# 14 Weeks Dominance Issues (w/toddler)



## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Bump for help.

Sorry I can't give you any advice, but I'm sure someone else can.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Keep in mind that if you keep correcting the growl, you'll likely end up with a dog that appears to snap or bite w/o any warning whatsoever. He's communicating that he's uncomfortable with *something* when he growls. Better to get to the bottom of that and change his mind than just attempt to "correct" the symptom, which is the growl. The growl isn't the problem - what's causing it IS.

I think working with a trainer privately is a great idea, so long as it's not a heavily correction-based trainer. In my experience, treating aggression with aggression (scruff shakes, alpha rolls, etc.) will eventually backfire and in the interim, it's terribly erosive to the dog/owner relationship.

I also disagree with taking him out of obedience. If he appears to be "confusing" sit/down with stand/stay than it just means he needs more practice. Generally, we tend to practice sits and downs most often. The trick for a "pet dog" in a "show home" is to spend at least as much time working stand and stand/stay. Make it part of your NILIF program; sometimes he sits for what he wants, sometimes he stands.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

Thanks for the bump 

We do socialize him, take him to parks and PetSmart, and he's a real hit with the kids around here. I did speak with the breeder, her tips were things we already adopt (make sure he is crated enough, don't spoil him, etc.) No tug of war games or kids torturing him or anything like that, we are a very mellow family and treat him with love (but are firm when required and never EVER let him do something he should not and always follow through on commands no matter how simple they are.)

I think the biggest trend with him we notice is if he is in his crate sleeping or on the floor sleeping or any other type of sleeping, he gets funny. All of his growling sessions other than one with our 11 year old and the couch chewing... have been related to him saying *"Don't Mess With Me When I Sleep!!!!"* There is no resource guarding however of toys or food, we have the girls take his food away and toys away and give back often, with lots of touching while eating and and playing. The sleep thing, we have also done rubbing and loving during sleep... but of course not as much as food/toys because he's sleeping.




FlyingQuizini said:


> Keep in mind that if you keep correcting the growl, you'll likely end up with a dog that appears to snap or bite w/o any warning whatsoever. He's communicating that he's uncomfortable with *something* when he growls. Better to get to the bottom of that and change his mind than just attempt to "correct" the symptom, which is the growl. The growl isn't the problem - what's causing it IS.
> 
> I think working with a trainer privately is a great idea, so long as it's not a heavily correction-based trainer. In my experience, treating aggression with aggression (scruff shakes, alpha rolls, etc.) will eventually backfire and in the interim, it's terribly erosive to the dog/owner relationship.
> 
> I also disagree with taking him out of obedience. If he appears to be "confusing" sit/down with stand/stay than it just means he needs more practice. Generally, we tend to practice sits and downs most often. The trick for a "pet dog" in a "show home" is to spend at least as much time working stand and stand/stay. Make it part of your NILIF program; sometimes he sits for what he wants, sometimes he stands.




_Keep in mind that if you keep correcting the growl, you'll likely end up with a dog that appears to snap or bite w/o any warning whatsoever_

Our concern also



_
The growl isn't the problem - what's causing it IS._

Yes!



_I think working with a trainer privately is a great idea, so long as it's not a heavily correction-based trainer. In my experience, treating aggression with aggression (scruff shakes, alpha rolls, etc.) will eventually backfire and in the interim, it's terribly erosive to the dog/owner relationship._

Yes, we don't want him to get fearful, we like positive methods - some correction is good but harsh isn't our style and alpha rolls are for serious serious infractions. Like if he growled then bit... then we might roll him.




_I also disagree with taking him out of obedience. If he appears to be "confusing" sit/down with stand/stay than it just means he needs more practice. _

We were wondering this as well. I mean, some dogs learn so many commands.. why can't he know mutliple things?

_

The trick for a "pet dog" in a "show home" is to spend at least as much time working stand and stand/stay. Make it part of your NILIF program; sometimes he sits for what he wants, sometimes he stands.
_
Ok, makes sense to me. Thanks btw for the advice, it's great advice.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*Yes, we don't want him to get fearful, we like positive methods - some correction is good but harsh isn't our style and alpha rolls are for serious serious infractions. Like if he growled then bit... then we might roll him.*

ACK! That would be the WORST possible time to roll him! Dogs DO NOT ROLL OTHER DOGS as a way of making them submit. The dog who submits is doing so WILLINGLY as a way to diffuse the aggressive situation. Humans trying to "prove something" when they roll a dog are making a horrible mistake. You will teach your dog to be afraid of you and may well get bitten in the moment, as your "aggressive outburst" (in the eyes of the dog) prompts the dog to feel the need to defend himself.

