# Calling all breeders: Cancer in lines?



## zphantom (Jan 4, 2009)

First of all, I would like to say hello to the forum from MI, I have been a lurker for a while now, learning and observing. My wife and I will be getting a Golden puppy in a few months. We have done a lot of research and have met and talked with breeders in our area. We have chosen a breeder, checked into hips, elbows, eyes, hearts, etc. However I have a question about cancer in the breed. At this point, being not sure of the etiquette of giving the identity of people on a public forum such as this, I will keep everything anonymous for now.

The paternal grandsire of our puppy to be died of cancer at the age of eight. Supposedly, other littermates of the paternal grandsire have also died of cancer. One of his littermates, who is still living at 11, is the maternal granddam of our puppy to be. This means that there is some linebreeding amongst dogs that may carry cancer in their genes. I am not that educated on breeding do's and don'ts, and believe that breeding is a complicated science, maybe even an art.

This brings me to my question: What is the opinion, as I believe there are not too many facts with cancer, of the breeders here on cancer in lines? Do you believe that cancer is hereditary and can be controlled by refusing to breed dogs that have had littermates, sires, and/or dams that have had cancer? Do you believe that having a tight line that is relatively healthy could start producing dogs that probably will get cancer if you were to outcross with a line that has cancer in it? Or do you believe that cancer is a product of environment, exposure, and/or luck?

This dog will be a pet, at most possibly involved in Rally or Obedience, but will be spayed/neutered, and therefore not shown in conformation. As such, excluding hereditary issues (i.e., hips, etc.), I am most concerned with temperament, intelligence, and longevity. I am happy with the breeder so far, but looking to understand more about cancer from people who have more knowledge.

This forum is a wealth of information, and I look forward to the responses and help I will get with this question, and the many others that I will have once our puppy is with us.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Welcome to the forum! I'm sure some of the breeders will see this and give you some great input.


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## Sucker For Gold (Jan 13, 2009)

I am not a breeder, but we have lost our last two dogs (1 German Shepherd - 1 Golden) to hemangiosarcoma. Needless to say this has changed everything about our attitudes towards raising our dog(s). We question EVERYTHING!! Food, vaccines, environment, and genes. Cancer in goldens is simply far to common to ignore any potential cause.

I cannot tell you what the genetic factors are. I have a vet who believes genetics are the only factor causing hemangio. However, because we have lost two dogs of two different breeds to the same cancer, I have have to wonder about all the other factors beyond genetics.

I don't know how much control we have in eliminating the chance of cancer in our dogs. But I know we must try to eliminate any potential causes that we can. In my own personal opinion, I would very quickly eliminate any dog that had history of cancer in it's line. It's just not worth the chance.

I don't know where you live in MI, but if you would be willing to drive to NW PA for a golden, I can give you informaion on an excellent breeder here that could meet your requirements for temperament, intelligence, and longevity, and beauty as a plus. Her lines are relatively cancer free....it was one of our requirements when we picked our new puppy.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Here is an excellent article on cancer in Golden Retrievers by Rhonda Hovan:

http://www.americanwaterspanielclub.org/pdf/Health and Genetics/Understanding_Cancer_at_the_Bree.pdf

In short, there does seem to be a genetic link, at least for some cancers, but we cannot ignore environmental factors either.

In general, I feel that there is a familial tendency to hemangiosarcoma in young dogs (under age 10) but not in things such as breast cancer, which seems to be more impacted by hormones and even age. Age at neutering or spaying also seems to impact life span.


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## zphantom (Jan 4, 2009)

Tahnee GR said:


> Here is an excellent article on cancer in Golden Retrievers by Rhonda Hovan:
> 
> http://www.americanwaterspanielclub.org/pdf/Health and Genetics/Understanding_Cancer_at_the_Bree.pdf
> 
> ...


