# Nicholberry Goldens, Anyone??



## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I didn't even need to click the link in google as I saw the phrase 'English Creme' which is a marketing scam. I would run away from this breeder. I don't have any breeder advice in your area but I am sure others do.

Welcome to the forum, I am sorry to hear about your other golden.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

A quick check on their website then cross referencing with OFFA.org, I see four dogs with heart clearance, nothing else. In their own website it states:

"_Essentially, breeder choice comes down to three key elements: socialization, pedigree, and health clearances. DO NOT COMPROMISE on any of these three_!!". 

So, I would say they are telling not to compromise by buying one of their pups. Now, of course, you can ask if they have hips, elbows, and eyes but they have not been done by OFA or CERF.

Oh ya, and the English Cream stuff...

_"We recognize that purchasing an English Cream Golden Retriever is a big commitment..."_

Purchasing any dog is a big commitment! I say, do it right, and run from this one.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Honestly, it's frustrating to read things that are just not true on websites. Especially when they are appealing to the emotions of people who have lost a golden to cancer. So my thoughts on them are: 1) There is no such thing as an "English Cream Retriever" - just calling their dogs that name knocks their credibility down significantly; 2) one cannot be a "member" of the AKC - so they shouldn't claim to be; 3) perpetuating the myth that golden retrievers from European heritage are somehow healthier and/or less likely to get cancer is just gross to me. It's not true. 

So, I would pass.


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## attagirl (Aug 11, 2011)

Oh thank you! I saw the heart clearances, and thought "Why wouldn't they do the rest of the testing?" Am I missing something?

I also have an e-mail out to Karen Webb of Star Crowned Goldens. Thet were from the englishgoldens.net referral site.

Thank You!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think Karen Webb is a MUCH better choice. I don't know her personally, but from my understanding she has a good reputation.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

A quick look at their website makes me run the other way. Lots of sweet, cute talk about their dogs, how they named their kennel, gardens, inbreeding, but virtually nothing about clearances. :doh:
I found none of their dogs with elbow clearances, no OFA hip clearances, no CERF for eyes and a smattering of OFA cardiac clearances. And not to mention their talk of ENGLIsH CREAM! 
Not a place I would inquire about a puppy or dog. :no:


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

NORCAL Golden Retriever Club

Check out the puppy referral.

There are also GR rescues in CA.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

attagirl said:


> Oh thank you! I saw the heart clearances, and thought "Why wouldn't they do the rest of the testing?" Am I missing something?
> 
> I also have an e-mail out to Karen Webb of Star Crowned Goldens. Thet were from the englishgoldens.net referral site.
> 
> Thank You!


 
Good job!!!!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

karen webb would be a very good choice for an english style dog if that is what your preference is...and if she doesn't have any pups or is not planning a breeding you might ask her if she can refer you to someone else... most of us know about litters happening in the area


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I've got nothing to add except to reiterate what others have said: "English Cream" can be a red flag for somebody trying to capitalize on the fad (true English-type dogs come in many colors, not just super-light ones).

Clearances and pedigrees should be front and center. The presence or lack of clearances is pretty much the starting point for evaluating a breeder, so if the breeder is cagey about clearances, that's a red flag. If all the breeding dogs have the 4 major clearances (hips, elbows, hearts, and eyes), move forward. If the breeding dogs have incomplete clearances or are missing them entirely, run away. There's a lot more to picking a great breeder, but talking clearances can save you a lot of time, since you'll be able to eliminate a large group of the worst breeders right off the bat.

There are some subtleties to clearances, so give the breeder a chance to talk to you before you run. A breeder can choose to use PennHIP for hips, and then they wouldn't show up in the OFA database. If that's the case, the breeder should have a copy of the dog's PennHIP report to show you, and the dog should be above the 50th percentile on that form (at the very least). Heart clearances, too, don't have to be registered with the OFA as long as they're done by a cardiac specialist. Again, there'd be paperwork you should be shown. Passing hips and elbows done by the OFA are always in the database. For eyes, you want CERFs done every single year and mailed in, ideally, though I'd consider being a bit flexible if the breeder was doing AVCO exams but not registering them, as long as I could see a copy of those exams. That's far from ideal, but at least the dogs are being cleared. Ideally, CERFs should be done and mailed in once a year for a breeding dog's entire life, even after the breeding career is over (because some eye diseases, especially pigmentary uveitis, are late-onset). If the breeder mails the CERFs in properly, you can check them on the CERF website by the dog's name, AKC # or CERF #.


