# Ethical or unethical that is the question



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't know how 'ethical' it is but I'm sure it happens all the time, part of the politics of conformation!

I know here, there were a lot of dogs put up who were too leggy and had very gay (as in over the back) tails for a while. All out of a well known sire who also had the same tail issue. Puppies get put up who are very very fluffy and not always the best example of the breed but have the right person on the other end of the leash. And in some cases there are breeders having tantrums on the outside of the ring after judging because their dog didn't win, or doing other strange things that make you wonder....

In the end it's up to that judge as to what they see as the best examples, without you being able to feel and check on the dog and know what that judge looks for over other things, it's sometimes a big gamble and one dog can win one day and the other dog wins the next...


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I think another word for that may be "kennel blind". 

The judge does not know the names of the dogs, but if I as a novice recognize certain dogs and lines - I am sure the judge is familiar with MOST of the dogs and handlers.

Also, a judge may pick a dog for a really stupid reason, I once heard an interview with a judge, and when asked why he picked one dog over another, he said the dog just reminded him of his childhood dog.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

If you have to ask if it's OK to show to a judge, it's probably not a good idea to.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I had a thought this morning about this thread and a previous one. Taking out the question of whether the dogs should have been entered, because that seems to be the actual question here and I think they likely should not have entered, but if the judge hadn't put up the bitch out of her lines, wouldn't that have been kind of strange? Not to say that bitch deserved/didn't deserve to win (since I clearly wasn't there and it's totally subjective), but I remember in another thread there was a comment about breeder judges who don't put up the style of dog that they breed. It seems to me that it it would be odd if there is a bitch in the ring out of the judge's lines (and everyone knows it) and she puts up another dog. I don't think it's fair to the other exhibitors at all and certainly should not be the only reason for putting up a dog (IMO), but in a vacuum it makes sense to me. Of course she likes her style of dog, so she put the bitch up over others. Am I crazy?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I had a thought this morning about this thread and a previous one. Taking out the question of whether the dogs should have been entered, because that seems to be the actual question here and I think they likely should not have entered, but if the judge hadn't put up the bitch out of her lines, wouldn't that have been kind of strange? Not to say that bitch deserved/didn't deserve to win (since I clearly wasn't there and it's totally subjective), but I remember in another thread there was a comment about breeder judges who don't put up the style of dog that they breed. It seems to me that it it would be odd if there is a bitch in the ring out of the judge's lines (and everyone knows it) and she puts up another dog. I don't think it's fair to the other exhibitors at all and certainly should not be the only reason for putting up a dog (IMO), but in a vacuum it makes sense to me. Of course she likes her style of dog, so she put the bitch up over others. Am I crazy?


No you are right on. This is why it's not a good idea to show to people like this, i.e. owner or breeder of the sire, or grandsire or whatever. It's a no-win situation. If you win, everyone accuses you of cheating and it looks unethical for the judge to have put the dog up. But if the judge (whether on purpose or he just plain old doesn't like the dog) DOESN'T pick that dog, then it's a real slap in the face to the dog's owner. Nothing good can come of it.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I actually emailed the AKC about this exact situation. Cherie Berger, who owned Selli's father was judging Goldens at a show and I wanted to know if I was allowed to show under her. They wrote back that there are no rules prohibiting my showing under her, but it was in a gray area ethically and the rep stated it was best to stay out of ethical gray areas. I did not enter that show.


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## jtom (Jan 31, 2011)

The thing of it is the dogs she put up compared to the bitches where totally different and not consistent. I also found out the she put another bitch out of the same lines up for reserve as well.

There was discussion about this judge at the show and many exhibitors have decided to not show under her again.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

When a club chooses the judges for their shows, are they usually local or do they fly them in from a distance?

I would think if the judges are local, this might be an issue that happens quite often.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Something interesting. After looking up this bitch on K9data.. there are more questions then answers. Why would you show a dog with hereditary cataracts?? She is also almost 6. The gossip is that the judge got confused and put up the wrong bitch. That's the gossip going around anyway.

Weather I believe that or not I'm still on the fence.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I know numerous people who have finished hip dysplastic dogs. Years ago, in the Golden Retriever Review, I read an interesting interview with Laura Kling. Among other things was a discussion about her choice to breed Ch. Aspenglo's Angelfire in spite or despite of her hip dysplasia. She of course was the dam of many champions with many clearances.
Is it up to the judge to know who is clear and who is not?


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

WOW!! I would never breed a dog/bitch that dose not pass one or more of the recommended tests. It my not be that particular dogs offspring that might be affected it is future generation that would have to worry. How are we as good reputable breeder setting our selves apart from BYB if we do this? IMO we are not!!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Something interesting. After looking up this bitch on K9data.. there are more questions then answers. Why would you show a dog with hereditary cataracts?? She is also almost 6. The gossip is that the judge got confused and put up the wrong bitch. That's the gossip going around anyway.
> 
> Weather I believe that or not I'm still on the fence.


I completely missed something. What bitch?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I completely missed something. What bitch?


You're not alone, I'm totally confused. Are jtom and whiskey creek goldens the same person?


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

No, we are not the same person. jtom has to be someone who was at the Albany Oregon show. I was there with Mia so I already know who jtom was talking about. 

I took the time to verify what was being said I found out that the best in breed bitch for that day was indeed sired by the judges dog. I also found that she has hereditary cataracts. So I asked the question way would you show that bitch??? 

