# Very bad news about Angel



## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

We went to get her hips and elbows checked because a few weeks ago I noticed a weird grinding and popping feeling from her hips, after talking with Prism she suggested that I get some xrays. Angel is 7 months old full of energy and spunk and now she has hip dysplasia. Me and my wife are talking to find out what we will do but one thing is sure i will be getting a refund, Florida has a puppy lemon law. I let the lady i got Angel from know what was found and I will be following up with her.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I'm so very sorry to hear this news. 

I hope everything works out with your refund from the person you got her from and with Angel's treatment.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I am so sorry.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I am sorry you got this news, but with the right treatment she can have a normal, happy life. I have fostered several dogs that had hip surgery who went on to active, full lives. It's a big disappointment I know, but it there is good treatment and you can have positive results.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I am sorry too. That's really too bad. Maybe you could get her help through a research study. This is probably too far away 
Six Month Evaluation of the Cupless Hip System

but check with veterinary schools near you


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

I am sorry about the news of your Angel..hopefully w the right treatment, you can help her live a long healthy life...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Very sorry....  

The good news is the other hip looks fine and even the dislocated hip doesn't seem to have too much damage yet. So maybe she's a prime candidate for surgery at some point and just the one hip.

This is manageable.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

UF is your closest vet school. I will ask if they have any studies going on hips. 

I'm also of the opinion that one side looks fine, but I see arthritic changes on the bad side in the neck of the femur. Not sure if I misunderstood you earlier today, getting one side done is totally done and both are not necessarily always done.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

The good looking side vet said is more then likely not dysplisic. I am looking at different things, a TPO looks go for her age. She still has time to grow to so it is confusing me on if it will be detrimental in the long term. Me and the wife have either to give Angel up and get a full refund plus vet reimbursement, or keep Angel still get a refund but absorb the vet bill or keep Angel get a refund however find a home that can take care of her needs. My brain works very different from normal peoples brain it doesn't take in one thing at a time I am stressing about five thing all at once. I feel like I am a terrible person for not doing my due diligence like I did with Athena, that in turn hurts Angel. Angel is apart if my family now and I am struggling with what to do. The wife will for sure say it is my call which makes it harder because I try to plan for every outcome. I feel like what if I had a handicapped kid I wouldn't give it up, I will be having to put down Athena soon and that is weighing in my mind VERY heavy. I try to not get super attached and that never works. I personally feel she has other issues that just havent popped up yet. I can't wait for Mary Ann puppy that ok waitlisted for but then I think Nate you might have to go be up Angel because you can't afford the required treatment for her, well Nate how do you justify buying another puppy? Well first Nate Mary Ann puppy will be fully cleared and comes with a AMAZING background and you will not have to worry about some of Angels "faults". Good point but Angel is a sweetie she has her "faults" but who doesn't. This is how my mind works. I promise you this I will be stressing about this for the week 100% guaranteed. Done venting sorry.


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## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

I’m so sorry for sweet Angel. Hopefully with the proper care she’ll live a long happy life


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I would consult with an orthopedic specialist - 

I think the arthritic changes that Robin referred to was thickening around the neck. But I've seen some really crunchy looking hips and I'm a little concerned that might be a problem down the road if she's continuing to have bumping and grinding going on. 

Because the other hip looks fine, I'd want to see what you can do to fix the bad hip and get more support. The concern about not doing anything is that your dog may shift more weight over on the good hip and put a lot of wear and tear on it. And then more damage may occur to the bad hip.

I personally would not give up my dog if I've had him longer than 3-5 weeks.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear of Angel's hip problems. 
It's a lot to think about right now, give yourself a little time to sort all the options out in your mind.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I called UF and left a message for the head ortho vet for you re: studies being funded now or planned. 
There may not be anything but there may be something amazing- let's cross fingers (and toes).

And don't beat yourself up about the due diligence or lack of- 
it is likely that living with you has her in better shape than she'd have been in someone's backyard. This is not something that wouldn't have happened no matter who had her. The breeder's cavalier attitude about not doing clearances is where the beating up belongs.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Very sorry. The good news is you caught this at a young age. Get her on some supplements like Dasaquin and keep the weight off. There are a lot of things you can do to keep the muscle strong.

Can I send you a pm?


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

I am so sorry for her diagnosis. And I know how hard it must be trying to make the best decision for Angel and your family. I don't think I would have been able to give up Noah (he's from a BYB) after even a few weeks. We did decide to get pet insurance on him and wait the requisite year before having his radiographs done (they don't cover pre-existing conditions and won't cover hip dysplasia for the first year you're on the insurance). 

Hopefully Robin will hear something positive for you guys from UF.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

ya go for it CPc


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

There is a very good chance your dog won’t have issues down the road if she currently is active and not showing any limping ect No way in hell I would give the dog back or get reboune


I am just going to say this here. Chloe was limping every once in awhile when she got up. It only lasts a few seconds. She had X-rays this past spring and had HD. She isn’t having any issues. She jumps and is a ball of energy. She is on Dasaquin and basically since starting that haven’t noticed the limp when getting up for a long time. Our vet said if she was her dog she wouldn’t worry about it right now. She isn’t even on pain medicine. So the long story is just because she has this diagnosis doesn’t mean she will have issues. If she isn’t having symptoms and no pain I don’t think I would do surgery on Angel.. And certainly wouldn’t give her up. We knew Chloe had it we just got it confirmed by the vet. So it was no suprise to us.


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## Yaichi's Mom (Jul 21, 2012)

I am very sorry for the diagnosis you have received and the difficult decisions it seems you may have to make.

That said, whenever I have taken an animal into my care, it is for life, my family...through thick and thin.

