# Some help buying (1st time buyer)



## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

I live in NY and am looking to buy a dog for my family.
We have small children ,teenagers and an overall lively house. Most importantly, safety is the #1 concern. We heard that golden retrievers are a good fit.

Any advice you can give on how to buy one would be appreciated.

My son (in school in Dallas) has a roommate who works part time for a local farmer who is selling some golden retriever puppies. It seems like they are kept well and he says they are pure bred. He has also taken them to the vet and gotten a clean bill of health.

My Q's are -


Is there anything else that I need to find out? Basically , other than what my son tells me after visiting the farm, I am buying unseen.
Should I get a boy/girl ? What are the advantages to each?
I also read somewhere that I shoudln't get one younger thatn 5 months since I have young kids - should I say no to this?
Also what price should I expect- He's charging ~$300 - is that normal price, or "too good to be true"? I'm confused as I've seen stores sell for $3k and ads for $100. So I'm basically confused.
Any info is appreciated. Thank you.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Welcome! First of all make sure the sire and dam are AKC reg, have all 4 clearances (eyes, heart, elbows and hips) a good website for that is k-9data. http://www.k9data.com/default.asp and http://www.offa.org/ are were all the info should be on sire and dam. It is also nice if the breeder does things with their dogs.. Conformation, agility, obedience, field, etc.

I don't want to sound rude but if he is charging $300 and they were born in a barn.. maybe it is best to look away. Most reputable breeders raise the puppies in the home and charge at least $900. Joey (my dog) was $1000 and he has a full pedigree of dogs with clearances behind him. You could totally get a puppy under 5 months... that would be perfect! Just so you know though, puppies are little landsharks when they are young, so they nibble and bite but it is all *normal* and nothing to be worried about. Check this out ( http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...lden-reputation-fact-giving-them-bad-rap.html ) Sex of the puppy is a personal preference you'll find among members. Many have one of each  I hope this helps. You should also contact the golden retriever club of NY.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Check out the sticky's labelled Puppy buyer checklist and clearances.

Choosing A Golden Retriever Breeder & Puppy - Golden Retrievers : Golden Retriever Dog Forums

Just remember you get what you pay for  A $300 puppy now could cost you much more later.



Have you looked into getting a rescue? They are behavior tested, often already housebroken, and past puppy mischief phase.

Golden puppies are very mouthy- Land sharks- Generally.


How young is young children? Puppies are like have a newborn that can also walk and talk.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

$300 does sound too good to be true. Clearances are the most important thing. It is also good to have a breeder that is active in conformation as that shows that they are working hard to make their dogs adhere to the breed standard. We have members from all over who may be able to suggest reputable breeders in your area.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

If I'm buying a puppy- is it a risk - i.e. not behavior tested. For example might get one that's too hyper, or not friendly?

Also, please explain the advantage to clearance and AKC registered parents?
Lastly- i.e. in the event that he says no, and he's just a farmer who bred some puppies - is that any worse than buying from a rescue center?

thanks again so much for your help, it's very appreciated.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

More info-
The puppy is 8 weeks old
(how long are they land sharks) 
My son says The puppies are well kept in litters.
And his roommate says the farm owner (seller) is a nice/honest person) from working with him.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

cgott42 said:


> If I'm buying a puppy- is it a risk - i.e. not behavior tested. For example might get one that's too hyper, or not friendly?
> 
> Also, please explain the advantage to clearance and AKC registered parents?
> Lastly- i.e. in the event that he says no, and he's just a farmer who bred some puppies - is that any worse than buying from a rescue center?
> ...


Congenital defects and other health problems would be detected as part of the health clearancing process a rescue goes through. You can't detect hip dysplagia in a puppy but you can in a 1 year old dog.

With clearances it gives some level of a comfort that the puppy should be healthy and less likely to have major health issues. If AKC registered you can find out lineage and find out how long the have lived, major health problems, successes/titles, etc.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

cgott42 said:


> More info-
> The puppy is 8 weeks old
> (how long are they land sharks)
> My son says The puppies are well kept in litters.
> And his roommate says the farm owner (seller) is a nice/honest person) from working with him.


The farmer may be a wonderful individual but it does not mean he is being responsible breeding his dog. Breeding is expensive when done properly (health clearances obtained, Prenatal and postnatal vet care for mom, newborn vet care, worming, etc.). 

Worse case the farmer just let Duke mate Duchess then 9 weeks (63 days) later found puppies in the barn when he go up. There they happy little family stayed. Never took mom to vet pre, during, or post pregnancy. Water soaked food given at weeks. Now that pups are weaned he took them to the vet to cover his butt and is not selling them at a rock bottom price- Mostly pure profit for his for little work.

Hopefully, Duchess was seen by the vet before, during, and after pregnancy- Given a warm and safe place for her pups, had them while her owner worried at her side, etc.

Just go into it with your eyes wide open.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Most are over the land shark phase by 1 year of age.


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## Thalie (Jan 20, 2008)

Puppies are puppies; how well bred they are or not, chances are any puppy of any breed is going to use its mouth (full of needle sharp teeth) to investigate, play, and generally interact with the world. Puppy teeth hurt. Then when the puppy teeth fall out and the definiteve ones comes in, young dogs (4 to 9 months) go to a heavy chewing phase that help all the new teeth set in. All in all you can expect plenty of "my dog chews and chomps on anything and anybody" for quite a while. Training helps but natural physical maturation cannot be speeded up that much. Monitoring, re-directing, training, and understaning the why of all that mouthiness, "bityness" helps to get through the puppy stage. Add young kids in the mix and you have to train not only the puppy (who cannot help some of the behavior) but also the kids (who cannot help some of their behavior at first). A puppy is hell on paws for at least a year (except for those precious moments when they are cuddly or sleeping); it will disturb your routine, put holes into clothing, anihilate any item left around (toys - his and the kids', shoes, phones, remotes, anything you can think of and then some more) unless you get into a strict habit of both putting everything away and having a safe place for the puppy to stay while a grown-up cannot supervise.

If the puppies are AKC registered, you can be about sure that you have a Golden Retriever. If they are not, you might have a mix of anything that runs around the farm. I am in no way putting down mix-breed dogs by saying this since I have a country born non-AKC registered Lab girl myself. She looks like a field bred Lab, acts mostly like a Lab (except for the water loving part), is healthy as a horse but lacks papers, clearances and any kind of family history.

Having clearances (hips, heart, eyes, elbows) heighten your chances to have a dog without some medical conditions. It is not 100% sure but just lessens the odds in your favor.

The price sounds about right for a puppy who might or might not be AKC and without clearances. At the very least, the pups at eight weeks should have had a vet visit with a first round of vaccines (lots of people in the country vaccinate themselves, which in itself is not always a problem but might be if it also means the pups have had no vet looking at them at any time). 

To answer your next question, when you get a dog out of a rescue organization, you face about the same situation as you would be if you got this puppy (no clearances, no lineage). However, you would know that the basic vet care had been done and, hopefully, that the puppy would have lived with a family who could give you insight about his temperament (bold, shy, inquisitive, protective of its stuff, etc.).

The fact that you are asking yourself so many questions is good. I suggest, with the limited information at hand, that that puppy is perhaps not the best choice for your family at this time ? Your best option might be an adult dog (from 2 to 4 years old) who might be either a rescue or a breeder's placement. 

Sorry for the length.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

thanks (I appreciated all the info and length)
The dog has been to the vet and received his vaccinations

Sounds like being that my wife is a little apprehensive about a dog in general (never grew up with one) that we should not get a puppy - as its teething/sharp teeth may result in it damaging something (or worse someone). And may lead to an overreaction.

As for pure golden or not- I've attached a pic of the dog my son's roommate bought from the farmer (actually the farmer gave it to him as kind of a worker bonus/perk) . Also the dogs' parents and grandparents live on the farm. Hope it helps.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Hi there, welcome, and thank you for asking so many questions BEFORE committing to a puppy.

I have no doubt the puppy is pure bred, but pure bred does not guarantee health. And does not guarantee that health clearances have been done. Clearances are different from vaccines. It does not sound like these pups have been tested for eyes, heart, etc.

In terms of temperment, a good breeder would actually pick a puppy for you and your family. It's one of the hallmarks of a superiour breeder who is concerned that his/her pups are going to the right home and a home that will not toss them out when they discover how much work a puppy is.

