# Experience with Cad Farms Goldens and other breeders in the mid-Atlantic



## A.Ware1 (Jul 4, 2013)

I was wondering if anyone has had experience with a couple of breeders along the east coast, particularly in the mid-Atlantic region. I have been in contact with many breeders over the past couple of months and it has been very hard for me to find a reputable breeder that has a price range that I can afford. However, because the price is lower, I feel that there is a need to verify that these are good breeders and wanted a little insight from individuals who have had experiences with these breeders in the past.

Cad Farm Goldens, Calvert County, MD-                   CAD Farm Proudly Presents their "Golden Retrievers" - Home
Sunshine Goldens, Morgantown, PA- Sunshine Golden Retrievers - Home
Golden Rock Farm, Goochland, VA- Home

I am looking for a companion as opposed to a show dog and would love it if anyone can provide me with other reputable breeders in the area.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I wouldn't consider any of them reputable.. Cadfarm at least does the big four health clearances. If you choose to get a puppy from them, be sure the parents are at least 2 and have all four clearances (eye, heart, hips, elbows). Looks like some were bred younger on prelims.

The others don't seem to do clearances at all.. I would pass. 


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Agree with above OP..none of the above, however the one with least amount of "risk" is Cad Farm. if you can truly verify clearances that would not be as bad as the other two. The last one Golden Rock Farm has prices that are in the reputable breeder range ..i thought you were looking at lower priced pups?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Well....

Cad Farm Goldens - If you go specifically by information available between their website, K9data, and offa.org.... only one of their females has had hips/elbows cleared. The male dog and other females have not. The male has prelims, but those do not count as clearances. And something else I'm thinking as well.... the male is a carrier for ichythosis (sp), which is a pretty bad skin condition. But the females that he is being bred to have not been tested for ichythosis. Which means that if the females are carriers as well, that means the pups are likely to have issues. Or that's how my simple brain works, right? 

Sunshine Goldens - no pedigree information available, looks like a byb.

Golden Rock Farm - no pedigree information available, looks like a byb.

I would look at those pictures of those goldens, setup, pedigree information, and compare it to the following links. You should see the difference immediately. Not all puppies from a good breeder are going to be show dogs and will be placed in companion homes as opposed to show homes.

These breeders are not in your area, but should give you an idea of what to be looking for.....  

American type -

SunKissed Golden Retrievers

English type -

Trowsnest Golden Retrievers


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

You can contact these GR clubs for puppy referrals in your area:

http://www.chesapeakegrc.org/

http://www.pvgrc.org/poop/poop.htm

Onmyway is right.. $1100 is in the range (although it is probably on the low side) of what a good hobby breeder would charge for a companion pup from show parents and all four clearances on every dog for several generations back.


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## A.Ware1 (Jul 4, 2013)

Though I am looking for puppies that are lower in price, I am willing to go up to $1250, unfortunately I would need to save up and would have to plan further ahead for a puppy of that price. 

Thank you all on your input for these breeders. I was feeling a bit wary of all of them and it seems that feeling is justified. I have contacted a couple of the organizations referred to me by the GRCA website and I am looking over those breeders now. 

Has anyone had experience with Eldorado Golens? Eldorado Goldens - Richmond Virginia Area


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A.Ware1 said:


> Though I am looking for puppies that are lower in price, I am willing to go up to $1250, unfortunately I would need to save up and would have to plan further ahead for a puppy of that price.


$1250 should put you in range of a good breeder. Some great breeders take larger losses on litters in order to be picky about homes and sell dogs in that range.

One really important part of the purchase price is the clearances. Clearances are worth hundreds, potentially thousands of dollars, so a fully-cleared dog at $1400 is a bargain relative to an uncleared dog at $400. The big four clearances buy you a lot more than $1000 worth of risk reduction. And that's purely from a financial standpoint. Obviously, they reduce—not eliminate, but significantly reduce—the risk of suffering for your beloved pet.

It is well worth saving. Purchase price is a fraction of the real costs of owning a dog, so saving a little longer in order to buy yourself some smart risk reduction is the cheapest route you can go.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MercyMom on here has an Eldorado golden. She's lovely!


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Harry is from CAD Farms. We got him before I started reading this forum and learned what to look for in a breeder. That being said, our experience with CAD Farms was a pleasant one. Both parents had all four clearances -- although his father's were prelims at the time. His mother has since been retired and is no longer listed on the website. I can attest that the facilities were immaculate, and the breeder spends a tremendous amount of time socializing the puppies and keeping in touch with the prospective owners. She always returns my emails promptly and is interested in keeping track of Harry's growth and development. If I knew then what I know now, would I still have proceeded with CAD Farms? It's hard to say. I know now to look for solid clearances and titles after the parents' names. It says a lot when a breeder takes the time to compete with his/her dogs. Most of the other breeders we contacted -- My Buddy Goldens near Blacksburg and a few others -- were significantly more than the $1250 we paid for Harry (most were around the $2000 range). However, I can't imagine our house now without Harry in it. He is an intelligent, healthy, lovable little guy -- we wouldn't trade him for the world.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I was looking into Eldorado when I was on the hunt. That is a reputable breeder as is Lycinan Lycinan Goldens- Quality AKC Golden Retrievers- Harford County, Maryland. 
Not sure what their price points are...i know they are above $1,000. 
What is your time frame to get your puppy? ..in an ideal situation that is!


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

A.Ware1 said:


> Though I am looking for puppies that are lower in price, I am willing to go up to $1250, unfortunately I would need to save up and would have to plan further ahead for a puppy of that price.
> 
> Thank you all on your input for these breeders. I was feeling a bit wary of all of them and it seems that feeling is justified. I have contacted a couple of the organizations referred to me by the GRCA website and I am looking over those breeders now.
> 
> Has anyone had experience with Eldorado Golens? Eldorado Goldens - Richmond Virginia Area


From what I know, Eldorado is a completely different (and much better) class of breeder than others you have mentioned. I'd put them in a new thread and watch the responses roll in.


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## A.Ware1 (Jul 4, 2013)

In an ideal situation I would've wanted to pick the puppy before the end of the summer, but it is looking like I will have to wait. I was worried about getting the dog later in the year because I may have to change jobs and fear that the puppy would be left alone in the house for long periods of time. Currently I am working part-time at a Petco which is ideal because I generally work night shifts and weekends and I get discounts on all pet products that I would need for my future pup. In addition to that arrangement, my mom works with a school and she is home during the summers which practically guaranteed that the puppy would never be left alone. 

However, I did tell my manager about this issue and he offered to see if their were any managerial positions open in the corporation that I could look into. So, ideally at this point I would be looking for a puppy that will be born in the late summer/early fall (August-September) and will be going home in late fall/early winter, preferably before Christmas.


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Timing was a big issue for us as well. It is one of the reasons we went with CAD Farms and didn't wait for My Buddy Goldens. I definitely would agree with GoldensGirl about Eldorado and My Buddy Goldens being a completely different class of breeder. There are My Buddy Goldens' dogs in El Dorado's lines and vice versa. Dogs from both breeders are top competitors and exemplify the breed standard. I believe the My Buddy Goldens' breeder is a vet and now teaches at Virginia Tech University. I think I remember reading somewhere that her first golden was an El Dorado golden. I would love to own a dog from either breeder.

We have no regrets about getting Harry from CAD Farms. We knew we would not be competing with our new puppy (although Harry has shown a knack for agility training). We simply wanted a smart, healthy, lovable, loyal companion. Harry has exceeded our expectations on all fronts (just don't read my frustrated posts about his teenage subbornness). I am assuming Harry and this upcoming litter will be half siblings and share the same father. If you want more information about our experience with CAD Farms, feel free to PM me.


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## 1wdmcdonn1 (Jul 18, 2014)

I have a bit of an update to this somewhat dated thread which is also related to the other thread on selecting a breeder. I have been in touch with Cad Farms and have been impressed with their responsiveness and detailed pedigree info provided in light of another member expressing concern about lack of pedigree info on many dogs. Although one might be concerned about the lack of certifications for the grandparent lines, I believe this is due to them being from europe. As a result of my inquiry, the pedigrees, which were due to be updated, have been done for the current two dams, one of which was not yet on. Current price is $1750 and two litters are expected in mid/late September.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I personally would still be very concerned with clearance issues in the current parent generation. Of the girls they have listed as mothers; Sasha 12/2010, Chloe 9/2011, Isis 11/2012 and Lily 10/20/2013, only Sasha seems to have full clearances. I say seems because I can't check the OVC and I have no idea who OFC is. Chloe Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is missing a hip clearance and if you look at the K9Data change history she was listed as dysplastic at one point before it was changed and this dog is now locked from any further edits. Isis is under age and can not have either Hip or Elbow clearances at all. Lily is still a puppy and is not even a year old yet so the only actual clearance she could have would be eyes. 

