# Grooming Critique/Suggestions-Cooper's First Show



## Christen113

Cooper's first show is almost here. I've attached some pictures of him from this weekend. I met with a local breeder and got a really quick grooming lesson but if you have any tips or suggestions on how to improve his grooming or his overall look, I'd love to hear them. There appears to be a dip in the topline and I think it's due to hair because I don't feel anything structural...when I run my hand along his topline it feels good. I tried taking out some hair because there's a thicker bunch but that didn't seem to work so I think I'll try to fluff behind it. What about the feet and ears? He still gets sloppy with his foot sometimes and turns it out so I'm planning to make sure it's adjusted right before the judge walks by-sometimes it's perfect, sometimes he turns it out. Is that normal when they're a little easty-westy? Or does that hopefully indicate that he'll grow out of it? The vet and breeder still think once his chest drops it will be fine.


Now if I can just keep him semi under control in the ring


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## Bosn'sMom

he is gorgeous!


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## Daisy123

He looks perfect to me!!!


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## Christen113

Thank you both!


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## flatcoated

He is looking very nice, there is a lot to like about him! No advice, but good luck this weekend.


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## Rundlemtn

He's gorgeous! Can't wait to hear how he does at his first show! Good luck!!


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## Ljilly28

His face looks pretty. For his topline, use huge fabric safety pins, and pin an absorbent towel when he is still damp for a good while. I would leave more hair on his paws, and stack in a little bit so no "toe cleavage". and leave a little more on his hocks, but shape. You dont want that long straight severe line there. Try Thick and Thicker.


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## Christen113

Ljilly28 said:


> His face looks pretty. For his topline, use huge fabric safety pins, and pin an absorbent towel when he is still damp for a good while. I would leave more hair on his paws, and stack in a little bit so no "toe cleavage". and leave a little more on his hocks, but shape. You dont want that long straight severe line there. Try Thick and Thicker.


Thank you! I didn't take anything off his hocks but they're not brushed up in this picture which might make a difference so I'll be sure to pay attention to that. I'll definitely try the Thick and Thicker.


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## HiTideGoldens

I think Jill was referring to the hair on the top of his feet. It looks like it was trimmed down pretty far. Be careful trimming the topline. I have been learning to groom and trim for the show ring for about 5 years and I still need to *back away from the thinning shears* at times. When in doubt, stop trimming!  I would not trim any more on the topline but try pinning the towel around him to get that wave to lay flat. But it's not a huge deal, if anything it will camouflage the dip if you fluff it up a bit. Overall you did a good job!


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## Alaska7133

Young dogs are so hard to groom. I groomed a 6 month old boy for a show last month. He was so bouncy it was hard to keep him in one place long enough to do much with his ears! Your guy looks a little more relaxed, which is nice. But he probably didn't start off that way during the grooming session.

I think the dip in his topline is temporary, his rear legs are growing a little faster right now, so his hips are a bit high. I think he'll grow out of that. I agree with the other comments about wrapping a towel, thick and thinner, and not trimming his toe fur so short. Although you may not have trimmed his toe fur and it's just naturally shorter this summer. Either he doesn't have much fur on his rear hocks yet, or you trimmed a bit too short on top. The outline of his pads is very nicely done. If you wash him again, before he's dry, put some colesterol on his paws and back blow the fur. That will give what ever lift is available to the fur making his paws more rounded.

Be ready to have fun in the ring with him. He might surprise you on how well he does. My girl's nephew got a BOB in the 6-9 month puppy class last year. So you never know... He sure is a nice looking boy!


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## Christen113

I appreciate the tips! I probably took too much off his feet so in the future I'll be more careful on that. Does anyone have a good foot tutorial? I'll have to go back to my Erik Strickland video but he does it with straight scissors. I liked the Eric Salas video best but it's been taken down. 

We'll try the towel on the topline. That's a good idea. Fingers crossed!

I'm sure this is a stupid question-but do you have to enter the ring in the order of your armband? Let's say I'm 15, am I stuck going in behind 13 and in front of 17? Or can everyone just line up?


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## Alaska7133

You will be called by armband number in order. If you are the only dog in your class, be prepared to go back in the ring for best of winners. That's the competition for all the dogs that won their various classes. I have no idea how big your class will be. But if you win that class and get a blue ribbon, hang around nearby and wait to re-enter the ring again for BOW competition. When you re-enter for best of winners competition, just wait for the ring steward to call your number. It gets too confusing sometimes to figure out what order you enter, so just wait for the steward to call your number and enter when called. Side note: If someone doesn't show, the steward is required to call that number 3 times before marking them absent for the judge.

