# Pretty Typical Dr. Tim's Testimonial



## artbuc

Rocky is doing great on Pursuit. He loves it and his coat is much nicer. As predicted by WCF, I am feeding 20% less than Orijen 6Fish. Much less expensive and no more worries about supply interruptions.


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## WasChampionFan

Great food, but for many GR's Kinesis 26/16 might be a better choice than Pursuit at 30/20. 

Rocky is young, a male and gets enough activity.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

What's going on with Annamaet??? I see the Option is now salmon based, not catfish (so much for a "cleaner" fish) and the Encore has less calories. Also, I don't remember seeing selenium yeast in their prior products and now I see both selenium yeast and sodium selenite. Why does it need both?

Sorry for the hijack, but was hoping since these 2 foods are both touted by WCF that he'd see this.


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## WasChampionFan

I really don't know. Some of the formulas have gone to a different vitamin and mineral mix I see. I can't tell you why both selenium yeast and the actual mineral are in the food except for the fact the potency in the yeast might be lower. Not everyone is convinced the yeast is the way to go. As far as Encore, perhaps the kibble is a bit bigger now and it throws off the cup calorie count, but not the calories by weight.

Now that my local store has Dr. Tim's and I can get bulk pricing, I imagine I might be moving all the dogs on Pursuit and the older ones on Kinesis. I have one dog on the new Dr. Tim's GF and I went cold turkey and the transition was perfect. Personally, I don't see a reason for a GF food but it appears to be just as good as the others. 32/18 is a nice formula, 92% of protein from animal sources.

The palatability of Dr. Tim's is absolutely insane and for now at least it is a bit cheaper. 

I wouldn't be concerned about any changes with Annamaet formulas, he is a pro and doesn't take changes lightly or make quick decisions. If he is using salmon it is the same wild salmon in the grain free foods.


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## Desert Rat

*How does Dr. Tim's compare to Fromms?*

This is the first I have heard about Dr. Tim's. How does the quality, results, and ingredients compare to Fromms? I realize results are subjective and dependent upon the dog.

I have two male GRs, ages 9 and 6. No food allergies, will eat just about any decent food, good health, and pretty active (morning walks/runs, lots of swimming). The description for Kinesis makes it sound like it is for couch potatoes......would Kinesis or Pursuit be better for my dogs?

Thanks in advance!


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## A1Malinois

Desert Rat said:


> This is the first I have heard about Dr. Tim's. How does the quality, results, and ingredients compare to Fromms? I realize results are subjective and dependent upon the dog.
> 
> I have two male GRs, ages 9 and 6. No food allergies, will eat just about any decent food, good health, and pretty active (morning walks/runs, lots of swimming). The description for Kinesis makes it sound like it is for couch potatoes......would Kinesis or Pursuit be better for my dogs?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


It depends on which from your feeding. Fromm Gold and Four star are better then Dr Tims IMO


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## artbuc

A1Malinois said:


> It depends on which from your feeding. Fromm Gold and Four star are better then Dr Tims IMO


What specifically do you like better about Fromm Gold/Four Star compared to Dr Tim's? Rocky is doing great on Dr Tim's but I am always open to an upgrade. Thanks.


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## WasChampionFan

A1Malinois said:


> It depends on which from your feeding. Fromm Gold and Four star are better then Dr Tims IMO


Fromm is an ordinary food just made to look like people food. There is no comparison to the Dr. Tim's food, not even close.

Guys that take Malamutes on 100 day camping trips to the arctic in winter use Dr. Tim's. Top people from all types of competition use Dr. Tim's. 

http://drtims.com/danie-arnt-and-seeker/
http://drtims.com/dallas-seavey/

While Fromm is a safe food, it is pretty ordinary. The 4 Star foods are extremely expensive with most just average foods with about 24% protein and low meat % and the GF foods are filled with concentrated vegetable protein, "pea protein".

Fromm is all show and no go.

Artbuc, you are using Pursuit, a 30/20, with 94% protein from animal sources, there is nothing that Fromm makes that could compare.


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## WasChampionFan

Desert Rat said:


> This is the first I have heard about Dr. Tim's. How does the quality, results, and ingredients compare to Fromms? I realize results are subjective and dependent upon the dog.
> 
> I have two male GRs, ages 9 and 6. No food allergies, will eat just about any decent food, good health, and pretty active (morning walks/runs, lots of swimming). The description for Kinesis makes it sound like it is for couch potatoes......would Kinesis or Pursuit be better for my dogs?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I would use Kinesis, 26/16 because of the age of your dogs, and I would assume both are neutered. This food has 90% of protein from animal sources. Pursuit is too caloric for your dogs. It is a competition food. Momentum is even more so. This is the food that dominates the race scene. The famous Arctic guide Joe Hendersom uses Pursuit & Momentum on his Malamutes.


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## Desert Rat

Thank you for the replies. I will give Dr. Tim's Kinesis a shot. I used to feed Taste of the Wild High Prairie. One, they have changed their formula, and two, remote as it may be, I don't want to take the risk of using a kibble manufactured in Diamond facilities.


