# Ichthyosis carrier to carrier breeding question



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'm posting in the field section since ichthyosis seems to be found more in field breedings.

I have a friend that just found out his boy is a carrier for ich has been bred to a bitch that is a carrier for ich. So knowing that ich carrier + ich carrier = 25% affected, what is really the issue? Is ich that bad? Should the puppies be tested before going to homes? The litter was born last week. I don't know if any are "peelers".


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It isn't more common in field breedings, there is just more awareness of it in the field community and more dogs tested for it.

In most cases you're going to have a few puppies that display some excess dander starting in three to four weeks.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

There seem to be degrees of Icthy, with some affecteds showing no signs and others showing significant flaking. It's obviously up to the breeder if testing is due.
Nonetheless, I don't know of a single field trialer that has a particular concern about Icthy, but I cannot speak of other venues.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Swampcollie,
I should have said that it seems that it's more common in field breedings, it's just tested for more often. When I look at show breedings that have an ich test posted, it is usually Clear. So that's how I deduced that it was more common in field breedings. It was probably not the best reasoning on my part.

FT,
The puppies were just born last week and the owner of the bitch just notified the owner of the stud that his bitch was a carrier. They didn't do the test on the bitch until after the puppies were born. So now the proof is in the pudding and we'll see how the pups do. Any idea of how soon the peeling, if any, shows up?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think they need to be very upfront with the puppy buyers, explain what Ichthyosis is and the possible effects on the puppies now and later, and explain why they hadn't done the testing (which has been available for several years) prior to the breeding. 
I couldn't tell from the way your post was worded if the stud dog owner knew the dog was a carrier prior to the breeding.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> FT,
> Any idea of how soon the peeling, if any, shows up?


No, I don't have a clue. The age at which it manifests, too, probably varies.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Barb,
The bitch had the core 4 clearances, which is all most breeders do. The stud had all tests done prior to breeding. The owner did know that his dog was a carrier.

Just like FT said, the field people have been much more concerned about getting the testing done. I tested for it in my bitch. When I looked her pedigree, almost no dogs in her pedigree have had the genetic testing completed.

I met a genetic scientist from Boston earlier this year. She happens to be a golden person also. She thinks the ich test is bad science and the test should be done away with. And yes she is a field person also.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Why is the ict test bad science? Because people don't like what it's finding? Or because it's a *minor* disease? Or is the test itself faulty? I've had an affected dog (Toby) and believe me, you want to avoid it if you can.
I personally see no reason to breed carrier or affected to untested mates, or to carrier or affected mates, UNLESS there is something that is so fantastical that you don't care if the puppies are affected. This would be a rare thing, though.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Why do sooo many show breeders not test for ich then? I mean next to none do.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

If they knew the stud was affected the most responsible thing would be to be sure that any bitch bred to was clear. Otherwise what's the point of doing the testing. A friend of mine had a golden with severe symptoms of ict and it was not a good situation.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

One thing I would add - some people just to the swab which it is said to be less conclusive. I have done the blood test for Rose and just ordered the blood test for Belle. 

Since this is a genetic test it can be done at any time and the breeder gets a litter discount. If carrier to carrier was bred I would personally not touch a puppy unless tests were done. As Barb said this is not a new test or new issue; IMHO it should have been done before the breeding took place. 

Also I do not think it is field golden issue; ICHT is in the entire breed.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> Why do sooo many show breeders not test for ich then? I mean next to none do.


They're all sitting on the sidelines until somebody blinks. In the short term ignorance is bliss. 

The day will come when somebody buys an affected pup produced by a couple of conformation champions, and the pup's owner does the test and verifies the "affected" status. Then the hunt for carriers will be on in droves.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> Barb,
> The bitch had the core 4 clearances, which is all most breeders do. The stud had all tests done prior to breeding. The owner did know that his dog was a carrier.
> 
> Just like FT said, the field people have been much more concerned about getting the testing done. I tested for it in my bitch. When I looked her pedigree, almost no dogs in her pedigree have had the genetic testing completed.
> ...


