# Feeling discouraged



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh Sharon, I'm sorry. I know how disappointed you must feel. 
I don't know that you can train for that, I'm too new at this to know, but my gut reaction is that it's something that only experience will solve.
One of the guys I train with has a MH dog, and is always pointing out the differences in how the novice dogs handle things versus an experienced dog. 
I hope Faelan had a good time, and didn't know that you were discouraged.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

It is so very hard to watch a good dog go out over a crazy twist of fate. 

Here is a link to a thread from RTF where drag back is discussed.
Dragback scent - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

Next time you run, we will have to get the GRF mojo working, sending Marks with Good Arcs vibes. 

You two will get them next time. 

Remember at the end of the day Faelan went home in your car.

Holly


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sharon, no advice since I don't do much field work, just wanted to say that Faelan is a great dog and he will get it! Like I was saying to Jessica today, my hopefully future OTCH dog flunked himself out of novice obedience! How discouraging is that! ROFL


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ah well, perhaps people have forgotten my story of Tito's first JH test when he tried to retrieve the entire pen full of birds from behind the gunner's station.....got a snootful of the smell of the birds, figured heck, why go after just ONE in the field, here's the mother lode! We BARELY pulled that one off!
He's done that in training with the bumpers on the bumper boys, too. Couldn't find the one in the field, so went to the bumper boy (marked with a stickman, so very visible) and grabbed hold of one of the still loaded bumpers and tugged and tugged and tugged. Couldn't figure out why it wouldn't come off so he could bring it back to me!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sunrise, how old is Faelan? Also, how often do you train with a large group with birds?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

gdgli said:


> Sunrise, how old is Faelan? Also, how often do you train with a large group with birds?


Faelan is 3. And I usually train with a small group (4 - 7 dogs); even my larger club training sessions will usually only involve 12-14 dogs.

Perhaps I can scent an area in the morning and go back a few hours later in addition to freshly scenting an area? I know in tracking the age of the scent is a huge factor in addition to the scent itself...........


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I would pay attention to what the judges are saying because they have a lot of experience when it comes to watching dogs. You should know that you don't have the only golden that has a problem with dragback. It's a consequence of the exceptional golden nose. If I had your problem, I would want to work on marking drills considering the judges' comments. Secondly, you might try making sure you run your dog at the end of the training session with your group just to give your dog experience in working when there is a lot of dragback. Also, give Faelan experience working around birdboxes/birdbags and your gunners can help with this one i.e. chase him away. If Faelan hunted for 10 minutes, I would say he's got great perseverance which is a plus. Why don't you ask someone who saw this, someone who is really experienced, if they would have handled?


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Sharon hang in there. Faelan is giving you his all and sometimes they struggle a little. Then they usually come back with a vengeance! You are a good trainer have faith and give him an extra kiss and hug!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

gdgli said:


> I would pay attention to what the judges are saying because they have a lot of experience when it comes to watching dogs. You should know that you don't have the only golden that has a problem with dragback. It's a consequence of the exceptional golden nose. If I had your problem, I would want to work on marking drills considering the judges' comments. Secondly, you might try making sure you run your dog at the end of the training session with your group just to give your dog experience in working when there is a lot of dragback. Also, give Faelan experience working around birdboxes/birdbags and your gunners can help with this one i.e. chase him away. If Faelan hunted for 10 minutes, I would say he's got great perseverance which is a plus. Why don't you ask someone who saw this, someone who is really experienced, if they would have handled?


Thank you so much!

We have worked very, very hard teaching Faelan perseverance and not to be expecting help, no popping and no staring at the gunners demanding help  ...so I tend to NOT handle on marks so this does not rear its head again; 

And truth be told, I am not confident enough to handle Faelan at a test - we are still working the basic drills under low distractions and I have not attempted to handle him away from an area of a lot of scent, so I thought trying to handle might cause a larger problem.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That's exactly why we're not entering SH yet. Because Dan says if I try to handle him in the water, he may refuse, and it will get ugly, and he will learn that there's nothing I can do about it in a test situation. Better to just not do it than to cause a problem that could be very, very hard to fix.




