# Im very disappointed in Pro Plan...food search



## 4theluvofgoldens (Dec 11, 2012)

when deciding on food for my boys I found a site www.dogfoodadvisor.com that really provided me with a lot of info. Good luck, I know how frustrating it can be.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Of your choices, given Lincoln's issues, I would not go with Eukanuba. I think it has too many ingredients that might cause problems for Linc. 
I am not a fan of Purina products, I think you know that, but if this particular diet agrees with Linc, in your situation, it is something to consider. 
I am not familiar with the President's Choice, never heard of it, but it doesn't sound bad to me either. So, I would go with Proplan or President's Choice.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

Before going through another food change, have you tried reducing the amount you feed a bit or one of the grain-inclusive Annamaet formulas?

In case those options don't pan, neither Precise nor Nutrisource are affordably accessible to you?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Garfield said:


> Before going through another food change, have you tried reducing the amount you feed a bit or one of the grain-inclusive Annamaet formulas?
> 
> In case those options don't pan, neither Precise nor Nutrisource are affordably accessible to you?


Precise and Nutrisource are not available to me here. I cannot get Grain inclusive Annamaet here anymore and hes already on 2 cups of the Salcha and barely maintaining his weight on that.

Im not to fond of Pro Plan, but, am willing to give it a go again if it helps him with all his issues


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

My two are on PPP Sensitive Skin and Stomach and are doing great on it. When I adopted my Remy from my County Humane Society almost 2 years ago, he was 15-20 lbs. underweight and was having some stomach issues and loose stools. After several trips to the Vets where he was given two separate rounds of Antibiotics, a med to coat his stomach prior to eating, and de-wormed twice. I was still having trouble getting weight on him. Both of mine were eating BB, it was too rich for them.Switched them both to PPP SS, Remy gained 15 llbs. and his coat started growing. Both of mine are doing really well on it.

Each dog is different though, key is finding a food that works for your dog. PPP SS works for mine. I would have NEVER tried the PPP SS if it hadn't been recommended by several members on here. I'm glad I gave it a try.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

I noticed you recommended coconut oil to a member in another thread. I give coconut oil to my dogs, but only a small amount. In the beginning, I was giving about a tablespoon with each meal. After a couple days of that they both got a horrible case of diarrhea that lasted several days. So bad that they each had a accident in the house cause they couldn't hold it. I stopped the coconut oil and stools finally turned very firm again after about a week. After a couple weeks I reintroduced the coconut oil, but I doubt I will ever give them more than about a teaspoon a day (1/2 teaspoon with each meal). They have been doing very well with that dose... very firm stools.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I have fed Pro Plan Sensitive and was very happy with it. It was the only food Bindi could tolerate after she had the puppies. She had terrible, grass-killing diarrhea and the ONLY thing that worked (including prescription stuff from the vet) was the Purina. Results were almost immediate.

You have to feed what works for your dog, and if it's Pro Plan, what the heck! I know a lot of gorgeous, healthy show dogs who eat Pro Plan.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I am SO NOT going to make snarky comments about the wonderful Annamaet or the people who push it and KNOW what they are talking about. *teasing*  

Is he allergic to grain? Or was it a personal choice to feed him grain free? 

And has he done well on the PP SS & S? I think you mentioned he was pooping more frequently and had larger poops? 

Me personally I would go back to a food that I know that my dog did well on. This after ruling out other issues (stress, treats, etc). If your dog ever had solid poop on Annamaet and this change is recent, you might simply be dealing with a dietary indiscretion that needs babying until it clears up. 

If he's not keeping weight on - heck, I'd keeping feeding Bertie puppy food if it came to that.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Megora said:


> I am SO NOT going to make snarky comments about the wonderful Annamaet or the people who push it and KNOW what they are talking about. *teasing*
> 
> Is he allergic to grain? Or was it a personal choice to feed him grain free?
> 
> ...


Megora, he was on the SSS formula when he had a bout of runs I could not figure out. I put him on it and no joke the next day he firmed up. He was still itching and scratching on SSS formula and at that point in time I had a vet telling me it was food allergies so we thought chicken, corn and wheat were culprits. I may possibly be able to get over not feeding corn, but wheat I am not to sure about after losing a dog to the tainted wheat gluten im a little hesitant on feeding it. 

In the 2 months hes been on Annamaet hes had 1 almost normal poop. The rest of a mushy, sometimes formed mushy pile of poo. Massive gas as well some days it makes me gag. 

As for grain free it was a personal choice. I used to feed prey model raw, and got caught up in the food snob crap but now im a bit more open to things. 

As for food he was on Pro Plan and he was on Nutro as a puppy and IIRC he did fine on that as well. His poops were perfect on Acana but I just cannot fathom paying $80 after taxes for a 28lb bag of food

As for Annamaet, if he would do good on this food I would continue to feed it. My cats, will continue to eat it because they love it.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

The PPP SSS does not have corn in it, it's Salmon. My guys had problems with Chicken, Turkey, and lamb formulas.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I've fed the Selects line before and it did not have corn, wheat or soy.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

I too go to "dogfoodadvisor", you'll get a great education. I fed Murphy Orijen and his poop was a little soft. I now feed "brothers". You must buy direct from them and the shipping is free over $50.00. It's not cheap but you'll feed alot less. Go to "BrothersComplete.com". They will send free samples. You can email them questions and they get back to you very quickly (it is run by two brothers). Murph likes the fish and beef food. Good Luck!!


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

4theluvofgoldens said:


> when deciding on food for my boys I found a site www.dogfoodadvisor.com that really provided me with a lot of info. Good luck, I know how frustrating it can be.


i wouldnt trust that website, they clearly have their own agenda. 

As for food, eukanuba has alot of iffy ingredients, and im not too fond of purina, try fromm or acana. I have a friend who feeds Presidents choice dog food, and although for its price its pretty good, there are alot better options. Just wondering, no offence meant at all what soever just curious, but you dont have a golden retriever, nor does it seem like you have owned a golden any time recently, why are you on a golden retriever forum?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> i wouldnt trust that website, they clearly have their own agenda.
> 
> As for food, eukanuba has alot of iffy ingredients, and im not too fond of purina, try fromm or acana. I have a friend who feeds Presidents choice dog food, and although for its price its pretty good, there are alot better options. Just wondering, no offence meant at all what soever just curious, but you dont have a golden retriever, nor does it seem like you have owned a golden any time recently, why are you on a golden retriever forum?


Hes been on Acana before but I dont like the price and quality. 

I was not aware I needed to own a Golden Retriever in order to be on the forum? Did this become a rule I was not made aware of? I had a GR when I was a kid, actually, 2. I have an interest in the breed and in the future hope to own one and like responsible people do they research the breed before hand. I have family who own Goldens that Lincoln plays with sometimes. 

Hopefully, thats reason enough for you to be satisfied with me being on a GR forum, if not, Oh well

Lincoln and Jake


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Tuco said:


> i wouldnt trust that website, they clearly have their own agenda.
> 
> As for food, eukanuba has alot of iffy ingredients, and im not too fond of purina, try fromm or acana. I have a friend who feeds Presidents choice dog food, and although for its price its pretty good, there are alot better options. Just wondering, no offence meant at all what soever just curious, b*ut you dont have a golden retriever, nor does it seem like you have owned a golden any time recently, why are you on a golden retriever forum*?


Seriously?? Please try to be a bit more civil to forum members. I have read several posts that are judgmental. We don't need that. Thank you.

Edited because I didn't want to sound judgmental either


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

What else is Lincoln ingesting (supplements, treats) is he getting coconut oil? I think part of the issue with all of his past food changes posted about on this forum is he was never on any one thing long enough & the addition/removal of several supplements during food changes. Too many variables makes it difficult to pinpoint the source of the problem.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> What else is Lincoln ingesting (supplements, treats) is he getting coconut oil? I think part of the issue with all of his past food changes posted about on this forum is he was never on any one thing long enough & the addition/removal of several supplements during food changes. Too many variables makes it difficult to pinpoint the source of the problem.


He has been on food long enough. He was on Pro Plan for 3-4 months, Acana 6-7 months. He is not taking any supplements other then his joint supplement and soloxine for his thyroid. Thats it and thats all hes been on for 3 months


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Guys i swear it was purely curiousity No offence, hostility NOTHING MEANT, just curious, i know you dont need to have a golden to be a forum, i just figured a golden forum would generally have golden owning members, i was just wondering if you had like a sister with a golden, or a golden that passed or some other circumstance like that.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

anyway, the best from what ive heard and read are Fromm, by nature organics, evo red meat, and earthborn holistics. I know acanna is popular as well as blue wilderness salmon


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> Guys i swear it was purely curiousity No offence, hostility NOTHING MEANT, just curious, i know you dont need to have a golden to be a forum, i just figured a golden forum would generally have golden owning members, i was just wondering if you had like a sister with a golden, or a golden that passed or some other circumstance like that.


Circumstances shouldn't matter or dictate why I am on a Golden Forum....I have been a member of this forum for almost a year and a half, some people like me, some people don't. I had two Goldens growing up that were taken from me tragically, and I will be getting another at some point.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

They shouldnt madder, im just a curious person


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> They shouldnt madder, im just a curious person


So am I......


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm a big fan of Eukanuba from years and years of feeding it and having healthy, bright-eyed, lean-muscled dogs with no skin or ear issues (aside from the occasional swimming-related yeast infection in the summer). In fact, when Jax was little (on a raw diet), he had pretty flaky skin, but it got significantly better once we'd had him for a few months. Whether it was simply age or diet, it's hard to say, but he has thrived on the high-fat, high-protein Euk blend (PP 30/20).

Based on research and personal experience of quite a long while feeding it, I'm a huge fan. From a purely logical, statistical standpoint, the hullaballoo over some of the individual ingredients seems overblown to me.

