# The Sunny Diaries part 16. - transition from downstairs to upstairs - help?



## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Some big changes happening in the life of Sunny. 
He'll be 5 months old in a week and weighs 17.4kgs. Thank goodness he put on some weight after so much diarrhea. 

Starting from today, we're transitioning from Royal Canin Maxi Junior to Pro Plan Puppy Sensitive Skin and Stomach thanks to Chritty's advice and from reading positive experiences of other members. I'll take a before photo tomorrow and let's see the difference it makes in his poops and skin/coat! I'm very excited. Fingers crossed he does well on it! 

We've been having some major crate-training relapse... again. Before there was the excuse of diarrhea, now there isn't. I think he just hates it. Last night, no one got any sleep. He asked to come out around 8 times, and only once to poop. 
Plus, I am sick of sleeping downstairs for the past 3 months. It's soon time to move upstairs into my bedroom! 

Here's the plan: 

1. Continue crating him downstairs for another month, sometimes keeping the door open because having to get up and open the crate door every night half-asleep is tiring. 
2. Remove the backdoor bell at some stage between 11pm-6am, so he'll hopefully catch on that he's not allowed outside at bedtime. 
3. Start allowing upstairs access during the day for a nap with me in my room, to get him used to the new environment 
4. Buy another crate for upstairs 
5. Attempt to crate him. If all goes well throughout the night, I'll continue to crate for as long as he'll tolerate it, ideally until he's a year old
6. #5 won't happen, so I'll ask him to crate but leave the door open
7. Uncrated, he probably won't hold his bladder as long as he can crated. Bed at 10-11pm, potty at 3am, back to sleep until 6-7am. 
8. Eventually phase out middle of the night potty break. 
9. Maybe keep bedroom door open, but gate off top of stair case so he can't go exploring 


I'm really nervous about this change. He's never allowed upstairs unless it's for bath time (which he hates). I feel like he's become so accustomed to the first storey, with the crate in the same room as the backdoor, that moving him upstairs is going to be like going back to square one. I'm hoping that he'll settle quickly now that he has the choice to be out of the crate, and maybe I'll even sleep on the floor with him some nights. 
If he wants needs to potty, or be a brat, he'll rattle the crate, I take him out and he rings the bell to go out. Now upstairs, there'll be no closed crate door, and no bell... he's going to have to learn a new way to signal. I don't think my parents are going to appreciate a thunderous bark right beside their rooms. :uhoh:

*Has anyone moved from downstairs to upstairs with a 5-6 month old puppy?* He never started off sleeping upstairs in my room with me so this is going to be a whole new experience which might take a while to adapt to. Any tips? What if he continues to wake up in the middle of the night (not to potty) and we have to make numerous trips up and down stairs every night? Will be eventually learn to sleep through the night like he used to as a wee puppy?! 

These days, he's so unsettled at night, then he sleeps from 8am-12pm! This sleeping routine would've worked well if I were still at uni "studying" *cough* procrastinating* all night then sleeping all day. 
Regardless of how much exercise he gets throughout the day, he still won't settle. Maybe things will change once he's not confined in the "cage" he suddenly hates so much.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Don't buy another crate. Use the same one. No need for two


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

You cant let him sleep all day (until 12pm) and then expect him to sleep all night. I am on the Sunshine Coast so not far from you. I am up at 6.00 am with my animals. I am out walking with my dog between 7.00 and 7.30. Because you are young and not working or studying at the moment it is natural that you want to sleep in especially if you are up a lot with your puppy during the night. But this is not a good schedule either for you or your puppy. It is more natural for animals to be up at sunrise and sleep at sunset. That is their natural rhythm. Unfortunately that is not the natural rhythm of someone in their early 20s.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus, I want to keep a crate downstairs in case we ever need to crate him when we're out.



Harleysmum said:


> You cant let him sleep all day (until 12pm) and then expect him to sleep all night. I am on the Sunshine Coast so not far from you. I am up at 6.00 am with my animals. I am out walking with my dog between 7.00 and 7.30. Because you are young and not working or studying at the moment it is natural that you want to sleep in especially if you are up a lot with your puppy during the night. But this is not a good schedule either for you or your puppy. It is more natural for animals to be up at sunrise and sleep at sunset. That is their natural rhythm. Unfortunately that is not the natural rhythm of someone in their early 20s.


We had a schedule that was working for us, sleep from 10pm-6am, then potty, then sleep in until 8am for breakfast. We sometimes play in the backyard for about 10 minutes, wander around, then he will go back to sleep by choice until lunch. After that, if the weather permits, we'll play outside, train, take a nap until 4pm, then go to the dog park or take a 30-40 minute walk. Dinner, then some training, bit of play, then he'll nap really early. Perhaps it was because he was younger, but despite all the naps throughout the day, he'd still sleep through the night just fine. 
Even now though, around 3 days a week we'll have some intensely occupied days, where we go to the dog park + have puppy class, lots of training, have play dates, and some days he rarely takes naps. Even on these days, he still won't sleep through the night. 

"Unfortunately that is not the natural rhythm of someone in their early 20s." HAHA! That is very true.
I'm not sure how I can keep him awake between 8am-12pm though. After a good play, he WANTS to sleep...


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I know there are people that are awake with their dogs early, take them out for a walk (in my case, a romp in the backyard will do, he seems tired enough), then they're crated until noon while they work. Most of the time, dogs will just sleep in the crate, right? Then they're out for play for 30 minutes, and back in the crate for a further 4 hours until their owners come home. Their dogs manage to sleep through the night, so I'm not sure why Sunny wouldn't be able to.. 
We play and train numerous times throughout the day, + either dog park/walk/play date/puppy class. I'd like to think I occupy him enough each day, and although our nap times are a little funny, he should be able to adapt to my schedule. I've heard of some unconventional schedules where puppies sleep 3am-11pm, because of work, and they do fine. Hmm... I might need to start drinking coffee or something and make myself a morning person!


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

I think you need some experts to chime in. I am not an expert and do not have a puppy. I have an older dog. He is never crated. Crating is more common in America (not a criticism). Most of your advice is coming from people also dealing with first time puppies. I think you need advice from more experienced people.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Hmm yeah I've had some people comment on my photos on Facebook asking why I lock my dog up in a "cage". 
I think it's great, but it's not working well for us. 
I always appreciate your honest input, Harleysmum. Thank you.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I don't mean this to come across harshly - but I think you're overthinking all this.  Just move the crate up to your room, and crate him at night. If he cries, tell him "go to sleep" - just once, just firmly but gently. And ignore the crying. You can't take him out every time he cries - that's why he continues to cry in the crate. There's a difference between a cry to go out and a cry to GET out of the crate. At this point, he should easily be able to sleep through the night without going out. If you don't think he is housetrained enough to sleep outside the crate, he needs to be crated. He'll probably be happier crated near you in your room. If you think he can go through the night without peeing, puppy-proof your room, get a baby gate, or close the door, and let him sleep with you. Shala started sleeping on my bed at just shy of 5 months old. She never woke through the night - she was much happier sleeping with me than in her crate (which was in my room).


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Harleysmum, how do people do it without a crate? Our childhood dog wasn't crated and many items got chewed up, including our kitchen table and chairs. She was confined to the kitchen while we were gone.) My dog I got after college was crated so minimal damage was done during puppyhood. He eventually got free reign and was fine.

I woke up my dog last night from his crate because I thought he sounded a little restless. He wouldn't get out, but I figured by waking him at that point he would definitely need a trip out, so I eventually lured him with food. He made it as far as his mat in the kitchen, then got up and went back to his crate on his own. He never did go out and I think he thought I was crazy, but he does like his crate. When he gets older and trustworthy, though, I hope he likes our beds! We all want to sleep with him.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Anele, I was thinking the same thing - there's no way we could raise a puppy without a crate (and don't have room really to set up an x-pen, unless on carpet, and don't want to do that either). 

I often think about how my folks raised our childhood dog who came along before we did, without the aid of a crate. Heck, the crate is a life saver, when Noah is too tired to realize he's tired (he doesn't seem to have an off switch, unless in his crate).


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Chloe isn't crated except at night in the kitchen or if we have errands. The way are kitchen is she doesn't have access to chew on anything. Maybe the cabinets but she has never really been destructive and chewed on anything. I think pretty soon she is going to be sleeping upstairs so my mom can get more sleep.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

What I am getting out of reading the comments on here, and from my own experience is that you have to know your dog. Every dog will probably be different in how they sleep, their level of destructiveness etc. As I mentioned on your other thread, we are no longer crating Rundle at night. She sleeps even better through the night now just laying on the carpet beside me. She has full reign of the house during the day when I am home. Lately, we have been leaving her for 30 min periods with full reign except the carpeted bedroom when we leave the condo. This week I am going to start extending her alone with all, but bedroom access. Rundle is proving herself to be very trustworthy with cupboards, baseboards furniture etc. And we are risking that one day she doesn't make the best choice and chews on something that she isn't supposed to... but, that is a risk we are willing to take because it is better than her howling and getting kicked out of our condo altogether. But, so far she has never been left alone for too long. The days I do need to go into the office for the day we have been bringing her to doggy daycare, where she will be for the next 2 days. Even with separation training, I probably wouldn't leave her alone for longer than a half day right now. I mean you can only expect a 17 week old to sit around and "hold it" for so long.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sweet Girl said:


> I don't mean this to come across harshly - but I think you're overthinking all this.  Just move the crate up to your room, and crate him at night. If he cries, tell him "go to sleep" - just once, just firmly but gently. And ignore the crying. You can't take him out every time he cries - that's why he continues to cry in the crate. There's a difference between a cry to go out and a cry to GET out of the crate. At this point, he should easily be able to sleep through the night without going out. If you don't think he is housetrained enough to sleep outside the crate, he needs to be crated. He'll probably be happier crated near you in your room. If you think he can go through the night without peeing, puppy-proof your room, get a baby gate, or close the door, and let him sleep with you. Shala started sleeping on my bed at just shy of 5 months old. She never woke through the night - she was much happier sleeping with me than in her crate (which was in my room).


For the past 3 weeks, it's been hard to make judgments between wanting to go out and get crate fusses. This diarrhea issue has been ongoing for 1/3 of his life here, so I really can't ignore it. I don't want to clean up explosive diarrhea in a carpeted room, my own little room. It'd take days to rid of the smell! Which is why I won't be able to attempt this new sleeping pattern until I'm 100% his poops are back to normal. Then yes, I'll be ignoring him! 
Last night, I left the crate door open. At midnight, he ran out, rang the bell, and squatted immediately outside. Diarrhea. At 2am, ran out, squatted immediately. Diarrhea. 4am, no diarrhea, but wanted to play. I imagine his schedule is out of whack because of his upset tummy. We'll try crating downstairs with the door closed all through the night again once he's better. 
I don't know if he's be happier crated in my room, because right now his crate is already pretty close as it is! 
He hasn't had an accident in the house for 2 months, but in a new environment with a different surface, I don't know how he'd go. We haven't given him the opportunity. 

I think the whole diarrhea thing is making everything seem harder than it really is. Hopefully things clear up soon enough!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> What I am getting out of reading the comments on here, and from my own experience is that you have to know your dog. Every dog will probably be different in how they sleep, their level of destructiveness etc. As I mentioned on your other thread, we are no longer crating Rundle at night. She sleeps even better through the night now just laying on the carpet beside me. She has full reign of the house during the day when I am home. Lately, we have been leaving her for 30 min periods with full reign except the carpeted bedroom when we leave the condo. This week I am going to start extending her alone with all, but bedroom access. Rundle is proving herself to be very trustworthy with cupboards, baseboards furniture etc. And we are risking that one day she doesn't make the best choice and chews on something that she isn't supposed to... but, that is a risk we are willing to take because it is better than her howling and getting kicked out of our condo altogether. But, so far she has never been left alone for too long. The days I do need to go into the office for the day we have been bringing her to doggy daycare, where she will be for the next 2 days. Even with separation training, I probably wouldn't leave her alone for longer than a half day right now. I mean you can only expect a 17 week old to sit around and "hold it" for so long.


Sunny has yet to show destructive behaviours, too! He never tries to chew anything other than his toys (unless he's outside, then he'll eat anything). We have left him with full reign of the 1st storey minus the carpeted room for 2-3 hours at a time, and from watching him on camera, he just sleeps and waits for us. I'll be puppy proofing my room as much as I trust him.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Anele said:


> Harleysmum, how do people do it without a crate?





rabernet said:


> Anele, I was thinking the same thing - there's no way we could raise a puppy without a crate (and don't have room really to set up an x-pen, unless on carpet, and don't want to do that either).


Australian house holds (except apartments) are 99.9% fenced yards. (If that helps) as for me I treated my kitchen as a big crate. it really worked out well


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Have you tried probiotics or anything? It worries me that he's still having diarrhea. He should have been past that by now. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but taking the bell off the door won't discourage him from asking to go out. He'll just jump on the door or find something else to ring - Zelda hit my stethoscope into the metal lamp beside it. Until he's quit asking to go out at night, I wouldn't even attempt it. He'll just keep you up.

