# Biting the Leash



## Golden999

My dog bites his leash almost constantly while out on walks. There is generally a lull in the middle of the walk where he lets up, but toward the beginning and the end, he is grabbing the leash and thrashing back and forth. I correct him and sometimes get him to momentarily stop the behavior, only for him to start up like two seconds later.

This is unacceptable to me as an owner. Not only does it provide wear and tear on the leash, but it makes it impossible to maintain a steady pace, and causes a spectacle. Not to mention, it is potentially unsafe to the dog when he decides to grab the leash and start thrashing around in the middle of crossing the street and such. I also don't think it makes walks the relaxing pack structure reinforcing behavior that he needs. 

Truthfully, it also makes me less apt to walk him as far as I'd like (Which I want to do for him because I know he loves exercise) -- I have health issues to begin with, which makes walking him a sacrifice for me sometimes, and when I have to deal with him biting and thrashing constantly and keep stopping to correct him, it wears down both my physical and emotional stamina a lot more quickly than a calm steady walk would.

We are actually ahead of where I thought we'd be with him pulling ahead -- he does pull several times on the average walk, but I stop and look at him and he usually lets up and we can continue. It's an issue, but I feel like we're making progress, versus the biting the leash and thrashing, which is actually getting worse as time passes.

To provide some background, he has some trouble with play biting and jumping up on furniture in general -- and doesn't really take to correction well, even though I use multiple methods.

On the other hand, he is wonderfully house trained, and only eliminates outside when brought out to the yard frequently throughout the day. He also will follow me inside from outside and sit 9 times of 10 when I call him now -- he had had some trouble with that, but I started feeding him treats when he did it, and he caught on pretty fast. 

He seems highly food motivated, but it's hard to translate that into stopping negative behavior the way I can use it to reinforce positive behavior, and it isn't an option on walks anyway, because he can smell treats and will just maul my pocket if one is in there (I keep my treats in high places and only take one out at the appropriate time to get him to go inside his kennel/crate or come inside from the yard).

He doesn't seem like an untrainable dog by any stretch of the imagination, but he is having a lot of trouble in particular areas.

Any pointers? Simple ones would be best probably, I try to read articles on training for this stuff and my mind sort of clouds up somewhere in the beginning of the 20 pages on whatever they are trying to instruct on. 

He is about 3 1/2 months old, and a very smart dog. Everyone mentions it to me, and I agree. It is amazing some of the things he can think through. So I know he can get the intellectual side of commands and training, he is just very stubborn and, I think, kind of on the dominant side for a golden puppy (Which granted isn't very dominant relative to most dogs of other breeds  ). He likes to bark to summon neighbors to the fence outside and frequently barks at me when frustrated, which isn't yet a huge issue, but I think relates to him not being the world's most submissive dog.

He is extremely cute and a great companion, we just need to work on some things with him.


----------



## fostermom

Two things I would suggest. Buy a chain leash. Dogs don't like holding them in their mouths. Second, carry along a soft toy for him to carry in his mouth. Goldens are mouthy by nature and maybe he just needs something to hold.

How far are you walking him? At 3 1/2 months old, he shouldn't be walked too terribly far.


----------



## 58loosy

Lucy walked wondefully til about 6 mos. all of a sudden she jumped up to grab leash and with it my hands and arms were getting nailed, she would only do it a couple of times. I found my self doing shorter walks. I was also getting frustrated, what worked for me was dropping the leash, she immediately stopped and looked around, then I picked it up and continued only if she was calm. Now at a year she pretty much has stopped it, never does it on exciting walks only boring neighborhood walks and only maybe after greeting someone and doesn't want to go on. I had someone say to take a squirt gun and spray w/ water, Lucy loves to drink water from it.


----------



## pwrstrk02

i know ill catch flack on this one. I DONT DO IT TO THE EXTENT TO RIP TEETH OUT. early on i think every pup thinks that the leash is a toy. i give jerks on the leash when they bite it, they learn real quick that having that in their mouth doesnt feel very good. the leash is a traing tool for you, not the dog.


----------



## fostermom

pwrstrk02 said:


> i know ill catch flack on this one. I DONT DO IT TO THE EXTENT TO RIP TEETH OUT. early on i think every pup thinks that the leash is a toy. i give jerks on the leash when they bite it, they learn real quick that having that in their mouth doesnt feel very good. the leash is a traing tool for you, not the dog.


I totally disagree. First of all, this is a 3 1/2 month old puppy. Second of all, there are plenty of non-harsh ways to correct this while the puppy is so young.


----------



## inge

Tess did the same thing when she was that age. I bought a small chain and put that between the collar and the leash. She didn't like that at all. Now I don't use that anymore, I just stop and freeze, don't react at all. As that is not what she wants, because it's boring, she usually stops the biting and sits down. At that moment I praise her for the sit and we go again. Sometimes we need to do this trick three times in a row, but most of the times she doesn't do it anymore. I would not drop the leash, if there's a bunny around she'll sure go after it. Good luck! With consistency it will get better!

P.S. I would never, ever jerk the leash when it's in the pup's mouth. Sure, a leash is a training tool for me, but also for the dog! And having the collar and leash on should be positive, not something frightening.


----------



## paula bedard

The chain does work or you might try using a harness to walk him. It's more difficult to turn and grab the leash when it's on a harness. He's still growing though, so he'll be growing in and out of harnesses. My son's pup does the same thing. A harness put a stop to it.


