# Shaving your Golden



## breec3

My instructor tonight was going over grooming, and she said that her parents have a golden and they shave there golden four times a year.

I told her that I have read that it was not good to shave your golden because of the under coating.

I am wondering what everyone's opinion is on shaving your golden?


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## Jo Ellen

I wouldn't shave mine. I love her coat. It's a little extra work in the summer to help her stay cool but it's manageable. We just seek out water -- the local lake is a perfect playground when she needs to stay cool.

My golden had knee surgery a year ago (January 07). Her butt feathers are almost grown back to where they were before they shaved her. It's taken that long. I can imagine that a golden who is shaved 4 times a year never has the coat that nature intended for them. Such a pity, such a beautiful coat!

:wave:


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## Pointgold

I am adamantly opposed to shaving double coated breeds. The undercoat acts as insulation. Goldens are like the dog du jour up here. :doh: And a lot of people shave them. From personal experience, having managed a boarding/grooming/trainining operation for many years, most of the people who do are just too lazy to comb/brush their dogs. Sure, some say "Oh, they are cooler in the summer." Why then, do they shave them in the winter as well? I've seen shaved Newfs, Collies, Samoyeds, Malamutes, even Labs. I've seen many of them sunburned, as well. THey are meant to have a double coat for a reason.


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## Jersey's Mom

Nooooooooooo!!!!! Sorry, couldn't help myself... but I am 100% against shaving a golden retriever. If I wanted a dog with a short coat, I would have bought a lab or something along that line. While there are legitimate reasons to shave the dog (like to treat a really bad skin infection, or if the dog's been neglected and is hopelessly matted) there is absolutely no reason for the average golden owner to do it. The coat functions not only to keep them warm in winter, but it helps cool the body in summer and protects the skin from sun damage. Brush your dog frequently and just enjoy the beauty of his or her coat!

Julie and Jersey


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## Celeigh

I think if you need to shave your dog regularly you picked the wrong dog for your lifestyle or your climate. I can see shaving a rescue if the matting is terrible, but a well tended pet shouldn't need it!


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## BeauShel

I would never shave my goldens for anything except a hotspot. It killed me when Beau had to have his stomach shaved for surgery. It was so long and now is just growing back one year later.


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## breec3

I have the same opinion, I would never shave my golden for reason of keeping them cooler in the summer and keeping them warmer in the winter.

I didnt want to say that to her in front of the class


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## Heidi36oh

Never, Spice got shaved once by a groomer and I hated it. She was supposed to just do a little grooming and the poor dog ended up with no hair at all. Since then I do all my own grooming







 


 It's a Girl, *Cheyenne Opal









**RIP Sweet Spice & Peanut
*


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## MILLIESMOM

I usually shave Millie twice a year. I time it so she is in full coat over the coldest months. Her coat comes back fast and is just as beautiful. I don't do it for my comfort I do it for hers. she really does not enjoy the hot weather, when she was a pup she had a heat stroke on us, scared the day lites out of us. In April she gets cut short than again in Sept but not as close.


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## Pointgold

Dogs do not release heat throught their skin. They "sweat" through the pads and feet, and also release heat via panting. 
Double coated breeds were meant to work outside in all kinds of weather, and removing that coat does not make them cooler, but compromises the body's protection against the heat - by removing the insulating undercoat, more of the surface area of the body is exposed to the sun and heat, making it even more difficult to cool down.


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## missmarstar

i would never shave a golden either


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## For the Love of Goldens

A long time ago we had a neighbor with a golden (before we had ours). The groomer shaved her, and she seemed so embarrassed without her beautiful gold coat. I would not shave mine either!


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## Ardeagold

I don't have a problem with *clipping* a dog down...keeping the coat a bit shorter in the summer - and tunneling out the tummy area by shaving it (which works wonders to keep them cool....and you can't see it unless they're laying upside down on their back!). 

But shaving down all the fur to the skin.....no. Why have a long, double-coated breed if you're going to shave it down 4x a year? What's the point?

Our Newfs don't like hot weather. In fact, Newfs hate anything over 70 degrees F. But, still, we don't shave them. 

We do clip down Addie's hair.....she has hair like a Yak (thicker than the other 4 Newfs put together), no kidding, but the others take care of themselves by blowing their undercoat, staying in the AC in front of the floor fans...on the cool tile. 

The Goldens seem to do just fine all summer long with just their natural coats, and it gets pretty hot here in the mid-Atlantic.....and HUMID.


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## Ash

I would never reccomend anyone shave their Golden. In the summer on hot days I like to fill a pool or my dogs find their way to the horse water. Also trips to the lake and inside with the AC is always helpful. I find as long as they stay hydrated they are fine.


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## RickGibbs

I would never shave mine, either. In fact, a while back, my wife wanted to and I created a thread here and NO won by a landslide.

I know there are a few here on the forum who do it, but I'm not one of them....


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## Claire's Friend

I cut my OLDER dogs down to about 1 inch during the summer. They swim a lot and it gets harder for them to get out of the water with all the weight of their wet furr. Also they seem to be more prone to staph infections when they are older and if I leave their fur long they never dry out. I would never shave to the skin or in the winter.


