# Training techniques - New position statement from AVSAB



## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I prefer and have had much more success with balanced training. I also don't think of a prong collar or an e-collar as something detrimental or cruel. I think people can be cruel and if they don't have compassion for animals -- even their own -- they can use those tools to be abusive. Not all dogs are the same. I think it would be more cruel to keep trying methods ad nauseam on a dog who isn't responding to them. It limits the dog greatly and limits what the owner is able to do with the dog. 

I've read, and participated, in threads where people go on about prong collars, e-collars, treats, and harnesses. I use a flat collar, have used a prong collar (he certainly doesn't act like it's an aversive [as in bad] when I put it on him), am considering an e-collar for off leash hiking and him free running in the meadows up in the mountains (it will give me peace of mind just in case their is a bear or coyotes or something), and a harness occasionally for a longer hike because I can hook his bowl and some water to it for him to carry. He appears to be perfectly happy. People can use these tools and have a great relationship with their dog.

I'm not a hunter, but I don't know how it would be safe without an e-collar in some situations. 

I find it discouraging, condescending and limiting when positive only trainers present using the above tools as detrimental if the tools are used in an educated and responsible way. I've also found positive only trainers who are hypocritical because they have no issue putting a strap over the dog's nose and placing pressure there. Dogs often hate those things and I agree with them. I also went to a class once where besides the halti lead, the trainer would give her dogs a pretty strong leash correction where they cowered, yet she ranted about Herm Sprengers. Or you have positive trainers who would have you hang out on the outskirts of existence for years until an over aroused dog calms down and can get closer. I think that seems hard on a dog. 

Anyway, everyone has their thoughts and I mostly think people should just not use what doesn't work for them and perhaps not cast so much judgment on methods they haven't tried, but with which others have had great success.

One final note -- I think aggressive dogs need professional help via an animal behaviorist.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The sad thing is whoever compiles information for the gobbledy goop in that article sees the world as black and white.

Training.... and, well, LIVING, with dogs is not black and white.

Have met more than a few people over the years who were so handicapped by their inability to understand their dogs or use common sense corrections when the moment called for it.... and they created monsters they couldn't live with. Dogs getting surrendered because of resource guarding, over out of control behaviors.

There's people out there who coast with their dogs and the miserable positive only crowd calls that luck or says it's all just in the dogs breeding. Except those dogs who are so easy and wonderful to live with - have littermates with folks who don't understand their dogs or see them as DOGS, and they've had a lot of problems.

Have heard people talk about corrections like they are all the equivalent of a big man taking his belt off to beat a horse to death.

And it goes even deeper with people vilifying some tools while glorifying others which have about the equal amount of negative consequences for the dog. It's all based on pre-associations, prejudices, and unconscious or conscious biases.

Prongs are evil. They all leave dogs necks bloody and wounded when you use them.

Gentle leaders are G_E_N_T_L_E and sweet and fluffy wonderfulness like prancing across a field of daisies with your dog singing Hills are Alive with the Sounds of Music. 

In reality, when you put either of these tools on a dog for the first time - there is the same flinch and instant "get that off of me" reaction from the dog.

Prongs were designed to work like a dominant dog's jaw on your dog's neck. They work well to fine tune corrections for dog into something as subtle as a slight squeeze of your finger.

Gentle Leaders are designed after nose straps or twitches that we put on horses to control a 2000 pound animal with the slightest pressure.

There's people who talk an awful lot about their dogs feelings and emotions and preventing them from feeling fear and panic - but they put a brand new pup who has just been separated from his litter and the only home he knows into a tiny space in a crate that's been covered so it's dark and smothering and isolating. And they see no harm coming from keeping that baby in an isolating box a majority of his day, every day, through his life. 

Anyway.  Didn't mean to go dark here on you - but I just think that people who elect themselves as speakers for all animals do not do enough to actually understand animals or help owners understand their animals. All while dividing people into two groups - good and evil, depending on whether they use corrections or not. And corrections are all punishment, even though technically the two terms means completely different things.

If you are going somewhere in a car with somebody who almost makes a wrong turn. You speaking up and telling them to keep going is not a PUNISHMENT. It is a correction. It can be very simple and common sense.

In dog training a correction stops a dog from making a mistake - and helps the dog be right so he can be rewarded right away. That's how simple it is.

If you want to further blow people's minds, explain to them how corrections can be paired with rewards to make them EXCITING and positive reinforcing. Many people in obedience have some form of "gotcha" corrections which if done right and timed right, rev up a dog and make him super excited and happy while training.

I think that if positive only people do not want to be permanently associated with "dribble" (folks who are so handicapped and unable to train their dogs, you see them chain rewarding dogs who are blowing them off, begging their dogs for attention, etc).... they should not permanently associate everyone else with the old style trainers who beat their dogs into submission. Those are two extreme ends - and I firmly believe that the most successful folks out there are way in the middle or tending to be 99% positive only (but they also know their dogs are dogs and correct as needed and with the least amount of correction needed).


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## alwillow (Apr 24, 2019)

Thanks for posting this article. I thought it was interesting that they were showing excellent recall results for reward based training as compared to e-collar recall training. I think that is understandably a common usage for e-collars.

I am finding reward based training fascinating and an interesting way of evolving and looking at training in a different way. I am old enough to have trained both ways. As I have gotten more skilled in these training methods I am seeing better results. My current dog has a better recall than any of my other dogs and he has been trained with all positive reinforcement. It is good to see some actual broad studies that reinforce what I have suspected.

I think the most important thing is for people spending time training and doing activities with their dog whatever method they use, but it is a good thing to be open to change. For me, there has been a learning curve, but am pleased with the results and attitude of my dog.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Some trainers who try to use "force free" or "positive only" techniques use them poorly and inconsistently and end up with ill-behaved dogs. Some who use force free or positive only techniques use them well and have dogs that are competing at the highest (national, international) levels of their chosen sports (OB, agility, IPO, etc.).

Some trainers who take a more "balanced" approach to their training (including using corrections, pinch collars, e-collars, etc.) use them poorly and end up with traumatized, abused, aggressive and shut down dogs. Some who take a more balanced approach use aversive techniques sparingly and effectively and have happy, well adjusted dogs who are competing at the highest (national, international) levels of their chosen sports.

I just want to point out two things about the article I shared.
1. It was not written by some random internet guru who doesn't know what he's talking about. It was written by a collection of trained and certified veterinary behavior specialists with more knowledge of dog behavior than most of us could ever hope to have, and their judgements and observations were based on _scientific research_ and not opinion. Most of the authors spend their lives working with dogs with serious behavioral issues and are the very individuals all of us are quick to recommend when someone is experiencing behavioral issues that are beyond the abilities of the average dog trainer.
2. The article sites multiple _scientific studies_ that have shown both higher obedience in dogs trained with reward based methods, as well as overall lower levels of stress and other markers of mental and emotional well-being in the dogs. If someone cares to share a link to an equivalent study or studies that contradicts the findings of the cited studies, I for one would sincerely like to read it.

I knew when I posted this position paper that some would have a strong negative reaction to it. I understand why those who have chosen to use, and who have experienced success with using, some of the training tools and methods that this position paper does not support would find the position of the AVSAB to be... uncomfortable, and contrary to your deeply held beliefs or even your personal experiences. But let's not toss it wholesale out the window with a knee-jerk "positive only trainers are idiots" kind of reaction. How about at least taking it as food for thought? Or considering that true experts in dog behavior may have a point you wish to consider? Just as you object to "purely positive" trainers universally condemning YOUR training choices, perhaps you should also consider whether the "problem" with rewards-based training that you may have experienced or witnessed has more to do with the user than with the "tool."