----------



## 58loosy

When I said drop the leash you have to know if your pup will bolt, Lucy doesn't, I also did the freezing and not letting them get to your hands, it worked but not always, Lucy did it for a few mos.


----------



## Golden999

fostermom said:


> Two things I would suggest. Buy a chain leash. Dogs don't like holding them in their mouths.


That is a good idea. Thank you. I could definitely see that working.



> Second, carry along a soft toy for him to carry in his mouth. Goldens are mouthy by nature and maybe he just needs something to hold.


He does love his soft chew toys, but I don't see it working logistically on a walk. He'd be dropping it every 20 seconds when something interesting came along and it'd fall to me, with a bad back, to try to bend over and pick it up 20 times a walk -- which is a good way to blow out my back completely and not be able to move (It's happened before -- not with the dog, but with other things).



> How far are you walking him? At 3 1/2 months old, he shouldn't be walked too terribly far.


I don't know how I'd guage distance, but I'd say a medium amount. It's significantly more than just around the block or something, but we're not exactly walking a marathon route either (I couldn't do that if I wanted to). He's often still rowdy when we're done even when I am so sore I can barely move and completely exhausted (Granted, my health is poor so that's happens more quickly for me than the average person). He has long legs and a lot of energy for a dog his age. I've had healthier relatives and friends who have come over (or have had him over) and done some really long walks with him - one even likes to run short distances with him - and he stays enthusiastic through the whole things, they say. I don't think exhaustion is an issue with him. He has lots of energy.



58loosy said:


> Lucy walked wondefully til about 6 mos. all of a sudden she jumped up to grab leash and with it my hands and arms were getting nailed, she would only do it a couple of times. I found my self doing shorter walks. I was also getting frustrated, what worked for me was dropping the leash, she immediately stopped and looked around, then I picked it up and continued only if she was calm.


If I dropped the leash with him, he'd bolt off in search of people to jump on, play with, and bite. His personality is very outgoing and not naturally very deferential.



pwrstrk02 said:


> i know ill catch flack on this one. I DONT DO IT TO THE EXTENT TO RIP TEETH OUT. early on i think every pup thinks that the leash is a toy. i give jerks on the leash when they bite it, they learn real quick that having that in their mouth doesnt feel very good. the leash is a traing tool for you, not the dog.


I've tried it. He takes it as a sign I am playing tug of war with him and immediately jumps up and grabs the leash back with his mouth. He thinks it's great fun.


----------



## 58loosy

Yep, it does seem like a game, she would do tug a war if I let her which I wouldn't, it is like the leash is a extension of your hand so when I dropped it the game was over. This is my 3rd golden and 2nd springer and they never did this, after getting on the forum most do it. At 4 mos. old I wouldn't have dropped the leash either. After trying different things, that seemed to work the best for her but she was probably 10 mos. before I thought of it, hopefully you can get her to stop it before that age. I'm sure she will out grow it some time.


----------



## jackie_hubert

It's a puppy thing. Cosmo's beeing doing it since 7.5 weeks. I agree it's unacceptable. We are currently trying a harness but he still tries to go for it, contorting his body to get at the leash. Yesterday on our walk he jumped at it and ripped out a baby tooth. There was blood everywhere. Didn't seem to faze him though. He just continued jumping at it, blood and all. I find carrying a toy to throw for him and carry helps a little, though he only carries it for a few meters and then it startes again. Saying "no" or "drop it" works but then it become a game. I guess I'm just going to keep trying until he grows out of it. I'm planning to get the chain leash soon.


----------



## Golden999

jackie_hubert said:


> Saying "no" or "drop it" works but then it become a game.


Same here. He'll sometimes drop it when I say "no" or "drop it", but he'll grab it again 3 seconds later. I've literally been stopping and starting every few steps sometimes getting him to drop it only to have to do it again a step or two down the sidewalk -- and this can continue for quite some time. I've tried praising him when he is not biting the leash, even putting my hand gently around his jaw as a reprimand when he bites (I know this is old school and people don't like it these days, but it worked for my childhood pet when my parents did it, so I'll pull it out as a last resort sometimes), nothing works, positive or negative. Sometimes I have even stopped and looked him in the eye and started lecturing him in a soft sing-songy voice as one would a small child about how to walk responsibility and how it is better for us both when he does (That obviously didn't work either  ).



> I guess I'm just going to keep trying until he grows out of it. I'm planning to get the chain leash soon.


It does sound like the chain leash is the way to go. I honestly can't see, given what I've experienced with him on walks and his general personality, him resisting biting a soft object that dances in front of him constantly, no matter what I say or do. Seems like this would be a good work-around that would save both he and I a lot of stress.

For budgetary reasons, I'll probably give it a couple more weeks, but unless it gets better between now and then, I think I'll order one of these metal leashes. I don't really see the downside, if dogs really don't want to bite metal to the extent people say. It basically behaves like an ordinary leash other than that, right?


----------



## inge

You can save some money by just going to a hardware store and have them clip off about 3 feet of chain they have on a roll. Two attachment clips can link the chain to your normal leash.


----------



## jackie_hubert

inge said:


> You can save some money by just going to a hardware store and have them clip off about 3 feet of chain they have on a roll. Two attachment clips can link the chain to your normal leash.


Very smart! Thanks!


----------



## Golden999

Golden999 said:


> It does sound like the chain leash is the way to go.


