# Where's GoldRocksMom?



## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't think its fair to 'hi-jack' the timm's thread. I thought I was being helpful and things just moved on from there... Sorry timm. If anyone wants to further discuss "where's GoldRocksMom" and other current events please do it here.

I would like to provide for public inspection the original article that got me started on MY search for the truth...



Flint Journal, The (MI)



January 10, 2004 

*Breeder of dogs accused of abuse* 
*Woman denies harming animals* 

Author: Sally York; JOURNAL STAFF WRITER 

Edition: THE FLINT JOURNAL FIRST EDITION
Section: LOCAL NEWS
Page: A01
Dateline: TYRONE TOWNSHIP 






Index Terms:
LOCAL - News(A1)GENERAL NEWS 





Article Text: 

Tyrone Twp. - A woman who says she trains dogs to help the disabled is now under investigation for animal abuse and neglect. 



"Now that we've opened this up we see there's a lot below the surface," said Livingston County Animal Control Director Anne Burns. "We definitely have to investigate." 


Kimberly Schulz, 38, who with her husband, Steven Schulz, sells golden retrievers for $1,800 to $4,000 through various Web sites, denied mistreating her animals. 


"My dogs are healthy and well taken care of," Kimberly Schulz said. "I don't understand why they are doing this, but it's going to stop. You can't just go around slandering people." 


Schulz made a tearful plea at a recent Township Board meeting to be exempt from a local ordinance that requires owners of more than three adult dogs to obtain a kennel license. 


She doesn't board them, she said, adding that she breeds and trains them to be service dogs or companions. 


Officials say the dogs have been chained outside in the rain, eight were donated to the Leader Dog School for the Blind without training and Schulz has lied to authorities about how many dogs she has and how long she has lived in the township. 


Schulz responded that one lost dog was chained briefly during a drizzle, the donated dogs were well-trained and she never lied. 


Burns said one of her officers found golden retrievers chained to vehicles on the Schulzes' Gordon Road property during a downpour last fall. A warning was issued. 


"I told (Kimberly Schulz) she had to get a kennel license," Burns said. 


More recently, Burns found out the Schulzes donated eight 1-year-old retrievers to the Leader Dog School for the Blind in Rochester in 2002. 


While healthy-looking and clean, "the dogs didn't know how to walk on a leash. They crouched. They weren't friendly and didn't seem happy," said Samantha Ziegenmeyer, a puppy development specialist at the school. 


"They definitely did not have basic obedience training. We would not have taken them in if we didn't feel we could give them a better situation than the one they left. We knew we could at least find them homes as pets." 


Schulz provided copies of the school's intake forms that evaluate three of the dogs as "good" in the areas of obedience, confidence, approach, etc., on a scale of fair, good and great. 


April Gilligan, 41, of Highland Township said the 10-week-old puppy she bought from the Schulzes in May was highly trained and an ideal pet. 


"Amber rings a bell that hangs on a door when she wants to go the bathroom and won't go to sleep until her teeth are brushed," she said. "She's been a great dog." 


Gilligan, who is considering buying a second pup from the couple, said she did two months' research before selecting the Schulzes as her breeder. 


"When you meet (Kimberly), it is so obvious her dogs mean a lot to her." 


And a technician at Levan Road Animal Hospital in Livonia who has tested some of the 60-100 puppies the Schulzes have brought in since April said the dogs generally have been in good health. 


"(Kimberly) seems to be very conscientious about her breeding program," said Pam Brown-Steffen. "She's done everything we've recommended regarding the care of her dogs." 


Now the dogs are gone. Schulz said she moved all of them - 12 adults and 20 puppies - to the couple's second home in Van Buren County in November and doesn't plan to bring them back. 


The move came after township officials told the Schulzes they had to comply with the law by obtaining a kennel license. 


Neighbors had complained about large numbers of dogs on the Schulzes' 23-acre spread and horses escaping the property through a broken fence, said Township Ordinance Enforcement Officer Dave Chenault. 


Chenault said he never received a response to his three letters requesting the Schulzes submit a plan of action. 


Schulz said she didn't pursue a license because the application fee was too costly and she'd heard township officials already had decided not to give her one. Officials deny it. 


Township Board members on Tuesday asked Schulz to submit her request for a kennel license waiver in writing. On Friday, they said they were still waiting to hear from her. 


But with an Animal Control investigation launched, Schulz may have more to worry about than a kennel license. 


"I'm contacting my lawyer today," she said Friday. 

*** 

Please note that the article was written in 2004 and a judgement for $12,260.25 was handed down in favor of the Levan Animal Hospital in March 2005 against Kimberly. The order of events leads me to suspect that there was a falling out between the two parties sometime shortly AFTER the article was published.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I want to throw up


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> Schulz said she didn't pursue a license because the application fee was too costly


But she had a 2nd home


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I don't think so only because this latest raid, where they counted 52 dogs, was still at the Gordon Road property in Tyrone Township.
It appears to me to be some sort of 'cat and mouse' game being played out over several years... when you review the court judgements it adds yet another layer to this story.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

this is Goldrocks mom???


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Cat and mouse games are not healthy for golden retrievers, or any dogs. I'm just partial to goldens, so this hurts. It hurts alot.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

$1800 to $4000!? That is unreal. If the vet saw 60 - 100 puppies since April, that would be about 9 months worth of dogs if I am interpreting correctly. That is anywhere from 6 to 11 puppies a month being produced.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I will offer up yet another newspaper article tomorrow after I obtain it... I read it before but unfortunately didn't save it... but I can retrieve it again tomorrow. It may help explain a little more to what's going on. I don't want to be accused of slandering anyone so I won't try to paraphase the article here.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> Burns said one of her officers found golden retrievers chained to vehicles on the Schulzes' Gordon Road property during a downpour last fall.


I am sick about this. We never saw that in any of her pictures did we.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> $1800 to $4000!? That is unreal. If the vet saw 60 - 100 puppies since April, that would be about 9 months worth of dogs if I am interpreting correctly. That is anywhere from 6 to 11 puppies a month being produced.


I really don't think people who are not breeders or involved in rescue can understand just how out-of-bounds those numbers really are... 52 dogs in one location, 60-100 puppies in just 9-months... some people imagine this as OK "as long as they are well cared for". If they just really thought this through in realistic terms they'd realize how nutz the whole operation is... not to mention profit motivated.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Jo Ellen said:


> I am sick about this. We never saw that in any of her pictures did we.


Really, who's going to take a picture of Goldens chained to vehicles in the pouring rain and then posted them on the forum in hopes of selling lotsa puppies to the membership? Even if they are dressed up in cutesy costumes.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

Ok I am getting really sick to my tummy about this....That is way too many pups to be cared for at a time.....


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

All along while looking at all those pictures I figured something was up... it was litter after litter... This just sickens me........It's not like us rescues dont have enough dogs out there and are full.............


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I am not a breeder nor involved in rescue but I found those numbers to be immediately unsettling. I sat here and I counted in my head 52 times, imagining each one to be a golden retriever. I think I got to something like 15 and realized there's no way a "breeder" can take GOOD care of that many dogs. 

I need a support group for this. Having a really hard time.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

> Really, who's going to take a picture of Goldens chained to vehicles in the pouring rain and then posted them on the forum in hopes of selling lotsa puppies to the membership?


I know Monomer  I was just saying that we saw what she wanted us to see. Cameras are kind of like that.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

chat time?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

YES! I'm there


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I was one of the members who went up and visited Kimberly and her dogs. Yes, she had ALOT of dogs. More than I can ever imagine having. BUT, in her defense (not saying that she is doing things right or wrong) all of her dogs were very well cared for, clean, and were all known by name when I was there. I know that probably doesn't ease many of your concerns, but at least *from what I saw*, they were not starving, mistreated or abused. 

I have 4 of my own and that, to me, is enough to take care of. Again, just my thoughts.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Jo Ellen said:


> I know Monomer  I was just saying that we saw what she wanted us to see. Cameras are kind of like that.


I believe this is exactly what must have happened to the two members who visited her earlier...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Telsmith1... did you actually see all 47-52 dogs? (I believe the difference in count between Sept 18 and last Thursday was probably due to a new litter or two). Also how much advance notice did she have that you were coming over to see her place?


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

telsmith1 said:


> I was one of the members who went up and visited Kimberly and her dogs. Yes, she had ALOT of dogs. More than I can ever imagine having. BUT, in her defense (not saying that she is doing things right) all of her dogs are very well cared for, clean, and are all known by name. I know that probably doesn't ease many of your concerns, but at least *from what I saw*, they were not starving, mistreated or abused.
> 
> I have 4 of my own and that, to me, is enough to take care of. Again, just my thoughts.


You and Marsha's first hand account is all I have to go by.....and yeah, I have a tendancy to try and see only the good....

I've said to many, at least through PMs, that she's probably a puppy mill....but at the time, I also felt like as long as she was truly caring for the dogs, that was what mattered....

I also never saw her pictures as advertising to sell puppies, but more to show that she wasn't doing any harm....more of a defense....


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I honestly didn't count them all. There were alot. And I am not sure I even saw them all. I believe it was at least 2 or 3 days notice that she had that I was coming.

I also met Brady, the neuro puppy. He is so darn sweet and about broke my heart.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Thanks for your honesty... What do you think about these newspaper articles? I'm really trying hard to get a sense of what's been going on... I trust you and Marsha saw what you saw but what are the neighbors seeing then? It almost smells like it was a set-up.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

monomer said:


> Thanks for your honesty... What do you think about these newspaper articles? I'm really trying hard to get a sense of what's been going on... I trust you and Marsha saw what you saw but what are the neighbors seeing then? It almost smells like it was a set-up.


I dont know what to think. She knew I was coming...It wasn't a suprise visit. I honestly don't know what to think.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I dont know what to say but I feel sick to my stomach about all of this. I always thought there was alot of puppies but the pictures showed such cute pups and dogs that I guess I saw what I wanted. I hope that the dogs are all taken care of and she has to stop the breeding but I dont know how she will unless some court stops her.


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## Rena450 (Apr 16, 2007)

Our breeder that we got Oakley from lives in Grand Blanc, which is not far at all from Fenton (in fact, Fenton is probably 35 minutes from me).

Her and her husband are pretty well known in the GR circles because they have been showing, breeding, grooming and training Goldens for quite some time. They don't have a website and sell all their pups by word of mouth. 

When we go to puppy class this Thursday I am going to ask her about Gold Rocks. 

Even though I haven't got involved in any of the threads regarding GRM, I have been reading up on all the controversy. I, too, wondered why she hadn't been posting any oof those cute pics and updates on her pups.


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## Rena450 (Apr 16, 2007)

Oops, I must of posted twice. Sorry


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

telsmith1 said:


> I dont know what to think. She knew I was coming...It wasn't a suprise visit. I honestly don't know what to think.


 
Monomer, you mentioned 2 properties. Is it possible one is the "warehouse" and people don't go there? God I hate to even be thinking along these lines.......


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I'll be honest with you, I do know the story on that property but am not at liberty to discuss that here... All I can say is, its not what you think. Suffice it to say, if anything it was a temporary shell-game... anyway, there is only one property and its at Gordon Road.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Rena450 said:


> ...I, too, wondered why she hadn't been posting any oof those cute pics and updates on her pups.


Well, on the one hand she's claiming she doesn't run a kennel and her dogs are all house pets or for service animals only... but her verbage on this forum says something else completely. I assume her smartest move at this point is to lay low... at least that's what I'd be doing if I was in her place or I would advise her to do if I were her lawyer.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I want to know the truth, Monomer. How can I find the truth? What is a shell-game?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I would like to read all this info you have found.....


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Me too. I'd like to see it made public, right here.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Seek an ye shall find... now go forth and seek.

A shell-game is where you use more than one shell to hide a pea under and you keep shifting it so fast that observers have a hard time telling where that pea is...


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Monomer, you mentioned 2 properties. Is it possible one is the "warehouse" and people don't go there? God I hate to even be thinking along these lines.......


OMG! I just got a sinking feeling!!! You don't think she WAREHOUSES her dogs do you? OMG!!! OMG!!!
Jazzys Mom


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Jazzys Mom said:


> OMG! I just got a sinking feeling!!! You don't think she WAREHOUSES her dogs do you? OMG!!! OMG!!!
> Jazzys Mom


No, no, not literally. It was a thought I had because it's just so hard to imagine the person who shared all those wonderful photos would be someone who would chain a dog to a vehicle in the rain.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I wondered why we had so many forum members that supported such practices.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I wondered why we had so many forum members that supported such practices.


What do you mean?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

So many people here defended her constantly... it always baffled me... like it's okay to have 50 g'**** dogs and breed twenty litters in one year. I don't care who you are, that's seriously wack. I didn't know enough about the situation in the past, but after doing a bit of research... yikes.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Maggies mom said:


> I would like to read all this info you have found.....


