# How long do you practice?



## Megora

10 to 15 minute sessions generally. Try to spend just a couple minutes on each thing and quit while you are ahead. 

I generally train first thing in the morning and then again in the evening. Unless it is a class day and then we just train at class that day.


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## gldnboys

I tend to mix it up, as I like to train in different places, and especially outdoors in different locations when the weather is nice. So we don't always follow a set schedule, time-wise. Like Kate, we do short sessions, and I also mix up the exercises so we're not drilling repetitions. 

I think the most important thing is to train when you yourself are feeling energetic and are in the mood for it, since if you're having fun, Josie will be sure to as well.


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## gldnboys

I just wanted to add that on class days, we do the same thing that Kate does: the class(es) are our training time.


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## abradshaw71

Thanks for the feedback. I had been mixing up the training, but not the location. That's a great idea. Josie has been doing great with half hour times, but I may think about cutting those in half and doing them twice a day instead. That's easier to do on the weekends then on the week days, however. 

And like both of you, I wasn't planning on doing training at home on the day we have class.


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## gldnboys

If you're new to training in different locations, I'd suggest you start slow.... Go with as few distractions as possible at first, since the new location itself will be a distraction! When you're able to keep her focus and she's still working nicely, you can start to very gradually add distractions, keeping in mind that distance is a huge factor as well (i.e. how far away you are from the distraction). When in doubt, go with the easier exercises and train for success, rather than building difficulty too soon. You can still work on the more difficult exercises and variations at home - just try to build up accuracy and confidence before taking them on the road. Have fun!


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## tippykayak

I look at the whole world as an opportunity to train a connection and the important skills. We do sit stays and down stays on the coffeeshop patio, heels over rocks in the woods, ups and overs on park benches at the town green. Recalls we do in the house, in the woods, in the backyard, at the park, basically anywhere it's safe to have a dog off leash. 

We are training all day, all over, for several reasons. First, it's really fun when the whole world is your training area. Second, dogs struggle so much with context that the more places you do something and the more differences you make in your own positioning (standing, sitting, kneeling, lying on the ground, next to the dog, behind him, in front, moving away, moving toward, etc.), the more reliable the behavior becomes. Test your dog's sit sometime by putting him in a down, lying on the ground in front of him, and saying "sit" with no motion. Chances are he won't understand what you're asking for at first. 

When it comes to competition-specific skills, it certainly helps to mimic test conditions as part of proofing your dog, including running through a test routine. That said, I think it's even more helpful to teach your dog each skill with lots of changes in surroundings and requirements so you can help the dog isolate what's important about the cue. I think a lot of failed skills happen because the dog is unclear on the criteria and/or something in the context changes. Plus, playing around like that is super fun for both the handler and the dog, which increases the dog's motivation to work with you and stay connected when it matters.


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## Megora

Truthfully speaking - pet training is separate from competition training. I have set sessions for the actual competition stuff (where I'm asking for specific behaviors and want to train for finesse and precision, not just in my dog but also my own handling). I would never ask my dogs to heel unless I'm going to follow through and demand exact position at my left side. When I ask my dogs to heel, their heads have to be up. I want their shoulders to be right in line with my leg and not ahead or behind. I want them trotting (not pacing). If I turn right, I want them wrapping around and turning with me. If I turn left, I want them tucking their butts in and turning with me. You can train for competition anywhere - I use the front sidewalk in front of my favorite petstore in town. I use the pavilion down town. I also use the local high school on weekends when I have their parking lot and some lawn space to use to set up a ring. People absolutely have to train away from home and teach their dogs to work just the same regardless of what is going on around them. The difference is your own handling and set up will always be the same. You don't want to loosen up your handling and requirements, because it can and will get sloppy. 

Pet training is nonstop (at least when I'm home from work and have the dogs with me)... and a majority of it is praising and marking the behaviors the dogs offer themselves. For a good example, when I'm outside with the dogs, I may sit down on the ground and just watch them. They frequently check in on me or bring me stuff - and they always get praised and fussed over in my space. This trains them to stay close by me as opposed to going off on their own without me. Another example is I walked both guys early this evening. Every time the dogs settled back and maintained a steady good pace on a loose leash, they were praised and fussed over. I think if you correct your dogs for pulling, you have to follow through and mark when they are right. Just common sense stuff.