Sunrise said:


> Thank you so much!
> 
> We have worked very, very hard teaching Faelan perseverance and not to be expecting help, no popping and no staring at the gunners demanding help  ...so I tend to NOT handle on marks so this does not rear its head again;
> 
> And truth be told, I am not confident enough to handle Faelan at a test - we are still working the basic drills under low distractions and I have not attempted to handle him away from an area of a lot of scent, so I thought trying to handle might cause a larger problem.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I just wanted to throw in my support and say that bad luck is bad luck, and it says nothing about Faelan's quality or the quality of your training.

And also, Lisa's always said that her dogs had great noses, but that it can slow them down or cause problems like this because it makes them rely on their nose when they should rely on their eyes. It may help to think of it as an asset (great nose) that's causing problems in a specific type of situation. I'm sure experience is the answer.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sorry I missed this yesterday. It's a bummer that you end up running last so much of the time. You'll get it, this time was just a fluke. 

Only suggestion I can offer is try to run Faelan at the end of your training sessions, though it won't really simulate the test situation. It might help. Don't be discouraged, it's happened to all of us.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks all. I am discouraged - enough so I am thinking of pulling from next week where he is dropping down to 22nd of 27th but still. Today the sun is out and you can not see the air so hopefully those running today will have better conditions. Trainer said he saw the test (he was judging Senior) and said I caught a bad break ....

I did decide to head out and help with a breeding (  ) rather than debuting Faelan in Open obedience - inside an animal barn - his nose has caused enough agita this weekend ---


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't think I would pull him, Sharon. It's good experience for him, and for you. It's really hard for him to get the practice going thru drag-back scent any other way. If he gets totally lost, shout out there, to the gunner/bird boy, "PLEASE HELP HIM!". At that point you've been dropped anyway, and he might as well come back with the bird. I saw a couple of people do that at one of the juniors we ran. The judges didn't mind, they want the dog to come back with a bird.
JMO.
And if you have some pros running, he might get bumped up to an even earlier slot


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I don't think I would pull him, Sharon. It's good experience for him, and for you. It's really hard for him to get the practice going thru drag-back scent any other way. If he gets totally lost, shout out there, to the gunner/bird boy, "PLEASE HELP HIM!". At that point you've been dropped anyway, and he might as well come back with the bird. I saw a couple of people do that at one of the juniors we ran. The judges didn't mind, they want the dog to come back with a bird.
> JMO.
> And if you have some pros running, he might get bumped up to an even earlier slot


I agree totally! I should have thought of that, as that very thing happened to me. The judges asked if I wanted the throwers to help, which I did, they did, and though we failed, Doo was successful, so it was a good day. Don't pull him...Have fun with him.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Sharon sorry it did not go as you would have liked. Faelen is a great dog. 

One thing I noticed from Gabby's tests, one to the next, was her confidence in herself. When she ran her first test, she did not run past the gunners in practice (would start to hunt too early), and I thought she was a weak marker. However her last few tests her marking was DEAD on, and the judges all commented how good she was. I am telling you this because even though you had a bad weekend, your dog may have come out ok. Go run next weekend. 

IF you can before you run, take out some ducks, set them in the field in front of where you want your mark to fall to scent the area. Then pick them up. Then run your mark making sure it lands further back so he has to run through the scent to get his duck. Weather is ALWAYS going to play a part on the dogs can't control that.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Sharon, I am soo sorry. I don't think that you should pull next week. So many things can happen at a test, sometimes it takes running tests to find out the things that you need to work on in training. Just go and have fun! Faelen is an awesome dog and I am sure he will have a great time with you! Chin up, sometimes things just happen!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sunrise, don't be discouraged. Consider the Hunt Test as a diagnostic tool---it showed you what you need to work on. I really think that with a little more experience with this, Faelan won't have a problem.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Hey you have a wonderful dog and you guys will get there. We all have bad days--but we move on. I still love that line in Batman--"why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves back up again."


