# a dying sport



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

So as not to hijack another thread, I want to open this up for discussion.
Curious as to opinions why obedience is a dying sport. It's not the economy/gas prices, I'm sure that makes it worse, but the down trend started before the economy tanked.
When I showed Tiny and Toby (Novice A only), 12 years ago, the Novice A classes were always jammed. We normally had 2 groups of Novice A dogs at each show, and I was able to show both dogs at the same show. Entries in the "A" groups was typically in the 20-25 dogs per class range..
Now, in this area, we're lucky to have 5-6 Novice A entries.
The people showing in the "B" classes here are the same people who were showing back 12 years ago when I showed my old guys. Sure, there are new faces, but a lot of the same ones as before. What will happen when they retire from the sport?
I think one reason might be the availability of other dog sports now. Back then agility was just getting off the ground around here, tracking was unheard of, and so on. If you wanted to do anything fun with your dog, it had to be obedience. Not so any more. I know it's the main thing that has caused me to retire from obedience; there are a lot of other things that I want to do with Tito and I just don't have the time/money to do them all at the same time, something had to go.
Another thing, which I mentioned in another thread, I think is the highly competitive nature of the sport. I know some people (this doesn't apply to me, btw, as I said before I didn't give a hoot about OTCH points, HIT, high-combined etc. because it wasn't part of my personal goals for this particular dog) who are quite frustrated by the outstanding performers that they need to compete against. I'm not here to make a judgement about whether their feelings are right or wrong, just saying it's been voiced many times at our kennel club.
Any other ideas as to why the sport is dying???


----------



## Judi (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't think as Obedience as a sport.
I have a dog in a Novice class for exercise, socialization, so she doesn't become complacient and for us both to learn more.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think it's a lack of promotion of the sport. Most people have no idea obedience competitions even exist. When I tell people I show my dogs they ask if I do the beauty contest or the obstacles. I went through two Petsmart classes with Annabel and the _only _reason I found out about competitive obedience is because I loved training so much I contacted the local kennel club to ask what other options there were for me to train my dog. 

People used to take classes from clubs that would promote obedience. Now more people take classes from places like Petsmart or general pet trainers that know nothing about competitive obedience and won't ever be mentioning it in their classes. And unlike most other dog sports, you're never going to find a televised obedience competition.


----------



## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

@hotel4 dogs. 

I'm not sure which trials you are referring to in the Chicago area but..
in the fall (2010 at Glenbard, Fox Valley and others) there were way more Novice A entries than Rally Novice entries - something like 3X - in the double digits.
In training classes I am seeing new partipants in Obedience and not in Rally Obedience.
I personally think the tide is turning and folks are returning to Obedience.
I for one as a newbie dog owner started in Rally and got through all the AKC and APDT titles in 10 months with my golden and I am now focusing only on Obedience.

This weekend, the Bridget Carlsen seminar in Bartlett was packed with working spots and it was a mix of new and seasoned teams.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I'll give a go at some of my reasons 

I believe a lot of it is the availability of the other sports and even Rally, because although closely related to obedience Rally allows you to communicate with your dog and you will rarely have the same pattern twice so you have both variability and the ability to communicate going. In obedience you can take a scoring hit for so much as smiling at your dog so it is less of a team sport.

It truly takes years to train and show a dog through Utility and while agility is getting more difficult & technical, it is again more of a team (you and your dog) sport. Same with Hunt Tests, tracking etc. 

Obedience is a beautiful dance, but it is a quiet one. It is also prone to favortism and competitiveness that are not always fun.

I am a rarity in some ways since while I love obedience, I hate the (to me) monotony of heeling; I want to get to the fun stuff - the retrieves, the recalls, the jumping which the other sports also address.


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Long sits and downs :

Seriously, I see it too, when I was showing many years ago, (back when I knew how to train a dog), the Novice classes were packed, as you said. Now, I don't know. 

Obedience is just not as exciting as the other dog sports, I guess. And you know, generally speaking, in our little corner of the world, the B class obedience people (most of them OTCH trainers) that show around here are rather snobbish and unfriendly. Don't get me wrong there are more fun and great people than the holier than thou crowd, but there is a feeling of superiority that is almost tangible. I may not be getting my meaning across. Maybe new people are intimidated by what they see when they observe these awesome, but lofty people. Don't know. Long story short, I don't have a clue.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I am really glad to hear you say that, I haven't seen Novice A entries in the double digits in ages. We haven't shown since last November, that was in Champaign/Urbana. Prior to that the shows at DuPage County Fairgrounds, St. Joe MI shows, maybe we bumped into each other!
For a while rally entries were huge, but yes, people say they are down now. 
Bridget is wonderful, her seminar here was sold out I believe.




rhondas said:


> @hotel4 dogs.
> 
> I'm not sure which trials you are referring to in the Chicago area but..
> in the fall (2010 at Glenbard, Fox Valley and others) there were way more Novice A entries than Rally Novice entries - something like 3X - in the double digits.
> ...


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I'll tell you why I never persued more obedience classes - lack of classes for the dog owner that has a day job.

I was very fortunate to have a great school less than a mile from my last home. People did travel over an hour to go to class there.

The basic and puppy classes were held late ( I think Brady's class was 8:30 at night, which was perfect for a working mother ). After that all classes started at 5 or 6 - when you live in the Boston area, even if you leave work at 4, you are not going to get there on time, and a lot of them were even at 9 or 10 in the morning.

Sometimes there would be a session on Saturday morning, but because the school held so many competitions on the weekends, there were not that many on the weekends too.


