# Alternative to Metacam? Also - heard of Tripsy?



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I can't really help you, except to say that my vet says that very low dose aspirin has had some good success with early stage kidney disease. It's quite low dose, you'd have to have your vet check it, but it's like 20 mg/day.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I can't offer much advice other than to say neurontin did nothing for my first golden. We got off of it and went on metacam. No kidney issues fortunately. 

If it is arthritis/hip dysplasia, and you have access to a good veterinary acupuncturist, I'd suggest trying it out. It helped two of my dogs' hip conditions. Our holistic acupuncturist is pretty well versed in supplements/herbs. Most who practice using the chinese techniques can give you good advice on them. Ours was first to tell me to go with a prescription medication to increase thyroid in my dogs because the supplements just don't work as well for hypothyroidism. There are also a couple of alternative medication books out there, one by Dr. Shaun Messoineir.


----------



## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I can't really help you, except to say that my vet says that very low dose aspirin has had some good success with early stage kidney disease. It's quite low dose, you'd have to have your vet check it, but it's like 20 mg/day.


Really! I'll definately check on that.

Dallas Gold, it's for hips and knees and general arthritis. Our boy is 8 but has had major orthopedic issues - severly broken leg before 1, 2 ACL surgeries and not the best hips.

We just want him to be pain free as long as possible and for the neurontin to not help with inflamation worries me. I want to hit the cause, you know?

Thank you both.


----------



## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

I have inflammatory arthritis (RA) and I take salmon oil capsules as it is known to reduce inflammation. On the advice of a homeopathic doctor I also started taking Bromelain (the enzyme in pineapples) which is supposed to be an anti-inflammatory. I have noticed an improvement since being on these supplements and have backed off my nasty meds. The salmon oil is good for dogs but you should check out whether or not they can take Bromelain. I did see an article on the net about Bromelain helping dogs with cancer but its best to check and be sure before giving it. Just a couple suggestions.


----------



## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Thank you, goldilocks. I'll definately ask about these 2 items as well. I always like to go in with both barrels.


----------



## k9mom (Apr 23, 2009)

Has Duke been tested for high blood pressure? When Nugget's test came back that she is in early kidney disease they took her blood pressure and she is now taking 2 blood pressure pills. Nugget also is taking a half baby aspirin for her kidneys.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I second what Goldilocks says about salmon oil. Our acupuncture vet recommends it, as well as fish oils and coconut oil for dogs. The coconut oil is for overall inflammation but is supposed to be particularly good for skin allergies. She recommended I give it to both dogs 5 days a week. You can get it at grocery and health stores. I found coconut oil capsules that I use now, to make it less messy (my guys eat capsules with their kibble). 

The acupuncture vet also prescribes some chinese herb formulations for the arthritis, hips and allergies and we alternate them between months. I have no idea exactly what is in them but they seem to work. 

She does chiropractic adjustments on Barkley to help his alignment but I wouldn't even attempt to do those myself. She does B-12 injections in certain points along his torso as well. 

She also taught us a little canine massage. I got a book (Tellington Touch) from Amazon about canine massage as well. Barkley loves it. I found one of those $10 massagers at Walgreens that I use to massage him. 

In addition we use the usual cosequin, chondrotin, msm supplements to help with the inflammation. 

I'll ask our acupuncture vet about the bromelin next visit (in a month) for dogs. I know it helps promote healing in people and heals bruises faster.


----------



## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

Adequan can be helpful. So can accupuncture, chiropractic care, hip replacement surgeries, gabapentin/neurontin, etc.

