# 100% trust a dog?



## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Can you ever trust your dog 100% ? By trust I mean trusting he will not harm a person. Let me clarify that I am not including intruders or anything of that nature. Do you trust that your dog would never bite anybody on purpose ?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Absolutely. I totally and completely trust all my dogs.
Bite inhibition is something they all have, and learned from puppyhood, both in the whelping box from their littermates and mama, and from the people they have encountered as young dogs. 
We did have a Shiba once that I could not trust at all- he was a trickster. We got him at 10 weeks and nothing we did could change who he was. If something or someone infringed on his own interest, he would react. When he became an opportunist, and attacked Hudson a time or two, he went back to the breeder who was accustomed to that sort of behavior. Thankfully little Wasabi didn't change Hudson's attitude towards smaller dogs. 
I once had a girl, Bess, that I trusted to let my kids walk- Bess would only go to the end of the driveway then would sit, refusing to budge. At the beach, she'd walk with them till I was about 50 yards behind, then sit and refuse to budge. If someone told me any of my dogs bit them I would be certain they were lying!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Nope. Both of my dogs - my sweet, dear Tesia, and now my bright, happy puppy, Shala - I would never leave unattended with young children. Far too risky, even with a sweet-tempered Golden. You never know what can happen - something like an accidental stepping on a tail or falling onto a leg can result in a fear or pain reaction from the dog. Tesia was the sweetest old soul, who let my nieces dress her up and play with her endlessly - but I still always sat there with them.

With adults, as long as no one was threatening Shala or me, I don't believe she would ever intentionally bite someone. She's be too busy licking them to death. And Tesia didn't have an aggressive bone in her body.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

You mean just out of the blue bite someone? 

I would have to say no, because she is a living breathing animal, with her own free will and there is always a chance, I guess. 99% sure, yes.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wendi said:


> I would have to say no, because she is a living breathing animal, with her own free will and there is always a chance, I guess. 99% sure, yes.


I agree. Chance is probably one of the sweetest most loving dogs I have ever had. But...he has teeth and the possibility is there. They're not robots. I really don't believe you can ever say 100%. I think all dogs a have their "trigger" that would cause them to act opposite of their usual behavior. 

I do believe, though, that Chance's trigger, (whatever it is), would have to be _very_ extreme in it's nature to cause him to ever bite.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Yes, I trust 100% that none of my goldens would ever bite anyone on purpose. I know two of them wouldn't bite even someone who was posing a threat to me, one of them might. Two of the three are therapy dogs (with the third on his way to being one) and they work with children, having them read to them. Danny also works with children with autism who can be unpredictable in their movements and behavior and I don't worry for one second that he would ever bite one of them, even if they were to hurt him accidentally (the teachers and Jay and I protect him from that possibility, but it's still something that could happen).

Jasper is the other therapy dog and I never, ever worry about him hurting a child. But he is also the one golden who I think would possibly bite someone if they were to threaten or hurt me. He's very attached to me and very protective of me. If I am sleeping and anyone comes into the room where I am sleeping, he barks at them. Even if it's my husband. He never barks at anyone at any other time.

My lab/golden on the other hand, I am sure she would bite someone if they stepped on her or hurt her physically. Or threatened her. She probably wouldn't break the skin, but I would never leave a child unattended around her. She doesn't much care for kids in the first place.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

If you annoy me enough, I'll react with sarcasm and possibly a snarl. Max doesn't have those options. I don't think he'd ever bite someone without being provoked, but I can't say I'm 100% positive. (And he's a therapy dog, too)


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Our Golden's would harm no one, under any circumstances. If someone broke in they would bark at them and them 'lick them to death' LOL

Two notable exceptions:
If a dog is attacked by another dog and a dog fight starts, they may bight anyone jumping in. I would not trust any dog in this example...

Also, if a dog is injured, like being hit by a car (God forbid) or if a dog is very, very sick and in pain....they can bite if you hurt them when moving them....

