# Unethical Breeders - what to do?



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Do they say they are a member of the GRCA or their local golden retriever club? There is a code of ethics that is recommended to follow by belonging to those groups. Otherwise, not sure what else you can do. The AKC is just a registry, so they will not get involved.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

You can name them here so when people search them on Google this thread comes up. If they are a member of the GRCA or using their logo you can report them to the GRCA. If you have proof of anything more sinister like lying on registration, about parentage, etc you could take that to the AKC. It all depends on the circumstances and what you can prove.


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## davmar77 (May 5, 2017)

Have you checked to see if there are previous complaints? If this is ongoing it could be a matter for the better business bureau or even the fraud department of the local law or both.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Clearances-it is important that they are sent to OFA because of this sort of situation. They can't be falsified AND on OFA. They can be falsified and kept in the file cabinet. 
I wish you would name them. It would be easily verified if they do not have clearances, and while you are right in that there is only so much research a person puppy hunting can do, if they are using google, it would come up here.


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## Golden293 (Dec 7, 2017)

The breeder is Legacy Champion Goldens (previously known as Lake Chelan Goldens) in Washington State. Looks like they started in 2015, so there is not a build up of a lot of complaints, publicly at least. Seems like there are a lot of internal issues with the golden/dark golden puppies. They got a lot of new light cream colored dogs and they are from different lines (not AKC registered though? but still way overpriced), so they might be fine health wise, but there is still an issue with her having WAY too many breeding dogs and many not being 2 years old. I also worry about the conditions that they're keeping that many dogs in, there is no way they're all getting the attention they deserve. When I was looking I reached out to them and there were a lot of holes in what they were saying that prevented me from moving forward and resulted in me digging into their business some more. I'm glad I found my girl elsewhere and that she didn't come from these same lines. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and what I'm seeing from the outside looking in.

Has anyone else looked into them and have any thoughts? If you search for them, is there anything you see off the bat that would raise red flags, in your mind?


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Well I checked just one of their males the one that say is an Int Champion For health information His hips passed but his Siblings show many problems one had mild dysplasia one borderline with the same type results behind him his bloodlines show its a huge gamble for health reasons. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1833477 They do not do eyes or have never sent them into to OFA which is part of the expected health testing The female they bred to they talk about her hips but could not find her on OFA. They use the terms English cream which is term that is a typical read flag. And way overpriced I see puppies from top breeder here in WA for the same price out of generations of full clearances and health testing and multiple titles.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

You were wise to avoid that breeder. For one thing, they're lying about health certifications. They claim their dogs have them when they really don't. Take a look at Glory, whom they have puppies out of currently. https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=887310

They didn't even list her registered name correctly. She has no health certifications.


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## Golden293 (Dec 7, 2017)

Is there a way to validate the "Paw Print Clear/Carrier" results? Is that stored in a database like OFA? They claim that for a lot of dogs but I don't know how it can be verified.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Like heart and eyes, it can be if they send in the paperwork. If they choose not to send it in you'd just have to trust them or get a copy.


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## TheosMom419 (Feb 23, 2018)

Thanks so much for this! I just started researching breeders and it looks like I can cross Legacy Champion Goldens off my list. I thought something was up when I noticed that they hid their reviews posted on their Facebook page but look to be posting frequently.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Golden293 said:


> Is there a way to validate the "Paw Print Clear/Carrier" results? Is that stored in a database like OFA? They claim that for a lot of dogs but I don't know how it can be verified.


PawPrint has a pedigree page that clearances via DNA can be listed on- but I frankly find it so hard to maneuver around I have only tried to use it one time to no success... for me, I send the boys in to OFA and use the girls to make breeding decisions on. I do wish the PP database were more user friendly.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

It intrigues me that they own dogs who are bred in the US and do not even have AKC registration on them- Lizzy in particular- I am curious how they register her offspring. Her eyes were last done in Bulgaria. They should be done yearly.
There is a litter sired by Ranger- she claims excellent hips- but this dog has no hips or elbow on OFA- https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=796634 (and following her doing FCI on her eastern bloc dogs, he should have OFAs since he is American?)
But go look at his change history on k9data.. interesting... he's been locked.


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## Golden293 (Dec 7, 2017)

I saw that but didn't understand it - why would the k9data be locked?


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Looks like he was locked because the breeder entered false clearance information. One of the admins went in, changed it, and then locked the dog from being edited in order to prevent the breeder from falsifying clearances again.

ETA: it looks like this happened twice, and the second time, the admin locked it.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> It intrigues me that they own dogs who are bred in the US and do not even have AKC registration on them- Lizzy in particular- I am curious how they register her offspring. Her eyes were last done in Bulgaria. They should be done yearly.
> There is a litter sired by Ranger- she claims excellent hips- but this dog has no hips or elbow on OFA- https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=796634 (and following her doing FCI on her eastern bloc dogs, he should have OFAs since he is American?)
> But go look at his change history on k9data.. interesting... he's been locked.


Interesting. Does K9 data verify all clearances?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I do not believe they verify all-


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## Golden293 (Dec 7, 2017)

So how would k9data know to check into these ones? Looks like Glory’s is locked also.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

There are admins who are in the know...through social media, etc- it doesn't take much for someone to notice an ad on FB or an inquiry here that leads to some people's lack of ethics being noticed... and then a quick look at their site....
many people see k9data as a pet project, and we notice when someone is putting not-cool stuff (truth wise) and tell an admin.
Lesley (BLAZENGR on this forum) is an admin-


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> I do not believe they verify all-


Thanks 
When I couldn’t get the links to work for one of my dog’s clearances I got frustrated and just left them. The next day I went in to try again and Lesley had fixed them for me and the links all worked. 


Should prelim clearances link though to OFA?
https://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=868595


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Prelims done after 12 months and signed to release failing results will link to OFA because those they list there on OFA, as prelims. This dog (Lottie) either did not get prelims after 12 mo and have an initialed application, or the dog is over 25 months now- they tend to leave them up about a month past the time they can get finals. 
I did look at the change history on this one- it looks like the owner falsely put in Good etc twice in Nov 2017 and it was removed before she decided to call it prelims. 
I don't think I would believe either.. since it is obvious she was trying to deceive.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> Prelims done after 12 months and signed to release failing results will link to OFA because those they list there on OFA, as prelims. This dog (Lottie) either did not get prelims after 12 mo and have an initialed application, or the dog is over 25 months now- they tend to leave them up about a month past the time they can get finals.
> I did look at the change history on this one- it looks like the owner falsely put in Good etc twice in Nov 2017 and it was removed before she decided to call it prelims.
> I don't think I would believe either.. since it is obvious she was trying to deceive.


Thanks, I wasn’t sure how prelims worked.

I have wondered in the past about Pawprints and how you would verify them. I sent Flyer’s into OFA.


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## Golden293 (Dec 7, 2017)

Is there a way to validate the titles if she’s claming that some are champions? I wish there was more to do to stop this lying!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

​


Golden293 said:


> Is there a way to validate the titles if she’s claming that some are champions? I wish there was more to do to stop this lying!


AKC and UKC, yes- 
AKC you would go to the 'store' and order up points and title progression on the AKC number or registered name. 
Titles will be there.

UKC I am not sure having only once looked up one but I believe they have a publication that shows monthly or quarterly new titles ... 
INT no- but INTCH is more like a match anyway so isn't all that.


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## Lemondropp (Feb 27, 2018)

I got my dog at Legacy Champion Goldens. Even tho I love mine, I wouldn't get another from her. All of this was good info and I wish it was there sooner for me. You get good attention while waiting for your puppy and then she chooses favorite families and ignores the rest. Our dog has issues.


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## Alf5854 (Apr 3, 2018)

I just entered my dog into K9-Data and then got an email asking for proof that what I was entering was correct. I asked if his 5 year generation pedigree would work and they said yes. They then went even further and entered all the AKC numbers, etc. I was happy they requested this info.


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## Alf5854 (Apr 3, 2018)

Can you go into detail the issues your dog encountered and who the parents were?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I don't know if you all caught that this breeder is connected to Denzil's goldens also. 
Prism, do you remember posting about this dog: Pedigree: Hunter Hammon
He's from Lake Chelan golden retrievers, which is the same breeder as this one that OP is talking about.
None of the breeders associated are decent breeders.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> I don't know if you all caught that this breeder is connected to Denzil's goldens also.
> Prism, do you remember posting about this dog: Pedigree: Hunter Hammon
> He's from Lake Chelan golden retrievers, which is the same breeder as this one that OP is talking about.
> None of the breeders associated are decent breeders.


I do remember-
I wish I could see a pic of this dog's bite..... 

So, 'trying to do better' is what so many people have been posting here lately. It is seriously depressing me.


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## jdavisryan (Jan 28, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I do remember-
> I wish I could see a pic of this dog's bite.....
> 
> So, 'trying to do better' is what so many people have been posting here lately. It is seriously depressing me.


"Do. Or do not. There is no try." Yoda


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## Cindyh (May 27, 2018)

Would you share what issues your dog has and when you got him/her? Thank you!


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## Rosebud_2469 (Apr 15, 2020)

I'd also like to know what issues anyone has had with their dogs that came from Legacy Champion Goldens. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


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## GoldenSearching (May 2, 2020)

I'm sad to have had a very negative experience with Legacy Champion Goldens. They were unreasonable and frankly greedy regarding my deposit. As a business owner, I fully understand the need to have a no deposit refund policy when holding a puppy for someone-- it would be unfair to lose other customers when someone had a puppy reserved and then changed their mind. In this case, that's not what happened. I'm the first to admit that I jumped the gun putting a deposit down for a puppy before my application was even accepted. These are stressful times, and there are many owners having so much time to train a puppy now because of COVID and fewer breeders breeding. 
So, like a house hunter during a seller's market, I unwisely put my application in, then a day later put a deposit down before knowing the application was even accepted. I was nervous doing this, and asked for a reply as soon as possible since I had questions. After four days of waiting to hear if my application was accepted, and not getting any response at all about anything, I was nervous enough to withdraw my application. Yes, they say on their applications that deposits are not refundable, but I hadn't even been accepted yet or told they were holding a puppy for me. I reasoned that if they weren't willing to give me a refund when they hadn't accepted my application, or even told me they were holding a puppy for me then I wouldn't want to work with them anyway. Buying a puppy is such an important decision that requires trust (in both directions).

Unfortunately, they not only told me that they wouldn't refund my deposit but also called me fraudulent in saying I didn't receive an item for my payment (a puppy hold) and that I was being an extortionist for giving them the heads up that I felt I needed to share this experience on yelp. Legacy Goldens is out no money and no time working with me. Customers should understand their rights -- just writing "No refund" does not give a company cart blanche in any circumstance. The legal advice I found: "Generally, consumers have a right to a refund when there is a major problem with something they bought. Stores cannot take away this right by claiming they have a 'no refund' policy or displaying a 'no refund' sign. This also applies to an online store's refunds and returns policy." 

In any case, I'm very happy I'm not going to get a puppy from them, even if it's a $650 mistake.


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## GoldenSearching (May 2, 2020)

NurseLaura19 said:


> I'd also like to know what issues anyone has had with their dogs that came from Legacy Champion Goldens. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


Hope you see this NurseLaura. I'd like to help others avoid the difficulty. Finding the right breeder is such a hard task!


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

NurseLaura19 said:


> I'd also like to know what issues anyone has had with their dogs that came from Legacy Champion Goldens. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


This thread is a joke! Coming from someone who has personal experience multiple times with this breeder! They are an amazing family!
Absolutely ZERO health problems! I have three....yes I said THREE dogs from LCG! All three of them, upon taking them to the vet as puppies, were given full waivers for the wait periods for their health insurance policies that they don’t have any preexisting conditions. This means upon thorough inspection, they don’t see any signs of any inherited conditions with hips, eyes, heart, skin, etc. As a matter of fact, he personally commented each time that he rarely sees such overwhelmingly healthy puppies in his office!
Please do yourself a favor and don’t fall victim to this horrible thread primarily made up of other breeders trying to bash this one to somehow get ahead! Just plain ugly in my opinion. If you want a great puppy from a great family, go with LCG!
Please don’t hesitate to reach out to me if you want any information with a REAL customer with actual experience!


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

GoldenSearching said:


> Hope you see this NurseLaura. I'd like to help others avoid the difficulty. Finding the right breeder is such a hard task!