All and all not what you would expect in the clearance department to justify the high price. For the same or slightly more, a puppy buyer could get full clearances for generations from a breeder that competes in one or more venues and selects a different stud to complement each of their girls.


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## 1wdmcdonn1 (Jul 18, 2014)

*Updated Information*

Thanks; I have a lengthy e-mail explanation from CAD but am not sure whether it is appropriate to post it here. What is the protocol?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

1wdmcdonn1 said:


> Thanks; I have a lengthy e-mail explanation from CAD but am not sure whether it is appropriate to post it here. What is the protocol?



I sent you a PM regarding your question.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

LJack said:


> I personally would still be very concerned with clearance issues in the current parent generation. Of the girls they have listed as mothers; Sasha 12/2010, Chloe 9/2011, Isis 11/2012 and Lily 10/20/2013, only Sasha seems to have full clearances. I say seems because I can't check the OVC and I have no idea who OFC is. Chloe Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is missing a hip clearance and if you look at the K9Data change history she was listed as dysplastic at one point before it was changed and this dog is now locked from any further edits. Isis is under age and can not have either Hip or Elbow clearances at all. Lily is still a puppy and is not even a year old yet so the only actual clearance she could have would be eyes.
> 
> All and all not what you would expect in the clearance department to justify the high price. For the same or slightly more, a puppy buyer could get full clearances for generations from a breeder that competes in one or more venues and selects a different stud to complement each of their girls.


Chloe was bred by the Winklers (harold/lea)--do a forum search & internet search for those names. Not a breeder I would be obtaining a dog from for a breeding program. The fact that she's being bred w/o a hip clearance is concerning, even more so if she's in fact dysplastic.

Breeders on the fringe, are good at the sales--but really, what reputable golden breeder is using the "whitest golden" description as their selling point. Also, ask a reputable breeder to describe the strengths/weaknesses of the dogs they're breeding and it won't consist of "*...a beautiful head, long ears and a superior thick, shiny, white coat with fluffy feathers*" Makes me wonder if the breeder has a true understanding of the breed. Moreover, these "English" goldens are really from Eastern Europe--championships there aren't the same as an AKC championship here. Lastly, puppy picking is at 4 weeks--way too young to determine the personality of the pup. So much for matching up pups to the right family.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

LJack said:


> ...Of the girls they have listed as mothers; Sasha 12/2010, Chloe 9/2011, Isis 11/2012 and Lily 10/20/2013, only Sasha seems to have full clearances. I say seems because I can't check the OVC


The girls are too young to have OVC clearances. OVC stopped accepting xrays for clearances on Oct 31, 2011. Dogs must have been at least 18 mths old by that time. So any dog born after May 1, 2010 is to young to have clearances through OVC.


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## Doglover888 (Sep 23, 2014)

Do not get a dog from CAD Farms. I purchased a puppy and later found out that the mother listed was not the actual mother of the dog. The actual mother of the puppy did not have her clearances. DO NOT USE THIS BREEDER!!!!


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## Daisy123 (Jan 26, 2009)

*cad goldens*

Does anyone recommend CAD Farm Golden Retrievers? I am looking for a female in the md dc VA area? Any other recommendations?

Thanks for your help


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I posted on your other thread. What are you looking for with a pup? There are numerous great breeders in the VA/MD area that has generations of clearances & competes w/ their goldens. Have you contacted the Potomac Valley GR Club?


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## Daisy123 (Jan 26, 2009)

*Breeders*

Yes I contacted them. Do you know of any good breeders in md dc VA area? Thanks!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Delmarva, Lycinan, Eldorado, I would start w/ these, if they don't have litters in the near term ask if they know of any who do. Did you get a reply from the PVGRC breeder referral? If you're willing to go into PA, there are even more.


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## Daisy123 (Jan 26, 2009)

*breeders*

Which PA breeders do you recommended?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Here you go...http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ever-breeder-puppy/325602-breeders-md-pa.html


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## Daisy123 (Jan 26, 2009)

Does anyone recommend Stormy Point Golden in VA?


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## otyler46 (Mar 29, 2015)

Megora said:


> Well....
> 
> Cad Farm Goldens - If you go specifically by information available between their website, K9data, and offa.org.... only one of their females has had hips/elbows cleared. The male dog and other females have not. The male has prelims, but those do not count as clearances. And something else I'm thinking as well.... the male is a carrier for ichythosis (sp), which is a pretty bad skin condition. But the females that he is being bred to have not been tested for ichythosis. Which means that if the females are carriers as well, that means the pups are likely to have issues. Or that's how my simple brain works, right?


How do you know if the male is a carrier for ichthyosis? I have looked into purchasing a puppy from Cad Farms and have been trying to do my due diligence and research. I have searched everywhere and can't find the male listed an an ichthyosis carrier. Could someone please show me where that is, as I must have missed it? Thanks.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxDoglover888 said:


> Do not get a dog from CAD Farms. I purchased a puppy and later found out that the mother listed was not the actual mother of the dog. The actual mother of the puppy did not have her clearances. DO NOT USE THIS BREEDER!!!!


There's also this problem to consider.


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## otyler46 (Mar 29, 2015)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxDoglover888 said:


> Do not get a dog from CAD Farms. I purchased a puppy and later found out that the mother listed was not the actual mother of the dog. The actual mother of the puppy did not have her clearances. DO NOT USE THIS BREEDER!!!!





ArchersMom said:


> There's also this problem to consider.


The breeder lists the mother as Sasha in the email correspondence and if we end up visiting I will verify that she is in fact the mother. Still just want to find out how that other person that posted discovered that the male was an ichthyosis carrier. That information would help with me researching this breeder as well as other breeders that I am considering.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

I'd run away from CAD Farms. She has four bitches and one sire. I'll bet every time a bitch comes into heat, she get bred over and over by the same sire. Sounds like good money to me! That way she gets to lower her price and undercut the good breeders. No showing expenses, no field work or titles, nothing. Some of the bitches don't have all their clearances. The conformation looks crappy from the pics at least. But then again, they are the rare "cream" goldens that are SO desirable to newbies. I'd call her a puppy mill.


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## otyler46 (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm really not looking for a show dog or hunting dog. I'm just looking for a companion that has a good chance of being healthy. I have reached out to all the respected and recommended breeders that have been listed on this forum (lycinan, eldorado, delmarva, sunkota, etc) in the MD/VA area but they are either not having a litter that is ready to go home in the May/June/July range, haven't responded, or won't sell to me because I live in an apartment. Early summer is the best time for me to get a puppy as it would give me the most amount of time to dedicate to training it. I'm just trying to see if there is a way to verify if the male is an ichthyosis carrier. I haven't put a deposit down or anything. I'm just trying to research as much as I can. Thanks.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

otyler46 said:


> I'm really not looking for a show dog or hunting dog. I'm just looking for a companion that has a good chance of being healthy. I have reached out to all the respected and recommended breeders that have been listed on this forum (lycinan, eldorado, delmarva, sunkota, etc) in the MD/VA area but they are either not having a litter that is ready to go home in the May/June/July range, haven't responded, or won't sell to me because I live in an apartment. Early summer is the best time for me to get a puppy as it would give me the most amount of time to dedicate to training it. I'm just trying to see if there is a way to verify if the male is an ichthyosis carrier. I haven't put a deposit down or anything. I'm just trying to research as much as I can. Thanks.


