# Heeling Resources



## CAROLINA MOM

Bumping up


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## Megora

https://petrasdogresourcecenter.com/training-tips/



^^^ See Petra Ford's channel for some helpful tips. She also offers online lessons.






^^^ Janice Gunn trains heeling a smidge different, but fundamentals are all very helpful.

I normally would suggest Bridget Carlsen, but her website is offline and I'm not sure what's going on there. Bridget is not for everyone, but is more entertaining and inspiring to watch than perhaps a Connie Cleveland seminar? Majority of trainers use a combination of Bridget and Connie in their training. Connie is a bit more old style pop-pop type handling. Bridget is more overt motivation. 

Other thing is to watch videos on youtube of competition heeling runs. Sometimes you can pick up training tips that way. Actually a lot of the time.

Only other suggestion is leave home. Take your dog out to train at petstores, storefronts, downtown parks, school parking lots, church parking lots, etc. Good thing with heeling is it is the most prime take on the road training exercise and you don't need equipment.


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## diane0905

Megora said:


> https://petrasdogresourcecenter.com/training-tips/
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ See Petra Ford's channel for some helpful tips. She also offers online lessons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^ Janice Gunn trains heeling a smidge different, but fundamentals are all very helpful.
> 
> I normally would suggest Bridget Carlsen, but her website is offline and I'm not sure what's going on there. Bridget is not for everyone, but is more entertaining and inspiring to watch than perhaps a Connie Cleveland seminar? Majority of trainers use a combination of Bridget and Connie in their training. Connie is a bit more old style pop-pop type handling. Bridget is more overt motivation.
> 
> Other thing is to watch videos on youtube of competition heeling runs. Sometimes you can pick up training tips that way. Actually a lot of the time.
> 
> Only other suggestion is leave home. Take your dog out to train at petstores, storefronts, downtown parks, school parking lots, church parking lots, etc. Good thing with heeling is it is the most prime take on the road training exercise and you don't need equipment.


Thank you, Kate. That's a lot of helpful information. I will check out Petra's website and Youtube channel. I've heard of Janice Gunn and will look at hers. I haven't heard of Bridget, but I talked back and forth with Connie Cleveland once via email when Logan was a puppy. She was very nice.

I've been leaving home to train Logan a lot more lately -- at our state capitol, our university, and a local park, but have not tried heeling practice while out and about. I'll start doing that.


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## PalouseDogs

There are a number of excellent on-line OB programs now. What they all have in common is: focus on attention and teaching heel in small steps and parts. Start with stationary attention and/or finding heel in motion, work up to a handful of steps with attention, perfect the components (straight line, changes of pace, circles, left turns, right turns, about turns) individually before combining them, etc. Start with a very high rate of reward, reduce and randomize rewards, start with no distractions, gradually proof by increasing levels of distraction.

IOW, don't go to a pet dog training class and march around with a bunch of other dogs. Loose-leash walking is not the same as a competition heel. I am very fond of Connie Cleveland and also like Petra Ford, but, really, any systematic training program with the elements above will work. Janice Gunn is great, too. 

Kelly


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## diane0905

Thanks Kelly. I appreciate the advice. I know it isn't the same as loose leash walking. I was told it was a deduction if the leash gets taut during rally, but Logan isn't having any issue staying beside me to that extent. He's keeping his head up most of the time. On the Fenzi course she suggested a touch if the dog's head isn't staying up , but Logan started thinking I wanted him bouncing on up beside me to touch my hand repeatedly as I walked along -- cute, but not what I was looking for. I stuck with stationary touching for that drill.

I know this is a learn as you go process, especially for someone new. I just want to make sure we are getting things right as we go along and there are so many resources (many incorrect) out there. I think the hardest part, for me, is figuring out how all the little pieces string together into a whole. I'm happy I have found resources to show me things like pivoting and how it helps, pocket hand, and so on. I certainly wouldn't have come up with that on my own. lol

I've been to one obedience and rally competition as a volunteer. I could only peer in from the door as there were no spectators. Another one is being held in May, so I may go just to watch if they are allowing it by then.


