# Samson may have babies!!!



## goldyjlox (Jun 27, 2010)

We have always talked abour breeding Kody and keeping a puppy but we got him fixed and that was that. When we got Samson my husband really wanted to breed him, there is no breeding claus as Samson is not registered. A lady stopped her car today as they were walking and asked if we would be interested in breeding with her female, she is about the same age. I still have to talk to her myself and see where the pup was from and all that info. I dont know much about breeding, I am not sure what age the male and female have to be or anything, I guess I need to do some research. We would only do this once for a puppy and then fix Samson. Does anyone have any info they could send my way?? 

Samson is 21 weeks. old so I would think that it would be a long time until we could even do this but we could have playdates. Its find of exciting and scary all at once.


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## LauraBella (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't think that someone who "just stopped her car and asked about breeding" to a dog that she knows NOTHING about (who isn't actually registered, which means there is no confirmed trail of that dog's genetic information) is someone you want to consider breeding to.

I'm sure Samson is an amazing pet (and I know nothing about him), but this lady obviously doesn't know a lot about breeding and is probably trying to take advantage of the fact that you don't either.

Personally, I would run.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

If he is not registered, how do you know what is in his lines, what health problems might be there, and if he's related at all to the female? He's adorable but does he really have good genes? Does he have any relatives with hip, elbow, heart or eye problems? Are you going to get him tested for all of those or do anything else with him besides let him breed? Do you really want to be breeding an unregistered dog simply so you can have a pup, and is this person who wants to breed him going to be responsible for life for all the pups - meaning five years down the road if they all start having health problems due to poor breeding, is she going to take them in if the owners can't afford expensive vet bills? Is adding another litter of unregistered, unknown genetics with possibly untested parents puppies while so many dogs sit in shelters waiting for homes something you can justify?

Read up on 'looking for a reputable breeder' as well as the threads on Milo and his hips. I'm not trying to be mean and don't mean to sound harsh, but thousands of dogs are in shelters because someone wanted to have that 'just on litter' to get a pup for themselves without thinking. Of all the dogs I've owned, I've loved them but it's more to do with the breed than the dog themselves, the border collies are all similar in quirks as are the goldens, and it hasn't mattered that they are offspring of each other.

Responsible breeders spend a lot of time going over pedigrees, clearances and the history of the parents, grandparents and so on before choosing a possible sire, so the fact that some stranger wants to use your boy without that information points to her being very uneducated in how to be a responsible breeder herself. 

It's exciting of course to have your dog used for breeding, but only if it's done the right way.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I am sure other members will chime in on this! But, you do realize that the puppies would not be able to be registered either because your boy is not registered?

The earliest you should breed would be 2. At 2 years old, you would need to get his hip/elbows x-rayed and sent to OFA for rating. Then do cardiac and eye clearances. If your boy fails any of these testing, then she should not be bred.

Why does he not have papers? Did you lose them or did the breeder not have her dogs registered?

Not just your boy, but the female. 

Do you know your boy's pedigree?

Why do you want to breed? Is it just to have puppies?

I know he is still young, but does he fit the "standard" of what a golden retriever should be (when he matures)?

Do you plan on doing obedience/agility/therapy/field/show anything with your boy?

Why breed to that female? What are you trying to improve in the breed or your male to her female?

A lot goes into breeding. It is more than just my boy is 2 and is mature enough to bred.

I hope this helps in some way.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I agree with the other posters...and frankly: why do you want to breed him?I've been asked several times if Tess was available for breeding, because she is a very beautiful dog and has a terrific temperament. But no: I had her spayed, because I believe that breeding is something for people who know what they are doing, I really believe in breedings for the betterment of the breed, not just because you have a nice dog...and I am not that knowledgable...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Do a search on this forum on Back yard breeders....this will be you if you breed Samson.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

You need to do a ton of research. Breeding an unregistered dog with no history of clearances in the lines only brings more dogs into the world. What would you do with a dozen puppies, how would you feel if they end up at a shelter? Most reputable breeders study pedigrees and have a definitive reason for a planned breeding. There are generations of health testings, knowledge of the lines strengths and weaknesses, etc. There are plenty of dogs at shelters needing homes. Please don't add to it.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Oh dear lord....

Be prepared to get a TON of feedback on this thread. As others have already mentioned, by doing this, you are about to become a backyard breeder, which is what pretty much everyone on this forum urges puppy buyers to fully avoid when looking for a new puppy. Breeding is NOT something that should be done casually at all. Breeding just for the sake of wanting puppies is also not something that should be done. First and foremost, intentionally breeding a dog that is not even registered is a giant no-no. Additionally, I am assuming that your dog has not had any of the necessary health clearances: hips, elbows, CERF, and cardiac. Since your dog is not even registered, you won't be able to submit these clearances to OFA since you do not have a registration # on your dog. Golden Retrievers are prone to a massive amount of health issues, which is why breeding needs to be done extremely carefully. You need to be able to research your dog's pedigree to look for any histories of cancers, hip dysplasia, elbow, dysplasia, eye problems, heart problems, and a variety of other things. You also need the dogs in your dog's pedigree to have these same health clearances, and you need to go back at least 2 or 3 generations for these. Then, you need to get the above clearances on your dog, which are not exactly cheap to get. Please do NOT breed your dog. Breeding is something that should be left to the experts. There are enough unregistered and homeless dogs in this world. Please don't contribute to that population. Leave the breeding to those who are highly experienced and put a ton of time of money into evaluating their dogs and breed strictly for the sake of breeding dogs within breed standard and bettering the breed, not just because they "want puppies."


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## LauraBella (Feb 9, 2010)

(And YES, they could have a dozen or more pups. And everyone who's actually researching the doggie purchase is going to be told to steer clear of those pups bc of the questionable breeding. So there is a VERY good chance that some or all of those pups will go to questionable homes or shelters. If this lady is picking a stud at random, she's probably not a good owner screener, either.)


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LauraBella said:


> (And YES, they could have a dozen or more pups. And everyone who's actually researching the doggie purchase is going to be told to steer clear of those pups bc of the questionable breeding. So there is a VERY good chance that some or all of those pups will go to questionable homes or shelters. If this lady is picking a stud at random, she's probably not a good owner screener, either.)


It's amazing to me that people actually drive by and make these bizarre offers! It happened with our first Golden mix many many years ago! I looked at the woman like she had 10 heads and she drove off. Unbelievable on so many levels!


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## LauraBella (Feb 9, 2010)

Dallas Gold said:


> It's amazing to me that people actually drive by and make these bizarre offers! It happened with our first Golden mix many many years ago! I looked at the woman like she had 10 heads and she drove off. Unbelievable on so many levels!


I've never shown or done anything remotely like that. But, while Belles looks "pretty Golden" I can still quickly list about half a dozen reasons she's obviously not breedable (and suspiciously mixed). Including an overbite and the fact that she's almost an inch shy of height requirements. And people have stopped me in PetSmart to ask about breeding. I'm thinking, "are you daft?" If my untrained eye can spot it, why do you call yourself a breeder if you CAN'T? (Although, I do consider it still a compliment when people ask me where I got her. Found Treasure.)


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## Goldenz (Mar 16, 2010)

Is this the Samson in the other thread "large puppy'...? Anyone who drives by and questions breeding to a 5-mo old puppy is ignorant of the entire process. (If you told me you were from Lancaster, PA, I'd guess this person to be Amish.) Breeding should only be done for the betterment of the breed. True breeders do tons of reasearch on pedigrees to find the best fit for their sire or dam. To breed your dog is a very serious decision. Clearances are expensive and absolutely necessary!
Cancer is prevalent, as is hip dysplasia, in this breed. Massive amounts of money are being spent on cancer research in Goldens. I don't want to sound mean since I gather you are not aware of all of this, and because so many Goldens sit in rescue shelters, you have absolutely no business breeding this dog. Please have him neutered.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

We were at a show recently where somebody was stalking us and kept asking me if I was going to breed my Jacks and suggested that he knew somebody with a female. It was really freaky.

Depends on the person asking and the reasons why... but temperament and looks aren't enough reason to breed a dog. I'd honestly prefer that the dog be tested in performance sports and/or conformation, that way you can add value to the breeding, besides just breeding for puppies. And then even if you don't show or anything, you still absolutely need to have full health clearances for the dogs being bred and hopefully going back 5 generations - all which is expensive. 

I looked at the guy like he was bananas and told him that under no circumstances would I ever breed my dog. 

The only way Jacks is going to get a puppy is if I go out and buy one and tell him it's his. He wouldn't know the difference anyway. :

The other thing to consider - if your dog doesn't have papers, then that lowers the value of the breeding. Means that his puppies would be those bybs sold in the newspaper for $250.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Oh my...........


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

WOW - RED Flags all over!!:slamdoor:

Breeding Sampson jus because you want one of his puppies some day is a worst reason to breed your dog. Do you know anything about his parents, were any health clearances done on them, the grandparents, great grandparents, etc.?

Read some of the health threads about dogs with hip eye heart, thyroid, cancer, etc. So many health issues in Goldens because people are breeding for all the wrong reasons. Any someone who stops you on the street and asks to breed a puppy she knows nothing about and has know way to know how he will turn out, she is not a reputable breeder. 

Run as far from her as possible, do your homework, check out the threads from reputable breeders and learn all the health issues and then ask yourself if you really are doing the right thing.

So many Goldens in rescue and shelters because of BYB and mills, please stop and really consider the issues.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Oh boy. Let the games begin!


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Stay tuned, there is more to come.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

You know, this entire thread is just sad to me!
Sad because you are not a first time poster that can claim ignorance! You are a member with over 150 posts, so that means you've been around the site for a while. And why that is sad, is because it tells me *you have* *missed the entire purpose of why this website exists.*

*Please* re-consider breeding your pup. You will only be *contributing* to a huge problem. There are enough animals in shelters.

Kim


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

Katie and Paddy's Mum said:


> You know, this entire thread is just sad to me!
> Sad because you are not a first time poster that can claim ignorance! You are a member with over 150 posts, so that means you've been around the site for a while. And why that is sad, is because it tells me *you have* *missed the entire purpose of why this website exists.*
> 
> *Please* re-consider breeding your pup. You will only be *contributing* to a huge problem. There are enough animals in shelters.
> ...


:appl::appl::appl:


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The fact that two people with dogs under six months old are already talking about breeding really makes me sad.

Please do not add yet ANOTHER backyard breeder to the list of people breeding endless dogs with little to no thought of breeding to improve the breed. It not fair to the dogs.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

OY! This makes me very, very sad. Breeding a dog just because somebody passes by and says she wants to breed her bitch puppy to your dog is just about the lamest reason I've ever heard.


