# Opinions on the clicker?



## Golden123 (Dec 6, 2009)

I dont use the clicker but was wondering, with a dog who has already been trained without a clicker, could a clicker be introduced?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

"clicker training" can be introduced at any point in training, providing you are working on a new behavior, making a known behavior harder, or perfecting a known behavior. 

I utilize clicker training with a variety of species, for competition behaviors, pet training, problem solving, and husbandry behaviors. But I never got to go to the chicken training seminars...sure wish I had!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Chicken camp would be fun.

I think clicker training is just another training tool. I use it for some things--mostly tricks. I don't see it as necessary for basic obedience or for the average dog owner. The thing I don't like about it (even though I click sometimes) is the high rate of food reinforcement and the length of time to get behaviors. Also, for most behaviors as long as you are rewarding in a timely fashion the click can be a bit superfluous. I mean, the great think about the clicker is marking that exact moment but if you click and treat at the same time--why use the clicker? Now, if you can't treat at that moment that is another thing...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Operant conditioning works. You're using it already whether you know it or not... a clicker is just a way of saying, "YES, that! That right there! THAT is what earns you a treat!" in a very precise way. This makes it faster and more effective than most other training methods. My dogs know the reward marker, because I've "loaded" the clicker. They also know a "no reward marker" which for me is a simple, "Oops!" which means, "Nope, that's not going to win the treat, try again!" so to speak. 

When one yanks on a dog to train him, the dog is STILL working for a reward- in this case it's simply the reward of not being yanked. Why not have the dog work for something much more pleasant? If it's not working, then you're not doing it right. This can be because your motivators are too weak, the dog doesn't understand that the clicker is a marker, or because your timing isn't perfected yet. It took me years to GET IT and I am so glad I do now.

Dropping any notion that dogs just want to please just "because" they are dogs and we are human beings is very helpful. Like humans, dogs don't work for free- and why should they?

Oh, and it's never too late to cross-over. I **** near ruined my Whippet when I was a kid who did know any better. I always used food, but I also used corrections. He works so much better now!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> Chicken camp would be fun.
> 
> I think clicker training is just another training tool. I use it for some things--mostly tricks. I don't see it as necessary for basic obedience or for the average dog owner. The thing I don't like about it (even though I click sometimes) is the high rate of food reinforcement and the length of time to get behaviors. Also, for most behaviors as long as you are rewarding in a timely fashion the click can be a bit superfluous. I mean, the great think about the clicker is marking that exact moment but if you click and treat at the same time--why use the clicker? Now, if you can't treat at that moment that is another thing...


This is a common mistake. The moment you click is the moment you get the behavior you want. The treat comes a few seconds later. The clicker is so conditioned to mean FOOD to the dog that he understands which behavior precisely is what you want. Using a marker like that, one can go from a dog that maybe glances at an object to a dog that fetches- by simply clicking for looking at it, then for moving near it, etc. A dog that understands the clicker game will try all kinds of things. It's really cool and if you are doing it correctly it works really fast. I can get reliable responses out of a seven year old never previously trained Borzoi with just five minutes of clicker training, now that he knows how to play my game. I make it very worth his time to play my game, too. After a few days of just loading the clicker (randomly clicking and treating through the day), we were ready to begin. I actually rarely speak when I clicker train. I don't add cues/commands until much later in the game. Once he was fully loaded on the clicker, it only took me about 30 minutes total (broken into three sessions) to teach sit, down, speak, touch (my hand), and a basic stay while I walk around him in a tight circle. 

I used to have the exact same thought as you. I was nearly 30 years old before I truly got it, after having trained dogs since I was a grade school child. Not sure what made it suddenly "click" in my brain (bad pun intended) but it finally did! And wow am I having fun!


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

Timing is everything


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## Phiddler (Sep 1, 2008)

Count me in as a vote FOR the clicker and positive training. Once you get the hang of it, it is so much fun for you AND the dog and it is very motivating. Yes, it makes training fast and precise. The less you do corrections, the more likely your subject will be willing to try things and be creative. It is important to think of positive ways to do things you want instead of focusing on things you don't want. Working towards something positive is MUCH MORE motivating and pleasant than avoiding something you don't want. When my dog hears the clicker coming out of my pocket, he comes over and sits and starts wagging his tail, wondering what he can do to keep the "game" going. 

