# When no food = no work



## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

[Note: I’d rather this thread did not turn into a debate on whether or not to use treats as part of training or why you think compulsion training is more effective. If that’s your preference, fine. If you want to try to convince us that your way is better, please start your own thread. This thread is for those of us who choose to train with food and toys and want to get the same performance in the ring as we do in training. Thank you!]

I choose to train my dogs for Rally using food and toys. Although we’ve had decent success, my dog’s “perfect” performance in training (with treats and/or toys available for immediate reinforcement) becomes an “adequate” performance in the ring. I know I need to work on getting the rewards off my body without my dog thinking that that means no rewards will be forthcoming. I was going to go back and refresh my memory of how “cookie jar games” work, but I happened to stumble across this blog post on the Fenzi website and I thought it was worth sharing in case it’s helpful for those of you with similar struggles.









Does ‘No Food = No Work’ With Your Dog? Here’s How to Fix That


I watched the dog and handler carefully. They were practising their heelwork and it looked lovely! The handler strode out, confident and sure; her dog trotted along next to her, attentive and happy. Then I noticed the fly in the ointment…Can you do that again for me please? I felt bad about...




www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I do not follow Fenzi so not sure what she or affiliated trainers recommend.... a lot of people either seem very political (dog training politics which I get very irritated by - especially the purity test types) or just not focused on competition obedience. 

Most people I train with recommend quickly moving from having treats in hands (with puppies) to transitioning to having treats on a chair outside the ring - which is basically what people do at trials (dogs work their butts off because they know the reward IS COMING once they get back to the setup.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Retrievers will work their butts off just to be good dogs if you transition away from treats completely at about 10 weeks.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Retrievers will work their butts off just to be good dogs if you transition away from treats completely at about 10 weeks.


Unless you are talking about day to day living where it doesn't matter how a dog does something because you aren't asking anything specific of the dogs.... this is not the route to go if you want to have fun in training your dog for competition and sports.

You live in field 99% of the time - which case, there are natural rewards for the dogs that mean more than food. It's a completely different thing than training a dog for other sports where you do not have the same natural rewards.

Many people who use programs that discourage the use of motivation (the fundamentals of clicker training) and rewards - I see very few of them persist beyond basic obedience.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> You live in field 99% of the time - which case, there are natural rewards for the dogs that mean more than food. It's a completely different thing than training a dog for other sports where you do not have the same natural rewards.


That's true, my dogs are rewarded often by doing what they were born to do. I would not have retrievers if that wasn't the case.
I do teach my dogs obedience, no natural rewards and 99% of the time with no treats.

Natural reward for Lily this morning. Her first rooster.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Intermittent rewarding - sometimes you get a treat every time - sometimes it's every other time - sometimes it's every 3rd time. Keep changing it up so she never knows for sure.

Keep treats and toys hidden in different places around the room or the ring or yard and then after you release from an exercise, make running to the treat with her a game, "yay! good dog!! let's go find your treat!" and again, intermittent rewarding is what you'd build toward.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> That's true, my dogs are rewarded often by doing what they were born to do. I would not have retrievers if that wasn't the case.


Don't get me wrong - goldens are better than other breeds where it comes to doing things because they want to please.  

But there's things like teaching articles to young dogs where... there's many ways to do it, but it needs very particular training to get the dogs to understand what you want them to do. 

Many dogs who have been force fetched struggle with articles because they've been trained to just go in and GRAB. It take very particular training to get them to understand what their actual job is. 

For what this thread was intended though - it's about keeping dogs focused and motivated when you go into the ring and are limited in how to keep the dog "on" the whole time from the first exercise to the last. The top trainers in the country are people who literally have cans of cat food (the moist stuff) at their setups which the dogs will get after each run in the ring. It's all "do it to get it"....


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

I know that what works for me, personally, so far (trying to give a big disclaimer here that this is not very well tested advice lol) is moving from one command and treat to several commands and treat l. Instead of doing sit, treat, down, treat, etc, I’ll do sit down stand sit down sit stand sit, treat. That has also worked for me in stringing together leg weaves- instead of getting a treat for each weave, he gets a treat after five. I think that you could eventually apply this concept in a way similar to what Megora is talking about- working up until the string of behaviors is the whole run, then treat.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