Zelda sleeps until 11 or noon every day, and is asleep for the night by midnight.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> Have you tried probiotics or anything? It worries me that he's still having diarrhea. He should have been past that by now. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but taking the bell off the door won't discourage him from asking to go out. He'll just jump on the door or find something else to ring - Zelda hit my stethoscope into the metal lamp beside it. Until he's quit asking to go out at night, I wouldn't even attempt it. He'll just keep you up.
> 
> Zelda sleeps until 11 or noon every day, and is asleep for the night by midnight.


Yes, I've been adding a probiotic powder to his meal everyday for the past week. The diarrhea did stop and things were going fantastic for a week, but it started again. He's tested negative for worms and giardia, and like I said, the vet and I are certain the first bout of diarrhea was from bark-eating causing a minor obstruction. I'm hoping he'll stop asking to go out once this poop problem is behind us, then the bell thing shouldn't be a problem! 

That is reassuring to here that Zelda sleeps until noon. So it is possible for a dog to sleep through the night even if they sleep in late! 
I did try to keep him awake this morning. He made it to 10am, and now he's back in the crate by choice to sleep.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

I just looked at your other thread (but it's easier to reply here). I would call the vet. That's a lot of diarrhea for a long time. Z gets diarrhea from time to time, but it usually lasts 2-3 days at the most, and more often than not it's one soft BM and then normal from there on out. It definitely doesn't last three weeks. That's abnormal. He definitely shouldn't be having diarrhea if he's only eating chicken and rice. I worry about dehydration even if he's drinking okay. The vet can't hurt, either.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I had never heard of a crate until we spoke to our breeder. 

Millie sometimes gets into trouble but not so much that we can't handle. Also, I know this is against a lot here on the GRF, when we are out Millie is in our backyard having fun.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> I just looked at your other thread (but it's easier to reply here). I would call the vet. That's a lot of diarrhea for a long time. Z gets diarrhea from time to time, but it usually lasts 2-3 days at the most, and more often than not it's one soft BM and then normal from there on out. It definitely doesn't last three weeks. That's abnormal. He definitely shouldn't be having diarrhea if he's only eating chicken and rice. I worry about dehydration even if he's drinking okay. The vet can't hurt, either.


He was having diarrhea on and off for around 10 days - we had 3 trips to the vet during that time, costing me around $300 for consultations, a stool sample, an injection to help stop diarrhea. It cleared up because eventually Sunny threw up some bark and pooped some, and the vet pulled a chunk out of his butt, it was sitting right there! He was doing fine for a week, then he's started up again these past 3 days. When I say he's been having diarrhea for 3 weeks, I'm including the week of no diarrhea as well. 
I would take him to the vet, but I want to wait a bit. I have been charged $60 twice just for them to tell me he's okay and just continue with chicken and rice. :doh:

I'll give them a call today though and report back!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Momo, is there anything he might be eating at the dog park? I also think that, with the cheese, it can take awhile to clear up . . . it might still be that.

I agree with you very much, 3Pebs3, that whether or not to use the crate depends on the dog, the set-up, the family, etc. My dog is like Rabernet's, in that he will rarely settle for sleep on his own. (Though he did today! First time in weeks-- fell asleep next to me!) We have a SUPER busy household so the crate is his little haven, I think, where he knows he has "one job" (I don't give him Kongs or bones or anything else in there) and can just be there, undisturbed. We also have 3 floors of activity and interesting things to get into, so there would be so much temptation to give him free reign. 

Marcus, you mean that most households have fenced yards or that most time is spent in yards? With my childhood dog, we did the same, and the kitchen was the "crate." 

Chritty, I don't think there is anything wrong with leaving a dog outside if it's safe and interesting for the dog. My dog doesn't love being in our yard (seriously-- we have to bribe him to go out most of the time!), especially not alone; there is the strong possibility of theft, and the weather here is unpleasant much of the year. I think I am moving to Australia!


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

It's true in Australia most dogs live out in fenced yards with access inside usually thru a doggy door. It is only in recent times that there have been issues of theft. The whole crate thing reminds me of the 1950s where you would often see children being led around on "reins". When I had my children my father was always saying "you need reins for that child". I was appalled. Who would do such a thing to a child. But there are heaps of pictures of me and my sister in "reins" LOL. I am not against crates per se but I don't like the idea of dogs being crated for hours on end while their owners are at work. My SIL lives in Arizona and there were dogs crated all day in hot garages at her complex. Animal welfare were called but they could not do anything because the dogs had water and were crated. Seems an awful life to me.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Anele said:


> Marcus, you mean that most households have fenced yards or that most time is spent in yards? With my childhood dog, we did the same, and the kitchen was the "crate."


Yes Fenced yards



Anele said:


> I think I am moving to Australia!


Haha less snow


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

momo_ said:


> For the past 3 weeks, it's been hard to make judgments between wanting to go out and get crate fusses. This diarrhea issue has been ongoing for 1/3 of his life here, so I really can't ignore it. I don't want to clean up explosive diarrhea in a carpeted room, my own little room. It'd take days to rid of the smell! Which is why I won't be able to attempt this new sleeping pattern until I'm 100% his poops are back to normal. Then yes, I'll be ignoring him!
> Last night, I left the crate door open. At midnight, he ran out, rang the bell, and squatted immediately outside. Diarrhea. At 2am, ran out, squatted immediately. Diarrhea. 4am, no diarrhea, but wanted to play. I imagine his schedule is out of whack because of his upset tummy. We'll try crating downstairs with the door closed all through the night again once he's better.
> I don't know if he's be happier crated in my room, because right now his crate is already pretty close as it is!
> He hasn't had an accident in the house for 2 months, but in a new environment with a different surface, I don't know how he'd go. We haven't given him the opportunity.
> ...


OH!! I'm so sorry. I didn't realize the diarrhea was still an issue. That IS a long time. 

Shala tested negative several times for giardia and coccidia before she tested positive. My vet started to treat for giardia, just because of how she was presenting (liquid, pure liquid, every half hour to hour, with blood). Almost as soon as we started to treat for giardia, we got a positive for coccidia and so got her on the right meds.

It might be worth asking your vet to treat him for giardia (more common here, but ask which is more common there). Get him a good long course of the meds (2 weeks). Either get a vet food, very bland, or feed just chicken and rice. Once the meds are done, THEN give the probiotic. 

It can take a really long time with these parasites, and they can be brought under control, and then flare up again. I agree with you - I'd be taking hom out every time he cries. Again, my apologies for missing that he was still having the issues. I would definitely crate him in your room, and just take him out as needed. I would not let him sleep out of his crate while this is still an issue. Good luck!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Anele said:


> Momo, is there anything he might be eating at the dog park? I also think that, with the cheese, it can take awhile to clear up . . . it might still be that.
> 
> I agree with you very much, 3Pebs3, that whether or not to use the crate depends on the dog, the set-up, the family, etc. My dog is like Rabernet's, in that he will rarely settle for sleep on his own. (Though he did today! First time in weeks-- fell asleep next to me!) We have a SUPER busy household so the crate is his little haven, I think, where he knows he has "one job" (I don't give him Kongs or bones or anything else in there) and can just be there, undisturbed. We also have 3 floors of activity and interesting things to get into, so there would be so much temptation to give him free reign.
> 
> ...



We got a solid poop outta him! It was probably something he got into, but he *always* gets into things outside, so maybe it's not from the grass, weeds, dirt, it was probably the cheese like you said, or maybe from over-treating.
I'm hoping his gut is strong enough to handle weeds etc., because ideally I'd like to be able to leave him out there unsupervised sometimes, which I do. 
Move to Australia so Kevin and Sunny can be besties. :


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sweet Girl said:


> OH!! I'm so sorry. I didn't realize the diarrhea was still an issue. That IS a long time.
> 
> Shala tested negative several times for giardia and coccidia before she tested positive. My vet started to treat for giardia, just because of how she was presenting (liquid, pure liquid, every half hour to hour, with blood). Almost as soon as we started to treat for giardia, we got a positive for coccidia and so got her on the right meds.
> 
> ...


Despite tests returning negative, if a dog has giardia, are the poops ever firm? Is diarrhea intermittent? 
Last time, the vet did a fecal float which came back negative, but provided medication that was to treat giardia just in case. The issue was probably from bark ingestion, so this time I think the diarrhea is due to something else, not continuing from when it last happened. He did a solid poop today after a 24-fast and chicken and rice! YES!! We'll do a few more days of chicken and rice, then making a slow transition to Pro Plan. Hopefully that doesn't cause another upset. I won't be moving him upstairs until he's 100% though! 

So about upstairs... I know it should be simple, but it seems like he doesn't like this floor of the house because he's so used to downstairs. I'm trying to introduce it to him before we move him up here, but he keeps pacing, then going back downstairs. Is it because it's a new environment? 

I'm here in my room sitting on the floor, as I would downstairs, and he'd usually curl up and sleep beside me, but upstairs he won't settle. He'd rather be downstairs alone. I was hoping to try 3Pebs3 suggestion of not buying another crate and see how he does just sleeping on my floor, but I think the security of a crate might be helpful. If he barks a lot it's going to be an issue though. The neighbours can hear everything from my bedroom window.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Probably associates it with bath time as you said the only time he has been up there was to bath. Give it time


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I have a man cave in the back of our yard. For weeks Millie wouldn't go near it. She was spooked by it. After a while she started to accept it and started gaining the confidence to explore. Don't know if that's how Sunny's feeling


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

momo_ said:


> Despite tests returning negative, if a dog has giardia, are the poops ever firm? Is diarrhea intermittent?
> Last time, the vet did a fecal float which came back negative, but provided medication that was to treat giardia just in case. The issue was probably from bark ingestion, so this time I think the diarrhea is due to something else, not continuing from when it last happened. He did a solid poop today after a 24-fast and chicken and rice! YES!! We'll do a few more days of chicken and rice, then making a slow transition to Pro Plan. Hopefully that doesn't cause another upset. I won't be moving him upstairs until he's 100% though!
> 
> So about upstairs... I know it should be simple, but it seems like he doesn't like this floor of the house because he's so used to downstairs. I'm trying to introduce it to him before we move him up here, but he keeps pacing, then going back downstairs. Is it because it's a new environment?
> ...


Yes, I think you can get the odd solid poop, then it might soften up again. Shala had a lot of what we called "soft serve" (like Dairy Queen ice cream!) as she was getting better. There'd be a good one, then a soft serve, off and on. Really, for us, it was the very long course of meds that finally did the trick. BUT - we had to treat again because it flared back up, which is not at all uncommon. 

On the other issue - it DOES sound like he is nervous upstairs, and it may well be because he's not used to being up there. It's a new territory. I'd just sort of not pay attention to his nervousness, not play into it, you know? If you are calm and just being natural and normal, he'll calm down. Just let him come to you, don't TRY to make him come and cuddle if he is feeling strange about his surroundings. I do think he'll get used to it with time. If he likes downstairs for now, I'd let him sleep downstairs. 

I think you'll be happy with the Pro Plan. Do a veeeeery slow transition, once you have had a good several days of solid poops. Mix in a little kibble with the rice and chicken, and slowly increase.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

> Yes, I think you can get the odd solid poop, then it might soften up again. Shala had a lot of what we called "soft serve" (like Dairy Queen ice cream!) as she was getting better. There'd be a good one, then a soft serve, off and on. Really, for us, it was the very long course of meds that finally did the trick. BUT - we had to treat again because it flared back up, which is not at all uncommon.


We got a solid one yesterday, and ANOTHER one this morning! I just took a moment to write in the planner how long left of chicken + rice then the slow transition to PP. I go outside to find he's eaten some of his poop, SOLID poops. They're dark, very hard, and come out kind of like numerous thumb-sized bullets. I'll call the vet in a few days to confirm if things are looking fine enough that we don't need to bring him in for a check up.



> On the other issue - it DOES sound like he is nervous upstairs, and it may well be because he's not used to being up there. It's a new territory. I'd just sort of not pay attention to his nervousness, not play into it, you know? If you are calm and just being natural and normal, he'll calm down. Just let him come to you, don't TRY to make him come and cuddle if he is feeling strange about his surroundings. I do think he'll get used to it with time. If he likes downstairs for now, I'd let him sleep downstairs.


I was acting normal yesterday, sat on the floor with my laptop and patted the blanket beside me to see if he'd join, but if he didn't, I'd just ignore him. I don't call him up, but he'll usually follow me up anyway. The second time 'round, we laid on the floor and he eventually fell asleep for a nap after 10 minutes of opening and closing his eyes. It's a good step! 

As keen as I am to see results with Pro Plan, I'll make sure to do a very slow transition, probably over a week. In 3 days, we're going to a golden retriever meet up at a dog park/beach. On the same day I can begin adding PP, however, to be safe, I might withhold from doing that until the following day as he could get the runs and I wouldn't know if it's from PP or from him getting into something at the beach. 

I tried doing some research on PP Sensitive Skin and Stomach and in some dogs, it can cause even worse diarrhea. Fingers crossed Sunny isn't one of the rare cases! 

Thanks for the help Sweet Girl!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sweet Girl, after three days of solid poops, he just got diarrhea again tonight. I was so certain things were looking up.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

What has he eaten today - just chicken and rice?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Yes  it's very odd. If he doesn't go out every few hours throughout the night, I'll take it as a good sign and see how he goes tomorrow. 
Poor Sunny...

