# I think I made a mistake



## supercoop

I'm new to showing. I don't have a mentor as of yet..just haven't found one. I thought I did my homework and found the perfect prospect puppy. The breeder is well know and has been winning in the show ring. Pedigree is, what I was told, an awesome pedigree. I purchased puppy but puppy will not be shipped until later next week due to weather. 
I keep looking at the pictures and to my untrained eye, I just don't see a show puppy. I don't think she's "typey". ( she's an English cream). I don't plan to get heavy into the show world, but id at least like to know I got what I paid for if that makes sense. She is 12 weeks and starting the uglies but even with her 7 week pics..I just don't see it. Sire and dam are gorgeous so I'm hoping for the ugly duckling, beautiful swan turnout! Anyone care to take a look and give your opinion?


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## Loukia

I would love to see a picture! I can't imagine any 12 week old being anything but adorable.


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## cubbysan

Did your breeder know you were looking for a show dog?

When I bought my show dog, my breeder ( who co-owns with me ) made sure I realized at 8 weeks old they are "show prospects". What you see at 8 weeks old might not be what you see as an adult. 

Things I have learned through this board, from my breeder and from my puppy.

1) Not all puppies mature the same way and speed. My fifteen month old still looks very puppy, at this point we will enter her in the few local shows but mostly for practice.

2) Pictures do not show what you see and feel in person

3) Puppies do go through awkward stages 

4) Certain styles will be liked by certain judges and hated by others

Would love to see some pictures.

Edit: there have been many times in the past year I have looked at my puppy and thought the same thing - but then again, I am new and don't have an eye yet for the standard. I have had to have my breeder and her co-breeder tell me what they see in my puppy, oh and one thing that is very important that you can not see in pictures, is her movement.


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## hotel4dogs

Puppies at 12 weeks old look nothing like they will as adults.
You can get a general idea at exactly 8 weeks, but not at 12.


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## Prism Goldens

Totally agree with Hotel4Dogs. 8 weeks is the week you can guess as to adult conformation. Some puppies you can tell earlier and be reinforced in your thoughts at 8 weeks but once they hit 9 weeks, all bets are off as to being able to judge who'll be the show puppy. If your breeder knows you want a show puppy, and your breeder is comfortable in the conformation world, you should trust him or her.


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## Katduf

Would love to see photos. Can't imagine a golden at any age being anything other than gorgeous!


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## supercoop

I think she's cute, I just dont know if I see show quality, but then again i have no eye. She's also 100% English cream (euro lines) so maybe they differ?


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## supercoop

...........


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## supercoop

Her head to me, seems flat and ears to long...but she is going through the uglies


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## supercoop

..................


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## Selli-Belle

Unfortunately you can't make many judgements from these pictures. The one closest to being stacked is taken from the wrong angle and the human's arm in in the way. Plus the pup is not standing naturally. I guess in this case you really have to trust the breeder.


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## Wenderwoman

I don't know anything about showing but I think she is just gorgeous. I have to say, it kind of made feel a little bad to hear that you are disappointed. Only because I think dogs deserve owners who love them to pieces. If you aren't happy and look at your dog with regret then I don't think the question is if the dog is right for you, it's if you are right for the dog.


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## DJdogman

Wenderwoman said:


> I don't know anything about showing but I think she is just gorgeous. I have to say, it kind of made feel a little bad to hear that you are disappointed. Only because I think dogs deserve owners who love them to pieces. If you aren't happy and look at your dog with regret then I don't think the question is if the dog is right for you, it's if you are right for the dog.


I agree. I feel so sad for this gorgeous puppy that you feel she's a mistake.
I also admit I know nothing about showing.


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## NewfieMom

I do not want to be as nasty as I am about to be, but you do not deserve her. Give her back. The bond you have with her will never be based on what a bond between a dog and human should be. If you have children, I hope for their sake that they turned out to be beautiful and handsome.

NewfieMom


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## supercoop

I love all dogs and never stated I wouldn't love her. My dogs are my family first.
For the record I have not even received the puppy yet. I have not seen her in person, only pictures. 
I say mistake because I set out specifically to find a certain dog. If I just wanted any puppy I would've went to a local breeder or rescue, I think I deserve to be a little picky in my decision. Was you all not picky when looking for your next prospect? This is my first time in this and I just wanted to make the right choice. Im nervous over the amount of money I just spent all on the word of a breeder I do not know, so yes im second guessing myself. Not having the puppy in my possession makes it harder. But again, I never said I wouldn't love or care for the dog. I guess I was more looking for opinions of someone experienced to say what they thought of her. Saying I do not deserve this dog was a little harsh. The comment about my children, even more so. Making me out to be that kind of person is ridiculous and uncalled for!


