# C'mon, Help me...Nothing is working!



## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

He has plenty of toys, he has tasted the bitter apple ... he has even had a smack on the butt and a firm no....The longer walks ... the love and attention..
AND THE CHEWING NEVER STOPS!!

The chairs, the tables, the tablecloth outside, the cats, the stocking caps, the plants... it never ends!

Im frustrated, as we are approaching getting our new puppy Kerosene (which Shelly, the owner, says does not chew) ... I DO NOT want her to learn this trait, but sadly will probably pick it up quick if she hangs around Diesel long enough! 

PLEASE HELP QUICKLY!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I have to assume that he is doing this when you are not attending him, so I have to ask - is he crated? Because, he should be any time that you cannot provide your undivided attention.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Are you using the bitter apple on everything? Are you spraying him in the mouth 1st and then show him what you are spraying it on and telling him NO BITES, NO CHEWING??? If so, continue to do this, he will eventually understand! Be patient and know that it will all work out, he is a pup and a golden and that is all they want to do is chew! Also try some washcloths, wet them, roll them up and freeze them, then give them to him, it helps with the teething....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Agreed.....


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## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

Usually he is being watched...Like if Im doing the dishes and hes in the kitchen with me, blocked on both doorways with baby gates... he goes STRAIGHT for chairs or cabinet. I can stop him pretty quick, but with 8 teethmarks in the wood. He seems to just LOVE the bitter apple spray! He'll grab stocking caps and socks out of your hands, and honestly I HAVE NO CONTROL! Keith does, because Keiths voice scares him! When he's outside on his lead to go potty, thats when he got the table cloth... I guess I just didnt think of that one! PG please write your book already...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Then leash him to you... and get some control and respect


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

When you say you have NO CONTROL are you projecting a womens voice of authority? Muster up a STRONG mean business voice and let him know YOU are the BOSS!!! Dig deep inside of your voices and find the one that he respects and then use that voice! Make it Deep and meaningful on him.


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## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

He just loves to not obey me ... but we Keith he just bows down ... ITS FRUSTRATING! Theres been night its made me cry. I love him to pieces, but it is frustrating!


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Jamie, I remember how frustred I got when my hubbys Mastiff ATE the corners of my Nice $700 dining room table, but, 1 thing I have learned with dogs is this, You MUST show them what you do NOT approve of, rather it be a chair leg or peeing in the house, you must teach them the wrongs from rights as with a child, but you must do this with your Authoritive Voice... This is the ONLY way they will respect you! Try some of the advise given to see if he starts to respect you, if he does then stick with whatever you did. Another thing to NOT do is SCREAM at him, use a CALM ASSERTIVE voice...


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Back in September I was at this stage, Brady was about 10 months, and I knew the best thing would be to go back to school - and we did for September thru Christmas, and we will probably start up again in the near future.

He still occasionally chews things, but it is usually the kids' toys or plastic cups, things that should not have been in his reach to begin with. Now most of the time, I just switch with one of his toys and he is perfectly content. It might just be the age.

Now Brady still chews on my children, but only when I am home, if I am not home, and my husband or mother-in-law are around, he is very calm - so it is definitely his way of getting my attention. 

We are also now able to give him free run of the house at night and for short bursts when we are not home, and he has been perfect.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The answer is simple. Stop setting him up to fail. If you leave him access to the wrong things to chew, he will learn to chew the wrong things. If you manage his world by only giving him access to the right things to chew (by leashing him to you, crating, using x-pens, etc.) he will practice doing the right thing; you can reward him for it; and eventually, the desire to chew the wrong stuff will go away. This can all be done w/o having to adopt a big, mean voice. Do you want your dog to learn what you want b/c you have a mutually respectful relationship or do you want him to learn using intimidation, fear and coercion?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Remember that it's the dog that gets to choose what is rewarding, not us. So far, he's decided that chewing table legs is very rewarding. Manage the behavior while you teach an alternate behavior (an obsession with Nylabones, perhaps) that is incompatible with table chewing.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

Bitter apple has never worked for us, with our last BC (and even the llamas!) we mix a pack of powdered alum (spelling?) with water in a spray bottle, it works great!

