# AKC Obedience Advisory Board



## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I decided it would be a good idea to start talking about the AKC Obedience Advisory Committee's ideas as far as keeping numbers up in Obedience. Although I've been involved in Obediene for 2 years, and I haven't noticed any changes. Sure, we have our 'large' and 'small' shows, I think everyone can pick those up right away.

Also, the requests by fellow exhibitors were all over the Internet, e-mailing, and in the Front and Finish magazine. I didn't know what to say, other than maybe have a class for Juniors, but not many Jr.'s do Obedience anyway, so they won't listen. But, I think keeping the OTCh dogs away from people who are going for that, would be a great idea. 

I think many people turn to Agility and Rally, simply because they can be more 'fun'. Also, I think people can't find a good enough Obedience instructor, to fit their needs, so they find an Agility instructor and compete from there.

Also, a lot lately has been discussed as far as stays and out of sight stays. Some are really mad about them and others (like me), don't get what the fuss is about! If someone on here could explain what's going on to me and others, then maybe I'd get what's going on.

Also, the heeling patterns should be a little bit harder. The "B" classes should be harder, because simply the handler has handled and trained a dog before. Now, the "A" classes, should have different patterns.

I think that's all I have to say for now. I'd like to hear what you guys think.

Comment away!

-C


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Obedience is just not that fun of a sport except for people who find it fun (if that makes any sense). Even if they add classes that are all on leash or are meant to transition between levels or whatever, they're still basically obedience. And adding rally-type turns to regular obedience (weren't they thinking of doing that?) might not go over too well with old-timers.

AKC's programs have been around for so long with not much change, there is very rarely true need for a change that will "stick." The big changes in agility lately have been the FAST class, 26" jump height and Invitational (along with safer weave pole bases and bigger up contacts which were minor changes everyone's happy with). FAST doesn't usually get enough entries to offset the cost of putting it on, the 26" jump height is unpopular as well as causing several problems, and a lot of people who qualified for the Invitational went once and don't want to go anymore. People just don't like change.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> Obedience is just not that fun of a sport except for people who find it fun (if that makes any sense). Even if they add classes that are all on leash or are meant to transition between levels or whatever, they're still basically obedience. And adding rally-type turns to regular obedience (weren't they thinking of doing that?) might not go over too well with old-timers.
> 
> AKC's programs have been around for so long with not much change, there is very rarely true need for a change that will "stick." The big changes in agility lately have been the FAST class, 26" jump height and Invitational (along with safer weave pole bases and bigger up contacts which were minor changes everyone's happy with). FAST doesn't usually get enough entries to offset the cost of putting it on, the 26" jump height is unpopular as well as causing several problems, and a lot of people who qualified for the Invitational went once and don't want to go anymore. People just don't like change.


I understand what you're trying to say Katie, but Obedience is fun and it is a GREAT way to bring out the BEST in your dog. And I wouldn't be saying it's not fun, as agility can be more dangerous than Obedience (as far as injuries and such). I also wouldn't be harassing the "old-timers", they have been around this sport for longer than the years you and I have put together. Obedience isn't easy, and it's tough. You have professionals and ameteurs out there trying to reach their dreams and goals with their dogs. The older people have been also training and working their butts off, for many years, and have been in and out many, many times in frustrated, and some of them are self taught. So please, I ask you to not cut them down, they are just as important as we Jr.'s are to dog sports.

I hate the Rally moves in Obedience. I think they should have Crufts style heeling...or something that isn't too easy on the "B" dogs. Just my thoughts.

Katie, I'm not trying to cut you down or anything, but I'm just saying, nobody likes change...and I haven't been around (nor you), to tell what is right and what is wrong for the sport. If we had a world where everyone agreed...life would be odd.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

First off... I'm confused.... didn't you ask for opinions? I think Katie was just giving you her's.... 

And I have to agree with her... although I haven't officially venture into Obedience.... to me personally it just doesn't look "fun". It's all business, which is fine if that's what you're in too. That's the way obedience is... always has been... always will be. Personally, I'm not in to that. At least not at this point in my life. I think since rally has gotten bigger now, people are realizing that there's something out there they can do prior to taking a stab at agility or anything else that's not quite as "up-tight" as obedience.... if that makes sense? In all honesty, if I wouldn't have found rally, I most likely wouldn't have gotten in to AKC events. I think starting out in obedience is simply a bit intimidating to the average person. Where as rally is something "fun"... you can talk to your dog, you can just go with it. The "average" person can start training for rally at home. I entered Camden in his first trial with only basic obedience class under his belt. He now has his rally novice title at 14 months old. Could I do that with obedience? Absolutely no way. 

