# When do (should?) breeders get AKC papers for a litter?



## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

It's been a bit over four (4) weeks since we brought Kona home, and we're still waiting on AKC papers. I checked online, and it sounds like AKC could take up-to-18-working-days to send out papers. So, given the current situation with COVID-19 shutdowns and distancing mandates, I can see it taking a bit longer.

But...

It's a bit surprising to me that the breeder didn't already have AKC papers "in hand", since Kona was at 20-weeks when we brought her home. Is this a "wait for the new owner to provide a name" thing? Or, should I expect some "registered puppy" form, which we then use to submit an actual name, etc.?

We have kept in contact with the breeder, and it seems we're waiting on AKC.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

I'm a little confused, did you get Kona's paperwork? Or did the breeder register Kona for you and you're waiting for Kona's registration certificate?


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> I'm a little confused, did you get Kona's paperwork? Or did the breeder register Kona for you and you're waiting for Kona's registration certificate?


It sounds like we are waiting for paperwork, so that we can then register Kona. We've been in contact with the breeder, and nothing seems "amiss". Just it "seemed like" maybe "getting the paperwork" is something that could have already been done.

We had a decent experience with the breeder, but, sometimes, it seems like logistics take a bit longer than I would like.  Then again, I've been told (more than once) that I'm not the easiest person to satisfy when it comes to schedules.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Ah. So, the AKC can take awhile to get the litter paperwork, the breeder usually submits the litter for registration either when they're born or 2 - 3 weeks after and they know the puppies are strong. 

Anyway, the litter paperwork will get to the breeder within 2 - 4 weeks USUALLY, I'm not sure what is going on with Covid. The breeder then gives the paperwork to each owner when the puppy goes home. In our case, our breeder registered Felix for us. 

So, your breeder should definitely have Kona's registration paperwork, the paperwork should not be going to you as you didn't breed the litter. However, if you have the registration numbers of the parents, you may be able to contact the AKC about the state of the litter registration paperwork.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

SoCalEngr said:


> It sounds like we are waiting for paperwork, so that we can then register Kona.


I’m not positive, but I believe the breeders should have the paperwork...
They register the entire litter after they are born and then each puppy goes home with their own individual papers.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> Ah. So, the AKC can take awhile to get the litter paperwork, the breeder usually submits the litter for registration either when they're born or 2 - 3 weeks after and they know the puppies are strong.


Ergo, part of my confusion about the timing/delays.

Kona was already at 18 weeks when we decided to get her. I have to assume that "other litter mates" had already found homes. So, it would make sense (to me) that the litter had already been registered.

At this point, I figure it's a "wait and see" scenario.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

SoCalEngr said:


> Ergo, part of my confusion about the timing/delays.
> 
> Kona was already at 18 weeks when we decided to get her. I have to assume that "other litter mates" had already found homes. So, it would make sense (to me) that the litter had already been registered.
> 
> At this point, I figure it's a "wait and see" scenario.


Your breeder should DEFINITELY have the paperwork and thensome. And if they don't have the paperwork, they should know why there is a delay in getting the paperwork.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Did they tell you they were waiting on the AKC? That seems odd to me, unless they registered Kona and the paperwork has to be switched over to you?


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Our breeders give us the papers to register our dog, when we picked him up at 8 weeks.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

SoCalEngr said:


> It's been a bit over four (4) weeks since we brought Kona home, and we're still waiting on AKC papers. I checked online, and it sounds like AKC could take up-to-18-working-days to send out papers. So, given the current situation with COVID-19 shutdowns and distancing mandates, I can see it taking a bit longer.
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


If I understand your question correctly you are asking about the process of getting your puppy reg. with AKC. 
When the litter is born the breeder can go online and register the litter which acknowledges AKC they have puppies. Like it's been said this can happen anytime in the 1st month or so but should have happened long before picking Kona up. 

MOST breeders provide you with an individual puppy reg. (blue) form for you to send it.

This was one of those simple questions I failed to ask my older girls breeder as this is the way all my previous pups were registered. 
This breeder registered the litter but demanded that SHE would register each puppy as soon as I provided her with a AKC name to put on the application. I provided this info. but 5 weeks later still no papers. 
She had a host of excuses/reasons for not having done so. So again I waited. A month later papers finally arrived and she had decided to make herself a co-owner. According to AKC she cannot do this without my permission. Breeder tells me she co-owns all her puppies, this was a lie. 
After many complaints filed and many phone calls AKC finally said the breeder checked the "owner approval" box by mistake and the breeder rescinded her position as co-owner. This simple process took another 2 months and it was 4 yrs ago so Covid was not a factor.

My situation aside, if you did not receive a blue puppy registration form you will need to get the breeder to send you one. If the breeder has taken the position of filing all the puppy registrations (after you provided a reg. name) you will need to contact the breeder to get this done.

Some people never get a response from the breeder, in this case you can appeal to the AKC to get them but must provide sire/dam information and proof of purchase.

My last pup was 16 weeks old and when I picked up the pup Prism had all the paper work showing the pup had already been registered, litter reg. so all that was needed was assuming ownership for both AKC and the microchip. Easy peasy. 