~find it at the grocery, canning isle (used for making dill pickles)


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

All trainers have a difference of opinion...use what works for you and stick with it! Good luck!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Crate your dog when you can't watch him. He'll live. Just make sure you schedule ample time for him where you can give all your attention. Life does revolve around the puppy doesn't it.

I'm with kerry on acting like a leader which comes across with an assertive voice and action. Men do that better then women as a rule. 

communicate what you want clearly. I'd chide lucky on chewing the 'off limits things" and give him a chew stick and say good boy, hugs and kisses when he chewed THAT. Your puppy is learning house rules...this is the opportuity to teach him. Its frustrating but what a well-behaved and trustworthy dog you will have.

Lucky couldn't leave our rug alone. It was an obsession. I'd say "no" and I sprayed his tongue each time he started chewing. No dog could like that and he quit though not before I got a nice long hole.


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## Sunny Delight (Mar 10, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> Now Brady still chews on my children, but only when I am home


 I have to laugh at that!! It looks even funnier edited the way I cut it! Mister loves to "mouth" the kids and grab their arm and walk them around the house. Unfortunately, they think it is the cutest thing! No calm assertive voice coming from them!

I agree with PG and Kerri that you HAVE to let him know you are the boss. Ever heard of a show on Animal Planet (I think) called "It's me or the Dog?" The trainer is a big believer in teaching dogs what they can't get away with. Dogs can learn their person by person limits very quickly, and Diesel's apparent joy in not listening to you means he knows he can get away with crap from you.

Also, I have to ask the usual question that comes to mind when dogs chew and that is how much exercise does he get? Also mental stimulation. And there's no toy that he'd prefer over the kitchen chairs? Stuffed, frozen Kong? Marrow bone? 

I've heard a book recommended here called "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell that is supposed to be good. I haven't read it myself, but I read a little book/pamphlet of hers that had great advice. Ever heard of NILIF? Make him work for everything, including his food. He also should learn to sit before going through a door, and learn to "watch you". The more he learns to watch you and learns that good things come from you, the more he'll listen to you. 

You could hand feed him (mix a little yogurt in the food to make it clumpy. It's gross, but you just wash up afterwards) Make him sit and wait and watch you for each bite. You could also do a down and/or stay and other "tricks" he knows. You even want to move the handful of food to the side, and praise him for watching you and not the food. They catch on amazingly quickly!!

Good luck!!

Dealing with puppy troubles, dieting, and quitting smoking all at the same time - you are VERY ambitious!!!


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## Sunny Delight (Mar 10, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> This can all be done w/o having to adopt a big, mean voice. Do you want your dog to learn what you want b/c you have a mutually respectful relationship or do you want him to learn using intimidation, fear and coercion?


I don't think the poster who mentioned this meant for the voice to be mean, just firm and not baby-talkish. I'm not saying Jami is using babytalk, but women tend to get a bit high pitched sometimes when talking to dogs, and I think this may lead to dogs taking them less seriously then men. Yelling or screaming is not good for men OR women to do. 

I have a friend with such a high squeaky voice who can't get her dog to obey a lot. The dog listens to me more. I don't yell, I just turn away when she jumps on me, or say a firm "Off!" instead of "C'mon, get off me" in a non-serious way. She also realizes she doesn't get the affection for bad behavior.


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## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

Well last night, I put on my layers and took him for a run instead of a walk. This is also helping me get to my weight loss goal ... so its good for both of us. When we got home I also leashed him to me with a "No Pull" harness and did my daily chores. This went on from 6:00 PM to about 10:00 PM. He STILL picked up anything he could get his mouth on. Anything that was on the floor particularly. Now, sure, its easy to say "keep the stuff off the floor" but with a 3-year old little boy, thats easier said than done. I took all of the stuff he picked up in his mouth out and replaced it with his toy duck ... treats ... etc. This didnt seem to work either. I just a firm manly "No" voice ... and I just sounded funny, and am not even sure he heard me. But when Keith came in the room, he was an angel. He is sooo well mannered when he is around. Maybe its a size thing? Heck I dont know. We are going to keep this routine every night, and maybe in a week, he will get it. I guess we will just have to see!


