# Ichthyosis......5 yrs and counting



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

In fairness, I think that many of us, myself included as a vet and a golden owner/breeder did not have a clue about the disease..


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

Maybe so, but she wasn't very forecoming on other issues either. Any suggestions on things to calm the skin?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Kwhit on the forum has a dog with icthyosis... You can contact her..


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

Ok....thanks for the info. I am not to familar with this forum yet. Forgot I signed up as a member 2 yrs ago.:doh:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm looking for more info, as I have a friend whose dog may have a mild form of the disease.

What I've gleaned for tips so far is to give fish oil and to bathe weekly with a medicated shampoo.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

PM sent...


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

NikNik said:


> I only wish our breeder was honest with us, as it cost a small fortune trying to figure out what he had for the first 3 yrs of his life.


You should know that the genetic test for this disease has only been available for one year. Yes, ONE year. Just how was the breeder supposed to know that their dog(s) carried Icthyosis? Carriers show no symptoms whatsoever. 

This problem involves over half of the golden retriever gene pool.


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

*Hello from the UK, our retriever has it too!*

Hi there, I joined this forum (about a 2 weeks ago) because our boy (aged 3) has this problem and I wanted to know if there were any developements that may help with the control of the symptoms. And it's been very useful on a number of levels. My original post had a lot of vey welcoming replies which made me realise we weren't alone and also there are a lot of people out there who, like me, adore their dogs.

First of all, there are good breeders and bad and some of the good ones just haven't a clue that they are bad. They must feel completely devastated when they realise they are proliferating a problem that seems to have snowballed in the last 10 years or less. However my advice is move on, look into treatments, be grateful the dog isn't bothered by the condition and spread the word. Don't be shy, the more people know the more people will insist on DNA testing and then the bad breeders will be found out and the good ones will rest easy. Until some other damnfool thing comes along.

So, my next move is to change his diet and cut out all cereal and try him on Acana Pacifica, which is available in the UK. I thought I'd found the answer, by a company called 'Symply' in my local feed shop, 'Salmon and Potato', but when I read the label the third ingredient on the list was oats. Not ideal. The Acana stuff is 60% fish and the rest is vegetables. The nutritionalist I spoke to on the phone at the UK importers was very helpful and suggested break him in gradually as Retrievers have notoriously sensitive guts. Don't I know it. Hopefully it won't have a too explosive effect on him. I won't know if it's the answer for at least six weeks, but I will post my observations in the meantime. At present, I bath him from time to time with TeaTree oil shampoo, it's mild and smells nice. He gets smelly feet, so I keep them clipped out and dip them from time to time in a very mild solution of Savlon (NOT Dettol) antiseptic. And groom him at least once a week. 

He is a wonderful gentle animal, the best ever and there have been a few, and worth all the time and money spent, so we battle on and, as somebody said on this forum, it could be so much worse. All the best, Charlotte and Dino


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not sure why avoiding grains would help. Can you explain that a bit?


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

In regards to the breeder, there were other issues as well. Was in denial when I mentioned this skin condition. Some of the relatives may have been put down due to the disease. Yes, I totally agree that it could always be worse....alot worse, but not all breeders want to keep in contact with their pups and future health issues.


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

The test has been available for a couple years....know someone who utilized it a few years ago. Some breeders are not interested in knowing of any future health conditions of the dogs that they created. This was my experience. Too many other issues to get into.


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

My boy has been on a pres diet for several years due to chronic diarrhea. His diet is vension and potato, no grains and it has not helped. Oil seemed to help but he can't get much of them as it will set off his GI issues. I have also tried several shampoos = over the counter and from thie vets. Humilac spray was recently recommended by a breeder in Austrailia where ichthyosis is very common and they don't believe in putting down the those affected or carriers.


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## Rts (Dec 28, 2012)

Believe it or not, *I* have ichthyosis. I have a somewhat milder case, and have it under control, but I have to use a 10% lactic acid lotion to control it. Not sure how you could put lotion on a dog, though.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Would using a keratolytic shampoo like sebolux help?


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Hello, My dog of 13 months has DNA confirmed Ichthyosis as I mentioned in another discussion on this forum. 
I found a complete change in his skin condition when I fed Acana Pacifica (grain free) from the age of 4 months but unfortunately he had trouble digesting it. At 9 months in desparation I put him on Royal C. special GR puppy. His stomach problems cleared up immediately but after about 3 months all the scaly skin and shedding had come back.
Now I have him half on Acana Pacifica (my other dogs eat it with no problem) and half Pro P. Salmon & Rice puppy. Touch wood no stomach problems yet (early days) and his skin seems already much better. I hope this continues and that I have found a "cure". Hopefully I can have him on only Acana Pacifica in a few months time. He also has Omega 6&3 supplement, probiotics and Essential 6 spot on every two weeks.

I live in France in an old mill on a river and he is in it all the time, even when it is freezing!! Bathing is a problem as he is a big boy (40kg) and I am now 64 years old and have an old free standing iron bath. Impossible to get him in and out. I sponge bath him outside with a bucket of hot water to get off the mud after a walk - he loves to wallow in muddy puddles. Thank god I love him and all dogs as this is a lot of work.

I do not know why grain free fish based food seems to work. It is just trial and error on my part.

It is so good, at last, to find people asking the same questions I did at the beginning and getting no answers from the vet and definitely nothing from the breeder (complete silence).

Good luck every one and give us information on how you are dealing with this problem.
Roo


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks Rooroch for the information. My Golden boy is also on RC but its prescription potato and venison. They do have a fish presc diet....maybe we can try that. I have to be careful with the oils as even a little will upset his delicate GI tract. Thinking about taking him to see a dermatologist this spring, but right now he needs a root canal for a broken tooth ....he is going next week.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Glad this information helps a bit NikNik. Poor boy having root canal work. I am going to the dentist tomorrow, ughh!!
Grit also has a very delicate stomach and extra oil is usually badly received. I have one make of Omega 6&3 made by agepi that he tolerates, but maybe it is not available in the US. Extra salmon oil etc. no way.
I have found that all the R.C.; Hills etc. seem to make the condition worse. The only really good result I had was with the Acana Pacifica (or Orijen but that is richer).
I am trying to get him back on Acana P. now that he is older and I hope his stomach is stronger.

You have much more choice of foods in the US.

I add powder called Gastrix to each meal. It is from Hilton Herbs (UK) and has plants that aid digestion. It seems to help.

Good luck
Roo


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## Payton's Mommy (Feb 6, 2013)

I have been searching through the forums for advice on treating Ichthyosis, seems like you have been too NikNik! It calms me down a lot when I see advice and tips from people who have been dealing with it for awhile, my little guy is just 12 weeks old. 
The common answer seems to be Acana Pacifica...this is what my breeder suggested also once he turns one.
Any other tips or advice would be so welcomed


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi. My boy, Jake, is 3 years old also and has ichthyosis. I received the diagnosis following a surgical procedure of removing several plugs of skin and hair and sending to a lab. My vet did not have a clue about the problem. My groomer suggested the test as she said he did not have allergies (no scratching, biting, etc). I give Jake a bath every 5 days with CHLOR 4 shampoo, I give him two Vit A capsules (8000 units each) and other supplements for skin and coat. He eats Blue Wilderness High Protein Grain Free dog food. His coat is thinning and he sheds all the time. I am looking for other solutions. I think the constant bathing and blow dry is causing his coat to get thinner and thinner but do not know what else to do. He gets bacterial skin infections if I do not bathe him frequently. I saw something on the web about using Humilac spray and weekly emollients. I have ordered the Humilac spray made by Virbac. Have you tried any Humilac or emollients on your dog? Terri


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## Payton's Mommy (Feb 6, 2013)

Hi! I am in the early stages of "experimenting". My breeder told me not to change him to Acana Pacifica until he is one because he needs the RC puppy food for proper growth and development. She sent me a message a day later saying that she also had a "flaky" dog, who is about 6 months and she was adding a bit of Acana Pacifica to her food to see if it made a difference, but results won't show for a few months. I decided to add a little Acana as well, and I give him an Omega 3 supplement once a day. The grooming section at my pet store suggested using a curry brush to stimulate the oil and loosen the flakes-I had to go to an equestrian store for it! I have bathed him twice since we got him, once with a shampoo my breeder gave me the night we brought him home (before we knew he had this condition) and the other night with a "soothing" oatmeal shampoo. He seemed especially flaky after being shampooed so I am not sure if I aggravated the condition or if the flakes shedding was a good thing??
I think I will look into those sprays you suggested. I am willing to try anything!!!! Thanks for the suggestions


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Charlotteanddino said:


> Hi there, I joined this forum (about a 2 weeks ago) because our boy (aged 3) has this problem and I wanted to know if there were any developements that may help with the control of the symptoms. And it's been very useful on a number of levels. My original post had a lot of vey welcoming replies which made me realise we weren't alone and also there are a lot of people out there who, like me, adore their dogs.
> 
> First of all, there are good breeders and bad and some of the good ones just haven't a clue that they are bad. They must feel completely devastated when they realise they are proliferating a problem that seems to have snowballed in the last 10 years or less. However my advice is move on, look into treatments, be grateful the dog isn't bothered by the condition and spread the word. Don't be shy, the more people know the more people will insist on DNA testing and then the bad breeders will be found out and the good ones will rest easy. Until some other damnfool thing comes along.
> 
> ...


Hi Charlotte,

My golden is 3 1/2 years old and has ichthyosis. We found out the hard way
with a lab test which required several plugs of skin to be sent in for analysis.
Before the test the vets kept telling me it was allergies, but he did not scratch or bite himself so I was reluctant to believe it was allergies. Our vets have never seen ichthyosis before so they just tell me to bathe him twice a week with Chlor 4 shampoo and give him a high dose of Vitamin A, plus the fish oil supplements. The fish oil gave him diarrhea, etc.
I think I am over bathing Jake, or the shampoo is too strong because his hair keeps falling out.
Do you have a problem with excessive shedding?

Thank you,
Terri and Jake


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

Hi Roo, I've gone ahead with your suggestion of Acana Pacifica and bought a mini bag of it to see what effect it had on his insides and so far so good. I ordered a big bag today and I'll keep you posted. I've cut out the pouches of food (mixed in with the dry stuff) I used to give him but continued with the egg and Oil of Eve Prim capsules as I reckoned one change at time. I am sceptical but prepared to give it a go. As I say I'll let you know. My sympathies with you trying to bath a big dog like yours, thank God mine can get into the bath by himself with the minimum amount of help. All the best, Charlotte and Dino


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

Hi Terri, I'm afraid this is a rare condition and your regular vets know very little about it. I say 'rare' but I think it's more accurate to say that up until now it's gone largely unacknowledged, so there are few experts. 

My local vets said bathe Dino in some stuff called Malaseb at least once a week. It's full of chemicals and made no difference to his condition. Also it is very expensive and only available on prescription. Go figure. 

