# Not responding to treats.



## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Every day is a training day for Walnut, and he responds really well to treats/praise indoors. 

He also used to respond really well to praise and treats outdoors (we used to do a lot of outdoor training). 

Lately though, we simply cannot get his attention when other dogs, friends, family are around. Mostly just dogs though. We went to the park yesterday, and it was a hell trying to get his attention. 

I was trying to walk him on leash to the off lease trail, and he just pulled like crazy. He's been trained to loose leash walk, but just completely loses it when he sees other dogs.

Anyway, we got to the off-leash trail, and he went deaf. He wouldn't respond to any commands, and would not come back when called. 

So I put him back on his leash, and tried a few simple commands (sit, down, paw, etc). Nope. Nothing. I tried to give him a few treats for doing the commands, but nope...he won't even try smelling them. He actually avoids them because my hand gets in his face and blocks his view. 

I've tried our home backed treats, peanut butter, boiled chicken, hotdogs, sweet potator etc. 

It doesn't seem to matter what kind of treat I try to use. As long as there are other dogs around, he doesn't respond AT ALL to anything. He was never like this, and if anything, we've only stepped up the training. 

As soon as we get back in the car, he responds to the clicker and treats no problem. 

I emailed our trainer from puppy school for ideas, and he said to try taking him to the park on an empty stomach. Still no luck. Even using environmental rewards don't work. 

Any suggestions? 

Walnut is an (almost) 1 year old un-neutered male who get's about 16-18 hrs of exercise per week. 

Thanks.


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## Hombrespop (Sep 3, 2012)

Sounds like the basics aren't firmly enough instilled in your pup. I would put a prong collar on him and give some good corrections along with a lot of praise and treats when he does respond correctly. They will all test you with this deaf ear but set him up to fail with distractions so corrections can be given


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Is puppy class the last class he had taken? It seems as if he has not learned to work around distractions. I suggest taking a refresher course (or two) so he can learn to work around other dogs. It would be easier when the other dogs are working too and not running around at the dog park. Molly goes to class 3 times a week and has always been in classes since 11 weeks of age, except for a month off that we took when she had to wait until she was of age to take obedience. We train successfully in the dog park even doing stays.


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

I know if Cookie doesn't respond to treats, then I am way too close to the distraction and the only thing to do is to increase distance. Actually, not taking treats means that I lost her attention long before, and there are subtler signs I look for. The moment Cookie stops checking in with me, we back up and regroup.


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

I agree with training on an empty stomach (at least 3 hours after a meal), more obedience classes and no more off-leash time until you have a solid recall.

Have you tried clicker training?


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Walnut is over stimulated at the sight of other dogs that is why he is refusing treats. Suggest working with him at a distance from other dogs, that he can maintain some self control, could be twenty feet, might be 50 ft. Once you figure out his threshold, the point he doesn't over react, reward him for looking and staying calm. Slowly decrease the distance over days, weeks, only moving closer when he is able to stay in control. 
When you are going to the park he is anticipating the fun time, he is over excited and loses it. Don't expect him to listen to you inside the park, if he is already 'wired' and not listening outside the park. Practice approaching the park calmly. I use 'penalty yards' when my dog can't behave, as soon as he starts pulling, I stop moving, if he continues to pull, I cue 'this way' and we move further away from whatever he is onto. I get the sit, praise/reward it, and move closer, slowly, repeat. The only way he gets to go where he wants to go, is by keeping the leash loose and staying calm. Be consistent and practice calm approaches with anything that gets him excited, and don't let him approach if he is not staying calm, stop or move away if need be.
Once inside the park, have him sit to be released, once released, give him some time to burn some energy, time your recall for when he is taking a break from playing. When he comes, praise and reward if he will take it and immediately release him to go play, showing him that coming to you does not always mean the fun is over. Repeat, repeat. Dog owners often create dogs that won't come when at the dogpark by only calling the dog when it is time to leave, teach him that is not always the case.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Nuggetsdad said:


> Sounds like the basics aren't firmly enough instilled in your pup. I would put a prong collar on him and give some good corrections along with a lot of praise and treats when he does respond correctly. They will all test you with this deaf ear but set him up to fail with distractions so corrections can be given
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Hmmm. This could be the case, although it's only when he's around other dogs.

I think part of the problem is that he had daily dog walks for for 6 months - which means he had total freedom to visit any dog he wanted. We never stopped training recall or any other basic command - ever. 

He's not allowed to do anything without permission (seems harsh, i know). 

I don't know about the prong collar though. Looks painful. We've always used clicker+treats, and until now, it's worked great. 