Although, this is the same dog I've seen trying to chew on gravel, concrete, bricks, etc. (I stop him as soon as I catch him, of course), so it's not a sure thing that he wouldn't try to chew on a metal leash. Sounds like it's worth a try, though.


----------



## FinnTastic

I don't know if this was mentioned, but you could try Apple Bitter on the leash.


----------



## Golden999

FinnTastic said:


> I don't know if this was mentioned, but you could try Apple Bitter on the leash.


Is this the product you mean?:








http://www.amazon.com/Bitter-Apple-Dogs-32-ounce/dp/B0006G5REC/ref=pd_sim_k_8

I may order that and a chain-link leash in a couple weeks when I have a few nickles to rub together. I as might as well try both at once and see if they combine to be an obstacle his bittiness can't overcome. 

If anyone has some suggestions about how to stop him from play-biting people all the time, I'd appreciate those also. I actually have another thread about it here on the site somewhere, but I as might as well try to reach as wide an audience as possible, because it is a real problem -- he drew blood playing with someone today and I am worried about how people may react if he keeps it up (He is really big for his age). I don't suppose random people would react very well to be sprayed with apple bite? Probably not.


----------



## RedDogs

1) Hands on puppy should be a good thing. Especially around his mouth. Not as a punishment... which he may perceive as punishment or as play...and if he thinks it's play... that won't help you to get rid of the behavior.
2) Recognize this is puppy behavior. Take a deep breath when it happens.
3) Take treats on your walk. When he gets silly, get a sit. Feed a treat. Move one step. Sit. Treat. Repeat as much as needed.
4) Take a toy when you go for a walk. Let him carry it or play with it. Stop to play with it and do some training. Long braided fleece tugs work well for this. You can get scrap fleece at the fabric store for a few dollars. Cut it into long strips. Braid it. Works great!
5) Practice leave it with the leash. Puppy/training class will be a good place for this... you can also see a good training video: 



 Start with food in your hand. And then put the leash in your hand. Practice this at home first. And when your puppy is doing well, try it on walks. stop to play this game.
6) Set your puppy up for success. Make his life structured. When puppies don't know how to interact...they often use their teeth.


----------



## HurricaneGwensMom

Gwen did this a LOT after we brought her home. I attributed it to fear of new surroundings. She'd grab the leash and whine and cry and pull back toward the house. She rarely does it these days because she knows she doesn't get a rise out of me anymore, but she still does it on occasion. It seems our dogs are about the same age, so maybe this will help.

What's helped is just stopping. That's not what they want on a walk, typically. I just stop dead and make her sit to distract her. We've also been working hard on comprehending "drop it" and she has gotten much better. So I'll stop, make her sit, have her drop it, and only once she's calmed down will she continue. Sometimes, when she's having a really ornery day, she'll start walking behind me and jumping up on me with excitement - still not quite sure what to do about that, but so far I've been ignoring her and just walking a little faster, forcing her to adjust. Since that's not an option for you, just like dropping the leash isn't an option (if it helps, Gwen's taken off on a walk when she was nicely running around without a leash and decided I wasn't going home fast enough for her, she waited for me at the door. No more off-leash time until she behaves better.) Maybe distraction will help, though.


----------



## Chloe Braun

paula bedard said:


> The chain does work or you might try using a harness to walk him. It's more difficult to turn and grab the leash when it's on a harness. He's still growing though, so he'll be growing in and out of harnesses. My son's pup does the same thing. A harness put a stop to it.


 
I really like the idea of using a harness. A few benefit here which include it is very hard to acutally bit the harness unlike a leash/chain. It gives your dog the feeling of being free, plus it doesn't putting any strain on the neck.

good luck


----------



## Golden999

RedDogs said:


> 1) Hands on puppy should be a good thing. Especially around his mouth. Not as a punishment... which he may perceive as punishment or as play...and if he thinks it's play... that won't help you to get rid of the behavior.


He definitely knows he is being reprimanded when hands are put around his snout. I do it very gently with no force, but he often whines or tries to pull away and it is basically the only thing that will ever get him to stop for more than two seconds when he wants to pull the leash and jump around and yank me in various directions. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it seems like he basically gets uncomfortable, knows I'm serious, and walks on the lead normally without biting for a few minutes. This is especially effective if I lean in and stare deeply into his eyes as I do it.

I've had relatives hold his snout for longer than I am comfortable doing myself when he's bitten them and he very rarely misbehaves around them anymore. Honestly, I often wonder if a lot of his antics stem from the fact that I adore him and am a really soft touch around him sometimes. I tend to softly talk to him throughout the day because he likes my voice, even though I know he doesn't understand, and praise him a lot and toss him treats and whatnot.

My parents have done this, the snout method, to very good effect with their dogs. I've even seen one dog essentially do it to another when it was misbehaving, even though they were owned by owners who never used the method.

It used to be in all the dog books, too. And these books sold because people bought them and liked them enough to recommend to their friends.

I know it has fallen out of fashion and is even frowned upon now in a lot of veterinary circles, but I have my doubts about their reasoning. One thing they note is that original research about methods like this was based on wolves randomly grouped together versus wolf families in the wild. However, it seems to me that a human or humans and a dog or dogs living together are more like the impromptu packs formed by wolves grouped together by researchers than a biological wolf family. I think my dog knows I am not his biological father. 