In both cases move the dog by wrapping them in a blanket, you can keep their head in line so that they cannot bite, and it stabilizes their body for transport.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

For me it depends on the dog. None of my dogs would ever react over resource guarding or because children were being loud and crazy. But if Steve was in enough pain? I don't know. His response to pain is to get grumpy, so I guess it's a possibility- however I can't ever picture him laying his teeth on a well-meaning person, and particularly a child (Steve is a mommy-dog trapped in a boy-dog body!). But I am certain that if a person was ever to hurt me Steve would react very aggressively. 

We actually did have a scary situation when we were camping in the bush once. Two strange men wandered in to our isolated camp on foot in the middle of the night. Scared the hell out if us and Steve actually did lunge for them snarling and barking, with little chicken Fuzzy hiding behind him. I ran over and grabbed his collar and held him back while my husband dealt with the men, but it was a terrifying situation and a very long night for us. What luck for us- pretty sure we randomly camped near these peoples grow-operation or something like that, in the middle of the bush. And now we camp in provincial campgrounds when we travel! But yes, I know Steve would've bitten those men if they had kept coming forward after he charged at them, or if I'd let go of his collar. And I find that pretty reassuring. 


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## Heart O'Gold (Jul 31, 2012)

100% is probably hard to achieve. Bentley is very mild and never aggressive, but if he got rowdy in play he might mouth (he still has a bit of a puppy brain  ), which could hurt a little one, though I don't think he would do such a thing, I wouldn't risk it. My kids are teenagers, so I guess it's the unknown factor of how he would be if little ones were playing etc. around him. I wouldn't leave them unattended for that reason. So I am probably at 99%.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

yup, I trust both our dogs not to bite anyone who means no harm to us. When our one year old granddaughter came by at Christmas she was running all over the place screaming and playing. Rose while excited she undulated her body around her protecting her from falling.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Amber was bomb proof. Maddie, I would trust around 75%. Probably she wouldn't react, but I don't know for certain.

I still remember when I had Amber out (yes, off leash) in a Smith and Hawkins store in town. I heard an "ooff" and looked for Amber. A small child about three or so had flung herself across Amber. Amber just looked at me with those golden eyes, "um, is this one of ours?"


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I do as much as you can trust any living being. If you step on a tail, you may get bitten just as if you slam into me from behind on the sidewalk, you may get a smack before I realize what's going on. If you inflict enough pain, expect it back! I consider a tail step (even unintentional) to be provoking.

A 100% out of the blue unprovoked attach, I don't see happening.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The only thing that my former boss said that I totally agree with is "all dogs bite, it's a question of when." Every dog has a threshold... When my kids were younger, it was my job to keep them and my dogs safe. The boys learned at a very young age to respect out pets. But they were never left unattended with them and they were never around the dogs when they were eating. It was all about safety for everyone.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Pilot, our older GSD, no way. She'd bite someone for sure they messed with her. 

Huck, our other GSD, he'd attack an intruder or someone who meant me harm in an instant. I don't think he'd ever bite anyone for any other reason - he has an extraordinarily consistent, even temperament, solid nerves, and great confidence. Having said that, I'm not a dummy, he is a GSD and I would never leave him unattended with anyone else's children. 

Willie, Golden #1, we'll see, he's too young yet to tell. I expect to be able to trust him though.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shellbug said:


> Can you ever trust your dog 100% ? By trust I mean trusting he will not harm a person. Let me clarify that I am not including intruders or anything of that nature. Do you trust that your dog would never bite anybody on purpose ?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Absolutely. 

My goldens will probably bark at an intruder, and then have a happy greeting party around them. Goldens should have golden temperament. And after everything we went through with our first two goldens, temperament was high on the list when interviewing breeders. Jacks has never even growled or raised his lips or come close to either in all his 6 years and knock on wood, Bertie is the same way.

