# Do vets get kickbacks...



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

...for the foods they promote and/or sell at their clinics? Why does it seem many of them sell and promote science diet--it doesn't look like great food to me!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

This is just an opinion of someone who works at a Vet clinic and hopes to be a vet someday...

In vet school you get a lot of free stuff for your own pets including food, HWT, preventative from the different pharmaceutical and prescription and non prescription food companies (ranging from Science Diet to Purina to Innova!!) I think they try and build a relationship with you early in your career. Afterall, don't we as pet owners recommend to others that which we're most familiar?? I spoke with a pharm. rep from Fort Dodge a while back and he said that a lot of the vets go with them because it is the brand that ____ vet school used, and the vets feel comfortable with it. As far as kickbacks- I don't think that is the case, but I don't ever see the bills!  I just know that they get it at a special price for re-sale just like any other store. The prescription diets are formulated for special conditions. There are others out there like Royal Canin Prescription Diet, Purina Veterinary Formulas...


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## Bock (Jun 23, 2008)

That's what I hear on the streets...


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

I've heard that some do. Our vet's office only carries Purina brand foods.


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## jenlaur (Jun 24, 2009)

My vet sells Science diet and Royal Canin. I buy the SD dry and Canin wet urinary formulas for two of my cats. But they also sell Innova and California Natural. Seems like they are starting to pay closer attention to nutrition.


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## tennisball (Oct 14, 2009)

At the clinic where I work, every employee has the option to order Eukanuba/Iams wholesale, and I think the same goes for Hills, Purina and Royal Canin. Three of the four vets that work there order Hills for their pets, so I'm sure there's a discount there. Our hospital is interested in feeding j/d, so each vet got a free 10# bag to sample.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

I guess that would depend on what you consider kickbacks. Food is marked up over the purchase price just like any other product (although profit from food is a lot lower than meds, etc.). Every once in a great while one of the companies will give us each a free bag of food (I feed raw to my dogs and house cats, so I what ever I get goes to the barn kitties). And once or twice a year some of the companies send their rep to do a lunch and learn (only the companies we actually buy food from-not all of the different companies), so we get pizza or something else to eat while they tell us why their food is best. We don't have any sort of deal that we can only sell certain brands of food or that if we sell X amount we get money back, etc. And no trips to warm locations, as much as I'd like to be somewhere warm now!

You do get lots more free/cheap stuff in school. Hills was sold for like $.10 on the pound for SD, $.40 on the pound for prescription; you could get one free bag of Eukanuba/Iams a month; Waltham (now Royal Canin) had some program; not sure about Purina.

As to why the promote/sell SD: well if you look at the ingredient list of most of the prescription foods, none are what many would call "good". Unfortunately sometimes animals have specific dietary needs because of disease processes and sometimes those needs outweigh the desire to feed higher quality food. The prescription diets have been tested to provide what is needed for those needs. OTC foods have not. I wish the companies or a new company could make prescription foods that were more natural, but Hills, etc. really have no desire to do so. Those foods would be soooo expensive (have you priced prescription foods with crappy ingredients lately? Double that easily if you want good ingredients!). It's fun to play with Hills rep on the rare occassions we see her. They made the mistake of our clinic being one of the first stops for a new rep one time. She had to take several questions back to her superiors and then never answered them satisfactorily. For some reason we don't see her very often...

If you are asking about SD itself, not the prescription diets, I have no idea why a vet clinic would try to sell those, unless there aren't many options for buying food other than the grocery store in the area. With the big pet stores selling SD, there is no way we can even come close to competing price-wise (they sell it for what we could buy it for). We stopped carrying maintenance foods for a couple of years and have only recently brought back maintenance food. But we only carry one company and it is veterinary exclusive (iVet-it's actually not the worst food in the world, ingredient-wise and it's priced fairly similar to Iams).

Sorry for the book. I'd be happy to answer any additional specific questions about food or "kick-backs" or anything else.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

IowaGold said:


> I guess that would depend on what you consider kickbacks. Food is marked up over the purchase price just like any other product (although profit from food is a lot lower than meds, etc.). Every once in a great while one of the companies will give us each a free bag of food (I feed raw to my dogs and house cats, so I what ever I get goes to the barn kitties). And once or twice a year some of the companies send their rep to do a lunch and learn (only the companies we actually buy food from-not all of the different companies), so we get pizza or something else to eat while they tell us why their food is best. We don't have any sort of deal that we can only sell certain brands of food or that if we sell X amount we get money back, etc. And no trips to warm locations, as much as I'd like to be somewhere warm now!
> 
> You do get lots more free/cheap stuff in school. Hills was sold for like $.10 on the pound for SD, $.40 on the pound for prescription; you could get one free bag of Eukanuba/Iams a month; Waltham (now Royal Canin) had some program; not sure about Purina.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Very helpful, and I love to hear that you feed raw and are a vet  Vets I have encountered seem to think raw is awful...

I just don't understand why so many vets seem to carry science diet in their clinics and recommend the food to their clients--short of prescription diets for dogs with special needs. It doesn't look like a very good food by the ingredient list.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I cannot imagine why else they would sell garbage like SD (with the exception of special diets).


