# Moving beyond treats when training



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Denise Fenzi offers a great online course on this. 

First of all, try not to get hooked on luring with treats, When Tippi can do something 9/10 times, immediately get treats out of her sight, and reward her variably after she does as you ask. Try to reward for effort rather than tasks. Sitting on command may take a ton off effort for a 10 week old pup, and nearly no effort for a 6 month old. Maybe the 6 month old can string together 6 0r 7 command for the same amount of effort, thus earning a reward.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

A good reminder for everyone.... treats are a useful tool and do not have to be retired completely. Relying on them being visible, in sight, and given frequently - that is what needs to be weaned. And the word is weaned vs stopped completely. 

All that said. Transition slowly.

Treats in hand - visible to the dog.
Treats tucked between hand and hip.
Treats in mouth or pocket.
Treats off your person, but in sight. 
Treats off your person, and in another room. You lead a big parade to the cookie jar for rewards. 

Something that always helps with dogs learning that coming to you and going inside with you is a positive - always lead a parade to the cookie jar when your dog comes in from outside. 

The running free problem outside - use a long line and wait for her to start wanting to stay in your space before you fade the long line. Sometimes just going outside frequently and hanging out in the yard with you helps...


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## timberdoodle (Mar 6, 2013)

Lately I've been trying to use treats a little more sparingly with my 6 month old on commands he does easily. Just started to introduce play/tug as praise also.. hoping to get him a little more focused and excited. Learning a lot more about that here:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ity-obedience/116105-playing-tug-agility.html


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## Gratitude14 (Jan 2, 2014)

We have had our 8 wk old puppy for 2 weeks now. We started taking him to a puppy preschool at The Zoom Room in Walnut Cr. They use treats to train, distract etc. I've only raised pups through Guide Dogs for the Blind 20 years ago. We were not allowed to use treats for training, although I understand the use them now. My question is doesn't that encourage bad behavior by luring them away from from structure behavior? Example:
when I go after the pillows & drop it I get a treat! It just seems counter productive. Also
Letting them bark it out in the crate doesn't seem natural to me. Any ideas?


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## Martin (Feb 21, 2011)

Maybe it would help to hide treats in your pocket so that she never knows whether or not you have treats with you.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Think 'slot machine' keep her guessing when you will 'pay out', and once in while surprise her with a 'jackpot' (feeding several treats in a row, one at a time). The key is to offer the treats 'randomly' by varying the number of correct responses before paying out. Set her up to succeed, (food) reward for one, then ask for three, reward the third, then reward the next single response or two, then ask for two, gradually increasing the number of repetitions before rewarding, but also going back to 'easier' successes (one or two) in between. Keep the treats out of sight, do not reach for them until she has responded correctly, mark the behavior and then get out the treat. 
If she is not responding to the cue, there could be a number of reasons: the environment you are working in may be too distracting, or 'new' to her, if by blowing you off you mean she turns her head away, or goes off and starts sniffing the ground, she is stressed/anxious for whatever reason, has the session gone on too long (for her), she may need a 'break', are you stressed/ tensing up? - time to take a break do something else for a bit. She may be confused, consider if you are being consistent with how you give the cue, body position, tone of voice and the words that you use: 'sit' is different than 'Tippi, sit', these are all important parts of the 'big picture' to a dog.
If you have given her a cue that she has responded to reliably in the past, in the same situation/environment as she has had success previously, and she is looking at you like she has never heard it before - a couple of things you can try: wait her out, nothing else happens until she does respond correctly, no matter how long it takes when she does, lots of praise and feed her several treats in a row. Or, if she is taking 'too long' for your liking, give her a little extra time to begin with, and gradually lessen it, as she becomes more proficient, use your 'no reward' marker, 'reset' - encourage her to move a few steps and recue the behavior you are looking for, reward when she does it.