I, too, would go the adult rescue route. A new baby puppy takes a lots of time to housetrain and train behavior-wise. Someone earlier described a puppy as a newborn who can walk and bite. It's true. I lived in a puppy-proofed home for the first nine months of my dog's life. There was NOTHING around she could chew - no throw rugs, no shoes, no TV remotes, no baskets, no toys. That's harder to do with little kids. An adult rescue will likely be housetrained, and some have had some basic obedience training.

Finally, I would not commit to a puppy you haven't met and interacted with. I would recommend looking closer to home.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

Summary of my understanding so far:

The question seems to boil down to 

Puppy vs. 1yr old +
1+ yr old (don't have to go through as much training, teething), calmer
a fellow worker mentioned that puppies should be fine as long as I provide enough teething toys

Breeding issues - Dallas Backyard Breeder vs. Rescue - seems pretty much a wash here, though:
with the Rescue facility I can meet the dog and see its temperment.
** New News** My son just called the farmer and he says the dog and parents (who live on the farm) have clearances and were OFA tested, and will send the registration # to me.
The Dallas breeder also said that I can bring the dog back if there's a problem.
One becoming available at a local shelter is Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Briarcliff Manor, NY | Ready Fri., May 25th

Unfortunately, adding pressure to the decision, is that my son is going away for a few days and there's only a few of the Dallas dogs left. So I feel some pressure to decide today :-(


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Stay away from this farmer! Goldens are supposed to have all clearances, hips, elbows, eyes before breeding. They should have some confirmation and/or obedience titles behind them. Expect quality puppies to cost $1000-$2000. Most of these quality puppies are spoken for by the time they are born if not before. Also, read GRCA's site on puppies: Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA) ALL ABOUT GOLDENS


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

cgott42 said:


> If I'm buying a puppy- is it a risk - i.e. not behavior tested. For example might get one that's too hyper, or not friendly?
> 
> Also, please explain the advantage to clearance and AKC registered parents?
> Lastly- i.e. in the event that he says no, and he's just a farmer who bred some puppies - is that any worse than buying from a rescue center?
> ...


A dog that is AKC registered is not necessarily well bred. The advantages of clearances is that they give reasonable assurance that a dog will not come down with a genetic disease later on. A low cost pup could mean a heartache of veterinary expenses later.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

cgott42 said:


> More info-
> The puppy is 8 weeks old
> (how long are they land sharks)
> My son says The puppies are well kept in litters.
> And his roommate says the farm owner (seller) is a nice/honest person) from working with him.


I'm dealing with a landshark right now! She's got a gold medal in landsharkness!:lol::lol::lol:

My previous dog, a lab mix stayed a landshark for years, although that is not typical. With proper training it should be nipped in the bud prior to 1 year of age.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

cgott42 said:


> Summary of my understanding so far:
> 
> The question seems to boil down to
> 
> ...



Ask to see the clearances or get the numbers so you can search those two websites I linked before. If you're worried about puppy teeth and if you are thinking you may not have time for a new puppy, totally go with rescue! Your saving a life and can get a 1-2 year old who yes may need some work, but could be the dog you and your family have been looking for! Please don't commit to this farmer without proof though... There are many reputable breeders in texas i'm sure, many in NY. if you do decide puppy route that could be better.

edit to add: also yes landshark faze can stay between 6 months or to a year... so you have to be ready for that.


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## MarsNPluto (Jan 10, 2012)

cgott42 said:


> Summary of my understanding so far:
> 
> The question seems to boil down to
> 
> ...


But there is still the process of actually training your puppy to chew his toys and _only_ his toys - it does NOT happen overnight. Puppies play by biting each other, and when they become part of your family, YOU become their new play thing, and therefore their newest and favorite chew toy (as well as anything you hold to some value). Teaching bite inhibition also does not happen overnight, so it's a possibility that blood could be drawn, clothes could be torn, scars could be had. Yes, puppies are adorable, but it is an understatement when we say that they are A LOT of work.

Please do not feel rushed to make your decision. I don't know too much about breeders because mine is a mix, but I think you have been given great advice and should look into things more carefully. If this litter is gone before you decide, don't fret, there WILL be more puppies available, and even more rescues available!

Good luck to you and your family in finding the perfect match!


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## Henry22 (May 8, 2012)

I understand everyones desire here to get very well bred dogs from reputable breeders but how do you know the rescue dog has all those certifications? 

Not everyone wants or can afford (at least up front) a well bred golden which average around $1500. If the buyer is fine not knowing if the puppy is pure bred then I see nothing else wrong really.

You pay $1500 to know that your dog is well bred and has those certifications but if that isnt that important to you then you shouldn't pay that much.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

*Food for thought*



cgott42 said:


> Sounds like being that my wife is a little apprehensive about a dog in general (never grew up with one) that we should not get a puppy - as its teething/sharp teeth may result in it damaging something (or worse someone). And may lead to an overreaction.


It doesn't not sound like your wife is on board for a puppy. Everyone especially adults in the household needs to want the puppy and be dedicated to it's training and care. Who will be the primary person caring for the pup? Basically who will be home with the puppy the most? Will your wish have the small kids at home and the land shark puppy while you are at work. This is a lot of work for a 1st time dog owner especially if you think she may overreact. Any mother will tell you skin kids first over fur butts.



cgott42 said:


> Summary of my understanding so far:
> 
> The question seems to boil down to
> 
> ...


You should not feel pressured and rush to decide. A puppy is a 10-15 year commitment. Til death due you part. The dog not you.

I hope the farmer actually did all the clearances heart, elbow, eyes, and hips. If you post the parents' registered names I am sure the expert here will go over the pedigrees and clearances with a fine tooth comb.

I am personally leery of someone as a breeder who sells their goldens for $300. I paid that over 14 years ago and did have clearances in my pup's parents. 

When I was breeding Yorkies I wanted to meet every member of the family to match the best puppy to the family. You should not have to go half away across the county to get a pet quality golden.

You can have all the toys in the world and puppy will eat the kids toys or teeth on the kids.

You never said how old your younger kids are. As I said before puppies are walking, talking, chewing newborns they need tons of attention to be properly trained and well rounded family members. Great goldens are not born they are molded overtime.

I hope you fond what is best for your whole family.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Henry22 said:


> I understand everyones desire here to get very well bred dogs from reputable breeders but how do you know the rescue dog has all those certifications?
> 
> Not everyone wants or can afford (at least up front) a well bred golden which average around $1500. If the buyer is fine not knowing if the puppy is pure bred then I see nothing else wrong really.
> 
> You pay $1500 to know that your dog is well bred and has those certifications but if that isnt that important to you then you shouldn't pay that much.


IMO if you can't afford the $1500 for a reputably breed golden puppy. You are not ready to have 1. The cost of this puppy is so high because you have some guarantee for what you are getting. Many "greeders" who charge only a few hundred for their pups don't care about the dogs just the money.

You are gambling with a rescue which is why the adoption fee generally only covers the price of the medical care the dog has received. I have bought from breeders and rescued. I had enough money that I could have bought a purebred properly bred pet but instead choice to give an animal that had a rough start a second chance.


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

I agree with Mike about not rushing & I'm all about rescues(the one you found on pet finder looks beautifull)Puppies are alot of fun but also alot of work & the landshark phase is really rough on kids if your wife sn't on board maybe you should take her to meet the Golden girl at the rescue my bet is she'll fall in love they seem to calm down a little by that age(at least Jack did)but not all the way untill thier about two.I promise you'll have your hands full if you get a puppy & your the only one that takes care of it.Good luck & keep us posted.Iknow sometimes the advise on here seems strong but you've come to a place where many of us are obsessed with our Goldens LOL


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

Hi, I will offer some advise based on what I have read here and my personal experiences. I have gone the puppy route and I have also gone the rescue route. There are pro's and con's to both, but based on what I have read, I think a rescue might me a better situation for you. I don't think you mentioned how young your children are, but golden puppies can be very difficult with small children around. The shark and chewing stage is well known, and can last for months. This would be difficult for someone who is not completely on board with having a dog, particularly if your wife will be home during the day, and having to take care of the puppy as well as small children. Also, puppies are a tremendous amount of work (potty training, obedience training). As others have said $300 for a puppy is ridiculously low. Perhaps it will be healthy in the long term--but even with a healthy puppy you should consider the expenses in the first year alone--multiple vaccinations, rabies, spay/neuter surgery, preventative meds, etc., not to mention supplies, food, treats, training classes. Golden's are a wonderful breed and definately great family dogs, but seeing as you are looking at this breed for the first time, I would research with your local golden retriever rescue. They will work to find you the perfect match based on your family lifestyle! Good luck to you in whatever choice you ultimately make and welcome to the forum!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Henry22 said:


> I understand everyones desire here to get very well bred dogs from reputable breeders but how do you know the rescue dog has all those certifications?
> 
> Not everyone wants or can afford (at least up front) a well bred golden which average around $1500. If the buyer is fine not knowing if the puppy is pure bred then I see nothing else wrong really.
> 
> You pay $1500 to know that your dog is well bred and has those certifications but if that isnt that important to you then you shouldn't pay that much.