You can look it up for yourselves and come to your own conclusions.


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## bla89 (Jun 3, 2010)

Everything that I have been told is that showing a dog in conformation is very political. Some judges don't like a handler or a judge does like the owner handling the dog, this that and others. I have been showing my dog because I have a better bitch that my handler like to show, because she will be finished quicker. I am showing my dog because he is going to take longer to finish and I want the experience in the ring. I know he is not the greatest dog out there, but I want the ability to try to show him and be able to say that I got a point on him. Also, I have talk to my breeder of my bitch and handler about the politics. They continue to encourage me to continue showing my dog, even if it takes years to finish him, because they want me to be able to be thrown into a ring with a very high quality dog and be able to place them. After all that spill, the whole thing that I have learn is it is all politics and it is either a really good day or a really bad day to show.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A key word in this thread is "gossip". My suggestion is don't. Don't do it and don't listen to it.

As for politics, of course there is some. But, more often than not, it is not as rampant as some (particularly those who say "I hear that dog shows are political" but have never themselves participated) might like you to believe. More people than not abide by unspoked rules and traditions and do NOT show to judges who they have purchased a dog from, co-bred a dog with, use a stud dog owned by, sold a dog to, or handled a dog for. And most judges will discourge people with such relationships with them from showing to them. Not everyone is "politcal", or corrupt. Anyone remember watching Peter Green dismissing two exhibits in the Terrier Group in 2009? That handler used to be part of The Green Team, and was leasing Peter's kennel from him - it was a conflict of interest. The handler knew he'd be dismissed from the group. The owners wanted the prestigious Breed Win. I would have chosen not to show them at all, because it meant that someone else who could have had a shot at a Group placement would have been able to show to Mr. Green. 

This game is too expensive, IMO, to just "play" anymore. Knowing the style that a judge likes is helpful when making entries. Making sure that your dog is in as good condition, groomed as impeccably, and trained as well as the handler's dogs allows even an owner handler to be competitive (as long as your dog truly is a good dog). 

Owner handlers and pros have been competing in the same ring forever, and owner handlers do very well, if they aren't just pulling King or Fluffy off the couch on Friday after laying there all week, giving him a quick bath, and expecting him to win.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> No, we are not the same person. jtom has to be someone who was at the Albany Oregon show. I was there with Mia so I already know who jtom was talking about.
> 
> I took the time to verify what was being said I found out that the best in breed bitch for that day was indeed sired by the judges dog. I also found that she has hereditary cataracts. So I asked the question way would you show that bitch???
> 
> You can look it up for yourselves and come to your own conclusions.


If I'm looking at the same dog....punctate cataracts are NOT HEREDITARY although they are a breeder's option. 
Retinal folds (breeder's option) are not an issue in goldens although retinal dysplasia is (CERF fail).
It is NOT against AKC rules to show to the owner of your dog's sire provided they are not the breeder of record.
As far as showing a dog that doesn't pass a clearance -- I guess we won't be showing any dogs under the age of 2 then? No more puppy classes, yay!

Edit : We were looking at different bitches -- the bitch in question has no CERF and just "hereditary cataracts" in her K9data field. My bad.


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

I thought it was automatic grounds for a DQ to have the judge associated with the dog/bitch in any capacity. But I've only attended some shows, never entered.

I know the clue I belong to strongly discourages it.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Here are the rules for judges, including those on conflicts of interest and gray areas (thanks PG  ) http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/REJ999.pdf

FWIW, a 'conflict of interest,' as defined in the rules, exists when a judge is influenced by any relationship or factor other than the merit of the dogs. So it's really up to the judge to make that determination, but what actually qualifies as a 'conflict of interest' is entirely subjective with the exception of the examples given in the rules (a relative, employee/employer, co-owner, friend you travel with to dog shows).


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> I took the time to verify what was being said I found out that the best in breed bitch for that day was indeed sired by the judges dog. I also found that she has hereditary cataracts. So I asked the question way would you show that bitch???


Because they want to? There are people that show clearly pet quality dogs; people that show dogs with HD/ED; people that show aggressive goldens, etc. 

Until AKC makes some sort of litmus test other than a sound, unaltered dog, they can continue showing whatever dog they want to show.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

gabbys mom said:


> Because they want to? There are people that show clearly pet quality dogs; people that show dogs with HD/ED; people that show aggressive goldens, etc.
> 
> Until AKC makes some sort of litmus test other than a sound, unaltered dog, they can continue showing whatever dog they want to show.


I _personally _would not show a dog that I knew had not passed a clearance, and I _certainly _would not show a dog that had any aggression or other temperament issues. As I said, it is just too expensive to play the game anymore. I personally, as much as I love to show, do it as a means of evaluating and "proving" my breedings. However, it is a "sport", and there are people who just_ like_ to show their dogs; they like the atmosphere, or have juniors, etc etc. There are no rules that only dogs that will be bred can be shown, and there are no rules that only dogs that have clearances can be, either.

It all goes back to anyone who is looking to purchase a dog doing their homework in regards to the health history/clearances, etc, behind ANY breeding they are considering, and not just assuming that because the breeder shows, it's a given. There are plenty of "breeders" out there who go to a match and get a ribbon. So, they "show". Or, they've gone in the ring at a sanctioned show. So, they "show". Or, they get a "championship" from one of the alternative "registries" (which pretty nearly any dog that can stand up can earn). Now, they have champions.

Fun and games.


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