# e-collar… Setup and Conditioning



## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Before fully implementing an e-collar into my 6 m.o. male’s training I’d like to get some opinions on the actual setup I’ve purchased and some input on a couple of questions about the conditioning process. So, for those of you that are using, or sometimes use, an e collar…

Along with purchasing the Educator EZ-900 I also bought the Comfort Pad for long haired dogs, in hopes of making the collar as physically comfortable for Clooney to wear. But after examining the prongs on the Comfort Pad they seemed to be a bit short for long hair and because the 4 prongs were placed so close together and were rather wide at the tip, I questioned how good of contact they would make, and also if the contact would be consistent. So I used the 3/4” contacts that came with the receiver instead of using the nuts provide with the pad. (See pic) I pushed this very hard against my forearm and felt no pain even there was enough pressure to leave indentions on my arm for a couple of minutes. 
- Does anybody see anything wrong with this setup? Comments?

Next…It’s very important to me to get solid, consistent contact so as to avoid any ambiguity about my dog having received a stim. And in reading about this I came across a mention of a Plus setup, which was simply using 2 receivers. If one isn’t making contact because of a positioning issue then it is likely the oppisite side is experiencing the opposite effect and will generate the stim. Also the collar is balanced and less likely to shift. So I bought a second transmitter and a second comfort pad. 
- Comments?

Lastly, I’ve introduced Clooney to the collar and have been very careful in determining the working level. Working only with ‘Come’ and ‘Sit’ he is responding very well to the collar. Noticeably faster responses and if anything he seems to be having a happier time. But before truly instituting the collar I have a couple of questions.

I‘m assuming that the working level needs to be checked periodically. I say this because between sessions I have had initial stim responses ranging from as low as 10 to as high as 22. It had been 16 -> 22 but today when I started at 16 Clooney’s response involved a head shake that, although he immediately shrugged it off and complied, nonetheless made me wonder about the setting. After starting very low he gave a first response at 10, though that had to be increased to 12 rather quickly, so maybe I misread the 10. And this is all inside the house with zero distractions. So the questions are…

Do you also check the working level at the beginning of each session?
Do you check it periodically during a session to see if it can be lowered? (Raising it with distractions is expected.)


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Bumping up


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I don't have an Educator collar. The "comfort pad" is those 4 prongs in the middle? Get rid of them.
Everyone I know uses Garmin or Dogtra collars and nearly all use the longer prongs, and most have Labs. The collar needs to be very snug and just behind the ears. If it is loose it won't make contact and can move around cause chafing and sores. People sometimes think they are electrical "burns" from the collar, it won't and can't do that.



Zerpersande said:


> And in reading about this I came across a mention of a Plus setup, which was simply using 2 receivers. If one isn’t making contact because of a positioning issue then it is likely the opposite side is experiencing the opposite effect and will generate the stim.


You do not need two receivers on the dog.

A big part of training is reading your dog. This is very important when using an e collar as well.
What collar conditioning program are you following?


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I’ve never seen the comfort pads. Seems those would interfere with the functionality of the collar. 

Connie Cleveland has a good course for collar conditioning. I paid an experienced person to collar condition my dog, took lessons from her myself, and bought Connie Cleveland’s course.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

SRW said:


> Everyone I know uses Garmin or Dogtra collars and nearly all use the longer prongs, and most have Labs. The collar needs to be very snug and just behind the ears. If it is loose it won't make contact and can move around cause chafing and sores. People sometimes think they are electrical "burns" from the collar, it won't and can't do that.



Using the book by Larry Krohn.
I have a set of 1” prongs from my old Dogtra that I can use.
Currently there is a set of 3/4” prongs on the second receiver.
When I first tried the collar with 3/4” prongs it didn’t seem to consistently stim when he was laying down. With the dual receivers it seems to work every time.

I used an e collar with my previous Golden, but primarily when training him to be off leash. As before, my goal is to be able to go anywhere off leash. Sit, heel, stay and COME are all I need. I could do that without an e collar IF… You may have read a comment I wrote just today that addresses the ‘if’, that being if I had cooperation from my wife as to rules and boundaries.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Zerpersande said:


> Using the book by Larry Krohn.
> I have a set of 1” prongs from my old Dogtra that I can use.
> Currently there is a set of 3/4” prongs on the second receiver.
> When I first tried the collar with 3/4” prongs it didn’t seem to consistently stim when he was laying down. With the dual receivers it seems to work every time.
> ...