 
Thanks at least for caring about the breed enough to research and try to support a good hobby breeder. Most good breeders are very fussy about where their pups go, and living in an apartment can be difficult with a puppy and very active young dog. I personally have my home set up with not only a fenced yard, but no exit gate into the yard. The only way out into my dog yard is through the house, with a dedicated door. I also have indoor/outdoor kennels just outside the dedicated door, and the mud room inside this door has crates set up and all the supplies like leashes and cabinets with cleaners right there. Anyway, even with all of this convenience it's still a difficult task housetraining my new puppy. My senior Newf Rafe is very good about helping, and will take puppy outside for me. He housetrained my other Newf boy with really little work from me. The pups just follow big brother Rafe and do as he does :. But still, puppies are a lot of work, and can make a lot of noise. Is there anyway you could move into a house with a yard that could be fenced? I changed my home and way of life because having dogs is really important to me. I even changed all my flooring to stone tile because the Newfies love to lie on the cool surface . So anyway, if you really want to get a dog from an amazing breeder, you may want to work on getting out of an apartment.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Well then I'd say this breeder isn't likely going to produce the healthiest puppies.

Here's the dads cleatances, which are out of date: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

And here's Sasha's: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Apparently her sire was 9 months old when she was born??


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## otyler46 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thank you for your responses. So sasha was born 12/4/10 and the sire was 3/18/09 so the sire was a year and 9 months when she was born. Either way, I will definitely have to rethink Cad Farm and research more. 

But really my main question is how did that one poster know that the male dog was a carrier for ichthyosis? I can't find it anywhere. I would just like to know how to recreate/replicate the research so that I can perform checks going forward.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

One of the parents or grandparents may have been a carrier or affected. You'll have to research the pedigree on OFA and K9 data

ETA: Ichthyosis is very common in the english lines. Not as much in American lines.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

In answer to your query about ichthyosis, carrier status- I can't find anywhere that he is a carrier. I looked at parents and offspring listed on OFA. Maybe whoever said he was a carrier could tell us where they saw that. It is pretty common with the European dogs, though, so odd that having done prcd/pra etc they did not do ichthyosis while they were at it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Robin - that post (I assume mine) was from 2 years ago. I'm not sure what I saw back then or what changes (as listed on K9Data or even the breeder's website) have occurred since then. It may be the dog was initially listed as a carrier and this was changed on K9Data/website or who knows. 

I would not have stated something without a basis though. I gather I saw something at the time... somewhere.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm sure you did see it or you wouldn't have posted it. I can see on OFA his half sib on sire's side didn't pass elbows and a full sib has DJD. And actually f you look at his sire, I'd seriously worry about elbows down from him. I only see on DNA test for ichthyosis on OFA, and it was a half sib. I DO see where the owner at one time had ichtyosis on his k9data page by looking at change history. He's not listed on goldendna.org.


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## otyler46 (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks for your help everyone.


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## 1wdmcdonn1 (Jul 18, 2014)

Hi: When I was searching for a pup, I contacted many breeders including Carol Oswald at CAD which was reasonably close to me. I was impressed with her openness and willingness to answer a wide range of general and pointed questions and I was on her list for a pup. I got the impression she feels there is some amount of misinformation out there, including some post on this site and suggest that you contact her directly and ask her your specific questions so you can judge for yourself. Don't know what the current litter status is since her litters were in the Sept time frame. 

Also, I was in touch with and had many conversations with Jim Cohen at Briarwood Golden Retrievers (Virginia Beach). I was impressed with his knowledge and passion for Goldens. I was interested in a pup in the Oct/Nov time frame and he had no litter on the way then. Recently, he e-mailed me about a litter in this current time frame, but I already had my pup. I recommend him as a possible resource for you. Good luck in your search.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Briarwood is a breeder who does their clearances and makes no effort to hoodwink anyone. If anything, Jim's MORE than open, and what he tells is truthful.
I think most people come here to ask those who are more knowledgeable about researching pedigrees, clearances, etc and who realize they can be fooled by a posh site and all the buzz words. They don't want to judge for themselves as they know they would be judging from a place of inexperience. Many people can ask a question, 'does your dog have all their clearances?' and get the answer 'we had everything checked' and not know that the person answering means they got a vet to look at preliminary xrays (or even worse, watch the dog move) and listen to the dog's heart- and they feel they got the answer... but it wasn't an accurate answer, nor was it truthful. But when someone doesn't know what a clearance even is, they want to trust the person on the other end of the phone line and believe what they're told. 
When they come here, it is to have independent verification of clearances, and opinion on the story line on the website (ie 'rare English crème, or no cancer in European dogs or some other line of baloney).


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## 1wdmcdonn1 (Jul 18, 2014)

Fair enough. 
And yes, that's why I mentioned Briarwood.


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## DoreenB (Sep 19, 2014)

1wdmcdonn1 said:


> Hi: When I was searching for a pup, I contacted many breeders including Carol Oswald at CAD which was reasonably close to me. I was impressed with her openness and willingness to answer a wide range of general and pointed questions and I was on her list for a pup. I got the impression she feels there is some amount of misinformation out there, including some post on this site and suggest that you contact her directly and ask her your specific questions so you can judge for yourself. Don't know what the current litter status is since her litters were in the Sept time frame.
> 
> (Quote)
> 
> I totally agree that she should have the opportunity to provide a rebuttal. I talked to her and found her more than willing to respond to my pointed questions


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Cad Farm does all 4 OFA clearances suggested for their breed; are CHIC certified and their information can be confirmed on the OFA website. The breeder does not test for Thyroid or Ichthyosis. All adult breeding dogs (over the age of 2 years as OFA finals are done after 24 months) are microchipped for positive identification purposes. The facilities are open to the public and breeder is available to answer any questions or concerns. All dogs are listed with their AKC registration numbers so confirmation of pedigree and clearances is easily obtained. Females are bred only once per year, and pups are Vet checked.


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## Jud (Aug 10, 2015)

A.Ware1 said:


> I was wondering if anyone has had experience with a couple of breeders along the east coast, particularly in the mid-Atlantic region. I have been in contact with many breeders over the past couple of months and it has been very hard for me to find a reputable breeder that has a price range that I can afford. However, because the price is lower, I feel that there is a need to verify that these are good breeders and wanted a little insight from individuals who have had experiences with these breeders in the past.
> 
> Cad Farm Goldens, Calvert County, MD- ***************** CAD Farm*Proudly Presents*their*"Golden Retrievers" - Home
> Sunshine Goldens, Morgantown, PA- Sunshine Golden Retrievers - Home
> ...


I can't recommend enough in NJ Jansun Goldens - Jan Tucker Jessberger. Besides having all clearances and having you come for a 'meet and greet' to see her pact (who are beauties with two national champions) and for her to 'meet' you... Jan...
..is the real deal when it comes to naturally being an exemplary breeder! I am bringing home a puppy from her show dogs and like you, I wanted specifically a 24/7 companion as I lost my girl in July. If 'that' puppy wasn't going to be in the litter...Jan was going to have me wait till the next one. (I think it is mid-winter...the next litter). She hasn't had a litter in a long time and then...two happened within months. Jan knew the exact pup I was going to lock eyes with and 'just know' before I even arrived to see the pups a few weeks ago. She is that good. All the right credentials but most..she wants to meet you..before the adoption process even gets going! That is what you want in a good Breeder. Let me add about cost. We got Cara in 03 from a top breeder (Beryl Scaggs in DE) for $1300 which was very high. Cara did not cost us a penny in health bills over 12 years that i saw my other friends groaning about. Thus...I am very happy to pay a higher price if it is because of the quality and work that the breeder is producing. Good luck. 

Cara-Mia 7/3-7/15 Daddy's forever Heart-Golden


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Carmel said:


> I'd run away from CAD Farms. She has four bitches and one sire. I'll bet every time a bitch comes into heat, she get bred over and over by the same sire. Sounds like good money to me! That way she gets to lower her price and undercut the good breeders. No showing expenses, no field work or titles, nothing. Some of the bitches don't have all their clearances. The conformation looks crappy from the pics at least. But then again, they are the rare "cream" goldens that are SO desirable to newbies. I'd call her a puppy mill.