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Thank you! Very helpful, and I love to hear that you feed raw and are a vet  Vets I have encountered seem to think raw is awful...
> 
> I just don't understand why so many vets seem to carry science diet in their clinics and recommend the food to their clients--short of prescription diets for dogs with special needs. It doesn't look like a very good food by the ingredient list.


My boss would be like that (if I let him...). He honestly doesn't look at or think about the ingredient list at all. So much about pet nutrition is smoke and mirrors. To hear the SD people talk, their corn gluten meal and by-products are the best things you can put in pet food. They can recite the "reasoning" behind all the crap things. And if nutrition isn't one of your special interests, then you fall for it.

I've managed to "brain wash" most of the people I work with. One now feeds raw (she had a fairly young pet die of cancer), one feeds Solid Gold, one was feeding "good" food until her dog developed some sort of food allergy (he's on z/d now). Not sure what the receptionists feed. I'll have to ask on Monday when I see them again (YAY, I don't have to work again for 4 days...Pheasant Fest, here I come!).

In my mind for my own pets, it comes down to are they carnivores or farm animals. I know it's a bit controversal to claim dogs are carnivores (which I believe), but there's no questions about cats being carnivores and even the staunch "dogs are omnivores" people have to admit that dogs are WAY more carnivorous than your average farm animal.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

IowaGold said:


> My boss would be like that (if I let him...). He honestly doesn't look at or think about the ingredient list at all. So much about pet nutrition is smoke and mirrors. To hear the SD people talk, their corn gluten meal and by-products are the best things you can put in pet food. They can recite the "reasoning" behind all the crap things. And if nutrition isn't one of your special interests, then you fall for it.


I've never worked in a vet's office, but I've always sort of suspected that this is the case. 
It seems like the marketing reps, who work for companies like Hills, are very good at what they do. And it seems like so many vets have only the most basic understanding of nutrition, at best. Which baffles me, really. I mean, you'd think that they would be more interested in their patients' diets. I don't think anyone would argue that nutrition is one of the most important building blocks for overall health. So you'd think that more vets would focus on it.

This is just one of the things I love about my vet. Every single one I had been to, before finding her, pushed Science Diet. This one only carries the prescription foods and my boys' diet was one of the first things she asked me about.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

Science Diet was Noah's lifeline as a pup - the only food (ZD) he could eat without being sick...and we tried many. I'm soooooooooooo greatful it was around as it helped him grow and become a healthy pup.

I'm not sure what sort of vets people are seeing but my vet would never give my dog anything harmful or push anything for $$$. He is all about the animals.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree that the prescription diets are really the only way to go when you are dealing with specific health issues. I wish there were other options, but there aren't. I have one cat who had 5 bladder stones removed and another who will develop a UTI any time I have tried to combine regular kibble with their prescription diet. So I am pretty much over a barrel and have no options on what to feed them. I pay $58 for a 16 lbs bag of cat food, which is pretty outrageous.


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## Stircrazy (Nov 30, 2009)

IowaGold said:


> As to why the promote/sell SD: well if you look at the ingredient list of most of the prescription foods, none are what many would call "good". Unfortunately sometimes animals have specific dietary needs because of disease processes and sometimes those needs outweigh the desire to feed higher quality food. The prescription diets have been tested to provide what is needed for those needs. OTC foods have not. I wish the companies or a new company could make prescription foods that were more natural, but Hills, etc. really have no desire to do so. Those foods would be soooo expensive (have you priced prescription foods with crappy ingredients lately? Double that easily if you want good ingredients!). It's fun to play with Hills rep on the rare occassions we see her. They made the mistake of our clinic being one of the first stops for a new rep one time. She had to take several questions back to her superiors and then never answered them satisfactorily. For some reason we don't see her very often...


I think your the first vet that hasn't tried to tell me why royal canin is a better quality food than orijen or some of the other top brands. to bad I can't find a vet out here that is uptodate in there views. out of the 4 I have tried I found one where we agree to disagree on food issues, but he is a little more moderen thinking on vaceens and such. the other 3 would almost get mad at me for feeding something other than what they recomend. 

Steve


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

LifeOfRiley said:


> And it seems like so many vets have only the most basic understanding of nutrition, at best. Which baffles me, really. I mean, you'd think that they would be more interested in their patients' diets. I don't think anyone would argue that nutrition is one of the most important building blocks for overall health. So you'd think that more vets would focus on it.


Obviously *I* find nutrition very facinating and interesting (if I hadn't got into vet school, I would have done a PhD in Animal Nutrition), but you are very correct about most vets only having basic understanding of nutrition. It's really no different than human doctors if you think about it. Only rarely have I ever had a human doctor talk with me about diet. 

If specific foods or ingredients could be firmly linked to causing whatever disease, I'm sure there would be more notice by the veterinary community of ingredients, etc. Example: Sure, we as pet owners, may suspect that feeding foods high in grains may have contributated to our dog dying of cancer. But not every dog (not even a majority of dogs) that eat the high grain food will develop cancer. Cancer is a multifactoral disease-genetics, environment, and yes, diet, all play roles in it's development. But there is no direct correlation between specific diets and cancer. I've known dogs eating Old Roy that got cancer, that eat Iams, that eat Innova, that eat raw. I've also know dogs that have eaten any of the above and lived to be 15.