@GoldenSearching


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

GoldenSearching said:


> I'm sad to have had a very negative experience with Legacy Champion Goldens. They were unreasonable and frankly greedy regarding my deposit. As a business owner, I fully understand the need to have a no deposit refund policy when holding a puppy for someone-- it would be unfair to lose other customers when someone had a puppy reserved and then changed their mind. In this case, that's not what happened. I'm the first to admit that I jumped the gun putting a deposit down for a puppy before my application was even accepted. These are stressful times, and there are many owners having so much time to train a puppy now because of COVID and fewer breeders breeding.
> So, like a house hunter during a seller's market, I unwisely put my application in, then a day later put a deposit down before knowing the application was even accepted. I was nervous doing this, and asked for a reply as soon as possible since I had questions. After four days of waiting to hear if my application was accepted, and not getting any response at all about anything, I was nervous enough to withdraw my application. Yes, they say on their applications that deposits are not refundable, but I hadn't even been accepted yet or told they were holding a puppy for me. I reasoned that if they weren't willing to give me a refund when they hadn't accepted my application, or even told me they were holding a puppy for me then I wouldn't want to work with them anyway. Buying a puppy is such an important decision that requires trust (in both directions).
> 
> Unfortunately, they not only told me that they wouldn't refund my deposit but also called me fraudulent in saying I didn't receive an item for my payment (a puppy hold) and that I was being an extortionist for giving them the heads up that I felt I needed to share this experience on yelp. Legacy Goldens is out no money and no time working with me. Customers should understand their rights -- just writing "No refund" does not give a company cart blanche in any circumstance. The legal advice I found: "Generally, consumers have a right to a refund when there is a major problem with something they bought. Stores cannot take away this right by claiming they have a 'no refund' policy or displaying a 'no refund' sign. This also applies to an online store's refunds and returns policy."
> ...


@GoldenSearching
Wow! Just wow! I’m honestly amazed at your willingness to bash a breeder based on your (admit-ant) short coming of jumping the gun! You’re truly ugly. You claim to be a fellow business owner, well guess what I am too. If you truly are you should be the first to understand that a policy is a policy. Do I need to spell out the definition of non-refundable for you? Or can you not comprehend that? Clearly not.
You are so wishy-washy. You clearly admit that you “jumped the gun putting a deposit down for a puppy before my application was even accepted.” Then go on to say you “unwisely put my application in, then a day later put a deposit down before knowing the application was even accepted.” Does it anywhere on their literature state that there are special circumstance reserved for high and mighty people like you to get refunds on deposits. No. Period. So no you are not entitled to a refund, nor is anyone else. They make it pretty black and white that once it’s paid it’s paid. Your bad for not being more patient.
The only person missing out in this situation is you. I have THREE amazing female dogs from LCG. All perfectly health and amazing dogs. All have earned their Canine Good Citizen Awards through AKC.
I feel bad for you actually, because in the end, your impatience cost you not only $650 dollars, but more importantly an amazing puppy.
Grow up and learn to take the blame for your own shortcomings of being an impatient entitled woman. Let this be a lesson to you.....because I can promise you the hundreds of over the moon happy families (who regularly get together for group LCG meet ups) won’t miss you. Take your negativity somewhere else.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

I am not a breeder, nor even a serious owner of goldens. With that said...

#1 - How can any vet discuss hips, eyes, heart, skin, etc. from an "inherited conditions" perspective, based on a well-puppy exam. My understanding is that a major reason why goldens have to be at-least-two to breed is that this the earliest age at which they can get OFA certifications. Can the vet say "yes, looks healthy"? Yes. Can that vet say anything about conditions that could take years to develop? If they could, then it seems OFA certifications wouldn't have to wait until 2 years-of-age.

#2 - The first question I asked of the breeders I talked to was about OFA certifications. Ethical breeders had no issue sharing this info with me, even providing me with AKC #s so I could independently verify both results and currency of testing.

To the original question?
#1 - Become an educated consumer.
#2 - Don't give your business to breeders who don't conform to the ethical standards.
#3 - Don't let your budget dictate your own ethics.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

@SoCalEngr 
To your #1) 
I agree that it does indeed take a dog Turing 2 years of age to get full health clearances for breeding purposes. However, All health insurances (that I’m aware of) offer waivers on extended wait periods linked to preexisting conditions. Only applicable to the policy if a Veterinarian
using their best judgement, eye exams, joint exams, x-rays...any means necessary, and usually specified on these forms will then sign off on each individual possible pre existing condition. Mine all passed with flying colors. Of course this doesn’t definitively mean they won’t develop anything ever In the future, but nothing makes me angrier than a pet owner later down the road placing instant blame for any little thing that comes up with their dog.
Your #2) 
I have access( which was easily obtained) for AKC numbers, titles, and OFA Clearances for the sires and dams to each of my babies.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

hkjohnson13 said:


> @SoCalEngr
> I have access( which was easily obtained) for AKC numbers, titles, and OFA Clearances for the sires and dams to each of my babies.


I'm glad you have this information. Even happier that you are doing well with your goldens.

Having just acquired our puppy, we needed to get health insurance for her. At least one company had a 12-month waiting period on hip dysplasia for goldens. We went with another, more expensive, insurance that only required a 30-day wait period. This insurance also waived the wait period if the insurance was purchased within 24-hours of having a vet examine the puppy.

Out of curiosity (and an innate desire to discuss something concrete and first-person, vice commenting on the experiences-of-others), I looked up this breeder's website, and noted that there is a new litter from "Hunter Hammon" and "Lora". So, I did the same thing I did when checking on our recent puppy.

The last (only?) OFA certifications on Hunter (AKC SR73554605) are listed from 2016 for hips and elbows. Nothing on eyes or cardiac. My understanding is that the age of the OFA certs for hips/elbows, and the lack of OFA certs for eyes/cardiac, are both significant warning indicators.

I then checked on Hunter's dad, Harley's Maverick (AKC SR35741003).The only OFA cert was a "fair" on hips from 2009. But, the OFA registry shows puppies from 2012 and 2014. Again, my understanding is that these should be considered as warnings.

Same check on Hunter's mom, Chasen Brandy Magic (AKC 62554404). OFA report of "fair" on hips from 2012. Nothing else.

Checking on Lora ("Magnetic Personality") showed nothing in OFA. I recognize that Lora is from Hungary. But, it seems reasonable (to me) that a USA breeder would still get OFAs (especially before acquiring the dog for breeding purposes).

Bottom line...For me, as a consumer "looking for a pet", there's enough gaps in the documented health certifications to make me think twice. And, while "fair" is not considered a negative, it's the lowest of the "acceptable" grades and would give me another reason for second thoughts.

Everyone needs to do their own research and make their own decisions. The Internet makes that incredibly easy. This is why I am a huge advocate for informed consumers.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> I do remember-
> I wish I could see a pic of this dog's bite.....
> 
> So, 'trying to do better' is what so many people have been posting here lately. It is seriously depressing me.






SoCalEngr said:


> I'm glad you have this information. Even happier that you are doing well with your goldens.
> 
> Having just acquired our puppy, we needed to get health insurance for her. At least one company had a 12-month waiting period on hip dysplasia for goldens. We went with another, more expensive, insurance that only required a 30-day wait period. This insurance also waived the wait period if the insurance was purchased within 24-hours of having a vet examine the puppy.
> 
> ...


Funny you should mention Hunter, and I’m glad you did, because he just happens to be the Sire to all 3 of my dogs. With you being such “a huge advocate for informed consumers,” it should make you happy to hear that that is exactly what I happen to be. 
When looking into purchasing a puppy, I asked for physical copies of Hunter’s cardiac and eye exams which were given to me without hesitation (and I still have). Hunters hips/elbows are rated as good so looking any further into his parents is really irrelevant. Correct me If I’m wrong, but checking heart and eyes is a fairly new practice. Again to my understanding, some vets still only check hips and elbows and many still don’t yet have the technology (especially in more rural areas) to submit things to OFA. This is why it should be up to consumers to ask for these documents (being informed consumers and all). Also many of the LCG sires and dams are from foreign countries (as is the Dam to one of my females.) All of these imports have the proper clearances from their countries of origin. Just ask them for the documents, they have no problem providing them. Why should we be putting these dogs under more stress and anesthesia to run the same tests over again? I think this is a question more “informed consumers” should be asking! In America, sadly we have become brainwashed into believing over testing and over vaccinating is what’s appropriate for our companions. I don’t think it’s any secret that that is probably one of the main reasons our dogs just don’t live as long as those in most other countries that don’t put their dogs through such strenuous/stressful predicaments over and over. We can do better and I solute LCG for doing their part in what they believe is best for the health and well being of their family pets which just so happen to be Sires and Dams to amazing puppies!


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## LoveMy3Goldens (May 3, 2020)

What a nasty person you are! We don't know of any other breeder that has had this much love, attention, and wholeheartedly invested all their time and effort into their puppies. We are still absolutely over the moon happy with our grandpup Henry who is a riot and honestly the best looking golden boy we've ever had!!!!!


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## GoldenSearching (May 2, 2020)

hkjohnson13 said:


> @GoldenSearching
> Wow! Just wow! I’m honestly amazed at your willingness to bash a breeder based on your (admit-ant) short coming of jumping the gun! You’re truly ugly. You claim to be a fellow business owner, well guess what I am too. If you truly are you should be the first to understand that a policy is a policy. Do I need to spell out the definition of non-refundable for you? Or can you not comprehend that? Clearly not.
> You are so wishy-washy. You clearly admit that you “jumped the gun putting a deposit down for a puppy before my application was even accepted.” Then go on to say you “unwisely put my application in, then a day later put a deposit down before knowing the application was even accepted.” Does it anywhere on their literature state that there are special circumstance reserved for high and mighty people like you to get refunds on deposits. No. Period. So no you are not entitled to a refund, nor is anyone else. They make it pretty black and white that once it’s paid it’s paid. Your bad for not being more patient.
> The only person missing out in this situation is you. I have THREE amazing female dogs from LCG. All perfectly health and amazing dogs. All have earned their Canine Good Citizen Awards through AKC.
> ...


A future buyer can decide --what is the appropriate response if someone jumped the gun and sent in a deposit too soon? Is it appropriate to keep someone's deposit 4 days after it was sent, and before confirming a puppy was being held for them? Does that make a buyer 'an entitled woman?' or' high and mighty?' I'm fine admitting I was too impatient-- not an uncommon mistake. Future buyers will make up their own minds, but at least now they know how these breeders will treat them. Why does this comment sound like it's coming from the breeder themselves or a family member? There's too many personal attacks for it to seem plausible that this was written by a random happy customer.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

Lol @GoldenSearching the answer to your question... YES, it is appropriate to keep someone’s deposit 4 days after it was sent. By you sending in a deposit that is you saying yes I 100% want a puppy from you. Why send the money otherwise? That’s like going to a store and paying for a gallon of milk that you may or may not want? Makes no sense. And for you or anyone else wondering, I am not the breeder nor a family member, just a very happy satisfied customer! Please follow my precious girls on Instagram @thejohnsongoldengirls. I’m not some fake on the internet trying to hide my identity. I’m not that pathetic. I just hate to see a great family be bashed for no reason at all by internet warriors. Just a sympathetic human sticking up for kind people. They don’t deserves the hate you and others on this thread have shown, period. I’m not a person that can just sit back and watch when I personally know their true character. That’s all.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

@GoldenSearching i guess I should have added too, I have a bit of credibility on this topic. I too once “jumped the gun” and paid a 250 dollar deposit on a Scottish Kilt Kitten, and then changed my mind. As an adult, I realized this was a decision I consciously made, and never once did I even consider asking for a refund, just saying. I knew the meaning of a deposit when I paid it. 
ok, ok....now I’m done, just had to get that all out of my system because I can’t stand to sit back and watch good people be torn apart for something that isn’t their fault. And as far as all the other haters on this thread....any information you are seeking from LCG, all one must do is ask. They are more than helpful and accommodating to answering any and all questions you may have, as well as providing documents for any dogs in question! 
That’s all, goodnight! I hope you and Your families are staying home and safe through these difficult/strange times!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

hkjohnson13 said:


> Funny you should mention Hunter, and I’m glad you did, because he just happens to be the Sire to all 3 of my dogs. With you being such “a huge advocate for informed consumers,” it should make you happy to hear that that is exactly what I happen to be.
> When looking into purchasing a puppy, I asked for physical copies of Hunter’s cardiac and eye exams which were given to me without hesitation (and I still have). Hunters hips/elbows are rated as good so looking any further into his parents is really irrelevant. Correct me If I’m wrong, but checking heart and eyes is a fairly new practice. Again to my understanding, some vets still only check hips and elbows and many still don’t yet have the technology (especially in more rural areas) to submit things to OFA. This is why it should be up to consumers to ask for these documents (being informed consumers and all). Also many of the LCG sires and dams are from foreign countries (as is the Dam to one of my females.) All of these imports have the proper clearances from their countries of origin. Just ask them for the documents, they have no problem providing them. Why should we be putting these dogs under more stress and anesthesia to run the same tests over again? I think this is a question more “informed consumers” should be asking! In America, sadly we have become brainwashed into believing over testing and over vaccinating is what’s appropriate for our companions. I don’t think it’s any secret that that is probably one of the main reasons our dogs just don’t live as long as those in most other countries that don’t put their dogs through such strenuous/stressful predicaments over and over. We can do better and I solute LCG for doing their part in what they believe is best for the health and well being of their family pets which just so happen to be Sires and Dams to amazing puppies!


