# English Golden breeder - Starr Goldens



## Ljilly28

Make very sure you see health clearances for both mom and dad! The should be listed on either K9data.com or OFA.org or both. At least, the paperwork should be there for you to see for yourself. Hips, elbows, heart, and eyes. . . It's much easier to make sure all health issues are in order before you fall in love with a gorgeous ball of fluff. I don't know Starr, but any good breeder will be pleased you asked. 

Member Doolin knows lots about finding a good English golden. Maybe try him.


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## Lucky's mom

I don't anything about Starr Kennels ..meaning I'm simply not knowledgable about breeders ingeneral..you hopefully have met them and had some communication that made you feel comfortable enough to leave a deposit.

We have a 'buying a puppy" sticky on the forum and if I would you, I'd just go through that and cover your bases. If you find you are uncomfortable you might decide to forgo the deposit. But if you feel good aobut the breeder and what you are paying then you won't.

Good luck!!!!


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## BeauShel

At the top of the forum page is a miscellanous and then a puppy finder checklist comes up. Make sure to see copies of the hips,elbow, heart and eye.


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## SunGold

I take it this is them? 
http://starrgoldens.com/index.html


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## Bender

Never heard of them. Just be careful, if their main 'goal' is producing english style goldens, white goldens or 'creme' goldens. Regardless of the color of the dogs, or how many champions are in the background of the parents near or far, you should make sure they have hip, eye, elbow and heart clearances on BOTH parents - if you get the reg'd names of the parents you can go look them up on the OFA website database yourself (having seen several breeders who claim to do clearances on their dogs only to find out they didn't really mean it).

Lana


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## Doolin

Starr goldens website isn't very helpful to me when looking at where their dogs come from, what the lines are. There is a group in U.S./Canada who are very dedicated to this style of golden. They are very against using anything but "English Type" to describe their dogs. Color has nothing to do with "English Type", so those claiming that this is a distinguishing feature of this style of golden are very misinformed(and possibly not so great breeders). If you go to www.englishgoldens.net you will find the list of dedicated breeders here in the U.S. and Canada. These are the breeders who compete in all of the different venues with their goldens.


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## slkuta

Thank you for the responses. I was hoping someone may have bought from them. I have had several conversations with the owner, and we are driving out to pick up the puppy.


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## Sqwumpkin

slkuta said:


> Thank you for the responses. I was hoping someone may have bought from them. I have had several conversations with the owner, and we are driving out to pick up the puppy.


Good luck with your new puppy! And congratulations!!!

Please don't be alarmed by some here who judge a breeder simply based on what they see in a website. You've done it right asking for those who have experience with the breeder's doggies. I've railed on this topic before in another thread - people throwing off on a breeder w/out specific knowlege of their dogs or never having visited their facilities. 

Those health clearances mentioned above by the so called "intelligencia" here are a start, but they're not everything. Do NOT rely on them, alone. 

To prove my point, ask those who commented with "warnings" about your breeder to share their kennel names. Then search OFAA.org on that kennel name. 

What you'll find is even those kennels who boast health clearances wind up producing some puppies with hip problems. So if the parents and grandparents had great hips, then why the problems with the puppies? Answer: there's no proof that hip problems are caused only by genetics. 

It seems you've done this... and I recommend it too. Talk to the breeder. Examine dam and sire (and grandparents if available). Make sure all of the doggies you meet are well behaved and in good physical condition. Ask questions. Lots of them. Make sure their operation is transparent (everything is out in the open for you to see. Some breeders show only their good dogs while the "bad" ones are hidden out of sight). Make sure you examine the breeder's health guarantee and are happy with the terms.

If during your visits any red flags pop up, leave w/out placing a deposit. 

Again, congrats on the new puppy! And welcome. I, for one, can't wait to see pictures of your new baby.


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## Ljilly28

Did it snow in bitterville?


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## kwhit

"...What you'll find is even those kennels who boast health clearances wind up producing some puppies with hip problems. So if the parents and grandparents had great hips, then why the problems with the puppies? Answer: there's no proof that hip problems are caused only by genetics..."

But...with health clearences you have a MUCH, MUCH better chance of having a healthy puppy. 

Just wondering, Sqwumpkin, if you have ever had a dysplastic dog? If not, you can not even come close to knowing just how difficult/heartbreaking it is to manage their pain. If you have, I'm shocked that you would even come close to saying that health testing is not one of, if not the most, important thing when considering breeders. I will NEVER purchase another dog from any breeder that did not care enough to perform health testing on the parents of the litters they produce. No, it's not a 100% guarantee of a perfect puppy, but at least the deck is overwhelmingly stacked in your favor.

JMO


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## Golden Leo

When I go to breeders page I would like to have few information :
1. dogs with full names that they have in pedigree (not pet names) - that tells you where dog comes from.
2. pedigree - so I can see who are dogs parents and orgin ( this is ridduculos- saying that dogs father is 3 times world champion and not saying WHO is the father?!)
and 
3. photo in stack and photo of head so I can see how the dog actually looks like.

How old are those dogs? How many litters did they have? From what I can tell maybe they even don't have pedigree.
"european goldens" are not white, we have lighter dogs but that is not main description of a dog...


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## Tanyac

Golden Leo said:


> When I go to breeders page I would like to have few information :
> 1. dogs with full names that they have in pedigree (not pet names) - that tells you where dog comes from.
> 2. pedigree - so I can see who are dogs parents and orgin ( this is ridduculos- saying that dogs father is 3 times world champion and not saying WHO is the father?!)
> and
> 3. photo in stack and photo of head so I can see how the dog actually looks like.
> 
> How old are those dogs? How many litters did they have? From what I can tell maybe they even don't have pedigree.
> "european goldens" are not white, we have lighter dogs but that is not main description of a dog...


I agree with everything mentioned by Leo, I think the dogs they have are very beautiful and probably very well bred, its a shame they don't publish their dog's pedigrees on their website. Maybe its a US thing?

I also think its very helpful for prospective owners of a puppy bred at a certain kennel, to have the assurance that all breeding stock has all necessary health clearances. They only state this for their stud dog Storm.

At least you have a 'heads up' on these matters before you visit them. It does not of course mean that the dogs they have aren't completley healthy and in possession of all necessary health certification, but if they had it, why not publish on their website? I don't really understand.

Try to find out how many litters each bitch is expected to have... n.b. it is not good to breed a bitch on successive seasons, so if the same bitch is bred from time and time again this is definitely NOT good!

Good luck on choosing your new puppy, I really look forward to you showing him/her off on the Forum.
Tanya


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## Bender

Sqwumpkin said:


> Those health clearances mentioned above by the so called "intelligencia" here are a start, but they're not everything. Do NOT rely on them, alone.
> 
> To prove my point, ask those who commented with "warnings" about your breeder to share their kennel names. Then search OFAA.org on that kennel name.
> 
> What you'll find is even those kennels who boast health clearances wind up producing some puppies with hip problems. So if the parents and grandparents had great hips, then why the problems with the puppies? Answer: there's no proof that hip problems are caused only by genetics.


If you would like other kennel names to 'compare' to, both my girls are from GoldCker. Bender's mom had full clearances, as did dad, grandparents and great grandparents. Storee's parents, same thing (Storee's mom goes back to Bender's mom). Storee's brother just got an OFA excellent on his hips and elbows cleared. The father is a PRA carrier, this was found out after the pups were born, and her litter will be tested as will any of the dogs the breeder uses. Not bragging, but it's all out in the open information that the breeder, stud owner and all the puppy owners are fully informed on. Storee will be tested before she's ever bred, and the stud used will be tested as well. 

Now hips are just ONE of the health issues in the breed today. Elbows, eyes, heart, all should be tested and cleared on BOTH parents. And a reputable breeder will not 'boast' about clearances, they have them. 

Now to compare a kennel who produces similar dogs, look at Kyon Goldens http://www.kyonkennels.com/Retrievers/Goldens.htm

Very 'english' type Goldens, with clearances, registered names posted on their dogs (so you can go look them up on K9data or OFA), titles on the parents as well as the dogs they're using for breeding. If you do a search on www.offa.org with the kennel name, it comes up with 168 results.

If the website for the breeder asked about is - http://starrgoldens.com
They have nice white dogs, yes, and it does say hips and elbows done on everything, however it's hard to look them up based on call names alone - and there are dogs with the 'Starr' prefix on ofa, however it's hard to tell which dog is which without registered names. So yes, they could have hips and elbows done but a buyer would have to ask for proof from the breeder or more information to find out for sure. Heart IS a problem in the breed, there is no mention of any of their dogs having clearances for heart problems though. Eyes too are an issue in the breed, again nothing mentioned. So I have to question, are they doing clearances for them and not saying anything? Or? It also says things like 'Multi Champion parents' and 'lines are very rare' about some of their dogs - but there's no pedigree or other information on the parents or lines of the dogs they're using. 

To be honest, the problem I have is that there are breeders out there who do mislead the public as to what they're producing, don't show their dogs, register the pups or do health clearances, and charge the same or MORE than a reputable breeder who does all of those things. This kennel may or may not be like that, I don't know. The OP asked if anyone had gotten a dog from there and based on the website above, got that sort of response. Yes, a dog with parents who have good hips can get hip problems, but that doesn't mean the parents should not be tested. What about heart, eyes, cancer, allergies....?

Lana


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## Sqwumpkin

kwhit said:


> But...with health clearences you have a MUCH, MUCH better chance of having a healthy puppy.
> JMO


Until you show me a scietific study proving your point, you're parroting an idiology, not reality. Just because one FEELS clearances for hips give a MUCH MUCH better chance of a healthy puppy doesn't mean it's true. 

Remember Jerry McGuire -- "show me the money"? I say to you, SHOW ME THE STUDY proving your feewings.

Secondly, OFA evaluations are based upon xrays. An xray is a two dimensional image of a 3 dimensional object. Not to mention, there are all sorts of variables at play when taking the xray, like the vets ability to position the creature, was gas used to sedate the creature, and what strength of radiation was used? xrays themselves are not an exact science. Then there's the subjectivity of those who rate the xrays at OFA.

Also with respect to poor OFA evaluations -- for those who don't know -- there's a check box on the application for evaluation a breeder can select to NOT have an evaluation entered into the OFA database if the rating isn't a passing one. So now we don't know the true extent of hip problems because they're not all logged in the database.

Just out of curiosity, Kwhit, how many litters have you produced? Do you speak from experience, or are you parroting someone else's talking points that you have never really investigated?


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## Ljilly28

One thing is that a breeder who cares enough to do the upmost in health clearances cares enough to get your back if something does go wrong. We have always searched for pups whose parents have all health clearances and have owned 7 goldens: 6 hips good and elbows normal, but one elbow dysplasia. The breeder of the dysplastic pup refunded the entire purchase price of the puppy with a very sincere note thanking us for loving her anyway and consulted with the orthopedic specialist! That really helped us in paying for the medical care she needed. There has to be a depth of trust between breeder and buyer. For me to feel that trust, I need to see those health clearances.


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## Bender

If you go to the OFA website, there is a page where they list the different breeds and the number of dogs tested, number of displastic dogs and number of OFA excellent dogs, both in the past (1980, then 1990-1992, 2000-2002 and 2003-2004). It also lists the changes in the trends. 215.8% increase in the number of excellent ratings, and a -27.3% decrease in displastic dogs. Not sure if that's credible to you or not, but that's a start. 

On the Golden Retriever Club of America website there is more information on health studies relating to elbows, eyes and heart. All current issues within the breed, all things that should be tested for in breeding dogs.

I have to ask, Sqwumpkin, why are you so 'anti' health testing? Where is your proof that it isn't effective or helpful? 

Lana


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## AmbikaGR

Sqwumpkin said:


> Also with respect to poor OFA evaluations -- for those who don't know -- there's a check box on the application for evaluation a breeder can select to NOT have an evaluation entered into the OFA database if the rating isn't a passing one. So now we don't know the true extent of hip problems because they're not all logged in the database.


Your information is totally wrong.
Whenyou submit your x-rays for evaluation you have this option 
Authorization to Release Abnormal Results
_I hereby authorize the OFA to release the results of its radiographic evaluation of the animal described on this application to the_​
_public if the results are abnormal_______________ (initials of registered owner)._

There is no box to check, and the Authorization is to release the results to the public if the results are NOT NORMAL. So if the release is NOT initialed the results are not released to the public for this particular dog. However the results are still compiled in the overall numbers for each breed so you do have the information to determine whether or not the screening process is succeeding. So we DO know the extent in the problem because they are all logged into the data base.

I also am curious why you feel that the health screening of dogs is not important? 
Do you think we would get the same amount of problems if we were to stop doing them? 
I agree there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding but does that mean that breeders should not even try to better the odds that future generations can limit these issues even more than they are today? 
Should we just breed any two dogs and hope for the best? 
You made the comment that one should visit the breeder and see the parents to see that they are healthy. Do you think that is sufficent health screening?


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## ragtym

Normally, I wouldn't post a reply to someone who is so obviously trolling but in this case, the information that Sqwumpkin is spouting off about could cause someone a severe case of heartache in the future and I can't let that pass.

OFA, PennHip, GDC, OVC, FCI (European), BVA (England & Australia), & SV (Germany) grading systems and CERF examinations are simply tools that can help a breeder to make a more informed decision about breeding dogs. With the possible exception of the CERF exam, none of these systems have the ability to tell us whether or not a dog has the gene(s) for a specific disorder. 

What they can tell us is whether or not the dog is phenotypically (physically) affected by a disorder and they can give us an idea of the family history of the dog (affected parents, siblings, and other family). There have been SEVERAL studies that have said that, aside from genetic testing, these grading schemes are the BEST way to predict the hip phenotype in dogs. (http://offa.org/refhd.html & http://offa.org/hipguide.html & http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/chs_hip.pdf)

One study recently found that the FCI & OFA hip grading scheme are comparible in the classification of the hip joints for dysplasia by breed - http://tinyurl.com/b7fewd

It is not always possible to tell whether or not a dog has dysplasia, a heart murmur, SAS, PRA simply by looking at him/her. Having a vet say that the dogs "look healthy enough to breed" isn't feasible becauses some disorders cannot be correctly diagnosed without having a Veterinary Specialist in that field look at the dog. It is not logicial to say that just because a breeder has never heard of any problems in their lines, that those problems don't exist in those lines. 

Until we have genetic testing for these disorders, these tools are all that we have to insure that we produce the best possible puppies. They may not be perfect but they are most certainly better than nothing.


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## buckeyegoldenmom

All I know about Starr kennels is that I saw the website and tried to ask about getting a puppy 2 years ago and was told they don't sell to people in Ohio!!

:uhoh: Why?


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## LibertyME

I acknowledge that there is still much to be learned regarding hip/elbow clearances and what those results actually mean to progeny.

However the one thing testing 'proves' _to me_ is that the breeder is willing to put up the cold hard cash to have their breeding dogs xrayed and evaluated...

It 'proves' to me that the breeder is making _an effort_. 
They are making an effort to avoid breeding dysplastic dogs - in the _chance_ that there is a confirmed _definite_ genetic link at some point in the future. 
As a person that loves dogs and has known dogs that were physically limited by hip pain. I would hope that someone that also loves dogs would make the smallest effort.
If I had to choose - give me the breeder that is willing to make the effort.

I think it is fair to pick apart a breeder's website. 
They have chosen to use the web as an advertising vehicle.
They dont have to use the web.....
They have chosen what information to post.

This particular breeder has chosen not to use the registered names of their dogs. That is fine with me it is their choice. They claim championship bloodlines and write as though it is a source of pride. That they have gone out of their way to search for and have carefully selected these lines, above others, for their breeding program.
They may be proud, but one would never know from their site.

Perhaps it is a sign of their ignorance as to how important and meaningful it is for some puppy buyers to research bloodlines or perhaps they are indeed preying on the blissful ignorance of those who are looking to fall in love with a puppy.
It is my less cynical choice to believe that it is their ignorance.


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## fostermom

I can't tell you anything about that particular breeder since I am on the rescue end of the breed, but I do have to say that those are some pretty dogs!


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## Jackson'sMom

I generally stay away from threads such as these, as I have little knowledge of breeding, pedigrees, etc. But if I were ever to buy a puppy from a breeder, I would definitely err on the side of caution and go with a breeder who does all the recommended medical clearances. The genetic link to many of the problems that plague our goldens may not be 100% proven, but I would much prefer to increase my chances of getting a dog without such problems. Nothing in life is certain, but why not go with the best odds?