Buying a puppy from a reputable breeder is very different then rescuing. Yes, When rescuing you can not varify the clearances or anything like that but you are saving a life. You don't go to a rescue for clearances, you go to save and love a dog. When buying a puppy its important to go to reputable breeders so that you are not feeding the BYB's out there who do it for money or who don't do enough knowledge. A litter could result in death for the mom and pups if not done properly... You can totally also go to a rescue for puppies, those of course probably won't have pedigree or clearances but thats the point you are saving them, giving a homeless dog a home and love.


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## monarchs_joy (Aug 13, 2011)

Henry22 said:


> I understand everyones desire here to get very well bred dogs from reputable breeders but how do you know the rescue dog has all those certifications?
> 
> Not everyone wants or can afford (at least up front) a well bred golden which average around $1500. If the buyer is fine not knowing if the puppy is pure bred then I see nothing else wrong really.
> 
> You pay $1500 to know that your dog is well bred and has those certifications but if that isnt that important to you then you shouldn't pay that much.


IMO it's not about paying $1500 to have certifications. It's about paying $1500 to improve the odds that you're not going to pay $5 or 10k later to manage a health issue like dysplasia, heart problems, eye problems, etc. For those of us not breeding and just enjoying our pet, it's an investment in health. Some people are really lucky and have questionably bred dogs that are a picture of health their whole lives until they die at a ripe old age. But I would argue that it's just that - luck. Personally, I could have bought the whole litter of well bred dogs for the cost in vet bills for my poorly bred dogs. 

To the OP, Golden's are great dogs, but they aren't all born that way  We're currently surviving puppyhood and it can be a lot of work. It's very fun to watch the puppy explore the world and learn how to be a well behaved dog, but there are moments when he drives me batty! If you want a Golden that's a little less demanding, you may want to consider a rescue if you haven't already. There are some amazing Golden specific rescue organizations out there that will match you with the dog right for your family, many of which come with basic obedience, fully potty trained, and out of land shark mode. And, some rescues do know the pedigrees behind their dogs. It depends how the dog came in. Rescue is not synonymous with poorly bred. If you do decide on a puppy, I would make sure everyone is on board and knows what to expect. Regardless of what you decide, good luck in your search!


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## Henry22 (May 8, 2012)

All I was trying to say was that not everyone wants or needs a purebred dog. My roommate found a mix on the side of the road and after some training he is a great dog. My parents two purebred labs are great as well. 

It seems to be pretty clear to me that this is not a puppy mill, which I dont support at all, but that its just a guy who bred puppies. Sure its nice to know the parents and have clearances but not everyone wants or needs that and this puppy could be healthy.

Whenever someone comes on here asking about a puppy and its not a $1000+ dog bred by a well known breeder everyone instantly thinks its a bad idea or a puppy mill. Sure, in the majority of cases thats probably true, but not always the case.

Having said all of that, I passed up a free puppy that was suppose to be purebred (but which is most likely not) golden to get on a breeders list for a litter this summer.


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## Suni52 (Jan 18, 2012)

I think enough is being said about clearances and breeding. As a mom of a 2 and 4yo, we bought a dog that was 6mo, and wasn't still chewing on people with her razor sharp puppy teeth. She is 10mo now and she does however still constantly steel all of their toys and try to chew them up before anyone catches her in the act. I'm pretty on top of the situation, but there are plenty of action figures and dolls here with bilateral below the knee amputations. 
Do you think your wife is up to the challenge? Some who aren't used to doggy mentalities may minscontrue a behavior as being naughty when really all it is, is not knowing any better and a need to educate. If that is the case, then you may want a dog who is calmer with a little more experience under their belt. There are some dogs out there who are amazing but their owners have passed away or deployed overseas, or just lost their job and had to move to a small apt that doesn't accept dogs. Just because a dog is a rescue doesn't mean that they aren't awesome. 
It's a hard decision to make, and dogs with clearances do give you better predictability on future medical expenses, but that doesn't mean that you can't luck out with an older dog that is very healthy. It really depends on what you want as a family. 
Good Luck.


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## MicheleKC87 (Feb 3, 2011)

Jamm said:


> Buying a puppy from a reputable breeder is very different then rescuing. Yes, When rescuing you can not varify the clearances or anything like that but you are saving a life. You don't go to a rescue for clearances, you go to save and love a dog. When buying a puppy its important to go to reputable breeders so that you are not feeding the BYB's out there who do it for money or who don't do enough knowledge. A litter could result in death for the mom and pups if not done properly... You can totally also go to a rescue for puppies, those of course probably won't have pedigree or clearances but thats the point you are saving them, giving a homeless dog a home and love.


I totally agree with this after doing my research, BUT....my dilemma is, where do all the BYB puppies and puppy mill puppies go? Who will love them? Do they not deserve the very best too? Is it their fault their owners were irresponsible? Does one person not buying in protest really decrease the possibility that the breeder will breed again? These are the questions I asked myself when I met Lily at the flea market last year. I was planning for a pup and had NO intention of getting one from a BYB. I already had some reputable breeders in mind. I decided to take Lily home after asking myself the above questions. Where would she be now had I not? In a shelter or rescue? In someone's yard on a chain? Possible nursing her first litter of puppies? I wasn't the best owner to my Lucy. There were things i thought i knew but in reality I knew nothing. After coming here and doing research, I know I have become a wonderful owner to Lily. Although I will be going to a reputable breeder for my next puppy, I think it is a personal choice on where someone gets their dog. I just think they should go into it with knowledge of what they are doing and what to expect.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Buddy came from a farmer and his wife. "Backyard greeder"- I love him to death but he does have health and behavioral issues that could have been prevented. No reputable would have ever sold Buddy to his first owner (my uncle)- An out of work, drunken 50 something guy who know nothing about how soft in personality a golden can be. He got Buddy because his lab died and my Lucky was such a good boy. Lucky becoming a golden angel took years of training and patience. He loved everyone because he was raised properly. My uncle kept in a trailer and never even bothered to housebreak him. Let him chew thing up, pee and poop on a tarp in the kitchen, counter surf, run away (he will eventually come back right?)- He was also 25 pounds underweight with flea dermatitis and secondary skin infections. He was also bullied by the lab and pit bull Boston terrier mix he later go. Buddy has separation anxiety and chews himself up when upset as well has gives himself the runs from nerves. I know Buddy's first home should have been a better one. His greeder was all about selling the puppies period. 

No health clearances at all for his parents. He has hip dysplagia according to the vet based on his gait- Have not x-rayed him but he would greatly benefit from hydrotherapy/swimming if I can ever get him in the water. His back legs are bowed from poor nutrition, lack of excercise as a puppy, and poor breeding. He also has moderate to severe allergies and chronic ear infections. New 1-2 new hot spots a week.

He is a very sweet dog but afraid of his own shadow. He has a wonderful life now but is a rescue.


My previous golden, Lucky, came from a reputable breeder. His only health problems were chronic ear infections that actually cleared when he was 10 yrs old and hot spots following a tick bite. No other health problems til he died of liver cancer with mets when he was almost 13- Played fetch for 2 hours the night before he died. No behavioral issues either. His breeder actually covered some of the ear infections for the first 2 years.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

For every story of a back yard breeder dog with health problems, it seems we can match a story of a reputable breeder dog with equal health problems. It's a crap shoot, either way. 

