# Health Clearances versus Health Outcomes



## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

A theme I see over and over again on this forum is that getting a puppy whose parents had health clearances (hips, eyes, heart, elbows, etc) is a form of "hedging your bets," in terms of health outcomes of the puppy (ie - it makes for healthier puppies).

I'm inclined to agree with that, but there are quite a lot of anecdotes of dogs whose parents never had health clearances, but lived to be 15+ years old with no major health problems. Similarly, there are puppies from healthy parents that lived to be 3-5 years old, and had health problems their whole lives.

Is there any data on this? Something like "a puppy whose parents never received health clearances is x% more likely to develop y disease", etc.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I doubt there is the data collected you are looking for. Most of the time BYB don't follow there lines like repetuble breeders do.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

As for me and mine, I'll stick with the puppies from cleared stock vs. the unknown luck of the draw. Sure BYB dogs can live long and healthy lives, there's no denying that. However encouraging the continued ignorant practices of BYB's (by supporting them through purchase) diminish the odds of "drawing" one of the long lived, healthy dogs, the more they saturate the market.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldentemperment said:


> A theme I see over and over again on this forum is that getting a puppy whose parents had health clearances (hips, eyes, heart, elbows, etc) is a form of "hedging your bets," in terms of health outcomes of the puppy (ie - it makes for healthier puppies).
> 
> I'm inclined to agree with that, but there are quite a lot of anecdotes of dogs whose parents never had health clearances, but lived to be 15+ years old with no major health problems. Similarly, there are puppies from healthy parents that lived to be 3-5 years old, and had health problems their whole lives.
> 
> Is there any data on this? Something like "a puppy whose parents never received health clearances is x% more likely to develop y disease", etc.


I wouldn't go by data on the internet. However it would be interesting since this is a huge forum of golden owners from all walks of life to honestly post types of health problems they have encountered along the way.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

There is data that reports that a dog with OFA hips scored "x" bred to a dog with OFA hips scored "y" have "z"percent chance of producing puppies without displaysia. Of course the higher x and y are, the higher z will be. Using dog's that haven't had clearances is like closing your eyes, reaching into a bag, and hoping what you pull out is good.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Below are some stats taken straight from the FAQs on the OFA page regarding elbow dysphasia. I'm thinking I like my puppies chances a lot better if both his parents have normal elbows... Don't you? 

Maybe if everyone followed the recommended protocol, we would have a lot fewer cases down the road. It's not too much to hope for.

Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.

Example 2:

Below are some comparative elbow statistics on Golden Retrievers from the BVA (UK) scheme and the OFA.

Of the total of 577 Golden Retrievers evaluated by the BVA (through 2003):

434 are normal (75%)
87 are Grade I (15%)
40 are Grade II (7%)
16 are Grade III (3%)
Total of 143 affected (25%)

Of the total of 9630 Golden Retrievers evaluated by the OFA (through 2003):

8484 are normal (88.1%)
856 are Grade I (8.9%)
187 are Grade II (1.9%)
72 are Grade III (0.7%)
Total of 1115 affected (11.6%)

Comparing that data, it would appear that when the overall percentage of ED in the breed is higher, so also is the overall percentage of Grade II's and Grade III's – the potentially clinically affected dogs. It is also possible that this percentage may increase even more rapidly than the overall breed percentage. Note that while the total percentage of Goldens affected with ED in the UK is approximately double that of the US (25% compared to 11.6%), the percentage of higher grades in the UK is more than triple that of the US (10% compared to 2.6%). Although it is not certain that US Goldens would follow this exact trend if the percentage of ED began to increase, the data is compelling enough to warrant close vigilance and caution regarding potentially breeding dogs with Grade I ED.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

@nolefan: Great info. Very clear from this data the relationship between dysplasia in parents and their offspring. I wish there was data on longevity...but then again, that might be really hard to collect, because you'd need a COD for all dogs, which may or may not be feasible.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I know with the hip and elbow clearances, the incidence rate is cut by about 50% when the parents are cleared. From that, you could deduce quite firmly that the rates would be cut further for multigenerational clearances.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

goldentemperment said:


> I wish there was data on longevity...but then again, that might be really hard to collect, because you'd need a COD for all dogs, which may or may not be feasible.


It might not happen in our lifetime, but if enough breeders do the right thing, it might be possible one day to have a lot of our worries wiped out. It's up to us to support the breeders doing their best to follow the GOlden Retriever Clubs code of ethics regarding genetic testing... It would be wonderful if we had guarantees now, but what we have now thanks to organizations like OFA is a huge step ahead of what we had even ten years ago. Things like being able to cut your risk of a dog with elbow dysphasia in half are huge. I have to think that we will eventually be rewarded for doing the right thing with regard to our stewardship of our dogs.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

nolefan said:


> *It might not happen in our lifetime*, but if enough breeders do the right thing, it might be possible one day to have a lot of our worries wiped out. It's up to us to support the breeders doing their best to follow the GOlden Retriever Clubs code of ethics regarding genetic testing... It would be wonderful if we had guarantees now, but what we have now thanks to organizations like OFA is a huge step ahead of what we had even ten years ago. Things like being able to cut your risk of a dog with elbow dysphasia in half are huge. I have to think that we will eventually be rewarded for doing the right thing with regard to our stewardship of our dogs.


Let's be realistic. It will never happen. Unless they have laws that regulate how one buys dogs.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

The reason that there are BYB and puppy mills is because people buy their product. As long as there is the need for inexpensive dogs, there will be BYB. As far as the puppy mills/pet store puppies, they are as expensive as a well bred dog from a reputable breeder so the only thing that I can think of there, is that people just don't know any better. 
Although I don't agree with the BYB, I know that they can sell their dogs because there is always someone out there looking for a cheap dog and if that dog has health problems, it may end up in a shelter so that they can make room for the next cheap dog. I believe that most of the dogs that end up in rescues and shelters come from BYB.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldhaven said:


> The reason that there are BYB and puppy mills is because people buy their product. As long as there is the need for inexpensive dogs, there will be BYB. As far as the puppy mills/pet store puppies, they are as expensive as a well bred dog from a reputable breeder so the only thing that I can think of there, is that people just don't know any better.
> Although I don't agree with the BYB, I know that they can sell their dogs because there is always someone out there looking for a cheap dog and if that dog has health problems, it may end up in a shelter so that they can make room for the next cheap dog.* I believe that most of the dogs that end up in rescues and shelters come from BYB*.


I believe that also. Not because of the breeding but because statistically speaking the population of dogs from byb out weigh the numbers from reputable breeder.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

goldhaven said:


> As long as there is the need for inexpensive dogs, there will be BYB...because there is always someone out there looking for a cheap dog...



_A lot_ of BYBs charge more than reputable breeders. Not all, of course, but quite a few. High price _alone_ never equals quality. Unfortunately, many people are fooled by just that. Chance's breeder charges an exorbitant amount for puppies. People automatically assume they got a fantastic dog because the price was so high. BYBs make a fortune off of ignorant buyers. No expenses from health tests, showing, competing, titles, medical care...nothing. Yet they reap the benefits of a huge price tag. Disgusting to me. I don't know how responsible breeders deal with it, especially those on the board that have to read about it all the time. I'd seriously be doing this all day  ...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I believe that also. Not because of the breeding but because statistically speaking the population of dogs from byb out weigh the numbers from reputable breeder.


I think it has more to do with most reputable breeders taking their dogs back for any reason, while most backyard breeders are not willing to do that.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I think it has more to do with most reputable breeders taking their dogs back for any reason, while most backyard breeders are not willing to do that.


 
I'm sure you do However if there is such a problem with byb's population outweighing reputable breeders population, numbers don't lie.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm sure you do However if there is such a problem with byb's population outweighing reputable breeders population, numbers don't lie.


I don't quite get what you're trying to say there. But I think dogs from backyard breeders also have a much larger percentage of dogs from their total population that end up in shelters. If you were to randomly select one thousand puppies from backyard breeders and one thousand puppies from reputable breeders, I strongly believe a lot more from the first group would end up in shelters than from the second group.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I don't quite get what you're trying to say there. But I think dogs from backyard breeders also have a much larger percentage of dogs from their total population that end up in shelters. If you were to randomly select one thousand puppies from backyard breeders and one thousand puppies from reputable breeders, I strongly believe a lot more from the first group would end up in shelters than from the second group.