Thanks for the responses and welcome so far, the above article was informative. Hopefully as time passes we will learn more so we don't have to question these sorts of things.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I think it depends on the other dogs in the pedigree - and *no, I'm not asking who the other dogs are in the pedigree *- without knowing anything more that what you told us one of the maternal grandsires and one of the paternal grandsires (and his littermates) died under 10 due to cancer...that'd be enough to make me dig a little deeper into the pedigree - but not enough to rule out the breeding altogether without the other pieces....A miserable tempered dog that lives to 20 isn't worth that kind of heartache either.

If it helps I lost my Kasei at 8.5 to hemangiosarcoma. All of Kasei's littermates pre-deceased him - many of his half-siblings from the sire also died very young. His mother lived to be 12+ and his father lived to be 15+ and is still producing litters of pupsicles...Personally I won't go to those lines for a dog - but given the popularity of the sire/grandsire, it's not an easy feat to exclude those lines. It's not cut and dry. 

The best advice I can offer is to read Rhonda Hovan's cancer stuff, do your homework on all of the other variables, make an educated decision and then go with your gut. 

Erica


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## zphantom (Jan 4, 2009)

MurphyTeller said:


> I think it depends on the other dogs in the pedigree - and *no, I'm not asking who the other dogs are in the pedigree *- without knowing anything more that what you told us one of the maternal grandsires and one of the paternal grandsires (and his littermates) died under 10 due to cancer...that'd be enough to make me dig a little deeper into the pedigree - but not enough to rule out the breeding altogether without the other pieces....A miserable tempered dog that lives to 20 isn't worth that kind of heartache either.





MurphyTeller said:


> Personally I won't go to those lines for a dog - but given the popularity of the sire/grandsire, it's not an easy feat to exclude those lines. It's not cut and dry.


MurphyTeller, see that is where the trouble is. If I go back three generations on my puppy to be, and you get into some popular dogs, decent amount of outstanding dams and sires. Many of these dogs (especially the sires) are part of the pedigree of most of the dogs in the lower half of Michigan. I have researched a lot of breeders in the area and if you input one of their dogs into k9data, you go up a couple generations and you are into the same popular dogs.

I love the temperament of the dogs I have met (the sire especially is quite a goofball, real fun dog, but smart too), and the clearances all check out. I'm just trying to do as much research as possible. I have looked at many dogs on k9data, some from very highly respected breeders (who I respect highly as well) on here, and if you look hard enough you find dogs that have died of cancer. I would love to know if they consider that a flaw in their line (meaning they would cease breeding from those sires/dams, or siblings) or if they consider that an isolated incident.

In the end, with something like cancer, I think we all roll the dice and hope our dogs "dodge" that bullet, but I want to research to make sure that my theory is correct. I think it is possible for a dog that comes from great lines with great clearances could develop hip dysplasia, but I believe the chances can be greatly reduced by breeding dogs with passing clearances. I am just trying to get a better idea of the effects of cancer in lines, to see how my theory holds up.

I welcome all the information though, as it is all helpful.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

zphantom said:


> and if you look hard enough you find dogs that have died of cancer.


This is true of all goldens - every golden has an ancestor that died too early from cancer...it's like throwing rocks into a pond - if you throw enough rocks you're bound to hit a fish eventually. The problem with goldens as a whole, is that there are a lot of fish in the pond and you're throwing REALLY BIG rocks.

Erica


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The genetic factors causing hemangiosarcoma are not understood at all, and while there's likely to be a strong genetic component there, a single line of dogs simply does not provide a statistically significant sampling, so unless the presence of a single kind of cancer is overwhelming, running away from the line may not be worthwhile.

With hips, elbows, PRA, etc., you can see certifications that those conditions are not present, but since there's no certification for not having cancer, you may be penalizing a breeder who's been very careful to report known CODs for her dogs and favoring a less ethical breeder who is essentially hiding cancer deaths. 

And, the three main cancers that seem to be killing Goldens these days, hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma, and lymphoma, may not even have related genetic factors. We just don't know.

