter--being so large--I just can't let him get out of hand. 
The second I see his head turn towards something like a barking dog etc--I correct him. I also change paces often. 

The biggest problem I have is not getting pulled down the stairs on the way out for the walk! They are just SOOO excited! They do "wait' but when I tell them its okay to go---man do they go! They should be sled dogs!


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

z&mom said:


> I can now walk her around the other dogs in class without her pulling on the leash.


Way to go, and congratulations! It's great to hear the good news about *Z *and the way she passed her obedience exam! That's great!!! I'm sure you will continue to see excellent progress with her.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Your speaking of timing NJB, that is so very important in giving a correction, actually timing is the most important part of any correction.!!!!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

njb said:


> I know this might be after the fact--but what I have found to work best when trying to walk 2 dogs at once...grrr--is to issue a mild correction when they first turn their attention toward something I don't want them too--like a person, kid, dog, cat etc.
> 
> I know--it is hard to do. You have to pay close attention to what they are looking at. Julie is pretty easy to manage--depending. She is for me--she pulls my son all the way to Galveston Bay and jumps in. She knows she can with him.
> 
> ...



I have stairs as well for them to go done to get out the front door.....i make them sit and put there collars on them , then i open the gate and let them go down and wait at the door... they know once they hit that bottom step they have to sit and wait for me..or they go nowhere.....


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

njb said:


> Julie is pretty easy to manage--depending. She is for me--she pulls my son all the way to Galveston Bay and jumps in. She knows she can with him.
> 
> !


Have you ever tried the Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness (not the one that loops around the snout)? I swear it's nothing short of miraculous. Augie was pulling my arm out of the socket whenever someone was with us on walks... from the moment I put the harness on, he walked next to me like a highly trained pooch  I've had other people point to Augie while out walking and say to their dogs, "See that dog? Why can't you walk nicely like he does?!?" LOL Little do they know  

Amazon.com: Easy Walk Harness - Medium - Blue: Home & Garden


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I have a GL for Julie--your right it is nothing short of a miracle. The problem is that dogs get 'collar' smart--and she walks like a show dog with it on and runs like a maniac without it. 

I was making the mistake of taking it off her--I thought I was doing good--not. 

There is a term in psych called "habituation" it means pretty much after you live near the airport for awhile you tune out the noise. What I should have done was leave it on her---then been sneaky and used just a regular lead, let her get used to that--then gradually loosen up the GL. 

Live and learn eh?


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

I just put the harness on Augie every time, since it is so easy to get on and off--our walks are so pleasant now. If I have to use it for the rest of his life, so be it!


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## kjp502 (Oct 27, 2006)

I was told by a vet that choke collars more likely to collapse the trachea because of the tugging. Does anyone have any experience with this?


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## mainegirl (May 2, 2005)

With moose our 2 y.o. we trained him with a prong collar. it worked dreal well (esp. when we used liverwurst for training) then i started puttin the prong collar on and just hooking the leash to the regular collar (rancomly) now he is good with the regular collar and/or the prong collar. I think the prong would stop the lunges. it doesn't hurt them ( i have a friend who tried it on themself before they put it on their gr... such dedication... i wnder if they tried other things first?) and they are so smart that they learn after the first time they pull on the prong collar.

we start in december with angel (our 5 m.o.) in obedience training. girls are so different from boys, shes so independent, kind of an attitude of... if i want to i willdo it. we'll see who can b e more stubborn

beth, moose, angel and
sandy at the bidge


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## Gldiebr (Oct 10, 2006)

I've been using the Gentle Leader Harness (not the head halter) on Bailey, and she's been walking well with it. I took both dogs out walking with Jim this afternoon, and he noticed that the harness pulls across Bailey's shoulder, not allowing her freedom of movement. Because she's walking nicely right next to me, I hadn't noticed.

Has anyone else had this problem? I don't want to cause any shoulder, back or hip injuries, because she's walking off-kilter. Today, I immediately switched to her regular collar, and she immediately resumed her lunging/tugging routine. We used the halter back to the car, so she didn't trip up any bicyclists on the path, but now I'm not sure what to use. 

She has a choke chain, which she just chokes herself with. I had originally used the stopping when tugging training technique, but it just never worked for her. Any ideas?


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Gldiebr said:


> I've been using the Gentle Leader Harness (not the head halter) on Bailey, and she's been walking well with it. I took both dogs out walking with Jim this afternoon, and he noticed that the harness pulls across Bailey's shoulder, not allowing her freedom of movement. Because she's walking nicely right next to me, I hadn't noticed.
> 
> Has anyone else had this problem? I don't want to cause any shoulder, back or hip injuries, because she's walking off-kilter. Today, I immediately switched to her regular collar, and she immediately resumed her lunging/tugging routine. We used the halter back to the car, so she didn't trip up any bicyclists on the path, but now I'm not sure what to use.
> 
> She has a choke chain, which she just chokes herself with. I had originally used the stopping when tugging training technique, but it just never worked for her. Any ideas?


