# At my wit's end



## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Hello,

I've posted before in the past about my golden but it's been some time - I probably haven't posted since our boy was about a year old over concerns about his hyperactivity, destructiveness, and aggressive behaviors. He is now 19 months old.

First off let me start by saying that I love my pup. When he was 6 months he started resource guarding (would bite), jump all over people and would be relentless with the mouthing - different than typical puppy behavior and just would not calm down! This behavior got worse when he was around 1-year old. The training we took him to the first time around didn't help him - just basically said good luck and that our dog wasn't trainable. We took him to another trainer that used collar correction. Within a month we saw substantial improvement in his behavior and graduated as the most improved dog in the class. I was an extremely proud fur mom as you can imagine. We decided to take a break from the training (going back in the fall) because he was scheduled to be neutered and we had some vacation planned before / after that. 

Leading up to the neutering he was doing well. He has always had difficulty on walks when he sees other dogs and getting too hyper when he sees certain people, especially when they come into our house but not when visiting. 

His procedure went fine but he developed an infection shortly after. He is on antibiotics and thank goodness the incision area is almost healed. The issue is he seems to be exhibiting past behaviors suddenly. He is constantly stealing toys again, jumping all over people including a friend of mine who was carrying an infant in her arms. He's also started rolling around in the grass in the middle of a walk then grab the leash and start pulling it or barking at me. He's been so misbehaved that when our sitter comes over to watch my toddler son (she brings her child also) I have to bring him upstairs with me while I work and shut the door. He seems to get frustrated that he's stuck in the room with me because he'll come over, stare at me won't break eye contact jumps up and starts nipping at my hands / face. He'll eventually try to find something to rip up which I'll try and get from him and will of course stiffen up because he doesn't ant me taking it away. After saying out a few times unsuccessfully it will work and he'll come over to me and lie down. He usually gives it up and lies down for a nap not too long afterward.

I take him for 1.5 - 2 hour walks per day, I work on training with him, I give him hours of my love and attention. On days when I have 'more time' I take him dock diving. I also play with him at home. He is certainly not deprived of any attention or any love of any kind.

However I am becoming exhausted with his acting out. I don't understand why all of a sudden he seems to have regressed...any ideas? Could the neutering have made it worse?? Could it be because of the infection?? 

He was neutered 2 weeks ago. Everyone said he should be the same, if not better. Is it possible he's getting worse? 

Thanks for any help and sorry for the long message.

EDIT: I should also mention we got him from a very reputable breeder. None of the other dogs in the litter have exhibited any of the issues he has as we keep in touch with many of the owners and the breeder. He was the only one with resource guarding issues. He was part of a litter of 12 and was one of the smaller ones so I don't know if that explains some of his behaviors.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Sounds like he needs a job. It would help to know the breeder and what this person is breeding for... conformation? performance? hunting? This would help to understand the DNA background about his personality.

I'm not sure what you were expecting from having him neutered as this generally doesn't help much. From your post it sounds like you have taken him to trainers vs doing the training yourself. Did I understand this part? Any trainer that says your golden is untrainable is not what I would call a good trainer and hope the new one was better. If this is the case, the dog learns to work for or become a team with the trainer and doesn't know how to work for you. 

See if you can find a training facility that offers group classes. The trainers need to also compete with their dogs. Having a cashier from Petsmart/Petco teach a class is a total waste of time and money. You need to learn how to train your own dog and become a team and for this you are going to need to get involved.

These issues are not going to go away in just a few lessons. This is something you will need to work on daily but sounds like you need some help to do it correctly. Maybe you could find a group that trains for agility if obedience doesn't interest you? Give this dog a purpose and a positive way to use all that wonderful energy. Walks are boring and provide very little in draining energy and nothing for mental stimulation. You must remember this dog (any golden) is bred to run in the fields for many hours and a dog bred to hunt is going to be even stronger stamina.

Get some help and give him a job. Look at it this way, your kids go to school after we as parents teach them the basics... they go to school 12 yrs and some go longer. Training your dog, especially one with a higher energy level needs the same dedication towards their education.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> Sounds like he needs a job. It would help to know the breeder and what this person is breeding for... conformation? performance? hunting? This would help to understand the DNA background about his personality.
> 
> I'm not sure what you were expecting from having him neutered as this generally doesn't help much. From your post it sounds like you have taken him to trainers vs doing the training yourself. Did I understand this part? Any trainer that says your golden is untrainable is not what I would call a good trainer and hope the new one was better. If this is the case, the dog learns to work for or become a team with the trainer and doesn't know how to work for you.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your response. The breeder is in Canada and breeds puppies for the purpose of them being part of a household. I do know that her own dogs enjoy hunting and agility but most of the dogs that are family 'pets' do not participate in these activities. I do know that some of the dogs in the litter were quite hyper which was perhaps unexpected by our breeder. I prefer not to say who the breeder is but they are registered, long standing and only breed 1x per year with different dogs - perhaps less. They have long wait lists and are stay very involved with the owners.

As for the training, we do not do petsmart style training. Our trainer is a no nonsense well respected trainer who deals with more 'difficult' animals. He typically takes on dogs that have bit their owners, are subject to euthanasia if not helped, etc. He uses collar correction (prong collar) and we would see him 1x a week. Our dog has been seeing him for over 6 months and we will continue to do so for years. All we did was take a summer break (from the middle of July to now) but continued with his teaching and suggestions at home. His behavior has only changed suddenly and the neutering is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point. He has come a very long way with his training - it is not something we are making up as we go along and have committed to training him as long as we can since he is a resource guarder. I do not ever want to worry about him biting anyone else.

I did not expect drastic changes with the neutering. In fact, I was anticipating that there likely would be no change. The question I posed was really to see whether the neutering may have impacted his hormones to cause this 'regression'. Or, if perhaps the infection could impact his behaviors. 

Lastly, in terms of a job I'm not really quite sure what to do there. I don't have an open field near me where he can run. I have a young child at home so the walks are really all I can do, unless I run with him. But, I work on his training while on walks so the runs aren't really an option at this point. I thought long walks were good so long as you were providing some mental stimulation throughout the day. 

Do others do much more than me in terms of keeping their golden 'entertained'? I mean, 1.5-2hour walks plus training in the home (plus 1x a week starting up again in the fall), and then dock diving when possible. I also play with him several times a day. I have a young child at home and work so there really isn't much more that I can do other than drop him off at a doggy daycare. I have thought of agility but to be honest I've been told he's too hyper to do the classes with other dogs.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Hi there and welcome back! 

I'm sorry you're dealing with these problems. I empathize so much. It sounds like there are a lot of impulse control issues going on. You might want to read the following books. They might help with training. 
For resource guarding - https://www.amazon.com/Mine-Practical-Guide-Resource-Guarding/dp/0970562942
For leash reactivity, jumping, lunging, tantrums, etc - https://www.amazon.com/Control-Unleashed-Creating-Focused-Confident/dp/B000UCF53A

It's a processes. I know you don't want to hear that. Especially after you started seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. It's there. It just takes a while to get there. 

The neutering shouldn't have caused any personality changes but typically dogs are 'laid up' for 2 weeks until stitches come out. Since your boy had to fight off an infection, I imagine he was laid up with restricted activity for more than 2 weeks. A high energy dog with no outlet (or a reduced outlet) can easily boil over. If he is fit and healthy (cleared by the vet) I'd recommend exchanging those 2 hour walks for a more vigorous activity something that will get his heart rate up and his tongue out. 

My bridge boy was leash reactive, I would routinely have to play fetch for 30-60 minutes before taking him out for a walk so he had expended *enough* energy to let the training take hold. We had to go back to basics on everything and that was from when he was about 2 years old. He re-took basic obedience THREE (3!) times before I thought we were solid enough to move to intermediate. That was on top of his puppy class, and with two different places (and three different trainers). I tried every leash, harness, collar imaginable. Halti, easy walk, regular harness, flat buckle collar, slip chain, etc. We were practicing walking down our DRIVE WAY. But that out of control teenager went on to get his CGC title at 3 years old and was on his way to an RN (Rally Novice) title when we pulled him for a chronic illness that needed to be addressed. 

There is another member here who has a dog, Tayla, that was a handful. She worked through those issues and now Tayla is a superior barnhunter. Let me see if I can find those threads... She has a lot of posts but you can browse her posts here to see if you find any that help: https://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/members/22118-tayla-s-mom.html

To sum up, be consistent. KNOW what you want to ask and how you want to ask it before you get into the situation (This is the hardest part for me). Find an obedience club and become a member. Take all the classes. Don't get discouraged; we've all felt like failures at some point in training so if you ever reach that point you're not alone.