That does make it tougher. I scold my husband for such, but you could put your life in danger trying that with your wife. Lol


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> I’ve never seen the comfort pads. Seems those would interfere with the functionality of the collar.
> Connie Cleveland has a good course for collar conditioning.


I brush him before putting the collar on and then work the receiver and skin a bit too ensure contact. I seem to be getting much more consistent contact, regardless of posture, than I did with standard prongs. 

I searched for Connie Cleveland today and bookmarked some pages to read later.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> That does make it tougher. I scold my husband for such, but you could put your life in danger trying that with your wife. Lol


There are boundaries and limitations with my wife too, though admittedly ‘rules’ are bit too far. But she is beginning to come around. The scratches and bruises are getting to her. She grabbed him by the collar tonight and said ‘No’. The tide turns. She was trying to get him into his crate earlier today and Clooney was just chilling on the floor looking at her. So I walked over and said ‘Come’ and after a pause he got up and sauntered over. Told him to ‘Sit’ and got immediate compliance. Praised him, scratched his head and ‘Okay…House’ and he walked in. Teach by example.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> Connie Cleveland has a good course for collar conditioning.


I’ve found courses by Connie Cleveland that I might be interested in, but was unable to find the e collar course. Is it still available?


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Zerpersande said:


> I’ve found courses by Connie Cleveland that I might be interested in, but was unable to find the e collar course. Is it still available?


I looked also. You may have to be a member of obedience road to buy it. I will check for you on FB.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Zerpersande said:


> I’ve found courses by Connie Cleveland that I might be interested in, but was unable to find the e collar course. Is it still available?


Here you go:

Connie Cleveland E-collar Course


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> Here you go:
> Connie Cleveland E-collar Course


Thanks! I tried drilling down into the website but never found it. I’ll go check it out,


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> ….and bought Connie Cleveland’s course.


The Obedience Road course sounds like way more than what I plan to do. At the same time, I’d like to build sit/come/stay/down/heel/place into the frenzied game of off leash fun as seen here.




But I’m not at all interested in showing dogs.
But Connie does have a course for family dogs 6 months and older. 
Which do you have?


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I have Performance Puppy Primer and am a member of Obedience Road. Plus, the e-collar course. I was totally green to all of this and she’s been a great resource to have.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> I have Performance Puppy Primer and am a member of Obedience Road. Plus, the e-collar course. I was totally green to all of this and she’s been a great resource to have.


In addition to the e collar course I’m considering the ‘Teaching the Basics: Family Dog’ course. I had my last Golden to the level that I wanted but feel that I used COMMAND AND OBEY attitude that could be toned down several clicks. Of course once I got to the level of obedience to basic commands I was able to further shape the relationship to where we communicated with just ‘Psst’ and hand signals.

It’s much like a book for teachers that was suggested reading when I decided to get my teaching certificate in addition to my Chemistry degree. The book was called Don’t Smile Till Christmas. Which is easily summarized by just saying it’s easier back off than it is to gear up. The thing is, as with teaching, I was flying by the seat of my pants In the beginning. I’d like to have more of a flight plan on my journey with Clooney. And from when I first read Dune the line ‘A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct.’
(Ramble off)

What I’m trying to say is that I know I wasn’t perfect with Charlie but things turned out great. So I’m hopeful that with a basic plan Clooney and I will have at least as good of a trip. Any type of show activity is off the table. Competition is almost as certainly not going to happen. So I question the utility of joining Obedience Road. But it sounds like the Family Dog program might be very useful. Thoughts?

And thanks for your input thus far. Your comments have helped me understand my goals a bit more clearly.


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## Genevieve's mom (Mar 27, 2017)

Why use an e collar at all? Isn't positive training working for you and your Golden? How many classes have you taken him to? 

I guess I'm being judgmental but I just don't understand why anybody would use an e collar.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Genevieve's mom said:


> Why use an e collar at all?
> Isn't positive training working for you and your Golden?
> How many classes have you taken him to?
> I guess I'm being judgemental but I just don't understand why anybody would use an e collar.


