# Enlarged Heart - Could the vet be wrong?



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I wouldn't worry yet. Make sure she gets into a cardiologist and until then, keep doing what you have been. I know that's tough, you obviously love Rundle very much. But, imo it's very possible that the new vet just misdiagnosed her.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

What food are you feeding her? If it is taurine related DCM, it has been successfully treated with a change in diet and adding a taurine supplement (based on the cardiologist's recommendation.)


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Tahnee GR said:


> What food are you feeding her? If it is taurine related DCM, it has been successfully treated with a change in diet and adding a taurine supplement (based on the cardiologist's recommendation.)


She eats Wild Prairie by Acana - not sure if this could be related to a taurine deficit.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

This has literally been the worse day ever! Rundle has also been vomitting bile/blood. But, had clean x-rays and perfect blood tests. We have no idea what's going on. I'm hoping she has a turn for the better soon. We were just at the vets earlier, but if she gets much worse tonight we'll be at the ER.


----------



## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

Sending you good thoughts. I hope Rundle is feeling better overnight. I have my fingers crossed that you have a peaceful night and get a quick referral.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

3Pebs3 said:


> She eats Wild Prairie by Acana - not sure if this could be related to a taurine deficit.


Acana Pork and Squash had been implicated. There is a fair amount of peas/lentils in the Wild Prairie. You should print off the letter from Dr. Stern and take it with you to the appointment, just in case.

I hope Rundle is feeling better. Fingers crossed!


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I think that your cardiologist appointment will give you lots more info. I never trust practitioners to grade murmurs or even to hear them but if they do hear one, I believe it is there. It's just not their area to be able to grade by ear. I think 3 views by radiograph is best for trying to diagnose, but the echo you're going to get will tell you all you need to know. In the meantime, read the taurine material and try not to worry.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Tahnee GR said:


> Acana Pork and Squash had been implicated. There is a fair amount of peas/lentils in the Wild Prairie. You should print off the letter from Dr. Stern and take it with you to the appointment, just in case.
> 
> I hope Rundle is feeling better. Fingers crossed!


This info is very helpful, thank you. 

Rundle slept through the night. She vomited this morning bile, but, no blood. After not eating for 24hrs, I'm not surprised to see the bile still. I have some chicken in the crockpot and will try giving her chicken and rice once its ready. I'm hopeful she will have an appetite for chicken, because she showed no interest when I just offered the rice. Fingers crossed she has turned a corner. It was a restless night for me.


----------



## GOLDENinspired (Sep 4, 2017)

Sending thought and prayers this will pass.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> I think that your cardiologist appointment will give you lots more info. I never trust practitioners to grade murmurs or even to hear them but if they do hear one, I believe it is there. It's just not their area to be able to grade by ear. I think 3 views by radiograph is best for trying to diagnose, but the echo you're going to get will tell you all you need to know. In the meantime, read the taurine material and try not to worry.


Could it be possible though that the murmur was just an arrhythmia brought on by the vomiting? We'll follow through with the cardiology appointment anyways. Just in my heart of hearts I would really like her to be wrong.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

Fingers and paws crossed here for Rundle. Hope it's a better day today.


----------



## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm sorry to hear this, I went thru a similar issue with my last dog. It began with a change in his stool, almost was like a sawdust, very dry. Then his eating changed and he would cut his walks short, something that never happened. He went to the Vet three times in one week because of stomach issues and when an xray was taken the Vet said his heart seemed enlarged, but he was a mastiff so she decided to deal with the stomach issue first saying it could be his size.
After a few days I found him sleeping in an unusual spot for him. It was 5am and I took him to the ER Vet. The doctor that saved his life for Leptosporosis wasn't in until 9am. They hooked him to an IV and I got the call about the cardiomyopathy. He was panting uncontrollably because of the fluid and I put him to sleep on the spot. It was the kindest thing to do. The Vet explained to me the blood was not getting to his internal organs because of the heart issue which is why the other issues presented.
I hope this is not the case for Rundle but I thought you might appreciate the information.