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

Ahhhh... you have a toddler and toddler toys. I'd love to hear how others handle this. I don't have kids, but I have a 2 year old niece and 3 year old nephew that I spend a lot of time with. Bringing Rookie to their house is tough. I spend a LOT of time taking things out of his mouth because there are just too many tempting toys on the floor at his level. The kids' toys look too much like his toys for him to be able to distinguish. To be honest with you, I find it kind of exhausting.

He listens well and he's a pretty well trained dog for almost 10 months and he's gotten really good at home. He knows what he can chew and what he can't. I still have to be very vigilant because if he's bored and I'm not in the living room with him, he will try to chew on things. But the sheer number of things to chew on in a house with toddlers would be very difficult to deal with. I'm sure others will have good suggestions... I'll be checking in to hear their suggestions as well!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sunny Delight said:


> I don't think the poster who mentioned this meant for the voice to be mean, just firm and not baby-talkish. I'm not saying Jami is using babytalk, but women tend to get a bit high pitched sometimes when talking to dogs, and I think this may lead to dogs taking them less seriously then men. Yelling or screaming is not good for men OR women to do.
> 
> I have a friend with such a high squeaky voice who can't get her dog to obey a lot. The dog listens to me more. I don't yell, I just turn away when she jumps on me, or say a firm "Off!" instead of "C'mon, get off me" in a non-serious way. She also realizes she doesn't get the affection for bad behavior.


Call it "firm" or "the voice of a leader" or whatever you want... if it's the TONE of the voice that's STOPPING a behavior, then the tone of the voice is acting as a punishment. (Scientifically speaking.) She said the dog responds better to the boyfriend. Men usually have a deeper voice than women, and they also have a huge presidposition (as a general rule) to want to be "the enforcer". I'm just saying I suspect the boyfriend is managing the dog using intimidation (his big, "man voice")... that is, that the dog finds the "seriousness" of his voice to be an aversive, so the dog changes its behavior.

All I'm saying is that it's not always necessary to rely on a "serious voice" to train a dog... 

Granted, you don't want a Mickey Mouse voice either... but I want my dog to learn specific behavior, not just to respond by stiffling a behavior when I use a serious voice.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Like I said, different trainers use different methods! 
OP should find what works for her & use that method!
Again, Good Luck!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Negative reinforcement is not needed when training a dog. I can't imagine spraying bitter apple into my dogs' mouths and I can't imagine trying to sound gruff to get a response from my dogs. Reinforce the good behavior! Instead of scolding all the time when they are doing bad things, tell them how good they are being and give them a goodie when they are being good. 

Dogs are like kids, they want attention. If negative is all you are giving them, then they will act out to keep getting the attention, negative or not. You can bully a lot of them into behaving, but they are not happy. Or you can praise them and give them good things for being good so that they continue to strive to be good.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

fostermom said:


> Negative reinforcement is not needed when training a dog. I can't imagine spraying bitter apple into my dogs' mouths and I can't imagine trying to sound gruff to get a response from my dogs. Reinforce the good behavior! Instead of scolding all the time when they are doing bad things, tell them how good they are being and give them a goodie when they are being good.


I'm with you FM. I'm not going to say I'm a good enough trainer to never incoporate *any* aversives into my training... BUT, what I try really, really hard to do, it make sure that I've properly taken the time to teach my animal what I expect of him. So often, I find people eager to turn to aversives (or decide to up the level of aversive) before they have truly taken the time to teach (and heavily reinforce) what they want the dog to do. We tend to assume that dogs will learn things (for example, not chewing table legs, or jumping on people) on OUR TIME TABLE, when really, it's THEIR LEARNING TIME TABLE that we should be concerned with. We go to a class and think the dog should be "cured" of the bad behaviors because he's been to class. Dogs don't read minds. Left to their own devices, w/o proper instruction from us, they will engage in behaviors that THEY FIND to be reinforcing.