Backyard breeders/puppy mills have a much larger population, that is why you will see more of them in shelters period. That is the facts. Anybody can believe anything they want.

Edit to say: If the population was comparable I would hope that the reputables would have less end up in shelters. I wouldn't think anything less.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I would love to know the percentage of reputable breeders dogs going to shelters...........


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kfayard said:


> I would love to know the percentage of reputable breeders dogs going to shelters...........


It can't happen unless an owner breaches the contract. Part of the basic definition of a reputable breeder is that they write into the contract that a dog _must_ be given up to them instead of being given to a shelter or rescue. So, _by definition_, a reputable breeder's dogs come back instead of ending up there.

The only exception is if the owner loses the dog accidentally or breaches the contract intentionally, which would be relatively rare.


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## ChopperJustin (May 11, 2012)

goldentemperment said:


> @nolefan: Great info. Very clear from this data the relationship between dysplasia in parents and their offspring. I wish there was data on longevity...but then again, that might be really hard to collect, because you'd need a COD for all dogs, which may or may not be feasible.


I was reading a very informative paper done on cancer in the bread and what it means for Goldens. It made the same lamentation; that they needed more of this kind of data. As responsible pet owners we need to help these research foundations by reporting our COD to them and have them recorded in places like K9 data etc... And not just "cancer" but more specific, like which type etc... Even above that these organizations would benefit from blood/ tumor samples donated from the families of affected dogs. Its really REALLY hard to be thinking about these kinds of things when one of our family members are experiencing a disease, but this type of research and data we want for our breed can only occur if we help and participate.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ChopperJustin said:


> I was reading a very informative paper done on cancer in the bread and what it means for Goldens. It made the same lamentation; that they needed more of this kind of data. As responsible pet owners we need to help these research foundations by reporting our COD to them and have them recorded in places like K9 data etc... And not just "cancer" but more specific, like which type etc... Even above that these organizations would benefit from blood/ tumor samples donated from the families of affected dogs. Its really REALLY hard to be thinking about these kinds of things when one of our family members are experiencing a disease, but this type of research and data we want for our breed can only occur if we help and participate.


On this note - if you have a 6-8 year old healthy golden, you might want to participate in this study. This is w/regards to lymphoma. 

Golden Retriever Study

And something to keep in mind... not all cancers are the same. The vets I've spoken to do not really connect cancer in old age with breeding. They believe it's mainly due to old age and the body/cells starting to go haywire. And vets believe that golden retrievers older than 10 are geriatric and getting into that danger territory. And I believe this is mainly because regardless of where these goldens were bred, when they are really old - the likelihood of them developing some form of cancer goes up. 

Cancer with younger dogs - those are the ones that scare me the most and I hope we find a cause and a way to prevent them.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> It can't happen unless an owner breaches the contract. Part of the basic definition of a reputable breeder is that they write into the contract that a dog _must_ be given up to them instead of being given to a shelter or rescue. So, _by definition_, a reputable breeder's dogs come back instead of ending up there.
> 
> The only exception is if the owner loses the dog accidentally or breaches the contract intentionally, which would be relatively rare.


I know a breeder that breeds springer spaniels. She is also very active in the local rescue group. The rescue group got 2 of her dogs and knew that they were hers so she was able to get them back. The dogs were micro chipped and hers was a contact name on the chip. The dogs owner died and the kids didn't want the dogs and didn't know about the contract so they were turned into the shelter. She has now amended her contract so that families actually have to put in their will where the dog will go in the event of their death. This is an example of a reputable breeder and something that you will not find in any BYB, and this is why most of the shelter dogs come from BYB.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

goldhaven said:


> I know a breeder that breeds springer spaniels. She is also very active in the local rescue group. The rescue group got 2 of her dogs and knew that they were hers so she was able to get them back. The dogs were micro chipped and hers was a contact name on the chip. The dogs owner died and the kids didn't want the dogs and didn't know about the contract so they were turned into the shelter. *She has now amended her contract so that families actually have to put in their will where the dog will go in the event of their death.* This is an example of a reputable breeder and something that you will not find in any BYB, and this is why most of the shelter dogs come from BYB.


I think it might be a good idea for a breeder to mention the importance of identifying what is to be done with the dog upon the owner's death; but to have a contract requiring the new owners to to add it to their will is going a step too far, IMO. It strikes me as a breeder who is not comfortable giving up any control.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldhaven said:


> I know a breeder that breeds springer spaniels. She is also very active in the local rescue group. The rescue group got 2 of her dogs and knew that they were hers so she was able to get them back. The dogs were micro chipped and hers was a contact name on the chip. The dogs owner died and the kids didn't want the dogs and didn't know about the contract so they were turned into the shelter. *She has now amended her contract so that families actually have to put in their will where the dog will go in the event of their death.* *This is an example of a reputable breeder and something that you will not find in any BYB*, *and this is why most of the shelter dogs come from BYB.*


How is that possible? She has no legal rights to a persons will lol! You have to be a fool to think people don't break these contracts. They are not rare. I know off hand of 2 people. I also was told another person breached hers because her contract said that if they were to divorce the puppy would be taken back by the breeder. Insane huh? The examples of some of these contracts to me paints a kinda bizarre picture but thats me The truth is the reason more byb/puppy mill dogs end of in shelters is because there a MORE of them.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

A lot of these reasons is why I didn't go with a 'reputable' breeder, as some are choosing to brand them, just based on some of the ridiculous contract stipulations. I buy my pet, I have the last say as to what happens to them. I prefer Hobby Breeders rather than those expensive, controlled breeders. Puppy Mills is a totally different business which I would never contribute to, hence why I've never purchased from a pet store. I've met the breeder personally, went to their house/property and met all the parents, cousins, aunts, siblings and the newcomers to the pack. These 2 (cats and dog) breeders were in the business for the love of the breed and not for how much they could profit.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Deb_Bayne said:


> A lot of these reasons is why I didn't go with a 'reputable' breeder, as some are choosing to brand them, just based on some of the ridiculous contract stipulations. I buy my pet, I have the last say as to what happens to them. I prefer Hobby Breeders rather than those expensive, controlled breeders. .


Deb- - these people ARE hobby breeders. Dog breeding is a hobby. Showing dogs is a hobby. Competing with dogs is a hobby. The only point where it is not just a hobby is when the people spend less on their dogs than they charge for the puppies. Then it is a home based business of a backyard breeder variety. There is a very thin line between a backyard breeder and what you describe. Too thin.

I'm not sure what you and others are identifying as hobby breeders, but the issue with people who just breed and sell puppies is they are the ones selling dogs to people who SHOULD NEVER own dogs. There is no concern about the future life of that dog. There is no care about what happens when that impulsive buy goes sour. There is no foresight or protection of the puppy. 

Those "ridiculous" contract stipulations are there because there are crappy dog owners out there. 

Those expensive controlled breeders are making sure that none of their dogs winds up in some animal shelter or humane society somewhere. Or in a puppy mill. 

Using the "hobby breeder" label does not make them less irresponsible if they are selling puppies cheap to anyone who wants a puppy. I suspect people are using that label simply because they want to represent their dog's breeder as something a lot more reputable or honorable than those people were.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Megora is right-hobby breeders are breeders who compete with their dog in some endeavor, thus it is their hobby. I compete in conformation, I have friends who compete in field and agility.

This is from the GRCA

GRCA-Choosing A Reputable Breeder



SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER.

The very best choice. The serious and dedicated hobby breeder regards his/her dogs as even more than a hobby, although the true fancier does not expect to make a profit. When someone is involved in dogs for the enjoyment of each individual animal, for participating in any of the many aspects of dogsport, and for producing the finest animals possible, the results are SUPERIOR. The best breeders acknowledge responsibility for each and every puppy produced, and stand behind every dog they have bred.

Unequivocally, your choice should be from the ranks of the SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER. It is an interesting fact that poor quality puppies from pet shops and backyard breeders are often sold for the same price and sometimes even more than those purchased from the experienced hobby breeder. The question is: How does one recognize the responsible breeder? Presented below is a list of requirements the breeder should meet before you consider purchasing a puppy. Don't be afraid to confront the breeder with these requirements. It is your right, and you can rest assured that the dedicated breeder will respond positively and with pride.
The breeder should:

Belong to the Golden Retriever Club of America, a local Golden Retriever club, or an all-breed club. Ideally he/she should belong to all three; however, sometimes this is impossible. The reason for this requirement is that this sort of participation indicates depth of involvement. This breeder is exposed to other points of view, learns more about the breed and modern breeding practices, and is kept up to date on AKC rules and regulations.

