# I don't think I can do this anymore



## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I am writing with tears in my eyes. I feel like such a failure.

As many of you know, I have been having biting issues with my dog since he was 4.5 months old. The issues aren't the typical puppy nipping-- I wish. This comes from frustration and arousal. He is 7 months today.

The past month, we saw a decrease of the behavior, but he is always highly managed. At the beginning of the month, he jumped and bit my 10 y.o. daughter to the point of bruises. It had been almost a month since he did that-- and while he has jumped and bitten since then, he has never left a bruise and was always calmed very quickly. So, I thought that not only was he mouthing less overall, but was developing a softer mouth.

Two days ago, my daughter was out with him. She was allowed to sit on our deck with him unsupervised as that is safe. However, unbeknownst to me, she got up and walked toward the back of the yard. In her mind, if she was calm, it would be OK. 

She saw he was getting wild, so she tried to make it up to the playset for safety. Too late. She grabbed his leash which he always wears, but it and his collar slipped off. She screamed for me and I saw him biting and jumping. I had to physically restrain him, and he got away from me-- went right back to her. She has bruises from him.

Today, we went on a walk together. We have been limiting the walks to just the end of the block as that is what is safest. Longer sometimes = bites, but sometimes we are successful. Well, against my daughter's recommendation, I said, I think he is OK-- let's go around the whole block. I was watching him for signs of anxiety and he seemed to be doing well. We passed some barking dogs and he ignored them. But then, we were walking and I felt him going for the treat bag-- and then for me. I tried being very stern with him and he only bit more and harder. He absolutely would not stop. I was able to tether him to a tree. He was wild eyed and panting.

After awhile (and someone driving down the street coming to check on us!) we tried again. Crazy and wrong, but I wanted to see what he would do if I did not treat him the 2nd time as I almost felt like I would be rewarding him for what had just happened. And yes, he started to do the same horrible biting almost immediately. I know his adrenalin is up and will be for the next few days so it's really not surprising at all. We had to tether him again. I made sure to treat him all the way home so it wouldn't happen again.

I just don't know what to do. We already rehomed the dog we had briefly in the fall for fear aggression and a bite on my toddler's cheek. We have spent THOUSANDS of dollars-- which we honestly do not have-- on him. I would spend more if I knew it would solve the problem. There is so much I need the money for but I had this fantasy of a dog that my kids could play with, that I could walk, one we could train, one who would be there as a companion. There is no way we can afford another dog. It's him or no dog. 

But when I think about the fact that I can't even go around the block with him, that today I felt scared because I knew the biting was coming from wanting food, and the fact that I absolutely could not get him to stop (thank goodness there were trees to tether him)-- it wasn't just being aroused-- when I remember what it looked like to see my daughter bitten and not being able to restrain him safely and him going after her again . . .then I just think, no, this is ridiculous. I have young children, as young as age 3. This is not the right dog.

We received the muzzle the other day, and have been slowly helping him learn to accept it, but it feels very wrong to have to HAVE to use it. I feel embarrassed and ashamed. A fool, really, to have thought I was doing everything "right" and now to be in this position.

I have had 2 trainers and both said they do not see this as aggression. Some of the biting I would agree with, that it isn't aggression but just rough, inappropriate play/trying to interact. However, in instances like today, I would say it does stem from frustration aggression over food, and it has happened from other instances like not getting what he wants (to meet a dog or person). 

I spend such incredible amounts of time on him, either with him directly or learning more about this. It seems this is "the age" when it happens if it is going to happen. Do I ride it out? Do I wait until he is 18 months? Or age 2? Or?? 


I am not looking for training advice as this point. I just need help in determining if it is time to give up or if I keep going with him, will he become the dog we want for our family.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Sending you a hug...and please, please stop blaming yourself. Sometimes stuff happens we have no control over.

Try the muzzle for a month before you make a decision? If he can't bite, he won't continue to practice the behavior, and you may be able to relax a little. This has to be so terribly stressful.

If it were me, and this is only me, mind you, I would want to know for sure if this is a growing up thing or something different and unfortunately, the only way to know that is to give it time. Using the muzzle might give you some time and keep your kids safe, which is obviously the top priority. It might also help him get more exercise, which usually helps.

I don't know if this helps, but Griffey is a pretty calm guy and even he is going through a phase of grabbing at me with his new, enormous teeth right now, so it's not just you and Kevin. 

You know how hard you've worked on this. Please stop blaming yourself, okay?

ETA: A muzzle is just a tool, just like a leash or a clicker. If others want to judge you for using it, well, they're wrong. Honestly, the stigma might be helpful in that people will give you more distance?

ETA2: Can you board him for a couple of days just to get a breather?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I think you're the only one who can decide that. We can only speculate, and I personally haven't had to deal with a dog that was so difficult in that way. I think the fact that you're afraid of his is discouraging. You expect the same result as you've previously seen and he keeps giving it to you. Would your breeder be willing to take him back?


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Oh Anele, I can feel the angst through your words, you have worked incredibly hard with him. You state that you have consulted two trainers, and also how much money you have spent on him so far, but would it be possible for you to get a licensed, vet referred behaviorist to evaluate him and help you come up with some strategies for working with him? 

I really hope that giving him up is not the final outcome of your story, but I also understand if that's what it comes down to. Your family must come first. 

You are NOT a failure, you are a strong momma bear and you are doing the best you can for your children and for Kevin. 

Here's another hug for you!


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Only one more thought...some male dogs respond better to male handlers, especially during the teen stage. Is your husband able to help, or were either of your trainers male?


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I am confused by your post. I am very sorry for what you are experiencing, as one of my Golden's turned out to be aggressive. He did bite my adult son on his hand, at about 6 months....

The question I have is you mention all the biting the dog is doing, but you say bruises instead of broken skin? If this dog is aggressive in nature, I cannot imagine that he would not be using his teeth? Maybe he is just a real 'over active/excitable dog? I would consider taking him to an animal behavorialist (sp?). We did that with our dog and it was very helpful. You can find one through your vet, usually. 

Have you considered training him by using a pinch collar? In training I have used this to teach our dogs not to jump, simply by standing on the lead when they were starting to jump. The collar did the rest!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I understand your frustration and feeling overwhelmed.

Most of the dogs we get for training are between the age of 5 months and 1 year, because that's when they are the worst behaved. I agree with your trainers, he doesn't sound aggressive, just majorly bratty. I wish we were near, I'd be more than happy to help you deal with this. I am very sorry that you're having such issues with such a bratty teenager dog!


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Hi Anele - I am so sorry you are facing this decision. I can tell by your post how gut wrenching this is for you as you've put your all into helping Kevin and ensuring your family is safe. 

I am just going to say I second the second poster's opinion as that is exactly what I would have wrote. I am not in your shoes with young children, so I am very much in a different position, but I do not think I'd be able to re-home him until I was sure this was a long-term issue verses a bratty adolescence issue. I also like how she mentioned that the muzzle is a tool, just like a clicker and that people who don't understand that will give you more space, which may be a blessing. 

I completely understand how you feel about the muzzle, because I too have been reluctant to try one due to the stigma. In the back of my mind, I felt putting one on was like advertising that I'm a terrible dog mom! But, thinking about it the way Noreaster put it, made me re-think that completely. I think all of us who deal with this issue have to stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and do what is right for our families and our dogs. If it means a muzzle, so be it! It keeps you and your kids safe while allowing Kevin to continue being with you and hopefully moving out of this stage.

I will tell you that Lloyd's biting was there every now again before he hit 6-7 months, but at 7 months is when he turned into a holy terror and there really was nothing I could on my own to calm him. It continued to be a horribly stressful issue (as you know from my PMs and posts on here!) and had me wondering how I was going to do this and we've recently seen a major turn in the last 2 weeks or so (he's now just over 9 1/2 months old). He still gets a bit overly excited at times, but I am able to re-direct him now and it seems his mind is a bit more stable, if that makes sense. I have a feeling that you'll experience something very similar with Kevin. Now it seems his focus is on other dogs and is demonstrating some aggressive behaviors towards other dogs which was never an issue until recently. Never a dull moment with these kids!

I realize I may be assuming that your situation is just like mine and since I'm not there, I don't know if that is true. Only you'll be able to make the decision and we can only give you some things to think about.

I really think that some folks luck out with easy pups and don't go through this fun stuff the first year or so. Then there are folks like us who have dogs who really push our buttons. However, I do believe they will mature into much easier pups. However, it clearly is a labor of love until that day comes. 

Please know that I would NOT judge if you if you decide you can't do this. As I mentioned above and in previous posts, I am in awe of you managing this situation with having a full house of little ones. I honestly have no idea how you do it all. 

Do you have a friend or family member who would be willing to take Kevin for a few days? I recently went on a couple of work trips and had Lloyd stay with the sitter and I feel the break was good for both of us! Since I returned from the first trip, the biting issue has been almost non-existent. He sitter said he never demonstrated any of the biting or even demand barking he had been doing with me. I might mention that the demand barking has been much better too since he came back. I feel like sending him off was like hitting a re-set button. 

I wish I lived closer because I would love to help you by taking him off your hands.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

fostermom said:


> I understand your frustration and feeling overwhelmed.
> 
> Most of the dogs we get for training are between the age of 5 months and 1 year, because that's when they are the worst behaved. I agree with your trainers, he doesn't sound aggressive, just majorly bratty. I wish we were near, I'd be more than happy to help you deal with this. I am very sorry that you're having such issues with such a bratty teenager dog!


I was thinking the same thing about wishing I or someone here was nearer to Anele that might be willing to observe and help her with Kevin. Maybe there's somone in the midwest who can reach out to her who might see this and through PM find out if they are close enough to maybe meet?


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

Poor you. How hard. A couple of thoughts from me... My dog is 9 months now, and not an ounce of agression in him but even he plays too hard with my 10 year old daughter sometimes and has been known to leave nasty bruises. So I tend to agree that "bruising" is not necessarily the same thing as biting aggression and can result from simple boisterous puppy play. 
(Not minimising the fact that it is frightening and unpleasant and not appropriate but I wanted to reassure you that it can happen even with calmer pups) I totally second the suggestions people have made about leaving him with someone for a few days or longer. When Buddy was 4 months and still in his active biting phase he had to go back to live with the breeder for a few weeks because I had an accident. When he came back home he was not the same dog! He was polite and had an amazingly improved bite inhibition.. in fact he had been in a kennel with his mum and a couple of older dogs and they had clearly "put him in his place". So you may find a double benefit if you can find someone to take him who already has dogs... it will enable you to have a much needed breather and think about what you want to do next and the other dogs may lick him into shape (I am presuming he is not dog aggressive?)
Only you can decide in the end what is best for you and your family and no one will ever judge you given how hard you have tried to make things work.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

So sorry. Is Kevin neutered. You know they say it won't matter but in your case maybe you should try it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Muzzle Up! Online | The Muzzle Up! Project


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

Out of curiosity... what are your little girls feelings at the moment? Is she dealing with the situation and wants to keep going or is she becoming quite frightened of him? Not that you would let your daughter decide whats best for the family but I too have a 10 year old and I know that they can be really quite grown up and lucid when it comes to their dogs!


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I live in the Midwest and would love to help but I don't think my mom would be up to it.

I agree I think Kevin needs to go away to a trainer for awhile. I think that would be my last straw. Only you can know if it is time.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It is hard to read through the narrative to the facts, and tell what is going on, but it does seem like he is too much puppy to fit comfortably into your family and that you have little trust in him. On the bite scale he is not an aggressive dog right now, and seems to have decent bite inhibition while still being a PIA. In this case your management plan borke down, and that is likely to happen in a family with active kids. It is hopeful that your daughter is just fine with him on the porch. It is commendable you are trying to keep him and work with him. 

Do you think all of his needs are being met for off leash exercise daily, training classes, socialization etc. Can you hire a dog savvy high school kid to hike him? 

Rehoming him to an expert before he has a bite history IS a good option.

Try lowering the protein in his food, working on a default down command, and finding a good sized training center that offers things like agility or competition obedience as well as pet classes and have him evaluated. Neuter him and talk to your vet about if he is a good candidate for fluoxetine. 

A young golden like this needs a weekly dog training class, and an hour or two of off leash hiking in the woods each dayto blow off steam and be his best later.


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## Rumple’s Mom (Apr 1, 2015)

I only know part of your story Anele...but I do recall you having issues with him and biting for a while. I can't remember, but why does he have treats on his walk? I haven't done one treat with Rumple while out on our walks, so am curious why this route was taken. I'm just wondering if he is now expecting treats, demanding them even, and is getting treated at the wrong time. I'm not trying to say this is your fault at all, but I know the best of us can inadvertently reward our pups at the wrong moment, reinforcing behavior we're trying to work on. 

My oldest is 9, my youngest 4. Rumple is only 11 weeks, but he is already chasing after them, doing the little hop thing to try to grab their clothing, which could lead to an accidental bite. My MIL's dog did/does this, but he's now 3 and big, knocking them down - I don't want that with our dog. Her way of dealing with it was to yell at my kids to not run, instead of training her dog not to chase them and knock them down. 

Currently I'm having both of my kids help me with this, I have them run across the room (Huge, open concept area), Rumple is on leash and I'm right there. The second he gives chase, I step on the leash and say "Uh uh", which is our universal command of "stop that, leave it alone, etc" that he already knows and responds well to. I'm already seeing a difference with him, but it's a thing that I want to stay on top of. Maybe this is something you could try? I'm not a dog trainer, but this is just what's working for my family and perhaps could work with yours.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Thank you all so very, very much.

I suppose my biggest concern is that I "should" be rehoming him because it would be the responsible thing to do, and that I haven't. You know how everyone around you gets sort of used to things, accept the way it is . . .meanwhile you are living with a timebomb? I guess that is what I mean. I don't want to be dumb or dismissive or avoiding or rationalizing. 