If the issues are mostly around sleeping times, make a habit of clapping or making some other noise to sort of startle him awake (from a distance) and as soon as his eyes are open, toss a wonderful treat to him. Then you're gradually teaching him that being suddenly awoken is actually a good thing, not something to get grumpy about.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*There is no resource guarding however of toys or food, we have the girls take his food away and toys away and give back often, with lots of touching while eating and and playing.*

Just a suggestion, but if all you do is TAKE food and toys, he could at some point decide he's tired of you taking his stuff. Rather than just dive in and take his stuff, make a point to trade him a treat for what you're taking and then give what you took back to him. Same with if you feel the need to reach into his bowl while he's eating -- as you reach in, leave behind something wonderful, like a piece of chicken, etc.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

We've never alpha rolled Rummy and would not. 



> _we have the girls take his food away and toys away and *give back often*_


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I vote go-go-go! to obedience class...speak with the instructor before the class starts.... Let them know why you will be substituting stands and stand stays for the sits. Ask for advice on teaching focus...

There is no reason not to go and every reason to go!

Love Stephanie's advice to teach a happy wake up!


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

Yes, that was a good idea. I don't want to give the impression that we have a second Cujo in the making. Most of the time the girls and Rummy get along like pals which I am sure is part of the problem with the way he perceives them. His peers. 

He's done this only a few times but we want to correct it before it becomes a bigger problem. 99/100 times he is woken up he blinks at you, but even that 1 is too many. 

He's a great dog in so many other respects, just have to nip this one problem which I am confident that we can do.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I'm confused. Did I miss something? Are ReleaseTheHounds and RummysMum the same person, or do they both just own Rummy?


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

We're married. We also both own Rummy. We also both have separate bodies with our own organs.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Ah. I got confused when one person posted and then someone else took up the thread like nothing happened.

Good luck with Rummy! Sounds fun.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

LOL I was confused too...


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

He's a great dog. He just doesn't like being woken up. I have no idea where he gets it from

:uhoh:


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

missmarstar said:


> LOL I was confused too...



Glad I wasn't the only one. I was responded to as if my question was completely brainless, but I was merely trying to clear things up for myself.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> He's a great dog. He just doesn't like being woken up. I have no idea where he gets it from
> 
> :uhoh:



Wanna trade? Mine likes to wake up way too **** early in the morning when all I wanna do is sleep....


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

Sorry, I'm just a bit of a jerk. I don't mean it though. My father wasn't properly screened before he was bred.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> Sorry, I'm just a bit of a jerk. I don't mean it though. My father wasn't properly screened before he was bred.


No big deal. I can be quite a ***** myself (although I guess I can say bitch here, since... well, many of us own bitches), so I understand.


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## kjarv24 (Nov 7, 2008)

