# English Creme Golden ~ Bah Humbug! A Rant...



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

ya know what.... I have dogs that are creme ... I tell people they are just goldens but honestly I cant control if my puppy people call them "english creme" 

I get emails all the time looking for english creme... I get emails asking for white and platinum just like what oprah has.... I try to educate regarding color etc etc but I have no control over what they say later. I am fairly certain that at least one or two of them call them english creme 

I have to say its hard to not get offended with all the comments regarding english/european dogs. 

As for shipping. I did have a puppy shipped from portugal... I have friends who have pups shipped from england and denmark... 

I dont know about this particular person but honestly there are reason that someone might have a pup shipped... and who knows whether the breeder is or is not responsible...


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

"Well, La Dee Da!" hahahahahahahha! You crack me up! Aren't the, what you refer to as 'Basic Goldens' referred to as American Goldens? I have a neighbor who has a very white Golden, and I thought I was so smart and asked him if it was an English Creme, automatically thinking he would say, "why, yes", hence making me look so informed. Well---NO! It's a Bavarian Golden or something exotic like that. Coulda swore it looks just like an English Creme. They, too, had it flown in....from whatever country he said. I ALMOST felt like saying..."Well, La De Da" (in my head) too...but honestly, I think my American "Basic-good-ole-fashioned" Golden is waaaaaay prettier! Really! hee-hee!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm not into the really light goldens and even my mom can see there are more differences than just color...and I don't like color yuppies (that's how some of these english creme owners come off), but there are some good breeders out there, so I don't think it's fair to instantly jump to the conclusion that the dogs come from bad breeders, even if the "english creme" label is used.


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## Serawyn (May 23, 2011)

I am partial toward the lighter golden colors, but I agree with you, just because a dog is labeled "English Cream" doesn't mean it is not a golden. They are all beautiful and sweet to me... I love them all!

That dog owner may be very proud of the fact that she loves her golden and just came off as being snobby. I wouldn't read much into it.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I have _never _used the term "English Cream" and I never will. Chance is a Golden Retriever, that's it. When people ask me if he's an English Cream, I actually like it because it gives me an opportunity to educate them.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I was looking at Toby and I'm going to start calling him a Butterscotch Creme Golden.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> I was looking at Toby and I'm going to start calling him a Butterscotch Creme Golden.


Haha you are too funny! This gave me a laugh!

Try not to get too upset about it, people are just misinformed. A golden retriever is a golden retriever, no matter what color!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Dallas Gold said:


> I was looking at Toby and I'm going to start calling him a Butterscotch Creme Golden.


I think Ike's a Butterscotch Creme Golden too. Though he's starting to darken a bit. 

My Sam was a Caramel Golden...that's exactly how the Golden Breeder who happened to be in the Vet's office the same time I was described his coat color, she said his coloring reminded her of a caramel candy that had been stretched in the sunlight. All the shades were there. I loved that description! He did have fantastic highlights, which is why I so love our red Goldens.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Toby changes color depending on how dirty he is. It's my clue he's due for a bath.


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## harrym (Nov 13, 2010)

Amber may be a banana creme golden, since she has some black on her muzzle like a banana stem. But then, after she runs through the sprinkler and her hair is all on end, she may be a coconut creme golden.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

When I was looking for a golden I called a breeder and she asked what coloring I prefered. I told her I was partial to redder goldens. She told me to come take a look at her puppies. I came home with Oakly. : His dad is English and his mom is totally American. 

I can honestly say now that I can see the beauty in the full range of golden colors. I'm not a racist.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Is "creme" now one of the color choices on a Golden Retriever registration slip?
Last I saw it was just Light Gold, Gold, and Dark Gold. 
Just sayin'...


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Maybe the AKC can put out some color swatches so we can correctly label our pups. :



Pointgold said:


> Is "creme" now one of the color choices on a Golden Retriever registration slip?
> Last I saw it was just Light Gold, Gold, and Dark Gold.
> Just sayin'...


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## jpajinag (Nov 25, 2010)

Actually when you look into it, white or very light is technically a fault. Red (very very dark ) is also considered a fault. Aside from red and white, there is a wide variety, all of which I think are beautiful. Goldens were breed to be feild dogs, not bright white and standing out like a sore thumb while hunting, and not fur hanging to the ground tangling up with burs. Our goldens are just that golden (one light golden and one medium/dark) and I think they are gorgeous.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> and not fur hanging to the ground tangling up with burs.