Not every family who has a litter of puppies once a year and sells them is a "greeder," either. 

This subject is beat to death every time someone mentions it - anyone buying from a back yard breeder (I'm sorry, byb is "bring your own bottle" to me) isn't worthy of owning a dog. But take those same puppies to a shelter, let that same person go in and rescue them, and he or she is a saint.

Same puppy, same issues.


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## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

To me, one important difference between a BYB and a good rescue/good breeder is that the breeder AND rescue will take the puppy/dog back if things do not work out. Will a BYB do that? Maybe, but not likely. It's not likely there will be a contract of any kind. A good rescue, just like a good breeder, will help ensure you get the right dog for your family. While a BYB will most likely hand you the dog (or let you pick it out, and most likely the new owner is not an expert in temperament testing).

To the OP, I too think that you might not want to go the puppy route unless your wife is 100% on board. I have 3 small children and we have worked very, very hard for many hours to build what we have with this pup. He is halfway through his second round of obedience classes, and is trained by everyone in the family, even our 3 year old. I personally train with him at least 3x a day. This is time consuming, not to mention the additional exercise he needs. It is a LOT of work. Every minute is worth it, but that is coming from a household where every single person wanted this puppy 100%. I am a previous golden owner; my husband never had a dog. I was able to warn him about the biting, mouthing, stealing, zooming.... still I think he was shocked at the amount of work. We go to every obedience class together, and sometimes our kids go too. My 8-year old had him in a 30 minute stay this afternoon and he did not break once. To get to where we are has taken countless hours, and we have a ways to go. Incidentally, he is 5 1/2 months old and it has been nearly a month since he was land-sharky, if that helps. 

HOWEVER. Just because you get a rescue doesn't mean the dog is going to come home perfectly behaved. Either way you are in for a lot of training, most likely, unless you get lucky. Most likely it will be the same amout of work minus the mouthing and potty training.

You asked about temperament above... this is another reason why, if you do decide on a puppy, that you might want to seek out breeders. Dogs tend to inherit similar temperaments to their parents, generally. We chose our breeder because of the temperaments of the parents (all things being equal with clearances), and our puppy is turning out just like his mama. And her name was "Sweetie" if that tells you anything. She is an angel!


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## Henry22 (May 8, 2012)

laprincessa said:


> For every story of a back yard breeder dog with health problems, it seems we can match a story of a reputable breeder dog with equal health problems. It's a crap shoot, either way.
> 
> Not every family who has a litter of puppies once a year and sells them is a "greeder," either.
> 
> ...


This was what I was trying to say.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Im just posting what I would be doing when searching for a puppy. If you want to support BYB's and have them create more and more and over populate sure. Reputable breeders breed to better the breed, to improve, and to better their lines. Most (and i am not saying ALL) byb's are breeding for money or breeding because their family friend wants 1 pup... there are so many risks to the mom and puppies when breeding and if its not done right anything could happen. Leave it to the professionals. I know there are many dogs on this forum that are not from reputable breeders and no one is dissing them at all... I'm just trying to give advice to someone who is looking at getting a puppy. If you are going to adopt then 100% do it! Adopting is great! I just don't think buying a pup from a BYB is 'adopting' or saving it... IMHO.

edit: this actually the first time in the two years ive been on this forum that i've seen people actually saying this scenario is okay... and I can't believe im one of the only people saying they should do re-search :\


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Why do you think that the lady down the road from me, who had one litter a year, is less capable of taking a dog through the birthing process than a "professional?"
Would I attempt it? Hell, no, but I wouldn't attempt to deliver any kinda baby by myself! Why is it so wrong for someone to want to provide pet quality puppies to the general public? I guess that's what bothers me, the attitude that if you can't afford $1500 for a puppy, you don't deserve one. There's no way my husband would have paid that much for a dog, but I defy you to find a dog better cared for than Max. We don't deserve him?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Puppies are A LOT of work. God knew what he was doing when he decided to make them totally cute and precious. There's no other way they would survive! If there's any doubt in your mind about a puppy being for you, then I would go with an older dog.

And I can promise you, just having a lot of doggy chew toys is not enough to stop problems!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

No one said anything about money. If you can't afford a golden puppy from a reputable breeder then you should turn to rescue and look at adopting a puppy. Not turning to a farmer because funds are low... save up? Puppies cost a LOT more then the initial price. I don't know why the mentality is 'oh i cant afford a pup from a reputable breeder... i guess its kijiji/craigslist/farmer/lady down the street/ etc'... I saved years for Joey.. for his initial cost and for food, toys, vet stuff...


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Money was mentioned early on in this thread, someone actually said that anyone who wouldn't pay that much was not worthy of having a puppy


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

MikaTallulah said:


> IMO if you can't afford the $1500 for a reputably breed golden puppy. You are not ready to have 1. .... Many "greeders" who charge only a few hundred for their pups don't care about the dogs just the money.





laprincessa said:


> Money was mentioned early on in this thread, someone actually said that anyone who wouldn't pay that much was not worthy of having a puppy


I said the above comment and stand behind it. If you can't afford the cost to purchase the puppy you are not ready for 1. Money is needed to provide the best environment for puppy. A rescue is a more economical approach- Many of the first year vets cost are done with and they are already spayed or neutered.

I hope you are not referring to me. I know I did not say anyone who won't pay that much was not worthy of having a puppy.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

Thanks all for the info. I think I've gotten enough opinions info on backyard breeders vs. pros. - so I'd like to direct the thread away from that, and to other Q's needed before adopting:
My impression is that for my circumstances, and based on my son's first hand impression, and roommate's input having worked first hand. The person has been breeding goldens for 25 years. Is going to provide clearances, and is willing to take the dog back.

With that said, the main issue is puppy vs. older. Here it seems that given my wife's apprehension towards a dog, that I would either:


(a) buy the puppy from the Dallas breeder - he has also agreed to train it i during the next month before my son comes home after semester to not bite, and when it got home I would get obedience classes.
OR
(b) buy a golden past it's puppy stage from a shelter. (unfortunately, I might need to go for a mix if that's all that's available)
*Do you think puppy+1 mo training from breeder + obedience classes would suffice - or will it still drive my wife crazy? *



The advantage to the getting the puppy is that it's basically a clean slate, and if trained well could be a better dog than one that's been abused/etc and is at a shelter. (don't get me wrong I want to help the animals at the shelter and when I purchased a dog for my parents some years ago I bought one from a rescue shelter. However here it's more important to get one that has the best chance of working with my family/wife - so that it can have a permanent home and not get sent back.


Another advantage to a puppy is that it's smaller at first so it gives my wife time to acclimate.

*
Here are some dogs available (in no particular order) at local shelters (some are mixes). Let me know your thoughts, and warning signs, breeds to beware of (for my needs - kids), or positives...: (in no particular order)*



Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Briarcliff Manor, NY | Ready Fri., May 25th - still a puppy @ 7mo. old
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Pleasantville, NY | OTIS - collie/golden mix, has been through "boot camp"
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Beagle | Port Chester, NY | Amber -golden beagle mix, has lived with young children before.
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Golden Retriever | Pleasantville, NY | Sam - 4.5yrs old, a golden mix (unknown)
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Great Pyrenees | Beacon, NY | CiCi - new! - 3-4 yr old, Golden/pyrenees mix, writeup says she's calm.
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Rhodesian Ridgeback | Pleasantville, NY | CeeCee This dog is not a golden, it's a Rhodesian Ridgeback/Labrador Retriever Mix, but I was impressed with the video of it staying calm as the baby grabs it's tail, and the write up was very imressive
*just added* http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/22924813 - advantage is small (40lb full grown* - golden spitz mix. though have to find out if barking is an issue


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

cgott42 said:


> Thanks all for the info. I think I've gotten enough opinions info on backyard breeders vs. pros. - so I'd like to direct the thread away from that, and to other Q's needed before adopting:
> My impression is that for my circumstances, and based on my son's first hand impression, and roommate's input having worked first hand. The person has been breeding goldens for 25 years. Is going to provide clearances, and is willing to take the dog back.
> 
> With that said, the main issue is puppy vs. older. Here it seems that given my wife's apprehension towards a dog, that I would either:
> ...



I will post shortly after looking at the dogs.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

From the above dogs is vote in this order.

