# Ring Gate Trials



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

100% of our trials both indoors and out have gates for ring barriers, except for some inside shows which have part of the ring up against a wall. Even in those cases -- especially if Utility A is in the ring -- they will put a ring gate up against the wall for go outs.
I personally do not train the dog to go to a stanchion so I don't pay it much attention, but a lot of people do, luckily with ring gates they typically use four gates per ring side so you end up with a stanchion in the middle. Does this help?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> 100% of our trials both indoors and out have gates for ring barriers, except for some inside shows which have part of the ring up against a wall. Even in those cases -- especially if Utility A is in the ring -- they will put a ring gate up against the wall for go outs.
> I personally do not train the dog to go to a stanchion so I don't pay it much attention, but a lot of people do, luckily with ring gates they typically use four gates per ring side so you end up with a stanchion in the middle. Does this help?


Yup. That helps, thanks!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

it must be area specific; here even if there are ring gates they don't worry about where the stantion is, and people who have trained the dog to go to the station often have a problem because it's rarely in the middle in a show. It's also common for them to go toward a blank wall, with no ring gates, because a lot of our rings don't have gates all the way around and they don't normally do the go-outs toward the gallery, they do them toward the blank wall instead.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Well, since Quiz refuses to speak on the subject, I can't say for sure what his thoughts are when I set the mark! 

I started out being hell bent on making sure he was just learning to run in straight line and not targeting on something straight ahead in the environment, like the center ring pole. Then I started really looking at trial set ups and realized we always have a center ring pole, so then I decided I didn't care if that's what he was targeting on. I still preferred the idea of him just running straight until I called for the sit, but in the interest of saving a little time -- as I start grad school in Aug. and hope to have the UD by then -- I stopped worrying about it.

Then I realized when I travel this summer, I may well encounter ring gates.

I guess I could do some training sessions where I don't put up posts, and just set the jumps and see what I get. Maybe he is thinking that it's "run straight between the jumps" and not "run to the post." Like I said, he's being really tight-lipped about it!

I don't have any gates and stanchions yet, but I'm trying to dig some up for practice.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The traditional obedience ring made of gates will have 4 gates, 10 feet each. So there will be a stanchion in the middle. Very occasionally I have run across a stanchion being off center, but never by more than a couple of feet. And if the gates are 10 feet long, it would be impossible for the stanchion to ever be more than 5 feet off center. So if you go to a show and the stanchion isn't dead center and he does pull off for the nearest stanchion, it still won't pull him off the path of a perfect go-out all that much. 

In all the utility trials I've been in, I've only done go-outs to blank walls twice. Off center stanchion maybe 5 times. And I've shown in utilty probably around 75 times.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I guess I could do some training sessions where I don't put up posts, and just set the jumps and see what I get. Maybe he is thinking that it's "run straight between the jumps" and not "run to the post." Like I said, he's being really tight-lipped about it!


Not sure what to think of this. You will ALWAYS have a ring barrier of some sort for the dog to run at. Having the dog run into oblivion is not the point of a go-out so why train for it.



> I don't have any gates and stanchions yet, but I'm trying to dig some up for practice.


If it helps, you can order ONE ring gate with feet so it stands upright, very inexpensively from J&J. I used my ONE gate to teach Fisher and train in utility until he got his UD. Sure we would go to run throughs with a full ring end but by ourselves I used just one gate. And obviously with one gate you don't have a center stanchion. It wasn't until much after that I was able to buy 6 gates, enough to make a complete ring end and two corners.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

And I just have two ring gates. But more often I just train go-outs to my fence.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

blank walls are not uncommon here. You can tell dogs who were taught to run *to* something because they become frantic when they encounter a blank wall.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've actually not found the blank walls to cause that much problem. The ones that do usually don't have that strong of go-outs to begin with. I think if you practice enough (and they say it takes hundreds and hundreds of go-outs in different places to have a dog really understand them) the dog learns to pick a spot straight in front of him to focus on and run towards.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> Not sure what to think of this. You will ALWAYS have a ring barrier of some sort for the dog to run at. Having the dog run into oblivion is not the point of a go-out so why train for it.
> 
> If it helps, you can order ONE ring gate with feet so it stands upright, very inexpensively from J&J. I used my ONE gate to teach Fisher and train in utility until he got his UD. Sure we would go to run throughs with a full ring end but by ourselves I used just one gate. And obviously with one gate you don't have a center stanchion. It wasn't until much after that I was able to buy 6 gates, enough to make a complete ring end and two corners.


To me, the perfect go-out would be "run straight between the two jumps until I tell you to stop," even though there's always a barrier of some sort.

His first "go out" was probably 100 yards in a working trial. The judge used a marker, but you didn't know what it was going to be until you got to the test. We trained with poles, chairs, boxes, cones, etc. It became apparent very early on in training that Quiz was scanning the horizon as I set the mark, looking for the "thing" that was out there, b/c he ran directly to the "thing" every time - be it 75 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards, etc.

I suspect he's doing the same thing now -- but I guess to test it, I could take down the center pole and see if he just runs straight, between the jumps. My suspicion is that he will for a bit - probably long enough to count as a "go out" and then start to waiver as he realizes there isn't a "thing" out there.

I probably should just get gates and test it that way to baseline where he's at with gates, not poles. He may have more of the concept of "run straight" than I realize.