Just my $0.02. Cancer is something we wish so badly that we could control by eliminating something dietary, something genetic, or something environmental, but right now we simply don't understand how the genetic and environmental factors interact, so we need to accept it as a very real possibility when we take stewardship of our dogs' lives, regardless of breed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

PS - My six year old Golden, Gus, died in December of a very rare variety of lymphoma (cutaneous panniculitis-like T-cell). He was the first dog in any of the lines to have died of it, so far as we could tell, and he came from lines with a remarkably low incidences of cancers that early in life.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I am not a breeder but have, over the last 20+ years owned 7 goldens. At the moment we have a 7 year old and a 1 year old. We have lost 4 to cancer. Their ages were 12, 10, 9 1/2 and 11. I did the best I could in providing good nutrition, not over vaccinating and general care but there are no guarantees. I did my homework when looking for breeders but we still suffered through this evil disease. Having said that I would and have continued to have goldens in my life. Each of my four goldens brought more love and joy to me to ever be sorry that I choose them. I wish they could have lived longer but, again, there are no guarantees. Cancer I cannot control but hip, eye, heart and temperment I can. Good luck.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I lost my 8 yr. 9 month old golden girl, KayCee May 25, 2008 to a very, very rare cancer. It was a tumor the size of a softball that had engulfed her appendix and encircled where her large and small intestines join. My vet had never seen a tumor in that area in in vet school nor the 20 years of doing surgey since. Also when the histopath report came back, it was a gastrointestinal stromal tumor--a kind he had never removed before. Wen I googled it it I found it is so rare that only 1 to 3% of all gastric tumors removed from humans are of this kind.

Now as to cancer being in a lines, back in Oct. 2003 KayCee's littermate brother develped autoimmune hemolytic anemia following his ProHeart6 injction (6 month injection to prevent heartworms) and was put in ICU x-rays and ultrasound indicated he also had cancer of the liver.. He died a week after the AIHA diagnosis and my vet wanted to do necropsy as he felt it important to know exactly what kind of cancer Hunter had as "cancer can run in dog families as in human families.) So, necropsy was done, severl sections of his liver, spleen and somache wa sent to the state lab and when the report came back, there was no cancer whatsoever. The damage to his liver was "drug induced necrosis of the liver",. We later found out PH6 had caued a lot of "liver deaths" as well as AIHA deaths. But that was the first time i knew cancer could run in dog families.

I do think that even tho some lines seem to have t more often, i believe over vaccinatin along with the drugs sed for heartworm prevention (we have no choice here in the south, no prevetion, heartworms for sure) and for fleas and ticks is overloading our dogs with chemicals and casing some of the problems.

And i lost my 12 1/2 year old Irish setter to bone cancer back in '97.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

gold4me said:


> I am not a breeder but have, over the last 20+ years owned 7 goldens. At the moment we have a 7 year old and a 1 year old. We have lost 4 to cancer. Their ages were 12, 10, 9 1/2 and 11. I did the best I could in providing good nutrition, not over vaccinating and general care but there are no guarantees. I did my homework when looking for breeders but we still suffered through this evil disease. Having said that I would and have continued to have goldens in my life. Each of my four goldens brought more love and joy to me to ever be sorry that I choose them. I wish they could have lived longer but, again, there are no guarantees. Cancer I cannot control but hip, eye, heart and temperment I can. Good luck.


I'm in this category too- not a breeder but have owned two generations of beloved goldens- 7 of my own and 2 family goldens growing up. All at the rainbow bridge died of cancer, two from hemangiosarcomas. Our oldest golden (Joplin) was 15 and 4 months when we lost him, and our youngest to pass away was Acadia at 9, and her family history showed several dogs including her father going at 8 and 9. I live in fear of cancer. 

