# My two Golden's attacked by COYOTES



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

How awful. Are you dogs ok? Will the authorities try to remove the coyotes?


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Oh my God how awful! How are your dogs now? I pray that they heal quickly.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Oh my Lord! Are you and your dogs okay? That is terrifying - I totally agree - I'd never think a coyote would attack in Toronto! What park were you in?? There are a few of us here who live here. Holy crap. I'm glad you were able to get away.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Northern coyotes are typically larger than their southern cousins, but a 70 pound male is close to record size! How badly were you and your dogs injured? Where the coyotes found? I hope that you'll all be okay.
We are all too familiar with them here, as well. We hear them nearly nightly, and have frequently seen them on our property - including 2 right off the corner of our deck, and one on the walkway to our front door. I preay that the situation doesn't become like Los Angeles, where coyotes are a nuisance much like racoons in urban neighborhoods.


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## GoldenJoy (Jul 30, 2009)

Oh my word! How terrifying. Hope you and your dogs are recovering. Unfortunately, we have many city coyotes, too. One was seen wandering through a mall parking lot!!!! You'd think with all of these coyotes, we'd at least have a reduction in the deer population!!!!!! While the coyotes are more dangerous to our dogs, the deer around here seem to cause near-fatal or fatal accidents every week!!!!!!


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## Chelseanr (Oct 3, 2010)

Oh my god how terrible! I never thought Coyotes would attack (we're educated that they are timid and afraid of humans here) and theres a large pack of them near my house. Your poor dogs, its so great to hear everyone made it out alive though.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chelseanr said:


> Oh my god how terrible! I never thought Coyotes would attack (we're educated that they are timid and afraid of humans here) and theres a large pack of them near my house. Your poor dogs, its so great to hear everyone made it out alive though.


It is definitely _very _unusual. I would hope that wildlife authorities would capture the animals and test them for rabies, or other illness. Also to positively identify them - they may have been coyote/wolf crosses...

Sunday, BTW, was October 17. Today (Monday) is the 18th.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Glad you all made it through the ordeal with only minor injuries. The coyotes scare me as I have seen them in my town and often hear them at night farther from town. The ones I've seen have been relatively small in size maybe 50 to 60 pounds but they do have a very wild look to them.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

I'm glad you and your dogs escaped serious injury from the coyote attack. That sounds like a very large coyote relative to the ones we have in Oregon. I wonder if it was a coyote-dog cross.


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## Reindeer (Oct 19, 2010)

I have added to the original message in order to answer some of your questions.

Reindeer


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Hi Reindeer,
What park? My dog and I got chased by two very non-afraid coyotes in Humber Bay Park East in the spring. Terrifying to say the least.

I am glad you are all okay!
The city took my complaint very seriously, even though we were not assaulted. 

Wow, so frightening!

Kim


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Reindeer said:


> I have added to the original message in order to answer some of your questions.
> 
> Reindeer


Can you let us know what park? I can't believe the city just blew you off! What if it were a small child??


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Reindeer said:


> Why no more injuries to the dogs I do not know.


thank goodness for that 
wow!


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## lucysmum (Sep 2, 2010)

WoW!! you and your dogs must have been terrified. I am very glad that neither of your dogs or you were seriously hurt.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

what a terrifying experience for you and the boys. You should get rabies shot asap. Thank God no major injuries.


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## Reindeer (Oct 19, 2010)

*New breed of coyote*

N.B. coyotes may be wolf hybrid 


Copyright © 2008 Wildlife Technologies
Wildlife genetics specialist at center of debate over species' origins
By PHILIP LEE -- N.B. Telegraph Journal

Is wolf blood running thick through the forests of New Brunswick?

A New Brunswick wildlife genetics specialist thinks that is indeed the case and he has drawn this province's population of coyotes, which are larger and more wolf-like than their diminutive western cousins, into the heart of a raging scientific debate over the evolutionary origin of Canadian wolves.

The debate has revolved around a population of about 200 wolves in Algonquin Provincial Park, north of Toronto. For many years, the Algonquin wolf was considered to be a mutt, a hybrid of the grey wolf (Canis lupus) and coyote (Canis latrans).

However, recent genetic testing on Algonquin wolves has led scientists to suggest that the Algonquin wolves are in fact surviving members of the eastern Canadian wolf species (Canis lycaon), a cousin of the red wolf, which is on the endangered species list in the United States.

Paul Wilson, a 31-year-old New Brunswick man who runs the Wildlife and Forensic DNA Laboratory at Trent University, has become a central figure in this debate.

The evolutionary model that Mr. Wilson's laboratory has proposed suggests that the New Brunswick coyote, which began appearing here in large numbers in the 1970s, is not a pure coyote at all, but in fact a hybrid of the eastern Canadian wolf and western coyote.

When the animals first arrived in New Brunswick, there was a great deal of speculation about what kind of dog-like creatures they were because they were so much larger than western coyotes. One of the most popular theories of the day was that they were hybrids of coyotes and domestic dogs.

"Our genetic data suggests that they are hybrid coyote-wolves," Mr. Wilson said. "So the eastern coyote, by definition, according to our genetic data, has wolf genetic material moved into it."

Algonquin wolves grow to be 60 to 90 pounds and have a unique salt-and-pepper colouring with red markings behind the ears. New Brunswick coyotes average between 30 and 80 pounds, and some have shown distinctive red markings. New Brunswick coyotes can live on a diet that is 80 per cent deer, while its western cousins, which grow to be about 15 to 30 pounds, eat only small mammals.

"The New Brunswick coyote is actually filling a fairly functional role as a top-end predator, similar to a pure eastern wolf," Mr. Wilson said.

Mr. Wilson's wolf research began with a request for some simple genetics testing from Dr. John Théberge, a University of Waterloo ecology professor, who with his wife Mary has been studying Algonquin wolves for more than a decade. They were convinced the Algonquin animal was a grey wolf-and-coyote hybrid.

"The genetic evidence started to point to the fact that that Algonquin animal was a very different wolf and was very closely related to the red wolf," Mr. Wilson said. "So we put forth a model that suggests this wolf actually evolved differently from the big grey wolf that you might see in the northern reaches of Canada."

His model proposes that one to two million years ago there was a common wolf ancestor in North America. Some of these wolves travelled to Europe over the land bridge and evolved there into the grey wolf. Others remained in North America and evolved into the red wolf or eastern Canadian wolf, which about 300,000 years ago spawned the coyote, which moved west. Also, about 300,000 years ago, the grey wolf returned to North America over the ice.

"Our wolf is more closely related to the coyote than it would be to the grey wolf, which would be one or two million years distinct from it," Mr. Wilson said.

Mr. Wilson is now collecting several crucial historical samples to test his theory.

Last week, he obtained a cutting from a 1949 coyote hide in the New Brunswick Museum's collection. This animal predates the arrival of coyotes in New Brunswick by at least a couple of decades and may be a remnant eastern Canadian wolf or one of the first arrivals of coyote-and-wolf hybrids. Wolves were extirpated from New Brunswick in the 1800s.

Mr. Wilson has also collected a sample of a wolf-like animal from Maine killed in the 1860s that is now in the Harvard University collection. He has obtained another sample from the 1890s in New York, which would have predated the arrival of coyotes there.

Mr. Wilson has found coyote-like genetic material in the Algonquin wolves that is not found in pure coyotes. The DNA strongly suggests these animals shared a common ancestor about 300,000 years ago. Now he wants to confirm these genetic characteristics in samples that predate the arrival of coyotes.

If he can find the coyote-like genetic markers in these historical samples, this will confirm that there was a wolf that evolved in North America that is closely related to coyotes. Because these samples predate the arrival of coyotes, he will know that this genetic material is present because of a common evolution, not as a result of interbreeding.

"Looking at these historical samples is a direct test of whether this model is accurate," Mr. Wilson said.

He is also attempting to obtain DNA markers from Manitoba wolf teeth that date back 5,000 years. The western border for the eastern wolf may have extended into Manitoba and this ancient DNA, if it is not degraded, could provide a crucial piece of the puzzle.

His lab has collected a data bank of about 4,000 wolves and coyotes, including a couple of hundred samples from New Brunswick.

The wolf genetics work is an interesting academic exercise, but it is also important for the protection of these animals. If it is proven that the Algonquin wolf is a species distinct from the grey wolf, it needs to be protected.

Mr. Wilson believes eastern Canadian wolves survive better in a human disturbed ecosystem than do grey wolves. If these eastern wolves encounter human disturbance, they are less likely to disappear and instead begin to interbreed with coyotes.

"Once you get that coyote-and-wolf hybrid, it is a very adaptable animal," Mr. Wilson said. "That's why it's doing so well here in New Brunswick."

The Laurentide wolves, which live two hours north of Quebec and are geographically isolated, represent one of the few remaining eastern timber wolf populations that have not hybridized with coyotes.

Trent lab tracking wildlife through DNA

A number of Trent undergraduate and graduate students have recently undertaken research using DNA profiles of a range of species in these laboratories. This research has led to the identification of a new species of wolf in Canada. Genetic studies on the wolves located in Algonquin Provincial Park have shown a close affinity to the red wolf of the US and not the gray wolf as it was originally assumed. It has now been proposed that this eastern Canadian wolf be given the separate species designation of Canis lycaon. The eastern coyotes or "Tweed wolves" found in the region have been shown to be hybrids between the western coyotes that reached the area earlier last century and the eastern Canadian wolf.

"This call is truly wild"
Authored by Dennis Aprill. Published by the Press-Republican, Plattsburgh, N.Y.

At 2 a. m. on Wednesday, Aug. 15, it started as a burst of high-pitched yelps, yaps and screeching intermixed with barks and growls and, on the rare occasion, a sustained howl. It all sounded like something being tortured just outside my bedroom window.

I awoke immediately, the screened window letting in the noisy chaos that actually was taking place in a nearby clearing. I knew, from past experience, the sounds were from coyotes, a routine that happens every August.

Coyotes, like red and gray wolves, bear their young in the spring, and, by late summer, these youngsters are old enough to travel with the family unit. In the case of coyotes, the unit howls seemingly for bonding, whereas wolves do so to communicate with their young. While some grown wolves hunt, the younger ones are left near an open area like a field or bog so they call back and forth with the adults.

A week earlier, 75 miles to the north, a group of college students and I heard another variation of howling in the Papineau-Labelle Wildlife Reserve in southern Quebec. Those howls were more sustained, but at times as high-pitched as the coyotes I heard a week later. These were the howls of red wolves, a species extirpated from the southern United States, but fairly common in southern Ontario and Quebec. Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin wolves, once thought of as gray wolves, have been genetically linked to red wolves.

Red wolves are smaller than grays, and their northern range follows the northern extent of white-tailed deer.

The best description of the howls we heard in Papineau-LaBelle come from naturalist writer Edward Hoagland in his book "Red Wolves and Black Bears." Hoagland, a Vermont resident, writes: "Red wolves howl in a higher, less emotive pitch than gray wolves and don’t blend with each other quite as stylishly, though they do employ more nuances and personality than a coyote family’s gabble." Hoagland, who researched some of the last known red wolves in the southern United States, also compared their calls to those of coyotes. He writes, "A coyote’s howl sounds hysterical, amateurish by comparison, chopped and frantic, almost like barnyard cackling." But the coyotes Hoagland was describing in his 1972 book were the small, western variety. Since then, geneticists have found that eastern coyotes have varying degrees of red-wolf genes, thus accounting for their increased size and, at times, almost wolflike traits of killing deer and beaver and traveling in larger packs than western coyotes. Some of these wolf-coyote mixtures, the result of extensive interbreeding in southeastern Canada, are hard to classify.

"So, what should a hybrid sound like?" Bob Chambers asked me once. Chambers, professor emeritus at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry and an eastern-coyote expert, said, "In all my years of tracking and studying eastern coyotes in the Newcomb area, there were a couple of times when I wasn’t sure exactly what I was hearing — a coyote, , a wolf or a hybrid." Ray Masters, a wildlife technician at SUNY ESF, Newcomb, who has worked extensively with Chambers in the past, joined me on a southern Quebec wolf calling trip in 2000, and we luckily got to hear a couple of packs howl.

The next morning, Masters joined the other participants on the porch of the chalet where we had spent the night and announced, "I’ve heard that same howling before — near Newcomb." Masters is not one to exaggerate, so that leads to the question: What is actually out there in northern New York? Judging from the latest research done at the University of Trent in Ontario by geneticists Drs. Bradley White and Paul Wilson, the clear differences once thought to separate red and gray wolves and eastern coyotes don’t exist anymore in a portion of southern Canada and the northeastern United States.

In fact, though there are still core areas that are predominately red wolf (called eastern Canadian wolf by the researchers), in peripheral areas there is extensive interbreeding with coyotes going on in southern Ontario and Quebec, and we in northern New York may be getting some of the second or third generation offspring of those unions, so maybe some of the howls I heard in early August weren’t pure coyotes exercising their vocal cords, but members of a wild canid species that is still evolving.





Reindeer said:


> *My two Golden's attacked by COYOTES*
> 
> On Sunday October 17th, 2010 my two Golden Retriever's were attacked by a large male Coyote and it's mate.
> 
> ...


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## Abby (Aug 17, 2010)

Wow, that's absolutely horrendous. What an awful situation to be in.
When I was two, my mom and dad had to fight off a coyote in a city park, apparently he fled pretty quickly, but I wanted to pet it 
I have to say, I don't agree with "getting rid" of the coyotes. Sure, it is quite strange that they would be so persistent in attacking and be so far in a big city, but maybe they were hungry and had to go to desperate measures to find food. This will probably sound crazy to some people, but I believe, we humans trespassed on nature's ground in the first place. With our buildings and skyscrapers, we have to right to get rid of a couple of coyotes who were just looking for a meal. Of course, I would defend my golden in such a situation, but even still, it doesn't require the abolition of all coyotes and wildlife.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm glad you are all okay. How scary. I live in the middle of the city and see coyotes almost weekly on my early morning walks. Most scamper away when they see us. If you came in contact with any body fluids from the coyotes I'd definitely begin the rabies innoculations. My husband rescued a feral cat from one of our Golden's mouth (the cat was in a bush and the dog grabbed it) and was bitten and scratched in the process of saving it. We sought medical treatment for the injuries and by law the medical facility reported the incident to the County Health Dept. The Health Dept strongly encouraged him to get the rabies and gamma globulin injections. The hardest part was finding a medical professional to oversee them and we ended up using a local city hospital emergency room for the carefully scheduled injections. BTW, DH tells me they aren't as painful as many assume. 