Well, I did say ‘for those of you who are using, or sometimes use, an e collar’, so your guess about being judgmental is somewhat valid. But I’ll give some answers to your questions. However, let’s leave the topic alone after that, okay?

Isn’t positive training working? Yes and no. I’m making progress. But I’ve set boundaries about jumping up, nipping, pulling on clothes, etc. The wife, however, is following more of a Purely Positive approach where she doesn’t say no, ignores the biting, and deals with the pulling on the clothes, either hoping he’ll see thatks not the way to get attention or distracting him with treats. This has created somewhat of a good cop/bad cop situation and my dog is acting accordingly. Also the wife is losing patience. She’s starting to say ‘No’ but seems to have problems with Clooney taking her seriously. That and she really is hesitant about taking any advice about implementing commands that he DOES know. She’ll struggle getting him into the cage while luring him with treats. Clooney and I passed the luring stage a month or so ago. Sometimes I give him a treat after he goes in, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I show him a treat and tell him to get in. Regardless he knows the command ‘House’ and knows what is expected.

How many classes? About 8.

But those two questions are more or less irrelevant to the matter of why use an e collar at all. I want my dog to be an off leash dog. My city here in Japan has no leash law. My previous Golden was rarely on a leash. He ran next to my bicycle off leash. We went for walks off leash. There were a couple of other dogs that were on leashes that totally lost their freaking minds every single time we passed on opposite sides of the road. And Charlie might, just might, glance at them, otherwise he stayed tight to my side. And it’s my opinion that letting a dog know that you can ‘reach out and touch him’ from a distance or with no leash, goes a long way toward ensuring focus and recall.

Additionally, your question of why use an e collar at all could validly be responded to with ‘Why NOT use one?’ It’s a tool. Do you use a leash? Why use that? Do you use a clicker? Why use that? Do you use treats? Why use them? The e collar is simply a tool. 

I went to the expense of buying the newest type of e collar with blunt stimulation, which is to say it uses electrical stimulation just like the TENS (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation) units used in physical therapy. And when using it the first thing done is to find the stimulation level where the dog notices it. For reference, my unit goes up to 100. I put it on myself and first noticed a slight tingle, nothing really unpleasant, at 25. That was on my hand so I put it on my neck. There it was lower, seems about 20? My dog Is at 12.

Do you know the basics of how it works? After beginning sending a Tap-Tap-Tap I give a command, a command the Clooney already knows and has had success with. As soon as he turns toward me in the slightest to obey I stop the tapping and use the marker ‘Yes!’ When he gets to me he gets a treat. After only a few repetitions he not only is responding faster, IMO he looks more pleased than usual and comes with more bounce in his step.

So there you go. I answered your questions. To a reasonable degree. But since I took the time to answer, pkease give some thought to not trying to dissuade me on this. You have your dog, I have mine. Well, I have a new one. And my questions are designed solely to try to give Clooney even more freedom and happiness than I gave Charlie.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Zerpersande said:


> In addition to the e collar course I’m considering the ‘Teaching the Basics: Family Dog’ course. I had my last Golden to the level that I wanted but feel that I used COMMAND AND OBEY attitude that could be toned down several clicks. Of course once I got to the level of obedience to basic commands I was able to further shape the relationship to where we communicated with just ‘Psst’ and hand signals.
> 
> It’s much like a book for teachers that was suggested reading when I decided to get my teaching certificate in addition to my Chemistry degree. The book was called Don’t Smile Till Christmas. Which is easily summarized by just saying it’s easier back off than it is to gear up. The thing is, as with teaching, I was flying by the seat of my pants In the beginning. I’d like to have more of a flight plan on my journey with Clooney. And from when I first read Dune the line ‘A beginning is the time for taking the most delicate care that the balances are correct.’
> (Ramble off)
> ...


Glad I’ve been helpful.