All dogs listed on their website have the AKC registration numbers available for confirmation of clearance and pedigrees. The 3 female's pedigrees are selected to compliment the stud male's traits. The females are only bred 1 time per year after they have received their final OFA clearances.(Must be at least 2 years for the final OFA clearances). The females are retired by age 5 Years. Most are imported from Champion Show Bloodlines. Breeder does not show or do field trials, instead concentrates their efforts on breeding healthy dogs with good confirmation, coats and personalities. Prices are set so that a family can afford them, and not to gouge clients. Nutrition, Clean Environment, Knowledge of the breed, and lots of TLC are essential for a healthy dog. I would NOT consider this breeding practice to be a Puppy Mill. All facilities are open to the public and breeder is available to answer any questions or concerns. An intelligent client will do their research and select a future member of the family based on facts and personal experience, rather than on opinions that cannot be substantiated.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

A.Ware1 said:


> I was wondering if anyone has had experience with a couple of breeders along the east coast, particularly in the mid-Atlantic region. I have been in contact with many breeders over the past couple of months and it has been very hard for me to find a reputable breeder that has a price range that I can afford. However, because the price is lower, I feel that there is a need to verify that these are good breeders and wanted a little insight from individuals who have had experiences with these breeders in the past.
> 
> Cad Farm Goldens, Calvert County, MD- ***************** CAD Farm*Proudly Presents*their*"Golden Retrievers" - Home
> Sunshine Goldens, Morgantown, PA- Sunshine Golden Retrievers - Home
> ...


 Price is a factor, however OFA clearances and pedigrees can out weigh the initial cost. Good clearances can defer Vet bills later on as the pup is not as likely to develop conditions that the parents have been tested for. Other factors are a clean environment, good nutrition, training and general care. Open to public inspection and "meet and greets" are a good indication of breeder ethics. Do your research and trust your own opinion as there is so many misinformed folks out there.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I wouldn't consider any of them reputable.. Cadfarm at least does the big four health clearances. If you choose to get a puppy from them, be sure the parents are at least 2 and have all four clearances (eye, heart, hips, elbows). Looks like some were bred younger on prelims.
> 
> The others don't seem to do clearances at all.. I would pass.
> 
> ...


All Cad Farm adult dogs are bred once their final clearances are received. The final OFA certifications are obtained after the age of 2 years. OFA certifications can be confirmed on the OFA website, and pedigrees on the K9 data website. Females are retired at age 5 years and only bred 1 time per year. All pups are Vet checked. Good nutrition, clean environment, lots of TLC and socializing are additional important factors to consider. Public inspection and personality pairing is something else to consider.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

otyler46 said:


> How do you know if the male is a carrier for ichthyosis? I have looked into purchasing a puppy from Cad Farms and have been trying to do my due diligence and research. I have searched everywhere and can't find the male listed an an ichthyosis carrier. Could someone please show me where that is, as I must have missed it? Thanks.


 Cad Farm Goldens does OFA Hip, Elbow, Heart and Eye clearances. All dogs are microchipped for identification purposes. They do not test for Thyroid or Ichthyosis, so I'm not sure where that misinformation came from.:wavey:


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Megora said:


> Well....
> 
> Cad Farm Goldens - If you go specifically by information available between their website, K9data, and offa.org.... only one of their females has had hips/elbows cleared. The male dog and other females have not. The male has prelims, but those do not count as clearances. And something else I'm thinking as well.... the male is a carrier for ichythosis (sp), which is a pretty bad skin condition. But the females that he is being bred to have not been tested for ichythosis. Which means that if the females are carriers as well, that means the pups are likely to have issues. Or that's how my simple brain works, right?
> 
> ...



All dogs from Cad Farm Goldens have all 4 recommended final OFA clearances, please check the OFA website for confirmation. Cad Farm does NOT test for Thyroid or Ichthyosis, so not sure where that misinformation was obtained. Pedigrees can be confirmed by going to the K9 data website and all AKC registration numbers are listed. Photo gallery pictures are visual proof of good breeding practices.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

SheetsSM said:


> Chloe was bred by the Winklers (harold/lea)--do a forum search & internet search for those names. Not a breeder I would be obtaining a dog from for a breeding program.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Megora said:


> Well....
> 
> Cad Farm Goldens - If you go specifically by information available between their website, K9data, and offa.org.... only one of their females has had hips/elbows cleared. The male dog and other females have not. The male has prelims, but those do not count as clearances. And something else I'm thinking as well.... the male is a carrier for ichythosis (sp), which is a pretty bad skin condition. But the females that he is being bred to have not been tested for ichythosis. Which means that if the females are carriers as well, that means the pups are likely to have issues. Or that's how my simple brain works, right?
> 
> ...


*Cad Farm Goldens does all 4 OFA suggested health certifications on all of their breeding adults. The adult females are bred with final certifications and retired at age 5 years. Cad Farm does not test for Thyroid or Ichthyosis. All health certifications can be verified on the OFA website and all pedigrees on the K9 date website. Microchipped adults make identification verifiable.*


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Am I the only one who finds it odd that member cadfarm talks about Cad Farm Goldens in 3rd tense, instead of 1st tense?


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Doglover888 said:


> Do not get a dog from CAD Farms. I purchased a puppy and later found out that the mother listed was not the actual mother of the dog. The actual mother of the puppy did not have her clearances. DO NOT USE THIS BREEDER!!!!


 *There was a litter that had the wrong mother information on the litter papers; this unintentional mistake was corrected with AKC and clients were notified. A refund was provided and all but this client was satisfied, can't please everyone. Mother is in fact OFA certified in hips, elbows, eyes and heart.
*


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

cadfarm said:


> All dogs from Cad Farm Goldens have all 4 recommended final OFA clearances, please check the OFA website for confirmation. ... Photo gallery pictures are visual proof of good breeding practices.


This isn't exactly what I found and as for good breeding practices, using the same sire for every litter is an odd choice unless you're just raising puppies to sell for money. And raising litters out in a kennel after "the first couple weeks" as you list on your site, isn't my ideal situation for purchasing a pet.

The first bitch listed on your "mothers' page, Chloe has no hip clearance listed. Why not? Her eye clearance hasn't been updated in a couple years and her sire has no clearances listed for anything except his heart. Why? One of Chloe's siblings has mild hip dysplasia and one sibling has degenerative elbow disease.


Orthopedic Foundation for Animals CHLOE OFA

The second mother listed has all her clearances, but her father has none and her mother has two. Why?

The third mother, Chrystal, has clearances but nothing listed for her sire, dam or siblings. That makes it hard to get a picture of what runs in her family.

The fourth mother dog listed is Lily and she does not have final clearances for hips or elbows, they are prelims. 

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals LILY OFA

The only sire advertised, Mr. Zac, does have clearances, however his eye clearance has not been updated since 2011 and this is required to be updated every year.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Crickets......?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

cadfarm said:


> Cad Farm Goldens does OFA Hip, Elbow, Heart and Eye clearances. All dogs are microchipped for identification purposes. They do not test for Thyroid or Ichthyosis, so I'm not sure where that misinformation came from.:wavey:


Why in the world would you not test for ichthyosis, when your stud dog has at least a 50% chance of being a carrier? His sire is a carrier, and his dam has produced carriers when bred to another stud dog, so she too could be a carrier. 
If you have a likelihood of producing disease and you can avoid it, why not do all you can to produce healthy puppies? You are breeding a type Golden that has upwards of 75% carriers, so it is for sure a problem in the gene pool you are swimming in. 
And you originally had a thyroid OFA input on k9data on his page there, which wasn't on OFA.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

BTW you have the same bitch pictured on k9data as Sasha and as Crystal.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

rabernet said:


> Am I the only one who finds it odd that member cadfarm talks about Cad Farm Goldens in 3rd tense, instead of 1st tense?


*CAD FARM GOLDENS is a Kennel name not a formal name. Obviously Cadfarm is the owner CAD FARM GOLDENS. All information is written in a format that in the event it is copied and pasted the data is complete. Thank you for noticing.*


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

What's funny is every time the breeder refers to herself in the 3rd person she's just making sure google has this thread pop up just below the farm website--if one is trying to paint themselves in a positive light, continuing to self highlight the misinformation & holes in the breeding program seems counterproductive to me.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

nolefan said:


> This isn't exactly what I found and as for good breeding practices, using the same sire for every litter is an odd choice unless you're just raising puppies to sell for money. And raising litters out in a kennel after "the first couple weeks" as you list on your site, isn't my ideal situation for purchasing a pet.
> 
> *The nursery that the pups go into after 3-4 weeks is a temperature controlled, air filtered, finished indoor room, not an outside kennel. It is a clean area, and the puppies have ample space to play safely. They are socialized, play with their toys and supervised all day and go outside, weather permitting. This area is open to visitation and inspection. CAD FARM welcomes your personal visit and all others.*
> 
> ...