RE: the muzzle-- I have no problem with the stigma of it, and we are working daily on getting him to enjoy it before actually using it. So far, he is learning to LOVE it. He gets excited every time he sees it. We've had it on him for a bit but have not worked up to where he can actually wear it. It's more a sign that-- is this not a safe dog? Are we being irresponsible? 

Some of you have mentioned that your dogs have bruised as well-- I guess I am most concerned that today it was because of food. That has happened very infrequently and only on walks, but it is concerning. And, to goldlover, yes, for sure he could actually BITE hard and he isn't, so I suppose that is a good sign. For all the biting he did today, there are no punctures. 

Noreaster, yes, ultimately I do want to know if we can make it through this. I do want to know what would happen if we gave it more time, but again-- not sure if that is foolish. Is Griffey REALLY putting his teeth on you, or are you just trying to cheer me up, haha? I have been planning on boarding him sometime this summer just so we can get a break-- I guess I should really do it sooner rather than later. As for the male aspect, he has done this to my husband, too, though he is taller (I'm 5' 1"!) and stronger and can physically hold him away. The trainers were both female. 

Archer's mom, yes, the breeder would take him back. I am certain I could find a home for him in 10 minutes if needed. He is a beautiful boy with so many wonderful qualities.

Robin, thank you so much. The 2nd trainer I used works for a vet behaviorist and she said I didn't need to go that route at this time. The 1st trainer has a degree in behavior and also did not recommend a behaviorist. But of course, it is always an option. 

goldlover, he is absolutely very excitable, but only at certain times. Yesterday he spent most of the day outside with us, sleeping on the deck. 

fostermom, so even with the food element, you think it's just bratty behavior? I can put up with that! I can stick to this if that is all it is, even if it is trying. 

Lloyd's Mom, I am SO HAPPY, and I mean SO HAPPY that gorgeous Lloyd has made a turnaround. That is the best news on so many levels. Do you think it was time away that helped or have you noticed a change overall as he is getting older? You are right-- some people just have easier dogs. I know this is largely due to my being an inexperienced owner as well.

BuddyinFrance, would you please tell me how you handle it when Buddy bites your 10 y.o.? How do you get him to stop? 

CPC1972, No, he is not neutered. I just read a study today in which it says it has absolutely no effect-- actually the dogs in which this behavior DID increase were in spayed females! I was surprised. Does Chloe still bite and leave bruises daily, or has she settled down? Kevin has never done this daily . . .we've gone weeks without incident. Unpredictable. So, when it happens, it is very disturbing! 

So, I guess I will keep at it, keep working on the muzzle acceptance, etc. and see if, once the teenage phase passes, it really IS just a phase. I also noticed that Kevin is extremely tired today-- we kept him up much later than normal last night but woke him up on time, so maybe that was the issue. While I always feed him before walks, I am going to feed him even more so that I am certain he isn't hungry. 

I will also try not to take his biting personally, which I do. Tomorrow night he starts his agility class with my daughter as his handler. We'll see how he does. 

Thank you again!


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

If he isn't neutered you need to do that. It may not help but in your case it is worth a try.

I do know if Chloe was wound up enough and wasn't leashed she probably would put bruises. Saturday I was home with her by myself for four hours and by the third hour she went on a ten minute rough play episode where she jumped on me in my chair bit and licked me to death like there was no tomorrow. She didn't leave any marks but it was annoying. There has been a couple of times she has got my niece but we were right there to stop it and she never leaves any marks. The only time she leaves bruises is when my mom is outside and she jumps and nips her arms.

without being in your house to see this all sounds normal. Except for the leash walking which you can work on. I agree about quit taking the treats on your walks.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Just remember all pups at this age are exciteable. Those are the times Chloe is leashed or behind a baby gate with the kids. Aidan only gets to play with her when she is in a calm state. Your tears are normal too. You won't believe the time my mom has been on the verge of tears with Chloe. With Jake she was ready to leave the gate open so he would run off. Off course she would never of done this but your frustrations are real.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Murphy would jump and nip me all the time when he was that age. I actually hated to walk him! I sit on the couch and he'd lunge at me! I was told to put white vinegar in a small spray bottle and when he started his routine I'd spray it in front of him (not in his face as you don't want to get it in his eyes) and he actually got a spray into his mouth a few times. After awhile he just had to see the bottle and he'd stop. I had a few bad months with Murphy (there were times I didn't even like him) but he's now the sweetest, calmest most lovable dog anyone would want.


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## rob1 (Sep 21, 2009)

He sounds totally normal to me. Man, Lucky could be a PITA at that age. He didn't bite on me so much as his leash, but when he got started tugging on it, he would get a glazed look and 'go deaf'. It was all I could do to handle him, and I'm 5'9. 

But you've had two trainers tell you it's not aggression, he's not breaking the skin, and he's right in that bratty age range. 

I'd keep doing what you're doing, up the training, don't leave him alone with the kids, and power through it. I also wouldn't neuter now, especially if you're starting agility classes. 

Also- a good sit. A good sit is invaluable. Practice it a lot, every day. Practice it when on leash. Do not ever take 'no' for an answer. Eventually they'll actually sit, even when they're hyped up. Oh happy day!

As to agility classes- I think it could be great, but could also be tough for a 10 year old. My 10 year old nephew has done a few classes with Lucky (who was already competing in AKC agility) and he had fun with it, but I can also tell he's still intimidated by Lucky. He treats him by tossing the food at him and has a real tendency to repeat himself a lot.

Anyway- point is, agility can be a lot for a 10 year old with a young dog. If she gets overwhelmed, might try her in a more basic obedience class (and you do the agility one).

She may do great in it- just don't let her get discouraged if it's really tough. It's a lot to learn for the kid and the dog and they might need to work on core obedience more if she can't get him to focus and listen.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

All the muzzle means is that you have an orally fixated puppy (like all retrievers) who's gotten in the habit of using his mouth to get a reaction out of people. With Goldens, all attention is good attention, right? It doesn't have to mean anything more than that...

Did you have a chance to look at that link LJilly provided? It's really good. Guest Post: Take the Two Week Muzzle Challenge | The Muzzle Up! Project

You know, it wouldn't be at all surprising if your previous experience hasn't scarred you when a dog starts acting like this. Your child was bitten, and like any good parent, you feel responsible and are assuming you should have seen it coming. So now you're hyper vigilant, and, like most Goldens, Kevin is an energy reflector...he mirrors what's coming from you. You're tense, so he's tense. It's completely understandable.

If the boarding facility would give him playtime with stable, appropriate dogs, it might be the best thing for everyone. My other dogs are a big help with telling Griffey when he's over the line...and other dogs speak the language better than we do.

Big hug.

P.S. Yes, Griffey is mouthing my hands and arms more now that he's test driving his new enormous fangs! He pretty much looks just like this dog...


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## Goldylover2 (May 1, 2014)

Anele, where are you located? There's a great trainer in Northeastern Ohio that would take your dog and teach him the basics that would stop this type of behavior. I took my pup there because he was out of control at times. If your not close to Ohio. You need to find a trainer in your area that will train your dog. Not one that visits your house for an hour. You need to leave him with someone who knows how to fix the problems your currently having. I know how frustrated you are. Time for some professional help.


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## Mom Fischer (Dec 3, 2014)

If you are in MN K-9 Coach has a day program to teach dogs what they need. They go home at night.

Hugs to you I have no great advice but at times Lucy was a real pill now she is 9 months and some of those annoying puppy things are getting better.


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## Bwilson (Mar 25, 2014)

I am sorry you are going through this situation. It is a personal choice for your family to make. I don't think by any means your dogs is aggressive and had read through some of your posts from other threads in the past. I think you have a very confused puppy on your hands at this moment. If you want this to work in your family you will have to change your perception towards him and your attitude in dealing with him. Also the size of the person doesn't compute to a dog. I have a 120 lb rottie that if he wanted to could drag me down the street but doesn't because in his mind I am a lot stronger then that. My husband he pulls him down the street and he is a lot stronger then me because my Rottweiler doesn't really respect him. You need yo get rid of the treats you have been feeding him treats to get him to calm down. You are only telling him if I act bad I get treats to diffuse the situation. I wouldn't muzzle and try a gentle leader or another tool my personal opinion. My Rottweiler was neutered and still was leaving bruises on me when we went through this stage and younger and eventually grew out of it neutering didn't make this not happen. You need to mama bear your children and make it clear he can't touch them like that. I took the bites from my Rottweiler but he knew clear from day one no one else would deal with that craziness. Some dogs can't handle tug of war at a young age mine couldn't and that caused issues with grab the arm. I would stop this interaction one day he will be able to. When bringing a puppy into a home with a family the children should not have to not be able to make noice or be excited. This should have been addressed early on so will be harder at this point to deal with in getting him back into the groove of how people are day to day. If your up to changing how you deal and ride it out I would keep him. If not I would send back to the breeder while he is still young and malleable. I wish you the best of luck on your choice do what you think your family can handle.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

BWilson, I'm sure your intentions are good, but you should know that there isn't a person this board who has worked more diligently than Anele has with her dog. She has involved multiple professionals and consulted every training site out there...and she's put in hours and hours of work every day.

If you're not familiar with the entire history, it's easy to say things like, "This should have been addressed early on," and pass a lot of judgment, but it really isn't warranted here. Dog owners don't come more dedicated than Anele, and until you've done everything "right" and still have a dog with issues, you can't really understand what it's like.

The Internet is a wonderful thing, but it does tend to turn every issue into black or white and reality is usually more complicated than that.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

If you know anyone with a senior dog, they are the best teachers for a bratty teenager.

I'm speaking from my own knowledge. My kids have put up with lots of stuff but when it comes down to it those brats receive knowledge from their own kind.

Dogs teach each other in their own language more than we can, JMO.

How they teach is still beyond me and I think I have gotten pretty good at dog language. It's remarkable how old ones teach.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Noreaster couldn't be any more right about Anele's hard work. She has definitely been a great source of information and comfort to the rest of us who are dealing with this issue. Agreed, it is easy to read one post and make some assumptions, but none of them are true in this case. 



Noreaster said:


> BWilson, I'm sure your intentions are good, but you should know that there isn't a person this board who has worked more diligently than Anele has with her dog. She has involved multiple professionals and consulted every training site out there...and she's put in hours and hours of work every day.
> 
> If you're not familiar with the entire history, it's easy to say things like, "This should have been addressed early on," and pass a lot of judgment, but it really isn't warranted here. Dog owners don't come more dedicated than Anele, and until you've done everything "right" and still have a dog with issues, you can't really understand what it's like.
> 
> The Internet is a wonderful thing, but it does tend to turn every issue into black or white and reality is usually more complicated than that.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

I'm not sure I feel right about commenting on this because I believe I am one of those people that probably really gets under your skin right now, because of how easy of a time I have had with Rundle. But, I just wanted to say I'm glad you decided to stick with it for now. Yes, seeing a muzzle on a dog can be alarming for other people. They usually often jump to conclusions that this must be an aggressive dog. And although this perception can be mild embarrassing, it really doesn't matter what other people think because you are taking responsibility as an owner, and that is something all of us here can respect. I definitely think you would regret your decision to give Kevin away not knowing whether this is a faze or not. I strongly believe that what is happening to Kevin could have happened to any one of us. Its always a gamble bringing a dog into your home. We do the best we can to pick good breeders, good parents, the best behaved puppy in the litter... and once their home we start putting in the hours of work training our pups to the best of our ability. Although all of these things are good, they do not guarantee a healthy, easy, well-behaved dog. Some dogs are just more difficult. Knowing this when I brought Rundle home, I made a promise to myself that regardless of what happens I would do whatever it takes to make it work. I feel you have done that Kevin so far. And even though you are exasperated now, I encourage you to remember that promise. Because I really feel that you have more in your to give and that you will regret your decision if you walk away now. You can do this! I know you can!


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Anele said:


> Lloyd's Mom, I am SO HAPPY, and I mean SO HAPPY that gorgeous Lloyd has made a turnaround. That is the best news on so many levels. Do you think it was time away that helped or have you noticed a change overall as he is getting older? You are right-- some people just have easier dogs. I know this is largely due to my being an inexperienced owner as well.


Anele - I think leaving him with someone else was probably the biggest help in turning the corner. The family I leave him with watches other dogs and I think he learns a lot from them as well about "normal" dog behavior. 

However, I'm sure it was a combo of him getting older and me trying EVERYTHING I could think of to get beyond the issue. As you know we went to a trainer who recommended a pronged collar. After that one session with that trainer, he was like a different dog. I do have a pronged collar at home and still have not used it. He has had a few episodes since then where he's gotten overly excited and pulled at my clothes, but has not gone for my hands or arms like he had in the past. 

I've seen Lloyd go through so many phases, I always wonder what new odd behavior or problem he'll present me with this week. So, I feel like we're on a roller coaster and I'm buckled in and am hoping we can all hold on! 

I don't think I've stopped worrying since the day I brought him home. He went from being a hoover vacuum cleaner, literally swallowing everything he could get his mouth on, including another dog's collar and name tag at puppy socialization class (required a scope procedure and $1000s of dollars in vet bills) to not wanting to walk on a leash (literally seemed like I had to drag him around) to jumping and biting me while walking to humping me to now barking and growling at other dogs (Boxers only). Seriously, it's been exhausting. 