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

We had a problem with drag back at a test. So for a few practice sessions I would drag a fairly ripe duck around an area then have the mark thrown about 15-20 yards behind the drag area. It was just something we had to learn. Good luck


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

There are a number of drills you can do to help the dog to really MARK the fall so that they are able to overcome other factors like cover and dragback.

The simplest is what we call Two-Chair. You need two chairs and can have either one or two gunners; you need a field that is mowed short. Position the chairs about 40 yards out from the running line, equidistant from a centre line straight out from the running line. Position them such that your gunner(s) can throw to that central line. One gun station will have white bumpers, the other orange. White bumper gunner throws first, angle in. It is easy for the dog to see and mark as it is always visible to them. Next throw is an angle in from the orange gunner station. The bumper should land in the same spot but this time it will not be visible to the dog once it is on the ground, so they realy have to mark it as it falls, but the previous white bumper mark should assist them with this. The next pair of throws are flat, frst from the white station then from the orange station. Next set of throws are angle back, white then orange. So now the dog is having to run over old falls as well. This really helps them learn to mark and recognize depth of fall which is an important element of strong marking.

The other drills good for building marking skills are the ABCD drill, and Organized Confusion. I start doing ABCD drills once my pups get good at Two-Chair, and Organized Confusion once they are doing ABCD confidently. Both of these require the dog to focus on the mark they are to retrieve rather than anyone else in the field or anything else that may be going on.

Then work in scent in training. Since you have a relatively small group you are not going to create the sort of dragback that you will get with a 40 or 50 dog entry in a test, especially one with a flyer where the LZ is inconsistent and there is bird schrapnel all over the place. For this we have done something called Duck Soup. The day before you train, take your nastiest training birds that are ready to go to disposal anyhow, put them in a bucket with a gallon of water and let them stew there ALL DAY. When you go out to train splash that skank water around in an area ahead of the gun station and then trail back towards the line as if creating dragback. This will be far more pungent than anything your dog will experience at a test. Make the bird easy to find once they punch through and get to the area of fall--hard to get to, easy to find; easy to get to, hard to find!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thank you - this is awesome  



sterregold said:


> There are a number of drills you can do to help the dog to really MARK the fall so that they are able to overcome other factors like cover and dragback.
> 
> The simplest is what we call Two-Chair. You need two chairs and can have either one or two gunners; you need a field that is mowed short. Position the chairs about 40 yards out from the running line, equidistant from a centre line straight out from the running line. Position them such that your gunner(s) can throw to that central line. One gun station will have white bumpers, the other orange. White bumper gunner throws first, angle in. It is easy for the dog to see and mark as it is always visible to them. Next throw is an angle in from the orange gunner station. The bumper should land in the same spot but this time it will not be visible to the dog once it is on the ground, so they realy have to mark it as it falls, but the previous white bumper mark should assist them with this. The next pair of throws are flat, frst from the white station then from the orange station. Next set of throws are angle back, white then orange. So now the dog is having to run over old falls as well. This really helps them learn to mark and recognize depth of fall which is an important element of strong marking.
> 
> ...


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Awesome post Shelly! Thanks for that info.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I don't think I would pull him, Sharon. It's good experience for him, and for you. It's really hard for him to get the practice going thru drag-back scent any other way. If he gets totally lost, shout out there, to the gunner/bird boy, "PLEASE HELP HIM!". At that point you've been dropped anyway, and he might as well come back with the bird. I saw a couple of people do that at one of the juniors we ran. The judges didn't mind, they want the dog to come back with a bird.
> JMO.
> And if you have some pros running, he might get bumped up to an even earlier slot


Thanks, I like that idea!!