What do you think I've been doing? I've posted the articles with another to come tomorrow. I can post judgements but you can seek them yourselves as well. The rest is hearsay by calling such places as Tyrone Township but its best that you call and get it first hand. What you guys are not realizing is the sheer number of frivolous lawsuits she has filed in the past against all who have spoken out... that is the retribution her neighbors fear and has keep them silent for so long. Though she's yet to win one the expense of fighting it over years before it finally goes away is not something I relish. Give me credit for being smart enough to learn from the mistakes of others. I will only stand by what has already been printed in the public domain and that is as far as you need to know. Beyond that, I have hearsay... and hearsay is based upon trust... you don't know me, therefore you should not trust me... go seek this public info for yourselves.
I will add more info as I deem it safe (from a legal standpoint) to do so. Besides some of this research is costing me some money to get access to.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> So many people here defended her constantly... it always baffled me... like it's okay to have 50 g'**** dogs and breed twenty litters in one year. I don't care who you are, that's seriously wack. I didn't know enough about the situation in the past, but after doing a bit of research... yikes.


 
Gotcha. And thanks for using "wack"...I am LMAO over here! :bowl::bowl::bowl:

I do recall you being leery and asking questions that often remained unanswered.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I am sooo naive.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

I am interested too in reading this material that is in the public domain. I did see the article form the tri-county area, but I am more interested in the litigation and case law. What search engine (through the universities) are you using to look that up? I know of what engines to use to look up Canadian case law...


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> Seek an ye shall find... now go forth and seek.
> 
> A shell-game is where you use more than one shell to hide a pea under and you keep shifting it so fast that observers have a hard time telling where that pea is...


What a viscious disturbed person you are. You LOVE to play instigator and then act cagey. You may think you are saving the world but in actuality you get a thrill out of this.

The mere fact that you are saying all this ON A PUBLIC FORUM tells me as clear as rain that you are clueless as to the ramifications of your actions. Think internet forums are free from lawsuits? Think your fictitious forum name will protect you? I could point out a few Federal statutes to you that would ruin your day but you're a smart guy, you know everything. 

You know, there are people on this forum that work in legal that knows about this stuff. There, how's that for cagey.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

*** ???

I am an innocent naive golden owner who loves the golden breed. I don't know which way to turn. 

I HATE THIS!

:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Ant... well, then you go sue the newspapers because that is all I've done so far. And if you wish to keep quiet and protect someone with 52 dogs and 100+ puppies per year then that says a lot about who you are... really! 

You and your motives are so very transparent... still smarting from that rant you made about Iraq and then proved you didn't know what you were talking about... let it go already, there are more important things in life to be concerned about than your pride.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Ant said:


> What a viscious disturbed person you are. You LOVE to play instigator and then act cagey. You may think you are saving the world but in actuality you get a thrill out of this.
> 
> The mere fact that you are saying all this ON A PUBLIC FORUM tells me as clear as rain that you are clueless as to the ramifications of your actions. Think internet forums are free from lawsuits? Think your fictitious forum name will protect you? I could point out a few Federal statutes to you that would ruin your day but you're a smart guy, you know everything.
> 
> You know, there are people on this forum that work in legal that knows about this stuff. There, how's that for cagey.


Posting publicly what is already public isn't a crime or slander. But anybody can start an expensive frivalious lawsuit even if it starts and end wtih no merit. They are meant to intimidate and 'shut people" up . A terrorist tactic I suppose.

Geeze ant...you for that sort of thing?


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Jo Ellen said:


> *** ???
> 
> I am an innocent naive golden owner who loves the golden breed. I don't know which way to turn.
> 
> ...


Rut Roh another thread turning sour :yuck::yuck::yuck:


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> I don't think its fair to 'hi-jack' the timm's thread. I thought I was being helpful and things just moved on from there... Sorry timm. .


what did you think would happen when you posted that news story?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Personally, I think if someone on this forum is breeding goldens in an unethical manner, I WANT TO KNOW IT. I don't think any such person should be welcome here .. and if ever there would be a reason to ban someone, that would be it.

I don't know anything about personal differences here, personal agendas, he said she said .... that's NOT what I care about.

I care about goldens being bred and cared for responsibly. That's all!!


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Lucky's mom said:


> Geeze ant...you for that sort of thing?


I don't think Ant's for that sort of thing.....I think Ant is merely warning that it doesn't take much to start a lawsuit.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

RickGibbs said:


> I don't think Ant's for that sort of thing.....I think Ant is merely warning that it doesn't take much to start a lawsuit.


Ah, well I bet I misunderstood. Being involved as a witness in a frivolous lawsuit at work once, I have so much contempt for it.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> what did you think would happen when you posted that news story?


I felt it would raise awareness. Would you rather have not known? There is actually a much larger number of people on this forum that have known for quite some time... Ant was complaining that he wasn't in the loop... he's in the loop and he's still complaining. People will always complain, but it is I who must live with my conscious.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I wanted to know.


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> Ant... well, then you go sue the newspapers because that is all I've done so far. And if you wish to keep quiet and protect someone with 52 dogs and 100+ puppies per year then that says a lot about who you are... really!
> 
> You and your motives are so very transparent... still smarting from that rant you made about Iraq and then proved you didn't know what you were talking about... let it go already, there are more important things in life to be concerned about than your pride.


You are a self absorbed moron, plain and simple.


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


> what did you think would happen when you posted that news story?


Exactly.

He thinks he's a caped crusader and his word is biblical and must be heeded.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

name calling doesn't reinforce your argument more. however, court records do exist as do newspaper articles.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> Ant... well, then you go sue the newspapers because that is all I've done so far. And if you wish to keep quiet and protect someone with 52 dogs and 100+ puppies per year then that says a lot about who you are... really!
> 
> You and your motives are so very transparent... still smarting from that rant you made about Iraq and then proved you didn't know what you were talking about... let it go already, there are more important things in life to be concerned about than your pride.


 
why are you so interested in GRMs problems?? i dont feel its anyone's JOB to do this research, so why are you giving it so much of your time and money? unless of course, youre her lawyer.


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

tintallie said:


> name calling doesn't reinforce your argument more. however, court records do exist as do newspaper articles.


Sigh.

You people are clueless.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> I felt it would raise awareness. Would you rather have not known? There is actually a much larger number of people on this forum that have known for quite some time... Ant was complaining that he wasn't in the loop... he's in the loop and he's still complaining. People will always complain, but it is I who must live with my conscious.


 
well to start another thread about how sorry you are to timm...just seems weird to me. why didnt you think of that in the first place, you had to assume something would arise from your post...?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Ant said:


> You are a self absorbed moron, plain and simple.


Ah yes, but enough of this stimulating intelligent discussion between concerned Golden owners... let's now switch to crude baseless assaults upon each other. Yes, distraction will take all our minds off of puppy factories.

That's it for the baiting Ant, playtime is over... unless you have something truly relevant to discuss I will have to ignore your rantings. Everyone else would probably rather discuss more serious concerns...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I have waited and watched, and not said anything, figuring that eventually people would figure this out.

I was asked by a couple of people on the forum (and no, not Monomer and not Pointgold) to look into the background of some of the dogs bred and produced by Goldrocks Mom. I used k9data and OFA to do this, it wasn’t very hard, took only a few hours all told. I was very disturbed by what I found, relating to dogs being bred without OFA clearances. Including one who was bred 2-3 times before being OFA’d and found to be dysplastic. There were others who were bred before OFA clearances were gotten but thankfully passed. And I hadn’t even found River at that point, or the stud dog that was used on her.

One or two dogs early on, I'm inclined to chalk up to ignorance but the further I looked, the more I found. And I was only looking at hips and elbows, not other clearances

Goldens unfortunately have become easy moneymakers for some less than ethical breeders. There are a lot of high volume breeders out there and I don't have a problem with them per se. I do have a problem when they start taking shortcuts regarding clearances.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> Everyone else would probably rather discuss more serious concerns...


 
serious concerns over things that arent our business?


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## sophiesadiehannah's mom (Feb 11, 2007)

as most of you know, i have a rescue from goldrock's. i have been there about a dozen times and sometimes with just an hour notice. i had no idea all this stuff was going on. all i can say is what i have witnessed and that is alot of dogs who were all clean, well fed and taken care of. several fenced play areas for the puppies, toddlers and older dogs filled with pools and toys. most housed in the air conditioned home. i also saw a genuine concern by kimberly and helpers for the welfare of these animals. on my visits, i have spent several hours and as can recall, very rarely did a dog bark. they all seem to be happy and content. also kim had my recue(hannah) vetted and spayed before i picked her up and charged me nothing. she may have a lot of dogs, but puppy mill? i think not. that is my opinion and please don't rack me over the coals for it.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> well to start another thread about how sorry you are to timm...just seems weird to me. why didnt you think of that in the first place, you had to assume something would arise from your post...?


If you read that post, in order, you would have realized that I was answering timm's pondering on why GoldRocks had not answered any of the emails. It was just that simple. However, if you followed the conversation (subsequent postings) the questions about GRMs not responding was still being discussed because no one had read that posting careful enough. So I supplied just enough information to get an understanding of what GRM was facing... still they didn't get it... so I had to add another piece until finally it was understood that she has major legal issues to deal with that the dealings on this forum might compromise the outcome. At this point posters began to 'see' further into the situation... that was not my original intent but so be it, I moved it. Timm understood exactly why the thread took the turn it did and said so and acknowledged its importance... its you who are having the problem... you will only see what you want to see.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> If you read that post, in order, you would have realized that I was answering timm's pondering on why GoldRocks had not answered any of the emails. It was just that simple. However, if you followed the conversation (subsequent postings) the questions about GRMs not responding was still being discussed because no one had read that posting careful enough. So I supplied just enough information to get an understanding of what GRM was facing... still they didn't get it... so I had to add another piece until finally it was understood that she has major legal issues to deal with that the dealings on this forum might compromise the outcome. At this point posters began to 'see' further into the situation... that was not my original intent but so be it, I moved it. Timm understood exactly why the thread took the turn it did and said so and acknowledged its importance... its you who are having the problem... you will only see what you want to see.


i dont have a problem. i read more than i post. i have read the entire thread.

thanks for clarifying.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

sophie said:


> as most of you know, i have a rescue from goldrock's. i have been there about a dozen times and sometimes with just an hour notice. i had no idea all this stuff was going on. all i can say is what i have witnessed and that is alot of dogs who were all clean, well fed and taken care of. several fenced play areas for the puppies, toddlers and older dogs filled with pools and toys. most housed in the air conditioned home. i also saw a genuine concern by kimberly and helpers for the welfare of these animals. on my visits, i have spent several hours and as can recall, very rarely did a dog bark. they all seem to be happy and content. also kim had my recue(hannah) vetted and spayed before i picked her up and charged me nothing. she may have a lot of dogs, but puppy mill? i think not. that is my opinion and please don't rack me over the coals for it.


Not at all... I have no problem with honesty. You saw what you saw... however I am curious as to how you might reconcile your experiences with what was reported in those newspaper articles. Do you feel there is a dis-connect somewhere? I only know what I've found on the Internet (and what I've discussed with government employees I will not divulge on the forum). However I am considering mentioning court settlements that are in the public record... I just need to consult first before deciding whether to do so. So at this point the only thing up for discussion is what was in those two articles. There appears to be no discussion of the 100+ puppies per year or the 52 dogs on the property or the complaint by her neighbors for years... these are established facts. Do you by any chance happen to know how many helpers she employs? I'm looking for things to help me explain that which doesn't quite add up between what forum observers have reported verses her community of neighbors.


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> Not at all... I have no problem with honesty. You saw what you saw... however I am curious as to how you might reconcile your experiences with what was reported in those newspaper articles. Do you feel there is a dis-connect somewhere? I only know what I've found on the Internet (and what I've discussed with government employees I will not divulge on the forum). However I am considering mentioning court settlements that are in the public record... I just need to consult first before deciding whether to do so. So at this point the only thing up for discussion is what was in those two articles. There appears to be no discussion of the 100+ puppies per year or the 52 dogs on the property or the complaint by her neighbors for years... these are established facts. Do you by any chance happen to know how many helpers she employs? I'm looking for things to help me explain that which doesn't quite add up between what forum observers have reported verses her community of neighbors.


Do you wear a cape and tights when you sit in front of your computer? Why did you wait until GRM left the forum before you decided to save us all from her?

You just have some sort of perverted need for attention. Look at your 2 posts, laurajen (as if you didn't know it would stir **** up) and now this. Yes, you are indeed saving the world! It's a bird, it's a plane!!!!!


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

It is a concern if breeding practices aren't for the betterment of the breed.


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

tintallie said:


> It is a concern if breeding practices aren't for the betterment of the breed.


His motives are not for anything other than self serving attention. Very disturbing.