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## swishywagga (Nov 13, 2012)

Member Joan Hamilton, I've moved your post into a thread of its own :- https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...iscussion/502378-resource-guarding-issue.html


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Brave said:


> Hi there and welcome back!
> 
> I'm sorry you're dealing with these problems. I empathize so much. It sounds like there are a lot of impulse control issues going on. You might want to read the following books. They might help with training.
> For resource guarding - https://www.amazon.com/Mine-Practical-Guide-Resource-Guarding/dp/0970562942
> ...


Thank you so much for your encouraging message. I really appreciated you taking the time to respond and for your encouraging note. Your bridge boy sounded like he was definitely not easy in the beginning but turned out to be such a wonderful pup. Some days it feels like I am the only one in his corner, that I'm always making excuses for his bad behavior with my husband. I absolutely adore my pup and it's so hard when I feel like I'm failing him. 

I guess part of me was really hoping it was the neutering causing his hormones to go wonky. He is stealing my sons toys like its nobody's business whenever he feels like I'm not paying attention to him. Yesterday, I left to go to the store for 20 minutes and our sitter was upstairs with my son and her daughter (door closed). Anyway, in that 20 minutes he went into my sitters diaper bag and I came home to dirty diapers ripped to shreds all over our carpet. As you can imagine, I was not happy but also did wonder a little to myself why the diapers were not put in the bin we use for our son but that's for another time! He has never ripped up anything when I leave the home. We have always been able to leave him by himself without ripping anything up since he was about 10 months old.

To be honest, I think I'm the problem. 

I've noticed that anytime I'm around he gets really hyper around our sitter and her baby. If I leave, he relaxes. If I start paying a lot of attention to my son, he will run to find the nearest thing he shouldn't have. 

I'm debating whether we go back to square one which was wearing his prong collar and leash when our sitter arrives, keep him upstairs with me unless for walks or training, and then prong collar back on until the sitter leaves. This used to be a much easier feat when my son was an infant - much harder now when he's reaching for mom and I have a dog that is going wild. 

He will start training again soon. Our trainer does it outdoors in the summer for intermediate and advanced dogs combined which is just not productive for our pup. He goes nuts with the combination of other dogs/being outdoors and disrupts the rest of the class. So when he moves back indoors we'll start again. 

I'll admit I've never had a 'difficult' golden. When I tried to push him on leash this morning because he started to get too excited with my sitter he responded by jumping all over me and nipping my hands and back. It was extremely frustrating. 

I don't ever want to rehome him. He is part of my family and I love him but it makes me sad thinking he might be unhappy and anxious. Part of me doesn't understand - he has all the toys he could want, a great deal of my attention despite having an toddler (there is only so much I can do!!). I work from home so he is NEVER alone during the week. 

I should mention that his behavior is 100% better when my husband is home or if I'm able to play with him and my toddler simultaneously. And when my sitter leaves for the day, there is substantial improvement.

Sorry for the long post which is clearly all over the place. And thank you for the link about Tayla - I will definitely take a look. 

On a final note, our vet actually recommended not having him 'rest' after his neutering and walking him as much as he seemed comfortable due to his high level of activity. I did tone it down a bit when his incision area became infected because I noticed he started to roll around in the grass and biting the leash. I thought it was because he was feeling a bit off / tired. Now he has clearance which I hope will help. That said, we went on a 1-hour hike (during my work hours!) and it didn't even cause a dent in his energy levels. I'm a fit person but with him I'll never have to worry about weight gain that's for sure. 

Thank you - even for just letting me vent.


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

It definitely sounds like your boy has a lot of extra energy. Though I know it would be an added expense, is there perhaps a doggie daycare center he could go to once or twice a week? I know several other members on this forum do this and say it really helps their dogs get rid of some of that extra energy.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Our3dogs said:


> It definitely sounds like your boy has a lot of extra energy. Though I know it would be an added expense, is there perhaps a doggie daycare center he could go to once or twice a week? I know several other members on this forum do this and say it really helps their dogs get rid of some of that extra energy.


Thank you for your reply! A lot of energy doesn't even begin to describe him! 

I have thought about a doggie daycare center because he just loves other dogs. To be honest, he gets funny with certain people because he is just so jumpy and mouthy (not with everyone - just some and not everyone loves him like I do). And on top of it, I'm worried about his resource guarding. I'm scared he might bite someone, if pushed.  He hasn't bit anyone since he was 8 months - we have worked REALLY hard on that (outside of biting my husband on the foot when my husband tried to stop him from licking his incision area a week ago...I don't really count that though because he was clearly in pain). 

I thought the hiking might be good for him. We have a lot of hiking trails in our area and now that its started to cool down there are loads of areas to sniff and lots of steeper inclines since we aren't running. 

My husband thought I was nuts because for a moment I considered another dog for him to play/wrestle with to expend some of that energy!


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Boy, you really are facing a challenge! One "easy" thing you might want to eliminate from the list of causes is hypothyrodism. Although the "classic" dog with a thyroid issue gains weight easily, is lethargic and has a poor coat, there are many subtle symptoms that may be missed before the classic ones show up (assuming they ever do). These symptoms can include hyperactivity and aggression. If you decide to try to eliminate this as an explanation I would check out Jeanne Dodds testing services at Hemopet Canine Blood Bank, Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory & Greyhound Rescue, Dr. Dodds. The standard "T-4" test offered through your regular vet may not catch early hypothyroidism; the tests offered by Dr. Dodds (one of the top researchers in the country) are much more comprehensive and I have found Hemopet to be very responsive to questions. You can either have your vet prep and mail the necessary blood sample, or just have them prep it and you can mail it yourself. Her prices are pretty reasonable.

This link is to an article by Dr. Dodds that you might find interesting:
https://drjeandoddspethealthresourc...ant-behavior-thyroid-dysfunction#.W6PXhYjwaUl

Beyond that all I can suggest is that it might be time to get an assessment from a Veterinary Behaviorist or a Certified Behaviorist (i.e., not a traditional dog trainer, but someone who has really studied dog behavior and has been tested and certified somehow). They can be hard to find, but I think a Google search will bring you to a website that lists them (if I can find some links I'll try to post here for you).

I hope for your sake that this behavior does diminish somewhat as your dog's neutering takes hold or at least as he moves from adolescent to adult dog! Thanks for loving this dog with all his quirks and challenges!


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> Boy, you really are facing a challenge! One "easy" thing you might want to eliminate from the list of causes is hypothyrodism. Although the "classic" dog with a thyroid issue gains weight easily, is lethargic and has a poor coat, there are many subtle symptoms that may be missed before the classic ones show up (assuming they ever do). These symptoms can include hyperactivity and aggression. If you decide to try to eliminate this as an explanation I would check out Jeanne Dodds testing services at Hemopet Canine Blood Bank, Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory & Greyhound Rescue, Dr. Dodds. The standard "T-4" test offered through your regular vet may not catch early hypothyroidism; the tests offered by Dr. Dodds (one of the top researchers in the country) are much more comprehensive and I have found Hemopet to be very responsive to questions. You can either have your vet prep and mail the necessary blood sample, or just have them prep it and you can mail it yourself. Her prices are pretty reasonable.
> 
> This link is to an article by Dr. Dodds that you might find interesting:
> https://drjeandoddspethealthresourc...ant-behavior-thyroid-dysfunction#.W6PXhYjwaUl
> ...


Thank you so much! I didn't think of having his thyroid checked because we've always had difficulty maintaining his weight. On top of all his 'quirks' as you say, he is an incredibly picky eater. He refuses to eat kibble and didn't like raw so he's settled on The Honest Kitchen so dehydrated raw is apparently the happy medium. Go figure, my last golden was essentially a garbage can and would eat anything put in front of him. But aside from that, he doesn't seem to display the classic symptoms but I will look into it. It certainly can't hurt! Thanks for sending the details, that is really helpful. 

We actually brought a certified behaviorist into the home when our pup was 8 months old because he was getting out of hand. And, we needed help with the resource guarding. The behaviorist said he didn't feel that our pup was aggressive at all - in fact, he felt as though our dog just needed a heavy dose of training as well as some 'down' time in the crate. Unfortunately, no matter how desirable we made the crate it was like torture to him. 

The training helped substantially - he improved 100% which I was incredibly relieved about as my husband and I fought regularly about keeping him. I think my husband would have given him away a long time ago if given the chance. But, he knows better than to interfere with me and my love for goldens. 