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> 1. It was not written by some random internet guru who doesn't know what he's talking about. It was written by a collection of trained and certified veterinary behavior specialists with more knowledge of dog behavior than most of us could ever hope to have, and their judgements and observations were based on _scientific research_ and not opinion. Most of the authors spend their lives working with dogs with serious behavioral issues and are the very individuals all of us are quick to recommend when someone is experiencing behavioral issues that are beyond the abilities of the average dog trainer.
> 2. The article sites multiple _scientific studies_ that have shown both higher obedience in dogs trained with reward based methods, as well as overall lower levels of stress and other markers of mental and emotional well-being in the dogs. If someone cares to share a link to an equivalent study or studies that contradicts the findings of the cited studies, I for one would sincerely like to read it.


Except remember that these people are basing their OPINIONS on case studies which involve dogs who they typically see. These can be neurotic dogs who are because of breed tendencies what they are. These could be aggressive dogs for the same reasons - it's built into their breeds.

Management of these dogs when they go kablooey in inexperienced homes does require kid gloves at that point.

The fault I'm pointing out is the tendency to take studies that were built on neurotic, aggressive... generally BROKEN dogs and apply the same mentalities to all dogs regardless of breed, regardless of the actual dog's temperament and traits, regardless of situation. That is unsound. 

As well, there is that tendency which I called out which sees everything in black and white extremes. And does not recognize or appreciate what people do in the real world with the dogs that would never ever be brought to them because they are sound, well cared for, well trained... and happy normal dogs.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Megora said:


> Except remember that these people are basing their OPINIONS on case studies which involve dogs who they typically see. These can be neurotic dogs who are because of breed tendencies what they are. These could be aggressive dogs for the same reasons - it's built into their breeds.


Actually, I don't believe this is true. They cite quite a few studies that were done for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways. I don't think they were doing their own studies only on their clients. Taking a quick look at the list of cited studies I'm not seeing anything that would indicate that the dogs used or the owners surveyed were only those who were dealing with behavioral issues.

If I were to criticize anything it might be that there were quite a few "survey" studies, which are more easily biased by owner self-reported responses, but I'd have to work through the whole list to decide if that is a legitimate concern... or if it is, whether I believe the studies were biased enough to make the researchers 'conclusions invalid.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> Actually, I don't believe this is true. They cite quite a few studies that were done for a variety of reasons and in a variety of ways. I don't think they were doing their own studies only on their clients. Taking a quick look at the list of cited studies I'm not seeing anything that would indicate that the dogs used or the owners surveyed were only those who were dealing with behavioral issues.


I think they took the type of training/handling necessary for neurotic, aggressive, etc... dogs and applied it across the board. In their opinion, all dogs have the same wiring. And that is just wrong.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Megora said:


> I think they took the type of training/handling necessary for neurotic, aggressive, etc... dogs and applied it across the board. In their opinion, all dogs have the same wiring. And that is just wrong.


Can you explain further why you believe that to be true? I’m not seeing that in either the position statement or the cited studies, but I’m happy to consider your perspective if you can show/tell me what you are seeing that leads you to that conclusion… to me, it looks like they have a good mix of studies on the average pet dog, military dogs, client dogs, dogs of various breeds, dogs from various countries, etc.

For example, here is one of the peer reviewed studies cited in the position paper: Does training method matter? Evidence for the negative impact of aversive-based methods on companion dog welfare


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> Can you explain further why you believe that to be true? I’m not seeing that in either the position statement or the cited studies, but I’m happy to consider your perspective if you can show/tell me what you are seeing that leads you to that conclusion… to me, it looks like they have a good mix of studies on the average pet dog, military dogs, client dogs, dogs of various breeds, dogs from various countries, etc.


Are you serious?


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I don't have time to read the whole thing right now....just remember that vets don't always know a whole lot about behavior training. You should see the simple things my dogs do at the vet and the entire staff thinks it's amazing.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Completely agree  I also started awhile ago and have trained using old style and what I will call new style over the course of decades and much prefer R+. There are so many ways to train and the new methods being used that I have seen tends to go more towards R+


How do we break it down in ways that are understandable to our dogs? How do the pieces fit together? How do I train a dog so that when a dog dies, I will never regret something I did to that dog in the name of training?

How do I train in a way that helps me NOT go all competitive (yeah a bad quality I work very hard to stop ) with other teams but happier with myself as the human part of the team? 

Just some ramblings from a person who has seen both sides and truly enjoys learning new ways to be a trainer & companion to my dogs, both in & out of the ring. 

I think bottom line is everyone needs to decide their goals and how they will work towards them in a manner that fits best.

ETA I should probably add that my chosen, and loved, day job is as a computer software designer & developer. I know my inputs & where I want to get to, so figuring out the middle pieces is just my joy & nature...


alwillow said:


> Thanks for posting this article. I thought it was interesting that they were showing excellent recall results for reward based training as compared to e-collar recall training. I think that is understandably a common usage for e-collars.
> 
> I am finding reward based training fascinating and an interesting way of evolving and looking at training in a different way. I am old enough to have trained both ways. As I have gotten more skilled in these training methods I am seeing better results. My current dog has a better recall than any of my other dogs and he has been trained with all positive reinforcement. It is good to see some actual broad studies that reinforce what I have suspected.
> 
> I think the most important thing is for people spending time training and doing activities with their dog whatever method they use, but it is a good thing to be open to change. For me, there has been a learning curve, but am pleased with the results and attitude of my dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Abeille said:


> I don't have time to read the whole thing right now....just remember that vets don't always know a whole lot about behavior training. You should see the simple things my dogs do at the vet and the entire staff thinks it's amazing.


You don't have to read it. It is the same old schpeel.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Megora said:


> Are you serious?


I am totally serious. And I’m sincerely trying to understand your perspective. Clearly I have biases of my own but I’m trying to keep an open mind. I respect your opinion and experience and if you are seeing something about the validity of this paper that I’m oblivious to, I honestly want to hear your opinion, I’d just like to see it backed by evidence and fact.

Is there something about this organization that I’m not aware of? Do they have a widely recognized “agenda“? Am I missing something in the position paper that clearly indicates a bias? Do you see a pattern in the cited studies that looks like they cherry picked studies to support a preexisting belief? Are there scientific studies you can point to that contradict the ones cited in their position paper?


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## alwillow (Apr 24, 2019)

Abeille said:


> I don't have time to read the whole thing right now....just remember that vets don't always know a whole lot about behavior training. You should see the simple things my dogs do at the vet and the entire staff thinks it's amazing.


Of course, all veterinarians aren't behavior experts, but the study in the original post is compiled by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior. This group is composed of Veterinarians who either specialize or take a special interest in Behavior, so it is worth considering. This means they work hard to learn the latest techniques etc. The veterinarians and techs in your case were celebrating that you had taken the time to teach your dog and your dog was comfortable enough in that environment to show off, doesn't necessarily mean they don't know anything.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

[I deleted my original comment… alwillow beat me to it! 🙂]


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> I am totally serious. And I’m sincerely trying to understand your perspective. Clearly I have biases of my own but I’m trying to keep an open mind. I respect your opinion and experience and if you are seeing something about the validity of this paper that I’m oblivious to, I honestly want to hear your opinion, I’d just like to see it backed by evidence and fact.
> 
> Is there something about this organization that I’m not aware of? Do they have a widely recognized “agenda“? Am I missing something in the position paper that clearly indicates a bias? Do you see a pattern in the cited studies that looks like they cherry picked studies to support a preexisting belief? Are there scientific studies you can point to that contradict the ones cited in their position paper?


I do not think you are serious. Otherwise, I can only imagine you live in a windowless box and do not pay any attention to what the most common issues in the dog training (pet training problem) communities because of the "positive only" movement. 