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## diane0905

I loved watching this:


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## ArkansasGold

Matt Twitty has been posting the steps of his heeling program on the Lakeland Canine Academy Facebook page about once a week for the last couple of months. I've been going through it step by step with Eevee and I am really liking what I'm seeing. I'm a few weeks behind, but I'm starting to see where it's going. It's slow, so be patient, but all of the best heeling programs are slow. He typically drops videos on Tuesday and then does a Facebook Live the next morning where he will explain in more detail and answer questions. All of the videos and Lives are available to watch if you haven't been following along the whole time. Oh, and this is 100% FREE.


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## diane0905

ArkansasGold said:


> Matt Twitty has been posting the steps of his heeling program on the Lakeland Canine Academy Facebook page about once a week for the last couple of months. I've been going through it step by step with Eevee and I am really liking what I'm seeing. I'm a few weeks behind, but I'm starting to see where it's going. It's slow, so be patient, but all of the best heeling programs are slow. He typically drops videos on Tuesday and then does a Facebook Live the next morning where he will explain in more detail and answer questions. All of the videos and Lives are available to watch if you haven't been following along the whole time. Oh, and this is 100% FREE.


Thank you so much! I will go follow him on FB. So nice of him to do that free of charge.


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## diane0905

So, I bought a webinar on Petra Ford's website called Heeling Building Blocks. I'm about 3/4ths through it and there is a lot of helpful information. She's very understandable also. I'll finish watching and then re-watch/take notes so I can start trying to incorporate her suggestions. I like the way she uses and teaches bounce as opposed to the higher up touch suggested on the get ready to rally course I took (although the course is very helpful for getting ready to rally.) Logan was getting overboard excited with the higher up touch and getting crazy out of position. Some of the engagement play she suggests will be right up Logan's alley also. Perhaps he will feel it's less ho hum if I keep it shorter and more fun. 🤪


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## aesthetic

I have that precision heeling class - it is a lot! Denise breaks down each aspect of a proper heel into tiny, tiny parts - which is great! Just makes it a really time consuming class because of all the moving pieces. It does work well, I will say Kaizer's rear end awareness because of that class and his ability to swing his butt into place is really nice. It's just time-consuming, I must have spent months on that class. I don't even think I actually finished all the lectures LOL.


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## diane0905

aesthetic said:


> I have that precision heeling class - it is a lot! Denise breaks down each aspect of a proper heel into tiny, tiny parts - which is great! Just makes it a really time consuming class because of all the moving pieces. It does work well, I will say Kaizer's rear end awareness because of that class and his ability to swing his butt into place is really nice. It's just time-consuming, I must have spent months on that class. I don't even think I actually finished all the lectures LOL.


Thank you. I get bogged down in the courses I’ve taken there. It’s too many little pieces for me and I made A’s in school.  The first course I understood better, in the sense she (Nicole) pulled it all together well, was the Get Ready to Rally course.

Logan pivots really well. I’ve been working on teaching him to side step also and he picked up on a lot first lesson. He’s smart as heck and seems to have pretty good rear end awareness. I’m trying to learn how to teach him well as I think therein any fault lies. 

I think for the courses teaching style and learning style need to sync. Petra Ford is understandable to me. I also like what I’ve watched from Connie Cleveland. Fenzi is too deep for me a lot of times. I need to be able to pull all the pieces into the big picture. I get building blocks, but it's a lot. He doesn’t really belong in this list, but Zak George downright irritates me, although I’m sure he’s a lovely man. 😅


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## Megora

diane0905 said:


> He doesn’t really belong in this list, but Zak George downright irritates me, although I’m sure he’s a lovely man.


Heheh, here I thought I was the only one who felt that way.


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## diane0905

Megora said:


> Heheh, here I thought I was the only one who felt that way.



It's just too much animation for me. lol

I was just watching Petra Ford saying she always feeds her dog out of her mouth. I guess she uses hot dogs or cheese or something. I have a limit as to what I will put in my mouth. lol


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## Megora

Showing in conformation... took me forever to get used to putting liver and dog treats in my mouth. >.< 

For obedience - it gets treats out of the hands + dog never knows if you have treats or not.