Augie doesn't walk off-kilter with his--have you double-checked that it's fitted correctly? I know when I was using a regular collar and leash he'd choke himself too and didn't care. Sometimes he'd be leaping in the air so hard that he'd literally be hanging by his neck and walking on his back paws.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Correct fitting with the GL is critical. I think it was this thread I posted on earlier that my trainer told me dogs get 'leash/collar smart' 

I love the way the GL works so fast--can you believe some folks call it cruel? They say prong collars are more humane....I have a hard time with that concept. 

Anyway-from my own experience--leave the GL on the doggie--and train them to walk nice with the leash attached to just a regular collar--bit by bit

If it is any comfort--I have the exact same problem. 

Really the whole idea it to teach them to pay attention to where you are--and stay with you. 

ps. liverwurst rocks for training....

My trainer even was trying to teach us a 'watch me' command--hard for puppies. We are making progress though because when I let my grandsons walk Julie she is always turning around to see where I am. 

All that being said I am still jealous of folks who dogs walk nicely on a regular lead.


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## Gldiebr (Oct 10, 2006)

Her harness fits her perfectly, according to the pictures on their website and the instructions that came with it. Unless she walks behind me, it pulls up over her shoulder. If she lets it go slack, it hangs low, and interferes w/her stride. 

My previous golden, Sandy, outgrew the tugging, but Bailey is already Sandy's full-grown size at 8 months... and much stronger. Complicating things is the fact that I have a bone spur in my left shoulder, so it's easy for her to take control. :doh: 

I'll just have to go back to the regular collar - got her a strong, wide leather one. I'll go back to square one, and work with her alone, (after Moose's run), when Bailey is already tired from playing hard. Maybe this time, she'll be old enough for it to sink in. Thanks for your help!


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## ID_Hannah (Jun 8, 2006)

*GL Harness*

I have been *knock on wood* very lucky with Boone and his leash walking. He'll walk on his flat collar at a heel... well, until a baby-talking person approaches. lol. It was a lot of work and a lot of walks that got us no where, but it's well worth it now. 

I like the GL harness. I use it with my terrier and I used it some with Zulu as a puppy until he learned to heel. I do think it fits differently of different dogs, which makes sense considering the varying body types you see in Goldens. I have had the same problem with it fitting funny on the front. Sometimes it can be helped if you tighten the top strap all the way and let the slack be in the bottom strap. That way the chest strap fits a bit higher up on the dog's chest. 

I'm curious... Has anyone ever used the "Snoot Loop"? It's like a GL head harness, but slightly different. I'd love to hear experiences with it. I have Halti's and GLs, but I was told Zulu prefers to work in the Snoot Loop at advanced training over the other two.. go figure!


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## AtticusJordie (Aug 15, 2006)

All of the responses to this thread have been very helpful. Our two dogs tug a lot when we're walking them. You've all given us some really useful ideas to correct what we've (and evidently to a lesser extent... the dogs) been doing wrong...

By the way--just what is a "prong collar"? I have an idea what it means--but can anyone explain it in more detail?

And, I don't expect that I'll ever be pooping in gravel while walking either of our two Goldens....I use extra small Depends--they fit really tightly 

SJ


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## Baileysmom (Aug 5, 2006)

Here is an article about a "prong collar"

R News: As It Happens, Where It Happens

We used a prong collar with my other golden because he would not stop pulling when he saw another animal or a child and at 80 lbs I was having trouble with my back. With the prong collar, he could be walked by my neighbor's child who was only 35 lbs. I am trying hard to teach Bailey not to pull, but am having the same problems with animals and children. A recent episode of "The Dog Whisperer" showed Ceasar taking the extra part of a 6 foot leash and looping it around in front of the dog's shoulders and using it like a harness that assistance dogs use. I tried it at the park yesterday and it was a miracle. I wouldn't want to walk like that all the time, but I think that is how the gentle leader harness works -- different pressure points on the dog.


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## Gldiebr (Oct 10, 2006)

Well, I re-adjusted her harness as you suggested, but it didn't seem to help - it still cuts across the lower portion of her shoulder, inhibiting her stride. So I switched to the choke chain, and "made like a tree" around the block, stopping everytime she pulled. I varied my stride, and she seemed to catch on. Knowing Bailey, she thought it was a game! Whatever works! :crossfing I'll just keep practicing w/her on a few mini-walks each day, see if I can get past her bull-headedness! 

Thanks for all of the tips everyone!


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