Also the coyotes in our area carry a lot of mange and other diseases so you might want to monitor your goldens carefully.


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## Zoeys mom (Apr 26, 2008)

Glad you are all ok.


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## OrdinaryEllen (Jun 20, 2010)

*Wow, scary*

Coyotes can be nearby and it seems we seldom see them unless they choose to be seen.

A family member lived in the southwestern U.S. and during that time, dealt with coyotes on an almost daily basis due to the fact that a drystream bed ran behind their home and coyotes used it as a pathway. 

They had to keep their pets inside from dusk until after dawn. They lived in a subdivision that was very developed and even a little crowded depending upon how you view those things, and still the coyotes were a constant threat to every cat and small dog. The larger dogs were in danger too because a pack of coyotes circling were also fairly common. Around the break of dawn, you could hear them howling. 

Glad you're okay and maybe animal control can find a solution. Continuuing to attack when a human is involved may mean these coyotes have crossed a line that presents true danger to people but especially a small child who may be playing in the park.


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Sorry to hear of your very scary day. I pray that you and your dogs are fine and will have no side effects from all of this. I see fox near where I live on occasion but not right in my city. I've heard the coyotes when I vacation at my sisters cottage in Alpena but haven't come across any on our walks. I'll be sure to be prepared, just in case....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I've seen coyotes around.... they are great for taking out the nuisance Canadian geese in the area. But they are shy of people and will take off like a shot if they catch a glimpse of you. That's all well and good. 

If they are crossing that line and attacking your pets while you are right there, then it is the responsibility of the government to take those coyotes someplace else if they don't actually kill them. I'd be outraged if nothing was being done.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

How scary! Coyotes are becoming more of a problem here in Nova Scotia as well, with one hiker killed this year. As an animal lover, I do agree with Chopin. We have taken their homes for our own purposes and left them scavaging the citiesfor food. However, there has to be a balance where humans as well as animals are safe in their own environment. A huge problem!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm really glad you're all okay. Again, can you please tell your fellow Torontonians what park this was in? What park of the city?


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## ELI&BAILEY'S MOM (Dec 18, 2008)

I am so glad you and your dogs are okay. How scary! We live in St. Catharines and have the twelve mile creek across the street. We hear the coyotes all the time. It scares the heck out of me. We definately don't let anyone outside unattended, even in a fenced in back yard.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I find it horrendous that the city officials didn't find the coyotes, test them for diseases and release them in the wild, not a city park!

My daughter lived previously in a new subdivision is SE Denver. They heard and saw coyotes frequently due to the fact that the city was moving into their environment.
I feel bad for you and your dogs, I also feel bad for coyotes who are losing their territory-food sources.

I know many people who carry pepper spray, mace and a weapon of some kind (like a golf club) when they walk.


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## Golden123 (Dec 6, 2009)

Thank God your dogs didn't get killed. I can't even imagine going through that. We have lots of coyotes around here. Recently I read several articles saying that researchers have found out that the Eastern Coyotes are larger than their cousins the Western Coyotes because over the years they have bred with the Wolf.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

How frightening! Thank God you and your dogs are ok but I would definitely take them to the vet and then go to the doctor if I were you. Best to take precautions.

I have heard that Coyotes are shy and nocturnal so this behavior seems out of the norm. I can't believe the officials shrugged it off - protected or not they need to make sure these are truly coyotes and that they are not ill. It is just irresponsible to do nothing. 

Give your pups a hug for me.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Last year I saw a coyote standing in our field. At first I thought it was a wolf, it was so large. I live in a semi rural area and hear them frequently at night. It's one of the reasons I don't allow Hank out in the invisible fence area after dark. 

My brother shot a rabid coyote or fox recently. It was so ill and shaggy he couldn't tell which animal it was.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Sweet Girl said:


> I'm really glad you're all okay. Again, can you please tell your fellow Torontonians what park this was in? What park of the city?


^^^This. How terrifying. Please let us know which park so that we can be on the look out.


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Bumping up.

Would also like to hear which park this was in. Glad to hear that your goldens and yourself aren't seriously injured!


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## eirepup (Apr 14, 2010)

Wow how scary! Glad you all came out with no more than scratches.


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## Luci (May 26, 2009)

How scary! And I can't believe the city just brushed you off like that. Wow!

Last winter my parents GSP was attacked by a coyote. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ard/72997-watch-your-pups-coyote-country.html


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Thanks for this reminder. I hear coyotes quite often where I live. Everybody ( my husband included ) tells me they won't bother my goldens. I am a nervous wreck about this, and will take my dogs out on leash in the dark.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Sounds like a couple of the newest "must have " items for a dog walk will be pepper spray and a stun gun.


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## newgolden (Jul 2, 2010)

Oh my...that is just awful!!!

Coyotes here (atlantic canada) are coyote/wolf hybrids and are much larger and more agressive than coyotes further west. We've had several attacks on animals and two on humans (one young woman died). Coyotes are becoming a fact of life here and we hear them every night. They are in yards, streets and school grounds (one had to be shot recently in a schoolyard). The fact is that coyotes have lost their fear of human beings. In NS, we have recently implemented a coyote cull which many people don't agree with as they say coyotes will reproduce to make up for the lost population. Most people aren't as concerned with the numbers of coyotes as they are with trying to reinstill their timidity around humans and in human environments. It's is a scary situation when you are worried about letting your children and pets in the yard for fear of a coyote (an animal that, as someone else said, we are taught are more afraid of us than we are of them...ah, not so much)!!

My babysitter let my son out into her backyard to play for a bit one morning in the spring and her dog (Shepard mix) started losing it out so she ran around to see what was going on. A very big coyote was standing on his hind legs just off her yard. Her dog seemed to be keeping him at bay and her sister who was visiting ran toward the dog and the coyote to create a diversion so my sitter could get my son safely back into the house. Extremely scary!!

We have put up with the "non-agression" line by the dept. of natural resources long enough. Since coyotes are approaching and now attacking people and animals when they are posing no threat, most people just simply aren't buying it anymore.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

You could of used Triton and Logan. They went after couple Coyotes now. Combined weight of 250lbs.


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## LauraBella (Feb 9, 2010)

WOW! Scary! Glad everyone is okay. Please be safe.


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## PrincessDi (Jun 8, 2009)

We used to live in Anaheim, CA in a very urban area. The coyotes would pack and jump 6 foot tall fences. They almost killed a Rotwiller that lived a few houses down from us, that was in his own fenced in yard. They would keep trying to jump the fence until they made it over. They successfully killed several smaller breeds. Frequently, they would stroll down the street in the day time. They were most dangerous when they ran in packs. These were not large coyotes, and probably only weighed around 45-55 lbs. They are wild scavengers and are still very dangerous. We rarely see them where we moved to in Washington state. Even so, we would never leave our kids outside unattended, even in the daytime. Goldens are very mild mannered. Mine would never be able to defend themselves. Be very cautious, regardless of how large they are!


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## Kwk (Nov 1, 2009)

I would also really like to hear which park this happened at. I haven't come across one myself but it is probably just a matter of time as we live near and frequent the Don Valley park system. 

Unfortunately coyotes are fairly common in Toronto's parks. If you are not happy with the city's response I would suggest contacting the media. There have been a few high profile coyote encounters in the last couple of years and the city has been pressured into taking action if they feel the coyotes are too comfortable around people. 

Coyote attacks prompt city to take action - thestar.com

Woman recounts attack by coyotes in Scarborough Bluffs - Posted Toronto


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## mm03gn (Sep 24, 2008)

I think you should contact some news outlets! If the authorities aren't going to take your complaint and genuine concerns seriously, I'm sure the public would like to hear about the problem...that might help get proper procedures in place for when this happens again. With the way things are going regarding coyotes in the area, I have no doubts it will keep happening.

I also would like to know which park you were at...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I am harboring doubts as to the legitimacy of this story.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I am harboring doubts as to the legitimacy of this story.


There are definitely coyotes in Toronto - and there have been some that have roamed very heavy populated areas (see the Star article linked to above - The Beach is a HEAVILY populated, urban neighbourhood of Toronto) and gone after dogs, cats, etc. So I do believe they are in some of the the city parks.

BUT, that said, I have been wondering why the OP seems to not want to tell us what park, despite several of us in Toronto asking, and his returning and adding other information. The city's "response" is also very surprising.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sweet Girl said:


> There are definitely coyotes in Toronto - and there have been some that have roamed very heavy populated areas (see the Star article linked to above - The Beach is a HEAVILY populated, urban neighbourhood of Toronto) and gone after dogs, cats, etc. So I do believe they are in some of the the city parks.
> 
> BUT, that said, I have been wondering why the OP seems to not want to tell us what park, despite several of us in Toronto asking, and his returning and adding other information. The city's "response" is also very surprising.


Yes, there are coyotes in Toronto. Animal Control verified this - they are very aware of the concerns. They also said that there was no record of a complaint such as the one by the op and assured that they would _not_ have taken such a serious attack lightly, particularly since there allegedly were injuries to a human. They also stated that the coyotes in Toronto are much smaller than suggested. 

Yes, from first having had the date wrong, to going in and changing the post based on what others had posted and not stating where the alleged attack occurred, there was little to substantiate that this is legit. Animal Control's response was enough for me.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

The supervisor at Toronto Animal Control also offerred this advice:

"please talk about leashing and closely supervising pets while 
in ravines or known coyote habitat. Avoid walking dogs,even on leash, in coyote habitat during coyote mating season (in Toronto, Jan - Feb). Please also encourage dog owners to actively scare away any coyote that is seen. You are probably aware of how intelligent coyotes are - they learn that when they come close to people and nothing bad happens, that people aren't scary. We need to ensure that coyotes retain their natural fear of humans. Most importantly, never inadvertently or deliberately feed coyotes."


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I think it was a reindeer game.


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

The original post may have been fake, but the topic is legitimate. We are encroaching on nature - and it is fighting back. I know of three stories in the US of coyotes attacking.

One is a few years ago in Washington State. A friends' cocker spaniel disappeared from their yard in the middle of the day. About a week alter her collar was found all chewed up. There was no doubt the bite marks were from coyotes and the dog had been a snack.

The second was about 10 years ago - in Connecticut. The barn where I kept my horse at the time had a domestic turkey who lived on the premises. Late one morning a coyote came and simply took him away. There was nothing anyone could do but shout and watch it happen. It was very sad.

Finally this past summer - my friends in Ohio keep 3 horses on their property right outside Columbus. They leave the horses out at night in the heat of the summer. A coyote attacked their horses one night. One of their horses is the alpha male and defended the others - he was pretty badly cut up and hurt. Thankfully he'll recover.

Clearly the last story is the most disturbing. Who has ever heard of a coyote attacking a horse?! That is just scary. Had it been my horse (or dog, cat or kid for that matter) , i'd be sitting there with a shot gun - and I've never shot anything with fur in my life!

I won't even get started on the wolf population that's been reintroduced in the west and the devastation they've caused to the local wild life.

OMG so much to worry about! All I can say is be ever vigilant!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lennap said:


> The original post may have been fake, but the topic is legitimate. We are encroaching on nature - and it is fighting back. I know of three stories in the US of coyotes attacking.
> 
> One is a few years ago in Washington State. A friends' cocker spaniel disappeared from their yard in the middle of the day. About a week alter her collar was found all chewed up. There was no doubt the bite marks were from coyotes and the dog had been a snack.
> 
> ...


Of course the topic is legitimate - we've been living with coyotes on our property for years. Understanding their behavior and co-existing appropriately is important. As is being able to separate myths and exaggerated stories from fact. If there were in fact such large animals in Toronto parks attacking dogs and humans, it would be very important to know where it occurred, and to allow the appropriate entities to deal with it accordingly.
Very large animals, btw, are often wolf/coyote, dog/coyote, or dog/wolf crosses. I would suspect that a wolf cross of some sort would be the culprit in an attack on a horse. It would be very unusual for a coyote to take on something that large, unless it was a debilitated animal.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

I do know we have coyotes in Toronto but I was surprised by the OP saying that Toronto Animals Services did not take their report seriously. I used to volunteer at TAS South and they are a great bunch of people who would indeed take this seriously.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> I do know we have coyotes in Toronto but I was surprised by the OP saying that Toronto Animals Services did not take their report seriously. I used to volunteer at TAS South and they are a great bunch of people who would indeed take this seriously.


My interaction with the AC supervisor was positive. I felt that she was very conscientious, and was most concerned about making sure that dog owners practice sound safety measures when utilizing Toronto parks.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Toronto Animals Services has a page about coyotes in Toronto and they encourage people to call them if you spot them. Animal Services: Wildlife in the city: Coyotes


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> My interaction with the AC supervisor was positive. I felt that she was very conscientious, and was most concerned about making sure that dog owners practice sound safety measures when utilizing Toronto parks.


 
I can tell you based on my own experience that Toronto Animal control takes these complaints very seriously. In the spring, Katie and I were chased by two coyotes .... and when I called TO Animal Services they had me on the phone for the better part of an hour.

They also gave me tips, as to how to prevent such an instance from occuring. That lady I spoke with, said that umbrellas are a great deterrent. Apparantely if you open and close an umbrella they get very freaked out. 

The coyotes that chased us, were not afraid at all. I did all the standard things that one reads about on websites. I made myself look very tall, I waved a stick around, I yelled at them, I threw rocks - but they still kept coming. I broke the cardinal rule and ran - but I was so frightened. 