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## DanaRuns

Well, I understand. When you go out to buy a show dog and look forward to the adventure of showing, you can certainly start to question yourself when your puppy starts to fall apart, as they all do. And I don't think that means you don't love her. There's a difference between loving your pet and being disappointed that you didn't get the right show dog.

Do not be concerned about her head and ears. Long ears is a puppy stage, and the head is the last thing to come back, maybe a year from now, even. She certainly seems to have plenty of bone, and in the 8 week pics a beautiful feminine head. I wouldn't worry. You have a very long way to go.

This funky looking boy just got his championship.










Be very patient. You won't know for a long time. I will say, though, that English cremes do have a harder time winning in the ring just because of the different style. That doesn't mean you won't have an absolutely gorgeous girl, there. You have a long way to go, give it time.

I guess I'm wondering why you still don't have her at 12 weeks. And if you don't even have her yet, why can't you get a different puppy if that's what you want?


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## supercoop

Thank you Dana. That's what I was looking for, proof that the ugly duckling can turn into a swan. I was looking for reassurance because I admitted this is my first go round and I do not know what I'm looking for, other than what I see on tv. Everyone has to start somewhere. 
For the record, I have been in rescue my entire life and have had more than my fair share of the ugly ducklings. Looks don't matter to me, but when you pay thousands for a puppy with a purpose..you get kind of nervous with the unknown. Yes Im aware that not every show quality puppy will pan out, but my nerves are all over the place until I can get my hands on her and get a reputable mentor.


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## rabernet

I guess it's a show thing, this "uglies" stage you are referring to. :gotme:

I also feel sad for her. It seems that she only has value to you if she has a certain conformation, with no regard to any emotional bond you may form with her.


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## supercoop

Again, that's an unfair assumption. I said mistake as in picking which puppy, because let's face it..when picking a "show" puppy do you not pick based on confirmation looks etc? Or do you just go based off personality. Pet puppy sure . But every breeder I've spoke to in my search all chose their dogs based off features looks confirmation etc. So because im doing the same that means I wont bond with the dog? I think not. Im pretty sure it only means ive paid a large amount of money for a puppy I've yet to see and are a tad nervous considering im not fully educated on the subject. In no way does it dictate that I will not bond with the dog. Second guessing my choice was based off is she show quality or not.


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## K9-Design

Hi! I'm a little confused by this post. First and most important question -- what country do you live in?

The "english" style golden can be successfully and easily finished in Canada or Europe but not the US. It is the rare and more moderate "english" style that can finish or even do any sort of winning in the US -- and typically these are handled by pros or very established breeder-owner-handlers to very specific judges.

So I'm leary of anyone who is selling you an "English cream" as a show dog in the US. (If you're in Canada then just disregard it.)

Secondly, the parents may be gorgeous but are they show dogs? Does at least one of them have a show Championship title in the country you plan to show in? If not then I think your chances of getting a show dog are slim. 

There is NO DOUBT that ugly ducklings can turn into swans. But you just simply aren't going to finish an English style golden in the US without a lot of hoops to jump through.

Here's Slater at 4 months and as an adult as proof of the ugly duckling theory:


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

Was this litter evaluated by anyone other than the breeder? I know some conscientious breeders have their dogs evaluated by several people in determining their show potential so that it's not just one opinion.

I sort of get what you're going through, because many years ago I wanted a therapy dog candidate and was working with an experienced breeder who assured me my puppy was very loving and people oriented. Wrong. She's reactive and shy and the only human she ever loved on sight was me...the second one she met she backed away and curled her lip. She was nine weeks old. The breeder told me it was my fault. Good times. 

It took me a long time to reconcile my hopes for her with her reality. But she is a funny, affectionate, super-smart and trainable girl and our family would not be complete without her. My husband likes to say that she is a therapy dog...for us.

I'm also curious as to why she's still at the breeder at 12 weeks? Have you met the breeder or has all of this been done long distance?


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## Eowyn

I second what Dana and Anney said!

If you want a show prospect, than you absolutely need to be conscientious on the looks of the dog. It is very different buying a pet than buying a show dog. Do the parents have their AKC championships? If not I would pass. It is very hard to get a "English" golden that is competitive in AKC. 

I am sad to see so many negative comments. Blindly buying a puppy and expecting it to turn out for the show ring is very naive. And buying a puppy for showing that you don't think will make the cut is foolish and is only setting up for issues down the road.

Sometimes the "ugly duckings" do in fact turn out show quality, but all of them showed at least some potential at 8 weeks.


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## Eowyn

Also if you want someone who is familiar with "English" style goldens to look at the pictures and give their opinion, forum member Elly may be able to help. She is showing at Crufts right now, so is probably crazy busy, but she should be able to give you a good idea.


