# Breed standard prior to 1990 (US)



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Stacey - have you read Jeffrey Pepper's book? 

https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Retri...8-1&keywords=jeffrey+pepper,+golden+retriever

This doesn't answer your specific question about how the breed standard changed in 1980, but what I liked about Pepper's book is he goes through the breed standard and discusses what each section really means - particular in the interest of both function as a retriever and also in the show ring. 

I bought the kindle version - and thought it was really interesting overall.

There's also another book out there "The first century of the golden retriever in the show ring" which supposedly is going to be made available on Amazon. I'm still waiting... 

I always thought there was not a huge difference or change in the breed standard... other than color.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I was interested because I thought the US standard is much more detailed than the UK or Canadian version. I thought maybe it was given more detail in the 1980 or 1990 version (whichever year it was revised). Just curious which areas they felt needed more detail? How similar the old standard was to what the UK and Canadian versions are. That would be nice to know too. I was just interested in historical versions overall. I know on the 2016 GRCA National facebook page, they are posting previous show dogs from the past. Many are from the 60's. It's really fun. I would love to read the old standard and look at the dogs from that era, then read the current standard and see how it applies to the current show dogs. Then see how dogs from either era would do against the opposite era's standard. Just a fun exercise. I'll always just be a student of breed standard, never a practitioner. Seems the more I learn, the less I know.


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## Dahne Yeager (May 26, 2016)

Hi Guys:
I'm not into anything as inclusive as "Standards" or what breed definitions are important for the show ring but I have a question that maybe you who are familiar with the standards can answer. I adopted Nikki last month and we are bonding wonderfully. Nikki is a pure Golden and her papers came with. The thing is...Nikki is RED! A "Golden" red for sure but she is more red than anything else. Looking at the photos of the other dogs on this site I haven't seen any other dogs with her coloring. I'm unable to post pictures of her simply because I don't know my computer operations well enough yet. I suppose that this is a silly question to ask but I'm really curious about it. I have to say that she's absolutely beautiful and everywhere we go she is commented on. I'm just not saying that because she's mine either. I noticed in a previous post that color was mentioned in the changing of standards so I thought that I'd ask someone who knew these things. 
Thanks for your patience with a newby...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dark reddish gold is an acceptable color... 

The acceptable colors of golden retrievers are as shown in the attached pic... the two breed dogs at the top I think show the darkest on one end and lightest on the other end that you will see doing well in the ring. 

Reddish gold is probably most common color in many areas for family pets (not bred for show).... if you look at the pic below - the four dogs in the middle (starting from the 3rd dog from the left) are most common in the breed rings.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I have it- I will try to figure out how to get it to you. I can scan it tomorrow.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Dahne Yeager said:


> Hi Guys:
> I'm not into anything as inclusive as "Standards" or what breed definitions are important for the show ring but I have a question that maybe you who are familiar with the standards can answer. I adopted Nikki last month and we are bonding wonderfully. Nikki is a pure Golden and her papers came with. The thing is...Nikki is RED! A "Golden" red for sure but she is more red than anything else. Looking at the photos of the other dogs on this site I haven't seen any other dogs with her coloring. I'm unable to post pictures of her simply because I don't know my computer operations well enough yet. I suppose that this is a silly question to ask but I'm really curious about it. I have to say that she's absolutely beautiful and everywhere we go she is commented on. I'm just not saying that because she's mine either. I noticed in a previous post that color was mentioned in the changing of standards so I thought that I'd ask someone who knew these things.
> Thanks for your patience with a newby...


I adore really dark dogs. I'm sure she's not darker than the dog on the far right of the group photo of acceptable shades of golden posted above. Lucky you to have a dark girl!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

These dogs are all littermates. The one on the left did extremely well in the show ring and finished her championship in record time. She's very dark. The pup to the right of that dark girl is very light.


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## bethlehemgolden (Aug 2, 2014)

I'm not 100% when these are set in place,but here is a very good description of our breed. 

http://ausngrc.org/assets/23114goldenretrieverbse.pdf


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I've lived with several golden at a time since literally birth, and my earliest family ones right through the dog I took to college as my first dog all my own and through my whole 20's were sons and grandsons of Quar- the last CH/AFC in like 50 years. Pedigree: Dual CH AFC Tigathoe's Funky Farquar OS DDHF FDHF . Joplin lived to be almost 16, and he was my constant companion with what I think of as the prototypical golden traits and looks.

Although the breed standard changed, the quintessence of the golden has not. It is human nature to exaggerate what wins and succeeds, so at the extreme edges the field dogs are more fieldy, the conformation dogs are more typee, the agility dogs are more go go . . . but good goldens are still the same in essence. 

