# What is your dogs Coefficient of Inbreeding



## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Coefficient of Inbreeding = CIO

If you put details of mating into k9data, bring up the pedigree, hit, go into genetic information and that either will already of the CIO ir will do so when requested in two weeks time-ish!

We have some good breeders out there that must know about CIO to do breed.....Im learning fast! Its to do with genetic inbreeding and tells you what is too close and what is ok...sort of.

I will put more links up for those that are interested. :bowl::bowl::bowl::bowl:


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Please can we keep this to general and not move to 'breeding' as it should be of interest to everyone that owns a golden


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

TRACE
10-generation COI	13.27%
12-generation COI	15.47%
Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:
MBIS MBISS Am/Can/Braz CH. Eirene's This One's For You SDHF, OS	3.55%
Am CH. Faera's Future Classic OS	2.95%
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF	1.82%
Am. CH Goldwing True Bear OS SDHF	0.96%
BISS Am./Can. CH Gold-Rush's Great Teddy Bear OS SDHF	0.73%



LIBERTY
10-generation COI	13.37%
12-generation COI	14.60%
Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:
Am/Can CH. Freedom's Celebration OS	2.14%
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF	1.73%
Am CH Laurell's Goin' Great Guns OS SDHF	1.69%
Can. Ch. Brookshire's Jessica Tandy CD Can SDHF Am Can OD	1.68%
Am. CH. Autumn Lodge's Mister Zap CD ** OS	0.92%


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

*Selka's:
10-generation COI**7.12%

**12-generation COI**8.20%**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Am Can Ch Clark's Easter Bonnet UD WCX Can CDX WC (OD)3.27%Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF1.36%Am.CH. Sir Duncan Of Woodbury OS0.75%CH Little Joe Of Tigathoe *** OS0.25%Autumn Lodge's L'Il Indian0.24%


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

*Gunner's:

10-generation COI**4.23%**12-generation COI**5.12%**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF1.46%Bainin of Caernac CD*** OS0.44%Am.CH. Sir Duncan Of Woodbury OS0.40%Autumn Lodge's L'Il Indian0.26%Am. CH. Autumn Lodge's Mister Zap CD ** OS0.21%


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Max:*10-generation COI**0.40%**12-generation COI**0.60%**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Eng. FT. CH. Musicmaker of Yeo0.07%Eng. Dual CH. Stubblesdown Golden Lass0.06%Eng. CH. Masterpiece of Yeo0.06%Am. CH. Indian Knoll's Roc-Cloud UD OS OBHF0.05%Stubblesdown Riot0.04%
I don't even remember some of these names!

I need to read up on COI. Seems Max's was very high. This was back in the 80's.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

How do you figure this out?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I got it off k9data.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I found one on one dog, but not other.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I am FAR from understanding all the ramifications of COI. However, as has been discussed here before, it is much more than simply low COI is better than high. In fact, there was a thread not long ago about a litter with COI of higher than 30 (if I'm remembering right) and, due to the dogs involved and their hx, some of our very knowledgeable GRF'ers thoughts were very positive. Now, I'm going to look for the thread.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Here is the thread I was referencing http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=73734&highlight=high+COI Tahnee has some very informative posts as does Brookshire's owner (see post 33).


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Found both, one dog, -10 generation,5.32, 12 generation, 6.39, next dog, 10 generation, -9.92 , 12 generation, 10.84, so what exactly, makes this important?


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

goldensrbest said:


> How do you figure this out?


Read my first post on it and that tells you how to do it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

There's more to COI than a number. For example, a COI of 15 where there are 5 dogs accounting for the percentage is different than a COI of 15 where one dog accounts for the whole thing.
Also, it matters how far up the pedigree the linebreeding happened. Having 2 great, great grandfathers the same isn't the same thing as having 2 grandparents that are the same. 
If you have dogs from certain well-known lines, I think you're going to see COIs in the 12-15 range, or higher, all the time. Also using Tito as an example, two of his grandfathers are Faera dogs, but not the same one. They have common ancestors 2 generations up, however. 
In any case it's an interesting topic but really doesn't mean anything useful to the typical dog owner, IMO.

here's Tito's:

*10generation COI**14.21%**12generation COI**15.74%*
*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Am-Can Ch Tempo's Schoolhouse Rock Can SDHF3.76%BISS BIS Am Can CH Amberac's Asterling Aruba OD SDHF1.99%Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF1.50%Am./Can. CH. Asterling's Wild Blue Yonder OS SDHF1.25%Halltree Dixie's Jubilee CD0.85%