Given Linc's thyroid issue, I highly doubt the itchy skin is an atopic skin reaction to a food allergy. It's just not that likely. And even if it were an allergy, wheat and corn are really far down the list. If you read forums and dog food advice websites, they often make it sound like a majority of dogs are allergic to wheat and corn. If you read peer-reviewed papers on canine allergies, you find out that they're really far down the list of common allergens and that most atopy isn't due to food in the first place.

Most commonly, the dogs are getting flea bites before the topical kills the fleas. Flea dermatitis is by far the most common cause of itching.

I'd pick a food and stay with it for longer than a few months. I'd go with either the ProPlan skin and stomach or the Euk sensitive skin.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Regarding dog food advisor, What agenda could they have? They list hundreds of different dog foods with the ingredients, listing what is probably good and what is bad. The reader makes up their own mind. It's plain to see what the good foods are and the bad by reading ingredients!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I'm a big fan of Eukanuba from years and years of feeding it and having healthy, bright-eyed, lean-muscled dogs with no skin or ear issues (aside from the occasional swimming-related yeast infection in the summer). In fact, when Jax was little (on a raw diet), he had pretty flaky skin, but it got significantly better once we'd had him for a few months. Whether it was simply age or diet, it's hard to say, but he has thrived on the high-fat, high-protein Euk blend (PP 30/20).
> 
> Based on research and personal experience of quite a long while feeding it, I'm a huge fan. From a purely logical, statistical standpoint, the hullaballoo over some of the individual ingredients seems overblown to me.
> 
> ...


He was on the Pro Plan SSS before and he seemed to do okay on it. He was itching on it but now I realize his itching is likely thyroid and environmental stuff. Maybe I will go back to Pro Plan. The Eukanuba Sensitive skin is 28lbs for $65.99 thats pretty much the same price as Acana for the same amount. Pro Plan is $58.99 for 40lbs (soon to be 33lbs as they changed bag sizes). 

Now, should I do this formula
Purina Pro Plan Specialized Nutrition Sensitive Skin and Stomach Formula

or 

Purina Pro Plan Selects Sensitive Skin & Stomach Formula

Not sure if the second one is readily available at my petsmart but I know the first one is


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

We have a pretty bad chicken allergy here. PP SSS worked for me for a little while, but after trying multiple times to get in touch with purina to ask questions about the ingredients with no response, I decided that if they couldn't be bothered to answer my questions, I couldn't be bothered to spend money on their food. I feed Fromm Salmon a la Veg. It's an excellent food and he's doing great. It's definitely one to consider.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The people who are serious, long term ProPlan folks don't seem to like the selects, for what it's worth.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

murphy1 said:


> Regarding dog food advisor, What agenda could they have? They list hundreds of different dog foods with the ingredients, listing what is probably good and what is bad. The reader makes up their own mind. It's plain to see what the good foods are and the bad by reading ingredients!


They have a philosophy about dog food, and they rate the foods accordingly. They don't rely on research or even on hard science about dog nutrition. They perpetuate myths and scares about ingredients and then rate foods by ingredient lists, with absolutely evidence whatsoever on how dogs actually do on foods.

For selling ads, it's a great formula. For providing serious, evidence-based advice about nutrition, it leaves a lot to be desired.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

although i do agree that corn and wheat are generally over played, they still are nutritiously useless and dogs cant digest them properly, although not many are actually allergic to them, its still wise to stay away from them.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

and as for eukanuba, ive tried eukanuba in the past when we had to go camping and switch our dogs onto kibble. out of the 4 foods i fed i didnt see any improvement in them in the 6 weeks they would eat it for any of them, but 1 of them i didnt see any change between how they were on raw and how they were when camping and that was fromm grain free surf and turf. Iams, was the first food we ever tried when going camping, and hell i regretted it, they got so lethargic and less energetic and had the runs, so bad that after 3 weeks we switched onto eukanuba, cant remember the particular type, we saw a big improvement, but after we went home we realized the improvement was compared to IAMS and they did really well back on raw, so the next year we did eukanuba again, didnt do as well, just generally mellowed out, we dealt with it for the 6 weeks, then we put them back on raw when we got home, next time we tryed acana for the spring camping trip for about 2 weeks, they did ok on it, again alittlle more mellow. We continued using acana switching with pro plan once (didnt go well) a friend of ours recomended fromm, we tryed it, it had the lowest reaction to them, although the shock of the change in foods may have played a role, I do believe the quality of the foods. Just because your perfectly healthy on regular veggies and meat doesnt mean it isnt better for you to switch to organic veggies and grass fed meat. I dont like the "if it aint broke dont fix it" idea.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I'd pick a food and stay with it for longer than a few months.


This is what I would do.

And I am a huge believer "if it ain't broke don't fix it" Both my boys have done wonderful on Iams.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> although i do agree that corn and wheat are generally over played, they still are nutritiously useless and dogs cant digest them properly, although not many are actually allergic to them, its still wise to stay away from them.


There is no evidence the statement that corn and wheat "are nutritiously useless and dogs cant digest them properly." That's just something people say on forums and dog food websites.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

ive been considering trying the back 2 basics dog food for tucos first camping trip, i like the fact that its got no potato, grains, corn, or any of that stuff, just meat, organs, and veggies, still contemplating whether to try it, or just stick with fromm like my old dogs, i kinda wish i had this option for macin since he has a sensitivity to potatoes, and fromm gave him a rash



> And I am a huge believer "if it ain't broke don't fix it" Both my boys have done wonderful on Iams.


I dont know if you know whats in IAMS but please, read the ingredients , figure out what they are, lol, and then consider if you want to feed your dogs that stuff. I consider it the dog food equivalent of mcdonalds


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> and as for eukanuba, ive tried eukanuba in the past when we had to go camping and switch our dogs onto kibble. out of the 4 foods i fed i didnt see any improvement in them in the 6 weeks they would eat it for any of them, but 1 of them i didnt see any change between how they were on raw and how they were when camping and that was fromm grain free surf and turf. Iams, was the first food we ever tried when going camping, and hell i regretted it, they got so lethargic and less energetic and had the runs, so bad that after 3 weeks we switched onto eukanuba, cant remember the particular type, we saw a big improvement, but after we went home we realized the improvement was compared to IAMS and they did really well back on raw, so the next year we did eukanuba again, didnt do as well, just generally mellowed out, we dealt with it for the 6 weeks, then we put them back on raw when we got home, next time we tryed acana for the spring camping trip for about 2 weeks, they did ok on it, again alittlle more mellow. We continued using acana switching with pro plan once (didnt go well) a friend of ours recomended fromm, we tryed it, it had the lowest reaction to them, although the shock of the change in foods may have played a role, I do believe the quality of the foods. Just because your perfectly healthy on regular veggies and meat doesnt mean it isnt better for you to switch to organic veggies and grass fed meat. I dont like the "if it aint broke dont fix it" idea.


You may not like the philosophy, but look how many times your dogs got sick with all your food switching, just in this one little paragraph.

And if my dogs had any more energy, we could hook them up to a generator and keep the lights on in the entire neighborhood.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Correction, it has a very low nutritional value relative to other possible alternative ingredients, and it is only as digestible as the ammount it is processed. Basically its a filler that could not be properly digested without processing and poses a low nutritional value relative to other potential ingrediant alternatives


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Correction, it has a very low nutritional value relative to other possible alternative ingredients, and it is only as digestible as the ammount it is processed. Basically its a filler that could not be properly digested without processing and poses a low nutritional value relative to other potential ingrediant alternatives


What do you mean by "low nutritional value?" Corn and wheat are loaded with carbs and vitamins. They have _different_ nutrients than meat, but not a "low" amount (whatever that means).


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tuco said:


> ive been considering trying the back 2 basics dog food for tucos first camping trip, i like the fact that its got no potato, grains, corn, or any of that stuff, just meat, organs, and veggies, still contemplating whether to try it, or just stick with fromm like my old dogs, i kinda wish i had this option for macin since he has a sensitivity to potatoes, and fromm gave him a rash
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know if you know whats in IAMS but please, read the ingredients , figure out what they are, lol, and then consider if you want to feed your dogs that stuff. I consider it the dog food equivalent of mcdonalds


I read the ingredients both my boys breeders had them on Iams so I kept them on it. Neither one of my boys had/have problems. I see no point in fixing something that ain't broke. Or mess with their digestive system because someone considers Iams equivalent to mcdonalds. Not in a million years LOL!


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## dwiley (Aug 19, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> There is no evidence the statement that corn and wheat "are nutritiously useless and dogs cant digest them properly." That's just something people say on forums and dog food websites.





tippykayak said:


> What do you mean by "low nutritional value?" Corn and wheat are loaded with carbs and vitamins. They have _different_ nutrients than meat, but not a "low" amount (whatever that means).


Actually, that's not true. Dogs are carnivores and thrive on a diet that consists primarily of protein. Sure, a little wheat or corn here or there probably isn't going to kill them, but that doesn't mean that is the best thing to feed them. Dogs are almost identical genetically to wolves, and their physiological needs are the same. Corn and wheat DO have a low nutritional value for dogs, because they aren't easily digested and thus provide no value when added to a dog's food.

First and foremost, dogs lack the enzyme amylase in their saliva, which allows the breakdown of carbohydrates into sugar (which is the only way they can be used for energy by the body). Because they lack this enzyme, their digestive system must rely on pancreatic amylase to digest carbohydrates. This is important because the digestive tract of dogs is much shorter than in humans - the small intestines are 5-6 times body length versus the 7-11 times you see in humans. That is because animal protein is easily digested and quickly broken down. Vegetable protein takes much longer. Additionally, the pH of a canine digestive system is much more acidic than any omnivores. This acidic environment is suitable for digesting a large amount of protein, particularly raw and maybe slightly rancid meat with a heavy bacteria load (don't forget, dogs are scavengers). Amylase is also not functional at such a low pH. Therefore, very little carbohydrate breakdown happens in the stomach, and must happen in the digestive tract. In humans, this process starts in the mouth due to the salivary amylase. In dogs, this process cannot begin until the food reaches the small intestines and can be exposed to the pancreatic amylase. Because the canine digestive tract is so short, that leaves a much smaller window for that digestion to happen. Anything else is expelled as waste.