For feet: Golden Retriever puppies:Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA)ACQUIRING A GOLDEN RETRIEVER: GROOMING TUTORIAL - FEET

I practice on my non-show goldens when I'm grooming. Sometimes I warm up on another dog before I work on my show dog especially if it's been awhile since I've groomed last. The other dogs don't care if they look a bit shall we say "odd" after I try some new technique on them. Then I can see how much I need to clean up an ear. Or how sharp those scissors really are.


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## Ljilly28

This is close to how I do feet on Mystic and Lush- some people prefer less foot but I really dont like to see the whole toe or the nail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ajwKrgWvIM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWPxLE5G8Gs


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## Ljilly28

Alaska7133 said:


> You will be called by armband number in order. If you are the only dog in your class, be prepared to go back in the ring for best of winners. That's the competition for all the dogs that won their various classes. I have no idea how big your class will be. But if you win that class and get a blue ribbon, hang around nearby and wait to re-enter the ring again for BOW competition. When you re-enter for best of winners competition, just wait for the ring steward to call your number. It gets too confusing sometimes to figure out what order you enter, so just wait for the steward to call your number and enter when called. Side note: If someone doesn't show, the steward is required to call that number 3 times before marking them absent for the judge.
> .


Also if you get 2nd in a class, stand by the ring and pay attention lol in case the winner comes from you class, bc then you have to jump back in for Reserve.


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## Christen113

Right now there's very little polish or pizazz and this is going to be a major learning experience for both of us. We've got one more class tonight and then we'll just do our best. The sweepstakes has surprisingly low entries-a local breeder told me I should definitely enter since there would be more "people like me" ha! so I did but I'm not sure why there are 82 entries overall and only 12 entered the sweepstakes....


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## Alaska7133

Thanks for the reminder Jill! We had a dog last weekend start limping in Group. Too late for another dog to go in his place. I'm not sure if the BOB dog could have been pulled by the owner before they got excused in the Group ring, I'm not sure on the rules. Then another dog would have gotten BOB and gone on to Group, I think? But things do happen.

Also if you do get points, make sure to check the tear sheets to make sure they were recorded correctly. You can check at the superintendent table.


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## Alaska7133

Wow that is a lot of entries! Holy cow! We never get entries like that, ever... I would be lost in a sea of goldens. Up here we all know each other and it's all very social because we all know each other. Very small town feel. I hope you have fun!


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## Christen113

Alaska7133 said:


> Wow that is a lot of entries! Holy cow! We never get entries like that, ever... I would be lost in a sea of goldens. Up here we all know each other and it's all very social because we all know each other. Very small town feel. I hope you have fun!


It's a little daunting...and it's frustrating because most of the shows around here have huge entries. I've seen a couple that "only" had 27 but it seems like the local shows average about 50 entries. I'd love to find a small show to get my feet wet! Oh well  Go big or go home!


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## Alaska7133

Wow our specialty had 27 dogs and we were so excited since we haven't seen those kinds of numbers in a long time! It puts it all into perspective I guess. In a ring with a lot of dogs, you'll have time to play with your dog and enjoy your time. In a ring where you are the only dog, you are under the judge's microscope the whole time, which can be good or bad.


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## Megora

I bow to the others here as far as grooming tips, but about the topline... I've been told NEVER use any blades on the fur there. Even Mars strippers. To get the topline straight/smooth - you have to train the fur there to lie flat. It's easier with more adult dogs whose coat are definitely "in" and you aren't dealing with the puppy ripples anymore.... but blow it backward and blow it back straight until completely dry. Start from the rear.

Don't stress if not perfect. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQT5h5eLJNc 

^ This is basically how I trim feet.


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## Christen113

Megora said:


> I bow to the others here as far as grooming tips, but about the topline... I've been told NEVER use any blades on the fur there. Even Mars strippers. To get the topline straight/smooth - you have to train the fur there to lie flat. It's easier with more adult dogs whose coat are definitely "in" and you aren't dealing with the puppy ripples anymore.... but blow it backward and blow it back straight until completely dry. Start from the rear.
> 
> Don't stress if not perfect.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQT5h5eLJNc
> 
> ^ This is basically how I trim feet.


Thanks for the video. I had no idea about not even using the stripper-which I did. Thankfully not much came out but I'll just use the towel from here on out.


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## Kmullen

Houston show is so much fun!!! Hide away your pocket book!!! Seriously, it is a HUGE show!! Love going! Good luck!


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## flatcoated

Christen113 said:


> I Does anyone have a good foot tutorial? I'll have to go back to my Erik Strickland video but he does it with straight scissors. I liked the Eric Salas video best but it's been taken down.