My guess is that Katie and I had stumbled upon them when they had a fresh kill. We walk that way quite often, so I know there is no den there. 

This occured at 3PM in the afternoon. There were 2 coyotes - both were scrawny, but one was bigger than the other. One was very obviously a coyote - the other must have been a coyote dog cross based on colour and markings. Neither were even close to 70lbs.

This occured at Humber Bay Park East on the peninsula. We see coyotes here quite frequently, but they often pay no attention to us. That is why, when Katie and I were chased I called Animal Services. And let me assure everyone in the Toronto area, just as PG has done - they took the complaint seriously. There is not much they can do, unless someone is attacked or they become a real menace. But they do take it seriously.

I too began to question to veracity of the OP's claim. It all seemed too sensationalized for two dogs to be attacked for 20+ minutes and to come out unscathed. I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt, but when he kept refusing to answer what park he was in, despite multiple requests, I called it in my mind as BS. Besides, there is no way the media would not have caught wind of such a story. I mean one of his employees that he called mid-attack could have verified his claim!

Kim


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> It is definitely _very _unusual. I would hope that wildlife authorities would capture the animals and test them for rabies, or other illness. Also to positively identify them - they may have been coyote/wolf crosses...
> 
> Sunday, BTW, was October 17. Today (Monday) is the 18th.


This story frustrates me to no end due to the fact that the Ministry of Natural Resources will do NOTHING. Coyotes in this area (Sault Ste. Marie -- Northern Ontario) kill cats and small dogs routinely. My female Mirabelle is only 50 pounds which is larger than most standard coyotes in this area. HOWEVER, I have seen a coyote that would have been in the 55-60 pound range near my yard. They are gigantic looking due to their lankier bodies and extremely long legs (an Akbash build for you dog lovers). 

Coyotes are the least of my worries for my babies though. The blackbears in my area are beyond ridiculous. The cancellation of the spring bear hunt has created a boom in bear population that is forcing them into the city to forage. They become acclimated to people so that bear repellent is a necessity when I walk my dogs and its for their (and my) protection. 

My recommendation for anyone bringing their animals on a hike or in a wooded area is to carry a weapon capable of repelling an attacking wild animal.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Yes, there are coyotes in Toronto. Animal Control verified this - they are very aware of the concerns. They also said that there was no record of a complaint such as the one by the op and assured that they would _not_ have taken such a serious attack lightly, particularly since there allegedly were injuries to a human. They also stated that the coyotes in Toronto are much smaller than suggested.
> 
> Yes, from first having had the date wrong, to going in and changing the post based on what others had posted and not stating where the alleged attack occurred, there was little to substantiate that this is legit. Animal Control's response was enough for me.


You called Toronto Animal Control about the original post? *THAT* is amazing. Good for you! 

We have coyotes around here (and wolves close to the AB/BC border) and I've seen them more times around the barn(s) than not. I had one follow me and Ranger one time and i was pretty freaked out as the thing was about 2 ft from Ranger's tail. We made it safe to the barn and the coyote kept going and got within 10 ft of a horse...horse didn't even raise it's head.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

"The male coyote was much larger then my four year old 70lb. Golden Retriever."
__________________

This is not a coyote then. The largest coyote on record I think is 75 pounds in weight. They may appear larger due to longer legs but that is easily noticed as the animal is tall but would appear waif thin. A coywolf is a possibility (but a very small one) in my area and I would assume yours as well -- Gray Wolves are actually predatory toward coyotes and in area's in which they've taken up residence drastically reduce coyote population.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ranger said:


> You called Toronto Animal Control about the original post? *THAT* is amazing. Good for you!
> 
> We have coyotes around here (and wolves close to the AB/BC border) and I've seen them more times around the barn(s) than not. I had one follow me and Ranger one time and i was pretty freaked out as the thing was about 2 ft from Ranger's tail. We made it safe to the barn and the coyote kept going and got within 10 ft of a horse...horse didn't even raise it's head.


I did not call them. I emailed them. There were so many Canadians in the Toronto area asking for the location, and not getting a reply, and who were obviously nervous/upset at the prospect of finding themselves in the same position, that I DID check to verify the location while at the same time checking the legitimacy of the story (which was riddled with holes...)

I've learned a lot about coyotes over the years, as we have them on our own property and I was most concerned about my own dogs, as well as my sons and their lambs when they were younger and participating in 4H. So much of the op just didn't mesh with what I have learned.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Braccarius said:


> "The male coyote was much larger then my four year old 70lb. Golden Retriever."
> __________________
> 
> This is not a coyote then. The largest coyote on record I think is 75 pounds in weight. They may appear larger due to longer legs but that is easily noticed as the animal is tall but would appear waif thin. A coywolf is a possibility (but a very small one) in my area and I would assume yours as well -- Gray Wolves are actually predatory toward coyotes and in area's in which they've taken up residence drastically reduce coyote population.


Exactly. And Animal Control said basically the same thing.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Still, I think that's great. I think the coyotes here are smaller than out East, but the ones here are only about 50 lbs, I'd say. About the size of a border collie from the ones I've seen. They would definitely NOT go after a horse - even the miniature horse on the property is left out at night and he's never had a scratch on him.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ranger said:


> Still, I think that's great. I think the coyotes here are smaller than out East, but the ones here are only about 50 lbs, I'd say. About the size of a border collie from the ones I've seen. They would definitely NOT go after a horse - even the miniature horse on the property is left out at night and he's never had a scratch on him.


 
Coyotes are _very _intelligent, and would learn very quickly that even a small horse or pony would not be easy prey - they fight back hard. Lambs, on the other hand, are not overyl bright, and will pretty much give up without much fight. Around here, while coyotes were identified as having injured or killed a few, the bigger problem has been loose dogs.  And even 50 pounds would be a "good sized" coyote - an average, here in Northern Michigan (the lower peninsula...)we are seeing 40 pounds as the largest.

COYOTE (_Canis latrans_) 

















*Height:* 18" maximum *Length:* 3 feet *Weight:* 25 to 45 pounds​


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

PG, thanks for checking into this. I also don't think public authorities will ignore a coyote attack involving humans.

We had an incident in a northern suburb about a year ago when a jogger was attacked and injured by a "coyote" or "coyote hybrid". The authorities investigated and it turned out to be a loose dog. There was a lot of publicity when the attack was reported, but the final findings were buried in the news. Unfortunately, the entire incident added to public fear by heightening false perceptions. 

I actually fear loose aggressive dogs more than wildlife.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> PG, thanks for checking into this. I also don't think public authorities will ignore a coyote attack involving humans.
> 
> We had an incident in a northern suburb about a year ago when a jogger was attacked and injured by a "coyote" or "coyote hybrid". The authorities investigated and it turned out to be a loose dog. There was a lot of publicity when the attack was reported, but the final findings were buried in the news. Unfortunately, the entire incident added to public fear by heightening false perceptions.
> 
> I actually fear loose aggressive dogs more than wildlife.


I so agree... most wild animals fear us far more than we fear them, and will avoid eno****ers. Dogs, on the other hand, being used to humans, have little fear, and an aggressive dog, or worse yet, several aggressive dogs in a pack situation, present far more risk.


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## DianaM (Feb 18, 2010)

There was a story last year about Jessica Simpson's maltese/poodle mix that was taken away and killed by a coyote. 

There are signs in our neighborhood trails that say coyotes have been spotted and to keep your dog on a leash. I keep Gracie on a leash but I never worried about it too much because I was always told that they are scared of humans. Now that I've seen this thread, I'm more nervous. Some mornings I take Gracie out around 6am and we don't have street lights in our sub (police have said our sub is the darkest in the city). It is VERY dark out there and now I get really nervous standing in our yard with no idea what's around me. A flashlight only does so much. Gracie's potty spot might be moving closer to our house now where the porch light shines.


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## DianaM (Feb 18, 2010)

Oh and here's a question... do you think coyotes would be attracted to a dog in heat?


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

How scary that must have been and I am so glad that you and your dogs are ok.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Metro Detroit coyote attacks get more brazen | detnews.com | The Detroit News

Per the above, I'd definitely keep a leash on your goldens and carry a big stick if you walk in an area where there are coyotes around. 

The ones I've seen are small - I really doubt more than 40-50 lbs. And they aren't just around at nighttime. We had a female who was daily hunting the geese (the baby geese mainly) by the river here by my work. And a friend of mine was walking her husky in the woods and encountered one on the trail.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

DianaM said:


> Oh and here's a question... do you think coyotes would be attracted to a dog in heat?


Most assuredly! It was a joke around our house that the coyotes let us know before even our own dogs that our girls were in season! In fact, the first time we heard the coyotes and thus knew they were here, we discovered in the morning that we had two girls in season.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> Metro Detroit coyote attacks get more brazen | detnews.com | The Detroit News
> 
> Per the above, I'd definitely keep a leash on your goldens and carry a big stick if you walk in an area where there are coyotes around.
> 
> The ones I've seen are small - I really doubt more than 40-50 lbs. And they aren't just around at nighttime. We had a female who was daily hunting the geese (the baby geese mainly) by the river here by my work. And a friend of mine was walking her husky in the woods and encountered one on the trail.


One morning The Dogfather had _just _left for work, and our phone rang within seconds - it was him calling to tell me not to let Dave out (our old Pointer, at the time 13 yrs old) because a coyote was standing on the sidewalk leading to our front door - only about 5 feet from our house! We also saw two standing right at the corner of our deck - putting them about 12 feet or so from the doors into the living room.


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## DianaM (Feb 18, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Most assuredly! It was a joke around our house that the coyotes let us know before even our own dogs that our girls were in season! In fact, the first time we heard the coyotes and thus knew they were here, we discovered in the morning that we had two girls in season.


 I might have to bring a patch of grass inside when she goes into heat cuz I'm not letting her outside!! I wasn't worried about neighborhood dogs but this is just scary.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

DianaM said:


> I might have to bring a patch of grass inside when she goes into heat cuz I'm not letting her outside!! I wasn't worried about neighborhood dogs but this is just scary.


I actually WOULD be more worried about the neighborhood dogs. As long as you are with her, and she is on a leash, you should have no fear. as many years as we have been hearing, and seeing them, they have never caused any real problem for us. And when they see us, they disappear. they've never tried to get into the kennel, or the dog yard, even when girls are in season.


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## DianaM (Feb 18, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I actually WOULD be more worried about the neighborhood dogs. As long as you are with her, and she is on a leash, you should have no fear. as many years as we have been hearing, and seeing them, they have never caused any real problem for us. And when they see us, they disappear. they've never tried to get into the kennel, or the dog yard, even when girls are in season.


I said that because there aren't many male dogs in our neighborhood that I have seen. Most are females around us. Plus I've never seen a dog roaming around alone. Of course we will be careful though


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

DianaM said:


> I might have to bring a patch of grass inside when she goes into heat cuz I'm not letting her outside!! I wasn't worried about neighborhood dogs but this is just scary.



Back where I grew up we'd see all kinds of wildlife on a daily basis... one of them being coyotes almost nightly. I'd be walking my dog at night and there'd be one across the street from us, just walking along with us kind of watching. They were always fairly little... smaller than my Aussie, so maybe 40ish lbs. If we turned in a direction near the coyote, he would run away. I think he was more curious about us than anything else. I guess my point is, in general they fear us and would be hard pressed to challenge a human walking a dog, especially if they are alone.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

DianaM said:


> I said that because there aren't many male dogs in our neighborhood that I have seen. Most are females around us. Plus I've never seen a dog roaming around alone. Of course we will be careful though


Just wait until you have a female in heat. You'll realize how many male dogs there actually ARE in your neighborhood. LOL


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I think some people on this thread are mistaking what a coyote is. Coyotes weigh on averge between 17 and 46 pounds. My female is a portly 55 - 60 pounds and my male is a robust 70-75... a coyote knows if it fights with an animal that is even remotely close to its size it will get injured and die. Hence, a coyote in ALMOST ALL circumstances willl forgo fighting with a Golden Retriever. To be honest, an average golden retriever with their bone structure, bite pressure and muscle formation would handily defeat the average coyote in a life or death batle. However, the fight would continue long after the coyote were dispatched due to disease.

The problem is that Wolves are the bigger cousin of the Coyote. They weigh in much heftier (120 pounds isn't unheard of), but I think 85ish is average. Would an 85 pound wolf that knows if it gets hurt it will die fight a 75 pound dog.... I'd doubt it very very very much. 

I am much less concerned about coyotes and wolves and far more concerned about other dogs.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I KNOW, they kill cats, many went missing in the area we use to live, also, we did hear with our own ears, what i call the killing scream, we heard what sounded, like a bunch of horse's running. then heard the screams.


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## mm03gn (Sep 24, 2008)

Braccarius said:


> I think some people on this thread are mistaking what a coyote is. Coyotes weigh on averge between 17 and 46 pounds. My female is a portly 55 - 60 pounds and my male is a robust 70-75... a coyote knows if it fights with an animal that is even remotely close to its size it will get injured and die. Hence, a coyote in ALMOST ALL circumstances willl forgo fighting with a Golden Retriever. To be honest, an average golden retriever with their bone structure, bite pressure and muscle formation would handily defeat the average coyote in a life or death batle. However, the fight would continue long after the coyote were dispatched due to disease.
> 
> The problem is that Wolves are the bigger cousin of the Coyote. They weigh in much heftier (120 pounds isn't unheard of), but I think 85ish is average. Would an 85 pound wolf that knows if it gets hurt it will die fight a 75 pound dog.... I'd doubt it very very very much.
> 
> I am much less concerned about coyotes and wolves and far more concerned about other dogs.


On the East coast of Canada, there has been speculation that the coyotes are actually wolf-coyote hybrids. They are saying that these hybrids are spreading West and hence why people are seeing "coyotes" that are much larger than standard... Coyote + wolf = new breed of predator - Technology & science - Science - DiscoveryNews.com - msnbc.com

A Toronto folk singer was killled by coyotes in New Brunswick earlier this year, so I do think that coyotes are getting bolder and all precautions should be made...they may not necessarily be the timid creatures they are known for being...