I actually went to a high school reunion last weekend and met up with some old classmates. One of them had a 10 week old golden retriever who he said he leaves outside unattended while he was gone. He said the dog spends most of the time on under his deck eating god knows what. He said they got the dog to look cute and be cuddly. I could tell that guy had not a worry in the world the way he talked about the dog. He said the dog hasn't been potty trained and they are constantly cleaning up poop and pee. I can't even comprehend how someone could be so laissez faire about their dog. Or why they would get one to begin with! No real point here except to vent and share to reinforce that you are a WONDERFUL dog owner. Kevin is so lucky to be with you.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Anele said:


> Lloyd's Mom, I am SO HAPPY, and I mean SO HAPPY that gorgeous Lloyd has made a turnaround. That is the best news on so many levels. Do you think it was time away that helped or have you noticed a change overall as he is getting older? You are right-- some people just have easier dogs. I know this is largely due to my being an inexperienced owner as well


Anele - I think leaving him with someone else was probably the biggest help in turning the corner. The family I leave him with watches other dogs and I think he learns a lot from them as well about "normal" dog behavior. 

However, I'm sure it was a combo of him getting older and me trying EVERYTHING I could think of to get beyond the issue. As you know we went to a trainer who recommended a pronged collar. After that one session with that trainer, he was like a different dog. I do have a pronged collar at home and still have not used it. He has had a few episodes since then where he's gotten overly excited and pulled at my clothes, but has not gone for my hands or arms like he had in the past. 

I've seen Lloyd go through so many phases, I always wonder what new odd behavior or problem he'll present me with this week. So, I feel like we're on a roller coaster and I'm buckled in and am hoping we can all hold on! 

I don't think I've stopped worrying since the day I brought him home. He went from being a hoover vacuum cleaner, literally swallowing everything he could get his mouth on, including another dog's collar and name tag at puppy socialization class (required a scope procedure and $1000s of dollars in vet bills) to not wanting to walk on a leash (literally seemed like I had to drag him around) to jumping and biting me while walking to humping me to now barking and growling at other dogs (Boxers only). Seriously, it's been exhausting. 

I actually went to a high school reunion last weekend and met up with some old classmates. One of them had a 10 week old golden retriever who he said he leaves outside unattended while he was gone. He said the dog spends most of the time on under his deck eating god knows what. He said they got the dog to look cute and be cuddly. I could tell that guy had not a worry in the world the way he talked about the dog. He said the dog hasn't been potty trained and they are constantly cleaning up poop and pee. I can't even comprehend how someone could be so laissez faire about their dog. Or why they would get one to begin with! No real point here except to vent and share to reinforce that you are a WONDERFUL dog owner. Kevin is so lucky to be with you.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

GoldenCamper said:


> If you know anyone with a senior dog, they are the best teachers for a bratty teenager.
> 
> I'm speaking from my own knowledge. My kids have put up with lots of stuff but when it comes down to it those brats receive knowledge from their own kind.
> 
> ...


This is a good point my sisters lab mix is thirteen. When Chloe started hanging out with him she would jump on him and want him to play. A couple gentle little growls and barks she doesn't mess with him anymore. But you do have to know the dog and know he isn't agressive. Chloe plays a little with her other senior but leaves the other one alone.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I am also one that since you have worked so hard I would neuter him. What do you have to lose. If it works your better off. If not your just where you are now.

I think you are so nervous that his behavior will turn into the other dog you had to rehome. But rest assured it doesn't sound at all like a aggressive puppy. He seems to be feeding off your nervousness. 

I remember a post someone posted about expectations. Remembering not to expect to much to soon

It is a handful with a pup and young kids. Jake never had kids around all day so he was naturally for the most part a calm puppy. When there are no kids here Chloe is calm as can be. Maybe a tiny bit of jumping and biting. But young kids really excite a young pup. We are actually thinking about taking the kids and doing a couple private sessions to work on her manners with them.


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## 1oldparson (Mar 5, 2013)

I just want to encourage you. Our Ginger was a voracious land shark who drew blood on many occasions, mine. She left my wife alone. There were times when I thought she should have been an attack dog named Cujo. We have no kids at home but, if we did, I'm not sure we could have kept her. We took her to training every week but stalled at a certain point. We did get someone else to take her to the next step when she was about 9 months old. That turned her around within a couple of weeks. She's 2 years old now and very sweet. The only memory of Cujo are the scars on my hands. In Ginger's case, it was a matter of training and maturing.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Goldylover2 said:


> Anele, where are you located? There's a great trainer in Northeastern Ohio that would take your dog and teach him the basics that would stop this type of behavior. I took my pup there because he was out of control at times. If your not close to Ohio. You need to find a trainer in your area that will train your dog. Not one that visits your house for an hour. You need to leave him with someone who knows how to fix the problems your currently having. I know how frustrated you are. Time for some professional help.



I know that you, Anele, do not want to physically correct Kevin. Maybe Kevin spending a week or two with someone who will may change his world view.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Chritty said:


> I know that you, Anele, do not want to physically correct Kevin. Maybe Kevin spending a week or two with someone who will may change his world view.


If she's not going to physically correct him - and I'm not in any way saying she should - I doubt she'd send him to someone who would.

If you don't believe in spanking your kid are you going to hire someone to spank him for you? :no:


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

laprincessa said:


> If she's not going to physically correct him - and I'm not in any way saying she should - I doubt she'd send him to someone who would.
> 
> If you don't believe in spanking your kid are you going to hire someone to spank him for you? :no:



I agree with you in principle but if the dog is going to be given up then it may land in a home where they will incorporate a balanced approach. 

Why not try it before it gets to the point of re-homing? It may help open Anele up to a world that she does not see value in. 

The only thing left to lose by not giving this a go is Kevin.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I am so sorry- I have felt for you with the trials and the teeth....
I don't remember who your breeder is but surely you don't lose all your $$ if you have to send him back? I've taken back puppies before, health in the family or divorce usually- or new baby- and I always give the people half of their money back if I can rehome the dog for that much- and usually they have done classes, so it's an easy placement for me. Everyone happy...
IF he's accustomed to the muzzle, start using it. Use 'eh eh' a lot too- and stop treating him for experiences he should be dealing with on their own without reward, like walking. It may be that your daughter's chemistry is betraying her fear and he is picking up on it... and it may also be that he is just a horrid young dog who'd be a great adult dog but getting there without help will be hard. Older dogs, especially bitches, can put a teen puppy in his place really quickly. Watching a well behaved dog go through novice routine is a good idea from his crate. Dogs do learn from watching others and what gets them the goodies.... I wish I could help you.... the plus as I see it is I know you have tried, and I don't recall him breaking skin- that's a good thing. A 50# puppy jumping on a child can be dangerous, mostly because the child usually reacts and the puppy may see that as encouraging or it may stimulate prey drive into action. And I agree that some punishers may be in order. A prong might help you to take a walk that he is forced to behave on. ..even 'eh eh' is a punisher to a dog who's attuned to his owner.


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## Bwilson (Mar 25, 2014)

Even if she sends it to someone that will physically touch the dog whether heavy handed or giving it a more meaningful correction it will only work if the owner follows through with the trainer techniques used. The senior dog could work but would better be implemented if it was a senior dog you knew very well. We went to visit my in laws and they had a teenage bully pit in there home. He would jump on them or do something my dog didn't feel was appropriate he would block the puppy and move him on.


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## gabrielsark (Nov 11, 2009)

I am coming in late to this but where are you located? I can tell you what to do and it should have been done the first time he showed the aggression. But, most people do not know how to do it. I would like to tell you what to do and then we can put it out there if you succeed. I am a breeder and learned this from a trainer and have helped many people who just do not know what to do. The dog does not know it is bad and has gotten away with it and he needs to know it is wrong. tell me where you are located and if you want, send me your phone number or email...


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

gabrielsark said:


> I am coming in late to this but where are you located? I can tell you what to do and it should have been done the first time he showed the aggression. But, most people do not know how to do it. I would like to tell you what to do and then we can put it out there if you succeed. I am a breeder and learned this from a trainer and have helped many people who just do not know what to do. The dog does not know it is bad and has gotten away with it and he needs to know it is wrong. tell me where you are located and if you want, send me your phone number or email...


Get real please. Perhaps it would be better for you to share your magic solution with us all here, rather than ask someone that you do not know to send you their phone number.


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## Eabeal (Feb 9, 2014)

I am so sorry you are going through this. It is tougher with kids, mine are 12 and 14 and they still need help with him sometimes to follow through with commands, etc. I will let you know that Duke has jumped and left bruises when he is wound up, but that it has improved so much after one year of age, and every month after that it continues to improve. It rarely happens now. 7-11 months was rough. Our trainer never thought it was aggression either. Also, we found the value of exercise, exercise and more exercise. As new dog owners, we really struggled at times, but we see great improvement and calmness with age. Sometimes knowing you are not alone really helps. Sending hugs your way!


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

gabrielsark said:


> I am coming in late to this but where are you located? I can tell you what to do and it should have been done the first time he showed the aggression. But, most people do not know how to do it. I would like to tell you what to do and then we can put it out there if you succeed. I am a breeder and learned this from a trainer and have helped many people who just do not know what to do. The dog does not know it is bad and has gotten away with it and he needs to know it is wrong. tell me where you are located and if you want, send me your phone number or email...


What a troll, send me you telephone number and email in you first post?

Crawl back under your bridge.

Your post is like seeing responses to my Craiglist ads selling material crap. You might want to actually try posting something thoughtful with your background in your first post you idiot.

Prove me wrong please in a articulate manner with links your dogs pedigrees, your background of training etc. and I will apologize.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I read some of this on my lunchbreak.... on my tablet which I hate typing on so did not say anything then. Have not read through the more recent posts, and maybe somebody has helped... 

But really huge thing that's going through my head is my mom is very sensitive about being scratched or mouthed. This is part of the reason why she always refers to golden retriever puppies as puppies from hell. Because they do get excited and hyped up - and that's usually paws and mouths flailing. 

Add to that - my Jacks was one of the puppies where I had to awkwardly explain to my boss I had an emergency at home and had to leave work to go home and stand up for my puppy who was on his way to the vet because my mom felt there was something wrong with him. She said he was aggressive and wouldn't stop going after our then 12 year old dog and then going after my sister. It sounded terrible on the phone, but I got home and explained to my mom that he was teething, he was playing with our other dog who was too sweet to put him in his place and the two had to be kept separate when I wasn't there, and he was giving "love nibbles" to my sister (not the same thing as mouthing). I was right and my oldest sister was wrong, but literally my mom had to rush my dog over to the vet and have the vet tell her exactly what I told her before she believed me.  

Jacks was one of those puppies who mouthed a lot and pawed a lot all through puppyhood, adolescence, and as a young dog. Even as a 7.5 year old - when he gets hyped up, he mouths and paws. It's just his attitude and how he communicates his joy and excitement. 

Bertie is very different from Jacks and doesn't mouth or paw when excited. He is one of those that "FLIES" and twirls and wants to be touched. He's more likely to step on your feet than anything else. When he was a puppy - my mom had a much easier time when I was at work. 

Not every golden puppy will be a Bertie though. Only Bertie and my Danny were the "not-mouthy" types of puppies. The others were pretty bad. In fact, my Sammy was the puppy that nobody wanted to walk or touch, because he'd either be pulling your arm out of the socket or he'd be flailing and air-snapping at you. If he actually made contact with your skin - you would bleed. And actually, he was our dog who bit 2 members of my family pretty in the same 24 hours back when he was a young dog. My one sister needed stitches and the other (who was very little) probably should have had stitches as well on her back and leg, but we kids banded together and swore to never tell our parents. That dog never bit again in his entire life and he was a "babysitter" dog - meaning kids could be climbing all over him, and he'd never growl or bite or even look stressed. 

A lot of your golden retrievers out there will have similar stuff happen. The more inexperienced the home and or lacking a dominant trainer (meaning somebody the dog sees as an authority as opposed to a playmate), the more problems people will have during that adolescent/young dog stage. Generally, given training and time, the dogs grow out of it - and become those 7+ year olds whose owners can't remember them ever being bad. 

You do have to work at it - my personal feeling though is you need to have somebody in the family who is calm, fair, but has the dog's respect. There's some people who are naturally good communicators with dogs.... but others have to attend classes and have somebody helping them communicate clearly with their dogs. There is no magic overnight fix to any dog training. It just takes time, patience, and effort. 

And this is my opinion, but correcting a dog one way or another is probably a whole lot less discomfort for the dog than wearing a muzzle and being kept separated from his family. I do suggest obedience classes (not agility) to work on calm leadership and communication with your dog. Whether it is you or one of your older children (not sure how old your kids are, but I'd assumed older than 10 for training dogs) - there has to be a consistent handler with the dog, spending a lot of quality time working with the dog on a daily basis before you start seeing results.

*** Funny note to add.... a frequent thing my neighbors probably hear on those days that I have my front window open.... "JACKY GET OFF YOUR BROTHER!" LOL. I'm very happy that my boy with bilateral hip dysplasia is so agile and active and just feeling good, but he still is one of those dogs who LOVES playing and rough housing. If our collie is around, it's not a huge deal because leave it to him, he would keep the goldens in separate corners of the room. If it's just the two goldens hanging out - Jacks is usually instigating play time. And usually has me hollering at him to stop chewing on his brother and go sit down somewhere. Even so, I do think that all of this is a sign of health and happiness with these dogs. If they are very quiet and mopey and non-active, I worry.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My very calm, lovable 8 year old Brady was the puppy from hell. We called him a landshark. There were times when I was in tears too. My girls at that time were 4, 8 & 9. All of our hands looked like hamburg, all of my kids clothes were ripped. None of this was aggression, it was just him being a golden retriever puppy.

We tried every trick in the book. Finally, my husband got fed up, and bit him back. He never bit my husband again. About a month later, he stopped biting me. I had to change my voice tone to control him. Third he stopped biting my four year old. She would just put him in his place.

The two old girls, would just encourage that type of play by their whiny screaching and fleeing.

I would say around 8 to 9 months all the sudden one day his food intake decreased, he seemed calmer, wanted to cuddle - was a different dog. I almost made an appt to see if he was sick. He would occasionally do the bitey chasing thing with the two older ones, but was no longer hurting them. He stopped it completely when we brought home another golden puppy. We now have three! 