Be involved in showing his/her dogs in the breed ring, the obedience ring, in hunting tests/field trials, agility, tracking, or in a combination of any of these. The reason for this requirement is that it means that the breeder is not working in a vacuum. The breeder who does not participate has no idea how good his/her dogs really are, and is deprived of the opportunity to share information and ideas with others. Showing provides the competition which encourages breeders to produce better dogs. The breeder who competes wants to prove how good his/her dogs are and is putting his/her breeding program on the line. This breeder is not relying on just a pedigree to indicate quality. Even if you do not want a competition animal, you deserve a companion that is the end result of a carefully planned litter; a puppy which received the same care as a potential champion. The breeder who competes in organized activities is known by others and has a reputation to uphold. This breeder will be as careful and honest in selling you your pet puppy as in selling show stock.

Be able to show you a clean environment; healthy, well-socialized puppies; and a dam with a good temperament. You should avoid: a) shy, whimpering, fearful puppies; b) puppies with dull coats, crusty or running eyes, signs of diarrhea, rashes or sores on their abdomens; c) signs of neglect, such as lack of water, pans of uneaten food, and dirty conditions; d) a breeder who will sell a puppy under seven weeks of age, as early separation from the dam and littermates can be very detrimental both psychologically and physically.

Give you a period of time in which to allow you to have the puppy examined by a veterinarian to determine its state of health, so that both of you are assured as to the condition of the puppy at the time of sale. If a problem should arise, it can then be quickly resolved.

Provide you with a record of the dates and types of vaccinations and de-worming done, feeding instructions, a 3-to 5-generation pedigree, and an AKC registration application to apply for registration of the puppy in your own name with the American Kennel Club (AKC). Sometimes the registration application is not available at the time you take your puppy home. If this is the case, have the breeder state on a dated, signed receipt of payment that the application will be sent to you as soon as possible. The registered names and AKC numbers of both parents, date of birth of the litter, and puppy's color and sex should be indicated. You can then contact AKC with complete information should there later be a problem with the papers.

Give you written instructions on feeding, training and care. This booklet was designed in part for that purpose. There are other materials that are useful; some are listed in Appendix B.
Be able to show you proof that both the sire and dam of the litter have had their hips X-rayed, and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and/or PennHIP; have had their elbows X-rayed and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or a board-certified veterinary radiologist: have had their hearts examined by a board-certified veterinary cardiologist; and have had their eyes examined by a board-certified veterinary ophthalmologist within the last 12-18 months. The breeder should also be willing to answer your questions about any other possible hereditary problems, including but not limited to seizures, hypothyroidism, and skin problems or allergies.

Ask you what kind of dogs you have had in the past, and what happened to them; whether or not you have a fenced yard; and whether or not the dog will be allowed to be a house dog and a member of the family. Sincere breeders will be a bit hesitant to sell you a puppy until they know more about you, what you are looking for in a dog, and what lifestyle you have in mind for your dog. Having the best interest of the puppy at heart, reputable breeders will take great pains to place puppies properly the first time around. A returned puppy is a traumatic experience for all concerned, so the breeder who is always willing to accept a puppy back will try to make certain that a Golden is the breed for you.

Be able to give you references: the names of people who have purchased puppies in the past, the names of other breeders, and the veterinarian who provides care for the breeder's dogs.
Provide some sort of written contract and/or conditions of sale. Any warranty of quality or health of the dog, and any warranty against development of hereditary problems or show-ring disqualifications in an animal intended for showing or breeding, should be in writing. The warranty should be absolutely explicit and a signed copy should be provided to each party.

Both pedigree and registration papers are provided by reputable breeders at NO extra charge. The practice of charging extra for papers is forbidden by the AKC, and should be reported. This should not be confused with withholding papers until the dog has been spayed or neutered, which is how puppies not purchased for showing/breeding are sold by many reputable breeders.

Make it clear that his/her responsibility continues long after you have taken your puppy home, in fact as long as the dog is alive. Many dedicated breeders will ask that the dog be returned to them, or placed with new owners who meet their approval, if ever for any reason you are unable to keep the dog. They'll cheerfully be available for advice whenever needed, and can ease your way over many rough spots.

If your breeder meets all of these requirements you are in good hands. If you find yourself with a negative response to any of these requirements, think twice and discuss the situation with someone else. DON'T be impulsive and DO ask questions


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Some breeders may have ridiculous contracts, but most have very reasonable ones. Off the top of my head, the only "controlling" part of my breeder's contract is that I cannot have Molly spayed before 7 months. This is because she knows when her bitches have their first heat. Other than that, it's stuff like bringing the dog back to her for any reason, and her having the right to buy Molly back for the original purchase price if I am mistreating her. To say the contract is the reason one won't buy from any reputable breeder is not good enough. In fact, I wouldn't buy from anyone who doesn't care enough about her dogs to produce a reasonable contract.


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

I think there should be another designation added between backyard breeder & serious hobby breeder- maybe semi-hobby breeder? Our breeder had us fill out an extensive questionairre, interviewed us, had us sign a thorough contract that we would spay & could only relinquish the pup back to her if we couldn't keep her, pedigree/AKC registration was included (no extra charge), had clean facillities, dogs were raised in the home, well socialized, clean, microchipped the puppy, did all puppy shots & gave us a shot record with the vet's contact info, we had 72 hours to have our own vet check the puppy, registration is limited (so we're not permitted to breed our pup, must have her spayed, which we did), parents were ages 2 & 4 at time of breeding, parents both had hip/elbow clearanes (although breeder failed to register the mom's clearances online), price of the pup was in line with Golden prices ($1,000), she doesn't let the puppies go home until 10 weeks (not 8, because she thinks 8 is just "too young"). BUT our breeder did not check the hearts with a cardiologist & did not do eye clearances, and does not show, and does definitely breed for a specific color. I do not know if she is a member of a club. We received a DVD on care instructions, leash, starter food, collar, chew toys from home with mom's scent. She came and checked out our house & spent much time with us & the pup that first evening. She has been available via email to answer quesitons (although she doesn't respond super-quickly). We did not think to ask for references. Everything seems so "black & white" on this forum- is there really nothing between a reputable breeder & a disreputable breeder? Although I don't know if I'd ever purchase from the same person again, because next time I would like all four clearances, I still have a hard time thinking of the breeder we got our puppy from as a "bad" breeder who is "disreputable".


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

debra1704 said:


> I think there should be another designation added between backyard breeder & serious hobby breeder- maybe semi-hobby breeder? Our breeder had us fill out an extensive questionairre, interviewed us, had us sign a thorough contract that we would spay & could only relinquish the pup back to her if we couldn't keep her, pedigree/AKC registration was included (no extra charge), had clean facillities, dogs were raised in the home, well socialized, clean, microchipped the puppy, did all puppy shots & gave us a shot record with the vet's contact info, we had 72 hours to have our own vet check the puppy, registration is limited (so we're not permitted to breed our pup, must have her spayed, which we did), parents were ages 2 & 4 at time of breeding, parents both had hip/elbow clearanes (although breeder failed to register the mom's clearances online), price of the pup was in line with Golden prices ($1,000), she doesn't let the puppies go home until 10 weeks (not 8, because she thinks 8 is just "too young"). BUT our breeder did not check the hearts with a cardiologist & did not do eye clearances, and does not show, and does definitely breed for a specific color. I do not know if she is a member of a club. We received a DVD on care instructions, leash, starter food, collar, chew toys from home with mom's scent. She came and checked out our house & spent much time with us & the pup that first evening. She has been available via email to answer quesitons (although she doesn't respond super-quickly). We did not think to ask for references. Everything seems so "black & white" on this forum- is there really nothing between a reputable breeder & a disreputable breeder? Although I don't know if I'd ever purchase from the same person again, because next time I would like all four clearances, I still have a hard time thinking of the breeder we got our puppy from as a "bad" breeder who is "disreputable".