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

You must remember, they travel in groups, i have seen this.


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## Karen2 (Jan 5, 2009)

I was thinking wolf too!
our coyotes about tops about 45 pounds.
I have had a couple run ins with them but the stop look and run away, even in groups of 3 or more...Thank God!
How terrible for you.
Karen


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Several years ago, my husband, myself, and a real estate person, was walking off a peice of land, wooded area, came upon a coyote, the sales person, said stand still, do not move, he was about one foot from us, he looked at us, head up smelling, kept on walking, we left the area, because we thought there would be more, closest i have been to one.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

There are coyotes where I live. I have seen them twice, a solo animal and a group of three. All disappeared as soon as they saw me. I am not worried about them attacking my dogs, who are always leashed. I am much more worried about the aggressive, boxer-type dog I have seen at large several times. Today it actually followed my car down the road (Tia was in the car); it stood at the end of the driveway until I put the car away and closed the garage door.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

goldensrbest said:


> Several years ago, my husband, myself, and a real estate person, was walking off a peice of land, wooded area, came upon a coyote, the sales person, said stand still, do not move, he was about one foot from us, he looked at us, head up smelling, kept on walking, we left the area, because we thought there would be more, closest i have been to one.


People I know who hunt with dogs said a coyote will lure dog back to pack then go for the guts. 

C/P

The basic story line goes like this: The coyote pack locates a naive, tennis ball chasing, eats-from-a-bowl-with-his-name-on-it dog as a potential victim/meal. The pack hides in nearby cover while a decoy, either a female coyote in estrus or a frolicking playmate, approaches the pet dog and attempts to lure it back to the ambush site. If successful, the pack will kill the dog and share it for dinner


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Braccarius said:


> I think some people on this thread are mistaking what a coyote is. Coyotes weigh on averge between 17 and 46 pounds. My female is a portly 55 - 60 pounds and my male is a robust 70-75... a coyote knows if it fights with an animal that is even remotely close to its size it will get injured and die. Hence, a coyote in ALMOST ALL circumstances willl forgo fighting with a Golden Retriever. To be honest, an average golden retriever with their bone structure, bite pressure and muscle formation would handily defeat the average coyote in a life or death batle. However, the fight would continue long after the coyote were dispatched due to disease.
> 
> The problem is that Wolves are the bigger cousin of the Coyote. They weigh in much heftier (120 pounds isn't unheard of), but I think 85ish is average. Would an 85 pound wolf that knows if it gets hurt it will die fight a 75 pound dog.... I'd doubt it very very very much.
> 
> I am much less concerned about coyotes and wolves and far more concerned about other dogs.


 
Exactly. We do hear them killing rabbits, and they have pretty much cleaned out all the "barn cats" we had. But I am not too worried about them messing with my dogs. The hover _near _the kennel building on occasion, but have never even gotten into the dog yard to our knowledge.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

2Retrievers222 said:


> People I know who hunt with dogs said a coyote will lure dog back to pack then go for the guts.
> 
> C/P
> 
> The basic story line goes like this: The coyote pack locates a naive, tennis ball chasing, eats-from-a-bowl-with-his-name-on-it dog as a potential victim/meal. The pack hides in nearby cover while a decoy, either a female coyote in estrus or a frolicking playmate, approaches the pet dog and attempts to lure it back to the ambush site. If successful, the pack will kill the dog and share it for dinner


 
I believe this is a myth.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

I,ll ask the guy.

check this video out

http://www.guitarsolos.com/videos-coyote-vs-dog-%5BadB9i1f9hWw%5D.cfm

also newspaper 
http://www.sierrasun.com/article/20090606/NEWS/906069996


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## Cassie (Jan 27, 2010)

Growing up on the Nebraska prairie coyotes are a fact of life.
a. I have never heard or seen any coyote luring a dog back to the pack. I think this is a folk tale.
b. Coyotes do run in packs sometimes but it is much more common to see them alone or with one other coyote.
c.When I was younger coyote hunting was a huge sport and people hunted them with what they call coyote hounds. These dogs looke like a really muscular greyhound.
d.Coyotes can and will attack dogs if they get the chance. They are not particularly fond of dogs or there would be a lot more cross matings that you would see around here. Don't think I have ever seen one to tell the truth all though I have heard of them.
e. I definately would NOT let my dog out alone after dark in a non-fenced yard. Coyotes don't always kill just because they are hungry and they really do like to attack dogs.


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## AmbersDad (Dec 25, 2007)

I've had a number of run-ins with coyotes in packs here in PA(Pike county) while backpacking over the years. Almost everytime we backpacking into a remote area in pike county we have a pack of coyote yelp and holler from the distance, listening to them come across the valleys until finally around 2-4am they enter our camp and search for food. I've caught sight of them in packs of up to 5 at a time here. Usually they look to be about 30lbs on average and very ratty looking. On one trip we backpacked with a friends husky who slept outside our tent that night until about 1am when a LARGE pack of about 8 coyoates circled our tent and the dog and began harassing the husky. At that point we brought the dog inside the tent and had it sleep between us. The coyotes stayed around the site for about another 25 minutes still yelling and barking for the dog. I've NEVER heard a dog (the husky) so intent on protecting as this one was that night. We do have some runnign around my house in SE pa as well but those are usually only one or two at a time and not packed up. I truly believe that if we had not brought the husky inside that pack would have torn him up and now anytime I take My golden along in that area she is always within a few feet of me at night and obviously sleeps with me. Normally though all it takes is for one of us to yell and they run but it seemed when the dogs are around they are definately more focused and more intent then when they would otherwise be.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I have been hearing coyotes off in the distance this past summer, but now the past few nights, I can hear them very close behind my home (there is a field behind us, then the woods begin, and it sounds like they are now just beyond where the woods begin).
This story scares me.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

2Retrievers222 said:


> People I know who hunt with dogs said a coyote will lure dog back to pack then go for the guts.
> 
> C/P
> 
> The basic story line goes like this: The coyote pack locates a naive, tennis ball chasing, eats-from-a-bowl-with-his-name-on-it dog as a potential victim/meal. The pack hides in nearby cover while a decoy, either a female coyote in estrus or a frolicking playmate, approaches the pet dog and attempts to lure it back to the ambush site. If successful, the pack will kill the dog and share it for dinner


I agree with the others who said this is a myth...to be precise, I believe the idea became popularized after the Jack London novel "White Fang", in which a _wolf_ pack used its dominant female to lure sled dogs away from the camp and then the rest of the pack would kill the dog.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> I did not call them. I emailed them. There were so many Canadians in the Toronto area asking for the location, and not getting a reply, and who were obviously nervous/upset at the prospect of finding themselves in the same position, that I DID check to verify the location while at the same time checking the legitimacy of the story (which was riddled with holes...)


Wow - thanks. I hadn't realized that. (I actually thought you must live in this area, too - relative newbie here!). 

Toronto is a BIG city - but when you have a dog, you sort of think, sooner or later, I'll end up in whatever park that was!


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

We have lots of people/animal/coyote interactions here in Colorado. A friend's border collie was attacked on her horse farm property; there were 12 coyotes involved, but fortunately, her two young border collies raced back to the barn and got her and her barn manager's attention. Betty the BC lived through quick action, a good vet and 178 stitches. We routinely have coyotes going after dogs on several of our most popular hiking trails, and those dogs aren't always smaller than the coyotes. I have had to throw rocks and large sticks at several coyotes who have stalked my dogs in broad daylight with me right there beside them. I don't know if it's the close proximity we're all living in now, or the coyotes are so habituated to people in my area that they've become brazen. In any event, I don't take a coyote/dog confrontation lightly and wouldn't necessarily bet on the dog winning.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Braccarius said:


> I think some people on this thread are mistaking what a coyote is. Coyotes weigh on averge between 17 and 46 pounds. My female is a portly 55 - 60 pounds and my male is a robust 70-75... a coyote knows if it fights with an animal that is even remotely close to its size it will get injured and die. Hence, a coyote in ALMOST ALL circumstances willl forgo fighting with a Golden Retriever. To be honest, an average golden retriever with their bone structure, bite pressure and muscle formation would handily defeat the average coyote in a life or death batle. However, the fight would continue long after the coyote were dispatched due to disease.
> 
> The problem is that Wolves are the bigger cousin of the Coyote. They weigh in much heftier (120 pounds isn't unheard of), but I think 85ish is average. Would an 85 pound wolf that knows if it gets hurt it will die fight a 75 pound dog.... I'd doubt it very very very much.
> 
> I am much less concerned about coyotes and wolves and far more concerned about other dogs.


While I also doubt the veracity of the original post, the 'yotes in southern Ontario are so well-fed that they are running to the larger end of the scale. They have also come into such constant contact with humans that they are becoming habituated to people and quite bold as a result. I have had them stalk in on my decoys when I was out turkey hunting and my folks have seen one beside their kitchen garden, they've loped through the hay field when we've been out training with multiple dogs in the middle of the day--one actually sat and watched us for some time!--and another hunter friend has been asked to hunt a pack that had been stalking right up to the barn on one of the properties on which he has permission to deer hunt. They are not behaving as they did when I was a kid and you would hear them but not see them.
That said, I am generally far more comfortable out in the woods than at a soccer field where idiots with no control are letting ther untrained dogs run wild, just as I am far less worried about bear in the backcountry then I am in a campground!


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## grcharlie (Nov 10, 2007)

I have some doubts about the original post. I have learned to live with the coyotes and I have respect for them. They do contol the rodent/rabbit population but as long as they stay wild that is good. Its when people start to feed them that it becomes a problem. Yes, they do kill peoples pets. Most the time it is pets that are not in door pets. If you don't have a food source they move on. 

One thing about the OP....If it was me I would get my dogs to the vet and also I would be going to the hospital (for rabies and ect). Also, what park did this happen at? With the times I have seen coyotes (the closest was 10 feet) I never did look to see if it was male or female....LOL. Has anyone else on the board looked? I was more into scaring it off.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

Ranger said:


> I agree with the others who said this is a myth...to be precise, I believe the idea became popularized after the Jack London novel "White Fang", in which a _wolf_ pack used its dominant female to lure sled dogs away from the camp and then the rest of the pack would kill the dog.


 
Talked to the guy today he said what would happen sometimes the coyote would get tired of running and put its back against something and tear the dogs guts out that was chasing it for the hunters. This happened a few times over 50 years hunting coyotes.


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## grcharlie (Nov 10, 2007)

I have a link to the Coyote roller fence See How it Works


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Rabies was my first concern after learning you are all okay. I'm sure by now you are getting vaccinated and the dogs getting boosters. I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I am far more inclined to believe the supervisor of Toronto Animal Services who stated that no such report was ever called in than I am to believe a first time poster who continually edited his original post to reflect what GRF members were questioning, who claimed injuries to himself and the dog but did not seek medical treatment, and who would not post the location of the alleged attack. These things, as well as other inconsistencies, have convinced me that GRF has been "played".


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Wow - I gasped when I read the title of the thread and then again when I saw you were from Toronto - not far from me in Oshawa. I am so glad you are all okay. We moved to a new house a few months ago and back onto open ravine-type land with trees, fields, a golf course nearby, etc. Coyotes are a worry of mine here although I never heard or seen one in this area. One can never be too careful. What time of day did the attack occur?

So glad you are all okay and it's absolutely ridiculous that the City will not do something about the coyotes. This is not the first time in Toronto. There's been other stories of coyotes killing dogs right in their own backyards.....disgusting that the authorities aren't cracking down.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Perhaps the authorities aren't cracking down in this case because nothing was ever reported to them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> Perhaps the authorities aren't cracking down in this case because nothing was ever reported to them.


Precisely. Sheesh.


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## Luci (May 26, 2009)

mm03gn said:


> On the East coast of Canada, there has been speculation that the coyotes are actually wolf-coyote hybrids. They are saying that these hybrids are spreading West and hence why people are seeing "coyotes" that are much larger than standard... Coyote + wolf = new breed of predator - Technology & science - Science - DiscoveryNews.com - msnbc.com
> 
> A Toronto folk singer was killled by coyotes in New Brunswick earlier this year, so I do think that coyotes are getting bolder and all precautions should be made...they may not necessarily be the timid creatures they are known for being...


 
It was actually Cape Breton, NS and they have had a few other attacks out there as well. Last I heard they were trying to figure out what's happening now to cause this, especially in that area.


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## joysgirls (Oct 16, 2010)

This is disappointing -- a false report? - who does that?? and why?? Even so, I wanted to say that I can believe that goldens are not only sweet but brave and would protect their humans.


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## Reindeer (Oct 19, 2010)

*Follow-up to my Coyote attack on my Two Golden's Post*

Hi all,

I have been very busy lately so I have not kept up with this group.

I am the fellow who wrote about my two Golden's being attacked by a male and female coyote.

First, my two Golden's are doing great. We have been back to the same forest on three occasions. Each time I have brought a friend with me and my dogs. Only once did we see the two coyotes. As we were leaving the forest they came up behind us. It was a little spooky the way that they know when we enter the forest.

These same two coyotes have since attacked a number of dogs and owners. The city of Toronto is now considering what to do.

I have read a few follow-up posts saying that my post was a lie and that coyotes would not attack two Golden's and an adult man. Those who wrote these reply's should get a job with the city of Toronto animal services. You would fit right in. 

It is hard to believe but, believe me, we were attacked by these two coyotes.

I am going to find the time to read all the follow-up posts and then I will post again.


Ted


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

*Outside magazine article*

While waiting at the doctor's office I read an interesting article about coyote attacks in the March 2010 issue of Outside magazine. Here is a link to the article:
Coyote Attacks | OutsideOnline.com


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Reindeer said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been very busy lately so I have not kept up with this group.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the follow-up, but we're all still concerned that you didn't mention the name of the park/forest. There are many members in the Toronto area, we would appreciate if you could help us stay safe too!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Reindeer said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been very busy lately so I have not kept up with this group.
> 
> ...


