# Prong collar and feeling guilty



## RSHANNING (Nov 14, 2008)

I would guess once the training process is done you should be able use a regular collar.


----------



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

You don't have to worry about being "alpha" either way:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

But do consider the falllout of punishment:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's not a failure of alpha-ness. If you read the AVSA statement that RedDogs posted, you'll see a very thoughtful argument that puts a lot of holes in that way of thinking about human relationships with the dogs. Your dog doesn't pull because of a lack of respect. It's just that he doesn't yet understand what's expected of him, and he hasn't built a habit of polite walking.

I'm not a fan of using prongs to teach basic manners. What methods have you been using to teach him to pay attention to you and offer a loose leash?


----------



## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I use prong collars on both Austin and Lincoln periodically.....I switch back and forth between those and their haltis. I've tried just using their nylon collars but they (or should say "we") just have not perfected a loose leash walk yet. They will walk fine for a while but if they happen to see a rabbit.....I'm in trouble. I have sore shoulders, back, hands, have broken nails, from just trying to hold them back when they catch sight of a bunny. Bunnies are a real struggle for us, especially with Austin....even with the prong collars on. My preference is not to use them but until such time as we deal with the bunny situation....they're the only thing saving me!!

My goal is to have them walk using only their nylon collars so we've been working really hard and diligently on their loose leash walking.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

jakesmom2200 said:


> When I put the collar on him, the look on his face is so different - he really looks sad.


Do you have the collar on too tight? People used to fit a prong collar really tight, but now the general consensus is a looser fitting collar. So he shouldn't be feeling anything unless he is pulling, otherwise it would feel just like an ordinary collar, maybe just a little heavier.

I think prong collars are great as long as people aren't abusive with them (ie jerking the dog around with one on) or subsituting using one for teaching a dog not to pull.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I wouldn't feel guilty if you are using the prong collar properly (you do not jerk on the leash with a prong collar-it's not necessary) and it was properly fitted. I think you are letting your feelings of guilt color your perceptions . It's not my first choice of collars but I do think that it is sometimes helpful. Now that you have the collar, reward his good behavior and hopefully you will be able to transition to a different collar or harness.


----------



## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Another option may be the "gentle leader" collar. I haven't used it but some people really like it.


----------



## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

I had horrible problems with Parker, he is extremely strong and on our walks he was getting more and more uncontrollable. I had bought a prong but it bothered me too so I only used it one time. In my mind I thought he was a dog that would absolutely never loose leash walk, zigging/zagging, trying to run after ever blowing leaf, it was miserable. I was ready to just give up. He did do better on the easy walk front hook harness but I was determined he was going to learn to walk on a loose leash with a flat collar. I found a site that suggested the following, and it has made all the difference in the world.

I think I was rushing his healing amongst distractions. This is what was suggested....

Start in a very small room in your house with a flat collar, leash, clicker and treats. No distractions. Let them walk wherever they want and pay no attention to them. Every time he turns and looks at you immediately click and treat. Then go back to ignoring him and again when he turns and looks, click and treat. Once you have his attention in that setting move to a larger room. I did this in my office, then the livingroom, moved on to the garage, then his pen and then spent a few days doing it in our yard. I just walked around the yard with him on his leash and every time his attention turned to me I clicked and treated. He quickly learned that looking at me while on the leash was a very good thing. We practiced practiced practiced. It's like something clicked in his brain. I have gotten to where I can walk in the neighborhood with a flat collar, I no longer need the clicker, but I do carry treats. He is not perfect yet but I have all the confidence in the world that I can manage him.

He goes to classes and passes other dogs with no problems at all. I have to be on guard for the occasional burst that he feels compelled to try but basically he is a different dog that was an absolute danger to walk a month ago.


----------



## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Tahnee GR said:


> I wouldn't feel guilty if you are using the prong collar properly (you do not jerk on the leash with a prong collar-it's not necessary) and it was properly fitted. I think you are letting your feelings of guilt color your perceptions . It's not my first choice of collars but I do think that it is sometimes helpful. Now that you have the collar, reward his good behavior and hopefully you will be able to transition to a different collar or harness.


I agree with Tahnee.

Our first golden, Jake, was a spoiled King. My husband and I made every training mistake in the book. I really wasn't able to walk him without a prong until he turned 10--by then, I had taken private lessons, to get a CD title on him (and there were quite a few people who knew him who thought it couldn't be done). During those private lessons, a lot clicked in his brain, and mine. But my husband was never able to walk him without the prong--he still continued to pull my husband. 