See above for the response to this thread


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

SheetsSM said:


> What's funny is every time the breeder refers to herself in the 3rd person she's just making sure google has this thread pop up just below the farm website--if one is trying to paint themselves in a positive light, continuing to self highlight the misinformation & holes in the breeding program seems counterproductive to me.


*I have nothing to hide, if a prospective client does their homework and research they will find this forum and hopefully see for themselves.* *I work very hard to be reputable and genuinely love my dogs and the Golden Retriever breed. I am CPR certified, and have taken numerous nutrition courses to better educate myself and bring a better, more healthy puppy into the world for families to enjoy. The care and attention my dogs receive is second to none.* *People are going to get Goldens, why not give them an option for a healthy one? *


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> BTW you have the same bitch pictured on k9data as Sasha and as Crystal.


*Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I have corrected it and removed the photo from Sasha's profile. The picture is in fact Crystal, it was uploaded by error from photo bucket. *


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

cadfarm said:


> *I have nothing to hide, if a prospective client does their homework and research they will find this forum and hopefully see for themselves.* *I work very hard to be reputable and genuinely love my dogs and the Golden Retriever breed. I am CPR certified, and have taken numerous nutrition courses to better educate myself and bring a better, more healthy puppy into the world for families to enjoy. The care and attention my dogs receive is second to none.* *People are going to get Goldens, why not give them an option for a healthy one? *


Why not give them the option for a non-ich puppy? 
There's no good answer to that, so I guess that's why you didn't reply with a response to that post.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

cadfarm said:


> See above for the response to this thread


So, to me, here is the thing. I commend your getting clearances on your current breeding dogs. What I think no one can understand is why in the world you consider them suitable for breeding with no depth of clearances behind them. That means, dogs that are bred really should not just have clearances themselves but their parents, and grandparents, and so on should have them. It's a crucial part of what makes a dog a breeding prospect. 
There are many other parts of what should be there before putting a dog into a breeding program- they should be outstanding in some area of competition. That photo of Crystal, for example, shows a sad dog whose topline is not correct and who appears to have been photo-op'd in the ghetto. 
They should be stellar in temperament. Good grief, go and get a CGC at least! There's nothing to that but a relationship with the dog and a small amount of training.
Do more than just breed dogs for pets. The people you sell them to are the ones who have to live with the issues you produce, and it is on you not the breeders before you in the pedigree because YOU are the one who's continuing to breed from a pedigree that hasn't got any substance. You can't blame your breeding animals on the people who didn't get clearances or compete with their ancestors, because you are the one who's put a bandaid on the inadequate pedigree and continued to breed from it. 
Be the one who makes an active change- not just bandaid with taking them for clearances, but learn what's wrong with them structurally (go to a CCA) and if you must breed them, breed them to a dog who CAN fix it, not the dog in your yard who cannot fix all that's wrong there. 
And stop buying dogs to incorporate in a breeding program whose sole plus is their coat color. It's obvious that they were purchased from inadequate breeders to become a part of another breeding program that, while you may now be getting clearances, is still inadequate in the eyes of any really reputable breeder. 
To those who may come here via google search, realize the bandaids are not sufficient to produce health.

edit:the path to being a reputable breeder would include you buying the BEST you can possibly buy, and breeding from that- to the best you can possibly find. Put only the BEST puppies out there.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> Why not give them the option for a non-ich puppy?
> There's no good answer to that, so I guess that's why you didn't reply with a response to that post.


*I actually didn't see that post, so thank you for bringing my attention to it. I understand that you wish to protect the Golden Retriever breed, as I do. There are many bad breeders and Puppy Mills out there. I have a rescued dog from one and deal with his issues on a daily basis, poor baby. So I get it... But there are so many health screens available to test your animal for. I have never seen any of my dogs display any of the signs for Thyroid disorders or Ichthyosis. Nor have I seen any indication of any of the other numerous possible testing disorders. Here is a link to the additional health screenings set forth by the OFA.*
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Applications


*As a reputable breeder, I follow the guidelines set up by CHIC - Canine Health Information Center. My dogs meet the requirements and are CHIC certified.*
*Core to the CHIC philosophy is the realization that each breed has different health concerns. Not all diseases have known modes of inheritance, nor do all diseases have screening tests. Some screening tests are based on phenotypic evaluation, others on genetic testing. With all these variables, a key element of CHIC is to customize or tailor the CHIC requirements to the needs of each breed. *

*I almost feel that I am being attacked by some of the members on this forum. I am a Golden lover and mu goal is to put healthy dogs in a family at a reasonable cost. With each additional screening, the overall cost is increased. I am one of the "Good Guys" and would appreciate some respect and am tired of having to defend my breeding program to people that have no clue as to how we do things, nor the inclination to pursue the truth. You can PM me if you so choose, but please don't comment on issues just for the sake of commenting. Thank you.*


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

This piling on has been interesting and certainly not surprising. Only if the other breeders were scrutinized to the same degree, it would actually give this discussion a little credit.

But when a known breeder has an itch carrier female and breeds to a non-tested male who has siblings who are carriers it is just OK. When a known breeder breeds before 2 it is just OK because they know better. Meanwhile I see these breeders recommended on this forum over and over again. 

Cadfarm. I really hope you will take a look at the optigen testing. Ichthyosis can be easily avoided by not breeding carrier to carrier, affected to carrier. OptiGen Ichthyosis (ICT-A) in GR performed by Antagene
The test is about $80 if I remember correctly. You already know you have a carrier male that is used for breeding. Would you like to have a puppy at a reasonable cost but having to bathe weekly so it doesn't flake all over the house, people afraid or grossed out to touch it?


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> So, to me, here is the thing. I commend your getting clearances on your current breeding dogs. What I think no one can understand is why in the world you consider them suitable for breeding with no depth of clearances behind them. That means, dogs that are bred really should not just have clearances themselves but their parents, and grandparents, and so on should have them. It's a crucial part of what makes a dog a breeding prospect.
> There are many other parts of what should be there before putting a dog into a breeding program- they should be outstanding in some area of competition. That photo of Crystal, for example, shows a sad dog whose topline is not correct and who appears to have been photo-op'd in the ghetto.
> They should be stellar in temperament. Good grief, go and get a CGC at least! There's nothing to that but a relationship with the dog and a small amount of training.
> Do more than just breed dogs for pets. The people you sell them to are the ones who have to live with the issues you produce, and it is on you not the breeders before you in the pedigree because YOU are the one who's continuing to breed from a pedigree that hasn't got any substance. You can't blame your breeding animals on the people who didn't get clearances or compete with their ancestors, because you are the one who's put a bandaid on the inadequate pedigree and continued to breed from it.
> ...


*I am breeding the best puppy that I can. The majority of breeders will NOT sell breeding rights; as they want to protect their bloodlines and reduce competition. That is one the reasons I have imported some of my girls, in addition to introducing new and fresh bloodlines to this country. I am trying to establish a clean breeding program, and at the same time putting healthy pups into family environments. Thank you for looking out for the Golden Retrievers. *
*By the way, my photo of Chrystal is not a flattering one, I know but it is all I have now.. I am not a photographer, and do have a professional one coming to take recent pictures of my dogs that will reflect their true conformation. I personally prefer the lighter coats, thus my reason for breeding that into them. *


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> This piling on has been interesting and certainly not surprising. Only if the other breeders were scrutinized to the same degree, it would actually give this discussion a little credit.


Claudia, when someone comes to this forum and asks for help trying to weed through the confusing tangle of information put up by different breeders regarding health clearances, we help them every time. Every time. The level of initial work is usually determined by who they catch on the forum on a given day. It can take an hour or two to go through multiple dogs and cross reference their pedigrees with what is posted on OFA and then double check your work before you question it publicly. I do it when I have time because it matters to me that people not be taken advantage of and that dogs not be treated like livestock. At the very least, I always remind new people that they need to ask for clearances on a litter every time no matter who the breeder is.

If you're not happy with the level of 'scrutinizing' provided here, then I suggest you step in and assist with the background research required - Until you're ready to start sharing your time here assisting people in their attempts to educate themselves and perform due diligence on individual litters, it would be nice if you quit insulting those of us who do try to help. 

