# How important is grain-free? Which of these should we try?



## mamalamb (Jan 21, 2012)

So we have had Otis on TOTW since we got him because we were told by quite a few people that it was a very good food and also that "grain-free" was very very important and the only way to go. Is this true? 

He is suddenly out of the blue for the last three days turning his nose up at it, not wanting to eat, and acting like it is gross. He is totally fine otherwise and has just been to the vet this week. He will eat his usual treats (carrots,stuff in his kong, etc) and acts like he is starving at meal time, gets all excited for his bowl, and then....looks at me like, "Mom, this stuff is gross.". Before this he was eating it fine, so not sure what the deal is??? We are right at the end of the bag so now I don't know whether to open up the new bag we just bought or not!!!!!!!

We have a coupon from Petsmart for a free bag of food so I was thinking about picking up something new and seeing if he would eat it... the choices are : Authority, Eukanuba, Nutro MAX, AvoDerm, Innova, Purina Pro Plan, BilJac, Nutro Natural Choice, Simply Nourish, Blue, Nature's Recipe, Science Diet, Organix, Natural Ultramix, Nutro Ultra, or Wellness. 

I'm lost...some of those are grain free, some are not...some have "meal" some do not, etc...

Any thoughts on any of this? Thanks!!!!!!


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Grain-free is not necessary to feed unless a dog is having issues on the previous food. What where you feeding before? There is a hype with the grain-free, but I don't see a reason to feed it just because it is 'grain-free'.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

*
If your dog doesn't have any health issues to cause him not to eat then don't be so concerned. Make sure no one is giving him any treats or scraps. Sometime they can be picky with their food and hold out for a better option. Just make sure all he gets is his food. If he doesn't eat his breakfast after a certain time pick it up and offer the the next meal at lunch or dinner. Keep doing this until he eats without snacks in between. A healthy dog will not starve and eventually will figure out that is all that is coming and will eat their meal. Changing ever time they get finicky will not help. 
*


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## mamalamb (Jan 21, 2012)

TOTW is all we have fed him, we adopted him about 3.5 weeks ago. He was eating Purina Puppy Chow before, I think. 

Thanks for the info on the grain free stuff, I have done some reading on the TOTW and we were thinking about switching to something else even before he started turning his nose up at it, but totally confused on what to try.

So I should just cut out all treats/ He doesn't get many at all, but we do use carrots for training sessions, and then his kong sometimes... it's weird because he used to GOBBLE it up, then all the sudden it was like, it tasted bad or something LOL.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

"Grain free" typically means they've swapped out the corn, wheat, or oats for potato. One's not better than the other unless your dog has a specific intolerance to a particular grain.


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## ssacres (Sep 29, 2012)

I won't buy dog food with corn or wheat in it. Cheap fillers.. Amazing that some of the so called best dogs foods have so much corn in them.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

I usually don't give my puppies any treats in the beginning especially if they are being picky. I just use their puppy food as the training treats. I measure out exactly what they should have for the day. Some of it gets to the bowl as a meal and the rest goes in my pocket as treat training all day. This way I know I am not over or under feeding him what he needs. It is important to measure so you know if your puppy needs more for growing of if their is a health issue. You should also send in a stool sample once in a while while they are young even if you don't think it is the problem. If you puppy eats say 3 cups of food a day it doesn't matter how it is presented to him over the course of the day. The puppy may be filling up on the snacks. I think TOTW is a higher end food. I am sure their are many forum friends that use it and could add input. I would say to change if you were feeding him a lower end food. Does he have firm stools? If so I would be careful changing as I wouldn't upset a good thing.


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## ssacres (Sep 29, 2012)

Did your pup get shots at the vet? Maybe just feeling a bit off...


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

We switched Max's food several months ago. We did a taste test. The pet store gave us 6 sample bags of different foods. We put them on plates on the kitchen floor. Max picked Acana Wild Prairie. He checked them all, but only ate all of the WP. 

We went to a "specialty" type pet store, not one of the big chains.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

ssacres said:


> I won't buy dog food with corn or wheat in it. Cheap fillers.. Amazing that some of the so called best dogs foods have so much corn in them.


Why are corn and wheat cheap fillers when potato isn't?


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## mamalamb (Jan 21, 2012)

He did get shots, as well as a heartworm pill, and the vet said it could be causing an upset stomach but that it should have only lasted 24 hours, we are now on day 3...?

We buy his TOTW from a feed store, but we got free food coupons from Petsmart and I am all about free LOL!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

My concern would be more that TOTW is a Diamond product which has had all sorts of quality control issues and recalls. Personally, that's a deal buster or me. If I were to buy food from Petsmart, I'd be looking at Wellness, Innova or ProPlan (selects).


