# Severe inconsistency from judges



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

kdowningxc said:


> Sorry for my complaints, but I'm loosing my young hopeful attitude about the sport.



I was going to answer in a totally different way till I read this final sentence. I will assume your assessment of the dogs is accurate and not sour grapes. 
Welcome to the world of showing dogs. In my opinion it is a microcosm of life as a whole. Things are not always fair. People do not always do things for the right reasons. Politics play more of a role than they should. 
I think your observations about a low entry are spot on. Likely the judge's reputation is well known enough to cause others to go elsewhere with their money. I suggest you keep a list of judges that you WITNESS doing this and then not enter under them again. But I would not recommend taking this action unless you see it for yourself as there are as many poor sports showing dogs, maybe more, as there are bad judges.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

IMO, if you think Canada is rigged, have you tried an AKC show?? Mine were always successful in Canada... an AKC CH is much harder to attain.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. Would love to see pictures of your boy! I used to show GSD's in the breed ring, and the politics was the main reason why I got out of it and went into the performance events.

I'm with Hank. Keep a journal of the judges who like your dogs type and those who don't. Then at least you'll have a reference for future shows. May save you $$ in entry fees and travel expenses.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I totally agree with AmbikaGR's posting. There is a lot of interpretation and subjectivity even with the judges who do not dabble in politics.

I do not show in conformation since it just seems, I don't know if political is the right word but you do need to be very careful on who you show under.

Keeping a log of the judges who like your dog's style and do not like your dog's style can save a lot of money  



AmbikaGR said:


> I was going to answer in a totally different way till I read this final sentence. I will assume your assessment of the dogs is accurate and not sour grapes.
> Welcome to the world of showing dogs. In my opinion it is a microcosm of life as a whole. Things are not always fair. People do not always do things for the right reasons. Politics play more of a role than they should.
> I think your observations about a low entry are spot on. Likely the judge's reputation is well known enough to cause others to go elsewhere with their money. I suggest you keep a list of judges that you WITNESS doing this and then not enter under them again. But I would not recommend taking this action unless you see it for yourself as there are as many poor sports showing dogs, maybe more, as there are bad judges.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

kdowningxc said:


> Hello,
> I'm new to this forum, *also new to showing*.


It takes some time to learn perspective and also to learn about dogs. My best advice is to chill out and get used to it. You are going to see worse. Your dog finished with some nice wins, be happy about that. Give AKC a try if CKC is not enough drama for you


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> I was going to answer in a totally different way till I read this final sentence. I will assume your assessment of the dogs is accurate and not sour grapes.
> Welcome to the world of showing dogs. In my opinion it is a microcosm of life as a whole. Things are not always fair. People do not always do things for the right reasons. Politics play more of a role than they should.
> I think your observations about a low entry are spot on. Likely the judge's reputation is well known enough to cause others to go elsewhere with their money. I suggest you keep a list of judges that you WITNESS doing this and then not enter under them again. But I would not recommend taking this action unless you see it for yourself as there are as many poor sports showing dogs, maybe more, as there are bad judges.


AmbikaGR I could not have said it better!! 

I have been showing a very very nice girl. Some background at 10 mos she took her first points and at 13 months her first group placement. She only needs 2 points to finish at 15 month old. in AKC in the pacific NW very very competitive here. 

This very same thing happened to me two weekend in a row I went to a show not knowing anything about the judges as my judging list I have just started. You do learn fast how to pick out "handler judges". 

Anyway this is what happened BTY we needed 3 points at that time, now only 2 whoop whoop Go Mia!!

The first show my bitch takes 1st in a very large open bitch class so we think we have it in the bag NOP!! The two points went to a puppy on a very well known handler (one that rolled). My bitch did not ever get RWB it went to another well known handler. Mia Really really deserved those two points she out moved and out showed both of them. I do not always think she deserves them as sometimes she can plod around the ring. 

The next weekend on Saturday she takes WB for one point. Once again a very large open class she showed beautify in open class and plodded in breed ring.

On Sunday she takes a second to the big name handler with a bitch that my girl has won over countless times. She only has 1 point at two years old, witch she took the weekend before as that was the first time with this new handler.

In the WB ring nothing but big name handlers, the class was so inconsistent in look and type. It was a no brainer that he was looking at the person at the end of the lead and not the dog. If he had been looking at the dogs he might have noticed that one was a lab lol!! Just kidding lol but one of the bitches was so out of coat the she really looked like a lab. 