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## sophiesadiehannah's mom (Feb 11, 2007)

momomer, sorry i will not answer any questions, i am not a part or do i want to be a part of this whole thing. i like kimberly, i like goldrocks, i have no commitments or anything to gain by defending kimberly. i barely knew her when she gave me hannah. my question to you, is why do you feel it is your mission to publish this all on the forum?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Would you rather this all remain hidden? Hmmm. The newspapers thought it was important enough to publish and the courts feel the same. Its your right to defend Kimberly, I fully understand and will not pick a fight with you. What you don't seem to understand is how hard it is for someone to speak out and face the rath of others... trust me, its not an easy thing, I gain nothing by it, only the ability to sleep at night. I will take truth over friendship anytime... its a difficult choice to be sure but there can be no question that truth must come first. *"Its not bad men who are the reason there is evil in this world, it is the fault of good men who see it and do nothing."*


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## sophiesadiehannah's mom (Feb 11, 2007)

i have no trouble sleeping at night. from my point of view all is well with the dogs at goldrocks, and if not i will just have to live with my blinders on.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Ant said:


> Why did you wait until GRM left the forum before you decided to save us all from her?


Well, she is still here.....she was on the forum yesterday.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Man have you guys been busy while I have been away today. This is all very disturbing.

Hooch


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> Man have you guys been busy while I have been away today. This is all very disturbing.
> 
> Hooch


 
it gave me the chills when someone mentioned the word "warehouse"


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Personally, I think if someone on this forum is breeding goldens in an unethical manner, I WANT TO KNOW IT. I don't think any such person should be welcome here .. and if ever there would be a reason to ban someone, that would be it.
> 
> I don't know anything about personal differences here, personal agendas, he said she said .... that's NOT what I care about.
> 
> I care about goldens being bred and cared for responsibly. That's all!!


I second this quote, well said Jo Ellen. For me I am not one to judge people, but if they are doing something wrong and an unsuspecting customer is to come along, then they should be aware. Slander is the only way you can sue and since nothing is being said that is not untrue (because it is from public documents) then please, post on.....


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I am just blown away by it all. Not sure what to think about anything.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> I have waited and watched, and not said anything, figuring that eventually people would figure this out.
> 
> I was asked by a couple of people on the forum (and no, not Monomer and not Pointgold) to look into the background of some of the dogs bred and produced by Goldrocks Mom. I used k9data and OFA to do this, it wasn’t very hard, took only a few hours all told. I was very disturbed by what I found, relating to dogs being bred without OFA clearances. Including one who was bred 2-3 times before being OFA’d and found to be dysplastic. There were others who were bred before OFA clearances were gotten but thankfully passed. And I hadn’t even found River at that point, or the stud dog that was used on her.
> 
> ...


See this is the kind of sh** I am talking about. Breeders that f*** up at the expense of the dog. Then the dogs has to live its life in pain. I know this first hand, I have a dog with ED and HD from a piece of sh** breeder that has no care in the world for the breed but for her pockets. I am sorry for all the swearing here but this kind of sh** is why there are so many rescues...because unsuspecting people who don't know any better (me being one of them) purchase a dog that the breeder knows is not cleared and have to put the dogs through surgery and not owners do what we did or some of you did as far as surgery, they dump them.....this sh** needs to stop and if she is breeding dogs with no clearance then she needs to be called out in the open and future owners need to be WARNED. :no:


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

I understand folks may be angry, but please control your language. There are children that visit this forum. 

I appreciate that... Thanks!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Children visit this forum? I'm sure. But I have to say there have been many instances of topics or replies to topics that have not been ... shall I say ... _mature ..._ that go consistently unchallenged, and even encouraged.

I would much prefer my child read the indignities expressed in displeasure over bad breeding practices than see some of the obscene disrespect in communications that I have witnessed here.


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

and for people who let their children visit a forum without visiting it themselves, shame on them. Rick knows what is up on this forum and i know his children visit but i'm sure if there was topic that he didn't want his kids to see, he'd take care of that on his end being the PARENT. *Parents are responsible for what their children see on the internet. *

I myself have just read all this and i am not sure what to think. As far as posting something that is already public record on a public forum. Why not? It's not like we couldn't have googled it ourselves anyhow. 

I am not defending anyone here as i don't know the whole entire story. I hope this story is false and that someone that is an active member on our forum and seems to love our breed would never do something like this. The article posted states otherwise but until i have all the facts, i will not judge what she is doing. I don't approve of puppy mills and i do hope she isn't do that.


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## JensDreamboy (May 25, 2007)

If I'm interpreting the end of the article correctly: why was money awarded to the Levan Animal Hospital? Or is that a part we don't know?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Nicci831 said:


> I second this quote, well said Jo Ellen. For me I am not one to judge people, but if they are doing something wrong and an unsuspecting customer is to come along, then they should be aware. Slander is the only way you can sue and since nothing is being said that is not untrue (because it is from public documents) then please, post on.....


I agree with Nicci... Do you know how many dogs we get in the rescue because people didnt know what kind of breeder they got there dog from and they have medical issues that the owners cant afford. These people trust the breeders and go by there word, not knowing about clearances, etc....We have one now named Molly not even a year old and needs both hip replaced. Her owners turned her in because they couldnt afford to get her the surgery to the tune of $4000 each side.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm no longer going to post in these threads about Goldrocks, but let me once again play the devils advocate on one subject and one subject only (not about clearances etc.) I never believe everything the media delivers. Having been interviewed a few occasions myself and seeing what was written later....


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

again, I apologize for my language. Since I am dealing with a dysplastic pup and the Breeder is totally responsible. I am on a mission to expose these breeders and make people aware. When I heard that her dogs are not cleared and she is knowingly breeding the dogs that are throwing Dysplasia, it threw me off the edge. =( Please forgive me =(


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I've not had time to read-up on the latest happening on the forum or in this thread... I actually have to work sometimes... but I put this together in response to a posting requesting it.

For those wishing to search and access court case summaries on their own I must first caution you that it’s not free… $6 per search. And $2.50 for each record you would like to view.

You can start with this link for Livingston County Court Records:
https://www.livingstonlive.org/CourtRecordValidation/
Go to Public Users and click on the “Begin Search” button.
You must now “Accept” the Online Terms of Access and Use Agreement
Enter a Party Last Name: Schulz
a Party First Name: Kimberly
DOB: 6/5/1965

Of the case numbers that will show-up these are probably the most pertinent:
06-0865-SC Judgement for Plaintiff RA Caroffino $765. 4/26/06

06-1521-SC Judgement for Plaintiff Billy Justus $1245.00 7/11/06

04-6035-SC Judgement for Plaintiff John & Nancy Smith $1345.00 8/26/04 order entered for seizure of property and garnishment

04-6689-GC Judgement for Plaintiff Levan Rd Animal Hospital $12,260.25 3/30/05

93-5872-GC OF First Judgement for Plaintiff $4,460.51 2/7/94

07-6488-GC Judgement for Plaintiff Steven & Beth Quigley $6771.65 NOT CLOSED


These records are all part of the public record but remember there is still a fee to pay… 



Here is the phone number for Tyrone Township (810) 629-8631… if you are curious as to what the current status is concerning Kimberly verses the township and county, you should call and ask.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Nicci831 said:


> again, I apologize for my language. Since I am dealing with a dysplastic pup and the Breeder is totally responsible. I am on a mission to expose these breeders and make people aware. When I heard that her dogs are not cleared and she is knowingly breeding the dogs that are throwing Dysplasia, it threw me off the edge. =( Please forgive me =(


Nicci, I think everyone understands how you feel..... Everyone just wants a healthy dog /pup.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> Nicci, I think everyone understands how you feel..... Everyone just wants a healthy dog /pup.


Thanks Maggie, just gets under my skin....any responsible owner I am sure feels the same way...


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## Ant (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> I've not had time to read-up on the latest happening on the forum or in this thread... I actually have to work sometimes... but I put this together in response to a posting requesting it.
> 
> For those wishing to search and access court case summaries on their own I must first caution you that it’s not free… $6 per search. And $2.50 for each record you would like to view.
> 
> ...


What a sick, bitter, twisted old f*** you are. This is how you spend your free time? You need help.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

language language Ant


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

True to my word, here is another article from the Tri-County:


Possible agreement with dog owners discussed 
By: Anna Troppens, Staff Reporter
10/07/2007


Tyrone Twp. - The Township Board will consider a proposed agreement, at its Oct. 16 meeting, with Kimberly and Steven Schulz. 

Neighbors of the Schulz family have made complaints to the township about the Schulz' dogs, Clerk Horace "Hod" Morton has said. Also, township officials believe the Schulz' are running a commercial kennel in violation of the township's zoning ordinances.

Kimberly Schulz said her family breeds, raises and trains Golden Retrievers to become service dogs for people with disabilities. Service dogs are exempt from a kennel license, she said. 

Her dogs aren't kept in kennels. Instead, they are raised in her home and taken into public areas for training.

A mediation session has taken place with a mediator, township attorney John Harris and Zoning Administrator George Van Hecke. The session took place on Sept. 18, according to a letter from Harris to Supervisor Andrew Schmidt. 

It was an attempt to get the parties to agree on something. There are no guarantees the township will accept the offer that resulted from the mediation, Harris said.

Kimberly Schulz said she did not know the terms of the proposed agreement yet.

Schmidt said Harris offered to attend the Oct. 2 Township Board meeting and go into closed session to discuss the issue. Schmidt believed Harris' letter explained the situation thoroughly, and the township didn't need him to sit through the Oct. 2 meeting.

Instead, the subject will be on the Oct. 16 meeting agenda for the board to consider. This will give every board member two weeks to review the issue. Their questions can be answered before Oct. 16, Schmidt said.
*******

Here is the phone number for Tyrone Township (810) 629-8631… if you are curious as to what the current status is concerning Kimberly verses the township and county, you should call and ask.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

How much is a kennel license? I can't imagine bringing this kind of scrutiny down on oneself over what is usually a pretty nominal fee. Here in my town a kennel license is $50 (may have gone up to $100).

This whole thing is just so confusing. I have seen the results of "bad breeding" operations - the dogs were all thin, dirty, frightened, and many were even very obviously not "well bred". All the pictures GRM has posted have never given even a hint of that kind of thing. 

I believe what has been posted here about the issues of clearances and I sincerely do not support breeding without those, but what is being implied beyond that sounds like neglect. I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around that given what GRM has shared with us here.

I neither condemn nor defend...just sharing what I am thinking right now.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Consent to unannounced inspections of the premises by officers who know what to look for I believe is a requirement in most Michigan townships as a part of getting a Kennel License... might this have a bearing? I don't know... just trying to find answers too.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

GRM did explain this in her thread today. Apparently, commercial breeders must build a kennel for the dogs to live in, GRM's dogs live in her home for training as service dogs. Also, she would have to put in a paved parking lot. According to GRM, the Township has no authority to enforce a kennel license and she expects the Federal Court will back her on that.

The area she lives in is not zoned for small business. I honestly don't think the fight is with regard to the care her dogs are getting, I think this is a zoning issue...GRM has enough dogs to be considered a commercial breeder. While the paper says she can apply for a special use permit, GRM says she has already been informed she will not be granted a special use permit.

What do other breeders do? Are all breeding programs, even small ones, considered a small business and do you choose where you lived based on zoning ordinances? Every breeder I visited in my search for Phoebe, operated out of the home, except as GRM mentioned...Bennington Kennels. 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Phoebe said:


> GRM did explain this in her thread today. Apparently, commercial breeders must build a kennel for the dogs to live in, GRM's dogs live in her home for training as service dogs. Also, she would have to put in a paved parking lot. According to GRM, the Township has no authority to enforce a kennel license and she expects the Federal Court will back her on that.
> 
> The area she lives in is not zoned for small business. I honestly don't think the fight is with regard to the care her dogs are getting, I think this is a zoning issue...GRM has enough dogs to be considered a commercial breeder. While the paper says she can apply for a special use permit, GRM says she has already been informed she will not be granted a special use permit.
> 
> ...


I know in most communities zoning issues can get UGLY. If you have people around you who do not want to see their area go commercial they will fight tooth and nail. All sorts of mud gets slung (if that is even the word!)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just a question... Is living with 42, or even 20, dogs in a house really considered "okay'? I hesitate to use the word normal, but seriously, is it? Clean, healthy and well fed aside, this borders on hoarding. 
As for what other breeders do, reputable, responsible breeders with large scale operations do have kennels. And that is not an awful thing. Frankly, other than what one would consider HVB's or mills, I don't know of that many breeders who are reputable that keeps dog on a very large scale anymore. Some folks do have boarding kennels as a business, and breed show and performance dogs for themselves as a hobby and on a fairly small scale. Most are not producing 100+ puppies a years. It just isn't feasible like it used to be, economically speaking, to do it right. I simply cannot imagine anyone having that many dogs inside a house.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I have had ten at most, when I had a house and a large fenced yard, and that alone was temporary for rescue, NEVER for breeding. It was a FULL TIME job giving just the ten what they needed, and I had a boyfriend at the time who helped me a lot. I was up at dawn and up late every night... I now have four as a max here, ever, one of which is not mine and which is cared for by another person in the household, and it's a ton of work, and my place is pretty big and mostly tile... so from that perspective, not even talking about GRM specifically, I cannot imagine more than ten, ever, in the house. THREE is plenty for me personally to be caring for!


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I'm not out to take sides, but I have to question anyone having 40 some dogs and being able to care for each and everyone by way of training, and medical care and giving each one a happy life by walking and socializing them. Of course much of what I do isn't law either.