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I use COI as a guideline, but I also use Genetic Influence. I used to have to do the GI calculation by hand (learned how at a dog breeding and genetics seminar many years ago!) but now have a program that calculates GI for me. Unfortunately that program is now being held hostage on my old PC 

Genetic Influence looks at both the sire and dam's side of the pedigree, and calculates the influence each dog in the pedigree theoretically supplies. For example, the sire in an outcrossed pedigree will contribute 50% of the genetic influence, as will the dam. Since few pedigrees are that outcrossed, the GI can sometimes surprise you in terms of who the influential dogs in a pedigree are. I remember doing one pedigree where the most inflluential dog was one who appeared 5 generations back but many many many times.

When I was working with my foundation dogs, I liked to get a GI of 37.5% on the dog I was trying to build upon-that often happened with a Brackett type breeding. 

An explanation of Genetic Influence and COI can be found here

http://www.canine-genetics.com/relation.htm

My program calculates both GI and COI (based on Wright) for a maximum of 12 generations. Both are only tools and really can't substitute for knowledge of the pedigree and the dogs in the pedigree.

One of the first things I am going to do when I get a job is to have a computer whiz take that program off my old PC and put it onto my laptop!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Geez Linda, that GI sounds fascinating!! I wish you had the program, I'd love to run it on a few dogs....


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## THE HONEY WOLVES (Jun 9, 2007)

*10-generation COI**8.44%**12-generation COI**9.94%*


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## THE HONEY WOLVES (Jun 9, 2007)

Inbreeding does not necessarily create a problem - the problem occurs if there are adverse genetic attributes which are reinforced in a bad gene pool. The adverse genes become more prominent as the gene pool decreases - (via inbreeding)-

For example - if I am breeding for a red coat and the only red coat offspring that I have to work with also have hip displasia, bad hearing or other defect then if I utilize those limited offspring the likely most of their offspring will also carry the adverse genes - 

I had a biologist explain this to me after I asked why inbreeding causes mutations.

Inbred mice are utilized for various biological research. After multiple generations of inbreeding mice the offspring eventually become genetically identical "identical twins, clones etc" because they all have the same reinforced gene pool and after multiple generations there is no genetic differentiation. Fascinating stuff


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Debles said:


> *Selka's:*
> *10-generation COI**7.12%*
> 
> *12-generation COI**8.20%**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
> Am Can Ch Clark's Easter Bonnet UD WCX Can CDX WC (OD)3.27%Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF1.36%Am.CH. Sir Duncan Of Woodbury OS0.75%CH Little Joe Of Tigathoe *** OS0.25%Autumn Lodge's L'Il Indian0.24%


When I saw Bonnie at the top of the list I knew Selka must have a lot of Sunfire in him. Just looked up the k9data page to verify!

Flip's COI: *10-generation COI**3.96%**12-generation COI**4.46%*
*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Sunfire's Kinetic Cascade UD MH WCX Can UD WCX OD0.90%AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS0.79%Poika of Handjem OS0.52%Shenandoah of Stilrovin CD *** OD0.37%FC AFC Northbreak Kinike Sir Jim OS FDHF0.24%


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Faelan (Windrush Amber Sunrise's Zachane)

*10-generation COI** 2.65% 
**12-generation COI **3.42%*

*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
AFC Wild Fire of Riverview CDX WCX OS FDHF0.36%
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF0.35%
Am Can Ch Clark's Easter Bonnet UD WCX Can CDX WC (OD)0.31%
Poika of Handjem OS0.28%
Sunfire's Kinetic Cascade UD MH WCX Can UD WCX OD0.23%


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Towhee (Sunfire's Desert Towhee)

*10-generation COI **6.30%
**12-generation COI **6.93%

**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Sunfire's Kinetic Cascade UD MH WCX Can UD WCX OD1.15%
AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS0.84%
Am./Can. CH. Clark Sunfire's Bullseye JH CDX WCX; Can. CDX WCI (OS)0.84%
FC-AFC Sunfire's XX Buckshot OS0.82%
Poika of Handjem OS0.65%


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

King (Amber Sunrise King UD)

*10-generation COI **1.02%** 
12-generation COI** 1.33%**

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Am. CH. Indian Knoll's Roc-Cloud UD OS OBHF 0.20%
FC-AFC Misty's Sungold Lad CDX OS FDHF 0.20%
Sherrydan Tag * OS 0.16%
Sun Dance's Flare OD 0.12%
Am. CH. Golden Knoll's Shur Shot CD OS SDHF 0.05%

Rowdy and Casey do not have COIs calculated.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Geez Linda, that GI sounds fascinating!! I wish you had the program, I'd love to run it on a few dogs....