I heard of this too i.e. bad science.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

I'm sorry, "bad science"? Would someone please clarify?


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## lestat1978 (Oct 9, 2012)

Unless one of the dogs was known to be clear, I would not be interested in a litter with an unknown status. Maiya's parents were both tested.

My Dobe is a rescue and unfortunately has a number of the health problems known in the breed. Three out of four years I've come out ahead of his insurance. 

There is no reason, as an educated buyer, that I would pay to take on a potential issue of unknown severity that's easily avoided.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The bad science comments usually are due to dogs that are tested to be "affected", yet show no physical manifestation of the condition. The same comments are also made with nearly every new genetic test that comes out. (prcdPRA, PRA1, EIC, CNM, etc.)


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Neither the sire or the dam of this litter is Affected. Both are only Carriers. Carrier + Carrier = 25% Affected, 50% Carriers, 25% Clear. It's anyone's guess what actually is produced. There are 8 or 9 pups in this litter, not sure what the cost is to test that many pups.

I've read that Euro and UK dogs have a higher rate of ich. Which makes me think the reason we see it so much in field litters is possibly Holway Barty was affected and he was the most heavily used field sire on record. He is also from the UK. Just a thought, nothing I can prove, he's long dead. But it would make sense. When I look at US show dogs that are tested its rare that I find one with ich.

I would hate to see any dogs removed from our already small gene pool.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Kiowa II was a carrier and he was a popular sire long before Barty. His ancestors are also found in the background of the Conformation dogs as well. This is something that has been with the breed all along.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

More are starting to, but I agree, everyone should be doing so.



Alaska7133 said:


> Why do sooo many show breeders not test for ich then? I mean next to none do.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The point is not to remove them from the gene pool, it's to avoid breeding to another affected or carrier if the dog is an affected or carrier. It's not about reducing the gene pool, it's about intelligent choices when you pick the stud dog, or as the stud dog, when you agree to the breeding.
Tito is a carrier. I was shocked, as no one has ever *seen* any in his lines, and he's got some big dogs in his pedigree. I doubted the test results, to be honest. He was bred to a clear bitch, and the female puppies were tested before the breeder decided which one to keep, and 2 of the females were carriers. So yep, the test results are correct, he must be a carrier. Oh, and he has no field lines in his pedigree, at least within the past 5 or so generations. 




Alaska7133 said:


> Neither the sire or the dam of this litter is Affected. Both are only Carriers. Carrier + Carrier = 25% Affected, 50% Carriers, 25% Clear. It's anyone's guess what actually is produced. There are 8 or 9 pups in this litter, not sure what the cost is to test that many pups.
> 
> I've read that Euro and UK dogs have a higher rate of ich. Which makes me think the reason we see it so much in field litters is possibly Holway Barty was affected and he was the most heavily used field sire on record. He is also from the UK. Just a thought, nothing I can prove, he's long dead. But it would make sense. When I look at US show dogs that are tested its rare that I find one with ich.
> 
> I would hate to see any dogs removed from our already small gene pool.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

I understand that cost can be a deterant to testing beyond the basics. Here is a link to a much more cost effective genetic testing site used by my breeder. 

Muscular Dystrophy | Animal Genetics

FYI, my breeder breeds show dogs/competition dogs but most puppies go to pet homes and she is most conscientious of ALL health issues relating to the breed.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes and no....it's a cost of doing business. Total cost for ALL health testing should run under $1000, including the basics plus all the genetic tests. With good Golden puppies selling for around $1500, and the average litter size being 8, and the average bitch having 2-3 litters, well, do the math. 
From the stud dog side of it, the first stud fee covers the health testing. As I said, cost of doing business.




Gwen said:


> I understand that cost can be a deterant to testing beyond the basics. Here is a link to a much more cost effective genetic testing site used by my breeder.
> 
> Muscular Dystrophy | Animal Genetics
> 
> FYI, my breeder breeds show dogs/competition dogs but most puppies go to pet homes and she is most conscientious of ALL health issues relating to the breed.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

For many who haven't experienced a pup with Ichthyosis there might be a great deal of fear regarding the condition. We tend to elaborate a great deal on the more severe cases on this forum. "How bad it could possibly get" if things go wrong.