About the pros, I sent an email requesting to know how they determine the running order. If I read the explanation correctly for determining the running order, the pros and folks with multiple dogs are placed randomly in the running order first. The people with the most dogs are placed first, then the next highest etc with single dog entries filling in around them when all the multiple dog folks have been seeded. The entries are then randomized and compared to any other stakes they have running. There is no attempt to randomize where the dogs fall within the running order from test to test.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Yeah, what they said.

All I can add is, get as much experience as possible.
Train as much as possible.
Volunteer and/or watch the experienced handlers.

Over time, the more skills and experiences you have (+ and -), the more tools you develop to overcome the unexpecteds and out-of-your controls, such as running order, where/how the flyer lands, no bird, interference (distractions, people, honor or other dogs), etc.

Wanna know how I learned to wait at least 3 birds after a no-bird? The time we had a no-bird and being last dog had to re-run immediately. Boomer went directly to the no-bird fall instead of the re-do fall. The judge explained why. Lesson learned. For life.

I don't post too much on here because I can't really learn from reading or discussing, I probably learned most in field work and in life by doing, especially by screwing up!

This is not to say keep taking tests and letting bad habits develop, but there's a difference between bad habits and inexperience, with or without less than ideal circumstances. I hope I explain this in a way that makes sense, it's hard to explain.

Please don't give up. Take a break if you need to. That is just my personal opinion.

P.S. After re-thinking this, I decided to give myself some advice to get as much experience as possible in TRACTABLE HEELING !!! LOL


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow Shelly! Thanks for the super awesome post, I will certainly print that out and put it in my drill book. Love the idea about the duck soup, I could see where that would be a big help.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Wow Shelly! Thanks for the super awesome post, I will certainly print that out and put it in my drill book. Love the idea about the duck soup, I could see where that would be a big help.


Me Too. Thanks!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

LOVE the duck soup idea!!!!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> Today was about 100% humidity and just a miserable day. Faelan was 30th dog to run today - about 3 hours + of other dogs dragging their flyers through the area of the fall.
> 
> He truly nailed his first mark - probably the best of all the dogs.
> 
> ...


Never call a dog back in on a mark if you can help it. Ask the bird boys to help him if you have to. Judges should have called to help him find the mark. Help your dog even if you are in a test.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Just a quick update - I have decided to take a break from field activities. I will be concentrating on obedience and agility at least for now.

My Faelan is very good, but I simply do not have the time available to train him in field as he deserves. Especially given the comments about how I've had tough breaks etc. I am discouraged and I love my dog and he deserves better than to have me angry at something we are supposed to enjoy doing together. 

To judges: please remember that there are other newbies out there like me. I saw several people walking away from that last test in tears, including guys. My tears came later but my dog saw them just the same and licked them away. Is this really what the tests you are setting up are supposed to be about? Think about that please. Uphold the standards, but don't expect advanced concepts or handling at the Junior level. I have trained with several judges who admire my Faelan and believe he is a strong retriever, given his level, and yet the tests are not showing this.

Added: Oops didn't mention this before. One of the dogs (9 month old golden) had her flyer land a few feet within my Faelan's, further from the wall and way further up in the running order but out of the other dogs area of fall. This dog, who one would presume had a very experienced handler, was handled to her bird - probably anywhere between 8 to 12 whistles were required to save the Q.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Sharon, I don't know how you find the time to do the things you do as it is, obedience, agility, and field, with THREE dogs! I admire your dedication, and sometimes taking a step back and taking a break is the best thing for you, and for the dog.
Meanwhile, be sure to keep us informed on how the obedience and agility are going


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Sharon don't be discouraged. Take the break obviously you need one. It is sad when you get judges like that. 