My guy has feathering on his front legs that touches the ground and the feathering between his back legs comes close to touching the ground. It does get burrs tangled in it, but they are easily brushed out. 

The fur type and thickness makes a huge difference. Our collie has a different type of coat and it's thicker, and I would never take him through a burr patch. It would ruin his coat and take forever to de-matt. >.<


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## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

Ruby is a light golden although I think she may be an English cream golden as she is definately english and is a creamy golden colour lol
I think it is all a ploy to extract more cash out of people who want something more rare when in fact there is no diference apart from the amount of money that you are willing to pay


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Think you will find that very pale cream dogs actually look cream when compared to something like a Samoyed so they are certainly not white! Some of the early goldens were very pale which was why the UK standard was altered to allow cream. It is a fault in the US but not in the UK/ FCI standard. I have all colours in my dogs and the really pale ones certainly don't look white against the snow!!! Annef


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## Lerin (Jun 2, 2011)

I have a "English Cream" and so many people ask me if that is what she is. I am actually surprised about how many people have asked me. However when people ask me what kind of dog she is I don't say she is an English cream I simply describe her as a 'white' golden retriever. I know golden's are breed to be field dogs and their coats are supposed to be a golden color to blend into the 'dry' 'dead' grass that they would typically hunt in. I live in Florida and we don't really hunt hear. She is simply my dog that I eventually plan to train to bring into nursing homes or hospitals of terminally ill children and in my mind, if she is friendly and calm, as well as well behaved she is doing what I want her to do.

I fully believe that all golden's are golden's no matter what the color. Who cares if it is an "English Cream" or a "Red" Golden, it's all personal preference as to which color you choose to have, and if you want to be "politically correct." All golden's are beautiful in my eyes and I have yet to see one with a horrible personality. That should be what matters.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

cream is registered as light gold.... which is something I stress to my puppy people in the same way as those on this site who refer to RED are also referred to as dark gold but I don't see anyone getting on their backs about a color reference 

Cream is used to distinguish colors as my connie and bing are much lighter than my emmett and kaelyn who I would likely call light gold. 

When someone comes here asking for a "redhead" a term I see alot on this site or "red" golden it distinguishes them from the darker gold and everyone knows immediately what they mean even though the AKC doesn't register RED as a color. In the same way that someone coming to ask about a cream or creme dog however you want to spell it... distinguishes the color from the others and most know what that means. 

Goldens come in a wide variety and most of the folks in the UK and Europe that I know are amazed that the "American" dogs have split so greatly from the original goldens, they consider us here to have a "breed split" just sayin.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

jpajinag said:


> Actually when you look into it, white or very light is technically a fault. Red (very very dark ) is also considered a fault. Aside from red and white, there is a wide variety, all of which I think are beautiful. Goldens were breed to be feild dogs, not bright white and standing out like a sore thumb while hunting, and not fur hanging to the ground tangling up with burs. Our goldens are just that golden (one light golden and one medium/dark) and I think they are gorgeous.


it is not a fault... the standard in the US is written to penalize any dog that diverges from a medium gold. Not so in Canada or Europe... actually in the UK the dark red (not technically a color in goldens for the akc but we know what I mean) is not allowed. 

The US standard is different than most


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

It wasn't until I joined this forum that I had even heard of 'English Creme' Goldens. I at first thought it was a reference to English bred Goldens, then I learned it was a marekting ploy.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Annef wrote: Some of the early goldens were very pale which was why the UK standard was altered to allow cream.

Could you name a few of the early goldens that were very pale. The pictures I have found on some of the early goldens seem to be medium to dark gold. I would love to see some of the early light goldens.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

solinvictus said:


> Annef wrote: Some of the early goldens were very pale which was why the UK standard was altered to allow cream.
> 
> Could you name a few of the early goldens that were very pale. The pictures I have found on some of the early goldens seem to be medium to dark gold. I would love to see some of the early light goldens.


I think that the super light color at this point is style... in the same way that styles come and go in the US... if you look at goldens throughout the years here and there, you will see different styles come and go. The UK is no different. If you go into k9data you once you get much beyond the mid 80's there are fewer pictures attached to files. 

I agree that marketing dogs as "english cream" or platinum or white or whatever is just to garnish more money and make people think they are getting something rare .... in the same vein as doodles and other mixes .... however... my initial point was that I have no control over what people call them once they leave my house. I can try and educate them until I am blue in the face but people like to feel that they have something rare or better.. you see it in all facets of life... I mean why really do people wear shirts and pants with ambercrombie written across their chest or butt. 

just because someone has a light dog and calls it english cream does NOT in and of itself mean that the breeder is not a responsible one. now maybe they are but maybe they aren't but you just don't know and shipping is also not an indication of a responsible or not responsible breeder.