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## DanaRuns

K9-Design said:


> Hi! I'm a little confused by this post. First and most important question -- what country do you live in?
> 
> The "english" style golden can be successfully and easily finished in Canada or Europe but not the US. It is the rare and more moderate "english" style that can finish or even do any sort of winning in the US -- and typically these are handled by pros or very established breeder-owner-handlers to very specific judges.
> 
> So I'm leary of anyone who is selling you an "English cream" as a show dog in the US. (If you're in Canada then just disregard it.)
> 
> Secondly, the parents may be gorgeous but are they show dogs? Does at least one of them have a show Championship title in the country you plan to show in? If not then I think your chances of getting a show dog are slim.
> 
> There is NO DOUBT that ugly ducklings can turn into swans. But you just simply aren't going to finish an English style golden in the US without a lot of hoops to jump through.
> 
> Here's Slater at 4 months and as an adult as proof of the ugly duckling theory:
> 
> View attachment 504066
> 
> View attachment 504074


Good post. And why do the puppies always have to sit in the dishwasher???


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## Megora

I didn't want to be discouraging and could not think of a good way of saying this - but what Anney posted was exactly what went through my head. If one or both the parents are AM CH dogs, then knock on wood you probably will have a more moderate dog who will do well in AKC show rings.... I also was wondering why you didn't have a puppy yet at 12 weeks unless he was coming over the border? 

About some of the negative comments on this thread... it's really unkind to holler at somebody who purchased a dog for a purpose and is beginning to have second thoughts about whether they made the right decision or if things are not turning out right.


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## rabernet

I owe the OP an apology. As I have never shown, and only plan to have mine as a pet, I didn't have the entire picture as to her concerns. I will be more careful before jumping in with my more emotional side in the future. 

Good luck with whatever you decide! She's a pretty girl!


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## Tahnee GR

I understand completely the OP's feelings. A dog purchased with a specific purpose is a bit different than one purchased strictly as a pet-and often carries a higher price tag.

Does your breeder show in International, UKC, AKC or Canadian shows? The bars for successfully finishing a dog, as well as the style of dog that will do well, varies greatly in these areas.

And I also agree that none of those pictures are good for evaluating the puppy. Are they from the breeder? If she shows successfully, I cannot imagine she could not have gotten better pictures than those. Does she know you want to show? Not every puppy in a litter is show quality.


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## Wenderwoman

Eowyn said:


> I second what Dana and Anney said!
> 
> If you want a show prospect, than you absolutely need to be conscientious on the looks of the dog. It is very different buying a pet than buying a show dog. Do the parents have their AKC championships? If not I would pass. It is very hard to get a "English" golden that is competitive in AKC.
> 
> I am sad to see so many negative comments. Blindly buying a puppy and expecting it to turn out for the show ring is very naive. And buying a puppy for showing that you don't think will make the cut is foolish and is only setting up for issues down the road.
> 
> Sometimes the "ugly duckings" do in fact turn out show quality, but all of them showed at least some potential at 8 weeks.


I don't think it's a negative comment to tell them not to buy a dog they feel they will regret buying. The dog deserves an owner that adores them. They should buy a dog they adore. I would say it whether they were buying it for show or as a family pet just the same.

If she thinks she'll regret it, I don't think she should take the dog. That's not a judgment against her. It is simply my advice.

My dog stole my heart the moment I saw her. I think people should feel that way about their dog when they get them - not be hesitant, wonder if it's a mistake or regret it. That's just me though.


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## Eowyn

Wenderwoman said:


> I don't think it's a negative comment to tell them not to buy a dog they feel they will regret buying. The dog deserves an owner that adores them. They should buy a dog they adore. I would say it whether they were buying it for show or as a family pet just the same.
> 
> If she thinks she'll regret it, I don't think she should take the dog. That's not a judgment against her. It is simply my advice.
> 
> My dog stole my heart the moment I saw her. I think people should feel that way about their dog when they get them - not be hesitant, wonder if it's a mistake or regret it. That's just me though.


I totally agree with you there! My point was more that the comments _in my perception_ were much more personally stated than what you just now said, and could have been taken as a insult. But that was just my perception of some of the comments, and may not be accurate as to how they were meant.


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## cubbysan

I was thinking, every single puppy or kitten I have brought home in the past couple decades, I have always had some type of anxiety or feeling that I would regret it. Pet and rescue. It is a big step, life changing and a big commitment. Waiting just makes the brain even think more. Once they are home, never any regrets.


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## NewfieMom

There is something wrong with this discussion. Something off.

The original poster has every right to pick a dog extremely carefully if she wishes to show the dog. Naturally she should be looking at the dog's pedigree. She should, if she does not have enough knowledge herself, be getting an enormous amount of help and support from others as she informs herself about what she must look for in the dog of her dreams.

I have seen many members, some who want to show their dogs, and some who are "just" extremely particular about what kind of conformation, temperament, and/or field ability they will get in their pet, labor for years to search for the perfect (for them) dog.

One of the women I love on this forum, Doug (Julie), just went through a huge search and-seven months ago finally took home Lexi. I will not name some of the other members whom I have seen recently take home dogs, but one has posted in this thread.