One thing my vet is 100 percent sure helps manage risk is to promptly address every kind of chronic inflammation in a dog's body like tick infections, ear allergies, certain kinds of arthritis, and to think about low dose daily ascriptin(buffered asprin which a few big breeders give daily) fish oil,etc that lower inflammation. Some cancers like lymphoma seem to relate to the inflammation process. 

Hemangiosarcoma? I just have no idea what to do about that. I only recently caught on to the research about neutering too young adding to risk- too late for my current dogs. Their contracts said neuter at 6 to 8 months, and they were neutered at 8 months. I worry about that. Shaving goldens and exposing their skin to the sun is something each of my vets has recommended against in terms of skin cancers, mast cell tumors etc. I used to walk the goldens on the Yale Golf Course and the playing fields of the prep school where I worked- something I would never, ever do now because of the particular pesticides they use. But it is hard- I still feed kibble(Innova and Eagle Pack), have the dogs vaccinated for Lepto and Lyme yearly plus kennel cough, distemper, and parvo w/ rabies every three years. Food and vaccines worry me- but so do the diseases vaccinated against and the raw diet, so I have no clue what's best in those areas. Lastly, I do use monthly frontline and hearguard. I hate putting the chemical cocktail on the dogs every month, but our struggle with ticks is enormous and TBDs risky in their own right.

I am sure certain lines do have a greater propensity for certain cancers, and yet having lost goldens from vastly different, all well-researched for longevity lines, I think of it as our breed's cross to bear more than a particular breeder's. I think unfair rumors abound, and that data/info is far too incomplete to draw conclusions since cause of death/ age of death are too rarely recorded. Saying that, I do worry about my dog Tally because of a particular sire in his background- sigh.


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## zphantom (Jan 4, 2009)

Ljilly28, you touched on a few questions that I am going to have as well once I get the puppy. What is best to feed (looking at staying with kibble), what vaccinations, when to spay/neuter, etc.

I agree with you all about how cancer is too common with the breed, my puppy will have a 60% chance of dying from cancer, I just don't want to make a mistake to increase those chances. The problem is that you question everything, lawn fertilizer, food, etc. It sometimes seems helpless.

I agree with all of you that regardless any time spent with these dogs is worth this, but I just want to sway the odds in my favor anyway I can.

Thanks for the responses so far, it does make me feel that I am looking at this in the same light as most of you, which makes me feel that I am on the right track.


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## enzcade (Apr 13, 2009)

*Cancer is not just a North American problem*

The issues with cancer in goldens seems to be pretty prevalent everywhere. I live in New Zealand and have had 7 goldens between myself and my parents. Five have passed away - four from cancer (the last somewhat astonishingly reached 16.5 yrs and died of age related conditions). They all traced back to the same lines although came from three different breeders. Two were litter brothers who both got multiple myeloma which my vet assures me is sufficiently rare that most vets only see one case in their entire careers. Two seems rough!

I wasn't sure whether I was just unlucky or this was a real trend. However, the sire of our litter brothers died of lymphoma. As did a number of others in his prolific line. One of my boys was a show champion and sired a number of litters and I hate to say this but a number of his progeny have since passed away with blood related cancers too.

A BBC documentary on purebred dogs screened recently. It looked at some of the issues of inbreeding and line breeding in pure bred dogs including the obvious candidates such as English bulldogs (breathing etc), boxers (epilepsy) etc. Goldens were cited for cancer.

It is refreshing to see that some US breeders appear to be actively trying to breed to avoid cancer. I know that some local breeders say "it seems to be getting awfully common". I am just not sure if there is any conscious effort to treat cancer with the same respect as cataracts or hip displacia which are taken very seriously.

