# English Cream vs. American Golden?



## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

I know a woman who breeds English cream golden retrievers. She charges quite a bit for them. She gets her dogs from Europe. They have actually been flown here from other countries. This is why she calls them the English Cream. She claims that they are much better than the American Golden on every level. She also claims that some breeders market their lighter goldens as English Creams but they aren't unless the parents came from Europe. My question is that if her dogs have been flown in from Europe, does that make them true English Cream? If so, how do you go about checking out the lineage of her dogs. The genetic testing is done differently in Europe. It is very hard to read her k-9 data records and you can forget about OFA. I think that all of her dogs are AKC registered so she is able to sell AKC registered puppies. I have read some of the posts regarding English Creams and I have read the article in GRCA about rare white goldens. Everything that I have read suggests that a golden, is a golden, is a golden but there are a lot of websites out there that are making the claim that an English Cream golden is somehow better than an American Golden. I can purchase a show dog from a top kennel for the price that she charges for her pet puppies. Does anyone out there believe that the English cream is a higher quality dog and worth paying the extra price for? Also, I have heard that the English cream goldens don't do as well in the show ring because of their color. I guess that I have 4 questions
1. Is there such a thing as a true English Cream?
2. If so, do they have to be imported from Europe?
3. How do you go about checking the lineage of these dogs?
4. Are they somehow better than the American lines?

I have added the links to her website and the website of the article in GRCA
http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_doodle-white.html
http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

1. Is there such a thing as a true English Cream? no it's just a marketing ploy to charge more
2. If so, do they have to be imported from Europe? how are they English when they usually come from at least 2nd generation English dogs, the Europeans have worked out it's a good way to make a quick buck 
3. How do you go about checking the lineage of these dogs? http://www.standfastdata.co.uk/ for UK dogs not sure about European
4. Are they somehow better than the American lines? Not at all goldens bread properly should all have a loyal loving nature

just walk away from anyone advertising their dogs as rare English Creams


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

can i also point out that the rights to the picture on the bottom of this page belong solely to Lynn Kipps http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/thatsanenglishgolden.htm


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Thanks so much for the info. I found that site very informative. I didn't realize that there was a site in the UK pretty much the same as the OFA website here. I still don't understand the way the hips are tested over there and what the scores mean. Any info on that will be appreciated.


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

[url]http://www.bva.co.uk/public/chs/bms2006.pdf[/URL]

the above link is for the BVA British vetenery association.

these are the results for 2008
The british mean score for golden retrievers is 18, 31.233 golden retrievers have been tested with a possible score of 0-106, each hip is rated from 0-53 each movement of the joint is rated 0-6

hip joint score range right left
Norberg angle 0-6 0 0
Subluxation 0-6 1 1
Cranial acetabular edge 0-6 2 2
Dorsal acetabular edge 0-6 0 0
Cranial effective acetabular rim 0-6 0 0
acetabular fossa 0-6 0 0
Caudal acetabular edge 0-5 0 0
Femoral head/neck exostosis 0-6 0 0
Femoral head recontouring 0-6 0 0

total max poss per column is 53, gracie's score was 3 3 hip score =6

any dog with a total score of 18 or above should not be bred from


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

Eileen verifies all information before it is added to the site so less chance of people giving inaccurate information


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Welcome to GRF!! :wavey:



goldhaven said:


> 1. Is there such a thing as a true English Cream?


 
NO!!!




goldhaven said:


> 2. If so, do they have to be imported from Europe?


Seeing as there is no such thing, this question is moot. 



goldhaven said:


> 3. How do you go about checking the lineage of these dogs?


As there are plenty on unscrupulous breeders using this marketing ploy, you should be able to check pedigrees and clearances by requesting to visually see them.




goldhaven said:


> 4. Are they somehow better than the American lines?


 
Absolutely not!


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

[/QUOTE]

4. Are they somehow better than the American lines?




Absolutely not![/QUOTE]

as I'm owned by four, i feel I should be offended, there again I live with them and know what total pains in the bottom they can be


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## rik6230 (Jan 8, 2008)

I never heard about "English Cream". I read this article. I don't know if the information is correct but the ( photo's are beautiful. 

http://www.starcrowned.com/egnatest/


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

[/QUOTE]

as I'm owned by four, i feel I should be offended, there again I live with them and know what total pains in the bottom they can be [/QUOTE]

So no offense was meant. My reference to what the OP was referring to "English Cream". Please accept my apology if I offended you.
As for Goldens from English lines there are many examples of outstanding dogs, on both side of the pond. And I am sure your four would fit into this group.