I think that a search or a great dog is wonderful...just as is taking in a rescue. And I have done both myself.

What bothered me-and still does-is that the original poster did not put in sufficient time to search for the right dog. Then she left open the possibility of bringing home an innocent puppy who might come into her home, be found "not beautiful enough", and be returned after she had started to bond. That is why I said that that she did not deserve the puppy.

Someone who is unsure if she wants the puppy shouldn't take it home and leave it open to having to be rehomed. I said what I meant: tell the breeder to forget it. You don't deserve her. You didn't do your homework. You don't know if you want her. She may end up rejected.

My advice is to work harder-a lot harder-on your research next time you look for a show dog.

I did a heck of a lot more research on my Newfoundland, whom I had no plans to show. His sire and dam and their sires and dams are all champions. Then I saw all her dogs in person. And I saw my dog in person. I knew I wasn't going to have to return Griffin.

NewfieMom


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## mylissyk

Where did you see any suggestion she would return the puppy if it didn't turn out to be show quality. I didn't see anything that said that.

Were there pictures? I'd love to see her.


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## Wenderwoman

mylissyk said:


> Where did you see any suggestion she would return the puppy if it didn't turn out to be show quality. I didn't see anything that said that.
> 
> Were there pictures? I'd love to see her.


I think both sides are getting a little too defensive. I agree that she should be 100% confident in her dog before she buys it. That is all that I think me and some of the other posters want to express. We are not trying to say anything bad about the poster.

It is possible to find a dog you adore and are 100% confident in and, since I have found that and others have found that, we are suggesting that it is possible for this person too.

She does not have to settle for a dog she is doubtful about. Which is her business but by saying "mistake," it suggests she may be disappointed and she shouldn't feel that way.

At this point she has a choice but once she gets the dog and REALLY begins to care for it, it will be much harder to turn back.

We only want to let her know that it is okay that if she does not feel that this is the right dog, that it is okay to continue looking for a dog she absolutely feels 100% confident about. I would.


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## supercoop

NewfieMom said:


> There is something wrong with this discussion. Something off.
> 
> The original poster has every right to pick a dog extremely carefully if she wishes to show the dog. Naturally she should be looking at the dog's pedigree. She should, if she does not have enough knowledge herself, be getting an enormous amount of help and support from others as she informs herself about what she must look for in the dog of her dreams.
> 
> I have seen many members, some who want to show their dogs, and some who are "just" extremely particular about what kind of conformation, temperament, and/or field ability they will get in their pet, labor for years to search for the perfect (for them) dog.
> 
> One of the women I love on this forum, Doug (Julie), just went through a huge search and-seven months ago finally took home Lexi. I will not name some of the other members whom I have seen recently take home dogs, but one has posted in this thread.
> 
> I think that a search or a great dog is wonderful...just as is taking in a rescue. And I have done both myself.
> 
> What bothered me-and still does-is that the original poster did not put in sufficient time to search for the right dog. Then she left open the possibility of bringing home an innocent puppy who might come into her home, be found "not beautiful enough", and be returned after she had started to bond. That is why I said that that she did not deserve the puppy.
> 
> Someone who is unsure if she wants the puppy shouldn't take it home and leave it open to having to be rehomed. I said what I meant: tell the breeder to forget it. You don't deserve her. You didn't do your homework. You don't know if you want her. She may end up rejected.
> 
> My advice is to work harder-a lot harder-on your research next time you look for a show dog.
> 
> I did a heck of a lot more research on my Newfoundland, whom I had no plans to show. His sire and dam and their sires and dams are all champions. Then I saw all her dogs in person. And I saw my dog in person. I knew I wasn't going to have to return Griffin.
> 
> NewfieMom


Please tell me where I stated that the dog would be rehomed?? I said no such thing nor did I plan to do so. If the puppy didn't pan out then I'd have a very expensive pet. Aside from rescue work, I have never rehomed me pets. That is an unfair assumption once again. 
And who said I haven't spent months on end researching and talking to breeders and going to shows? I have done all that. This baby was chosen due to not only pedigree but also from recommendation of a very reputable breeder! 
You have all mistaken my nervousness and made it out to be something it isn't. This is my first time paying this much for a puppy. I usually rescue. Im a worry wart by nature and me doubting myself is typical for any decision I make usually. Im not doubting for one minute I wouldn't love or bond with the puppy. That wasn't the question. Question was, did I pick the right one for the job. I was told yes, but I still worry. 

I came here for expert opinion on the puppies confirmation...not to get ridiculed. Thank you to those of you who actually answered the question. To those that want to jump to conclusions, maybe next time ask more details before assuming things.


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## supercoop

The puppies sire is nat. ch/inter ch ukc ch amoung others. Mother is on her way but not ch yet. Both the dams parents are championed same with the sire.


