# Dreamkeeper Goldens - Canada



## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I dont personally know or have ever heard of these guys, but to ME the untrained eye, they look okay! They mentioned having clearences in their breeding stock, and one of their sires seems to have just won a toronto show placement. Again, im no pro so im curious to see what others have to say!


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## DogLover (Jul 8, 2010)

Also, puppies are $2,500 but all dogs have been imported and parents are champions or Multi-Champions which I believe is why the cost is so high


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

DogLover said:


> Also, puppies are $2,500 but all dogs have been imported and parents are champions or Multi-Champions which I believe is why the cost is so high


WOW - that's quite the price tag!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

That is a VERY high price for a puppy. I understand that they imported the parents from Europe, but I don't think it is worth twice the price. Just because the dogs are from Eastern Europe or Australia, it doesn't make them good breeding prospects. And, very few reputable breeders anywhere are going to send their best dogs to a foreign country, they keep them close.

In addition, if the dogs are SO good, they should be able to get Canadian championships very easily. I would wait until they had Canadian championships before I bred them, if I were the breeder. 

Plus, I am always suspicious when one breeder has both the parents of the litter. Is it just amazing luck that the best stud for a bitch happens to be in the kennel next door?

I think if you look at a number of good kennels in Canada who have Canadian titles and do well in Canadian shows, you can find some really nice dogs that follow the English standard, rather than searching the web for "English Goldens." You will find breeders who are working on developing their own lines of Goldens, are very knowledgeable about their lines and what they are breeding to, and finally, their prices will be much less. I think in this case, paying $2,500 will not get you a better puppy than paying $1,250 to a serious hobby breeder.


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## DogLover (Jul 8, 2010)

What is the average cost for an English Type golden if parent or parents have been imported? I really liked Wyndance, Talini, and Tanglewood as they all have the English Type but they are much too far away.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I would assume that the prices would be the same as for an American Golden. 

The initial price of the parents should have little to do with the price of the puppies. All the other costs involved with the litter would be the same. Those costs include health clearances, vet care, raising the pups, stud fee, plus a bunch of other things that I can't remember.

Breeders charge higher prices when the parents themselves have impressive titles, such as breed championships or performance championships since there is a lot of money involved in obtaining those titles.


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## SweetSoul (Apr 27, 2010)

One of my friends actually got a dog from Dreamkeeper Goldens. I have met him, he is very sweet boy, very high energy but super sweet. He is really handsome. His coat is more wiry than I prefer on a golden (reminds me more of a long-haired lab). She absolutely adores him though. PM me if you want her info and you can reach out to her directly about her experience.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

the lighter English type of golden should not cost any more than a medium-gold or darker gold well-bred golden. Around Ontario I would say the average price for one from a reputable/responsible breeder doing all clearances with Canadian Champion titles on their dogs, is about $1000-1100. 

If you are looking for a lighter golden, I would suggest Braefield. They are located near Cayuga/Hamilton I believe and she has some beautiful dogs out there. 

Dreamkeeper is charging $2500?! Really?! Wow.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Depending on pedigree and titles I would say the going rate is between $1000=$1500 in Ontario right now for a well-bred, quality pup. I know I am anticipating charging $1200 for the working breeding I have in the works.
Since you are willing to travel, into central Ontario, there are a couple of other breeders you could check out who have been at this for some time in addition to the ones that have already been mentioned. 

Karin Klouman is Kyon Kennels in Shelburne ON. She is still actively importing new dogs to incorporate into the lines she has been developing for nearly 40 years! My Winter goes back to her breeding on his dam's side. http://www.kyonkennels.com/

Bruce Brown is Goldnote Goldens at Wyebridge ON. He has also incorporated English and Scandinavian bloodlines into his breeding. I know he has a breeding in the works as I ran into him at the vet yesterday when I was getting progesterone done! http://www.goldnotesgoldens.com/


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## Sophie_Mom (Jan 21, 2009)

Lots of great advice for you - I'd agree that $2500 is a really high price!


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

*Puppies and Pricing*

I think everyone has made some valid points in regards to both the pricing and cost of puppies as well as reputable breeding practices....

While the price of our puppies may seem higher than some - it is actually mid-range for puppies from quality English lines here in North America. That being said - we base our price on a number of things - not what other people are charging. Firstly we have invested a huge amount of money in importing some of the top lines in Europe to Canada - and we have not kept every dog that we have imported for breeding purposes. Some have gone on to make wonderful house pets - but were not up to our standards as breeding stock. Selective screening like this increases the cost of the parents that we choose to keep. Secondly - there are many costs involved with screening our prospective parents for hips, elbows, heart, eyes and thyroid - as we want to ensure that we are only incorporating healthy representatives of the breed in anything we do. In addition to that we show almost all of our goldens to achieve their Canadian Championship. There have been a few goldens over the years that were maybe just a little too mild-mannered or shy for the show ring - but 90 percent of the parents in our program have been campaigned to achieve champion status. Lastly - we give our young puppies every possible opportunity for the best start in life. That begins with high quality diet and nutrition (which is not cheap) which works hand in hand with socialization and every aspect of puppy care. Caring for puppies for the first 8 weeks of life is a job that requires round the clock care - 7 days a week -- It is extremely labor intensive but completely necessary to build a good foundation and a part of breeding that we take great pride and joy in. 

I would hope that if you could hear first hand from one of our puppy owners they would tell you that there IS a difference in the puppies that we breed and that the cost can truly be justified by the quality of puppy that they receive. 

I would also mention that our prices range in fact from 1500-2500 depending on the litter and the pedigree involved.