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

So sorry you are going through this. When do you see the cardiologist? I'm with the others who have said, try not to worry ahead of seeing the specialist. I know it's easier said than done. I really hope it is NOT as serious as the vet thought. 

As an aside, I'm sort of surprised your regular vet wouldn't fit you in for something like persistent vomiting and you wound up going elsewhere. That would be a reason for me to get a new vet. Did that bother you? I will happily wait several days for a non-urgent appointment, but my vet will always offer a same-day appointment for something of a more urgent nature (like vomiting or diarrhea that has gone on more than one day). It's part of what I love about them. When my last girl, Tesia, had cancer, I was able to bring her in any time, any day if something was a concern in between oncologist visits. My own vet may not have been in that day, but I could see anyone in the practice if I so chose. It's a really nice thing when you have a very sick pet.


----------



## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

When is your cardiologist appointment? I would consider trying to get in with your regular vet re. the vomiting sooner rather than later, and you can have them look at the radiographs which were taken. 

Even though we are always told, when we hear hoof beats, to think horses, not zebras, a zebra which comes to mind which could explain both problems is a pericardial-peritoneal hernia. In this condition there is communication between the sac around the heart and the abdominal cavity, and some abdominal contents can slip into the pericardium. This would give an enlarged cardiac silhouette, and, depending what went in, could cause vomiting. Obviously, without seeing the radiographs this is pure random conjecture on my part, especially as these are usually congenital in which case why now, or due to trauma, which I am sure you would have mentioned!


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi all, 
Thank you for your replies. As an update, Rundle ignored the bowl of rice and chicken, but, she would eat handed chicken. I gave her about a quarter cup worth. So, far she has kept that down in addition to water. She seems to be in slightly better spirits, but tired. 

I emailed my vet last night about whether he can obtain the x-rays and provide a second opinion. I have not heard back yet. I haven't given too much thought about why they couldn't fit us in 2hrs ahead of closing time. Its possible that they were dealing with too many other urgent cases. Its in the back of my mind of something to process, but, number one is getting Rundle taken care of right now. 

Because its the weekend, we won't hear from the cardiologist about an appointment until next week. So, right now, I am not sure how long it will be until Rundle sees a specialist. Hopefully it will not be a long wait. I'd like to know what we're up against sooner than later. I said to a friend though that how can I be surprised by the news that Rundle's heart is too big... she loves so much! 

Apart from the vomiting her bowel movements have been normal. And up until yesterday, so has her activity level. I'm hoping the situation is not similar to yours murphy. I'm sorry you had to go through that. 

And Siandvm, I appreciate your out of the box thinking. There has definitely not been any trauma to Rundle. But, I will keep this in mind as a possible diagnosis if things do not improve. Though, they seem like they might be at least vomiting wise. 

The vet that saw Rundle yesterday emailed us about an update and to get my phone number for the referral. Apparently, I wrote my number down wrong in my distraught state. She asked if I could bring Rundle back today, so that she could see how she is doing and so that she could give her an anti-emetic. Apparently she was thinking about Rundle all night and how she should have done this. So, we are headed back now to see last nights vet again. I think its nice of her to follow-up.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Sending good thoughts and prayers for you and Rundle.


----------



## Ginams (Jan 20, 2015)

Sending you and Rubdle positive thoughts and prayers. I hope you're able to get into the cardiologist quickly and that the news is positive.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I am so sorry. I hope she will be ok.

Could she got into some poison?


----------



## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I hope all will be well!! I have a feeling it will be


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi all, 

So vet saw Rundle again. Gave her an anti-emetic, and a stomach acid suppressant. She also redid one of the x-rays so that it was straighter to send to the cardiologist. She went over them with me this time. Rundle's heart is taking up 1/2 to 3/4 of her chest cavity. It looks quite large. It was probably a good catch by the vet, and now we just have to figure out what this means for Rundle. So, we will await our appointment with the cardiologist.

As per the vomiting, she hasn't gotten sick again since this morning. After coming home from the vet, she played a bit with the other dog I am dog sitting. She also seemed hungry, so I offered her some more chicken and rice, which she ate most of. She's still very sleepy, but, definitely seems to have turned a corner. We're guessing my tomorrow's time she will be feeling back to her old self. 