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

:uhoh: That is all.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

I actually got this in my email this am

Spay and Neuter Myths | www.cesarsway.com

Spay and Neuter Myths
Spaying or neutering your dog is an important part of responsible pet ownership. Unneutered male dogs that are not able to mate experience frustration, which can lead to aggression. Unspayed female dogs attract unwanted attention every six months. From a psychological and biological point-of-view, it is the best thing for your dog. 
When you get your dog spayed or neutered, be sure your dog is in a calm and balanced state. Never spay or neuter a frustrated, nervous, tense, aggressive, or anxious dog!
Pet overpopulation and euthanasia are a continuing problem. Be a part of the solution: spay or neuter your pets.
Cesar Millan
In the United States, seven puppies and kittens are born for every one human. As a result, there are just not enough homes for the animals, and four to five million dogs and cats are euthanized every year.
Sterilizing dogs and cats has been hailed as the most effective method for pet population control. You can help save lives by spaying and neutering your pet. If pets can’t breed, they don’t produce puppies that end up in animal shelters to be adopted or euthanized. Currently, over 56% of dogs and approximately 75% of cats entering shelters are put to sleep.
The perpetuation of myths about spaying and neutering and the high cost cause many people to avoid the procedures, but the fact is sterilization makes your dog a better behaved, healthier pet and will save you money in the long run.
Many people, particularly men, have a hard time sterilizing their pets, imposing upon their dogs their own feelings on losing reproductive abilities. A dog will not feel like less of a “man” or “woman” after being sterilized. It will not suffer an identity crisis or mourn the loss of its reproductive capability. Your dog will simply have one less need to fulfill.
A dog’s basic personality is formed more by environment and genetics than by sex hormones, so sterilization will not change your dog’s basic personality, make your dog sluggish or affect its natural instinct to protect the pack. But it will give you a better behaved pet.
Neutered dogs have less desire to roam, mark territory (like your couch!) and exert dominance over the pack. Spayed dogs no longer experience the hormonal changes during heat cycles that turn your pet into a nervous dog that cries incessantly and attracts unwanted male dogs. Sterilized dogs are more affectionate and less likely to bite, run away, become aggressive, or get into a fight.
Another myth is that spaying and neutering cause weight gain. Dogs do not get fat simply by being sterilized. Just like humans, dogs gain weight if they eat too much and exercise too little or if they are genetically programmed to be overweight. The weight gain that people may witness after sterilization is most likely caused by continuing to feed a high energy diet to a dog that is reducing its need for energy as it reaches adult size.
Dogs do not mourn their lost capability to reproduce. They reproduce solely to ensure the survival of their species. They do not raise a puppy for eighteen years. They do not dream of their puppy’s wedding. They do not hope for the comfort of grandchildren in their old age. Female dogs nurse for a few weeks, teach the puppies rules, boundaries, and limitations and send them off to join the pack. Male dogs are not “fathers” in the human sense of the word; they do not even recognize puppies as their own.
As for expense, today there are enough low cost and free spay and neuter programs that this can no longer be an excuse! Even if these programs are not available in your area, the emotional distress and money spent on medical treatments you will save down the line makes it an investment that will be worth every penny.
Sterilization reduces the risk of incidence of a number of health problems that are difficult and expensive to treat. In females, it eliminates the possibility of developing uterine or ovarian cancer and greatly reduces the chance of breast cancer. Also, some females experience false pregnancies and uterine infections that can be fatal. Prostate cancer risk is greatly reduced in males. By sterilizing your pet, your dog will live a healthier and longer life.
Efforts by programs such as SPAY/USA already seem to be having an effect. In 1980, approximately 23.4 million animals were euthanized. Twenty-two years later, the estimate was down to 4.6 million. In towns and cities that have already implemented sterilization programs, the number of companion animals who had to be euthanized is showing a decline of 30 to 60 percent.
The truth is that neutered and spayed dogs are better pets. And though we’re heading in the right direction, the problem of euthanasia continues. Be a part of the solution. Spay or neuter your pet today!
*For more information, please visit: *
*SPAY/USA*
_Ask the Vet: _Best Age to Spay or Neuter
Millan Foundation's Spay and Neuter Campaign


Well, if you decide to breed Samson to this strange bitch, please let us know so we can get the local rescues ready to move in, vet and rehome. 

Please reconsider this, the only reason to breed your dog, is for the improvement of the breed, not because they are cute puppies. All puppies are cute.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I also want to add: I know that it's hugely flattering to have someone compliment your dog and say they'd like to breed to him. We all love our dogs and appreciate hearing nice things about them. I also understand that the idea of having puppies is exciting and, while I don't share this interest, I get that many people like the idea of having a puppy from one of their dogs. (For me, I always say, if I like my dog so much and want one "like him" I'd do better to go back to the breeder and inquire about a repeat breeding.)

Anyway - all that said..... I think it's grossly irresponsible to use anywhere from 3-12 living, breathing creatures (parents + litter of 1-10) to feed my desire to "breed" my dog.

There's definitely room for new, dedicated breeders --- but letting your un-registered male breed to a female does not make you one of them.

If you want to breed, find a dedicated breeder, in good standing with the GR Club of America, who will mentor you, and spend several years learning the ins and outs of the breed, along with what goes into breeding a healthy litter.

Until then, love your dog, neuter him when he's old enough, and spend his lifetime enjoying him for the wonderful companion animal that he is!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@the spay/neutering thing... I kinda think there are myths and nonsensical hype on the other side too, aside from the bit about female dogs (which I feel need to be spayed as soon as possible). Intact dogs DO NOT BECOME aggressive. Neutered dogs are not automatically going to live longer than intact dogs. Neutered dogs are not better behaved. And just because an intact dog is intact DOES NOT mean that he is going to inevitably breed and add to the dog population. And the marking, biting, fighting, lack of affection.... it does not happen unless your dog already has unrelated behavioral issues, has not been trained, or comes from poor breeding. 

Whether the dog breeds or not is solely at the blame of the dogs owners. Carelessness or stupidity on their part leads to unwanted litters. 

I thought I'd chip that in as somebody who does not neuter unless it is necessary. And I'm a female, not a guy, and it has nothing to do with macho thinking on my part. : We could control our dogs and keep them trained properly, so "wander lust" was not a problem. With the cats it was a big problem, which is why the cat got the snip-snip asap. And he still marks and is still territorial and aggressive towards strange cats on his turf.


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

Ok I didn't want to say anything in this thread at all, but I need to say this... does this lady know what risk she is putting her female at by not spaying her!?!?! Have you heard of Pyometra!?!?! Please do a google search contact that lady and say no and advise her to spay her girl for the sake of her life!


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

I understand the desire to have a puppy sired by the dog you love. When I made the decision to have my Sabrina spayed, I was terribly sad about giving up the possibility that I could keep a line of dogs as wonderful as she was. Though I had her AKC papers, she was from a backyard breeder. And then I was every bit as ignorant about the realities of breeding as you are.

Sabrina was three when she was diagnosed with congenital kidney disease. She was perhaps 5 when her hip dysplasia became a real issue and soon thereafter she was plagued with severe arthritis in her rear legs. When she was 7, her kidney disease began to worsen, but I couldn't figure out why. A few weeks before her 8th birthday, she refused to eat or drink and I took her to an emergency clinic over Thanksgiving weekend. The diagnosis: cancer on her heart that made treatment of her worsening kidney disease impossible. It was a death sentence.

I took my sweet girl home to say goodbye to friends and to Joker and Charlie, the boys she had raised. We had a couple of good days together, with frequent checking by our vet. On his last visit I made him leave an injection that I could give Sabrina if she reached a point of needing help during the night. She woke me at 5:00 a.m. to get that shot and then slept at my feet, with Joker licking into her dry nose and mouth. A few hours later we took her to our vet for her very last shots and she died in my arms. 

I have never added up the bills for her many blood tests, prescription food, pain medication, and Adequan injections to fight arthritis. The bills from the last week of her life alone were over $6,000.

Sabrina was spectacular to look at and drew crowds of admirers. She was the sweetest, smartest, most loving dog I have ever known. In GRF terms, she was my heart dog. 

But to have bred her would have been to pass on the genes that made her life so painfully hard. I ache to have Sabrina back and would give the world to have a healthy puppy just like her. But that could never have been Sabrina's puppy.

Don't do this. Please. For the love of every Golden in the world, don't do this.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)




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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

This thread leaves me speechless. I would imagine that anyone who participates in this forum has a clue about breeding dogs after reading the posts.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Having written this, I have clients who have bred unregistered goldens with no clearances and no pedigrees. It makes me sick, they call me a snob.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I hope the OP understands that all of our comments against this type of breeding is merely because we love the breed so much. I don't think we should chastise or denigrate the OP because we think she should understand the concept of backyard breeding - there is a chance maybe the poster simply hasn't come across posts discussing that topic.

I do hope you take all of our comments to heart though. As much as we all love our dogs, it takes a professional to truly understand the concept of breeding and be successful at it. I love Flora, but she is a genetic NIGHTMARE. If I had bred her I can only imagine the types of problems she would have passed on to her progeny.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And lastly, the first puppy ever returned to me was a gorgeous pup that when the owner was walking away from me after she purchased him, she said, " I think we might breed him." My younger son, outside with us at the time, went inside because he knew what I would say. Long story short, I think she got a lot of inquiries to breed to him. She contacted me saying she wanted full registration to show him. She had never been to a dog show in her life, never spent a penny to show a dog, and the pup was purchased from money from a housewarming present. I told her that I questioned her motives. After unfriendly email interchanges, a short time later, the dog was returned on short notice at 10 months of age and neutered. He now has a terrific forever home. He was actually quite a handsome dog and could've been shown.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

The OP is a relative newcomer to the GRF. I think starting this thread displays a desire to learn. This is a good place to do that - if we can just remember that few of us started out knowing everything we know today.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

GoldensGirl said:


> The OP is a relative newcomer to the GRF. I think starting this thread displays a desire to learn.


I wish, but check out this thread: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...scussion/87792-puppy-breeder-frustration.html


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I just want to say i feel sad that the Op is considering breeding her unregistered dog. I say leave the breeding to those that know best.

In saying that my Shelley was on main registration and i could have got the clearances and with her breeders support breed her to a stud the breeder of Shelley found for her. But i decided not too as i didn't want to risk lossing Shelley. So i got her spayed altho at times i feel like i should have bred her but i made the best decision for both of us.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Lots of things to learn. Join your local GR club, speak with some breeders, ask them to evaluate Samson. Does he meet the written standard once he's grown a bit? Did he pass his clearances at age two? ETC. 

You could breed Samson 'just because' you want a puppy from him. What does that really do for you? Samson won't know that the puppy is related to him. The new puppy very likely won't be exactly like Samson, he'll have his own personality and characteristics. They won't be the same! 

Secondly, I seem to remember you getting Samson from a less than reputable breeder. Why make more babies, thus yourself becoming another irresponsible breeder. Because, that is in fact what you will be. You will breed an unregistered dog with no or little history of clearances to any bitch just because someone want to pay for it. 

Leave the breeding to the professionals. If you sincerely want to learn, join the local golden club, seek a mentor, and start fresh with a registered and fully health cleared pedigree'd pup.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm just going to say that I don't understand why people want to breed their dogs just so they can have a puppy from them. Are you going to love a puppy MORE if he's by Samson? Did you breed Samson yourself? No? Then why would you not love a puppy just as much if you get one by a different source? It's not like it's a bloodline upon bloodline upon bloodline.

I love Ranger an incredible amount but I wouldn't love a new puppy LESS just because it wasn't Ranger's progeny. I just don't get it. Save a few lives and neuter your dog. Help the world's overpopulated pet problem. Don't assume that just because the pups are Samson's progeny that everyone is going to be lining up to buy one. Or even that if you find homes for them that they'll be forever homes. How would you feel if 4 years down the line you see a dog in a kill shelter that looks just like Samson because his owners gave up the puppy? Seems pretty selfish to me.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Katie and Paddy's Mum said:


> You know, this entire thread is just sad to me!
> Sad because you are not a first time poster that can claim ignorance! You are a member with over 150 posts, so that means you've been around the site for a while. And why that is sad, is because it tells me *you have* *missed the entire purpose of why this website exists.*
> 
> *Please* re-consider breeding your pup. You will only be *contributing* to a huge problem. There are enough animals in shelters.
> ...


You took the words right out of my mouth.

It seriously saddens me that the OP would even consider breeding an unregistered, uncleared dog to a complete stranger of a dog - ESPECIALLY having spent time on this forum. Please do some research - and you will quickly see how selfishly breeding your dog will only add to the downfall of the breed.


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## ggal (Nov 15, 2010)




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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ggal said:


>


 
I guess I don't find this thread entertaining. The welfare of the dogs means too much to me. Even _considering _breeding a possibly oversized, unregistered dog, with clearances, just to get one puppy for yourself (and not giving thought to the fact that there could be 8-10 more puppies, or what happens with them...) is hard to reconcile.


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## ggal (Nov 15, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I guess I don't find this thread entertaining. The welfare of the dogs means too much to me. Even _considering _breeding a possibly oversized, unregistered dog, with clearances, just to get one puppy for yourself (and not giving thought to the fact that there could be 8-10 more puppies, or what happens with them...) is hard to reconcile.


Thanks for the scolding. I suppose I don't see how my little emoticon was any different than the others chiming in with "oh this will be good". But if you choose to single me out, that is fine.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

jackie_hubert said:


> I wish, but check out this thread: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...scussion/87792-puppy-breeder-frustration.html



Doesn't look like they took any advice there either, if they now have an unregistered pup with no breeding clause.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ggal said:


> Thanks for the scolding. I suppose I don't see how my little emoticon was any different than the others chiming in with "oh this will be good". But if you choose to single me out, that is fine.


It wasn't about you, personally, actually, and it wasn't scolding. But, if you choose to look at it that way, that is fine.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

How about not being aggressive or patronizing to the OP? We could just inform her about why this isn't a good idea and suggest better ways to go. Nobody was born knowing it all, right? And believe me, attacking is not educating. At all.

