# Regression



## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

I am really depressed and worried about the current situation with Ben. He was 3 years old when we adopted him last November. He had had no training and very little if any socialization. Basically, when we first got him, he was out of control. He'd jump and bite and tried to dominate me. Then we started training and things got a lot better. I was put in charge of him -- food, water, and brushing -- and he learned some respect. Jim and I both work on his training, but I do a bit more than my husband - largely because I care more. We had a trainer come to the house twice to teach us how to start to work with him and then went through Basic and Intermediate Obedience/Manners in group classes. Since he is very food motivated - he learned quite well how to do basic commands and a few tricks. Our obedience classes ended last week. He did fine there. Hard to get focused on us instead of the other dogs, but we did okay. Jim and I walk him every day and take him to places where he can meet people and other dogs about once a week. I thought things were going well, aside from a few incidents that were worrisome - i.e. he gets really aggressive toward bikes and runners. 

Anyhow, this past week he has regressed. Twice he jumped on me, trying to dominate me, and bit at my arm/shoulder/back. When we went for a hike today, he attacked a runner who had stopped to say hello, then jumped and bit at a family that was walking past us. It was excitement - but where do you draw the line between play and menace? 

We're supposed to try for the CGC this week. In the past couple of days we met a lot of people - both at the park and around the neighborhood. (The annual neighborhood yard sale was on.) Half the time he was fine - eager but not jumping or biting. People that wanted to pet him did, without problems. But about half the time he jumped up and bit at the hands/arms of people passing by. Nobody has been hurt - yet -but it seems like he gets more and more out of control the more we try to rein him in. We tell him to sit and stay and as soon as people get about four feet away, he leaps. Standing on the leash or holding his collar keeps him from hurting anybody - but it seems as if we aren't making any progress in getting him to do proper greetings. 

So - I don't know where to go from here. Aside from failing the CGC, which is a near certainty, I'm scared he's going to hurt somebody. Now that the weather has finally improved, there will be more people on the trails. We can't stop hiking, we all need the exercise. We don't have anybody who can help us with socialization skills. Besides, he's good most of the time - it's the random stranger that appears at a time when he's feeling excited or frustrated who gets the brunt of his attention. I'm not too worried about him hurting me - despite his recent aggression. He gauged his bites well - they didn't break skin. But a stranger may not be so understanding. 

What do I do now?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If by dominating you mean he's mounting you, that is an excitement thing. And it's why I do not let my dogs mount anything especially when they are young because it's just an irritating thing to deal with later when they are full grown.

The jumping at people on the hike can easily be corrected by snapping a leash on him and keeping him leashed when there are other people around. Assume he's going to be impulsive around strangers and try to be a couple steps ahead of him. And I WOULD hold the collar when meeting up with people. If it keeps his feet on the ground and gives you more control, it's better. 

Remember that none of this is your fault and the behavior as you describe can be handled and managed.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

You're in luck, he's not dominating you: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

It sounds like he's getting aroused, over threshold, and not knowing how to interact. And his current stress relief method is to start mouthing and biting at you. Not appropriate, so we need to decrease his stress as well as teach him appropriate ways of handling it.

1) Keep him below threshold, below that point of exploding. Stay a bit further from people, at whatever the distance is where h can respond. Reinforce good choices.
2) Get people to help that you know very well. Have them repeatedly walk past. Reinforce good resposes with food. Every single time a person walks past and he does well. If he jumps up, no reinforcement and have the person walking further away. Gradually, the person should move closer. Do 20+ passes, it should take 2-3 minutes. Then with another helper. These should be people you know well and that will follow directions well.
3) Find a good trainer who can help you do those set ups as well as other self control activities.
4) I would not hold him down hwen he wants to jump, I would avoid putting him in situations where he might jump up. If you are having to hold him down, he is not learning to make good choices, he is over the point of where his training currently is at.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Sounds like you have come a long ways and done wonders for your boy!! Don't give up on him!!! Teach him a good solid 'watch me' command, use high value treats, start working in a quiet area and gradually introduce him to more distracting environments. The idea is to get his attention focused on you while people pass by and/or you can take the opportunity to put him in a sit or a down. (One of my dogs goes 'nuts' when she sees people, she loves to meet them - I have been getting her to sit facing me and 'watch' me while I feed her high value treats until the person has gone by.) He should always be on leash when you are out, you can use a longline when hiking, so that you have control over him and he is not allowed to practice his bad behavior, a head harness or easy walk harness will help give you more control when he gets excited. One thing to consider is that you may be asking too much too soon, he may not be ready to meet loads of people all at once. If he does well in situations with a few people and gets 'excited' when there is lots of people -it could be a sign of 'overload' stress. Regression is common when trying to eliminate an unwanted behavior, at some point the dog figures if he 'just tries harder' he will get to do it, but if he finds his attempts unsuccessful the behavior will disappear with possibly the occassional 'moment'. You know he can do it, he has done it, have faith that he will be the dog you know he can be!!!