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## Desert Rat

And yes, both are neutered, neither until they were mature. In fact, the breeder told me that if they are neutered too young, they won't develop the same way, that their heads will not grow as big, and that they will get longer legs and not the desired athletic look. I thought that sounded like the biggest wive's tale I had ever heard. But, since she has been breeding and showing GR's for 30 years and my dogs were never loose to worry about not being neutered, I waited. After a few years, I met the owners of one of my 9 yr old's litter mates, another male. They looked very similar, BUT the other dog had a much smaller head and longer skinnier legs. Now this is just one example and not a scientific study, but I was surprised and the breeder has my full faith now. 

Interestingly, they are quite active for their ages. The 9 year old still bounces around like a pup and frequently wrestles with the 6 year old.


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## Desert Rat

*Dr. Tim's Kinesis - Bag Sizes*

OK....comparing Dr. Tim's on PetFlow, Chewy, and Dogfooddirect, I find something interesting. Chewy shows 5 lb, 15 lb, and 30 lb sizes. Petflow shows 8 lb, 18 bl, 33 lb, and 44 lb sizes. Dogfooddirect shows 18 lb and 33 lb, confirming the Petflow sizes. Do they make different sizes for different distributors, or are the sizes shown on Chewy incorrect?


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## A1Malinois

artbuc said:


> What specifically do you like better about Fromm Gold/Four Star compared to Dr Tim's? Rocky is doing great on Dr Tim's but I am always open to an upgrade. Thanks.


I like Fromm better because they contain more meat then Dr Tims. Plus Fromm offers grain free.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

A1Malinois said:


> I like Fromm better because they contain more meat then Dr Tims. Plus Fromm offers grain free.


 
How have you come to that conclusion?? Also, Dr. Tim's now has grain free.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

I've used Fromm 4 star line for several years and have been pleased with how Cody has done on it. That being said, I don't think it has as much meat protein as Dr Tims.

Here's what the dog food advisor has to say about both:

Dr. Tim's Dog Food | Review and Rating

Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Dry Dog Food | Review and Rating

Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Grain-Free Dog Food | Review and Rating

And an interesting comparison chart from Dr. Tim's
Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's


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## A1Malinois

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> How have you come to that conclusion?? Also, Dr. Tim's now has grain free.


I only saw 3 foods on their website. All of which was loaded with grains. 



Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I've used Fromm 4 star line for several years and have been pleased with how Cody has done on it. That being said, I don't think it has as much meat protein as Dr Tims.
> 
> Here's what the dog food advisor has to say about both:
> 
> Dr. Tim's Dog Food | Review and Rating
> 
> Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Dry Dog Food | Review and Rating
> 
> Fromm Four Star Nutritionals Grain-Free Dog Food | Review and Rating
> 
> And an interesting comparison chart from Dr. Tim's
> Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's


I love how they cant even spell Orijen correctly.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

The grain free Kinesis is on the home page.... scroll to the bottom. Premium All Natural Pet Food | Dr. Tim's

.


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## artbuc

A1Malinois said:


> I only saw 3 foods on their website. All of which was loaded with grains.
> 
> 
> 
> I love how they cant even spell Orijen correctly.


A1, correct me if I am wrong but it appears you are forming quantitative conclusions based on a qualitative assessment of the order of ingredients. I think it is pretty simple. First, determine the per cent and source of protein you want. Then determine the the per cent and source of fat you want. Then look for low ash which is healthy and a good indication of animal protein quality. Whether your carbs come from grain, legumes or tubers is really not important unless your dog has an intolerance issue although some carbs are more digestible and provide more even energy than others.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

An easy way to estimate carb content is to add together the crude protein %, fat, moisture and ash... subtract from 100. However, even with that number it's impossibe to tell how much of that is actually digestible or from animal sources and not veggie protein.


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## A1Malinois

artbuc said:


> A1, correct me if I am wrong but it appears you are forming quantitative conclusions based on a qualitative assessment of the order of ingredients. I think it is pretty simple. First, determine the per cent and source of protein you want. Then determine the the per cent and source of fat you want. Then look for low ash which is healthy and a good indication of animal protein quality. Whether your carbs come from grain, legumes or tubers is really not important unless your dog has an intolerance issue although some carbs are more digestible and provide more even energy than others.


When I see meat further down the list in one food and meat further up the list in another..obviously I am going to choose the food that has the meat further up. 

Since this makes no sense to me. Maybe you can help me break down the one I am feeding. I dont want to hear "the company sucks, doesnt use quality ingredients etc" just tell me based on the ingredients why its good or why its not. 

Lamb meal, deboned lamb, steel-cut oats, peas, whole apples, whole potato, sunflower oil, oat flakes, lamb liver, sun-cured alfalfa, whole pears, algae meal (source of DHA, EPA), pea fiber, sweet potato, pumpkin, butternut squash, parsnips, carrots, spinach, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, chicory root, juniper berries, angelica root, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, lavender, rosemary.