All of these things (plus many more) are scientific reasons why dogs are carnivores and do better on diets consisting mainly of protein. I could go on and on about it, addressing their mouth size and teeth shape, but I think the point is made. Obviously it is everyone's choice what to feed their dog, and lots of dogs do okay on foods with grains. By all means - use what works for you, but don't do so under the guise of pretending there is no proof. What you choose to read and believe is your prerogative, but you can't argue with science and years of evolution.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I already felt guilty feeding Purina to begin with, now im even more guiltier. If I did not have a dog with so many issues, I would be feeding raw right now but with his compromised immune system I just cant do raw again with him. 

Unfortunately Purina is one of the brands mine has been able to eat so what can one do. Feel guilty=dog that poops good and seems to be doing okay or a dog that has mushy poops, my wallet is empty and I have no guilt except for putting him through that. 

Again, he would be staying on the Annamaet if he would do well on it. I dont care for the itching anymore, I just want his poops to firm up. Its not right to constantly have mushy poops to the point your anal glands are becoming impacted. He was fine expressing them until he started with the mushy poops


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Er.... I don't think anyone disputes the fact that a main portion of a dog's diet is meat? *confused* 

But they are omnivores. They eat veggies - easily. Some veggies calm their digestive systems down. Your grains are satisfying and filling for the dogs - and again calm their systems down. 

I can assure you that having gone through pancreatitis twice with a previous golden, we had to be careful about him getting too much meaty people food. We had no such concerns about him getting vegetables. 

Recently when my Jacks had either a MAJOR LEAGUE reaction from getting too much cheez whiz, or possibly he had a minor stomach bug - I cooked a weeks worth of boiled hamburger, boiled rice, and boiled potatoes. There was like 2 cups of hamburger meat and 5 cups of the combined rice and potatoes. This immediately calmed his problem. 

And beyond that - you know it's spring when the dogs go outside and graze on the fresh spring grass. I've talked to friends and it's all the same thing. They crave grass after a long winter. 

It's simplistic thinking, I know...  

Right down to if my dog has a piece of meat that he shouldn't have, I can usually get him running to the kitchen to trade for a piece of bread. Even my puppy - little carnivore in training who was running around with one of our cat's kills (dead mouse) the other day... he dropped the bloody dead mouse in a heartbeat when he saw me pick up the bread bag.


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

*WHY* would you feel guilty feeding your dog something he does well on? Because some idiotic dog food website told you it wasn't a 5-star quality food? Because other owners think it's crap? Guess what? It doesn't matter! What matters is that your dog does well on it and is healthy. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy inside for him to eat ProPlan rather than a raw diet. Obviously, that doesn't work for his system. It's about HIM, not you. He can't get used to a food with you changing it every few months. How do I know? I did it too. Mushy poop after mushy poop after mushy poop and changing food every couple of months to figure out what worked. Chicken, lamb, grain-free, corn-free, rice and oatmeal, the list goes on and on. When I stopped changing foods, the poop firmed up. If the people from ProPlan could've been bothered for 15 minutes to sit down and reply to my e-mail, there's a good chance he'd still be on PPSSS. However, they didn't do that. So I'm not wasting my money with them. It just so happens that the people Fromm answered me back quickly and efficiently MULTIPLE times. They gave me the answers I wanted and needed and offered to help in any way they could. Fromm is the food we ended up on and it works, beautifully. Stick to what WORKS.

E-mail different companies if you need to. Search. Ask questions. Then decide. Don't just change foods constantly.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

dexter0125 said:


> *WHY* would you feel guilty feeding your dog something he does well on? Because some idiotic dog food website told you it wasn't a 5-star quality food? Because other owners think it's crap? Guess what? It doesn't matter! What matters is that your dog does well on it and is healthy. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make you feel warm and fuzzy inside for him to eat ProPlan rather than a raw diet. Obviously, that doesn't work for his system. It's about HIM, not you. He can't get used to a food with you changing it every few months. How do I know? I did it too. Mushy poop after mushy poop after mushy poop and changing food every couple of months to figure out what worked. Chicken, lamb, grain-free, corn-free, rice and oatmeal, the list goes on and on. When I stopped changing foods, the poop firmed up. If the people from ProPlan could've been bothered for 15 minutes to sit down and reply to my e-mail, there's a good chance he'd still be on PPSSS. However, they didn't do that. So I'm not wasting my money with them. It just so happens that the people Fromm answered me back quickly and efficiently MULTIPLE times. They gave me the answers I wanted and needed and offered to help in any way they could. Fromm is the food we ended up on and it works, beautifully. Stick to what WORKS.
> 
> E-mail different companies if you need to. Search. Ask questions. Then decide. Don't just change foods constantly.


He had perfect stools on Acana, I didnt switch him because of the poops. He also did well on pro plan a while back. 

I was feeding a combo of Purina and a couple other brands canned food as my previous dogs meals. He got half a can of food mixed into his Nutro kibble daily. He was my show pup, had a ton of plans for him. Until he went into kidney failure...at 7 months. No clue why, until the 2007 menu food recall hit (he got sick end of January recalls announced in March). I lost him, in front of my eyes there was nothing I could do. Then, on top of that the same year my Rottie up and died one night, just died..in his bed. Confirmed Hemangio, was it food related in any way? No I dont think so he was on a different brand and only got a spoon of Purina here and there I doubt it was enough to effect him...but still. It hit, and it hit me hard. 

I swore after that, I would never feed another Purina product again, or another product effected by that recall. I also swore to myself I would never own another Shepherd again. I cant even look at another one. This, this is why I would feel horribly guilty if I fed this, feel like im doing my late guy a misdeed or something. 

But, I am starting to understand that, some dogs do well on pro plan, some cant handle "high quality" foods like Orijen and stuff. I just do not have full trust in Purina yet, but I am willing to give it a go. If this dog dies because of a recall like 2007, then I give up on owning dogs all together


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

dwiley said:


> Actually, that's not true. Dogs are carnivores and thrive on a diet that consists primarily of protein. Sure, a little wheat or corn here or there probably isn't going to kill them, but that doesn't mean that is the best thing to feed them. Dogs are almost identical genetically to wolves, and their physiological needs are the same. Corn and wheat DO have a low nutritional value for dogs, because they aren't easily digested and thus provide no value when added to a dog's food.


Sigh. Dogs are in the carnivora order and are considered (taxonomically) a subspecies of gray wolf. That doesn't make them "nearly identical" in their nutritional needs. Dogs evolved alongside humans for at least 10,000 years, adapting to that diet. Their needs are not identical to that of wolves.

And to say that corn and wheat provide "no value" is nonsensical. Do you think they just pass through unaltered?



dwiley said:


> First and foremost, dogs lack the enzyme amylase in their saliva, which allows the breakdown of carbohydrates into sugar (which is the only way they can be used for energy by the body). Because they lack this enzyme, their digestive system must rely on pancreatic amylase to digest carbohydrates. This is important because the digestive tract of dogs is much shorter than in humans - the small intestines are 5-6 times body length versus the 7-11 times you see in humans. That is because animal protein is easily digested and quickly broken down. Vegetable protein takes much longer. Additionally, the pH of a canine digestive system is much more acidic than any omnivores. This acidic environment is suitable for digesting a large amount of protein, particularly raw and maybe slightly rancid meat with a heavy bacteria load (don't forget, dogs are scavengers). Amylase is also not functional at such a low pH. Therefore, very little carbohydrate breakdown happens in the stomach, and must happen in the digestive tract. In humans, this process starts in the mouth due to the salivary amylase. In dogs, this process cannot begin until the food reaches the small intestines and can be exposed to the pancreatic amylase. Because the canine digestive tract is so short, that leaves a much smaller window for that digestion to happen. Anything else is expelled as waste.


You use lots of sciencey-sounding words, but you're not engaging in science. You're not evaluating the evidence and making decisions from it. You're making a decision and then finding cherrypicked evidence for your claims.

For example:

#1: Amylase is not the only enzyme that breaks down carbs. Saying dogs don't have it in their saliva is picking one of dozens of elements of the digestive process and acting like it's the whole story of processing starch. What you've written implies that amylase is the whole story, which is not correct.

#2: Even the numbers you posted about intestine length (assume they're accurate) would seem to indicate that dogs would only have 15% less small intestine, hardly a dramatic difference that would imply that they would have zero access to nutrients that humans had easy access to.

#3: I actually looked it up a couple of weeks ago when Tuco posted almost exactly the same arguments you did, and the statement that dogs have "much more acidic" stomachs than humans is not supported by the evidence. It's just a claim that people post in these debates. The reality is that the pH in both dog and human stomachs varies wildly between individuals and times of day. If you can find some single metric of pH in mammalian stomachs, I'm all ears.

#4: Your argument doesn't even make sense internally. If amylase doesn't function at high pH, then the claim that salivary amylase is the key difference (since, by your logic, it stops working in the stomach), makes no sense. How long is food really in the human mouth and esophagus, really?

#5: Even if you play the "amylase is the only enzyme that matters" game, it's helpful to note that dogs have far more pancreatic amylase than true obligate carnivores (like cats). It's something like triple the amount.



dwiley said:


> All of these things (plus many more) are scientific reasons why dogs are carnivores and do better on diets consisting mainly of protein. I could go on and on about it, addressing their mouth size and teeth shape, but I think the point is made. Obviously it is everyone's choice what to feed their dog, and lots of dogs do okay on foods with grains. By all means - use what works for you, but don't do so under the guise of pretending there is no proof. What you choose to read and believe is your prerogative, but you can't argue with science and years of evolution.


_Mainly_ protein, yes. I didn't argue for vegan dog food. I'm arguing against the silly overstatement that corn and wheat have "no" or "low" value when the evidence is rather clear that dogs can get lots of nutrition from a reasonable amount of them. In fact, nobody makes all-meat kibbles. Even when they're "grain free," they simply replace it with a different starch.