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## DevWind

ArkansasGold said:


> Matt Twitty has been posting the steps of his heeling program on the Lakeland Canine Academy Facebook page about once a week for the last couple of months. I've been going through it step by step with Eevee and I am really liking what I'm seeing. I'm a few weeks behind, but I'm starting to see where it's going. It's slow, so be patient, but all of the best heeling programs are slow. He typically drops videos on Tuesday and then does a Facebook Live the next morning where he will explain in more detail and answer questions. All of the videos and Lives are available to watch if you haven't been following along the whole time. Oh, and this is 100% FREE.


I need to go do this! Pilot's heeling is slowly returning to what it was but to be competitive, he still needs to improve! I am also looking for ways for my students to improve as well! I'm waiting to sign up for his seminar again!


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## DevWind

Megora said:


> Showing in conformation... took me forever to get used to putting liver and dog treats in my mouth. >.<
> 
> For obedience - it gets treats out of the hands + dog never knows if you have treats or not.


I prefer wearing a shirt with a front pocket.


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## diane0905

Just to update, I signed up for lessons/Petra Ford with heeling via online training and am working through the first series of training videos she provided.

We just started yesterday and Logan did very well with engagement. I'm so glad I taught him touch. When he does get distracted, it's great for getting him focused again. He loves it. One of the first videos, which we will work on today, is perfect position. One thing I know I'm not doing well is keeping my shoulders square. I tend to be turned in because I'm looking so hard to see what Logan is doing and then, he sits crooked on halts. Focusing on each element is going to be educational for me and I'm going to have to learn to walk and chew gum at the same time. 🤪 😅 Hopefully, with assistance, I can figure out things well enough to come up with something presentable.

On a hilarious note (to me and my sister because I sent her my first 12 minute training video - a tad long I think), I had little chopped up pieces of turkey hot dog and cheese in my mouth and that isn't real attractive on video. 😂


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## SRW

Treats are the most problematic, distracting, misused and overused training aid there is. JMO


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## diane0905

SRW said:


> Treats are the most problematic, distracting, misused and overused training aid there is. JMO


It could become problematic. If you want to zero treat train, do it. I do not.

Have a wonderful day. Perhaps treat yourself to some ice cream and/or some uplifting meditation.


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## SRW

diane0905 said:


> It could become problematic. If you want to zero treat train, do it. I do not.
> 
> Have a wonderful day. Perhaps treat yourself to some ice cream and/or some uplifting meditation.


Use whatever training aids you like. 
I stated my opinion on treats. A search of this forum will provide a great deal of evidence to back up my statement.

I am usually in a good mood and don't treat myself to ice cream or anything else with sugar in it. I like it but it makes me fat, which in turn makes me crabby and unhealthy.


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## DevWind

SRW said:


> Treats are the most problematic, distracting, misused and overused training aid there is. JMO


Possibly. They do need to be used correctly. You do field, right? Where the work IS the reward. There is nothing wrong with that! My dogs love to heel to the line if they are going to be able to go retrieve a bird/bumper! For puppies though, treats can be the best reward since puppies' brains are in their stomachs! As they get older you fade them away. I still use an occasional treat with Pilot but his training toy is the ultimate treat! Of course, after I taught him to play tug.


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## SRW

Abeille said:


> As they get older you fade them away.


Many seem to forget that part.


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## Megora

SRW said:


> Treats are the most problematic, distracting, misused and overused training aid there is. JMO


Same thing is true for ecollars.  

Want to see obedience trainers train their dogs without treats? Would like to see field trainers actually training dogs without using an ecollar.... Is that panic in your eyes? LOLOL. <= somewhat joking. Don't care what tools people use or heavily rely on while training their dogs, as long as they know how to wean off them when it's time to compete with their dogs. It's like using a leash while training heeling. Considering AKC obedience rules state you cannot use the leash to curb or correct your dog while heeling, that implies you don't actually need a leash on with your dog. For novice trainers, that is the hardest thing secondary only to weaning off food. It still can be done, and people do it all the time. Meanwhile, they have happy dogs.


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## SRW

Megora said:


> Would like to see field trainers actually training dogs without using an e-collar


There are many still around that have done it and have seen it done. A word I frequently hear used to describe field training before e-collars is "brutal".


Megora said:


> Meanwhile, they have happy dogs.


Unhappy dogs almost never do well in field events.