So to move on to a more positive place. First consider that this whole situation does not bother the dogs quality of life as such. Our dogs are basically unaware of it. We are trying to control it for two main reasons. Firstly it's unsightly and messy round the house and secondly it can be rather smelly. Such a shame when they are so beautiflul, however all is not lost. Here is how I control Dino's aroma (!?) and I reckon it eminates from anywhere there is a build-up of skin flakes that cannot be reached by regular grooming.

1 I clip out his feet, between the toes and around his pads. Get a dog groomer to do it if you are unsure, paws are webbed and have skin folds that can be tricky to avoid. Then bathe them in a mild solution of (in England we have) Savlon or (do you have) Hibiscrub. Something gentle and work it in to all those little corners you didn't know paws had. Do this whenever his feet get smelly. For Dino its every 2-3 weeks.

2 If I feel I need to shampoo him I only use a very mild shampoo. Tea Tree Oil Shampoo from the States is my current favourite. It smells nice and is gentle on the skin. Once I have rinsed him of shampoo I squirt an amount of baby lotion into a jug and mix it with water and the resulting emulsion I work into his shoulders and neck. This is an idea of my own and may have no benefit whatsoever except it pleases me to think I'm moisurising his skin even if it is in a very minor way. It also has the benefit of making him smell really rather lovely for a short time. I bath him every 2 weeks or so. I resist doing it more often because I'm 54 and it kills my back every time and also I don't want remove all his natural oils so I like to think I'm striking some kind of balance.

3 I groom him weekly, because if I don't he looks a mess. A fine toothed metal comb applied gently (I have reduced his mane which was excessive) removes the worst of the flakes and a throrough vacuum of the carpet afterwards seems to keep the worst of it at bay. He will, believe it or not, let me vacuum him on a low setting but you have to loosen the skin first. What a softy!

4 I've just changed his diet to wheat free (Acana Pacifica) - see a previous post. 

Recently he became rather smelly again and it wasn't coming from his feet or any other obvious places and after a talk with the vet whilst he was having his booster jabs and checkover we established that he had a mild infection in his (how best to put this?) 'gentlemans equipment'. It seems that wherever skin can gather bugs can gather too. Suffice it to say a slightly embarrased young (male) vet gave me clear instructions on what to do and he (the dog, I mean) is much better. So it seems basiclly it's the minor infections that take a hold where there is a build up of flakes in folds of skin that cause the real problems. 

I have no idea if any of this is a help. It's the blind leading the blind I'm afraid, but the more we pool our experiences the more we will learn. 

All the best to you and your boy,
Charlotte and Dino


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## Payton's Mommy (Feb 6, 2013)

Lots of great suggestions...So far Payton does not seem smelly, but I think I will start clipping the fur between his pads, just to get him use to it.
A groomer suggested Sebolux Shampoo...has anybody tried it? Any results?


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Lovely to get all this information from everyone. The only place that Grit gets smelly at the moment is at the bottom of his chest between the front legs. Because he is in the river at least twice a day he is damp a lot of the time during the day and this area takes the longest to dry. I am going to get some liquid savlon when I next go to the UK. Good idea. At the moment I put some cream savlon and work it in down to the skin. It seems a bit better.
Since I have used the Essential 6 spot on oil (5 weeks now of a 8 week cure) his skin does not seem so dry and he does smell lovely!!
I have never given him a bath with shampoo (reasons given before). I also believe that too much strong shampoo does more damage than good. The vet loves to sell shampoo!!
I groom him every day with a soft slicker brush with small plastic bobbles on the ends of the spokes. I think it is meant for a cat but it works with him, a little bit at a time. I also have a rake which opens up the coat first. He loves this and I do it on the sofa while watching rubbish on the TV.
Since I have gone back to the Acana Pacifica (3/4) Pro Plan Salmon & Rice (1/4) at the moment, he has almost stopped shedding and his flakes have almost all gone!! I hope to soon have him 100 percent Acana P. if his stomach can tolerate it. So far so good.
Last night he sat (lay) on my lap and it was so lovely not to be covered in hair and snow.
Keep on giving your information and solutions and we will hopefully all have easier lives with our beloved dogs.
Roo


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Charlotteanddino.
I loved your description of the visit to the vet!! Fantastic. I once did a long train journey through France with a whole lot of dog breeders (going to a veterinary conference). As usual we all talked "dog" throughout the journey. At the end a man sitting in the corner of the compartement who had not said a word, turned round and said that that was the most facinating journey he had every done and he would definitely look at his dog differently when he went home, and got out of the train. Not a dog breeder!!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

going out on a limb here...
Has anyone noticed a correlation between ichthyosis and IBD? Seems a lot of people whose dogs have Ichthyosis also comment that they can't change the food because of stomach issues.


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

*Ichthyosis and digestion problems-connected?*

Hi,
I have definitely noticed that many people with dogs that have ichthyosis are also fighting problems with soft stool/diarrhea when they try to give the fish oil supplements or change foods as recommended by Vets, etc. My Jake is 3 1/2 years old and until about 4 months ago I dealt with the skin issues and the constant reoccurring soft stool/diarrhea problems. Yogurt, pumpkin, probiotics, etc, etc. I tried them all with some success which always reverted to the same old problem. Plus Jake was a very picky eater! I had to beg him to eat and often hand fed even canned dog food. By accident he recovered with having Pepcid for about 30 days (he was on an antibiotic for bacterial skin and vet prescribed Pepcid because of his stomach issues). At the same time I started giving him Perfect Form made by The Honest Kitchen for his soft stool problems. Jake now eats his dry dog food with gusto and I can tell he actually enjoys his meals which is so comforting to me, I can't explain how happy it makes me to see him eat and actually enjoy it! Plus he no longer has the soft stool issues. Perfect Form fixed that problem or the combination of the Perfect Form and Pepcid. It feels so good to just have one problem (ichthyosis) instead of two!
Terri


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## Payton's Mommy (Feb 6, 2013)

Roo- I am so happy to hear that Grit seems to be less flaky! Gives me hope that one day I will also not be covered with flakes from my little guy 
I have started mixing Acana Pacifica in with the Royal Canin Puppy food that my breeder recommended. I haven't noticed a change in his stool, and he actually seems a little less gasssy then he was on straight RC..not sure if this is a coincidence.
I live in Canada, so I a not sure if I can get the essentials 6 spot on oil and I am not sure what Savlon is? I love hearing all the positives! When I noticed the flakes after only having my pup for a week, I took to the internet to research it..needless to say, lots of scary stories out there.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks so much everybody for the feedback in this thread. We're currently ruling out ichthyosis on my friend's dog, and if he turns out to be affected, these tips will be incredibly useful.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> going out on a limb here...
> Has anyone noticed a correlation between ichthyosis and IBD? Seems a lot of people whose dogs have Ichthyosis also comment that they can't change the food because of stomach issues.


Chance has terrible stomach issues if I feed him anything other than what he's on. I've tried grain-free diets and also raw. Horrible, horrible diarrhea. For treats, anything other than the biscuits from Blue Dog Bakery or Trader Joe's and he gets sick. Bully sticks make him vomit and have runny stools for three days. He can also have Jumbones and Dentastix, too. And that is it. I also have tried the fish oil at times and he doesn't do well on it at all. So yes, Chance has stomach issues.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Payton's Mommy, here is a link to Essential 6 spot on in Canada: Dermoscent Essential 6 Spot-On (Canada) Veterinary Information from Drugs.com
I like it as it is natural and does not interfere with any other products you use on your dog.
Savlon is a medicated cream or liquid sold over the counter in the UK. It has existed for many years and is not too strong. You can get Hibitane in Canada: Hibitane Skin Cleanser (Canada) Veterinary Information from Drugs.com which is similar.
I hope this helps.
Roo


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Grit has had stomach problems from a small puppy and I also wondered if the two were linked. I think he now understands the problem and if he finds a dead bird (I live in the country) he brings it to me and I give him some of his Acana (he does not have special treats) and he does a swop. I carry plastic bags in my pockets for these presents during a walk!!
Roo


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

OMG.....that is us! He is on prescription food due to his frequent bouts of diarrhea and we have to limit and extra oils for this same reason. I plan on taking him to see a dermotologist this spring to see what they have to say.


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## Payton's Mommy (Feb 6, 2013)

Roo, thank you so much for those links! I will definately look into them.
I guess I am lucky that, knock on wood, so far Payton has not had a problem with the RC puppy food, the Acana Pacifica, or any of the treats he has been given. Did the stomach problems with your dogs start from early on or did they develop later?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My Toby's developed when he was about 7 or 8 years old, at which time he was diagnosed with IBD by biopsy.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Grit's stomach was delicate right from the beginning when I fetched him from the breeder at 8 weeks old. He also ate anything he could find when he was young which did not help.
He is also very car sick, starts dribbling as soon as he sits in the car. I don't think this has anything to do with ichthyosis, its just him.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I emailed the GRCA health foundation, and asked about a link between ichthyosis and stomach issues. Here is the reply I got from Ann Hubbs, GRCA Health and Genetics committee (posted here with permission):

"That is a very interesting hypothesis indeed. The genetic cause of ichthyosis in Golden Retrievers was first described at the Canine and Feline Genomics Conference in 2010 and was published last year (PubMed link is at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22246504 ) . The same genetic mutation that causes ichthyosis in Golden Retrievers also causes a form of ichthyosis in people. Golden Retriever ichthyosis is extremely common in French Golden Retrievers (roughly a third are affected) and when I attended the 2010 conference, there was no mention of other systems being affected. I tried to find my copy of the paper this morning and, of course, could not – but I don’t believe that effects on the GI system have been described. On the other hand, the gene that is mutated in Golden Retriever ichthyosis plays a role in the lipid barrier of the skin – so it is not impossible that it could play a role in GI tract barriers. Now that the gene has been identified, such studies would be possible. Therefore, the short answer is that there is no data that we know about that indicates that anything other than skin is affected, but no studies have been conducted (“the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”).

However, in the email traffic that I receive from the H&G, the most common manifestation that breeders see is dandruff in puppies that becomes almost unnoticeable as they mature, with a smaller group much more severely affected. Of the 3926 currently in our online Health Survey http://www.offa.org/surveys/survey_golden.html , only 7 were reported as being diagnosed with ichthyosis. I strongly suspect that many cases of ichthyosis in Golden Retrievers are misdiagnosed as, or complicated by, other conditions – it is easy to see how changes in the lipid barrier of the skin could increase allergies and seborrhea and clinically would probably not be identified as two conditions (i.e. ichthyosis and atopic dermatitis). My impression is that when American Golden Retrievers are tested, there are a lot more cases and carriers than we thought but less than in France."

edit to add....just received the following additional email from Ann:

"..I probably should add that I am also very concerned that we do not over select against Goldens with ichthyosis. This is one of the first genetic tests we have available and we know that roughly two thirds of Golden Retrievers of European lines and a significant number of American Golden Retrievers will be either affected or carriers. We also know that in American Goldens, at this time, the most frequent manifestation may be dandruff. While it is reasonable to use the test to guide the breeding of ichthyosis carriers and affected Golden Retrievers, we will undoubtedly soon have genetic tests for diseases that are far more serious than ichthyosis (e.g SAS). I believe that it is important that our gene pool remains diverse and we do not narrow it in an attempt to eliminate the gene for ichthyosis just because we have a test for this gene. 