I think you need to use what works for you, and stop feeling guilty about it. Keep going to obedience classes--and even try new classes with new instructors. It wasn't until I went to private lessons that the lightbulb went off for me.


----------



## jealous1 (Dec 7, 2007)

_I think you need to use what works for you, and stop feeling guilty about it. Keep going to obedience classes--and even try new classes with new instructors. It wasn't until I went to private lessons that the lightbulb went off for me. _
____________________

I totally agree with this. As one who was on the receiving end of Bear while fostering him for a couple of weeks, I know how brutal he can be when he saw another dog. He's young, strong, and VERY stubborn--but adorable. I understand totally how he can make you feel guilty with those eyes but as long as fitted correctly and used properly, you're not hurting him with the prong collar; he's really just upset he's not getting his way (I've seen my younger nephews do this, too--really works w/ grandma! LOL).


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I upped Ranger to a prong collar last year after 2 months of teaching him to walk nicely. He'd walk on a loose leash until something distracted him - leaf, rabbit, squirrel, someone 5 blocks away, etc and the pull or lunge. I had to wear gloves to walk him. Put a prong on him and he's way better. One little correction and he's back to walking nicely at my side, which he KNOWS how to do but needs to reminded here and there. He's now walking so well that on calm days for walks around the block, I can slip a martingale on he'll walk beautifully. For days where we're going to be out and about in a place full of distractions...it's his prong collar. I'd rather give him one correction, instead of twenty that he ignores. Personal preference.

To add: Bear sounds like a lot Ranger. So long as you use the collar correctly, you won't break his spirit. Ranger comes racing when he hears his prong collar jingling because he knows it means a walk in an exciting place. He's more excited for his prong than his martingale collar!


----------



## Darlenechilli (May 28, 2010)

We have a 17 month old rottie who lunges at other dogs to play. He has such a high play drive something we did not want to loose. My husband has just stared clicker training with him to get his attention back where it should be. After 3 weeks you would not believe it was the same dog. His 1st week after starting the new training method he worked away from all the other dogs and only did focus work. Week 2 worked at the edge of class and when all the other dogs were in a down stay he walked around them all and you could have picked me up off the floor, he was so focused on my husband he did not take any notice of the other dogs. He has always worked on a martingale collar.Try the clicker training to get the focus back on you it might take longer but it really dose work.


----------



## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I just want to caution that improper use of a prong or a choke collar can damage the dog's larnyx, causing permanent injury. I know of a couple of dogs the rescue got that had injured larnyx issues due to improper use of these. 

With Toby we did a combination of a Gentle Leader on his muzzle and a Gentle Leader harness. We attached the leash to the harness after we decided that using the one on his muzzle was not working as well. With both on he was very well behaved (even though the one on the muzzle was a placebo) and eventually we left the Gentle Leader over the muzzle off.


----------



## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

when I first got my Pudden, she was so out of control that the first thing I found that helped me gain some control was a prong collar. I only used it briefly to establish some basic leash manners - such as, don't lunge at other dogs and pull your momma into the dirt - and then we put it away forever.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

As long as you are not constantly yanking on the dog and he is not pulling on the prong collar do not feel guilty! It is far better for him to walk on a loose leash wearing a prong than for him to be pulling on a flat.

My first private obedience lesson I took the instructor immediately wanted to put my dog in a prong collar. I was aghast, however, trying to remain open-minded I conceded. Now, I will confess the prong has not worked for long walks for us (she's too physically tough), but I know now it is not a torturous device when used correctly.

EDIT: And all the patience in the world--zig-zagging, food, etc. never paid off despite incorporating them from the very first walk at 8 weeks old. I now use the head-collar and am happy enough with it for the time being--though it concerns me when she gets excited on it and tosses her head. If only the prong collar worked for us.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Ranger said:


> I'd rather give him one correction, instead of twenty that he ignores.


:thanks::You_Rock_:dblthumb2

Don't be a nagger!


----------



## eirepup (Apr 14, 2010)

Finn used to be really bad on the leash he would pull constantly and wreck my back (I have problems with my back) I was so frustrated I nearly cried a few times, if someone was with me I would have to ask them to hold him for a bit because I couldn't stand him pulling anymore and I hated walking him. I tried a face collar and choke chain but nothing slowed him down for long. Eventually after four and a half years of this I bought a slip lead and made the rule he had to walk behind me the entire time, so I started holding the lead short and behind my back and blocked him with my body from passing me something clicked in his head and now he walks perfectly beside me but does need the odd reminder to heel. I think Finn being 5 at the time and neutered a few months before definatly helped as well he had less puppy energy and had clamed down in general anyway. 