I was going to recommend the Salas video this morning before you posted this, but I looked high and low for the link and then gave up. FWIW, I find that I get the best results by combining elements of the advice from Strickland and Salas. I don't like how much hair Eric Strickland takes off the foot, but I think the terrier pad he uses is an absolutely brilliant tool. If you combine the right terrier pad with Eric Salas' technique of "cutting in a box" or whatever phrase he used for defining the foot, you can get lovely, clean tight looking feet that don't look like they've been over-trimmed.


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## hotel4dogs

The bigger shows draw the best judges, and the good dogs have the best chances of winning, so don't be daunted by it.
The smaller shows tend to have judges who can't pick out a good Golden in a line up of bulldogs, so they put up the flashiest and/or hairiest dog in the ring. 
Stick to the big shows!




Christen113 said:


> It's a little daunting...and it's frustrating because most of the shows around here have huge entries. I've seen a couple that "only" had 27 but it seems like the local shows average about 50 entries. I'd love to find a small show to get my feet wet! Oh well  Go big or go home!


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## Christen113

flatcoated said:


> I was going to recommend the Salas video this morning before you posted this, but I looked high and low for the link and then gave up. FWIW, I find that I get the best results by combining elements of the advice from Strickland and Salas. I don't like how much hair Eric Strickland takes off the foot, but I think the terrier pad he uses is an absolutely brilliant tool. If you combine the right terrier pad with Eric Salas' technique of "cutting in a box" or whatever phrase he used for defining the foot, you can get lovely, clean tight looking feet that don't look like they've been over-trimmed.


Thanks! Someone on Facebook knows Salas and tagged him and apparently he's editing videos and it'll be back up in the next few weeks. 



We finally had a really good class. He was happier, tail wagging and ears up and I felt more comfortable. Fingers are crossed!


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## Alaska7133

hotel4dogs said:


> The bigger shows draw the best judges, and the good dogs have the best chances of winning, so don't be daunted by it.
> The smaller shows tend to have judges who can't pick out a good Golden in a line up of bulldogs, so they put up the flashiest and/or hairiest dog in the ring.
> Stick to the big shows!


Hey Barb you know that's not true. Gloria Kerr came to judge our March cluster in March of 2013. She gave me my first blue ribbon. Debbie Claussen came this June to judge our specialty. In years past we have had some excellent judges. And some not so great judges. But don't write off the small shows so quickly. especially small specialties like ours up here.


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## K9-Design

I'm quite comfortable using thinning shears on the topline. After doing the whole wrapping, conditioning, blah blah blah that takes forever and hardly works, I had a handler fix Fisher's poofy hair over his withers in about two seconds with some thinning shears. Not something a newby should do a day before a show but -- with experience it's quick and easy. I think your pup looks great. Just use some mousse or stickum on that little dip behind his withers, and comb the rest of it down. Have fun! Good luck!


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## hotel4dogs

Ah, but those are *big* shows in your area. It's all relative. There are a few shows that will only draw a handful of dogs in this area, and those are the ones to avoid. 



Alaska7133 said:


> Hey Barb you know that's not true. Gloria Kerr came to judge our March cluster in March of 2013. She gave me my first blue ribbon. Debbie Claussen came this June to judge our specialty. In years past we have had some excellent judges. And some not so great judges. But don't write off the small shows so quickly. especially small specialties like ours up here.


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## Christen113

Debbie Claussen is one of our judges today. Fingers crossed!


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## K9-Design

There are equally bad judges at big shows.  And there are some bad ones at little shows. Just depends who is on the panel. I am likely to take a risk and enter under a judge who has never judged in my area, just to see what they do. Have found some good ones like that!!! 
In general my dogs have done VERY well under breeder judges. As in, multiple specialty majors for every dog I've finished. However there have been breeder judges I thought should fit right in the groove and really like them, and cannot find them AT ALL. Gloria Kerr is one of them! She couldn't find Blade in a class of 4 and she didn't give Bally even reserve in an entry of about 6 dogs. NO idea why. But that's dog shows for you.


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## Loisiana

The Houston whatever-they're-called-now shows are an experience unlike probably any other dog show you'll ever go to. Conformation, obedience, agility, flyball, barn hunt, weight pull, freestyle, disc dog, Meet the Breed, My Dog Can Do That and shopping shopping shopping.

Fewer and fewer people are entering though. It's just so expensive. $12 to park? (and that's for every time you enter the gate, not per day). $32 entries. Expensive food that isn't very good. Many good vendors have stopped going due to the expense to have a booth there. And the public comes out in droves on the weekend, most with their own pet dogs. I try to get out of there before the weekend hits, as I don't like crowds and the grass is so nasty by that time my bitch won't even walk on it.