Crude protein (min.) 25% Crude fat (min.) 16% Crude fiber (max.) 4% Moisture (max.) 10% Calcium (min.) 2.2 % Phosphorus (min.) 1.4% Calcium: Phosphorus Ratio 1.6:1 Omega-6 (min.)
LA (min.) 2.5%
2.3% Omega 3 (min.)
EPA (min.)
DHA (min.) 0.5%
0.2%
0.2% Omega 6:Omega 3 ratio 5:1 Glucosamine (min.) 700 mg/kg Chondroitin sulfate (min.) 500 mg/kg


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Do you know the ash content? Usually it's between 5-8 ( at least I wouldn't want to feed anything higher). The lower the ash, the better quality of meat used as a rule ( since bones drive up the ash content). So if we assume that the ash content is 8, an estimate of the carb % is 41% (100- protein - fat - moisture - ash)/ If the ash were 5%, the carb content would be around 44%. It's not a definitive, but is a good indicator.


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## A1Malinois

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Do you know the ash content? Usually it's between 5-8 ( at least I wouldn't want to feed anything higher). The lower the ash, the better quality of meat used as a rule ( since bones drive up the ash content). So if we assume that the ash content is 8, an estimate of the carb % is 41% (100- protein - fat - moisture - ash)/ If the ash were 5%, the carb content would be around 44%. It's not a definitive, but is a good indicator.


I was told the ash content is 9%


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

So with 9%, it would be 100-25-16-10-9= 40% carbs (approx)


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## A1Malinois

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> So with 9%, it would be 100-25-16-10-9= 40% carbs (approx)


So how much protein? They are claiming 45% on the bag I believe


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## Garfield

A1Malinois said:


> So how much protein? They are claiming 45% on the bag I believe


The bag says the food is comprised of 45% lamb ingredients yet it's only 25% protein, not all of which comes from lamb/meat ingredients.


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## A1Malinois

Garfield said:


> The bag says the food is comprised of 45% lamb ingredients yet it's only 25% protein, not all of which comes from lamb/meat ingredients.


How did you gather this?


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## Garfield

A1Malinois said:


> How did you gather this?


From the company. But given the stated meat inclusion, protein%, and the ordering of ingredients, one could reasonably deduce the majority of that 25% protein is from meat sources with ingredients such as pea, oat, potatoes, spinach, etc, contributing some as well.


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## A1Malinois

Garfield said:


> From the company. But given the stated meat inclusion, protein%, and the ordering of ingredients, one could reasonably deduce the majority of that 25% protein is from meat sources with ingredients such as pea, oat, potatoes, spinach, etc, contributing some as well.


That makes no sense, if the bag says 45% then its 45% no?


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## Garfield

A1Malinois said:


> That makes no sense, if the bag says 45% then its 45% no?


That 45% is an arbitrary figure more for marketing purposes than any true, quantifiable measure. Its intent is that people look at it and conclude, "wow, that food's almost half meat protein!"

Meanwhile the more definitive number of 25% tells how much of the food (by weight) is protein, which is actually no more than a quarter. From there, that quarter can be further divided between animal and plant protein sources. One of the reasons WCF is so high on Dr. Tim's is the claim that ~90% of its ~30% protein is from animal sources. That is a comparably high percentage indicating a more minimal carb content than its diverse ingredients might lead one to believe.


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## A1Malinois

Garfield said:


> That 45% is an arbitrary figure more for marketing purposes than any true, quantifiable measure. Its intent is that people look at it and conclude, "wow, that food's almost half meat protein!"
> 
> Meanwhile the more definitive number of 25% tells how much of the food (by weight) is protein, which is actually no more than a quarter. From there, that quarter can be further divided between animal and plant protein sources. One of the reasons WCF is so high on Dr. Tim's is the claim that ~90% of its ~30% protein is from animal sources. That is a comparably high percentage indicating a more minimal carb content than its diverse ingredients might lead one to believe.


Well Dr Tims claims that. Has he proved it?


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## artbuc

A1Malinois said:


> Well Dr Tims claims that. Has he proved it?


[email protected]

Shoot him an email, ask him for proof and post his answer here so we can all learn. Thanks.

PS if you do not believe what Dr Tim says, maybe you could hire a detective (a retired CIA agent would be a good choice) who could go under cover and investigate the shady operation at Ohio Pet Foods. Better yet, buy some DT's food and have it analyzed by an independent lab. Of course, this will still not prove anything because most independent labs are in a secret conspiracy with the Dr Tim's conglomerate making their results highly suspect.


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## A1Malinois

artbuc said:


> [email protected]
> 
> Shoot him an email, ask him for proof and post his answer here so we can all learn. Thanks.
> 
> PS if you do not believe what Dr Tim says, maybe you could hire a detective (a retired CIA agent would be a good choice) who could go under cover and investigate the shady operation at Ohio Pet Foods. Better yet, buy some DT's food and have it analyzed by an independent lab. Of course, this will still not prove anything because most independent labs are in a secret conspiracy with the Dr Tim's conglomerate making their results highly suspect.