Unfortunately, if she didn't do all four clearances, then she isn't all that reputable. Why did she charge a price in line with golden prices if she didn't do all of them? Not showing is one thing, but not doing all the clearances is another.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

debra1704 said:


> I think there should be another designation added between backyard breeder & serious hobby breeder- maybe semi-hobby breeder? Our breeder had us fill out an extensive questionairre, interviewed us, had us sign a thorough contract that we would spay & could only relinquish the pup back to her if we couldn't keep her, pedigree/AKC registration was included (no extra charge), had clean facillities, dogs were raised in the home, well socialized, clean, microchipped the puppy, did all puppy shots & gave us a shot record with the vet's contact info, we had 72 hours to have our own vet check the puppy, registration is limited (so we're not permitted to breed our pup, must have her spayed, which we did), parents were ages 2 & 4 at time of breeding, parents both had hip/elbow clearanes (although breeder failed to register the mom's clearances online), price of the pup was in line with Golden prices ($1,000), she doesn't let the puppies go home until 10 weeks (not 8, because she thinks 8 is just "too young"). BUT our breeder did not check the hearts with a cardiologist & did not do eye clearances, and does not show, and does definitely breed for a specific color. I do not know if she is a member of a club. We received a DVD on care instructions, leash, starter food, collar, chew toys from home with mom's scent. She came and checked out our house & spent much time with us & the pup that first evening. She has been available via email to answer quesitons (although she doesn't respond super-quickly). We did not think to ask for references. Everything seems so "black & white" on this forum- is there really nothing between a reputable breeder & a disreputable breeder? Although I don't know if I'd ever purchase from the same person again, because next time I would like all four clearances, I still have a hard time thinking of the breeder we got our puppy from as a "bad" breeder who is "disreputable".


That certainly does not sound like somebody who is irresponsible _at least in the placement of the puppies._ 

The heart clearances is concerning as are the eyes, simply because the breed does have heart issues and eye issues which can be devastating to the dog and the owner. 

Not showing or doing anything out of the ordinary while owning both parents and selling puppies for $1000 each, that still is something of a business, isn't it? Especially if these people are breeding every year or twice a year. This is a supplemental income for them. 


Breeding for color alone - I have no opinion on that. I guess the other things concern me more? 
I do think that holding the puppies until 10 weeks is a bit much and too close to a fear stage to put the puppies through any disturbances at that time.... :uhoh:


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

I honestly don't think she knew any better (to do all 4 clearances). Is there no "learning curve" in this business? No mentoring? I have to say, I've been surprised by the "shunning" of people that don't do things perfectly. I would think there would be more education of breeders among other breeders, and more effort to get everyone in compliance (in a nice, non-threatening manner). Perhaps AKC could make clearances a stipulation for receiving registration. I do believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. As to the price, the breeder in my town charged $2,500 a pup (pet quality), and the pet store was charging more, so to me, $1,000 was quite affordable. The only cheaper prices were the puppy mills. And the rescues turned us down.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

A reputable breeder shows their dogs and does all four clearances. Anything less does not make the person a reputable breeder, and they do get lumped into the "BYB" category. I think many people believe that a good breeder should not do anything less. They do the clearances so they pass on the genes for (hopefully) good health, and they show their dogs to demonstrate their working ability, etc, because they want to produce dogs that fit the standard. A healthy dog who doesn't fit the standard (physically or mentally), should not be bred just as much as an unhealthy dog should not be bred.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

debra1704 said:


> , parents both had hip/elbow clearanes (although breeder failed to register the mom's clearances online)


I'm confused, are you in America? OFA results for hips and elbows are automatically put into the online database unless the dog fails the clearances.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

debra1704 said:


> I honestly don't think she knew any better (to do all 4 clearances). Is there no "learning curve" in this business? No mentoring? I have to say, I've been surprised by the "shunning" of people that don't do things perfectly. I would think there would be more education of breeders among other breeders, and more effort to get everyone in compliance (in a nice, non-threatening manner). Perhaps AKC could make clearances a stipulation for receiving registration. I do believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. As to the price, the breeder in my town charged $2,500 a pup (pet quality), and the pet store was charging more, so to me, $1,000 was quite affordable. The only cheaper prices were the puppy mills. And the rescues turned us down.


See this is the issue... for responsible breeders this is not "a business" and there is plenty of mentoring but not for people who are only in it for the money and view it as a business where they can supplement their income. I personally have two folks that I mentor. I personally have a mentor in goldens and another in Flat Coats and probably will forever. These are the people that I bounce ideas off of. However, if someone came to me because they wanted to start a business off the backs of their dogs then no I will not get involved nor will I help them to become better backyard breeders. If they want to start doing things with their dogs and do all the clearances etc etc then thats fine, I will help them learn but otherwise no. 

There is a woman I mentor who was advertising her english creme goldens but I did get the feeling that she didnt know. I gave her some suggestions and she reworded her website. She took the few small suggestions I made and ran with them. I will help her. 

But this is not a BUSINESS to a reputable breeder. We are looking to help the breed. We are looking for our next generation of show or performance puppies. We are looking toward the future as to how we can help the breed as a whole in the coming years. 

WE ARE NOT looking at our pocketbooks 

It really is very simple


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

debra1704 said:


> I honestly don't think she knew any better (to do all 4 clearances). Is there no "learning curve" in this business? No mentoring? I have to say, I've been surprised by the "shunning" of people that don't do things perfectly. I would think there would be more education of breeders among other breeders, and more effort to get everyone in compliance (in a nice, non-threatening manner). Perhaps AKC could make clearances a stipulation for receiving registration.


There _are_ mentors and friendly people out there. Here in my home state there are 3 local golden retriever clubs in my area. Each one of them are open and accepting of new members. Each one of them has members who are eager and happy to welcome new people in and offer guidance. 

If these breeders want mentoring or advice on how to go about breeding the right way, and especially if they love the breed - they have to get out of the house. 

The shunning part is not directed at the people. It is directed at their businesses. They are cutting corners and selling puppies. It would be irresponsible to encourage people to buy those puppies. 

About the registration detail - that would not work. You can't get clearances until the dogs are 2 years old. Most people in shows and competition have their dogs out prior to that 24 month mark. You can't enter AKC shows without a legitimate registration number.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think she meant not registering the litter unless the parents have the clearances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I'm confused, are you in America? OFA results for hips and elbows are automatically put into the online database unless the dog fails the clearances.


Or unless the breeder wants to keep the results hidden? I seem to remember there is an option like that. 

I didn't want to say before, but the only reason I could think of why the results would not be available immediately is if the breeder bred with prelims.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I think she meant not registering the litter unless the parents have the clearances.


Well that.... I agree with.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Deb_Bayne said:


> I prefer Hobby Breeders rather than those expensive, controlled breeders.


I'm totally sympathetic to the idea avoiding breeders who engage in overreach in their contracts, but a hobby breeder is not just somebody who breeds as a hobby. The term "hobby breeder" means that the person breeds _because_ their hobby is to _compete_ with dogs. Breeding itself isn't the hobby.

If a breeder doesn't compete in any venue and doesn't complete heath clearances, that's usually what we're talking about when we say "backyard breeder" (BYB). That's _not_ an ideal place to get a dog. You can get lucky with a BYB dog, and many of us have before we learned more about how risky it can be to buy a dog without proven competition and health clearances in the ancestry. However, that kind of dog has much, much higher risks of health and behavioral problems than a true hobby bred dog.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

debra1704 said:


> I honestly don't think she knew any better (to do all 4 clearances). Is there no "learning curve" in this business? No mentoring? I have to say, I've been surprised by the "shunning" of people that don't do things perfectly. I would think there would be more education of breeders among other breeders, and more effort to get everyone in compliance (in a nice, non-threatening manner).


I agree that people should definitely be a bit nicer on this board in general when it comes to educating people, though this particular thread doesn't seem to have been particularly harsh anywhere.

However, any learning curve you engage in with the life and health of dogs needs to happen _before_ you put two intact animals together. You could learn about the importance of clearances in less than an hour of browsing grca.org. If you were willing to spend a whole afternoon, you could learn that hip and elbow clearances cut the risk of DJD in half (probably more if they're multigenerational). You'd also learn about SAS and how heartbreaking it is to have a puppy suddenly die under the dining room table, and about pigmentary uveitis and the way a middle-aged dog might have to have an eye removed.

