# e-colllar training



## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

You will get lots of varying opinions on e-collar training. It really depends on what the dog is being trained for. Field and Hunt are very regimented strict learned behaviors. I hope you get some good information based on those that actually train their dogs for field with the use of an e-collar. They are the ONLY persons qualified to give you the answers to the questions you have. You will surely see this thread grow to 16 pages of biased opinions to the negatives of e-collars from lots of folks who don't use them or have never trained a dog with one with a qualified trainer. Please try to stay objective to only those who can offer you feedback based on personal experience with THEIR DOG. Good luck.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have only e-collar trained one dog, and I would not be without it. I believe it has saved his life, or at least kept him from getting lost, on more than one occasion. 
If you have a dog with a very high prey drive and a lot of bird instinct, they can be very hard to call back if they take off after a bird unless you can get their attention with an e-collar. I call it my "safety net".
My dog has a very happy attitude, and I have seen absolutely no negative effects from the e-collar.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have chosen not to use Force Fetch and eCollar on my Faelan. Talking with my trainers and other successful competitors who have watched and worked with Faelan, to reach Master Hunter level he may need the eCollar, for Senior Hunter level no, he does not.

That being said, my training could possibly have been sped up by use of force; I chose instead to reprioritize obedience and agility ahead of field training since these are my real interests and involve more than 1 of my dogs. Some would (and do) say my Faelan's failed tests were the result of this lack of force, I believe he needs training more than once or twice a week.

It is a decision you, and only you can make. I strongly agree that it can definitely save your dogs life if they have a strong prey drive - I successfully used an eCollar on my King for this reason.

I would close by saying, if you choose to use an eCollar, look around until you find a trainer who has motivated and happy dogs who trains with a collar - you can see videos on this site of very motivated and happy retrievers who are trained with the collar  I train with many dogs who are happy and enthusiastic retrievers and wear the collar.

Remember, the eCollar is a tool. Used wisely, after training has occurred it should not result in dogs who are afraid. Used incorrectly or in anger, yes problems can occur.

Edit to add: And if you chose not to use force, be prepared for negativity to flow your way but stick to your choices whichever way you decide. And also, please remember that your next dog may have you choosing differently - it truly is not a one size fits all answer.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Okay this is just my opinion but here goes. 
If a dog is tail tucked and head down (avoidance) then the dog is not being taught properly. Now I know that is a VERY BROAD statement but from your description "*but I noticed all their dogs are tense and nervous" *I would say that was the case here. Honestly, if it is done properly that does not need to occur.
I have trained 4 dogs through FF and other than maybe the first 5 minutes that is a behavior I have never experienced with any of my girls. One of my favorite DVDs for this Is Even Graham's "Smart Fetch" DVD.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not a huge fan of e-collar training, and I choose not to use one on my dogs, but I think what you're seeing is either a result of poor training (not the collar itself) or a misreading of body language.

When a driven dog is totally focused, his head and tail can sometimes be pretty low, and many dogs quiver. It's not necessarily a sign of too much force in training. My dogs are trained (not for field, but well-trained) with very little in the way of aversives, and they get a funny partial crouch before they're released, and they frequently quiver.

I too have seen dogs with the sad, beaten look, and you don't need an e-collar to produce it, and the e-collar doesn't produce it when used properly. So if you're right about the body language, I still don't think the e-collar is at fault. A bad trainer was. An e-collar in the hands of a cruel, stupid, or uneducated person is a terrible thing, but so is a leash.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

I use an e collar on my Golden and it doesn't phase him one bit when the collar is put on his neck. Now I followed the correct instructions on how to use the ecollar and I don't abuse it but use it as a very useful tool. Depending on how "hard" your dog is, there is probably no need to up the zap very much past the number where the dog can feel a sensation. If you could borrow someone's ecollar and transmitter then try it on your hand and up the number after each zap. You can see that the lower number will not hurt your dog at all. If you go the ecollar route then only go to someone who trains in a humane way and doesn't try to get your dog to yelp each time it is hit with a shock that is not the correct way. Tritronics is probably the best out there and is highly recommended. 
My ecollars have allowed my dogs to run on the beach and swim at the lake with no reason to be tethered to me. The dogs have a blast and I have had more people come up to me and say how well behaved they are. And that is just wearing the collars with nothing turned on.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

All I can say is I have to be careful with mine...she's constantly yanking her collar out of its charger and bringing it to me because she wants to go play. Whenever I get the thing out I have a very excited and hopeful doggy!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The most recent Golden Retriever News had an interview with one of the grand ladies of goldens. She said an interesting thing about e collars- that we should reckon with the large number of goldens who have been ruined by them even while admitting they can work beautifully as a tool in exact and professional hands. I admire Sunrise, and my training partner Judy who has an MH with no force- I really think it is more of an accomplishment that way. Not everyone agrees.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

tuckers mom said:


> *i hope you get some good information based on those that actually train their dogs for field with the use of an e-collar. They are the only persons qualified to give you the answers to the questions you have. You will surely see this thread grow to 16 pages of biased opinions to the negatives of e-collars from lots of folks who don't use them or have never trained a dog with one with a qualified trainer. *


woohoo!!! Thank you


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I echo Tippy's comments on possibly mis-reading the dog's body language as being fearful rather than just intense. It can look very similar especially with some of the very highly driven field dogs. 
If the dog really is fearful during training that is the fault of the TRAINER not the training TOOL.



> Do you think the tension and nervousness are the unavoidable components of the forced training?


*NO*


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

While I wouldn't use an e-collar myself, I do think that they do have their place in the training world. I've seen quite a few dogs that were trained with them (my grandfather used to train German Shorthaired Pointers for hunting) and none of them had that reaction to the collar. I would think that if they're physically cowering, they weren't conditioned to the collar correctly.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Discoverer said:


> Last weekend I went with my puppy to the field and hunt workshop, where instructors used their well trained dogs to demonstrate various training techniques including forced training. They dogs performed really amazing, but I noticed all their dogs are tense and nervous - heads down, often tail between legs and shaking during execution. They guy said the dogs were excited, but it doesn't seems this way. I have seen a couple other force training demonstrations and noticed the same thing - dog's shaking and nervousness.
> My dog is 6 1/2 months old. I haven't tried any forced methods and always use positive reinforcement, but heard many times that if I want to progress with training I will need to use e-collar, whipping stick, ear pinch, etc. I wouldn't feel very good if my puppy will change his happy attitude about training and be shaking and constantly expecting the e-shock during his field training.
> Do you think the tension and nervousness are the unavoidable components of the forced training?
> I just want to hear your thoughts and comments on this matter.


