# E collar training? Which one to get?



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Bumping up.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Posting a random comment here to draw the attention of all the ecollar fans so they come over here to help. 

My opinion is there needs to be a strong consequence to your dog taking off running to visit. You could have the dog on a long line, set him up with somebody dancing around with their dogs a distance away - and pounce on the long line the instant your dog starts running to go visit and shout, "NO GET BACK HERE". You dog will get a very strong pop correction and learn to listen when you call him back. 

Or go ahead, put an electric collar on your dog and shock his neck when you need to correct him. 

Either way, you need to have a consequence if your dog chooses to ignore you when he's been "trained" to listen.

Cheers.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

Answering quickly because my pup is waiting for some more exercise, so idk if this makes sense but here goes.



GoldenChip said:


> I look at the E collar as a tool in my back pocket. I don’t want to use it on him, but I want to make sure he is 100% safe, and if it is on him and I NEED to use it, then I am able to have that tool readily available.


I would encourage you to think of the e collar a little bit differently — not so much as an “in case” tool but simply as a training tool. In reality it’s great as both, but the latter is critical for addressing your concern, which is solidifying his recall. E collar conditioning to a recall is very simple and there are a few slightly different methodologies which I won’t get into right now, but ultimately you are just looking to enforce what he already knows. Which means you’re providing stimulation with the e collar to enforce behavior more so than using it to provide corrections for bad behavior. The more you train recall with the e collar, the sharper his response will get, and your “almost every time” will become every time. 

As far as brand, I have a Dogtra, but I think most people seem to use the Garmin ones. 




Megora said:


> Posting a random comment here to draw the attention of all the ecollar fans so they come over here to help.
> 
> My opinion is there needs to be a strong consequence to your dog taking off running to visit. You could have the dog on a long line, set him up with somebody dancing around with their dogs a distance away - and pounce on the long line the instant your dog starts running to go visit and shout, "NO GET BACK HERE". You dog will get a very strong pop correction and learn to listen when you call him back.
> 
> ...


Both methods would work well, but I’d rather provide some harmless stimulation (to enforce a trained response - recall) than jump on a long line and jerk his neck while he’s running. Have definitely done both many times though, so no right or wrong. 

It’s 2022 — everything is wireless, why isn’t your leash?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Oceanside said:


> Both methods would work well, but I’d rather provide some harmless stimulation (to enforce a trained response - recall) than jump on a long line and jerk his neck while he’s running. Have definitely done both many times though, so no right or wrong.
> 
> It’s 2022 — everything is wireless, why isn’t your leash?


Obedience training and conditioning from early age (baby puppies following their pack) replaces the need for a leash. <= Which is my case. My Jacks (boy in profile pic) was the last dog to be trained with a long line and I promise that if your timing is spot on, you never have to do another correction with your dog after the first one. Those that followed were conditioned to stay close from early age while off leash.

Somebody else whose dog is over a year old and has run off to visit other dogs, you need a correction to get through to the dog. My opinion.


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

Megora said:


> Obedience training and conditioning from early age (baby puppies following their pack) replaces the need for a leash.


100% agree with this. People always ask my how I got my dog to behave so well off leash — my answer always consists of something like starting from puppyhood (we started at 3 months, I’ll start earlier next time) and training consistently/daily. Didn’t have the benefit of having another dog or a pack this time, but hopefully next time. 



Megora said:


> Somebody else whose dog is over a year old and has run off to visit other dogs, you need a correction to get through to the dog. My opinion.


For dogs where this is a big issue, yeah I wouldn’t disagree. I was originally thinking just generally. This is where I would slowly turn up the intensity on the e collar (constant mode) for every split second where he did not respond to the stimulation from the original recall, to the point where the stimulation overcomes the desire to meet the other dog. Basically fading enforcement into a correction smoothly.

My point on the wireless leash comment - For a single dog, the e collar provides the training and safety of a long line, without the long line. I have no qualms about my dog getting far away when space permits (she knows when I’m allowing that vs. when I want her to stay close vs. when I want her to walk right next to me), but I’ve never seen a 500 foot leash.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I like Connie Cleveland’s e-collar course (not sure if you have to be a member of Obedience Road to purchase that or not) and Robin McFarlane who really encourages the use of continuous low stimulation (feels nothing like a shock - I do it on my own arm) in e-collar training.

I also don’t think any single dog is proof of what may happen with your dog. Train the dog in front of you. I’ve had two Golden Retrievers and their personalities and training style were/are quite different.

I have a Garmin Pro 550 and a Dogtra 200C. I use the Garmin when I’m field training and the Dogtra for off leash time — hiking, running around in meadows, etc. The Pro 550 transmitter is much larger. I prefer the smaller one that came with the Dogtra for most things. I use a flat collar and leash in my neighborhood for walks where there will be cars going by. I prefer to have 100% control over my dog when cars are involved because car vs. dog ends badly. I also really abhor people who have their dogs on e-collars only and allow their dogs to come right up to on leash dogs — both in the neighborhood and when hiking. It’s rude.

Your dog is still in adolescence and they can get defiant or just plain zoned in on what they want at that age. I don’t think anything gives you 100% recall on a dog (you can get real close), but you’re a lot safer with an e-collar on than without one in a highly distracting situation where you have your dog away from you off leash. I played with mine (2.5 years old) in a meadow in the NC mountains just the other day and he got quite a ways away from me. He had on his e-collar and I never touched it once, but it feels better knowing it’s there in case he sees something tempting (bear, wild turkey, fox, coyote, etc.) and doesn’t respond to his recall command. He may. He may not. If he doesn’t, I would stimulate him and if he ignored that, he’d get a bigger stimulation. He’s never had a stimulation I haven’t put on my own arm (4 or 40, depending on the transmitter) and it doesn’t feel like a shock to me. He generally responds to a 2/20 or 3/30. Now, I haven’t tried nearly as high as it goes on my arm, so the tool could be abused. I’m not testing the highest setting on my arm.   When used correctly, an e-collar is a great tool.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Oceanside said:


> My point on the wireless leash comment - For a single dog, the e collar provides the training and safety of a long line, without the long line. I have no qualms about my dog getting far away when space permits (she knows when I’m allowing that vs. when I want her to stay close vs. when I want her to walk right next to me), but I’ve never seen a 500 foot leash.


I bought a 50ft long line and didn’t keep using it for long. Something about lying flat on my back wondering if something was broken made me decide it was too much line.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> I bought a 50ft long line and didn’t keep using it for long. Something about lying flat on my back wondering if something was broken made me decide it was too much line.


I use mine as a tie out in the front area when training obedience out front. Lot easier than dragging a crate out there. My dogs are nuts when waiting their turn.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> I use mine as a tie out in the front area when training obedience out front. Lot easier than dragging a crate out there. My dogs are nuts when waiting their turn.


That’s a good idea. I haven’t thrown mine away. I can definitely be clumsy or absent-minded at times. When I ended up on my back what I did was totally stupid. First, I forgot he had it on, then I was also standing on it (not on purpose), and Logan hit the end of the line because I had thrown a ball. Doy. Lolol

Not one of my finer dog moments.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

I have a Dogtra; would have to go look at the model. Most field trainers use Dogtra or Garmin. Gun Dog Supply has plenty of options. 

Since you're going to be spending a few hundred on the ecollar, throw out another $100 or so for Connie Cleveland's intro course on ecollar training. It covers come, sit, stay, and go to a table but, most importantly, includes a lot of stuff about reward markers and how NOT to use an ecollar. 

Are they cruel? They can certainly be misused, but having a reliable recall will allow your 15 month-old golden to safely get the off-leash exercise he needs. 

I walk my dogs through open farm fields everyday. I don't want them visiting the neighbor dogs or getting on the roads or chasing coyotes. As someone else said, a 500 ft long line is not practical.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

E collars aren't my favorite tool, but they are a good tool. They can be abused, and I've seen first hand people misusing them, making the dog squeal and panic as they attempt to perform every action they can think of to appease the person with the controller. But when used properly it CAN simply be a communication tool that the dog doesn't mind at all. 

So no, I don't think they are cruel to dogs, but people can be. If you will learn to use it correctly, then it's just a tool.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This is how mine get trained. 

Have an obedient older dog who teaches the way of the dog to the pups. And beyond that, will say if you put in the work with your 15 month old right now.... down the road he will help you train the next pup.

(2nd pic always makes me smile, It literally looked like my Bertie taking a protective position over his son).


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Or go ahead, put an electric collar on your dog and shock his neck when you need to correct him.


I do it sometimes just for fun.


Megora said:


> You could have the dog on a long line, set him up with somebody dancing around with their dogs a distance away - and pounce on the long line the instant your dog starts running to go visit and shout, "NO GET BACK HERE". You dog will get a very strong pop correction and learn to listen when you call him back.


Ignore this, it is poor advice and will likely hurt you or your dog, most likely you.

I would recommend one of these collars. I have both, the sport pro has a smaller transmitter. Both transmitters can be paired to the same type of collar receiver.








GARMIN Sport PRO Training Collar Bundle, Black - Chewy.com


Buy Garmin Sport PRO Training Collar Bundle, Black at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




www.chewy.com












Garmin Pro 550 Remote Training Bundle


The Garmin Pro 550 Remote Training Bundle has 21 levels of continuous and momentary stimulation, tone, and vibration for effective training. Shop today! SCHEELS




www.scheels.com





Dogtra also makes good collars.

You most defiantly need to follow a training program. Connie Cleveland's is popular, I don't have it but I should get it.
Mike Lardy is a good resource, there are many.