There have been lay offs at AKC so pretty sure anything that is done electronically will go much faster than having to get them involved. I would still expect it to take a couple of months from the time it is filed. AKC will send you an electronic copy and a hard copy will come later.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sometimes there are complications and extra hoops depending on the number of people involved....

Breeder sometimes is at the mercy of waiting for the stud owner to fill out and sign off their portion of the paperwork being sent to AKC. If the litter had been a surgical ai, that means that breeder, stud owner, AND the vet all have stuff to fill out and sign off on. 

If sire has been used a number of times, or is foreign registration - there's dna tests that need to be done, required by AKC.

If dog was purchased at 4 months or whatever - there might be an extra complication of transfer of ownership. 

Also - AKC might be shortstaffed right now.

If breeder owns both the stud and bitch and did the litter at home - probably no excuse for not having everything taken care of and paperwork sent home at 8 weeks with the new owners.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> Breeder sometimes is at the mercy of waiting for the stud owner to fill out and sign off their portion of the paperwork being sent to AKC.


This is done online and literally takes a minute.



> If the litter had been a surgical ai, that means that breeder, stud owner, AND the vet all have stuff to fill out and sign off on.


Not true. AKC doesn't care how the litter is bred. Only caveat is a "frequently used sire" or any litter bred via frozen semen must have AKC DNA file on the sire.

AKC is traditionally very quick to handle registration issues. That's their business. There's no excuse for you to not have your individual registration application by now, other than sloppy handling by the breeder. Only exception may be a sire with a non-AKC foreign registration.

Canadian Kennel Club is a totally different ball of wax. They take an unbearably long time to do anything.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> This is done online and literally takes a minute.
> 
> Not true. AKC doesn't care how the litter is bred. Only caveat is a "frequently used sire" or any litter bred via frozen semen must have AKC DNA file on the sire


*** I think the technical thing is if AKC doesn't know, AKC doesn't need to know - and just cut that corner. 

However, per the below, you do need to jump hoops if you are being honest re litter was done by surgical AI and vet was involved.










http://images.akc.org/pdf/freshse.pdf <- this is the form that all 3 parties (if breeder, stud owner, and vet) need to all work together to fill out. Hopefully it's something that is done early and/or when litter has been confirmed....


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

By the time the puppy is 18 weeks old...and now a few more weeks that you've had her...registration should definitely be available to you. Something is wrong. What does the breeder say? What's their excuse?

When we send puppies home at 9 weeks, we sit down with the buyer and register the puppy online that day. They get an email confirmation the same day, and I think it has a registration certificate and a 3-gen pedigree. As breeder, we get a discount for registering the entire litter, so that's what we do, and the registration is part of what you get when we send a puppy home with you. And that's at 8-9 weeks. It has now been more than twice as long for your breeder. And I know that litter's parents, and there should not be a problem. 

Something is up.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The whole 'frozen' and 'surgical' pieces don't matter in this case, but yes, as recently as last fall, there IS additional paperwork for those scenarios. 
The normal breeding scenario is this: breeder whelps litter, breeder registers the litter. Within 2 weeks but usually way faster AKC mails individual applications to the breeder to, in theory, give out when puppies go home. 
If your breeder is saying they do not have those individual applications, that implies they did not register the litter recently. It's a low cost thing, like, $2 per puppy and something like $25 on top of that so a litter of 5 would cost $35 to get the paperwork sent to the breeder.
Then the buyer (or the breeder, if the breeder does it for everyone) sends in the individual apps, for a cost of $35 or so, and they email and drop in the PO mail to the new owner. If it's done online it is literally less than 10 minutes to get the email version. 
I am suspicious of your scenario SoCal- there is no reason for the application not to be in your hands when you leave w an 18 week old puppy- none at all . What I can imagine is said puppy went home @ 8 weeks, was returned, you weren't told, they sent in the papers to transfer to themselves so they can then transfer to you, and maybe that'd take a couple-three weeks but even that is a stretch. If you have sire X dam info, call AKC and ask -tell them you never got papers- their number is 919-233-9767


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Puddles, the blue form hasn't been around in so long I had forgotten it til I read your post! I remember that paper even had a weird feel to it... but ..nowadays, it is white, with a yellow/red/blue outline to the various sections...thanks for that nice memory!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> *** I think the technical thing is if AKC doesn't know, AKC doesn't need to know - and just cut that corner.
> 
> However, per the below, you do need to jump hoops if you are being honest re litter was done by surgical AI and vet was involved.


What if you breed your bitch all to the same sire via vaginal AI, natural then a surgical?
I've never had to fill out any special paperwork depending on what method of AI we've used. Last year alone I owned the sire for at least a dozen litters. It is very common to breed several different methods for coverage of one litter.
Maybe there's something different the breeder has to indicate but as the stud dog owner, we simply don't have anything different to do. Frozen being the exception but I haven't done one of those in probably ten years.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

technically, you are supposed to divulge an AI and fill out a form- which the vet should fill out- and most people skip that if the stud dog is living. https://images.akc.org/pdf/semenfe.pdf


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

DanaRuns said:


> By the time the puppy is 18 weeks old...and now a few more weeks that you've had her...registration should definitely be available to you. Something is wrong. What does the breeder say? What's their excuse?