I don't think you shouldn't feel guilty about using the prong collar for training if it means less stressful and enjoyable walks for you and less risk of you getting injured.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I honestly am against using training collars like the prong and the choke chain when just walking... :uhoh:

I have a prong collar but rarely use it. And then it is just in training situations - like if you take your dog to class or are training them elsewhere. It is supposed to be tight and sit higher on the dog's neck - something I really didn't like. 

Maybe use it for training sessions and keep it on hand for those walks when your dog is out of control and needs a reminder to behave?


----------



## mullietucksmom (Mar 22, 2009)

I had a lot of trouble with ^Spark^ ..then I got a no pull harness...and our walks were a dream... I wasn't yanking him and he wasn't yanking me. There was nothing that could choke him...
I tried the one that went over the muzzle..my boy would have nothing to do with it..
So Skye too loves her no pull harness


----------



## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I use the prong with Griff because he is strong and I am weak. Plain and simple. I feel it's more important to have control than to have my arm popped out of socket. I find keeping the prong as high as you can on the neck is most effective. Griff's prong is really too large so if he shakes it down I do need to stop and adjust it but it's worth it to me to have control on our walks. 

Until your dog is trained better do keep him close as well. Griff was wise enough to back up and lunge if there was something he wanted at bad enough. 

He is much better and calmer now on walks but I still use the prong for safety's sake. He is thrilled when I bring out the leash with the prong collar because he knows it means walkies.

BTW - I didn't try the prong collar on him until I tried it on myself. It IS uncomfortable when you pull but it doesn't hurt.


----------



## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

My understanding is that you felt the prong was making your dog not himself and sad.

That isn't the experience I had with the prong. So you might double check to see if you have it on properly.

Ultimately if you don't like how the prong affects your pup...try some other options. It may not be the best for him or you.

Good luck!!


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

A properly fit prong collar does not hurt them. If you put the collar on your arm, and tighten it, you will see it deosn't hurt. It puts the pressure evenly around the neck. A regular collar, if the dog is pulling, can do lots of damage on the trachea.

If using a prong collar, always also attach the leash to the buckle collar. Prong collars can snap apart.


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

RSHANNING said:


> I would guess once the training process is done you should be able use a regular collar.


The training process is never done. 

Its lifelong. 

My guess is you have a young Golden who is not getting enough time with you or exercise. I truly believe Goldens need a minimum of 1 hour a day walking at a moderate pace. That is every day - not matter what the weather. 

There are two things I did that helped tremendously. As a rule, I have always made sure my Goldens go potty before we leave for the walk. They are much more able to follow my lead with that out of the way. In addition, you have to get a feel for their energy levels. If you know he is pent up - then let him run off-leash in the yard, a dog park, or someplace where it is safe. Give him 20 minutes just to get it all out of his system. Then put the easywalk harness on and walk at a good pace for another hour. 

Again, you have to do this every day - and you are always watching them and what it is ahead. If other dogs excite him, then cross the street - create enough of a distance where he can handle it.

I am very much against the pinch collar. They build a tolerance for it and you may think you are using it properly, but it could be that you are not. Right now, he will behave differently, until he figures out the pinch. And I don't think there is any comparison in placing a pinch collar on yourself and placing a pinch collar on an out of control dog who is being reined in with a couple of good pinches. The force of a dog jumping and lunging is very strong. I doubt you would be able tolerate the same conditions with a pinch collar on. 

The people with dogs who are good walkers - work with them - all the time. Their dog knows to look to them. The owner is learning a lot out there every day about their dog . . . and the relationship between them is very telling.

At around 3 years, they calm down significantly - but the training never ends. I am sorry, but I think you are headed down the wrong path here.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I agree with Marty's Mom...  

FWIW, there are different types of goldens out there. Some may be like my current in that from the time he was a puppy I couldn't get away from him. And during walks he would be constantly looking up and making sure I was at the other end of the leash and hadn't somehow vanished. 

In the past, I DID have the other kind, in that - nobody wanted to walk him because he pulled a lot and your arms and shoulders would be sore midway through the walk. <- That would be our Sam. He got a lot of exercise in the yard and was walked every day, but he was high energy and always in a rush to go out and explore the world when we walked him. Because he was 'dominant', it got worse when we walked with our other dog, because then he would be competing and trying to make sure that he (the alpha dog) was head and shoulders ahead of everyone else, especially the other dog.