I've got a 15week old Golden Pup "JAKE" & a 1 1/2yr old toddler "NOAH".
While Jake is always more than Willing to share his toys, he does like his alone time to take naps or just sit and relax and chew on his bully stick or bone. He doesn't growl if Noah or any of us is bothering him, But I could see how that would be the next step if I hadnt intervened RIGHT when I noticed it. I think its hard for any pup living in a busy house, they like to sleep and relax a lot or at least Jake does  & having a toddler screaming, playing, running by, trying to wake them up, on top of tv going, us talking can be VERY annoying & frustrating for them. I don't think their patience has really set in yet with things, so you have to keep things with in their bounds & work around them. It's our job I think to build their patience.
I can always tell when Jake is at his point where he is getting grumpy and really needs that nap without being woken up, So he is taken to his crate to get his nap & when he wakes up he's ready to go. 
I do think that a dog/puppy should be able to deal with being woken up by adults and children alike without any kind of aggression! 100% So, I take my son to jake, I Wake Jake up and then my son will pet and love on him & Jake doesn't mind a bit. I will never allow My son to go wake Jake up by himself, so If Jakes is napping and my son is showing interest that he wants to mess with Jake He goes up in his high chair or we go find something we both can do for a bit. Maybe you can do something similar with your daughters, Wake Rummy up, have your girls praise him and them give him a treat??? 
I can't be of any help with the Toy thing, Jake and Noah play a little game with Jakes toys & they have a blast. I have given Jake a couple of noahs toys that I know are safe for JAKE to chew play with, & they go up in his toy box...He has never attempted to chew on Noahs toys because of this. Maybe thats a bad Idea not sure, but it seems to work great for them...Also teaches my son to share.
I guess my point is when you see Rummy having his nap time or alone time let him have it, work on with both your girls slowly invading his space with praise and treats. Show him it isn't a bad thing, but you also have to be watchful that the growling incidents aren't allowed to happen for the safety of your girls, & to teach Rummy. 
We've had one incident with Noah and Jake, Jake was fast aasleep and Noah was trying to use Jake as a step to get up onto a chair...Jake Looked up quickly as I know he was in pain, Growled and then once he seen who it was he almost had this "I'm sorry" look to him. I Got Noah off from Jake told Noah "NO" and he was taken away from the situation, Jake was not yelled at or punished in any way...He was taken to his crate and was happy to do so, took his nap and was just fine afterwards. So, that was the moment we knew we couldn't let things like this happen, and now I keep an eye on Jakes mood, He goes to his crate or noah up in his highchair when Jake need some alone time he gets it. 
Maybe you can get some sort of help through my ramblings? lol
I do hope things get better for you guys, I would be nervous to.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> He's a great dog. He just doesn't like being woken up. I have no idea where he gets it from
> 
> :uhoh:



:bigangel: I'm as sweet as an angel when you wake me up, I swear!!

Ya, RTH is my husband.

Lots of fantastic advice here. I LOVE the idea of waking him up with treats, I don't know why we didn't think of that but... it's PERFECT. He is very food driven and treats have been amazing with his learning.

He is an amazing dog. At 14 weeks old I expected him to be very naughty and he's just not. He loves the kids and he loves everyone, but we also see the seriousness of this growling thing, and the fact that despite efforts it's getting worse, gotta stop it now!

So onward to classes and treats while he's sleeping! We will try private ones first as he does go to Conformation class with other dogs once a week so that's good for socialization, and then after that we can take on the regular classes. I know the private trainer in our area was highly recommended by somebody's problem lab - great with the parents horrible with children - and now the lab is fantastic with the kids as the trainer works with the kids during the sessions, not the parents.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

If it makes you feel any better, at that age Flora was still growling at me and snapping if I approached her when she had a marrow bone. I did minimal work with her - just sat beside her when she chewed on it, held it when she chewed - and now she'll actually bring me the **** things when she's chewing on them so I can hold it. No growling, no snapping, nothing.

I think most of these things, if addressed early, will go away with the proper correction. Rummy's going to be totally fine.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't want to sound too harsh, but I would see this as a temperament fault, and from what you have said it sounds genetic rather than environmental, although something may have happened when he was with his litter. If you can not find an environmental cause for his growling, and even if you do, I question whether he will be a suitable candidate for a stud dog. 

I would not want to pass genes that produce temperaments that are less than ideal on to puppies that have owners that are less dedicated and smart about training then you are.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Take Quizini's advice. A dog who acts aggressive when he's woken up isn't being "dominant" or otherwise angry. He's probably confused and intimidated, and he's simply reacting. Looking, as Quizini has suggested, to reassure him at the root cause will end the behavior without creating new problems.

Speaking as somebody who used to use harsher methods like the scruff shake and the alpha roll, my experience (and Quizini's articulate arguments) have converted me completely. Challenging fear aggression with your own aggression just makes the dog more fearful and desperate. You can use those techniques to quash unwanted aggressive behavior in the short term, but you end up creating potentially dangerous long term problems.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Sounds like he is testing you. It is worrisome, though, especially the snapping at your little girl. Have you talked to your breeder about it? It seems to me there has been a lot of posts lately about growling/snapping puppies. Kind of scary. Hopefully you can get it under control.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

kdmarsh said:


> If it makes you feel any better, at that age Flora was still growling at me and snapping if I approached her when she had a marrow bone. I did minimal work with her - just sat beside her when she chewed on it, held it when she chewed - and now she'll actually bring me the **** things when she's chewing on them so I can hold it. No growling, no snapping, nothing.
> 
> I think most of these things, if addressed early, will go away with the proper correction. Rummy's going to be totally fine.