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## Sqwumpkin

ragtym said:


> Normally, I wouldn't post a reply to someone who is so obviously trolling but in this case, the information that Sqwumpkin is spouting off about could cause someone a severe case of heartache in the future and I can't let that pass.
> 
> OFA, PennHip, GDC, OVC, FCI (European), BVA (England & Australia), & SV (Germany) grading systems and CERF examinations are simply tools that can help a breeder to make a more informed decision about breeding dogs. With the possible exception of the CERF exam, none of these systems have the ability to tell us whether or not a dog has the gene(s) for a specific disorder.
> 
> What they can tell us is whether or not the dog is phenotypically (physically) affected by a disorder and they can give us an idea of the family history of the dog (affected parents, siblings, and other family). There have been SEVERAL studies that have said that, aside from genetic testing, these grading schemes are the BEST way to predict the hip phenotype in dogs. (http://offa.org/refhd.html & http://offa.org/hipguide.html & http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/chs_hip.pdf)
> 
> One study recently found that the FCI & OFA hip grading scheme are comparible in the classification of the hip joints for dysplasia by breed - http://tinyurl.com/b7fewd
> 
> It is not always possible to tell whether or not a dog has dysplasia, a heart murmur, SAS, PRA simply by looking at him/her. Having a vet say that the dogs "look healthy enough to breed" isn't feasible becauses some disorders cannot be correctly diagnosed without having a Veterinary Specialist in that field look at the dog. It is not logicial to say that just because a breeder has never heard of any problems in their lines, that those problems don't exist in those lines.
> 
> Until we have genetic testing for these disorders, these tools are all that we have to insure that we produce the best possible puppies. They may not be perfect but they are most certainly better than nothing.


Who's the troll? I have more posts than you.

Your brilliant point does nothing to address my point, which was one OFA Excellent male could be bred to an OFA Excellent female, and the majority of their puppies could grow up to be dysplastic. That's a fact.

I stand by my assertion: the certifications are only a part of the equation. (I never said they weren't important. some only assumed that.)

The OP simply asked if anyone had a puppy from a specific kennel. It's a y/n question. But some just can't help themselves, they have to throw off on the kennel w/no real knowledge of what's going on there. That's pure ignorance, in my book -- to comment on something of which one has no knowledge.


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## kwhit

Great information:

http://bakerinstitute.vet.cornell.edu/cahrc/CHD.htm

Sqwumpkin see the section titled: 

"What can genetics teach us about hip dysplasia?"

And no I don't breed, nor will I ever breed but I do have a Golden with severe elbow dysplasia and know first hand how devestating this disease is. And no...his parents were NOT tested. If they had been, they would not have been bred by any RESPONSIBLE breeder. Now how about answering my question:

Have you ever had a dysplastic dog?


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## missmarstar

Sqwumpkin, are you a breeder?


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## AmbikaGR

Sqwumpkin said:


> The OP simply asked if anyone had a puppy from a specific kennel. It's a y/n question. But some just can't help themselves, they have to throw off on the kennel w/no real knowledge of what's going on there. That's pure ignorance, in my book -- to comment on something of which one has no knowledge.


So below is your first response to the OP. Please show me how what you did is different than what you are accusing any of the other posters? Or does this mean that you can't help yourself and need to prove your own "pure ignorance" and need to "comment on something of which one has no knowledge"?




Sqwumpkin said:


> Good luck with your new puppy! And congratulations!!!
> 
> Please don't be alarmed by some here who judge a breeder simply based on what they see in a website. You've done it right asking for those who have experience with the breeder's doggies. I've railed on this topic before in another thread - people throwing off on a breeder w/out specific knowlege of their dogs or never having visited their facilities.
> 
> Those health clearances mentioned above by the so called "intelligencia" here are a start, but they're not everything. Do NOT rely on them, alone.
> 
> To prove my point, ask those who commented with "warnings" about your breeder to share their kennel names. Then search OFAA.org on that kennel name.
> 
> What you'll find is even those kennels who boast health clearances wind up producing some puppies with hip problems. So if the parents and grandparents had great hips, then why the problems with the puppies? Answer: there's no proof that hip problems are caused only by genetics.
> 
> It seems you've done this... and I recommend it too. Talk to the breeder. Examine dam and sire (and grandparents if available). Make sure all of the doggies you meet are well behaved and in good physical condition. Ask questions. Lots of them. Make sure their operation is transparent (everything is out in the open for you to see. Some breeders show only their good dogs while the "bad" ones are hidden out of sight). Make sure you examine the breeder's health guarantee and are happy with the terms.
> 
> If during your visits any red flags pop up, leave w/out placing a deposit.
> 
> Again, congrats on the new puppy! And welcome. I, for one, can't wait to see pictures of your new baby.


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## missmarstar

missmarstar said:


> Sqwumpkin, are you a breeder?



I'll explain why I asked...

You claimed to be looking for a puppy and wanting information on how to find a good breeder in your area....

but then in a different thread you posted detailed information on a bitch's heat cycle, when to switch her to puppy food before whelping, and information on where to find a good whelping box. 

And breeder practices and those that criticize breeders seems to be quite a hot button for you. 

Intreresting.


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## ragtym

Sqwumpkin said:


> Who's the troll? I have more posts than you.


For the record - post count has nothing to do with being a troll - you might want to bone up on your internet definitions if you are going to try to insult someone with one. 

You said in an earlier post:


Sqwumpkin said:


> Secondly, OFA evaluations are based upon xrays. An xray is a two dimensional image of a 3 dimensional object. Not to mention, there are all sorts of variables at play when taking the xray, like the vets ability to position the creature, was gas used to sedate the creature, and what strength of radiation was used? xrays themselves are not an exact science. Then there's the subjectivity of those who rate the xrays at OFA.


My response was an explanation of why those x-rays should still be done even with all the faults that you mentioned. 

You just stated:


Sqwumpkin said:


> one OFA Excellent male could be bred to an OFA Excellent female, and the majority of their puppies could grow up to be dysplastic. That's a fact.


Please produce a scientific study that supports this result. I can and have produced several that have concluded just the opposite - careful breeding of dogs with final hip clearances consistently produces dogs with better hips (phenotypically speaking).


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## Golden Leo

Sqwumpkin said:


> Who's the troll? I have more posts than you.
> 
> Your brilliant point does nothing to address my point, which was one OFA Excellent male could be bred to an OFA Excellent female, and the majority of their puppies could grow up to be dysplastic. That's a fact.
> 
> I stand by my assertion: the certifications are only a part of the equation. (I never said they weren't important. some only assumed that.)
> 
> The OP simply asked if anyone had a puppy from a specific kennel. It's a y/n question. But some just can't help themselves, they have to throw off on the kennel w/no real knowledge of what's going on there. That's pure ignorance, in my book -- to comment on something of which one has no knowledge.


 
Would you be so kind and explain to me what is your criteria when choosing puppy? ( from choosing kennel, parents and particular puppy from litter)
Thank you in advance.


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## Sqwumpkin

> Originally Posted by *Sqwumpkin*
> _Also with respect to poor OFA evaluations -- for those who don't know -- there's a check box on the application for evaluation a breeder can select to NOT have an evaluation entered into the OFA database if the rating isn't a passing one. So now we don't know the true extent of hip problems because they're not all logged in the database._





AmbikaGR said:


> Your information is totally wrong.
> Whenyou submit your x-rays for evaluation you have this option
> Authorization to Release Abnormal Results
> _I hereby authorize the OFA to release the results of its radiographic evaluation of the animal described on this application to the_​
> _public if the results are abnormal_______________ (initials of registered owner)._
> 
> There is no box to check, and the Authorization is to release the results to the public if the results are NOT NORMAL. So if the release is NOT initialed the results are not released to the public for this particular dog. However the results are still compiled in the overall numbers for each breed so you do have the information to determine whether or not the screening process is succeeding. So we DO know the extent in the problem because they are all logged into the data base.
> [/quote]
> 
> WOW. You really showed me! It's initials. Not a check box.
> 
> Funny thing is, I've been reading this board for months, and none of you so-called experts ever bothered to mention the existence of the ability to keep info out of the public's hands. :thinking:
> 
> Do you have access to the entire OFA database -- the entries that are not available to the general public? I don't. No typical user like me that meanders to OFAA.org has it either. So when we research a kennel's OFA ratings and no dysplasia is shown in the database, is it because all the puppies grew to be healthy? Or is it because the person who submitted the xray said not to release the info???
> 
> My point remains the casual user can't do too much research on a breeder sitting in front of a computer screen. And that's all too frequently what the intelligencia do here. Commentate on websites.
> 
> Now, with respect to the "overall numbers" you are so proud of... I'd like to first say that I never said OFA screenings weren't helping the breed. But since you opened the can of worms, how do you know something other than OFA screenings don't account for the improvement in hips? What if the general population is better educated in terms of how to raise dogs now -- they keep 'em off stairs or hard surfaces? Or maybe breeders are getting smarter in terms of which xrays to submit -- keep in mind, the Vet isn't mandated to send the xray to the OFA. It's the breeder's choice. And lastly, dog food has improved over the last ten to twenty years. So maybe better food is the reason hips have improved.
> 
> I'm not against certifications. I think they're important. However, there's no guarantee two OFA parents will produce an OFA certified pup. That's a fact.
> 
> Best Golden I ever owned I bought from someone who didn't have clearances on the parents. That puppy wound up being OFA Good, CERF and SAS'd. So maybe some people are just better able at spotting a great puppy when they see it, and they don't need the intelligencia here thinking for them? Kinda like the OP.


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## Sqwumpkin

missmarstar said:


> I'll explain why I asked...
> 
> You claimed to be looking for a puppy and wanting information on how to find a good breeder in your area....
> 
> but then in a different thread you posted detailed information on a bitch's heat cycle, when to switch her to puppy food before whelping, and information on where to find a good whelping box.
> 
> And breeder practices and those that criticize breeders seems to be quite a hot button for you.
> 
> Intreresting.


I am looking for a Golden to replace my Sqwummies.

My family has been breeding world class GSDs for over 45 years. They're one of the few US breeders who have sold GSDs back to people in Germany. So yeah... i know a little about that which I type. 

I do have a hot button for people who, like sqwaulking birds, parrot stuff out of their mouths when they really have no experience with what they're talking about. It's like listening to a "doctor" who's never graduated from college or been to med school. Or a "quarterback" who's never played a game of football. Yet they "know" so much!

Wow! You pay close attention to detail. Do you know me?


----------



## missmarstar

I really wouldn't compare someone who's been breeding Goldens for decades (as many breeders on this forum have) talking about the red flags a particular breeder website shows, to someone who's never gone to college spouting off medical knowledge. Please. 

No, I don't know you but you do have a unique username, that does tend to pop up quite frequently in the more controversial topics so it's stuck out in my mind I suppose. And I guess when I felt you were portraying yourself to be an average puppy buyer looking for information, it seemed odd that you'd be offering advice on whelping. 

Funny how you say you "know a little about what you type" but seem to think no one else here does.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Sqwumpkin said:


> WOW. You really showed me! It's initials. Not a check box.
> 
> Funny thing is, I've been reading this board for months, and none of you so-called experts ever bothered to mention the existence of the ability to keep info out of the public's hands. :thinking:


My point was not that it was initials (although rereading what I wrote does semm that way, sorry) but that your comment 
_ "So now we don't know the true extent of hip problems because they're not all logged in the database."_ was not accurate. 

In all the posts I have seen referring puppy people to check for clearances it has always been to see if the breeder was following the practice of breeding dogs that are cleared. And most times it has been explained that OFA is not the only way to obtain a clearance. 



Sqwumpkin said:


> Do you have access to the entire OFA database -- the entries that are not available to the general public? I don't. No typical user like me that meanders to OFAA.org has it either. So when we research a kennel's OFA ratings and no dysplasia is shown in the database, is it because all the puppies grew to be healthy? Or is it because the person who submitted the xray said not to release the info???


There are many reasons the info may not be in an OFA database. That is why people say ask to see the actual clearance. And I do think if you see many of a Kennel's dogs listed in one of the databases with clearances it does show that a breeder is trying. 




Sqwumpkin said:


> My point remains the casual user can't do too much research on a breeder sitting in front of a computer screen. And that's all too frequently what the intelligencia do here. Commentate on websites.


And my point if a breeder wishes to take advantage of the internet to advertise and state all kinds of "facts" about his dogs, we have the right to tell the "casual user" to be sure to ask to see the proof of these facts. So I see nothing wrong when someone asks about a breeder andtheir website that we comment on what we see, not being the "casual user".




Sqwumpkin said:


> Now, with respect to the "overall numbers" you are so proud of... I'd like to first say that I never said OFA screenings weren't helping the breed. But since you opened the can of worms, how do you know something other than OFA screenings don't account for the improvement in hips? What if the general population is better educated in terms of how to raise dogs now -- they keep 'em off stairs or hard surfaces? Or maybe breeders are getting smarter in terms of which xrays to submit -- keep in mind, the Vet isn't mandated to send the xray to the OFA. It's the breeder's choice. And lastly, dog food has improved over the last ten to twenty years. So maybe better food is the reason hips have improved.


No I do not know the answer, my inclination would be that they all contribute. But for this reason I see no reason to not impress upon the "casual user" the importance in my mind of clearances. While all the other things may contribute to the overall picture the genetics are what we have no control over and none of that affects the "genetics" of a dog. So you can do all the other stuff perfectly but if your dog is predisposed to the disease they will not prevent it from ocuuring, only lessen the severity. Again my opinion.

Breeders have always been "smart" in terms of what x-rays to submit and which ones not to since the early days. If you have been involved with your family in the GSD you are well aware of that. And you know that there are some breeders who will submit them anyway. The ones that scare me are the ones who do not submit but claim their dog is clear and breed it anyway. 

There are some points you make though that I do agree with.
One is the OP asked for comments from folks who had a pup from a particular breeder. They did not ask for opinions on the breeder or the website.

The other is that we think clearances are important. However, there's no guarantee two OFA parents will produce an OFA certified pup. That's a fact that no one ever questioned though. 

PS
I have to go out so have not proof read what I typed, not that it would matter much :doh:, so please forgive my spelling and anything that just seems to run on.


----------



## vrocco1

hmmmmm I could have written this entire thread, this morning, just by reading the title.


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## AndyFarmer

Very predictable isn't it Vern? Of course there's only one expert who has responded on this thread...everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about. W/E


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## Florabora22

I've never understood the point of internet squabbles. :banghead:


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## vrocco1

AndyFarmer said:


> Very predictable isn't it Vern? Of course there's only one expert who has responded on this thread...everyone else doesn't know what they are talking about. W/E


Well, I do agree partially. We all have our own area of expertise. We all also have the right and the desire to express our opinions. 

It is the predictability on all sides that I find particularly entertaining. I just hope I don't fall asleep on it. :curtain:  :wave:


----------



## Sqwumpkin

Well said, Hank. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my thoughts.


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## BeauShel

Sqwumpkin,

Everyone that tells people to see the clearances and go to a responsible breeder do it because the person has a better chance of healthy dog than from someone that goes to a person that put two dogs of the same breed together. And the numbers dont lie. Even if you dont want to believe it. If you have two healthy dogs bred from healthy dogs you have a lot better chance of having a healthy dog than you would bred from a dog with good health and one dog with poor health. The more people that are going to responsible breeders the less dogs are being bought in a pet store which are being bought from puppy mills or being dumped in shelters or rescues because the owner couldnt afford to take care of the medical issue from that "breeder" that was just in it for the money and put two dogs from the same breed together for the money. 

When you have seen some of the stories here from people that bought from someone that advertised puppies and they didnt know about the clearances and now have a dog that is not a pure golden or with health issues you should understand. We see that all the time here and I am sure that in time you will see it too. 

Maybe since you have been around the breeding of world class GSD for so long you know what to look for when getting a dog but the average person coming here doesnt and is asking for help. We never claim to say that the dogs they get will be free of health problems but we hope to better their chances. We tell people what to look for and what to stay away from. If a breeder puts a website up for people to look at they shouldnt complain when someone tells them the website doesnt give the person looking for a puppy the information they need to make an informed decision. And they should have the information out there for a person to go and look for from OFFA.org or other websites that file that information so the person buying a puppy can see for themselves. And then the person should still see that information in person when they go to look at a puppy. 

We have people here that are responsible breeders and know what to look for and some have been doing it for as long as your family has and they do it to improve the breed and love of the breed and not for the money like I am sure your family does. Because the responsible breeders arent making the money like everyone thinks. You may not think much of some of the breeders here but most of us that heve been here for a long time do think alot of them and dont like to see them slammed for protecting the dogs and potential golden owner.