It's the equivalent of sitting in a garbage dump and demanding that people prove with evidence that they are in fact sitting in a garbage dump. 😶


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Megora said:


> I do not think you are serious otherwise, I can only imagine you live in a windowless box and do not pay any attention to what the most common issues in the dog training (pet training problem) communities because of the "positive only" movement.


As you can see by my signature I do not live in a “windowless box.” I’ve been taking training classes of various kinds, by both positive and balanced trainers for almost thirty years. I was an agility instructor for several years and assisted in the puppy classes taught by a well-respected competitive obedience judge. I have seen failures, and successes, resulting from all types of training, including “positive only.” I‘m still not seeing how that invalidates the position paper or the more than a dozen peer-reviewed scientific studies that they based it on.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

pawsnpaca said:


> As you can see by my signature I do not live in a “windowless box.” I’ve been taking training classes of various kinds, by both positive and balanced trainers for almost thirty years. I was an agility instructor for several years and assisted in the puppy classes taught by a well-respected competitive obedience judge. I have seen failures, and successes, resulting from all types of training, including “positive only.” I‘m still not seeing how that invalidates the position paper or the more than a dozen peer-reviewed scientific studies that they based it on.


Lisa, thank you for the excellent information you originally posted in this thread and your courtesy in responses. Your accomplishments speak for themselves.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> As you can see by my signature I do not live in a “windowless box.” I’ve been taking training classes of various kinds, by both positive and balanced trainers for almost thirty years. I was an agility instructor for several years and assisted in the puppy classes taught by a well-respected competitive obedience judge. I have seen failures, and successes, resulting from all types of training, including “positive only.” I‘m still not seeing how that invalidates the position paper or the more than a dozen peer-reviewed scientific studies that they based it on.


Pawsnpaca, I've been taking classes of various kinds too since I was 10 years old. I'm much older than that today. I don't really pay much attention to whether my instructors are positive or balanced - just simply because it's not important. I would say that majority are primarily positive reinforcement trainers who use corrections as needed. One of my instructors over the years described herself a 99% positive. I would say she used more correction regularly than the instructors I have trained with the most. I have put obedience titles on my dogs. And I've trained my dogs to higher levels than I have titled. Reasons why I've not titled higher than I have would be my dogs developed issues that I had to train through. I saw these situations as cases where these dogs made me a better trainer. My strongest points in training my dogs are focus, heeling, retrieves, and off leash work. My weakest points have been stays and transitioning from training to competing.

My current dogs are in the works, but I hope to get a CD on one and a BN on the other before the end of the year. The training part is there. The dogs are solid. But currently am getting them in classes and matches to proof them so they hopefully score in the 190's when we get into trials vs losing points because they were not prepared for the stress/distractions of trials. The older one is trained through utility level. The younger one is not as advanced because I took a year off training (at class) because of covid. Currently am happy where they are and am pleased that they've not forgotten anything. There's nothing like being away from classes for a whole year and having a dog excelling in class at a higher level than dogs who took classes all last year.

At risk of sounding facetious here, my dogs do not have assorted "titles" like CGC, or rally or whatnot - not because they couldn't, but with everything I spend on my dogs while competing in conformation + focusing on the obedience titles I want... I do not pursue titles just for the sake of having titles on my dogs. It costs money and sometimes the training/exercises are at odds with other things I train. A good example is rally messes with heeling because it's so stop and go for a large breed dog.

I've taken competition level classes regularly since the 90's and titled all my dogs in obedience since I was a teenager. More than that, in "real life" my dogs are wonderful. Very typically, everyone comments on how well behaved they are, how obedient they are. I've raised all of them from puppyhood and have discovered along the way that much of training is conditioning from very early. The biggest items when raising a dog is fairness in handling. Back when I taught kids how to ride horses and helped train/break green horses, a lot of the same philosophies transfer to dogs as far as fairness and being soft handed but observant. I think with modern training people do not adequately apply fairness and observation when training their dogs.

As far as your questions as to why I say that article was the same old schpeel from people who hide behind their paper certifications or college degrees and utilize trigger words to misconstrue training methods utilized by some of the most caring, dedicated, and successful trainers in this country, I still think it is necessary to consider all of the problems which pet people now have when training their dogs.

I was talking to my mom about this and my mom bless her heart doesn't spent too much time thinking about dog training. But even she was outright laughing when I described to her some of the bizarre quandaries which pet people have with their dogs.

More seriously, I think the typical message given by positive only types out there is that they believe the common denominator pet trainer is somebody who will take 6 classes of training only with their dogs, and never attend another class in their life. And they would rather spend those 6 classes layering on all the positive handling only ideas so when mistakes are made, it's not abusive application of corrections taught in the class.

I understand that completely. It's one of the reasons why I do not believe in telling people what I think they should really do when their dogs does completely unacceptable behaviors. Because I think we have all seen people in real life who are correcting dogs with aggression and anger.

The flipside of that though is that the place for people to learn how to read, understand, and even correct their dogs - is in obedience classes, in person, etc. Because if they do not learn how to correct appropriately (do not use more pressure than necessary based on the dog), they are going to use corrects in utter ignorance at home or as they acquire more and more equipment to solve problems that would never have existed had they (people) received better training in puppy classes.

On this forum, we have seen people trying to solve recall and pulling issues with electric collars. I find electric collars abhorrent - not because of what I see in classes where they are used correctly. It's what I see around town and more people switch to using electric collars to literally punish their dogs.

I shared previously a story about people literally having their dogs cowering and screaming as they are being electrocuted. All the stuff I said above about fairness and observation just doesn't exist with these people because they are not learning how to correct their dogs by somebody who in person can tell them how to measure a correction based on those two things.

The one person who I literally felt sick over what he was doing with that ecollar... I know for a fact he attended one round of classes with a positive only trainer. I know because I met him at classes (same club I train at regularly) and knew which classes he was taking.

The article and people who would not see anything biased or unhelpful in the language in the article, they are talking primarily about people like that person. But the language and message is that all corrections are punishment. All corrections break dogs. All corrections create aggression and other problems in dogs. Because all corrections are punishment. And that is wrong and narrow minded. And as I've said here, that mentality is creating people like that guy electrocuting his dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

alwillow said:


> The veterinarians and techs in your case were celebrating that you had taken the time to teach your dog and your dog was comfortable enough in that environment to show off, doesn't necessarily mean they don't know anything.


Or they rarely to never see a dog that is both lovely and actually is trained properly and truly are amazed.

Average person out there - including vets - think that a dog is trained if he sits on command and gives paw on command.

Higher level obedience which Abeille has done with her dogs, the dogs are trained well beyond that level.

I will just add, I train with OTCH people who have seen Abeille and her dogs at trials and they have stopped to watch. That says quite a lot about how nice her dogs are.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Megora said:


> At risk of sounding facetious here, my dogs do not have assorted "titles" like CGC, or rally or whatnot - not because they couldn't, but with everything I spend on my dogs while competing in conformation + focusing on the obedience titles I want... I do not pursue titles just for the sake of having titles on my dogs. It costs money and sometimes the training/exercises are at odds with other things I train. A good example is rally messes with heeling because it's so stop and go for a large breed dog.


FYI My Home Owner's insurance policy has a discount for my CGC certificates .... it saves me hundreds of dollars per year. Possibly the discount is equal to the premium for having the dogs but still substantial savings for my home insurance. You might wish to check with your insurance carrier. The CGC tests things that are not covered with obedience titling that represent just a good, safe dog to have in society and in a home.

