# Always quit on a success



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

This was really brought home to me today in training. Tito thinks we quit on a success, but we didn't. And it really made me realize how important it is to quit on a success, because I have to admit I came away from training today feeling discouraged and frustrated, and when I reflect on it (it's a long drive home!) I realized it was because, although he did several things really, really well, the LAST thing we did he totally bombed so for ME we didn't quit on a success. When I realized how bad it made me feel, it made we realize how critical it is for our dogs that they quit on a success lest they come away feeling like I did.
Started training with a quick review of the iron cross, which he did 100%, so we moved on to water right away. Dan believes that you should review the skill on land and then move right away to water, so we did some lining and casting on the cheating pond. I have to say I was really pleased with how well Tito responded to the sit whistle in the water, and to the casts. He also took great casts into the water from various points around the side of the pond, and didn't turn the wrong way even once on a right back or left back cast into the water, or while in the water. So that was good.
On to the channel, and he ran a couple of de-cheating marks. Also did a fantastic job with that. Well, he stopped to grab a mouthful of something or other growing in the water on the way out, but other than that, did a really nice job.
We jumped into the birdmobile and headed out to the field, where Dan had set up his training session for his in-house dogs. He had 6 wingers set up around the field, at distances which varied from 30 to 150 yards. The wingers were very well hidden behind trees, bushes, etc. I had a hard time picking them out in the field. (Question for those who know...would this be a typical set-up in senior, where you can't see the winger/gunner station at all?). There were no holding blinds (hiders Dan says) in the field.
First we ran a couple of singles, and Tito totally stepped on the marks. Did a fantastic job, knew right where they were (that's important in a minute).
Then we ran a couple of doubles. Well, I should say, we attempted to run a couple of doubles. Apparently somewhere along the line Tito's memory ran out of his butt and is lying on the ground somewhere, because it sure isn't in his head anyplace right now.
That's why I said that the excellent marking is important, because it's clear that the problem wasn't his marking, it was his memory.
The first double was very, very hard (according to Dan) and they actually ended up moving the memory bird before he planned to run the set-up with his other dogs, who are much more advanced than Tito. The problem was a knoll between Tito and the memory bird, Dan said if you got down to the dog's level you couldn't see where the bird went down at all. 
So okay, he's forgiven that one. Actually did a pretty good job. Dan has his assistant well hidden in the field, and when Tito started a pretty big hunt he had his assistant (Roger) help him find it. 
But the next two that we ran were nowhere near as difficult, and Tito had a major problem with the memory bird and had to be helped both times. I felt very disappointed in him, and frustrated. It wasn't lack of focus, it wasn't lack of marking, it was just that he clearly didn't remember where it had gone down. I can't even say that it was a consistent problem, as on one he overran it, but on the other one he just didn't really head off on the right line. 
So we've been given some drills to work on, Dan says there's a "deficiency" there due to a "lack of balance in his training" because we've been working so much on lining and casting. 
This of course was pretty much the last thing we did, and I came away feeling disappointed in him and frustrated. Tito thought he was successful because Roger helped him as needed, and he didn't know he had "failed".
Well, we did do some real short casting to a bird that Dan had left lying in the field, a true blind. He did *okay*, but only *okay* on it. I had to laugh, Dan said, "he's taking casts and directions really well". Thanks Dan, at least you found someting positive to say, LOL.
So the drills....
We're to try to do a lot of marks in the next couple of weeks. Dan says 45% of them (he likes numbers, lol) should be just plain singles, but go ahead and make them difficult, as his marking has been good.
Another 45% of them should be what Dan calls "broken singles", which are singles in which I am to break his focus before I send him out. For example, the easiest ones are where the mark is thrown, then instead of sending him I take 3 steps backwards, have him heel back, take another 3 steps backwards, have him heel back, and then send him. This is to break his focus but not take him off the line. He says to read the dog, if this is too easy for him, have him do a pivot to the left or right, then pivot back to the original line and send him. Progress to heeling him a short distace away, then back to the original line. And so on. Thus broken singles.
The final 10% should be true doubles. Since Tito has a tendency to be a head swinger, we only want to do 10% true doubles. And of course, we mix up the order, maybe a single followed by a double followed by a broken single, etc. And for now, the doubles are to be kept real easy to get his confidence up. And mine, I suppose.
Took some videos today, but didn't think there was anything worth posting. Just some shaky videos of a good looking dog having a great time!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