Keep in mind, Indirect pressure is almost always the best way to correct. You will have to research what that is.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I am still puzzled at how anyone could injure themselves by stepping on a leash. But I suppose if your barefoot it might hurt? Or perhaps you have it around your ankle? Or you weigh less than your dog? Wet grass? Lol

Regardless, collar people have started to offer help which is why I commented at all on this thread. Whatever you do dog must have a consequence for taking off.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

You've gotten good advice on all of the comments above, so I'm not jumping in. I have a Dogtra and a Garmin 550 Pro. I prefer the Garmin simply because it's less complicated. I think for a beginner it is more user friendly. Just my opinion.

Remember that an e-collar only reinforces an already known command. I would recommend teaching a sit whistle and a recall whistle. I live on a farm with lots of open space. It's very comforting in the dark to go out and toot toot toot a whistle and have three dogs come flying to me. It's also nice to blow a single whistle and have all the dogs sit. My 15 week old is starting to put the whistle together with the sit.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> I am still puzzled at how anyone could injure themselves by stepping on a leash. But I suppose if your barefoot it might hurt? Or perhaps you have it around your ankle? Or you weigh less than your dog? Wet grass? Lol
> 
> Regardless, collar people have started to offer help which is why I commented at all on this thread. Whatever you do dog must have a consequence for taking off.


it was a stupid mistake as I stated. How you can do it is long line, fast strong dog, leverage/force win,ripped my feet out from under me like Charlie Brown:Lucy/football. Bam.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> it was a stupid mistake as I stated. How you can do it is long line, fast strong dog, leverage/force win,ripped my feet out from under me like Charlie Brown:Lucy/football. Bam.


That's because you were not prepared or planning on stepping on the leash. You very likely did not have your full weight and forget about bracing. It's basically the equivalent of walking your dog while staring at your cell phone and getting thrown down on your face when that dog sees a squirrel and lunges. It happens.

Stepping on the long line is the same thing as the "make like a tree" method, except there is no yank on your shoulder when the pop happens.

I do not believe the OP wants to use a long line, since he was inquiring about ecollars. I was simply commenting on the purpose of using a long line for training purposes - if you are going to use it at all. Also, I knew my post would draw in the usuals.

Dragging a long line and gradually shortening the lead over time is a method people do not have the patience for - because it does take time, absolutely. But the combination of using a long line and actively training your dog means that your dog will become very good off leash at some point.

The last boy I trained with a long line - he was offleash by the time he was 2-3 years old. He was my hiking buddy and my barn buddy. When I went out into the fields to find my horse, my dog was typically running ahead of me. And any moment I wanted him to come back, I called him and he came. This is the whole purpose of obedience training is whatever tools you use - they are temporary and actively used to train the dog.

If I used an ecollar with my dogs, I would use them in the same fashion - my hesitation on that end, is that if I correct my dog, I want to be able to stop him and bring him back. So you may need a long line anyway while training your dog while using an ecollar. My assumption based on how I train my dogs. Any correction needs reinforcement and follow through. Otherwise, the dog will learn to ignore the correction.

It might be good for anyone interested in using an ecollar.... to have people sitting down and walking them through the steps of training their dog to be off leash using an ecollar by providing their personal experience and methods. I would do just that if it were something I use with my dogs. Help people learn to train their dogs with your personal how tos, that you learned and believe in.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Because I'm feeling nostalgic this week, here is one more picture. 

This was my last boy who between puppyhood and about 2 years old... he was on a long line, then 6 foot lead... and then just a collar... and then no collar. Was not in a rush to get him completely off leash, because once they learn to go running and play the keep away game, it's very difficult to break that.

This was the grand-daddy (not actually grandad) of my boys today. He helped raise their dad and was there briefly for one of my babies (who reminds me the most of Jacks) to imprint on him much of his sweetness and smarts. <B


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> I knew my post would draw in the usuals.


Played me like a cheap fiddle once again🤨


Megora said:


> The last boy I trained with a long line - he was offleash by the time he was 2-3 years old.


Basic obedience should not take two or three years.


Megora said:


> It might be good for anyone interested in using an ecollar.... to have people sitting down and walking them through the steps of training their dog to be off leash using an ecollar by providing their personal experience and methods.


Always good to have the help of successful, experienced people.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

GoldenChip said:


> Hi everyone! I have a 15 month old male golden. I do lots of training with him and he knows lots of tricks. I have been focusing a lot on recalls lately and while he does come to me almost every time I call him, I really need to make sure it’s 100% of the time. When we are at an open park playing fetch (not a dog park) I’ll have him on a long 50 foot lead that way I have the most control of him if I need to. He loves to run up to other dogs if he sees them close by. I don’t allow it because I never know for sure if the other dogs are friendly, or the owner wants to be bothered with my dog saying hi. There has been times where he has slipped past me with a 6 foot leash at the park to run and say hi to other dogs (luckily no problems - but when I say “come” which he clearly knows what it means; he ignores me in excitement of going to say hi to another dog.)
> 
> I have trained this A LOT and he clearly knows what it means, but is choosing to ignore me which has led me to believe I should start doing some e-collar training to get the most obedience out of him and having him fully listening to me. While he is really doing amazing for his training I want to really master and perfect the off leash training. I love playing fetch with him off leash and also love hiking off leash. But the most important thing is that I need to ensure the safety of my dog. I look at the E collar as a tool in my back pocket. I don’t want to use it on him, but I want to make sure he is 100% safe, and if it is on him and I NEED to use it, then I am able to have that tool readily available.
> 
> Would love to hear peoples thoughts about E collars, E collar training, do you think they are cruel for dogs or? And also which ones you recommend! Thanks!


E-collars are useful tools. You need to find someone who can teach you how to use it properly and help collar condition him. It's more than just nicking a dog. 

It's not a question if he knows what a recall means...chances are he does. The problem is that he thinks he gets a choice. I'm going to do as I always do and recommend obedience class. You should only have to call once in normal situations.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Always good to have the help of successful, experienced people.


And if that's you - then help. 

Don't sell a collar or another person's training program. Help the OP by giving personal feedback. 

The types of people who don't think obedience should take 2-3 years are the same people who are ruining dog ownership for everyone because they are cutting corners and taking risks. It's untrained dogs being turned loose to run up to other people and their dogs or children. Which leads to local or state laws being passed penalizing anyone whose dog is offleash, even those under control. 

I know of people who had highly trained dogs working high level obedience off leash - and still got a ticket for having a dog (under complete control) off leash. 

All the crappy dogs ending up in shelters every year were made crappy by their owners who cut corners because they felt obedience training shouldn't take 2-3 years.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Megora said:


> That's because you were not prepared or planning on stepping on the leash. You very likely did not have your full weight and forget about bracing. It's basically the equivalent of walking your dog while staring at your cell phone and getting thrown down on your face when that dog sees a squirrel and lunges. It happens.
> 
> ....
> 
> The last boy I trained with a long line - he was offleash by the time he was 2-3 years old. He was my hiking buddy and my barn buddy. When I went out into the fields to find my horse, my dog was typically running ahead of me. And any moment I wanted him to come back, I called him and he came. This is the whole purpose of obedience training is whatever tools you use - they are temporary and actively used to train the dog.


This is an excellent way to be seriously injured or to seriously injure your dog. I don't know about your dog, but if I stepped on a long line with my young beast in a head-down, dead run, even if I managed to stay upright, my dog would somersault and slam into the ground, ending up with possible limb or spine injuries. It's fine to step on the leash of a slow-moving dog, especially one in a house or a small back yard. In the open, where the dog can get up a full head of steam, this would be very dangerous to both handler and dog. 

The time in the their lives when dogs most need to RUN to burn off youthful energy is between the ages of 6 months and 3 years. Two to three years before they are trained well enough to be allowed off leash?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> This is an excellent way to be seriously injured or to seriously injure your dog. I don't know about your dog, but if I stepped on a long line with my young beast in a head-down, dead run, even if I managed to stay upright, my dog would somersault and slam into the ground, ending up with possible limb or spine injuries. It's fine to step on the leash of a slow-moving dog, especially one in a house or a small back yard. In the open, where the dog can get up a full head of steam, this would be very dangerous to both handler and dog.
> 
> The time in the their lives when dogs most need to RUN to burn off youthful energy is between the ages of 6 months and 3 years. Two to three years before they are trained well enough to be allowed off leash?


Believe me, the dogs and people are unlikely to get injured in this fashion. Most of the time it is one correction and that is it for the rest of the dog's life. As opposed to the dog running up to another dog and being mauled to death, shot by the owner of the other dog, or running into the street and having all his bones broken when hit by a car.

Should add, I know of no dogs whose spines were injured by a pop correction. I know of a handful of dogs personally who had major injuries to their spine or acls when retrieving or playing with other dogs.

If you are not going to use the leash or long line to correct the dog.... why have the dog DRAG the leash to begin with? Take the leash off, turn them loose and turn your back and speak poetry to the clouds LOL. It's the same thing if you are not going step on that leash if the dog's head goes up and you know he's about to split. I'm asking people to use common sense.

What ever you decide to do with your dogs - either TRAIN THEM or keep them permanently on leash.

There are NO SHORTCUTS to success.

I am sure you understand this, but you need to make it clear to anyone else out there that they are not going to strap an ecollar on a young dog and miraculously have a dog that never runs off on them. It takes time and training. And knowledge and consistency on the owner's part.