What you need to be concerned about is when a dog is in pain and out of his mind. I would not be surprised if a bite happens if this dog is moved in such a way that it hurts very badly.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Absolutely not.

Dogs are animals with their own sets of impulses. No matter how well trained and how great their temperament it is impossible to say that what a living creature will do with 100% certainty.

For that reason I do not leave my dogs alone with children and when they do meet kids I am mindful of the quick lip lick or the whale eye, the ear twitch, or the calming signals.


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

Dog bites are usually from people provoking the dog. I trust Maverick about 90%, however I won't leave him alone with someone I don't trust 100%. And ANY interaction with a child must be monitored by me or someone I trust with Maverick and basic understanding of dog body language.

Dogs are still animals and I think as humans, we're still learning about these animals we've called companions for centuries.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Lilliam said:


> For that reason I do not leave my dogs alone with children and when they do meet kids I am mindful of the quick lip lick or the whale eye, the ear twitch, or the calming signals.



What is the quick lip lick, whale eye and ear twitch ?



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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Shellbug said:


> What is the quick lip lick, whale eye and ear twitch ?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Dog communication.

Calming signals are a dog's way to tell another dog or a human "it's OK I don't mean you any harm" or "don't be angry, I'm not." They include things like looking away, off to the side or the stress yawn.

Whale eye is when a dog is worried or concerned and they look off to the side and the white (sclera) of the eye shows. 

The lip lick is the last attempt a dog has to show distress, before a snarl or a growl. A dog will quickly lick his lips, sometimes covering his nose. Some dogs will purse their lips slightly before a bite. These are all very subtle movements and we miss often miss them, but they're cues that he is worried, concerned, stressed.





This dog gave SEVERAL warnings


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## wjane (Oct 12, 2013)

Two of my girls, Molly and Autumn, 100%. Molly grew up with my daughter - fallen on, tail stepped on etc. I never saw her snarl, lip curl or bite - ever. Autumn was adopted at 8 - that girl was a dream - She had to put up with my snarky resident golden who attacked her a few times, drawing blood - never fought back. If you stepped on her tail she would wag it after you got off it. Both the sweetest dogs ever. Sure hope I will be blessed with another golden like them. I know they are both resting in peace.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Lilliam- thank you for the information! I am in need of learning this. Thank you ?


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

You bet. Look for canine stress body language. Also for canine calming signals. You will be amazed how much they communicate to us.

http://www.4pawsu.com/stresssigns.html


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Nope, it is my responsibility as a dog owner to understand that every dog CAN bite, and I should not assume they will not bite regardless of the situation. However I do trust 100% that my dogs will tell me how they feel about any situation or environment and they trust that I will listen to them.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Yes, I 100 percent trust my past dog Joplin and my current dog Tally would never hurt a person.


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## Ripley16 (Jan 26, 2012)

I do 100% trust my girl. I don't leave her unattended with children though, but this is mostly as a re assurance to the parents, more than me concerned with what Ripley will do. Ripley is constantly around my 3 year old nephew and they are best friends. He calls her "Prickly" and they sleep in the same bed together on occasion


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I've had six goldens. Not once in the over 20 years we've owned goldens has any of them ever shown any aggression or propensity to be aggressive to humans. But I would never say that I trust them 100 percent to not ever nip or bite a human, they are dogs and there is always something in my mind that says under unusual or stressful situations it might or could happen. We have young grandchildren who are here frequently, the greatest danger is that the dogs could knock them down in their eagerness to play with them, but the kids and dogs are never left together unsupervised. As far as strangers in our house, if a burglar would break in they would probably show them the way to the safe and where we store our jewelery, as long as the strangers would give them a cookie and pet them on their way out the door.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My first golden, Sally, was a well trained, very obedient dog. When I was pregnant with my first son, I attended a neighborhood party at my in laws. It was outdoors with food all around. I decided to put Sally in a sit stay to keep her away from the food. She never ever broke a stay... A neighborhood girl that she knew, about five at the time, came up behind her and choke hold hugged her around the neck. Sally didn't growl or snap, but she whipped her head back and the look in her eyes scared me. I ended up taking her to a behaviorist, who found nothing wrong with her temperament...instead we worked on teaching her to pick up the dumbbell. Sally was so conflicted, I had told her to stay, so she did, but she couldn't flee when she was "hugged" because she would never break a stay...