I love to do that! I had thousands of dogs in my pedigree base and on my dogs. could do a 12 generation pedigree with no problem. Entering that many dogs was very time consuming though, and since it was for my own purposes only, I tended not to enter titles on all of the dogs.

I have got to get it transferred to my new computer.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Angel's COI is 7.73 at 10 generations and 8.62 at 12 generations.

FC AFC Tigathoe's Kiowa II OS FDHF 1.88%
AFC Holway Barty OS 1.72%
AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS 1.66%
NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton OS/FDHF 0.60%
FC Windbreakers Razzmatazz OD 0.25%


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## marieb (Mar 24, 2008)

Maddie's COI:

*10-generation COI**11.00%**
12-generation COI**12.36%**
Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
BISS Am. Ch. Honor's Let's Go To The Hop SDHF OS1.77%
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF1.68%
BISS BIS Am Can CH Amberac's Asterling Aruba OD SDHF1.41%
Am CH Signature's Sound Barrier OS1.20%
BIS Am. CH Gold Coast Here Comes The Sun CD OS SDHF0.93%


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

For Mac:

10-generation COI	7.17%
12-generation COI	8.05%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

CH Toasty's Snickers OD SDHF	1.80%
Am-Can Ch. Malagold Storm Warning OS, SDHF	1.61%
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF	0.97%
Am. CH. Autumn Lodge's Mister Zap CD ** OS	0.34%
Am Ch Libra Malagold Clover OD	0.30%


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

It's always interesting to see how often Sammy (Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF) shows up on COI and GI calculations, especially considering he died in 1977! He was definitely a frequently used sire.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Tahnee GR said:


> It's always interesting to see how often Sammy (Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF) shows up on COI and GI calculations, especially considering he died in 1977! He was definitely a frequently used sire.


I was thinking the same thing too!

Out of everyone who has posted the names of the dogs involved in the COI thread, Sammy is listed in 8 out of 13 posts so far (if my count is correct).


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Here's my Creed (and Sammy!)

10-generation COI 9.17% 
12-generation COI 10.17% 


Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Am. CH Tangleloft Odds On Pebwin CD WC VC OS 3.99% 
Am. CH. Sunshine Hill's Nat'l Cowboy OS SDHF 0.94% 
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF 0.87% 
Am. CH Libra Lady Carioca CD OD 0.61% 
Am./Can./Bda. CH. Cummings' Gold-Rush Charlie OS, Am./Can. SDHF 0.53% 

and Bindi (notice where Sammy is in her COI!)

10-generation COI 3.03% 
12-generation COI 3.96% 


Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF 0.80% 
BISS Am./Can. CH Gold-Rush's Great Teddy Bear OS SDHF 0.50% 
Am. CH Libra Lady Carioca CD OD 0.30% 
BIS Am. CH Gold Coast Here Comes The Sun CD OS SDHF 0.30% 
Am. CH. Sunset's Happy Duke OS 0.25% 

and Trouble (no Sammy here)

10-generation COI 12.82% 
12-generation COI 13.38% 


Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Ch. Carlin's Holiday A Xmas Carol OS 3.35% 
Ch. Tupelo Tahnee Tuff Cookie 3.20% 
Am. CH. Libra Malagold Coriander OS SDHF 2.01% 
Ch. Jayba's Tahnee Kahlua N Cream OD 1.60% 
Am Ch Hunts Finnegan OS SDHF 0.34%


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

I kind of like this one Linda(and once again Sammy)

10-generation COI 6.99%
12-generation COI 8.05%
Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:
Ch. Carlin's Holiday A Xmas Carol OS 1.67%
Ch. Tupelo Tahnee Tuff Cookie 1.60%
Am. CH Libra Lady Carioca CD OD 0.99%
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF 0.65%
BISS Am./Can. CH Gold-Rush's Great Teddy Bear OS SDHF 0.40%



