# Observations from my obedience class thru local retriever club



## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

In November, I joined our local Hunting Retriever Club in order to hopefully gain some training partners/access to land and obviously learn from experienced people. Every year in January they hold an indoor obedience class at the kennel club (which I'm also a member of and train at regularly). The class started this last Saturday.

As I'm sure all of you are aware each group of dog owners has a different style. I find it really interesting to see the different approaches to training in pet owners, kennel club members (conformation, obedience, agility), and field people. Pet owners usually just want to train their dog to have some manners, and aren't the best at reading appropriate dog behavior. The people I train with at the kennel club usually have a good understanding of how dogs learn and are generally pretty experienced and are split between positive and balanced trainers. Now the field people I trained with on Saturday are a whole other group and included several subgroups. 

From my observations, there were several very experienced trainers (one I've taken a class from before, he has several GRHRCH labs). They have high expectations but they know what their dogs are capable of. They didn't use treats but did offer plenty of praise. At one point he was wrestling with his dog on the ground, just playing with his 5 month old puppy. These are the people I'm there to learn from. 

There were several people that think they are experienced trainers but really don't seem to understand the basics of learning theory. These were the people that that didn't offer treats and barely said "good dog" once throughout the class. They expect the dog to obey or the dog gets nicked or whacked with their heeling stick. My perception is that they view their dog as a tool only. One guy really made me mad, he had a gorgeous 5 month old black lab that was behaving like a normal puppy. This guy totally lost his patience with the dog and was expecting perfection. He got super rough with the puppy at one point, took all my willpower not to say something. This is the group that gives field training a bad name.

And lastly, there are those that are pretty new and just want to train their hunting dog. These are the "pet parents" of field work, I don't mean that in a negative fashion at all either! 

I found it very interesting that probably only a quarter of us brought treats to an obedience class. Is that frowned upon or something? I get not using treats out in the field, the bumper or duck is the reward in that situation. But why wouldn't you use treats in obedience training? It really seemed like the dogs were not being set up to succeed. Especially since its a super high distraction environment that the dogs likely aren't used to? Also, there were lots of people using prong collars with horrible placement. How do people that know how to correctly fit an e-collar not know how to properly fit a prong? It really baffled me, some of the puppies had them on and they were worn as loose as a necklace! 

I'd love to hear others thoughts on the different people/styles you observe in field training, are you observations consistent with mine or different?


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Oh and it is definitely dominated by men! I was one of three women in the class and all three of us had non-labs lol! One had a Toller, one had a Boykin, and I had my Conformation-line Golden


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Good for you to go with the attitude of learning from different people. I'm sure you can pick up a lot from the veterans. I'm sorry to hear that you're also having to suffer through watching people do things so backasswards that it is stupidity bordering on abuse. That can take a lot of the fun right out of it. Is the instructor not taking charge at all? I get the idea that things may be different there as far as methods but it seems like there's no excuse for having prong collars on incorrectly. I hope you practice a lot with your treats and blow them out of the water with your progress


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Some field people (that I've seen) can be more old-style in training their dogs than you will find at obedience training clubs.... 

And when I say "old style" I mean literally it's the type of "breaking it in" training that I've seen people do with both their horses and their dogs. 

South Dakota (where you are) seems very far off the beaten trail from a lot of the obedience hot regions like MI, IL, OH, etc... so it might be that you have to take classes at a place like that. 

I wouldn't. I would look around and be open to going further out rather than train anywhere around people hitting their dogs. 

To be honest, I would never recommend obedience training to anyone if it were exactly what you describe. Nothing is worth doing if it means hurting your dog or purely bossing the dogs around and MAKING them do stuff to please you. 

Obedience is a companion or team sport to me.

The team is you and your dog. 

Whether you use treats or not, you should be using kindness and love when interacting with the dog. That dog should not be cowing from your touch. He should be bumping your hand and leaning in and loving being with you. This is the type of thing you should be able to get while pursuing competition obedience titles with your dog.

Most of the obedience clubs around here are dominated by women. The same chicks are crossing over and doing field work too.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

nolefan said:


> Good for you to go with the attitude of learning from different people. I'm sure you can pick up a lot from the veterans. I'm sorry to hear that you're also having to suffer through watching people do things so backasswards that it is stupidity bordering on abuse. That can take a lot of the fun right out of it. Is the instructor not taking charge at all? I get the idea that things may be different there as far as methods but it seems like there's no excuse for having prong collars on incorrectly. I hope you practice a lot with your treats and blow them out of the water with your progress


Its interesting, that's for sure. The instructor doesn't really address items like that. Its not a typical class, its more just an opportunity for a bunch of members of the club to get together and train in a semi-organized manner. I'm friends with one of the instructors and he had to get on a couple people about keeping their dog leashed, instead of just relying on the e-collar. 

