# Sit/stay command with a puppy?



## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

at what age should a dog be EXPECTED to sit and stay for several minutes and not move until you say so.

I am not a trainer but I am assuming a 4 month old puppy can not sit for longer than 30 seconds.

I am working on this with Cody and he will sit and stay at the front door and not bolt outside, which I think is amazing for 4 months.

But at what age should he be expected to sit and stay in any situation for a long period of time?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I start teaching stay at around 4 months... and w/in a six week class, find that dogs that age can learn up to about 10 mins w/o distractions, the owner nearby and lots of supervision and praise.. and maybe a reminder or two here and there.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

So I guess really, they aren't doing the 10 min stay until around 5-6 months.


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## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> So I guess really, they aren't doing the 10 min stay until around 5-6 months.


really? I just can't imagine a puppy sitting for that long, lol
I guess I better get goign on this one then
Is this command expected in all situations at this age, or with limited distractions?

Sorry, I noticed you mentioned w/o distractions.
At what age should they be able to sit with distractions?

I remember going to a puppy class with a prevuous dog we had and the trainer had her 3 year old dog just sitting there while all the puppies ran around like jumping beans. It was amazing to see to say the least.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Don't worry about where he is... also, when I start teaching it, I give them something to do - like work peanut butter out of a KONG toy. I want them to be nice and relaxed. Practice this when he's already a little tired. Give him lots of almost constant feedback -- "good stttaaary.... goooood boy...., etc." Keep it nice and calm. If he tries to get up, just gently remind him you're asking that he remain in his down. Remove all distractions in the beginning. Stay RIGHT THERE with him. You won't get 10 mins in the beginning. You might get 10 seconds, then 15... then 20.... then 35, etc. Once the dog has his "ah ha!" moment, adding time to it is really very simple. I suggest people practice at night during the TV commercial breaks. If you watch a one hour show, you'll have about 4, three-min practice sessions. If you do that nightly, you can be at 10 mins in about 6 weeks.


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## beargroomer (Jan 2, 2008)

Depends on the pup and owner...?? I may have a genius pup... 

About 3 weeks ago Gibson (right at 4 months) had a training session (sneakily disguised by the owners to appear as a playdate to the dogs) with a trainer and his dog. Gibson successfully did a few sit-stays and down-stays while we threw the ball for the other dog to fetch. I also threw a very light foam ball in his face (I meant to throw it BY him, but it bounced off his head. LOL.) and he held his stay. He loooooves other dogs and gets very excited, just like any other pup, but he's also learning to control himself around them through non-stop puppy classes we've been doing since he was 9 weeks. I started asking for attention or stays with dogs far far away and I kept moving closer every chance I got until we were able to do that stay while the other dog ran around fetching. I wouldn't ask him to hold a stay at a dog park while dogs were jumping on him or anything, but we're definitely building up to one or two *controlled* dogs around us.

When we FIRST started, it was at home with very minimal distractions (the TV time Kong stays FQ talks about, as well as some short stays around the house without Kong) and kept it short and sweet. But now we've built up to much more - at the park, playground, in the garage, at starbucks, in front of the mall, etc. 
I don't ask him to do super long stays outside, around distractions, but we can probably do a 10 minute down stay inside the house, no problem. 
WITH distractions, I've asked him to do stays as long as a minute or two, while I stand no farther than 5 ft. away and with maybe a reminder or two if needed. I keep my tone and reminders very calm always, never stern or too serious. I also make sure to keep an eye on him and release him way before he starts getting too antsy, and then build up little bit everyday. 