My current girl Brisby was diagnosed with "spay incontinence" at the age of 1 1/2. She is now 5 years old and we have dealt with this and are trying to do all we can do to help this very special soul with an issue that is no fault of hers. Many other dog parents would have returned her to a breeder, surrendered her to a shelter or just given up on her. I do a lot of laundry...a lot of carpet and floor cleaning...I have white towels and comforters everywhere to monitor her leaks, clean up after her in the house and her body. I would never think for less than one second that i would give her up because she is afflicted with something that is no fault of her own.

Brisby has also ruptured her cruciate and we have had ongoing stifle problems for several years. 

Anyway, I have rambled way too much.

I also expected a "perfect" pup, as we all do when I brought her home from her breeder. I do have the perfect pup...my heart dog and the most wonderful, intelligent, loving canine soul I have been blessed to have in my life...despite her physical issues.

I would guess the question may be for you is, whether you are willing to go through the journey with your Angel, for all it may entail or not. Only you can answer this and I would suggest if you don't want to deal with this, then please surrender her so that she can find a loving home which will support her, work with her and give her a wonderful life despite her potential issue with her hip.

Wishing you and Angel more than the best.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Angel has started to show signs of limping. She is till very active but she is limping more and more. If we where to give her up someone has already offered to help and i trust this person ALOT has lead me astray at all.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Nate83 said:


> Angel has started to show signs of limping. She is till very active but she is limping more and more. If we where to give her up someone has already offered to help and i trust this person ALOT has lead me astray at all.


There are lots of options for you to try before you even have to worry about surgery. If you can’t sfford it and she needs it trying these things may by you time to save. There is also care credit. No way I would never rehome my dog because of this. You need to take a breath and take some time with how you want to proceed. That includes a ortho vet and starting her on suplements and maybe a pain med first. Like I was saying since Chloe started Dasaquin she hasn’t had that limp when she gets up but maybe one time in the last few months.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Cpc1972 said:


> There are lots of options for you to try before you even have to worry about surgery. If you can’t sfford it and she needs it trying these things may by you time to save. There is also care credit. No way I would never rehome my dog because of this. You need to take a breath and take some time with how you want to proceed. That includes a ortho vet and starting her on suplements and maybe a pain med first. Like I was saying since Chloe started Dasaquin she hasn’t had that limp when she gets up but maybe one time in the last few months.


But remember, that's Chloe's hip issue and not Angel's. A dog who has mild dysplasia can live a pain free life with little intervention, at this point Angel cannot. It is Nate's decision what is best for Angel and his family. I'm sure the orthopedic specialist will help decide what can be done to ease her pain and help her live the best life.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

ArchersMom said:


> But remember, that's Chloe's hip issue and not Angel's. A dog who has mild dysplasia can live a pain free life with little intervention, at this point Angel cannot. It is Nate's decision what is best for Angel and his family. I'm sure the orthopedic specialist will help decide what can be done to ease her pain and help her live the best life.


All I am saying is there are things that can be tried. Chloe’s I don’t think is mild. The vet said she did have some damage to the femur where it was worn down. I am just saying there are dogs who are mild and have problems and dogs that are severe with few problems. I was just trying to comfort him that it’s not the end of the world. But to take a deep breath before making any decisions. Some dogs have it and don’t have many issues.  And just getting on a supplement can make all the difference. But I know I haven’t seen this dog.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

I went through this last March with my wee rescue pooch. The depression, the second guessing, the whole thing. Husband’s job has been kinda crappy for a bit over a year and we just didn’t have the $$ for surgery. Ted was barely walking when we got his DX and I was concerned about how that would effect our lifestyle (we tend to do a lot of outdoor activities). Ted has moderate displasia in one hip and mild in the other. 
After about a week or so of moping I decided to do what I had the ability to do about it. I changed his food, I started him in suppliments. I personally have been studying human herbalism for several years and decided to go at it on the dog with the help of a fantastic Canine herbalist that Is been following.

Took a little bit but Ted is back up and running like any other nearly 2yo puppy. He has occasional rough days but has only had to have 2 RX pain pills since April. We took him camping this summer and climbed a 1000ft verticals 4 mile trail @ 12.5k feet and rocked it. We walk 2-3 miles a day with no issue. 

There might come a time where he will need more support or even surgery, but we have time to save up for it. He is a fantastic little dog and I wouldn’t trade him for anything. 

Hip displasia isn’t great, but it’s not the end of the world either.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Um... well, Jacks has bilateral hip dysplasia. This was dx when he was 3. Due to us doing xrays for other reasons at 5, 8, and this past year - I've had the interesting ability to see how these hips look and compare them to when he was younger. 

This past year (June), there were some minor changes - but likely due to age. Because he's 10. And those bone changes are what they are. They don't affect his activity and ability to get around. <- he just pranced in the room with a new stuffy I bought him and did an emphatic belly flop with his toy in front of me. He's still jumping up on my bed multiple times through the night and in the morning. And he's still a happy trekker with me on long hikes and he LOVES swimming. No limping, stiffness, or soreness. 

If he were in the home of a backyard breeder - they probably would pronounce his hips as "very good" and assure pet owners that there are no hip problems in parents like him because he's so active, agile, and full of it.  

He has been on supplements all his life and my younger guy has as well (and he has all his OFA clearances). So I believe in clearances.

HOWEVER.  

Jacks' hips have never been popped out of the socket. He has shallow sockets and laxity. That is different than dislocated hips.

Laxity with hip dysplasia and bone changes related to the unnatural wear and tear of the hips - you're going to have vets weighing the quality of life if the dog just goes as is with management, or if surgery is done.

With Jacks, he was NEVER a candidate for surgery. 