We did not get him neutered until he was 18 months. 

Another thing, when I used to take him for walks, and we were getting closer to our house, he would roll on his back, so I could not move him. I also had moments of tears, wrestling to get him back on his feet, trying to carry him, sometimes almost dragging him. It was his way of being in control. I would stop, take a big breath, tell him in a stern voice "I am the boss, not you!" and in time that stopped too.

Please call your breeder. I do think some puppies and litters are worse than others. The next two puppies I had were easy, but my kids were also older, I learned with Brady, and they were around more dogs.

I did send Brady to doggie daycare a couple times, and he would be good for the next two days. I also noticed that the day after classes he was always good too. So maybe without class or doggie daycare, I was not stimulating his mind enough or getting him exercised enough.

Today, he is the most gentle dog I know.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Anele, first of all, my heart hurts for you. I know you are honestly torn about this.

Secondly, you NEED to relax yourself and your mind. He IS NOT the dog that bit your baby. He has AMAZING bite inhibition. Aggressive dogs break skin. Kevin does not. You are, not intentionally, teaching your children to fear him. He can sense it.

When I first got Z, I am was ADAMANT that she would never be physically corrected. She was hell puppy. I moved in with my then-fiancé and three other guys when she was 4-5 months old. They wasted no time in using well-deserved physical corrections - gentle butt and nose swats when she bit, or stole food off plates. It took maybe two months before she figured out what was going on. I was capable of being fair, but my calm only lasted to a point, my tolerance was extremely high, and I was almost incapable of being stern. Now, it only takes a stern word and Zelda stops what she's doing - physical corrections are very rare. We also lived with Pepper, a little bitch of a dog who did not and still does not tolerate Zelda being rambunctious. This 7-pound dog took no crap from my 60 pound dog. 

I use a pinch collar with her and it works wonders. As a pup, I stood on it when she began to jump and bite. Now, she wears it on walks because it puts her in "working mode".

Zelda is still very, very mouthy. If she's bored, she will play-growl at and begin nibbling on our hands.

I think it's ok. He isn't your previous dog. He isn't going to give your baby stitches (with his teeth, anyway - no guarantees about accidental headbutts). Breathe. Do you really have to walk him? There are other ways to exercise, that don't tether him to you or focus him on you.

I feel like he doesn't understand the boundaries. When he starts to act crazy - before he even hits the point - what do you usually do? Can you usually recognize it? I know you've talked about it before, but I can't remember what your current interventions are.


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## Bwilson (Mar 25, 2014)

Noreaster and Anele or any others that feel I was judging. Didn't mean for it to come out that way. Was just trying to give out tips to help her implement a better plan that present techniques weren't working. The whole should have been done at an early stage was in reference in size didn't feel it had to be said that the size difference makes it more challenging now and he will only get bigger and to take that into consideration on her choice if she wants to continue. Wasn't passing judgement on what she was doing before through her posts in the past because different techniques work for people. At this point she has hit a roadblock and feeling defeated I have been here there is light at the end of a tunnel but you get there. Puppies are like children and I am pretty sure Anele wouldn't let her children exhibit this sort of behavior to each other. He really needs someone to lead him now and give more meaningful corrections with your family or another family. In dog training some dogs need to know it is black or it is white no grey area with them or they will run with it.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I totally agree with the Black and White. We're not just speaking a different language then they do but also trying to cross through a species barrier. Treating them like they are human children in this type of situation is disastrous in my opinion


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## Bwilson (Mar 25, 2014)

Not completely comparing the two but you have to have a mom voice for both. If I let my three year old slap me then give her candy she will do it again. I have to guide her to being a part of society and from right from wrong. I have to be the bad guy sometimes and discipline. The puppy has not got this picture yet of what is expected yet. Was trying to give a comparison to how she deals with her children and implement some of that leadership to the puppy.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Anele I totally feel for what you're going through I really do.

But.

My dad said this to me once... which stuck in my stupid fat head...



> “If one person calls you an ass, ignore them. If five people call you an ass, buy a saddle”


What that means is. 
*Everyone* here is telling you one thing... ONE thing, and this ONE thing will fix your problem...

If you ignore what *Everyone* here is telling you...

Then yes... please give this dog up. 

Before his behaviour become intrenched into his brain, It really feels like we're travelling in circles. You refusing to correct the dog and us getting so frustrated with you for ignoring us and then having to read post after post about how you have a uncontrollable dog.

I'm very sorry I felt the need to post this, And I'm very sorry if you take offence to what I wrote... I just know I'll sleep better at night knowing I've said it.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Marcus, you're one of my favorites, but I'm going to gently argue your point...some of the replies are advocating in favor of physical corrections. Many are not even mentioning them, including mine. Certainly not all.

Now that I reread the OP, the fact is that Anele specifically asked not to have more training suggestions, because she's exhausted and discouraged and disheartened, and it's completely understandable.

So, Anele, I hope you get something positive from this thread...I think it's just such a kneejerk human response to try to fix things...I apologize.

Big hug.


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

Anele, while I didn't get to read all of the advice given above, post's by Cubbysan, Norester, and Megora sound similar to my experiences with my Golden's.
My 14 year old male, as a puppy decided it was a good idea to assert himself as pack leader by heavily biting me on the wrist (which drew blood). Like most males would, I responded heavy handedly and from that point on I was never even fake bitten to his final days. He was the most protective, loving buddy I could have ever had. He just needed to know who was the leader. 
My 14 Month old girl was a monster child. She would get her feelings hurt when I mildly corrected her nipping and slashing, so I decided to allow her freedom up to 1 year to mature and for a bond based on trust. Once I could tell she and I had bonded, and she could better understand my anger at her behavior, I could use a lighter handed correction more appropriate to her size and age. She totally gets it now! Her "play" biting doesn't even resemble a bite, and certainly wouldn't break even a newborn babies skin. This was the same puppy who at 7 mo. was so careless at play that she would leave cuts and bruises on my elderly mothers arms. 
While I know your situation with a child is different, your puppy is just a careless child who will mature if given time.
In the meantime, carry a small plastic water bottle filled with about 30 pennies, and if he jumps or bites roughly, pull the bottle and shake. Watch how startled and confused he gets when you misbehave to him! I think it has the same startling effect that an e-coller has when used properly. 
*Good luck* if you choose to wait it out, but I'm sure you won't regret giving your puppy time to mature.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Now that I reread the OP, the fact is that Anele specifically asked not to have more training suggestions, because she's exhausted and discouraged and disheartened, and it's completely understandable



You are also one of my favs Noreaster but it's hard to respect that wish when the subject of giving a puppy up is presented. A lot of us have been following Anele from the very start. It's hard to sit idle when Kevin's fate is at stake


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

Anele,

I understand your frustration and you contemplating "throwing in the towel". I'm not here to give you any training advice as you seem to have had plenty of that already. There are members here who have given you great advice and words of encouragement and I hope you can continue should you choose to keep your dog. 

Puppyhood tests the patience of every owner. Maverick was as calm as a puppy could be and I had gotten so used to his calm nature that when he hit "that age" around 9mo, there was times he would completely ignore my commands when we did some basic training, and it was frustrating. All I can say is we've all been in your shoes at one time or another regarding in patience (some of us have seen the same behaviors), and although the times vary, majority of us here at GRF who been through puppyhood can relate and we can definitely sympathize with you. 

I know you're at your wits end and am contemplating re-homing. Should you feel that is the best option for both of you, then by all means, please find him a good loving home as well. Should you choose to ride it out, feel free to vent and express your frustrations, it's what we're here for as well. I've heard of "terror" Golden puppies that have grown up to be great adult dogs, so through all this frustration you're going through, there is indeed hope. Keep your head up, take a deep breath, and contemplate the two paths in front of you.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Anele, there are people who would be willing to help, but most of us don't know where in the "Midwest" you live. Maybe just a more specific location? Like central Iowa or South-west Missouri (just thinking of the two places my sister who lives in the true Midwest has lived). 

The one thing I would say is that either you or your husband need to be the person to take Kevin to a training class not your daughter. I am a huge fan of continious training classes and lots and lots of training practice daily. Every time you start feeling like he may be amping up, start training, simple things like a sit and down (puppy push-ups). This does not require any punishment.

Also, please talk to Kevin's breeder and if you do decide to re-home Kevin (which may wind up being your best solution), send him back to his breeder.


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## Bwilson (Mar 25, 2014)

When reading her first post was going to see how the thread went. People asked questions started giving tip or a different angle to look at the situation. Anele took it eloquently as always answered away and asked away. Ended sounding more positive at the end. I think many saw this as an opportunity to keep building on that forward momentum and try to add to it or bring out a new perspective. If she hadn't responded or said only a yes or no I think the thread would have went into another direction. As Marcus said every week and for awhile we have been reading thread after thread of his journey and may feel more emotionally involved then one that never posts much of what is going on in the house. If right or not if liked or not I have been following his progress along with others agreeing or disagreeing. I hope Anele can find answers or help in this situation.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Marcus, you're one of my favorites, but I'm going to gently argue your point...


And that's what makes this forum special... the difference of opinion... Have at it, my friend, I can take it, and welcome it. differing opinion is how people learn...

Example if I flat out refused to listen to advice from this forum Ben would still be pooping all over my kitchen floor in a tsunami of poo and wee. And shredding my arms to the bone...

In this thread. I posted my frustrations as I couldn't bite my tongue any longer after reading 5 pages of people trying to help and also her previous thread about the same issue, all fallen on deaf ears...

To that extent I'm advising she gives the dog up if she no longer has the patience to wait this phase (and it is a phase, but if un-dealt with will turn into something more nasty) of puppyhood out.

[just like children who's parents wrap them in cotton wool, and think their kid can do no wrong...]


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

I'm sorry I somehow missed six pages in a day.

Some homes and some puppies are not always the right match, not because the family is illsuited to a dog or that there is necessarily anything "wrong" with the dog. On one hand some people do seem to rehome dogs too easily - but on the other, there are feelings that only 'bad' people or 'uncaring' or whatever else people rehome dogs. 

One of my first dogs was very similar. I kept him and regret that choice. My life would have been so different (for the better) if I had not kept him. At times I felt unsafe. Other times he was doing frantic biting and it could last up to 90 minutes in a class (never as long at home, though it could go on and on). We were able to work through it, his behavior did decrease over time, medications helped, and he later was diagnosed as extremely behaviorally abnormal. It's an experience I wish on no one. At the time, the thought of rehoming him barely crossed my mind. Online forums (possibly here - 14 some years ago!) had advice ranging from corrections will make it better (he bit the trainer who did it), more exercise (over 3 hours of exercise per day. He was more athletic). More training (2-3 formal classes a week and training from me multiple times per day). I was told he was probably a normal dog and I was just unsuited for a dog. I was told to euthanize him for being dangerous. I was told to rehome him, but no one and no rescue would take him due to the bite history. I could tell a thousand stories about that dog. But even now, looking back, I wish I had not done it. I wish friends, family, the trainers, etc had intervened.

From what you have said, I do not feel that Kevin is likely unsafe (liability)to rehome - and in a different environment he may behave differently - purely because it's different (vs anything 'right' or 'wrong'). 

I hope you get the support that you deserve - in whatever ways are appropriate.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Just today my nephew took chloe outside to play. The first thing my mom said was I am not out there. He actually chased her and made a game of it. We all want to give our puppies freedom with young children but it just isnt going to happen over night. Its allright to not let your pup outside when your children are playing and you cant be out there. Just today the kids wanted to play on thr swingset and chloe had to stay inside. We also have to know what triggers them. When the kids start making her excited they have to go in the playroom until she calms down.

If you feel that it is to much you cant ride out the puppy stage then rehoming may be your best option. Although I still believe this is teen behavior. Maybe he is to much for your family
I bet you could find a excellent home with someone on this board.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

One very interesting thing with Brady was he never did this to visitors that came to the house, it was only to his family. I am sure he somehow thought of us as his littermates.


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

Hi Anele, you asked me in an earlier post how I got Buddy to stop "biting" my 10 year old ( I actually have 10 year old twins so double the excitment for our pup!). As others have all said before me, like your dog, Buddy does not really bite although to Watch him it may look like he is and he does show his teeth sometimes. But he can actually bruise when he gets carried away. I had a dog trainer work directly with the twins to put a "response plan" in place as we dramatically called it!! The trainer made them practice with Buddy over and over again, she did a lot of role plays with them too, until the twins reaction became second nature. This was important because as you know first hand our kids tend to react by squealing at the top of their voice "Mum Buddy bit!!" me then bursting into tears. Buddy LOVES that, he thinks its their "lets play harder" sign...! Anyway to get to the point the trainer trained the kids so that they responded same way everytime on time. Basically as soon as he starts to get too much for them they :

immediately and firmly move slightly forward "into" his space, if they are standing up they take a step forward, sitting down they push forward towards him. It's really important that they don't back away, even slightly, followed by a firm :

"NO! No biting". She taught them how to use a deeper tone than their natural one and how important it is to be firm and calm and not squeal. then

Immediately put him in a sit position. He has a firm sit command fortunately. I think the firm sit command is critical. then 

They stand or sit stock still, don't move arms legs anything, avoid eye contact and totally ignore him whilst they count slowly to 10 (good tip because kids can't judge how long too wait)

When they feel ready they invite him to carry on playing but always by diverting to a softer game, so that they set him up to suceed rather than risk him repeating exactly what he just did.

He gets one chance and one chance only. Second fault he is separated from the family in time out!!

Probably sounds very military to you but I personally found it fantastic to have the trainer work with the twins. She modified even the slightest problem with their body language and voice command. They felt proud and grown up being involved. And the repetition means that they go into autopilot when he acts out. Including when we are out walking. They walk him alone quite happily.