Our crazy moment was at 3.5 months. We were able to do sit-stays and down-stays in front of the movie theater on a busy Friday night, 10-15 ft. away from lines of movie goers and people walking by. I walked away to about 40-50 ft. (still within sight) and he held the stays perfectly. At one point, a kid ran by him, and he still held it. (turned his head very slightly.) I came back and released him about 30-40 seconds later. Stephanie later pointed out that it's more important to add distractions first rather than distance, which made a lot of sense. Even though we had been doing a lot of distractions, we're now working on even CLOSER distractions instead of doing distance stuff. I knew he'd do well at the theater, and he did, but it was still an newb mistake on my part. : 

Yes, I totally sound like I'm showing off (OK, I am, LOL.) but I'm also trying to say that longer stays (especially WITHOUT distractions) are totally possible if you practice everyday and build up and if you start your practices when the dog and owner are already in a calmer state. Gibson always has fun outlets to be a puppy and burn off mad puppy energy, and I am very good and sneaky about throwing fun training exercises disguised as games, so all of that helps a lot for him to be calm when I ask him to be. He doesn't feel like I'm holding him down with scary stern voice or anything, so holding a few minutes of stay and controlling his impulses is really no big deal to the pup. Oh, and all the attention exercises and practicing being calm and settled in public places we've been doing since he was 7.5 weeks helps, too.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I teach stay/wait starting at 8 weeks - beginning with remain in the same position while I put your dish down and release you to it. At 16 weeks they are remaining seated (or down) while I make their dinners, put the bowls in the rack and then release them. If they break the stay I reset them and go back to my task at hand - and maybe take a little longer...by six months they are doing 10-15 minute out of sight stays with distractions successfully - but I break it up a lot in between.

Some of it depends on the dog, some of it depends on what the owner's long-term goals are (obedience or agility requires a finite behavior - household manners usually doesn't) and some of it depends on the owner being consistant about the behavior(s) they want...I teach my stays very gently, I do not believe in compulsion for the stays. I want my dogs to break initially because I want the opportunity to fix the problem...I work up to stays where I throw toys around them and throw food at them....In my classes the folks I see having problems with stay/waits (these are all pet people mind you) is that they aren't being consistant with their releases - the dogs don't understand their job and what is being asked of them...or the owners expect their dogs to just magically understand what stay means and they try to progress too fast without training the behavior...

Erica


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## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

thank you for the advice.

I know Cody has a lot of potential and it is me holding him back. With 2 small kids I don't have a lot of time during the day to do training. Most of it is at night in short spurts. I am working on the "got to spot" and "stay" commands right now.
We are having some issues with him jumping at the table to eat our food so these two commands are top priority.
And I do have aspirations to get him into Flyball, so I know training is a must.
I am also trying to find some dog classes starting int he new year but it has proven to be a bit of a challenge finding spaces.


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## beargroomer (Jan 2, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> I teach stay/wait starting at 8 weeks - beginning with remain in the same position while I put your dish down and release you to it. At 16 weeks they are remaining seated (or down) while I make their dinners, put the bowls in the rack and then release them. If they break the stay I reset them and go back to my task at hand - and maybe take a little longer...by six months they are doing 10-15 minute out of sight stays with distractions successfully - but I break it up a lot in between.
> 
> Some of it depends on the dog, some of it depends on what the owner's long-term goals are (obedience or agility requires a finite behavior - household manners usually doesn't) and some of it depends on the owner being consistant about the behavior(s) they want...I teach my stays very gently, I do not believe in compulsion for the stays. I want my dogs to break initially because I want the opportunity to fix the problem...I work up to stays where I throw toys around them and throw food at them....In my classes the folks I see having problems with stay/waits (these are all pet people mind you) is that they aren't being consistant with their releases - the dogs don't understand their job and what is being asked of them...or the owners expect their dogs to just magically understand what stay means and they try to progress too fast without training the behavior...
> 
> Erica


We also started at 7.5 weeks with the waits - by the door, before food is served, at the curb before crossing the street, before meeting people, etc. and have moved up to throwing food and toys at him. We're at a point where Gibby doesn't even flinch at things like food or toys. He gets a little wiggly around dogs or little kids very close by, but he's getting better and better. Like Murphyteller, I gently put the pup back in place to show him what "stay" means, but never with compulsion. 
And BTW, I'm a pet owner, not a competitor or a professional, and don't really need to be teaching that solid of a stay, I guess, but it's just fun for me to see how far my pup can go...


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## MyCodyBoy (Sep 27, 2008)

I am thankful for the advice.