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## AmbikaGR

vrocco1 said:


> hmmmmm I could have written this entire thread, this morning, just by reading the title.


 
Well why didn't you?? 
It would have saved me a great deal of time that I could have spent telling everyone how WONDERFUL my dogs are, again!!


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## AmbikaGR

Sqwumpkin said:


> Well said, Hank. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my thoughts.


And I DO appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts, and no sarcasm meant here.

Vern
I bet you would not have typed that this morning if you had authored this thread on your own! :doh:


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## AndyFarmer

Nice post Beaushel.


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## Sqwumpkin

BeauShel said:


> Sqwumpkin,
> 
> #1) Everyone that tells people to see the clearances and go to a responsible breeder do it because the person has a better chance of healthy dog than from someone that goes to a person that put two dogs of the same breed together. And the numbers dont lie. Even if you dont want to believe it. If you have two healthy dogs bred from healthy dogs you have a lot better chance of having a healthy dog than you would bred from a dog with good health and one dog with poor health. The more people that are going to responsible breeders the less dogs are being bought in a pet store which are being bought from puppy mills or being dumped in shelters or rescues because the owner couldnt afford to take care of the medical issue from that "breeder" that was just in it for the money and put two dogs from the same breed together for the money.
> 
> #2) When you have seen some of the stories here from people that bought from someone that advertised puppies and they didnt know about the clearances and now have a dog that is not a pure golden or with health issues you should understand. We see that all the time here and I am sure that in time you will see it too.
> 
> #3) Maybe since you have been around the breeding of world class GSD for so long you know what to look for when getting a dog but the average person coming here doesnt and is asking for help. We never claim to say that the dogs they get will be free of health problems but we hope to better their chances. We tell people what to look for and what to stay away from. If a breeder puts a website up for people to look at they shouldnt complain when someone tells them the website doesnt give the person looking for a puppy the information they need to make an informed decision. And they should have the information out there for a person to go and look for from OFFA.org or other websites that file that information so the person buying a puppy can see for themselves. And then the person should still see that information in person when they go to look at a puppy.
> 
> #4) We have people here that are responsible breeders and know what to look for and some have been doing it for as long as your family has and they do it to improve the breed and love of the breed and not for the money like I am sure your family does. Because the responsible breeders arent making the money like everyone thinks. You may not think much of some of the breeders here but most of us that heve been here for a long time do think alot of them and dont like to see them slammed for protecting the dogs and potential golden owner.


Regarding paragraph #1, show me these so called numbers that don't lie. A scientific study, not something from a bunch of emotional harpies who have never bred a litter in their lives. Show me the numbers!

para #2) What I've seen or haven't seen is irrelevant. Stop with the bleeding heart emotionalism. Show me a study, a scientific study, proving certified parents produce a greater percentage of healthy pups than uncertified parents. I would think it would, but what I think or feel doesn't matter. Let science reveal the truth. 

I think and feel that the sun travels around the earth because I can see it plain as day. Does that mean it's true? What did the powers that be do to Copernicus when he tried to reveal the truth?

para #3) The OP simply asked if anyone had experience with the breeder's puppies. Then the "nice" people here began with "the sky is falling" routine about health clearances. Really nice considering the dude had already made his decision and, I'm guessing, was excited about his new puppy... that is until the "rain on your parade" crowd did their dance. Nothing says "welcome" like "we found all these problems with your new puppy" and the breeder. 

para #4) You don't know me or my family. Thanks for stating publically that we "do it for the money". I'm glad I found you, god -- you are able to look into the hearts of my family members and know what our motives are. Brilliant!

I have never denegrated a breeder here. Actually, I don't know who is a breeder and who isn't. I simply respond to posts and, at times, offer another informed perspective. I didn't attack anyone for their breeding techniques, I didn't attack their motives for breeding, and I certainly didn't throw off on their breeding operation.

I see your'e a moderator. Do you think you could be a little more like Vern? He appreciates all perspectives and doesn't show outright contempt for certain people.

Now that I have read and re-read your memo to me, I still wonder what your point is. Are you implying that only those who parrot the same ol' talking points are allowed to offer their 2 cents?

Show me the study!


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

Not wanting to get involved and NOT taking sides, but I read Carol's sentence to say that you do NOT do it for the money... that like other caring breeders, your family doesn't do it for the money. It is a confusing sentence grammatically, but I don't think she was saying your family is in GSDs for the money. 

As for the rest... I agree a study would be interesting. I've had plenty of non clear parented Goldens and they've all been very healthy. But I have no proof of any of it.


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## 3459

Sqwumpkin,

I have read this thread with interest, and admire the patient courtesy with which posters have endeavored to respond to your concerns. May I contrast those responses with this quote:



Sqwumpkin said:


> . . .
> 
> I do have a hot button for people who, like sqwaulking birds, parrot stuff out of their mouths when they really have no experience with what they're talking about. It's like listening to a "doctor" who's never graduated from college or been to med school. Or a "quarterback" who's never played a game of football. Yet they "know" so much!
> 
> . . .


In regards to BeauShel's efforts to reply to your concerns, I didn't read BeauShel's comments as a slight to your family as GSD breeders. FWIW, I interpreted her comment to be placing your family in the group of those breeders who pursue it for the love of the breed. Giving strangers the benefit of the doubt is vintage BeauShel.

Posters have acknowledged that there are studies available, but still much to be learned. However, your posts, thus far, have not convinced me that you would embrace any scientific data that has been accumulated to date.

For the Moderators, I take offense to the tone of Sqwumkin's response to BeauShel. I realize he hasn't had a lot of time to get to know her. Once he does, I suspect he will realize why other forum members would take exception to his reply. But I cannot let it pass by without objection.


----------



## Sqwumpkin

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Not wanting to get involved and NOT taking sides, but I read Carol's sentence to say that you do NOT do it for the money... that like other caring breeders, your family doesn't do it for the money. It is a confusing sentence grammatically, but I don't think she was saying your family is in GSDs for the money.


Exactly... 

What was Carol's intention with that sentence? Grammatically, she's saying my family breeds for the money. But maybe her intent was to suggest the opposite. Only Carol truly knows.

This is the reason I have trouble with people commenting negatively about websites. It's dangerous making judgements, much as I purposely did with Carol to prove this point, about someone's choice of words. In most cases, the owner of the website isn't here, like Carol, to defend themselves from the ravenous wolves. 

For the record, I didn't think Carol meant to imply my family breeds GSDs for money.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Some web site owners may leave off pedigrees and other info because they are making their own websites and are inexperienced. Not everyone is a computer expert, and some people are learning to make their own sites, too. Not saying that's always the case, but some outstanding breeders have very tacky sites or websites with much information lacking, or that are years out of date.


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## FranH

Ravenous wolves????


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## Fidele

DaMama said:


> For the Moderators, I take offense to the tone of Sqwumkin's response to BeauShel. I realize he hasn't had a lot of time to get to know her. Once he does, I suspect he will realize why other forum members would take exception to his reply. But I cannot let it pass by without objection.


Thank you! 

I've read the whole thread, and find the tone of most of Sqwumkin's responses (not just to BeauShel) to be irritating and unnecessarily argumentative (much more than simply stating a differing viewpoint). Maybe not a troll, but, IMHO, wouldn't hurt to be treated as such.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Agreed. And I also think Vern would be the first to tell you that all their dogs have all their clearances.


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## Lucky's mom

I think it would be interesting to see a scientific study done involving actual dogs and breeding in regards to what dogs are most inclined to get dysplasia issues.....I'd like to see the methodology, who did it, how it was done. It would be a tough task....their are so many variables and dogs from most low-end breeders that don't do certs are hard to track.

I do see differences of opinion on the web, and heck, who knows...maybe the byb dogs are statitistically more healthy? My dog isn't.....he's a byb dog...but who knows?

But I think when information is lacking you have to use some commonsense and having healthy parents usually helps in producing healthy puppies.

However , regardless of whether the certifications are done or not, a breeder that keeps track of the dogs they sell, have a guarentee (warrenty?) and that breed for some sort of physical or structural competition are going to have the healthiest dogs. And these breeders do the certifications because its sort of a reputation 'requirement' so to speak. I do want to do business (if possible and if I can afford it) with someone who is concerned about their reputation.


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## AndyFarmer

Sqwumpkin said:


> I have never denegrated a breeder here. *Actually, I don't know who is a breeder and who isn't. *
> 
> I see your'e a moderator. Do you think you could be a little more like Vern? He appreciates all perspectives and doesn't show outright contempt for certain people.


Exactly, so why did you come on this forum, guns loaded, and attack these members who give their opinions of any given breeder in question (beit a professional breeder or a joe-schmo)? Maybe these members REALLY do know the breeders in question, their practices, their dogs, clearances, whatever. Have you once thought that these members are actually credible? I doubt it. 

You certainly have made a name for yourself, bitterville....quite fitting.

As your time increases here you will find that BeauShel is an unbiased moderator, unlike your presumptuous statement above JA


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## AquaClaraCanines

That's true, too. You're going to get black listed if you don't do clearances, even if you truly feel certain ones are not necessary. I'm sure most breeders do them because they want to and they believe in it. But, there are doubtless some that do it at least in part because it's one of the rules to be accepted by the community of breeders in your breed.


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## Golden Leo

I have found some good articles online on heritability of canine hip dysplasia, of course based on studies. They are mainly saying what we all know. But it seems to me that all of you have forgoten parents brothers/sisters, uncles, etc. All of them are big happy family and guess what- they share genetic informations! It is big diference when the dog hips are "good" in all "excellent" (hip score) litter than in all "poor" (hip score) litter. 
For me the main problem is that this "breeder" is not providing any information about dogs at all. If I'm buying something I want to know what am I buying. It is breeders responsibility to take care of the breed. If you don't care abouth health, temper, conformation- don't ruin the breed! There are too many people who ruin the breed already... 
And for ACC, if they knew how to put the pet name for dogs on web they knew how to put pedigree name also, and specially when braging of world champions. And of course photos of the dogs- breeder should know how to stack a dog, even bad stack is better than none. It is easy to brag with other people success, it is easy to breed WITH world champion, but it is hard TO BREED world champion. And it is extremly riddiculos not saying who is he... lol
I can put on my page that my dog is top dog in universe, 10 times winner of crufts and westminster, I can even tell that his breeder is lord T. himself... 
well he's not, his grandfather is junior world winner, top dog in belgium, his breeder is top breeder in sweden, breeder of world winners, european winners, crufts winners. It sound impressive to someone who doesn't have a clue about the breed. But for someone in the breed it is riddiculos since I am not saying ANY name nor kennel.... But I swear it is true!!!! ( actually it is  )


----------



## Bender

DaMama said:


> Sqwumpkin,
> 
> I have read this thread with interest, and admire the patient courtesy with which posters have endeavored to respond to your concerns. May I contrast those responses with this quote:
> 
> 
> 
> In regards to BeauShel's efforts to reply to your concerns, I didn't read BeauShel's comments as a slight to your family as GSD breeders. FWIW, I interpreted her comment to be placing your family in the group of those breeders who pursue it for the love of the breed. Giving strangers the benefit of the doubt is vintage BeauShel.
> 
> Posters have acknowledged that there are studies available, but still much to be learned. However, your posts, thus far, have not convinced me that you would embrace any scientific data that has been accumulated to date.
> 
> For the Moderators, I take offense to the tone of Sqwumkin's response to BeauShel. I realize he hasn't had a lot of time to get to know her. Once he does, I suspect he will realize why other forum members would take exception to his reply. But I cannot let it pass by without objection.


 :appl:

In the end, we (well I anyway) tend to warn/inform people of the issues around getting a puppy, in an effort to make sure they know what they're getting into and can make an informed choice BEFORE they get a puppy home and then find out that there's a chance of health problems that is increased because the breeder didn't do their clearances. I don't think it was put to the OP to NOT get a puppy from the breeder, but to make sure the breeder had all their ducks in a row. It would be different if the OP asked about the breeder and said 'BTW, I asked and all the health clearances are done on the dogs, it concerned me because it's not clear on the website'.

I think it would be pretty sad given the knowledge on this site to just say 'oh no, they are cute white goldens, heck buy two of 'em' while thinking the person would learn the hard way and better luck next time. If I were looking at a breed I wasn't familiar with, and asked if anyone had a pup from that breeder (say for the heck of it, a king shepherd from a breeder who breeds 175lb guard dogs, because I've never owned a dog before in my life and want a protection dog), would it be 'ok' for other people to suggest I reconsider?

Lana


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## AquaClaraCanines

Yeah, true- they should at least give full names. But, I wasn't necessarily speaking of THIS breeder. Just in general. It took me a while to learn to do tables and put an actual pedigree on my website back in the day when I had a site. But, now all you really do need is sitstay.com or the full name and a K9data link... times have changed!


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## Golden Leo

Yes I know 
I was just making clear that this isn't case with this "breeder".


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## Sqwumpkin

When I was in highschool, we had bulletin announcements every morning. One read, "Today after school there is a meeting for those who want to play softball in room 104".

Technically -- grammatically -- the sentence tells us they'll be playing softball in room 104. 

Ask any english professor. The correct wording for the announcement should have been, "Today there's a meeting in room 104 for those who want to play softball." 

Technically, Carol's infamous sentence tells all that my family breeds for money. So, I took the occassion to use hyperbole and make a point.

It seems to me that some people here read websites and take away from them what they want, much as I did with Carol's post. Then, like I did to Carol, the fangs grow, the gloves come off, and we blast away at the breeder.

I submit it's dangerous to comment about breeder websites for reasons demonstrated here. One person writes and intends one thing, someone else interprets it differently. It's absurd and ridiculous. Wouldn't it be better not to comment negatively in the first place since we're not sure what the website author intended??? And since we're really not sure what's going on over there???

Now if you have first hand experience with a breeder, that's a different story. And in my opinion, that is what the OP asked.


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## Ljilly28

Websites that advertise puppies for sale thrust themselves into the public domain and invite critical analysis. If you look for a lawyer, a doctor, or a college online, you'd be foolish not to have a criteria with which to judge what you see. While you and I may not agree on what indicates competence, there's no denying some doctors are better than others and some breeders tend to produce less orthopedic problems in goldens than others. You might think a doctor who lost 30 malpractice cases is no less a good bet than one with an unblemished record or you might prefer a doctor who went to an ivy league medical school or didnt- but you probably have some reasoned criteria. First hand experience is not the way I rule in and out my doctor, dentist, vet,or lawyer until after an intense screening process, and it's not how to find a golden retriever breeder either. 

Many here share a sense of what criteria makes a useful evaluation of a golden retriever breeder. You do not. You've "submitted" your opinion in several threads, and haven't communicated in an effective enough style to change anyone's mind. Meanwhile we haven't communicated in an effective enough way to change your mind. What more is there to say to you? If you feel comfortable conveying to novices that breeders here are slanderous & ignorant, youre going to have to eat what you dish out since then you come off as an internet "troll". You're using the OP to discuss your agenda which is worse than the sincere efforts of many to do a public service- especially those members involved in rescue. I, for one, do not like hearing a word against generous Carol who supports us in a caring manner day in and day out. The more oddly authoritarian your tone and the more you act hostile to members who have proven themselves loyal and trustworthy over time, the less seriously it's possible to take you. Maybe you are partially right or have some good ideas/intentions mixed into the silly taunting, but they get lost in your inability to reach common ground with most of your audience. If you start going after Carol, the only place you;re going to get is written off.


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## Doolin

The rantings of this person are almost comical. There really aren't any serious breeders who would put any stock into the comments they make. Sad thing is, here they are able to hide behind their fake name and city. Why, because cowards can do that. It is interesting how they very rarely answer questions geared towards them, especially specific ones. 

I have much more respect and interest in talking to people who aren't hiding. Let's concentrate our efforts on them.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

BRAVO to the last two posts. Well said.


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## Cratemail

Life is much too short to disparage other's opinions or experiences. This has been a forum that shares advice when asked and supports others when they have concerns. I appreciate all of the ideas, opinions and suggestions that I have asked for and have read from others. I hope that I have become a better Golden owner since joining the forum and will be able to keep my dogs healthy and happy for as long as I'm lucky to have them.


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## BeauShel

This is exactly what I mean. 

We have people here that are responsible breeders and know what to look for. Some have been breeding goldens for 45 years like your family has been breeding GSD's. They do it to improve the breed and not for the money. *Just like I am sure your family does it for the love of the breed not for the money. *Because the responsible breeders arent making the money like everyone thinks. You may not think much of some of the breeders here but most of us that heve been here for a long time do think alot of them and dont like to see them slammed for protecting the dogs and potential golden owner.
__________________
Sorry if my sentence wasnt more clear but I am sure most people knew what I meant.  