If you don't fell 100% comfortable with the idea of using an E-collar on your dog, then by all means don't use one, especially for a hobby like field training your dog. People are demonstrating that a dog can be trained to hunt and to be successful in Hunt Tests without the use of a FF or E-collar. It will be harder, possibly just because most field techniques have been developed with E-collars and non-aversive methods are just nudging their way into the field world, or maybe aversive methods just work faster, but it can be done.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Discoverer said:


> My dog is 6 1/2 months old. I haven't tried any forced methods and always use positive reinforcement, but heard many times that if I want to progress with training I will need to use e-collar, *whipping stick, ear pinch,* etc. I wouldn't feel very good if my puppy will change his happy attitude about training and be shaking and constantly expecting the e-shock during his field training.
> Do you think the tension and nervousness are the unavoidable components of the forced training?


This reminded me of something I read while reading up on how other people teach various advanced obedience things like go-outs.

There was a woman who said she tried teaching the go-out by putting a prong collar on the dog to yank at from the front and she had a riding crop to whip the dog behind. This was to force her dog to go DIRECTLY across the floor without stopping to sniff or look back. 

Sick. 

I believe I'd be more likely to put a zap collar on my dog than I'd be to twist my dog's ears or beat him with a whip. And that is highly unlikely. 

That does not mean I have anything to say about people who do train with zap collar. Obviously, if it keeps their dogs under control out in the field - it's worth it. I probably wouldn't do it (I don't even like electric fencing, guys), but I would not criticize people who do. 

I'm sure it would just come off like those people who are convinced that using a prong or choke chain on a dog is cruelty extreme. This when I know my dog gets all excited when he hears the jingle of his choke chain and will come running to poke his nose through to urge me to put it on him faster. <- It's a tool, and it comes down to how it's used.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuckers Mom said:


> I hope you get some good information based on those that actually train their dogs for field with the use of an e-collar. They are the ONLY persons qualified to give you the answers to the questions you have. You will surely see this thread grow to 16 pages of biased opinions to the negatives of e-collars from lots of folks who don't use them or have never trained a dog with one with a qualified trainer. Please try to stay objective to only those who can offer you feedback based on personal experience with THEIR DOG. Good luck.


If you only listen to people who use e-collars, you'll only hear positives of e-collars. Listen to _all_ viewpoints. Experience is only one kind of knowledge. It deserves lots of weight, but it's not the only way to learn something.

For example, I know that hard pops on a prong are a bad idea. I don't have to do it myself to hold that opinion and to defend it. There are people out there who train that way, and if I only listen to them, where does that leave me?


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

Tippy, 
With all due respect, I say that from the HUGE thread of a few weeks ago that became a huge pee'ing contest over the rights and wrongs based on ethical and moral reasonings about beliefs in that type of training. Things get so emotionally charged over this subject, and I merely was trying to provide our OP some advice on how to accept the information given. e-collar training for the purpose of hunt and field is what our person was referring to, not whether it's a right or wrong thing. That's all. No emotions, just facts about that type of field training. that is what information is important in this case.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Discoverer

Did you talk to anyone else to see if they felt the way that you do about what the dogs were showing behavior wise? If others felt that they saw the same thing, maybe you are not misreading body language and something is very wrong. Just like any tool, the e collar can be misused. In that case, the fault is with the trainer, not the collar. FWIW, in my own training group, e collar misuse is common among those that use one.

I use a heeling stick (whipping stick) and I certainly don't beat my dog with it although I'm sure that it is done. Who were these people that were demonstrating?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuckers Mom said:


> Tippy,
> With all due respect, I say that from the HUGE thread of a few weeks ago that became a huge pee'ing contest over the rights and wrongs based on ethical and moral reasonings about beliefs in that type of training. Things get so emotionally charged over this subject, and I merely was trying to provide our OP some advice on how to accept the information given. e-collar training for the purpose of hunt and field is what our person was referring to, not whether it's a right or wrong thing. That's all. No emotions, just facts about that type of field training. that is what information is important in this case.


Absolutely. I agree that _some_ anti-e-collar folks appeal to emotion, exaggerate, and use charged, unhelpful terms like "abusive." I prefer to debate the relative merits of different training styles and avoid the charged terms for all but the most extreme fringes of training.

And I agree that experience is a really powerful, persuasive source of information. Just not that it's the only valid voice in this conversation.

The OP's actual question was "Do you think the tension and nervousness are the unavoidable components of the forced training?" That's not just "e-collar training for the purpose of hunt and field." That's absolutely a question of right and wrong. If a training method very frequently led to a miserable but effective dog, that's definitely a reason to question the ethics of that method.

And don't just blame the anti e-collar folks for what happens in the long threads. For every dramatic, exaggerated post that calls e-collars abusive, there's an arrogant pro e-collar post with a "our way is the only good way" attitude.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

You have already gotten a lot of good advise. I also encourage you to use the search function for "e-collar." There have been quite a few very long discussions. 

To answer a few of your questions in my own way... Dogs do sometimes quiver when they are on the line, getting ready to run. They are that excited. It's like Christmas to them. However, some trainers may APPLY the e-collar, and pressure in general, in an incorrect way. This is when you get the "tail between the legs, worried constantly" look. Pressure, when applied fairly, does not negatively affect a dog's attitude. If a dog is correctly conditioned to the collar, they will know exactly what causes a correction to be made. They will not be worried that the "hand of god" will just come down at any moment to "get them." Correct training teaches them what causes corrections to come, how to avoid these corrections, and how to turn them off if they do happen. 