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## krj25189 (Feb 6, 2012)

*Nicholberry Owner*

I feel the need to add to this thread. On the topic of English Creme being a scam I really don't think that's the case. I do think we're talking semantics here. Face it some people want a white poodle, some people want a brindle boxer, some people want a red Golden Retriever and some people want an English Creme Golden Retriever. English Creme refers to the color of the coat. The Nicholberry owners refer to their dogs as Golden's and their goal is to help breed a family dog that has a reduced chance of illness that has run rampant in the American goldens. When working with them and speaking to the owner she has clearly pointed out that the shade of the dog isn't as important as the right fit for the family and even if I fell in love with one puppy that the personality would have to be the right fit. She wouldn't allow a very active puppy to go to my lazy family. MANY MANY people out there are looking for a specific color dog and sometimes are not thinking about the fact that different dogs have different personalities. I have a Nicholberry Puppy and I can visibly see the Pedigree line, the OFA scores for heart, hips, eyes, and elbows. I checked this on the OFA website for verification and the K9data site. There is a 2 year guarantee with these dogs and the owner is VERY particular as she's not a puppy mill and her dogs are her family pets. They don't live in cages outside they sleep in bed with her kids. I appreciate this site and think it's fantastic to have so many people looking out for bad breeders but I have to say I'm a Nicholberry Mommy and very very happy! I do not work for Nicholberry and do not have any vested interest in them but wanted to share some information from someone who has a pet from them. They're website isn't as informative as many others out there but I think it's because Ms. Nichols wants to know you personally before she will allow you to buy one of the puppies from her family. 

Wishing you all the very best!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think that’s wonderful you had a great experience and I have no doubt that you love your dog. But there are some serious issues here with deceptive advertising on their website, at least there were when I looked at it. I don’t think I’ve ever quoted myself, but here we go: 



> Honestly, it's frustrating to read things that are just not true on websites. Especially when they are appealing to the emotions of people who have lost a golden to cancer. So my thoughts on them are: 1) There is no such thing as an "English Cream Retriever" - just calling their dogs that name knocks their credibility down significantly; 2) one cannot be a "member" of the AKC - so they shouldn't claim to be; 3) perpetuating the myth that golden retrievers from European heritage are somehow healthier and/or less likely to get cancer is just gross to me. It's not true.
> 
> So, I would pass.


Again, I have no doubt that you love your dog and apparently had a good experience with this breeder. But telling untruths for the sake of selling puppies is just NOT ok.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

krj25189 said:


> I feel the need to add to this thread. On the topic of English Creme being a scam I really don't think that's the case. I do think we're talking semantics here. Face it some people want a white poodle, some people want a brindle boxer, some people want a red Golden Retriever and some people want an English Creme Golden Retriever. English Creme refers to the color of the coat. The Nicholberry owners refer to their dogs as Golden's and their goal is to help breed a family dog that has a reduced chance of illness that has run rampant in the American goldens. When working with them and speaking to the owner she has clearly pointed out that the shade of the dog isn't as important as the right fit for the family and even if I fell in love with one puppy that the personality would have to be the right fit. She wouldn't allow a very active puppy to go to my lazy family. MANY MANY people out there are looking for a specific color dog and sometimes are not thinking about the fact that different dogs have different personalities. I have a Nicholberry Puppy and I can visibly see the Pedigree line, the OFA scores for heart, hips, eyes, and elbows. I checked this on the OFA website for verification and the K9data site. There is a 2 year guarantee with these dogs and the owner is VERY particular as she's not a puppy mill and her dogs are her family pets. They don't live in cages outside they sleep in bed with her kids. I appreciate this site and think it's fantastic to have so many people looking out for bad breeders but I have to say I'm a Nicholberry Mommy and very very happy! I do not work for Nicholberry and do not have any vested interest in them but wanted to share some information from someone who has a pet from them. They're website isn't as informative as many others out there but I think it's because Ms. Nichols wants to know you personally before she will allow you to buy one of the puppies from her family.
> 
> Wishing you all the very best!


Welcome to the GRF! :wavey: 
I am glad you are pleased with your pup, but this breeder is not one I would recommend to anyone. Period.
The things you mention in defense of this breeder are mostly good things but there is a LOT MORE required of them to be responsible. The fact that they display the OFA insignia on their webpages but none of the bitches, some already having been bred, have OFA elbow or hip clearances is truly DECEPTIVE to anyone not knowing better. And many do not unfortunately. 
Hope you will hang here longer and continue to post throughout the forum and see what we are talking about. :crossfing


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Nicholberry is a member here and has occasionally shown up to "defend" breeding her dogs at 12-13 months of age.



> I can visibly see the Pedigree line, the OFA scores for heart, hips, eyes, and elbows. I checked this on the OFA website for verification and the K9data site.


I doubt that you found hips, eyes, and elbows on either OFA or the k9data site. With the exception of Moses, none of her other dogs have FINAL hip or elbow clearances listed with OFA and NONE of them have verifiable CERF's. 