When you do field work, how do you introduce the "back" for blind handling? It seems that matches my idea of a perfect obedience go out -- in terms of conceptually running straight until told to do otherwise.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BTW - great idea for one gate to stand independently in the center at the end of the ring. I was going to buy two gates and three stanchions, but your idea would totally work.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

Today's outdoor show in CA did not have a center pole. There were four poles and nothing in the center so those dogs that were trained to go to the center pole were having lots of difficulty with off center go outs. Fortunately, Baylee is not trained using a pole so it wasn't a problem for her. Though most trials around here us a 3 pole set up there are a few that don't and more are using baby gates which can throw a wrench into the system if you train to go to a center stanchion.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> His first "go out" was probably 100 yards in a working trial. The judge used a marker, but you didn't know what it was going to be until you got to the test. We trained with poles, chairs, boxes, cones, etc. It became apparent very early on in training that Quiz was scanning the horizon as I set the mark, looking for the "thing" that was out there, b/c he ran directly to the "thing" every time - be it 75 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards, etc.


I don't know what a working trial is.



> I probably should just get gates and test it that way to baseline where he's at with gates, not poles. He may have more of the concept of "run straight" than I realize.


A very good idea.



> When you do field work, how do you introduce the "back" for blind handling? It seems that matches my idea of a perfect obedience go out -- in terms of conceptually running straight until told to do otherwise.


You've got the right idea but the point of a blind is to FIND something at the end. Dogs learn to run straight because every single solitary thing we do in running blinds is emphasizing run straight, lining up, handling, momentum. Running blinds is a lot more complex than any go out because every blind is different. Every obedience ring is the same. Comparing blinds to go-outs would be like, if instead of the go-out going to the same place every time, the judge told you exactly which foot of ring gate you were to send the dog to, and the dog then had to be lined directly to it. Gets a lot harder!!!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

BayBeams said:


> Today's outdoor show in CA did not have a center pole. There were four poles and nothing in the center so those dogs that were trained to go to the center pole were having lots of difficulty with off center go outs. Fortunately, Baylee is not trained using a pole so it wasn't a problem for her. Though most trials around here us a 3 pole set up there are a few that don't and more are using baby gates which can throw a wrench into the system if you train to go to a center stanchion.


You trained to a target, right? 

I initially used a target placed about a foot beyond the ring. My ring set up also happens to almost always have a center pole. My suspicion is that he's marking the pole b/c he's realized it's consistently out there. I didn't use the pole specifically -- as in, I know some people teach the dog to go out and nose-touch the pole -- I think he's just identified the pole as a consistent element in the environment when we train.

Do you always change the construction of your ring set up to prevent the dog from identifying a consistent element?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> I don't know what a working trial is.
> 
> You've got the right idea but the point of a blind is to FIND something at the end. Dogs learn to run straight because every single solitary thing we do in running blinds is emphasizing run straight, lining up, handling, momentum. Running blinds is a lot more complex than any go out because every blind is different. Every obedience ring is the same. Comparing blinds to go-outs would be like, if instead of the go-out going to the same place every time, the judge told you exactly which foot of ring gate you were to send the dog to, and the dog then had to be lined directly to it. Gets a lot harder!!!


Working trials are popular in Europe. There's one organization in the US that sanctions them, and we had an English judge come out and run one for us. The novice level is a sort of hybrid between US Open-level obedience + schutzhund style jumping and a nosework search square. There was also a go-out that was really long.

I understand the difference between go outs and field blinds. I'm just suggesting that the perfectly trained obedience go out would be a dog that worked more like a field dog -- so that yes, a judge can say, "send your dog to the [very specific place] and I could line and send him. If I trained for that, it wouldn't matter if we had gates, poles, center stanchions, no stanchions, a blank wall, etc. -- I'd have a dog who understands "run straight until I say otherwise." That would be awesome.

So - back to the question... out of curiosity, how do you start that for field? Is the bumper close and visible... mark > send > dog gets it and gradually the "find" gets farther away, dog doesn't see it be put out, can't see it from where you're setting him up and has to begin to trust if he follows your direction by running straight, it will be there?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I understand the difference between go outs and field blinds. I'm just suggesting that the perfectly trained obedience go out would be a dog that worked more like a field dog -- so that yes, a judge can say, "send your dog to the [very specific place] and I could line and send him. If I trained for that, it wouldn't matter if we had gates, poles, center stanchions, no stanchions, a blank wall, etc. -- I'd have a dog who understands "run straight until I say otherwise." That would be awesome.


Gotcha. Well in essence that is what an experienced dog does. But there will ALWAYS be a barrier of some sort in the obedience ring. Always. So while I can appreciate the challenge of training a go-out into oblivion, I think it's pointless for the AKC obedience ring. You have the great big crutch of ALWAYS having a barrier to run to, so take advantage of that and don't worry about training beyond that perimeter.



> So - back to the question... out of curiosity, how do you start that for field? Is the bumper close and visible... mark > send > dog gets it and gradually the "find" gets farther away, dog doesn't see it be put out, can't see it from where you're setting him up and has to begin to trust if he follows your direction by running straight, it will be there?


No, not really. Training blinds -- at least by all modern and successful field training methods -- involves a rather detailed set of skills and drills that prepare the dog to first run blinds: the mechanics of go, stop, come, change direction; and THEN introduce the cold blind concept AND the concept of handling away from suction through another series of drills. And there comes a time when all of those drills must take a leap of faith and the dog has to do it on his own. The amazing thing about modern blind training is that it is neither linear or intuitive, but if you follow the steps it leads to a dog who runs blinds with confidence.
Go outs are a lot easier, all ya gotta do is run 40 feet and sit 
"Easier" being all relative!!!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Stephanie, you might be interested in looking at Sandra Ladwig's version of training go-outs. She details it in the 3rd disk of her Beyond Puppy Training (or something like that) series, available from Bowwowflix.


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