----------



## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

cubbysan said:


> I'll tell you why I never persued more obedience classes - lack of classes for the dog owner that has a day job.
> 
> I was very fortunate to have a great school less than a mile from my last home. People did travel over an hour to go to class there.
> 
> ...


THANK YOU!

This is a huge freaking pet peeve of mine. I work until 5:30, at least. Every day. The flat out criticism I get from trainers when I call to ask about classes/lessons is ridiculous. Only one trainer in my area has privates available in the evenings and weekends, and there are really no group classes past Novice level in the evenings or weekends.

I'm really okay training for Novice and Open by myself- done it before, etc- but need lessons or a class for Utility. I'm doing privates when I can with the one trainer, but between her show schedule and Oz's, it gets complicated. 

And Novice A entries are wayyyyyyy down here. I was obedience trial chair for our golden specialty this spring. Open and utility filled- but we only had 3 novice dogs. Rally was a really low entry too.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I think there are many reasons obedience entries are down. 
I do believe the economy and price of entries, gas etc. have had a negative effect.
I believe Rally has hurt some. The original idea the AKC said was to groom new people to go on to obedience. I believe it has created it's own following of folks who will never show in obedience. A small number may, but noot the majority of "Rally" people. I believe Rally numbers are down from what they were originally because a lot of obedience folks brought out their retire obedience dogs for new titles. once that initial push subsided the numbers have leveled off.
People have found many other ways to spend their leisure time and disposable income.
And most of all I think agility has had by far and away the single largest negative impact on obedience. Even the "big" trainers/handlers have switched allegiance over the years. I do not remember the last time I say Terri Arnold or Diane Bauman at an obedience trial back here in the east. They were staples back when I started. I know a lot of folks I use to compete with in obedience and agility that I never see any longer at obedience trials.


----------



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

1) Pet training classes used to be competition prep classes. Now we can teach more effective pet dog manners in other ways. However....you don't have these hoards of people that could go to competition with just a bit of prodding.
2) There are a lot of other options. In many ways, you have to be better at training to do well in obedience. Non passing scores are almost more acceptable in other activities....not that I think it's a good thing. But you'll see FAR more people entering agility before they're ready, compared to obedience....because they can get away wtih it and sometimes pass, thus reinforcing the behavior of the human.
3) Many of the competition obedience classes are not designed for success of dogs or humans.
4) People don't know what it is.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

RedDogs said:


> 3) Many of the competition obedience classes are not designed for success of dogs or humans.



I mam confused by what this means. :scratchch


----------



## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

We have this discussion at our club sometimes. Where is everyone?

I notice that most of the people involved in obedience (and the other dog sports too!) are mostly older, or people with no children, or children who flew the coop.

I agree with ambikagr about times have changed and people spend their leisure time differently these days. With 2 parents working and the advent of structured sports, all my friends my age with children spend all their time working then weekends shuttling kids to organized sporting events. 

Also with advent of TV, computers, gaming consoles, many my age stay (and especially kids, who won't be replacing us in the ring someday) stay home watching TV and DVDs or playing on the computer, Gameboy, Xbox, and Wii, instead of go outside and play or do something constructive like we did in Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts. 

My brother and his gf are very proud of their 4 year old who LOVES to play on the computer already. He watches movies, plays games. They seem to think he's a genius but I kept my mouth shut about my thoughts about another couch potato of the future.

Hopefully there will be enough active people with enough free time to keep it going. I agree with some of the other points people have brought up too.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

*(1) *

I think it's partly because of the puppy and obedience 1 classes that people are going to even at respectable training clubs. They are mainly set up for people who are just there for socialization and can be as boring as hell. ! 

And a lot of the time the people teaching the classes have no experience in the show ring themselves or have never gotten past the beginning levels, so they don't have a lot of the real world knowledge about how to fix problems with dogs or inspire people to do something fun like obedience with their dogs. And sometimes they get so hooked on using food and equipment to train the dogs with that they absolutely forget that training is supposed to be fun and exciting for both the dog and the trainer.

*(2)*

And cost is a big issue for people in this economy. It's a fact of life that if you want to get a title on your dog, you can expect to pay at least $500 on lessons a year. If people are also paying for extracurricular activities for their human kids, they're not going to be able to foot the dog class bill. 

My oldest sister is one of those people. And she's passed that love of dogs and training down to my niece. But they can't afford $300 a year on dog classes. Not while my niece is also taking tennis lessons and her parents are also paying for private school. 

*(3)* 

Impatience - most people don't want to spent a mininum two years training their dog before they get to show. Back when my sister helped out at puppy class, that was something that came up time and again - people liked training their dogs, but they were always asking "When can we show?"

*(4) *

People who want titles on their dogs now have easier routes with CGC and Rally. They get those on their dogs and aren't in a hurry to get into novice because of the off leash work. <- Heck, I remember what that was like with my first golden. 

I do think Rally's to blame considering HOW MANY people were int the rally classes at the trials I went to. A lot of them were younger and looked new at it (even though there were definitely a few Utility dogs whooshing through there). 

*(5)*

Newbies think it's an old lady sport because of who is competing right now. 

*(6) *

Did I mention overreliance on food and equipment yet? 

*(7)*

Lack of recognition... <- I was thinking about this while watching a dog show. When you get titles and ribbons, you sort of want an audience to be there watching you score. But sadly, when you go to some of these trials, the only people sitting ringside are people who are waiting for their turn. On one hand, that might be a wundabah thing if you are shy and get stage fright. But geez. You have the TV cameras on dock jumping and conformation, but when was the last time you got to see obedience trials on TV? >.< 

^^^^ About the times for training, that hasn't been a problem where I train. And most of the people I train with have day jobs. That's why most of the weekday classes are in the evenings....