I was a little surprised when we showed up to pick up Kona and there was no AKC paperwork, as this was 2-weeks after putting a deposit down on a puppy that was 18-weeks old. The breeder (or, more accurately) the person managing the operation for the breeder, seemed to be a-bit-behind on "procedural stuff" throughout our 2-week interaction.
When we picked Kona up, we were told that the breeder would "submit paperwork" (probably should have dug a li'l deeper, but...) and would forward this as soon as AKC responded. We texted earlier this week, and the response was "still waiting on AKC".



DanaRuns said:


> When we send puppies home at 9 weeks, we sit down with the buyer and register the puppy online that day. They get an email confirmation the same day, and I think it has a registration certificate and a 3-gen pedigree. As breeder, we get a discount for registering the entire litter, so that's what we do, and the registration is part of what you get when we send a puppy home with you. And that's at 8-9 weeks. It has now been more than twice as long for your breeder. And I know that litter's parents, and there should not be a problem.
> 
> Something is up.


Yes, we're now at 24 weeks for Kona, 7 weeks since we put a deposit down, and 5 weeks since we picked her up. While I'm not familiar with the process, this doesn't seem like I how I would expect the timing to work out. We do have the contract with identification of sire/dam with names and AKC #s, and my prior experience with this breeder gives me no reason not to trust their intent, but a bit of concern about some of their organizational skills (especially given that their set up looks to be a commercial breeder).

For-what-it's-worth, the breeder doesn't seem to be evasive, and has asked if we'd be willing to bring Kona back up for a visit when the AKC paperwork does come in.

I may, since I have the AKC #s on the parents, pursue the matter from the AKC-end of the pipe and see where things are at.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

That's probably best- just ask AKC yourself. 
They are working, they only laid off the field reps.. everyone else is still working, and they have always worked from home (the phone people) so nothing has changed on that front. 
Now- if for some reason the litter was never registered, that would be problematic.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> That's probably best- just ask AKC yourself.


Turns out, I can't do that with just the AKC#. I also need a date, and I don't have that information. So, I'm back to hurry-up-and-wait, with periodic "what's up" pings on the breeder.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Huh? You should be able to call them, tell them your puppy is however old she is, and that you have not gotten a registration application from the breeder. They will ask sire and dam reg names. Maybe the #'s, but you can get that from OFA or k9data. And then they will tell you if the litter was registered or not.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Okay. Let's say I am still optimistic, but a little-more-concerned than before...

I found the following lookup on AKC's website:








Since I already have the AKC#s, I was able to do a transaction lookup and get the "recording date". I plugged in the registration number and recording date, hit [SEARCH], and the following message was displayed:








I am assuming the registration number is correct, as I was able to look it up and verify when it was last processed, and the registered name matches my contract paperwork. The lookup result (with identifying info redacted) is shown below:








So, one of two scenarios seems "reasonable":

The "recording date" is not the "Dam Cert Issue Date" being requested on the first form
The litter was not registered
Possibility #2 has me asking questions with no comforting answers. I realize any comments at this point are "all conjecture", but "conjecture from the breeder community" seems way better than "conjecture from a confused buyer".

Any thoughts/advice? Maybe, on a more positive note, why would a breeder choose to individually register the puppies vice registering the entire litter?


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

SoCalEngr said:


> Maybe, on a more positive note, why would a breeder choose to individually register the puppies vice registering the entire litter?


My understanding is that the breeder has to register the entire litter with AKC (like a "hey I had a litter and there's <insert number here> puppies") and then each individual puppy has to be registered with AKC. 

I just checked Kaizer's registration paper and used the AKC form status search to see if the recording date matched what is on his registration paper - it does. My understanding of the dam cert. issue date is the date listed on the registration paper.

I looked up Kaizer's dam in the litter application search (knowing that nothing would come up because she hasn't had a litter in years). I did not get that same error message, so perhaps that eases some concerns?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The date is wrong- there is no way to search the issue date and get that date, as that date are the keys to the kingdom on dogs (never post your dog's AKC cert without covering over that date- litters can be attributed to your dog with that date).


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Canadian Kennel Club is a totally different ball of wax. They take an unbearably long time to do anything.


Understatement of the year. I get an email about once or twice a month about how their system has imploded and so this or that or another thing is impossible to process right now. I actually went to their head office in person when I was getting Shala her CKC registration (she is a dual AKC/CKC citizen) because I just thought it would be quicker, and I felt like they had no clue what was going on. It was bizarre. They actually told me I had to go away and fill out forms and send them in. They couldn't take them in person.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Update on our AKC registration-situation...

I was able to contact the AKC, and they did a lookup based on the dam's registration number. After verifying the registered name, AKC's customer rep informed me that there are no litters registered to this golden. This is six (6) months after the litter was born, so I'm wondering, "did no one else ask for AKC papers?"

I called the breeder, and am waiting to have a clear-the-air discussion on what, exactly, is going on. In fairness, the breeder called back but I missed the call. So, we're playing phone tag (not unusual).

Seriously though. If you're breeding AKC registered dogs, why would you not register the litter?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

SoCalEngr said:


> Update on our AKC registration-situation...
> 
> I was able to contact the AKC, and they did a lookup based on the dam's registration number. After verifying the registered name, AKC's customer rep informed me that there are no litters registered to this golden. This is six (6) months after the litter was born, so I'm wondering, "did no one else ask for AKC papers?"
> 
> ...