I also want to say that as difficult as my boy can be, he is an absolute goofball who loves to play. He is affectionate and will literally fall asleep on top of me. Aside from stealing toys he has been fantastic with my toddler through tail pulls, kicks, finger in the eyeball, etc.). It's tough because I want everyone to see how sweet he really is but the 'crazy' can really mask that. 

PS - 1hr and 15 minute hike did the trick. He is out like a light but I anticipate he will find me soon enough for round 2 (we usually do 2 walks during the day and one in the evening). For now, all is quiet on the home front.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

What caused you to stop seeing the behaviorist, and what were your results with consistent (1 month or longer) R+ training? What R+ training have you done? I know those might be sensitive questions with as much work as you've put in, there's no accusation in them, just looking to avoid making redundant suggestions


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mirinde said:


> What caused you to stop seeing the behaviorist, and what were your results with consistent (1 month or longer) R+ training? What R+ training have you done? I know those might be sensitive questions with as much work as you've put in, there's no accusation in them, just looking to avoid making redundant suggestions


All good questions! The behaviorist felt we were following all of the right 'paths' and that our pups resource guarding was easily controllable. He also felt that if we were able to find a good mix of quiet time (he didn't sleep much throughout the day) and play time it could be sorted. He recognized we were in for a difficult ride if we did not train him and that it wouldn't be easy but at some point he should become much more manageable. He felt that we did not require further 'sessions' after a few home visits. 

We started positive reinforcement training at 4 months - he did not respond well (much of it was rewarding with treats) and since he isn't food driven he struggled. The trainer for that class determined at 6 months that our dog was 'untrainable'). We pulled him out of that training as it wasn't helping his behaviors. He resource guarded the first day we brought him home (my heart dog's leash that I had left out) and had extreme mouthing issues. So, even though he learned 'sit', 'stay', etc. it did not help him. The behaviorist came in at 8 months after our pup bit me (which has not happened since). 

The next 2 months we worked on the behaviorists suggestions and spend a significant amount of time researching a trainer. 

January of 2018 he started collar correction training 1x per week. Reinforcing training at home during walks, and in the home so in total (~1 hour per day if not more depending on walk time). He was acknowledged by the instructor in his beginner class among dobermans, rottweilers, german sheperds and other as the 'hardest to train' and 'incredibly strong' - pointing at me saying he's not sure how on earth I walked him. Training paid off and he was 'most improved' in April. Moved on to intermediate in May and training continued through July 1x per week, but outdoors. He struggled with the outdoor classes and to be honest we are more concerned about his behavior in the home. Kept up with the training on walks and in the home but probably let up a bit due to him being neutered. We also gave up the prong collar for walks because he would walk well and do all of his training commands without it. 

The training is collar correction using a prong collar but with lots of praise throughout. The trainer did suggest an ecollar for our boy but I hesitated a bit. 

Does that help?

I should say we were really diligent with his collar correction training. My husband basically said if he didn't improve we were giving him up so I was desperate


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Golden_mama66 said:


> All good questions! The behaviorist felt we were following all of the right 'paths' and that our pups resource guarding was easily controllable. He also felt that if we were able to find a good mix of quiet time (he didn't sleep much throughout the day) and play time it could be sorted. He recognized we were in for a difficult ride if we did not train him and that it wouldn't be easy but at some point he should become much more manageable. He felt that we did not require further 'sessions' after a few home visits.
> 
> We started positive reinforcement training at 4 months - he did not respond well (much of it was rewarding with treats) and since he isn't food driven he struggled. The trainer for that class determined at 6 months that our dog was 'untrainable'). We pulled him out of that training as it wasn't helping his behaviors. He resource guarded the first day we brought him home (my heart dog's leash that I had left out) and had extreme mouthing issues. So, even though he learned 'sit', 'stay', etc. it did not help him. The behaviorist came in at 8 months after our pup bit me (which has not happened since).
> 
> ...


Yeah, that absolutely helps! Thank you! 

So, as an outsider that is not in your shoes, my thought is that the prong collar and associated training methods are probably causing your kiddo to behave in an inhibited way, rather than that he's really internalized the training. Seeing this sort of regression after months of training, to me, indicates that the training was ineffective at changing the underlying emotional condition of the dog. In other words, he's learning to not display his "bad" behavior, but not learning how to change the emotional state fueling that "bad" behavior. This is super common when using these training techniques. It's not so much that they are ineffective, it's that inhibition is not always what you want/isn't always enough. 

I'm not so much bothered by the use of the prong collar -- I _am_ bothered by the fact that your current trainer seems to be of the "different breeds need different training" philosophy. There is currently no evidence supporting the idea that learning is breed, _or_ species specific when controlling for cognitive capacity. Even aggressive, massive marine mammals can be successfully trained using aversive free methods. When trainers support this philosophy or pride themselves on handling "aggressive animals", I tend to be concerned that they are not actually well educated on learning sciences in terms of longevity of success and holistic health of the animal. You may find that this is not the case with your trainer, but it is something to consider. 

I have a _really_ complicated dog, myself. He began resource guarding severely at ~3-4 months, we were unable to complete group obedience classes because of reactivity, ultimately failed at reconditioning that reactivity, etc. I'm coming at this as someone who has also had folks wash their hands clean of helping me and my dog, so I feel that I might understand somewhat the process you guys have gone through throughout your dog's life so far. In our case, our dog has severe neurobiological limitations (seizures). I suspect that might also be the case for you, and perhaps in conjunction with your original R+ trainer not being so great (R+ trainers can be just misguided on learning sciences!). 

Have you considered getting back in touch with your CAAB and working with your vet to trial medication? If your dog has neurobiological limitations, it may not be humane to continue using aversive techniques without pharmaceutical help because your dog may truly be unable to learn without some chemical support. Medication will not leave your dog groggy, or devoid of personality. I suppose CBD oil could be a potential option but I would be very cautious with it with a bite history and a child in the house. 

I'm hesitant to give too much direct advice, I know you must be exhausted with what you've tried. If you are open to it though, I would honestly go back to the drawing board and find an R+ trainer that specializes in _fear_ NOT aggression, and has studied alongside a CAAB for at least some of their career (and yes, you are literally allowed to ask them if they have, if they don't want you to grill them on their education, they are not a good trainer). In my experience, trainers and behaviorists that specialize in fear have a really unique approach to dog training. I know it really turned our world around when we started recognizing our "assertive" dog as the fearful dog he really is. This is where you are really going to see targeted efforts to change the emotional response. Especially coupled with medication, I think you could see some significant improvement. 

Good luck to you and your kiddo, he's obviously much loved.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I remember having small kids and trying to work with my dogs... you have your hands full for sure. I did lots of training after they went to bed and always squeezed in a few minutes during naps. It only takes a few minutes to practice on something ... several times a day.

Just an FYI, sending your pup to day care may give you a break, it might also burn off some energy but it does nothing to address the core issue. This is a training issue and will never be resolved until you two take classes together. You might also invest in a crate if you don't already have one. Freedom needs to be earned, meals need to be earned and he needs to learn that both come from you.
Just like raising your child, this takes time but promise you will see a difference with completing your 1st (6 wk) class if you practice the exercises at home daily. I wish there was an easy fix but time and consistency will prevail.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

puddles everywhere said:


> I remember having small kids and trying to work with my dogs... you have your hands full for sure. I did lots of training after they went to bed and always squeezed in a few minutes during naps. It only takes a few minutes to practice on something ... several times a day.
> 
> Just an FYI, sending your pup to day care may give you a break, it might also burn off some energy but it does nothing to address the core issue. This is a training issue and will never be resolved until you two take classes together. You might also invest in a crate if you don't already have one. Freedom needs to be earned, meals need to be earned and he needs to learn that both come from you.
> Just like raising your child, this takes time but promise you will see a difference with completing your 1st (6 wk) class if you practice the exercises at home daily. I wish there was an easy fix but time and consistency will prevail.


OP spent 2 months in R+ classes, 2 months following behaviorist recommendations at home, 7 months in their current training classes, and sounds like they do very regular exercise and training together. It really doesn't sound like the typical case of "tired mom isn't training the dog frequently enough", unfortunately.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I was thinking about this last night and have another suggestion. You are obviously already giving your boy a ton of exercise (I am SO impressed - I don't have kids and I sometimes struggle with giving my dog 30 minutes of my undivided attention!). One thing you might want to try is trading out a portion of his physical exercise time for mental exercise time. Not necessarily "training" per se but more problem solving and/or trick training. Something FUN that gets him to really think, but there's no reason for you or the dog to get frustrated (and no need for "corrections" if he does something "wrong"). My dog actually loves her agility and rally training, so I can stretch her mind by just trying to teach her something new, but we also sometimes just work on a trick or something. I don't envy you trying to train a dog that isn't food motivated, but if he's toy or praise motivated, maybe you can work with that. 