Perhaps I can hook him up to a 15ft leash instead of his current 4ft. This way, if he doesn't respond to recall, i can "remind" him what it is. 

Maybe we're too gentle with him??? He's also learned to mark (off-leash). On-leash, he's only allowed to mark when given permission to do so. When he's off-leash though, he'd rather sniff and mark than listen.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Is puppy class the last class he had taken? It seems as if he has not learned to work around distractions. I suggest taking a refresher course (or two) so he can learn to work around other dogs. It would be easier when the other dogs are working too and not running around at the dog park. Molly goes to class 3 times a week and has always been in classes since 11 weeks of age, except for a month off that we took when she had to wait until she was of age to take obedience. We train successfully in the dog park even doing stays.


Yes, puppy class was the last course (he was 8 weeks). We will be signing him up for the good neighbor course for January and possible the foundation course: 

Dog Obedience Toronto - When Hounds Fly Dog Training
Canine Good Neighbour Test Toronto - When Hounds Fly Dog Training


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Charliethree said:


> Walnut is over stimulated at the sight of other dogs that is why he is refusing treats. Suggest working with him at a distance from other dogs, that he can maintain some self control, could be twenty feet, might be 50 ft. Once you figure out his threshold, the point he doesn't over react, reward him for looking and staying calm. Slowly decrease the distance over days, weeks, only moving closer when he is able to stay in control.
> When you are going to the park he is anticipating the fun time, he is over excited and loses it. Don't expect him to listen to you inside the park, if he is already 'wired' and not listening outside the park. Practice approaching the park calmly. I use 'penalty yards' when my dog can't behave, as soon as he starts pulling, I stop moving, if he continues to pull, I cue 'this way' and we move further away from whatever he is onto. I get the sit, praise/reward it, and move closer, slowly, repeat. The only way he gets to go where he wants to go, is by keeping the leash loose and staying calm. Be consistent and practice calm approaches with anything that gets him excited, and don't let him approach if he is not staying calm, stop or move away if need be.
> Once inside the park, have him sit to be released, once released, give him some time to burn some energy, time your recall for when he is taking a break from playing. When he comes, praise and reward if he will take it and immediately release him to go play, showing him that coming to you does not always mean the fun is over. Repeat, repeat. Dog owners often create dogs that won't come when at the dogpark by only calling the dog when it is time to leave, teach him that is not always the case.


This is exactly what our training taught us, and precisely what we've been doing. We never call him to come to put the leash on. Instead, we wait till he's near us, then without saying anything, we put his leash on but don't immediately leave the park. We walk around a bit before leaving. 

We also stop and move 3 steps back for every time he pulls to go to the park. It used to work great, but not anymore. Eventually he gets the idea, and knows the length of his leash (4ft), so he'll do this run-stop-run-stop thing to just before the point where his leash "ends". When he's doesn't pull, I say "good boy" and try to pet him, but even petting him excites him causing him to want to pull even more. And we do make him sit before entering the park. He sits and waits for our OKAY, but its obvious his mind/focus is somewhere else. He makes no eye contact. I once made him sit for almost 3 minutes before letting him in the park. Within those 3 minutes, he didn't make eye contact ONCE! 

This is the ONLY problem we have with him. He is otherwise an amazing dog and knows a ton of stuff.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"This is exactly what our training taught us, and precisely what we've been doing. We never call him to come to put the leash on. Instead, we wait till he's near us, then without saying anything, we put his leash on but don't immediately leave the park. We walk around a bit before leaving"

Actually, what you are doing is different than what CharlieThree suggested.

Charliethree wrote: "Once inside the park, have him sit to be released, once released, give him some time to burn some energy, time your recall for when he is taking a break from playing. When he comes, praise and reward if he will take it and *imm ediately release him to go play*, showing him that coming to you does not always mean the fun is over. Repeat, repeat"

She also suggested something different for Walnut not obeying when distracted.

Charliethree wrote:The only way he gets to go where he wants to go, is by keeping the leash loose and staying calm. Be consistent and practice calm approaches with anything that gets him excited, and don't let him approach if he is not staying calm, stop or move away if need be.

You may even have to go to the park, get out of your car and train right there without Walnut even getting to play at the park when you first start training this.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> "This is exactly what our training taught us, and precisely what we've been doing. We never call him to come to put the leash on. Instead, we wait till he's near us, then without saying anything, we put his leash on but don't immediately leave the park. We walk around a bit before leaving"
> 
> Actually, what you are doing is different than what CharlieThree suggested.
> 
> ...


