# Reputable breeders of English cream in GA



## LusaGA (Jan 1, 2013)

We are looking to buy an English cream. I have owned goldens all my life. I am new to Ga and would greatly appreciate any information on reputable breeders.


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## ally1h (Nov 27, 2012)

I can't say for GA. But if you are looking for a reputable breeder of English creams, I have been incredibly happy with my breeder here, in Alaska. Not even remotely close to you, but she does ship and she does have a litter planned for the beginning of the new year. If you are interested this is her website: http://www.alaskasretrievers.com/

As I said, working with her has been a wonderful experience and I plan to go to her for puppy #2 when I have a larger house in a couple years. I recommend her in a heart beat.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

English Creme/Cream can be a loaded term. It is actually a marketing ploy term usually used by unscrupulous breeders. The good news is that there are a few reputable breeders (when compared to the overwhelm number of "greeders")who do have dogs that are English or European style. This means they more closely conform to the UK standard as aposed to the GRCA (US) standard. These reputable breeders of English style dogs may have colors ranging from very light to dark gold. They however do not usually tout the color of their dogs as a selling point since structure, temperament, health and trainability are the focus of their program not the color. 

In general, please be very cautious of any breeder using this term. Any breeder using any variation that includes white, platinum, silver, or ultra light is a red flag to steer clear of. Also, anyone who is stating that these dogs are more mellow, have less cancer, or are healthier is either horribly misinformed or misleading you.

Now on to the good stuff. :wave:What do you want in your golden? What do you want to do with your golden? Have you read the stickies in the choosing a puppy area? If not please do, it is some great info including a great article on English style goldens.

In your search, remember to verify the clearences on any potential puppies parents. The should have the core four: Eyes done annually, Hips, Elbows, and _cardiologist_ Heart. Hips and Elbows tend to be the easiest to verify online. With English style goldens this can get a little more challenging if dogs are from several foreign countries, then there are going to be different hip/elbow rating systems in place. 

If you have your heart set on a very light golden of English or European parentage, here is a site you can start with. English Goldens in North America - Breeders

It seems to me that Onterio is a kind of hub for this style. The Candian standard although it does have a preference for light colored dogs, it does not penalize them like the US standard does. So, quite a few breeders up there are very successful in the show ring, where their US counter parts are not normally competitive.

If you do final a breeder or parents of potential pups, you can post them and the forum can double check your research.


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## DogsRule1234567 (Sep 5, 2012)

ally1h said:


> I can't say for GA. But if you are looking for a reputable breeder of English creams, I have been incredibly happy with my breeder here, in Alaska. Not even remotely close to you, but she does ship and she does have a litter planned for the beginning of the new year. If you are interested this is her website: Alaska's Retrievers - Premium English Golden Retrievers
> 
> As I said, working with her has been a wonderful experience and I plan to go to her for puppy #2 when I have a larger house in a couple years. I recommend her in a heart beat.
> 
> ...


Alli1, have you had a chance to go to the house and look at the dogs and where they live (etc.) by chance?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

ally1h said:


> I can't say for GA. But if you are looking for a reputable breeder of English creams, I have been incredibly happy with my breeder here, in Alaska. Not even remotely close to you, but she does ship and she does have a litter planned for the beginning of the new year. If you are interested this is her website: Alaska's Retrievers - Premium English Golden Retrievers
> 
> As I said, working with her has been a wonderful experience and I plan to go to her for puppy #2 when I have a larger house in a couple years. I recommend her in a heart beat.
> 
> ...


I'd make sure you do further research on this breeder, I see evidence of underage breeding and some pedigrees tied to White Dove which do a search on this forum about that kennel. Website speaks of using OFA, but not all dogs are OFA cleared, seems to be a mix of penhip, OFA and BVA. If you're going to say you do something, then do it. I would also want to know how many dogs they actually have, website mentions 5, but K9 data has them owning more, exactly how big is their breeding program?


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## DogsRule1234567 (Sep 5, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> I'd make sure you do further research on this breeder, I see evidence of underage breeding and some pedigrees tied to White Dove which do a search on this forum about that kennel. Website speaks of using OFA, but not all dogs are OFA cleared, seems to be a mix of penhip, OFA and BVA. If you're going to say you do something, then do it. I would also want to know how many dogs they actually have, website mentions 5, but K9 data has them owning more, exactly how big is their breeding program?


It's so hard to decipher through breeders sometimes!  I'm so thankful for this forum in that sense. Ally: that is not to say that you don't have a gorgeous dog because from looking at the website, they are beautiful.


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## DogsRule1234567 (Sep 5, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> I'd make sure you do further research on this breeder, I see evidence of underage breeding and some pedigrees tied to White Dove which do a search on this forum about that kennel. Website speaks of using OFA, but not all dogs are OFA cleared, seems to be a mix of penhip, OFA and BVA. If you're going to say you do something, then do it. I would also want to know how many dogs they actually have, website mentions 5, but K9 data has them owning more, exactly how big is their breeding program?


When you looked on K9 data what did you type in the search for? I tried alaskasretrievers (also with a space) and no results were found.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

You need to search by breeder and then again by owner--April Fulker. That was just a quick review, anyone pursuing this breeder needs to make contact with the breeder and address any concerns. I personally, would be pursuing a breeder that I could reasonably go visit to meet the breeder in person and his/her goldens.


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## DogsRule1234567 (Sep 5, 2012)

Thank you...that really helps! And I totally agree.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

If English cream, cream, white ultra light, platinum, silver raise red flags - could some of the experts on this website please advise what is the CORRECT terminology that you would like applied? 

I have no clue what to call my puppy anymore just so I will not raise the so called red flags. Frankly she is all of the above. Her coat is white and in the sun or light she shines just like silver and platinum. She is creme and ultra light on her back and her ears. 

I did my homework and knew way ahead of time what I was getting - most people have no clue what an English Golden is - go to Petco and ask. Simple as that. I had to convince my DH that our next dog will either be a British Retriever (as I call them) or a Pyrenees. As a full blooded American he was just like you guys, totally reluctant; until he met her. And to be honest none of his previous American Goldens could compare to my Rose Bud and as much as he hates it he has admitted to it many and many times.

Don't get me wrong, the last pure American golden, Trooper, I only spent his last four years with him and I loved him and formed a bond with him to the point that I could not go to the bathroom without him coming with me. I had to be careful how much I moved around so he will not come after me with his poor old legs, had to be careful where and how long I gardened so he will always be in the shade and then back inside.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Well a technical answer is... if she is registered with AKC she is a golden retriever. If she is registered with the CKC she is a golden retriever. If she is registered with the KC she is a golden retriever.

The posters are just trying to help this person navigate the path to finding a reputable breeder. Which can be very difficult especially when looking for a "popularized" color or breed. Any time there is a boost in popularity or demand, there is an increase in folks not doing things well and looking to make a buck. Think Bethoven and Saint Bernards or Taco Bell/Paris Hilton and Chihuahuas.

I really don't think the poster wants this thread to turn into an argument over a personal preference in style. Although if you do want to see my opinion I actually started a thread on this here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...breed-dividing-labels-new-name-my-golden.html


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

There are many reputable breeders of English Style dogs in the United States... the website that was linked is a good place to start. There seem to be more of us on the East Coast to look at. The Canadian standard DOES NOT have a preference toward lighter dogs but it does not penalize them the way that the US standard does... on the West coast of Canada it is difficult to finish a lighter dog ... on the East Coast which is a bit more European in attitude, ie. Montreal, the lighter colored dogs are more common... 

the key is to do your homework regarding this type, it is easy to get taken advantage of... stay away from the marketing words... make sure all clearances are in place regardless of who you go to or what kind of golden retriever you get... they are all golden retrievers.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I talked to a woman who breeds "English Cremes" early on in my search for breeders. I stumbled across her website by accident, and called her. She seemed nice enough, but I could not get her off the phone. 20 minutes into our conversation, she was urging me to send her a deposit due to the "high demand" for her puppies. To top it off, she wouldn't even let me come and visit her facility. 

See how many red flags you can find on this website: MN ENGLISH GOLDEN

Coincidentally, a family from my son's Webelo pack got a puppy from them around the same time we got Bella. They brought him over to play when they were both about 10-11 weeks. Looking at the two puppies side by side....let me just say I'm glad I never got my puppy from that breeder. They encountered a few issues early on, but I won't get in to that here. Regardless of the issues, they're still convinced that their puppy is superior due to it's extremely light color. I just keep my mouth shut when she goes on and on about it.

The bottom line is that they were breeding exclusively for color. The woman told me they have "European Cremes," which have a little more color, and "Full English Cremes," which are almost pure white, and come with a higher price tag. If a breeder's website advertises "Full English Creme" I would run away.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

My first red flag is the fact that she did not invite you to see her place and her dogs before she asked for the deposit. Second red flag is the deposit on a puppy you have not even seen yet. Let me guess it was also non-refundable! 

