# Teaching thru Correction



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I don't think correction has any place in training until the dog absolutely knows what it is he is supposed to do. Teach before correct.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Any sort of field skills fall apart very quickly if you overface the dog then immediately correct. Most programs condition a correction/compulsion that later on is used in a field setting.
Maybe you can provide some specific examples for discussion.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Gotta say, I'm teaching through correction right now my little man. Lesson to be learned is "Dude, if you want to keep all the parts God gave you, you will not spend your day humping your brother"


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

what kind of corrections are we talking about because i feel every time you do anything with a dog that does not do what you want gets some form of correction might be a little bit louder verbal or a No as they get older might be a choke chain or a heeling stick and in the more advanced world collar corrections in the form of indirect pressure.

lets go to the basic sit even with a treat first time you raise the treat and command sit the dog does not sit what do you do you lightly push down on the dogs butt till it sits. that little push on the butt is a form of correction.


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

I love the idea of positive training and treat training but sometimes I just have to say no or correct somehow. I try my best to always have a toy to distract or trade with but sometimes I have to do things. You know? Like take a shower or get my coat on and I just don't have anything and if the little piranha decides my pants look good at that moment, I have to move her off and say no. I can't just let her eat my pants off of me. 

I'm just saying, there are times when I can't do the positive training thing. I say no or her name to distract her, and actually quite a lot at the moment, having a 4 month old, teething puppy. She is a bit of a stinker. A loveable, cute little stinker but a stinker. She likes to pester the other dogs and steal their toys. She hovers around them until they give up whatever chew they are chewing on. I don't think it's fair so I sternly call her name. She gets in moods where she wants to chase the cat and play with him, which I do not allow. So, I will say no or leave it. If I waited to get up and go over and trade her or distract her, these incidents would have escalated too far. I know a lot of people talk about positive training but from my experience, it's impossible. You can do it during planned training sessions but the rest of the time, the puppy is zooming around like a maniac and I'm lucky if I can catch her before she's torn up my shoe unless I am sternly saying "no" and "leave it" to interrupt her long enough to get to it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> what kind of corrections are we talking about because i feel every time you do anything with a dog that does not do what you want gets some form of correction might be a little bit louder verbal or a No as they get older might be a choke chain or a heeling stick and in the more advanced world collar corrections in the form of indirect pressure.
> 
> l*ets go to the basic sit even with a treat first time you raise the treat and command sit the dog does not sit what do you do you lightly push down on the dogs butt till it sits. that little push on the butt is a form of correction.*


Basics - So you push the dog's bottom to the floor. Is that after you made sure the dog actually knows the command? Is it after the dog just sat for the first time with a treat? Or do you repeat the sit teaching command until the dog knows what the command means? 

Middle - (this was a conversation of an FB forum - how one can build or destroy momentum). IMHO it is the many teaching building skills such as plenty of singles and yes many without a lot of factors, introducing the factors in a step by step ladder as opposed to resorting to correction on marks.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Basics - So you push the dog's bottom to the floor. Is that after you made sure the dog actually knows the command? Is it after the dog just sat for the first time with a treat? Or do you repeat the sit teaching command until the dog knows what the command means?


Well for me, I'm going to push the butt down whether I think the dog fully knows the command or not. Initially, a treat is at the dog's nose and I simultaneous scoop the rear in. Later progressions will include just me giving the command, hesitating for a second, and then going in for the push/scoop if the dog doesn't get in a sit before my hand reaches for him. A correction doesn't always have to be a bad thing, it is just making the dog right.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Everything you do in training should have value and add to the dog's repertoire of skills or further strengthen a skill you are developing. A skilled trainer evaluates every mark, setup, skill to see if it will benefit their dog, overface their dog, set their dog back, or only exercise the dog. Depending on the dog's level of experience, corrections are an important part of the dog's learning experience.

I do not ascribe to the "only correct when the dog knows the command." Well, that is a nice thought, but if the dog KNEW the command or task, he wouldn't have performed it incorrectly. A FAIR correction will help him understand and perform it correctly in the future. It creates a consequence for performing the task incorrectly. If the dog never gets this information he is always guessing. Dogs who guess or think they have choices often display a lack of commitment to the task, lack of confidence in their abilities, or lack of control thinking they run the show. Corrections can reduce this indecision and make the picture much more clearer for the dog. But this is where being a good trainer comes in : you are the one calling the shots and administering corrections. Are they fair? Are they concise? Did the dog understand? Is the dog's behavior improving? That is the art, not the science, of training.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Teaching thru correction is a hit or miss proposition at best.

A more successful approach is to *teach first*. Once a command is understood by the dog, corrections can be employed for a failure to respond (Refusals), or for a lack of effort (Slow Response), in performing commands the dog has already been thoroughly taught and understands. You always provide a reward (Praise, Pat on the Head, etc) when the dog performs the command correctly.

Applying pressure when the dog doesn't understand why, is counterproductive to achieving pleasing performance of commands.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

My thoughts, no pressure until the dog understands what you want, or how to get out of the pressure. 
A very successful trainer once said at his seminar, that at the end of each session evaluate what the dog did and how you could teach it better. I like that philosophy. 
I think it is very easy to forget that they are dogs and there is a huge communication gap so IMO you can't teach enough. Always break things down, simplify, or back up if needed. Far too often a dog is blamed for a failure when it is really a lack of education or poor communication.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Loisiana said:


> Well for me, I'm going to push the butt down whether I think the dog fully knows the command or not. Initially, a treat is at the dog's nose and I simultaneous scoop the rear in. Later progressions will include just me giving the command, hesitating for a second, and then going in for the push/scoop if the dog doesn't get in a sit before my hand reaches for him. A correction doesn't always have to be a bad thing, it is just making the dog right.