Today should be relatively quiet, it's just specialties today and not all the events have started yet


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## Christen113

We took 2nd in class in the sweeps and then got 1st under Debbie Claussen. Not too shabby for our first time!!


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## Ljilly28

I think a truly good conformation dog is one who can be shown to all comers& appeal to many different judges in a schedule and not have to follow around a handful of judges who like the style- niche into which the dog falls. A dog like that will have many basic virtues regardless of style like nice straight legs, a strong short back, clean correct movement etc- the basics of a good dog. If a dog is found by breeder judges, all around judges, judges at small shows and judges at big shows without making a huge effort to handpick, then to me that is a fun conformation dog who has the chops to hold his/her own in any company. I always look at a dogs record to see if they have been repeatedly exhibited to the same judge(s).


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## Ljilly28

Christen113 said:


> We took 2nd in class in the sweeps and then got 1st under Debbie Claussen. Not too shabby for our first time!!


Wooo hoooo congratulations!!!


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## HiTideGoldens

Ljilly28 said:


> I think a truly good conformation dog is one who can be shown to all comers& appeal to many different judges in a schedule and not have to follow around a handful of judges who like the style- niche into which the dog falls. A dog like that will have many basic virtues regardless of style like nice straight legs, a strong short back, clean correct movement etc- the basics of a good dog. If a dog is found by breeder judges, all around judges, judges at small shows and judges at big shows without making a huge effort to handpick, then to me that is a fun conformation dog who has the chops to hold his/her own in any company. I always look at a dogs record to see if they have been repeatedly exhibited to the same judge(s).


I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a number of factors that play into dog shows and who wins on a given day. Typically professional handlers will handpick the shows they go to by picking judging panels where they have a shot at being successful. Although they are showing most weekends, that doesn't mean they are not handpicking the judges they show to. Picking to go to one show over another on a given weekend is still picking.

An owner handler, or breeder owner handler can be at a disadvantage under certain judges, especially judges with minimal experience in the breed - that's just the way it is. Many also do not have the ability to show every weekend, so they pick the judges they think they have a shot under. 

The gist of this is that I don't think that makes the dog with a professional a better dog.


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## HiTideGoldens

Christen113 said:


> We took 2nd in class in the sweeps and then got 1st under Debbie Claussen. Not too shabby for our first time!!


Awesome!!!!! Huge congrats! And good luck in winners!


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## Kmullen

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a number of factors that play into dog shows and who wins on a given day. Typically professional handlers will handpick the shows they go to by picking judging panels where they have a shot at being successful. Although they are showing most weekends, that doesn't mean they are not handpicking the judges they show to. Picking to go to one show over another on a given weekend is still picking.
> 
> An owner handler, or breeder owner handler can be at a disadvantage under certain judges, especially judges with minimal experience in the breed - that's just the way it is. Many also do not have the ability to show every weekend, so they pick the judges they think they have a shot under.
> 
> The gist of this is that I don't think that makes the dog with a professional a better dog.



Agree with this. There are judges out there that couldn't see a good dog if it slapped them in the face. It is just the way it is. So, why would I waste my money? My girl KC, for instance, I do have to look at judges because she is not "pretty with a lot of coat" she is a 1/3 of the way to her CH by looking at judges and we haven't done many shows at all.


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## Megora

Hate to say this but the 2 times we had a judge looking only at handlers and not the dog (several people including other judges saw this too, wasn't just me), they were pretty big shows. I just blew off a show for next weekend because it is one of those judges again. If local show , I'd do it for fun. But this is 3 hours away.


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## HiTideGoldens

I agree. And this is not meant to knock the big pros. I have used them, and honestly, when looking at shows for my dog currently with a well known pro, I worry about the judges less. When showing Roxy myself going forward it will be a different story, even though she does seem to appeal to a variety of types of judges at this point.


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## K9-Design

kfayard said:


> Agree with this. There are judges out there that couldn't see a good dog if it slapped them in the face. It is just the way it is. So, why would I waste my money? My girl KC, for instance, I do have to look at judges because she is not "pretty with a lot of coat" she is a 1/3 of the way to her CH by looking at judges and we haven't done many shows at all.