What caused her to get sick we'll never know. She could have picked up something off the ground on our walk (poisonous plant, medication, dead animal), or it might just be a flu bug. All we know is that we are happy to see her getting back to normal. 

Now just for this heart business...

Thank you everyone for all of your support and well wishes!


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

If she seems to be getting better my guess is she picked up something poisonous. At least that is what I hope. I wouldn't think if it was a actual hesrt defect that she would be seeming to get better. Just a note when Jake had cancer and she saw the first X-ray that was the first thing she asked. Did he get into something poisonous. Praying she recovers and that's all it is. Anyway something poisonous can enlarge the heart. Especially since your vet never detected a heart murmur over the years.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Cpc1972 said:


> If she seems to be getting better my guess is she picked up something poisonous. At least that is what I hope. I wouldn't think if it was a actual hesrt defect that she would be seeming to get better. Just a note when Jake had cancer and she saw the first X-ray that was the first thing she asked. Did he get into something poisonous. Praying she recovers and that's all it is. Anyway something poisonous can enlarge the heart. Especially since your vet never detected a heart murmur over the years.


They don't think the heart and vomiting were related in any way. The heart finding was just circumstantial, or at least thats what they are thinking. Anyways, I will be dancing if at the end of the day they tell me Rundle is in perfect health. I want nothing more than for her to live a long and healthy life.


----------



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Oh (((Jill)))!

Sweet Rundle - I hope you're able to get a good diagnostic soon with a great gameplan on how to deal with whatever this is. I'll be keeping you both in my thoughts and prayers!


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

3Pebs3 said:


> They don't think the heart and vomiting were related in any way. The heart finding was just circumstantial, or at least thats what they are thinking. Anyways, I will be dancing if at the end of the day they tell me Rundle is in perfect health. I want nothing more than for her to live a long and healthy life.


I will be praying everything turns out ok. I feel very close to Rundle since we got them on the same day and her and Chloe's birthdays are do close. I feel like she is my own pup. We all went through puppyhood together. Give her extra hugs for me.


----------



## toByBrady2017 (Sep 23, 2017)

My thoughts and prayers are with you too. I was told that my baby Toby has a low-grade heart murmur. It was heard at his 8-week check-up and again at the last 2 check-ups. 

Rundle is so beautiful! (That photo of her in the mountains is spectacular. You are a very talented photographer.)

God bless you all!


----------



## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Poor Rundle and poor you. I agree with the others about meeting with the cardiologist. They will be able to provide you with more specific thoughts about what is going on. Charlie was seen by a cardiologist after his regular vet told me he had an enlarged heart. His VHS was 11 and normal range stops at 10 I believe. The cardiologist ran some test and said she thinks his heart is fine. Always better to be safe than sorry and check it out. Fingers crossed it's something that is manageable. And glad to see that Rundle's tummy seems to be doing better. Hang in there.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Thanks all! Your words and support mean so much!! 

jennretz - your story is SUPER encouraging! Thank you for sharing it!!


----------



## KKaren (Oct 29, 2014)

Keeping Rundle and you in my prayers and sending all kinds of healing thoughts. I'm glad you were able to get back into the vet this afternoon and that she is eating some today. I agree it may be that the vomiting and heart are not related.

With regards to the Taurine observations in other goldens you have Dr. Stern's letter. There is also a FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/
I have been in there to gain background on the discussion.... I also had Glimmer tested.

You are so right when you say...
"how can I be surprised by the news that Rundle's heart is too big... she loves so much! "

Rundle is so dear to many of us... we have watched/ known her and you since she was a baby. xoxo


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

KKaren said:


> Keeping Rundle and you in my prayers and sending all kinds of healing thoughts. I'm glad you were able to get back into the vet this afternoon and that she is eating some today. I agree it may be that the vomiting and heart are not related.
> 
> With regards to the Taurine observations in other goldens you have Dr. Stern's letter. There is also a FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1257656451030324/
> I have been in there to gain background on the discussion.... I also had Glimmer tested.
> ...