WTH is your problem? Lots of companies make claims, but not a lot of them prove it. So I was just curious if he could actually prove the claims he makes about his food or if he is just claiming things to sell his food.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Bottom line, feed what works for YOUR dog. Dr. Tim is a vet of long standing and is a volunteer team vet for race teams so his experience speaks for itself. So, unlike many faceless companies, at least there is some reality behind his products.

When looking to dissect a food, the ingredient list and guaranteed analysis are about the best you can do.... even so, there is much much info that is not attainable from that.


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## A1Malinois

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Bottom line, feed what works for YOUR dog. Dr. Tim is a vet of long standing and is a volunteer team vet for race teams so his experience speaks for itself. So, unlike many faceless companies, at least there is some reality behind his products.
> 
> When looking to dissect a food, the ingredient list and guaranteed analysis are about the best you can do.... even so, there is much much info that is not attainable from that.


Just because hes a vet doesnt mean anything though to me. Look at Hills, they have vets on their chairs that claim wheat, corn and soy are great for dogs


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

He's developed his food with his interests at heart..... racing. He works with teams that use his food. Whatever, good luck at discerning how to find a long term food your dog does well on.


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## artbuc

A1Malinois said:


> Just because hes a vet doesnt mean anything though to me. Look at Hills, they have vets on their chairs that claim wheat, corn and soy are great for dogs


No need to get nasty. I was just poking a little fun at your over-the-top skepticism. Really though, if you have that much distrust, you should make your own dog food.


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## A1Malinois

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> He's developed his food with his interests at heart..... racing. He works with teams that use his food. Whatever, good luck at discerning how to find a long term food your dog does well on.


Hills claims they have dogs best interest at heart when they make their food. 



artbuc said:


> No need to get nasty. I was just poking a little fun at your over-the-top skepticism. Really though, if you have that much distrust, you should make your own dog food.


If it wasnt meant to be taken the way it was, I apologize, its hard to read the intentions of someones posts on line sometimes. 

I guess I just dont understand why his food is so much better then any other kibble on the market, same with Annamaet.


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## artbuc

A1Malinois said:


> Hills claims they have dogs best interest at heart when they make their food.
> 
> 
> 
> If it wasnt meant to be taken the way it was, I apologize, its hard to read the intentions of someones posts on line sometimes.
> 
> I guess I just dont understand why his food is so much better then any other kibble on the market, same with Annamaet.


Over the last decade there have been numerous pet food recalls due to contamination of ingredients and manufacturing process errors. Goldhaven just posted about another recall (http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-recall/avoderm-dog-food-recall/). In some case, pets have died. Ohio Pet Foods has a 100% clean record and they are EU certified. IMO, any food manufactured at OPF has a big leg up on other foods. Combine that with Dr Tim's hands-on involvement with dogs and his unblemished reputation in the dog competition world, you should have a high confidence in his food. Additionally, look at his vitamin/mineral package and low price. I am not saying DT's food is better than any other food because a food is only good if your dog does well on it. I fed Rocky Orijen 6Fish for almost two years and Acana before that. Orijen/Acana are generally regarded as top tier. I can tell you Rocky is a different dog on DT's Pursuit. I feed about 15-20% less Pursuit even though 6Fish claims to have (within rounding error) the same kcal/kg as Pursuit. Apparently, Rocky is extracting more energy from Pursuit. Finally, Rocky eagerly ate his 6Fish but you can tell he prefers and seems more satiated on Pursuit.


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## A1Malinois

artbuc said:


> Over the last decade there have been numerous pet food recalls due to contamination of ingredients and manufacturing process errors. Goldhaven just posted about another recall (AvoDerm Dog Food Recall). In some case, pets have died. Ohio Pet Foods has a 100% clean record and they are EU certified. IMO, any food manufactured at OPF has a big leg up on other foods. Combine that with Dr Tim's hands-on involvement with dogs and his unblemished reputation in the dog competition world, you should have a high confidence in his food. Additionally, look at his vitamin/mineral package and low price. I am not saying DT's food is better than any other food because a food is only good if your dog does well on it. I fed Rocky Orijen 6Fish for almost two years and Acana before that. Orijen/Acana are generally regarded as top tier. I can tell you Rocky is a different dog on DT's Pursuit. I feed about 15-20% less Pursuit even though 6Fish claims to have (within rounding error) the same kcal/kg as Pursuit. Apparently, Rocky is extracting more energy from Pursuit. Finally, Rocky eagerly ate his 6Fish but you can tell he prefers and seems more satiated on Pursuit.


I cannot find Dr Tims locally. Ordering it online even if I wanted to try it would cost me $40-$60 in shipping.


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## WasChampionFan

A1Malinois said:


> I like Fromm better because they contain more meat then Dr Tims. Plus Fromm offers grain free.


You don't understand labelling.


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## WasChampionFan

Garfield said:


> That 45% is an arbitrary figure more for marketing purposes than any true, quantifiable measure. Its intent is that people look at it and conclude, "wow, that food's almost half meat protein!"
> 
> Meanwhile the more definitive number of 25% tells how much of the food (by weight) is protein, which is actually no more than a quarter. From there, that quarter can be further divided between animal and plant protein sources. One of the reasons WCF is so high on Dr. Tim's is the claim that ~90% of its ~30% protein is from animal sources. That is a comparably high percentage indicating a more minimal carb content than its diverse ingredients might lead one to believe.