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## mamalamb (Jan 21, 2012)

Hmmmm. We still had a small amount of his old Puppy Chow he came to us with and my husband gave him a scoop of it to see if he would eat...GOBBLED it up and started running around all crazy and doing a happy dance for like 10 minutes. I refuse to feed him Puppy Chow because it's garbage, but that's interesting. 

Do you think there is any chance that the bag of TOTW I have went bad or something??? It's a 30 pound bag of the puppy formula, we are almost to the end of it...


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## newport (Aug 8, 2011)

I have been using EVO light. It is rated a top dry low carb food.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Buy another bag of puppy chow then. Feed what your dog thrives on, not what others tell you what is the "best". Your dog is an individual.



mamalamb said:


> Hmmmm. We still had a small amount of his old Puppy Chow he came to us with and my husband gave him a scoop of it to see if he would eat...GOBBLED it up and started running around all crazy and doing a happy dance for like 10 minutes. I refuse to feed him Puppy Chow because it's garbage, but that's interesting.
> 
> Do you think there is any chance that the bag of TOTW I have went bad or something??? It's a 30 pound bag of the puppy formula, we are almost to the end of it...


Diamond has had so many problems I won't touch it. Have fed it before in the past with no problems, but not now. They are banned in my book.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If you're unhappy with Puppy Chow, Purina makes some very highly respected foods, including the ProPlan line, which is used by lots of exhibitors and competitors.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I agree that Purina is garbage. I do not like them. Diamond Pet Foods make TOTW, while I could handle a salmonella recall after digging back into their history it turns out they also had a melamine recall and that crosses them out in my book. 

Look into Acana, I have had great results with that kibble. They carry grain free and non grain free lines. 

As for grain free vs not grain free. The formula I feed has oatmeal which is a grain. But thats the only grain in the food which I can handle. However, its when we start having, barley, rice, oatmeal and rice bran in one bag of food that I start to not like it. I want my protein to come from meat, not grains. 

Innova Grain Free is one I was recently looking at as well


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Funny how Purina is by far the most popular choice among top breeder/exhibitors...you'd think the most successful people in dog competitions would have figured out that they're feeding their dogs such bad stuff.

How silly they must feel spending tens of thousands of dollars finishing dogs in the breed ring while cutting corners feeding cheap "fillers" and "garbage."


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Funny how Purina is by far the most popular choice among top breeder/exhibitors...you'd think the most successful people in dog competitions would have figured out that they're feeding their dogs such bad stuff.
> 
> How silly they must feel spending tens of thousands of dollars finishing dogs in the breed ring while cutting corners feeding cheap "fillers" and "garbage."


Yes amazing how professional dog people with decades of owning, training, breeding and co-owning need to take advice from the Dog Park Food Police.

I am glad someone told me rice and corn are fillers so I will starting stuffing the kennel with potatoes.

Next time I see Dallas Seavey (2012 Iditarod Winner), Doug Jones (Bralin's Siberians) and Joe Henderson (Famous Artic Explorer) I will tell them to stop feeding Dr. Tim's Momentum and get Fromm's Turkey Tunalini because the other food is filled with fillers. Joe Henderson takes his malamutes to the Artic Circle camping and writing for 100 days at a time in winter, so maybe that grain free food would be better for them.

I already told Danielle Arnt the well known sighthound, dock and flyball trainer, she laughed. From now on the #2 dock dog in the world, Seeker, will be getting a food acceptable to the food police and not Dr. Tim's Pursuit.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

There are many dogs who have won that are not fed crap. I often wonder if Purina pays these breeders to feed their garbage or at least claim they do. Ive seen some dogs in the show ring whos coats are crap and are over weight. Dogs in the show ring look great because of all the grooming they get prior to the show...not because of what food they eat


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

GIFSoup


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## mamalamb (Jan 21, 2012)

lilliam said:


> gifsoup



lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Lilliam said:


> GIFSoup


 

LOL!!! Don't know what show you're talking about but the dogs we see at the Dallas show have correct coats, are anything but overweight and heavily conditioned. Those judges have hands on so not being conditioned would be readily apparent to those practiced hands. It's been said over and over here that there is no restitution for feeding a particular food. And really... how silly is that. That they'd spend the time needed to find an outstanding representative of the breed, spend thousands of dollars showing them and thousands of hours training, competing, grooming, etc and then feed a crap food? Bottom line, feed what your dog does well on.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> There are many dogs who have won that are not fed crap. I often wonder if Purina pays these breeders to feed their garbage or at least claim they do. Ive seen some dogs in the show ring whos coats are crap and are over weight. Dogs in the show ring look great because of all the grooming they get prior to the show...not because of what food they eat


Seriously? Is there any thread where you're not an expert or claiming a conspiracy theory (vets, dog food, reputable breeders & now dog shows)?

