# Another Blind Topic



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Ok, my skill level is not where I want it to be. It's not as far along as Gabby's capabilities. I do a lot on my own as there are no groups in my area and my trainer is 2 hours away and I can only go on weekends if he's not at a hunt test. 

Training on blinds. I'm trying to improve my skills on land and water. I try to set reasonable blinds where I can't get myself in too much trouble. Lately I've noticed a pattern and I don't know if "I'm" doing something to cause it, or if it's a dog idiosyncrasy and in either case, how do I fix it?

When I line Gabby in the direction I want her to take, as soon as she looks in that said direction I say "that's it, there it is" she appears to lock on the line, but when I release her she fades left, just about every time (accept at her last hunt test). Yesterday we were working a field that had mowed rows and non mowed rows. It looked like she would push through on some then let the mowed area influence her path on other times. I understand the suction barrier concept but I think the left fade/turn is not because of either suction or the barrier. She did it on a fully mowed field too. 

Yes I do stop her, cast her over to my line and usually give a right back to keep her from the left pull she likes so well. But she fades left again. I "think" she's a right handed dog by her voluntary spins she does in other places like getting excited at home about going for a walk. 

I feel like I'm not handling this correctly since it happens time and agin. I want to improve my handling so Gabby takes the line I asked, not the one she thinks is better. Oh she is opinionated. She will grumble at you if you make her take a cast she rather not. I think she's messing with me, but not sure how to fix. 

For the record Gabby and I have completed SH and we are working toward the next level. 

Thanks



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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Line her up, put her on a sit-stay, step directly behind her and look at where her spine is. It's possible that you are looking at her head, not her spine, and if her spine is aligned to the left, that's where she's going to head.
Ask me how I know that


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Line her up, put her on a sit-stay, step directly behind her and look at where her spine is. It's possible that you are looking at her head, not her spine, and if her spine is aligned to the left, that's where she's going to head.
> Ask me how I know that



:dblthumb2 I agree!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Bally's mom Sophie does EXACTLY this same thing. Always bows to the left when sent. Within 10 yards corrects herself to proper line. Has done this since day 1 and does it on go-outs in obedience, too. 
Make sure you are not leaning over the dog and crowding her off the plate when you are lining up and sending. Try to stand up really straight. Make sure your feet are aligned and you aren't inadvertently pushing her by having one leg or knee farther ahead than the other. 
You can also try simple drills of running her to a pile where there is a chair or perhaps holding blind just ahead and to the left of your sending point, so if she were to bow left she would run into it. Muscle memory is everything to dogs. She obviously has the muscle memory to go left, so this may break the cycle. 
Beyond that, you have to make the decision when sending, what is acceptable and what is too far. With Sophie, if she only bows 3-4 feet and corrects herself, that is acceptable. If she bows more than that and takes a bad initial line (after locking on the correct line before sending), it's a stop, sit, NO -- HERE, resend. If she repeats it, it's stop, sit, NO - HERE with nicks. That would obviously be a correction for a dog who understands it. 
The general rule is if they take a bad initial line, recall and resend. If they take a good initial line and fade, then handle. Of course too many quick whistles after sending and recalling even without correction is a recipe for a poor attitude on blinds. It's a balancing act.

(Just wanted to point out that the middle picture on my signature is Fisher being sent on a blind during a Finished test  )


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Make sure when you send her that you are not pushing her left with your body. Sometimes if you are too close or leaning towards the dog it will push them off line. I have a tendency to do this and I have to remember to almost take a half step back and give her the space to get a good initial line. 
As far as not taking your cast to the right, I would try attrition and insist that she change direction when asked. Stop her immediately if she starts to drift left and, if needed, call her in a few feet and recast her. You need to change her mind. It sounds like she is just not holding the cast.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

What does Gabby do when you send her for a blind on a flat, featureless, low cover field on a windless day?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Clearly, Gabby is not unique. This all sounds very familiar. Let's examine how she was prepared. What did you do to prepare her to run blinds generally? 

What did you do to train her to take accurate initial lines?

What did you do to train her to hold lines for moderate distances? 

What did you do to train her to hold lines over long distances? 

How have you trained her to hold a line in the presence of factors, like crossing wind, cover, etc.?

We can possibly build on those things once we know what they are.

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Good questions from Evan!