The other issue is that I think that there is a bias in the pet world towards treating pets as humans and against negative reinforcement. And, actually, I sympathize with that bias. I love my dog dearly, and I really enjoy spending time with him and petting him and playing with him. However, I think dogs need to be met on their own terms to some degree, and that the way dogs naturally interact with each other is different than the way humans interact with each other.

Even today, this stuff isn't unanimously rejected by experts. A lot of dog trainers and authors, albeit now a minority, still swear by it.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

A puppy this young should have only moderate exercise... and certainly no jogging with a person until much much older. It could cause lifelong joint issues. No problem with them running on grass as they'll self regulate, but out on leash jogging with you is not advised. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=67945&highlight=jogging+puppy


----------



## momtoMax

As you don't have a dog but a wee little pup, I seriously think it's only going to have a negative effect on your puppy by the whole snout holding thing compounded by you letting strangers do it. 
I have a friend who is in your camp - thinking fear of physical punishment is the way to go. I have done the positive training route as I personally would never hit or do something to my dog that I know he very much dislikes as a punishment. In the beginning, her pup was much better behaved than mine. Fast forward to now, her dog doesn't come (has almost been hit by a car several times because of it,) jumps, and in general doesn't know or listen to all the commands I've taught my dog. My friend gets very angry at her dog when she calls her after she's done something wrong and the dog won't come. She doesn't get that she created this situation.

A situation you very well could be creating with unrealistic expectations for what dog behavior you will accept at 3 months old and grabbing of the snout - let's fast forward a year just like we did with my dog and my friends dog. Your dog now either - is very sensitive about having his face touched by anyone, even you and may be afraid when anyone goes to grab his snout. He dislikes it enough and it feels threatened enough - you have a dog who bites either you or a stranger. Like my friend, you blame the dog instead of seeing that you created this problem yourself and you are the one that let your dog down.

May I earnestly suggest you learn a lot about normal puppy behavior and what you'll just have to accept as normal dog behavior whether you appreciate it or not. There are so many threads here with really great positive training methods that WORK really well with no long term ill side affects. 


Oh and PS. We are not dogs. An FYI - your dog knows that. If he does something you don't like and you repremand him like the alpha would in a dog pack - hey. You are NOT a dog. He will not see your abuse as he would a dog. I really don't understand why people even think that. The good thing about understanding dog body language/behavior helps you to understand what your dog is feeling/thinking/etc, not the other way around. You dog is trying to figure out human behavior and applying that if you hug another human often and laugh and smile, hugs are good. Your human hugs you, your human is happy. 
My Max is going to be a phenomenal dog due to all my hard work and patience (someday, someday, someday) - I've seen moments of that. My friends dog is never going to get there if my friend keeps using her "tried and true" training methods. Fear is unnecessary and can be dangerous to use it as a method on an animal with much less understanding than a human.


----------



## solinvictus

"My parents have done this, the snout method, to very good effect with their dogs

It used to be in all the dog books,"

Many people back in the 40's and 50's thought it was totally acceptable to let their dogs roam the neighborhood. Back then it wasn't normal to spay and neuter.

Lots of those dogs lived wonderful lives. Followed the kids all over the neighborhood. 
etc.

Today we know that it really isn't acceptable to let dogs roam and it is better in many cases to spay and neuter. 

So, if I followed your logic I would accept that in my grandparents time a roaming dog was okay so in 2010 it is okay also.

Taking this back to holding your dogs nose....

When the trainers from before taught this they didn't have the knowledge base that we do now. Did it work. Many times yes. 
Is it good for your relationship with your dog. Most likely not.

You state that she pulls away and whines.
Your dog is not comfortable with this. If the dog is not comfortable in this then your dog is learning that your are predictable and do things that are not comfortable to her.
It breaks the bond. It breaks her trust in you.

If you feel that it is okay for your dog to fear you. If that is the relationship you want with your dog then continue to follow old school methods.

In the posts back when you were looking for a puppy I didn't get from you that you wanted to just have a dog that would be with you and depend on you just because of fear.

I got that you wanted a loving companion with a solid bond of trust and love.

RedDogs gives really good advice and if you want that loving companion work toward it following her advice.
I also seriously suggest that you find a way to go to a professional training class with your pup. Training classes imo are more about helping the owner to learn how to train more than about anything else. I think we all benefit by taking these classes, my suggestion isn't just for you. There have been great strides since the 80's in training and we can all benefit by what is out there. 
There are some very good trainers out there that follow a more positive training protocol.


----------



## Golden999

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> A puppy this young should have only moderate exercise... and certainly no jogging with a person until much much older. It could cause lifelong joint issues. No problem with them running on grass as they'll self regulate, but out on leash jogging with you is not advised. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=67945&highlight=jogging+puppy


When I walk him, I stay on the sidewalk and try to let him walk on the grass next to it whenever possible (i.e. whenever there is grass next to the sidewalk -- which isn't all the time, but a portion of the time). I can't physically jog him myself anyhow -- though the dog certainly tries unsuccessfully to get me to pick up the pace sometimes.  I'll discuss it with the relative who sometimes do it, though.



momtoMax said:


> As you don't have a dog but a wee little pup


Not so wee anymore, actually -- he is gigantic for his age. The vet didn't seem to think it was a problem, but he's definitely a big fellow. If he were a smaller breed, he'd be done growing. I don't know if I can project out early growth to determine his adult size or if it's possible his growth will radically slow down, but it certainly looks like he is going to be a really big dog (even for his breed).  That'd be mostly a good thing -- I like big dogs -- but the bigger he is, the more important he be able to interact with people in a way deemed socially acceptable for dogs.