Lastly to address the comments of one of the earlier posts - we pair our females to whomever will best compliment her qualities. Sometimes this will be one of our own males -- as we have a few to choose from -- or other times it will be a male from another kennel. Breeding in many ways is an art - and really each litter has to be taken on its own merits for who will best compliment whom as parents. In any event - any male that we proceed with in our program will at the very least have his championship, all health clearances and be a true representative of the breed.

Hope that helps explain some of what we do but of course anyone with questions is always welcome to email us personally or make an appointment to visit us...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Welcome to the GRF :wavey:
Your price is "mid-range for puppies from quality lines here in North America" if you take the prices of the outlandish into account. 
Any responsible breeder is doing all the health certifications you say you are doing.
Not keeping and using every dog in one's breeding program is quite the norm for all breeders. Passing that cost on to the puppy families is not.
Campaigning a dog in a venue is also the norm for any responsible breeder.
And what are you feeding the pups that can be that costly? If the average litter size is say 6 pups - a low ball estimate - and you are getting $1000 more per pup than the norm in your area that would work out to an additional $6000 per litter. That is a LOT of nutrition. 
Now if you want to say that you are charging those prices because it is what the market will bear and you are doing all the other things to be responsible I really have no issue. But I can not justify it by your reasoning.



Dreamkeeper said:


> I think everyone has made some valid points in regards to both the pricing and cost of puppies as well as reputable breeding practices....
> 
> While the price of our puppies may seem higher than some - it is actually mid-range for puppies from quality English lines here in North America. That being said - we base our price on a number of things - not what other people are charging. Firstly we have invested a huge amount of money in importing some of the top lines in Europe to Canada - and we have not kept every dog that we have imported for breeding purposes. Some have gone on to make wonderful house pets - but were not up to our standards as breeding stock. Selective screening like this increases the cost of the parents that we choose to keep. Secondly - there are many costs involved with screening our prospective parents for hips, elbows, heart, eyes and thyroid - as we want to ensure that we are only incorporating healthy representatives of the breed in anything we do. In addition to that we show almost all of our goldens to achieve their Canadian Championship. There have been a few goldens over the years that were maybe just a little too mild-mannered or shy for the show ring - but 90 percent of the parents in our program have been campaigned to achieve champion status. Lastly - we give our young puppies every possible opportunity for the best start in life. That begins with high quality diet and nutrition (which is not cheap) which works hand in hand with socialization and every aspect of puppy care. Caring for puppies for the first 8 weeks of life is a job that requires round the clock care - 7 days a week -- It is extremely labor intensive but completely necessary to build a good foundation and a part of breeding that we take great pride and joy in.
> 
> ...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Welcome to the GRF :wavey:
> Your price is "mid-range for puppies from quality lines here in North America" if you take the prices of the outlandish into account.
> Any responsible breeder is doing all the health certifications you say you are doing.
> Not keeping and using every dog in one's breeding program is quite the norm for all breeders. Passing that cost on to the puppy families is not.
> ...


 
What he said. Underlined.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

*Expenses involved with raising a litter*

I respect the above posts - but I am just curious - have either one of you ever bred a litter of puppies ??

I agree that any reputable breeder should be laying out the expenses of having hips, elbows, heart, eyes etc. done. And most of the better breeders hopefully are involved with the showing of their goldens - which requires lots of time and expense. 

My main expense is in the breeding stock that I have brought over from Europe. Yes - some breeders do this occasionally -- very few do it on a regular basis to incorporate new bloodlines into their breeding program and even fewer build their whole foundation on it (which we did in order to try and avoid some of the rampant health and temperament problems that are plaguing some of the American lines). The costs involved with this are not only the cost of the puppy itself - which if you are getting an exceptional puppy from a well established European breeder can be quite high -- but also all the paperwork and health/inspection materials required as well as the cost of the flight itself. It adds up very quickly and can be extremely expensive.

I would argue that European breeders keep all the "good ones" for themselves and do not allow their good breeding stock to come to North America. This is not so. It may require years of building a relationship and trust in the breeder that you are trying to work with -- and they are leary to send to this side of the ocean to begin with (due to our North American reputation for breeding with little regard for the breed itself) -- but European breeders will and do send top quality goldens to this part of the world.

There are costs with the whelping process also -- the whelping box, whelping supplies, ultrasound, supplements for the mom, premium diet for the mum, veterinary visits - and that is not taking into account any increased costs if there is any kind of medical emergency.

Then for the pups themselves: quality food, supplements, vaccinations, microchipping, registration, vet visits, etc.

That accounts nothing for the sleepless nights spent beside the whelping box helping a first time mum care for her babies or the hours spent bottle feeding a litter if the mum doesn't have enough milk. Or the hours gladly spent socializing little pups and cleaning up after them....

I certainly understand that sometimes a price may seem high to someone who may not know all the aspects involved... I just wanted to let you see some of the costs involved from our perspective.

Cheers.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> I respect the above posts - but I am just curious - have either one of you ever bred a litter of puppies ??



Yes I have, only twice.





Dreamkeeper said:


> I agree that any reputable breeder should be laying out the expenses of having hips, elbows, heart, eyes etc. done. And most of the better breeders hopefully are involved with the showing of their goldens - which requires lots of time and expense.
> 
> My main expense is in the breeding stock that I have brought over from Europe. Yes - some breeders do this occasionally -- very few do it on a regular basis to incorporate new bloodlines into their breeding program and even fewer build their whole foundation on it (which we did in order to try and avoid some of the rampant health and temperament problems that are plaguing some of the American lines). The costs involved with this are not only the cost of the puppy itself - which if you are getting an exceptional puppy from a well established European breeder can be quite high -- but also all the paperwork and health/inspection materials required as well as the cost of the flight itself. It adds up very quickly and can be extremely expensive.
> 
> ...


