# Marking skills ...



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I've been told they get better with age and experience.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Marking ability (marking and memory) is for the most part a heritable trait. You can enhance this ability through training and experience but training will not turn a poor marker into a good one. 

Great markers are born, not made.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think it is both. Of course at the elite levels there are good markers (otherwise they wouldn't be there) and incredible markers. Personally I think good marking equals good memory. If they didn't have good memory they couldn't mark well (even on singles) so memory = marking.
HOWEVER -- how many dogs with a lot of desire have are truly poor markers? Not many. 
A dog with inherent desire makes itself a good marker so it can get the bird faster.
Training/repetition fine tunes this skill. The trainer wills it but the dog wants it.
Anyone who has trained a puppy on marks from day one knows that a puppy with a lot of natural desire just naturally gets better with consistent training on marks.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Geeze I sound like I'm channeling Yoda on that post.


----------



## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I don't know the answer to the question but I did think of some things that impede marking (from experience) like poor attwntion and movement at the line. I think it helps to take your time setting up, have the dog looking in the right direction, sitting still, not creeping, etc. I think there are drills to decrease head swing and not let them go unless they're sitting still. You probably already do these but I just remember Boomer marking better when paying attention.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think they are basically inherited, but then you can improve on what's already there. There are drills for improving marking skills.
Sometimes, too, I think "poor marking skills" is really a hesitancy to go through some hazards.
Also, my trainer says that dogs who are upland hunting for the first few times will appear to temporarily lose their marking skills when taken back to a hunt test practice type scenario. The desire to track down live birds in the brush is so strong that they are basically ignoring the dead fall. I know this because Tito has always been a good marker, and when we introduced him to upland he seemed to totally lose any ability to mark!!! All he did was head for the tallest grass around and look for live birds, sheesh.
Just curious, why do you ask?


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I think they are basically inherited, but then you can improve on what's already there. There are drills for improving marking skills.
> Sometimes, too, I think "poor marking skills" is really a hesitancy to go through some hazards.
> Also, my trainer says that dogs who are upland hunting for the first few times will appear to temporarily lose their marking skills when taken back to a hunt test practice type scenario. The desire to track down live birds in the brush is so strong that they are basically ignoring the dead fall. I know this because Tito has always been a good marker, and when we introduced him to upland he seemed to totally lose any ability to mark!!! All he did was head for the tallest grass around and look for live birds, sheesh.
> Just curious, why do you ask?


I train with some goldens, chessies and labs who are incredible markers - they never seem to miss. Yes, they have other issues but nailing their mark is not among them.

I would consider my Faelan to be a 'good' marker, but he'll get to the AOF and rarely step on the bird/bumper - his hunt is not usually big or wide, but there is usually at least a short hunt, sometimes a longer one. So given I am working and training with excellent markers, I was wondering if the skills can be developed through training - his perseverance has and is developing very nicely, so he won't come back (unless called in) without the bird. I have no doubt Faelan will be an excellent handling dog, and he has plenty of drive but I sometimes wonder about the marking.

And what exactly is a good to excellent marker - is it nailing the marks or is it getting to the area of the fall?


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I think that the dog's recognizing the *depth* of fall is very important. Some dogs will take a line very well, but then keep on truckin' if they do not step on the bird on that line. The good marker recognizes that area of fall and stops to hunt when they have driven deep enough, and then sometimes steps on the bird or has a tight, controlled hunt. To me as a judge, either indicates that the dog has marked the bird.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I saw a young golden at the last JH test run RIGHT to the fall, both falls, both days. She knew *exactly* where it was. To me, that is an excellent marker! Especially when you compared her to some of the other dogs.
Have you seen Carol Cassity's book, I think it's called, "Building a Retriever, Drills and more" ? There are some good marking drills in there.


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

The dog that can _consistently_ front-foot marks is obviously a good marker--like Anney, I also want to see if they can do that on a memory bird in a multiple when other retrieves have occured to distract the dog and time has been a factor. Much of that is inborn, and then enhanced through effective training. Seeing the dog lock onto that bird and not let anything divert its attention is impressive. That is why good bird placement in the part of judges is so important in a test. Utilising factors which will cause a dog to be pushed or pulled away from that mark if they give in to them can really show that dog that knows where the bird is and will not let anything prevent it from getting it.
Here's what the CKC rulebook (which was based on the AKC rulebook) has to say about what constitutes marking and how to evaluate it:​ 
*15.1 Marking*
15.1.1 Marking, or memory of falls, is of paramount importance. However, this does not imply that dogs which excel in marking shall not be scored lower, even to the extent of not receiving a qualifying score, for deficiencies in, or a lack of the other required abilities.
15.1.2 Ability to mark does not necessarily imply pin-pointing the fall. A dog that misses the fall on the first cast but recognizes the depth of the area of the fall, stays in it, then quickly and systematically hunts it out has done both a creditable and an intelligent job of marking.
15.1.3 Even with marked birds, a handler may be able to render great assistance to the dog by giving it a line in the direction of the fall. However, there is nothing he or she can do, short of handling, to aid the dog in recognizing the depth of the fall.
15.1.4 Often a dog gives definite indication of marking ability at or after delivery of a first bird, by aligning itself toward, or by looking eagerly in the exact direction of an unretrieved fall; at times, even leaving at once or leaving on command, but without benefit of a precise line to the fall given to it by the handler. There is no invariable method by which marking can be evaluated.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

That is exactly what I am talking about. I train with several retrievers who run precisely to their mark, they know *exactly* where it is – hills, terrain, ditches, cover etc don't seem to change their line; I was starting to wonder if this exact marking was the norm or the exception. 

Generally speaking my Faelan is beautifully mannered heeling to and while on the line and watches the fall quietly and attentively, he will lock on to the fall area until released, then he explodes into action to the general area and sometimes he nails it but usually hunts a bit – but; he does hunt it up, he retrieves it and he races directly back to me with it. He will swing to heel position holding the bird or bumper steadily until told to give, while lining up and looking out towards the field if my knee is bent. He has not really begun his doubles work yet.

I will start the drills in Carol Cassity's workbook, and try not to compare my Faelan to the phenomenal markers in my training group J 

Thank you all for your responses – it really has helped to settle my mind.


----------



## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I think you know good marking when you see it. There are a few dogs I know, one specifically that was line bred on Duncan, who is an amazing marker. She naturally takes a nice line and simply knows where the bird it. Throw a ditch, pond, or brush in the way, it does not matter. She was like this as a pup even with little formal training... I have also seen other dogs who despite of a less than straight line always seem to know where the bird is... And everything in between.

If course natural talent can always be enhanced, but I do agree, good markers are born, not made...


----------



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

In my more than 30 years of training retrievers, much of which was for competition where marking is of paramount importance, I've come to view *marking abilities* this way. Marking is an act of vision & memory. Vision would include not only clarity of vision, but also depth perception. 

Memory is a part of any mark, even a single. The dog must remember his perception of the spot until he reaches it in order to be accurate. The degree of memory involved expands exponentially during multiple marks, and then even more according to relative distances on each mark.

These traits are inborn. They are enhanced by another inborn trait, and that is prey drive. It's easier to remember something you want badly enough. All those traits are enhanced further by training and experience. I wish there were a simpler answer, but such is life!

EvanG


----------

