# Flip and the gunner



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

HAHAHAHAHA Yes labs NEVER do things like this, what were you thinking getting a golden????

Have gunners throw LONG FLAT THROWS. Decrease the distance of the gunner until you get success. Birds/bumpers should ALWAYS be covered up in the blind. Have the gunner re-throw a 2nd bird to the same area as the dog is halfway out (keeps the dog's momentum toward the fall). Keep cover SHORT so the dog can SEE the bird/big white bumper as he runs toward it. Use big white bumpers!!!
I personally think having the gunner throw a bird to get the dog away from him was a bad idea. You just rewarded the dog with another throw. 
If the dog goes to the gunner and stands there, YOU need to walk out there and get him. Walk back toward the line 15-20 yards, have the gunner rethrow the same mark and retrieve it from there. That way the fall vs. gunner are so far apart, you can instantly call the dog back if he goes toward the gunner. Do NOT have the gunner do ANYTHING -- whether it's something positive like throwing or verbally encouraging the dog, or anything negative like yelling or shooing the dog away. You want gunners in the field to be absolutely neutral -- not someone to take direction from, and not something scary! (For a time Fisher was AFRAID of gunners because some nerd stomped and screamed when he went to investigate a gunner...duh...to this day he rarely takes help from a gunner if needed.)
Frankly with a puppy, you probably got this because you increased distance and/or cover to quickly. He couldn't find it right away so he winded the gunner and was rewarded with a bird. Now he thinks the point is, that guy sitting there has the birds.
Decrease distance and cover.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good advice Anney! This is what we have been working on with Breeze trying to build her confidence, throw another bumper as soon as she drops her head as if to set up a hunt.

Jodie....Shame on you (and you know why)!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Frankly with a puppy, you probably got this because you increased distance and/or cover to quickly.


I agree.....I think the topic of my post on the other forum should have actually been "how to train a retriever that won't drop dead before it stops retrieving, no matter what you throw at it."

The trainer I'm working with goes with the philosophy of throwing as much as you can at the dog and keep pushing it. While I've always trained with more of a build slowly on your successes philosophy. He looks at the end result...as long as the dog was successful with what we were getting it to do after a few marks, then the dog learned something. I, on the other hand, look at all the problems we have to work through to get to that end result and worry about long-term effects it might have, like confidence issues.

So when our ideas of how to approach something differ, I'm not sure which way to go....he has a lot of experience doing field training, but has no experience training dogs like mine. I have lots of experience with my own dogs, but not much experience with field work.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would ask your trainer what it is he is trying to accomplish with each session. 

In my situation, Dooley was slowing early (about 20' before the area of the fall) no matter what distance the mark was. So we analyzed the situation and determined that I was throwing too many flat marks - straight out from me/gunner. So we began doing angle back marks to make Dooley run past the gunner to get to the mark. It worked great! He is now running confidently over 200'. 

You know your dogs better than the trainer. Yes, he may be more familiar with field training, but at the end of the day, your dogs go home with you. Seek to understand what he is trying to get the dog to do and make the decision from there. Read Carol Cassity's book on drills, then ask to run drills you think would benefit your dogs work.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Jodie that is a sticky situation to be in. 
IMO there is a fine line between pushing the dog and asking for trouble. Yes, you have to make things harder otherwise you'll never go anywhere. On the other hand you can't set yourself up for failure.
Especially with a young dog, the tendency is to give them more than they can handle which can absolutely kill confidence. Or if it doesn't kill confidence, you constantly have to fix things and go back and repeat and in the long run you're no further ahead than if you went slowly and introduced things gradually. 
If you find that EVERY training session has a big problem you have to overcome, then you are asking too much. 
You are your dog's best advocate.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Jodie,

I think you've had some really great advice and now need to listen to that inner voice. 

Flip is a young dog and I think I would err on the side of building skills and confidence gradually. 

BTW: What other forum? Towhee went along for the ride yesterday to my field training and got some duck and pheasant work .. she should probably be sat down in front of her nephew's training videos LOL


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> BTW: What other forum?


over on the retriever training forum I asked a question about training golden retrievers for field work. Some poor fellow told me I need to just get a lab. LMAO did he get an earful for that! (and not from me!)

I decided what better way to celebrate Mother's Day than to have my mom throw some marks for Flip (which is always an experience in itself) to build up his confidence. I thought he did well.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> over on the retriever training forum I asked a question about training golden retrievers for field work. Some poor fellow told me I need to just get a lab. LMAO did he get an earful for that! (and not from me!)
> 
> I decided what better way to celebrate Mother's Day than to have my mom throw some marks for Flip (which is always an experience in itself) to build up his confidence. I thought he did well.


ROFLMAO - okay I wish my mom was alive to help me celebrate Mothers Day, but she would not have thrown bumpers .. your mom must really be a special lady


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Jodie, I will truly never ever be able to not laugh at your image of Mom turning into Fat Albert when throwing bumpers. Hope ya'll had a great day!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

LOL, I didn't hear too much Fat Albert this time. But let me tell ya, if you ever need to feel better about your own throwing skills five minutes of watching my mom attempt to throw will make you feel much better!

But I do appreciate anyone who's willing to provide free help, especially since_ I_ was supposed to helping _her_ today!


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