If you were always perfect would you learn anything? Sometimes my best lessons are the ones that I felt I was just out of it, when I was riding. Good, and great all the time are great, but what do you do when a problem arises how do you learn to deal with it? Sounds like another great day to me.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Well...I know nothing about any of this, but do enjoy reading Tito's threads. I do know, however, that every lesson I've ever learned came at the expense of a mistake...mine or another's. Tito will get this in time, he's THAT smart and THAT determined. Cheer up Mom.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Have you ever had an off day? They happen. For dogs too.

Your post made me sad. You have a wonderful dog. Why spend energy being disappointed in him? He still went out and played the game. He still enjoyed himself. And i the end, he didn't fail. He found the bird. Even if he needed help, he found the bird. How is he supposed to view that as a failure?

Tomorrow is another day. Don't be so hard on yourself or your dog. 

And it's funny... the timing of this thread ... I'm working on an article for WDJ about frustration in training ... and one of the things I'm adding in the editing phase is how, according to Bob Bailey, there's no scientific research to support the idea that an animal will learn faster when you make sure to end on success. However, I personally feel, and your post supports, that ending on success is more important psychologically for the handler. So ... don't sweat it. According to research, it won't impact your dog's long term ability to successfully master this particular field exercise.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

You can also try doing the singles back to back bird in mouth. You can also do the singles as a baby double. Shoot the mark throw one short mark off to side (just toss it). Then go pick up the single. If he head swings on the doubles send him as soon as head moves on the first bird, delay the second bird down.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Steph, I needed that. But I guess I didn't make clear, Tito didn't view it as a failure at all. As far as he was concerned, he got to go get the bird, came back with it, and had a blast doing it! It was ME that was disappointed, not him. He had no clue that he had *failed* in any way.
For your article, from the handler's point of view, I think finishing on a success is huge. If these events had happened in reverse order, I think I would have come away with a totally different perspective.
Bridget Carlson tells you, when you come out of the ring/field and are disappointed, stop immediately and think of 3 things that your dog did right, even if they seem minor. Then dwell on them. I did that in the car on the way home, and came away from it feeling better.
I don't know if a dog learns faster if they end on a success, but I do think there's more to training than how fast the dog learns. How the dog feels about himself (confident or not) is important, too, and I think, JMO, a dog that ends on a success is more confident the next time around.




FlyingQuizini said:


> Have you ever had an off day? They happen. For dogs too.
> 
> Your post made me sad. You have a wonderful dog. Why spend energy being disappointed in him? He still went out and played the game. He still enjoyed himself. And i the end, he didn't fail. He found the bird. Even if he needed help, he found the bird. How is he supposed to view that as a failure?
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

LOL, your memory is better than mine and you weren't even there today, Dan did tell me to do the bird in mouth singles (we did one before I left), and the baby doubles. Thanks for reminding me!



Radarsdad said:


> You can also try doing the singles back to back bird in mouth. You can also do the singles as a baby double. Shoot the mark throw one short mark off to side (just toss it). Then go pick up the single. If he head swings on the doubles send him as soon as head moves on the first bird, delay the second bird down.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Barb,
If every training session goes perfect you are not training. You are just playing games with your pup. In my opinion.
I think you should leave thinking about what you need to do next.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Well now you have something to work on. If he is always perfect, your training may progress too quickly. Enjoy the ride!

Edit: RadarsDad and I were typing at the same time ;-)


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Sounds like an incredible session; and like others have posted sometimes it is the mistakes that are the greatest lessons. I am sure Dan did not feel frustrated 

And about the wingers & gunners being completely hidden, I can't speak to SH but can tell you I've certainly been seeing it in JH land.

I hope you found 18 things to celebrate with Tito and not just 3


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

paula bedard said:


> Well...I know nothing about any of this, but do enjoy reading Tito's threads. I do know, however, that every lesson I've ever learned came at the expense of a mistake...mine or another's. Tito will get this in time, he's THAT smart and THAT determined. Cheer up Mom.