I was loading the dishwasher a few mintues ago and Cody has gotten into this habit of wanting to prerinse everything *sigh*
So I got him to do a sit/stay while I was loading and he stayed!
I did it really fast so he wouldn't have to stay for too long and I only had to get him to re sit/stay once.
I will try to encorporate the sit/stay with everything we do, not just opening the outside door.
He does do well at the dog park too though. Sometimes he wants to run after a dog that is leaving him and I will ask him to stay and he does. I think we will get there eventually.

thanx!


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

MyCodyBoy said:


> I am thankful for the advice.
> 
> I was loading the dishwasher a few mintues ago and Cody has gotten into this habit of wanting to prerinse everything *sigh*
> So I got him to do a sit/stay while I was loading and he stayed!
> ...


Take your time loading the dishwasher...but reinforce the stay while you are doing it...put a couple of dishes in, treat - GOOD STAY, put some more dishes in, TREAT - GOOD STAY, rinse a dish or two...etc etc etc.

Vary your reinforcement as you gradually increase duration. Both my dogs do 10 minute out of sight sits regularly - but I don't always stay out of sight for long durations. Sometimes I leave and come right back and reward...keeps them thinking  Stays can be VERY boring for the handler and the owner 

Erica


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## beargroomer (Jan 2, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> Take your time loading the dishwasher...but reinforce the stay while you are doing it...put a couple of dishes in, treat - GOOD STAY, put some more dishes in, TREAT - GOOD STAY, rinse a dish or two...etc etc etc.
> 
> Vary your reinforcement as you gradually increase duration. Both my dogs do 10 minute out of sight sits regularly - but I don't always stay out of sight for long durations. Sometimes I leave and come right back and reward...keeps them thinking  Stays can be VERY boring for the handler and the owner
> 
> Erica


I have a question now that you mentioned the out of sight stays and coming back to remind/reinforce sometimes... 

If I ask Gibson to stay and go up the stairs out of sight, should I sometimes be calling out "Gooood stay" while out of sight as a reminder so that I can remind without coming back to him? When I'm asking for really long stays within sight while I'm cleaning or something, I sometimes do the treat - goood stay, sweep the floor a little, treat - good stay, finish sweeping, come back and release him, like you mentioned above... But I wonder if that applies when I disappear, too...? I've done the longer stays where I disappear for a little bit, and come back soon and reward (or just say "good stay"), disappear again, etc. for out of sight stays in the house, and Gibson definitely holds his stays until I come back and release him. I've never called out reminders out of sight, but should I be doing that?


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## wagondog (Aug 24, 2007)

beargroomer said:


> I have a question now that you mentioned the out of sight stays and coming back to remind/reinforce sometimes...
> 
> If I ask Gibson to stay and go up the stairs out of sight, should I sometimes be calling out "Gooood stay" while out of sight as a reminder so that I can remind without coming back to him? When I'm asking for really long stays within sight while I'm cleaning or something, I sometimes do the treat - goood stay, sweep the floor a little, treat - good stay, finish sweeping, come back and release him, like you mentioned above... But I wonder if that applies when I disappear, too...? I've done the longer stays where I disappear for a little bit, and come back soon and reward (or just say "good stay"), disappear again, etc. for out of sight stays in the house, and Gibson definitely holds his stays until I come back and release him. I've never called out reminders out of sight, but should I be doing that?


Hi Kris......
Why not have Juno take your place with Gib for that out of sight stay for you until it is rock solid and proofed. You really don't want to set the dog up to fail, he is doing so well. Good Christmas wishes to you and Juno and my Godson.
Jerry and Harley


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

beargroomer said:


> I've done the longer stays where I disappear for a little bit, and come back soon and reward (or just say "good stay"), disappear again, etc. for out of sight stays in the house, and Gibson definitely holds his stays until I come back and release him. I've never called out reminders out of sight, but should I be doing that?