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## diane0905

SRW said:


> Use whatever training aids you like.
> I stated my opinion on treats. A search of this forum will provide a great deal of evidence to back up my statement.
> 
> I am usually in a good mood and don't treat myself to ice cream or anything else with sugar in it. I like it but it makes me fat, which in turn makes me crabby and unhealthy.


Heaven forbid. 😅


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## Megora

SRW said:


> There are many still around that have done it and have seen it done. A word I frequently hear used to describe field training before e-collars is "brutal".
> 
> Unhappy dogs almost never do well in field events.


I remember obedience before treats + have seen dogs trained in "no treat" programs.

A good example was a seminar done by Connie Cleveland and she was pushing a handler to jerk her dog around to get his attention. The dog's head went up and tail went down. Watching that training video was very difficult - when you know how vibrant, excited, and just bursting with joy and energy that dogs can and should be when obedience training. Without jerking the dogs around. Nobody should see their dogs flinch when they move the leash or "chain rattle" for attention.

A lot of that is hard handedness when training dogs. But some of it is not remembering that obedience should be bringing out the play with your dog aspects in everything you do. Heeling shouldn't be a death march with your dog.

There are trainers who take that last bit very seriously and have tug toys and tennis balls and other items stuffed in their pants or hanging out of their back pockets to reward with play every chance they get. Which is fine. Treats for me are kinda useful in a way that you can quickly reward a dog and continue working. It keeps the dogs happy, but under control and working the whole time.


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## SRW

Megora said:


> I remember obedience before treats


I don't know when treats were invented other than it was long before I was born.


Megora said:


> A good example was a seminar done by Connie Cleveland and she was pushing a handler to jerk her dog around to get his attention. The dog's head went up and tail went down.


A dog too soft to tolerate an occasional jerk on the lead is not worth training. It is certainly not a desirable trait. I suspect there was more than that going on in the dogs training if he did not immediately bounce back from such a minor correction.

In addition to my beloved e-collar, I use a riding crop. Jake loves it. For every time he has been hit with it, he has been petted or scratched with it a hundred times. The "hits" are generally no more than taps and often "I miss". He hears the "whif" of the crop as he sits when told. He thinks "Ha Ha, my butt is already on the ground, I'm so good."

I often throw the riding crop and tell him to go get it so I can beat him with it later. He always brings it back to me.


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## Megora

SRW said:


> I don't know when treats were invented other than it was long before I was born.


Go back to the 90's - which was when people were starting to change how they train obedience. 




> A dog too soft to tolerate an occasional jerk on the lead is not worth training. It is certainly not a desirable trait. I suspect there was more than that going on in the dogs training if he did not immediately bounce back from such a minor correction.
> 
> In addition to my beloved e-collar, I use a riding crop. Jake loves it. For every time he has been hit with it, he has been petted or scratched with it a hundred times. The "hits" are generally no more than taps and often "I miss". He hears the "whif" of the crop as he sits when told. He thinks "Ha Ha, my butt is already on the ground, I'm so good."
> 
> I often throw the riding crop and tell him to go get it so I can beat him with it later. He always brings it back to me.


Now you are just bragging about being mean. 

Mine have never been hit, kicked, or anything. Would hate myself if that's how I had to train my dogs.


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## SRW

Megora said:


> Go back to the 90's - which was when people were starting to change how they train obedience.


Even I used treats before the 90's.



Megora said:


> Mine have never been hit, kicked, or anything. Would hate myself if that's how I had to train my dogs.


Nobody trains dogs that way. Some may try and fail.


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## diane0905

So, today we worked on engagement and taking three steps forward with Logan only moving on my left leg. It went well. I gave him treats. I also use toys. He really likes his lotus ball toys, so we use those. We also play touch. 

As for the dog beatings, sometimes I'll playfully tap Logan on the rear quarter with his Chuck-It launcher and say "Get it! " real excited when I'm playing with him. It makes him take off like lightening. It's all the physical I do.


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## diane0905

Abeille said:


> Possibly. They do need to be used correctly. You do field, right? Where the work IS the reward. There is nothing wrong with that! My dogs love to heel to the line if they are going to be able to go retrieve a bird/bumper! For puppies though, treats can be the best reward since puppies' brains are in their stomachs! As they get older you fade them away. I still use an occasional treat with Pilot but his training toy is the ultimate treat! Of course, after I taught him to play tug.