I'm rambling again. Because I enjoy nutrition, I do try to help my clients choose better foods and that there are more differences than simply price between foods. But I also think if I have a client that really cares what they feed their dog, they will do that research on their own too and my opinion will just be a very small part of that research. Unlike on this forum, there are thousands and thousands of pet owners who's only research on foods is price and will the pet eat it. Just like there are thousands of people who prefer take-out and processed foods for their family rather than whole, home-made foods.

So my point with that last paragraph is, that were I a pet owner and looking for a veterinarian, I would do my own research on diets, ignore the push for SD/spiel against raw, and find a vet who was very good at diagnosing problems/surgery rather than possibly sacrificing skill for nutrition knowledge (of course sometimes you get lucky and find someone like me who is good at both...).


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

Vets make a profit off the food they sell, just like pet stores do. But vets carry brands like Hills and Medi-cal because they have prescription diets that are only available throught vets (since they may not be appropriate for all animals). I'm not sure if my vet clinic sells the regular science diet and royal canin products, but if they do I would imagine it is because they are allready ordering from those companies, and believe the food is good quality based on years of research.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I have only used Science Diet on two occasions in all my pet owning years.

The first time, was for a cat that was getting urinary tract problems. At that time it was the only formula available for such a problem. Once I found all natural cat food, that was formulated correctly then I started buying that.

The second time was just last month when MacKenzie had the runs for two weeks. It was getting very inconvenient to be making a homemade bland diet, and it did not seem to be filling her up. I bought 4 days worth of the bland science diet, and it helped with her recovery, was easy for the rest of my family to feed her, and I knew I was feeding her the proper amount. I do not know of any other food out there that has the "bland diet" and I will probably always keep a couple cans in my cupboard for emergencies.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

cubbysan said:


> I do not know of any other food out there that has the "bland diet" and I will probably always keep a couple cans in my cupboard for emergencies.


All of the prescription diets companies have a bland diet.

Hill's=i/d
Royal Canin=Digestive Low Fat
Iams/Eukanuba=Low Residue
Purina=EN


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

IowaGold said:


> Obviously *I* find nutrition very facinating and interesting (if I hadn't got into vet school, I would have done a PhD in Animal Nutrition), but you are very correct about most vets only having basic understanding of nutrition. It's really no different than human doctors if you think about it. Only rarely have I ever had a human doctor talk with me about diet.
> 
> If specific foods or ingredients could be firmly linked to causing whatever disease, I'm sure there would be more notice by the veterinary community of ingredients, etc. Example: Sure, we as pet owners, may suspect that feeding foods high in grains may have contributated to our dog dying of cancer. But not every dog (not even a majority of dogs) that eat the high grain food will develop cancer. Cancer is a multifactoral disease-genetics, environment, and yes, diet, all play roles in it's development. But there is no direct correlation between specific diets and cancer. I've known dogs eating Old Roy that got cancer, that eat Iams, that eat Innova, that eat raw. I've also know dogs that have eaten any of the above and lived to be 15.
> 
> ...


*
*

I can relate to your entire post - being in a family with a physician (for humans). There is so much to study and learn about disease processes, etc. that being highly knowledgeable about nutrition seems to happen only by personal interest and pursuit. I think it's such a backwards process in Western medicine (human or animal) to focus on treating disease as opposed to focusing on preventive lifestyle and nutrition. Kudos to you. If I still lived in the Quad Cities I'd be tempted to travel the distance to have you as the vet for my dogs.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

My Vet doesn't push any products. I believe they do keep a supply of SD on hand for those clients that need and want it. I know one of the Vet's said he'd rather use the space for another examining room, rather than store product.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

IowaGold said:


> So my point with that last paragraph is, that were I a pet owner and looking for a veterinarian, I would do my own research on diets, ignore the push for SD/spiel against raw, and find a vet who was very good at diagnosing problems/surgery rather than possibly sacrificing skill for nutrition knowledge (of course sometimes you get lucky and find someone like me who is good at both...).



Good post! I think you sound like a great vet  I'm lucky enough to have found an awesome vet just down the road from my house who not only supports my decision to feed raw, delay neutering until maturity, and doesn't push the annual vaccine issue, but actually seems to love her job and her patients. We switched from another vet who was the polar opposite.. I wish there were more vets like you and the vet I see now.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Thank you all for the kind comments!


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## Toffifay (Dec 29, 2009)

My Vet's office doesn't sell Science Diet or any other non prescription foods, but they do sell Hill's Prescription diet. I have been battling allergies with one of my dogs and they recommended Innova. 

Unfortunately, Innova doesn't help my dog. Nor does any other food I've tried (and I've bought many!) So, we are trying Hill's Z/D Ultra and much to my amazement...it's helping! I honestly didn't think it would! I know the ingredients are pitiful, the protein content is terribly low and it has half the calories of the premium foods, but she is so much more comfortable. I am extremely grateful to Hill's scientists for making this food and I'm really glad my Vet recommended it.


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