Sorry, perhaps I didn't respond with enough detail :doh:
But we do call him back, praise and release, then do again in 5-10 minutes. Our trainer said the idea is to not let their focus get too far away from you. So by recalling him every few minutes, his attention will always be with you. It also encourages him to come back, because he knows he can go back and play some more. 

This used to work great, and his recall really was %100 until about 3 months into our dog walks (which we no longer do). 

As for teaching him to stay calm and preventing approaching, we do this as well. We do when he wants to approach other dogs or people. 

And we have ask our neighbours to not approach him when he is excited. They were all happy to help us. So basically what we did was, when someone he knew came up to pet him, they would stop once they saw him getting excited and walked back a few steps. Once he calmed down, they would walk forward again. We do this until he can be approached while staying calm. We're still working on this as we were never able to perfect it %100.


*"You may even have to go to the park, get out of your car and train right there without Walnut even getting to play at the park when you first start training this."*

I love this idea. This is actually pretty genius, and I can't believe we never thought about it. I know he's going to be super distracted with the dogs playing inside, which would be a great opportunity to train outside!! 

Thanks for the tip. I'll try this method this weekend and share the results. When should we stop? I mean, when do we know he's had enough? Also, do we take him back to the car once i have his full attention? I want him to know that seeing other dogs doesn't always mean playtime, in a way were he doesn't like he's being punished for something. 

I really think the 6 months of dog walks at the park made him forget his manners. We could call from a group of 10 dogs in the middle of play, at the end of the field, and he would ALWAYS run back to us for a treat, then run back to play again.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"Thanks for the tip. I'll try this method this weekend and share the results. When should we stop? I mean, when do we know he's had enough?"

Dogs are really smart. If they know they will eventually get what they want they know they can play you and wait you out as you will eventually give them what they want.

You need to be consistent. You need to be firm but fair. And you need to reward for all good behaviors. 

It really is all about the focus on you. If you take a step and he looses focus. You train that one step until you get solid focus. That means no park that day. I would only train it for a few minutes. Otherwise it just frustrates you and the dog. I then try to end up on a good note either getting Walnut to offer a few behaviors that he will do easily in that spot. And use major rewards. 
It is what Charliethree said Walnut does not get to do what he wants if you don't get what you want. It could happen in one day if he holds his focus the whole way or it could take those few minutes for a week or two.
At home training I would only work with his kibble. For places of high distraction I would work with really high valued treats.
If your dog loves the game of tug I would practice very short games of tugging at home. (15 to 30 seconds only) After he outs/gives I would ask for a behavior.
another game.
This may look silly but in the yard I would then get the tug toy play the 30 seconds don't ask for the out and walk away fast if he runs with you close to a heel position I would give the tug a few tugs and let go and walk on. I would then change up and go the other way. This will be fun for Walnut and build up memory for him to be by your side and also make him think it is fun to be by your side.

If he can do this and loves the game of tug I would use that as the reward when you are practicing going to the park. So sometimes I would use the high value food and sometimes I would use the tug.
After Walnut is giving you some of what you want going to the park you can put a long line on him and play the back and forth tug game a little. This again will build up a happy memory of being at your side.

Training sessions really shouldn't go more than about 5 minutes at a time. But you build up to that 5 minutes. And if you incorporate the toys into the training rewards you can do lots more training sessions throughout each day. 

Many trainers/handlers use life rewards. Such as sniffing the grass or something else the dog likes to do in the enviroment. There is a scientific principle called Premack.
An example of this was when your mom would say if you eat everything on your plate you get to watch your favorite movie or you get to go play outside.

You figure out what safe enviromental things are really important to Walnut and you can incorporate letting him do those things while training. 
Food, toys, and life rewards gives you more rewards in your training tool box.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> "Thanks for the tip. I'll try this method this weekend and share the results. When should we stop? I mean, when do we know he's had enough?"
> 
> Dogs are really smart. If they know they will eventually get what they want they know they can play you and wait you out as you will eventually give them what they want.
> 
> ...


This is great information, solinvictus. Thank you so much.
I got pretty antsy last night, and decided to start training again early. I wanted to see at what point he loses focus. 

- I started inside at home, with no distractions - no problem
- Elevator - no problem
- lobby area in our condo - no problem (as in I have his full attention)
- Took him for a walk around the block - no problem (no pulling, and looks up at me every 5-10 seconds)

We stopped on the sidewalk (he sits on my right when I stop), and i gave him the "Go Sniff" command. So he did. I joined him on the grass, and suddenly, getting his attention was MUCH harder. 