And I step on tails and paws sometimes when I am cooking... No one ever reacts. In fact, once when I was trimming George's tail, I lacerated it... He just turned his head and looked at me like I was an idiot, but he never snapped...


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

my Pudden was a kind gentle soul around people, including children, she was very trustworthy. Biting people was not really in her repertoire.

Even so, mama would never have left the Pudden alone with small children, or even subject her to small children for an extended amount of time. Small kids, esp. boys, are often obnoxious little blighters who can be unbelievable rude to dogs. Mama would never impose one of those little pests on her dogs and expect her dogs to be angels about it. Not fair to the dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I've worked with thousands of dogs now for many years, and I assure you all dogs will bite if the provocation is right. I can't imagine what the trigger would be for Tito, can't even think of a situation that might cause him to bite, but the reality is they are animals, and they have teeth, hence, they might bite. 
I remember a very sad story a while back of a beautiful labrador retriever, about whom the owners made the same claims that they trusted the dog 100%, he'd never bite a child, etc. etc. etc.
He was with their 3 or 4 year old, and suddenly the dog bit the child on the face. The people, in a fit of anger and sadness, took the dog to be put down, feeling that he could never be trusted again. 
The vet found that he had a raging, raw, horrific ear infection. The child must have startled the dog and poked it in the ear or some such thing.
They have teeth. They will bite.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

As far as kids go - I would not let my dogs be around kids without me right there with a hand on the leash or collar or ready to swoop in. 

1. If your dog knocks a kid over and the kid is injured, you could be looking at an angry mom at the mildest going after you and your dog.

2. Kids can be terrible. I take a lot of pride in the fact that my dogs live their whole lives without a human hitting them or hurting them in any other way. I have never heard them cry out in pain. 

I hear about kids kicking dogs, hitting them, slamming their heads into things, climbing on them - and I'm just horrified that people aren't more protective of their dogs, especially those who have been bred to be so sweet and gentle. And yes, they were bred to be more tolerant of pain. 

My dogs will not protect themselves. I know that going back to those 2 times that I've had neighborhood dogs come out and biting at my Danny's legs and biting at Jacks' neck. Those dogs both did absolutely nothing other than lunging away from the attack and looking to me for protection. 

This is what you can expect in a nicely bred golden. And you should. 

I don't think anyone should be OK with their dogs growling at people or snapping at them with very mild provocation. 

The only time it would be expected and excusable would be if these dogs are in terrible pain. And even then, that's reactive to the pain. Not actually biting with the intent to injure or get somebody to back off. 

That's my feeling on it. Our first two goldens were a nightmare getting them trained through resource guarding and snapping/growling issues. The first golden (who came from a cwappy backyard breeder) could never be trusted. We respected his space and he did nothing more than growling and rumbling as he retreated. Our second golden calmed down with age and became a trustworthy dog, but it took major league management and owner-smarts on our part to keep him under control.

The tolerance of pain thing is important to note. I was talking with somebody about getting our collie groomed nicely and teaching us how to groom him properly. It only took us 7 years to reach this point. The person was primarily nervous about grooming somebody else's collie - and I know it's because they will snap if it hurts even the mildest bit. Arthur has snapped when in pain (he has a neck issue and when disks lock up, he's falling over screaming and snapping at hands).