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## Blondie (Oct 10, 2009)

I never said or intended anything negative about breeders or buyers who need or want to ship a dog, just that it isn't for me personally. Just wanted to clarify that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva said:


> it is not a fault... *the standard in the US is written to penalize any dog that diverges from a medium gold.* Not so in Canada or Europe... actually in the UK the dark red (not technically a color in goldens for the akc but we know what I mean) is not allowed.
> 
> The US standard is different than most


I'm not a conformation person, but I thought that the standard allows light goldens and even darker goldens. And the same thing is true in the UK. White and Red is not allowed, but anything from a light creme to dark gold IS. The difference I think that somebody (Hotel4Dogs?) said that breeders know what style is winning in the rings and breed, groom, and show accordingly?

What I know about conformation would probably fit in a thimble, but I have been paying attention to what is said over and over on these threads.

About the english type goldens... I think there is a difference in their heads, their overall structure (their backs or something about their backs is different), and even their coats (is it wavier or curlier?). <- Again, just observation. I don't necessarily think they are "bad" differences, but it's interesting that most people focus the most on the color difference.


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## Liv (Jun 27, 2011)

I have had retrievers in my life for 29 years, I have never heard the term 'English Creme' and I'm English!! My first Goldie was called Prince, he was a white Stenbury Retriever and known in our family as the angel dog. I've always been attraced to the lighter coloured goldies, and I have to admit when we decided to get Bailey I went out of my way to look for a cream one as the local Stenbury breeder had moved abroad. But I adore all Goldies and seem to spy them a mile off. I love their smiley faces and their swishing tales and their kind forgiving eyes and particularly their fluffly ears that go all crinkly when they get wet. I live on a small Island in the UK and I have never seen a very dark what you call 'American Golden' But to me they are all the same. I just couldn't imagine ever having another breed.


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## harrym (Nov 13, 2010)

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Which color shade is Amber? img<Amber7M.jpg>img
OK, no picture. What have I done wrong?


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## Lerin (Jun 2, 2011)

paula bedard said:


> It wasn't until I joined this forum that I had even heard of 'English Creme' Goldens. I at first thought it was a reference to English bred Goldens, then I learned it was a marekting ploy.


I am unsure as to why this is considered a marketing ploy. The cost of the puppy depends on the breeder, and the blood line. I have seen golden puppies going from 300-to thousands, varying in colors as well. Other than what some have already mentions as the "in" factor and having something that is considered as "rare", I don't understand this concept.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lerin said:


> I am unsure as to why this is considered a marketing ploy. The cost of the puppy depends on the breeder, and the blood line. I have seen golden puppies going from 300-to thousands, varying in colors as well. Other than what some have already mentions as the "in" factor and having something that is considered as "rare", I don't understand this concept.


 
There is a large number of people breeding and selling very light colored Golden Retrievers, and marketing them as "rare", "English Cream/Creme", "Alpine White", "British Platinum", etc etc. Most are not even from the UK, many are from Romania, Russia, Poland - and frankly are of marginal quality. Because of how they are marketed (lots of rhetoric re: how rare they are, how much healthier they are, how much calmer they are, etc) the uneducated puppy buying public have been duped into paying far more money than they should be, often for dogs that have no history of health clearances. Many people are now of the belief that "English Creme" Goldens are a separate breed. Additionally, on many "breeder" sites such as this they actually DO price them buy color - the lighter the dog the more expensive they are. 
Voila. Marketing ploy. Or, fraud.


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## Lerin (Jun 2, 2011)

Guess I lucked out, I only paid the average price for mine regardless of the advertised 'english cream'. I don't think there is a difference at all honestly in the make up of the dog other than the color. I can see where there is a 'marketing ploy' just like there is in clothing and accessories with 'gucci' or 'coach'. 