To the OP, if your pup likes the puppy chow and appears to be doing well on it but you'd like to feed a bit better quality, I second the recommendation of ProPlan. There are plenty of us out there that wasted time chasing labels & fads and at the end of the day, it comes down to what works for your dog.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> There are many dogs who have won that are not fed crap. I often wonder if Purina pays these breeders to feed their garbage or at least claim they do. Ive seen some dogs in the show ring whos coats are crap and are over weight. Dogs in the show ring look great because of all the grooming they get prior to the show...not because of what food they eat


I'm sure you would only say this if you were an experienced, successful exhibitor, right?

Grooming is important, but it doesn't hide a lack of muscle. And, if a food is garbage, one of the first places you see it is in the quality of the coat, which kinda blows your 'it's all grooming' argument.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

Grain free does not equal the best. IMO, there is a place for grain free, but it's not in my house. Not with the dogs I currently have as they actually do NOT do well on potatoes. (which a lot of grain frees have). They do much better on rice inclusive foods. 

With that said--If he refuses the TOTW, stop feeding it. I don't trust Diamond and I would be concerned that he knows something you can't see. Listen to him and don't force him to eat a food that could be a problem. Maybe not, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

My choices from Petsmart would be either Pro Plan or Eukanuba. If he loves the Puppy Chow and you don't want to feed it--I would go with Pro Plan. It's a step up from Puppy Chow and still a very good food. 

Try not to get hung up on all of the opinions on what is best and that you are a crappy dog parent if you don't feed $100 a bag dog food. I've tried almost ALL of them and my dogs do best on Pro Plan. and I'm OK with that because the most important thing is that they like it, they do well on it and they are healthy on it. Feed what works--not what you feel is "the best" on paper or based on general opinions.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

Wagners Mom said:


> Grain free does not equal the best. IMO, there is a place for grain free, but it's not in my house. Not with the dogs I currently have as they actually do NOT do well on potatoes. (which a lot of grain frees have). They do much better on rice inclusive foods.
> 
> With that said--If he refuses the TOTW, stop feeding it. I don't trust Diamond and I would be concerned that he knows something you can't see. Listen to him and don't force him to eat a food that could be a problem. Maybe not, but I would rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> ...


Wagners's Mom, thanks for this level-headed post. I agree re grain-free; been there, done that. Have you tried Dr Tim's, Orijen Adult or Orijen 6Fish? Just wondering what results you got with them. Thanks.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

I saw the Zeus Pet Supply has become a distributor for Dr. Tim's. This will add close to 20 more states including Southern California. I went on the Zeus website and you can actually search for the retail stores that stock from Zeus.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

artbuc said:


> Wagners's Mom, thanks for this level-headed post. I agree re grain-free; been there, done that. Have you tried Dr Tim's, Orijen Adult or Orijen 6Fish? Just wondering what results you got with them. Thanks.


Thank you artbuc.  

I honestly have not tried Dr Tims or Orijen. I prefer to buy my dog food locally and Dr Tims is not found here. Also I believe there is chicken in all of his formulas (I just quickly glanced before), so that rules it out for us as Wagner cannot eat it. On paper, I like the looks of the food and it is one I would consider if it was local and if he could eat chicken. 

I did try a small bag of Acana, years ago--but something didn't agree with Wagner on it. Hindsight, it was probably the chicken (in that particular formula I tried), but he also wasn't enthusastic about eating it enough for me to keep digging and trying to "force" the issue. I did consider giving it another try here about a month ago--but decided to try Fromm again as I had had wonderful results with it in the past. But, after two days of adding in just one cup each day for Wagner, he developed 4 hot spots and was absolutely miserable. So I went back to PP SSS and am going to leave well enough alone. And pray he doesn't develop a reaction to it. 

Also, I personally feel like Orijen (and Acana) has too high of protein for my dogs. My dogs are not performance dogs, they are not baby makers and they are not overly active. Wagner is 10 and he is slowing down and I would be afraid that too much protein for him, especially, would do more harm than good. My dogs do well, and have always done well, on a protein level of around 25% and fat around 15-16%, so that is where I tend to stay (within a few). 

I hope this helps explain why I do what *I* do. Doesn't make me right, I just do what I do based on past results, current results and their needs. I'm open to tweaking as needed to ensure that I'm giving them what *they* need, but I'm also in the club of "don't fix what isn't broken".  (although I have weak moments on this far too often! ha ha).


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Feed whatever works best for you and your pet!

I was burned by Nestle Purina myself so I will never buy another 1 of their products unless I have absolutely no other choice.

I feed FROMM's Chicken a la Veg to mine. It works for them and for me.