This one is kind of Interesting... Outcross Sire from American lines, Dam from overseas lines. All of the contributors for COI are from overseas lines. My little girl Quinn's COI

10 generation COI 0.09%
12 generation COI 0.23%

*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Can./Bermuda CH Nanno Chrys-Haefen Son Of Skye CD OS SDHF 0.04%
Eng. CH. Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria 0.04%
Can./Bda. CH, Skylon Lancelot SDHF 0.02%
Eng./Irish Ch. Cabus Cadet JW 0.02%
Eng. Ch. Sansue Camrose Phoenix 0.01%


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Doolin said:


> I kind of like this one Linda(and once again Sammy)
> 
> 10-generation COI 6.99%
> 12-generation COI 8.05%
> ...


LOL-yes, I like that one a lot  Sure brings those oldies but goodies up front, doesn't it?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks for posting the other thread Betty. I had missed it and it was quite informative!
Misty Morn's Sunset was quite popular in the past as a sire!
Since Funky Farquar is on both sides of at least one of my dogs pedigrees, I expected him to be more of a factor but maybe he was just too far back.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

This is so fascinating, I can't say I particularly understand it still, but I'm trying to learn....

Here's Izzie's (Fromeside Good as Gold)

*10-generation COI**11.27%**12-generation COI**13.29%**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Eng. SH. CH. Fenwood Jagger Of Canina JW3.79%Fromeside Flaky Dove3.30%Eng. CH. Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria0.78%Eng. CH. Camrose Cabus Christopher0.61%Eng. CH. Meant To Be At Moorquest0.51%
Obi's hasn't been calculated, will check with another database and see if I can get it from there...

Can anyone tell me anything about what they can tell from Izzie's?

Thanks


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## twinny41 (Feb 13, 2008)

My old Meg's pedigree*

10-generation COI** 4.71%**
12-generation COI**6.47%**
Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Eng. CH. Camrose Cabus Christopher 1.41%
Eng. CH. Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria1.08%
Eng./Irish Ch. Cabus Cadet JW0.60%
Eng. CH. Styal Scott Of Glengilde0.50%
Eng. CH. Boltby Skylon0.46%


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

Max's

10-generation COI16.65%
12 generation COI19.13%
Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:
Eng. CH. Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria3.97%
Davern Quick Silver3.70%
Eng. CH. Camrose Cabus Christopher2.20%
Dewmar Gypsy Queen of Davern1.91%
Eng./Irish Ch. Cabus Cadet JW1.33%


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## Cowtown (Sep 23, 2009)

My Jake (Topbrass Texas Rambler)...with more Sammy 

10-generation COI 0.45%
12-generation COI 0.74%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF 0.14%
Poika of Handjem OS 0.06%
Am. CH. Major Gregory Of High Farms OS 0.06%
Eng. FT. CH. Holway Westhyde Zeus 0.05%
CH Little Joe Of Tigathoe *** OS 0.04%


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Cowtown said:


> My Jake (Topbrass Texas Rambler)...with more Sammy
> 
> 10-generation COI 0.45%
> 12-generation COI 0.74%
> ...


Wow-that low COI really brings out the old (very old!) dogs for COI contribution, doesn't it?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Kate
10-generation COI 7.96%
12-generation COI 8.76%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

AFC Holway Barty OS 1.84%
NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton OS/FDHF 1.39%
FC AFC Tangelo's Side Kick OS FDHF 0.80%
AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS 0.79%
FC-AFC Chief Sands OS FDHF 0.54%


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Vixen

10-generation COI 3.55% 
12-generation COI 4.02% 


Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton OS/FDHF 1.64% 
AFC Holway Barty OS 0.81% 
Eng. FT. CH. Holway Westhyde Zeus 0.21% 
Eng. FT. CH. Mazurka of Wynford 0.20% 
Bainin of Caernac CD*** OS 0.12%


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Cowtown said:


> My Jake (Topbrass Texas Rambler)...with more Sammy
> 
> 10-generation COI 0.45%
> 12-generation COI 0.74%
> ...