The other weekend, I was training with a professional field trainer. I have collar trained and force fetched my dog, but I consider myself a positive trainer. After the trainer had watched me for a while with my dog, she smiled and said "you are a positive trainer, aren't you?" It's something that just radiates from the way I interact with my dog, the way I talk to him. But the best part is, the trainer doesn't care. She just wants to help me take my dog as far as I can. If you really want to do hunt training with your dog, you need to find a trainer who will work with what YOU want for your dog. If they are a good trainer, they will be able to help you. 

Also, getting titles without e-collars and force fetch is not "more of an accomplishment." It takes nothing away from the dog or the trainer. Unless you really want to tell Anney and Barb (and a whole heck of a lot of others) their titles are somehow "not as good" as others. It is just a different way of training. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

Mlopez, that was an EXCELLENT post. Exactly what I think our OP was looking for. My Tucker quivers and shakes like he is about to freeze to death he gets so worked up to run...... eyes so fixed it's borderline creepy.  He lives for that.... very much like a kid on Christmas morning!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Look, I'm trying to thank all comments. E collar, positive trainer, Amish style training---different paths to the same destination.

Back to the OP---if someone with more experience tells you something was wrong with those demo dogs, then probably something was wrong. Quivering can come from excitement. Tail between legs, ears pinned back, walking like a dog that is preparing to get a beating (just waiting to get burned)---that's something else. Once you have seen it you will know what I mean.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Also, getting titles without e-collars and force fetch is not "more of an accomplishment." It takes nothing away from the dog or the trainer. Unless you really want to tell Anney and Barb (and a whole heck of a lot of others) their titles are somehow "not as good" as others. It is just a different way of training. Nothing more, nothing less.


Actually, if it is more difficult and takes longer to get a title on a dog who has never been zapped or pinched in his life, I would think that DOES deserve huge kudos if the person does it in short order. And it _is_ probably a bigger accomplishment.

That's kinda why I hope that anti-ecollar people DO go out into the field and figure out how to get SH and MH titles without using those collars or pinching their dogs ears. As opposed to telling everyone else to change their training methods...


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Megora said:


> Actually, if it is more difficult and takes longer to get a title on a dog who has never been zapped or pinched in his life, I would think that DOES deserve huge kudos if the person does it in short order. And it _is_ probably a bigger accomplishment.
> 
> That's kinda why I hope that anti-ecollar people DO go out into the field and figure out how to get SH and MH titles without using those collars or pinching their dogs ears. As opposed to telling everyone else to change their training methods...



Hm. Well, I completely disagree.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> Actually, if it is more difficult and takes longer to get a title on a dog who has never been zapped or pinched in his life, I would think that DOES deserve huge kudos if the person does it in short order. And it _is_ probably a bigger accomplishment.


That's like saying you should get half-credit for training a BC, golden or sheltie to an obedience title. Do you train any less often or with less creativity or conviction than someone with a basset hound? Would you like if you got a smaller ribbon than someone who passed with the same score but had a mastiff? 
Sorry, just because you choose an alternate training method it doesn't mean you are a better trainer or have achieved a higher goal.

And frankly, why would you purposefully choose a training method that is more difficult and time consuming for both dog and human. Hello..........


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> That's like saying you should get half-credit for training a BC, golden or sheltie to an obedience title. Do you train any less often or with less creativity or conviction than someone with a basset hound? Would you like if you got a smaller ribbon than someone who passed with the same score but had a mastiff? .....


This actually completely missed the point I was trying to make...  I never said they deserve bigger ribbons. 

I simply made the observation that people use ecollars and pinch their dogs ears for a reason. Without, it must be a lot more difficult getting your golden retrievers to run out long distances away from your side to retrieve some pretty disgusting sounding dead things whether they want to or not. 

People who choose not to use those training methods are deliberately denying themselves tools that would probably make their paths to titles a lot easier. And I know even with those tools it still isn't a snap for most goldens.

If some people could get their titles in short order on a young dog without using those established training methods, they should get some extra kudos. And it's going to matter a lot more to them because they know they didn't take the easier route with their dogs. 

I'm just trying to be nice here. :wave:

The breed difference thing - I had to chuckle about that, because well... I guess if a trainer ever gets a 200 with a mastiff in the open or utility ring, they DESERVE their own special better than thou ribbon.

ETA - I guess I was also thinking that if you truly enjoy training and your dog truly enjoys being trained, it's not going to matter how long it takes to get those titles.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> And frankly, why would you purposefully choose a training method that is more difficult and time consuming for both dog and human. Hello..........


You know, I find this offensive. 

Perhaps we all need to remember different people have differing goals and means to get there. Our choice of training methods depends on our backgrounds, mistakes that may have been made in the past etc. 

I used to believe force training was best, but I no longer do. This does not mean I am stupid or dense, or deserving of ridicule ; just that I think a bit differently now.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

For the record, Adirondac's Bella Allegra who is in the current issue of GR News as a new MH was trained to MH without a collar. It can be done. Justine Lorentzson, who is her owner, is one of my training partners. She feels a personal sense of accomplishment because she chose to train her that way even though the majority advised she use the collar. She personally found it very rewarding. On the other hand, she realizes that this does take longer. 

I feel that one should choose to train the way they like. Understand your method and try not to misuse your training tools.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Megora said:


> The breed difference thing - I had to chuckle about that, because well... I guess if a trainer ever gets a 200 with a mastiff in the open or utility ring, they DESERVE their own special better than thou ribbon.
> 
> ETA - I guess I was also thinking that if you truly enjoy training and your dog truly enjoys being trained, it's not going to matter how long it takes to get those titles.


Grins - You know the lady who took 1st place at the Open A Obedience Trial was actually speechless!! She won over 2 goldens who qualified (mine included) with a Ridgeback and was saying she has never won 1st place - it was really wonderful to see someone so happy


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> You know, I find this offensive.
> 
> Perhaps we all need to remember different people have differing goals and means to get there. Our choice of training methods depends on our backgrounds, mistakes that may have been made in the past etc.
> 
> I used to believe force training was best, but I no longer do. This does not mean I am stupid or dense, or deserving of ridicule ; just that I think a bit differently now.


Sorry this offends you, it was not directed at you though. It's my opinion, however, so I'm at liberty to express it. Of course we all have different goals and that is fine, it's what makes the world go round. 