Ann
Ann F. Hubbs DVM, PhD.."


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Great googley moogley, that's one smart researcher.

And I had NEVER thought that some of these Goldens with itching problems might be suffering from ichthyosis rather than allergy-mediated atopy. That makes so much sense! And it also explains why the symptoms might fluctuate when they change kibbles, leading people to assume their dog is "allergic" to one ingredient or another when really it's just a change in the fat profile of the food.

My mind is so blown right now.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And from Rhonda Hovan, research facilitator for GRCA:


"...Hi Barb,

Congratulations on all of Tito's amazing accomplishments -- I'm proud that some of my crew are in his background! 

As Ann mentioned, we're not aware of any GI manifestations of the gene identified as causing ichthyosis. However, the wide variation in expression of the disease among dogs tested as affected indicates that there is still much we don't know about ichthyosis. Factors that cause these differences by modifying gene expression could be another gene, but more likely are epigenetic. Epigenetic factors include all environmental exposures, beginning prenatally. Further, it is also likely (based on early data in dogs but lots of data in humans) that many GI symptoms are also influenced by epigenetic factors, beginning prenatally.

This leads to two ways that ichthyosis and GI disorders can be associated other than by heritable genes. First, they may share environmental factors that increase the expression of each disease. An example of this from humans is that it is now known that the *microbiome* (the total inventory of all the microbial communities found throughout the body) is altered when a baby is born by C-section instead of vaginally. This is believed to be the cause of elevated rates of GI disorders, asthma, allergy, and many other conditions associated with birth by C-section. In humans, therefore, some children will express both GI disorders and asthma -- but the connection is an epigenetic exposure that increases the risk for expression of each condition, rather than a genetic link.

A second way that two diseases can be linked epigenetically is that expression of one disease can trigger changes in the body that increase expression of the other disease. Again using an example from humans, we know that obesity causes low-grade inflammation that often persists for decades. This inflammation is part of the pathway that leads, over time, to other diseases such as cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes. So most of us have heard that obesity is linked to cardiovascular disease, cancer, and diabetes, and in part that link can be traced to the underlying inflammation caused by obesity.

All in all, your observation is very interesting, and thank you for bringing this to our attention! There is certainly much we don't know yet about ichthyosis, so it's important to take things slowly, because rushing to remove the gene from the population has the potential to harm genetic diversity and lead to greater problems down the road. 

Finally, Purina did a wonderful article on this topic a few months ago, attached. This will also appear in the next GRNews, but you are welcome to share it by email too since many people on the various Lists may not be GRCA members. And you have my permission to forward and cross-post my email too.

Please keep this proud great-grandma posted on Tito's continued accomplishments!

Best,

Rhonda..."

and a link to the article to which she refers:

https://purinaproclub.com/Dog/Resou...g/Health/82277930-64c1-4920-9508-674af73746f5


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for their contributions. There are so many interesting thoughts here. I have changed Dino's diet to Acana Pacifica and there have been no adverse effects so far. It's ten days in and I'm waiting with bated breath to see some improvement. If I see a change I'll let you know. I am so fascinated with the idea that the guts and the skin problems could be connected, that the same intolerances cause both 'weaknesses' and then there is the idea that we should not shrink the gene pool too much because there are other worse things that could become concentrated. What, for example, is SAS?

Thinking of you all out there as I am flattened by our boy on the sofa,
Charlotte and Dino


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Barb, in regards to your question about ichthyosis and IBD, while we do not have definitive diagnoses for either condition, Toby's vet refers to him as IBD and I've noticed dandruff flakes on him for about the same time frame as his digestive issues.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

SAS is subaortic stenosis, also genetic in goldens. Much, much more serious than ichthyosis.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Charlotteanddino, glad to hear that Dino is tolerating the new food and I hope you get some good results.
I am in the UK for a few days and would love to chat on the phone. I do not have enough posts to send PM so if you would like to get in touch you could text my mobile - it's a french number 0033 677815937. I am staying near Northampton.
I have seen photos of Dino and see that he is very pale colour. Grit is also very pale and I noticed that some of the others with ichthyosis are pale too. I wonder if the colour strain of pale has more ichthyosis gene than the darker golden colour. Just a thought.
Hoping to hear from you. 
Roo


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hello All,
Jake is a very pale gold also. His skin is black. I was told that the black skin was bred in to make certain nose, eyes, pads, etc were black. Does anyone know if this is true? Jake's dandruff is black, not white. This makes it very visible in his almost white fur. Jake has European background. His parents were imported to US from Finland and the Netherlands. I have switched to Acana Pacifica food based on the posts. I also started the Essential 6 Spot On this week. Jake is tolerating the food very well. He had soft stool and digestion issues for 3 years but I seem to have found the remedy by accident, which was the Pepcid and Perfect Stool products I gave him for about 30 days while he was taking an antibiotic for bacterial skin problem. All his stool and eating problems are gone! He still has lots of flaking and he sheds enormously all the time. His coat is thin for a golden. I do not know if it is because of the constant bathing (every 5 days with medicated shampoo) or due to the bad skin?? I am hoping the diet change and the Essential 6 Spot On will help. I give him Vitamin A and Omega supplements recommended by the Vet. Do not know what else to do to improve his coat condition. He looks shiny and healthy but I keep worrying that he is going to shed all his coat, it gets so thin sometimes. Any advice?
Thanks,
Terri and Jake


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Terri, has he been tested for ichthyosis? It sure sounds like that's what he has.


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Yes he was tested when he was about 18 months old. Not because the vet had any idea but my groomer said she thought it was a genetic problem and not allergies because he did not scratch or bite himself just had very flaky skin which bathing did not help etc. So I asked my vet to test for genetic skin problems. They did surgery to remove about 6 plugs of skin and hair and sent to a lab for testing and it came back as ichthyosis. That was about Feb of 2011. I have been bathing him every 5 days since. He had intestinal (soft stool) and very picky eater problems also until about 5 months ago. He is not a picky eater I found out, his stomach just hurt. Pepcid and a wonderful product called Perfect Form from The Honest Kitchen fixed his reflux and soft stool issues. I called my breeder and told her that Jake's mom and dad at the very least were carriers of ichthyosis. She said she had just returned from a breeders meeting where they had been told about a new genetic test for ichthyosis and she planned to have her dogs tested. She does not have any useful information about treatment etc. This website is the best thing I have found so far for new ideas. I started Jake on the Acana Pacifica food (he was/is eating Blue Buffalo grain free) and I just started the Essential 6 Spot On plus bought the Humilac spray recommended. I also give him 16,000 i.u. of Vitamin A daily along with other supplements for the Omega 3/6 in tablet form (he could not tolerate the oil). Jake is a wonderful, fun, smart dog with great self confidence and gentleness. He takes a lot of care. I hope I am not over-doing his care because it does not seem to work except he does not have any more bacterial skin infection. 
Any help and advice is greatly appreciated.
Terri and Jake


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the reply, Terri. Another one with a correlation between gastro-intestinal problems and ichthyosis....


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

Hi Rooroch, so sorry I didn't see this sooner! If you are still in the UK my no. is 07816 250946, we are based in Gloucestershire and it would be great to talk.
Dino continues to improve I think with less flakes, though he still has knobbly skin on his shoulders and neck. His stools are better than they were and he seems to really enjoy his new diet. 
Yes he is pale and his skin is black. His nose is brown and his eyes are paler than any of my other retrievers. He also has grandparents and great grandparents from Sweden and Denmark. There seems to be a common thread here.
Anyway hope to hear from you soon, one way or another. Which part of France do you live in? I'll bet it's a lot warmer than here. Though Dino still gets fully submerged in the old canal even in minus temperatures, I put it down to his Viking ancestors. 
Talk soon, Charlotte


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

Hi Terri, Dino has black skin too! But I think that has more to do with his Ichthyosis than his breeding because he certainly does not have a black nose. His nose is putty coloured and his eyes are the same sort of brown as you get in glass eyes of teddy bears. Like pools of Maple syrup. Mr Toffee Eyes. And he stares at you when he is trying to tell you something. 'More food', 'Take me out' and 'Move over, I want to lie on your lap'. I think he's a Jedi Knight really.
His great grandparents were Scandinavian and he is pale. When he was young he had a very profuse coat especially his mane. His flakes are black not white, same as your boy, by the way. I know what you mean about doing too much and aggrevating the problem. Its a bit of a trial and error minefield. At the present I only bath him if he smells particularly doggy and then only in TeaTree shampoo. Then I massage baby lotion into his shoulders and neck and he comes out smelling unusual for a retriever but much more tolerable. I guess at the moment this is once every two weeks, though with his new diet I'm hoping to extend the period. I groom him with a fine tooth comb once a week. He has a six weekly visit to the dog groomers and she gives him a proper wash and brush up with strict instructions to use mild shampoos etc. And she thins out his mane and trousers. He doesn't have the profuse coat he had but there is still plenty of it and it is not getting any thinner. There is a post from 'Rooroch' about grooming and a particular soft brush with bobbles on the bristles and I'm looking out for one of those.
I love your picture of your boy jumping, I take Dino to Agility too and although we are frankly a bit rubbish, I don't know my left from right and he would rather go under the jumps than over, we have such fun and he loves it. 
Not sure if I've said anything useful, but all the best, Charlotte and Dino


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

I am back in France now but will still give you a ring and see how you are getting on with Dino. I am in Normandy so not much warmer than England. Grit goes in the river even if the temperature is minus 6!! He then runs around with his fur full of ice.
The slicker brush with the bobbles is really not meant for dogs, but cats!! It is small but if I use the 2 layered rake first and open up the hair I can then do little bits at a time and really get down to the skin without irritating it. I found the slicker in my local supermarket pet's corner.
My vet recommended the furminator (he sells it!!) but I checked out different opinions and I am not convinced.
Hoping to speak to you soon
Roo


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi Charlotte, Thanks so much for your reply. I am cutting back on Jake's bath days to once weekly instead of 5 days. Also I quit using the harsh medicated shampoo about 3 baths ago. I am fairly certain it was causing a lot of the excess hair loss. If Jake gets another bacterial skin infection I will just need to get the vet to recommend something milder. I started the Essential 6 Spot On last week so he has had one application. I am hoping it and the Acana Pacifica food will improve Jake's coat condition. He is actually a beautiful boy even with the thinned out coat. I notice his coat most, others tell me he is beautiful. He does not scratch or bite or seem uncomfortable in any way. Jake also gives me deep looks in the eye when he wants to go out or needs me to pet him etc. The look is so expressive, I know he is trying to say something but the look communicates well enough! Jake was born 8-31-2009. He was almost 5 months old when I got him and he had "dandruff" when I brought him home. It was a year later when I finally found out that he has ichthyosis, much too late to take him back to the breeder. Not because she wouldn't take him back, but my heart was already wrapped up. I am 65 in May and the intense cleansing schedule is hard for me, so I hope to be able to spread out the bathing to every two weeks and then longer if possible. I have my fingers crossed! I will let you know how it goes with Jake and I hope to hear how you are doing with Dino. BTW I have one of the little cat slicker brushes also. They do work nicely. I found one online. But I also have a round human hair brush with little plastic tips on all the ends which works equally as well.
It is so very nice to meet you!
Terri and Jake 
P.S. Jake is first dog I have tried to train in Agility, Obedience, and Rally
He is so smart! It is the breed. He makes me look like I know how to train
because he learns so fast and easy. He has two Obedience (BN and CD) titles and two Rally (RN and RA). We have not entered Agility trials because of my two left feet, but our class instructor has cleared us to enter this spring/summer. I hope I don't break anything!