Haha yes at the moment KC is "pretty with no coat"

or is that "pretty much no coat"

yikes

I always scope out a judge before I enter. It's just way too expensive to enter for the heck of it unless the show is in my back yard (I only have two shows available to me that are less than an hour's drive). Know your dog. Try to find a pattern of type/style the judges put up. The more you get out there and show the more you'll recognize these trends. It's funny, recently in looking at results of certain judges on their past assignments in Florida, the only thing I could discern is that they really liked Jane Myers  (She is a field rep now so no longer handling.) haha

I too have mixed feelings on chasing judges around. I think it would put the judge in an odd position, and makes your dog look suspect, like he couldn't win under anyone else. Then again if a judge gives you a single point at a small show, you better bust your hump and show to them again if they are judging where there is likely to be a major. That's just smart!


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## Alaska7133

Christen113 said:


> We took 2nd in class in the sweeps and then got 1st under Debbie Claussen. Not too shabby for our first time!!


Congratulations!! 

Debbie was up here last month judging our specialty. My girl got Reserve. She told me later it was due to her being in hard working condition. She said she wanted to put up another prettier girl for reserve, but that other girl was not in good condition. So she felt that conditioning trumped being pretty. 

I liked all of Debbie's choices. And she withheld some ribbons as necessary and didn't award them just because they were on the list to be handed out.

I do like judges who can also judge other things like: hunt tests, field trials, obedience, rally, etc. Judges that only do conformation are a bit narrow in focus. 2 years ago we had a specialty judge that I can't quite remember the name of. She was judging at GRCA national in 2013 also. But it was nice that she could judge both obedience, rally and conformation for our specialty.

We have a sporting judge up here that can do sporting group conformation, retriever field trials, and pointer hunt tests. Nice to have a judge that can do variety and see dogs working.


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## Alaska7133

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a number of factors that play into dog shows and who wins on a given day. Typically professional handlers will handpick the shows they go to by picking judging panels where they have a shot at being successful. Although they are showing most weekends, that doesn't mean they are not handpicking the judges they show to. Picking to go to one show over another on a given weekend is still picking.
> 
> An owner handler, or breeder owner handler can be at a disadvantage under certain judges, especially judges with minimal experience in the breed - that's just the way it is. Many also do not have the ability to show every weekend, so they pick the judges they think they have a shot under.
> 
> The gist of this is that I don't think that makes the dog with a professional a better dog.


I totally agree. I'm in Alaska. We have 7 clusters a year, which is actually 17 individual shows/year. That's it. That's within 7 hours of driving from my house. At every cluster it seems we have a herd of pros fly in and handle dogs on a first come first serve basis. They follow judges as best I can tell. I know breeders that fly up with a bunch of dogs and just take a look at which group of pros came up and select ringside who they want to handle their dog. They generally base their knowledge of the judge's personal preferences and the pro's experience with that judge. Sometimes that group of pros will have a herd of dogs they bring up to show, sometimes they come without dogs. I'm not in the know, so I really don't understand how it all works. Sometimes these pros only show in the Group ring. It's kind of funny to be at a show all day watching the rings, then all the sudden at Group, a whole new set of pros shows up. Anyone else have that experience? When I watched Westminster on tv, I noticed quite a few of these pros that have come up here, in the show ring at Westminster.

Now I'm on the hunt for a pro to show Lucy at national in Open. With only one Alaska cluster left between now and national, I'm guessing she won't be finished unless some miracle happens.


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## Ljilly28

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Typically professional handlers will handpick the shows they go to by picking judging panels where they have a shot at being successful. A.


We have different perspectives. A top all breed professional handler could never handpick judges for a golden (unless that was their top priority) Because they exhibit specials of many breeds, that would be a road to disaster and resentments between the owners. If they have the #1 Newf, the # 1 Pyrean Shepherd, the #5 lab, the #7 chessie, a corgi and an eskie special as well as a golden special, there is just no way they could follow or handpick judges for each special wonderful dog. Therefore, the schedule tends to be the same or similar year to year, and they must take on board dogs they feel are competitive enough to have a broad appeal.


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## cubbysan

Congratulations on your placings!!!


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## Alaska7133

So where are the photos? :--big_grin:


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## Christen113

My husband took a few- I need to go through them. Thank you all! I am just on cloud 9  So exciting and such a fun way to start out!!


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## Christen113

Most of these are pretty blurry, he was trying to stay out of his line of sight, haha. I am just so crazy about this dog and so excited that this first time went so well-for both of us....and we took first over a pro-HA!! The toy he's playing with is one of the two he won today-talk about a happy pup!!


Thanks again for all of your tips and advice!


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## Simona Arian

He looks so so so beautiful! What a handsome pup


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## Alaska7133

He looks fabulous! That building is so huge! You handled your guy yourself right? Good for you to do so well in such a large class as an owner handler. I'm impressed.


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## Ljilly28

Congratulations! The photos are fun to see, and give the sense of how huge the show. Your pup is so pretty.