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## mamalamb (Jan 21, 2012)

Wagners Mom said:


> Grain free does not equal the best. IMO, there is a place for grain free, but it's not in my house. Not with the dogs I currently have as they actually do NOT do well on potatoes. (which a lot of grain frees have). They do much better on rice inclusive foods.
> 
> With that said--If he refuses the TOTW, stop feeding it. I don't trust Diamond and I would be concerned that he knows something you can't see. Listen to him and don't force him to eat a food that could be a problem. Maybe not, but I would rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this post. That is the way we are feeling...a little nervous that he knows something we don't kind of thing...He was SCARFING that food down for weeks and then one day he sniffed it, looked at me, and walked away. Chewed a few kibbles, looked at us like, this is gross, and wouldn't eat any more of it. While clearly hungry and excited to eat other things, including the dreaded Puppy Chow. 

I tried, again, his TOTW this morning and the same thing. Then I just started to get a bad feeling about it and took it away, he is eating the Puppy Chow for now, I'll go out later and get something else, hopefully at least a little better than Puppy Chow lol. This is the first time we have had a dog and been in a position to afford a great food and now he wants Puppy chow :doh: My neighbors have a 12 year old german shepherd who has been on Pro Plan and he looks amazing, so we may try a bag of that....not sure...

And then I have to beg the feed store to take back the brand new 30 pound bag of unopened TOTW we bought last week...and I can't find the receipt so that should go well LOL


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

mamalamb said:


> Thanks for this post. That is the way we are feeling...a little nervous that he knows something we don't kind of thing...He was SCARFING that food down for weeks and then one day he sniffed it, looked at me, and walked away. Chewed a few kibbles, looked at us like, this is gross, and wouldn't eat any more of it. While clearly hungry and excited to eat other things, including the dreaded Puppy Chow.
> 
> I tried, again, his TOTW this morning and the same thing. Then I just started to get a bad feeling about it and took it away, he is eating the Puppy Chow for now, I'll go out later and get something else, hopefully at least a little better than Puppy Chow lol. This is the first time we have had a dog and been in a position to afford a great food and now he wants Puppy chow :doh: My neighbors have a 12 year old german shepherd who has been on Pro Plan and he looks amazing, so we may try a bag of that....not sure...
> 
> And then I have to beg the feed store to take back the brand new 30 pound bag of unopened TOTW we bought last week...and I can't find the receipt so that should go well LOL


You are welcome.  

The food store should take back your unopened bag of TOTW, with no problems. At least here, they would...so hopefully yours will too! 

If he loves the puppy chow that much, I would guess he'll like Pro Plan too--and it is a step up from puppy chow. But you know, if he will only eat Puppy Chow, at least your feeding him and he is happy. Sometimes it just works for some dogs--so don't feel bad if that is what he'll eat. Maybe try leaving him on Puppy Chow for a while and then later on try to step up to Pro Plan, if you don't want to immediately. 

Best of luck with him.


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## Keragold (May 9, 2008)

Mamalamb, how do you store his food and how long does it take him to get through a bag of food? Alot of folks don't realize that the way you store your food is vitally important in a product that is naturally preserved. Could be the reason he has all of a sudden gone off the TOTW. And to second the opinions of others, feed what works for your dog. If that happens to be Purina, then so be it. If you wany to try other options, there are many out there. Grain Free isn't necessarily the way you want to go. Each dog like each person is different and will thrive on something different according to their genetic makeup, lifestyle, activity level etc. I have four dogs. One does very well on a grain free while the other three eat a food containing grains which works well for them.


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## mamalamb (Jan 21, 2012)

We store it in our dark pantry, in a plastic container. It takes us a little less than a month to go through the bag?


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## Keragold (May 9, 2008)

Okay. A cool dark place is best. A plastic container, not the best if you are pouring straight into it. I leave my food in it's bag, roll down the top as far as possible, especially as the bag drops, and put it in a sealed plastic container that way. With a naturally preserved product, as soon as you open it and the air gets to it, it's nutritional value starts to degrade, so the less exposure to the elements the better. If you pour the dry food directly into the plastic container, the oils etc. can leech into the plastic over time and cause the food to go rancid. You need to thoroughly clean the container between bags. Dogs with their sharp sense of smell are able to determine when the food is going off long before we can. Not saying that is what happened to your TOTW, but quite possible. Most people are also not aware that you can freeze dry food to preserve it's freshness.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I definitely would not offer the TOTW again. He may be sensing that something is not right with the food. Diamond has had recalls and issues with foods in the recent past. I wouldn't chance my pup's health. You can add that to your bargaining with the pet food store if needed.... the fact that you're afraid perhaps there is something wrong with the food since he is reluctant to eat it.... what with all the recalls of late. They'd be hard pressed to give you grief with that!