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## HovawartMom

If you can't deal with shedding,don't get a golden!.If you need to shave them,get a lab,although I have seen labs being shaved!!.the golden coat is pretty easy to take care off and the coat protects them from both heat and cold.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

My niece used to cut Bailey's coat down pretty far, but not totally shaved. His coat is far more glorius than the coats of my two and he eats Iams! Go figure!!


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## vrocco1

Have you ever seen how embarrassed a shaved golden is right after you do it?


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## mylissyk

When we first got Robbie (from the shelter) his skin was a mess and his coat was so matted there was no way to brush it out. We did have him shaved then, but I will never do it again. It took over a year for it grow back. That's my personal experience, and I agree with all the reasons stated not to shave them too.


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## goldensmum

No NO NO - I know of one who has shaved a goldie and the coat was ruined - when it grew back it was woolly and looked awful, and the same has happened to a springer spaniel. Please don't do it.


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## PeanutsMom

I can't see any reason why I would shave mine but I have seen pics of a shaved golden and her coat is growing in very pretty and healthy looking.  Like I said, I personally don't have any reason to so I vote no.


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## Gold Elyse

I don't have my golden yet but, others say that is not a good idea. So I am going with not a good idea.


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## LibertyME

I have friends that live on a lake in the summer - Their Golden practically lives in the water - she would eat and sleep in the water if she could....

They shaved their girls under carriage and thin out her butt feathers...unless you were looking you could barely tell (the thinned butt feathers were the only give away)
Before shaving, they would spend hours each night trying to dry her and comb her out. Everyone was miserable.

The shaving reduced the tangling, allowed her to dry faster...The compromise seemed to allow their dog to keep her beautiful coat and swim to her hearts content - while not becoming one big tangled mess....


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## daisyzmummy

*I'm 100% against it as well. GR's hair is the way is it for a reason, so it shouldn't be cut.*

*I have seen a few that have been cut and I won't do it to mine.*


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## Scotti Bear

Re-opening an old wound on the forum here. We did shave our golden, though not for our comfort. He swims daily and _NEVER_ dries! He was beginning to smell permanently molded. Like an old dish rag. Daily baths are out of the question. Any suggestions?


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## bigds01

If you are always lake swimming trimming the belly works real well to avoid all kinds of problems.


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## spruce

i won't bore everyone with Bridger's shaved pictures again.

We see a beautiful young golden every summer who lives by a lakes, swims several times daily -- has a "scissor cut", makes him look more like a field golden (I guess). But his coat is easy for them to dry/maintain


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## Lucky's mom

I have considered it during the summer.....ummmm for my comfort I admit. and I think Lucky would like it. I used to shave a cockerspaniel in the past (woolycotteny hair that matted easy) and he seemed to enjoy being shaved.

Never done it with Lucky...but I considered it because from mid-june to Sept he sheds soooooo bad and his coat looks bad during this period. By the end of the summer he's got a very thin labish coat anyway.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

YUK. I'm sorry, but the "shaved" look is not what I wanted when I chose a golden. The undercoat is there for a reason. Casey can swim for an hour and come out with undercoat totally dry! I always feel sad when I see a "shaved" golden. I would have chosen another breed if I'd have wanted that look. (and they always look sad and embarrased.)


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## esSJay

My parents' Goldens always got shaved twice through the summer. Skoker has spent the majority of his summers at our cottage property, where he spends just about ALL DAY swimming, rolling in the dirt and mud, and simply sitting in the shallow part of the lake where there are lots of leeches/bloodsuckers. Before he and our previous dogs were shaved, we would always brush them out in the evenings, often finding leeches in ther undercoat. It was gross, and impossible to inspect/brush their long fur EVERY time he ran in and out of the water, and we didn't want leeches to be stuck to them for hours on end. 

Here's an old picture of Skokie (dog before Skoker) with her 'do!


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## yvettelovesgoldens

My Shadow had to be shaved once. The groomer didnt rince her well and she got about 6 hot spots. Really bad. So she was shaved. Ended up looking like a yellow lab, exactly. I missed the hair for sure! It grew in really nice and I didnt notice a change in the texture at all. This was when she was about 5 years old. I was so pissed at the groomer! Now I bath my girl
Hasnt happened since!
Yvette


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## Ed Stefansen

I have a large male who sheds constantly. I have spent many hours brushing and brushing only to pull more hair off. This has been my third shaving of Bruce in the three years we have had him. I love it and so does he! He sits there while I shave. He looks great, feels great, and pants less. I spent an hour and 1/2 shaving and washing my dog. I would spend more than 10 hours a weeks brushing him to get the hair off! I do live in Florida so this is part of the reason I want him comfortable.


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## FlyingQuizini

If weather of lifestyle (constant swimming) warranted, I'd consider clipping the belly short and and thinning out pants, but NEVER shaving the dog down completely.


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## K9-Design

Ed -- we live in the same town and I groom goldens. If you'd like me to groom your golden please let me know. My email is in my signature.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom

I often think when I see shaved goldens, why didn't they just get a lab? I love the golden coat, feathers, jaunty tail! I have clipped the feathers and tails when they got a bit out of control, but would never, ever shave...although I did consider it once when my girl was skunked!


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## Lucky's mom

Sometimes you get a Golden knowing that a consequence is shedding...and knowing you will have to deal with it.

And then you experience the real shedding, the real hair and realize you have a tough time dealing with it. I think people are different and deal with things differently.