This is how i do it as well.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Wenderwoman said:


> I love the idea of positive training and treat training but sometimes I just have to say no or correct somehow. I try my best to always have a toy to distract or trade with but sometimes I have to do things. You know? Like take a shower or get my coat on and I just don't have anything and if the little piranha decides my pants look good at that moment, I have to move her off and say no. I can't just let her eat my pants off of me.
> 
> I'm just saying, there are times when I can't do the positive training thing. I say no or her name to distract her, and actually quite a lot at the moment, having a 4 month old, teething puppy. She is a bit of a stinker. A loveable, cute little stinker but a stinker. She likes to pester the other dogs and steal their toys. She hovers around them until they give up whatever chew they are chewing on. I don't think it's fair so I sternly call her name. She gets in moods where she wants to chase the cat and play with him, which I do not allow. So, I will say no or leave it. If I waited to get up and go over and trade her or distract her, these incidents would have escalated too far. I know a lot of people talk about positive training but from my experience, it's impossible. You can do it during planned training sessions but the rest of the time, the puppy is zooming around like a maniac and I'm lucky if I can catch her before she's torn up my shoe unless I am sternly saying "no" and "leave it" to interrupt her long enough to get to it.


Do not get me wrong. I am not an all positive method trainer. Correction is needed. My question is when to use correction! Do you introduce leave it command thru a correction or have you already taught that command ahead of time? 

I was in the same position with Belle and two older girls in the house and an outdoor cat. To avoid having to train thru correction I separated them at first, or just picked up the munchkin until I was sure I could control the situation based on the taught commands. Such as Belle is all over the floor with Rose. I have used the situation as proofing the already known commands. Such as come. Meaning the pup now needs to stop the play (hard to do) and come to a heel. Then wait for a "go play" to get back into it and as a reward. 

Even the word NO - while a correction the dog needs to know what it actually means.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Wenderwoman said:


> She likes to pester the other dogs and steal their toys. She hovers around them until they give up whatever chew they are chewing on. I don't think it's fair so I sternly call her name. She gets in moods where she wants to chase the cat and play with him, which I do not allow. So, I will say no or leave it. If I waited to get up and go over and trade her or distract her, these incidents would have escalated too far.


Part of positive training-- especially with puppies-- is prevention. The key is to create an environment to set the dog up for success. If the puppy is chasing the cat, then there needs to be either a space restriction for the puppy (ex-pen) or more places for the cat to escape. I agree that constant redirection, training, etc. is just not practical. 

The more times you call her name sternly, the more you will poison it-- so when she hears it, she is less likely to respond when you need her to . . .


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

TrailDogs said:


> My thoughts, no pressure until the dog understands what you want, or how to get out of the pressure.
> *A very successful trainer once said at his seminar, that at the end of each session evaluate what the dog did and how you could teach it better. *I like that philosophy.
> I think it is very easy to forget that they are dogs and there is a huge communication gap so IMO you can't teach enough. Always break things down, simplify, or back up if needed. *Far too often a dog is blamed for a failure when it is really a lack of education or poor communication.*


That - where is the AMEN button!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Anele said:


> Part of positive training-- especially with puppies-- is prevention. The key is to create an environment to set the dog up for success. If the puppy is chasing the cat, then there needs to be either a space restriction for the puppy (ex-pen) or more places for the cat to escape. I agree that constant redirection, training, etc. is just not practical.
> 
> The more times you call her name sternly, the more you will poison it-- so when she hears it, she is less likely to respond when you need her to . . .


Just hoping this will not turn into a positive vs correction training. 

The main scope of this thread is teach before correcting vs teaching thru correction in the field - - - - when to use correction, how to apply correction and how to teach before applying correction. 

Quick example - throwing a dog a mark that the dog cannot see, you cannot see the dog and when the dog obviously fails you correct the dog for the incorrect line taken. 

When you set up a training session or a test first things one has to take into consideration is visibility:

"Can the dog see the marks?

Can the handler see the dog?

Can the dog see the handler?"

If the answer is NO. Would a correction be appropriate or would help be appropriate?


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Claudia M said:


> Just hoping this will not turn into a positive vs correction training.
> 
> The main scope of this thread is teach before correcting vs teaching thru correction in the field - - - - when to use correction, how to apply correction and how to teach before applying correction.


The info I gave to the poster was only in reference to her particular situation with her puppy for issues indoors-- sorry for going OT. Too often people say a particular method doesn't work when they are simply using the method incorrectly.


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

Claudia M said:


> Do not get me wrong. I am not an all positive method trainer. Correction is needed. My question is when to use correction! Do you introduce leave it command thru a correction or have you already taught that command ahead of time?
> 
> I was in the same position with Belle and two older girls in the house and an outdoor cat. To avoid having to train thru correction I separated them at first, or just picked up the munchkin until I was sure I could control the situation based on the taught commands. Such as Belle is all over the floor with Rose. I have used the situation as proofing the already known commands. Such as come. Meaning the pup now needs to stop the play (hard to do) and come to a heel. Then wait for a "go play" to get back into it and as a reward.
> 
> Even the word NO - while a correction the dog needs to know what it actually means.


I do have daily training sessions. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to understand a command unless I've introduced them. I have actually put them into a down or sit position if they just aren't trying to do it and never get it. Most often, I can get them into position by moving the treats around. For instance, if you hold a treat in your fist and move your hand under their nose, they will follow your hand. If you continue to move the treat under their nose toward their chest, they will naturally lie down. Then you turn your hand over and treat them for lying down. I also like to train with both a verbal and a hand signal. So, I can tell my dogs to lie down with just a hand signal. To get them to sit, put the treat under their nose so they know you have it, then stand up, they will watch the treat, slowly move the treat up to your eyes and they will usually sit to keep an eye on it.