Sorry if you have already done all this, I am new to your thread so have not followed the history.

I should add I do not consider Buddy an aggressive dog at all.. he is a big softy...and he has never left teeth marks or broken the skin. He has however left bruises. I don't know how he manages to bruise and not bite actually. And I have always talked to the children about him being boisterous not nasty.

If I have helped even a tiny bit I would be delighted.


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

A PS to my previous post. The trainer won't accept Buddy for agility yet with my 10 year old daughter. She wants Claudia to work more on calmer obedience commands before getting into stuff that gets the dog "excited". I personally would wait a while for the agility. 

Buddy has been sterilised. I know it is the age old debate. But I am convinced, that after his hormones had settled down after the op, that he did become calmer. (That may be a coincidence and due to his age)

Good luck.


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

Sorry, I don't want to dominate this thread but.. I never mentioned this before because I thought people were going to jump on me but here goes...! At our puppy socialisation classes for pups age 3 to 5 months, if the pup gets really over excited and misbehaves biting and/or nasty growling, the trainers have been known to bite the puppy's ear once sharply, and shown the owner how to do the same. They say it mimicks the role of the pup's Mum. I have never had to do it with Buddy but I swear I saw it work with a Young boxer who was all over the place. The trainer bit his ear and the pup looked shocked and then just sat down. I know this is likely to generate a bit of outrage but I am just sharing as an example of how some people correct here!!!


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

Hi Anele

I know you said you don't need any more training advice, but we had a very difficult dog and after trying a certified behaviourist who only wanted to give him sedatives, we changed to a more traditional trainer and it really worked for us. We would hold back his food and feed him from our hands throughout the day, including on his walks. When he is that bit hungry his attention is more on you, especially if he is dependent on you for all his meals. I don't think feeding him more is going to help at all as they will just eat and eat. We found that if we gave Charlie a bowl of food before training, he was so much less responsive to us.

I just wanted to share that one part as it really made a difference to our lives. We got Charlie in October, started that training in Feb, and now in July we are really seeing a massive change in him, but it is a very slow process. Don't expect it to happen overnight, but if you see one tiny improvement each day or week, then you know you are on the right track.

Best of luck to you, Kevin and your family.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

NO training advice from me as you were clear in saying you didn't want any AND i would not be qualified. It's clear that you have a lot of different and conflicting feelings about this difficult situation. I think it's good that you are considering many options. As someone else suggested, maybe your breeder could help out - either long term /OR/ short term in giving you a break. In terms of making a decision about what to do, it might help to have a neutral person sit down with you and your family to discuss pros/cons, possible solutions, etc. a process like that can help with keeping emotion out of the difficult decisions you need to make.
Mostly, I hope you will try to let go of feeling guilty or that you have somehow failed. Sometimes, dogs are not a "good fit" through no fault of anyone. It sounds like you've worked hard to make things work. I don't necessarily think it's time to "give up" but only you and your family will be able to decide that.
Good luck!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Hi Anele,

I'm sorry if this stuff has been discussed in other threads... but here are my questions in trying to understand the situation:

How much hard exercise does Kevin get? Not walking on leash. RUNNING. Off leash, playing with other dogs, chasing a ball, etc. I ask because I know that if my dog was getting just a couple of very short walks on leash, she'd be bouncing off my walls, swinging from the chandeliers, and all OVER me. 

Second, how much is his movement limited during the day? Is he crated in your home while you're all there? This I ask because I wonder if he is just SO FRICKIN EXCITED when he gets out, and is excited by the kids, that he just is beyond controllable. The combination of that and a lack of really hard exercise can be the behavior you're seeing. 

I can't imagine how hard it is to raise a puppy with little kids. My dog's excitement level soars when she sees or hears young kids. Without really careful management, she'd knock them all over in a heartbeat out of joy and friendliness. But I do wonder if more exercise, paired with firm rules and consequences would help. But I do think exercise is the first thing. The rules won't work if you have a dog with pent up energy and an inability to concentrate. 

I hope this helps a bit. Just my initial thoughts..


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

I recognize that your situation, with young children in the family is several levels more difficult than ours, but we did see similar behaviors. My take is that while you are correctly identifying frustration as one cause, I think you're seeing the way that translates into the behavior a bit more as a deliberate choice than as a matter of impulse control, which I think is more consistent with his developmental stage. In other words, he gets all this adrenaline pumped into his body at the sight of a dog he wants to play with or something he wants to get, and when he can't see that through he doesn't know how to deal with it, loses his mind, jumps and bites. It is not that unusual a response, it's just much harder to manage when a little kid is around. 
I have good news and bad news. The good news is it does get much better. The bad news is, it can take a long time. At 7 months he's still just a puppy. We had this behavior improve then return once or twice before it completely disappeared at about 18 months. 
In case it is helpful, these are the things that I discovered while dealing with it: stern voice or handling only made it worse. At some points he would do a sit, down with treats and it would help calm him, but other times the only thing that worked was completely ignoring him. With time I settled on this as my go to response and it made a huge difference: I would get a foot on the leash to hold him in place and turn around to look away. This almost instantly stopped the behavior. Sometimes he would then do it again at which point I just walked him straight home without looking at him or talking to him. He'd grab the leash in his mouth but I would just keep walking. 
If you decide to see it through I think there will come a time when he'll be that dog that you have imagined. For now perhaps the children should not come along on the walks and perhaps for now they are never ever allowed around him unsupervised. I would make sure that no one is ever allowing him to play with teeth. In our case I think it made it a bit more challenging that my kids (both in their early 20s), did sometimes let him play bite, in spite of my disapproval. 
And also I second the vigorous exercise advice from Sweet Girl.
Finally, no guilt. You are clearly doing a lot to try to deal with this challenge and it is so hard to deal with young kids and a puppy of this breed at once. Good luck and big hugs to you and your little ones.
Edited to add: I don't see the above as training advice. I really believe these were just management techniques for me. The thing that ultimately cured the madness was age, in my experience.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Anele,

Just wanted to pop in and let you know I've been thinking about you and your family and hope you're having a better day today. These teenagers are more than a handful!

Last night I walked to a pub that allows dogs on their patio to meet a friend who also brought his 6 year old golden. I've brought my little bundle of joy with me there several times in the past and ge impressed me with how well behaved he was. So, I expected more of the same last night. Hahaha! 

When we got there he immediately jumped in the flower bed that was being watered by a sprinkler system. Got soaking wet, jumped out and shook himself off all over me, my friend and the elderly couple next to us. Then barked at a fog that walked by... Loudly.... Then grabbed a huge branch of a shrub in his mouth and broke it off.... All within about 10 seconds. I was mortified. Lloyd immediately got walked back home. Lol! He didn't seem to mind... He happily went in his crate with a huge smile on his face.

This age is so difficult. They change and go through phases. I never know which Lloyd I'll meet when I wake up in the morning. Speaking of which.,,, he used to wake me up when the sun came up (4:45 am here) and actually slept pea fully until 8 am this morning. I'm on vacation and wondered if he was still breathing when I woke up saw the time! As soon as we work through on issue, another one pops up. Thank goodness for this forum (and alcohol) or I would be lost. :smile::dog::beer::wine_glass:


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Two things: 

- The bite on the ear recommendation - to anyone reading - ... it usually is a very unwise move to put your face (or any part of your body - but so many nerves and sensitive skin!) near an already bitey dog.

- Sometimes with time and training things get better. But sometimes not. It's a fine line between giving the support and hope and encouragement to keep working to go forward. (Reactive Champion documents one dog owner's reactive dog eventually becoming a 'normal' dog). But sometimes things don't get better and there aren't happy endings. I recently read this book: [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Bark-Lunge-Saving-Training-Mistakes-ebook/dp/B00M7GDB5Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435859880&sr=8-1&keywords=bark+and+lunge+book[/ame] No happy ending in terms of 'they trained and struggled and then everything was okay.' Some of my training clients get happy endings - more than they ever thought was possible. Sometimes we don't. And most often, we're somewhere in the middle. To a point everyone can compromise with and they can safely live their lives and enjoy the dog in other ways than originally hoped (no dog parks, not a therapy dog, etc).


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

SwimDog said:


> Two things:
> 
> - The bite on the ear recommendation - to anyone reading - ... it usually is a very unwise move to put your face (or any part of your body - but so many nerves and sensitive skin!) near an already bitey dog.
> 
> - Sometimes with time and training things get better. But sometimes not. It's a fine line between giving the support and hope and encouragement to keep working to go forward. (Reactive Champion documents one dog owner's reactive dog eventually becoming a 'normal' dog). But sometimes things don't get better and there aren't happy endings. I recently read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Bark-Lunge-Sa...435859880&sr=8-1&keywords=bark+and+lunge+book No happy ending in terms of 'they trained and struggled and then everything was okay.' Some of my training clients get happy endings - more than they ever thought was possible. Sometimes we don't. And most often, we're somewhere in the middle. To a point everyone can compromise with and they can safely live their lives and enjoy the dog in other ways than originally hoped (no dog parks, not a therapy dog, etc).


Just to be clear.. I am not advocating biting your pup on the ear! And I have never done so. And I do agree with you swimdog. My aim was simply to share information to demonstrate that some dogs do indeed respond to physical correction. And of course there is a big difference between biting the ear of a 3 month roly poly boxer and a 35kg 9 month dog! The roughest I ever get with Buddy is grabbing him by the skin on the scruff of the neck. He hates it and stops what he is doing immediately the rare times I do it.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My take 

Your dog is not being aggressive and is showing bite inhibition. A bite breaks skin. Aggression brings intent to harm. There is no mistaking aggression when you see it, it involves a primal knowledge that you are at risk.

That said, his behavour is not acceptable. 

It may well be time to have him trained inhouse with a pro, that would give you breathing room.
Can you return him to his breeder? Either permanently or to give you a break?

If you need to rehome him, please reconsider using the words aggressive or bites...he sounds like a frustrated puppy who has excess energy (not the type helped by exercise but perhaps the type who is overstimulated) who would probably be a welcome addition in some homes which will not happen if he is labelled aggressive.

I have in my home 2 dogs returned to their breeder, both dogs are phenomenal but 1) I do not have children and 2) I am at least as inclined to start training as I am to exercise a dog who shows excess energy.

I am truly sorry you are going through and can assure you that you are in the (typically) worst phase of bringing up a puppy. I cannot offer assurances that he will be the dog you want him to be though.

Your family may just not be a good match for a puppy with all the mischief and energy. It happens and there is no failure involved. I perhaps have a different take on returning dogs since as mentioned 2 of my dogs were returns, my Towhee for being 'too much dog' for her original home with children. But she's a great dog, just needed a different home. 

Please take this as intended, kindly. It may sound harsh but that is not my intent. in the end, only you and your family can decide whether to give your dog up now or to work through the issues hoping everything turns out as you want.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I appreciate everyone's comments and support. If I can get back to everyone individually I will, though I am short on time at the moment!

RE: *Your dog is not being aggressive and is showing bite inhibition. A bite breaks skin. Aggression brings intent to harm. There is no mistaking aggression when you see it, it involves a primal knowledge that you are at risk.

*He is showing bite inhibition, but it depends which scale you use to determine it is a bite. It is more than a pre-bite, but rather a highly inhibited bite. On most scales, it is considered a level 2, but because he is leaving bruises at times, on some scales it is considered a level 5 (of course, the scales with more individualized/detailed levels sound worse!). 

As for aggression-- it is a loaded word and I know many are uncomfortable with it. He is biting or "nipping" if you feel more at ease with that word out of frustration at times-- not every time, but there have been clear instances that he wasn't getting his way, so he bit/nipped/bruised/mouthed. There are many different kinds of "aggression," and while play aggression isn't a true aggression (and this is what I think we are seeing often but not exclusively), from what I've read, I think there is also an element of conflict aggression. 

The other issue is that a dog who is hyperstimulated can BECOME aggressive. 

We cannot walk down our street past one block without becoming very concerned that he will become hyperstimulated. 

We cannot take him to the forest preserve for any length of time without becoming very concerned that he will become hyperstimulated. 

We cannot allow a child or visitor to enter the room without becoming very concerned that he will become hyperstimulated.

And by hyperstimulated, I don't mean "just" jumping, but I mean full-on mouthing with the possibility to bruise.

DOES he become hyperstimulated each and every time? No. Sometimes, even most of the time, we have beautiful walks. Sometimes he will sit when a child enters and enjoy being pet, or ignore everyone completely and relax with a chew. Last time we had guests he was pleased as punch to be pet and didn't jump, as long as he had his Kong.

We have done extensive management to prevent this, but there are no guarantees with each experience (each walk, each time someone comes in the room), so he is highly monitored. I am happy to say that none of my younger children (ages 3, 5, and 8) have ever received more than a scratch from him during his younger, puppy days.

Physical exercise, as you might guess, is a real challenge. An off-leash area (beyond our yard) would have to be in a dog park in our area (no such thing as the woods being allowable for a dog to run in unleashed here unless a specified dog park), and I am not willing to chance a poor encounter with an unfriendly dog. He is reluctant to play anything beyond tug. We are working on his retrieve, but it's slow going. He just doesn't seem to enjoy it that much. We continue working on it regularly, however. 

So, we do other things, focusing on mental stimulation. We have trying to provide more challenges for him with nose work, and he does seem to enjoy it. Now we hide just a bit of Milk Bone in the yard (not huge-- about 1/4 acre) and then he has to find it . . .we keep going until he gets tired. He has to find most of his meals this way. We do training for duration. I am at the point where he will sit automatically on the deck, I can walk across the yard, behind the garage and he can't see me to hide something (normally I hide things without him being outside at all, however), walk back to him up the stairs, and THEN release him. He won't have moved an inch until my cue. These are just some examples. 