This is quite easy to estimate. Dr Tim's uses brown rice, which has a MAXIMUM of 3% protein. So the protein in the food has to come from meat. There are no vegetable protein concentrates.

It is simple 6th grade math.

By the way, Dr. Tim's Pursuit and Momentum woud be considered low carb, in fact Momentum is ultra-low carb. Kinesis is moderate carb, but the protein sources are animal-based. There are about 7 concentrated sources in the formulas.


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## WasChampionFan

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Bottom line, feed what works for YOUR dog. Dr. Tim is a vet of long standing and is a volunteer team vet for race teams so his experience speaks for itself. So, unlike many faceless companies, at least there is some reality behind his products.
> 
> When looking to dissect a food, the ingredient list and guaranteed analysis are about the best you can do.... even so, there is much much info that is not attainable from that.


Here is another interestesting testimonial, and I happen to know Scott Townsend but I didn't know he switched is kennel to Dr. Tim's. Scott is one of the top 5 trial trainers in the US.


*"Tim, *​ 

*Just got back from the Purina Endurance Trial. 112 dogs entered. I had 5 that were qualified. All of them are on Moment**um. I finished 2nd, 4th and my young GSP was put out in the 16 to 8 cut by a National champion. Didn't win but real pleased with those results. Its rare to put two dogs in the final four.*


*The dogs held up great in the heat. I can't tell you how much I am pleased with the food. I was concerned with having them on a new food and then running them in the heat. It is a concern I will no longer have to think about. They performed better then I have ever seen them. *​ 

*Keep up the good work.*​ 

*Scott"*​ 

*Scott posted this on FB this week. Also Dr. Tim has been the Official Race Vet for the Iditarod at least 3 times. *​


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## A1Malinois

WasChampionFan said:


> You don't understand labelling.


Im pretty sure I have a good idea on how to read a label. You seem to recommend them so much it makes me wonder if your on their payroll


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## Trailman

A1Malinois said:


> Im pretty sure I have a good idea on how to read a label. You seem to recommend them so much it makes me wonder if your on their payroll


Wow just came on here to get info about food. You guys take food reviews to a new level.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Welcome Trailman...... we really are a nice group, but this probably isn't the best example of our congeniality. ; )


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## Trailman

Ya I would say so. I,m deciding on either Golden or German Shepherd or Belgian shepherd. I been on forums long time ago. They had rules on the way you couid talk to other members.


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## A1Malinois

Trailman said:


> Ya I would say so. I,m deciding on either Golden or German Shepherd or Belgian shepherd. I been on forums long time ago. They had rules on the way you couid talk to other members.


I have a Belgian Shepherd . Welcome


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## msc

Anyone know how Dr. Tim's Kinesis would compare to Annamaet Encore?


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## WasChampionFan

msc said:


> Anyone know how Dr. Tim's Kinesis would compare to Annamaet Encore?


Good question. For most dogs they would be about the same, but Dr. Tim's has some ingredients like Porcine Plasma that make it a technically better food. The fiber sources in Dr. Tim's would be better for a more active dog.

I would go with Dr. Tim's because the deal on 44lb bags at Petflow is great.

Both are great foods, though.


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## msc

Anyone know the phosphorus of Annamaet Encore?
Found the value for Dr. Tim's


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## WasChampionFan

msc said:


> Anyone know the phosphorus of Annamaet Encore?
> Found the value for Dr. Tim's


I would guess about the same. Both are low and where they should be.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

msc said:


> Anyone know the phosphorus of Annamaet Encore?
> Found the value for Dr. Tim's


 
Email them and ask. I've done so before and they were very good about getting back with me.


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## msc

Penny,

You still using Dr. Tims Kinesis?
Any comments about it?
Did you ever consider going with Pursuit over Kinesis?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

msc said:


> Penny,
> 
> You still using Dr. Tims Kinesis?
> Any comments about it?
> Did you ever consider going with Pursuit over Kinesis?


Yes, we've been using it since Sept. Very pleased. I haven't thought of Pursuit since our trio are seniors and not super active.


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## artbuc

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Yes, we've been using it since Sept. Very pleased. I haven't thought of Pursuit since our trio are seniors and not super active.


Rocky will be 6 next month and he has not slowed down a lick. He is our 6th GR. The first 5 (except Tucker who died at 2 from osteosarcoma) were all starting to chill out by 6. We have a one acre fenced backyard and many mornings he sprints the perimeter 2x before going on a 2-3 mile walk on lead. After walking, he runs zoomies in the backyard (except on not summer days).