To the OP - IMHO, gove yourself time to learn the new surroundings you just moved to, try to stay local when purchasing a puppy and get to know the breeder thru visits. Make a decision only when you feel comfortable with the person and see their care and breeding practices.
After all, you are looking to add a new family member.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> My first red flag is the fact that she did not invite you to see her place and her dogs before she asked for the deposit. Second red flag is the deposit on a puppy you have not even seen yet. Let me guess it was also non-refundable!
> 
> To the OP - IMHO, gove yourself time to learn the new surroundings you just moved to, try to stay local when purchasing a puppy and get to know the breeder thru visits. Make a decision only when you feel comfortable with the person and see their care and breeding practices.
> After all, you are looking to add a new family member.


I actually asked if I could stop by. She said she doesn't allow visitors, because she spends all her time with the puppies. 

She was in pure sales mode on the phone. She bragged on and on about her dogs, tried to convince me that she spent $20,000 for a stud dog from Europe, told me she has people all over the country wanting her dogs....on and on and on. They're clearly doing it for the money. 

If I were to detail every red flag, it would make for a very long post. 




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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Also, the fact that she was willing to sell us a puppy without meeting US is a red flag, as far as I'm concerned. 


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Shalva, thanks fo catching my typo.:dblthumb2 Wish I could go back and edit. Thought I had the "does not" in that sentence. Going back I know I just got typing to quick and the intent of a "not" was there.

So here is how I ment it to read:
The Candian standard although it does _not_ have a preference for light colored dogs, it does not penalize them like the US standard does.

Thanks for always adding great perspective to conversations when they range into the "English Creme" realm. You are always doing a great job of educating on this topic. Though I know it must be tiresome, you alway offer great advice/information for those who need it when it comes to Golden Retrievers of the English persuasion.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> My first red flag is the fact that she did not invite you to see her place and her dogs before she asked for the deposit. Second red flag is the deposit on a puppy you have not even seen yet. Let me guess it was also non-refundable!
> 
> To the OP - IMHO, gove yourself time to learn the new surroundings you just moved to, try to stay local when purchasing a puppy and get to know the breeder thru visits. Make a decision only when you feel comfortable with the person and see their care and breeding practices.
> After all, you are looking to add a new family member.


Keep in mind that many of us buy puppies sight unseen. I personally have sent a deposit and gotten a puppy from a breeder who I had never personally met and for a dog that I had not seen. That is not uncommon in the dog world especially for those of us who compete and show. That is NOT a red flag...but it does require knowledge of the players in the dog world, knowledge of the pedigrees, talking to other folks in the area of the breeder etc etc.... but buying a puppy sight unseen or sending a deposit is not uncommon ... actually now thinking about it I have done this twice... once with one of my flat coats and more recently with the young golden we got from Portugal.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

LJack said:


> Shalva, thanks fo catching my typo.:dblthumb2 Wish I could go back and edit. Thought I had the "does not" in that sentence. Going back I know I just got typing to quick and the intent of a "not" was there.
> 
> So here is how I ment it to read:
> The Candian standard although it does _not_ have a preference for light colored dogs, it does not penalize them like the US standard does.
> ...


Thanks, I do try to jump in on these threads. I think we all have preferences as to what we like for color or size or coat or whatever and unfortunately our english dogs have gotten to be quite a fad here in the states... The reality is that it is a trend in the UK as well. If we look at American style dogs through the years we see changes in head shape, color, overall type as the style changes... the same is true for the UK dogs and while many of them are cream in color or very light gold now, if we look at the UK dogs through history we see the same changes as we see in the American dogs, coat color, head shape, size etc all changes throughout the years. It is true of any breed for an assortment of reasons. 

Personally I am not a fan of cream although I have two cream colored dogs here (they are registered as light gold) I do prefer color and as such I am breeding Connie who is a cream/light gold dog to an English dog who does have quite a bit of color but color is honestly the least of my worries as long as they are in the golden spectrum...

There are many falsehoods about English style dogs (and I use that term loosely because many are from other places in europe but still use the term english style) most of them do go back to UK dogs in the recent pedigree even if they are registered as from Portugal such as my boy is. There are good breeders in Hungary and Romania, Russia and other places in Eastern Europe that are trying to do it right, but there are many that aren't. English style dogs are no different than American Goldens in that there are good breeders and bad breeders and it is up to the puppy person to weed them out. They should be looking for the same things in English dogs that they are in American dogs while recognizing that there are some differences. 

1. Hips are scored differently 
2. UK breeders and European breeders don't do heart clearances as a general rule so don't expect to find generations of heart clearances. They simply don't have the heart issues that we have here BUT they are considering adding it to required clearances. However, a dog living here in the US, the parents should be heart cleared.
3. Elbows should be done 
4. Ichthyosis and all PRA's should be done.... 
5. Eyes like every other dog 

so look for hips, elbows, heart, genetics and eyes for the dogs living in the US... if you are importing then there are differences.

they do get cancer... they don't live any longer... check the lines for longevity... and if you need help ask around. there is nothing wrong with wanting a light colored golden .... it is a preference and we can help you find a good breeder of that style. 

What is annoying to me is when folks on this board make general statements about all breeders of English style dogs and when they disregard someones preference for an english style dog as unimportant or vanity.... not all of us are like that ... in the same way as some prefer red, or medium gold or whatever some prefer english style and that should be acknowledged and they should be helped to find what they are looking for... while the myths are dispelled at the same time.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Shalva said:


> Keep in mind that many of us buy puppies sight unseen. I personally have sent a deposit and gotten a puppy from a breeder who I had never personally met and for a dog that I had not seen. That is not uncommon in the dog world especially for those of us who compete and show. That is NOT a red flag...but it does require knowledge of the players in the dog world, knowledge of the pedigrees, talking to other folks in the area of the breeder etc etc.... but buying a puppy sight unseen or sending a deposit is not uncommon ... actually now thinking about it I have done this twice... once with one of my flat coats and more recently with the young golden we got from Portugal.


We got burned getting our dog from a breeder we haven't met. Maybe we would have been in the same situation even if we met the breeder. Trooper came from a reputable breeder with great pedigree. The poor sweet thing had seizures, starting with petite mal seizures at 4 to grand mal seizures at 6 thru almost the age of 13. My DH is blaming himself to this day for having him shipped to him via airplane - somehow he thinks that it is to blame that for his seizures. 
One of these days I will pull his paperwork from the filing cabinet. The bond I developed with him made me fall in love with the breed.


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## Billabong (Jan 1, 2013)

Claudia M said:


> If English cream, cream, white ultra light, platinum, silver raise red flags - could some of the experts on this website please advise what is the CORRECT terminology that you would like applied?
> 
> I have no clue what to call my puppy anymore just so I will not raise the so called red flags. Frankly she is all of the above. Her coat is white and in the sun or light she shines just like silver and platinum. She is creme and ultra light on her back and her ears.
> 
> ...


Finally, thanks for referring to the type of dog as a British retriever!!! English Cream sounds like a type of cookie! . The breed originates from Scotland - mine is Welsh born of Welsh parents. A small thing to you guys over 'the pond' but a big thing to us non-English Brits


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> We got burned getting our dog from a breeder we haven't met. Maybe we would have been in the same situation even if we met the breeder. Trooper came from a reputable breeder with great pedigree. The poor sweet thing had seizures, starting with petite mal seizures at 4 to grand mal seizures at 6 thru almost the age of 13. My DH is blaming himself to this day for having him shipped to him via airplane - somehow he thinks that it is to blame that for his seizures.
> One of these days I will pull his paperwork from the filing cabinet. The bond I developed with him made me fall in love with the breed.


you have to remember that things happen... that even when a breeder does everything right things can happen I can attest to this with my Bing who has a serious congenital defect that we had no idea about when we sold him to a couple, once we found out we refunded their money and took the puppy back (at their request) ... we had no idea he was sick when he went to the family. 

I also have a boy here who started seizing at a year old and is now 11 it stinks, but there is no guarantee that meeting the breeder would have changed the situation... I am sorry you got burned but just keep in mind that many of us in the dog world will get puppies sight unseen from reputable breeders to diversify pedigrees, to bring in dogs that we have seen and add it really is not a red flag... but the utmost caution must be taken. 
s


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Shalva, we never blamed the breeder and as I said probably we would have gotten Trooper even if we met the breeder. Nor would we EVER consider returning the puppy no matter what the future brings. The moment the puppy steps foot on our land he/she is a family member. And all the darn stray cats for that matter. 
Forums such as this also helps in determining how the breeders care for their furry friends and their pups and also develop a virtual relationship with the breeder. There are quite a few of you that I have the utmost respect for.


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## TeamBurke (Jan 5, 2013)

Can I ask if anyone has any experience with Kyon Kennels in Canada?