Clicker training, done properly, encourages an eager, outgoing, confident, happy dog.

Timing is everything, and, as we say in the violin business, "Practice."


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I love clicker training....it's so much faster for me to click and then say "GOOD!!!!" than it is to simply say "GOOD!!!!" and timing is critical, crucial. The thing is, I don't always treat. Initially, yes, but I then switch to intermittent reinforcement.
Bear with me, please...I found this on YouTube one night and I love it because this is about as perfect as I have ever seen, I've seen professionals be less effective than this young girl.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The science behind clicker training is proven, and it teaches the dog to be a creative joyful learner. My golden Tally learned his CD/Rally Excellent without even one collar correction bc the clicker is so effective in marking behaviors for him. He's internally motivated to hear the "click" noise, and he knows to offer behaviors until he gets to the click. I use the clicker to teach him new things, and then fade it out once we have it down. I was able to teach him the "back" command over night with the clicker well enough to get a perfect score in the Rally Excellent ring. Many people seem scornful of doing formal obedience with positive only training, but so far it is working for my young dogs.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

The thing I like about clicker training is exactly what you said above, the dog offers up behaviours to see your response. It's thinking, using its mind, problem solving, reasoning. That's what's beautiful about it, in my opinion. Especially since we've gone into capturing behaviours as opposed to enforcing them. The result is a dog that is more willing to team up, whose mind is stimulated, and who because of it is less likely to get himself into trouble.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> The science behind clicker training is proven, and it teaches the dog to be a creative joyful learner. My golden Tally learned his CD/Rally Excellent without even one collar correction bc the clicker is so effective in marking behaviors for him. He's internally motivated to hear the "click" noise, and he knows to offer behaviors until he gets to the click. I use the clicker to teach him new things, and then fade it out once we have it down. I was able to teach him the "back" command over night with the clicker well enough to get a perfect score in the Rally Excellent ring. Many people seem scornful of doing formal obedience with positive only training, but so far it is working for my young dogs.


I have worked with many trainers through the years and the clicker, to date, is the fastest way to teach a dog how to be right and earn (yes earn since I don;t think dogs should work for free, nor do I believe they inherently 'want to please' - they do what works) re-inforcement.

I have also been training long enough to know the scorn Ljiilly28 is speaking of. For obedience, 15-20 years ago it was training with any motivation other than collar corrections, today it is to clicker trained dogs.

In field, although I haven't been doing it as long, it was the e-collar replacing the whip, sling shot etc and now to positively trained dogs - what you expect the dog to pick up a bird without an ear-pinch? Well yes, actually I do  

However, I would also like to point out that the clicker is a tool and you can very easily train a dog to do something other than what you intended or to train superstitous behaviours, so while it causes no real harm you do need yo have your timimg correct to train successfully.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> This is a common mistake. The moment you click is the moment you get the behavior you want. The treat comes a few seconds later. The clicker is so conditioned to mean FOOD to the dog that he understands which behavior precisely is what you want.


No, if food comes immediately after why do you 'need' the click? It would be an interesting experiment but I bet you could train a dog using all the same things but not using the click--as long as the food wasn't delivered too long after the behavior. Just toss food when the behavior occurs and remain quiet.

And I really don't think clicker training is always faster. It depends. I can teach my dog to sit faster with a lure than I can wait for the behavior to happen on its own and click. And that is if you are using to purely shape--i.e. no luring, talking, etc just letting the dog figure it out. 

Don't get me wrong, I think clicker training is great sometimes but there are things I don't like about it. I don't like the often passive involvement of the handler and the high rate of food involved. I like to train my dog so that as much as possible I am a the reward for the dog--me petting, praising, wrestling with her. I do like that it causes dogs to think and it can be great when I can't reward immediately for certain behaviors (i.e. going over a jump).


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Depending on trainer skill, moving the food can be just as effective for some behaviors. But the thing is, the movement of the 'treat hand' becomes a marker and in the long run there are many areas where that might get a handler into trouble. There are some very well respected trainers who utilize this, and in their work with exotics it's not much of a problem. 