I think I just wanted to explain that within a training session, you have their attention and the time to use these positive exercises. If my dog is barreling down the hall at my cat, I can't do that so everything is more corrective than learning based. I have tried to get them to do some position on their own but you have to generally repeat it a million times and sometimes walk away without them ever getting it. "Off" as a command is really hard to do without moving them into position. My girl is constantly jumping on the edge of the couch. Just saying "off" isn't working very well yet so I repeat it a few times and then if she doesn't get down, I do move her down to the floor.

Basically, I think my answer is that I will move them into the correct position or guide them into position with the treat during a training session. Outside of that, I will use the command whenever I want them to do that particular thing even if they haven't learned it but they do not get a treat (or praise if I don't have one) unless they perform it. Sometimes they actually get it, if not, they just know they didn't do something and don't get a treat. When they do get it, I always make sure to say what I am treating/praising for. I don't really expect them to know it unless we've had enough successful attempts at it though. 

Sometimes my older dogs like to play along for treats and if they see I am training the puppy, the get in a row and perform them too. Especially my older Golden who is a pro. It's really silly. But they get treats too for doing the right thing. Maybe the little one can learn from them.

p.s. One last thing you can do is that if you are training to lie down and you notice they are just lying on their own. You can treat them or praise them wherever they are. Just always be sure to tell them what you are are treating/praising for. So it's a constant flow of information to them of what they are doing, really. I guess I am always telling her what she is doing and praising for when it is in the right place and time.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Anele said:


> The info I gave to the poster was only in reference to her particular situation with her puppy for issues indoors-- sorry for going OT. Too often people say a particular method doesn't work when they are simply using the method incorrectly.


No problem!  Just wanted to emphasize that I would sincerely not want to go into a positive only vs correction never ending saga!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

OPERANT MODEL

1. Don't feed your dog breakfast.
2. Get a favorite treat. Not sure? Cut up a hot dog, TINY PIECES.
3. Lift the treat above the dog's head. Nothing verbal.
4. No sit, no treat. If the dog is hungry he will discover what he must do to get the treat.
5. After a couple of days of this add the cue "sit".
6. After dog starts sitting reliably on the cue "sit", take it on the road. That is do this in an area with more distractions. This is commonly called proofing.
7. After this is proofed and the dog is sitting reliably you can assume it is learned. Like all behaviors, if you want a good response this must be tuned up from time to time, you need to maintain the good quick response.

Now is the time to use correction if you choose to. The dog knows the behavior that you want and if he doesn't sit, you correct, now it is a lack of effort.

My two cents.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

ok what do you do with a say a 7mo that is out of CC getting them some marks. you want to do some short 50-60yard down the shore marks. so throw the first bumper/bird dog wants to get out early you help the pup by throwing another bumper/bird to get them back on line, they do get back on line and pick up their bird. thumbs up dog stayed in the water so we repeat dog does the same thing wants to get out of the water early. what do you do? in this example dog and handler are on the edge of the water bumper/bird are just splashing at the end of the pond all we are asking the dog to do is swim to the end of the pond.

here is what i would do. dog has been shown to stay in the water. if they try to get out again, i would command no here and maybe some more no no verbally with no correction set the dog up and rethrow the mark. dog learns from being called back and swims and picks up its bird good. throw it again pup swims to the end of the pond picks up the bird. done with that set up for now might come back and run it in the opposite direction tomorrow or wait a few days and run it again. all we used was attrition to correct the dog.

so what happens if the dog doesnt respond to being called back and wants to get out early again? well i would then recall again but this time since the pup has been CC low level nicks enough for the dog to feel (and might be a little uncomfortable but defiantly not balls to wall screaming). reset and throw it again. pup took the correction and swam to the end of the pond. with that i would try it one more time just to see if they pup learned what i wanted it to do. so throw one time pups flies into the water and picks up his bird with no correction. done with that setup and moving onto the next.

correcting on marks with young dogs don't have to be hard or break down their confidence. but for the weekend trainer i don't have time to throw 100 marks to show and teach dog how to do things i might have 3hrs in the afternoon on sat and 2hrs sunday morning to train. i want to do as much as i can possibly do in that amount of time done. throwing one mark 100 to teach a dog doesnt cut it for me.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Wenderwoman said:


> I do have daily training sessions. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to understand a command unless I've introduced them. I have actually put them into a down or sit position if they just aren't trying to do it and never get it. Most often, I can get them into position by moving the treats around. For instance, if you hold a treat in your fist and move your hand under their nose, they will follow your hand. If you continue to move the treat under their nose toward their chest, they will naturally lie down. Then you turn your hand over and treat them for lying down. I also like to train with both a verbal and a hand signal. So, I can tell my dogs to lie down with just a hand signal. To get them to sit, put the treat under their nose so they know you have it, then stand up, they will watch the treat, slowly move the treat up to your eyes and they will usually sit to keep an eye on it.
> 
> I think I just wanted to explain that within a training session, you have their attention and the time to use these positive exercises. If my dog is barreling down the hall at my cat, I can't do that so everything is more corrective than learning based. I have tried to get them to do some position on their own but you have to generally repeat it a million times and sometimes walk away without them ever getting it. "Off" as a command is really hard to do without moving them into position. My girl is constantly jumping on the edge of the couch. Just saying "off" isn't working very well yet so I repeat it a few times and then if she doesn't get down, I do move her down to the floor.
> 
> ...