This information on the golden retriever club of america site is very informative for everyone interested in golden retrievers. This site www.grca.org should be given when looking for a responsible breeder. It has all the information on why we tell everyone to go to a responsible breeder. The first link has everyone about the health of goldens. Especially in the second paragraph under hereditary and breeding concerns. Also the big four link has some information on studies done. The code of ethics is good explains what a good breeder should be doing. 

The GRCA website says it alot better than I, a housewife not a breeder, ever could. I would have copied it but didnt want to get into any copyright issues. 

http://www.grca.org/health/index.html
http://www.grca.org/health/bigfour.html
http://www.grca.org/thegrca/code.html


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## vrocco1

AmbikaGR said:


> Well why didn't you??
> It would have saved me a great deal of time that I could have spent telling everyone how WONDERFUL my dogs are, again!!





AmbikaGR said:


> And I DO appreciate you taking the time to express your thoughts, and no sarcasm meant here.
> 
> Vern
> I bet you would not have typed that this morning if you had authored this thread on your own! :doh:


First, let me qualify my point by saying I have no idea who Sqwumpkin is, and as far as I know, we have never met.

I am a active participant in several Internet forums. I can tell you, that when someone bucks the conventional wisdom, the results are always predictable. First and foremost, disagreeing with the conventional wisdom is always interpreted as being rude. For some odd reason, I am among the few that do not see it that way.

I have said this many times right here on the GRF. Any person that purports to know what will happen when you mix the DNA of two living creatures is either a liar or is ignorant. To further that point, how do you explain that you can breed the same two dogs twice, and have very different results?

The explanation is that the possible results are infinite in number. I think you'll find even those with an advanced education in genetics will say much the same thing. If they don't know, how could a simple dog breeder know? This sort of knowledge is not contained within the entire Internet, let alone here on the GRF.

IMHO, knowing the results is well above the pay grade of any member of this forum. In all fairness, I think that is Sqwumpkin is trying to say, even though he might be a little course in making his point.


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## fostermom

I think it's interesting that if any of us came on here and started calling people names and making derogatory comments, we would have been banned immediately.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

I must be really slow. I don't understand how it's slanderous to suggest to someone that they ask to see clearances on the dogs (or get the registered names to look them up) because they are not listed on the website. Nobody suggested that clearances weren't done or that there was anything wrong with this breeder, only that the OP might want to ask for more information to make an informed decision. In this case, the comparison between a breeder's website and Carol's "infamous" sentence is completely nonsensical. If someone were trying to parrot the posts of the first few responders, it would have made more sense to ask what she was trying to say. 

I think an apology is owed to the OP here. It's unfortunate that their innocent question was used to rehash a vendetta from a previous thread. It would have been a better idea to follow Vern's advice at the end of the original thread and resume your discussion of this topic in your own thread rather than highjacking this one. But since this is no longer on topic at all, I might as well ask this. In the original thread, Squmpkin, you stated that you have your own measuring stick for breeders (making very clear that it had nothing to do with clearances). Given your family's history with GSDs, I think it would be more helpful to the mission of this forum to share your knowledge rather than just telling everyone else that they're wrong. Maybe you'll share here?

Julie and Jersey


----------



## AndyFarmer

fostermom said:


> I think it's interesting that if any of us came on here and started calling people names and making derogatory comments, we would have been banned immediately.


As I have, for a lesser offense at that :curtain: Good point!


----------



## Ljilly28

No one is saying S is a paid lobbyist for the puppy mills, but come on now. . . a visionary mobbed by a sheeplike herd of GRF breeders. . . a free thinker in a conventional world? Very romantic, but not plausible in this case.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

And to be fair, I think the objections to this user are less directed at the fact that he bucks the conventional wisdom and more at the coarseness Vern referenced. In this thread alone, the members of this forum have been referred to as "ravenous wolves," "emotional harpies," and "squawking birds," to name a few (just what I remember off the top of my head). I can't imagine many users on this forum getting away with that kind of derogatory language without even a warning. Imagine if we all related to each other in that way whenever we disagreed. Would be a very different forum.

Julie and Jersey


----------



## Lucky's mom

vrocco1 said:


> I am a active participant in several Internet forums. I can tell you, that when someone bucks the conventional wisdom, the results are always predictable. First and foremost, disagreeing with the conventional wisdom is always interpreted as being rude. For some odd reason, I am among the few that do not see it that way.


Yep, sometimes having a different opinion can bring a lot "stuff". 

And people of different opinions have learned to not take things personally.

But at the same time its good to learn to not present or frame an opinion as a personal attack. 

Its just words........just words....


----------



## Selli-Belle

All discussion of hips aside, the breeder does not state that the dogs have clear CERFs. PRA IS a big deal in Goldens and it IS genetic. Make sure these dogs have current CERFs.


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## BeauShel

slkuta,
I am sorry that your that your thread was hi-jacked.:hijacked: Are you asking if anyone is familar with the breeder or if you are asking if anyone has a dog from that breeder? 
If you are interested in the breeder, I suggest you go the grca.org website for information on what you should look for from a breeder. Good luck with your puppy and hope to see pictures of him or her once it is home. Hope you will stick around, we are really nice people even if it does get heated sometimes.


----------



## Volpe

My! [email protected] Very pale dogs. They look more like Maremma Sheepdogs than Golden Retrievers. Lol!
(Not exactly, but hopefully you get what I mean)

Good luck with your new puppy. =]


----------



## Sqwumpkin

Well... this thread is pretty much derailed. 

To the best of my knowledge, Vern and I haven't met. I must say he hit the nail on the head with his post. Sorry Vern -- because of my "endorsement", some may begin to think less of you. 

For the record, I feel some aren't reading my posts. Or maybe they're reading more into them than I intended... 

I specifically recall saying the health certs are a good start (but they're not the whole picture). I recall saying I feel that if dogs with certs were bred to one another, i'd expect healthier babies than puppies produced by parents w/out certs. But, it would be nice if there was a scientific study to prove it one way or the other.

I honestly don't know why people are disagreeing with the logic. It seems pretty straight forward to me.:gotme:


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I don't think anyone is going to think less of Vern... he's an important part of the fabric of this forum. There are many here that make this forum the caring, proactive place we all love... just see the thread on Harry. Friendships have been forged thru caring and sharing, not barbs and animosity. Many, many topics have come and gone with all sorts of thoughts and opinions all handled in a friendly way..... let's hope we can get back to that kind of conversation.


----------



## Jo Ellen

Sqwumpkin said:


> SHOW ME THE STUDY proving your feewings.


I can't imagine that was a typo. You are a very well-written person, obviously very intelligent. But you might get further with your arguments if you were... a little nicer?

:wave:


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## Pointgold

I think that I should get a prize for not commenting in this thread. (Although my "prize" is probably the fact that by not doing so I won't get banned.)


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Pointgold said:


> I think that I should get a prize for not commenting in this thread. (Although my "prize" is probably the fact that by not doing so I won't get banned.)


 
I guess you get the Miss Manners award for the day !!!!!:


----------



## Jersey's Mom

Sqwumpkin said:


> Well... this thread is pretty much derailed.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, Vern and I haven't met. I must say he hit the nail on the head with his post. Sorry Vern -- because of my "endorsement", some may begin to think less of you.
> 
> For the record, I feel some aren't reading my posts. Or maybe they're reading more into them than I intended...
> 
> I specifically recall saying the health certs are a good start (but they're not the whole picture). I recall saying I feel that if dogs with certs were bred to one another, i'd expect healthier babies than puppies produced by parents w/out certs. But, it would be nice if there was a scientific study to prove it one way or the other.
> 
> I honestly don't know why people are disagreeing with the logic. It seems pretty straight forward to me.:gotme:


Perhaps if you'd just stated things in this way, without all the animosity and name calling, people would respond to you differently. I don't really see why you're berating so many people when your first post did the same thing they did. You offered advice, based on your knowledge, and suggested that if any red flags pop up the OP should leave without leaving a deposit. Other users chose to be more specific about red flags, such as health clearances and claims of world champions without enough information out there to confirm. As I said in my last post, no one stated anything derogatory about this breeder. They only encouraged the OP to get all the info she/he could... same as you did. 

This thread derailed the second you started referring to respected members of this forum by any number of names. Again, see my previous post for examples, and let's not forget the ever-sarcastic "intelligencia." If you want to try and blame everyone else for the direction this thread has turned I can only say, pot... meet kettle. I have to wonder if you even read half your posts. You always seem surprised that people respond negatively for being unfairly berated. 

I'm still sincerely curious to know what you measuring stick for a good breeder is. We're all here to learn more, so why not share with us what you know?

Julie and Jersey


----------



## missmarstar

Jersey's Mom said:


> I have to wonder if you even read half your posts. You always seem surprised that people respond negatively for being unfairly berated.



He was "surprised" when Nicole was offended that he told her she was being used and her boyfriend doesn't respect her because she and her boyfriend made the decision together to live together, he was "surprised" when he offended people in the 2nd amendment thread with his "give me all the cop-killer bullets I can buy" comment among plenty of other outrageous statements in that thread, and now he's "surprised" that his remarks in this thread have offended people. I see a trend here...


----------



## ReleaseTheHounds

Interesting questions Sqwumpkin. I don't think I've noticed any of the studies you've asked for be referenced. (likely because they do not exist)

If negative results can be removed from this database of clearances, that makes this utility essentially useless. If genetics are so important in determining in what lines dysplasia can occur in, then why would any reputable breeder hide this information? 

ANyways, keep asking questions Sqwumpkin. I always find it interesting when I see someone with an opposing view come in and get savaged by the mob.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> Interesting questions Sqwumpkin. I don't think I've noticed any of the studies you've asked for be referenced. (likely because they do not exist)
> 
> If negative results can be removed from this database of clearances, that makes this utility essentially useless. *If genetics are so important in determining in what lines dysplasia can occur in, then why would any reputable breeder hide this information?*
> 
> ANyways, keep asking questions Sqwumpkin. I always find it interesting when I see someone with an opposing view come in and get savaged by the mob.


I think that's a great question (the one I highlighted), and would love to hear opinions on it. That option absolutely effects the usefulness of this tool for consumers looking to find a breeder. I do disagree though that the database is useless. While those results are removed from public view, they are still available to OFA and therefore are accounted for when looking for trends in dysplasia. Sure, it would be a much better tool if everyone tested every dog... but when you're working with any sort of statistical analysis you're always taking a sample of the population. While it may not be a perfect system, no one here claimed it was, but I think there's a lot to be taken from the database and hope that it will continue to evolve over time to become even more useful.

Julie and Jersey


----------



## ReleaseTheHounds

Maybe useless was a bit strong.( I enjoy hyperbole as well) But I do think that it substantially lowers it's worth.


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## AcesWild

Just with the database, if you find a breeder that has all their dogs in it and then you find one is missing, isn't that a clue of something you need to ask about? If the dogs records in the pedigree aren't there then that's a flag. Or a please note...you know? If a breeder has nothing to hide then it should be there...

Just a thought on how the database is useful.


----------



## AquaClaraCanines

yeah, I think you should not be allowed to hide results. WHY would anyone hide them, other than to give an impression that is not accurate. Breeders should not be shamed if a dog flunks OFA... it's just the way the chips fall sometimes. I would praise, not slam, a breeder with a dog who failed who posted the results.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

Having thought about it for a little bit, I can only think of 1 reason why they have this option available. Let's say there was no choice... good, bad, or indifferent the results would be open to the public. In my mind, the same breeders who are choosing not to release results would just find a vet who is "good" at reading the x-rays and decide whether or not to submit based on said vet's opinion. So the public would still never see it. The problem with this is that it greatly skews the ability of OFA to track trends. If only passing x-rays (or barely, super close call fails) are sent in, it makes for a much different picture overall. Unfortunately, the breeder unwilling to be 100% transparent with their results will always find a way around things. At least with the current system, there's a better chance of getting a more accurate picture.

Julie and Jersey


----------



## Tahnee GR

It's actually not the breeder who can decide not to show results-it's the owner of the dog at the time the xray is done, who has the option to show negative results or not.

As to why hide the negative-I have seen that information used in the past in an attempt to smear the breeding program of a kennel, or a particular dog. Ugly, but true. I do know that almost all of the breeders I have worked with believe in full disclosure of the good, the bad and the ugly.

Our current clearance programs are far from perfect, but they are the best we have now. Hopefully, we will eventually get DNA testing for many of them.


----------



## Pointgold

Sqwumpkin said:


> To prove my point, ask those who commented with "warnings" about your breeder to share their kennel names. Then search OFAA.org on that kennel name.


I'd like to ask you the kennel name of your family's world class German Shepherds, please.

Thank you.


----------



## Ljilly28

Pointgold said:


> I think that I should get a prize for not commenting in this thread. (Although my "prize" is probably the fact that by not doing so I won't get banned.)


This is a funny post- it is impressive, given the provocation. 

I had to delete a post bc it was on my conscience as going overboard.


----------



## Pointgold

Ljilly28 said:


> This is a funny post- it is impressive, given the provocation.
> 
> I had to delete a post bc it was on my conscience as going overboard.


 
Overboard? LOL If I had responded, the Titanic would have looked likea toy boat in a kiddie pool.


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## Debles

I applaud your control Laura! : )


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## AndyFarmer

Ljilly28 said:


> This is a funny post- it is impressive, given the provocation.
> 
> I had to delete a post bc it was on my conscience as going overboard.


Probably would have resulted in a closed thread ROFL!!!!!!


----------



## missmarstar

Apparantly Sqwumpkin is now banned?


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## Fidele

missmarstar said:


> Apparantly Sqwumpkin is now banned?


Apparently so. I've only been on GRF about 6 months & have noticed several notations of "banned" - how does one get banned? Is it a "life" sentence?


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## pb1221

What the heck happened to the original poster???? Too bad this thread went the way it did.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

pb1221 said:


> What the heck happened to the original poster???? Too bad this thread went the way it did.


I think that's the $64,000 question. Unfortunately, the thread became an ugly scene that is SO unlike this forum. Hope the OP will come back and see us for who we are.


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## Jackson'sMom

OP was online early this morning.


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## AndyFarmer

Yeah, he/she posted on Tuesday too, which is a good sign. OP come back!!!! The playground is safe now LOL


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## Thor0918

Ok, another stupid question..... What does OP stand for? Origional poster???


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Thor0918 said:


> Ok, another stupid question..... What does OP stand for? Origional poster???



Yep................


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## Thor0918

Thanks Betty. There should be a dictionary or manual for us old folks.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Thor0918 said:


> Thanks Betty. There should be a dictionary or manual for us old folks.



No kidding. I've resorted to googling some that I couldn't figure out.


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## Pointgold

Aw, gee whiz. I really did want to know the name of the family's world class GSD kennel.


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## tintallie

He didn't respond to my inquiry about GSDs either.


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## Pointgold

tintallie said:


> He didn't respond to my inquiry about GSDs either.


There were a lot of discrepancies from post to post, and I don't think that "he" was quite who "he" claimed.


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## tintallie

I have some expectations of what I expect in my search for GSD breeders...it's even more stringent than GR breeders...


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## Heidi36oh

I live in Ohio and never heard of this kennel


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## RRSinNC

Stupid question - but what is a GSD breeder?


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## missmarstar

RRSinNC said:


> Stupid question - but what is a GSD breeder?



German Shepherd Dog breeder


----------



## AmbikaGR

*G*erman *S*hepherd *D*og


----------



## RRSinNC

Oh! Thanks.


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## slkuta

USE EXTREME CATUTION! I don't know what happened, but Starr emalied me last Sunday and said they changed their mind and would not sell a puppy with breeding rights and sent our deposit back. This was very upsetting since we had placed the deposit last September and we had set up a trip to pick up the puppy There was no word during the six month between with email and conversation that there was any issue. They did not want to provide anything in writing before getting the puppy, after much asking sent 1/2 a pedigree. We are now working with a different breeder who is great!


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## Tahnee GR

Most breeders do sell their puppies on Limited Registration versus Full Registration, unless they are selling to an experienced competition home.


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## 3SweetGoldens

Tahnee GR said:


> Most breeders do sell their puppies on Limited Registration versus Full Registration, unless they are selling to an experienced competition home.