And seeing as I have done this only twice most of these expenses were far more costly per litter for me. 
Still can't justify the price in my mind. And in my opinion you are rationalizing more on the premise of the bottom line is what is important. And again if that is where you are coming from that is your right, but just come out and say that.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

To me, Dreamkeeper seems to be seriously overpriced. I just paid $1200 for Ryley from a very reputable breeder (Auburnmist Golden Retrievers) here in Alberta. Wendy Petkau and her husband have been involved in breeding GR's for over 20 years, if not more.

Frankly, I doubt that a Dreamkeeper dog has any better pedigree than Ryley has. Almost all of all Ryley's ancestors are all Champions or Multi-Champions... some are/were pretty big hitters too.

Just click on the the "Ryley's Pedigree" link in my signature.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

DogLover has the word banned under their name.

Has he or she been banned or did they write that themselves?


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I paid $1000 for my pup. He came from a GREAT breeder, and has an amazing pedigree. You can tell Joey's breeder does it for the love of the breed, she doesn't think that all her sleepless nights means she adds some $$$ to the price of the pup. If you are going to breed a dog, your not going to sleep for a while. you sign up for it. I also don't think that the supplies should necessarily be part of the pups price either. Im no breeder nor do I know anything about breeding, but im pretty sure you don't need a whelping box for every new litter... but i could be mistaken. Im just very happy with Joey and his price and I will defiantly be going back to my breeder who gave me the Joey in raising my beautiful boy. Thats my opinion


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> I respect the above posts - but I am just curious - have either one of you ever bred a litter of puppies ??
> 
> I agree that any reputable breeder should be laying out the expenses of having hips, elbows, heart, eyes etc. done. And most of the better breeders hopefully are involved with the showing of their goldens - which requires lots of time and expense.
> 
> ...


Yes I have had a litter. Several. I've produced several AKC champions, and have been a member of the GRCA since 1987. I have even owned a dog imported from England. I am well aware of the costs involved. 

I suppose that how you care to justify your costs depends entirely upon your reasons for breeding. And, unless you are importing large numbers of dogs and only breeding them once, it would seem that the price that you are getting for puppies would certainly have paid for all of those expenses _several _times over. Many of the expenses that you list are one time costs. 
Sorry. I can't justify it.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

*Final words*

I truly respect everyone who has posted in this thread -- I know we all would agree that our goldens are "priceless" no matter how much we have paid for them.

I would like to just amicably agree that some of you disagree with our pricing. That's fine. I don't expect you to understand all the years, time, energy etc that have gone into our philosophy. 

All of our dogs live with us in our home - so they are first and foremost part of our family -- so even beginning to talk about price is a bit of a difficult thing in my opinion -- I would pay 10 times over for any one of them in a heartbeat. 

To me it isn't at all about the "bottom line" because if I actually "charged" for every hour that I have put into our puppies, invested in their futures, training, offered advice to our adopting families etc. etc., -- I could have easily made more money working a job at MacDonalds. The underlying motivation in anything we have done to date has been our sincere love for the breed and a desire to see it preserved and improved upon if possible. My second motivation is knowing the unparalelled joy that a well-bred, healthy golden can bring to its family. 

So - without getting into a pointless thread of eternally debating price - I would just like to end with the fact that I LOVE and am completely enamored with the breed and it is a privilege to be involved with it at any level. I am truly blessed with the beautiful goldens that are part of our family... I can't imagine life without them. I would like to think that I am a "servant" of the breed and I hope I will always serve it well. -- I wish I could afford to do it all for nothing and just give them away .... Actually that's not really true -- because I wish I could KEEP them all 

Wherever you are - hug your golden - and thanks for being a part of the Golden Retriever Forum.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I have to agree-if you are charging that much just because you can, and because you breed for profit, just say so. Honestly, I don't have an issue with for-profit breeders who do things right. Unfortunately, the vast majority end up taking short cuts because of profitability.

And I have bred several litters too  with several American champions and, like Pointgold, an Outstanding Sire or Dam or two  And yes, many, many happy, healthy, well-loved pets as well.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Really? Some 13 dogs live in your house? 
I've been doing this since the late 70's. I DO understand "all the years, time, and energy" that go into doing it right. Your charging an exhorbitant rate for puppies does not make them, or you and your philosophy, any better than those of us who have been doing it at _least_ as long as you have, do all clearances, compete in one or more venues, subscribe to a COE, and price our dogs so that wonderful, loving families can afford to have one. 
I do see that you are a breeder who "fosters" dogs so that others care for them until such time as you need to breed them and get a litter out of them. My dogs are far more to me than reproductive organs. And as they are all right here, I CAN hug them any time, and don't have to count on someone else to do it for me.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

yep all i now is i wouldn't be able to afford $2500 on a dog, The prices here in australia are different here our limited registered pups go for $800-$900 main register $1000-$1200. I was lucky i got my Shelley for $600 on main register but got her spayed as i wouldn't risk breeding her. 