I consider Rally an excellent introduction to rings, judges, environment as we have few matches in my area, and the signs themselves are actually old style doodling exercises meant to help teach a complete understanding of heeling - I am speaking of learning through Advanced with some Excellent signs in the 80s with my trainer who specialized in protection dogs -- well before Rally became an AKC titling event. So again, IMO, win-win - I get titles on my dogs for things I consider essential to training even without the possibility of titles.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmberSunrise said:


> FYI My Home Owner's insurance policy has a discount for my CGC certificates .... it saves me hundreds of dollars per year. Possibly the discount is equal to the premium for having the dogs but still substantial savings for my home insurance. You might wish to check with your insurance carrier. The CGC tests things that are not covered with obedience titling that represent just a good, safe dog to have in society and in a home.
> 
> I consider Rally an excellent introduction to rings, judges, environment as we have few matches in my area, and the signs themselves are actually old style doodling exercises meant to help teach a complete understanding of heeling - I am speaking of learning through Advanced with some Excellent signs in the 80s with my trainer who specialized in protection dogs -- well before Rally became an AKC titling event. So again, IMO, win-win - I get titles on my dogs for things I consider essential to training even without the possibility of titles.


Hmm... we don't pay any extra for having dogs. Only would be the case if we had what the insurance deemed to be "dangerous" dogs. There is a list of breeds that they gave us that would affect insurance either way. Goldens are not on that list. 

BTW - interesting vague memory thing and I'm still wondering if my brain is making this up. But I remember a time when having a CD on your dog meant something as far as insurance and ability to rent apartments or travel with dogs without paying extra fees.

CGC tests are irrelevant when the dogs train for them and pass at 6 months. This is prior to the point when behavior issues develop, particularly with more dominant breeds. Through group classes, etc.... have met people who get CGC's on all their dogs and.... their dogs have issues, including actual dog aggression.

Rally - I used to do as an intro/prep for being in the ring - same as you. I stopped when Beginner Novice was introduced by AKC, as it serves the same purpose and is more useful as it is nearly the same as novice, but designed for a very young or green dog.

Mr. Glee is ready for BN - but not CD yet. This is primarily because if we are in the ring and dumbbells are being thrown anywhere nearby, his mind is gone and he's likely to jump gates to fetch. Little man loves retrieving more than anything else and he's not really been training in an environment where he knows to focus despite every wire in his body telling him his job is to fetch.  That will come in the next year - but meanwhile, can get him out for his BN. I think. Assuming we can continue getting him into classes! Class this week (his 3rd class back since he was a baby in 2019) got cancelled because of massive power outages this week! >.< 

Sitting alongside rally rings often with Bertie and Jacks.... I saw people getting scores in the 100's with runs that would have scored in the 170's in regular obedience. (100 is top score for rally run, 200 is top score for regular obedience run for anyone who doesn't know this, not Sharon). That's a reason why I think... unfortunately.... a rally title does not mean much to people who compete in regular obedience.

I think in the last 5+ years, there have been substantial changes to rally. Like big changes. And what it means is there are people who had used rally as a step-stool into regular obedience, but now they basically just stick to rally and express the opinion that their dog doesn't enjoy obedience. I'm not honestly sure why that is other than assuming that there is still a considerable difficulty in transitioning from rally to regular obedience, after you have grown accustomed to competing in rally. I think there are more overt handling habits that develop in rally.

I will say that I HOPE people do not feel discouraged about doing these venues with their dogs. Any regular and consistent training builds relationships between people and their pets. It is always positive.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Rally is actually more like dancing with your dogs, and of course there is the being able to talk with your dogs so it is just a more teamwork type event. I have a friend who really gets into it using cues like 'Wheeeee' etc. Her dogs love it. 

Precision is pretty equivalent now once you get up there in rally levels. I do both obedience & rally but my true focus is obedience .. there is fun and expertise demanded for each now (beyond novice RN and CD levels)

I have found the heeling requirements for Rally are tightening up and if it would score a point in reg obedience, it will score a point in Rally -- somewhat crooked sits might not get dinged but serious lags, wides & forges will the same as in obedience - and of course in Novice & Intermediate, any tight leash will get dinged so there's that. Rally has grown into a sport that many find preferable to standard obedience, I believe because you can talk and you can use some body language which is more dog friendly (I think leg tapping etc stops at the advanced level but not sure since I never use that)


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Mr. Glee is ready for BN - but not CD yet. This is primarily because if we are in the ring and dumbbells are being thrown anywhere nearby, his mind is gone and he's likely to jump gates to fetch. Little man loves retrieving more than anything else and he's not really been training in an environment where he knows to focus despite every wire in his body telling him his job is to fetch.  That will come in the next year - but meanwhile, can get him out for his BN. I think. Assuming we can continue getting him into classes! Class this week (his 3rd class back since he was a baby in 2019) got cancelled because of massive power outages this week! >.<


As you know, I'm new to all of this and started Logan in competition obedience classes about eight weeks ago. We were really affected by the pandemic (like many) as two weeks before Logan's puppy kindergarten was starting everything was canceled and I floundered the first year on my own. I had a Golden before, but I had never tried to do anything competition-wise with one.

Anyway, in class a couple of weeks ago we were lined up and doing dumbbell retrieves. So, there were six to eight dogs retrieving dumbbells. One time, Logan crossed lanes and took one that belonged to a Standard Poodle. She looked at him, and then looked at his dumbbell, and decided it would do.  Ooops. He's doing pretty well though and I'm the one who is bumbling along feeling like the Keystone Cops for the most part, but we are learning and it is fun.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

All homeowners should inform their Homeowner's Insurance provider they have a dog so additional Liability Insurance can be added to the policy regardless the breed, it doesn't only apply to Breeds on the Restricted List. Ins. requirements may vary with each State. 

The Liability Insurance not only covers dog bites, but also accidents, such as if someone was visiting, they tripped and fell over your dog, they required medical treatment such as for a broken hip. The Insurance would cover the claim. Also, it covers any claims for damages your dog may do to someone else's home/property.

Any home owner that is a pet owner or anyone Renting that doesn't have additional liability coverage can be held financially responsible for any claims made.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I didn’t read the study, but I do want to comment on the Rally vs Obedience thing. People like Rally more because it’s easier. They might give you another excuse, but the base truth of the matter is that Rally - even Rally Master - is much easier than Obedience. I do not agree that they score heeling the same way in Rally as they do Obedience, generally. Although I have had a few sharp penciled judges…

Y’all know I love Rally, but I’m not planning on doing it with Eevee any time soon. I am finding that Obedience appeals more to my personality. Additionally, Rally Master can have so many stationary signs that it just takes the dance right out of it. It may be better now, but course designs when Master first came out were lacking.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

diane0905 said:


> Anyway, in class a couple of weeks ago we were lined up and doing dumbbell retrieves. So, there were six to eight dogs retrieving dumbbells. One time, Logan crossed lanes and took one that belonged to a Standard Poodle. She looked at him, and then looked at his dumbbell, and decided it would do.  Ooops. He's doing pretty well though and I'm the one who is bumbling along feeling like the Keystone Cops for the most part, but we are learning and it is fun.


 Luckily for me, none of my classes involve group retrieves unless there is gating between the dogs.

I remember my first dog (King) having such a strong retrieve that he would bowl over anyone, or anything, between him and his dumbbell...one instructor ,for whatever reason reason, decided to stand over and put his foot on King's dumbbell and quickly found out that was a really bad idea when yep!! he ended up on his butt and King ended up with his DB -- of course the instructor learned not to get between a strong golden and his dumbbell with that one LOL


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmberSunrise said:


> Rally is actually more like dancing with your dogs, and of course there is the being able to talk with your dogs so it is just a more teamwork type event. I have a friend who really gets into it using cues like 'Wheeeee' etc. Her dogs love it.


Is it weird if I find regular obedience heel patterns more like dancing with your dogs? Especially when training for the utility heel/stand pattern. Especially if you have your heeling music going (my current music is some random thing from youtube). 