What generally helped was just taking him to dog class and getting him to learn verbal corrections (easy, slow, pay attention, watch, no) as well as us learning how to correct him with the leash - even when he was just on the flat collar. 

The other thing that helped was he did settle down and started relaxing a little bit. He grew up. 

About the prong collars - I don't know if it would break and technically it doesn't hurt (unless you put it on wrong and it doesn't release but keeps digging sharply into your dog's neck). It still is a training collar and personally, I don't think it should be used for prolonged use. It isn't fair for the dog, plus I guess there is a chance that your dog will start ignoring the pinch on his neck with too much incorrect use of the collar. <- which happens with choke chains*. And if you have the collar on properly, the prongs are still making constant contact with the dog's neck, even if you have it on the 'dead ring' or have the leash attached to a buckle collar instead.

*Choke chains - I'll never forget this time I was out walking with my dog and I came across one neighbor who NEVER walked her dog or did anything with him. She kept the dog in the backyard and walked him when the day was nice and SHE wanted to go for a walk. As a result, this dog did not know how to 'walk nicely' and pulled. This was one of those heavyset oversized labs, so it was a lot stronger and bullheaded than most goldens. When this dog saw me and my dogs, he started pulling - even though his owner had him on a choke chain and was screaming 'heel'. And the dog broke the choke chain. <- It was hilarious, but I felt bad for the dog because I knew his owner would not be taking him out for walks much after that 'embarrassment'.


----------



## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

http://www.cherrybrook.com/index.cf...Mendota_British_Slip_Leads_three_eights_x_six

I would suggest this, but I removed the leather stopper. Actually it ended up looking like this: 
http://www.showleads.co.uk/lead_details.asp?name=Leather Slip Lead

I don't use it because I have a puller, but because I want to have a lead which is pretty large around the neck  But you could use it as correction in case the dog pulls. 

I bought my show lead from the first website but it is great for shows only. I wish it were a bit longer and thinner . For regular walks I use a longer show lead.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Trying positive training techniques like a clicker and "choose to heel" will deepen and strengthen your bond with your dog, so that the concepts of heel and loose-leash walking are understood rather than forced. Rather than reiterate all the reasons I don't believe prong collars are a good choice for training a pet dog, I will just link this heated thread. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56339&highlight=lucky's+mom,+prong+collar


----------



## anniekc (Jan 29, 2010)

I've always used well fitted, (actually loose) prongs on my labs, and I can guarantee you- they don't feel a thing! You'de have to have the prongs sharpened to a point or incredibly tight fitting to cause pain. I did during training used it on my "softie" golden Ruby, and it devastated her! She was so mortified that I only used it when she was VERY uppity, and maybe five times in total- Now, FINN, crazy 70lb. golden Finn, is being trained on the prong and he could care less about it! Still pulls, still wants to chase every butterfly that passes, still makes me wonder if I've lost my ability to train ANYTHING! So I guess it depends on the Golden's personality. I am not in the camp of there being anything cruel regarding prong collars.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

But if the collar is loose, then it is going to be sliding down to an incorrect position around the dog's neck. The correct position for a prong collar is high on the dog's neck, behind his ears. It has to be tight enough so it stays in place. It shouldn't be put on like a regular collar.

ETA - A prong collar, btw, does help if you have a bullheaded dog who just isn't paying attention during training sessions. If you use it correctly, then you should be able to go back to a flat collar or even a choke chain (which always sits loose and light around a dog's neck) after a couple days of using the prong (training sessions - as in the 10-20 minutes that you spend at home, driveway, dog class, training your dog how to walk nicely). As you aren't allowed to use prongs in the show ring, it's urgent to do most of your training with the types of collars you are permitted to use (flats or chains).


----------



## jakesmom2200 (Nov 24, 2009)

Thank you all for the comments, websites and other training ideas. For those of you that followed Bear's rescue thread on this board, you may already know that he's between 1 - 3 years old and is most likely a GR/great Pyrenees mix which probably contributes to him being so headstrong. 

I resorted to the prong to try to keep both of us safe - if he sees a cat or another dog, he's going to get to it even if it means pulling us both in front of an oncoming car or twisting and lunging so hard that I end face first in the asphalt (I'm still picking pieces out of my forehead :yuck

I'll keep trying different things (positive behavior training works well inside but right now, doesn't carry over when we're outside) but it was just reassuring to know that other people have used the collars for a time and then were able to stop.