I would say that there are more judges out there really looking for a really nice dog then there are handler judges. Keep going it is fun but a list is important so that you do not support them and don't waist your money on them.

Please keep us posted on how you do it is aways fun to read about other that are out there too,


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Perhaps I can come in from a judges side- not from the US or Canada but the other side of the pond. It is very easy to judge from the ringside and far harder when you are in the centre of the ring. The judge is the only person who puts their hands on the dog looks at the mouth and makes the decision.We would never all agree with places and that is what makes dog shows fun. I see all too often some one who does a little winning and then bad mouths every judge that does not put their dog up. I am sure if you asked that judge they could tell exactly why they put one dog over another, I certainly could. Annef


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Following on from the previous post I was challenged about a decision I made when judging abroad. 'Why did my dog not get best working' I was asked. I replied 'because he was slightly lame' (I had not judged him in the class) Well she said 'which leg', 'left fore' I replied She looked at me for a long time and then said' I didn't think you would notice that'!!!!!!!

My advice would be learn about the breed and its history, be able to fault your own dog as the perfect dog has not yet been born and enjoy the shows win or lose. I show under most judges once but sometimes only once!! Annef


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

annef said:


> Perhaps I can come in from a judges side- not from the US or Canada but the other side of the pond. It is very easy to judge from the ringside and far harder when you are in the centre of the ring. The judge is the only person who puts their hands on the dog looks at the mouth and makes the decision.We would never all agree with places and that is what makes dog shows fun. I see all too often some one who does a little winning and then bad mouths every judge that does not put their dog up. I am sure if you asked that judge they could tell exactly why they put one dog over another, I certainly could. Annef


Every point bears repeating!!!!! Thanks Anne.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think it takes forever to learn what judges not to show a particular style of dog to as a beginner. I only have about thirty judges on my pro and con list, and those took endless research and some rough/magical first hand experiences too.

It feels okay to lose when you look around and admire the entry as a group, and respect the dog who places over yours; it definitely feels terrible when you just don't get it, and struggle to understand. 

Luckily, these things work in our favor as well. There is always that day you think another dog is gorgeous, showing great, and going to win right up until the judge nods at you! That happens too.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Level bites are not a fault in a Borzoi, but I've seen my stunning, fully coated, sound moving Russian import (often the only sound dog in the entire entry) lose just because at age 7+ his bite has gone level (he's not finished yet because he was basically not shown for the first six years of his life). I've seen the judges make faces at his bite and put up a weedy, coatless dog with terrible movement and missing teeth. At another show, he won a four point major over two famous handlers. No fewer than three judges have also told me he was fat, IMO because they'd never seen a real Borzoi from Russia, with a body, chest, and spring of ribs... he makes many American dogs look like slab sided angel fish. He's certainly not overweight. Dog shows are a gamble... and definitely not my favorite activity by any means. I go along with it to please the dogs' co-owner, and I enjoy winning, but I'd rather be in the field or on the track any day.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

annef said:


> I am sure if you asked that judge they could tell exactly why they put one dog over another, I certainly could. Annef


While I am sure you could and I am not disagreeing with what you said there are a whole lot of very political judges. The best dog/bitch is not always the one that wins. 

I had an opportunity recently to as a judge that question. It was a specialty show. I was in the 12-15 puppy sweeps. There were 5 puppies in the class. The same puppies that I have been showing with consistently. 

My puppy was dumped she was the only one who did not place.

She has never been dumped before or after for that matter, in fact has beaten every one of those puppy consistently for the last 6 months in all breed shows. She has taken several best puppy in breed, best in sweeps, best of breed from the classes, and group placements form the classes. 

So I had to ask "What Was It about this puppy you did not like?"

Answer "she was inconsistent with the class" What does that mean??

My friend had video taped the show so I was able to look back to see if she pacing, rolling, etc. 

She looked beautiful, beautiful reach and drive, hit her free stack, clean coming and going, great attitude. There is nothing wrong with her bite. 

There was however one big difference in comparison to the other puppies. She did not have a gay tail and the rest did. There you have it her inconsistency. I thought gay tail was a fault?? 

I would like to say that in the regular classes 12-18 month with the same puppies that same day she won her class and went of to take RWB for that specialty.