I wouldn't  For example, in the dishwasher scenerio you are reinforcing the stay while you are in sight. That's where that particular dog is "working" in that situation. If he's breaking while you're loading the dishwasher (and I know that was a different poster but I'm using the example) and you're resetting him in the dishwasher stay then I believe for that particular dog he needs more frequent reinforcement that he's doing what you want him to do and he probably doesn't understand what is being asked of him...now, if I put my dogs in a stay while I was loading the dishwasher would I go back in to them with reinforcement? Probably not - not at the level that they are trained to...Does that make sense? You want the puppy to be successful at the level to which they have been trained. For a dog who is used to (and gets reinforced for) licking the dishes clean (which is reinforcing - yummm! Mashed potatoes!) changing the rules to a stay near the dishwasher is a big step - not unreasonable - but a progression that (if I had a dog working at that level) I would make sure that I paid attention to and reinforced that behavior at more frequent intervals than if I was asking my CDX dogs for the same behavior.

Now to your question, before I start working out of sights I'd make sure that I'd worked my dogs at a longer duration in sight than I was asking for out of sight. There are three variables in stays: Distance, Duration and Distraction. You should only increase one variable at a time - so if you have a SOLID sit stay for 3 minutes at a distance of one step you don't suddenly take four steps and expect 3 minutes to be successful...The same thing for out of sights - if you're going upstairs to get a towel (again, random example) and know it will take you 45 seconds and you want to leave your dog in a stay for that time period you should have successes at 2 minutes at 20 feet or 1 minute out of sight but close-by...In other words I believe that if you are going to ask for a stay (any stay) you need to by 99.9% sure that they are going to be successful or the stay (in my opinion) starts to become an optional behavior. The dog knows you are leaving and you can't see them break. You also want to be able to correct (and by correct I mean fix not a physical correction) the broken stay as soon as it happens - which means having eyes in the back of your head, but also being close enough to know that the dog has broken the behavior...

If you progress through your stay work methodically and consistantly you'll know where your dog is working and how comfortable he or she is in the exercise. The other factor here which I haven't mentioned is anxiety. If you have a dog who is anxious about you leaving or being far away from him you need to work stays that much more consistantly and probably at a slower pace...

That's a lot of information - does it answer your question?

Erica


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Whatever age you teach it... most of mine know sit, stay very quickly- that's how I always take such good pictures... in my siggie of the two Whippets, the puppy standing over the other is doing a stay up on a table with the older one. He was nine weeks old.


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## beargroomer (Jan 2, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> I wouldn't  For example, in the dishwasher scenerio you are reinforcing the stay while you are in sight. That's where that particular dog is "working" in that situation. If he's breaking while you're loading the dishwasher (and I know that was a different poster but I'm using the example) and you're resetting him in the dishwasher stay then I believe for that particular dog he needs more frequent reinforcement that he's doing what you want him to do and he probably doesn't understand what is being asked of him...now, if I put my dogs in a stay while I was loading the dishwasher would I go back in to them with reinforcement? Probably not - not at the level that they are trained to...Does that make sense? You want the puppy to be successful at the level to which they have been trained. For a dog who is used to (and gets reinforced for) licking the dishes clean (which is reinforcing - yummm! Mashed potatoes!) changing the rules to a stay near the dishwasher is a big step - not unreasonable - but a progression that (if I had a dog working at that level) I would make sure that I paid attention to and reinforced that behavior at more frequent intervals than if I was asking my CDX dogs for the same behavior.
> 
> Now to your question, before I start working out of sights I'd make sure that I'd worked my dogs at a longer duration in sight than I was asking for out of sight. There are three variables in stays: Distance, Duration and Distraction. You should only increase one variable at a time - so if you have a SOLID sit stay for 3 minutes at a distance of one step you don't suddenly take four steps and expect 3 minutes to be successful...The same thing for out of sights - if you're going upstairs to get a towel (again, random example) and know it will take you 45 seconds and you want to leave your dog in a stay for that time period you should have successes at 2 minutes at 20 feet or 1 minute out of sight but close-by...In other words I believe that if you are going to ask for a stay (any stay) you need to by 99.9% sure that they are going to be successful or the stay (in my opinion) starts to become an optional behavior. The dog knows you are leaving and you can't see them break. You also want to be able to correct (and by correct I mean fix not a physical correction) the broken stay as soon as it happens - which means having eyes in the back of your head, but also being close enough to know that the dog has broken the behavior...
> 
> ...


