# overheard in the gallery



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And curious what the experts here think....
Someone said that the skill jump from Junior Hunter to Senior Hunter is MUCH more than the jump from Senior to Master. In fact, he said once you have thoroughly mastered the senior level skills, you're 90% of the way to the MH skills.
Opinions?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

certainly not an expert here, more like an outsider, but from what I understand it does seem that way. JH to SH includes many new skills (steadiness, blinds, etc.), whereas is seems most of the concepts in MH are just more difficult extensions of the skills already needed for SH. But like I said, I'm nobody in this sport yet, so I my impressions might be off.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

This is an eternal debate. The true answer is "IT DEPENDS." Actually I think the true answer is, why make a statement like this? 
If you have a dog with a lot of natural ability then I think the statement is true. Master is the same skill set as Senior with a whole lot more concepts thrown in and the dog needs more desire to get him through it than your average Senior dog. 
Both are huge undertakings. The amount of training between each level is huge. If it were easy, everyone would do it. 
I think you might think of it as, the jump from Junior to Senior is like if you went straight from Novice to Utility in obedience. Senior to Master is like UD to UDX. 
Having said all that -- I'm in the process of learning just how big a jump it is!!!!!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

My take on it would be similar to Jodie's if we are strictly talking skills needed by the dog. 
But where I believe the biggest jump is, involves the handler going from Senior to Master. The training involved for Master is very intricate and concepts can be very difficult for the two legged team mate to comprehend and will often lead to creating issues for the dog. 
And like Jodie I am not nor I claim to be any kind of expert on the subject.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think junior is the wet your whistle and get you hooked level, the senior and master is for the those who want to go beyond the basics. I for one can't wait to get there with my "kids". Just like novice obedience, I spend more time working on the open and utility stuff because it is more fun and challenging. When we are ready for upper levels, I'll enter novice.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I guess I should have clarified the reason it was said....because I commented that I hoped to get a SH on Tito, but probably not an MH. So the debate started about how, once you get the SH, you're 90% of the way to the MH. 
And allegedly, a lot more people quit after the JH and before the SH than after the SH and before the MH.
Thanks for the comments. They're interesting.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The Jump from Junior to Senior is much much larger for most handlers running Junior dogs. A dog with strong natural ability and minimal obedience skills can eventually get through a Junior if they keep trying. The vast majority of Junior dogs have not gone through formal obedience, hold, fetch, let alone FTP or basic casting. In most cases, the handler brings their dog to the line and lets it do its' thing. 

Senior, Master and beyond is completely different because the dog must handle, and the required skill set is far different than what is needed to succeed in Junior. Most Junior dogs have not been trained with the idea of continuing to Senior, Master, Qual or AA work in mind. The foundation skills that were taught from puppyhood were not what they need to be for a handling dog so the handler has to go back to the beginning and re-teach the dog following the appropriate steps, correcting undesired behaviors and patching holes in training that were allowed to develop due to errors and ommissions on the part of the handler. 

Moving up from Senior to Master is different. The basic skill set for a handling dog is in place. It is the process of refining those skills that gets a dog to the Master level.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

so from what you are saying, Swampcollie (and the same is true in obedience), I need to start from the get-go training with a mind set toward senior/master level. That's great advice, and I will keep it in close in mind!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think about it like obedience. It's a huge jump for most beginner people to go from novice to open. There's such totally new skills there, like retrieving and jumping. I don't think it's as much of a jump of skills from open to utility....most of the utility exercises are based on retrieving, jumping, and other skills picked up from novice and utility, these are just extended and made more difficult. But that doesn't make it easy to go from open to utility.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> so from what you are saying, Swampcollie (and the same is true in obedience), I need to start from the get-go training with a mind set toward senior/master level. That's great advice, and I will keep it in close in mind!


Not quite, train from the start with an FC/AFC in mind.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Nah, I was told this past weekend at the hunt tests that "if you don't start them before they're 6 months old they'll never be worth a shi* as a retriever". And that wasn't even field trials!
Although I do think getting the dual CH on him would be a blast!