Thank you all.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I didn't see those threads but just checked them out. What a beautiful boy<: 

Once he's good in the home, you can train him in an intermediate place. I usually go to a pavilion in our downtown at times when I know that it will be empty and clear of people. That's a good time to train with both the prong and your buckle collar. 

I also do empty parking lots at businesses which are closed on the weekends. 

And also the petstore in evenings or at times when I know I'll be the only person in the store besides the employees. 

Training outside of grocery stores works too, because you have the distraction of cars going past (especially if you have a car chaser), but you can place yourself so you are in a relatively controlled area and have time to give him the needed correction to behave himself. 

And get him into dog classes (but not the petstore kinds where you are tightly clumped into a small area with a zillion other dogs). See if there are any training clubs in your area. More than anything, it provides all of the distractions your dog doesn't get at home, but in a controlled environment. 

Good luck<:


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Jakesmom2200 - I agree with you 100%; you need to keep yourself and your dog safe when walking. If he's not at the point where you feel safe walking him with a handful of treats and a clicker in your hand - put on whatever you need to have control over him while you work through it. That was Ranger's biggest issue - he had no neck sensitivity after being tied up for the first 9 months of his life and has a very high prey drive. Treats meant NOTHING to him if we were walking outside. I started not wanting to take him for walks because I was getting so frustrated. I put the prong on for control, and kept working/training him. Now my 90 lb mom can walk Ranger on a slip collar and feel comfortable that he's not going to pull her over. 

I think some posters are worried it's going to be the be-all, end-all of training, like slap it on and then your work is done but you stated you're going to keep trying new things and that's great. You should be able to work up to using it only sparingly but in the meantime, use the prong so you and your dog are safe on walks. If that's what it takes, do it. I did and I don't regret it for one second.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't mean to be dismissive of other's feelings -- but wow the flow of emotions over a training collar really is over the top! A prong collar is much safer, comfortable and more effective than many other tools on the market labeled as "positive" "non-force" or whatever. As you can clearly see, it works very well. I have NEVER seen a dog be "depressed" having to wear one, frankly I find that assertion rather comical. 
Don't feel guilty, instead feel happy that you've found a tool that helps you walk your dog and actually enjoy it!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I think some posters are worried it's going to be the be-all, end-all of training, like slap it on and then your work is done but you stated you're going to keep trying new things and that's great. You should be able to work up to using it only sparingly but in the meantime, use the prong so you and your dog are safe on walks. If that's what it takes, do it. I did and I don't regret it for one second.


I could see that she was conscientious about training her dog re/her posts.  

I was more concerned about other people out there who might just be taking shortcuts when it comes to training - such as my neighbor whose dog broke the choke chain. 

As long as you are training your dog and working him to that point where he settles down and can walk nicely on any kind of collar at your side without pulling at passing people, dogs, and cars - you should be OK.


----------



## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> Trying positive training techniques like a clicker and "choose to heel" will deepen and strengthen your bond with your dog, so that the concepts of heel and loose-leash walking are understood rather than forced.


I agree 100%. I was to the point of giving up Parkers walks all together, they were SO miserable and downright dangerous. I tried everything, including the make like a tree and stop and hold your ground every time he pulled. While I still use that technique it did nothing for him at the time. It took forever to get 100 feet. I tried turn abouts, something else that helps now but did not faze him at the time. He tugged and jerked even with a prong collar.
The only success I had was training and training and more training with the clicker and treats, but even more importantly in my mind was working on that type of training in the yard before setting out in the neighborhood or anywhere new where there are so many new things to see and smell.

We're nowhere near perfect yet, though I think if we would've started this type of training when he was much younger we would be by now because I would not be having to undo what I already allowed. He goes to weekly obedience classes and during class exercises he keeps his eyes glued to me even with the distractions of the other dogs and the beginner agility class on the other side of the large room.
He's a very strong and high energy dog so I doubt I'll ever feel completely safe totally relaxing and taking my attention off of him but he has made extraordinary improvements.


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

sameli102 said:


> I agree 100%. I was to the point of giving up Parkers walks all together, they were SO miserable and downright dangerous. I tried everything, including the make like a tree and stop and hold your ground every time he pulled. While I still use that technique it did nothing for him at the time. It took forever to get 100 feet. I tried turn abouts, something else that helps now but did not faze him at the time. He tugged and jerked even with a prong collar.
> 
> The only success I had was training and training and more training with the clicker and treats, but even more importantly in my mind was working on that type of training in the yard before setting out in the neighborhood or anywhere new where there are so many new things to see and smell.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post. I would not have a dog if I had to use a prong collar. There is so much joy in this journey - and you will make mistakes along the way - but stay with it. You will be so pleased. What I see in you here is confidence and great insight having done the real work of raising a Golden.