Many times a command is not followed because it was not proofed. IE moving from the house outdoor, adding distractions step by step. 

Example: When Belle chased the cat outside she responded quickly to the come command. But that was after I used it enough indoors, while playing with the other dogs inside, also while playing with the other dogs outside. I know it is proofed but I also know she has "selective hearing" so on the occasion she does not listen and I know she heard me just fine a correction is in place. 

When Rose chased the deer in the cow field, her come was not proofed. She did it in the house, outside, at the obedience training but really only in training mode sessions - so frankly she was expecting the command. I was proud of having her outside and being able to put her in a down from across the back yard. All that went out the window when she was in pursuit of that deer. Whoa, here, come, whistle sit... gone with the wind. The worst part was that I also had no way of correcting her so she got to enjoy chasing that deer all over the place and allow my husband the pleasure to sit and watch me run like a maniac over the hills. 

That is when I vowed "Never Again". Since then I have used every critter in the yard and over in the cow field once that the WHOA command was proofed.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I have a sensitive dog so a correction is my very last "weapon". (To be clear I am talking about field training.) I really do try everything I can to set her up for success so I don't have to correct. Molly may be miles ahead of how I approach concepts, but I find it more comfortable to play it safe. I remember when we were doing channel blinds, I was told to let her approach shore and nic her when she touches land, making land a hot spot. I think that would fall under the category of teaching using corrections, but to me that's really just "getting" the dog, and not really teaching. I never did that, and it has been a while since we have done channel blinds, but I would say I was pretty successful at doing it my way.

I was talking to this guy about channel blinds and he told me his pro had his dog right before a big hunt test and the dog was not consistently taking a straight line down a channel. So what his trainer did was CAST the dog TOWARDS shore, and then burned him when he got there. He thought it was funny that his dog said "hell no" to shore from then on and did a perfect channel blind the next day at the test. He was laughing as he told me this, and maybe I'm soft too, but I was horrified. The dog was punished for doing something he was told to do. Some people idolize their trainers and become so illusioned; it's sad.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

krazybronco2 said:


> ok what do you do with a say a 7mo that is out of CC getting them some marks. you want to do some short 50-60yard down the shore marks. so throw the first bumper/bird dog wants to get out early you help the pup by throwing another bumper/bird to get them back on line, they do get back on line and pick up their bird. thumbs up dog stayed in the water so we repeat dog does the same thing wants to get out of the water early. what do you do? in this example dog and handler are on the edge of the water bumper/bird are just splashing at the end of the pond all we are asking the dog to do is swim to the end of the pond.
> .


I would not be setting up cheating marks until the dog was through swim by and handled well in the water. I also wouldn't be using the collar to correct the dog in the water at that age. 

Same scenario, older dog that has been through swim by, I would handle to show the dog where it needed to be. Repeat the mark and if the dog still didn't get it I would simplify the mark, maybe make it shorter or work at a level where the dog could be successful and build on it. You are trying to teach the dog something it doesn't understand here. Cheating singles are part of the dogs foundation training in the field. Once the dog is fully schooled on this and knows to stay in the water I would then use a collar correction with a handle for a repeated infraction.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I have a sensitive dog so a correction is my very last "weapon". (To be clear I am talking about field training.) I really do try everything I can to set her up for success so I don't have to correct. Molly may be miles ahead of how I approach concepts, but I find it more comfortable to play it safe. I remember when we were doing channel blinds, I was told to let her approach shore and nic her when she touches land, making land a hot spot. I think that would fall under the category of teaching using corrections, but to me that's really just "getting" the dog, and not really teaching. I never did that, and it has been a while since we have done channel blinds, but I would say I was pretty successful at doing it my way.
> 
> I was talking to this guy about channel blinds and he told me his pro had his dog right before a big hunt test and the dog was not consistently taking a straight line down a channel. So what his trainer did was CAST the dog TOWARDS shore, and then burned him when he got there. He thought it was funny that his dog said "hell no" to shore from then on and did a perfect channel blind the next day at the test. He was laughing as he told me this, and maybe I'm soft too, but I was horrified. The dog was punished for doing something he was told to do. Some people idolize their trainers and become so illusioned; it's sad.


The worst thing is you also get a dog that will be too afraid to do anything. I once saw a dog who is a MH dog. The poor thing had to be de-conditioned. 

Once I saw a dog that tried to cheat on the way back. Got nicked. Dog was re-sent. Marked nicely, took a nice water line to the bird; got there and refused to pick up the bird because she remembered that on her way back with the duck in mouth she got nicked. 

When both Darcy and Belle tried to cheat on the way back I whistle stopped them. Walked from the line and heeled them to where they were supposed to enter the water. Walked back to the line and whistle called them in. At the moment I saw a deviation whistle stop again. If it did not sink in walk again to the other side of the shore. Pretty positive some eyes were rolling behind me.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

There will be exercises/situations when you will not correct while still teaching something.... and there are other exercises/situations where corrections are part of teaching. The shouldn't be absolutes....

I guess to give an example of each end...

Teaching articles - I don't use any corrections while teaching. Because aside from poisoning the exercise for a dog, there is also the situation that arises when a dog expects to be corrected when wrong and just plays guessing games (looking back at the owner with the "is this it?" look) until the owner tells him he's right. With articles - the dog needs to hunt for the right scent without feedback/help from the owner. So praise/cheerleading and corrections both can mess stuff up. 

Border Training is something that's totally opposite. The dogs must learn that there is an absolute rule that must never broken. In the case of my dogs, if their collars are off - they are not allowed to leave the property. When I'm border training a young dog (I start around 4-5 months) - my dogs will be mildly corrected about 10 feet from the property line.... and corrections become more pronounced when they get closer or over the property line. 