Clicker training is for teaching new behaviors, making something harder, or improving the precision of a behavior...and if any of that is needed in a scenario where you can't reinforce.... the handler has probably put the dog in a setting he's not ready for.


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## Golden River of Dreams (Feb 25, 2010)

I think the clicker is a great tool, and love when pet dog trainers try it out, especially inexperienced dog trainers, because it forces people to focus on the positives (what your dog did right) which is definitely a good thing. 

I personally don't use it that often, but I do use a verbal yes/ praise a lot. I prefer interactive training. I like to use movement, play, and generally interact with my puppy so that both River and I are enjoying training. 

For some things I do use the clicker. I have tried the box game. I've used it in an occasional trick run through or sometimes when we are just practicing attention. (River sitting in heel looking at me, etc.) River does offer behaviors just like clicker trained dogs, but in most cases I don't want him to offer random behaviors I want to show him what I want or at least give him a hint, and because he has such a versatile back ground of tricks and activities he learns things supper fast because he has learned how to learn, and anticipate what it is I am going to ask for. 

For example: Just last night I was going to tell River to bow, someone asked me a question so I turned to answer, and when I turned back I found out River was doing what I was going to ask him. I then realized I gave him a suttle cue even without meaning to (I had dropped my hand slightly and was leaning forward slightly.
I also set up an agility course for River. By the end of his first agility lesson he was already running trough a course of five obstacles, He has been doing jumps for obedience, tunnel was easy enough because he knows the go through command, weaves were easy because he had learned directional commands, he does great with the pause table because he knows jump on and wait, and the small teeter was new but he has worked on walking on things and has been introduced to things that wobble. 

Personally, I think that the best training methods are where the dog and handler are having a blast, and the dog is learning and succeeding. For some that might be the clicker method, for others it might not be.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> No, if food comes immediately after why do you 'need' the click? It would be an interesting experiment but I bet you could train a dog using all the same things but not using the click--as long as the food wasn't delivered too long after the behavior. Just toss food when the behavior occurs and remain quiet.


This is true in many cases - that properly timed, "chucking food," as Bob Bailey would say, is all that's needed. The Brelands and Baileys trained thousands of species to perform complex behavior chains and according to Bailey, they mostly just chucked food.

BUT -- (and as he points out) your timing (and aim!) has to be spot-on, because you'll get what you reinforce -- which isn't exactly always what you want!

In cases where you have to delay the reinforcer, the marker signal is critical. You can't lob a mackerel into your dolphin's pie-hole at the pinnacle of his jump... so you bridge the behavior and a reinforcer comes once he lands and swims back to you. Happens this way in dog training, too. I can bridge the highest point of the jump in my flip finish, but feed once he lands and is in position. Or, because I have lousy aim and can't chuck food all the way across the ring, I can bridge the turn/sit on a go out and then walk up and feed.

I rarely free-shape, but I often lure to jump-start a behavior and then click. With both my dogs, behaviors I've clicked for are some of the strongest things they know, even though I no longer click for them b/c they're fluent behaviors. Science has shown that the click registers deeper in the brain (and in a slightly different place) than a verbal marker. 

It's fun stuff!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I guess this goes back to another recent clicker thread and I have been thinking about it a lot. The definition of clicker training is very variable depending on who is talking. Is clicker training the same thing as training with a clicker? I use to kinda think so, but that other thread has left me thinking a lot.

If you tell your dog 'no' for an incorrect behavior are you clicker training or training with a clicker? Some will say adding that negative negates it being clicker training. If you use a lure are clicker training or training with a clicker? Again, I think some view clicker training as purely shaping and once you add the lure you aren't really clicker training--you're doing a combo/hybrid.

Personally, I have in the past and still tend to think of clicker training as using a marker/bridge that indicates a positive primary reinforcer is coming.

Of course, in the end, for me, I use what works and gets the results I want. I try not to get too hung up about lingo.

EDIT: Since KP brought clicker training to the public and dog training, I will go with how she defines it on her website. This is along the lines of how I have viewed clicker training--that is, using a marker (whether it is yes, click, whistle, etc) paired with a positive to increase the desired behavior.



