# Why would you bother showing a dog if...



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If you know this dog failed hips or elbows?

This came up a little while chatting with a friend who agonized over whether she should finish a girlie who failed hips and as a result was NOT going to be bred. This friend said she felt guilty showing her dog and taking wins away from other people, or that was the way she felt.

I feel like I'm taunting the gods by starting this thread because I "may" be bringing a pup home next year. I do not know if it will be a boy or girl (I'm open either way). I feel like we might be stepping on cracks of bad luck sooner vs later, but I have not yet been in the position which my friend is in. 

My take on it was that as a boy dog owner myself who also shows... you do not play this game with a breeder mentality. It is more for the fun, experience, and getting your name/face out there and hopefully maintaining a good reputation so you can get puppies down the road to keep playing this game. <= So technically speaking, it should be fine continuing to show a dog who FAILED.

But that said, I remember that feeling with Bertie and both his sons... that's that quivering liver feeling that everything would go smash if they fail hips or elbows. And I also think bottom line is that even if you do not necessarily play this game for the sake of breeding, breeding or purpose or intent to breed is part of it. 

Thoughts?

*Other thing rattling around in my head - so I guess this is a two question post. *

If you are competing in conformation and clearly have intent to breed or long term be involved in the breed, why wouldn't you get clearances?

My thought when I look up a dog I really like and see that even though the dog is pushing 3 or older and still does not have hips/elbows on OFA.... it's either just a pet dog, or the dog failed.

I was at a dog show a couple years ago and set up with a breeder friend and one of her co-own. The co-own dog won the first show on that day and literally had somebody wanting to use him for a litter THAT DAY at the show. And breeder was annoyed to find out that the dog had not gotten his clearances yet (he was over 3 years old!) so the offer fell through.. <= The owner had been waiting for the dog to finish his CH before doing clearances and this was done 3-4 months later, but the impression given at that show was that the dog had failed.

So general question.... are you waiting for that CH or whatever title if you are holding off getting clearances done? Or why hold off? Am asking this question as somebody that sets up eye cert appointments 1 year ahead + basically did the same for hips/elbows. 🤷‍♀️


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Great question! There was a top 20 dog last year (?) that failed eyes and they continues to campaign and I always wondered why


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong in competing with a dog who failed clearances. Only breeding would be wrong. Competing is for the human's enjoyment too, so if the dog isn't being hurt by competing, I don't see the issue.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

Megora said:


> If you know this dog failed hips or elbows?
> 
> This came up a little while chatting with a friend who agonized over whether she should finish a girlie who failed hips and as a result was NOT going to be bred. This friend said she felt guilty showing her dog and taking wins away from other people, or that was the way she felt.
> 
> ...


Depends on the person, but two main scenarios come to mind. 

1) Small hobbyist who enjoys showing regardless of breeding potential. Why would they stop? Obviously the goal of conformation is to evaluate breeding stock, but there are plenty of hobbyists who just enjoy showing. There’s probably not really a reason for them to stop showing that dog unless they had breeding in the back of their mind. 

2) A breeder might have a nice dog that they want to keep showing despite failed clearances because he/she is nice and makes their program look good. If they can afford to keep the dog out there, it’s a campaign for their program, despite that specific dog not being breedable. I think there may actually have been two dogs in the top 20 with eye clearance issues last year.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> I don't see anything wrong in competing with a dog who failed clearances. Only breeding would be wrong. Competing is for the human's enjoyment too, so if the dog isn't being hurt by competing, I don't see the issue.


That's fine if competing in obedience where most people may s/n the dogs.... but conformation is a sport where literally it is about breeding the dogs. You can't compete unless the dog has breeding registration! That's the sticky zone that my friend is dealing with. And everyone knows everyone for the most part, so the thing that she hates is that sense that she doesn't belong out there with X failed dog.  When I got Bertie and his sons checked, I kinda went in with the thought "It doesn't matter, we will keep trucking for fun anyway", but there was the thought that the sport would be less fun if you know the whole time that your dog failed a very important clearance?

And I will add - the breeding conversations DO come up when you show. Talking legit offers from breeders at shows based on them seeing your dog, etc.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I don’t see it as taking away a win if you’re showing a dog that failed, I just do not see the point in continuing to show a dog that failed a clearance. If dog shows are an exhibition of breeding stock, and you can’t breed that stock, why spend the money? CHs aren’t cheap… 

The reasons I can think of are 1) it’s tied to emotions or 2) finishing that dog will help its sire or dam become an OS/OD.

As for waiting to do clearances until the CH is finished, I don’t see the logic in that.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> That's fine if competing in obedience where most people may s/n the dogs.... but conformation is a sport where literally it is about breeding the dogs. You can't compete unless the dog has breeding registration! That's the sticky zone that my friend is dealing with. And everyone knows everyone for the most part, so the thing that she hates is that sense that she doesn't belong out there with X failed dog.  When I got Bertie and his sons checked, I kinda went in with the thought "It doesn't matter, we will keep trucking for fun anyway", but there was the thought that the sport would be less fun if you know the whole time that your dog failed a very important clearance?