I've never thought about it until recently, but agility is certainly self-rewarding. Logan just loves the A-frame, teeter, dog walk, and tunnel.

Logan has Lotus balls and other training toys. I'm still mixing it up with treats and toys. He's 17 months old.


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## diane0905

Our first heeling training sessions are going pretty well. I need to work on getting Logan's rear portion of his body in the right position. He's tending to swing it out or to wrap it behind me. I believe the wrapping behind was taught by me when I taught him to pivot. I don't know what the swinging out is caused by. Perhaps my shoulders not being straight as I'm trying to watch him.

I have platforms I could use to straighten him out, but I'm not sure if I should be using those or not. My instructor kind of hesitated, but said I could. I also read where some people train alongside a wall? We have a tennis court I could use for that, but I don't know if that becomes a habitual thing and helps correct or if it's just a crutch that works as it is being used. I also read reward placement on the outside helps with that.

He's doing great moving with my left leg and not my right. If I back up a step with my left, he goes with the leg -- so that's good. I'm actually finding this fun and he seems good with it also. We are only doing five minute sessions each time.

I'm going to have a lot of questions with my first video submissions.

Going back to the treat discussion, the way I handled that when practicing an actual rally course, is to wait to treat until we went through all the signs we were doing for that day. He was able to go through the entire course that way, but he wasn't really heeling in my mind -- which is why I signed up for lessons. I also think I was moving through it pretty slowly and slowing him down/confusing him. My instructor said it was because he wasn't quite sure what I was asking him to do. So, we are working on it and will continue to do so until it's something I want to send in.


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## K9-Design

I like how this thread dissolved into someone who doesn't do competitive obedience telling others not to use treats, and someone who doesn't do field suggesting field trainers not use ecollars. Welcome to the internet! Now stay in your lane!


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## Megora

K9-Design said:


> I like how this thread dissolved into someone who doesn't do competitive obedience telling others not to use treats, and someone who doesn't do field suggesting field trainers not use ecollars. Welcome to the internet! Now stay in your lane!


I didn't tell people not to use ecollars, Mz Anney.  I was basically telling that person that telling people in obedience not to use treats is about the same degree of stupid as telling field people not to use ecollars. I didn't expect that I'd have to explain that word for word.


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## diane0905

And I’m just a newbie excited about learning heeling and listening to more experienced people. The online instructor recommendation was most helpful.


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## PalouseDogs

Try putting broad jump boards or landscape timbers or something similar, on the ground to heel alongside to help with the rear swinging out. 





Laura Romanik (and others) use parallel boards they weave through. Janice Gunn has a video out there of a heeling maze. (You can probably find it by googling.)
His rear is probably swinging out because he's trying to watch your face. That's fine, great, in fact, but he has to learn to do it and be aware of where his back feet are.


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## PalouseDogs

As for treats, the precision required to be competitive in OB is not self-rewarding. My boy, Pinyon, has absolutely no interest in treats when there is something to be retrieved. But, it would be hard to get this kind of enthusiasm in OB without treats.


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## Megora

PalouseDogs said:


> Try putting broad jump boards or landscape timbers or something similar, on the ground to heel alongside to help with the rear swinging out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laura Romanik (and others) use parallel boards they weave through. Janice Gunn has a video out there of a heeling maze. (You can probably find it by googling.)
> His rear is probably swinging out because he's trying to watch your face. That's fine, great, in fact, but he has to learn to do it and be aware of where his back feet are.


I use the hallway in our house or heel close to ring gating (if set up somewhere I'm training).

My issue with broad jump boards is I have dogs that stepped all over them when I tried that. Klutzes. 

With retrieves - I try to avoid using treats because I have dogs that will THROW dumbbells at me because they are in such a hurry to get the treats.


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## diane0905

PalouseDogs said:


> Try putting broad jump boards or landscape timbers or something similar, on the ground to heel alongside to help with the rear swinging out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Laura Romanik (and others) use parallel boards they weave through. Janice Gunn has a video out there of a heeling maze. (You can probably find it by googling.)
> His rear is probably swinging out because he's trying to watch your face. That's fine, great, in fact, but he has to learn to do it and be aware of where his back feet are.