The dog is simply not tramatized by the shave. Its other's people's perceptions that are tramatized. And since they aren't the owner...it doesn't matter.


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## grcharlie

breec3 said:


> My instructor tonight was going over grooming, and she said that her parents have a golden and they shave there golden four times a year.
> 
> I told her that I have read that it was not good to shave your golden because of the under coating.
> 
> I am wondering what everyone's opinion is on shaving your golden?


 
She knows nothing about Goldens! I would stay clear of this instructor. Bad advise! I am so against shaving...........grrr!


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## goldengirls550

I am very opposed to shaving double coated breeds. I can't imagine ruining my dogs' beautiful coats by shaving them. Once you break the top and undercoat, it is never the same. The double coat was meant to protect a Golden as well. It insulates them in the winter and cools them and protects them from damaging UV rays in the summer. I don't think a Golden should EVER be shaved unless there is a medical reason. If you want to shave your Golden, why not look for a smooth-coated breed. I just think it shows that the owner is lazy and doesn't want to put up with grooming if they shave their Golden for non-medical reasons.


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## AmandaSmelser

How do I deal with the person who tells me tonight, "Oh, come on! Do your dog a favor and shave him!" (Houston, TX - 81 degrees at 1 am, so you know how hot it got during the day).

I tried to explain how controversial shaving a golden is and how I'd like to avoid it for as long as it is practical. I have no problems with shedding, have provided a cool-down kiddie pool, and always watch his physiological signs when we're exercising. The guy wouldn't have it...shave, shave, shave!

Any nice comeback lines for that one?


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## wagondog

If there is a logical reason for cutting down then that is what must be done unless the reason is matting and/or knotted coat but those conditions can sometimes be rectified with patience and a comb. Goldens are meant to be full coated with trimmed furnishings, the most coat reduction I do is with thinning scissors on the butt and forechest but very minimally. The grooming shop I worked in before getting my own van routinely shaves down at least one Newfy and a Shepard per the customers request. Personally speaking I would not shave down a 2X coated dog just to satisfy the owner. That would be one customer I lose but you can't make them all happy.
Jerry and Harley (we're still here).


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## AquaClaraCanines

My foster is shaved- I didn't do it- but its coming in fast.


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## MILLIESMOM

John asked me if we were going to shave Brie like we did Millie. I will not consider it unless she has a serious problem with the heat. Millie love to be out with us, run and play hard with Pearl. But when it was hot she would just sit inside in the AC and look out the window with a sad face,only wanting to go out for potty breaks. If it was over 80 and humid which it often is here in New York through the summer, she would just lay in the shade for a short time and pant hard, wanting to go back in the house only to look out the window at us. When I would pick her up at the groomers she always looked happy and did big time zoomies when she got home. Like I stated in my earlier post when she was a pup she had a problem with the heat and collapsed on us. Her coat always came back beautiful and grew very fast. I will not shave Brie as she seems to deal with the heat just fine. She has a stunning coat on her long, heavy and flowing. When I trim her or she goes to the groomer, I trim her pants short and her feet. She has a very sensitve tummy and when she has loose bowel movements her pants tend to get messy.


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## 58loosy

So glad for everyone's opinion, I shaved my last golden a few times because I thought she was cooler especially when she got older, I won't do it with Lucy she has a bautiful coat.


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## Bell

I would never do it!It's not natural for goldens!Bell hasn't even been trimmed yet.He's got lovely light fur and great tail.This part of the brees's looks is why i chose a golden retriever in the first place.Nobody shaves goldens here anyway...AGAINST!!
How could i shave this fur?!I can't!


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## Mms

Btw, thanks to you guys for posting on this thread warning about the downsides to shaving a Golden. I've been trying to convince my mom that shaving a Golden is bad and thanks to your posts Gracie won't be getting a summer cut.


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## Mms

And sadly, you see lots of shaved goldens/collies/etc. in Northeast Texas


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## Maxs Mom

I would never shave a golden. If my dogs appear hot, I offer them a place to swim or let them get out of the heat and go inside. However I am very good about acclimating them in the weather as soon as winter breaks. I do NOT walk my dogs in the cool evenings if I can help it. I get them out during the hotter temperatures so when summer heat comes they are ready for it. I have never had a dog seem overly hot. Sure if we are having a hot day and take a walk, the dog go to their pool and cool off when we get home. We also have water to offer them on their walks. Usually they do not take it, my dogs are BIG drinkers so if they need it they will drink. 

Maxine got 'hotter' in the summer and I think it was because she was born in December. She LOVED the cold winter days as a young dog. As she aged she did not care for that. I think we need to acclimate Quinn a little more. She was born late Oct in MN within 2 weeks of her birth it was below zero. She doesn't know what this hot weather is. However she likes the fact we are out doing stuff in it! We just make sure she has plenty of places to cool. 

I would never in a million years clip a double coated dog. Once I took Max to groomer who said they were going to do that. I grabbed her leash from them and left. No one touches clippers to my dog! She was shaved for surgery and hot spots. I HATED doing that. 

Ann


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## Obiscus

Seems like our pup is having trouble with the heat. She has really thick coat on the top of her back and her chest is growing in quite thick as well. We use an undercoat rake but am curious as to what I should tell the groomer if shaving is not an option. Should we just as for a scissors trim or is that poor form as well? Thanks.