I think if you want to excel and be one of the top ten golden in anything on a national level, you might have to walk a ways down the road to a golden with a bit more characteristics of his/her venue than in 1990, but for anything else the same golden in 1990 can serve you just as well as the golden in 2016. I think of my Finn who I lost at over 13 years this year( miss him so!). He was my pet when I taught in boarding school and came to classes and coaching, he hunted during duck season with my grandfather avidly, and he easily earned his TDI Therapy Dog, CGC CGCA TT- those lovely pet titles. He had idiopathic epilepsy that came down through his pedigree, so no real competing and never bred, but was otherwise a healthy dog into his teens. Finn looked different ( old fashioned) but wasnt very different in livability, intelligence, retrieving and water ability etc from my close companion now Mystic who just went and did a CD leg having never practiced outside bc he is a good egg and a calm helpful cheery dog- like every golden we had in the 80s, 90's, 2000's. 

I will say I had one dog over a lifetime with a terrible temperament- that has been a problem in golden forever, and something I think is the worst sin in a golden retriever. I think the golden of today is equal to the golden of yesteryear- but I think there is, always has been, and will likely be in the future, edgy & aggressive golden bred bc they excel in a venue who should not be based on aggression which has no place in the breed whichever standard you chose.

It was hard then and it is hard now to get the whole package in one dog and prove it at the very highest level. All the health clearances, a prepotent producer who can pass on his/her traits, a great hunting dog, a great conformation dog, a fantastic temperament with puppies, human kids, all other dogs male and female, and a pedigree to back it up that the dog isn't a fluke but likely to be typical of a line, program or kennel. That was never easy and isn't easy now. It is easy though to get a nice example of the breed who has good structure, retrieving and water ability, and a cheerful loving temperament- easy now and easy then.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I've lived with several golden at a time since literally birth, and my earliest family ones right through the dog I took to college as my first dog all my own and through my whole 20's were sons and grandsons of Quar- the last CH/AFC in like 50 years. Pedigree: Dual CH AFC Tigathoe's Funky Farquar OS DDHF FDHF . Joplin lived to be almost 16, and he was my constant companion with what I think of as the prototypical golden traits and looks.
> 
> Although the breed standard changed, the quintessence of the golden has not. It is human nature to exaggerate what wins and succeeds, so at the extreme edges the field dogs are more fieldy, the conformation dogs are more typee, the agility dogs are more go go . . . but good goldens are still the same in essence.
> 
> ...


Great post Jill. We were blessed yesterday with a visit from little River and she and Grady had a blast in the swimming pool. She had vaulted in several months ago (much to Katie's surprise) but yesterday was really swimming. She and Grady are great pals. So fun to be around such smart, fun dogs.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Great post Jill. We were blessed yesterday with a visit from little River and she and Grady had a blast in the swimming pool. She had vaulted in several months ago (much to Katie's surprise) but yesterday was really swimming. She and Grady are great pals. So fun to be around such smart, fun dogs.


How exciting Grady got to meet River:smile2:/ The you ones really keep us on our toes!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> How exciting Grady got to meet River:smile2:/ The you ones really keep us on our toes!


He loves her to bits!! She is such a super little girl.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Since Quar ran field trials and spent time in the show ring, both worlds have changed dramatically. I've seen videos of field trials from back in that time frame. They were much simpler and most hunt test dogs of today could run a good field trial 50 years ago. Today our show grooming has become a big ordeal to get a dog groomed and keep it groomed. The coats required for a golden to do well in the show ring are far beyond what they were 50 years ago. What we face with our split in the breed has happened in virtually all the sporting breeds. Even chessies the one holdout are seeing a split begin to divide.

We've bred golden retrievers for different reasons. Show dogs needed X criteria and field trial dogs needed X criteria. Not many of that criteria is the same. Every time I purchase a new golden puppy I sort through pedigrees trying to find that right dog. So many options these days in a variety of breeding programs!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Today our show grooming has become a big ordeal to get a dog groomed and keep it groomed.


Stacey - it really isn't that difficult though if you have a moderate dog. I think some people imagine the worst because they deal with spay coats all the time in their practices or with their own dogs. Or they purchased dogs from breeders who primarily breed for excess coat. Not all show dogs are like that or have incorrect coats. 

The very worst coat that I've seen as far as incorrect texture was on a spayed little field bitch. This girl's coat was very cottony - literally you could see the mats forming. Her owner has had a very difficult time keeping that coat from matting up and it really is tough to keep brushed out, especially when doing field work. Because of her experience with this dog's coat - she's made various comments about how she is glad her dog does not have as much coat as show dogs. And I'm guessing she's comparing how much work she does with her dog's coat and imagining how much worse it would be if her dog had a show coat that could not be clipped, etc.... 

The reality though is I'm going to guess that a lot of people out there have had similar experiences like mine... our dogs go running and swimming and pick up burrs and sticks and so on.... but grooming is pretty much minutes of a day, if that. 