Edit: Diarrhea 8:30 and 10:30pm. This pattern has happened before. Every 2 hours, on the dot. We're in for a long night.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

momo_ said:


> Sweet Girl, after three days of solid poops, he just got diarrhea again tonight. I was so certain things were looking up.


Is he on any meds right now for the diarrhea? Has he done a long course of meds? If there is a parasite, which there could be even if it's not showing up on fecals, it just won't go away on it's own by feeding chicken and rice. They are tough! I would really talk to your vet about putting him on something for a good two weeks. Don't try to rush it. But once he's on a med that is working, you will be able to put him on the PP. Or, get a bland kibble from your vet (Shala ate Purina EN for months while her insides were settling down).It does take a while, but once you get rid of it, their systems can start to get stronger again.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sweet Girl said:


> Is he on any meds right now for the diarrhea? Has he done a long course of meds? If there is a parasite, which there could be even if it's not showing up on fecals, it just won't go away on it's own by feeding chicken and rice. They are tough! I would really talk to your vet about putting him on something for a good two weeks. Don't try to rush it. But once he's on a med that is working, you will be able to put him on the PP. Or, get a bland kibble from your vet (Shala ate Purina EN for months while her insides were settling down).It does take a while, but once you get rid of it, their systems can start to get stronger again.


He's not on meds right now. The vet instructed me to do a 24-hour fast, then chicken and rice for 4-5 days, and if his stools were okay during this time, then we could begin the transition to PP. A few weeks ago, when he had diarrhea, he was on two types of medication - metronidazole and peptosyl. I believe one of them is used to treat giardia? A fecal float was also conducted - negative. I'll see how he goes tomorrow, and possibly the following day. If the diarrhea persists, I'll take him to the vet. 
I am an insanely paranoid puppy parent. If it were up to me, I'd probably be at the vet everyday! But I have parents who have been giving me so much s*** (excuse my language!) over these issues. He is my dog, I am the sole caretaker, I pay for all expenses, yet I can't make my own decisions without them being very unsupportive. Things are bad enough as it is. 
I just wish we could go through a month without problems. That'd be a blessing.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> Yes  it's very odd. If he doesn't go out every few hours throughout the night, I'll take it as a good sign and see how he goes tomorrow.
> Poor Sunny...
> 
> Edit: Diarrhea 8:30 and 10:30pm. This pattern has happened before. Every 2 hours, on the dot. We're in for a long night.


How frustrating and upsetting, when you are following the vets recommendation to a tee and things still aren't getting any better for Sunny. I don't have any advice, but I really feel for the both of you. Still sending my best wishes that things turn around soon!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> He's not on meds right now. The vet instructed me to do a 24-hour fast, then chicken and rice for 4-5 days, and if his stools were okay during this time, then we could begin the transition to PP. A few weeks ago, when he had diarrhea, he was on two types of medication - metronidazole and peptosyl. I believe one of them is used to treat giardia? A fecal float was also conducted - negative. I'll see how he goes tomorrow, and possibly the following day. If the diarrhea persists, I'll take him to the vet.
> I am an insanely paranoid puppy parent. If it were up to me, I'd probably be at the vet everyday! But I have parents who have been giving me so much s*** (excuse my language!) over these issues. He is my dog, I am the sole caretaker, I pay for all expenses, yet I can't make my own decisions without them being very unsupportive. Things are bad enough as it is.
> I just wish we could go through a month without problems. That'd be a blessing.


Ya... I haven't spoke to my Mom since I was 13, and my Dad since I was 18... I am now 28. Parents don't rank to high on my list. 
But, I think you have the right to be concerned about your pup in this instance. You love him, and this is not normal. You want him to be OK, for both your sake and his. All of this is completely understandable. I would want to be at the vet everyday too until it was resolved. I am glad Sunny has you. You two will figure this out.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Diarrhea at 8:30 and 10:30pm, then 12am, 12:50 squat with nothing, 4:30 and 6:30.
Does a fast begin from the last time he's fed, or the last he has a round of diarrhea? 
I'd hate to do another 24-hour fast so soon, but I can do 14-15 hours between dinner last night and breakfast today. 



> Ya... I haven't spoke to my Mom since I was 13, and my Dad since I was 18... I am now 28. Parents don't rank to high on my list.
> But, I think you have the right to be concerned about your pup in this instance. You love him, and this is not normal. You want him to be OK, for both your sake and his. All of this is completely understandable. I would want to be at the vet everyday too until it was resolved. I am glad Sunny has you. You two will figure this out.


I'm sorry to hear that, Pebs.  Besides both our puppies having the runs, we seem to be able to relate to this parent thing too. Except in your instance, both issues have been resolved. I'm so happy for you! 

In strict Asian households, children are required to stay with their families until they're married. I don't see that happening any time soon, so I'm just wasting my early 20s away under their control. Not allowed a boyfriend when most of my friends are married with kids, or least moved out. Not allowed out of the house/not allowed to drive unless it's to go shopping with parents. No parties. No friends. No socialisation. Literally locked at home. That's why I thought it was suitable for me to get Sunny at this time. He gives me an excuse to go out more, even if it is to do his things. Without him, I would go insane living here.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Oh, also because I love him to death because now I have some kind of purpose! 




That purpose being waking up 5 times in the middle of the night to clean up diarrhea.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Momo, I would ring the vet and see if they want you to take him in again. Vets may not be open on Saturday because of Anzac Day so you need to keep that in mind. He was coming good and now is going backwards again so I would call them. Better start collecting poop samples!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Harleysmum said:


> Momo, I would ring the vet and see if they want you to take him in again. Vets may not be open on Saturday because of Anzac Day so you need to keep that in mind. He was coming good and now is going backwards again so I would call them. Better start collecting poop samples!


Agreed... something ain't right.



momo_ said:


> In strict Asian households, children are required to stay with their families until they're married. I don't see that happening any time soon, so I'm just wasting my early 20s away under their control. Not allowed a boyfriend when most of my friends are married with kids, or least moved out. Not allowed out of the house/not allowed to drive unless it's to go shopping with parents. No parties. No friends. No socialisation. Literally locked at home. That's why I thought it was suitable for me to get Sunny at this time. He gives me an excuse to go out more, even if it is to do his things. Without him, I would go insane living here.


Also sorry to read this. It must be tough. 

On the plus side you have an amazing puppie and the time to invest in him.

Also the real world sucks, bills bills bills work bills work


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## Chaoticnot (Aug 14, 2011)

Momo, I have an older golden who had a chicken sensitivity, it gave him diarrhea. Perhaps try boiled ground beef and rice instead of chicken?


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

momo_ said:


> Diarrhea at 8:30 and 10:30pm, then 12am, 12:50 squat with nothing, 4:30 and 6:30.
> Does a fast begin from the last time he's fed, or the last he has a round of diarrhea?
> I'd hate to do another 24-hour fast so soon, but I can do 14-15 hours between dinner last night and breakfast today.


Oooooh. That's NOT good. Can you try a different vet? I'm not sure you're getting the best advice. I personally would not want to keep fasting a puppy. There is an issue that needs to be found and dealt with. 

Pups with negative fecals CAN have a parasite. He might also have a chicken allergy. I know how hard the costs are, but you have to figure out what is wrong. There IS something wrong. This constant diarrhea is not normal, and he is probably in pain. I feel so bad for you and him, especially since you don't seem to have much support. 

I would stop the chicken at the very least. Try ground beef instead, still with the rice. (Though, I might do several meals of JUST rice first, to see if that helps calm things down and firm things up). Do you have another vet option? Sometimes a second opinion can be really helpful - a new set of eyes.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I've been concerned about a chicken allergy as well. On Royal Canin, he scratches and scratches. On a chicken and rice diet, he's still scratching so much. But it could be a grass allergy?

After that bout of diarrhea, yesterday I fed him minimal breakfast and lunch, then a full dinner and breakfast this morning. He pooped and it was back to normal - well it wasn't runny, it was small, solid, dark grey, full of dried grass. Also no diarrhea last night, slept through the night fine in his crate! On the night the diarrhea started again, I remembered at lunch, just lunch, I added a teaspoon of pumpkin to his meal. Yes, please shoot me. 

I looked it up and to the best of my knowledge, there is only one source on the interwebz that suggests pumpkin could cause diarrhea, while the rest praise pumpkin for firming up loose stools and gets things moving when they're constipated. So I asked the breeder about it, and she said even the tiniest addition to a bland diet may cause an upset while his system is highly sensitive. Makes sense. 

So the first round of diarrhea began due to an obstruction a few weeks ago. Then the second round probably from introducing new treats, over-treating and/or giving him some cheese. And when it occurred 2 nights ago, it happened the day I added pumpkin. Chritty must be so disappointed, I recall him telling me to ditch pumpkin a few times but I was certain it wouldn't have any negative effects. Perhaps it'll be okay again once I know he's 100%. 

Both the breeder and the vet have suggested I make the transition to Pro Plan once things are okay. I'm fairly sure the diarrhea episodes are from dietary indiscretions (my bad), so I'll begin adding Pro Plan to his next meal. The breeder says he's going to have diarrhea anyway whether I do it sooner or later, so I may as well start now. Sleepless nights for another 7 or so days while this happens. Apparently, Sunny's dad was not blessed with an iron gut either, and would have intermittent diarrhea even as a 3-4 year old. The diarrhea persisted for 5 days during a transition to a grain-free diet, so I imagine for a puppy, Sunny's diarrhea will last even longer while we which to PP. His dad does great on a grain-free diet, no more runs. I wonder if allergies can sometimes be genetic...? 

Pro Plan is fish-based, no chicken, so if the itching stops, then perhaps he has a chicken allergy. If Pro Plan doesn't work out, the breeder suggested I try Canidae grain-free. From reading some reviews on GRF and other sources, this also sounds like a good food!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I'm not disappointed!!! Just like everyone else I'm worried about him and you. 

I do like Sweetgirl's idea of perhaps switching to some beef mince and rice instead of chicken to atleast start trying out the chicken intolerance hypothesis.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> I've been concerned about a chicken allergy as well. On Royal Canin, he scratches and scratches. On a chicken and rice diet, he's still scratching so much. But it could be a grass allergy?
> 
> After that bout of diarrhea, yesterday I fed him minimal breakfast and lunch, then a full dinner and breakfast this morning. He pooped and it was back to normal - well it wasn't runny, it was small, solid, dark grey, full of dried grass. Also no diarrhea last night, slept through the night fine in his crate! On the night the diarrhea started again, I remembered at lunch, just lunch, I added a teaspoon of pumpkin to his meal. Yes, please shoot me.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear he might be on the mend. Hopefully the change in food corrects things. Maybe you'll luck out and he won't get diarrhea as you make the switch! I think you deserve a break for sure!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

We just bought bulk chicken and freezed it! I hope to God he's not allergic to chicken. It's his favourite training treat and it's considerably more affordable which is a bonus! Plus I can just cut the pieces small and use plenty for training, whereas 1/2 cup of kibble is not enough for a long training session. 

If he did have a chicken intolerance, would the symptoms be more severe - like vomiting, diarrhea, or pulling out chunks of his fur? None of those occur on a chicken diet, except for chewing on his inner thighs. From certain angles, you can't see any fur there.  



> Glad to hear he might be on the mend. Hopefully the change in food corrects things. Maybe you'll luck out and he won't get diarrhea as you make the switch! I think you deserve a break for sure!


Solid poop after a breakfast of chicken and rice, and solid poop after a lunch of chicken and rice + 15 pieces of kibble. There was some mucus coating it though but I don't think that's too concerning? Another 15 pieces was added to his dinner. Fingers crossed for no diarrhea tonight! I've got high hopes.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

8:30pm - He squatted. I held my breath. I heard the squelching. And my heart just sank.

(still a better love story than Twilight) 

It was only a very, very small amount - runny and lumpy with mucous. I'm assuming this is his system reacting to Pro Plan. Here we go. I'm in for a week of no sleep. Poor Sunny...


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

momo_ said:


> 8:30pm - He squatted. I held my breath. I heard the squelching. And my heart just sank.
> 
> (still a better love story than Twilight)
> 
> It was only a very, very small amount - runny and lumpy with mucous. I'm assuming this is his system reacting to Pro Plan. Here we go. I'm in for a week of no sleep. Poor Sunny...


The mucous more suggests there is something else going on - not just the food switch. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I really think he needs to be treated again for parasites - a good long course of treatment. Poor boy has had diarrhea for way too long. He must be in such discomfort.  Just as an example, after we got Shala's diarrhea treated, she did not have any trouble at all switching to ProPlan. If it's not a chicken allergy, the food switch, if done slowly, should not cause such distress.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

You really need a new vet or you demand your current vet give you answers. There is something wrong with him.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sweet Girl said:


> The mucous more suggests there is something else going on - not just the food switch. I hate to sound like a broken record, but I really think he needs to be treated again for parasites - a good long course of treatment. Poor boy has had diarrhea for way too long. He must be in such discomfort.  Just as an example, after we got Shala's diarrhea treated, she did not have any trouble at all switching to ProPlan. If it's not a chicken allergy, the food switch, if done slowly, should not cause such distress.


