# Is their "Golden" reputation in fact giving them a bad rap?



## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Agreed. 

I think the problem is that most people who have met goldens, but not owned one, only get to see the mature adult behavior. They don't know how much effort went into creating that kind of public demeanor. It is not widely known that young goldens can be rambunctious landsharks and that they can be slow to mature. All puppies go through the biting jumping chewing phases, but if you haven't raised a puppy in a while, you tend to forget how aggravating it can be. 

I don't know how well breeders prepare new owners for the reality of puppyhood. When I see people here on the forum bring home a 7-8 week old with no plans for having someone available during the day to feed, socialize, let out and play with the puppy, I get it that there is a lot of ignorance out there. When I read 10 threads on "my puppy bites", it gets reinforced. When I see parents complain that their puppy chews on the kid's toys, I know - it isn't the dog, it's the owners.


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## Judi (Feb 26, 2007)

Puppies need to learn as human children too. Who is born and knows how to behave?


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

My nephew and his partner recently adopted a French bulldog named Stitch - they got him from a woman who had 3 kids and 2 dogs. She had to get rid of Stitch because "he wasn't good with her youngest kid." My first question was "what did the kid do to him?" Turned out she hit him with a tennis racket, Stitch snapped at her - I would have bitten her, too - and OMG, he's aggressive, he's horrible, he can't be trusted around kids! Umm, no, dear, your KID can't be trusted around a dog! 

This is what upsets me, when people won't teach their kids how to act around puppies and blame everything on the puppy. Thank God, Stitch is in a good home now and spoiled rotten!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

People expect to get "Air Bud" out of the box, and give no consideration to the fact that it takes a lot of time and training to get that dog. It frustrates me to no end reading the posts about "aggressive 8 week old puppy". I just want to take the puppy away from them, really, you think a BABY comes knowing all the rules and expect it to be a perfect copy of the movie dog? That's about as realistic as expecting the puppy to talk the way the Buddies do in the multiple movies about them.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

It's called "clueless". And they think goldens are born already trained right out of the box


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## momof2boys and one dog (Jan 20, 2012)

I don't think its just Golden puppies...its any puppy. Honestly unless you have had a puppy before, you truly don't know what your in store for! In our case we researched for over a year before we chose our golden puppy but there were still many things we were surprised about. The amount of biting and hyperness was a surprise...not so much because he was a golden but because we've never had a puppy before....to say that someone should have their pup taken away because of a concern about that puppy growling or biting is unfair. Not everyone has raised a puppy before...its a learning process for many of us. It doesn't make us any less "qualified" to have a puppy. Ive had two children and there were times that I had questions and concerns....I KNEW babies cried but is my son crying more than normal?....is he eating enough...can I do this,can I do that?.... You get the picture. For someone who has a new puppy and the new puppy is growling and biting,whatever else,what is so bad about finding out the answer to concerns they have?


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

This a great thread. Max is a gentle giant. But as a puppy he had incredibly sharp baby teeth, and chewed on a lot of stuff, including our hands and arms. There was blood. He was teething. No kids in our house, so that was not a problem. Puppies have to be trained and have to mature. At 22 months, I noticed just the other day that I no longer have scratch or bite marks on my hands and arms. Max just needed to learn and mature. 
Having owned three golden retrievers over the years, we have learned that a dog may be born, but a great dog requires time to develop.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

GinnyinPA said:


> I think the problem is that most people who have met goldens, but not owned one, only get to see the mature adult behavior. They don't know how much effort went into creating that kind of public demeanor. It is not widely known that young goldens can be rambunctious landsharks and that they can be slow to mature. All puppies go through the biting jumping chewing phases, but if you haven't raised a puppy in a while, you tend to forget how aggravating it can be.


Totally agree. I just wish people would learn more about whichever breed they are interested in before jumping on the puppy bandwagon. Any puppy, Golden or not, is a lot of work, right from house-breaking to biting to training on a hundred other things. I wish they knew that it is a big commitment and that the pup is also going to grow out of the cute cuddly phase.



laprincessa said:


> Umm, no, dear, your KID can't be trusted around a dog!
> 
> This is what upsets me, when people won't teach their kids how to act around puppies and blame everything on the puppy. Thank God, Stitch is in a good home now and spoiled rotten!


Exactly... And it's easier to teach kids (I don't mean infants, they shouldn't be near the puppy anyway) the rules on when and how to play with the puppy, rather than try to teach the puppy. I know kids love puppies and see them as cuddly fur balls. But they don't realize that it's a "baby". You wouldn't allow your 3-year old to pick up an infant. The same applies to a puppy.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

mylissyk said:


> People expect to get "Air Bud" out of the box, and give no consideration to the fact that it takes a lot of time and training to get that dog.





Max's Dad said:


> This a great thread. Max is a gentle giant. But as a puppy he had incredibly sharp baby teeth, and chewed on a lot of stuff, including our hands and arms. There was blood. He was teething. No kids in our house, so that was not a problem. Puppies have to be trained and have to mature. At 22 months, I noticed just the other day that I no longer have scratch or bite marks on my hands and arms. Max just needed to learn and mature. Having owned three golden retrievers over the years, we have learned that a dog may be born, but a great dog requires time to develop.


I know what you mean. They see such "amazing, well-behaved" dogs on TV, but that 2-minute footage was probably got after hours of filming and editing. One of the friends I mentioned who returned the GR puppy got her because they saw how much fun it is with Austin. But Austin is trained now and he still acts naughty at home, but only I see it, not the rest of the world. He still tries to steal stuff, chew up things if he is bored. I have to constantly train him. 

So just because you see the "fun side" of having a dog does not mean the other side doesn't exist. Running out in the middle of the night 3-4 times before house-breaking, nips and cuts and scars during the teething phase, stubbornness during the teenage years. It's almost like having a child, you don't return the child because he is throwing tantrums.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

momof2boys and one dog said:


> I don't think its just Golden puppies...its any puppy. Honestly unless you have had a puppy before, you truly don't know what your in store for! In our case we researched for over a year before we chose our golden puppy but there were still many things we were surprised about. The amount of biting and hyperness was a surprise...not so much because he was a golden but because we've never had a puppy before....to say that someone should have their pup taken away because of a concern about that puppy growling or biting is unfair. Not everyone has raised a puppy before...its a learning process for many of us. It doesn't make us any less "qualified" to have a puppy. Ive had two children and there were times that I had questions and concerns....I KNEW babies cried but is my son crying more than normal?....is he eating enough...can I do this,can I do that?.... You get the picture. For someone who has a new puppy and the new puppy is growling and biting,whatever else,what is so bad about finding out the answer to concerns they have?


I don't say at all that people trying to find the answer or clear their doubts or just needing reassurance are wrong at all. Everyone needs some help at some point of time. So I do agree with you. But it's when a person throws up their hands saying "It's too much, this is not normal, this pup is aggressive, he drew blood from my 5-yr old" - that's when it gets on my nerves. 

Also when people get puppies _*for their kids*_, I can't help but let out an exasperated sigh. A puppy is not a good "gift", it's not a toy. You may want your child to "grow up with a dog", his own companion, but both the child and the puppy are still your responsibility. 

*Sharp Puppy Teeth + Soft Tender Baby Skin = Blood*. What's so difficult for some people to understand this?


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I remember telling my grandchildren that I expected more from them than Max because they were supposed to be smarter than him. I admit to being totally clueless when we got Max - I haven't had a dog since I was 11 and that was more than a couple years ago! So I have sympathy for those who really didn't know what they were getting into - what bugs me is the ones who are so quick to slap the "aggressive" label on a puppy, AND to go to things like choke collars to fix something that the puppy needs to outgrow and be trained not to do. I'm with MissLissyK, I want to go get the puppies, too!


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm one of the posters posting about my puppy biting. :uhoh:


And yes, I researched Goldens before I bought her.
Always had Labs in the past, so I wasn't clueless regarding puppies.

But, I have never had a puppy jump, grab my leg, and sink their puppy teeth into my arms. Nips, mouthing, yes, but not this.

I did not blame the puppy for the behavior, I blamed ME. Obviously, I was/am doing something wrong. Sending the wrong signals....

SO. After 2 puppy classes completed, a personal trainer brought in,
a new collar, another trainer, and advice from this forum, things are looking up.  :crossfing


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

This is a great thread! It should be a sticky in the puppy section


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

This is a terrific topic to be discussed.
Although Mick is a gentle old soul NOW he was the dog from hell when I got him at 7 weeks. I thought I bought DEVIL DOG!
That puppy biting was a true test of perseverence. I have no kids but if I did I could very well understand how completely devastating that stage could be to those that had kids. My arms were so bit up that I was called in to the EAP (employee assistance program) because they thought I was cutting myself. A CUTTER!! If they looked more closely it was punctures not cuts.
It was a rough time but we got through it. Just takes patience and consistancy. It's a real test for goldie owners........and I think for all puppy owners. 
People just have to really think through and contemplate the entire puppy situation.
But it was all worth it.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

What's sad to me is that most people who are getting a puppy won't come to a forum like this and read up on it before they get the puppy. They see cute little fur ball and fall in love and then when the going gets rough, they blame the dog. I think most of us here (probably all of us) have made a commitment to our dogs, and made that promise the day we brought them home, that this was a lifetime deal. There's nothing Max could do that would make me give him up, although there were times when I threatened to turn him into Max-burgers! (I'm still wearing the pair of jeans with the hole in the hip - he jumped, grabbed and tore - at 3 months old.) 

I just want to scream every time I see another thread with a puppy labeled aggressive.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think you're dead on the money. Add into the mix the fact that lots of people don't take any time to make sure they're getting a good representative of the breed out of parents who have proven their breed type.

If you just throw together two purebred Goldens, you're going to get dogs who have enough Golden look to sell to an uneducated buyer, but if you're not careful to protect a breed's heritage with each and every breeding, health, temperament, and even physical structure start to slip really fast.

So I think the problem is twofold. First, people aren't always buying a Golden whose breeding has maximized his chances at expressing true temperament. Second, they think puppies come pre-Goldened right out of the box.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

GinnyinPA said:


> I think the problem is that most people who have met goldens, but not owned one, only get to see the mature adult behavior. They don't know how much effort went into creating that kind of public demeanor. It is not widely known that young goldens can be rambunctious landsharks and that they can be slow to mature.