Gah! You guys are making me tear up! Thank you so much!


----------



## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Sending all my good thoughts and well wishes to Rundle and you! I so hope you get a good diagnostic and an easy solution.


----------



## lexie_bushey (Jun 22, 2013)

Sending good thoughts to Rundle!


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Sending you hugely positive thoughts. It is so hard to wait, but I know that seeing the cardiologist will be a great relief, and you will get some answers. Hopefully an easy treatment, too. Hang in there...


----------



## tikiandme (May 16, 2010)

Sending out good thoughts for Rundle and you.....


----------



## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

Just checking in on Rundle and so glad to hear she is feeling a bit better. Continuing to send lots of positive thoughts x


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Wicky said:


> Just checking in on Rundle and so glad to hear she is feeling a bit better. Continuing to send lots of positive thoughts x


Thanks for checking in! Whatever was making Rundle sick before seems to be on its way out. She hasn't thrown up since yesterday morning. She's slept through the night OK. She's showing more of an appetite for the chicken and rice today. Drinking normally. She's showing an interest in her toys, chews, following us around the house, playing with the visiting dog... she had a bit of a runny poop this morning, but, there was no blood in that either. I truly believe she is in the clear, and will just take a couple of days now to get completely back on track. 

I will update you when I hear from the cardiologist about when her appointment will be. I got the radiographs and bloodwork from the vet yesterday just in case Rundle got sick overnight or today, because they are closed today. I emailed them to our regular vet, to keep him up-to-date, but, there has still been no word from him or his clinic. It's been over 2 days. I believe that is the nail in the coffin, and we will be switching to the vet who has been showing Rundle such wonderful care now. She saw Rundle 1/2 hour before closing, and stayed late to get the results. Emailed the next morning and invited her back to the office for a free follow-up. Fixed her one crooked X-ray voluntarily. Very reasonably priced. Caught the heart murmur. Took x-rays of her chest after the stomach was clear. Gave me copies of everything in case she got worse while they were closed. Truly impressive care. She has won our loyalty, and our previous vet has lost it. I wish I could change the title of this thread, because even if she is wrong, she has done everything in her power to make sure that Rundle has received the best possible care.


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm so glad to hear the throwing up seems to have passed. One less thing to worry about anyway. 

Continued positive thoughts to you both. I hope the wait for answers isn't too long.


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Fingers crossed for good results. Kind thoughts coming your way - not knowing is tough.


----------



## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Sounds like this new vet is pretty good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## danoon58 (Jul 1, 2015)

It sounds like this new vet is great! To call and check on her -- that's wonderful. I hope the cardio issue is nothing!


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

So, the appointment with the cardiologist has been set for October 15th. 

My fiancé and I couldn't shake this feeling that the murmur may be related to the persistent vomiting. I was comparing her radiographs to images of normal dog hearts, and it didn't appear to be that enlarged by my eyes either. So, we sent her radiographs to her former award-winning vet in Vancouver to get his opinion. He responded that while the heart doesnt look particularly enlarged to him, there is an opacity in the esophagus. 

So, at this point we are more confused than ever! Its $1000 for this heart consult and ultrasound, and I am not sure that she even needs it. And opacity in the esophagus appears to be related to any number of things... so ya... not sure what the best thing to do in this scenario is. I'm thinking it would be a good idea to have some re-listen to the heart to confirm whether the murmur is still present. I'm just not sure, who I trust the most to do this. We did finally hear today from Rundle's vet we were using in Calgary (the one who turned us away), asking us to bring her in on Thurs or Sat. We have not responded to this request yet either. 

On the plus, Rundle is near to completely back to her old self, just waiting for entirely solid bowel movements.