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Still feeding TOTW without any issues, ever!
TOTW was never contaminated with salmonella. 
I am so surprised that members will trash one food company but still buy from another that has had issues in the past and still does.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

I feed Grandma Lucy's in the morning. I just like their product. I feed Earthborn at night. I've tried many kibbles from Innova prior to their sale to P&G, TOTW before their recall, Acana got to pricey and now I'm hoping to stay with what I'm on as both dogs enjoy it and are doing well. I feed grain free just because Tayla was very itchy prior to my switching when we got her at 4 months and not so much now. It's a choice. Everyone feels strongly about what they feed and you should do your research and feed what your dog does well on and you can afford. Just do some research about byproducts and unnamed sources of meat.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> If you're unhappy with Puppy Chow, Purina makes some very highly respected foods, including the ProPlan line, which is used by lots of exhibitors and competitors.





tippykayak said:


> Funny how Purina is by far the most popular choice among top breeder/exhibitors...you'd think the most successful people in dog competitions would have figured out that they're feeding their dogs such bad stuff.
> 
> How silly they must feel spending tens of thousands of dollars finishing dogs in the breed ring while cutting corners feeding cheap "fillers" and "garbage."


 
*Thank you!*

I previously was feeding my two BB, they both started having problems with it-loose stools. 

I went to the Nutrition Section here on the forum and started reading about Purina Pro Plan for Sensitive Skin and Stomach. A member had switched her boy to it because several members on the forum recommended it to her. The before and after pictures she posted of her boy were amazing.

I felt I had nothing to loose at this point, I was struggling to get 10-15 lbs. on my boy that I had recently adopted from my County Humane Society and had to get three extensions on his Neuter deadline. The Vet felt he needed to gain 10-15 lbs. before he should be neutered.

I had a previous misconception about the Purina Products until I received the recommendations from members and found how many were feeding their dogs Purina Pro Plan. 

Within a few days of switching both my goldens to PPP SS, I started seeing major improvements. They are still eating PPP SS and are doing extremely well on it. 

The key is to find a dog food that works for your dog(s) and stick with it. All dogs are different, some will do well on a particular brand while others will not.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

cgriffin said:


> Still feeding TOTW without any issues, ever!
> TOTW was never contaminated with salmonella.
> I am so surprised that members will trash one food company but still buy from another that has had issues in the past and still does.


 

TOTW did have a recall in May with all the Diamond plant issues. UPDATED: CORRECT PRODUCTION CODE INFORMATION Diamond Pet Foods Expands Voluntary Recall of Dry Pet Food Due to Potential Salmonella Contamination Diamond makes many brands, including TOTW, and has had numerous and repeated quality control issues. For many, that's a deal buster. Personally, I will not feed a Diamond made food for that reason.

Here's a pretty startling report of the S Carolina plant. Note both references I made are from FDA sites. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutF...cy/ORA/ORAElectronicReadingRoom/UCM304252.pdf


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Voluntary recall, yes. I never said they did not recall. However, no contamination was found in TOTW.

I just don't get the Purina advocates. I will always think of sweet Zoey. That to me is far worse than a "possible" salmonella contamination.

To be fair, when the melamine poisoning hit the fan, there were more dog food companies involved than just Diamond as far as I know. 

I am not posting to be arguing with you.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

cgriffin said:


> Voluntary recall, yes. I never said they did not recall. However, no contamination was found in TOTW.
> 
> I just don't get the Purina advocates. I will always think of sweet Zoey. That to me is far worse than a "possible" salmonella contamination.
> 
> ...


For me, it's not so much Diamond had a recall--it's the way they handled it. They had complaints of people and dogs getting sick since October, but did not come forth with their voluntary recall until April, I believe it was. And then, they didn't expand it until their balls were to the wall because humans and babies were confirmed sick from dog food with salmonella. I still think they were forced into a voluntary recall--and if they had had their way, they would've stayed closed lips forever--but eventually they couldn't. They still to this day say that no dogs were sick...however, they paid a friends vet bills to the tune of a couple of thousand dollars. I'm sorry, but if there wasn't a problem, I don't see them dishing out thousands of dollars. 

I used to be a dog food snob. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I was. But having a super sensitive dog that has multiple dog food issues, I've had to relook at my own approach to dog food. Because I need to feed what WORKS for him--not necessarily what I thought worked for me. His comfort is what is most important to me. 

And I'll be real honest and say if a Diamond product was the one that I found worked for him--then I would feed him a Diamond product and just pray. But I pray for him (all of them) everyday. That I can do my best to take care of them and keep them as healthy as possible for as long as possible. 