My guess would be that the bitch was sold on limited registration, but the AKC maybe (?) would have told you that if that was the case. Otherwise, maybe the very cheap cost it is to register the litter? I can’t think of many reasons not to.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Then there is also the issue that this breeder “duped” you into thinking (and paying for!!) an AKC registered puppy when they knew full well that the litter wasn’t registered.

There was a breeder in my area selling puppies without registration because the bitch was bred underage. They didn’t want to register the litter to have proof out there that they bred her before she was two, though their excuse was “she doesn’t have final clearances yet so we can’t register the puppies”. Not that that’s the case with your breeder, but it seems like when puppies should be AKC registered and they are not, usually something is up.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Emmdenn said:


> Then there is also the issue that this breeder “duped” you into thinking (and paying for!!) an AKC registered puppy when they knew full well that the litter wasn’t registered..


The dam was born in April of 2017, and the litter was whelped(?) in Nov 2019. And, all the OFA certs are dated from Apr-Jul of 2019.

This breeder has been fairly accommodating to my requests for information, and provided AKC #s up front (which allowed me to do my OFA/K9Data research. So, I'm not uber-concerned about this breeder "hiding things". They have, however, seemed a bit dis-organized. So, while I am curious/confused as to why a breeder who specializes in goldens would not have registered the litter, I'm currently willing to give them the benefit-of-the-doubt. Undeniably, it'd be way better if all the paperwork was taken care of beforehand, and benefit-of-the-doubt didn't need to be a factor. 😉


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

SoCalEngr said:


> The dam was born in April of 2017, and the litter was whelped(?) in Nov 2019. And, all the OFA certs are dated from Apr-Jul of 2019.
> 
> This breeder has been fairly accommodating to my requests for information, and provided AKC #s up front (which allowed me to do my OFA/K9Data research. So, I'm not uber-concerned about this breeder "hiding things". They have, however, seemed a bit dis-organized. So, while I am curious/confused as to why a breeder who specializes in goldens would not have registered the litter, I'm currently willing to give them the benefit-of-the-doubt. Undeniably, it'd be way better if all the paperwork was taken care of beforehand, and benefit-of-the-doubt didn't need to be a factor. 😉


I think the part that confuses me more is that, assuming they have both the sire and the dam, and know that you know they litter is not registered, why they don't go online and register it right now. It's a very fast and simple process. The benefit of the doubt factor is definitely good, but if you haven't talked to them on the phone yet, maybe ask why they still haven't done it. Unless they lost the certificate issue dates for the sire and dam and have to get those back from the AKC (?), it is a really fast process and doesn't require a whole lot of time.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

An update on where things stand (it's "good news", not "great", but "good")...

I got a chance to talk with the breeder (or, more accurately, the person running the breeder's business). As previously mentioned, things seem a little disorganized, but all questions were answered.

So...

"Normally", this breeder requests litter registrations 4-to-6 weeks after a litter is whelped. This allows for the chance that one-or-more puppies may not survive.
For whatever reason, this didn't happen "right away". My math says 4-to-6 weeks for a mid-November litter puts everything smack-in-the-middle of the Christmas holidays. While I have seen the online form, and recognize that it's "not that much time", I can understand the timing.
This got complicated by the actual breeder being unavailable to do the registration. For privacy reasons, I won't go into the reasons, but I'm satisfied. Granted, I believe one-thing-piled-up-on-another, and things could/should have been handled earlier. But, there seems to be nothing nefarious, just a bit of disorganization that became a bigger issue when compounded by unavoidable circumstances.
When everything "got settled" and paperwork was submitted, it seems that the AKC lost-the-bubble on the paperwork. Again, with the current circumstances, this is understandable. But, it also means that the paperwork had to be resubmitted and a new clock was started.
The person running the breeder's business (kennel manager?) was very upfront, and admitted that we're not the only people asking for our AKC paperwork, nor the only litter that they are having to push through AKC.
Bottom line?
If I do this again, ask for information on the litter registration as well as OFA clearances.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think if you have documentation that shows the sire and dam's registration, and you have a contract that shows you purchased a puppy that came from those dogs, AKC can probably register the puppy for you. 

It sounds like you are getting the run around from the breeder. Nice of you to be patient and understanding, but bottom line is you paid for an AKC registered puppy, and they have not provided that registration to you. It's been way too long and they are making excuses at this point. 

I hope you get your registration eventually. Kudos to you for your patience.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

mylissyk said:


> It sounds like you are getting the run around from the breeder. Nice of you to be patient and understanding, but bottom line is you paid for an AKC registered puppy, and they have not provided that registration to you. It's been way too long and they are making excuses at this point.


I wouldn't call it "the run around" as much as "they put all their eggs in one basket, and can't remember where they put the basket". The breeder has been very accommodating with information, and a bit disorganized at "execution". So far, the pattern hasn't changed, so I'm not too alarmed. 