The fact is that dogs don't typically thrive on all-meat diets. That's why nobody makes all meat kibbles. Dogs do wonderfully with an appropriate amount of starch. You can tell it's appropriate because the dog is thriving. I've got two on the couch right here. If corn and wheat were just "filler" and passed straight through them, how could they be so healthy?

In fact, you said yourself earlier that you feed these foods:



dwiley said:


> Orijen was always too much fat for my Yorkies and they gained weight on it. We feed Acana which is a little bit less rich, and Tucker has switched over to it also. We feed the Chicken and Burbank Potato, which does have a single source of grains (oats), but have feed grain-free Ranchlands in the past. Tucker seems to be doing well on it!


Even Ranchlands, the "grain free" food you plug here, has potatoes, pumpkin, apples, and spinach in it. Hardly a food you'd give a carnivore if you really believed what you wrote.

So do you believe in the argument you just made or the food you feed? 'Cause you can't have both.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> I have fed Pro Plan Sensitive and was very happy with it. It was the only food Bindi could tolerate after she had the puppies. She had terrible, grass-killing diarrhea and the ONLY thing that worked (including prescription stuff from the vet) was the Purina. Results were almost immediate.
> 
> You have to feed what works for your dog, and if it's Pro Plan, what the heck! I know a lot of gorgeous, healthy show dogs who eat Pro Plan.


I fully agree with this. We've had our boys on Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach for around 3 years now and have absolutely gorgeous coats. A good friend of ours has a couple of Cairn Terriers who were having ongoing skin issues and hair loss from so much scratching and chewing. My husband and I recommended that she try Pro Plan SSS, which she did, and their skin issues were totally cleared up within a week or two and their hair started growing back and looked much healthier. 

As already mentioned, you have to see what works for your dog and stick with that.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> What do you mean by "low nutritional value?" Corn and wheat are loaded with carbs and vitamins. They have _different_ nutrients than meat, but not a "low" amount (whatever that means).


I wasnt talking about compared to meats, thats a different issue, i meant compared to other carbs such as potatoes and brown rice.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> Sigh. Dogs are in the carnivora order and are considered (taxonomically) a subspecies of gray wolf. That doesn't make them "nearly identical" in their nutritional needs. Dogs evolved alongside humans for at least 10,000 years, adapting to that diet. Their needs are not identical to that of wolves.
> 
> And to say that corn and wheat provide "no value" is nonsensical. Do you think they just pass through unaltered?
> 
> ...


Dogs are inobligate carnivores, or omnivores with very carnivorous characteristics, and although corn and wheat do not go through unaltered, they have very little nutrition RELATIVE to other carbs, what you really want to be feeding them is other carbs and non meats, like greens, pumpkin, berries, fruit. They can thrive just as well on A pure meat diet as they can on a vegan diet (ive seen afew who have done really well) But the carbs, they can thrive without, and from what ive seen the carb and starch free dogs are generally healthier than those without, note that corn and wheat need to be processed before the dogs can properly digest them


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> He had perfect stools on Acana, I didnt switch him because of the poops. He also did well on pro plan a while back.
> 
> I was feeding a combo of Purina and a couple other brands canned food as my previous dogs meals. He got half a can of food mixed into his Nutro kibble daily. He was my show pup, had a ton of plans for him. Until he went into kidney failure...at 7 months. No clue why, until the 2007 menu food recall hit (he got sick end of January recalls announced in March). I lost him, in front of my eyes there was nothing I could do. Then, on top of that the same year my Rottie up and died one night, just died..in his bed. Confirmed Hemangio, was it food related in any way? No I dont think so he was on a different brand and only got a spoon of Purina here and there I doubt it was enough to effect him...but still. It hit, and it hit me hard.
> 
> ...


Before you switch, try feeding some MEaty bones with his kibble, This is the natural way they would counteract the laxitive effects of the organ meat they would consume naturally. If it doesnt work, than do whats best for your dog, but i would still try 1 or 2 foods before you decide


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Dogs are inobligate carnivores, or omnivores with very carnivorous characteristics, and although corn and wheat do not go through unaltered, they have very little nutrition RELATIVE to other carbs, what you really want to be feeding them is other carbs and non meats, like greens, pumpkin, berries, fruit. They can thrive just as well on A pure meat diet as they can on a vegan diet (ive seen afew who have done really well) But the carbs, they can thrive without, and from what ive seen the carb and starch free dogs are generally healthier than those without, note that corn and wheat need to be processed before the dogs can properly digest them


What's the evidence that pumpkin or berries is better for dogs than corn or wheat?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Another one that has consumed the KoolAid.



> _Corn and wheat DO have a low nutritional value for dogs, because they aren't easily digested and thus provide no value when added to a dog's food._


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize this statement is utter rubbish. The top selling brand of kibble in north america is nearly ALL corn and wheat with a touch of bone meal and fat added. There are litterally millions of dogs that eat it each day and they aren't starving to death. Therefore the statement above can't be factual.


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## dwiley (Aug 19, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> Another one that has consumed the KoolAid.
> 
> It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize this statement is utter rubbish. The top selling brand of kibble in north america is nearly ALL corn and wheat with a touch of bone meal and fat added. There are litterally millions of dogs that eat it each day and they aren't starving to death. Therefore the statement above can't be factual.


I don't understand why we can't disagree about nutrition without getting personal. It doesn't take rocket science to read what I posted. I never said dogs are starving to death. The top selling brand of kibble in North America is top selling probably due to marketing and lack of research on the part of the owners. But _*clearly*_... because everyone is using it, it's the best food.  There are also millions of people who eat nothing but junk that certainly aren't staving to death. I said that dogs thrive and do best on a meat-based diet. Please revisit your definition of facts.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

If I'm paying sixty to seventy dollars for a bag of dog food the first few ingredients better be meat, meat based, eggs and high quality vegetables NOT cheap fillers like corn or wheat.
When I looked at one of the expensive "prescription" Iams food in the Vet's office and the first ingredient is corn I laugh. What a rip off!!!


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

well first of all, nutrition, they get more benefits from those as an example, second they can digest them fully in their natural form, corn or wheat, the extent they can digest is the extent they are processed, for corn aparently they can digest about 91% of the usual grind in kibble (although depending on the brand it can vary from 82% - 98%). in addition, corn and wheat are the least nutritious of any of the other carbohydrates such as rice, barley, and potato. Naturally a dog (and im not talking wolves here) would not be consuming ANY of these carbohydrates, nor could they digest them, and even ground it takes increased effort to digest them. and although the allergy concern is way over blown it still plays an unnessesary risk. Even though you can make the point that corn does contain some protein, antioxidants, and fatty acids, there are many better, more abundant, more digestable potential sources


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

> Corn and wheat DO have a low nutritional value for dogs, because they aren't easily digested and thus provide no value when added to a dog's food.


they have a LOWER RELATIVE nutritional value, compared to other starches, they are easily digestable, just not as easily as other foods, and are only as digestable as they are processed


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## dwiley (Aug 19, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> #1: Amylase is not the only enzyme that breaks down carbs. Saying dogs don't have it in their saliva is picking one of dozens of elements of the digestive process and acting like it's the whole story of processing starch. What you've written implies that amylase is the whole story, which is not correct.


Amylase is certainly not the only enzyme that breaks down carbohydrates, but it is the one that catalyzes the breakdown of polysaccharides into monosaccharides, disaccharides - which can then be broken down into glucose molecules. Monosaccharides are broken down into glucose, galactose, and fructose. Disaccharides are broken down into maltose and lactose. It is only after these polysaccharides are broken down (by amylase) that monosaccharides and disaccharides can be broken down with aid of other digestive enzymes (maltase, sucrase, and lactase). It's been a long time since I took Cell Biology, but this is my understanding. Please, feel free to chime in with the whole story. Sorry if this is too "science-sounding" but there really is no other way to explain it.



tippykayak said:


> #4: Your argument doesn't even make sense internally. If amylase doesn't function at high pH, then the claim that salivary amylase is the key difference (since, by your logic, it stops working in the stomach), makes no sense. How long is food really in the human mouth and esophagus, really?


Actually, amylase doesn't function at a *low* pH. Acidic = low pH. Salivary amylase is very important in chemical digestion and begins the breakdown process in the mouth and esophagus. Additionally, the chewing motion that humans use due to their flat molars (teeth that dogs do not have) mechanically help break up long polysaccharide chains. If dogs do not have salivary amylase, then the food must wait until it reaches the intestines to be exposed to pancreatic amylase. The chemical digestion doesn't start until much later in the digestive process, and also has less time to finish due to the shortened intestinal tract. 



tippykayak said:


> #5: Even if you play the "amylase is the only enzyme that matters" game, it's helpful to note that dogs have far more pancreatic amylase than true obligate carnivores (like cats). It's something like triple the amount.


See #1 and 4.



tippykayak said:


> _ Mainly_ protein, yes. I didn't argue for vegan dog food. I'm arguing against the silly overstatement that corn and wheat have "no" or "low" value when the evidence is rather clear that dogs can get lots of nutrition from a reasonable amount of them. In fact, nobody makes all-meat kibbles. Even when they're "grain free," they simply replace it with a different starch.


Where is this clear evidence you keep referring to? Yes, dogs survive eating foods that have wheat and corn. Explain to me the "lots of nutrition" dogs get from them.



tippykayak said:


> The fact is that dogs don't typically thrive on all-meat diets. That's why nobody makes all meat kibbles. Dogs do wonderfully with an appropriate amount of starch. You can tell it's appropriate because the dog is thriving. I've got two on the couch right here. If corn and wheat were just "filler" and passed straight through them, how could they be so healthy?


I beg to differ. My dogs were fed prey-model raw for years and always got an absolute glowing bill of health from the vet. Their bloodwork was always perfect, their coats were soft and shiny, their poop was a perfect consistency, and they never struggled with eye gunk, ear infections, or any kind of skin allergy. Nobody makes all meat kibble because it would be outrageously expensive to produce...