----------



## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> Impatience - most people don't want to spent a mininum two years training their dog before they get to show.


That is a very good point along with the costs. Also, which would be more fun? Spending those 2 years training to show in obedience or training for agility??

Which is more fun for the dog and trainer??

Rally included.

As far as field I can get at least two titles before my pup is a year old. Radar had his Senior by 2 and there are many that have gotten their Masters before 2 yrs.


----------



## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

I see the same thing in my area. Novice A entries (and entries in general) are not nearly what they were even 10 years ago. I see many more new people interested in agility rather than obedience. The typical answer I get from them is that it's "more fun" than obedience.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Radar's Dad - I think the joy depends on the dog. If you have a golden retriever who excels at obedience competition. Who shines. Who will go out into the ring with you and transfix everyone watching - that makes those 2 years worth it. Right down to that feeling you get where your dog is every inch a show dog just for you. 

When you consider how many golden retrievers OWN the obedience ring, it's amazing that more people haven't caught the fevah.  

But then again - most people don't get to see and feel that whole experience of training a dog.


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Megora said:


> @Radar's Dad - I think the joy depends on the dog. If you have a golden retriever who excels at obedience competition. Who shines. Who will go out into the ring with you and transfix everyone watching - that makes those 2 years worth it. Right down to that feeling you get where your dog is every inch a show dog just for you.
> 
> When you consider how many golden retrievers OWN the obedience ring, it's amazing that more people haven't caught the fevah.
> 
> But then again - most people don't get to see and feel that whole experience of training a dog.


I HAVE THE FEVAH:wavey:


----------



## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> But then again - most people don't get to see and feel that whole experience of training a dog.


True,and I probably didn't express it well, but what I was trying to get at was a lot of people want to see the fruits of their labor and want recognition,and gratification quickly.
Sort of like I want my Luxury car and my Mansion right now!!
Not willing to labor away without results for a long period of time.

Pup's probably having a good time just being with you and most enjoy the training and the attention they get. 
They don't know what a title is. I doubt they care which one it is. All they know is they have a job and your attention and they love it.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

a lot of really great feedback here, some things I had thought of, quite a lot I had not. Thanks!


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Last weekends attendance in Scarborough,ME:
Usually this show draws more obed folks from NH-MA-VT, however from what I gather, the Obed Judge for both Sat&Sun is connected to one of the better known Obed training facilities NH therefore a conflict of interest to show under him.....its too bad becuase it seems like it hurt the entries...


Utility B - 5
Utility A - 1

Open B - 5
Open A - 4 

Novice B - 2
Novice A - 1 (this was sad)

RallyEx B - 7
RallyEx A - 1

RallyAdv B - 5
RAllyAdv A - 8

RallyNov B - 15 (most were familiar obed faces testing the waters with their Obed dogs)
RallyNovA - 8


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I can share my own experience in dog sports to give a clue, but in short it is in my opinion that people and dogs find agility more fun!

When I was young in the late 70s early 80s, my sister was trialing a nationally ranked obedience GSD and I frequently went to trials with her, so I was quite familiar with obedience. I entered my first Golden in a trial about 10 years ago, but we didn't qualify, someone was doing a drop on recall when we were in Long sits and downs and Dexy went down on command, just not my command. However, I felt really out of place at the trial and it did not seem that anyone including the judge made an attempt to make me feel comfortable.

Fast forward to Selli as a pup, six years ago. I got her with the intention of trying everything with her so at six months we started both a puppy agility class and a beginning competition obedience class. Selli loved the agility class but checked out after about 30 minutes in the obedience class. Now Selli was a kind of unusual Golden, she loved her walks but was kind of lazy until she was two years old when she suddenly turned into a machine in terms of energy, so I decided to focus on agility where I could rev her up and play with her. 

We started trialing in agility when she was about 27 months and although I found the first few trials nerve-racking everyone was friendly, the atmosphere seemed casual and festive and I caught on pretty quickly. Then we trained and trialed for rally and novice obedience and I found the trial atmosphere far more formal and serious although by that time the AKC had changed the rules so it would be more welcoming to beginners and my club was great at their trial about encouraging people in Novice A (we got a gift basket!)

Then there is the whole question of training techniques. I have stated in a number of threads that my philosophy is that I will not use a physical aversive on Selli while training for a dog sport. In agility most people train without physical aversives so the sport, as a whole is based on training that agrees with me. However, in obedience you have to search to find a coach who doesn't use aversives. I have to think that most pet owners when they are exposed to the techniques that the standard competition obedience teacher uses would be taken aback by the harshness and choose not to put their dogs through the training. The use of harsh techniques makes the whole thing NOT fun for me. And the knowledge of how some of the dogs are being trained to some extent taints the sport for me.

Luckily I have found a coach who I love and I hope we can start training again once my life gets straighten out and can trial again maybe next year.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think those kinds of entries end up causing a circular problem....there aren't enough entries to pay the judges, or at least not 2 judges. So you end up with just one judge, and then a lot of people won't show in a show where there is just one judge (the Open B/Util B people) because the shows take too long, so the entries go down even more...
I hope your judges were local, having to pay travel expenses would be a killer for the club.



LibertyME said:


> Last weekends attendance in Scarborough,ME:
> Usually this show draws more obed folks from NH-MA-VT, however from what I gather, the Obed Judge for both Sat&Sun is connected to one of the better known Obed training facilities NH therefore a conflict of interest to show under him.....its too bad becuase it seems like it hurt the entries...
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Then there is the whole question of training techniques. I have stated in a number of threads that my philosophy is that I will not use a physical aversive on Selli while training for a dog sport. In agility most people train without physical aversives so the sport, as a whole is based on training that agrees with me. However, in obedience you have to search to find a coach who doesn't use aversives. I have to think that most pet owners when they are exposed to the techniques that the standard competition obedience teacher uses would be taken aback by the harshness and choose not to put their dogs through the training. The use of harsh techniques makes the whole thing NOT fun for me. And the knowledge of how some of the dogs are being trained to some extent taints the sport for me.