Oh, see that's what I love to hear, makes us feel better... knowing somebody else had an issue with growling and so easily solved. While it can become serious, it sure doesn't have to be if it's handled right at an early age. 





tippykayak said:


> Take Quizini's advice. A dog who acts aggressive when he's woken up isn't being "dominant" or otherwise angry. He's probably confused and intimidated, and he's simply reacting. Looking, as Quizini has suggested, to reassure him at the root cause will end the behavior without creating new problems.
> 
> Speaking as somebody who used to use harsher methods like the scruff shake and the alpha roll, my experience (and Quizini's articulate arguments) have converted me completely. Challenging fear aggression with your own aggression just makes the dog more fearful and desperate. You can use those techniques to quash unwanted aggressive behavior in the short term, but you end up creating potentially dangerous long term problems.


I've had some reputable people suggest the scruff and shake method, and I have to agree, I do wonder if it would compound aggression or create fear issues. I hear fear issues are very bad when there are children in the family. Once a dog is fearful, that's it. 

We've never alpha rolled him, though if he were to growl and then bite a bad bite, I might be inclined to use it... my husband is "no way" and I'm not quite sure. If he were to ever bite, how do I handle that? It *could* happen even though I doubt it (hence me posting) and I need to be prepared for that. I mean, right now I REALLY doubt he would, he is a lover and not a dominant dog, he doesn't even play growl or play nip... or even jump! He licks the kids feet, in fact he is very licky. 





my4goldens said:


> Sounds like he is testing you. It is worrisome, though, especially the snapping at your little girl. Have you talked to your breeder about it? It seems to me there has been a lot of posts lately about growling/snapping puppies. Kind of scary. Hopefully you can get it under control.


Yes, we have spoken with the breeder, she just verified all the methods we have currently been using (no spoiling, working for reward, and not freely running about the house.) She stated he views the kids as equals and littermates, and that is one of the core issues. This is of course normal, he just hasn't been taught yet.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand Rummy, he has a very very gentle sweet nature and is an all around amazing puppy. Everyone comments about how well behaved he is and what a quality puppy he is. One glance at how he is and how he acts is proof that he is well bred, not just looks but in temperment. He's not an "agressive" dog by any stretch of the imagination, he just views the kids as littermates despite our best efforts and likes to be left alone when sleeping. If I were sleeping I wouldn't want a perky little 3 year old trying to pet me either. He just needs to know his place and that at no time is he ever allowed to correct the kids.

Thanks for the great advice, going to start working with him on treats during sleepy time. I have a hunch between that and private lessons we will have it corrected soon.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Well, keep in mind, the fact that he's growling/snapping when awoken abruptly does speak to a temperament issue to some degree. Not that it can't be corrected with proper training, but as a comparison, I've accidentally awoken Quiz by rolling my desk chair over his long tail feathers (by not knowing he was sleeping behind my chair) and he's jumped to his feet in a startle w/o so much as a grumble. 

The fact that such a young puppy is choosing to launch himself into the offensive is a bit concerning and should be taken into consideration as he grows up. If he displays this tactic in other areas of his life as he gets older, I personally would not consider him to be a candidate for breeding - no matter how structurally sound or otherwise "gorgeous" he turns out to be. 

As to how to handle a bite incident, frankly, once he's bitten, it's really too late to do anything productive. My suggestion would be to *calmly* put him in his crate so that you have time to inspect any bite marks and decompress from the shock of your dog having bitten. Again, any alpha rolling, scruff shaking or other punitive methods will serve to make matters worse.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

> Not that it can't be corrected with proper training, but as a comparison, I've accidentally awoken Quiz by rolling my desk chair over his long tail feathers (by not knowing he was sleeping behind my chair) and he's jumped to his feet in a startle w/o so much as a grumble.


I understand what you're saying and if he was not mentally "sound" by the time he was of breeding age he would not be bred. It's not the reason why we bought him and if he ended up not being breeding material then that would be ok by me.