A full bath and dry and touch up grooming even may take about an hour per dog. But that's not a daily or even a weekly thing. I'll admit that as I'm taking the next month off of showing - I'm not worrying about drying my show boy after he gets the weekly bath. And he gets weekly baths not to protect the coat or so on. It's because he gets filthy after everything he does in a week and especially on a weekend when we've been out all day swimming and hiking. He comes home smelling like the river or pond he swam in.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Going back to the differences in the breed standard, there is only more detail in the 1990 version than the prior version. No major changes. I had anticipated more differences than there were, given how much change here has been in golden retrievers in the show ring in the last 50 years.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Alaska7133 said:


> From what I can tell, the US golden retriever breed standard was re-written in 1990. Does anyone have a copy prior to 1990? The current breed standard is very detailed. Much more so than the UK or Canadian breed standard. I've asked a lot of people and nobody seems to have an old copy of the breed standard. I'm interested in comparing the two and seeing what the differences are. I'll be honest, I feel like it was re-written to favor the later style of conformation dogs, which are very different looking dogs than conformation dogs prior to about 1972. I'm curious what changes in the breed standard were made to accommodate for those changes. Anyone out there with an old copy?


I have a copy but not sure how to get it to you. Suggestions?


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## Elsa Cholla's Mom (Feb 8, 2016)

> The reality though is I'm going to guess that a lot of people out there have had similar experiences like mine... our dogs go running and swimming and pick up burrs and sticks and so on.... but grooming is pretty much minutes of a day, if that.


Thanks for saying that Megora. I wondered, because I read about how much grooming a Golden needs before getting one, and I haven't found that to be the case at all! Elsa drys faster than any other dog I have ever had, dirt pretty much falls off, and she's a very clean and smell free. I am so glad she isn't that fluffy at all, she was built for the outdoors and it shows :grin2:
I keep wondering about the standards vs the actual dogs that get the conformation marks myself. Seems to me Goldens are getting bigger, not just more coat. I rarely meet a Golden that fits the weight standards anymore, at least not on the street. They all seem to be over 70 lbs for females and up in the 80's for males.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

puddles everywhere said:


> I have a copy but not sure how to get it to you. Suggestions?


Thank you! I received a copy of the one prior to the current breed standard from another GRF member. What is the date of yours?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Megora,
I think you've never been around a well bred field golden. I have a very nice boy with a pedigree packed with FC-AFC titles. I also have a show bitch with a pedigree packed with dogs from the show dog hall of fame and GRCA national winners. When I take them swimming there is no comparison. My field boy dries so much faster for many reasons. His coat is thinner, shorter and less dense. His repeals water beautifully. I don't worry about him being damp for any length of time and getting hot spots. My bitch also repels water, but I'm very careful to not put her back in her crate with any dampness due to the possibility of hot spots from being damp. Lucy's fur is beautiful and correct, but my field boy is the coat I enjoy taking care of. Let's face it, for a field dog, the trimming of ears and toes is about it. A show dog is way more involved. My field boy also doesn't pick up and retain twigs, grass, seeds, etc. like my show bitch does. Lucy's fur is pretty nice, but Riot has way better fur for managing. Lucy doesn't get matts in her fur, but neither does my field boy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think you've never been around a well bred field golden.


Haha.... I've been around plenty, Stacey. A lot more dog people to meet on both sides, definitely. Not every dog has a horrendous spay coat, definitely. 

Read my comment again in the context that it was meant, please. I honestly think that people complaining about stuff are basing their complaints on what they imagine other people are going through or deal with.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Elsa Cholla's Mom said:


> I keep wondering about the standards vs the actual dogs that get the conformation marks myself. Seems to me Goldens are getting bigger, not just more coat. I rarely meet a Golden that fits the weight standards anymore, at least not on the street. They all seem to be over 70 lbs for females and up in the 80's for males.


My Bally (male) is a specialty winning Grand Champion 23" tall weighs an even 65 lbs w/ very moderate working coat. 
If it's a good dog presented well to good judges, it will win. All the other stuff doesn't matter.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree, My puppy Sayer just went Best Of Breed over specials x 3 plus a group 2 from the 12-18 class, and she is 58-60 lbs with a wash and wear coat. My specialty winning/ top twenty dog Mystic 74 to 76 lbs - he looks bigger with a handler who is extremely petite, and he looks medium with a handler who is tall. He has nice breed type and movement, and so may be shown to a wide range of judge at any time with a fair chance to earn a placement - no special handpicking needed. On the other hand I DO also have one of those big dogs lol, a my GCH bitch Lush is bigger than Mystic, weighing in at 76/78 lbs. She is a flashy dog with lovely movement, but she must have her judges chosen with thought, as she appeals to a specific set of them and is too much bitch for some. It is actually much easier to show a golden of the correct size as the standard dictates. If you get too big, it is difficult. If you get weedy or not enough substance it is difficult in terms of good bone, but the height/weight delineated by the standard worKS right for the conformation ring. Added to that I have seen judges wicket a dog and dismiss him because he was way too big, and several times I have seen judges wicket small dogs. I couldn't show Sayer right away at 6 months bc she was too small to meet the standard. It is easiest to show a golden who doest stick out as either big or small, as long as there is good bone, good angulation and good spring of rib.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

At least we don't have show labs. Which is a whole other subject.


I've had a couple of friends ask me if I'd be interested in a show golden from their kennels. I had to say no, not now. I'm really having fun watching ringside right now and not having to show. It's nice to enjoy the beauty and none of the work. I do miss dressing for summer shows that make me think of a garden party with no fancy hats! 


All of you showing this summer enjoy the outdoors before the shows have to move back indoors.


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