# Bentley got kicked out of AKC



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

At least he's still got that face! I'm sort of confused about why they'd take away his AKC registration because I don't know who Sampson is. Is he not a GR?


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Good grief...paperless. Well, at least he is not homeless, or loveless, or....


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

ArchersMom said:


> At least he's still got that face! I'm sort of confused about why they'd take away his AKC registration because I don't know who Sampson is. Is he not a GR?


It's not about him not being Golden, the dispute is over which Golden is hid grandpa. Apparently that dispute trickles down the entire line. It's not at all surprising to me because she has a LOT of Goldens in a VERY small place so I'm sure there's hanky panky going on more than she knows. ***Puppmill**

I love my lil dufus papers or paperless. I dropped him on his head too many times as a pup to expect blue ribbons


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bentleysmom said:


> It's not about him not being Golden, the dispute is over which Golden is hid grandpa. Apparently that dispute trickles down the entire line. It's not at all surprising to me because she has a LOT of Goldens in a VERY small place so I'm sure there's hanky panky going on more than she knows. ***Puppmill**
> 
> I love my lil dufus papers or paperless. I dropped him on his head too many times as a pup to expect blue ribbons


Ahh. Poor guy!  He's got love though, and that's all he needs. I register mine, even though there really isn't any reason to. I'll never breed mine nor enter them into competition, but it's just fun to have the papers.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

With or without papers, he's still the exact same loveable, handsome sweet boy he always was, as you well know.  He don't need no stinkin' papers, if he does he can have Jordan's !!! Hopefully this will make someone look into this shady breeder !


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> She said it doesn't effect us unless Bentley was to win a big blue 1st place ribbon (we all know that's not going to happen


 Actually this is incorrect. 

Because Bentley doesn't have AKC registration, you would not be able to enter him in any AKC events. I believe the first time you show a dog they verify the numbers before even accepting your entry. 

If you ever get into the position (I know doing official stuff with him is the last thing on your mind right now - and all my thoughts and prayers are with you during this time) - you could apply for a PAL registration so you could enter him in stuff. 

I hope she's giving you some money back. Probably an in-your-dreams scenario, but....


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Sounds more like a punishment for a careless breeder. For a pet, papers don't really mean much. We have Penny and Maggie's but they're just filed away. The question that I would be nosy enough to want to know is if they've restricted her in registering future litters.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

ArchersMom said:


> At least he's still got that face! I'm sort of confused about why they'd take away his AKC registration because I don't know who Sampson is. Is he not a GR?


It has to do with this little thing called fraud. 
The breeder was mis-representing the litter. There could be a huge economic impact here for the breeders involved, lawsuits, and possibly criminal charges.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> It has to do with this little thing called fraud.
> The breeder was mis-representing the litter. There could be a huge economic impact here for the breeders involved, lawsuits, and possibly criminal charges.


Well I'm glad to hear that! I have been trying since July 2012 to shutdown this puppymill with no success. It's out in the boonies and the inspector tells me she complies with all regulations when I know for a fact she does not because I have a copy of the regs.
Not one person in this state has been willing to even go take a look at the poop filled yard where they're kept. 

Maybe with this info gas will be thrown on my fire :crossfing


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> It has to do with this little thing called fraud.
> The breeder was mis-representing the litter. There could be a huge economic impact here for the breeders involved, lawsuits, and possibly criminal charges.


I hope there is major backlash for this breeder.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Well it's kinda like going to the car dealer and paying for a Rolls Royce, getting paperwork that says it's a Rolls Royce, and then finding out later from your mechanic that it's really an old Chevy with some plastic trim and nameplates stuck on it. It's not what you paid for.

If it can be shown that the breeder intentionally falsified the paperwork, things could get real ugly real fast for the breeder. At minimum, they should be paying for all of the DNA testing and correcting the paperwork, for their own dogs and their progeny.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I just looked at her website. Since I started telling all these agencies that she even has poop pics on her website, I see now she has removed all of them except one. Bentleys dad, Dakota's pic still shows poop. I also see a few dogs that look like they're mixed with something?? 

Swampcollie: you are exactly right. I didn't know then what I know now but, I know I paid for a Pinto and walked away with a Bentley 


Here's the website... http://jennyandclairesretrievers.weebly.com/


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Isn't there a very uppity car called a Bentley?

And even if he's paperless, he still has a crown - Prince Bentley of Broadway, owned by Princess Ky.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Well it's kinda like going to the car dealer and paying for a Rolls Royce, getting paperwork that says it's a Rolls Royce, and then finding out later from your mechanic that it's really an old Chevy with some plastic trim and nameplates stuck on it. It's not what you paid for.
> 
> If it can be shown that the breeder intentionally falsified the paperwork, things could get real ugly real fast for the breeder.* At minimum, they should be paying for all of the DNA testing and correcting the paperwork, for their own dogs and their progeny.*



That includes Bentley.

He's still the same dog you love. This doesn't change that and you've got plenty of other more important things to worry about. But if you bought Bentley on a contract that represented him as AKC registered and having a specific pedigree you have a claim against the breeder for misrepresentation. You could write her a letter attaching a copy of the AKC letter, referencing your contract and saying that you expect her to rectify the AKC registration and provide you a copy of the accurate pedigree or refund you X$ (N%) of the purchase price. That seems reasonable to me. If you feel up to it you could get even more aggressive about it.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

So does the AKC refund your registration fee?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I dunno, you're a very gracious person but I'd be pissed. Even if you never plan on getting any of those blue ribbons, there are reasons to know and record Bentley's heritage. For one thing, it's important to know about and be able to research health issues. Also, there's the fact that you actually paid (even at Pinto prices) for an AKC registerable dog. Joyce, you're a much nicer person than I am, but I'd be raising holy hell about this and demanding (1) some money, and (2) that both Bentley's breeder and his grandsire's breeder immediately make all efforts to identify the grandsire.

This is baloney. Maybe it's an "oops" breeding, maybe not. But for sure it's horrible breeding practices, it's deceit, it's misrepresentation, and it's a breach of contract. I'd be all up in their business every way I could. But then, I'm an attorney and you're nice.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Max's Dad said:


> So does the AKC refund your registration fee?


Nope! 
Those costs are the breeders responsibility to resolve.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Dana you crack me up. My son is in process of moving in & I let him read your post. He said "She sounds very smart, listen to her!!" 

So does anyone know how this "mistake" could have been discovered? For the life of me I just can't understand how you would discover that you needed a DNA test to start with??


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Bentleysmom said:


> Dana you crack me up. My son is in process of moving in & I let him read your post. He said "She sounds very smart, listen to her!!"
> 
> So does anyone know how this "mistake" could have been discovered? For the life of me I just can't understand how you would discover that you needed a DNA test to start with??


It usually starts with a complaint, or an AKC inspection.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Sounds more like a punishment for a careless breeder. For a pet, papers don't really mean much. We have Penny and Maggie's but they're just filed away. The question that I would be nosy enough to want to know is if they've restricted her in registering future litters.


My thoughts exactly! 

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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> It has to do with this little thing called fraud.
> The breeder was mis-representing the litter. There could be a huge economic impact here for the breeders involved, lawsuits, and possibly criminal charges.