> I seriously think it's only going to have a negative effect on your puppy by the whole snout holding thing compounded by you letting strangers do it.


That hasn't been my experience with the dogs I've seen trained with this method.



> A situation you very well could be creating with unrealistic expectations for what dog behavior you will accept at 3 months old and grabbing of the snout - let's fast forward a year just like we did with my dog and my friends dog. Your dog now either - is very sensitive about having his face touched by anyone, even you and may be afraid when anyone goes to grab his snout. He dislikes it enough and it feels threatened enough - you have a dog who bites either you or a stranger. Like my friend, you blame the dog instead of seeing that you created this problem yourself and you are the one that let your dog down.


Far more often, my hands are near his face when I am petting him or playing with him, and he doesn't exhibit any fear or dislike in those situations. I'll hold his snout gently , causing him no pain, only when I can't get him to listen any other way.



> May I earnestly suggest you learn a lot about normal puppy behavior and what you'll just have to accept as normal dog behavior whether you appreciate it or not.


I have experience with adult dogs who don't do some of these behaviors, or do them only very rarely -- in many cases because they were trained well, using these methods. My beloved childhood pet was one of them.



> There are so many threads here with really great positive training methods that WORK really well with no long term ill side affects.


Do they really work? It seems like they sometimes work, and sometimes don't. I look at a lot of these threads and try many of them, they are usually my first effort. Some are effective, some are not. I think sometimes it varies from dog to dog. There is not a single right way to train a dog.



> Oh and PS. We are not dogs. An FYI - your dog knows that. If he does something you don't like and you repremand him like the alpha would in a dog pack - hey. You are NOT a dog. He will not see your abuse as he would a dog.


Abuse? Really? Holding a snout gently for a few seconds causing no physical pain, on rare occasions when he is completely out of control and can't be calmed down by other means (Basically a danger to himself and others in some extreme cases), is abuse? You talk as though I backhand the little guy or something, when, actually holding his snout gently mimics the behavior of other dogs toward each other when dogs are grouped together -- I'm acting no differently than his mother or father or brother might in a more natural situation.

Honestly, I am beginning to think a lot of the online pet community is completely off it's rocker. They don't want poor people to own dogs. They don't want people to ever reprimand their dogs. Only the $50 bag of dog food will do in some people's minds -- perhaps I should cook him whole chickens every day and create a giant throne for him. When he bites me, perhaps I should throw him a party.

I really love my dog, in a way he's like a son or a brother to me. He's my buddy. But, in the end, he is a dog, and dog's benefit from being given a clear view of where they stand and how they should behave. I wonder where people's perspective has gone.

I've already been banned from one of these places. Maybe I just need to buy a Caeser Milan book or something and forget about the Internet. He seems a bit harsher than I am, but It seems like I'm living in a different world from a lot of the folks here, completely and utterly. At least Milan seems like someone who lives somewhere on the same planet as me -- albeit not quite the same zip code, because I love baby talking to my dog and petting him a ton.



solinvictus said:


> Many people back in the 40's and 50's thought it was totally acceptable to let their dogs roam the neighborhood. Back then it wasn't normal to spay and neuter.
> 
> Lots of those dogs lived wonderful lives. Followed the kids all over the neighborhood.
> etc.
> 
> Today we know that it really isn't acceptable to let dogs roam and it is better in many cases to spay and neuter.
> 
> So, if I followed your logic I would accept that in my grandparents time a roaming dog was okay so in 2010 it is okay also.


The reasons I don't let my dog roam anywhere without me mostly have to do with human issues. Unfortunately, at least in this day and age, a dog roaming lose could get stolen, abused by malicious people, or hit by a car. In a world where people were all nice and trustworthy and there no cars, though, there probably wouldn't be anything wrong with a dog roaming around or anything. It's the same with human children, really -- parents now have to keep a close eye on them outdoors because of a lot of negative things humans could do involving them, not really because of anything innate.

I don't think people in the 40s and 50s were necessarily wrong to let their dogs roam, it's just that we now live in different times, and a lot of things are really common that make it less viable in the modern world.

And I'm not really sold on spaying and neutering as being the right call for every pet and every situation. It is the right call for some pets and some situations, certainly, but I don't think it is unreasonable not to do it if the owner has really thought it through.



> When the trainers from before taught this they didn't have the knowledge base that we do now.


Many trainers still do it today. They are a minority now, but it is definitely a school of thought.



> Your dog is not comfortable with this. If the dog is not comfortable in this then your dog is learning that your are predictable and do things that are not comfortable to her.
> It breaks the bond. It breaks her trust in you.
> 
> If you feel that it is okay for your dog to fear you. If that is the relationship you want with your dog then continue to follow old school methods.
> 
> In the posts back when you were looking for a puppy I didn't get from you that you wanted to just have a dog that would be with you and depend on you just because of fear.
> 
> I got that you wanted a loving companion with a solid bond of trust and love.


I love my dog deeply and I want him to love me. However, I also want him to respect me and obey me. The second part isn't because I am a jerk who needs to be in charge of every situation, it's because we live in a world run by humans, and not dogs, and thus there are certain things dogs need to know that they can't understand at an intuitive level (i.e. even play biting is bad because someone may take it horribly wrong, you can't lay down in the middle of a street and roll around because a car might hit you, etc..) unless they are taught by someone they respect.