I have not bought the Family Dog program, but yes I think it may be good for you. She is very easy to understand and pretty succinct. I didn’t do any kind of competition type training with my last Golden and he was lovely — smart as can be and a great family dog. You don’t need Obedience Road if you have no competition plans — it is $30 monthly. I enjoy it because I’m at the age where I can’t remember everything I’m told in class, so it helps to repeatedly look at and listen to videos to perfect what we are learning.

Just as an aside, Dune is my 31 year old son’s favorite book.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I wouldn't recommend an e-collar for basic training on a 6 month old puppy at all. I would find some balanced training programs and look into those. Or take a class. Your puppy just needs you to be firm and consistent. I have nothing against e-collars....I own one myself. I don't think they are needed for sit, down, stay, etc.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

DevWind said:


> I don't think they are needed for sit, down, stay, etc.


It’s not my plan to teach anything using the e collar. I plan to condition him to the collar using commands that he already knows. I’m introducing and conditioning him to the collar.

As for 6 m.o. being too young, from what I have read that is, as the Dogtra site states, ‘the typically standard prescribed 6 m.o. time frame’.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

I have always had field Goldens. Our trainers always introduce our dogs at 6 months to collar work. As you correctly said, you only use a collar to *reinforce commands that the pup has already mastered.* In field work they are especially important as you stretch out the distance of a mark, and the recall, by whistle at 150-250 yards + may need some help, especially if a distraction, like a rabbit pops out during a retrieve. 

As for the 'wife' issue, maybe that's what the second collar is for...SMILE!


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

3goldens2keep said:


> As for the 'wife' issue, maybe that's what the second collar is for...SMILE!


I agreed to give this one trainer a try. It’s a rather Purely Positive approach where I’m assured that the dog will be stunted for life if I say ‘No’ or don’t allow him to jump on me and bite me at will. The thrust is to just ignore him and he’ll stop, but he’ll also end up thinking humans are wonderful. Two lessons and it seems I still need to work on my ‘hand target’. That seems to be the basis of everything. It all flows from the hand target.
I’m currently wearing the second receiver under my belt against my skin. I start the lessons at my working level of 25 and tap the stim every time I am tempted to say what I think. Got the stim up to 85 today.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Zerpersande said:


> As for 6 m.o. being too young, from what I have read that is, as the Dogtra site states, ‘the typically standard prescribed 6 m.o. time frame’.


Could be even younger, it all depends on the dog.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Zerpersande said:


> It’s not my plan to teach anything using the e collar. I plan to condition him to the collar using commands that he already knows. I’m introducing and conditioning him to the collar.
> 
> As for 6 m.o. being too young, from what I have read that is, as the Dogtra site states, ‘the typically standard prescribed 6 m.o. time frame’.


That's cool. I had one of mine collar conditioned with the help of a professional. She was about 2. Soon after I had to give up the field training to care for my granddaughter. I know a lot of people do it much sooner than I did. I've never had the need to use it on the other one. I have considered selling the collar since I never use it.


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## Genevieve's mom (Mar 27, 2017)

A leash, a clicker, and treats don't inflict any pain whatsoever if used correctly. And sometimes I use a regular collar and sometimes I use a harness. Even though one instructor sold me a prong collar, I don't use it. I don't see a prong collar as "positive reinforcement". In my opinion, this 6 month old is still a puppy and positive training is still the best option. Personally, I hate getting a "shock" when I get out of our car and touch the metal door handle. And it isn't painful, but I still don't like it. It feels like "punishment" to me. Too bad dogs can't speak for themselves. Based on one of your posts, this kind of sounds to me like you and your wife are on different pages with training. I prefer using positive training methods. I do know a person who uses an e collar on his poodle and that dog is very, very submissive when that e collar is on him. He's a fun loving, enthusiastic dog when it isn't on him. I prefer the fun loving version over the submissive version. Just a personal preference. And as you say, it's your dog, not mine.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

G mom! 

Not everybody is successful using your methods. I cannot speak for you, but I have seen way too many out-of-control dogs that put themselves and others at risk who were, supposedly, clicker trained. I have seen folks with 'clickers' breaking their fingers clicking at the dogs as they jump up on kids and adults alike. Regardless of method, it is most important that you have control over the dog. It's not the clicker it is the trainer!