Very often dog classes become sales people for different tools that they recommend will fix all problems in a short amount of time (ie weeks instead of months or years). Because they have people who have already spent a fortune buying a dog from a breeder and who only want to do dog classes while the pups are cute and fluffy and everyone's happy to turn them loose after class to play together. Because they have people who down the road will just hire somebody to come to their house and "Fix" their dog in 1-5 visits. Similar to e-fencing companies coming to the owner's house and training the dogs to stay on the property. There is no concept of keeping people in classes for a good portion of the development stages of a dog's life (through age 2 at least) - which is a shame, because majority of people now have dogs they can't take anywhere or can't do things with. Obedience clubs have failed pet owners in this way - and it's something that really bothers me when it comes to threads like this one or others where other people instead of giving advice on how to train the darn dogs, are selling collars or jumping into the conversation only to argue with other people, completely ignoring the OP's question! It's crazy and sad.


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## GoldenChip (Apr 27, 2021)

Oceanside said:


> Answering quickly because my pup is waiting for some more exercise, so idk if this makes sense but here goes.
> 
> 
> I would encourage you to think of the e collar a little bit differently — not so much as an “in case” tool but simply as a training tool. In reality it’s great as both, but the latter is critical for addressing your concern, which is solidifying his recall. E collar conditioning to a recall is very simple and there are a few slightly different methodologies which I won’t get into right now, but ultimately you are just looking to enforce what he already knows. Which means you’re providing stimulation with the e collar to enforce behavior more so than using it to provide corrections for bad behavior. The more you train recall with the e collar, the sharper his response will get, and your “almost every time” will become every time.
> ...


Thanks for the reply! I feel like you couldn’t have said it better. I plan to use it as a training tool - to reinforce what he already knows like you said. Thanks a lot. I ended up picking up a mini educator e collar


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Don't sell a collar or another person's training program. Help the OP by giving personal feedback.


The OP ask for recommendations on E collars. I and a few others offered advice.


Megora said:


> The types of people who don't think obedience should take 2-3 years are the same people who are ruining dog ownership for everyone because they are cutting corners and taking risks


Or maybe they just know how to train dogs? Obedience, like all training, continues throughout a dogs life. Taking two or three years to teach basic obedience indicates a problem with the training method, the dog, the trainer Or all of the above.


Megora said:


> All the crappy dogs ending up in shelters every year were made crappy by their owners who cut corners because they felt obedience training shouldn't take 2-3 years.


Could you please cite your sources for this information?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Or maybe they just know how to train dogs? Obedience, like all training, continues throughout a dogs life. Taking two or three years to teach basic obedience indicates a problem with the training method, the dog, the trainer Or all of the above.


What are you even talking about? Do you know?

If your point is that you can use an ecollar on a temporary basis to train your dog not to take off running, and you can take that collar off and never use it again.... good for you. You have done better with your ecollar than I did using a leash with my Jacks (can't include my dogs since him because primarily learned how to be offleash from him)

Let's both put our adult dogs out in a field with bunnies and deer running. Completely naked dogs, no collars, no control thingies in your hand.... and let's see what happens.

If your dog is 100% obedient in those situations after a very temporary (less than 2-3 years or whatnot), then it means that you have done quite well.

Anyone else here using ecollars and saying it's all you need to have a dog get to be completely off leash.... prove it. Take the collars off, take your dog in a park where there's people, dogs, wild animals, etc.... and test what you have trained.

If you have results - that means you used the collar correctly and actually trained the dang dogs. If not and you have a 2-3 year old who needs to either be on leash or have an ecollar on to keep him from running, what does that mean?

ETA - little secret here. I don't care if people use ecollars if that's what they want to do. Just expect them to be honest and open about how they use the collars to train the dogs. If they were, perhaps we'd have fewer people buying ecollars off Amazon and expecting their dogs to be off leash in a couple days. 

Cheers.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> That's because you were not prepared or planning on stepping on the leash. You very likely did not have your full weight and forget about bracing. It's basically the equivalent of walking your dog while staring at your cell phone and getting thrown down on your face when that dog sees a squirrel and lunges. It happens.


Well, yeah — that’s why I said it was a stupid accident. If I was paying attention I would have remembered he was still attached and certainly wouldn’t have been standing casually on it, throwing a ball far, and yelling fetch. Lolol

My point was, for me, 50 feet is too much long line. It was awkward, got in the way, got caught on things, and so on.



> Dragging a long line and gradually shortening the lead over time is a method people do not have the patience for - because it does take time, absolutely. But the combination of using a long line and actively training your dog means that your dog will become very good off leash at some point.


I feel like there’s an assumption here that people who opt to use e-collars as a training tool have not used long lines for training recall. I did. I certainly don’t feel like I opted to use an e-collar due to a lack of patience or due to any skimping on training time. I really enjoy training Logan.



> If I used an ecollar with my dogs, I would use them in the same fashion - my hesitation on that end, is that if I correct my dog, I want to be able to stop him and bring him back. So you may need a long line anyway while training your dog while using an ecollar. My assumption based on how I train my dogs. Any correction needs reinforcement and follow through. Otherwise, the dog will learn to ignore the correction.


Lines are used in the beginning when e-collar conditioning. 



> It might be good for anyone interested in using an ecollar.... to have people sitting down and walking them through the steps of training their dog to be off leash using an ecollar by providing their personal experience and methods. I would do just that if it were something I use with my dogs. Help people learn to train their dogs with your personal how tos, that you learned and believe in.


Logan was e-collar conditioned at Dog Trainer’s Workshop and then I worked with the trainer so I would understand how to use it properly. She was very experienced and it’s why I sought her out. It’s a wonderful tool.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

These controversial topic threads usually start out being informative and then somehow turn into pissing contests for some reason. Makes for interesting reading I guess......sort of like a bad novel you can't put down or the low budget horror flick you can't stop watching 'cause you just gotta see what happens next.....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> My point was, for me, 50 feet is too much long line. It was awkward, got in the way, got caught on things, and so on.


Don't ever take up tracking.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> it's something that really bothers me when it comes to threads like this one or others where other people instead of giving advice on how to train the darn dogs, are selling collars or jumping into the conversation only to argue with other people, completely ignoring the OP's question! It's crazy and sad.


I know, it drives me nuts too.
From post #1


GoldenChip said:


> Would love to hear peoples thoughts about E collars, E collar training, do you think they are cruel for dogs or? And also which ones you recommend! Thanks!


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Believe me, the dogs and people are unlikely to get injured in this fashion. Most of the time it is one correction and that is it for the rest of the dog's life. As opposed to the dog running up to another dog and being mauled to death, shot by the owner of the other dog, or running into the street and having all his bones broken when hit by a car.


I don’t understand why you think this? There is a lot of force going on when a dog is running hard on a lead. I very well can see where one could get a neck injury if they are slamming into a long line while wearing a flat collar. That’s different from a leash correction. Much more force. We were on a hard surface when I made my stupid mistake. It ended up being slick enough to move me as opposed to injuring him. I’m glad neither of us got injured, but would have preferred it have been me than him since I was the one making the stupid mistake.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

FurdogDad said:


> These controversial topic threads usually start out being informative and then somehow turn into pissing contests for some reason. Makes for interesting reading I guess......sort of like a bad novel you can't put down or the low budget horror flick you can't stop watching 'cause you just gotta see what happens next.....


Life’s been happening here lately. I just sat down with a Prosecco and should have popped popcorn. Lol


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Don't ever take up tracking.


How much rope would I need for that?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> I don’t understand why you think this? There is a lot of force going on when a dog is running hard on a lead. I very well can see where one could get a neck injury if they are slamming into a long line while wearing a flat collar. That’s different from a leash correction. Much more force. We were on a hard surface when I made my stupid mistake. It ended up being slick enough to move me as opposed to injuring him. I’m glad neither of us got injured, but would have preferred it have been me than him since I was the one making the stupid mistake.


Has your dog ever been on a tie out? And have they tried running ahead and popped themselves before realizing they were attached to something? 

Has your dog suffered a neck injury from this? 

Do you know anyone who used a tie out with their dog who ended up having a dog suffer an injury? 

I'm actually pretty curious where this train of thought has come from.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

SRW said:


> How much rope would I need for that?


50 feet? Lol


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> 50 feet? Lol


Depends on whether it's a short track or a long track I guess.....no, wait! That's racing.....I get all these different sports mixed up......


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Has your dog ever been on a tie out? And have they tried running ahead and popped themselves before realizing they were attached to something?
> 
> Has your dog suffered a neck injury from this?
> 
> ...


No. I haven’t used a tie out. I have no need for one. 

It simply seems like hard jerks on a dog’s neck could cause injury to structures in the general area — or a spinal issue.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> I feel like there’s an assumption here that people who opt to use e-collars as a training tool have not used long lines for training recall. I did. I certainly don’t feel like I opted to use an e-collar due to a lack of patience or due to any skimping on training time. I really enjoy training Logan.


I believe it probably reverts back to my comment that the OP needs to use a long line to correct their dog the next time he tries to run off to meet people or dogs.... or get an ecollar and use that to correct the dog. 

This led to people like Kelly and yourself posting comments criticizing the use of long lines to correct the dog. Because stepping on a leash risks great injury to an owner and the dog's neck.

I believe. 

Which led to the crazy old guy on this thread stating that with an ecollar, you can achieve greater results faster than somebody using a leash to train the dog and that any training methods that take a couple years are not as good.

Which is why I was curious and asking the question of him if he knows what he actually was saying there. 

Results from using a leash to train a dog for the first couple years of his life and gradually weaning off the long line to short lead to just collar to no collar required..... means being able to take the dog somewhere off leash without concern of him taking off running. And retiring the long line by age 2, and never using it again.