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## goldhaven

AmandaSmelser said:


> How do I deal with the person who tells me tonight, "Oh, come on! Do your dog a favor and shave him!" (Houston, TX - 81 degrees at 1 am, so you know how hot it got during the day).
> 
> I tried to explain how controversial shaving a golden is and how I'd like to avoid it for as long as it is practical. I have no problems with shedding, have provided a cool-down kiddie pool, and always watch his physiological signs when we're exercising. The guy wouldn't have it...shave, shave, shave!
> 
> Any nice comeback lines for that one?


I would say, "Shaving a golden is like making your children go out in the winter without a coat and out in the summer naked with no sunscreen."


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## BradChesney79

1 Inflammatory Post / 1 Total Posts

(I must be six times worse than that person earlier...)

It is great that everyone seems to agree that 'shaving' a dog is bad, and I agree. However, I feel differently about the notion that removing some of the hair is a bad idea. But, if you might-- please point me at your source for the related information. I'm kind of into science and I would like empirical data, not that common sense or conventional wisdom are bad-- it is just that those types of information may be wrong and we all love our pets. Let's be sure this information is correct. What if losing an inch of hair actually helps the air flow and doesn't upset the benefits of the remaining undercoat?

Things I do know for sure irrefutably:

1.) Golden retrievers do not generate melanin (melanin is the stuff that makes humans tan) for moderate protection from the sun. The hair has to be long enough to block a significant amount of the UV rays from reaching the epidermis.

2.) Dogs do not have sweat glands under their fur.

3.) Fur is a poor conductor of heat. It is low density and made of biological chemical components that make transfer of the energy difficult.

Things I am not sure about:

1.) Heat landing on the fur is more likely to move to the matter that surrounds it than along the hair to the root. My hypothesis is that the hair only needs to be as long as need be for the sun protection.

2.) If the outside temperature is 90 degrees Fahrenheit and my dogs resting temperature is 100 or so-- I am at a loss as to how this insulation is benefiting him via logic. The flow of heat energy is from a higher to a lower as a rule. What exception for the first and second laws of thermodynamics allow for the magic of this undercoat? The undercoat will only insulate the dog with a positive effect if the temperature is outside of the dogs natural operating temperature range. When it is cold, the coat keeps heat in. Only when the heat is higher outside the dog's body will the under coat insulate the interior of the dog from heat. I fail to understand how a lower temperature can make a dog hotter...

Things I have observed, but may be wrong about (I have become a dog shaver, but I'm not a canine mind reader):

1.) I did not expect it, but my dog did seem sheepish the first day or so after the initial shaving. This perceived 'embarrassment' did not seem to last long.

2.) He did seem happier and more playful in general than previous years and this effect was repeated the second year we shaved him. He is seven years old and this year will be the third shaving.

3.) We never cut a walk with the dog short for his comfort after the trim because it didn't look like he needed to rest in a cool spot-- he has looked like that with a full coat previously and taking him home early is what we did for him then.

4.) We get the single annual clip as soon as the weather turns. He seems to be back to his bushy self by winter. If he weren't, I would ask for less to be removed.

*Mind you, we only shortened his hair. His skin was not visible, I am unsure what that exact length was.


I have come here with my mind made up that shortening my long hair breed's coat is the right thing to do. But, I have an open mind and will happily pore over any objective proof to the contrary. Looking for this proof landed me here, you all seemed the most intelligent. (Yay for you, proper grammar and coherent thoughts for the most part.)


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## Nairb

Brad,

Do you have a before and after shaving photo you could show us? 


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## BradChesney79

Before, no can do.

I'll snap an after pic tomorrow though.

I previously drove an illogical distance and paid a ridiculous amount to have someone that was gentle and did a good job (no bare spots or gouges in his skin).

This year I bought some high quality shears (Wahl ~$55) and used a #8 guard which is roughly 1" or so. I would consider using a #7 next year, and possibly a #6 after using it on a test spot to make sure I am not removing too much-- remember, dogs have no sun protection in their actual skin.

I will admit that my dog shaving skills are mediocre at best; but he looks fine, seems more comfortable in general, I never removed the guard & his skin is as intact as it has ever been. He was comfortable enough with getting shaved to lay down while I did it.


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## BradChesney79

https://plus.google.com/photos/1013...5889931928180968274&oid=101334605025130583821

https://plus.google.com/photos/1013...5889932052351185522&oid=101334605025130583821

https://plus.google.com/photos/1013...5889931517901142994&oid=101334605025130583821

Been busy, but this is Pete with his unnaturally short buzz cut for the summer.


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## BradChesney79

*???*

I have seen 'don't shave your dog' all over the Internet. I'm about to call --Old Wive's Tale-- unless I can see some objective proof it is a bad idea.

I am happy to change my mind when I see a good reason to.

I have exposed my logic and why I feel the way I do. Anyone care to give a rebuttal? Does anyone have any solid proof that the excessive hair is better to keep in hot weather?


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## dborgers

We had to completely shave Andy once when he developed a skin problem. Gentamicin spray couldn't penetrate all that hair and work effectively. The skin problem cleared up in days after that. 