Her males:
Raynox Inside Edition - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - no verifiable CERF. His first litter was born when he was 13 months old.

Dreamkeeper Legacy Of Dreams - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - just turned 2 a couple of months ago so his hips and elbows could still be processing. No verifiable CERF clearance though.

Her females:
Nicholberry's Destiny In The Desert - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - turned 2 in Oct 2011. Only verifiable clearance at this time is a Cardiac clearance.

Nicholberrys Tess Of The D'Urbervills - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - no verifiable hip, elbow, or CERF clearances. Had her first litter at 16 months old.

Raynox Release Sweet Smile - listed on her site but if you click on it, you get -> Nicholberry's New Year's Resolution - born 01/01/2010 - no AKC record by this name, no OFA record either.

Nicholberry's Jewel Of The Nile - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - born 01/27/2010 - owner lists her as getting the "very distinguished honor of an OFA EXCELLENT". Since she just turned 2, this has to be a pre-lim only.

Rainox Release Dream of Showflake - born 9/5/2010.

On her upcoming litters page, she has 3 litters: all 3 are sired by Moses. 2 of them are out of bitches with Cardiac clearances but no verifiable hips, elbows or CERF. The other bitch has no verifiable clearances (possibly because she just turned 2 in January).

So, no. If you saw clearances, what you saw were probably pre-lims only for hips and elbows, and possibly the eye exam forms. The dogs are not considered CERF'd until that form is sent in and registered with CERF.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

they use the GRCA logo on the bottom of the home page of their website as well....


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## krj25189 (Feb 6, 2012)

Thank you for the Welcome and I wasn't trying to start a firestorm. I just wanted to give you a first hand from an actual owner. I'm a Mom not a breeder or a vet or a dog expert. I'm just a Mom that wanted a great puppy from a normal person that wasn't a puppy mill and I feel like that's what I got and just wanted to share my first hand experience is all. 

Ragtyme, Moses is my girl's father so yes I checked him specifically out and I also checked the mother which is not a Nicolberry and she's good too.


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## eeneymeanymineymo (Oct 5, 2009)

What everyone else has said.........

AND they are NOT members of the GRCA!!! They have been reported to the Internet watchdog for the use of the GRCA logo (which they are not to have on their website) and claiming membership which they are not on the 2012 membership roster.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

attagirl said:


> Oh thank you! I saw the heart clearances, and thought "Why wouldn't they do the rest of the testing?" Am I missing something?
> 
> I also have an e-mail out to Karen Webb of Star Crowned Goldens. Thet were from the englishgoldens.net referral site.
> 
> Thank You!


 
Karen does have a good reputation and would be a MUCH better choice. She has been working with goldens for a number of years and does a good job.


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## scottnorm (May 17, 2013)

This is an old thread that I came across as I was searching for my sister's website, and quite frankly I was shocked. I am not an expert on golden retrievers, but I am 46 years old and I believe that I have lived a grand total of 8 years without a golden retriever by my side (those 8 years were spent with a black lab). So, Sam is my 4th golden retriever. I purchased him from a Houston breeder before my sister decided to start breeding. Like the goldens preceding him, Sam is a part of our life and is never more than 10' from our side at any time, but I am not the animal lover in the family -- Kerry is. Now, I don't know much about clearances, the proper or improper use of the word "crème" or "cream", logos, "members", etc., but I will speak to Kerry. She is on a mission to create healthy, happy and well adjusted puppies for their owners. She spends more money and time on this "hobby" than any reasonable person should. I live in Dallas - she lives in CA. When we came for dinner last thanksgiving (she couldn't leave the house because of the puppies), we all had to greet her in whispers (because no loud noises permitted around the puppies). We then had to wash our hands before holding any of the puppies. The puppies are the priority in her life. They are never left unattended. Two years ago, she missed Thanksgiving because she couldn't leave the puppies and the puppies were to young to allow my loud family. She literally pours her heart and soul into each and every one of these puppies. On one of the days, she had to deliver one of the puppies to their new home, and she was on the verge of crying at having to let him go. So, when I came across this post and some of the comments, I felt compelled to respond. You've heard from one person that actually knows Kerry and this board proceeded to challenge her. Instead of crucifying her on this board with talk of "red flags" and other speculation, why don't one of you pick up the phone and give her a call and ask her some questions about her dogs? Aside from being one of the most caring persons I know, she is also one of the most intelligent. I'm sure she could handle all of your questions right off the top of her head. She has a doctorate, and when she starts speaking to me about the genetics of dog breeding, my eyes glaze over, but perhaps you experts will be better equipped to engage her.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Being caring or loving her dogs has nothing to do with the "red flags" that were raised on the forum. The red flags are data-specifically clearances that she insinuates she is doing on her dogs by displaying an OFA banner on her website when they are not being done.

