# OK getting desperate here...



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

It sounds like he has anxiety about the people and dogs passing....he's wanting them to go away or come closer and he's getting more frustrated and more reactive as time goes on.

I do not think an ecollar is the route to go....it won't make him feel better about other dogs/people, it may just stop the outburst. And if you have enough stressors build up, someday it could be too much and cause a bite.

Have you considered consulting a professional?

In the meantime, I would do everything in your power to prevent the undesirable behavior from occuring. 
- Take him out on leash, by himself.
- Stay further from the street
- Go out at times where you're less likely to be seeing people
- Start feeding him REALLY good treats as fast as possible while moving to the house if you do end up seeing people/dogs.
- Block off windows/doors so he can't be barking out of those.

Every time he practices the behavior...he becomes better at it, more proficient, and it's more likely a coping tool he'll use. We want to NOT let him practice it.

And while that's going on, we can do training to change how he feels about people/dogs, teach him to relax around those scenarios. Teach him better ways of responding, in specific sessions, working on one piece at a time.

Due to the level of behavior you're seeing, it would be best if you consulted with a competent professional.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> so partially our fault for not training as much as we should


There is really no substitute for training and getting reliable responses to it. An ecollar should only be used to reinforce known commands. You can use an ecollar to make the fence a HOT SPOT. But that limits the real effectiveness of using a collar. Dog need to understand what he is being corrected for.

If you are out there all the time and you see someone coming. Start a mini OB lesson,sit and here etc. Distraction from people walking by. With Missy I tell her to sit and let them walk by, if she is close to the sidewalk I call her in and sit her and let her watch them walk by. After they pass lot's of praise.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

He does know the command down. He is only reliable without any distractions. I used treats when outside and when I saw someone coming, started the down lesson again, and it does not work. No treat will stop him from going crazy. I honestly think he wants to get closer, not hurt them at all. But the drive is too high and nothing I have will get him to stop. i have to literally grab hold of him and even that is a stuggle at 60 lbs. I understand that there is no substitute for training, but taking him outside with a halter and leash is the only way to stop him at this point without physically handling him and worrying he will jump over the fence. My point is...there is NO TREAT in the world that will get him to stay when he wants to go.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> He does know the command down. He is only reliable without any distractions. I used treats when outside and when I saw someone coming, started the down lesson again, and it does not work. No treat will stop him from going crazy. I honestly think he wants to get closer, not hurt them at all. But the drive is too high and nothing I have will get him to stop. i have to literally grab hold of him and even that is a stuggle at 60 lbs. I understand that there is no substitute for training, but taking him outside with a halter and leash is the only way to stop him at this point without physically handling him and worrying he will jump over the fence. My point is...there is NO TREAT in the world that will get him to stay when he wants to go.


An ecollar could work if he knows "down" that well. But remember you have to collar condition him first. Before the situation arises. I agree with you he probably just sees somebody to go play with. If you buy a cheap collar you will get you pay for. Shop for a Dogtra or Tritronics, Collar clinic online has refurbished collars that you can get more "collar" than what you would pay for new. I think it would work in this situation if you use it correctly. How much are you looking to pay for a collar?? Just curious.
My mother had a similar situation with her GSD and she uses a collar with her dog but after a short, sometimes very short time all she has to do is put the collar on her neck.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

1) His excitement level is high enough you really need additional help
2) Practice his response to various cues (it's NOT about the fence, it's about his enthusiasm for the people) when no one is likely to be passing. After he responds, pull VERY good food out of your pocket. Feed each response.
3) Use management as listed above.... we don't want him to practice the behavior.
4) Get a close family member or friend to help you. Have that person stand in the yard with you while you get a few responses to basic cues. If that goes well, have the person stand just outside the gate. Repeat this a lot. When he's very good he'll be ready for the next step....post back and we'll help you.