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## K9-Design

I would say 5 minutes to half an hour just depending if I got what I needed out of the training session. Typically I only train 1-3 skills per session.
I made a checklist of everything I'm working on for each dog. My obedience guru says it takes 14 training sessions with 10-20 repetitions per session to seal a behavior. So each behavior has 14 boxes and I check them off each time I work on it. 
I read an article not to long ago that showed dogs learn most efficiently if they practice a skill 3-4 times a week, versus every day.


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## abradshaw71

Josie and I will be trying a new location on Sunday. This will be a big test for her. She does just fine in my fenced in backyard with no distractions. Sunday, we'll be at my parent's house on the lake. She hasn't seen open water since last November so that will be a huge distraction for her. No water is too cold for her.  

Is it acceptable to let her play in the water, do a few retrieves first, before I ask her to work on her obedience skills? Do I work on her obedience while she's retrieving or keep them separate? I've seen different opinions on whether you're supposed to let the dog play first and then work, or do you expect them to work first then play. Not sure there is a right answer here, but just wondering what people do. At home, we do obedience first and then play, but like I mentioned, the lake is going to be calling her name. 

Around the house, I've been incorporating her obedience skills into our daily routine, too. She is very good at sit, wait, and leave it. So proud!  I still see heeling as being our biggest struggle.  

Thank you for all of the suggestions. This has been very helpful.


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## AmberSunrise

Short but planned sessions 

I generally will train twice a day - morning & evening. With a few rest days during the week. For high engagement and energy, I find short timed sessions work best and I might work a 3 minute session of 1 skill followed by a 2nd 2 minute session of another skill.

For example: 3 minutes heeling & related behaviors (left turns, halts, head up starts etc) - I will rarely combine many elements and if I work precision the second 2 minute session might be game filled food toss front games. I train each dog a maximum of 5 minutes at a time regardless of where I am. The evening session might be agility skills - which can often take the full 5 minutes for 1 skill (example; working weave entries at speed, or lead outs around the clock). 

If I plan on more than fits in the 5 minute frame they will get a break while I work another dog OR I just push the skills to the next session - for instance; yesterday Brady was having difficulty with the leather articles so that took the entire 3 minutes - it happens.

When I have a rental, I still try to stick to the 3-5 minute time for a dog, and alternate dogs for multiple sessions - when I have friends join me, or I join friends, we rotate through all of the dogs in short sessions.

I rarely do classes since that is a whole lot of time to expect a dog to be 'on' . I used to train in long sessions but I have multiple dogs at differing levels so it would take 4 hours a day LOL and I have found the short sessions really work well as long as they are planned and you do not get to the end of the week and find you have not done 1 left turn, or no figures 8's etc - I make out planning sheets and review regularly.


I would also agree that once a pup has his house manners, basic pet training is an always on training opportunity - separate from the precise and enthusiastic training for competition. It can and often does


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## kellyguy

Do you have any books, videos or other training guides you recommend?
I'm in the puppy search process and want to try some agility and obedience.
Thanks


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## AmberSunrise

Do you have a preferred style of training?

With agility, most training is reward based and many obedience trainers also use reward based.

With obedience, training can be reward based(positive), compulsion based (traditional) or a combination of the two (balanced).

Your preferred style would help determine books, videos and instructors you might prefer.


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## kellyguy

I'd have to say I'm mostly in the rewards based frame of mind. I'm not exactly sure what "school" I believe in 100% except I've never used shock collars, special collars or harsh corrections. I do kind of use some correction in that I use subtle leash "tugs" and verbal commands together when I'm training to walk on leash. I am referring to techniques in Wolters "gun dog" book.


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## goldlover68

Twice a day and no longer than 30 minutes. Key here is if the dog seems tired, distracted, stop. Also, always stop on a perfect performance of some command. Of course this is followed by lots of love and fun....playing with a toy or fetching....happy happy at all times....then they will learn that training is a fun time....not work!


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## abradshaw71

goldlover68 said:


> Twice a day and no longer than 30 minutes. Key here is if the dog seems tired, distracted, stop. Also, always stop on a perfect performance of some command. Of course this is followed by lots of love and fun....playing with a toy or fetching....happy happy at all times....then they will learn that training is a fun time....not work!


I have learned that Josie's threshold is 30 minutes. After that, it's work for her and she has lost interest. I've been backing off to 20 - 25 minutes because I don't want her to get bored. I do lots of love, hugs, and play time as soon as we are finished. Last night ended with both of us laying in the grass next to one another and belly rubs for her. It's so good to be able to enjoy the weather once again.