The biting behavior is not all day or even every day. We don't know when it will happen, because it is variable. We can predict which situations will LIKELY trigger it but we cannot, in fact, predict that they WILL trigger it. For example, I can walk in the room and feel 100% confident he won't do it. But for my husband, this may or may not be the case. Very unlikely, but more likely. 

It was happening once a week, though again-- this was because of our very high level of management and supervision, not only around children, but on walks (limiting our time, limiting where we go, watching how we use food very carefully-- not using food results in biting even when there is none available). Lately it has been happening more, though I think it becomes part of his level of elevated arousal. In other words, if it happens one day, then we have to be on guard because his adrenaline is still pumping for several days. 

Some of you have expressed concern over my daughter and agility. The one who is taking him is my 13 y.o., not the 10 y.o. and of course, I will be right there. My 13 y.o. is my partner in training and the only one who knows Kevin as well as I do. She suffered through all of our bitter cold, snowy days for house-training, has read Ian Dunbar's books, attending all training with me, and worked as his handler in other situations. Anyway, it is a class designed SPECIFICALLY for young handlers (16 and under). We have been trying to enroll in an adolescent class as well (continuing obedience) and finally got notice today that it is running. 

At this point, I would not be willing to return him to the breeder for training as he would use a choke collar and alpha roll, as that is what he advised me. However, it is likely that in an environment like the breeder's, where he would have access to dogs to play with AND likely would never be leashed (he lives on acreage), he would not exhibit this behavior. (My breeder lives alone and does not have children.) 

We are seeing our vet tomorrow for the possibility of medication, as there have been concerns from both trainers that anxiety is at the root of this problem. 

While I am a mom of 5, I do have time to train and play with him. (Sometimes being a mom of 5 is easier because the kids have each other!) He is not crated except for naps. Our summer was going to be about exploring the world with him, but this issue has been very limiting as so much is "too much" for him. I have been trying to find creative ways to exercise him because, as usual for my dog, the usual ways don't work! AND, he will rarely, if ever, go to sleep on his own, so it's always a balance of-- is he too tired or does he have too much energy? Often the times he does the most biting are when he is tired, and _not_ not tired enough. 

I absolutely think he would do well in a different environment and that might be all it takes. He is a beautiful dog, sweet, loveable, intelligent dog. (Yesterday we played the ball/cupcake tray game for the 1st time and he ONLY took out the balls with the treats underneath-- smart guy.) We are very happy AND more than willing to continue working with him as long as it is possible to do it _safely_ and is for the best. It's not a matter of not being able to "put up" with something-- in my days of parenting, I have experienced many, many serious challenges-- but again, seeing if, even WITH the proper training/exercise plan, time, and maturity, is this a good fit?


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Can you share the pedigree on this dog, does it have any Field line in the parents or grandparents?


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Sending you a hug...

I'm going to throw this out there...have you tried a thundershirt? Seems like it works with some dogs and not with others, but it chills my neurotic BC mix out to the point of happy stupid. (Of course, it does squat for my old hound, whom it was purchased for, so...)

Bottom line: I trust your judgment. I'm just very sorry you're going through all of this.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I feel for you. I feel bad because everything you described sounds like young dog behavior. Nothing serious at all. I need to get a video of Chloe when she doesn't get her way. She lunges and barks and crinkles her nose. I also feel bad for Kevin. I think at this time in your life your family isn't ready for a puppy. It will be best to find him a good home. Maybe someone on here can help you do that. He is a beautiful puppy. I think you are so freaked out about your previous dog you are really labeling this as aggression when it is not. The sad thing is like sunrise said if you rehome him and label him aggressive your going to not find him a good home.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

goldlover68 said:


> Can you share the pedigree on this dog, does it have any Field line in the parents or grandparents?


 I can PM it to you, but I don't think so. His pedigree only has titles on the front end, too! 



Noreaster said:


> Sending you a hug...
> 
> I'm going to throw this out there...have you tried a thundershirt? Seems like it works with some dogs and not with others, but it chills my neurotic BC mix out to the point of happy stupid. (Of course, it does squat for my old hound, whom it was purchased for, so...)
> 
> Bottom line: I trust your judgment. I'm just very sorry you're going through all of this.


 I very much appreciate your hugs! I have thought about the Thundershirt-- it is a good possibility!



Cpc1972 said:


> I feel for you. I feel bad because everything you described sounds like young dog behavior. Nothing serious at all. I need to get a video of Chloe when she doesn't get her way. She lunges and barks and crinkles her nose. I also feel bad for Kevin. I think at this time in your life your family isn't ready for a puppy. It will be best to find him a good home. Maybe someone on here can help you do that. He is a beautiful puppy. I think you are so freaked out about your previous dog you are really labeling this as aggression when it is not. The sad thing is like sunrise said if you rehome him and label him aggressive your going to not find him a good home.


I did a search on this thread and I can't find where I labeled him as aggressive. I am very much a research person and so in my research, I am seeing some instances that _may _be considered (conflict or frustration) aggression and he did not exhibit those instances in front of the trainers. It is just something to keep an eye on. 

I am not confusing him with my last dog, either. I watch him closely for signs of anxiety around my kids, and I don't see them-- I know he is very comfortable (though sometimes too excited) whereas she clearly had fear aggression. 

I also wouldn't feel too sorry for Kevin.  He gets so much attention, treats, training, etc. My mom frequently gets irritated at me for focusing on him too much. I am being careful with him and my children and want the best for all of them-- that doesn't make me a bad owner, but rather a responsible one, I think.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

I got to say I kind of agree with Cpc1972. I feel like you are letting your emotions from the relationship with your previous dog cloud your relationship with Kevin. I disagree in that it means that you should give him away. I just recommend taking a deep breath and approaching the situation with a different attitude. 
Now that Rundle is getting into her teenager stage, I am noticing more of the behaviors that other people have been talking about. She gets really excited crossing the street, after being pet by people, or after lying in the submissive position meeting a new dog... she will turn around and start jumping and biting at the leash, sometimes accidentally getting my hand. I usually pause or wait until we get across the street, then bend down and give her a firm no, and tell her to let go, and sit. Wait until she appears calm and then continue with our walk. I am suspicious that because Kevin does not respond to you in these situations that he might not entirely respect you as his leader. I do not have enough experience to suggest how to change this, but, I do agree with others that it may call for more of a physical correction. By this I definitely do NOT mean striking or biting your dog. 
Playing tug Rundle sometimes grabs to high and gets our hand as well. I do not bruise easily so she has never left bruises, but, on a child she might. However, in all of this I have never once worried about "aggression," or "hyperstimulation." She's still developing and gets excited... it builds up and she then shares that excitement with me in sometimes inappropriate ways. I know she will eventually come accustomed to these things, and become calmer with age. It's just a faze, though it can be mildly embarrassing or uncomfortable when she gets her mouth on me, I really don't see it as worrisome at all. Most of the time, I am in awe of all the things she is doing right at her young age.

P.S. Just saw your reply to Cpc1972 that you are able to see a difference between your first dog and Kevin and realize they are not one in the same.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I have a reactive dog. People mistake his reactivity for aggression. Lunging to the end of his leash, jumping on people, mouthing on people, basically losing his mind when he gets near people or dogs. That was about a year ago. 

He gets, as you said, hyper stimulated and just loses his mind. 

He is much better now. To the point we might pass our CGC. What did the trick for us, is continuous training (at a local obedience club), using the best training methods for him ( which for us is a balanced mixture of positive reinforcement and physical corrections. These corrections vary from the tightening of the slip collar to the physical placement of his body in accordance to what I want.... But 98% of his training is positive reinforcement), hard exercise, and desensitization. 

I understand that you feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. But if you commit to a month of daily vigorous cardio exercise for him, coupled with different or modified training techniques, I honestly think you'll see a difference and feel like your over the hump. 

If he doesn't like fetch, can you set up a lure course? Using some croquet arcs and rope with a way to crank it. That way he can chase the lure with no risk to anyone getting bitten and without reinforcing the idea that its OK to chase the kids. 

Or if the dog park is the only option, go when there is no one there. Or find a dog or two that Kevin clicks with and set up play dates so they can run around and wear each other out.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

You should see Chloe when my uncle walks in. She jumps, bites his arms, his toes if he has on flip flops. Not once have we felt that it wasn't any more then a excited puppy greeting. In the end only you know what you can handle and will do the right thing for your family and Kevin.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Here is a video of Chloe that just happened a few minutes ago. This happens maybe a couple times a day. This video isn't very good or very long but it can give you a idea that other pups have excess energy they try to get out.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The thundershirt, or something similar, might be worth trying. I have a dog that just has trouble settling down. He paces the house constantly. In his crate he can spin circles for hours. It took over a year before I ever saw him choose to just "chill" and do nothing in the house for a few minutes.

However, if I put my other dog's drying coat on him (a spandex suit with velcro that fits snugly around the body), within a few minutes he will just curl up and hang out or go to sleep.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think you have gone above and beyond working with him, I am impressed with the amount of effort you have expended to make this work. I'm glad you are getting support and encouragement from this board, however, you've asked this question a couple of times, 

"...even WITH the proper training/exercise plan, time, and maturity, is this a good fit?..."

and in all honesty, and meant with complete kindness, I think the answer is No. He is not a good fit for you and your family. You truly are to be commended for all the work you have put in with him, but I think this dog needs a job. I think his drive and energy are more suited to working every day in some capacity, SAR, drug detection, contraband detection, etc. 

And I think you and your family deserve a really wonderful, loving, happy, silly, goofy, family dog.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Hypothetically, let's say there is no option of re-homing or returning Kevin. Imagine he is one of your 5 children, just with a behaviour that isn't acceptable but you alone are unable to change. 

What options are left for you to get through this?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm so impressed with you- and Kevin- what an amazing dog that will sit on the deck and await your hide game! 
He's a teenager. You could try some rescue remedy when you are about to begin something that has in the past caused bad behavior, but he's a teenager... his world is changing all the time and old things will be new to him on some level until he is two years old, so his excitement stimulus will change over time and you'll barely realize he hasn't 'done it' in a while on a neighborhood walk when the car ride will stimulate him or the mailbox walk or the ball toss. He might start loving retrieving and disliking scent work. Of course, you know all this... I just would encourage you to give it some time if you think you can, and if you can't, I'll take him (lol!).


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Yikes! I noticed a couple people saying rehome now... isn't there a statistic out there that most puppies get re-homed within the first year of life? There is definitely a reason for that right? Puppies are crazy! They test our patience, our will, our stamina. But, there is a great dog waiting for you down the line. I urge you not to miss out on him. And get more help with him if you need it! Otherwise someone is going to get the great dog that you wanted all along.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

3Pebs3 said:


> Yikes! I noticed a couple people saying rehome now... isn't there a statistic out there that most puppies get re-homed within the first year of life? There is definitely a reason for that right? Puppies are crazy! They test our patience, our will, our stamina. But, there is a great dog waiting for you down the line. I urge you not to miss out on him. And get more help with him if you need it! Otherwise someone is going to get the great dog that you wanted all along.


This is so true and well said.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Yikes! I noticed a couple people saying rehome now... isn't there a statistic out there that most puppies get re-homed within the first year of life? There is definitely a reason for that right? Puppies are crazy! They test our patience, our will, our stamina. But, there is a great dog waiting for you down the line. I urge you not to miss out on him. And get more help with him if you need it! Otherwise someone is going to get the great dog that you wanted all along.



Some stats


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

mylissyk said:


> "...even WITH the proper training/exercise plan, time, and maturity, is this a good fit?..."



I'd ask what constitutes "proper" training?


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

3Pebs3 said:


> Yikes! I noticed a couple people saying rehome now... isn't there a statistic out there that most puppies get re-homed within the first year of life? There is definitely a reason for that right? Puppies are crazy! They test our patience, our will, our stamina. But, there is a great dog waiting for you down the line. I urge you not to miss out on him. And get more help with him if you need it! Otherwise someone is going to get the great dog that you wanted all along.


I don't think anyone here is advocating she give the dog up. We'd never simply give up on a dog when things get a little tough.

I mean everything in her last post, she just described NORMAL puppy behaviour, that every single one of us has gone through and every single one of us has come out the other end better for it.



Anele said:


> Physical exercise, as you might guess, is a real challenge. An off-leash area (beyond our yard) would have to be in a dog park in our area (no such thing as the woods being allowable for a dog to run in unleashed here unless a specified dog park), and I am not willing to chance a poor encounter with an unfriendly dog. He is reluctant to play anything beyond tug. We are working on his retrieve, but it's slow going.


He needs to run and exercise and burn off all this energy he has. Ben does the same thing as what you're describing, when wifey walks him.... because she walks to slow for him.

But... if you're not willing to go to a park on the very off chance of something bad will happen... then make sure you never cross the street or drive your car. sheech 



Anele said:


> He just doesn't seem to enjoy it that much.


 because it's boring after a while. 



Anele said:


> I am not looking for training advice as this point. I just need help in determining if it is time to give up or if I keep going with him, will he become the dog we want for our family.


By her own admission all she's after is a yes, no answer.

She isn't looking for advise from us at all. Even though We've given her mountains of information and help

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-puppy-up-1-year/358074-bite-inhibition.html

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ver-arousal-biting-puppies-support-group.html


So to answer her in the way she's asking



Anele said:


> I am not looking for training advice as this point.


ok


Anele said:


> I just need help in determining if it is time to give up


Yes ~ give the dog up. As we've all said what she needs to do to fix the problem ad nauseam but sadly to no avail.



Anele said:


> or if I keep going with him, will he become the dog we want for our family.


YES 1 trillion times over YES, yes he will...



Anele said:


> daughter and agility.


Probably wouldn't start agility until 12 months




Anele said:


> We are seeing our vet tomorrow for the possibility of medication


Medicate a dog that just needs a dam good run???