Using a prong collar is the easy way - its cutting corners. And its disappointing to see posts in support of it. I don't think owners or "trainers" who resort to it are bad people - but you really don't know what you don't know. And it does trouble me knowing that someone who is using a prong collar could influence another to do the same. So I will stick my neck out here - and some of you may not like it.

I have three Goldens - I have never used a prong collar - its not an option in my view. My oldest is a strong dog - he was difficult as a teen - he was very prey driven - and would much rather meet people than take a treat. I had to think smart with him. Watch him - spend a lot of time bonding. The turning point was when he started looking to me - watching me - everything started to click then. 

I walk all three dogs together - sometimes with a harness - sometimes with just a flat collar - sometimes they'll have the harness and I'll take it off 30 minutes into the walk. I also spend time with each of them alone. There is always a Golden with someone in our family. Its all about establishing yourself as their leader in a positive way - building trust - living together - and every day getting out there with them. And I so appreciate what Ljilly28 says - nothing is forced - there is an understanding. You want that understanding . . . . they are so willing and capable.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Trying positive training techniques like a clicker and "choose to heel" will deepen and strengthen your bond with your dog, so that the concepts of heel and loose-leash walking are understood rather than forced. Rather than reiterate all the reasons I don't believe prong collars are a good choice for training a pet dog, I will just link this heated thread. http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56339&highlight=lucky's+mom,+prong+collar


I'm with Ljilly on this one (as you can tell if you check the other thread).

Prongs work on the basis of negative reinforcement, and I wouldn't recommend to anybody that they train a major life skill through the constant use of negative reinforcement.

If you need one to control the safety of a situation, especially in the short term, then I can see why you'd resort to one. In the real world, there are sometimes situations you can't manage without the use of specialized equipment. But as a substitute for consistent training, I don't think they're a good idea.

Teaching your dog to walk politely and not to lunge is a matter of building a habit that's stronger than the distractions, and nothing builds a strong lifelong habit better than repetition and positive reinforcement.

Negative reinforcement is not as powerful or durable as positive reinforcement, and no matter which dog "expert" says a particular technique works or doesn't, the behavioral research is incredibly clear on the power and durability of positively reinforced habits.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The problem with prongs, IMO... well, two actually:

I'd say 8-10 people teach their dogs to pull on a prong, only the dog learns not to pull so much that it causes discomfort. This minimal pulling, because it's so much better than the "other version of pulling" is usually allowed by the owner. In short, the dog still isn't learning to loose leash walk, and when you take the prong off, you're back to a freight train again.

Secondly, I've seen many dogs develop behavior problems following prong collar corrections. For instance, your dog on a prong sees another dog and gets all barky and wiggly and silly and can't control himself and lunges in attempt to greet the other dog. ZOIKS! hits the end of the leash on the prong collar > that's uncomfortable. Some dogs, over time, Cliff Note that sequence to something like "other dog = ouch! neck! > therefore, other dogs are bad now. GRRRR"

I have put prongs on two dogs in my training career. Both were coffee table labs w/ owners who were really trying to do everything right and who were investing a ton of time into training, but still wanted to get the dogs out in public which = situations they weren't ready for (loose leash walking wise -- too many distractions). Neither would use a Gentle Leader and EZ Walks weren't out yet. In both cases, I stressed to the owners that they were never allowed to let the dogs lean into the prongs on the pinch collar and in fact, the first time we put it on the dog, I issued one good correction the first time he tried to pull to convey to the dog what he was wearing. (Worth noting both dogs had temperaments I knew wouldn't be totally shut down by a correction.) 

It's not how I usually train, but after careful consideration, it was the best approach for the situation given what the owners were and were not willing to do. Both owners were diligent in their training and eventually weaned off the prongs for all environments.

That's the key, IMO -- don't rely on the pinch. You still have the responsibility of making it better (b/c it's more fun, or rewarding) in the dog's mind to walk YOUR way. That's where things like choose to heel can be so helpful!

I always remind my clients of this fact:

To a dog, walking OUR way is pretty dumb. It's painfully slower than they'd choose to go on their own and we're asking them to try and ignore all the good stuff! If that's what we expect, we'd better be willing to pay up BIG TIME for the behavior. My clients who think that way (often feeding the dog's entire breakfast or dinner by hand while on a walk) have the best long term outcome for LLW.


----------