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## Payton's Mommy (Feb 6, 2013)

Payton also has very pale fur, and black skin. My vet comented numerous times on how lovely his dark pigmentation is! He has some white flakes and some black flakes. The flakes don't seem as big or as noticeable as when I first noticed them when he was 10 weeks old. He has been having Acana Pacifica mixed in with his puppy food for about 5 weeks now, I also give him one capsule of fish oil a day and put Apple Cidar Vineagar in his water-which he loves surprisingly! He also has dogs that were imported from the Netherlands and Scotland in his breeding line. The one connection he doesn't have is the tummy problems, he is only 15 weeks old though but I hope he doesn't develop them!
My vet gave me a bottle of medicated shampoo to use weekly, and I also use the furminator conditioner on him-wow! It really seems to help with the shedding, not sure if it is helping the flakes or not though! 
I am so happy I found this thread-lots of good feedback and ideas!


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi Payton's Mom,
I saw your pictures and Payton is adorable!!! He looks a lot like Jake did as a puppy but he may be even lighter coat as an adult. He hardly has any color in the tips of his ears. They told me that the tips of ears were a good indication of their color as an adult. Has Payton been tested for Ichthyosis? Does Payton like soft toys and treat them gently? My Jake loves soft toys and does not tear them up. I had two golden retrievers which I loved dearly before Jake but they would rip a soft toy to shreds in less than 2 minutes. I am wondering if the light coated, european background dogs have a softer, calmer disposition when it comes to their play toys. Jake is always happy to just carry his toys around and parade them past us. He will play tug but needs to be encouraged and does not get rough. He has a very soft mouth and while he did like to mouth us a lot when he was a pup he never bit down on our hands or fingers. He also does not bark at other animals. He likes to watch them but will not run at or bark to scare them away. I am wondering if these traits were also part of the breeding? Have you noticed a very gentle behavior in your Payton?
Terri


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

rooroch said:


> Payton's Mommy, here is a link to Essential 6 spot on in Canada: Dermoscent Essential 6 Spot-On (Canada) Veterinary Information from Drugs.com
> I like it as it is natural and does not interfere with any other products you use on your dog.
> Savlon is a medicated cream or liquid sold over the counter in the UK. It has existed for many years and is not too strong. You can get Hibitane in Canada: Hibitane Skin Cleanser (Canada) Veterinary Information from Drugs.com which is similar.
> I hope this helps.
> Roo


Hi Roo,

Thank you for the info about Essential 6 Spot On. I have used twice on Jake now. I have not noticed a change yet but it is an 8 week course of treatment and they say many see a change after 3 or 4 weeks. I can buy the Savlon thru Amazon.com. How do you use the cream? 
Thanks,
Terri and Jake


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Some people have reported a great improvement in ichthy outbreaks by putting their affected dogs on a combination of borage oil and wild cold-water fish oil (salmon, herring, etc)


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Hello Terri, Glad to hear you are using the essential 6 . Do you like the smell? I have just finished the 8 week course and think it has made a difference, difficult to tell as I am also getting him back on 100 percent Acana Pacifica at the same time. I think I may try Allerderm spot on as well now. So one Allerderm per week and 1 essential 6 every 2 weeks!! I don't think it can do any harm. As for the Savlon. If you can get the liquid it is easier to use than the cream as you can put it right down on the skin and it is not greasy. I used the cream because I could not get the liquid here in France and always have the cream for myself.
Grit has been getting borage oil/fish oil capsules (4 per day) now for 6 months and he tolerates them well. I tried pure salmon oil and he had terrible stomach problems.
I am at last starting to see an improvement in the shedding and flaking due I think mostly to his change of food.
At least with ichthy the dogs do not scratch at all so they are not uncomfortable. I think an itchy scratchy dog must be awfully upsetting to live with and to try to cure.
Good luck everyone with trying all the different products out there and sharing the information. It makes such a difference to know I am not alone.
Roo


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## Payton's Mommy (Feb 6, 2013)

Hi Terri!
Payton has not been tested, My breeder included a page in all Payton's medical forms telling me that he may be a carrier/affected by Ichthyosis.She didn't make it seem like a big deal when I asked about it, so I figured it was just dry skin. I emailed her when I discovered flakes and she said that he probably had it. I have not contacted her asking if his parents were tested- she must have known that both his parents were carriers. My vet has been practicing for years, and used to have Goldens, he was really surprised when I told him about the Ichthyosis possibility. He said he had never heard of it in Goldens. My sister (who breeds Portuguese Water Dogs) also talked to some Golden breeders at a dog showand they had never come across it, so maybe in our area it is a fairly new thing, or being misdiagnosed.
Payton is very light, his whole litter was as are his parents. He has gotten a little darker, but not much-in fact a lady stopped me while I was walking him the other day and asked if he was a white Lab! He is very gentle with his toys, just likes to carry them around. He does like to steal things like dishtowels, socks, hairbrushes and take them all out to one place in the backyard...I joke that he is a hoarder! My mom's spaniel absolutely destroys all his toys, we haven't found one that can stand up to his abuse, so I bought all the same "tough" toys figuring Psyton would be the same-nope, everything is still in one piece  He isn't very nippy either, for about 2 weeks he would try to "bite" our hands, especially the kids, but now he just gently mouths us. So besides his dandruff, he is perfect in everyway- such a good puppy, which I am so happy about because he is our first dog!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I find your vet's response totally disheartening, and totally common. 
Ichthyosis has been around in goldens for quite a while, is fairly common, and is misdiagnosed all too frequently.
Especially the breeders....they need to be aware of it. It's not going away any time soon if people aren't educated about it.




Payton's Mommy said:


> Hi Terri!
> Payton has not been tested, My breeder included a page in all Payton's medical forms telling me that he may be a carrier/affected by Ichthyosis.She didn't make it seem like a big deal when I asked about it, so I figured it was just dry skin. I emailed her when I discovered flakes and she said that he probably had it. I have not contacted her asking if his parents were tested- she must have known that both his parents were carriers. My vet has been practicing for years, and used to have Goldens, he was really surprised when I told him about the Ichthyosis possibility. He said he had never heard of it in Goldens. My sister (who breeds Portuguese Water Dogs) also talked to some Golden breeders at a dog showand they had never come across it, so maybe in our area it is a fairly new thing, or being misdiagnosed.
> Payton is very light, his whole litter was as are his parents. He has gotten a little darker, but not much-in fact a lady stopped me while I was walking him the other day and asked if he was a white Lab! He is very gentle with his toys, just likes to carry them around. He does like to steal things like dishtowels, socks, hairbrushes and take them all out to one place in the backyard...I joke that he is a hoarder! My mom's spaniel absolutely destroys all his toys, we haven't found one that can stand up to his abuse, so I bought all the same "tough" toys figuring Psyton would be the same-nope, everything is still in one piece  He isn't very nippy either, for about 2 weeks he would try to "bite" our hands, especially the kids, but now he just gently mouths us. So besides his dandruff, he is perfect in everyway- such a good puppy, which I am so happy about because he is our first dog!


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

It's true about the toys. Grit loves anything that squeeks and will play for hours with it. I also have a labrador who breaks all the toys in a few minutes. When she was staying with a friend because she was on heat Grit had a lovely time with his toys which kept their squeek for three weeks until she came home!!


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

*Hi everybody*

Well hi, everybody!
This is a thread that has to keep running. As Hotel4dogs says it's very disheartening that the breeders AND the vets seem to be in a state of denial. I can understand the breeders ignoring it, after all if you know about it you've probably got a breeding dog with it. However the vets, what's going on there? Maybe there's no money to be made because there is no cure? So they say it's something else and, (do they know what they are doing?), sell expensive shampoo etc which has no real benefit and may actually make the condition worse. Let's hope that's not the case. I'm fairly certain it wasn't the case with my local guys. Since Dino went to the skin expert they have just been very supportive with suggestions on diet and non invasive shampoos. Also, thinking about it, I'll bet there's money to be made with this DNA test we're talking about, so they win any which way.

On the brighter side, Dino has definitely improved on Oc. Pac. and there has been no side affect on his insides, in fact they are more predictable. Before I thought he was scrounging inappropriate food around the site at work (he's a bit of a Yogi Bear) and it was upsetting his inner workings. But with the new regime things have improved and it makes cleaning up after him a lot easier! His skin is better, not a total cure, but a discernable improvement. I have not added anything else to his diet or taken anything else out. I still give him Oil of Evening Primrose, mainly because I have a big stock of this and my plan is to try the Essential 6 stuff as my supply gets low.

Don't we have the most wonderful dogs for companions. Dino has a super sqeaky toy and he will not harm it. It does sound like a puppy and I swear he tries to pick it up so it doesn't make a sound. He always fails and then he plays with it as if it's alive, rolling on his back next to it and chasing after it as it rolls away. Then he does this thing where he sits with it in his mouth looking at us and squeazes it like he's trying to talk to us, using the squeaking noise as if it might sound almost human to him. He too is gentle and laid back and the perfect dog to have around. He has never been aggressive with other dogs and if they have a go at him he just skips away waving his plume of a tail in the air with a kind of cavalier insouciance and I'm sure he's laughing at them. 

Roo, I'm sorry I couldn't talk to you for longer, the agility class was just getting going and if I don't concentrate on the course I get in the most frightful muddle. Next time hopefully we'll have time to swap more news and views.