I think if you could see me with my dog for a day, you'd see most of it is spent comforting him when he gets scared and talking nicely to him and petting him and playing with him and so forth and generally being a very loving owner. But just like raising a human child, sometimes you need to put your foot down a little if you want them to be well-adjusted functional members of society.

I do use positive training methods where I can and think they are viable. He gets treats and ice cubes for coming inside when called and sitting down, or going to his crate. I pet him a lot when he does the right thing. There is definitely a place for all that. But it's not the only thing that works, and it doesn't always work for everything -- at least that's been my experience and the experience of many other dog owners I know.


----------



## momtoMax

Thank you Golden999 for suggesting that me, off my rocker, not wanting poor people to own dogs suggests that I am not poor. Ooohhhhh you think I'm rich. I LOVE that. And I'd also like to thank you for suggesting that all poor people use negative "training" methods and that's why uppity rich folk like me don't want you poor people to have them. Yes, you're right. I am rich and can afford to buy the hotdogs to train my dog through positive reinforcement - which by the way - does take longer than through inducing fear but in the end, you end up with a dog that not only respects you, but doesn't fear you and is confident, friendly, and well rounded.

I can tell by your response to these last posts that you aren't going to change your ways/listen to the advice we insanely deluded dog=human child people are giving you. You can paint me any way you want to but that doesn't mean you have an accurate picture. Sol nor myself are off our rockers, nor do we not see our dogs as dogs- and as I see it, you are uneducated and behind in the times. If you can train your dog to do what you want him to do without harming him or scaring him, the person who still uses those barbaric and unnecessary methods is the person with the problem - not me. There really is so much more I could say about statements in your post but I get that it would be pointess to do so. You can't hear me so I'll just stop talking.

PS> If you really want to treat the dog like another dog would, you'd be better off growling and biting him because that's what dogs do to correct another dog. Good luck with that.


----------



## Golden999

momtoMax said:


> Thank you Golden999 for suggesting that me, off my rocker, not wanting poor people to own dogs suggests that I am not poor. Ooohhhhh you think I'm rich. I LOVE that. And I'd also like to thank you for suggesting that all poor people use negative "training" methods and that's why uppity rich folk like me don't want you poor people to have them. Yes, you're right. I am rich and can afford to buy the hotdogs to train my dog through positive reinforcement - which by the way - does take longer than through inducing fear but in the end, you end up with a dog that not only respects you, but doesn't fear you and is confident, friendly, and well rounded.
> 
> I can tell by your response to these last posts that you aren't going to change your ways/listen to the advice we insanely deluded dog=human child people are giving you. You can paint me any way you want to but that doesn't mean you have an accurate picture. Sol nor myself are off our rockers, nor do we not see our dogs as dogs- and as I see it, you are uneducated and behind in the times. If you can train your dog to do what you want him to do without harming him or scaring him, the person who still uses those barbaric and unnecessary methods is the person with the problem - not me. There really is so much more I could say about statements in your post but I get that it would be pointess to do so. You can't hear me so I'll just stop talking.
> 
> PS> If you really want to treat the dog like another dog would, you'd be better off growling and biting him because that's what dogs do to correct another dog. Good luck with that.


You're taking my comments too personally. They were really just general examples of the frustration I'm sometimes having dealing with the Internet dog community. They don't all apply to everyone, of course.

I was really hoping I could make this forum stuff work, because I think it would benefit me to learn from what other people do with their dogs, not to blindly emulate it, but to consider it and adapt it to my situation where I think it would work. I like the idea -- in theory. But I'm not great with people and it's sort of turning into a typical "Me and people" thing. I do better with a small core group of folks I mostly get along with and then just casual acquaintances with everyone else where I can be friendly and say hi and leave it at that.

So, I think I should pack it in on the forum stuff. You're partly right -- I am going to do what I want to do. That's who I am. I like advice, but as something to consider, not as something to override my own free will and follow slavishly. I'm sorry you have trouble coping with that, but it's the way things are.

Mods -- Is there any easy way of deleting my threads and closing my account? I think I've kind of played this out and given it a lot of tries and it just isn't working for me. I'd rather just deal with my dog on my own and with the help of people who understand me better.


----------



## Charliethree

Wow!! This is interesting - the lady asks for help - she doesn't like the help she is given so - resorts to personal attacks. I too am soo against physical punishment in training a dog - for the simple reason - it is not necessary- and it can easily escalate from a simple 'gentle tap' to a violent beating when the 'tap' no longer gets results - it simply does NO good. I am sure the person that beat the crap out of my dog thought he was 'teaching him something' ???-- he did - he taught him NOT to trust, he taught him to fear all people, and he taught him to read people very carefully and to know when that person is angry or frustrated and to STAY AWAY. 
She should take the PUPPY out in the yard, train him to walk on leash there, without the distraction and excitement of the big world. When he grabs the leash - drop it and walk away - he will soon learn that the fun stops when he is doing that, repeat as often as necessary but do this in a confined space. She should also remember she has a PUPPY not an adult dog who is already trained.


----------



## solinvictus

Not poor but not rich but sitting on the couch with MomtoMax as we are off our rockers. 