Same here. I hope next week's lesson is even better and this week's disapointment becomes a small memory in the recess of your mind.:crossfing


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

were they hidden in blinds, or totally hidden in the field? Just curious because these were totally hidden in the field, Dan doesn't normally put blinds out. When you looked around the field, you would have no idea that there were wingers anywhere. (talk about bad memory, I had to ask Dan where the memory winger was.....) For example, in the "lots of hunt tests this weekend" thread, the photos that you and Laura posted had very very obvious blinds in the middle of the field. That's consistent with what I saw in juniors, I was curious if the wingers/gunners are behind obvious blinds in senior, too.




Sunrise said:


> Sounds like an incredible session; and like others have posted sometimes it is the mistakes that are the greatest lessons. I am sure Dan did not feel frustrated
> 
> And about the wingers & gunners being completely hidden, I can't speak to SH but can tell you I've certainly been seeing it in JH land.
> 
> I hope you found 18 things to celebrate with Tito and not just 3


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

hmmm, I am reading all your great responses and thinking perhaps I gave the wrong impression. I didn't come away thinking he's an awful dog, I need to put him up for sale, just feeling a bit disappointed that he didn't do as well as I would have expected him to. He did better than I would have expected on the casting/lining on the water, so I guess I'll keep him


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ah we love Tito. Besides, who really wants a perfect dog?


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> but I do think there's more to training than how fast the dog learns


Your right it's how* WELL* they learn it. Marks suffer with more blind work. Blind work suffers with only marks.
I have been told by more than one person (pro's) for every problem you fix you usually create another and to watch for it.



> Apparently somewhere along the line Tito's memory ran out of his butt and is lying on the ground somewhere, because it sure isn't in his head anyplace right now.


Now that's funny!! I like that one. I'm gonna use that one at a training day on Gunner
But were you looking to see what might have him confused him,or what was affecting him to cause it to fall out.

If he's for sale I got first dibbs!!

I was disappointed with Gunner today on mark over water. He wouldn't go get it.
Until I tried figure out *why* he wouldn't go get it.
1. Bumper to large noticed him having a little difficulty on previous one (water down his throat)
2. He couldn't see it land. I am a lot taller than he is. What looks easy to me is a lot more difficult for a 13 week puppy. Being in sight is critical for him right now.
3. Missy had blocked him twice from going in although he went around her.

So the only person *I* should be disappointed in is me for throwing that mark. Now I have to work to correct it and build his confidence back up.
Hope this helps just trying to throw some things out that might help.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks Steph, I needed that. But I guess I didn't make clear, Tito didn't view it as a failure at all. As far as he was concerned, he got to go get the bird, came back with it, and had a blast doing it! It was ME that was disappointed, not him. He had no clue that he had *failed* in any way.
> For your article, from the handler's point of view, I think finishing on a success is huge. If these events had happened in reverse order, I think I would have come away with a totally different perspective.
> Bridget Carlson tells you, when you come out of the ring/field and are disappointed, stop immediately and think of 3 things that your dog did right, even if they seem minor. Then dwell on them. I did that in the car on the way home, and came away from it feeling better.
> I don't know if a dog learns faster if they end on a success, but I do think there's more to training than how fast the dog learns. How the dog feels about himself (confident or not) is important, too, and I think, JMO, a dog that ends on a success is more confident the next time around.


I understood you -- that Tito didn't think it was a failure. I was saying, why would he? He found the bird. Finding the bird is not a failure. The only failure was that he didn't find the bird YOUR way. You seemed frustrated that he had no idea he was wrong and instinctually speaking, he wasn't wrong. HE FOUND THE BIRD. So now you just play with tweaking things a bit so that he can go back to successfully finding the bird YOUR WAY.

Saying "faster" was probably a weak paraphrase. I'm actually awaiting an email from Bailey to clarify b/c this is something I heard him say several years ago when I was at a chicken camp. Not sure the best adjective to insert there ... faster, better ... and then, of course there's the idea of how do you define "better?" I'd lean toward saying a fluent behavior is a better behavior, etc.