And, when all-is-said-and-done, we're not going to show or breed Kona. With, or without, AKC paperwork, I fear I'd be in deep kimchee with my better-half if there were any hint of sending Kona back. 🤣 The AKC registration is just so that we are able to post/report the results of her eye/heart/hip/elbow exams to OFA and K9Data. The exams are for our benefit and peace of mind. Posting the results is more so that anyone else researching her parents have info on the health and soundness of offspring.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

SoCalEngr said:


> I wouldn't call it "the run around" as much as "they put all their eggs in one basket, and can't remember where they put the basket". The breeder has been very accommodating with information, and a bit disorganized at "execution". So far, the pattern hasn't changed, so I'm not too alarmed.
> 
> And, when all-is-said-and-done, we're not going to show or breed Kona. With, or without, AKC paperwork, I fear I'd be in deep kimchee with my better-half if there were any hint of sending Kona back. 🤣 The AKC registration is just so that we are able to post/report the results of her eye/heart/hip/elbow exams to OFA and K9Data. The exams are for our benefit and peace of mind. Posting the results is more so that anyone else researching her parents have info on the health and soundness of offspring.


I think the issue here is that you paid for an AKC registered puppy. No it may not be pertinent to any aspect of Kona's life, as she doesn't technically need to be registered to even dog dog sports or obedience, etc. But it is what you paid for and if they can't give you registration paperwork, they owe you a refund for charging for an AKC registered puppy.

They could be being honest with you or they could be giving you the run around, but it has been 5 months since December. The AKC is not slow and haven't slowed down any part of their process. Whether or not there is something insidious going on is debatable and I applaud you for being patient, but I would be very skeptical about getting AKC papers at this point. I know otherregistriess are incredibly slow (ABCA, CKC), but with the advent of everything being online, I don't understand how they could not have registered the litter.

The breeder SHOULD be the one to do it, but the kennel manager can (and often does) as long as they have the registration numbers and certificate dates of the dogs. If the breeder has lost either of those, yes, it shows a good deal of disorganization, but it should NOT take this long to receive those. 

I'm also unsure how the AKC lost their initial litter application? Or request for whatever paperwork they were missing? I'm not sure what it is they're missing. It takes 20 minutes to fill out an application and if the AKC lost this online application (?), it is easily redone. If the breeder lost the registration certificate for both breeding animals, then they would mail in another form that I could see taking maybe 2 - 4 weeks being generous. Then it just takes the 20 minutes to register the litter.

There is a lot going on in the world, but a kennel program large enough to have a kennel manager should have better record keeping. My dog's all have certificates on my computer saved and a hard copy in a filing cabinet.

All in all, Kona sounds like an absolutely wonderful puppy, but if you paid for an AKC puppy and never get paperwork, you deserve some money back.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> All in all, Kona sounds like an absolutely wonderful puppy, but if you paid for an AKC puppy and never get paperwork, you deserve some money back.


If it comes to that, well... They're long, convoluted stories, but I've had the opportunity to make the entire sales staff at a car dealership do an about-face on a deal-gone-south, and have a real estate brand put pressure on a franchisee to "do the right thing" (although that one ended up with me being declared persona-non-grata by the REA's wife/office-mgr).

But, we've had a good relationship with the people at the breeder, and I prefer not to "go alpha" unless need be. But, if I have to, I will. In the meantime, nothing hurt by waiting a bit more...and I still have the contract (if we need to go there).


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

SoCalEngr said:


> If it comes to that, well... They're long, convoluted stories, but I've had the opportunity to make the entire sales staff at a car dealership do an about-face on a deal-gone-south, and have a real estate brand put pressure on a franchisee to "do the right thing" (although that one ended up with me being declared persona-non-grata by the REA's wife/office-mgr).
> 
> But, we've had a good relationship with the people at the breeder, and I prefer not to "go alpha" unless need be. But, if I have to, I will. In the meantime, nothing hurt by waiting a bit more...and I still have the contract (if we need to go there).


I think that sounds like an excellent plan 😁


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SoCalEngr said:


> The AKC registration is just so that we are able to post/report the results of her eye/heart/hip/elbow exams to OFA and K9Data. The exams are for our benefit and peace of mind. Posting the results is more so that anyone else researching her parents have info on the health and soundness of offspring.


1. Pup doesn't need to be registered with AKC in order to put her on K9Data. You have her parents registered names, that means you can start a page for her and hook her pedigree up with theirs.

2. You do not need AKC registration in order to do OFA's.

3. You can get PAL registration for her after she is spayed. I assume you have a contract with the breeder to spay her at a point, if she wasn't to begin with.


^^^ The above applies if we go another 5-6 months and you still don't have paperwork from the breeder. It's not great if you paid a ton for a purebred golden retriever from as good a breeder as you could.

I think it's probable though that you will get paperwork - probably in the next 1-2 months.

If it makes you feel better, my Jovi did not get registered until he was about 5-6 months old. The vet involved losing paperwork + slow USPS were primary reasons why it took so long. I'm friends with the breeder and knew what was going on, so had very little worry about it. By the time he was 6-7 months, he was entered in his first AKC show - as I fully expected.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Megora said:


> 1. Pup doesn't need to be registered with AKC in order to put her on K9Data. You have her parents registered names, that means you can start a page for her and hook her pedigree up with theirs.
> 
> 2. You do not need AKC registration in order to do OFA's.
> 
> 3. You can get PAL registration for her after she is spayed. I assume you have a contract with the breeder to spay her at a point, if she wasn't to begin with.


Understood. I will do all the OFAs, regardless, but I am hoping to link Kona's health records to those of her parents and siblings (assuming others also register their dogs). 