So I ended up having a quick 3-4 minute training session there just to get his attention (click + treat for eye contact). Eventually I was able to get a solid 7-8 seconds of eye contact. I'm going to go back to all the basics again - only outdoors and away from other dogs, parks, etc. Just on grass. 

I took him out BEFORE dinner last night, and had given him a smaller breakfast. He FINALLY accepted his treats (cheese), and was very willing to train. We normally feed him 1 cup in the morning, and 2 cups at night. Instead, I gave him 1/2 cup in the morning, and 2 cups after training.

I took him outside this morning before work for another quick 5-10 minute training session. He responded quite well to "come" on long leash. When he came back, I clicked, treated, and told him to "go sniff". I did this 10-12 times successfully. The 13th time, he did not respond and just kept sniffing, so I just left it at that and moved on to other basic things (sit, down, stay, leave it, touch, etc) on grass. He performed all the basic commands with no issues on grass this morning. 


I noticed a few things, and I'm wondering if you've ever encountered this:

*DAY TIME *
- He's much more focused during daylight, and MUCH easier to train.
- When he walks next to me in daytime, he never looks behind him. He always looking forward, left, right and up at me. 

*NIGHT TIME *
- When it's night time, he loses focus very quickly
- He seems to "scan" A LOT
- He's constantly turning his head to look back on night walks (no pulling or stopping, just looks back a lot)
- When he sits by my right side, his ear perk up and eyes seem to focus on the smallest moving objects (night time) and he hardly looks up at me. 
- Last night, I had him in a long down position, but his focus was completely on HVAC system noise on a nearby building. I could not get his focus until the noise stopped. 
- When he seems people moving in the dark, across the street, he seems to focus too much on them. 


I didn't just notice this last night. I've been watching his behaviour and noticed these things overtime. He gets frequent night time walks, and has been since he was 8 weeks. He hasn't had any negative experiences during night that would scare him. Strangely enough, most of his training throughout his life HAS been during night time (outdoors), since he was a winter pup. 

Could he be scared of the dark? 

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'll try to come back and post my results, and would appreciate any additional tips to get Walnut's behaviour and training back to where it was 2-3 months ago. I'm going to try to keep him on leash as much as possible, as he's lost my trust with his lack of recall. Until we can get his recall back to 100%, we'll keep him on leash around other dogs. We probably should anyway, as he's still not neutered. 

Thanks again


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

NIGHT TIME 
- When it's night time, he loses focus very quickly
- He seems to "scan" A LOT
- He's constantly turning his head to look back on night walks (no pulling or stopping, just looks back a lot)
- When he sits by my right side, his ear perk up and eyes seem to focus on the smallest moving objects (night time) and he hardly looks up at me. 
- Last night, I had him in a long down position, but his focus was completely on HVAC system noise on a nearby building. I could not get his focus until the noise stopped. 
- When he seems people moving in the dark, across the street, he seems to focus too much on them. 
____________________________________-

At some point at night something spooked him. It could have been anything. It could have been so small that it wasn't even noticed by you. A gust of wind moved something across a yard, a screen door closing just a little louder than normal, someone yelling in the distance, it could have been anything.

At night sounds travel farther. He hears, sees, and registers scents way before you are even aware of them.
Out of your info above sounds and movement at night are making him uneasy. When out and about at night if you see/recognize something that is causing him that little bit of worry back up a step or two or three and play a game of look at that.
You can even practice it a little in the day time so he learns the game.
Make sure you are at a distance that he isn't really stressed. When he looks at an object, or person say yes and reward. The more you do this the less time he will look at the scary thing and the more he will look to you. Again you build on his successes as he gains confidence and looks at you you can make the game a little harder by shortening the distance by a step or so at a time. In the beginning of the game you are not rewarding the focus on you but for being brave and looking at the scary object. It is the opposite of focusing on you but in the end you get great focus on you when he decides each individual object isn't that big of a deal.

"would appreciate any additional tips to get Walnut's behaviour and training back to where it was 2-3 months ago"

Walnut is a young dog. What seems to happen is WE slack off on our expectations of the criteria we want. Over a very short time they pick up on that and run with it. Part of the reason we slack off is because we know they got it. We become a little complacent and lazy. Dogs under two really need a lot of maintance training with the skills they know. We don't want to be nags but we still need to reward for lots of the good behaviors. Usually if you have had a dog through it's puppyhood after the age of two they still need maintanence training but not as much but we still need to not slack off on our expectations.
We have to have good consistent habits and expect the same from them.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

solinvictus said:


> NIGHT TIME
> - When it's night time, he loses focus very quickly
> - He seems to "scan" A LOT
> - He's constantly turning his head to look back on night walks (no pulling or stopping, just looks back a lot)
> ...