I believe corrections should be fair and designed for the situation and the specific dog... 

I also believe that people need to recognize that when stuff messes up and dogs become confused or anxious about being corrected. It's not the correction so much as handler error. It's up to the owner/handler to know what is too little, too much, and it up to them to get the timing and message right.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

My operant model is merely an example to show that there is more than one way to teach a simple behavior. Actually every dog already knows how to sit, we just train them to do so on cue.

I am not critical of any method of teaching/training a dog as long as it is successful, safe, and you still have a happy dog. I do not publicly say much about how I train. However I will say this---I do use some ideas that many field people find out of the mainstream. Just look at my teaching of sit. Also I did not use the phrase "teaching the command". 

Also I am not critical of the ecollar, I use one myself. I also force fetch and I do a collar fetch. My POV on this also differs from many others. My only comment on the ecollar is that many who own one do not know how to use it correctly.

I try not to teach by correction. I teach something, proof it, then drill it. Do I do "sit-nic-sit"? Yes, I do. But not before I have shown the dog how I want it done in the first place.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

gdgli said:


> My operant model is merely an example to show that there is more than one way to teach a simple behavior. Actually every dog already knows how to sit, we just train them to do so on cue.
> 
> I am not critical of any method of teaching/training a dog as long as it is successful, safe, and you still have a happy dog. I do not publicly say much about how I train. However I will say this---I do use some ideas that many field people find out of the mainstream. Just look at my teaching of sit. Also I did not use the phrase "teaching the command".
> 
> ...


there are more is more than one way to skin a cat and everyone thinks their way is better but seeing and hearing diff opinions might help someone try something new. also everyone has diff goals for their dogs. but i am of the mind set and might be my young age and competitive spirit but i want to train my dogs to the highest level i can achieve in the limited time i have to train. i may never have the next NFC or NAFC but it isn't because i didn't try, or at least become a student of the dog games.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

krazybronco

I believe that your dog will accumulate many field trial points. I wish you the best.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> ok what do you do with a say a 7mo that is out of CC getting them some marks. you want to do some short 50-60yard down the shore marks. so throw the first bumper/bird dog wants to get out early you help the pup by throwing another bumper/bird to get them back on line, they do get back on line and pick up their bird. thumbs up dog stayed in the water so we repeat dog does the same thing wants to get out of the water early. what do you do? in this example dog and handler are on the edge of the water bumper/bird are just splashing at the end of the pond all we are asking the dog to do is swim to the end of the pond.
> 
> here is what i would do. dog has been shown to stay in the water. if they try to get out again, i would command no here and maybe some more no no verbally with no correction set the dog up and rethrow the mark. dog learns from being called back and swims and picks up its bird good. throw it again pup swims to the end of the pond picks up the bird. done with that set up for now might come back and run it in the opposite direction tomorrow or wait a few days and run it again. all we used was attrition to correct the dog.
> 
> ...


I deleted couple times before I replied to this. Until I saw the last paragraph. It is not the dog's fault that you do not have time for it. That is IMHO torture (for the lack of another more PC word). Either make the time or enjoy the ribbons knowing that you tortured a dog in the process. I for one could not sleep at night or enjoy any accomplishments.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> /........
> Border Training is something that's totally opposite. The dogs must learn that there is an absolute rule that must never broken. In the case of my dogs, if their collars are off - they are not allowed to leave the property. When I'm border training a young dog (I start around 4-5 months) - my dogs will be mildly corrected about 10 feet from the property line.... and corrections become more pronounced when they get closer or over the property line...............


I assume you let the dogs outside by themselves therefore you have to rely on the in ground electric fence!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Claudia - no. Border training is done with a collar and leash on. The goal is to have dogs who might be outside without any leash or collar on and they stay on their property regardless of what is outside the property. My dogs only have collars and leashes put on when leaving our property.

We don't have invisible fencing - no love for the systems. Plus it'd mess my dogs' hair up having to wear the tight zap collars.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> @Claudia - no. Border training is done with a collar and leash on. The goal is to have dogs who might be outside without any leash or collar on and they stay on their property regardless of what is outside the property. My dogs only have collars and leashes put on when leaving our property.
> 
> We don't have invisible fencing - no love for the systems. Plus it'd mess my dogs' hair up having to wear the tight zap collars.


Now I am confused, you are advising other people to use the invisible fence for....... 
Or do you use an e-collar to zap your dogs when they try to leave your property? 

Reason I am confused is because I never had to do any "Border training" that way and I have a completely un-fenced yard.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> Now I am confused, you are advising other people to use....... .


Not advising anything, Claudia. Just saying there are definitely times where it works best to use corrections when teaching a dog something. Just as there are times when corrections when training may be counterproductive.

Border training is an example where if you want a dog who does not chase after deer or other dogs or anything without you calling them - you have to use corrections while training. 

There will always be other stuff where related to what you are teaching you don't want to front load corrections.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> Not advising anything, Claudia. Just saying there are definitely times where it works best to use corrections when teaching a dog something. Just as there are times when corrections when training may be counterproductive.
> 
> Border training is an example where if you want a dog who does not chase after deer or other dogs or anything without you calling them - you have to use corrections while training.
> 
> There will always be other stuff where related to what you are teaching you don't want to front load corrections.


But to be clear you have no experience with the so called "border training" but you use it as an example. If I wasn't clear in my example with the deer, no collar is needed once the whoa command has been proofed. Hence I learned from my mistake with Rose to apply in training Belle. You now say that you also did not use the "border training" as you used on your example. But you use it as an example of teaching thru correction.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Claudia, she trains her dogs to stay within the border of her property. Without the use of an electric fence


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Jodie, I get that. So if you can do it without "teaching thru correction" why would you use it as an example!!!!????