The person on this thread essentially said you can get the same results from a shorter period of using an ecollar and getting to a point well prior to age two, where your dog can go anywhere and be off leash on hikes. I assume it means that after a couple months, 6 months, a year... give or take, the ecollar can be packed away in a box and never used again since the dog is trained to the same level as a dog leash trained for a couple years.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> No. I haven’t used a tie out. I have no need for one.
> 
> It simply seems like hard jerks on a dog’s neck could cause injury to structures in the general area — or a spinal issue.


Again, if you are afraid of this happening.... do not put a long line on your dog. Or leash. Or collar.....

Because if you will not step on a leash or hang onto a leash to stop a dog from lunging after something.... what is the point of having it on the dog? 

Only time I saw somebody get injured when trying to pounce on a leash of a dog running away... it happened in our yard with one of our neighbors chasing their crazy dog. The dog paused to sniff a spot and the owner physically lunged through the air with her hands out to grab the leash. To grab the leash with her hands! She landed in some sharp rocky/ice which had of hurt really bad on her elbows and arms and she still didn't catch her dog who took off running again. <= My position is never let your dog know that kind of freedom, because it's going to take a little more mustard on your corrections to get him to stop taking off running next time.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Again, if you are afraid of this happening.... do not put a long line on your dog. Or leash. Or collar.....
> 
> Because if you will not step on a leash or hang onto a leash to stop a dog from lunging after something.... what is the point of having it on the dog?


A dog can hit the end of a long line much harder than he can a leash.

I’ve stepped on a leash early on in his training if he got too excited wanting to meet & greet to prevent him from doing it. I’ve never stepped on a long line except that one time I did. 

With a long line, I’ve used it to encourage him to come early on. I was told to drop it before a dog bangs into the end of one.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> 50 feet? Lol


Seriously though - you need to have a harness and 50 ft long line when doing tracking classes.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> With a long line, I’ve used it to encourage him to come early on. I was told to drop it before a dog bangs into the end of one.


Drop it and let him keep running away????? Crazy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

FurdogDad said:


> These controversial topic threads usually start out being informative and then somehow turn into pissing contests for some reason. Makes for interesting reading I guess......sort of like a bad novel you can't put down or the low budget horror flick you can't stop watching 'cause you just gotta see what happens next.....


Nope, it's more like one of those formulaic novels where you literally know what will happen next because some people are humorously predictable in their responses.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Drop it and let him keep running away????? Crazy.


No. Lol I used one when Logan was younger and I could get to it. 

I can’t even remember what I was trying to do with the 50ft line, but that was later (he was still young, but big enough to move me) and not a good choice.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Seriously though - you need to have a harness and 50 ft long line when doing tracking classes.


I’ve not taken any, but the harness makes sense. I took Logan to nose work class for one session and hated it. Tracking sounds more interesting, but our plate is full. I wonder if the preferred length of line varies for tracking…


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> I can’t even remember what I was trying to do with the 50ft line, but that was later (he was still young, but big enough to move me) and not a good choice.


Obviously a very bad choice if you were not allowed to grab or step on it for fear of... breaking or injuring your dog's neck.......????.... if the dog is full length away and ready to run.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> I’ve not taken any, but the harness makes sense. I took Logan to nose work class for one session and hated it. Tracking sounds more interesting, but our plate is full. I wonder if the preferred length of line varies for tracking…


When I did it, instructor required a very long line because the dog goes far ahead and you are not guiding or leading the dog at all.

It is a lot of fun. I don't take the classes anymore because the darn tests are always on Sunday mornings and I cannot do Sunday mornings. But a lot of what I learned from them - I've taught all my dogs and used. Things like teaching my dogs to find each other - has been HUGELY useful when we are out in a big hilly field surrounded by heavy overbrush and trees... or places like that. 

Nosework as well - I think is very interesting to watch the tests and would like to try at some point. My dogs breeder has done it with her corgis and looks like fun.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Obviously a very bad choice if you were not allowed to grab or step on it for fear of... breaking or injuring your dog's neck.......????.... if the dog is full length away and ready to run.


The bad choice comment was me making a joke about the time I bit it and landed on my back because of a dumb mistake. It was the first and only time I used a 50ft line. There was no allowing or not allowing going on because I was by myself (other than Logan.)


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Let's both put our adult dogs out in a field with bunnies and deer running. Completely naked dogs, no collars, no control thingies in your hand.... and let's see what happens.


To be fair, dogs that do hunt and field work are specifically trained to stay at a heel when they see other animals and such running about. It's a core piece of training because if they "break" (take off without being released), they fail a hunt test or field trial. Most of them are pretty darn steady even as early as 6 months. And if you didn't know this, you cannot use e collars in tests/competitions, nor can you use choke chains, pinch or prong collars, generally the dog must be wearing only a flat collar and in fact, usually you cannot even use a leash or touch the dog. The dog must be completely under control without being touched. You will also be in big trouble if you do anything that is even remotely viewed as "intimidating" your dog. That can even include things like snapping your fingers or leaning over them in an intimidating way. Judges want to see a happy dog and willing cooperation, not fear based obedience. 

So what I'm saying is, hunting dogs aren't trained in some terrible harsh way, which sometimes seems like what you might think. Perhaps my perception there is wrong, but I wanted to be honest and say it does seem like you think that at times. There are for sure people out there that that misuse e collars, I've seen it, but those people are jerks and not representative of the hunting/field community.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Let's both put our adult dogs out in a field with bunnies and deer running. Completely naked dogs, no collars, no control thingies in your hand.... and let's see what happens.


I'm game, is Lily eligible? She is only 15 months old.
FYI, that is par for the course many days in field training and a good share of the time I let may dogs out the front door of my house.


Megora said:


> Anyone else here using ecollars and saying it's all you need to have a dog get to be completely off leash


Nobody that knows how to train a dog says that.
If there is any "one thing" you need to train a dog it is the ability to communicate. Sounds simple but it is not.


Megora said:


> Just expect them to be honest and open about how they use the collars to train the dogs.


You don't train (or punish) with and e collar, you reinforce taught behavior and correct disobedient behavior.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Hildae said:


> generally the dog must be wearing only a flat collar


No collar at all allowed when running a field trial. 
The only training equipment allowed at the line is a whistle.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> What are you even talking about? Do you know?


Yes, I know. 
Have you ever been to a field trial? If so, did you understand what you saw?


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

SRW said:


> No collar at all allowed when running a field trial.
> The only training equipment allowed at the line is a whistle.


True I was including hunt tests which allow for a flat collar even though you cannot touch it. I just wanted Megora to understand that no one is standing at the line with an e collar or really anything at all.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> So what I'm saying is, hunting dogs aren't trained in some terrible harsh way, which sometimes seems like what you might think. Perhaps my perception there is wrong, but I wanted to be honest and say it does seem like you think that at times. There are for sure people out there that that misuse e collars, I've seen it, but those people are jerks and not representative of the hunting/field community.


Again, I have many friends who do field work with their dogs. Golden people, more so people who own labs and FCR's.  I know the dogs need to be off leash and are not allowed to wear corrective collars (including ecollars) during tests and trials, but that does not always come across during these completely ridiculous ecollar threads. Because I see some of the commentators as being careless and more interested in arguing for ecollars, that they do not do enough to criticize incorrect use of the ecollars, which we all know happens when regular randos buy the collars to train their dog without taking any classes or anything. 

There have been a number of comments here or elsewhere, where people have essentially stated that ecollars mean freedom for their dogs. And from the sounds of it, they fully intend to keep using those ecollars going forward. <= To me, that's something to raise an eyebrow at, but whatever. 

But again, the thing that concerns me is that comment you made on the first page - which is one that I have seen. It's not people here who train their dogs and obviously love them who are cruel to their dogs. But they are overly aggressive in selling ecollars as the miracle tool.... to people who through ignorance may be cruel to their dogs. 

I have seen at least 3 people get more worked up about the possibility of a dog getting a pop correction on a long line, then they are at the possibility of somebody putting a collar on the dog and carrying on without any training. This is how many of us who absolutely defend the ability of dog trainers to have a fully loaded toolbox, including ecollars and prongs, feel like they are getting stabbed in the heart to see a dog spinning and screaming in pain while the owner is holding down the button. 

I don't necessarily believe that the OP in this thread is the type to do that... but what about other people? People who don't even post a single comment or ask any questions.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

SRW said:


> No collar at all allowed when running a field trial.
> The only training equipment allowed at the line is a whistle.


No collar at all after Junior Hunt. You, your dog, and your whistle starting at Senior Hunt. You also have to honor the working dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> I'm game, is Lily eligible? She is only 15 months old.
> FYI, that is par for the course many days in field training and a good share of the time I let may dogs out the front door of my house.


Sweetie, you were talking about basic obedience.

And I assume this extends to your dogs, of course, Diane's dog, Kelly's dogs, and anyone else.

If comparing the use of ecollars to leash training alone, are you saying you no longer use an ecollar when taking your dog out off leash anywhere?

Because I can say my Jacks never needed a leash by age 2 which was due to regular obedience training + all the competition obedience stuff (the babies I have now grew up with full off leash privileges without any need for leash training).

That's the stark comparison that you were making in your comments - which I asked if you seriously knew what you were saying.

Hildae graciously provided you with an out with her comment, and that is fine. But just pointing out that the context of your comments was comparing basic obedience. And by that same token, you were saying the OP on this thread will not have to use an ecollar very long to achieve results.

