# Force to Water: Pros & Cons



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I need some opinions and advice on this exercise.

Scout--while a confident, happy, and eager swimmer will hesitate at times by edges of water. It's just the getting in part--and it is not every time. One day she'll dive in, the next she'll slow down at the edge and almost stop--and it appears almost like it might be confidence issues at those times. This is one of the things she does that is why I feel like mentally she is still very immature--one days she is bold, the next she finds herself feeling incapable. I am thinking a little pressure might be the solution to give her the kick that 'yes you can do this.'

...but I am worried about fall out in talking with other trainers. I am worried that instead of giving her the extra push, it may make her more anxious around water. That is the last thing I want.

Then I have days like today. I went to a pond that is about 50 yards long and decided to set up a pile at the end and see if I could send her to it. I had a feeling she could do it. I tied her up, walked around, and placed the bumpers telling her 'dead bird' as I dropped them. Came back around, and she was ready to go! Her whole body was leaning forward and focused, and she dove in the water when I told her she could go. It was awesome! However, shortly after that first retrieve she started to get iffy about entering the water. 

This water also happens to be the same one where I ruled out entering her in the early hunt tests. If a mark was thrown at the end of it on the shore, Scout would pace the shore and cry. My reading was that she really, really wanted to get it but did not have the confidence that she could swim that far. A lot has changed since then, and as the weather has warmed up this has not been a problem anymore. Shoot, she swam to a pile several times today in that pond!

So, thoughts? Her attitude about diving in today tells me I need to be ready to push her now. However, her iffy water entrances and some confidence things make me afraid that I will ruin my dog.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I am no expert at all but is there someone that could go with you to praise her on the other side sort of cheer her on to help build confidence. I know this works in agility and flyball others cheering and sort of pushing the dog with lots of praise.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

In the end I think you just have to ask what it is you want from the dog.

If you are satisfied with just getting the bird or bumper... then dont worry about it. If you want it done reliably and with "style" as they call it, then you ought to consider a water force program.

I used Evan Grahams DVD lesson to water force Amber. When I was done, there was no hesitation to hit the water. Your dog will need to be force fetched and collar conditioned prior to the start of this. I would not hesitate to put any of my competition dogs (trial or hunt test) through this program. It is fairly simple and this is the right time of the year to do it!

Randy


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I always force to pile over water. But I force to pile first on land then take it to water so there is no confusion about what I want.
What Randy said, CC and FF and force to pile are in place first.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

If you are going to go onto Senior I think it is necessary. Some people may get lucky and never run into a problem and cover water force during water T/swimby, with both of my dogs it was well before that when they showed me they needed water force. 
I would ask you, if she were to hesitate at the water's edge, and you were to do NOTHING, what would happen? Would she eventually work it out and go get the bumper, or would she give up and come back to you? 
I know you're working on water-T, what stage are you at?
Remind me again, what kind of force you did on your land T? I know some heel-nick-heel for bugging, also did you do force en route?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I did FTP and I did force en route. 

If I were to say nothing, she generally figures it out. At our hunt test, this is what happened. There were decoys off to the side and near the bank. She got in the water, slowed down, and swam over to check them out. At that point, she turned to look at me because she got sidetracked. I could not handle, so I did nothing. She was determined not to give up, and eventually figured out that she needed to turn around and keep going. In practice, I generally help her by saying back which I know might be the kiss of death (create popping). As far as the test...partly my bad for never training with decoys.

With water t we are just doing a back pile. I have stopped her a few times though not many. She's either shown to be real responsive and turn and tread water, to needing a 'sit' command and swimming forward a little. It's a work in progress.

I am just really concerned about ruining it--so someone tell me it will be alright! I have a friend who has a SH that said she doesn't know if she'll do it again because her dog has never been the same around water.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> I have a friend who has a SH that said she doesn't know if she'll do it again because her dog has never been the same around water.


Then she somehow tied the correction in with the water. That's why I do it first on land then over the water. I try to make sure the water isn't the issue. It's the momentum that I want. Try to get some help with this one if you are not sure. Timing is everything here.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> Then she somehow tied the correction in with the water. That's why I do it first on land then over the water. I try to make sure the water isn't the issue. It's the momentum that I want. Try to get some help with this one if you are not sure. Timing is everything here.


Exactly -- you have to have good timing because if you either give the correction in the wrong spot or are inconsistent, the dog completely will not understand and it will make it worse. However if you're timing is good and you are consistent, it will help IMMENSELY and you will realize you couldn't go on without it.
I would also seek professional help on this. 

<<In practice, I generally help her by saying back which I know might be the kiss of death (create popping).>>

You mean on marks or blinds??

To me, the stopping at the water's edge is a different animal than popping en route. 

If you want to call me I can tell you what I did with my guys as both dogs were different. PM me and I can give you my phone #. Too much to type out!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

There are significant upsides to water forcing. Downsides are realized only when you don't know how, and do it wrong or unfairly. I say this at every seminar I give regarding water force: "A properly water forced dog tends to yield water-oriented responses to corrections made around water." 

If you will have done the work well, you will have far fewer corrections over your dog's career to keep him honest in water, and going when sent. I do it with each dog...immediately before Swim-by.

EvanG


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