And let me clarify that by "more difficult and takes longer" I am implying not only from the handler's point of view but the dog's point of view as well. Training sans collar for many people can be A LOT of wear and tear on the dog. A lot more than a modern collar-based program. Not all, but a lot. THIS is what I don't understand, why someone would consciously choose that. 

Anyways, to the OP, you can have miserable looking dogs with an ecollar and miserable looking dogs with a buckle collar and a fistfull of cookies. It's the trainer, not the tool. 



> I simply made the observation that people use ecollars and pinch their dogs ears for a reason. Without, it must be a lot more difficult getting your golden retrievers to run out long distances away from your side to retrieve some pretty disgusting sounding dead things whether they want to or not.
> 
> People who choose not to use those training methods are deliberately denying themselves tools that would probably make their paths to titles a lot easier.


This is true. 



> If some people could get their titles in short order on a young dog without using those established training methods, they should get some extra kudos.


I guess. If the dog worked really well and happily then that'd be what impressed me, not the method or the dog's age. 



> And it's going to matter a lot more to them because they know they didn't take the easier route with their dogs.


Well that's silly  They wouldn't know if they were more or less proud b/c of the way they trained vs. having achieved the same thing with another method, because they can only use one method. It's like people saying "you're life will never be complete without X" (and X could be being married, having children, taking a trip to France, driving a Corvette, or whatever). How would anyone know! You can't do both at once and compare it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think I'll curtail any further discussion with the regulars about ecollars, to avoid getting banned for being condescending, rude or sarcastic, with the advice to the OP of, if you are interested in field training with your golden, find some local groups, and stick with who you think trains the way you feel is right and whose dogs perform in a manner you'd like your dog to perform. Know that the dog's working attitude is always the result of the trainer, not the tool(s) the trainer employs.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think it pretty unfair to claim that it is a better accomplishment to train a certain style or to achieve titles by a certain age...there are too many factors that go into it. And a good dog is a good dog regardless.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> I think it pretty unfair to claim that it is a better accomplishment to train a certain style or to achieve titles by a certain age...there are too many factors that go into it.


But it's equally unfair to claim that it's not anything special if somebody takes the difficult road and succeeds. 

People get nice hunt titles with their dogs using ecollars and FF methods - all the time. These training methods are pretty common and work well for a wider selection of people. And yep, they deserve kudos for getting those titles and have heard the congrats loud and clear, especially here on GRF.  

But a select few actually make it without using those specific methods. Select few means that it's a pretty special thing when they accomplish that. 

That's all I meant. 

I felt I had to say something when somebody brushed that accomplishment off as nothing special. Or it sounded that way.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito, too...if he's crouched down a bit, every muscle tense and quivering, he's ready to turn on the afterburners and GO!



Tuckers Mom said:


> Mlopez, that was an EXCELLENT post. Exactly what I think our OP was looking for. My Tucker quivers and shakes like he is about to freeze to death he gets so worked up to run...... eyes so fixed it's borderline creepy.  He lives for that.... very much like a kid on Christmas morning!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

so does that mean if I only train 1 day a month, I"ve taken the harder way, and should be praised for finally getting the title, although it takes longer?
I also disagree about the age at which a title is achieved, although I would really say to me it has to do more with how much the dog was shown in any sport than with the age. To me an OTCH achieved at 3 years old in 50 shows means a lot more about the dog's ability (and the handler, too, more than likely but not always) than an OTCH achieved at 10 years old in 500 shows. Same with the breed ring. A dog that shows for 4 years, every weekend, and finally gets the CH is probably not as good of a specimen as a dog that shows for 6 months, once a month, and gets the CH. And so on.
Every dog is different. They learn at different rates, they excel in different things. It's not a race to get there first, it's about doing things with your dogs that you both enjoy.
My dog would NOT have enjoyed obedience (he doesn't really anyway) if it had been taught with force or negative reinforcement. He succeeded because he was trained in the correct manner for his temperament, for the obedience ring. As I've said before, my training methods change with the sport. I have to have a very heavy hand with him (NOT CRUEL, just firm) in field, but a very positive, cheerful one in obedience.
I know, I"m rambling again.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Heavy Hands+ E Collar = sucks for the dog. I don't like watching trainers who have heavy hands on a dog, no matter what venue. They win sometimes, they have awesome dogs with great achievements, but I have no use for it. Maybe you can get good results with skillful judicious use of the e collar, but you can ruin a dog with poor use.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is my opinion, which anyone is free to ignore. Aside from the issue of e collar use in the best hands with top national competitors is the issue of the person who gets a first retriever, watches a video(maybe), and puts on an e collar to learn by trial and error how to use it. That is all too common. Even one of our our really good trainers here
has admitted in the past they got frustrated a time or two and used the collar harshly. At our training center, we see quite a few e collar wrecks every month. 

Every training method mistake comes with a trade off. When you use aversives for teaching, it comes out somewhere in the dog. Maybe your dog works well in the field, but then has a shorter fuse than he otherwise would have gets in a fight / is reactive. Maybe he works well at the specific task, but is ambivalent about recalling to you. Maybe he works brilliantly for a while, but then sours on the venue. Maybe your dog is great in practice but falls apart in competiton. . . Most people advocating e collar use use it only to reinforce what the dog thoroughly understands and have properly collar conditioned the dog. However, the people I actually see in real life are hardly ever working at the skill level of our best GR field trainers here.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Edit to add: And if you chose not to use force said:


> I agree with this. Some people have such a belief in the e collar they want to belittle or bully others who are finding a different way to train. Also, many trainers who do not believe in them at all equally try to shame e collars users by painting them as mean or barbaric. I think lots of us fall on one side or the other, and then try very hard to temper or tone down our language. It is almost like a political thread in the Obama election days! There is a great distance between one view and the other. I am grateful for the people who are truly in the middle ground for keeping things civil. All of us on one side or the other have to use so much willpower to stay conversational.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Every dog is different. They learn at different rates, they excel in different things. It's not a race to get there first, it's about doing things with your dogs that you both enjoy.
> My dog would NOT have enjoyed obedience (he doesn't really anyway) if it had been taught with force or negative reinforcement. He succeeded because he was trained in the correct manner for his temperament, for the obedience ring. As I've said before, my training methods change with the sport. I have to have a very heavy hand with him (NOT CRUEL, just firm) in field, but a very positive, cheerful one in obedience.
> I know, I"m rambling again.