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia - I have no idea what you are talking about - particularly as you quoted me above where I expressly said I do correct my dogs when border training them. Not using ecollars doesn't mean there's no correction involved.

Unless the whole point of "using correction when training" IS all about using ecollars on dogs while teaching early field stuff and that's why you keep reverting back to that....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Jodie, I get that. So if you can do it without "teaching thru correction" why would you use it as an example!!!!????


????????

I think you are confused. Shes said she doesn't use an electrical fence. She did say she teaches them to stay within the border through corrections. Just not corrections that involve any kind of ecollar


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> There will be exercises/situations when you will not correct while still teaching something.... and there are other exercises/situations where corrections are part of teaching. The shouldn't be absolutes....
> 
> I guess to give an example of each end...
> 
> ...


There - bolded and underlined. "*if the collars are off*". So are they or are they not used? Can you *train* Border limits without the use of the collars? Or do you just jump in and start using the collars as a teaching correction without properly conditioning to it? 

Maybe some more explanation for the poor simple minds like me would be in place.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Megora


Serious question. How do you border train? This is new to me. I do not think my dogs would respect any border if the right kind of stimulus presented itself, for example a rabbit, any bird, a cat.

Also, how do the dogs treat the borders? Do they sneak over once in a while? Do they go right up to the border?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Just a regular collar, leather or nylon or whatever. Her dogs don't wear collars around the house, just when they leave the property.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Loisiana

OK, I get that. I am interested in technique. I can put it in my toolbox. Never can tell when someone might be able to use it.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

sorry, I was responding to Claudia. Your message popped up while I was typing


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Buckle collar and 6-10 foot leash to start. 

Having actual landmarks that the dog isn't allowed to go past helps. 








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With my guys the edge of the lawn is the property line in front. The tree line on the side of our driveway is the property line there. There's another tree line on the other side of the property and a drop off to the far back. 

With puppies, I'll walk this property line a few times every day on a loose lead and train "home" to them. They are pop-verbally corrected when they go near the line. Leash gets longer and looser and more distance between dog and me as the dogs learn.

There is a transition.... which depends on the dog. With Jacks it was a couple weeks of training. Bertie learned his border after a couple days. End result was having a dog who could run off leash and stay on the property.

The corrections after a dog "knows" the border and deliberately breaks the line are serious business compared to the corrections with a puppy who is just being taught the border. 

Dogs are not robots. There will always be them taking advantage in the absence of correction or sometimes stuff looks and smells different - even after they've been taught something. Which case, you brush up the training. <= My guys usually need a brush up in border training after it snows. I think it's because all their "markers" are different. 

In general though - I can tell you this much. I come home for lunch every day and go snooze on the lawn chair out back while my guys get outside time. Our neighbor's dog is on an e-fence and he and Bertie have their little bark-run-mark routine that they do. The dogs both know where their boundaries are between them and make no attempt to run across. The lab doesn't cross because he hears the warning sound or whatever with his collar. And Bert knows he doesn't cross the tree line. 

That's the basics of border training as I was taught 20+ years ago or so. Keeping it simple.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

OK Kate. When you said the collar is *off* - I assumed you were referring to e-collars and not buckle collar.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> I deleted couple times before I replied to this. Until I saw the last paragraph. It is not the dog's fault that you do not have time for it. That is IMHO torture (for the lack of another more PC word). Either make the time or enjoy the ribbons knowing that you tortured a dog in the process. I for one could not sleep at night or enjoy any accomplishments.


:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling: cry me a river! I sleep just fine a night or day (sometimes i work nights) and i do enjoy the ribbons my dogs have a achieved. and display them proudly with the first duck she ever picked up hunting. 










you can try and make me sound mean and cruel but i know how i train is not torture. if it was torture then why every time the e collar comes of the cradle belle is running to the garage door and bouncing. bodey he hasn't figured out the e collar means fun yet but he is <7mo. but put it on him and he doesn't care he doesn't tuck his tail and run in fear (and he was CCed to "here" at 4mo) his tail is wagging and happy and get him to the line and shaking like a leaf to go pick up a bird or bumper. and you can correct him for not coming back to you with a bird or bumper in his mouth because it was done right, but according to you that is torture.

I feel like this tread was brought up to try and throw some members of this forum under the bus, and not a have civilized debate or argument about training methods. i could be wrong and reading into things but you keep letting your dogs think life is nothing but unicorns and rainbow flavored ice cream. i will instill discipline and teach my dogs to be corrected and not buckle under that pressure.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> :bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling: cry me a river! I sleep just fine a night or day (sometimes i work nights) and i do enjoy the ribbons my dogs have a achieved. and display them proudly with the first duck she ever picked up hunting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting, my Belle found out that the collar was fun very early. And she was also CC-ed to here at 4 months but she knew here before she was cc-ed to it. Therefore I did not have to correct at 7 months for not coming to me with a bird or bumper. 

This thread has nothing to do with the ecollar or CC-ing a dog to the collar.

Is teaching and then correcting for refusal as opposed to throwing a dog above it's level and then correcting for not "getting it". I would personally not attempt down the shore marks with a dog not yet coming to heel with a duck or bumper. 
If the dog does not come back to the handler IMHO basic training was not done, maybe because of lack of time and rushed thru program?