My heeling music currently - 





My trainer has tried many times to get me used to heeling in time to Pretty Woman, but the above matches my mood and speed a little more. 

Jovi is a lot like Jacks when heeling - there's always those googly eyes looking up at me while we GO. I can't wait until I polish up with him and get ready for NB with him. Actually this thread reminded me to check close dates.....


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Megora said:


> Is it weird if I find regular obedience heel patterns more like dancing with your dogs? Especially when training for the utility heel/stand pattern. Especially if you have your heeling music going (my current music is some random thing from youtube).
> 
> Jovi is a lot like Jacks when heeling - there's always those googly eyes looking up at me while we GO. I can't wait until I polish up with him and get ready for NB with him. Actually this thread reminded me to check close dates.....


I have a constant 1,2,3,4,1,2,3 4....going on in my mind while heeling. Usually to a metronome beat of 132-136 depending on the dog. Used to play a few woodwinds and guitar so a metronome beat comes naturally to me and I don't need to worry about extra body movements (kind of dancing to a song going on in my head)

Although in rally for the 3 steps back(which I have finally started training so I may just go beyond advanced so I can get to masters  ) my precue is boom chakala with cha-cha-cha while actively reverse heeling...and those I say aloud along with a dance type movement LOL


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

If I wanted training advice from a veterinarian, I would ask one that actually trains dogs at the highest levels successfully.
For instance, this years winning handler at the National Amateur Retriever Championship, Doreen Comrie-Bristol DVM. I don't know the Dr. but she has a great dog and I bet she has an e collar in her training bag.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

diane0905 said:


> I prefer and have had much more success with balanced training. I also don't think of a prong collar or an e-collar as something detrimental or cruel. I think people can be cruel and if they don't have compassion for animals -- even their own -- they can use those tools to be abusive. Not all dogs are the same. I think it would be more cruel to keep trying methods ad nauseam on a dog who isn't responding to them. It limits the dog greatly and limits what the owner is able to do with the dog.
> 
> I've read, and participated, in threads where people go on about prong collars, e-collars, treats, and harnesses. I use a flat collar, have used a prong collar (he certainly doesn't act like it's an aversive [as in bad] when I put it on him), am considering an e-collar for off leash hiking and him free running in the meadows up in the mountains (it will give me peace of mind just in case their is a bear or coyotes or something), and a harness occasionally for a longer hike because I can hook his bowl and some water to it for him to carry. He appears to be perfectly happy. People can use these tools and have a great relationship with their dog.
> 
> ...


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I will have to try music while heeling. It may be something that comes to mind with more experience. lol


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Megora said:


> The article and people who would not see anything biased or unhelpful in the language in the article, they are talking primarily about people like that person. But the language and message is that all corrections are punishment. All corrections break dogs. All corrections create aggression and other problems in dogs. Because all corrections are punishment. And that is wrong and narrow minded. And as I've said here, that mentality is creating people like that guy electrocuting his dog.


@Megora thank you for the post from which I pulled this quote ^^^... This was a considered response that helps to clarify your perspective and I'm glad you shared it. It may surprise you to know that I agree with the majority of what you posted, and I do understand where you are coming from. I too have seen people who are so committed to "positive-only" training that they're like the parents of bratty children who have never heard the word "no" and their dogs are almost completely out of control. Obviously, no one should be supporting that kind of "training." However, one of the common phrases among GOOD positive trainers is "Positive doesn't mean permissive." It's just that rewards-based trainers don't generally use punishment (or "corrections" if that term is preferred) to get rid of bad behaviors. Instead, they manage the environment to increase the chances of the dog making the "correct" choice so that behavior can be rewarded and the "incorrect" choices will eventually extinguish due to lack of reinforcement. The tricky thing is that effective rewards-based training can be complicated and nuanced and it takes an intelligent and committed owner to learn it, stick with it and do it well, _especially _if you are using it to train anything beyond basic manners. And, to be honest, resorting to corrections, even relatively benign ones, is often faster and just as effective, and when used by an experienced trainer at the lowest effective level, does no real harm to many (most?) dogs, especially those dogs with the work ethic that is favored by those of us who train to compete in the various dog sports.

Anyway, the only part of your post that I seriously disagree with is the part I quoted above, because this is not at all how I read the position paper. I think that what they were saying is that the _research _indicates that dogs that are trained with aversives are more likely to experience scientifically-measurable levels of stress that do not seem to occur in dogs that are trained using rewards-based measures. But that said, we can agree to disagree on this. My hope in posting the paper to begin with was just to provide information so that everyone can make informed choices when deciding to what methods to use when training their own dogs.

Moving on from THAT topic to join in the conversation that has evolved since I stepped away over the weekend...

My first dog, Molly, was the only one that ever wore a choke collar, and the only one that I have trained for competitive OB. She and I got our "foundations" training under a traditional (for the early '90s) "walk and pop" trainer, and both of us kind of hated it. Thankfully, as I became more serious about trying for a CD, I was fortunate to find that OB judge I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, and she was my first exposure to rewards-based training. Suddenly, training for OB was FUN again... for both myself AND my dog. We achieved our CD quickly (three shows, three legs, with I believe my lowest score being a 187). At the time we finished our CD the jump height for goldens was (I think) 30", which I was not comfortable asking my dog to do, but the AKC was considering dropping the jump height, so I delayed entering any Open trials while I awaited that change. While I waited, I trained Molly for all the exercises up through Utility and she seemed to love it, at least in class. However, when we finally went back to competing, suddenly my happy working dog disappeared. As soon as we entered the show grounds, her whole body language changed... her head was down, her tail was down, her heeling was lack luster (slow, wide, laggy) and every exercise was slow and sloppy. After NQing in two consecutive tries at Open, I gave up and started doing agility (and a little Rally - which was brand new at the time), where my happy working dog appeared once again.

For several years all I did was agility with my dogs, but when Rally came on the scene I fell in love with "obedience" work again. I love Rally more than OB _not _because it's easier (though I concede that it is, at least at the lower levels), but because it was more _natural. _When I'm interacting with my dogs on a day to day basis, I'm always talking to them, praising (or correcting) them, petting them, connecting with them, providing feedback on what I like and don't like about what they are doing. I think one of the reasons that Molly loved OB classes but hated competition is that I turned into this weird, tense person who didn't talk to her or given her any feedback or reinforcement. At least in the Rally ring I can always use my voice to praise, encourage or even (through tone) correct to a certain extent. True, my dogs are secretly hoping that a treat is hidden somewhere on my body and will soon be forthcoming, but at least they know through my verbal feedback if what they are doing is something that may earn them that reward. I still don't get the same snappy performance in the ring that I do in class, but at least my dogs aren't telling me with every fiber of their being that they don't want to be there.

To be honest, I would LOVE to have another go at competitive obedience. I so envy and admire those who compete in OB with a happy, prancey dog completing the exercises precisely and with joy and enthusiasm for the work. A few things have kept me from it. One is a simple lack of time and energy (I struggle to make one class a week and to spend more than a few minutes a day in training). Another is a lack of access to in-person trainers in my area who can help me figure out how to get a dog who LOVES OB enough to do it without any kind of reinforcement or feedback in the ring, and ideally without physical corrections in training (because I'm not personally willing to use them when training a fun, "optional" behavior). And the last is I just haven't had a dog yet that I thought would work effectively for me in that environment (e.g., doing things like long heeling patterns without any kind of reward or feedback). I have some hope that my newest, Castor, might be that dog, but his nickname right now is "master of disaster" and the boy is more enthusiasm than grace, so we'll just have to see how things go. I've found some excellent online resources lately that may get us on our way... if I can just find the time to follow through!