Like - you were essentially saying that Diane's golden or Kelly's goldens no longer need an ecollar when out in the woods or countryside - because with an ecollar training, each has already been trained to the same degree that my dog had been just using leash training and regular obedience training.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Just as an FYI, I’m not interested in the upcoming competition of whose dog is the best trained. 

And that’s not me insulting Logan. I realize some trainers here are much better and more experienced. 

I’ve not thought about when I won’t use an e-collar on Logan when we are in situations where I now use one. I think in an off leash hiking or up in the mountains around bears situation, I will continue to use one.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

diane0905 said:


> Just as an FYI, I’m not interested in the upcoming competition of whose dog is the best trained.


I am! I’d enjoy watching Jake and Lily. I’m thinking I could get some tips. Lol


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Again, I have many friends who do field work with their dogs. Golden people, more so people who own labs and FCR's.  I know the dogs need to be off leash and are not allowed to wear corrective collars (including ecollars) during tests and trials,* but that does not always come across during these completely ridiculous ecollar threads.* Because I see some of the commentators as being careless and more interested in arguing for ecollars, that they do not do enough to criticize incorrect use of the ecollars, which we all know happens when regular randos buy the collars to train their dog without taking any classes or anything.


That is why I wanted to clarify that they aren't used all the time and aren't allowed in competition, for those who don't know. 



Megora said:


> But again, the thing that concerns me is that comment you made on the first page - which is one that I have seen. It's not people here who train their dogs and obviously love them who are cruel to their dogs. But they are overly aggressive in selling ecollars as the miracle tool.... to people who through ignorance may be cruel to their dogs.
> 
> I have seen at least 3 people get more worked up about the possibility of a dog getting a pop correction on a long line, then they are at the possibility of somebody putting a collar on the dog and carrying on without any training. This is how many of us who absolutely defend the ability of dog trainers to have a fully loaded toolbox, including ecollars and prongs, feel like they are *getting stabbed in the heart to see a dog spinning and screaming in pain while the owner is holding down the button. *


Those people represent no one other than jerks. 



Megora said:


> I don't necessarily believe that the OP in this thread is the type to do that... *but what about other people? People who don't even post a single comment or ask any questions.*


That is why these threads can potentially help, if they see people explaining how to use an e collar correctly, or find recommendations for resource on how to learn to use it. 

For what it's worth, I own an e collar and it goes from 1 to 100 in levels. I can put it at 100 and shock myself and it's not what I'd call painful. I refused to put it on my dog until I was experienced with what the levels felt like on me first. I will not do anything that is harmful to my dog. Nothing is worth hurting them.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I am! I’d enjoy watching Jake and Lily. I’m thinking I could get some tips. Lol


I meant not interested in participating.  

I would love to be an observer. Haha


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> If comparing the use of ecollars to leash training alone, *are you saying you no longer use an ecollar when taking your dog out off leash anywhere?*


I can say that about my dog, yes. The e collar is only used during active training exercises, not in day to day life.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> For what it's worth, I own an e collar and it goes from 1 to 100 in levels. I can put it at 100 and shock myself and it's not what I'd call painful. I refused to put it on my dog until I was experienced with what the levels felt like on me first. I will not do anything that is harmful to my dog. Nothing is worth hurting them.


Random question - can you put it around the neck and do the same? 

I've always wondered when I see people bragging about zapping themselves. LOL.

The one time I got zapped, it was when I was walking a neighbor's dog back home after he'd run through their I/F. I had taken the dog's collar off and was just carrying in my right hand while hanging onto the buckle collar (from my dogs since the dog just had the shock collar on) with my left hand. If I'd been thinking, I would have thrown the collar into the yard vs carrying it across the line, but I was focused on getting the dog home and pretty furious at the owners. The shock went up my arm and through me. It was worse than touching the electric wire at the horse farm. Oh, and the dog heard the beep from the collar and reacted by thrashing and then biting my hand.  

That shock made me understand what that other dog felt while spinning in pain and screaming while his owner electrocuted him. I've shared my horrified reaction to this many times and I can't say enough that it was worse than physically getting hurt myself. And I don't even like that stupid dog (same dog ran through wire and attacked my Bertie and bit me in the past).


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> No collar at all after Junior Hunt. You, your dog, and your whistle starting at Senior Hunt. You also have to honor the working dog.


Yes I should have mentioned honoring as well, since it's literally making a dog sit and watch another dog doing something the honoring dog would love to be doing but they must sit respectfully with their owner and watch.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Random question - can you put it around the neck and do the same?
> 
> I've always wondered when I see people bragging about zapping themselves. LOL.


 That is where I tested it. Fair is fair in my book. 

I'm not bragging, just explaining that I tested it before using it.




Megora said:


> The one time I got zapped, it was when I was walking a neighbor's dog back home after he'd run through their I/F. I had taken the dog's collar off and was just carrying in my right hand while hanging onto the buckle collar (from my dogs since the dog just had the shock collar on) with my left hand. If I'd been thinking, I would have thrown the collar into the yard vs carrying it across the line, but I was focused on getting the dog home and pretty furious at the owners. The shock went up my arm and through me. It was worse than touching the electric wire at the horse farm. Oh, and the dog heard the beep from the collar and reacted by thrashing and then biting my hand.


I can't speak for those invisible fences, I've never felt one and I don't think they are comparable to a normal e collar. I can tell you that no e collar I've ever felt is even close to a horse fence. I got zapped by a horse fence (if I'm honest, more than once) in the hand and it took 24 hours to get feeling back in the finger that touched it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> That is where I tested it. Fair is fair in my book.
> 
> I'm not bragging, just explaining that I tested it before using it.
> 
> ...


Must be quite different because I felt that zap shooting through me and my arm felt wonky


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Must be quite different because I felt that zap shooting through me and my arm felt wonky


THAT sounds like a horse fence. Since I/F is a fence product, it would not surprise me if it were stronger than an e collar. An e collar is just a tap to say do/don't do that, where a fence is meant to save a dog's life and keep it out of traffic etc, so I suspect much stronger.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Have you ever been to physical therapy? I’ve also put my e-collar on the back side of my wrist and gone all the way through the highest level I would use on a dog. It feels like a TENS Unit from PT at the highest level I’d ever use, and I’ve never used that level.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Have you ever been to physical therapy? I’ve also put my e-collar on the back side of my wrist and gone all the way through the highest level I would use on a dog. It feels like a TENS Unit from PT at the highest level I’d ever use, and I’ve never used that level.


That’s exactly what it feels like to me. A TENS unit was used on me when I injured my back. It doesn’t hurt.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

diane0905 said:


> That’s exactly what it feels like to me. A TENS unit was used on me when I injured my back. It doesn’t hurt.


I've used a tens unit and they definitely can be made to be painful, where even the highest level on the e collar is not really painful, it's a "discomfort" at most.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> THAT sounds like a horse fence. Since I/F is a fence product, it would not surprise me if it were stronger than an e collar. An e collar is just a tap to say do/don't do that, where a fence is meant to save a dog's life and keep it out of traffic etc, so I suspect much stronger.


Interesting. 

I wonder why that dog was spinning in tight circles and screaming... if ecollars are mild enough that people are comparing to physical therapy? (I've never had any so I have no idea even what a TENS unit is!!). 

I wonder if people are buying ecollars that are quite different than what you and others are describing here? 

Even the ones that Diane described in an other thread - which was quite similar to what I had observed. 

The thing that confuses quite a bit is on one hand you might say that these ecollars are not necessarily painful even when you put around your own neck - but earlier in this thread you mentioned people who are cruel when using ecollars. And of course, I've seen what I have personally which would indicate that it is painful for the dogs.

It is quite contradictory.

Eh. Doesn't matter long run. This thread has been quite diverting this afternoon - which I needed a good laugh or few today.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Hildae said:


> I've used a tens unit and they definitely can be made to be painful, where even the highest level on the e collar is not really painful, it's a "discomfort" at most.


The chiropractor must not have turned my tens unit up enough for me to feel that way about it.

Y’all tempted me. I just tried it on myself at 100 on the Dogtra. It would definitely get a dog’s attention, but I don’t know that I’d call it painful. I just used the “Nick” function so it doesn’t last very long. I could see where a dog would yip if someone used the continuous at that high of a level. To me, that would feel painful.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I wonder why that dog was spinning in tight circles and screaming... if ecollars are mild enough that people are comparing to physical therapy? (I've never had any so I have no idea even what a TENS unit is!!).
> 
> ...


I think dogs react that strongly because it isn't a desirable sensation, I'm not saying it feels lovely. It IS a discomfort, and when someone uses it incorrectly and keeps laying into it, the dog starts to panic about making it stop, and much like a hysterical person they escalate their reaction. For example if I walked up to you and pinched you briefly you might jump and say "what the heck are you doing?" But if I walked up to you and pinched you and latched on and you couldn't get away, your reaction would escalate the longer the pinch went on. So, I don't think the squealing and spinning is due to pain as much as panic, but that is still not ok.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

diane0905 said:


> The chiropractor must not have turned my tens unit up enough for me to feel that way about it.


My PT lit me *UP* with that thing once and I flopped right off the table like a fish out of water. Granted she didn't do it on purpose but I won't forget that one.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Hildae said:


> My PT lit me *UP* with that thing once and I flopped right off the table like a fish out of water. Granted she didn't do it on purpose but I won't forget that one.


Sorry. The way you worded it just made me laugh. I’m sure that was no fun.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Hildae said:


> My PT lit me *UP* with that thing once and I flopped right off the table like a fish out of water. Granted she didn't do it on purpose but I won't forget that one.