CeeCee
Amber
Otis
CiCi


The whole family- You, wife, and kids should go to meet the dogs.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

yep, plan to go with the family.
Let me know any comments that you have as to why you prioritized as such.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> Why do you think that the lady down the road from me, who had one litter a year, is less capable of taking a dog through the birthing process than a "professional?"
> Would I attempt it? Hell, no, but I wouldn't attempt to deliver any kinda baby by myself! Why is it so wrong for someone to want to provide pet quality puppies to the general public? I guess that's what bothers me, the attitude that if you can't afford $1500 for a puppy, you don't deserve one. There's no way my husband would have paid that much for a dog, but I defy you to find a dog better cared for than Max. We don't deserve him?


Because it takes more than just "birthing" to produce a litter IMO!!!! Do the people down the road have any idea what PU is? What the longevity in the line is? You should be breeding for good intentions to improve your line not just to breed with fluffy down the road and have no recollection of what health problems fluffy has or generations before him.
:doh:


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

If you know someone who can prevent a teething golden puppy from biting/chewing at 4 months old, they should be training all the puppies in the world! lol 

Puppies bite, they pee in the house, they chew things, they eat things they shouldn't. Their size isn't really relevant (since you thought a small puppy would be easier on your wife) because they grow fast and IMO get worse before they get better. If there is a strong concern about a puppy biting and that would be a deal breaker, I wouldn't get a puppy. You need everyone to be on board with the idea or you'll be creating resentment from your wife if it ends up being something different than she expected. And honestly, a puppy that is not well bred (i.e. bred willy nilly without keeping temperament and health in mind), and has possibly not been socialized properly at the "breeder's" house has the same potential for issues as a rescue. All rescues are not damaged goods. And they are well vetted by the rescue organizations so any issues would be likely known ahead of time (i.e. not good with kids, not good with cats, etc.). 

I would go the rescue route if I were you. You have the potential for a calmer young adult dog, you know what you will be getting and your wife won't be a chew toy for a puppy. JMHO.


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## MarsNPluto (Jan 10, 2012)

Do you live in the city of NY or plan to take trips there with your dog? If so, I probably wouldn't go for Amber, as sweet as she is. Sometimes it's difficult to get older dogs over their fears, especially in an environmental as uncontrollable as NYC.

My votes go for CiCi and Otis. CeeCee is also adorable if you have the patience enough to help her get over her fear of men, or the patience enough to live with it if you can't.

Regarding the puppy, if the farmer were to keep the pup and teach it not to bite for a month, then you take it to obedience, it will be helpful but it will not be a corrected behavior right away - it is a long process. I assume the pup will be about 3 months old when you get him, then from around 4-9 months comes the teething (depending on the dog), and you will still have to be consistent and rigid about bite inhibition and chewing. Then when you think all of that is over... here comes the teenager stage! http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-training/109111-parents-teenage-pups.html

edit to add: any time a puppy or an older dog is rehomed, they will most likely need a refresher in training. With an adopted adult dog already trained, it would be much, much easier. Puppies have minds of their own and they don't understand what is expected of them yet. While the training never really ends for adults, if your family does find a great rescue, more than likely they will be over the silly antics, and would just be so grateful to have a home that they would love nothing more than to please you.

I know you would love to have a puppy, but the biggest concern is if your wife would love to have one? 

Thank you for doing the research to make an informed decision, and I hope everything works out no matter what you decide!


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

Thanks - we live in the suburbs (1/2 acre of land, pretty open), so no problem of hectic NYC living.
What are are they over the teenage stage?


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## MarsNPluto (Jan 10, 2012)

cgott42 said:


> Thanks - we live in the suburbs (1/2 acre of land, pretty open), so no problem of hectic NYC living.
> What are are they over the teenage stage?


Some take longer than others, so it's possible the teenager phase could be over at 1.5 years old (though not likely), or it isn't over until 3 years old. Really depends on the breed, and of course the individual dog. For Goldens, from my research here, it seems they begin to mature at about 2 years old (please correct me if I'm mistaken).


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## MarsNPluto (Jan 10, 2012)

Here is a great article I referenced while raising Pluto: Puppy Development

edit: here is another article I referenced http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html

Keep in mind that it does vary on an individual [dog] basis, but this information was very helpful to me and might be to you.


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## monarchs_joy (Aug 13, 2011)

This will probably be long, but bear with me. How quickly a puppy comes out of land shark phase really depends on the puppy imo. Finn was through it pretty quickly (by about 3 months). Then again, he stayed in the chasing the cat/Evil Knievel phase until recently and has just now started the jumping phase  You have to expect that every puppy will have "their" thing - it may be mouthing, it might be chewing inappropriately, it might be both. I think you have to be prepared to teach them everything, including that it's not okay to pee on the rug, they cannot randomly bite people, cats are not toys, crates are okay places, walking nicely on a leash is not a terrible thing, walls and fireplaces are not acceptable chew toys, and its a terrible idea to eat whatever random thing they find on their walk. They don't come out of the box with manners, but they can learn them. For someone that isn't enthusiastic about having a puppy to begin with though, the process of teaching all this can be annoying. I know that my husband's patience with Finn is shorter lived than mine; I was the one that was all in on a puppy and he was a bit more tentative about it. That said, I know my husband very well and knew he would come around pretty quickly. Three months later, he secretly likes Finn. He's not prepared to confess his undying love out loud, but I see them canoodling in the corner when no ones watching  At 5 months, Finn is great, but we've done a lot of training to get here. 

On a different note, you can get a purebred Golden through rescue that doesn't necessarily have some terrible story. Some of the rescues have quite uneventful stories until they found themselves in rescue because their families moved, owners died, etc. I knew the background of both of my rescue girls, including who bred them. Heck, I had full vet records on both from the time they were puppies! Both came with AKC papers and tons of information. I knew exactly what I was getting in both cases. One found herself in rescue because her original family moved, they didn't want to seperate her from her Golden buddy next door, and gave her to the neighbors. The neighbors then gave her up when they decided that two dogs were too many. She came to me with beautiful manners, fully vetted, and was a picture perfect Golden. My other girl had a normal life with a family that decided that having a dog wasn't right for them. Dad wanted her, mom never did. Dad was traveling for work all the time and mom was very annoyed with having to deal with the dog she never wanted to begin with. She wasn't trained properly, so she had terrible manners. She was vetted, housebroke, and I knew exactly what her behavior issues were. The rescue would have taken back either dog if I ever decided not to keep them for any reason. They were also always there for me to provide advice, referrals, etc. if I ever had questions. 

There are several Golden rescues in NY: 

Golden Retriever Rescue of Central New York
Long Island Golden Retriever Rescue
more rescues

You may want to check out one of those in addition to puppies and the other dogs you found. Good luck in your search!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Contact a golden retriever rescue. The dogs have been living in foster homes, not a kennel. There is a family that can tell you everything under the sun about the dog's personality. The dog may have already been to traiing with the foster parent or previous family.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

MikaTallulah said:


> From the above dogs is vote in this order.
> 
> CeeCee
> Amber
> ...





cgott42 said:


> yep, plan to go with the family.
> Let me know any comments that you have as to why you prioritized as such.


The video of CeeCee shows she is very gentle with kids. It says Amber has prevously lived with kids. Otis just finished training. CiCi is says is outgoing but calm both traits are needed with kids.

You still have not said how old are your other kids. Knowing this would be very helpful.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

thanks, didn't realize I forgot that.
The ones still home are 5,11,14,17

*Update:*
I contacted shelters and filled out applications. Even had an hour phone interview with one.
Nonetheless (as my wife really insists on a puppy) - does anyone know of a reliable breeder where I can get a golden for ~ $900. (not sure I can/would spend that, but it's a possibility) - I'm in the NY, NJ, Conn area.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

One of the rules about puppies is - there are no rules. Each one is different, and much will depend on your diligence and training.

My dog came home at 9 weeks; while she was house trained in 5 days (I took time off work and trained on a very consistent schedule, taking her out once an hour on the hour) she was a BIG biter. Sharp teeth; my hands were bloody for weeks. She was also mischievous and needed constant supervision when she wasn't in her crate. Everything was in her mouth. My home was bare - totally puppy-proofed in the rooms she had access to, even though I was always with her. Easy to do with one adult - harder with a family home full of kids. 