We actually played the recall game at the end of class, where you and another owner put your dog at one end and you walk to the other, then when they say "call your dog" the first dog that gets to its owner wins and goes to the next round. Now my big, fluffy, and super happy golden made it to the third round (there were only four rounds). So I'll definitely continue to use my methods, because I have a happy, well-adjusted confident dog that strives to please.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

I'm definitely limited in my options, I will just have to lead by example and show how much progress can be made my way. I actually don't need much help in the obedience side of things as I have a separate group I train with on that, my kennel club friends. It's really getting access to the right land and equipment that I need, which I think I'll be able to get if I network with the right people in this group.



Megora said:


> He should be bumping your hand and leaning in and loving being with you.


This exactly describes the relationship I strive for with my dogs!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

myluckypenny said:


> .... Now my big, fluffy, and super happy golden made it to the third round (there were only four rounds). So I'll definitely continue to use my methods, because I have a happy, well-adjusted confident dog that strives to please.


Good for you  Keep up the good work - maybe you can encourage bringing someone in to teach a seminar about how dogs learn and the idea of doing foundation obedience with some newer ideas. I've watched a few different foundation dvd's from different names in field training and not seen one that wasn't starting dogs out with positive reinforcement, certainly no one was manhandling or whaling on dogs with heeling sticks.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

I'm really hoping it was just first class issues. The first of any class is usually chaos so hopefully it will be better going forward. Either way, I did get lots of ideas on things to train with Fisher. Our biggest area of improvement is working on heeling and steadiness, especially when a bumper is thrown for another dog. He about looses his mind when he sees one, he wants to go get it so bad haha, so that's an easy thing to work on throughout the week. Apparently I've done a decent job of building his momentum 

"if you train a young dog for momentum precision will arrive. If you train for precision demanding perfection momentum will depart" ~ Rex Carr


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> From my observations, there were several very experienced trainers (one I've taken a class from before, he has several GRHRCH labs). They have high expectations but they know what their dogs are capable of. They didn't use treats but did offer plenty of praise. At one point he was wrestling with his dog on the ground, just playing with his 5 month old puppy. These are the people I'm there to learn from.


Ask this guy if you have questions, he gets it. While he may not have a pocket full of bribes with him (treats), He knows he has to have "something in it for the dog" to be successful in the long term. 

Keep in mind in a Club format, the skill levels of the people in attendance will be all over the map. Many of the people you encountered were as new to training as you are. More than likely some had absolutely no experience of any kind, yet tried to pretend they did. They are new and trying to emulate those they see around them. Some people will be very experienced others will be green as grass. Goals and expectations will also vary from handler to handler. 

Bring an open mind and you should learn a great deal. (Both what to do and what not to do.)


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Swampcollie said:


> Ask this guy if you have questions, he gets it. While he may not have a pocket full of bribes with him (treats), He knows he has to have "something in it for the dog" to be successful in the long term.


That's exactly what I plan to do!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

it doesn't sound like I would waste my time training Ob with these people if you are already in an OB group. Can you do that and still be able to train the field/hunt portion of things? 

Here's the deal. I don't know why anyone would be like that with a five month puppy for sure but field dogs are bred a bit differently than conformation dogs and then again each one of those dogs is different in personality and would need individual training. I used to think that the only way to train was very motivational with treats and all that jazz while I was training my conformation golden retrievers. Then I got a field bred golden and now I have a field bred lab. These dogs get too "high" on a constant level of positive reinforcement and treats. Especially my lab. Here is what I found which surprised me. While they are young I do a lot of happy motivational training but after a few months (like 4) I started realizing they were so excited to train with me and do any type of work (since they are bred to work so much) that when I said anything other than a flat good dog they couldn't even concentrate at the task at hand. Bring food into the picture and they couldn't focus at all! It was just too much stimulation for those particular dos. After observing this I waited on any "big" positive reeinforcement until the whole thing was over. My most recent dog, who is just ten months old, did SO MUCH better without any stimulation from me except a simple good. And she is a complete lover of OB and field training and a complete joy to work with but give her too much and she loses her mind.