Terri, lovely to hear how great your boy is at agility! Dino is very good at doing what I say but he's not very fast. He's so long that it's like trying to manoever the Queen Mary in Liverpool Docks, so on a tight turn to a jump he's just as likely to go under it as over it. The jumps are about 24" high so he can get underneath no trouble. Causes much hilarity with the other classmates I can tell you. He knows his 'left' from 'right' now and we can nearly 'weave' but don't let him anywhere near the seesaw, he's terrified of it, so no Crufts (most prestigious dog show in England) for us! 

In answer to the question about Savlon. I use the fluid and dilute 2 capfuls in a bath filled to a depth of 5-7cm. 

Lovely to read all those messages and the main thing that comes through is the love and devotion we feel for our dogs and the wonderful knowledge its a 2-way relationship. I really feel we could make a difference to this ichthyosis thing if we keep on talking about it.

All for now, love and regards to all, Charlotte and Dino


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Charlotte it was good to talk briefly the other day. I think you are marvelous to do agility with Dino. I saw your photo and the jumps are really high. It looks as though you do competitions too. I always watch Crufts, this year only on the TV, and the agility is incredible.
I am glad to see that Dino is having a good reaction to the new food, both with his stomach and his skin.
I have started using Hibitan liquid which I dilute a lot and swab onto his smelly place on the lower chest. Since using it the smell has gone and his coat and skin look good there so I do it now just once a week. I think you gave me the idea mentioning Hibiscrub (hibitan in France). I already had some as I use it a lot if the dogs cut their feet on walks. Our woods are full of flint stones and their pads often get a cut like with a razor blade. This stuff is brilliant for promoting healing. Thanks for giving me the idea.
When is the best time to ring you?
I am now taking the dogs out to play in all the snow we have here since yesterday.
All the best to everyone, Roo


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hello All,

I have been using the Essential 6 Spot On for 3 treatments now. Anyone else have trouble with it causing the hair to thin dramatically in the area where the spot on is placed? It worries me. His skin does not look irritated but the hair falls out a lot. From the pictures online it looks like most of the goldens with ichthyosis have a normal coat thickness. Jake's coat is very thin and he sheds constantly (hair and skin). I give him lots of skin and coat supplements, so I am at a loss for what to try. I have dropped back to one bath a week instead of two. I am afraid to cut back more because he is prone to bacterial skin infections. I also quit using the harsh Chlor 4 shampoo. His coat is very thin on his shoulders. He is not outside unless I am walking him. My groomer tells me that his coat may never get thick unless he is outside. 
When I give Jake antibiotics due to a bacterial infection he quits shedding and grows new coat very quickly. This seems strange but it is the only time he actually quits shedding. 
Any ideas?
Terri and Jake


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Terri Meserole said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I have been using the Essential 6 Spot On for 3 treatments now. Anyone else have trouble with it causing the hair to thin dramatically in the area where the spot on is placed? It worries me. His skin does not look irritated but the hair falls out a lot. From the pictures online it looks like most of the goldens with ichthyosis have a normal coat thickness. Jake's coat is very thin and he sheds constantly (hair and skin). I give him lots of skin and coat supplements, so I am at a loss for what to try. I have dropped back to one bath a week instead of two. I am afraid to cut back more because he is prone to bacterial skin infections. I also quit using the harsh Chlor 4 shampoo. His coat is very thin on his shoulders. He is not outside unless I am walking him. My groomer tells me that his coat may never get thick unless he is outside.
> When I give Jake antibiotics due to a bacterial infection he quits shedding and grows new coat very quickly. This seems strange but it is the only time he actually quits shedding.
> ...


Has he had a full thyroid panel run? The way you describe his coat sounds like a classic Golden hypothyroid problem.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I agree with Tippy's suggestion.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have read somewhere, I'm sorry I can't remember the source, that goldens with ichthyosis also seem to have more hypothyroidism.
I want to clarify about the vets. I didn't mean to imply, and I'm sorry if it came across that way, that they are ignoring icthy. I think many just are not yet familiar with it, and we need to educate them better.


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Many thanks to all my replies. Jake did have a thyroid test a long time ago. Before he was one year old. It was when I was trying to find out why he had so much "dandruff". I asked for the test. However I will have a new test run. Jake is 3 1/2 years old now. He is very laid back around the house. Sleeps alot, more than I remember my previous goldens. However he is an only dog and I fear lonely sometimes. My husband does not want two dogs. I would have a dozen! But I could not deal with two cases of ichthyosis. Jake goes to the vet for his annual next week. I will let you all know how the test comes out.
Many thanks for the suggestion!
Terri and Jake


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Terri, sorry to hear his coat is thinner where you put the essential six spot on. I have had no problems at all with it but Grit has a very thick coat. He spends a lot of the day outside when the weather is nice, even if it is cold. It is his choice, he can go in and out as he has a dog door into the house. Perhaps you could spread it out over a larger area a bit down his back.
Just for general information, he is now eating Acana P. 100 percent since 10 days with no digestion problems and has almost no dandruff or hair shedding at all. I hope this continues.
Good luck, Roo


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi Roo,

So happy to hear Grit has improved so much! Jake is eating Acana Pacifica also but still on a 2/3 Acana to 1/3 Blue Buffalo. Jake has not had stomach/intestinal problems with the Acana either. I take Jake to Vet tomorrow and will get his thyroid tested. I am almost certain everyone's suggestion about thyroid is correct. I have been blaming the ichthyosis for his thin coat and constant shedding but maybe we have two problems going on with Jake. I think the Spot On has made Jake shed built up layers of skin (which I think is a good thing). His skin is looking clearer than in a long time. He does not have any bacterial eruptions. However I did not put Spot on him this week, thought I would wait until after the vet appointment. I think the Spot On is a great treatment for the ichthyosis since I believe is gets the old layers to release and then you have less skin shedding when you get down to their base skin layer. However until I can find the reason for Jake's extreme hair loss at this time I do not want to risk a bald spot appearing. Jake has symmetrical hair loss and especially around his tail. His rear legs have shed a lot of his feathers. His neck ruff is very thin etc etc. I am so happy to believe it may be something which is curable instead of the ichthyosis which is not. I have my fingers and toes crossed! And once again CONGRATS on finding some help for Grit's flaking!
Terri and Jake


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Hi Terri.
Glad to hear that maybe Jake's flakes are reducing and also that he is not having any bacterial eruptions. I agree that the flakes seem to come off together and now there do not seem to be any more forming. When I part his hair his skin all looks nice and pink with no flakes.
It does sound like a thyroid problem for Jake. I did not realise that Ichthyosis and thyroid were linked. Good to know.
It seems crazy to say it but I hope Jake's thyroid test is positive so you can get a cure for his coat thinning.
Why don't you try the Allerderm Spot on once you have finished the Essential 6. It has no smell and is does not make the coat greasy - I thought it would - but it seems to soak in really well. I have done two weeks now (one per week) and think it helps.
It is just so lovely to have a house which is not covered in "snow".
Good luck at the vets.
Roo


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hello Everyone,

I took Jake to vet Monday and requested the thyroid panel. The vet was very doubtful about a thyroid problem. She thought he was having seasonal shedding and his thin coat is because of the ichthyosis. I told her about the forum and the suggestions from people who know golden retrievers. We settled on a compromise. She ran a Senior Panel (Jake is 3 1/2) which she said would give her information on all his systems and would indicate a low thyroid at which time a full thyroid panel could be run if necessary. Well she called yesterday and said Jake's blood work was great in every regard except he has a very low thyroid. She is now running the full thyroid panel and hopes to have it back by Friday when they will prescribe medication. She was apologetic about missing the diagnosis. She said she was wrong and she doesn't like getting it wrong. I told her I don't care about who's right - wrong I am just so happy that Jake can be treated for this problem and maybe grow a normal golden retriever coat. I will be so glad to get to just the flaking skin problem. Slowly I seem to be getting there. Jake's soft stool/diarrhea problems seem to be gone. His "picky eater" problems are gone because his stomach doesn't hurt anymore. Now I hope fixing Jake's thyroid will get rid of the recurrent bacterial skin problems and the constant thinning coat. Thank goodness for the internet and this forum.
Thank you all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Terri and Jake

P.S. The vet was wondering if there is a connection between ichthyosis and the thyroid. I told her about Hotel for Dogs comment. I also told her that the forum was wondering about a connection with the IBD issues, etc. I think she is engaged with our problems now.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Good news Terri. It is great when a vet accepts that they are wrong and gets interested in a problem.
How are the flakes doing? Getting less I hope.
Have a happy Easter everyone
Roo


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## Charlotteanddino (Jan 24, 2013)

Hi all, sorry I've been quiet lately, I've been reading all the posts but not finding time to put in a reply.

Terri, I am so happy for you! It takes some courage to argue with a professional, respect is due and how fantastic you were right. I'm looking forward to hearing Jake is improving.

Roo, my Dino continues to show improvement. I've got him on a course of Allerderm and am trying the Essential 6 Spot on stuff. I've stopped giving him Oil of Evening Primrose. Lots of changes at once so it may be difficult to tell what's made the difference. 

My observations are that his skin seems to be pink and healthy in a most areas and he smells much better. His fur feels non-greasy and softer. He looks spectacular after I've groomed him. I'm trying to groom instead of bathing so as not to undo the good that the spot-on pipettes are doing. It's easier on my back too! I'm hoping that the flakes I'm getting off him are 'old' if you know what I mean. He has a thick mane and bloomers and that's where the worst of it is. There are also bad areas at the top of his hind legs over his thigh where there is swirl of fur growing in all directions. Dino's flakes are definitely dark, so I would not call them 'snow' as such, is this the same for everyone or are there variations of Ichthy? I guess there are bound to be, but I wonder if the colour/condition of the flakes indicates the way to control it. As we are all basically shooting in the dark I'll bet we'll not find out in the life-time of our current charges.

Well, love to all, I'm so glad I joined this forum, hope you all had great Easter. Dino had a great time, our two children (not children anymore, daughter 32 and son 27) were home and Dino got love/walk/wrestle overload!