I mean techniquly this hatred toward 'english creams' should also be toward 'redhead' goldens as well since this frustration seems to be over AKC standards of the dog. Im sorry, I am not trying to butt head with anyone hear on this site, I just really dislike this hatred toward this color of the breed. Put a red and white golden together and I am sure the only difference in the dog you will see is the color. Does that then turn this to a "racist" issue over the color of the dog? What happened to the love the breed?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lerin said:


> Guess I lucked out, I only paid the average price for mine regardless of the advertised 'english cream'. I don't think there is a difference at all honestly in the make up of the dog other than the color. I can see where there is a 'marketing ploy' just like there is in clothing and accessories with 'gucci' or 'coach'.
> 
> I mean techniquly this hatred toward 'english creams' should also be toward 'redhead' goldens as well since this frustration seems to be over AKC standards of the dog. Im sorry, I am not trying to butt head with anyone hear on this site, I just really dislike this hatred toward this color of the breed. Put a red and white golden together and I am sure the only difference in the dog you will see is the color. Does that then turn this to a "racist" issue over the color of the dog? What happened to the love the breed?


 
THERE IS NO HATRED TOWARDS "ENGLISH CREAMS"! (yes, I'm yelling.)
Nor frustration regarding standards. There IS a real dislike for what is fraudulent advertising.
Equating this with racism is extreme.


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## cory (Aug 23, 2010)

As the mommy of an "English Creme" Golden I will say that this post did hurt my feelings and to some extent I do take offense to it. I fell in love with Goldens and my breeder based on the temperment of the mother not the color and she just happened to be "English Creme". I have a friend that is the traditional color and the difference in temperment is amazing. Her dog is so hyper and has been chewing holes in her walls and barking and jumping and can hardly be left alone whereas Dakota can go anywhere with us and approach a toddler and instantly lay down at her feet. My "English Creme" Golden is a wonderful Golden Retriever and no different then any other traditional one other than she is lighter. I agree with the previous poster about not wanting to butt heads but this really hurt my feelings as some of us are really responsible owners and our dogs are wonderful and are being given a bad rap just because of their color.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Put a red and white golden together and I am sure the only difference in the dog you will see is the color. Does that then turn this to a "racist" issue over the color of the dog? What happened to the love the breed?


But I'm sure there are going to be differences... you are talking about diferent lines.

@Cory - I did want to say I picked my guy out for the same reasons. I met the mom and fell in love with her. And I do have a dog who has about the same sweet and docile temperament.


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## Lerin (Jun 2, 2011)

cory said:


> As the mommy of an "English Creme" Golden I will say that this post did hurt my feelings and to some extent I do take offense to it. I fell in love with Goldens and my breeder based on the temperment of the mother not the color and she just happened to be "English Creme". I have a friend that is the traditional color and the difference in temperment is amazing. Her dog is so hyper and has been chewing holes in her walls and barking and jumping and can hardly be left alone whereas Dakota can go anywhere with us and approach a toddler and instantly lay down at her feet. My "English Creme" Golden is a wonderful Golden Retriever and no different then any other traditional one other than she is lighter. I agree with the previous poster about not wanting to butt heads but this really hurt my feelings as some of us are really responsible owners and our dogs are wonderful and are being given a bad rap just because of their color.


I agree. This has really turned me off to this entire forum that I have been in love with since I found it.


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## gottaBgolden (Jan 16, 2008)

cory said:


> As the mommy of an "English Creme" Golden I will say that this post did hurt my feelings and to some extent I do take offense to it. I fell in love with Goldens and my breeder based on the temperment of the mother not the color and she just happened to be "English Creme". I have a friend that is the traditional color and the difference in temperment is amazing. Her dog is so hyper and has been chewing holes in her walls and barking and jumping and can hardly be left alone whereas Dakota can go anywhere with us and approach a toddler and instantly lay down at her feet. My "English Creme" Golden is a wonderful Golden Retriever and no different then any other traditional one other than she is lighter. I agree with the previous poster about not wanting to butt heads but this really hurt my feelings as some of us are really responsible owners and our dogs are wonderful and are being given a bad rap just because of their color.


*Nobody here has a problem with the color of the DOG, it's the BREEDERS who profit from the color and try to convince prospective buyers that these dogs are "better bred" than darker ones, to justify charging more when there is NOTHING different THAN color. This is what gets people angry-NOT the color---the GREEDERS*


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

cory said:


> As the mommy of an "English Creme" Golden I will say that this post did hurt my feelings and to some extent I do take offense to it. I fell in love with Goldens and my breeder based on the temperment of the mother not the color and she just happened to be "English Creme". I have a friend that is the traditional color and the difference in temperment is amazing. Her dog is so hyper and has been chewing holes in her walls and barking and jumping and can hardly be left alone whereas Dakota can go anywhere with us and approach a toddler and instantly lay down at her feet. My "English Creme" Golden is a wonderful Golden Retriever and no different then any other traditional one other than she is lighter. I agree with the previous poster about not wanting to butt heads but this really hurt my feelings as some of us are really responsible owners and our dogs are wonderful and are being given a bad rap just because of their color.