I like the three things done right quote. Good one!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Oh Barb, that dog just is not going to work out for you. You can just put him in the back of my truck.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hm, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to be clear because your opinion matters to me. My frustration wasn't that he had no idea he was wrong. I don't want him to think he's wrong when doing this, this is a confidence building exercise and that's why we get the bird boy to help out, we don't ever want the dog to think he's wrong when doing this. I was just disappointed that he was so clueless on something he has previously done very, very well on.
I'll look forward to your article, they are always so good!



FlyingQuizini said:


> I understood you -- that Tito didn't think it was a failure. I was saying, why would he? He found the bird. Finding the bird is not a failure. The only failure was that he didn't find the bird YOUR way. You seemed frustrated that he had no idea he was wrong and instinctually speaking, he wasn't wrong. HE FOUND THE BIRD. So now you just play with tweaking things a bit so that he can go back to successfully finding the bird YOUR WAY.
> 
> Saying "faster" was probably a weak paraphrase. I'm actually awaiting an email from Bailey to clarify b/c this is something I heard him say several years ago when I was at a chicken camp. Not sure the best adjective to insert there ... faster, better ... and then, of course there's the idea of how do you define "better?" I'd lean toward saying a fluent behavior is a better behavior, etc.
> 
> I like the three things done right quote. Good one!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, and I'm sure the root of the problem is that we've spent all of our training time on lining and casting, so the marking/memory have fallen off. Well his marking has been excellent, which is another reason I was so surprised that his memory was gone.
I did wonder what was throwing him off, because whatever it is, I need to train for it. 
Obviously I plan to do the drills that Dan advised, to back up and simplify, and I am thinking he will recover his memory pretty quickly.
But I see you understand my disappointment. You throw something you think the dog should be able to do, they can't, and you feel disappointed that it didn't go well. It's probably a really good thing it happened while at Dan's, as he wasn't at all upset by it, and just told me how to work on it. If it had happened here I probably wouldn't have known what to do, or even how to help him succeed for that matter.




Radarsdad said:


> Your right it's how* WELL* they learn it. Marks suffer with more blind work. Blind work suffers with only marks.
> I have been told by more than one person (pro's) for every problem you fix you usually create another and to watch for it.
> 
> 
> ...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> were they hidden in blinds, or totally hidden in the field? Just curious because these were totally hidden in the field, Dan doesn't normally put blinds out. When you looked around the field, you would have no idea that there were wingers anywhere. (talk about bad memory, I had to ask Dan where the memory winger was.....) For example, in the "lots of hunt tests this weekend" thread, the photos that you and Laura posted had very very obvious blinds in the middle of the field. That's consistent with what I saw in juniors, I was curious if the wingers/gunners are behind obvious blinds in senior, too.


In my last test, 3 out of the 4 stations were completely hidden behind bushes and trees. The station that was visible in my picture was the live flyer station down the hill  In the picture with 2 marked, the 2 is near the bushes that hid the 2nd mark station. The bushes and trees in the first picture on the left that formed an alley (probably not the right word) between them - the station was on the left side of the alley behind the trees/bushes while the bird landed beyond the trees in the clearing - the picture does not show it so clearly but the gap provided an opening that was between the trees towards the water where the bird landed - the gap between the the bushes where the bird was visible was perhaps 10 feet.

I have to confess to feeling a bit surprised at how visible those stations were in Laura's pictures, but then Faelan sometimes sights off the stations and blinds so it was just as well perhaps. 

There were additional rock outcroppings and tree/bush stands in the fields as well. But yes, you could not see the wingers or stations until the bird was released. The judges had the gunners use their duck calls -> call, pause, call again to help all the dogs locate their mark.

Edit: I think the setups may also reflect the real hunting conditions the varying areas of the country have..


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Sharon, in 3 of our 4 land series they were quite visible, in 1 they were not. In the water series, 2 of the 4 were quite visible.
The first one we entered the holding blinds were very visible, and Tito had never seen one! Big hole in the training!