(PS for those of you who think working to music may help your performance in OB or Rally... ABBA is my go-to group. Who can't be upbeat and happy when heeling to "Dancing Queen" or "Take a Chance on Me"?  )


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> Anyway, the only part of your post that I seriously disagree with is the part I quoted above, because this is not at all how I read the position paper. I think that what they were saying is that the _research _indicates that dogs that are trained with aversives are more likely to experience scientifically-measurable levels of stress that do not seem to occur in dogs that are trained using rewards-based measures.


And that was the point I was disputing.

Have seen dogs who are trained with positive only methods who are very stressed and burned out - because they don't understand what they are supposed to be doing. Or the methods require a lot of reps and minute steps which burn the dogs out. For a lot of these people depending on what they are trying to do, the fall back excuse for anything that's not working out is "my dog is not enjoying it" - and so they quit.

Meanwhile research fails to take into account those dogs, just like it does not take into account the dogs who are pleasantly sound and stable despite being trained with corrections. There is such a thing as positive corrections where any correction is paired with play or rewards and the dog is super excited raring to go.



> I too have seen people who are so committed to "positive-only" training that they're like the parents of bratty children who have never heard the word "no" and their dogs are almost completely out of control. Obviously, no one should be supporting that kind of "training." However, one of the common phrases among GOOD positive trainers is "Positive doesn't mean permissive." It's just that rewards-based trainers don't generally use punishment (or "corrections" if that term is preferred) to get rid of bad behaviors.


I think there are a couple serious issues that are very common today. Very common. Which lead to what you observed, as have I. My view is slightly different, because I'm always thinking about how ridiculously simple problems become big complicated problems because somewhere there is a trainer who refuses to share a bigger toolbox with an owner. Or the very least talk dog brains with owners, to help the owners understand the way their dogs think (as animals). 

Instead, you have people afraid to put a collar on their dogs because they think their dog's neck is so delicate as to be injured by pulling. And we've got one of the strongest necked breeds out there - because these dogs were bred to carry heavy birds! They are not supposed to be pencil necked like some other breeds out there! 

You have people afraid to correct a puppy who is humping - even though the very simplest and gentlest correction is all that is needed. And fast forward a few months, instead of a 20-30 pound pup randomly humping.... they have a 70+ pound dog who is a humping monster around the house or with other dogs and very difficult to correct at that point because hormones are involved by that point. 

Instead you have people convinced that their dog is doing something out of spite. Because if you have been conditioned to imagine human responses and emotions in your dog, then the next step is imagining that your dog is a spiteful as a human being can be, including kids (yes, kids do things out of spite sometimes! LOL). 

Other harmful effect is people getting dogs they have NO BUSINESS getting. That's very green and inexperienced owners adopting breeds that are known to be very stubborn, very hard headed, and even having some pretty common faults (suspiciousness and standoffishness towards strangers and fear-aggression or just aggression towards other dogs). 

There's folks who think that positive handling is a panacea for preventing all kinds of negative behaviors from dogs, then you are OK with getting breeds that have those tendencies bred into them. 

Then the other thing is there are people out there who like to say "there are no bad dogs, there are only misunderstood dogs". And the way they apply that thought is that they like to say that dogs become aggressive because they were corrected or something terrible happened during a fear stage. And in their philosophy, being corrected is just as bad as something terrible happening during a fear stage. 

They liken an owner correcting a pup to a pup being attacked by an aggressive dog. 

There is a tendency to take very legit cases and twist them. 

Be aware that there is some association to some folks who use the same ideas to claim that many dogs who play in organized AKC sports with their owners are being forced to perform. 

My simple take is keep people honest. Whatever they have to say or do, all is fine if they are completely honest in the stances they take. 

As I've said, there are people who it is not enough to show results in what they've done (or hopefully have done) with the dogs they own or professionally work with and portray them in the correct context. 

Instead you have various people out there who do not care if they know that a take on prong collars, choke chains, or even corrections are broadly generalizing to the point of being dishonest. Because they are all or nothing. 



> To be honest, I would LOVE to have another go at competitive obedience. I so envy and admire those who compete in OB with a happy, prancey dog completing the exercises precisely and with joy and enthusiasm for the work. A few things have kept me from it. One is a simple lack of time and energy (I struggle to make one class a week and to spend more than a few minutes a day in training). Another is a lack of access to in-person trainers in my area who can help me figure out how to get a dog who LOVES OB enough to do it without any kind of reinforcement or feedback in the ring, and ideally without physical corrections in training (because I'm not personally willing to use them when training a fun, "optional" behavior). And the last is I just haven't had a dog yet that I thought would work effectively for me in that environment (e.g., doing things like long heeling patterns without any kind of reward or feedback). I have some hope that my newest, Castor, might be that dog, but his nickname right now is "master of disaster" and the boy is more enthusiasm than grace, so we'll just have to see how things go. I've found some excellent online resources lately that may get us on our way... if I can just find the time to follow through!


Just pointing out one thing.... you are starting with an adult dog, right? That is setting you back a little and making things a little more difficult when training. Because you are having to build a foundation right now with a dog that's semi-set in his ways.

Many people like myself or some of the OTCH people out there - the biggest time for training is when they are baby pups and sponges. At that point, you don't need any corrections at all. Very few are needed and most of us don't really correct baby pups in any noticeable way. It is literally all shaping, clicker training, etc.

When you have an adult dog - you are having to work harder to shape and build a foundation while also motivating a TON. And that is a ton you have to build up and then dial back before competing.

You have the advantage in being an experienced trainer - so it can be done. But it's definitely easier when you are training off leash work and heeling starts and happy recalls and all other foundation stuff to an 8-9 week old pup whose world is very small and hormones don't exist yet.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Megora said:


> Just pointing out one thing.... you are starting with an adult dog, right? That is setting you back a little and making things a little more difficult when training. Because you are having to build a foundation right now with a dog that's semi-set in his ways.
> 
> Many people like myself or some of the OTCH people out there - the biggest time for training is when they are baby pups and sponges. At that point, you don't need any corrections at all. Very few are needed and most of us don't really correct baby pups in any noticeable way. It is literally all shaping, clicker training, etc.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. Yes, I bought Castor when he was three, and although his breeder took him through puppy classes and I assume some handling classes (she had hoped he'd mature to be a show dog), I don't see any evidence that he received a ton of one on one training (It took me awhile to get him to recognize that if I held out my thumb and forefinger that I might be offering a treat, It also took me awhile to get a down on a verbal or on my preferred hand signal, and I'm STILL working to get him to understand the concept of "stand"!). He also is one of those dogs that defaults to melting into the ground at any perceived correction or if he's at all unsure of what I want. He's an interesting mix of anxiety and over-the-top enthusiasm for work as well, and has absolutely no idea of where his body is in space! He's a challenge for sure and I'm not sure I'll be able to get him to competition status before he's too old to jump, but he has such innate intelligence and willingness to learn that I really want to try. But yes... definitely a VERY different learning/training challenge than any of my puppies have been! What I can usually teach my puppies to do in a week (or a day!) sometimes takes months with Castor, despite his intelligence and willingness to learn.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I actually disagree with the following. In my mind a young pup's first 6-8 months is all about bonding, learning their environment and developing both physically & mentally. Focus is not a thing with young puppies (although in field work this may differ depending on breeding & instincts, but even then youngsters are not generally given long marks and training is made a game with a lot of happy clapping, running and heavy duty delight for a job well done). Introduction to what they will encounter in their adult life is what I consider their puppyhoood learning priorities.

Yes pups are sponges but in my mind that is a double edged sword. Crank the neck up in an unnatural position and the pup may learn to avoid heel, correct a lack of focus and the pup may never learn what can be safely ignored and so always be worried, if the handler bends down to heel the picture is entirely different than it would be with a more mature golden -- can you imagine a golden honestly thinking a forward knee or bent over body (given an able bodied handler) is the heel look? And I always keep in mind that under stress, our dogs will regress -- and puppies are simply not capable of focus or much precision.