Very true....when I sold Lexi's first litter, they were all sold on a limited registration. However.....my pick female puppy was not, as she is with Lexi's breeder, who does compete in show, and plans on showing her. 
The same with Klondike...he was the pick boy of the litter. I am sorry that the breeder didn't tell you that from the very beginning. So glad you have found another breeder you are happy with.


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## slkuta

This is true, however, Starr promised us breeding rights up front. John researched my dog's pedigree and agreed to breeding rights. They changed their mind six months after our deposit was sent and with email and phone calls between after we had an appointment to pick up the puppy. Very disappointing!


----------



## Bradh2238

*I hope this helps....*

I got my puppy (Bentley) from Starr. I called breeders all over the country looking for Bentley. The more I called the more difficult it seemed to get. I could care less about the whole English Creme thing. My last golden was a rescue. I wanted a golden and my wife wanted a lighter dog, so Creme was a compromise. Starr answered all my questions, and even recommended I try to get a dog locally. I'm not an expert at this, but I talked to enough breeders to tell they genuinely care about their dogs. They provided all clearances and both parents lineage. Now for the good stuff... I flew out to Ohio to pick up Bentley so he could ride in the plane under my seat (could not stand the thought of shipping a dog as cargo). I have had a number of dogs, and none of them are anything close to Bentley. His temperment is amazing. He gets along with everyone and everything (dogs, cats, little kids, big kids, etc.. ) My vet even offered to puppy sit on her day off (she said he was braver and better behaved than even any of their older dogs). The owner of the local pet store says he is the best looking golden and sweetest dog she has ever seen (she has two goldens). The manager at Petsmart had about the same comments. He has never pooped in the house, and the only pee accidents he has are on the hardwoods (which are mostly my fault for dropping the ball on taking him out.) We got stuck on the plane flying home from Ohio. He held it for six hours at 8 weeks old and waited until we got home. He didn't want to go at the airport. As soon as I got home he went to the grass did #1 and #2 and went straight to the front door. He loves to play, but when I need to do something he just hangs out (sleeps or chews his toys). He hasn't chewed anything in the house other than his toys (and towels...he loves towels). Outside is a different deal. If something is attached or near dirt he thinks its fair game (wood chips, plants, grass, rocks, trees, etc.). The only saving grace there is he doesn't swallow anything outside and drops it immediately if you say "NO!". Now, I don't know what the "standard" is, and I'm sure he'll poop on the floor and chew up my shoes just because I'm writing this (Murphy's Law), but I do know Bentley is one heck of a dog. Is this because I just got lucky, or because Starr is a good breeder? Maybe a little bit of both, but I certainly can't say anything bad about them.


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## nuggetld31

*Starr Goldens*

If you could, give me additional information about Starr Golden's in Ohio, we would be greatly appreciate it. We are planning on sending a deposit this week to reserve a spot from Remi & Storm. They are beautiful dogs. Did he send you their clearance on hip, heart, & eyes or show you when you went to pick up Bentley? I guess when you are spending a lot of money on a dog, you want to make sure everything goes smoothly!!! Any help you can other would be wonderful. Glad you got so lucky with your new addition.


----------



## Emma&Tilly

I just went back to have a look at Starr golden website and I must say those are the palest goldens I have ever seen! Considering they are marketing them as 'English' golden retrievers its quite amusing that I have never seen a golden so ghostly white in this country in mi life! Also, what is a '3 times world champion'? What on earth does a golden have to win to get that title???


----------



## Debles

Emma&Tilly said:


> I just went back to have a look at Starr golden website and I must say those are the palest goldens I have ever seen! Considering they are marketing them as 'English' golden retrievers its quite amusing that I have never seen a golden so ghostly white in this country in mi life! Also, what is a '3 times world champion'? What on earth does a golden have to win to get that title???



I am glad you said that Emma! The first time I saw the Starr website I thought"Those dogs are totally WHITE!!!! Where is the golden retriever in a white dog?????"
The golden retriever has to have a shade of golden in their coat!!!


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## Emma&Tilly

Yeah I know a golden retriever can't offically be classed as 'white' but blimey, some of those dogs are so pale they are glowing...! Does anybody know the registered names of these dogs as I am intrigued as to where their European lines come from and would love to look at some of the 'multi-champion' parents that they refer to.


----------



## Tahnee GR

A lot of the very very pale dogs, with champion lines in them, that I see on many websites are actually Easten European dogs. I suppose that does not carry the same cachet (or price tag) that using English, English Creme, etc. has.

I often wonder if those kennels understand just who they are selling there dogs to. Not saying that everyone in the US who buys a dog from Eastern Europe is an HVB, but rater that Eastern European dogs are showing up on many websites that I consider questionable.


----------



## Bradh2238

nuggetld31 said:


> If you could, give me additional information about Starr Golden's in Ohio, we would be greatly appreciate it. We are planning on sending a deposit this week to reserve a spot from Remi & Storm. They are beautiful dogs. Did he send you their clearance on hip, heart, & eyes or show you when you went to pick up Bentley? I guess when you are spending a lot of money on a dog, you want to make sure everything goes smoothly!!! Any help you can other would be wonderful. Glad you got so lucky with your new addition.


I did not get the clearances until I showed up to pick up the dog. They had them all as promised. I'll openly admit that I am not nearly as experienced or knowledgeable as a lot of people on the site. I am however normally a good judge of character. I called lots of breeders. Tons of puppy mills out there. Then on the other extreme are the dog snobs (I find those equally offensive). The owners at Starr genuinely seemed to care about their dogs. They had no problem talking about each dog they have, and all the little nuance character traits of each. If you have some detailed questions, send me a private message and I'll answer anything you want to know, or I'd be happy to give you my number if you want to talk on the phone.


----------



## Bradh2238

Emma&Tilly said:


> I just went back to have a look at Starr golden website and I must say those are the palest goldens I have ever seen! Considering they are marketing them as 'English' golden retrievers its quite amusing that I have never seen a golden so ghostly white in this country in mi life! Also, what is a '3 times world champion'? What on earth does a golden have to win to get that title???


A lot of it is purely lighting (not in a deceptive way, just that the color is effected by how the light hits the coat). Bentley looks very white, until you see him in the snow or the rain. The snow gives a good contrast, but whenever he gets wet all you see is cream. I'm not an expert on this, but I take him everywhere (pet store, home depot, work, restaurants, etc.). I've been approached by two people who said they breed Goldens, both of which thought he was perfect. I've been approached by three people that said they actually have even lighter Goldens. My vet thought he was amazing. As for "3 time world champion" I have no idea about that, but my guess is it isn't any different than how America treats the NBA. Whoever wins that gets branded "World Champion," yet its really only associated with the US and Canada. I'm sure somewhere there is a World Championship for dogs.....I guess you just have to win it three times.

As for the pictures below, the two without the snow were taken at the same time. The one in the snow was taken with my iphone, and I tweaked the contrast/brightness because the lighting was so poor, but the color was not altered at all. To give a little credit to Starr, even they freely admitted that their dogs are not "white." I believe their exact words were that "the puppies would be very light, but as they got older the cream color would develop"


----------



## Doolin

World Dog Show
The World Dog Show is sponsored by the Fédération Cynologique Internationale for international championships in conformation and other dog sports. The location rotates between member countries.[8] The 2008 show was held in Stockholm, Sweden, and the 2009 World Show will be held in Bratislava, Slovakia.

I believe this is what the title would mean that was referred to earlier. It is similar to a regular CH in the dogs country, but here the governing body of this show considers themselves a world dog show. 

Bradh2238 would you be willing to share your puppies pedigree so we can see who the "world champion" in the pedigree is?


----------



## Bradh2238

Bentley doesn't have "World Champion" parents (at least as far as I know). That is another dog with the breeder named "Remi." I don't remember Bentley's Father's parents (without digging up the paperwork....which knowing my wife could be anywhere), but his Mother's parents were "Erinderry King of the Blues" and "Erinderry May Star." Those just stood out cause it was easy to google them. Personally, I don't care what type of championships he has. I don't care if he is even English. All I ever wanted was a smart dog with a good temperment that likes to chase a ball or a frisbee at the park and passed his health certs. So, as far as I am concerned, I got the perfect dog!


----------



## Emma&Tilly

Thanks for the extra info Doolin and Brad...now you mention it I'm sure I remember Goldenleo posting about the world dog show...sounds like an exciting affair! Erinderry dogs are beautiful, I really like Erinderry just the ticket from bluewaters. 

Brad, you certainly have got yourself a beautiful puppy...he is really, really gorgeous!


----------



## goldengirls550

Sqwumpkin said:


> . Then search OFAA.org on that kennel name.


Actually, the website given doesn't work since it doesn't exist. Please search 

offa.org :wave:


----------



## goldengirls550

Sqwumpkin said:


> Who's the troll? I have more posts than you.


Heehee "I have more posts than you" I actually do lol.


----------



## goldengirls550

Pointgold said:


> I think that I should get a prize for not commenting in this thread. (Although my "prize" is probably the fact that by not doing so I won't get banned.)


Lol. I admit to having an immature moment. But I admire you for the fact that you could hold off!


----------



## Golden Leo

Bradh2238 said:


> Bentley doesn't have "World Champion" parents (at least as far as I know). That is another dog with the breeder named "Remi." I don't remember Bentley's Father's parents (without digging up the paperwork....which knowing my wife could be anywhere), but his Mother's parents were "Erinderry King of the Blues" and "Erinderry May Star." Those just stood out cause it was easy to google them. Personally, I don't care what type of championships he has. I don't care if he is even English. All I ever wanted was a smart dog with a good temperment that likes to chase a ball or a frisbee at the park and passed his health certs. So, as far as I am concerned, I got the perfect dog!


Oh so his mother is from Serbia.... From Golden Duck kennel...
Well, I will keep my comments for myself 

And the dog who was 3 times World Winner plus JWW is Standfast Angus.
And I think 2 years ago World Dog Show was in Mexico. Last year was Stockholm and this year is Bratislava.


----------



## Ljilly28

Bradh2238 said:


> I've been approached by two people who said they breed Goldens, both of which thought he was perfect.


Well, I spent an hour at a show last weekend talking with an amazing woman whose dog won a National specialty and went to Westminster. She described her famous dog's strengths and weakness in depth, what kind of match she looks for with bitches, etc. By this I mean no dog is "perfect", except a pet dog in a pet owner's eyes- which is how it should be through the eyes of love. However, no good breeder I have ever met claims perfection for any dog.


----------



## Bradh2238

Ljilly28 said:


> Well, I spent an hour at a show last weekend talking with an amazing woman whose dog won a National specialty and went to Westminster. She described her famous dog's strengths and weakness in depth, what kind of match she looks for with bitches, etc. By this I mean no dog is "perfect", except a pet dog in a pet owner's eyes- which is how it should be through the eyes of love. However, no good breeder I have ever met claims perfection for any dog.


Really, you actually think anyone is using the word "Perfect" in the literal sense? Well, to clarify then, they were extremely impressed not only by the dog's appearance (which I have no idea how to judge nor care to), but also his amazing temperment and that the fact at such a young age he responded so well to commands. Let's all try to remember, there are a number of reasons people get a dog. Some to show, some as a working dog, some (although this is hard to believe) just to have as an enjoyable part of their family. If everyone tried to comply with everything expected of many people on this site, there would be very few dogs in this world and it would be a much sadder place. And as for Westminster, there is a reason there was a very successful movie mocking it. Its great to have a hobby/profession people can share with their dog, but leave it at the show. It seems the majority of the people here just want to share their love for their dog (whether thats a picture, that they stopped eating poop, etc..). A small minority gets overly focused on the negative. Let's just not try to go the extra effort to overly examine everything and find something critical to note. Thank You.


----------



## alewynk

*I have a new puppy from Starr Goldens*

I got my puppy on April 1st, is yours from this litter?
I found the breeder nice, but a little hard to communicate with, but he did provide all the necessary information with the puppy (parent's info). She is beautiful, but the most aggressive Golden puppy I've had (I've had 3 others). I supposedly had the 2nd pick and asked for a calm, laid back puppy and she is the polar opposite! I'm hoping she'll settle down eventually!!
What is your Starr Goldens puppy like?


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## nuggetld31

We are getting our lil' guy at the end of June an going to Ohio to pick him up from Starr Goldens. Remember females tend to be a bit more hyper than male puppies. Every female golden I have ever had or been around is hyper, except for my brother's. She gets excitied and then calms down. Good luck with her!!!


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## Bradh2238

alewynk said:


> I got my puppy on April 1st, is yours from this litter?
> I found the breeder nice, but a little hard to communicate with, but he did provide all the necessary information with the puppy (parent's info). She is beautiful, but the most aggressive Golden puppy I've had (I've had 3 others). I supposedly had the 2nd pick and asked for a calm, laid back puppy and she is the polar opposite! I'm hoping she'll settle down eventually!!
> What is your Starr Goldens puppy like?


I'm trying not laugh, but everyone thinks mine is sedated. He ate something bad last week and I had to take him to the vet. They kept him in observation all day because they were concerned that he was so calm. They had such a good time with him at the vet they didn't even charge me for keeping him all day. The vet said she had never seen anything like it. I do know he was the calmest one in the litter. His mother was Jackie. I picked him up Mar 29. Who was the mother? For what its worth, sometimes it just works out like that (whether its dogs or people). The calmest parents in the world sometimes end up with the ultimate Ritalin kid. Is he aggressive in a bad way, or just never wants to stop playing?


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## AmbikaGR

nuggetld31 said:


> Remember females tend to be a bit more hyper than male puppies. Every female golden I have ever had or been around is hyper, except for my brother's. She gets excitied and then calms down. Good luck with her!!!


Hello and welcome to the forum. :wavey:
I am afraid I have to totally disagree with what you wrote. It would be like you saying that every car you ever owned was red so ALL cars must be red.
The sex of the dog does not make it hyper, or not, it is the genes behind the dog and the socialization of it as a pup.


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## Pointgold

Uhh, LET'S GO RED WINGS! ?


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## Gwen

AmbikaGR said:


> Hello and welcome to the forum. :wavey:
> I am afraid I have to totally disagree with what you wrote. It would be like you saying that every car you ever owned was red so ALL cars must be red.
> The sex of the dog does not make it hyper, or not, it is the genes behind the dog and the socialization of it as a pup.


I totally agree with you, Hank. I have a 2 year old, Nyg, who came home to us at 8 weeks old & started puppy classes @ 9 weeks old. He's like a bull in a china shop & not one gentle bone in his body!:doh::doh: I love Nyg to death but I have had bruising, black eyes and feared broken jaw/nose/cheek from his "greetings". Nyg is just NOT a gentle boy! 

Now, Razz @ 5 1/2 months came home to us @ 11 weeks old and is the most gentle, calm boy you could ever find. 

Raised differently???? Nope - just different genes! I love them both equally!

In 1993, I did get an 8 week old female golden retriever from a well established kennel who advertised their English goldens as very calm & quiet dogs. Well, they didn't know Becky! She was a very high strung girl who was asked NOT to return to obedience classes. She didn't even start to settle down until age 8!!!!!! I lost her in March 2007 @ the regal age of 14 and she had lots of spunk right up till the day she died! God rest her soul!


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## Ljilly28

> Originally Posted by *Bradh2238*If everyone tried to comply with everything expected of many people on this site, there would be very few dogs in this world and it would be a much sadder place.


Bradh228, I am genuinely puzzled by how fast you've formed opinions about so many other peoples' opinions? It usually takes quite a while to get sealegs on a new forum, especially one with so many members. You already sound very weary of the site and its majority opinions, but you've only been a member since 4/5/2009, so perhaps you've experienced it under a different name or you've done a ton of reading all at once?

Many of the posters on this thread have logged countless hours helping/and being helped with medical, training and other issues, shared pictures in snow and sunshine, of old and young goldens in good times and bad.. .and are bonded with one another in a nice, supportive way. Maybe if you just participate and get to know people over time, you'll feel less like "many people" have expectations too high.



Bradh2238 said:


> Let's just not try to go the extra effort to overly examine everything and find something critical to note. Thank You.