I found out later that the judge that was doing sweeps was the stud owner for a couple of the puppies in the sweeps class. 

I have to say that I will not name the judge and I will not bad mouth her. I will just never show to her again.

The moral of my story is that judges like what they like and we have to respect that.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I would like to say that in the regular classes 12-18 month with the same puppies that same day she won her class and went of to take RWB for that specialty.
> 
> I found out later that the judge that was doing sweeps was the stud owner for a couple of the puppies in the sweeps class.
> 
> ...


Well gee, it would take about 3 minutes of research to discover who the judge was. 
If you show a dog for any length of time IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN. GET OVER IT. 
If I could recount every 12-18 class I ever got dumped in, I could write a book. It would be a really boring book.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be competitive or passionate about winning, but if you want to stay in this game you have to move on and put the dumped classes and such behind you. That is going to happen a lot more often than you winning.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

If there were only one interpretation of the breed standard and only one view on which faults/assets were more important than another when evaluating a dog, then the same dog would always win and it would be a very boring hobby. 

Jack has been showing consistently and has won over dogs who are now finished, won over dogs who have breed wins from the classes, won over dogs with group placements and won over dogs who had been put up for 5 point majors....it happens and its the nature of dog shows. I don't think it makes my dog "better" than another dog because he's beaten them. I think my dog is awesome (which I should) but I don't think he's perfect. And I know there are judges who prefer his style of golden and some that prefer others, so I make every effort to show him to those judges who *should* like him. I think research on judges is very important, especially to newbies in the show world, like me. 

If a judge dumps my dog and there's no extenuating circumstance (i.e. acted up in the ring, illness, etc) I won't show him to that judge again. (Which happened recently in an entry of 3 dogs. Needless to say that judge is on my "do not show" list.  ) And if my dog doesn't win it's because the judge didn't like my dog the most that day - and it can be for any reason under the sun since I'm paying for their subjective opinion.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I was at a show where a person had flown in, showed only 2 days out of three, was reserve the first and took the major the second, and then left. 

I was at another show where a local person was Winners all three days.

Politics?

No. It was me. I flew in to Washington, DC. Gini and Larry and my son had driven in 3 days earlier, stayed with their son and his family, and took my son sightseeing in DC. I had to work so flew in later. I showed to 2 judges I'd NEVER shown to. We were mainly there because of Gini's family and the opportunity for my son to see DC. We didn't show the 3rd day because it was over 100 degrees.

The other show was here in TC. Tommy was WD all 3 days. He deserved it. It was NOT because I am a member of the club and bought the judges. (As someone said.) I'm NOT a member of the club, and have never shown a Golden to 2 of the 3 judges and was actually surprised that the 3rd put Tommy up. I show at the GTKC shows becuase they are in my back yard.

I get pretty tired of hearing all the griping about "politics" and "only handlers win", etc etc etc. It is your opinion that your dog should not be beat on any given day, but the reality is that you paid for the judge to give his/hers and s/he may not agree. It's the way the cookie crumbles. You win some, you lose more. And frankly, winning with puppies is not the norm, and should not be expected, nor, IMO should they be pushed.



*I will add that leaving on the third day at the shows where it was so hot was a no brainer for me. I will not risk the well being of my dogs. And my dog not being there didn't break a major.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Jack has been showing consistently and has won over dogs who are now finished, won over dogs who have breed wins from the classes, won over dogs with group placements and won over dogs who had been put up for 5 point majors....it happens and its the nature of dog shows. I don't think it makes my dog "better" than another dog because he's beaten them.


Hey, Fisher has beaten, in the classes, an eventual #1 golden in the country (Cutter). 
Blade beat the eventual #1 golden and for a time I believe, #1 sporting dog in the country (Cody).
It really doesn't mean anything but it is fun to say


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Hey, Fisher has beaten, in the classes, an eventual #1 golden in the country (Cutter).
> Blade beat the eventual #1 golden and for a time I believe, #1 sporting dog in the country (Cody).
> It really doesn't mean anything but it is fun to say


Exactly! (I would think it's pretty neat too though )


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Unless you haver personally put your hands on and examined every dog in the ring, you cannot possibly begin to know what the judge knows.
I've judged Sweeps at Specialties and put up dogs that I've seen exhibited befored and not cared for on that day. Of course I had no idea until later when I was looking at the catalogue. I surprised myself.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

It just occurred to me that his thread is more about inconsistency in a particular dog's show results, versus an inconsistency in judging. In my short time in this hobby I've noticed that _most _judges (not all), whether I agree with their opinion or not, are fairly consistent in their judging. They like what they like!