Fact of the matter is, when you're with a dog, ONE OF YOU IS BEING TRAINED. Either you are training the dog, or the dog is training you! The only time that stops is when one of you reaches room temperature! (I can't take credit for that last part... that's a Steve White quote... but boy do I love it!)

I just don't honestly get why so many people are resistant to setting their animals up to succeed... *sigh*


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

... sorry, guess I'm still feeling a little ranty...

Take potty training a child... Why are we so much more willing to accept that THAT will take time (and we willingly invest all the effort needed on our part) but we have such a harder time accepting that it will take time for the canine "child" to master the skills that we are trying to teach?

The majority of commonplace dog training methods in effect in today's society are still deeply rooted in coercion-based methods of the past. We train dogs a certain way because we're full of ego and, well, WE CAN. 

And all the talk about "make sure the dog knows you're the boss". *SIGH* That advice is given for EVERY BEHAVIOR PROBLEM UNDER THE SUN. Do we really think the dog is chewing the table leg b/c he thinks he's the boss? OF COURSE NOT. He's chewing the leg b/c he's a DOG. DOGS CHEW! And the dog chewing the table leg has been A. allowed to self-reinforce for chewing the leg (poor management) and B. has not experienced a powerful enough reward history (meaning, we haven't made it worth his while) for chewing an approved item. 

I'm sorry... I know I really am on a soap box rant here... forgive me. 

AND, nevermind that the whole "alpha wolf/dominance" theory has been debunked. Wolves in the wild don't form dominance hierarchies. They form breeding pairs, which equate more to that of a family. CAPTIVE wolves form heirarchies. Wild dogs, research now shows, were solitary scavengers and as such, living in packs would lessen the chance of each individual dog successfully collecting what it needed to survive.

Yes, I think dogs need leadership, but that has nothing to do with showing the dog you're the boss. If you want to call it the boss, fine, but it really needs to be little more than the human controlling the resources so that we can manage the dog and reinforce what WE want and prevent the dog from self-reinforcing for unwanted behaviors.

I just wish that we, as humans, would collectively become far more willing to actually TEACH THE DOG what we want... even when doing so fails to be convenient or quick and easy.

Dog training is simple, but it's not easy.

We owe it to our dogs to make it easeir for them to succeed in the world in which we have placed them.

Okay. Descending the soap box now.

-S


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Oh, and just to clarify, *none* of my comments were directed specifically toward anyone.


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## Sunny Delight (Mar 10, 2007)

That's a pretty tall soapbox you got there, Quiz!!

I've tried to take little snippets of advice from all the trainers I've come in contact with, either on-line, in real life, or on TV. I happened to use the word "boss" and you said that one of you is being trained, either the dog or the person. By "boss" I just mean the person is the one who should be doing the training. Perhaps leader_* is*_ a better word. So even if a man does not raise his voice, it seems like he is in a lose/lose situation because of his deep voice/size. Is this particular dog only listening to the man because of his size and deep voice? Perhaps he has been able to show the dog what he wants it to do. Mister knows I let him on the sofa. He also knows my hubby doesn't let him on the sofa (well, the supposed non-dog sofa). Hubby has never raised his voice and hasn't even used a firm voice. He just says, "Off" an points to the ground. Then he usually praises him with a pat or two. Is this wrong somehow, in your opinion, or am I reading your posts wrong? I use plenty of positive reinforcement with training my dogs, and of course I have no where near the kind of trained dogs that you have. I totally believe in rewarding the good behavior and having the absence of a reward be the "consequence". 

I'm also not saying a firm voice will get this particular pup to stop chewing on stuff. I just think he will listen better and chew on the right stuff eventually when his "leaders" tell him not to. And they can both become leaders through positive reinforecement. I clicker trained my pup when I first got her and she learned wonderfully. People coudn't believe this little 8 week old pup could sit and come on command. They all thought I was so lucky, but I knew I'd put hard work into it. Now sometimes when I ask for a behavior, she sometimes throws a bunch at me, trying to figure out which is the one that will get her the treat!