> "Clicker training" is an animal training method based on behavioral psychology that relies on marking desirable behavior and rewarding it.
> 
> Desirable behavior is usually marked by using a "clicker," a mechanical device that makes a short, distinct "click" sound which tells the animal exactly when they're doing the right thing. This clear form of communication, combined with positive reinforcement, is an effective, safe, and humane way to teach any animal any behavior that it is physically and mentally capable of doing.


http://www.clickertraining.com/what_is_clicker_training


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Timing is everything....  

I did clicker train for a while but then realized that my saying "YES!" was faster than clicking and treating and holding onto the dog at the same time. Also, my dog responds more to the sound of my voice, I think because I started training that way before we got to puppy class and our teacher started us with the clicker. It is the same science otherwise, voice or click - and yes, I do think it works.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

You cannot give your dog a treat while he's sailing over a jump or doing a retrieve. So you mark the behavior with a click or a marker word or even a flicker of light for deaf dogs, and the dog has already been conditioned to know means food.

BTW, you must ALWAYS reward every time you click... click ALWAYS means treat. But you don't have to click ever response, nor should you, except in the early stages of a new behavior.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I think that you use the method that works for the dog and the situation. 

For close work (exclusive of livestock) I always use the clicker/treat in the beginning. I start to move away from the treat every time as the penny drops and let the "GOOD!!!" become the reward, once the behaviour is captured I move away from the clicker and treat very seldom, but really rev up the "GOOD!!!!" and really make a party of it.

That's worked with my guys.....although it's possibly not textbook, classic.

For work that involved livestock, the only tools are the voice together/whistle, the wand as an extension of my arm when training flanks, body position, and once everything is set it all becomes strictly whistle for outwork and voice for penning or shedding. Sheep resent whistles.

For agility, initial clicker/treat, then clicker/intermittent treat/voice, then exclusive voice. I've often wondered about introducing whistles....


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> I've often wondered about introducing whistles....


I know a n umber of people who use a whistle as a marker with dogs.... as my dogs have the whistle for cues I don't have a whistle-maker. I've thought about getting a second, different-sound whistle to use that way but I don't know how that would impact the associations with the whistle cues that are so strong.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Oh, I was thinking of whistles for directions in agility - much as a particular flank has a particular whistle rather than whistles as markers. I'd probably continue to use the clicker at the initial training.

My concern, like yours, is that a whistle has a very strong, unique association with a particular command in herding - I wonder, since I'm musically challenged, whether I can come up with enough of a difference in pitch to use in agility and not confuse a dog. I can just see myself whistling for seesaw and coming with with the away to me whistle and have Dru stop dead in his tracks and look at me like - "are ya daffed?!?!"

It would be so much easier, now that we've moved away from herding, to just use a whistle for "weave" or A-frame, or whatever...each element of the course. I know a long blast would just be a lay down/table, that wouldn't change....


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

While it wouldn't be permitted in competition, it could be quite fabulous for demonstration/public events, like triebball (in the US at least).


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

aaaawww, that's too bad! I think it would be faster! No wonder it's not prevalent, it's not legal.:doh:


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I prefer "yessss" for a couple of reasons. One, I'm not real coordinated with leash/clicker/treat all at once. Two, I can always bring my "yesssss" in the show ring with me. Three, when the people on both sides of me in training are using clickers it's downright annoying because the dogs can't figure out who is being clicked and for what. 
Same method, just marker word instead of clicking.
I am a mostly positive trainer. Less so in field work, however, because I'm seeing total boneheaded defiance when his instincts take over. Never saw it before we encountered birds, especially live ones. 
Therefore, I *suspect* when you encounter very strong instinctual behaviors your clicker training will go flying out the window real fast. I'm open to discussion on it, though.
I can see me with Tito, with a bitch in full standing heat, standing there clicking away.....he wouldn't even HEAR it over his teeth chattering and his whining.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

To me it's not about never using corrections. It's about understanding learning theory.