To me a good breeder isn't breeding for the money actually most if not all registered breeders here loss money or come out the same it cost to to test them. Most breeders here breed for health,temperment etc first and charge a reasonable amount so that they find great homes. The breeder of Shelley has been breeding goldens for 30 years and has only made like $100 in profit in those 30 years.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> I truly respect everyone who has posted in this thread -- I know we all would agree that our goldens are "priceless" no matter how much we have paid for them.
> 
> I would like to just amicably agree that some of you disagree with our pricing. That's fine. I don't expect you to understand all the years, time, energy etc that have gone into our philosophy.
> 
> ...


I respect this. Thank you. It doesn't matter what breeders charge for their puppies, people will pay for what they want. At least I'm fairly confident that someone who can pay $2,000+ on a golden retriever is most likely in a good place in life, money for vet care, etc. 

Anyway, what's important is the integrity of the breeder and their commitment to our breed. You assume because Dreamkeeper charges a lot for her puppies that she's got ulterior motives or somehow is not being true to the our breed ... but I don't think that necessarily has to be the case. It's probably not the case all of the time, for sure.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

GoldenOwner12 said:


> Most breeders here breed for health,temperment etc first and charge a reasonable amount so that they find great homes.


Imagine if we had $2,500 to spend on a golden retriever and we loved golden retreivers  Imagine the kinds of things we could do with our dogs, for our dogs.

Now I'm not saying for a minute that anyone needs a lot of money to care for a golden retriever -- I struggle but Daisy and me do okay.

But if I had more money? We'd be having better times, for sure. So many things I'd love to do for Daisy, with her, that I can't. Like get a boat and take long vacations at the lake , build a beautiful pond in our backyard for her, a pool, take a road trip to go visit Marlene :wave: And how wonderful to not have to be terrified that if she gets really sick, I might not have enough money to save her  

I don't think either that we can assume that great homes can't also have a lot of money.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Curious, Dreamkeeper. Where are your clearances being done? A couple of your dogs are in the OFA data base for cardiac. CERF's aren't listed, and on your site you list "Dysplasia Free" or Elbows O, Eyes Clear. A couple of dogs have PennHip cited.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Imagine if we had $2,500 to spend on a golden retriever and we loved golden retreivers  Imagine the kinds of things we could do with our dogs, for our dogs.
> 
> Now I'm not saying for a minute that anyone needs a lot of money to care for a golden retriever -- I struggle but Daisy and me do okay.
> 
> ...


Whoever assumed that? However,as a breeder, I know that there are _wonderful_ homes that cannot pay $2500 for a pet. Frankly, I know only a very few breeders who charge that for a _show_ puppy of the type that meets the standard here.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

to keep my dogs happy doesn't require money at all my dogs love to go to the channel around the corner,they love to go to the oval for a run. There even happy if i just pat them. To me why spend $2500 for one registered breeders pup when you can get one for $1000 then spend $1500 on toys,crates,vets etc.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Y'all missed my point  

Carry on....


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Whoever assumed that?


I was responding to GoldenOwner12's statement ... "charge a reasonable amount so that they find great homes."


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Curious, Dreamkeeper. Where are your clearances being done? A couple of your dogs are in the OFA data base for cardiac. CERF's aren't listed, and on your site you list "Dysplasia Free" or Elbows O, Eyes Clear. A couple of dogs have PennHip cited.


 
Just followed some of the info in K9 Data. None of the dogs citing CERF show up in CERF data base. There are some "discrepancies". You'd think all those really expensive clearances would be very proudly displayed, very clearly. And eyes need to be done annually, BTW.
I'll assume that some of them, maybe, might have been done when in Europe. I'll say that if I were ever to own another import, they'd only come here with the knowlege that if they did not clear here in the US, using our methods, they would not stay. (Our English import cleared in the UK, and failed here.)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I was responding to GoldenOwner12's statement ... "charge a reasonable amount so that they find great homes."


And I was responding to your statement..."I don't think either that we can assume that great homes can't also have a lot of money.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

The majority of our hip clearances are Pennhip (because I prefer their philosophy behind evaluating hip health) although we have had a couple of goldens over the years that have been imported with their hips already assessed under the FCI scoring scheme in Europe. On occasion we will use OFA for hips. Elbows we do through OFA (or FCI if the golden was old enough at the time of being adopted) and heart is evaluated by canine cardiologist Sandra Minors in Mississauga, Ontario. Eye certifications are done (ANNUALLY) through Dr. Michael Zigler at the Missisauga Medical Clinic in Ontario - equivalent to a CERF certification. Copies of all clearances are available to our adoptive families (and anyone inquiring regarding any of our puppies)

Yes, some of our dogs are fostered - but that allows two things - #1 - It allows us to make sure that all of our dogs are loved and cherished by a family (as opposed to being in a kennel run) and #2 it allows us to be selective with who we breed and to hold on to some of our younger "hopefuls" to see if they will be a quality example of the breed. Not every dog we allow into a foster home situation will be incorporated in our breeding program.

And I know that all goldens have originated from the same roots -- but in North America there is a big difference between the American line goldens and the European. It is not like comparing apples to apples.

That's all.

Don't we all have something better to focus our energy on....?
How about coming up with a solution for the rising rate of cancer in goldens ??
Or putting an end to puppy mills ??
Or finding homes for all those goldens in rescue situations.... ??

Really didn't intend this whole dialogue to be an argument or a cross-examination -- I just wanted whoever originally started this thread to understand where our costs come from....

Have a golden day everyone.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Imagine if we had $2,500 to spend on a golden retriever and we loved golden retreivers  Imagine the kinds of things we could do with our dogs, for our dogs.