Here he is, shaved, laying with his then foster brother buddy, Buddy (who *Laura* adopted thanks to GRF). I believe it's the only pic I have of him fully shaved. I'd joke with him "Hey, I don't have a lab. Do I know you?", to which he'd flop on his back, tail wagging like mad, and get a lot of close snuggling:


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## jagmanbrg

BradChesney79 said:


> 1 Inflammatory Post / 1 Total Posts
> 
> It is great that everyone seems to agree that 'shaving' a dog is bad, and I agree.
> 
> Things I have observed, but may be wrong about (*I have become a dog shaver*, but I'm not a canine mind reader):


You agree?

You seem pretty smart, or at least you type as such, so not sure why you came to this forum to seek "scientific" advice. From what I've seen most people that shave their dog, or their Golden for that matter do it cause they don't know any better. They think that it will keep them cooler, or they don't want them to shed etc. I personally don't understand why you would want a double coated breed and then expect it not to shed.

I came across this site, not sure if "scientific" enough for you:

Truths and Myths About Shaving Dogs with Double Coats | doggywoof


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## Brave

BradChesney79 said:


> I have seen 'don't shave your dog' all over the Internet. I'm about to call --Old Wive's Tale-- unless I can see some objective proof it is a bad idea.
> 
> I am happy to change my mind when I see a good reason to.
> 
> I have exposed my logic and why I feel the way I do. Anyone care to give a rebuttal? Does anyone have any solid proof that the excessive hair is better to keep in hot weather?


I think there may be some misunderstanding in terms. When most ppl hear "I shaved my golden" I for one, envision down to 1/2" or less. If you take clippers to your dog for a hair cut, I doubt that would be considered shaving your golden down. Most shave downs are to the skin or darn close. I've done plenty of shave downs on plenty of dogs for various reasons. I would never shave bear down to the skin. His cost is approx. 6" im some areas.... Though he does get hot faster. I blame the fact his coat is black. It absorbs energy wicked fast. 


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## Wendi

jagmanbrg said:


> You agree?
> 
> You seem pretty smart, or at least you type as such, so not sure why you came to this forum to seek "scientific" advice. From what I've seen most people that shave their dog, or their Golden for that matter do it cause they don't know any better. They think that it will keep them cooler, or they don't want them to shed etc. I personally don't understand why you would want a double coated breed and then expect it not to shed.
> 
> I came across this site, not sure if "scientific" enough for you:
> 
> Truths and Myths About Shaving Dogs with Double Coats | doggywoof


I don't understand people who get a double coated dog and then shave it either.

I didn't see any "scientific" proof in why it's ok/good to shave. Not sure why they would request "scientific" proof that it isn't. Seems to me, burden of proof is on the shaver, not the ones keeping their dogs natural coat. 



Brave said:


> I think there may be some misunderstanding in terms. When most ppl hear "I shaved my golden" I for one, envision down to 1/2" or less. If you take clippers to your dog for a hair cut, I doubt that would be considered shaving your golden down. Most shave downs are to the skin or darn close. I've done plenty of shave downs on plenty of dogs for various reasons. I would never shave bear down to the skin. His cost is approx. 6" im some areas.... Though he does get hot faster. I blame the fact his coat is black. It absorbs energy wicked fast.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That is what I think when I see someone wants to shave their dog too.


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## goldlover68

I would never shave my Golden's! Additionally, some have commented that shaving destroys the downy layer and makes the dog venerable to cold as they age. This layer does grow back, but in time it thins and becomes less effective.


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## BradChesney79

goldlover68 said:


> I would never shave my Golden's! Additionally, some have commented that shaving destroys the downy layer and makes the dog venerable to cold as they age. This layer does grow back, but in time it thins and becomes less effective.


Yes, this. But with science-- you know documentation that has measurements that shows the downy layer wasn't falling out due to old age. Experiment and control specimens that prove definitively shaving is the cause of the temporary or permanent damage to the coat.

So far Pete is happy as a clam with his trimmed fuzzyness. You have not swayed me. I think your heart is in the right place, if that helps.


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## Jersey's Mom

I took bits and pieces of your first post to respond to in hopes of making it clear exactly what I was responding to. It was a long post, and a generic response just seemed jumbled. Sometimes this is viewed as being aggressive... and I hope you know that's not my intent here. 



> _1.) Heat landing on the fur is more likely to move to the matter that surrounds it than along the hair to the root. My hypothesis is that the hair only needs to be as long as need be for the sun protection._


To use your own wording from a subsequent post "Yes, this. But with science." You know, documentation that has measurements of exactly how far the radiant energy from the sun travels along the hair toward the root before losing enough energy to keep the dog protected. Honestly, I sincerely doubt there's a single reputable scientific study on this... but you can feel free to produce it if you have it, since you claim to have come to this decision by examining all the "science" behind it. For the moment, though, let's lose scientific logic. Let's say radiant heat hits the outside of the dog's coat and begins traveling down toward the root as you suggest. Along a longer strand of hair, more and more of the energy will dissipate allowing for less to reach the dog's skin, therefore having less of an effect to raise the dog's temperature. Along a shorter strand, the heat has less distance to travel (obviously), so less energy will be lost before hitting the root. In this scenario, shorter hair = hotter dog. 