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I am not saying that positive re-enforcement is bad, heck that is what I taught @ PetSmart for 2 yrs and still teach to this day! 

Yes maybe using the word BOSS was the wrong word to use, LEADER sounds a bit better! Thank you Sunny D. 

What I was trying to say was, OP said she felt defeated cause the dog will not listen to her, so I asked which type of voice she was using, I did NOT say to YELL at the dog I mearly said to use a Calm & Assertive voice but asked if she was using a womans tone or a deeper tone! I have found that when My dogs don't listen to me in my womans voice I use a deeper voice and they pay attention...

Flying Quiz, you & I have had our differences of opinions on some of our training techniques on this forum and I do not want to get into a debate with you on who is right and wrong. 

I was simply letting her know what works for me and to give it a try if it doesn't work then try something else! 

I hope this will end this debated discussion and gets back to the matter at hand here for the OP...

Use what you find works for you and stick with it! Again, Good luck! 
I truely hope you will be able to use some of the advise giving here and he starts doing what you ask of him! I know it is hard when he is a Cute Puppy and believe me it WILL GET BETTER...


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## winewinn (Jan 7, 2008)

I agree with leashing him to you... although he will probably chew that, too.


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## Zookeepermama (Nov 12, 2007)

lovealways_jami said:


> Well last night, I put on my layers and took him for a run instead of a walk. This is also helping me get to my weight loss goal ... so its good for both of us. When we got home I also leashed him to me with a "No Pull" harness and did my daily chores. This went on from 6:00 PM to about 10:00 PM. He STILL picked up anything he could get his mouth on. Anything that was on the floor particularly. Now, sure, its easy to say "keep the stuff off the floor" but with a 3-year old little boy, thats easier said than done. I took all of the stuff he picked up in his mouth out and replaced it with his toy duck ... treats ... etc. This didnt seem to work either. I just a firm manly "No" voice ... and I just sounded funny, and am not even sure he heard me. But when Keith came in the room, he was an angel. He is sooo well mannered when he is around. Maybe its a size thing? Heck I dont know. We are going to keep this routine every night, and maybe in a week, he will get it. I guess we will just have to see!


I keep my toddler toys in the living room and in her room, I dont let daisy in until I have all the bedroom doors shut and a baby gate across the living room. We have a small box of toys in the kitchen, but repeated and I mean like about a bizillion times of stern no thats not yours and replacing it with something that is hers has finally sunk in (plus I think weve caught a break between teeth!)


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sunny D Said:

_Hubby has never raised his voice and hasn't even used a firm voice. He just says, "Off" an points to the ground. Then he usually praises him with a pat or two. Is this wrong somehow, in your opinion, or am I reading your posts wrong?_ 

No, of course not. But are you saying he won't get off the couch when you say "off"? Or did I misunderstand?

_I'm also not saying a firm voice will get this particular pup to stop chewing on stuff. I just think he will listen better and chew on the right stuff eventually when his "leaders" tell him not to._

Well, I personally think it's all about how the leader manages the dog's environment that will eventually result in a dog not chewing wrong stuff and favoring right stuff. Dogs do what works for them. So long as chewing right stuff works, they'll continue to do it. Otherwise, if it's a situation where the dog initially chooses to chew the wrong thing, but then stops when the "leader" says to stop, then there's something about the leader that's being punishing at that exact moment and it's the punishment that's stopping the behavior right then and there, which is different to me than the dog having learned the correct behavior in the first place. Sure, so long as the dog finds the leader's actions aversive, over time, with enough consistency (catching him in the act and stopping him every time) the behavior will go away. I just find it easier to try and prevent it at the front end.