As for the breeding part, it is not against the law to breed and sell with no certifications, it happens all the time and as much as I hate it, it isn't against the law in Michigan.

I'm sure the truth will prevail, it always does. We will all be reading about it one way or the other once it is settled.


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## mrod (Apr 12, 2006)

Rena450 said:


> Our breeder that we got Oakley from lives in Grand Blanc, which is not far at all from Fenton (in fact, Fenton is probably 35 minutes from me).
> 
> Her and her husband are pretty well known in the GR circles because they have been showing, breeding, grooming and training Goldens for quite some time. They don't have a website and sell all their pups by word of mouth.
> 
> ...


Where at in Grand Blanc do you go? I'm from around that area.


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## Rena450 (Apr 16, 2007)

She has some classes in South Lyon, which is closer to us than some of her other locations. Her classes are usually thru the Parks and Recreation Departments or Community Education, but, if you purchase a pup from her, you can attend her classes for free. 
This past summer she held "puppy socialization" classes at the school on Torrey Road. I think it was Fenton Lake Middle School.


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

wow... I am honestly shocked at this post. I can appreciate the concern for golden retrievers, but what some of you are doing or chatting about is going to ruin someones LIFE! Yes, we're all dog lovers, but Golden Rocks Mom is a human being... I think what is happening on this form is sick. 

People are ganging up on her and although she may be in the wrong, she may be operating a puppy mill...she is still a human being who is deserving of respect. What gives you all the right to compile a bunch of evidence to prove that she is in the wrong? What joy do you all get from gossiping about someone and trying to make her feel so small? What some of you are doing is bullying, plain and simple. The law has obviously already been involved, so let the law enforcers do their job... I don't see the need to pry into other peoples business like this.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> How much is a kennel license? I can't imagine bringing this kind of scrutiny down on oneself over what is usually a pretty nominal fee. Here in my town a kennel license is $50 (may have gone up to $100).
> 
> This whole thing is just so confusing. I have seen the results of "bad breeding" operations - the dogs were all thin, dirty, frightened, and many were even very obviously not "well bred". All the pictures GRM has posted have never given even a hint of that kind of thing.
> 
> ...


Exactly what I am feeling right now. Just doesn't gel with what we have seen and heard on this forum. I certainly do want to know though, if puppy mill practices are going on. As I had said earlier, I was seriously considering calling Kimberly if we couldn't get another puppy from Jazzys breeder

Jazzys Mom


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

gisabella said:


> wow... I am honestly shocked at this post. I can appreciate the concern for golden retrievers, but what some of you are doing or chatting about is going to ruin someones LIFE! Yes, we're all dog lovers, but Golden Rocks Mom is a human being... I think what is happening on this form is sick.
> 
> People are ganging up on her and although she may be in the wrong, she may be operating a puppy mill...she is still a human being who is deserving of respect. What gives you all the right to compile a bunch of evidence to prove that she is in the wrong? What joy do you all get from gossiping about someone and trying to make her feel so small? What some of you are doing is bullying, plain and simple. The law has obviously already been involved, so let the law enforcers do their job... I don't see the need to pry into other peoples business like this.


 
now you see why i was so irritated earlier.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> now you see why i was so irritated earlier.





Jazzys Mom said:


> As I had said earlier, I was seriously considering calling Kimberly if we couldn't get another puppy from Jazzys breeder.


And this is probably part of the reason Monomer is showing us what he's showing us...


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

If his motives are so pure, shouldn't this be in the 'Breeder' forum? Isn't that where people would look to find information on breeders? Who's reputable and who isn't?

This is dispictable. And so is his thread about Laura somebody. Neither thread has any redeeming value. He started that one just to bash and gossip. If he really needs to know what the parameters of being banned are, he needs only pm admin and get all the answers.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Penny'smom said:


> If his motives are so pure, shouldn't this be in the 'Breeder' forum?


I have no idea what his motives really are....only he knows that...


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

gisabella said:


> wow... I am honestly shocked at this post. I can appreciate the concern for golden retrievers, but what some of you are doing or chatting about is going to ruin someones LIFE! Yes, we're all dog lovers, but Golden Rocks Mom is a human being... I think what is happening on this form is sick.
> 
> People are ganging up on her and although she may be in the wrong, she may be operating a puppy mill...she is still a human being who is deserving of respect. What gives you all the right to compile a bunch of evidence to prove that she is in the wrong? What joy do you all get from gossiping about someone and trying to make her feel so small? What some of you are doing is bullying, plain and simple. The law has obviously already been involved, so let the law enforcers do their job... I don't see the need to pry into other peoples business like this.



And wow, I'm honestly shocked at your post. Personally, I don't think GRM is operating a mill...at least not the type of mill my fosters come from. But if you honestly think some millers are human, you're clueless. They are cruel, inhumane, vile creatures that deserve to be stuck in cages living in their own urine and feces. If I thought Kimberly was operating the mills my fosters come from, I'd be doing everything in my power to get her shut down. Fifty plus dogs is starting to look a lot like a mill...I just don't think Kimberly is one of those vile disgusting creatures, she may actually take care of her dogs, but it is certainly worth figuring out, and a few members have confirmed she cares for her dogs. It is very sad that we are taking her to task at this time though...she's not one of those millers and a sick mom is more than enough to handle, so I hear part of what you're saying. But to suggest that even if she is operating a mill, she's still human...you think people that shoot their dogs in the head because they can't produce puppies anymore is human?

We should always be disgusted when we hear of a puppymill and we should hold people that run them accountable.


Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

I am sorry but if someone is breeding dogs without clearances, then people have the right to know, especially if they are planning on adopting from her in the future. That "type" of person needs to feel very little in my book, knowingly breeding dogs that have issues. I am sorry but no mill deserves respect in my book.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Nicci831 said:


> I am sorry but if someone is breeding dogs without clearances, then people have the right to know, especially if they are planning on adopting from her in the future. That "type" of person needs to feel very little in my book, knowingly breeding dogs that have issues.


Thats exactly it, if you don't do clearances, be totally honest about it... and let people then make an informed choice.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> And wow, I'm honestly shocked at your post. Personally, I don't think GRM is operating a mill...at least not the type of mill my fosters come from. But if you honestly think some millers are human, you're clueless. They are cruel, inhumane, vile creatures that deserve to be stuck in cages living in their own urine and feces. If I thought Kimberly was operating the mills my fosters come from, I'd be doing everything in my power to get her shut down. Fifty plus dogs is starting to look a lot like a mill...I just don't think Kimberly is one of those vile disgusting creatures, she may actually take care of her dogs, but it is certainly worth figuring out, and a few members have confirmed she cares for her dogs. It is very sad that we are taking her to task at this time though...she's not one of those millers and a sick mom is more than enough to handle, so I hear part of what you're saying. But to suggest that even if she is operating a mill, she's still human...you think people that shoot their dogs in the head because they can't produce puppies anymore is human?
> 
> We should always be disgusted when we hear of a puppymill and we should hold people that run them accountable.
> 
> ...


Well said Jan


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed Jan- and this is NOT about Goldrocksmom... so Kimberly, take note of that. This isn't about you:

But if a person DOES breed mass numbers in filthey conditions, a true puppy mill in the traditional sense of the word- they are, IMO, not human.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

You know, I was thinking.....

If someone had come on this forum, and just posted links to these articles and filled us in on everything that was going on....and it wasn't a person we knew from the forum.....most everyone would be horrified. It happens all the time here.

But because it's a forum member, people are getting defensive.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

RickGibbs said:


> You know, I was thinking.....
> 
> If someone had come on this forum, and just posted links to these articles and filled us in on everything that was going on....and it wasn't a person we knew from the forum.....most everyone would be horrified. It happens all the time here.
> 
> But because it's a forum member, people are getting defensive.


Agreed, whatever the outcome


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> You know, I was thinking.....
> 
> If someone had come on this forum, and just posted links to these articles and filled us in on everything that was going on....and it wasn't a person we knew from the forum.....


 
wait...if the person doing all this breeding wasnt someone we knew? or the person posting the links?


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

The FACTS remain facts, she is breeding without clearances also, and having 36 (per her post on the other thread) rescue dogs alone not including puppies. How is one to pay for proper care of all these dogs, we are spending more on our pups vet bills then Ken and me combined (not vet bills BTW, but doc bills LOL)


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I've defended Kimberly....because puppy mill or not, her dogs do look geniunely cared for....which, at least for me, separates her from a typical puppy mill. I've e-mailed and PMed with her a lot, and I like her.

I do have questions about AKC registrations though. Many sites that GoldRocks are listed on say that her dogs are AKC registered. Sure, a lot of these sites look like they are outdated....but it doesn't seem that anyone is concerned about correcting it. Then, we've had new members show up, trying to track her down, because they want these papers....which makes me believe they were led to believe they were AKC registered.

I haven't seen any of the OFA info, so I can't comment on that......


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Nicci831 said:


> The FACTS remain facts, she is breeding without clearances also, and having 36 (per her post on the other thread) rescue dogs alone not including puppies. How is one to pay for proper care of all these dogs, we are spending more on our pups vet bills then Ken and me combined (not vet bills BTW, but doc bills LOL)


 
what i dont understand is WHY she has so many rescues..? i guess i am completely confused..

did she get the rescues from a "rescue?" 

why would a rescue give someone with so many dogs, ANOTHER DOG?? dont rescues research that type of thing?

or was she running her own rescue..


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> wait...if the person doing all this breeding wasnt someone we knew? or the person posting the links?


The person doing the breeding. Most of us would be disgusted to read these same stories about a breeder we didn't know.

And we'd be attacking the stories, without further proof.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I have been thinking about this since last night. I am not in a position to know the truth of this matter. I can only speculate. I shouldn't do that but one thing keeps coming back to mind...

Bad breeding practices IS our business. As golden retriever lovers and owners, it is our RESPONSIBILITY to guard and protect this breed, wherever possible. We should never turn a blind eye, for any reason. 

What's more, I feel no compunction whatsoever to show respect or consideration to someone who is involved in irresponsible breeding. Human beings? Yes, of course. So was Ted Bundy.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> what i dont understand is WHY she has so many rescues..? i guess i am completely confused..
> 
> did she get the rescues from a "rescue?"
> 
> ...


That's another good question.....I hadn't even thought of that...


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> The person doing the breeding. Most of us would be disgusted to read these same stories about a breeder we didn't know.
> 
> And we'd be attacking the stories, without further proof.


 
OH OK! i agree.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> That's another good question.....I hadn't even thought of that...


 
anyone have thoughts


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

There was some other person breeding with an ill reputation. That person's home was destroyed in a fire, and I am thinking Kimberly took the dogs in and rehomed them or cared for them.

That is what I gathered, I don't know if it is accurate. Kimberly could clarify.

36 rescues PLUS her own dogs is a massive amount.

HER OWN WEBSITE lists 16 litters in 2006...


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Jo Ellen said:


> What's more, I feel no compunction whatsoever to show respect or consideration to someone who is involved in irresponsible breeding. Human beings? Yes, of course. So was Ted Bundy.


Because she is a member here, I'd love to know the whole story. She seems to have her side of the story and we've heard the other side of the story as well.

What's the real story? Or is it somewhere in the middle?


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> There was some other person breeding with an ill reputation. That person's home was destroyed in a fire, and I am thinking Kimberly took the dogs in and rehomed them or cared for them.
> 36 rescues PLUS her own dogs is a massive amount.


 
i read about the dogs from the house that burned...but i thought it was just a litter and 2 adults..


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> OH OK! i agree.


And really, I'm not saying we SHOULD be attacking her. But I think we should want answers.

Becky and Marsha have both been there....and neither saw what we're talking about..... Could Kimberly have really deceived them like that?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It's usually somewhere in the middle.

I was deeply, personally involved in the Elektra Saluki shut down.

I took dogs, with the breeder's blessing, even begging me to take them, before rescue ever got involved. I was the only person she trusted, because I treated her like a HUMAN being, and I truly understood her on some bizarre level.

I stayed with her. I helped her. I loved those dogs, and her passion and love for them reduced me to tears. But she was over her head, she had 75 dogs, and it was too much.

I loved her, she called me after ODing one night and I truly was terrified she could die.

It was a tough place to be in. I cared for her as a friend, yet I wanted to shut her down and save those dogs. The dogs I got needed so much care and work. It was so hard.

It's never easy... believe me I see the human in all people. But I also see the mistakes and I wanted to help her Salukis, and I did.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

There may have been many surviving dogs from the fire, and those are the ones Kimberly would have saved


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> i read about the dogs from the house that burned...but i thought it was just a litter and 2 adults..


No....it was a lot of dogs.....though, I think a lot of them had died in the fire....

I'll have to dig up that thread....


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> But if you honestly think some millers are human, you're clueless. They are cruel, inhumane, vile creatures that deserve to be stuck in cages living in their own urine and feces.


