# Field training question:



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Both. Eventually you will have to correct with the collar in the water. I did force en route on my water pile a la Rick Stawski and it went great. I already have had to use collar pressure in the water for popping on cold blinds and it went off without a hitch. Now currently decheating using a method that relies on "hot land." Trying to keep it very black and white.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

How's this for a non-answer....depends on the dog.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Both, It depends on many factors as to when or why.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think problems stemming from collar use in the water are not because of the collar, or the water itself, but rather the handler not understanding how even a well-conceived correction in the water can impact a dog if it is given at the wrong place or time. For example, going over a point on a blind. Completely predictable that dogs will get up on the point, put their nose down and hunt or otherwise change the course of their direction, rather than driving over the point and re-entering the water on the back side. The common response to this is to stop and cast the dog off the point. Yes, it is valuable to have a dog who will cast off a point and re-enter water, but aren't we feeding into the dog's natural tendency to break down on the point, by stopping him? Next common response is direct pressure via back-nick-back. Problem is, most points are narrow enough, unless your timing is impeccable, that the dog is actually perceiving he is getting corrected for getting near the back-side water. What can we do to change this? Stop and handle before the dog exits the first piece of water. Or, if he breaks down on the point, stop him, call forward into the first piece of water, and handle and/or force back from there to get him out and driving over the point. All are identical actions on the part of the handler, but location and timing around the water and shore are critical to the dog's perception of the situation. 

Another example, not so much of collar use but of handlers being aware of their actions around water. A few weeks ago I was training with a man who's dog was having a big water problem. On blinds it would either no go, or jump in, swim 10 feet and pop. I watched this guy run a series of blinds, the first few the dog did all that weird stuff, was corrected for it, by the last blind it did lovely, dove into the water and swam all the way across the pond. He was so happy with his dog, when it got back he pitched it a happy fun bumper straight into the pond. It landed 10 feet off the shore. The dog happily retrieved it. By jumping in the water and stopping 10 feet off the shore, where it was rewarded with the bumper. OMG. He had NO IDEA he had just REWARDED the dog for doing the exact behavior he'd been trying to fix: jumping in, swimming 10 feet and stopping. All with a fun bumper. Yes, sometimes we can over-analyze things but a lot of times it's inadvertent stuff like this that can sabotage your training.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

K9-Design said:


> I think problems stemming from collar use in the water are not because of the collar, or the water itself, but rather the handler not understanding how even a well-conceived correction in the water can impact a dog if it is given at the wrong place or time. For example, going over a point on a blind. Completely predictable that dogs will get up on the point, put their nose down and hunt or otherwise change the course of their direction, rather than driving over the point and re-entering the water on the back side. The common response to this is to stop and cast the dog off the point. Yes, it is valuable to have a dog who will cast off a point and re-enter water, but aren't we feeding into the dog's natural tendency to break down on the point, by stopping him? Next common response is direct pressure via back-nick-back. Problem is, most points are narrow enough, unless your timing is impeccable, that the dog is actually perceiving he is getting corrected for getting near the back-side water. What can we do to change this? Stop and handle before the dog exits the first piece of water. Or, if he breaks down on the point, stop him, call forward into the first piece of water, and handle and/or force back from there to get him out and driving over the point. All are identical actions on the part of the handler, but location and timing around the water and shore are critical to the dog's perception of the situation.
> 
> Another example, not so much of collar use but of handlers being aware of their actions around water. A few weeks ago I was training with a man who's dog was having a big water problem. On blinds it would either no go, or jump in, swim 10 feet and pop. I watched this guy run a series of blinds, the first few the dog did all that weird stuff, was corrected for it, by the last blind it did lovely, dove into the water and swam all the way across the pond. He was so happy with his dog, when it got back he pitched it a happy fun bumper straight into the pond. It landed 10 feet off the shore. The dog happily retrieved it. By jumping in the water and stopping 10 feet off the shore, where it was rewarded with the bumper. OMG. He had NO IDEA he had just REWARDED the dog for doing the exact behavior he'd been trying to fix: jumping in, swimming 10 feet and stopping. All with a fun bumper. Yes, sometimes we can over-analyze things but a lot of times it's inadvertent stuff like this that can sabotage your training.



ALL OF THIS!!! 

and right now i have the craziest dog on water blinds (my fault) but you have to fight her to get her to get out of water on a point island angle exit all that fun stuff and when i mean fight it become a handling battle where now i just treat every cast i give to get on land is now treated like a cast refusal. so sit come in whistle with a nick back to the spot of the cast refusal then cast again. even after doing that we have no issues of getting of getting back in the water if needed.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> How's this for a non-answer....depends on the dog.


completely agree and also it depends on the level of blind training. The dog would have to have enough blind work on land before one would nick in the water. Would certainly not nick a dog in the water when the dog is just starting to learn doing blinds. And I believe that is where some people come from as far as nicking the dog in the water.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> To nick or not on water?
> 
> There are different schools of thought on this. One is to make the land "hot" so the dog stays in the water and doesn't cheat. The other is nick to create momentum.
> 
> What do you all think?


As others have indicated, you need that tool in your toolbox.
One thing to note is that the level of the correction is extremely important. Frankly, when correcting in the water, I will often back down one level on my TT Flyway Special. For example, a cast refusal on land may merit a "low 3," while a CR in the water may merit a "low 2."
FTGoldens

(FYI, from a field trial perspective: It is the way-old school of thought that trained so land was hot; that was back in the days when there'd be a bird thrown at the far end of the lake and the dog that made that swim was the winner. Nowadays, with new training techniques, the dogs MUST be comfortable getting out of the water...getting them to swim to the end of the pond was/is far simpler.)


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Give your dog thorough Basics, which includes e-collar conditioning. You should then have use of the tool anywhere, land or water.

EvanG


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