I have two goldens now - one is Scottish stud-dog import who was rehomed with me as he is a little "blonde" for local judges. The other does not come from the line of our first five and from memory her family have lived long lives! She is pushing 8 now so I am starting to get my cancer paranoia radar back on. I hope they have both missed the bullet, and would love to get another as I cannot imagine owning another breed but this is beyond devastating to live with like ground hog day.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

My feelings are the same as Tahnee, Murphy Teller, and Tippykayak.
In my own breedings, I look at a vertical pedigree and consider not only sire and dam, grandsire and granddam, etc, but siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins... it is time consuming, but helps me make my final decisions. Because it has not been disproved that certain cancers are hereditarly, and anecdotal evidence suggests that they are, I avoid lines with a high rate of early deaths due to cancer, among other diseases. 
I do not discount environmental factors entirely, but I have enjoyed longevity in my own dogs, even feeding a commercial kibble and living in a rural area (where there is concern regarding use of fertilizers and pesticides on surrounding farms). I have subscribed to the new vaccine protocols ever since researchers began to look at over-vaccinations as being at least in part responsible for the compromised immune systems of our dogs, and in the increased rate of some cancers. All we can do is the best that we know how, and much of that is instinct.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

zphantom hello and welcome to the forum. :wave:

Two years ago I lost a young dog of my breeding to a type of cancer. I had samples sent off to two research organizations recommended by the GRCA. One of the was to Dr. Modiano who at the time was at the University of Clolorado, I believe he has since moved. He and Drs. Breen, Ostrander, London and Linblad-Toh are considered among the top authorities on canine cancer. Anyway I asked the following of him

_Also when someone has a chance I was wondering if there is any 
info/data on the genetic probability of this being heredity or is it 
more a type of mutation when it occurs in a dog of this age. Although 
I am not a big breeder I do have dogs that this would be pertinent 
to._ 

And this was his response. Now again this was two years ago and we all know how quickly things can change and new discoveries are made but I am not aware of anymore of any.

_As far as the genetics, we don't know the precise answer, but probably 
not. Risk is what it is, and whether it manifests young or old is a 
matter of how the inherent risk factors that exist interact with each 
other and the environment, so there is a bit of randomness to it all.
Some very specific types of cancer in people, and one type of cancer in 
dogs are known to be "heritable" in the sense that the risk is 
associated with mutation of a single gene (and the gene is different 
for each cancer syndrome recognized).
For tumors like leukemia, which also occur very frequently in kids, the 
heritable risk is complex and not necessarily such that it will show up 
in every individual. So we do not consider that a heritable or 
"genetic" disease in the conventional sense.
In other words, the fact that Kizmet got this disease so young is an 
unfortunate accident (and please, do not infer that as meaning that we 
are any less sorry or upset about the news), but her risk was probably 
not significantly different than the risk of any other golden._


Lastly if it has not already been suggested check out this article on the GRCA's website
http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/cancer.pdf


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

The other part of this is how old the dogs were that died of cancer. If Joe Stud died at 15 from hemangio that isn't going to bother me as much as Jim Bob dying at 5 from hemangio. With some old dogs we don't get definitive answers - there aren't a lot of necropsies of very senior dogs that die in their sleep - and that's the thing with hemangio - they can be absolutely fine one day and on their deathbed the next - in an old dog - it could be chalked up to a lot of things - even by experienced breeders and owners...

Erica


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## zphantom (Jan 4, 2009)

MurphyTeller said:


> The other part of this is how old the dogs were that died of cancer. If Joe Stud died at 15 from hemangio that isn't going to bother me as much as Jim Bob dying at 5 from hemangio. With some old dogs we don't get definitive answers - there aren't a lot of necropsies of very senior dogs that die in their sleep - and that's the thing with hemangio - they can be absolutely fine one day and on their deathbed the next - in an old dog - it could be chalked up to a lot of things - even by experienced breeders and owners...
> 
> Erica


Here is what I have tracked down without asking breeder directly "Explain how every dog you have ever had, sold or bred has died." (for some reason, I know I have a right to ask, but I feel I am going to come off as crazy if I directly ask that question. I am going to try to find out more as I speak with the breeder, but in more of a roundabout way):

All listed dogs in relation to puppy to be:

Sire: Obviously living (age: 5)
Dam: Obviously living (age: I believe 4, if not 4 then 5)