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## gldnboys

abradshaw71 said:


> Is it acceptable to let her play in the water, do a few retrieves first, before I ask her to work on her obedience skills? Do I work on her obedience while she's retrieving or keep them separate? I've seen different opinions on whether you're supposed to let the dog play first and then work, or do you expect them to work first then play. Not sure there is a right answer here, but just wondering what people do. At home, we do obedience first and then play, but like I mentioned, the lake is going to be calling her name.
> 
> Around the house, I've been incorporating her obedience skills into our daily routine, too. She is very good at sit, wait, and leave it. So proud!  I still see heeling as being our biggest struggle.
> 
> Thank you for all of the suggestions. This has been very helpful.


I like to make training very motivational and fun, so really, it's a lot like playing anyway.  I incorporate a lot of rewards (enthusiastic praise, food, toys...) throughout, with the occasional jackpot, so it's not a case of working being something to be gotten over with before the fun begins. 

With regard to your question about the lake, I don't think it would hurt to let her have a bit of time in the water first, then do some training, then let her back in the water, etc. Especially if as you suggested, she's going to be thinking of nothing else but the lake anyway, until she has a chance to get in there.


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## Megora

abradshaw71 said:


> Is it acceptable to let her play in the water, do a few retrieves first, before I ask her to work on her obedience skills? Do I work on her obedience while she's retrieving or keep them separate? I've seen different opinions on whether you're supposed to let the dog play first and then work, or do you expect them to work first then play. Not sure there is a right answer here, but just wondering what people do. At home, we do obedience first and then play, but like I mentioned, the lake is going to be calling her name.


It might be a little different for you since you will be getting into field training and your dog will need to learn to work around open water..... 

With my guys, I don't bother. It's just too much excitement for them.... and generally if they can "smell" the water in the air, their brains are already tuning EVERYTHING out aside from getting into the water. <- So no... I don't do any training around lakes.


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## Megora

kellyguy said:


> I'd have to say I'm mostly in the rewards based frame of mind.


 Most people in competition obedience are mostly rewards based while training. 

Janice Gunn, Betsy Scapicchio, Adele Yunck... <- These are people to look up.


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## abradshaw71

My last golden, Emma, was water obsessed. Josie loves the water, but not near as much as Emma did. I drove up to my parent's on an early Sunday morning and the plan was to drop Emma off at their house before meeting them at church. I opened my car door and Emma shot out of the car, ran full tilt out to the end of the dock and jumped off. I hadn't even thrown anything for her. She just wanted to swim. We hadn't been there for over a month and I guess she was missing it.  Nothing like smelling like wet dog while sitting with your family during church and getting the "look" from your mom! :doh:


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## kellyguy

"Janice Gunn, Betsy Scapicchio, Adele Yunck... <- These are people to look up."

Thanks so much. I'm shopping now.


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## AmberSunrise

I can highly recommend Denise Fenzi and her Dog Sports Academy (online training fenzidogsportsacademy.com), Agility-U, Say Yes (pricey but the courses run a year and can be extended even longer).

Megora's response as well 



kellyguy said:


> "Janice Gunn, Betsy Scapicchio, Adele Yunck... <- These are people to look up."
> 
> Thanks so much. I'm shopping now.


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## hotel4dogs

totally depends on the dog. For Tito, "less is more". We didn't practice outside of our weekly class.


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## TheZ's

hotel4dogs said:


> totally depends on the dog. For Tito, "less is more". We didn't practice outside of our weekly class.


Tito got his UDX without practicing outside of his weekly class??? I'm not sure whether to be encouraged or to forget about obedience. Who was his trainer?


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> totally depends on the dog. For Tito, "less is more". We didn't practice outside of our weekly class.


Barb - if you had to do it again, would you have practiced more? Would it have made him an OTCH dog? Or basically what would you have done differently with him.... that you will do differently with the next dog? 

This is something I've always been curious about - especially talking to and listening to various very experienced people on what they've done differently, especially based on their experiences with prior dogs or what they felt were weaknesses. Adele makes a big deal about training rhythm heeling and practicing heeling on a daily basis.... because she felt that was a weak area with prior dogs (who I thought were beautiful workers out there). She also does daily stays with her dogs because that had been a weak area with past dogs.