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## supercoop

mylissyk said:


> Where did you see any suggestion she would return the puppy if it didn't turn out to be show quality. I didn't see anything that said that.
> 
> Were there pictures? I'd love to see her.


I would message pics but phone app isn't allowing me to do so.


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## SheetsSM

I can empathize with you on what a difference it is to purchase vice rescue & how nerve wracking it can be. Just wondering if you rec'd pics taken during the litter evaluation. Did the breeder go over the various aspects of the pup's structure & what her perceived strengths/weaknesses were when she was evaluated at 8 weeks? From the pics you had posted, I can't imagine why someone wanting to show conformation would detract from the head by having the dog wear a flower. Without having a mentor, I do truly hope that the breeder from which this pup is coming from is in fact reputable that you're getting a pup from established lines that the breeder knows the pedigree inside & out and that there are generations of complete clearances. It's amazing the sales tactics some breeders use & prey upon the unsuspecting. Best of luck in your decision...hopefully you're getting some PM's from some of the breeders on this thread that can help you build confidence in your decision. Another source though is the Canine Breeder Evaluations page on facebook where you can share pics of your girl & receive feedback--though keep in mind, a picture only tells you so much.


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## SheetsSM

supercoop said:


> The puppies sire is nat. ch/inter ch ukc ch amoung others. Mother is on her way but not ch yet. Both the dams parents are championed same with the sire.


What country were the championships obtained & do you know the requirements to obtain such titles? I think the one thing I've learned from this forum is that not all conformation titles are equal.


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## Harleysmum

The trouble with an email style communication is that you do not have the advantage of face to face conversation where you can interrupt at various points to ask questions and clarify as you go. In an effort to keep things short and to the point posters often omit information and people get "the wrong end of the stick" and take offence and make assumptions that are not necessarily correct. Mostly on this forum you hear "I only want a pet" and they get bashed because they've used the word "only" which some people decide is derogatory. This time we have someone who wants a "show dog" and obviously having made that decision they want to make sure they get a good one. I think they need to be supported, encouraged and given advice but I am not an expert so what do I know!


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## mylissyk

I hope the puppy is exactly what you hoped. I know that even very experienced breeders that have put their hands on a puppy during evaluation, and planned for that puppy to be their next show prospect have found they didn't mature as they hoped and weren't the show prospect they expected them to be. 

Even if this puppy doesn't turn out to be a show prospect, you can still take all the handling classes, find a mentor, learn about the show world and train with this puppy so that if you decide to try again with another dog you have some experience and knowledge you didn't have at this point. I think either way, it's a win win for you and the puppy.

Good luck! And please do post pictures when you get her, we love puppies and oohing and awwwing over them


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## mylissyk

And I should also say, it's very possible that the breeder knows what they are looking at and she turns out to do very well showing for you. Likely actually if the breeder has shown and bred show quality puppies.


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## cubbysan

Can't wait to see pictures! I hope you can find a mentor. In the meantime, I have learned so much from this forum and their are some really good facebook forums too.


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## DanaRuns

For what it's worth, I am always filled with uncertainty and trepidation whenever I buy a puppy. I am considering a show puppy from this litter...

Pedigree: percy x tinder

...which I think this is a stunning pedigree. I particularly love the sire, he is incredibly impressive, to me. His littermate is the #1 Golden in America, and I think he's much nicer than his littermate. Also, the sire of the dam is Gibb's sire (Sonny). And the dam of the sire (Tickle) is incredible, too. I should be thrilled to get a puppy from this litter. And I am. BUT...

But what if the puppy I get doesn't turn out?
But what if that's too many dogs for me?
But what if the mix of Rush Hill and Summit influences doesn't blend well?
I like the COI, but does that mean there won't be consistency?
Are the sire and dam too different in style?
Is this the right time to get a puppy?
The top lines on both parents aren't as rock solid as I like, what if that turns into a disaster in my pup?
Will this dog fit in my breeding program in terms of style and philosophy?
I don't know how these two lines mix as far as dysplasia, etc., so what if there's a hidden problem?
Will that make too many females in my house, and what if they all come in season together?
Can I afford to have this many dogs?
Will getting this puppy have me missing out on an even better one?
How will this change my life?
How will getting this puppy affect my developing reputation in the show world?

At some point (soon, as the pups are due to be born in 5 days), I'm going to have to make a decision, and I'm going to have to live with that decision for 10-15 years, because once that puppy comes into my home she's there for the duration. It's natural to have lots of trepidation. If you don't, you're going to freak out when that puppy gets home and you suddenly realize what you're in for. 

As for those who think buying a puppy should be love at first sight, I've found that whatever puppy I take home I am madly in love with within two days. (Coincidentally, I usually want to microwave them two days after that, but they're so darn cute they've all managed to survive, so far.  ) I prefer to make smart decisions and then fall in love with the dog I choose, not fall in love with a puppy and hope it ends up being the right one.