I think you're absolutely right about that. 
I just ran into a situation like this the other day. Riley and I were out for a walk when this older lady who lives here in our complex (I'm guessing she's probably in her early 70s) stopped her car in the middle of the street to ask me about him. She wanted to know where I got him because she wants a Golden puppy. She kept commenting on how nice he'd been walking on the leash, how calm he is and how he was just sitting there like a gentleman while we were talking. I, of course, told her that he wasn't born that way. I also tried to run down all the challenges that puppies and adolescent Goldens can present. Basically, I was doing my best to talk her out of it! I could tell by the way _she_ was talking that she pretty much expected to get a calm, perfectly well-mannered little pup from day one. Definitely someone who wanted a pup because she's seen a few friendly, well-behaved adults, with absolutely no idea what it takes to get there. 
I really hope that everything I told her will make her give it some serious consideration.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I always try to push the idea puppy kindergarten and obedience classes when people ooh and ahh over my guys' behavior. Yes, they're good dogs and were easy to train, but we've also done a lot of work together.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> So I think the problem is twofold. First, people aren't always buying a Golden whose breeding has maximized his chances at expressing true temperament. Second, they think puppies come pre-Goldened right out of the box.


Very apt description, "pre-Goldened". 

And it's not just puppies... I feel that even some older dogs which have behavior problems or are just being a bit rowdy (lack of training) are judged unfairly because they belong to the GR breed. Being a Golden, they are expected to have been perfectly well-adjusted, polite and obedient.

It's almost like saying "All Pit Bulls are vicious, All Goldens are Obedience Champions". 

ps. I am glad though that GR's don't suffer the terrible reputation that poor APBT's do.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I know just what you mean about 'being Golden'. My husband likes to walk Penny thru the village. When he gets back, I ask him where'd you/what'd you do/how was she. He gives me the itinerary which usually includes main street which is a state numbered highway. He says "oh she was great, didn't pull at all by the time we got there. She was walking along so nice with her tail wagging."

I always think "Oh no, somebody drove by, saw a beautiful Golden being so nice and is going to get a puppy".

I didn't have this forum when she was a puppy but almost everybody knows my experiences with her were really wild and dramatic. It took 2 years of classes, a lot of work and practicing, a lot of insight but we ended up with a really nice girl who still has her wild side but can control it if we tell her to.

She didn't come "Golden out of the box". More like a diamond in the rough!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I think part of the issue is who is writing on GRF. People often stumble upon this forum when they are having a problem. There are probably a lot of GR people out there who have easy dogs who never find us. Not to say that everyone shows up here for problem solving, but I suspect a lot do. And then we all just stick around and talk and brag about our dogs...


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I didn't join until I was told Copper had two splenic masses and then I joined in a panic.
I have learned a lot since then - both from copper and his issues and the lovely GRF.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Tucker was my first puppy ever and I thought he was a little monster LOL. 

I had NO idea how to make him behave and there were times when I thought I had to get rid of him... thank God I found this forum and got a lot of help.

I know what to expect with puppies now.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

I came here before we got Tucker, and was really glad to find out what to look for in a breeder, and read what to expect from a pup. Honestly, you have no idea until you bring the piece of fluff with teeth home. No amount of reading about puppies can prepare you. I think there is a right of passage that occurs around 4 to 5 days after gotcha day. It is the "What the he11 did I do?" phase. In can last for a couple of hours to a couple of days. If you make it thru that phase, you are usually hooked for life. My hands were red raw from Tucker for the first 2 weeks. But I can say that every day things get better as you learn to read your dog and vice versa. Even though puppies are a challenge, I would do it again in a heartbeat. You gotta have faith to raise a pup.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I see more issues with people who have small children labeling the puppy aggressive - and I think it's because they've seen all the cute pictures and all the movies and think it's supposed to be one big happy family, then the reality of sharp little puppy teeth sinks in. Literally.

Disclaimer - I love dogs, kids not so much. I honestly think that puppies and small children are a horrible mix. And it really bothers me to see people blaming the puppy when it's most likely the kid who's doing something as well. It also bothers me when people say that they can't take something from the dog - well, if you wanted to take it away, what did you give it to the puppy for in the first place? Common sense, anyone? You give me a hot fudge sundae and then pull it out from under me, I'm darned straight gonna growl at you, too! It's not aggression, it's just puppies being puppies!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Some more thoughts: mouthiness is actually part of a desired breed characteristic. Many dogs, and retrievers in particular, explore the world with their mouths. A certain amount of mouthiness in a Golden puppy is actually an expression of proper breed type. I don't mean they _have_ to be mouthy to express good breed type, simply that it seems to be really common in dogs who are good examples of retrieving breeds.

A retriever has to be _taught_ to express that desire to mouth and hold on the right objects. People don't realize that the super-cute behavior of offering strangers tennis balls or bringing stuffed giraffes to guests is a learned expression of natural mouthiness. Without training, that mouthiness can express itself as nipping, grabbing clothes, and even unintentionally hard bites.

A well bred Golden is also a friendly, social dog. Properly trained, this characteristic makes them extraordinary therapy dogs, wonderful family companions, and neighborhood celebrities. Untrained, this characteristic can lead to exuberant jumping or other inappropriately rough behavior. The dog just wants to look you in the face and interact, but he can accidentally scratch people or even injure them by knocking them down.

Training means as much or more than breed when it comes to making a dog a good pet and a good citizen.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

This is a great thread lots of good thoughts on the subject. I came to this forum before I knew I was going to get a Golden. I hadnt made up my mind yet as to what sporting dog breed I wanted. The more I read about Goldens the more I wanted one. I was all prepared to have a land shark but BaWaaJige never did put his mouth on me or anyone in my family. I was prepared for a jumper,chewer, totally out of control pup and what I got was a sweet docile pup. 
Would I expect my next golden to be that way....NO he was the exception.

I did like the post about the small children I just got ranted at because I wouldnt place the found pupies in a home with small children. Her son may have been a good kid but I dont know that. I didnt want my puppies being tossed aside because they were hyper like I said in the ad.


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## mayapaya (Sep 28, 2011)

OutWest said:


> I think part of the issue is who is writing on GRF. People often stumble upon this forum when they are having a problem. There are probably a lot of GR people out there who have easy dogs who never find us. Not to say that everyone shows up here for problem solving, but I suspect a lot do. And then we all just stick around and talk and brag about our dogs...


I know I found this forum when Maya was 4 months old, and I was at my wits end dealing with all the biting & jumping. It had been 15 years since we had raised a puppy before Maya and I was sure it was alot easier the first time. This forum helped me understand that I was just dealing with typical puppy behavior. Having two puppies very close in age has enlightened me to the fact that alot of behaviors (including the biting stage) with one puppy can be VERY different with another puppy. Many of the tips I have picked up here work perfectly with Payton, but Maya was a real stinker. Someone is obviously watching over me--I has one of those "what the heck have I done?" moments when we brought Payton home--thinking, oh my word, can I survive another puppy like Maya??????
Payton is just an angel (most of the time), although I've still got to make it though the teenage rebellious phase (another stage I didn't know existed until I found this forum)!!!


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree. This forum helps a lot with understanding dog behavior. I just wish people did their research before buying a puppy on a whim. It's always better to study the breed, determine what characteristics you want rather than just buying a dog because it looks cute and cuddly or because it's cool to own a guard dog like Pit/GSD. I know a few people with Border Collies and German Shorthaired Pointers who don't know what to do with their dogs. They are such high energy breeds and get bored easily. 

I always tell anyone who will listen to first research about dog behavior, the amount of care/time/money that goes into owning a dog, decide on which breed or shelter puppy they want, instead of just buying a dog because it's cute. 

Making an informed purchase is the best way to go, for both the family and the dog.

*And I absolutely hate it when people buy puppies as "substitute babies".* And once the real baby shows up, they don't have time for the dog or they babied the dog so much that it has trouble adjusting to a new baby. Introducing a dog to a baby requires care and training. You can't just thrust a baby in the midst and expect the dog to accept it. And then if there is trouble, just turn in the dog at the pound. It's just so sad. The dog was there first! He was your first responsibility. Not saying babies are important. But how did the dog lose its place, its importance and most of all how did it lose your love, that you will just discard it. It angers me so much when this happens.


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

Too many rescues are simply puppies that 'got big'. Some people have no business getting a puppy. They view it as a 'possession', not a family member like any kid who needs guidance and patience. I've seen WAY too many goldens in our golden rescue that were simply thrown away because people expected them to come fully trained as a puppy. Do they have any idea how much trauma they put the dogs through because they aren't responsible, patient, or caring enough to bother teaching them the ropes?

Andy was somewhere between 1 and 2 when the people he 'belonged to' dumped him at a high kills shelter in a little country town. He was such a beautiful boy. Learned commands in just a day or two and was eager to learn and do anything. Buddy, the rescue *Laura* adopted from us was literally dumped from a moving vehicle on the side of a highway.

There should be a test before people are allowed to adopt animals. The first one being 'how well behaved are their kids. How are they as parents to their kids'?

That's my two cents worth.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I would never expect the human children to be better behaved or a quicker learner than the puppy. Lord knows I was doing a temperament test on a very nice puppy yesterday and the humans brought their daughter who was about six years old. I always tell people that my Duffy is not good with children and make the point especially clear when they bring children. But within five minutes the little girl is moving in on Duffy. I have to say, it happens more often than not. 

I get the feeling that no matter what you say, the appeal of a cute dog is irresistible for kids. Kind of like a hamburger on a table and a Lab, no matter what you say, no matter how well trained they are, if you are not constantly keeping your eye on them, the Lab will go for the hamburger.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Selli-Belle said:


> I would never expect the human children to be better behaved or a quicker learner than the puppy. Lord knows I was doing a temperament test on a very nice puppy yesterday and the humans brought their daughter who was about six years old. I always tell people that my Duffy is not good with children and make the point especially clear when they bring children. But within five minutes the little girl is moving in on Duffy. I have to say, it happens more often than not.
> 
> I get the feeling that no matter what you say, the appeal of a cute dog is irresistible for kids. Kind of like a hamburger on a table and a Lab, no matter what you say, no matter how well trained they are, if you are not constantly keeping your eye on them, the Lab will go for the hamburger.


Just curious as to why you wouldn't expect the human children to be better behaved and learn more quickly than a puppy? 

I told my grandchildren that if they were going to act like wild beasts, Max was most likely going to act the same way, and that I expected them to understand that. It worked - most of the time - they pretty much go nuts when they get here, but that's another story. 

When they riled him up and he nipped at ankles and jumped up to grab shirt tails, it was THEIR fault. I didn't let him think it was okay, but I did make sure they knew why he had acted that way.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

I agree with Laprincessa, I would expect children to have more understanding than what I'd expect from a dog. But I'm speaking from inexperience, no children of my own. However, my childhood is not far behind, I listened when my parents told me something. My brother, not so much, but he still did as he was told. I wouldn't expect anything different from other kids. If they don't behave, they are not welcome to pet my dog. As a human, I'd expect them to have at least slightly more intelligence than a canine.


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## TonyRay (Feb 5, 2008)

Our 2 golden girls are the sweetest, loving dogs you could ever want..
the grandkids play with them, pull there ears, steamroll over them and wrestle. never as much as a nip......
that said, as puppies, they we're terrors....nipping at us, chewing things etc... in other words, normal little adorable canines.......