Eyes and heart should be sent to OFA for listing and more importantly verification. They are easily falsified. It's cheap- first eye is $12. and later years I think $8. Heart is $15. There is no reason to not send them in. 
No dog stands alone- a dog whose pedigree is not deep can be Exc/norm and I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole if he has nothing behind him. A Fair/norm with all Exc sibs is far safer imo. But you are wrong- eyes have been done since the 60's. Hearts have been done for over 20 years. And neither of them can be done by that rural vet who has no technology (where is he?) so that point is moot. 
The foreign dogs - clearances from foreign countries more specifically the eastern bloc countries are done far too young and 'don't count' here. There is no reason not to get current clearances after the dog is mature enough- and no need for anesthesia for any clearance.
Obviously you found this thread and ran with it- but if you want to learn more about safely breeding Goldens, please hang around. I'm sure it is disconcerting to find you have three dogs from a breeder who is not considered an ethical breeder by the community.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

hkjohnson13 said:


> Lol @GoldenSearching the answer to your question... YES, it is appropriate to keep someone’s deposit 4 days after it was sent. By you sending in a deposit that is you saying yes I 100% want a puppy from you. Why send the money otherwise? That’s like going to a store and paying for a gallon of milk that you may or may not want? Makes no sense. And for you or anyone else wondering, I am not the breeder nor a family member, just a very happy satisfied customer! I have no facade I’m trying to hide behind and like previously stated you can email my personal email at [email protected] or follow my precious girls on Instagram @thejohnsongoldengirls. I’m not some fake on the internet trying to hide my identity. I’m not that pathetic. I just hate to see a great family be bashed for no reason at all by internet warriors. Just a sympathetic human sticking up for kind people. They don’t deserves the hate you and others on this thread have shown, period. I’m not a person that can just sit back and watch when I personally know their true character. That’s all.


A deposit is not given for merely reading an inquiry- should the OP have sent a deposit without being asked for one? No- but like any other deposit, it should be returned if no value given for it and it appears no value was given. So that puts on the breeder getting cash for nothing- not right livelihood by any definition. 

The thing is- this breeder's non-compliance with the best practices of the Code of Ethics is the problem. It's usually easier to just do things the way they should be done rather than have puppy people come defend their bad practices. If you should decide to breed your girls, I hope you will take the time and minimal money to do that the right way.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

hkjohnson13 said:


> When looking into purchasing a puppy, I asked for physical copies of Hunter’s cardiac and eye exams which were given to me without hesitation (and I still have). Hunters hips/elbows are rated as good so looking any further into his parents is really irrelevant.


As a consumer, your experience raised a question for me. If the breeder is willing to provide documentation of up-to-date hip/elbow/eye/cardio exams, then what "added value", if any, is attained by having this information posted into the OFA database?. After a few minutes of Googling, I found the following in an article in "_The Veterinary Journal_".

"_*Radiographs are independently evaluated by three board-certified veterinary radiologists out of a pool of consultants maintained by the OFA. The consensus rating of these three radiologists becomes the hip rating that is reported to the owner and referring veterinarian.*_ "

So, aside from any other considerations (e.g., being able to see results on prior generations, litter mates, etc.), having the results submitted to OFA's database adds a layer of peer review to provide consistency across readings/findings. Seems worth paying for, especially given the small incremental costs involved. On a somewhat more cynical note, if one is paying "OFA-certified prices", one is "not getting full value" if the OFA review of the exam/results is not performed.

As an "add note", I realize that the statement is specific to the radiographs for the hips/elbows, and does not address the eyes/cardio. I stopped doing additional Googling and did not run the eyes/cardio policy to-ground. But, I have a suspicion that this may be a factor in the GRCA moving to a cardiologist for the cardiac certification, as this would provide reviewable data for the OFA to confirm the cardiologist's findings.

To be clear, I am not implying that anything you were provided was inaccurate. You feel that you received the information you needed to make an informed decision, and I'm good with that. Rather, your experience gave me reason to question if I had overthought mine, ergo the Google-foo on the OFA process.

In the spirit of transparency, we were made aware that some of the OFA certifications on our puppy's parents were a year out-of-date. More importantly, we were also made aware that the method of examination/certification for cardiac issues was not aligned to current GRCA guidance. But, because all of the results were posted in the OFA database, we were able to research back multiple generations and satisfy ourselves that there were no "red flags".

YMMV.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

@SoCalEngr @Prism Goldens this will be my last post here, as I came here to try and rectify damage being done to a perfectly sound family and breeding program. I think it’s pathetic that internet warriors will come on here to cause such damage to ones livelihood with nothing to really back it on. Upon further thought, It seems to me, the only logical conclusion here is that you all are other breeders (clearly) trying to bash a great program that is doing really well to somehow make you look better? Not sure as I don’t associate with this type of person enough to be familiar with that mindset.
I will be the first to admit as just a consumer, nothing more, who was not at all interested in breeding....I don’t know who gets sent what and where they should be found and clearances and how much they cost on and on like you all some how seem to know. All of my females have been spayed after a year old and first heat cycle. No breeder here! All I know is when asked for the information, I easily received it and reviewed it. I also know I 100% have three very very healthy goldens from LCG. I can’t believe the moderators of this forum have let this bashing and slander go on for so long and I no longer wish to be a part of it. I hope you all really sleep well at night knowing you are actually causing emotional harm and distress to great people and pets that at the end of the day you know nothing about other than what the ugly internet can provide. No need to respond, I will be turning off the notifications for this forum  as I said last night I hope you all have a great day!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

There is a standard for ethics in breeding Goldens. Actually standards, best practice and such are common in most fields and not a concept unique to dog breeding.

The definition for ethical breeding in our country is set by the Golden Retriever Club of America.
The Standard for health testing is:
Hips - X-rayed at or after 24 months of age and submitted to OFA or PennHIP for evaluation. If PennHIP is used the results should be a
submitted to OFA recording publicly.
Elbows- X-rayed at or after 24 months of age and submitted to OFA for evaluation.
Heart - Tested at or after 12 months of age with a veterinary Cardiologist and submitted to OFA for certification.
Eyes - Tested annually by a veterinary ophthalmologist and submitted to OFA for certification.
DNA - Testing recommended based on the risks associated with the individual dogs.

If you are interested in verifying the source, here you go. GRCA Code of Ethics - Golden Retriever Club of America

Here is also a video showing what tests should be done and how to verify any breeder‘s claims. 




When this breeder has been held to the standards for health certifications in our country, they have been found lacking. That is not slander or libel, even if you don’t like those facts.

It is not an attack or smear campaign to point out a roofer is not license, bonded or insured. Those item are the basis for being a reputable contractor. Do people hire workers who are not? Yes, but they should know the risk. It is the same thing happening here. This breeder should have full and verifiable health certifications, they do not.

Potential puppy buyers should know that so they can make their best decision. If your choice was that you are happy supporting a breeder not meeting testing standards, then that was your best decision. Other people will make different choices but they should be able to have full information to base their decisions on or their best decision is stolen from them.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Since the last post seemed, at least somewhat, directed at me personally, I feel a response is justified, albeit I'm going to try and keep it as factual as possible. The bottom line is that I am new to having a golden, had to do a lot of Google-foo to come up-to-speed on what I should be looking for, and still made some (what I think are) minor errors. Fortunately, I was able to find good information, and some extremely use direct help, to make the best choices I could. That is the spirit in which I have offered up my observations on the importance that OFA certifications had in helping me, as a consumer, make an informed choice.

I'd like to also observe that I have posted primarily about the OFA process, certifications, and their import in how I made my decisions with-respect-to breeders and puppies. The only thing that came close to being directed at this specific breeder was my looking up the OFA database on the parents of a litter currently being offered for sale. And, nothing derogatory was said about the breeder (in fact, the breeder was never mentioned by name). Rather, I applied the same rationale to this breeder/litter as I did when selecting my Kona.

With that said...



hkjohnson13 said:


> @SoCalEngr @Prism Goldens
> I think it’s pathetic that internet warriors will come on here to cause such damage to ones livelihood with nothing to really back it on.


I'm unsure how "nothing to really back it on" comes into play. The OFA certification checks were done against a currently advertised litter, the information on the OFA certifications (or, in this case, lack thereof) are in the public domain, and information on how the OFA reviews hip/elbow radiographs was both quoted and linked to.



hkjohnson13 said:


> @SoCalEngr @Prism Goldens
> Upon further thought, It seems to me, the only logical conclusion here is that you all are other breeders (clearly) trying to bash a great program that is doing really well to somehow make you look better?





hkjohnson13 said:


> @SoCalEngr @Prism Goldens
> And for you or anyone else wondering, I am not the breeder nor a family member, just a very happy satisfied customer!


As I've said many times, I am "just another consumer" who has very recently gone through the process of reviewing breeders and selecting a puppy. You don't have to believe me, and it really doesn't matter whether you do or not. But, I do find it interesting that you would level the same charge that you went out of your way to avoid in your own posts.

For what it's worth, I believe you. And, as I've said multiple times, I'm glad you're happy and your goldens are healthy. It's just that, as a potential resource for others doing the same research that I was doing not-that-long-ago, I believe it's good to have the discussion about OFA certifications with-respect-to selection of a breeder.



hkjohnson13 said:


> @SoCalEngr @Prism Goldens
> I will be the first to admit as just a consumer, nothing more, who was not at all interested in breeding....I don’t know who gets sent what and where they should be found and clearances and how much they cost on and on like you all some how seem to know.


I'm not that much different than you. As a matter of fact, your posts actually allowed me to discover some additional information with-respect-to OFAs (the three-member peer review) that I did not know before. It's just Google-foo.



hkjohnson13 said:


> @SoCalEngr @Prism Goldens
> All I know is when asked for the information, I easily received it and reviewed it. I also know I 100% have three very very healthy goldens from LCG. I can’t believe the moderators of this forum have let this bashing and slander go on for so long and I no longer wish to be a part of it.


Again, very happy to hear this. I posted to share what I have discovered about OFA certifications with respect to assessing breeders, not to denigrate any specific breeder. In my case, I know that more-than-one breeder did not adhere to any of the OFA certification guidelines recommended by the GRCA, and I chose not to do business with these breeders (although they were 25%-to-40% less expensive).



hkjohnson13 said:


> @SoCalEngr @Prism Goldens
> No need to respond, I will be turning off the notifications for this forum  as I said last night I hope you all have a great day!


For what it's worth, I am responding for others who may read these posts. I have to agree that the tenor of the posts have gotten a bit tense, and that is in no one's interests. But, I think the general discussion about breeders, OFAs, etc. is still valid and helpful for those searching for a breeder.

Cheers!


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

hkjohnson13 - is this you?








Hannah Johnson (@hkjohnson13) • Instagram photos and videos


7,280 Followers, 1,377 Following, 619 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Hannah Johnson (@hkjohnson13)




www.instagram.com




I'm also really curious about lovemy3goldens - you guys created accounts within 2 hours of eachother to defend an unethical breeder, and 'liked' each others posts - when no other longer standing forum members did that. That's quite unusual behaviour on this particular forum.
Just sayin'.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

HollyB said:


> hkjohnson13 - is this you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Mod Team verifies the registration of *each* user that Registers (creates an account) on the Forum.