Paternal grandsire: Dead (Death at age: 8, cause: cancer [not sure which])
Paternal granddam: Unknown (If alive would be 9)

Maternal grandsire: Dead (Death at age: 11, cause: unknown) [GCRA OS, pretty decorated dog]
Maternal granddam: Living (age: 9) [littermate of paternal grandsire]

Full siblings of paternal grandsire / maternal granddam:
[A]: Dead (Death at age 5 or 6 of accident, do not know specifics)
*: Dead (Death at age: 8, cause: assumed to be cancer [not sure which, most likely hemangiosarcoma])
[C]: Living (age: 8)
[...]: Unknown dogs.

Full siblings of paternal granddam [was outcross, another breeder's dog]:
Unknown, 3 listed on k9data (no deaths listed).

Full siblings of maternal grandsire [was outcross, another breeder's dog]:
10 listed on k9data (all assumed to be dead, death ages: 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, other 4 unknown).

That is the information that I have been able to find out on my own, via k9data, and other sources.*


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

This is a really interesting thread, and I look forward to reading more responses from breeders.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

*"Thunder" *
*Am.Ch. Faera's Future Classic OS (1/31/1990-8/7/2000)*

*From Rhonda Hovan: * *To All Friends of Dogs: *
*It's hard to believe that almost three years have gone by already since Thunder was diagnosed with **lymphoma**. I remember so many details of that moment: how my weight was shifted to my left leg, the color of my shoes, the feel of Thunder's broad head under my hand, his eyes. I remember his trusting eyes so well. Odd, though, I don't recall much of what was said, just the sound of a voice breaking the news that I'd already guessed. I got through that moment, but never away from it. *
*If you've had Goldens for very long, or dogs for very long, you know that moment, because you've been there. And if you haven't been there yet, you will be. Sixty to seventy percent of Goldens die of cancer; forty-five percent of all dogs die of cancer. In fact, some of you are hearing the news that your dog has cancer today, and some will hear the news tomorrow, or next week. Right now, that's almost a given if you own multiple dogs. After Thunder was diagnosed, I searched for answers, the same as everyone else does. How do I help him? Why did this happen? How do I protect my other dogs? I have to admit that my first reaction was centered on MY dogs - I did not immediately see the bigger picture. But what I finally realized was that to help my own dogs, I needed to become part of the bigger picture. The only way to improve the future for my dogs, was to become part of the solution by participating in research to help all dogs. And I discovered very quickly that helping other dogs, helping my breed, gave meaning to that moment. If I had to lose Thunder, what better legacy could he leave behind, than to be part of a more hopeful future? I wrote a public letter then, hoping to help recruit others who wanted to do more than just grieve for their impending loss. And so many who read the plea responded. Their willingness to reach out in the midst of their sorrow, really made a difference in a lymphoma study that was in progress at that time. And I'm sure that every owner who participated would affirm that they are grateful they had that opportunity. *
*Thunder passed away about 2 years ago. The disease got him - but in one small way, he struck a blow against the disease too. That remains a source of comfort. So here we are, nearly three years later, and I'm writing another letter. There is a new canine cancer study that needs our support and participation. This one is for Goldens, Rottweilers, and Mastiffs who have been diagnosed with **lymphoma** or **osteosarcoma**. Other breeds may be included with prior approval of the researchers. Owners and their vet will need to submit biopsy samples, a blood sample, a pedigree, signed consent forms, and agree to acceptable chemotherapy treatment. Blood samples will also be needed from 2 unaffected first degree relatives (parents, siblings, offspring). Now here's the part that is sometimes a problem: the biopsy sample must be prepared in a very specific way, using a solution supplied by the researchers. Therefore, the researchers must be contacted at least a day or two PRIOR to the surgery. In addition, the dog must not have started treatment such as chemotherapy or prednisone before the biopsy. *
*We who love our dogs, the scientists trying to help us, and of course, the dogs themselves - need your help. We're all in this together, and together we can make a difference. If you are faced with that numbing moment when you hear or suspect a diagnosis of **lymphoma** or **osteosarcoma**, and your dog fits the study requirements, please contact me. I know it takes courage to look beyond that moment, while you are in the midst of it. But I also know that these affected dogs who participate in research, leave behind a legacy that will be one of your greatest comforts. *
*If your dog does not meet the requirements for this study, and you would like to find one that is suitable, I will try to help. Even if you just have questions, I will try to help. Like I said, we're all in this together. *