Due to the safety issues involved, I would get help. Adding an ecollar could increase his frustration/anxiety and that is not what you want. We want to decrease frustration/anxiety. The more he practices the behavior, the worse he will get.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

OK...I will cut up some chicken we have bbqing right now and put aside for training, that will be a higher value for him. Should I work on all commands, comer here, sit, stay and down, or should I just focus on down? I'll have to get a friend to help me today since hubby is busy with bbqing. I have alittle free time now, I'll start right away when my daughter gets here.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

It's up to you. I'd go with whatever ones you think he can do best....the rule of thumb we use is to only ask for something if you are willing to bet $100 your dog will do it....if you aren't that confident, don't ask.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

One thing that works really well for me, and I'm by no means an expert, is to break the focus often enough to break the habit. If you can break the focus before the behavior begins, that's even better. Don't let your dog practice negative behavior. That's tricky though, you gotta be right there sometimes, and completely focused yourself.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I worked with Boone by himself and his focus was right on em the whole time. He sat and stayed, I even got to take a few steps away from him and wait then call him to get the treat. He really does well by himself. People walked by (only a few) and nothing high excitement, so he was able to maintain focus on treats. AFter 10 minutes or so my daughter cam out with me and we continued for another few minutes, using my daughter as the distracter. He did moderately well. I could tell he was getting close to the end of his session, and other dogs then came out. Of course, this is when the high excitement came past. A group of teenagers with a basketball. He did better than usual. He did go over to the corner of the fence he usally runs to, but I was able to get him to come here relatively quickly, although the teenagers had already gone past. Normally, he continues to bark like crazy til they are out of eyesight, so this was an improvement. I need to work with him alone however, since I noticced that Lucyis definitely getting him riled up, not necessarily the other way around. She runs to the gate and barks, but its not as incessant as Boone. Boone takes Lucy's lead and brings it to the next level. Jax is less interested as long as he has my attention. I think I will have to work with Lucy as well. Her sit is good, but her stay is awful. Boone was doing better than she was in this department. I will commit to working with them at least 3 times a week, more if I can, separately. Then try it together after a few weeks. I'm glad I tired this today since it really did get me to see he can listen with minor excitement distractions, so I can work toward the major ones with time. It was hot as Heck out there today...hoping it cools off this week so the training wont be as difficult for me and the dogs. Thanks for all the advice...I am putting the e-collar on hold for now and see how this goes.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Jax's Mom*

Jax's Mom

I hope Boone learns soon-I admire your dedication to fix this.


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## Summer's Mom (Oct 20, 2010)

That sounds great!! Glad you saw some changes already  Good luck!! 

Sorry to nag, but don't forget when you can't be training, probably best to keep him on leash and prevent any further "episodes" so he doesn't get to practice the behaviour but only the good alternative 



Jax's Mom said:


> I worked with Boone by himself and his focus was right on em the whole time. He sat and stayed, I even got to take a few steps away from him and wait then call him to get the treat. He really does well by himself. People walked by (only a few) and nothing high excitement, so he was able to maintain focus on treats. AFter 10 minutes or so my daughter cam out with me and we continued for another few minutes, using my daughter as the distracter. He did moderately well. I could tell he was getting close to the end of his session, and other dogs then came out. Of course, this is when the high excitement came past. A group of teenagers with a basketball. He did better than usual. He did go over to the corner of the fence he usally runs to, but I was able to get him to come here relatively quickly, although the teenagers had already gone past. Normally, he continues to bark like crazy til they are out of eyesight, so this was an improvement. I need to work with him alone however, since I noticced that Lucyis definitely getting him riled up, not necessarily the other way around. She runs to the gate and barks, but its not as incessant as Boone. Boone takes Lucy's lead and brings it to the next level. Jax is less interested as long as he has my attention. I think I will have to work with Lucy as well. Her sit is good, but her stay is awful. Boone was doing better than she was in this department. I will commit to working with them at least 3 times a week, more if I can, separately. Then try it together after a few weeks. I'm glad I tired this today since it really did get me to see he can listen with minor excitement distractions, so I can work toward the major ones with time. It was hot as Heck out there today...hoping it cools off this week so the training wont be as difficult for me and the dogs. Thanks for all the advice...I am putting the e-collar on hold for now and see how this goes.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like you are on the right path that is wonderful. It really doesn't take that long to change some behavior if we are willing to put forth the effort. I might add that once you get him listening to you well you really should take him to different places and work on the commands there so you are getting a dog that will listen to any place any time under any circumstances.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'd work on "sit," not down, simply because lying down is so counterintuitive to a dog who's nervous or excited.

And you have to stop any fence running right now by using a leash or other management. Each time he does it is ten more times you'll have to condition the desired response. He already has a strong habit based in instinct (territoriality), so you're working uphill as it is.

I would not suggest just buying an e-collar and shocking him each time he does an undesired thing. You're just liable to make him much more nervous and upset about seeing people.