> _2.) If the outside temperature is 90 degrees Fahrenheit and my dogs resting temperature is 100 or so-- I am at a loss as to how this insulation is benefiting him via logic. The flow of heat energy is from a higher to a lower as a rule. What exception for the first and second laws of thermodynamics allow for the magic of this undercoat? The undercoat will only insulate the dog with a positive effect if the temperature is outside of the dogs natural operating temperature range. When it is cold, the coat keeps heat in. Only when the heat is higher outside the dog's body will the under coat insulate the interior of the dog from heat. I fail to understand how a lower temperature can make a dog hotter..._


This isn't just about the first and second laws of thermodynamics. It is also about radiant energy (from the sun) and the biological functions that allow a dog to lose heat. Look, I'm not about to spend the next 3 hours finding scientific texts to explain this. You're more than welcome to do the research if you're truly interested in approaching all of this "scientifically." But we'll do the Cliff's Notes version (and bear in mind, I was a biology major... I've seen the science behind it) and follow the logic. 

Do you sweat on a 90 degree day? Yes you do. Why do you sweat? To release heat. Humans release heat primarily by convection... the sweat glands produce moisture and air moving past the moisture serves to cool the skin. Why do you need to release heat on a 90 degree day when your core temperature is over 90 degrees? Well, if you're sitting outside in the sun it's likely because the radiant energy from the sun is raising your core temp. If your'e performing physical activity (whether in the sun or not), it's likely because of the heat your body is producing by doing the work. I'm sure there's a wonderful scientific explanation for this well beyond those two examples... but we'll stick with that for now. 

So if you need to sweat on a 90 degree day to release heat... doesn't it make sense that your dog (whose core temp is only a few degrees higher) would need to as well? Dogs don't have sweat glands all over their body like people do. Dogs decrease body heat primarily through panting, a little through their paws, and (for double coated breeds at least... I don't know much about other coat types) some portion through air flow against the skin. There's a great graphic of how the fur helps cool the coat here:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200896435714011&set=o.424467724271294&type=1&theater
It also shows the importance of thoroughly clearing out the undercoat and avoiding mats. Here's the thing... when people shave or clip their dogs way down but don't thoroughly clear out the undercoat -- they decrease the protection from the radiant energy but stifle the airflow. That's a quick recipe for overheating a dog. When they shave or clip their dogs way down and DO clear out the undercoat, they leave them not enough protection from the sun. This, also, is a recipe for overheating. Lose-lose.




> _Things I have observed, but may be wrong about (I have become a dog shaver, but I'm not a canine mind reader):
> 
> 1.) I did not expect it, but my dog did seem sheepish the first day or so after the initial shaving. This perceived 'embarrassment' did not seem to last long._


The reason to not shave your dog isn't to keep him from being embarrassed. I'm not a canine mind reader either... who knows if that truly is embarrassment? It really doesn't matter. What matters is allowing the coat that dogs have evolved for protection from the elements to do its job.



> _2.) He did seem happier and more playful in general than previous years and this effect was repeated the second year we shaved him. He is seven years old and this year will be the third shaving._


Can't tell you one way or another. My 7 year old boy has never been shaved or clipped... he's perfectly playful all year round, including outdoor agility training sessions. I keep him very well hydrated and allow him plenty of time and ways to cool down. I also make sure that his undercoat is well cleared and that his coat remains in good condition.



> _3.) We never cut a walk with the dog short for his comfort after the trim because it didn't look like he needed to rest in a cool spot-- he has looked like that with a full coat previously and taking him home early is what we did for him then._


Again, with the steps I follow above, I've not had this problem either. That's not to say I'm going to take him for a 5 mile run in the heat of the day. I make smart decisions of what to do (and when) for him same as I do for myself and same as I recommend for my patients of all ages. 



> _4.) We get the single annual clip as soon as the weather turns. He seems to be back to his bushy self by winter. If he weren't, I would ask for less to be removed._


"Bushy" isn't really a term I would usually choose to describe a golden. I wonder what his coat would look like if it were allowed to grow and were well maintained all year. Maybe that's just a matter of semantics though.




> _I have come here with my mind made up that shortening my long hair breed's coat is the right thing to do. But, I have an open mind and will happily pore over any objective proof to the contrary.
> _


As noted above, you haven't actually provided any objective proof. All you've done is taken the very edge of scientific theory and twisted it in a way that supports what you want to do. Supposition and science are not synonymous. If you want to pore over scientific literature, I'm not sure how much you'll find on this specific topic but I'm sure there's some out there for you. But it's disingenuous to present this in a way that suggests that you've objectively proved something and that we must be on the defensive and come back with equally "objective" information to sway you. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## BradChesney79

I guess one place to start would be here:

Use Fourier's law of heat conduction:
H = ∆Q/∆dt = k∙A∙∆T/dx
(H heat flow, k thermal conductivity, A area of the layer, ∆T temperature difference, ∆x thickness of the layer.


So the heat difference between dog's body and surrounding is:
∆T = H∙∆x / (k∙A)
= 34W ∙ 0.017m / (0.04W/Km ∙ 0.45m²)
= 32.11°C


The outside temperature is
T = 34°C - 32.11°C =1.889°C

Yeah, I don't have the numbers. I think something quantifiable would be better. Observation says my dog is happier with shorter hair. --People, like yourself, say their dogs are happier with longer hair.

I think we can prove which way keeps them most cool. Albeit, it is only one factor in a dog's overall happiness.

I am not sure, but we have a fairly robust lab at the new job I just started working at. Pete blew his coat last week, so I don't have as much undercoat to work with and I may have to wait until next year to get a good quantity of guard hair for a sample. Let's see what I can do.