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

as I'm owned by four, i feel I should be offended, there again I live with them and know what total pains in the bottom they can be [/QUOTE]

So no offense was meant. My reference to what the OP was referring to "English Cream". Please accept my apology if I offended you.
As for Goldens from English lines there are many examples of outstanding dogs, on both side of the pond. And I am sure your four would fit into this group.[/QUOTE]

lol, no offence taken, i was joking. I'm the first to admit I really don't get the whole English cream debate, especially considering more and more breeders here are going back to the darker dogs. As far as I know no breeder in the the UK would ask more money for a darker (rare haha) golden


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

I was looking at that website... the breeder... and I mean... thinking their goldens are better than other goldens? What? Seriously? 

http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/ourdogs.htm

The "our dogs" section... I'm probably going to get railed for this, but they don't look THAT special. LOL. They look like normal goldens. I bet they pee and poop like normal goldens too. I bet if they eat too much grass they leave little green presents around the house, like normal goldens. Their deposit alone is $500... and then it said the payments are broken down into 4 payments... Sounds like a ploy to get more money. 

Sorry... stuff like that bothers me. They're adorable dogs, but don't try to make more money by saying they're "rare"...

Also. On her FAQs... one of her "questions" was "Did you vote for Obama?" 

What does that have to do with puppies? LOL. 

Oh well. I'm gonna go give my sub-par goldens some big hugs and kisses now.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

rik said:


> I never heard about "English Cream". I read this article. I don't know if the information is correct but the ( photo's are beautiful.
> 
> http://www.starcrowned.com/egnatest/


Also, that picture with the goldens and their colors... OMG. I LOVE IT!!


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Well, obviously American is better than English any day of the week!!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I will say when I was stationed in Germany, we had influx of puppy mill dogs that were being transported in from Poland to be sold...so Europe has the same problem the US does with unscrupulous breeders who I am just sure are willing to sell to some sucker in the US.


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## sabby (Apr 23, 2009)

> Well, obviously American is better than English any day of the week!!


But of course they are


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

sabby said:


> But of course they are


With Canadians a solid second!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Loved the photo too! I am partial to the red end of the spectrum though...probably because my Heart Dog was a red guy. They always appear to have a glow about them. Nothing's more spectacular than a red Golden standing in the sunlight...it's breathtaking!


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Mssjnnfer said:


> I was looking at that website... the breeder... and I mean... thinking their goldens are better than other goldens? What? Seriously?
> 
> http://www.luckyladyfarms.com/ourdogs.htm
> 
> ...


 
Laughs at the Obama question and answer. Wonder if she's a Sarah Palin relative? You know what I wonder. You know how Lewinsky got to mean something r rated because of her association? I do just wonder why we haven't applied Palin to another meaning as well. Like, Man, that was Palin! Or Don't you have 2 Palins to rub together? Completely off topic, I know, but I do wonder.


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## sabby (Apr 23, 2009)

> With Canadians a solid second


But of course *we *are


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

sabby said:


> But of course *we *are


 
I like you sabby!! You are as humble as myself!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Anybody who says that English dogs are smarter, calmer, better, healthier, or longer-lived is full of it.

There are minor differences in type between the UK standard and the AKC standard, but English/European Goldens aren't dramatically different from American. There's nothing wrong with preferring the English standard and breeding imported dogs, but pushing them as "Creams" or "Cremes" is plain old silly. The UK standard allows for lighter dogs (and dogs all the way to dark gold), but the only thing that makes most or all of a litter white/or very light Gold is breeding specifically for those colors. And if your main concern in breeding is color, that doesn't say a lot for the potential health and temperament of the dogs.

If you like light Goldens, find a good breeder, find a good litter, and see if one of the lighter dogs is suitable for you. Do not choose breeders based on the colors of their dogs; matching up dogs with the color of the offspring as a primary concern is a poor breeding practice, and anybody who's not only doing it but pushing it as a selling point is not doing the best he or she can for the dogs. "Cream" has become synonymous with "run the other way" as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and they're not "rare." They're a fad right now, so they're _everywhere_. You can hardly move around the dog parks here and Connecticut for all the "white" Goldens and "designer" poodle-mixes.


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## sabby (Apr 23, 2009)

Posted by TippyK...