In the end though, it's really one of the NSAIDs (Rimadyl, Metacam, etc) or nothing. Believe me, I know: my three year old dog has severe arthritis/hip dysplasia/elbow dysplasia. In the end, you have to weight them being truely comfortable vs. having them around longer.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

neurontin (gabapentin) is a very specific drug. If he has nerve pain (from, for example a calcified disk putting pressure on his spinal cord, like my boy), it's the drug of choice. It's other uses are a bit more limited, although it works well for some dogs. The benefit is that the side effects are minimal, although it can make some dogs pretty sleepy and lethargic. It's an amazing drug for dogs who are epileptic and need pain control.
I understand your concerns about the kidney issues. We have the same issue with my 11-1/2 year old. We have to weigh benefit against the possible kidney/liver damage and try to do the most help with the least side effects. We just did some blood/urine work on him, and he has microalbuminuria with a slightly elevated urine pH, so the vet did a sterile drawn urine culture to be sure there wasn't a low level infection smoldering along (there wasn't). That's why he had made the comment to me about the aspirin. He also told me that rimadyl probably is no longer an option (that's what my guy takes now) if the microalbuminuria progresses or becomes overt proteinuria. 
There is some evidence, too, that calcitrol (sp? might be calcitriol), which is a form of vitamin D I believe, is pretty supportive of kidney function so that's something else you might ask your vet about. My cat takes it. We have to get it from a compounding pharmacy so we can get it in a tuna flavored oil, LOL. 
A final thought, please take this in the way it's intended, about using NSAIDS on the dogs. Sometimes they're the only thing that works. I agree with you about pursuing alternative therapies, but sometimes all they can do is reduce the amount of NSAID that you have to give, not completely replace the NSAIDS. Chiropractic adjustments help my boy BIG TIME, but they don't replace his rimadyl. BTW, the reason we give him rimadyl instead of gabapentin is it seems to work for him, we check his liver/kidney values every 4 months, and it has not negatively impacted them. He's had an elevated ALT for about 3 years now, not from the rimadyl. Gabapentin is very expensive compared to rimadyl, which is available in a generic form now.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

We still use rimadyl for our arthritic dog, but on the advice of his conventional and prescribing veterinarian we give him only 50 mgs twice a day, and *only* when he is in pain. He only weighs 57 pounds, on the low side anyway. Fortunately he's not in pain most days. We generally give him a week's worth of rimadyl every 12 weeks (and taper it down towards the end). He gets lab work done every 4 months or so. We have to do the urine sample at home and bring it in because he gets stressed at the vets and it always comes up positive for protein when the vet does it. He's not as stressed at home and no protein shows up--but I'm not sure what he is thinking while I'm following him around with a ladle to collect it. That would stress me! 

We used rimadyl on our first golden, then switched to neurontin and then to metacam. He developed liver issues due to the daily use of rimadyl so that's why we are more careful in dosing our current dog.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My boy is a lean 80 pounds (he's out-of-standard tall) and he gets 75 mg. of Novox (generic rimadyl) once a day in the mornings, every day, because he's in pain every day if I don't.
I had asked the vet about splitting it into 2 doses and he told me not to in this case. He said it's more effective as an anti-inflammatory to use it full dose once a day. (Although we use it differently, you use it as needed, I use it daily). 
My vet does have me give him both sam-E and milk thistle for liver support. He's a big believer in both if dogs are on long term NSAID therapy (he is not a holistic vet, however). We do blood work every 4 months. You might want to ask your vet about giving him sam-E and milk thistle, even though you give the rimadyl much less often.




Dallas Gold said:


> We still use rimadyl for our arthritic dog, but on the advice of his conventional and prescribing veterinarian we give him only 50 mgs twice a day, and *only* when he is in pain. He only weighs 57 pounds, on the low side anyway. Fortunately he's not in pain most days. We generally give him a week's worth of rimadyl every 12 weeks (and taper it down towards the end). He gets lab work done every 4 months or so. We have to do the urine sample at home and bring it in because he gets stressed at the vets and it always comes up positive for protein when the vet does it. He's not as stressed at home and no protein shows up--but I'm not sure what he is thinking while I'm following him around with a ladle to collect it. That would stress me!
> 
> We used rimadyl on our first golden, then switched to neurontin and then to metacam. He developed liver issues due to the daily use of rimadyl so that's why we are more careful in dosing our current dog.