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

I have a 6 year old golden whose grandfather is from Kyon. Also, there are at least 2 dogs that come to off-leash play that are from Kyon. One is a 2 1/2 possibly 3 year old male and he just loves everybody, nice temperment, very light in colour and an all round big goof ball, he also has SAS, I believe the breeder gave them a 10 year guarantee on his heart. The other is a girl not quite a year old, she has a little more colour, well mannered, a little overweight--not the breeders fault, but a little skittish, I don't think the owners have socialized her very much. The owners of the little girl also have a male, never seen him, from Kyon who is 16 1/2 years old, and I believe they also had another Kyon male that lived to 15 years. 

The boy with SAS is evidence that even if you "do everything right" there are no guarantees, but this breeder has stepped up, found the dog a unconditional loving home, with the resources to take care of him, and has extended their health guarantee (replacement puppy) on his heart to 10 years and made sure the buyers understood what they were getting by adopting him.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Billabong said:


> Finally, thanks for referring to the type of dog as a British retriever!!! English Cream sounds like a type of cookie! . The breed originates from Scotland - mine is Welsh born of Welsh parents. A small thing to you guys over 'the pond' but a big thing to us non-English Brits


Over here English Style refers to a series of traits that are different from our American Style... at this point in time it has very little to do with country or area of origin .... the reality is that Wales is part of the UK and as such English is not all that far off... Romanian golden retrievers are also referred to as English style as the dogs in the pedigree often to back to UK pedigrees.... the boy I got from Portugal also is referred to as English style... again nothing to do with country of origin but rather the dogs that the pedigree goes back to and the series of traits.


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## lks (Jan 9, 2013)

this posted in the wrong place


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## lks (Jan 9, 2013)

Alaska Retrievers is an excellent breeder. I have a dog from them, know others who have dogs, have been to the home and kennel and could not give them a higher reccomendation. I have even watched them take extraordinarey measures to protect each puppy they sell and keep track of them. I am sad that many people are commenting on things they don't know about...this is not high school but real life! Really, this amazing family breeds, trains and raises amazing dogs and the children are adorable as well!


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## lks (Jan 9, 2013)

This is from another post, and some may find it helpful.
I would like to see this article included as a sticky on this forum:

http://www.englishgoldens.net/pdf/Wh...nRetriever.pdf


Perhaps this article written by Bev Brown would be of interest to those looking for English golden retriever puppies and the terms White, Platinum, Cream and American Red being used by breeders to give those puppy buyers a better understanding of the Golden Retriever Breed Standards in the US, Canada and Europe? I think it is an excellent article.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

lks said:


> This is from another post, and some may find it helpful.
> I would like to see this article included as a sticky on this forum:
> 
> http://www.englishgoldens.net/pdf/Wh...nRetriever.pdf
> ...


It already is posted as a sticky. 


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

lks said:


> Alaska Retrievers is an excellent breeder. I have a dog from them, know others who have dogs, have been to the home and kennel and could not give them a higher reccomendation. I have even watched them take extraordinarey measures to protect each puppy they sell and keep track of them. I am sad that many people are commenting on things they don't know about...this is not high school but real life! Really, this amazing family breeds, trains and raises amazing dogs and the children are adorable as well!


I am sorry that you think a few "I would research further" posts based on publicly available and verifiable information is a high school style gang up on this breeder. 

Yes, this forum expects breeders to abide by the COE for the country they are breeding in. So, we are expecting dogs to be over 24 months when bred and have verifiable hips and elbows at or after 24 months, heart cardiologist at or after 12 months, and eyes done annually.

Does this breeder do all of this consistently? No.

And honestly I have not done a really deep, intensive search to find what I have.

She has breed dogs as young as 13 months. This dog obviously did not have clearences because he was not two. When he was two he came back with elbow Dysplasia grade 2. He is being listed on her boys section so, I don't know if she plans to continue using this dog or if she kept any of the offering in her program.

Also, when you put something up on your website, you chose to put it there and If you say you do it, you should. So, when you say,"We O.F.A all our Golden Retrievers". I expect to see that you do. They do not, which is a shame because it would be awesome if everything was on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. It is a worthy goal and I hope someday they will.

Does she have nice dogs, does she have beautiful dogs, is she a gracious host, a nice person, a lover of her animals, does see have cute puppies that any buyer would love? I honestly don't know. Nor will I ever find out because, in my opinion the practices I am seeing are not ones I would choose to support.

This is my opinion, but it is based on facts that can be verified. I don't know this breeder by anything else than what is online but for me, it is enough to make a disison as a puppy buyer about a breeder.

I know a lot of folks bemoan the fact that this is the case. But, just like being aware of your online presence when searching for a job, breeders need to be equally aware that details of how they are breeding are available publicly. For those to care to look, we can see when dogs are bred underage, we can see when clearences are not online or have failed public statuses, we can see when breeders make statements they do no hold themselves to. It is out there for anyone who looks.

Is this the same decision everyone will make? No. 

Each person must make their own decision. The best way to make a good decision is to be informed. That is what this section is all about. Helping buyers make an informed decision. I do not make anyone else's decision but my own (and maybe my husbands). Each reader here takes away what they find value in. And I'm sure for every person who agrees with what I say, there are others who don't. That is the beauty of a forum.


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## SheamanKennels (Jan 9, 2013)

I was brought to this forum by my client April Fulk(Alaska Retrievers).

I have worked closer with April than probably anyone while handling almost all het beautiful goldens over the past 4 yrs. If anyone needs more information feel free to contact me.
[email protected]
Sheaman Kennels | Home
Amanda


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Welcome to the forum Amanda.:wave: I hope you enjoy your journey into our breed forum. There is great information on all facets of golden ownership and love. I hope you enjoy some of the more fun areas of our site like the pictures and chit chat areas.


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## ally1h (Nov 27, 2012)

I am sorry for not having seen how this thread has gone sooner. Please allow me to clear some things up as there have been many false assumptions made and I do not wish for my breeder's reputation to be tossed in the mud as none of you have worked with her. That said, I have not read through all the posts so please bear with me.

I did my research. Three long years of it in fact. I did not choose lightly.

Alaska's Retrievers specializes in English type golden retrievers. The coloring of their dogs is an added bonus, but what they focus on is temperament first and foremost, as all breeders should. I contacted this breeder months before the dam's heat and spoke of my desire to raise a therapy dog. She has experience in this as she most recently had one of her dogs retire with an active duty veteran with post traumatic stress disorder. She also works closely with the local Midnight Sun Service Dogs group and referred me to the owner personally who also has been incredibly helpful in preparing my puppy for therapy dog work.

She was a wealth of information and sent me ALL CLEARANCES. Hips and elbows through the OFA website were available for me. She personally provided official documentation certifying the sire and dam's eye and heart clearances through a PDF via email.

Alaska's Retrievers and I worked closely together throughout the dam's pregnancy and after the whelping to ensure the entire litter would be given the appropriate opportunity for therapy work when mature enough. For example, I provided multiple hospital sounds and she played these sounds in her home as they developed and grew. Bless her heart because a lot of those sounds are incredibly annoying!

Alaska's Retrievers temperament tests all litters to appropriately place the puppy to the correct homes. She utilizes the Volhard's methods approach to temperament testing. She asked me if I would like to assist in the temperament testing, which of course I said yes. I travelled to her home with my significant other and we assisted with testing each individual pup while her daughter watched the rest of the litter. The breeder spent hours with us that particular day and it was very clearly apparent how much in love she is with all her dogs, pups, and with what she does. In terms of temperament? My particular puppy scored perfect 3's across the board, which I learned was ideal for a golden retriever.

In the weeks before receiving my puppy, the breeder was hard at work beginning the training for all her pups! My puppy was completely crate trained by the time he arrived in my home and housebreaking was a SNAP! He has been the picture perfect golden retriever puppy. Textbook perfect and I haven't had any problems.

The day he was to come home with me the breeder did something more amazing than I could have dreamed. Her second daughter willingly drove hours to drop my puppy off. With Alaska being as large as that is, I'm sure all of you can appreciate what a kind gesture that is. Her second daughter was as wonderful as the breeder and the first daughter I met. She greeted me warmly and took a picture of my puppy, myself, and my significant other. I learned that she was delivering another puppy that morning to who knows where else! She didn't ask for gas money and was only concerned about dropping this puppy off safely.

Since my puppy has been home, the breeder and I have kept in touch and she has helped guide me through raising him as it has been a long while since I've raised a puppy. 

All that she has done and continues to do has made her an exceptional breeder in my eyes and is saddens me greatly to read all of the negative commentary on this thread, especially when no one here, besides myself, can give any personal, first hand experience.

Finally, she is one of the most approachable people I have ever met. She is a completely open book. If any of you have questions or concerns I guarantee you she would be 100% willing to speak with you in a professional manner to clean up any misconceptions and to answer any and all questions. Email her. Call her. Send her a private message on Facebook. She is easy to find. After all, the first phone call I made to her last 3 hours as I grilled her with every question and concern I had and she did the same to me. She has been nothing but honest, professional, and friendly in the 9 months I have known her. 

I could not be absolutely more pleased with her. I could not be more impressed with her breeding program.