I have seen people beating their dog with a lead also, they can be misused as can an e collar, so don't use the e collar "submissive dog" story on us! Anyone can beat a dog down, it is not the e collar or the lead, it is the dog owner/ trainers. If you saw a beat down dog, blame the trainer, not the collar!

If you want to see a bunch of excited completely happy dogs, go to a hunt test or field trial! 1,000 of them around the country every year. 90%+ of these dogs were trained using e collars and none are submissive! So move on....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Genevieve's mom said:


> I do know a person who uses an e collar on his poodle and that dog is very, very submissive when that e collar is on him.


You know a person that is abusing a poodle.


Genevieve's mom said:


> I prefer the fun loving version over the submissive version.


I prefer to teach good behavior and awesome retriever stuff.


3goldens2keep said:


> 90%+ of these dogs were trained using e collars and none are submissive!


100% of the successful ones are trained using e collars (.0001% margin of error).


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

DevWind said:


> That's cool. I had one of mine collar conditioned with the help of a professional. She was about 2. Soon after I had to give up the field training to care for my granddaughter. I know a lot of people do it much sooner than I did. I've never had the need to use it on the other one. I have considered selling the collar since I never use it.


I’m making a real effort to implement the collar properly on Clooney. With my previous Golden, Charlie, I used a Dogtra 1900 series and I didn’t thoroughly investigate how to use it. Rather than condition and initially use only in conjunction with known commands I used it only to stop undesired behavior. It worked rather quickly, and the way I determined the level to use was rather close to the method currently recommended. But Charlie’s initial response to the collar was completely different to Clooney’s. Worked out okay though. I rarely put it on him after he was trained but would reintroduce it when he was showing any tendency not to listen. And I can see now that was probably due to not having used it for anything other than correcting undesirable behavior. 

Thing is, I truly believe the e collar use saved his life once. A cat sprung out from cover while we were walking in a small clearing/field one night. We were just off the road. The cat bolted across the road and Charlie reflexively went after it. I gave a strong, no joke, energy filled COME! command and Charlie spun immediately. Would the approaching car have hit him? Not assuredly, but it would have bern possible depending on driver attention, Charlie’s reaction to oncoming car, cat’s evasive tactics. But Charlie listened.

In an effort to ensure the best possible response to the collar I bought all new equipment, mainly because of the blunt stimulation technology in the Educator series. Also it has adjustable vibration and tone levels. Oddly enough Clooney seemed more ‘perplexed’ than alarmed by the stims while I was finding his working level. When I remembered the reduced tone/vibration modes I had set I then decided to try the vibration. THAT resulted in a much larger reaction and it was obvious that they vibration scared him. (Watch for a future post about possibly reducing the vibration/tone levels to their lowest setting and seeing if perhaps they can be used as a form of aversive conditioning?) But my point is I’m making every effort to introduce the collar properly. I bought a book by Larry Krohn and watched all his YouTube clips. I bought the e collar system by Connie Cleveland and am studying that now. I‘m using this forum with this post as a sounding board for what I’m doing and planning to do. 

But I appreciate your comments. Responding to these messages forces me to further think about the how and why of my intention to implement an e collar. And my decision to purchase the e colkarbprofram by Connie Cleveland is one change that has resulted from this thread.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I tried the vibrator on Logan once and decided definitely not. A lower level stimulation is something he notices and I can see he does, but it’s not a startle reaction. It’s slight. The vibrator function is stronger, IMO.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Genevieve's mom said:


> Personally, I hate getting a "shock" when I get out of our car and touch the metal door handle. And it isn't painful, but I still don't like it. It feels like "punishment" to me.
> …this kind of sounds to me like you and your wife are on different pages with training.





> Personally, I hate getting a "shock" when I get out of our car and touch the metal door handle. And it isn't painful, but I still don't like it. It feels like "punishment" to me.


No, the shock isn’t painful. And the collar I use makes the stim like that of a TENS unit in a physical therapy unit turned so low as to just be noticeable. It’s definitely not painful. In fact, I did a short conditioning session with Clooney a couple of days ago. After putting the collar on him he just laid back down. I waited a couple of minutes and starting at 5, which he never responded to, I started increasing the level. When I got to 12, his ear twitched. He didn’t get up, he didn’t jump or look surprised, his ear twitched. That’s the level we worked with that day. So, no, a static shock isn’t painful. Neither is the working level of and collar. My last Golden, Charlie, I didn’t use the proper the technique but the level was never excessive. When he saw the collar come out he wasn’t scared. He would walk over when I held it down and get into position for me to put it on. With that happy Golden Retriever panting. He knew the deal with that collar. And that meant he had no fear.