One more ... does she push left when sent on marks?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

gdgli said:


> What does Gabby do when you send her for a blind on a flat, featureless, low cover field on a windless day?



I think she drifts left. Honestly I've started "noticing" the past couple months. My effort to improve myself as a trainer I'm trying to notice more. 


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Clearly, Gabby is not unique. This all sounds very familiar. Let's examine how she was prepared. What did you do to prepare her to run blinds generally?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok most of this I'm not sure I can answer (blushing). We worked through FTP, and T and TT not sure if that's what you mean. I don't know "drills" so mostly I set up and run. No I don't do a "lot" of blinds. Again usually I set up about 70-80 yards, if it's after work I use a fence line at a mowed school yard, out of plain site by finding the shadow of a bush or tree. Recently I had an opportunity in a mowed field where I set stakes to keep her between. I need more experience to know "what" to do. Again I don't want to set up things I may not be able to handle. 

That being said, Gabby has also spent some time with our trainer. He has taught her most of the basics she's had done. Gabby is an amazing dog with drive and attitude galore. She is an incredibly hard worker and I usually say does an amazing job of making me look good. 

I guess those skills you mention is what "I" need. Gabby is my first dog to train in hunt tests, not having a support group is my biggest issue. No it's not an option. All groups here work during the week, during the day. I work. 


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> Ok most of this I'm not sure I can answer (blushing). We worked through FTP, and T and TT not sure if that's what you mean.


No need to blush, although I always appreciate candor. We all started someplace.


Maxs Mom said:


> I don't know "drills" so mostly I set up and run. No I don't do a "lot" of blinds.


Even experienced trainers often run too few drills, especially with young dogs. You're fortunate to live in the information age, and also in an age when experienced trainers are more open to new ones in providing help. When I came into the sport in the mid 1970's the better trainers played their cards kind of close to the vest.


Maxs Mom said:


> Again usually I set up about 70-80 yards, if it's after work I use a fence line at a mowed school yard, out of plain site by finding the shadow of a bush or tree.


Okay, please understand that I'm not doing this to overwhelm you with new terms. I know some of them will be new and even confusing at first. But I'm laying out the fundamental skills and skill sets your dog should have to become competent at fieldwork. The foundation = Basics. Every working retriever should have this well in place before running blinds, or really any advanced fieldwork.

The components of Basics in order

1)	“Here”
2)	“Heel & Sit”
3)	“Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4)	“Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5)	Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6)	3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7)	Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
8)	Single tee
9)	Double tee
10)	Water tee with Swim-by

My suggestion would be to make notes from this list, and ask any questions you have; i.e. "What is this?" "What will that give me?" "How does this fit with other skills listed here?" That kind of thing.


Maxs Mom said:


> That being said, Gabby has also spent some time with our trainer. He has taught her most of the basics she's had done. Gabby is an amazing dog with drive and attitude galore. She is an incredibly hard worker and I usually say does an amazing job of making me look good.


I'd like to suggest a couple things here. First, stop running blinds until Gabby has the fundamental skills to do it. It's kind of like asking our grade school kids to start their math education on Algebra. It's really not fair.


Maxs Mom said:


> I guess those skills you mention is what "I" need. Gabby is my first dog to train in hunt tests, not having a support group is my biggest issue. No it's not an option. All groups here work during the week, during the day. I work.


We'll work on that issue. But right now, take the trainer to school learning formal Basics, and doing all the marking you can with real birds. There are several sound courses on the market, and they'll certainly get you through Basics. PM if you would like the names of those programs and where to find them.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Maxs Mom

I live in NYC and I need to travel anywhere from 40 miles up to 140 miles to train with a group. I am not rich and don't have the time to travel to do a lot of this stuff with a group. I have done a lot by myself. It seems to me that the basics that Evan listed can all be done by yourself. What you need is a flow chart and good literature and DVDs to guide your progress as Evan suggests. Then do like I do---save the money to make the trip for an occasional club training session and pick and choose what you go to. 

My personal opinion: Those that do best have spent a lot of time doing yard training to get firm basics. Those that like to rush ("See what my dog can do") have dogs that do more but they are as sloppy as _____. I prefer quality over quantity.