1. He had no pain or inflamation or arthritis at the time he was first dx
2. His hips were not popped out of the sockets

When you have a 7 month old pup who has his or her whole life ahead of them - you kinda want to do what you can. And an orthopedic specialist is somebody who will make those decisions or assist a dog owner with the best route.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Ok, so the main worry is we cant afford the treatment she WILL require. I am not at all happy that i am even having this conversation but i needed to talk to someone. The surgery and it will come to that vet already said. It will run around and i am ball parking it 3k to 5k. then she will have to do therapy guessing 500 to 1k then yearly supplements another 500 to 1k. Also she has this weird snorting thing she does it is hard to explain but it isnt normal i wanted to talk to the vet about it but my mind forgot about it. Prism was saying goldens are known to have throat issues. In my heart i have a feeling there are other issues that have not popped up yet. the only thing we know for 100% sure is i am getting my refund back. I am not wanting to re home a 7 month old puppy who i have gotten attached to and love but i also am not going to keep a puppy that i cant give the best treatment to. I had to watch as my wife balled her eyes out while i told her the truth, I have no desire to give Angel up I also have no desire to put Athena down either but i need to do what is best for the dogs. If i re home her i will be labeled a failure by some of you and by myself, which is fair because i did fail her and if i do re home her i will forever be haunted by it. It isnt the end of the world but it is a very crappy feeling to be thinking of any of this.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Megora said:


> Um... well, Jacks has bilateral hip dysplasia. This was dx when he was 3. Due to us doing xrays for other reasons at 5, 8, and this past year - I've had the interesting ability to see how these hips look and compare them to when he was younger.
> 
> This past year (June), there were some minor changes - but likely due to age. Because he's 10. And those bone changes are what they are. They don't affect his activity and ability to get around. <- he just pranced in the room with a new stuffy I bought him and did an emphatic belly flop with his toy in front of me. He's still jumping up on my bed multiple times through the night and in the morning. And he's still a happy trekker with me on long hikes and he LOVES swimming. No limping, stiffness, or soreness.
> 
> ...


m

I totally agree.with you. You just got the point across better then I did. You reallly need the advice of a specialist before you make any rash decisions.


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## Siandvm (Jun 22, 2016)

Nate83 said:


> Ok, so the main worry is we cant afford the treatment she WILL require. I am not at all happy that i am even having this conversation but i needed to talk to someone. The surgery and it will come to that vet already said. It will run around and i am ball parking it 3k to 5k. then she will have to do therapy guessing 500 to 1k then yearly supplements another 500 to 1k. Also she has this weird snorting thing she does it is hard to explain but it isnt normal i wanted to talk to the vet about it but my mind forgot about it. Prism was saying goldens are known to have throat issues. In my heart i have a feeling there are other issues that have not popped up yet. the only thing we know for 100% sure is i am getting my refund back. I am not wanting to re home a 7 month old puppy who i have gotten attached to and love but i also am not going to keep a puppy that i cant give the best treatment to. I had to watch as my wife balled her eyes out while i told her the truth, I have no desire to give Angel up I also have no desire to put Athena down either but i need to do what is best for the dogs. If i re home her i will be labeled a failure by some of you and by myself, which is fair because i did fail her and if i do re home her i will forever be haunted by it. It isnt the end of the world but it is a very crappy feeling to be thinking of any of this.


All of this may well be true (the part about what the vet said and the cost). However, I wager that your regular vet is not going to do a TPO or a total hip, and would refer you to an orthopedic surgeon. THAT is where you start. Can you afford to have a consultation with an ortho surgeon? That’s not committing to thousands of dollars in surgery, probably a couple of hundred for the consult. The orthopedists are the ones who see these dogs all the time, manage them all the time, and know way better than your general practice vet what particular radiographs plus physical symptoms mean as far as disease progression and surgical requirements. 

I agree with the advice to take a breath. She is still the same dog she was 5 minutes before you got these results. Nothing drastic has to happen immediately. I know your mind is racing with “what if’s” but the best person to address those is a specialist. They’ve seen it all. Make an appointment and go from there. And keep your fingers crossed about studies at UF. There’s also nothing wrong with calling a few different surgeons to compare consult costs, as well as UF. And consider Care Credit! There may also be funds, especially through UF, set aside for cases like hers, from generous donors (similar to all the wonderful people who donated to UCDavis for care of animals affected by the wildfires). 

Chin up!


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Nate83 said:


> If i re home her i will be labeled a failure by some of you and by myself, which is fair because i did fail her and if i do re home her i will forever be haunted by it. It isnt the end of the world but it is a very crappy feeling to be thinking of any of this.


You are considering rehoming Angel because you want what's best for her. How does that make you a failure? If anything, you are a very strong person because you're considering this, despite your attachment to her. I admire the hell out of people who know what they realistically can or cannot do, even if the result is heartbreaking. I don't have any advice for you, but I'll be keeping you, Angel and Athena in my thoughts. I am positive that you'll make the best decision you can.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

There is a huge difference in price for total hip replacement and fho by region. I am sure that some of the members in Florida can point you in the right direction. Do your research. Do the consult with an ortho surgeon. Don't make rash decisions until you know what your options are. In Chicago, a total hip replacement is $10k/hip. That same surgery in Ohio is $5K and somewhere in between in Madison, Wisconsin. I took Charlie in for total hip replacement and ended up with an FHO instead due to infection. It costs $5K. Rehab in Chicago is $90/session. They recommend 2xweek for the first few weeks post surgery. He will be in rehab for 3 months minimum. They may offer payment plans. I guess I would just recommend finding out what your options are where you live. It's terrible to see your dog in pain and wanting to help. I'm sorry you have to make this decision.