PG, that's interesting that you put up dogs you had not cared for before. That certainly tells me that I shouldn't form an opinion about a dog (or criticize a judge's selection) until I've had my hands on them.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just a thought, but what might look like a gay tail might be a well set tail carried high. That's where a judge with their hands on the dog can tell the difference.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> It just occurred to me that his thread is more about inconsistency in a particular dog's show results, versus an inconsistency in judging. In my short time in this hobby I've noticed that _most _judges (not all), whether I agree with their opinion or not, are fairly consistent in their judging. They like what they like!
> 
> PG, that's interesting that you put up dogs you had not cared for before. That certainly tells me that I shouldn't form an opinion about a dog (or criticize a judge's selection) until I've had my hands on them.


 
Inconsistency in judging is when a judge puts up entirely different styles of dogs in a given entry. For example, first place goes to a large, longish backed red dog, with sparse coat. Second place to a smaller,short backed light coloredd dog with a fluffy coat. Third place is a moderate, medium gold dog, and fourth place to a smallish dark gold dog with a very wavy coat. (This is an extreme and hypothetical example, to illustrate inconsistency.) Consistency is when a judge selects 4 dogs, all of similar style - for example I was in a ring where 2 littermates and a third half sibling were in 1st, 2nd and 4th. (no, the judge did NOT know them). They were nearly identical dogs. The 3rd place dog was of a very similar style.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

However, I have to say my bugaboo is "rolly toplines."


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> However, I have to say my bugaboo is "rolly toplines." Part of the reason is that my genetics produce straight toplines.


 
Straight toplines can still roll, especially when puppies...
Goldens (and other sporting dogs that swim) are going to have a bit of a "fat pad" on the topline - it is protective, and bouyant. It will have a tendency to roll a bit while the dog is still young, or if a dog is truly overweight and/or not in condition.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Inconsistency in judging is when a judge puts up entirely different styles of dogs in a given entry. For example, first place goes to a large, longish backed red dog, with sparse coat. Second place to a smaller,short backed light coloredd dog with a fluffy coat. Third place is a moderate, medium gold dog, and fourth place to a smallish dark gold dog with a very wavy coat. (This is an extreme and hypothetical example, to illustrate inconsistency.) Consistency is when a judge selects 4 dogs, all of similar style - for example I was in a ring where 2 littermates and a third half sibling were in 1st, 2nd and 4th. (no, the judge did NOT know them). They were nearly identical dogs. The 3rd place dog was of a very similar style.


Right. It just seems to me that the OP's gripe was that a dog he felt was not a good representative of the breed beat his/her dog. And there was another post about a dog getting dumped one day when the dog had done well previous days. against the same group of dogs. There wasn't any mention of inconsistency with the individual judges (as the title of the thread would suggest), but an inconsistency in the placement of a particular dog over several days of showing. It just seems to me that one either plays the game and accepts that will happen, or don't show dogs.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