Oh Barb, I think you have stated the heart of the matter. Even the same dog may require differing approaches by venue, and what works for one dog does not necessarily work for the next.

Know yourself, know your dog(s) and know your tools. Be willing to keep an open mind about what may work best for this dog, in this place at this time.

For the OP: If you were uncomfortable with the dogs you saw, look into a different trainer; they can be hard to find but a good trainer is so worth the search


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

sunrise said:


> oh barb, i think you have stated the heart of the matter. Even the same dog may require differing approaches by venue, and what works for one dog does not necessarily work for the next.
> 
> Know yourself, know your dog(s) and know your tools. Be willing to keep an open mind about what may work best for this dog, in this place at this time.
> 
> For the op: If you were uncomfortable with the dogs you saw, look into a different trainer; they can be hard to find but a good trainer is so worth the search


 
*post of the day. *


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> so does that mean if I only train 1 day a month, I"ve taken the harder way, and should be praised for finally getting the title, although it takes longer?


That's not what I was saying. :bowl:




> I also disagree about the age at which a title is achieved, although I would really say to me it has to do more with how much the dog was shown in any sport than with the age.


I mentioned age simply because that is the biggest issue that people have about going the pos-reinforcement only route - in obedience and hunt. In fact, I think other people on this thread mentioned the length of time being a detriment (I think K9-Design mentioned the wear and tear on the dog). 

I know somebody who got a JH on her two year old golden in a very short time - this using an ecollar. 

This while I know only one person who got a JH title on her three year old without using an ecollar or harsh methods. 

That's a one year difference between the two. 

I don't know anyone personally who has gone further than JH without using an ecollar. 

And I guess reading up here on GRF about what's involved with hunt tests and how you can't exactly rely completely on the dog's natural instinct alone, I think that NOT using some kind of long distance correction on the dog (like the ecollar) would be a big thing. 



> Every dog is different. They learn at different rates, they excel in different things. It's not a race to get there first, it's about doing things with your dogs that you both enjoy.


Completely agree. The other thing is I know goldens mature at different rates. And it comes down to their inexperienced owner/handler messing them up and holding them back. That I know too well.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

I'm no expert (1 MH, another with 3 passes) but I've trained with and without a collar. I would choose the collar every time.

The first dog I trained to advanced titles was clicker trained. He LOVED to retrieve and work with me. Got 3 master passes before an ear injury ended his career. He also is a MACH UDX. It was not easy to get to the master level. And there were times, I had no way to correct him when he's 150 yards out in the lake blowing me off. I'm quite sure he would have earned the title had he not been injured. BUT....that would have been the end of his master career. There were too many holes that couldn't be fixed. Continuing to run him at weekend tests would have been hit or miss.

The next dog, equally birdy and loved to retrieve, was colllar conditioned at 5 months. He titled easily and actually went to the master national this year. He is a dog that I can continue to run and enjoy. I think using the collar allows you to expect a higher criteria because you have these tools to use.

My youngest was also collar conditioned and force fetched by a professional at 5 months. He's a nut job. The collar means work and he sticks his head out to have it put on. 

I also train with purely positive people and I believe there are many times they are very negative to their dogs. LOTS of nagging, no clear direction. Not making the dogs responsible. Enabling them. Its mental torture.

Whether you train with an e-collar or buckle collar, the difference is really with the trainer at the other end.

Kathy


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I also train with purely positive people and I believe there are many times they are very negative to their dogs. LOTS of nagging, no clear direction. Not making the dogs responsible. Enabling them. Its mental torture.


This is actually why I drive 40 minutes to train where I do vs the 15 minutes to take lessons from the woman I mentioned who got a JH on her dog without using an ecollar. 

I do know some people who have really great results with their clicker/toy/treats only trained dogs. And this person is one of those who has great results with her golden. 

My problem is that if you don't have that timing (clicker impaired) or patience (doing 10 steps to teach something that should only take 2 steps), then you are probably are going to have inconsistent and disappointing results with your dog.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

One interesting element is that many of the top trainers who use science-based clicker training etc are (not surprisingly) not very into killing as many birds as it takes to train a working retriever. When you watch a litter of puppies play with a bird who is alive, but whose wings are tied down, not everyone is going to see the standard for goldens is that of a working retriever and think of it as worth the bird's suffering to keep that innate ability in the dogs. I went to field training at West Thompson Dam pretty regularly when Tally was a youngster, and there were lots of protestors from the area picketing with signs. It did get to me. So many of the best positive trainers are not going to turn their talents to field training bc their emphasis is on humane methods and they simply don't consider killing birds for sport and training humane. This just widens the gulf on both sides.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Heavy Hands+ E Collar = sucks for the dog.


Point of order: "Heavy hands" + *ANY AVERSIVE* = sucks for the dog. It's not at all specific to e-collars. It is specific to the use, or more correctly _abuse_ of pressure. That can come from an e-collar, a heeling stick, a leash, or a rolled up newspaper. It's not the e-collar that is problematic; it's the heavy hands!

The e-collar is one of the finest and most efficient tools ever created for dog training. But with its great efficiency comes great responsibility. It calls on us to go to the trouble to learn the proper methods for its use.


"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Live dangerously; get a little knowledge." (From the moving _'Lord love a duck!'_)

EvanG


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Even, now that I agree with! 

I had written and edited out bc it was too long and off topic, about a show handler who is very popular here who whomps dogs on the nose with the back of a brush pretty frequently and a lab field pro whose been known to kick dogs, but is still very sought after. I think there is less room for error when aversives are used and not that they can never be effective or constructive for getting the best performance from a dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> So many of the best positive trainers are not going to turn their talents to field training bc their emphasis is on humane methods and they simply don't consider killing birds for sport and training humane. This just widens the gulf on both sides.


I think this is a cop out if this is their excuse for not taking their dogs out into the field and training. 