Forum Rule #10 prohibits users from creating multiple accounts-









GRF Board Rules & Registration Agreement


General information about posts/thread and account on GRF This general information statement is to make all members of Golden Retriever Forum aware that we do not delete posts or threads (unless it is unwanted commercial advertising = "Spam"). Please think before you post as anything you post...




www.goldenretrieverforum.com





As I said, the Mod Team verifies each user account.......


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

With respect, I did not allege these were same people. I only pointed out their timing and behaviour was unusual.
Also with respect, verification for GR forum membership is only based on ownership of a unique email address. Many people have (perfectly legitimate) multiple email addresses and can technically register multiple forum accounts without any other verification checks.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

HollyB said:


> With respect, I did not allege these were same people. I only pointed out their timing and behaviour was unusual.
> Also with respect, verification for GR forum membership is only based on ownership of a unique email address. Many people have (perfectly legitimate) multiple email addresses and can technically register multiple forum accounts without any other verification checks.


I can't go into it, but we have various steps we take when we verify the registration checks.........


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

hkjohnson13 said:


> Funny you should mention Hunter, and I’m glad you did, because he just happens to be the Sire to all 3 of my dogs. With you being such “a huge advocate for informed consumers,” it should make you happy to hear that that is exactly what I happen to be.
> When looking into purchasing a puppy, I asked for physical copies of Hunter’s cardiac and eye exams which were given to me without hesitation (and I still have). Hunters hips/elbows are rated as good so looking any further into his parents is really irrelevant. Correct me If I’m wrong, but checking heart and eyes is a fairly new practice. Again to my understanding, some vets still only check hips and elbows and many still don’t yet have the technology (especially in more rural areas) to submit things to OFA. This is why it should be up to consumers to ask for these documents (being informed consumers and all). Also many of the LCG sires and dams are from foreign countries (as is the Dam to one of my females.) All of these imports have the proper clearances from their countries of origin. Just ask them for the documents, they have no problem providing them. Why should we be putting these dogs under more stress and anesthesia to run the same tests over again? I think this is a question more “informed consumers” should be asking! In America, sadly we have become brainwashed into believing over testing and over vaccinating is what’s appropriate for our companions. I don’t think it’s any secret that that is probably one of the main reasons our dogs just don’t live as long as those in most other countries that don’t put their dogs through such strenuous/stressful predicaments over and over. We can do better and I solute LCG for doing their part in what they believe is best for the health and well being of their family pets which just so happen to be Sires and Dams to amazing puppies!


GRCA has required the 4 core health certifications for decades, heart and eye certifications are not new requirements. There are some board members here that can probably tell you exactly what date the GRCA wrote the requirements, but they have been required for at least the 14 years I have been posting on this board. 






Health Screenings for the Parents of a Litter - Golden Retriever Club of America







www.grca.org


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## Natic (Jan 15, 2020)

Golden293 said:


> The breeder is Legacy Champion Goldens (previously known as Lake Chelan Goldens) in Washington State. Looks like they started in 2015, so there is not a build up of a lot of complaints, publicly at least. Seems like there are a lot of internal issues with the golden/dark golden puppies. They got a lot of new light cream colored dogs and they are from different lines (not AKC registered though? but still way overpriced), so they might be fine health wise, but there is still an issue with her having WAY too many breeding dogs and many not being 2 years old. I also worry about the conditions that they're keeping that many dogs in, there is no way they're all getting the attention they deserve. When I was looking I reached out to them and there were a lot of holes in what they were saying that prevented me from moving forward and resulted in me digging into their business some more. I'm glad I found my girl elsewhere and that she didn't come from these same lines. Keep in mind this is just my opinion and what I'm seeing from the outside looking in.
> 
> Has anyone else looked into them and have any thoughts? If you search for them, is there anything you see off the bat that would raise red flags, in your mind?


I actually have a dog from LCG, and I could not be more pleased. According to my vet my girl is pretty perfect ( hips, eyes, etc) and I get compliments from everyone who meets her. Our dog trainer who sees hundreds of dogs all the time said she was one of the best bred dogs he had ever seen. Her attention, attitude, personality and looks are incredible. Best in mind I have had 15 dogs in my life, so this is not my first rodeo. Over half of my dogs have been Goldens. And I am so happy with my girl that we are going to be adding a second one from LCG. Our girl is dark golden....which according to you is their issue. 
so just curious as to how, not having one of their dogs you got to this conclusion


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Natic said:


> According to my vet my girl is pretty perfect ( hips, eyes, etc) and I get compliments from everyone who meets her.


Pet vets are not doing a very thorough examination of hips and eyes (Or elbows or hearts). So, while it is a good thing that there is nothing severe enough to be impacting your dog’s health, breeding dogs should have had certifications by the appropriate veterinary specialists at the appropriate ages. This breeder is not doing that.

If your dog has had health checks beyond the well check, we would be thrilled to see a link to OFA that shows at least a dog they produced has full and verifiable health certifications when not a single dog listed on their website does not.


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## Natic (Jan 15, 2020)

LJack said:


> Pet vets are not doing a very thorough examination of hips and eyes (Or elbows or hearts). So, while it is a good thing that there is nothing severe enough to be impacting your dog’s health, breeding dogs should have had certifications by the appropriate veterinary specialists at the appropriate ages. This breeder is not doing that.
> 
> If your dog has had health checks beyond the well check, we would be thrilled to see a link to OFA that shows at least a dog they produced has full and verifiable health certifications when not a single dog listed on their website does not.


Actually they are doing just that!
















and those that are not posted you can just request (which I did) and they send them to you. 
whats more, my girl sprained her ankle playing with a very rowdy German shepherd, so we did xrays and an MRI. So the vet I mentioned is actually an orthopedic surgeon. I will go ahead and say he probably knows more about dog hips than you do, unless you are also an orthopedic vet, in which case once I see your credentials I will gladly send the X-ray and MRI results for you to verify!


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Remember that nobody here is disparaging the dogs as companions or pets, nor are they attacking the breeder. They are simply comparing what the breeder does to the GRCA Code of Ethics, in which this breeder does not come to standard. Does this mean the dogs are unhealthy? Not inherently no. Does this affect them in any way as companions or reduce their value as companions? No. 

This is simply an objective comparison of what we expect of our breeders. All breeding animals should have cardiologist heart, elbows, hips, eyes yearly. On the bitch, her eye exam is out of date and she was bred. Could the breeder have an updated eye exam and never notified the OFA? Yes. However, we can only go off of what we see. The male never had all of his clearances. 

Does this in any way affect your dogs or anybody else's form this breeder? It doesn't at all. These dogs could still be perfectly healthy. We are only looking at what we can see and what we know is expected.


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## Natic (Jan 15, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> Remember that nobody here is disparaging the dogs as companions or pets, nor are they attacking the breeder. They are simply comparing what the breeder does to the GRCA Code of Ethics, in which this breeder does not come to standard. Does this mean the dogs are unhealthy? Not inherently no. Does this affect them in any way as companions or reduce their value as companions? No.
> 
> This is simply an objective comparison of what we expect of our breeders. All breeding animals should have cardiologist heart, elbows, hips, eyes yearly. On the bitch, her eye exam is out of date and she was bred. Could the breeder have an updated eye exam and never notified the OFA? Yes. However, we can only go off of what we see. The male never had all of his clearances.
> 
> Does this in any way affect your dogs or anybody else's form this breeder? It doesn't at all. These dogs could still be perfectly healthy. We are only looking at what we can see and what we know is expected.


Apologies, but they are indeed disparaging the breeder. That is exactly what the first few posts did. To be 100% honest I came across this post before getting my dog, and almost didn’t go with them because of it. But my husband had already paid the deposit so I just crossed my fingers. Glad he did.
And as to what you said about the eye exam, sorry to say you are mistaken. Her eye exam was good from August 4 2018 to August 4 2019, and she was bred in May 2019. My dog was born May 24th 2019


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Yes, thank you for proving my point that neither of these dogs have full and verifiable health certifications. The mom did at one point. That shows us the the breeder knows how to get full certifications and has access to appropriate veterinary specialists but on all of their dogs (that I have found as of this post) fail to have full and verifiable health certifications.

There is no good reason for a breeder where this is clearly a Family income source to not pay the $15 recording fee for heart certification or the $12 for the first eye certification and $8 for each additional year certifications. Not saying this is the case but the exam forms are not the certification for a reason. They can and have been altered or produced as complete counterfeits. Sending in to OFA stops that possibility as OFA can compare the research copy send directly from the vet with what ever the breeder is sending to determine if it is a true and accurate copy and from there issues the actual certification.

This is nothing against your personal dog which sounds like they have done wonderfully in your family.

All this is, is taking this breeder and applying the standards for ethical breeding in regards to health certification. When that is done, this breeder fails repeatedly. If you are happy to continue to support these practice, that is your decision to make. These threads are read by a bunch of lurkers though and they deserve to know that if they are looking for a breeder that is meeting the minimum health standards for responsible breeding, this is not a good fit for them.

Honestly, it would be so much easier if they would just do what they know they should. The fact they don’t will always result in the facts of their program being discussed.

Female with expired eye certification that shows they know how to get full certification -


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1797214











Their popular stud dog missing Heart and Eye certifications. Also has no offspring with full certifications including as of today three that are missing a hip or an elbow certification and three that have neither hip or elbow certifications. This means they were never tested or failed due to dysplasia.


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1797214


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Natic said:


> Apologies, but they are indeed disparaging the breeder. That is exactly what the first few posts did. To be 100% honest I came across this post before getting my dog, and almost didn’t go with them because of it. But my husband had already paid the deposit so I just crossed my fingers. Glad he did.
> And as to what you said about the eye exam, sorry to say you are mistaken. Her eye exam was good from August 4 2018 to August 4 2019, and she was bred in May 2019. My dog was born May 24th 2019


I do need to apologize, I saw 2016, and not 2018.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Natic said:


> whats more, my girl sprained her ankle playing with a very rowdy German shepherd, so we did xrays and an MRI. So the vet I mentioned is actually an orthopedic surgeon. I will go ahead and say he probably knows more about dog hips than you do, unless you are also an orthopedic vet, in which case once I see your credentials I will gladly send the X-ray and MRI results for you to verify!


If you feel you need the additional information, you should have the vet send them in to OFA. If the views are correct for OFA and your dog was old enough at the time of the x-ray, OFA will issue a certification assuming there is no dysplasia.

I don‘t see anyone claiming to be an orthopedic vet on the thread. No one has to be a vet of any kind to verify health certifications. That easily independently verifiable function of OFA is there for the every day Joe.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

Guess who’s back and just caught up!!! You are clearly grasping at straws.
I’m just here to back up @Natic because it appears we have puppies from the same litter. At the time our dogs dam (Siomha) was bred her health clearances were clearly 100% accessible and up to date. You are correct to notice that Hunter (the sire) does not show clearances for Heart and Eyes, but like a previously stated, all you have to do is ask and those documents are willingly made available. As a consumer I could personally care less weather the clearances are reported to the “proper” agencies, as long as they are being performed and can be accessed. An ethical breeder to me, is one that preforms the proper tests, which they do. Who cares who they directly report to if they have indeed been completed? Also our dogs from that litter aren’t yet 2 years of age so there is clearly no OFA link to show any certifications. They’re too young. According to the previous post made by @LJack, the GRCA Code of ethics only requires eyes to be checked on annual basis, the rest are fine to be done after 2 years of age and only once....which they have clearly done. When you say none of Hunters offspring have all their correct clearances listed, that has nothing at all to do with LCG, that’s on whoever owns those dogs. And really, unless they’re breeding, it doesn’t matter at all. I’m here to argue the original thread that LCG are “unethical breeders” when that is clearly not the case. They love their dogs. They have a huge family that helps care for their dogs. They test and certify their dogs. All it takes is a quick phone call to truly connect with these people and ask questions to realize they are indeed ethical. The only thing this site makes me question is the ethics and morals of other breeders and moderators. My version of ethics must clearly differ from yours. I would never publicly bash someone in the same industry as I, as to me it’s just in poor taste. Can’t we be a community of helping hands instead! If you feel this breeder (or any) is doing something so wrong, how about reach out to them and lend a helping hand. Maybe walk them through why you feel that even though they are preforming the health clearances in a proper fashion, you feel it’s important that they be posted to the correct reporting sites. Give people the benifit of the doubt. We all have lives outside of our careers, and I’ll be the first to admit I’ve been late or forgotten to report something or pay a fee to a certain agency. All that’s important to me as a consumer is that the tests have been completed. Period. And when asked, they gladly have record of them. The only grounds you all have to state that this breeder is unethical is that their certifications aren’t listed on OFA....if that’s your only reason that’s pathetic. To any potential buyers, just know....all you have to do is ask, and i promise you will be provided what you need and treated with kindness  Also, you will clearly have a supportive community of other LCG owners Cheering you on, and we do regular meet ups, which are super fun! I have met some of the greatest people and lifelong friends through my dogs, and for that i am truly grateful!