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## Golden State Mom (Sep 16, 2015)

Nate, I’m so sorry you are having to deal with this! I don’t have any real words of wisdom for you, other than to give yourself a little time. As siandvm said, she’s the same pup she was last week, before you received this awful news. 

At this point, there is no easy answer for you — all your choices will require some measure of sacrifice and/or heartache. I’m sorry. It’s clear that you are struggling to do the right thing, both for your family and for Angel. As much as others can advise, and offer opinions, you and your wife are the ones who will ultimately make the best choice for your family. There is no failure in having to deal with a wretched situation, and whatever choice you end up making, Angel has had a great start with you. If you do end up deciding to rehome her, I know it will be out of love for her, not because you have failed her in any way. 

Wishing you some measure of peace and clarity as you deal with this awful situation.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

She is as it again so this is the info I gathered. dezisands Member Page - Hoobly Classifieds. I already reported the links, also she has a facebook page for her Maltese https://www.facebook.com/pg/PurplePassionPets/about/.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Nate83 said:


> Ok, so the main worry is we cant afford the treatment she WILL require. I am not at all happy that i am even having this conversation but i needed to talk to someone. The surgery and it will come to that vet already said. It will run around and i am ball parking it 3k to 5k. then she will have to do therapy guessing 500 to 1k then yearly supplements another 500 to 1k. Also she has this weird snorting thing she does it is hard to explain but it isnt normal i wanted to talk to the vet about it but my mind forgot about it. Prism was saying goldens are known to have throat issues. In my heart i have a feeling there are other issues that have not popped up yet. the only thing we know for 100% sure is i am getting my refund back. I am not wanting to re home a 7 month old puppy who i have gotten attached to and love but i also am not going to keep a puppy that i cant give the best treatment to. I had to watch as my wife balled her eyes out while i told her the truth, I have no desire to give Angel up I also have no desire to put Athena down either but i need to do what is best for the dogs. If i re home her i will be labeled a failure by some of you and by myself, which is fair because i did fail her and if i do re home her i will forever be haunted by it. It isnt the end of the world but it is a very crappy feeling to be thinking of any of this.


Apologies if you mentioned this elsewhere and I missed it - but do you have insurance? If you've had it since you first brought Angel home, before the diagnosis, some of the treatment and supplements will likely be covered.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

No i do not have insurance.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Nate83 said:


> No i do not have insurgence.


Sorry to hear this, check into Care Credit if you haven't already. 
You can go online or Vet Clinics usually have the brochures in their office. 

Talk to your Vet about a payment plan, many will work with their clients.


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## Tosh's Legacy (Oct 2, 2013)

Just to encourage you on Angel's situation: Our Little Penny (over twenty years ago now) at 4 months old suddenly started limping and would not walk on her rear leg. After taking her to the vet for exams and x-ray, we found she needed surgery. We were devastated that our little girl had to go through that at such a young age, but wanted the best in life for her.

We live in Ocala, and the UF vet school performed her femoral head ostectomy and did a great job. Penny lived to be 14.5 years old and never had any problems after that. Although she was not an athletic dog, she lived a very normal and happy life with us. She was always the wonderful soul she was, regardless of physical faults. I would highly recommended taking Angel there for surgery.

The surgery is expensive. We were much younger at that time and couldn't "afford" to do it, but somehow managed to get it done without any regret on our part!

I would recommend keeping her and loving her just as you have. You will not regret it!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

If love paid the vet bills, yours would be paid in full.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Ok goldens unite! please do some research on sunset vet surgery clearwater fl. So i have overridden my wife decision kinda... Prism was talking to me about FHO, and i started my obsessive researching and i like A that it is low cost, B has a good success rate, C Prism recommends it and finally the low cost if it turns out to be low allows me to keep Angel. Another option the vet was saying is a TPO, but i am not sure that would work she has some growth in the socket but i am not a vet so.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Nate83 said:


> Ok goldens unite! please do some research on sunset vet surgery clearwater fl. So i have overridden my wife decision kinda... Prism was talking to me about FHO, and i started my obsessive researching and i like A that it is low cost, B has a good success rate, C Prism recommends it and finally the low cost if it turns out to be low allows me to keep Angel. Another option the vet was saying is a TPO, but i am not sure that would work she has some growth in the socket but i am not a vet so.


WHY are you obscessing about surgery before seeing a specialist. She may not need surgery for a few years or maybe not at all. See a specialist get there opinion and start supplements and see where it leads you.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

BECAUSE she is going to need it and if i do when she is younger her healing will be far better then if i wait to long. I plan on talking to a specialist monday and i have already got her on the supplements.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Nate83 said:


> BECAUSE she is going to need it and if i do when she is younger her healing will be far better then if i wait to long. I plan on talking to a specialist monday and i have already got her on the supplements.


You won’t believe the stories I have heard where a regular says they need surgery now and a specialist says otherwise. Take a breath. Everything will work out fine. You can find a way to keep her and get her the help she needs. Whether that be surgery now or in the future. You will make it work.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

After some thought we r 99.9% sure we r keeping her. There is a limit to what we can afford but as is currently we will be keeping her. I will of course talk to a specialist and see what they advice.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Maybe you could make Angel a Go Fund Me page with several pictures of her cuteness. We aren't allowed to post solicitation links here but people could go look for it.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Wife was saying that to.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

So after the xray she is starting to limp more. it is a hard thing to balance letting her get her exercise and burning her energy but making sure she doesn't hurt herself. i was hoping she would self moderate.... i dont think she will LOL. she still is her Velcro, snuggle brat.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Did the vet give you any pain medication or recommend joint supplements?