Of course you would not click Tito for standing there ignoring you  That's not a behavior worth reinforcing.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I am a mostly positive trainer. Less so in field work, however, because I'm seeing total boneheaded defiance when his instincts take over. Never saw it before we encountered birds, especially live ones.
> Therefore, I *suspect* when you encounter very strong instinctual behaviors your clicker training will go flying out the window real fast. I'm open to discussion on it, though.
> I can see me with Tito, with a bitch in full standing heat, standing there clicking away.....he wouldn't even HEAR it over his teeth chattering and his whining.


I'm with you on this one. I like to teach teach teach with rewards and positives, but there comes a time in training for certain things that I will enforce. I don't worry about enforcing silly tricks like a bow, but you better believe my dog better come when called, sit when told, etc. I have also noticed when you get out in the field things change A LOT. Toys, treats, whatever don't mean a whole lot of nothing when the greater reward is out in the field. My dog will prance around merrily with rapt attention at heel when working at the park with hidden food--but when in the field food dangled in front of her face is a distraction and she'll just as soon spit it out as she will work to get it. :no:


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

When we've been around bitches in heat.... all attention was on me.... "I KNOW you have access to what I want! I will WORK for that!" I was very surprised at his response, but we've done a lot of "work for access to things in the environment" training, it was a framework he was familiar with. 

Again.... using a verbal marker is very helpful, but....if you are using it in the ring, it's not being followed by a primary reinforcer and you're weakening the value. 

I'm a novice with field work so that might discredit whatever I say.... it IS hard when you're working with motor patterns that may be very reinforcing chemically. Lessons would have to be planned to utilize those scenarios and to prevent undesirable behaviors from being reinforced... as so few people are exploring that area, it's especially hard for novices to understand what the rules are, what's normally done, the function of the exercises/protocols typically used, what parts are very useful/needed and what are superstitious or necessarily due to protocols used later, etc...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I prefer "yessss" for a couple of reasons. *One, I'm not real coordinated with leash/clicker/treat all at once.* Two, I can always bring my "yesssss" in the show ring with me. Three, when the people on both sides of me in training are using clickers it's downright annoying because the dogs can't figure out who is being clicked and for what.


Oh my goodness - same here. 

I also found it works better at home than at class, if you use it. At class, your voice works better because your dog knows your voice, whereas most clickers sound the same. 

- Though I should point out, when we took the puppy and obedience classes with a clicker-geared instructor, he did point out that the 'clicker' could be anything. It has to be a consistent and well-timed reaction on your part every single time the dog does something good. The reason why some people prefer the clicker or another mechanical device is because it is the same individual sound every single time.

And it is a pretty cool thing - I've watched videos with trainers using clickers and other devices (tapping a stick on bars, for example) while training different animals from dolphins to monkeys. 

I do think it works well with your voice, but you have to (1) use the same tone every time and (2) use a special 'cue' word you don't use other times in the training. <- "YES" is the word I picked out. I'd use "Good", except my dog is highly likely to be told he's a good dog, even when he's not doing anything. 

ETA - 

Training around females in heat - I think this depends on whether you've bred your dog or not? I've gone to class where there are females in heat. My dog ignored them, although he's intact.

Training around rabbits or other game - not a chance he would hear my voice or the clicker - or remember his training.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> I am a mostly positive trainer. Less so in field work, however, because I'm seeing total boneheaded defiance when his instincts take over. Never saw it before we encountered birds, especially live ones.
> Therefore, I *suspect* when you encounter very strong instinctual behaviors your clicker training will go flying out the window real fast. I'm open to discussion on it, though.
> I can see me with Tito, with a bitch in full standing heat, standing there clicking away.....he wouldn't even HEAR it over his teeth chattering and his whining.


This is very true. Thisis the reason that I mentioned that I use the clicker, *exclusiv*e of livestock.

When there is livestock involved, not even a female in season will deter Dru and Billy from working the livestock. They will turn into complete idiots when the whole thing is over, but I have seen brace teams working livestock and when off the field the female is instantly taken away...you'd never know to look at them working.
This is the reason that I don't believe training is either all this or all that - it must be flexible to situations and individuals. If all I have as a tool is a clicker when my dog is head to head with a determined calf, then my dog is in trouble. Ditto for snake avoidance classes. There are times when a negative reinforcer is necessary for the sake and safety of the dog. I'd be a fool to try to resort to clicker training and positive reinforcement in the face of a calf, a ram, or a rattlesnake.