And imagine how many of us here would not have a wonderful Golden as part of our family if all breeders who cared about this breed as much Dreamkeeper does charged $2500 for their pups. 
$2500 for a pup ensures nothing more than $1500 would, just as the family who can afford the $2500 for the pup is assured to be a better (or worse) home for a pup. 
And trust me Jo Ellen, Daisy would love you no more if you had a yacht, that is what owning a dog is about - unconditional love.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> Really didn't intend this whole dialogue to be an argument or a cross-examination -- I just wanted whoever originally started this thread to understand where our costs come from....


But as has been pointed out, you have actually failed to do. Your "costs" are truly not any different than other breeders.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> But as has been pointed out, you have actually failed to do. Your "costs" are truly not any different than other breeders.


 
And I guess I will just have to believe that you paid the same price that I did for your foundation bitch and an excellent stud dog.

This is a pointless argument.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> And I guess I will just have to believe that you paid the same price that I did for your foundation bitch and an excellent stud dog.
> 
> This is a pointless argument.



Exactly! :doh:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> And I guess I will just have to believe that you paid the same price that I did for your foundation bitch and an excellent stud dog.
> 
> This is a pointless argument.


 
I'd stand my foundation bitch up against ANY, from any country.(She actually did a lot of winning in your country - including GRCC National and Regional Specialties.) And, thank you very much, I have used some truly excellent stud dogs. 

What is pointless is your premise that the amount of money that you supposedly have spent somehow makes your dogs worth more/better/whatever. Some might say you paid way too much for what you got. Some might say that breeders from other countries see people from N. America coming and rub their hands together in glee.
Some might say that there pretty nearly anything can be justified with the proper turn of phrase.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> And imagine how many of us here would not have a wonderful Golden as part of our family if all breeders who cared about this breed as much Dreamkeeper does charged $2500 for their pups.
> $2500 for a pup ensures nothing more than $1500 would, just as the family who can afford the $2500 for the pup is assured to be a better (or worse) home for a pup.
> And trust me Jo Ellen, Daisy would love you no more if you had a yacht, that is what owning a dog is about - unconditional love.


I do understand that Ambika, thank you. Haha, but if I could afford $2,500 for a golden, maybe I could also afford a house on a lake ... Daisy would be in heaven everyday. Ahhhh, I do love to dream


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> Ahhhh, I do love to dream



Don't we all!!!


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## Catharine (Nov 30, 2010)

I would have to agree with what everyone is saying about the high price of these pups. Actually I find it quite offensive that it is implied these pups are better and worth more than mine. 
I have imported only twice, and from the Top Kennel in Scotland with a Crufts BOB winner, and from a Top European Breeder who also had a Crufts CC winner. Actually both have the top bitches in their respective countries.
I have bred numerous litters, have gotten Obedience, Retrieving and Conformation Championship titles on my dogs. I have had the same expenses as any breeder for the whelping box, scale, bedding, etc and of course have the same vet bills, food expenses, etc. 
I have only once had the expense of having a pup shipped to Canada, that was after WE flew over to Scotland to choose the pick male. With our girl from the Netherlands, WE again flew over and brought her home. So the costs were substantially MORE for us.

Our pups sell for $1,000.00 but I guess the difference is we are HOBBY BREEDERS, not COMMERCIAL BREEDERS. We do not make a profit as my bank and my vet can attest - any money we make with litters or stud fees goes right back into the care of the dogs/pups.


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## Catharine (Nov 30, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Really? Some 13 dogs live in your house?
> I've been doing this since the late 70's. I DO understand "all the years, time, and energy" that go into doing it right. Your charging an exhorbitant rate for puppies does not make them, or you and your philosophy, any better than those of us who have been doing it at _least_ as long as you have, do all clearances, compete in one or more venues, subscribe to a COE, and price our dogs so that wonderful, loving families can afford to have one.
> I do see that you are a breeder who "fosters" dogs so that others care for them until such time as you need to breed them and get a litter out of them. My dogs are far more to me than reproductive organs. And as they are all right here, I CAN hug them any time, and don't have to count on someone else to do it for me.


Actually my dogs all live in the house too. A 1200 square foot log cabin. That's Trio, Abbey, Briar Rose, Paige, Tansy, Flora, Hope, Lola, Dikke Thea, George, Harry, Simon, our two new pups Callum and Brodie (from Tansy and Simon) and our 12 1/2 yr old Sheltie. 
So I can believe that. We do not have a kennel building my Goldens are first and foremost my pets. Mine though range from 12 weeks to 12 1/2 yrs. I also have Shasta that I own that lives in a pet home. Shasta we own on 'paper' but her heart belongs to her mummy Shawna. Also not all are breeding stock a few are actually have never been bred - my heart girl Briar Rose for one and the Sheltie.
Fostering dogs is quite common as you cannot possibly keep a beautiful pup all the time. We had a girl Caleigh who was sold as a pet but her owners let me breed her back twice for a litter. Have to say, Caleigh I think was one of the best mums we ever had. And I have my beautiful Hope from her 2nd litter. 
So although that might not be something you would do, fostering it is not uncommon at all and many reputable breeders such as Conqueror, Kyon, Jaad, Hollymere, Blackpool, etc do this too.


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Just followed some of the info in K9 Data. None of the dogs citing CERF show up in CERF data base. There are some "discrepancies". You'd think all those really expensive clearances would be very proudly displayed, very clearly. And eyes need to be done annually, BTW.
> I'll assume that some of them, maybe, might have been done when in Europe. I'll say that if I were ever to own another import, they'd only come here with the knowlege that if they did not clear here in the US, using our methods, they would not stay. (Our English import cleared in the UK, and failed here.)