Sometimes being manipulated, stretched, and pulled to get in the right position for the xrays make them sore afterwards. She might do better after a week or so past the xrays if that's the case.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Chloe was super sore right after her X-rays. I am sure that is what it is.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

We are binge watching madam secretary Lol.


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## dlmrun2002 (Mar 4, 2011)

*Your Angel*



cwag said:


> Maybe you could make Angel a Go Fund Me page with several pictures of her cuteness. We aren't allowed to post solicitation links here but people could go look for it.


Great idea. I would like to help.


dlm ny country


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

We have to see what is to be done first and what the cost will be.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

So I got a few names Blue Pearl, Mike Kern and Callum Hay. He is the one name that everyone recommends. I have made no decisions but this Friday I do have a consult with Callum Hay.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

We where snuggling binging on madam secretary. Angel came up and Athena gave me the sad look so I brought her up, Angel wrestled with Athena for a bit then relaxed a bit then started dock diving off the bed to Athenas bed a few times so I crated Angel and Athena slept most of the day on the bed, I think it feel good to her. Not sure why but ever sense she had the xray her recall is a little better but she has so much energy that I just let her run around the yard until her tongue flaps to the side of her mouth and she started huffing and puffing then she is normally good for 3 to 4 hrs.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Got done with the consult with Kallum Hay he suggested we do the TPO total cost will be 3k and that includes everything. I got in touch with the lady i got Angel from to let her know what is going on and she asked what i am asking from her, i said per Florida law you are required to help me up to 1100. She said no she wouldn't do that and she would give me another puppy or refund me the price but she would only refund the price if i gave Angel back. I said no that isnt happening i told her the Florida law gives the consumer the right to choose which one they are going to pick, i pick keeping angel and you paying 1100, i also explained that if i was to give angel back she is on the hook for 1100 for the refund and 1100 for the vet reimbursements. now we are in a holding pattern.


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## danoon58 (Jul 1, 2015)

Good luck!


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

I double checked the Florida pet lemon law and I am on complete firm legal grounds.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Nate83 said:


> Got done with the consult with Kallum Hay he suggested we do the TPO total cost will be 3k and that includes everything. I got in touch with the lady i got Angel from to let her know what is going on and she asked what i am asking from her, i said per Florida law you are required to help me up to 1100. She said no she wouldn't do that and she would give me another puppy or refund me the price but she would only refund the price if i gave Angel back. I said no that isnt happening i told her the Florida law gives the consumer the right to choose which one they are going to pick, i pick keeping angel and you paying 1100, i also explained that if i was to give angel back she is on the hook for 1100 for the refund and 1100 for the vet reimbursements. now we are in a holding pattern.


I hope the law holds up, but you will have to get a lawyer and sue her to get anything out of her.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Check out "small claims" court. Maybe you can put a lien against her if she won't pay up. If not let her have it on the internet. It's just wrong that she won't help out.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

And the good thing about small claims is that you don't have to hire a lawyer. Or at least I don't believe you do in most states. Should be simple enough to prove Angel needs surgery and her breeder just doesn't want to do the right thing.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Ya small claim u can only sue up to 5k. I looked into the Florida small claims rules as well. I would not need a lawyer, I would go full on suits on her if I went the small claims way. Legally I'm on firm ground. If she wants to drag her feet I can play hard ball. I would rather not tho. Either way wife confirmed she wants to keep Angel. If we did small claims I would do the whole 5k amount on her, but she isn't required the pay the judgement so I still would be screwed in the regaurd.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Speaking of Angel- not sure why I didn't think about it being Saturday... but I started putting her in k9data (put her sire/dam in ) and then went to AKC to order their peds and once again- I need to call them as I cannot find my downloaded online research pedigrees.... does anyone else have to call AKC every single time they order a research pedigree? Maybe I just can't find it- my go-to is usually to call them and they email it to me.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Thank you prism for that. Cant wait to show my wife she will get a kick out of it. I talked with Macy to double check about bringing angel to the hunt test to see how she does with gun shots she said it is fine. First for all of us going to a hunt test.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Don't forget chairs/water (and $$ for I will be selling 50-50 tickets for MFGRC's Smiling blue Skies raffle)... it will be Monday before the pedigree is up, since I can't open up the file I downloaded on the AKC site.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Yep. let the wife know this morning.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Here is my final update for Angel. We will be giving her back to the breeder. After doing soul searching and lots and lots of research, prism can atest to this me and my wife have desided to give her back. We told the lady what we wanted but she kept saying no I had the law on my side and I was on very firm legal grounds. That being said after talking with Prism she made some very good points, if at 7 months we have had this many issues with her there is a extremely good likelihood we would have many more. After talking to a lawyer and reaffirming what prism already stated even if I brought the lady to court and won which I am confident i would there is a strong likelihood that the judgment would never be paid anyways. With a heavy and a VERY pissed heart i will be giving her back. Silver lining to this is I did find a breeder referred by prism and I am on the waitlist for her upcoming litter. I will be picking a male and I will be getting titles on him and getting my feet wet in every aspect, conformation, obedience, agility and tracking. Thank you for listening to all my prior rantings.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I am so sorry. I know it breaks your wife and your heart.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

What a horrible decision. This is a breeder that doesn’t care and your giving her back. What kind of life will this poor dog have. To me your just mad because you have a dog with defect. I feel so bad for this dog. Just because this happened doesn’t mean she will have other issues. This dog will probably end up in a horrible situation.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

You do realize if the breeder is like this she will probably have her put to sleep or sell her to another family and not tell them she has HD.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Cpc, it is very easy to play backseat quarterback without bring in that persons shoe. Yes I am doing this because I'm mad. So let's see cpc, 7 months and we had to deal with a parasite issue that as of now still isn't 100% taken of, she is bilateral dysplisic, our total bills as of yesterday are 1080, o and let's not forget she has a very bad fear issue that hasn't gotten better like we all where hoping is actually is getting worst and she has a this with her throat that is making weird sounds so yes there is a very good likelihood she will have other problems but yes according to you I am giving her back because I'm mad.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Cpc do you think I don't know this.... I tried to get her spayed before giving her back but they r booked for the next 2 weeks. You think this was a whim action. You think I want to give up a dog I have grown attached to or watch my wife cry NO I don't but I need to do what is best for my family.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Does your contract require you to give her back to this breeder? More than likely she will be euthanized; it will be hard to find another buyer with her known health issue of HD. The others are not diagnosed if I've read everything correctly.