Well I think THAT'S a little thing called AWESOME. Maybe karma does exist. 

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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> It usually starts with a complaint, or an AKC inspection.


So maybe you had more of an influence than you thought!


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Well, as Bentley is going through so much lately, I'm voting that you don't tell him. Many dogs go through their lives not having to deal with the trauma of having their existence upended by questions about who their real parents are (er, grandparents in this case). It's kind of like you thinking you were royalty from Denmark and then learning you were closer kin to the Viking raiders. You simply don't know what this would do for his self-esteem.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Bentleysmom said:


> So does anyone know how this "mistake" could have been discovered? For the life of me I just can't understand how you would discover that you needed a DNA test to start with??


I'm sorry you are in the middle of a whose your daddy (or grand-daddy) soap opera, but I thought I'd give you some info on how this possibly came about. I haven't read all the thread so forgive me if I'm repeating someone. If any of Bentley's littermates get titles, even a simple CGC, this could happen. The AKC has started sending out letters and emails offering a special "titleholders" DNA discount. I got one after Yogi passed his CGC and got his paperwork. AKC offered us the "opportunity" to get Yogi's AKC at a "special" price as a result of his "achievement". I sent it to my breeder because it seemed odd to me and she said just ignore it. Yogi doesn't need DNA testing from the AKC since they don't do health research with it at all. I guess a lot of pet people think it's "cool" to have a DNA profile and I guess it could help prove ownership if the dog is stolen or lost, but Yogi is chipped and I don't need a DNA profile that doesn't benefit the breed through health research. Since many male sires are DNA tested per AKC rules it would be easy to take an offspring's DNA taken from this "titleholders discount" and do a little detective work to insure the breeder is reporting pedigree correctly. I'm not saying this happened in Bentley's case, but it conceivably could have happened.


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

Ya know Joyce Bentley is a beautifull Golden & if he can't be AKC I don't see why that would matter to people like you & I. Jack is able to get his AKC but I have no intention of showing him( even if that was possible LOL he's more hard headed than BB) or breeding Sweetie came from at best a puppymill but their my Goldens & the only thing I'd use this info for is to shut your so called "breeder" down.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone, now I understand how it could have been discovered. I don't need AKC papers at all but my hopes are soaring now that maybe with this info I can get it closed down.
This is Bentley's mom & her brand new pups. I can't stand how sad she is!!!!


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## Cookie's Mom (Oct 14, 2013)

She does look sad. Makes me want to go save her! Or at least give her a big hug. 


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

That picture reminds me so much of my foster, Luna. So sad!! She was used for breeding BYBs too. Poor babies.


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## Ruby13 (Dec 28, 2013)

I wholeheartedly agree that Bentley is a beautiful boy!

After looking at the breeders website, I also agree that there are a couple of dogs pictured that do not appear to be full blooded Goldens, and this may have brought attention to her, as well. (Not that it matters, _unless _you are selling them as pure Goldens, in which case it's fraud.)


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Oh goodness that face! He is a doll. Papers or no papers. Jago was a Pomeranian and I never sent his papers in. So he was paperless also lol. They are still awesome !! 


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## Mr. Fuzzyface (Dec 20, 2009)

Bentley sure is a gorgeous pup, regardless of his lineage issue! Out of curiosity, I went to the breeder's website. I am amazed that a so-called breeder of golden retrievers can't spell "retrievers" or "puppies" correctly throughout most of her website. 

Give Bentley some extra hugs!


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone. Maybe things are falling into place like they were supposed to. It's been over a year & a half that I've been trying to shut her down & I'm running out of options.
Suddenly I find out this new info at the same time that my son is moving in to give me some free time. hhmm coincidence or fate?

As for the misspellings on the website, I'm not sure but I believe it's her granddaughter that put that together because I know the breeder doesn't use a PC. There wasn't a website when I got Bentley.

I was also recently given the name of a person that's putting something together to try to fight against puppymills in Detroit so she may have more ideas for me too. 

It was probably wrong to have Bentley AKC registered anyway since he's half Golden & half Akita. At least according to Ky


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## KathyL (Jul 6, 2011)

I just had to read this thread to see what you and your "rift-raft" are up to now! What next, hey? I've had two pups that were AKC registered but it's been a long time so things must have changed and are more sophisticated now. That picture of Bentley's Mom is so sad, almost as if she knows she is part of a scam and is embarrassed. Bentley is still beautiful and special. That "breeder" really needs some sort of class action lawsuit against her. Do you have a Dept. of Consumer Protection or Better Business Bureau? She needs to be taken down a notch.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

KathyL said:


> I just had to read this thread to see what you and your "rift-raft" are up to now! What next, hey? I've had two pups that were AKC registered but it's been a long time so things must have changed and are more sophisticated now. That picture of Bentley's Mom is so sad, almost as if she knows she is part of a scam and is embarrassed. Bentley is still beautiful and special. That "breeder" really needs some sort of class action lawsuit against her. *Do you have a Dept. of Consumer Protection or Better Business Bureau?* She needs to be taken down a notch.


All of the above. I have 3 big folders full of people I have talked to since I started this. It's always pass the buck. I haven't had any time to work on it lately but with Jason here now I'm getting back on the horse. The pic of Callie Ann is above my monitor and it will keep me trudging through the brick walls!


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Give her holy heck!

How about I send B some envelopes? They are much better than papers!

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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I was going to suggest that a litter mate was the reason for the DNA test also. Have you told AKC about the conditions at the puppy farm/mill? I know they don't investigate mills so much, but perhaps this is the right moment in time to tell them. If she can't sell registrable dogs, she will be out a lot of money...Glad to see you outraged and on the warpath!


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Wow. I feel sick to my stomach after looking at that website. Sick! Those poor dogs. I can't believe this goes on. Those "puppy's" are laying on boards with paint chipping off... That's awful. The poop with the poor obese daddy  those dogs all look so sad. This is sick. So glad Bentley has such a good momma now. He got so lucky 


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Bentleysmom said:


> All of the above. I have 3 big folders full of people I have talked to since I started this. It's always pass the buck. I haven't had any time to work on it lately but with Jason here now I'm getting back on the horse. The pic of Callie Ann is above my monitor and it will keep me trudging through the brick walls!


You go girl and I say this with all honesty, if I can do anything at all to help let me know. I can make calls or harass her if need be lol!!! Not the harass part :-/ but I can make calls or something if need be. 


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

If this doesnt bankrupt her, I suspect she will just turn to another registry that simply requires a few pictures to be 'papered'...and keep on keepin' on...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

LibertyME said:


> If this doesnt bankrupt her, I suspect she will just turn to another registry that simply requires a few pictures to be 'papered'...and keep on keepin' on...


I'm afraid so. We have already had people on here who have confused ACA registration with AKC registration  There are unfortunately a number of those registries around.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

LibertyME said:


> If this doesn't bankrupt her, I suspect she will just turn to another registry that simply requires a few pictures to be 'papered'...and keep on keepin' on...


Well, yes and no. She can jump to another registry with her dogs for future litters, but that doesn't deal with the existing problems. She's going to have to sort the existing mess out or the local Sheriff may be knocking on her door.