Kerribear said:
_I do not want to get into a debate with you on who is right and wrong. _

Really, I'm not looking for a debate. There are lots of ways to train a dog, and we're all equally passionate about what we belive to be the best way(s). I do also agree that different methods work better with different dogs, although I still would personally never venture into the real of primarily positive punishment-based methods. (Not saying you do, just saying my willingmess to utilize different methods does have its limits.)

To All:

Seriously, my posts weren't directed at or referring specifically to anything. It was more of a stream of conscious writing that just sort of happened, so I went with it.

To the Original Poster:

Adolescent dogs are a challenge, huh? Can't imagine doing it with a three year old! The best advice I can offer is to try and create kid zones that are blocked off by baby gates, etc. and become areas where you can easily keep the dog out of when you haven't been able to scan the floor for ingestibles. 

Good for you for trying something new of taking him for a run and tethering him to you! 

Have you tried teaching him to carry a toy? If his mouth is full of toy, it's harder for him to suck up the GI Joe men off the floor! Or what about having him eat ALL HIS MEALS out of a KONG toy? When you're in the kitchen, he's tethered to the table with a Kong to keep him busy and hopefully you can keep the human toys out of his reach?

Hang in there!

-S


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## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

Sometimes the bitter apple spray has the opposite effect. I know a woman who's dog just loved the taste and it actually made the problem even worse. Hopefully the chewing will come to end. Bailey was a big chewer and now at a year and a half, he could care less. I am still working on Bentley he likes to chew up my rugs...:doh:


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I haven't read through all the posts, but are you using Grannick's Bitter Apple spray...If not, throw away what you have and give it a try if you haven't found a way to deter the chewing. Tucker loved another brand, but hated Grannick's. It does have to be applied often...


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## Sunny Delight (Mar 10, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Sunny D Said:
> 
> _Hubby has never raised his voice and hasn't even used a firm voice. He just says, "Off" an points to the ground. Then he usually praises him with a pat or two. Is this wrong somehow, in your opinion, or am I reading your posts wrong?_
> 
> ...


For the first part, he will get off for me when I say "off", I just don't generally say it to him. He gets off the bed when I say off and waits to get up until I tell him to get up. I don't think he finds my husband aversive, he just knows that he won't let him on the sofa and I will. 

I guess I don't feel like telling a dog not to do something has a "punishing air" to it. That would mean that if we always want to be be positive, we *always* have to catch our dog *before* it does anything "wrong". I couldn't imagine having a puppy that I was able to supervise enough to never have to say "eh-eh" to if it started to chew on something inappropriate. Perhaps I just don't have that kind of time. 

You wondered in an earlier post why so many people don't want to put the time into training (or something like that) but most people are very busy. I personally believe that they shouldn't get a dog if they can't take care of it properly, which includes training and play and exercise, but I don't think for a regular, non-dog trainer that it is feasibly possible to be so 100% positive 100% of the time. It sounds great in theory, but I don't think most people could apply it in real life. In general, I'm a big proponent of positive training, but I also don't believe that saying "no" or "stop" or "leave it" or "eh-eh" are taboo.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

One more hint that helped us. We put the liquid in a spray bottle and because Tucker didn't like it, all I had to do was say "spray" and he stopped doing what he was doing immedietely.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

My reply in purple:



Sunny Delight said:


> For the first part, he will get off for me when I say "off", I just don't generally say it to him. He gets off the bed when I say off and waits to get up until I tell him to get up. I don't think he finds my husband aversive, he just knows that he won't let him on the sofa and I will.
> 
> I think you're exactly correct. Dogs are master discriminators. I never said (nor did I mean to imply) that your husband was harsh in his command.
> 
> ...