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## WasChampionFan

I thought this was interesting, from FB,


*"Dear Dr. Tim—–a short testimonial*

_*Chi was always a problem eater and very high energy. After a bout with anaplasmosis, he just kept getting thinner and thinner..Tried every thing but he never seemed to hold on to the pounds. A Spinone owner suggested that I try Momentum. Chi has been the food for 6 months, he still only eats 2-3 cups of food per day and yet the change is unbelievable. He no longer looks ribby, his coat has changed, and his stamina in the field has improved. I am so glad I changed food (and so is Chi)…………………..Mary Bloom"*_


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## WasChampionFan

Well, Dr. Tim did it again. Second year in a row of dominating the Iditarod. Mitch Seavey won and 4 other placement in the top 10. 


Dr. Tim's fed dogs also won the National Skijoring Championship and just recently the Top Border Collie in the US in obedience and agility.


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## stealle

WasChampionFan said:


> Well, Dr. Tim did it again. Second year in a row of dominating the Iditarod. Mitch Seavey won and 4 other placement in the top 10.
> 
> Dr. Tim's fed dogs also won the National Skijoring Championship and just recently the Top Border Collie in the US in obedience and agility.


Congrats to Dr. Tim!

I bet those dogs did nothing but lay around eating Dr. Tims dog food prior to race day, lol.

Seriously though, congrats to Dr. Tim. Glad for him that his hard work paid off!


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## artbuc

WasChampionFan said:


> Well, Dr. Tim did it again. Second year in a row of dominating the Iditarod. Mitch Seavey won and 4 other placement in the top 10.
> 
> 
> Dr. Tim's fed dogs also won the National Skijoring Championship and just recently the Top Border Collie in the US in obedience and agility.


Yeah, but what does DogFoodAnalysis say?


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## Sheldon

I switched Sheldon over to Dr Tim's Grain Free a couple weeks ago. He is tolerating this food so good! He is absorbing so much more nutrition, his coat is glowing and no itching!
Food choices can be so subjective and each individual animal can have a different response, but this food smells so good and Sheldon does a happy dance at every feeding!
I have tried Pro-Plan, big mushy stool (itchy), and Fromm's Puppy Gold.. he tolerated this better but his stool was small and very soft.


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## artbuc

Sheldon said:


> I switched Sheldon over to Dr Tim's Grain Free a couple weeks ago. He is tolerating this food so good! He is absorbing so much more nutrition, his coat is glowing and no itching!


Glad Sheldon is doing well but how can you possibly know after just two weeks he is "absorbing so much more nutrition"?


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## Sheldon

artbuc said:


> Glad Sheldon is doing well but how can you possibly know after just two weeks he is "absorbing so much more nutrition"?


 Dramatic change in coat, clear eyes, increased endurance. I live in a equine community and my next door neighbor is a vet, he too noticed a change. I can only assume its food, as nothing else has changed. If your looking for a prior baseline testing protocol, Im sorry I don't have that in place......you will have to do your own testing. His poop is dramatically smaller and very solid and no straining and less trips outside to poop. He is also not as hungry 24 /7 and eating slightly less food. I think the biggest change is the fact his is finally gaining and maintaining weight!

We did start our other dog on the same food a week earlier, but in three weeks he has gained noticeable weight, so we need to back down on his food intake.


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## artbuc

Sheldon said:


> Dramatic change in coat, clear eyes, increased endurance. I live in a equine community and my next door neighbor is a vet, he too noticed a change. I can only assume its food, as nothing else has changed. If your looking for a prior baseline testing protocol, Im sorry I don't have that in place......you will have to do your own testing. His poop is dramatically smaller and very solid and no straining and less trips outside to poop. He is also not as hungry 24 /7 and eating slightly less food. I think the biggest change is the fact his is finally gaining and maintaining weight!
> 
> We did start our other dog on the same food a week earlier, but in three weeks he has gained noticeable weight, so we need to back down on his food intake.


I think Dr Tim's food is outstanding. I know Rocky is doing absolutely great on the Pursuit recipe.


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## Sheldon

artbuc said:


> I think Dr Tim's food is outstanding. I know Rocky is doing absolutely great on the Pursuit recipe.


 What are your thoughts on grain free foods?


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## artbuc

Sheldon said:


> What are your thoughts on grain free foods?


All commercial kibbles need a carbohydrate as a binder. As long as the carb is used that way and not as a protein source, ok. I do not see any advantage substituting one carb for another unless your dog reacts poorly to it. I do not buy into GI for dogs (or people for that matter). I do not think a kibble with potatoes is necessarily better or worse than one with corn.


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## Tuco

artbuc said:


> All commercial kibbles need a carbohydrate as a binder. As long as the carb is used that way and not as a protein source, ok. I do not see any advantage substituting one carb for another unless your dog reacts poorly to it. I do not buy into GI for dogs (or people for that matter). I do not think a kibble with potatoes is necessarily better or worse than one with corn.


Not all carbohydrates are created equal, corn is often under attack because of the incredibly low regulation of corn in animal feed and the high number of mycotoxins, along with it being harder to digest. Potato has its issues too however it is much better than corn IMO, other sources that also have something to bring to the table include pea starch, tapioca, lentils and chickpeas, but again as you said they should only be used as a binder


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## dogloverforlife

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Do you know the ash content? Usually it's between 5-8 ( at least I wouldn't want to feed anything higher). The lower the ash, the better quality of meat used as a rule ( since bones drive up the ash content). So if we assume that the ash content is 8, an estimate of the carb % is 41% (100- protein - fat - moisture - ash)/ If the ash were 5%, the carb content would be around 44%. It's not a definitive, but is a good indicator.