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## hotel4dogs

It's just the way he is, he is easily bored with repetition, so no, we didn't practice outside of class. We did a regular class once a week, and a drop in class once a week (you got 15 minutes in the ring by yourself). 
His trainer was....me! I did get a lot of advice from some people in this area who are very well known in the obedience world. Some of it good, some of it not so great.


edit to add....I take that back, we did practice articles at home for a couple of weeks.




TheZ's said:


> Tito got his UDX without practicing outside of his weekly class??? I'm not sure whether to be encouraged or to forget about obedience. Who was his trainer?


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## hotel4dogs

No, I absolutely would NOT have practiced more. He didn't need it. Really really.
But what I would for sure have done differently is I would have been more motivational. He was just so good at everything that I never really bothered to make it FUN for him. So he doesn't really like obedience. He does it, just because he will do whatever I ask of him. When he learned things in 2 or 3 attempts, I never bothered going back and doing it in a fun way. 
Would it have made him an OTCH dog? No. Because that's never been one of my goals. I don't have what it takes to dedicate the time to getting an OTCH. The people around here who do it show many (most) weekends of the year, year in, year out. But would it have made him a better obedience dog, probably. 
While I like competitive obedience, there are some parts of it that I just don't *get* and don't do, like the heads up, prancing heeling. Not to insult anyone, but that strikes me as ludicrous, and some people have taken it to such an extreme that the dog actually hampers the handler's forward progress. A lot of it has become "flashy", like the jumping in the air swing finishes, etc., most of which is pretty but pointless. I can't imagine what, if anything, that is supposed to have to do with a dog's obedience.
I also can not for the life of me imagine heeling my dog around in a circle day in, day out, day in, day out, hoping he gets a tiny bit better at it. While I realize some dogs do enjoy the training (especially if they've had a good, motivational trainer, unlike me), there are just too many other things that I wanted to do with him. Agility. Field. Breed ring. Tracking. Dock diving. Too little time and money, too many goals!




Megora said:


> Barb - if you had to do it again, would you have practiced more? Would it have made him an OTCH dog? Or basically what would you have done differently with him.... that you will do differently with the next dog?
> 
> This is something I've always been curious about - especially talking to and listening to various very experienced people on what they've done differently, especially based on their experiences with prior dogs or what they felt were weaknesses. Adele makes a big deal about training rhythm heeling and practicing heeling on a daily basis.... because she felt that was a weak area with prior dogs (who I thought were beautiful workers out there). She also does daily stays with her dogs because that had been a weak area with past dogs.


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## abradshaw71

hotel4dogs said:


> No, I absolutely would NOT have practiced more. He didn't need it. Really really.
> But what I would for sure have done differently is I would have been more motivational. He was just so good at everything that I never really bothered to make it FUN for him. So he doesn't really like obedience. He does it, just because he will do whatever I ask of him. When he learned things in 2 or 3 attempts, I never bothered going back and doing it in a fun way.
> Would it have made him an OTCH dog? No. Because that's never been one of my goals. I don't have what it takes to dedicate the time to getting an OTCH. The people around here who do it show many (most) weekends of the year, year in, year out. But would it have made him a better obedience dog, probably.
> While I like competitive obedience, there are some parts of it that I just don't *get* and don't do, like the heads up, prancing heeling. Not to insult anyone, but that strikes me as ludicrous, and some people have taken it to such an extreme that the dog actually hampers the handler's forward progress. A lot of it has become "flashy", like the jumping in the air swing finishes, etc., most of which is pretty but pointless. I can't imagine what, if anything, that is supposed to have to do with a dog's obedience.
> I also can not for the life of me imagine heeling my dog around in a circle day in, day out, day in, day out, hoping he gets a tiny bit better at it. While I realize some dogs do enjoy the training (especially if they've had a good, motivational trainer, unlike me), there are just too many other things that I wanted to do with him. Agility. Field. Breed ring. Tracking. Dock diving. Too little time and money, too many goals!


I have just added to my bucket list: Must meet Tito in person!


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## hotel4dogs

Thanks, he's been a lot of fun. I never dreamed I would share my life with a dog like him, my previous 2 were NOTHING like him, and we never got past Novice A with either one. He's a once in a lifetime dog. 
Our conformation instructor said to me one day, "some day you may have a better looking Golden, and some day you might even have a smarter Golden. But you will never, ever have a BETTER Golden than Tito". 



abradshaw71 said:


> I have just added to my bucket list: Must meet Tito in person!