I still don't see the issue. She doesn't *have* to breed the dog, so...if she's worried that other dogs are losing to her dog, then that seems more like a problem with the other dogs not being as nicely conformed as hers, which isn't your friend's fault. If she enjoys it, she should do it, finish her dog and retire him/her, hopefully she can do it again with another dog who passes all clearances. I'm sure she's heartbroken over the failed clearance, anyone would be, but that shouldn't mean she can't finish her dog if the dog is capable and she likes doing it. If she's lost interest because the dog can't be bred, then by all means hang it up and just love the dog.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Oceanside said:


> Depends on the person, but two main scenarios come to mind.
> 
> 1) Small hobbyist who enjoys showing regardless of breeding potential. Why would they stop? Obviously the goal of conformation is to evaluate breeding stock, but there are plenty of hobbyists who just enjoy showing. There’s probably not really a reason for them to stop showing that dog unless they had breeding in the back of their mind.
> 
> 2) A breeder might have a nice dog that they want to keep showing despite failed clearances because he/she is nice and makes their program look good. If they can afford to keep the dog out there, it’s a campaign for their program, despite that specific dog not being breedable. I think there may actually have been two dogs in the top 20 with eye clearance issues last year.


There were two with failed eyes last year. Titch and Deuce.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> If she's lost interest because the dog can't be bred, then by all means hang it up and just love the dog.


That's not the case. This is a breeder or somebody that is trying to get the saddle on the horse and ducks in a row. She's had a lot of bad luck though. That's why this stinks especially because it's tough enough getting your foot in the door to get a prospective puppy (as a new breeder with no real history - and she had 1 litter and that was it). You have to stay active with the local club (she is very active) + keep your face and name out there.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> That's not the case. This is a breeder or somebody that is trying to get the saddle on the horse and ducks in a row. She's had a lot of bad luck though. That's why this stinks especially because it's tough enough getting your foot in the door to get a prospective puppy. You have to stay active with the local club (she is very active) + keep your face and name out there.


That does stink. I'm sorry for her, it must hurt a lot.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> There were two with failed eyes last year. Titch and Deuce.


Wait.... did Deuce's owner say anything? I haven't seen anything here or K9data????


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> Wait.... did Deuce's owner say anything? I haven't seen anything here or K9data????


Yes. I’m not blasting a secret. Lol


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Yes. I’m not blasting a secret. Lol


Oh... that really stinks. Really sorry to see this.

***I didn't start this thread to dig at any members of this forum. Maegan's post literally gave me a shock because I was literally contemplating people/dogs unrelated to the forum completely. Made me realize though that very likely there are members who might be in the position I suggested in my first post, sorry. It was not a dig.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> Oh... that really stinks. Really sorry to see this.
> 
> ***I didn't start this thread to dig at any members of this forum. Maegan's post literally gave me a shock because I was literally contemplating people/dogs unrelated to the forum completely. Made me realize though that very likely there are members who might be in the position I suggested in my first post, sorry. It was not a dig.


I thought you were worried that I was spilling secrets I shouldn’t be spilling. Lol 

I didn’t take any of your posts as a dig at people that may have had a dog fail a clearance. Re: the emotional side I mentioned earlier, some people will finish dogs that truly deserve to finish, despite failed clearances. It’s a way to honor a deserving dog, even if they should not be bred. That is a reason I totally get. I don’t get spending the money on it when it’s a mediocre dog at best.

It really sucks for everyone when you have truly beautiful and well put together dogs like, Deuce and Titch, fail a clearance.

That’s not to say that the logical side of my brain totally understands the reasoning behind campaigning a dog with a failed clearance to the top 20. 😅


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> I don’t get spending the money on it when it’s a mediocre dog at best


Re showing dogs who are mediocre at best - Oh gosh, that's a completely different subject. And can be very problematic depending on who you speak to. 

There's politics, kennel blindness, fan girls, and so on. It's a protect yourself if you live in a glass house thing.




ArkansasGold said:


> It really sucks for everyone when you have truly beautiful and well put together dogs like, Deuce and Titch, fail a clearance.


It sucks, but it's unfortunately a fact of life. 

Me personally - I recognize that while I've been very lucky so far... there may be bad days ahead if I stay in the game. I will bring home a fantastic and promising pup... who fails hips or elbows. Or my dogs will be one of the rare ones in their lines to develop PU.... 