Let's all listen to the caring, experienced golden breeders we've known here to be trustworthy and fair over time, and buy the puppy with the best chance of being healthy pets that we can. Let's support the Golden Retriever Club of America when we buy pet puppies, for the sake of the _dogs_- so puppy mills and breeders who either do not do health testing or make fake claims that their dogs are champions do not swindle the public or produce dogs who live with pain or disease. It takes a while to get to know people when you're new to a forum, so let's keep ourselves humble enough to learn from people with decades of experience as well as express opinions. Thank you.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Ljilly28 said:


> Bradh228, I am genuinely puzzled by how fast you've formed opinions about so many other peoples' opinions? It usually takes quite a while to get sealegs on a new forum, especially one with so many members. You already sound very weary of the site and its majority opinions, but you've only been a member since 4/5/2009, so perhaps you've experienced it under a different name or you've done a ton of reading all at once?
> 
> Many of the posters on this thread have logged countless hours helping/and being helped with medical, training and other issues, shared pictures in snow and sunshine, of old and young goldens in good times and bad.. .and are bonded with one another in a nice, supportive way. Maybe if you just participate and get to know people over time, you'll feel less like "many people" have expectations too high.
> 
> 
> 
> Let's all listen to the caring, experienced golden breeders we've known here to be trustworthy and fair over time, and buy the puppy with the best chance of being healthy pets that we can. Let's support the Golden Retriever Club of America when we buy pet puppies, for the sake of the _dogs_- so puppy mills and breeders who either do not do health testing or make fake claims that their dogs are champions do not swindle the public or produce dogs who live with pain or disease. It takes a while to get to know people when you're new to a forum, so let's keep ourselves humble enough to learn from people with decades of experience as well as express opinions. Thank you.


 
I didn't like your post at all. Its not hard to see what road breeding threads go and what opinions this forum has. I think its not right to suddenly shoot the credibility of this person just because he happens to have a positive review after buying a puppy from said breeder. 

This breeder's name was posted for opinions and I'm sorry...but it doesn't work to intimidate opinions off the thread that may not be "correct".

I think we can disagree without being bullies.


----------



## Ljilly28

Sorry you feel that way, Lucky's mom. He directly addressed me in a reprimanding way, saying negative things about the forum, and I love the forum. I just sought to answer the tone with the same tone. It's okay with me if you didnt like it. . .can't please everyone.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Ljilly28 said:


> Sorry you feel that way, Lucky's mom. He directly addressed me in a reprimanding way, saying negative things about the forum, and I love the forum. I just sought to answer the tone with the same tone. It's okay with me if you didnt like it. . .can't please everyone.


Nope....but I hope this remains an open forum where opinions can be expressed without someone being accused off-handedly of being an imposter.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Bradh2238 said:


> I called lots of breeders. Tons of puppy mills out there. Then on the other extreme are the dog snobs (I find those equally offensive).


Well if you are referring to breeders who have very specific requirements, make any potential puppy family go through an extensive interview and provide references, sell their pups on limited registration and the like, then most breeders on this forum would fit that bill of "dog snob" and with great pride. In fact those on this forum would also fill that same bill actually.


----------



## Pointgold

AmbikaGR said:


> Well if you are referring to breeders who have very specific requirements, make any potential puppy family go through an extensive interview and provide references, sell their pups on limited registration and the like, then most breeders on this forum would fit that bill of "dog snob" and with great pride. In fact those on this forum would also fill that same bill actually.


 
My reply would be modified to read "if you are referring to breeders who have very specific requirements, make any potential puppy family go through an extensive interview and provide references,_ *expect and WELCOME extensive interviewing and being asked for references BY any potential buyer*, _sell their pups on limited registration and the like, then most breeders on this forum would fit that bill of "dog snob" and with great pride."


----------



## avincent52

Lucky's mom said:


> I didn't like your post at all. Its not hard to see what road breeding threads go and what opinions this forum has. I think its not right to suddenly shoot the credibility of this person just because he happens to have a positive review after buying a puppy from said breeder.
> 
> This breeder's name was posted for opinions and I'm sorry...but it doesn't work to intimidate opinions off the thread that may not be "correct".
> 
> I think we can disagree without being bullies.


Jill
Stop being a bully.

Allen


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## Ljilly28

avincent52 said:


> Jill
> Stop being a bully.
> 
> Allen


Lol! I'll try Allen!

Actually, it's kind of exciting. Not one person has ever called me a bully before. Usually, it's _wuss_ or don't be such a people-pleaser(my boss!) . . .


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## avincent52

Jill
Don't be so modest.

Your dogs may all be Canine Good Citizens, but we know that you're an HBA: Human Bad A$$

Allen


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## Bradh2238

LOL...no, I'm all about putting people through the ringer and making sure every dog gets a good home. Whether its an in person interview, 4 page application, etc... it works for me. The people I'm referring to as the dog snobs are more concerned about what will be done with the dog and not as much the owners. I spoke to one breeder who did not want to give a dog to anyone unless it was going to be shown. So the fact that Bentley would get more attention than my wife and even taken to work everyday wasn't relevant (he attended his first board meeting last week). They just weren't all that interested in my daily non-show life with my dog. I had a friend looking at the same time who was turned down by another breeder (different breed) who was refused because they wouldn't commit to hunting. I love the interview process. I won't let anyone puppy sit without practically doing a background check. I "personally" find it offensive not giving a retriever or any other dog for that matter a really good home simply because someone wants the credit of having more dogs with championships (show or field). I'll spend a fortune getting Bentley trained and giving him a good home (already up to $10,000 at 3 months ....blame it on the fence), but my personal pride in watching him is all I need. As for the people on this site, I'd guess 99.9% of them are super caring loving owners, but you have to admit there are a few nut jobs that get a little obsessive (and for all the comments that follow....I'm not referring to anyone in particular). As for the bully's, I'm sure they all have the best interest at heart (personally I find it amusing). How fun would life be with no drama?


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## Lucky's mom

Ljilly28 said:


> Lol! I'll try Allen!
> 
> Actually, it's kind of exciting. Not one person has ever called me a bully before. Usually, it's _wuss_ or don't be such a people-pleaser(my boss!) . . .


Ah well your post wasn't wussy.

I thought it chilling. Perhaps I read it wrong and jumped to conclusions. Its possible.

I like a free and open forum where people don't have to feel targeted for having a good experience. I think people can be targeted for having opinions....but a good experience is not up for change.

I realize a good experience from Starr Golden isn't what some people want broadcast but I don't believe in totaltarian forums where such opinions are intimidated and I thought that is what I read. But it very well could be I misinterpeted.


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## Ljilly28

Lucky'sMom,now you're bullying me!


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## Lucky's mom

Ljilly28 said:


> Lucky's mom, now you're bullying me!


No...I'm a wuss


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## avincent52

Next into the Octagon
In this corner, defending Free Speech and the GRF
The HBA incarnate, LJilly28

in this corner, defending Bradh2238 and Starr Goldens.
Cesar's Alpha Dog, Lucky's Mom

Remember ladies, no eye gouges while the ref's looking


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## Lucky's mom

avincent52 said:


> in this corner, Surpressing Free Speech under the guise of defending it...
> Lucky's Mom


You'll have to explain that one to me. Because I don't get it. Well...you don't HAVE to explain it. But it would be nice.


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## Lucky's mom

Oh wait...I got it. This is a bullying technique right? And you are the defender of totaltarism?


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## avincent52

Lucky's Mom
I was on my way to edit my post when you posted, and I changed it because it's just funnier with the symmetry.

But what did I mean? I meant that you're claiming that Jill is somehow suppressing Brad's right to express himself when all she was doing was exercising her own right to express_ herself_.

Brad's a big boy and he certainly wasn't being shy here and I don't think that Jill's civil post would hurt his feelings (not that anyone seems to care about that around here) or 
discourage him from posting. (which it clearly hasn't.)

I think you're seeing conspiracies where there are none. What I see is a variety of members who hardly agree about anything much less everything, agreeing on this subject because evidence and experience back them up. Just because someone disagrees with the "conventional wisdom" doesn't make them a rebel or a deep thinker. 
Sometimes it just makes them wrong. 

And finally, remember that kidney punches are legal, but hair pulling is not! I want a front row seat so I can get splattered with the blood! 










allen


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## avincent52

Lucky's mom said:


> Oh wait...I got it. This is a bullying technique right? And you are the defender of totaltarism?


Exactly. It's a bullying technique. 
And how exactly am I defending *totalitarianism*? 

I'm just defending my right to watch a good clean, dirty brawl.


----------



## Lucky's mom

avincent52 said:


> Lucky's Mom
> I was on my way to edit my post when you posted, and I changed it because it's just funnier with the symmetry.
> 
> But what did I mean? I meant that you're claiming that Jill is somehow suppressing Brad's right to express himself when all she was doing was exercising her own right to express_ herself_.
> 
> allen


See no, that isn't it. 

No one has the right to accuse someone of being under another guise (another name) just because an opinion is not liked. That is an effort to destroy credibility that goes beyond "freedom of speech" or expressing an opinion. I was under the impression that this was a person with a good experience and now it was important to destroy his credibility.

That is what I read in her post. LIke I had said...I could have misinterpeted, but now I'm wondering if I was on the right track all along because no one has acted confused by my post which brought that point to the forfront.

To insinuate that someone came under another name or is hiding their true self is a very serious...insinuation. Perhaps seeing that our friend Squmpkin had this type of thing happen because he ticked some people off has got me on edge. He was a somewhat evil acting fellow but still....

Nope I'm all for free speech but not unsubstantiated insinuations designed to make someones opinion suspect. 

I have re-read the post and I could be all wrong. But I sure would like some help in seeing that if this is the case.


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## Ljilly28

Best of luck to the OP in finding a healthy bright-eyed pup.

Brad, I'm glad you love your pup, and I'm sorry I took offense to your tone rather than let it go peacefully.

Starr Goldens, I don't know you and I hope you are very caring and responsible breeders.

Lucky'smom, we have entertained Allen, but now it's time to go out to dinner and a movie in real life. We do not agree about politics or dogs, but I love the forum and all its characters even if they dont love me back. Cheers!


----------



## Lucky's mom

Ljilly28 said:


> Lucky'smom, we have entertained Allen, but now it's time to go out to dinner and a movie in real life. We do not agree about politics or dogs, but I love the forum and all its characters even if they dont love me back. Cheers!


Yes, I agree. I think Allen has had enough fun for one day:wave:


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## avincent52

What, no fight? 
Bummer!


----------



## AmbikaGR

Bradh2238 said:


> LOL...no, I'm all about putting people through the ringer and making sure every dog gets a good home. Whether its an in person interview, 4 page application, etc... it works for me. The people I'm referring to as the dog snobs are more concerned about what will be done with the dog and not as much the owners. I spoke to one breeder who did not want to give a dog to anyone unless it was going to be shown. So the fact that Bentley would get more attention than my wife and even taken to work everyday wasn't relevant (he attended his first board meeting last week). They just weren't all that interested in my daily non-show life with my dog. I had a friend looking at the same time who was turned down by another breeder (different breed) who was refused because they wouldn't commit to hunting. I love the interview process. I won't let anyone puppy sit without practically doing a background check. I "personally" find it offensive not giving a retriever or any other dog for that matter a really good home simply because someone wants the credit of having more dogs with championships (show or field). I'll spend a fortune getting Bentley trained and giving him a good home (already up to $10,000 at 3 months ....blame it on the fence), but my personal pride in watching him is all I need. As for the people on this site, I'd guess 99.9% of them are super caring loving owners, but you have to admit there are a few nut jobs that get a little obsessive (and for all the comments that follow....I'm not referring to anyone in particular). As for the bully's, I'm sure they all have the best interest at heart (personally I find it amusing). How fun would life be with no drama?


 
Well on that note I will have to agree with you, although snob but be too NICE a description. But I truly believe breeders like this are few and far between. Also please keep in mind that breeders are people and as with any other walk of life you will find all kinds. 

It sounds like Bently is getting to live a "Dog's Life" and for those in dogs, that is a VERY good thing! 

Nut Job #1 signing off!


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## Bradh2238

I think we all just need a group hug........followed by an extremely unhealthy number of cocktails


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## avincent52

> I think we all just need a group hug........followed by an extremely unhealthy number of cocktails


Group hug? Would you settle for a headlock?
I'm still hoping that Jill and Lucky's Mom will throw down. 

That was pretty funny though, two Hootch points for you in honor of our departed friend John "Hootch" Vayda!!










But seriously, Brad, a sincere welcome to the forum. Part of what's going on here is a bit of a communication gender gap. We guys (you are a guy, aren't you Brad?) assume that bullying involves blood and broken bones, or at at least a little ear pulling. 

And another GRFer suggested to me the other day that in order to be a good breeder you probably _do_ have to be a little nuts, caring more about your dogs than people. Those pups destined for show and working homes may not have quite the cushy life that Bentley will, but they'll be loved and well cared for and in the big picture, where so many animals are mistreated, it hardly strikes me as a problem. Indeed, anyone who's breeding so few dogs that they can refuse a pup to a qualified home is more likely part of the solution than the problem IMHO.

That said, Bentley sounds like a superb pup. Almost as perfect as my Tessie. How 'bout some pics?
I guess, for the moment, we'll have to settle for some dog wrestling shots.

One little thing: It'd be so much easier to read your posts if you put in a few paragraph breaks.

best
Allen


----------



## JEISEN0827

*Starr Goldens*

Hi,

I know this reply is late but I was wondering if you got your puppy from Starr. We actually purchased a male pup and he will be 2 on Feb. 1st, 2010. He is an incredibly beautiful 83 pound pure white golden.

At first I was skeptical as well. But, after having visited the kennel, owning my dog, and having great feedback from my vet, I am so lucky we went forward and got Oliver.

In fact, my best friend bought one as well from a different litter and he is equally as beautiful!!

Would love to hear about your dog!


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## Bradh2238

Yes, I got my puppy from Starr. We don't have anything but good things to say about Bentley. He has a sister coming in November, also from Starr. I don't suppose you are in Denver? I ran into a family the other night that had a dog from Starr that was 83 pounds, who also had a friend with a pup from a different litter.


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## Hayden

*Wanting to investigate Starr Goldens*

I am having trouble getting this breeder to return contact me. His dogs look beautiful. Can anyone give me some information about them? :wave:


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## Bradh2238

They are a small breeder in Ohio. Great dogs. We got Bentley there. He goes everywhere with me. I've never been anywhere without someone stopping to comment on how great his temperment is. We are waiting on a girl right now. Expect a decent wait for a dog from them. As for the communication, they have always called me back or emailed me (not necessarily immediately). I've only had good experiences dealing with the owners (pre and post purchase). If you need more detail just send me a private message.


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## AmbikaGR

Hayden said:


> Can anyone give me some information about them? :wave:


 
Hi and welcome to the group! :wavey:

Was there something in particular you wanted to ask that was not covered in the previous 17 pages? If so ask away.


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## alewynk

Hi, I have a 7 1/2 month old female from Starr Goldens (see my photos of Lacey in the Puppy pics). She is absolutely beautiful and very sweet. She was the most difficult Golden puppy I've had (I've had 3)--but has settled down nicely and will continue to improve with age I feel sure. They are a little hard to deal with, as he is not very Internet savvy, but is fine over the phone, will return phone calls and spend as much time talking as you have to spend! We never went to the kennel, had her shipped sight unseen except for emailed photos! Shipping was perfect, no problems at all. They do state in their contract that they require you to wait to neuter until 12-24 months or contract (guarantee) is void. Also won't give you the AKC papers until 12 months. Ask to see contract before buying to be sure you agree with terms. 
Lacey's Mom is Irish Song "Of Golden Duck" and her Dad is Goldbrior Victory Dash.
Overall, we're very happy with her!


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## MAJacksonK9OTR

*Starr golden*

Does anyone know or have a golden from Starr Goldens? I spoke to owner who is really nice but is very careful about putting all info out there on internet but answered all my ?' s but I'm just trying to do my homework. I'm getting more confused the more research I do I need a flow chart!


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## dc_glidden

Congrats on the Puppy, But I am curious, what is an English Golden?

I hear this term used a lot on my Labrador Forums.  

Afaik, there is only one type to the breed, within standard and not.

Now I can understand, my Breeder is from England, but lives in Ohio


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## AmbikaGR

dc_glidden said:


> Congrats on the Puppy, But I am curious, what is an English Golden?



There is *NO* such thing in Goldens. It is strictly a marketing ploy to get more money for their pups. I would stay away from anyone who advertised their Goldens this way.


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## MAJacksonK9OTR

I'm so glad to see your info. After months of looking researching breeders and getting more confused about who is really a good breeder my gut tells me to go with him. I just got off the phone with him and too funny I had sent my 15 questions etc... Heard nothing then called. He like I is not a fan of the Internet and prefer the phone but it really sounds like he is a rare find and my main issues is after years of health problems with goldens I just want a health dog. If you can think of anything please let me know I'm waiting for his contract to look over. Any health issues so far?


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## mist

as Hank has stated there is *NO* such thing as an English Golden, most if not all dogs marketed this way come from eastern Europe and have very few English ancestors in their recent pedigree's. 