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## Megora

> While I like competitive obedience, there are some parts of it that I just don't *get* and don't do, like the heads up, prancing heeling. Not to insult anyone, but that strikes me as ludicrous, and some people have taken it to such an extreme that the dog actually hampers the handler's forward progress. A lot of it has become "flashy", like the jumping in the air swing finishes, etc., most of which is pretty but pointless. I can't imagine what, if anything, that is supposed to have to do with a dog's obedience.


 I like the flash and show - at least with dogs who move very well.... but I think I agree where some people lose points on apparent forging and bumps.... 

With Jacks - I have a very high flip swing finish.... but it was something I only used once in the ring. And that was when I was fairly confident we had lost a few points anyway and wouldn't get placements (the competition in the Nov B ring was tough that weekend). With Jacks when he does his flip swing, he pops up and licks my face while flipping his body around into heel position. Whether the flinch or the bump - I was guaranteed a 1/2 to whole point off for that.


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## hotel4dogs

I've posted this before, but this pretty well sums it up. Tito at 8 weeks old:


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## abradshaw71

hotel4dogs said:


> I've posted this before, but this pretty well sums it up. Tito at 8 weeks old:


If you're ever in Michigan, please let me know. I would love to see Tito in action at an event.


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## hotel4dogs

Some of Tito's best events have been in Michigan, we love going there. He took best of winners over 70+ other Goldens at the mid-Michigan specialty and got a UDX leg there the same day. For which he got a standing ovation....he got two four-point major wins that weekend. Also finished his CH at Kalamazoo that same year.
We LOVE Michigan, it's been good to us.

We're hoping to enter obedience, agility, field, and conformation at the National in 2015, which is in Ohio.


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## TheZ's

hotel4dogs said:


> It's just the way he is, he is easily bored with repetition, so no, we didn't practice outside of class. We did a regular class once a week, and a drop in class once a week (you got 15 minutes in the ring by yourself).
> His trainer was....me! I did get a lot of advice from some people in this area who are very well known in the obedience world. Some of it good, some of it not so great.


This just really amazes me . . . you and Tito really are quite a team.

_"While I like competitive obedience, there are some parts of it that I just don't *get* and don't do, like the heads up, prancing heeling. Not to insult anyone, but that strikes me as ludicrous, and some people have taken it to such an extreme that the dog actually hampers the handler's forward progress. A lot of it has become "flashy", like the jumping in the air swing finishes, etc., most of which is pretty but pointless. I can't imagine what, if anything, that is supposed to have to do with a dog's obedience."

_I agree with most of this but my limited experience with Gracie so far, I'd say she has a natural tendency to prance a bit when she's heeling and sometimes to jump around on her finish. To the extent it displays enthusiasm and energy I don't think I would want to train it out of her unless it were interfering with proper performance. I'm sure this must be true of some other dogs who exhibit this type of style.

eta: Love the picture of Tito at 8 weeks.


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## K9-Design

hotel4dogs said:


> While I like competitive obedience, there are some parts of it that I just don't *get* and don't do, like the heads up, prancing heeling. Not to insult anyone, but that strikes me as ludicrous, and some people have taken it to such an extreme that the dog actually hampers the handler's forward progress. A lot of it has become "flashy", like the jumping in the air swing finishes, etc., most of which is pretty but pointless. I can't imagine what, if anything, that is supposed to have to do with a dog's obedience.
> I also can not for the life of me imagine heeling my dog around in a circle day in, day out, day in, day out, hoping he gets a tiny bit better at it. While I realize some dogs do enjoy the training (especially if they've had a good, motivational trainer, unlike me), there are just too many other things that I wanted to do with him. Agility. Field. Breed ring. Tracking. Dock diving. Too little time and money, too many goals!


Point ---> counterpoint
In 10 Novice B runs, Slater was NEVER docked a SINGLE point for : lagging, wide about turns, slow sits, no sits. Yes, we got hit for bumping/crowding by some judges. Other judges had no problem and gave us really super heeling scores. A green ribbon doesn't make me happy. An unbelievable and memorable performance makes me really happy. To Slater, heeling close is putting in extra effort. If he is willing to give me EXTRA HARD WORK in the ring -- I will take it every day of the week if it means the occasional point off for bumping. Because that dog is going to last a long time in the obedience ring. Not a few weekends to get a title, but years to compete and campaign an OTCH. 
So there is a reason to train for this other than just wanting to be flashy. It's not pointless. If the dog enjoys his work that much and takes his obedience with that much conviction -- he is going to BRING IT in the ring for a lot longer than one who doesn't. I don't want my dog to ever quit in the ring and I don't want anyone to ever watch my dog in the ring and think "this is no fun." 
Titles are great. I love titles. I am a title hound. With Fisher I ran out and got every title I could as soon as I could. But now I find the challenge is not the little letters, it's HOW my dog performs to get those letters. The letters will come. My challenge is to do it to the best of my ability.