I'm not trying to discourage you - just trying to paint a picture of the reality of a puppy. I had 2 Golden Retrievers when I was growing up - one we got as an adult, one we got as a puppy - and even I wasn't prepared for a puupy. They arrive at your home knowing nothing. They nip and bite at you as they would their litter mates. You can't get angry - you need to teach. And the teaching needs to be constant and consistent. Housetraining is a fulltime job when they first come home. You need to teach them what they can and cannot do. 

There are lots of good books out there. I read a few before I brought home my pup - I thought I was fully prepared - and I STILL wound up calling my breeder, afraid I had gotten the one and only aggressive Golden puppy in the world. She wasn't aggressive - she was a puppy. Thankfully, I had my breeder and a professional trainer who also raised Goldens around me and they were my salvation.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

cgott42 said:


> thanks, didn't realize I forgot that.
> The ones still home are 5,11,14,17
> 
> *Update:*
> ...


I don't know if you will be able find one for $900 from a reputable breeder where the parents' have all recommended clearances. The breeder should be breeding with a purpose other than pet quality dogs. The range for the Tri-State area seems to be $1200-$2,000 with most being $1,500. 

GRCA Puppy Referral then contact the clubs closest to you for guidance about finding a great breeder. The breeder will be a resource to you for years to come. Post a breeders name &/or site and you will get feedback on their from members here.

IMO- If you can't spend $900 to purchase the puppy I would wait then til you could. It costs about $3000 for the first year for a puppy but if it was me I would have $5,000 set aside prior to getting a puppy. Emergencies happen.

As mentioned several time before paying a higher price (over $1000) from a quality breeder will hopefully help you to avoid some of the health problems that are found in this breed. IMO- Pay an slightly higher amount now or pay much more later.

It seems like your kids are in a good age range with the youngest being 5 (in kindergarten?) so that why all kids will be in school and either you &/or your wife will have hours each day to train the puppy with minimal distractions. The kids can and should help to train the puppy, too. It takes village.

Best of luck in your search for your fur family member.


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## Ripley16 (Jan 26, 2012)

We paid 1200$ for Ripley, so 300 sounds too good to be true to me. Her litter was in the middle of what I was quoted from other breeders. I never contacted any BYB or mistake litters, knowing that I wanted a CKC registered Pure-bred dog. I wouldn't recommend buying from that sort of situation, but hey, you never know, it could be perfectly fine, its just not a risk I would be willing to take.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

I took the advice and limited my search to a non-puppy.
I felt ecstatic when I came across an advertisement for a 2year old golden (pure bred w/papers). We agreed on a price, arranged a time to meet, etc and then my wife had MAJOR anxiety. Basically, she has never had a dog, and although doesn't run from one, is not comfortable around one. I think she'd grow to love one, but nonetheless once this became a reality (going to meet/pick up the dog) , and especially since it's not puppy sized - the fears it all kicked in. To complicate matters, some of her best friends (who also have not been exposed to dogs) have told her that if she had a dog in the house that they wouldn't come to the house (you can imagine my feelings on that- but I'll keep them to myself.)

Of course, we've spoken tons, but she's way too scared.
Part of me wants to be the good husband, and move on, but I have a special needs child (on the autistic spectrum, who in addition to that had a lot of trauma when he was young due to a medical condition, which has caused him other psychological issues with TONS of anxiety). He has genuine social and overall happiness issues. I REALLY feel that he would benefit greatly (as well as my other children) if he could have this companion as well as the non-verbal communication, love, etc a dog can offer.
They even have autistic service dogs, but they'd cost too much >$13.5k. And being that I don't have the support of my wife, I don't think I can successfully raise the $ without her support.
Of course, if my wife believed that this would help our son/family she would overcome her fears in an instant, she's an incredible mother. But she doesn't believe that it would help. Some I'm stuck.
As always, any ideas would help


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## Sabine (Nov 10, 2009)

while I am sure your wife is wonderful, but dear god, what a manipulating selfish person. I guess she is the only one in the house? And her friends.....really nice. What a bunch of you know what's. 

Yeah, had to give my 2 cents worth. See if you can bring the dog home for a weekend and go from there.


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

cgott42 said:


> I took the advice and limited my search to a non-puppy.
> 
> Of course, we've spoken tons, but she's way too scared.
> Part of me wants to be the good husband, and move on, but I have a special needs child (on the autistic spectrum, who in addition to that had a lot of trauma when he was young due to a medical condition, which has caused him other psychological issues with TONS of anxiety). He has genuine social and overall happiness issues. I REALLY feel that he would benefit greatly (as well as my other children) if he could have this companion as well as the non-verbal communication, love, etc a dog can offer.
> They even have autistic service dogs, but they'd cost too much >$13.5k. And being that I don't have the support of my wife, I don't think I can successfully raise the $ without her support.


I have a friend with two autistic children and she has service dogs for each of them. They were both rescue dogs that she trained herself, so she didn't have the big up-front costs. The dogs make a big difference in her sons' lives, I hope you and your wife are able to work something out for your family. Good luck.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

Sabine said:


> while I am sure your wife is wonderful, but dear god, what a manipulating selfish person. I guess she is the only one in the house? And her friends.....really nice. What a bunch of you know what's.
> 
> Yeah, had to give my 2 cents worth. See if you can bring the dog home for a weekend and go from there.


 
You couldn't be farther from the truth - if you saw how my wife has sacrificed for the sake of our children, and special needs child in particular - you'd swallow your words.
She's trying to get past her phobia, and it's just that, and sometimes it's more powerful that we can overcome (especially for a purpsoe that she herself doesn't see - as she doesn't think my son would give the dog 2 seconds)
You're not only wrong, but have also insulted me in the process.
Can we please hold off on passing judgments (or at least hold them to yourself) and limit the discussion to constructive advice.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

If your wife has a large phobia of dogs, then I wonder if maybe you shouldn't be looking at either A) a mellower sort of dog, or a smaller dog or B) an older golden retriever, that's going to be less likely to jump on your wife, bark, etc., behave in a way that will frighten her. 

Or another option is to maybe have her find some time to volunteer at an animal shelter with dogs, so she can get more comfortable being around dogs. I would hate for you guys to adopt a dog and then have to return it because your wife wasn't prepared. It would be bad for the dog, you, your wife, and definitely your kids.

Your wife obviously needs some kind of therapeutic help for her dog fear. Whether it's something like volunteering at a shelter or professional counseling, I think that she needs to seek out help before you guys commit to a dog. Good luck!!!

ETA: I want to actually stress the joys of an older golden. And I don't mean like, a golden that's 12 years old, half blind and unable to walk. Even a 5, 6 year old golden still has plenty of years left, and they are SUCH a joy to be around. By that age they've calmed down considerably, they're polite, sweet... Younger goldens of course are sweet and a joy to be around, but many of them can be very rowdy which might be too much for your wife to handle at this stage in the game.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Can you find a way to introduce her to a *well behaved* dog(s) from a local breeder? I know that my old Scout, and now Creed and Bindi are wonderful ambassadors for the breed. They are both mellow and very loving, and have won over a number of people.

Any local therapy dogs who could visit with your son, and your wife could observe? That might help her to see the positive that could come from a dog.

I don't think working at a shelter would be a good answer, as it's only going to take one big unfriendly dog to cement her fears.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Sabine said:


> while I am sure your wife is wonderful, but dear god, what a manipulating selfish person. I guess she is the only one in the house? And her friends.....really nice. What a bunch of you know what's.
> 
> Yeah, had to give my 2 cents worth. See if you can bring the dog home for a weekend and go from there.


Harsh much? From previous posts it does not seem like is manipulative or selfish to me. Not every person is a pet/dog person. She is afraid plain and simple and forcing a dog on her would not be right. She has her priorities- Her kids first and foremost. I think she would be the primary caregiver for both the kids and new dog. I applaud her for being upfront and honest. I truly believe if she thought a dog would be help all of her kids she would find away to put her fears aside. 

IMO- It must be a family decision to get a dog so mom and dad both must be comfortable and signed on to get one. Never force a dog on a person who is not ready. It will not end well.