 
*Again, there is nothing against the dogs, or their owners*. It is a fact that there is no such thing as "English Creme", and the issue is how many "internet breeders" (for lack of a better term) have made people believe that such dogs are better/more valuable/rarer, etc.
As for the difference in your dog and your friend's dog regarding temperament, color has nothing to do with it. Breeding/training/environment, etc, do.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

gottaBgolden said:


> *Nobody here has a problem with the color of the DOG, it's the BREEDERS who profit from the color and try to convince prospective buyers that these dogs are "better bred" than darker ones, to justify charging more when there is NOTHING different THAN color. This is what gets people angry-NOT the color---the GREEDERS*


Exactly!! It is the bad breeders out there who make people think that an "english creme" is rare or somehow better. They are ALL golden retrievers. No worse, no better...just retrievers and we love them all, regardless of color.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lerin said:


> I agree. This has really turned me off to this entire forum that I have been in love with since I found it.


 
You are either missing the point, or simply don't want to see it. NO one has a problem with the dogs or their owners.

*This is a rerun (multiple rerun) discussion, and for several years these points have been discussed, and ALWAYS the same thing is said - NO ONE HATES THE DOGS OR THEIR OWNERS. I OWNED an English Import, and he was very light, and very much what one would consider English Style (he was from Rossbourne Kennels). We loved him dearly. This was long before the nonsense of importing dogs from pretty nearly anywhere but the UK and because they are very pale calling them "English Cream/Creme/Platinum, etc etc. and charging more.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

jpajinag said:


> Actually when you look into it, white or very light is technically a fault. Red (very very dark ) is also considered a fault. Aside from red and white, there is a wide variety, all of which I think are beautiful. Goldens were breed to be feild dogs, not bright white and standing out like a sore thumb while hunting, and not fur hanging to the ground tangling up with burs. Our goldens are just that golden (one light golden and one medium/dark) and I think they are gorgeous.


Thanks I agree they were bred to be field dogs not foot warmers.



> I mean techniquly this hatred toward 'english creams' should also be toward 'redhead' goldens as well since this frustration seems to be over AKC standards of the dog.


Wrong, red has been in the line for a long time and is not an uncommon gene like the white. They did not breed Goldens to be very light colored and stand out in the field. I read at some point and time they were crossed with bloodhounds to get the excellent nose that they have. The first dual champion was darker than he was light.




> I have a friend that is the traditional color and the difference in temperment is amazing. Her dog is so hyper and has been chewing holes in her walls and barking and jumping and can hardly be left alone



This is a prime example of why some people should not own a Golden. It was bred to be working dog. It needs a job to do. Every bit of that behavior is her fault. That same dog would probably make someone a good hunting,agility or Obedience companion. I really wish people who want a couch potato or intend to leave their dog alone for long periods of time would look elsewhere and find another breed. If you are selfish enough to think that your Golden only purpose is to be alone all day then sit quietly at your feet after you come from work. Get a stuffed toy that looks like one. That way you won't doom an unsuspecting pup to a life of boredom. For your personal pleasure and to look good to your friends. The very qualities that were bred into them from the start are being removed. That's not even taking health issues into consideration.


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## goldenboy2010 (Nov 23, 2010)

A few times a week on walks with my dog, the following conversation will play out between myself and a stranger.

Stranger: "Wow what a beautiful dog. What kind is it?" 
Me: "Golden retriever"
Stranger: "But he's so white."
Me: "Well, he's more so cream coloured."

Stranger looks at me skeptically. CLEARLY the stranger who didn't even know he was a golden, knows more about goldens than I do.

Stranger: "Really?" 

Me: "He's an English style of golden retriever." 

I would rather someone think he is cream or English cream or whatever than white. If that person goes out and looks for an English cream golden, well hopefully they will find a reputable breeder that breeds for conformation and temperament and not colour. If they go with a breeder that abuses the term English cream and charges a ridiculous price for their "rare, creme de la creme" dog, well shame on them for not doing their research.

Having someone believe my dog is white and not a true golden is annoying so I guess that is why I throw the English style bit in the conversation. I don't think white is in the standard anywhere is it?


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I get the same thing with Max. "Oh, he's too blonde to be a Golden Retriever! He's too curly, must be some poodle in there! He's too big!" Yeah, whatever, he's out of breed standard, so shall I send him back because he's somehow defective? I gave up trying to "educate" people, I just love my Max.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Enzo isn't a Golden Retriever because GR's are blonde and he's too orange-y....total opposite of the cream pups, but I heard it all the time so I can sympathize.