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## hotel4dogs

just curious, why would you show 10 times in Novice B?
(I guess it's just so hard for me to get off on weekends and get to shows, I forget not everyone has those limitations).


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## hotel4dogs

I guess I didn't say that the way I meant to. There's a big difference between prancing while heeling (which is very attractive looking) and heeling with the head pointing almost at the ceiling, legs stiff, cutting the handler off while walking. If you see it, you'll know what I'm talking about. I like prancing, it's a happy dog!




TheZ's said:


> This just really amazes me . . . you and Tito really are quite a team.
> 
> _"While I like competitive obedience, there are some parts of it that I just don't *get* and don't do, like the heads up, prancing heeling. Not to insult anyone, but that strikes me as ludicrous, and some people have taken it to such an extreme that the dog actually hampers the handler's forward progress. A lot of it has become "flashy", like the jumping in the air swing finishes, etc., most of which is pretty but pointless. I can't imagine what, if anything, that is supposed to have to do with a dog's obedience."
> 
> _I agree with most of this but my limited experience with Gracie so far, I'd say she has a natural tendency to prance a bit when she's heeling and sometimes to jump around on her finish. To the extent it displays enthusiasm and energy I don't think I would want to train it out of her unless it were interfering with proper performance. I'm sure this must be true of some other dogs who exhibit this type of style.
> 
> eta: Love the picture of Tito at 8 weeks.


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## hotel4dogs

Here is an attentive dog, heeling beautifully but still maintaining a normal gait (as versus chopping with the legs like a hackney), heads up and happy, but not interfering with the handler's progress. A joy to watch.
Dee Dee Anderson & Dream - Perfect 200 | Competition Obedience | Pint…
I can't post a video of what I consider taking it to a ridiculous extreme, for obvious reasons!


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## hotel4dogs

Tito is my Fisher, and I know exactly what you are saying. He is my first obedience dog, first agility dog, first field dog, first conformation dog, first tracking dog. 



K9-Design said:


> Titles are great. I love titles. I am a title hound. With Fisher I ran out and got every title I could as soon as I could. But now I find the challenge is not the little letters, it's HOW my dog performs to get those letters. The letters will come. My challenge is to do it to the best of my ability.


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> Here is an attentive dog, heeling beautifully but still maintaining a normal gait (as versus chopping with the legs like a hackney)....


Barb - don't you think some of that might have something to do with the structure of the dog? (like if the dog is better developed behind than in front) - And the energy level of the dog as well - case in point -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AMLfFg3Yqg


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## hotel4dogs

nope, I think it's the way the dog has been taught.



Megora said:


> Barb - don't you think some of that might have something to do with the structure of the dog? (like if the dog is better developed behind than in front) - And the energy level of the dog as well - case in point -
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AMLfFg3Yqg


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## Maxs Mom

I know for a fact, Bridget teaches her dogs to heel like that. She spends many months/hours working hard to get that heel. She has told people at her seminars just that. She worked with me and Gabby to teach me how to get Gabby to heel that way. Well Gabby is my novice A dog, I needed to teach me first. I hope she isn't disappointed in me but Gabby gets high scores pacing next to me. 

What I do not like about obedience is when people train the heck out of their dogs and they go in the ring looking like A) robots or B) dogs who want to be anywhere but where they are. These same dogs do well, so the owners just keep going. My goal is to learn to handle Gabby on the edge. I want her to look like she could explode at any moment but never does.


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## Megora

hotel4dogs said:


> I think it's the way the dog has been taught.


I agree, but do you think that structure plays a role as far as whether a dog looks to be driving completely from the rear so it's partially rearing up in front? As opposed to effortlessly gliding in heel position like Dream? 

I kinda assume all these people train the same way - it just comes out differently from dog to dog?