^^^ I guess to be fair, I think the fear and nervousness about using harsh techniques is the reason I haven't tried hunt yet... 

But I haven't exactly been forced to use any of that in competition obedience. Keep in mind my golden would develop a phobia about dog class if it were the least bit scary or painful for him. He's a slitherer outerer when it comes to scary things.  

One of the instructors I take classes with now (Adele) may use harsh methods (I guess?) but I've never seen her use them on her dogs and she's certainly not pushing anybody to do so with their dogs. 

I thought I'd point that out so prospective obedience training people out there don't get freaked out about the DARK SIDE of training. 

If somebody uses a method you don't feel comfortable with, just tell them you aren't going to do that. I've done that before with a past instructor and still got plenty out of those classes. Actually, that instructor taught me more in a year than my previous instructor taught me in five years.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Yes the Judge was within driving distance...

This was also the Sunday entries in a 4 day cluster - Saturdays number were slightly higher if I remember correctly.
I wonder if it was light due to it being the 4th day?




LibertyME said:


> Last weekends attendance in Scarborough,ME:
> Usually this show draws more obed folks from NH-MA-VT, however from what I gather, the Obed Judge for both Sat&Sun is connected to one of the better known Obed training facilities NH therefore a conflict of interest to show under him.....its too bad becuase it seems like it hurt the entries...
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've never understood the comments that obedience training isn't fun. My dogs and I have a blast training and showing in obedience! And also comments that there isn't enough interaction between dog and handler. How many other dog sports allow you to pet your dog during the middle of its run? And to me the silent communication that I have with my dogs during an exercise is much greater than any verbal communication I could give. We love obedience. It's all a big party for us! arty2::artydude


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Liberty actually loved obed too she thought it was grand!
I took her out last night just to practice heeling patterns (I need the practice not her! ...She was in her glory! silly-girl!


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I've never understood the comments that obedience training isn't fun. My dogs and I have a blast training and showing in obedience! And also comments that there isn't enough interaction between dog and handler. How many other dog sports allow you to pet your dog during the middle of its run? And to me the silent communication that I have with my dogs during an exercise is much greater than any verbal communication I could give. We love obedience. It's all a big party for us! arty2::artydude


Jodie, I get the feeling your whole life is a big party! Would love to be able to hang with you and the "kids".


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

me too, me too!



DNL2448 said:


> Jodie, I get the feeling your whole life is a big party! Would love to be able to hang with you and the "kids".


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> me too, me too!


Well, duh...that goes without saying. Didn't someone have kissing smiley faces in an earlier post today? :


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

LOL - Jodie that is exactly why you pull such high scores 



Loisiana said:


> I've never understood the comments that obedience training isn't fun. My dogs and I have a blast training and showing in obedience! And also comments that there isn't enough interaction between dog and handler. How many other dog sports allow you to pet your dog during the middle of its run? And to me the silent communication that I have with my dogs during an exercise is much greater than any verbal communication I could give. We love obedience. It's all a big party for us! arty2::artydude


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Dang it all!! This thread has me wanting to get Faelan and Casey in the Open ring


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I think the thing that concerns me most about the future of Obedience is the aging of the judging corps and the lack of new blood to keep it going. At least here in my area of the country, that is the case.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sunrise said:


> Dang it all!! This thread has me wanting to get Faelan and Casey in the Open ring


I'm just wishing this stormy weather would GO AWAY so I can take the little boy to obedience class. We missed two weeks now because of storms. 

As it is, I had to be satisfied with training out in the rain when I got home a short while ago. 

Would you look at this face? That's the same cute face I see when we heel with him (albeit not always that sopping wet). How could I NOT love heeling with him? 










And we are totally teammates.

Except for the stays. We aren't on the same book yet where it comes to him being my teammate across the floor from me.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Jodie, I get the feeling your whole life is a big party! Would love to be able to hang with you and the "kids".


Oh yeah, nothing but a big party here. Just like right now sitting on the couch watching a rerun of Oprah and eating a subway sandwich. Party on! ROFL


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Megora said:


> ^^^ I guess to be fair, I think the fear and nervousness about using harsh techniques is the reason I haven't tried hunt yet...
> 
> But I haven't exactly been forced to use any of that in competition obedience. Keep in mind my golden would develop a phobia about dog class if it were the least bit scary or painful for him. He's a slitherer outerer when it comes to scary things.
> 
> ...


I am not suggesting at all that Adele uses harsh methods. It is other situations where I have encountered what I consider harsh training techniques. And yes, I could just say I am not going to use them in the class, but it bothers me to see others using them. I know several others who are actively involved in agility who chose not to compete in obedience or to compete infrequently due to the prevalence of harsher training techniques used in the sport.

I agree that obedience can be made to be fun, but for me agility is inherently fun!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh my, this area too....



AmbikaGR said:


> I think the thing that concerns me most about the future of Obedience is the aging of the judging corps and the lack of new blood to keep it going. At least here in my area of the country, that is the case.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes but we are all waiting anxiously to hear what Flip did with the TV remote and/or the Subway sandwich while you were typing on the forum...:



Loisiana said:


> Oh yeah, nothing but a big party here. Just like right now sitting on the couch watching a rerun of Oprah and eating a subway sandwich. Party on! ROFL


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> yes but we are all waiting anxiously to hear what Flip did with the TV remote and/or the Subway sandwich while you were typing on the forum...:


hey I ain't a fool, Flip is in the backyard!