* Permission is granted to forward or post this letter to any person, list, or web site; wide distribution will be appreciated.
*http://www.everythinggolden.com/h&g_committee.htm


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I wish I had seen this study before we lost Gus. His lymphoma was rare and atypical, so it pains me that no good data was gathered.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I wish I had seen this study before we lost Gus. His lymphoma was rare and atypical, so it pains me that no good data was gathered.


Gus' illness upset all my illusions about some dogs being safer from cancer than others. Of all dogs, lean, fit, loved, joyful Gus was the dog I least expected to have a rare lymphoma or not to be a white faced 16 year old for any reason at all. I no longer believe that humans yet have grasped a rhyme or reason for which goldens get cancer and which do not- Gus and Finn's mom and dad are both still alive and mom is something like 14?? I was thinking about how Finn's 7th birthday is going to be a day about missing Gus and wanting him back in the worst way.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Gus' illness upset all my illusions about some dogs being safer from cancer than others. Of all dogs, lean, fit, loved, joyful Gus was the dog I least expected to have a rare lymphoma or not to be a white faced 16 year old for any reason at all. I no longer believe that humans yet have grasped a rhyme or reason for which goldens get cancer and which do not- Gus and Finn's mom and dad are both still alive and mom is something like 14?? I was thinking about how Finn's 7th birthday is going to be a day about missing Gus and wanting him back in the worst way.


Yup. Dad is a rip roaring eight-year-old who moves and looks like he's three. Mom is a cantankerous old lady (yup, 14!) whose teeth are worn down but still moves OK, chastises all the new puppies when they get uppity, and works hard for string cheese. 

All the dogs in those lines that I know of, with few exceptions, have particularly good longevity and the cancers come late and seemingly less frequently than average. But, I've been saying for a long time that the causes of the common cancers are far more complex than we would wish and I was horribly proven correct by my own experience of selecting a dog for longevity, paying extraordinary attention to his health, and then losing him heartrendingly young.

Some cancers in humans have been shown to be strongly correlated with relatively simple genetic markers, but those kinds of cancers seem to be the exception, not the rule. The common, horrible ones we see, like lymphoma, osteosarcoma, and hemangiosarcoma, do not have clear causes we understand yet, and we may never definitively grasp the multiplicity of causes in a way that lets us prevent them on a large scale.

Gus's lymphoma was of a type simply not seen in his ancestry, though the sophisticated diagnostic tools used to classify his disease weren't available even twenty years ago, so it's possible that dogs suffered his type of lymphoma and were simply euthanized with the cause remaining a mystery.

Honest and open breeders tend report and therefore show more cancer in their lines, but the fact is that it is widespread in the domesticated dog. Larger dogs, like Goldens, are even more prone than average to osteosarcoma, so it's not surprising that if a dog lives long enough, he'll eventually succumb to one of the common cancers. I do believe that the apparent cancer risk in Goldens is inflated by the fact that they tend to receive better medical care, on average, than many other breeds, so cancers are diagnosed properly and recorded more carefully.

Part of the bargain of life is that, human or canine, it can slip away with breathtaking fragility. It's a bargain I've made four times now because my joy has paid my grief a thousand times over. I have gone through that moment of saying, "I can't do this again," but that's a shortsighted, fleeting thought. The jingle of the tags before a copper blur bursts back around the corner of a trail, the perfectly timed shake-off that drenches you no matter how careful you are, the soft wet thud of pads on the dock before a young dog takes to the air, these are sui generis joys.