Every time we've switched back to chicken and rice, his poops firmed back up immediately the next morning. I was assuming that if it were parasites, no amount of chicken and rice would help. Add pumpkin = diarrhea. Add Pro Plan = diarrhea. So far, it just seems like he's very sensitive to *any* dietary change, but I'm no expert, and I agree that this is very odd and upsetting to see. The breeder predicted he'd have diarrhea during the switch to PP and would continue to have it for around 5 days before I see improvements in stool firmness. 5-10 days of a constant upset stomach sounds horrible though. 
I have no choice but to wait until Monday morning to see the vet, around 36 hours away. 

The vet has not been dismissive at all, by the way! She suggested a 24-hour fast, then 4-5 days of chicken and rice, and if all goes well, then start Pro Plan. If things DIDN'T go well with chicken and rice, then she said to bring stool samples for a full fecal test. I would much prefer a vet who is willing to try something like this, before rushing to conclusions, which I appreciate. If we ignore the pumpkin blip, then I am up to the last stage (beginning PP), and that's when things are going downhill. 


I'll be copping a lot of s*** from my parents about this once again (as if I don't get enough of it already from Sunny, literally), but it is what it is, and you're all right, I think a proper test to rule out all parasites and infection is needed. If it comes back negative... then that just complicates things further. 

And yes, I am up at 2am because he's had diarrhea for the 3rd time tonight.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

I was so keeping my fingers crossed for you that the PP wouldn't cause any more stomach upset. Sorry to hear that is not the case. I think you are really strong in how you are handling all of this. I feel stressed for you and Sunny. 
I can just imagine how your parents are being... I don't want to weigh in on your situation too much, but I would seriously consider applying to jobs and moving out on your own ASAP. I have been living on my own since I was 17. Put myself through undergrad and graduate school. It was difficult... but, living with very little and no parental support was a lot better than living in misery under my parents thumb.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I have been told by so many people to move out. Believe me, I would if I could. Freedom would be the greatest gift to me, it's something everyone in a western society should have without having to fight for it. But it's not that simple in an Asian family. Moving out and "abandoning" your parents is probably the biggest dishonourable act, it is absolutely not an option for me. My parents would actually go insane and kill themselves. 

I also have to think about Sunny. Here, we get free accommodation and when I start a full-time job, my parents will be home to watch him during the day. I only have to pay for his expenses, and my personal materialistic things, whereas if I were to move out, I don't think I'd be able to financially support both of us. At least not any time soon. 
My best hope is to hold on for a few more years then get married... or fake one!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sunny has managed to cost me around $6000 already and it's only been 3 months. I am actively seeking a job right now but not trying as hard as I should. I guess I just want to make sure he'll be okay for my parents to handle when I start working, probably right when he hits adolescence! Uh oh.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Ya, I figured when I made the suggestion that your parents would probably disown you. But, then again, I didn't think they would kill themselves over it... I mean only you are in your situation and to know what you can handle and what you can't. Though if you get to the point that you cannot do it anymore, there is no reason to believe you couldn't support yourself and Sunny on your own, so long as you are working. I do hope you do get a job soon, so at least that will get you out of the house and meeting other people more often. And keep your fingers crossed for me, as I am currently job hunting as well. 

It's 1am over there right now. Hope you are getting a good nights sleep tonight!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Oh, Momo!!! What country are your parents from? I have friends who are Thai, Korean, Japanese, Filipino (some of them born in the US, some not but parents born elsewhere), Vietnamese, and Indian and none of them are like this with their kids. I wonder if they get worn down living here in the US and just can't fight with their kids anymore . . . maybe it is peer pressure on the parents themselves from their (parents') friends? AND, many of my friends have come from single-parent families so they have already sort of broken tradition, I guess. Many of them have had dads who sort of abandoned them, so marriage is likely not too high a priority.

I think, once you get a job, things will change. Your parents probably still see you as a student and child. With a career-type job they will respect that you have obligations to a boss, and will see you differently. You will likely have more freedom. I think it will be awesome for you to be able to save-- not having money is a big stress, too. 

I really hope this is figured out quickly. How about going grain-free? I know of a dog who had endless diarrhea and was put on meds for parasites for a long time. Nothing helped. Finally the dog was put on grain free and had no issues. I know the vet should be #1 but sometimes we have to take matters into our own hands. We care more than any vet or doctor!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Sunny has managed to cost me around $6000 already and it's only been 3 months.


Far out... Aside from the initial cost of Sunny. What on? A couple of Vet visits?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

> Ya, I figured when I made the suggestion that your parents would probably disown you. But, then again, I didn't think they would kill themselves over it... I mean only you are in your situation and to know what you can handle and what you can't. Though if you get to the point that you cannot do it anymore, there is no reason to believe you couldn't support yourself and Sunny on your own, so long as you are working. I do hope you do get a job soon, so at least that will get you out of the house and meeting other people more often. And keep your fingers crossed for me, as I am currently job hunting as well.
> 
> It's 1am over there right now. Hope you are getting a good nights sleep tonight!


I think I'd be HAPPY if my parents disowned me, because that'd mean I can get away from them! At the moment, I am content with staying home while Sunny is young. Once he's around 2+, I can feel less guilty leaving him home alone while I work if I move out. 

I've got my fingers crossed for you! Let us know if you've got any upcoming interviews and we'll send lots of luck your way. 



> Oh, Momo!!! What country are your parents from? I have friends who are Thai, Korean, Japanese, Filipino (some of them born in the US, some not but parents born elsewhere), Vietnamese, and Indian and none of them are like this with their kids. I wonder if they get worn down living here in the US and just can't fight with their kids anymore . . . maybe it is peer pressure on the parents themselves from their (parents') friends? AND, many of my friends have come from single-parent families so they have already sort of broken tradition, I guess. Many of them have had dads who sort of abandoned them, so marriage is likely not too high a priority.


My mum is Vietnamese/Thai, and my dad is Lao (Laos is a sister country to Thailand). Even my family in Thailand aren't as strict as my parents in Australia. And you're absolutely right, you can't fight your kids in a Western country. It's a completely different culture. You can't expect kids to follow a culture you've moved away from, yet live harmoniously in a country where everyone does things differently. I struggled in school, because my friends got mad at me for not being able to hang out or sleepover. Eventually, I got tired of explaining so my response became "I can't, I'm Asian" and left it at that. Throughout the 3.5 years of university, I didn't make any real friends because I wasn't allowed to see them if I did. My mum wanted to see them first, ask for their address and home phone numbers. That was just too weird for everyone so I didn't bother. 
In Asian culture particularly, families like to "compare" their children's achievements/careers/lifestyle - it serves as an indication of how successful the parents are as well. So if their child fails, the family's reputation is ruined and the whole family and town gossip about it long after they die. 
My mum has 10 siblings, my dad 7. I'm put under a lot of pressure to do better than others because my mum is the most highly-respected sibling of them all. She's been putting down other people's choices, been a marriage counsellor for my cousins, setting them up with wealthy folks. She doesn't quite understand that in Australia, we're not a third-world country, we have the choice to marry for LOVE, not money. If she wants me to follow her standards, I'm afraid I'm going up being a lonely person with 10 dogs. 
At my graduation, my dad looked so, so disappointed in every photo because I wasn't graduating with a Bachelor or Masters in Medicine or Law. I don't *need* a high-paying career like that in Australia. They just want me to do something worth bragging about. 




> I think, once you get a job, things will change. Your parents probably still see you as a student and child. With a career-type job they will respect that you have obligations to a boss, and will see you differently. You will likely have more freedom. I think it will be awesome for you to be able to save-- not having money is a big stress, too.


I'm hoping things will change a little once I get a job too! I have enough money to start renting a place, to pay bills and support me and Sunny without a job for about a year. Problem is, my mum is the only one that has access to it. She has control of everything, huh. 

It seems I've gone really off-topic and ranted about my life on a dog forum. Everything just happens to be linked to my parents. Thank you all for being so kind and patient. 



> I really hope this is figured out quickly. How about going grain-free? I know of a dog who had endless diarrhea and was put on meds for parasites for a long time. Nothing helped. Finally the dog was put on grain free and had no issues. I know the vet should be #1 but sometimes we have to take matters into our own hands. We care more than any vet or doctor!


Back on topic! About grain-free, YES! Okay, so yesterday, we had a golden retriever meet up at the dog park with goldens from the same breeder. Great turn out - we got around 14 dogs! Anytime I've mentioned "the breeder", I'm actually referring to her daughter, who is also a breeder and vet nurse. I spoke to her about Sunny's problems and she is 100% certain he is not ill. She thinks that if he had parasites, or giardia/coccidia, or any disease, chicken and rice would not mask the diarrhea. And she recommended skipping Pro Plan and going straight to grain-free - this fixed up her dog's diarrhea (her dog is Sunny's dad). Since I already bought the bag of Pro Plan, I really want to give it a go first. She says he's going to have diarrhea during the switch anyway, but it should start to improve over the course of 7 days. Yesterday was day 2 of the switch, and by the end of the day, his stools looked borderline diarrhea, but there was an outline of a form, mushy, but not full-on watery. 
My mum offered to sleep downstairs with Sunny for me last night, so I had a lovely sleep upstairs for the first time in a while! She said he pooped at 3am, and at around 8:30am after breakfast, and both times were semi-formed. I'll be going downstairs to do a poop inspection soon. This sounds A LOT better than runny, mucous-y, diarrhea x6 on the first night of Pro Plan, so things have definitely improved.

I'm not writing off going to the vet, but I want to believe his diarrhea is simply from dietary indiscretions that don't require medication. If his stools continue to improve until they're completely solid, then I'll just leave him be. If not, then I'll take him to the vet, and then ask them about grain-free. The breeder recommended Canidae grain-free. There's a puppy formula, but only chicken, which he may or may not be allergic to, so the breeder said an adult formula with a different protein would be fine for him. I'd chat to the vet about this.

Edit: Just did a bit of reading. Apparently grain-free isn't good for puppies? If Pro Plan doesn't work, I'll have to somehow find out if he's allergic to chicken, and if not, I might put him on Canidae grain-free chicken for puppies. Fingers crossed PP works though. If it does, I'll keep him on it until he's at least a year old!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> Far out... Aside from the initial cost of Sunny. What on? A couple of Vet visits?


The initial cost was quite a lot! I'm guessing around standard for Australian breeders' prices. 
Vet visits, medication, routine care (heartworming etc.) has cost close to 1k, I think. Then his supplies like beds, crate, grooming, food, TOYS, oh goodness, so many toys, has cost a lot too. I remember spending on average around $100-200 each WEEK buying new things for him. I've stopped that recently. 
The dog training annual membership was close to $500. 
The expenses have slowed down though. Hopefully he gets better, because the cost of a full fecal test, 2 weeks of medication and possibly an allergy and/or blood test will cost at least $500. 
It really adds up, doesn't it...


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Oh yeah, I guess if you look at it that way it would be about right... Wow...


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Huh... it's funny how similar your situation with your parents is to what I had with my Dad and stepmom. Although they are not Asian, they too had control of everything (e.g. not letting me go anywhere or talk to anyone they did not know), including my money and actually ended stealing a large amount of it away from me (not that your parents would do that). I wanted to leave when I was in high school, but waited to move away until university, because it seemed like a smarter decision than trying to make it on my own at 15. Those years of waiting were so hard! I tried to make it work with them after I left, but nothing changed... and if anything the verbal abuse worsened because they had less control over how I was living my life, and felt they had a right to criticize everything I did. I am glad you have Sunny to help you get through this. 
I also think that Sunny's situation could still be diet related. Though if things don't get better soon, he may need a second round of medication to help him recover. I am sure you have thought of this already, but once he does finally get his poop back to normal, I would wait a long time before introducing him to anything new. Really stick to treats that you know he is okay with and I wouldn't give him to many. Introduce things slowly and cautiously, and one thing at at time. 
Looking forward to the next poop update (isn't that weird), and keeping my fingers crossed its a good one. 
I'll keep up posted about the interview thing. I had last week with a head hunter and I am currently waiting to hear if I will get a second interview with the company. Finding that first career when you are a fresh grad is so hard! Hopefully it happens for us soon!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Huh... it's funny how similar your situation with your parents is to what I had with my Dad and stepmom. Although they are not Asian, they too had control of everything (e.g. not letting me go anywhere or talk to anyone they did not know), including my money and actually ended stealing a large amount of it away from me (not that your parents would do that). I wanted to leave when I was in high school, but waited to move away until university, because it seemed like a smarter decision than trying to make it on my own at 15. Those years of waiting were so hard! I tried to make it work with them after I left, but nothing changed... and if anything the verbal abuse worsened because they had less control over how I was living my life, and felt they had a right to criticize everything I did. I am glad you have Sunny to help you get through this.


I never thought I'd meet someone on GRF who had such a similar situation! I can relate to the verbal abuse big time. It's such a crappy environment to live in so I'm very glad you could leave. 17 is a young age and it seems you've managed awesome! I haven't been given any opportunity to be an independent adult. I'd love to be able to just drive Sunny to the beach whenever I like, but I'm not allowed to drive (without a parent), even though I've had my licence for 4 years. I'm not allowed ANYWHERE without a parent there supervising. Honestly, they think I'm my age with the numbers swapped around. 