We have a couple of the same dogs in our pedigrees!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

*10-generation COI**8.67%**12-generation COI**9.91%**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Am-Can CH Meadowpond River To The Sea CDX CGC Am-Can OS3.16%Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF1.26%BISS BIS Am Can CH Amberac's Asterling Aruba OD SDHF1.23%BISS Am CH Asterling Go Getm Gangbuster OS SDHF0.86%Am. CH. Autumn Lodge's Mister Zap CD ** OS0.60%


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## zephyr (Sep 29, 2009)

It's so interesting to see all of these! It's also funny to me to see that the links for "Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil" and "Holway Barty" were already clicked on by me from last SUMMER when I was looking through Oscar's parent's pedigrees... and that they show up a couple times in this thread! It's interesting to see how some dogs have so many offspring.

Do people usually only put their dogs into K9Data if they are going to breed them?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

zephyr said:


> It's so interesting to see all of these! It's also funny to me to see that the links for "Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil" and "Holway Barty" were already clicked on by me from last SUMMER when I was looking through Oscar's parent's pedigrees... and that they show up a couple times in this thread! It's interesting to see how some dogs have so many offspring.
> 
> Do people usually only put their dogs into K9Data if they are going to breed them?


Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil is in Toby's pedigree as well.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

We purposefully avoided any breeder/dog with Smokin Red Devil in their pedigree as we thought /read he was very strong willed/hyper and we wanted mellow. : ) Which we got with our choices.

Has anyone found that to be true or not? No offense meant to anyone with ties to him!!! As much as he was used for stud I am sure he was a great field dog.


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## zephyr (Sep 29, 2009)

Debles said:


> We purposefully avoided any breeder/dog with Smokin Red Devil in their pedigree as we thought /read he was *very strong willed/hyper* and we wanted mellow. : ) Which we got with our choices.
> 
> Has anyone found that to be true or not? No offense meant to anyone with ties to him!!! As much as he was used for stud I am sure he was a great field dog.


OH YEA!! You could say that about Oscar :doh:  haha We love it though, but he definitely lets you know when he doesn't want to do something... 

But as this is my first Golden and first dog, I honestly have no idea whether that is actually a characteristic of Goldens... field Goldens... or just weird Oscar quirks.

I didn't meet his dad (Tidewater's Weekend Gladiator), but his mom was very sweet and friendly, just like you would expect a Golden to be. But yes I think Oscar he is very hyper and strong-willed, although he definitely has the ability to be mellow. Although honestly we met another field-bred Golden the other day in the park, and his activity level was about 500% (!!!) of Oscar's (... he was jumping straight off the ground...), so maybe it's all relative in the end!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Debles said:


> We purposefully avoided any breeder/dog with Smokin Red Devil in their pedigree as we thought /read he was very strong willed/hyper and we wanted mellow. : ) Which we got with our choices.
> 
> Has anyone found that to be true or not? No offense meant to anyone with ties to him!!! As much as he was used for stud I am sure he was a great field dog.


Uh, you just described Toby to a T: very strong willed, but also EXTREMELY intelligent, too intelligent. To think we were blaming those traits on Funky Farquar and Sprint (Split Decision)...


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

LOL Anne!!! I think FF was pretty perfect but that's all relative to what each person wants in a dog! : )


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Uh, you just described Toby to a T: very strong willed, but also EXTREMELY intelligent, too intelligent. To think we were blaming those traits on Funky Farquar and Sprint (Split Decision)...


 
Perhaps Toby has his "bubbly personality " thanks to Smokin' Red Devil !!!


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

and his intelligence! : )


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

10-generation COI	6.43%
12-generation COI	9.23%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Eng. CH. Camrose Cabus Christopher	2.89%
Eng. CH. Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria	1.39%
Eng. CH. Nortonwood Faunus	1.26%
Eng./Irish Ch. Cabus Cadet JW	0.65%
Eng. CH. Sansue Golden Ruler	0.58%

I find Toffer's influence (as calculated) a bit too low,since he is already in her pedigree in 6th generation onwards.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

*6-generation COI**0.50%**Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Country's Lil Miss Brittany0.40%NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton OS/FDHF0.10%


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I just cut and pasted what I found under Brooks' name at K9data. Can someone tell me what it means? (He is a BYB dog)


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Looks like Brooks' whole pedigree is not entered-is that the case? His COI is only calculated on 6 generations, instead of 10 or 12.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Perhaps Toby has his "bubbly personality " thanks to Smokin' Red Devil !!!


"Bubbly personality" is an understatement: more like "in your face, the world revolves around me, aren't I smart, aren't I cute", "throw me the ball already" personality!!