@Ann - you probably will see Bertie pacing tomorrow.... >.< And or there are two things I'm working on while training heel position with him. I want him driving in heel position.... without pacing or forging. And with him I sometimes get one or the other while we are still training and cleaning up.


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## Loisiana

I'm pretty sure Dee Dee and Bridget don't train heeling the same way. Bridget specifically trains for her dogs' style of heeling. I doubt Dee Dee is trying for that much lift in any of her dogs.


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## K9-Design

hotel4dogs said:


> just curious, why would you show 10 times in Novice B?
> (I guess it's just so hard for me to get off on weekends and get to shows, I forget not everyone has those limitations).



I spent a lot of time training my dog and wanted to show him off 
He won his class 7 out of 10 times and had two all breed HITs which was my goal for Novice.


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## gldnboys

Megora said:


> I want him driving in heel position.... without pacing or forging. And with him I sometimes get one or the other while we are still training and cleaning up.


With my current dog, that was when he started to prance. He had previously had the tendency to pace on occasion in order to maintain heel position, no matter how quickly I moved, and it was as if that energy and momentum had to go somewhere.... So whatever energy wasn't spent going forward went into a bouncier gait. Mind you, this dog has a lot of drive and attitude, so that type of heeling suits his personality as well - I didn't teach it to him as such, but I did reinforce it when he offered it, since to me it was much better than pacing. So I guess I'm partly responsible (or to blame?!) as well.


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## gldnboys

Maxs Mom said:


> My goal is to learn to handle Gabby on the edge. I want her to look like she could explode at any moment but never does.


Haha, I have a dog like this.... Hang on - you're in for a wild ride, LOL. It sure is fun - and exhilarating - though! :bowl:


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## Loisiana

I showed Conner in novice 18 times! (Actually make that 19, there was an NQ in there). Colby and Flip would have been shown longer in novice if I could have, but they both went HIT their first time out after their 60 days.


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## Laurie

hotel4dogs said:


> Here is an attentive dog, heeling beautifully but still maintaining a normal gait (as versus chopping with the legs like a hackney), heads up and happy, but not interfering with the handler's progress. A joy to watch.
> Dee Dee Anderson & Dream - Perfect 200 | Competition Obedience | Pint…
> I can't post a video of what I consider taking it to a ridiculous extreme, for obvious reasons!


That was beautiful to watch!!! That's exactly what I want from Lexx. Unfortunately he's stuck with me as a trainer.:doh:


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## TheZ's

hotel4dogs said:


> Here is an attentive dog, heeling beautifully but still maintaining a normal gait (as versus chopping with the legs like a hackney), heads up and happy, but not interfering with the handler's progress. A joy to watch.
> Dee Dee Anderson & Dream - Perfect 200 | Competition Obedience | Pint…


I really admire this work. When I was just starting to train Zoe for obedience our trainer had us watch it as well as some not so good performances. I've watched it a number of times to help visualize how to move through the novice exercises properly.


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## Megora

gldnboys said:


> With my current dog, that was when he started to prance. He had previously had the tendency to pace on occasion in order to maintain heel position, no matter how quickly I moved, and it was as if that energy and momentum had to go somewhere.... So whatever energy wasn't spent going forward went into a bouncier gait. Mind you, this dog has a lot of drive and attitude, so that type of heeling suits his personality as well - I didn't teach it to him as such, but I did reinforce it when he offered it, since to me it was much better than pacing. So I guess I'm partly responsible (or to blame?!) as well.


When Bertie is prancing, he is gorgeous - it's what I absolutely prefer with him. Just not forging though.


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## Megora

Loisiana said:


> I'm pretty sure Dee Dee and Bridget don't train heeling the same way. Bridget specifically trains for her dogs' style of heeling. I doubt Dee Dee is trying for that much lift in any of her dogs.


Okay.... I see this here (just googled a few videos aside from those that I've usually seen shared). 

While Dee Dee definitely had heads up heeling with Dream, it was not to this extreme. I do fall in the same camp as Barb on this then (I would not want to see my goldens working like this).


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## hotel4dogs

just a word to the wise, it's okay to post videos of things you like, such as the Dee Dee and Dream video, but let's be careful posting any videos we are critical of, unless it's of our own dogs.


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## gldnboys

Megora said:


> When Bertie is prancing, he is gorgeous - it's what I absolutely prefer with him. Just not forging though.


Well, he's still a young lad, so there's time for that to settle.  I'd definitely rather deal with forging than lagging, though - FWIW. Drive and motivation are good things!