And I'm saying this as somebody who loves birds and wants all dove hunting in surrounding states to be banned and that's how I voted a couple years ago here in Michigan.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Megora said:


> I think this is a cop out if this is their excuse for not taking their dogs out into the field and training.
> 
> And I'm saying this as somebody who loves birds and wants all dove hunting in surrounding states to be banned and that's how I voted a couple years ago here in Michigan.


You did WHAT? Why?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

gdgli said:


> You did WHAT? Why?


*Takes a deep breath and prepares to ramble*

I voted against hunting mourning doves specifically. Although I mutter time and again about how I want all dove hunting to be banned.  I used to have a pet dove and I don't see much difference between that bird I hand-raised and took care of and those doves out in the wild. 

Plus, the mourning doves where I live don't fare very well because they are brainless nest-builders who lose their nests in the first windstorm. I've picked up and taken enough babies to the local nature center to know this. Plus, those babies were lucky they survived that long, since most eggs don't hatch. 

Thankfully, I'm not the only one here in Michigan who likes to wake up to hear doves outside the house. Plus it was disgusting to listen to pro-dove-hunting hunters on the radio leading up to the election talking about how the doves were good eating and a good beginner bird for the kiddy hunters. 

Hunt ducks and geese guys. Especially the nasty canadian geese. :wave:

ETA - To add to my previous post, I have friends who go on expensive trips to go birdwatching around the world and are involved with conservation/environmental issues because of their love of birds. These people are also hunters (mammals and birds). Because most people live close to a grocery store, there is no such thing as NOT hunting animals for sport. It does not mean these people aren't good people or not concerned about the welfare and humane treatment of animals.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Megora said:


> *Takes a deep breath and prepares to ramble*
> 
> I voted against hunting mourning doves specifically. Although I mutter time and again about how I want all dove hunting to be banned.  I used to have a pet dove and I don't see much difference between that bird I hand-raised and took care of and those doves out in the wild.
> 
> ...


Thank you for an honest answer and I really don't want to get into a big debate on this. I don't really see anything wrong with admitting that doves are good eating. I don't see anything wrong with stating the fact that doves are a good beginner bird for young hunters. Also, dove hunting is a family tradition for many. I don't see anything wrong with that. BTW, you didn't say it was OK to hunt pheasants.

You should be aware that the people that initiate the movements against dove hunting are usually the same people that are ant- lead shot, anti-hunting, anti-lead sinkers for fishing, anti-shooting sports, and anti-field trial and hunt test. There is a hidden agenda. 

I am involved with several sportsman's groups and I am well aware of the issues. These probably belong on another thread. 

I don't know if you are shooting or hunting. If not, I hope that you give it a try. You probably won't start on doves.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> BTW, you didn't say it was OK to hunt pheasants.


I'm waffly about pheasants simply because they are such a RARE thing to spot where I live. I just want to look at them and get pictures because they are beautiful birds. And again, the only times I've seen them is when I'm not expecting to see them. 

But I'm fine about people hunting pheasants since I KNOW it's not going to be easy for them to hunt them to extinction. And I don't have the same emotional hangup about pheasants that I do about doves.  

Same thing about wild turkey. We have a LOT of them here. It's crazy to see them running through the woods. <- Probably impossible for a golden to carry that home though. 

And I guess if they didn't carry west nile virus, I'd also be encouraging you guys to hunt crows. Because there are so MANY of them.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

gdgli said:


> Thank you for an honest answer and I really don't want to get into a big debate on this. I don't really see anything wrong with admitting that doves are good eating. I don't see anything wrong with stating the fact that doves are a good beginner bird for young hunters. Also, dove hunting is a family tradition for many. I don't see anything wrong with that. BTW, you didn't say it was OK to hunt pheasants.
> 
> You should be aware that the people that initiate the movements against dove hunting are usually the same people that are ant- lead shot, anti-hunting, anti-lead sinkers for fishing, anti-shooting sports, and anti-field trial and hunt test. There is a hidden agenda.
> 
> ...



I've been reading this thread because I love ecollar wank. However, I have to comment on your remark re: anti-lead protesters. There is a big, BIG reason why lead is considered a dangerous element to introduce into the environment, and I don't understand why anyone would be pro-lead. Maybe you're not and I just read into your comment the wrong way, but I had to say it!

Fwiw I have no problem with hunting for sport so long as it's done in a morally conscious way. In fact, I credit hunting for why so many natural preserves exist today.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Game bird populations are studied by biologists. They determine whether or not an area can sustain a hunt for a particular species. There is a lot of science that goes into determining huntability of a species and seasons. And hunting is a valid tool for conservation. BTW, loss of habitat is the largest factor for population size. Modern legal hunting will probably never result in extinction of a species.

I would like to encourage you to learn to shoot and try some hunting.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> I think this is a cop out if this is their excuse for not taking their dogs out into the field and training.


I know multiple people who compete in other venues with their dogs but eschew field trials because they don't like killing and maiming birds. If it were a cop out, why are they doing all the other competition?

Maybe some people use it as a cop out, but I don't know any.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

gdgli said:


> I would like to encourage you to learn to shoot and try some hunting.


No hunting for me... unless next spring I finally take some hunt/field classes to play with my dog. And even then I have no idea if he will handle the sounds of gun shots. This summer really helped mellow him out about hearing guns and not going into a mind-numbed panic. I can now take him swimming near an active gun club and he's now going for walks while the continuous pop-pop-pop of guns (I live within 5 miles of two gun clubs). 

And even then, a friend assured me that I don't have to actually be taking aim and killing anything if I do any tests. I got the idea you have to hold a gun and make it look good.  Please don't freak me out and tell me I actually have to hold a loaded gun.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

kdmarsh said:


> I've been reading this thread because I love ecollar wank. However, I have to comment on your remark re: anti-lead protesters. There is a big, BIG reason why lead is considered a dangerous element to introduce into the environment, and I don't understand why anyone would be pro-lead. Maybe you're not and I just read into your comment the wrong way, but I had to say it!
> 
> Fwiw I have no problem with hunting for sport so long as it's done in a morally conscious way. In fact, I credit hunting for why so many natural preserves exist today.