Anele said:


> It's not a matter of not being able to "put up" with something-- in my days of parenting, I have experienced many, many serious challenges-- but again, seeing if, even WITH the proper training/exercise plan, time, and maturity, is this a good fit?


Well. this is just another thing to "put up" with.

It passes just like EVERYONE has said in some form or another.

BTW I'm unsubscribing to this thread because every email I get just makes me more angry.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I think medicating a seven month old puppy is irresponsible. Its like the parents who medicate their children because they dont want to deal normal child behavior. If your to a point where you want to medicate him its time to find a new home.

I agree with marcus this is starting to anger me and makeme sad for this poor puppy.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

This thread has taken an unexpected turn-- but I suppose, not really.

First-- good news. We had our first agility class tonight. (NO jumping whatsoever until he is 2 and we've gotten his hips tested, BTW.) He was absolutely amazing. All of the relaxation protocol has been paying off! He was able to settle very nicely for most of the class, even working in close proximity to other dogs. The trainer had my DD walk around Kevin with the lead dropped and he did perfectly, and also keep him in a default sit from about 6 ft away until she called him. (Trainer emphasizes that there are elements of obedience in agility.) The trainer was very impressed with him, and all of the dogs. It was so wonderful to see children (some as young as 7) with their dogs participating. Kevin was the youngest! Of course, he did the too-excited greeting with the trainer and wasn't the model of calm throughout, but overall, we were so pleased. Kevin was thrilled to be in class. Interestingly, the trainer said he had the same biting/arousal issue with his Boxer (who passed away at the age of 2) and he even had one of his dogs run at Westminster, so he isn't inexperienced. 

I was driving to the class, thinking (not about the road, as I suppose I should have!) how lucky I was to have GRF. I feel extremely lucky to have had so much very valuable input from everyone here, and I know I have not taken the time to thank each and every person individually. I apologize for that. But-- please know that I HAVE read every reply and thought about all of them-- they have all given me something to think about and consider. Ultimately, I am very touched that you have reached out to help. 

I understand some may see medicine as irresponsible. Please know that it is based on the recommendation of a professional-- as well as a well-regarded GR owner right here in this thread. (I won't quote but if you do a search, you'll find it.) Anxiety is not a pleasant experience for a dog (or person). We are not looking to sedate him, which is very, very different. Anxiety is on the same spectrum as depression, and operates on a chemical level. If a dog needed medicine for diabetes, we wouldn't deny him that! So, if my vet agrees, we would give it a trial run (it takes awhile to kick in) and see if it has an effect. If not-- it means either the medicine isn't the right one OR it isn't related to anxiety. Then we will at least know. IF it is related to anxiety, and we can resolve it-- so many doors will open very quickly for Kevin. We can get started with the exploring we've been wanting to do and he will feel good. 

As for the thread taking the turn that it now has-- I apologize that I have angered some of you. What has finally dawned on me is that I have been asking for opinions, and we all have different ones, and this can be frustrating. Several people have said no, he isn't the right dog and several have said, yes, he is a typical dog, you just have to endure/train differently. No one on this thread even agrees; there is no "everyone" says the same thing here. 

So-- what I do is generally always based on what my trainers tell me to do. For example, every single trainer I've had (private and group) has said NO to dog parks. I can see, however, that it is frustrating for you to give the advice and I just go by what my trainer says! 

Thus, I realize I need to STOP ASKING and just keep things private between my trainers and me, as it is (obviously) very angering to some of you that I don't follow your advice.

Again, I thank very much all of you for contributing, and I will officially be quiet now . . .some day I hope to come back but I promise, not to ask for advice in the nauseating way that I have.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

I believe the anger is coming from a perceived shaming of your puppy by you. 

And quite frankly, going down the medication route just because you're ideologically against a form of training that may very well end the bad behaviour is not a great idea. 

Sure, use medication if you have exhausted training methods. But before you dope up a dog give it the chance to be taught right from wrong


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

I'd just like to say that I think Anele came here to seek advice because she was feeling torn. Torn if she was doing the right thing by keeping Kevin given his biting history with her young children. Those of us who aren't parents likely can't begin to understand carrying that weight on our shoulders. Not only does she have her puppy to think about, she has 5 children. I'm sure she is terrified that something could happen in the future and how she would feel if she ignored the signs.

I don't think it's fair of any of us to judge as we aren't walking in Anele's shoes. I wish we could be supportive and seek first to understand.

I very much believe Anele is desperately trying to ensure she is doing the right thing for her family and Kevin. I'm sad to see that she doesn't feel welcome here any longer.


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

I think the point that some people are simply making is that this subject has been debated to the point that it is just going round in circles and is no longer serving any purpose. Anele is certainly on information overload.. I think she is doing the right think to back off from this thread. She needs to process the advice she is being given in her own time, spend time really exercising the dog and now come to her own conclusions. If you do read this Anele, whatever your decision.. to keep the dog or rehome the dog.. my personal opinion is you should decide quickly. If you are going to rehome him please do it now while he is Young and he will adapt quickly.. if you are going to keep him make that decision as a lifetime commitment without questioning it again. I wish you luck.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I wish you joy in your journey  Giving Kevin agility and the needed obedience may well give him all he needs to blossom into the dog you dream he can be -- competition obedience gave this to my King and somehow the journey we traveled is all the more special and memorial for the issues we faced in his puppyhood.



Anele said:


> This thread has taken an unexpected turn-- but I suppose, not really.
> 
> First-- good news. We had our first agility class tonight. (NO jumping whatsoever until he is 2 and we've gotten his hips tested, BTW.) He was absolutely amazing. All of the relaxation protocol has been paying off! He was able to settle very nicely for most of the class, even working in close proximity to other dogs. The trainer had my DD walk around Kevin with the lead dropped and he did perfectly, and also keep him in a default sit from about 6 ft away until she called him. (Trainer emphasizes that there are elements of obedience in agility.) The trainer was very impressed with him, and all of the dogs. It was so wonderful to see children (some as young as 7) with their dogs participating. Kevin was the youngest! Of course, he did the too-excited greeting with the trainer and wasn't the model of calm throughout, but overall, we were so pleased. Kevin was thrilled to be in class. Interestingly, the trainer said he had the same biting/arousal issue with his Boxer (who passed away at the age of 2) and he even had one of his dogs run at Westminster, so he isn't inexperienced.
> 
> ...


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

Best of luck to you!! I really hope it all works out. Once you feel more confident about handling him, I bet he will start acting much better. That's what I found with my "bold" boy.


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## deedeeb771 (Mar 23, 2015)

If it makes you feel any better I am dealing with the same thing. Gus is 7 months old now, and we STILL cannot allow him around my small dogs (2 maltese, combined total weight 15lbs). He has been to "boot camp", he gets ALL of my attention, and I'm bruised pretty much all the time. I know I have to make it to the magic YEAR mark, and if you can keep your children safe until then perhaps we will both have the dog we've dreamed of. I'm using a pinch collar, which I was adamantly opposed to, but it DOES help. Thumbs up to you for being a good dog mom, and best of luck!


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

Oh I just wanted to mentioned also, during our toughest times with Charlie, we resorted to a choke collar and a slip lead etc, and none of them worked for us. I know lots of people do have success with them, but if you're very against that kind of thing, I'm glad to see you sticking to your guns even with a lot of pressure from people.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

The reality is that not one of us is there to actually observe the behavior. 

Second, if this is anxiety-based, medicating a dog to the point where they are more capable of learning other behaviors and enjoying their lives is not the same as turning them into soulless zombies. My problem Aussie is a happy girl today because she's been medicated (in addition to extensive training work and management) since she was seven months old at the advice of a behaviorist. It made it possible to keep her and help her enjoy her life.

This board is a wonderful resource, but it's as susceptible to group dynamics as any, and there can be a tendency to form a judgment, again sight unseen, and then pile on.

It's easy to do. It doesn't apply in this case, but there are plenty of times when some posters seem to have done zero research into the very basics of dog ownership or Goldens and it makes me very cranky. But before I post something snotty, I try to remember to ask the three things: Is it true? (Often, we don't really know.) Is it kind or helpful? And last, is it necessary? 

Anele, I wish the best for you in this very difficult situation.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

{{{{ANELE}}}}

I will keep you, your family, and Kevin in my thoughts and prayers. You have to make your decisions on the knowledge you have, the experiences you have walked through and the safety of your entire family. 

What ever decisions you make I support you.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Anele, I too wish you all the best and hope things work out for you. There have been some unkind and uninformed comments made in this thread, and I'm sorry you've been subjected to that. The bottom line is that you're the one living through the situation and you're clearly doing everything you can. You're consulting people who are on hand to observe your dog's behaviour and can give informed advice. You're giving the dog a job. You're researching and gathering information. And you care a great deal - that aspect shines through your posts.

The decision to keep or rehome a dog is a very personal one, and you shouldn't be judged for it, especially after you've obviously invested a lot of time and effort first. And the decision to medicate, or to use certain training methods, is also very personal. Again, nobody should judge you for your decisions: they haven't walked in your shoes.

While social media can be useful, it can also be very hurtful and damaging, and I think you're absolutely right to step away from this thread.

Again, I wish you all the best, and hope very much that things work out for your family and your dog.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

It seems to me,she is trying very hard to find a way through this problem with her dog, she must protect her kids, she loves them,and her dog.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Anele said:


> .
> 
> So, we do other things, focusing on mental stimulation. We have trying to provide more challenges for him with nose work, and he does seem to enjoy it. Now we hide just a bit of Milk Bone in the yard (not huge-- about 1/4 acre) and then he has to find it . . .we keep going until he gets tired.* He has to find most of his meals this way.* We do training for duration. I am at the point where he will sit automatically on the deck, I can walk across the yard, behind the garage and he can't see me to hide something (normally I hide things without him being outside at all, however), walk back to him up the stairs, and THEN release him. He won't have moved an inch until my cue. These are just some examples.


This bit stuck out to me in your response. I'm just putting this out there as an idea - but if he is having to search out all of his meals, he may be feeling anxiety around that. This is only an uneducated guess, but I'm just putting myself in your dog's place. Not knowing where his food is, having to search when he is hungry, no security around it. I wonder if you should ditch this and just feed him in a quiet spot (no kids) at the same time every day from a dish. Routine in a dog's life is very reassuring to them. 

I do not believe Kevin is aggressive at all. I think he IS overstimulated, and why not? He lives in a big, bustling, probably high energy, high noise level (?) household. This is NOT at all meant as an insult. I think you are REALLY lucky to have 5 kids! But that is a LOT of stimulation!  Could you hire a dogwalking company so that he could go for an hour or two everyday to run and play in a group? It is such good exercise for them - it would give your family a break - and he would come back less keyed up. Seriously, the leash walks are not enough. I just have to think of how my dog would be - and she doesn't have 5 kids around. She would be BANANAS. : 

I also wonder if he is responding to your anxiety through the leash. If you are always worried, tense, etc. he can feel that. Can you hire a trainer to come and work with Kevin on leash and just have you watch? It would give you a chance, maybe, to see that he is okay, he's not going to jump or be unruly. Now, this comes from someone who still has a dog (2 years old) who suffers from Excessive Greeting Disorder. We have been working on this for 2 years. She has gotten WAY better, but we're still working. If we approach little kids on leash, I _still_ make her sit and step on the leash. With adults, she is MUCH better, but some people still excite her. I have to make her sit, I need to tell people it's not okay for her to jump on them. Things have gotten way better. We did a lot of work on walks learning how to walk by little kids and strollers and other dogs without pulling and lunging towards them: as one of those fun things approached, I would start treating her and keep her attention on me, and treat and praise as we walked by calmly. The treats were more interesting that the shiny object (but you have to also make sure your treats aren't TOO stimulating. IE, we could not use dried liver. It was SO amazing that Shala could not even concentrate. We have had good luck with Zuke's - they're little and soft). 

Anyway... I'm rambling too much. I didn't want to make this so long as it can be hard to absorb a really long post. I hope something here helps.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> Is it kind or helpful?



Sometimes kind and helpful are mutually exclusive. It might just be that some care more about dogs than they do owners. What a person may perceive as helpful for the dog may not seem kind to the owner's feelings. I don't think it's a flaw, especially as we are all only on here because of said dogs.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Sweet Girl said:


> ...I think he IS overstimulated, and why not? He lives in a big, bustling, probably high energy, high noise level (?) household. This is NOT at all meant as an insult. I think you are REALLY lucky to have 5 kids! But that is a LOT of stimulation! .....





I honestly don't think this point can be over-emphasized. Unless you've lived in a home with 5 active children, it's impossible to understand the energy level. Even "good kids" are busy and noisy. Something I've discovered is that most successful, competitive level Golden owners are not doing it with multiple kids in the house, much less 5 children. There's a reason that most people tend to be childless or have reached a later stage in life where small children aren't a daily issue. 

*"Seriously, the leash walks are not enough."* I can't agree with this enough. Forgive me, I haven't been through all the info given to know if I've missed more info about Kevin's daily routine, but if a young Golden isn't receiving daily aerobic exercise it absolutely can and will result in crazy frenetic energy release that will translate as unacceptable behavior with people. A walk is good for your grandmother, it's not enough for a young, healthy working retriever.

I am not a fan of dog parks, but I do believe in puppy "play dates" - 30 minutes of wrestling and blowing off steam with another well mannered young dog. 2 or 3 times a week will make a difference if it's done on a consistent basis. I have approached complete strangers in my neighborhood and struck up a friendship simply because they were walking an adolescent Lab or Golden. I believe it is a huge reason that so many experienced dog owners on this forum don't have similar problems: they have other dogs to take the edge off their puppy.

My money is that the amount of management and training invested here is going to have a huge payoff but it may be a few more years coming. This dog will probably always be a lot of work. It's just up to you whether you have the energy and the will to do it and have a happy balance. I wish you luck no matter how this goes.