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## Lerin (Jun 2, 2011)

laprincessa said:


> I get the same thing with Max. "Oh, he's too blonde to be a Golden Retriever! He's too curly, must be some poodle in there! He's too big!" Yeah, whatever, he's out of breed standard, so shall I send him back because he's somehow defective? I gave up trying to "educate" people, I just love my Max.


Thank you and that is how I feel about my Molly. We love her to death, she has a job to do, and she is taken care of. 

I am sorry I may have "misunderstood" this post. I honestly thought it came across as against the individuals, the dogs AND the breeders. Up until the last couple of post that is honestly what I thought. I will leave my two sense out of this topic from here on out.


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## Miley (Nov 2, 2010)

After reading all these posts, i am very confused. You say that it's a matter of people charging more for "english cream" however, did she ever say that she paid a lot more or are you assuming? Judging by the first post, I think it's nothing more than an assumption. 

I think people can argue until they're blue in the face but let's face it, who cares? I love my dog, and I would hope you love yours. I have an "english style" golden (please note the quotations) and I would like to add that she cost me nothing more than $1000.00 (average rate for any color). 

Prior to her, I owned a "redhead". Once Jess (the redhead) passed, I wanted another golden but wanted one opposite as what Jess looked like... For me it was nothing more than a preference. 

Sure I was told that the english cream have a "better temperament" but I have to say that I don't agree with this at all. I think a golden is a golden regardless of what color her hair is. It all comes down to training. 

I don't understand why people let other people referring to their golden's as "english golden's" bother them so much. If they want to walk around all uneducated about the "color" of dog they have, let them, WHO CARES. 

I get asked daily "what kind of dog is she?". My response is "a golden retriever". of course you get the "but she is so white...". My response, "her parents came over from Europe and in Europe, the goldens have a tendency to be lighter in color. 

Maybe the person that says "she is an english golden retriever", doesn't want to go into the whole explanation that I usually have to go into. Maybe they're educated about the color and maybe they did pay what you paid for yours...

Who cares what color our babies are, or what we paid for them or what we refer to them as. More important things in life to be concerned with, IMO.


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## Blondie (Oct 10, 2009)

I sincerely apologize for going on my rant in the first place. No intention was to come across as racist or to rattle anyone's cage. My intention was to clearly express that I was frustrated during my interaction with a woman who came across with the attitude of superiority or entitlement with her light golden retriever, which she made sure I knew it was, an "English Cream." That some how her dog was far better than my, "middle of the road golden retriever." I do appreciate all goldens, no matter what color and as I said in my post initially, I had trouble seeing from a distance if it was a great pyrenees, of which are also very beautiful.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> This is a prime example of why some people should not own a Golden. It was bred to be working dog. It needs a job to do. Every bit of that behavior is her fault. That same dog would probably make someone a good hunting,agility or Obedience companion. I really wish people who want a couch potato or intend to leave their dog alone for long periods of time would look elsewhere and find another breed. If you are selfish enough to think that your Golden only purpose is to be alone all day then sit quietly at your feet after you come from work. Get a stuffed toy that looks like one. That way you won't doom an unsuspecting pup to a life of boredom. For your personal pleasure and to look good to your friends. The very qualities that were bred into them from the start are being removed. That's not even taking health issues into consideration.


I agree somewhat with this... if only that most goldens are going to be "busy" dogs. They need jobs. They need to get out and be in fields and woods and be given a chance to use their noses and webbed feet.  

The difference I feel or the part I disagree with is the ability of a dog to tone it down and store up energy for when it's time to work. Because people want a dog who is quiet and well-behaved and an ideal companion in the home, that does not mean the golden retriever is not for them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lerin said:


> Thank you and that is how I feel about my Molly. We love her to death, she has a job to do, and she is taken care of.
> 
> I am sorry I may have "misunderstood" this post. I honestly thought it came across as against the individuals, the dogs AND the breeders. Up until the last couple of post that is honestly what I thought. I will leave my two sense out of this topic from here on out.


 
And that would be a shame, really. As someone who loves their dog, your opinion and thoughts are valued. It was just important that you know that the issue is NOT with the dogs or owners, just those unscrupulous breeders who capitalize on a fraud.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Better that she sail on with her ignorance that upset her day with the truth. If she is proud of her dog so be it. Some think they are entitled just because they think they are entitled. What her idea of superiority is only based on her opinion and that's probably good enough for her.