To sort of clarify, what I mean by inconsistancy is that judges who follow the standard and judges who do not. I am disappointed that dogs who clearly and obviously defy the standard, very emphasized parts of the standard, win... I understand there are interpretations of the standard and I totally agree, not the "same" interpretation should be taken....but there are fundamentals about a golden retriever that should still be there, and when they aren't the dog shouldn't win. As some people have posted about learning about the standard, I have. I have it almost memorized word for word and I have studied the illustrated explanation of the standard (I think the GRCC put out). I am young, but have been raised with goldens and studying them my whole life. I can certainly point out every flaw in my boy that I would see in other dogs, and I know when another dog is better as far as my understanding of the standard. The first golden to beat us, I knew had a better topline, his head was not as good as my boy's head, the special was bigger (which could have gone either way, based on the judge.) But I wasn't upset about loosing, because I totally agreed that dog had a lot of merit and really it could have gone either way between my boy and him. Also, I read someone say, it's a strange/ good feeling to beat a dog that you think might have more merit than yours and I agree, thats how I felt the first show I went to. I was happy to get WD and then to get group 1 was amazing. But I can see how maybe some of those handlers might think my dog didn't have more merit than theirs. So it goes both ways. I'm not about to quit over this loss, but I can see how my expectations were set to high. Judges are only human. I sort of have been thinking, how can judges really know all the breeds they have to know. I have been studying GR's for like 15 years and I have a lot to learn, how can they possibly understand the breed as much as the people who study one breed their whole life? It makes me feel like in an ideal world, judges would only judge one breed, I know that can't happen but in my dreams. Otherwise, I have had a lot of fun showing, I'm sure it will be more fun when I go somewhere that they speak English so I can talk to the other people at the show. But everyone at the show as far I understood  was really nice to us. Some had mentioned how much harder it is in the AKC, and I know that! It is exactly the reason I went to the CKC first. But next summer I will be attempting the AKC rings and before then I want to accumulate more experience in the ring (thus attending more CKC shows.) Thank you for all the advise. I know I sound really uptight and nit picky, but trust me I would be ecstatic to see a beautiful golden beat my boy, because then I would feel good about our breed and what is winning in the ring. I was mostly upset about seeing a poor example of our breed get a CH. But I'm sure poor examples of the breed do not get CH's in the AKC. But anyways, I've rambled on long enough, I'll insert a picture of my boy, if I can figure it out. I'm not going to post the show picture, as I don't know what the etiquette is when it comes to judges being in the photo and such, but ehh, if you guys think its ok, I'll post it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow, your dog is beautiful!


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

He is truly my best friend. He has the most wonderful temperament. I can go on for days about how much he gives to me everyday, but I know everyone here knows the love of a wonderful golden, so I will leave it at that.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just another thought... I have 2 half sisters, two years apart. Both are Am Ch sired. At one time they were both showing in AKC shows in conformation against each other. Both are to "standard" but very different in type. In fact, if a judge liked one, they didn't like the other. And at the time, it made sense to me since they were both very different. However, at one show (where the older girl ultimately went BOB over Specials), the judge also really liked my younger girl(she actually told me she had a hard time picking between the two)... and these were 2 bitches very dissimilar in type. Both easily finished their CKC championships, but at different times.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

While a particular dog might not be of the style that I like, I can appreciate it if it is a "good one". I judged a Sweeps where many of the dogs were quite "English" in style (not necessarily my preference) but I found several that I admired very much - beautifully made and excellent moving dogs with great foot timing. They were better dogs than they few that were entered that were the style that I like. I put them up.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

yes, and to add to both of these posts. I want to say that the other bitch at the show, was actually of great merit. The only thing is that her head was quite under developed which I know almost always keeps the dog out of the BOB ring. She had wonderful movement and was of the English type. Although I didn't put my hands on her and have no idea other than her head the bitch the rolled beat her every time. But when I first saw her, I thought she was serious competition. She was only a pup I believe, 12-18, so who knows she might develop a good head in time. I have owned a Hungarian bred dog and I know his head didn't fill out till he was 3-4 years. Maybe that is common for more European bred Goldens. But I know there are types to judges. I will follow the advice of keeping a list of well-schooled retriever judges. I did give an attempt before I signed up for this show to learn about the type these judges were, but I couldn't really find enough evidence to make a good judgement either way. I checked canuckdogs and looked at previous assignments, but it only shows which golden won BOB, if the golden also placed in the group, so that makes it difficult. As infodog gives a lot more detail as to who was entered and class placements and everything. Very convenient.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

kdowningxc said:


> He is truly my best friend. He has the most wonderful temperament. I can go on for days about how much he gives to me everyday...


Now that's the good stuff 
p.s. Gorgeous boy!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

kdowningxc said:


> To sort of clarify, what I mean by inconsistancy is that judges who follow the standard and judges who do not. I am disappointed that dogs who clearly and obviously defy the standard,* very emphasized parts of the standard*, win... I understand there are interpretations of the standard and I totally agree, not the "same" interpretation should be taken....*but there are fundamentals about a golden retriever that should still be there, and when they aren't the dog shouldn't win.*


This is a very valid and important point, and to me, also the most frustrating aspect of conformation shows. I am probably looking at it from a different angle though. 
You know that little saying at the beginning of the standard? "Primarily a hunting dog" and all that? Well how the heck do you judge that in the show ring? Anyone who hunts, trains or trials retrievers knows that it is the heart and head of the dog that makes or breaks him, much less so the body. However, to make it even worse, those conformational aspects that really and truly do hinder a dog in the field, are what most "show breeders" actively and passionately seek and select for! BONE and COAT. 
So it kills me -- I mean, really -- to see these heavily boned dogs with extraordinary coat, win. Even if these dogs had any inkling to pick up a bird and/or swim, it would be a huge physical hindrance to them. And it happens over and over and over. 