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## K9-Design

Haha yeah right. If you guys woke up and your dogs magically heeled like Streaker you wouldn't exactly tell them to knock it off.


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## sdhgolden

I think the flashy dogs offer this type of behavior because they are excited and thoroughly enjoying working with their owners. I think that's a good thing. I say this because when I ask Ben to do a short finish on my left he is SO excited he just jumps and lands in place. It cracks me up. I definitely did not teach it that way, I wouldn't even know how. He is so excited and eager to please he almost looks like he's gonna explode. When he does that kind of a finish I think it's his way of releasing some excitement. He is hilarious in class because he is having too much fun. While everyone else is getting excited and encouraging their dogs to get more excited about working, I am trying to remain as calm as possible because he's already so excited. My girl Charlie on the other hand gets bored easily. She is a smarty pants though but a lot more cool and collected I guess than Ben. It's very strange going from working with a dog like Ben and then to a dog like Charlie. Both are smart, fun and eager to please but so different. It does take more repetition for Ben to learn to do things precisely because sometimes he's so excited he cheats. But Charlie seems to do things right each time. 
I usually train around 2 times a week for 5-15 minutes outside of class which is once a week. Other than that I practice as part of our daily routines like sitting and waiting at the door, for food, down stays in public, etc. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


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## IndyBindy

I just got a new pup, he's a really drivey lab from heavy FC/AFC lines.... So he's got a lot of go. I'm using Bridgets methods to teach him to heel. The biggest benefit I see so far is that he has somewhere to go with his drive (and that is UP, lol). I think if I just held him back, he'd be forging and crabbing like crazy. 

And as for how long to work a dog, my older guy's mind will last longer than his body, any day. He has tons of mental stamina, he'd train obedience all day long and do a great job. He's really fun in that way, we can make use of the days where I have lots of time to train! But I sure don't train my pup like that. He's 4 months old, so we work in short sessions, but he's learning to stay focused longer every day


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## Loisiana

K9-Design said:


> Haha yeah right. If you guys woke up and your dogs magically heeled like Streaker you wouldn't exactly tell them to knock it off.


I would (and do), I just prefer a smoother heel. But I'm one who prefers a smooth working dog to one who's on the edge. Personal preference.


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## Megora

K9-Design said:


> Haha yeah right. If you guys woke up and your dogs magically heeled like Streaker you wouldn't exactly tell them to knock it off.


I don't know if I'd want the rear squatting and bouncing (which I have with Bertie and am working to fix) like I saw in the video (which I removed), but I definitely would take the dog totally committed to heel position which I saw in the video.


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## abradshaw71

Josie did great at the lake today. I let her do some water retrievals and play for a bit. She was bringing everything back to my hand! This is huge for her. In the past, it was a game of chase me and catch me. Much more relaxing this way. 

My dad came outside to watch for a while and I decided to switch over to obedience. She did great with him watching and the water around her. Not perfect, but much better than I thought she would. She had a few silly moments, but that didn't surprise me. She was showing off for my dad. Got the bumper back out and had more success with retrieving. Josie was so happy to be back in the water!


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## Thalie

I have now come to the conclusion (with the help of lots of posts in the training section and of my pet classes trainer) that my training sessions are too long and not planned enough. This is something I will have to find a way to remedy (with a timer and a notecard I think) in order to make progress. I am a very routine person my free time goes in chunks : 15 minutes to fold laundry, 15 minutes to train Col, 15 minutes to prep supper, 15 minutes to feed snack, 45 minutes to walk Col and so on. Thankfully summer break is coming soon and I will have more opportunities to do shorter and more frequent sessions and to develop a more focused plan of training.


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## LittleRedDawg

Depends on the dog and level of training. You have to build up to a long attention span. Lately I train about 1 1/2 hours - 2 hours a day, including set up/take down, with two dogs working open and utility. I usually swap dogs about every 15 minutes, but I've worked an hour straight when I only have one dog to train. (But- you have to both have enough exercises to fill that time with variety, and have trained a good enough work ethic.)

In a pup doing basics - heel, recall, stays, stand - I do about 10-20 minutes. Just not enough of a foundation or enough exercises in the tool bag to work them any longer.

Also- you're right, training sessions need goals. If I don't have something specific I need to teach my dogs, I'm not going to train them. I have plenty of other things I could do with that time.


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