Looking forward to hearing from you all,
Charlotte and Dino


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## Sadie53 (Dec 27, 2012)

*Icthysosis Five years and counting*

Hi there. I learned something new today with your post. I went to google and read up on it. It sounds challenging and I am very glad it does not seem to bother your dog. Do you have to give him skin conditioners. Was it noticeable when you brought him home? I find this interesting as I had never heard of it before. Thank you for sharing:wave:


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Hello everyone,
I hope you all had a lovely Easter. Here in France it was very cold but lovely blue sky and dry. Great for walking in the woods with crunchy leaves.
Charlotte I am glad things seems to be getting better. Grit does have a few darker flakes that seem to be stickier than the white ones. They are also in the neck and front chest area where he has lots of thick hair. This is where he can get smelly. I swab with very much diluted Hibitan now once a week. I work it into the fur and the smell and flakes seem to reduce hugely.
Is Dino's skin dark where he has dark flakes? Grits skin is all pink except in the lower chest area where the flakes are also darker.
The white flakes on his back and flanks have almost all gone, just one or two from time to time.
When you take him to the goomers do they thin out the hair? How do they do it? I have looked at a Furminator but it rather scares me. I do not know if it is good for the coat.
When I watched Crufts on the TV the Golden Best of Breed winner (the owner/breeder is also a member of this forum) was trimmed on the neck to hardly have any thick hair at all. It looks much more practical especially as Grit is in the river the whole time and only gets dry at night!!
Corine, yes Grit had dandruff right from the age of 8 weeks. Does your Golden have this problem?
I am looking forward to hearing from Terri about Jake's thyroid tests and any information her vet comes up with.
All the best,
Roo


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## Sadie53 (Dec 27, 2012)

*Icthyosis. 5yrs. and counting*

Hi rooroch. No my girl Sadie does not have this condition. I did not even know the condition existed til yesterday. It will be very interesting to see the results of the thyroid test.:bowl:


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

*Seeing a Dermatologist....finally*

I am back......the original poster of this message several months ago. Wish us luck as I cam taking my boy to see a board cert Vet Dermatologist. His has been flaky really bad lately and I have to be cautious with oils, as it could cause a flair in his IBS type issues.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Good luck NikNik and looking forward to news of your Dermatologist visit.


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## NikNik (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks. I am interested to see if she will treat his skin condition any differently than what has already been suggested. I will post during the week what happened.


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## Rebecca.K (Jan 7, 2014)

Hey everyone,
Ive never posted here before, but I have a 14 month old golden who I'm pretty sure has ichthyosis......our breeder had her dogs tested this year and my Lexi's mom came back as affected and her father is a carrier......and Lexi has been having constant flakes since the day we brought her home. Anyways, she has also had a lot of hair loss in the past few months which is odd because its winter and I thought her fur would thicken up, but instead since summer, it's only gotten thinner.......which I read Terri was having that problem with her dog and I am wondering Terri, if your dogs hairloss has gotten better since starting the thyroid meds. Lexi has her annual checkup this week and I am wondering if I should request a thyroid panel too? 

Any other new treatments for thr ichthyosis that anyone has found helpful since last posting? I have Lexi on Acana Pacifica and fish oil supplements, bathing every 1-2 wks, allerderm spot on treatment every week or so. I have to brush her belly at least daily because her belly is SO flaky. It's gotten so much worse the last month or 2, wondering if the terribly cold weather has anything to do with it......I'm in Minnesota  During the summer her flakes were barely noticeable.


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

Hi Rebecca,

Jake did test positive for a low thyroid last March as so many golden retriever owners told me. Our vet did not believe and did not want to run the test but I insisted because of the advice on the forum. We are still in the stage of trying to get his thyroid up to the recommended numbers. His last test was still low. He started on a .3 mm twice a day and is now up to .6 twice a day. His hair loss has improved. He does have a nice coat now (still not up to golden retriever standards) but I do not feel like I need to put a coat on him when we go out. Your dog sounds similar to Jake because Jake continued to lose hair all winter and his coat became very thin. The first time I had Jake tested for thyroid he was about one year old and the test said his thyroid was OK. That was before I had the test done for genetic skin conditions. We had no idea about ichthyosis. They actually removed plugs of skin and hair surgically for the test. I hope there are better ways available now.
I still bathe Jake once a week and he loses hair during the wash and dry process. Just now I have decided to try once every two weeks since he has not had a bacterial infection in over a year. Jake used to get bacterial infections which required antibiotics. His hair would stop falling out and his coat would thicken dramatically when he was on the antibiotics but about two weeks after stopping the antibiotics we would go the other way. He would lose all the hair he gained and would develop infections again. I put him on a low dose of Chinese herbal antibiotics which helped a lot in preventing new bacterial infections and his coat did improve but was still very thin. I am hoping that his coat will continue to improve as we get his thyroid up to normal levels. I have stopped giving the Chinese herbs and he has not developed new infections; I credit the improved thyroid levels for this. I feed him ACANA Pacifica, 3 Vit A pills at 8000 iu each, NuVet Plus one a day vitamin, and K-9 Show Stopper supplement. The K-9 Show Stopper is a supplement in powder form since Jake cannot tolerate the fish oil supplements. Please let me know anything you find to help and I will do the same for you.

I am attaching a recent photo of Jake so you can see (somewhat) his improved coat.

Terri and Jake


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## Rebecca.K (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi Terri,
Jake is such a handsome guy! 
Have you ever used the Humilac spray? I just started using that in the last couple weeks and Lexi 's skin, especially on her abdomen, has really improved a lot. I think it has improved the most on her belly because she has the least amount of hair there so it probably soaks in better.
Regarding Lexi's hair loss.....I had the Vet check out her thyroid but it came back normal. So I'm guessing it's mostly due to the frequent baths and the harsh shampoos. So I've just switched her shampoo to a gentler one that has oatmeal, echinachea and almond oil in it and then I put a conditioner on after and that has olive oil, shea oil and green tea extract in it. I also have started to gently brush her with a fine tooth dog brush after her bath because it helps get a lot of that loosened skin off without pulling very much hair.And I'm going to try to hold off her baths to every 2 weeks or so and we will see if that helps. The other problem we have with her is she tends to be a little itchy too....Mainly her armpits which was the first place we had noticed hairloss.
The other thing I started doing this month was adding a raw egg to her food once daily. This has made her coat a little fluffier and shinier. Not sure if that has contributed to her improved skin or not.
I will also attach a picture of Lexi so you can see her thin coat.

Rebecca (and Lexi)


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## cherie1291 (Feb 1, 2014)

Hi, our golden retriever Ginger was diagnosed with ichthyosis a year ago. It took some experimenting and advice from a local dermatologist but we have found a routine that seems to keep the condition manageable. This is our weekly routine:

Bathe once weekly with Duoxo chlorhexadine shampoo + virbac episoothe conditioner + virbac resisoothe leave in conditioner. Leave shampoo in for 10 minutes, 5 or so with the conditioner rinse.

In between baths and twice a week we exfoliate skin gently by brushing fur in circular motion tip to tail. After exfoliation spray with Duoxo Calm Spray + Duoxo sebborea moisture drops on very dry areas. Aveeno baby moisturizer on her belly and nipples which are very dry and prone to cracking/bleeding.

Ears are cleaned once per week with an anti-fungal/anti-bacterial wash from the vet.

She's on fish oil and also hypoallergenic food. Not sure if the food really makes any difference. 

Ginger is prone to fungal infections if we don't strictly follow the hygiene routine. There are still always flakes, but it keeps them from building up too much which can cause itching/infections. We also keep her hair short, puppy cut style. The long hair makes it really difficult to get the products to the skin. Fortunately Ginger loves the treatments and comes a running when she sees the equipment come out.

Thought I would share since there doesn't seem to be a lot of information regarding this condition.


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## mcgorman (Apr 8, 2009)

Hallelujah! I'm so glad I found this thread. NikNik, I could have written your first post. I have a five y/o golden Genny who we have decided has icthyosis. I spent about 3 years trying everything under the sun. We just started allerderm and I'm curious to see if it helps. I'll keep an eye on this thread. Genny also has a nearly continuous hot spot on her knee. She has been through many rounds of antibiotics and steroids sometimes lasting for months. We are on our 4th vet and I really like her. She seems genuinely interested in looking for solutions. With the other vets I got a lot of "well it isn't really bothering her so let's see what happens" kind of answers.

Matt


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Steroids do nothing for ichthyosis....


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## mcgorman (Apr 8, 2009)

Steroids for anti itch with her hot spot. Not icthyosis.


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## Darthsadier (May 17, 2013)

Is redness normal for dogs with Ichthyosis. Sadie has it but with the winter months I noticed that her bare belly has a red irritated patch. I'm going to call the vet but wanted your input. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

only if there's a secondary skin infection, which isn't uncommon.


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## Darthsadier (May 17, 2013)

Thanks I called the vet and they said it looks like she has been licking it because she is bored. They suggest some poly and t-shirt. Here is her belly it looked a tad better when I got home









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## astomb (Dec 28, 2013)

I have read the thread for start to the end. I have had 7 GR pups and I finally get one that is essentially sound and got health clearances three years ago after she turned two. I knew nothing about ichthyosis. After I bred her, I learned that she has a 50 50 chance of being an ichthyosis carrier. I have talked owners who have affected dogs and they say it does not affect their work and it does not seem to bother them. I will have my dog tested for ichthyosis test next week. If she is clear, half of the pups will be carriers. If she is a carrier, 25% will be affected and 50% will be carriers and 25% will be clear. Now what should I do? If she is clear it is an easy path I tell buyers that there is a chance that the pup they buy is a carrier and should be tested for the problem before they breed the dog. If I have bred a carrier to a carrier, I will test the litter. That knowledge presents an ethical problem. Should I put down the affected pups or do I sell them for much less with a limited registration and an agreement that they will not be bred. How have others dealt with this problem?


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

This is a condition that has always been with the breed and it is widespread. While it isn't something new, the ability to test for it is relatively new. 

Your responsibility as a breeder should be to not produce affected puppies. (It is impossible to produce genetically perfect puppies because dogs are living things, not engineered products.) If you produce an affected pup, you will likely see some flakes (dander) before they leave your care. What you choose to do with affecteds is entirely up to you. Prior to the last couple of years it was just dismissed as puppy dander in all but the most extreme cases. 

As a breeder you have no control over what a prospective buyer chooses to do with their puppy. If they choose to breed their pup, it is their responsibility to determine the Icthyosis status of their dog as well as doing the health clearance exams.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

astomb said:


> I have read the thread for start to the end. I have had 7 GR pups and I finally get one that is essentially sound and got health clearances three years ago after she turned two. I knew nothing about ichthyosis. After I bred her, I learned that she has a 50 50 chance of being an ichthyosis carrier. I have talked owners who have affected dogs and they say it does not affect their work and it does not seem to bother them. I will have my dog tested for ichthyosis test next week. If she is clear, half of the pups will be carriers. If she is a carrier, 25% will be affected and 50% will be carriers and 25% will be clear. Now what should I do? If she is clear it is an easy path I tell buyers that there is a chance that the pup they buy is a carrier and should be tested for the problem before they breed the dog. If I have bred a carrier to a carrier, I will test the litter. That knowledge presents an ethical problem. Should I put down the affected pups or do I sell them for much less with a limited registration and an agreement that they will not be bred. How have others dealt with this problem?


Wait...If she is a carrier bred to a clear, each pup has a 1 in 4 chance of being a carrier. Having a litter that is 100% clear is a possible outcome. Another possible outcome in a litter is 100% carrier. The probability tells us that it is not likely to get these results but these results are possibilities.