If your wife wants to overcome because she finds having a dog would benefit the whole family than she can see someone to overcome her phobia.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Have your looked at breeds other than the Golden? With your wife's fear a Golden may not be the best choice as a first time dog.

Cocker, bichon's, pugs, Sheltie, king charles spaniels, poodles, boston terrier, beagle, and corgis- Tend to be good with kids and tolerant plus are smaller so they may not scare your wife as much- Smaller teeth (joking)


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

that's also a good idea - size is a big factor in the fear. (Sheltie's seem like a nice fit, however, their instinct to chase, might be a problem with kids running around)
After that the King Charles Spaniel likes nice too.
I also came across places where they train your dog to be certified therapy dogs - might be affordable...

In addition, I've contacted the seller of the 2 year old golden, and asked to have a weekend trial. This, would also give time to see if there's any therapeutic impact on my children.
In addition, I've contacted my child's therapist and she agrees that it can be very helpful. This might go far in helping my wife to understand.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

cgott42 said:


> that's also a good idea - size is a big factor in the fear. (Sheltie's seem like a nice fit, however, their instinct to chase, might be a problem with kids running around)
> After that the King Charles Spaniel likes nice too.
> I also came across places where they train your dog to be certified therapy dogs - might be affordable...
> 
> ...


I myself have never known a Sheltie with chase drive directed towards kids. Squirrels, mice, rabbits, occasional stray cats- Yes but not kids. It is a possibly though as you point out. Every dog is different.

A good friend of mine got a beagle and she was having trouble with it- Kept chasing her cats, bratty puppy behavior, and would not housebreak. I took the pup for a week when she & her kids went on vacation. I never had an issue with the puppy- Minimal bratty behavior, no accidents, and no cat chasing. The dog was not a good fit for her and her family. When she got back she thought about it for a few weeks- After being with me he was an angel for her for a few days then went back to his previous behavior. It was them not the puppy that was the problem. This puppy needed a leader and they were no putting in the needed work. The puppy was rehomed with a veteran- They adore each other.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> Can you find a way to introduce her to a *well behaved* dog(s) from a local breeder? I know that my old Scout, and now Creed and Bindi are wonderful ambassadors for the breed. They are both mellow and very loving, and have won over a number of people.
> 
> Any local therapy dogs who could visit with your son, and your wife could observe? That might help her to see the positive that could come from a dog.
> 
> *I don't think working at a shelter would be a good answer, as it's only going to take one big unfriendly dog to cement her fears.*



I thought about that as well, but when I used to volunteer I remember being able to pick out what dogs I walked. I'm pretty sure with someone's help she would be able to select a calmer dog to walk. I had no problem doing that.

However, I agree that finding a therapy dog would be better, albeit probably more difficult.

King Charles Cavaliers are soooooo sweet and I instantly thought of them when I read about your wife, but if you choose to go that route be extremely careful when selecting a breeder. KCCS have major health issues. My uncle's dog died at 6 during a routine teeth cleaning - his heart just gave out, poor little guy.  Prior to that he also suffered from seizures.


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## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

cgott42 said:


> In addition, I've contacted the seller of the 2 year old golden, and asked to have a weekend trial.


That is great! Very good idea.

I grew up with a herd of dogs, but the one that always stood out was our golden retriever. I can't envision my childhood without him. I could take or leave the other dogs, lol. My relationship with that dog was truly a gift.

I don't have special needs kids, but my oldest daughter (8 this month) is adhd (medicated). Having our puppy has really brought out something in her I haven't seen before; she is a natural-born leader with him. She is so good with him. She even wants to do agility with him next year. I think they will make quite the team.

My 3-year old "reads" to our golden. He sits patiently while she reads him books. It's really sweet.

I know others have suggested other breeds, but I am still rooting for you to get a golden .


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

cgott42 said:


> that's also a good idea - size is a big factor in the fear. (Sheltie's seem like a nice fit, however, their instinct to chase, might be a problem with kids running around)
> After that the King Charles Spaniel likes nice too.
> I also came across places where they train your dog to be certified therapy dogs - might be affordable...
> 
> ...


What if you and your wife (no kids) went and visited the Golden in HIS environment. First and foremost here is that your wife must be 100% on board and comfortable with the dog. Her fear is her fear and it is valid. It doesn't mean that she can't be helped through it. But take it slowly would be my advice.

If the meeting with the dog goes well, and she is on board, only then would I introduce the kids. I would not bring the dog to your house; I'd bring the kids to him. Any dog is going to be anxious in a new and different house no matter what - so the first few days your dog is home (if this all works out) he will be much more anxious.

I feel for you - but I also feel strongly that your wife can't be forced into this. Take it slow, and if it all works out, it will have been worth the extra time and care.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

You have gotten a ton of great advice here, and it sounds like you ar headed down a good path for you. I will say, you will need your wife to buy in to this as well. It is something you cannot force. Your bet bet may be to go to a dog show and meet various dogs and talk with the breeders that are there. Even if you go the rescue route, it is a great way to see a lot of great dogs and their temperaments, bred they way they are supposed to be. It would also give you a frame of reference for when you meet various rescue dogs.

It is a big decision to get a dog, and a scary one. With patience and education, I am sure your wife will be able to overcome her fears. Your a being a great husband and father taking a rational approach to this...


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

There will still be a problem with your wife's friends even if she decides she can manage it. She might be interested in a class where phobias are confronted gradually until the student is desensitized. That still doesn't address the problem of her friends. All of us on the forum would rather have our dogs. "Love me, love my dog" or stay away!

Word of caution on Shelties: I have seen them 'herd' the children, nipping at their heels. And 2 that I knew for a long time were continually barking at something. Very noisy.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

*Update: *-no new update, I'm giving my wife a few day reprieve w/o having to think/discuss the topic

*New Question *- Although this by far is not the main issue, but one concern is cost (would make things tighter). Just thinking - If we were to adopt the 2yr pure bred golden what are your thoughts on sire-ing him out for a stud fee. The advantages that I can think of are (a) perhaps relieve frustration of abstanence (b) $ to allow us to buy better quality food, etc for him 

Also, one topic forgetting money is it better for the dog to (a) neuter him (b) leave him un-neutered and w/o mating (wouldn't that be somewhat cruel to him) (c) leave him un-neutered and allow him time to mate (sire).
_Note_- I have NOOO knowledge of these things so excuse me if this is something that's a no-no for regular home owners, I'm asking b/c I want to learn.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Neuter, neuter, neuter.
If you adopt a two year old male, please have him neutered, if you get a female, please have her spayed. Unless you are a breeder and know what you are doing, you should NEVER breed dogs. And going by your post, you are not a breeder, nor have you ever owned a dog. 
And no, dogs will not get the sexual frustration that humans do. At least, I have never encountered a dog that needed to or was missing having sex.
Now, getting off of the sex topic. Are you sure you have the finances to care for a dog? The reference to getting money to buy better food, does not make me feel confident that you are ready for the extra financial burden of a dog. And believe me, it can be financially taxing. Having a pet is not cheap, food, vet visits, meds, emergencies, it adds up.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Leave the breeding to the breeders, definitely. Whatever dog you get, let him/her just be a family dog, and focus on that. I would neuter your pet, definitely. Keeping him intact is a lot of work in terms of watching the dog, making sure he never runs away and accidentally ties with a female, and it sounds like you've already got your hands full with 4 kids! 

Best of luck to you, I can tell you really really want a golden, so I hope it works out for you and your family. It's really great to see someone asking all of these questions BEFORE they go out and get the dog.

With regards to food, you don't need to feed a dog "premium" or "holistic" food for him to do well. I feed my dog Purina Pro Plan, which by many people is considered garbage food (it's not), and my dog gets compliments almost daily on her coat. Eukanuba and Iams are also perfectly good foods!


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

cgriffin said:


> Neuter, neuter, neuter.
> If you adopt a two year old male, please have him neutered, if you get a female, please have her spayed. Unless you are a breeder and know what you are doing, you should NEVER breed dogs. And going by your post, you are not a breeder, nor have you ever owned a dog.
> And no, dogs will not get the sexual frustration that humans do. At least, I have never encountered a dog that needed to or was missing having sex.
> Now, getting off of the sex topic. Are you sure you have the finances to care for a dog? The reference to getting money to buy better food, does not make me feel confident that you are ready for the extra financial burden of a dog. And believe me, it can be financially taxing. Having a pet is not cheap, food, vet visits, meds, emergencies, it adds up.