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## ShutterbugMom (Sep 20, 2011)

*Wow....I can't believe how antichildren this thread is...*

Not all children are horribly behaved and mean to dogs / puppies. I think this topic is really unfair to children...especially since many of you commenting on how horrible children are don't have any of your own. 

Wow...I am really sad to read this thread because until now I had gotten really good advice on here.

We waited to get a dog until my children were 10 and 5. They play with Scout and don't hurt him at all. On the flip side, after nearly 9 months, Scout *still* has not learned to leave them alone. He literally jumps on my 10 year old *all the time* and mouths him hard enough that it hurts. If my husband or I discipline him he stops, but my 10 year old is not big enough or mean enough to do it himself. It is torture because something usually happens if they are alone together for any amount of time. 

Also, even though we asked many people about Golden Retrievers before we got him and did lots of research, not ONE person told us how mischievous they are. The only warnings we ever got were they shed a lot and are hard to deal with until they are a year old. Also, we were told it was much better to adopt a shelter dog. So, we adopted a 1 year old shelter dog. I will *never* get another shelter dog because we know nothing of his background. He has been INCREDIBLY hard to deal with and I totally dread the summer when the boys are out of school because it is chaos. 

We took him to training and he does great with his commands and he has even improved with his counter cruising. However, even after 9 months of consistency he will not leave the kids alone and if he gets out he is gone and we have to chase him around the neighborhood for quite awhile to catch him. (He does "come" perfectly when inside or in a fence.) We were hoping to take him to baseball games since my boys love baseball and play a lot in the spring, but it would be a terrible thing to do. He would be wild and nobody would enjoy themselves. I know he would love a dog park, but unfortunately, the closest dog park is 35 minutes each way and they do not allow children.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I don't think it's anti children to expect them to behave as much as I expect the puppy to behave. 
I happen to agree with you about shelter dogs, you have no idea what the background of that puppy was or if he might have been mistreated by kids before you got him. 
I think the point we were trying to make here is that a lot of times, (note, a LOT of times, not EVERY time) people get a puppy thinking it's gonna be so cute with the puppy and the kids, and when reality hits, they blame it all on the puppy.


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## wmag (Mar 17, 2011)

Children just like puppies get excited and forget their manners! Kasey is my first puppy I ever had on my own. I waited 8yrs to get a dog. I read a couple books and read everything else I could find on Golden Retrievers but was still a little shocked at how she behaved! I have to admit I was a little nervous! I didn't start my own thread but did a lot of searching on the forum and found out it was normal. I was never going to give Kasey back but it was nice just to be sure it was normal! I know everybody probably gets sick of saying no it is not agression but wouldn't you rather people ask instead of dumping their puppies! I am glad somebody did because it made me feel better to read it was normal and others were going through the same thing!


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

I commend you for adopting a shelter dog, but yes, you do not know the dog's background. He may have been abused or neglected prior to going to the shelter, which may have led to the behavioral problems you are experiencing. Please be patient. Sounds like Scout is still young. His behavior may improve after he turns two years old, and continue to improve as he gets older. Our previous Golden, Chewy, was a real problem until after her second birthday, when she began to turn the corner, and became a great dog until she passed at age 14.

And I agree, many young children are great with dogs.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I love dogs, and if I lived alone, I would likely have a dog anyway, but to be honest the dogs I have are here _because_ of my child...and I'm sure I'm not alone. They are here to help my daughter learn responsibility, learn to have empathy for other living things, learn to take care of another and put them first. Because she is immature, I am always watching to make sure the dogs are well cared for, not mistreated or neglected, and of course I love them dearly. In the classic turn-about, i probably love them more than my daughter. :doh: Im the adult in the background, ensuring everyones well being. But the _raison d'être_ IS my daughter. I know I'm not alone. My parents did the same, and I'm sure many on this forum also.

With all that said, I think it's unfair to look at kids as a threat to dogs. If they don't know to ask before petting, you should speak to the adult in charge. If they don't follow your directions regarding your dogs, same answer. In our society, which looks at dogs as property and humans as the center of the universe, the child's safety and needs will always reign supreme over the dog's. In my house we make lifetime commitments to our pets and the dog would have to be a serious problem or threat to my child in order to be rehomed. I agree too many ignorant people bring home dogs and then blame the dogs for the child-dog problems. But truthfully, that's just the way our society works and it's not going to change anytime soon.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

ShutterbugMom said:


> Not all children are horribly behaved and mean to dogs / puppies. I think this topic is really unfair to children...especially since many of you commenting on how horrible children are don't have any of your own.
> 
> Wow...I am really sad to read this thread because until now I had gotten really good advice on here.
> 
> ...


The intention of this thread is definitely not to be anti-children as you think. I do know many children treat animals right, I know I did as a child. But there are children who do not know how to behave or just don't have the control and unintentionally annoy or harm the dog. In this situation, it's almost *always the dog that is blamed and a lot of times abandoned or put down.* You can't deny that. And I'm not saying either case is to be "generalized".

*Also, I wanted to note that when I started this thread, it was not intended to be directed against or for children, it was not meant to be a puppy vs children thread. What I started it for was to see if people feel the same way I do, i.e when a Golden Retriever misbehaves (the dog may actually be at fault) are they judged more strictly because they are not following the "breed standard" of being friendly and putting up with almost anything.*

Your shelter dog for e.g, I don't know if you're referring to a Golden, but let's say it was a Golden, would it be judged worse just because it's a Golden? Again, not saying you are judging him/her bad, but I've seen a lot of threads started by people saying, "I got a Golden because they are gentle, but this one is aggressive". And a lot of times, the "aggressive dog" is a puppy and the "victim of aggression" a child. 

*TonyRay *for eg has truly "Golden" girls. With all the irresponsible breeding and abuse that shelter animals may have faced, I would really say that TonyRay is lucky. So am I. But there are other Goldens who stray from this *norm *and are judged poorly because they are Golden. It may have been abused as a puppy or just a result of irresponsible breeding or maybe has some physical/neurological issues. But just like Pits are misjudged as all being aggressive, Goldens are increasingly being misjudged as all being obedient and friendly. And when they don't meet these expectations, a lot of people don't take the effort to understand the root cause and often wash their hands off the dog.

This post is rather long, but I hope you and every one else takes the time to read it, because the question here is not whether children or dogs are right. The question is why are people expecting all Goldens to be of "Golden" personality. And if there is a deviation in the form of an untrained dog or a naughty puppy, it is being judged bad.

And anyone who buys or adopts a Golden should read or be advised by breeder/friends or take initiative to understand the breed and hence know that all Golden puppies are LandSharks. They were bred to be "mouthy", they have a need to hold things in their mouth, that is one of their senses and all puppies understand the world through this.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

canine_mommy said:


> The intention of this thread is definitely not to be anti-children as you think. I do know many children treat animals right, I know I did as a child. But there are children who do not know how to behave or just don't have the control and unintentionally annoy or harm the dog. In this situation, it's almost *always the dog that is blamed and a lot of times abandoned or put down.* You can't deny that. And I'm not saying either case is to be "generalized".
> 
> *Also, I wanted to note that when I started this thread, it was not intended to be directed against or for children, it was not meant to be a puppy vs children thread. What I started it for was to see if people feel the same way I do, i.e when a Golden Retriever misbehaves (the dog may actually be at fault) are they judged more strictly because they are not following the "breed standard" of being friendly and putting up with almost anything.*
> 
> ...


thank you!


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

canine_mommy said:


> I was wondering and decided to post here in the Behavior section... I see so many threads usually about Golden Puppies being aggressive, biting, dominating, on the whole, being utterly chaotic. This is usually followed by a comment like "I got a Golden Retriever because they are supposed to be gentle, great family dogs, good with children, but this one is aggressive". People are quick to throw around words like Aggressive, Dominating, Attacking.
> 
> When I see these, I usually get quite upset  It's a dog, a puppy, he/she doesn't know the "Human Rules" yet. In most cases, it's just normal puppy behavior (I'm not discounting resource guarding and other real issues, they may well be there). But it's usually silly puppy behavior that gets a lot of new owners troubled. Especially some with kids, who just weren't expecting it.
> 
> ...


I can certainly understand. Even if the landshark phase drives an owner crazy, it is still overcomable. You have to keep being consistent with patience. I am preaching to myself here too. I am still teaching Mercy not to mouth, and I will keep working with her as long as it takes.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

GinnyinPA said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I think the problem is that most people who have met goldens, but not owned one, only get to see the mature adult behavior. They don't know how much effort went into creating that kind of public demeanor. It is not widely known that young goldens can be rambunctious landsharks and that they can be slow to mature. All puppies go through the biting jumping chewing phases, but if you haven't raised a puppy in a while, you tend to forget how aggravating it can be.
> 
> I don't know how well breeders prepare new owners for the reality of puppyhood. When I see people here on the forum bring home a 7-8 week old with no plans for having someone available during the day to feed, socialize, let out and play with the puppy, I get it that there is a lot of ignorance out there. When I read 10 threads on "my puppy bites", it gets reinforced. When I see parents complain that their puppy chews on the kid's toys, I know - it isn't the dog, it's the owners.


It has been 16 years since I owned a puppy. I know that raising a puppy is no picnic. Even though my Mercy is not as energetic as my last dog, she is still a challenge. I will not give up. I will make sure Mercy meets her full potential.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

momof2boys and one dog said:


> I don't think its just Golden puppies...its any puppy. Honestly unless you have had a puppy before, you truly don't know what your in store for! In our case we researched for over a year before we chose our golden puppy but there were still many things we were surprised about. The amount of biting and hyperness was a surprise...not so much because he was a golden but because we've never had a puppy before....to say that someone should have their pup taken away because of a concern about that puppy growling or biting is unfair. Not everyone has raised a puppy before...its a learning process for many of us. It doesn't make us any less "qualified" to have a puppy. Ive had two children and there were times that I had questions and concerns....I KNEW babies cried but is my son crying more than normal?....is he eating enough...can I do this,can I do that?.... You get the picture. For someone who has a new puppy and the new puppy is growling and biting,whatever else,what is so bad about finding out the answer to concerns they have?


Even though Mercy is my 2nd puppy, I am still learning. I already expected there to be mouthing, jumping, chewing etc. I thought that Mercy would be more responsive to the methods I know of to get her to stop mouthing. I learned a lot from my previous dog who lived to be 13 years of age. I have a lot of experience under my belt. She is not nearly as wild as my previous puppy, but her mouthing was a little more than expected, though not as much as my previous puppy. We will get through this with patience, consistency, and time.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

dborgers said:


> Too many rescues are simply puppies that 'got big'. Some people have no business getting a puppy. They view it as a 'possession', not a family member like any kid who needs guidance and patience. I've seen WAY too many goldens in our golden rescue that were simply thrown away because people expected them to come fully trained as a puppy. Do they have any idea how much trauma they put the dogs through because they aren't responsible, patient, or caring enough to bother teaching them the ropes?
> 
> Andy was somewhere between 1 and 2 when the people he 'belonged to' dumped him at a high kills shelter in a little country town. He was such a beautiful boy. Learned commands in just a day or two and was eager to learn and do anything. Buddy, the rescue *Laura* adopted from us was literally dumped from a moving vehicle on the side of a highway.
> 
> ...


