# Have to say....



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I think having 5 position changes in Open, compared to 3 in Utility is a little bit on the overkill side of things. I suspect this will have people currently going to UDX to have to stop for months to retrain the Open exercises. I wonder why they did not make it 1 position change...


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Like most people I think group long sits & downs suck too. Is it possible they feel it's a safety issue with the unattended group aspect? Leaving a 6 lb yorkie next to a 100 lb dog must be terrifying for the handler & the dog. 

Couldn't the current exercise be modified in some way?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Somebody just about gave me a heart attack when they jumped the shark and suggested that whatever the replacement exercise for s/d, that it would have to be a group exercise. !

Seriously.

If we are going to go that route, might as well do something like bringing back the group stand stay. 

It would be the one thing that's missing between novice and utility.

It is something that is already practiced by everyone who does group classes.

And you could also have it set so people are a 6 foot distance away from the dogs.



As far as the up down up down up down signal exercise as being proposed for open. It sounds like you have double the possibility of nq'ing than the utility signal exercise. You might as well bump the utility exercise as it is down to open and have double the difficulty exercise bumped to utility.

As it is, nobody I know seriously trains a clean "stand" position change. A lot of us DO train the dogs to stand at a distance when we are drilling position changes and don't necessarily want to go back to the dog to set them up again. But it is not a clean command. I'd wager most of us have dogs that do travel forward or backwards when getting up to a stand. <= Heck, Bertie feels the need to do a spin when getting up from a down to a stand. 

It would just be a big mess.

Not just retraining, but the huge cost and depression to entries because people do not have passing dogs when it comes to signals. Not at a 20 foot distance.

Utility signals are trained early and often for everyone I know. But it takes a long time to train the dogs to change position in place. 

I tested the new suggested signal exercise for CKC, and Bertie did do all of the position changes. But he also traveled forward about 4 feet between all the position changes.

And it would be costly for AKC, because majority of Open entries are people adding OTCH points and UDX legs. 

I know that they wouldn't suddenly change everything. That it would take about 3-6 months min for them to change to the new routine. But it would take that long for everyone to train something new to their dogs. LOL. And something tells me that some of these people are not going to be happy about that. These are people whose vacations are scheduled around them doing out of state trips to other trials or national obedience competitions.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I train a remote stand and positionals -- back up with each command. Bridget has been teaching this for years. 
I don't think we should be afraid of a new exercise because training the dog might be required...that's the point


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/ob...837.992883729.1505154367-355031937.1443395801

So.....

Anney, do you have any suggestions on a good stand signal command that doesn't look like a sit command? Right now I use both hands and do a sweeping gesture a couple times to get Bert up and backed a step or two. 

Me kicking a foot out usually works (LOL - no, I don't kick my dog, but I do nudge a foot under the belly to train a stand close up and even from a distance he gets what that command means) but I'm going to guess that wouldn't be allowed. 

I'm debating about shaping a VERBAL stand command.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/ob...837.992883729.1505154367-355031937.1443395801
> 
> So.....
> 
> ...


I use a kickback stand trained with food and use the word stand. I wonder what the distance will be? If close, a verbal would work. I hope it's close.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FosterGolden said:


> I use a kickback stand trained with food and use the word stand. I wonder what the distance will be? If close, a verbal would work. I hope it's close.


Yeah... I don't use the kickback stand for obedience (I find my guys do a more natural and square stand by stepping forward into it) but did teach it. But my signal for that is from the heel position. 

The "signals" (if you can call swooshing hand motions signals LOL) is related to the kickback stand, sort of. But it's not really clean or ideal. Bertie spins sometimes.... 

I'm out of town this week (work related travel), but am thinking about hunting down some big name trainers at a trial this weekend (golden specialty) and getting their ideas for how to train a distance stand command.

Other thing. My next dog is probably going to have killer sits/downs just in time for SIX FOOT DISTANCE S/D novice stays next year (if the changes pass)! <= This is sarcasm.  I have my Jacks entered in pre-novice this weekend. It was a "celebration because he's OK" thing I decided on last month. As of this past week I just remembered that there is a dumb sit stay in the middle of the ring while I speed walk around. >.< And Jacks is the dog I promised would not have to stay ever again in his life as he taught me to have humility and a good sense of humor with his dislike for staying. #facepalm


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> Yeah... I don't use the kickback stand for obedience (I find my guys do a more natural and square stand by stepping forward into it) but did teach it. But my signal for that is from the heel position.
> 
> The "signals" (if you can call swooshing hand motions signals LOL) is related to the kickback stand, sort of. But it's not really clean or ideal. Bertie spins sometimes....
> 
> ...


Do you mean a stand SIGNAL? It's easy to teach a verbal. Not sure what I'd use for a signal... I have open/utility class tonight and it might come up. I'll report back if I hear anything interesting.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The thing I'm not liking is the possibility that none of us are going to know for sure what the actual exercise requires/looks like until Nov, assuming the changes are approved when they put it to a vote then. 

We would have until March 2018 to train for the changes, but I'm kinda confused about why they even NEED the position change exercise when they aren't proposing doing away with the sits/down stays. They are keeping the s/d stays - but making them individual exercises. 

Other thing.... I've heard people say that March 2018 is a long time from now and everyone has plenty of time to finish their dogs in Open before the changes... except, that's not the case here in Michigan.  

We have the "home shows" (the clubs everyone trains at are holding trials) next month. I was hoping to have my dog entered in regular open to hopefully get our CDX out of the way this year. But we're not even clean enough on drops for me to even enter him in preferred (he drops 80% of the time on the first call, I want him 100%). 