I think you need to get educated before you produce a litter. In terms of competing and titling and some of the other longer-term things, I think you'll find people have a lot more patience with new breeders. In fact, pretty much all of the breeders we hold up with respect and admiration were mentored by a previous generation of breeders in exactly the kind of supportive environment you're advocating for.

But yes, you're going to see people shunned when they put testicles and ovaries together in the backyard and then sell the puppies. It simply isn't responsible when there are such basic, proven tools for reducing health risks.

You're also not going to see people very warm to the idea of giving those BYBs money, since it encourages them to repeat the careless breeding. You're _always_ going to see a warm reception for a BYB dog, since the dog doesn't choose his own breeding, but you're not always going to see a warm reception for breeding practices that don't meet the bare minimum of ethics.


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## debra1704 (Feb 22, 2012)

I feel that, in an ideal world, of course everyone would become an expert before embarking on their business/hobby or other pursuit, not just in the dog breeding world, but in general. I know this is not an exact anaology, but I had my own antiques business for 20+years. When a dealer is starting out, sometimes they make mistakes out of ignorance: sell a piece attributed to one era when it is actually a different age, sell a piece with replaced parts unknowingly as an original, price something too high, etc. Do know that I have no intention of ever breeding dogs- Winter was spayed last Monday, actually. I'm just tolerant of people who may have bred a litter already, and are learning as they go (like that lady a few months ago that posted puppy pictures but only had preliminary clearances thus far, but was totally willing to get the full clearances and "do things right" for the next litter- she just did not know prior, and very graciously accepted criticism here).

Maybe I'm stretching things, but it seems that there are some who might think that the ten puppies in Winter's litter should not have been purchased at all, out of protest of pratices that were not 100% in line with what is advocated by Golden Retriever groups. I guess this would cause the breeder would "get the message" that others think she is unethical, so in theory she would stop breeding. Then the ten puppies would go to a shelter, who would carefully vet applicants & still probably charge $500 a pup. (Side note: if this had happened, we would have never been able to get Winter, as we were turned down by the rescues because our youngest child is 4). Everyone who adopted the puppies would be commended.

Bottom line, Winter is the same dog, regardless of where she came from, and we absolutely adore her. She had already been born, and regardless of how you look at it, she needed a loving home with the means to care for her, train her, give her veterinary care or whatever else she might need. Our last dog was a rescue, so we're used to having "unknowns" in regards to health & pedigree. So far, so good. If there is a problem down the line, we're here to address it. Hips/elbows of the parents were clear, and I'll have the OFA for eyes done on our own when she's 2. We didn't mind paying for her and would pay the money to have her all over again. She's our dog. We love her. We love her so much we would probably have paid triple at this point. A vet will check her heart annually. And again, we're not going to breed her- she's a pet. 

I personally feel that it is impossible to stop so-called backyard breeders from breeding without regulations put in place. If a farmer, a neighbor, a family member wants to breed a dog, and they have another available to breed with, they will probably do so. (Do note that I am reserving comment as to if this is right or wrong, I'm just stating that I believe the practice would continue). I think that the only way to stop this practice would be to put regulations in place where perhaps the AKC issues a temporary AKC registration certificate, therefore the dogs could be shown/competed with, and withholds the final registration paperwork until either a) one can provide proof that all 4 clearances have been completed or b) proof is provided that the dog has been spayed/neutered. When you attempt to register a dog, ACK could mail you two handouts: one on the benefits of spaying/neutering, and one on the 4 clearances and where to go to get them. I agree that one can learn about clearances online quickly, but only if one knows to go looking for the information. 

I didn't go back & read all of the replies because I honestly didn't want to risk upsetting myself over comments from people I don't even know and who don't know me. We love our dog, we bought her, it was legal for us to buy her, we provide her with exceptional care and love, she is our only pet & is showered with attention, and I guess I don't see how it is anyone else's business beyong that.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's never, never a comment on an individual pet dog when we talk about breeding practices. Winter looks happy and lovely. She deserves the best possible shot at a long healthy life, and while her breeder didn't do all of the basics in ensuring that, all of us are rooting _for_ Winter, never against her.

I don't know how to solve the problem with legislation or with AKC policy. I'm not sure you can. I do know that it's important to vote with your money.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I personally feel that it is impossible to stop so-called backyard breeders from breeding without regulations put in place. If a farmer, a neighbor, a family member wants to breed a dog, and they have another available to breed with, they will probably do so. (Do note that I am reserving comment as to if this is right or wrong, I'm just stating that I believe the practice would continue). I think that the only way to stop this practice would be to put regulations in place where perhaps the AKC issues a temporary AKC registration certificate, therefore the dogs could be shown/competed with, and withholds the final registration paperwork until either a) one can provide proof that all 4 clearances have been completed or b) proof is provided that the dog has been spayed/neutered. When you attempt to register a dog, ACK could mail you two handouts: one on the benefits of spaying/neutering, and one on the 4 clearances and where to go to get them. I agree that one can learn about clearances online quickly, but only if one knows to go looking for the information.


There are breeders out there who don't care if the AKC won't give them/their litters registration. Or the AKC wouldn't register their intact dog. They breed anyway because people will buy from them. There are other registries out there that people use to get around the AKC. 

And temporary registration papers would be abused by those scammy breeders who are already trying to convince people that preliminary clearances are actual clearances or that a physical exam at the vet counts as a clearance. 

There are currently breeders who would hold registration until they receive proof that the dog has been spayed/neutered. I would not buy a dog from these people, mainly because they are essentially telling people that they can't do anything with their dogs until they are 24 months. I will not breed my dogs. I have a very low opinion of people who buy a dog, think it's _purty_ and decide they should become a breeder for a living and call it a hobby (while it's really a homebased business). 

The only way you stop the backyard breeders and the shortcut breeders and the scambreeders is by not buying their products. 

I don't care where people bought their current dogs from. That does not make you the defense system or excuse maker grand pumba for those breeders. Don't aid their scams.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> There are breeders out there who don't care if the AKC won't give them/their litters registration. Or the AKC wouldn't register their intact dog. They breed anyway because people will buy from them. There are other registries out there that people use to get around the AKC.
> 
> And temporary registration papers would be abused by those scammy breeders who are already trying to convince people that preliminary clearances are actual clearances or that a physical exam at the vet counts as a clearance.
> 
> ...


The reality is as long as it's legal people will continue to purchase from all types of breeders. I can see how the pompous attitude, prices and ridiculous contracts of some reputable breeders will turn prospective buyers off. But more than anything I believe the majority of people purchase puppies for family pets and could care less about showing, competing, etc. and are happy with their purchase. In the end there is more demand for puppies than reputable breeders of any kind of dog. So people can yell and scream all they want but to what end????????


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

About mentoring.....it is quite easy to find a mentor if you first become involved in the world of Golden Retrievers as a student of the breed rather than as a breeder. I think almost all reputable breeders began as students, that what a mentoring relationship is all about, learning what to do before you do it.

When I got Selli,it was with the possibility of breeding her (only if she passed all her clearances, got advanced performance titles and got a CCA). I had a number of breeders who would have mentored me that I met through being involved with the local Golden and training community. It also helped that Selli was a local dog who came from lines that these people bred. But long before I got Selli, I KNEW about all four clearances needed and I had bookmarked the GRCA website for more information. 

Winter is lovely and the perfect dog, just as Selli is lovely and the perfect dog. Our beef is with breeders who do not do everything possible to ensure the pups they produce will live healthy, happy lives.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> The reality is as long as it's legal people will continue to purchase from all types of breeders. I can see how the pompous attitude, prices and ridiculous contracts of some reputable breeders will turn prospective buyers off. But more than anything I believe the majority of people purchase puppies for family pets and could care less about showing, competing, etc. and are happy with their purchase. In the end there is more demand for puppies than reputable breeders of any kind of dog. So people can yell and scream all they want but to what end????????


That's your prerogative, then fine. But don't whine and complain about goldens in rescue situations (placed in bad homes) or in shelters (puppies that didn't sell). By supporting bad breeders, you support what they cause.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> That's your prerogative, than fine. But don't whine and complain about goldens in rescue situations (placed in bad homes) or in shelters (puppies that didn't sell). By supporting bad breeders, you support what they cause.