As for punishment, were you ever punished for unacceptable behavior as a child? Did your parents give you some cake to distract you from geating on your little brother? Did they use a toy you really liked to get you to stop pounding on the bathroom sink with a hammer?

Have you EVER had an e collar put on you and experienced firsthand what the working stim level feels like? I have. On both my hand and neck. And you know what? I’d much rather feel that than a static electricity pop.



> …this kind of sounds to me like you and your wife are on different pages with training.


Yep. And she didn’t want a new dog. I knew she didn’t want a new dog. So the ‘Agree to disagree’ adage was unilaterally invoked and she came home to Clooney. My dog. You referenced that, right? My dog. But I am going to classes with her. I also get to see her progress With implementation of the techniques, most especially the one where you don’t say ‘No’. I don’t say ‘No’ usually but instead say ‘Anh anh’. Strongly with a frown on my face. She hasn’t done that. And I see her progress in torn clothes, and scratches and bruises on her arms and legs. 

Myself, I bought a grooming hammock and used a nail grinder on his nails. Used treats to calm him, took my time. FAR too fast for the wife. But he will now pretty much just relax through the whole process as long as it doesn’t take too long. And he will let me finish up with an emery board while he is resting. actually puttingga final shape on the nails. The wife? She wanted the emery board while she was on the floor petting him. I gave it to her. She was cooing to him, barely touching his nails with the board, basically doing what needs to be done to introduce him to the process. Jesus, he has let me do a couple of nails with the grinder while he was on the floor. So I told her that she could actually do some good with that board if she wanted to, that Clooney was used it it. Nope, gotta’ condition him first. So I pushed the button on the e collar. You see, I keep my second e collar receiver under my belt against my skin. I press the button when I get the urge to say what I think. I’ve learned that telling the truth or pointing out the reality of a situation is a sure-fire way of upsetting people off. (That last apparent mistake wasn’t a mistake.)


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> I tried the vibrator on Logan once and decided definitely not. A lower level stimulation is something he notices and I can see he does, but it’s not a startle reaction. It’s slight. The vibrator function is stronger.


My EZ-900 has adjustable tone/vibration but you have to hook it up to the computer to change it. I changed them from the max to a middle value but I’m going to set them at the lowest and see what happens. But yes, ‘startle’ is the perfect word. The e collar wad more of a ‘perplexed’ response at first.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

3goldens2keep said:


> Not everybody is successful using your methods. I cannot speak for you, but I have seen way too many out-of-control dogs that put themselves and others at risk who were, supposedly, clicker trained.


This echoes what I have seen/read on YouTube and the internet from detractors of the purely positive method. I won’t say that the method won’t work, but it is my opinion that the purely positive method is just as prone to misuse, and likely far more so. Opinion again, but people find that the methods used by the purely positive camp align with how they already THINK a dog should be treated. If you fail to properly train a dog, with any method, you’re going to have an out of control dog. With purely positive owners can use the methods without getting the results and think they are succeeding.

I’ve got a wife whose sole experience with family pets was a dog on a chain outside their back door that they took for a walk at times and fed. They did let it sleep inside the rear entrance area during winter. I ended up going out there and pouring concrete over the urine soaked section of earth to make the area a bit more humane. That’s her extent of dog training. And now she lectures me about the proper way to deal with puppies because she has found a method that aligns with her idealistic view of raising a dog?

I’ve told her directly, in fact last night…I agreed to take Clooney to some lessons but I stated up front I am not committing to implementing anything I don’t agree with. But she8s currently miffed that I won’t take the clicker to heart. I’ve explained, I train and work with Clooney as the opportunities arise. I always have my voice, and ready to use immediately. I explained that some very well-known trainers, purely positive included, use the ‘Yes!’ marker. She counters that I should use it when I can. I called that and raised her with the fact that using two different markers for the same purpose will detract from the utility of both. She responded by picking up the clicker and working with Clooney on brushing his teeth. Touch his mouth, he let’s her do it, she clicks, gives a treat and spouts off some motherly coochie-coochie in Japanese. Me? I told her rhat I had already brushed Clooney’s teeth. He likes the chicken flavored toothpaste.