The point I'm trying to make is (and from what you are describing these people didn't sound so great) don't judge a trainer based on how fun and motivational you think they should be. Each dog needs a different style. My two older conformation goldens really hated to train and I had to work really, really hard to motivate them. Ob they would do for constant treats but stop the treats and it was a pain, they didn't work for free. Hunt training was hooting and hollering and telling them good dog 24/7 because they hated to pick up ducks and they were so slow. I honestly thought at the time that is how you trained all dogs to be a good trainer. Now I realize that is how you train SOME dogs. 

And one last thing. Hunt test training and field dog training are completely different games. Not many people understand that. Ive had people think a derby is the equivalent of a junior hunt test! Some people will say they are field training their dogs while in actuality they are training for hunt tests. It really is misleading when they say that. There is such a HUGE difference. Field training takes a lot of precision and a lot of constant training. I'm not saying this to devalue hunt test training because it also can be demanding but it is just not the same. Often times dogs that couldn't handle field training move on to hunt and do just fine with the shorter distances and less precision around the guns and so forth. And this isn't about pressure. It takes a special kind of trainer that can train a field competitor and do it with only treats and rainbows. I have yet to see one personally but I know they probably exist. It would be hard to run out and give a dog a treat at 400 yards or a big raw raw session at the end and the dog gets so jazzed up he goes nuts returning the bird. 

I couldn't pass judgement on a single person you trained with based on what you described though it does sound like they were unnessarliy rough. I would need to see the dog, the people, and the venue they were training for before I could pass judgement on their techniques.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

I had similar experiences with the local hunt test crew. The general attitude was that the dogs were going to take over the world so there was no choice but to show them who was boss at all times. The dogs were always trying to get one over on ya don't you know? It's like people think dogs are inherently evil or something and the fact that they made a mistake or just don't quite understand never dawned on them. A dog makes a mistake? He's flipping you the paw -- burn him. A dog whines in the blind? Hit it with a whiffle bat. A dog is pulling? Tell it to heel 20 times before you get REALLY mad and lay on the e-collar button until he gives a good scream. Dog won't sit? Hit it and then when it lays down afraid and submissive, pull it back up by the ear into sit position. One guy's dog failed a hunt test and he took it back to the car and punched it. He got turned into AKC and fined and he keeps the letter framed in his house. He's so proud of it; I've heard the story twice. Don't get me wrong, there were a few good eggs, but these experiences were enough to turn me off of field work (we do agility now instead). I get pretty heated about this stuff! While I am a +R trainer, if someone is fair and has good timing and is training their dog the way the dog needs to be trained, excellent! But the egos have really just got to go! I did a drop in obedience class with my old trainer who agreed to let me do my thing and I kid you not, the same dogs were in the class working on the same problems...three years later! And one woman in the class was so mean to her dog, her dog -- a 9 month old puppy -- would run to other people and hide under chairs and cower so the woman put a prong collar on her. I never went back.


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

In over 30 years of training gun dogs I have never used treats. I am the guy in the example that wrestles with the dog and offers up loads of praise. A big problem I see out there is that most dog owners and trainers are in a hurry and not patient. Be patient, offer lots of praise for those desired actions and firm correction for those actions that a dog has learned but chose to disobey. Make sure your dog has mastered one thing before moving on to the next. When you screw up, back up and spend a bit more time fixing it.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Sweese said:


> In over 30 years of training gun dogs I have never used treats. I am the guy in the example that wrestles with the dog and offers up loads of praise. A big problem I see out there is that most dog owners and trainers are in a hurry and not patient. Be patient, offer lots of praise for those desired actions and firm correction for those actions that a dog has learned but chose to disobey. Make sure your dog has mastered one thing before moving on to the next. When you screw up, back up and spend a bit more time fixing it.


First of all, I love that picture. I definitely don't have an issue with not using treats, it just seemed like it that particular environment it may have been useful since it was sooo high distraction (there were 19 dogs in a training center). I think you really hit the nail on the head on the patience, there were several that simply lost all patience and that's when things deteriorated.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Here's the deal. I don't know why anyone would be like that with a five month puppy for sure but field dogs are bred a bit differently than conformation dogs and then again each one of those dogs is different in personality and would need individual training.


You makes some excellent points and that's why I posted, because I wanted to get some other perspectives. My conformation boy is actually my second golden, my first is field lines (she's 2.5 yrs old). I love seeing the differences in them. My field girl is super toy motivated, tug and fetch are the best things in the world to her, she's a spitfire. Now my boy thinks food trumps all (besides birds). They are both super easy to train, and have a ton of enthusiasm, but my girl is actually more of a thinker/independent and has energy for days! She's my nosework/tracking dog and she's amazing at it, my SAR friends think I could certify her easily. Surprisingly though, my conformation boy is way more into birds than she is. That could definitely be because he was introduced at the young age and she wasn't (as I know her littermate is nuts for birds). I get each dog is different and the training should vary for each.