You say he hates his crate? Looking into playing some of Susan Garrett's "Crate Games." Those might be fun "games" that would kill two birds with one stone (thinking AND helping him to change how he thinks about his crate).

I've always found that 15 minutes of hard "thinking" was sometimes more exhausting than twice that amount of time in hard exercise.

I certainly don't think this will be the "cure" to his challenges; I think Mirinde gave you some good things to think about too, but it might help to take the edge off a bit more without you having to find more time in your busy schedule. And if it's fun for both of you, it might also improve your relationship with him.

If you do get a behaviorist involved again I think it's worth taking a closer look at those times when you say he is better behaved, and those when he's at his worst. Why?? Why is his behavior different in those situations? Is there anything you can do to make the "bad" situations more like the "good" situations to improve his behavior?


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Mirinde I never meant to imply this was a tired momma and certainly hope the OP doesn't think this. My last post was simply meant as support, been there done that and totally understand. I understood that the OP has not attended group classes and if I misunderstood I stand corrected. Clearly the owner and dog are not communicating and it doesn't matter how much training the dog gets if the owner can't communicate in a way the dog respects and responds they need to train together in a group class with a trainer that competes with their dog. They need to start over and learn together but this is just my humble opinion.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mirinde said:


> Yeah, that absolutely helps! Thank you!
> 
> So, as an outsider that is not in your shoes, my thought is that the prong collar and associated training methods are probably causing your kiddo to behave in an inhibited way, rather than that he's really internalized the training. Seeing this sort of regression after months of training, to me, indicates that the training was ineffective at changing the underlying emotional condition of the dog. In other words, he's learning to not display his "bad" behavior, but not learning how to change the emotional state fueling that "bad" behavior. This is super common when using these training techniques. It's not so much that they are ineffective, it's that inhibition is not always what you want/isn't always enough.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it. I'm sorry to hear you had such a difficult time as well with your pup. The resource guarding is pretty intimidating stuff, especially when they're that young. Do you mind if I ask what led your dog to be diagnosed with seizures? Was it obvious or did you take him to the vet for testing? I hope he's doing really well now. It must have been really tough not being able to go to obedience classes and I can certainly relate to the difficulty you've had. In some ways, it is nice to have an explanation behind it however even though you wouldn't want to wish neurological issues on your dog / any dog. 

And sorry, I should have clarified that our trainer doesn't pride himself on training aggressive animals. He is actually a wonderful man - he actually volunteers his services for free to help out dogs that are ready to be euthanized because they are so 'aggressive'. He doesn't use that term himself either - I just can't think of a better one to use at the moment. He helps with a lot of rescues that have been abused, etc. So, perhaps I should have said he prides himself on helping dogs that have found themselves in difficult situations and been able to help them find new homes, or stay in their current homes, etc. I do know that the prong collar training isn't for everyone...and you may very well be right about the cause of the regression. But many of our pups behaviors did go away after using his training techniques (i.e. attacking people's sleeves, jumping/lunging on people while on walks - even those just passing by, excessive biting, resource guarding (working on that always/forever), leash pulling, etc.). 

I definitely agree we need to start from scratch. His incision area from the neutering is all healed up so I started back up with our regular training routine this morning on our walks. I had stopped using the prong collar while he was neutered since his walks were supposed to be quiet/casual but am back using it due to an incident we had last night which left me very upset. 

He and I walk a ton together. I could tell he just had so much pent up energy, he tried to run in our backyard but my husband is reseeding so the majority of it is blocked off. So, I thought he might enjoy going for a little run last night...he doesn't run like as in jog. Its more of a 30 second sprint followed by sniffing then start up again. Well, he was quite happy about that and then we walked the rest of the way with no issue. Then all of a sudden out of no where he jumped up on me pulling at the leash, and nipping me quite hard. I was only about 5 minutes from home but it got so bad that I actually had to call my husband to come get us.

*sigh*

Not so easy sometimes.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Golden_mama66 said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Not so easy sometimes.


I'm so sorry you had a nipping incident last night! It must be very unsettling to have an adult dog still put their mouth on you. That image helped me to figure out how to articulate a little better why I think medication + fear specialized training might be most helpful for you -- it seems that he is consistently pretty far over his "threshold", which is a term that's thrown around a lot so in this context, I mean that he has left his learning brain and has entered his instinctual/reactive brain because he can't process calmly anymore. I'm wondering if the training so far has obscured when and where he is over threshold (because he's more biddable on the prong) and has made it hard to get to the root of the emotionality (which may very well require medication). I guess that's sort of the overall point I'm trying to make -- you're right that prongs aren't for everyone, but in this particular context, I'm just wondering if it has obscured the view of what's ultimately going on in your dog's head. And from what you've written, I suspect what's going on in your dogs head is more complex than a simple training issue. Food for thought, not an attempt to pressure you one way or the other. 

RE: seizures -- it was a little obvious it was a little not so obvious  Dogs, right!? He developed physical symptoms (head tremors) that led us to see the less obvious symptoms (sensory and behavioral disruptions). So his seizure condition and his behavioral abnormalities have always been pretty tightly linked, and it's gotten worse with age. Certainly not all of his behavior issues are related -- he's just as capable of being poorly mannered for the sake of being poorly mannered as any dog. But, dogs are just as susceptible to neurological abnormalities, learning abnormalities, and chemical abnormalities as any of us people! Even if you are not dealing with seizures, it is perfectly within the realm of possibility that you are dealing with clinical hyperactivity, redirected clinical anxiety, or any other combination of issues. Certainly worth revisiting some options with your vet and CAAB. 

You might find this article helpful for your heart right now, it is my comfort blanket: https://denisefenzi.com/2018/08/the-guilt-of-knowledge/

You might also find the subreddit for Reactive Dogs helpful https://www.reddit.com/r/reactivedogs/ -- they are an especially great source of info for muzzle training. 

This article from Trisha is great too: https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/all-incompatible-behaviors-are-not-equal It may help you to evaluate if there are better incompatible behaviors to ask of him before chaos strikes. So for example, I've never found turning my back on my dog to be an effective way to teach them to not jump. Teaching a solid "settle" where he lays on his side and gets tummy rubs though? Perf. In your case, "Down" might not be enough of an incompatible behavior to prevent the jumping and nipping for him, he might need something like "Go Find".

I really hope you guys are able to work something out. I looooove pawsnpaca's idea to do Crate Games. The #1 thing you need with a dog that goes unpredictably and intensely over threshold is a safe way to contain them. If you can recondition the crate, I suspect that would be a big qualify of life improvement for all of you. Side note... dogs with barrier/containment anxiety _very_ frequently have other comorbid anxieties as well. So it is interesting that it is something you also struggle with. 

Hugs to you!


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> I was thinking about this last night and have another suggestion. You are obviously already giving your boy a ton of exercise (I am SO impressed - I don't have kids and I sometimes struggle with giving my dog 30 minutes of my undivided attention!). One thing you might want to try is trading out a portion of his physical exercise time for mental exercise time. Not necessarily "training" per se but more problem solving and/or trick training. Something FUN that gets him to really think, but there's no reason for you or the dog to get frustrated (and no need for "corrections" if he does something "wrong"). My dog actually loves her agility and rally training, so I can stretch her mind by just trying to teach her something new, but we also sometimes just work on a trick or something. I don't envy you trying to train a dog that isn't food motivated, but if he's toy or praise motivated, maybe you can work with that.
> 
> You say he hates his crate? Looking into playing some of Susan Garrett's "Crate Games." Those might be fun "games" that would kill two birds with one stone (thinking AND helping him to change how he thinks about his crate).
> 
> ...


Thank you!! I love the idea of including games. To be truthful, we got rid of his crate because no matter what we seemed to do he wouldn't go in it unless forced. And, by forced I mean with my husband dragging him in. But you're right, he clearly needs some form of mental stimulation. I've always wanted to get him involved in some sport of some kind but of course I've been told he must be able to be off leash around other dogs which he cannot. I've been thinking about renting out a space but of course over time those fees do add up. 

