# Understanding breeding practices using k9data.com



## TheZ's

I saw your question over in the thread on understanding pedigrees. If you read through that thread carefully you'll get some answers. There are also specific dogs mentioned which you can look at with k9data.com. If you use the search function here on GRF you'll find some other threads discussing inbreeding, linebreeding and outcrosses.

For k9data.com you need the AKC registered name of the dog. Put it in the search box and you'll get a page with info on that dog including a 3 generation pedigree. At the bottom of the page there are options for further info on that dog including a 5 generation pedigree.

I was just reading a thread about a new Field Champion,Topbrass Linekin's Riptide. If you put that name in k9data.com you'll find a pedigree with AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS appearing multiple times in the 5th generation. As I understand it, this would indicate that Topbrass Linekin's Riptide was linebred on Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil. Hope some of the experts will correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Eowyn

> What would the difference in a dog's pedigree look like on k9data.com if the lineage involves linebreeding versus inbreeding versus outcrossing?


I typically check the COI first (listed under genetic information). That will give you a general idea of how inbred/line bred a dog is, and who they are line bred on. I then start going over the pedigree starting with the parents, then grandparents etc. looking for any name repeats. My rule of thumb is name repeats within 3 generations are unacceptable and multiple name repeats in the 4th gen are also unacceptable. I frown upon a dog being present twice in a 4 gen pedigree, but if they still have a low COI I might be ok with it.

I really pay attention to how closely the parents are related too each other, and put as much weight on that as how inbred the individual parents are themselves. For example: say I have a bitch from Nautilus breeding, let's use Blaire for the example (http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=481362). Blaire's parents were half siblings and she has a COI of around 28 (unfortunately k9data is not working at the moment so I am doing this off of memory). Let's say I want to breed her to Malagold's Tanqueray who if I remember correctly has a COI of 11 something. Both goldens have no common ancestors in 5 generations, but Blaire has a very high COI to begin with. Bred together (now I am guessing on this) they would probably have puppies with a COI of around 12. Does this make sense? Just because one (or both) of the parents is inbred, does not mean that the puppies will have a high COI. But you also may have a breeding where the parents aren't closely related in 3 generations or so, but if you go back 4, 5, 6+ generations it's all the same dogs in both pedigrees you may still end up with a high COI.


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## Prettyriver

Not quite, say you had a dog with a COI of 96 bred from father daughter breeding for 15 generations and a bitch with a COI of 90 as she is from only 8 generations of direct line breeding starting with unrelated dogs. If you breed them, the puppies will have COI's of nearly zero. since they do not share ancestors. There is a huge amount more compexity to this since all Goldens come from a very few foundation dogs. If you could calculate COI's going all the way back, all Goldens are have high COI's. However, for practical purposes, the 10 and 12 generation COI's are more useful than complete ones would be.


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## Swampcollie

Well here are some examples of each.

Inbreeding:

Am. CH Goldwing True Bear OS SDHF
Pedigree: Am. CH Goldwing True Bear OS SDHF

Note in the pedigree the the grandfather on both sides is the same dog. The grandmothers are in fact littermates. The great grandparents on both sides are the same dogs. 

Linebreeding:

AFC Topbrass Comet OD FDHF
Pedigree: AFC Topbrass Comet OD FDHF

Note in the pedigree that there are common ancestors on both sides of the pedigree but they are further removed. So their appearance in the pedigree is often generationaly stepped from one side to the other. (This would be considered "tight" linebreeding.


Outcross Breeding

Thistlerocks Jacobian Brass MH WCX ***
Pedigree: Thistlerocks Jacobian Brass MH WCX ***

Note that the ancestors from one side of the pedigree are different from the other side of the pedigree, until you get back to the North American foundation dogs. 


Each type of breeding plan has its benefits and liabilities. Inbreeding can quickly give you greatness or failure. Outcrosses give you a lot of variety in a litter with little consistency from pup to pup. Linebreeding gives good consistency in a litter while limiting the opportunity for bad.


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## HiTideGoldens

I am on the same page as Swampcollie. To me it's not as easy as having rules regarding the number of times a dog appears in a pedigree. Certainly at some point it is too much, but I have very different thoughts if a pedigree is tightly linebred on a dog or bitch who was known to be healthy, sound (physically and mentally), long lived and produced the same in their offspring, as compared to a dog or bitch who was not known for those same things. Outcrosses are not always better. The more I learn about pedigrees and breeding the more I realize there are very few "rules" that apply across the board and a lot more gray area than I ever thought possible. 

On a side note, I have never seen a dog with a COI even approaching the nineties. I think the low forties is the highest I've seen. Prettyriver what pedigrees are you looking at? 


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## HiTideGoldens

Also, I find genetic influence tables to be much more helpful than the COI on k9data when evaluating pedigrees. You can see exactly how many times a dog appears in the pedigree and in what generation(s). When I have seriously considered a puppy or pedigree I have had one run so I have all the information. 


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## Tahnee GR

I agree-COI is a point of useful information, but I much prefer genetic influence tables. I don't do a breeding without running one. Before I can say if a COI is "bad" or "good", I need to know the dogs involved.

This was an accidental breeding, which produced 9 very healthy puppies, who lived for the most part 10+ years

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=462821

This is one of the highest COI's I have seen (son to mother)

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=6255


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## michigander

Thank you all for the examples -- I'm a visual person so it really helped seeing them and knowing I was understanding what I saw!


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## TheZ's

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Also, I find genetic influence tables to be much more helpful than the COI on k9data when evaluating pedigrees. You can see exactly how many times a dog appears in the pedigree and in what generation(s). When I have seriously considered a puppy or pedigree I have had one run so I have all the information.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


For those of us trying to learn about this subject, what is a genetic influence table and how is it obtained?


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## Tahnee GR

Attached is the genetic influence table for my litter born 5/11/2013.

I had a program that would calculate this for me, and I had entered thousands of dogs but unfortunately I lost access to it when my computer crashed  It was called Man's Best Friend but I don't even know if it is still around. There are other programs that will do the same thing but of course you have to enter all the dogs yourself first. I tried downloading information from a public database but it was a mess and had a lot of errors.

Now, I have them done by a fellow breeder, Linda Bell, of Sorrento Goldens in Oregon (full disclosure-she has a girl from this litter)

The percentage on the left by the dogs name is how much the dog contributed in terms of genetic influence (theoretically speaking). So, typically the parents will each contribute 50%, grandparents 25%, etc. In linebred and inbred dogs, these numbers will be greater. The numbers in parentheses show on which side of the pedigree the dog appears, how many times in which generation. You can kind of see all of the line and in breeding that went on in the 70's and even early 80's when you look at how many times certain dogs appear.

Sammy has been dead for over 30 years but he (and Sunset's Happy Duke) have more genetic influence than the grandparents of the puppies  Not thrilling to me, but hard (not impossible) to get away from this influence. Other pedigrees see the same thing with Charlie.

It also lists the COI for 18 generations, not the more typical 10 and 12.


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## sandyhp

And Linda's (Tahnee Golden Retrievers) attached genetic influence table is exactly the reason I leave the breeding up to the experts.


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## sterregold

I too find the GI table more useful than raw COI or just looking at number of times a dog appears. Some dogs I am fine with seeing 4 times in five generations. Others I do not want to see more than once. The issues that the dog carries, and how prevalent they seem to be in offspring, plus the DNA tools we now have for some of those issues are going to have an influence on how much of a certain dog I will be willing to accept...


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