So, here's my opinion.

First of all, if your pup is unregistered, he shouldn't be bred, regardless howspectacular and lovable he is. This is not just out of snobbism: all breedings should be arranger with an aim to improve the breed as a whole and not just to get puppies. Although I can sympathise with your desire to get a pup from your beloved dog, it isn't such a good idea. See, Samson is a cute ball of fur right now, as every young pup is. But he still has to prove that he is in good health and that when he grows he complies with the standard. Goldens have so many genetic diseases and with no info about his ancestors or siblings it is really a matter of luck for Samson.
Having said that, if your desire is really strong and you are willing to do things the right way, contact a GR Club and find out if there's a way to have him registered. For example, in my country you can get an initial register for an animal that doesn't have his proper registration by having him assessed by three different judges to see if he fits the standard and getting all the health clearances. The judges are very strict, so only the best dogs get the initial register to become a foundation bitch or stud. However, even if they get to be registered, they are still less desirable to breed because they don't have any info about their genetic history.
On the other hand, you shpuld wait until he's 2 years old before thinking about breeding him. Not only because it is at age 2 when you should get all clearances done (some have to be repeated yearly since then too) but also because a younger dog isn't fully developed or mature enough. If he isn't fully developed you cannot really see the dog he will become and if it will comply with the standard or not. Also, the effort needed to mount a bitch could harm a younger dog's joints and if his hips aren't really well (and you won't know that until he's 2 and you get the proper Xrays) the harm could be serious and affect his welfare during all his life. Temperament is also something to bear in mind, because a young dog's temperament can change if allowed to breed at an early age. So, if you are serious about this, wait until he's 2 and get all the clearances. If he doesn't have an excellent health, don't breed him: think about the future owners of the pups and how much they'll suffer having a sick dog. Imagine yourself in that situation, the vet bills, the heartache, not knowing if your pup will ever be able to lead a normal life.
And remember that even if you do every little thing right, you should also check that the female's owner is doing it right too. Pups get 50% of their genes from each parent, so even if Samson is an excellent, healthy dog, if the bitch isn't, it won't work.
The female's owner also has an extra chore which involves a lot of responsibility: screening the homes where the puppies will be placed. As the owner of the stud you don't have to get involved, but you should. They are your dog's offspring, so you should know the kinds of families they will have and be able to contact them if anything comes up. you should ensure that they go to good, responsible and permanent homes. That requires quite a lot of people skills and a lot of effort.

So, ask yourself if you are willing to spend the time and money it takes to breed responsibly. If not, Samson will love any puppy you bring home fo him in the future. He won't be specially attached to one just because it's not his offspring. It's your desire, not his.

In my very honest opinion, you shouldn't breed him at all. But if you do, please do things right.

I plan to breed my dog in the future. He's registered, has a great pedigree with hardly any inbreeding (less than 6% according to K9data), has excellent preliminary hip and elbow clearances and I'll get the rest of the clearances when he's old enough. I'll get him assessed by a judge even when I strongly don't want to show him. I have taken a course in canine genetics and plan to take one on breeding this year. And even with all those things, there's still a long way to go before I make up my mind and find the perfect female. And I know if anything goes even slightly wrong healthwise or temperamentwise, I won't breed him at all. And lots of people here will think even with all those precautions, I shouldn't breed him because I'm not a professional. So, think about it, don't rush into something that may have disastrous consequences.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Anyone considering allowing their dog to be used at stud needs to also consider that they are responsible for the bitch during the time she is being bred. You need to be able to safely accomodate a bitch in season for approximately a week. You need to be able to get her to a vet for progesterone testing and AI's, if needed. 

Apartment dwelling is not conducive to sound management of an active stud dog.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

That depends on the kind of apartment you own and the kind of safe exercise you can provide for your dog and the bitch (and I'm stressing safe here because a bitch in heat cannot go for walks or to the park like any other dog). Apartment dwelling may not be a limitation as long as there's enough space, you can provide a safe green space where they can run and play and you have a vet you can trust if necessary.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I guess it really doesn't matter what is best, if someone wants to breed, they're gonna breed.
Is it any wonder that we have so many people coming here lamenting about their poor dogs being ill/crippled/dying, and learning the hard way about what it means to be a good breeder?


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## Rctriplefresh5! (Mar 24, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I guess it really doesn't matter what is best, if someone wants to breed, they're gonna breed.
> Is it any wonder that we have so many people coming here lamenting about their poor dogs being ill/crippled/dying, and learning the hard way about what it means to be a good breeder?


I think the OP needs to stop being selfish and start think about the rbeed. e got Shane from the shelter at 11 months..he will be 8(hopefully =() in june. he still looks and acts just as good as when he was a puppy...extremely good looking dog, breed standard size...rambunctious. He has many mast cell tumors and his outcome looks really bad.

im devastated...think about the breeed...jsut because samson looks good doesnt mean hes got good genes case closed


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm sorry to get on my soapbox on this issue as well, but I think taking one trip down to a shelter would show anyone that there is no need for more irresponsibly bred dogs in this world. There are plenty already in shelters waiting for homes. I really really really hope you reconsider breeding your dog.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Just imagine, if everyone here had that 'just one litter' out of their dogs, good or bad. For this household today, that would be 24 dogs on the ground needing homes.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Bender said:


> Just imagine, if everyone here had that 'just one litter' out of their dogs, good or bad. For this household today, that would be 24 dogs on the ground needing homes.


Or becoming hoarded dogs.... :doh:

I was thinking about this w/respects to somebody who lived next door to my sister at one point. They bred their labs just for fun and money. It was disgusting and my sister complained to the humane society, but obviously who was going to stop them if they weren't actually abusing their dogs? 

So the dogs had puppies. And from what I understand, they could not find paying homes for the puppies and resorted to going door to door and trying to give them away. And I think a bunch of them probably became a "Litter B" at an animal shelter. 

I'd hate to be in a position like that. Especially if I could see my golden in all of the puppies.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Homeward Bound Golden Retriever Rescue in northern California rescued 850 goldens and golden mixes in 2010 ALONE. That is one golden in rescue in one part of one state. The number of dogs in shelters and rescues, and awaiting rescue, is staggering. I can't imagine adding to that number with a thoughtless breeding.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

It is important to note that responsible, reputable, caring breeders will not only take back any dogs they have bred, no matter what, they _insist _on it - we do not want dogs that we produced, and therefore are ultimately responsible for, to end up in shelters and rescues. Are you prepared to do this? Are you _able _to do this? Further, as a stud dog owner, it is understood that he will only be bred to a bitch belonging to a breeder who insists on this - I don't want any of my stud dog's offspring ending up in shelters or rescues, either. I'd take them in myself, first.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

West said:


> That depends on the kind of apartment you own and the kind of safe exercise you can provide for your dog and the bitch (and I'm stressing safe here because a bitch in heat cannot go for walks or to the park like any other dog). Apartment dwelling may not be a limitation as long as there's enough space, you can provide a safe green space where they can run and play and you have a vet you can trust if necessary.



Personally I would not send my dog to be bred if the situation was an apartment without a secure, well fenced, private yard attached, with a person with experience in handling breeding and intact dogs etc... just too many 'what ifs' in that situation if you're driving the dogs to get exercise or hoping nobody approaches the bitch in season while she's going for one of many, many potty breaks. 

I'm finding it a pain today having a foster dog who I don't trust with Storee and Storee being on day one and cranky/needy. And that foster is spayed, good with most dogs but the two haven't shown me signs they'd be ok together without a fence between them (mainly because this foster keeps flying at the crate door or fence being a goof and Storee isn't going to put up with being told off in her house!).

Now, if they were out at a partk at the same time, maybe, but the foster isn't off leash safe and needs a lot of work, so for now it's manage the two till they settle down (and Storee is out of season and not hormone charged). Something else to keep in mind for any potential breeders out there, not every dog is going to come into your house and just settle right into life without a problem!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Bender said:


> Personally I would not send my dog to be bred if the situation was an apartment without a secure, well fenced, private yard attached, with a person with experience in handling breeding and intact dogs etc... just too many 'what ifs' in that situation if you're driving the dogs to get exercise or hoping nobody approaches the bitch in season while she's going for one of many, many potty breaks.
> 
> I'm finding it a pain today having a foster dog who I don't trust with Storee and Storee being on day one and cranky/needy. And that foster is spayed, good with most dogs but the two haven't shown me signs they'd be ok together without a fence between them (mainly because this foster keeps flying at the crate door or fence being a goof and Storee isn't going to put up with being told off in her house!).
> 
> Now, if they were out at a partk at the same time, maybe, but the foster isn't off leash safe and needs a lot of work, so for now it's manage the two till they settle down (and Storee is out of season and not hormone charged). Something else to keep in mind for any potential breeders out there, not every dog is going to come into your house and just settle right into life without a problem!


Too many people think that all you do is put an intact male with a bitch in season and Voila. Not so. 
Even if one bitch is in to bred to one dog, you really do need to keep them separated other than when a breeding takes place - fully monitored, mind you. I cannot envision ever sending a bitch to be bred to a stud dog living in an apartment situation.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I, would not want the the lives of the puppies, to follow me around, it would worry me to death, who has them, what kind of lives do they have, are they healthy, leave that to the people that know what they are doing.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

I think is great that you are considering breeding your golden. Prices for purebred golden puppies are very high these days because people are so eager to discourage hobby breeding and that artificially restricts supply and pushes up prices. If priced reasonably, you could allow people to adopt goldens who otherwise wouldn't be able to. 

Don't pay attention to the naysayers, they have an elitist view of pet ownership where puppies are supposed to cost upwards of $1,000 and the poor are locked out of pet ownership. Even the rescue dogs they complain about not having homes end up costing several hundred dollars to adopt and often come with onerous requirements about what type of food to feed the dog and so on and so forth while being invasive of people's privacy with home inspections and interviews of family and friends. If people want rescues to be more popular, they need to make them as easy and as inexpensive as adopting a dog from the free pet section of a newspaper or buying a puppy was in yesteryear. 

Pet ownership is something ha should be open to everyone with room in his or her heart for an animal who is willing to provide food and play and walks and such.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I think is great that you are considering breeding your golden. Prices for purebred golden puppies are very high these days because people are so eager to discourage hobby breeding and that artificially restricts supply and pushes up prices. If priced reasonably, you could allow people to adopt goldens who otherwise wouldn't be able to.
> 
> Don't pay attention to the naysayers, they have an elitist view of pet ownership where puppies are supposed to cost upwards of $1,000 and the poor are locked out of pet ownership. Even the rescue dogs they complain about not having homes end up costing several hundred dollars to adopt and often come with onerous requirements about what type of food to feed the dog and so on and so forth while being invasive of people's privacy with home inspections and interviews of family and friends. If people want rescues to be more popular, they need to make them as easy and as inexpensive as adopting a dog from the free pet section of a newspaper or buying a puppy was in yesteryear.


Nice. You really couldn't be more wrong. 
Got clearances?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ignorance is obviously bliss.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I think is great that you are considering breeding your golden. Prices for purebred golden puppies are very high these days because people are so eager to discourage hobby breeding and that artificially restricts supply and pushes up prices. If priced reasonably, you could allow people to adopt goldens who otherwise wouldn't be able to.
> 
> Don't pay attention to the naysayers, they have an elitist view of pet ownership where puppies are supposed to cost upwards of $1,000 and the poor are locked out of pet ownership. Even the rescue dogs they complain about not having homes end up costing several hundred dollars to adopt and often come with onerous requirements about what type of food to feed the dog and so on and so forth while being invasive of people's privacy with home inspections and interviews of family and friends. If people want rescues to be more popular, they need to make them as easy and as inexpensive as adopting a dog from the free pet section of a newspaper or buying a puppy was in yesteryear.


If you've done any looking in Western PA, the back yard breeders doing ZERO clearances are still charging $900+ for their poorly bred, undersocialized puppies. I understand that sometimes puppies from great hobby breeders are out of some people's price range, but getting a dog is an investment and shouldn't be done on a whim. If planned and done correctly, these prices are not unattainable, no matter your Socioeconomic status. Calling us elitist because we love this breed is ridiculous. If you love the golden retriever, you shouldn't want it to be washed out by people back yard breeding.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Ok, first of all, if you have read my whole message, you'd see that I'm against this particular breeding and any kind of breeding done irresponsibly, without the improvement of the breed as the ultimate goal.