Thank you! That’s a great idea. I don’t know why I didn’t think of this. I’ve been teaching him to back up for advanced tricks and have been using the upstairs hallway to keep him straighter. I also used the wings from my agility jumps to help him come in for a straighter front sit.


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## diane0905

PalouseDogs said:


> As for treats, the precision required to be competitive in OB is not self-rewarding. My boy, Pinyon, has absolutely no interest in treats when there is something to be retrieved. But, it would be hard to get this kind of enthusiasm in OB without treats.


So cool! I’m moving so much slower than you when practicing rally. I need to pick up my pace to keep him moving better and to keep his attention. I’ve been doing all the rally stuff on my own and I think I’ve been moving slow trying to figure out what the heck I’m doing also. It’s different for him I’m sure because when we walk for pleasure/exercise, I can be a pretty brisk walker.


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## diane0905

Megora said:


> I use the hallway in our house or heel close to ring gating (if set up somewhere I'm training).
> 
> My issue with broad jump boards is I have dogs that stepped all over them when I tried that. Klutzes.
> 
> With retrieves - I try to avoid using treats because I have dogs that will THROW dumbbells at me because they are in such a hurry to get the treats.


i also read it could be helpful to practice alongside a tennis court fence. I didn’t know if the benefit of that would go away once the fence is not there.


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## Megora

diane0905 said:


> i also read it could be helpful to practice alongside a tennis court fence. I didn’t know if the benefit of that would go away once the fence is not there.


I think the idea is to build muscle memory? Could be?


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## diane0905

Megora said:


> I think the idea is to build muscle memory? Could be?


Could be. I have no idea if it works that way or not. Seems possible. I will try both ideas when we are practicing.


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## PalouseDogs

I don't like heeling along walls. I do it, to make sure they can, and I also work on walking straight towards a wall and halting with the dog's nose nearly at the wall. However, walking alongside a wall tends to make a dog nervous. They are very aware of the wall. The boards work better for teaching a dog to not sqwing his rear out. He can't see the boards, but get a mild "correction" when his hind feet tap them. Don't crowd him into the boards. Give him enough space to be comfortable, but not enough to let his rear swing out. 

For Rally, teach a good heel first. Most dogs need about six to twelve months to learn a competitive heel. Work on the signs completely separate from heeling or spend 2 or 3 weeks teaching the Rally signs after you have the heeling down. Most of a Rally course is heeling and it takes place between signs. 

I did some Rally to help Pinyon get used to trials and have fun, but I think the stop and start nature of Rally damages an OB heel. Once we were in Utility and espcially after we got into the B classes chasing OTCH points, I rarely did Rally. (Except I am doing 3 Rally classes and 2 OB classes this weekend, which, I am now thinking was a moment of temporary insanity on my part.)


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## diane0905

PalouseDogs said:


> I don't like heeling along walls. I do it, to make sure they can, and I also work on walking straight towards a wall and halting with the dog's nose nearly at the wall. However, walking alongside a wall tends to make a dog nervous. They are very aware of the wall. The boards work better for teaching a dog to not sqwing his rear out. He can't see the boards, but get a mild "correction" when his hind feet tap them. Don't crowd him into the boards. Give him enough space to be comfortable, but not enough to let his rear swing out.
> 
> For Rally, teach a good heel first. Most dogs need about six to twelve months to learn a competitive heel. Work on the signs completely separate from heeling or spend 2 or 3 weeks teaching the Rally signs after you have the heeling down. Most of a Rally course is heeling and it takes place between signs.
> 
> I did some Rally to help Pinyon get used to trials and have fun, but I think the stop and start nature of Rally damages an OB heel. Once we were in Utility and espcially after we got into the B classes chasing OTCH points, I rarely did Rally. (Except I am doing 3 Rally classes and 2 OB classes this weekend, which, I am now thinking was a moment of temporary insanity on my part.)


I'm revisiting this thread because I have another question.

Do you think it's fine to take both rally and obedience when the dog is on the novice level?

I'm taking a novice competition obedience class (started two weeks ago) and agility foundations (started in November.)


My local obedience club has decided to start classes now instead of waiting for the fall. I saw they had put up novice/intermediate rally and signed up because we've worked on it and I want Logan to have his rally novice also. Is that too much? Logan does better/is happier when he's busy and learning.