I can't speak for everyone, but my main concern here is that we identify breeders who are telling baldfaced lies on their websites. Taking advantage of uninformed customers by saying they follow every bit of the code of ethics to the letter and then listing breeding dogs on their websites who are missing a hip clearance is purposefully lying and it's wrong. It's wrong on many levels. I will point it out when I see it in black and white every time, no matter who it is. Breeders who flat out lie on their websites end up receiving a higher level of attention here than others, it is a mystery to me why you can't seem to grasp that idea . I'm surprised that you're not more interested in letting people know that a breeder is behaving in a less than ethical manner.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

cadfarm said:


> *
> I almost feel that I am being attacked by some of the members on this forum. I am a Golden lover and mu goal is to put healthy dogs in a family at a reasonable cost. With each additional screening, the overall cost is increased. I am one of the "Good Guys" and would appreciate some respect and am tired of having to defend my breeding program to people that have no clue as to how we do things, nor the inclination to pursue the truth. You can PM me if you so choose, but please don't comment on issues just for the sake of commenting. Thank you.*


*

Please understand that we are all here because we love dogs in general and Golden Retrievers in particular. Members devote time to this forum to try to give back to new people to help them recognize good breeders and to avoid the pitfalls. Some of us have spent years, both here and in 'real life', discussing how to choose a good breeder, and have heard literally dozens and dozens of stories of people being suckered into spending thousands of dollars for puppies who were bred and raised by people cutting every corner imaginable at the expense of the dogs' health and the owners broken hearts and budgets broken by vet bills. 

Our comments and concerns are generally raised when we see websites that are not consistent from dog to dog or that talk about the importance of clearances but make it difficult or impossible to verify clearances. It is a concern when a website attributes one of their dogs with "perfect" conformation or "lovely" conformation but clearly has never competed with the dog in a venue to judge this. It is a concern when a breeder gives temperament as a primary concern but doesn't compete with their dogs in any performance venue or participate in hobbies or sports that verify this. Saying a dog has a wonderful temperament when it rarely leaves home except for a trip to the vet leaves several aspects of it's behavior and temperament unknown. The average pet owner needs a dog that is eager to please and doesn't require a degree in dog psychology to train; if the parents have never stepped foot anywhere except the back yard, it is difficult to verify any of this information or how it may be passed to the puppy.

I have no idea how much you are charging for your puppies. We all have different ideas on what is a fair price for a healthy puppy and what we expect from a breeder who charges in the neighborhood of $1500-$2000 a puppy. One of my requirements personally is that a puppy be raised in the breeder's home as part of the family where it is familiar with sounds of the household and has the greatest opportunity to receive close to round the clock interaction with people. I also hope that the dam of the litter is being kept with people she loves and not isolated. Nothing is written in the GRCA code of ethics on that specific issue, it's a personal thing for me. If someone comes here and asks for help, we do our best to help with the information we are provided and what we can read on a public website. We give opinion based on knowledge and experience. We try to help based on mistakes we may have made in the past or have observed others make. 

I have edited an earlier post to reflect your responses so that it will not be unfairly raised with someone who does future research. I stand by my research that a dog listed with prelims should not be posted as a breeding dog on your "mother dog" page. If her clearances aren't final, she should not be advertised as a breeding dog. It would be nice if you updated your website to reflect penhip clearances so that there do not appear to be glaring holes when OFA is referenced. I will not change my stance that an ideal pedigree will have multiple generations of heart, hip, eye and elbow clearances. No, it may not be there 100% of the time, but due to the inherited nature of these issues we owe it to the puppies produced to try to use all available tools to avoid reproducing these painful problems. These tools were available at the time and should be mostly available for 3, 4 and even 5 generations now, not missing altogether. Is this a deal breaker for the average pet owner, probably not. It is something I am going to point out though when they care enough to show up here for help.

"A CHIC number is issued when test results are entered into the database satisfying each breed specific requirement, and when the owner of the dog has opted to release the results into the public domain. The CHIC number itself does not imply normal test results, only that all the required breed specific tests were performed and the results made publicly available." Please do not keep using your dogs' CHIC numbers as proof to the average member of the public that your dogs have passed all necessary clearances when it's not the rule set in stone. Zac's eye clearance is the perfect example of why this is problematic. I completely understand that updating eye clearances is a hassle, but there is no excuse for linking them to your website and then not doing it regularly. Zac's clearance is so out of date that it raises a red flag. A CHIC clearance doesn't address this issue.

I hope that you will step back after the dust settles and contemplate some of the suggestions you received here about training and competing with your dogs. You are clearly going to time and expense to do many things right. Why not take it a step higher and have fun with it. Come back here next year and brag on your progress. You have no idea how happy it would make a lot of people.*


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

nolefan said:


> Claudia, when someone comes to this forum and asks for help trying to weed through the confusing tangle of information put up by different breeders regarding health clearances, we help them every time. Every time. The level of initial work is usually determined by who they catch on the forum on a given day. It can take an hour or two to go through multiple dogs and cross reference their pedigrees with what is posted on OFA and then double check your work before you question it publicly. I do it when I have time because it matters to me that people not be taken advantage of and that dogs not be treated like livestock. At the very least, I always remind new people that they need to ask for clearances on a litter every time no matter who the breeder is.
> 
> If you're not happy with the level of 'scrutinizing' provided here, then I suggest you step in and assist with the background research required - Until you're ready to start sharing your time here assisting people in their attempts to educate themselves and perform due diligence on individual litters, it would be nice if you quit insulting those of us who do try to help.
> 
> I can't speak for everyone, but my main concern here is that we identify breeders who are telling baldfaced lies on their websites. Taking advantage of uninformed customers by saying they follow every bit of the code of ethics to the letter and then listing breeding dogs on their websites who are missing a hip clearance is purposefully lying and it's wrong. It's wrong on many levels. I will point it out when I see it in black and white every time, no matter who it is. Breeders who flat out lie on their websites end up receiving a higher level of attention here than others, it is a mystery to me why you can't seem to grasp that idea . I'm surprised that you're not more interested in letting people know that a breeder is behaving in a less than ethical manner.


Since when asking to scrutinize all breeders in the same manner is insulting? 

Baldfaced lies? I honestly did not see any baldfaced lies from cadfarms. Maybe I missed it. A forum member has a dog from this breeder. I also have no reason not to trust this member on her experience with the breeder nor do I have any reason to believe that her description of Harry is not accurate. 

As far as website goes... how many times did we not see other breeders not updating their websites? Maybe ask potential buyers to call and get updates on the clearances. But does that really make it a baldfaced lie? 

Now we get back to what is ethical. Would I want cadfarm to follow GRCA Code of Ethics? Yes. Can I make cadfarm follow it? No. 

I do know though that calling the person's pictures ghetto pictures, piling on over and over again will certainly not make a person more willing to look at other ways.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Yes, Claudia, the entire line I quoted is a direct example of what I'm talking about. It is possible to disagree with people and couch it in terms that are more diplomatic and less designed to stir the pot.


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> Since when asking to scrutinize all breeders in the same manner is insulting?
> 
> Baldfaced lies? I honestly did not see any baldfaced lies from cadfarms. Maybe I missed it. A forum member has a dog from this breeder. I also have no reason not to trust this member on her experience with the breeder nor do I have any reason to believe that her description of Harry is not accurate.
> 
> ...