Keep in mind though, that i have stepped on him by mistake while he was sleeping and he just blinked at me. Also, this is not a consistent behaviour as of yet and is still very much an anomaly. I think this is WHO is waking him rather than simply not liking being disturbed. 

Our concern here is to have a safe environment both for Rummy and the kids. I'm not worried at this time about the breeding. That's a long ways away and can be evaluated later.

I appreciate the help and we're going to be implementing some of your suggestions.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

*nod* Rummy.. I've woken him many many times, he doesn't care. If a puppy gets disturbed by another puppy/sibling when they did not wish to be disturbed, the reaction would be the same.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's worth mentioning that there are about twenty things kids naturally do around a puppy that are either scary or too exciting for the dog. My five-year-old niece is receiving at least as much training as the twenty-week-old puppy my sister and brother-in-law when we got Jax. He's _remarkably_ even tempered, which was the overwhelmingly important criterion in choosing him from the litter, but even so, she accidentally intimidated him a few times in those first couple of days they had him home.

Puppies, for obvious reasons, don't like screaming miniature humans coming at them for a hug. Please don't take this the wrong way, but is there some merit to exploring the idea of training the kids more too?


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> It's worth mentioning that there are about twenty things kids naturally do around a puppy that are either scary or too exciting for the dog. My five-year-old niece is receiving at least as much training as the twenty-week-old puppy my sister and brother-in-law when we got Jax. He's _remarkably_ even tempered, which was the overwhelmingly important criterion in choosing him from the litter, but even so, she accidentally intimidated him a few times in those first couple of days they had him home.
> 
> Puppies, for obvious reasons, don't like screaming miniature humans coming at them for a hug. Please don't take this the wrong way, but is there some merit to exploring the idea of training the kids more too?


Not taken the wrong way at all.  Well, they never hug him, we teach them that hugs are scary to dogs. 

It's safe to say we are very laid back family... both of our children are girls not roudy boys, and other than being talkative, they aren't the hyper run around type. When the girls have had friends over, I cannot get over how high strung some of them are.

They don't wrestle with him or play tug of war ever, and no screaming at him or acting like monsters *shudder.* They play fetch but never rip a toy from his mouth, they say "Give" and he delivers the ball or toy to them in hand. There is no ear pulling or putting fingers up his nose or riding him like a horse. They respect him as a living creature.

Hannah the 3 year old can be noisy at times and that is her and her personality, and her being chatty won't ever stop, from the moment she wakes up until the moment she falls asleep, she's chatting. He has never once seemed even slightly bothered by noise or chit chat. Since we have gotten Rummy Hannah has learned not to for example stomp or dance near him so he doesn't get stepped on or injured. Never has she injured him or stepped on him, but we didn't want that to arise. We are firm but loving parents, not the "do whatever you want you are kids" type of parents. 

The growling has happened when Hannah has wanted to pet him during rest or sleep, and by pet I mean very gently, not poke or prod, but softly touch, or even a simple going near the crate during sleep. She loves Rummy, and thinks of him as her buddy, and of course she doesn't understand that he's napping and wants to be alone, but we are working on that, too. 

The other growl was when Emma our 11 year old caught him chewing the couch so she gave him his command, and he didn't like being told what to do by her, I heard the correction then the subsequent growl and looked up and saw him snap the air near her hand. I was not more than 3 feet away. The couch btw has a hole in it from that little indecent. He doesn't chew furniture often, because we stop it the moment it starts.

Generally, he lays at their feet stretched out on his side and licks them. Unlike other puppies, he doesn't jump or nip or any other dominant type of thing. He never shows fear around them and really loves to play ball and fetch with the girls in the back yard.

They ARE girls, there are tears, there are naughty times, there are good days and bad days and good moods and foul ones, they are children of course and this is why we have a Golden Retriever and not a Rottie, but overall, I'm very proud of how they respect Rummy as a living being and not as a stuffed toy. We wouldn't tolerate anything less.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Food for thought from the grumpy old guy.

In life there is a proper time and place for everything. Your home may be the right place for a Golden Retriever, but now may not be the right TIME for a Golden Retriever. 

Children, especially Toddlers, require a tremendous amount of supervision and place high demands on the available time resources of the adults in a home. Once they arrive, you're committed for life and there is no going back. 