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## Natic (Jan 15, 2020)

LJack said:


> If you feel you need the additional information, you should have the vet send them in to OFA. If the views are correct for OFA and your dog was old enough at the time of the x-ray, OFA will issue a certification assuming there is no dysplasia.
> 
> I don‘t see anyone claiming to be an orthopedic vet on the thread. No one has to be a vet of any kind to verify health certifications. That easily independently verifiable function of OFA is there for the every day Joe.





LJack said:


> Yes, thank you for proving my point that neither of these dogs have full and verifiable health certifications. The mom did at one point. That shows us the the breeder knows how to get full certifications and has access to appropriate veterinary specialists but on all of their dogs (that I have found as of this post) fail to have full and verifiable health certifications.
> 
> There is no good reason for a breeder where this is clearly a Family income source to not pay the $15 recording fee for heart certification or the $12 for the first eye certification and $8 for each additional year certifications. Not saying this is the case but the exam forms are not the certification for a reason. They can and have been altered or produced as complete counterfeits. Sending in to OFA stops that possibility as OFA can compare the research copy send directly from the vet with what ever the breeder is sending to determine if it is a true and accurate copy and from there issues the actual certification.
> 
> ...


The fema


LJack said:


> If you feel you need the additional information, you should have the vet send them in to OFA. If the views are correct for OFA and your dog was old enough at the time of the x-ray, OFA will issue a certification assuming there is no dysplasia.
> 
> I don‘t see anyone claiming to be an orthopedic vet on the thread. No one has to be a vet of any kind to verify health certifications. That easily independently verifiable function of OFA is there for the every day Joe.


lJack, a couple of things: First, my dog was born May 2029. If you can read you will see her eye certification was still valid. 
second, my response about the orthopedic vet was because the person responding to me said vets didn’t do thorough examinations. So honestly, your two responses make no sense. All that is left for me to think (being as I am not a breeder or expert, just a very happy dog mom) is that you have an axe to grind. And you are trying to bully someone online (which sadly is the world we live in)
When I asked for certifications before getting my dog, they sent them all to me. I had numerous conversations with them, and as I stated the proof is in the pudding. They have a great community of customers who love them (like me) who all share photos and stories and get together for their fur babies to play. Many of us are repeat customers and will continue to be for as long as we are around. In the way that is how they will keep surviving despite people like you. 
maybe everyone should be more like our beloved goldens and just be kind. But it is clear some of you could learn more from your dogs.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

hkjohnson13 said:


> @LJack, the GRCA Code of ethics only requires eyes to be checked on annual basis, the rest are fine to be done after 2 years of age and only once....which they have clearly done.


Please show me where I said any thing else.




LJack said:


> There is a standard for ethics in breeding Goldens. Actually standards, best practice and such are common in most fields and not a concept unique to dog breeding.
> 
> The definition for ethical breeding in our country is set by the Golden Retriever Club of America.
> The Standard for health testing is:
> ...


Yes, it is clear that you are happy to support a breeder who doesn’t meet the standards for responsible breeding in the US as outlined by the not for profit expert organizations of GRCA and OFA and that is fine for you. It does not change the fact that this breeder is not meeting those standards, it just means they meet you own personal standards which is your subjective opinion.



hkjohnson13 said:


> As a consumer I could personally care less weather the clearances are reported to the “proper” agencies, as long as they are being performed and can be accessed. An ethical breeder to me, is one that preforms the proper tests, which they do. Who cares who they directly report to if they have indeed been completed?


To me personally I would find the production record for my dog’s parent important. If a dog has offspring listed on OFA it is because there is at least some testing going on. Why is that testing happening? I think it is a reasonable conclusion to think that it is likely because that are being considered to be incorporated in a breeding program as it is very rare for everyday owners to pursue certifications. So if the siblings or half-siblings of my dog have documented issues or are completely missing certification, I would be concerned. When you see missing hips and/or elbows it can be for only two reasons, the dogs were not tested or they failed. Again if other testing is done it begs the question of did they fail? It is something I as an owner of a closely related dog would be concerned over. Your mileage may and probably does vary.



hkjohnson13 said:


> When you say none of Hunters offspring have all their correct clearances listed, that has nothing at all to do with LCG, that’s on whoever owns those dogs. And really, unless they’re breeding, it doesn’t matter at all.


By the way you will noticed I have never called you a name, attacked your character or your intelligence. I would appreciate the same courtesy. I am providing facts and documentation to back it up. If you choose to ignore that, that is your prerogative.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

@LJack we can agree to disagree, you think they haven’t performed proper testing/certification....while I have proof they have. That’s the end of the story. I’m providing actual facts, you are providing accusations of things not true (other than you’re right, all things haven’t been reported to OFA, which I stated I don’t care about.) You stating you have never attacked my intelligence is laughable. Every post you make is attacking my intelligence. We will never agree on this, and I could honestly care less about your opinion, all I hope is that others who read this will see my side and believe the facts from an actual customer.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Natic said:


> lJack, a couple of things: First, my dog was born May 2029. If you can read you will see her eye certification was still valid.


Please show me where I said that.



LJack said:


> Yes, thank you for proving my point that neither of these dogs have full and verifiable health certifications. *The mom did at one point. *That shows us the the breeder knows how to get full certifications and has access to appropriate veterinary specialists but on all of their dogs (that I have found as of this post) fail to have full and verifiable health certifications.





Natic said:


> second, my response about the orthopedic vet was because the person responding to me said vets didn’t do thorough examinations.


Please show me where I indicated an Orthopedic specialist was not capable of rendering an diagnosis.



LJack said:


> *Pet vets* are not doing a very thorough examination of hips and eyes (Or elbows or hearts). So, while it is a good thing that there is nothing severe enough to be impacting your dog’s health, breeding dogs should have had certifications by the *appropriate veterinary specialists* at the appropriate ages. This breeder is not doing that.
> 
> *If your dog has had health checks beyond the well check*, we would be thrilled to see a link to OFA that shows at least a dog they produced has full and verifiable health certifications when not a single dog listed on their website does not.


I am not trying to create straw man arguments or miscaraterize what you are saying. I would appreciate if you would extend me the same courtesy.

There is a standard of responsible breeding, they are not following it. If that is okay with you, great. I am not debating your choices.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

hkjohnson13 said:


> Funny you should mention Hunter, and I’m glad you did, because he just happens to be the Sire to all 3 of my dogs. With you being such “a huge advocate for informed consumers,” it should make you happy to hear that that is exactly what I happen to be.
> When looking into purchasing a puppy, I asked for physical copies of Hunter’s cardiac and eye exams which were given to me without hesitation (and I still have). Hunters hips/elbows are rated as good so looking any further into his parents is really irrelevant. Correct me If I’m wrong, but checking heart and eyes is a fairly new practice. Again to my understanding, some vets still only check hips and elbows and many still don’t yet have the technology (especially in more rural areas) to submit things to OFA. This is why it should be up to consumers to ask for these documents (being informed consumers and all). Also many of the LCG sires and dams are from foreign countries (as is the Dam to one of my females.) All of these imports have the proper clearances from their countries of origin. Just ask them for the documents, they have no problem providing them. Why should we be putting these dogs under more stress and anesthesia to run the same tests over again? I think this is a question more “informed consumers” should be asking! In America, sadly we have become brainwashed into believing over testing and over vaccinating is what’s appropriate for our companions. I don’t think it’s any secret that that is probably one of the main reasons our dogs just don’t live as long as those in most other countries that don’t put their dogs through such strenuous/stressful predicaments over and over. We can do better and I solute LCG for doing their part in what they believe is best for the health and well being of their family pets which just so happen to be Sires and Dams to amazing puppies!


If you have copies of the health certificates, would you be willing to share them here?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

hkjohnson13 said:


> @LJack we can agree to disagree, you think they haven’t performed proper testing/certification....while I have proof they have.


Yes, I can see you disagree and as I have repeatedly said that is your personal decision to do so. I am not disputing your right to choose a breeder not following the standards. You don’t even have to care about them. Others might though.

I am not making up the standards and have posted not only links to the standards but also proof these dogs don’t have appropriate health certifications. You say you have proof they do but so far have not provided it. So, okay let’s set aside the OFA online component. Provide the proof that the sire had a Cardiologist heart exam form and a current eye exam for for your most recent puppy.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

mylissyk said:


> If you have copies of the health certificates, would you be willing to share them here?


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

LJack said:


> Yes, I can see you disagree and as I have repeatedly said that is your personal decision to do so. I am not disputing your right to choose a breeder not following the standards. You don’t even have to care about them. Others might though.
> 
> I am not making up the standards and have posted not only links to the standards but also proof these dogs don’t have appropriate health certifications. You say you have proof they do but so far have not provided it. So, okay let’s set aside the OFA online component. Provide the proof that the sire had a Cardiologist heart exam form and a current eye exam for for your most recent puppy.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

hkjohnson13 said:


> View attachment 872562


I will have to go through my records tomorrow to find the eye exam as it’s been close to a year since I got my most recent puppy and have to find it, but it’s there


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Okay, that is not an OFA Cardiac exam form. Do you think that looks like an all clear heart exam?


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

LJack said:


> Okay, that is not an OFA Cardiac exam form. Do you think that looks like an all clear heart exam?


I do not, nor do I care to know.
As I previously stated I don’t care about this OFA organization. His heart was evaluated and deemed normal from a cardiologist at UW, and that is more than enough for me. I’m sure they likely have the OFA form you’re requesting, I just never cared to ask for that much detail. Are you saying a cardiologist doesn’t know how to do their job?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Okay, I did double check Hunter. Per the website, they state that he has cardiac and eyes. However, clicking on the link for cardiac and eyes, it is linked to a different dog. This dog is "Just Fisher". Could be an error on their part, could not be, who knows. However, I feel it is a pretty serious error. 

Finally, on Hunter's OFA link, it links to another completely different dog called "Ranger's Paw Patrol". 

According to k9 Data, Fisher was a dog owner by these breeders. Maybe they still own him, but he is not listed as a sire on the website. According to OFA, this sire has produced at least one offspring with hip dysplasia. This dog is Prangley's Hana Banana. What is worse however, is that this sire has produced two dogs with elbow dysplasia: VS Faith is Mountain Fishing and VS Hailey's a Fishing.

Finally, this dogs has two full siblings with hip dysplasia, one "borderline" and the other "mild". The borderline dog also has elbow dysplasia. This dog also has two half siblings with elbow dysplasia. 

According to K9 Data, Fisher was bred to a dog named Chelan's River of Dreams, which is also owned by your breeder. Chelan is out of Hunter. Chelan's dam, Liberty's River of Justice II, has no OFA clearances. I think part of the reason this dog was never tested, was that the dam of this dog, Denzil's Golden Oh Maya, was bred with hip dysplasia. On top of that, the sire, Denzil's Loveshack Ryder, also produced dogs with hip dysplasia.

I am so so happy for you. I am happy you have healthy wonderful dogs. That does not take away from the fact that I found this information from the breeder's own website. This is readily accessible. Not only do we know that some of the dogs are not fully health tested, until you or the breeder proves otherwise. But that this breeder has bred dogs without testing that come from actual dysplastic dogs.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> Okay, I did double check Hunter. Per the website, they state that he has cardiac and eyes. However, clicking on the link for cardiac and eyes, it is linked to a different dog. This dog is "Just Fisher". Could be an error on their part, could not be, who knows. However, I feel it is a pretty serious error.
> 
> Finally, on Hunter's OFA link, it links to another completely different dog called "Ranger's Paw Patrol".
> 
> ...