I would also like to say that there is no shame in admitting that a dog of a personality/temperament is not a good fit for a family. Bottom line, these dogs were bred to be working dogs and while they are all individuals, they were not bred to be lapdogs who are easily accommodated with minimal physical work or mental work. Trust yourself to do what is best for your dog and for your family.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Glad things are going in a positive direction  Sorry some responses to threads get heated but that's the way of the internet. I'm still waiting for that single post troll I slammed down to get back to me  

Have fun at the classes and enjoy the boy. Good for you!



Anele said:


> This thread has taken an unexpected turn-- but I suppose, not really.
> 
> First-- good news. We had our first agility class tonight. (NO jumping whatsoever until he is 2 and we've gotten his hips tested, BTW.) He was absolutely amazing. All of the relaxation protocol has been paying off! He was able to settle very nicely for most of the class, even working in close proximity to other dogs. The trainer had my DD walk around Kevin with the lead dropped and he did perfectly, and also keep him in a default sit from about 6 ft away until she called him. (Trainer emphasizes that there are elements of obedience in agility.) The trainer was very impressed with him, and all of the dogs. It was so wonderful to see children (some as young as 7) with their dogs participating. Kevin was the youngest! Of course, he did the too-excited greeting with the trainer and wasn't the model of calm throughout, but overall, we were so pleased. Kevin was thrilled to be in class. Interestingly, the trainer said he had the same biting/arousal issue with his Boxer (who passed away at the age of 2) and he even had one of his dogs run at Westminster, so he isn't inexperienced.
> 
> ...


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## BuddyinFrance (May 20, 2015)

Chritty said:


> Sometimes kind and helpful are mutually exclusive. It might just be that some care more about dogs than they do owners. What a person may perceive as helpful for the dog may not seem kind to the owner's feelings. I don't think it's a flaw, especially as we are all only on here because of said dogs.


I agree with Critty. Also someone commented that sometimes the remarks made here are "uninformed". Some remarks probably are, but we are not all vets, or behaviourists or breeders, some of us are just regular Mums bumbling through life with their kids and dogs! But I still think there is a place for everyone in the forum.. and I think that everyone who takes the time to reply or comment, uninformed or not, genuinly thinks they are being helpful. It is always up to the OP to filter the advice they get and decide for themselves what, if anything, they want to do with it.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

GoldenCamper said:


> I'm still waiting for that single post troll I slammed down to get back to me
> QUOTE]
> 
> I think you frightened the life out of them!!


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

I have been thinking about this thread overnight and I can understand how some of the guys have got a bit fed up. They don't understand the whole "girly" thing. We discuss, we analyse, we ruminate, then we begin again from the beginning and re-analyse, discuss some more, go back to the beginning again and have another go at it often from exactly the same angle. We can do this for hours and/or weeks! Guys are more "well just do it already, what's to discuss!" Just my observations in life LOL


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Harleysmum said:


> I have been thinking about this thread overnight and I can understand how some of the guys have got a bit fed up. They don't understand the whole "girly" thing. We discuss, we analyse, we ruminate, then we begin again from the beginning and re-analyse, discuss some more, go back to the beginning again and have another go at it often from exactly the same angle. We can do this for hours and/or weeks! Guys are more "well just do it already, what's to discuss!" Just my observations in life LOL


I think there is some truth to your statement, I know I do this, I also like to discuss ideas, things that happen, I have had love ones tell me, they do not like this, but I think you can not solve problems people have with each other, without talking about the problems.


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## momo_ (Dec 15, 2014)

I haven't read through the entire thread, but Anele, I'd like to say this. 

Last time we talked, I remember being in awe of you, you're a total superwoman juggling young kids and a boisterous puppy at the same time! You are the most dedicated dog owner I know. He was progressing so well, and I'm incredibly sorry to hear you're going through this. I'm almost in tears reading your post. It must be tough having to consider rehoming him, but your family comes first. You should never blame yourself or feel guilty if you've reached a point where you're stressed, crying and afraid of your own dog. 

It looks like there's a lot of helpful advice here. I hope you can come to the right conclusion for you, your family, and Kevin. 

You're in my thoughts. I'm so sorry.


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## anth34 (Dec 8, 2013)

Hi,

Once again this is a very difficult one. My dog Archie was very , very similar. We have four young kids. We almost rehomed him, in fact, that was all I thought about at the time. In the end we kept him, it wasn't easy. He wore a muzzle for a couple of months - it stopped the biting. Looking back though, his behaviour (very similar) probably was because he was hyperactive. The things that helped us through were probably starting to hand feed him (don't bite the hand that feeds you), lots of high value treats to reward good behaviour (dried small fish worked best) and swapping his leash for a halt (gentle leader worked for us). Either decision you make is equally valid. But looking back on it (he is now 2.5) I am glad I kept him - a totally different dog now. Good luck!


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## Lise123 (Jan 1, 2014)

Anele, you are probably not reading this thread at this point, but I wanted to offer you support and understanding from here.

Every dog is different, but at Kevin's age, my dog was a total jackhat. His mission in life was to knock down my small children and mouth their faces while they screamed (we discovered this one day when he crossed the backyard faster than I did). He would go on walks with me, find some ridiculous tennis ball or food bone, and plop down and guard it, growling and snapping at me when I tried to move him. He guarded random finds at home, causing major conflict and fear in our household. He was never tired, EVER.

Two things kept me from rehoming him, even though my husband was all for it (and though I didn't choose to rehome him, it was very touch and go, and many tears were shed). The first was the enormous amount of work and training I had already put into him. It wasn't paying off in that moment, but I had so much invested in him, and I knew that someone would reap the benefit of that when he got older. Selfishly, I wanted it to be me.

The second thing was a comment I read somewhere on these boards. I don't remember who said it, or if it's even true, but someone said that your dog's personality around 4-5 months will reemerge after the horror of teenageryness. My dog was a miserable teenager, but at four months, he was a total sweetheart. So I hoped he would come back to me, and slowly, around nine months, we started to see it again. And now he's back 100%. 

We were fortunate to be able to work through the guarding and to find the resources, including trainers, to correct this behavior. (I'll never forget the day I could see the lightbulb click over his head on this issue, though, and it was with a senior dog schooling him on a playdate. The value of older dogs teaching younger dogs can't be overstated.) 

Having lived through a difficult and potentially dangerous phase with a young dog (the guarding could happen at any time, with anyone, over anything), I would never second-guess anyone who chose to rehome a difficult young dog. The stress is just enormous and crushing when you consider the safety of your children.

You have been a very caring and considerate dog owner, and whatever choice you make for Kevin will be a good one. Please be good to yourself and know that whatever you choose, Kevin will have a good life.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

*Thank You and Update*

I am back to say "thank you" and give an update. I am sorry that I have not been able to personally thank all of the wonderful people here who reached out to me on the boards and via PMs. Your words, advice, support, and encouragement have been very much appreciated.

Just as a background-- one of my children has special needs. Early on, when we got Kevin, I mentioned here that she was hospitalized as a result. That really put us all through a lot of stress, but we continued on and tried to work with Kevin the best we could.

The last few months (right at the time I wrote my initial post on this thread), her needs became more intense and serious. She is currently at one of the best hospitals in the nation (thankfully, close to home) and I feel she is receiving the best care possible and will have a very good outcome. 

Two weeks ago, my mom also went into the hospital. So, between my daughter and mother, Kevin has had even less training than usual, though he gets a lot of attention, thankfully. 

So, while Kevin's training has gone way, way down and he has even regressed in some areas (never, ever broke a sit, and now he does), overall he is becoming much improved. His biting, we have found, is almost always rooted to frustration in training. He either wants us to be clearer, move faster with our cues, or give him something else to do. He sees his walks as training sessions, which is why this behavior comes out more prominently. He is also triggered by children running, but thankfully does not bite them and instead will redirect to an adult or my oldest child who is very close with him.

He is getting better about redirecting his mouthing in general and will put a toy in his mouth on his own or when we tell him to. So, his greetings with new people has been great.

We finished our agility class, but because of the health issues in my family, could not do more at this time. Kevin enjoyed it very much, though we had to highly manage his arousal point-- if my daughter was unclear or slow-- he would be frustrated and impatient. If we had been able to do more training at home, for both Kevin and my daughter as a handler (her practicing being clear) I believe this could have been improved.

Because I have been between 2 hospitals, we just hired a dog walker who only uses positive methods. (We did an interview/meet and greet beforehand.) She started with him this week and everything has gone very well, but I have suggested she only spend time playing/giving attention vs. walking. 

So, what has worked for us so far has not been more physical exercise, but rather time (maturity), redirection, avoiding trigger situations, and then watching closely to monitor times where we see him about to hit the arousal point. He really is doing so well with my children-- he follows my 3 y.o. around and my 5 y.o. has finally started trusting him and enjoying his company. My 13 y.o. is becoming more focused in training him and gives me reports. She is concerned that his feet aren't ball-like, but that is a topic for another day.

Kevin is solidly a member of our family and we just love him, despite all of his crazed antics and challenges. 

Thanks again.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

What an awesome Kevin update! I'm sorry to hear about the hospital stays, and will keep your family in my prayers. We have missed you!


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

What a nice update. So sorry for all the health issues. I hope that gets better.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Nice to see you again, thanks for posting the update. 
Sounds like you are making a lot of progress with Kevin, great to hear he is enjoying Agility. 

I'm sorry to hear about your mother and your daughter, my thoughts and prayers to them both and your entire family.


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

> He either wants us to be clearer, move faster with our cues, or give him something else to do.


Casper is just like this! I have video from dog class where it's so clear that he's expecting the next cue, and it didn't happen. My trainer is working with me on teaching him to slow down. It's going to be some work, since he is so distractible! Or, phrased more positively, he has a lot of prey drive.


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## Harleysmum (Aug 19, 2014)

Welcome back!


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

You have been through so much. I'm thrilled to hear from you and that Kevin's issues seem to be settling down. 

Sending you all a hug.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

I missed the beginning of this thread but what a tribute to you for sticking with it despite everything you've been through. So glad things seem to be looking up with Kevin and I'll keep your family in my prayers!


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Nice to have you back. Best wishes for your family's health


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

So great to hear from you and to learn that things are moving in the right direction. Best wishes for a quick recovery for your child and your mom.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

You have so much on your plate. Thank you for taking the time to share your update. You have really put so much into helping Kevin. I hope that your daughter and your mom are doing better.


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## Rundlemtn (Jan 16, 2015)

Just want to reiterate what others have said... glad you have come out on the better end of all of these challenges you've faced. Best wishes!


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## DJdogman (Apr 23, 2013)

That's really great to hear that things are improving, I bet they will get better and better. You have an awful lot on your plate, but I bet you'll look back in a few years and wonder how you ever managed it without a golden


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Anele*



Anele said:


> I am back to say "thank you" and give an update. I am sorry that I have not been able to personally thank all of the wonderful people here who reached out to me on the boards and via PMs. Your words, advice, support, and encouragement have been very much appreciated.
> 
> Just as a background-- one of my children has special needs. Early on, when we got Kevin, I mentioned here that she was hospitalized as a result. That really put us all through a lot of stress, but we continued on and tried to work with Kevin the best we could.
> 
> ...


So glad you are back and so happy to hear the great Kevin update. I think dogs value quality time spent with just them the most, so even if you only have a few minutes, that will be helpful. Just brushing him, or a hug and kiss, and talking just to him, will be do wonders. So sorry to hear about your daughter and mother and will keep everyone in my prayers.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry for what you've been going through with your daughter and mother. You sound like a woman of tremendous strength. Kevin is lucky to have you on his side, especially when you are dealing with so much with the humans in your life, too. I'm glad you have figured out a piece of Kevin's puzzle - and I hope it will only get easier as the months go by. Best to you.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Thank you again for the encouragement, prayers, and good wishes!

My mom and daughter are now both out of the hospital. Both my mother and daughter are doing very well.

Kevin and I have been doing some training again, so I hope to be posting some videos in the near future for critique.


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## KKaren (Oct 29, 2014)

That is really great news about your mother and daughter. So nice to see your posts.


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## bixx (Sep 8, 2015)

i've seen my trainer handle an impossibly aggressive dog. after assessing that dog, she had warned the owners that it would be difficult and long road, but not impossible. today, that dog no longer attacks every dog it sees and can safely train in a group setting. the dog did have to stay with her for a time. the dog became aggressive when it was bitten by a dark haired dog when he was a puppy. as an adult, the dog suddenly became aggressive towards all dogs. the dog was re homed twice as the aggression issue remain unsolved and became dangerous for the families who had him, and his third family sought the help of the trainer. dogs with aggression issues are either bred from parents with aggression issues (thus, a trait handed down) or there is an external root cause.

i would consider, as last resort, to have the dog completely checked by the vet, and if 100% healthy, to stay in for a week or two with a trainer well experienced in dog aggression, who uses positive reinforcement methods. i also agree that it's best to look for someone with dogs..in this case a trainer who has dogs helping with the training. after a stay with the trainer, you will surely get a thorough assessment of the positives and negatives and then you can really decide whether you want to rehome the dog or work further with the dog as the trainer suggests (though i think that a week with the trainer will transform him for the better). the trainer will also need to further look at how you all interact with the dog, as sometimes the dogs mirror our emotions. hoping for the best for all of you!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Bixx, that is great to hear about the dog who made such amazing progress! In my case, my dog does not have aggression. If he did, given that I have small children in the home, I would not keep him under any circumstance unless it proved to be a medical and treatable reason, like thyroid.


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## Driggsy (Jun 12, 2014)

Anele, I'm so glad things are going better with your pup, and I admire your persistence and patience in sticking with him. I would not judge you, or anyone, who decided to rehome a dog in the situation you describe.

This thread is timely for me, as I am dealing with my own wild-and-woolly adolescent dog. So you are not alone in this! Keep up the good work.


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