You may want to consider experimenting to find out what other things are rewarding to her. Does she like tug? to do tricks? Shake a paw, spin? weave between your legs? fetch? 'find it'? So that you can have a variety of 'life rewards' to use with her during your training sessions in your 'pocket'.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Gratitude14 said:


> We have had our 8 wk old puppy for 2 weeks now. We started taking him to a puppy preschool at The Zoom Room in Walnut Cr. They use treats to train, distract etc. I've only raised pups through Guide Dogs for the Blind 20 years ago. We were not allowed to use treats for training, although I understand the use them now. My question is doesn't that encourage bad behavior by luring them away from from structure behavior? Example:
> when I go after the pillows & drop it I get a treat! It just seems counter productive. Also
> Letting them bark it out in the crate doesn't seem natural to me. Any ideas?


Young dogs, and even many older dogs, will not make the association that they were chasing the pillow and then they ended up with a treat. For the puppy, they were trying to kill the pillow, their owner called them, they turned their attention to the owner, the owner gave the command "come", the puppy dropped the pillow because sometimes the owner has something yummy, and ran over to see if they did. For the puppy there are a lot of steps between the pillow and the treat. The last thing they did was go to the owner and then get a treat so running to owner = treat. As the dog gets older, you can add more structure but as a puppy, treats are a great way to encourage learning and motivation.

As for the barking in the crate, it might not seem natural to you but it is to the dog! I watch mama dogs completely ignore puppies when they are making a racket. They are fed by mama when she is thinks the time is right and not when the puppies what to be fed. If you don't like the puppy crying and you immediately open the gate then the puppy will get the direct association of loud = out and that is not something you want to start. Think of putting a toddler down for a nap and he is making a fuss and objecting. That does not mean you let the toddler stay up because you know he needs to sleep. Same is true for a puppy. Time in the crate is down time for him to sleep, rest, and watch the world without direct interaction. 

My current 10 week old puppy goes into her crate (with help) and lets me shut the door and fusses for under a minute.  At night she can make it longer than I can so I take her out at about 4am. Back into the crate she goes and then she fusses for another minute. In the morning she quietly waits for me to open the crate and take her outside. If she barks, I will sit at the crate and wait for a moment of silence and then (quickly) open the door. Barking = door stays closed.

Trust that the crate is a good thing for both you and your puppy.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

T Morris said:


> BTW: I sort of knew this might be a problem as I knew she was very independent when I picked her out.
> 
> .



You have a double problem. At a year, pups are really feeling their oats and stretching their independence just because. Start out with a pup that is self employed at 8 weeks old and you have a dog that is unimpressed with the treats and could care less about obeying just to please you. You are just too boring for her to be bothered with and you could hang a T-bone steak from your wrist and she wont come if there is something new or interesting that she would like to investigate.

That being said, once an independent dog can be taught to respect you. Start with the "nothing in life is free" training style. Everything has to be earned. Toys, food, free time, and everything else has a price - obedience to a specific command. While a purely positive training method can work for the puppy that craves your approval, it has very limited success with the independent dog. That does not mean you are going to beat your dog but it does mean that are negative consequences for misbehavior, and NOT obeying known commands IS misbehavior. It is known as "giving you the paw" and it is similar to a human hand gesture!

Move to saying the command once and if the dog does not comply you will make her do it. Sit - push hind end down if the dog does not comply. I like the heeling stick for this exercise because I can tap their hind end and the consequence is immediate (while saving my back). Repeat often until the dog realizes you mean business. Please note, I said tap - not hit, beat or whack. It is hard enough to get her attention and not enough to hurt her in any way. Be sure to give verbal reward when she does sit. Also note that this is going to be somewhat boring for the dog. She knows the command, what you are teaching her is respect for you.

I would also get a trainer or mentor that has experience with independent dogs. I know my first independent dog was a whole new experience for me. He is the dog in my avatar. I remember the look in his eyes when he realized that I meant business. He was not afraid of me, intimidated, or cowering in any way. He respected me and that brought us closer almost immediately. 

Good Luck


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