If you read through enough of the posts to know that your story was being doubted, then you saw the multiple posts practically begging you to tell the other Torontonians on the board what park you were in. I wonder why you still haven't shared that info. I know it would be much appreciated.


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## PrincessDi (Jun 8, 2009)

Jimla,
Thanks for posting this article. I think that some coyotes in certain parts of the country (both Canada and the U.S.) may not be as agressive as in other regions. They are wild animals and the danger should not be taken lightly. In my experience living in Anaheim Hills, CA (a very urban area), size did not matter. I have no way of remembering (moved 5 years ago) how many pounds they weighed. My guess is between 30-50 lbs. They jumped 6 foot fences into neighbors back yards on several occasions and in one instance almost killed a full grown rottweiler. It took them several attempts to make it over the fence, but none the less they did. 

On several ocasions they killed or seriously injured dogs that were smaller. Some of these were day time attacks. My brothers cat was eaten before they could intervene. They left only the collar behind. He lived 2 blocks away from me in a very large condomineum complex. I never saw them attack or kill a deer, but several of my neighbors said they had witnessed an attack. I only saw one body of a deer (grown) that was left behind.

None of the authorities in the area would do anything unless a person was injured. I can't remember anyone being injured by them in our area.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Reindeer said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been very busy lately so I have not kept up with this group.
> 
> ...


Sir - Because of your propensity to edit your posts to reflect what is in the postings of others, and your refusal to name the park after so many fellow Toronto members asked which one it was so they could make informed decisions as to where they take their own dogs, I checked with Toronto Animal Services myself. They assured me that no such report was made. I was well satisfied that the director was being truthful, and although I am not a resident, others who are and who have had dealings with them also stated that they are conscientious and doubted that they would have ignored such a serious report.

I would be happy to share my correspondences with Toronto Animal Services with the mods if there is any doubt as to what was discussed. I would think that if the OP did in fact contact them, he would have a report number, and the name of who he spoke with and might offer to share that, as well.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sweet Girl said:


> If you read through enough of the posts to know that your story was being doubted, then you saw the multiple posts practically begging you to tell the other Torontonians on the board what park you were in. I wonder why you still haven't shared that info. I know it would be much appreciated.


 
Additionally, while he may have been too busy to post to the thread, he was certainly visiting the forum and reading it.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My mother called me yesterday from Middletown, RI (right next store to Newport) to report to me that her neighbor's dog was killed yesterday morning by three coyotes.

Her neighbor had tied both of them out in his back yard at 6 am ( so it was still dark ), his yorkshire terrier and labrador retriever. He turned on the flood lights and went in to get his coffee, came back out and found the yorkie already dead, and the lab hiding under the picnic table. He was shocked at how hard it was to chase away the coyotes, they had no fear of him. He was also surprised at how fast this happened. He was only back in the house for what he thought was just 5 minutes.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> My mother called me yesterday from Middletown, RI (right next store to Newport) to report to me that her neighbor's dog was killed yesterday morning by three coyotes.
> 
> Her neighbor had tied both of them out in his back yard at 6 am ( so it was still dark ), his yorkshire terrier and labrador retriever. He turned on the flood lights and went in to get his coffee, came back out and found the yorkie already dead, and the lab hiding under the picnic table. He was shocked at how hard it was to chase away the coyotes, they had no fear of him. He was also surprised at how fast this happened. He was only back in the house for what he thought was just 5 minutes.


 
No one has ever denied that coyotes are becoming more of a problem in many areas, and that small pets and children are very much at risk.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Wow, I guess I'm lucky. I remember last winter I was out working, and when I came back my brother told me about how he had to literally carry Flora inside the house because she was snarling and barking outside at a coyote, which was keeping its distance. I feel very fortunate that the coyote did not decide to attack Flora.

That said, I guess it's the environmentalist in me, but my heart aches for these wild animals. Humanity keeps encroaching on their habitat, and god forbid they act like the wild animals they are. I'm not saying that I am okay with a coyote eating someone's yorkie, but I mean... it's what they do. They don't know any better. They don't understand that once someone builds a house on their habitat that it's no longer their land to hunt on.

I was at an ER vet about 3 months ago where someone's little dog had its back torn off by a hawk - it subsequently died. Wild animals kill and eat other animals - we as dog owners just have to be extra careful when we live in areas with these kinds of creatures. I'll no longer let Flora out alone by herself when I'm back home, since we have coyotes in our neighborhood.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Additionally, while he may have been too busy to post to the thread, he was certainly visiting the forum and reading it.


What is this, a witch hunt?


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Reindeer said:


> .
> 
> 
> I have read a few follow-up posts saying that my post was a lie and that coyotes would not attack two Golden's and an adult man. Those who wrote these reply's should get a job with the city of Toronto animal services. You would fit right in.
> ...


I'm sorry but I have to take issue with your statement above. I have volunteered at Toronto Animal Services and observed employees who took their jobs quite seriously. At no time did I witness anything that made me question my volunteering there. I would never volunteer for any organization that did not do their level best for animals in need. Has TAS always had a stellar reputation? Probably not but look at the fiasco that happened at the Toronto Humane Society. 

Like many people here I am still very interested in knowing where this attack took place. If you go to the trouble of posting a warning on a dog forum I would think the least you can do is tell us where this happened.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> What is this, a witch hunt?


Hardly. It's about the truth, and the safety of GRF member's pets in Toronto.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> Wow, I guess I'm lucky. I remember last winter I was out working, and when I came back my brother told me about how he had to literally carry Flora inside the house because she was snarling and barking outside at a coyote, which was keeping its distance. I feel very fortunate that the coyote did not decide to attack Flora.
> 
> That said, I guess it's the environmentalist in me, but my heart aches for these wild animals. Humanity keeps encroaching on their habitat, and god forbid they act like the wild animals they are. I'm not saying that I am okay with a coyote eating someone's yorkie, but I mean... it's what they do. They don't know any better. They don't understand that once someone builds a house on their habitat that it's no longer their land to hunt on.
> 
> I was at an ER vet about 3 months ago where someone's little dog had its back torn off by a hawk - it subsequently died. Wild animals kill and eat other animals - we as dog owners just have to be extra careful when we live in areas with these kinds of creatures. I'll no longer let Flora out alone by herself when I'm back home, since we have coyotes in our neighborhood.


 
Coyotes are generally quite shy, and are not as likely to attack a large dog as they are smaller pets - cats, and small breeds of dogs (as you often read about being killed by coyotes - Yorkies, and Shih Tzu and Poodles...).
Flora, from the sound of it, would have been more likely to attempt contact with the coyote than the other way around.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Coyotes are generally quite shy, and are not as likely to attack a large dog as they are smaller pets - cats, and small breeds of dogs (as you often read about being killed by coyotes - Yorkies, and Shih Tzu and Poodles...).
> Flora, from the sound of it, would have been more likely to attempt contact with the coyote than the other way around.


Being from Alberta, and living almost out in the country.. (I live right on the outskirts of Okotoks, a town of 23,000 people just south of Calgary), I can say that it is very common to see coyotes around here and they can become quite agressive if they are in a group and they have lost their fear of man.

To be honest, one way to re-instill that fear is to shoot a few. I've done this in the past.. (I used to hunt big game). Out here in Alberta, they are considered to be a varmit and you can hunt them all year round. They however, are generally a flea ridden dirty animal. Upon shooting them, it is best to take the carcass and put it inside a large garbage bag and fill it full of raid to kill all the fleas and lice.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I think I may actually understand where Reindeer is coming from. I have a friend of my family who used to tell amazing tales about his two Huskies and how "tough" they were. They went toe to toe with a mountain lion and even managed to kill a 300 pound black bear while he was on a walk. Most people would be in awe and say "Wow thats so amazing good thing you had those dogs with you!" and fawn over his bravado and courage. He definitely owned the toughest dogs.... if you could be duped into believing a word he said.

A fourteen puond poodle, if it had grabbed your female would do enough damage to warrant a vetinary visit. Let alone a "much bigger than 75 pound coyote that attacked us multiple times trying to drag my female off while I attacked it with my other dog in order to save her from obviously being eaten so you should be fearful due to the non interest of the authorities"

Your story is a concotion, mixed with wishful thinking and bravado that has not a shred of truth. You alarmed the GTA portion of this community making many rethink the parks they attend simply for self serving amusement.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Reindeer said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been very busy lately so I have not kept up with this group.
> 
> ...


I totally believe you. I live out in the country in Alberta and am very familiar with coyotes... I used to do a lot of hunting too.

I've seen more than my fair share of coyotes. Usually the ones that are in the country are generally afraid of man. However, those that live in the city have no fear whatsoever and if they see prey, they will attack it... particularly if their is a group or pack of coyotes (which by the way is becoming more and more common... coyotes used to be a solitary animal). To them, a dog is prey. They can tell that dogs are really stupid when it comes to survival against a wild animal.... 

I am sure the coyotes, that attacked you and your dogs, were primarily attacking the dogs.... not you. They may have gone after you, but their primary objective would have been to kill one or both of the dogs.

As for a coyote that weighs 70 lbs... hmmm pickings in Toronto must be pretty good. I've never seen or shot a coyote out here that weighs that much.... 50 lbs max.

BTW... how did you know that one was a male and the other was female?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Being from Alberta, and living almost out in the country.. (I live right on the outskirts of Okotoks, a town of 23,000 people just south of Calgary), I can say that it is very common to see coyotes around here and they can become quite agressive if they are in a group and they have lost their fear of man.
> 
> To be honest, one way to re-instill that fear is to shoot a few. I've done this in the past.. (I used to hunt big game). Out here in Alberta, they are considered to be a varmit and you can hunt them all year round. They however, are generally a flea ridden dirty animal. Upon shooting them, it is best to take the carcass and put it inside a large garbage bag and fill it full of raid to kill all the fleas and lice.


We have coyotes on our property. They are plenty interested in the occasional stray cat, and the abundance of field mice and rabbits in our 10 acre meadow. They have never attempted to take on any of our dogs. Packs usually are made up of 5 or six related animals, but they almost always hunt in pairs. In our area, they are smallish (40 pounds average), mangy, flea-ridden animals, and also considered a varmint. Agression is usually only seen from sick or wounded animals, or from those that have been purposely fed by humans and no longer consider them a threat, but rather a source of food.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

For two coyotes to attack a group of 3 -- 2 large breed dogs and a human? That sounds like either they are starving or rabid. I've lived in small towns most of my life where the bush is your backyard. Wild animals don't risk injury unless things are desperate. Two 100 pound wolves would be hard pressed to find this as an option... let alone two coyotes.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> We have coyotes on our property. They are plenty interested in the occasional stray cat, and the abundance of field mice and rabbits in our 10 acre meadow. *They have never attempted to take on any of our dogs*. Packs usually are made up of 5 or six related animals, but they almost always hunt in pairs. In our area, they are smallish (40 pounds average), mangy, flea-ridden animals, and also considered a varmint. Agression is usually only seen from sick or wounded animals, or from those that have been purposely fed by humans and no longer consider them a threat, but rather a source of food.


I think *dogs* is the critical word. You have more than one or two dogs... you might even say you have your own pack. One or even two coyotes will not attack a pack of dogs. They know they will lose... even though one on one they would probably win against most dogs.

I guarantee, that if they could get one of your dogs alone, they would attack it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Animal Services: Wildlife in the city: Coyotes


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## sunflowerkd (Oct 26, 2010)

Wow. I am sorry. It sounds traumatizing to everyone. Golden's are tough for all of their sweetness. Take care of your wounds too. Maybe you should carry mace or pepper spray. I used to carry something to protect my dog. He was attacked and so I was afriad for his saftey at 12 or 13 he needed help. 
Twenty minutes must have felt like eternity.
Is there is bigger agency to contact ??


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ryley's Dad said:


> I think *dogs* is the critical word. You have more than one or two dogs... you might even say you have your own pack. One or even two coyotes will not attack a pack of dogs. They know they will lose... even though one on one they would probably win against most dogs.
> 
> I guarantee, that if they could get one of your dogs alone, they would attack it.


That situation, sir, has occurred. Twice. And the dogs involved were older dogs, and would have been relatively easy prey. The coyotes left them entirely alone.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> That situation, sir, has occurred. Twice. And the dogs involved were older dogs, and would have been relatively easy prey. The coyotes left them entirely alone.


Well I guess they just weren't hungry at that time.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Well I guess they just weren't hungry at that time.


...or not willing to be their lives on "probably"...


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Well I guess they just weren't hungry at that time.


...or not willing to bet their lives on "probably"...


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Reindeer, if you are coming to the forum, for the sake of all the members that live in the Toronto area, you owe it to them to give the name of the park that this attack happened. Many of them may walk there with their dogs and children and deserve to know where it happened so this will not happen to them. And possibily something even worse like a child or dog being killed. 
Please give the name of the park in Toronto that this happened.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There is _so _much misinformation being disseminated about coyotes here. Yes, they are becoming more and more visible in urban areas. Yes, the will kill and eat cats and _small _dogs. They will _rarely, if ever,_ take on a dog larger than themselves. They are much more likely to be agressive during breeding season, or if you encroach upon where they are hiding their pups. They may attack small children, but this too is rare. A sick, rabid, or injured coyote is more likely to attack. 
If you live in an area where it is known that there are coyotes, learn about their behavior. Contact you local DNR or Animal Conservationist. Know the breeding season in your area. Learn some common sense behaviors regarding how to react if you do encounter one. Do NOT feed them!

Here are three pretty comprehensive articles:

http://greenwichct.virtualtownhall.net/Public_Documents/GreenwichCT_Conserve/documents/ccCoyoteFactSheet.pdf

http://urbancoyoteresearch.com/Coyote_Attacks.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Well I guess they just weren't hungry at that time.