I took this example to show that there is a difference between probability of genotype of each pup and what you might actually get in a litter.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

She thinks she might have bred her to a carrier, in which case she is correct, statistically 25% of the dogs will be affected, 50% will be carriers, and 25% will be clear.
But to answer the question, good Lord, do not put the puppies down!! My older boy was ICT affected, he lived and gave us joy for 14 wonderful years. 
If you want, you can have the litter tested to see which are affected, and then inform the puppy buyers of the condition. In most Goldens, ichthyosis is relatively mild.


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## anncatharine (Dec 3, 2013)

My boy Roscoe was diagnosed with icthyosis today, just shy of his 6mo birthday. He doesn't seem bothered by his condition, albeit unsightly when he gets nervous. I honestly don't care of Roe is purple with 8 legs so long as he isn't uncomfortable. Being a pediatric RN I've seen how devastating this condition can be in humans, and am blessed that Roe isn't uncomfortable. 
I am still working on a treatment that works well, so I would love any suggestions anyone may have. 


Roe loves, rain, snow and cold weather...I'm also considering changing him over to an all raw diet. 


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## Rebecca.K (Jan 7, 2014)

anncatharine said:


> My boy Roscoe was diagnosed with icthyosis today, just shy of his 6mo birthday. He doesn't seem bothered by his condition, albeit unsightly when he gets nervous. I honestly don't care of Roe is purple with 8 legs so long as he isn't uncomfortable. Being a pediatric RN I've seen how devastating this condition can be in humans, and am blessed that Roe isn't uncomfortable.
> I am still working on a treatment that works well, so I would love any suggestions anyone may have.
> 
> 
> ...



What have you tried so far for treatment? I've heard a raw diet does help some. I have switched my dog to Acana Pacifica food at the suggestion of others, and that has helped tremendously and I put a raw egg on her food everyday which seems to help too. Fish oils on food too.
I use Humilac spray on her every few days.....and also allerderm spot on treatment every week or 2.
I found this website somewhat helpful.......Outbackgold, Golden Retrievers, Katherine, Northern Territory, Australia
It might take some trial and error to figure out what treatment works best for your dog. Good luck!

Rebecca


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## anncatharine (Dec 3, 2013)

Funny enough I can across the same article that you posted in your response. I've actually been treating him the same as we do in our pediatric cases of icthyosis, & cellulitis until now. We do coconut oil, wet wraps, Vit A & E and the omegas 6 & 9. 
I'm also doing a nutrition consult with Datwin's all raw meal plans, anxiety to hear back from them!

Where do you get the alloderm? 


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## astomb (Dec 28, 2013)

gdgli said:


> Wait...If she is a carrier bred to a clear, each pup has a 1 in 4 chance of being a carrier. Having a litter that is 100% clear is a possible outcome. Another possible outcome in a litter is 100% carrier. The probability tells us that it is not likely to get these results but these results are possibilities.
> 
> I took this example to show that there is a difference between probability of genotype of each pup and what you might actually get in a litter.


gdali:
If a clear dog is bred to a carrier then the probability of carriers in the litter is 50% and more important is that none of the pups will be affected.

The results of the test are back from Optigen and our female is CLEAR. 


Spencer


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That's great news! None of the puppies can be affected if the dam is clear.




astomb said:


> gdali:
> If a clear dog is bred to a carrier then the probability of carriers in the litter is 50% and more important is that none of the pups will be affected.
> 
> The results of the test are back from Optigen and our female is CLEAR.
> ...


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## Terri Meserole (Feb 17, 2013)

*Ichthyosis genetics*

High School is so far back but this is what I remember when two recessive genes are required to produce a condition (i.e., icthyosis affected). One recessive gene is received from the male and one recessive gene from the female. A carrier has one dominant gene and one recessive gene. An affected has two recessive genes. A clear has two dominant genes. If you breed an affected to a clear you will have puppies with one dominant gene from the clear parent and one recessive gene from the affected parent. This will mean that all puppies from this breeding will be carriers but will not be affected. If you breed an affected dog to a carrier, you risk producing affected puppies. If you breed two carriers you risk producing affected puppies.
BB= clear 
Bb= carrier
bb= affected

BB + Bb = BB or Bb puppies
Bb + Bb = BB or Bb or bb puppies
BB + bb = Bb puppies
bb + bb = bb puppies

Please correct me if this is wrong.

Terri


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

Hi, new to this site but so glad I've found it! My girl Blue 5mths has just been diagnosed with Ichthyosis. This was confirmed by skin samples.
My vet had never heard for it and dos a Google search to find out more. Her first response to me that it was a rare, sever diease, non curable and would result in us having to put her down in time. Hence to say I was a mess as we have just put our 7yr old golden x lab to sleep from liver failure in July. 
Upon starting my own research into this condition I have now discovered that it is managable and not as bad as what she said. Appreciate they haven't come across it here in the UK but found it very difficult to accept that she felt best to ultimately put her to sleep ð¢ I have ordered a lot of natural oils and moisture treatments for her today, did switch her food to Burns lamb and rice as she didnt tolerate chicken based food. She is however itchy so wondering if has allergy to the grains? Was thyroid tested but that was clear, my other dog was diagnosed with low thyroid at one. Just wondered if anyone else experiences the itchy skin with this? She also has developed a hot spot on her back paw. Many thanks


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Vets drive me mad sometimes. Your dog does not need to be put down because of ichthyosis!! Blue normally should not be itchy because of this hereditary problem. The name comes from the word for fish scales (I think in latin) as the skin flakes look like fish scales. She is probably itching from her food.
I use Acana Pacifica grain free (you can buy it in the UK), Gastrix digestive supplement from Hilton Herbs (in the UK) and Dr Mercolas pet probiotics also available in the UK (all this on line). My GR Grit also has a tea spoon of organic apple cider vinegar in his food (plus some water) twice a day. The ACV helps against hot spots. He gets a supplement of omega 6 & 3 capsules in his food each day too. He still flakes but not too much and does not itch at all.
Good luck with Blue. There is also a breeder in Darwin Australia who has written a very good article on her web site about ichthyosis and how she feeds her bitch with it. I cannot remember her kennel name but if you google ichthyosis it will come up.


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

The breeder in Australia is Outbackgold golden retrievers


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

This is especially concerning as it's more common across the pond! 
Sorry to hear about your dog, but my older boy lived 14 quality years with Ichthyosis. It tends to get better and worse on and off, but generally right around her age is pretty bad. When she gets more mature it's likely to be better.




Jayne74 said:


> Hi, new to this site but so glad I've found it! My girl Blue 5mths has just been diagnosed with Ichthyosis. This was confirmed by skin samples.
> My vet had never heard for it and dos a Google search to find out more. Her first response to me that it was a rare, sever diease, non curable and would result in us having to put her down in time. Hence to say I was a mess as we have just put our 7yr old golden x lab to sleep from liver failure in July.
> Upon starting my own research into this condition I have now discovered that it is managable and not as bad as what she said. Appreciate they haven't come across it here in the UK but found it very difficult to accept that she felt best to ultimately put her to sleep ð¢ I have ordered a lot of natural oils and moisture treatments for her today, did switch her food to Burns lamb and rice as she didnt tolerate chicken based food. She is however itchy so wondering if has allergy to the grains? Was thyroid tested but that was clear, my other dog was diagnosed with low thyroid at one. Just wondered if anyone else experiences the itchy skin with this? She also has developed a hot spot on her back paw. Many thanks


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

Thank you for your replies. I have ordered blue AP today, small bag to try first to see if she tolerates it ok. Have also ordered her
Allerderm Spot On 
Dermoscent Essential 6 Skin Supplement 
Efavet 330 Efavet 660 EFA Capsules 
Humilac Spray 250mls

She was being bathed every other day in Malaseb, poor girl looked like a leopard, so much black skin coming off! Because she has stictches from her biopoys unable to be bathed for last 10 days which has actually made a huge difference to the flakes? Is now on antibiotics as stictches are infected, few weeks ago also had a bacterial infection. The breeder had never heard of this and I have asked her to find out if the other pups are also showing signs of this. 
Read the aussie link, being australian myself know what he's talking about  interesting how common it is there. Have tried to upload photos of Blue, she is adorable and it is comforting to know I'm not alone and all is not lost. Do any of your dogs suffering from the split paws? Have read about that and that is a concern for me


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

My beautiful girl


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Oh dear your poor little girl has had a rough time lately. Part of the problem with ichthyosis can be dry feet and weak nails. I give Grit a zinc supplement every day (once) in his food. It is for Huskies (sled dogs) that have a problem with zinc deficiency. I give Nutrazinc that comes from Alaska but is sold here in France. It is very concentrated and for Grit who weighs 40 kg (88 lbs) I take his pot of Dr. Mercola pet pro biotics powder which lasts one month and mix into it 6 of the tiny scoops that come with the zinc powder. Like that I have the dose for him per day for one month. On the pot it says 1 scoop (tiny) per day for 3 dogs each weighing 50 lbs!! So I did the math and my solution seems to work. His feet do not crack any more and his nails are very strong.
If you look at the page on the Outbackgold web site she uses a zinc supplement also.
I do not bath Grit at all. It is too difficult for me living on my own with just a large iron bath. I cannot get him in or out. He plays in the river by my house every day all year round and this seems to be good for his skin. So I have never used a shampoo!! I brush him every day with a soft slicker brush. You must not irritate the skin with a rake or hard brush. It makes the ichthyosis worse.
I hope after some trial and error (as we have all done) you will find the food and supplements that work the best for Blue and she will continue to have a long and happy life.
Oh yes, when you switch to a new food, especially one like AP which is high in protein, take it slowly, very slowly. One week 1/4 AP and 3/4 old food, if all goes well try 1/2 and 1/2 then 3/4 AP and 1/4 old food. Take your time. The Gastrix from Hilton herbs really helped Grit digest his food and I continue to give it. One of the symptoms of ichthy can be a delicate stomach. I do not give treats, only his food as treats. I always have some in my pocket!! Blue has also been on antibiotics I think so you must get some good probiotics to help her intestinal flora regenerate.
It all seems like a lot and really complicated but once you have it all sorted it becomes routine at feeding time.


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

She has poor girl, but my last girl also suffered for the first few months of her life with skin issues and food intolerance so I'm used to it. It is just understanding and learning all about this diease. I am seeing a naturopath tomorrow to get blue on zinc and probiotics. 
Thank you for your advice re food, have just ordered a small bag to start as it's expensive if she doesn't like or tolerate it! 
Had to bath her yesterday as she had mud from head to toe! Used oatmeal and aloe shampoo but ironically her skin is really flaky today! Going to see my vet (mine was away when diagnosis came through) so will be interested to see her thoughts! 
Really appreciate all help on this thanks jayne & blue


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

When Grit gets into mud, often here in the country, I just bucket bath him with warm water and sponge. No shampoo involved. I change the water to clean once all the mud is off for a rinse and then towel dry. When dry give a brush and anything that is left comes out.
Good idea about a naturopath. Interesting to see what they say.
AP is expensive but a very good food if Blue tolerates it and the skin gets better. There is no cure for this but it can be regularised with the right diet and supplements for the dog. It also does seem to diminish as the dog gets older.