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

gdgli said:


> I am not critical of any method of teaching/training a dog as long as it is successful, safe, and you still have a happy dog. I do not publicly say much about how I train. However I will say this---I do use some ideas that many field people find out of the mainstream. Just look at my teaching of sit. Also I did not use the phrase "teaching the command".
> 
> Also I am not critical of the ecollar, I use one myself. I also force fetch and I do a collar fetch. My POV on this also differs from many others. My only comment on the ecollar is that many who own one do not know how to use it correctly.
> 
> I try not to teach by correction. I teach something, proof it, then drill it. Do I do "sit-nic-sit"? Yes, I do. But not before I have shown the dog how I want it done in the first place.


So true, there are many ways to train a dog and we all have our own nuances even when following a traditional training program. My dogs are CC but not FF. I have never FF and contrary to popular opinion the sky has not fallen nor has it undermined the dogs work. They handle collar corrections just fine and they run just as hard on blinds as they do on marks. 
I am 100% with you on teach, proof, and drill.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

krazybronco2 said:


> I feel like this thread was brought up to try and throw some members of this forum under the bus, and not a have civilized debate or argument about training methods.


Exactly. Rather transparent motives. And evidently if you train more often than the next guy deems appropriate, you're a ribbon chaser and willing to do anything to win. Rather than dedicated, productive and efficient.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazybronco2 View Post
I feel like this thread was brought up to try and throw some members of this forum under the bus, and not a have civilized debate or argument about training methods.
Exactly. Rather transparent motives. And evidently if you train more often than the next guy deems appropriate, you're a ribbon chaser and willing to do anything to win. Rather than dedicated, productive and efficient._


Not a conspiracy theory! Relax. 

If teaching thru correction is great - explain why or do not contribute. If you feel guilty in any way then you are throwing yourself under the bus. 

Training more often is actually good. Maybe that actually gives the time to teach instead of correcting. If teaching thru correction is done because you do not have the time to teach to achieve your goals then many dogs will be left behind for not making the cut. Yes, that is what pros do and that is how they select the dogs on their trucks. They have unfortunately limited time and the clients expect immediate results. 

Now as far as doing anything to win - there you have a point. If winning means 

putting an e-collar on the dog's behind - no thank you! 

you and your dog are not having fun - no thank you!

The intention of this thread is for the readers out there to understand that just like in other sports the field work requires teaching concepts and correcting for refusals. When the dog still does not understand what it is asked you go back to "keep it simple, stupid" .

At least for many of the people doing field. Goals are great but to me at least the way to get to those goals is more important than the final result.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Don't we all pretty much train, proof, drill?????
For me the difficulty was recognizing when I wasn't dealing with confusion but avoidance. A pretty common mistake for an inexperienced trainer I think.
For example a couple of years ago Winter developed a pop on water blinds. If there was a long entry before water she would pop at the point where she could no longer touch the ground in the water. She is a good water dog and at first it wasn't happening all the time and I kept missing the pop. Then I made excuses she is confused, she is sensitive and it's water...... All this did was get her to commit to the pop so when I did finally address it I ended up using more pressure than if I would have caught it right away.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Claudia, why don't you give us some concrete examples. So far we've had leading with a cookie to get a dog to sit, and watching your dog chase deer. 
You are very sensitive to criticism or questioning of your training and setups, yet this thread (Shelby & Ben) and your comments about a collar on the dog's rear end (me) are very critical of others' training methods. Both myself and Shelby have been transparent in how we are training our dogs, explicit in our respective threads of how our training sessions go and don't shy away from describing our corrections and methods. You may not agree with them, and that's fine. But because it differs from your ideals doesn't make them bad. I have no qualms about describing the corrections I dish out to my dogs, because they are well thought out and not something I take lightly. No reason for me to be defensive because I believe I'm doing the best with the knowledge I presently have. Be thankful there are people out there willing to describe in detail their training experiences so others can observe and maybe help their own situations. 

I'm not sure why you harp on me putting the collar around my dog's waist to collar condition to sit. LOTS of people do this, I certainly didn't come up with it. It worked VERY WELL for my dog with very little wear and tear. When I first saw this method, I thought it was totally nuts. But I was receptive to learning something new, and after thinking a lot about it, decided to try it, and was successful. I fail to see the difference between putting a collar on a dog's neck versus it's waist. We all evolve in our training ideologies. Even YOU used to believe structured field work was bad for dogs under 2 years of age, for health reasons. Yet here you are training Belle well before then. What changed your mind?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Every dog is different. If I had a dog with more "bottom" (learned this term from Shelby the other day), I would not be as cautious. What Molly needs is not what every dog needs, so there is no right way to train. If I had an amazing field dog with so much potential, who lives to train, I'd be selling him short training the way I do now, and he will not need to be trained the way I currently train. I would still be fair, of course, but clearly people have different ideas on what is fair or not. 

Most of the time I have a good idea if Molly is confused or blowing me off. The latter is rare but it happens. One time, we were running a pretty difficult water blind. There was an old fall on the mud and the blind was a channel blind with an angled entry past the old fall. The angle of the entry plus the land made that old fall so desirable that she scalloped twice towards it after casting her away. I knew this was a tough blind for her but at the same time, she knows to take a cast and hold it. Was she confused, was this too much suction for her, or was she blowing me off? I corrected her with just a verbal NO (which to Molly, is probably worse than a nic) right when she decided to scallop back in for the third time, and she took the next cast perfectly down the pond. She knew what to do, it was NOT too much suction, but she needed to be told NO, that's NOT it. I do think that correction "taught" her something much more clearly and efficiently than if I were to break down that blind. She clearly did not need for it to be broken down. Sometimes they do need to be told what NOT to do.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

V - that is the perfect example. And you are 100% correct in that every dog is different and needs something different when training. It depends not only on their temperament but the manner in which they've been trained up to that point and their level of experience.
I still rely heavily on attrition for Bally's blinds. He is in that stage where he has the basics but is learning new concepts. If I apply too much pressure for mistakes on these concepts it could ruin his confidence. If I break it down too much it will never encourage him to see it for himself. You have to push them and make them accountable eventually, but again, it's the art of the trainer to know when to push, when to correct, when to simplify, when to repeat, etc. Only in retrospect do you learn if you did the right thing.