Thank you for bringing that up as I’m sure it is an innocent error and I will let them know! I’ve personally found a lot of breeders websites are really hard to navigate, so any way we can help any of them improve is great!
I actually know they no longer have Fisher. Even though Fishers hips were rated as excellent through Penn Hip and OFA they decided to no longer breed him. I know this because I was in the market when they still had him, and I was interested in one of his puppies, but he was no longer siering (I think I just made that word up lol)
Thank you for being happy for me as I truly love my girls more than anyone could imagine! They are truly my children, as I likely can’t have any human ones. I’ve spoken to the breeder recently about all this and she has assured me all the updated data was sent in to OFA in late February, but because of Covid-19 they aren’t processing anything right now. Hopefully according to all of your standards they are trying to “do better” by reporting more regularly and this will ease your minds that they have always had the health tests done, just haven’t been the greatest at reporting  still don’t think it’s grounds to deem them “unethical”


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

hkjohnson13 said:


> I do not, nor do I care to know.
> As I previously stated I don’t care about this OFA organization. His heart was evaluated and deemed normal from a cardiologist at UW, and that is more than enough for me. I’m sure they likely have the OFA form you’re requesting, I just never cared to ask for that much detail. Are you saying a cardiologist doesn’t know how to do their job?


What I am saying is I have never seen a breeder try to present this type of documentation as “clearance”

I am used to this if it is not up on OFA.








As you can see the form is much more detailed. I includes the dogs registration name, registration number, the scanned and confirmed microchip number. It is more thorough and it is very clear that the result is normal.

I have no idea on that form you provided and I did not want to assume so I asked. You may have contacted the Cardioligist and asked for clarification on the “Soft ejection sound noted over the carotid artery” notation. I have no idea what that means. If the exam was on the OFA form, we would know. As it sits I don’t know. Also, was this Cardiologist evaluating with this being a breeding dog in mind? I don’t know. Again if it was on the OFA form we would know.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

By the way though OFA is affected by COVID and processing slower, they are still doing pretty good. I sent an eye exam in the 18th of April and it was up as of Friday the first of May.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

Why do you deem this OFA as god? Do you work for them or have some sort of affiliation? Since when does an evaluation done by a licensed cardiologist mean nothing? If we were speaking in terms of humans, that would be insanity. That we should all have to report all of our health to one centrialized processing unit for special verification that’s already been performed by a specialist in the field. Madness. I get it, it’s all a money making business for these organizations, but I honestly feel bad for the breeders being nickeled and dimed for all of this. One form of proof is more than enough for me.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

hkjohnson13 said:


> Thank you for bringing that up as I’m sure it is an innocent error and I will let them know! I’ve personally found a lot of breeders websites are really hard to navigate, so any way we can help any of them improve is great!
> I actually know they no longer have Fisher. Even though Fishers hips were rated as excellent through Penn Hip and OFA they decided to no longer breed him. I know this because I was in the market when they still had him, and I was interested in one of his puppies, but he was no longer siering (I think I just made that word up lol)
> Thank you for being happy for me as I truly love my girls more than anyone could imagine! They are truly my children, as I likely can’t have any human ones. I’ve spoken to the breeder recently about all this and she has assured me all the updated data was sent in to OFA in late February, but because of Covid-19 they aren’t processing anything right now. Hopefully according to all of your standards they are trying to “do better” by reporting more regularly and this will ease your minds that they have always had the health tests done, just haven’t been the greatest at reporting  still don’t think it’s grounds to deem them “unethical”


Thank you! I’m getting ready to send my own dog’s stuff in 😅 I’m worried about it getting lost in the mail.

I do want the best for you and your breeder and I truly do look forward to all the updated information. What is clear to me is that this breeder truly does make puppy buyers feel included and important and that is an important part of breeding as well. I think it’s important that the breeders here do have people do defend them, and puppy buyers that defend them so whole heartedly is a great sign. Encouraging updated OFA work will make everyone’s life so much better


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you! I’m getting ready to send my own dog’s stuff in 😅 I’m worried about it getting lost in the mail.
> 
> I do want the best for you and your breeder and I truly do look forward to all the updated information. What is clear to me is that this breeder truly does make puppy buyers feel included and important and that is an important part of breeding as well. I think it’s important that the breeders here do have people do defend them, and puppy buyers that defend them so whole heartedly is a great sign. Encouraging updated OFA work will make everyone’s life so much better


I agree! I think everyone is just doing the best they can! And while I’m sure OFA is doing all they can, everyone right now is struggling to keep up, and while some may see things process right away, for others it will take months. Just like with unemployment claims currently 💁🏼‍♀️🙁 weird times we are living in! 
I appreciate your kindness 💗 we need more of that in this wild world!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

hkjohnson13 said:


> Why do you deem this OFA as god? Do you work for them or have some sort of affiliation? Since when does an evaluation done by a licensed cardiologist mean nothing? If we were speaking in terms of humans, that would be insanity. That we should all have to report all of our health to one centrialized processing unit for special verification that’s already been performed by a specialist in the field. Madness. I get it, it’s all a money making business for these organizations, but I honestly feel bad for the breeders being nickeled and dimed for all of this. One form of proof is more than enough for me.


People are not dogs so that is a false equivalence. No, I don’t have any affiliation with OFA other than using them to complete health certifications for my dogs.

Why are you against them? Why make excuses for a breeder who is not following the standards?

You wanted to rake me over the coals for holding them to the standard. I said fine if you don’t care that it is online show me an OFA cardiologist form, you could not. I don’t know really what to call that form. I read it and don’t see a clear Normal finding. I see a notation of “Soft ejection sound noted over the carotid artery”. I don’t know what that means but my expectaction for a normal heart is that there would be no findings. I would have to consult with the Cardiologist because there is a question here.

This whole issue could have been avoided if the breeder chose to follow the standard. It would be clear right online for everyone to see what the result was. Instead, we are in this spiral where regardless of the information and evidence provided, you are deeply set in your opinion that this is enough.

What am saying is this is not a Certification. I don’t even know what the status means for a breeding dog and unless you consulted with the cardiologist you don’t either.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

hkjohnson13 said:


> I get it, it’s all a money making business for these organizations, but I honestly feel bad for the breeders being nickeled and dimed for all of this.


OFA is a not for profit.


https://www.ofa.org/about/history


They are dedicated to improving the health of animals with dogs as the main focus but they do cats too. They are funding amazing research that benefits all animal owners in addition to maintaining the public verification database that responsible breeders use to track and hopefully reduce incidences of specific diseases which vary by breed.

I think that is a pretty awesome goal and am glad they are there for us.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

LJack said:


> OFA is a not for profit.
> 
> 
> https://www.ofa.org/about/history
> ...


That’s amazing and one thing we can agree on. I am all for any organization there to support animals. One thing that is very clear to me is that your definition of Ethics as a fellow breeder is just very different from mine as a consumer. Even though these organizations like the OFA exist, I don’t see it to be 100% necessary that it should be the sole basis to determine weather one is Ethical or not. There is so much more that goes into that determinitaion in my mind. When did we become a society that can’t trust documentation of tests/procedures preformed by veterinarians /specialists in their field? It seems a bit disrespectful to their profession, and those who spent years and years in veterinary school. I as a consumer choose to focus on that. The facts. That regardless if their tests have been entered into some special database, they have indeed been documented and performed.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

hkjohnson13 said:


> One thing that is very clear to me is that your definition of Ethics as a fellow breeder is just very different from mine as a consumer. Even though these organizations like the OFA exist, I don’t see it to be 100% necessary that it should be the sole basis to determine weather one is Ethical or not.


Aside from the fact that the OP for this thread did, indeed, refer to the breeder-in-question as "pretty unethical", I believe you have identified the point of contention in the follow-on discussion about ethics, OFA certifications, etc.

My perspective is that there are two working interpretations of "ethical" in play. The first is the "more widely used" interpretation, having to do with moral principles and the general character of people. The second is more narrowly defined, let's refer to this working interpretation as ethical-per-GRCA-guidelines.

The GRCA has a very discrete set of guidelines set out in their Code of Ethics. Part of that applies to breeders of golden retrievers in the USofA. And, those guidelines specifically call out OFA certifications as the GRCA-accepted mechanism for establishing the condition of hips/elbows for dogs that are going to be bred. The GRCA also calls out specific organizations for the eyes and heart. So, there's not much wiggle room. If a person is going to breed golden retrievers in the USofA (irrespective of where the dogs come from), and that person is going to abide by the GRCA Code of Ethics, then the GRCA guidance needs to be adhered to.

Does not adhering to the GRCA guidance make a person amoral, or unethical (using the first working interpretation)? Of course not. Leastways, not automatically, any more than adhering to the GRCA guidance automatically makes a person moral or ethical.

So, why is it "a big deal"?

I've been up to the Lake Chelan area. It's beautiful, and it's way different than many other parts of our country. I suspect that there is a greater sense of community and "people know people" in the Chelan/Leavenworth area. Sadly, that's not true across the entirety of our country. Wish it was.

As a consumer, the OFA certifications and GRCA guidance are shortcuts in scenarios where it's not feasible to get to know all the breeders well enough to make character-based decisions that are driven by close, personal knowledge of the breeder, or of the person who is recommending that breeder to me. So, the OFA/GRCA information is akin to a U/L sticker on an appliance. Is it a guarantee that the appliance is suited to my purpose? Nope. Is it a guarantee that the appliance is not going to fail? Nope. But, it does mean that certain minimum standards have been adhered to.

That's all. I cannot change/undo the OP's comments. Without personal knowledge of the situation, I am in no position to take a side, either way. I'm glad you've had a great experience, even happier that your goldens are healthy. And, you have every right to share your positive experience. But, not everyone shares your experience. Based on the posts, at least one-or-two have had negative experiences. And, conversely, they should also be able to share their experience. The vast majority of us, as you have correctly pointed out, have had zero first-hand experiences with this breeder. (Starting to sound like "Yelp", no?). So, based on the lack of first-hand experience, the GRCA/OFA guidance is the best, most universally applicable benchmark available to the rest of us (or, leastways, "me"). Nothing more. Nothing less.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

It is truly amazing how much time and patience is spent trying to explain clearances, OFA and the GRCA code of ethics to puppy buyers in threads exactly like this. It happens over and over and over again. This is not the first thread, it won't be the last. Time and patience spent on people hellbent on defending breeders who are NOT on the up-and-up with regard to clearances. It is exhausting. They've bought one puppy and think they understand it all...meanwhile being patently incorrect...and argue with highly regarded breeders on this board who have decades of experience. If "WE ALL" are telling you something --- maybe it's because there's a whole lot of truth to it --- what I can tell you is, there is no "bashing" of other breeders out of jealousy....that is absolutely ludicrous although we hear it ALL THE TIME ----- trust me, experienced breeders producing titled, health tested dogs have ZERO TROUBLE selling puppies --- they don't need to compete -- and they certainly don't need to compete with people breeding know-nothing pedigrees and skimping on clearances. It's like suggesting Maserati is jealous of Greasy Corner Used Car Dealer. Ummmm....no. We are stewards of the breed, and want the best for ALL goldens and their owners. Promoting responsible breeding is #1 on the list of stewardship. When we know better, we do better...we're trying to educate, so next time, you'll do better.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SoCalEngr said:


> Aside from the fact that the OP for this thread did, indeed, refer to the breeder-in-question as "pretty unethical", I believe you have identified the point of contention in the follow-on discussion about ethics, OFA certifications, etc.
> 
> My perspective is that there are two working interpretations of "ethical" in play. The first is the "more widely used" interpretation, having to do with moral principles and the general character of people. The second is more narrowly defined, let's refer to this working interpretation as ethical-per-GRCA-guidelines.
> 
> ...