 Not everyone send it in to CERF. So don't assume they are not clear. AT the very least a copy of the CERF exam sheet is to be provided to puppy owners as well as hips, elbows and heart. Hope this clears things up for you.


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

Breeding a bitch who has PenHipp (Hip clearance) of 50% is a BIG No-No. The lowest acceptable is 60%. And YES $2500. for a puppy is WAY to high! Most go for 1000-1500. And a mish-mash perdigree is a recipe for disaster!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

dmv22 said:


> Not everyone send it in to CERF. So don't assume they are not clear. AT the very least a copy of the CERF exam sheet is to be provided to puppy owners as well as hips, elbows and heart. Hope this clears things up for you.


Given the current issue with PU, as well as other hereditary ophthalmological concerns, any responsible breeder should be submitting the forms to CERF. There is no reason not to. And unless I see them in there, updated annually, and until a dog dies, I have no choice but to assume that they have not been done. *Which is different than assuming they are not clear.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Is it not acceptable to have eye certifications done by Dr. Michael Zigler (certified veterinary Opthamologist) at the Mississauga Veterinary Emergency Hospital?? The certification we receive from him says CERF equivalent. This is where we have all of our dogs done - because even at a 3 hour drive it is the closest certification clinic that I am aware of for us.

Here is a copy of the document they issue.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

There are multiple CERF clinics held by Ontario clubs using ACVO doctors whose results can be submitted to the CERF database so that they can be accessed there and and through OFA. Since Dr. Zigler is not a diplomate of ACVO results of his exams cannot be submitted for recording and research purposes.

The GRCGT holds a one-stop-shopping clinic every year where you can get eyes done by ACVO Charlotte Keller, hearts by cardiologist Aaron Wey (who has taken over Joel Edwards' practice), hip/elbow radiographs (without sedation!) by Dr. Carol Graham, and bloodwork drawn for PRA, Thyroid, etc. There is even a multi dog discount, and the rates are reduced on radiographs as well vs her normal rate. We have been offering this service every spring for years, and years and years. It is in Hillsburgh which is just outside the city.

Aside from our multi-clinic, there are numerous other clubs holding eye clinics throughout the year which are clearly advertised on CanuckDogs, and if you have a lot of dogs to CERF a number of the opthamologists will do on site clinics for breeders.

The closest ACVO to you would be Sue West who is in Midland, which is much closer than Mississauga. 

Dr. C. Sue West
Clinic name: Heritage Animal Hospital
687 King St
Midland, ON L4R 4K3
Country: CANADA
Phone: 705-526-6411


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

I agree with Ambika completely. MOSt reputable breeders do the same things but still charge a fair price (1000-1500) All the same has to be done: clearances, showing and other titles, and high quality food) . Clients should NOT have to bear the costs as one should be breeding for themself FIRST and not just to sell puppies! I am no expert but the pedigrees look like a mish mash of dogs from all over the place. How is one supposed to track genetic issues? And there are some in every lineage! Champion titles from various countries also differ as in one country your dog can beat 2 dogs at a show and is crowned a CH. The Canadian titles are bought and simply a joke as well. Put any handler with a dog and he can finish it despite it's quality vs the Breed standard. This is not to say they are not "worthy" of a title but many have their CH. with bad bites, bad temperaments and just poor quality! From what I've heard raising a litter is very times consuming but it should be first and foremost a pleasure and a passion. The breeders I know do not call it work like the 4 letter word. I see their happiness and their sadness when the pups go. And lastlty, one should import a couple of dogs to get their kennel started and go on based on those lines not import 20 dogs and puppies and sell them.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Not done by a vet ophthalmologist. Cerf equivalent does not equal CERF.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Not done by a vet ophthalmologist. Cerf equivalent does not equal CERF.


 
The form states "Cert.V. ophthal", although I've never seen anything that read "CERF equivalent" before. I wonder if CERF actually approves the use of their org name to be used like this...


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

Dreamkeeper said:


> I respect the above posts - but I am just curious - have either one of you ever bred a litter of puppies ??
> 
> I agree that any reputable breeder should be laying out the expenses of having hips, elbows, heart, eyes etc. done. And most of the better breeders hopefully are involved with the showing of their goldens - which requires lots of time and expense.
> 
> ...


Yes some here have been breeding for a long time. Everything you say is "par for the course". Many heartbreaks in breeding and have had to do a C-section for only 3 puppies. Does that mean I should have sold my puppies for 3 times the amount because it was such an expensive whelp??? Ehem, NO! Selling pups also at different prices suggests some are better than others. In any case point blank is that most reputable breeders do not charge these prices and I have gone over to the UK to bring back 2 pups at different times. I know what the costs are.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

sterregold said:


> There are multiple CERF clinics held by Ontario clubs using ACVO doctors whose results can be submitted to the CERF database so that they can be accessed there and and through OFA. Since Dr. Zigler is not a diplomate of ACVO results of his exams cannot be submitted for recording and research purposes.
> 
> The GRCGT holds a one-stop-shopping clinic every year where you can get eyes done by ACVO Charlotte Keller, hearts by cardiologist Aaron Wey (who has taken over Joel Edwards' practice), hip/elbow radiographs (without sedation!) by Dr. Carol Graham, and bloodwork drawn for PRA, Thyroid, etc. There is even a multi dog discount, and the rates are reduced on radiographs as well vs her normal rate. We have been offering this service every spring for years, and years and years. It is in Hillsburgh which is just outside the city.
> 
> ...


Sorry to go off topic here but Shelly do you know when that clinic is being held in Hillsburgh? I guess I should probably join the GRCGT to get on the mailing lists too!