Again, never said saying "no", "stop", etc. was bad. It's just frustrating to me when I see people so quick to jump to that before (and instead of, in some cases) teaching what they want. Take chewing, for example. How many people actually TEACH the dog to chew bones? By teach it, I mean sit with the dog and actively reward bone chewing with calm praise and petting, or by praising and petting the dog when he chooses to chew a bone on his own? Most take it for granted when it happens, just happy the dog in'st getting into trouble at that moment.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> My reply in purple:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, never said saying "no", "stop", etc. was bad. It's just frustrating to me when I see people so quick to jump to that before (and instead of, in some cases) teaching what they want. Take chewing, for example. How many people actually TEACH the dog to chew bones? By teach it, I mean sit with the dog and actively reward bone chewing with calm praise and petting, or by praising and petting the dog when he chooses to chew a bone on his own? Most take it for granted when it happens, just happy the dog in'st getting into trouble at that moment.


I am thinking that you subscribe to the Whole Dog Journal or have read Pat Miller's books. It sounds so weird to describe positive punishment, it sounds like an oxymoron, but when it is explained, it makes perfect sense!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

fostermom said:


> I am thinking that you subscribe to the Whole Dog Journal or have read Pat Miller's books. It sounds so weird to describe positive punishment, it sounds like an oxymoron, but when it is explained, it makes perfect sense!


I'm a huge Pat Miller fan, but that's not where I learned the def of pos punishment. You'll find that def of pos punishment in basic scientific learning theory as part of the contingency table.

My favorite oxymoronic part is the idea that technically, when you say you're an "all positive trainer" you're saying that you use BOTH positive reinforcement AND positive punishment! How oxymoronic is THAT one! Scientifically-speaking, to train positively is to add things -- which can be goodies (+R) or punishers (+P).


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Sounds like non-dairy creamer...LOL I know what you mean though...I had to do this with one of my children. I felt like the Fairy God Mother sometimes.


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## moose (Dec 7, 2007)

Sounds like he thinks your lower than him in the chain of command. Jennie my wife had this problem with Moose so i enrolled them in puppy kindergarten and now he listens to her. Jennie taught me what was going on at class so we could be consistant so far it is working. I would buy the yuck spray instead of the bitter apple. I got our bottle at pet smart. moose hates it and so do I , I was spraying it one night and the mist got in the air and I breathed some in and it was nasty!!!! so be careful.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I'm a huge Pat Miller fan, but that's not where I learned the def of pos punishment. You'll find that def of pos punishment in basic scientific learning theory as part of the contingency table.
> 
> My favorite oxymoronic part is the idea that technically, when you say you're an "all positive trainer" you're saying that you use BOTH positive reinforcement AND positive punishment! How oxymoronic is THAT one! Scientifically-speaking, to train positively is to add things -- which can be goodies (+R) or punishers (+P).


I always have to think it through when I am explaining it. I was never any good at math!

Kimm, that is the perfect comparison. It makes sense, but not the first time you see it. lol


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## Sunny Delight (Mar 10, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Sounds like non-dairy creamer...LOL I know what you mean though...I had to do this with one of my children. I felt like the Fairy God Mother sometimes.


It's funny that you mention having to do this with one of your children. We have struggled with a discipline approach that would work for one of my sons, and the therapist we'd been seeing kept suggesting a positive approach. It feels very counter-intuitive. We aren't supposed to do the traditional things (like sending him to his room or grounding him) when he talks back, or treats his brothers badly, etc. It has been extremely challenging for me because I feel like he's getting away with something. Like when he's begging for an argument and pushing my buttons, I'm supposed to say, "I can't talk to you when you're acting this way" and walk out of the room. I feel like he got away with calling me a name. But in the long run he'll learn more self control when he has no one to take it out on. Anyway... our newest thing is giving out coins when he holds his tongue and resists criticizing people. He really likes it and says it motivates him to think more and that it's not even about the money. He almost gets a kick out of challenging himself to have more self control.

But this approach does not sit well with my hubby's family who is convinced that if kids do something wrong, you punish them, and they eventually learn to do it right. The other night my nephew was in a time out for over an hour (or isolation as they call it) as a consequence for speaking meanly to a sibling. I'll have to pray that when all hers and my kids are grown up, mine will be more well adjusted? 

Kim, what did you mean by the Fairy God Mother comment? Did you have a similar experience to mine at all? 