This is great. Thank you once again for the information. 
I'll try rewarding him for focusing on things that make him uneasy, to hopefully, make him feel comfortable eventually. 

I wasn't aware of how different things are to him at night! Poor guy.  I just thought he'd rather watch an old lady cross the road than to perform a command when I ask him to. :doh:

*"..we still need to not slack off.."*
I'll admit. We did slack a tiny bit. But to him, it's probably A LOT more slack than it is for us. 

Thanks solinvictus!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Just wanted to add: Dogs can go through a 'fear' period between 8 -14 months. Do your best to make 'scarey' stuff less scarey. 
Remember to reward that 'offered attention; (when Walnut looks to you/makes eye contact, without you asking) with praise, always, and a treat occassionally. It is a valuable skill for your dog to have and you wouldn't want it to fade away.
Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with Walnut but be careful not to 'over do' it - when training/practicing a skill, always try to end the session on a high note,(success) - quit before he quits. You mentioned he was doing so well on recall, but failed at the 13th attempt, not his fault, he had had enough. Sniffing is a calming signal, it is a dog's way of saying he is stressed, and needs to take a break, or do something else. You have a young dog, 'push' a little, but keep it fun and rewarding for you both. 
You sound very dedicated to Walnut, keep it up! Every dog should be so lucky!


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Charliethree said:


> Just wanted to add: Dogs can go through a 'fear' period between 8 -14 months. Do your best to make 'scarey' stuff less scarey.
> Remember to reward that 'offered attention; (when Walnut looks to you/makes eye contact, without you asking) with praise, always, and a treat occassionally. It is a valuable skill for your dog to have and you wouldn't want it to fade away.
> Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job with Walnut but be careful not to 'over do' it - when training/practicing a skill, always try to end the session on a high note,(success) - quit before he quits. You mentioned he was doing so well on recall, but failed at the 13th attempt, not his fault, he had had enough. Sniffing is a calming signal, it is a dog's way of saying he is stressed, and needs to take a break, or do something else. You have a young dog, 'push' a little, but keep it fun and rewarding for you both.
> You sound very dedicated to Walnut, keep it up! Every dog should be so lucky!


Thanks Charliethree. 
I did read about the fear period, but I thought it was between 8-10 months. I just did a quick search on the GRF and yes, you're right, it's actually 8-14mths. That could be a possibility too. 

We're really dedicated to helping Walnut. He's honestly the funniest, smartest, most emotional dog we've ever met. This is also our first pet ever, and we appreciate how easy he's made it for us.

*Here is an update, and a question:*
- The biggest problem was that we were getting him overly excited. We would get home, and play right away, pet, etc. He'd get crazy excited and would remain excited for a good 30 minutes before calming down. 

- People in our condo, friends, and family love him. And he loves them. We always allowed people to pet him freely, and again, he would get SOOO excited he won't know what to do. He usually ends up biting his leash from excitement (if no toys are around). 

*So...*
- Starting 2 days ago, we completely ignore him when we get home. The first day we tried this, he was REALLY confused. He was going crazy, and would try to go between our legs and whatnot to play. The second day was better. We go home, ignored him, he went nuts for about 2 minutes and immediately calmed down. Once calm, we slowly approached him, and just said hi (no touch). 

- We had a family event last night, with a bunch of people he loves and people who love him, and always play with him. My parents LOVE getting him excited and playing. Anyway. we gave everyone a heads up noticed to ignore him completely. Not even eye contacts. JACKPOT! What a difference. He was excited at first, but calmed down VERY quickly. He just laid down 80% of the time and looked (and still looks) pretty upset. 

- Took him for a walk before work, and thought I was going to have to deal with a super hyper dog. Surprisingly, he was extremely calm the entire time. 

*Question*
I am still having trouble with getting his attention. This morning was super foggy, and you could only make out silhouettes of people. He walked very nicely, and would look up at me occasionally, but anytime there was a silhouette of someone walking, I couldn't regain his focus. I asked him to sit (he did, very calmly, to my right), and stayed in sit position the entire time the person walked by. 

I clicked and tried to treat (he didn't accept, so I pet and said good boy), and continued walking. Every time someone walked by or even across the street though, we had to stop. If we didn't stop, he would still walke calmly beside me, but his full focus on the person walking. 

He accepted treats once his mind "Reset" and person disappeared.