----------



## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

Ha. Well. My girl gets between 150 and 225 mg of Novox daily and around 300 mg of gabapentin - I use the modifiers because I up the dosages with her pain level. She is approximately 75 lbs....

I really do think it's a quality of life issue. Do your qualms about using the NSAID outweigh his need for relief? Etc. Clearly, in my case (a three year old dog that needs that many drugs) my qualms were quashed.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

> Do your qualms about using the NSAID outweigh his need for relief?


Not in the least. My Barkley is doing VERY well with the combination of monthly acupuncture, massage, chiropractic adjustments, fish and coconut oils, B-12 injections, supplementation of Cosequin/Chondroitin/MSM, daily walks, and chinese herbs, all closely monitored by 2 veterinarians no less. I've had both vets comment that Barkley is looking and acting younger, not older, at age 12. 

We even consulted his regular vet about doing a vet stem transplant (she's certified) and she recommended against it due to fact the acupuncture and other things we are doing are working so well. 

If I feel or notice Barkley in pain (and believe me I know the signs) I start with the rimadyl immediately....no qualms whatsoever. It's just that both vets have cautioned me to not use it on him continuously so we have something to fall back on when he needs it. Barkley's quality of life is excellent.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think (and the OP, if I read this right, feels the same way) that we're all saying the same thing. We want to do the best thing we can for our dogs, with the fewest side effects. That doesn't mean we're opposed to NSAIDS (or stronger), just that, if something else will work AS WELL with fewer side effects, at least for a while, we prefer to try it first.
I resisted putting my dog on rimadyl at first because of his mildly elevated ALT (has to do with chronic IBD). The vet told me, look, you might shorten his life by 6 months with the rimadyl, MAYBE. But he'll enjoy what life he has left. Are you keeping him alive and miserable for yourself, or will you think of him and let him die a bit younger and enjoy his life? Made the choice ultimately very easy for me.
The difference in my dog on the rimadyl is like night and day, it has given him back ALL of his quality of life. He runs and plays like a young dog again.


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Teddi was dx with ED this past winter and my vet said put her on NSAID's. HUH??? She is TWO!!! I am very concerned about long term use with NSAID's. That being said, like others have said, there is a time when one must give them to relieve the dog of pain. 

For Teddi we went the management route and "so far" it is working. Now I don't think she has severe issues yet either. She already was on Cosequin DS, and 1000 mg of MSM. I figure when the time comes we can step up to Dausquin. We started all the dogs on salmon oil which I must say made good difference. We also started Belle and Teddi on Adequan injections. That made a big difference in Teddi, and a lessor difference in Belle but Belle's soreness was much more subtle to start. So far (knock on wood) we have not seen any soreness in Teddi. 

My hope is to put off the daily NSAID use as long as possible. I do give Belle 1 Ascriptin (Malox coated asprin) each morning of a trial. My vet said asprin can do serious damage to a dog or humans stomach, so you don't want to give a lot. He then said for a dog Belle's size 1 Ascriptin is a LOW dose and if she is doing fine on that continue. She actually seemed to be better on Ascriptin than she was on Previcox. Previcox worked well for Max and Teddi, when they have needed it or post op, so we use that. I haven't done Rimadyl, I have heard it is not great for labs. Don't know why, but I will stay away until I need it. If something else works, I will try that first.


----------



## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

Has anyone tried Elk Antler velvet? I seem to recall reading on one of my holistic lists that several people had had great sucess with it in their arthritic dogs. Just throwing it out there for those who want to research it.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

*Elk Antler velvet*

Funny this is mentioned. That is the one supplement my regular vet and the acupuncture vet disagreed on. I sided with the regular vet who was concerned with the risk of wasting disease getting passed on in the antlers being processed. The FDA doesn't regulate the supplement industry and there are no standards to ensure the safety of antlers being rendered. So Barkley was switched to another supplement.