I do not know very much about either dog... not my types, etc... but I will venture to say that if I were a breeder and in the position to finish a dog and campaign him to top 20, etc... it would be worth it, even though he will not be bred. <= And not breeding him, is a mark of somebody who is putting their actions today where their words were yesterday. And that's a fairly difficult position for many of us who have been very firm and vocal about breeders who cut corners or breed dogs anyway. It takes your ammunition and credibility away when today you do exactly what you condemn yesterday.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It helps build majors.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

If your friend enjoys showing, then I don’t know what the big deal is. Have fun and get in practice for her next dog. It’s not hurting the dog. Now if the dog is showing signs of not having fun then quit! Doesn’t it help build majors?

I have so many questions about why people breed the dogs they breed. I keep it to myself because it’s really none of my business. On top of that, I never know if what I’ve heard is true.


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## JerseyChris (10 mo ago)

I can give you our point of view on this. We as a family (my wife, daughter and I) show dogs as a fun hobby. We have no interest in breeding currently and my older boy who is now 3 we are not going to breed him. I have not gotten his hips/elbows done and up in the air if we will. His littermate was done since she will most likely be bred. We take our show program quite serious for hobbyists and are out almost every weekend. Every dog in our show program are all Grand Champions and we also try to pick 1 or 2 dogs to be the special that we rank that season. We are working on getting our 3 year old finished hopefully as he matures a little bit. We want to finish him just because that is what we do. I don't see any negative to wanting do that even though we are not going to breed him. He is also one of the dogs my daughter uses for Juniors as well.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

JerseyChris said:


> I have not gotten his hips/elbows done and up in the air if we will.


Hmmm..... because I do obedience with my guys and want them to be able to jump (they typically have jumping or flying in their names for good luck), doing hips/elbows is a matter of course. Or getting a peep at them at least. So even if conformation were completely 100% just for fun (it's basically 50/50 for me for fun and for serious LOL) - I would still want to get the hips/elbows checked. On the 50% serious end, if somebody comes up and wants to use my dogs, I don't want to be in the awkward position at a show or trial somewhere like that other person I mentioned previously on this thread. It's that same reason I got the stupid DNA thing done even though I basically had zero concerns about my dogs having ichy or NCL or anything else or being a carrier, etc. There's very little chance of ichy or NCL being in my guys lines, etc.... but I still did the DNA test because many of the performance/obedience people approaching me and asking after my guys had ichy carriers. I could not give them a straight answer, and ethically they couldn't consider my dogs. 

Separate from that - majority of golden people who are very serious in obedience even with limited registration dogs who cannot be bred... they DO get the hips/elbows done. Because for the sake of the dog they should. 

I know you come from collies where they do not really worry about hips and elbows at all. Talking with Kristy on this forum and others, that was a very huge change of perspective and broke our brains a little when interviewing collie breeders and trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak.  You come from a breed where it is very typical to take a whole litter in to see an ophthalmologist as part of the puppy selection process.... but some breeders may be glazed over and very vague when it comes to other clearances which like say we do in goldens as a matter of course not just for the dog's benefit when competing in dog sports, but also just to benefit a breeder who might want/like to have all that extra information. One of my friends who is a breeder and follows the guidance/mentorship of another, has it in her puppy contract that all puppy people need to get OFA's done. It means there might be a lot of negative information out there as a downside, but it also means that the breeder can absolutely say she's not producing too much HD/ED, etc... I think.


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

I’m one of those whose goldens didn’t pass clearances, but I showed them anyway. Actually, I’ve done that three times. My very first CH golden, Liam, passed all his clearances, so I naively thought all my goldens would be like that.

My first show golden bitch (who I hoped would be my foundation bitch), Kylie, was 1st place in the 9-12 puppy sweepstakes at the 2002 National and earned her CH at 2 years old. Kylie was around 1 year old when I took her for her first eye exam, thinking of course she would pass. She didn’t. She had juvenile cataracts...I cried for days over that. She was very competitive in the breed ring, so I kept showing her knowing I’d never breed her. BTW, she did pass hips, elbows, heart.

My next golden bitch, Kim, was a daughter of Liam. She had both her majors and passed all her clearances, but pyo’d before I could finish her. My third CH was Kim’s son, Tulley, who I bred. Tulley did not pass hips. Except for his majors, his points were from the puppy and bred-by classes. I tried for a year to earn his majors, but after multiple major reserves, I put him with Jane Myers. She put the two majors on him in 2 weekends. Again, he was shown, knowing he would never be bred. I felt he was an outstanding representation of the breed and deserved to finish, plus he was so much fun.

My fourth CH is a bitch I bred, Meg, who didn’t pass elbows or eyes. She was fun to show and started off in the 6-9 class with a specialty major reserve. She earned points from the puppy and bred-by classes. Meg was competitive, but I couldn’t go regularly to shows, so I put her with handlers and she did finish, but will not be bred.

Anyway, my answer to showing and knowing a golden didn’t pass a clearance is a personal decision and there’s nothing wrong doing it.


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