I think I'm "looser pandemic regulations" happy I'm seeing so many courses opening up.


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## ArkansasGold

I think the answer to this really depends on your personal goals. Do you want to have higher scores in Rally or Obedience in the short term? Are you just going for titles and not necessarily high scores?

The thing about Rally - and don’t get me wrong, I love Rally - is that it can be detrimental to your performance in Obedience. Rally’s loose heal position requirements, constant talking, and easier scoring can cause you issues down the road in Obedience. This I know from personal experience. Unless you hold yourself to the same standard re: heel position and how much you talk. The most successful Rally teams that I have personally seen are usually trained and/or titled in Obedience first. You can always tell when an Obedience dog is doing Rally because the heeling is just SO much better.

Personally, taking classes in three different sports at the same time would be too much for me as a human. One of my dogs would probably be fine with it, the other would shut down at some point.


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## diane0905

ArkansasGold said:


> I think the answer to this really depends on your personal goals. Do you want to have higher scores in Rally or Obedience in the short term? Are you just going for titles and not necessarily high scores?
> 
> The thing about Rally - and don’t get me wrong, I love Rally - is that it can be detrimental to your performance in Obedience. Rally’s loose heal position requirements, constant talking, and easier scoring can cause you issues down the road in Obedience. This I know from personal experience. Unless you hold yourself to the same standard re: heel position and how much you talk. The most successful Rally teams that I have personally seen are usually trained and/or titled in Obedience first. You can always tell when an Obedience dog is doing Rally because the heeling is just SO much better.
> 
> Personally, taking classes in three different sports at the same time would be too much for me as a human. One of my dogs would probably be fine with it, the other would shut down at some point.


I was mostly just checking each out because I'm new to all of it. In my unexperienced head I was thinking of rally somewhere to learn first/get rally novice/ and then moving on to obedience. From what very little I've done, and from how i feel about the trainers I'm working with, I like obedience and agility the most. I would definitely prefer higher scores if we title, not so much for the scoring in and of itself, but just in the thought pattern of if we're going to do something I want to do it right. So, definitely no to more titles with scores that qualify, but aren't our best effort. I like the crispness of obedience and when I practice rally and am trying to cajole Logan into doing what I want him to do, I find that frustrating because I want him to be trained well enough -- my job -- to do it without all of that. I'm not knocking anything about rally as I've watched people doing it and think it looks fun. It makes sense to me more success in rally is found in dogs who are already trained for obedience -- who have heel in place -- who don't need all the interaction anymore.

Thank you. You helped me think this out more.


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## ArkansasGold

You’re welcome Diane! Truly, there is no rush for you to train all of these things at once. If you focus on obedience now and the individual skills you need for that, you will have 80%+ of what you need for Rally later. Keep having fun with your dog and trying new things!


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## Megora

diane0905 said:


> I was mostly just checking each out because I'm new to all of it. In my unexperienced head I was thinking of rally somewhere to learn first/get rally novice/ and then moving on to obedience. From what very little I've done, and from how i feel about the trainers I'm working with, I like obedience and agility the most. I would definitely prefer higher scores if we title, not so much for the scoring in and of itself, but just in the thought pattern of if we're going to do something I want to do it right. So, definitely no to more titles with scores that qualify, but aren't our best effort. I like the crispness of obedience and when I practice rally and am trying to cajole Logan into doing what I want him to do, I find that frustrating because I want him to be trained well enough -- my job -- to do it without all of that. I'm not knocking anything about rally as I've watched people doing it and think it looks fun. It makes sense to me more success in rally is found in dogs who are already trained for obedience -- who have heel in place -- who don't need all the interaction anymore..


Ages ago when rally-O was first introduced - the impression I had was it was something to do with old retired dogs and something to do with very green inexperienced dogs. The exercises were basically official recognition of the kitchen doodles we all trained for obedience - and a chance to get scored on those. The pivots, side steps, position changes, etc. 

I think there was initially a lot of confusion about what rally "was" for a lot of people - especially as AKC and/or clubs treated it as something separate from obedience. Biggest pet peeve I have is not getting a discount when entering rally at a big show where I'm also entering obedience and/or conformation. Getting those discounts helps encourage you to enter 3 different events at a big show - definitely! 