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

I can say say I am 100% about Sweetie. Jack has been thru alot and never bitten but if someome hurt Sweetie or Andie he might bite but it would take alot. Two little girls came by today that I had never seen before & came right into our yard to play with them ( I could tell it wasn't the first time). They didn't know I was watching ( I was inside looking out ) & they both loved & played with them. I took the girls out some treats to give them & asked them where their Mom was, they told me & after they left I went & told the lady(very nicely) they were welcome to come over & see Jack & Sweetie but to please give me a call first & gave her my number. You just never know.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> As far as kids go - I would not let my dogs be around kids without me right there with a hand on the leash or collar or ready to swoop in.
> 
> 1. If your dog knocks a kid over and the kid is injured, you could be looking at an angry mom at the mildest going after you and your dog.
> 
> ...


No matter how well bred Max is, and I have great faith and trust in his breeding, he is a dog. He is a sentient being with his own reactions, perceptions, anxieties, concerns. Good breeding does not mean that all behaviours are hard coded in with no possibility of the unexpected. I cannot 100% say that Max will never bite. No matter the excellent work his breeder did. And oh boy, she did.


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## Ruby13 (Dec 28, 2013)

Out of my 4, I trust my Chihuahua and lab most of all. Both have been with me since pups, even though the Chi was 5 months when we got her. I would be very very shocked if either of them ever bit a human being. But I could never say that I am 100% sure they won't, because I can't predict the situations they could be put in. 

Ruby's entire past isn't known to me, so I don't leave her alone with children. Again, I would be very shocked if she bit someone, but I do think she would react if someone came into our home intending to do us harm. 

Pedro is my 'loose cannon'. He will bite, I know he will bite, everyone knows he will bite. He was abused, and has problems with fear aggression. He has never bit me, but he has bit my husband numerous times. I would never let him be around a child, supervised or not. My poor husband had gone a couple of years without being bitten by Pedro, but last night I went to bed early, and of course, all the dogs went with me. When my husband came to bed, or tried to come to bed, Pedro bit him. (He never brings blood, just does it hard enough to let you know he means business.) He doesn't trust men, or children, and large tattooed men are his worse nightmare. 

I've heard of too many good dogs biting to fully trust any of them, but there are those I trust more than others.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Pudden said:


> my Pudden was a kind gentle soul around people, including children, she was very trustworthy. Biting people was not really in her repertoire.
> 
> Even so, mama would never have left the Pudden alone with small children, or even subject her to small children for an extended amount of time. Small kids, esp. boys, are often obnoxious little blighters who can be unbelievable rude to dogs. Mama would never impose one of those little pests on her dogs and expect her dogs to be angels about it. Not fair to the dog.



Lol yes little boys ARE obnoxious ?
Having said that, that's all Thor knows and he goes back for more more more lol. That silly baby seeks out my toddler for play. He just can't get enough lol 


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

I trust Kea 100% around any person. She also trusts me 100% to never put her in a situation where someone might not be able to understand when she's not comfortable. I may be anthropomorphizing, but trust is a two-way street, ya know? 

I should add that she has earned my trust. She'll be 3 in April, and we've done a lot of training and socialization through which she has proven to me that she can be trusted in many kinds of situations. She has dealt with babies, toddlers, puppies, and old folks with dementia in the nursing home under my supervision. 

Lilliam, thanks for sharing the info on calming signals and stress signals. We received some training on this in Kea's therapy dog class. I found it extremely informative.


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## gldnboys (Mar 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> As far as kids go - I would not let my dogs be around kids without me right there with a hand on the leash or collar or ready to swoop in.
> 
> 1. If your dog knocks a kid over and the kid is injured, you could be looking at an angry mom at the mildest going after you and your dog.
> 
> ...


This is what mine have been/are like as well. With respect to kids, I wouldn't leave my dogs alone with them either, for the above reasons: it's not because I don't trust my dog, but because I wouldn't trust the kids to treat him with the respect he deserves. Plus the knocking-kids-over thing is a real possibility with my happy, exuberant puppy, and I wouldn't want anyone getting hurt - or angry, in the case of the parent(s) - unnecessarily. I make sure I supervise any interactions with children and adults alike (very close friends and family aside) so I know exactly what is going on, and can intervene if/as necessary. 