Puppies are also large consumers of available time. The majority of homes today simply don't have enough available time to do a thorough complete job of teaching and supervising a toddler, an older child and puppy at the same time. There just isn't enough waking hours in a day to cover it all, so someone along the way is going to get short changed. 

I would venture to say that most breeders won't place a puppy in a home with toddlers for the reasons you're experiencing now. You may want to consider returning the puppy in favor of an older, trained dog.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

I work rotating continental shift so I am home over half the month. I don't believe that anyone is being shortchanged. Our entire family essentially spends all our time together in the basement. 

What we have are a few isolated incidents where Rummy does not like being woken up and one instance where he "objected" to being corrected by our 11 year old. I don't want to give the impression that I live in a madhouse of chaos. Rummy is exceptionally well behaved in all other categories. He has a few issues which we've started to work on as well as bringing in a private trainer starting on Tuesday.

We tried the suggestion yesterday of waking him up and giving him treats, and had Hannah try it as well. Went very well and I notice that when he is sleeping when anyone walks by him he will lift his head now as his tail wags (waiting for a treat I'm guessing )

I don't want to appear like one of those people that asks for help and then turns on everyone, I appreciate the comments and suggestions and we're applying many of them. Returning Rummy however is not in our plans.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> Food for thought from the grumpy old guy.
> 
> In life there is a proper time and place for everything. Your home may be the right place for a Golden Retriever, but now may not be the right TIME for a Golden Retriever.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but because I'm a stay at home mom and my husband is a shift worker, the kids and Rummy get a lot of attention and time spent is not an issue. I'd venture a guess to say it's far easier having 2 kids and a dog than it is having 3 or 4 kids let alone both parents working. To top it off I keep a very clean home and we cook healthy meals and help with the little things like homework and family fun time. My husband and I get a sitter about once or twice a year tops, we do EVERYTHING as a family and are very close with the kids and Rummy. And showing him is going to be a very enjoyable hobby for me.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

Okay, definitely follow Stephanie (Flying Quizini)'s advice: she really knows what she is talking about. I have a number of thoughts to add along to what she said: 

1) I show my girl in obedience, agility and tracking. And she had some serious fear based issues when she was a puppy. It took SOOO much time, energy, and money for her to be "safe" and even now, as a three year old, I watch her constantly. We've met with "regular" behaviorists and veterinary behaviorists- and one of the things that came out of those meetings is that the behavior may go dormant for years even, but you don't really ever eliminate the tendency to have that behavior. So you have to be "on watch" even if you think the behavior is gone. 
2) Please do not put him in a show environment until you have a complete handle on this behavior. I don't know if you have shown before or even been to shows- but they are such stressful environments for dogs, especially young dogs, that you may aggravate behavior. 
3) You should read "Control Unleashed" (Leslie McDermott) and "Click to Calm" (Karen Pryor) and "The Cautious Canine" (Patricia McConnell). All use positive methods and are available through Amazon. 
4) There is absolutely no such thing as too much supervision between puppies and kids. You should consider leashing Rummy to the adult home at the time. He can't get at the couch then, so your 11 year old isn't trying to correct the dog. He has to follow you around, so he is working on appropriate behaviors and developing a bond with that adult. Plop him in his crate when you need a break or he needs a nap. 
5) Kids need to be taught not to mess with dogs when they are sleeping. Period. You may want Rummy to be okay to be patted, scratched, danced on, whatever when he has just been woken up- but until you have been implementing Stephanie's "happy wake up program" for a long time, he needs to be left alone when he is sleeping. Plus, your little girl may be okay patting her sleeping puppy, but I can't guarantee she'd be okay if she patted/woke up my grumpy old man, for example. You don't know what other people's dogs will do, and it's an important lesson for kids to learn. 
6) His crate needs to be a safe haven for him. While you guys have your household all figured out, it sounds pretty overwhelming for a puppy. His crate should be somewhere quiet, where your girls do not go (maybe your bedroom). Try draping a sheet or blanket over half of it to make it more den like. You should, in addition to the "happy wake up game", teach a "happy crate game". We give cookies when they kennel up on command and when they wait to be released from crates. Try looking @ Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD for ideas on happy crate games. 
7) You could meet with a veterinary behaviorist or a regular behaviorist. Many trainers do not understand aggression, and a behaviorist will. Here is a link to the veterinary behaviorist map to see if you have one by you: http://dacvb.org/about-us/diplomates/diplomate-map/ And here is the Applied Animal Behaviorists link: http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory

Above all, I would not roll a puppy. I also would not be so quick to blame the puppy- a lot of stuff happens that parents never see, no matter how hard the parent is trying to supervise. I would just use this as an opportunity for continued training and socialization.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

gabbys mom said:


> Okay, definitely follow Stephanie (Flying Quizini)'s advice: she really knows what she is talking about. I have a number of thoughts to add along to what she said:
> 
> 1) I show my girl in obedience, agility and tracking. And she had some serious fear based issues when she was a puppy. It took SOOO much time, energy, and money for her to be "safe" and even now, as a three year old, I watch her constantly. We've met with "regular" behaviorists and veterinary behaviorists- and one of the things that came out of those meetings is that the behavior may go dormant for years even, but you don't really ever eliminate the tendency to have that behavior. So you have to be "on watch" even if you think the behavior is gone.
> 2) Please do not put him in a show environment until you have a complete handle on this behavior. I don't know if you have shown before or even been to shows- but they are such stressful environments for dogs, especially young dogs, that you may aggravate behavior.
> ...



He's not a fearful dog, not in the slightest. Dogs growl at him and he stands his ground without displaying agression or fear (a nice happy medium,) kids screech or run at him (not our kids, their friends) and he runs up and licks them and then grabs his toy asking them to play fetch! He shows no fear in the ring or with any of the other dogs in the ring at conformation class. He has excellent behavior and he loves conformation class and the conformation ring. his only issue in the ring is he has been taught to sit and lay when he needs to stand, and this is because we have taught him to do this. Now we are working on having him stand vs lay, which is why we need to look into private classes so they can use conformation commands vs standard obedience commands (don't need him confused any further.) Once he gets his conformation down, then we can branch out with new commands.

He is crated often, and when he is not crated, he is attached via a leash, often that leash is around my ankle as a matter of fact. At no time do we allow him to roam free because of obvious reasons. The family room is 12 x 19, not a huge room, and he is ever out of our eyesight... within close reach. Never at any time is he alone with Hannah, ever, and at no time is Hannah ever out of my eyesight.

Sure, kids shouldn't mess with him when sleeping, but it's their house and they are entitled to walk by him or even gently touch him when he is asleep without the rude response he is giving them as of late, which isn't always, only once in a while. I disagree on leaving sleeping dogs lie, it's not his house or his rules, it's ours. We are however adopting treats during sleep primarily with Hannah and now he has started to perk up and get happy for that treat, so after only a few times, I'm shocked at how wonderfully it's working. Again, he and Hannah are constantly within arms reach and always monitored. I know we have the girls touch him and finger his food and toys, and he wags his tail while they do it, so if that worked, this "treat during sleep method" will also do wonders I think. This tip was fantastic advice. 

His crate is in a quiet spot and they girls do not touch it or go inside of it. Rummy loves his crate. He never jumps out of his crate until invited even with the door open, in fact he loves his crate and goes in willingly or to take naps. He gets treats for going in and treats for waiting to be called out. In fact, there is a treat bag on top of his crate. 2 sides of the crate are against the wall and the top is covered in a blanket, so it's nice and dark and den like. He also has a sleeping spot under the coffee table, which we allow him to sleep in about 20% of the time, though generally we move him to his crate for sleeping... we are trying to get him more acquainted with the world outside of his crate.

Rummy isn't aggressive, but he isn't fearful either, he just thinks he is higher on the food chain than the kids - the bottom line isn't FEAR or AGGRESSION at all, it's him viewing them as litter mates - period - which we are working on this and looking for advice on this matter. We have never rolled him. I was just looking for advice on the sleeping issue and how to work with the children in terms of pack order, not inaccurate assumptions about his personality. I repeat, Rummy is not a fearful or aggressive dog.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I think this may be a bigger temperament issue than you believe, and not only in what you do to eliminate the behavior now. In my view Goldens should NEVER resort to growling and snapping at humans, especially children. I brought my Dexy into a home with two young girls (6 and 10 at the time). I know that Dexy never thought they were above him in the hierarchy and I did not care about that. But they could do ANYTHING they wanted to with him, even stuff that got them in big time trouble with me and their mother (my sister), and Dexy did nothing but love them. They fell on him when he was asleep, grabbed his leg and would not let him go, took his toys and bones he did not care.