So my question is, do this go back to the whole fear thing? Or is he waiting for an opportunity for me to say "Hello" the stranger so he can get a bunch of attention? We normally cannot have him sit nicely while we talk to a stranger. 

Finally, what would be my best approach to this? Do I:
- ignore it and keep walking until distraction goes away?
- give him a soft tug to remind him to look straight?
- stop, let him observe, and say "good boy"?
- other ideas?


We also decided to come up with a brand new work for "come". In our trainers guides, it said that if he doesn't come when called, then he knows that he has a choice with that command. When that happens, it's time for a new word. 

I also successfully for 12 seconds of eye contact last night, outdoors, with leaves blowing, fog, and cars. 

We're making progress! I think the biggest thing is to refrain ourselves from letting him get too excited. I'm also going to ask everyone in our condo (nicely) not to pet him if he gets too excited. This will be hard to do, as some rude people think it's okay to just approach and touch.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

First, no more off leash time. He needs a long line attached to him. If he doesn't come, reel him in. He can not learn that coming/listening is optional. 

You need more distraction training. Get to puppy class. Training at home is different than outside or at the park. You need to gradually increase the temptation and distractions. Refrain from feeding him until its training time and use kibble for treats. If you're at a high distraction area, use SUPER high value food like cheese, meat, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Could be a combination of both - a little apprehension and anticipating a 'meeting', may be plain curiousity. I would work at getting his attention you before he has the chance to 'lock on' to the person. When you see the person in the distance, chat him up, start feeding those treats, and try to keep him moving and his attention on you. Would also suggest considering trying a variety of new treats, the 'value' of a food reward increases when it is a 'rare' and new food item. If he works well for cheese on recall, that is great, but cheese may not be high enough value when working with distractions, ignoring distractions is super tough for a dog. Keep super high value treats for training the tough stuff.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Charliethree said:


> Could be a combination of both - a little apprehension and anticipating a 'meeting', may be plain curiousity. I would work at getting his attention you before he has the chance to 'lock on' to the person. When you see the person in the distance, chat him up, start feeding those treats, and try to keep him moving and his attention on you. Would also suggest considering trying a variety of new treats, the 'value' of a food reward increases when it is a 'rare' and new food item. If he works well for cheese on recall, that is great, but cheese may not be high enough value when working with distractions, ignoring distractions is super tough for a dog. Keep super high value treats for training the tough stuff.


I've been using kibble when training inside, and cheese outside. I've tried boiled chicken, but he doesn't seem to get too excited for boiled chicken. 

Is cooked beef okay for them? I'm thinking of trying cooked steak to see how he reacts to it. 

Also, any thought on this technique? I'm thinking it may help with our problem:


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Sorry, but I have yet another question. 

It seems like when I feed him less, he's more interested in treats outdoors. We had great success when he was on an empty stomach the past two nights. 

We feed him 3 cups a day of this: Grain-Free Beef Frittata Veg dog food - Fromm Family Foods 

He's currently 65lbs, and hasn't gained any weight over the passed month (weighted at the vet). He doesn't seem to want to eat any more than 3 cups. For example, if we increase to 4 cups, he will leave about 1 cup uneaten. 

To keep him "trainable", I need to give him 1/2 cup in the morning and a little under 1.5 cups at night (after training). 

Is this enough food? almost 2 cups a day? I have reduced his exercise a bit knowing that we're feeding him a little less, and he is getting treats in between. 

Sorry for all the questions. Just want to make sure we set him up in a way were he can succeed.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I wouldn't decrease his exercise any, if his weight is good (not to bony) I would stick with the same amount.

To me it seems like the loss of focus when seeing people in the fog or at night is a fear thing. Just to be on the safe side, I might want to have his vision checked. I would do what was needed to keep him safe, keep up a reasonable amount of training (don't over-do it but don't slack off) and relax.

Also remember that he is experience a testosterone surge right now (males have the highest amount of testosterone between 11 and say 14 months). That will probably make him feel odd and may contribute to his lack of attention.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Walnut_the_Nut said:


> Sorry, but I have yet another question.
> 
> It seems like when I feed him less, he's more interested in treats outdoors. We had great success when he was on an empty stomach the past two nights.
> 
> ...