That said, perhaps the age old saying "Treat others how you wish to be treated." Is most appropriate for this particular thread.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Ally1h I am glad that you are happy with your research, your decision, and your puppy. Thank you for sharing your experience with this breeder. I don't think that this breeder's puppy rearing, socialization, service work or training was ever questioned. 

To be honest, the initial response post to yours while less than flattering was not rude or hurtful in it's tone. It simply stated some of the questions for conversation and suggested the OP research further. I have seen postings much more passionate and dramatic on similar information.

So, your post should really teach me a lesson, not to have and express opinions based on public information and trusted sources like the OFFA. Because I have never met or spoke with this person, does that make my opinion or the easily verifiable information I have shared unimportant? It seems that you think so.

Does knowing or speaking with someone undo the underage breeding of Boss? Does it undo the fact that Nani was bred twice before ever getting an OFA elbow clearance? Does it negate the higher risk of elbow Dysplasia these Boss x Nani puppies have since their 13 month old sire had grade 2 elbow Dysplasia at 25 months old?

I am glad your pup has all the appropriate clearances. Perhaps Alaska Retrievers is moving towards following the COE and upholding their online statements. I guess time will tell.

I really do hope to see you in other more fun areas of the forum. We would love to see pictures of your pup and hear how the therapy work is coming.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm sorry, the last time I checked HEALTH was the top priority I have when looking at a pedigree. That said, it is followed by longevity and then temperament. 

I don't know about most of you guys, but that's what I go by, not temperament first.


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## wags100 (Jan 9, 2013)

I wanted to reply to three points that were made in this discussion. 

First of all, there is documented research that shows that the death rate of goldens of British descent for cancer is 38.8%. Please see page 2 of this study done by the Kennel Club in the UK. 
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1563/hsgoldenretriever.pdf

Comparatively speaking, the research provided by the GRCA on the same topic of death due to neoplasms (cancer) in Goldens in the US can be found on pages 121 and 122.
http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/healthsurvey.pdf

From this research it shows that a much larger percentage of American goldens die of cancer than those of British descent. 

The other thing to consider is that not all databases are public. Penn Hip is not a public database. The BVA only shows health results of dogs residing in the UK. Just because clearances can't be found on the OFA site doesn't mean the breeder didn't do clearances. And even if they use OFA, the results are only shown if the client allows it. Many people would prefer not to line the pockets of the OFA by paying $25 per dog to show clearances that were not done by the OFA when there are so many other tests to be concerned with (ie. PRA, Ichthyosis, etc). 

There are many ways of doing things. I would suggest that if people are interested in a breeders animals, they can ask to see clearances if they are not on a public database. If they cannot provide them, look elsewhere. 

In my opinion, temperament is as important as health. What's the point of owning a healthy dog if he's mean as a snake. 

I know April Fulk well. She is a caring, loving breeder with outstanding dogs. She does all health clearances, and probably does more than most (OFA, BVA AND Penn Hip on top of PRA and Ich testing). If you dig deep enough, you can find dirt on anyone. To me it's not about things that were done in the past. It's about where they have been, what they have learned along the way, how they have grown, and how they are taking those experiences to move forward for the benefit and love of the breed that matters. Perhaps the best suggestion for anyone looking for a new family member is to ask the breeder for references. That way you can learn from someone who has a dog from that breeder of their experience first hand. 

Angel Martin
Goldensglen Goldens


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

wags100 said:


> I wanted to reply to three points that were made in this discussion.
> 
> First of all, there is documented research that shows that the death rate of goldens of British descent for cancer is 38.8%. Please see page 2 of this study done by the Kennel Club in the UK.
> http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1563/hsgoldenretriever.pdf
> ...


I strongly disagree that this is the result of any analysis of these studies. Besides the obvious fact that ALL goldens descend from the same lines, which should go without saying IMO, these studies were not conducted jointly by the breed clubs so comparing the results is comparing apples to oranges. It was also voluntary reporting, which in terms of validating the statistics, makes the results very very unclear. People whose dogs are healthy are not as likely to self report on things like this. It's like going on a pregnancy message board and deciding that everyone is going to have a miscarriage because so many people on the boards post about miscarriages. When in reality the statistic has, and will always be about 1 in 5 pregnancies end in miscarriage. Kind of an odd analogy but makes my point as well as any other.  

Additionally, and importantly, if you actually read the studies you'll note that these two surveys are not controlled for the descent of the dogs in each study. There are likely goldens of European descent included in the GRCA study. And could also be American descended dogs incorporated into the UK study. Additionally, the UK study included 1717 live dogs from 538 owners. That is such a TINY population of goldens in the UK. The GRCA study included only 746 owners for 1444 dogs. Again, a teeny tiny percentage of the actual golden retrievers living in the US. And, again, theoretically, a large percentage of these could have been UK bred/descended goldens living in the US. 

Taking these surveys as gospel is just ridiculous, in my opinion, and a convenient way to market British style dogs to unsuspecting puppy buyers by touting them as healthier than their "American style" counterparts. It's fine to have a style preference in goldens, I certainly do, but you don't need to disparage dogs that look slightly different than yours in support of that preference.


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## wags100 (Jan 9, 2013)

Are you then saying that because people voluntarily reported results in these studies that they are inaccurate? That assumes that the results were not verified by the groups conducting the studies. I highly doubt the GRCA or the Kennel Club would put their names on anything that wasn't verified prior to publishing. There is no bias in either study. It's pure data based on the dogs that participated. If there are any goldens of American descent in the study in the UK it is marginal at best, but it's definitely worth asking if any of the participants were American. Conversely, it would be worth asking the pedigrees of those that participated in the American study. That would be excellent data to have. 

Yes, all dogs descended from the same goldens in the UK, but they have evolved over the years, especially since very few were imported during WWII to the US, and the American Golden evolved into it's own type. It's interesting that 90 other countries follow the country of origin breed standard yet the US has it's own version of the breed standard that is different than what the rest of the world acknowledges. 

I did not post the research to disparage American goldens. It was posted to refute your claim that British golden breeders used marketing ploys of better health. Perhaps you should ask if PU is a current concern in the British lines. To date it isn't. That does not imply that it won't be at some point, but at this juncture, the dogs suffering from PU are of American descent. 

That also does not imply that British type goldens don't have their issues. All goldens have health issues. But there actually are British golden breeders who are doing more testing than American breeders who are not marketing their dogs as white, platinum or English cream and who do not disparage other breeders despite type because they have a forum to do so.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wags100 said:


> Are you then saying that because people voluntarily reported results in these studies that they are inaccurate? That assumes that the results were not verified by the groups conducting the studies.


No, the previous poster simply described selection bias accurately. Both studies were designed to take a snapshot of their sample group relative to itself, not for comparison to a different study with different selection criteria, taken years later.

It doesn't account for differences in time, differences in reporting, differences in environment, differences in the selection group (i.e., inclusion of the huge number of US puppy mill dogs), differences in diagnosis and treatment rates between the US and UK, and any other of literally a dozen or more factors that would explain the difference in percentages other than the theory that you like best, that the rate of the disease itself is different. The two studies simply don't prove what you claim they do.



wags100 said:


> I did not post the research to disparage American goldens. It was posted to refute your claim that British golden breeders used marketing ploys of better health. Perhaps you should ask if PU is a current concern in the British lines. To date it isn't. That does not imply that it won't be at some point, but at this juncture, the dogs suffering from PU are of American descent.


It is absolutely undeniable that there is a subset of totally unethical breeders of English style dogs (often badly structured dogs imported from eastern Europe) that use claims like the ones that you're making to say that English style dogs are magically healthier. It's unethical and it's not supported by the data. There are also lots of wonderful breeders in the US who breed English style dogs who _don't_ make absurd, unproven, and unethical claims.

The dogs diagnosed with PU these days are of American descent (largely) because the GRCA has asked its breeders to screen with incredible rigor, and the good ones have done so. That doesn't mean that the rates in America are actually higher. One could take your specious argument and turn it around on British dogs and ichthyosis. It would be equally silly to say that it's not a problem in the US and it's only found in English style dogs simply because more testing has been done of European dogs and lines.

As long as testing standards are different, the percentages are going to come out different. That doesn't mean that British or American dogs are actually riskier on a particular issue. Nobody's studying them relative to one another with any kind of scientific and statistical rigor. The two surveys involved that provide the closest thing to data were based on geography, not heredity. And, it's unlikely that there will be substantial differences on hereditary issues, given the small gene pool involved. All Goldens are far too closely related to each other (y'know, since it's a breed), and there's been far too much exchange for there to be dramatic hereditary differences like a doubled cancer risk between one group and another based on the small divergence in the standard.

Looking at vastly different health issues found with vastly different medical environments and then claiming that one set of dogs is better on the issue than another is completely unscientific.

Nobody disparages English style dogs around here. We love 'em, even when we prefer American standard. We disparage bad science and bad breeding practices, especially when they're used to dupe families who just want a healthy dog.