When I train Logan at the obedience club, I keep his treats off to the side and not on my person. We occasionally go get one when he's done well repeatedly. When I train him in competition obedience class, I sporadically treat him -- not a lot. When we've done stuff (just starting) outdoors for field/hunt type training there are no treats. In agility, he gets two on/two off target treats and at the end of runs sometimes. Logan seems to enjoy praise & play w/toys as a reward more than treats. I work that into a lot of our training.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I’ve trained with a number of different methods, so I have a basis for comparison.
I started competing in Obedience as a teenager in the 1970s using a combination of mild check chain use for guidance and occasional correction, combined with praise, play and retrieving for rewards.
I stopped using check chain corrections in the 1990s and trained my husky to her CD using only verbal and body language corrections, as well as praise, play and retrieving rewards.
I used food rewards for the first time in the 2000s, but stuck to jackpot rewards only until I got my current dog.
With my current dog, I use food a lot. I switched to intermittent rewards and cached rewards very early in training, with methods not dissimilar to those in the Fenzi blog. However, I continue to use food a lot, particularly for heeling training, rewarding from my hand at the instant of perfection, because I find I can get greater precision by rewarding where I want my dog’s nose to be than by any other method.
I accept that a correctly used check chain is an effective way of showing many dogs what you want. However, it is not the most effective method, even when well used, and too many people don’t know - or don’t want to know - how to use a check chain humanely. In addition, some dogs, particularly those with ewe necks, have prominent tracheas, unprotected by muscle and fat. Understandably, these dogs resent even mild use of the check chain.

It’s probably worth adding that my current dog is a dutiful retriever of inanimate objects rather than an enthusiastic one. (Birds gets a much more enthusiastic response!) If she was keener, I’d happily substitute a retrieving reward for food.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Randomizing rewards works, to a point. Unless your dog is too stupid to train, however, he will soon figure out that there are no rewards in the ring except for your praise, and, in regular OB, not even praise except between exercises. Connie Cleveland does not like the term "ring-wise"; she prefers "ring-confused." The dog starts to wonder what it is doing wrong and, no matter what he does, he is apparently never right because you never reward him. He is baffled. 

Petra Ford (2x NOC winner and winner at Crufts in OB) has a good webinar about how she teaches the dog he has to keep working to get the reward. Basically, it involves the whole routine of entering the gates, taking the leash off, setting up, and asking the dog to perform up to a certain point before you leave the ring and get the reward. The point at which the dog gets to leave and get the reward depends on the stage of training. It might be walking in, taking the leash off, and doing a single set up (for starting dogs), doing one exercise, or doing a series of exercises. If the dog does not perform to her criteria, she goes out of the ring and starts over. She does not correct and keep going. 

There's a lot more to it than that. She builds a lot a drive with games, is careful from the start to not do a lot of chatter. From the beginning, she works to give verbal and physical cues exactly like she will do them in the ring, she treats the transition between exercises as an important exercise in itself, and, of course, she's a great trainer with superb timing. 

In Rally, it is easier to keep up enthusiasm because you can talk to your dog, BUT, you need to use that power the right way. Since I do primarily regular OB, my natural inclination in Rally was initially to not do much talking. That works okay with my dogs. However, I've found that you can really ramp up the dog's excitement if you use voice in the right way. You NEVER want to cheer-lead (i.e., sweet talk and encourage) a lackluster dog. Throw in some praise when the dog is looking attentively at you and at certain key locations. When, for example, I do the moving drop, walk around, at the pause in heel after the walk around, I will tell my dog what a great job he did during the pause in heel position. In Rally, because there are so many different exercises, I also give a verbal at the sign and, for the more difficult ones, I will tell him a step or two ahead what is coming so he can mentally shift gears. For example: "Drop is coming." as we step to the sign, the "Drop!" at the sign. Or "Get ready to Beep-beep" Then. "Beep-beep-beep." (My command for backing up.) 

The best reward depends on the dog. My Pinyon vastly prefers retrieving a toy (he will do anything for his crackle ball) to a boring treat. My prior girl and my current puppy like a little play, but treats are the favorite. If the dog seems stressed, playing works better to unstress than food. 

And, of course, if you are doing retriever training, most retrievers don't care about treats. The retrieve is the reward. Virtually no current high-level OB trainers train without food or play rewards. Praise is not enough to get a dog to work over and over on those perfect fronts and finishes or to heel with the level of enthusiasm and focus you want in OB. 

Good luck.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

PalouseDogs said:


> Petra Ford (2x NOC winner and winner at Crufts in OB) has a good webinar about how she teaches the dog he has to keep working to get the reward.