I told hubby about Deb's comments on strong willed Smokin' Red Devil and hubby is now referring to Toby as the Smokin' Blonde Devil! I cannot wait to read up on other juicy tidbits of his other ancestors. I already know Funky Farquar did the "deed" with his own daughter because it's in k9 data! I'm sure that affects his COI a bit...


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

It is not all on K9data (Would I be the one who was supposed to enter it all?). 
However, by looking at the (paper) AKC pedigree, I can see that about 3 or 4 generations back, the breeders were concerned about the line. However, after that point, people started BYB and the result is Brooks.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

diana_D said:


> 10-generation COI	6.43%
> 12-generation COI	9.23%
> 
> Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:
> ...


I think you are confusing COI and Genetic Influence (or Percent Contribution). Toffer looks like he is correctly factored for COI (COI calculations are almost impossible to do by hand-too complex).

The link I posted earlier explains the difference between COI and Genetic Influence

http://www.canine-genetics.com/relation.htm


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

lgnutah said:


> It is not all on K9data (Would I be the one who was supposed to enter it all?).
> However, by looking at the (paper) AKC pedigree, I can see that about 3 or 4 generations back, the breeders were concerned about the line. However, after that point, people started BYB and the result is Brooks.


Anyone can enter a pedigree on k9data. So, if you want, you can review his pedigree and fill in the missing dogs, if you have it in his pedigree.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I didn't know I could enter any dog except my own.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Nope, people do it all the time, especially if they are entering a dog whose ancestors are not already in the database.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

lgnutah said:


> I didn't know I could enter any dog except my own.


Yes, I was very surprised that my King was entered by someone (probably because he had his UD).


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is Breeze:
*10-generation COI**11.41%**12-generation COI**12.37%*
*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
FTCH AFTCH Shurmark's Split Decision Am. MH ***OS Can. FDHF3.62%AFC Holway Barty OS2.81%AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS1.90%NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton OS/FDHF0.40%Eng. FT. CH. Mazurka of Wynford0.35%


And Dooley:
*10-generation COI**2.50%**12-generation COI**3.03%*
*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
Bainin of Caernac CD*** OS0.48%FC AFC Tigathoe's Kiowa II OS FDHF0.44%FC-AFC Misty's Sungold Lad CDX OS FDHF0.42%Cayenne's Nutmeg OD0.19%Eng. FT. CH. Holway Westhyde Zeus0.14%


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

Here is Cody:
10 generation COI 13.57%, 12 generation COI 15.97%

BIS Am Ch Faera's Destiny Kodiak Kidd 2.23%
Am Ch Misty Morn's Sunset 2.15%
Am Ch Asterling's Buster Keaton 1.85%
BISS BIS Am Can Ch Amberac's Asterling Aruba 1.73%
BIS Am/Can/Bda Ch Nautilus Edgehill Diamen' Ice 1.30%

Interesting to see some familiar names from others' posts.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Here is Breeze:
> *10-generation COI**11.41%**12-generation COI**12.37%*
> *Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*
> FTCH AFTCH Shurmark's Split Decision Am. MH ***OS Can. FDHF3.62%AFC Holway Barty OS2.81%AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS1.90%NAFC FC Topbrass Cotton OS/FDHF0.40%Eng. FT. CH. Mazurka of Wynford0.35%


 
Well that reads like a who's who of top field sires!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

According to Pat Jones' website:
"Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil - Windbreakers Razzmatazz
At least 44% of all MH or All-Age Goldens born after the 1st Red Devil-Razz litter (Nov 6, 
1980) have Red Devil-Razz genes."

Flip is a Red Devil-Razz decendant

If you've never been to her website, Pat has all kinds of interesting info on it:
http://www.undeniablegoldens.com/GoldenStudiesLink.html

* 


** 
*


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Ok, don't really know what this means but here is Tillys!