It is very easy to take a dogs registered name and punch it into the OFA search engine to see if a dog has the recommended clearances. As posted, in great detail above, her dogs do not. They are missing hip, elbow and CERF(eye clearances) The fact that on some of the dogs, there are clearances done tells the story that she knows that these clearances are in the best interest of the puppies produced to do them. The fact that she has chosen not to do them, again tells another story.

This is not something that you need to pick up the phone or talk to someone about. The clearances have either been done or they have not. Again, in this case, they have not.

Not quite sure about the doctorate thing but there is no such thing as a doctorate in dog breeding. A person could have one in genetics, but then again, that person would also have more than a basic understanding of population genetics and would be doing the recommended clearances.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

To be fair, she has gotten a lot of the clearances done since I last posted. However, she has some newer bitches that do not.

Raynox Inside Edition - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - has all clearances now. 

Dreamkeeper Legacy Of Kings (not Dreams) - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - has Cardiac clearance and hip clearance. No eye clearance or elbow clearance listed. She does not have him listed on her site any longer.

Her females:
Nicholberry's Destiny In The Desert - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - has all clearances now.

Nicholberrys Tess Of The D'Urbervills - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - has all but current eye clearance now. Eye clearance expired in April, 2012

Rainox (not Raynox) Release Sweet Smile - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - no Cardiac clearance.

Nicholberry's Jewel Of The Nile - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - has all clearances.

Rainox Release Dream of Showflake - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - has all clearances.

New bitches - 

Milbu Snow-Flake, dob 1/1/2011. She had her first litter at 21 months. She has an OFA eye clearance (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and a Cardiac clearance (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals). She just turned 2 so may be in the process of getting her hip/elbow clearances.

Tramin Hara Mamburu, dob 6/19/2011 - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals - Cardiac and eye clearance. Too young for final clearances.

Babelsbergi Cakes and Bakes, dob 5/18/2011 - has foreign clearances listed for hips/elbows but no clearances listed in OFA for Cardiac or eyes. Is listed as a dam of an Upcoming litter. 

Aislinn Dazzling Ray of Avilys, dob 1/1/2010 - has foreign clearances listed for hips/elbows but no clearances in OFA for Cardiac or eyes. Is listed as a dam of an upcoming litter.

Obviously, Cakes and Bakes is too young for final clearances but Dazzling Ray is not. The website doesn't say when Cakes and Bakes is being bred so it is still possible that she could get final clearances before the litter. 

One red flag I still see - it looks like nearly every litter Nicholberry has been sired by Moses. It's highly unlikely that he is the best match for every bitch that she owns.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

ragtym said:


> To be fair, she has gotten a lot of the clearances done since I last posted. However, she has some newer bitches that do not.
> 
> New bitches -
> 
> ...


While it is nice to see that some of the clearances are being done, I still find it rather disturbing that she would have a girl have her first litter at 21 mos old. That means she was bred at around 19 months old. I have owned goldens well over 20 years and there are a rare few who would be mentally up to the job of raising a litter at that age. There is also the issue that hip and elbow clearances cannot be done until a dog is 2 years old. 

Both mom and dad give 50% of their DNA to a litter but mom plays a more important role because she raises the puppies. If she is a poor mother because of a younger age and because she is lacking mental maturity, this will affect the puppies and there is nothing that the breeder can do to make up for this deficiency. I, personally, have waited to breed girls until they were 3 and some 4 years old because we were busy attaining titles and because they were not mentally ready to take on the role of being a mother. Just because a female dog is having heat cycles does not mean that she is ready to deal with the job of being a mother.

I also agree that it is highly unlikely that Moses is the best dog for every litter and female that she owns. It is quite obvious that he is the most convenient but breeding and having a breeding program involves quite a bit more than convenience.

I did also have one other issue with the brother's post and that was that when they were visiting, they had to be quiet because of the puppies. With 2 human children and their friends and our other goldens, our house is anything but quiet. However, I do believe that one of the reasons that people want our dogs is because of how well they are socialized and ready to take on the world. That doesn't involve keeping them in a quiet home and tip-toeing around them.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

hvgoldens4 said:


> I did also have one other issue with the brother's post and that was that when they were visiting, they had to be quiet because of the puppies. With 2 human children and their friends and our other goldens, our house is anything but quiet. However, I do believe that one of the reasons that people want our dogs is because of how well they are socialized and ready to take on the world. That doesn't involve keeping them in a quiet home and tip-toeing around them.


I wondered about that too. As a litter raiser for future service dogs, we have always been told to expose the pups to normal household sounds. The whelping box is to be kept in a well used area of the house, where they are exposed to everything a busy household entails. I do, however, protect the puppies from teenage music played at a 100 decibels, although that maybe as much for my benefit as theirs.


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