I’m sorry, but I’m actually laughing at this one. I’ve had multiple surgeries, my last being a disc replacement in my neck. I have an at home TENS unit. My little at home unit could never, ever cause that reaction. I can see how the larger units could.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

It's ok, laugh. It wasn't fun when it happened but it became quite funny after I recovered.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> I think dogs react that strongly because it isn't a desirable sensation, I'm not saying it feels lovely. It IS a discomfort, and when someone uses it incorrectly and keeps laying into it, the dog starts to panic about making it stop, and much like a hysterical person they escalate their reaction. For example if I walked up to you and pinched you briefly you might jump and say "what the heck are you doing?" But if I walked up to you and pinched you and latched on and you couldn't get away, your reaction would escalate the longer the pinch went on. So, I don't think the squealing and spinning is due to pain as much as panic, but that is still not ok.


I personally believe it's pain. 

Pain is what it is. Call it a different name or compare it to a greater pain.... it still is pain.

And I did chuckle a little at your comparison here. First thought was that I would not let you approach me close enough to pinch. And neither would my dogs.

But if you snuck up and pinched me, you would get simultaneously punched in the face with my left hand, slapped across the face with the right hand, and kicked hard in the stomach to push you away. Which I'm sure you would do the same if somebody randomly assaulted you. 

Dogs cant do that when assaulted, of course. So they are left to cower or spin to try to get away from the attack.

^^^ I honestly hate saying any of this, because it's word for word what AR types would say about any corrections, even using the word "no". But I'm saying it honestly because it does bother me when the AR types downplay any negatives about the tools THEY use on dogs or want everyone to use. Good example would be the "gentle" leader. Which fwiw, I think is worse than ecollars, because it's constant discomfort and any corrections or attempts to pull by the dog are whipping the dog's head sideways....


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

I would have to disagree about there being no difference between pain and an uncomfortable sensation, I do think there is quite a difference there.

I will tell you that when we pick up the e collar our dog runs to us and starts wiggling in excitement and happily allows it to be put on. She associates it with training, which she likes a lot because, well, ducks and running and swimming...and the collar is part of that. I do not in anyway believe she would willingly come and happily allow me to put something on her caused her pain or fear.

But again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to use a tool they don't want to use, but I caution anyone who does use it to learn to use it correctly.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> I would have to disagree about there being no difference between pain and an uncomfortable sensation, I do think there is quite a difference there.
> 
> I will tell you that when we pick up the e collar our dog runs to us and starts wiggling in excitement and happily allows it to be put on. She associates it with training, which she likes a lot because, well, ducks and running and swimming...and the collar is part of that. I do not in anyway believe she would willingly come and happily allow me to put something on her caused her pain or fear.
> 
> But again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to use a tool they don't want to use, but I caution anyone who does use it to learn to use it correctly.


It is what it is. 

My guys come running when they see me with my training bag and they go nuts trying to get their heads in the choke chain. 

Obedience choke chain has a bigger chain and typically hangs loose around their necks - so I suppose I get that being not a huge issue.

Show chains for conf are kept tight behind the ears and just behind their jaws - and I mean, there's a way to lock them or they don't loosen. I even know of some handlers who put them on backwards because they will stay tight even with a loose lead. 

Most dogs are super excited when they hear the jingle of the training collars. 

Apparently dogs are.... well, strange. 🤣


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Randomness - 

This I thought was an interesting article and informative for people like me who think ecollar = shock collar. I'm not sure if the collars he's referring to are the same that people here have used or which the OP just bought. What he has to say about how the collars are used for training is actually a lot more helpful than many of the comments we see on this forum over and over and over. 









E-collars are adaptive technology, and we are tired of arguing about it.


Electronic collars (or e-collars) are one of the most maligned tools in dog training, and one of the tools most likely to be referred to as “abusive” by single-quadrant (often referred to as...



www.rufftranslating.com





Fwiw - I found this article because I was literally looking up "are herding dogs trained with ecollars".  I was curious because most people with herding breeds send their dogs out to do all that stuff and I've never heard any mention ecollars. I'm not in that dog community so have no feelers out at all. 

Admittedly, most of the people I have heard about "sending away to herding" are show people who are not fully living in that herding world and the impression is the dogs are tested for instincts and not necessarily doing trials. 

And reason why I was looking this up was because I saw the below video earlier today and was wondering on seeing this right after all the yacking here, if these dogs were trained using ecollars. <= I actually am still wondering, but at least based on the above article and others that I read, the answer is yes. 

Was int'resting.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

They are a versatile tool, invaluable if used appropriately.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> are you saying you no longer use an ecollar when taking your dog out off leash anywhere?


I use e collars for training, I do not put them on every time I take the dogs outside.


Megora said:


> Hildae graciously provided you with an out with her comment


No idea what you are talking about but I am grateful that Hidae has my back.


Megora said:


> you were saying the OP on this thread will not have to use an ecollar very long to achieve results


Not very long, much less than three years.


Megora said:


> Like - you were essentially saying that Diane's golden or Kelly's goldens no longer need an ecollar when out in the woods or countryside - because with an ecollar training, each has already been trained to the same degree that my dog had been just using leash training and regular obedience training.


I essentially made no comment on those dogs.



Megora said:


> his owner electrocuted him


He killed the dog??


Megora said:


> people who are cruel when using ecollars.


Unjustly correcting a dog with any training tool is cruel, and ignorant.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Not very long, much less than three years.


And then you get to retire the ecollar and never use it again? Awesome sauce. 

Then I suppose it is an excellent tool for everyone to use. Use for "not very long" and retire it once the dog is trained to be biddable off leash and trustworthy in various situations. Good job. Inspirational. 

Here's a blurry winking dog as a reward (LOL).


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> And then you get to retire the ecollar and never use it again? Awesome sauce.


I suppose you could if basic obedience was your only goal.

I was thinking, if it takes 2 or 3 years to properly train a dog just to be trusted off leash (no shortcuts) how old are the dogs running in the NARC right now?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> how old are the dogs running in the NARC right now?


Confession -

I had no idea what NARC was..... other than the slang.
🤣🤣🤣🤣

No offense, but I think the topic has run its course. We have gone far from discussing what can be done to train a dog so he gets to enjoy being off leash and running in fields and whatnot.... without the owner losing control of their dog.

My suggestion is train your dog and depending on setbacks that occur, those may cause delays prior to you reaching a point where you can relax and just enjoy the sight of your dogs running free. Any time your dog goes bonzai and runs to meet the world and plays keep away Bob with you, that is a setback to training.

Playtime in fields to me is not the same thing as a dog working. Just like my dogs never work when we are out walking - because that's their time. But you kept mixing the completely separate things (offleash leisure dog time x working dog time) while trying to keep your favorite arguments going. That's your world to live in, I guess.

If we are strictly talking about basic obedience.... with Jacks, his long line was retired by the time he was 2. Never needed it again. The next boy - I'd planned on raising the same way, but discovered that it wasn't necessary right from day one. He was incredibly easy to raise out on the trails and in the fields, off leash and all. His sons were even easier - which amazed me because I was prepared for hell with a new pup and a 12 month old. 

For me - when I train the dogs for basic obedience and trustworthy stuff.... it's all, get it right the first time... and have fun when you can see you can trust your dog to be a good boy. And I've admitted freely, it's a lot easier when you have older dogs to help imprint manners and rules on the babies.

Somebody who is raising one dog at a time and it's just them, they've got a lot of work on their hands. More so if this is their first dog. More so if they are inconsistent and constantly jumping ahead before they check all the boxes each step of the way. It's the tough route.

If you feel the need to argue and dig into all this, that's less about me and more about you.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Confession -
> 
> I had no idea what NARC was..... other than the slang.
> 🤣🤣🤣🤣


National Amateur Retriever Championship


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

diane0905 said:


> Just as an FYI, I’m not interested in the upcoming competition of whose dog is the best trained.
> 
> And that’s not me insulting Logan. I realize some trainers here are much better and more experienced.
> 
> I’ve not thought about when I won’t use an e-collar on Logan when we are in situations where I now use one. I think in an off leash hiking or up in the mountains around bears situation, I will continue to use one.


I wanna sign up!


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## 220856 (7 mo ago)

I'm sure this has been suggested somewhere here, so please forgive me for reiterating. Have you considered a spray collar? We have the old version that includes a beep and have trained our dogs to respond to the beep as a correction, making the "spray" component almost unnecessary. We also use lots of positive reinforcement but found that not all behaviors can be corrected with this because they are inherently rewarding (i.e. counter-surfing for food). We try to keep the remote out of our dog's site so she doesn't associate the beep with us but with the behavior. We've done this with three of our dogs and all have been good girls who love people.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

OMG if all the people who have never used an ecollar and have no intention of ever using an ecollar would have not responded on this thread about ecollars, the post would be one page long.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> OMG if all the people who have never used an ecollar and have no intention of ever using an ecollar would have not responded on this thread about ecollars, the post would be one page long.


On the other hand, if everyone that never will or has used an e collar but knows everything about them had posted just once, the thread would be hundreds of pages long.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

May the people who've never used an e-collar at least be allowed to read the thread? We might learn something....what to do, what not to do.......


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Of course -- but I would encourage you to take opinions for what they are worth...from experience or conjecture...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> OMG if all the people who have never used an ecollar and have no intention of ever using an ecollar would have not responded on this thread about ecollars, the post would be one page long.