A few weeks ago I ran a water blind with Bally that I knew would be quite challenging. It was about 150 yards long, in the first half of it he had to swim past two points that formed the mouth of a cove. Earlier in the day he had retrieved a mark that had landed inside the cove, but from a different angle. On the blind, he did a good job navigating past the first point, but when he passed the point he discovered that's where the mark had been, and caved hard to the right. I handled up a storm, total attrition but eventually I stopped him, yelled "NO," repeated the cast, which he again ignored, I stopped again and called him partway in, even with the first point (opening to cove), repeated my cast. Again all attrition. He took the correct a little bit, then caved and scalloped back to the cove. At this point he'd been told about 10 times not to go that way. At that point I stopped with a sit-nick-sit, casted OVER away from the point. Well guess who decided he should maybe follow my cast now. He held that cast past the 2nd point and only required one other cast to travel the other 75 yards to the blind. When he returned I re-ran it, and he only needed ONE cast away from the cove to complete the blind (one-whistled it). Clearly he needed that correction to teach him I meant business and to follow my cast rather than his memory of where the mark was. When we repeated it he saw the picture much more clearly.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Anney - once again, if you feel guilty do not contribute or try to assume things. By your post you showed that you are indeed defensive. 

It was Ben that said he does not have time to teach because he is a weekend trainer but then throws shore marks for a pup. 

And yes, I have trained Rose before two and kept her on minimum marks in the back yard. At the time I did not have the place where we go now to train so Rose was not even introduced to ducks or water until she was a year and a half. 

Belle is also trained the basics now and only run minimal marks with her, several short marks or few long marks until her growth plates close. Plenty of time to rest between marks and dogs. She will have to have either Penn Hip if she is to run harder before the age of two or OFA after the age of two. 

Therefore I still follow James Lamb Free pretty much with all my dogs. And that also stands for the FF. I still do not believe a *retriever* should go thru the FF the way they do. A pointer? Yes - if you want your pointer to fetch you should FF. 

The fact that Ben got on Belle's thread to question the marks obviously indicated that walking singles which are the basic training drills are not necessary. I look at them as building drills, teaching drills. 

Instead of keeping the discussion there I figured the discussion should continue on another thread. I did not go into anyone's thread to question their methods. Nor did I read it. 

This is what I do and many others do (right or wrong).


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Belle is also trained the basics now and only run minimal marks with her, several short marks or few long marks until her growth plates close. Plenty of time to rest between marks and dogs. She will have to have either Penn Hip if she is to run harder before the age of two or OFA after the age of two.


500 yard marks???


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> 500 yard marks???


How many have I posted? ONE 

How many hours between the marks? TWO

A terrain that I have walked myself since the crops have been picked. 

The next day while others wanted to do it I did not do it with any of my dogs. Especially in a short hour drill before dark! 

Please! If that is what you are trying to pick at, might as well get the thread back on topic.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Anney I like your example and it demonstrates how I was taught to train as well.
To me you got some great training in that day.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Cast refusals deem a correction assuming the dog knows the cast. The dog refused to take the cast given. Correction (whichever kind that is - nick, time out, attrition) is in place for a refusal. 

Do you correct on marks? How many times before killing momentum and creating a no go? That is teaching thru correction IMHO instead of progressing in marking and if necessary - yes give the dog 100 marks in different terrain slowly adding elements to it. If the dog cannot complete the mark have the bird boy prepared to help or fire drill. If the dog is birdy and/or has lots of drive that dog wants to pick up that bird so help it get to it. And as someone else said, give that dog some freebies to keep the momentum up. Give that dog some pattern blinds to keep them fun.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

All of that is not untrue, but it is not 100% in all cases. The more dogs you train the more you see everything is not black and white.

Yes I correct on marks, judiciously. Of course. Otherwise you aren't going to get a dog to run at the Master+ level. They have to know there are rules. 

Someone above mentioned teaching/correcting on marks via handling. I have never had success with this. Handling on a mark to correct a bad line or bad decision never carried over. If I handled on a mark for a bad line, came back and immediately re-ran it, the dog would go exactly where he went the first time. Like, well I get to this point then she handles me. Calling back sometimes with nicks depending on the situation gets the point across WAY better. Get the dog to do it successfully himself from the beginning. This has been a recent learning curve to me but it makes sense and is working. Of course I am talking about blatant bad decisions by the dog, not for minor deviations.

The times I've been able to successfully correct on a mark by handling has been in the situations where a dog hunts an area extensively then leaves the area to hunt an old fall or switch. A big handle with a nick gets the point across REAL WELL. With my master dogs I can see that they've grasped this concept because they will purposefully turn their hunt toward the correct fall and avoid falling into that trap. But realize the difference : that is handling once the dog successfully reached the area of the mark, not handling to get to the mark. Just my observations. I know plenty of people handle to keep the correct line on a mark and it works for them.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I try my best not to handle on a mark. Whistle stop, call back and re-do yes. If the dog cheats on a mark I handle. 9 times out of 10 on a repeat she gets the message. Of course my only handling dog at this time is Rose. 

Belle only has backyard basic handling. Her whistle stop is good and has been for awhile now. She had one water blind out of necessity recently in the field. No nicks yet on the blinds. I want them "perfect" before any pressure used.


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