Also, I know the difference between field trials/hunt tests and I think only 2 of the people in that group do field trials, and they would be the first group I described.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

FosterGolden said:


> The general attitude was that the dogs were going to take over the world so there was no choice but to show them who was boss at all times. The dogs were always trying to get one over on ya don't you know? It's like people think dogs are inherently evil or something and the fact that they made a mistake or just don't quite understand never dawned on them. A dog makes a mistake? He's flipping you the paw -- burn him. A dog whines in the blind? Hit it with a whiffle bat. A dog is pulling? Tell it to heel 20 times before you get REALLY mad and lay on the e-collar button until he gives a good scream. Dog won't sit? Hit it and then when it lays down afraid and submissive, pull it back up by the ear into sit position.


YES! This is the attitude of the middle group I described. Just seemed like a lot of ego in some of those people. I think they were in the minority, but they definitely can give the whole group a bad name.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

myluckypenny said:


> YES! This is the attitude of the middle group I described. Just seemed like a lot of ego in some of those people. I think they were in the minority, but they definitely can give the whole group a bad name.



There is a certain group of people that think dogs are made to be broken, dominance, etc. and to be fair, many of these people reached their goals with these dogs many times over, so they have received positive reinforcement from their actions and, like our dogs, when they have been rewarded for something they will continue to do it. You see all kinds of training techniques from "pure positive" (not really sure exactly what that is, but trying to illustrate one extreme) all the way to people being very unfair and downright bullying their dogs, and then everything in between, and many of these dogs are successful in regards to titles. Dogs are amazing creatures who are forgiving, resilient and often learn in spite of us and not because of us.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The steps and sequence in training a Field Dog is the same no matter whether you're training a dog for Trial, Hunt Test or Hunting. The big difference is in the owner or handlers needs, goals and expectations. This is further complicated by the ability to learn by each individual dog and or handler. 

I see this variability every single week during the club training season with various club members. The needs and expectations of those seeking to run in the Open are usually very different from those people who simply want a dog to flush a pheasant and retrieve a single shot bird. 

Different goals for different people. Some have no intention whatsoever to teach and train a handling dog. This varies greatly from those wanting to run Hunt Tests or Field Trials. The basic gun dog owner has a hard time seeing the need to invest the time and effort required to teach a handling dog while the Test or Trial owner can't see having a dog that doesn't have those skills (trained abilities).


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

FosterGolden said:


> There is a certain group of people that think dogs are made to be broken, dominance, etc. and to be fair, many of these people reached their goals with these dogs many times over, so they have received positive reinforcement from their actions and, like our dogs, when they have been rewarded for something they will continue to do it. You see all kinds of training techniques from "pure positive" (not really sure exactly what that is, but trying to illustrate one extreme) all the way to people being very unfair and downright bullying their dogs, and then everything in between, and many of these dogs are successful in regards to titles. Dogs are amazing creatures who are forgiving, resilient and often learn in spite of us and not because of us.


There are some less than stellar owners/trainers around, that is true.

But don't forget Field Work is a JOB. While performing that role the dog is not a pet, it is an employee. There is work to be done and the dog is expected to do it, to the best level it has been trained. That's why the dog is there.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Swampcollie said:


> There are some less than stellar owners/trainers around, that is true.
> 
> But don't forget Field Work is a JOB. While performing that role the dog is not a pet, it is an employee. There is work to be done and the dog is expected to do it, to the best level it has been trained. That's why the dog is there.


I think that perspective depends on the person. For instance, I'm doing field work because my dog loves it and its fun to train as its what the dog was initially bred for. The first priority for me is a love of training/spending time with my dog. This has had a side effect of me wanting to start hunting, something I never had an interest in before. For some people its the opposite (I would say a majority of the hunting people), they got the dog to help them achieve that first passion of hunting in a more efficient manner. My perspective/priority is slightly different so I would anticipate my training methods to vary slightly.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Some comments on training based upon my own experience.