It would have been 2 posts long. The first 2.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

K9-Design said:


> Of course -- but I would encourage you to take opinions for what they are worth...from experience or conjecture...


I usually try to consider all perspectives and of course experience does weigh in.


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## 220856 (7 mo ago)

FurdogDad said:


> May the people who've never used an e-collar at least be allowed to read the thread? We might learn something....what to do, what not to do.......





K9-Design said:


> OMG if all the people who have never used an ecollar and have no intention of ever using an ecollar would have not responded on this thread about ecollars, the post would be one page long.


Is this how people usually communicate in this forum? I thought golden retriever owners would be as nice as their dogs--maybe not!


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Karen2001 said:


> Is this how people usually communicate in this forum? I thought golden retriever owners would be as nice as their dogs--maybe not!


No. There are a few people here that aren't always very pleasant but most are really nice.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Karen2001 said:


> Is this how people usually communicate in this forum? I thought golden retriever owners would be as nice as their dogs--maybe not!


Some are very blunt, bordering on rude. My feelings get hurt sometimes.


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## 220856 (7 mo ago)

SRW said:


> Some are very blunt, bordering on rude. My feelings get hurt sometimes.


I'm sorry to hear this.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Karen2001 said:


> I'm sorry to hear this.


Thanks, I needed that.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Karen2001 said:


> Is this how people usually communicate in this forum? I thought golden retriever owners would be as nice as their dogs--maybe not!


It's a worthy question to ask....  

But really, Anney's comment was not directed at you. At all. I take all responsibility for her having to say that at all because time and again I cannot resist poking the hornets nest with some here. It sets them all off piling on and nothing really gets accomplished other than well worn soap boxes, people hating on tools for no reason other than it was suggested as an alternative, and people trying on their dogs ecollars and zapping themselves to prove a point.  

Part of the reason why many are very sensitive about ecollars is it's a big part of their toolbox and speeds things up considerably for them. They highly value this tool. And many in the AR world really hate the tool and elsewhere with many you will see some considerable loony stuff coming from people that would make my half-serious (half completely unserious!) snark appear very tame and actually pro ecollar. 

And I have to say something which obviously is not clear because of the constant barrage from other folks, but I have no issue with somebody like SRW or others using ecollars in their training. I train with people all the time who use ecollars either in obedience competition training or on dogs who do both obedience and field and they are using the collars to keep the dogs from barking in the crates, etc. I've never made any comments to people I see using the collars who clearly know what they are doing. 

My feeling is that any training tool you use - use with full knowledge of what it is, how it works, why it works, etc. That's something that it goes without saying for many on this forum who compete at high levels in field with their dogs and clearly love the heck out of their dogs. 

And just be practical when training your dogs! Don't turn them loose if they aren't trained. Stuff like that.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

SRW said:


> Some are very blunt, bordering on rude. My feelings get hurt sometimes.


I'm sorry, I'll try to do better......


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Karen2001 said:


> I'm sorry to hear this.


You're new here so just so you know, SRW is just pulling your leg. He's a very sarcastic fellow who likes a good joke 🤣


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

We have a Dogtra Edge RT, it works very well for our hunting filed Golden's. 

Over the years the field trainers we have worked with taught us to use a pinch collar to start out our pups for field/ obedience training at 6 months. They off course, had obedience training of some kind since the day they came home. 

At one year we switch them over to an ecollar and continue training with that tool. One basic rule on both of these collars as you never use them to train a dog a new command! You only use them after a pup has already learned the command, then you use the collar pressure to reinforce the command.

For recall, we start the puppy out early in a short hallway in our home using toys and/ treats to encourage/ teach recall. Later we add a flat collar and 6' lead to the mix, and after giving the recall command, we gently use the lead to encourage the youngster to come. We then substitute treats with tons of love, belly rubs, etc. on a successful recall. We continue this process slowly lengthening the recall distance. In a few months we have the dog out to 6' on lead. This should be around 4-6+- months. 

Then we add a pinch collar, again gently tugging on it when the pup is not performing his/her recall on command. A light snap can be done, but nothing more and then only if required. 

As the dog performs well, continue to lengthen the recall distance out to using a 30' lead outdoors. If your earlier work was done well, a slight tug once in a great while, will be all that is required. At any point if the pup is not performing, go back a step or two and work your way back up. Once you have the pup on a 30' lead, and the recall is 100% +- you can do your collar conditioning which you should learn from a trainer or experienced friend. Once that is done, basically teaching the dog that he/she has control over that pressure they feel on their neck. Collar conditioning done properly, teaches the dog that they have control over the pressure, just do what you have been asked to do and it stops...never use high pressure! If the dog jerks, or makes any sound, your pressure is way to high. 

At least this is my opinion based on my experience....


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

Karen2001 said:


> Is this how people usually communicate in this forum? I thought golden retriever owners would be as nice as their dogs--maybe not!


Just for accuracy sake, I was wagging my tail and my tongue was hanging out of the side of my mouth while typing the post you quoted....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

FurdogDad said:


> Just for accuracy sake, I was wagging my tail and my tongue was hanging out of the side of my mouth while typing the post you quoted....


Do you sniff butts when meeting new people?


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

SRW said:


> Do you sniff butts when meeting new people?


No, I have certain low standards I try to live up to......that's just going too far.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

I have been known to beg for food however....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

FurdogDad said:


> No, I have certain low standards I try to live up to......that's just going too far.


Afraid you might like it?


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

SRW said:


> Afraid you might like it?


I'm pretty sure my wife won't like it.......she's got 30 yrs invested in training me so far......


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

FurdogDad said:


> I'm pretty sure my wife won't like it.......she's got 30 yrs invested in training me so far......


With an e collar she could have done it in 3.


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

SRW said:


> With an e collar she could have done it in 3.


Fortunately, she prefers mostly positive reinforcement accompanied by the occasional well deserved tongue lashing......


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## Jasmyne (Dec 28, 2021)

I have no desire to use an ecollar but I would listen to the comments from the people that have experience using them if that is the route you wish to go. 
I often used the go get method. If Emmett ever blew me off by not listening when I knew he heard me I would just go get him and grab his collar make him come to where I was sit and look at me till I released him. At 9 months old he is 99% confidently reliable in any distracted situation. That remaining 1% I say come and he doesn’t listen now I just say “I will come get you” and he turns and comes or I whistle and he looks and I walk the other way and he follows. No matter what had captured his interest if I say no he doesn’t go period. When we are off leash in the forest either alone or packed with other dogs he never goes far and then stops and waits for me to catch up or comes back to check in. He loves hearing good boy and getting a pat on his head then takes off running again. He will greet any other dog happily or ignore them and keep on trucking. If they stop to have a bit of a play he can be mid wrestle and I say “Emmett let’s go” and he will stop and follow.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> It simply seems like hard jerks on a dog’s neck could cause injury to structures in the general area


There are some clips by Joel Beckman that shows a correction technique for dogs that want to run ahead and pull. He’ll let them go, get the leash on the level of the dog and pull back a bit as the dog reaches the end of the rope. Thing is, 1- how suddenly this happens can be controlled and 2- the dog can’t reach full speed over the course of 3’ or so. Just my opinion, but if a dog gets up to speed and is stopped suddenly I don’t see how it can be argued that there isn’t a potential for injury.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Megora said:


> Because if you will not step on a leash or hang onto a leash to stop a dog from lunging after something.... what is the point of having it on the dog?


Lunging after something, even taking off over the length of a standard leash, are totally different scenarios compared to stepping on a long line with the dog bookin’ it after something it wants. It’s a matter of momentum and the conservation of such. Throwing a bullet at you and firing a gun at you only differ in the momentum involved in each situation.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

GoldenChip said:


> Would love to hear peoples thoughts about E collars, E collar training, do you think they are cruel for dogs or? And also which ones you recommend! Thanks!




I've not been here for quite some time so a bit of background on me will help. I've been training dogs for LE (law enforcement), SAR and pets since 1979. I've used just about every tool and methods that exists for this purpose and have settled on the Ecollar as my primary and most useful tool. I use whatever tool/method is the most efficient for what I'm training. 



I think that the Ecollar is the single best tool to use to train a dog, if my methods are used. They vary considerably from what many others are doing and they have a very high success rate. They are easy to teach someone to use and reliable results come very quickly. 



An Ecollar is an inanimate object and as such, they are neither nice nor cruel. This part of the equation is on the trainer. 



I use and recommend the Dogtra and the E‒collar Technologies brands of collars.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Megora said:


> The types of people who don't think obedience should take 2-3 years are the same people who are ruining dog ownership for everyone because they are cutting corners and taking risks.




I'm gonna have to disagree strongly. I do not think it should take _"2-3 years"_ to get a dog to be reliable. Few people are going to be willing to keep their dog on a leash for that long and fewer still are going to be willing to have to chase their dog down every time it's time to leave the dog park and go home.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Megora said:


> If your dog is 100% obedient in those situations after a very temporary (less than 2-3 years or whatnot), then it means that you have done quite well.




It's kinda hard to measure OB at 100%, since you don't know if he's gonna obey the next command, the one that hasn't been given yet. My standard for OB is a dog that will obey any command at 100 yards from the handler, with any distraction present. My own dogs and the ones that I've trained for others will all do this. 





Megora said:


> Anyone else here using ecollars and saying it's all you need to have a dog get to be completely off leash.... prove it. Take the collars off, take your dog in a park where there's people, dogs, wild animals, etc.... and test what you have trained.