With Wren I need to teach her some body mechanics, which I am just starting, in order to allow her to achieve the look I am hoping for. She has a rock back which I have never before had to deal with, and I certainly don't want to build that into her heeling picture. But she also needs the full picture - not me bending over, not me pulling up on her collar and pushing her rump down etc. 

She is still too young to do high hand touches etc although she can learn lower ones that can become higher as her joints & muscles become stronger. These will also be built into the picture I want for her work. She is becoming a little monkey who knows how to use her body and is curious but to date not alarmed at things, at 5 months old she uses wobble boards, planks, ladders, things that shift under her feet, she can do core obstacle courses that are problematic for adult dogs etc. IOW she is given opportunities to explore not only her environment but her body and how it functions.

Obedience / agility / rally / field work are all tough both physically and emotionally and I personally do not want any stresses placed on the physical / mental development until the mind and body are better suited. These can wait for a bit of maturity - mental & physical in my mind. 

She will not be all on adult when the pieces start being put together, granted, but by taking this approach I should be able to avoid things like a rock back sit causing a lag on a halt, possibly wide and/or crooked, which would also cause a lag, wide and/or bump on 1st step etc ..

I know many don't agree, but that is my opinion. Thoughts on foundation work vary and can be built in many ways and the decision on what pieces to build haow & when also vary.





Megora said:


> Just pointing out one thing.... you are starting with an adult dog, right? That is setting you back a little and making things a little more difficult when training. Because you are having to build a foundation right now with a dog that's semi-set in his ways.
> 
> Many people like myself or some of the OTCH people out there - the biggest time for training is when they are baby pups and sponges. At that point, you don't need any corrections at all. Very few are needed and most of us don't really correct baby pups in any noticeable way. It is literally all shaping, clicker training, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

With boys... I find that 5 months is the point when their brains check out. With mine - it's discovering dogs, people, places, smells, etc. My dogs usually have a foundation in place by then so it's not that bad. But in training classes, I see dogs who do not have the same foundation and their owners struggle so much. It's pulling teeth teaching "focus" then and building the excitement in training vs everything else around them.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I also occasionally field train with a couple of different vets. They both train with e-collars and pinch collars. There are many other vets in field work that both own and breed goldens down in the states, some of them have very well titled dogs. All train with e-collars and pinch collars. I’ll take experienced people over the ivory tower individuals any day. Real experience trumps a university any day.

Same with canine reproduction. I’ll discuss and get advice first from an experienced breeder before I would from my vet. And my vet will make that suggestion too! My vet will take you right now that she doesn’t do repro and has very little experience with it and she’s definitely not the person that can help me. If your vet doesn’t know how to collect a male, then that vet has no business giving you repro advice. Same with training. If the vet has zero experience with training in the area you want to train, don’t ask them for advice. I’m going to guess that all the people that wrote the article, have zero experience putting any titles on a dog. Meaning they have not had someone outside their world judge them against a standard that other handlers/dogs are judged against. 

I’m tired of the ivory tower telling me how to live. And yes I have several degrees and have plenty of experience with ivory towers.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

I have a dog of a breed with a lot of drive, which means I’m often training when my dog is on high alert, so much of my time is spent maintaining focus. My dog is not food motivated which made PO training ineffective during times when focus is required. I spent a lot of time teaching my dog to make eye contact and focus. I know trainers who use only positive with the same breed, but their dogs are medium drive and are much easier to train. I ended up using four pillars or balanced, which worked out much better. Most of our training is positive with voice rewards, but my dog also had to learn that some behaviors at some times were not ok. We worked on the concept of offering choices, where the dog is given the option of thinking and making choices. I had to set it up so the choice he makes is the right one. That is not easy to do because you have to stop thinking like a person and approach training from a dog’s perspective. My dog can now do everything I need him to do, and not do behaviors that are unacceptable. We did not go for obedience titles because it doesn’t fit his style, but I worked for a few years with an excellent trainer on scent training and various types of useful skills. We do something scent oriented almost every day. He also likes tracking. Both are activities he was bred to do. 

This discussion has been very interesting. It’s my observation if you have an easier dog that is food motivated, positive only works well. If you have high drive working or herding breed dogs, which tend to have inbred aggression to some degree, not so much. Owners should be free to use the tools they need to get the job done. If a large, strong dog is pulling the owner down the street and they can manage the dog with a prong collar, they should have the ability to make the decision to use one. Ecollars are most often used for distance work when a dog is too far away to hear a command. If those are taken away, some dogs will have to give up activities they love. In my experience, vets know more about health than training or nutrition. I would no more go to a vet for training advice than I would go to a trainer for health advice. It’s easy to say bad owners make out of control dogs, but the truth is most dog owners are pet owners. They aren’t experienced trainers and never had the opportunity to become one. We should not handicap pet owners by taking away tools, that if used properly can save a dog from a shelter or worse.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Alaska7133 said:


> I also occasionally field train with a couple of different vets. They both train with e-collars and pinch collars.


Field trainers that don't use e collars are about as common as hens teeth, successful ones are much harder to find.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I’ve been thinking on this thread, and I’m going to make some counter points to the Rally vs Obedience debate.

I’ve been to a fair amount of Rally trials and I don’t find it to be true that Rally fosters a better connection to the dogs. I have found that because of the way the rules are written and the nature of the sport, that it fosters begging and pleading more often than a true connection between dog and handler. There is less accountability in Rally. 

In contrast, I’ve found that Obedience fosters - even requires - a deeper connection between dog and handler since you cannot give instantaneous feedback. This is for the truly good teams. The ones that you can watch NQ and still be blown away by their performance. Not the 175 and done teams.

The best Rally teams I’ve seen have titled/trained through Utility before coming to Rally. There is not constant chatter from the handler, even though it’s allowed. The connection is deeper though and some truly do move through the courses like it’s a dance. It’s beautiful to watch. There are always exceptions to these observations of course, but I generally find this to be true.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

ArkansasGold said:


> I’ve been thinking on this thread, and I’m going to make some counter points to the Rally vs Obedience debate.
> 
> I’ve been to a fair amount of Rally trials and I don’t find it to be true that Rally fosters a better connection to the dogs. I have found that because of the way the rules are written and the nature of the sport, that it fosters begging and pleading more often than a true connection between dog and handler. There is less accountability in Rally.
> 
> ...


I’ve noticed people who prefer Rally just want to have fun with their dogs and do something closer to a sport. Obedience is fun but can be rigid and doesn’t have much room for creativity. I think of Rally as a sport. I don’t think one is better than the other or even comparable. Both require training and learning skills. Both require dogs to listen and perform.

I make two distinctions between training types. We are either teaching our dogs to do something or we are suppressing behaviors and teaching them not to do something they might want to do. If people can do more of the first as early as the dog is ready and capable, we would need less of the second. In general, though, people who are titling or doing sports are trying to get the most they can out of a dog based on their abilities. Pet owners who don’t understand dog behavior or don’t put in the time end up doing more suppression. Tools aren’t the issues, training owners is. It’s much more fun to teach new skills than to stop unwanted behavior. Learning is easier than unlearning.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

ArkansasGold said:


> I’ve been thinking on this thread, and I’m going to make some counter points to the Rally vs Obedience debate.
> 
> I’ve been to a fair amount of Rally trials and I don’t find it to be true that Rally fosters a better connection to the dogs. I have found that because of the way the rules are written and the nature of the sport, that it fosters begging and pleading more often than a true connection between dog and handler. There is less accountability in Rally.
> 
> ...


Personally I admire anyone who steps up to the line with their dog.