If your contract does not require you to return Angel to the breeder, a reputable rescue would probably take her. No you would not get your money back, but Angel would be safer. Something to think about.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Spaying her wouldn’t stop the breeder from selling her. You don’t trade a dog in for a better model like a car.. Your dumping her because a bad hip for another puppy. No way if I was a reputable breeder would I be giving you a pup. I have been in your shoes with Chloe. She is our family and we will deal with it. When I was a kid we had a German shepard we had to rehome because we were broke. We gave him to someone who fixed his hip.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Is the breeder giving you a refund? I can't imagine giving this pup back to her breeder--she has numerous issues & your breeder has already proven she doesn't care. Why not turn her over to rescue so that she has a chance?

As for a new pup, I hope you really evaluate your finances. Anything can happen even if the pup comes from a reputable breeder, shoot a blockage is a costly affair & that has nothing to do w/ the quality of breeding. I think it's great you want to get involved w/ a new pup, but based on what you've already been through, financially, I hope you have a good honest evaluation of what you can/can't & won't do before making any promises to a breeder on what your plans are.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Yes the breeder is giving me a refund and reimbursing all the vet bills. Yes she has first right to refuse.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Nate83 said:


> Yes the breeder is giving me a refund and reimbursing all the vet bills. Yes she has first right to refuse.


Would she oppose you if decided to turn Angel over to a rescue? I don't think there is any way I would be able to turn a dog I had for 7 months back over to a breeder I didn't trust. If I couldn't afford the care of the dog, then I would try to find a rescue who would be willing to take her. Do you think the breeder would fight you on this? I know you love Angel and want what's best for her.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Sheets, I have taken stock of my finances and know my limits. Cpc the breeder is a VERY reputable one and I have been up front with her from the start, I have told her what is going on and everything else.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Jenn yes she already said no to the shelter idea. She shot it down instantly.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Nate83 said:


> Jenn yes she already said no to the shelter idea. She shot it down instantly.


A shelter is different than a rescue so not sure if she thought you were just going to take her the local animal shelter - not part of your conversations so have no way of knowing. It really comes down to what's in the contract. I got Duke from a BYB. Nowhere in the contract does it state he would have to go back to her. If something ever happens to me he will go to the rescue I volunteer for. If your contract specifically states that you have to give Angel back, then you're stuck. Hopefully, she will consider giving Angel to a rescue then. Otherwise, I don't think it looks good for Angel's future.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

I’m sorry to here this
Sometimes you need to do what you have to do. Not the outcome I was hoping for you guys.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Jenn your right I didn't differentiate between recuse and shelter. I will ask her.


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## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

I’m so sorry. This is so sad


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Cpc1972 said:


> Spaying her wouldn’t stop the breeder from selling her. You don’t trade a dog in for a better model like a car.. Your dumping her because a bad hip for another puppy. No way if I was a reputable breeder would I be giving you a pup. I have been in your shoes with Chloe. She is our family and we will deal with it. When I was a kid we had a German shepard we had to rehome because we were broke. We gave him to someone who fixed his hip.


I have now met Angel. 
She is a sad little thing - her poor pedigree is obvious from her appearance(and I know this because I researched her pedigree...in 48 dogs on the dam side there were 2 hip clearances, no heart, elbow or eyes and on the sire nothing ... it was clearly health problems in the making for generations) . It's clear that she is loved by Nate and his wife, but Nate (without thinking and the research that should have been done on the front end of a purchase) got a Golden so he could do some sports with the dog he got. He came to the agility trial a month ago, she can never do that. He came to the hunt test last weekend with Angel- she had no interest in the bird bucket, was more concerned about what might happen to her... 

It is my understanding that the resources for fixing her hip now are not there- and the law in FL says that they can keep her and get her purchase price refunded...but time is of the essence and the breeder/broker is refusing to take that avenue, so it would take a court case and all that time to get Angel's hip fixed. I think they prefer to keep her but would like her purchase price refunded so they can get her hip fixed. The FL lemon law is there to give people in this situation a way out- but the seller has to go along with it or all that is going to happen is they'll get a judgement- which no one has to pay in real life. Euthanizing her won't happen, I would bet- but reselling her probably will happen, and I hope that her next family has resources to fix her hips. And everything else that's wrong with her. 