So, while you enjoy it... others may not... so as far as keeping the numbers up... ?? I think the more people that get hooked on rally... the more numbers in obedience will go down. But who knows? I think there's always going to be people that find obedience fun and want to compete in that and then others that want something a bit different and will head the other direction. Whatever floats your boat!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

IMO, there's no reason that Nov B needs to be harder than Nov A. Heeling is heeling. Either your dog knows how to heel, or he doesn't, and if he knows how to heel, he'll do it regardless of what you throw in (more turns, changes of pace, etc.) to try and make it harder. Frankly, what's silly is to have so much heeling at the Novice level... there's three rounds of heeling and that's one of the harder things to *really* be good at.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

I also don't think B should be any harder than A. A green dog is a green dog regardless if the trainer is expirenced and I don't thinks its fair to make them compete at a different level. Novice should be novice. JMO. Do you really want it to be harder for you to take your next dog into the ring for the first time just because its not your A dog? How hard are you working with maddie now. Do you want the next time to be harder? 
Obediance is not fun for everyone. It takes a business mindset of the handler to enjoy that type of work. 
Each sport agility, OB and rally each appeal to people for different reasons. Rally is different and in its own way harder than tradtional ob as the handler has to read signs rather than fallow a judges orders. One sport it not better than another nor will one take away from another.
You certainly can bring out the best in you dog in a sport other than OB. Thinking that OB is the only way is a bit shortsighted. I know Katie certainly has brought out the "best" in dusty in agility and he lacks nothing in the relationship with his hadler for not having OB titles. 
Also I dislike the cruft style heeling as I believe it is very bad for a dogs neck. I am in training to be a Chiropractor and will pruse an animal Cirtification. I also have a dog with a neurlogical problem. I understand the long term consequsenses that a dog can develop always having its head turned to one side expically cranked around. A vet may not say the same thing because they are trained to see thing differently than what I am. While I do ask for attention I do not ask for her to heel with her head cocked around back at me. 
As for what will make tradtional ob more popular I think part of it is how we as a society have changed in our view of dogs as pets verse working animals with a job.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Okay, you completely misread my post. I have the greatest respect for people who do well in obedience and I love watching a really good obedience dog. But like any sport, either people think it's fun or they don't. Obedience just doesn't exactly make Joe Dog Owner go "wow, how fun!" And I'm not sure there's anything the advisory committee could do to change that.

Just as a general comment, you are way too quick to think in terms of "being cut down." I never said anything that "cuts down" the old-timers in obedience by simply stating the obvious fact that they won't want a lot of changes (in the same way that if they started messing with agility I would not be happy at all). And you didn't say anything that required the "I'm not trying to cut you down or anything" disclaimer. I assure you that my ego can be in no way affected by you either positively or negatively, and it would benefit you greatly to adopt a similar outlook.

(And Bizzy, thank you, I do think agility has brought out the best in Dusty )


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> Okay, you completely misread my post. I have the greatest respect for people who do well in obedience and I love watching a really good obedience dog. But like any sport, either people think it's fun or they don't. Obedience just doesn't exactly make Joe Dog Owner go "wow, how fun!" And I'm not sure there's anything the advisory committee could do to change that.
> 
> Just as a general comment, you are way too quick to think in terms of "being cut down." I never said anything that "cuts down" the old-timers in obedience by simply stating the obvious fact that they won't want a lot of changes (in the same way that if they started messing with agility I would not be happy at all). And you didn't say anything that required the "I'm not trying to cut you down or anything" disclaimer. I assure you that my ego can be in no way affected by you either positively or negatively, and it would benefit you greatly to adopt a similar outlook.
> 
> (And Bizzy, thank you, I do think agility has brought out the best in Dusty )


I'm sorry Katie, I DID misread your post. To me, it sounded like you were cutting down the people who have beein in this sport for as long as I've been alive. I am one of those who respect those who do this on a regular basis, and that's all they do is show dogs, breed, and train all day long.