Kelly - Do you happen to have a link to that webinar?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> Randomizing rewards works, to a point. Unless your dog is too stupid to train, however, he will soon figure out that there are no rewards in the ring except for your praise, and, in regular OB, not even praise except between exercises. Connie Cleveland does not like the term "ring-wise"; she prefers "ring-confused." The dog starts to wonder what it is doing wrong and, no matter what he does, he is apparently never right because you never reward him. He is baffled.


Just to add, sometimes dogs who become ringwise - it's not about "not getting rewards". Sometimes it's dogs who learn they "do not have to" in the ring. 

If in training, the dogs know a correction is coming if they don't take a jump - so they jump. 

Or even worse - the dogs learn that if they ignore the first command, the owner will repeat the command and they'll do it then. 

As well, sometimes people do not realize everything they do in training that they may not do in the ring. That includes people who are so cowed in the actual ring with a judge following them that their commands are whispered... which the dog is not going to hear.....

My personal issues which have led to my dog's errors in the real ring.... it's only doing things when my dog wants to do them - and quitting when my dog isn't "on". It's a good training tactic to motivate and really make training positive.... but it also never puts your dog in the position where whenever a command is uttered, the dog switches to working mode.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Just to add, sometimes dogs who become ringwise - it's not about "not getting rewards". Sometimes it's dogs who learn they "do not have to" in the ring.
> 
> If in training, the dogs know a correction is coming if they don't take a jump - so they jump.
> 
> ...


I was just told this past week I'm soft spoken and need to make my commands sound like commands. I conveyed this information to my husband and he laughed.  I guess I'm nicer to Logan. lol


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

pawsnpaca said:


> Kelly - Do you happen to have a link to that webinar?


Petra Ford courses link: https://petrasdogresourcecenter.com/webinars-online-courses/
She's doing a lot of courses through Fenzi these days. I'd start with a couple of her past webinars from 2020, specifically "No cookies, no dog" the Engagement one, and maybe the heeling with distractions one. You only get to view them for 4 months after purchase, so don't buy a lot at once.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Megora said:


> Just to add, sometimes dogs who become ringwise - it's not about "not getting rewards". Sometimes it's dogs who learn they "do not have to" in the ring.
> 
> If in training, the dogs know a correction is coming if they don't take a jump - so they jump.
> 
> ...


I don't believe this is true for many dogs, and especially not most goldens. Goldens have a strong work ethic and a strong desire to please. In or out of the ring, they want to do the right thing. The trouble in the ring is, the trainer often uses so much continuous feedback during training (both positive and negative) that the dog is confused when there is no feedback in the ring. Dogs learn mostly by trial and error. In the ring, e.g., they may be anxious because of all the strange dogs and people, the drive to the show, being in a crate for hours, a hotel room, their owner's anxious behavior, etc. In the ring, an anxious dog may hesitate to, say, drop on recall, because it's a scary environment and his owner is not close by. So, he doesn't do it. And, what happens? His owner calls him back in, where he feels safer. Conclusion? The ring is different. There's never a reward for doing the DOR and there's never a correction for not doing it. The most logical course of action for the dog is to not do it in the ring in the future. In his mind, the owner is no more pleased or displeased because he didn't do it as if he had done it. It is up to the owner to have worked in enough different places and to have built up enough confidence that the dog will generalize to the ring. I see too many handlers (and am certainly guilty of it myself) that keep "throwing spaghetti at the wall", entering a dog who is making the same mistake over and over, in the hopes that this time, he will get it right. 