Did your guarantee of attack exclude "Coyote not hungry" ? 
(Just want to know if there is any fine print before I sign anything )


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Reindeer said:


> These same two coyotes have since attacked a number of dogs and owners. The city of Toronto is now considering what to do.


Hi Ted, I personally hate like heck questioning the veracity of your story. But it is my firm belief that if there were two wild coyotes attacking dogs and their owners in a park in Toronto that the media would have gotten a hold of such a story and warned the residents of Toronto. The media loves stories like this. 
I mean, if the city wasn't doing anything (which I find incredibly hard to believe), then those owners would have contacted every media outlet they could to draw attention to these attacking coyotes. 

It is just too far fetched and sensationalized for me to even consider as being true. 

I'm sorry. I don't doubt there are coyotes in Toronto (I have seen them, and had a run in) ... but the rest of the story just doesn't ring true.

And like other residents of Toronto have said. If you knew enough in your post to say that your story was being doubted, then you knew enough to know that you had been asked continually as to the location of said attacks. And still you brush over that question. 

Just my two cents. And I can't even believe I typed this post, as it seems like I am being drawn into a con!

Kim


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Did your guarantee of attack exclude "Coyote not hungry" ?
> (Just want to know if there is any fine print before I sign anything )


Sorry... missed posting the fine print.... 

As with any wild animal, there is generally a reason why they attack another. Most wild animals don't kill just for the pleasure of it.

So I should have said, "guaranteed they will attack a solitary dog, if there is more than one coyote, if they are hunting and hungry."


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Katie and Paddy's Mum said:


> Hi Ted, I personally hate like heck questioning the veracity of your story. But it is my firm belief that if there were two wild coyotes attacking dogs and their owners in a park in Toronto that the media would have gotten a hold of such a story and warned the residents of Toronto. The media loves stories like this.
> I mean, if the city wasn't doing anything (which I find incredibly hard to believe), then those owners would have contacted every media outlet they could to draw attention to these attacking coyotes.
> 
> It is just too far fetched and sensationalized for me to even consider as being true.
> ...


 
Toronto Animal Services today assured me that this is not the case. I forwarded that email to a moderator. I cannot imagine any reason why they would not be truthful when the safety of the public is at stake.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Toronto Animal Services today assured me that this is not the case. I forwarded that email to a moderator. I cannot imagine any reason why they would not be truthful when the safety of the public is at stake.


Nor can I! The city would definitely not be so cavalier, otherwise they would open themselves up to lawsuits especially if said attacks were happening in city parks and the city was aware it was happening! And as I said in a previous post, the city had me on the phone for over an hour when Katie and I were chased by a couple of coyotes in the spring. They took my complaint very seriously. 

I am glad you forwarded that email to the moderators. And I am glad you followed up with the city! 

Kim


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Just spoke to the TAS staff that took both calls from this man. She assured me that TAS is taking this situation seriously, if indeed it did happen, and have been monitoring the coyotes in the area for a long time and will continue to do so.

BTW, the park is Humber Bay Park.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> Just spoke to the TAS staff that took both calls from this man. She assured me that TAS is taking this situation seriously, if indeed it did happen, and have been monitoring the coyotes in the area for a long time and will continue to do so.
> 
> BTW, the park is Humber Bay Park.



So he did call TAS to report the incident? Pointgold made it sound like no calls/reports were ever made.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

C's Mom said:


> Just spoke to the TAS staff that took both calls from this man. She assured me that TAS is taking this situation seriously, if indeed it did happen, and have been monitoring the coyotes in the area for a long time and will continue to do so.
> 
> BTW, the park is Humber Bay Park.


 
Geez, I live right on Humber Bay Park, and that is where Katie and I got chased early in the spring.
I see and hear of coyotes here all the time. In fact, a bike rider stopped my husband the other night to tell him about coyotes on the public path.

But I haven't heard any reports of owners and their dogs being attacked. I know there are lots of sightings, and the coyotes are very bold (perhaps wrong word, they are not shy). I would have thought that I would have heard if someone in the area had been attacked.

I always warn dog owners when I am in the park though - cause even though it is not technically a leash-free area, most people let their dogs run free. I especially warn people with the smaller toy breeds to be extra vigilant.

It definitely is scary. And I do hope that if the coyotes are indeed attacking other dogs and their owners that action is taken. I also feel sorry for them, as we have encroached on their territory. But here at least i would think they would have loads of ducks/canada geese to forage on.

Thanks for the update!! I will ask around the neighbourhood when I see other people walking their dogs, to see if I have missed anything.

Figures it is my park (and what feels like my backyard!) that these coyotes are supposedly attacking in. 

And on that note, Katie is due for a walk. I think I will take the noise maker my brother bought for me after our run-in in the spring.

 (a nervous) Kim


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

I would have to look back into this thread to be sure but I think that Pointgold spoke to a TAS Director. By chance I was lucky enough to get the actual person who took his calls and I can verify this because I did not give her any information other than asking her if someone called in about coyotes - she told me the rest. There is more information that she gave me but I'm saving this should Mr. Reindeer decided to post here again to scare us some more.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

C's Mom said:


> Just spoke to the TAS staff that took both calls from this man. She assured me that TAS is taking this situation seriously, if indeed it did happen, and have been monitoring the coyotes in the area for a long time and will continue to do so.
> 
> BTW, the park is Humber Bay Park.


Me again, quick question.
Did the TAS official say there were confirmed attacks or just sightings of coyotes?

Thanks


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Katie and Paddy's Mum said:


> Me again, quick question.
> Did the TAS official say there were confirmed attacks or just sightings of coyotes?
> 
> Thanks


She said that they have not received any attack or sightings calls from anyone other then Mr. Reindeer. They are aware of this pack - about 5-6 of them - that move up and down the humber river. She said keep your dogs on a leash and you should be fine.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> So he did call TAS to report the incident? Pointgold made it sound like no calls/reports were ever made.


 
Pointgold has the emails from the supervisor of Toronto Animal Services who stated that no calls or reports were made.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

C's Mom said:


> Just spoke to the TAS staff that took both calls from this man. She assured me that TAS is taking this situation seriously, *if indeed it did happen*, and have been monitoring the coyotes in the area for a long time and will continue to do so.
> 
> BTW, the park is Humber Bay Park.


Why on earth would anyone call TAS and make something up? Of course it happened.

Sometimes, however, a lot of people would rather imply that someone is lying if their story doesn't sound completely kosher.... and thus alienating the new member so that he or she will probably never post here again.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> I would have to look back into this thread to be sure but I think that Pointgold spoke to a TAS Director. By chance I was lucky enough to get the actual person who took his calls and I can verify this because I did not give her any information other than asking her if someone called in about coyotes - she told me the rest. There is more information that she gave me but I'm saving this should Mr. Reindeer decided to post here again to scare us some more.


Did you happen to ask the date that the calls were received from this person?


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

I think the TAS employee did not bother to inform her supervisor of Mr. Reindeer's calls because she believed his reports to be false. 

Mr. "Wilderness Man" Reindeer - are you enjoying yourself yet?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Why on earth would anyone call TAS and make something up? Of course it happened.
> 
> Sometimes, however, a lot of people would rather imply that someone is lying if their story doesn't sound completely kosher.... and thus alienating the new member so that he or she will probably never post here again.


 
You've not been here long enough to have experienced some of the truly amazing hoaxes that individuals have played on the good people here. 
Far more insidious than this story.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Did you happen to ask the date that the calls were received from this person?


I never thought to ask, wish I had, but I do remember her saying a few weeks ago.

She told me that Mr. Reindeer initially called to say that he spotted a coyote eyeing his dogs. (She told me that they were golden retrievers. I did not offer up the breed of his dogs). Then, a short while later he called in again to say that his dogs were attacked. He thought he was talking to a different employee but it was her. He wanted to know by which authority these coyotes were allowed to be in the park - and this question should answer everything. He was obviously alarmed by the coyotes and wanted them removed and when he wasn't going to have them removed by calling in a sighting he decided to up the ante on his story and say his dogs were attacked hoping to spur the city into action.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Why would TAS say there were no calls made if in fact they were made? I don't know if the claims made the OP are true or false, but in the USA, local government and government officials are known to lie to cover things up as well....I'm just saying. It is also completely feasable that the OP is lying, but why? WHat would be in it for him to lie about this? Likw I said...if he is or isnt lying, I DON"T KNOW...but it seems reasonable that anyone living near that area should keep their dog leashed at all times just to be on the safe side. Even if these coyotes haven't attacked anything...just the fact that they are there and it is possible would be enough for me to leash my dog. The* actual* details arent as important when you think of it this way....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Jax's Mom said:


> Why would TAS say there were no calls made if in fact they were made? I don't know if the claims made the OP are true or false, but in the USA, local government and government officials are known to lie to cover things up as well....I'm just saying. It is also completely feasable that the OP is lying, but why? WHat would be in it for him to lie about this? Likw I said...if he is or isnt lying, I DON"T KNOW...but it seems reasonable that anyone living near that area should keep their dog leashed at all times just to be on the safe side. Even if these coyotes haven't attacked anything...just the fact that they are there and it is possible would be enough for me to leash my dog. The* actual* details arent as important when you think of it this way....


 
Please read what I'd posted previously in regards to precautions that Toronto Animal Services themselves urge. Why would they be lying, when the safety of their community is at stake? They are very well aware of the coyote situation, and are hardly non-chalant about it.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Directors of any organization don't necessarily know everything that goes on in it - they are not manning the phones. I suspect that the employee did not pass on this phone call. 

If anyone would like further information please feel free to call TAS here: Animal Services, Homepage

BTW, there are coyotes in High Park and there have been sightings in the smaller parks in downtown toronto.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I saw your posts but I also saw a post saying that the calls were in fact recieved by TAS. Back to my point though. Is it more important to label it a lie or not, or is more important, since it is a known fact that the coyotes are indeed there, that people simply leash their dogs regardless of the validity of the attack?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> Directors of any organization don't necessarily know everything that goes on in it - they are not manning the phones. I suspect that the employee did not pass on this phone call.
> 
> If anyone would like further information please feel free to call TAS here: Animal Services, Homepage
> 
> BTW, there are coyotes in High Park and there have been sightings in the smaller parks in downtown toronto.


 
And the Animal Services supervisor stated the same. 

If such a serious attack had occurred, the supervisor most certainly would have been notified, one would imagine.
Had an event like this occurred, wouldn't protocol have been for the dogs that were attacked to have been examined, and, as the person was also in contact with the coyotes, the person would have been, as well, and even possibly given rabies shots as a precaution?


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

C's Mom said:


> I never thought to ask, wish I had, but I do remember her saying a few weeks ago.
> 
> She told me that Mr. Reindeer initially called to say that he spotted a coyote eyeing his dogs. (She told me that they were golden retrievers. I did not offer up the breed of his dogs). Then, a short while later he called in again to say that his dogs were attacked. He thought he was talking to a different employee but it was her. He wanted to know by which authority these coyotes were allowed to be in the park - and this question should answer everything. *He was obviously alarmed by the coyotes and wanted them removed and when he wasn't going to have them removed by calling in a sighting he decided to up the ante on his story and say his dogs were attacked hoping to spur the city into action.*


I object your honor! Pure and utter speculation on the part of the prosecutor! The prosecutor has not a single fact to back up her "theory". The prosecutor is making things up.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> And the Animal Services supervisor stated the same.
> 
> If such a serious attack had occurred, the supervisor most certainly would have been notified, one would imagine.
> Had an event like this occurred, wouldn't protocol have been for the dogs that were attacked to have been examined, and, as the person was also in contact with the coyotes, the person would have been, as well, and even possibly given rabies shots as a precaution?


Oh ya right.... like all city employees fall correct procedure all the time.... and do the right thing all the time... NOT!


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I would think that if coyotes are attacking people and dogs in an urban park, SOMEONE would get the word out (signs, news media) to alert people of the potential danger. There are mountain lion warning signs in the park where I used to go hiking in California, and that was a wilderness area. One would think that dangerous coyotes in an urban area with a history of bothering/following/attacking would at the very least warrant some sort of public information campaign.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I saw your posts but I also saw a post saying that the calls were in fact recieved by TAS. *Back to my point though. Is it more important to label it a lie or not, or is more important, since it is a known fact that the coyotes are indeed there, that people simply leash their dogs regardless of the validity of the attack?*


Excellent point!

Unfortunately there are a lot of people here who are more interested in proving that Reindeer is a liar. ... without a shred of real evidence I might add... most of their proof is theories and speculation and heresay........ in other words malicious gossip... except this is anonymous internet gossip.

Why is it so important to prove that Reindeer is lying? 

Fact:
1) There are packs of coyotes roaming around in Toronto parks
2) Coyotes have attacked (and in some cases killed) dogs
3) TAS is warning people about coyotes


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Jackson'sMom said:


> I would think that if coyotes are attacking people and dogs in an urban park, SOMEONE would get the word out (signs, news media) to alert people of the potential danger. There are mountain lion warning signs in the park where I used to go hiking in California, and that was a wilderness area. One would think that dangerous coyotes in an urban area with a history of bothering/following/attaching would at the very least warrant some sort of public information campaign.



CTV Toronto - Police warn pet owners, parents, after coyote attack - CTV News

Coyote attacks prompt city to take action - thestar.com

Dog owners cautious after coyote attack | Canada | News | Toronto Sun

Expert stumped by recent coyote attacks on humans - thestar.com

Do you need more?


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Ah what the heck...

Here's one more...

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/travel/Toronto+singer+dies+Cape+Breton+coyote+attack/2154121/story.html


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Why on earth would anyone call TAS and make something up? Of course it happened.
> 
> Sometimes, however, a lot of people would rather imply that someone is lying if their story doesn't sound completely kosher.... and thus alienating the new member so that he or she will probably never post here again.


In fairness to a lot of people, the OP was asked on multiple occasions (while he was still shown as on line) what park the attack had occured in. As a Toronto resident, I was nervous and many of my fellow Torontoians shared the same sentiment. But he never answered this query.