You just seem to me that agility is all you do, so you could care less about obedience, but now I know. I'm sorry if I came hard on some of you, but things change and that's a way of life, and you have to adjust to it. In fact there are a few changes I'm making in my training ways/ my own life, and I'm adjusting to it pretty well.

To one of you who had said that you thought this was open discussion/opinions, yes it is, but I just disagreed with what people had said, that's all. So please don't be confused!

Second of all, as far as "crufts heeling"...I don't mean the style and the prancing of it, I mean what they do as far as the patterns of heeling. I'm not chiropractor or dog bone specialist, but I do EXPECT my dog to have attention on me. Maddie's neck shouldn't be bad, and I'm the least worried about it, it never crossed my mind. I've seen dogs heel with eyes up and heads up, with no problems...and they have OTCh's, and I imagine their owners do streches and masseges everyday.

You guys can think whatever you want as far as the A and B classes. But I think the Open and Utiltiy and maybe Novice should have different patterns, with more turns and harder stuff. I think it's fair because this could be their 13th dog in Novice, and they can pass with flying colors....etc. It wouldn't be fair to other exhibiors that they train ONLY for that certain pattern. Just my thoughts...

Also, as far as adding Rally moves to Obedience, I think is kinda stupid. Sure, Rally is ok, but I'm not a huge fan of it. Yes, I can honestly say I do Rally, but I'm not a worshiper of it. I LOVE teaching Obedience and although it's tough, the journey is the best part of it, not all the ribbons and people you beat. It's also about the people who help share and cheer for you, along your journey. I could care less about winning, I just want that good score and a good time in the ring, the rest of it is just the icing on the cake!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

What would be a fun change, IMO, is if they randomized the order of exercises in all the classes, not just the higher level B classes. It would also be neat if the exercises had possible "options" that could change at the judged discretion. For instance, in heeling, the judge has the option to ask the steward to walk alongside the handler and the handler keeps pace with the steward; or maybe heeling is done through a crowd of people in the ring. It would have to be the same for every exhibitor in the class, but you wouldn't know what your "extra move" would be until you got there that day. So there'd still be a set list of behaviors you'd need to train to proficiency, but you couldn't pattern train as much b/c the order of exercises would always be different.

I agree that people are either going to like obedience or not. There's not much in between with this sport. As for spectating, it seems that people will pause alongside the obedience ring for a few mins and watch, seeming to be thinking, "wow, that looks hard..." vs. the people who stop and watch agility and look to be thinking, "wow, that looks fun!"


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I enjoyed obedience training and classes alot. I despised the trials! The ones we went to people were cutthroat, had attitudes and cheated! It was ridiculous. My attitude was life is too short and I want to have fun with my dog, to waste time with these jerks.

I'm glad you guys haven't had those experiences.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Debles said:


> I enjoyed obedience training and classes alot. I despised the trials! The ones we went to people were cutthroat, had attitudes and cheated! It was ridiculous. My attitude was life is too short and I want to have fun with my dog, to waste time with these jerks.
> 
> I'm glad you guys haven't had those experiences.


That's too bad that you had that experience. I guess I've been lucky to encounter mostly nice, supportive people at trials. 

For me, trialing gives me a tangible goal against which to pace my training. When I compete, I'm just competing against myself to see how close to "perfect" I can get with my training on any given day. The fact that I may score better or worse than another exhibitor is an afterthought.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

It's not really fair to assume that just because people are on their second or third (or thirteenth) dog, that their dog will be capable of doing a lot harder things. It's still an inexperienced baby dog at its first trial.