Our dogs are no less prone to illness than a golden bred from American Goldens.


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## rappwizard

MAJacksonK9OTR said:


> I'm so glad to see your info. After months of looking researching breeders and getting more confused about who is really a good breeder my gut tells me to go with him. I just got off the phone with him and too funny I had sent my 15 questions etc... Heard nothing then called. He like I is not a fan of the Internet and prefer the phone but it really sounds like he is a rare find and my main issues is after years of health problems with goldens I just want a health dog. If you can think of anything please let me know I'm waiting for his contract to look over. Any health issues so far?


What did the breeder say when you asked about health clearances? I see only cardiac listed on the OFA website for the two goldens listed by a prior posted (Irish Spring and Goldenbrior). Reason I ask is that you state that health is important to you--is it as, or more important than looks? Or less so?


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## goldensrbest

I am sooo tired of asking about this.


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## BeauShel

MAJackonF9OTR 
If you are in Florida and are interested in the lighter colored goldens look at this website for some breeders.
http://www.goldenbreedersresource.org/kennel_search_results.php

They should have all the clearances for their dogs eye,heart, elbows and hips. I would also read the Puppy Buyers Fact Checker at the top of the forum. It has alot of great information on what to look for in a breeder. You should be able to find a breeder here in florida.


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## MAJacksonK9OTR

*Starr goldens*

I have info for all. I had spoke with this breeder and he tells me no info anywhere on his dogs becausevhe has had issues with people stealing his info. having problems w/ other breeders stealing his pictures and content and afraid that They will find his source in Hungary. He fears that people are importing these dogs and breeding with out the concern or welfare of the dogs. That is fine but because I requested the info on all certs with the contract he was sending before I send him a cert check. He responds to me that I'm distrustful and should find another breeder. ?????there is only a bit of info on Internet about his male which he says is wrong and someone purposely wrongly put it in there. I really am interested in his dogs but am I wrong for being upset about this? You would not buy a house with out the documents? He knows he had a very unique looking dogs and I believe he really is a good breeder but why would you not just be upfront and honest with the documents and history of the dogs background etc..with someone who is purchasing a dog unless you have something to hide? I'm sad about this as I thought I had finally found my desired puppy but I guess not. Just wanted to share so others make sure they are protected.


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## Jersey's Mom

MAJacksonK9OTR said:


> I have info for all. I had spoke with this breeder and he tells me no info anywhere on his dogs becausevhe has had issues with people stealing his info. having problems w/ other breeders stealing his pictures and content and afraid that They will find his source in Hungary. He fears that people are importing these dogs and breeding with out the concern or welfare of the dogs. That is fine but because I requested the info on all certs with the contract he was sending before I send him a cert check. He responds to me that I'm distrustful and should find another breeder. ?????there is only a bit of info on Internet about his male which he says is wrong and someone purposely wrongly put it in there. I really am interested in his dogs but am I wrong for being upset about this? You would not buy a house with out the documents? He knows he had a very unique looking dogs and I believe he really is a good breeder but why would you not just be upfront and honest with the documents and history of the dogs background etc..with someone who is purchasing a dog unless you have something to hide? I'm sad about this as I thought I had finally found my desired puppy but I guess not. Just wanted to share so others make sure they are protected.



I'm sorry you had to go through this. Luckily you found this out now before you sent him money. The simple answer to your question is that a good breeder WOULD just be upfront and honest. In fact, they'd be thrilled that you asked. They would provide you with the registered names and pedigrees of the parents, and guide you to offa.org and the CERF website to verify the clearances (and/or send you copies of the actual certificates). Remember, your puppy is still out there, you just haven't found him or her yet. Maybe start a new thread in the Finding a Breeder section so that members here may point you to breeders and resources in your area. Best of luck!

Julie and Jersey


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## AmbikaGR

MAJacksonK9OTR said:


> I have info for all. I had spoke with this breeder and he tells me no info anywhere on his dogs becausevhe has had issues with people stealing his info. having problems w/ other breeders stealing his pictures and content and afraid that They will find his source in Hungary. He fears that people are importing these dogs and breeding with out the concern or welfare of the dogs. That is fine but because I requested the info on all certs with the contract he was sending before I send him a cert check. He responds to me that I'm distrustful and should find another breeder. ?????there is only a bit of info on Internet about his male which he says is wrong and someone purposely wrongly put it in there. I really am interested in his dogs but am I wrong for being upset about this? You would not buy a house with out the documents? He knows he had a very unique looking dogs and I believe he really is a good breeder but why would you not just be upfront and honest with the documents and history of the dogs background etc..with someone who is purchasing a dog unless you have something to hide? I'm sad about this as I thought I had finally found my desired puppy but I guess not. Just wanted to share so others make sure they are protected.


While I understand your pain about thinking you had found the perfect breeder to provide you with the perfect pup and then it not be so. It happens and not just to "new" folks. I recently was in the process of getting a pup from a breeder. We had many communications, I filled out the puppy questionnaire, I had picked out the name and when the pups turned 5 weeks out I was sent the contract. It was not what I was agreeable too and although I really wanted the pup from this litter, I said no thanks. I was heartbroken about it. Thank goodness it turned out this way as I learned about another litter that a friend was having and I knew and loved both the sire and the dam. And yesterday I brought Brooke home.
Long winded way of telling you I believe things always happen for a reason, even if they are not apparent at that moment they occur.
Your pup will be out there for you, trust me. You just can't rush it!!


----------



## jleisen

*Starr Goldens*

Hi there,

We have a wonderfully beautiful White (and I mean White!) Golden Retriever from Starr Goldens in Ohio. He is a big boy named Oliver and is 2 1/2 years old.

He has an incredible "blocky" head and 63 pounds. My friend in Boston loved Oliver so much that she bought a dog from Starr Goldens as well!! (Same father but different mother)

The owner of the kennel is a bit quirky over the phone but I actually flew out to his kennel to pick Oliver and I will say that he truly is committed to his dogs 

Trust me, I didn't really like him over the phone. But once I met him and his dogs, I was a believer. Really. He has the most beautiful white goldens you have ever seen!


----------



## Jersey's Mom

jleisen said:


> Hi there,
> 
> We have a wonderfully beautiful White (and I mean White!) Golden Retriever from Starr Goldens in Ohio. He is a big boy named Oliver and is 2 1/2 years old.
> 
> He has an incredible "blocky" head and 63 pounds. My friend in Boston loved Oliver so much that she bought a dog from Starr Goldens as well!! (Same father but different mother)
> 
> The owner of the kennel is a bit quirky over the phone but I actually flew out to his kennel to pick Oliver and I will say that he truly is committed to his dogs
> 
> Trust me, I didn't really like him over the phone. But once I met him and his dogs, I was a believer. Really. He has the most beautiful white goldens you have ever seen!


I am confused by this claim of "white" (and you mean "white"!) golden retrievers. How exactly did they come to be white? And if they are truly white, can we even call them *golden* retrievers anymore? Certainly these aren't dogs of English type, as the UK's standard states:



> *Colour.* Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.


So how exactly did he come to have these white dogs? Interesting that he claims he is getting them from the top breeders of English goldens (in the world!! Apparently not from England?) including "show judges." Have to wonder why so many top breeders and show judges are breeding dogs they can never show.... seems a bit counter intuitive. 

Color aside, you were obviously impressed by this breeder. So I would gather that he provided you with proper clearances (from OFA and CERF) on your pup's parents, grandparents, and so on back through the line, correct? And that he provided the pedigree and registered name information for you to check those clearances on the appropriate database websites? I would also, then, assume that he is involved in his local breed club, participates in competitive events, properly handles and socializes the litters before they are sent home at 8 weeks, and has his liters evaluated by impartial third party experts to match the appropriate temperaments with the appropriate families? (Usually this evaluation also helps determine conformation picks... but I don't know of anywhere a white golden retriever would meet the standard, so I would suppose he uses that part of the evaluation to gauge the success toward his goals for the litter). As an expert in his own lines, he undoubtedly pointed out to you the strengths and weaknesses of both sire and dam and explained what he had hoped to achieve with this litter, right? And if all those assumptions are, in fact, correct... I have to wonder why he feels it necessary to hide all that information from those who may be interested in pursuing his litters? 

Please, do share with us exactly what made this experience so wonderful for you... besides the fact that your golden is sporting a curiously white coat -- that part we got loud and clear.

Welcome to the forum! :wavey:

Julie and Jersey


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## ragtym

jleisen said:


> Hi there,
> We have a wonderfully beautiful White (and I mean White!) Golden Retriever...


No, you have a very light GOLDEN Retriever. Try putting your dog next to a piece of white paper. You will see that he has a yellowish tinge to him - he's NOT white and never will be. 

If your puppies' sire is Storm - Goldbrior Victory Dash (http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=209683) - Storm was bred on Prelims only. Look at his record change history on k9data - http://k9data.com/changehistory.asp?ID=209683 and look at how many times his owner changed or removed information from his record. This included removing his registered name not once but several times. In fact, he did this so often that the administrators locked Storm's record to keep him from doing it again.

There are 3 other dogs listed as being owned by J Stevenson - ALL of them are locked as well. 

FACT - Storm's first litter was born when he was 15 months old.
FACT - Remi (Rising Starr of the Morning Valley) had her first litter at 19 months, meaning she was bred at 17 months.
FACT - Pebbles (Pebbles of the Morning Valley) http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=383625 first litter was registered with the AKC when she was 19 months old.

None of the dogs that have been identified as belonging to him have FINAL clearances. 

Mr. Stevenson claims that "lies" were being spread about his dogs - that's why he doesn't list their information. The requirement for listing clearances in k9data is that they be verifiable. Prelims are NOT verifiable unless the owner allows the results to be published. That's why his prelim information was removed, not because people were out to make him and his dogs look bad.


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## nixietink

I just don't understand why people try to defend "breeders" when the information (or lack thereof) is easily verifiable.


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## sterregold

This "breeder" was discussed in another of the "English Creme" threads. Storm was locked because the people correcting the info he was putting in about the underage dog's clearances were the dog's breeders in Australia! They have now realized what a charmer (not!) this guy is and that he slimed his way into looking reputable to obtain the dog much to their regret. Apparently he can talk-th- talk pretty well with buyers too.


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## Shalva

nixietink said:


> I just don't understand why people try to defend "breeders" when the information (or lack thereof) is easily verifiable.


Its very simple.... first they feel that a breeders irresponsibility is a reflection on the merits of their pup who they love to bits.... second the breeder is probably very nice... just because someone is an irresponsible breeder doesn't mean that they are not a nice person in other areas so they have a relationship with their breeder regardless of how irresponsible they may be or have been. and finally Nobody likes to think that they were taken advantage, lied to, manipulated or fooled... and they love their dog... 

They don't understand that our criticism of their breeder is not a criticism of their much loved dog. 

s


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## alewynk

I also have a Starr Goldens puppy, now 18 months old. She is an absolutely gorgeous female who is very light cream in color, her ears are slightly darker than the rest of her. (pics are posted) She is very smart and athletic, and extremely energetic, as well as sweet. She's come a long way (she was a hard puppy, needed tons of exercise to get her to settle down) and is great to be around now.
I have looked at the web sites of the breeders of her parents (Storm and Jenna) and grandparents, (Goldbrior in Australia, Erinderry in Ireland and Retriever of Golden Duck in Serbia) and , and they appear very reputable.


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## AmbikaGR

alewynk said:


> I also have a Starr Goldens puppy, now 18 months old. She is an absolutely gorgeous female who is very light cream in color, her ears are slightly darker than the rest of her. (pics are posted) She is very smart and athletic, and extremely energetic, as well as sweet. She's come a long way (she was a hard puppy, needed tons of exercise to get her to settle down) and is great to be around now.


I am very happy for you that so far you are pleased with the dog you got from these folks. I hope it remains that way for many years to come.



alewynk said:


> I have looked at the web sites of the breeders of her parents (Storm and Jenna) and grandparents, (Goldbrior in Australia, Erinderry in Ireland and Retriever of Golden Duck in Serbia) and , and they appear very reputable.


By what standards are you making this assessment?


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## Jo Ellen

Shalva said:


> Its very simple.... first they feel that a breeders irresponsibility is a reflection on the merits of their pup who they love to bits.... second the breeder is probably very nice... just because someone is an irresponsible breeder doesn't mean that they are not a nice person in other areas so they have a relationship with their breeder regardless of how irresponsible they may be or have been. and finally Nobody likes to think that they were taken advantage, lied to, manipulated or fooled... and they love their dog...
> 
> They don't understand that our criticism of their breeder is not a criticism of their much loved dog.


Thank you so much for this post.


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## Pointgold

MAJacksonK9OTR said:


> I have info for all. I had spoke with this breeder and he tells me no info anywhere on his dogs becausevhe has had issues with people stealing his info. having problems w/ other breeders stealing his pictures and content and afraid that They will find his source in Hungary. He fears that people are importing these dogs and breeding with out the concern or welfare of the dogs. That is fine but because I requested the info on all certs with the contract he was sending before I send him a cert check. He responds to me that I'm distrustful and should find another breeder. ?????there is only a bit of info on Internet about his male which he says is wrong and someone purposely wrongly put it in there. I really am interested in his dogs but am I wrong for being upset about this? You would not buy a house with out the documents? He knows he had a very unique looking dogs and I believe he really is a good breeder but why would you not just be upfront and honest with the documents and history of the dogs background etc..with someone who is purchasing a dog unless you have something to hide? I'm sad about this as I thought I had finally found my desired puppy but I guess not. Just wanted to share so others make sure they are protected.


 
I must say that this a "creative" explanation for why a "breeder" doesn't have health information immediately available. :doh: No one can "steal" his information. Permanent ID, such as microchip or tattoo is required by the OFA. There are so many brokers sending foreign dogs (particularly Eastern European) to the US that it is unlikely that anyone needs his "source". To twist his dishonesty into you being wrongly distrustful to make you feel guilty, or second guess yourself, is distasteful at best. Keep looking, you can do so much better.


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## Pointgold

alewynk said:


> I also have a Starr Goldens puppy, now 18 months old. She is an absolutely gorgeous female who is very light cream in color, her ears are slightly darker than the rest of her. (pics are posted) She is very smart and athletic, and extremely energetic, as well as sweet. She's come a long way (she was a hard puppy, needed tons of exercise to get her to settle down) and is great to be around now.
> I have looked at the web sites of the breeders of her parents (Storm and Jenna) and grandparents, (Goldbrior in Australia, Erinderry in Ireland and Retriever of Golden Duck in Serbia) and , and they appear very reputable.


 
Interesting to note here that nearly all of the manufacturers who produce these rare, white English Goldens claim that they are so much more mellow and laid back than the American dogs...it would seem that the above post contradicts this.:scratchch


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## Shilho

slkuta said:


> We have a deposit on a puppy from Starr Goldens in Ohio. Has anyone purchased a puppy from them?


Yes. Lovely male puppy


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## Bradh2238

I have two from Starr. I couldn't be more happy. One is the most mellow dog in the world. The other has a ton of puppy energy. Personally, I don't think the breeders have a whole lot of control over personality. My only advice is pick your puppy up in the morning, before they have a chance to get tired out from playing all day.


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## alewynk

*Starr Goldens*

We continue to enjoy our Starr girl, Lacey. At almost 22 months remains a bundle of energy, but sweet and beautiful. We constantly get comments on how pretty she is. The place we board/Day Care when necessary which is also a training facility, recently used her for a "guinea pig" in a seminar for trainers because they felt she was so reliable around strange dogs and people. I know John kind of wierd, but believe he produces a great product!


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## jleisen

You are going to LOVE your new puppy from Starr Goldens!! As I had said before, the owner of the kennel may be quirky, but the dogs are beautiful and healthy and have a sweet disposition. I can't tell you how many compliments I get on my dog Oliver! He has the most beautiful blocky head and smaller, squared nose.


Enjoy!


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## jal239

Good luck. I am in the same position as you (getting ready to pullthe trigger on getting a little fluff ball). This site has been a welth of info in helping in the process. Good luck in your search!!!