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## wags100 (Jan 9, 2013)

I have six tested goldens of British descent. Three are clear of Ich, two are carriers and one is affected. Yes, there is an Ichthyosis issue and there are other things that Europeans IMO should be doing that they don't like heart testing. But I'd take an Ich affected dog any day over PU. You are comparing apples and oranges. 

And no reputable breeder supports anyone who is unethical. But the point in my post was that you were talking about a reputable breeder in a light that was not nice or accurate of her program today. 

We will just have to agree to disagree with the studies. 

If y'all love English breeders, you might try getting to know us personally before responding negatively to anything about us. It shouldn't be "us" vs. "you." We're all in this together.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wags100 said:


> I have six tested goldens of British descent. Three are clear of Ich, two are carriers and one is affected. Yes, there is an Ichthyosis issue and there are other things that Europeans IMO should be doing that they don't like heart testing. But I'd take an Ich affected dog any day over PU. You are comparing apples and oranges.


I am not comparing them in terms of severity. I am illustrating the concept that testing and reporting can change the apparent rates of a disease if your thinking is fuzzy or if you don't understand what reporting bias is.



wags100 said:


> We will just have to agree to disagree with the studies.


You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts. The basic fact is that you cannot compare statistical analyses the way that you (and many unethical breeders) have. If you don't want to be lumped in with them, don't make the inaccurrate and unethical claims that they do.



wags100 said:


> If y'all love English breeders, you might try getting to know us personally before responding negatively to anything about us. It shouldn't be "us" vs. "you." We're all in this together.


Then don't make claims that don't pass the sniff test. There are lots and lots of posts on this forum that are supportive of English style dogs, even those bred over here where they can't compete effectively in the AKC ring. There are even a couple of breeders of English style dogs who are respected forum members.

What people react very quickly to is the idea of "English Cream" dogs and a number of other red flags, because they have turned into a kind of callsign for people who breed for color rather than health and who dupe the families who buy their dogs by pretending there's some kind of rarity or cachet to the color.

I have absolutely no idea who you are or what your kennel name is. It's possible that you're totally awesome. I simply responded directly to your post and the inaccuracies in it. You might be incredibly ethical and simply incorrect on the one claim. It's entirely possible that, as I learn more, I might recommend your kennel to people who ask me where to buy a Golden.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

NEWS FLASH: if you breed Goldens in the US, BVA is not applicable to dogs born in the USA. Nor is PennHip ok if dog in question is under two years. ... We can all pick and chose what we consider to be the worst traits to breed into or against... Is it PU,PRA, Grade I elbow dysplasia?? Me, personally, I want it all up on OFA, and then the puppy buyers can make their decisions.....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And ask Kwhit, how much she "loves" icthyosis.....


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

MaddieMagoo said:


> I'm sorry, the last time I checked HEALTH was the top priority I have when looking at a pedigree. That said, it is followed by longevity and then temperament.


Why should one of these be put ahead of the others in importance? I want _all _of these things as top priorities. And as far as temperament being last...well, it doesn't matter if the dog is healthy or has a long life ahead of it, if it's a dog that you can't live with.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> And ask Kwhit, how much she "loves" icthyosis.....


Yep...definitely not fun to have an affected dog. In fact, last week when I went to bathe Chance where I always go, I was almost asked to leave. The clerk got complaints from the other owners that were bathing their dogs, saying they were nervous that Chance was contagious. :no: I can't blame them, his flakes are so bad now that you can see them very easily and when he's wet, well, it's not pretty.

It's awful to deal with. I wouldn't wish it on any dog or any owner.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Wow, let's invite everyone who can champion April Fulk to join this month. I really am glad you all are happy to support her. You all are very loyal and I am sure wonderful friends. 

I am not sure where this assumed hatred of British/English goldens comes from. Honestly I don't care what your dog looks like or which standard you breed to. 
I would have made and have made the same posts regardless of what style a breeder is in to. I don't care if it is American style, English style, field style etc. I will always post my opinion based on verifiable facts.

What is interesting to me is all the recent joiners and the range of arguments used. First, it was the if you have not met this person, you can't know anything about them. Then the gloss over of real issues. Then the "it's in the past." Now, some posts to make it seem like it's the "Americans" versus the "English". Bad mean "American Style" lovers beating down the "English Style" breeder. Honestly, this is so ridiculous.

I am sorry if you don't like the facts of this breeding program. Yes, Alaska's retrievers will have to live with the consequences of underage breeding and breeding a Dysplasic dog Grade 2. Is it in the past? Technically by the dictionary definition yes. In reality these puppies were whelped just 15 months ago. To me, that recent history in a breeding program and still has a bearing on my view of this program. 

I believe any one looking to deal with this breeder (puppy buyers in particular) has a right to know what this breeder has produced. Sweeping it under the rug or glossing over this fact does not instill the feeling that lessons have been learned and things are different now.

Interestingly, when I try to view the website I can only view the blog not the main pages? Could just be my connection. Just thought it was interesting.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ljack, I had the same viewing issue...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I seriously have an issue with Goldensglen Goldens which came to the defense... There are dogs/bitches on the website born in the USA with BVA clearances way before two years....


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I seriously have an issue with Goldensglen Goldens which came to the defense... There are dogs/bitches on the website born in the USA with BVA clearances way before two years....


They are also members of the British Golden Retriever club that and there was a great deal of discussion about that group amongst other breeders of English style dogs because the group advocates for a breed split.... they used to have a listing of members up on that site but took it down when there was an outcry ... amazing how no names are listed on that site any longer. 

I personally will continue to follow the GRCA


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

LJack said:


> Wow, let's invite everyone who can champion April Fulk to join this month. I really am glad you all are happy to support her. You all are very loyal and I am sure wonderful friends.
> 
> I am not sure where this assumed hatred of British/English goldens comes from. Honestly I don't care what your dog looks like or which standard you breed to.
> I would have made and have made the same posts regardless of what style a breeder is in to. I don't care if it is American style, English style, field style etc. I will always post my opinion based on verifiable facts.
> ...


nope I can't get to it either... I bet by tomm. morning it will be available again with all sorts of changes made


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> I seriously have an issue with Goldensglen Goldens which came to the defense... There are dogs/bitches on the website born in the USA with BVA clearances way before two years....


Of the 7 dogs listed on their website, 6 of the 7 have only practioner heart clearances.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I personally like BVA clearances... I do think it gives a great deal more information than OFA BUT it needs to be done after age 2.... and I would only do them in conjunction with the OFA...


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## ally1h (Nov 27, 2012)

LJack

Let us agree to disagree. I see no purposeful or pleasant end to our discussions and I have not appreciated the passive aggressive slights on my intelligence. You may not have intended them in such a way, but that is how they were perceived.

Further, please do not contact me again via PM. If you wish to continue to send me perceived passive aggressive messages then do so via the public forum. I will not respond to either, however.

It has occurred to me that the nature of this thread has turned into a rabid dog: attacking anyone bringing forth information for and against both arguments. It is completely unproductive. No one will win. Certainly not the original poster. I am sure he has gained nothing regarding his original question from this thread.

Signing out forever from this fruitless thread.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> You are entitled to your own opinions but not to your own facts.


Salient and really useful contribution by TippyKayak . . .


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Ally1h 

I really am sorry you feel I am being passive aggressive to you. I am also sorry I reached out with a personal message intended to re assure you that this conversation is not about you or your dog. As a new person I was afraid that the very critical nature of this type of posting might scare you off as it has others who feel deep personal connections to breeders that have breeding programs that may not hold up to the standards generally accepted as reputable in the US. I am also sorry that you are percieving thing not as they were intended. I think it is great that you have had a positive experience and thank you for your contributions to the discussion.

I however do not appreciate that you are trying to make nicely worded well intentioned private communication out to be some form of attack or harassment. I will not send you anything else privately. If you do not want to see my information please use the block feature of the form.

I would like to make clear to everyone here just exactly what I said in the private message. So, Ally1h I would like your permission to post the two private message that I sent to you. I just want to post mine. Unless you would like to post yours as well. _May I please post my private messages so others can see I was not mean, rude, or hurtful?_:crossfing It really does bother me that you have made this claim about me on something they can not see. I am all for transparency.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

LJack said:


> I would like to make clear to everyone here just exactly what I said in the private message. So, Ally1h I would like your permission to post the two private message that I sent to you. I just want to post mine. Unless you would like to post yours as well. _May I please post my private messages so others can see I was not mean, rude, or hurtful?_:crossfing It really does bother me that you have made this claim about me on something they can not see. I am all for transparency.


I thought the rule about private messages only applied to other people's. I don't see why wouldn't you be able to post what you yourself wrote. I'm not a mod, though.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> I thought the rule about private messages only applied to other people's. I don't see why wouldn't you be able to post what you yourself wrote. I'm not a mod, though.


It is a great question and I would love for the mods to weigh in. Would posting my own PM be acceptable based on the code?