Should I use the as-fed amounts or the dry matter basis amounts?

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## WasChampionFan

Tuco said:


> Not all carbohydrates are created equal, corn is often under attack because of the incredibly low regulation of corn in animal feed and the high number of mycotoxins, along with it being harder to digest. Potato has its issues too however it is much better than corn IMO, other sources that also have something to bring to the table include pea starch, tapioca, lentils and chickpeas, but again as you said they should only be used as a binder
> 
> 
> The comment about corn is not correct. That was just taken from another scare tactic website. The corn in any medium to high quality food, medium being something like Eagle, Eukanuba & Pro Plan, even Hill's, will be what is called #2 Corn, Annamaet and other foods like it will use #1 Corn. Both #1 and #2 are both considered human grade Corn types.
> 
> As far as digestibility goes, so long as it gelatinized and ground the starch is 97% digestible and the protein is about as digestible as fish protein. The reason why people think corn is not digestible is because the shell, or Pericarp, is not, but once it is ground the Pericarp is great fiber. Corn also happens to have 3 times the anti-cancer compounds as many green vegetables.
> 
> The mycotoxin issue can be a problem but the good companies will reject corn that has a certain moisture content automatically, and them test the rest. It has only be a problem with Diamond and Cargill.


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## Tuco

WasChampionFan said:


> Tuco said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not all carbohydrates are created equal, corn is often under attack because of the incredibly low regulation of corn in animal feed and the high number of mycotoxins, along with it being harder to digest. Potato has its issues too however it is much better than corn IMO, other sources that also have something to bring to the table include pea starch, tapioca, lentils and chickpeas, but again as you said they should only be used as a binder
> 
> 
> The comment about corn is not correct. That was just taken from another scare tactic website. The corn in any medium to high quality food, medium being something like Eagle, Eukanuba & Pro Plan, even Hill's, will be what is called #2 Corn, Annamaet and other foods like it will use #1 Corn. Both #1 and #2 are both considered human grade Corn types.
> 
> As far as digestibility goes, so long as it gelatinized and ground the starch is 97% digestible and the protein is about as digestible as fish protein. The reason why people think corn is not digestible is because the shell, or Pericarp, is not, but once it is ground the Pericarp is great fiber. Corn also happens to have 3 times the anti-cancer compounds as many green vegetables.
> 
> The mycotoxin issue can be a problem but the good companies will reject corn that has a certain moisture content automatically, and them test the rest. It has only be a problem with Diamond and Cargill.
> 
> 
> 
> Well there's a trust factor included in the mycotoxin issue, and considering many of these companies use corn is because its cheap and affordable way to raise the protein, if its not regulated properly I don't see it as worth using when there are higher quality better regulated alternatives. Although corn in many cases is equally digestible, it has a lower biological value and does not have the variety of amino acids as meats. The myth that a high protein dog diet leads to kidney issues started because many of dog foods were filled with corn and pea proteins, when it was the low quality and excessive amounts of these proteins that caused the issues. Even if the corn is human grade, there are still more mycotoxins than alternative options, I know we can't compare humans to canines but if we had diets consisting of 50% corn as many foods do, many issues would arrive in us too
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
Click to expand...


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## Sheldon

WasChampionFan said:


> Corn also happens to have 3 times the anti-cancer compounds as many green vegetables.


 *Can you direct me to a credible source regarding this quote? I just got off the phone with a university professor who specialized in canine nutrition and he has never heard of this, I would like to research that and some of your other points. Thank You
*


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## Tuco

Sheldon said:


> *Can you direct me to a credible source regarding this quote? I just got off the phone with a university professor who specialized in canine nutrition and he has never heard of this, I would like to research that and some of your other points. Thank You
> *


I've never heard of that too, in fact a study connected the excess consumption of GMO corn in rats with cancer, although after reading the study it is fairly flawed. Either way much of the corn in these foods in going to be Monsanto GMO corn, and my family has its own issues with that company but personally after reading many of the stories of Monsanto, I can't imagine anybody seeing them as anything but evil, much less wanting to support the company



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## Sheldon

Tuco said:


> I've never heard of that too


 Tuco......what happened to our corn nutritional expert?


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## WasChampionFan

That study was done by Cornell University by Professor Rui Hai Lui. I you read the study like I did you will see the tables comparing yellow corn to other grains and vegetables.


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## Sheldon

WasChampionFan said:


> That study was done by Cornell University by Professor Rui Hai Lui. I you read the study like I did you will see the tables comparing yellow corn to other grains and vegetables.