At this point in time I only own one dog. I choose to own one dog so that I do have enough money to care for him. He is 22 months old today. I spent a considerable amount of time training him to be a very happy, healthy obedient dog. He cannot talk but by his actions from my human point of view he has total respect for me. He has absolutely no fear of me. 
At 3 months old at times he listened well at other times he was a holy terror. I have been determined to raise him with love and kindness. It worked/works.
Being loving and kind does not mean that he wasn't taught boundries, rules and manners. It takes a lot more effort to be smart enough to train a dog without using fear tactics to get what you want.
And on the roaming/spay etc I was attempting to use it as an analogy about training yesterday vs today. I think it fell kind of flat. Sorry about that.

"I've already been banned from one of these places."

I haven't seen any reason to ban you from the forum. (but I don't have any say either way). I will agree to disagree with you and bow out of your thread as gracefully as I can.
Not everyone thinks alike. 
I do wish you all the luck with your puppy and I also wish you have a wonderful relationship as the years go by.


----------



## animallover

I think our pups must be related. Emma is a barker and a growler when she doesn't get her way. Not always but sometimes... I don't like it but since she has had to go to the vet often lately I've had to postpone training. Our trainer did say she is "dominant. But she is getting better. Sounds like your pup is really doing quite well for so young. When our bridge girl Hannah grabbed her leash we just laughed. We may be too laid back, sounds like!! Good luck.


----------



## momtoMax

Golden999 said:


> You're taking my comments too personally. They were really just general examples of the frustration I'm sometimes having dealing with the Internet dog community. They don't all apply to everyone, of course.
> 
> I was really hoping I could make this forum stuff work, because I think it would benefit me to learn from what other people do with their dogs, not to blindly emulate it, but to consider it and adapt it to my situation where I think it would work. I like the idea -- in theory. But I'm not great with people and it's sort of turning into a typical "Me and people" thing. I do better with a small core group of folks I mostly get along with and then just casual acquaintances with everyone else where I can be friendly and say hi and leave it at that.
> 
> So, I think I should pack it in on the forum stuff. You're partly right -- I am going to do what I want to do. That's who I am. I like advice, but as something to consider, not as something to override my own free will and follow slavishly. I'm sorry you have trouble coping with that, but it's the way things are.
> 
> Mods -- Is there any easy way of deleting my threads and closing my account? I think I've kind of played this out and given it a lot of tries and it just isn't working for me. I'd rather just deal with my dog on my own and with the help of people who understand me better.


You know, I don't get why people will take something they don't want to hear, write comments that ARE insulting and then be like, oh, this forum stuff is soooooo terrible because this person didn't say what I wanted them to and has a completely different viewpoint from mine which is of course the right one and had the audaucity to say something not so nice back to me. I mean, it's okay if I do it, but for someone else? She's so ruined it for me. Shame, shame on you!

When you quote someone and comment on each section - those comments are kind of directed at the person you are quoting. I honestly don't think I was being mean but sarcastic this time around, oh yes. I'm so sorry that my point of view does not coincide with yours but hey, that's going to happen in any forum. You say there is no one right way to train and I agree but there are wrong ways and that is MHO. Making your dog uncomfortable and making him overly sensitive to being touched on his face is one of those wrong ways IMO. 



You think you're right, some others may agree. Some may disagree. I happen to be one of those. Forum:
*place to express yourself:* a medium in which the public may debate an issue or express opinions, e.g. a magazine or newspaper
I am EDITING to add, I am only one person - if you don't like what I have to say or others have to say, there is an ignore option. Ah, if only in life it were that easy. :doh:


----------



## fostermom

I will never understand why people will join a forum, ask for advice and then give every reason why they can't follow the advice that's given. Just about every bit of advice that was given was really quite good and delivered in a very polite manner, yet almost all of it was countered with why it just wouldn't work for the OP. It's quite frustrating and makes people not want to offer suggestions, though we keep it up because we want what is very best for each and every dog.


----------



## rob1

Heh- Lucky loves to tug on his leash as well. 2 things work really well for me- bitter apple, as already mentioned it. I put some in a bowl and actually soak the leash in it- then hang it up to dry a bit. That will totally do the trick with him- I do that when I'm taking him to class.

For everyday walks- I usually pick up a stick and give it to him. He prances around all proud of himself and 'look at my stick!'. Heh. And if he drops it- which he inevitably does- no big deal. He's usually calmed down enough by then he doesn't bite at the leash. And if he starts up? Well- there's always another stick laying around somewhere.


----------



## jackie_hubert

RedDogs said:


> 1) Hands on puppy should be a good thing. Especially around his mouth. Not as a punishment... which he may perceive as punishment or as play...and if he thinks it's play... that won't help you to get rid of the behavior.
> 2) Recognize this is puppy behavior. Take a deep breath when it happens.
> 3) Take treats on your walk. When he gets silly, get a sit. Feed a treat. Move one step. Sit. Treat. Repeat as much as needed.
> 4) Take a toy when you go for a walk. Let him carry it or play with it. Stop to play with it and do some training. Long braided fleece tugs work well for this. You can get scrap fleece at the fabric store for a few dollars. Cut it into long strips. Braid it. Works great!
> 5) Practice leave it with the leash. Puppy/training class will be a good place for this... you can also see a good training video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flGFpCWNciE Start with food in your hand. And then put the leash in your hand. Practice this at home first. And when your puppy is doing well, try it on walks. stop to play this game.
> 6) Set your puppy up for success. Make his life structured. When puppies don't know how to interact...they often use their teeth.