If it were me I would certainly involve the behaviorist again. The issue with all of these lovely ideas is they cost money - - and I don't think my husband wants to put in anymore at this point. I get it, he's reached his limit but I'll have to speak to him again. He's of the mindset that we've already put in a lot of money into our pup. It also doesn't help that we spend a great deal trying to handle his picky eater issues! 

And, you're certainly right about the exercise. Yesterday we were out for 2.5 hours...so between my toddler and pup, I sleep well!

I really appreciate your thoughts. I think his hyperactivity drives me a bit less crazy than his random outbursts with the jumping and mouthing. I've never quite understood where those come from and any sort of command doesn't seem to calm him.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> Mirinde I never meant to imply this was a tired momma and certainly hope the OP doesn't think this. My last post was simply meant as support, been there done that and totally understand. I understood that the OP has not attended group classes and if I misunderstood I stand corrected. Clearly the owner and dog are not communicating and it doesn't matter how much training the dog gets if the owner can't communicate in a way the dog respects and responds they need to train together in a group class with a trainer that competes with their dog. They need to start over and learn together but this is just my humble opinion.


Sometimes I am a tired mama. And thank you - I appreciate the support. 

We have been involved in group classes. He knows all of his commands but it is his hyperactivity and random uncontrollable outburts have made training extremely difficult. Now that his incision is healed from the neutering we can continue our classes. We are signed up through to next July.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Just some personal experience and opinion. Take it for what it’s worth. 

When I got my little mutt neutered I noticed a huge behavioral change post neuter. He was 7mo old and had been with us a month pre surgery. He was a good, mellow little dog and after the surgery he became a pint sized reactive cujo at any dog that he could hear. He may have had issues before and we just had a honeymoon period but it was night and day pre/post surgery. Almost 2 years later it’s way way better, but not perfect. 

Penny who we brought home at 8 weeks and spayed at 14 months. There was a month post surgery where she was noticeably more of a pill. They seem to be quite a handful at that age anyway and she did settle down into her normal ornery self after several weeks. 

I think it’s quite plausible that the surgery and the abrupt hormone changes may have triggered your dogs relapse. Regardless I don’t think it changes much about what you do now. Hopefully since you have been through it all once he will be quicker to pick it back up a second time. You seem to have gotten some good advise and suggestions. Good luck. Would love to hear updates of how it goes.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mirinde said:


> I'm so sorry you had a nipping incident last night! It must be very unsettling to have an adult dog still put their mouth on you. That image helped me to figure out how to articulate a little better why I think medication + fear specialized training might be most helpful for you -- it seems that he is consistently pretty far over his "threshold", which is a term that's thrown around a lot so in this context, I mean that he has left his learning brain and has entered his instinctual/reactive brain because he can't process calmly anymore. I'm wondering if the training so far has obscured when and where he is over threshold (because he's more biddable on the prong) and has made it hard to get to the root of the emotionality (which may very well require medication). I guess that's sort of the overall point I'm trying to make -- you're right that prongs aren't for everyone, but in this particular context, I'm just wondering if it has obscured the view of what's ultimately going on in your dog's head. And from what you've written, I suspect what's going on in your dogs head is more complex than a simple training issue. Food for thought, not an attempt to pressure you one way or the other.
> 
> RE: seizures -- it was a little obvious it was a little not so obvious  Dogs, right!? He developed physical symptoms (head tremors) that led us to see the less obvious symptoms (sensory and behavioral disruptions). So his seizure condition and his behavioral abnormalities have always been pretty tightly linked, and it's gotten worse with age. Certainly not all of his behavior issues are related -- he's just as capable of being poorly mannered for the sake of being poorly mannered as any dog. But, dogs are just as susceptible to neurological abnormalities, learning abnormalities, and chemical abnormalities as any of us people! Even if you are not dealing with seizures, it is perfectly within the realm of possibility that you are dealing with clinical hyperactivity, redirected clinical anxiety, or any other combination of issues. Certainly worth revisiting some options with your vet and CAAB.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much - your response is so helpful. And, yes it was definitely unsettling last night where he just wouldn't calm down. We had a much shorter incident on a walk today with the prong collar on. I didn't 'pop' the collar - instead I asked him to get into a sit which actually worked after a minute or so. Yesterday nothing I tried seemed to work...it was like he was in his own world. I think that is the hardest part - I have no idea why or when they come on...and if I'll be able to control it. I think I get scared - not necessarily because of the biting and jumping so much because the 'bite' isn't so bad but its the pulling on the leash. I'm scared he'll run away or run into traffic if he gets out of my grasp. And I totally agree, turning your back doesn't matter at all. He continues to jump on me and nip regardless.

The sits and the downs will work sometimes when he's the excited. Last night was a clear example where it did not. There are some foods he does really like - I wonder if it may help distract in those situations? Or maybe carrying something with me? I also saw some postings where people suggested a chain leash? 

I will contact the vet. He's due for a follow-up appointment to check his incision area anyway so probably not a bad opportunity to discuss. And I'll certainly look at the threads and articles you've suggested. 

The funny thing is, he's still come a long way. If I could just say how difficult he was at 6-8 months...he wasn't even manageable at that point! So, baby steps I suppose. 

Thanks again  It feels good to talk about it and vent...


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Gleepers said:


> Just some personal experience and opinion. Take it for what it’s worth.
> 
> When I got my little mutt neutered I noticed a huge behavioral change post neuter. He was 7mo old and had been with us a month pre surgery. He was a good, mellow little dog and after the surgery he became a pint sized reactive cujo at any dog that he could hear. He may have had issues before and we just had a honeymoon period but it was night and day pre/post surgery. Almost 2 years later it’s way way better, but not perfect.
> 
> ...



Thank you! It is a huge relief to hear that. You're right it doesn't really change the fact that he's 'relapsed' but everyone I've talked to keeps saying its impossible that it was related to the neutering. But, it really did seem like he took 4 steps back after he got neutered...he had come a long way. And, I hadn't been walking him with the prong collar for some time since he improved so much. 

I am glad your pups improved over time  I'm still hopeful and will certainly post updates. I won't be giving up on him anytime soon!


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

I am utterly heart broken today. 

I took my dog on a walk today and even brought my husbands pulled pork in a bag today to see if it would help with the jumping / niping on leash. Well, we made it about 5 minutes until he started jumping all over me and biting. No matter what I did, he wouldn't stop biting me. Every step I took he bit me more. My arm is black, blue and swollen. Every time I pried my hand off of his mouth he would go for it again. This is a different dog than the one I dropped off at the vets. 

The breeder is coming to get him today to take him for 3 weeks for medical work ups and to see if she can help him. She promised nothing would happen to him without my consent and that after 3 weeks we are still not okay with him coming home she will find a new place for him. 

I am beyond crushed. I lost my last dog at 6 and got this boy shortly after. I thought he would be with me until he was old and grey. This just feels so unfair.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I am so sorry... how wonderful for the breeder to offer support. Hope for a happy ending!


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I am sorry. I guess it is terrible but also a bit of a relief. No one wants to be afraid of their dog. I hope they will find a way to help him.


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## LynnC (Nov 14, 2015)

I am so sorry.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Thank you for the kind messages. My breeder is wonderful. She is taking him for 3 weeks to see if she can help with behavior modification. She will also be running medical tests on him to check his thyroid, etc. and determine whether he has ADHD and requires medication. He will also be seeing a behaviorist . 

Her hope is that she can come up with a plan and he can come back home. I am hoping the same because I already miss him. Maybe that is stupid to try and remain optimistic.

He wasn't bearing his teeth, growling at me or anything like that while it happened. It was like he just wanted to get away from the leash and I was preventing him. I am so hopeful its ADHD or something like that. Anyway...Day 1 without him. Surviving but struggling.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Golden_mama66 said:


> Thank you for the kind messages. My breeder is wonderful. She is taking him for 3 weeks to see if she can help with behavior modification. She will also be running medical tests on him to check his thyroid, etc. and determine whether he has ADHD and requires medication. He will also be seeing a behaviorist .
> 
> Her hope is that she can come up with a plan and he can come back home. I am hoping the same because I already miss him. Maybe that is stupid to try and remain optimistic.
> 
> He wasn't bearing his teeth, growling at me or anything like that while it happened. It was like he just wanted to get away from the leash and I was preventing him. I am so hopeful its ADHD or something like that. Anyway...Day 1 without him. Surviving but struggling.


Fingers crossed for you there is a medication protocol that can break through whatever chemical storm he must be experiencing and allow for effective learning. This must be so hard  Hang in there.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mirinde said:


> Fingers crossed for you there is a medication protocol that can break through whatever chemical storm he must be experiencing and allow for effective learning. This must be so hard  Hang in there.