At the Pennsylvania specialties a few weeks ago, I had two cute conversations with two VERY well known and successful show breeders. Both very friendly gals. One held Fisher's leash as I dashed through the rain to my car and back, and when I returned asked me, "Is this all the coat he ever has?" To which I said, "Yep, it's never more or less, he never blows it, he never grows it, what you see is what you get." She laughed and replied, "You are a field person aren't you, you're honest!" We had a good laugh over that one.
A little while later the 2nd lady came up and complimented Slater having seen him in the ring, asked his pedigree, to which I was very flattered. He has much more coat than Fisher does and still she said, "Well I always loved Yogi but you just don't get any coat in that pedigree." My response was, "I don't WANT any more coat than this." She says to me, "Well you've gotta have more if you want to win in the ring." Truer words were never spoken! HAHAHAHA Like I don't know it. But seriously, is THIS what makes a GOLDEN RETRIEVER???!!!? These two very typey dogs with great talent in the field, and "not enough coat" is all the show scene has to offer them? Kill me now.

It is frustrating. And it will always be there in the breed ring. The best thing to do is make yourself determined to be the best handler and groomer with the best conditioned and trained dog in the ring, and let the chips fall where they may. You won't always win but you will accomplish a lot more than if you quit or spend your whole time complaining.

Your boy is very pretty, you'll have a lot of fun with him.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Just a thought, but what might look like a gay tail might be a well set tail carried high. That's where a judge with their hands on the dog can tell the difference.


No, I know what gay tail is. Gay tail is a tail that is held so high that it bend over the back. 

IMO we are seeing it in the ring more and more:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> No, I know what gay tail is. Gay tail is a tail that is held so high that it bend over the back.
> 
> IMO we are seeing it in the ring more and more:


Yeah but here's the thing. And I will preface by saying I have never owned a dog with a gay tail so I'm not trying to defend myself.
Gay tails are an OBVIOUS but MINOR fault. Any stupid judge (or exhibitor) can see a gay tail but really, it has very little impact on the dog as a working retriever, which is what we are judging in the ring, right?? It is a small matter of type. I hate to see a dog with a gay tail nailed in the ring for it when otherwise he is a quality specimen.
So while you could plainly SEE a fault on the dog(s), it does not mean they should be judged by that fault alone. "Free from faults" does NOT mean "quality." If means mediocrity. Clearly the judge felt that these other bitches had qualities which should be rewarded despite their faults. This is good judging.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

my boy is from yogi as well  (yogi is his grandsire) Thank you for the advice.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

kdowningxc said:


> my boy is from yogi as well  (yogi is his grandsire) Thank you for the advice.


Awesome  
Yogi really is extraordinary. I feel very fortunate to be "in the family."


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> This is a very valid and important point, and to me, also the most frustrating aspect of conformation shows. I am probably looking at it from a different angle though.
> You know that little saying at the beginning of the standard? "Primarily a hunting dog" and all that? Well how the heck do you judge that in the show ring? Anyone who hunts, trains or trials retrievers knows that it is the heart and head of the dog that makes or breaks him, much less so the body. However, to make it even worse, those conformational aspects that really and truly do hinder a dog in the field, are what most "show breeders" actively and passionately seek and select for! BONE and COAT.
> So it kills me -- I mean, really -- to see these heavily boned dogs with extraordinary coat, win. Even if these dogs had any inkling to pick up a bird and/or swim, it would be a huge physical hindrance to them. And it happens over and over and over.
> 
> ...


Great way to put this Anney! I completely agree. My handler told me to come pick up my girl because she was blowing coat like crazy and she needed to be in "TOP NOTCH" condition for Houston. I understand being in TOP condition for a 5 pt major....but is coat that big of a deal!! She has always had a full coat and I do not think she could ever go bald!  In the show ring, IMO, I am seeing less and less hunting titles. The last couple fo shows she has entered, she has been the only one with a JH title (male or female). But, I agree, it is what it is and will just have to work harder!


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