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## ChasingChase (Feb 2, 2013)

That picture of Bentley's mom is so sad. She looks sick or something and so sad! It's actually heart breaking. How old are his parents? I see his dad has a sugar face but I know that could happen young sometimes. 


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Dakota (dad) turned 6 in March. Callie (mom) turned 3 in Jan. Bentley was born July 2012 so his mom was just a baby too as far as I'm concerned. I don't know what age they normally start breeding but I know how immature Bentley is at a year and a half. 

I made some calls today and I'm disappointed as usual but that just lit my fire even more. Apparently AKC is only concerned with certain things and puppy mill isn't one of them. Now I have to wait and "give her a fair chance to straighten out what could possibly be a simple bookkeeping error" ggggrrrr. No. It's not a bookkeeping error.

I did get an interesting lead today though so tomorrow I'll be back at it. With Jason moving in the house is something of a 3 ring circus right now but hopefully we'll get t together quickly.


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

Bentleysmom said:


> Thanks everyone, now I understand how it could have been discovered. I don't need AKC papers at all but my hopes are soaring now that maybe with this info I can get it closed down.
> This is Bentley's mom & her brand new pups. I can't stand how sad she is!!!!


 That photo breaks my heart.

NewfieMom


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

The way I look at it is that Michael Jordan got cut by his high school coach and Sir Issac Newton was thrown out of an art school until his uncle paid for him to go to the Trinity science college.
Bentley is one terrific pup that has brought a lot of love AND laughter to this forum.
That's a price that no 3 letter organization can dampen.


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## KathyL (Jul 6, 2011)

OMG! I just went and looked at her website. It's like a concentration camp for dogs. 
Those dogs are jumping up against that fence like trying to get out, or maybe someone is coming to fill the trough of food and water. Her prices are less than I paid for my last pup and that was in 1993. She is still saying AKC so technically that's untrue right? She's a bottom feeder.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Being the p.r. person that I am. )), I love a good muck raking story when I see one. I haven't kept up with Detroit media for many years, but I did a little poking around and found this woman: Ruth Spencer - weekdays at 4 and weeknights at 5:30 p.m.; also consumer reporter who is at WDIV TV. Perhaps a story about "breeders" who rip off their customers is in order, hmmmm? 

Ruth To The Rescue - [email protected]
To reach Ruth to the Rescue, the Local 4 Defenders investigative team, or leave a message for the Local 4 programming department, please call 313-962-WDIV (313-962-9348).


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

That picture of her,says it all,she is abused, that poor dog.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Papers or no papers Bentley is handsome, charming, and loved by many.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Thank you Kathleen for taking the time to look that up, unfortunately I have left many, many messages for Ruth and the other "problem solvers" in our area. Not one has ever returned my call. 

I was just on the other thread about this breeder http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/choosing-golden-retriever-breeder-puppy/174850-hillsdale-mi-breeder-jennyandclairesretrievers.html and looking at the xrays of Sharons pup put me into a tailspin.

I can see how these puppymills get away with doing this. They make lots of money and nobody will lift a finger to stop them. I have a copy of the state regulations and she is in direct violation but when I speak to the brainiac in charge of inspecting the kennels in her area he is convinced that she is "a very responsible, caring breeder and she passes inspection every year.

AKC couldn't care less about how puppies are bred, raised, taken care of. That falls into the category of "not their problem". Their only problem is to get you to write them a check. Job done. gggrr

I am thankful that I found Bentley and had no idea what to look for in a breeder. I love BB with all my heart and I think I found him so that I can do something to save other puppymill dogs. After I get this one shut down, and I will, then I will be moving on to other puppy mills in this state.
So if you own a puppymill in Michigan, I'm coming for you. It may take me sometime to get to you but I'll be there. I promise.


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Go Joyce! :You_Rock_


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Unfortunately the AKC is only a registry, that is why they don't care.

Here is Missouri they have been trying to make laws to stop puppy mills. Here a breeder ( and that is what they all call themselves ) is not considered a puppy mill until they have over 50 dogs! Can you imagine that?


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

cubbysan said:


> Unfortunately the AKC is only a registry, that is why they don't care.
> 
> Here is Missouri they have been trying to make laws to stop puppy mills. Here a breeder ( and that is what they all call themselves ) i*s not considered a puppy mill until they have over 50 dogs! Can you imagine that*?


OMW! No I can't imagine that! I guess I should be counting my blessings then. It's an uphill climb but I'll get there. I can't wait for the day when Bentleys mom is able to smile, I'm not sure she ever has


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Bentleysmom said:


> Thank you Kathleen for taking the time to look that up, unfortunately I have left many, many messages for Ruth and the other "problem solvers" in our area. Not one has ever returned my call.


Again - the problem is you have to consider the state that we live in. 

You look at pictures of that breeder and they are just a backyard breeder. They provide shelter for the dogs. The dogs are fed and apparently cared for within the law. 

It's not against the law for dogs to be kept with poop in their bedding area (and considering puppies are poop factories, it's not surprising that you have poop in puppy pictures, especially since they are not in the house so there is less motivation on the backyard breeder's part to keep the dogs clean). 

It is not against the law to keep dogs in barns or kennel areas outside the home.

It is not against the law to not socialize or... you know, love your dogs. 

That's the problem with this situation - and why you are facing an uphill fight getting people to pay attention to this particular breeder. Especially if she's an old lady with a family. 

Ruth Spencer (I haven't watched network tv in ages - wow her name brings back many pre-cable memories.... !) - and many other people who focus on the types of actual ABUSE cases in and around Detroit are probably going to be thinking that that old lady out in Hillsdale is probably taking good care of her dogs by comparison.  And that's the fact of the matter. You have so many abuse cases that came to a head this winter - especially with the cold. People going out of town and leaving their dogs to freeze to death in their backyards. 

There's just a lot of bad stuff out there. 

And to add to that - Hillsdale is one of those areas where you have kill shelters. I'm sure that animal shelter there is not overly eager to go in and prosecute somebody for being a cwappy breeder who raises and keeps her dogs similar to how other people in that area keep goats. 

The rest is - AKC is not an organization that can swoop in and prosecute people for neglect. They can and probably will make this woman jump through hoops in order to get litters registered in the future - on the basis that she got caught intentionally or not falsifying her litter information. 

I'm venting here - because I do feel the same way as everyone here that dogs should not be kept this way. And I see some similarities (but a bigger scale) between this woman and the backyard breeder we purchased our first golden from. And that was another situation where these dogs were kept by people who left the dogs outside all the time.... right down to spring puppies being born and litters kept beneath the front porch. 

We spoil our dogs here, but you have people out there who think they are giving their dogs a great life when they are outdoor dogs and go to the vet every year like clockwork to get maggots taken out of their coats. 

^ I didn't think that was that common, but talking to friends who worked at vets.... this is VERY common, particularly with those outdoor dogs here in Michigan. 