I have a friend who has a show lab. She took him to a hunt test. He is not a drivey dog, and I think he has some serious lack of training issues. However he is a nice dog. I was not there, don't know what happened, but her confidence in herself and her dog went down the tubes. Even in training she expects him to fail. Not saying this is you at all, but it is a result of a judge setting up a horrible JH test. Even our trainer said it stunk. 

The Sunday of our JH the test was not a gimme. However it was not 'unfair' either. The hardest part was the early dogs had to deal with the sun in their eyes on the first mark down. Many did not see it, and it fell right in front of a corn field so that just made it visually tougher. Later dogs lined that mark great (including Gabby). The early dogs were mostly trainer dogs, who left in a huff after each having failed a dog or two because of the sun. I am not sure the afternoon before when they set the test, the direction or time of sunrise was taken into consideration. In my case running late was a better thing. Gabby ran 35 and I held to my position the best I could. 

The winter is coming, work more on obedience and agility, but keep working on your field skills. Don't be discouraged.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sunrise

Which hunt test was this? Are you friends with anyone in the club that sponsored the event? Did you get a chance to speak to any experienced people at the test? How long have you been in this game? You can PM me if you like.

My experience is that there are judges and there are judges. Case in point. My dog ran a JH test and was handled by a friend. The judge set up a water test that resulted in an angle entry for the dogs. Now I am not a judge but I spoke to an experienced judge who said that you try not to do that to a Junior dog. He didn't really expect junior dogs to do this and you are setting up a situation that encourages bank running in a young dog that probably has not been trained on this. These were also my feelings. My dog did qualify that day but she ran the bank.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Sharon, I can't wait to read about your adventures in obedience and agility. I hope that you are just putting the field training on the back burner for now, and look forward to the time when your field pot boils over.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

gdgli said:


> Sunrise
> 
> Which hunt test was this? Are you friends with anyone in the club that sponsored the event? Did you get a chance to speak to any experienced people at the test? How long have you been in this game? You can PM me if you like.
> 
> My experience is that there are judges and there are judges. Case in point. My dog ran a JH test and was handled by a friend. The judge set up a water test that resulted in an angle entry for the dogs. Now I am not a judge but I spoke to an experienced judge who said that you try not to do that to a Junior dog. He didn't really expect junior dogs to do this and you are setting up a situation that encourages bank running in a young dog that probably has not been trained on this. These were also my feelings. My dog did qualify that day but she ran the bank.


Yes, I have run in JH tests where bank running was rampant. Faelan did not run the banks. The experienced people who witnessed Faelan's latest test are in agreement that he caught a series of bad breaks. So unless and until I have full confidence that I can handle him to his bird if he needs it, I will not enter more Hunt Tests. Should this be needed at the JH level? who knows, but since I am taking a break from field training, this could be quite a while LOL 

I am a newbie to field. I have experience in obedience, rally and agility. There are so many things I do not know about field work, it would probably fill volumes. So bottom line is I am letting my dog fail since I do not have the knowledge or skill to train him properly.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Handling at Junior level is a no no and any judge that sets up test where your dog needs to be handled is wrong. I know some judges will do it and give you a pass as long as the dog gets in the water and gives you the bird. Gunners first test was just that and was a poor water series. Basically the judges used the same marks they used the day before in the Senior test. * Why teach the dog to run the bank in a test where you have no tools to deal with it???*Junior level is about marking skills and delivering to hand. To pass a JH test your dog should be able to mark and deliver the bird to hand. I would suggest marks,marks and more marks to build confidence and work on hold and delivery. When those are solid then you can move on to handling your dog as required in SH.
Some of these judges need a reality check.
Gunner did well on water marks but I had done some preparation beforehand.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> Never call a dog back in on a mark if you can help it. Ask the bird boys to help him if you have to. Judges should have called to help him find the mark. Help your dog even if you are in a test.