I'm curious to know what food you feed - as I'm sure the majority of your food is not corn and wheat. Unless you are only feeding them corn and wheat, the argument that your dogs are thriving on them is invalid. More than likely, there is a considerable amount of animal protein that contributes to the health of your dogs.



tippykayak said:


> In fact, you said yourself earlier that you feed these foods. Even Ranchlands, the "grain free" food you plug here, has potatoes, pumpkin, apples, and spinach in it. Hardly a food you'd give a carnivore if you really believed what you wrote.
> 
> So do you believe in the argument you just made or the food you feed? 'Cause you can't have both.


I don't recall saying anywhere in my post that I was feeding my dogs ALL meat and no corn or wheat. Also, I'm pretty sure pumpkins, apples, and spinach aren't grains...

Again, I stated that dogs thrive on a diet that consists primarily of protein. I also recall stating that it's the owner's prerogative to feed what they choose. My post was to show that there IS scientific evidence to support that wheat and corn is *less easily* digested by dogs, and therefore has a lower (relative) nutritional value, compared to animal protein.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Is there a full moon? I'm asking for a friend.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Bentleysmom said:


> Is there a full moon? I'm asking for a friend.


I looked outside. It looks full to me. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

> The fact is that dogs don't typically thrive on all-meat diets. That's why nobody makes all meat kibbles. Dogs do wonderfully with an appropriate amount of starch. You can tell it's appropriate because the dog is thriving. I've got two on the couch right here. If corn and wheat were just "filler" and passed straight through them, how could they be so healthy?


Thats bull, I fed 2 large breed dogs, prey model raw, and they lived to 16 (my golden retriever) and 18 (170 lb tibetan mastiff) completely health problem free, clean vet bills every time, only issues were an ear infection, some allergies at an early age, and a couple of join issues from old age. Passed in their sleep. Not only were they completely health issue free but they were 2 BIG dogs, that lived Extremely long, with very few health issues, I have chosen to feed tuco some fruits and veggies for the simple reason, that i dont have the money for the grassfed meats, nor the whole meats like i did with my old dogs. There are 1 or 2 small all meat kibbles, but the main reason there are so few is because they are significantly more expensive, theres no point making a more expensive kibble when you can add some veggies and fruit and keep its nutritional value


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

another point, ive seen quite afew best in show competitors and 2 winners that were fed raw, both of the winners were on prey model


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tuco said:


> another point, ive seen quite afew best in show competitors and 2 winners that were fed raw, both of the winners were on prey model


Who? Were they golden retrievers?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> well first of all, nutrition, they get more benefits from those as an example, second they can digest them fully in their natural form, corn or wheat, the extent they can digest is the extent they are processed, for corn aparently they can digest about 91% of the usual grind in kibble (although depending on the brand it can vary from 82% - 98%). in addition, corn and wheat are the least nutritious of any of the other carbohydrates such as rice, barley, and potato. Naturally a dog (and im not talking wolves here) would not be consuming ANY of these carbohydrates, nor could they digest them, and even ground it takes increased effort to digest them. and although the allergy concern is way over blown it still plays an unnessesary risk. Even though you can make the point that corn does contain some protein, antioxidants, and fatty acids, there are many better, more abundant, more digestable potential sources


Again, you say that corn and wheat are "the least nutritious." What is your measurement? What are the units? What makes you think a potato is "more nutritious" than an ear of corn?

And whether a dog can digest something in its natural form is sort of immaterial, as we're not feeding things in their natural form. A dog can't open a coconut, but people still give them coconut oil. The question is whether the ground potato in a dog food is somehow more biologically appropriate than the ground corn, and you've never produced any evidence or even any units of measurement that would indicate that.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

dwiley said:


> Amylase is certainly not the only enzyme that breaks down carbohydrates, but it is the one that catalyzes the breakdown of polysaccharides into monosaccharides, disaccharides - which can then be broken down into glucose molecules. Monosaccharides are broken down into glucose, galactose, and fructose. Disaccharides are broken down into maltose and lactose. It is only after these polysaccharides are broken down (by amylase) that monosaccharides and disaccharides can be broken down with aid of other digestive enzymes (maltase, sucrase, and lactase). It's been a long time since I took Cell Biology, but this is my understanding. Please, feel free to chime in with the whole story. Sorry if this is too "science-sounding" but there really is no other way to explain it.


First off, I don't mind science sounding stuff. I love science. I don't like it when science sounding language is used but scientific principles are not. 

Amylase does catalyze the breakdown of polysaccharides. In humans, there is a brief window in which it happens _before_ the stomach because we produce it in our saliva, but it doesn't—as far as we understand—continue significantly in the low pH of the stomach. It begins again with pancreatic amylase in the small intestine.

Glucose, galactose, and fructose _are_ monosaccharides, and maltose and lactose _are_ disaccharides. So some of what you're saying doesn't make sense.

You're also missing a big player in the realm of starch digestion: hydrolysis. Amylase facilitates the breakdown of complex starches, but the key component is the water of the digestive system. So the amount of an enzyme isn't a simple measurement of an animal's ability to digest a sugar.




dwiley said:


> Actually, amylase doesn't function at a *low* pH. Acidic = low pH.


Yes, you're totally right. I had written "high acidity" and then revised the word "acidity" without changing the adjective. My typo.



dwiley said:


> Salivary amylase is very important in chemical digestion and begins the breakdown process in the mouth and esophagus. Additionally, the chewing motion that humans use due to their flat molars (teeth that dogs do not have) mechanically help break up long polysaccharide chains. If dogs do not have salivary amylase, then the food must wait until it reaches the intestines to be exposed to pancreatic amylase. The chemical digestion doesn't start until much later in the digestive process, and also has less time to finish due to the shortened intestinal tract.


Humans do prep their starches pre-stomach with grinding and salivary amylase. That proves that humans are more herbivorous than dogs—not in dispute—but does not prove that dogs are carnivores rather than omnivores.

Certainly, dogs are not as good at an herbivorous diet as people. That's not in dispute either. What I'm disputing are claims that dogs are obligate carnivores or that they somehow cannot access nutrition of plant sources. I'm also disputing that a grain is somehow inferior to a potato.



dwiley said:


> Where is this clear evidence you keep referring to? Yes, dogs survive eating foods that have wheat and corn. Explain to me the "lots of nutrition" dogs get from them.


If wheat and corn were "filler" with "no nutritional value" or "low nutritional value," then dogs who ate food consisting mostly of corn or wheat would die. The millions dogs doing fine on such foods disprove those claims. I think dogs do better when the corn and wheat don't provide the vast majority of their calories, and I do think dogs need lots of meat in their diets. I'm just not buying these claims that an appropriate amount of of corn or wheat is just "filler" and it's somehow incompatible with a dog's biology. I also dispute the idea that corn or wheat is somehow less "nutritious" than a potato.

Mammals thrive on a wide range of nutrients. A dog on the right proportion of meat and corn is probably better off than a dog who's on pure meat. In fact, if a dog were fed only muscle meat, he would eventually die from malnutrition.



dwiley said:


> I beg to differ. My dogs were fed prey-model raw for years and always got an absolute glowing bill of health from the vet. Their bloodwork was always perfect, their coats were soft and shiny, their poop was a perfect consistency, and they never struggled with eye gunk, ear infections, or any kind of skin allergy. Nobody makes all meat kibble because it would be outrageously expensive to produce...


My understanding of even prey-model diets is that they are typically supplemented. All the recipes I've ever seen online call for things like flax seed, yams, brewer's yeast, pumpkin, and vitamin supplements. Perhaps you simply fed carcasses, but I don't know of any people whose dogs thrive on just meat, bone, and organs. 

And, fyi, my dogs do not struggle with eye gunk, ear infections, or skin allergies. And coats get shiny when you give dogs fat. Whether it's animal fat or vegetable fat is largely irrelevant. In fact, that's the first thing I'd often suggest for somebody with an itchy dog: more fat.



dwiley said:


> I'm curious to know what food you feed - as I'm sure the majority of your food is not corn and wheat. Unless you are only feeding them corn and wheat, the argument that your dogs are thriving on them is invalid. More than likely, there is a considerable amount of animal protein that contributes to the health of your dogs.


Eukanuba PP 30/20. It's certainly not "mostly" corn and wheat, but it has substantial amounts of corn, rice, and sorghum (ingredients 3, 4, and 5) in it. If they had "no" or "low" nutritional value, it would be hard to see how my dogs could be thriving.



dwiley said:


> I don't recall saying anywhere in my post that I was feeding my dogs ALL meat and no corn or wheat. Also, I'm pretty sure pumpkins, apples, and spinach aren't grains...


But your points have repeatedly been that dogs are carnivores and not omnivores. So it's weird to make that argument and then to turn around and feed your dogs an omnivore's diet. And pumpkins, apples, potatoes, and spinach aren't grains, but you haven't made a single argument about the difference between root vegetables, fruits, leaf vegetables, gourds, and grains. Your points have all been about how dogs can't digest starches properly. So why feed your dogs so much vegetable matter?

I assume it's because the dogs do great on it! An appropriate proportion of vegetable matter isn't just acceptable, it's good! Dogs have been co-evolving with people for at least ten millennia. They've adapted somewhat to our diets in that time period, since the proto-dogs who could would be able to reproduce better. Their needs aren't identical to ours, but neither are they identical to wolves'.

Mammalian evolution has shown, in independent branches, that members of the carnivora order adapt quickly to omnivorous diets—and even once or twice in the tree, they've gone full herbivore like the Giant Panda did.



dwiley said:


> Again, I stated that dogs thrive on a diet that consists primarily of protein. I also recall stating that it's the owner's prerogative to feed what they choose. My post was to show that there IS scientific evidence to support that wheat and corn is *less easily* digested by dogs, and therefore has a lower (relative) nutritional value, compared to animal protein.


