# Show Quality—Yea or Nay?



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

She is certainly ring trained! you've done a fine job with that piece, and honestly I think it might depend on where you are, how big the show is, who the judge is, what that coat feels like to the hand. YOU want to handle her? If you were going to put her w a 'face' I'd say she's ready. Some of what we face w Goldens is we have unfortunately become a handler breed and it is very difficult for owners, as they learn. Not impossible, but difficult. So- where ever you are- get on infodog, make a list of all the shows upcoming, and who is judging Retrievers, Golden (it's under R not G) and then go to AKC for that judge, open the k9data window, and make a list for the last few shows of what they did- see if it was an owner handler, see if the dog looks even remotely like yours or not, etc.


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

I very much want to handle her myself. I’m in GA—so Southeastern US, which seems VERY competitive to me. 

Compared to other Goldens from the same kennel, I would say her coat is a little soft... I picked solely on personality, which she has a lot of. SHE thinks she’s God’s gift to Goldens! LOL

I appreciate the great advice on researching on infodog.

As far as other dogs in my area and what they look like, I feel like they’re heavier bodied with heavier, darker coats...

THANK YOU!
McCall




Prism Goldens said:


> She is certainly ring trained! you've done a fine job with that piece, and honestly I think it might depend on where you are, how big the show is, who the judge is, what that coat feels like to the hand. YOU want to handle her? If you were going to put her w a 'face' I'd say she's ready. Some of what we face w Goldens is we have unfortunately become a handler breed and it is very difficult for owners, as they learn. Not impossible, but difficult. So- where ever you are- get on infodog, make a list of all the shows upcoming, and who is judging Retrievers, Golden (it's under R not G) and then go to AKC for that judge, open the k9data window, and make a list for the last few shows of what they did- see if it was an owner handler, see if the dog looks even remotely like yours or not, etc.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Whether entered or not, AGRC specialty is upcoming in August, and you have newnan upcoming-Greenville end July, take her to one of those and watch ringside then approach a handler you liked watching and ask them if she is competitive. There's a lot one can't tell from a video but hands on would be more telling.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

McCall said:


> I’ve given her time, and she’s still light on bone and hair...


I do not think she's light on hair. And "bone" isn't obviously less than you want.

The freeze picture above - she's got a roll over her topline, her ears are back, and she's lagging in that shot. <- obviously, that's one moment from the video.

Watching the video - I like her front (head, shoulder, etc down to the ground). Midback going back and down to the ground with her rear legs - I can't tell what I'm seeing there. Might not have the rear angle many dogs have. 

It could also be how she's stacked in the rear too. 

The below pic, front feet could be a step back under her, but I think she has a nice front and her bib helps but I don't think it's just fur. 

With her rear - I think she looks a little high - and I'm not sure what else I'm seeing. Angle might be helped with how you groom hocks and butt feathers, etc...










I watched the video and I agree with Robin that's she's very well trained - and you are doing a very good job with her. I think you should consider handling her yourself. But with people helping you.

Gotta share - I competed in a show this weekend. And it's one of those shows that I've never really had much luck at, but I still enter because I love showing there and I love meeting everyone that comes. It tends to draw a LOT of breeder owner handlers - meaning that even the pro handlers who are there, they are golden people who are breeder/owners themselves. It's worth experiencing that as a handler and watching and learning with your feet in the ring. There were very few all breed handlers competing in the ring this weekend. 9 out of 10 were all golden people.

My dogs did not win - however I could see where they were while I competed with them. It was worth going out there even though I did not overcommit because I have not had much luck at this show in prior years. I did just 1 day and limited entries to 2 with my baby and only 1 with my older boy. Mainly this was a take the dogs out and give them more ring experience type of thing while giving really good people in this breed a chance to see him and give me some feedback. 

First show - the judge was all over the place. People kinda said she didn't know what she was doing. I think that's probably mostly unfair since the WD and WB were both very nice dogs. Everything that won classes? Yeah, that was all over the place.

Second show - the judge picked boys super fast. And it's debatable about what exactly she was looking for in boys. I couldn't figure it out and I was guessing 2-3 different things. Girlies, she was painfully slow in picking. People trying to be super fair to her said she had a very high level of competition in front of her and was giving each and every dog extra scrutiny. I have no idea. LOL.

But both shows - I saw big breeder/handlers come out of the ring with a "shrug" indicating they didn't agree with the judge's picks. Meaning - everyone has the experience of leaving the ring empty handed. You still enter and give it a go. You are either seriously competing and fully expecting to win (with good reason) every time you go out there... or you are go out there with a green dog and give him a chance to gain more positive experience + give you and others a chance to see what he is capable of from seeing him "for real". Dogs don't all show well - even if they are good in training.