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

quote "I am sorry if you don't like the facts of this breeding program. Yes, Alaska's retrievers will have to live with the consequences of underage breeding and breeding a Dysplasic dog Grade 2. Is it in the past? Technically by the dictionary definition yes. In reality these puppies were whelped just 15 months ago. To me, that recent history in a breeding program and still has a bearing on my view of this program." quote


Actually the past is not so long ago. Boss was shipped to GA and used for stud just a couple of months ago. I believe he was also rescued by a gentleman in TX and the dog was underweight and not well cared for. Alaskas Retrievers was not only using the stud themselves but offering him as a stud to others w/ grade II elbows. Definition of past I believe would mean yesterday. Does this mean that Alaskas Retrievers can do as the please as long as it is in the "past"?


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

I was responding to this post:
"I am sorry if you don't like the facts of this breeding program. Yes, Alaska's retrievers will have to live with the consequences of underage breeding and breeding a Dysplasic dog Grade 2. Is it in the past? Technically by the dictionary definition yes. In reality these puppies were whelped just 15 months ago. To me, that recent history in a breeding program and still has a bearing on my view of this program."


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

LJack said:


> It is a great question and I would love for the mods to weigh in. Would posting my own PM be acceptable based on the code?


The mod team discussed it and posting any PMs is prohibited.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks for weighing in. I understood it the same way. That is why I asked permission. We will see if I get a response.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

LJack said:


> Thanks for weighing in. I understood it the same way. That is why I asked permission. We will see if I get a response.


Since you won the argument, and the other party expressed the desire to lay the topic to rest, you likely will not get a response. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Wags100, you are incorrect about one of the things you said about OFA. OFA ALWAYS posts passing results for dogs with clearances at the appropriate ages. They only post not passing results, if ,you allow them to. You pay the fee regardless.... And they only post results of underage dogs if you allow it.


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

I would just like to make a respone to wags post earlier re: BVA/OFA.

"quote:The other thing to consider is that not all databases are public. Penn Hip is not a public database. The BVA only shows health results of dogs residing in the UK. Just because clearances can't be found on the OFA site doesn't mean the breeder didn't do clearances. And even if they use OFA, the results are only shown if the client allows it. Many people would prefer not to line the pockets of the OFA by paying $25 per dog to show clearances that were not done by the OFA when there are so many other tests to be concerned with (ie. PRA, Ichthyosis, etc).quote".

One would think that since you are a club member of the BGRCA as well as Alaskas Retrievers that you would want to be an example for other breeders here in the states. You stated that BVA did not post results then why would you not pay $25.00 to have your results known public to others? Not to pack the pockets of OFA but to prevent not so reputable breeders from just "stating" they have BVA results when in fact they do not. I would think that since you both are members of the BGRCA you would be a positive example for others as great mentors at the very least. Here is an example of a breeder living in Canada that not only has OFA but BVA posted on the OFA site. Pedigree: Can Ch Linirgor Must Be Luv

Like I said, you both are club officers yet you can’t pay $25.00 to show your results on OFA? Be an example rather than trying to beat the system every chance you get. How easy is it to state that you have BVA results when in fact you do not? It is your duty as a club officer to lead as a great example. Or is it true that this club formed by you is nothing more than a way to hide clearances and do as you please and when caught state “It is in the past”.?


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

BVA results posted in OFA: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals++


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

According to the BGRCA fb page Katie Page is an officer as well with Lucky Lady Farms. It appears their health clearances are lacking as well. However, they could be BVA but there is no way to verify. My point is this, if you are an officer of a club that other breeders will join I believe it is your duty to make all health clearances available as a positive example for your club members. Also, to show to other breeders that you are at least testing for hips/elbows in accordance to your own club COE. If the officers are not doing what they are suppose to do then I am sure the members are following your example.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Julianne said:


> According to the BGRCA fb page Katie Page is an officer as well with Lucky Lady Farms. It appears their health clearances are lacking as well. However, they could be BVA but there is no way to verify. My point is this, if you are an officer of a club that other breeders will join I believe it is your duty to make all health clearances available as a positive example for your club members. Also, to show to other breeders that you are at least testing for hips/elbows in accordance to your own club COE. If the officers are not doing what they are suppose to do then I am sure the members are following your example.


I love her /\ 

I have not been overly impressed with that British Golden club... especially knowing what i know about the members...


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## wags100 (Jan 9, 2013)

I understand how OFA works. And I choose not to use them because they will grade any x-ray regardless of positioning because as Dr. Keller said to me, "You pay us to grade what you send us." I choose not to support the OFA (outside of heart and now eye clearances) until they start refusing to grade improperly positioned x-rays. I get my clearances done from the BVA which is also a reputable health screening system that will return improperly positioned x-rays and make the vet correct them. Sally's Mom, aren't you a vet *******************? Because if that's the case, it's quite disturbing to me that you as a vet would suggest another system is unacceptable because it's not OFA. It is beyond arrogant for people in America to think that the OFA's way of doing things is the only correct way. There is no room for politics in the health of our animals. The GRCA offers guidance and suggestion regarding health testing. It is not law. There are many ways to do the same thing properly and as long as breeders are health testing to further the breed is what matters.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Please do not post personal information about a person's identity and please keep this thread respectful.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wags100 said:


> I understand how OFA works. And I choose not to use them because they will grade any x-ray regardless of positioning because as Dr. Keller said to me, "You pay us to grade what you send us." I choose not to support the OFA (outside of heart and now eye clearances) until they start refusing to grade improperly positioned x-rays. I get my clearances done from the BVA which is also a reputable health screening system that will return improperly positioned x-rays and make the vet correct them. Sally's Mom, aren't you a vet *******************? Because if that's the case, it's quite disturbing to me that you as a vet would suggest another system is unacceptable because it's not OFA. It is beyond arrogant for people in America to think that the OFA's way of doing things is the only correct way. There is no room for politics in the health of our animals. The GRCA offers guidance and suggestion regarding health testing. It is not law. There are many ways to do the same thing properly and as long as breeders are health testing to further the breed is what matters.


When unethical people stop importing dogs from Spain and Russia and claiming clearances on them that clearly were not done, you'll see us calm down about the use of OFA hip and elbow scoring and the posting of eye and heart clearances to a central, public database. Anybody who cross-posts BVA clearances so they're publicly viewable isn't taking flak for it, so far as I know. It's those who publicly claim clearances without publicly verifying them, and even then, there's usually some benefit of the doubt extended.

If you're in America and you're breeding Goldens, the club of record is the GRCA. Their Code of Ethics is really a bare minimum for good breeding, as there is SO much more that goes into it. So you're not going to hear a lot of patience around here for technical complaints about the way OFA hips are scored unless you're posting your alternate cert (PennHIP, BVA, etc.) publicly. It just sounds like excuses not to do them, and when you make enough excuses about not doing clearances, you start to sound like somebody who's just cranking out pups for profit.

If the rads are badly positioned, don't send them in in the first place. Asking the OFA to refuse to score what's sent to it doesn't make any practical sense.


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## wags100 (Jan 9, 2013)

If the moderators are going to delete identity information, you must delete kennels names that are also on this list as well as names of people. The thread was nothing but respectful. If you are following one rule to protect identities, all identities should be protected. 

As for paying the OFA to list my BVA documents, I just recently found out that is an option but I have a fundamental problem lining the OFA's pockets with their current stance on reading anything. People who are interested in my dogs can certainly contact me if they want that information. And the BVA is looking at making their database open despite the country you reside so hopefully very soon it will also be public. I am certainly in favor of that because there are many disreputable breeders making untrue claims. I'm not one of them. 

Speaking on the BGRCA, the club's purpose is two fold. First, to educate people on the health issues in the British type golden retriever since so much of the GRCA's health information lately is on PU which currently does not affect our type. Secondly it was formed as an avenue to show in the UKC. It's not an attempt to hide clearances of any kind. We expect our members to health test as well. In fact most do much more health testing. It's not only arrogant but it's untrue and libelous to suggest I don't have clearances on my dogs. 

I really don't understand what it is about the British golden and its' breeders (at least the reputable ones) that are such a threat to you all. But in forums like this, you make yourselves look very small with the constant attacks. Perhaps you would be better served to find out more about other clubs, other health schemes and other ways of doing things correctly instead of attacking that which you don't understand.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wags100 said:


> If the moderators are going to delete identity information, you must delete kennels names that are also on this list as well as names of people. The thread was nothing but respectful. If you are following one rule to protect identities, all identities should be protected.


False equivalency. Critiquing publicly available information (such as a kennel website or OFA listings) and posting individual member's personal information are appropriate apples and inappropriate oranges.



wags100 said:


> As for paying the OFA to list my BVA documents, I just recently found out that is an option but I have a fundamental problem lining the OFA's pockets with their current stance on reading anything. People who are interested in my dogs can certainly contact me if they want that information. And the BVA is looking at making their database open despite the country you reside so hopefully very soon it will also be public. I am certainly in favor of that because there are many disreputable breeders making untrue claims. I'm not one of them.