And you know what - also be aware that there are many breeders in this state who keep the dogs in the house.... but they are all in crates and only cycled in and out when it's time to go outside for potty or when it's time to be bred. By comparison, I'll bet those golden retrievers kept like goats have a better life. <- And that's the sickening thing about all this.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Bentleysmom said:


> Thank you Kathleen for taking the time to look that up, unfortunately I have left many, many messages for Ruth and the other "problem solvers" in our area. Not one has ever returned my call.
> 
> I was just on the other thread about this breeder http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/choosing-golden-retriever-breeder-puppy/174850-hillsdale-mi-breeder-jennyandclairesretrievers.html and looking at the xrays of Sharons pup put me into a tailspin.
> 
> ...


I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever register any of my future goldens after realizing that the AKC really doesn't do anything. If they are going to promote breed standards during the Westminster Kennel Club and other events, then they need to have guidelines and expectations for breeders. Saying that, however, would increase the cost of all purebred dogs, which I believe is some of the problem with backyard breeders right now. They know not everyone can pay over $1,000 for a golden, so they breed their family golden and sell off the pups for $200 - $400. Seeing how "easy" that was, they continue the process over and over. I've paid $50, $200, and $400 for my goldens. The $50 and $200 were backyard breeders, but took good care of their goldens. Josie was $400, but deeply discounted due to her age and the economy, but came from a good breeder. She had just had a new kennel built for her goldens and I think it cost more than my house!  To be honest with you, it would be very hard for me to spend $1000 or more on a dog. Not because they are not worth it, but because that doesn't fit well into my income level. 

I love watching Westminster, but rethinking that for next year. I'm also very glad I've never given the AKC any more then registration fees. 

I truly am sorry for all of you who are going through health issues with your goldens, especially hip dysplasia.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

abradshaw71 said:


> I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever register any of my future goldens after realizing that the AKC really doesn't do anything. If they are going to promote breed standards during the Westminster Kennel Club and other events, then they need to have guidelines and expectations for breeders.


The AKC is a registry. The club of interest is GRCA. Go on the Golden Retriever Club of America website, and you will see the COE. There is no requirement to follow that COE. But that tends to be the standard, as well as guidelines which people need to be keeping in mind as they look for their next puppy. Do not put your money in the pockets of people who are... basically cwappy breeders. 

Going through the breed referrals generally is the best way to help weed out the bad breeders who otherwise do not need to be held accountable for what they breed and how they care for their dogs. 

Good breeders are not going to be discounting the price of puppies in order to sell them. That's something that backyard breeder did when we purchased our first golden. They were selling boys for $400 and girls for $500. They had 12 week old puppies still that they were trying to get rid of of, so they dropped the price down to $200 for the boys. Which actually happens with Christmas trees if you wait long enough. If you buy one in November, you pay through the nose. Buy one the week before Christmas and you pay 1/2 off or more. 

Why would you buy from a breeder who sells puppies the way tree farm people sell Christmas trees?  

And how big a kennel a breeder has - doesn't make them a good breeder. It probably just means they are a good businessman. They probably put the sale of the puppies back into their business as an investment to be paid off with the sales of more puppies.

Breeders like THIS ONE exist because people waffle about spending more money on an actual good breeder. If people stopped buying puppies from these people, sooner or later they will go on to other breeds. Which generally happens.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Megora said:


> The AKC is a registry. The club of interest is GRCA. Go on the Golden Retriever Club of America website, and you will see the COE. There is no requirement to follow that COE. But that tends to be the standard, as well as guidelines which people need to be keeping in mind as they look for their next puppy. Do not put your money in the pockets of people who are... basically cwappy breeders.
> 
> Going through the breed referrals generally is the best way to help weed out the bad breeders who otherwise do not need to be held accountable for what they breed and how they care for their dogs.
> 
> ...


I trust the breeder I got Josie from and would not hesitate to purchase a future golden from her. When Josie had her first vet checkup after coming home with me, the vet said Josie was one of the most sound goldens she had seen in a very long time and her health for the past three years has been great proof of that. 

As for Christmas trees, I come from an area in Michigan that has one of the largest Christmas tree producers in the state. $25 for an 8 foot Douglas Fir the Sunday after Thanksgiving works very well for me.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

abradshaw71 said:


> I trust the breeder I got Josie from and would not hesitate to purchase a future golden from her. When Josie had her first vet checkup after coming home with me, the vet said Josie was one of the most sound goldens she had seen in a very long time and her health for the past three years has been great proof of that.


But does this breeder do everything as far as the COE - minimally? Meaning full clearances....? 

What does this breeder do which guarantees the health of the puppies she produces? 

What does this breeder do which guarantees the conformation, functionality, and temperament of the puppies which she produces? 

Does she just buy dogs to breed, or does she have maybe 1-2 dogs which she's shown or competed with - and does she only select specific dogs to breed? Or is she just breeding whatever she has on hand? 

These are things which set good breeders apart from backyard breeders. 

As long as people do not differentiate or ask for MORE from breeders, then basically you are paving the way for people like this specific breeder in this thread. Because the more you bicker about breeder who do charge more because they SPEND MORE on raising dogs and breeding them, the more you legitimize for other people to buy puppies from backyard breeders.

And Michigan has a lot of backyard breeders who breed anything to anything because one thing they know very well is that people like golden puppies and will buy them. My Jacksipants has a bad thyroid, hip dysplasia, anxiety, and so on.... and he's had LOTS of offers from people looking for a pretty stud to breed their females to. With Jacks they see a pretty boy who is very active, healthy, and in every way an ideal golden. And Bertie is receiving propositions as well too - regardless of his age. LOL. 

I am of that "in-between" generation, where my parents always thought that the stamp of quality was the fact a dog was registered with the AKC. We knew absolutely nothing of breed standard or breed quality. We learned the hard way, unfortunately. And that was with our first golden who got a clean bill of health every year until he was 6. I thankfully was exposed to a better time where people DID STUFF with their dogs and took pride in it. And it meant something having a purebred dog who had papers. Basically at that time, all dog shows were only purebred dogs - including agility. And if your puppy didn't come with papers, then you couldn't anything with that puppy at AKC shows. I had very close friends whose adopted dogs were genius in obedience, but they basically were locked out because those dogs had not been born with papers. 

The AKC did the nice thing and opened the door with PAL registration, but unfortunately at the same time - they also gave a certain nod towards bad breeders and backyard breeders as far covering their mistakes for people who want to compete with their dogs or have some kind of registration with their dogs.

Funny thing to add about our first golden.  We did not know how to read pedigrees when we bought him and had him. It was until like 20 years later that I pulled out his pedigree and was looking at it that I just about fell over. Turns out that he came from a father daughter breeding - and we had no clue. I don't even think any of us LOOKED at the pedigree beyond seeing further back he had Topbrass and dogs like that behind him. <- And yes, this dog received propositions during his life as well. We always said NO because even then we were just like "that's so trailer park!" And we knew our dog had cataracts and our vet told us it was very hereditary. But yes, if we wanted to - we could have bred him.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Megora said:


> But does this breeder do everything as far as the COE - minimally? Meaning full clearances....?
> 
> What does this breeder do which guarantees the health of the puppies she produces?
> 
> ...


Wow! Didn't think I was bickering and really...you think I want backyard breeders to be successful? That's uncalled for. 