I agree with Hotel 4 Dogs. We each try different routes for the comfort of our dogs. Some try the alternate routes first, others go directly into the conventional NSAID route. Whatever works best for your particular dog is what you should use. Barkley has a very sensitive stomach so NSAIDS will cause a whole host of other issues if I used them exclusively. I was skeptical about acupuncture but have used it successfully with 2 dogs now. I also started taking fish oils with my dogs and have reduced my arthritis dramatically. I am not on cosequin because it raises blood sugars in some people. What I do for Barkley is not any different from what I would do for myself. The orthopedic surgeon we consulted for our first golden actually injected adequan in himself for his knees--said it worked great, but it burned like the dickens. The point is to be broad-minded and think outside the box and maybe you can find the best solution for your own dog.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> Teddi was dx with ED this past winter and my vet said put her on NSAID's. HUH??? She is TWO!!!


Chance has been on Rimadyl since before he was a year old. Without it, he's in terrible pain. He has such severe ED, two vets said that surgery isn't even an option for him. One of those vets being from UC Davis.

Rimadyl has been his miracle. On bad days, I'll also give him Tramadol, which works for him as well. He has his bloodwork done every 6 months and so far so good. I could very well be shortening his life, but at least I know that his life will be as pain free as I am able to give him. As I'm writing this, he and Lucy are zooming around my livingroom. He could NEVER have done that if he wasn't on Rimadyl. 

But...this is my choice for my dog, and everyone has to make their own choices for their own pets. I just know that I will take quality over quantity anyday.


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

This is the second time I have heard about Adequan in humans and burning. My dogs react to the poke of the needle and nothing else. Now I do give it before bed the day they are supposed to get it. I must say it really does seem to work. I wonder if they human make up makes it burn or if it does on dogs too?


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

> This is the second time I have heard about Adequan in humans and burning. My dogs react to the poke of the needle and nothing else. Now I do give it before bed the day they are supposed to get it. I must say it really does seem to work. I wonder if they human make up makes it burn or if it does on dogs too?


The orthopedic surgeon that injected himself to test it out told us to immediately rub the injection site and have treats handy to distract the dog. I'm not sure if it's just something that burns humans and not animal tissues but just in case we did what we said. We consulted him twice for our first dog in the 90s, the first time when our dog was 4 and recently diagnosed with hip dysplasia. He took a look at the xrays and thought the dog should not be able to walk but he was greeted in the exam room with a dog that was wiggly and walked pretty good. Based on his physical exam (he said he never operates based on x-rays alone) he recommended the following:
1. Cosequin DS
2. MSM tablets (hard to find at the time)
3. Lots of Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids
4. Lots of straight line walking and swimming to keep the joints lubricated.
5. Acupuncture (hard to find in Dallas at the time)
6. A new veterinarian for us, closer to home, and more up to date than the veterinarian we were using (who touted himself as a holistic expert but never seemed to recommend any for our boy). The switch was definitely warranted.
7. Rimadyl only as needed--started out that way but towards age 11-12 he needed it more frequently.

This dog did great on all of the above. At one point at age 12 1/2 we consulted him again after our pup decided to take a flying leap off of a retaining wall (due to construction in our backyard the contractor had not put a gate back up to contain this) and sustained an elbow injury. He switched him to neurontin for a time for his hips/back issues instead of rimadyl due to elevated liver enzymes and it didn't work so we went to metacam after that until he died of cancer on his 13 1/2 birthday. At that visit he also recommended adequan injections and told us about his personal experience with it. We got our regular vet to teach me how to do the injections and I made sure to spoil him rotten after each one. I'm not sure it did too much for him though.

We haven't given our current 12 year old adequin, simply because everything else is working so well--he just bounded/ran upstairs to come say hi to me and look out the windows at birds! I just love these energetic seniors!


----------



## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Thank you, everyone. My desired end result is to give our 8 year old Duke as many pain free days as possible and not injure his organs. Period. Oh, and to keep us out of the poor house!