Having said that, I will only talk about the apartment situation. I guess some of you should read the excellent post about dogs living in apartments and the misconceptions usually related. Having an apartment doesn't necessarily mean you have no fenced space: many buildings have common gardens downstairs and many more have terraces, patios and the likes. Regarding space, my apartment is bigger than most of the houses I know. I have a spare room which would not only be suitable for a female dog but also her owner, if they want to stay while their dog is here. Everything in the apartment is dog proofed. I find it a safer environment than most houses. We have a big terrace, as well as a terraced balcony (dog proofed again). There's a park half a block away, where I would never take a female in heat, of course!
I have worked in animal welfare as a vet tech for years and have the best veterinary care available in the area. Having worked in shelters and having fostered lots of animals, I'm really used to screening people and making sure the animals I adopt to them have a great forever home. Moreover, I have always insisted on having any of my fosters back if anything came up. Fortunately, it only happened three times and I was able to find them another home (and a much better one) soon, except for a female cat that stayed with us, as my GF fell in love with her. 
Most of the breeders in my country have lots of dogs running around in big open spaces... and accidents happen. I've heard of their dogs killing each other in fights, irresponsible caretakers not feeding or cleaning properly, studs that are constantly in a cage and when they get out they are extra aggressive, unwanted breedings (sometimes crossbreedings) which result in puppies that are -at best- given away, levels of inbreeding that would blow your minds away and what not. And I'm not talking about backyard breeders here, mind you. I'm talking about some of the biggest, most famous breeders here. So, I think that I'd do a much better job, even if I'm still living in an apartment when Cooper is old enough (which isn't my plan) and IF I decide Cooper is fit to be a stud, which I won't know for another year and a half, at least. 
But if you'd prefer to take your female to be bred to a stud just because it lives in a house, even if the dog is constantly in the backyard unsupervised, for example, go ahead.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The point, Golden 999, is that the good hobby breeders on this forum do not let their dogs go to rescue... I have taken back 3 pups from my litters(rehomed 2, kept 1). It is the backyard breeders with no contracts and conscience whose dogs end up in rescue. I am a hobby breeder, I do all the clearances recommended by the GRCA. I show my dogs. I have a day job that pays the bills. I certainly not getting rich from the few litters I have bred. In fact, I stand behind my dogs and will refund money if I should...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

West said:


> Ok, first of all, if you have read my whole message, you'd see that I'm against this particular breeding and any kind of breeding done irresponsibly, without the improvement of the breed as the ultimate goal.
> 
> Having said that, I will only talk about the apartment situation. I guess some of you should read the excellent post about dogs living in apartments and the misconceptions usually related. Having an apartment doesn't necessarily mean you have no fenced space: many buildings have common gardens downstairs and many more have terraces, patios and the likes. Regarding space, my apartment is bigger than most of the houses I know. I have a spare room which would not only be suitable for a female dog but also her owner, if they want to stay while their dog is here. Everything in the apartment is dog proofed. I find it a safer environment than most houses. We have a big terrace, as well as a terraced balcony (dog proofed again). There's a park half a block away, where I would never take a female in heat, of course!
> I have worked in animal welfare as a vet tech for years and have the best veterinary care available in the area. Having worked in shelters and having fostered lots of animals, I'm really used to screening people and making sure the animals I adopt to them have a great forever home. Moreover, I have always insisted on having any of my fosters back if anything came up. Fortunately, it only happened three times and I was able to find them another home (and a much better one) soon, except for a female cat that stayed with us, as my GF fell in love with her.
> ...


It's not just about being at a house, and I should think it very obvious by my post that I don't condone ANY situation that would be unsupervised.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

pointgold said:


>


ditto this!!!


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

I find it worrisome that the OP hasn't yet replied. I hope she didn't get offended and run off. 

She needs to realize all these posts (which may come off as negative) are for the good of the breed.

Please don't be offended. Think about this. Say you DO breed your dog, and a puppy owner comes back to you and says their dog has bad hips or eyes, and needs surgery, or if it's bad enough, needs to be put down. And the cause was from breeding two unregistered dogs with NO clearances.

How would you feel? Pretty awful I bet. Please re-think this.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Golden999 said:


> I think is great that you are considering breeding your golden. Prices for purebred golden puppies are very high these days because people are so eager to discourage hobby breeding and that artificially restricts supply and pushes up prices. If priced reasonably, you could allow people to adopt goldens who otherwise wouldn't be able to.
> 
> Don't pay attention to the naysayers, they have an elitist view of pet ownership where puppies are supposed to cost upwards of $1,000 and the poor are locked out of pet ownership. Even the rescue dogs they complain about not having homes end up costing several hundred dollars to adopt and often come with onerous requirements about what type of food to feed the dog and so on and so forth while being invasive of people's privacy with home inspections and interviews of family and friends. If people want rescues to be more popular, they need to make them as easy and as inexpensive as adopting a dog from the free pet section of a newspaper or buying a puppy was in yesteryear.
> 
> Pet ownership is something ha should be open to everyone with room in his or her heart for an animal who is willing to provide food and play and walks and such.


The thing is that if you want to own a pet you have to be resposible. You have to give it a kinf of food that will help it develop fully. You have to give it appropriate vet care, exercise and so on.
And if you want a particular breed, you have to take into account its needs. For Goldens, so prone to hereditary diseases, clearances are a must. If you buy a puppy from a breeder who doesn't do clearances, you may be paying a bit less, but you'll have huge veterinary bills as a result. And your pup may not live a full, long life.
On the other hand, dogs end up in rescues due to irresponsible ownership or breeding. So of course, rescues don't want them to have another irresponsible owner. That's why they "invade your pirvacy", to make sure the animals are not going to end up in another sad situation. I know sometimes they require things that are a bit extreme, but usually they only seek the animal's well being.
Moreover, Goldens are expensive to mantain. I spent much more than the $1,000 I paid for my Golden in everything I needed for my home to be ready for him. And I still pay close to $500 a month in food, his vet plan and all his needs. So, if a person cannot really pay the cost of a well bred puppy, how will they be able to cater for its needs during its whole life?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

To me, it's all about the puppies and giving them (and their future owners), the best shot possible at a healthy, happy and long life. The best way to do this is by breeding dogs with a solid, 4-5 generation (minimum) pedigree with clearances and longevity, and standing behind them. One has only to look at recent posts from those who purchased dogs from breeders that don't do this, to see the emotional and fiscal cost. 

Obviously, I would prefer that they look like Goldens too  

If the BYB's and HVB's can do this with their dogs on a consistent basis, and want to sell their puppies for $200-$300-more power to them.

There's nothing elite about this-it's about compassion and empathy and caring.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I do have issues with apartments .... not because of the fenced space issues... or anything like that... but because you don't control where you live. 

I dont know how it is where you are West but in the states most apartments won't allow dogs... and when they do they are in high demand and difficult to find. I know this because I grew up as an apartment dweller... if the people sold the house we had to move... they would turn the apartment building into condos and we had to move. Finding an apt. was difficult at best and all it takes is one look at the listings to see that many won't allow dogs. 

What happens when the person has to move and can't find an apt that allows dogs... its a mess.... and the dog ends up paying the price... so no I won't send pups to apts. I wish it were different but my job is to protect the pup and find the best home for the pup and if all things are equal and i have two homes one in an apt. and one who owns their home (and there are no guarantees) I will go with the person who owns their own home. I hope that makes sense.... 

and just for the record... I had a dog growing up... her name was Penny she was a big ole black mutt the best dog ever... and my parents "got rid" of her when I was 19 when my dad lost his job and they had to move and couldn't find a place to live/rent that allowed dogs.... I was in college and we had gone to visit friends in NH and my parents went to get penny from the boarding kennel and never brought her home... to this day I don't know what happened to her... 

so no ... I am sorry... but no pups in rentals 
S


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey, [email protected]@K! A dead horse! Let's all keep beating it!

The OP hasn't been back. IMO, that means one of two things:

S/he is offended by our posts and won't be back, or the post was intended as a hit-and-run to watch the subsequent kabuki dancing.

OP: If you're still out there, I do hope you take most of what was written here to mean that we all love Goldens and as such, have a hard time supporting the practice of backyard breeding. Please do consider what we've had to say. If you do decide to breed your dog -- please AT LEAST do the required clearances and only breed him to a bitch for whom her owner has done the same.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

CarolinaCasey said:


> If you've done any looking in Western PA, the back yard breeders doing ZERO clearances are still charging $900+ for their poorly bred, undersocialized puppies. I understand that sometimes puppies from great hobby breeders are out of some people's price range, but getting a dog is an investment and shouldn't be done on a whim. If planned and done correctly, these prices are not unattainable, no matter your Socioeconomic status.


 I have first hand experience being poor and looking for a dog and I can tell you that some people genuinely can't afford the $900 you quote. I had barter someone down to around $300 to get my dog, and I even had to borrow that amount. Still, I sacrifice to be sure my dog has food, treats, bones, preventive vaccinations and medicines, etc -- was without internet and tv for a while and now it's super slow, working with an old broken computer, etc.. People would and have said folks like me shouldn't have dogs, but screw em. My dog, despite some behavior issues, is a great companion, has helped me some health wise with walks and such, and has grown up happy and healthy. It's the poor folks who need a pet in their lives he most who suffer when people discourage breeding and encourage high prices and high conditions for pet adoption.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Shalva said:


> I do have issues with apartments .... not because of the fenced space issues... or anything like that... but because you don't control where you live.
> 
> I dont know how it is where you are West but in the states most apartments won't allow dogs... and when they do they are in high demand and difficult to find. I know this because I grew up as an apartment dweller... if the people sold the house we had to move... they would turn the apartment building into condos and we had to move. Finding an apt. was difficult at best and all it takes is one look at the listings to see that many won't allow dogs.
> 
> ...


Couldn't that happen to people who own home as well and someone loses their job and they can't find a place that will take big dogs? Just saying.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Shalva said:


> so no ... I am sorry... but no pups in rentals


As an apartment-dwelling dog owner, I'd be curious to see how many dogs have been relinquished to shelters in the past three or so years following the mortgage crisis where people were losing their homes?

Not judging your decision not to sell to renters. I'm really just curious... and pointing out that things can happen anywhere. Personally, I can understand being extra cautious when considering a renter (perhaps renting only to those who have been at their residence at least x years and with a letter from the landlord) but eliminating them all together means you may miss out on some truly great homes for dogs.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

As someone who lived in an apartment with dogs, when the time came to move, we didn't move until we found a place that did allow pets. It was hard, but not impossible.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GoldenLover84 said:


> As someone who lived in an apartment with dogs, when the time came to move, we didn't move until we found a place that did allow pets. It was hard, but not impossible.


But, aren't you also keeping a dog "illegally"?


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

That was what I was trying to say, flyingQuizini. My sister and husband lost their home due to the housing issue and had to look for a place to rent. They have a boxer so they had to find someone who was willing to rent to a person with a big dog, which they did. I know it is hard to find apartments willing to rent to big dog owners, so I can see where it would be a concern.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> But, aren't you also keeping a dog "illegally"?


Does that have any relevance to this thread?


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

West said:


> And I still pay close to $500 a month in food, his vet plan and all his needs.


 What in the world are you feeding that dog?  

I think its great that some people, who can afford to, try to get the best of everything for their pet, but in the end I think its also okay for people to feed a regular dog food and get most of their pet supplies at the Wal-Mart or whatever. A lot of people have to get their people food at the Wal-Mart, too. That's life. Not every person or animal gets to live the high life, but that doesn't mean it'd have been better for them not to have been born - especially when it comes to pets, who are generally ignorant of their financial status.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I would never say that it can't happen to those who live in their own homes... and I believe I said that in my post... and maybe in some areas finding rentals that allow dogs is easier than in others... however, I can only go with my experience in this area... 

I know from personal experience how hard it is to find rentals that will allow dogs... when that changes I will reconsider... I do have a pup in a rental... but it is a younger girl in graduate school and I screened her entire family and I know that if she can't keep her dog because of the rental situation the pup will go to her parents until she gets more stable. 