What does this have to do with my post? I was just putting the reality out there. I never said I supported "bad" breeders lol! And FWIW I don't whine either. I know I can't save dogs from bad owners regardless of where they came from. So it would be fruitless for me to whine.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think the more educating we do, the less support these breeders get. I don't think we can wipe out the problem, but by spreading education about how to get dogs who'll live long, happy lives, we may make an impact on the number of dogs brought into the world with bad odds and the number of dogs given up to shelters. That's worth it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I never said I supported "bad" breeders.


I got that impression from all your posts on this thread and the other thread. 

Yes, it's a lot easier getting a cheap puppy from somebody who just takes your money and waves bye-bye, but if there is nobody screening puppy buyers and weeding out would be breeders and would be abusers and would be dumpers and would be bad homes for those puppies, then that's why we have so many bad stories out there. 

There are a lot of nice people who are bybs, but if they aren't selective in where they place puppies, then they are adding to the problems in the breed. And it's heartless how easily they hand puppies over to strangers without a second thought.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I think the more educating we do, the less support these breeders get. I don't think we can wipe out the problem, but by spreading education about how to get dogs who'll live long, happy lives, we may make an impact on the number of dogs brought into the world with bad odds and the number of dogs given up to shelters. That's worth it.


Nothing wrong with educating, however it's been out there for years to be had. The problem is in reality people "buy" or are "given" dogs from all types of breedings who have never had health problems. Heck my next door neighbors 2 mutts lived til 16 living in their backyard being feed the cheapest food possible. Never went for walks, exercise etc. That is reality.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Nothing wrong with educating, however it's been out there for years to be had. The problem is in reality people "buy" or are "given" dogs from all types of breedings who have never had health problems. Heck my next door neighbors 2 mutts lived til 16 living in their backyard being feed the cheapest food possible. Never went for walks, exercise etc. That is reality.


Reality is that you can get lucky. It doesn't mean you ignore your odds.

And new people every year come to this board asking these questions, and many of them get educated. I think that's a good thing. If even one person skips a BYB or a pet store dog, they get a dog with a far, far better chance at a long, healthy life.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> I got that impression from all your posts on this thread and the other thread.
> 
> Yes, it's a lot easier getting a cheap puppy from somebody who just takes your money and waves bye-bye, but if there is nobody screening puppy buyers and weeding out would be breeders and would be abusers and would be dumpers and would be bad homes for those puppies, then that's why we have so many bad stories out there.
> 
> There are a lot of nice people who are bybs, but if they aren't selective in where they place puppies, then they are adding to the problems in the breed. And it's heartless how easily they hand puppies over to strangers without a second thought.


 
And when people come to a reputable breeder or rescue who have been turned down where else to they have to go?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Reality is that you can get lucky. It doesn't mean you ignore your odds.
> 
> And new people every year come to this board asking these questions, and many of them get educated. I think that's a good thing. If even one person skips a BYB or a pet store dog, they get a dog with a far, far better chance at a long, healthy life.


Lot's of people "get lucky" that is the problem for reputable breeder IMHO.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I think it would be tough to figure out since we don't know if our pets have eye, elbow, hip or heart problems that we aren't aware of. They could very well and we might never know unless thoroughly checked out. I peronally am not interested in going to that much trouble to prove a point.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> I think it would be tough to figure out since we don't know if our pets have eye, elbow, hip or heart problems that we aren't aware of. They could very well and we might never know unless thoroughly checked out. I peronally am not interested in going to that much trouble to prove a point.


 
Yeah. If you don't look for it, it's not there...


It's not about proving a point. It's a about breeding healthier, more sound dogs. And, as a pet owner, especially one who got their dog from a source that did not do health clearances on the dogs they bred, it can be about knowing that there is a hereditary health problem BEFORE it becomes debilitating or life threatening/shortening, and managing it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Heck my next door neighbors 2 mutts lived til 16 living in their backyard being feed the cheapest food possible. Never went for walks, exercise etc. That is reality.


By the same token, I have two neighbors who bought goldens from the same byb litter. 

The female lived for 17 years. Was never walked. Never had much done with her other than being a family pet.

Her brother died when he was 4 from cancer. 

If you are trying to talk yourself into buying a dog from a byb, are you using the example of the female who lived 17 years, or her brother who only lived 4 years?

Or would you rather by from a breeder who has fairly good consistency with her litters. Who generally can tell you that all their dogs will reach their old years (9+) at least? 

This is off topic, but I'm always banging my head when dealing with those crazy anti-purebred people who would tell you that mixed breeds are healthier than purebreeds and win in every category. They are talking about mixed breeds. Which can be anything.

If you have a beagle mix - heck yeah, it better live at least 15 years! Same thing with any small to medium sized breed dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And when people come to a reputable breeder or rescue who have been turned down where else to they have to go?


You go with the best breeder you can. 

I know what you are saying and we went through the same thing when we were looking for our first dog. 

There are good breeders who _will_ work with families... 

And there are good rescues who _will_ work with families. 

Our Arthur came from a rescue who didn't even blink when told there was no fence, our other dog was intact and we would be bringing home a puppy who would be left intact, and there was a little girl younger than 7. And the breeder who sold us Jacks worked with us as well. And furthermore, I know plenty of breeders who are even more respectful and BETTER than Jacks' breeder who work with families - if they can get the families to meet them halfway.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Lot's of people "get lucky" that is the problem for reputable breeder IMHO.


I just don't get your point. I understand that people make illogical choices, and that's a problem, but it seems like you're saying it doesn't really matter, since it all comes down to luck. What's your view here?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Megora said:


> You go with the best breeder you can.
> 
> I know what you are saying and we went through the same thing when we were looking for our first dog.
> 
> ...


But people get discouraged and the average joe blow family pet owners is not going to travel miles and miles to another rescue or breeder in order to get a dog. That's just reality. I was discouranged with only 2 rescues in our vicinity. After that I was done with with rescues.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

People get lucky with poor choices every day. Drinking and driving, drugs, speeding..... Doesn't mean people should support those choices.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> But people get discouraged and the average joe blow family pet owners is not going to travel miles and miles to another rescue or breeder in order to get a dog. That's just reality. I was discouranged with only 2 rescues in our vicinity. After that I was done with with rescues.


Well... :

I guess I don't know what to say to that? 

We drive miles and miles and miles to get a Christmas tree every year, so when we got our first golden we didn't really think twice about driving almost 2 hours to get him. A golden puppy is just as special as a Christmas tree. IMO. 

Our Sammy came from a breeder 4 hours away.

Danny was 2 hours away.

Arthie was an hour away.

Jacks was the shortest distance at 30 miles away. 

We also go to dog class every week which is close to 40 miles away. 

We are Michiganders though. We live in our cars.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Lot's of people "get lucky" that is the problem for reputable breeder IMHO.


If you touch a cold stove and it doesn't burn you, you will touch it again. If you touch it, and it is hot, chances are, unless you aren't too bright, you won't touch a hot stove again. 

Same with puppies from BYB. If you get a great, healthy dog from a BYB, or you know someone who has gotten one, then chances are you may do it again because you don't believe that the odds are against you.

I don't think that people getting lucky is a problem for reputable breeders. Most of them don't have enough dogs to meet the demand. People getting "lucky" may be a big problem for the breed with more and more of those dogs ending up in shelters and rescues.

This question is for breeders. Have most of the families that come to you, looking for a puppy, already had a bad experience with a BYB? If I had to guess, the answer would be yes. Once bitten, twice shy. 

I have found that after getting burned by a BYB, most people end up educating themselves and going to a reputable breeder for their next dog. 

To those of you who have been "lucky". I am very happy for you and I wish you and your dogs a long and healthy life. 

To the reputable breeders out there. I hope that you never stop doing what you do to educate the public about the importance of clearances and healthy dogs. Some people are listening and I applaud you.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldhaven said:


> If you touch a cold stove and it doesn't burn you, you will touch it again. If you touch it, and it is hot, chances are, unless you aren't too bright, you won't touch a hot stove again.
> 
> Same with puppies from BYB. If you get a great, healthy dog from a BYB, or you know someone who has gotten one, then chances are you may do it again because you don't believe that the odds are against you.
> 
> ...