Please don't judge me because I didn't spend thousands of dollars purchasing my golden. If people can afford that much for a puppy, that is great. I think we all want the same thing; a puppy to bring into our home to spend time with, love, and have an amazing companion. My uncle spent $50 on my first golden as a Christmas present for me in 1984. I was fortunate enough to have Abigail for almost 14 years, in which during that time, she had a family who loved her unconditionally and gave her an amazing life. Emma was $200. No, I didn't do my homework. I was young and eager to get a golden puppy on my own. I bought from a backyard breeder who put an ad in the local paper. I didn't know any better at that point. But I don't regret it for one second. I gave her a wonderful life. I did a little more homework with Josie. I made sure the clearances were there, but the price was also an issue for me at that point. My heart was broken from losing Emma and I hated my empty house, so excuse me for being lonely. And, at this point, I don't know why I'm explaining any of this to you because you obviously think I'm a horrible person.

I will never own a show dog, nor do I want to. If anything, I would rather have a golden that enjoys retrieving and hunting, galloping in a field, going for hikes and long walks, being a muddy mess and loves her family. 

Time to leave this forum. Was finding lots of great people on here, but I don't need this from someone that doesn't know me. 

Good luck Bentleysmom. I hope you are able to help the goldens in Hillsdale.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

abradshaw71 said:


> Wow! Didn't think I was bickering and really...you think I want backyard breeders to be successful? That's uncalled for.
> 
> Please don't judge me because I didn't spend thousands of dollars purchasing my golden. If people can afford that much for a puppy, that is great. I think we all want the same thing; a puppy to bring into our home to spend time with, love, and have an amazing companion. My uncle spent $50 on my first golden as a Christmas present for me in 1984. I was fortunate enough to have Abigail for almost 14 years, in which during that time, she had a family who loved her unconditionally and gave her an amazing life. Emma was $200. No, I didn't do my homework. I was young and eager to get a golden puppy on my own. I bought from a backyard breeder who put an ad in the local paper. I didn't know any better at that point. But I don't regret it for one second. I gave her a wonderful life. I did a little more homework with Josie. I made sure the clearances were there, but the price was also an issue for me at that point. My heart was broken from losing Emma and I hated my empty house, so excuse me for being lonely. And, at this point, I don't know why I'm explaining any of this to you because you obviously think I'm a horrible person.
> 
> ...


Hi Abradshaw :wavey:

Megora wasn't trying to personally attack you. I know that sometimes on online forums it can be hard to interpret things. We're all really passionate about our goldens on here, especially correct breeding practices. She was just trying to bring up some points about what ethical breeding practices are based on the GRC COE. Not that you are supporting BYB. And none of us think BYB dogs are any less amazing or worthy or loveable, they are just as amazing as any show (or field or agility or other competition) dog. Step back and breathe, please don't leave the forum. No need to say anything mean about show dogs  <- this is meant in a light hearted way


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

abradshaw71 said:


> Wow! Didn't think I was bickering and really...you think I want backyard breeders to be successful? That's uncalled for.
> 
> Time to leave this forum. Was finding lots of great people on here, but I don't need this from someone that doesn't know me.
> 
> Good luck Bentleysmom. I hope you are able to help the goldens in Hillsdale.


Please stay.Kate wasn't really picking on you personally. Sometimes it can feel that way but it's not personal. They (we) try to get the facts in whenever possible in a thread and here's why.

Someone could be on the internet searching for something specific about a Golden or breeder or whatever and google will point them to this thread. It's important that the facts are laid out about BYB & good breeders because a lot of times people will only read the page that google landed them on and not the entire thread. I hope that made sense, I know what I'm trying to say but at the same time I'm on the phone 

Please stay with us.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Absolutely, Joyce. Thank you. 

I think a lot of people who support the AKC, support their local golden retriever clubs, and support the welfare of individual breeders who are doing everything possible to preserve and protect the breed - we have to speak up whenever it seems necessary, especially now. Like I said in my comment, it is very important that people differentiate between what some do well, and do not. 

And very powerful tools in cases like this one are communication and education.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Kate: as for your #55 post. I agree to a point. However we do have some, not many, but some regulations in this state that she has to follow. She's not doing it. She also sold "AKC" dogs but now they're no longer AKC so she has committed fraud.

Is being locked outside in the winter better than being kept in a tiny cage in the house? I need to buy a vowel because I sure can't answer that question, both scenarios make me crazy. 

At the moment all I can focus on is getting a better life for Bentleys parents and the rest of them in that kennel. I don't care who her friends are. Rules and regs are made for all of us to follow and she doesn't get to pick and choose.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Bentleysmom said:


> She also sold "AKC" dogs but now they're no longer AKC so she has committed fraud.


Unfortunately - she can probably argue she did not knowingly sell unpapered dogs and she apparently communicated the issue to you and the other owners.

It would be nice if this were the silver bullet, but I think what it will wind up doing is she will have to jump hoops to register litters. 



> Is being locked outside in the winter better than being kept in a tiny cage in the house? I need to buy a vowel because I sure can't answer that question, both scenarios make me crazy.


 They both are bad. But you know technically speaking - both are within the law. 

Out in the area where you live - you have people who hem slightly inside the law and that keeps them safe from having their dogs taken away. Especially if they are within the law one day, outside the law some other day... but generally within the law every time they get a visit. 

Hopefully speaking, people will google this breeder before buying a puppy from her. And they will find your threads on this forum. 

I'm just hoping they don't just go across the road to somebody else who is just as bad.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Yep Kate, that's my fear too. That's why I like that you put the facts out there because I don't want them to run to a different BYB.
Just for the record, the breeder didn't notify anyone that there was a problem. We received a letter from the AKC essentially kicking Bentley out. Bentley says it's ok, he's been kicked out of far better places


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Bentleysmom said:


> Yep Kate, that's my fear too. That's why I like that you put the facts out there because I don't want them to run to a different BYB.
> Just for the record, the breeder didn't notify anyone that there was a problem. We received a letter from the AKC essentially kicking Bentley out. Bentley says it's ok, he's been kicked out of far better places


Joyce, through this whole thread I am so happy to see that you still have your sense of humor. I especially liked your quote that you paid for a Pinto but got a Bentley.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

abradshaw71 said:


> Wow! Didn't think I was bickering and really...you think I want backyard breeders to be successful? That's uncalled for.
> 
> Please don't judge me because I didn't spend thousands of dollars purchasing my golden. If people can afford that much for a puppy, that is great. I think we all want the same thing; a puppy to bring into our home to spend time with, love, and have an amazing companion. My uncle spent $50 on my first golden as a Christmas present for me in 1984. I was fortunate enough to have Abigail for almost 14 years, in which during that time, she had a family who loved her unconditionally and gave her an amazing life. Emma was $200. No, I didn't do my homework. I was young and eager to get a golden puppy on my own. I bought from a backyard breeder who put an ad in the local paper. I didn't know any better at that point. But I don't regret it for one second. I gave her a wonderful life. I did a little more homework with Josie. I made sure the clearances were there, but the price was also an issue for me at that point. My heart was broken from losing Emma and I hated my empty house, so excuse me for being lonely. And, at this point, I don't know why I'm explaining any of this to you because you obviously think I'm a horrible person.
> 
> ...


Please do not leave this forum. Nobody was trying to say anything to offend you.