Swampcollie said:


> Not quite, train from the start with an FC/AFC in mind.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Nah, I was told this past weekend at the hunt tests that "if you don't start them before they're 6 months old they'll never be worth a shi* as a retriever". And that wasn't even field trials!


:::::covering Conner's eyes::::::::: Don't let Conner see that, he thinks he's "da bomb" when it comes to land marks. But he didn't start until he was five.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think Tito would make an awesome dual champion! And I'll bet Tito thinks so too!!!!!


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## TexGold (Jun 10, 2010)

Swampcollie- You are one smart trainer. I agree completely with what you have said. In fact, I don't plan to do any senior tests, just go straight to Master. 

What I have done as kind of intermediate step is that after getting the JH, I went over to run HRC tests (or hunts as they are called). I skipped their Started Tests and went on to seasoned (similar to Senior). We didn't get a pass on the first one-- mainly I believe because HRC has in my opinion, a unreasonable practice in seasoned test where the handler shoots a blank in the direction of the blind and then sends the dog. I hunt with my dogs as well, and when they see me shoot and nothing falls, they assume that I missed. (Shows how smart the dogs are, because they learn so quickly because I hardly ever miss-- HA!) It took one more pass than if we had an Started Retriever title, but still cheaper in the long run and except for some pretty insignificant nuances, there isn't much difference in a HRC Started test and an AKC Junior test. Why replow the same ground?

However, as in the move from Senior to Master, there is quite a big difference between Seasoned and Finished in HRC. However, I don't think HRC Finished tests are quite a challenging as AKC Master. In any event, we need one pass for the HRCH title, then it is on to MH and running some Qualifiers. 

I hope I have sounded insulting with all the explanation regarding the differences between HRC and AKC tests. I am new to this board and haven't seen much on HRC- the reason for the explanations.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

just curious.....why would you hope you have sounded insulting?




TexGold said:


> I hope I have sounded insulting with all the explanation regarding the differences between HRC and AKC tests. I am new to this board and haven't seen much on HRC- the reason for the explanations.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

TexGold said:


> What I have done as kind of intermediate step is that after getting the JH, I went over to run HRC tests (or hunts as they are called). I skipped their Started Tests and went on to seasoned (similar to Senior). We didn't get a pass on the first one-- mainly I believe because HRC has in my opinion, a unreasonable practice in seasoned test where the handler shoots a blank in the direction of the blind and then sends the dog. I hunt with my dogs as well, and when they see me shoot and nothing falls, they assume that I missed. (Shows how smart the dogs are, because they learn so quickly because I hardly ever miss-- HA!)


By contrast, I also hunt with my dogs, and for my dog who has less confidence on blinds, the shot actually perks him up and gives him more confidence that there is something out there to retrieve! he trusts that something has died when mom shoots!!

I find that the programs fit nicely together in a progression. Started is usually easier than JH, Seasoned is a bit easier than SH (distance and included elements like the honour and our quarter), and then Finished and MH are about on a par up here.

HRC covers such a vast territory that there areapparently regional differences. I know a number of Canadians who do not run Finished at home in Zone 1, getting their titles in the States instead. The ones who do run Finished up here usually have no difficulty in successfully transitioning over to CKC Master tests, or vice versa. Of the other camp, well, I've seen quite a few who still haven't managed to rack up that first MH pass.


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## TexGold (Jun 10, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> just curious.....why would you hope you have sounded insulting?


That's what happens when one thinks faster than he types-- I left out the NOT as in I hope I have NOT sounded insulting...

Yours was definitely a good question--- my apology.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ah well, it was certainly good for a chuckle 



TexGold said:


> That's what happens when one thinks faster than he types-- I left out the NOT as in I hope I have NOT sounded insulting...
> 
> Yours was definitely a good question--- my apology.


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