Have to be very careful about this--at a test I was at in Michigan the AKC rep was present and wrote judges up for doing this in JH. He deemed it training on the grounds. They really had the dog's benefit in mind but the rep did not see it that way...:no:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> Just a quick update - I have decided to take a break from field activities. I will be concentrating on obedience and agility at least for now.
> 
> My Faelan is very good, but I simply do not have the time available to train him in field as he deserves. Especially given the comments about how I've had tough breaks etc. I am discouraged and I love my dog and he deserves better than to have me angry at something we are supposed to enjoy doing together.


I think your philosophy for training and working is really wise. It's supposed to be about enjoying your dog and your time together. 

And while I'm bummed for you that field isn't going the way you want it to, I'm selfishly happy for me that you're focusing on agility and obedience for a while because that increases my chances of having opportunities to train with you.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> Yes, I have run in JH tests where bank running was rampant. Faelan did not run the banks. The experienced people who witnessed Faelan's latest test are in agreement that he caught a series of bad breaks. So unless and until I have full confidence that I can handle him to his bird if he needs it, I will not enter more Hunt Tests. Should this be needed at the JH level? who knows, but since I am taking a break from field training, this could be quite a while LOL
> 
> I am a newbie to field. I have experience in obedience, rally and agility. There are so many things I do not know about field work, it would probably fill volumes. So bottom line is I am letting my dog fail since I do not have the knowledge or skill to train him properly.


You are allowed to handle on one mark in JH, but should not HAVE to because of poor test design.

I would take a break from running tests right now, but would not take a break from training, even if you only go out once a week--consistent regular exposure builds a dog's skills and confidence. If you stop altogether and then have to start back up you will spend time rebuilding skills you have already spent time teaching. Get the dog doing things more complicated in training than you will see in the test--the dog should be underwhelmed. Remember that the standard allows for marks up to 100 yards land and water--and while they should not be cheaty, you can see that distance in a test. You can see re-entry marks, and so on. I would be making a list of the different concepts you might see in a non-cheating mark and ensure that you are teaching the dog to deal with these factors in training. Keep a training log so that you know what you have worked on, and what the dog did well, and what the dog had trouble with. Bonnie had troubles punching through cover so we did 150+ yard marks through strips of cover with the gunner firedrilling if she needed the momentum assistance.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Shelly, what is "firedrilling" I've not heard that one before. I have an idea, gunner helping by throwing more bumpers?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Shelly, what is "firedrilling" I've not heard that one before. I have an idea, gunner helping by throwing more bumpers?


Yes, as soon as the dog shows any sign of breaking down, ie changing line, slowing down, putting nose down to hunt early, the gunner says hey hey and tosses another bird or bumper. You have to be careful not to do it too much, or when the dog is too close to the gunner though or the dog can become dependent on the help. It can be a good tool though for teaching a dog to perservere through tough factors.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Fire drilling involves one bumper when the dog breaks down and another one about a third the distance to mark and no more. Actually you use a bird for the mark and bumpers to pull the dog to mark. Object is to keep the dogs focus on the mark. Repeat with bird or bumper and no help and no shot or hey hey.
I do not do hey hey in route to the mark I think the dog needs to focus on the bumper and visually watching the arc and the fall.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

We will hey-up when the bumper is in the air, particularly if the dog is dropping their head and would not see the help throw otherwise. We will use birds, bumpers, whatever is to hand. Hell I have thrown my hat, and the bird bucket on occasion, the goal being to get the dog to navigate the factor and get the bird. And yes, we will repeat the concept to see if the dog has learned.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

And one other thing I thought of--I believe you had mentioned at one point that you were having the gunner not help as much? At this point if the dog is giving up the hunt and coming in without the bird I would be having the gunner help to keep him in the area of fall. He has to learn to stay out there, and you cannot help with that from the line--it is the gunner's jub to help the dog in the field. It sounds like he is marking well enough to be making the fall area, so then it is a matter of perserverance, of staying there and working it out.