It is a case by case but honestly in this area rentals are near impossible to find and honestly I generally have a pretty nice waiting list by the time I do a breeding... so I don't have to settle... I can be picky... and I realize how that must sound and feel to those of you who are in apts... and its really not a criticism of you guys at all...I know that some of you would sleep in your car before you rehomed your dog .... I know I would... but most people are not like you guys.... and when push comes to shove I have to make decisions that may not be popular in an attempt to protect my puppies. 

My responsibility first and foremost is to the puppies


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I do have issues with apartments .... not because of the fenced space issues... or anything like that... but because you don't control where you live.
> 
> I dont know how it is where you are West but in the states most apartments won't allow dogs... and when they do they are in high demand and difficult to find. I know this because I grew up as an apartment dweller... if the people sold the house we had to move... they would turn the apartment building into condos and we had to move. Finding an apt. was difficult at best and all it takes is one look at the listings to see that many won't allow dogs.
> 
> ...


I understand your point. However, in my country dogs are allowed in most apartments. In the one I rent, the owner loves animals in general and Cooper in particular. If I had to leave my apartment, I'd find a place where Cooper is comfortable. IIn fact, I'm already planning to move to a bigger house with a yard in 2 years time maximum. I'm sorry your father made that decision. But it's not a decision every apartment owner or person who's renting would be willing to make. I'd never make it.
Anyway, rentals don't necessarily equal apartments. People may rent a house too. People may own a house and lose it. It happened to me and my mother. And I didn't gave up my cat at that moment, I just found an apartment where he was allowed and kept it with the same standard of living. Yes, after losing a house and having my mom hospitalised. So, a responsible owner is a responsible owner regardless where he/she lives. I can assure you Cooper has a better standar of lving than most dogs who live in houses in my country. And more exercise, as I take him for walks 3-4 times a day and to the park everyday and to every natural environment I can at weekends or on holidays (in fact, we've just came back from a weekend trip to the Delta and tomorrow we leave for the beach for a week).

Sorry, I know this discussion doesn't really belong here but I wanted to make clear that not every situation is the same, and screening should be based in the responsibility and commitment of the future owner, not on their living space solely.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GoldenLover84 said:


> Does that have any relevance to this thread?


 
I think it does, as the discussion about how a dog is kept is part of it. Does the landlord know that you have an "illegal" dog"? It would seem to be a real possibility that if not, and s/he found out, that you'd be asked to leave. Or, get rid of the pit bull, which I'm guessing you would not want to do, so that would mean moving. Even if the landlord does know, that would mean that s/he is knowingly allowing a banned breed to live there, which would make him/her complicit to breaking that law.

And on a personal note, and I'd feel this way no matter who it was, so don't take it personally, I'd not sell a dog to someone who doesn't abde by the laws as pertains to dogs.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> What in the world are you feeding that dog?
> 
> I think its great that some people, who can afford to, try to get the best of everything for their pet, but in the end I think its also okay for people to feed a regular dog food and get most of their pet supplies at the Wal-Mart or whatever. A lot of people have to get their people food at the Wal-Mart, too. That's life. Not every person or animal gets to live the high life, but that doesn't mean it'd have been better for them not to have been born - especially when it comes to pets, who are generally ignorant of their financial status.


 
I have multiple dogs, and don't pay near that much, and I do feed a "premium" food, and my dogs are hardly wanting for anything... I understand that West lives in another country. But if paying $1000 for a dog created a hardship, how is $500 per month to feed/care for it sustainable?


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

The landlord knows, and has met both dogs and likes them.

Reece came from a bad home where she was locked outside in a car for long periods of time in the hot sun, beaten upon daily and was doomed for certain death.

Illegal or not, we could not stand to see her suffer, so we took her. I'm sorry if that seems immoral in some way. Whilst she is an illegal breed, we still abide by the rules. She is spayed, and she is muzzled when in public.

I can't stand by and watch a dog get abused and do nothing, regardless of the breed. I'd never consider myself irresponsible. I also feel that I don't really need to explain why I choose to do anything in my life.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GoldenLover84 said:


> The landlord knows, and has met both dogs and likes them.
> 
> Reece came from a bad home where she was locked outside in a car for long periods of time in the hot sun, beaten upon daily and was doomed for certain death.
> 
> ...


 
And that's all very noble, and she's lucky to have been rescued. I never even thought about the word "immoral", BTW. But there are other things to consider. It's very unlikely that you'd ever be able to get homeowner's insurance, so buyin a home would be out of the question, and if she were to ever injure another dog again, or, heaven forbid, a person, without liability insurance, and the fact that you have a banned breed, you'd be in some serious trouble. 
It's not a situation that I would want any of my dogs to be in - it's too precarious.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Well, breeds shouldn't be banned, poor ownership should. I find it ridiculous that some dogs are illegal.

Golden999, I feed Cooper Eukanuba, which is one of the top three brands in my country (the other two being Royal Canin and Proplan, but vet said Eukanuba is better here). It's $210 a 15kg bag, which Cooper eats in a month. And don't get me started on the cats, their food is a whooping $90 a 2 kg bag, which only lasts a week! Anyway, I totally sympathise with your words, as I've had many ups and downs in life and that didn't prevent me from having healthy pets (cats, at the time), which ate a proper but not top food and had proper veterinary care (I volunteeredat a vet, working Sundays full time and some weekday mornings so that they had free vet care, while I kept a full time 40 hours a week job). So it should be judged on a person to person basis, because each situation is different. I know dogs who belong to wealthy people and don't get enough attention or exercise, even if they eat top food. With Goldens, I'd be concerned about their health, but if you get a nice vet plan that covers all their needs with a low monthly fee, it would be alright. And I eat from Walmart too, only my pets are spoiled here


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

I completely understand your point. It was a very hard decision to make, but in the end, I couldn't stand to know that there was a dog suffering that I could save, and I think if I didn't do anything about it, I'd feel much worse.

We're not in the house market just yet, but that is definitely something to consider. 

I'm not saying she's perfect, but she has come a LONG way from the insecure dog she was. We have done a lot of training with her, and will probably have to keep training her for the rest of her life, but at least she is alive, and loved.

When the time comes to buy a house and such, we will deal with it however we can.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> And that's all very noble, and she's lucky to have been rescued. I never even thought about the word "immoral", BTW. But there are other things to consider. It's very unlikely that you'd ever be able to get homeowner's insurance, so buyin a home would be out of the question, and if she were to ever injure another dog again, or, heaven forbid, a person, without liability insurance, and the fact that you have a banned breed, you'd be in some serious trouble.
> It's not a situation that I would want any of my dogs to be in - it's too precarious.


There was a situation like this where we live just a couple of months ago. A woman was almost mauled to death by an American Bulldog. Even though that is not a banned breed here, the owner is still facing some very, very serious criminal charges, just for keeping a dangerous dog. It's amazing that this poor woman is even still alive. Here is the article about it from our local newspaper: Dog attack victim was “ripped apart” — Maine News — Bangor Daily News


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I have multiple dogs, and don't pay near that much, and I do feed a "premium" food, and my dogs are hardly wanting for anything... I understand that West lives in another country. But if paying $1000 for a dog created a hardship, how is $500 per month to feed/care for it sustainable?


Well, both my GF and I have steady jobs. I've been promoted recently. And I'm willing to pay that and more to ensure his well being. I don't pay $500 in food only, that covers his vet plan, treats, toys, and every other expense I consider fit. And it didn't create a hardship (ok, maybe those $1,000 plus the $1,000 I spent on everything he needed at first -from dog bed to toys and food and vaccinations, etc- meant that we were a bit short for that month, but fortunately we got by with no inconvenience.
I wouldn't add another dog to my house as I can't ensure the same standard of living Cooper has.
And, yes, I live in another country and I'm talking in Argentinian pesos here, not in dollars. Anyway, my salary is in Argentinian pesos too, so...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When my husband and I were first married, we lived in an apartment with a rescued beagle. Both of us are veterinarians. The apartment was 3 floors, we lived on the second. The first floor owners of the apt bred cairn terriers. At the time I worked 5 miles away from my job and either had 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 hours for lunch. After work, I would travel out to where my horse was kept, bring the dog, and go riding. A client of mine who bred and showed goldens had a bitch with hereditary cataracts. She would not let me have the dog because I lived in an apt and also had no fenced in yard. The next year, when a bitch from the repeat breeding developed a laterally luxating patella (needing expensive surgery), I was given the bitch(my heart dog) named Sally. I still lived in apt, I could bring the dog to work, and she went horseback riding with me every day(once her knee was repaired and rehabilitated). Dogs were allowed in the apt. We lived there for about 4 years until we bought our first house. I don't think any one would argue that my apt dwelling dog had a very nice life. By never being fenced in, she was trained to stay with me and come when called. Of course this whole thing about apts has gone off topic, but I truly believe there can be extenuating circumstances to woning dogs in apts. After all, I have relatives where the dog were "house dogs" but not allowed past the mudroom threshold. My heart dog lived to be 12 1/2 years... she was never fenced in.... in fact when we moved to the middle of my in-laws 68 acres, the other 2 goldens got Invisible Fence." They would watch Sally cross the line in amazement... like she was walking on water...


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> It's not just about being at a house, and I should think it very obvious by my post that I don't condone ANY situation that would be unsupervised.



My concern with sending an intact bitch to an apartment for breeding by the stud, is that that stud owner isn't likely the ONLY dog owner in the building and it would be impossible to safely get a dog in and out of the apartment to potty them without running into other dogs. And a common area is great but not much better than a public off leash park - would you be able, for example, to ensure that nobody else's dogs were in the hallways, elevator (which could spook some dogs since it's not a common thing for them to go on) and common area for the week or so required? I know here, small place, maybe 600 people, and on a typical walk if it's during daytime, we run into other dogs in some form. And it doesn't take long for an eager young dog to spread their 'wild oats' if given the chance, regardless of how well you can handle things! 

That of course does not condone those in your country or anywhere else that have oops litters and so on. Just that between those factors you wouldn't have control over, as well as possible disease and stress, I wouldn't send a dog into that situation. It's hard enough to manage with a house, dog run, dog room, crates and so on to keep everybody contained well, and I'm lucky in that while Ticket is intact, he's not a walking hormone, he'll get fussy in a week or so when Storee is really in, but he won't stop eating or chew out of a crate to get to her.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

What a horrible story. Why would anyone willingly allow their aggresive dog roam unrestricted.

See, that's the difference. I don't allow ANY of my animals off leash, unless in our own fenced in yard. Even Tucker in public, is leashed at all times. It can be dangerous for the dogs, and to others. (Tucker has been attacked by neighbourhood dog, and has also snapped at a Newfie who ran to us who was unleashed. Tucker will protect me if he feels the need to).

There's a big difference between irresponsible owners and responsible owners.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I rent a house, I pay $20/month extra for my dog. 

This is so discouraging. So now I have to be concerned about being a renter, AS WELL as not having a fenced yard?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Seems to me these types of blanket judgments might actually support less than reputable breeders


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Bender said:


> My concern with sending an intact bitch to an apartment for breeding by the stud, is that that stud owner isn't likely the ONLY dog owner in the building and it would be impossible to safely get a dog in and out of the apartment to potty them without running into other dogs. And a common area is great but not much better than a public off leash park - would you be able, for example, to ensure that nobody else's dogs were in the hallways, elevator (which could spook some dogs since it's not a common thing for them to go on) and common area for the week or so required? I know here, small place, maybe 600 people, and on a typical walk if it's during daytime, we run into other dogs in some form. And it doesn't take long for an eager young dog to spread their 'wild oats' if given the chance, regardless of how well you can handle things!
> 
> That of course does not condone those in your country or anywhere else that have oops litters and so on. Just that between those factors you wouldn't have control over, as well as possible disease and stress, I wouldn't send a dog into that situation. It's hard enough to manage with a house, dog run, dog room, crates and so on to keep everybody contained well, and I'm lucky in that while Ticket is intact, he's not a walking hormone, he'll get fussy in a week or so when Storee is really in, but he won't stop eating or chew out of a crate to get to her.