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

Hear mixed reports on bathing them, see that a lot of people bathe weekly with special shampoo & conditioner. I'm not so sure since blue had her bath and skin flakes have become worse. On the plus side the breeder in now DNA testing her stud and bitch to see if they are carriers, I think I'm going to do the same with blue to get a definite answer. 
Such a trail and error process but I'm sure we will get there  
Hope your weather isn't turning as quick as ours is here in London ... Overnight winter has arrived! Wondering if the central heating is also having an impact on her skin 
Take care & thank you, Jayne & Blue


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

DNA is how I knew Grit had it. The vet thought it was fleas or mites but I got the DNA kit from the lab that does the testing and he signed the paper and did the swab and it came back positive - as I knew it would!! My breeder was not happy with this and has not spoken to me since I gave her the information. She is still using Grit's father at stud but not the mother. I do not know if she tests now. Both your breeder's bitch and dog must be carriers to have had a puppy with ichthy. 
Yesterday was cold, about 3C but today is a bit warmer with strong wind and rain. I have not found the central heating to make a difference. If anything it is better as he dries out much quicker after going in the river!!


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

Blue was diagnosed via skin samples but the vet did say about doing DNA testing to confirm?! I have been in contact with my breeder and she is now doing DNA testing on her dogs that she breeds with which is great. I've been really lucky that she has taken this seriously. Blue may have worse since the bath I gave her, today covered in mud from head to toe as she loves to commando crawl along the grass! Have just rubbed her down and will brush off the excess dirt later! Cold here, winter well and truly arrived! Will keep you posted as to what my vet has to say next week... Think I'm going to be more and with info now than she will be! Thanks Jayne & Blue


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Nice that your breeder takes this seriously. Maybe Blue loves the mud as she feels it helps her skin!! I hope it gets a bit better now that you have stopped the baths with shampoo. You could also bath without shampoo if it is easier. I just can't get Grit into the bath!!
Some vets like to learn new things, I hope yours is one of these. Look forward to hearing what they say. Have a nice muddy week-end.


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

Well this was her today! She's happy! Will keep
You informed, have a great weekend  jayne & blue


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## Holly's Mum (Oct 4, 2014)

Jayne74 said:


> Well this was her today! She's happy! Will keep
> 
> You informed, have a great weekend  jayne & blue



She's a sweetheart! I hope you get to the bottom of it and find something that helps her. My girl us a mud wallower too, she particularly likes a good roll in the mud! I just hose her down in the bath, she only gets a shampoo every few months, or if she's managed to roll in something particularly disgusting!

Burns also do a maize based food, I was going to switch my girl over to it if her tummy hadn't settled down. 

Good luck!


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

She is delightful, loves comando crawling along grass & mud in the fields! I hear mixed reports re bathing, I feel her skin is better and less flaky when she's bathed less. Spoke to a natropath yesterday who also works in a vets. Gave me great advise. For blues hotspots I'm now using aloe vera on them, if I need to bath her going to use tea tree shampoo. Basically she said anything natural we would use as adults we can give dogs as I think blue has had to many creams and baths which chemicals in that are t helping this condition.
Her new food Anaca Pacifica arrives Monday so looking forward to seeing how she goes on that, so she will be grain free now as well. She's allegric to chicken as well . Enjoy weekend .. Jayne & blue


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

She looks lovely covered in mud. As you can from the sig pic I just put in, Grit loves mud too!! Glad the naturopath was helpful. Tea tree is a good natural product. I have a spray called Oz Oil which is for dry cleaning horses without giving them a bath. Just spray it on the dirty place and wipe off with paper towel. It is tea tree oil based and works quite well with fox poo for example!!
Go slowly, as I said before, with the food and I hope she digests it well and you can end up feeding this 100%.
Have a nice week-end too. It is sunny but cold here and the trees look fantastic in the sun with their autumn colours. I live on the edge of a very large wood where I walk every day and it is really beautiful now.


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## Rebecca.K (Jan 7, 2014)

Jayne74,

Blue is too cute! What a pretty girl!

I would just like to add that my girl, Lexi......while I haven't actually done the biopsy yet to confirm ichthyosis (after her symptoms got worse......we were always just told it was puppy dandruff but I knew better, our breeder got her dogs tested for ich, and Lexi's mom came back as affected And dad was a carrier), I saw the most improvement with switching to grain free food, Acana Pacifica. I also use oils on her food, and Allerderm spot on treatment once a week. I also give her a raw egg daily, which also helps her skin and fur.
I used to bathe her once a week but found the more I leave her skin alone, the better it is. I find the bathing just aggravates it....especially if it's harsher shampoos. When I do bathe her, it's with gentle shampoos that have aloe vera, oatmeal, etc in it.
I would also like to add, that unlike most dogs with Ichthyosis, my dog Lexi IS itchy. And her fur seems to be thinner where she's more flakier. I'm not sure if it's ichthyosis related or not, but she has always itched under her armpits and her hair is very sparse there.....however, it makes me think it is ichthyosis related, because her skin is more black there than anywhere else. I'll attach a picture of it if I can. She also has a hot spot on her elbow that won't seem to heal. However, besides the underarm itching which is totally manageable, she is comfortable, which is the most important thing.


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

Thank you Rebecca. She is beautiful & just so loving! Her Anaca Pacifica arrived today so have started her on 1/4 mixed with her lamb & rice. She woofed it down! Hoping she won't react to it in anyway. She's on fish oil, zinc, spot on oil for skin. Am putting paw paw cream on her hot spot on paw (it's australian, but like tea tree) have stopped bathing and that's making a huge difference. Her shedding has slowed down a lot this past week so I'm hopeful that this is all working. Did read that thyroid can also go hand in hand with this so maybe that's why she's black? My last dog had very similar symptoms and was diagnosed with thyroid at just over 1yr. Vets 2morrow so think will be more informed than them! Will let you know how she goes ... Jayne & Blue x


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## Jayne74 (Nov 6, 2014)

So Blue got a glowing report from vet. Basvially
Everything we are going for her has already made a massive difference. She couldn't get over how pink and soft her skin has become already. We are going to start trimming her hair around her paws to help them and have chosen not to bath her unless absolutely necessary. Just wonder if anyone has used or heard of cocunut oil? Helps fight yeast and bacterial infections which I know Blue is more prone to with this condition. Thanks Jayne & Blue


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Glad that things seem to be improving. I have never used coconut oil but some one on here does, I cannot remember who. Grit does not tolerate extra oil (fish, coconut, etc.) in his food as he has a very sensitive stomach.
Paw paw cream is great. My sister who lives in Australia sends it to me. You can get it in the UK but it is very expensive.
I hope all goes well with the food and that her skin settles down. She is lovely.


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## Kmgaustad (Nov 12, 2020)

rooroch said:


> Charlotteanddino, glad to hear that Dino is tolerating the new food and I hope you get some good results.
> I am in the UK for a few days and would love to chat on the phone. I do not have enough posts to send PM so if you would like to get in touch you could text my mobile - it's a french number 0033 677815937. I am staying near Northampton.
> I have seen photos of Dino and see that he is very pale colour. Grit is also very pale and I noticed that some of the others with ichthyosis are pale too. I wonder if the colour strain of pale has more ichthyosis gene than the darker golden colour. Just a thought.
> Hoping to hear from you.
> Roo



The very light color Goldens are called English Creme golden retrievers. They are easily identified from the American Golden Retriever by that light color. 

Only 17% of English Creme goldens in Europe do not have the gene that causes ichthyosis, so it will be much more common in the English creme variation.


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## Kmgaustad (Nov 12, 2020)

hotel4dogs said:


> I find your vet's response totally disheartening, and totally common.
> Ichthyosis has been around in goldens for quite a while, is fairly common, and is misdiagnosed all too frequently.
> Especially the breeders....they need to be aware of it. It's not going away any time soon if people aren't educated about it.


You have an English Creme golden retriever. They are much lighter than American Golden retrievers. Only about 17% of English cremes in Europe do not have the gene that causes ichthyosis, so it is very common for this member of the breed.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Your numbers might be right- I dk of any Eastern Euro Goldens who do not have the ICT gene. But don't confuse the Eastern Euro dogs with the European dogs. They are not the same pedigrees, not the same breeding standards. EEurope dogs are pretty much imo cranking out puppies to be placed in US byb hands. No real serious breeding there. Just money. OTOH- Italian, UK dogs are very serious breeding programs for the most part and it is a rare breeder in the US who'd be trusted w a UK pedigree.


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

Kmgaustad said:


> You have an English Creme golden retriever. They are much lighter than American Golden retrievers. Only about 17% of English cremes in Europe do not have the gene that causes ichthyosis, so it is very common for this member of the breed.


I second what Prism Goldens says. Please don’t bracket UK bred Goldens, even cream coloured ones, in with Eastern European goldens. 
Also ‘English Creme’ isn’t a big think in the uk like it is in the USA. Yes there a lighter coloured confirmation goldens that would be considered acceptable in the show ring with the cream colour. But reputable GR breeders don’t make a huge thing out of the cream colour for marketing purposes.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I have a very dark red field bred Golden with ICT and in doing research of my own though it was more common in field lines here in the US. Guess I was wrong? Either way testing is available and responsible breeder's can avoid breeding two carriers to produce affected dogs. 

On a side note Moe has what I'm guessing is a very mild case. It is really not a problem unless he has stress of any sort. If he is stressed about anything he will suddenly have huge flakes. It does make me wonder what will happen as he ages. Will it be awful when he's older and not as healthy as he is currently?


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## Jimrod (6 mo ago)

Hi guys, just bookmarking this thread to read later really, I have an 8.5 week old Golden (Wilson) from Gloucestershire in England who I think has Ichthyosis, I knew it was a risk as the Dam has no KC info and the Sire I later found out is a carrier. He has very dark pigment and light dandruff flakes (a lot after brushing) so I'd like to read through all this when I get a chance!

I'd asked around about the dark pigment and no link was made, apparently all checked healthy by the vet when he was chipped/vaccinated last week before I picked him up too! As it is it doesn't seem to bother him and from what I read is pretty mild in Goldens, he scratches one leg fairly frequently so I'll keep an eye on it, have to wait a couple of weeks for my own vet appointment to register sadly. Also read they can grow out of it but won't bank on that. He seems happy enough at least!


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I have never had a golden or any dog with this trouble, so can be of no help at all. But I just wanted to say your little girl is adorable.. I would love to kiss that sweet face. And I wish you and the little guythe best of luck and hope his trouble can be cleared up or at least controlled.


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