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## Jersey's Mom

I'm confused.... what happened to the photos that were posted early on in the thread? I was hoping to look at them a little more closely before commenting - so I am going to have to go from memory after only a brief glance this morning. That's probably sufficient since I am in no position to comment on a puppy's structure as far as whether or not she would show promise for the show ring. 

If it were me looking for a show puppy, I have to admit there are some pretty big factors that would really give me pause. As far as the photos, the bow on the dog's head (as someone else mentioned) seems an inappropriate choice when sending out pictures for someone to examine on a potential show project. Beyond that, I would expect a breeder who is knowledgable about conformation to properly stack the dog and stand behind her so as not to be in the way. And I would expect to be shown photographs from when the puppy was 8 weeks (I think you had mentioned the younger photos were from 7 weeks old.) The consensus I have seen from people who know - I am not one of them, lol - is that 8 weeks is your best bet at seeing how the dog will be proportioned as an adult. 

Outside of the photos I see a major red flag -- if you live in the United States. K9design explained it much better than I could and has experience in the ring to back it up, so I pretty much defer to what she said on the topic. But the bottom line there is that if you live in the US, a dog sold as an "100% English Cream" from European lines (as you described her) is unlikely to be a serious contender in the AKC show ring. This was really my first thought when I read your post.

A couple other thoughts and questions:
The International Ch title isn't as impressive as it sounds once you learn about it and I have heard UKC is a great venue for learning but not really competitive. I am not sure what you meant by "nat ch," could you clarify? 

You mention that this puppy is being shipped to you. From where? I don't know of many reputable breeders who would ship a show prospect to a buyer with no history in the sport and who is not actively being mentored by someone they know and trust. A show prospect is very dear to a breeder who is focused on maintaining/improving this breed. They are going to want to know where the puppy is going and that she will have a chance to meet her full potential. When it comes to someone new to showing, the best bet is usually to find a local breeder who can mentor you him or herself. A lot of them will want to co-own the dog with you, though some may not. This is another factor that may vary in different countries, so bear in mind I am speaking about things from the perspective of living in the United States. 

You keep mentioning how much this puppy cost. Maybe that is because you are used to paying a smaller fee to a rescue group but I can't help but wonder how expensive this puppy really is. This forum has examined numerous breeders of "English Creams" who do no clearances on their dogs and who have minimal to no titles on their dogs (I consider an International Ch to be minimal) who charge nearly double what reputable breeders with sound conformation pedigrees do. I do not expect you to share the cost of this puppy on the forum (unless you wish to) but there are many threads on this forum that will give you a good idea of what breeders in your area usually charge. A show prospect can sometimes cost a little more, but it shouldn't be thousands more. 

If you live in the US, I think it would be in your best interest to pass on this puppy with your stated goals. I have this feeling deep in my gut that this breeder may be taking advantage of your limited knowledge about the show ring and your excitement about starting this new adventure with a show prospect. Perhaps you could choose one or two of the people who have responded to your post and PM them more info about the breeder or the puppy's pedigree so they can give you a really honest answer. Good luck with whatever you choose. 

Julie and the boys


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## Ljilly28

I have had an utter and complete attack of commitment anxiety about every pup I have ever brought home, and it had no bearing on either how much I ended up loving them or how nicely they turned out or didnt. If you love dogs like all of us here do, it is an awesome responsibility to bring home that little life to be on your watch.I think every puppy is a leap of faith- sometimes they dont turn out for what you intended but that's the heart dog who changes your life, or the problem dog who makes you a better trainer like Northeaster said. 

It is VERY hard to buy a show puppy and very hard to sell a show puppy- nerves on both sides. Mix that into a world in which most breeders keep show pups or place them with friends or proven homes out of both hope and fear for the pup, and it might be best to have the mentor first and then choose the puppy.


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## Eowyn

DanaRuns said:


> For what it's worth, I am always filled with uncertainty and trepidation whenever I buy a puppy. I am considering a show puppy from this litter...
> 
> Pedigree: percy x tinder
> 
> ...which I think this is a stunning pedigree. I particularly love the sire, he is incredibly impressive, to me. His littermate is the #1 Golden in America, and I think he's much nicer than his littermate. Also, the sire of the dam is Gibb's sire (Sonny). And the dam of the sire (Tickle) is incredible, too. I should be thrilled to get a puppy from this litter. And I am. BUT...


But you NEED this puppy Dana. I really think you should go for it! The parents are stunning... You really NEED this puppy...


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## DanaRuns

> As far as the photos, the bow on the dog's head (as someone else mentioned) seems an inappropriate choice when sending out pictures for someone to examine on a potential show project.


I found that quite odd, too. I told myself maybe that was her way of keeping straight which pup was which during photos. :shrug: But it does seem like something a breeder of show pups wouldn't do.