Good breeders- good breeders always take back any puppy that has no longer got a home with the original buyer. I'm not putting this broker in that light- just pointing out that good breeders take precautions, do the best they can to be sure they don't produce multiple problems, and a good breeder would never have bred the animals that created Angel, or her sire and dam, or theirs. Generations of nothing there- no titles, 2 hips done, nothing. 
I know pet people and good breeders sometimes see things differently- I am a good breeder. There would never be a moment I would not do the right thing by a life I brought into the world. BUT when a person has multiple reasons for getting a dog, and does not have unlimited space/money/time/resources to have a bunch of dogs that cannot be what they wanted a dog for, why should that person have to keep the dog? Why not get a dog who can be a fabulous partner, a family member who is not so emotionally fragile they can't be out in public without fear? Why not get a dog that can enhance the family instead of be one problem after another? In a perfect world, Angel would have a good breeder who would take her back, make things right w Nate, and spend the time and money to make Angel right/whole again because the BREEDER is the one who made the choice to perpetuate a horribly risky pedigree. The breeder is the one who should be being shamed here. People take home puppies and change their minds when they realize how much work a puppy is ... a good breeder takes the puppy back, and refunds the money or most of it at least. Many good breeders do not sell competition puppies- I generally don't- because they do not want to have to deal with more than pet people- the people who take a dog and would not ever dream to send it back.. but I would every day of the week rather get a puppy back than see it lack care or be neglected or scolded too harshly because the people didn't expect the level of work required. So I guess I do not judge on that- I think it is a smart person who knows their limits and looks at the whole picture. 

In the show world, people place or send back puppies/young dogs all the time. Their bite goes off, they are out the door. Testicles don't stay down, they are out the door. It's not the same with a pet home (which is why I personally prefer to sell to pet homes and be the only show home my puppies go to myself... it takes longer for OS or OD but I don't have to worry about a lack of love).. but Nate's home is both a pet home and an aspiring competitor home. Should he give up his dream of running agility and tracking tests because he made a poor purchase? I am always going to encourage a new competitor because dog sport needs fresh eyes and hands... and I do not think the show community would look down on him for being put in a hard place and choosing the way out that lets him still start out and may let Angel get fixed. Whose responsibility was it to make sure Angel and her littermates were safe purchases? I wish I knew how to research owner names/addresses on AKC because there are a passel of them and maybe if this woman got hit w a bunch of demands for money back, she'd do the right thing and quit making puppies.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

It would be one thing if Angel was going back to a responsible breeder, but we all know she is not. I'm all for honoring my contract, but then again, I wouldn't have elected to have done business with the likes of Angel's breeder. IMO the OP is not a victim & it was his choice to support Angel's breeder with the purchase of her. If she is sold, another unsuspecting & uneducated family will be handed a heartbreak of a situation. I think surrendering her to rescue who has the will & resources to support this girl and eating the loss of the purchase price is the moral thing to do. Quite honestly, I bet this breeder doesn't have the $ to pay him back & that will be an IOU that goes unfulfilled.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Well what are the assurances the breeder is going to do the right thing. How do you know they will fix the hip or find a family that will? I really don’t care about not being able to do what he had envisioned. Sorry I don’t care if people do it all the time. A dog is not a comodity. What happens if the next puppy juSt by chance has the same thing. There are no guarantees. Yes the chances will be reduced but there is no guarantees in life.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Yep. No way will she get the dog fixed or tell a new family. If that’s the case she would just give you the money to fix her and not ask to want her back.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

First off sheet no it will nit be a IOU. I will not give Angel up with out the refund and reimbursement. You are right i made a terribly mistake and did not educate myself which I have and continue to do currently. Cpc you have very cynical view of things. In your perfect world things would be just right, well fact is it isn't perfect. If you get to the meat of things a dog is a dog.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Also sheet is isn't anyone so called choice if they don't know. If I went into it known what I know now then ya I'll be at fault. Well cpc you don't care what i envisioned and I don't care what you think. Be sheltered in your nice little cave.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Nope sorry. A dog is not just a dog. If that’s the way you think you should never have a pet. But what I do know is life isn’t perfect. Things happen and we make the best out of it. I am disabled so my world is far from perfect. Yes you Dumping your dog for a better model. I hope and pray you have assurances Angel will get fixed or go to a family that will fix her. I hope you can live with yourself if in a year with that new puppy you find out Angel was euthanized. I have been down this road and we learn to just find a way. If you can have assurances this dog would end up in good hands I would think differently.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

The only victim in this situation is the dog, end of story.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

I'll sleep just as well as you will. The fact is that a dog is a dog.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

I agree penny


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Nate83 wrote "If you get to the meat of things a dog is a dog."

I will never be able to understand this way of thinking. It is so very sad.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Because sol for me not to completely lose my stuff I need to have that mentality right now.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Nate83 said:


> Because sol for me not to completely lose my stuff I need to have that mentality right now.


You may want to consider whether you are actually ready for another dog.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Duely noted penny


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm not over thinking she will just refund the purchase price and let them keep her- 
I doubt such an un-everything (unsavory, disreputable etc) person could get the money back out of her - her only plus is she is house trained. But if you expect a Golden and look at Angel you do not see what one thinks of as a typical Golden. She's very slight, timid, etc. And too, this person would have to get a health certificate in order to comply with state law and I seriously doubt unless she has the vet in her pocket she will be able to get one. Which is another tact Nate could take with her. 

I think Nate knows they made a hasty and poor choice in Angel. Who knows but what the next family (if he'd not bought her) wouldn't have come here frustrated w her GI issues and parasites and we'd have known Angel by another name... I think he feels frustrated and angry and again it comes to the bad breeding practiced by the breeder- who is not the person who sells the puppies. 