Our breeder tested our son before she let us purchase one of her puppies.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Selli-Belle said:


> I would never expect the human children to be better behaved or a quicker learner than the puppy. Lord knows I was doing a temperament test on a very nice puppy yesterday and the humans brought their daughter who was about six years old. I always tell people that my Duffy is not good with children and make the point especially clear when they bring children. But within five minutes the little girl is moving in on Duffy. I have to say, it happens more often than not.
> 
> I get the feeling that no matter what you say, the appeal of a cute dog is irresistible for kids. Kind of like a hamburger on a table and a Lab, no matter what you say, no matter how well trained they are, if you are not constantly keeping your eye on them, the Lab will go for the hamburger.


A Golden Retriever who isn't good with kids, please explain.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

OutWest said:


> I love dogs, and if I lived alone, I would likely have a dog anyway, but to be honest the dogs I have are here _because_ of my child...and I'm sure I'm not alone. They are here to help my daughter learn responsibility, learn to have empathy for other living things, learn to take care of another and put them first. Because she is immature, I am always watching to make sure the dogs are well cared for, not mistreated or neglected, and of course I love them dearly. In the classic turn-about, i probably love them more than my daughter. :doh: Im the adult in the background, ensuring everyones well being. But the _raison d'être_ IS my daughter. I know I'm not alone. My parents did the same, and I'm sure many on this forum also.
> 
> With all that said, I think it's unfair to look at kids as a threat to dogs. If they don't know to ask before petting, you should speak to the adult in charge. If they don't follow your directions regarding your dogs, same answer. In our society, which looks at dogs as property and humans as the center of the universe, the child's safety and needs will always reign supreme over the dog's. In my house we make lifetime commitments to our pets and the dog would have to be a serious problem or threat to my child in order to be rehomed. I agree too many ignorant people bring home dogs and then blame the dogs for the child-dog problems. But truthfully, that's just the way our society works and it's not going to change anytime soon.


This is what I was saying. You are a responsible adult. I agree kids growing up with dogs and cats is a very good thing, I forget the name and year of the study, but it has been shown that such kids grow up to be more empathetic. And although a lot of people have good intentions like you, i.e. to let their child grow up with his own pet, they forget that it is not the child's responsibility. As I said in a previous post, both the child and dog are the parent's responsibility. You really can't expect a kid to take care of another living being. And that's how a lot of accidents happen and the poor dog gets the blame. 

Recently I read a news in Daily Mail about a GR mix adopted from a shelter by a family with 2 kids and an infant. The dog apparently killed and dismembered the baby. Where were the parents at this time? Mom was not at home and the Dad was sleeping. I don't know the circumstances and since I'm not the affected party, I can judge very objectively here and not truly understand their emotions, hence what I say may seem cold. But when this happens, how can you blame only the dog? What were they doing adopting a dog from a shelter when they have an infant and then leaving the infant with the dog unattended and above all, sleep during that time? Like I said, it may be easy for me to judge them, but they judged the dog wrongly, didn't they? What were they expecting? The poor baby and the dog had to pay with their lives for the parents' mistake.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

MercyMom said:


> A Golden Retriever who isn't good with kids, please explain.


My brother in law had a Golden Retriever named Jesse - who is actually the reason I wanted a Golden. Jesse never met a kid he didn't hate. He growled at every single one of them, including my great-nephews, who were both raised with dogs, and knew how to act around a dog. 

Some on here would immediately exclaim that this behavior is incorrect temperament, and indeed, it is. However, Jesse lived quite happily to about 12 years old, with owners who made sure he was never left alone with a child, never put in a position where he would endanger a child. Would he have progressed beyond the growling? Can't say because he never had the opportunity. 

So when small children run up to Max and throw their arms around his neck, squealing happily while he licks their faces and their parents beam approvingly, I think "**** lucky you didn't try that with Jesse."


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

MercyMom said:


> A Golden Retriever who isn't good with kids, please explain.


My golden isn't good with kids- frankly, they scare him! Not because he doesn't have an amazing temperament-he is truly a big, mellow lovebug but simply because he was not socialized with them when he was young. I got him at three months old, his first 3 months were spent in a home with only adults, my children were grown, my friends didn't have young children - so quite simply- no exposure.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> Our breeder tested our son before she let us purchase one of her puppies.


Sounds like a good plan! What kind of tests did she do?


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> My brother in law had a Golden Retriever named Jesse - who is actually the reason I wanted a Golden. Jesse never met a kid he didn't hate. He growled at every single one of them, including my great-nephews, who were both raised with dogs, and knew how to act around a dog.
> 
> Some on here would immediately exclaim that this behavior is incorrect temperament, and indeed, it is. However, Jesse lived quite happily to about 12 years old, with owners who made sure he was never left alone with a child, never put in a position where he would endanger a child. Would he have progressed beyond the growling? Can't say because he never had the opportunity.
> 
> So when small children run up to Max and throw their arms around his neck, squealing happily while he licks their faces and their parents beam approvingly, I think "**** lucky you didn't try that with Jesse."


What happened to Jesse to cause him to act that way, since it is incorrect temperament? I think it's totally unacceptable for Goldens to hate children, but then again, that's just me. It would have been good for him to have had the opportunity to be trained to not be agressive towards children. I have no problem with children running up to a friendly golden and of course it is much better if they ask first. It's actually the other way around with me. Mercy will run up to children without "their" permission, and I have to tell her to off, heel and sit. I know you don't care for children and dogs having a relationship much, but I think it's one of greatest joys of owning a golden.  I think it is one of the loveliest things in the world when Goldens and children bond, since Goldens are best known for their love of children. I don't know what kind of people you visit with Max since he is a therapy dog. Do you visit sick children with him or just the adult population? Just curious. I am sure that you are happy that he is a sweet friendly dog and that he is not like Jesse. A dog like Jesse should not be qualified to be a therapy dog. One of my biggest dreams with Mercy is to take her to help hurting children (as well as well and happy ones). I could see you were not too thrilled with the idea of my taking Mercy to visit the preschool children at the MOPS Spring Fling, particularly since she was recovering from the swallowed sock. But Mercy being loved by those children made my day!!!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

MercyMom said:


> What happened to Jesse to cause him to act that way, since it is incorrect temperament? I think it's totally unacceptable for Goldens to hate children, but then again, that's just me. It would have been good for him to have had the opportunity to be trained to not be agressive towards children. Of course I have no problem with children running up to a friendly golden and of course it is much better if they ask first. It's actually the other way around with me. Mercy will run up to children without "their" permission and I have to tell her to heel and sit. I know you don't care for children and dogs having a relationship much, but I think it's one of greatest joys of owning a golden.  I think it is one of the loveliest things in the world when Goldens and children bond, since Goldens are best known for their love of children. I don't know what kind of people you visit with Max since he is a therapy dog. Do you visit sick children with him or just the adult population? Just curious. I am sure that you are happy that he is a sweet friendly dog and that he is not like Jesse. A dog like Jesse should not be qualified to be a therapy dog. One of my biggest dreams with Mercy is to take her to help hurting children (as well as well and happy ones). I could see you were not too thrilled with the idea of my taking Mercy to visit the preschool children at the MOPS Spring Fling, particularly since she was recovering from the swallowed sock. But Mercy being loved by those children made my day!!!


I am no expert... but from my understanding.. yes Goldens have a 'golden' temperament which is what breeders should be incorporating to their lines.. but there are sometimes bad apples. I think saying 'all golden retrievers should be like air-bud after some training' is like saying 'all italians love meatballs' or 'all african american people are black' (not trying to offend anyone... just trying to make a point... im italian btw  ) you can't paint every golden 'golden' and say its unacceptable if they don't have all the characteristics that 'goldens' have. Some people have done SO MUCH training and work with their goldens... and they are amazing dogs! but maybe sometimes they dont like kids... or other dogs.. or strangers..

just what I think


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> Sounds like a good plan! What kind of tests did she do?


She just wanted to make sure that Joshua was not rambunctious or afraid. He passed with flying colors. She could see we were good parents who had him under control. He likes to explore alot, but to my breeder it was innocent play. She adored our son. Another breeder we considered commented on how well behaved he was. Joshua is such a sweet child. He is good for a two year old. He has his moments when he doesn't listen to us, but what two year old doesn't. My breeder thinks that the children/golden retriever bond is a precious thing. That was one reason why I chose her.


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## Suni52 (Jan 18, 2012)

We take Sadie to the park quite a bit with my two young children and she is very well behaved. I always keep her on lead and make her sit if someone wants to pet her, which she always does with ease. 
The thing that I find funny is that parents never hesitate to let their children come up to Sadie, and pet her, probably because she is a golden and they have a sweet reputation. I also find that other pet owners want their dogs to play with her, assuming that she will be good with other dogs. I always think to myself, "thank goodness she does live up to the Golden reputation", because otherwise we would be bombarded by a lot of unwanted advances from children and dogs alike. 
But I find myself biased as well. We saw a GSD at the park the other day, and my 2yo ran up to it. Now she knows better. She knows she is supposed to walk up to a dog and ask the owner to pet it. But my GOD my heart was in my throat. Luckily the dog was perfectly behaved, great with children and didn't think anything of it, but I was immediately biased because it was a GSD. I probably wouldn't have been as panicked if it was a golden. So yes I can see the reputation working both ways.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Jamm said:


> I am no expert... but from my understanding.. yes Goldens have a 'golden' temperament which is what breeders should be incorporating to their lines.. but there are sometimes bad apples. I think saying 'all golden retrievers should be like air-bud after some training' is like saying 'all italians love meatballs' or 'all african american people are black' (not trying to offend anyone... just trying to make a point... im italian btw  ) you can't paint every golden 'golden' and say its unacceptable if they don't have all the characteristics that 'goldens' have. Some people have done SO MUCH training and work with their goldens... and they are amazing dogs! but maybe sometimes they dont like kids... or other dogs.. or strangers..
> 
> just what I think


Understandable, just sad is all.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

MercyMom said:


> Understandable, just sad is all.


Yes but it can happen to anyone, any breed, any thing really. One bad experience at an early stage of life can be the cause of who you are for the rest of your life. Dog or human


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Jamm said:


> Yes but it can happen to anyone, any breed, any thing really. One bad experience at an early stage of life can be the cause of who you are for the rest of your life. Dog or human


Exactly. I know all too well about dogs of all breeds that turn out agressive due to poor socialization and abuse. How a dog acts all depends on how it is raised.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

MercyMom said:


> A Golden Retriever who isn't good with kids, please explain.


Golden Retrievers are individuals, they will not all be good at everything the breed is hyped for. My two are not retrievers, I know some that don't like to swim. 