What I've learned is that moderation in approach and flexibility of method is what creates a thinking dog rather than a mechanical one that cannot reason to get himself out of a pickle, either where there is a bird that must be got in a blind retrieve or a dog with a determined ram that does not want to go into a pen. At that point, we're only humans, they're reacting to sheer Darwinian principles!!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> I prefer "yessss" for a couple of reasons. One, I'm not real coordinated with leash/clicker/treat all at once. Two, I can always bring my "yesssss" in the show ring with me. Three, when the people on both sides of me in training are using clickers it's downright annoying because the dogs can't figure out who is being clicked and for what.
> Same method, just marker word instead of clicking.
> I am a mostly positive trainer. Less so in field work, however, because I'm seeing total boneheaded defiance when his instincts take over. Never saw it before we encountered birds, especially live ones.
> Therefore, I *suspect* when you encounter very strong instinctual behaviors your clicker training will go flying out the window real fast. I'm open to discussion on it, though.
> I can see me with Tito, with a bitch in full standing heat, standing there clicking away.....he wouldn't even HEAR it over his teeth chattering and his whining.


It's just an issue of the dog being over threshold in THAT context. You could still use a +R program, you'd just have to progress VERY slowly. You couldn't roll up the field and bust out a bird. With Quiz, for example, the fist thing I'd have to work on is teaching focus in the presence of gunfire b/c now he KNOWS that = BIRD. I'd have a hard time teaching that focus in the middle of the field. I'd have to start far enough away that he heard it, but wasn't a total bonehead about it yet. IMO, totally do-able, but would take a long time. (The "would take a long time" part is, again, IMO, why people turn to +P in "instinct" sports.)



> Two, I can always bring my "yesssss" in the show ring with me.


Remember though, that by the time you're in the ring, you should no longer need the precise marker. The marker signal (be it voice, clicker, pen light, whistle) is used during teaching. Once the dog is fluent in the behavior, it's no longer needed. That's one of the major misconceptions of the clicker. People say, 'I don't want to always carry a clicker with me." You don't have to!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I thought this was very well thought out and very well worded. I especially like the parts that I put in italics. Thanks for the post.



Lilliam said:


> This is very true. Thisis the reason that I mentioned that I use the clicker, *exclusiv*e of livestock.
> 
> When there is livestock involved, not even a female in season will deter Dru and Billy from working the livestock. They will turn into complete idiots when the whole thing is over, but I have seen brace teams working livestock and when off the field the female is instantly taken away...you'd never know to look at them working.
> _This is the reason that I don't believe training is either all this or all that - it must be flexible to situations and individuals._ If all I have as a tool is a clicker when my dog is head to head with a determined calf, then my dog is in trouble. Ditto for snake avoidance classes. There are times when a negative reinforcer is necessary for the sake and safety of the dog. I'd be a fool to try to resort to clicker training and positive reinforcement in the face of a calf, a ram, or a rattlesnake.
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm too lazy to try to progess that slowly thru the strongly instinctual situations like a bitch in full standing heat, or a live, wounded bird in the field. I admit it. Could it be done? Maybe. I say maybe because at some point instinct becomes so strong that it's overwhelming. Do I look down on people who choose to do it that way? HECK NO. 
But when Tito encounters a bitch in standing heat (I make that distinction because someone else commented that their boy wasn't all that interested, I've found the same with Tito, at certain parts of the heat cycle he's not all that impressed either but at other times, WOW) I know I have (non-positive) training to fall back on to keep him from raping her while her owner and I stand and talk.
I find the different training methods interesting and I love hearing people talk about their training methods and philosophies.