1. I quit my training group for 6 weeks just to address an obedience issue I had. My method was not what the drag and nag crowd was using.
2. Everyone at a training session/obedience class feels he is the final word on dog training.
3. I once saw a man at a training session place his dog next to a truck with dogs just to make him bark. As the dog barked he beat the dog. That is ignorance at its fullest. His attitude was once he beat the dog enough it would quiet down.
4. In my former training group the leader professed to be an expert. Newbies of course bought into this. Group leader is not a good trainer but has now "taught" several people to train hunt test dogs. The culture is perpetuated.
5. If you are new to any training group the assumption is that you know nothing. Then when you do something different that seems to confirm their suspicions.
6. What works for one dog may not work for another.
7. Several training styles exist.
8. Best response to someone's unwanted advice/criticism is "Thank you but I am already working with someone on this".
9. I keep an open mind---I can learn from anyone but I will judge what is best for my dog.

I follow these basic rules: TRAIN SMART and DO NO HARM.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I agree with swampcollie on the dog is an employee in their venue. A dog that won't sit (the simplest thing in the world) is often being a jerk. I'm not going to say hey boo boo come on boy plllleeeese sit for me please please please. Come on now, I give my dog the best life ever. He is KING in this household, sleeps on the bed every night and is adored and pet on 24/7 by everyone. If he can't sit when I tell him to sit I'm not going to feel badly for getting on his butt. And I certainly won't give him a treat every time he sits either.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I agree with swampcollie on the dog is an employee in their venue. A dog that won't sit (the simplest thing in the world) is often being a jerk. I'm not going to say hey boo boo come on boy plllleeeese sit for me please please please. Come on now, I give my dog the best life ever. He is KING in this household, sleeps on the bed every night and is adored and pet on 24/7 by everyone. If he can't sit when I tell him to sit I'm not going to feel badly for getting on his butt. And I certainly won't give him a treat every time he sits either.


There's a difference between expecting and TELLING the dog to do something and expecting obedience (assuming there isn't something physical going on).

In obedience, if a dog has slow sits or refuses to sit - it could mean he's sore. A lot of dogs who do both field and obedience come back to obedience after a field weekend very sore. It's why people will rest the dogs in cases like that, but some dogs do need adjustments before they pull back together again.

Other thing is not using treats and making the dogs do something vs asking/begging/bribing = is OK by me. At a certain point, you do have to lay down the law and make the dog do something if he's avoiding it or goofing around.

That's not the same thing as what some people do where they are very hard and rough with the dogs. It's yanking the dogs off their feet, it's throwing them, is throttling them, it's beating them, it's turning up collars extra high to zap them, and other things designed to break the dogs so they are super geared to obey with fear/pain avoidance being a huge motivating factor to work harder. That's the kind of stuff I have a problem with. And I'm somebody who is very middle ground and believes in balanced training. I'm not positive fluff.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Megora said:


> That's not the same thing as what some people do where they are very hard and rough with the dogs. It's yanking the dogs off their feet, it's throwing them, is throttling them, it's beating them, it's turning up collars extra high to zap them, and other things designed to break the dogs so they are super geared to obey with fear/pain avoidance being a huge motivating factor to work harder. That's the kind of stuff I have a problem with. And I'm somebody who is very middle ground and believes in balanced training. I'm not positive fluff.



Ask any pro out there, if you treat a field golden like that...you will get bit. Goldens don't play.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Ask any pro out there, if you treat a field golden like that...you will get bit. Goldens don't play.


OOHH ain't that the truth. 

If you're being fair, Goldens will accept a lot of pressure and bounce right back with a wagging tail. If you're being unfair and apply inappropriate pressure, be ready to have holes put in you.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

gdgli said:


> Some comments on training based upon my own experience.
> 
> 1. I quit my training group for 6 weeks just to address an obedience issue I had. My method was not what the drag and nag crowd was using.
> 2. Everyone at a training session/obedience class feels he is the final word on dog training.
> ...


What a great list, thanks! That last quote will be one I remember!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

"I do it because the dog loves it"
"He was bred to do it" (usually about a conformation dog)
"Spending time with my dog"

All things said in pursuit of Junior 
God love it -- we've ALL been there -- that first Junior dog -- and it was a TON OF FUN
I wish I were that naively enthusiastic about field work again

Anywhere you go where a broad spectrum of people are training their dogs, regardless of the venue, you're going to have a range of terrific to terrible.
Just last week I did drop-in obedience run throughs. I was agog at how terrible some of these people were. From mean to their dog to just totally clueless. Oh well. I'm there to train my dog, not to critique them. Take what's valuable for you and leave the rest.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I agree with swampcollie on the dog is an employee in their venue. A dog that won't sit (the simplest thing in the world) is often being a jerk. I'm not going to say hey boo boo come on boy plllleeeese sit for me please please please. Come on now, I give my dog the best life ever. He is KING in this household, sleeps on the bed every night and is adored and pet on 24/7 by everyone. If he can't sit when I tell him to sit I'm not going to feel badly for getting on his butt. And I certainly won't give him a treat every time he sits either.