The breed of the golden retriever has so many issues that most of us get very passionate in trying to fix and improve this breed. The only way this is going to happen is through selective breeding and following the code of ethics. These posts are meant for educating. We value the life of goldens no matter where they came from, we just don't value the breeders that are doing it for all the wrong reasons, that are bringing dogs into this world that no longer look or act like goldens, or that have hereditary issues that they keep breeding into their lines. This is also where the importance of conformation shows, agility, obedience and field and hunt trials are important. It is a way of verifying that we are staying with the golden retriever standard, which can be lost within one or two generations of bad breeding.


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

Bentley, you don't need no stinkin' papers, buddy. You'll always be a superstar to me!!


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Danny, Bentley says thank you. In fact we're going to start our own club. The ADC (adorable dog cuties). All dogs welcome. No fees just lots of snuggles and smiles


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

A lot of people buy from byb , because they do not understand,why they should not.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

abradshaw71 said:


> I did a little more homework with Josie. I made sure the clearances were there,


As with others, not meaning in any way to pile on, but I think it's important to educate anyone else coming across these threads. Josie's breeder didn't do full clearances at least not on Josie's dam Windsong's Shimmering Gold who does not have a single clearance listed on offa.org. In fact she was born 22 Sept 2008 and had her first litter 5 Sep 2009. As for Josie's sire, he only has hips & elbows listed and his dam has zero clearances posted to offa.org. With at least one offspring of his having hip dysplasia, it would be too risky to pursue a litter in which there isn't a solid history (multiple generations of clearances).

I am happy that for you & more importantly that Josie got lucky with her health. As for someone who has a little girl who came from a poor excuse of breeder who didn't get so lucky (bi-lateral hip dysplasia, hypothyroid, incorrect temperament...) I can't not speak out against those breeders not doing everything in their power to stack the odds in the favor of the pups being produced as well as those failing to take the welfare of their own dogs being bred into account.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

At what age do good breeders start breeding their girl? Is just under a year and a half early?


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## Sharon Ann (Jan 25, 2014)

I tried to leave you a PM but the forum said I can't because I do not have enough posts - hmmmmmm.

When we called this breeder about Daisy's hip problem Jenny said the AKC rep had just been there. I pretty much blew this off as I figured it was "just talk". She refunded our money and now I will put it away to help pay for a THR (total hip replacement). We are not sure about the rest of the money - but Thank You Bentley's Mom for the info - I will check it out.

Maybe - just maybe - she was telling the truth and someone was out there from AKC checking the place out???


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

cubbysan said:


> Please do not leave this forum. Nobody was trying to say anything to offend you.
> 
> The breed of the golden retriever has so many issues that most of us get very passionate in trying to fix and improve this breed. The only way this is going to happen is through selective breeding and following the code of ethics. These posts are meant for educating. We value the life of goldens no matter where they came from, we just don't value the breeders that are doing it for all the wrong reasons, that are bringing dogs into this world that no longer look or act like goldens, or that have hereditary issues that they keep breeding into their lines. This is also where the importance of conformation shows, agility, obedience and field and hunt trials are important. It is a way of verifying that we are staying with the golden retriever standard, which can be lost within one or two generations of bad breeding.


Very exactly. And you realize that as it is the best "protection" which good breeders have for their puppies is limited registration - meaning that they are not welcoming just anybody to breed these dogs and there are fewer dogs slipping through the cracks and being bred for profit because the owners know they will have to somehow sell "unpapered" puppies. 

The more that people bash on AKC and talk down the value of registration and registering puppies, you are opening the door to more and more people feeling encouraged to breed without registration. There goes that level of protection for these dogs. And what it comes down to is more and more breeders being uber selective in how they place puppies in homes. People complain about filling out applications as it is....


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Sharon Ann said:


> I tried to leave you a PM but the forum said I can't because I do not have enough posts - hmmmmmm.
> 
> When we called this breeder about Daisy's hip problem Jenny said the AKC rep had just been there. I pretty much blew this off as I figured it was "just talk". She refunded our money and now I will put it away to help pay for a THR (total hip replacement). We are not sure about the rest of the money - but Thank You Bentley's Mom for the info - I will check it out.
> 
> Maybe - just maybe - she was telling the truth and someone was out there from AKC checking the place out???


I'm glad she refunded your money, that's a start but it sure doesn't help poor Daisy. As for the AKC being there, she was probably telling the truth but they are only there to go through her paper trail on lineage. At least that's my understanding from our convos. 
Sorry, I didn't notice your post count. I think you need 25 posts to be able to PM.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Bentleysmom said:


> At what age do good breeders start breeding their girl? Is just under a year and a half early?


Never before age two. They can not have final clearances before then, and you want them to be done growing before they are bred (that is just common sense I would hope).


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## Sharon Ann (Jan 25, 2014)

As soon as the check clears from this breeder have paperwork to send to AKC regarding Daisy's lineage and so on - including the paperwork confirming the need for THR from MSU. I want to make sure AKC knows that in this lineage there is major hereditary hip dysplasia. The breeder swears (?) that her dogs do not (she insisted on having the AKC registration back or no refund) and said that these same two dogs are expecting a litter - and that there are three litters due this Spring. She at first offered to replace our well loved Daisy, like she was a microwave or something so that is how I got the information.

Daisy is currently only 8 months old and on Rimadyl and Tramadol to control inflammation and pain. The vet is very careful with weight and doses. We have Pepcid on hand if there is the slightest fussiness over food but we have been very careful. She eats well and gets plenty of attention from us and from our older golden.

She can not have surgery until she is at least 12 months and full grown. We are thankful for Daisy's great temperament and disposition. She doesn't realize what she is going through and has had her hip pop out of the socket one more time since we last posted. Currently we are okay. We toe step and are careful.

Yes, this breeder is more than likely committing fraud on top of everything else that is just plain unethical and so terribly sad. Maybe sending all of this info to AKC won't accomplish anything but they need the lineage info if this is hereditary. It does sound like someone else has complained or they wouldn't be investigating other puppies heritage. One step at a time...


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Sharon Ann said:


> As soon as the check clears from this breeder have paperwork to send to AKC regarding Daisy's lineage and so on - including the paperwork confirming the need for THR from MSU. I want to make sure AKC knows that in this lineage there is major hereditary hip dysplasia. The breeder swears (?) that her dogs do not (she insisted on having the AKC registration back or no refund) and said that these same two dogs are expecting a litter - and that there are three litters due this Spring. She at first offered to replace our well loved Daisy, like she was a microwave or something so that is how I got the information.
> 
> Daisy is currently only 8 months old and on Rimadyl and Tramadol to control inflammation and pain. The vet is very careful with weight and doses. We have Pepcid on hand if there is the slightest fussiness over food but we have been very careful. She eats well and gets plenty of attention from us and from our older golden.
> 
> ...


I would highly recommend getting her hip info put into k9data and offa to hopefully warn people in the future. I can help you get it into k9data if you would like.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Yes I agree, k9data is a great idea. I have Bentley listed but the last time I checked none of his siblings were listed. 
When I 1st read that she demanded the paperwork back I was shocked, then in sank in and I said yep, she knows what she's doing alright


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sharon - this will work better than sending that information to the AKC. And I'm sure the AKC people will suggest the same to you:

Have the xrays submitted to OFA. 