The antis attack the shooting sports usually on the basis of lead contamination. This includes hunting and target shooting. The New York Athletic Club had filed a lawsuit concerning the location of their trapshooting range. Action was brought to close it down and my understanding is that they won the lawsuit and they could continue to operate their range. Lawsuit was based on lead contamination data but conflicting data was presented to the court. However by that time members lost interest in continuing to shoot so they closed the range anyway. Same data was submitted to another club for their defense against a similar lawsuit (I think it was Willowbrook). Their lawsuit was also dismissed. Nobody questions that lead poisoning occurs. What is in question is that all lead results in lead poisoning. Arguments are that not all forms of lead will lead to poisoning. Also, I think that the studies were originally based on waterfowl studies.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Megora said:


> And even then, a friend assured me that I don't have to actually be taking aim and killing anything if I do any tests. I got the idea you have to hold a gun and make it look good.  Please don't freak me out and tell me I actually have to hold a loaded gun.


You will not have to shoot the birds your dog retrieves in a Hunt Test. You will have to hold a gun, beyond Junior level at least.

BUT, you will need to volunteer and help out at training events and if you join a club, at their tests. If you work the dead bird stations (not the live bird), you will probably be shooting a shotgun loaded with blanks, unless there are multiple people at the blind. But your dog is not with you in the blinds 

There are also other jobs you could do, but manning the blinds is pretty much a given


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Find another trainer that knows what he is doing. I have used FF and Ecollars for years and you will never see a dog I train with his tail between his legs. You may seem them shaking with anticipation because they enjoy what they do. But their head will be up and wanting to go. When my dogs go to line they go tail up and focused. They understand the corrections from the Ecollar and continue to work with the same enthusiasm as when they left the line.



Discoverer said:


> Last weekend I went with my puppy to the field and hunt workshop, where instructors used their well trained dogs to demonstrate various training techniques including forced training. They dogs performed really amazing, but I noticed all their dogs are tense and nervous - heads down, often tail between legs and shaking during execution. They guy said the dogs were excited, but it doesn't seems this way. I have seen a couple other force training demonstrations and noticed the same thing - dog's shaking and nervousness.
> My dog is 6 1/2 months old. I haven't tried any forced methods and always use positive reinforcement, but heard many times that if I want to progress with training I will need to use e-collar, whipping stick, ear pinch, etc. I wouldn't feel very good if my puppy will change his happy attitude about training and be shaking and constantly expecting the e-shock during his field training.
> Do you think the tension and nervousness are the unavoidable components of the forced training?
> I just want to hear your thoughts and comments on this matter.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Radarsdad said:


> Find another trainer that knows what he is doing. I have used FF and Ecollars for years and you will never see a dog I train with his tail between his legs. You may seem them shaking with anticipation because they enjoy what they do. But their head will be up and wanting to go. When my dogs go to line they go tail up and focused. They understand the corrections from the Ecollar and continue to work with the same enthusiasm as when they left the line.


Very well said. And that was also a very nice way of steering this topic back on track. Good training is good training, whether or not an e-collar is involved.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And I'm going to steer it back off track because I want to clarify the "heavy hand" since I was the one who said it, and it caused some consternation.
I should have said, "firm hand", which is more what I meant. I can't give him an inch in field training, I have to constantly be certain that he is playing by MY rules. In the other venues, I can let him pretty much do whatever he wants to. In obedience if he makes a mistake, it's simply a mistake and we just say "uh oh" and do it again. In field, more than likely, he made a choice to do it HIS way.
Which has nothing to do with e-collars. Has to do with his personality.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> ...Which has nothing to do with e-collars. Has to do with his personality.


I would assert that it still has a more direct relationship with pressure application principles...even than the individual dog. Here's why. Regardless of how pressure is applied, we use it for an over arching reason; to change behavior. Clearly, some dogs require more pressure to accomplish that than others. But pressure application principles call upon a trainer to read each dog to meet the goals of training.

If you use pressure, but do not change behavior, you're not effectively training; you're nagging. What that tends to do is desensitize the dog, and promote misbehavior.
If you use more pressure than is needed to change behavior, that is abuse. We _all_ know the potential results of that.
You may very well have a dog with a great resistance to pressure, and/or to training in general. The above principles apply to that dog just as they do to any other. You have the same balancing act to perform. It just has challenges individual to that dog.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have a dog with a huge resistance to pressure in the field. It is, as you've said, challenging to find the right balance between not enough pressure, and too much. Any other venue, virtually NO pressure is the correct answer.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I have used the ecollar for training purposed for my dogs I am training for field work and Teddi. I have never ever seen them with their tails between their legs. My young two (field training) get excited when I get their collars out as they know those mean fun. They in no way associate any correction that comes from the collar with the collar. They associate it with the task at hand, and fix the problem so no correction the next time. 

I have two extremes of behavior when it comes to corrections in general (collar or other) Quinn is a hard headed lab, she can take what you want to dish out. Not saying we have, but we have upped the pressure on her and had her stand her ground. Once she gets it, she gets it end of story, no more pressure. Gabby tries to 'avoid' pressue, at first she doesn't figure out what turns it off, she turns avoids it. She was suprising stubborn at first with collar pressure, once she realized that if she did the task asked, it went away, she could not do the task fast enough. Both my dogs are doing well with their various trainings involving pressure, they are just two different ends of the spectrum. 

Pressure is also a variety of levels, Gabby does not need much to get a point across, Quinn can take a bit more. Both want to please so once they understand to work with the pressure they are enthusiatic workers, and then we move on with out pressure. 

Lastly about guns.... I am anti gun. I don't mind people hunting, owning guns, firing guns, just do not ask me. As a young girl I saw the result of a gunshot on a human being up close and personal. I vowed I would never touch one. In AKC you can use a wooden carved gun for the higher tests. In UKC/HRC past started you are required to handle a gun. Which is why my husband may be running Gabby in HRC tests from here forward. I will do the training he can run her. Hubby is a hunter (got a nice big 8 point last week deer hunting) we have guns in our house but in a safe locked place. They truly scare me. I won't be a gunner in a station either. I can wing the birds but don't ask me to fire the guns. Fake or real I don't want to have anything to do with them. Wood pieces are fine.