And Dusty and I have done some obedience training in the backyard just for fun and to give us something to do since we can't do agility every day. It's fun to train, but neither of us enjoy it quite enough to do all the proofing and fine-tuning we'd need to compete. Plus when there are agility and obedience at the same site, the obedience usually seems like a place I don't really want to go as far as the training methods and how the people treat their dogs. I don't see why I would want to spend more money and drive farther to spend a day around people who are still growling commands and yanking on choke chains.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> It's not really fair to assume that just because people are on their second or third (or thirteenth) dog, that their dog will be capable of doing a lot harder things. It's still an inexperienced baby dog at its first trial.quote]
> 
> Exactly having trained more than one dog I know. Even thou I may have more "expirence" because I have trained more than one dog. Each time I walked into the ring it was still the First time for that dog. It a partnership of Dog AND handler expirence. Each dog is different. Make it harder from level to level not A to B.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> It's not really fair to assume that just because people are on their second or third (or thirteenth) dog, that their dog will be capable of doing a lot harder things. It's still an inexperienced baby dog at its first trial.
> 
> And Dusty and I have done some obedience training in the backyard just for fun and to give us something to do since we can't do agility every day. It's fun to train, but neither of us enjoy it quite enough to do all the proofing and fine-tuning we'd need to compete. Plus when there are agility and obedience at the same site, the obedience usually seems like a place I don't really want to go as far as the training methods and how the people treat their dogs. I don't see why I would want to spend more money and drive farther to spend a day around people who are still growling commands and yanking on choke chains.


You do have a point, but choke chains...YUCK!!!:yuck: I hate them...I only use a buckle collar for most of my training, and a micro-prong, for some "Hey! Wake-ups!" A lot of people are trying to stay away from the 'crank and yank'...or 'jerk and pull', methods. Those are from the 80's, although some people still thank that that metod is 'God', while others have moved on. 

Sure, agility looks 'fun', but you give corrections in that game too. I don't know what conditions you've seen Obedience dogs in, but you don't know what Conformation dogs lives are like. Now, those can be worse, but *some* of those show dogs are treated fairly.

To those of you who don't like Obedience, it's tough, but like in a recent post, it's all about the journey. Sure, winning is fun, but the journey is more important. Once you get to where you want, you ponder about how and what steps you had to take to get you there. Winning isn't everything, and some of the top guys out there, that's all their about, and just train, train, and train all day, thinking about the HIT they'll win that weekend.
Building a bond with your dog and giving it a good life, is what it's all about. Yes, the ribbons are nice, but your dog gave forth a good effort in order to get you into the ring. Effort is everything! Whether it'd be training and you putting the time into it, and chasing your dreams, or it would be the dog putting effort in the time you train it.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I don't know ANYONE who gives physical corrections in agility. The closest thing to physical corrections would be that some people hold onto the jump bar as the dog is going over it and sometimes lift it up slightly to remind the dog to keep his feet up, but it's just a little tap if anything, and most people wouldn't do that. Causing your dog pain because he wouldn't weave through some stupid plastic sticks would be considered completely barbaric and way beyond what even most "bad" agility trainers do.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Choke and jerk training has been around a lot longer than just the 80s! The choke chain as a training tool was introduced in early training for military dogs. It was designed so that a handler could restrict the airway of his dog if the dog were to turn on him. The very term "heel" is also from early military dog training. The handler used the heel of his left boot to correct the dog while walking alongside of him.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> The closest thing to physical corrections would be that some people hold onto the jump bar as the dog is going over it and sometimes lift it up slightly to remind the dog to keep his feet up, but it's just a little tap if anything, and most people wouldn't do that.


If you do that to a jumping horse (called rapping/barring), you lose your right to compete for five to seven years! It is banned and considered extremely inhumane and unsportsmanlike.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Wow, that's interesting. Most agility people would agree that it's unsportsmanlike to do to dogs as well, but also it seems like the horse version would be much more unpleasant because of the big wood bars as opposed to 1" PVC. Jump training has gotten much more sophisticated in the past few years and I've only seen that used on a couple athletic, high-drive Border Collies who really couldn't care less about a piece of plastic pipe (not sure they would have felt that way about a wood bar).


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

katieanddusty said:


> Wow, that's interesting. Most agility people would agree that it's unsportsmanlike to do to dogs as well, but also it seems like the horse version would be much more unpleasant because of the big wood bars as opposed to 1" PVC. Jump training has gotten much more sophisticated in the past few years and I've only seen that used on a couple athletic, high-drive Border Collies who really couldn't care less about a piece of plastic pipe (not sure they would have felt that way about a wood bar).


I think that also, a dog is going to be able to be much more agile than a horse - because of the size difference - so a dog can adjust behavior on the fly and in the air easier than a horse. I can picture a horse geting inured that way much easeir than a dog.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

That's true, dogs are probably a lot better at tucking their feet up a little more when they see their crazy handler picking up the bar. I still haven't seen that done for a few years at least (it used to be semi-popular among the big BC people to hold the warm-up jump bar at around 30"). But most of the time the problem was that the dogs were flattening out too much, so they could jump 30" from a standstill at the warm-up jump and then knock five bars in the ring. Now people are getting better at teaching dogs to collect/extend appropriately.