Quiz, I guess I understand the positive punishment a bit more now, but it's still hard to wrap my brain around.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

like i said before, i have used every nasty chew repellant sold, and the best i have found is the powdered alum mix. it doesn't need to be reapplied and i have yet to find an animal that will ignore the taste! i have never sprayed it directly in their mouth (that just seems horrible!) just on the thing that they are attracted to chew.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sunny Delight said:


> Quiz, I guess I understand the positive punishment a bit more now, but it's still hard to wrap my brain around.


Yeah, when you look at all four corners of the behavior quadrant, it gets really confusing sometimes.

In a nutshell...

Positive Punishment (is anything but "positive" in the "happy" sense) is about ADDING something to the situation in an effort to DECREASE a behavior. Spanking a kid, washing mouth out with soap, etc.

Negative Punishment is also often used in childrearing and involves the REMOVAL of something GOOD when the child exhibits an unwanted behavior in an effort to reduce the unwanted behavior in the future. So, when you walk away from the mouthy son, you're using negative punishment - that is, you're removing yourself (the good thing, attention, etc.) in an effort to prevent future incidents of mouthiness.

Positive Reinforcement - Usually the easiest for people to get. That's ADDING something GOOD in an effort to increase behavior. Giving the coins is positive reinforcement.

Negative Reinforcement is about REMOVING something BAD as a way of increasing the correct behavior in the future. It's best thought of as attaining relief from something BAD. For example, a kid does his homework to keep mom from nagging. Nagging negatively reinforces doing the homework and makes doing homework MORE likely to occur in the future. I think this one is usually the most challenging for people to get.

Basically, to be a reinforcement, it must make behavior MORE likely. To be a punisher, it makes the behavior less likely.

Not that anyone asked for that explanation... but I just like making sure I can spit it out and hopefully have it make sense! I like to see that I can keep it straight in my little pea brain!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

LOVEisGOLDEN said:


> (that just seems horrible!) just on the thing that they are attracted to chew.


Well, it actually isn't horrible at all. But it does taste bad...which is the point of the stuff in the first place. But was just a suggestion that was suggested to me that I found worked wonderfully. However it sounds like you found the solution that works for you.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Karen,

My comment had nothing to do with your posts at all. I had posted in this thread about the Grannick's (that may not seem to be a positive method) and I was speaking in relation to one of my children. I could never say "no" to him. Sometimes I couldn't say "yes" because he wouldn't "hear" what you were saying because he was all in a twit even if it was what he wanted to hear. So...we had to always keep everything postitive...which made me feel like the Fairy God Mother! It was Very, Very, difficult and I had to try to be Miss Mary Sunshine through it all. The worst part is, even that didn't always work. I'm so glad he's grown up and made so many changes.

The trainers told us to do the same with the dogs...


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

This may sound strange but I have found that all of the "positive" dog training books that I have been studying are really teaching me how to deal with behavior problems with my kids.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

gold'nchocolate said:


> This may sound strange but I have found that all of the "positive" dog training books that I have been studying are really teaching me how to deal with behavior problems with my kids.


I don't really think it's strange at all. Changing behavior is changing behavior. It's funny, there was recently an article on child-rearing and a trainer friend of mine emailed the article out to a few of us, substituting the word "dog" everywhere it had originally said "child". The article still made perfect sense and sounded just like what the reinforcement-based trainers have been saying for years!

Of course, I guess you could try alpha-rolling, ear-pinching and using the e-collar on the kids... cuz, ya know those reinforcement methods don't really work on *serious* behavior problems...

(NOTE: Just in case it's not glaringly clear... that last sentence is DRIPPING WITH SARCASM!)


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

gold'nchocolate said:


> This may sound strange but I have found that all of the "positive" dog training books that I have been studying are really teaching me how to deal with behavior problems with my kids.


Bingo! Stephanie explains it well. I just had to live it, but not so much with dogs...My experience was to be a few steps ahead of the behaviors, but it was tiring, I somehow learned to que by instinct and didn't realize it until a professional pointed out MY behaviors.


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