Also see your point here, but again you should find out the circumstances before deciding. Only three other dogs live in my building: a spayed female mutt, a neutered mini poodle and a young mutt puppy whose owner agreed to neuter him when he's 6 months old. So that wouldn't be an issue. Agreed, the elevator may slightly spook an unaccostumed dog, but how long would it take for a well-balanced dog to get over that? With positive training and good handling, no time at all. And I wouldn't be wary of the other three very small dogs in the common areas in my building. I know them and their owners and they are not a threat of any kind. Moreover, they are always leashed in the hallways and elevators, just like my dog. 
In these circumstances, there aren't any possible risks. I know not all the people who live in apartmets can ensure the same, but then again, you have to find out the exact circumstances before generalising.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I have first hand experience being poor and looking for a dog and I can tell you that some people genuinely can't afford the $900 you quote. I had barter someone down to around $300 to get my dog, and I even had to borrow that amount. Still, I sacrifice to be sure my dog has food, treats, bones, preventive vaccinations and medicines, etc -- was without internet and tv for a while and now it's super slow, working with an old broken computer, etc.. People would and have said folks like me shouldn't have dogs, but screw em. My dog, despite some behavior issues, is a great companion, has helped me some health wise with walks and such, and has grown up happy and healthy. It's the poor folks who need a pet in their lives he most who suffer when people discourage breeding and encourage high prices and high conditions for pet adoption.


It's good that you do that, however a lot of people can't, or won't, spend money on their dogs, regardless of income. My favorite example is the family who had the nanny drop the dog off, all supplies and so on included, because the 3 year old dog had a lump and they didn't want to waste money on having it looked at or treated by the vet and didn't want the hassle of post op care because it would have cut into their vacation/cruise plans. 

As for rescues being fussy, it's because they would rather rescue NEW animals and find new homes for them, rather than having to take animals back and rehome them ten times. So yeah, they expect the adoptive homes to pay out what they've paid for vet care and spaying (so it's DONE), and ask questions to make sure it's not a sudden 'oh lets get a dog' thing.

Two of the foster pups I had here, could have gone to homes with people I know, however I know in both cases they're not responsible pet owners - neither have fenced yards, and one can't stand my 13 year old golden because she's so 'busy' - yet she was convinced she'd be good with a husky/lab/border collie pup who was anything but calm and quiet.:no:


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Bender said:


> Two of the foster pups I had here, could have gone to homes with people I know, however I know in both cases they're not responsible pet owners - neither have fenced yards,


I cut this sentence off early because you only provided additional information about the 2nd owner you refused. Did you think the first wasn't a responsible pet owner only because they didn't have a fenced yard?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I would never say that it can't happen to those who live in their own homes... and I believe I said that in my post... and maybe in some areas finding rentals that allow dogs is easier than in others... however, I can only go with my experience in this area...
> 
> I know from personal experience how hard it is to find rentals that will allow dogs... when that changes I will reconsider... I do have a pup in a rental... but it is a younger girl in graduate school and I screened her entire family and I know that if she can't keep her dog because of the rental situation the pup will go to her parents until she gets more stable.
> 
> ...


Something I'm wondering is why couldn't you have an arrangement where if the family has to move then you the breeder could take the dog back and either hold until the owners have a new nest or rehome the dog. This is something that other breeders do, including my golden's breeder.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> I cut this sentence off early because you only provided additional information about the 2nd owner you refused. Did you think the first wasn't a responsible pet owner only because they didn't have a fenced yard?



The lack of fenced yard is just the start. They have two unsocialized, semi aggressive dogs who use the park behind us, or our front yard, for bathroom duties. They mainly seem to use the yard to store garbage till the rare time they take it to the dump (no garbage pickup here, we've even offered a few times to take it) so dogs and cats are usually in their yard snacking. They also are host to about a dozen cats, all intact, all outside and all fertile. Several times I've had to honk the horn or otherwise avoid running the dogs over on my way in or out, not very often are they out supervised and I've seen them go after people before who come to the house.

If it was lack of fence but awesome owners, I'd have no issues!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Bender said:


> If it was lack of fence but awesome owners, I'd have no issues!


Thank you


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

It seems this thread got too hot for the OP:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...9-my-defence-re-samson-might-have-babies.html


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Shalva....while i understand that some people that have apartments need to move for various reasons, you fail to take into consideration tha amount of people losing houses becasue they cannot afford it. I think that it is narrow minded to think that all pet owners that live in apartments will be like your parents and get "rid of thier dogs. Projecting maybe? What about people that move when they own a home? You are looking into so many variables. Just my 2 cents...and NO I dont live in an apartment.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Bender said:


> however a lot of people can't, or won't, spend money on their dogs, regardless of income. My favorite example is the family who had the nanny drop the dog off, all supplies and so on included, because the 3 year old dog had a lump and they didn't want to waste money on having it looked at or treated by the vet and didn't want the hassle of post op care because it would have cut into their vacation/cruise plans.
> 
> As for rescues being fussy, it's because they would rather rescue NEW animals and find new homes for them, rather than having to take animals back and rehome them ten times. So yeah, they expect the adoptive homes to pay out what they've paid for vet care and spaying (so it's DONE), and ask questions to make sure it's not a sudden 'oh lets get a dog' thing.


 OK, but its hard to then complain that these dogs can't find homes or there is a surplus population of them. As long as here is a significant fee and significant conditions imposed after adoption, you'll never know how many dogs who don't have homes might have found them were those fees and conditions not there. There a lot of people who have a lot of love to give but not a lot of money to spend who could still give dogs decent lives with enough food and exercise and whatever -- even if its cheaper food and whatever, a dog can still be happy. Life doesn't have to be perfect to be worth living.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I rent a house, I pay $20/month extra for my dog.
> 
> This is so discouraging. So now I have to be concerned about being a renter, AS WELL as not having a fenced yard?


Jo Ellen, you have so much documentation to support the great home you give Daisy. Between all the vet bills and the vets themselves, plus the posts on this board and the friends you have met. It just might take a couple.

It took us about two months to find MacKenzie - but she did find us.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> OK, but its hard to then complain that these dogs can't find homes or there is a surplus population of them. As long as here is a significant fee and significant conditions imposed after adoption, you'll never know how many dogs who don't have homes might have found them were those fees and conditions not there. There a lot of people who have a lot of love to give but not a lot of money to spend who could still give dogs decent lives with enough food and exercise and whatever -- even if its cheaper food and whatever, a dog can still be happy. Life doesn't have to be perfect to be worth living.



What exactly to you is 'excessive' as far as fees? Conditions?

The rescue I foster with is more expensive than some, but it covers mainly vet fees towards THAT dog's care - spay, microchip and shots. All of which would cost the private person with a free dog double the price of adoption. So regardless of if the dog was free, or $400, the RESPONSIBLE owner would have that money before they got a dog, at the very least, to pay for some of the costs up front ($400 here would be the basic puppy shots, not microchip or spay - to get a 'free' dog and do the same would be around the $700-$1000 mark).

Conditions - they expect the adoptive home to keep in contact with updates. And to be responsible dog owners. Take training if required for that dog. If they don't have a fenced yard they get asked if they will allow the dog to run loose or how do they plan to potty the dog. They expect the dog to be returned to them if anything goes wrong and that the dog will be a valued family member and live in the house. 

Maybe the rescues near you are different, but I don't see where any of the above is unreasonable - if someone is of limited funds, a rescue is the better deal overall (unless of course the person wants to get a free dog, never get shots or vet care done and keep the dog intact).

Just sayin'.....


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I don't fail to take that into account actually I said it at least twice.... I can only speak to the area that I live in.... Northern New England...where rentals are hard to find... and honestly I speak from experience of when I was a renter and how difficult it was to find a rental that would allow larger dogs and when you found them they were prohibitively expensive.... 

Megora I have a contract that states all puppies must come back to me if the family can't keep them... but honestly I can't run a boarding kennel. If I take back a puppy I am generally going to find them a home. I have a full house here and by contract I take all pups back but boarding over the long term is just not something that I can do. If I take a puppy back I will be looking for a home for them... Bing is the exception due to the health issues but otherwise we would have placed him in another home. 

Look I was a renter.... I do look at each situation individually but honestly I want a person to generally be in control of where they live and I can remember having to move all the time for an assortment of reasons. The reality is that if people would take better care of their dogs and not allow their dogs to damage places then landlords wouldn't be so adverse to renting to people with dogs and I wouldn't care if someone rented or not.... but until that happens... I am sorry.... 

now maybe other parts of the country are different but its a problem here


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I think is great that you are considering breeding your golden. Prices for purebred golden puppies are very high these days because people are so eager to discourage hobby breeding and that artificially restricts supply and pushes up prices. If priced reasonably, you could allow people to adopt goldens who otherwise wouldn't be able to.
> 
> Don't pay attention to the naysayers, they have an elitist view of pet ownership where puppies are supposed to cost upwards of $1,000 and the poor are locked out of pet ownership. Even the rescue dogs they complain about not having homes end up costing several hundred dollars to adopt and often come with onerous requirements about what type of food to feed the dog and so on and so forth while being invasive of people's privacy with home inspections and interviews of family and friends. If people want rescues to be more popular, they need to make them as easy and as inexpensive as adopting a dog from the free pet section of a newspaper or buying a puppy was in yesteryear.
> 
> Pet ownership is something ha should be open to everyone with room in his or her heart for an animal who is willing to provide food and play and walks and such.


All i'm going to say to this is bull sh*t. Buy from a registered breeder that does the clearances you have less chances of that dog having hip or elbow problems. So in the long run your spending only $1500 now compare a dog from a BYB where they do no clearances you have a higher risk of hip/elbow problems. So you could be spending $300 to buy this puppy but then hip replacement cost up to $6000 per hip. So you will be spending $12,300 on the dog does that seem worth it to you?


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

It's not easy in NYC either, but not impossible. I respect your position in this, but after trying to rescue through a regular rescue (not just 1), I understand the frustration with some rules and regulations that end up making people actually GO to backyard breeders. I am just trying to make people see the other side of the coin. I ended up rescuing a pup from a high kill shelter, and had the pup transported here. but not before I got totally disenchanted with the rules and "standards" of some rescues. I suppose the shelter i went through has easier rules since anything is better than dead, but is that all, us as a family is "worth" having? I LOVE Boone with all my heart, but do you see where i am going with this? I did not go through a breeder, we wanted to rescue, BUT had I gone that route, i am sure I would have had trouble finding one to let me have one of their pups. I am not trying to be argumentative at all...just trying to make people see the plight of individuals that may not be "perfect" in the eyes of breeders and/or some rescues. And...I have to throw this in here, since it is on the tip of my tongue yet difficult for some to hear, Golden Retriever rescues (and purebreed rescues in general) are really on the top of the list when it comes to these rules and regulations and are seen to many as hoytee toytee (spell check please). 

OK...coming off my soapbox now. I am sure I will get many rebutals, but i had to get it off my chest.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I don't fail to take that into account actually I said it at least twice.... I can only speak to the area that I live in.... Northern New England...where rentals are hard to find... and honestly I speak from experience of when I was a renter and how difficult it was to find a rental that would allow larger dogs and when you found them they were prohibitively expensive....
> 
> Megora I have a contract that states all puppies must come back to me if the family can't keep them... but honestly I can't run a boarding kennel. If I take back a puppy I am generally going to find them a home. I have a full house here and by contract I take all pups back but boarding over the long term is just not something that I can do. If I take a puppy back I will be looking for a home for them... Bing is the exception due to the health issues but otherwise we would have placed him in another home.
> 
> ...


Fair enough....  

I was going to point out that our collie came from a broken home (meaning the guy lost his job and moved the family out east, and the collie was the odd man out), that when you have an economy like todays, everyone is going day to day worrying about what they are going to do if they gosh forbid lose their great job. It goes beyond somebody dumping the dog just because rent is ridiculous (either too expensive or too far away from the job).


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

golden999 i'm not rich actually the other way around i'm on the pension and don't get much money at all. In saying that i put money aside each pay day to get my dog. I brought my dog Shelley from a registered breeder who did all the clearances. So stop using the i'm poor as an excuse. If you really want a healthy dog you will save up for one no matter how long it took. 
My parents brought Einstein my male golden when i was 14 years old i still have hime today his 12 years old. Both my dogs came from registered breeders they did clearances. To me my dogs come first i buy what they need first before myself.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm totally hijacking the original topic. Cubbysan, thank you dear :smooch:

I feel very fortunate. I moved into this house 6-7 years ago. I'd like to be here til the walls fall down  I'm 5 minutes from work (very good job and I can work from home when I need to), 10 minutes from my vet, and one block away from a dog daycare. I have a large yard, nice enough neighbors, a wonderful landlady. I live at the very end of a dead end road with a police station at the end of my block. All this with an outhouse and a chicken coop too  I've never felt more in control of my life. 