The evidence you posted was about starch, not about grains. Most of the nutrition in a potato is locked away as starch, just as it is in corn or wheat. Apples have more simple sugars, but I honestly don't think that's a selling point for their use in dog foods. For energy and health, you want lots of your carbs locked away in polysaccharide chains, because they break down over the course of hours instead of minutes, so you get more sustained energy. Why wouldn't that apply at least somewhat to dogs?

Nobody is arguing against the idea that dogs should be fed mostly meat. The argument here is against statements that certain ingredients have "low" or "no" nutritional value. If a potato or an apple is a good ingredient, so is an ear of corn.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Thats bull, I fed 2 large breed dogs, prey model raw, and they lived to 16 (my golden retriever) and 18 (170 lb tibetan mastiff) completely health problem free, clean vet bills every time, only issues were an ear infection, some allergies at an early age, and a couple of join issues from old age. Passed in their sleep. Not only were they completely health issue free but they were 2 BIG dogs, that lived Extremely long, with very few health issues, I have chosen to feed tuco some fruits and veggies for the simple reason, that i dont have the money for the grassfed meats, nor the whole meats like i did with my old dogs. There are 1 or 2 small all meat kibbles, but the main reason there are so few is because they are significantly more expensive, theres no point making a more expensive kibble when you can add some veggies and fruit and keep its nutritional value


You fed prey model with no supplements for 18 years?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> You fed prey model with no supplements for 18 years?


I fed prey model raw for 2 years with no supplements he was actually really healthy on raw and his blood work came back fine. Now, had I continue im not sure the result but from what I understood is they get their nutrients from the bones, meat and organs they are fed. But I could be wrong. 

Still not sure what I am doing though im leaning more towards Pro plan


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I fed prey model raw for 2 years with no supplements he was actually really healthy on raw and his blood work came back fine. Now, had I continue im not sure the result but from what I understood is they get their nutrients from the bones, meat and organs they are fed. But I could be wrong.
> 
> Still not sure what I am doing though im leaning more towards Pro plan


That's cool. I wasn't aware people were successfully feeding prey model raw with just animal parts and no vegetable matter or vitamins added.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> That's cool. I wasn't aware people were successfully feeding prey model raw with just animal parts and no vegetable matter or vitamins added.


I never added anything anyway, was receiving help from a couple people and research and stuff. I was very picky and made sure everything was being done right and the right proportions. The only reason he was taken off raw was he got a horrible bout of the runs my vet told me it was the diet causing it (which is generally the vets answer when they find out someone is feeding raw) so I got nervous and took him off. As soon as he was taken off the infections started and it just got ugly from there. But I just cant feed raw again, to nervous to especially with his lowered immune system. 

I will admit I have seriously thought about it several times but each time I "chicken out" because I remember what happened with his gut and pooping out bone and stuff. I never added veggies but when I would eat an apple, carrot, orange etc I would give him a little sliver...still do that. He would do a back flip 80 times for a piece of my apple


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Interesting information about corn and other grain based ingredients in dog food. 

The Truth About Corn in Dog Food

I just see some facts here,,,,no AGENDA.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I didn't pay to read the whole study information but I thought this was interesting to put here after reading some of the posts.


http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

solinvictus said:


> I didn't pay to read the whole study information but I thought this was interesting to put here after reading some of the posts.
> The genomic signature of dog domestication reveals adaptation to a starch-rich diet : Nature : Nature Publishing Group


Your link didn't work for me, but this one does.

And that's a very cool demonstration of the evolution of dog digestion. Here's my favorite quote from the abstract:


> Ten genes with key roles in starch digestion and fat metabolism also show signals of selection. We identify candidate mutations in key genes and provide functional support for an increased starch digestion in dogs relative to wolves. Our results indicate that novel adaptations allowing the early ancestors of modern dogs to thrive on a diet rich in starch, relative to the carnivorous diet of wolves, constituted a crucial step in the early domestication of dogs.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> Precise and Nutrisource are not available to me here. I cannot get Grain inclusive Annamaet here anymore and hes already on 2 cups of the Salcha and barely maintaining his weight on that.


That's right, I forget you are in Canada. I recall that Nutram and Horizon Complete weren't avail to you either but that Petsmart sold foods are?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Garfield said:


> That's right, I forget you are in Canada. I recall that Nutram and Horizon Complete weren't avail to you either but that Petsmart sold foods are?


Nutram is here, but its $70 a bag. Horizon I have no seen and some petsmart sold foods are here. For example, I cannot get BilJac in Canada and thats carried at petsmart.


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> Nutram is here, but its $70 a bag. Horizon I have no seen and some petsmart sold foods are here. For example, I cannot get BilJac in Canada and thats carried at petsmart.


 
Can you not order food from somewhere like petfooddirect.com or petflow.com and have it shipped to you? I've never checked to see if they shipped to Canada, but if it's possible..it's an idea for a food you may like better but can't find in your area.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

Megora said:


> I am SO NOT going to make snarky comments about the wonderful Annamaet or the people who push it and KNOW what they are talking about. *teasing*


And here I was thinking this was a doggy forum and not a 'catty' one. *also teasing*  In fairness, this seems to be a case of a certain formula of a food not working for a particular dog. While the individual you refer to has certain brand and tact tendencies (don't we all?), said person has also contributed valuable nutrition info and offered diverse brand suggestions in an honest attempt to meet individual inquirers' situations.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> You fed prey model with no supplements for 18 years?


No for 16 years, he switched after allergy issues, we didn't feed any supplements. I've met and heard of many that have done well without supplements.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> Nutram is here, but its $70 a bag. Horizon I have no seen and some petsmart sold foods are here. For example, I cannot get BilJac in Canada and thats carried at petsmart.


What about Simply Nourish?


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> Again, you say that corn and wheat are "the least nutritious." What is your measurement? What are the units? What makes you think a potato is "more nutritious" than an ear of corn?
> 
> And whether a dog can digest something in its natural form is sort of immaterial, as we're not feeding things in their natural form. A dog can't open a coconut, but people still give them coconut oil. The question is whether the ground potato in a dog food is somehow more biologically appropriate than the ground corn, and you've never produced any evidence or even any units of measurement that would indicate that.


Well first of all its biological value is lower and it's nutrition is lower according to the USDA national nutrient database


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I cant order from a US site without paying $50-$100 in shipping IF they even ship to Canada. Simply Nourish is at pet smart but im at the point where I want him on something hes been on and done well in the past. Nutro or Pro Plan are two foods besides Acana hes done okay on. Acana is $80 a bag so do not want to go back to that


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

Tuco said:


> No for 16 years, he switched after allergy issues, we didn't feed any supplements. I've met and heard of many that have done well without supplements.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've heard accounts of such long term PM feeding, but an 18YO Tibetan?! That's gotta be in a record book somewhere.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Well first of all its biological value is lower and it's nutrition is lower according to the USDA national nutrient database


Source, please? To my understanding, the USDA nutrient database doesn't offer a single number of "nutrition" on foods.

And what do you mean by "biological value?" That just sounds like mumbo jumbo you don't provide actual measurements and nutrients.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> I cant order from a US site without paying $50-$100 in shipping IF they even ship to Canada. Simply Nourish is at pet smart but im at the point where I want him on something hes been on and done well in the past. Nutro or Pro Plan are two foods besides Acana hes done okay on. Acana is $80 a bag so do not want to go back to that


I know you've both been through the mill, but given nothing's fully hit the mark yet and the SN's availability, relative affordability, limited ingredients and feedback on skin/coat & digestive wonders, I'd def give their LID GF Salmon & Sweet Potato a look.

p.s. Are any Canadian dog food sale sites ann option or would shipping still make it too much?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Here's the USDA nutrition report on corn flour.

Here's the USDA nutrition report on potato flour.

I chose potato flour and whole ground corn flour in order to compare dry, ground values in order to get something the most similar to what might go into kibble.

You may notice, first, that the USDA doesn't provide a single number of nutritiousness to compare with. But if you look at both entries, you'll see that potatoes have some more of some things and less of others. Here are some highlights.

Potatoes have five times the simple sugars. Corn has a little more complex starch. Potato has more calcium. Corn has more iron. Potatoes have more potassium. Corn has more magnesium and phosphorus.

The nutrient profiles are _different_. One isn't necessarily superior to the other. It's far, far too simplistic to say that one source of starch is more or less "nutritious" than another.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Garfield said:


> I've heard accounts of such long term PM feeding, but an 18YO Tibetan?! That's gotta be in a record book somewhere.


I know, although I think because they are a much older breed they have fewer general health issues, there's a 20 year old one in china right now


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Garfield said:


> I know you've both been through the mill, but given nothing's fully hit the mark yet and the SN's availability, relative affordability, limited ingredients and feedback on skin/coat & digestive wonders, I'd def give their LID GF Salmon & Sweet Potato a look.
> 
> p.s. Are any Canadian dog food sale sites ann option or would shipping still make it too much?


Rens pets has a limited supply of dog food with free shipping at 60 bucks


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> Here's the USDA nutrition report on corn flour.
> 
> Here's the USDA nutrition report on potato flour.
> 
> ...


Sorry the agriculture library
http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3065


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Biological value is measured in BV I believe, it's the measure of the bodies ability to use absorbed proteins in protein synthesis


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Biological value is measured in BV I believe, it's the measure of the bodies ability to use absorbed proteins in protein synthesis


That is not a general measurement of nutrition. BV is about protein absorption, not about building a balanced diet. BV were the only measurement of how nutritious something was, the healthiest possible human food would be milk and eggs and nothing else.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Sorry the agriculture library
> Show Foods


That's what I linked, and, if you look at what I linked, potato does not have a clear edge over corn in any particular category. In fact, it corn beats potato on more vitamin measurements and has 1/5 the simple sugars.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> I know, although I think because they are a much older breed they have fewer general health issues, there's a 20 year old one in china right now


You should submit his papers and medical records to Guinness. 18 years in a dog that size probably breaks several world records.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> You should submit his papers and medical records to Guinness. 18 years in a dog that size probably breaks several world records.