That's my take on why I think you should enter her in a few shows and see where she's at + give people a chance to help you before you show and learn while you show from people who aren't trying to be nice and cheer you up.

Waiting too long to show her while waiting for her to be "perfect" - you risk waiting for a dog who is finally well mature and all that, who doesn't show well.

And you never know - this might not be your dog that will win everything for you. But she's one you could learn on.


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

Megora said:


> With her rear - I think she looks a little high - and I'm not sure what else I'm seeing. Angle might be helped with how you groom hocks and butt feathers, etc...


Kate, thank you for the _very_ thoughtful feedback, especially the little tidbits like moving Apple's front legs back a smidge when I stack her. 

Again, thanks for taking the time to provide feedback, and I love hearing about your experiences in the ring and how you use your time in the ring to learn and grow. 

If you think of any other helpful tidbits, I'm all ears. 

I have a feeling Apple might end up being a learning dog, but whatever happens, she is my absolute best friend. Whatever she lacks structurally or conformation-wise, she more than makes up for with personality. 

Best,
McCall


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> Whether entered or not, AGRC specialty is upcoming in August, and you have newnan upcoming-Greenville end July, take her to one of those and watch ringside then approach a handler you liked watching and ask them if she is competitive. There's a lot one can't tell from a video but hands on would be more telling.


I will definitely go to AGRC and Greenville. 

Thanks again for the thoughtful advice and responses. This forum is great!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You can pm me the handler's name if you get a go-over. I'll tell you if they are the type to just say 'nice' .... OTOH, if someone says 'she's cute' that has a good meaning... Just say to them, "do you have a minute to go over her and tell me if you think she could be competitive? I want to show her" The grooming is a key part of Goldens, maybe especially in that area of the country. Greenville is a huge show, and the AGRC specialty has a CCA event- dk if it is full- go to events on GRCA.org and email the secretary (elizabeth cariota- just don't want to put her email here) if Apple will be 18 mo+ on that day, enter it. It's good practice and you will get 3 judges 15 min opinions on her- and maybe a title. Probably a title I would say. check your pms.


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

Megora said:


> I do not think she's light on hair. And "bone" isn't obviously less than you want.
> 
> The freeze picture above - she's got a roll over her topline, her ears are back, and she's lagging in that shot. <- obviously, that's one moment from the video.
> 
> ...


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

You are doing an excellent job with Apple. She is very cute! 

Even though the Greenville shows have large entries, I would suggest doing them. There usually are quite a few owner handlers including forum member Anney Doucette (K-9 Design). If you can't do all four days, do the Sandlapper GRC Specialties (7/29 and 7/31). The Thursday judge is breeder judge Collette Jaynes. I haven't showed to her, but know her well. She is very nice and will be patient and kind to a new owner handler. Definitely show Saturday under breeder judge Nancy Talbott. I have shown to Nancy. She also is very nice and doesn't care who is handling. She looks at structure and not so much coat and grooming.

I don't mean to steal your post, but want to encourage you. Years ago under Nancy Talbott, I won a 4 pt major, over pro handlers, with my bitch who was moderate, not heavily boned and completely out of coat. My bitch had just come out of season and didn't even have tail feathers! 









Hope to see you in Greenville!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I think you could show her for sure! She really is very well trained. She moves her back feet after you place them because she feels overextended. She really does appear to have a nice front assembly, which should be your focus when handling her. You need to get her up over her front a little more and then her top line won’t look as high in the rear. Feel of her spine and see if there is a dip behind her shoulders. I’ll bet there is (it’s not a fault in and of itself, it’s the natural curvature of the spine) and if so you can fluff the hair in that spot by adding mousse and back blowing it, then comb it down gently just so it lays flat, but don’t comb it down so it lays on the skin. I hope that makes sense!

She has plenty of bone and coat and will look different/better when she’s in a full show groom. I think you need to grow some more hair on her hocks - weekly baths plus a high quality conditioner on all of her feathering will help grow hair in all the right places. Don’t condition the top coat, just feathering.

You didn’t exactly ask for all of this advice, but here it is anyway! 😅 one more handling tip: when you set her up, make sure you place the feet on the judge’s side first - especially if you’re in a hurry.

In conclusion, you look like a great team and I think you should give it a go yourself! But definitely do what the others are saying. PM Robin (or me) about which handlers to talk to. Most are nice, but some aren’t very outgoing and won’t go out of their way to help a new person, but there are a few that will.