Rant over


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Zerpersande said:


> This echoes what I have seen/read on YouTube and the internet from detractors of the purely positive method. I won’t say that the method won’t work, but it is my opinion that the purely positive method is just as prone to misuse, and likely far more so. Opinion again, but people find that the methods used by the purely positive camp align with how they already THINK a dog should be treated. If you fail to properly train a dog, with any method, you’re going to have an out of control dog. With purely positive owners can use the methods without getting the results and think they are succeeding.
> 
> I’ve got a wife whose sole experience with family pets was a dog on a chain outside their back door that they took for a walk at times and fed. They did let it sleep inside the rear entrance area during winter. I ended up going out there and pouring concrete over the urine soaked section of earth to make the area a bit more humane. That’s her extent of dog training. And now she lectures me about the proper way to deal with puppies because she has found a method that aligns with her idealistic view of raising a dog?
> 
> ...


Some people really love a clicker. I have preferred using a marker word. It’s probably more about me than the clicker. I could never get the timing quite right and I don’t always have a clicker with me. 

I just start teeth brushing when they are puppies — with my fingers and then a brush. Same thing with a hair dryer. Get them used to it young and gradually. Mine also are in love with the poultry flavored toothpaste. I put it on my toothbrush by accident once and realized it before I put it in my mouth. I feel sure that would have been gag worthy disgusting. Lol


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Genevieve's mom said:


> A leash, a clicker, and treats don't inflict any pain whatsoever if used correctly. And sometimes I use a regular collar and sometimes I use a harness. Even though one instructor sold me a prong collar, I don't use it. I don't see a prong collar as "positive reinforcement". In my opinion, this 6 month old is still a puppy and positive training is still the best option. Personally, I hate getting a "shock" when I get out of our car and touch the metal door handle. And it isn't painful, but I still don't like it. It feels like "punishment" to me. Too bad dogs can't speak for themselves. Based on one of your posts, this kind of sounds to me like you and your wife are on different pages with training. I prefer using positive training methods. I do know a person who uses an e collar on his poodle and that dog is very, very submissive when that e collar is on him. He's a fun loving, enthusiastic dog when it isn't on him. I prefer the fun loving version over the submissive version. Just a personal preference. And as you say, it's your dog, not mine.


There are other just as effective ways to train. I’m competing with Pilot in Utility and he’s never experienced a clicker. It wouldn’t mean anything to him. Prong collars are very useful tools for some dogs. They aren’t medieval torture devices. An e-collar used properly does not ”shock“ a dog. I have tried one on myself. It’s not the same as static electricity. It’s like a TENS unit. If they are frying the dog, they aren’t doing it right.

Would I put one on my 6 month old puppy? It would depend on the puppy and what Im training. chances are, I wouldn’t. I don’t have this puppy though!

I consider myself to be a balanced trainer.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> I could never get the timing quite right and I don’t always have a clicker with me.
> 
> I just start teeth brushing when they are puppies — with my fingers and then a brush.


There have been benefits toward my commitment to improve my training techniques, and one biggy is praise. My previous Golden was trained to retrieve by my(wife’s) current trainer. And she encouraged me then to be more enthusiastic with my praise. I knew nothing about markers. So there’s a plus. But for me, using a clicker as you say, I don’t always have it and the timing is often off. My voice is something I have used all my life. I just have to remember to use it.

Clooney will sit while I brush his teeth. He moves quite a bit. Kinda’ as if he’s in a battle with himself over finger in the mouth versus wanting more chicken juice. But he sticks around till I finish.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> Connie Cleveland has a good course for collar conditioning. I paid an experienced person to collar condition my dog, took lessons from her myself, and bought Connie Cleveland’s course.