But anyways, back to the somewhat original topic, one of the reasons I'm not as attracted to obedience is the relative popularity of physical corrections and verbally being harsh with your dog. Maybe as training methods develop and more people realize that you can succeed in obedience with truly positive training, the trials will have a more positive environment that will attract more people (people are a lot more likely to think obedience is fun if they see competitors having fun, not bellowing commands and using training collars). But both that and the overall nature of obedience are not things that can be changed by the advisory committee.

That said, I might have considered entering the new Beginner Novice class (probably won't be home by the time they approve it). I like that it allows a little bit of praise and Dusty could do all those exercises with no problem. But it would just be someting to do with my boy, I probably wouldn't be inspired to train the little things he'd need to go to regular Novice. So that probably isn't the kind of interest they're trying to get.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Glad this thread is still going... saw it earlier in the week but things have been a little hectic around here. First I guess I'll stick with the actual thread topic: I can definately see why some may not find obedience trials all that interesting... I'm not sure I even understand why I enjoy it!! I'm not really big on details/nitpicking/precision... whatever you want to call it... but I guess that pretty much explains why I'm a somewhat "sloppy" trainer. I'm working on that... especially now that I'm beginning to introduce Utility exercises (and learning most of them for the first time myself), but I doubt I'll ever go to the level that Steph and other top handlers do... at least in the foreseeable future. I'm hoping there aren't many changes brought about by the board, personally. The standing on either side of the broad jump isn't a big deal to me (I do it anyway for proofing)... and I have no strong opinions on the stays (out of sight or otherwise), although I suppose I hope that people know better than to bring a dog-agressive dog in the ring. If I ever actually saw an incident, I'd probably feel differently. I have to agree with the majority that I don't think B classes should be harder than A classes (outside of what they are now with Utility B being mixed up orders and such... I actually like the idea of adding that to more classes). Mostly that's based on my own experience... technically I've never shown a dog before. In a perfect world Jersey would be my Novice A dog. But I'm part owner of his grandma (a UD) and so I had to sign up for B classes. Plus as others have pointed out, a novice dog is a novice dog... they all come sith some issues their first few times in the ring no matter how many dogs the handler has trained in the past. And I'm in agreement with all of you that I don't want to see Rally type moves added into Obedience. If I wanted to do Rally.... well, I would!! 
Starting a new paragraph hoping it'll keep me from rambling in too many directions... LOL. Like Steph said, I've been lucky enough to find the people at trials to be supportive and generally nice. It probably helps that they all love my dad, but nonetheless, that's been my experience. I first learned to train a dog (16 or so years ago) using those "jerk and pull" methods and I've worked hard at learning better ways of doing things. My training with Jersey hasn't been perfect, but I like to think it's been a happier experience for him than it was for Brandi. If his attitude and spunk is any indication, I like to think I've been more successful than not. BUT I do know what you're talking about Katie. I've seen it too. I hope to see the sport evolve to a point where everyone is using positive methods... hopefully as we "younger" handlers slowly but surely become the majority we can be the force behind that change. 

Okay, just one more thing... Debles, I'm curious as to what you mean by people were "cheating" in the ring? NOT saying I don't believe you by any means... people are capable of crazy things... but at the moment I'm at a loss as to how one would do that? (I promise I'm not looking for inspiration )

Julie and Jersey


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## Goldendogx2 (Sep 2, 2007)

Any sport as "intense" competitors. Whatever sport you engage in, you should be in it for the love of the sport. I enjoy obedience because of the relationship I get to build with my dog, the lessons of life I have learned that can be applied to human relationships (such as bouncing back from disappointment). As one post above said, when spectators watch obedience they are amazed...they "wish" their dog could do that. When I'm out training, people stop to watch and ask questions. It is important that if we want the sport to grow, we promote it. You meet some awesome people along the way and, some people who present you with challenges. As one person I know put it best..."I might not get the title I want, but I probably have the best dog in the neighborhood." THAT is what obedience is about in the end...a companion animal.


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