----------



## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

For your own piece of mind, it may be worthwhile to meet with Cardiologist. Charlie is having surgery in the next few weeks and the surgeon honed in on whether Charlie had been cleared by cardiologist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Given what has happened so far, couple with the Acana food, I would definitely keep the appt with the cardiologist.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

$1000 seems like an awful lot... But I do remember spending about $600 for our Danny years ago when we had to rush him to a cardiologist for similar reasons. His heart was clear of any actual heart concerns, but our dog DID have bronchitis which caused some of the odd fuzz on the original xrays + his symptoms. If we had not taken him in, it might have gone into pneumonia. 

Our regular vet did not find the bronchitis. The symptoms and fuzz on the xrays had them leaping to conclusions that it was either heart failure or cancer.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I would also keep the appointment. Just so you can rule anything in or out. Peace of mind would be everything.


----------



## Buddy's mom forever (Jun 23, 2011)

I am following your tread last couple days, so sorry it is getting more complicated with so many different opinions. Hope the cardiologist cut the Gordian knot and gives you the best answer possible. Sending good thoughts and hugs to you and sweet Rundle.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Hi all, 
So, after talking it over with my fiancé, we decided that we are going to post-pone the visit with the cardiologist. We are going to drive Rundle to our former vet in BC at the end of October. He will do the follow-up and redo her x-rays. After his consult, if he feels that Rundle should see a cardiologist we will go ahead with the appointment in November time. We trust his opinion above all else. It might seem a little crazy, but, its the decision we feel most comfortable with. 
Stay tuned...


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Can you at least take your dog to a cardiologist and get an inexpensive OFA type screen done? I have no idea how much it costs out there, but here it's only $50.


----------



## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I don't understand why you would wait, the possibility of a problem should be dealt with, waiting for over six weeks does not make sense to me.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

I totally get where you guys are coming from, and perhaps I should have taken a little more time to explain our decision better. This decision has nothing to with money really, and far more to do with trust and belief about what is best for Rundle. I mean, I am about to get $500 at the end of the month just for giving a presentation for an hour. Driving out to Vancouver and staying in a hotel and having Rundle see another vet is not exactly going to cost pennies. And on top of that, we may need to see the cardiologist anyhow. Believe me when I say, we are invested in giving Rundle the best care possible, whatever the cost. 

Rundle is completely asymptomatic of having a heart condition. I've seen her give younger dogs than her a run for her money on a regular basis. The vet she saw in Calgary 6 months ago did not detect a heart murmur. The vet she just saw now, while great, only just met Rundle when she was very sick, likely having eaten something she shouldn't have. Her heart may have been disregulated from this event. While this vet thought Rundle's heart looked enlarged, her lungs were perfectly clear. And I sent her scans to her former vet in BC, who might I add is largely regarded as one of the best vets in Canada, and he did not think the heart looked particularly enlarged, and actually thought her esophagus looked a bit off. So, now based on this new information, we are still supposed to send her to another specialist, who we also don't know, and have him tell me something about her heart, when it may not even be the problem to begin with? I feel like we're chasing our tail right now. It's too much, too fast for a dog that apart from this weekend appears to be in perfect health. We need to take a breath, and get some information from someone we feel confident in. And given Rundle's current state, I believe we can afford that time. We were originally told that we may not see the cardiologist until November time anyhow. They just happened to open up an extra day for additional cases, which is the only reason why we were being seen in October vs. November. 

It might not be the decision that everyone would make. But, we do feel that we are keeping Rundle's best interest in mind by going out of our way to bring her to the best - rather than put her through a series of unnecessary tests and procedures. Hope this helps you understand more about where we are coming from.


----------



## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I think your making the right decision. It's only a two week difference. And since you trust this vet you can get some better info on how to procede. As active as you are with Rundle I would think if it was her heart you would be seeing some heavy panting or fluid build up. And your right she was sick when that vet saw her. Hopefully it's nothing in her throat. Maybe it was part of whatever made her sick and will be gone with new X-rays.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Cpc1972 said:


> I think your making the right decision. It's only a two week difference. And since you trust this vet you can get some better info on how to procede. As active as you are with Rundle I would think if it was her heart you would be seeing some heavy panting or fluid build up. And your right she was sick when that vet saw her. Hopefully it's nothing in her throat. Maybe it was part of whatever made her sick and will be gone with new X-rays.