*Thank you for your response, and I will consider testing for the additional items expressed as being important. I have checked into joining a local Golden Retriever Club, but the closest one is almost 2 hours from my home. *

*I do take my dogs to social activities, local festivals, etc. They are very well behaved and love being exposed to social activities. All of my dogs reside inside my home, sleep on my sofa, and are family members. I feed a 5 star dog food, supplemented with fresh meat and bones. I am open to constructive criticism and welcome assistance from anyone that is civil in their approach. Thank you for restoring my faith in this forum.*


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## cadfarm (Nov 2, 2015)

nolefan said:


> Please understand that we are all here because we love dogs in general and Golden Retrievers in particular. Members devote time to this forum to try to give back to new people to help them recognize good breeders and to avoid the pitfalls. Some of us have spent years, both here and in 'real life', discussing how to choose a good breeder, and have heard literally dozens and dozens of stories of people being suckered into spending thousands of dollars for puppies who were bred and raised by people cutting every corner imaginable at the expense of the dogs' health and the owners broken hearts and budgets broken by vet bills.
> 
> Our comments and concerns are generally raised when we see websites that are not consistent from dog to dog or that talk about the importance of clearances but make it difficult or impossible to verify clearances. It is a concern when a website attributes one of their dogs with "perfect" conformation or "lovely" conformation but clearly has never competed with the dog in a venue to judge this. It is a concern when a breeder gives temperament as a primary concern but doesn't compete with their dogs in any performance venue or participate in hobbies or sports that verify this. Saying a dog has a wonderful temperament when it rarely leaves home except for a trip to the vet leaves several aspects of it's behavior and temperament unknown. The average pet owner needs a dog that is eager to please and doesn't require a degree in dog psychology to train; if the parents have never stepped foot anywhere except the back yard, it is difficult to verify any of this information or how it may be passed to the puppy.
> 
> ...


*I do appreciate you taking the time to share your opinion. I may not agree with your approach, but respect your right to your opinion. You are correct in that there is always room for improvement, but don't make a new member feel as if they are being bashed. Corrective criticism delivered in an appropriate manner is much more effective.*

*In order to get a CHIC number, you must have all of the suggested certifications from OFA. OFA ONLY certifies those health screens with passing grades. That means your animal has had to pass and receive their individual certifications from OFA to qualify for a CHIC number. CHIC does not dispense numbers to those who merely make their results public, in fact you have to have passing grades, or you won't get a CHIC number. I will bring the eye certifications up to date, thank you for reminding me of their expiration.*


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

No, that's not correct. CHIC will give a certificate to an animal w HD (hips), and PU (eyes), if they make the results public and have also done elbows and cardiac.It matters not that the animal passes. The animal MUST have perm.ID.
Directly from their site: A CHIC number is issued when test results are entered into the database satisfying each breed specific requirement, and when the owner of the dog has opted to release the results into the public domain. The CHIC number itself does not imply normal test results, only that all the required breed specific tests were performed and the results made publicly available.
Kristy also quoted it for you, but perhaps you didn't realize she was not posting opinion but fact.
Here is the web address: http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/chicinfo.html#policies


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

cadfarm said:


> *I am breeding the best puppy that I can. The majority of breeders will NOT sell breeding rights; as they want to protect their bloodlines and reduce competition. That is one the reasons I have imported some of my girls, in addition to introducing new and fresh bloodlines to this country. I am trying to establish a clean breeding program, and at the same time putting healthy pups into family environments. Thank you for looking out for the Golden Retrievers. *........


I am curious as to why you make this statement about the "majority of breeders" and on what basis you are asserting that they will not sell their "breeding rights" to "protect their bloodlines and reduce competition"? This type of comment comes up a lot from people who are using imported dogs for their breeding programs and also sounds like the rhetoric that people use to suggest that "english creams" are better/healthier Goldens.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Coopsmom said:


> I am curious as to why you make this statement about the "majority of breeders" and on what basis you are asserting that they will not sell their "breeding rights" to "protect their bloodlines and reduce competition"? *This type of comment comes up a lot from people who are using imported dogs for their breeding programs and also sounds like the rhetoric that people use to suggest that "english creams" are better/healthier Goldens.*


I do not see where CadFarms has stated that "english creams" are better/healthier goldens. And frankly what is wrong with imported dogs?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

My statement was that she should buy the best girl she can get and breed from that. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with Euro dogs, I rather like them but don't like many that I see here in the US. Of course, most of the ones we see here are called English yet come from Romania and other small countries that do not have a long kennel club history like England does. 
No breeder anywhere is going to sell a fabulous prospect to a breeder anywhere else who doesn't show. That's just the long and short of it. Why would they? So we end up with a lot of imported dogs who probably wouldn't begin to make the cut in any ring, anywhere, and they are being bred here as superior. Not really sure why. 
I cannot understand the business model many English cream breeders use. They would get a much better puppy by breeding a light colored coat with a healthy background to a frozen fabulous stud dog in Europe. That'd actually get some good genes here. Instead they pay a fortune for a bitch who isn't ever going to produce a wonderful litter (structure wise) sold to them by a breeder who isn't doing anything in their own country w their dogs either and whose success if probably based on selling to us Americans..

The 'no one sells breeding rights' thing- well, no one reputable does to an unknown. that's just true.
It does seem to be the rhetoric used to excuse sub-standard breeding stock.
edit- I don't want to imply US breeders need good euro genes. We don't. But if this Eng Cream thing is staying, I would sure like them to start using nice stud dogs.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> My statement was that she should buy the best girl she can get and breed from that.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with Euro dogs, I rather like them but don't like many that I see here in the US. Of course, most of the ones we see here are called English yet come from Romania and other small countries that do not have a long kennel club history like England does.
> No breeder anywhere is going to sell a fabulous prospect to a breeder anywhere else who doesn't show. That's just the long and short of it. Why would they? So we end up with a lot of imported dogs who probably wouldn't begin to make the cut in any ring, anywhere, and they are being bred here as superior. Not really sure why.
> ...


WOW - have you ever been to Romania? Have you ever met the conformation and field people there? How about replace little Romania with little Maine. Sorry but that was quite snobbish. I am still perplexed I just read that.


ETA - I better let my friend know that her flat coats from Sweden are horrible because they do not come from England but another small Euro country.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

cadfarm said:


> *I have checked into joining a local Golden Retriever Club, but the closest one is almost 2 hours from *


*

Are you talking about PVGRC? We meet all over & there are variety of activities in Maryland & Virginia and there are a plethora of training clubs. I go to rally drop-ins in your neck of the woods (Chesapeake Kennel Club), basic obedience in Silver Spring & Agility Foundations South of Baltimore. We also have an active field program that uses land in Brandywine. Plenty of opportunities to find a niche & there are some wonderful breeders in your area as well--they certainly entertain all of my questions.

I am glad you're doing complete clearances now, what I would recommend is to get out & prove your dogs, really dig into learning about the breed--you'll find you'll have more to say about your dogs than describing them as having long ears & a fluffy coat--when you say the dog has perfect conformation (which no golden does) you'll be able to say why you believe that & have had an independent eye support your claims.*


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> WOW - have you ever been to Romania? Have you ever met the conformation and field people there? How about replace little Romania with little Maine. Sorry but that was quite snobbish. I am still perplexed I just read that.
> 
> 
> ETA - I better let my friend know that her flat coats from Sweden are horrible because they do not come from England but another small Euro country.


It wasn't intended to be snobby. England is also quite small. As is Maine. But the dogs are being called ENGLISH (not Romanian) creams and most of the time one has to go back further than we can with k9data to find an English dog in them. Semantics. 
England, though small, does have an amazing KC that has history going back hundreds of years and I don't think Romania has that history though I suppose that people don't call them Romanian Creams says it, eh? 

If your friend bought a dog promoted as an English Flat Coated Retriever from Sweden, it could be that it might be horrible. I don't know.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> It wasn't intended to be snobby. England is also quite small. As is Maine. But the dogs are being called ENGLISH (not Romanian) creams and most of the time one has to go back further than we can with k9data to find an English dog in them. Semantics.
> England, though small, does have an amazing KC that has history going back hundreds of years and I don't think Romania has that history though I suppose that people don't call them Romanian Creams says it, eh?
> 
> If your friend bought a dog promoted as an English Flat Coated Retriever from Sweden, it could be that it might be horrible. I don't know.


And here I was so darn stupid to think that English was simply referring to the built and not necessarily to where they came from. 
After all I guess all goldens should be called English Goldens because that is where they come from. 

So let's say they were called Romanian Goldens or Polish Goldens, or Hungarian Goldens or "some other small" (your words) Euro country. What is so wrong to import one of those? Are they inferior somehow?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I have read these posts with interest. I do not know Cadfarms but I will say one thing---Cadfarms is pretty classy with its replies, taking time to give a reasonable response to all questions. Especially in view of what I consider posts that would send me to a lawyer if I were a breeder.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> And here I was so darn stupid to think that English was simply referring to the built and not necessarily to where they came from.
> After all I guess all goldens should be called English Goldens because that is where they come from.
> 
> So let's say they were called Romanian Goldens or Polish Goldens, or Hungarian Goldens or "some other small" (your words) Euro country. What is so wrong to import one of those? Are they inferior somehow?