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Ben is always on a leash. Much as I'd love to let him run free, he has a very high prey drive and tremendous curiousity about what's around the corner, and I really don't want to lose him in the forest. We use a long leash for hiking and it allows him to explore and to run back and forth without running away. Besides, with his habit of jumping on people it's just not possible to let him be loose. 

Ben is usually good in non-distracting environments. At home, we don't allow biting or pawing and he's almost stopped completely. (Except the two incidents this week when he got frustrated and took it out on me.) Walking around the neighborhood he's fine. It's familiar, so he only gets excited when he sees a cat or rabbit. Even the dogs out in the yards don't excite him any more. Some people say hello, and he doesn't seem to mind those who ignore him. Even in class, after the first few minutes of super-excitement he was always Mr. Cool. 

But the woods have always been different. He loses his mind. He doesn't pull much anymore, except on downhills or after getting excited about seeing somebody or playing in the creek. But when he sees people, he forgets everything he ever knew. We've been working on getting his focus on us when walking by calling him back from time to time and when we see people we have him sit and stay - but then he leaps up and jumps on them. 

We don't have anybody to help us with training him. We moved last fall to an area where we know nobody. We say hello to the neighbors but that's about it. Part of our yard saleing was about getting to meet the folks who live in the area. Everybody is used to seeing us on our walks - but there's nobody we can ask to spend serious training time.

How do we keep him from getting excited? He jumps in the water and gets the zoomies. He hears a squirrel and gets the zoomies. A hiker walks by and he freaks out. On a trail there's only so far you can go into the woods to get away from people. If we talk to somebody for a few minutes, he'll relax and lie down, but as soon as we stop, he's racing again. And the next person we meet may be fair game. 

Where do you draw the line between playful biting and serious aggression? Obviously, I don't want any biting, ever. But is it just golden mouthiness or a real problem? I don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. You're right to remind me of how far Ben has come. But I still see how far he has to go.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I just reread your first post - you have only had Ben for six months - he has had three years with no guidance. I think Ben is suddenly realizing how lucky he is to have a permanent home, and people who love and care for him- he is HAPPY to be alive and can't contain himself. Hang in there it will get better!!!! My rescue Charlie came to me at about 3 years old, he had been abused and was very afraid of being touched or handled in any way, after I had him for about six months before I could even put a leash on him, but at that point I could see the 'light' come on in his head - he started to realize he was safe, he was home and he was loved. It was at about a year and tons of leash walks before he was totally convinced that his 'new' life was for real! I went thru the same 'doubts' along the way as you are now, thinking it was never going get better but with time and love, and gentle persuasion - he has come a million miles!
Try using a regular leash on hikes, for now, it will give you more control and Ben will not get so excited at being able to 'run wild' while you are out. Take along lots of treats on your hikes, reward him heavily everytime he does anything you want him to, if he is calm when you are talking to people (at a safe distance that he can not reach them if he decides to 'tackle' them), reward him with a yummy treat every 30 seconds or so, if he is focusing on a squirrel use the treat to get his attention on you, if he comes - even from two feet away - reward. Beleive me, he will be just as happy and tired after walking on a regular leash in the woods as he would have been zooming around at the end of a longline, which is giving him too many choices right now. I am sure it took you lots of time and practice to be able to walk Ben around the neighbourhood in a calm manner, at first I bet it was VERY exciting for him and hard on you. The woods are a whole different ballgame (context) -as far as Ben is concerned a whole new planet! and he doesn't know what he is supposed to do- so he needs you to teach him.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

In non-distracting environments, systematically increase the distractions. 

Is "we" you and Ben, or is there another person there with you? Use that person for the walking exercise I mentioned above. When he's really good....start over at a far distance with that person jogging slowly....gradually working closer. And then the person running. And then the person carrying things. Then waving toys....... anything that could be a bit more exciting....the keys are you do NOT want Ben to get so excited he jumps (that indicates that you made it too hard for him)....and you want to increase the difficulty VERY gradually.

Woods: Get there...get out of the car...and work near the car...if he's great, go a bit further. And a bit further. Get your family member to go wtih you to the creek. Initially walking through/near, gradually increasing the difficulty. EVERY single correct repetition, reinforce. And try to have it be SO gradually increasing in difficulty that he is always successfull.

How to keep him from getting excited: Increasing the distraction level gradually. So so so gradually. If there's not a lot of room tog et off the trail in the woods....find somewhere else to hike, only stay on the very wide trails, or don't go in the woods for now.

Where to draw the line depends on what you're comfortable with...however, he is showing that HE isn't comfortable, and with my own dogs, I would say that is not acceptable. We also dont want to risk him hurting anyone else. That could get you in a lot of trouble.