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Oh yeah, nothing but a big party here. Just like right now sitting on the couch watching a rerun of Oprah and eating a subway sandwich. Party on! ROFL


Well I am sitting in a motel room and Titan is fast a sleep dreaming of glory.. or maybe chasing something..
I get to go to a dog show tomorrow...arty2::banana::jamming:..
And the next and the next.. long live obedience!


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Titan1....Show em how its done! Have fun and let us know how you do.


----------



## roxanness (May 29, 2009)

I began obedience with my current dog when he was quite young and when he was old enough I added agility training to his schedule. I love competing in agility because it's fun for me and it's fun for my dog and I firmly believe that his obedience background has made the agility training all the more successful. I do compete in obedience, but it's never as much fun and I attribute it to the fact that the stewards, ring crew etc. are usually rather abrupt, rude and condescending. I remember the first time I showed my dog in Novice A, I was so excited to actually be competing and I was looking forward to a really nice day. Well, that nice day started with being snapped at by the secretary when I asked where I should check-in. It got worse from there and it just seemed as if everyone involved in the show was not welcoming or congenial. They made me feel stupid for not knowing the check in rules, for not knowing the correct line-up for the long sits and downs, etc. If I weren't so ****** determined, I would have given up obedience in Novice.

We're now competing in Utility and the sad news is that with the exception of two or three other obedience shows I have seen the same bad attitudes exhibited time and time again. It has been the topic of discussion at our dog club many times and since we will be hosting an AKC obedience trial next year we have mandated that we will make sure that our show does not follow suit. We intend to have a hospitality table staffed with volunteers who know how to smile while they assist the competitors, scoring table attendants who are not crabby, a show secretary who actually enjoys their position and a general ambiance of respect for the competition and each other.

Obedience will never be a giggle-fest, but it can be fun and unless we all start thinking of it as a sport and the absolute best foundation training for any type of work you want to do with your dog not some sort of medieval torture it will continue to wane and that won't be good for anyone.

I'll let you guys know how it goes!


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Titan1 said:


> Well I am sitting in a motel room and Titan is fast a sleep dreaming of glory.. or maybe chasing something..
> I get to go to a dog show tomorrow...arty2::banana::jamming:..
> And the next and the next.. long live obedience!


How about the next after that? I am showing this weekend, then next I have a private, then I show the next weekend, then I have a private, then I show the weekend after that.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

you go girl! Will be cheering for you!



Titan1 said:


> Well I am sitting in a motel room and Titan is fast a sleep dreaming of glory.. or maybe chasing something..
> I get to go to a dog show tomorrow...arty2::banana::jamming:..
> And the next and the next.. long live obedience!


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's great to see a club trying to change some of the problems that we're seeing in obedience in some areas. 
I've seen some of what you're talking about, and I"ve seen the opposite, too, where the clubs bend over backward to make you feel comfortable and welcome.




roxanness said:


> I began obedience with my current dog when he was quite young and when he was old enough I added agility training to his schedule. I love competing in agility because it's fun for me and it's fun for my dog and I firmly believe that his obedience background has made the agility training all the more successful. I do compete in obedience, but it's never as much fun and I attribute it to the fact that the stewards, ring crew etc. are usually rather abrupt, rude and condescending. I remember the first time I showed my dog in Novice A, I was so excited to actually be competing and I was looking forward to a really nice day. Well, that nice day started with being snapped at by the secretary when I asked where I should check-in. It got worse from there and it just seemed as if everyone involved in the show was not welcoming or congenial. They made me feel stupid for not knowing the check in rules, for not knowing the correct line-up for the long sits and downs, etc. If I weren't so ****** determined, I would have given up obedience in Novice.
> 
> We're now competing in Utility and the sad news is that with the exception of two or three other obedience shows I have seen the same bad attitudes exhibited time and time again. It has been the topic of discussion at our dog club many times and since we will be hosting an AKC obedience trial next year we have mandated that we will make sure that our show does not follow suit. We intend to have a hospitality table staffed with volunteers who know how to smile while they assist the competitors, scoring table attendants who are not crabby, a show secretary who actually enjoys their position and a general ambiance of respect for the competition and each other.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I think the economy has impacted dog shows, in general, but I also agree that the trend for less obedience entries started long before that. I noticed it before Rally came into existence when obedience people started to switch to agility... for me that was about 10 years ago. At the time, I believed that it was because agility was more exciting for dogs and handlers... Many of the OTCH/UDX competitors up here made the switch. When I started in Novice A 20 years ago, there were 3 obedience clubs in this area, plus an independent obedience trainer. Now, there is only one obedience club left standing. However, there are many "training" centers, but quite frankly many of the trainers are not competitors or competitive if they do compete. When I competed in Utility A about 10 or more years ago, there were usually only 3 or 4 entries depending on weather conditions. But with the same dog in Open A, I frequently competed against more than 20 dogs. I think that being a member of an obedience training club helped to foster the desire to show...


----------



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I've been thinking about this more....
- It's hard to get people to appreciate and be impressed by some of the obedience behaviors...it's way easier for people to be impressed with (and then reinforce more appropriately) "cool" stuff like going over or under or through an obstacle...no matter how poor or slow or silly the obstacle performance. A nice fast down is not as appreciated as it should be by beginners. When my students are looking at what classes to do next, most gravitate to agility.... and often they say it's because their dog likes it better. I gently add in that its more likely that -we- get more impressed and reinforce better and that if we were as good with our reinforcement in other contexts....they would like other things just as much.
- Pieces of the culture...and this could well be local. A few months ago, I was at some other type of event and met up with someone who does competition obedience in a different part of the state..I asked her for referrals with instructors...and she pointed me to someone a few hours away. And later on in the conversation I was told that other exhibitors would be nicer to me if I was this person's student than if I was not training under someone. It may or may not be true.... but it was not very encouraging to hear that....and as I'm already paranoid about doing a good job and being proficient.... the last thing I need to worry about are those variables!