That is the temperament that we should be expecting in a Golden and I believe the only kind of temperament that we should accept in a breeding dog (although Dexy was never bred).


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't believe they should ever resort to growling either. However, I also don't believe that because he growled twice that he is instantly disqualified from ever breeding. That being said, if it becomes evident that he is not suitable then we won't. 

This is a dog that falls asleep licking our 3 year olds feet. Before we got him I read through some of the treads in this forum and I was almost dreading bringing him home considering what was considered "normal" puppy behaviour. (zooming, mouthy, jumping etc) He does none of these things. 

I'm glad that your dog doesn't seem to mind that he's being ridden by the children but that doesn't mean that he won't mind ever..

I believe that any dog ANY breed has the capability to bite and growl. Some breeds are far less likely to like the Golden, but there is no magical breed devoid of these qualities. It's partly the attitude that "my" dog would never do this that leads to accidents.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

My two cents with this.

First I want to share my experience related to this.
When Emma was a puppy, she was crazy. One day she ran and rolled like crazy and soon (it was in the morning) I tried to pet her. She growled and snapped at me. I was shocked, hurt, petrified...all I could think of was "geez, I ended up with an aggressive puppy" ...soon my feelings turned into huge disappointment as I kept trying over the day to approach her. Same behavior -growling and snapping. Remember I am her food supplier, I train her from the moment she set her foot (erm paws) in our house. I was confused...didn't know what to do. 

And then, at evening I SAW ...she had snapped a nail, probably when running like crazy and it hurt her. There were a few tiny blood drops too. 

Never again, never before, has she done this. She was a very young puppy, barely came to our house for a week or two and she didn't know any better. She was in pain.


Now my two cents on this - I prefer not to bother a sleeping dog. It is true, I can wake her up any time I want, without a fuss from her, but we need to learn to respect their sleep. As they need to learn to let us alone when we sleep. Perhaps he has not adjusted too well in your house, and does not know how to react. it took a few weeks for Emma to adjust. 

It is not about bad genes or anything like this as someone has suggested. 

I would take Flying Quizini's advice, too.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Yup, I like Flying Quiz's advice too! If you feel like the kids need to be able to wake him up without him growling, then keep tossing those treats to him. He is a pup still and just needs a bit of redirection.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks Diana. I checked Rummy out to see if I could find any injuries but I didn't see anything and he didn't react with pain to anything I did. Next Vet check is coming up soonish and we'll have him get a once over.

So far so good with the treats as he sleeps. I think he's pretending to sleep now to get them :doh:


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> So far so good with the treats as he sleeps. I think he's pretending to sleep now to get them :doh:



Sometimes they really are too smart for their own good.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

fostermom said:


> Yup, I like Flying Quiz's advice too! If you feel like the kids need to be able to wake him up without him growling, then keep tossing those treats to him. He is a pup still and just needs a bit of redirection.


It's crazy but that treats advice is already working, I cannot get over it. When we have Hannah wake him for his treat, he now wags his tail, crazy how fast he is catching on. The "wake him up with treats" advice deserves Tip of The Year if you ask me 




diana_D said:


> My two cents with this.
> 
> First I want to share my experience related to this.
> When Emma was a puppy, she was crazy. One day she ran and rolled like crazy and soon (it was in the morning) I tried to pet her. She growled and snapped at me. I was shocked, hurt, petrified...all I could think of was "geez, I ended up with an aggressive puppy" ...soon my feelings turned into huge disappointment as I kept trying over the day to approach her. Same behavior -growling and snapping. Remember I am her food supplier, I train her from the moment she set her foot (erm paws) in our house. I was confused...didn't know what to do.
> ...


Oh, I do agree, nobody wants to be woken up when sleeping, it's rude. But it happens, especially at the puppy phase when they sleep so much.

He has his visit at the vet next week and I'll mention it, just to make sure there are no medical things, like maybe when he is tired he is also in pain for something? We took a super long walk today and played ball and fetch the stick and I made double sure to watch his movement for limping and whatnot, he seems Ok.




missmarstar said:


> Sometimes they really are too smart for their own good.


Yes I know right?


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