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Really? Some 13 dogs live in your house?
> I've been doing this since the late 70's. I DO understand "all the years, time, and energy" that go into doing it right. Your charging an exhorbitant rate for puppies does not make them, or you and your philosophy, any better than those of us who have been doing it at _least_ as long as you have, do all clearances, compete in one or more venues, subscribe to a COE, and price our dogs so that wonderful, loving families can afford to have one.
> I do see that you are a breeder who "fosters" dogs so that others care for them until such time as you need to breed them and get a litter out of them. My dogs are far more to me than reproductive organs. And as they are all right here, I CAN hug them any time, and don't have to count on someone else to do it for me.


I beleive Dreamkeeper is a relatively NEW kennel. Many of us have all invested much of our time and effort studying pedigrees, learning them etc etc. It's endless and a life long journey of knowledge. Good luck ripping people off. Unfortunately.


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## dmv22 (Mar 24, 2011)

Also I don't think any of the pups she bred have even reached the age of 5. So, does not yet know of any problems. Sure enough they will come. So, that trashed the idea of Health and quality. Breed at least for 15 years before you can even start making promises like this. I love this forum but honestly I think I will venture to happier topics. It's been nice reading all your posts and very valid pts.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I just called CERF. Spoke to Sara, who said that they have never heard of, nor authorized anyone to use the term "C.E.R.F. Equivalent" on an exam form, and to be extremely cautious if considering this as a valid clearance. 

So, no. This form is not the same as a CERF exam, according to CERF itself.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

We could forward that "eye clearance" form onto CERF... if they are like OFA, they won't like it. The vet in question is not a certified ophthalmologist. It just looks to me that he has an interest in ophthalmology.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> We could forward that "eye clearance" form onto CERF... if they are like OFA, they won't like it. The vet in question is not a certified ophthalmologist. It just looks to me that he has an interest in ophthalmology.


They asked me to and I already did.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> We could forward that "eye clearance" form onto CERF... if they are like OFA, they won't like it. The vet in question is not a certified ophthalmologist. It just looks to me that he has an interest in ophthalmology.


 
He apparently holds a certificate in Veterinary Ophthalmology, granted in 1993 from the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons in London, England.
Michael Zigler D.V.M., Cert.V.Ophthal.


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I just called CERF. Spoke to Sara, who said that they have never heard of, nor authorized anyone to use the term "C.E.R.F. Equivalent" on an exam form, and to be extremely cautious if considering this as a valid clearance.
> 
> So, no. This form is not the same as a CERF exam, according to CERF itself.


 

Thank you for the clarification. 
I had used Dr. Zigler to date for our goldens as I was told it was CERF equivalent and I was able to do heart clearances at the same time with Dr. Sandra Minors.
But I will now look into the other clinics mentioned -thank you to the person who posted information on the clinics coming up at Hillsburgh.

Thank you everyone for your comments and insight.
They will certainly all be taken into serious consideration.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Dreamkeeper said:


> Thank you for the clarification.
> I had used Dr. Zigler to date for our goldens as I was told it was CERF equivalent and I was able to do heart clearances at the same time with Dr. Sandra Minors.
> But I will now look into the other clinics mentioned -thank you to the person who posted information on the clinics coming up at Hillsburgh.
> 
> ...


You might consider having all dogs rechecked by one of the CERF approved vets offered by the forum member in Canada. I personally would not be comfortable until I did. Did this Dr. Zigler ever mention PU?


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> You might consider having all dogs rechecked by one of the CERF approved vets offered by the forum member in Canada. I personally would not be comfortable until I did. Did this Dr. Zigler ever mention PU?


 
I was just getting ready to schedule our annual eye certifications - so I will now be looking to the other sources given in the forum for CERF approved vets. Dr. Zigler did not mention PU specifically but I understand that it is a very serious threat to golden retriever eye health and that goldens should be CERF'd for their lifetime in order to work towards eliminating this disease in the breed.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

esSJay said:


> Sorry to go off topic here but Shelly do you know when that clinic is being held in Hillsburgh? I guess I should probably join the GRCGT to get on the mailing lists too!


You should join us Steph! We have lots of fun and are planning a field day for our May meeting.

Our clearance clinic is being held on April 9-10. Info for it and online registration can be done through the club website here 2011 Certification Clinic | The Golden Retriever Club of Greater Toronto Online registration closes on April 1st. We are also offering blood draws for the PRA tests through Optigen, which really should be done by anyone breeding English/European line dogs as a quick look at the RasData site wil reveal (RasData the dogs stated _anlagsbarare_ are carriers and those listed _PRA generall_ are affected). Optigen is offering a clinic discount as well, and registering the dog online with Optigen as well gives an even larger discount, so this is an excellent opportunity to have that test done as well at a substantial discount.

On the PU front, the ACVO I listed earlier in Midland for Dreamkeeper, Sue West, has worked closely with Dr. Melanie Williams ACVO who is collaborating with Dr. Wendy Townsend in her PU research, as we have a number of breeders in our area whose bloodlines have been heavily affected by this disease so these ACVOs are a wealth of information on what is happening in this regard.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

sterregold said:


> You should join us Steph! We have lots of fun and are planning a field day for our May meeting.
> 
> Our clearance clinic is being held on April 9-10. Info for it and online registration can be done through the club website here 2011 Certification Clinic | The Golden Retriever Club of Greater Toronto Online registration closes on April 1st. We are also offering blood draws for the PRA tests through Optigen, which really should be done by anyone breeding English/European line dogs as a quick look at the RasData site wil reveal (RasData the dogs stated _anlagsbarare_ are carriers and those listed _PRA generall_ are affected). Optigen is offering a clinic discount as well, and registering the dog online with Optigen as well gives an even larger discount, so this is an excellent opportunity to have that test done as well at a substantial discount.