Is it? If it were build, then they wouldn't all (here in the US- not so in Europe) be pretty much the same coat color. It's not structure. It's a marketing scheme based on a name. The name of the breed is Golden Retriever. Not American Golden, or English Golden, or BFE Golden. 
There's nothing wrong w importing a dog from anywhere no matter the size of the country... but it would be pretty amazing if all these breeders export these wonderful animals to people who do not compete (and therefore, only benefit the breeder by the $ in their pocket and not by their reputation or breeding program being showcased) merely on the worth of a coat color.

Are the most of them worth breeding? Not most of the ones I have seen but admittedly, the ones I have seen are typically at int. shows or on websites posted by owners (breeders) and I don't see many I would personally want to see bred... probably you know more than me about this segment of the Goldens out there so you tell me. 
So we will have to disagree on this point. I'm not going to go down this road with you, your position is well documented and so is mine. I want to see correct dogs being bred, healthy dogs who have a depth of clearances and whose owners do more than just make puppies with them by the dog they bought for the purpose of acting as stud to every bitch they own.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess.... big thing to point out is that this thread is a couple years old. So responding to people's comments from a couple years ago is a little wild and bordering on disingenuous, because of course in 2 years you might have found time to get clearances on those dogs you were breeding 2 years ago or who knows. The time to have responded with corrections regarding how your dogs have clearances, etc... would have been 2 years ago. 

I'm not really into overanalyzing stuff for other people anymore. Didn't bother looking up dogs, websites, or other stuff. I think this is a case where people need to do their own groundwork based on what they should know. 

I think when purchasing a purebred golden retriever puppy from a breeder, you should expect clearances on both parent dogs and for that matter going a few generations back. 

Puppy buyers can do your research. Go into the puppy search with your eyes wide open and a list of those bare minimum items that you should EXPECT from a purebred and well bred golden puppy. Right at the top, you should expect full clearances behind your puppy and a breeder who has a full understanding of what they are breeding. 

Because there's a lot of fish in the sea. A lot of people breeding nice and healthy dogs.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> I do not see where CadFarms has stated that "english creams" are better/healthier goldens. And frankly what is wrong with imported dogs?


I didn't say or suggest that CadFarms said that english creams are better/healthier. I have nothing against "imported" dogs IF they are indeed excellent goldens with a proven track record of health, conformation, etc. One of my all time favorite goldens was a grandson of a famous Camrose (England) dog who was purchased by a very reputable (now retired) breeder here in the US.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Coopsmom said:


> I didn't say or suggest that CadFarms said that english creams are better/healthier. I have nothing against "imported" dogs IF they are indeed excellent goldens with a proven track record of health, conformation, etc. One of my all time favorite goldens was a grandson of a famous Camrose (England) dog who was purchased by a very reputable (now retired) breeder here in the US.


Ahhh, the words "Famous" and "Very reputable", "excellent" makes us think we made such a wise decision in life. Unfortunately those words are subjective. There are many dogs that I would not consider excellent despite the CH and/or MH attached to them. One may consider them famous while some may not consider them at all. And frankly they all started somewhere without titles, without anything. 
The fact that you brought it up pretty much put words in this person's mouth/finger tips. And added something else that this breeder would have to once again defend. 

Now think about the forum member who has a dog from this breeder. Harry is a wonderful dog who is loved, social and is everything this person wanted. How would you like for someone to question your breeder in this manner?

There is an old saying about honey and vinegar.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> Is it? If it were build, then they wouldn't all (here in the US- not so in Europe) be pretty much the same coat color. It's not structure. It's a marketing scheme based on a name. The name of the breed is Golden Retriever. Not American Golden, or English Golden, or BFE Golden.
> There's nothing wrong w importing a dog from anywhere no matter the size of the country... but it would be pretty amazing if all these breeders export these wonderful animals to people who do not compete (and therefore, only benefit the breeder by the $ in their pocket and not by their reputation or breeding program being showcased) merely on the worth of a coat color.
> 
> Are the most of them worth breeding? Not most of the ones I have seen but admittedly, the ones I have seen are typically at int. shows or on websites posted by owners (breeders) *and I don't see many I would personally want to see bred.*.. probably you know more than me about this segment of the Goldens out there so you tell me.
> So we will have to disagree on this point. I'm not going to go down this road with you, your position is well documented and so is mine. I want to see correct dogs being bred, healthy dogs who have a depth of clearances and whose owners do more than just make puppies with them by the dog they bought for the purpose of acting as stud to every bitch they own.


See Robin, that is like me telling you that I would really not want to see many of the BISS dogs out there bred. They do not look like nor do they have the stamina of a golden in my views. You like your dogs and other people like other dogs. The great thing about the Goldens is that there is quite a variety. Show people can get their dogs, field people can get their dogs and pet people can get their dogs. The question remains how do we approach breeders and bring them to adopt GRCA code of ethics without insulting them, their "ghetto" (your word) pictures, the "small little Euro countries" (paraphrasing). 

Now, I am sure you are aware of the vast color variety in goldens so no, they will not all be the same color. Maybe in the American show ring but not in the real world. And as far as competition, does really every breeder out there have to compete with their dogs? Are you saying that a person who hunts their dogs should not breed their dog because they did not compete and chase conformation judges all over the US for points?


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

gdgli said:


> I have read these posts with interest. I do not know Cadfarms but I will say one thing---Cadfarms is pretty classy with its replies, taking time to give a reasonable response to all questions. Especially in view of what I consider posts that would send me to a lawyer if I were a breeder.


Wow, I agree with this. I would never recommend any breeder I know on this site because of this type of behavior. 
There is some real inconsistency here on what is allowed as a breeder depending on who you are or what letters are in front of your dogs name.
There was recently a discussion about the lack of quality pet puppies available for the general public and it would seem to me that breeders like this would help fill that gap.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> Ahhh, the words "Famous" and "Very reputable", "excellent" makes us think we made such a wise decision in life. Unfortunately those words are subjective. There are many dogs that I would not consider excellent despite the CH and/or MH attached to them. One may consider them famous while some may not consider them at all. And frankly they all started somewhere without titles, without anything.
> The fact that you brought it up pretty much put words in this person's mouth/finger tips. And added something else that this breeder would have to once again defend.
> 
> Now think about the forum member who has a dog from this breeder. Harry is a wonderful dog who is loved, social and is everything this person wanted. How would you like for someone to question your breeder in this manner?
> ...


I have not said anything negative about this breeder or his/her dogs. I asked him/her a very simple question about one of the things that he/she said and added something I have heard a lot from people who are marketing "english creams". People question breeders all the time. one of the great things about this forum is that people share a lot of very helpful information and give potential puppy buyers a lot of "food for thought". Some of the breeders in this forum go way above and beyond in terms of helping people out by providing information, suggestions and guidance. I appreciate their efforts and passion for the breed.


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## DoreenB (Sep 19, 2014)

> Originally Posted by gdgli View Post
> I have read these posts with interest. I do not know Cadfarms but I will say one thing---Cadfarms is pretty classy with its replies, taking time to give a reasonable response to all questions. Especially in view of what I consider posts that would send me to a lawyer if I were a breeder.
> Wow, I agree with this. I would never recommend any breeder I know on this site because of this type of behavior.
> There is some real inconsistency here on what is allowed as a breeder depending on who you are or what letters are in front of your dogs name.
> There was recently a discussion about the lack of quality pet puppies available for the general public and it would seem to me that breeders like this would help fill that gap.


Thank you trail dogs and gdgli for voicing my sentiments. I own a CADFARMS puppy in part because the numerous "recommended" breeders I contacted either didn't bother to respond or blew me off. In two instances, I took the time to fill out the questionnaire and waited for months, only to be told there are breeders who are closer to my location and I should try contacting them. 
Someone dinged this breeder for responding to criticisms that were posted years ago. If I was a breeder, I would certainly respond since they come up every time you google CADFARMS.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

The unfortunate part of this thread is that buried deeply in the bickering is actual information, which people googling may not have the patience to find. No one is perfect, but when you know better you do better. I am hopeful that this will be the case with this breeder. And I commend them for joining a local golden club in order to move down that road.


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