I'm budgeting for $1k/year. My question, wasn't that I wouldn't pay the $ needed - he'll probably get very spoiled - , but rather that not having to think twice what brand I'm buying due to things being tight. Just would make it easier.
Yes, I'm in no way a breeder, I (naively) thought you just rent your dog to a breeder (for a fee) and that's it (i.e. no special breeding, know-how needed on my part, other than caring well for the dog (I'm not concerned that he'd be very spoiled)
regarding a non-neitered dog gettign frustrated - are you sure, as my dog (as a kid) used to (embarrassingly so) mount peoples' (e.g. guests) legs = was very embarrassing?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Okay, understand. Yes, I am sure. There are even neutered dogs humping anything in sight. In my humble opinion, has nothing to do with sexual frustration.


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## MarsNPluto (Jan 10, 2012)

My uncle's dog, who is about 8 years old, humps everything in sight, and he is neutered. I don't think it means sexual frustration, but perhaps the dog was not taught that humping humans is not warranted. When they are puppies, sometimes it's how they play. If it isn't nipped in the bud when they are younger, it can become habit and maybe a gesture of dominance.


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## Isobel (Dec 11, 2008)

Jumping in a bit late on this topic but I thought I'll add my two penneth
There are advantages to getting a puppy - you have a blank canvas that you can train and mould to your lifestyle. 
We got a one year old toilet trained golden from a breeder who said they couldn't keep her anymore (she is currently our second golden) as they couldn't cope with the number of goldens they had. Apart from knowing to go outside to pee, she didn't really know a lot else and I had to train a one year old what she should have learnt at 8 weeks old, socialisation and the lot inc obedience. She's not 100% with other dogs still as she can be a bit nervous and unless the dogs are friendly and confident with her, she's not happy. She's fine with people though.
Our first golden was from a Uk KC registered breeder who did everything right with health tests etc and we got her from a lovely large litter and she is the most loving golden retriever and as she saw other dogs from 8 weeks old she's very well behaved and trustworthy.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

cgott42 said:


> *Update: *-no new update, I'm giving my wife a few day reprieve w/o having to think/discuss the topic
> 
> *New Question *- Although this by far is not the main issue, but one concern is cost (would make things tighter). Just thinking - If we were to adopt the 2yr pure bred golden what are your thoughts on sire-ing him out for a stud fee. The advantages that I can think of are (a) perhaps relieve frustration of abstanence (b) $ to allow us to buy better quality food, etc for him
> 
> ...


Just because a dog can reproduce does not mean he should. Having an intact male is a responsibility many pet owners should not have- Accidents happen.

Lucky was not neutered til 10 when he got "stud" tail and needed to be neutered for his health- He was never breed and never exhibited negative behavior. I did neuter Buddy as soon as I got him he was about 2.5 years old and a runner/escape artist- I did not want to risk him finding trouble.

There are simple ways to save money to get better food for your dog. Instead of eating out- Eat in and save the difference. Rent a movie and save the difference. Etc, etc, etc. Pimping your dog out is not the way to go- IMO 

It also costs money to maintain a healthy stud he must have healthy clearances gotten and regular testing done. That itself could a few thousand dollars which if money is tight you may not have.

My female Yorkies all hump an stuffed lab puppy but never anything else- It is funny and I allow it. When people come over I hide the stuffed animal. TheY do it when bored especially on rainy days. Lucky never humped and neither does Buddy- It would not be allowed.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Please please please do not breed. Ever.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I agree with what everyone else said, please neuter!


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

thanks, I understand - no breeding.
But why neuter - seems kinda cruel to him.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

So would be adding to the unwanted pet population if he ever got away and found trouble.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

If you can make sure you are 100% responsible with having him intact then you could do it. You have to make sure he could never get out and escape and take many many precautions to make sure he never got in contact with a female in heat. If you think you're up to that huge challenge, then you can leave him in tack. If not.. neutering is the way to go.. its not 'cruel' and you are being a responsible pet owner


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Jamm said:


> If you can make sure you are 100% responsible with having him intact then you could do it. You have to make sure he could never get out and escape and take many many precautions to make sure he never got in contact with a female in heat. If you think you're up to that huge challenge, then you can leave him in tack. If not.. neutering is the way to go.. its not 'cruel' and you are being a responsible pet owner


:appl::appl::thanks:

I knew since Lucky was 100% reliable off leash- He could be trusted with 100% supervision outside. 

Buddy on the other hand can escape the house by opening the door to get out and undo his own chain. He also have horrible recall so no off leash activity for him. Since he is also a runner-Neutering was the responsible thing to do. He was fine and is still very popular with the ladies. My Yorkies- All females just adore him. When I take him to the dog park the dogs all adore him and he does have a few girlfriends there too. He would not be able to play with some of his girlfriends if he was intact because they are unspayed show dogs.

Lucky never got to have girlfriends who where unspayed since he was intact. Buddy has a much more social life than Lucky ever had with other dogs.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

toliva said:


> That is great! Very good idea.
> 
> I grew up with a herd of dogs, but the one that always stood out was our golden retriever. I can't envision my childhood without him. I could take or leave the other dogs, lol. My relationship with that dog was truly a gift.
> 
> ...


Awww how precious! Children and goldens, what a lovely combination.  There is a chance that our son might be somewhere on the autism spectrum since he is behind in his speech. We are getting him tested in August. His relationship with Mercy is a bit rocky right now due to her jumping on him and mouthing on him, but I just know they will be the best of friends later on. If need be, I will train Mercy to assist Joshua. I love it when children read to dogs. I was going to join the Read program several years ago with my previous therapy dog, but then I got married. They have read programs in the area where I now live with my husband. I will aim towards Mercy and I being a part of that someday.


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## Donnalsoule (Jul 10, 2011)

Just two quick comments: I have read that Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have the personality of Goldens, just in a much smaller body. It might be a good option since you would get a dog with the personality you like but it might be less intimidating for your wife. Also, I wanted to mention that my son was born with Asperger Syndrome (on the autism spectrum) and Bipolar Disorder. We had two dogs while he was growing up, a bischon and a golden. He was very bonded with his bischon and loved to be able to cuddle her on his lap. She was a huge help in reducing my son's anxiety and loneliness as a child.


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## Rockypointers (May 17, 2012)

I wouldn't say anything that hasn't been said already, but here are my two cents: $300 is a good price, but to repeat an earlier thought...you get what you pay for. No disrespect to anyone intended. We paid 5x that for our English Golden from a breeder who had AKC papers for her parents as well as all the vet documentation, etc... You don't need to spend a fortune to get a pup, but use caution.

Lucy is our current and first family dog, but I had a Golden when I was younger. He was the best dog in the world, calm disposition (letting the little kids play on him), very loyal and just full of love with not a mean bone in his body. We decided to get Lucy based on the above and she has proved to be an awesome reminder of what I have been missing all those years.

If you're looking for a guard dog....look for another breed. Your golden will eventually become everyone's dog and those "Allstate" commercials with the guy holding a bone given to him by the thieves is surely a Golden. It won't matter how big your home is, your Golden will most likely be by your side, underfoot or near you the entire time.

A Golden will provide many years and many memories for you and your little ones. Good Luck and keep us posted!


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Donnalsoule said:


> Just two quick comments: I have read that Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have the personality of Goldens, just in a much smaller body. It might be a good option since you would get a dog with the personality you like but it might be less intimidating for your wife. Also, I wanted to mention that my son was born with Asperger Syndrome (on the autism spectrum) and Bipolar Disorder. We had two dogs while he was growing up, a bischon and a golden. He was very bonded with his bischon and loved to be able to cuddle her on his lap. She was a huge help in reducing my son's anxiety and loneliness as a child.


I had a Bichon growing up. He as a great dog and very patient with every child he met.


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## cgott42 (May 15, 2012)

Donnalsoule said:


> Just two quick comments: I have read that Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have the personality of Goldens, just in a much smaller body. It might be a good option since you would get a dog with the personality you like but it might be less intimidating for your wife. ...QUOTE]
> 
> thanks, that's a good idea.
> Nonetheless, after much talk (at least at the moment) a dog is totally out of the question.
> ...


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