Thanks Cpc! We're hoping that is the case as well. We will definitely keep everyone posted


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> We were originally told that we may not see the cardiologist until November time anyhow. They just happened to open up an extra day for additional cases, which is the only reason why we were being seen in October vs. November.


That is the part I don't understand or was confused about.... and why I suggested getting in with a cardiologist asap and at least getting an idea of whether there is an actual problem or not. Have no idea how helpful a basic screen at a cardiologist would be, but probably a whole lot better than a general practitioner (especially since the gp's make mistakes). 

Our regular vet back then with Danny did xrays of our dog's chest, saw something which alarmed them on the chest xray and did not claim to have the expertise to dx what might be going on with the heart. That same day we got a referral... the following week we were in to the cardiologist and getting our dog looked at. He was sent home with meds for his bronchitis and that was that. No dragged out drama. You are talking about a matter of days between the event of a concern and seeing the specialist. There was no length of time wearing on our nerves and emotions as far as us thinking our dog had a serious condition. 

Heck even my Jacks this past summer got in with a specialist within a week later, this when we thought he might either have blood cancer or a brain tumor. If I had to wait weeks or a month, I would have gone nuts. I'm saying this in sympathy and putting myself in your position - having been there.


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Yes, I'm not sure what they do in emergent cases, because we were told the animal hospital flies a cardiologist in from Ontario once a month to consult on cases. If Rundle needed urgent help, I certainly would not be OK with sitting on my hands for a month or two. But, luckily for us, even the vet who thought heard the murmur and thought Rundle's heart looked enlarged did not think this was an urgent case, and thought it might just be something we want to look into, as Rundle right now has no complications of heart disease. We have time to get a second opinion from a vet we know and trust. And keep in mind, its not just me calling the shots here. My fiancé has a say too. He too really wants this second opinion. While I was quite stressed when I first heard the diagnosis, neither of us at the present time are that convinced that this is a stable finding, and are even less convinced now the vet in BC said he didn't find the heart to be particularly enlarged. And not that I am an expert in animal medicine, but, I do work in the field of neuroimaging, and on comparison of her heart to other normal dog hearts, I could not detect a significant difference between the two. Maybe we're wrong. Maybe the vet in BC will listen to her heart and hear the same murmur. But, that confirmation from someone we know and trust would be everything! Because right now the only thing I am trusting is my gut that says - you know your kid best. This is not wishful thinking, or us chasing every vet down until we get the answer we want... its just the confirmation we need before moving forward.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Realize that the earlier OFA suggestion was not a bad one- maybe check around for clinics because an echo here at a show clinic for OFA is at most $175. US


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Appreciate the suggestions. Nearest clinics are end of Oct early Nov. $275CAD if anyone is wondering. Doesn't really save us any time to get answers. By that time we will have seen the vet we know and trust, and can have a private consult with a cardiologist in Nov if needed.


----------



## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Sounds like you have thought this out. Even with my Charlie, I was told to keep an eye on it. We got him to an internist, but based on that it was a year before we saw cardiologist. It really comes down to what are you able to do with the information? Would medical intervention make a immediate difference? In the grand scheme of things a few weeks doesn’t make that much of a difference. If it were an obstruction or the dog was in obvious distress my advice would be completely different.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

So, there is an update to this whole fiasco. As you know, Rundle was back to her regular self by early in the week. We transitioned her off the bland diet, back to her regular kibble. And by Thurs/Fri we were starting to reintroduce treats. Well, the last treats I gave her on Friday were at 8/9PM, and it wasn't many. Just a few dehydrated liver treats. Well, by 1AM she started vomitting, and proceeded to vomit again every 1-2hrs through the evening to morning. And the mystery is now solved. The only correlation between last weekend, this weekend and my friend's dog that way staying with me last weekend and also go sick that I can think of are these treats. The vet agreed with my deduction and gave Rundle another anti-emetic and this time put her on a round of antibiotics. She's bouncing back much quicker this time, and is already eating her bland diet just fine. Hiding the pills in cheese works like a charm. And we also purchased some packs of forti-flora to help get her stomach back on track. The treats have been reported to both the pet boutique I purchased them from and the company that makes them. They say this is the first they have heard of this, basically deny their involvement, and offered us a refund for our dissatisfaction, so approx. $8, for the bag of treats. Ummm ya. Well, that will make up for the $600 I have spent over the last 2 weekends.