Fortunately most "affected" Golden Retrievers don't develop the severe peeling and "Huge flakes" that have often been discussed here. Most "affected" show nothing more than what appears to be excess dander. 

Here is a photo from a carrier to carrier breeding done years ago (long before testing was available). Two of the pups in the photo are affected. The symptoms demonstrated here are as severe as they ever got. (These guys are all old and gray now.)


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I just see a box of 5 puppies looking at the camera. Is this the photo you meant to post? Does this mean then that ich is nothing to worry about?


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## rooroch (Nov 7, 2012)

Grit has it. Confirmed with DNA testing when he was 5 months old. Breeder said she had never heard of it before!! He was flaking at 8 weeks when I got him but as he is very "white" it did not show much.
As you would see from my posts on the subject (mostly in 2013) I find I can control the dander side of things with grain free, fish based food. I use Acana Pacifica as Grit tolerates it well. He has a delicate stomach which could be related but apart from the dander, no problems at all. I have to comb or slicker brush him every day to "collect" all the bits of loose skin which are now dark grey in colour.
I do not bath him as I cannot lift him and have no shower but he goes in the river twice every day summer and winter. I am sure the cold clear water does him good. He always lies down in the water.
He does not tolerate fish oil added to his food so has linseed and evening primrose capsules instead.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> I just see a box of 5 puppies looking at the camera. Is this the photo you meant to post? Does this mean then that ich is nothing to worry about?


You really can't see how severe it is? 

The two pups with their noses down over the side of the box are affected.

Seriously, most people don't think anything of it other than the dog needs a bath. That's why this is such a widespread condition in the breed.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Swampcollie,
So what do you think now that we can test for ich and eliminate carrier + carrier breedings? As you can see from rooroch's post, that person's dog has real issues.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Alaska7133 said:


> Swampcollie,
> So what do you think now that we can test for ich and eliminate carrier + carrier breedings? As you can see from rooroch's post, that person's dog has real issues.


I do think that it can be more serious in European lines. I am not that certain that we are dealing with only one variety of icth, or that there aren't other factors that impact the development or severity of it, such as a suppressor gene or something in the environment or an autoimmune condition, for example. I am not entirely convinced that the test is necessarily telling us what we think it is.

If we have been breeding carrier to carrier, carrier to affected for years and years, I would think the issue would be more widespread than it is, and more severe, at least in the US. I do remember the "cradle crap" of the 70's, which possibly was ich. To my knowledge, it never developed into anything more severe and went away by the time puppies went home.

The only affected dog I have personally met, is a 12 year old male of US lineage who began showing signs about 2 years ago. In winter when it is dry and the furnace is on, he will sometimes leave a very few, fine, small "flakes" just barely visible on the dark hardwood floor. That's it.

I'm not denying that there are some really gross cases of it out there, but there are terrible cases of dogs with severe allergies, epilepsy, etc. Am I watching to see what happens? Yes. Am I carefully planning my breedings with an eye to health and longevity? Sure, just as I always have. Do I insist on testing for icth? No, I don't.

I did test my girl who is half European and whose daddy is a carrier and she is clear. She is being bred to an affected boy. The puppies should be carriers with no Affecteds.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Sometimes we have to take the good with the good and the bad with the bad. Limiting our gene pool is hard to do. Nobody wants to have a dog with problems. 

My boy Reilly has severe elbow displaysia, mild hip displaysia, corneal dystrophy that has become corneal degeneration, just started having seizures, and has issues digesting food because of his pancreas not working correctly. His breeder will not speak to me about any of his issues. She has bred many many dogs. She is very popular in the golden community and is a CCA judge. Reilly has many dogs in his breeding that we all know, he's not some obscure backyard bred dog. He is everything that breeders should be trying to avoid breeding into our lines. The only wonderful thing about Reilly is his temperament and his birdiness. His breeding is the cross roads of what we don't want to see happening in golden retrievers.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

You have to understand what the test means (and yes I do test my dogs).