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## luvgld7 (Jan 23, 2008)

tippykayak writes:
"The OP's actual question was "Do you think the tension and nervousness are the unavoidable components of the forced training?" That's not just "e-collar training for the purpose of hunt and field." 
---
Well, the OP came to the Hunt and Field section of this forum to ask a question after he or she had been to a field and hunt workshop. They went on to state; "I wouldn't feel very good if my puppy will change his happy attitude about training and be shaking and constantly expecting the e-shock DURING HIS FIELD TRAINING."

It's pretty safe to assume OP was asking about field training; if not they could come back here and clarify.

To the OP: you've been given a lot of varying answers, hopefully some will be helpful. You now know that field training can be done with and without e-collar training. 

You know your dog best. Find someone who trains in the method you prefer, join a retriever club and have fun. You may find, down the road, that you change your preference in training.

For the record, my golden, who came from conformation lines, got his SH and was trained with an e-collar. In the blinds, he was so excited to get to the line that he would shake a little. And a few 'snorts' were thrown in there telling me to get him to the line.

Good for you for wanting to encourage the field instinct in your golden!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

luvgld7 said:


> tippykayak writes:
> "The OP's actual question was "Do you think the tension and nervousness are the unavoidable components of the forced training?" That's not just "e-collar training for the purpose of hunt and field."
> ---
> Well, the OP came to the Hunt and Field section of this forum to ask a question after he or she had been to a field and hunt workshop. They went on to state; "I wouldn't feel very good if my puppy will change his happy attitude about training and be shaking and constantly expecting the e-shock DURING HIS FIELD TRAINING."
> ...


I didn't say the OP wasn't talking about field training. I said he wasn't talking _only_ about field training, as the part of my words you quoted ("that's not _just_...") clearly states. But what's your point?


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on e-collar and force training in general. I didn't expect to receive just a "Yes" or "No" answer, thus reading your personal experience and the different point of view is really helpful. I have a somewhat prolong conversation with trainers who performed with their dogs during the workshop I mentioned earlier and I think we cleared most of the questions I had. They offered to attend some of their training session to observe the aids/drills they are going through. This people seems to be very open and don't insist on using e-collar, they say it will be easier and more efficient if I'll decide to use it, but if I wouldn't feel comfortable for any reason to use e-collar they are fine with it too. I do agree with many of you who mentioned e-collar is just a tool and its efficiency will totally depend on who and how use it. That's why before committing one way or the the other I wanted to hear the voices from the different sides of the fence.
Once again thank you all!


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## marsh mop (Mar 13, 2009)

This stuff is so positive and fun to read, when you use the ignore setting. Train the dog you have. Or pick out a trainer that fits the style of dog you want. Enjoy your pup.
Jim


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Discoverer said:


> Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on e-collar and force training in general. I didn't expect to receive just a "Yes" or "No" answer, thus reading your personal experience and the different point of view is really helpful. I have a somewhat prolong conversation with trainers who performed with their dogs during the workshop I mentioned earlier and I think we cleared most of the questions I had. They offered to attend some of their training session to observe the aids/drills they are going through. This people seems to be very open and don't insist on using e-collar, they say it will be easier and more efficient if I'll decide to use it, but if I wouldn't feel comfortable for any reason to use e-collar they are fine with it too. I do agree with many of you who mentioned e-collar is just a tool and its efficiency will totally depend on who and how use it. That's why before committing one way or the the other I wanted to hear the voices from the different sides of the fence.
> Once again thank you all!


Just realized you are in the Vancouver area--if you get the chance to train with John & Janice Gunn(TNT Kennels near Abbotsford), or with Anne Everett (Heads Up Kennels on the island), jump at it!!! Joanne Kinney at Zaniri(near Surrey) has also been doing very well with her dogs. Don't know if these were any of the folks you saw, but any of them would be a great resource to guide you along.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I have made the choice not to use force methods with my dogs. I have very limited field experience and certainly have no plans to complete any advanced field titles. My focus is agility, but I still enjoying doing some field training with my dogs. They love getting birds! My dogs always have a choice in the work that we do. My job is to find a way to teach them to choose to play with me. I enjoy the task and we have a lot of fun together.

In my experience many people use e-collars and force methods for field training. Most dogs are very happy and their owners/trainers are very fair with their chosen methods. I have also seen some that do not appear happy, but I believe it is the way those people used the tools rather than the tools themselves.

If you are uncertain, spend more time watching people and talking to people in person. Find someone whose dogs look happy! A good trainer will not have unhappy working dogs, no matter how they choose to train.

Good luck!


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## Discoverer (Feb 3, 2011)

sterregold said:


> Just realized you are in the Vancouver area--if you get the chance to train with John & Janice Gunn(TNT Kennels near Abbotsford), or with Anne Everett (Heads Up Kennels on the island), jump at it!!! Joanne Kinney at Zaniri(near Surrey) has also been doing very well with her dogs. Don't know if these were any of the folks you saw, but any of them would be a great resource to guide you along.


Thank you. All people you mentioned are well know in Lower Mainland. I didn't have a chance to meet Anne in person, as she is the on island. Oscar graduated obedience class at TNT Kennel and I spoke with Joanne at last field trial and actually she recommended the Fraser Valley Retriever Training Club, whose workshop I've been attended. This seminar is being conducted as a per-requisite to the training program.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

sterregold said:


> Just realized you are in the Vancouver area--if you get the chance to train with John & Janice Gunn(TNT Kennels near Abbotsford), or with Anne Everett (Heads Up Kennels on the island), jump at it!!! Joanne Kinney at Zaniri(near Surrey) has also been doing very well with her dogs. Don't know if these were any of the folks you saw, but any of them would be a great resource to guide you along.


Great folks, all of them. I've given two seminars at TNT Kennels. Some of the best grounds in BC, and excellent water. Anne is a great success story, and comes to the mainland often, inspite of her own very good land & water on the island. She made a major jump from obedience to field, having trained numerous MH's, and QAA dogs w/all age points.

Anne is well known as a fine mentor in her own right.

EvanG


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