Work in the yard at night when nobody's around and train a solid habit of obedience. Never put that habit up against a distraction it will lose to or you'll undermine the habit. Each failed "sit" is ten successful "sits" you'll have to do to make up for it.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Day 2....I was able to get 15 minutes of training in today but unfortunately there were really NO DISTRACTORS at all. He sits well, gets down off fence quickly, stay is a work in progress. I will try again tonight when its cooler out front. I also put a call in to a trainer friend of mine. She is not a behaviorist, but it is what my pocket can afford right now. I am waiting for an email back to see what days are good for her, and I hope to get at least 1 session a week from her for a few weeks. Hopefully, she will show me how to work with him and I can carry over. Also, poster who mentioned changing where to train...I think that a terrific idea. Since it's so hot, I may just start by doing some training in the house as well. Hopefully by the end of the week it will cool down a bit and we can move out to the backyard. The front yard has easier access and is a busier area.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

tippykayak...thanks for the input. Could you suggest what commands to work on? I am already working on sit and come here. Stay is more difficult but we are working toward a longer stay with me walking away. How do I get him to make the stays longer? should I be walking away with the satys? how far?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Jax's Mom said:


> tippykayak...thanks for the input. Could you suggest what commands to work on? I am already working on sit and come here. Stay is more difficult but we are working toward a longer stay with me walking away. How do I get him to make the stays longer? should I be walking away with the satys? how far?


Stay is something you should first develop in a zero distraction area, and you should practice it every time you have to open a door for the dog. He stays, you open the door, and he goes through it when you say the release word. If he breaks the stay, you shut the door before he goes through it—be careful not to crack him in the head—and try again.

Build with baby steps. You want to be totally successful between command, behavior, and reward each time. If you walk away too far and he breaks, you've set yourself back a step. You want to introduce distractions the same way: work with levels that allow you to be 100% successful before moving up to more difficult distractions.

Maybe on day one you just work in the house with him right in front of you. Practice "stay," taking a step away, then coming back and rewarding if he doesn't move at all. Next day, build from one step to five steps. Next day try him outside at a low distraction time, but be right there so you can grab his collar if he breaks the stay. I like working like this because it teaches him to look to you for direction.

I'd work on sit, stay, and recall if it were my dog. With recall in particular, do not call the dog in a situation that you might be ignored. Each blown recall confirms that habit of blowing you off.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks...I will keep that in mind tomorrow when I work with him again.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

If you're thinking of getting an Ecollar so that you can press the button when he jumps on the fence, I'd suggest that you not do this. You can make the problem worse if this is all you do. 

Instead I suggest that you get a quality Ecollar, the least expensive that I'd recommend is about $200, and then read this article http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-training/94724-teaching-recall-ecollar.html and then follow it back to the full article. If you teach the recall and the sit with these methods, there's a good chance that your problem will simply disappear. If not, at least you'll have the control necessary to call your dog away from the fence.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Put a door mat down in the yard. Sit him on it. If he moves put him back on it with "SIT". Leave him there walk around make distractions. If he moves, put him back on it with a treat. If that doesn't work use a correction. Don't call him to you when you release at first, go back to him to release.
I would emphasize more on remote sit and make it solid than recall right now because if you get the sit the recall will easier. Even if it isn't you can go to him.
My .02


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Rather than an e-collar, have you thought about an invisible fence buried around the fence line? Our friends had one installed because one of their dogs kept digging out. Boone would learn to not get near enough to the fence to jump it if the IF was install a foot or so inside your existing fence.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

A invis. fence won't keep other dogs or people from coming in and once your dog runs out then he is afraid to come back in. I have a very poor opinion of invisible fence.

Please get the privacy fence up ASAP and continue to work with them. That's what we had to do with Gunner. Use a halter and leash till then.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I have a fence, so dogs and people cannot come in, but I thought the invisible fence does the same thing an e collar would do...give a shock when he gets too close. WOuldnt it be the same then? Also, if I get a privacy fence, where no one can look in or they cant look out, I think it will make things more appealing for them to jump. It is a small area being fenced, so I cannot put up a 6 foot fence, I plan on getting a 5 foot fence, but I dont have the funds to put it up right this minute. We may have to wait another month or so. I have been working with Boone, but it really is slow going and I need to literally stand guard at the fence so he doesnt jump up. Come here is wokring much better with low level excitement, but there is no stopping him when a dog or noisy people walk right in front of the gate.


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