Blondie said:


> I sincerely apologize for going on my rant in the first place. No intention was to come across as racist or to rattle anyone's cage. My intention was to clearly express that I was frustrated during my interaction with a woman who came across with the attitude of superiority or entitlement with her light golden retriever, which she made sure I knew it was, an "English Cream." That some how her dog was far better than my, "middle of the road golden retriever." I do appreciate all goldens, no matter what color and as I said in my post initially, I had trouble seeing from a distance if it was a great pyrenees, of which are also very beautiful.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Lerin said:


> This has really turned me off to this entire forum that I have been in love with since I found it.


I felt this way too with a few threads awhile back, (this topic has been beat to death here :uhoh. But when I re-read a lot of the posts I knew it wasn't the dogs that had sparked such debates, it was the breeders and _only_ the breeders.

Everyone on this forum loves all Goldens, (there may be a couple of members that dislike light Goldens, but you can usually tell by their posts ), and I've come to realize that. My feelings got hurt quite a few times, but I was wrong to feel the strong responses were aimed at the dogs themselves. 

I personally prefer the light color but I really like _all_ the colors that Goldens are. They're all beautiful.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Up here in Maine, we've got breeders who call them English/Euro creme or American Standard. You know what gets my hackles up? People who call for puppies and ask if they are "block head" Goldens or when they lady in the bank tells me hers is a block head golden.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Up here in Maine, we've got breeders who call them English/Euro creme or American Standard. You know what gets my hackles up? People who call for puppies and ask if they are "block head" Goldens or when they lady in the bank tells me hers is a block head golden.


all my goldens are "blockheads" 

I had a guy call looking for flat headed retrievers... well yeah they can be flat headed sometimes


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I think if they are golden, any color, they are great. And yes, i understand, they charge too much, for the cream colors, by marketing them, people fall for all kinds of things.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I kinda think that we all love goldens and are quick to rave about somebody's beautiful dog, regardless of color. But when it comes right down to it, we have our own preferences for type and coloring - and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't even think those preferences necessarily disclude other types and colors. If you left it up to me, my Deedeedinah would have gone to a different family and we would have had a red-headed boy temporarily named "Barker". : Thank God we opted for the light golden instead. 

I think where people get antagonistic is when other people and/or attitudes rub them the wrong way. And because there are people pitching "English Creme" as extra special goldens and there are even owners and breeders who diss all American lines... there is a lot of annoyance to be felt.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

The dog that was very pale was a dog called Gilder who was the sire of 8 UK champions if I remember correctly. Joan Gill said that he was a pale cream dog dog but obviously all the photo's of him are in black and white!!Think he was born in the 1930's but would have to check that.
The reason that UK bred goldens look different to the US ones is that the US has a different breed standard. The heads on UK goldens look stronger with more stop but I can only go on photo's having only seen 1 US champion in the UK. Hope to rectify that with a visit to the US national when I retire.Annef


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## davebeech (Feb 11, 2006)

hey, Tom is English, even lives in England, he's also very white/cream depending on whether he's wet or not, but is he an English Creme Golden ? ........NO, he's a golden Retriever .........end of !!


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks Annef.

I found a link that has a picture of Gilder (a pdf file). 

Gilder 7/31/1929 - 1942 
Breeder E Needham Davies
owner Major H. Wentworth - Smith
Registered October 1930

http://www.perfectpeacegoldens.com/pdf/WhatExactlyIsAnEnglishGoldenRetriever.pdf 

I didn't read the article as of yet but it has a lot of pictures of early goldens.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

solinvictus said:


> Thanks Annef.
> 
> I found a link that has a picture of Gilder (a pdf file).
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that link - I've seen that article before and thought that the history was very interesting.

One thing I wanted to say was googling the one golden in the article Catcombe Corblimey - what a gorgeous sweetheart! <: http://www.retrievers-catcombe.co.uk/boys/corblimey/


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Well I am from England and here there is no such thing as an English Cream Golden Retriever - they are all Golden Retrievers, in varying shades, plain and simple - Unless of course you want a Scone with that English Cream - make that a Cornish Clotted Cream Scone for me please.


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## jpajinag (Nov 25, 2010)

I personally do not have any problem with any of the colors. Looking at both standards, one can clearly see that "white" is not allowed. I think anyone purchasing an animals is responsible for doing their own research and choose as they please. For me a Golden is a Golden. With in any breed there are a wide variety of personalities. Training and enviroment are the biggest influences on the dogs, any "style" dog can come from good or bad tempermant bloodlines.