*10-generation COI **9.36%**12-generation COI **11.35%*

*Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:*

Eng. CH. Camrose Cabus Christopher2.46%
Eng. CH. Nortonwood Faunus1.59%
Eng. CH. Camrose Tallyrand of Anbria1.41%
Eng./Irish Ch. Cabus Cadet JW0.94%
Eng. CH. Styal Scott Of Glengilde0.75%


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Ok, this whole thread is so interesting! Here's Jack's:

10-generation COI 8.00%
12-generation COI 10.07%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF 1.24%
BISS Am./Can. CH Gold-Rush's Great Teddy Bear OS SDHF 1.18%
Am./Can./Bda. CH. Cummings' Gold-Rush Charlie OS, Am./Can. SDHF 0.92%
BIS BISS Am./Can. CH Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs CDX JH AX OAJ WCX VCX OS SDHF; Can. CD, WC 0.91%
Am. CH Goldwing True Bear OS SDHF 0.82%

Shockingly, Sammy is in there!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I have a question relating to COI. I overheard someone at a show this weekend say that you can breed a daughter to father but you'll either get the "best of the best" or "worst of the worst." It seems to me the COI on a breeding like that would be extremely high, right? Or am I missing something?


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## Golden123 (Dec 6, 2009)

How do you do this? Do you have to create an account with k9data?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Golden123 said:


> How do you do this? Do you have to create an account with k9data?


Yes. Then you enter your pup's (or whatever dog's) sire and dam. Assuming they are already entered into the system then you enter your dog's info and you're done! It takes a few days for them to run the genetic info though. I think it took about 1-2 weeks for Jack's to show up.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Here's Tyson's:
7-generation COI0.73% Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:
7-generation COI 0.73%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Am CH Asterling's Buster Keaton OS 0.34%
Am./Can. CH. Asterling's Wild Blue Yonder OS SDHF 0.25%
Am. CH Birnam Wood's Mountin' Ash OS 0.04%
BISS Am CH Asterling Go Getm Gangbuster OS SDHF 0.04%
Am. CH Goldwing True Bear OS SDHF 0.03%


...and Tucker's:
10-generation COI 3.69%
12-generation COI 5.24%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF 1.60%
Am. CH. Sunset's Happy Duke OS 0.57%
BISS Am./Can. CH Gold-Rush's Great Teddy Bear OS SDHF 0.51%
Am./Can./Bda. CH. Cummings' Gold-Rush Charlie OS, Am./Can. SDHF 0.44%
Am. CH Goldwing True Bear OS SDHF 0.39%


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I have a question relating to COI. I overheard someone at a show this weekend say that you can breed a daughter to father but you'll either get the "best of the best" or "worst of the worst." It seems to me the COI on a breeding like that would be extremely high, right? Or am I missing something?


 
It would be very high! Too much of a gamble to take to achieve healthy pups


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

jwemt81 said:


> ...and Tucker's:
> 10-generation COI 3.69%
> 12-generation COI 5.24%
> 
> ...





goldenjackpuppy said:


> Here's Jack's:
> 
> 10-generation COI 8.00%
> 12-generation COI 10.07%
> ...


 Wow, so apparently Jack and Tucker have a lot of the same ancestors! All but one are the same!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Lestorm said:


> It would be very high! Too much of a gamble to take to achieve healthy pups


I don't know if they were talking about an actual breeding or just having a theoretical discussion about it. I'm hoping the latter. It seems like a big gamble to me too!


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Wow, so apparently Jack and Tucker have a lot of the same ancestors! All but one are the same!


Wow! That's really cool! I didn't even notice that until now!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

jwemt81 said:


> Wow! That's really cool! I didn't even notice that until now!


Does Tucker have a k9data page? I'm curious to see where the similarities begin! (Jack is here: http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=378423 in case you don't want to go back a page)


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Lestorm said:


> It would be very high! Too much of a gamble to take to achieve healthy pups


Not necessarily  This is another case of "it depends." Here is the COI of a mother/son breeding, and I bet it is not as high as you would think. I have seen Asterling pedigrees with a much much higher COI

The mother's COI is 

10-generation COI 1.44% 
12-generation COI 2.23% 

Her son's COI is

10-generation COI 6.13% 
12-generation COI 7.06% 

and the two of them bred together

10-generation COI 29.02% 
12-generation COI 29.88% 

The puppies were overall pretty healthy but the litter was not a success conformationally, as there was a tendency to be too short backed.

Now, James bred to his mother had a very high COI

10-generation COI 56.85% 
12-generation COI 57.61% 

and all indications are that that was a pretty successful breeding, in both health and conformation.

I never say never  but I don't think this is ever a type of breeding I would try. It does make me nervous!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Interesting! I would have thought it would always be a 50% COI but I guess not.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Interesting! I would have thought it would always be a 50% COI but I guess not.