There are Golden Retrievers who are not comfortable with small children, that does not make them bad dogs, or a bad representation of the breed. 

Each dog is an individual, with individual strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

mylissyk said:


> Golden Retrievers are individuals, they will not all be good at everything the breed is hyped for. My two are not retrievers, I know some that don't like to swim.
> 
> There are Golden Retrievers who are not comfortable with small children, that does not make them bad dogs, or a bad representation of the breed.
> 
> Each dog is an individual, with individual strengths, weaknesses, likes and dislikes.


Exactly! Each dog is an individual and it is *completely alright* for them to stray from the stereotype Golden behavior.

Edit:
Let me add, when I say "completely alright", I don't mean to say that it's ok to lose what has been bred into them for so many years, i.e. to be great companions, loving, obedient, tolerant and great sport dogs. What I mean is, if there are deviations, then treat it as an individual trait, just don't expect all Goldens to meet the standard. There are numerous reasons the dog may not have the temperament or quality that the breed is known for.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

MercyMom said:


> What happened to Jesse to cause him to act that way, since it is incorrect temperament? I think it's totally unacceptable for Goldens to hate children, but then again, that's just me. It would have been good for him to have had the opportunity to be trained to not be agressive towards children. I have no problem with children running up to a friendly golden and of course it is much better if they ask first. It's actually the other way around with me. Mercy will run up to children without "their" permission, and I have to tell her to off, heel and sit. I know you don't care for children and dogs having a relationship much, but I think it's one of greatest joys of owning a golden.  I think it is one of the loveliest things in the world when Goldens and children bond, since Goldens are best known for their love of children. I don't know what kind of people you visit with Max since he is a therapy dog. Do you visit sick children with him or just the adult population? Just curious. I am sure that you are happy that he is a sweet friendly dog and that he is not like Jesse. A dog like Jesse should not be qualified to be a therapy dog. One of my biggest dreams with Mercy is to take her to help hurting children (as well as well and happy ones). I could see you were not too thrilled with the idea of my taking Mercy to visit the preschool children at the MOPS Spring Fling, particularly since she was recovering from the swallowed sock. But Mercy being loved by those children made my day!!!



My brother in law got him at 8 weeks old from a reputable breeder, he was never mistreated in any way by a child. 


I don't particularly like your tone about Max and his therapy work, where we go and who we visit is irrelevant to the fact that saying that all Goldens SHOULD like children is like saying that all adults SHOULD love kids, and while this may come as a surprise to you, some of us DON'T. 

The reason I thought you shouldn't take Mercy to the MOPS thing was because she was supposedly still recovering from the sock incident, it had nothing to do with the fact that children were there.


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## Hunter'sMom (Sep 5, 2011)

I agree with those who have stated that you have to look at each dog as an individual, and appreciate who they are and what they have to offer. I would like for Jackson to become a therapy dog, he loves everyone but especially children and the elderly. But if one day he wakes up and decides that spending time with them doesn't make him happy, then that is OK, and we will deal with it and he can pursue other activities. We have had wonderful dogs come into our rescue who don't like water, or balls, or teenagers, or children, or any number of things. But each of them was a wonderful dog in their own right.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

Elliot and I visit our hospital and often meet young children in the waiting rooms. I have been very impressed with how the children approach Elliot and ask to pet him. Sometimes the kids are more cautious than the parents, possibly because he is bigger than they are. I am fortunate that Elliot is so well behaved with kids since I did not know his background before adopting him from the shelter.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Also wanted to add... out of all the children 10 and under Joey and I have met... lets say 7 out of every 10.. ran up to Joey without asking to pet him.. the really young ones tried to sit on him, and one was pulling his ears and tail.. Puppies/dogs and kids are very much alike and should be treated the same.. you wouldn't leave a puppy alone with a strange animal.. don't leave your animal alone with a strange child. Again... just MHO!


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I think that remembering that these dogs are individuals is so key. To me, they are themselves first and golden retrievers second. I've often heard that their is more variation among breeds than between breeds - that is, two individual golden retrievers can differ even more in personality than the "average" golden differs from the "average" GSD or what have you.


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## Suni52 (Jan 18, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> She just wanted to make sure that Joshua was not rambunctious or afraid. He passed with flying colors. She could see we were good parents who had him under control. He likes to explore alot, but to my breeder it was innocent play. She adored our son. Another breeder we considered commented on how well behaved he was. Joshua is such a sweet child. He is good for a two year old. He has his moments when he doesn't listen to us, but what two year old doesn't. My breeder thinks that the children/golden retriever bond is a precious thing. That was one reason why I chose her.


I had to laugh at this. My 4.5yo son has special needs, and was okay when we went to the breeder but he was a little excited and a little crazy at first, but by the end he was playing a good game of fetch with Sadie. My 2.5yo on the other hand was a wild woman. She wasn't afraid, but she was all over the place and wasn't listening to a word we said. She was too excited by all the pretty dogs. I thought for sure the breeder was going to say no to us.... But she saw something with our bond with the dog and said we could have her. So thankful that she did, because my kids love this dog so much. She fits in like she's been here forever. But I was nervous for a little while there. I felt like we were "auditioning".


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

canine_mommy said:


> Exactly! Each dog is an individual and it is *completely alright* for them to stray from the stereotype Golden behavior.
> 
> Edit:
> Let me add, when I say "completely alright", I don't mean to say that it's ok to lose what has been bred into them for so many years, i.e. to be great companions, loving, obedient, tolerant and great sport dogs. What I mean is, if there are deviations, then treat it as an individual trait, just don't expect all Goldens to meet the standard. There are numerous reasons the dog may not have the temperament or quality that the breed is known for.


Even my Mercy has a trait that seems out of character for a golden. She is a watchdog. She barks (seriously) at the neighbors while she is outside taking her potty break.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> My brother in law got him at 8 weeks old from a reputable breeder, he was never mistreated in any way by a child.
> 
> 
> I don't particularly like your tone about Max and his therapy work, where we go and who we visit is irrelevant to the fact that saying that all Goldens SHOULD like children is like saying that all adults SHOULD love kids, and while this may come as a surprise to you, some of us DON'T.
> ...


Hmmm. Jesse must have not been properly socialized with children. I was not trying to use an unpleasant tone with you. Since I will be a fellow therapy dog volunteer someday soon and sharing what I do with Mercy, I would like to know who you visit. But if you have a problem with that, we can agree to disagree.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

MercyMom said:


> Hmmm. Jesse must have not been properly socialized with children. I was not trying to use an unpleasant tone with you. Since I will be a fellow therapy dog volunteer someday soon and sharing what I do with Mercy, I would like to know who you visit. But if you have a problem with that, we can agree to disagree.


Jesse was properly socialized.
My point, which you seem to be insistent on not getting, was that not all Golden Retrievers love children, and to assume that they do is asking for trouble.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> Jesse was properly socialized.
> My point, which you seem to be insistent on not getting, was that not all Golden Retrievers love children, and to assume that they do is asking for trouble.


I know that not all Goldens like children. It is much more preferred if they do so. I agree that going up to any dog assuming it's friendly is asking for trouble. I will certainly teach my child to ask before petting, because the last thing I want is for Joshua to get into trouble. A lot of children ask to pet my dog and I have to tell them that Mercy needs to sit first. It is great to see these well mannered children, and it is great that they also want to pet my dog.  

In my experience, I have never known a golden to not like children, so that is why it was unpleasant to hear these cases. This was the first time in my life that I had heard of it. 

I pride my breeder in not only breeding for best hips of all breeders in the country, but for also breeding for the perfect Golden temperament, which happens to love kids. She also breeds for relatively lower cancer rates. I seriously doubt any of her goldens dislike kids. The friendship between a child and a golden is very precious to her. My breeder mentors children and teenagers to be junior handlers at no charge. 

Aggression in the show ring towards anyone is a fault, and should disqualify the dog. 

My previous dog did have dog aggression problems. I was not happy about it. It certainly was not something I jumped for joy over. He was a Lab/Shepherd/Chow mix. When he lunged at a Saint Bernard at Walter Reed, I got kicked out that particular therapy group, and rightfully so. Needless to say, I was very embarrased. I have had to keep a distance from other dogs for most of his life. It was not easy or pleasant. I still think people should have had more grace with him. And I therefore agree that goldens who do not like children also need grace. 

My dog was Delta certified. As a volunteer, I sometimes helped out at the re-certify evaluations. I pretended to be someone in a walker who groaned and moaned to see if the dog would be calm and not afraid during that portion of the screening. There was a handler and his golden being screened, but when I banged the walker and groaned, the golden barked at me and they had to fail him on the spot for it. I was hoping that this dog and handler would get a second chance for the dog to not be afraid next time. Dogs do need patience, grace and mercy. 

I saw an amazing story on Animal Cops Miami about a vicious Rottweiler that previously was a junkyard dog, that kept lunging at this particular animal control officer, but they decided not to put him down (although they were considering it) and were willing to rehab him so he could be adopted out to a home with an experienced handler. Some animal shelters and rescues will not give a dog a second chance if there is any history of biting children. I think it's better to rehab the dogs whenever possible. Even though dogs deserve grace for their behavior problems, aggression in any dog towards anyone man or beast, should not be condoned.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Even good, happy, friendly dogs can sometimes be unsure or uncomfortable in a situation. It is really important to always monitor your dogs body language as many people that thought their dog was fine with children ended up with a child bit. Goldens of good temperment may be less likely but no dog is absolutely perfect 100% of the time and all dogs have the potential to bite.

IMO, not only should a child/parent ask the owner if they can pet the dog but the dog should be able to choose if he/she wants petted and they will tell us by their body language and their choice should be respected. Goes for adults too.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> I pride my breeder in not only breeding for best hips of all breeders in the country, but for also breeding for the perfect Golden temperament, which happens to love kids. *She also breeds for relatively lower cancer rates.* I seriously doubt any of her goldens dislike kids. The friendship between a child and a golden is very precious to her. My breeder mentors children and teenagers to be junior handlers at no charge.


May I ask how she achieves this?


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> I pride my breeder in not only breeding for best hips of all breeders in the country


How could you possibly know that?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> *In my experience, I have never known a golden to not like children,* so that is why it was unpleasant to hear these cases. This was the first time in my life that I had heard of it.


This my experience also. We purchased our first golden because of extensive research on which breed is the best with children. All you have to do is google "best dog for children" and more than not the golden will be number 1 However I am educated enough to to know that yes not all are wired the same and alot has to do with their environment etc, I also find it unpleasant to hear these cases. Because they even have shows on animal planet stating this is one of the best breeds for children. I would also hope that any owner who has a dog of any breed who are aggresive towards children to take _extra_ precaution to not put themselves in a situation where a child might run up and try to hug the dog.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

One of the very posts I put on GRF was regarding this...someone had just joined and said he was getting a Golden because it was pretty much foolproof for kids...I ranted on a bit about how no dog is foolproof safe for kids and how you can never leave them unsupervised. Then I got off my soap box. But some things deserve strong messages...