Since we have no plans for showing or breeding (waiting until she is at least 12-months old before spaying), the AKC paperwork is more a contractual/price thing than anything else.



Megora said:


> If it makes you feel better, my Jovi did not get registered until he was about 5-6 months old. The vet involved losing paperwork + slow USPS were primary reasons why it took so long. I'm friends with the breeder and knew what was going on, so had very little worry about it. By the time he was 6-7 months, he was entered in his first AKC show - as I fully expected.


A li'l better, but, honestly, not too much. 😕😂 I find it's easier to "look back" than it is to "look, hopefully, forward". 🙂


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

And, the plot thickens...

First, the "good news"...

Having talked with the breeder (or, more accurately, the kennel manager), there's plausible explanations for the delay
The kennel manager assures me that the paperwork for the litter has been resubmitted to the AKC, and they've been straight with us up to this point-in-time
We have the contract, copies of AKC pedigrees for Kona's parents, etc.
Balancing the latest "information that makes me go 'hmmmm'"...

The AKC sent me an email saying that, as of 21 May, they do not have a litter registration application for Kona's mom


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

SoCalEngr said:


> And, the plot thickens...
> 
> First, the "good news"...
> 
> ...


If they submitted the litter app over the weekend, it would be better to call/email Tuesday for a new, updated list. Overall, hoping for the best!!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

To register the litter (which should have been done prior to selling any pups!) takes about 10 minutes on the computer... no reason to submit anything. Sorry you are having so much trouble. Might write a letter explaining the problem and that litter has not been registered yet. Address to the breeder and send it registered to see who signs for it. I like to believe the best of people and would like to think the manager is either clueless or really behind and the breeder only knows what the manager tells her  But this means EVERYONE that purchased a pup from this litter has yet to receive registration info.
Worse case scenario is if you ever want to compete in agility or rally it's pretty easy to get a PAL # from AKC. I did this with lots of rescues, don't need to be registered or even full breed. If you aren't going to compete, just chalk this up to a learning curve and let it go. Until I started to compete I used to stick them in a book and never sent them in to AKC. It was more important to me to get them chipped and registered with me as the owner.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

SoCalEngr said:


> ...we've had a good relationship with the people at the breeder,


I admire your optimism, but at this point, it appears your 'relationship' is based on a foundation of lies from them. If you ever get those AKC papers from them, I'll buy you a drink. Heck, I'll buy you the whole bottle.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I don't know Alan Gunther well. He has always seemed like a nice enough guy. I can't imagine him purposefully defrauding people. But something here is definitely amiss, and you're seemingly not getting the full story. It takes only a couple minutes to register a litter online. It could have been done the day the litter was whelped. We do it a couple weeks after the litter is on the ground, and well before the puppies go to their homes. It is all over the Golden community that Alan was dealing with the Big Virus for a couple months, but also that he's now okay. For the life of me, I can't imagine why the litter could not be registered by now.

Personally, I'd give him a deadline and an ultimatum, and see what happens.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

My dog was from a deceased sire (frozen breeding) and the registration took a bit longer than I'd expected. Also, to the extent the AKC piece matters, they are moving a bit more slowly lately (but they are moving) - acknowledgement of our recent titles took some time.

Still...how well do you know this breeder? I agree with the other posters - follow up this coming week as something doesn't seem right.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> I don't know Alan Gunther well. He has always seemed like a nice enough guy. I can't imagine him purposefully defrauding people. But something here is definitely amiss, and you're seemingly not getting the full story. It takes only a couple minutes to register a litter online. It could have been done the day the litter was whelped. We do it a couple weeks after the litter is on the ground, and well before the puppies go to their homes. It is all over the Golden community that Alan was dealing with the Big Virus for a couple months, but also that he's now okay. For the life of me, I can't imagine why the litter could not be registered by now.


Hmmm.... I didn't know that the OP's breeder was Alan. 

I don't know Alan personally, but through friends heard/saw what was going on. It's kinda no secret that he was critically ill from the virus. I vaguely remember he was in a coma? That was just in April. Yes, it's been a month, but even if that was regular old outpatient pneumonia - he still would be gradually recovering and it can take a couple months before you feel human again.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

Well...having been in a COVID coma DOES put a different spin on it...


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## rosemallow (Aug 15, 2018)

I didn’t get anything other than proof of clearances and a breakdown of lineage for my pup. Should I have asked for his AKC papers?


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## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

rosemallow said:


> I didn’t get anything other than proof of clearances and a breakdown of lineage for my pup. Should I have asked for his AKC papers?


did the breeder state you would be getting an AKC registered puppy?


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## rosemallow (Aug 15, 2018)

I thought on the website it was indicated that all puppies were sold on limited AKC registration but now I’m not finding it.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Just an update...

Still "no news". No "good news". No "bad news". No "hey, we submitted the registration info". Zilch. At this point, were it not for the amount of $$$ involved and the breeder's promises, I'd consider "letting it go". But, if this breeder is doing this to me, they're likely doing it to others, too.

I've discussed our options with my-better-half. She informed me that "sending Kona back" is "not an option!". 😮 Somehow, that's not a surprise. I think there's a greater likelihood of my having to find a new home if I attempted this route. 