And a piece is.... What do we do about the decline of entries and interest and enthusiasm?
- I work with 4H kids at a local and state level. Many of the kids really really don't like obedience. I'm jokingly known for my obedience love. A few of the kids come up after events and whisper things like, "I really do like obedience sometimes!" Most of the kids don't end up doing AKC....but a few are. A few are getting more interest. Many are learning to appreciate and love the great little behavior pieces.
- I encourage my students to consider obedience as a next option, esp if the owner is focused on details and precision. I have a glen immal (spelled wrong?) in class that would be GREAT....as well as the coolest little mix breed. But....harder to get people interest.
- My youngest dog, I got specifically for obedience. That was my primary goal with him. We've not done nearly as much as I had expected by this point in his life, however, I do feel he has a good foundation and I don't feel like I've messed anything up.
- Leading to that....with more experience with him...I'll feel better about helping students in obedience. At this point I'm sometimes tempted to refer them to someone with more experience.... yet.... I'm not comfortable with recommendations these people will receive. I don't want my human students to be feeling conflict about advice they receive or to have a bad time....it already happened once this year and I feel awful about it -still-. I have some students who come to me, even from further away, because of how I train. I make it very clear that I don't have a lot of experience in competition obedience at this point...that I love it and am training to fluency.... but am lacking in ring experience. 
- I'm part of an (almost official) training club dedicated to training that I'm comfortable with. Hopefully our members will do well and continue to have interest in sports.
- We've talked about hosting CDSP and other types of trials (.... won't be able to AKC/UKC though).
- I'm supporting and trying to help bring good seminar experiences to the area (....and region....and part of the world) that focus on good training for competition obedience and differently than what's often taught. We're 2/3 way through a 9 day event right now.

What else could I be doing, should I be doing? and what are others doing to help change this?


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I once read an article in a dog magazine, maybe the GRN that agility trials were the tailgating party of the dog sport world! HMMMM, maybe I can link to that article if I can find it.

I get the same impression that Red Dogs gets about obedience, people being friendly really depends on who you train with. Luckily by the time I trialed with Selli I knew many people through agility and the fact that Selli has many close relatives that do obedience trials so I could use that association. 

I really commend my club (the Ann Arbor Dog Training Club) on their work to make newbes feel comfortable and the trial secretaries are some of the nicest people I know and do everything they can to help!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I really commend my club (the Ann Arbor Dog Training Club) on their work to make newbes feel comfortable and the trial secretaries are some of the nicest people I know and do everything they can to help!


^^^ Seconds.  And not just because I go there and like all the people there<:

I did want to say that I never experienced anything BAD from stewards and judges. Even when I was in Novice A and making the SAME mistakes over and over in our first show - I got pulled over by the judge TWICE for chewing gum, the first time when we did the run through and then when I went back in for sits/downs. *laughs* I forgot I had gum in my mouth both times. The judge could have thrown me OUT, but because I was Novice A was quite a bit more lenient and nice about it. I wanted to die. <- the gum chewing was something I would do when doing riding competitions, because it settled my nerves somehow. 

And other shows I've really had a lot of good experiences with the judges and the stewards and even the other people trialing. If you are in novice A, EVERYONE is doing what they can to settle you down and make the experience positive. 

There are cliques... but that's the same anywhere (I used to show my horse in equitation - ). The nice thing (that I feel, maybe it's different for other people), but I train at two clubs regularly and even do fun matches at two _other_ clubs when I can (there is a third club I'd go to if I could but they only do fun matches during the day), and there isn't a lot of obnoxiousness between the clubs. People are friendly if you are friendly. And training at multiple clubs (like I do) isn't seen as some kind of betrayal or going off the reservation. And the instructors at both clubs I go to will even recommend their students catch up at the other club between sessions or for extra practice. It's nice. 

Where I trained at 10 years ago - the only time we trained at other places was when our instructor shut down or wasn't offering classes. And then we had a chip on shoulders because of everything she'd say about the other clubs and their training methods. People like that create backbiting and division.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I don't know. All I know is that I feel lonesome sometimes when I go to run throughs and there is no one even close to my age there. But I like obedience. I like the challenge of training to a high and precise level. I appreciate a dog and trainer that can do that. 

I think it is hard to get young blood in the sport because of agility. Agility is more fun, and that is where the younger folk flock. I keep getting prodded in that direction for that reason--and I do hope to compete in agility at some point. But I like obedience too.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

roxanness said:


> Obedience will never be a giggle-fest,



Oh contrare! You have not seen Oriana and I in the ring together!! :bowl:


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I have to admit I have NOMINAL obedience experience. I have shown rally at two shows. The first one was just rally, one ring. Obedience had been the day before and it was in conjunction with an agility trial. The people were AWESOME, but it was very laid back. 

The next one was hosted by our Golden Retriever club. Held at the facility where I train. It was PACKED. It was a golden specialty too. I knew several people there, but I did find it hard to find out information from the people in the know. I got some short responses. I enjoy training obedience, but it is not fun to sit at all day and watch. I am not sure how far I will go in obedience, but Barb says all the way . 