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## LJack

This is a US specific post.

I will add, if the National and International Championships were earned in the US, they are not really an indicator for a competitive show dog. I do them, as I love to show and so do my dogs. It is also fun to see the rare breeds who can't show in AKC. 
To give you an idea:

My girls both got thier International Championships in one day. Any dog without a Disqualifying fault (height or bite) can get a National(lower rating) or Intenational (higher rating) Championship. It is also non-competitive since it is based on a rating card, not beating any other dog. 

Both my girls got their UKC Championships in 3-4 shows. There are 2 shows per day so they earned them in 2 days.

Jinx took a little over 2 years to earn her AKC Championship (owner-handled)
Tilt is sitting at 4 of her needed 15 points for AKC and she has been shown less than Jinx was but she is coming up on two years old so has been showing for 1.5 years off and on.

So, the quality championships of the Int'l, UKC and AKC are substantially different. You need to decide were you want to show then determine if the puppy is likely to meet that level of competition.


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## DanaRuns

Eowyn said:


> But you NEED this puppy Dana. I really think you should go for it! The parents are stunning... You really NEED this puppy...


*GAH!!!*


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## Alaska7133

An English cream took winner bitch at US golden national last year. So it can be done in the US. April Fulk up here in Alaska breeds English cream and she has done well in the show ring. Her boy made the cut as a special at Westminster. April Fulk is the person responsible for the whole English cream thing so it's interesting that she's being rewarded now for her introduction of cream to the US. Her special took BOB here at both our shows in January. I expect to see her at our shows in March. Word is out that she's interested in getting into field work.


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## Jersey's Mom

Alaska7133 said:


> An English cream took winner bitch at US golden national last year. So it can be done in the US. April Fulk up here in Alaska breeds English cream and she has done well in the show ring. Her boy made the cut as a special at Westminster. April Fulk is the person responsible for the whole English cream thing so it's interesting that she's being rewarded now for her introduction of cream to the US. Her special took BOB here at both our shows in January. I expect to see her at our shows in March. Word is out that she's interested in getting into field work.



I looked up the girl that took WB (and Best of Winners, wow!) at the National. She is very pretty. I did notice, though that she is a Canadian KC champion and that the National was her first showing in AKC. Part of me wonders if the type of judge you will see at a national might be more likely to appreciate really good structure and be less swayed by their personal preferences for color or style than your average all-breed judge. I would hope that she is ultimately capable of achieving her AKC championship, but I think it remains to be seen what kind of attention she does or does not get in the average show ring. I don't know anything about April Fulk. Was she the first person to focus on English or European lines in the US? 

Look, I don't think anyone here is saying that English or European dogs can't be very nice, well structured dogs who deserve success in the show ring. But when the American standard faults a dog for being too light of coat (how heavily faulted being dependent on the judge's opinion) they are starting out on an uphill battle and will need to be exceptionally better than the rest of the dogs in the ring in most other ways in order to be considered the best of the day. When there is such an abundance of less than reputable people trying to cash in on English Creams as some sort of rare commodity, I just find it a little suspicious if one is being sold in the US as a serious show prospect under these particular circumstances (dog being shipped to someone so new to the sport, sight unseen. No evidence given thus far about either of the parent dogs having earned AKC Ch. Etc). It may all be above board, it may all be happening in another country for all any of us knows at this point, but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to give the OP a few things to consider before making this very large commitment. It is not meant to insult those who are reputable breeders of English or European style goldens. 

Julie and the boys


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## cubbysan

LJack said:


> This is a US specific post.
> 
> I will add, if the National and International Championships were earned in the US, they are not really an indicator for a competitive show dog. I do them, as I love to show and so do my dogs. It is also fun to see the rare breeds who can't show in AKC.
> To give you an idea:
> 
> My girls both got thier International Championships in one day. Any dog without a Disqualifying fault (height or bite) can get a National(lower rating) or Intenational (higher rating) Championship. It is also non-competitive since it is based on a rating card, not beating any other dog.
> 
> Both my girls got their UKC Championships in 3-4 shows. There are 2 shows per day so they earned them in 2 days.
> 
> Jinx took a little over 2 years to earn her AKC Championship (owner-handled)
> Tilt is sitting at 4 of her needed 15 points for AKC and she has been shown less than Jinx was but she is coming up on two years old so has been showing for 1.5 years off and on.
> 
> So, the quality championships of the Int'l, UKC and AKC are substantially different. You need to decide were you want to show then determine if the puppy is likely to meet that level of competition.


This is exactly how this was explained to me in conformation class. Actually told great place for a beginner to get experience for the AKC shows.


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## K9-Design

OK the English Cream and "National / International Champion" thing makes more sense. 