> If you like light Goldens, find a good breeder, find a good litter, and see if one of the lighter dogs is suitable for you.


Our neighbour has had their English Type GR for 6 yrs now. 
We loved the temperment and look of their "Cruise" so when
the time was right for our family we approached the breeder
and took the plunge.

For the last 4 months we are proud owners of E.T.G.R. who happens to be half brother with "Cruise"



> Anybody who says that English dogs are smarter, calmer, better, healthier, or longer-lived is full of it


Today at least I am only semi "full of it" but it's early 

Smarter??
Our "Cash" is very smart... smarter than other Gr's ??... maybe some but this has to do with his lineage not his colour. Certainly there are smarter out there.

Calmer??
I can not believe how mellow our guy is. Our son is a little disappointed about this fact but DW and I could not be happier as this was definatley the most important trait we wanted followed by looks. Calmer than all other types of GRs.. I can't answer that. But since having him I have noticed how he seems calmer than most other GRs and other dogs we know or run into. No doubt a product of his ancestry.

I have to admit in our *limited experience* those 2 traits seem to have *some* ring of truth to them. 


Healthier??...Longer lived??
What a silly claim to make as there are way too many variables.

Better?
Well of course...my dog is better than your dog  and
Sure as hell I hope everyone feels just as proud of their dog.

I understand and appreciate the sentiment people have here towards the rare cream and the designer breeds issue. 

I have been a member here for a short time and lurked longer until becoming a GR owner. Reading countless posts I have notice an underlying bias against ETGRs and a preference towards the darker variety. 
Perhaps this has to do somewhat with personal preference and demographics.

One of the many things I love about GR's is how many different looks and colours they can be.
To some others I get a distinct feeling that this is a drawback particularitly when it comes to lighter coloured or _*ugh*_ cream GRs.

_not directed at anyone in particular just an observation._


/rant


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

sabby said:


> Posted by TippyK...
> 
> Our neighbour has had their English Type GR for 6 yrs now.
> We loved the temperment and look of their "Cruise" so when
> ...



Can I ask what breeder you went with? Was your dog more expensive than getting from a breeder of the American lines?


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

I really don't see the bias here. We have quite a few UK/European members here and I could GUARANTEE you that their goldens have many many admirers from this forum on this side of the pond. 
I'm thinking about "my" sweet little Tilly right now because she just came to mind for my next comment. If you dare to look at the posts from Tilly's mommy, you'll see that she can be just as rambunctious and mischievious, and "hyper" as the American type. 
I think what you see is not really bias per se, but just frustration at how many people believe the sellers (I rarely call them breeders) claims about "creams", and come here trying to sort it out or to accentuate those statements made by the sellers. It really has nothing to do with them being European or American. We do have slight differences in looks between the two, but as far as anything else? I'm not so sure.

This is coming from the mommy of a mixed parentage (english/american) golden.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

sabby said:


> Smarter??
> Our "Cash" is very smart... smarter than other Gr's ??... maybe some but this has to do with his lineage not his colour. Certainly there are smarter out there.
> 
> Calmer??
> I can not believe how mellow our guy is. Our son is a little disappointed about this fact but DW and I could not be happier as this was definatley the most important trait we wanted followed by looks. Calmer than all other types of GRs.. I can't answer that. But since having him I have noticed how he seems calmer than most other GRs and other dogs we know or run into. No doubt a product of his ancestry.


It's certainly a product of his ancestry, but it's not because he's English or because he's light colored. Your individual ETGR might be atypically calm, but that doesn't mean ETGRs as a whole are superior to or calmer than Goldens born and bred in the states.



sabby said:


> I have been a member here for a short time and lurked longer until becoming a GR owner. Reading countless posts I have notice an underlying bias against ETGRs and a preference towards the darker variety.
> Perhaps this has to do somewhat with personal preference and demographics.


Color is a preference, and dogs on this forum are all over the spectrum. The bias here is against breeders who look for color as a main concern rather than health and temperament. "English" and "Cream" are huge marketing tactics, and it upsets many of us that people are sucked in by those selling points rather than health and temperament. Breeders charge big bucks for otherwise unremarkable dogs who might lack titles or even clearances, simply because the color is popular.

ETGRs, as you're well aware, aren't necessarily "Cream" at all. It's simply a color that's allowed in the English show ring but not in the American. The English standard allows for dogs just as dark as the American does.



sabby said:


> One of the many things I love about GR's is how many different looks and colours they can be.
> To some others I get a distinct feeling that this is a drawback particularitly when it comes to lighter coloured or _*ugh*_ cream GRs.