Sunrise said:


> In my last test, 3 out of the 4 stations were completely hidden behind bushes and trees. The station that was visible in my picture was the live flyer station down the hill  In the picture with 2 marked, the 2 is near the bushes that hid the 2nd mark station. The bushes and trees in the first picture on the left that formed an alley (probably not the right word) between them - the station was on the left side of the alley behind the trees/bushes while the bird landed beyond the trees in the clearing - the picture does not show it so clearly but the gap provided an opening that was between the trees towards the water where the bird landed - the gap between the the bushes where the bird was visible was perhaps 10 feet.
> 
> I have to confess to feeling a bit surprised at how visible those stations were in Laura's pictures, but then Faelan sometimes sights off the stations and blinds so it was just as well perhaps.
> 
> There were additional rock outcroppings and tree/bush stands in the fields as well. But yes, you could not see the wingers or stations until the bird was released. The judges had the gunners use their duck calls -> call, pause, call again to help all the dogs locate their mark.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I think each setup has its challenges


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> Yes, and I'm sure the root of the problem is that we've spent all of our training time on lining and casting, so the marking/memory have fallen off. Well his marking has been excellent, which is another reason I was so surprised that his memory was gone.


Chill out Barb you are doing great!!!! Tito is in good hands!!

Never did answer the question about visible guns. From here on you will have gun stations hidden whenever possible. Point is,you will see a lot more of them.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Hm, I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to be clear because your opinion matters to me. My frustration wasn't that he had no idea he was wrong. I don't want him to think he's wrong when doing this, this is a confidence building exercise and that's why we get the bird boy to help out, we don't ever want the dog to think he's wrong when doing this. I was just disappointed that he was so clueless on something he has previously done very, very well on.
> I'll look forward to your article, they are always so good!


Ok. Got it. I had misunderstood you. I thought you were frustrated b/c he had no idea he was wrong -- almost like a missed chance at a correction, or that he got to self-reward for doing it wrong. That's where I kept thinking, "but if he got the bird, he wasn't wrong ... he just didn't do it your way."

Yeah. I understand the disappointment thing. I'm getting it every few training sessions right now. Today our gloves exercise "broke." I'd pivot to #2 and he'd fly out to #3. :doh:

I've come to realize that dogs who are generally "easy" and excel at things are their own special brand of challenge. They trick us into thinking they will just continue to buzz along that quick-to-excel route, and at least for me, I often forget that just because he appears to "know something" early on (in some cases, surprisingly early on), I do us a disservice if I ride on that and don't continue to train to the degree that I would if it was something I viewed as more challenging for him.

And I think it's normal for some things to appear to be solid long before they really are. I lost track of how many times I thought he really, truly had verbal left and rights for agility ... and then he'd show me he didn't *really* have them quite yet.

Thanks for the compliment on my WDJ stuff! Really appreciate it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You are 1000% correct about the "easy" dogs being a special brand of challenge. Your observation is very astute and well put. We (I) tend to push them too fast, because we think things are more solid than they really are. When we have a dog who will, as my agility teacher said about Tito, drive headfirst thru a brick wall if you ask him to, we (I) tend to mistake willingness for solid understanding. 
And then when we (I) bump into something that they don't learn instantly, we feel surprised and maybe even a little let down. 



FlyingQuizini said:


> Ok. Got it. I had misunderstood you. I thought you were frustrated b/c he had no idea he was wrong -- almost like a missed chance at a correction, or that he got to self-reward for doing it wrong. That's where I kept thinking, "but if he got the bird, he wasn't wrong ... he just didn't do it your way."
> 
> Yeah. I understand the disappointment thing. I'm getting it every few training sessions right now. Today our gloves exercise "broke." I'd pivot to #2 and he'd fly out to #3. :doh:
> 
> ...


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> They trick us into thinking they will just continue to buzz along that quick-to-excel route, and at least for me, I often forget that just because he appears to "know something" early on (in some cases, surprisingly early on), I do us a disservice if I ride on that and don't continue to train to the degree that I would if it was something I viewed as more challenging for him.


They are very quick to pick a concept, especially a pup like the one you describe. You move on and have not solidified the concept you intended to teach. They got it right enough times to satisfy your criteria so you move on. Also some will also learn to think ahead of you and anticipate what the next task is that you want them to do. I often will move a step or two back and repeat certain drills. Especially the older they get. I also believe they will ignore or blow off a cast on purpose. Then you have to stop and RESOLIDIFY if you get my drift.

Then of course they are always subject to pulling a "Tito" and leave something out of their head on the ground behind them.:doh::doh:


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