Sometimes it's good to look further than paper and stereotypes.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

GoldenLover84 said:


> The landlord knows, and has met both dogs and likes them.
> 
> Reece came from a bad home where she was locked outside in a car for long periods of time in the hot sun, beaten upon daily and was doomed for certain death.
> 
> ...


Was Reece owned by an Ontario resident in August 2005? If so, she is not illegal. She is grandfathered - and only restricted. And it sounds to me like you are abiding by the "restricted dog" guidelines by spaying, muzzling and leashing her.

Bravo to you for rescuing her. 

From the law:
Individuals who already own pit bulls will be able to keep them, provided they comply with requirements set out in the amendments and the regulations. 
Pit bulls kept legally after the ban will be known as "grandfathered" or restricted pit bulls. 
In order for a pit bull to qualify as a "grandfathered" or restricted pit bull, it must be: 

Owned by an Ontario resident on August 29, 2005., or
Born in Ontario within 90 days after August 29, 2005.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sweet Girl said:


> Was Reece owned by an Ontario resident in August 2005? If so, she is not illegal. She is grandfathered - and only restricted. And it sounds to me like you are abiding by the "restricted dog" guidelines by spaying, muzzling and leashing her.
> 
> Bravo to you for rescuing her.
> 
> ...


She wasn't born until 2007 at the earliest.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> She wasn't born until 2007 at the earliest.


What do you think should have been done with her?


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Bender said:


> What exactly to you is 'excessive' as far as fees? Conditions?
> 
> The rescue I foster with is more expensive than some, but it covers mainly vet fees towards THAT dog's care - spay, microchip and shots. All of which would cost the private person with a free dog double the price of adoption. So regardless of if the dog was free, or $400, the RESPONSIBLE owner would have that money before they got a dog, at the very least, to pay for some of the costs up front ($400 here would be the basic puppy shots, not microchip or spay - to get a 'free' dog and do the same would be around the $700-$1000 mark).


 It was a while ago, but I think my dog's basic shots were only around $100 a visit times two visits in separate months when he was a small puppy. Granted, he'd already received his first round of shots before I got him. It probably to some degree depends on where you go -- people like me who are cost conscious will probably tend to seek out no-frills (but perfectly adequate) vets.

Anyhow, I think a lot of folks getting an adult dog would just figure the puppy stuff had been taken care of when the dog was a puppy and the wouldn't be sort of retroactively charged for it. Basically, if you miss out on the dog's companionship during those years, you don't have to pay the cost of those years -- presumably their old owner took care of it, or an organization like a rescue that is presumably charitable and non-profit, likely donation based, subsidizes playing catchup on that stuff to help find their dogs homes and let the new owners spend their money on other start up costs involved with dog ownership.


Bender said:


> Conditions - they expect the adoptive home to keep in contact with updates. And to be responsible dog owners. Take training if required for that dog. If they don't have a fenced yard they get asked if they will allow the dog to run loose or how do they plan to potty the dog. They expect the dog to be returned to them if anything goes wrong and that the dog will be a valued family member and live in the house.


 OK, but those are all added work to verify with the agency and some people don't feel comfortable allowing other people to make on-going judgment calls about their suitability as pet owners (After all, when one's dog is like family, the idea that someone is empowered to swoop in and snatch him away - as someone did to relatives of a family friend for letting their dog play in their fenced-inn yard alone too long on a mild summer's day- is a bit disturbing), and may wish to leave their dog with family or something in the event of their passing. Just a fact of life -- the more restrictions and requirements, especially on-going ones, the fewer people who'll want to do any given thing. Participation tends to be maximized when things are made as easy and as simple as possible.


> keep the dog intact).
> 
> Just sayin'.....


 Don't really see an issue with people doing that, but maybe we shouldn't go there.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sweet Girl said:


> What do you think should have been done with her?


What I think should have been done with her, and what the law is, are an entirely different discussion.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> What I think should have been done with her, and what the law is, are an entirely different discussion.


But why are you discussing it? 

I've seen pictures that she posted of the dog and she looks exactly like the "boxer mix" (it's illegal to adopt pitbulls in certain counties, so some adoption groups get around that law by identifying the dogs as something else, it's either that or euthanizing a perfectly good dog) that my neighbor owns. 

That pitbull mix (which she actually is) is a lot nicer and saner than some companion dogs in this same neighborhood. The beagles next door to her are raging ankle biters - literally. <- I think this also bears mentioning, a coworker's little girl had to go in for plastic surgery to fix her face after she was attacked by a border terrier.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> But why are you discussing it?
> 
> I've seen pictures that she posted of the dog and she looks exactly like the "boxer mix" (it's illegal to adopt pitbulls in certain counties, so some adoption groups get around that law by identifying the dogs as something else, it's either that or euthanizing a perfectly good dog) that my neighbor owns.
> 
> That pitbull mix (which she actually is) is a lot nicer and saner than some companion dogs in this same neighborhood. The beagles next door to her are raging ankle biters - literally. <- I think this also bears mentioning, a coworker's little girl had to go in for plastic surgery to fix her face after she was attacked by a border terrier.


I'm not sure that I really need to outline it, but I replied to GoldenLover84, with the question about "illegally" keeping a pit bull, because of the concern of not being able to stay in housing, which is a concern fo many breeders as regards whether a person can keep a dog or not.
And sorry, but I prefer to follow laws, whether I agree with them or not, because, well, it's the law...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'll expand on that, because I've not addressed the rental issue. I would have no problem selling a puppy to someone who rents, granting that they are what I look for in a home in every other respect. But, if they are renting, I would ask for a statement from the landlord confirming that having a dog is allowed. And if someone thinks that is too invasive, or restrictive, then look elsewhere for a puppy. My concern is that our puppies go to stable, safe homes. I don't want a puppy or dog being hidden from a landlord, or being lied about as something other than what it is. If caught, it could mean the loss of residence, or giving up the puppy/dog. Not a situation that I'm willing to put one of my dogs in. And I don't apologize for that. You won't find my dogs dumped in shelters or being rehomed multiple times.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I would ask for a statement from the landlord confirming that having a dog is allowed.


No... _this_ is fine. Rescue groups and shelters do the same... at least the ones I've looked at. They do not want to give a dog to somebody who does not have a home. 

I guess the pitbull mix situation is something that I understand both sides, simply because I have a neighbor with a great dog. If they had not adopted her and given her a happy life, then it would have been endgame for her. The owners knew that she was a pitbull mix (even though the papers said something else) and adopted her anyway. 

As I said, the law here in our county bans the adoption of pitbulls.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Interestingly, specifying in Ontario that you cannot own a dog or cat (or pets in general) is unenforceable by a landlord. The Tenant Protection Act specifically states that any provision prohibiting animals is immediately void. This stems from service dogs.


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

*Please listen!!!*



Golden999 said:


> Don't really see an issue with people doing that, but maybe we shouldn't go there.


 
YOu don't see a issue with people keeping there dog intact???????Are you serious??????:uhoh: 
First I should say I don't exactly know how this thread is going because i haven't been following but when I say what you just said I need to say this.... your crazy!! 
Now I understand people spayign a little later in life. Like around 18 months or so. I understand and I have nothing against it. 
Want to know something?!?!? When I was 9 years old my parents bought us a Golden Retriever. She was the besat thing that ever happened to me. SHe was a perfectly healthy dog (besides some ocassional hotspots) until October 7th, 2010. My girl got Pyometra - a life threating infection in the uterus of female dogs. There are two ways to treat emergency spay or a medication (can't remember the name, PG can you help me here??). We took my girl to the vet but the vet thgouth we should give her a antibiotic (that I know now does NOTHING) and wait for about 10 or days for her surgery. That same weekend was Canadian thanksgiving and me and family where going away for the weekend. My dad believed the wet and said she would get better. I fought and that Sunday she had her surgery and a DIFFERENT vet. But guess what I lost my baby. She went to Heaven on October 22nd, 2010. 
Now after that if you still say that people shouldn't spay and nuter please tell because I want you to see. Yes I realieze we should spay and nuter because there's to many dogs in shelters, but look at the risk we are putting are females at by letting them have a open heat without breeding them. 
Thank you for listening!!


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## LincolnsMom (Sep 28, 2010)

I did choose to say something but I've erased it because of the tension in this thread. -no offense meant- I think Linc and I will just keep out of this.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Now after that if you still say that people shouldn't spay and nuter please tell because I want you to see. Yes I realieze we should spay and nuter because there's to many dogs in shelters, but look at the risk we are putting are females at by letting them have a open heat without breeding them.


I think the problem that I see is that the woman with the female golden at the beginning of this thread wanted to breed her dog. 

And that's the case with most people I know who leave their dogs unspayed. They are thinking about breeding them at some point. Whether this is somebody who is showing their dog and putting titles on them, or the person next door who thinks it would be fun to have at least one litter from their dog at some point. 

I have an intact male golden and am not convinced that there are any health risks for him and he is not spontaneously causing litters just by being intact. And it's easy to manage an intact golden, especially if they are velcro dogs. Now if he were a beagle or some dog with a running streak, I'd feel differently. 

Female dogs though... it's undeniable that there are definite health risks. And I'm sure they are a LOT happier and comfortable not having to deal with heats. Or er, their owners must be.


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> I think the problem that I see is that the woman with the female golden at the beginning of this thread wanted to breed her dog.
> 
> And that's the case with most people I know who leave their dogs unspayed.


We had absolutely no intentions of breeding my girl at all. There were reason why she wasn't spayed that I really don't feel like going into right now. But mar my word there were no intentions of breeding her and if we knew about pyo before she got sick mark my word she would have spayed. And I can say that honestly because I know about it now and my new girl is spayed. 



Megora said:


> Female dogs though... it's undeniable that there are definite health risks. And I'm sure they are a LOT happier and comfortable not having to deal with heats. Or er, their owners must be.


And I can honestly say that heats didn't bather me that much. Yes it was annoying, but it really didn't bother me much.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> What I think should have been done with her, and what the law is, are an entirely different discussion.


I didn't ask you anything about the law. I just asked you what you think should have been done with Reece.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Braccarius said:


> Interestingly, specifying in Ontario that you cannot own a dog or cat (or pets in general) is unenforceable by a landlord. The Tenant Protection Act specifically states that any provision prohibiting animals is immediately void. This stems from service dogs.


Indeed!! And in Quebec, too. Probably other provinces, as well, but those are the only two I ever needed to look into. 

Also - the pitbull ban in Ontario only covers full-blooded pitbulls. Pitbull mixes are not banned.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sweet Girl said:


> I didn't ask you anything about the law. I just asked you what you think should have been done with Reece.


And I answered you.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> And I answered you.


Ha! So predictable.

Have a good day! :wavey:


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I'll expand on that, because I've not addressed the rental issue. I would have no problem selling a puppy to someone who rents, granting that they are what I look for in a home in every other respect. But, if they are renting, I would ask for a statement from the landlord confirming that having a dog is allowed. And if someone thinks that is too invasive, or restrictive, then look elsewhere for a puppy. My concern is that our puppies go to stable, safe homes. I don't want a puppy or dog being hidden from a landlord, or being lied about as something other than what it is. If caught, it could mean the loss of residence, or giving up the puppy/dog. Not a situation that I'm willing to put one of my dogs in. And I don't apologize for that. You won't find my dogs dumped in shelters or being rehomed multiple times.


I think that is a good and fair policy.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sweet Girl said:


> Ha! So predictable.
> 
> Have a good day! :wavey:


I adressed this as I feel relates to this particular discussion (which has definitely "branched" out.) Turning it into what one thinks should be done with pit bulls, or an individual dog would be a separate discussion, I think. And do I feel it appropriate to say what I think should have been done with Reece? Not really. I won't be baited into it, thanks. 