The new Fix and Go option is a real game-changer for dogs that make a mistake in the ring. Don't hesitate to use it with some caveats: You only get one chance to try to get the dog to do the right thing, so you better be pretty darn sure you can get him to do it the first time. You also need to be ready to give your reward marker at the exact point he does it right and then leave quickly and give the reward. So, for the DOR mistake, for example, if you do the FNG, you might want to give a verbal and signal for drop, maybe even with a step toward the dog, and as soon as the elbows touch the ground, give the reward marker ("YES!!!"), get the leash, and trot to your setup, praising all the way, and rewarding with a good treat.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm headed out in a minute but did want to respond to this thread. Haven't read all the posts yet. Dogs are not dumb. They are not easily fooled, and they learn to do what works. Hiding food or surprising them randomly with rewards might work a time or two but they VERY QUICKLY learn that IN THE RING you never, ever get food. So why bother.
I find most trainers expect far too little performance out of their dogs in training, for far too much reward. Flip that. More work for less award. Make training harder than what is expected in the ring. 
I never "wean" off food or treats in training....just my dogs are expected to do WAY MORE to get that reward than I will ever ask for in the ring. So the paltry amount of tricks I ask for in the obedience ring, they aren't expecting a big treat and they aren't let down when it doesn't arrive after every finish.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Just wanted to say I am so happy you brought this topic up. Since it's cold, snowy, muddy, and miserable here this winter I put Cruz in Rally class. He's been primarily hunt training for SH so bringing him back indoors has been different. He's done really well, but there are no treats in hunt training. The first night of class I didn't bring any treats. It's Rally Novice, right??? Well the rally class I'm in is all levels. It's great, we got to go right into some advanced stuff. I realized immediately when I went to do a halt, down, walk around, that a treat would have been really nice. The second week I brought treats, but I'm trying to use them very sparingly. We've been working on the stand stay and me walking away. Last week he did it beautifully but when he was called to me to finish was clearly expecting a treat. Cruz has been trained that if I stop moving he sits. The standing had to be reviewed. I've been struggling with how much and when to treat. It's my first time ever in Rally so just learning the signs feels like enough. lol Tonight is class number 3 and I think I'll leave the treats outside the ring and treat when we get done our run through. That may be better for us personally. I just hadn't given it a thought.

PS - The beep, beep, beep for backing up is great. The first night at class someone said back, back, back. To Cruz that means he's being sent on a blind retrieve. (I thought oh Lord!!! I can't say back) I've just been using heel and having him move with me.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I've just been using heel and having him move with me.


IMO you are doing it correctly. Heel means the same thing no matter which direction you’re going.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

SRW said:


> IMO you are doing it correctly. Heel means the same thing no matter which direction you’re going.


Thank you. You should have seen Cruz when she started saying "Back, Back, Back". I thought oh crap we can't do this class. It's actually been good for him though. We are still hunt training everyday. (that we can)


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> It's actually been good for him though.


Very good I’m sure. I always try to work on obedience training separate from field training.
Never good to work on too many things at once.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

K9-Design said:


> Hiding food or surprising them randomly with rewards might work a time or two but they VERY QUICKLY learn that IN THE RING you never, ever get food. So why bother.


But... in the ring they also quickly learn you can't _correct _them (and so again, they may choose not to perform - or as my dog did when I used to use compulsion training, they just completely deflate in the OB ring and turn in a lack luster performance at best). If you follow the protocol of making the rewards unpredictable and intermittent, it SHOULD actually proof and support the durability of the behavior (I learned that in Psych classes in college training pigeons and rats - It's "Learning Theory 101" - intermittent reinforcement produces the most durable behaviors). When you train your dog, the reward may appear at any moment. If you use Cookie Jar games, the reward is right there in the ring with you (the dog just needs your cooperation to access it). Moving the jar outside the ring is easily transferred to trial venues by leaving the "cookie jar" back at the crate or at some reasonable location outside the ring. As long as this has been practiced in training situations, it actually transfers pretty well to a trial situation as well.

I went looking for a good article on Julie Daniel's "Cookie Jar Games" to illustrate this concept and found that there's a lot on line if anyone wants to read up on it, but while I was looking I came across another really interesting article. The author does discuss Cookie Jar games toward the end of the article, but I found a lot of interesting information throughout the article, so I encourage people to read it in its entirety: My training methods


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One of the people I train with has a "are you ready" exercise she does with all her students as the step BEFORE you start entering trials. 

She puts us through a heeling exercise and has us count up the number of times that we do something (reward or correction). Ideally the number should be zero. What many of us find is that we get addicted to communicating in some way with our dogs and sometimes what we do might be subconscious - which is why having somebody watching and calling you out for something you're doing may help while preparing for trials.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

It seems like the troubles and worries over treats for training are endless. Just my observation, I have no first-hand experience with it.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

SRW said:


> It seems like the troubles and worries over treats for training are endless.


I think there are troubles any time anyone tries something new. And using treats in training is a very new idea for a lot of people.

I have no experience using toys in my training), but Eden loves her bumper and loves retrieving. I'm having trouble with the timing and frequency of using a toy. It's never a bad thing to struggle when learning something.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

aesthetic said:


> I'm having trouble with the timing and frequency of using a toy.


I always have a "good boy" or "good girl" loaded in the chamber and can fire it from a considerable distance exactly when it is earned.


aesthetic said:


> It's never a bad thing to struggle when learning something.


I've seen plenty of people struggle with various aspects of dog training because they keep doing things that don't work.


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