I'm not quite so fresh. I've been out of uni for almost a year now, didn't bother finding a job right after I graduated because 3 months later I was going overseas for 3 months, then after that I got Sunny. I really need to start making a bigger effort and just trust teen Sunny will be okay with my parents! 
Hoping you get a second interview!!! :crossfing:crossfing:crossfing

No poop update. No poops for the past 24 hours, how odd! If it's not constant diarrhea, it's constipation. The last time he did poop, I hosed it down and found a whole piece of Kleenex tissue... 
Please don't be another obstruction. Maybe things are just firming up inside him?! 
If there are no improvements, I'll definitely take him in. As for treats, I think I should throw out everything - that's about 7-8 kinds. Peanut butter, yoghurt, chicken jerky strips, puppy milk sticks, liver cookies, Schmacko's liver straps, Schmacko's twists... I don't think he's reacted negatively to any of them though. He used to have different treats throughout the day and he'd be fine for weeks. But yes, if he does get better, I'll stick to plain chicken bits for treats, and introduce anything one at a time, very slowly.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

After a really solid, dry poop at 12pm, Sunny just did a pile of semi-formed loose stools, then another half-mushy, half diarrhea, then another tiny pile of watery diarrhea. :'( 
I don't get how he can go from great poop to sudden diarrhea with just chicken, rice and the small addition of Pro Plan. 
About 24 hours ago, he did receive some VIP Pet Foods Lamb Chunker treats provided at training school (which he's been okay with having previously) because we ran out of chicken half way through the class. Could it be that? I thought if it was that it'd have affected him earlier on. I know I'm not supposed to feed treats but I wouldn't have been able to continue class without my own chicken treats left...


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

How many days has it been now. 

It seems like forever.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> How many days has it been now.
> 
> It seems like forever.


Feels like it hey. Since the first round which started 4 weeks ago is unrelated to this, I won't include it. So it started around 10-11 days ago, with solid poops inbetween before I included pumpkin, and before the introduction of Pro Plan, and before I had to feed those training school treats. I brought heaps of chicken for tonight's class and still managed to run out. Had to use a bit more of the lamb chunkers.  
When he went before, I'd say it was closer to "loose stools" than diarrhea. I'll see if things firm up again tomorrow morning. It might continue like this until the end of Pro Plan transition.

Edit: Been reading up on allergy tests a little. I can't be bothered doing trial and error on my own. I just want to know accurate results of whether or not he's allergic to this or that so I can put him on a food and stick with it. Does anyone know how much I can expect to pay for an allergy test? No more than $400, I hope.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

The thing is, if you are doing a slow transition to a new food, you DON'T get diarrhea. That's why you do it so slowly. Diarrhea for this long is not normal or healthy. Especially when there is mucous in it, too. And it's likely not the food. Sorry.  I know you have spent a lot, but I think it is worth an entirely new vet visit. New eyes, new tests, new meds. Meds even if the fecal is negative. Something is going on.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Sweet Girl said:


> The thing is, if you are doing a slow transition to a new food, you DON'T get diarrhea. That's why you do it so slowly. Diarrhea for this long is not normal or healthy. Especially when there is mucous in it, too. And it's likely not the food. Sorry.  I know you have spent a lot, but I think it is worth an entirely new vet visit. New eyes, new tests, new meds. Meds even if the fecal is negative. Something is going on.


I somewhat disagree with this, and some of your previous posts. Mucous = bowel inflamed. This does not mean for sure that the pup has a parasite as mentioned in one of your previous posts. Rundle had extreme mucous the week she had diarrhea, and she did not have a parasite. If the bowel is already very aggravated, even a slow transition to a new food/or treats might be enough to upset it. However, I do agree that this has been going on too long to be healthy, and another round of meds are probably going to be needed to help Sunny along. Pups just don't seem to bounce back as easily as adult dogs too. Another fecal test just to confirm that it is food related couldn't hurt either.
Sorry momo


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I'm so paranoid about going to a new vet. I don't want to go to a third vet and have 3 different vet histories for Sunny's pet insurance. It'd look dodgy. 
If he gets diarrhea tonight/tomorrow morning, I'll collect the samples and make an appointment. Although unlikely, perhaps the cost of medication/tests may be covered by the insurance company, assuming the vet has not linked this round of diarrhea with the first one!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

The insurance company will be the ones who determine if there's a previous history


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Chritty said:


> The insurance company will be the ones who determine if there's a previous history


Depends how the vet wrote the notes though. The first time Sunny was treated for diarrhea, it was during the waiting period, and so whatever he had is now a "pre-existing" condition. If they concluded it was from bark ingestion, then it would not be related to this issue so this should be covered. But I don't put any hope in it, there are so many exclusions, pet insurance is just for the really serious things.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

So.

Not for nothing and It's just my experience with Ben talking and I'm probably way off base here. 

But Ben had it until about Sunny's age. His poo wasn't fully formed until 5 months as well









The only thing that changed that was when we let him sleep with us. Now I'm not suggesting that the reason was because he was anxious about sleeping along in the kitchen (I know you sleep with him, but in a very open area).

My theory, and take it for what its worth. Move Sunny into your bedroom... see what happens. 

Also on another topic, I want you to post a picture of his dinner and post it here, I want to see what and how much and how solid it is (remember porridge in porridge out)


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> So.
> 
> Not for nothing and It's just my experience with Ben talking and I'm probably way off base here.
> 
> ...


That is so odd! Goodness Ben. And it just cleared up as soon as you moved him into your bedroom? 
I actually think Sunny is used to the open area, he likes it. But if I were to confine him in one room with me, he might feel claustrophobic.

I'll take a picture of lunch and post it. 

I also called the vet. After explaining the situation, she thinks it sounds like he's got a food allergy. I'm taking a stool sample in today and they'll sent it away to do a full test at a lab, and if it comes back negative, they want to put him on a hypoallergenic food for 6-8 week!  I asked about an allergy test so I don't have to wait so long and she said it'd cost $580 which is more expensive than the food, but less time-consuming. I forgot to ask about a grain-free diet, but I'll do that when I go in today.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> That is so odd! Goodness Ben. And it just cleared up as soon as you moved him into your bedroom?
> I actually think Sunny is used to the open area, he likes it. But if I were to confine him in one room with me, he might feel claustrophobic.
> 
> I'll take a picture of lunch and post it.


Yes over night, it cleared up, it was odd, Like I mention in another post of something I read about them being pack animals and pack animals sleep with the pack. and You being part of his pack etc etc. That's all I can put it down to


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## goldenewbie (Nov 10, 2011)

Hi momo_ , 

I have been following your journey silently for this long, I keep coming back to see if Sunny is having normal poop... Really sorry that this is continuing for this long. Hope he bounces back soon!

I don't have the experience that most others on this forum have, but my vet told me something about parasites that I had not read on this thread before. So I just wanted to share it. She told me, to make sure that when a fecal test is ordered, they order a more detailed one, she told me that many vets do the test in house, when ideally they should be sending it out to a labwith a centrifuge. This is especially true for hard to detect parasites like Giardia, which is very very common, and can definitely cause long and mucousy episodes of diarrhea. She was telling me that she saw a definite increase in the number of reports when they started with the detailed test, were able to catch it early enough. 

Also, my sister has a corgi with a very very sensitive stomach + allergies, and when she changes food, she actually counts the kibble pieces (2..4...8...16...) per meal, increasing every three days, and stops if she notices the consistency of her dog's poop changing. So I guess thats the kind of SLOW transition that allows her to try new kibble without causing diarrhea. I know it sounds painful... but I was able to detect changes to Murphy's poop and avert crisis a few times by taking her advice! She is also very very careful with treats. She always tries new treats very slowly, and makes sure at least she sees at least 3 good poops before increasing the quantity. I guess this sounds really really cautious, but I think it has worked very well for her with her dog. 

Lastly, if you are suspecting a chicken/poultry allergy, and want to give something bland, have you tried rice and cottage cheese? I got fat free cottage cheese, and when Murphy had diarrhea because of giardia, it helped him tremendously. It got him back on track really soon, his poop was yellow and soft, but not runny in any sense.. and I got him back to his (regular) kibble by transitioning over a 2 week period. 

Good luck!







3Pebs3 said:


> I somewhat disagree with this, and some of your previous posts. Mucous = bowel inflamed. This does not mean for sure that the pup has a parasite as mentioned in one of your previous posts. Rundle had extreme mucous the week she had diarrhea, and she did not have a parasite. If the bowel is already very aggravated, even a slow transition to a new food/or treats might be enough to upset it. However, I do agree that this has been going on too long to be healthy, and another round of meds are probably going to be needed to help Sunny along. Pups just don't seem to bounce back as easily as adult dogs too. Another fecal test just to confirm that it is food related couldn't hurt either.
> Sorry momo


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## ladyjay (Apr 16, 2015)

Have you tried pepto-bismal or kaopectate to clear up the diarrhea? I have had to use it for Duchess to clear it up. Last time I used the pill version because it was war to get the liquid down her throat. I had to do that for my other dog when she was teething also.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

> Yes over night, it cleared up, it was odd, Like I mention in another post of something I read about them being pack animals and pack animals sleep with the pack. and You being part of his pack etc etc. That's all I can put it down to


Ben is such a unique case! Sunny's crate is so close to my bed though, and lately I've been leaving the door open and the blanket covering it draped to the side so he can see me. He stays in his crate all night (unless he needs to potty) which is good. His poops are so inconsistent, I'm likely to think it's more of a health issue. I just can't trust him upstairs while this is going on. 



> I have been following your journey silently for this long, I keep coming back to see if Sunny is having normal poop... Really sorry that this is continuing for this long. Hope he bounces back soon!


Hey *goldennewbie*, thanks so much for your contribution! I just dropped off a fecal sample to the vet today and they'll be sending it away to a lab for a full test. It cost $180, so I'm hoping it'll give me an accurate result! If it comes back positive, then I guess it's good, we'll know how to treat it. If it's negative, then that complicates things. At least the test is done and I can stop worrying about it. 

And wow, that is a very slow transition! At that rate, I'm guessing it would take around 3 weeks? I was starting off with 10 kibbles, then 15, then 25, then 35, now it's *day 5* and I said stuff it, I'll just give him a 1/4 cup, which is probably around 45 pieces. Sounds like a lot, but it's nothing in the cup... 

This morning his poop started solid and well-formed, but then ended mushy all of a sudden. This is the sample I provided the vet. She said to put him back on chicken and rice for 5 days. This would be week 5 of chicken and rice on and off. He is so thin. I asked if I could continue with the slow Pro Plan transition, hoping the diarrhea is from last night's training school treats. She said yes. Just 10 minutes ago, he had diarrhea with a lot of mucous in it, and hosing it down gently, I think I saw a small blood clot.  He squatted a second time and it was all clearish-white mucous dripping out. Goodness Sunny. It's so heart-breaking to see, but I'm glad I took in the sample. Wish I could've taken the sample with blood in it, not sure if that'd provide a better analysis? 

And I asked the vet about *grain-free*, she said she'd never heard of it... WHAT! 
Isn't grain-free food really common? I'm surprised a vet wouldn't know about this. I expressed interest in *Canidae *grain-free and wanted to ask about the adult and puppy formulas, but she's never heard of Canidae either. I swear they're brainwashed to promote Royal Canin only and have no clue about other brands. Don't think she knew of Pro Plan either. 
If the fecal test comes back negative, I'll just pay for the $580 allergy test. I cannot be bothered waiting around 8 weeks on a prescription food to find out whether he has an allergy or not. I don't think the food helps you determine what the allergy actually is. 

This is exhausting, and I'm sure everyone's exhausted from reading about Sunny's poo journey, but this is such a great place to vent about it without sounding like a complete lunatic. We appreciate the support and advice SO much. Thank you!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

*Marcus*, here's a picture of Sunny's lunch. It's 1 cup of rice, 2 tablespoons of chicken pieces, and 1/4 of Pro Plan (we're on day 5). 

And he's recently started to drool so much while I prepare his food. Yes, that is drool dripping down on both sides. :doh: Hard to see because of the background. Poor guy looks so thin and I don't know what's going on with his coat. Once we figure out what's going on hopefully he'll be on a food that'll promote healthy hair growth!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

What the what???? Hasn't heard of grain-free food?? WHAT?

He is such a cute. He does look thin . . .but I don't see anything wrong with his coat?

I am lost now, though. When was the last time he had chicken? At class?

Oh, duh . . .now I see the chicken! I would just switch him to ProPlan, and get him off the rice/chicken. If the PP does not work, then I would do grain free.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Anele said:


> What the what???? Hasn't heard of grain-free food?? WHAT?
> 
> He is such a cute. He does look thin . . .but I don't see anything wrong with his coat?
> 
> ...


I know right, what kind of vet doesn't know about grain-free! I've been to 2 vets and popped by another - neither of the 3 had seen an Easy Walk harness before. 

His coat is just very short which is okay, it'll grow eventually, but it's also looks and feels thin. He's been biting and itching everywhere, particularly his inner thighs and now he's bald there. 
He's always had chicken, but at class I didn't bring enough so I had to use the training treats they provide. 
I've only just started giving him up to 1/4 cup of PP so I don't want to give him a full cup straight up, it might make things even worse.  I found a small solid poop in the backyard just then, don't know if it was before or after the mucousy diarrhea. It's so up and down! 
But yes if the test comes back negative, I might do the allergy test to know 100% what he can and can't have, then if PP doesn't work I'll put him on grain-free. Canidae only makes one grain-free puppy formula and it's chicken. I don't know if he's got a mild chicken allergy or not so that's why I want to be sure with the test. It'll cost a lot but at least I'll know for life!