Yes! But as long as there are "many other" breeders out there where people can get their puppies _who are happy with their purchase_ will continue to be a problem for reputable breeders. That is reality. Does it make it right? No. But that is reality.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I don't think we'll ever get to the point where the only puppies born are those where the sire and dam had all the health clearances, temperament was considered, and the parents actively compete in some form. I do think the percentage is increasing though.

But let's hypothetically consider that possibility for a moment - that the only puppies available would be from reputable breeders of the highest standard as outlined by many posters here. 

What are the chances that a family of modest means could purchase such a dog at prices beginning at $700; that they wouldn't be told what they had to feed the dog; that they would have some choice of which dog in the litter they could purchase; that they could find this purebred puppy within a couple hours drive or less; that if unfortunate life circumstances occurred they could give the dog to a trusted relative or friend and not be required to take it back to the breeder; and so on.

I think more people, if educated about the importance of health clearances, would go to such a breeder if they felt there were some with a little more freedom and latitude regarding the contract and the whole approach.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> What are the chances that a family of modest means could purchase such a dog at prices beginning at $700; that they wouldn't be told what they had to feed the dog; that they would have some choice of which dog in the litter they could purchase;.


We did it. Several times. 

My one sister was in college and working part time and my other sister was working as a temp while doing part time college. They pooled funds together twice to bring home nice dogs. 

And I purchased Jacksipants (900 buckaroos) on my own and took on the training ($400-900 a year), vet bills ($250 - $500 average per year), and dog food ($100-200 per year). On my own. While also paying board, making car payments, paying car insurance, paying board for my horse. <- I'm not rich. I budget and don't spend money on other stuff.

When you have people who have two seperate incomes from both partners working full time well-paying jobs, who can afford to buy ridiculously expensive cars (seriously, $40K for a truck you will only keep for 5 years?), go on pointlessly expensive vacations, go out to eat several times a week, and whatever else they do... if they can't spend $1500 on a dog, while they spend twice that much on a TV?

Having pick of the litter is overrated. I remember when I visited Jacks' breeder, that I barely looked at the puppies. I couldn't tell them apart. They were a blur of wriggling fussing white alien things who wanted their Mom to stop soaking in the love from me and come back to FEED them.  The first time I saw Jacks apart from his littermates was when I went to pick him up, and knew I loved him. And I think he was the same way. He was all ecstatic puppy wiggles.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Megora said:


> Well... :
> 
> I guess I don't know what to say to that?
> 
> ...


You are getting closer and closer each time though!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

It isn't a matter of income as much as it is a matter of effort, education and priorities. Many BYB do charge as much as reputable breeders and pet stores charge more.

I hope people that if people knew that you reduce your chances of having an unhealthy dog by going to a breeder that does all their clearances they would do so.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

a problem for responsible breeders???? 

Its not a problem for responsible breeders at all... it isn't a competition nor is it a business for the responsible breeder... The reality is that I have a waiting list for my puppies... I don't have to hustle for puppy people. Not a problem for me at all

you know who its a problem for ??

The BREED, It is a problem for GOLDEN RETRIEVERS, it is a problem for the dogs, the breed that you profess to love.... 

Its a problem for the puppy with hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, the puppy who dies from SAS, or who has pigmentary uveitis... thats who it is a problem for ... NOT ME


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If a breeder seems annoying and controlling in insisting about what puppies should eat, when they should be neutered, etc., it might be wise to see that behavior for what it really is: deep, obsessive caring about the dogs.

Yes, it's irritating when a breeder is insistent on something you don't agree with, but even when I think a breeder is totally wrong, I'm incredibly happy that the breeder cares that much. If there's something that you and your breeder simply can't compromise on, then that's not the breeder for you. But the fact that the breeder is annoyingly controlling is part and parcel of what makes that person a good breeder. I don't think you can separate the two.

You simply won't get somebody who does absolutely everything right in matching, breeding, whelping, and raising dogs who then washes her hands of the whole thing when the pup leaves her home. 

So yeah, people are always going to want to pay less and do whatever they want with dogs. They don't realize that paying a low price up front can mean paying a lot more in the long run. They want carte blanche do do whatever they want with their pup, but they don't realize that if a breeder doesn't care enough to try to educate puppy buyers on good health and training practices, the breeder doesn't care enough, period. Yes, some overreach with their contracts and try to get you to sign to things that can't hold up legally. Yes, that can be irritating. But it's absolutely the sign of somebody who feels a lifelong responsibility for every animal she produces. That's what you want, and the irritation is a very, very small price for what you're getting in return.

Just because people want a low price up front and no involvement from their breeder is no reason that we should support that kind of choice. People want healthy, even-tempered, long-lived dogs more than anything else, and the difference in purchase prices between a $300 carte blanche dog out of a cardboard box and a $1300 contract dog out of a world-class breeding program is peanuts compared to the dice roll you make on vet bills in the long run.

Regardless of the price, I would never, never encourage anybody to buy a dog from somebody who'll give you a puppy in exchange for a check with no questions or only a minimal interest in the dog after he leaves. If your breeder doesn't dot all the i's and cross all the t's, chances are you're buying a far more expensive dog than you think. And, more importantly, chances are you're gambling on an unnecessarily high risk of suffering down the road for an animal who didn't make any of the bad choices but pays most of the price for them.

And just to hammer home the question asked by the OP: the clearances are the bare minimum step breeders take to load the dice. The investment of a few hundred dollars up front pays for itself ten times over if it makes even one less puppy in the litter have to go through DJD surgery, and the research numbers are completely clear. Clearances mean that fewer dogs suffer, and they pay for themselves. There is no tenably ethical position that makes clearances optional.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Selli-Belle said:


> It isn't a matter of income as much as it is a matter of effort, education and priorities. Many BYB do charge as much as reputable breeders and pet stores charge more.
> 
> I hope people that if people knew that you reduce your chances of having an unhealthy dog by going to a breeder that does all their clearances they would do so.


 
Unfortunately, I think there are some forum members that think clearances are nonsense. That it does not prove anything. I think they HONESTLY believe that it does not matter where their dog comes from. That their BYB dog is going to be just as healthy as reputable bred dog.

It is sad. They do not see it. 

I will say it again...I WILL ALWAYS stand behind someone who is fighting FOR the breed NOT against it.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Megora said:


> Well... :
> 
> I guess I don't know what to say to that?
> 
> ...


yep. I am an average Joe or Josephine  And traveled 10 hours to get mine. But, yes reality is that most people probably would not do this. Why? Because I think that some people are not educated about the breed as a whole.

But, there is no excuse for people that are educated. I think this forum is great to TRY and educate or Re-educate.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I think if someone thinks its 'odd' or 'weird' to travel to get a puppy then I don't even know what to think. Joey was almost 2 hours away.. If we hadn't have moved closer just before getting him he would have been 5 hours away. When I was searching GSD breeders I was looking into the states (well over 8 hours) and I was looking at other canadian breeders.. some on the opposite side of the country!! So to just go with a dog because it lives closer is ridicules.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kfayard said:


> yep. I am an average Joe or Josephine  And traveled 10 hours to get mine. *But, yes reality is that most people probably would not do this. Why? Because I think that some people are not educated about the breed as a whole.*
> 
> But, there is no excuse for people that are educated. I think this forum is great to TRY and educate or Re-educate.


You are kidding right? Because someone won't drive 10 hours to purchase a dog is because they are uneducated in regards to a breed of dogs?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kfayard said:


> Unfortunately,* I think there are some forum members that think clearances are nonsense.* That it does not prove anything. I think they HONESTLY believe that it does not matter where their dog comes from. That their BYB dog is going to be just as healthy as reputable bred dog.
> 
> It is sad. They do not see it.
> 
> I will say it again...I WILL ALWAYS stand behind someone who is fighting FOR the breed NOT against it.


Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone has said that on this thread.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone has said that on this thread.


 
One does not have to come out and blantenly say it! It is just what statements suggest. And who said I was talking about this thread?? It was a a general statement.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You are kidding right? Because someone won't drive 10 hours to purchase a dog is because they are uneducated in regards to a breed of dogs?


 
No one on here....unless I missed it....suggested that you had to 10 hours to get a reputable bred dog! 

I was making my own statement about how far I drove because YOU said people do not drive to get pups! Well I guess I am not one of those people.