You guys may think badly of me that I am ok with him doing what's right for his family and resources and desires for a dog he can work with. There are never any assurances that even the best bred litter won't have a puppy with problems in it, but hedging one's bets is a good thing when we deal with living things. Every puppy doesn't fit in the home it goes to- I got a puppy back one time after he was 9 months old and their child was 3 months old and really I would so much have preferred to have gotten him back before he'd totally been neglected due to new baby... it was a lot of work for me to rehab him. I got another back a week after she went home- they had underestimated the level of care required for a new baby. I'm sure they were both very glad I am not a breeder who takes responsibility lightly. But those two (and a couple others over the last 40 years) taught me not to judge, just to be glad I got them back and the buyers were honorable enough to respect our contract. Obviously the piece Nate's missing here is a good breeder, and he's now starting over with a good breeder who will stay in contact, be a support system for them and no, she cannot promise puppy won't swallow a sock and need an emergency surgery but I have a feeling Nate knows now to get some insurance for those situations. I'd like to imagine I won't be the only one here who supports him in earning that first performance title with a new puppy better suited to what he'd imagined a puppy would be like. And I hope the breeder/broker will rethink her market for older un-breed standard like Goldens and just cut her losses, giving him back the purchase price and let them keep her- and then it will be a matter of finding funds to fix her.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

boy! Ya'll do a lot of posting while I carefully write a post lol... I vote everyone sleep on it and try and understand how each feels.


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## joro32000 (Feb 25, 2017)

Nate83 said:


> If you get to the meat of things a dog is a dog.


Your statement saddens me. In fact I am shocked! I don’t know of any other dog owner who would think your way. We fight the battles for our dogs, be it a cancer or other conditions, many times celebrating small miracles even though we know we will lose in a near future. And you say a dog is just a dog, I can’t comprehend it. I wish you could never own another dog.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I understand resources can be an issue. Fixing hips is expensive. I think I would be tempted to break the contract and release Angel to a rescue; regardless of what the breeder wants. It doesn't sound like she's reputable and I highly doubt she would fight him after the fact - that would involve money and time. Then Nate can get the dog he wants and Angel stands a chance. 

I feel bad for Angel. She didn't ask to be brought into this world. The best possible scenario for her would to be to go to a rescue who is willing to help her with her hip issues (and other issues yet to be confirmed). The breeder will not do right by her. 

She may not be "the perfect golden", but she is a living being and loves her family; the only family she has known. She just wants to be loved for who she is, not who she isn't. I rescued a golden who has hip issues and fear issues. I didn't realize how severe it was at first. It's not easy and sometimes I wish it wasn't so hard. I always have had the option to give him back to the rescue. But he looks at me with trust and love and I could never do that to him. He's not just a dog to me, he's family. I wanted to do agility with him - but he can't. And because he's family, I work with what he can do. And I do take offense to anyone who would say he is "less golden than a perfectly bred golden."


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Was there even a purchase contract?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

jennretz said:


> I understand resources can be an issue. Fixing hips is expensive. I think I would be tempted to break the contract and release Angel to a rescue; regardless of what the breeder wants. It doesn't sound like she's reputable and I highly doubt she would fight him after the fact - that would involve money and time. Then Nate can get the dog he wants and Angel stands a chance.
> 
> I feel bad for Angel. She didn't ask to be brought into this world. The best possible scenario for her would to be to go to a rescue who is willing to help her with her hip issues (and other issues yet to be confirmed). The breeder will not do right by her.
> 
> She may not be "the perfect golden", but she is a living being and loves her family; the only family she has known. She just wants to be loved for who she is, not who she isn't. I rescued a golden who has hip issues and fear issues. I didn't realize how severe it was at first. It's not easy and sometimes I wish it wasn't so hard. I always have had the option to give him back to the rescue. But he looks at me with trust and love and I could never do that to him. He's not just a dog to me, he's family. I wanted to do agility with him - but he can't. And because he's family, I work with what he can do. And I do take offense to anyone who would say he is "less golden than a perfectly bred golden."


IF there is a contract with the breeder, the only issue with him breaking his contract and releasing her to a GR Rescue, the GR Rescue should require that he get a release from the Breeder first in order to surrender her to a group. Not sure the Breeder will be willing to do that and I hope the GR Rescue follows the requirement of obtaining the Breeder Release or they could be facing a legal issue.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Nate83 said:


> Duely noted penny


I don't envy the position you've been put in. It's easy to have opinions when its someone else's decision. I'm not judging, and you have to do what's right for you and your family. I'm just sad for Angel, as I've been reading your posts about her since you first joined this forum so I feel like I know her too. 

Any yes, like Robin said, I will be cheering you on when you do get that dog that can fulfill your performance goals. I too am new to the world of dog sports and they need new blood!


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> IF there is a contract with the breeder, the only issue with him breaking his contract and releasing her to a GR Rescue, the GR Rescue should require that he get a release from the Breeder first in order to surrender her to a group. Not sure the Breeder will be willing to do that and I hope the GR Rescue follows the requirement of obtaining the Breeder Release or they could be facing a legal issue.




You’re correct, but I think there’s a strong possibility he could get her to back down. It’s not in her best interest for it to get out her pups have health issues. Depends on how much time/effort one wants to put into fighting her. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I’m going to be one of the few that agrees with Prism, here, I imagine. A person can only do what they have the resources to do - whether financial, psychological, or time. Even in the best of situations, things might not work out and, sometimes, the most unselfish thing that you can do for your dog is admit that you are in over your head. Not everyone is equipped to home a dog with health issues or behavioral difficulties. Raising a healthy Golden is hard enough, as evidenced by half the threads on this forum. 

For all of you that think Angel should stay with Nate, no matter what, try to think about the psychological ramifications of that for his family and for Angel. It isn’t going to be an ideal situation for anyone. Angel is going to sense the frustration. In an ideal world, of course Nate would keep her, but the world is rarely ideal. This isn’t Angel’s fault, but it isn’t Nate’s either. He’s quite obviously done the best that he can, constantly asking for and implementing advice and help. The blame lies squarely on the breeder’s shoulders. It is an unfortunate situation and the best way to help is to keep trying to educate people about the importance of good breeding and clearances to minimize these types of situations.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Per the OPs request, I am closing thread.


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