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## goldenewbie (Nov 10, 2011)

Best wishes momo_! I wish you get some clarity on this issue!

Yes the transition is very very slow. I think she does it, because her pup has a very sensitive stomach, and she , much like you, had a really tough time with diarrhea early on. She prefers taking it slow, rather than having to stop the kibble with a screeching halt and get back to rice. Also, like I said, she has a corgi, who weighs around 20lbs, so she adjusts for that accordingly. By the way this is how her (and my) vet recommended we go about it. 

You know, I was just wondering.. did you ask your breeder if any of the Sunny's family, or littermates had any such symptom/allergy? I have been in touch with many of Murphy's littermates, and it has given me a lot of peace of mind (and confidence) , esp after discussing my observations/greivances with them 




momo_ said:


> Hey *goldennewbie*, thanks so much for your contribution! I just dropped off a fecal sample to the vet today and they'll be sending it away to a lab for a full test. It cost $180, so I'm hoping it'll give me an accurate result! If it comes back positive, then I guess it's good, we'll know how to treat it. If it's negative, then that complicates things. At least the test is done and I can stop worrying about it.
> 
> And wow, that is a very slow transition! At that rate, I'm guessing it would take around 3 weeks? I was starting off with 10 kibbles, then 15, then 25, then 35, now it's *day 5* and I said stuff it, I'll just give him a 1/4 cup, which is probably around 45 pieces. Sounds like a lot, but it's nothing in the cup...
> 
> ...


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

goldenewbie said:


> Best wishes momo_! I wish you get some clarity on this issue!
> 
> Yes the transition is very very slow. I think she does it, because her pup has a very sensitive stomach, and she , much like you, had a really tough time with diarrhea early on. She prefers taking it slow, rather than having to stop the kibble with a screeching halt and get back to rice. Also, like I said, she has a corgi, who weighs around 20lbs, so she adjusts for that accordingly. By the way this is how her (and my) vet recommended we go about it.
> 
> You know, I was just wondering.. did you ask your breeder if any of the Sunny's family, or littermates had any such symptom/allergy? I have been in touch with many of Murphy's littermates, and it has given me a lot of peace of mind (and confidence) , esp after discussing my observations/greivances with them


Thank you so much! I hope so too.

It would be wise of me to do a very slow transition like that too, but I just feel terrible that he's been on chicken and rice for so long. If it were a 3, even 4 week transition from kibble to kibble, that'd be fine, but he's not growing enough on a bland diet. We went to a golden meet up and he was significantly smaller than his littermate, and looked about half the size of a golden only 2 weeks older from another litter. 
I haven't heard of any of the other littermates having issues like this, but I've been told his dad suffered diarrhea even as an adult! Nothing helped except a switch to a grain-free diet! That's what the breeder recommends. Eventually, I'd like to have him on grain-free anyway, but I really wanted to give Pro Plan a shot first since I already bought the bag, and heard such great experiences from people here... 

* POOP UPDATE *
Poop at the dog park at 4:30pm. It was a good amount, a FORMED log, but mushed when I picked it up. Another poop before dinner at around 6pm, it was semi-formed and loose. Another after dinner at around 6:20pm - diarrhea, a tiny amount. 

:no::no::no:


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Hang in there. We are all crossing our fingers. 
Yeah he does look thin but that's to be expected. 

Give him lots of cuddles for us


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

3Pebs3 said:


> I somewhat disagree with this, and some of your previous posts. Mucous = bowel inflamed. This does not mean for sure that the pup has a parasite as mentioned in one of your previous posts. Rundle had extreme mucous the week she had diarrhea, and she did not have a parasite. If the bowel is already very aggravated, even a slow transition to a new food/or treats might be enough to upset it. However, I do agree that this has been going on too long to be healthy, and another round of meds are probably going to be needed to help Sunny along. Pups just don't seem to bounce back as easily as adult dogs too. Another fecal test just to confirm that it is food related couldn't hurt either.
> Sorry momo


It's true - I am definitely coloured by my pup's experience with coccidia and giardia. All the symptoms Momo describes are so similar to what we went through. When Shala was having all the diarrhea, the mucous was one of the reasons my vet felt strongly it was parasitical (along with the pure liquid poo and the blood - and that it just wasn't easing up), even though we were getting negatives on the fecals (we finally got a positive weeks into it). But maybe it was the combination of all that she was putting together. I'm sure diarrhea from just a food change can produce mucous, but I also just feel like this is going on too long to just be about food (unless it is the chicken). I'm worried about Sunny.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sweet Girl said:


> It's true - I am definitely coloured by my pup's experience with coccidia and giardia. All the symptoms Momo describes are so similar to what we went through. When Shala was having all the diarrhea, the mucous was one of the reasons my vet felt strongly it was parasitical (along with the pure liquid poo and the blood - and that it just wasn't easing up), even though we were getting negatives on the fecals (we finally got a positive weeks into it). But maybe it was the combination of all that she was putting together. I'm sure diarrhea from just a food change can produce mucous, but I also just feel like this is going on too long to just be about food (unless it is the chicken). I'm worried about Sunny.


Greetings from an awake at 2am Momo. You know why. 

Since the sample is being sent away to a lab, it should be accurate, right? I don't think I afford to spent $200 over and over before we get a positive...


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

We are definitely all worried about Sunny. I am really hoping you are able to sort this out soon! Because he is looking thin, I was wondering if you are making sure you are giving him enough calories in chicken and rice everyday. For Rundle what we did is calculated how much chicken and rice to give based on the number of calories she is supposed to be getting from her regular kibble. She was still growing and gaining the weight the week she had diarrhea. I feel different from others in that I would not be worried about introducing him to PP, until the diarrhea is resolved. I know the vet said it was okay, but, the usually the thing to do is bland diet until the diarrhea is resolved. At this point I have somewhat lost confidence in your vet. Didn't know grain-free? Didn't give him anything to help with the diarrhea when you were there? I mean come on?! I also wouldn't have given him non-chicken treats if I had run out during the class the other day. I would have just observed the class and worked on it with Sunny at home. You cannot risk playing around with his diet anymore. I know this is coming across as a bit of tough love, but we all just really want to see Sunny get better!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> We are definitely all worried about Sunny. I am really hoping you are able to sort this out soon! Because he is looking thin, I was wondering if you are making sure you are giving him enough calories in chicken and rice everyday. For Rundle what we did is calculated how much chicken and rice to give based on the number of calories she is supposed to be getting from her regular kibble. She was still growing and gaining the weight the week she had diarrhea. I feel different from others in that I would not be worried about introducing him to PP, until the diarrhea is resolved. I know the vet said it was okay, but, the usually the thing to do is bland diet until the diarrhea is resolved. At this point I have somewhat lost confidence in your vet. Didn't know grain-free? Didn't give him anything to help with the diarrhea when you were there? I mean come on?! I also wouldn't have given him non-chicken treats if I had run out during the class the other day. I would have just observed the class and worked on it with Sunny at home. You cannot risk playing around with his diet anymore. I know this is coming across as a bit of tough love, but we all just really want to see Sunny get better!


I'm not sure about calories, I am kind of guessing based on answers I've read on the forum. If he's usually fed 1 cup of kibble per meal, I feed twice the amount, so 1 cup rice and 1 cup chicken. Since PP is being added, I decrease the chicken. There are 2 vets at the practice, the main one I've been seeing for routine care, and this one who I saw today who also fixed the problem last time with the medication and pulling bark out of his butt. I went to get a 2nd opinion from a different vet for that round of diarrhea and that was even worse. At this point, I don't want to risk a dodgy record jumping from vet to vet, I'm not sure the insurance will pay out as it is.
Yeah, my bad for giving him those non-chicken treats. 
It's all very concerning and upsetting. I don't feel as "strong" as I used to about this, but I'm going to do all I can so we see a resolution. What a s**tty start to life. Literally.


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## goldenewbie (Nov 10, 2011)

momo_ said:


> Thank you so much! I hope so too.
> 
> It would be wise of me to do a very slow transition like that too, but I just feel terrible that he's been on chicken and rice for so long. If it were a 3, even 4 week transition from kibble to kibble, that'd be fine, but he's not growing enough on a bland diet.


While I understand why you are worried about it, It is more important to cut your losses now, and focus on easing his stomach, so that you are able to give him his real food.. But you have to expect the road to recovery will be really slow, and you must give it some time. The bland food, I agree is not fully nutritive, but will definitely heal his stomach + intestines. and you can get back to your kibble the minute he is better. 

You have to treat his stomach like how it is when a human fractures his or her leg. You have to keep the leg in a cast for some minimum time, and not just cut it open and try running to see if your leg has healed or no. 

When Murphy had diarrhea (and they detected giardia), my vet told me to stick on a bland diet for 1.5 weeks!, no way out!



momo_ said:


> We went to a golden meet up and he was significantly smaller than his littermate, and looked about half the size of a golden only 2 weeks older from another litter.
> I haven't heard of any of the other littermates having issues like this, but I've been told his dad suffered diarrhea even as an adult! Nothing helped except a switch to a grain-free diet! That's what the breeder recommends. Eventually, I'd like to have him on grain-free anyway, but I really wanted to give Pro Plan a shot first since I already bought the bag, and heard such great experiences from people here...


Well, I had resolved not to do this.. (recommend another food), but have you asked your breeder what brand of food she uses? If she is nearby, maybe you can ask her for some to try, AFTER Sunny's stomach has healed. I am sure she wouldnt mind giving you some kibble to try. Secondly, don't worry about how the other puppies are different.. everyone feeds differently, and has different activity levels... and have growth spurts at different ages.. So it might be that. I don't mean to undermine the seriousness of Sunny's diarrhea, I am just saying that looking so minutely at everything, will really drive you crazy, and its best to focus on the most important of all the problems: Ease Sunny's stomach for now. Everything else can be dealt with later, and serially. 


Oh, and I whole heartedly support 3Pebs3's recommendation to stay off treats u dont know. They are the curveballs that no one expects!


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## goldenewbie (Nov 10, 2011)

momo_ said:


> It's all very concerning and upsetting. I don't feel as "strong" as I used to about this, but I'm going to do all I can so we see a resolution. What a s**tty start to life. Literally.


Hang in there momo_. We are all rooting for you and Sunny! Everything will be fine.. just have faith!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I thought I was going pretty slow with the transition... It'll be day 10 or 11 before he gets a full cup. He's been getting a solid poop or two each day, then the rest is loose or diarrhea, but the solid ones are what encourage me to believe Pro Plan is okay for him. There's a lot of conflicting advice to either stay on chicken and rice or just continue with the switch since the PP formula is designed to help the stomach anyway. :uhoh:
If I put him back on chicken and rice, I think I should increase the amount since he doesn't seem to be gaining weight. We're already at the 1 month mark of a bland diet on and off, it's no wonder he's so thin. 

The breeder feeds her dogs Kirkland Signature grain-free, I think, but she recommends Canidae if I want "the best grain-free". From what I've read, Canidae sounds good, and I'd rather go straight to the best I can get for him instead of trying others and then having to switch later on.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Kevin had poo problems last night! Was either chicken or banana.

Problem with chicken and rice is they can both be allergens. Can you switch to beef instead? Rice and beef? At least you will remove one variable.

The itchiness points to allergies!

By the way, Kevin has been on PP since day 1 because that's what the breeder used. I was going to switch but it has a lot of good reviews, I like that it is salmon, it has always been OK, and the price is good.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> I'm not sure about calories, I am kind of guessing based on answers I've read on the forum. If he's usually fed 1 cup of kibble per meal, I feed twice the amount, so 1 cup rice and 1 cup chicken. Since PP is being added, I decrease the chicken. There are 2 vets at the practice, the main one I've been seeing for routine care, and this one who I saw today who also fixed the problem last time with the medication and pulling bark out of his butt. I went to get a 2nd opinion from a different vet for that round of diarrhea and that was even worse. At this point, I don't want to risk a dodgy record jumping from vet to vet, I'm not sure the insurance will pay out as it is.
> Yeah, my bad for giving him those non-chicken treats.
> It's all very concerning and upsetting. I don't feel as "strong" as I used to about this, but I'm going to do all I can so we see a resolution. What a s**tty start to life. Literally.


Sounds like he's been getting about 450 calories per meal. Assuming you are giving him 3 meals per day, as long as he is under 44lbs that should be more than enough. Again you don't want to feed too much because that could also contribute to problems. 1 cup of boiled chicken is an awful lot of protein too. I know when Rundle has a lot of protein it softens her stool. I don't think I gave Rundle more than 4oz of chicken at any given time. I think giving some research and thought to the quantity and distribution of chicken/rice you are giving Sunny is worth some research and discussion.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Sounds like he's been getting about 450 calories per meal. Assuming you are giving him 3 meals per day, as long as he is under 44lbs that should be more than enough. Again you don't want to feed too much because that could also contribute to problems. 1 cup of boiled chicken is an awful lot of protein too. I know when Rundle has a lot of protein it softens her stool. I don't think I gave Rundle more than 4oz of chicken at any given time. I think giving some research and thought to the quantity and distribution of chicken/rice you are giving Sunny is worth some research and discussion.