Oh I have no issues with expecting a dog to obey once he knows the command, and I'm not a purely positive trainer (if such a thing exists). My difference in training style from the group was with how they were training a dog to LEARN a command, mainly those that had puppies in the group. I prefer to reward a dog when in the learning stage (so he knows when he is doing the right thing), then when I feel I have generalized the behavior enough I use start rewarding on a less predictable schedule until eventually we get to the point where he can perform multiple exercises in a row and only be rewarded at the end. But I'll keep him guessing 

Again that is just my preference and what works for my dog, I merely stated my observations from the group. I'm not going to go into the class and tell people how to train their dog, that is definitely not my place. I just wanted to hear if other people experienced the same things I did when they first went to club trainings and it sounds like the answer is yes.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

K9-Design said:


> "I do it because the dog loves it"
> "He was bred to do it" (usually about a conformation dog)
> "Spending time with my dog"
> 
> ...


Although this reads kind of vaguely insulting and condescending, it's true. I'm not in this to do field trials, I don't have the right dog for that. I got this dog for obedience and conformation, but just happened to take a fun detour into field work. I won't apologize for being a newbie.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

No need to apologize, and it wasn't an insult, seriously I wish I could stay in that phase forever. You don't know what you don't know and anything your dog does is pretty great. It's how I felt with my first Junior dog. Once you start learning all the pitfalls, it's all downhill from there 
You will learn more about dog training as you advance in field work than in any other venue. 
Everyone has to start somewhere! 
Just this year I bought a motorcycle and taught myself to ride, having never even been on or near one before. I'm apologetically naive and embrace my newbie-ness to it. It's liberating to try something new and realize you may not be great at it for a long time to come.
Seriously, the people you spoke of sound like total yahoos, and yes, you do run into that all the time in field work, mainly the lower levels. Fact of the matter is, 99% of the yahoos have field bred labradors. Labs are great. They are so gung ho and biddable, you can be the WORLD'S WORST TRAINER and commit sins that would completely F up any other dog, that lab shakes it off and comes back for more. They're incredibly resilient. You don't have to be careful, you don't even have to be good. BIG margin of error. That is not to say all lab trainers are like this, of course not, and the top echelon of field trainers have labs that are amazing, truly finesse trained animals with an incredible amount of detail and precision put into their training. But that's why they rose to the top....they are good trainers regardless of the breed or sport. If those same people had bought a border collie way back in the day, they'd probably be at a herding trial winning at the top level there, too.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

I don't see my dogs as my employees, I see them as my teammates. Works for us.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

So last night I was thinking about this thread and came to the following realization, it really comes down to who is enjoying the process. I was having fun with my dog, the other newbies were having fun with their dog, the good trainers were having fun with their dog, the middle group looked miserable and their dogs looked miserable. This is what I think makes field work different from other dog sports. If someone is miserable doing agility, they tend to stop working at it. That's not true for hunters, they still want that hunting dog. 

One thing I did get from this thread is the differences in labs and goldens and what they will put up with. It sounds like goldens know when a person is being super unfair and will let them know. This actually reminds me of my horse days. I grew up training Arabian horses in an area that is mainly Quarter horses. With Arabians you had to train smart, because those horses tend to be smarter than a good number of people. Most people really didn't have the patience for that, especially the old school cowboys. This seems like a similar situation, which I find fascinating. Just the random musings I had last night


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Classes are for training the handlers, not the dogs. 

That being said, you can take a class from a very knowledgeable trainer and get nothing out of the class because the trainer doesn't know how to connect with handlers in class.

Best way to learn, videotape yourself. Then watch it and see if you can tell what you did wrong. *It's you, not the dog.* 

Hardest thing for me to learn is timing.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Alaska7133 said:


> Classes are for training the handlers, not the dogs.
> 
> That being said, you can take a class from a very knowledgeable trainer and get nothing out of the class because the trainer doesn't know how to connect with handlers in class.
> 
> ...