Thank you so much. My arm was quite bruised with what looks more like scratches (he didn't break the skin). So, I called my doctors office after being forced by my husband for an appointment to ensure there was no infection. The doctor wasn't in so they advised I go to a walk in clinic which I am so upset that I did. After I had my appointment the doctor said she was reporting the issue to public health. I had no idea what that meant. Anyway, the public health inspector is coming today just to make sure he's home - he's now subject to a 10-day quarantine (to ensure no rabies, etc.) despite having proof of his rabies shots. I'm a little surprised just given the fact there was no skin broken, no puncture type wounds, etc. It was essentially extreme mouthing. Anyway, he is home and we will follow the quarantine. 

My breeder spent significant time with me yesterday (she is just fabulous) and provided me with many suggestions. Our goal is for him to stay. She said if we are still uncomfortable after the quarantine he can go back to her place. We are working on:

- Mat work as a way to get him to relax or go lie down when we need him too
- Not acknowledging him unless he lies down or is sitting for our attention
- More positive reinforcement
- Nothing in life is free method

Also, we will be using a gentle leader rather than the prong collar now. Our breeder thinks this may help to calm him since he is an anxious dog. And, he also walks really well now so the prong collar has pretty much served its purpose. She also suggested that he doesn't have to necessarily walk by our side and perhaps forcing him to heel for long periods of time (as suggested by our last trainer) may be counter productive for him. It will be a while before I start walking him again just given my experience and of course the quarantine prevents me from doing so anyway. So, he will either return to the breeders for 3 weeks after the quarantine. Or if we feel like we've made good progress then she said I can come to her place and we can work on walking him together. Then, I can let him run around and play with her 7 dogs. 

She thinks the reason for his behavior is partly due to a) hyperactivity and b) my husbands over correcting and then my over compensating and allowing him to get away with too much. 

We will be spending a lot of time working with him over the next several days so please wish us luck. Once the quarantine is over we will do the medical assessments as well to see if medication is needed to help with his hyperactivity. 

This morning went well. I made him sit before his meals, before going outside/inside. We gave him positive attention anytime he went to rest / lie down. I ignored him (as hard as that was for me) until he was calm and lying down. We asked our sitter to do the same and had him on the gentle leader when she came in. He did not jump all over her. He was still excited to see her but eventually sat and lay down for tummy rubs. He has also remained calm throughout the morning.

Thanks everyone for listening. It has been a very difficult few days and we will take one day at a time. But, having my breeder supporting us and being there anytime I have questions has been wonderful. She is an excellent resource and I will be keeping in touch with her regularly and taking videos of some of the mat work we will be doing


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Kuddos to you for giving such an effort for your pup! Prayers are definitely for all of you. Someone once told me you sometimes get the dog you need but not always the one you want or expected. There are lessons to be learned for all 
Thanks for the update, everyone here is pulling for you!!

BTW... your breeder sounds like the 1st person to provide you with good advice! Balance between all in the family is important


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm so glad your breeder is giving you a hand, it sounds like she has excellent advice. 

If he has an enormous distaste for the gentle leader, there are alternative head halters such as the The Perfect Pace halter https://boldleaddesigns.com/shop/the-perfect-pace-no-pull-halter-leash/. They all fit a little differently so don't get discouraged if he hates one. They are great tools.

I wholeheartedly agree with not forcing the heel -- heeling is an incredibly unnatural behavior for dogs and it may be way too much pressure on him. It's amazing how sensitive dogs are to pressure, and their reactions when they don't know how to (or can't) handle that pressure can be so varied. It's also amazing how many things do indeed put pressure on our dogs, and we never notice until there's a crisis. When Iorek's brain started crumbling, we learned that a good majority of his day to day activities actually put more pressure on him than he could handle comfortably. 

I'm extrapolating a bit based on your posts, but from what I can decipher of your personality here, you might really enjoy Kathy Sdao's book Plenty In Life Is Free -- it's a short book. Kathy is an absolutely gifted behaviorist, and this book is all about her navigating training challenging dogs while also truly valuing having a joyful relationship with them. I suspect it will resonate with you while you navigate handling this situation without losing your connection with your pup, and has a lot of immediately applicable solutions. https://www.amazon.com/Plenty-Life-...065227&sr=8-1&keywords=plenty+in+life+is+free

Emma Parsons' Click to Calm would be a good staple for you right now too https://www.amazon.com/Click-Calm-Healing-Aggressive-Clicker/dp/1890948209 . Emma got into clicker training through her reactive Golden Retriever, Ben. She's also a licensed vet tech and consults on behavior cases. What's really neat about Click to Calm is that she wrote it for folks with dogs like Ben. Ben had no discernible threshold, and his outbursts seemingly came out of nowhere, like they do with your kiddo. He also had no discernible signs of calming down. She describes one time where she waited so long for him to "calm down" that he eventually just ended up vomiting from the stress, which sounds a lot like how your guy _just. can't. stop._. So instead of setting the bar too high, she helps you meet your dog where they're at. Maybe instead of waiting to reward a sit, you reward the moment all four paws are on the ground, you know? I feel that it's very good at removing that power struggle, and finding an "in" for training that doesn't apply more pressure than the dog can handle. 

Fingers crossed for your family, and lots of love your way.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Mirinde said:


> Fingers crossed for you there is a medication protocol that can break through whatever chemical storm he must be experiencing and allow for effective learning. This must be so hard  Hang in there.





Mirinde said:


> I'm so glad your breeder is giving you a hand, it sounds like she has excellent advice.
> 
> If he has an enormous distaste for the gentle leader, there are alternative head halters such as the The Perfect Pace halter https://boldleaddesigns.com/shop/the-perfect-pace-no-pull-halter-leash/. They all fit a little differently so don't get discouraged if he hates one. They are great tools.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your message. I will certainly look into all of these suggestions. In some ways, I almost feel like I'm an alcoholic admitting to having a drinking problem. You don't want to admit fault, you know all you've done is reinforce the behavior and that its all in your ability to change the situation. 

Day 1 was wonderful. We did our mat work - it was fun, a bit awkward at first. He kept sitting nicely in front of me instead of going over to the mat. I guess he figured he'd probably get something just by sitting properly for me, haha! But, he eventually figured it out and actually would lie down on the mat for decent periods of time waiting for a treat! 

I also ignored him unless he was lying down as in all 4 paws down and maybe the odd sit  Gave him loads of positive attention when he was doing so. We played fetch and then tug in the evenings. My husband and I also took him on a walk using the gentle leader and he was great. I didn't walk him and probably won't for a while until I'm more comfortable (the inspector gave us the all clear for walks!) But instead of a 2-hour total walk, he got 40 minutes total plus + at least 30 minutes of fetch yesterday and 30 minutes of tug in the evening. Then, mat time and lots of positive attention. He seemed much happier  He didn't even jump on the sitter! 

This morning also went off without a hitch. I took him and my son out in the backyard for 40 minutes and alternated between playing with my son and playing fetch with our pup. Our sitter arrived and he barely acknowledged her and stuck by my side! I grabbed a couple of his tennis balls and toys and took him upstairs with me and shut the door as I needed to start working. But, I took an additional 5-10 minutes to play with him and the ball. Then, turned on my computer and off he went to nap. 

I guess sometimes its tough to admit that you're doing things the 'wrong' way. Have I tried getting him enough exercise? Yes. Have I tried different training methods? Yes. But, have I given him enough mental stimulation and positive attention to succeed? Probably not. I know it's only Day 2 but I'm staying positive. I am also thinking that walks for him have maybe just been work - and you know that saying about all work and no play...


He/I have to be together for the long haul. I have to believe he is with me for a reason and it's my job as his fur mama to do everything I can to keep it that way. That is it - that's my rant and update for today. It feels good to recognize how much I have impacted his behaviors but sad that it had to get to this point for me to see that. Thank you all for reading and for your supportive responses. It feels nice to not be alone.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I am so glad to see your update. Almost everyone is trying their best with whatever knowledge they have, and who can fault that. One of the reasons I like this forum is the experienced advice and knowledge available to anyone who is seeking it. Good for you to not give up on your pup in this rough patch! Continue the work and I predict a great relationship for you and your dog. Don't get discouraged by an off day, just keep plugging away and soon good habits will be ingrained in an adult dog.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Hooray! Off to a good start... FWIW ALL handlers at some point have had to admit it's never the dog, it's the handler... welcome to the club  We all need boundaries, doesn't mean we have to like them especially at first but we need them. Sounds like you're doing a great job and so happy to hear you are off to a good start.