We have the same not so nice people in agility too. I just choose to avoid them. There is more commeraderie from the folks outside the ring. People cheer, laugh at mistakes, and commiserate when things go completely wrong. It is more enjoyable to watch if you have to stay all day. 

I do know even in agility gas prices have paid their toll. People want to go to good venues, with good judges, so some trials fill fast others, don't. The novice division is usually small, but the last trial I attended they had close to 80 excellent dogs. Usually people move out of novice pretty quickly too.


----------



## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I have often wished that I did not have a day job or was retired. It seems that almost every very successful obedience trainer in our area meets that description. All of the available training times are during the day....around here novicea/opena vary from year to year...some years have loads of new people ready to compete, others, not so many. Also, some trials fill quickly, others, not so much. As a relative newby to the sport, I thin that it is the foundation of so much else that you can do with your dog. However, I really appreciate obedience in its own right.


----------



## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I discussed this topic last night with my husband...poor dog show husband : )

He had a few ideas...1) as mentioned, one is that obedience is not seen as fun compared to agility and rally is seen as a better starting point for new people/new dogs 2) training classes aren't what they used to be. You used to take a couple of 8 week classes and then be able to go into the ring at the novice level. Now Petsmart and the like focus on sit for ten weeks. 3) He thinks- and I agree that the excessively long time that it takes before a trainer will "let" a student enter Novice obedience is part of the downfall. Around here, it's about two years. Um. Okay. What's the worst that's going to happen? Dog fails? ............Dog didn't bite anyone? Student didn't die? Let 'em do it. No agility trainer around here takes 2 years to get a dog/handler team ready with weekly classes or lessons- hence another attraction to agility. Some people just want to show their dog and Q! Or just show their dog! 4) The insistence by trainers right now on heads up heeling. Most things in obedience have practical application (ie, seek back in field work, scent discrimination, heel offleash, etc). But the insistence right now that dogs heel with their heads up is really questionable. I've heard people mention that if the dog has it's head up and on the owner, it is not paying attention to anything else...maybe. But where is the real life application? In the field, for example, that is absolutely verboten to heel like that- your dog will one, fall on its face and 2) miss birds. And why are we telling new people to spend a year or two to develop a heads up heeling style when its not in the regs/has no real life application?


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Also the formality and somewhat rigidity of obedience is a downer to newbies. Depending on who you train with...I understand some people will spend lessons on just footwork. Unless you are competitive, it will be a yawn fest for you and you will not want to continue.


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

See now I believe part of it is the lack of patience, and commitment in people these days. So many people want something, and they want it now without putting in their daily work to train the dog to the level they need before showing, and I am not just talking about high scores. Obedience isn't something you should rush into, it is something that takes time, and commitment. I have seen to many dogs, and not just in Novice A go into the ring, and have no idea what they were doing. This happens with all breeds too, not just the non traditional ones. Some dogs can be difficult, but you can also tell when the owner is completely clueless as to how things are at a show. It is sad really, cuz more than likely in many cases the whole show scene and rules were not explained. Going to pet classes doesn't work for someone that is interested in showing, because like mentioned above they spend way to much time on things like sitting ect. Then the poor people go into the ring, do poorly, and walk out very discouraged We are lucky here in MN, as we have lots of good places to train, not just your pet dog classes like at Petsmart ect. Unfortunately many of the classes are in the metro areas, and lots of people don't want to drive an hour to get to them. 

Another thing I have noticed is that when I tell people how much I spend to enter a class $24-$27 their jaw drops! I was surprised how much a dog show costs too when I first started. I figured it would cost about the same as your everyday saddle club horse show...Nope!! I now understand why it is more expensive, but it does really hurt the pocketbook.

As far as style, I believe that is all up to the person training the dog. I teach my dogs to cue off my shoulders, and to trust that I will not run them into a wall ect. When we do field, tracking, or agility, they work in a style that is required to that sport. I take a long time before I show, because that is what I prefer, though I know many people prefer not to. I will be finally bringing my soon to turn 3 year old bitch out to show in obedience this June. I do want titles on my dogs, AND high scores so I spend lots of time training them on stuff before I bring them out to show, because for me it is all about the training, which developes into a strong bond.

I sure wish obedience had more publicity though!


----------



## glnbrgold (May 26, 2011)

I don't think obedience is a dying sport, just not as popular as it once was. Years ago... back in the dark ages of dog shows, obedience and tracking were the only performance events there were. I grew up going to dog shows and did some obedience (with a beagle no less) primarily because it was my only choice. Then the AKC added Hunting tests, then agilty, then rally and I don't even know what else. It gets really hard to do it all and competion obedience with it's rigid structure and emphasis on perfection has lost out to free flowing agility. 

I still train in obedience but admit it is not my favorite. However, the older I get the harder it becomes to run that agility course and remember to cue my dog correctly. There are a lot of older women out doing agility and I suspect that several of them may gravitate back to obedience once agility becomes too physically difficult.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

some excellent thoughts and ideas on this thread, thanks everyone, for participating.


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

glnbrgold said:


> I don't think obedience is a dying sport, just not as popular as it once was. Years ago... back in the dark ages of dog shows, obedience and tracking were the only performance events there were. I grew up going to dog shows and did some obedience (with a beagle no less) primarily because it was my only choice. Then the AKC added Hunting tests, then agilty, then rally and I don't even know what else. It gets really hard to do it all and competion obedience with it's rigid structure and emphasis on perfection has lost out to free flowing agility.