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## BradChesney79

Jersey's Mom said:


> I took bits and pieces of your first post to respond to in hopes of making it clear exactly what I was responding to. It was a long post, and a generic response just seemed jumbled. Sometimes this is viewed as being aggressive... and I hope you know that's not my intent here.


Nope, exactly what I was hoping for. Neither of us has any real science in our posts. You don't like my logic, but yours surpasses my lowest expectations and I was happy to read your post.

No offense taken and hopefully no offense given. We are just two people that care about our dogs. I would like to believe there is one definitive answer and that I am either right or wrong. One of my concerns is that the dogs will have an unquantifiable preference somewhat unrelated to the things we can measure or calculate.


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## Jersey's Mom

BradChesney79 said:


> I guess one place to start would be here:
> 
> Use Fourier's law of heat conduction:
> H = ∆Q/∆dt = k∙A∙∆T/dx
> (H heat flow, k thermal conductivity, A area of the layer, ∆T temperature difference, ∆x thickness of the layer.
> 
> 
> So the heat difference between dog's body and surrounding is:
> ∆T = H∙∆x / (k∙A)
> = 34W ∙ 0.017m / (0.04W/Km ∙ 0.45m²)
> = 32.11°C
> 
> 
> The outside temperature is
> T = 34°C - 32.11°C =1.889°C
> 
> Yeah, I don't have the numbers. I think something quantifiable would be better. Observation says my dog is happier with shorter hair. --People, like yourself, say their dogs are happier with longer hair.
> 
> I think we can prove which way keeps them most cool. Albeit, it is only one factor in a dog's overall happiness.
> 
> I am not sure, but we have a fairly robust lab at the new job I just started working at. Pete blew his coat last week, so I don't have as much undercoat to work with and I may have to wait until next year to get a good quantity of guard hair for a sample. Let's see what I can do.


The problem with using an equation like this is that it does not account for the biological processes that have evolved over time to allow dogs to regulate temperature. It doesn't account for the position of the guard hairs and this specific example -- I found the original problem this relates to online -- does not account for heat lost by panting (it says "If all this heat flows out through the dog's fur," which we know is not true to life). This is a question designed to give you just enough information to use the desired equation to formulate an answer, devoid of examination into the actual biology of heat transfer between a dog and the outside environment. Also, it does not account for radiant energy from the sun -- which is fairly hard to deny this time of year. In order to examine the truth you are looking for, it will take more than an equation and a sample question some professor designed to cue his students to use that particular equation.

I appreciate your second post and am glad mine was received in the spirit it was intended.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## VonD

*Pads and coats*

So I don't think the argument here is whether or not a golden perspires through their coat - its how hot their coat makes them.

We all know dog's perspire through their pads, but let me put it this way - humans perspire through sweat glands mostly in armpits and other places. How would you feel if you had a winter coat on in all the places except where you perspire? You would still be hot. I understand that you are altering a dog's natural coat, but why not take some of the bulk and hair off? Their coat will eventually grow back. I think shaving a golden depends on your lifestyle and the lifestyle you give your golden. Yes the breed initially worked outdoors in all sorts of conditions, but that not the way it is anymore is it? We mostly keep our golden's in acclimatized/comfortable homes throughout every season.

I haven't shaved my golden yet but am seriously considering it. We take her camping/swimming alot and she ends up getting hot spots because she cant dry off fast enough. I also have never trimmed her but no matter how often I brush she has very knotty feathers. She is not a silky breed.

I just think the whole "dogs lose heat through their pads" is a ridiculous statement that doesn't really apply to this question/debate.


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## Brave

Then consider thinning the cost in other (non-cutting/shaving) ways. 

Use an undercoat rake to loosen and remove dead undercoat. 

Use a high velocity dryer to blow out dead undercoat. 

Also, there is a BIG difference in giving a golden a "puppy cut" which is 1-2 inches in length and doing a shave-down which is only 1/4 inch hair. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Megora

VonD said:


> I haven't shaved my golden yet but am seriously considering it. We take her camping/swimming alot and she ends up getting hot spots because she cant dry off fast enough. I also have never trimmed her but no matter how often I brush she has very knotty feathers. She is not a silky breed.


You can thin out her coat and trim up the feathering. A lot of people do this with senior goldens or goldens who have really bad spay or thyroid coats. I would thin out the feathering vs just cutting it off, because past experience with one of my past seniors - the feathering around his ears that was just cut back to the skin, grew back matted. 

Thinning and trimming is not the same as shaving your dog's coat. 

Generally speaking the thinning and trimming helps maintain a difficult coat. 

Shaving - especially from what I've seen - can worsen skin problems with prone goldens. Because they remove the top coat and what is left behind kinda becomes caked with oils and dandruff and dirt, etc. 

Because our dogs are inside the house with us, they do not truly get "winter coats" the same way some other animals do (horses, for example). Most dogs shed nonstop, year round. 

I do a lot of hiking and swimming with my guys in summer - and they are happy and safe - as long as I make sure they have access to shade, cool dirt areas, and water. We have a dirt mound in our backyard which is shaded and is basically an "oasis" for the dogs when they come outside with me when I'm gardening. They will dig spots in the dirt and hang out watching me from the shade. 

A dog walking out in full sun and on pavement is a very unhappy dog on a hot summer day. 