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

OutWest said:


> One of the very posts I put on GRF was regarding this...someone had just joined and said he was getting a Golden because it was pretty much foolproof for kids...I ranted on a bit about how no dog is foolproof safe for kids and how you can never leave them unsupervised. Then I got off my soap box. But some things deserve strong messages...


Rightly said... Everyone knows they are one of the best breeds with kids. But very important to note that it is definitely not foolproof. Just because the majority are like that doesn't mean all can be expected to be the same. And it really bugs me when people get them thinking nothing can go wrong and one small nip or growl (could be playful) will surprise/shock them.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> May I ask how she achieves this?


I am sorry I did not get back to you sooner on this. There is never an 100% guarantee against cancer. However, my breeder breeds dogs that have had reduced cases of cancer in their lines. I was considering a dog from Ginny Boyle of Charms Goldens and my when I spoke to my breeder for the first time, she had told me "Be careful! Lot's of cancer!" My breeder and Ginny Boyle are arch rivals. I was also told that Ginny's dogs were aggressive.:no:


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> How could you possibly know that?


My breeder told me she was. I know that that may seem like a an overstated claim, but she sounded like she was speaking the factual truth. She is an AKC Breeder of Merit.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Regarding goldens that don't like kids:

I have a friend who has a lovely male golden who DESPISES blonde girls. Oh, how sad. Wanna know why? When he was a 6 month old puppy my friend's 6 year old cousin (a blonde girl) got in his crate and stabbed him in the eye with a pencil. Poor pup lost his eye and, apparently, his love for certain kids.

Can't blame him!

Kids are lovely and all, but they can also be terrible with dogs if unsupervised.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

Florabora said:


> Regarding goldens that don't like kids:
> 
> I have a friend who has a lovely male golden who DESPISES blonde girls. Oh, how sad. Wanna know why? When he was a 6 month old puppy my friend's 6 year old cousin (a blonde girl) got in his crate and stabbed him in the eye with a pencil. Poor pup lost his eye and, apparently, his love for certain kids.
> 
> ...


omg! That's terrible. I can't even imagine what that poor pup went through. Dogs bred to have perfectly good temperament too, get scarred for life because of some incident or trauma like the example you gave, can't blame them. And to say that makes them less of a Golden is just wrong and sad. They may not win in the show circle but they are still good dogs, they have have a _personality _ their own likes and dislikes...


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

Some goldens who have historically been pretty bombproof with kids do find their tolerance level lowering as they get older.

Buddy, 13+, really does love kids and is great with them....but slowly, over the last year, he will do everything he can to get away from some of them. It's the shriekers and the ones who run up to him and poke and grab that he will try to avoid and I can't blame him. A quiet, respectful child...he loves, but in smaller doses than he used to. I've heard parents say "you can do this with him, he's a golden....but you can't act this way with other dogs". Geesh! Don't act that way with ANY dog!

I firmly believe Buddy would never intentionally hurt anyone, child or adult....but he will definitely try to escape the situation and may end up knocking a child over in his attempt.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> My breeder told me she was. I know that that may seem like a an overstated claim, but she sounded like she was speaking the factual truth. She is an AKC Breeder of Merit.


I'm sorry, but that sounds ridiculous. What possible proof or research would she have on this?


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

This thread..... oh boy..


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

It's not just kids. My best friend and I went to a local pet store with Max and her Golden - Duke. Duke was 5 years old, absolutely wonderful dog, but he was not a kisser. Max would slobber the face of anyone who gets close enough, but not Duke. Both dogs were lying quietly on the floor, waiting for us to be done shopping. A man came around the corner and exclaimed about how good they were, etc. He got down on his knees to pet them, and of course, Max gave kisses with little encouragement. The guy said to Duke, "come on, boy, give me a kiss!" and stuck his face in Duke's. I said, "Duke really isn't much of a kisser." 
"oh, he'll kiss me!" says the guy.
"umm, probably not," says I
Duke was looking at the guy like he'd grown a third head. 
Guy keeps sticking his face in Duke's and insisting he get a kiss. Duke didn't react at all, except to turn his head away.
I finally said to the guy, "if he bites you, you deserve it, please get your face away from him!" 
The guy was all insulted, and informed that "Goldens ALWAYS give me kisses!" Well, not this one! 
And if Duke HAD bitten him, it would have been blamed on that horrible aggressive Golden Retriever.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> It's not just kids. My best friend and I went to a local pet store with Max and her Golden - Duke. Duke was 5 years old, absolutely wonderful dog, but he was not a kisser. Max would slobber the face of anyone who gets close enough, but not Duke. Both dogs were lying quietly on the floor, waiting for us to be done shopping. A man came around the corner and exclaimed about how good they were, etc. He got down on his knees to pet them, and of course, Max gave kisses with little encouragement. The guy said to Duke, "come on, boy, give me a kiss!" and stuck his face in Duke's. I said, "Duke really isn't much of a kisser."
> "oh, he'll kiss me!" says the guy.
> "umm, probably not," says I
> Duke was looking at the guy like he'd grown a third head.
> ...


Wow! isn't that the typical thing that lands people in trouble and worse gets the poor dog in trouble for just being a dog. Why don't people realize dogs aren't humans, they don't greet be hugging, kissing, shaking hands! I'm glad you told him he deserved getting bit 


You never go near a dog's face, specially from the front. Now with my own dog, I take that liberty but I know his temperament and *my dog trusts me and allows me* to do so. If you do think dogs and people are the same, then here's a question: You don't walk around asking random people on the street to kiss you (you'd be in jail), why take that liberty with a dog?


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

MercyMom said:


> I am sorry I did not get back to you sooner on this. There is never an 100% guarantee against cancer. However, my breeder breeds dogs that have had reduced cases of cancer in their lines. I was considering a dog from Ginny Boyle of Charms Goldens and my when I spoke to my breeder for the first time, she had told me "Be careful! Lot's of cancer!" My breeder and Ginny Boyle are arch rivals. I was also told that Ginny's dogs were aggressive.:no:


 
I'm not an expert and can't speak for breeders, but I would think any reputable breeder is going to ensure that their breedings don't include dogs whose pedigrees may be laden with cancer. I would be a little disheartened to find out otherwise.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Wanna See a Stressed Dog? Look at this Catalog Cover | mysmartpuppy.com

I thought this was interesting, in light of what we've been talking about in this thread.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Florabora said:


> Regarding goldens that don't like kids:
> 
> I have a friend who has a lovely male golden who DESPISES blonde girls. Oh, how sad. Wanna know why? When he was a 6 month old puppy my friend's 6 year old cousin (a blonde girl) got in his crate and stabbed him in the eye with a pencil. Poor pup lost his eye and, apparently, his love for certain kids.
> 
> ...


I can certainly see why in this case.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

booklady said:


> Some goldens who have historically been pretty bombproof with kids do find their tolerance level lowering as they get older.
> 
> Buddy, 13+, really does love kids and is great with them....but slowly, over the last year, he will do everything he can to get away from some of them. It's the shriekers and the ones who run up to him and poke and grab that he will try to avoid and I can't blame him. A quiet, respectful child...he loves, but in smaller doses than he used to. I've heard parents say "you can do this with him, he's a golden....but you can't act this way with other dogs". Geesh! Don't act that way with ANY dog!
> 
> I firmly believe Buddy would never intentionally hurt anyone, child or adult....but he will definitely try to escape the situation and may end up knocking a child over in his attempt.


My Lab/German Shepherd mix got grouchy as he aged as well. After loving children and tolerating everything as a puppy by them, he gradually lost his patience with them as he aged. This was certainly understandable.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> It's not just kids. My best friend and I went to a local pet store with Max and her Golden - Duke. Duke was 5 years old, absolutely wonderful dog, but he was not a kisser. Max would slobber the face of anyone who gets close enough, but not Duke. Both dogs were lying quietly on the floor, waiting for us to be done shopping. A man came around the corner and exclaimed about how good they were, etc. He got down on his knees to pet them, and of course, Max gave kisses with little encouragement. The guy said to Duke, "come on, boy, give me a kiss!" and stuck his face in Duke's. I said, "Duke really isn't much of a kisser."
> "oh, he'll kiss me!" says the guy.
> "umm, probably not," says I
> Duke was looking at the guy like he'd grown a third head.
> ...


I do agree that some people can be really obnoxious sometimes when it comes to wanting a dog to like them. Not all friendly goldens kiss people. Still, I don't think a bite is deserved or warranted unless the person is an all out wacko. There are some people who don't know better who want a comforting touch of canine companionship. I don't want to set up my dog to fail with such people.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

ShutterbugMom said:


> Not all children are horribly behaved and mean to dogs / puppies. I think this topic is really unfair to children...especially since many of you commenting on how horrible children are don't have any of your own.
> 
> Wow...I am really sad to read this thread because until now I had gotten really good advice on here.
> 
> ...


Your situation may be the exception and not the hard rule. I supervise every single child that comes in contact with my dogs extremely closely. Children have: Attempted to ride them, hit them, kicked at them, sat on them, and given them treats only to stick their hand back in their mouth to retrieve said treat. Children need to be taught how to behave with dogs and need to learn to be respectful. Out of EVERY SINGLE experience I had where someone or somedog was disciplined, it was ALWAYS the child. That being said, a dog needs to learn to be respectful of children and people in general. Perhaps your dog is only recieving this now.

Dogs react to you and will match the energy levels of the dogs or children around them. If your kids are running around acting bonkers a dog that views himself as part of the family is going to match that. If he didn't I would be concerned that he had not bonded with the family properly. That being said, if your children are running around playing expect the dog to want to join in.... and if you've ever watched dogs play you'd notice an awful lot of mouthing and biting going on.

Instead of you working discipline\obedience I think your 10 year old should begin starting obedience with the dog.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Originally Posted by *ShutterbugMom*
*"*still* has not learned to leave them alone"*

" If my husband or I discipline him he stops, but my 10 year old is not big enough or mean enough to do it himself"

If Scout "still" hasn't learned to leave them alone what are you doing to actually teach him instead of disciplining him?

What do you mean by disciplining him?

What do you mean by "mean enough"?


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> Wanna See a Stressed Dog? Look at this Catalog Cover | mysmartpuppy.com
> 
> I thought this was interesting, in light of what we've been talking about in this thread.


Nice article. Thanks for sharing. A cute picture is definitely not worth the stress caused to the dog or a potential bite.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> My breeder told me she was. I know that that may seem like a an overstated claim, but she sounded like she was speaking the factual truth. She is an AKC Breeder of Merit.