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

THANK YOU! This is so helpful. I've heard of the CCA events but had completely forgotten about them. There is nothing that I can find listed on AGRC or GRCA about the CCA event in Atlanta. But I've recently connected with Elizabeth on FB, so I can ask her about that.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

closing is 2.5 weeks prior to the weekend of the show, on a Wednesday. 
Opening depends on when AKC approves it. 

I looked you are correct- that's what happens when an old pro leaves a program and a new person comes on, things get left off. I want to say AGRC's event is Aug 8 but I may be wrong. Elizabeth is secretary so she's the one you want. The entry form is on GRCA.org under the conformation/CCA tab. She'll have to give you her address to mail to- I truly think this is a fabulous opp for you. And I already told Jan to expect a call from you on grooming.


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

kjengold said:


> You are doing an excellent job with Apple. She is very cute!
> 
> Even though the Greenville shows have large entries, I would suggest doing them. There usually are quite a few owner handlers including forum member Anney Doucette (K-9 Design). If you can't do all four days, do the Sandlapper GRC Specialties (7/29 and 7/31). The Thursday judge is breeder judge Collette Jaynes. I haven't showed to her, but know her well. She is very nice and will be patient and kind to a new owner handler. Definitely show Saturday under breeder judge Nancy Talbott. I have shown to Nancy. She also is very nice and doesn't care who is handling. She looks at structure and not so much coat and grooming.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! Your post is so encouraging, especially the part about your owner-handled, moderate bitch winning a 4 pt major. 

The info on judges is great too. I've actually met a lot of people over the last year or two at shows, handling classes, etc. I don't know many people very well, but it's nice to start putting names with faces. 

Just like here on the forum, I've found that people at shows are more encouraging and helpful than I ever would have expected. 

I hope our paths will cross in Greenville, Lawrenceville, or Atlanta!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

CCA Entrants - Golden Retriever Club of America







grca.org


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

kjengold said:


> Definitely show Saturday under breeder judge Nancy Talbott. I have shown to Nancy. She also is very nice and doesn't care who is handling. She looks at structure and not so much coat and grooming.


I wish clubs up here would hire Nancy again! >.< 

Showed to her once and nearly won a big major under her - except my dog flagged his tail on the last go around and she dropped me down 2 places - which killed me because I was out front and smelling that purple ribbon. LOL.


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

ArkansasGold said:


> I think you could show her for sure! She really is very well trained. She moves her back feet after you place them because she feels overextended. She really does appear to have a nice front assembly, which should be your focus when handling her. You need to get her up over her front a little more and then her top line won’t look as high in the rear. Feel of her spine and see if there is a dip behind her shoulders. I’ll bet there is (it’s not a fault in and of itself, it’s the natural curvature of the spine) and if so you can fluff the hair in that spot by adding mousse and back blowing it, then comb it down gently just so it lays flat, but don’t comb it down so it lays on the skin. I hope that makes sense!
> 
> She has plenty of bone and coat and will look different/better when she’s in a full show groom. I think you need to grow some more hair on her hocks - weekly baths plus a high quality conditioner on all of her feathering will help grow hair in all the right places. Don’t condition the top coat, just feathering.
> 
> ...



Thank you, Maegan! I crave advice on all things grooming, handling, etc. I'm multi-tasking today but plan to read back through these responses and take notes this evening. Do you have a good conditioner that you recommend? Do you dilute it with water and spray it on or just work it in full strength with your hands? I haven't been doing any conditioning... 

McCall


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

Ohh...I love how nicely ring trained she is. Having a wild man myself, I don't take that for granted! Awesome! Big kuddos to you for owner handling her, as that is simply not easy to just do! So a small thing - I spend a ton of time when I've groomed on making sure the fur on the topline lays flat. If you are working with a nice topline, straightening that hair with the dryer and flattening it until it is COMPLETELY dry really makes a difference. When I haven't done this...the fur waves and cowlicks...maybe nice texture, but the rock solid topline is lost. When a handler groomed my dog, they have done something similar.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi! I will be at Atlanta GRC and probably Greenville, I'd love to meet you! Do you have a k9data link for Apple?
I would also recommend showing to Nancy in Greenville. She gave me my first major ever. She likes nice headpieces and it looks like Apple has a lovely headpiece 
I feel she is a bit out of condition and could benefit from biking. Wait until she is 24 months, do clearances, then start biking.
Is she worthy of being shown? YES. Is she going to take the rings by storm? Probably not. Definitely worth trying.
Also, 22 months is very young. My dog Bally finished right at 24 months, quite easily, and won a specialty at 3 years old. You know when he looked the best? Right now. He's 8.