A call/email was put into TAS for the purpose of finding out which park said attacks occured in (not to prove the OP a liar, but instead in an effort to gather more information) and pointgold was told that no such report had ever been made. Therefore, we all felt duped and wondered why someone would come on a public forum and scare Toronto residents like that. 

New information has since come to light. But *at the time *(and with the access to the information we had), it had looked like an elaborate hoax.

I live right next to Humber Bay park, and I know there are coyotes here. Everyone that lives here has a coyote sighting story. So at no time did I ever dismiss the truth of coyotes being in Toronto parks. 

I don't think this forum ever intentionally makes people feel unwelcome. It has been an excellent community for me to be involved in, and I feel like most people are generally very caring and respectful of one another. I would hope an isolated incident like this doesn't cause you to re-think joining this community.

Kim


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Well I do know that Toronto IS the center of the Universe...  :

And that there are a few members on here that live in Toronto... 

but frankly I just don't see the point of coming on here and posting a lie... just to scare the few Torontonians that are members here. It really just doesn't seem to be worth the time or effort. There are way many more places to post a hoax where you would get a much bigger bang for your buck. :wavey:


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

If this is happening, someone needs to contact the media to have them verify the stories with authorities. That way everyone in the area will be notified of what is going on at that park and will be safe going out there. The authorities dont sound like they are trying to hide anything and have worked with the media in the past. 
From the stories posted before that is what was done when one dog was injured and killed. So I think they will do something now. So maybe one of the members can notify the media.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Ryley's Dad said:


> but frankly I just don't see the point of coming on here and posting a lie... just to scare the few Torontonians that are members here. It really just doesn't seem to be worth the time or effort. There are way many more places to post a hoax where you would get a much bigger bang for your buck. :wavey:


yea you're probably right, but really not worth arguing about. IMO :

I was just trying to make the point, that we don't make new people feel uncomfortable as a general rule! I hope that you can attest to that!

Kim (who lives in the center of the universe )


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

To everyone on the forum: This forum was used in the past for an elaborate hoax. It was done by someone using several names and playing on peoples feelings and guilt. Playing three people and one in the hospital in critical condition needing help with that person's three dogs. Then the person taking care of the dog was in an accident. Only after a couple of weeks, did people start to get suspicious when people offered to go to the hospital and dog sit. Luckily no money was ever sent to the person but many people felt betrayed and hurt by that person. And they never apologized. there are people that do like to come to forums to play on people's emotions and sometimes even use dogs to get donations. 

I am in no way saying that this is a hoax but I do say verify the story and contact the authorities and media to get this story out to the people in your area.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Torontonians


Is this a proper noun for folks who live in Toronto.... just askin because I dont want to get beat up next time I visit Toronto and refer to the locals as such :doh:


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> To everyone on the forum: This forum was used in the past for an elaborate hoax. It was done by someone using several names and playing on peoples feelings and guilt. Playing three people and one in the hospital in critical condition needing help with that person's three dogs. Then the person taking care of the dog was in an accident. Only after a couple of weeks, did people start to get suspicious when people offered to go to the hospital and dog sit. Luckily no money was ever sent to the person but many people felt betrayed and hurt by that person. And they never apologized. there are people that do like to come to forums to play on people's emotions and sometimes even use dogs to get donations.
> 
> I am in no way saying that this is a hoax but I do say verify the story and contact the authorities and media to get this story out to the people in your area.



Most hoaxes in the past involved people looking for monetary donations from the unsuspecting members here with kind hearts. To dream up some hoax story with nothing to gain doesn't make much sense, although I suppose stranger things have happened.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

AlanK said:


> Is this a proper noun for folks who live in Toronto....


Either that or Sir, Ma'm, Master, or your highness...


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Ryley's Dad said:


> Either that or Sir, Ma'm, Master, or your highness...


Got it!:roflmao:


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> I never thought to ask, wish I had, but I do remember her saying a few weeks ago.
> 
> She told me that Mr. Reindeer initially called to say that he spotted a coyote eyeing his dogs. (She told me that they were golden retrievers. I did not offer up the breed of his dogs). Then, a short while later he called in again to say that his dogs were attacked. He thought he was talking to a different employee but it was her. He wanted to know by which authority these coyotes were allowed to be in the park - and this question should answer everything. He was obviously alarmed by the coyotes and wanted them removed and when he wasn't going to have them removed by calling in a sighting he decided to up the ante on his story and say his dogs were attacked hoping to spur the city into action.



It's also quite possible that he saw the coyotes tracking them, called and reported it, then the coyotes attacked after he made that call. One TAS employee felt his story wasn't valid, what if it was and that employee who took his calls brushed him off? 

I don't understand why Reindoor would not post the park name or actual location, that is still a good question.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There have been many discussions re: coyotes on this forum, and good information posted about living with them. No one denies that they are around. If the op or anyone else for that matter wanted to discuss the topic, great. The prevelant attitude of "so what if his story isn't true, the info is good" is disturbing. If the truth doesn't matter, what does?  If someone wants to post fiction, fine, post it as such. 
My concern, as I posted previously, was, in addition to odd edits to his posts, his refusal to name the location. I attempted to find out, and was told the incident didn't occur, or at least that it wasn't reported to the TAS Supervisor, who stated that given the seriousness of the attack, it certainly would have been. 


From my correspondence with her on 10/20/10 


"It's possible that this man encountered a couple of coyotes on his walk and he became frightened. I find it very hard to believe that the incident occurred as it is written. The fact that his dogs did not sustain any injuries is inconsistent with his description of the attack. Coyotes in Toronto have been known to display bold behaviour and this can be very scary for people, however we have never had a report of an incident that was of a nature similar to what is being described. 

In Toronto, we are often able to confirm reports of coyotes biting and/or killing small pets (cats/small dogs). We often get reports of coyotes that approach pedestrians in parks within an uncomfortable distance. However, with the exception of one coyote in 2002, we have not had a report of any coyotes biting or attacking people. The coyote in 2002 was injured, walking on 3 legs - he could not hunt, it was February and he was being fed a chicken every day by a member of the public. This coyote did start nipping people in a park - none of the bites were serious. He was so desperate that we managed to capture him in a humane trap with one of his chickens."

And, as I'd posted previously, she also wrote: 

"please talk about leashing and closely supervising pets while in ravines or known coyote habitat. Avoid walking dogs,even on leash, in coyote habitat during coyote mating season (in Toronto, Jan - Feb). Please also encourage dog owners to actively scare away any coyote that is seen. You are probably aware of how intelligent coyotes are - they learn that when they come close to people and nothing bad happens, that people aren't scary. We need to ensure that coyotes retain their natural fear of humans. Most importantly, never inadvertently or deliberately feed coyotes."


I am inclined to believe TAS.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There does not have to be money involved for someone to get something out of creating a hoax.

Discussion - Why do People Create Email Hoaxes?


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Ryley's Dad said:


> CTV Toronto - Police warn pet owners, parents, after coyote attack - CTV News
> 
> Coyote attacks prompt city to take action - thestar.com
> 
> ...


Ok, let's look at what you presented here. 

1st link - happened in Jan 2010 and at the other end of the city.
2nd link - happened in Feb 2009 and again, at other end of the city.
3rd link - happened Aug 2010 and in Calgary, a different province entirely.
4th link - Aug 2010 and happend in Halifax, again a different province entirely.
(Your 5th link was a repeat of link 4). And your point was?

I am not playing "prosecutor" here. This person came here and said he was attacked. When questioned repeatedly about where this took place he did not answer. Even though he claimed he did not have the time to answer the question he found the time to come on this forum to surf. If he wanted to be taken seriously then he should have answered a simple question. Trust me, I would be the first one on the phone to TAS and the media if I felt that this really did happen. I love dogs (and people too) and would want to sound the alarm if needed.

Do you really think that TAS would not follow up if this was serious? They would risk putting the general public at harm and a hefty lawsuit besides. 

As I posted in an earlier thread Call TAS. I even provided a link. A quick phone call should put your mind at ease.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

C's Mom said:


> Do you really think that TAS would not follow up if this was serious? They would risk putting the general public at harm and a hefty lawsuit besides.


Whew - I missed a LOT here while I was at work.

I also fully believe that TAS would have followed up and issued some kind of warning if it was reported that 2 70-pound coyotes were on the loose, attacked two dogs, and kept attacking for 20 minutes. At the very least, I'd expect them to post signs at the park in question.

The OP's seeming reluctance to share what park/forest he was in is what started to raise questions on the forum. If you look back at the original responses, we all fully believed and sympathized. But when we started to probe, questions weren't being answered. 

And when the OP did return, he STILL didn't answer the basic question we were begging him to tell us (what park??) - and instead just got angry and insulted the TAS again (and another poster). 

I think people's reluctance to jump on board and believe it all is warrented. People asked for more facts - but they weren't provided. Leaving them to speculate.


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## Reindeer (Oct 19, 2010)

*Yes, my two Golden's were attacked*

*Yes, my two Golden's were attacked*

The park was Kingsmill Park along the Humber River Valley, in the city of Toronto, under the Old Mill TTC Subway Station.

Many other people have had trouble with coyotes in the same area.

I am busy and I do not spend much time on this site. I just stumbled back on it during a search. Sorry, I am busy.

The authorities told me that "coyotes would not attack two Golden Retrievers".

Well they did attack. The attack went on for about 20 minutes. It does not matter to me who believes me, that this attack happened.

I wrote this to share my experience so that other people who may have had similar experiences with coyotes will not be alone in informing the public.

Coyotes of yesteryear were small animals similar to the size of large foxes. The new breed of coyote has bread with wolves and our now much larger and more dangerous.

I own and run an outdoor adventure company. I spent a lot of time in city wilderness and in country forests. Predatory animals have a right to exist in wilderness areas outside of our cities. They should be protected and respected. Urban dwellers should not have to fear being attacked by dangerous animals right here in the city while going for a walk or walking our dogs. That is my opinion. Some people believe that man should always take a back seat to animals. In the city, I disagree.

Ted


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## harrym (Nov 13, 2010)

We have coyotes in the trees of the horse pasture in the next block and across the street, and I hear them when I take the dogs out at night. But they are never that large. They did carry our neighbor's poodle off in the daylight, but she was a toy -- not full size. People on that edge of town cannot keep outside cats.


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

Coyotes are found in the Phoenix valley too. We live in the middle of Scottsdale on a golf course and two large packs of Coyotes feast on Quail, Rabbits and whatever is in the clubhouse dumpster. I don't know of any dog attacks; but a missing cat is a goner. I agree that our guys are smaller than their northern cousins (about 50-55 lbs.) but they can gang up on anything. 

So far the coyotes are fearful of people - I want to keep it that way!


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## Jean_NJ (Dec 15, 2010)

In Central jersey about three years ago a toddler and then a few days later a 5 year was attacked by a coyote. If it were rabid it could be even bolder


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

I've seen coyotes here in Cleveland and surrounding burbs. They can be bold.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wow. 

I still have a real difficult time with this one (even 5 months later.)


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## Doreens (Mar 1, 2007)

OH My im so glad you aand your dogs were ok. As I was reading I thinking please have a nice ending. This is awful Im so gald you are all ok.

that does not sound good at all. How scary


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## Doreens (Mar 1, 2007)

Oh Im just reading this is a hoax is it. gee would not people have something better to do if this is so


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## cprcheetah (Apr 26, 2009)

My friends rottweiler was attacked by 2 coyotes, they even went after the owner. She thought the female might have been in heat and thats why they attacked.


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## kwiland (Aug 27, 2009)

I don't know if this post is 'true' or not. But there are a lot of coyotes where I live, and they do attack cats and dogs. Usually smaller dogs. But it is not unreasonable that a coyote could attack a dog, even a large dog like a Golden. It's possible. I don't know if it happened, but it is definitely possible. One of the things that worried me about moving to San Antonio was the coyote attacks. I decided that, in my area, with my fence, the chance is very low. If I lived 15 minutes further out from the city, it would be a major concern. More for my cat than my dogs.


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## Reindeer (Oct 19, 2010)

*Owner of Two Golden's attacked by coyotes in 2010.*

Hi all,
I see that I have many doubters and many well wishers to my original post about the attack on my two Golden's. I also noticed that many of you wish to know what park the attack occurred in. The park was Kingsmill Park below Bloor Street west along the Humber River. All I can say to you doubters is "It's True". A number of dogs have been attacked in this park. There are now signs telling people to beware of coyotes. Thank you to all you well wishers. Bailey and Brandy are doing great. Since the original attack Bailey and Brandy have made it their duty to look for Coyotes. They do have more opportunity then most dogs because I run a adventure company and my dogs and I are always out in the bush. Last summer my wife and I took the dogs canoeing. We were taking a break and allowed our dogs some time out of the canoe. Brandy took off into the bush, quickly followed by Bailey. They did not respond to my calling them. Suddenly I heard a major dog fight. My wife returned to the canoe and I ran into the forest to get my two dogs. I soon was confronted by two, not too large coyotes. I continued towards the noise of my dogs who were in a major fight. I could not find my dogs but my dogs found me. I put the dogs on leashes and made my way back to the river. This was another scary coyote situation. They had fought a pack of coyotes. This time brandy had a cut on her throat. Now, I know that this second coyote attack write-up is going to fuel the non believers and I do understand why you could be doubtful. I own and operate an adventure company. My dogs are in the bush on a weekly basis. We do not get attacked every week it has happened twice in four years. The second time my dog Brandy instigated the attack. My concern is for children living in our city playing in or near our parks and ravines. Coyotes do not differentiate between a deer or a child. In my personal opinion packs of coyotes do not belong inside cities. Man should take priority in cities and animals should take priority in the country side. Some of you are going to write me to tell me to take better care of my two dogs. How? When in the bush my dogs enjoy the great outdoors as much if not more then I do. Is it fair to always keep them on a leash while in the bush. I treat my dogs much the same way as I treat my life. Being out in the forest has it's dangers but does that mean that one should not venture out into the forest. I say that in order to enjoy life you have to allow yourself to live even if that involves some risk. To bad my bear story does not involve my Golden's or I would share it with you all. Have a safe and happy 2014 - Ted



Reindeer said:


> *My two Golden's attacked by COYOTES*
> 
> On Sunday October 17th, 2010 my two Golden Retriever's were attacked by a large male Coyote and it's mate.
> 
> ...