When the bird is readily visible in the area of fall does he get to the AOF efficiently, pick it up and return right away? If so that would be further evidence of good marking, but low perserverence, of not regarding the retrieve part of the equation as mandatory--this is often the challenge faced when chosing not to use FF. In that case I would be doing marks that get him out there, and require him to hunt once he makes the area--in this case, easy to get to hard to find, but also salting the cover with birds, so that when he does put up a hunt and start digging into the cover he gets the reward for doing so. You can even start building this skill by doing some of the Brit-style drills for working cover. Start by tossing a bird into the thick stuff with the dog watching. Encourage him to get in there and dig the bird out. Praise like the dickens when he does! Then put a bunch of birds in cover and send him in to hunt it up. If you have access to some pigeons, idzzying them or shackling them and planting them in the cover can also help with a dog's willingness to work cover for birds they cannot see. The reward of that live bird is pretty intense! He will soon learn to hunt with his nose as well as with his eyes.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

sterregold said:


> And one other thing I thought of--I believe you had mentioned at one point that you were having the gunner not help as much? At this point if the dog is giving up the hunt and coming in without the bird I would be having the gunner help to keep him in the area of fall. He has to learn to stay out there, and you cannot help with that from the line--it is the gunner's jub to help the dog in the field. It sounds like he is marking well enough to be making the fall area, so then it is a matter of perserverance, of staying there and working it out.
> 
> When the bird is readily visible in the area of fall does he get to the AOF efficiently, pick it up and return right away? If so that would be further evidence of good marking, but low perserverence, of not regarding the retrieve part of the equation as mandatory--this is often the challenge faced when chosing not to use FF. In that case I would be doing marks that get him out there, and require him to hunt once he makes the area--in this case, easy to get to hard to find, but also salting the cover with birds, so that when he does put up a hunt and start digging into the cover he gets the reward for doing so. You can even start building this skill by doing some of the Brit-style drills for working cover. Start by tossing a bird into the thick stuff with the dog watching. Encourage him to get in there and dig the bird out. Praise like the dickens when he does! Then put a bunch of birds in cover and send him in to hunt it up. If you have access to some pigeons, idzzying them or shackling them and planting them in the cover can also help with a dog's willingness to work cover for birds they cannot see. The reward of that live bird is pretty intense! He will soon learn to hunt with his nose as well as with his eyes.


Thanks  

Yes, he gets to the AOF efficiently. He rarely needs to do a hunt but when he does, it is a tight quartering hunt. He retrieves the bird quickly when found and returns directly and rapidly to deliver to hand. Live birds are picked up from behind and delivered quickly as well. He sits quietly on the line waiting for his bird and then you see his whole head following the arc of the bird. His ears are forward and he is ready for his release. 

He has been schooled in getting through cover (over and under) for his bird but I would definitely need to do a lot more here. We have gotten his perserverance up fairly well but again more work is obviously needed; this particular bird fell angled back of the gunner station at the base (or possibly against) a stone wall. 4 times he broke out of the AOF for most of the other dogs and headed toward his bird, but his nose overruled each time and he headed back to the drag back area. I would estimate that he spent about 10 minutes hunting for that bird, each hunt getting shorter before heading towards the wall again, to be sucked back into the area in front of the gunners station. 

So, I need to train drag back, walls, etc. I need to train him to go through a fields of feathers (he once came back with a mouthful of feathers on a water retrieve where again his bird landed perhaps 10 yards beyond where most of the birds did). I need to look for foul weather opportunities for training.

I have also been told I should have requested a walk out to see if the bird landed in a hole or lodged in the wall or something since he seemed to be very close a few times.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I feel bad for you, but really bad for Faelan. The poor guy loves to retrieve, and to have to come in without a bird is such a downer (at least it is for my boy). I think you are doing the right thing by taking a break and working out some issues, which I think are not so much training challenges, but luck of the draw so to speak. Don't get me wrong, there are things you need to work on, and you have been given terrific advice, just know we support you in whatever path you take with your dogs.


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