Nicely outlined-
I will add to this, that GRCA's CoE is a best practices method. OFA is the only searchable online database so they are the only game in town. Their fee for verifying what we send in and listing it is super cheap. And in all reality when we endeavor to put up a website, offer living creatures for sale, and sell those puppies to people who believe we have clearances (which they all know we ought to have even if they don't know how we get them) then we had best have them! And paying that small fee to make a person feel easy on spending a huge amount of money on an animal they hope to keep as a family member for a really long time is nothing in the grand scheme. Every clearance in the Code is there for a great reason. GRs have cardiac issues. Use a cardiologist. That's bare minimum! It's cheap, too- like, $50 or so. GRs have eye issues- get eyes cleared yearly. That too is cheap. I've got an eye clinic @ my house in a couple weeks and it's $30. Add to that the $8 I will pay OFA and what a bargain!Plus I have the assurance my dogs are not developing a blinding disorder as GRs are apt to do. Hips and elbows only need to be done one time- but GRs have ortho issues. Who wants to risk a puppy with ED behind it? Who wants to watch a dog in pain and pay the associated vet costs? Not a person who wants a safer bet. We do not need first hand experiences with any breeder to know whether they follow best practices. At least 50 times a year we uncover a blatant lie on a breeder's site but one would have to speak that foreign language to know it is a lie. I think there were two this week alone! Puppy people should not have to navigate this without expert advice imo. That's what we provide here.
Ethical - to the point served here- means 'does the right thing for the breed, the buyer and the animals' and that means following the Code.


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

I am happy that there are so many ethical breeders here going to bat for what you believe is right. We all know there are way too many people back yard breeding, even if only once, that will openly admit they preform zero tests...and they don’t care. I am happy that there are organizations like the OFA that seem to really care and fight for what’s right within this industry and make it easier for some potential buyers to navigate (although upon some personal conversations as of late, I’m not sure any puppy buyer I’ve come across would even know what the OFA is, what it does, or what it stands for.) Maybe that’s the bigger issue here, is that this non-profit needs to be more in the public eye to really be meaningful and valid to customers. Maybe this could be part of the reason some breeders are having the proper testing preformed so that it can be provided directly to customers when asked for, but they don’t feel it to be necessary to report it to the OFA because outside of the breeding community it’s not something widely known about? Of course I have no proof of this to be definitively true, but I could see it making sense to some people/breeders. Let’s also not forget that doing all the proper tests is not a 100% safety net. Genetics are a tricky little sucker. I have studied this in great depth for my Biology degree focused on animal biology. I don’t care how amazing of a breeder you are, there is never going to be a 100% guarantee that none of the puppies you produce will end up with any type of issues. I find that forums like these are more likely to have opinions from the couple customers who very sadly have had poor experiences rather than the hundreds who have had great ones. All in all, I have learned some meaningful things from this forum for which I am grateful. I’m always open to being more knowledgeable on topics I otherwise didn’t know about. Let’s all please remember we are all here for the right reasons, and that is because we care deeply about our golden retriever companions! I’m happy I found myself here and was able to share a bit of my side of this story so that if anyone else comes across this forum it isn’t so one sided. People can draw their own conclusions based on their own set of morals and ethics with a more rounded set of details regarding the original post. 
I truly am a very kind person with a huge heart, which is why I will go to bat for people when I think they are deserving. I appreciate the knowledge you all have given me here. I’m still 100% satisfied with my decision to purchase not one, but 3 goldens from LCG and would do it all over again in a heart beat. Shoot, I may even have all my girls tested for all these things just for fun when they come of age, even though we won’t be breeding as they will all be spayed (2 are, ones not old enough/hasn’t had a heat cycle yet 😜)


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

hkjohnson13 said:


> Shoot, I may even have all my girls tested for all these things just for fun when they come of age, even though we won’t be breeding as they will all be spayed (2 are, ones not old enough/hasn’t had a heat cycle yet 😜)


That is my plan, once our Kona is at least 12 months, but before here second heat cycle. My purpose for getting the testing and then reporting it via OFA is two-fold...

#1 - I want to know. Sort of a "peace of mind" or "know what's coming" thing.
#2 - Since the extra cost is minimal, Kona's test results will be available for "the next round", so that others can see her test results in comparison to her litter mates, mother/father, etc.

Cheers!


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

Hi there,
As you are studying for a degree in Biology, then you're obviously aware of the scientific methods for evaluating data.
You will therefore also be very clear on the difference between an opinion and a fact.
You will also understand that there are many scientific organisations that evaluate, check, certify and publish data and information on many topics - including animal biology.
Your in-depth of knowledge in the study of genetics will also be very useful once you get the results of any genetic testing you choose to do on your GR girls.
It's great that you are happy, and that they are healthy right now. That's good news :0)
Good luck, and let this forum (and OFA) know what you find out from any testing you choose to do?


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## hkjohnson13 (May 3, 2020)

HollyB said:


> Hi there,
> As you are studying for a degree in Biology, then you're obviously aware of the scientific methods for evaluating data.
> You will therefore also be very clear on the difference between an opinion and a fact.
> You will also understand that there are many scientific organisations that evaluate, check, certify and publish data and information on many topics - including animal biology.
> ...


I’m not studying for, I already have my biology degree. Thanks for being happy that my dogs are indeed healthy 💗


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## patti rairden (May 8, 2020)

Every state in the US has a dept of agriculture. Contact them. Contact the attorney general in your state as well. I was told by my vet to stay away from the Amish Breeders in Montgomery and Fulton County. I was shocked at the conditions that were laid out before me that the vets have encountered. Contact your local news media as well.


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## patti rairden (May 8, 2020)

Golden293 said:


> I know of a breeder that is pretty unethical. They breed sick dogs and are away that the puppies they are giving away are predisposed to having major GI issues. Their website only lists a few dogs, but I know they have upwards of 15 breeding dogs. I'm pretty sure they lie about a lot of their clearances. They charge a fortune for their pups and are basically con artists, scamming individuals who think they're getting a great little puppy. They also give away breeding rights really easily, so now many of the dogs in Washington state have these "tainted" lines... and they stud out their sire that has tainted lines, so even people who aren't breeding their puppies are still breeding bad lines.
> 
> Breeders are supposed to preserve and better the breed, and they clearly are not. There is only so much research someone can do on their own while searching for a pup, and this breeder puts on a good show... at some point, you have to assume the people you're talking with are telling you the truth.
> 
> But what can I do?




Contact the USDA asap and your state attorney general


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Golden293 said:


> I know of a breeder that is pretty unethical. They breed sick dogs and are away that the puppies they are giving away are predisposed to having major GI issues. Their website only lists a few dogs, but I know they have upwards of 15 breeding dogs. I'm pretty sure they lie about a lot of their clearances. They charge a fortune for their pups and are basically con artists, scamming individuals who think they're getting a great little puppy. They also give away breeding rights really easily, so now many of the dogs in Washington state have these "tainted" lines... and they stud out their sire that has tainted lines, so even people who aren't breeding their puppies are still breeding bad lines.
> 
> Breeders are supposed to preserve and better the breed, and they clearly are not. There is only so much research someone can do on their own while searching for a pup, and this breeder puts on a good show... at some point, you have to assume the people you're talking with are telling you the truth.
> 
> But what can I do?





patti rairden said:


> Contact the USDA asap and your state attorney general


This post has generated quite a bit of views and responses, and some of the back-and-forth has been emotionally charged. But...

_"I know of a breeder that is pretty unethical."_
_"They breed sick dogs."_
_"are away [editorial: "aware"?] that the puppies they are giving away are predisposed to having major GI issues."_
_"I know they have upwards of 15 breeding dogs."_
_"I'm pretty sure they lie about a lot of their clearances."_
_"They...are basically con artists..."_
_"They stud out their sire that has tainted lines..."_
All of the statements above are concerning, assuming they're true. But, without corroboration of some sort, they're not factual. They are the OP's opinions, presented as facts.

_"They charge a fortune for their pups..."_
_"They give away breeding rights easily..."_
These statements could also be concerning, but suffer the same "opinion presented as fact" characterization. Additionally, assuming these specific statements are factually correct, I'm unsure how this drives to the original argument.

Please understand. I am not saying that the OP is not sincere in their concerns. Neither am I attempting to insinuate that the OP is deliberately lying. However, it is possible for a person to be sincerely and wrong. It's also possible for a person to have a bad experience, and have that experience color the entirety of their perceptions.

I get it. The breeder-in-question does not appear to be following the GRCA's code-of-ethics for all their dogs. I'm a newb, and even I was able to determine that. But, shouldn't that be a concern for the individual consumer? In my own search, it was not difficult to find the back-yard breeder who not only didn't follow the GRCA's code-of-ethics, but effectively demonstrated disdain for those who do.

Bottom line...

The OP's post was emotionally charged, and easy to get behind from a moral standpoint. But, it was also flawed, and, absent substantiation, could be libelous. I'm just asking, wouldn't it be a good idea to take a minute to separate the emotion-for-the-breed from the potential responses?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SoCalEngr said:


> I get it. The breeder-in-question does not appear to be following the GRCA's code-of-ethics for all their dogs. I'm a newb, and even I was able to determine that. But, shouldn't that be a concern for the individual consumer? In my own search, it was not difficult to find the back-yard breeder who not only didn't follow the GRCA's code-of-ethics, but effectively demonstrated disdain for those who do.



To this statement, no imo. It is very difficult for the average puppy buyer to look at what is available on OFA or a website and be able to discern what is missing or less than as safe as can be. So maybe you (clearly an intelligent studier of many things, you have a wonderful way with your words!) can see through the rhetoric and misinformation but most people cannot do this. Emotion- unless one is relaying something that happened to them- has no place. I did not go back 5 pages and re-read the comments, but to that one sentence, I disagree. Most individual consumers need the help.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> It is very difficult for the average puppy buyer to look at what is available on OFA or a website and be able to discern what is missing or less than as safe as can be.


Appreciate your kind words. For what it's worth, I am a product of the information age, and my profession has given me opportunity to hone my Google-foo.

We had been thinking about goldens for more than two years, so I had time to "casually research" the breed, issues, and breeders.

One of my first surprises was that the local Golden Retriever Club did not have a list of "recommended breeders" the complied with the GRCA code-of-ethics. However, their rationale was sound. "Breeder compliance" could change, and the "real concern" was "litter compliance". So, if a breeder submitted paperwork on an upcoming litter, the local club would research the mom/dad and, subject to confirming compliance with GRCA guidelines (and, I'm assuming, other "breeder-type concerns"), the local club would list the litter. Unfortunately, in practical terms this is not helpful to the "average consumer". As others have already pointed out, the line of people for such a litter is already long. The litter which included our Kona would not have been recommended by the local club (an out-of-date eye cert, cardiacs done by practitioner vice cardiologist).

But, this eliminated any "this breeder, that breeder" discussions. The recommendation was strictly on the basis of research done on the mom/dad. For what it's worth, aside from the presumed line of people waiting for such a litter, the very fact that the breeder was confident enough to submit the information for review/verification likely weeded many breeders out of this process.

I'd like to believe that people would be willing/able to do some basic Google and find much of this information themselves. In my experience, the first hit was on the local club (Googling "golden retriever" and my city), which led to the national club, which led to OFAs. Of course, it did require some reading, but I'd estimate that the "initial search and reading" was no more than four (4) to six (6) hours (including informational side trips to run down a specific topic). Sadly, I also recognize that too many want to be spoon fed.

I've perused "Choosing a Golden Retriever Breeder and Puppy", and this is an excellent resource. But, it's buried one layer into the forum. This sub-forum has some excellent stickies, and some of the discussions are exactly the fact-based discussions about litters that I think should be the focus.

Is there a way to highlight this sub-forum (move it to a top level), and emphasize/define it's purpose. It'd be uber-cool to emphasize a "tell us about the sire/dam, and we'll do some basic research for you". Even better (along the give-a-man-teach-a-man paradigm) would be a series of stickies on GRCA code-of-ethics and import, OFA grades and meaning, etc., all with links to sources.With some basic understanding of search engine optimization, it'd even be possible to name the various sticky posts so that they're easily found (e.g., Golden Retriever Buyer's Guide to [topic]).


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

One thing I constantly think on the topic of buying a puppy is that this is a process in which the vast consumer experiences and knowledge is actually a detriment to the buyer. 

I know buyers want it to be, but buying a well bred puppy will likely never be a comparable experience to buying nearly anything else. Honestly the closest thing in my opinion is buying a house and most people do not do that often enough to feel like the expert they do when buying a new phone, furniture, gym membership, or specialty drink.

Responsible preservation breeders are often all about the dogs while being very little about the business. That is generally who they are and when the door is being beaten down by puppy buyers, there is not much incentive for them to change.