Wow... your post just reeks with compassion. My definition of a puppy mill is someone who breeds dogs for money. I care for dogs, I don't agree with breeding them in poor conditions, I don't AGREE with puppy mills. But I do believe ALL people deserve respect and compassion, REGARDLESS of what "rumours" are going around about them. Yes, you all care for DOGS, but where is your compassion for GRM and for what she is going through? Where is your EMPATHY? Anyone can come on here and start accusing YOU of operating a puppy mill. How would you feel if the forum decided to turn against you and the rumours started flying? This is gossip... I don't believe the original poster monomer or whatever his name is, is doing this for the saftey and wellbeing of golden retrievers. I believe his remarks and comments are vindictive and are for his own twisted personal gain. 

I agree that if someone is operating a puppy mill, something should be done to protect the wellbeing of the dogs. So phone your local animal rights organization, phone GRM, visit her farm if you're so concerned... gossiping and bashing her on an online forum is for YOUR enjoyment, not out of concern for dogs. If someone is considering purchasing a puppy from her then it is THEIR responsibility to do the research.... How will you feel if in the end this is all just hearsay and you have ruined an honest person's reputation by slandering her on the forum? 

I care for goldens, but I also care for people, and I don't think we need to chose between the two.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Sometimes a person who truly LOVES her dogs can get over her head... like Alex did, with her Elektra Salukis.

She sent me these photos, before I'd been there in daylight, to show me the beauty of her dogs (in her mind), and that's when I truly knew it was bad.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> Becky and Marsha have both been there....and neither saw what we're talking about..... Could Kimberly have really deceived them like that?


i dont know who becky and marsha are...? im not good with names on here.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

(and yes Salukis are supposed to be very thin, those dogs are not THAT thin for their breed, but still)

Here are some of those SAME DOGS in their new homes, that I placed


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Here's the thread regarding the fire:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/11147-golden-family-need.html


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

We do have to choose between the two. Dogs are innocent.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Sometimes a person who truly LOVES her dogs can get over her head... like Alex did, with her Elektra Salukis.
> 
> She sent me these photos, before I'd been there in daylight, to show me the beauty of her dogs (in her mind), and that's when I truly knew it was bad.



That just breaks my heart...I've seen situations like that before. It is hard for me to understand why they don't see it, but they honestly don't. My rescue, Duke, who I've mentioned before...he's a product of a old woman that claims to love her dogs...she's got over 50, but she just doesn't understand she's breeding a genetic eye defect, the dogs are suffering from dry eye, getting no care and going blind. But she would and does believe she loves her dogs. On the upside, she won't take them out and shoot them, she just doesn't want to give them up.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

foreveramber said:


> i dont know who becky and marsha are...? im not good with names on here.


telsmith1 is Becky, and Marshab1 is Marsha. They both went to GRM's and neither had anything bad to say....

It's hard to say what the real story is.....but I'm sure we could've had more dialog with GRM if this came out a different way. It's tough to have intelligent conversations when you've been pushed into a defensive stance....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Phoebe said:


> That just breaks my heart...I've seen situations like that before. It is hard for me to understand why they don't see it, but they honestly don't. My rescue, Duke, who I've mentioned before...he's a product of a old woman that claims to love her dogs...she's got over 50, but she just doesn't understand she's breeding a genetic eye defect, the dogs are suffering from dry eye, getting no care and going blind. But she would and does believe she loves her dogs. On the upside, she won't take them out and shoot them, she just doesn't want to give them up.
> 
> Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


Those Salukis took three years of my life and some 10 thousand dollars of mine and my ex boyfriend's money. 

They are the one thing in my whole **** life I am truly proud of.

It ruined me forever in dogs. The dog people hate me for doing what none of them had the balls to do, I guess. But I did it.

So in the end, all is well that ends well. Those dogs I placed are happy and their owners adore them.


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## Rosco's Mom (May 1, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> telsmith1 is Becky, and Marshab1 is Marsha. They both went to GRM's and neither had anything bad to say....
> 
> It's hard to say what the real story is.....but I'm sure we could've had more dialog with GRM if this came out a different way. It's tough to have intelligent conversations when you've been pushed into a defensive stance....


That's very true....


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> We do have to choose between the two. Dogs are innocent.


I agree with you Jenna, dogs do not have the voice to say I am unhappy or mistreated....humans on the other hand do....


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Rosco's Mom said:


> That's very true....


I do believe that because she's a member of our forum, she deserves to be heard out....


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

gisabella said:


> Wow... your post just reeks with compassion. My definition of a puppy mill is someone who breeds dogs for money. I care for dogs, I don't agree with breeding them in poor conditions, I don't AGREE with puppy mills. But I do believe ALL people deserve respect and compassion, REGARDLESS of what "rumours" are going around about them. Yes, you all care for DOGS, but where is your compassion for GRM and for what she is going through? Where is your EMPATHY? Anyone can come on here and start accusing YOU of operating a puppy mill. How would you feel if the forum decided to turn against you and the rumours started flying? This is gossip... I don't believe the original poster monomer or whatever his name is, is doing this for the saftey and wellbeing of golden retrievers. I believe his remarks and comments are vindictive and are for his own twisted personal gain.
> 
> I agree that if someone is operating a puppy mill, something should be done to protect the wellbeing of the dogs. So phone your local animal rights organization, phone GRM, visit her farm if you're so concerned... gossiping and bashing her on an online forum is for YOUR enjoyment, not out of concern for dogs. If someone is considering purchasing a puppy from her then it is THEIR responsibility to do the research.... How will you feel if in the end this is all just hearsay and you have ruined an honest person's reputation by slandering her on the forum?
> 
> I care for goldens, but I also care for people, and I don't think we need to chose between the two.


1. Never will I be accused of running a mill. Three dog count here...all spayed and neutered.

2. If a person is on this board and telling people she's a reputable breeder and people know she's not, then she should be challenged. If I come on here and tell you I'm as pretty as Julia Roberts...feel free to call me a liar.

3. If you actually understood my post, you'd understand I don't consider Kimberly a disgusting vile puppy miller and am willing to trust the posters that have visited her home. I asked her a question regarding the township's proposal, she answered it and that was good enough for me.

4. If you actually understood my post, you'd see I am worried that this discussion is too rough for a woman with a sick mom.

5. If you knew anything about millers and understood what is going on in those mills, you'd either be agreeing me that millers deserve to live exactly the way they force their dogs to or you wouldn't have a heart. I'm wondering where your compassion is.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I would like to hear her. She did post some, but then retreated. It is hard, it would be hard. Is there anything worse among golden retriever owners than this?

But this didn't start here. It started in her own neighborhood with her own neighbors. She's got to be tough enough to stand up for herself, she's made it this far.

I'd like to hear more from her. I want to see her stick with this here, with us. See it through.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

this is turning everyone against everyone... :doh:


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## Rosco's Mom (May 1, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> I do believe that because she's a member of our forum, she deserves to be heard out....


i definitely agree with this. But at the same time, if i was her, i don't know if i would. Everyone already has their preconceived ideas about her. would she be wasting her time? 

I'm not trying to defend her. and I'm not taking sides....I'm Switzerland. Neutral.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I would like to hear her. She did post some, but then retreated. It is hard, it would be hard. Is there anything worse among golden retriever owners than this?
> 
> But this didn't start here. It started in her own neighborhood with her own neighbors. She's got to be tough enough to stand up for herself, she's made it this far.
> 
> I'd like to hear more from her. I want to see her stick with this here, with us. See it through.


 
if i were her, i would not be able to deal with people like monomer who just keep picking and wont ever stop.

she doesnt have a chance to explain herself. she tried in her thread earlier today, and everyone immediately jumped on her with questions, and accusations.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

We are free to disagree and share our opinions. Can we be civil about it? I can be.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Maybe if you saw that **** I saw, with those Salukis in person, you'd understand why I am so passionate about this general topic. Go out in the trenches and clean this mess up yourself, with your bare hands, then condemn me for being passionate. Said with tears streaming down my face. I will never get over what I saw. Holding dogs as they died in my arms, knowing at last compassion. So easy to pretend it doesn't happen let someone else handle it, isn't it?


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

Phoebe said:


> 1. Never will I be accused of running a mill. Three dog count here...all spayed and neutered.
> 
> 2. If a person is on this board and telling people she's a reputable breeder and people know she's not, then she should be challenged. If I come on here and tell you I'm as pretty as Julia Roberts...feel free to call me a liar.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but I find your reasoning and your position hard to follow... You are obviously not understanding my post. That's quite unfortunate. Regardless, I do NOT have to agree with you that millers deserve to live exactly the way they force their dogs to... I do not believe in an "eye for an eye". I'm not a vindictive nor vengeful person. I was unaware that those qualities were a requirement for "having a heart" and "compassion". All and all, people are missing my point...and I'm done trying to defend my position..


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> We are free to disagree and share our opinions. Can we be civil about it? I can be.


 
yes, but theres always that one person who cant be nice...and everything blows up from there.. GRM is obviously going through a lot right now, i feel bad for her when she comes on here to explain herself (earlier) and people just accuse her.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Maybe if you saw that **** I saw, with those Salukis in person, you'd understand why I am so passionate about this general topic. Go out in the trenches and clean this mess up yourself, with your bare hands, then condemn me for being passionate. Said with tears streaming down my face. I will never get over what I saw. Holding dogs as they died in my arms, knowing at last compassion. So easy to pretend it doesn't happen let someone else handle it, isn't it?


 
wait, what?

did i say something i shouldn't have?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

gisabella said:


> I'm sorry but I find your reasoning and your position hard to follow... You are obviously not understanding my post. That's quite unfortunate. Regardless, I do NOT have to agree with you that millers deserve to live exactly the way they force their dogs to... I do not believe in an "eye for an eye". I'm not a vindictive nor vengeful person. I was unaware that those qualities were a requirement for "having a heart" and "compassion". All and all, people are missing my point...and I'm done trying to defend my position..


Like I said, hold a dying rack of bones dog with no teeth left and pus coming out of his nose from a rotten jaw and maggots in his ears... hold him and breath in his vile stench. Watch him dye and collapse in your arms, a sigh of relief, and then tell me the person who let that happen deserves compassion. Do it another ten times, and then tell me again. And as I said before, I cared for this person deeply, but I still cannot justify such cruelty.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

foreveramber said:


> wait, what?
> 
> did i say something i shouldn't have?


Not you in particular. Anyone who thinks I'm an ******* for being passionate about no puppy mills.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

gisabella said:


> I'm sorry but I find your reasoning and your position hard to follow... You are obviously not understanding my post. That's quite unfortunate. Regardless, I do NOT have to agree with you that millers deserve to live exactly the way they force their dogs to... I do not believe in an "eye for an eye". I'm not a vindictive nor vengeful person. I was unaware that those qualities were a requirement for "having a heart" and "compassion". All and all, people are missing my point...and I'm done trying to defend my position..


Its hard to have the outlook of an "eye for an eye" especially if its never happened to you or yours. People can walk around and say that everyone deserves a fair trial, and I agree with this, but if someone were to hurt a family member of yours, I think your outlook would change some....


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Not you in particular. Anyone who thinks I'm an ******* for being passionate about no puppy mills.


I think we as owners SHOULD be passionate about puppy mills and the rescues that help re-place these poor animals. They didn't ask for a life like that, they should not be in a life like that ....PERIOD


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Like I said, hold a dying rack of bones dog with no teeth left and pus coming out of his nose from a rotten jaw and maggots in his ears... hold him and breath in his vile stench. Watch him dye and collapse in your arms, a sigh of relief, and then tell me the person who let that happen deserves compassion. Do it another ten times, and then tell me again. And as I said before, I cared for this person deeply, but I still cannot justify such cruelty.


Where in my post did I say that I justify animal cruetly? I'm saying a person deserves to be heard, a person deserves to voice her position, GRM deserves to be treated with respect in that way - Does she have dogs that are dieing on her farm and is she starving them to death?? WOW rumours just keep flying and take on a life of their own! I feel like I've entered the twilight zone.


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

im not trying to be rude. i think this is being *blown out of proportion*. it has become this huge dramatic argument about a bunch of different things, and i really cant "follow" it anymore. :no:


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

Nicci831 said:


> Its hard to have the outlook of an "eye for an eye" especially if its never happened to you or yours. People can walk around and say that everyone deserves a fair trial, and I agree with this, but if someone were to hurt a family member of yours, I think your outlook would change some....


I can understand your anger, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Please don't try to convince me that I need to change my outlook on life and on treating others fairly.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I don't know Goldenrockmom,so I can't judge her but some people have met her and her dogs,confirming that they were happy and well taken care of.All her pictures,show gorgeous dogs!.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Just remembering the stuff I had to handle, alone, and very young, with nothing but abuse from dog people, saving these Salukis, has scarred me for life and I am now sobbing almost to the point of being physically sick remembering it. It really effed me up for life. I wouldn't wish it on the devil. Never forget what is out there in this world. 

Sabrina... nearly dead, from something so stupid as hookworms.

Althea, the pit bull bitch puppy I pulled out of the trash, scarred and bleeding.

Twenty Elektra Salukis (15 adults and a litter of puppies I whelped) who were bred in filthe and now live as royality, or in another place, of peace and oblivion, with no pain. I couldn't save them all.

Senior Goldens, obese with sores, or bald with callous from their bones on pavement.