It sounds like enough, given the calorie count for the food you are feeding. Keep an eye on him, if he starts looking skinny, up his food, mental exercise (training) burns calories too. 
Try a few diffent types of treats, and see which ones 'knock his socks off', my dogs go nuts over Rollover (turkey or beef) and Purebites freeze dried beef liver treats (low in calories), and they would 'kill' for cooked beef. Keep the treats tiny (pea sized), they will work for cheap! 
LAT training can help, (I have used it successfully, to counter condition my fearful dog) but right now I would focus on finding at least a couple of high value rewards (trial and error) that he gets super excited about (and use them only when training with distractions). If it is 'worth' working for, they will 'work for it'.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Selli-Belle said:


> I wouldn't decrease his exercise any, if his weight is good (not to bony) I would stick with the same amount.
> 
> To me it seems like the loss of focus when seeing people in the fog or at night is a fear thing. Just to be on the safe side, I might want to have his vision checked. I would do what was needed to keep him safe, keep up a reasonable amount of training (don't over-do it but don't slack off) and relax.
> 
> Also remember that he is experience a testosterone surge right now (males have the highest amount of testosterone between 11 and say 14 months). That will probably make him feel odd and may contribute to his lack of attention.


Thanks for the comments. I don't think he's bony, but then he is smaller than most other Golden's i see around our area. I have noticed that he seems to get tired a little quicker with the decreased amount of food. 

Perhaps he knows that he's had enough exercise?


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Charliethree said:


> It sounds like enough, given the calorie count for the food you are feeding. Keep an eye on him, if he starts looking skinny, up his food, mental exercise (training) burns calories too.
> *Try a few diffent types of treats, and see which ones 'knock his socks off',* my dogs go nuts over Rollover (turkey or beef) and Purebites freeze dried beef liver treats (low in calories), and they would 'kill' for cooked beef. Keep the treats tiny (pea sized), they will work for cheap!
> LAT training can help, (I have used it successfully, to counter condition my fearful dog) but right now I would focus on finding at least a couple of high value rewards (trial and error) that he gets super excited about (and use them only when training with distractions). If it is 'worth' working for, they will 'work for it'.



BINGO! Went to the local grocery store last night and picked up fresh beef liver ($3). Boiled it with a little bit of garlic power, then put it in the oven for 30 minutes at 200. 

After training indoors, I took him outside to play LAT game (outside, night), but with no cue. 

People walked by, dogs walked by, cyclist, etc. He took quick glances but never lost focus. Every time his head turned away from me, it took only about 1-2 second before his head returned and he made eye contact with me (at which point I clicked and treated). 

Last night was HUGE progress. No pulling, no loss of focus (at all..not once), and sat beside me every time I stopped. 

I also took the time to play the recall game with my new cue on a long leash, and that was a success too. He responded every single time. 


I tried again this morning for a quick 5 minutes (outside, daylight), and although he responded well, he was definitely more distracted vs. last night. Still, not one missed "look at that", and no pulling at all. 

I'm going to give him a break today and not train at all, then he has his first class in Foundations tomorrow AM.

edit* On my way back home, I ask out security guard to help me a bit (he LOVEEES our security guy). He offered to be a distraction for Walnut. I was amazed. Not once did he lose focus. My security guy jumped around, called his name, made funny noises. Walnut didn't budge. He took quick glances and looked back. 


That being said, when should I stop clicking and treating him for not getting fixated and too hyper? I don't want to have to rely on liver forever.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Walnut_the_Nut said:


> BINGO! Went to the local grocery store last night and picked up fresh beef liver ($3). Boiled it with a little bit of garlic power, then put it in the oven for 30 minutes at 200.
> 
> After training indoors, I took him outside to play LAT game (outside, night), but with no cue.
> 
> ...


 
Wonderful!!! good job both of you!! Once he 'has' the behavior, automatically turning back to you after looking, in a wide variety of situations, then you can stop clicking, but keep food rewarding, and slowly phase out the treats, over time, but make sure he is still getting lots of praise as a reward. (Also suggest, give a 'jackpot' of several treats in a row and lots of praise, when he 'blows your mind'! Such as above with the security guard.) Be careful not to cut out the food rewards too quickly, this is tough for him, and it will take lots of practice and reward sessions to make it a habit. Far better to practice with success, than to push too much and have him fail. Make sure to reward with praise and or lower value treat, those 'offered' behaviors you do want, even when you are not 'training', you want them to become 'habit'. Never stop rewarding recall, doesn't always have to be food rewards, but an occassional surprise will keeping him coming back.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Charliethree said:


> Wonderful!!! good job both of you!! Once he 'has' the behavior, automatically turning back to you after looking, in a wide variety of situations, then you can stop clicking, but keep food rewarding, and slowly phase out the treats, over time, but make sure he is still getting lots of praise as a reward. (Also suggest, give a 'jackpot' of several treats in a row and lots of praise, when he 'blows your mind'! Such as above with the security guard.) Be careful not to cut out the food rewards too quickly, this is tough for him, and it will take lots of practice and reward sessions to make it a habit. Far better to practice with success, than to push too much and have him fail. Make sure to reward with praise and or lower value treat, those 'offered' behaviors you do want, even when you are not 'training', you want them to become 'habit'. Never stop rewarding recall, doesn't always have to be food rewards, but an occassional surprise will keeping him coming back.