My question about what your dog does was to get information as to whether the environment caused the fading left or whether it is "in her". The more experienced trainers on here probably have some ideas for you.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Evan

Your line is classic. "When I came into the sport in the mid 1970's the better trainers played their cards kind of close to the vest." This got me laughing.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

For me, bringing my first dog to MH, drills are my friend. 
I do these drills every 7-10 days(ish) and I have been doing this for over two years.
1. My lining drill, pyramid. (similar idea to wagon wheel) Repeating this drill over and over and over is what is teaching me where Winter is really looking and where I'm really sending her. When I started this drill we had wild 120 degree head swings but now we are mostly down to eye flicks. It also is where I'm still refining our language. Move my foot back, pull her line toward me, shuffle forward, push her away. "Good" locks her in.
2. Memory blinds, yep I still run them. 250-300+ yards I have 3 or 4 or 5 of them. Some are on flat ground, some are over terrain. I think they have help teach her how to hold her line. I also use them to made sure her whistle sits stay tight. Early on it was a great stress released for us both, we could look out together, we both know the end point and with "back" she would race out to the prize and race back to me. (by the way, I have water memory blinds too)
3. Mark/blind drill. This is where she learned in a progression, to backside a winger, run under the arc and no off poison birds. 

I actually like running drills and I definitely like what they have given us.
Learning to run blinds is a journey of a thousand steps. As Barb used to tell me (Tito and Winter were going through basic handling at the same time) those steps are two forward and one back. Hang in there, it _will_ all come together.
Again, I have one lonely AKC MH pass. ( and one CKC MH pass too )


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Evan, Ann made it clear she works with a pro, has been through TT, dog has it's Senior (with flying colors), and working on Master. She has some kinks to work out but is successfully running cold blinds. I know your intentions are true but suggesting she go back to basics I think is a little mis-directed.
Ann, drills are a must as you cannot possibly run enough cold blinds to teach a lot of lessons in the nuances of handling to the dog. And often you set up a drill because you want to correct or repeat, where if you did the same level of correcting or repeating in a cold blind setting, that is a real attitude killer. Dogs know the difference. Work out your kinks in drills, then apply them to cold blinds. I also think you need to stretch out your cold blinds, they should be over 100 yards at a minimum, approaching 200. 
The great thing about drills is you can do them in very little space and time. Do you have Carol Cassidy's drill book? Sometimes you just have to make up your own drills to isolate the exact problem you are having in your blinds. Best of luck,


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Referring back to the original post:
We have to remember that there's nothing natural about running blinds. Unlike marks, which draws heavily upon instinct-prey drive, there's nothing innate about running blinds. Blinds are, more or less, manufactured. Once the dog understands what a blind is, then the prey drive can/will kick in (I had a dog that would occasionally break on blinds ... I'd line him up, say "dead bird," then off he'd go). So we must break down each little part of a blind and teach, teach, teach. Evan listed the elements of "Basics," but under each element there are innumerable steps that must be taken ... that's where many trainers, even pretty good ones, fail to see all of the steps, baby steps, that need to be taken. Sometimes skipping a step doesn't cause a problem (there are times when I have intentionally skipped a step depending on what I felt the individual dog needed), however many or most times that a step is missed, a problem will manifest itself because of it.
It's not rocket science, but it does require thinking ... thinking about it from the dog's point of view. Ask yourself if you have laid the foundation for the dog; what have I taught the dog; does the dog know the response that I am expecting.

As for going back to Basics, it doesn't hurt. At least once a year I will put my all-age (Open/Am) dogs through TT and swim-by; if they are sharp, one session is enough, if they are not, we spend more time on them.

FTGoldens


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

FTGoldens said:


> Referring back to the original post:
> We have to remember that there's nothing natural about running blinds. Unlike marks, which draws heavily upon instinct-prey drive, there's nothing innate about running blinds. Blinds are, more or less, manufactured. Once the dog understands what a blind is, then the prey drive can/will kick in (I had a dog that would occasionally break on blinds ... I'd line him up, say "dead bird," then off he'd go).
> 
> FTGoldens


I had Winter break on some else's blind. We were running some set up where we had to honor another dogs blind working, dog's handler said "Back" her dog took two steps and spun back to her, Winter took off like a shot.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Thanks everyone.... I will re-evaluate my body... hard when it is "me". I will have my husband stand behind me. I don't think I am pushing her, and I do think I have her lined up on the line, not me. I will get behind her and look too. 

I had a long post all written up last night on my phone, and it wouldn't post. 