If and when BVA clearances become public, I think you'll see a lot less speculation about breeders truthfulness. In the interim, you can follow the GRCA's recommendation and use OFA, or you can use an alternate method and post it publicly.



wags100 said:


> Speaking on the BGRCA, the club's purpose is two fold. First, to educate people on the health issues in the British type golden retriever since so much of the GRCA's health information lately is on PU which currently does not affect our type.


This is untrue and really makes it sound like you're trying to cover for a much more nefarious purpose. These kinds of claims make the BGRCA seem very shady. Putting aside the highly debatable claim that no KC-standard dogs ever get PU, the GRCA has information and pursues research on ichthyosis, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, SAS, and all kinds of other breed-specific problems. English style dogs simply aren't far enough away from American style dogs to be fundamentally different in their hereditary issues.



wags100 said:


> Secondly it was formed as an avenue to show in the UKC. It's not an attempt to hide clearances of any kind. We expect our members to health test as well. In fact most do much more health testing. It's not only arrogant but it's untrue and libelous to suggest I don't have clearances on my dogs.


Who suggested that? I said that if you use the same excuses as the people who don't clear, you start to sound like somebody who doesn't. That's true, not libelous. I've made no claims (and I don't think anybody has) about your dogs' clearances.



wags100 said:


> I really don't understand what it is about the British golden and its' breeders (at least the reputable ones) that are such a threat to you all. But in forums like this, you make yourselves look very small with the constant attacks. Perhaps you would be better served to find out more about other clubs, other health schemes and other ways of doing things correctly instead of attacking that which you don't understand.


If you're referring to me, I understand quite well. I favor publicly posted clearances, and the GRCA's with me on that. I also think there's a huge issue right now because people are abusing and scamming puppy buyers with arguments very similar to the ones you're making here. They use the lack of public availability in order to lie and fudge the truth. They use the idea of "English" dogs to create a false sense of rarity. They use specious claims about health (which you did repeat a couple of times in this thread) in order to pretend that their dogs are at lower risk for expensive and debilitating problems.

Even on the BGRCA website, it states in the Code of Ethics that members need to "possess, and make publicly available the following examination reports in order to verify status concerning possible hip dysplasia, hereditary eye disease, hereditary cardiovascular disease, and elbow dysplasia." So I'm not sure what we're arguing about. If your clearances aren't public, you're not following the CoE as defined by the website of the organization you're promoting.

Am I missing something?


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

Wags100 is there a reason that an officer of your club BGRCA bred a dog with grade II elbows? Is there a reason an officer of your club offered him as a stud dog just a month or so ago knowing he had grade II elbows? Is breeding grade II elbows a part of your COE? Like I said being officers of a golden retriever club I believe should uphold all admins to a higher standard. You are after all the "officers" of this club. Also being an officer of the BGRCA I would think that advertising puppies as "show potential" might be a no no as well. I believe reputable breeders looking for a show quality puppy would know where to look and this is nothing more than an advertisment to sell a puppy on full reg at a higher price. Reputable breeders do not need to advertise "show quality puppies". Officers of golden retriever clubs should not be selling puppies on full reg unless they know the person very well or know for a fact that they actually "show" their dogs. Golden Retriever Puppy for Sale: English Creme/Hunting lines/Beautiful STATURE - ce42eefb-bb31
Also advertising "show Potential" puppies that aren't even born. How does she know she will have a show quality puppy? A breeder does not know until the puppies are around 8 weeks of age. I am thinking the "officers" should be setting the bar a little higher.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> False equivalency. Critiquing publicly available information (such as a kennel website or OFA listings) and posting individual member's personal information are appropriate apples and inappropriate oranges.


Tippy, thank you so much for being able to put words to what I wanted to say. Eloquently put as always. 

Wags: Listing information that is a part of the public record, such a kennel names and owners of record, is a far cry from listing someone's employment information on a public forum. The oranges are inappropriate because a) it's a violation of ToS and b) it's a violation of the member's privacy. 



Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

A "show potential" puppy means full reg. Why oh why would Alaskas Retrievers advertise "show potential" puppies???? I would think Alaslas Retrievers would want to protect the breed but this is telling a different story in my opinion. Unbelievable....the puppies are not even expected until 6/13/2013. Now, this is not past this is the future and it is there in the ad. Alaskas Retreivers can not deny advertising puppies on full reg when it is right here for the world to see. What is your response to this one? You can not claim past that is for sure.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

wags100 said:


> It is beyond arrogant for people in America to think that the OFA's way of doing things is the only correct way.


It escapes me how is is arrogant or unreasonable for people breeding dogs in America to follow the code of ethics set by the American breed club. Many, or even close to all of us, have made terribly difficult decisions based on bad news about clearances, so it is very hard to forgive a dog bred with failing ones or without them. I am not commenting on a specific breeder especially bc I genuinely have no clue who you guys are, but rather this specific sentence in this specific post which is really sounding like an excuse for not following the protocol for best practices. If I moved to the UK, I would certainly then work to fulfill the KC's code of ethics, but if you are in the USA, you must set the bar high and do what is asked of you by the GRCA, no excuses. It is not exactly a protest/boycott that will change the way OFA grades the xrays of other people's dogs, to decide you are above doing them, but rather something that makes it seem like shirking duty both toward the pups and the public and further compounding the problem of telling quality English goldens from HVB selling horribly bred dogs that are "white for 2,500$.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

wags100 said:


> Speaking on the BGRCA, the club's purpose is two fold. First, to educate people on the health issues in the British type golden retriever since so much of the GRCA's health information lately is on PU which currently does not affect our type. Secondly it was formed as an avenue to show in the UKC. It's not an attempt to hide clearances of any kind. We expect our members to health test as well. In fact most do much more health testing. It's not only arrogant but it's untrue and libelous to suggest I don't have clearances on my dogs.


I understand the reasons behind forming the BGRCA. I don't think they are what you suggest *really* but I think I have a sneaking suspicion as to why it was formed. I have to say, claiming that this club is an avenue to show in the UKC (as one of its main purposes???) makes little sense to me. You can already show in the UKC, I have friends who do pretty regularly....why does there need to be another club for that? The apparent "separationist" movement of some English style breeders seems to be the reason behind the formation of the club, with the other reasons being thrown in there for good measure. But seriously, who would form a club to show in a venue you can already show in???? Are you honestly saying that is one of the biggest reasons???

And no one is suggesting that ALL breeders of the English style of golden don't do health testing. What has been pointed out is that there are clearances lacking with certain breeders, or certain breeders breeding with failed clearances. No one is saying this is unique to the English style of golden, there are obviously a lot of unscrupulous breeders of all styles of goldens (and other breeds). But touting someone who does not comply with the GRCA COE as being on the "up and up" just sounds disingenuous to me. It's fine to say "this person is a part of my club but I don't agree with her breeding practices." There are breeders I know whose breeding practices scare me and/or make me concerned when the COE is being taken so lightly. Would I ever defend their choices? Heck no! I can disagree with their breeding practices and still be part of the same parent club. 



> I really don't understand what it is about the British golden and its' breeders (at least the reputable ones) that are such a threat to you all. But in forums like this, you make yourselves look very small with the constant attacks. Perhaps you would be better served to find out more about other clubs, other health schemes and other ways of doing things correctly instead of attacking that which you don't understand.


I can assure you, there is no "threat" to me personally, as an owner/exhibitor of golden retrievers. I actually feel badly for the truly reputable breeders of English style goldens because I think there are so many unscrupulous "breeders" out there breeding dogs solely for color. To assume people are jealous or threatened by you actually makes YOU appear very small. 

No one is attacking what they don't understand, in fact, they understand the GRCA COE perfectly and are simply pointing out that some of the breeders mentioned in this thread do not comply with the COE. What about that is difficult to comprehend??


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I have just checked on the KC website and one dog I exported which has been scored BVA has his hip and elbow results on but one from a previous litter doesn't, so I am not quite sure if they are being published now or not but obviously some are. Annef


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## TeamFulk (Jan 14, 2013)

Greetings from the Kenai,
I am April Fulk @Alaska's Retrievers. 
The information and convictions of golden owners on this forum (whom have posted) have made strong note that you are GRCA (COE) members.
I write with a different mind and heart of convictions. Please note I am a Member of over seas UK club.
I can say only of myself until BGRCA was created (13 months ago) I put myself under some not so good mentorship and presently great mentorship. 