So, I've shot off another email to the AKC to see if they've received any requests. If not, then direct, but still cordial, "*** Sherlock?" discussion will ensue. At this point, I'm almost more interested in "how" the breeder addresses my next contact, vice any specific outcome. I'm hoping, for the breeder's sake, that they're not hoping that I've remained ignorant of what needs to be done to register the litter, or how long it should take, or...or...or.

Sadly, if we cannot resolve this like adults, my next step may be to start pursuing criminal fraud, based on the total $$$ involved, contracts, etc. Hopefully, this can be avoided. I guess it all depends on if the AKC has received their request, or how well the breeder responds to my next query.

For those who've not followed this thread, a timeline for context is:
Nov 2019 - Litter is born
Apr 2020 - Deposit placed
Apr 2020 - Balance paid, puppy brought home, "paperwork is on it's way"
May 2020 - AKC says no record of any litters, or requests for registration, against the dam's AKC #
Jun 2020 - Second check with AKC on puppy registration, still crickets
Jun 2020 - Aaaaaaand, here we are.

*Updated update...*
I received a "no info here" email from the AKC, and called the breeder. Some of you know, or know of, the breeder. The good news is, he's back at work. I had a nice conversation with him, and we talked a bit about the cause for his recent absence.

Anyhoo...

The breeder (vice kennel manager) has assured me that he will take care of everything today (since, his words, it only takes a minute to go online and submit the information). So, this is encouraging. More informative was an inability to locate the file on Kona's litter (which, may also explain why this matter has not been taken care of). But, I now have the breeder's personal assurances, and a promise to call with an update (breeder's decision, not my request).

🤞🤞


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I have been following this thread and I am so curious to see how it resolves itself. I wouldn't let it go either!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

This is Shadalane right? I noticed large a BoM posted on their sight... might go to AKC.org and read up on qualifications to keep this status


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

puddles everywhere said:


> This is Shadalane right? I noticed large a BoM posted on their sight... might go to AKC.org and read up on qualifications to keep this status


Up until today, I have not had any direct dealings with the breeder. Today was my first interaction with the breeder, and things went very well. Of course, the "talks" with the breeder's kennel manager also "went well", too.  If I need to go the AKC route, I will. But, based on today's conversation, it sounds like things will get resolved more easily.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I just wonder if the parents you were told aren’t the parents


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

SheetsSM said:


> I just wonder if the parents you were told aren’t the parents


That would be "worst case". But, absent the AKC paperwork, it's not a possibility I can 100% rule out. This is part of why I'm continuing to pursue this, even as I continue to believe that it is simply a paper-work snafu.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

Hopefully, this is just a delay caused by his illness and follow-up with him will be all that is needed (fingers crossed for you). I never saw either of my golden puppies' paperwork - the breeders took care of that and I just saw the registration certificate. Breeders, especially those that bother to title their dogs (and it appears that he has in the past), usually WANT their litters registered.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Any update from the breeder in the last 2 days? Since it takes just minutes to register the litter, he could at least tell you that's been done. 

Does anyone know how long it takes to get the packet of puppy registration forms after you register the litter?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The packet comes after online application within a week or so.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

mylissyk said:


> Any update from the breeder in the last 2 days? Since it takes just minutes to register the litter, he could at least tell you that's been done.


Nope, no updates/news yet. But, I'm patient, and persistent. And, my wife has informed me that we're keeping Kona irrespective of how this turns out, so....


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I do have to admire your optimistic patience. Not one of my better qualities. You could at least contact AKC to verify the litter was registered recently  And would be followed by a complaint letter if it was not. And possibly a certified letter to the breeder requesting at least a partial refund as your purchase agreement was for an AKC registered puppy. Small claims court is easy to file in.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

I would be more than a little pissed at this point. Even if they snail mailed the application, they should have had it by now.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

puddles everywhere said:


> I do have to admire your optimistic patience. Not one of my better qualities.


I'm not uber patient, either. But, this ship has already sailed (i.e., we have Kona, and that deal is not getting unwound without a whole lot of "family issues" 😲🤣). So, this will all work out, and there's not real fuse on the efforts, nor the results. Worst case? We learned an important, and somewhat costly, lesson...and ended up with a sweetheart of a golden. 😃

Side benefit? Keeping some perspective on all this helps to make it not become a major impediment to enjoying life-in-general.



puddles everywhere said:


> You could at least contact AKC to verify the litter was registered recently  And would be followed by a complaint letter if it was not.


Already done, twice. Both times, the litter had not. Which is why I called back to let the breeder know that I knew (and, that I was monitoring progress with the AKC). Since I am now dealing directly with the breeder (vice his kennel manager), I'm okay with "resetting the timers".



puddles everywhere said:


> And possibly a certified letter to the breeder requesting at least a partial refund as your purchase agreement was for an AKC registered puppy. Small claims court is easy to file in.


If it gets this far, and I'm optimistic that it won't, then I'll pursue this. But, I'm likely to "go bigger" than small claims. Not out of any spirit of retribution, but more to make sure it doesn't happen to others. And, by the time I add up all my costs, we're no longer in small claims. 😲😁


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

BlazenGR said:


> I would be more than a little pissed at this point. Even if they snail mailed the application, they should have had it by now.