While we were at the vet, the same wonderful vet who treated Rundle last weekend, she had another listen to Rundle's heart. She still heard the murmur. She also measured her heart this time, based on her scans from last weekend, and found it to be an 11 (normal is 10.5). Taking into consideration how deep Rundle's chest is, this may not be an abnormal finding. But, the murmur is still there, however, we don't know whether this is an innocent murmur or not. She didn't think taking Rundle to get a second opinion was a terrible idea. She said that different vets have different training, and years of experience, so he may be able to give us some additional insight into what is happening. But, it seems we may very well end up at cardiology in Nov to get her murmur graded and see where we go from here.


----------



## Buddy's mom forever (Jun 23, 2011)

Thanks for the update, hope it's just treats going bad. 
While back I started writing down the dates every new food or treat bag opens or anything new so I can better track down when something out of ordinary happens like vomit or loose poop.


----------



## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Glad you’re getting some answers. Personally, I would want to understand the grade of the heart murmur. An 11 VHS score is what Charlie had as well. Hope she’s feeling better today.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

What brand was the treats?!


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

We believe it was the Grain-Free Trail Blazin' Bitz Venison Liver Recipe treats that caused Rundle to be sick 2 weekends in a row + the other dog that was staying with us last weekend


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

UPDATE!! 

So, after driving 10hrs to British Columbia and 12hrs back (huge delays due to a semi being ripped in half on the highway - no idea how that happens), we can finally say something more about Rundle's heart. We brought her to see our old vet there before bringing her to a cardiologist because of the mixed messages we were getting, and wanting to hear something from someone we know and trust before introducing another doctor into the picture. 

As a recap, she saw one vet in Calgary, Alberta in April who did not hear a heart murmur. Then when he was too busy to see her when she was sick in September, we brought her to a new vet in Cochrane, Alberta who said she heard the heart murmur two weekends in a row + thought Rundle's heart was enlarged (scored 11/10.5). 

Our old vet after looking at the scans, suggested we bring her back to British Columbia to have him take a look at her. Both him and another vet in the office listened to her heart and neither of them heard the murmur. He hooked her up to an EKG and no murmur was detected. And although after redoing the x-rays he confirmed the heart measure of 11/10.5, he thought it was too early to be concerned about this. His mentioned that his own dog has had a measure of 12.5/10.5 his entire life and has never had any problems with his heart. There are of course variations to normal. His very astute suggestion given that Rundle is asymptomatic and has completely clear lungs on her x-ray was to cancel the cardiologist appointment for the time being. He suggested that we come back in 6mos to redo the x-rays. If her heart is bigger at that time we know there is a pathology there that needs to be treated. But, if its the same size it is more than likely that at least for now Rundle's heart is just naturally larger. Overall, after thoroughly looking her over he didn't think we had any reason to be worried about Rundle or her heart. So, we are going to follow his advice - especially given the EKG results. And I will have another update for you 6mos from now. This seems like a far more rational approach to take rather than rushing her off to see a cardiologist without any real indication she needs to see one. Although I am so thankful that Rundle is more than likely fine, its a bit frustrating that we feel we have been sent on a wild goose chase for a perfectly healthy dog. We're actually considering driving back to BC now for every annual check-up, because it seems that really good vets are not so easy to come by. Now after a LONG weekend I'm off to get ready for work. Thanks for following our journey through this!


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Great update, good to hear, hope she continues to do well.


----------



## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

wonderful news


----------



## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Great news. I hope you enjoyed your weekend away.


----------



## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

Yay! That's wonderful news  .


----------



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

So glad Rundle is ok


----------



## swishywagga (Nov 13, 2012)

That's really excellent news!.