I was curious so I did some digging; the breeder's website says she breeds OFA excellent hips, but the link you provided to your (very gorgeous) Mercy's pedigree show no OFA excellent hips for at least 3 generations back.  I was too lazy to look beyond, but by taking a quick glance, I did not see any excellent hips in the past 5 generations either.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I was curious so I did some digging; the breeder's website says she breeds OFA
> 
> Really enjoy the pictures of Molly that appear in your signature.


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## canine_mommy (Dec 27, 2010)

solinvictus said:


> Originally Posted by *ShutterbugMom*
> *"*still* has not learned to leave them alone"*
> 
> " If my husband or I discipline him he stops, but my 10 year old is not big enough or mean enough to do it himself"
> ...


Great questions. I would like to know the answers too.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Max's Dad said:


> Really enjoy the pictures of Molly that appear in your signature.


Thank you  I love silly photos. Max is very handsome guy


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I was curious so I did some digging; the breeder's website says she breeds OFA excellent hips, but the link you provided to your (very gorgeous) Mercy's pedigree show no OFA excellent hips for at least 3 generations back.  I was too lazy to look beyond, but by taking a quick glance, I did not see any excellent hips in the past 5 generations either.


I did not know the distinction between excellent and non excellent of hip and elbow clearances showed up on k9data. It should show on the clearances themsleves. I can look in my folder tonight.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MercyMom said:


> I did not know the distinction between excellent and non excellent of hip and elbow clearances showed up on k9data. It should show on the clearances themsleves. I can look in my folder tonight.


If you read the OFA number for hips, you can see whether it's fair, good, or excellent. It's part of the code in the number that tells you the dog's gender, age at the time of the test, and rating. So if that number is posted on k9data, you can see it. The first letter after the number string is F, G, or E. That tells you if it's fair, good, or excellent. 

For example, Mercy's dad's OFA hip clearance number is GR90880G45MPI. It starts with a breed code for Golden Retriever (GR), then the serial number of the clearance (90880) then the rating (G for "good"), then his age at the time of the test (45 months), then his gender (M), then a code for whether the dog has a permanent identification (PI) like a chip or a tattoo. 

You can also generate a hip pedigree view that shows you several generations. Here's Mercy's 5-gen hip pedigree. If you scan the numbers, you can quickly see that there are no excellents in those five generations (62 ancestors). 

For elbows, there's just pass and fail, no good, fair, or excellent.


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## Suni52 (Jan 18, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> Even good, happy, friendly dogs can sometimes be unsure or uncomfortable in a situation. It is really important to always monitor your dogs body language as many people that thought their dog was fine with children ended up with a child bit. Goldens of good temperment may be less likely but no dog is absolutely perfect 100% of the time and all dogs have the potential to bite.
> 
> IMO, not only should a child/parent ask the owner if they can pet the dog but the dog should be able to choose if he/she wants petted and they will tell us by their body language and their choice should be respected. Goes for adults too.


I just had this conversation with a friend of mine the other day. I took Sadie to a Memorial Day party and she stayed calmly on her leash while everyone pet her. As my friend's daughter was petting her he said, that is so nice that you never have to worry about her biting a child. I said "quite the contrary. I don't think she ever would, but I never take that for granted. You always have to be on alert for it. No dog is fool proof, or child either."


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> If you read the OFA number for hips, you can see whether it's fair, good, or excellent. It's part of the code in the number that tells you the dog's gender, age at the time of the test, and rating. So if that number is posted on k9data, you can see it. The first letter after the number string is F, G, or E. That tells you if it's fair, good, or excellent.
> 
> For example, Mercy's dad's OFA hip clearance number is GR90880G45MPI. It starts with a breed code for Golden Retriever (GR), then the serial number of the clearance (90880) then the rating (G for "good"), then his age at the time of the test (45 months), then his gender (M), then a code for whether the dog has a permanent identification (PI) like a chip or a tattoo.
> 
> ...


Oh my. I'm afraid I've been had. :doh: Why would she claim excellent when her dogs are good and fair? When I go searching for my next Golden, I will know more of what to look for. What percentage of Goldens have excellent vs good hips I wonder? Unfortunately, my breeder and I are not on the best of terms right now.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

MercyMom said:


> Oh my. I'm afraid I've been had. :doh: Why would she claim excellent when her dogs are good and fair? When I go searching for my next Golden, I will know more of what to look for. What percentage of Goldens have excellent vs good hips I wonder? Unfortunately, my breeder and I are not on the best of terms right now.


I don't know the percentages among current dogs, but for reference's sake, Comet's is 3/62 excellents. However, there are some much older dogs on one side of the tree, when the OFA hip cert was just a "normal" rating, not FGE. Some of Mercy's ancestors also fall into that earlier period too. Depending on the age of the ancestry, comparing hip pedigrees isn't always apples-to-apples.

She might have meant "excellent" as a layperson's term, in that she only breeds dogs with strong structure and full clearances, rather than as an OFA-specific term referring to hips. I don't know anybody who excludes all dogs who don't receive an OFA-excellent. If you got hip-obsessive in breeding, you'd end up putting other, equally important characteristics at too low a priority. A dog with better overall structure and an OFA-Good would generally be a better dog to breed than a dog with an OFA-Excellent who lacked other elements of good form and movement.

I'm just giving her the benefit of the doubt here.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> She might have meant "excellent" as a layperson's term.


On her website she specifically says she breeds "OFA excellent" hips.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I don't know the percentages among current dogs, but for reference's sake, Comet's is 3/62 excellents. However, there are some much older dogs on one side of the tree, when the OFA hip cert was just a "normal" rating, not FGE. Some of Mercy's ancestors also fall into that earlier period too. Depending on the age of the ancestry, comparing hip pedigrees isn't always apples-to-apples.
> 
> She might have meant "excellent" as a layperson's term, in that she only breeds dogs with strong structure and full clearances, rather than as an OFA-specific term referring to hips. I don't know anybody who excludes all dogs who don't receive an OFA-excellent. If you got hip-obsessive in breeding, you'd end up putting other, equally important characteristics at too low a priority. A dog with better overall structure and an OFA-Good would generally be a better dog to breed than a dog with an OFA-Excellent who lacked other elements of good form and movement.
> 
> I'm just giving her the benefit of the doubt here.


Okay, that makes sense.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> Oh my. I'm afraid I've been had. :doh: Why would she claim excellent when her dogs are good and fair? When I go searching for my next Golden, I will know more of what to look for. What percentage of Goldens have excellent vs good hips I wonder? Unfortunately, my breeder and I are not on the best of terms right now.


I'm so sorry about this. I just thought you should know what I had found.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

MercyMom said:


> A Golden Retriever who isn't good with kids, please explain.


Duffy is a Golden/Sheltie mix, and his temperament is more Sheltie (poorly bred Sheltie) than Golden. He is suspicious by nature and thinks children are just wrong. It is not a question of socialization, we got him from a rescue at 11 weeks. He had been at the rescue from six weeks and his foster mom had a daughter who was bout six, Duffy seemed to love her. He continued to have positive interactions with children, but decided he just didn't like them.

Now I feel like I am dumping on Duffy, but he is a very nice boy, who adores his family, including his kitty. He will also protect small or weaker dogs against bully dogs. I love the little red dog and accept that he doesn't like children.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> On her website she specifically says she breeds "OFA excellent" hips.


Ah. I hadn't looked through the website. I did find the sentence "I am a TOP breeder of OFA Excellent hips in the Country." I think that statement is a little overblown, maybe, but I couldn't find any place that they claim to breed _only_ excellent hips. I did poke through a couple of pedigrees of recent breedings, and found a pretty normal hip pedigree with a pretty normal number of goods and fairs with the occasional excellent sprinkled through.

On the flip side, the breeder does seem to take hips very, very seriously, and there's clearly a lot of thought put into a long history of cleared hips and even the hips of breeding dogs' siblings. I like to see that.

I'm not defending the "TOP breeder of OFA Excellent hip in the Country" statement, but this breeder seems very careful about clearances and competes successfully. In all the external ways that I'd care about, this breeder seems to be a great place to get a dog. A couple of the brags do seem like overreaching, but overall, it seems like a great place to get a well-structured Golden, and I'd hate to see implications about their honesty based on that one statement.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Ah. I hadn't looked through the website. I did find the sentence "I am a TOP breeder of OFA Excellent hips in the Country." I think that statement is a little overblown, maybe, but I couldn't find any place that they claim to breed _only_ excellent hips. I did poke through a couple of pedigrees of recent breedings, and found a pretty normal hip pedigree with a pretty normal number of goods and fairs with the occasional excellent sprinkled through.
> 
> On the flip side, the breeder does seem to take hips very, very seriously, and there's clearly a lot of thought put into a long history of cleared hips and even the hips of breeding dogs' siblings. I like to see that.
> 
> I'm not defending the "TOP breeder of OFA Excellent hip in the Country" statement, but this breeder seems very careful about clearances and competes successfully. In all the external ways that I'd care about, this breeder seems to be a great place to get a dog. A couple of the brags do seem like overreaching, but overall, it seems like a great place to get a well-structured Golden, and I'd hate to see implications about their honesty based on that one statement.



I agree, but it sounds extremely misleading. It seemed that MercyMom was very proud of the "fact" that her breeder breeds the best hips in the country and trusted the breeder because she was an "AKC breeder of merit". She put a lot of stock in that statement. I don't think potential buyers should have to nitpick and scrutinize a breeder's wording to get the truth. It's almost just as bad as being dishonest. Molly's mother has OFA excellent hips, and that was never used as a selling point.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Selli-Belle said:


> Duffy is a Golden/Sheltie mix, and his temperament is more Sheltie (poorly bred Sheltie) than Golden. He is suspicious by nature and thinks children are just wrong. It is not a question of socialization, we got him from a rescue at 11 weeks. He had been at the rescue from six weeks and his foster mom had a daughter who was bout six, Duffy seemed to love her. He continued to have positive interactions with children, but decided he just didn't like them.
> 
> Now I feel like I am dumping on Duffy, but he is a very nice boy, who adores his family, including his kitty. He will also protect small or weaker dogs against bully dogs. I love the little red dog and accept that he doesn't like children.


You're not dumping on Duffy at all... you're being realistic about his limitations. Thank Heaven that he ended up in your home and not one where he is forced to be in daily contact with children. And you are absolutely correct, a dog can be socialized properly and trained and healthy and still have no tolerance for children. This absolutely does include Golden Retrievers. 

One of the most difficult and painful things I have ever been through in my life was facing the fact that my last golden, Duncan, could not be trusted with children. It made me very aware that any dog, even a golden, is still just an animal and we need to be mindful of that in all situations.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I agree, but it sounds extremely misleading. It seemed that MercyMom was very proud of the "fact" that her breeder breeds the best hips in the country and trusted the breeder because she was an "AKC breeder of merit". She put a lot of stock in that statement. I don't think potential buyers should have to nitpick and scrutinize a breeder's wording to get the truth. It's almost just as bad as being dishonest. Molly's mother has OFA excellent hips, and that was never used as a selling point.