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## HiTideGoldens

Great shots! He is very cute!!!


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## HiTideGoldens

Ljilly28 said:


> We have different perspectives. A top all breed professional handler could never handpick judges for a golden (unless that was their top priority) Because they exhibit specials of many breeds, that would be a road to disaster and resentments between the owners. If they have the #1 Newf, the # 1 Pyrean Shepherd, the #5 lab, the #7 chessie, a corgi and an eskie special as well as a golden special, there is just no way they could follow or handpick judges for each special wonderful dog. Therefore, the schedule tends to be the same or similar year to year, and they must take on board dogs they feel are competitive enough to have a broad appeal.


Definitely different perspectives, probably based on our own experiences. But my point was more related to the distinction between a pro showing a dog and an owner handler or breeder owner handler in terms of handpicking shows/judges.


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## Christen113

Alaska7133 said:


> He looks fabulous! That building is so huge! You handled your guy yourself right? Good for you to do so well in such a large class as an owner handler. I'm impressed.


Thank you!! Handled and groomed by yours truly! I'm quite pleased with myself and my sweet little boy!! We went to our education booth afterwards and he got loved on by all the golden lovers-he was just in heaven! And thank you for all of your advice (everyone!)-I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!


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## Christen113

Ljilly28 said:


> Congratulations! The photos are fun to see, and give the sense of how huge the show. Your pup is so pretty.


Thank you!! I'm just crazy about him  And thanks for all of your tips and advice as well!


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## Rundlemtn

Congratulations!! Well deserved  I have no doubt he will continue to do well in the show ring!


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## Ljilly28

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Definitely different perspectives, probably based on our own experiences. But my point was more related to the distinction between a pro showing a dog and an owner handler or breeder owner handler in terms of handpicking shows/judges.


Did your hander handpick judges for your dogs? That is amazing if so. I havent been in that position, ever. It would be sweet! 

I do agree a breeder-owner-handler has a much easier time handpicking judges for one dog or for a class dog. Pro handlers have to concern themselves with their priority specials in an organized pecking order understood by all the owners way before any class dog or bitch or especially a puppy.


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## HiTideGoldens

Ljilly28 said:


> Did your hander handpick judges for your dogs? That is amazing if so. I havent been in that position, ever. It would be sweet!
> 
> I do agree a breeder-owner-handler has a much easier time handpicking judges for one dog or for a class dog. Pro handlers have to concern themselves with their priority specials in an organized pecking order understood by all the owners way before any class dog or bitch or especially a puppy.


This is getting off track. No, they wouldn't handpick judges for a class bitch or dog. But they will pick judging panels and pick circuits/weekends/judges where they have a stronger likelihood of success. I just don't see that as being different than an owner handler, who usually shows much much less than a professional, picking circuits/weekends/judges where they have a likelihood of success. And my secondary point was that it doesn't make the dog with a professional a better dog.


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## Megora

Ljilly28 said:


> It is a question of extremes. Whether owner handled or pro handled, I dont like to see an exhibitor win most of his/her points under just a few judges they seek out over and over, year in and year out, and follow around- that goes for pro handlers and owner handlers equally.


Tiny thing, but some more proficient handlers need fewer shows to CH a really good dog and then they are out. Not everyone is interested in the politics of campaigning a dog beyond the CH. 

Other thing is why waste your money showing to a judge who will not like a more moderate dog - which is generally the reason why people are very selective about judges. 

I'll give you an example - there is a husband and wife team who everyone in the local golden world hates because they have been caught being very political. A lot of your pro handlers avoid showing to them because they can't get these judges to look fairly at the dogs. Some handlers, don't have a problem showing to these judges because for whatever reason they win under these judges.


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## Ljilly28

goldenjackpuppy said:


> This is getting off track. No, they wouldn't handpick judges for a class bitch or dog. But they will pick judging panels and pick circuits/weekends/judges where they have a stronger likelihood of success. I just don't see that as being different than an owner handler, who usually shows much much less than a professional, picking circuits/weekends/judges where they have a likelihood of success. And my secondary point was that it doesn't make the dog with a professional a better dog.



This is off track bc my initial point was that it is telltale if a dog can only win by doggedly following a small handful of judges, and a few judges appear over and over again on the record. Conversely, it is nice to see when dogs hold their own for a wide variety of judges.


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## Ljilly28

Christen113 said:


> Thank you!! I'm just crazy about him  And thanks for all of your tips and advice as well!


It is going to be fun and a breath of fresh air to follow your journey! Thank you for sharing the photos and the before & after.