Enter your dog into K9Data and put the information "Severe Hip Dysplasia" on there, 

This will aid people who are looking up pedigrees on both locations if they are buying puppies from relatives of your dogs. OR breeding dogs closely or distantly related to yours.

*** In general, hip dysplasia will still occur in litters where both parents have clearances and a history of clearances. But the type of hip dysplasia as with your puppy (I saw the xrays on the other thread) are more likely to occur when you have little or no clearances behind the parents. I imagine hips like that would happen if we bred my Jacks (who has mild bilateral hip dysplasia) with another golden who has hip dysplasia. Jacks' hips when I first had them checked show shallow sockets. They've been rechecked since then (when he was almost 6) and there was little change with either hip - which again, I was glad to see, and I'm still hoping he will be one of those who is sound all his life. 
With your pup - she practically has no socket on the one side it's so flat. Very definitely, I think you must have surgery done for her sake.  

This is why it is so important to make sure those full clearances are there.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

SheetsSM said:


> As with others, not meaning in any way to pile on, but I think it's important to educate anyone else coming across these threads. Josie's breeder didn't do full clearances at least not on Josie's dam Windsong's Shimmering Gold who does not have a single clearance listed on offa.org. In fact she was born 22 Sept 2008 and had her first litter 5 Sep 2009. As for Josie's sire, he only has hips & elbows listed and his dam has zero clearances posted to offa.org. With at least one offspring of his having hip dysplasia, it would be too risky to pursue a litter in which there isn't a solid history (multiple generations of clearances).
> 
> I am happy that for you & more importantly that Josie got lucky with her health. As for someone who has a little girl who came from a poor excuse of breeder who didn't get so lucky (bi-lateral hip dysplasia, hypothyroid, incorrect temperament...) I can't not speak out against those breeders not doing everything in their power to stack the odds in the favor of the pups being produced as well as those failing to take the welfare of their own dogs being bred into account.


Guess I'm not as smart as I thought. The breeder had sent me an email stating that her dogs had hip clearances. That was the first thing I asked her when inquiring about Josie. At the time, that is all I thought I needed to be concerned with. Guess not. I'm sure Megora is jumping for joy that it has now been pointed out that Josie is from what she considers a BYB. 

I appreciate everyone who sent me personal messages today asking me to stay with the forum. You all had very kind words and it does prove there are some very good and wonderful people on this forum. But, I can't stay. I realize the majority of you want the absolute best for this wonderful breed and that is what you're achieving by some of these threads. I really do understand that. I thank Brinkleysmom for bringing these problems to everyone's attention. You're doing a very good thing. 

I'm sitting here watching Josie as she stares out the window watching the cars go by. She is a healthy, happy girl and the absolute joy of my life. I didn't think there were other people out there who loved their goldens as much as I did until I joined the forum. I'm so thankful for her every day. She has literally saved my life twice by waking me up in the middle of night when I've had a low blood sugar due to Type 1 Diabetes. I owe her my life. Something in Josie's lineage was done correctly and there isn't a clearance out there that can spot what she has done for me. Josie is all that I have.

It was a hard day to begin with and trust me, I wish I had never logged on to the forum today or made any comments because it has now made it even worse. I wish everyone happy, healthy goldens. I'm especially thinking of a new friend, Lincoln's Mom, that had to say goodbye to her precious 14 year old Lincoln on Tuesday. I cried for a family and dog I never even met but know exactly what they are feeling. 

Take care everyone. 

Allison and her beloved, Josie.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Guess not. I'm sure Megora is jumping for joy that it has now been pointed out that Josie is from what she considers a BYB.


 This is very unkind and uncivil of you to say. 

I would never be jumping for joy at somebody else's expense.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Megora said:


> This is very unkind and uncivil of you to say.
> 
> I would never be jumping for joy at somebody else's expense.



I apologize for the insensitive comment. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

Bentleysmom said:


> Danny, Bentley says thank you. In fact we're going to start our own club. The ADC (adorable dog cuties). All dogs welcome. No fees just lots of snuggles and smiles


Consider us signed up to the most important club in the doggie world. Thanks, Joyce!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Bentleysmom said:


> At what age do good breeders start breeding their girl? Is just under a year and a half early?


Joyce, final clearances (ofa hip & elbows) cannot be accomplished until a golden is 2 yrs old. IMO, too early is before all recommended clearances are accomplished. That said, clearances are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to reputable breeding. For me, if a breeder isn't out competing and demonstrating that their goldens conform to standard then they aren't a good breeder. How can once honestly assure a puppy buyer that they're breeding structurally sound pups with the classic golden temperament if the dogs have never left their property. What qualifications does the breeder have to make such statements? We wouldn't trust a doctor/mechanic/accountant...to do work without such credentials, then why are we so willing to entrust these BYBs & mills to produce our cherished family members with no evidence other than an email promising all is well or a website that tells us their the best?


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Joyce, final clearances (ofa hip & elbows) cannot be accomplished until a golden is 2 yrs old. IMO, too early is before all recommended clearances are accomplished. That said, clearances are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to reputable breeding. For me, if a breeder isn't out competing and demonstrating that their goldens conform to standard then they aren't a good breeder. How can once honestly assure a puppy buyer that they're breeding structurally sound pups with the classic golden temperament if the dogs have never left their property. What qualifications does the breeder have to make such statements? We wouldn't trust a doctor/mechanic/accountant...to do work without such credentials, then why are we so willing to entrust these BYBs & mills to produce our cherished family members with no evidence other than an email promising all is well or a website that tells us their the best?


hhmm where did I put my brain, I know I had it around here somewhere!!  I completely blanked on the clearances being done at 2 and for some reason was thinking they were done at 1 yr. 
Poor Bentley's mom, I bet her growth plates weren't even closed all the way yet. :doh:


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Bentleysmom said:


> hhmm where did I put my brain, I know I had it around here somewhere!!  I completely blanked on the clearances being done at 2 and for some reason was thinking they were done at 1 yr.
> *Poor Bentley's mom,* I bet her growth plates weren't even closed all the way yet. :doh:


I totally thought you were talking about yourself there for a minute.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Brave said:


> I totally thought you were talking about yourself there for a minute.


hahahahahahahahahahhaha


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

OMG I just caught up on this thread. I have been noticing that with new CGC and CGCA titles comes an offer to DNA test dogs, but I didnt stop to think it could be discovered some shennanigans had gone on with parentage. The AKC was very strict about Lush's litter with frozen form 20 years ago. They were adamant in making sure I had not bred her to Fido around the corner, and then claimed it was Super Stud circa 1998. I would think this breeder must be squirming, and certainly owes you all your money back.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

abradshaw71 said:


> I appreciate everyone who sent me personal messages today asking me to stay with the forum. Y.


We have all been there in owning a BYB dog or a dog whose breeder took heat on the forum for breeding practices. I know I have, but I stuck around and learned so much. There is no need to take it personally This is a group of people who usually err only on the side of being golden-crazy.