I agree with you. I just hesitate to write negative stuff about a breeder who clearly does so much right.

My dogs' clearance pedigrees were definitely a big part of the selling point, but I went into both situations with a lot of knowledge about clearances, and both breeders knew that. I'm trying to be sensitive to the fact that it's really hard to say how much of the deception was a genuine miscommunication with a new, non-expert client and how much was a misleading brag. I'm just erring on the side of giving the breeder the benefit of the doubt, especially since so much seems to be right with that program.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> I agree with you. I just hesitate to write negative stuff about a breeder who clearly does so much right.
> 
> My dogs' clearance pedigrees were definitely a big part of the selling point, but I went into both situations with a lot of knowledge about clearances, and both breeders knew that. I'm trying to be sensitive to the fact that it's really hard to say how much of the deception was a genuine miscommunication with a new, non-expert client and how much was a misleading brag. I'm just erring on the side of giving the breeder the benefit of the doubt, especially since so much seems to be right with that program.


Yup. It does require some knowledge to get the facts. If I were considering buying from her, I would've taken that statement with a grain of salt and looked at the pedigree and clearances myself. I would've liked what I saw and I would've bought from her. So MercyMom, please don't worry too much about it.


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## kenitra (Apr 22, 2011)

I agree with all of this. My first golden -Barney - best dog in the world - I got from the pound at about 10 months. He ate all of my sports equipment in the garage when I went to work. We got through that phase and got him friends to play with while I was gone so he wasn't bored. My latest golden - Grover - best dog in the world - was 6 months and ate a few pairs of shoes while I wasn't watching. Meanwhile my family had a Bernese puppy, I dubbed "mighty bitey" for a while. He is a great and wonderful dog and is very well behaved and trained by my sister in law. He learned not to mouth people but it takes work, patience and time. All of these are spectacular companions, great representatives of their breeds, but go through the learning phase. If you teach they learn.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

MercyMom said:


> A Golden Retriever who isn't good with kids, please explain.


 
Riley isn't good with kids. Or I should say, I assume that he wouldn't be. He's shy and wary of adult strangers and will get snarky if he feels threatened, so I'm certainly not going to test our luck with a child to see how he would do. He's not crazy about other dogs, either. (Though lately, he's been showing more curiosity than anything.)
Yes, he was socialized. This is just who he is and I'm quite thankful that we chose each other. I hate to think about what might have happened to him, had he gone to someone who wanted a "typical" Golden. I hate to think about what happened to his nine littermates, if they're anything like him.
Funny thing is, when I saw the ad for them, the first thing I noticed was the big, bold-type headline: "Great with kids!" I remember getting annoyed and thinking, 'Yes, because they're all just born that way.' This was a woman who had no business breeding dogs in the first place, implying some kind of guarantee that these puppies would love kids. What a recipe for disaster! 

By contrast, our last German Shepherd (who was supposed to be wary of strangers) was a total mush who loved _everybody_. Adults, kids, other dogs, cats... he was just wonderful with everyone and everything. Only when he got a little older and got sick did he start to get grouchy.

We used to tell people, 'Don't worry about the Shepherd - it's the Golden you have to watch out for.' People usually thought we were kidding. We weren't.

So there ya go... lol. They're all individuals and you can't always know exactly how they're going to turn out.


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## Dexter12 (Feb 10, 2012)

I have this shirt that I wore a lot when Dex was smaller and he was firmly in his land shark phase. The arms are torn open everywhere, it's ripped and there are buttons missing. I've grown up with a family dog and I remember their puppies stage because I had the responsibility of looking after them, but when we got Dex it felt like starting anew. I wouldn't ever give up my favorite torn shirt because it reminds me of the growth that we've experience with Dexter. No matter how much trouble he used to get into or things he chewed up he's the dog we picked and I would never give up on him. It's sometimes hard to sit back and remind yourself that he's a baby and he still needs guidance but this is what we signed up for as dog parents. He's now in his "teenaged years" and although it can be trying at times but I think he's a fantastic dog and I can't wait to meet his fully matured adult self.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I'm so sorry about this. I just thought you should know what I had found.


That is quite allright my dear. It is not your fault that the truth speaks for itself. I believed her. I tend to be a sucker, but at the same time I did alot of homework researching breeders for months and visiting different breeders before picking her. I was trying to make my point last week about the importance of Goldens having sweet natured friendly temperaments using my breeder as an example, when lo and behold, I find out last Thursday that my *own *Golden Mercy has aggression problems (resource guarding).  Talk about humiliating embarrasment! Although, my breeder is apparently incorrect about the hips, I don't blame her for Mercy having this problem. I am now in the process of learning that even well bred Goldens can have issues. Am I jumping for joy over this? Of course not! I love my dear Mercy and will patiently work with her and give her the grace and encouragement she needs to build her confidence. Her aggression is not okay. I still do not excuse aggression in Goldens including my own. I have a challenge on my hands. I will work with her and train her to become more reliable around precious possessions. I have a personal trainer who is also a K9 cop coming to my house tomorrow. He has already told me that each dog is an individual just like humans. I will applaud Mercy's strengths while having grace with her weaknesses like any mother who loves their kid should. I will not let this discourage me. I will keep working with her to become a therapy dog as I have planned all along. I hope Mercy doesn't flunk in her AKC S.T.A.R. puppy class because of her showing agression towards another dog last week during class. I will just take it over again if I have to. I pray that with hard work and determination, Mercy will live up to her name and become well qualified for therapy service. I can see clearly that no dog even goldens are 100 % reliable, but I will work with Mercy to ensure that her risk of aggression is reduced to an accepable level.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Selli-Belle said:


> Duffy is a Golden/Sheltie mix, and his temperament is more Sheltie (poorly bred Sheltie) than Golden. He is suspicious by nature and thinks children are just wrong. It is not a question of socialization, we got him from a rescue at 11 weeks. He had been at the rescue from six weeks and his foster mom had a daughter who was bout six, Duffy seemed to love her. He continued to have positive interactions with children, but decided he just didn't like them.
> 
> Now I feel like I am dumping on Duffy, but he is a very nice boy, who adores his family, including his kitty. He will also protect small or weaker dogs against bully dogs. I love the little red dog and accept that he doesn't like children.


That's quite allright dear. Thanks for answering. It is more understandable about Shelties not liking children, not that I would encourage them to act that way. Shelties are known for their shyness and poorly bred ones can be suspicious of strangers.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Ah. I hadn't looked through the website. I did find the sentence "I am a TOP breeder of OFA Excellent hips in the Country." I think that statement is a little overblown, maybe, but I couldn't find any place that they claim to breed _only_ excellent hips. I did poke through a couple of pedigrees of recent breedings, and found a pretty normal hip pedigree with a pretty normal number of goods and fairs with the occasional excellent sprinkled through.
> 
> On the flip side, the breeder does seem to take hips very, very seriously, and there's clearly a lot of thought put into a long history of cleared hips and even the hips of breeding dogs' siblings. I like to see that.
> 
> I'm not defending the "TOP breeder of OFA Excellent hip in the Country" statement, but this breeder seems very careful about clearances and competes successfully. In all the external ways that I'd care about, this breeder seems to be a great place to get a dog. A couple of the brags do seem like overreaching, but overall, it seems like a great place to get a well-structured Golden, and I'd hate to see implications about their honesty based on that one statement.


Thank you. On behalf of my breeder, I am flattered! It is such a relief to know that I still chose an excellent breeder.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Riley isn't good with kids. Or I should say, I assume that he wouldn't be. He's shy and wary of adult strangers and will get snarky if he feels threatened, so I'm certainly not going to test our luck with a child to see how he would do. He's not crazy about other dogs, either. (Though lately, he's been showing more curiosity than anything.)
> Yes, he was socialized. This is just who he is and I'm quite thankful that we chose each other. I hate to think about what might have happened to him, had he gone to someone who wanted a "typical" Golden. I hate to think about what happened to his nine littermates, if they're anything like him.
> Funny thing is, when I saw the ad for them, the first thing I noticed was the big, bold-type headline: "Great with kids!" I remember getting annoyed and thinking, 'Yes, because they're all just born that way.' This was a woman who had no business breeding dogs in the first place, implying some kind of guarantee that these puppies would love kids. What a recipe for disaster!
> 
> ...


The funny thing is in light of the discussion in this thread, and in light of finding out that my own golden also has issues, I was thinking of getting a German Shepherd as my next dog. German Shepherds are my other favorite breed. I love them for their loyalty, obedience and faithfulness. There is an adorable German Shepherd puppy in my AKC S.T.A.R. puppy class and as I was reeling in my disappointment over my pup's behavior last Thursday and discouragement over the harsh reality of some goldens not liking children, I saw a video of a very loving German Shepherd greeting a soldier when he comes home from being in Iraq. I ordered a book about how dogs are an example of how God's Kingdom is supposed to be like and guess what breed is on the cover: A German Shepherd. My last dog was a mixed German Shepherd and even though he had his own issues as well, he was such an awesome dog. He was grumpier as he aged too, but as a young dog he absolutely adored children. He was also part Lab.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

MercyMom said:


> The funny thing is in light of the discussion in this thread, and in light of finding out that my own golden also has issues, I was thinking of getting a German Shepherd as my next dog. German Shepherds are my other favorite breed. I love them for their loyalty, obedience and faithfulness. There is an adorable German Shepherd puppy in my AKC S.T.A.R. puppy class and as I was reeling in my disappointment over my pup's behavior last Thursday and discouragement over the harsh reality of some goldens not liking children, I saw a video of a very loving German Shepherd greeting a soldier when he comes home from being in Iraq. I ordered a book about how dogs are an example of how God's Kingdom is supposed to be like and guess what breed is on the cover: A German Shepherd. My last dog was a mixed German Shepherd and even though he had his own issues as well, he was such an awesome dog. He was grumpier as he aged too, but as a young dog he absolutely adored children. He was also part Lab.


GSDs are incredible dogs. Or at least, they CAN be. I grew up with them, so I've spent the better part of 43 years with Shepherds. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly and I still love them and still think they're amazing. 

They're definitely not for everyone, though. As much as I miss having one, and as badly as I get the bug every now and then, I don't know that they're for _me_, anymore. I know I wouldn't take the chance on a puppy again. If we ever decided to get another GSD it would have to be a rescue. I'd want about a 2 or 3-year-old so I could see his temperament and know, at least pretty much, what we'd be getting into. I wouldn't mind dealing with some issues, but our living situation doesn't allow us much latitude, there. We rent a condo-style apartment. It works for us and we love it, but it doesn't give us the freedom we used to have. Whether it's right or wrong, if a Golden growls or snarls at someone, chances are it's going to get a pass. It's a Golden Retriever - people tend not to take them seriously. If a German Shepherd growls or snarls at someone, that person is likely to be in the office within ten minutes, complaining about a vicious dog. So, we'd have to be real careful about that!


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