Here's my first major win, Nancy Talbot judging, with my first good dog FISHER back in the DAY! 2007!!


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

ArkansasGold said:


> I think you could show her for sure! She really is very well trained. She moves her back feet after you place them because she feels overextended. She really does appear to have a nice front assembly, which should be your focus when handling her. You need to get her up over her front a little more and then her top line won’t look as high in the rear. Feel of her spine and see if there is a dip behind her shoulders. I’ll bet there is (it’s not a fault in and of itself, it’s the natural curvature of the spine) and if so you can fluff the hair in that spot by adding mousse and back blowing it, then comb it down gently just so it lays flat, but don’t comb it down so it lays on the skin. I hope that makes sense!
> 
> She has plenty of bone and coat and will look different/better when she’s in a full show groom. I think you need to grow some more hair on her hocks - weekly baths plus a high quality conditioner on all of her feathering will help grow hair in all the right places. Don’t condition the top coat, just feathering.
> 
> ...


Thanks again, Maegan. I just made notes on all your suggestions, so I can have them in front of me as I groom. 

I also PM'd you a couple of follow up questions. 

Best,
McCall


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> closing is 2.5 weeks prior to the weekend of the show, on a Wednesday.
> Opening depends on when AKC approves it.
> 
> I looked you are correct- that's what happens when an old pro leaves a program and a new person comes on, things get left off. I want to say AGRC's event is Aug 8 but I may be wrong. Elizabeth is secretary so she's the one you want. The entry form is on GRCA.org under the conformation/CCA tab. She'll have to give you her address to mail to- I truly think this is a fabulous opp for you. And I already told Jan to expect a call from you on grooming.


Thanks again, Robin! I just communicated with Elizabeth. She told me how wonderful you are. 

Jan is a couple hours away from me, but I plan to reach out to her tonight or tomorrow and see if we can connect soon. 

I hope the universe pays you back tenfold for being so kind to newbies. 

Best,
McCall


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)




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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

Rion05 said:


> Ohh...I love how nicely ring trained she is. Having a wild man myself, I don't take that for granted! Awesome! Big kuddos to you for owner handling her, as that is simply not easy to just do! So a small thing - I spend a ton of time when I've groomed on making sure the fur on the topline lays flat. If you are working with a nice topline, straightening that hair with the dryer and flattening it until it is COMPLETELY dry really makes a difference. When I haven't done this...the fur waves and cowlicks...maybe nice texture, but the rock solid topline is lost. When a handler groomed my dog, they have done something similar.


Thanks, Rion05! I will definitely make sure that I'm getting her _completely_ dry going forward. 

McCall


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

Thanks a million, Anney! I would _absolutely_ love to meet in person at AGRC and/or Greenville. I teach middle school, and those two shows fall right when teachers report back to school here, so my plans are to attend both shows on Saturday/Sunday only. 

I have been trying to exercise her more--retrieving, etc. I hope to get some swimming in too, and we start our first agility classes this month. The thought of biking strikes mild fear in every fiber of my body as I am not the most coordinated human on the planet, but I'm willing to try most anything if it will help. 

Thanks for responding to the post. 

Looking forward to connecting soon,
McCall


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

McCall said:


> The thought of biking strikes mild fear in every fiber of my body as I am not the most coordinated human on the planet, but I'm willing to try most anything if it will help.


If jogging is easier - you could probably start a light daily jog with her right now. That would probably be safer and more productive than just retrieves. Start off easy. Maybe find soft ground to jog on (probably better for your knees too if they are like mine!). Make sure she's trotting of course, and change speeds, etc. 

If she's naturally active and enjoys running on her own without urging - then off leash hikes or find meadows or fields where she can open up and run.... helps big time.

Also swimming in addition to everything else.


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## McCall (Feb 16, 2020)

Megora said:


> If jogging is easier - you could probably start a light daily jog with her right now. That would probably be safer and more productive than just retrieves. Start off easy. Maybe find soft ground to jog on (probably better for your knees too if they are like mine!).
> 
> If she's naturally active and enjoys running on her own without urging - then off leash hikes or find meadows or fields where she can open up and run.... helps big time.
> 
> Also swimming in addition to everything else.


Thanks, Kate! Great minds think alike. Apple and I were just outside playing, and I was contemplating jogging instead of biking as I used to actually run a good bit--back in the day. We have four acres--about an acre of which is fenced--and Apple does enjoy running without urging. So that's helpful.

Fingers crossed Apple and I get better conditioned together. 

McCall


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