Thanks for all the info! I'm sending you a PM as well.


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## Bearbud (May 4, 2012)

WOW...I just joined this forum and had to read the rules before I registered to post. I think you guys need a review of your rules....like not ganging up on one poster and each post should be a contribution to the discussion, not just an agreement with the last poster...that was referred to as "piling on".. if I recall correctly.
I have had 3 Goldens over the last 25 years. Each of them died from some form of cancer.
I decided to look outside the American gene pool this time and came upon dream keepers site.I spent a lot of time researching other breeders and comparing them to dream keepers....
I made a choice to get one of their puppies because I love the way their dogs look,their consciousness of diversity in their gene pool,the care they give all their dogs,especially their mums to be and their puppies.I love that the dogs live with them, that the family life revolves around them a great deal,that an imperfect pup born to them is given extraordinary chances to live a good life.
The price I will pay for my next new best friend is , for me, happily, affordable, and well worth every penny.
Please check your rules of engagement before continuing to treat dream keepers with the combative,mean spirited tone some of you are using.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Trust me. If the posts here were considered "piling on" the mods would have shut the thread down.

And trust me. The "diversity" of European bloodlines does not guarantee that the breed here in North America will be "improved", nor that it will be healthier, let alone cancer free.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Bearbud said:


> *continuing to treat dream keepers with the combative,mean spirited tone some of you are using.*


It's been over a year since any comment was made, so I don't see any continuing happening here.


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## Fantapls (Apr 24, 2012)

I actually know of two people who have owned DreamKeeper pups in the past, both which have died between the ages of 7-8 from cancer. Doesn't seem worth it to me.....


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Fantapls said:


> I actually know of two people who have owned DreamKeeper pups in the past, both which have died between the ages of 7-8 from cancer. Doesn't seem worth it to me.....


While I don't know if that is true or not (I don't believe this Dreamkeeper has been breeding that long according to their website the first litter was 2009, so it could be a different Dreamkeeper kennel), I would not condem a breeder due to a couple of early deaths alone.

There have been two of Goldens of my breeding that have died of early cancer, early I consider before age 9, one was 5 1/2 the other 6. 

If someone who is looking for a puppy asks a breeder about early deaths, and the breeder says it is not in their pedigree's they are either lying or haven't been breeding long enough for it to happen. There are no breeders/pedigrees that are immune to the possibility of early cancer (and I mean any pedigree, overseas or North American), if told otherwise, walk away.

When I am approached about this from a potential puppy owner, I have to be honest and tell them, I do my best to avoid such problems, but I know there is a possibility of early deaths (before 9), average age deaths (10-12), and old age deaths (12+) all within the same litter.

I have a page on cancer on my website, if anyone wants to read a bit more about the more common cancers found in Dogs Conquerer ~ Golden Retriever Breeder Ontario ~ Golden Retriever Puppies

Cheers
Rob


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## Dreamkeeper (Nov 3, 2010)

*Correction*



Fantapls said:


> I actually know of two people who have owned DreamKeeper pups in the past, both which have died between the ages of 7-8 from cancer. Doesn't seem worth it to me.....


You may want to double check your facts. I have definitely not had a golden from my breeding die at 7 or 8 of cancer -- I only began breeding in 2006. If you would provide the registered names of these dogs you mention you will see that they were not mine. 

I would however agree with Conqueror that the longer you breed the greater the likelihood that you will witness every health issue known to goldens at some time or another. There is no perfect line out there -- Our job is to research and minimize the risks as much as humanly possible. 

I have consciously sought after lines that in my opinion offer the healthiest foundation for our puppies - as I know any other reputable breeder would do. Unfortunately with genetics there is never a 100% guarantee in even the best situation.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Dreamkeeper said:


> You may want to double check your facts. I have definitely not had a golden from my breeding die at 7 or 8 of cancer -- I only began breeding in 2006. If you would provide the registered names of these dogs you mention you will see that they were not mine.
> 
> I would however agree with Conqueror that the longer you breed the greater the likelihood that you will witness every health issue known to goldens at some time or another. There is no perfect line out there -- Our job is to research and minimize the risks as much as humanly possible.
> 
> I have consciously sought after lines that in my opinion offer the healthiest foundation for our puppies - as I know any other reputable breeder would do. Unfortunately with genetics there is never a 100% guarantee in even the best situation.


I sent you a PM Dream keeper about something


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## Rae (Jul 17, 2012)

We have just obtained a puppy from Dreamkeepers and are thrilled. We were impressed with Christina's dedication to producing beautiful, healthy dogs with excellent temperaments. We felt fortunate to have made our way to her and were willing to pay more (but we did not pay $2500!) for one of her dogs. The entire process of getting a Dreamkeep puppy was great. We did meet other very good breeders in our explorations but in the end it is a matter of trust, the dog that captures your heart, and timing.


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## mickeychick (Jul 19, 2012)

I wanted a puppy from Dreamkeeper - they look gorgeous. Kristina is wonderful to talk to - I'm sure she'd be happy to answer any questions. We ended up getting our puppy from a local breeder Bydandacres. She is fabulous - very calm and smart. We couldn't be happier with her


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## Rae (Jul 17, 2012)

*we're happy!*

We are so glad to have our Dreamkeeper Golden.


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