 Nope not familiar with this professors work.......would like to see this chart and accompanying peer review data, stating "Corn also happens to have 3 times the anti-cancer compounds as many green vegetables" 
Thank You


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## T&T

Tuco said:


> I've never heard of that too, in fact a study connected the excess consumption of GMO corn in rats with cancer, although after reading the study it is fairly flawed. Either way much of the corn in these foods in going to be Monsanto GMO corn, and my family has its own issues with that company but personally after reading many of the stories of Monsanto, I can't imagine anybody seeing them as anything but evil, much less wanting to support the company
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
You must be referring to Seralini's latest study Shock findings in new GMO study: Rats fed lifetime of GM corn grow horrifying tumors, 70% of females die early

Why do you say it's flawed ???
"conflicts of interest are so obvious here that they leave you speechless ! "

French Academy of Sciences: The GMO scandal - GMO Seralini

Debunking the French GMO tumor study is a tsunami of lies


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## goldentemperment

WasChampionFan said:


> That study was done by Cornell University by Professor Rui Hai Lui. I you read the study like I did you will see the tables comparing yellow corn to other grains and vegetables.


My understanding is that this study analyzed ferulic acid content in sweet corn. Is there any nutritional difference between sweet corn and dog-food quality corn?


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## Sheldon

goldentemperment said:


> My understanding is that this study analyzed ferulic acid content in sweet corn. Is there any nutritional difference between sweet corn and dog-food quality corn?


 The point is really moot because at the temperature they cook kibble any true antioxidant value is destroyed. Its more for a filler to add constancy to the mix in the processing. 
I'm just very interested in this statement about corn having 3 times the anti-cancer compounds as many green vegetables. No expert I have spoken with (that I trust) has ever heard of such information. This leads me to question other information as well.


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## T&T

goldentemperment said:


> My understanding is that this study analyzed ferulic acid content in sweet corn. Is there any nutritional difference between sweet corn and dog-food quality corn?


Unless certified organic or labelled non GMO, corn / soy / canola / vitamins & oils derived from these crops are 100% GMO. 
And no, there is nothing healthy about Monsanto's GM frankencrops.


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## Tuco

WasChampionFan said:


> That study was done by Cornell University by Professor Rui Hai Lui. I you read the study like I did you will see the tables comparing yellow corn to other grains and vegetables.


Please link 


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## goldentemperment

Sheldon said:


> The point is really moot because at the temperature they cook kibble any true antioxidant value is destroyed. Its more for a filler to add constancy to the mix in the processing.
> I'm just very interested in this statement about corn having 3 times the anti-cancer compounds as many green vegetables. No expert I have spoken with (that I trust) has ever heard of such information. This leads me to question other information as well.


This is a valid study conducted at Cornell in 2002 by Dr Liu, et al. The assertion was that heat was applied to *sweet corn *(purchased at a local market), antioxidant activity (specifically, ferulic acid) increased. Dr. Liu seems to be quite respected in his field, from what I've gathered.

Corn and other grains are great sources of ferulic acid, but I think that, at minimum, it's a stretch to assert that field corn will behave similarly in dog food because:

a. There's quite a bit of cooking that goes on in the dog food manufacturing process that I would expect would destroy the antioxidant benefits of ferulic acid
b. The genetic makeup of sweet corn is different than field corn. 

My understanding is the main difference between field corn and sweet corn is the presence of a gene in sweet corn that produces more sugar. That the corn in dog food is likely Monsanto throws a kink in how effectively we can state anything about the field corn, because, for all we know, they may have GMO'd some portion of the ferulic acid production out of the field corn.


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## goldentemperment

It does not appear that the article is available for free, but the abstract and location is at Processed Sweet Corn Has Higher Antioxidant Activity - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)

In it, the abstract admits that there's a corresponding vitamin C degradation that accompanies the greater availability of ferulic acid.


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## Tuco

goldentemperment said:


> It does not appear that the article is available for free, but the abstract and location is at Processed Sweet Corn Has Higher Antioxidant Activity - Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (ACS Publications)
> 
> In it, the abstract admits that there's a corresponding vitamin C degradation that accompanies the greater availability of ferulic acid.


Thank you very much for the link


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## MyBentley

goldentemperment said:


> This is a valid study conducted at Cornell in 2002 by Dr Liu, et al. The assertion was that heat was applied to *sweet corn *(purchased at a local market), antioxidant activity (specifically, ferulic acid) increased. Dr. Liu seems to be quite respected in his field, from what I've gathered.
> 
> Corn and other grains are great sources of ferulic acid, but I think that, at minimum, it's a stretch to assert that field corn will behave similarly in dog food because:
> 
> a. There's quite a bit of cooking that goes on in the dog food manufacturing process that I would expect would destroy the antioxidant benefits of ferulic acid
> b. The genetic makeup of sweet corn is different than field corn.
> 
> My understanding is the main difference between field corn and sweet corn is the presence of a gene in sweet corn that produces more sugar. That the corn in dog food is likely Monsanto throws a kink in how effectively we can state anything about the field corn, because, for all we know, they may have GMO'd some portion of the ferulic acid production out of the field corn.


I also spent some time trying to track down the research and read a brief outline of the study that indicated that corn was better than most grains in respect to antioxidants but I couldn't access any charts. And yes, Dr. Liu does seem to be highly qualified and respected in his field.

Your points a. and b. are well-taken IMO.


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