I may be moving away somewhat from the original question, but I think it all ties in.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Let's differentiate, though. There's a difference between a sick or injured dog saying, "Hey, that hurts!" and a dog that attacks someone. The former may snarl, snap and even make contact with skin and draw a little blood. But they're not "biting" you, they're just communicating with you about their pain. A dog that "bites" is one that will leave puncture marks. It might be scary to have a sick or injured dog turn, snarl, and leave marks, but that dog is talking to you, not attacking you. So, I'm not sure people here are talking about the same thing.

But we can play the "what if" game to death: what if he's injured; what if he has one of those Star Trek ear bugs in him that eats his brain; what if he's a werewolf? I think there's a difference between all the exceptional things we can imagine, and what we can really expect from our dogs. For instance, that dog with the raging ear infection that the oblivious people took to be put down, is there anyone here who wouldn't have been aware of that raging infection? Anyone? Bueller? I know I clean my dogs' ears and examine them every week, and I know if there's something wrong with their ears, teeth, bellies, joints, muscles, etc. So let's stay real. These folks were so oblivious that they didn't know the dog had a "raging" ear infection, and just took it to be put down? Really??? Does that sound like anyone on this forum who pays attention to their dogs?

That said, yeah, I get to the 100% point with some of my dogs.

Chelsea (at the bridge) was a marine rescue dog. Panicking people were trying to drown her, and she never bit, she just did her job. She would be enveloped by a crowd of kids who would pull on her tail, poke her eyes, try to ride her, etc., and she tolerated it all with dignity and aplomb. She wouldn't bite unless she had one of those Romulan ear worms.

My current rescue, Isabelle, would never bite a human for any reason, not even to protect herself. I swear, she could be beaten to death by someone and would never bite, only try to get away. So, this isn't always a good thing. But it is something I know.

Other dogs, not so much.

Gibbs is too young. He's as affable and friendly as they come, but he's definitely an exuberant boy, and I don't know yet if or under what conditions he would bite. And Ziva is the mouthiest puppy I have ever had, so I'd say she bites everyone and everything, all the time. She's a biting machine, and I have the bloody arms to prove it


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

This is an interesting thread and touches on a lot of questions I've been having lately. When I'm around I trust my dogs 100% with anyone. I know my dogs have faith in me to protect them. They've also been extremely well socialized and I've seen them in so many situations that I know their signs and tells. When Oliver is scared and nervous he growls and barks. Bernie gets whale eyes, lip licks, and tries to retreat. (This is talking about people specifically - Bernie's a different story with dogs). But both my dogs clearly show signs of being stressed and uncomfortable and to me that's really important and that's why I trust them. I know they have a high tolerance for stress so I know I will be able to remove them from a situation before they'd ever get pushed to a point where they'd bite, I'm not even sure they'd ever really get pushed to the point where they would bite - hence why I feel confident I'd be able to remove them in time. 

If I'm not around I don't trust them not to bite, and thats just because I'm not there to protect them, and if they feel like they need to protect themselves biting is a viable option. Will they actually? I highly doubt it. But I'm not putting 100% faith in that. I know that some dogs will never protect themselves, but my dogs are not like that. They've gotten into fights with each other, just bratty fights. No punctures or blood. But its clear they'll defend themselves, so I know if pushed past their breaking point they'll protect themselves. I don't know what their breaking point is with humans, I know it would take a lot.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Having been bitten by a dog, in an unfortunate situation, I can attest to the fact that a dog bite happens lightening fast! I had multiple bruises right up to my elbow, indicating the dog had bitten me several times, a laceration requiring stitches on my hand. I did not 'see' it happen, I didn't 'feel' it happen, it was over and done in the blink of an eye. 