IACAB ("international shows") and UKC (United Kennel Club) are GREAT learning grounds for people getting their feet wet in the show ring. Relaxed, friendly atmosphere, much less crowded than AKC, sometimes more than one show in a day, and you can get a title in one weekend. But let's not fool ourselves. The titles mean basically nothing as far as the quality of the dog. They are pop warner compared to the NFL (AKC). I would place a UKC championship much higher than an IACAB championship, since it is competitive. The international championships are fun, but that and $0.50 will get you a very small cup of coffee. Now if the little shows like this are your idea of fun, then so long as parents have their clearances, go for it. But you won't get anywhere in AKC with a breeding like this.


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## DJdogman

I apologise, I assumed from your post that you had already bought this puppy and it was in your possession. Considering the posts since, it seems like you are doing the right thing by looking into this more carefully. Best of luck with your decision, I hope its the right one for you.


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## tippykayak

When Comet went through his (first) awkward phase, he would throw a hiccup in his trotting gait. Like, he'd gait normally for a few steps, then leave one paw out of the pattern, then go back to normal. At puppy class, we finally isolated it to his front left (I think it was left, at least) leg. He would just keep it up once every 3-5 steps.

I cried all the way home. I had this dream of a second running and hiking companion to add to the family, and maybe dabbling in agility with him. I had located a litter with all the right elements to turn out a healthy athlete with a great temperament. I had visited twice and identified the puppy with the aspects I liked and begged the breeder for that one (and got him). And now I was heartbroken that this dog was going to have ED or something, and all those dreams and plans were gone.

Fast forward 7 years, and I've put at least 2,000 trail miles on Comet. Last Thursday, my agility instructor critiqued my handling by saying, "do you really think you can take an outside line on a dog that fast?" Comet is crashed out upside down on the couch right next to me right now with his back feet about three inches from my shoulder.

Now, if it had turned out differently and it had been ED or something that kept him from doing all the things I planned, would I have given him back? Never.
Would I have loved him less? Not one whit.
Would I have had less of emotional bond with him because of that disappointment? Of course not.
Would I do my best to pick a puppy from a litter who wasn't going to have joint problems? Of course.
Would I regret picking Comet once he was mine, even if he turned out to have a bum elbow? Never.

I say all this for two reasons. One, to the OP: if you've done all your homework and really connected with a litter and a puppy who have the deck stacked in favor of the qualities you are looking for, there's a very good chance your puppy will grow up to have those qualities, even if you get a few scares during growth spurts. Two, to the people who are calling the OP cold-hearted or whatever: it's fair to be disappointed or anxious when you have plans and dreams and it seems like they won't work out. And if you haven't bought the puppy yet, it's fair not to buy the puppy if it seems like he or she won't have the qualities you are looking for. The whole point of purebred dogs is that you can try to get specific qualities that you want for your lifestyle and goals.


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## ktkins7

tippykayak said:


> When Comet went through his (first) awkward phase, he would throw a hiccup in his trotting gait. Like, he'd gait normally for a few steps, then leave one paw out of the pattern, then go back to normal. At puppy class, we finally isolated it to his front left (I think it was left, at least) leg. He would just keep it up once every 3-5 steps.
> 
> I cried all the way home. I had this dream of a second running and hiking companion to add to the family, and maybe dabbling in agility with him. I had located a litter with all the right elements to turn out a healthy athlete with a great temperament. I had visited twice and identified the puppy with the aspects I liked and begged the breeder for that one (and got him). And now I was heartbroken that this dog was going to have ED or something, and all those dreams and plans were gone.
> 
> Fast forward 7 years, and I've put at least 2,000 trail miles on Comet. Last Thursday, my agility instructor critiqued my handling by saying, "do you really think you can take an outside line on a dog that fast?" Comet is crashed out upside down on the couch right next to me right now with his back feet about three inches from my shoulder.
> 
> Now, if it had turned out differently and it had been ED or something that kept him from doing all the things I planned, would I have given him back? Never.
> Would I have loved him less? Not one whit.
> Would I have had less of emotional bond with him because of that disappointment? Of course not.
> Would I do my best to pick a puppy from a litter who wasn't going to have joint problems? Of course.
> Would I regret picking Comet once he was mine, even if he turned out to have a bum elbow? Never.
> 
> I say all this for two reasons. One, to the OP: if you've done all your homework and really connected with a litter and a puppy who have the deck stacked in favor of the qualities you are looking for, there's a very good chance your puppy will grow up to have those qualities, even if you get a few scares during growth spurts. Two, to the people who are calling the OP cold-hearted or whatever: it's fair to be disappointed or anxious when you have plans and dreams and it seems like they won't work out. And if you haven't bought the puppy yet, it's fair not to buy the puppy if it seems like he or she won't have the qualities you are looking for. The whole point of purebred dogs is that you can try to get specific qualities that you want for your lifestyle and goals.


I think this is perfectly said and agree with this 100%. Don't have anything more to add.


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