Greyhounds worn to nothing from life on a track.

The Border Collie bitch and her pups I pulled of I-95.

This is one sick ass world, folks. Human beings do deserve compassion, and some were never taught better. Others still are so blinded by mental illness they cannot see the abuse before their own eyes.

I have nothing, but I give everything, walk the line for dogs, because I am alive because of dogs. I owe them my very existence, screwed up as it may well be. 

There it is, there I am, the rawest part of my heart. 

I want to believe more than ANYTHING that Goldrocks dogs have a grand life. The dogs are so beautiful, happy looking, and darling. I pray to the god I don't believe in that ALL the dogs there are in such condition, and want to believe it's so. 

Let it be so. Nothing would delight my broken heart more. I will never agree with that many litters, but that is personal opinon, not law. If the dogs are happy, well, and loved... if someone has found a way to maintain that many dogs well, then hell, she is my hero.

I hope it is so. I don't wish ill on anyone.

I simply have a lot of emotion, and passion, for the well being of dogs. They are my life, the reason I am here, the reason I live. They are everything to me.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

gisabella said:


> I can understand your anger, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Please don't try to convince me that I need to change my outlook on life and on treating others fairly.


My anger is not towards you, please understand this. I am not convincing you to change your outlook....but I am asking that you understand others, your asking that people that do horrible things be treated as humans and with respect, they are far from humans.....In this case I am not talking about GRM, but mills in general.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

gisabella said:


> .Does she have dogs that are dieing on her farm and is she starving them to death?? WOW rumours just keep flying and take on a life of their own! I feel like I've entered the twilight zone.



You know, I think you are the only one that has said that. I haven't seen one post where anything like that was said. Maybe I missed it. You're accusing me of being cruel..all I asked is why the neighbors had gone to the township and why she didn't accept the proposed settlement. It gave her an opportunity to explain what the article was really about, not animal cruelty, zoning laws. You are reading far more into the discussion than is actually there. In fact, I think in in more than one post, I've mentioned that the township is not seizing her dogs, therefore, they must be getting proper care.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

gisabella said:


> Where in my post did I say that I justify animal cruetly? I'm saying a person deserves to be heard, a person deserves to voice her position, GRM deserves to be treated with respect in that way - Does she have dogs that are dieing on her farm and is she starving them to death?? WOW rumours just keep flying and take on a life of their own! I feel like I've entered the twilight zone.


I never said she does! EVER, or even implied it. I am just saying that I take such situations in general very seriously. You said even a miller (not GRM, but an actual miller) deserves compassion. I disagree.


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Maybe if you saw that **** I saw, with those Salukis in person, you'd understand why I am so passionate about this general topic. Go out in the trenches and clean this mess up yourself, with your bare hands, then condemn me for being passionate. Said with tears streaming down my face. I will never get over what I saw. Holding dogs as they died in my arms, knowing at last compassion. So easy to pretend it doesn't happen let someone else handle it, isn't it?


 
((((((((((((((((((((((((ACC))))))))))))))))))))))))


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## foreveramber (Feb 25, 2007)

Old Gold Mum2001 said:


> ((((((((((((((((((((((((ACC))))))))))))))))))))))))


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

Nicci831 said:


> My anger is not towards you, please understand this. I am not convincing you to change your outlook....but I am asking that you understand others, your asking that people that do horrible things be treated as humans and with respect, they are far from humans.....In this case I am not talking about GRM, but mills in general.


This is where the misunderstanding is.. I was NOT asking that people who do horrible things be treated as humans and with respect. Has GRM been convicted of abusing and ill-treating animals? From what I had read it was rumored and she was being accused. Aren't people suppose to be innocent until proven guilty? People are falsely accused every day...there have been two or more posters who have visited her recently and said her dogs looked happy and healthy.


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## WoodysMum (Mar 13, 2007)

Im sure GRM is online now she's posted a new thread, just wondering why no one has asked her any questions. Just seems weird there's 100's of replies to this and none to hers.(Only just wondering)


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

sorry but I cannot spend anymore time discussing this... I am sorry you are all misunderstanding me. Gisabella-OUT.


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

WoodysMum said:


> Im sure GRM is online now she's posted a new thread, just wondering why no one has asked her any questions. Just seems weird there's 100's of replies to this and none to hers.(Only just wondering)


I was sitting here wondering the same thing

WHAT does anyone want to know?


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## Old Gold Mum2001 (Feb 25, 2007)

foreveramber said:


>


 
It's Hugs to Jenna!!!


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

WoodysMum said:


> Im sure GRM is online now she's posted a new thread, just wondering why no one has asked her any questions. Just seems weird there's 100's of replies to this and none to hers.(Only just wondering)


I asked her my question this morning. She answered it. 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## WoodysMum (Mar 13, 2007)

I keep out of all of this. I have my opinions but keep them to myself. I just thought it looked really weird everyone was wanting questions answered, and no one was asking them.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Kimberly, I have no questions. I got my answers when I visited you. I am so sorry that it has come to this.


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

Ok here is mine, why are you breeding with no clearances?


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## GoldRocksMom (Feb 9, 2007)

******************


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

Don't trust the neighbors either. We lived in a situation where one neighbor harrassed us until we finally moved away. All the other neighbors were so terrified of having him turn on them that they went along with anything he said.

My children were accused of: pointing a gun at a neighbor girl; stealing mail out of that same girl's mailbox; stealing corn, we received arson threats regarding our barn and horses nearly every day, the police were always being called on us. And you know what? It was he said/she said. We never did anything to this man or his family. He decided, since he was poor, that we were rich and he could act out his jealousy.

If any group of people had listened only to his side of the story or thought that because the neighbors had formed an opinion we were automaticly suspect, then we'd be in the same boat as GRM. I can guarantee you he was wrong. We'd never had a neighbor problems before and not another one since. 

ACC, I'm sorry for the suffering you have witnessed and that you continue to suffer from that witnessing. But the issues you faced are not happening at GRM place. You must keep that separate.

I say again that if someone looking for a puppy asks about GRM as a breeder, they should be pointed to the AKC. That is the governing body for breeders. They can answer any questions a prospective buyer has and point them to the local GR club for more local information. Any specific information regarding a particular breeder's breeding practices belongs in the breeder's forum. 

This should not be disected on this forum. I feel I've been to mob scene in which a person has been torn to shreds much the way a pack of dogs attacks their victim.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I never said the **** I saw was at Kim's house. Just Gisabella said even a horrible miller (NOT GRM!!!!!!!!!!!!) deserved compassion. I will NEVER agree with that.


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I never said the **** I saw was at Kim's house. Just Gisabella said even a horrible miller (NOT GRM!!!!!!!!!!!!) deserved compassion. I will NEVER agree with that.


please do not misquote me. I said even if GRM is in fact a miller (who I define as someone who breeds dogs for money) she deserves to be respected and her side of the story deserves to be heard. I did not say a horrible miller who abuses dogs and starves them to death. Get your facts straight.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Okay, then I misunderstood, and for that I apologize. Obviously that's a touchy issue for me given my experiences.


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Okay, then I misunderstood, and for that I apologize. Obviously that's a touchy issue for me given my experiences.


I can understand that, and I'm sorry that you had such an awful experience... honestly I can see your passion for dogs and why you feel so strongly about the topic. I think we have more in common than what these posts show - it's easy to misunderstand others based on text - when the pragmatics of language are removed. I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, it was not my intention. :curtain:


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## Nicci831 (Aug 9, 2007)

I think this is just gone off the original topic at hand and everyone got upset, we all misunderstand posts sometimes =)


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## Judi (Feb 26, 2007)

She is in the chatroom at 8:50.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed it is off topic and I apologize to everyone here for getting overly emotional about an experience in my life that has nothing to do with Kim.

It's just hard not to sometimes.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

gisabella said:


> Wow... your post just reeks with compassion. *My definition of a puppy mill is someone who breeds dogs for money*. I care for dogs, I don't agree with breeding them in poor conditions, I don't AGREE with puppy mills. But I do believe ALL people deserve respect and compassion, REGARDLESS of what "rumours" are going around about them. Yes, you all care for DOGS, but where is your compassion for GRM and for what she is going through? Where is your EMPATHY? Anyone can come on here and start accusing YOU of operating a puppy mill. How would you feel if the forum decided to turn against you and the rumours started flying? This is gossip... I don't believe the original poster monomer or whatever his name is, is doing this for the saftey and wellbeing of golden retrievers. I believe his remarks and comments are vindictive and are for his own twisted personal gain.
> 
> I agree that if someone is operating a puppy mill, something should be done to protect the wellbeing of the dogs. So phone your local animal rights organization, phone GRM, visit her farm if you're so concerned... gossiping and bashing her on an online forum is for YOUR enjoyment, not out of concern for dogs. If someone is considering purchasing a puppy from her then it is THEIR responsibility to do the research.... How will you feel if in the end this is all just hearsay and you have ruined an honest person's reputation by slandering her on the forum?
> 
> I care for goldens, but I also care for people, and I don't think we need to chose between the two.


 
I was off line all day yesterday so am just now reading the posts that were made yesterday.

So your defination of a puppy mill is anyone that breeds for money. I had 2 litters some years ago. I DID sell the puppies. So I am a puppy mill???? Get real!!!

GRM - Your pics and posts that have been on here before are beautiful. I would definately have questions if I were wanting a puppy from you, but I would have questions for ANY breeder I went to. I had many questions for Jazzy's breeder too. I still maintain that there are 3 sides to any story - your side, my side and the RIGHT side. Innocent until proven guilty! I am so very sorry you are going through all this at the same time you are going through this with you mom. You are in my prayers

As for Monomer -- I personally think he is only trying to make people aware on this forum because many come here to look for a breeder. If he knows things about ANYONE here who breeds then wouldn't he be remiss if her DIDN'T say something?

Jenna, what you went through with those poor dogs has scarred you for the rest of your life! I am so very sorry but at the same time I am gald that those poor animals had someone like you to stand up for them and care for them. I'm with you on the puppy mill thing. ALL puppy mills should be shut down regardless if it my own relative that is running them. I'd do everything in my power to shut them all down. I think the question here is though - is Kimberly actually a puppy mill? That question still has to be answered.

Jazzys Mom


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't think you bred your dogs JUST to make money, though, did you? So then by the money definition, you wouldn't be a miller


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

No, I didn't breed them for the money at all. Bred them because I wanted to breed them. It just seemed that Gisabella's post lumped everyone that has ever breed dogs into the puppy mill group & that would include ALL breeders

Jazzys Mom


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

In my mind a puppy mill is any place that churns out a large number of puppies with little to no concern about their health or where they end up. In those situations dogs are livestock and each puppy born is money in the bank. The kind of places that dump the dogs the minute they are no longer "productive". Like those "farms" who supply pet stores.


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

You know what? I am tired of trying to defend my post on this board. I stated my OPINION, why are you all attacking me? Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean you have to be so defensive. I am beginning to think that this board is NOT a place where I feel welcome, and it's a shame because I love chatting about my golden retriever, but I will NOT return if I feel I need to continually defend myself. This is ridiculous.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> In my mind a puppy mill is any place that churns out a large number of puppies with little to no concern about their health or where they end up. In those situations dogs are livestock and each puppy born is money in the bank. The kind of places that dump the dogs the minute they are no longer "productive". Like those "farms" who supply pet stores.


I agree with your definition. It's also what, in my mind, separates Kimberly from what many of us picture as a puppy mill. From all I've seen and from what I believe, Kimberly truly cares about every one of her dogs and puppies.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

RickGibbs said:


> I agree with your definition. It's also what, in my mind, separates Kimberly from what many of us picture as a puppy mill. From all I've seen and from what I believe, Kimberly truly cares about every one of her dogs and puppies.


Well said Rick


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

gisabella said:


> You know what? I am tired of trying to defend my post on this board. I stated my OPINION, why are you all attacking me? Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean you have to be so defensive. I am beginning to think that this board is NOT a place where I feel welcome, and it's a shame because I love chatting about my golden retriever, but I will NOT return if I feel I need to continually defend myself. This is ridiculous.


If you were referring to my post (not sure if you were...just that yours followed mine) I was not thinking of you or anything you have posted when I wrote it. I just had to go back and see what your opinion was so just know this was in no way a direct response to you.

And I think everyone is entitled to their opinions. You said what you felt and I completely respect that!


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

gisabella said:


> You know what? I am tired of trying to defend my post on this board. I stated my OPINION, why are you all attacking me? Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean you have to be so defensive. I am beginning to think that this board is NOT a place where I feel welcome, and it's a shame because I love chatting about my golden retriever, but I will NOT return if I feel I need to continually defend myself. This is ridiculous.