Sadly, my experience is that the only person negatively affected by me going high-and-right...tends to be "me" (and my family, who ends up having to deal with my resultant attitude). So, "patience" and "even temperament" are more self-preservation strategies than they are "admirable social skills". 😁


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Because you have pursued it this far it would be sad to not finish it. If for no other reason but to help others avoid this same issue. My guess.... and only a guess, your entire litter owners (and who knows how many other litters) may be struggling through the very same thing. LOL as creative as you are ... go public Local news with a consumer advocate reporter? Buy a nice large add in the local paper? Picket in front of his facility? But would certainly file a complaint to the AKC, in writing. They frown on forged or unfiled paperwork. I would feel scammed and as long as everyone let's it go, it will continue.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

puddles everywhere said:


> Because you have pursued it this far it would be sad to not finish it. If for no other reason but to help others avoid this same issue. My guess.... and only a guess, your entire litter owners (and who knows how many other litters) may be struggling through the very same thing. LOL as creative as you are ... go public Local news with a consumer advocate reporter? Buy a nice large add in the local paper? Picket in front of his facility? But would certainly file a complaint to the AKC, in writing. They frown on forged or unfiled paperwork. I would feel scammed and as long as everyone let's it go, it will continue.


I don't believe in "going public" (I think it's used way too much) unless there's a public benefit (i.e., making others aware of a rampant situation) to others for doing so. With that said, (a) I do believe there are some unusual conditions involved here, and am still willing to give the breeder some time/room to get everything in order, and (b) I will, one way or the other, see this through (and, let y'all know how it works out). 😁


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Is AKC registration important to you, other than you paid for a registered puppy, do you specifically want your dog to be registered?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> Is AKC registration important to you, other than you paid for a registered puppy, do you specifically want your dog to be registered?



And I do want you to get your registration! I was just curious.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

mylissyk said:


> Is AKC registration important to you, other than you paid for a registered puppy, do you specifically want your dog to be registered?


In another time, my answer would have been "no, AKC registration is not that important to me". Even now, it's not "personally important" (i.e., I have zero aspirations for showing or breeding). But, I want to be able have test results posted to OFA. I'm planning on doing all the tests for my own awareness, but also think it will be beneficial for others to have this information available (I plan on posting both "passed" and "failed" tests).

At another level, I paid for an AKC breed from a specific set of parents. Not that I don't trust the breeder, but the AKC paperwork is the best evidence that Kona is, indeed, what the breeder presented her as. I know I overpaid for her. I did so knowingly, as I was willing to trade some $$$ for the convenience of timing and availability. But, even though my better-half has informed me that Kona's worth every penny, it would be a bit more disappointing that I overpaid for something I didn't get. 😁


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Update...

It's been a while (16 days) since my last post. In the meantime, I've been impatiently waiting.

And?

(drumroll please...) We received a call today that Kona's paperwork has come in! 😁 In keeping with the overall experience, the paperwork actually arrived a few days ago...but got temporarily misplaced as the breeder's office spaces are undergoing updating and renovation. 😂🤣😂 Lest anyone feels a need to be indignant on our behalf, I actually find this whole experience to be somewhat amusing (now that it appears to be resolving). Sometimes, in our hyper-efficient world, it's refreshing (at times) to be reminded that we are still "a world of people".

We plan on going up to get the paperwork next weekend, which will also allow for a "homecoming" for Kona and a visit with the breeder's staff. 😁


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Awesome! Congratulations!!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm glad it appears it will be resolved! Do you know what paperwork you are getting? If the breeder sent in his registration the AKC would have mailed the registration certificate to you, the owner. 

Is it just the litter registration they got? I'm just curious because all of this can be done online, and doesn't really require you to pick up any papers from the breeder. They could have gotten the registered name you want from you and submitted it online.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

mylissyk said:


> I'm glad it appears it will be resolved! Do you know what paperwork you are getting? If the breeder sent in his registration the AKC would have mailed the registration certificate to you, the owner.
> 
> Is it just the litter registration they got? I'm just curious because all of this can be done online, and doesn't really require you to pick up any papers from the breeder. They could have gotten the registered name you want from you and submitted it online.


I have a feeling it is the litter registration, and then we will need to send in actual paperwork (or, use the paperwork so that we can register online). The only name we provided to the breeder is a "call name" (although, in fairness, I wouldn't be distressed if the breeder selected her "registered name").

As much as anything, the drive up is mostly just a "social thing", an opportunity to say "hi" and let the folks who worked with her for the first 4 1/2 months to see how she's doing. I guess that's a benefit of living just a few minutes drive from the breeder.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Just to bring closure to this thread...

We drove up to the breeder's, visited a bit, and picked up Kona's papers. I then went online and finished out the final registration entries. Her AKC name is "Shadalane Island Breeze", carrying on in the vein of her dam "Shadalane's Summer Breeze".

Thanks for all the information and support.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm glad it worked out. Your patience and perseverance paid off. Have you thought about adding her to k9data.com?


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

mylissyk said:


> I'm glad it worked out. Your patience and perseverance paid off. Have you thought about adding her to k9data.com?


Thank you for the reminder. Done.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You have to input her sire and dam names, the rest should fill in for you after that.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> You have to input her sire and dam names, the rest should fill in for you after that.


Thank you. Done! ✔


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