# "Shopping" in 3 handed casting



## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

I didn't want to let this get lost in the "weekly training" thread. I am having the "shopping" problem with Riot, especially the past few days. It seems more like he has to know where each bumper is before he will willingly take the cast. If he doesn't see it instantly when he turns to take the cast, he will veer off to another he can see. I can tell he was taking the right direction, but then loses his confidence/trust. Is this something that will come with time? Should I make sure that I am still working in completely cut and short grass right now so that he can easily see all the bumpers? What kind of distance do we need to be working up to before moving on? 

Sorry for all the questions. It seems like TRT includes great info but not all the specifics and little details that I need (or think I need). I'm thinking of contacting Amy and John Dahl at Oakhill kennels (about an hour south of me) and setting up a private lesson every two weeks or so. Just so I can make sure we are moving in the right direction and get troubleshooting help if needed.

Thanks for any help!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm too new to have an answer, but I think taking lessons is a great idea!! I love ours, it really puts me on the right track.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The Dahls -- what a great opportunity! This is a great idea even if you weren't having any trouble.
I think you answered my question. My question is are the piles readily visible? The answer sounds like no. You ABSOLUTELY should be doing casting in LOW to NO cover so the bumpers are easily visible to the dog at all times. Not only does this make casting more successful but also puts in a lot of suction for the dog to learn to cast away from. If you absolutely cannot find a place with adequately short cover to set up your drills, then put stakes at the piles so he can see those. I think if you do this you will solve a lot of your problems. You are skipping ahead and asking more than he knows.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

mlopez said:


> I didn't want to let this get lost in the "weekly training" thread. I am having the "shopping" problem with Riot, especially the past few days. It seems more like he has to know where each bumper is before he will willingly take the cast. If he doesn't see it instantly when he turns to take the cast, he will veer off to another he can see. I can tell he was taking the right direction, but then loses his confidence/trust. Is this something that will come with time? Should I make sure that I am still working in completely cut and short grass right now so that he can easily see all the bumpers? What kind of distance do we need to be working up to before moving on?


In 3HC the Back bumper is just a few feet behind the dog, with Overs about 12-15 feet. The dog should be on a rope for sure, but low pressure control.





 
EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Also this is not shopping. Shopping is when the dog arrives to the pile of bumpers and rather than grab the first one he comes to and return, he picks up one, drops it, picks up another, drops it, etc, etc.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Also this is not shopping. Shopping is when the dog arrives to the pile of bumpers and rather than grab the first one he comes to and return, he picks up one, drops it, picks up another, drops it, etc, etc.


That makes much more sense. I guess my problem could be called "Marie not putting the bumpers where Riot can always see them." I'll back up and make sure he can see them easily. Thanks!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You may notice in the video that only one bumper is placed at each cast location. Using piles for 3HC is adding an invitation for needless side issues.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hey Anney, have you found dogs trained with utility articles are more likely to shop the bumper pile? When we first started doing pile work, Tito would shop. (sometimes still does, but not too much). I often thought he was looking for the "hot scented bumper" because he was actually sniffing each one, sometimes even mouth scenting them. 
I was more concerned that the opposite would happen; he'd run to the article pile and just grab, but it didn't seem to be an issue.
He quickly learned that this was not an expectation in this venue, but I was curious if you've seen that, too.




K9-Design said:


> Also this is not shopping. Shopping is when the dog arrives to the pile of bumpers and rather than grab the first one he comes to and return, he picks up one, drops it, picks up another, drops it, etc, etc.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh good lord yes, Fisher is a bad shopper and I've never done much about it. He had problems with articles that I don't wish to revisit so shopping is a battle I very consciously refuse to engage in! LOL All it means is I have to wait a little longer for him to find the right one on drills. I honestly do not think it is avoidance with him. Fisher also has very specific bumper preferences so he really is looking for the best one 
With Slater I nipped that baloney in the bud! LOL He doesn't shop.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ah, that is in keeping with what I thought, too. 
To be perfectly honest, I don't understand what the problem is with a little bit of shopping. I mean really, when they go out for a mark or blind, it's not like they have a lot of birds to choose from!




K9-Design said:


> Oh good lord yes, Fisher is a bad shopper and I've never done much about it. He had problems with articles that I don't wish to revisit so shopping is a battle I very consciously refuse to engage in! LOL All it means is I have to wait a little longer for him to find the right one on drills. I honestly do not think it is avoidance with him. Fisher also has very specific bumper preferences so he really is looking for the best one
> With Slater I nipped that baloney in the bud! LOL He doesn't shop.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Ah, that is in keeping with what I thought, too.
> To be perfectly honest, I don't understand what the problem is with a little bit of shopping. I mean really, when they go out for a mark or blind, it's not like they have a lot of birds to choose from!


I think it sorta depends. You can tell the dogs who are obsessed with bumpers and that's why they shop, and those who are avoiding more work by slowly and apathetically shopping. Fisher is definitely the former! It is annoying but on the scheme of things....not something I'm going to lose sleep over.
Fisher has favorite bumpers, so I speed up the process by putting one of his favorites in the pile, he grabs that first no questions asked and comes back right away. His favorite is big white with streamers, then big black & white with streamer, small white with streamer, small white then small orange. Weird but true


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Evan's video was how I was taught with Quinn and Gabby. Yes the bumpers are in PLAIN site. We did several just back casts before we added any over. Then we first just added one bumper on each side but still just back cast. So the dogs saw the other bumpers. I still focus on the backs more than the overs. I was stepping clearly laterally at first but as they progressed, I would assess each situation and either stay still or move over. I always use the rope. Man it's a pain to manage but learned a lot faster when they took the wrong casts. 

Gabby is a shopper. Darrin said don't worry about it. His point was when they get to blinds and marks there won't be several birds from which to choose. Gabby, like Anney said about Fisher,is bumper obsessed, I think if her mouth were big enough she would bring them all back at once. Evan says to use only one bumper, I use two on the backs, one on each side. Don't ask me why. I just do. 

Also I would take advantage of having the Dahl's so close by all means take lessons. You will not regret it. I drive 2 hours one way a week to my trainers. Worth every minute and dime spent.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> Evan's video was how I was taught with Quinn and Gabby. Yes the bumpers are in PLAIN site. We did several just back casts before we added any over. Then we first just added one bumper on each side but still just back cast. So the dogs saw the other bumpers. I still focus on the backs more than the overs. I was stepping clearly laterally at first but as they progressed, I would assess each situation and either stay still or move over.


This is how I was coached through this also. The step or two to the side really help her get the idea. Also at this point I was told to always have a bumper in my back pocket. That way I could throw to the pile to show it to her if necessary. Seems like once they catch on they love casting games.

I too think the Dahl's would be an amazing opportunity. I know Winter and I would not be as far if we did not train with a Pro.


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