I don't think anyone is trying to attack you or be too hard on you. It's just a touchy subject. I wouldn't take any of the questions or comments too personally.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

If you think about hot button issues, there is usually this build up of emotion...then a great crescendo where everyone is screaming and throwing around nasty words...but then it begins to calm down again and the real issues can be discussed. Gisabella, I think you just got caught in that crescendo of anger.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I wasn't angry at you... I was just upset bc I misunderstood you. I thought you had said that someone who does to dogs what was done to dogs I have rescued deserves compassion. Maybe they do- I don't think so, though. But that doesn't mean I don't like YOU or LOVE hearing about your beautiful Golden boy.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I wasn't angry at you... I was just upset bc I misunderstood you. I thought you had said that someone who does to dogs what was done to dogs I have rescued deserves compassion. Maybe they do- I don't think so, though. But that doesn't mean I don't like YOU or LOVE hearing about your beautiful Golden boy.


I understand what she's saying to a point.... But I don't think a person deserves compassion, just because they're human.

Not many here would argue that Michael Vick deserves compassion, after what he's done.....but he's human. I've even taken some heat for suggesting I hope he can turn his life around once he gets out of prison....


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Gisabella hope you will stick it out. These topics get heated sometimes but I don;t think anyone is really ever trying to get personal with someone. It is just differences of opinion. 9


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

I think you may have been referring to my post about anyone who breeds dogs is a puppy mill. 

Sorry if you feel you have to defend your stand. I just wanted to get it clear as to just what you meant by that as there are many of us here that breed or have bred in the past. So, in your opinion that makes us a puppy mill? Or, did you mean that people who breed solely for profit and not for the love of the breed? Please don't get so defensive - its only a discussion

Jazzys Mom


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Jazzys Mom said:


> I think you may have been referring to my post about anyone who breeds dogs is a puppy mill.
> 
> Sorry if you feel you have to defend your stand. I just wanted to get it clear as to just what you meant by that as there are many of us here that breed or have bred in the past. So, in your opinion that makes us a puppy mill? Or, did you mean that people who breed solely for profit and not for the love of the breed? Please don't get so defensive - its only a discussion
> 
> Jazzys Mom


Wow I missed that I guess I didn;t know that was what was being asked. Being a breeder I might like to know that of anyone cause there are alot of people who think that way about us.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> In my mind a puppy mill is any place that churns out a large number of puppies with little to no concern about their health or where they end up. In those situations dogs are livestock and each puppy born is money in the bank. The kind of places that dump the dogs the minute they are no longer "productive". Like those "farms" who supply pet stores.





RickGibbs said:


> I agree with your definition. It's also what, in my mind, separates Kimberly from what many of us picture as a puppy mill. From all I've seen and from what I believe, Kimberly truly cares about every one of her dogs and puppies.


I've got a really bad cable internet conection right now and could not log on at all yesterday and was reading as a guest. Which is why I did not respond to anything yesterday.

I agree with both of these posts. I've been to Kimberly's and yes she is a high volume breeder but I could not classify her as a puppy mill. She cares too much and where some of us share our home with our dog(s), I think the dogs share their home with Kimberly.

She had about 20 hours notice from 10pm to 6pm that I was coming out to visit. I met 4 other people there that help out (I think a couple of them live there). So yes she probably had time to clean things up especially if they worked all night. But there would have been signs of that. And something she couldn't have done overnight is train, fatten up, and make the dogs appear happy. And what we have seen in pictures is exactly what I saw in person. So I have no doubt that she is good owner. Her dogs are her life. the house and yard didn't smell and there was very little barking. And having seen all the fencing I don't see how a dog could get out. but things do happen. We have had other members post that their dogs got loose.

As far as clearances, I only know what she has told me. I have not seen current clearances. But I would see them before I bought a puppy or I wouldn't buy. My mother called a couple of years ago and was told if approved as a buyer puppies were $1000 and included microchipping, food for at least 2 weeks, etc. Not an unusual amount in the southeastern part of our state. I have called 2 breeders that were recommended to me on this board and was told $1200 & 1400. Others that were recommended told me $700 - 1000. 

This post is not to defend her breeding because I don't know enough to do that. But is to state that I don't think people need to worry about her dogs. They appear to be well taken care of.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I agree the dogs appear healthy and happy. And are pretty Goldens to boot.

My primary concern was always with clearances, and I DO disagree with high volume breeding, no matter how well it is done. That's just my opinion.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

TheHooch said:


> Gisabella hope you will stick it out. These topics get heated sometimes but I don;t think anyone is really ever trying to get personal with someone. It is just differerted sta. nces of opinion. 9


I agree with Hooch Gisabella. I've seen this happen at least a million times since I've been here. Look at what has happened to Monomer. People just don't realize that this forum did not start when they joined. 

Monomer has been an advocate for ethical breeding standards on the GRF since I have been a member here. His posts have always been very thoughtful, and very carefully researched. In this case, he took on a very unpopular fight and has been raked over the coals because of it. I can assure you, this is not something new for Monomer. He did it, because he believes he is doing what is right, and is intended to help members searching for new puppies.

I was taken to task myself several weeks ago (via PM) by a member who thought my posts supporting ethical breeding activities were directed at them. Well, anyone who has been here for some time, knows I have always done that. It is not something that I started because of this controversy.

Stick with us. We want to hear your point of view. If everybody agreed with each other here, it would be a very dull place indeed.


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## gisabella (May 23, 2007)

This post is directed to those who are misreading my original post -

This is the last post I will be making on this thread. No, again, you have misunderstood me. 

I do NOT believe that people who breed dogs all operate puppy mills. I *purchased* my dog from a breeder. If that is what I thought than I would have been purchasing Caper from a puppy mill. 

Again, I DO NOT believe that all breeders who sell their dogs or puppies and make a profit off of it are operating puppy mills. 

Someone was accusing GRM of operating a puppy mill. My original post was asking people to *respect* GRM and let her voice her opinion and her side of the story without jumping to conclusions. I had said in my oringinal post, something along the lines of, even *if* she was operating a puppy mill (and breeding lots of dogs per year only for profit and not for the care of the breed or the dogs) then she should still be allowed to express her side of the story and have a chance to defend herself.

I have NEVER said people who abuse dogs or murder people deserve compassion. I was simply saying that people were making all sorts of assumptions about GRM without even asking for her side of the story. THAT IS ALL.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

That's okay- we still love ya and want ya here! 

We don't have to agree on everything. And it's SOOOO easy to misunderstand on a forum.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

gisabella said:


> You know what? I am tired of trying to defend my post on this board. I stated my OPINION, why are you all attacking me? Just because I do not agree with you doesn't mean you have to be so defensive. I am beginning to think that this board is NOT a place where I feel welcome, and it's a shame because I love chatting about my golden retriever, but I will NOT return if I feel I need to continually defend myself. This is ridiculous.



Well you are certainly welcome on this board. You did come on this thread and chew me out for my lack of empathy for millers because I said I'd like to see them locked up in crates and allowed to live in their waste. Really...it's not like I've actually got human crates stacked in my garage and any miller is ever going to suffer the same fate as their poor dogs. We clearly have not had similar experiences and we have different views. Your welcome to your opinion in this matter but I'm welcome to mine as well. Can't we just call it a slapfest, leave it at that and no hard feelings?

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> I agree with Hooch Gisabella. I've seen this happen at least a million times since I've been here. Look at what has happened to Monomer. People just don't realize that this forum did not start when they joined.
> 
> Monomer has been an advocate for ethical breeding standards on the GRF since I have been a member here. His posts have always been very thoughtful, and very carefully researched. In this case, he took on a very unpopular fight and has been raked over the coals because of it. I can assure you, this is not something new for Monomer. He did it, because he believes he is doing what is right, and is intended to help members searching for new puppies.
> 
> ...



I agree with this also. I have always found Monomer's posts very informative and I know that he often plays devil's advocate which gets a good discussion going and makes it even more informative. And I can count on him as having researched before he posts and sometimes even as he is posting.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Phoebe said:


> Really...it's not like I've actually got human crates stacked in my garage


Oh stop it...I've seen pictures of your garage...:bowl::bowl::bowl:


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

So much has been said over and over again. When is this thread going to be closed? How many other members feelings are we going to hurt? We've lost so many people in the past few weeks. Maybe not everyone misses them, but some of us do.

Go ahead, hit me with your best shot...


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Did you feel that Kimm? I just smacked my screen.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

gisabella said:


> This post is directed to those who are misreading my original post -
> 
> This is the last post I will be making on this thread. No, again, you have misunderstood me.
> 
> ...



You chewed me out about that but I did NOT accuse GRM of being a puppymill. I asked her a question about the newspaper article and why her neighbors were angry and why she did not accept the offer the township gave her. Her problem was not that she was accused of being a mill, it was that she was operating a commercial breeding facility in an area not zoned for it. So if any of this above is directed at me, you did not follow my posts.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't think we're losing anyone- this is a heated topic


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

vrocco1 said:


> Did you feel that Kimm? I just smacked my screen.


Felt it all the way in CT.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> Oh stop it...I've seen pictures of your garage...:bowl::bowl::bowl:


shhh...I've been building those crates all day. 

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I don't think we're losing anyone- this is a heated topic


I suppose, but I almost feel like the old saying...Beating a dead horse. 

I'm very crabby...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

All any of us have said is that we have some unanswered questions...

I did say puppy mill when frustrated and I am sorry I did.

But *I* am the one who defines a puppy mill as a high volume, money motivated operation, be it clean or be it hell on earth.

If you breed tons of dogs to sell, then IMO you are a puppy mill. No one has to agree, that's my view.

You can be a really gross filthey one (which Kim is NOT AT ALL IMO) or a nice, clean, smooth operation (she is this, IMO). Still a miller (farmer) of puppies to make money... and IMO that's not somthing I support, as is breeding dogs who FAILED their clearances

(case in point OFA: Display OFA Records )


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Bear in mind I have not yet read anything on the forum today except my PMs. I have not been able to visit the forum much as my work load is preventing me from doing so. I just spent the last hour and a half writing a posting and then lost it all due to a misplaced keystroke. However it is so important to me to get this all out I will try to reproduce it again... here goes...

*HISTORY*
Last February I started a thread about searching for Michigan (and mid-west) breeders. I contacted a large number of breeders in Michigan and GoldRocks was one. I remember our conversation, which I recalled as pleasant. A couple of months later someone posts to that thread something disturbing about GRM. Curious, I did a search on GRM and found her first entrance into the forum was to completely destroy another breeder, who has no association with the forum at all. The thread, started in November, was about condolences for a horrible tragedy about loss of life and about giving… until GRM posted, then it turned to nasty accusations without a shred of coo-berating proof whatsoever. She spoke of dog theft in which she painted herself as a savior as she admittedly took someone else’s dogs. After that thread it appears she quit posting for a time (couple months) then I found her most recent postings and learn a controversy had surrounded her centering about AKC banning, breeding dogs under a year of age, no OFA health certs… I was sure there was some misunderstanding and decided to ask point-blank for answers. What I got back was a tirade of gibberish that was mostly cut-n-pasted from other websites, and it spoke of things not having much correlation to the questions I’d asked… however she did ask me several questions in return. I responded completely, simply and truthfully to her questions… but I never got any answers back to my original questions. I let it go. PointGold had joined and it became obvious those two were locked into some sort of conflict that extended far back before this forum. I kept my distance.

In July GRM PMed me as she had wanted to attend the Muskegon dog beach meet-up… Great! I had no problem and welcomed her presence. She arrived with her son, a friend (a forum member) and a number of Goldens… and she was bearing wonderful little gifts for all the dogs… smart little neckerchiefs with name tags just for the occasion attached. I greeted her and her dogs as did everyone else. She spoke very little while she was there and then left after about a half-hour. I did witness two very strange things happening concerning her dogs but I never uttered a single word to anyone about it except to my wife (on the way home) and one other forum member a month later in a PM in response to something not concerning GRM. Because I’ve never mentioned it in the past, I will continue to keep quiet about it but I’ll just bet those who were at the beach that day can guess. In the following weeks I assembled everyone’s pictures on CDs and sent everyone a copy including GRM. That is the last I had had to do with anything concerning GRM until…

Late last month a newbie posted an intro thread saying how happy s/he was to have finally found GRM as now s/he will be able to get his/her ‘paperwork’ straightened out. I was happy for him/her because now I thought the whole AKC-banning and missing OFA certs could be now be put to rest when GRM sends him/her the paperwork. Boy was I wrong. BAM! I got hit with a barrage of nasty PM’s from GRM, full of accusations of conspiracy with me as the orchestrator behind a vast conspiracy against GRM. Each PM got increasingly more spooky as her paranoia began showing itself in one delusional accusation after another. I replied once but the PMs did not stop coming. She was really spooking me out as her imagination continued running further away with her in each successive PM. I replied again, this time very angrily to scare her off. Finally I started that thread ("GRM quit harassing me"). If you are being stalked down a dark alley what do you do? You immediately go into a well-lit public place and then start screaming “bloody-murder”… it has two functions. If the stalker quickly runs away, you have your proof you were being stalked… it also functions to scare the stalker enough to maybe stop targeting you. My well-lit public gathering was the open forum and I did yell “bloody-murder” ...and know what? It did work as after GRM read it she contacted Rick to closed (read as bury) that thread… she never responded because I had the PMs as proof of just how whack-out she’d become over that one innocence remark in that thread. It was at that moment I realize this woman is really hiding something.