Great advice! I've already started videotaping my training sessions and it helps so much.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

myluckypenny said:


> One thing I did get from this thread is the differences in labs and goldens and what they will put up with. It sounds like goldens know when a person is being super unfair and will let them know. This actually reminds me of my horse days. I grew up training Arabian horses in an area that is mainly Quarter horses. With Arabians you had to train smart, because those horses tend to be smarter than a good number of people. Most people really didn't have the patience for that, especially the old school cowboys. This seems like a similar situation, which I find fascinating. Just the random musings I had last night


That's why its soooo important to find a trainer that really knows how to teach the dog first without pressure. One that teaches very black and white seems to be the most effective with goldens I've found. Then gradually moves on to making this the standard and then (most importantly with goldens) holds the dog to that standard 24/7....I cannot empasize enough what opportunists golden retrievers are. They can count how many times they can get away with something before pressure. That is why you have to have a trainer that does not baby them in my humble opinion. (and this isn't a criticism as that is one of the reasons I love this breed, lol)

On the flip side to this, I've loved how intelligent my dog is. He picks up on concepts quickly. He is able to think on his feet out in the field. And as long as he knows that he can't get away with something he is really easy to train and rarely does things that he knows to be wrong ie sit, go back to an old fall, no go, ect. While he is learning concepts he doesn't get into trouble for the things he does wrong. But if I slip up once on those things he knows are no matter what rules he starts to play me like a fiddle. 

Of course this is all my personal observations watching goldens and labs train, not a generalization on all goldens or all labs. IN fact those very successful labs have the intelligent trait mj7


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> On the flip side to this, I've loved how intelligent my dog is. He picks up on concepts quickly. He is able to think on his feet out in the field. And as long as he knows that he can't get away with something he is really easy to train and rarely does things that he knows to be wrong ie sit, go back to an old fall, no go, ect. While he is learning concepts he doesn't get into trouble for the things he does wrong. But if I slip up once on those things he knows are no matter what rules he starts to play me like a fiddle.


This is part of the reason that I'm not doing field work with my field girl (she's also gun-shy). She sounds a lot like yours, only she's had two years of getting away with too much and playing the system. I'd have a lot of bad habits to undo! So instead I turned her to a sport where she gets to be the expert and lead me around (tracking & nosework) :grin2: I do use her as my guinea pig though for trying new field training (in this beginner phase), that way I get my handler errors out of the way!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I cannot empasize enough what opportunists golden retrievers are. They can count how many times they can get away with something before pressure. That is why you have to have a trainer that does not baby them in my humble opinion. (and this isn't a criticism as that is one of the reasons I love this breed, lol)


I own that dog. Her name is Lucy... She is collar smart and smarter than me. She knows the difference between training and testing. And she knows when I am able to make a correction or not. They are just so **** smart. Same in the obedience ring... Independent contractors some of them are! Which is good for some dog sports, and not so good in others.... Is there a way to track that in pedigrees? You know a little flag that says, known for being independent contractors and smarty pants... Wouldn't that be nice.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

myluckypenny said:


> So last night I was thinking about this thread and came to the following realization, it really comes down to who is enjoying the process. I was having fun with my dog, the other newbies were having fun with their dog, the good trainers were having fun with their dog, the middle group looked miserable and their dogs looked miserable. This is what I think makes field work different from other dog sports. If someone is miserable doing agility, they tend to stop working at it. That's not true for hunters, they still want that hunting dog.
> 
> One thing I did get from this thread is the differences in labs and goldens and what they will put up with. It sounds like goldens know when a person is being super unfair and will let them know. This actually reminds me of my horse days. I grew up training Arabian horses in an area that is mainly Quarter horses. With Arabians you had to train smart, because those horses tend to be smarter than a good number of people. Most people really didn't have the patience for that, especially the old school cowboys. This seems like a similar situation, which I find fascinating. Just the random musings I had last night



I have a Lab that does not fit this analogy. Train the dog in front of you, not the breed.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

FosterGolden said:


> I have a Lab that does not fit this analogy. Train the dog in front of you, not the breed.


Its a generalization, I obviously don't think every lab is the same. Just like every golden isn't the same.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> I own that dog. Her name is Lucy... *She is collar smart and smarter than me. She knows the difference between training and testing.* And she knows when I am able to make a correction or not. They are just so **** smart. Same in the obedience ring... Independent contractors some of them are! Which is good for some dog sports, and not so good in others.... Is there a way to track that in pedigrees? You know a little flag that says, known for being independent contractors and smarty pants... Wouldn't that be nice.


Have you been able to conquer that? Shala also knows the difference between training and testing - and/or is collar wise. She can do a WCX test in training (includes land and water blind in Canada, plus land and water doubles) - and we have done several mock tests in training, waiting in blinds, judges on the line, everything. But we can't make it past the land series in a test situation anymore. Any advice is welcome. 