It's actually more like 2 tablespoons of chicken pieces, not sure if that's a cup or not. It doesn't look like much, but we also use chicken for training everyday too so many it adds up. If anything I thought if anything, I was underfeeding a little since he's not gaining weight. Wouldn't decreasing chicken and increasing rice be giving him empty carbs with less nutrition?


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> It's actually more like 2 tablespoons of chicken pieces, not sure if that's a cup or not. It doesn't look like much, but we also use chicken for training everyday too so many it adds up. If anything I thought if anything, I was underfeeding a little since he's not gaining weight. Wouldn't decreasing chicken and increasing rice be giving him empty carbs with less nutrition?


Okay 2 tablespoons of chicken vs. a cup of chicken is EXTREMELY different! 2 tablespoons is 1/8 of a cup. You're essentially giving Sunny 230 calories per meal. That is only 690 calories! Unless you are giving him a ton of treats, you are majorly underfeeding Sunny. Comparably, Rundle weighs 30 pounds and gets fed 1080 calories per day right now. It's no wonder Sunny has been losing weight. This needs to be fixed ASAP!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Sorry, I did not know the s word was not allowed!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Sorry, I did not know the s word was not allowed!


Hahaha A lot of my posts get edited all the time usually by the mods... they're good about it though.

Turns out My potty mouth is offensive to the Americans, or it's usually lost in translation hahaha


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Okay 2 tablespoons of chicken vs. a cup of chicken is EXTREMELY different! 2 tablespoons is 1/8 of a cup. You're essentially giving Sunny 230 calories per meal. That is only 690 calories! Unless you are giving him a ton of treats, you are majorly underfeeding Sunny. Comparably, Rundle weighs 30 pounds and gets fed 1080 calories per day right now. It's no wonder Sunny has been losing weight. This needs to be fixed ASAP!


1/8?! What kind of cups are you talking about? Because a good 2 tablespoons of chicken bits fills up around 3/4 of a cup! Like the 250ml standard measuring cups? 
He receives around 1 cup of chicken (around 3 tablespoons) as training treats. Maybe I should've mentioned the tablespoons are fairly heaped. :
I have done some reading on the forum and so far have not seen recommendations for anything over 2 cups per meal, equal parts rice and chicken. 

I also found this on Yahoo! Answers (though I do take it with a grain of salt since it's an unreliable source): _He needs approximately 25 calories per pound. That's 1375 for a 55 pound dog. There are approximately 210 calories in a cup of boiled chicken and approximately 210 calories in a cup of boiled rice. He needs about 6 1/2 cups per day (1375/210 =6.5. _

So 3 cups of boiled rice is ~600 calories, and the average of various sources for cooked chicken is around ~210 calories per cup. I'm not feeding a full cup of chicken each meal, but the treats make it around a total of 3 cups.
So 600+600, he is getting around 1200 calories?


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Technically speaking, 4 tablespoons = 1/4 cup, so you can imagine my surprise! 

If Sunny is 55lbs, than 1200 calories is a good amount for him. You might be underfeeding him slightly, but, by a difference of like 50 calories. That being said a 50 calorie deficit can add up over the course of weeks. Measuring cups are horribly inaccurate too. We do all our feeding using a food scale. Rundle's diet is down to grams


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Technically speaking, 4 tablespoons = 1/4 cup, so you can imagine my surprise!
> 
> If Sunny is 55lbs, than 1200 calories is a good amount for him. You might be underfeeding him slightly, but, by a difference of like 50 calories. That being said a 50 calorie deficit can add up over the course of weeks. Measuring cups are horribly inaccurate too. We do all our feeding using a food scale. Rundle's diet is down to grams


Oh haha! No it's definitely a good amount of chicken, around 3/4 cups. He is around 40lbs not 55, that answer was just from someone else's question. So, maybe I'm overfeeding by a little? I don't want to overfeed as that would cause problems, and I don't want to underfeed because he's not gaining weight. 
I think I need to buy a food scale!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hahaha oh no.... this is just getting more confusing... now that I know Sunny is not 55lbs....according to the puppy food bag I have been following to feed Rundle, 44lbs is the height of feeding for large breeds, and then it decreases slightly as they reach 55lbs and 66lbs. According to our puppy food (Acana Puppy and Junior) a 44lb dog should be getting 1323 calories. I could calculate it out for exactly a 40lb dog if you wanted. But, essentially what this means is that Sunny may in fact be getting too little for this stage in his development. 
Food scales are great! They take away all the guess work of... is it 1 cup packed rice? or 1 cup loosely packed rice... etc.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Hahaha oh no.... this is just getting more confusing... now that I know Sunny is not 55lbs....according to the puppy food bag I have been following to feed Rundle, 44lbs is the height of feeding for large breeds, and then it decreases slightly as they reach 55lbs and 66lbs. According to our puppy food (Acana Puppy and Junior) a 44lb dog should be getting 1323 calories. I could calculate it out for exactly a 40lb dog if you wanted. But, essentially what this means is that Sunny may in fact be getting too little for this stage in his development.
> Food scales are great! They take away all the guess work of... is it 1 cup packed rice? or 1 cup loosely packed rice... etc.


It's really upsetting that the diarrhea is happening during this crucial stage of development. What's happening now isn't going to stunt his growth, is it...?


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> What's happening now isn't going to stunt his growth, is it...?


No, and stop thinking about other issues... close all the websites you currently looking at.

Follow the vets advise until the lab results come back


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## Chaoticnot (Aug 14, 2011)

I think the confusion about amounts is due to Americans using the cup/ounces measuring and Australia using ml.

1 cup is 237 ml
1 Tablespoon is 18 ml

So you can see why 3Pebs3 was so confused with 2 Tablespoons of chicken being such a small amount.

My eight year old golden, who I thought was sensitive to chicken, last year I had tested by HemoPet ( Dr. Jean Dodds) and it turns out he is not sensitive to chicken at all. But there were many other things he had a sensitivity to, including peas. So often it is some of the other ingredients in the food, rather than the main protein source. I think it's hard to go on recommendations from others, because each dog is so different, and reacts to differently to the various food groups. You have to find what works for Momo, and it just may take a while. You are doing all the right things, so hopefully you will find out what will work.

Just as an aside, when my older golden was having so many diarrhea issues, a pet store employee suggested I try New Zealand Green Lamb Tripe by Tripett. It was the grossest looking and smelling canned food I have ever seen, BUT, it worked and it did firm up his poops. It might be easier for you to find it in Australia as there were only a few sources of it here in America.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Chaoticnot said:


> I think the confusion about amounts is due to Americans using the cup/ounces measuring and Australia using ml.


*Sigh* I didn't even think of that... get with the program America


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> It's really upsetting that the diarrhea is happening during this crucial stage of development. What's happening now isn't going to stunt his growth, is it...?


I really only know about growth in humans. But, a lot of infants if they are born a healthy weight, catch-up once they are no longer ill and fed an appropriate amount for their age/weight. Maybe its the same for dogs?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Oooohh I can see how it's confusing now, my bad! 
I shouldn't have mentioned mls, but grams. Going to pick up a kitchen scale today. 
Pebs, would you mind sending me a link to the website that shows how to determine how many calories a dog needs etc.?


Chaoticnot, yeah it's hard trying to figure out what he is or isn't allergic too. The process of elimination is so time-consuming and sometimes inaccurate. Although an allergy test is really expensive, it's probably worthwhile having the knowledge for life.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hey momo, 
It's not a website I am using. I am just following the instructions for the amount of calories dogs are supposed to get based on the puppy food were feeding Rundle. We are actually feeding Rundle adult food now, but we have to give her extra to match the calories she would have been getting had we kept her on her puppy food. 
This puppy food we found had too high of protein in it for her, and we were having to add pumpkin to it to keep her stool solid. Finally, we said enough is enough and we switched her to a limited ingredient lower protein adult food (Acana Lamb and Okanagan Apple). But, the recommendations for adults are lower than they are for puppies. So, we use her puppy food still as a guideline for how many calories she should be getting. Anyways, here is the link. http://www.acana.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/ACA-DOG-WEB-PDF-2014-PJ-Lo.pdf?8bccd9
Based on this if Sunny weighs 40 pounds, he should be getting 1257 calories... so really not that far off from what you were giving him... but, using a food scale will help to make sure you are actually giving him what you think you are giving him.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

momo_ said:


> Greetings from an awake at 2am Momo. You know why.
> 
> Since the sample is being sent away to a lab, it should be accurate, right? I don't think I afford to spent $200 over and over before we get a positive...


I hope so. But - an option is to treat for giardia even if it's negative. (Or coccidia, whichever is more prominent where you are. Your vet should know). Getting positives is really hard. But it might be worth spending the money on the treatment. 

Have you tried ground beef as opposed to chicken? Since you're wondering if chicken is causing a reaction?

Make sure there is no chicken in your treats - or just eliminate all treats right now. Only way to figure out if it's the chicken is to eliminate it.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Sweet Girl said:


> I hope so. But - an option is to treat for giardia even if it's negative. (Or coccidia, whichever is more prominent where you are. Your vet should know). Getting positives is really hard. But it might be worth spending the money on the treatment.
> 
> Have you tried ground beef as opposed to chicken? Since you're wondering if chicken is causing a reaction?
> 
> Make sure there is no chicken in your treats - or just eliminate all treats right now. Only way to figure out if it's the chicken is to eliminate it.


Hopefully the results will be in tomorrow! He's been treated for giardia before for 5 days even when the results came back negative. 
I'll ask the vet about medication, possibly before an allergy test or beginning hypoallergenic food. 

I haven't tried ground beef yet, still feeding chicken. I've been feeding chicken since he was 8 weeks old and he's never had diarrhea from it. We've done the chicken and rice diet many times and, assuming he hasn't eaten bark or other things, his poops firm up just fine! He was getting a small amount of chicken as an extra with his kibble even when he was fine for weeks/months. I know that chicken is not causing the diarrhea, but it could be a minor intolerance that causes itchiness only, if that's possible? 

And aside from training school this week, he has not been getting anything other than chicken, rice and kibble for the past 2 weeks.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

*POOP UPDATE * 
No improvement. 

*VET UPDATE* 
Just gave them a call and the results showed one thing was positive (forgot what it's called, but not giardia or coccidia) which should have been cleared with the first round of medication. She'll explain when I pop in later today. They're going to give him a long course of antibiotics, as Sweet Girl suggested.
Fingers crossed this is the issue and not a food allergy!!!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

*UPDATE*
Sunny tested positive for "Clostridial Enterotoxicosis, diarrhea related to an intestinal toxin produce by a bacteria, _clostridium perfringens_".

Also received a low range positive for perfringens CPEA. I don't know what the difference is, but the lab notes say that this is unlikely to be contributing to the diarrhea.

The vet gave me a handout of whatever that is, and the symptoms sound about right. She's given us AMOXYCLAV - amoxycillin 250mg, antibiotics for 3 weeks. 

Looking forward to seeing some good poops in the next few days. How exciting!


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Great news


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

This may seem weird to say, but I am SO happy they found something!!! What I mean, of course, is that I wish Sunny wasn't sick. But he is, and I am just so glad they have finally gotten a positive and can treat him with the right meds. And three weeks of meds sounds good. You'll probably start to see improvement in a few days - but definitely give the entire course!!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm with everyone else. Great that they figured out what was going on, so now Sunny can get better. Also, must be nice knowing its nothing you did, and that Sunny for the time being is simply sick. But, you were on top it and made sure that he got the help he needed. Go momo! Here's hoping he makes a turn for the better now ASAP! And thanks for keeping us informed. I am sure many people will learn from your experience!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

How is Sunny doing now?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> How is Sunny doing now?


Hey guys! 
I can't say for sure because once we started the antibiotics, we also went back to chicken and rice only, no kibble. His poops have been perfect! Small and solid. He was going only once a day, but after adding some bran to his meals (as recommended by the vet), he's been going 3 times a day. 

We're waiting for Taste of the Wild to arrive in the mail in 2-3 days. We'll see how he goes with some of it added to his food. I'm a little concerned though. Been reading about recent bad batches of TOTW causing diarrhea and vomiting. We certainly don't want that again. 

I'm happy he appears to be on the mend though!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

That is great that Sunny seems to be on the mend!! What a relief!! 
I'd hate to say it since you already have a bag of food on the way, but, I'm not sure I would have gone with Diamond brand food, based not the number of recalls they have had on their foods due to salmonella poisoning in the past decade. But, there are a lot of people who would disagree with me. Nutrition wise I believe it to be a good dog food. I hope Diamond does not have any more problems in the future with their products, and that Sunny thrives on his new food. Keep us posted


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> That is great that Sunny seems to be on the mend!! What a relief!!
> I'd hate to say it since you already have a bag of food on the way, but, I'm not sure I would have gone with Diamond brand food, based not the number of recalls they have had on their foods due to salmonella poisoning in the past decade. But, there are a lot of people who would disagree with me. Nutrition wise I believe it to be a good dog food. I hope Diamond does not have any more problems in the future with their products, and that Sunny thrives on his new food. Keep us posted


I knew about the Diamond recalls, but didn't realise TOTW was effected. I read that TOTW did a voluntarily recall in 2012, but now I'm hearing about bad batches March THIS YEAR. :uhoh: 

I'm really really hoping this food works for him because I would hate to try another one. If I do, it's either attempt Pro Plan again, or Wellness Core, or give an Australian brand a go - Ivory Coat. 