I will address the concerns that have been writen regarding Mister Lovely Boss, whom is now residing in a forever pet home due to cercumstances. He was early years tested w/no signs of elbow displasia (as this is the issue being discussed) and used @stud in my home 13 months of age (now 31 months) with Purpose to our Nani whom would be retiring (her final litter). That clears up the lovely litter bred at my home. Boss was sought out by many GRCA COE members. So I planned OFA testing after his 2nd b-day. I had no reason to believe they would show evidence of displasia note: public record grade 2 Left, (mentorship noted after results came in many UK dogs were bred on grade 2 and changed with the right dog/bitch).
Boss had a pause in show time due to an accident (noted very much in deep vet records & my pocket book) and wasnt sure he would be such a desirable candidate for the GRCA breeders with out more show status. 
Working hard here at home we got him completely conditioned for our July Palmer AKC Show, Though only one in his class he was able to show under Author/ Breed Judge Jeffory Pepper in July before he left Alaska to become a Stud & show boy out side of my home. I had worked with a young breeder in GA many times (note above statement from golden owner) based off Boss's early testing we made a contract for him to continue his life in the Breed ring & @ Stud. (noting OFA 2yr results would be in shortly following his arrival). He was not used at Stud in GA (there was a plan but it never came about). Earlier in this thread a member noted he was rescued from GA. I do not wish to relive that time and our family is at rest with his new family that he very much owns & we are very much in contact with. 
ok, I am giving this my best to address the concerns of me (my decisions) and hope that its clear and not cloudy in any way.
As for the next day ad, man alive I didnt realize it went thru. There's honesty for you. I had used Next Day years ago & for a year now I've been trying to build up managing my own site (a big event for me) & thought if I was off air for that litter announcement id try the site again (note it has been deleted). Wasnt the best choice now was it. I am aware of that, thank you very much for pointing out that it was live & active. 
One thing as a golden owner/breeder I would like to comment on is the testing ive done depending on the lines your results could change from young to well after 2 years of age. I am only speaking from my own program, Boss being one. Will I keep this in mind testing my up & comings, Most def. YES. Science is just that, science. I am completely in love with the BVA Scheme. It kind of resembles Pennhip, but for back of better words more AWESOME. This is an opinion not a fact stated. 
I hope that I have been able to clear any confusion or given information you may have wanted. Again, GRCA COE is not in our program, however I am not against it either. I do however feel it should be stated as its suggested not law, just your convictions to follow. I am bettering myself, my Goldens and my program I have in place daily.
Many Kind regards to all that are reading, who will read and hope that one will learn from those that do stumble at times, not condem. We are to be available to help the other up above ourselves but if you deem yourself above another you have not possitioned yourself correctly (IMHO), Any great teacher would instruct you this way.
Grace to all, April


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## TeamFulk (Jan 14, 2013)

Please forgive ALL the typo's as there are many.


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## wags100 (Jan 9, 2013)

Golden Jack Puppy.....if you do any due diligence in the UKC, you will find that there was not a breed club affiliation for the Golden Retriever whatsoever until ours was formed. That is the reason we formed a group. One did not exist. Much has been claimed, none of it with any credibility. Have you bothered to inquire for any information about the BGRCA or are you just making assumptions? Many of our members are also GRCA members. But the BGRCA is based off the ideals of the country of origin for the Golden. You know what they say about assumptions. 

I cannot respond about another breeders program. But I will respond as to why I have not yet put my BVA results on OFA. I found out 10 days ago that I could add my dogs BVA results to OFA for $25 a dog, or I could spend $52 a dog to get PRA2 tests done in England on my dogs. Did you all even know there was now a PRA2 test available? There is and it's only available in England. All of my dogs have been tested for Ich and PRA1 and I felt it important to test for PRA2 now that it is available. Someone said something about leading by example. To me, it's a much better example to test my dogs and get health clearances that I can readily supply to inquiring minds. Couple that with a litter of pups on the ground I am testing for PRA1 and 2 as well as Ichthyosis and there is not enough money left to add my BVA scores to the OFA today. Will I? Yes, if the BVA does not open their own database. But I most definitely provide them to those who use my studs as well as to my puppy owners. They are also listed on K9data as well as my web site and hopefully in the near future all BVA results will be on open database. 

You all told me it was not appropriate for me to mention Sally's Mom's place of work, yet she mentioned mine. What is the difference? Hers was also public. She signs her name, she signs her dogs names and her kennel affix, she said she was a vet in a certain state and it was easy to find. It's all public access. It's not ok for me to mention her place of work but she can mention mine? Sorry but that's not right. 

Bottom line...there are way too many assumptions being made on this forum and you know what they say....Rumors you hear about me are as true as the rumors I hear about you. There may come a day when we need one another and these type of attacks do nothing to facilitate friendship.


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

Team Fulk that was a very interesting response to say the least. Quit while you are ahead really!!!! The point is you shipped Boss to GA to be bred knowing he had grade II elbow Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. The results were in I believe in Aug and you can verify this on the OFA site so you knew that he had grade II elbow but shipped him off to be bred anyway. The point is that you are a club "officer" yet you continue to do things that make others question your ethics. You posted the ad in Next Day Pets in Oct of 2012 to advertise a upcoming litter planned for 6/13/13. It is in black and white on public record. Good luck in your future and maybe one day you will learn to breed/show and in a manner this is honoring if not to the GRCA then at least to your own club BGRCA. 
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Honestly, saying anything to anyone mentioned in this thread is a waste of time. Again, good luck to teamfulk in the future I believe you may need it. FYI there is a grammer/spell check in word if you need it in the future .


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

*KALOC SAHAZI HOKUSZPOK put this name in OFA to pull up Boss's record.*


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## Julianne (Jan 12, 2013)

Why bother


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

For the record, I have NEVER mentioned anyone's place of work... I do not go there. My only comment to Wags100 was that his/her statement about OFA was incorrect in regards to posting clearances.... And I do go by the GRCA recommendations about clearances, Wags100. Wow the hostility. Why?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

wags100 said:


> Golden Jack Puppy.....if you do any due diligence in the UKC, you will find that there was not a breed club affiliation for the Golden Retriever whatsoever until ours was formed. That is the reason we formed a group. One did not exist. Much has been claimed, none of it with any credibility. Have you bothered to inquire for any information about the BGRCA or are you just making assumptions? Many of our members are also GRCA members. But the BGRCA is based off the ideals of the country of origin for the Golden. You know what they say about assumptions.


A breed club affiliation is not required to show in the UKC unless a rule has changed, literally, in the past month that I am unaware of. You said "Secondly it was formed as an avenue to show in the UKC." which to me implies without this club one could not show their golden in the UKC, which is untrue. Again, I don't know why a separate breed club needed to be formed to show in the UKC. If that was one of the main reasons I find it very very odd considering one could already show in that venue. 

As a matter of fact, I did look into the purpose behind the BGRCA several months ago. My impressions are from a number of BGRCA members' comments regarding the GRCA and people disussing the reasons for forming the BGRCA. It wasn't just pulled out of thin air. :wave:



> Bottom line...there are way too many assumptions being made on this forum and you know what they say....Rumors you hear about me are as true as the rumors I hear about you. There may come a day when we need one another and these type of attacks do nothing to facilitate friendship.


Well bless your heart. I think the old saying 'when you point a finger at someone else there are 3 fingers pointing back at you' rings true here. You made a number of assumptions about people in this thread, saying people were "threatened" but the English style of dog, assuming we haven't looked into the purpose behind the BGRCA, assuming we are lobbing accusations at all breeders of English style dogs, etc. I suggest taking your own advice.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I just re-read a number of the recent posts (including my own) and I think this thread has gotten way off topic and I'm not sure there is any way for it to come back around to the OP's topic. In an optimistic gesture, I will leave this open but I suggest that if there is a desire to continue discussion of the BGRCA and/or the various databases for clearances we start a new thread.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And I am angry at this point that I have been accused of writing things about Wags100, that I did not. What is my recourse? Do not even know if it is a he or a she let alone what the place of work is..... So,then is it slander?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> And I am angry at this point that I have been accused of writing things about Wags100, that I did not. What is my recourse? Do not even know if it is a he or a she let alone what the place of work is.....


It is clear that no place of work was mentioned in your posts.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wags100 said:


> You all told me it was not appropriate for me to mention Sally's Mom's place of work, yet she mentioned mine. What is the difference?


Where? You posted your own name and kennel name in your first post. _You_ made your personal information public, as you are welcome to do. I do not see where Sally's Mom did so.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

wags100 said:


> Angel Martin
> Goldensglen Goldens


This is presumably Wags100's name and place of business, posted by Wags100 herself. I don't see where anybody else posted this information before she did, or after, actually, though after would obviously be OK.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks, Tippy, I certainly did not search for info. Not my MO. And my place of work is not posted...on my info. That took sleuthing, again, why so much anger?


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## TeamFulk (Jan 14, 2013)

How could I attach a photo to a post? I would like to post Boss's OFA official Document/ with the envelope it was delivered in...


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## TeamFulk (Jan 14, 2013)

I was informed by my vet that an open Document should allow OFFA to tell a caller when the report date was. 
Here it is: Aug. 31, 2012. Date on Envelope (shipped to AK) Sept. 4th.
I will leave this thread now, as I truly believe it should be ended.
Kind regards,
April


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

As multiple posts have suggested, I am going to close this thread, which has gotten out of hand. If anyone questions why or needs recourse, please PM me. If there is personal information posted earlier in the thread you cannot edit and would like removed, let me know and I will remove it for you.

Lucy


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