Cool. All this advice for free.  

The trainer that we had that "playdate" with thinks Gibson doesn't need the reminders like "good stay" since Gibson has a very strong understanding of what "stay" means. I still like to treat and remind a couple of times when I ask Gibson for longer stays when I'm cleaning or sweeping, because like you said, it can be so boring to the pup. Maybe he really doesn't need the reminders as much now, though...? 
This morning, just for fun, I timed his stay while I prepared his breakfast. I sat him in the middle of the kitchen and cued the stay, and I moved around the kitchen, 5 ft. in either direction to drink water, take vitamins, fixing cat's and Gibson's water and food, opening pantry and refrigerator, adding salmon oil, crushing glucosamine, etc. etc. I think I took a little longer than usual - I don't time things exactly each time - but today's was 5 minutes and 15 seconds. I didn't give him any verbal reminders or needed to reset him. I did give him a hand signal once as I passed by him in at around 3 min mark just because, but I'm not sure if I even needed to do that... 

The out of sights... Yes, I started out with very short nearby ones first (for example, around the corner into the bathroom, out of sight, but just a few steps away), then increased a little bit of time, and have now built up to going upstairs or out to the garage, too. If it's longer stays, I'll sometimes come back to remind him and I was curious if it would be better to kind of call it out from out of sight or come back to him. (Thanks for the answer!) He's holding the stay the whole time, even without reminders... (I often have DH hide and sneak a look from behind the kitchen) And by the way, "longer" out of sights meaning longer for OUR current level, as in like 2 minutes, hehe, not as in like 10 minutes. So definitely shorter than the in sight sit stays we've built up to. Should I still come back to remind on the 2 minutes?

I don't know how methodical I am, but I have been trying (except for the movie theater one) to add slowly, be consistent and not add two things at once. Up til now, we didn't even mean to practice stays this much, but it just naturally built up. I'm home all day and I take him out a lot, too, so I just casually throw in some stays to our everyday activities indoors and outdoors and in between and during games, and just add more from each week... I don't measure precisely the distance of duration. Just eyeballing... 

Oh, and no anxiety when I disappear. But then again, it's only indoors when we do out of sight ones, so he doesn't really have a reason to be anxious...?? 

The movie theater stay, I got a little too brave. (oops. hehe.) We had been there before and we had done a lot of stays at the park and out in public around similar situations by then and I was really curious. : This puppy has realllllllllly good impulse control for his age and I was *pretty sure* he'd hold it. He'd been around crowds so much, met so many people in the first 6 weeks that it wasn't a big deal to him. He did, thankfully, hold the stay like a champ, but hugely stupid of me, I later realized, since he could have broken the stays and I'd have been a little too far to fix right away. Hehe. (But it was a cool moment. )

I don't know, the more we progress, the more technical things get. I find myself ordering books and wanting to learn more and more...
It's reallllllllly fun seeing my puppy get better and better, but my only specific goal so far for us is getting the CGC before he's 24 months and getting certified as a therapy dog whenever that may be, and just having fun, so if I really think about it, I guess all this doesn't matter THAT much. But it's still great to learn and correct what I'm doing wrong. Thank you so much for the explanation and help! Happy Holidays~~ 







wagondog said:


> Hi Kris......
> Why not have Juno take your place with Gib for that out of sight stay for you until it is rock solid and proofed. You really don't want to set the dog up to fail, he is doing so well. Good Christmas wishes to you and Juno and my Godson.
> Jerry and Harley



Hi Jer!!! 

Yes, Juno does help!  

I have to send you some pictures of Gibby soon! I think I also owe you an email reply.  Gibson is doing so well at the playgrounds and he met a deaf kid recently and he was so good! You'd be proud.  Hope you and Harley are doing well! Happy Holidays! Your Godson sends a big hug for you and Harley~~ :wave:


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