Ok, how do you submit records to them?


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> That is not a general measurement of nutrition. BV is about protein absorption, not about building a balanced diet. BV were the only measurement of how nutritious something was, the healthiest possible human food would be milk and eggs and nothing else.


My point previous was keeping biological value and nutrition separate


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tuco said:


> Ok, how do you submit records to them?


How To - Guinness World Records


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## dexter0125 (Mar 20, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> I cant order from a US site without paying $50-$100 in shipping IF they even ship to Canada. Simply Nourish is at pet smart but im at the point where I want him on something hes been on and done well in the past. Nutro or Pro Plan are two foods besides Acana hes done okay on. Acana is $80 a bag so do not want to go back to that


Petfooddirect.com DOES ship to Canada. Maybe you should try to get in touch with them (if you haven't already) and see their shipping cost. They often have coupons for free or discounted shipping.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

I'm searching record height for a Tibetan and it seems the record holder was 36" tall, mine was around 33"


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

What is the record for age? 


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Tuco said:


> Rens pets has a limited supply of dog food with free shipping at 60 bucks
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Free shipping does NOT apply to dog food at Ren's.

Special Dog & Cat Food Shipping Rates

Food purchases are considered bulk items but we do offer special flat rates for shipping dog & cat food on a per bag basis, which are detailed below. These rates are only valid in non-remote areas.

Weight
< 10lbs 
11lbs - 20lbs 24lbs+
Shipping Cost per bag $7 $12 $15


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Garfield said:


> I know you've both been through the mill, but given nothing's fully hit the mark yet and the SN's availability, relative affordability, limited ingredients and feedback on skin/coat & digestive wonders, I'd def give their LID GF Salmon & Sweet Potato a look.
> 
> p.s. Are any Canadian dog food sale sites ann option or would shipping still make it too much?


There is one site, but they want $15 to ship. So the prices are the same...but add on the $15 shipping I miswell just go to the store and get it. They do offer a few foods I cannot find elsewhere though


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

dexter0125 said:


> Petfooddirect.com DOES ship to Canada. Maybe you should try to get in touch with them (if you haven't already) and see their shipping cost. They often have coupons for free or discounted shipping.


I have already called them. As of January 1st they stopped shipping to Canada


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## desi.n.nutro (Mar 18, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> I either need to be open to feed as food with Corn and Wheat or I need to find something else to feed him. I should just feed him Pedigree or something....


I am sorry you have this frustration. Nutro Natural Choice has no corn or corn gluten, wheat and has no soy. I have given mine the Large Breed Chicken their whole life from Puppy to Senior. The biggest benefit as far as I am concerned is in getting a super premium, all-natural food, at the best price point in the category. Let's face it, the highest cost in pet food bags comes from protein. Natural Choice uses real farm raised chicken or lamb as the first ingredient and has a price point of around $50. I know you are just stomping your foot a little but there is no need to feed corn and/or wheat in this era of ingredient awareness and enlightenment.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

desi.n.nutro said:


> I am sorry you have this frustration. Nutro Natural Choice has no corn or corn gluten, wheat and has *no soy*. I have given mine the Large Breed Chicken their whole life from Puppy to Senior. The biggest benefit as far as I am concerned is in getting a super premium, all-natural food, at the best price point in the category. Let's face it, the highest cost in pet food bags comes from protein. Natural Choice uses real farm raised chicken or lamb as the first ingredient and has a price point of around $50. I know you are just stomping your foot a little but there is no need to feed corn and/or wheat in this era of ingredient awareness and enlightenment.


Theres soybean oil in it...thats soy...

As for price, last I checked it was about $62 a bag but I could be wrong I would have to double check on the price


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

Brave said:


> What is the record for age?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


In a Tibetan apparently 23, in a dog in general 29


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## desi.n.nutro (Mar 18, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> Theres soybean oil in it...thats soy...
> 
> As for price, last I checked it was about $62 a bag but I could be wrong I would have to double check on the price


You are right, I misspoke (mistyped). No soy protein in this formula. I am not sure how the Canadian prices compare to US but we have one of the best price points almost everywhere I have been. I buy it at a local feed store and they have a better price than the 2 larger chains I work at.


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## dwiley (Aug 19, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> That's cool. I wasn't aware people were successfully feeding prey model raw with just animal parts and no vegetable matter or vitamins added.


I also fed prey-model raw with absolutely no supplements. Just meat, bone, and organs.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

dwiley said:


> I also fed prey-model raw with absolutely no supplements. Just meat, bone, and organs.


Again, good to know. All the prey model diets I see online have supplements. Did you stop because it was too expensive?


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

well, i dont simply because i dont have the availability of grassfed meats nor the large variety of different types of meats and organs that i used to have, so i feel safer having another source of nutrition, tuco is still about 90-95% meat


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Including mine 




Tahnee GR said:


> ! I know a lot of gorgeous, healthy show dogs who eat Pro Plan.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> well, i dont simply because i dont have the availability of grassfed meats nor the large variety of different types of meats and organs that i used to have, so i feel safer having another source of nutrition, tuco is still about 90-95% meat


I had a wonderful supplier in Stoney Creek. Not sure if they were grass fed though.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> I had a wonderful supplier in Stoney Creek. Not sure if they were grass fed though.


well also now i dont have much of a freezer so i end up having to buy from the butcher, or the occasional hunter with some fresh meat


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

desi.n.nutro said:


> I am sorry you have this frustration. Nutro Natural Choice has no corn or corn gluten, wheat and has no soy. I have given mine the Large Breed Chicken their whole life from Puppy to Senior. The biggest benefit as far as I am concerned is in getting a super premium, all-natural food, at the best price point in the category. Let's face it, the highest cost in pet food bags comes from protein. Natural Choice uses real farm raised chicken or lamb as the first ingredient and has a price point of around $50. I know you are just stomping your foot a little but there is no need to feed corn and/or wheat in this era of ingredient awareness and enlightenment.


Yet there is either potato protein or pea protein in every Nutro formula. Can you clarify what precentage of the total protein in the average Nutro formula is from plant verses animal protein?


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## dwiley (Aug 19, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Again, good to know. All the prey model diets I see online have supplements. Did you stop because it was too expensive?


The only reason I don't is because I didn't have time to do it anymore. It takes a lot of time to ensure the ratios are correct and while I was able to pre-portion the meals and just throw them in the fridge to thaw, it still took up a lot of time finding the right meat in bulk. Now that I'm not in college and I work full time, my priorities have changed. I did buy a deep freezer back then simply for dog food so we will eventually get back to that.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I decided on Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach for those who were wondering. Went out and grabbed a 20lb bag of it tonight


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## hubbub (Jun 28, 2011)

I hope Lincoln does well on it and his tummy settles down.  :crossfing


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> I decided on Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach for those who were wondering. Went out and grabbed a 20lb bag of it tonight


Hope it works well for him.


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## janababy (Jan 2, 2012)

I use TLC. dog food. I find it is wonderful for their coat and their teeth. They even deliver it to the house for free.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> I decided on Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach for those who were wondering. Went out and grabbed a 20lb bag of it tonight


Hope he does well on it too, my guys are doing great on it. I would never have even considered trying it if it hadn't been for the recommendation of several members here on the GRF. I am so glad I made the switch.

Thank you members who recommended it!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

janababy said:


> I use TLC. dog food. I find it is wonderful for their coat and their teeth. They even deliver it to the house for free.


Thanks, but I think I will stick with Pro Plan with him. I will be trying that kibble out for the cats though since they deliver


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Expect that there may be some loose stools during your transition back on to the PP SSS. One really easy fix to ease this is psyllium fibre. You can get it at the health food store. It just provides fibre which helps with motility and settling down an upset digestive tract. It is a drug free solution, and one that I have found works even with little puppies.

I used PP SSS with some of my dogs until the ProCLub changed their bag size and rewards program for breeders and essentially negated the savings I was getting. Those dogs are now on Fromm (I use either the Surf and Turf, or Game Bird) that I get from Ren's which has an excellent reward program. (It matters when you are feeding 7 dogs!!!) My others are on Royal Canin formulas and doing terrific. There is a Rens in Oakville up Trafalgar Rd.

That is the key here--find something that works for your dogs and stick with it. My vet is a raw feeder and a proponent of raw feeding, but she does concur with this. I just cannot do it because of travelling to the US so often for competitions, or camping at them without refrigeration facilities in the summer!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

sterregold said:


> Expect that there may be some loose stools during your transition back on to the PP SSS. One really easy fix to ease this is psyllium fibre. You can get it at the health food store. It just provides fibre which helps with motility and settling down an upset digestive tract. It is a drug free solution, and one that I have found works even with little puppies.
> 
> I used PP SSS with some of my dogs until the ProCLub changed their bag size and rewards program for breeders and essentially negated the savings I was getting. Those dogs are now on Fromm (I use either the Surf and Turf, or Game Bird) that I get from Ren's which has an excellent reward program. (It matters when you are feeding 7 dogs!!!) My others are on Royal Canin formulas and doing terrific. There is a Rens in Oakville up Trafalgar Rd.
> 
> That is the key here--find something that works for your dogs and stick with it. My vet is a raw feeder and a proponent of raw feeding, but she does concur with this. I just cannot do it because of travelling to the US so often for competitions, or camping at them without refrigeration facilities in the summer!


Yeah, when I put him on the PP SSS formula months ago I didnt wean him because at this point he already had liquid poops. Literally over night the day after feeding PP SSS his poops firmed. So, I didnt wean him this time either because his poops are already wonky. I am hoping for the same result we shall see tomorrow how his poops are


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## desi.n.nutro (Mar 18, 2011)

Garfield said:


> Yet there is either potato protein or pea protein in every Nutro formula. Can you clarify what precentage of the total protein in the average Nutro formula is from plant verses animal protein?