If there is one closer...that is fantastic. It was meaning that some golden owners make impulse buys on goldens and want a puppy now. No matter where the pup is or comes from. The distance has nothing to do with it.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

It is important to do the right thing in life, no matter what. Many times the right thing is not the easiest thing. In fact, that usually seems to be the case. 

When statistics show us in black and white that you can breed dogs whose chances of developing hip dysphasia or elbow dysphasia are cut in half, then it is just plain wrong to breed dogs any other way. Just plain wrong, inhumane and cruel for the dogs whose suffering didn't have to happen. Nothing changes this fact. This forum has to stand on principles and educate people or it doesn't do everything possible to better the golden retriever breed. 

No amount of justifying will ever convince me that because someone wasn't willing to wait for a longer period of time, wasn't willing to make sacrifices to save money or wasn't willing to put extra effort to drive a longer distance - that these things ever make breeding below the standards set by the GRCA acceptable or understandable. There just is no excuse. It might explain why someone behaves a certain way, but it does not make it right. 

My hope that people will do what is right may seem pie in the sky to some, but I will not ever give up pushing for people to do what's right (no matter ehat the subject it) just because there are some who will always take the easier way out.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kfayard said:


> No one on here....unless I missed it....*suggested that you had to 10 hours to get a reputable bred dog! *
> 
> I was making my own statement about how far I drove because YOU said people do not drive to get pups! Well I guess I am not one of those people.
> 
> If there is one closer...that is fantastic. It was meaning that some golden owners make impulse buys on goldens and want a puppy now. No matter where the pup is or comes from. The distance has nothing to do with it.


I never said you or anyone else did. Let's try this again. Please look at your quote below:



kfayard said:


> yep. I am an average Joe or Josephine  And traveled 10 hours to get mine.* But, yes reality is that most people probably would not do this. Why? Because I think that some people are not educated about the breed as a whole.*
> 
> But, there is no excuse for people that are educated. I think this forum is great to TRY and educate or Re-educate.


See the highlighted part? It says that most people probably would not do this. And you answered the reason why by saying because some people are not educated about the breed as a whole. Your words not mine. Which is why I said you are kidding right?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I never said you or anyone else did. Let's try this again. Please look at your quote below:
> 
> 
> 
> See the highlighted part? It says that most people probably would not do this. And you answered the reason why by saying because some people are not educated about the breed as a whole. Your words not mine. Which is why I said you are kidding right?


That is not what I meant  But, yes I can see how the way I typed that, that it might imply that. My.apologies...but that is not what i meant!!! As i explained previously.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

nolefan said:


> It is important to do the right thing in life, no matter what. * Many times the right thing is not the easiest thing.* In fact, that usually seems to be the case.
> 
> When statistics show us in black and white that you can breed dogs whose chances of developing hip dysphasia or elbow dysphasia are cut in half, then it is just plain wrong to breed dogs any other way. Just plain wrong, inhumane and cruel for the dogs whose suffering didn't have to happen. Nothing changes this fact. This forum has to stand on principles and educate people or it doesn't do everything possible to better the golden retriever breed.
> 
> ...


One of my favorite quotes that I used to tell my kids, "the right thing isn't always easy, and the easy thing isn't always right." Now, I hear them telling it to their children.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Jamm said:


> I think if someone thinks its 'odd' or 'weird' to travel to get a puppy then I don't even know what to think. Joey was almost 2 hours away.. If we hadn't have moved closer just before getting him he would have been 5 hours away. When I was searching GSD breeders I was looking into the states (well over 8 hours) and I was looking at other canadian breeders.. some on the opposite side of the country!! So to just go with a dog because it lives closer is ridicules.


I am looking into breeders now but won't be getting another golden for at least 2 years unless I find Mr Wonderful before then . My pet sitters/parents and brother say "No more dogs" :yuck: I work 7p-7a so pet walkers & doggy day care are out.  I have a decent list and am adding a new one every few weeks or so. They are all over the US- I would drive/fly to get mine if it was a right fit. I don't plan to look into Canada too much trouble. I prefer red heads so the breeders I am looking into have reds but also are reputable breeders who do all recommended clearances plus extras as well as compete with ther dogs whether in confirmation, ability, field, etc.


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## mindy10*bridget (Aug 6, 2017)

I do breed golden retrievers. Although my dam is not clearenced the sire is and so were both of tbe parents of my female. However I have tried to get a new puppy that is of OFA parents and I have not been able to add to kennel. The ones I have found refuse to give full registration for their puppies . Or the sire wants 2 to 3 thousand for a stud fee. One wanted a thousand but no guarantee set in place. So that puts me in a delemia to add any females. The female I have is 5 and this was her last litter


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Maybe the fact you were willing to breed a uncleared female makes reputable breeders not want to deal with you. Any reason you didn't get clearances? Are you active in any venue with your dogs? Are you active in any GR groups in your area? or are your pups simply a source of income? Put in the work and maybe the breeders will see your effort to improve the pups you produce vs. income and they will be willing to help you out. MHO


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

mindy10*bridget said:


> The female I have is 5 and this was her last litter


There is nothing that would stop you from doing them now. Though not ideal, you at least would know what you had been breeding and if you keep/kept a daughter out of her, you would have a puppy from OFA health certified parents. 

You are right though most responsible breeders will not be willing to sell to you. 

If you are interested in competing and are willing to put in the work/money it takes, you *might* be able to get what you are looking for. If you want better dogs, you need to be very upfront about what your program has been so far and be open to a co-ownership. A co-ownerhip will very likely involves limited registration until specific goals like health certifications and titles (like a CDX and/or CCA). Co-ownerships may also have restrictions on what males you would be allowed to use. 

You certainly do have an uphill climb as you have a track record that to be honest is most responsible breeders worst case. Can you make it out? Maybe. It has been done before but it is not easy or quick.

Good luck.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

mindy10*bridget said:


> I do breed golden retrievers. Although my dam is not clearenced the sire is and so were both of tbe parents of my female. However I have tried to get a new puppy that is of OFA parents and I have not been able to add to kennel. The ones I have found refuse to give full registration for their puppies . Or the sire wants 2 to 3 thousand for a stud fee. One wanted a thousand but no guarantee set in place. So that puts me in a delemia to add any females. The female I have is 5 and this was her last litter


Your girl should have clearances. You know that, and still have not done them. That's never ever going to get you another breedable girl unless you go to CL or some other breeder like yourself. 
Add to kennel- what does that mean? Do you imagine you can have a bunch of girls out in a kennel being bred and anyone respectable is going to take you seriously? Why do you imagine anyone would sell you a puppy on full registration? 
You should go get her clearances asap- and send it all in to OFA. You owe that to the people who have given you money for her puppies. And you owe it to the girls you've kept from her. 
You should also go get a title on your girl because you need involvement in the sport of dogs to learn about dogs and conformation and AKC past the point of just sending in a registration application. Otherwise, you will have to either deceive or continue down this dead end road you are on now. 
As a stud dog owner, my boys' contracts state that their offspring MUST be sold on limited registration. MUST. And I follow up on that, and I know where every single puppy they sire is- who owns them, their contact info, etc , and I would never allow them to produce a litter from a bitch with no clearances. No reputable person would. Not only that, I require all the clearances be on OFA as well- I am not going to be party to the 'I have it, anyone who wants to see it can ask for it' when OFA charges so little to verify eyes and heart and list them. If you can't afford that, you can't afford to raise puppies well. 
Stud fees- they're less than the price of a puppy. When a stud dog owner has spent thousands titling their dog, why should they cover your girl for a pittance? Again, though, no reputable stud dog owner is going to breed to your bitch- you offer them nothing in return for lending you their dog's pedigree to use as a sales tact. You get more than sperm when you contract with a stud dog owner. Breeding dogs is way more than just throwing any two dogs of the same breed in the yard and whelping puppies. If you want to do a good job of it, give it some years of work and study, and involvement. Then maybe you can find someone who will trust you with their hard work in the form of their pedigree. Every set of initials that signify a title cost money, time, and heart. A puppy from a titled, clearanced bitch has thousands of dollars behind it before the litter is ever bred- so asking a breeder to let you take that probably multi-generational work and just breed it- well, that's unlikely to happen. You've done nothing to earn that yourself- so you are not entitled to it. Someone said earlier in this thread, easy things are rarely right, and this is a case of just that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Welcome back Robin<:


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