I think the best piece of advise is number 2. Unfortunately for us the treat thing has conditioned him to actually put the leash in his mouth :doh:. 

Here's my scenario: He grabs the leash, I stop and say nothing, he automatically stops and drops the leash. He sits and looks at me with a grin on his face. I say "good boy" and sometimes give him a treat. We move, then the cycle immediately starts over again. It's clearly a game, and a game that sometimes results in treats! lol. Sometimes I just say "good boy" and then lure him with a toy dangling in front of his face. If we move at least a little while without him chewing on the leash he gets a treat for moving without grabing the leash. So what does he do next? He starts grabbing the leash immediately because somehow he'll eventually get a treat out of it one way or another if he just keeps it up. Man, this dog is a lot smarter than the guide dog we used to have. Our trainer always says that too when she's with him in daycare. Doh!

My two cents, I think the key is calming the dog down. If the situation gets in any ways exciting I think it just keeps going and going. And it's clearly a puppy thing...I hope it just ends soon...at least we're all in the same boat it seems! However we deal with it or not. 

Oh, btw, tried the harness with a back attachment and it just made him jump around like crazy. More fun! When he finally reach it he hung from it and ripped out his tooth! At least it was a babytooth that was coming out anyways!


----------



## iansgran

My next to last memory of my Subiaco was when the vet tech took him away to insert the port in his leg for the meds to euthanize him (he was 11 and had cancer) he walked out of the room with the leash in his mouth--and he hadn't done that in ages. Taking the leash in their mouths isn't really that big a deal compared to so many other things.


----------



## momtoMax

Ian'sgran said:


> My next to last memory of my Subiaco was when the vet tech took him away to insert the port in his leg for the meds to euthanize him (he was 11 and had cancer) he walked out of the room with the leash in his mouth--and he hadn't done that in ages. Taking the leash in their mouths isn't really that big a deal compared to so many other things.


 
big mental hugs to you.


----------



## jweisman54

Izzy is doing the same thing with the leash, jumping up biting it, thrashing from side to side. I tried the harness with the ring on top and that did not work. I then tried the Easy Walk Harness and that works like a charm. The ring is on her chest with a martingale loop which tightens when the leash is pulled preventing pulling or even trying to grab the leash.

As far as my opinion of some of these posts...if you don't want to hear any advice, then post on any of the forums. I personally have found this forum very helpful to me.

Joyce


----------



## jackie_hubert

Ian'sgran said:


> My next to last memory of my Subiaco was when the vet tech took him away to insert the port in his leg for the meds to euthanize him (he was 11 and had cancer) he walked out of the room with the leash in his mouth--and he hadn't done that in ages. Taking the leash in their mouths isn't really that big a deal compared to so many other things.


Good gosh, you're gonna make me cry! 

I let our guide dog hold her leash all the time, even play with it, but she wouldn't hurt herself doing it like Cosmo does.


----------



## jweisman54

Izzy has ripped her leash to shreds....it is now duct taped together. I might have to bite the bullet and get a chain leash.


----------



## Rochester

Our pup is 5 months old. I've taken her on 2+ mile walks on really warm days, and it doesn't phase her. I don't think walking is really exercise for a dog. It's great for us humans, and it's great for bonding with the dog, but the dog has significantly more energy than a walk is going to expend. Dogs like it because it's an adventure! Lots of great smells!

One of the most effective things I have done, is play fetch with her for as long as it retains her interest, just before going on a walk. She behaves a lot better on the walk. It wears off some of that excess energy that is reserved for leash biting/tug-of-war.

If she grabs the leash. I just stop and wait for her to drop it. After a few tugs, she figures out that I'm not going to play tug-of-war, and she gives up.

Our problem is/was with pulling, particularly with my wife. My wife broke her neck in a car accident several years ago, and has chronic problems with neck pain, which is exacerbated by a dog tugging on the leash, especially lunging. I bought a SportDog SD-105 electronic collar. It has eight levels of stimulation and an audio beep. I myself, my wife and my daughter, have all subjected ourselves to the collar, and it is not painful. If someone kept jolting me with it, I would get annoyed, but I wouldn't be in any pain.

When Sadie pulls, we give her a "beep" and if she continues, a shock. The level 1 shock is less than a static shock from the carpet. When given a shock, her response is to turn her head around. She looks almost as if to say, "Where did that come from?" But it also stops the pulling.

We are making great progress with this (just started 4 days ago.) Many times, she quits pulling just in response to the "beep." Everyday has seen noticeable improvement. Last night, she only pulled a couple of times.

As far as leash biting. Our first golden did it too. I think it is just a puppy wanting to play, and once s/he figures out you're not going to play tug-of-war, and s/he's not going to get to where s/he wants to go if s/he doesn't drop the leash, s/he'll drop it. I've not used the electronic collar for that because just standing still seems to work so well, and I don't want to confuse her.


----------



## BerkleysMom

My Berkley is 9 months old and does the identical misbehaviors. When he was litte, I soaked his leash in Bitter spray. He does a little jump and lunge at my hand for the leash right now and he is about 60lbs so far. It's getting old. Plus, he thinks biting the right butt cheak is especially hillarious. We are starting professional training for him to learn who rules the roost in one month. If it doesn't work I will let you know.


----------



## Dwyllis

Sorry, wrong thread ...


----------