And thank you for allowing us to take this journey with you... everyone on the forum loves happy endings!


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

cwag said:


> I am so glad to see your update. Almost everyone is trying their best with whatever knowledge they have, and who can fault that. One of the reasons I like this forum is the experienced advice and knowledge available to anyone who is seeking it. Good for you to not give up on your pup in this rough patch! Continue the work and I predict a great relationship for you and your dog. Don't get discouraged by an off day, just keep plugging away and soon good habits will be ingrained in an adult dog.


Thank you so much! I think I maybe had convinced myself that I was doing my best. I think I got lost in the fact that we were 'exercising' with the walks so all he really needed was that and some cuddles / tummy rubs. I lost the quality part - and quite truthfully stopped enjoying him the way I should have been. I wasn't really giving him much of a chance to do well now that I really assess the situation. 

Anyway, we are taking 1 day at a time. Having support on this forum has been wonderful and seeing others with similar experiences come out on top is so encouraging. I think with my breeders support as well, we'll be okay.  I will definitely keep plugging away. And, I do hope that he and I can get to the point where we enjoy a walking together again. Though, I will definitely try to make it more fun for him that's for sure. 

I really, really appreciate your encouraging note.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> Hooray! Off to a good start... FWIW ALL handlers at some point have had to admit it's never the dog, it's the handler... welcome to the club  We all need boundaries, doesn't mean we have to like them especially at first but we need them. Sounds like you're doing a great job and so happy to hear you are off to a good start.
> 
> And thank you for allowing us to take this journey with you... everyone on the forum loves happy endings!


Thank you so much for this message and for your support throughout! 

I took him outside at lunchtime for fetch in our backyard again. We passed by our sitter and her baby - he didn't even look at her. Same thing on the way back in. He waited for me to make my lunch and then off we went together upstairs. Mind you, I had a couple toys in hand including his favorite tennis ball. But, I ate my lunch played for another moment or two and back to work. As you can see I'm not very productive today work-wise! :grin2: I also pushed my computer away a few times and had him in my lap (he was on his back) and I just gave him tummy rubs and told him how good of a boy he was. He fell asleep on me for a good 30 minutes. 

When I have my next break we'll do some mat work followed by some tug!


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

As with everyone else who has responded - congratulations on the hard work and steps you are taking. As mentioned previously, we all think we are doing a great job. Then we find out things are not working, but by reading this forum, we find out others are in the same boat and we can always find new ways to do things. It does sound like your boy actually likes having boundries, etc., and things to keep his mind busy as well. Sometimes this tires them out more than physical exercise. Yes, there will be off days - after all he is just like a teenager now so relapses will happen. If so, just go back to your basics for a while to get his mind thinking again. It will be a slow and steady process, but can have a great outcome. I have had dogs steadily (1,2 or 3 at any given time) since 1990, and have done lots of training over the years. I still like following posts like this, as I still continue to learn new things everyday. Keep us posted.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Our3dogs said:


> As with everyone else who has responded - congratulations on the hard work and steps you are taking. As mentioned previously, we all think we are doing a great job. Then we find out things are not working, but by reading this forum, we find out others are in the same boat and we can always find new ways to do things. It does sound like your boy actually likes having boundries, etc., and things to keep his mind busy as well. Sometimes this tires them out more than physical exercise. Yes, there will be off days - after all he is just like a teenager now so relapses will happen. If so, just go back to your basics for a while to get his mind thinking again. It will be a slow and steady process, but can have a great outcome. I have had dogs steadily (1,2 or 3 at any given time) since 1990, and have done lots of training over the years. I still like following posts like this, as I still continue to learn new things everyday. Keep us posted.


Thank you Our3dogs for adding to all the encouraging messages I've received. This really is a wonderful place to get support and advice! It is also helpful to remember that as you say the relapses happen...I need to keep that in mind and understand that he isn't going to all of a sudden be a perfectly behaved dog. I know it's going to take time and patience but I feel a lot more confident that we are at least headed in the right direction. And, I will say I'm a bit jealous you've had 3 at any given time. I wish I had a sibling for our pup - I think that's something he would have really enjoyed since he just loves to play. Unfortunately, I only married what I call a 'dog liker' and not 'lover' lol. I think he only has room for 1 pup at a time!! 

We are now on Day 5 and so far so good!! I have been trying to find things to entertain him this morning since it's raining outside which definitely makes the outdoor play tough - especially since our backyard is covered in mud  We played a bit outside this morning with his ball but we came inside after 15-20 minutes because even with a few layers on, I thought it was just a bit to chilly to stand outside and play for my toddler. When my sitter came in, he greeted her at the door but no jumping (hooray!). He did however, try to steal a roll of empty paper towel and a remote but I think he's just trying to get our attention. I was able to take both items from him without issue which can be difficult at times with a resource guarder and redirect his attention to a squeaky tennis ball. 

I brought a bunch of toys upstairs with me including a bone in case of boredom and a toy that you can stuff treats like benny bullys in and it will dispense one every so often. Kept him entertained for all of 10 minutes before he started looking for something of mine to get my attention. But, he eventually gave up and went down for a nap. 

I need him to learn that Monday - Friday are work days and mom isn't always available to play when he wants BUT she will play with him when she can. 

Anyway, he seems to be quite a bit more calm! He was excellent over the weekend- I couldn't believe how much praise he got from my husband. He even took our pup outside to play which I don't think he's done...ever!! The best part is all that positivity wasn't forced  

Lastly...I still want to question whether his behavior last week was due to a surge of hormones from the neutering. He all of a sudden seems to have calmed down quite a bit. And, I don't think I can attribute that to our training changes over the past couple days!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I am so happy to hear the positive results. As far as hormones I guess that's entirely possible to get a testosterone rush. I do know it takes a couple of weeks after a neuter before they can no longer make puppies. 
If you continue to be consistent with your working schedule he will catch on. My girl lays under my chair with the foster puppy next to her. The other 2 are scattered around the room and the cat is next to the computer, I have a zoo. I think wanting to be in the same room as you is coded in their DNA!


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

It was great to read your update. It made me smile when you said your husband took him outside to play. All of this does make a difference. Our dogs are affected by the stress level in the home. By your husband making this move, it also helps your boy. As long as both of you are consistent with your training methods, things will improve. I remember when our Logan (the big guy in my picture) was around that age - he would get this "devil-dog look" in his eye and he was thinking the game was on. I knew, I better make my move right then by having him sit, etc. otherwise he decided it was more fun to play keep-away from Mom and not come, etc. It was just one of the many phases. But as you recognize each one and start to work through them, it gets easier. When Logan would start to get like this, I would realize I was slacking up on training, and we would get back into the routine. Keep it up!


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> I am so happy to hear the positive results. As far as hormones I guess that's entirely possible to get a testosterone rush. I do know it takes a couple of weeks after a neuter before they can no longer make puppies.
> If you continue to be consistent with your working schedule he will catch on. My girl lays under my chair with the foster puppy next to her. The other 2 are scattered around the room and the cat is next to the computer, I have a zoo. I think wanting to be in the same room as you is coded in their DNA!


Thanks puddles everywhere for all your comments.  I am hoping it was a rush of the hormones. He is doing really well with the mat work and has become tennis ball obsessed. It is a really nice way to keep him by my side (until that one is torn up and we move on to the next) without jumping all over my sitter. I'm very happy with him so far. He did get try to 'steal' a few things yesterday - mostly my things which is nice because before all he was stealing was my toddler's toys and chewing them up! But, i changed my approach which I hope helps. I would get angry at him, partially because I was so frustrated with his behavior. Instead I was able to take the item and redirect his attention to his tennis ball. Any suggestions on how to handle this sort of behavior? I don't care if he steals socks and those sorts of things as he's just a puppy. But sometimes his 'stealing' can get out of control. And, I love how many animals you have in the home - I always wanted more than one  Though, now I have to figure out how to handle 1 first lol. Thank you again!!


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> I am so happy to hear the positive results. As far as hormones I guess that's entirely possible to get a testosterone rush. I do know it takes a couple of weeks after a neuter before they can no longer make puppies.
> If you continue to be consistent with your working schedule he will catch on. My girl lays under my chair with the foster puppy next to her. The other 2 are scattered around the room and the cat is next to the computer, I have a zoo. I think wanting to be in the same room as you is coded in their DNA!