Awesome! Will do. I'll be sure to phase him off treats super slow. I do feel like i'm pressuring him a bit, so i'm giving him today off . I can really tell he's mentally exhausted, and just pushing to work for the treats.

I find it really strange that he didn't respond so well with the store bought Freeze Dried Liver, yet goes crazy for home boiled/baked liver. I even got chicken liver ($1.50 for a decent amount), and he seems to like that even more than beef liver. So it's not only MUCH cheaper to just boiled our own store bought liver, but works tons better than freeze dried ones. 

Thanks again for all the tips and help. I'll post back our progress as we slowly increase distractions.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

That is the look at that game I had suggested. 

It takes about 500 successful repetitions of training for a dog to really own a behavior. Since there is some anxiety involved with your distraction training and it seems to be associated with more than one thing it may even take longer than 500 repetitions. I would continue to reward for a really long time on this. 
What you could do is eventually mix in some of Walnuts kibble with the really high value rewards and use both as the reward. 

Once you really think Walnut owns the behaviors you still want to reward but on a more intermittent schedule sometimes with high rewards, sometimes with low rewards, sometimes with praise.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

We're making good progress!
He occasionally gets fixated on certain things, but not nearly as long or "hard" as before. He'll focus for about 1-2 seconds, and I'll say "Let's go", and we continue walking. No needs to tug the leash. He chooses to listen. 

We've also been able to calm him down A LOT. With the help of our security guard, cleaners in the condo, and everyone else he REALLY loves, we are now able to have people approach him without him going insanely happy. He stays relatively calm. We're still working on this. 

He also had his 1st Foundations class on Saturday, which went surprisingly well. Our trainer thought he did well, considering he is probably "at his peak with hormones". 

We did have an incident over the weekend, which really upset us. We went to petsmart, and he was doing fairly well...until I noticed his leg high up in the air. Yup. He marked. To be fair, another owners dog had peed right there and did not care to clean up. Still. Unacceptable for us. He had marked/peed only one other time indoors (at friend's house). So we went back to Petsmart to pick up some other toys, and this time, he didn't even bother sniffing or anything. 

He's going to be neutered in 2 months (will be 14 months old). I'm hoping he remains calm, quiet, and well mannered after being neutered. I've read sometimes dogs can develop bad behaviours after being neutered - but again - that might just be a training issue.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"We're making good progress!"

Great news! Don't be discouraged if you have a bad day/minute here or there. Walnut is a very young dog and just like us sometimes we/they don't make good decisions. So, celebrate all the progress and just note when something isn't going right and find a way to change it up. It is usually us getting sloppy in our consistency. 

"We went to petsmart, and he was doing fairly well...until I noticed his leg high up in the air. Yup. He marked. To be fair, another owners dog had peed right there and did not care to clean up. Still. Unacceptable for us. He had marked/peed only one other time indoors (at friend's house)."

You are right it is unacceptable behavior. But, everything is a learning curve. Petsmart is just not the same as a home/house and another dog had peed there. It just means you need to have lots of successful training sessions going to petsmart with Walnut. (I think he was in my head when I wrote that) I kept seeing you buying lots of toys.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Good to hear you are doing so well!
Sorry your pup surprised and embarrassed you at the store, though not all that surprising that it happened. Dogs will mark where others have 'gone before', it is a natural behavior, sometimes they just can't resist the 'invitation'! I know it can happen pretty fast! 
No, neutering does not 'cause' bad behavior.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

Just wanted to post back to say that Walnut is completely "cured" of fixating. 

We also just finished foundations class, and can (almost always) walk passed other dogs without much trouble. In fact, I usually just say "let's go" and he turns his head forward and continues to walk in heel position. 

Thanks for the help.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Congrats to Walnut and you for all your hard work!!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Great news! It is so nice to read that all your hard work is paying off. I do want to say that he is still young yet so, it is important to keep a watch on this that at some point he doesn't go backwards a little in his training. For some reason at different points on the way to maturity some of these guys have some kind of brain blimp.


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## Walnut_the_Nut (Jan 25, 2012)

solinvictus, you're absolutely right. We experienced this first hand. 
I've started to leave the house ensuring the clicker and treats are always with me again. We'll stay on top of it this time


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