More than just talking about heavy coats or shaved coats - you just need a lot of common sense to keep your dogs healthy and safe out there in summer.


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## bigslick1551

Off with there coats and let them owners who want them to where there coats wear there winter coats!!


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## Goldieluvr1

We trimmed our Bonnie's coat during the summer months, shaved her once and she was miserable. Keeping it shorter during summer months was best, and having a cool bed/mat is a must.


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## Goldylover2

We had our golden shaved every haircut. At least two times a year. She seemed to itch much less.


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## DanaRuns

I'm surprised this is still a debate. I suppose some folks just want to believe their human "common sense" and will justify it however they must.


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## Megora

DanaRuns said:


> I'm surprised this is still a debate. I suppose some folks just want to believe their human "common sense" and will justify it however they must.


Well... using common sense as I advocated in my last post here, you can thin out and trim up a coat (not shave) if it's really bad. I had a senior with a very full coat and wish now I knew some grooming things I know now. He would have gone swimming a lot more and been a lot more comfortable.


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## Goldylover2

DanaRuns said:


> I'm surprised this is still a debate. I suppose some folks just want to believe their human "common sense" and will justify it however they must.


Your right it shouldn't be. There's nothing wrong with shaving your golden if you choose to.


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## NewfieMom

dborgers said:


> We had to completely shave Andy once when he developed a skin problem.


Been there, done that. I shaved my Newf on the advice of an excellent veterinary dermatologist. Griffin had been treated for skin conditions. Not only was he on oral medication, but I was giving him shots every two weeks (some serum I could get only through the veterinary allergist by mail) to prevent staph infections. I went with the advice of the vet, rather the advice of the Internet. Imagine that.

NewfieMom


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## mylissyk

Goldylover2 said:


> Your right it shouldn't be. There's nothing wrong with shaving your golden if you choose to.


Well, actually there are good reasons not to shave a double coated dog.

Clipper Alopecia | Atomic Canine
Daytona
http://ezinearticles.com/?Not-All-Dogs-Benefit-From-A-Summer-Haircut-or-Shave-Down&id=188653
Thoughtful Paws Grooming Blog: Should You Shave Your Double-Coated Dog?


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## Goldylover2

mylissyk said:


> Well, actually there are good reasons not to shave a double coated dog.
> 
> Clipper Alopecia | Atomic Canine
> Daytona
> http://ezinearticles.com/?Not-All-Dogs-Benefit-From-A-Summer-Haircut-or-Shave-Down&id=188653
> Thoughtful Paws Grooming Blog: Should You Shave Your Double-Coated Dog?


I shaved my golden for 10+ years. She itched much less. Hot spots were non existent when shaved. Hair always grew back. She was very big for a female weighing 90 to 95 pounds and looked great shaved.


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## Brave

I shaved Bear ONCE for a major medical procedure and while his fur DID come back, it was completely a different texture than before. And now he tangles easier than ever. 

On the other hand, my senior foster has had her belly shaved twice now for operations, and the fur takes FOREVER to come in, and even then it's sparse and in patches.


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## Bentman2

*With DanaRuns on this*

Yes, I agree with DanaRuns on this issue. The Lord created all the animals on the 6th day of Creation. He knew exactly which animals needed longer coats and which shorter ones. At the end of that day, He looked back over that day, and all that he had made and saw "that it was good". At that time, man had not been created, so He knew that He gave all the animals what they needed to survive without any dependence on man. The animals that existed on that day are, for the most part, still the ones we have today. Man does not have to come behind God and do anything extra. However if you want to shave your goldens, go ahead. Just know that you do not have to try and fix something that is not broken. Also know that it will also have costs that you will have to deal with as a result of that. Goldens will still have long coats many thousands of years from now because we cannot change the things that God creates.


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## ktkins7

In my personal opinion I think they should only be shaved for medical reasons. When my family's bridge sheltie got older he had major skin problems and had to be shaved for treatment. His coat was never the same. I figure their coats are there for a reason. I can understand getting a shorter cut (not shaven) or if it's really thick thinking it out a bit but no shaving. 

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## Goldylover2

Bentman2 said:


> Yes, I agree with DanaRuns on this issue. The Lord created all the animals on the 6th day of Creation. He knew exactly which animals needed longer coats and which shorter ones. At the end of that day, He looked back over that day, and all that he had made and saw "that it was good". At that time, man had not been created, so He knew that He gave all the animals what they needed to survive without any dependence on man. The animals that existed on that day are, for the most part, still the ones we have today. Man does not have to come behind God and do anything extra. However if you want to shave your goldens, go ahead. Just know that you do not have to try and fix something that is not broken. Also know that it will also have costs that you will have to deal with as a result of that. Goldens will still have long coats many thousands of years from now because we cannot change the things that God creates.


Now we've brought God into in..Really!!!


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## Tangles

Shaved my 14 year old for the first time this summer. Best thing ever for him. He is like a rejuvenated puppy. 4 months later and his coat is nearly back totally. I will shave him again next summer.


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## NewfieMom

ktkins7 said:


> I figure their coats are there for a reason.


It just occurred to me that using this logic, women wouldn't be shaving their legs. ;-)

NewfieMom

BTW, I don't have to shave mine anymore. I outgrew needing to (no more hair). But I bet there are a lot of women on this forum who are not ready to give up the practice!


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