# Training vs. Testing



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Unfortunately, human nature causes many trainers to test with little regard to a dog's readiness, especially when training with a group. We're competitive by nature, and want to show off with our dogs a bit.

That's why we fear and even hide from failure while training, especially in the presence of others. Over more than 36 years of training I've come to embrace failure while training because it offers the best opportunities to reveal where a given dog is weak, and to adapt what I'm doing to help him train through the problem. If you burned a training day and all the resources needed to put one on, and you didn't reveal and/or correct some deficit, what good was the training day? Didn't you come to improve your dog? How can you do that if your set ups are geared only to do what he could already do?

I realize some will read the above and assume that I'm one of those trainers who feels if they don't pound a dog during training that they didn't do any training. That isn't at all true. Often the corrections I make in the field during training consist of simply breaking a difficult concept down and simplifying it for the dog so that he learns something from the experience, rather than merely getting exercised.

EvanG


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

When we set up marks we try to set up for the most advanced dog. The less experienced can move their line to open up tight marks, run singles or move up closer if the set up lends itself to that. I recognize that it is not always an option with water to move up. 
We usually put out two blinds in each series, one for the more advanced dogs and one for the less experienced. 

There is always something that each person can find to work on. Maybe it will just be line manners that day, or clean delivery to hand. Maybe it is being steady for a triple. 

I do believe that with each training set up you need to look at what will give your dog the most benefit. If I look at a multiple set up I tend to look at each mark individually and what I need from each mark. If it is a potentially cheaty line that mark will be a single, a go bird, or a delay bird where it becomes essentially a single mark. With a long bird past a short gun across water, I may have a second silent throw as the dog exits the water to drive her past the gun sitting on the bank. 

It is the handlers job to make sure every set up is a learning experience for the dog and not just go out and run the marks the way every one else does.

FYI, are you coming to Pinelands this Sunday? If so I will see you there.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Trail Dogs

I need to contact the club today. I want to come to the session.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Evan 

The competitiveness is where many go wrong. I am at the training session to help my dog learn, not to compete with others. I look forward to finding my dog's weaknesses so that I can work on them.

Some setups cannot be simplified and that is where I get aggravated.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

gdgli said:


> Evan
> 
> ...Some setups cannot be simplified and that is where I get aggravated.


That's a red flag for me. Why can they not be simplified?

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

EvanG said:


> That's a red flag for me. Why can they not be simplified?
> 
> EvanG


Let's say very difficult to modify. A 165 yd. hot blind in the field with multiple dummies. This setup uses dummies for all blinds while we have birds for the marks. I would have to walk out to remove them so I can run the marks as this is beyond my dog's skills. I would then have to replace them for the other dogs. Or I could ask someone else to do this. This looks to me like it is difficult to modify.

Add to this that the blind was marked with white PVC pipe that was at least 4" in diameter.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Sounds like you would do best to find a different training group. Even training with people whose dogs and training are beneath yours can produce better training because more basic set ups can easily be modified to work at your dog's level. If your current group insists on hot blinds, especially in close proximity to marks, they're not training fairly, and I would not agree to run their set ups. The only way I would agree to it is to run last so I could pick up the bumpers at the blinds and then run, or to plant different blinds for my dogs.

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I agree training isn't testing (with the exception of sometimes wanting to "see where you're at" I have tried something without a collar for example), But I do see some people who seem to think that's how to train, and disagree to ever do singles or break things down. Most of them seem amenable to individuals tailoring for themselves, although they may voice disagreement or disapproval.

I've gotten more comfortable over time and experience to say I want to do singles or I'm moving up. Sometimes some of the more experienced people will tell me I should do this or that (e.g. try the triple, keep overly distracting factors in the set up). I think they're trying to help, but it often ends in disaster with me kicking myself for listening to them and not "sticking to my guns" LOL. They may have more experience but I know my dogs. At least with training you can correct or try to do some damage control.

I think Evan has a good point, if they insist on doing hot blinds, anyone who doesn't want it hot should be able to go first or last with other stuff picked up. Being in a group can be hard with the dynamics and all, I would think most reasonable members would agree to you tailoring the set up for yours and your dog's needs. Most people expect each other to respect each others' training methods.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Don't be afraid to ask. Trust me I'd much rather take time to modify a setup or have a dog run a memory bird as a single then come back later to do the multiple, than suffer through watching a dog and handler blunder through a setup that is over their head, which is no fun for anyone.
I rarely go to club training days because either what they set up is so easy it is of little value, or they set up something that is so convoluted in an effort to make it "tough" that it makes no sense to run. I prefer my own training group -- we're on the same page!!!

FYI I would NEVER EVER EVER train without a collar to "see where we're at." You will know where you're at if you train with a collar and have to use it. Training without a collar to see where we're at is best translated as "teaching my dog to be collar-wise."


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> I rarely go to club training days because either what they set up is so easy it is of little value, or they set up something that is so convoluted in an effort to make it "tough" that it makes no sense to run. I prefer my own training group -- we're on the same page!!!


I also rarely do club training days for some of the same reasons. This Sunday will be my first one in a year, and I don't go for the marking setups. I go for the test atmosphere. It gives me some good training on manners with an elevated excitement level.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I have no problem making things easier. I am not here to compete with anybody else. That's silly. I am usually a competitive person in other non-dog aspects of my life, but my dog's success is the most important thing to me. I'm not too shy to ask people to go out to the gun stations to help out if I think my dog might need it. I have never heard someone tell me I should've made something easier for Molly but I hear all the time that I should have more faith in her. So, maybe I'm at the other end of the spectrum of not challenging her enough.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

TrailDogs said:


> I also rarely do club training days for some of the same reasons. This Sunday will be my first one in a year, and I don't go for the marking setups. I go for the test atmosphere. It gives me some good training on manners with an elevated excitement level.


You can get excellent training in such groups by going but not running. You will have exposed your dog to the environmental triggers of test day without any negative exposure due to a poor set up or undue pressure to run when or in some way that could be detrimental to your dog. Also, you will have changed some of your dog's expectations about always having his/her preconceived notions fulfilled when those triggers are presented. 

EvanG


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