My brother had a 12 year old German Shepherd that he lost this week. She was attacked, in her own yard by something. Whether that something was the neighbor dog--or bobcat--or bear--we'll never know. But another neighbors dog was killed the night before last night--so whatever it is, it's not a fluke. I don't share this to open up my brother to all kinds of criticism--believe me, he is suffering as this dog was his first baby. But I tell it because we truly just never know. He took such good care of her for so long, to lose her tragically. The truth is, we only have our dogs for as long as God allows. Sometimes it's cut way too short, sometimes we wonder what we did wrong to lose them so early--but every time, we always wish it was for longer.

There are brands I prefer not to feed, but by gosh, my dogs will dictate to me from now on what is best for them. Not the other way around. I don't criticize you (or anyone else) for what you feed and I won't. I'll offer my suggestions based on the limited amount of info given in a thread in hopes of helping a poster work through some issues they are desperately trying to fix. And the truth is, Diamond has had recent issues and any time my dogs refuse food (or vomit or diharrea) I will air on the side of caution and consider the possibility that it may be the food, to try to prevent major issues. So that is what I'll always recommend to my friends here, If I think there is even a small chance that it will help. Like any other internet advice, it's up to that person to take it or leave it--to weed through the million bits of advice and try to use what may work for them.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

All dog food recalls are "voluntary" since there is no governing body that has the authority to issue mandatory recalls. It's only one of many problems with the dog food industry. Dr Marion Nestle has a couple books on the pet food industry which are very eye opening to say the least.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> All dog food recalls are "voluntary" since there is no governing body that has the authority to issue mandatory recalls. It's only one of many problems with the dog food industry. Dr Marion Nestle has a couple books on the pet food industry which are very eye opening to say the least.


The FDA recently obtained the authority to force a recall. You are right though for years it never had the power.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

WasChampionFan said:


> The FDA recently obtained the authority to force a recall. You are right though for years it never had the power.


They've been able to issue a recall of pet food all along if/when there were implications to human health (as with salmonella) though, no?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Wagners Mom said:


> For me, it's not so much Diamond had a recall--it's the way they handled it. They had complaints of people and dogs getting sick since October, but did not come forth with their voluntary recall until April, I believe it was. And then, they didn't expand it until their balls were to the wall because humans and babies were confirmed sick from dog food with salmonella. I still think they were forced into a voluntary recall--and if they had had their way, they would've stayed closed lips forever--but eventually they couldn't. They still to this day say that no dogs were sick...however, they paid a friends vet bills to the tune of a couple of thousand dollars. I'm sorry, but if there wasn't a problem, I don't see them dishing out thousands of dollars.
> 
> I used to be a dog food snob. I'm ashamed to admit it, but I was. But having a super sensitive dog that has multiple dog food issues, I've had to relook at my own approach to dog food. Because I need to feed what WORKS for him--not necessarily what I thought worked for me. His comfort is what is most important to me.
> 
> ...


Okay, I am not trying to pick on you and you KNOW this 

But, when Purina had that melamine recall and people were filing class action lawsuits Purina pulled the "Pets are property so therefore we wont pay you for anything" yet on commercials they claim pets are "family" and therefore need to be fed like "family". Same crap when MikaTallulah lost her Zoey to Purina products, they could care less about it. 

That to me, is poor handling of an issue. So its not just Diamond.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Diamond has had recurring issues over and over and over again though. The FDA report on the South Carolina plant was pretty shocking at the lack of basic hygiene in the plant. That puts many many different foods at risk.

Here is the FDA listing of the complete melamine listing; Melamine contaminated Pet Foods - 2007 Recall List


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> Okay, I am not trying to pick on you and you KNOW this
> 
> But, when Purina had that melamine recall and people were filing class action lawsuits Purina pulled the "Pets are property so therefore we wont pay you for anything" yet on commercials they claim pets are "family" and therefore need to be fed like "family". Same crap when MikaTallulah lost her Zoey to Purina products, they could care less about it.
> 
> That to me, is poor handling of an issue. So its not just Diamond.


You know....I'm sure if we dig hard enough, we can find issues with just about all companies--and I'm sure most of them aren't saints. 

It all boils down to one's preference and what one is most comfortable with. If the recent recalls were Purina, I may be hesitant to feed it--but they weren't, so I'm not going to dwell about it.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Wagners Mom said:


> You know....I'm sure if we dig hard enough, we can find issues with just about all companies--and I'm sure most of them aren't saints.
> 
> It all boils down to one's preference and what one is most comfortable with. If the recent recalls were Purina, I may be hesitant to feed it--but they weren't, so I'm not going to dwell about it.


Until Purina has another recall that is


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I prefer a company that recalls readily to one that hides behind a "holistic" label.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I prefer a company that recalls readily to one that hides behind a "holistic" label.


I prefer a company that does not think melamine has some form of nutrition value . Which company "hides" behind a holistic label....?


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> I prefer a company that does not think melamine has some form of nutrition value . Which company "hides" behind a holistic label....?