Testing "affected" means that genetic markers are present that indicate the "conditions exist" for the dog to develop the disease. It doesn't necessarily mean that the dog will develop it, just that genetically speaking the dominoes are stacked so that it could. (That's why some consider genetic testing "junk science".)


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> Swampcollie,
> So what do you think now that we can test for ich and eliminate carrier + carrier breedings? As you can see from rooroch's post, that person's dog has real issues.


In the short term I don't think you're going to eliminate all carrier to carrier breedings, there are just too many untested dogs. The big challenge is educating the public as to what the information in a genetic test report means. You would not believe the number of people who mistakenly believe that "Carrier" status for some condition means the dog is afflicted with it, when that is simply not the case.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Thank you for that clarification!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

sometimes when I tell people that Tito is a carrier, they will ask me if that means he will get it at some point. I have to explain to them that it's quite the opposite, it means he will never get it.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Thought I'd share this from someone who bought a puppy from me regarding their previous dog that was affected by ICT:
_Molly did have Ichythiosis. It was horrible for her. Her skin came off in big flakes. Brushing her meant an avalanche of skin "snow". It was disgusting, we had skin everywhere. Since we have hard word floors it was very obvious how much it affected her. She was always itchy, she was miserable. She was on prednisone daily to help make her more comfortable, but she still suffered. Every time we tried to wean her off it was clear she could not tolerate being in her own skin. It also made her fur very greasy. We had to bathe her with dandruff shampoo (per the vet school recommendation) to help her shed some skin. I can tell you that since there is now a test for it, it would be a requirement for me to purchase another puppy. When you told us you tested for it, we felt good knowing we wouldn't have to see another dog suffer and shorten her life due to daily long term prednisone use._


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

My Toby was affected, too, and he left big skin flakes everywhere, too. It was nasty looking, and I would absolutely avoid getting another affected dog.


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## jlgsak (Jul 13, 2017)

*Unethical Breeding ... ICH can be awful for you and your pet!*

I had a sweet boy (golden, Murphy) that had ICH. Terribly severe! Lots of daily care with creams, meds, ear cleaning, itching, etc. He lived to 12, but only was ever about 50% controlled at best. This is very unethical of breeders to do! Unless you've had to deal with your pets' discomfort, the cost, and the hard work to keep them semi-comfortable, most people would agree. Cyclosporine. thyroid meds. allergy injections. Daily prednisone creams, benadryl, ear cleaning daily (yeast infections), smelly, expensive food & meds... Get your dog tested for ICH.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

jlgsak said:


> I had a sweet boy (golden, Murphy) that had ICH. Terribly severe! Lots of daily care with creams, meds, ear cleaning, itching, etc. He lived to 12, but only was ever about 50% controlled at best. This is very unethical of breeders to do! Unless you've had to deal with your pets' discomfort, the cost, and the hard work to keep them semi-comfortable, most people would agree. Cyclosporine. thyroid meds. allergy injections. Daily prednisone creams, benadryl, ear cleaning daily (yeast infections), smelly, expensive food & meds... Get your dog tested for ICH.


It would be most helpful if you posted your dog's k9data link.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

jlgsak said:


> I had a sweet boy (golden, Murphy) that had ICH. Terribly severe! Lots of daily care with creams, meds, ear cleaning, itching, etc. He lived to 12, but only was ever about 50% controlled at best. This is very unethical of breeders to do! Unless you've had to deal with your pets' discomfort, the cost, and the hard work to keep them semi-comfortable, most people would agree. Cyclosporine. thyroid meds. allergy injections. Daily prednisone creams, benadryl, ear cleaning daily (yeast infections), smelly, expensive food & meds... Get your dog tested for ICH.


It sounds as though your dog had other issues in addition to the Ichthyosis.


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