Our3dogs said:


> It was great to read your update. It made me smile when you said your husband took him outside to play. All of this does make a difference. Our dogs are affected by the stress level in the home. By your husband making this move, it also helps your boy. As long as both of you are consistent with your training methods, things will improve. I remember when our Logan (the big guy in my picture) was around that age - he would get this "devil-dog look" in his eye and he was thinking the game was on. I knew, I better make my move right then by having him sit, etc. otherwise he decided it was more fun to play keep-away from Mom and not come, etc. It was just one of the many phases. But as you recognize each one and start to work through them, it gets easier. When Logan would start to get like this, I would realize I was slacking up on training, and we would get back into the routine. Keep it up!


Oh i know that devil-dog look all too well, haha!! Thank you so much for your reply - it is really nice to know that I'm not alone and that others didn't always have an easy time with their goldens. I'll admit I've always had goldens that were so easy going that training was so easy! I guess I've lucked out in the way. My last boy passed away at 6 from hemangiosarcoma and was the sweetest boy you'd ever meet. He grew out of his puppy phase by 1 and was my first golden that I actually owned (I've grown up with goldens my entire life). I think I just had an easy time with him...so part of it may just be overwhelming because I just truly didn't know how to handle a hyperactive dog. It's nice that I'm starting to learn a little here and there  

And, as far as my husband goes I was over the moon when he took our boy outside. He even did some mat work last night (it's been me mostly). It was really great to see!! I am so hopeful this will make a huge difference for our boy. He craves my husband's attention - my guess is because he really hadn't got a whole lot before. So, we are definitely making progress here!! 

Thank you again for all your comments. I am still taking this day by day but having my husband on board is a huge help. I was worried he would just use the walking incident as an excuse to give him away. But yesterday he went out and bought a huge bag of food and has been talking about how to help our boy at home moving forward so...PHEW!!!! I can breathe a sigh of relief there


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Hi Everyone,

It has been a month since my original post in this thread. We are still working on the positive reinforcement training and have introduced the mat work as part of his routine. He has done very well and we see a noticeable difference in his behavior and will continue to work on it. 

He's had moments of over getting overly excited - even on days where we do plenty of training, mat work, "hall ball" until his tongue is far out to the side (hall ball also consists of training - I don't throw the ball until he does something for me). He also gets 40 minutes of walk time per days instead of the 2 hours I was taking him on. The other night, my husband and I were having a phone interview with a potential sitter for our son and were sitting on the couch. It was about 8:00PM. Anyway, he walked over to us with a 'wild' look in his eyes (you could see the whites in his eyes - they go kind of bulgy, hard to explain) and started jumping up at us and mouthing while were were just sitting there. I ignored him and he eventually stopped. Then, he came over a few minutes later to my husband and of course my husband being the impatient person he is immediately reacted and pushed him down. Well, you know what its like when you push your dog down when overexcited. So, things escalated and eventually the only thing that worked was to put our pup outside until we finished our call. 

Then, this morning happened. He was really good until our sitter arrived. Lately he hasn't been jumping on her and has been excitable but were able to calm him down quickly. He went after her sleeves and jumped. I had to take his mouth off her sleeves and inbetween stealing a few toys here or there I was able to grab a coffee and head upstairs with him. We played hall ball for a good 20-25 minutes .Then, my sister in law showed up for a few minutes and is terrified of dogs...so because of how hyper he was being this morning I put him in the backyard for 15-20 minutes until she left. He came barreling in, jumping all over my sitter, attacking her sleeves. I took his mouth off her sleeves then he jumped all over me, nipping me. I tried to stay calm and redirect him to another toy which didn't really work for a while. I took him back upstairs with me and within a couple minutes he was fast asleep. 

He has been so good I'm trying to be very positive.We're going to book him an appointment (now that his quarantine is over) to see our vet about adding calming supplements. Our vet said something about how a calming diet can help as well. We're going to look into some testing. 

I haven't really walked him since the incident. Quite honestly, it's tough because that was something he/I did together and I miss it. I'm not scared he'll react the way he did again - I know he wasn't being vicious. In fact I'm more nervous about other people that will call animal control. So for now, he and I will be playing a lot of hall ball, tossing the ball in the backyard, or playing tug. But we go on family walks together 1x a day (2x per day on weekends). So, it's not all bad. 

On a more positive note (until the situation this morning) he hasn't been taking many of my sons toys. He has been listening more to commands and there is a noticeable difference in our bonding. He's also been more affectionate. My husband has even let him up on the couch in the basement which is a big deal  I'm feeling more confident though that he needs a bit more help to calm down and that its not just the training part. The outbursts usually come on suddenly and are out of character. I'm curious to know what tests our vet will run. 

Thanks to everyone for reading.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Glad to hear that there is improvement. 
Penny is an excited greeter who often jumps up and tries to mouth guests. We put her on a leash any time someone comes over. When she was younger she had to stay on it but now she can come off after the initial excitement wears off.


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

*Another Update
*
We took our boy to the vet to discuss some of his behavioral issues. Our vet said it was extremely unlikely that his issues were thyroid related a) because he didn't meet the symptoms of hypothyroid and a hyperthyroid is much more uncommon in dogs and b) he feels like he's too young to really have thyroid issues. I don't think he was poo-pooing it. But, I think he was saying the likelihood is quite low that its thyroid related so he doesn't feel like its necessary to test for at this point. 

He thinks his 'outbursts' and inability to calm down are due to anxiety/stress. He said a big part of helping things to improve will be more positive reinforcement (which you all know, we're working hard on) and finding appropriate ways to tire him mentally and physically. The vet prescribed Zylkene which is a natural supplement to help with anxiety. I had never heard of it but the vet recommended it for the next month in addition to our 'work'. He said its entirely possible that our pup has ADHD because he's a bit more than just hyperactive and can't seem to control it. But, the preference is to use this supplement in the hopes that it helps him so we never have to resort to actual medication. 

So, positive training + the right types of physical/mental stimulation + Zylkene is hopefully our solution - at least for now until he may calm down a little. 

The vet did say that if the Zylkene doesn't help at all we can explore other avenues but neither he or I are interested in medicating my pup unless absolutely necessary. And, I wouldn't agree to that anyway unless he performed tests to rule out other issues. 

I am feeling hopeful. I do hope the Zylkene helps him feel more calm. I hate to think he's stressed out or anxious, my poor boy. I did like that its isn't a sedative and does not create personality change - that was very important to me. 

Thanks again everyone for reading and all your comments


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## Golden_mama66 (Jan 20, 2018)

Gleepers said:


> Glad to hear that there is improvement.
> Penny is an excited greeter who often jumps up and tries to mouth guests. We put her on a leash any time someone comes over. When she was younger she had to stay on it but now she can come off after the initial excitement wears off.


I'm glad Penny is getting better over time! I feel like the jumping is the hardest to get rid of...my boys issues are a bit more than just jumping unfortunately. The jumping leads to biting/nipping and won't stop until you find some way to calm him down...its like he just can't stop himself from doing it. Then once its 'over' he's quite upset and will go lie down/be quiet for the next couple hours.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

My dogs have not had guarding issues... but it doesn’t sound like your boy has extreme issues in that dept.

My take is that he is very bonded to you and wants your full attention. He’s very smart. And he’s a mouthy sporting breed. The sitter coming over means you are going to be busy with work, which is why it’s easier when the sitter leaves. He sounds like a typical toddler in a big boy body, which is what he is.

Tell your husband you will take over all the training. Your dog is getting anxious/stressed because he wants to be part of things and when he acts out, he’s over his threshold and needs to be helped to calm down, not to be punished or corrected... like a toddler. It will be easier if you handle this so that you can remain calm and consistent.

Work through the Relaxation Protocol (there’s an MP3 version so you can just play it and follow along; do a google search and it will pop up). Your dog does not need more, more, more stimulation. He needs to learn how to relax.

Make sure he’s getting good naps. Just like a toddler! Since the crate didn’t go well, try an expen.

Jumping and biting is not uncommon. It is a reason large adolescent dogs are often given up. It is not aggression. He was aroused and did not break skin...this is a good sign. Neutering is not a fix.

Your goal is to provide a positive, calm environment in which he can learn how to focus and develop good impulse control. This happens by focusing on what you want him to do. Teach tug with rules (do a search on my name for an explanation of how I did it). Helps the dog learn how to take their arousal level down.

You are doing great. Just keep going. It will be worth it.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

https://centerforshelterdogs.tufts.edu/dog-behavior/problems-and-management/jumpy-mouthy/


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