Champion has had several recalls and at least one importation ban. There have also been confirmed moldy bags of food when they were trying to figure out how to dry the food with smelling up the town, Also, if you really look hard at the information gathered by the people in Australia with dead cats you will find that the company was probably not the victim it claims it was. You see Champion works the forums really really well, and is very good at creating a myth. Champion is not family owned and does not use regional ingredients.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I prefer a company that does not think melamine has some form of nutrition value . Which company "hides" behind a holistic label....?


Plenty of "holistic" companies have been slow to recall when dogs apparently got sick on the food. I'm really not interested in bashing companies other people use to feed their dogs. My point is that tainted supplies or other manufacturing problems can happen to any brand. There's nothing about being "holistic" that protects you from unethical suppliers or salmonella contamination.

And what is the purpose of your first comment except to be confrontational? No dog food company intentionally allowed melamine into their food, and all the ones involved in that scare the first time around now test directly for melamine from their suppliers, even though they typically don't use the same suppliers anymore.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

WasChampionFan said:


> Champion has had several recalls and at least one importation ban. There have also been confirmed moldy bags of food when they were trying to figure out how to dry the food with smelling up the town, Also, if you really look hard at the information gathered by the people in Australia with dead cats you will find that the company was probably not the victim it claims it was. You see Champion works the forums really really well, and is very good at creating a myth. Champion is not family owned and does not use regional ingredients.


The recall in Australia was not Champions fault. Australia treated Champions food with radiation, which is why the cats got sick. Yes, they do use regional ingredients and no vitamins are sourced from China. 

"All of our minerals are produced and sourced exclusively in Canada. Our vitamins come primarily from North America; if they are not available from North America we source from three European producers. Vitamins sourced outside of North America come from Switzerland, Germany, and France and are produced in these countries exclusively. We do not source or use vitamins or minerals produced in any other countries."

Which country banned Champion from importing? Also, I assume the second the companies you rep for have a recall you will hate them to? 



tippykayak said:


> Plenty of "holistic" companies have been slow to recall when dogs apparently got sick on the food. I'm really not interested in bashing companies other people use to feed their dogs. My point is that tainted supplies or other manufacturing problems can happen to any brand. There's nothing about being "holistic" that protects you from unethical suppliers or salmonella contamination.
> 
> And what is the purpose of your first comment except to be confrontational? No dog food company intentionally allowed melamine into their food, and all the ones involved in that scare the first time around now test directly for melamine from their suppliers, even though they typically don't use the same suppliers anymore.


It only took the death of hundreds of animals for them to test for Melamine. Also, they never paid anyone for the deaths of their "property" which is the law Purina and many other companies hid behind when owners started asking for compensation for their loss. They didnt care, they just care about making big bucks.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Acana was banned from entering the US for salmonella a few years back. As for Australia, read the documents found by a woman in Australia under the Freedom of Information Act there that paints quite a different picture. You can easily find it. In these documents it is disclosed that much of the protein in the food comes from Griffin Industries in Alabama.

Issues Surrounding Champion Petfoods Orijen recall in Australia
ALL US Ingredients - Was on Orijen, now what?
_www.lab-retriever.net/.../7390886-*champion*-*petfoods*-turning-over-..._

From the person that led the charge for Australian pet owners "The Cats Mother" . This is in the second thread. Pro Plan's spotless record looks pretty good, as does Dr. Tim's.

*"Just to set the record straight about Orijen, whilst it is manufactured in Canada by Champion Petfoods, all the products are not Canadian and are not fresh as their blurb would suggest. The meal has been sourced in the past (and possibly currently) from a rendering plant called Griffin Industries in the USA. Griffin Industries collect the usual dead cattle/other animals, grease trap waste, bakery waste and quite possibly floor sweepings from bakeries and abbatoirs as do some rendering plants, and render it all down for resale for inclusion in animal feed and pet food. *

_*I know this for a fact because I have seen documents that were obtained under the Australian Freedom of Information Act in order to ascertain whether Champion knew in advance that their kibble would be gamma irradiated upon entry to Australia to meet our strict quarantine regulations. Champion claimed they didn't know. The documents show that their Australian importer/distributor had contacted Champion to obtain consent and he confirmed back to Australian Quarantine that they had agreed to the irradiation. Obtaining the documents from the Australian Government was carried out to learn the facts of the matter and in an effort to learn what else might be in the food (apart from what they claimed to have put in) that could have been damaged by gamma irradiation and caused the deaths and paralysis of Australian cats. *_