You're thinking genetic influence, where each parent contributes (theoretically) 50%, grandparents 25% and so on. In a total outcross, this is true but as soon as you start line breeding, those numbers start changing. 

Very interesting and a subject I find fascinating (surprise!) 

I had an accidental brother/sister breeding with my old boy and while it was not something I had ever planned on doing, the puppies were actually quite pretty and very healthy (with the exception of one boy who had low thyroid).

10-generation COI 32.07% 
12-generation COI 32.71% 

I did not keep any to show or breed, of course.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Tahnee GR said:


> You're thinking genetic influence, where each parent contributes (theoretically) 50%, grandparents 25% and so on. In a total outcross, this is true but as soon as you start line breeding, those numbers start changing.
> 
> Very interesting and a subject I find fascinating (surprise!)
> 
> ...


I find it fascinating too. I'm intrigued by the genetic influence vs COI also.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

If you have,the COI, of sibling,of your dog, would the COI,of your dog be the same?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

goldensrbest said:


> If you have,the COI, of sibling,of your dog, would the COI,of your dog be the same?


As long as they are full siblings (same mother and father), then yes, the COI would be the same.


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## Lestorm (Feb 25, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Not necessarily  This is another case of "it depends." Here is the COI of a mother/son breeding, and I bet it is not as high as you would think. I have seen Asterling pedigrees with a much much higher COI
> 
> The mother's COI is
> 
> ...


 
In my book anything over 22% in twelve generation is far to high and in my opinion totally irresponsible. Sorry that's my thoughts. The outcome is a gamble that doesnt effect the breeder but think of the poor pups.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

<<Now, James bred to his mother had a very high COI

10-generation COI 56.85% 
12-generation COI 57.61%>>

My friend owned a bitch from this breeding, I remember Morgan as a puppy -- she was stunning! I think CH Asterling's Leapin Lizards was her name but I could be wrong. She lived to be 12+ yrs old. 
I wouldn't in a million years recommend this type of breeding but clearly the breeder knew her lines extremely well and it was very successful.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I was wrong, Morgan was CH Asterling's Leaps N Bounds, she had a sister that was Leapin Lizards. Both long lived girls.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> I was wrong, Morgan was CH Asterling's Leaps N Bounds, she had a sister that was Leapin Lizards. Both long lived girls.


Definitely a breeding that worked for both health and conformation. It can be successfully done but as said, the breeder must really know their lines.


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## Kiowa Fan (May 12, 2017)

Swampcollie - Grumpy Old Man,

I saw your post with Angel's COI and found it interesting. My dog, Skye (Male 6-25-13) 

10 Gen COI = 5.18%, 10 Gen COI = 6.14%

FC AFC Tigathoe's Kiowa II OS FDHF	1.27%
AFC Holway Barty OS FDHF	1.09%
FC AFC FTCH Bonnie Brooks Elmer OS FDHF	0.39%
FC AFC Stony-Brook's Jersey Devil OS FDHF	0.32%
Jolly Again of Ouilmette CD *** OS	0.27%


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I don't think I've ever read through this old thread before. Very interesting info.
The comments about Smoking Red Devil were of interest because he was in our Zeke's pedigree. Zeke displayed some of the Smoking Red Devil characteristics mentioned in various comments above.

Zoe's sire was a dog brought from England and her dam was from American show lines, so I expected a low COI but I was amazed how low when I checked. Interestingly, none of the American show dogs appear in the list of her top 5 contributors.
10 generation COI 0.00%, 12 generation COI 0.05%
Top 5 contributing ancestors:
Eng. Ch. Camrose Fantango 0.02%
Dorcas Timberscombe Topper 0.01%
Ringmaster of Yeo 0.01%
Heatherbell of Arbrook 0.00%
Dorcas Bruin0.00%

Gracie's COI is also quite low. As in many of the comments above, Sammy is in the list of top 5 contributors. I think of Gracie as a performance & show combination but 4 of her 5 Top contributors are show dogs.
10 generation COI 2.71%, 12 generation COI 3.74% 
Top 5 contributing ancestors:
Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF 0.43%
Sunfire's Mighty Dove SH WCX OD 0.42%
BISS BIS Am Can CH Amberac's Asterling Aruba OD SDHF 0.25%
Am. CH. Autumn Lodge's Mister Zap CD ** OS 0.16%
BISS Am./Can. CH Gold-Rush's Great Teddy Bear OS SDHF 0.14%


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