Anyway... it should arrive tomorrow. Been refreshing the tracking page every hour and there's been no activity. :doh:


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Great news Momo...


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Just wanted to share this happy snap of Sunny yesterday. Do you like the "happy poo" frame? 

And look what arrived in the mail!!! We're very excited to try TOTW! :bowl::bowl::bowl:


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Brilliant, lets hop everything works out


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Love the happy poop frame! And Sunny is looking great! Such a sweet boy in his smile picture  Hope he likes his new food!!


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

I really hope this works out well for you Momo. You have had a really rough time.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

How's he doing a few days into the meds? Things seem to be clearing up?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

It really seemed like the issue was related to food since every time we reverted back to chicken and rice, it cleared up. But with the results and now almost a week of medication, no diarrhea! It appears that the bacteria was the issue. I feel terrible for not taking in earlier.  An in-house fecal float wouldn't have picked it up, so I'm glad the vet suggested a proper test. I can't say he's 100% until we get solid poops long after medication stops, but for now we're happy and it looks like he's starting put on some weight. 
We're on day 2 of TOTW, VERY slow transition, so far so good. 

Thank you so much everyone! 

Harleysmum, we're both very grateful to be getting some uninterrupted sleep. I've been leaving his crate door open for the past 2 weeks, giving him the choice to either stay in there or sleep anywhere in the house downstairs. He alternates each night, but doesn't seem to ask to go out in the middle of the night which is good for when he moves upstairs soon. 
He also sleeps in longer with the crate door open, wakes up at around 7-7:40am instead of 6-6:30am. Yay!!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Sounding promising!!!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

So glad to hear he is getting better. You will probably see him become a happier puppy, too.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

He has a permanent sulk face, actually! 

Poop update: 3 days on TOTW. On chicken and rice, his poops were very small, dark and very hard. They were hard enough to be "kickable". 
Yesterday, they were still hard and breakable, but not solid enough to kick. 
Today's poop wasn't kickable, and couldn't break, I'd say it was mouldable in the hands. It was still solid enough to pick up without leaving a trace on the ground though, so I'm not concerned yet, but I'll make sure not to add more of the kibble tomorrow. We're at 1/4 cups added to each meal.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> He has a permanent sulk face, actually!
> 
> Poop update: 3 days on TOTW. On chicken and rice, his poops were very small, dark and very hard. They were hard enough to be "kickable".
> Yesterday, they were still hard and breakable, but not solid enough to kick.
> Today's poop wasn't kickable, and couldn't break, I'd say it was mouldable in the hands. It was still solid enough to pick up without leaving a trace on the ground though, so I'm not concerned yet, but I'll make sure not to add more of the kibble tomorrow. We're at 1/4 cups added to each meal.


Yup, I spend entirely way to much time thinking about stuff like this. Well, this is softer. Is it too soft? Should I add pumpkin? Looking forward to days where Rundle's stomach is a little more solid, and a little less liquid... LOL


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Yup, I spend entirely way to much time thinking about stuff like this. Well, this is softer. Is it too soft? Should I add pumpkin? Looking forward to days where Rundle's stomach is a little more solid, and a little less liquid... LOL


I didn't realise how ridiculous I sounded, grading poops based on their "kickability". No joke I was bending down squinting at the poop for a good 15 seconds... at the dog park... with people around... It's important ok! 
How's Rundle going now? Her poops are kickable right? :


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

momo_ said:


> I didn't realise how ridiculous I sounded, grading poops based on their "kickability". No joke I was bending down squinting at the poop for a good 15 seconds... at the dog park... with people around... It's important ok!
> How's Rundle going now? Her poops are kickable right? :


That is so awesome! I love your inspecting and not giving a "poop" (pun intended) about what people think about it. 
Rundle actually had another episode of diarrhea recently. We have no idea what triggered it, except that she may have picked up something off the ground we didn't see. This time no messing around. We immediately got her back on the GI tract food she was on before. Within 3 days it cleared up. Then we slowly transitioned her back on her regular food. The GI food definitely gave her kickable poops. So, it was a bit confusing as we were transitioning her back when her stool then seemed a bit softer, more mouldable as you described previously... but, after giving it some thought... I don't think poops are supposed to come out petrified-like. So, we are not going to add pumpkin, and will be satisfied with formed, soft poops that maybe leave a little brown spec on the ground for the sniffing... LOL... yup we are crazy!


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

While on the subject of poop. What would cause a firm stool that is yellowish pale.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Cpc1972 said:


> While on the subject of poop. What would cause a firm stool that is yellowish pale.


Looks like there might be some good info on yellowish poop here? 
Topic: All about POOP! -


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

This one too. 
The Scoop on Poop | The Bark


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

3Pebs3 said:


> This one too.
> The Scoop on Poop | The Bark


Thanks. We are thinking it is just from the chicken formula switch we did a while back. I guess if it doesnt change color when we switch back to the lamb next month we should ask the vet. Does anyone know if chicken can cause lighter stools.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Cpc1972 said:


> Thanks. We are thinking it is just from the chicken formula switch we did a while back. I guess if it doesnt change color when we switch back to the lamb next month we should ask the vet. Does anyone know if chicken can cause lighter stools.


Sorry I went back to your original post where I remembered you talking about this and accidentally replied there instead.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

3Pebs3 said:


> Sorry I went back to your original post where I remembered you talking about this and accidentally replied there instead.



Thanks. My mom has been thinking about changing brands. She is really dead set against the purina pro plan. I think its the corn and fillers. She just dont know what kind to switch to. We will probably try the lamb again. We only switched to see if it kept her from eating her poop. She thinks the color changed at that time. Chloe isnt sick and it isnt loose anymore.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Chicken is a "white" meat, so lighter stools. Stool will also be lighter if they have been eating bones because bones are white too!


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Harleysmum said:


> Chicken is a "white" meat, so lighter stools. Stool will also be lighter if they have been eating bones because bones are white too!


No bones. She has a rawhide but hasnt chewed any pieces off of it. I dont even know if it iis really even yellow. Its just way lighter then what you would think as normal i guess.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm joining this poop party!!!!!

I am so glad to hear that Sunny tested positive for bacteria. It is nice to know there is a definite cause that is easy to clear up!

How is he doing?

I switched Kevin to a chicken-based food waaaay too fast and now we are having many poop problems. Poor guy! Back to his original food! I am not sure if it's the chicken (he was on salmon) or just that I changed too fast. I think it's the chicken, though . . .


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Anele said:


> I'm joining this poop party!!!!!
> 
> I am so glad to hear that Sunny tested positive for bacteria. It is nice to know there is a definite cause that is easy to clear up!
> 
> ...


The BEST poop party! 

Yes I'm glad too. We've been getting great poops! He seems to be doing just fine. Tomorrow the Golden Retriever Club of Queensland is holding a fun day just for goldens. How exciting! 

What food did you switch to Anele? Still Pro Plan? 

As for lighter poops, I'm not sure about it but I'm definitely gonna check out Pebs' poop links. My favourite topic. 

Sunny gets fed lots of boiled chicken and his poops are dark, but maybe it's different for chicken kibble? 

Day 4 of TOTW transition and things are looking good so far. Might increase it to 1/3 cup!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

How's everyone's poops been? Over the past couple of days Rundle's have been hit or miss between firm and mush. We read that she may need more fibre and probiotics in her diet. So we are back to adding pumpkin to every meal and yogurt in the morning. So far so good.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> How's everyone's poops been? Over the past couple of days Rundle's have been hit or miss between firm and mush. We read that she may need more fibre and probiotics in her diet. So we are back to adding pumpkin to every meal and yogurt in the morning. So far so good.


Good thing Rundle's will improve with something as simple as pumpkin  

I am terrified of saying anything positive about Sunny. I recently sent a colleague an email about him, how he's progressive and what not, and mentioned him not having accidents for 2.5 months. 2 days later, he shits upstairs while I was washing my face. I was mortified. 

His poops have been perfect since the meds (please don't jinx it please don't jinx it). It's been a week on TOTW and I'm just starting to give 3/4, hoping to reach a full cup in a few days. He might not even need to eat 1 cup x3 but because of the low calories and his weight right now, I will try to feed a bit more as long as his poops stay firm. 
With a lower TOTW ratio to chicken and rice, he would only go once or twice a day with TINY, dark poops. Now with more TOTW, he has started to go 4-5 times per day, and some poops are pretty massive. I've been reading that TOTW should produce small poops and less frequent. It's not really a concern, but it's odd.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Large poops could mean he is not absorbing all of the nutrients from his food yet. But, with the switch it might take a little time to adjust. 

Test day #2 Rundle did not have any soft poops after introducing pumpkin and yogurt and pumpkin with lunch and dinner. I believe our problem is solved. Yay! Hopefully poops are good for awhile now!


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I dun goof'd. 

So after about A MONTH of solid poops (during medication period too), with some softish but formed ones (I won't be too picky), Sunny's got diarrhea again. I got a bit poo-happy and started giving him fish oil AND coconut oil. Two days into it, he was fine. Third day, poops were too soft for my liking, so I didn't give him any at all today. The 1st poop today was soft but formed-ish, 2nd and 3rd were like cow patties with outlines, and 4th was full-blown pudding. :doh: 
I'm really hoping it's just from the oils. I was giving one 1000mg fish oil per day, and about 2-3 teaspoons of coconut oil per day. Now that I've done research, I think I'm supposed to start with 1/2 teaspoon. 
It should clear up in 24 hours, I hope, but it does mean I might need to let him sleep outside of the crate in case he needs to go throughout the night. Shame, because he was recently just "recrate-trained". 

Anyway, there's Sunny's diarrhea adventures sequel. Hope it ends quickly.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Why do you keep feeding him new food. Stick with what works haha


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Would the purported benefits of these oils already be matched with something that is in his kibble anyway?


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

A lot of people feed fish and/or coconut oil, it's recommended for overall improvement in skin and coat. He definitely needs some help with that. I'd hate to have to only feed kibble, chicken and rice and that's it for his diet, no treats, no fruit, no additional supplements etc. :/ He was getting other treats as well without problems until I introduced the oils, though if it were the oils, I would expect the effects to show on the same day or the following day, but it took 3 days. Hmm

For now I've stopped feeding it of course, and probably won't try to introduce it again for a while. When I do, I'll make sure it's a very slow transition.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

If you're going to do that. Then try sardines in oil


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> If you're going to do that. Then try sardines in oil


Sunny's breeder also recommended sardines, but didn't specify sardines in oil. I will give it a go one day. Thank you! Do you just get the canned ones at Woolies? I've never bought them before. Never tried them myself. :yuck:


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Black Hawk has these types of things included in the ingredients so you don't have to supplement. 

We have a multibillion dollar industry built on vitamin and mineral supplements for humans that just aren't needed unless you have a real medical reason to have them. I'm sure that if you are feeding a well rounded super premium food to sunny that the same applies.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

momo_ said:


> Sunny's breeder also recommended sardines, but didn't specify sardines in oil. I will give it a go one day. Thank you! Do you just get the canned ones at Woolies? I've never bought them before. Never tried them myself. :yuck:


Yeah just canned sardines in oil (not saltwater or brine) it'll give him omega 3 and enough oil to make his coat look...

*finger snap* Fab-ul-ous *hair flip*


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

The diarrhea lasted about 2 days. It must've been the oils. He's all good now!

Sometimes his poops are solid and don't mush went picked up, sometimes they're soft but formed, still able to pick up without leaving a mess on the grass, and sometimes formed, but so soft it mushes in the hand. It's not diarrhea at all, but should I be concerned about how soft it is, or am I totally crazy and overanalysing poo too much? 

My rule of thumb at the moment is, if I can leave it for a few hours and it can harden enough to pick up without leaving a mess, it's okay. Heh


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Yup I think you're over it. Congrats 

Bens poo does the same things. 

Also don't freak out if he gets the runs from time to time. Ben does every couple of months 

Now go enjoy him. 

Need more pictures


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

Marcus said:


> Yup I think you're over it. Congrats
> 
> Bens poo does the same things.
> 
> ...


I enjoy every moment with him! Just poo-obsessed.  
Diarrhea every couple of months is a great result! I'm lucky to go a week without it. 
I organised a beach play date tomorrow, there will be about 10-15 fellow golden friends. Will definitely post pictures! 

Here he modelling his new bandana. He's looking much better now that he's put on some weight 

Edit: I just realised I have you on FB so you've already seen these, oops


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## SurlyMoose (Dec 28, 2014)

Handsome boy!


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Yup he's definitely looking healthier and more handsome now! Glad the poops are all good too! Rundle accidentally swallowed a large hunk of her himalayan chew when she was really excited after I came home from the office one day. :doh: She had a couple of days of runny poops, but seems to be back to normal now. I am hoping her stomach becomes more robust as she gets older.


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