_*Gamma irradiation of cat food in Australia has now been banned by the government. The RSPCA and some pet owners are still lobbying to have the process banned on all pet food. Champion withdrew from Australia when it happened, threw a few dollars our way, made a sizeable contribution to a cat charity (which the owners could well have used for vets bills) and thus effectively virtually quarantined themselves from legal action. And one prominent veterinary neurologist is on record stating that they threatened vets who spoke out against them with litigation. They took over 3 months to admit there was a problem and withdraw their food from sale here, and given that the syndrome of paralysis took four months to manifest after onset of feeding, many more cats were affected than needed to be. I wouldn't touch their products now with a barge pole if I lived anywhere they were sold because I have seen how vicious and litigious they can be if anyone says a word against them if anything goes wrong. *_

_*You may wish to moderate this post but before you do please contact me and I will be happy to post links to all the documents and evidence held in online file storage."*_


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> It only took the death of hundreds of animals for them to test for Melamine. Also, they never paid anyone for the deaths of their "property" which is the law Purina and many other companies hid behind when owners started asking for compensation for their loss. They didnt care, they just care about making big bucks.


Do you care to back up any of what you're saying with documentation? It's not my understanding that hundreds of animals died in the melamine recall in the first place, so the rest of what you're saying doesn't make sense to me.

Typically, these companies pay vet bills in situations where it's clear the food has sickened the animal.

So if you want us to buy that Purina was totally callous both in ignoring the problem at first and in taking care of the dogs, cats, and families afterwards, and that the melamine contamination (which applied to products subcontracted to Menu foods, as I recall) killed "hundreds" of dogs, can you provide any evidence that that's the case? Or are you running with some scare story from Truth About Pet Foods?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

According to the FDA report I posted in this thread, the only Purina product listed for melamine was ALPO (that I recognized as being Purina at least).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> According to the FDA report I posted in this thread, the only Purina product listed for melamine was ALPO (that I recognized as being Purina at least).


It was ALPO canned and Mighty Dog bagged stuff, both, I believe, produced by Menu Foods for Purina. I also believe Purina recalled the affected food the same day the FDA announced that it had found melamine contamination.

Purina (and everybody else) now tests all incoming protein sources for melamine. Nobody did it before because it's not an accidental contaminant and nobody thought suppliers would be so evil as to include a poison. Those suppliers added melamine to protein products because it boosts the apparent protein content when you test for protein. These same sickos killed six children in China and sickened hundreds of thousands more by adding it to baby formula, again to artificially boost protein content.

This was _after_ the melamine scandal in pet food that changed a bunch of regulations, and two people were actually executed in that scandal and several others sent to prison.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

For me, rather than grain free, I aim for low carb. I don't mind my dogs having some rice, potato, peas, corn, whatever in their diet, I just don't think it should be a large percentage. My dogs eat a diet high in meat content.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Btw, dogs are omnivores... Learned some interesting fun facts from the Hills rep yesterday. If a pet food label says it is chix, beef, etc, then 95% of that ingredient must be in the food without modifiers. If it is dinner, entree, platter,etc then it contains at least 25% of that ingredient. If it says with then it has at least 3 % of that ingredient. If it says flavor, there is no specific%. If a meat is listed as the first ingredient, in reality, there is less meat available than if the same meat were in "meal" form BECAUSE pure meat is 70% water... And the most common food allergens in dogs are in order: beef, dairy, wheat, chicken, chicken egg, lamb, and soy. No corn!! And the most common allergens in cats are: beef, dairy, and fish. And Purina and Hills both have research facilities so they can say that their food has been tested per AAFCO regulations. Most pet foods are formulated, not tested...
And I do not feed Hills, but there were some valid points that were made...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And valid points were made in favor of corn. It is not a filler. It contains EFA, beta carotene, Vit E, Lutein. The carbohydrate is highly digestible and the protein is good quality..


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Btw, dogs are omnivores... Learned some interesting fun facts from the Hills rep yesterday. If a pet food label says it is chix, beef, etc, then 95% of that ingredient must be in the food without modifiers. If it is dinner, entree, platter,etc then it contains at least 25% of that ingredient. If it says with then it has at least 3 % of that ingredient. If it says flavor, there is no specific%. If a meat is listed as the first ingredient, in reality, there is less meat available than if the same meat were in "meal" form BECAUSE pure meat is 70% water... And the most common food allergens in dogs are in order: beef, dairy, wheat, chicken, chicken egg, lamb, and soy. No corn!! And the most common allergens in cats are: beef, dairy, and fish. And Purina and Hills both have research facilities so they can say that their food has been tested per AAFCO regulations. Most pet foods are formulated, not tested...
> And I do not feed Hills, but there were some valid points that were made...


Anne and I went to a lecture from a Hill's rep at her vet clinic a couple weeks ago. Some of the info was good, but I had problems with some of his info. He insisted ALL grain was GMO and that you should keep your food in garbage bags. He also was quite adamant that heat does not affect the food... storing in the garage in a a hot TX summer is a-ok. Not in my book!:doh:


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