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

What causes the disbelief is that you called them coyotes. I did some reading about the wildlife in that area when you started this thread a few years ago.

Technically speaking they really aren't coyotes, they are a wolf/coyote hybrid. 50 years ago we had a similar sized animal around here, much larger than a coyote (45 pounds) but quite a bit smaller than the gray wolf (120 pounds). We called them brush wolves and they were about the size of a large retriever. They had the nasty disposition of the gray wolf and the bold as brass personality of the coyote, and it was a bad combination. They were a royal pain in the butt. As the human population started to filter out into the rural areas the brush wolves were eradicated due to conflict with humans. 

What you're dealing with is a wild canine that is about the same size as your dog, that has staked out a territory (the park). Like the wolf it will defend that territory from all other canines of similar size or smaller. You've kind of become involved in a canine gang turf war.


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## Bentman2 (Sep 30, 2013)

*Coyotes-Coywolf*

The coyotes are more than likely crosses between a coyote and the eastern wolf. This has been going on for a good while now. The result is that the hybrid is larger than a regular coyote and more bold. We have coywolves in Virginia so for sure you probably have them in Toronto. If these animals are accepted in the city limits, then I would start carrying a "night stick" to beat them off. A night stick of hickory or oak can do substantial damage if you use it right. We are happy that you and your dogs are okay.


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

To be fair - I doubt I would know the difference, nor would I care if my dog was getting attacked! We can just leave it at wild animals attacked his dogs if you prefer!

I have a friend who lives just outside Columbus OH. She has always had 2 or 3 horses on her property. A few years ago a pack of coyotes (at least that is what she called them) attacked one of the horses. The "alpha" male stepped in to protect his herd, and suffered a pretty brutal attack. He never really recovered and didn't last much longer.

I don't care WTH they are - it is scary that our family members can get attacked so close to home.


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

My best friend has wonderful wolf/dog hybrids as pets as well as many other breeds, most of them rescues. The first wolf/dog hybrid she and her husband took in was left on their posted land when she she was a tiny puppy by some hunters. (They, then, lived in rural Maine.) Their wolf hybrids were all raised as pets from puppyhood, but they still have to be careful with one of the three around humans. We had a playdate here two days ago. Two of the wolf-hybrids came to play with Griffin. (All her dogs can't come; she has ten!) The one who can get snippy, Faith, is fine with Griffin and with me. She loves being in this house and was fine with my daughter because my daughter was here when she entered the house, but when my father came home in the middle of her visit she started to growl. My best friend's husband was immediately on top of the situation. (They are_ very_ vigilant with Faith!) They didn't know if it was because my father came home after she arrived and she perceived him as an intruder or it it was because he had a pipe in his mouth. (He doesn't smoke, but carries an unlit pipe by habit.)

Whatever the case my friend's husband held Faith on her leash and my father went into another room by choice as well. These wolf hybrids can be very, very loving companions, though. Faith is great with her family and with me. She is loving and cuddly. 

NewfieMom


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Reindeer I feel you lied. I feel you were uncomfortable when you saw a couple so you reported a dramatic incident to try and get those signs out and more awareness. How did you tell the sex of these animals in such a struggle? Do you realize just how long twenty minutes is? An attack lasting twenty min which included one pup being dragged off, would have ended very bloody. Plus no vet visit? How in the world is this story even possible? It's not. People lie for various different reasons so I have no idea why you did. Doesn't matter. It is what it is. 


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

Shellbug said:


> Reindeer I feel you lied. I feel you were uncomfortable when you saw a couple so you reported a dramatic incident to try and get those signs out and more awareness. How did you tell the sex of these animals in such a struggle? Do you realize just how long twenty minutes is? An attack lasting twenty min which included one pup being dragged off, would have ended very bloody. Plus no vet visit? How in the world is this story even possible? It's not. People lie for various different reasons so I have no idea why you did. Doesn't matter. It is what it is.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



There are wild coyote in that area, even in urban areas. There's an article on "The Globe And Mail" website from 2009 that references coyotes in that area, including Bloor street - Don't fear or feed city-dwelling coyotes, Torontonians urged - The Globe and Mail

This is a super old thread...I guess it's possible they lied, but I'm not all that inclined to believe that a person would re-visit it this many years later if they were lying...IMHO


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

DianaM said:


> Oh and here's a question... do you think coyotes would be attracted to a dog in heat?


In my experience yes, especially if your dog is in heat when they are in their breeding season. Usually they will just venture closer to the house than normal, BUT they are still afraid of humans and won't bother an in heat female if you are with them. I just don't let mine out at night without a leash during their breeding since just to be safe and haven't had a problem.


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

Swampcollie said:


> Technically speaking they really aren't coyotes, they are a wolf/coyote hybrid.


Swampcollie-

I am about as far from expert on this subject as anyone can be. I have no practical experience with coyotes, and unlike you, have done no reading on the subject. I just want to throw out the one thing I happen to know to ask you (or any other experts out there) how it fits in.

My friend with the three wolf hybrids adopted a coyote hybrid dog from "Death Row" in a kill shelter in Arizona. (It is called that. She was still a puppy, but was about to be killed.) She was the most skittish of all the dogs my friend has adopted, the one least able to make friends with her other dogs (although now she has two dog friends from among the pack).

The wolf-hybrids absolutely hate her and want to kill her and, although she is tiny compared to them, she would kill any of the wolf hybrids if allowed to do so. My friend says that coyotes and wolves are anathema to each other and get rid of each other (usually the wolves get rid of the coyotes) when they start to get into each others' territory.

This vicious little spitfire gets along *perfectly* with their (very mellow) pitbull now that they know each other.

If it is true that coyotes and wolves do not get along, why are there hybrid wolves and coyotes?

NewfieMom


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## darcylee (Jun 28, 2013)

Coyotes will attack - especially when they're hungry enough. I have seen coyotes come in the night and try to "call" farm dogs across the road. Thankfully, the farm dogs do NOT cross the road, and stay safe in the yard surrounding the house. Coyotes will also stalk and take down a new calf and also a downed cow - if they're hungry enough (especially a downed cow). These coyotes are not "protected" in this area. 

But it sounds like they are protected in the original post. As with any protected animal, they become less afraid of people in their shared surroundings and more bold in their actions. I've lived in a place where deer were protected. They no longer run from people (or even bother to move out of the road when you're trying to drive on it). Deer are pretty tame though, right? Except not the bucks in mating season. My neighbors were charged by a buck not even 20 feet from the back door of their house! That's a little too comfortable for me. 

From what I've seen and know about coyotes, especially when they're hungry and in packs, I can understand them attacking other dogs. 

I'm glad the two goldens are ok.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

A few years ago I watched a coyote like animal sit in our field and watch my kennels. It was way to big for a coyote but no wolf would be out in broad daylight that close to a home and outbuildings. The way it was watching the dogs was unsettling. I certainly would not want to meet up with one of these while out hunting or walking.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Leslie B said:


> A few years ago I watched a coyote like animal sit in our field and watch my kennels. It was way to big for a coyote but no wolf would be out in broad daylight that close to a home and outbuildings. The way it was watching the dogs was unsettling. I certainly would not want to meet up with one of these while out hunting or walking.


You probably had a girl in heat. (or she was in heat and looking for a date with Sam. :curtain: )


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

We have both coyotes and wolves here in Anchorage and the surrounding area. The wolves were getting as bold as the coyotes. Most of the wolves were on the military base that borders Anchorage. Many people on the military base had been harassed by the wolves and stalked by them, so the military killed the wolves off. I no longer here in them in the winter singing. Unfortunately, it left an opening for the coyotes. Now we see the coyotes during the day, bold as brass as someone else said on here. I think they should be killed back also. They don't belong in town. As long as there is food for them, they will be around.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> You probably had a girl in heat. (or she was in heat and looking for a date with Sam. :curtain: )



LOL!! The old boy does not discriminate - any girl will do!


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

I think most people had a problem believing the story because of the size. There have been no sightings where I live on Staten Island yet, but Coyotes have been seen in Central Park, in the heart of Manhattan and they are all over the Bronx. 

My understanding of a Coyote is that they are around 45 lbs or so and I'm *certain* that if one of those were foolish enough to attack Axl, he would maul or kill it very quickly unless I prevented him from doing so. A 75 lb coyote-wolf hybrid would be no sure bet against him either. I say that based on what I personally witnessed him do to a 140 lb Rottweiler that attacked him for no reason while he was doing his disc thing, in an off leash park a few years back. He is a wonderful, gentle example of the breed in *every way* but when attacked by something on 4 legs...watch the eff out. It's difficult to believe that he's the same dog that cuddles with me every night and bathes my face with kisses. The speed, savagery and ferocity with which he reacts is *that* extreme...like no golden I've ever seen or heard of. Ten seconds later, his tail is wagging and he's back in play mode, like nothing happened. It's actually freaky to watch, like a switch is flipped. He may have been a fighting pit pull in a former life...LOL. I am convinced he had a previous incarnation as a disc catching Whippet as well.

If I were out with Ax and Angus (or even just Ax) and we were confronted by two 75 lb "whatevers", I can pretty much guarantee that the engagement would* not* last 20 minutes and the attackers would think twice before they tried it again, if ever. Axl's dad is well capable of a fair amount of violence, when warranted as well...


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## Sammy3goldens (Dec 23, 2013)

I am so glad you are ok. We are really at the mercy of vicious animals since ours are not ready to attack. I live in Tulsa OK, far south from you, and we have a problem with coyotes here. They have made their way into nice neighborhoods, and have attacked animals in their own yards. I sort of thought that they were afraid of humans. 

We have recently been attacked also. The animal control took away the animal, and I filed a police report. 

I am going to order my bear spray right now. I think you ought to consider something to carry if the police allow the coyotes to run in the parks.

I am so glad you are ok. Many of us would not have been able to survive such an attack.

Sammy


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Bear spray. Great idea! When Pearl goes into heat I will be on high alert for coyotes and foxes. Will carry bear spray when I take her out. We have foxes in the immediate area and see them in our field. We can hear coyotes but they seem to be a bit a ways away from the sound of them, and we don't see them.

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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

PBS will air a program this month on the emergence of this hybrid and how it is expanding its range into urban and suburban areas.


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## Marygold25 (Mar 8, 2014)

I was looking for information about coyotes attacking larger dogs, I have a Golden Retriever and she is 11 years old. I had a coyote jump my 6ft fence while it was still light outside. My girl is old and wouldn't hurt anything. She has carried a live mouse in her mouth and set it down gently to have a better look at it but all she did was lick it. That a coyote could jump our fence and attack her frightens me. We have a Queensland Heeler and she is even older, blind from cataracts and deaf. She would fight but our Retriever would not. I was sitting outside late last night and heard fence rattling and then the sounds of a dog being attacked. My neighbor has several small to medium dogs and I am sure one of them was being killed but my leg is broken and I could not get over to her in time. By the time I did get there it was over. This just terrifies me for my dogs. I will use some of the suggestions posted about fencing but I have a very large property. They use a dog door and I put it in at night. I am just going to have to stay out there with them when they are outside. I also have rabbits that have made a warren near the fence on my neighbors side so I think that attracts them too. I am so glad the original poster and his dogs were not badly injured. I will be very alert now that I know how aggressive coyotes can be. We live in a semi-rural area and see them out in broad daylight and have chased them banging pots and yelling at them. My grandson is only 6 and I won't let him play outside by himself anymore either. Thank you for sharing your experience.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Last spring, several towns in Colorado, including mine, were experiencing coyote attacks on humans. In all cases, these were suburban areas, mostly walking/biking paths. In Boulder, an adult male jogger was viciously attacked in broad daylight. My angel golden, Cody, and I were stalked by two coyotes that looked a great deal like wolves, although I know of no coyote/wolf hybrids in the area. Marygold, you are right not to let your old dogs out without supervision, nor your grandchild. A friend who lives just outside of town had her old border collie attached by twelve coyotes; her other two ran back to the barn to tattle, and Julie and her ranch hand were able to drive them off with pitchforks. It took 258 stitches to close the dog's wounds, and she was near death for a while. Keeping a loud horn on your person, Marygold, may keep them away long enough to fetch your dogs in an emergency.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

I live in the rural farmlands of Northwest N.J. and u can sometimes hear the wailing of the coyote packs. Sets my hair on end. We also have black bear roam freely thru the yard quite often. 25 years ago, there were about 300 in the whole state. Now there are about 3000+ They mostly run off when they see humans or dogs. But a few times I have run across a very enormous old timer and he or she was looking at me like I was dinner  Love to catch the mommies and cubs early season.

We've had foxes run thru the yard at dusk. They are almost as big as Ollie. 
Yesterday I had an enormous hawk land right outside my living room window stalking the birds at my feeder. Never saw one so close. Beautifully impressive. Was afraid to move to get the camera. Stayed there for about 10 minutes.

I love all nature's animals. But caution and care is always needed


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> PBS will air a program this month on the emergence of this hybrid and how it is expanding its range into urban and suburban areas.



I saw this programme on the "shy wolf."
Very interesting to see them living literally inside major cities, in urban wilderness areas like major parks. They travel the railroad lines. 


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## mygoldengirl (Jan 10, 2014)

we have a huge rabbit population in my development and the foxes are not far behind. my back yard is fence in but I still keep an eye on my two and the rifle is always within reach


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I got it wrong. It's not shy wolf; they're calling this natural hybrid (not cross bred by humans) the "coy wolf."

Infographic: A field guide to the Coywolf, or Eastern Coyote | Nature | PBS | Nature | PBS


http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/meet-the-coywolf/meet-the-coywolf/8605/


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

They call those coy dogs around here.


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