I will look at drills. I have Carol Cassity's book (forgot I had it until a couple days ago :doh I plan to work some things in there. 

gdgli - I wish I could find a group. I do travel to the trainers on weekends when he is there and training, but he has been sidelined (surgery) and not sure when he will be back training. All the groups around here are during the week, and during the day. Darn work keeps getting in the way of my dog training!!!

Funny on go outs if Gabby swings, she swings right. I do think she is "right handed". 

I am careful to not over do anything. I balance blinds with marks. I also balance field with agility and obedience. It is amazing how to a degree they all work together. Drills are fairly easy for me to do, I live near a couple nice parks where I should be able to find room. 

Do you do the same "type" of drills on water? If I can find any?? I live in suburbia, it's an hour through MAJOR construction to get to the closest water. We are trying to get to some at least 1 time a week. It's not great water. My HRC training grounds, doesn't have a way to get along the shore for planting blinds or running your dog. Limited to what we can do. There is a corporate park that has a run off pond. It's getting a little late in the season to use it. If it is actively raining, it's not bad but if it has not rained it gets pretty stagnant. Then I have a friend with a pond, she's a little farther, and I hate disturbing at the dinner hour. It's very small but very workable. She runs HT too. A MN qualifier. She is how we found our trainer. 

Keep suggestions coming  Like I said.... I need to know what I should be working on while my trainer is out of commision. 

Evan, thanks for all the suggestions! Just to confirm, yes Gabby has gone through all that training. I think my toughest issue with Gabby is she knows more than I do. She is an independent pushy b#[email protected]! and I have to establish she IS to listen to me. She can intimidate the heebie jeebies out of you especially at a test. She is a powerful dog. Honestly with another handler, she would be a FT dog, she does have the right ingredients. She is just stuck with me. 

As much as I love my Goo, I wish she were not my first dog. She has to weather all my novice mistakes. But at the same token, she has enough drive and attitude, they do not effect her much. So I guess its a good thing too.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> Evan, thanks for all the suggestions! Just to confirm, yes Gabby has gone through all that training. I think my toughest issue with Gabby is she knows more than I do. She is an independent pushy b#[email protected]! and I have to establish she IS to listen to me. She can intimidate the heebie jeebies out of you especially at a test. She is a powerful dog. Honestly with another handler, she would be a FT dog, she does have the right ingredients. She is just stuck with me.


If you have aspirations toward being successful at HT or FT events it's better to have a little too much dog than too little. But I appreciate how much more difficult it is for a new handler to get up to speed, especially when a pro has put the dog together, and then given you the reigns! Glad you have the foundation on board. If you know how to do some of those basic drill you'll do well to periodically tune up things like Swim-by, as FT mentioned. None of these skills are something we just train into a dog and they stay intact forever. It's still not natural for the dog to do most of these things, so they'll need maintenance.


Maxs Mom said:


> As much as I love my Goo, I wish she were not my first dog. She has to weather all my novice mistakes. But at the same token, she has enough drive and attitude, they do not effect her much. So I guess its a good thing too.


You'll have some uncomfortable times with her, but she will make you a handler. She sounds like she's not easy to make a dent in. That can make maintenance challenging, but it can keep the dog from falling apart while you learn.

Don't let even the best of basic skills slip. They are what all else is built on! It's good that you've got them so you can advance as you learn the drills of Transition.

What does Cassity's book suggest about building the elements of blind work I mentioned?

EvanG


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Mini update.....

Last night DH was running Gabby, I was bumper boy. He runs her HRC Seasoned. I paid CLOSE attention to what she did with him on the blinds. Ok he's working from a bucket (new level of difficulty). First send he did get the left fades, and I didn't think he was lining her properly. He may have to line himself slightly right to get her straight. After a couple of tries. I told him to skip the bucket and get her lined up. Then I saw what also might be happening. He leaned into her pushing her left. Once he stood straight she went straight. I don't think I'm leaning but I'm sure he didn't either. It's a thing to be aware of. 

He needs better lining skills period. We were running doubles, pretty simple but they were landing in "deeper" cover. Last one he thinks he's setting her up for the memory and when he sends her she heads straight where she just was. My dog does not switch, never has, nor has she returned to the old fall since she was a puppy. He clearly said to her to go that way so I'm sure she thought he had a reason. I told him to stop her, call her back, turn to his right and try again. Good grief.... (Roll eyes here) she stepped on it. 

Hard enough to train the dog. I don't want to train the handler. Sigh






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