So we miss out on the home shows next month - that's pretty much it until next Feb. Which is a show that I really would not want to do open with Bertie. It's a very crowded facility and when you leave the ring, you basically disappear from your dog's sight because of the crowds outside the rings. So if your dog is not really seasoned and perfect at stays, it's not the show to start off with. 

So basically what that means is if I miss the home shows next month. That's it until May.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Duplicate post


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Young dogs, older dogs. Dogs close together some with leashed some without (it was a hurried gathering of Sunfire dogs still at the match). Handlers away from their dogs taking pictures..
.kneeling...on the floor ... stooping etc

This will not be a sight seen too often if they so dumb down standard obedience for the sake of keeping whiners happy. The preferred track? If people really wanted no stays, enough people would have moved over to create demand & competition. But no the changes weren't good enough! 

What's next? Open & Utility needing to be done on flexi's?

Dogs needing to be crated in cars and only brought inside when they are on deck?

People being so accustomed to not needing to be aware that their dogs are dogs and not little kids in fur coats that they demand you can speak and clap to their dog while doing the exercises?

Oh wait! Those things sound like AKC listening earlier and creating rally and the preferred obedience tracks.

Whatever happened to

Train, don't complain.

Let the small dogs do groups by their own selves if that will solve the concerns - oh but wait! If a dog is doing a retrieve in an adjacent ring, might the noise spook their dog? Better make the shows single ring.

What about the handlers who clap in rally? Best make rally run separate from the obedience.

Oh, I could go on but I think my opinion is clear! And regardless of what the FB groups which use correction based training are saying, nope R+ training is not at fault. Lack of training using any method is at fault. And people who believe life needs to be sterile and safe no matter what they choose to do.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Lack of training using any method is at fault.


Sharon... I think training METHODS are a big problem and/or reason for problems.

I hold that opinion including looking back at why I have two straight dogs with stay problems after having the two dogs before them never breaking a stay. 

Something got skipped over in the case of my dogs. I think method was the issue. And when I say method - I mean literally the steps which are used to teach a solid stay from day 1. Doesn't matter if that method includes treats or not. 

I went from training with somebody who had a fantastic way of training stays so dogs did NOT break ever. And that wasn't using harsh methods or using treats. This was the trainer who firmly advocated NEVER EVER using treats in connection to stays. She was adamant about not building a dog's desire to get you to return faster in order to reward. I think that is something that I missed with the 2 I have now.

The crazy thing is when people tell me to train my dogs and not complain and so on... I can tell them that my dogs do 20+ minute sits and downs at home. 

In class, they are able to hold stays on the side while I'm putting people through their exercise or playing figure 8 posts for them. 

Oh heck. My one instructor has a chess board exercise. This is where she has up to 5 sets of figure 8 posts with owners standing directly across from their dogs who are holding stays. And people do figure 8's or esses or whatever they want around the people and dogs. <= My dogs can hold these stays with no issue. No interest in people or dogs weaving or circling around them. No need to break. And these stays can stay longer than 5 minutes before the dog is released for his turn at doing the heeling.

Teaching stays are not the problem. And you can't claim somebody's issues with stays are just related to the dogs not get trained enough. 

My feeling is something is missing in the method with my dogs. And it's me skipping a step. I'm convinced. 

The next pup I bring home, I'm going to have a serious talk with a lot of people to sort out the steps I need to follow. Or pull out my notes from when I trained Danny ages ago. To see what I need to do different. That's regardless of whether AKC gets rid of stays. And I don't anticipate they are actually going to get rid of them completely.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Meant to say earlier - it kinda slipped my brain as I was reading 3 different things at the same time. LOL.

Over the weekend, I talked to some people to get an idea of what they thought of the possible changes.

Some didn't even know that changes were happening. This included a couple people who have had the same issues with stays with their dogs despite having 2 UD dogs before them. 

Other people were thrilled. Because they all said that they'd seen really bad fights in the stay ring....

I get the impression that the only quibble is not knowing WHAT is replacing stays... and people who have dogs who are ready or who are going after UDX legs or OTCH's are unhappy about having to go back to the drawing board and train new exercises. 

I also get the impression that stays are not going away. The groups are though.

There's some people who are spitting mad and threatening to quit. But these are also people who have been the most vocal when it comes to punishing anyone who has dogs break stays and continues to show them. They were all over the idea of suspending anyone whose dogs break a stay in a trial situation, as ridiculous as that might be. <= Watching at the trial this past weekend, I saw a couple OTCH dogs breaking their stays. And these are dogs and handlers who are at EVERY SHOW and can be relied on to send entries.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Breaking a stay and going after another dog are 2 very different things.

All dogs break at some point. They show enough they will break. Heck, that is sometimes what allows the very good but not super high scoring dogs to earn their points and HIT awards. Stays are hard! And I see the proposed changes as detrimental. Asking around at the match yesterday only one person was in favor of the changes. Everyone else was not.

We love the sport and honestly if the changes are dumbing down enough may stop showing. I hate leashes on dogs during groups. To me that is far more inviting to dog fights and aggression being possible.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> I train a remote stand and positionals -- back up with each command. Bridget has been teaching this for years.
> I don't think we should be afraid of a new exercise because training the dog might be required...that's the point


Just have to say that we are about a month past the initial proposal being released publicly. And Anney's words absolutely are speaking the truth on this....

I think in general based on what I've seen from people online and friends here locally, we all got over the initial (three letters that aren't allowed on GRF) reaction, had a lot of brainstorming online and in person as far as how to teach this new exercise. And it took a month, but there's a bunch of us getting all tickled because our dogs are getting it. It's really cool teaching something new, knowing that it IS challenging, and seeing the light bulbs go on with the dogs... 

There IS more to come. I really can't wait until we can start doing these formally in fun matches and really getting an idea of what Open will be like next year - if the proposal is moved forward next week.


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