For the next two days after that ‘GRM quit harassing me’ thread I was flooded with emails and PMs from people on the forum. However it was the first-hand and second-hand stories many had to tell that really surprised me. For the first time I became aware that there was a number of active forum members (almost all were not affiliated with one another) who felt so intimidated by GRM and her sycophants that they were afraid to post their concerns, knowledge or experiences with her. Up until then I had only known of about 2 people with concerns… now it was up to about a dozen. And some of the things I was told I found quite disturbing (in some cases down-right sickening). I was so concerned with this dichotomy in the forum and all the distress it was causing that as a solution I came up with the Puppy Buyer’s Fact Checker to try and stop the bickering and keep some very knowledgeable contributing members from completely abandoning the forum. It seemed to work for a while…

ACC had started a series of breeder-oriented threads in which specific breeding practices could be discussed in a civil and intelligent manner. People were finally feeling free to speak their opinions without accusations flying around and having it degenerate into a mêlée of foul epithets. That is until the thread asking if breeding numerous litters per year was a sound breeding practice. I posted my thoughts just like everyone else. Then suddenly out of nowhere GRM posts attacking my character first before launching into a spiel that concludes with her claiming to not make a profit off of producing 12-15 litters per year. Okay, so then I ask the next logical question of why then would you do it if its all work and no profit? Especially in-light of not participating in any proving activities to improve the breed. Dead silence… no response. ACC later asks the question yet again… more dead silence. Then I ask another question based upon her previous post (same thread) that its an acceptable practice to have x-rays taken but to not submit to the OFA for cert for a while… something she had admitted to doing in another thread several months earlier. I asked what would be the reason someone would NOT want to send in those x-rays until long after the pups were sold and gone?… then it occurred to me unless of course there were no x-rays ever taken to begin with. Again no response… she read the thread, I watched her on Who’s Online. At this point my suspicions really went through the roof and I decided to do a little leg-work to see what was really going on.

I started with searching for an article I had only previously heard about written up in the Flint-Journal. After reading it I was as shocked as anyone and feared that much of the hearsay I’d been entrusted with maybe wasn’t so far fetched. I viewed documents of court judgments against her in two different counties. I knew something was very wrong at this point… however I’m ashamed now to admit, I also felt the intimidation factor others had felt on the forum. I still gave GRM some benefit of doubt as I went ahead and recommended her services to someone who PMed me to ask my honest opinion. Then came last Thursday as animal control raided her premises… I freaked when I heard. Especially in-light of MY RECOMMENDATION! for someone to use her kennels, I felt awful. I then read articles in her local paper, called the township for more details, and further searched court records at my own expense. I could no longer discount the horrible stories I had been told by so many sources. I was truly disgusted with so many on this forum and sick that I’d done not done enough to raise the awareness level.

Finally, timm’s thread about the disappointment of Miss New Jersey and the apparent disappearance or ignored communication attempts sent to GRM. I just had to tell him that it wasn’t their fault, GRM was tied up in a legal battle trying to convince the county she was NOT running a commercial kennel yet her postings on this forum say otherwise. I thought merely posting the latest news article would tell them just enough of the story that they would get it. Wrong, no one got it and GRMs disappearance was still in question… I gave a little hint… still no one understood the situation… finally I just said it, she was having legal problems and it wouldn’t be in her best interest to remain in contact with the forum or its members. After all she is trying to prove she does not operate a commercial kennel. However some of the sharper forum members then saw a little further into the article and… the rest of the story it seems everyone now knows.

*HEARSAY*
Ever play the ‘telephone game’? It’s where one person whispers a story into someone else’s ear and that person then whispers it in another person's ear, and so on and so on. After the story’s been secretly re-told 8 or 9 times the last person says it out loud to the laughter of all, as the story has changed so much as to barely be recognizable. I played a similar game 25 years ago in college and learned how the re-telling of an event can become distorted after just a mere 5-6 tellings. This is not because of any intentional lies or bending of the truth but rather demonstrates the failings of speech and language in the transmission of thoughts and images from one person’s brain to the next. A first-hand description is the first telling of an event (the origin)… a second-hand (and so on) telling is hearsay. Because distortions are a natural part of second-hand stories, hearsay in not admissible in our courts of law. How ever ‘reliable’ one perceives hearsay to be depends entirely upon that individual’s criteria. For me, it relies upon how close the hearsay is to the source and how well I know or trust the person providing it. It’s a judgment call but the one thing you can be sure of is that it will almost surely contain some distortions. 

In the last two months I have had a ton of hearsay provided me about GRM… in addition, I also have had some first-hand knowledge related to me… none of it speaks good of GRM… some of it heart-wenching, some of it quite sickening. If I try to re-tell any of it (even the first-hand info) it will all be hearsay. Not only is that not right because by definition it WILL include some distortions but it may also be considered slander because distortion of the facts could well occur in the re-telling. So, though I know about a lot of horrible things that were said about GRM, none of it can be repeated on the open forum… so please, don’t even ask me.

*THE FACTS*
*In GRMs favor:*
GRMs (often convoluted) explanations for everything… AKC banning, missing OFA certs, taking of Lakeland’s dogs, neighbors' complaints, township’s ordinances, etc etc etc

The reviews of three forum members who visited her property. These visits were relatively short (hour(s)) visits that were pre-arranged with as much as 3 days (possibly more) lead time. I do NOT for one second doubt their first-hand telling of their impressions and experiences. In fact, I believed (and still do) so much so, I even made my recommendation for GRM’s services to a forum member based upon those wonderful reviews.

Do you know any spouse or child abusers? No! you say?... I’ll bet you do, you just don’t know it. I’ll bet you even work with them and probably have even visited their homes on several occasions. Its just that they are able to keep those activities well hidden. However neighbors stand a much more likely chance of witnessing these ‘secret’ behaviors since they live next door 24/7. So how can 3 forum members be observing one thing while neighbors report observing something entirely different. I don’t see a conflict here and I don’t believe anyone is lying about their observations either. I believe everyone is telling the truth only some have a better vantage point and far more opportunities to see EVERYTHING.

*Against GRM:*
52 dogs on the property
100+ puppies produced a year on average
Missing OFA certs
Dysplastic dogs being bred multiple times
GRM entering known false OFA results using the honor system of the k9data
GRM banned from the k9data.com for falsifying data
Breeding dogs at under a year of age
AKC banning for 10 years + $2000 fine
Multiple judgments in multiple counties against GRM
Levan Animal Hospital judgment against GRM
Service dog agent saying dogs are unsuitable for service
Officer saying Goldens were chained to vehicles and left in the rain
Neighbors banding together in fear of retribution but yet willing to speak-out
Township lawsuits
Property raided by animal control multiple times- yes, last Thursday was not the first time by a long shot


These are all facts gleaned from records made available to the public. There is no dispute about these facts… only GRMs explanations for everything. This is NOT a case of a simple “he said/ she said” argument… on the contrary its more like “they said, the courts ruled and recorded into public record/she said”. Do you seriously believe there is a conspiracy composed of law enforcement, animal control, a service dog agency, the newspapers, the AKC, her neighbors, the township and county clerks and attorneys, breeders, many of our forum members, an Animal Hospital, k9data, etc… oh yes, and finally all these conspirators are coordinating all their lies with me, the master-mind of this whole conspiracy operation? And what’s my motivation again? Don’t you see how ludicrous this whole thing sounds when you look at the whole of it?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Remember I did not make any of this up… None of it is my creation… it is all there and much more, in the public record for all to see and access… and its there for a reason. Its to protect people from emotional and financial hurt. I can’t believe there are those on this forum who believe the information should be buried and not on display for our members (and future members). Most people will go 20-years without ever having set foot in a court room… and this would include most breeders. This woman lives her life in court… so now, why is that? Because it’s all a huge conspiracy to persecute this poor woman who just wants to love all Goldens? Pulleeeze people are you that naive? People on other forums are laughing at our extreme gullibility, I don’t want our forum to be a joke. Forget I ever said anything about GRM… and now JUST LOOK AT AND CONSIDER THE FACTS RECORDED IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN!!!! Its just so obvious that there is a problem with this breeder somewhere and its hurting puppies and innocent people.

I'd like to hope I've accomplished at least one thing here. I'd like to believe I have raise the awareness level on the forum so that members now realize that giving 'blind trust' in any individual you 'meet' on any forum is not a smart policy to follow but rather one should fact check sources before they begin to make any financial or emotional commitments. Thus, one tool the forum provides is the Puppy Buyer's Fact Checker.

This is by far my longest posting ever on any forum and essentially I wrote it up twice! I'm tired and exhausted by this whole affair. This is my final posting about GRM as I've said all I could and those of you that are still convinced its a bad thing to reveal the truth or believe in conspiracy theories concerning this... all I can say to you is, some people will see only what they want to see regardless of what is actually before them. I'm finished here.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Honestly, I felt that the discussion has gotten more civil than it started out....but the fact that Kimberly isn't coming on to give her side of the story and/or answer questions, it does seem to be beating a dead horse a bit....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Monomer, don't leave the forum for goodness sakes. Be true to you... IMO you have done nothing wrong.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I hear you ACC, but if someone doesn't want to provide answers to questions, it is their right not to provide them. You can ask 1000 times and you may be met with silence 1000 times (beating a dead horse). It may bring about whispers, but if a person can withstand the heat, then so be it. 

If anyone is concerned about new buyers researching MI breeders and Goldrocks, all one has to do now is Google Goldrocks and many of the posts on this forum come up. When a new buyer is reseaching and wants to learn more, I think they will be very happy to see a forum where a breeder has posted. They'll read all of the posts and formulate their own opinion.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Monomer...I mentioned "he said, she said" That had nothing to do with you. I hope you realize that. My using those words were not gender related at all.


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

vrocco1 said:


> I agree with Hooch Gisabella. I've seen this happen at least a million times since I've been here. Look at what has happened to Monomer. People just don't realize that this forum did not start when they joined.
> 
> Monomer has been an advocate for ethical breeding standards on the GRF since I have been a member here. His posts have always been very thoughtful, and very carefully researched. In this case, he took on a very unpopular fight and has been raked over the coals because of it. I can assure you, this is not something new for Monomer. He did it, because he believes he is doing what is right, and is intended to help members searching for new puppies.
> 
> .


Personally, I didn't have a problem with Monomer for posting this information. When I was looking for Phoebe a few years back, I appreciated the heads up I received from people with regard to some breeders. The timing with this issue is what makes it uncomfortable. When somebody's Mom is in the hospital getting treated for cancer, everything else takes a backseat. I will never forget when my father was ill...it was all I could handle. I do believe when anyone comes on a dog board and claims to be a reputable breeder, they should be prepared to back that claim up when questioned, and typically, a confident breeder that is doing things right will be able to answer those questions without getting defensive. I remind myself when I see how defensive GRM is, that she has a lot of things happening right now. Obviously, the township and our local newspaper do not hold back when people are dealing with an illness in the family. I think it was Rick that said something to the effect that if the information supplied by Monomer did not involve a well liked member of this board, people would not have minded the heads up.

Jan, Seamus, Gracie, Phoebe & Duke


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Monomer, don't leave the forum for goodness sakes. Be true to you... IMO you have done nothing wrong.


Oh so sorry to give you the wrong impression... I'm just going home (I'm still at work). I just meant I'm finished with 'you know what'... and I will not speak anymore about it. I promised Joe.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

monomer said:


> Oh so sorry to give you the wrong impression... I'm just going home (I'm still at work). I just meant I'm finished with 'you know what'... and I will not speak anymore about it. I promised Joe.


You just made me wet my pants!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Kimm said:


> Monomer...I mentioned "he said, she said" That had nothing to do with you. I hope you realize that. My using those words were not gender related at all.


I don't know what you are talking about... I've been so busy lately I've not read anything past page 8 or 9 I think. Relax Kimmi.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Kimm said:


> Monomer...I mentioned "he said, she said" That had nothing to do with you. I hope you realize that. My using those words were not gender related at all.


I used the same words when I e-mailed him earlier, not even thinking that they could be taken the wrong way.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Kimm said:


> I hear you ACC, but if someone doesn't want to provide answers to questions, it is their right not to provide them. You can ask 1000 times and you may be met with silence 1000 times (beating a dead horse). It may bring about whispers, but if a person can withstand the heat, then so be it.
> 
> If anyone is concerned about new buyers researching MI breeders and Goldrocks, all one has to do now is Google Goldrocks and many of the posts on this forum come up. When a new buyer is reseaching and wants to learn more, I think they will be very happy to see a forum where a breeder has posted. They'll read all of the posts and formulate their own opinion.


And that is the important thing the info is out there so that someone looking can find it and it is current. So much of what you see online is old and outdated.

And these hot topic discussions do give a lot of info. I've learned more reading thru here then in all the PMs and e-mails I've sent looking for info on GRM.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

gisabella said:


> This post is directed to those who are misreading my original post -
> 
> This is the last post I will be making on this thread. No, again, you have misunderstood me.
> 
> ...


Thank you for clarifying that.

Jazzys Mom


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

My posting about the OFA Severe dog who was bred has been moved to the correct thread.


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