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## HiTideGoldens

Ljilly28 said:


> This is off track bc my initial point was that it is telltale if a dog can only win by doggedly following a small handful of judges, and a few judges appear over and over again on the record. Conversely, it is nice to see when dogs hold their own for a wide variety of judges.


Right, but my point was that it depends on who is showing them if that is the case. I also think some people, myself included, have little to no interest in campaigning a dog - EVER. So if I have a dog shown as a special it will be when I think he/she has a good shot at winning. Or when I can be there to do it myself. There is a breeder who lives on the western side of the US (trying to be vague intentionally) who we often joke enters her dogs when she knows they will win. And she is usually right. She is not at tons of shows but her dogs typically clean up when she is. She spends her time and money carefully, and there is nothing wrong with that. But a quick glance at the dogs' win records may suggest that they are not quality dogs. When, in fact, her dogs are lovely correct dogs. They are just not "out" much.


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## Ljilly28

Well, a classic case of agree to disagree- that's what keeps a forum interesting.


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## sdhgolden

Congrats on your success! This show is huge! I'll be there tomorrow. So fun!


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## Christen113

sdhgolden said:


> Congrats on your success! This show is huge! I'll be there tomorrow. So fun!


We will be too! What are you participating in?


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## flatcoated

So how was the rest of the weekend? Cooper really is lovely. Look forward to hearing more about your journey together.


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## Christen113

I loved the experience minus waking up at 4 and 5AM to get him groomed and ready for the show. We finished 1, 2, 3, 3 in our class overall. My husband took pics our last day and his movement definitely wasn't as fluid (I'm sure it was handler error-leash was too tight maybe? He hopped a few times so maybe I slowed too much?) so I think she judged correctly. Overall, I am so pleased with the way everything went. Cooper seems to love it (particularly all of the crowd attention-he just cuddles right up to anyone that pays attention and is the people's choice for sure) and I felt like the judges were fair. I didn't feel like there was a huge handler bias based on the name/face....when they won, they won because they were able to make their dog look better. I beat the same dog one day with the first place win when Clint Livingston had to send his assistant in-and I'm sure Clint was able to handle the dog better with 30 plus years of experience the other days. I didn't feel too bad losing to someone that regularly wins at Westminster. Obviously Debbie Claussen was my favorite since she gave me first place. On the final day we showed I came in 3rd but I watched that judge send David Harper (and another handler) out of the Weimaraner ring ribbonless before me so I felt great about my 3rd and felt like we earned it. I was quite literally the only non professional handler after the sweepstakes so I think I did a pretty good job holding my own. At a couple points prior to the show I felt like I should have just hired a handler or skipped it all together since we really weren't ready. I REALLY wanted to start out with a ribbon and preferably a first place. I'm glad I stuck it out, attended all the classes, worked with him and it paid off. I'm just elated that we did as well as we did and I'm still excited over our blue ribbon--and it's much sweeter when it's a total newbie owner handled blue ribbon over a professional!!


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## Rundlemtn

Wow Christen, sounds like you and Cooper did amazing! You should be really proud for doing so well in his first competition! I am very impressed!! You both will go far together!!


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## Alaska7133

I'm impressed!! In such a large venue with so many top dogs and top pro handlers you definitely stood on your own two feet. I hope that you continue to handle your puppy boy. He's obviously a very good dog and should be in the ring with the blue ribbon and then of course purple and onward. I hope you continue to have fun and show your boy. Please let us know how it goes! Hope you see that Ch or even GCh in front of your dog's name!


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## sdhgolden

Christen113 said:


> We will be too! What are you participating in?



I was just volunteering in obedience and agility ?

Congrats on a successful weekend!


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## K9-Design

Woo-hooo WAY TO GO!!! So glad your first experience was a good one!
OWNER HANDLERS ROCK! You'll be all the happier knowing you could do it yourself! So when's your next show?


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## flatcoated

So great! Really hope you have fun with it and keep at it rather than handing him off at some point. You're obviously doing a great job with him and working hard at learning the ropes, and it looks like Cooper is a dog whose qualities will shine through and speak for themselves. I think politics in judging gets too much air-time. True, you will run into a judge here and there who spends too much time looking up the leash, but I think most are trying to do a good job, and the pros are ultimately the ones who benefit from all the talk about how hard it is for an owner-handler. The only way to learn is to get in there and do it, and you are so brave to debut on such a big stage. I think you're going to have a ton of fun with him!


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## Christen113

Right now it's looking like our next show will be in October. There aren't many shows close by until then and then there are several in October/November. I'm looking forward to it! It'll give us some time to keep going to classes and take a private lesson. It looks like the October show has a Novice Owner Handler class-would you do that or puppy? He'll be in 9-12 then.