Aggression typically has a fear component, and at this point it sounds like he's frantically trying to get attention. However, friendlyd ogs can still hurt people. And dogs displaying this type of frenziedness....can become aggressive/reactive if their frustration is not addressed. 

If you can find a very good agility instructor, I think htat may be a good outlet for you. Agility has a focus on self control, gradually introducing new distractions, learning new skills, and lots of good human-dog interaction. However....if it's not a "very good" class...it could be harmful at this point in time (he could get too worked up and hte instructor may not address it well and you'd be more frustrated).


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Ginny*

Ginny

It sounds like you have done wonders with Ben in a small amount of time and that you love him.

Would a muzzle work for those times where he might come in contact with another human?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

GinnyinPA said:


> We don't have anybody to help us with training him. We moved last fall to an area where we know nobody. We say hello to the neighbors but that's about it. Part of our yard saleing was about getting to meet the folks who live in the area. Everybody is used to seeing us on our walks - but there's nobody we can ask to spend serious training time.


That's difficult, when you don't know anyone well enough to ask them for help. We're in the same situation. Most of the neighbors keep to themselves. We're friendly with a few of them, but it's not much more than a casual, in-passing kind of thing. Not a situation where I could ask them to bring their dog out and spend an hour or so helping me out with Riley.

Just an off-the-wall thought... Is there a Golden Retriever club anywhere near you? Or a rescue? Maybe you could spend a little time volunteering and get to know the people. You'd know ahead of time that they're likely to be more understanding (and forgiving) of a rambunctious Golden than a random neighbor might be. Maybe you could find a couple people who would be willing to help you out in exchange for some volunteer time on your part?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

If you don't personally know people who could help you set up a training exercise, see if the trainer who came to you could bring a couple of people and do some sessions with you. It really sounds like you and Ben would benefit from another session with a one on one trainer, get them to go with you to the area where you have trouble. Getting someone with experience can be a huge help.

If you are out hiking and see someone approach, really get Ben's attention on you before he sees them, and keep Stuffing his face with treats until the person walks on past.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

To be honest... I think the quickest and simplest fix is snapping a regular 4-6 foot leash on your dog and be ten steps ahead of him. Or if you have a long line on your dog, be ready to haul in the line so your dog is at your side and under control as soon as you see or hear people approaching. And move off the trail and wait for them to pass while encouraging your dog to settle. 

This is something that most golden owners need to do anyway because their dogs think they are the world's greeting party and until they learn manners and/or slow down, they are going to be trying to spring and jump at strange dogs and/or jump all over people. 

And biting could be aggressive or it could be an expression of excitement - especially if the people were running past. It's that chase instinct. He should settle down with time, but definitely not without preventing the chase behavior by using that shorter leash and giving him plenty of experience with watching people run past without chasing.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Is it biting or mouthing?

To me it sounds like mouthing - if he's excited to see the people and not breaking skin....

You should talk to the trainer and see what they think, many goldens mouth arms. Storee did that last night to me, looks 'bad' but she's just being a goof.

And watch for signals, if he's showing signs he's in that 'mood' then no visiting strangers.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm wondering if you're not projecting your anxiety as well. When we first met Coley it was at a training facility. There was a dog in one of those big plastic kennels so he couldn't see Cole and Cole couldn't see him. Cole was walked past the kennel and I swear that dog sounded like Cujo and almost moved the darn kennel! Well, Cole got scared an peed and tried to break the leash to get away.

I was told to *not* tell him it's okay when he encounters a large dog and to breath deeply and methodically so as to not project my anxiety when encountering that.

Long way of saying that if you see someone coming maybe you immediately tense up and "expect" to happen what does. Instead, calmly step out of the way and make him sit and wait. Again, reward, reward, reward with treat. But ONLY after he sits and waits for them to pass politely do you tell him "good boy" and have a party. After that is successful for quite some time, then allow people to actually stop and pet after they ask.

When people stop and ask if they can pet, I would simply say that he's a "work in progress" or "in training" and that neither of you are ready for that yet and then thank them for asking. I hate it when people just assume that it's okay to pet without asking!

I'm not a trainer, but that's what I'd do if he were mine. He just needs to learn what is acceptable and what is not. I second what everyone else has said - you're doing a great job!!!!


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Thank you everybody. You've given me a lot to think about. I really appreciate your input.


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Miracles do happen! Ben passed his CGC! I think the familiar environment (center where he's been doing obedience training for the past four months) and small group (only four of us from Intermediate Obedience class decided to go for the test) helped. 

It doesn't change anything. I know we have a long way to go before he really is a good citizen - but I am feeling a little better knowing that he can do it under the right circumstances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Congrats on the CGC!  

*laughs* My guy would have problems staying with a friendly stranger while I go out of sight, and the same thing with the previous guy, so I've never given the test any thought. I'm envious of all those who go through it and pass though.


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