----------



## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

So glad she is healthy and happy(and insanely cute!)


----------



## lexie_bushey (Jun 22, 2013)

Great news!


----------



## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Yay!! I'm so glad Rundle is happy and healthy! I think we need more Rundle pictures to celebrate


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Glad to hear she is feeling better. Knowing she has been on a brand of food implicated w/ the Taurine deficiency issues and you've only had GPs examining her, I'd still do the cardio appointment or see if you can get an ECHO at a health clinic (if they do those in Canada). I have little faith in auscultation, and will ECHO all of my goldens from here on out.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

what great news!


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

SheetsSM said:


> Glad to hear she is feeling better. Knowing she has been on a brand of food implicated w/ the Taurine deficiency issues and you've only had GPs examining her, I'd still do the cardio appointment or see if you can get an ECHO at a health clinic (if they do those in Canada). I have little faith in auscultation, and will ECHO all of my goldens from here on out.


Thanks Sheets. I knew not everyone would agree with our choice, and thats OK. Here are my thoughts, and you don't have to agree. 

Although she is on the same brand of food implicated with Taurine deficiency - the foods themselves are actually quite different. ACANA Pork & Squash features one single, easily digestible animal protein - Loaded with 50% Yorkshire pork. Whereas ACANA Wild Prairie is loaded it with free-run Cobb chicken, turkey , whole nest-laid eggs and whole wild-caught fish. All delivered FRESH or RAW daily in WholePrey™ ratios, ACANA Wild Prairie is loaded with 70% meat. Whole green peas, whole red lentils, whole chickpeas, fresh whole eggs only make up to (4%) of the total nutrient source. I have very little concern, and neither did our vet about her being taurine deficient. 

And even though we have only consulted with GPs we have not only relied on auscultation. The vet in BC also hooked her up to an EKG and found no indication of a murmur. There is also no indication behaviourally or physiologically at this time to suggest she requires a consult with a cardiologist. We will redo her x-rays at her next vaccine appointment in April. If her heart is bigger at that time we will have reason to follow-up. Or of course if anything changes clinically before then. But, presently, I don't see the point in doing test after test, just to go the extra mile to prove she is normal right now. She's healthy, happy, and our concerns have been abated. 

Thank you everyone for your positive responses. We are thrilled that she is OK!! I will post some pictures from our weekend as soon as I can get my fiancé to send them from his phone


----------



## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

Great news - so pleased she I’d doing well


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Despite the crazy month we've had, we've also gone a lot of adventures. We went up the Icefields Parkway with Rundle, visiting Lake Moraine, Athabasca Glacier and Jasper in Alberta. And of course we drove to British Columbia. Although it was very rainy while we where there, we did manage to fit in a couple of hikes. One was the same one we did when she was 11wks old at Brandywine Falls. The other was the Lost Lake Loop in Whistler, BC. At Lost Lake there was this dock that at one point was even with the water. Rundle thought she could walk right into the water from there just like she does at the other lakes we visit. Well the water sure wasn't shallow and she got the surprise of her life! Scrambled back onto the dock with a little help from mom and dad. She had a big audience to witness her embarrassing blunder. But, as you can see by the first photo, she is very good at laughing at herself. Love my goofy girl!


----------



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I didn't see this until now... what a wonderful update!

I'm not surprised that a large heart would be normal (and healthy) for beautiful Rundle. Where else would she put all the love that she gives and receives?


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Anele said:


> I didn't see this until now... what a wonderful update!
> 
> I'm not surprised that a large heart would be normal (and healthy) for beautiful Rundle. Where else would she put all the love that she gives and receives?


Thank you Anele! I completely agree!!


----------



## swishywagga (Nov 13, 2012)

She is stunningly beautiful!.


----------



## Wicky (Aug 27, 2015)

Amazing photos. What a beautiful place. So lovely to get an update on Rundles adventures


----------



## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

swishywagga said:


> She is stunningly beautiful!.


Thank you! We just love her to pieces!!


----------



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Stunning scenery, what a great trip for you all.


----------