He's on:


Thyroid Medication for about 3 years - doing nicely
Was on phenobarb and it damaged his liver. He was ataxic and doing horribly - falling down stairs, stumbling, weaving - horrible.
now, because of that he's weined off completely the phenobarb and is on

potassium bromide
For his liver:
milk thistle
Denamarin


3 kinds of antihystamines
Vitamin E 1000 UI am
cosequin
25# dose of metacam from 45# dose (hoping to wein completely off I think) am
gabapentin 1 pm
Everything is 2x daily unless specifically noted am or pm.

So, as you can see, our boy is on a meriad of meds. And, we bathe him weekly for his skin allergies using Relief shampoo and a cortisone leave in rinse.

I am concerned that using the gabapentin is only masking the damage inflamation is doing to his joints. However, we simply cannot afford the accupuncture at $65 a crack, but am looking to keep his quality of life good.

About 6 months ago I started getting most of the meds on line. Just recently found out I can get the potassium bromide on line and am looking into that as well. I am saving easily $50-$75/month.

I thank you all for your input. I will compile all the suggestions into an easily read format and give them to the vet when we check his kidneys and liver again. Get her take on it. 

I'm a bit over whelmed with it all and my head is spinning a bit. I think he's comfortable and is swimming about 3x week right now. It's nice that we're above average on our rainfall here in Colorado so the lakes are nice and full whereas in years past there was no where to swim this time of year.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Duke's Mom:

It sounds like you are doing a lot to keep Duke feeling good. If I were to recommend anything that is relatively inexpensive it would be to add some fish oils (salmon esp) to the mix to help reduce inflammation throughout the body. Our vets have recommended this for all our dogs for years, including our dog without skin and orthopedic issues. The fish oils also help with the allergies. I gather since you are using 3 different antihistamines Duke has some major allergic stuff going on.

An one more point about the acupuncture-- a serendipity of sorts. We went in for hip/ortho injuries and discovered a few months later the allergies started to clear up dramatically thanks to the treatments and the added coconut oil the acupuncture vet recommended. Now we do either hip or allergy concentrated acupuncture each month--one month we may concentrate on the hips and the next month switch to allergies. We went on Monday and he was doing so well with his hips (he ran into the office and pranced around for them) we decided to do a general wellness for the hips but concentrate more on the allergies since cottonwood is out right now. We switched the supplements to an allergy formulation. 

The swimming sounds just perfect for the hips and also for overall well being! I know swimming destresses me and I bet it does the same for the doggies.

Please post later what your vet recommends.


----------



## kathyjohn2 (Aug 5, 2009)

*there IS a solution*

our dog was diagnosed with arthritis about a year ago and it was truly so painful to watch our once boundless energetic family dog become floor ridden. we tried NSAIDs and glucosamine but he didn't respond very favorably to either. i did a lot of research and started hearing about the clinically proven ingredient called CM8 and wanted to try it out.

you can read about its great properties here - http://www.getvetadvice.com/ - as well as purchase it online from this site. it's all natural, side effect free, and GUARANTEED to work or your full money back.

it really was a miracle. it took about 2-3 weeks for it to kick in but once it did, we haven't looked back. its been about 5 months since we first started administering it and it's been so incredible to watch our dog regain his energy and strength.

good luck!!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi and welcome to the forum! Please tell us about your golden retriever(s), and we'd love some photos of them!




kathyjohn2 said:


> our dog was diagnosed with arthritis about a year ago and it was truly so painful to watch our once boundless energetic family dog become floor ridden. we tried NSAIDs and glucosamine but he didn't respond very favorably to either. i did a lot of research and started hearing about the clinically proven ingredient called CM8 and wanted to try it out.
> 
> you can read about its great properties here - http://www.getvetadvice.com/ - as well as purchase it online from this site. it's all natural, side effect free, and GUARANTEED to work or your full money back.
> 
> ...


----------