Other issue is one that I've expressed already and will again and again... the courses are too small for golden retrievers and most big dogs at most trials. It's more stop and go if you have a bigger dog with a bigger stride than if you have a toy breed. 

Anyway - if you have never competed in any obedience sport yet and you are really green.... do rally for starters. It gets your feet in the ring and the judging is slightly different to allow people to be a little more relaxed and informal while working with their dogs. 

But train for regular obedience separately. The handling skills are a little bit more formal, although I want you to keep in mind that judges are a lot nicer if you are Novice A. They want you to qualify as much as you want to qualify.


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## diane0905

Another heeling question:

We are still working on heeling and will be for a while I'm sure.

I've noticed when we are in obedience class, and when I have Logan on his 4ft. lead heeling, he lags when we do an about turn. If, however, I heel with him off leash he not only seems more enthusiastic, but he stays right with me on the about turn. I imagine it must have something to do with my leash handling?


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## ArkansasGold

diane0905 said:


> Another heeling question:
> 
> We are still working on heeling and will be for a while I'm sure.
> 
> I've noticed when we are in obedience class, and when I have Logan on his 4ft. lead heeling, he lags when we do an about turn. If, however, I heel with him off leash he not only seems more enthusiastic, but he stays right with me on the about turn. I imagine it must have something to do with my leash handling?


Without being able to see this happening, I am going to guess that you have reinforced heel position better off lead than on lead. So he is more motivated off lead than on lead because he gets more treats. Both situations need to be reinforced equally.


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## Megora

Might be where your hand/shoulder is when off leash vs where they are when on leash.

Might not get the same results when you are "conscious" of what you are doing on camera, but might be worth setting up a camera or having somebody record for you so you can see what you are doing.

I personally have gotten lagging because I quirk my shoulder and look back to where my dog is - which pushes him further back.


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## diane0905

Megora said:


> Might be where your hand/shoulder is when off leash vs where they are when on leash.
> 
> Might not get the same results when you are "conscious" of what you are doing on camera, but might be worth setting up a camera or having somebody record for you so you can see what you are doing.
> 
> I personally have gotten lagging because I quirk my shoulder and look back to where my dog is - which pushes him further back.


For quite a while I've been turning in towards him to see what he is doing, so my shoulders were turned in his direction. I know this because the obedience class lady hollered, "Diane, the mirrors are there for a reason! He's paying attention to what your body is doing and that has him out of position!" She also was really getting after me to make sure I start turning my shoulder/looking in the opposite mirror the minute I plant my right foot and begin the turn. She said Logan will do his part if I do mine -- it's a 50/50 partnership. 🤪 I think he's doing better than I am. lol

Maybe I should just pretend the leash isn't there to get my body motion in sync with what I do when he is off leash.

I will record it next training session so I can see what I'm doing differently with and without a leash.

Thank you!


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## diane0905

ArkansasGold said:


> Without being able to see this happening, I am going to guess that you have reinforced heel position better off lead than on lead. So he is more motivated off lead than on lead because he gets more treats. Both situations need to be reinforced equally.


Thank you! I've mostly heeled with him on lead because I know I have to for novice. I just thought I'd go outside and see how he did off lead because I was thinking about the lagging. I think it's me doing something funky. Plus, I also think he is generally much more animated off lead. He'd prefer to be 100% free all the time.

I will pay attention though and make sure I'm making the experiences the same.


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## AmberSunrise

I was just reading that Connie Cleveland has a subscription based website that is currently open for enrollment. 

Obedience Road. I think it's like 30$ a month. Might be worth it if you like her style.


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## diane0905

AmberSunrise said:


> I was just reading that Connie Cleveland has a subscription based website that is currently open for enrollment.
> 
> Obedience Road. I think it's like 30$ a month. Might be worth it if you like her style.


Thank you! I just signed up for it a couple of days ago. It is so helpful. I'm more of a visual learner and her demonstration videos work great for me. I can watch and re-watch as many times I need to if we struggle with a particular skill. I like Connie Cleveland's style of teaching -- she's matter of fact and to the point. I'm taking classes at the school she started -- Dog Trainer's Workshop. We finished six weeks (missed the first two classes) of competition obedience training and get onto the next eight weeks of classes in a week.


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## AmberSunrise

Glad she's a good fit for you


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