UK Standard:
Coat
Flat or wavy with good feathering, dense water-resisting undercoat.

Colour
Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.


AKC Standard:
Coat
Dense and water-repellent with good undercoat. Outer coat firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky, lying close to body; may be straight or wavy. Untrimmed natural ruff; moderate feathering on back of forelegs and on underbody; heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail. Coat on head, paws, and front of legs is short and even. Excessive length, open coats, and limp, soft coats are very undesirable. Feet may be trimmed and stray hairs neatened, but the natural appearance of coat or outline should not be altered by cutting or clipping.

Color
Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.


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## Ivyacres (Jun 3, 2011)

*"Well, La Dee Da!" hahahahaha! Reminds me of friends who would rave about meals in a fancy restaurant "maaaashed poootaaatoooes aaaannnd gggrrraaavvvvyyyy! Guess they were really gooooood! hahaha!
Goldens are grrrrreat!
*


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> Thanks for posting that link - I've seen that article before and thought that the history was very interesting.
> 
> One thing I wanted to say was googling the one golden in the article Catcombe Corblimey - what a gorgeous sweetheart! <: Catcombe Golden Retrievers - Ch. Catcombe Corblimey


 
I have always loved Corblimey! He could come live with me ANY day!


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## ElvisnHenry'sMom55 (Mar 10, 2011)

Oaklys Dad said:


> When I was looking for a golden I called a breeder and she asked what coloring I prefered. I told her I was partial to redder goldens. She told me to come take a look at her puppies. I came home with Oakly. : His dad is English and his mom is totally American.
> 
> I can honestly say now that I can see the beauty in the full range of golden colors. I'm not a racist.


 
Henry is British American...or so I say jokingly. ha ha

His Mom is English and Dad is American, just the opposite of your dog's parents.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

jpajinag said:


> I personally do not have any problem with any of the colors. Looking at both standards, one can clearly see that "white" is not allowed. I think anyone purchasing an animals is responsible for doing their own research and choose as they please. For me a Golden is a Golden. With in any breed there are a wide variety of personalities. Training and enviroment are the biggest influences on the dogs, any "style" dog can come from good or bad tempermant bloodlines.
> 
> UK Standard:
> Coat
> ...



Most of the time when people talk about "white" they are actually referring to cream... Oprah for example refers to her goldens as white... when they are actually cream... a cream dog can look very pale/white until you put them outside in snow or have them next to something that is actually white... but to the average persons eye, they will call them white.


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## harrym (Nov 13, 2010)

Lots of white on chest, underside, and feathering on legs and tail. Some black hair on nose and around mouth. Probably doesn't meet the standard?

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=16730&catid=member&imageuser=15511


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

harrym said:


> Lots of white on chest, underside, and feathering on legs and tail. Some black hair on nose and around mouth. Probably doesn't meet the standard?
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...p?i=16730&original=1&c=member&imageuser=15511


She's a beautiful little girl. The lighter fur may darken as she grows up, but those spots are areas where most goldens have lighter (not white) fur. Since she's going to be a light-medium gold color when she grows up (going by her ears), that fur might always be lighter. 

The black pigment around her nose and mouth is normal too.

She has a very sweet face.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

harrym said:


> Lots of white on chest, underside, and feathering on legs and tail. Some black hair on nose and around mouth. Probably doesn't meet the standard?
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=16730&catid=member&imageuser=15511


But she is totally cute.....


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## kathi127 (Sep 17, 2009)

harrym said:


> Lots of white on chest, underside, and feathering on legs and tail. Some black hair on nose and around mouth. Probably doesn't meet the standard?


She is beautiful! Neither of mine meets the standard either but I wouldn't take a million bucks for either of them!


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Nope. Send her back, she's defective. 
She's beautiful, so pfffffffffffttttttttttt to the standard, I say. 


harrym said:


> Lots of white on chest, underside, and feathering on legs and tail. Some black hair on nose and around mouth. Probably doesn't meet the standard?


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

No, not white just cream shading- well within UK standard anyway!! Annef


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

annef said:


> No, not white just cream shading- well within UK standard anyway!! Annef


Exactly... and it's even in that link that Solinvictus posted on the previous page. I noticed it because my dog has the flashy lighter blond underwear.  Even our redheads had lighter coloring in their trousers and underbelly.



> Some judges may even be uncomfortable with light colored feathering, but this is described in the Standard and is an attractive part of the Golden’s appearance.


​​​​


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