I cannot but I bet the consumer line could if it isn't considered proprietary info. Nutro uses 5 lbs of chicken to get 1 lb of chicken meal because they are removing all of the water and most of the fat. The formula I use has chicken as the first ingredient and chicken meal as the second. Typically, 90% of what is in a bag of food is listed in the first 5 ingredients. Quoting Nutro.com, "The Nutro Company uses a combination of animal and plant proteins to balance the amino acid levels in our dog food. We use highly digestible, quality proteins from sources such as U.S. farm-raised chicken, New Zealand and Australian pasture-fed lamb, seasonally caught fish and high-quality pea protein" This is the best answer I can give and I hope I gave some clarity.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

desi.n.nutro said:


> I cannot but I bet the consumer line could if it isn't considered proprietary info. Nutro uses 5 lbs of chicken to get 1 lb of chicken meal because they are removing all of the water and most of the fat. The formula I use has chicken as the first ingredient and chicken meal as the second. Typically, 90% of what is in a bag of food is listed in the first 5 ingredients. Quoting Nutro.com, "The Nutro Company uses a combination of animal and plant proteins to balance the amino acid levels in our dog food. We use highly digestible, quality proteins from sources such as U.S. farm-raised chicken, New Zealand and Australian pasture-fed lamb, seasonally caught fish and high-quality pea protein" This is the best answer I can give and I hope I gave some clarity.



Question....how many pound of actual meat after water has been removed are in a small bag of Nutro? I assume they are 5-6lb bags...?


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Including mine


and mine. There was a discussion at drop in training a couple weeks ago about what dog food to feed. I listened to several people debate about raw versus high end kibble versus home cooked, and the fact that every few months they all changed foods in search of the perfect dog food. I then looked at their dogs and compared them to how my dogs looked. Mine, who have been fed Purina Pro Plan for a few years now, looked just as good or better then the dogs who's owners kept switching foods. My dogs weights are good, their coats are shiny, their activity levels are fabulous and according to my vet could be the poster dogs for fit and healthy dogs. I am sticking with Pro Plan.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

You know my feelings about Proplan/Purina. But ultimately, you have to feed what works best for you and Link


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

solinvictus said:


> I didn't pay to read the whole study information but I thought this was interesting to put here after reading some of the posts.
> 
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11837.html


Thanks for the link. For folks looking for more on animal nutritionist, Petdiets.com is an informative resource. Authored by a certified vet nutrition, it features articles and questions & answers on an array of topics, including those being debated in this forum.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

desi.n.nutro said:


> I cannot but I bet the consumer line could if it isn't considered proprietary info. Nutro uses 5 lbs of chicken to get 1 lb of chicken meal because they are removing all of the water and most of the fat. The formula I use has chicken as the first ingredient and chicken meal as the second. Typically, 90% of what is in a bag of food is listed in the first 5 ingredients. Quoting Nutro.com, "The Nutro Company uses a combination of animal and plant proteins to balance the amino acid levels in our dog food. We use highly digestible, quality proteins from sources such as U.S. farm-raised chicken, New Zealand and Australian pasture-fed lamb, seasonally caught fish and high-quality pea protein" This is the best answer I can give and I hope I gave some clarity.


Thank you for the response. Given Nutro relies on concentrated plant protein to achieve (comparatively) low total protein levels in some formulas, it seems their pricing should be lower.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> Yeah, when I put him on the PP SSS formula months ago I didnt wean him because at this point he already had liquid poops. Literally over night the day after feeding PP SSS his poops firmed. So, I didnt wean him this time either because his poops are already wonky. I am hoping for the same result we shall see tomorrow how his poops are


An update on Linc would be appreciated when you can.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Garfield said:


> An update on Linc would be appreciated when you can.


His poos are better but now hes back on antibiotics for another big skin infection for 4 weeks so he will have mushy poops now


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> His poos are better but now hes back on antibiotics for another big skin infection for 4 weeks so he will have mushy poops now


**** he just can't get a break


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tuco said:


> **** he just can't get a break
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No he cant. Hes been getting constant infections 1 week after meds are stopped since October 2011. Before it was just an occasional infection


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

I haven't read this entire thread. Has Lincoln had allergy testing? We decided along with the vet at the University of Illinois to skip allergy testing and try Atopica. My 10 yr old had one skin infection after another for years. We started her on Atopica about a year and a half ago. She has been infection free ever since. Her skin on her belly is covered with hair, smooth, and pink. Before atopica it was either blackish colored skin or red/inflamed and weaping sores. She also had similar problems on her paws and around her mouth. It was terrible. 

Atopica has been a miracle cure. However, I am currently weaning her off as I am weaning her onto Orijen. I have also been giving some very high quality probiotics, fish oil, and green tripe. She gets one more chance to be off the Atopica. If she has another relapse, I'll put her back on Atopica until she passes. Her quality of life has been better without all the infections.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

stealle said:


> I haven't read this entire thread. Has Lincoln had allergy testing? We decided along with the vet at the University of Illinois to skip allergy testing and try Atopica. My 10 yr old had one skin infection after another for years. We started her on Atopica about a year and a half ago. She has been infection free ever since. Her skin on her belly is covered with hair, smooth, and pink. Before atopica it was either blackish colored skin or red/inflamed and weaping sores. She also had similar problems on her paws and around her mouth. It was terrible.
> 
> Atopica has been a miracle cure. However, I am currently weaning her off as I am weaning her onto Orijen. I have also been giving some very high quality probiotics, fish oil, and green tripe. She gets one more chance to be off the Atopica. If she has another relapse, I'll put her back on Atopica until she passes. Her quality of life has been better without all the infections.


I really cant afford Atopica or allergy testing/shots. Hes on cyclosporine for his eye problems and thats expensive as it is


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

We did not do allergy testing or shots. The vet at U of I told us that chances are allergy shots would not be effective for our dog. She said there would be a better chance that atopica would work. I figured, why not try it out for several months and see what happens. It worked.

Atopica does not have to be giving daily. And, it can be administered with a cheaper drug, ketoconizole, which allows you to save money by giving a smaller dose of Atopica because ketoconizole slows the metabolism of Atopica (keeps Atopica in the dogs body longer). We give atopica/ketoconizole every other day. A one month supply of Atopica and ketoconizole for our 65lb golden costs about $70. I don't like the expense, but the cost of vet bills, anti-biotics, pain and suffering... it seems worth it to me.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

stealle said:


> We did not do allergy testing or shots. The vet at U of I told us that chances are allergy shots would not be effective for our dog. She said there would be a better chance that atopica would work. I figured, why not try it out for several months and see what happens. It worked.
> 
> Atopica does not have to be giving daily. And, it can be administered with a cheaper drug, ketoconizole, which allows you to save money by giving a smaller dose of Atopica because ketoconizole slows the metabolism of Atopica (keeps Atopica in the dogs body longer). We give atopica/ketoconizole every other day. A one month supply of Atopica and ketoconizole for our 65lb golden costs about $70. I don't like the expense, but the cost of vet bills, anti-biotics, pain and suffering... it seems worth it to me.


Ketoconazole here is $50 for two weeks worth. Everything here is marked up in Canada. I just do not have $70 a month to work with right now between the food, meds etc hes already on. I only make $1000 a month

But, I will check into the cost of atopica again and see what I can come up with. Human pharmacy wanted $150 for two weeks of oral cyclosporine...


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

stealle said:


> We did not do allergy testing or shots. The vet at U of I told us that chances are allergy shots would not be effective for our dog. She said there would be a better chance that atopica would work. I figured, why not try it out for several months and see what happens. It worked.
> 
> Atopica does not have to be giving daily. And, it can be administered with a cheaper drug, ketoconizole, which allows you to save money by giving a smaller dose of Atopica because ketoconizole slows the metabolism of Atopica (keeps Atopica in the dogs body longer). We give atopica/ketoconizole every other day. A one month supply of Atopica and ketoconizole for our 65lb golden costs about $70. I don't like the expense, but the cost of vet bills, anti-biotics, pain and suffering... it seems worth it to me.


I had my spaniel, Tess, on Atopica for 6-8 months. She'd had a severe flea allergy and resulting infections. It helped a great deal and I weaned her off it after her skin cleared up and we had made sure there fleas didn't get near her. It IS expensive, but might in fact be cheaper than the vet bills, etc. if Linc is in the doc's office quite a bit.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

OutWest said:


> I had my spaniel, Tess, on Atopica for 6-8 months. She'd had a severe flea allergy and resulting infections. It helped a great deal and I weaned her off it after her skin cleared up and we had made sure there fleas didn't get near her. It IS expensive, but might in fact be cheaper than the vet bills, etc. if Linc is in the doc's office quite a bit.


It still is the initial cost $150 before 13% taxes here is really expensive. Thats for the generic for a 30 day supply of just 100mg. He would need 150mg once a day. If I could put him on it 1 pill every other day or every second day it *might* be doable. But I cannot afford the initial loading dose. 

I feel like a horrible owner as it is.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

A1Malinois said:


> It still is the initial cost $150 before 13% taxes here is really expensive. Thats for the generic for a 30 day supply of just 100mg. He would need 150mg once a day. If I could put him on it 1 pill every other day or every second day it *might* be doable. But I cannot afford the initial loading dose.
> 
> I feel like a horrible owner as it is.


In my experience when I was broke and couldn't afford certain vet meds I found homeopathy and they had a lot of alternative that were cheaper and work as well if not better, with no bad side effects, you may want to look into


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## desi.n.nutro (Mar 18, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> Question....how many pound of actual meat after water has been removed are in a small bag of Nutro? I assume they are 5-6lb bags...?


I am unsure about the specifics. I called the consumer line and was told exact numbers are considered proprietary. I do know that Nutro uses 5lbs of chicken to get 1lb of meal vs when chicken meal is a slurry and so 1lb of chicken to get 5lbs of meal is common. I.e., chicken and chicken meal are the first ingredients in the Natural Choice Large Breed Chicken that I use.


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