Honestly, the people that I've heard talk about how political it is didn't have the best dogs (at least in my opinion) so I'm not surprised it took a heavy hitting handler.


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## Christen113

Okay, I have another brag now that all the results are posted. I told everyone we got 1,2, 3, 3 with the same dogs competing each day. When I got 1st, Clint had sent in his assistant to show the puppy and then we lost to him when Clint Livingston was showing. Welllll--I just looked up the overall results and that puppy took Reserve Winners Dog and Clint won the entire sporting group with his Brittany. Cooper only lost to 2nd best of 82 dogs and beat him one day!! And he sent his assistant in but the results show I beat Clint  Woo Hoo!!!!!!!!


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## Megora

Christen113 said:


> Right now it's looking like our next show will be in October. There aren't many shows close by until then and then there are several in October/November. I'm looking forward to it! It'll give us some time to keep going to classes and take a private lesson. It looks like the October show has a Novice Owner Handler class-would you do that or puppy? He'll be in 9-12 then.
> 
> Honestly, the people that I've heard talk about how political it is didn't have the best dogs (at least in my opinion) so I'm not surprised it took a heavy hitting handler.


Sounds like you have got the bug!  

I'd show in 9-12! Definitely. One thing I was thinking about when you showed the pictures before... I don't know if Cooper has the coat that I see on some young dogs here, but his face is worth a million bucks. You have judges looking especially at the overall picture of the dog and expression, and that may definitely give you an advantage with those judges.  

The latter point - I'm not sure I agree with 100%. I'll be honest that I don't think politics is as prevalent as some make it out to be. My feeling is that if that were the case, then putting the time into grooming and training and presentation would not make any difference. 

I do believe that there are really good judges out there who are giving every dog out there in the ring a chance to "keep" their eye on. 

I also believe that there some really good judges who are looking for something especially which lets them forgive a dog not showing very well. A good example is my dog has decided he loves judges and insists on turning his head and looking up at them and trying to steal kisses instead of baiting very well. Which shows his temperament and sweetness, but doesn't show his head - which he has a really nice head. The ability to win on some days when your dog is not the best behaved dog in the ring - it either gives some people something to gripe about... or taken differently, it shows that a nicely put together dog has a great chance at winning on any given day. 

The "not the best dogs" being a shoe-in with heavy hitting handlers, I don't think that's always the case - even though I'll wager that people send some dogs out with big name handlers because the dogs have a better chance with those handlers than with lesser known handlers. I know I've easily beat dogs with those really big handlers... when the judge is looking at the dogs and not the people. My feeling is that even though judges are not supposed to "judge faults" out there, there is no reason a dog with tear streaks (and clearly loose eyelids) or a dog with very light eyes should beat a dog of a similar style who does not have those faults. 

But politics definitely is an issue when it comes to some judges. I've seen it a couple times. Not always judges being rude or overly blatant about it. As I said, I had an opportunity to drive 3 hours out of my way to show to somebody this weekend, and I let that entry go when I saw the judge. The judge was somebody who was distracted when doing the exam on my dog and turned his back to look at the other dogs when I was doing my down and back and he should have standing there to see my dog's movement going away and coming back. 

I asked a friend who is a pro handler (and a really great golden guy) what I did wrong as far as having a judge tune me out. And this friend simply said that every judge that weekend was political and they were looking at the dogs handled by people they knew. And he said - that he usually does well with these judges, because they see him all the time. And this was right along the lines of what I've been told by others.


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## Christen113

I'd have to agree about Cooper's face and expression  It's my favorite feature by far-and something that I think a surprising number of goldens are lacking now. That said, there were a ton of simply stunning dogs at the show. As for the coat, all the 6-9 month puppies had very similar amounts of coat but I think Cooper actually had the most feathering….but clearly a far cry from the more mature dogs that were just dripping in coat.

I'm sure that there are certain judges that are very political and I'm too new to all of it to really be able to give an opinion one way or another. I’m basing this off several breeders in my area that like to complain nonstop about how it's just so political and you can’t win without a huge handler-and the one I'm thinking of in particular has dogs that just don't stack up to the competition (in my opinion)-but she was able to do pretty well and attain championships with a heavy hitting handler and campaigning. Her dog isn’t bad by any means, but I think in this case she played the game and won (and based on conversations, I think she’d agree). I went to another show and the judge was extremely elderly and kept putting up the first few dogs that entered the ring-EVERY SINGLE TIME. That day, it looked like it was just luck as to where your number fell.

The main advantage that I see to a handler (at least in my position) at this point is that they're just better at making the dog look good-but that comes with time and experience.


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