Both the LE dogs and the SAR dogs that I've trained are _"tested"_ regularly.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Megora said:


> Seriously though - you need to have a harness and 50 ft long line when doing tracking classes.






diane0905 said:


> I’ve not taken any, but the harness makes sense. I took Logan to nose work class for one session and hated it. Tracking sounds more interesting, but our plate is full. I wonder if the preferred length of line varies for tracking…




While there may be some teaching tracking classes who use a _"50ft long line,"_ in the real world of tracking for LE and SAR, 15 ft and 30 ft lines are much more common.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

SRW said:


> You don't train (or punish) with and e collar, you reinforce taught behavior and correct disobedient behavior.


I use the Ecollar to teach new behaviors, to train the dog to a proficient level, and to test my training.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Hildae said:


> I can say that about my dog, yes. The e collar is only used during active training exercises, not in day to day life.


After a dog's training is complete (keeping in mind my belief that a dog is NEVER done being trained [anytime you are in each other's presence ‒ you are teaching or training, whether you think you are or not]) I think of the Ecollar as insurance. I have insurance on my car, my boat and my house because I can't control everything in life, particularly the actions of others. 

During testing and training my dog's OB may be 100%, but at any time, any dog can make a bad decision. If that involves chasing a cat towards a busy street and you've trained with other tools than the Ecollar, if he doesn't call off the cat, you may be done as soon as a car makes contact. The Ecollar is my version of doggie insurance. It gives me an excellent chance of calling the dog off, even if he's not obeying immediately. 

But that's not the same as NEEDING to have the dog wear the Ecollar so that he obeys. I've had dogs that didn't need a correction for not obeying for 2-3 years. They received them at regular training sessions.


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## Zerpersande (9 mo ago)

Lou Castle said:


> They are easy to teach someone to use and reliable results come very quickly.
> 
> An Ecollar is an inanimate object and as such, they are neither nice nor cruel. This part of the equation is on the trainer.
> 
> I use and recommend the Dogtra and the E‒collar Technologies brands of collars.


I found that my Golden started responding to my ‘Come’ command much faster. And not only did he learn very quickly, he did so without an sign of fear whatsoever. HOWEVER, I did try vibration rather than stim a couple of times and he did NOT like that at all. Ignored the command totally.

is it possible to use an e collar in a cruel manner? Yep. It’s more likely to be used in the wrong manner though, which would likely cause a similar response in the dog. Just like the collar is a tool, being ‘cruel’ depends on the mentality of the person using it, it’s a subjective word. The Purely Positive criwd considers it to be cruel to use it under any circumstances. Others, you and I for a start, do not consider it to be such. 95% or more of it’s use is just at a level that it is ’noticed’. My previous Golden got popped a couple of times when he failed to recall at a distance. He learned. And he gained a freedom that most dogs never get, he was a 99% off-leash dog.

i’m using the EZ-900 Educator. I use two receivers,nsimply forbthe reason that Inwant to know that my dog feels the stim at the lowest level possible. I don’t want his head in a position where contact is lost, especially atbthe very early stage where I am now. He’s working at a 6 right now inside the house. (Out of 125? I don’t know how high it goes. I’ve put it on my neck and I can’t feel it at his working level. Outside with distractions, the couple of times so far, it’s up to as much as 12/13, again something I can’t feel.

My previous Golden would happily come up when he saw me grab the e collar. He knew it was time to go out. And he also knew that he wasn’t going to feel anything bc he knew exactly how to avoid it. They aren’t ‘ cruel’.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)




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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Zerpersande said:


> I found that my Golden started responding to my ‘Come’ command much faster. And not only did he learn very quickly, he did so without an sign of fear whatsoever. HOWEVER, I did try vibration rather than stim a couple of times and he did NOT like that at all. Ignored the command totally.




That's not an unusual response. I find it fairly common among breeds known to be "sensitive." I suggest wrapping the receiver in a bath towel and activating it while holding it near the dog. The towel dulls the vibration intensity and the noise, either of which can upset some dogs. While activating the vibration mode a few feet away from the dog, encourage him to investigate it with "What is that?" said in an inquisitive, excited tone of voice. After he does, I "pet" the dog with the towel‒wrapped receiver. When he's used to the feeling and the noise, slowly unwrap the towel until the bare receiver is being rubbed against the dog. Getting to a naked receiver may take a couple of sessions like this. Then, later on when the recall is being taught, with the vibration as the commend, he won't be afraid of it. 





Zerpersande said:


> is it possible to use an e collar in a cruel manner? Yep. It’s more likely to be used in the wrong manner though, which would likely cause a similar response in the dog. Just like the collar is a tool, being ‘cruel’ depends on the mentality of the person using it, it’s a subjective word.




I think that the essence of teaching with the Ecollar, is showing him how to shut it off. My protocols are set up so that is taught immediately after it's activated. Using continuous, because it's clearer that it's been shut off than with nick or tapping, the stim lasts for about 1-1.5 seconds, during each movement as it's being taught. This is done at the dog's "working level" which I define as the stim level that he first feels in any given working environment. It's also known as "the flea bite level" of discomfort because it's very common for a dog who feels it, to sit and scratch as if he was scratching a flea on his neck. 





Zerpersande said:


> The Purely Positive criwd considers it to be cruel to use it under any circumstances.




People who think that they are using "purely positive" only methods are fooling themselves. They simply ignore it when they use punishment. They pretend it's something else. Some have even invented terms to call it something, other than what it is. It's a fact that it's IMPOSSIBLE to train a dog without using punishment. I've shown many "so called 'pure positive' " trainers that they DO use punishment, when they've disagreed with me. 



Arguing with those folks is an exercise in inequality. They will only discuss their methods when they are used properly. But they will only discuss other methods when they are used improperly. It's virtually impossible to have an apples to apples comparison with them. 





Zerpersande said:


> Others, you and I for a start, do not consider it to be such. 95% or more of it’s use is just at a level that it is ’noticed’. My previous Golden got popped a couple of times when he failed to recall at a distance. He learned. And he gained a freedom that most dogs never get, he was a 99% off-leash dog.




The working dogs that I trained for LE were deployed off leash except during training or crowd control. They're much more effective when they're not physically connected to or restrained by their handlers. 





Zerpersande said:


> i’m using the EZ-900 Educator.




That's my fav Ecollar in that line. 





Zerpersande said:


> I use two receivers,nsimply forbthe reason that Inwant to know that my dog feels the stim at the lowest level possible. I don’t want his head in a position where contact is lost, especially atbthe very early stage where I am now.




I only do this in limited circumstances. Much of my work, especially with LE, is problem solving. If you subscribe to the correction theory of dog training, if a dog knows a movement, but he refuses to do it, either because he's too distracted by the situation or he's too driven, the theory says to increase the level of the correction. In Ecollars this means, "turn the dial up." 



But some dogs, are so highly driven that they won't comply (usually it has to do with releasing a bite on a person) and so their trainer has been at the highest levels that their Ecollar affords before I'm called in. The dog has learned that if he just "powers through the pain," it will stop. Once a dog learns that, and he's able to power through the stim, I have to do something different to get a different result. 



I think that using two receivers tuned to one transmitter, can bring problems. If a dog turns his head such that one receiver loses contact, he's only going to be getting half of the stim that he was getting before 'the other collar' lost contact. He may not feel that and so you've lost the training effect. In other words, If you have the collar (for example) set on 10, he's getting a 10 _ from each collar _ for a cumulative stim level of 20. If he loses contact with one receiver, he's only getting a cumulative stim level of 10, which he may not feel. 



I prefer to simply put the collar on properly so that it's "snug." I've never had a dog turn his head so that it loses contact. 





Zerpersande said:


> He’s working at a 6 right now inside the house. (Out of 125? I don’t know how high it goes. I’ve put it on my neck and I can’t feel it at his working level.




Most people can't feel their dog's working level of stim, particularly levels that are used in low distracting situations. 





Zerpersande said:


> Outside with distractions, the couple of times so far, it’s up to as much as 12/13, again something I can’t feel.




I like to say that "a dog sets his own level of stim." He's the one who decides what he'll need in any situation. I've worked one dog that felt a 1 (out of 127 on a Dogtra unit) and another dog that did not feel anything in the low 60's on that same collar. 





Zerpersande said:


> My previous Golden would happily come up when he saw me grab the e collar. He knew it was time to go out.




That's the experience of most people who use the tool properly. 





Zerpersande said:


> And he also knew that he wasn’t going to feel anything bc he knew exactly how to avoid it. They aren’t ‘ cruel’.




_"[C]ruelty"_ or the lack of it, doesn't exist in inanimate objects. That's made up by people who want to demonize tools they don't like.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Lou Castle said:


> People who think that they are using "purely positive" only methods are fooling themselves. They simply ignore it when they use punishment. They pretend it's something else. Some have even invented terms to call it something, other than what it is. It's a fact that it's IMPOSSIBLE to train a dog without using punishment. I've shown many "so called 'pure positive' " trainers that they DO use punishment, when they've disagreed with me.
> 
> Arguing with those folks is an exercise in inequality. *They will only discuss their methods when they are used properly. But they will only discuss other methods when they are used improperly.* It's virtually impossible to have an apples to apples comparison with them.


Excellent point(s).
Do you like whiffle bats too? 


Lou Castle said:


> I prefer to simply put the collar on properly so that it's "snug." I've never had a dog turn his head so that it loses contact.


One of the most common issues with e collars. Need to be high on the neck, just behind the ears and snug.


Lou Castle said:


> _"[C]ruelty"_ or the lack of it, doesn't exist in inanimate objects. That's made up by people who want to demonize tools they don't like.


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