I think light colored Goldens are very pretty, but I think people who sell dogs by color or who make false claims about the characteristics of European lines don't have the breed's or the buyers' best interests at heart.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> ETGRs, as you're well aware, aren't necessarily "Cream" at all. It's simply a color that's allowed in the English show ring but not in the American. The English standard allows for dogs just as dark as the American does.


 
Actually this is not really true. The lighter shade Goldens are allowed in the American show rings. In fact in Canada they do quite well. In the US the overwhelming majority of judges do not favor the lighter dogs and thus they do not do well in the conformation ring. But they are allowed.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> ETGRs, as you're well aware, aren't necessarily "Cream" at all. It's simply a color that's allowed in the English show ring but not in the American. The English standard allows for dogs just as dark as the American does.
> 
> I think light colored Goldens are very pretty, but I think people who sell dogs by color or who make false claims about the characteristics of European lines don't have the breed's or the buyers' best interests at heart.


In *European*, as we are not all English  , show ring red or mahogany is not allowed as it is in American ring. 
I think it's a big loss for judges/breeders favoring or not favoring lighter color since many, really many cream colored dogs are true representative of the breed. And some of them are real legends.
My personal preference (even though I have very light show dog) are dogs with color of the honey. But in the ring always are the "flashy" ones that are light colored. If the dog is good, he's good no matter of the color.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Golden Leo said:


> If the dog is good, he's good no matter of the color.


 
Truer words have never been spoken!


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## Solas Goldens (Nov 10, 2007)

There was a good article in GRCA Magazine March-April 2009.It explains this subject. The article pointed out a Golden is a Golden, and the english dogs should really be referenced as " British Type" since they can come from any number of countries overseas.Each type has different virtues, due to the gene pool it was drawn from.Due to internet and the low cost of flying it had been possible for the virtues of each type to be combined to make the gene pool we can draw from bigger.The blending results can be quite beautiful.Until the public is educated in the facts, indiscriminate breeders will be able to take advantage,
Hope this helps,if anyone is interested and would like to see the article I can scan it and email it to you. Send me a PM.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

All I can say is

"GOLDENS FOREVER"

I love them, wherever they come from, whatever colour they are, as long as they are a good temperament and healthy, what more could one want??

I would have concerns over this kennel for the following reasons...

1. Health test results are not clearly shown...
2. they are using the same "stud dog" on all their bitches... what????
3. The dog, although very nice, is unlikely to be as good as she is saying... she hasn't shown him, or if he was shown in Europe, what he won!
4. How many litters are they having???
5. Lots of fluffy words on the website, not much solid fact!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Actually this is not really true. The lighter shade Goldens are allowed in the American show rings. In fact in Canada they do quite well. In the US the overwhelming majority of judges do not favor the lighter dogs and thus they do not do well in the conformation ring. But they are allowed.


Sorry - I should have been clearer. The dogs are allowed to participate, but the AKC standard clearly states that "Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable." The dogs marketed as "Cream," at least on the site posted in this thread, are definitely too light to be serious ring contenders. The KC standard is much clearer on allowing very light dogs, specifically including "Any shade of gold or cream."

Light gold dogs are acceptable and shouldn't be penalized in AKC rings (even though they apparently sometimes are), but the almost-white dogs being marketed are absolutely "extremely pale." You see plenty of light colored dogs doing well in AKC rings, but you don't see "cream" ones, and, as far as I read the standard, you shouldn't.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden Leo said:


> In *European*, as we are not all English  , show ring red or mahogany is not allowed as it is in American ring.
> I think it's a big loss for judges/breeders favoring or not favoring lighter color since many, really many cream colored dogs are true representative of the breed. And some of them are real legends.
> My personal preference (even though I have very light show dog) are dogs with color of the honey. But in the ring always are the "flashy" ones that are light colored. If the dog is good, he's good no matter of the color.


It's the KC's breed standard I was citing, and they're a British organization. I don't know what rules are throughout the rest of Europe. Certainly, I meant no slight against the rest of Europe.

It is indeed a loss when judges misread the standard or have a color prejudice, but having a range of allowable colors is how we have a breed with a particular look. I have nothing against light dogs, but some of them are so white that I hardly see why one would call them "Golden" Retrievers.


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