UGH!! It is VERY hard to do multiple events!!! That is why I had to make a choice on which one I wanted to do, just couldn't do it all. I ended up choosing obedience because I have met so many wondeful people in it


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I limit myself (and I only have 1 dog in training!) to 2 sports at a time. I do work full time, and like most people financial resources are not unlimited either. First it was obedience and breed, when he got his CH, it became obedience and field, when he got his UDX it became field and agility. Oh I don't count dock diving, because we don't *train* for that and are lucky to find 3-4 events per year. Next up is tracking....


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> But the insistence right now that dogs heel with their heads up is really questionable. I've heard people mention that if the dog has it's head up and on the owner, it is not paying attention to anything else...maybe. But where is the real life application? In the field, for example, that is absolutely verboten to heel like that- your dog will one, fall on its face and 2) miss birds. And why are we telling new people to spend a year or two to develop a heads up heeling style when its not in the regs/has no real life application?


I know that heeling with focus is ideal and one of the things that we worked on in all of the early novice classes... but really, that's not why we wait 2 years mininum before trialing. 

You are really waiting for that dog to settle down and be steadier before going into the ring. It's the opposite of agility when while you want control you want a dog who is UP and super excited and hyped up and from what I've seen most agility trainers need to run to keep up with their dogs. 

I always laugh when I peek over at or listen to the dogs on the other side of the curtain where I train (agility is on one side, obedience is on the other side). I mean you will have dogs ZOOMING over the course and BANGING over obstacles and barking the entire time. 



> Another thing I have noticed is that when I tell people how much I spend to enter a class $24-$27 their jaw drops! I was surprised how much a dog show costs too when I first started. I figured it would cost about the same as your everyday saddle club horse show...Nope!! I now understand why it is more expensive, but it does really hurt the pocketbook.


I think this depends.... 

Because my barn took my horse up to shows, I paid $$ for gas. Then there was the stall rental, especially if we did a two day show. It could be anywhere between $120-250 total.  Dog show entry fees are cheap<:


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> UGH!! It is VERY hard to do multiple events!!! That is why I had to make a choice on which one I wanted to do, just couldn't do it all. I ended up choosing obedience because I have met so many wondeful people in it


I completely agree!! I have 3 dogs who train in 2-3 sports each and really non-cooperating weather these past 8 months; so I adjust expectations and prioritize;

I only have 1 dog who does field, but if I have an opportunity to work field with a group other plans often fall by the wayside. But, Faelan is somewhat confused on fronting with a dumbbell now; I am sure he will relearn but frankly I am looking at the possibility of a 5 point hit for both fronts with a dumbbell and so may need to postpone the CDX until he figures it out. He also (and this is wicked cute but needs stabilizing) just started doing the head as high as possible to see the dumbbell when tossed - this is a carryover from field training but again, may result in a delay in showing him in Open since a break is a real possibility since his front feet actually lifted this past Wed in class. He is entered in a show but I have not yet decided if he will be showing. 

My obedience coach is starting to mention the idea that OTCH/MACH dogs are something special but honestly I don't know that financially that is where my money should go.
Between field training taking a large chunk out of training time, my Towhee and Casey are not getting some of the attention needed for obedience work. So their entries are ... delayed. All these delays are not special to me, so I am sure that is part of the reason for lowered entries.

And, my King won a lot. I have a lot of prizes and trophies for my Munch. Now, I rarely get a momento for winning or placing, Small in the sceme of things perhaps, but I like getting trophies - rarely are they offered any more.


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think they should allow you to skip Novice and Open like they do with hunt tests. You would just have to qualify two more times than the traditional way. Just a thought. I don't know if that would increase the participation though.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think obedience is the dog sport equivalency to gymnastics. Both are sports scored based on the idea of perfection. A cooked sit is like a gymnast's unpointed toe. It's considered a more "serious" sport. Your teammates will be at the meets to cheer you on but you'll never see actual cheerleaders out there with their pom-poms!

Gymnastics is also not like other sports in the amount of training required. It's not like signing up for little league, going to a couple of practices, and then going to games. Gymnasts usually spend several years in recreational classes learning basic skills before they ever start competing.

Gymnasts spend their entire childhood/teen years training daily yet most will never make it to the Elite level. Actually in the past 12 years I think the state of Louisiana has only seen one of its gymnasts make it to the Elite level. Compare the number of girls out there competing in gymnastics that make it to that level versus the number of dogs in obedience trials that earn an OTCH and the OTCH ratio starts looking pretty good!

Yet the gymnastics community is thriving! Years of training, high levels of perfection expected, very few making it very far, repeated success by a few at the top while all the others remain in the shadows, but the high interest level continues nationwide.


----------



## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I've never understood the comments that obedience training isn't fun. My dogs and I have a blast training and showing in obedience! And also comments that there isn't enough interaction between dog and handler. How many other dog sports allow you to pet your dog during the middle of its run? And to me the silent communication that I have with my dogs during an exercise is much greater than any verbal communication I could give. We love obedience. It's all a big party for us! arty2::artydude


THANK YOU for saying this. It seems that nobody thinks a dog or human finds obedience FUN! My dogs compete to see who gets their turn to work with me! They love training (i.e. playing!) If you make it a game, of course they will like it! I LOVE obedience too...and don't get how people succeed at other dog sports without it.


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom said:


> THANK YOU for saying this. It seems that nobody thinks a dog or human finds obedience FUN!


They obviously never watched Titan in the ring.. He is having a PARTY on the go outs! :greenboun:greenboun:greenboun...


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh Tito used to think obedience was fun....until he discovered some of the other dog sports...
Now I have no doubt that's my fault. But he thinks chasing a bird thru weeds, and having a swim for himself, is a lot more fun than running a few feet to get a dumbbell. 
I do like obedience, don't get me wrong. I am just not a good enough trainer to keep it real exciting for him now that he's discovered field and agility.


----------