I have actually had dogs that might occasionally have a barely passing score in very distracting environments I did not adequately prepare them for go on to win HIT and/or HC awards with. 

I truly try to encourage every single person to applaud teams in the ring, they are there, they are with their dogs whether they are in the ribbons or not. 

We have no idea what the team has overcome to step up to that ring. 

175, good for them if that is the best effort they could do that day. If they don't have mentors or started with no clear idea of what they wanted their team to look do. 

If they consider rally a jumping off place (I confess to using rally thus as it is a good intro to ring procedures and I can support my dog through voice as needed both on & off leash), a sport for their older or injured dogs to still play or a sport in & of itself. Obedience & Rally are different. But they can compliment each other. And at least in my area, they frequently do.

BTW a 175 still means that team stepped into the ring that day ... and passed. And the team deserves praise.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

AmberSunrise said:


> Personally I admire anyone who steps up to the line with their dog.
> 
> I have actually had dogs that might occasionally have a barely passing score in very distracting environments I did not adequately prepare them for go on to win HIT and/or HC awards with.
> 
> ...


I think you took what I said a different way than I meant it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess this is where I am currently....

We have 2 "home" trials coming up. One closes mid September - which means I have gone ahead and signed up for a fun match at the one and will be bringing entries with to hand deliver to the secretary. The other one closes at the end of Sept, will probably bring my entries to class with me to hand deliver to my instructor who either is the secretary or will be able to get them over to the secretary.

I did class today with the one boy to make up my mind if he is ready for novice. The other boy, I'm not sure if he's ready even for BN... 

Ready means when I arrived at class today, I basically did everything like I would at a trial.

I warmed up my dog - and noted what kind of warm up he needed and how much time/space/work was required.

Then I watched how he enters the ring with me for heeling.

Setting up for stays and recalls, I paid attention to my dog's stays and soundness when staying (was he shifting or looking antsy, etc). And then for the recall, I had my hands down at my sides and did no guiding whatsoever as my dog came in and sat.

Stand for exams, I set up like I would at a trial and again made sure I gave my dog no extra cues or signals. I paid attention to his body language and stance, ensuring he looked calm and steady while locking into place.

The only weak area I noticed was finishes - with my dog circling me multiple times vs going around to heel position. My clue to work on finishes, but that's an easy and simple thing to fix in a month.

In this ways, I ensured that my dog is ready to compete - and hopefully do well.

If he does less than well - but still qualifies, I will be happy regardless.

Glee is a wild man - so requires a lot of warm up time and space. That's something that's not always a given that I'll have. 2 of the 3 places I'm entering my guys in obedience have very little space for warm up. With Glee, it may take 20-30 minutes of heeling to get him toned down enough to work.

His heeling is a dream... when he's toned down. He has a lot of drive and beautiful fluid movement when he goes. He's goes like the wind (and sometimes that's his undoing with him FORGING and taking flight with all feet off the ground), but has good focus and fast clean sits.

There are 80 points possible with the heeling portions of novice (100 if you are counting f8), and with Glee he has the potential of keeping all 80... or being my first dog to flunk heeling completely because he was out of control. 

Stands - Glee is still working on this - he is a golden and feels like he needs to look up and acknowledge a judge with a little wiggling and waggling.

Stays - are usually solid, except I discovered 3-4 weeks ago that he did not know how to go "Down" in heel position with me signaling him to go down. Whenever I tell him to go down in practice, I apparently have been doing it from the front. We had to do "hurry up teaching new command" when this happened in class - and after a few reps he got it, but he's still unsure because it is new.

I also have a small issue with the leash, since I have always practiced stays off leash. With the leash and whatever he does with his front legs, have had it get tangled up with the downs.

One of the other people in class today is an AKC judge and she said that if this happened at a trial, she'd instruct an exhibitor to untangle the leash without the dog changing position again - without taking any points. If the dog got up and had to be put back in a down, it would cost points but she wouldn't NQ. Other judges might, so it's definitely a training issue.

Sit stays are solid, so I'm not completely worried about his sit stay walk around the ring.

Recalls - typically are clean, but like his brother needs more work at a clean finish without excess guiding on my part.

All in all, Glee has more than one issue that needs work, so I'm aiming at entering him in BN with the option of keeping him out if I feel he will be too out of control. Since the heel pattern is on leash and is only one heel pattern vs TWO like regular novice, I think it will be less stressful this way.

*** What Maegan was hinting at or how I read her comment.... its people who enter dogs in rally without putting the time into training their dogs. A lot of the contemplation we all do prior to entering regular obedience may be lacking in many cases. There may be more impulse entries, etc. There's more people who bring their whole kennel to rally trials and each dog they take into the ring is sniffing the walls and floor while "heeling" (a foot behind) the owner. Those people do not train prior to entering trials. They may have all their dogs at a conformation show and throw them into rally as well to get "performance" titles on their dogs.

What makes Rally easy for people like that unfortunately affects other people who actually do work for those 95-100 scores with lots of training before hand.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Megora said:


> I guess this is where I am currently....
> 
> We have 2 "home" trials coming up. One closes mid September - which means I have gone ahead and signed up for a fun match at the one and will be bringing entries with to hand deliver to the secretary. The other one closes at the end of Sept, will probably bring my entries to class with me to hand deliver to my instructor who either is the secretary or will be able to get them over to the secretary.
> 
> ...


What you may wish to consider is a quick, "you're going into the ring routine". You may not need it, but I was very happy for the trained 'going into the ring' setup. I have trained my dogs the following

-Enter the area around the ring
-A spin, a circle, Fig 8 through the legs, quick front and high hand touch and head into the ring.
-For Open & beyond, leash removal is added to the above

It may not be ideal, but it is consistent enough to get our heads in the game.

I do prefer a more thorough warmup but the dogs are conditioned to the above so it works in a pinch to warm up their body & the mind.

This came in very useful at the 1 trial I have been to post Covid where only the competing dog was allowed in the building. Each team was escorted in & out and we basically had no acclimation time and ring invite was as soon as the judge raised her head from her score book. There was no place to warm up beyond the routine above inside the building.

BTW: Aedan missed every sit on finishes except his last one at the broad jump .... 3 point dings add up quick but yeppers, I gladly took that 3rd place & Q. I think I calculated it was his first time in the ring in like 28 months (rule changes requiring retraining and of course Covid, plus we don't really have that many trials around here with nice flooring for jumping). He did finish but no sitting so 3 points each rather than 5 for no finishes .

I was very taken aback with how the cones were crowded against the ring gates in a corner with barely enough room for a handler & golden sized dog (a GSD was excused at this point, not sure what happened since noone other than judge & ring crew were allowed with the team competing, at least 1 B team (OTCh team) was also in trouble with this setup and I think took a 'fix n go' ) to get through. Tightly crowded on 3 sides given where the judge was standing as well. Aedan switched to right side heeling for about 2 feet (another 5 point ding I believe since other than that his heeling was spot on) - luckily he knows hand signals so after the halt I signaled with my left arm and he returned to proper heel .... something I was unprepared for, so thought I might mention it as something to practice. We did set this up at my next obedience class and it may be going into the training rotation as the judge is a popular one around here.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm not sure what I'll do for Glee. 

For conformation, I jog him around to take the edge off before we go into the ring. 

Obedience he's very happy and excited to work - and a little wild until we've done a lot of pacing back and forth and back and forth and back and forth until he's more contained. I also really make the "space bubble" around him super big during that time because he's the typical golden whose head spins around looking at everyone and everything when he arrives.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> *** What Maegan was hinting at or how I read her comment.... its people who enter dogs in rally without putting the time into training their dogs.


Yes.

Rally was the gateway into the Dog World for me and nothing will replace the bond I built with my dog and the fun I had doing it, but I will be competing in Obedience first for the foreseeable future.


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