I bought the e collar course. After reading and watching the clips in the first few modules I decided to stop the e collar training for just a while. There are some slightly different techniques that really make sense so I’m going to go through the entire course and make sure I have a good feel overall for the course. It’s not that it is vastly different from what is outlined in Larry Krohn’s book, but I want to make sure that I understand what I’m going to do with the process overall.

So thanks in pointing me in this direction. Someone else mentioned this series and I went through the comments so I could thank them too, but maybe it was in a totally different post. Both Cloobeyvand myself thank all of you.


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## Genevieve's mom (Mar 27, 2017)

diane0905 said:


> Some people really love a clicker. I have preferred using a marker word. It’s probably more about me than the clicker. I could never get the timing quite right and I don’t always have a clicker with me.
> 
> I just start teeth brushing when they are puppies — with my fingers and then a brush. Same thing with a hair dryer. Get them used to it young and gradually. Mine also are in love with the poultry flavored toothpaste. I put it on my toothbrush by accident once and realized it before I put it in my mouth. I feel sure that would have been gag worthy disgusting. Lol


In one class I took the instructer suggested using a clicker. I tried it for a while and I can see where it's at least a consistent sound. I use the marker word "yes" but it's really hard to always say it in the same tone of voice. I guess that is why some people really like the clicker - it always sounds the same. Less confusing for the dog.

I'm doing okay with brushing our puppy's teeth and my almost 5 year old girl is pretty good about the toothbrush but it's taken a really long time to get her used to it. One thing that I have never accomplished is using a nail grinder. I bought a really quiet one but still neither girl wants me to do the grinding. They are both good with having their paws touched. I guess I need to start slowly and use lots of bits of chicken and string cheese. I'll keep trying.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Genevieve's mom said:


> In one class I took the instructer suggested using a clicker. I tried it for a while and I can see where it's at least a consistent sound. I use the marker word "yes" but it's really hard to always say it in the same tone of voice. I guess that is why some people really like the clicker - it always sounds the same. Less confusing for the dog.
> 
> I'm doing okay with brushing our puppy's teeth and my almost 5 year old girl is pretty good about the toothbrush but it's taken a really long time to get her used to it. One thing that I have never accomplished is using a nail grinder. I bought a really quiet one but still neither girl wants me to do the grinding. They are both good with having their paws touched. I guess I need to start slowly and use lots of bits of chicken and string cheese. I'll keep trying.


I‘m just too uncoordinated. My timing was always off. Many people love using clickers!

I have not tried a dremel yet. I use clippers. My dog supply arsenal is getting to be a bit much. Lol


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Genevieve's mom said:


> One thing that I have never accomplished is using a nail grinder. I bought a really quiet one but still neither girl wants me to do the grinding.


I bought a groomer’s hammock. Since hoisting a dog up seems unnatural I expected to have to condition Clooney to the hammock first. Nope, took it out of the box slipped it on him, picked it up by the straps and he pretty much immediately relaxed. He even let me get started on a nail or two before he got antsy. I let him down and later took the wife out with me. Stroking and an occasional treat had him relaxing to the point I was able to get all his nails but the dew claws pretty much done. He’s gotten better to the point that the last time I got fully through all his nails with just my comfort and an occasional treat.

He’ll let me use an emery board to put the final touches on the nails, but I think over time that we’ll get it all done in the hammock. I’ve tried the grinder on the floor by myself and gotten maybe 2 nails. Going to get the wife involved there, too. The goal is to eliminate the hammock totally.

(This pic is of a hammock I returned because it was a bit too small.)


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## Genevieve's mom (Mar 27, 2017)

Clooney is a very cute puppy! I had never heard of a grooming hammock so I'm glad you mentioned it. Sounds like he adapted to it very quickly!! Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Genevieve's mom said:


> Clooney is a very cute puppy! I had never heard of a grooming hammock so I'm glad you mentioned it. Sounds like he adapted to it very quickly!! Thanks for the suggestion.


Clooney has grown quite a bit over the last month.(See pic) I knew that I ‘was gonna’ need a bigger hammock’, so I ordered one from US Amazon. More of a nylon mesh. And cheap.The hardest thing about the hammocks is a secure place to hang it. I’m using a shelter I built for my grill. And I bought some ratchet-pulleys to make hoisting him smoothly into a one person job.


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