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

I have been reading this thread and been a little reluctant to chime in, but here I go. We all want what is best for our dogs. Supporting breeders that conduct ethical/proper breeding programs is the best way to do that.

However many of us go the other route. While we love goldens - we support the rescues to make sure dogs who never asked to be born get the love they deserve. I am one of those people.

I know my Remy came from a really bad back yard breeder. I knew he had a swallowing condition when I selected him from the rescue. I knew no one else wanted him because of this, and that only mad me want him more. The truth is I would never have adopted him if I'd known all the other challenges poor Remy would face with his health - my motto had always been I am willing to adopt a special needs dog, as long as the need wouldn't shorten his life. Now I realize how selfish that is.

I only spent about $700 when I got Remy. The adoption fee was around $350 and while most southern dogs come up through a transport that is only $125 - my boy didn't qualify for that because of his special needs, so I flew him up to NY with joy knowing he would finally be home.

Everyone who knows me on this board knows that in the 4 years Remy has been with me I've spent tens of thousands of dollars in veterinary bills. So clearly it is not the cost of the puppy that pushes me to back yard breeder and/or rescues - it truly is my love for the animals themselves.

So having said that - I continue to agree with everyone on this board, I truly wish the back yard breeders and puppy mills would be shut down. I have nothing but very harsh thoughts for them. Were they not to exist perhaps our special needs dogs would not suffer so much. We would be left with responsible breeders who only breed litters when they have a waiting list of adopters.

When that time comes I will gladly pay a couple thousand dollars, or more, for a well bred, healthy puppy with great genetics. Until then I will continue to adopt from rescues and take my chances on these poor soles who deserve the best I can give them.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Ljilly28 said:


> We have all been there in owning a BYB dog or a dog whose breeder took heat on the forum for breeding practices. I know I have, but I stuck around and learned so much. There is no need to take it personally This is a group of people who usually err only on the side of being golden-crazy.


Thank you. I did change my mind...mainly because they make it impossible to leave the forum.  But also, I'm realizing there are some amazing and wonderful people here that I've gotten to know and have received a lot of friendly advice from.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I agree Lennap. Bentley is the first dog we've ever had that wasn't a rescue and he will be the last. After this we will go back to rescuing dogs only, concentrating on the seniors that have no place to live out their last years. There really isn't anything quite like a rescue dog IMO.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> OMG I just caught up on this thread. I have been noticing that with new CGC and CGCA titles comes an offer to DNA test dogs, but I didnt stop to think it could be discovered some shennanigans had gone on with parentage. The AKC was very strict about Lush's litter with frozen form 20 years ago. They were adamant in making sure I had not bred her to Fido around the corner, and then claimed it was Super Stud circa 1998. I would think this breeder must be squirming, and certainly owes you all your money back.


When Bentley got his CGC I received a DNA discount offer but I didn't think twice about it. I mean, through AKC I have 5 generation pedigree so I thought that was redundant. Apparently someone had the smarts to go for the DNA. Thank you to whomever did it!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Joyce, have you considered a lawsuit? Although America is sometimes too litigious a society, in this case a few well-placed lawsuits may be just what is needed to shut this greeder down.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Selli-Belle said:


> Joyce, have you considered a lawsuit? Although America is sometimes too litigious a society, in this case a few well-placed lawsuits may be just what is needed to shut this greeder down.


We're thinking on the same lines here  If that's the only way to get enough attention to the situation I am more than willing!


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

Bentley is definitely a poster boy for the ADC - Adorable Dogs Club


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Bentleysmom said:


> When Bentley got his CGC I received a DNA discount offer but I didn't think twice about it. I mean, through AKC I have 5 generation pedigree so I thought that was redundant. Apparently someone had the smarts to go for the DNA. Thank you to whomever did it!


It's ironic that any dog related to her breeding stock has DNA on file with AKC. Surprising she would have done that with any of her dogs.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> It's ironic that any dog related to her breeding stock has DNA on file with AKC. Surprising she would have done that with any of her dogs.


Actually you see it quite a bit with high volume breeders, I think when they've had so many litters, it's a requirement

https://www.akc.org/dna/ <-- lists out reasons as to when DNA is required.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

That's interesting. I wonder how many of the puppy mills actually comply.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

In order to keep registering w/ AKC, they do. I follow several HVBs out of Oklahoma & they advertise the DNA as a selling point--with an uneducated buyer, it looks like the breeder is a "cut above" the rest (i.e. Billy Bob selling the offspring of the family pets on the farm). You can also watch the dog auctions, they list if there is DNA.


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## Lincoln's Mom (Mar 6, 2014)

The same thing happened to me many years ago. I just forgot about it and moved on.
As some of you know, we Lost Lincoln last Tuesday due to kidney failure and renal failure. Here's the thing - I'm in a funk. Both my husband and I are in total disbelief. It's like we are going through the worst case of depression. Hopefully, it will pass soon.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Lincoln's Mom said:


> The same thing happened to me many years ago. I just forgot about it and moved on.
> As some of you know, we Lost Lincoln last Tuesday due to kidney failure and renal failure. Here's the thing - I'm in a funk. Both my husband and I are in total disbelief. It's like we are going through the worst case of depression. Hopefully, it will pass soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'm very sorry for your loss, I know how devastating it is. Sending Golden hugs.
I wish I could just drop this and forget it but I can't do that when I know how horrible life is for those dogs, I have to continue fighting for them. They all deserve a warm bed and someone to love them.


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## brianne (Feb 18, 2012)

Glad to hear that adorable Bentley has started a new club since being kicked out of the AKC. Chumlee would like to join because, being a rescue dog, "he don't have no stinkin' papers" either. He'd like to gently suggest a name change from the Adorable Dog Cuties to Amazingly Cute Dog Club so he can tell everyone he's a member of AC/DC  Please ask Bentley if he'll consider this.

Seriously Joyce, good luck in your quest to put this puppy mill out of business.


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

brianne said:


> He'd like to gently suggest a name change from the Adorable Dog Cuties to Amazingly Cute Dog Club so he can tell everyone he's a member of AC/DC  Please ask Bentley if he'll consider this.


A marvelous idea, and one I'm sure Angus Young would highly approve of.


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Lincolnsmom - I'm sorry. I know how much it hurts and how hard it is to come to terms with losing a beloved furkid.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Megora said:


> Again - the problem is you have to consider the state that we live in.
> 
> You look at pictures of that breeder and they are just a backyard breeder. They provide shelter for the dogs. The dogs are fed and apparently cared for within the law.
> 
> ...


To follow up with this comment of mine... I just saw a news story that made me feel sick, but I'm not surprised.  

Dozens Of Dead Dogs Exposed By Melting Snow At Sprawling Detroit Park « CBS Detroit

"Greg Ostrander, who lives nearby, was walking through Rouge Park on his way to a pharmacy Thursday when he found a dead dog with lacerations in the fetal position inside an abandoned kennel in the middle of Spinoza Drive. The dog was padlocked and chained to the kennel. About 20 feet away, Ostrander spotted a dead Rottweiler....."


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Luke has papers and I could care a less. He has a beautiful heart. People often tell me he could be a therapy dog and he could -- and may be one day to others -- but he already is to me. 

I'm sure Bentley is your Luke. You don't need papers for that.


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