And, have a good day.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

tessalover said:


> YOu don't see a issue with people keeping there dog intact???????Are you serious??????:uhoh:
> First I should say I don't exactly know how this thread is going because i haven't been following but when I say what you just said I need to say this.... your crazy!!
> Now I understand people spayign a little later in life. Like around 18 months or so. I understand and I have nothing against it.
> Want to know something?!?!? When I was 9 years old my parents bought us a Golden Retriever. She was the besat thing that ever happened to me. SHe was a perfectly healthy dog (besides some ocassional hotspots) until October 7th, 2010. My girl got Pyometra - a life threating infection in the uterus of female dogs. There are two ways to treat emergency spay or a medication (can't remember the name, PG can you help me here??). We took my girl to the vet but the vet thgouth we should give her a antibiotic (that I know now does NOTHING) and wait for about 10 or days for her surgery. That same weekend was Canadian thanksgiving and me and family where going away for the weekend. My dad believed the wet and said she would get better. I fought and that Sunday she had her surgery and a DIFFERENT vet. But guess what I lost my baby. She went to Heaven on October 22nd, 2010.
> ...


 Neutering or spaying is an interruption of the natural life and developmental cycle of a pet. Technically speaking, one might even consider it a form of mutilation. Now, I'm not flatly against it, but its probably not something I'd casually do to a pet unless there were some reason specific to my animal or circumstances (i.e. development of behavioral issues that neutering might fix, having pets of the same species but different genders in the same household that I didn't want to mate, etc.). Since I only have one dog and his behavioral issues predate anything he'd need to be neutered for, I've decided not to ask the vet to chop anything off (Which lets face it, is basically what neutering is). At least with males, I've heard that there are actually health risks associated with both neutering (incontinence late in life being more likely, for one) and leaving intact, so its probably a wash there, or close enough to one.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> Neutering or spaying is an interruption of the natural life and developmental cycle of a pet. Technically speaking, one might even consider it a form of mutilation. Now, I'm not flatly against it, but its probably not something I'd casually do to a pet unless there were some reason specific to my animal or circumstances (i.e. development of behavioral issues that neutering might fix, having pets of the same species but different genders in the same household that I didn't want to mate, etc.). Since I only have one dog and his behavioral issues predate anything he'd need to be neutered for, I've decided not to ask the vet to chop anything off (Which lets face it, is basically what neutering is). At least with males, I've heard that there are actually health risks associated with both neutering (incontinence late in life being more likely, for one) and leaving intact, so its probably a wash there, or close enough to one.


:--keep_silent:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> :--keep_silent:
> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...



You said it, PG!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> :--keep_silent:
> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...


 
Gosh Laura, you made it past 1. I'm really proud of you!: I'm hoping you haven't imploded.


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> Neutering or spaying is an interruption of the natural life and developmental cycle of a pet. Technically speaking, one might even consider it a form of mutilation. Now, I'm not flatly against it, but its probably not something I'd casually do to a pet unless there were some reason specific to my animal or circumstances (i.e. development of behavioral issues that neutering might fix, having pets of the same species but different genders in the same household that I didn't want to mate, etc.). Since I only have one dog and his behavioral issues predate anything he'd need to be neutered for, I've decided not to ask the vet to chop anything off (Which lets face it, is basically what neutering is). At least with males, I've heard that there are actually health risks associated with both neutering (incontinence late in life being more likely, for one) and leaving intact, so its probably a wash there, or close enough to one.


 
Ok You've got me on my edge now...
I have a question if YOUR dog was a femlae would you spay her?? Even if she was a only dog??


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> :--keep_silent:
> 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8...


 
Lol I can't!! Not after my girl! NEVER again will allow somethign like this to happen! It's worng it's horrible!


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

Oh and jsut to add.... when my girl was sick a lot of people on this forum and they will probably say exactly what I am saying. However some can contain them selves, but I will never watch another female die because of a dumb decsion. I live with regret and guilt every day because as much as I tried I couldn't save her!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> Neutering or spaying is an interruption of the natural life and developmental cycle of a pet. Technically speaking, one might even consider it a form of mutilation. Now, I'm not flatly against it, but its probably not something I'd casually do to a pet unless there were some reason specific to my animal or circumstances (i.e. development of behavioral issues that neutering might fix, having pets of the same species but different genders in the same household that I didn't want to mate, etc.). Since I only have one dog and his behavioral issues predate anything he'd need to be neutered for, I've decided not to ask the vet to chop anything off (Which lets face it, is basically what neutering is). At least with males, I've heard that there are actually health risks associated with both neutering (incontinence late in life being more likely, for one) and leaving intact, so its probably a wash there, or close enough to one.


 

I counted to ten. Three times. Didn't work. :no: This is ill-informed, at best. First, no one "casually" alters their pets. Look at the myriad of postings here on this forum alone, and you'll see how pet owners fret about it. Calling it "mutilation" is way over the top, IMO. And I'm sure that most vets would take issue with your reference to neutering as "chopping anything off." (Sounds like you are perhaps anthropomorphising just a bit...) Where you are_ somewhat_ correct re: health risks associated with neutering is when it is done TOO EARLY. However, not neutering presents more health risks, as well as _greatly_ increasing the chances of unwanted litters. I don't consider it a "wash" at all. As for spaying bitches, which you seemingly have less issue with (my guess would be that you are male...) there are _far _greater dangers associated with not spaying - every time a female has an open season (one in which she is not bred) the uterus is being bombarded with progesterone, and greatly increases her chances of a pyometra (and mammary cancers), which is LIFE THREATENING, and requires spaying to save the dog's life, if she is stable enough to survive the surgery. "Interrupting the natural life and developmental cycle of a pet"? _Hardly. Pets are not meant to be bred the minute they are capable of doing so, every cycle until they are no longer able to, like wild canids._
NO one, Golden999, takes this lightly, and frankly, I find your rhetoric offensive and counterproductive -perhaps frightening caring pet owners away from making a carefully thought out decision as to what really IS best for their dog. 

I hope that the "behavioral issues" that "predate" what you feel neutering "might have fixed" are not replaced by those that can, in fact, appear later in life in a mature, intact male, at which time altering may not be useful.


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I counted to ten. Three times. Didn't work. :no: This is ill-informed, at best. First, no one "casually" alters their pets. Look at the myriad of postings here on this forum alone, and you'll see how pet owners fret about it. Calling it "mutilation" is way over the top, IMO. And I'm sure that most vets would take issue with your reference to neutering as "chopping anything off." (Sounds like you are perhaps anthropomorphising just a bit...) Where you are_ somewhat_ correct re: health risks associated with neutering is when it is done TOO EARLY. However, not neutering presents more health risks, as well as _greatly_ increasing the chances of unwanted litters. I don't consider it a "wash" at all. As for spaying bitches, which you seemingly have less issue with (my guess would be that you are male...) there are _far _greater dangers associated with not spaying - every time a female has an open season (one in which she is not bred) the uterus is being bombarded with progesterone, and greatly increases her chances of a pyometra, which is LIFE THREATENING, and requires spaying to save the dog's life, if she is stable enough to survive the surgery. "Interrupting the natural life and developmental cycle of a pet"? _Hardly. Pets are not meant to be bred the minute they are capable of doing so, every cycle until they are no longer able to, like wild canids._
> NO one, Golden999, takes this lightly, and frankly, I find your rhetoric offensive and counterproductive -perhaps frightening caring pet owners away from making a carefully thought out decision as to what really IS best for their dog.
> 
> I hope that the "behavioral issues" that "predate" what you feel neutering "might have fixed" are not replaced by those that can, in fact, appear later in life in a mature, intact male, at which time altering may not be useful.


 
Thank you PG! Golden999, please please change your mind. I'll be honest I can't say anything about neutering because I have no clue. But spaying anyone to leave a famale to have a open season with not being breed is crazy... Maybe this might change your mind.... http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ggest-decision-i-will-ever-make-has-made.html . Read it don't skip one thing. 

Also I would like to know your answer to my questions..... would you spay a female if you could save her life from Pyo or anythign else? And would you still spay her if she was the only dog in the house??


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## typercy (Jan 17, 2011)

inge said:


> I agree with the other posters...and frankly: why do you want to breed him?I've been asked several times if Tess was available for breeding, because she is a very beautiful dog and has a terrific temperament. But no: I had her spayed, because I believe that breeding is something for people who know what they are doing, I really believe in breedings for the betterment of the breed, not just because you have a nice dog...and I am not that knowledgable...


 
Well said. Completely agree.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Neutering or spaying is an interruption of the natural life and developmental cycle of a pet. Technically speaking, one might even consider it a form of mutilation.


While I somewhat agree that neutering (spaying is a different matter) my guy is something I do not take lightly and don't plan on doing unless there is a reason to do so... because it is a surgery. I do _not_ consider it a form of mutilation or an interuption of the natural life of the pet. 

Our collie was neutered at 2 and he's about as happy and complete as our golden. He was not mutilated. His life was not interupted and other than blowing his coat in a huge way, he had no ill effects. 

The same thing was true of our golden who was neutered at age 10 for health reasons (burst fatty tumor on the scrotum). I'm not sure how much it would have cost when he was younger, but the emergancy cost upwards of $700. That was partly because of his age and the extra care necessary. When you talk about mutilation, that burst tumor meant our golden's long trousers were stained bright red and the grass outside where he was when it happened had pools of blood. Not exactly the most pleasant thing to discover on a Sunday morning. Not saying that would have been prevented had he been neutered, as the tumor was on the sack part which normally is left behind. 

On a more mundane basis, something to keep in mind, if you do not choose to neuter your male golden, you need to keep an eye for any changes to that area (size, color, growths) and you need to talk to your vet about having his prostate checked, especially as he gets older. 

That was something we did with past goldens, and its a reality we face with Jacks as he "grows up".


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## LilMissSunshine (Jan 23, 2011)

I really do wish dog breeding was as simple as lady and the tramp.

you know, girl dog, boy dog. healthy beautiful perfect puppies which you can keep all of them or find a loving home for them because every dog in the world has a loving home

but I don't live in a disney movie. and in reality, its very complicated, very risky..and not every dog is perfectly healthy and made for the perfect home


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

tessalover said:


> Also I would like to know your answer to my questions..... would you spay a female if you could save her life from Pyo or anythign else? And would you still spay her if she was the only dog in the house??


 Don't know, would have to look into all the pros and cons for spaying female dogs when and if I were to get one. One dog at a time is about all I can handle, and my dog is still young (and male), so I'm probably 10-12 years (assuming he lives an average life span) away from potentially looking for another dog, and even at that point, it could be another male. So, hard to say, really.


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## tessalover (Nov 29, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> Don't know, would have to look into all the pros and cons for spaying female dogs when and if I were to get one. One dog at a time is about all I can handle, and my dog is still young (and male), so I'm probably 10-12 years (assuming he lives an average life span) away from potentially looking for another dog, and even at that point, it could be another male. So, hard to say, really.


 
If you had a female and looked at the pros and cons of spaying and you figuired it was best not to spay her even with Pyo being there?? You would realy want to risk that?? Want to see a picture of a pyo victim?? I'm not trying to be nasty or mean or anything I just want you to understand this. And I know that a person who hasn't experienced pyo first hand will never understand. I hope one day if you have a female you are able to realieze that spay her is best because her life can be gone with every open heat. And like I said I encourage you to read that thread that I posted the link to and maybe you'll understand why I'm saying what I'm saying.


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## West (Jul 9, 2010)

Wow, this thread has heated up even more while I was on holidays.

Tessalover, I understand what you are going through. And it seems only logical to spay a female that's not going to be bred. It's best for her health, overall. In fact, having worked as a volunteer for several rescues, I'm pro spaying before the first heat to reduce the possibility of mamary tumors too. Pyo is ugly and it kills fast. If you are not properly informed by a vet, you can miss the symptoms or think they are less urgent, and we all know how that ends. So if someone chooses not to spay, they should be very alert and informed about the risks. It doesn't happen to all unspayed bitches, of course, but it is life-threatening and caution is vital. If I had a female, I'd spay her too. Too risky for me. Having a male dog, I'll wait. But he'll be neutered as soon as I feel it's the right time and even before if anything comes up.

I think it's a small miracle that Reece has been rescued and is living a good life, away from torture or suffering. I feel her life is as valuable as any other dog's and I don't care if there's a law that says she should be dead. The problem there, plain to see, is the law and not the dog (or the dog owner, in this case). So, my whole support for Reece and her humans. If someone really believes that a dog should be put to death because of its breed or because humans arbitrary decided that it's illegal to own it, that is a person I'll never be able to respect, as our values are completely different.


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