(Sorry for the thread hijack)


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'll PM you.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

We had our second class today and it was a lot better. I'm pretty sure a lot of the issues last week were simply first class problems, they are always the worst since the dogs are so jacked. There are still a few people that really shouldn't have a dog, but I'm learning a lot from everyone else. 

We did one exercise where we are all in a big circle and one dog/owner weaves in and out of the people until they get around the circle back to their spot. Fisher did great at ignoring the other dog when they were weaving but when it was our turn to weave, he would rile up the other dogs because he got the wiggle butt showing he wanted to play. He's funny because he looks like an adult but is still very much a puppy haha. Its really a great environment for teaching the dogs they need to focus even in high distraction places. 

I also got several comments on what a great-looking dog he is, which is always fun (especially from lab people)


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Being at home and up at night with a sick dog I have had time to re-watch the Lardy tapes. In the epilogue on the Total Retriever Training Lardy makes some very good comments after relating stories of great field trial dogs, Topbrass Cotton being one of them. He makes it clear that those stories were not stories of high performance dogs that were intimidated and were performing due to coercive training procedures. He even quotes a lady stating - "A dog does not retrieve for me, she can only retrieve with me, it is a mentor relationship". He goes on to state that a trusted counselor will treat a dog with respect, monitor their needs and health, never correct in anger or with malice.... 

Many amateurs should take a couple hours and watch or re-watch those tapes. 

With that said, I rarely use treats, in the beginning with a puppy, yes but afterwards that turns into praise and play and then later in the field, the retrieve itself becomes the reward. With time they become sophisticated enough to know when they did a good job and that in itself is a reward.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

This thread is pretty fun to read 1.5 years later! Like @k9design said I was firmly in the newbie bliss stage. And @MillionsofPeaches was right on the mark with how manipulative these goldens can be if you let them. As I'm getting ready to get my first well bred field puppy this weekend, I just want to say thanks to all those that take the time to educate newbies! Some of us do listen and take what you are saying seriously! 

Also, those people I met in that first class are now some of my best friends. Its so true that we all start somewhere! Also that guy that had a meltdown with his 5 month puppy, is pretty much the nicest guy ever. He just had a bad day, that dog just got 2nd in a derby last weekend.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

wow this is interesting to read again! I went back and read the whole thread. I'm glad you are enjoying yourself in your group and are doing so well!! What have you learned during all of this?


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> wow this is interesting to read again! I went back and read the whole thread. I'm glad you are enjoying yourself in your group and are doing so well!! What have you learned during all of this?


Haha right, that's the fun part of this forum. Getting to go back and see what you were thinking in the past. 

As for what I've learned - Every dog is different and every trainer is different and while I may not use all suggestions, I can learn something from everybody. Indoor obedience classes for this club are really not to get instruction, but are more geared towards working your dog in a high distraction environment. I've learned who to take advice from in the club and who to listen to but maybe not implement without a 2nd opinion lol. I'm also very selective on who I will offer advice to because most of these guys don't want to hear it from the chick with the fluffy. 

I used to be really guilty of not holding my dog to a high enough standard and pushing him to the next level. Although I feel like I have two different dogs, a summer dog and a winter dog. Winter version of Fisher is medium drive, and all about retrieving. Summer version of Fisher is low drive and is just hot and doesn't want to work (He has so much hair so I can't blame him). If I try a hard set up on a hot day it can turn really unproductive and spiral very quickly so I need to be smart about what I train and when for this dog. He also does best with days off and only training 3 days a week. I've managed to get Fisher 3 started passes in HRC and am training for seasoned now (starting swim by). 

I'm still a newbie, but I'm a newbie that has access to right resources now! Also this is definitely the best sport and I'm hooked for life :grin2:


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

So I’m curious, knowing what you know now, what will you do differently with your next puppy?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I like Stacey's question!! It sounds like you are so much more knowledgable and in a comfortable spot in your training career. That's the best feeling! To have solid ground to stand on when you are trying to learn to train a dog. it will be great to hear about your new pup's adventures!


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Alaska7133 said:


> So I’m curious, knowing what you know now, what will you do differently with your next puppy?


A lot will depend on the puppy itself. One thing I wish I would have done differently with Fisher is be a little less strict on obedience. I think had I let him be a wild man when retrieving it would have benefited in the long run. However, I don't think I'll have that problem with this puppy, but we will see. 

Other than that, just making sure the puppy has a lot of structure in his routine. My current two were bought with really just being a pet first and foremost. This is my first dog I've purchased with the intention of competing to a high level. 

I just want to be much more intentional about my training program and have a plan on what I want to work on each time I train.


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