FlyingQuizini said:


> It's just an issue of the dog being over threshold in THAT context. You could still use a +R program, you'd just have to progress VERY slowly. You couldn't roll up the field and bust out a bird. With Quiz, for example, the fist thing I'd have to work on is teaching focus in the presence of gunfire b/c now he KNOWS that = BIRD. I'd have a hard time teaching that focus in the middle of the field. I'd have to start far enough away that he heard it, but wasn't a total bonehead about it yet. IMO, totally do-able, but would take a long time. (The "would take a long time" part is, again, IMO, why people turn to +P in "instinct" sports.)
> 
> 
> 
> Remember though, that by the time you're in the ring, you should no longer need the precise marker. The marker signal (be it voice, clicker, pen light, whistle) is used during teaching. Once the dog is fluent in the behavior, it's no longer needed. That's one of the major misconceptions of the clicker. People say, 'I don't want to always carry a clicker with me." You don't have to!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

this is a serious question and is not meant to be sarcastic (they need a "sarcasm font" on computers so people don't take things wrong), how would you clicker train a dog to stop going down on the out of sight sit? 
Just curious how you would shape the correct behavior for an out of sight exercise.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> this is a serious question and is not meant to be sarcastic (they need a "sarcasm font" on computers so people don't take things wrong), how would you clicker train a dog to stop going down on the out of sight sit?
> Just curious how you would shape the correct behavior for an out of sight exercise.


Clicker training is for rewarding correct behavior--not correcting wrong behavior. The only prevention you get is by strong association. I understand the positive crew philosophy is that if a behavior falls apart (i.e. the dog lays down on OOS stay) it is because you as a trainer did not make the behavior strong enough. If you are a clicker trainer and you clicker train a retrieve (and I am meaning from basics, sniff dumbbell click--to pick up from the ground click) and the dog starts occasionally refusing to get the dumbbell--again, your fault as a trainer for not making the behavior strong enough--for adding distractions too quickly, etc.

But of course, you can always clicker train to teach a behavior, and later instill corrections to enforce--depending on your philosophy but the correction part would not be a part of CT.

I suppose with OOS stays you would use a clicker much like you would use positive reinforcement without one. If you are disinclined to use any sort of correction (such as putting a dog back in a sit that lays down) you would break it into smaller time pieces. Click-treat for staying for 1 sec when you walk out of sight, then click-treat for 5 sec, then maybe 15 sec...until you get up to the 3-5 minutes.

I am trying to adapt my understanding of clicker training vs. training with a clicker. There are a lot of ideas out there and not sure if I should go with one source. But--one of the articles on KP's site says if you correct while using the clicker you are not CT, so, to go along with OOS analogy if the dog breaks I guess you would do nothing, but start over and work incrementally up to that time length or distraction again.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I probably wouldn't use a clicker for training an OOS stay, with one exception, it's only use in stay training for me is distractions. During duration stays, you don't have a specific behavior to mark, so there is nothing really all that appropriate to click for. 

If this was a dog previously trained to respond correctly and doing well, my plan would involve increasing distractions to a ridiculous level with me present, doing extended duration with me present, and only doing out of sight stays IF I would know if the dog moved (....computer/camera set up, or a helper, or dog on a tile floor or in a part of the house where I can see via windows.....). If I have a helper, I would have the helper periodically feed. My position of the reinforcer would be higher up (nose pointing up) to help -my- dog think sitting thoughts. 

I would also do a health check and probably some increased conditioning activities..... some of the dogs dropping on sits and/or rolling on downs (that aren't stays) just don't have the appropriate muscle tone for maintaining the position for very long.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I will admit it, I really don't care for all that "creativity" that a dog learns through shaping. It kind of drives me crazy when my dogs start offering up different behaviors trying to figure out what I want. I much prefer to show the dog what I want up front. I know a lot of people love to see the wheels turning as a dog offers all these unique behaviors and solves the puzzle, but it's not for me.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Or, because I have lousy aim and can't chuck food all the way across the ring, I can bridge the turn/sit on a go out and then walk up and feed.


You gotta get treats that roll!! 3 Dogs Bakery actually makes a treat that is perfect for this!

I haven't used those in a couple of years, I should order some.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I will admit it, I really don't care for all that "creativity" that a dog learns through shaping. It kind of drives me crazy when my dogs start offering up different behaviors trying to figure out what I want.



That really bothers me too... some of the dogs are happy and enjoying themselves but many are frantic and anxious... Not good! 

Most of the "offering behaviors" is not about creativity or shaping, most of it is about poor stimulus control.... but THAT is another topic itself!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

One does not need a clicker, a marker word, or treats once the behavior has been reinforced enough to become reliable.


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