This is a huge change in mind set for consumers because let’s face it, we are used to being the star of the show. Search for a new mug and your Facebook feed is full of ads about coffee, tea and mugs. Want to buy a specific product? You can shop several different online retailers or physical locations to get a better deal on the exact same product. Curious about a product or service? You can google and generally find an up to date website optimized for your use. 

Buying a well bred puppy is just not that experience. Sure there are ads on a Facebook and more for breeders, sure there are attractive websites designed to elicit the warm fuzzy shopper feel but those are generally high volume commercial breeds with puppies available at all times. Those high volume breeders are often not going to have health certifications in place and most of time never mention health beyond the generic “healthy puppies” claim.

I think people enter in to the house buying experience with the knowledge houses are not directly comparable, they need to do more research, that they need to find experts to help them form termite inspectors, general house inspectors, title companies, etc. and that they may need to wait if they have needs beyond a place to live now. 

I think this is one of the core issues with shopping for a puppy. Many approach it as buying a new phone without realizing the closest parallel consumer experience-wise is buying a house.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

LJack said:


> One thing I constantly think on the topic of buying a puppy is that this is a process in which the vast consumer experiences and knowledge is actually a detriment to the buyer.
> 
> I know buyers want it to be, but buying a well bred puppy will likely never be a comparable experience to buying nearly anything else. Honestly the closest thing in my opinion is buying a house and most people do not do that often enough to feel like the expert they do when buying a new phone, furniture, gym membership, or specialty drink.
> 
> ...


Its the unfortunate reality of consumer marketing. I was consoling someone the other day who placed a deposit on a Border Collie puppy, only to find out later it was a scam. They had sent pictures of this gold and white dog with blue eyes. OP thought gold border collies were rare and wanted it. Then time past, person stopped replying etc. They showed me the website and wanted to warn other people. The website reads as follows:

"We are one of the first to ever breed Border Collies. We love what we do and have lots of experience to share. We are committed to the research, development and improvement of the Border Collie dog breed. We specialize and strive to produce healthy Companion, Therapy, and Service Dogs with wonderful temperaments. We breed well - adjusted, properly - socialized, sweet, loving Border Collie puppies with low to non-shedding, allergy friendly coats. 

We are very happy with the mark we have made in the Breeding world so far and we are thrilled with the direction of our breeding program. We pride ourselves on providing loving homes and individuals with healthy, AKC registered and pet-degree puppies for Sale. we take pride in providing efficient and personal service, honestly, and reliability. Medical issues such as their shots and other vaccinations have been covered. Deworming has been taken care of, too. You leave with a new pup that's ready to be in his home once you have finished your dealing with us. There is no need to worry about anything else. You're free to enjoy your adopted puppy."

So many buzz words in there that the average person may not even know that no Border Collie anywhere in the world is being bred for anything this scammer was saying they're breeding for. The concept of "its how you raise them" has made it so now everyone thinks that every breed of dog is a good home for them and that its totally normal to say that they're breeding service BCs. I wish there was a better way to educate consumers.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

While you are a great researcher and writer, most people are not. They do not see the nuance on OFA or know the dogs involved ... I'll always research for anyone, as will most people here ...dk what to do about making that more obvious, the mods might can take care of the sticky problem?


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

hkjohnson13 It makes me happy that you are thrilled with your pups. The standard the breeders on the GRF are using is set by the Golden Retriever Club of America to define what is an ethical breeder, it's not personal. No one is throwing stones, just working hard to meet those standards and expressing the desire to see all GR breeders to follow the same code... to meet the standard. 
Please remember this is a public forum and the GRF is about learning. If you have ever had a dog with hip dysplasia and spent thousands of dollars for a hip replacements you want to help people to learn the best way to avoid this. If you have had a pup that suddenly died from SAS (heart condition) you want to help people to avoid having to go through this heartache. You may not find it important to have these clearances posted to OFA but not filing these test results can lead to so many problems. I for one researched breeders, found one that had OFA clearances ... well I quit looking at 1900. But the eye test were out of date on OFA. The breeder showed me the test saying it had been done but not filed... both showed to be normal. Truth is the sire can't get a passing score on an eye exam, cataracts & distichiasis. The dam has uveal cyst... something that can possibly develop into PU causing blindness. I purchased this pup to do obedience work. She is fabulous in every way and would have been a wonderful show prospect for both conformation and obedience, except for the eyes. I knew early on the draining left eye was an issue when I brought her home. At 15 months I drove 3 hrs to a optomologist clinic to have her eyes checked. She failed the exam. My precious girl has distichiasis, cataracts, uveal cyst and geographic retinal dysplasia in that left eye. Her vision is distorted so she cannot see the jumps for obedience... shoot she can't follow a ball when we throw it, she has to listen for it to hit the ground then sniff it out to retrieve. So while you may not care about ethical breeding, lots of people do. The only way for people to learn about what an ethical breeder does is by coming to places like the GRF. 
If you look at it from a pragmatic view... if you are paying a nominal fee for a puppy, why would you want to pay the same amount to get a puppy from a breeder that doesn't meet the GRCA standard. Why not use those dollars to support the breeders that do?
As far as your pups have you ever seen a cardiologist? Ever taken them to have the eyes examined? Had an orthopedic vet xray the hips/elbows? I would hope all these test would be acceptable but before you stubborn yourself to death defending your breeder, have these things tested... then come back and say your pups are healthy.


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## MavriksWorld (Sep 10, 2020)

LJack said:


> Yes, thank you for proving my point that neither of these dogs have full and verifiable health certifications. The mom did at one point. That shows us the the breeder knows how to get full certifications and has access to appropriate veterinary specialists but on all of their dogs (that I have found as of this post) fail to have full and verifiable health certifications.
> 
> There is no good reason for a breeder where this is clearly a Family income source to not pay the $15 recording fee for heart certification or the $12 for the first eye certification and $8 for each additional year certifications. Not saying this is the case but the exam forms are not the certification for a reason. They can and have been altered or produced as complete counterfeits. Sending in to OFA stops that possibility as OFA can compare the research copy send directly from the vet with what ever the breeder is sending to determine if it is a true and accurate copy and from there issues the actual certification.
> 
> ...


Hi LJack, I created an account simply to thank you and the other knowledgeable people on this forum for further reassurance that I made the right decision on forfeiting my deposit with LCG (recently changed their name to Tsillan Goldens). I knew I felt some serious red flags but I couldn’t figure out exactly what they were.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm starting to think this kennel name changing is in an effort to avoid _something._.. 

So Hammon Goldens, Lake Chelan Goldens, then Legacy Champion Goldens and now Tsillan Golden...


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## bunchofbs (Nov 20, 2020)

GoldenSearching said:


> I'm sad to have had a very negative experience with Legacy Champion Goldens. They were unreasonable and frankly greedy regarding my deposit. As a business owner, I fully understand the need to have a no deposit refund policy when holding a puppy for someone-- it would be unfair to lose other customers when someone had a puppy reserved and then changed their mind. In this case, that's not what happened. I'm the first to admit that I jumped the gun putting a deposit down for a puppy before my application was even accepted. These are stressful times, and there are many owners having so much time to train a puppy now because of COVID and fewer breeders breeding.
> So, like a house hunter during a seller's market, I unwisely put my application in, then a day later put a deposit down before knowing the application was even accepted. I was nervous doing this, and asked for a reply as soon as possible since I had questions. After four days of waiting to hear if my application was accepted, and not getting any response at all about anything, I was nervous enough to withdraw my application. Yes, they say on their applications that deposits are not refundable, but I hadn't even been accepted yet or told they were holding a puppy for me. I reasoned that if they weren't willing to give me a refund when they hadn't accepted my application, or even told me they were holding a puppy for me then I wouldn't want to work with them anyway. Buying a puppy is such an important decision that requires trust (in both directions).
> 
> Unfortunately, they not only told me that they wouldn't refund my deposit but also called me fraudulent in saying I didn't receive an item for my payment (a puppy hold) and that I was being an extortionist for giving them the heads up that I felt I needed to share this experience on yelp. Legacy Goldens is out no money and no time working with me. Customers should understand their rights -- just writing "No refund" does not give a company cart blanche in any circumstance. The legal advice I found: "Generally, consumers have a right to a refund when there is a major problem with something they bought. Stores cannot take away this right by claiming they have a 'no refund' policy or displaying a 'no refund' sign. This also applies to an online store's refunds and returns policy."
> ...





Prism Goldens said:


> I'm starting to think this kennel name changing is in an effort to avoid _something._..
> 
> So Hammon Goldens, Lake Chelan Goldens, then Legacy Champion Goldens and now Tsillan Golden...


Exactly......they will have to name change again and again.


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## bunchofbs (Nov 20, 2020)

I love when the karma train comes by to such deserving people


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Regardless of the support these puppy people have supplied, none of them were able to supply correct clearances on the parents of their puppies. I'm glad they are healthy today and hope they stay that way but the record (inadequate though it is) stands for itself and these are risky pedigrees. Those of us who love this breed and will continue to educate buyers on what it is they are not seeing here will always shake our heads at the inadequate knowledge that lets the puppy people who support this sort of breeder keep supporting them. And I expect that new kennel name will change again any day now. It's kinda funny she thinks it will make a difference in her reputation- it won't. Good breeders wouldn't change their name for the world because their reputation is tied to it. Which basically says it all about why she keeps changing hers.


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## Sushihog72 (9 mo ago)

I stumbled across this post as I was searching to find my dog’s breeder. Just wanted to associate this breeders third name change with this posting. They’re now called Tsillan golden retrievers. The fact they have changed the name 3 times should be a red flag. Poor dogs ☹


Golden293 said:


> I know of a breeder that is pretty unethical. They breed sick dogs and are away that the puppies they are giving away are predisposed to having major GI issues. Their website only lists a few dogs, but I know they have upwards of 15 breeding dogs. I'm pretty sure they lie about a lot of their clearances. They charge a fortune for their pups and are basically con artists, scamming individuals who think they're getting a great little puppy. They also give away breeding rights really easily, so now many of the dogs in Washington state have these "tainted" lines... and they stud out their sire that has tainted lines, so even people who aren't breeding their puppies are still breeding bad lines.
> 
> Breeders are supposed to preserve and better the breed, and they clearly are not. There is only so much research someone can do on their own while searching for a pup, and this breeder puts on a good show... at some point, you have to assume the people you're talking with are telling you the truth.
> 
> But what can I do?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Sushihog72 said:


> I stumbled across this post as I was searching to find my dog’s breeder. Just wanted to associate this breeders third name change with this posting. They’re now called Tsillan golden retrievers. The fact they have changed the name 3 times should be a red flag. Poor dogs ☹


For all the puppy seekers out there, it is good to know that no matter what name- Tsillan Goldens, Lake Chelan Goldens, Legacy Champion Golden Retrievers, or Hammon Goldens- this thread is coming up on a google search. Puppy seekers have a difficult time navigating clearances and someone here will always help.


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## MavriksWorld (Sep 10, 2020)

MavriksWorld said:


> Hi LJack, I created an account simply to thank you and the other knowledgeable people on this forum for further reassurance that I made the right decision on forfeiting my deposit with LCG (recently changed their name to Tsillan Goldens). I knew I felt some serious red flags but I couldn’t figure out exactly what they were.


Puppy seekers! PLEASE READ.
I had a deposit with Tsillan Goldens ($750) I was weeks away from getting a puppy and I found this thread…. I trusted my gut and @Prism Goldens and @LJack and forfeited my deposit with her one week before I was supposed to get my Tsillan puppy. I started my search and paid thousands more for a healthy puppy from an ethical responsible breeder. My 13 month old boy has been competing successfully in AKC conformation and has passed his OFA prelims, and has a phenomenal temperament. I have also had phenomenal mentorship from my breeder since he came home. STAY AWAY FROM MEGAN HAMMON!! There are ethical breeders out there and it it’s SO WORTH IT to get a healthy, structurally and temperamentally sound dog.


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## MavriksWorld (Sep 10, 2020)

This came up on the Golden Retrievers of Washington Facebook group and I think it’s important to get this info out there.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

MavriksWorld said:


> This came up on the Golden Retrievers of Washington Facebook group and I think it’s important to get this info out there.


If you can contact this person through Facebook you should have them do a K9Data page for their dog. It will help future puppy buyers.


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## MavriksWorld (Sep 10, 2020)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> If you can contact this person through Facebook you should have them do a K9Data page for their dog. It will help future puppy buyers.


I let her know!


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