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## Shilho

*Starr puppies*

Wow! Everything you all said is true! The man is impossible but the puppy(Storm and Jenna) I got is beautiful,smart, mellow and friendly so far.He even emailed to say the 4 males were great temperments but the 1 female was "a pain". I can't believe he said that!
But my real anger comes
when I questioned John about him not having any dropped testicles he said it was from flying, stress they would drop again in a couple of days. He gave me the name of his vet and I called him and he said they were there on all 4 males. Well it has been 3 weeks and still no sign of them. He has been examined by 4 vets and no one can find them in the groin or abdomen. The vets said they don't go up to the abdomen again but could go to the groin if they were really there to start. I should have been told he did not have them since I paid $2300 for a "perfect well-bred dog"(quoting John)
His neutring is going to be much more involved and many more $$'s because of it.
I also think the puppy never saw the inside of a house. I think he was raised in a barn. He liked the outdoors to much when I got him. Not afraid of anything he saw. Also he had a bacterial infection and had to go on antibiotics for 2 weeks and he started urinating all the time because of it. I also found out he is very allergic to sulfa drugs.
The paper work that flew in with him said "nothing" about his care so far. He was not even wormed once! I had to call to find his feeding schedule.

I do not think I would buy another puppy from him. He is in it for the dollars only! He could care less about the puppies.

I was in touch with the golden breeder in Hungray, Golden Duck and she was more than helpful. She would even sell me a puppy for breeding or show. Over there you can only breed totally clear dogs(excellent ratings).

All in all he is ours to love and care for.

Forgive me if the format is not right for the forum I am new here.


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## Shilho

Pointgold said:


> Interesting to note here that nearly all of the manufacturers who produce these rare, white English Goldens claim that they are so much more mellow and laid back than the American dogs...it would seem that the above post contradicts this.:scratchch


He has a new male from Ireland "Wallace" which he will be breding soon as he matures. He quoted the female from my litter as a "pain"!


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## nuggetld31

*Starr Goldens*

We have an 18 month old "puppy" from Starr. He is awesome, loving, energetic***, sometimes mischievous (that’s golden for you when they are not getting the attention they want). We will say that John is difficult to deal with. We had the same issue with Major’s testicles. We were assured they would drop. Well we waited until 15 months and still they had not distended. When we went to pick him up the vet told us that, “the testicles where in the abdomen and it was a good thing we got him fixed, because non-distended testicles can lead to cancer.” It was an expensive vet trip to say the least. 

Also, to the post about the certification. He would not give us any papers until we purchased the dog. He got iffy with us when we asked for the too. Basically, saying the same thing, that if “we can’t trust him then maybe we should buy somewhere else.” It really made us second guess the decision to buy.

In the end, we couldn’t be happier with our dog. The breeder really does not have social skills, which kills me. We went to pick up Major. All his dogs are kept in covered kennels. The puppies are kept in his over sized, attached garage. So they are kept in side. He lives in beautiful Amish country in Ohio. It was an enjoyable trip. He’s really nice in person and so were his kids. 

If anyone has any questions feel free to email us. We’ll be glad to help anyone. 

By the way, we can’t go anywhere, without everyone stopping us in awww and asking what kind of dog to you have? Or stating, he is absolutely beautiful. It does feel good to be told that over and over.


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## Shilho

*Starr*

Did you ever contact him about the testicles not being down? 
Our puppy is doing fine and haave been in touch with one other litter mate. He would not give me the other 3 saying they were professional people and would not give me their number. Anyway the other litter mate and I have been comparing notes and we both have had a lot of vet bills so far from worms to parasites to urininary problems to dermetitis to being very allergic to sulfa drugs. Which is something you should look out for. It started with itching of the bottom of the pads. Again (so much for my well bred dog).
How much does your Major weigh? He told me his father was 70lbs and told the other person 75lbs.
When you did the neurtering did you use your regular vet or a specialist? How much was "expensive"? The other litter mate has his testicles down. I guess he did not care about it being a defective gene and should not bred the dog because it was one more way to protect his line and his dollars coming in.
The other litter mate was the largest in the litter mine 3rd and they both weigh the same now. He is being raised on the West Coast(Washington State) and me on the East Coast (Pennsylvannia)
Stay in touch. Is there someway we can email privately?


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## Shilho

*Starr puppies*



slkuta said:


> Thank you for the responses. I was hoping someone may have bought from them. I have had several conversations with the owner, and we are driving out to pick up the puppy.


 Did you get your puppy?


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## Sally's Mom

If you did not purchase your dog as a show or breeding dog, being cyrptorchid is not by itself an indication of a bad breeder. I recently attended a repro CE where the specialist reiterated what I always tell clients that if they are not down by 4 months, it is highly unlikely they are coming/staying down. I also read somewhere in some vet journal that it is thought to come thru the dam's genetics(hopefully no one is breeding their males with one testicle). Where I work a "straight up" dog castration is $215(doesn't include meds or bloodwork). A cryptorchid castration unilateral or bilateral is $355 without bloodwork, etc. As a veterinarian, I don't think cryptorchidsm is only a big deal if you don't neuter.


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## Sally's Mom

Whoops meant to say cryptorchidsm is a big deal if you don't neuter.


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## sterregold

The cryptorchidism may not be a big deal in regards to the individual puppy who is going to be a neutered pet. But it is a big deal that this "breeder" is misleading his puppy buyers and sending pups who he claims one thing about but who turn out to be something else when they arrive. And for $2300? Good lord! I would never refer anyone interested in an English style dog to this person--there are so many better options out there.


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## Pointgold

Dogs producing cryptorchids should be removed from any breeding program. And, as a breeder, I would offer partial payment for the surgery. It IS a "big deal" and I'm sorry, but this guy is no one that I would _ever _refer a puppy buyer to.


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## Sally's Mom

We can agree to disagree re:cryptorchidsm. I don't see it as that black and white. My last horse was cryptorchid... his dad still stood at stud and his mom produced 5 more foals after him. Seattle Slew produced cryptorchids as well and he was never removed from stud. I do not advocate breeding cryptorchids, but we repair them as we do umbilical hernias when we neuter them. So who gets the blame(mom/dad) if one or the other of the dog's testicles are undescended?

However,I am not advocating for the breeder in question. Every breeder should know what their puppies have or don't have when they leave the property. $2300 is highway robbery for those dogs....


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## Pointgold

Here, for those who are unsure of what is being discussed:
Shores Animal Clinic


I firmly believe that cryptorchids and dogs producing them, should not be bred. It is inherited, and the risk of cancer in these dogs increased. Why reproduce that?

Winning? Money? Not enough of a reason for me. Seattle Slew or otherwise.


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## Sally's Mom

Since the general consensus is that cryptorchidsm is a sex limited autosomal recessive trait, would you remove all dogs that have produced one cryptorchid from the program(since to be cryptorchid you would need one allele from each parent... it takes 2 to tango)?


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## Sally's Mom

They need to be neutered, then they don't get cancer.


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## Pointgold

I am well aware of the need to neuter cryptorchids. 
My goal is to not produce them. (And the health issues related to them).

Yes, I would remove the dogs.


Here are a couple more excellent articles:

www.reproductiverevolutions.com/.../*Cryptorchid*ism_in_*dogs*_-_how_why_ and_what_to_do_about_it.doc

cryptorchidism


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## Shalva

So at what point does a breed have bigger fish to fry so to speak.. I can see both sides of this discussion... my question is with all the other raging health problems in goldens.... ie. cancer.... HD.... etc etc.... at what point do you leave a dog in with a recessive gene knowing that it could show up or neuter knowing that you are further restricting a limited genetic pool. 

Now keep in mind I come from Flat Coats... a breed with a very limited gene pool due to near extinction at WWII and this is a question that we always are asking ourselves.... and I am not sure there is a right or wrong answer... but with the average flat coat living to be 7 due to cancer (and if you think goldens have a cancer problem you ain't seen nothin yet) we are constantly discussing at what point do we remove a dog from the gene pool.... a dog with an issue perhaps.... but maybe a recessive one but with other traits that are good and one who could add even just one dogs worth of diversity.... 

I dont know if this makes sense as I am battling a migraine at the moment but you can probably get the idea 
s


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## Sally's Mom

Actually, I saw a statistic that approximately 1/2 of the rottie population has some degree of elbow dysplasia. The discussion in that breed being if you start dismissing all Grade I's as breeding prospects, then you will accidentally select for something else(like SAS). I know some well known dobie breeders who seem to have the hips under control, but instead have now selected for cardiomyopathy....

As far as goldens, I know several OS that have produced cryptorchids and their offspring are out there being bred....


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## Shalva

and that to my mind is certainly a problem.... if we remove ALL dogs that have an issue then what is left and what will we start seeing... 

I don't claim to have an answer, it is just a question that needs to be considered....


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## AzCat

*Starr Goldens*

Hi

Did you end up getting your puppy from Starr Goldens? I'm currently looking for a 2nd Golden Retriever and have seen both positive and negative comments on breeder.


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## AzCat

*Starr Goldens*

Hi 
Did you end up getting a puppy from Starr Goldens? I'm currently looking at getting a 2nd Golden Retriever and have seen both positive and negative comments on the breeder.


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## Shilho

*Starr Goldens in the line of fire again*

Yes I did get a puppy. Very nice upon arrival at airport. But no paper work on him, just a small bag of food taped to the top. Slept the night and then went to vet. Surprise! He was not wormed, no shots and he had Isoporo. He then was allergic to sulfa drugs as was his litter mate. Then he had urinary tract infection. The worst is he does not have testicles and I was never told by the breeder. 
The puppy is wonderful in personality, out going, confident, fast learner, bright, and at 3 months he is trained. No accidents, he barks everytime to go out. This is a first for me. He goes to puppy kindergarten and he is the only one that doesn't get time out. Never growls or barks at the other puppies. Just gets up and shakes it off.
If we were to get another puppy from him I would have my own contract written for him, since he did not sell me a "best bred puppy in the country" so says he. Right now it is a hard choice to make.


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## Pointgold

Shilho said:


> Yes I did get a puppy. Very nice upon arrival at airport. But no paper work on him, just a small bag of food taped to the top. Slept the night and then went to vet. Surprise! He was not wormed, no shots and he had Isoporo. He then was allergic to sulfa drugs as was his litter mate. Then he had urinary tract infection. The worst is he does not have testicles and I was never told by the breeder.
> The puppy is wonderful in personality, out going, confident, fast learner, bright, and at 3 months he is trained. No accidents, he barks everytime to go out. This is a first for me. He goes to puppy kindergarten and he is the only one that doesn't get time out. Never growls or barks at the other puppies. Just gets up and shakes it off.
> If we were to get another puppy from him I would have my own contract written for him, since he did not sell me a "best bred puppy in the country" so says he. Right now it is a hard choice to make.


_Neither _testicle is descended?? Whew. :no:


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## roni623flo

I have recently acquired a puppy from Starr Goldens, and I must say that I am 100% satisfied with my new puppy. I have visited a few other kennels, and Starr's kennel was one of the cleanest kennels I have ever seen. The dogs were very well kept. As for our new little girl. She is truly amazing. I took her to our local vet, and the vet was in awh over her. After being checked my vet was very pleased as the dog was in perfect health and was up on all of her shots, and told me that I wouldn’t have even needed to bring her in for a vet check, as the breeder had done a wonderful job with her. Starr also provided us with a health certificate from their vet. I would highly recommend Starr Goldens to anyone looking to add a great new addition to their family


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## alewynk

*Happy to hear it!*

I'm so happy to hear your positive comments after so many negatives ha e been brought out. We love our Starr girl, though she's pretty rambunctious at 2, she settles down well as long as she gets her exercise. She's almost 2 and definitely still a puppy! Very smart and a beauty! Please post pics of your puppy!


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## Enzos_Mom

roni623flo said:


> After being checked my vet was very pleased as the dog was in perfect health and was up on all of her shots, and told me that I wouldn’t have even needed to bring her in for a vet check, as the breeder had done a wonderful job with her.


Maybe it's just me, but it seems really weird that a vet would say that a puppy that you just brought into your family doesn't have to be checked...

Yes, the breeder said they did shots and worming and all that good stuff, but whenever you're dealing with someone you don't know and the health of a living creature that you're responsible for is at stake, I would take their word with a grain of salt.


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## Kally76

Enzos_Mom said:


> Maybe it's just me, but it seems really weird that a vet would say that a puppy that you just brought into your family doesn't have to be checked....


I had that exact same thought when I read that comment.


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## roni623flo

I saw the shots and wormer that Starr provided to his puppies. Also I saw the OFA clearances and pedigrees of the mother and father. He showed me everything that I asked to see. They are the most beautiful dogs I have ever laid eyes on. Their family's home was beautiful and the puppies were spotless. You can tell just by looking at Starr's puppies in person that they are well cared for and well socialized. We love our puppy.


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## Ninde'Gold

This healthy looking puppy had Giardia and a Heart Murmur...

Just sayin'... can't judge a book by its cover.


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## Sally's Mom

Seriously... I seen?


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## roni623flo

GoldenLover84 said:


> This healthy looking puppy had Giardia and a Heart Murmur...
> 
> Just sayin'... can't judge a book by its cover.


My puppy looks nothing like this puppy.


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## HiTideGoldens

ETA: nevermind....


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## kateann1201

Edited: I'll be nice now :bowl:


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## roni623flo

Some people on this site have NO life!


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## AmbikaGR

roni623flo said:


> Some people on this site have NO life!



Sorry but actually it is because of breeders like the one discussed here that folks, some actually busy with life, take the time to warn unknowing and vulnerable families of what they should look for and look out for. If only you could tell by "looking" at the pups, it would save some of them a lot of time and frustration. :doh:


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## Ninde'Gold

I didn't say your puppy looks like mine. I was simply showing you a picture of a healthy-looking Golden Retriever puppy that you wouldn't know had issues by looking at it.

:doh:


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## roni623flo

AmbikaGR said:


> Sorry but actually it is because of breeders like the one discussed here that folks, some actually busy with life, take the time to warn unknowing and vulnerable families of what they should look for and look out for. If only you could tell by "looking" at the pups, it would save some of them a lot of time and frustration. :doh:


So you are implying that Starr is a bad breeder? Someone who you have never met. I say this is wrong. If you have no knowledge of the kennel then what gives you the right to post anything negative about them?
As I said I've met the people, and saw the parents, clearances, and the pedigrees. I say you'd have to look a long time to find dogs as nice as his. It seems most people on here are breeders and are very jealous of his beautiful dogs.


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## AmbikaGR

AmbikaGR said:


> Sorry but actually it is because of breeders like the one discussed here that folks, some actually busy with life, take the time to warn unknowing and vulnerable families of what they should look for and look out for. If only you could tell by "looking" at the pups, it would save some of them a lot of time and frustration. :doh:





roni623flo said:


> Some people on this site have NO life!





roni623flo said:


> So you are implying that Starr is a bad breeder? Someone who you have never met. I say this is wrong. If you have no knowledge of the kennel then what gives you the right to post anything negative about them?
> As I said I've met the people, and saw the parents, clearances, and the pedigrees. I say you'd have to look a long time to find dogs as nice as his. It seems most people on here are breeders and are very jealous of his beautiful dogs.



Actually I believe if you go through all 24 pages of this thread you will find I have never said or implied that. However the wording of the post by myself quoted above maybe could have been worded better. What I was "implying" was referring to your post stating "Some people on this site have NO life!" I took it to mean that in your opinion those who took the time to look at the breeder's website and then suggested what should be asked of the breeder must have no life. 
What gives people the "right" to post about them is two fold. First, they put themselves out there by establishing a website to tell folks about their kennel and dogs. Second, this is a forum dedicated to Golden Retrievers.
If you were able to get a pup from this breeder and verify the pedigrees and clearances of the parents and prior generations that is a good thing. And it is worth sharing here just are the comments made by others who have had dealings with this breeder who were not as positive as yours. 
As for your comment " most people on here are breeders and are very jealous of his beautiful dogs." BUSTED!! you are so correct. Being a breeder located in New Jersey and having bred two litters in my twenty years in Goldens makes me extremely jealous of breeders such as this.


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## County JR

Pointgold said:


> _Neither _testicle is descended?? Whew. :no:


That's not unusual at all in a 3 month old dog. I'm sure they'll show up when it's time


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## gfidk

nuggetld31 said:


> If you could, give me additional information about Starr Golden's in Ohio, we would be greatly appreciate it. We are planning on sending a deposit this week to reserve a spot from Remi & Storm. They are beautiful dogs. Did he send you their clearance on hip, heart, & eyes or show you when you went to pick up Bentley? I guess when you are spending a lot of money on a dog, you want to make sure everything goes smoothly!!! Any help you can other would be wonderful. Glad you got so lucky with your new addition.


My wife and I just sent in a deposit to Starr for a female from same parents (Storm/Remi). I'd love to be able to have dialog with you on a dog with a "history" (based on your CY09 purchase) from this breeder. The comments can be a bit discouraging......


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## DNL2448

Never mind. Deleted post. Old thread.


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