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## rudee (Jun 14, 2010)

I would love the name of the breeder you referred to in NW PA. If you would like to speak to me more before giving me any info, I would welcome it. -Deb


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I recently read an article about a study for I think rottweillers. They were studying all the long lived ones out there, that seemed to have escaped the cancer, to see what was unique about them. Diet, vaccinations, environment, etc.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

The lives of Gus and Kizmet show us, I believe, that we as owners can try our best to protect our dogs -- and breeders can try their best to breed the best dogs -- but that still, nature is a powerful, mysterious force -- and that we just can't explain the unexplainable. 

The best we all can do is accept certain statistical facts about our breed--and it's that 60% of golden retrievers will succumb to cancer. We do our best to provide them with healthy lives--chose them from a source that is acceptable to us--and love them and appreciate them each and every day because it doesn't matter if they're a year old, or 10 years old, or anywhere in between, or beyond, you never know when twilight falls on your relationship with them.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I also personally always wondered if they have a higher rate of cancer because of the "mouthiness" of the breed.

How many unsafe things have I pulled out of their mouths? Things possibly covered with lead paint? Children's toys that they have chewed up that was later recalled because of lead or who knows what other chemicals. Cardboard boxes or kleenex tissues that have been chewed, and who knows how much ingested. Chewing up, digging up, rolling in who knows what outside, possibly having lead or pesticides.

Just my food for thought.


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## 58loosy (Apr 18, 2010)

My Breezy had bone cancer, the cancer had fractured her leg, we had no idea til it happened, she had her morning walk that morning, that afternoon she couldn't walk, she was 12 yrs. We were just saying how healthy and strong and she should have had more years.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> PS - My six year old Golden, Gus, died in December of a very rare variety of lymphoma (cutaneous panniculitis-like T-cell). He was the first dog in any of the lines to have died of it, so far as we could tell, and he came from lines with a remarkably low incidences of cancers that early in life.


Gus and Finn's mom just died a few months ago at 15 years plus and their father Rodin is running Master Hunter at age 10. . . there are no early deaths from cancer in their whole line- siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents. The only other two young deaths over the years were 1 bloat and 1 car accident in two different pet homes. It was an absolutely shock to me that Gus, of all dogs, developed this cancer.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

cubbysan said:


> I recently read an article about a study for I think rottweillers. They were studying all the long lived ones out there, that seemed to have escaped the cancer, to see what was unique about them. Diet, vaccinations, environment, etc.


That's the study that shows a link between spayed and neutered dogs and certain cancers, I'm fairly certain--there appears to be a link between hemangio and spayed females, for example--probability increases as I recall. We know hormones play a role in some cancers--testicular, mammary, etc. Do lack of hormones play a role in others? Will we discover that, just as in most decisions, there are trade offs no matter what we do?


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## MidasMom (Jun 2, 2010)

Welcome fellow Michigander! I am no breeder or expert by any means, but I am in your same shoes. I too, am getting another golden puppy from a breeder in Michigan. Having lost both my goldens last year at 8 years old to hemangiosarcoma, they were brothers, I was determined to find a breeder with lines low on the cancer. I would spend hours on k9data looking at longevity pedigrees and trying to find a breeder with the least amount of dogs that had died at a young age. Its very difficult. And I am sure almost all breeders have suffered loses due to cancer at some point. Its just one of those unfortunate things that happen no matter how careful you think you are being in your breeder selection. Although it is nice to find a breeder you feel comfortable with and know that they do all health checks, clearances and that their dogs have wonderful temperments. I found that in the breeder I chose, pups are due in 10 days! Anyway, good luck and enjoy your golden. There is no love like a golden and whether they are here with us for 15 years, 8 years or 5 minutes it makes no difference, the love they leave is unmeasureable.


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