I gained a lot of respect that day for how fast a dog bite can happen and keep that in mind when my dogs are interacting with anyone other than me. The stakes are way too high, to risk being 'wrong' in the assumption that a dog will not bite.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Charliethree said:


> Having been bitten by a dog, in an unfortunate situation, I can attest to the fact that a dog bite happens lightening fast! I had multiple bruises right up to my elbow, indicating the dog had bitten me several times, a laceration requiring stitches on my hand. I did not 'see' it happen, I didn't 'feel' it happen, it was over and done in the blink of an eye.
> 
> I gained a lot of respect that day for how fast a dog bite can happen and keep that in mind when my dogs are interacting with anyone other than me. The stakes are way too high, to risk being 'wrong' in the assumption that a dog will not bite.


When I volunteered for our local GR rescue, my partner and I were attacked by one of the dogs we took in. It was, as you say, lightening fast. _Unbelievably_ fast! And we were BOTH bitten multiple times, and deeply, before we could react. Forgetting how frightening it was, it was _very_ impressive from a predator perspective.

This is why I say that you cannot "supervise" a dog. You _have_ to trust it, or get it out of the room. When people tell me their dog can't be left alone with children, I think, "What do you think you're going to do, except clean up the mess afterward?" They think they can prevent a bite. They can't. Dogs are too fast. By the time it's started it's already over.

When your dogs are interacting with others, how do you think you can stop it if they start to bite?


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## gldnboys (Mar 15, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> This is why I say that you cannot "supervise" a dog. You _have_ to trust it, or get it out of the room. When people tell me their dog can't be left alone with children, I think, "What do you think you're going to do, except clean up the mess afterward?" They think they can prevent a bite. They can't. Dogs are too fast. By the time it's started it's already over.
> 
> When your dogs are interacting with others, how do you think you can stop it if they start to bite?


I don't know if my post was one of the ones you're referring to, but when I mentioned having to be with my dog, I was referring to situations where I have control over how close the people, especially kids, even get in the first place, before they have a chance to interact with him. I just wouldn't want him to be in the position of feeling he has to defend himself because I'm not there, and/or have no control over how people behave around him. Kids in particular don't always behave appropriately around dogs to begin with, so I take advantage of the educational opportunity, making sure they approach him properly, and showing them how to greet a dog. I tell them that while my dog is friendly and absolutely loves kids, some dogs are uncertain and they should always ask first, etc. With my boy being young and exuberant, I explain that as well, and when he's overexcited and I know it's too much for him, I just don't let the kids get right up to him. Not because I'm afraid he might attack, but as I mentioned above, he still has the potential to knock children over in his excitement and his love for them.

Edited to add: I guess what I'm getting at is that while I believe all dogs have a breaking point, I do trust mine to the point that I believe only something really extreme might set him off to that extent. And if I'm right there with him, I can make sure that things like that simply don't happen. In an nutshell, it's not that I don't trust my dog 100%, but that I don't trust people 100%.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> When I volunteered for our local GR rescue, my partner and I were attacked by one of the dogs we took in. It was, as you say, lightening fast. _Unbelievably_ fast! And we were BOTH bitten multiple times, and deeply, before we could react. Forgetting how frightening it was, it was _very_ impressive from a predator perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are absolutely right. My daughter was bitten last year and it was fast. Really fast. Requiring many stitches in her face. Still pisses me off as I told my fil to get that horrible dog out of the house. I took him out several times myself and he kept getting back in. Well in the end my daughter was bitten for walking across the room. Nothing could have stopped it except for the dog being outside and not with us. 


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

After reading everyone's responses I would say that I trust my guys in normal situations to not bite.
I do see situations that I could see them have a reactionary bite, but I do feel that is different than an actual attack.

All that being said, whenever I bring Guinness to the vet to get his nails trimmed I tell them to muzzle him. I don't think he would bite, but he is just panicked enough that I'm not sure what he would do.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> When your dogs are interacting with others, how do you think you can stop it if they start to bite?


I totally agree with you, but I think the point of supervision is to make sure that situations that might cause a bite don't happen. You are absolutely right that a bite can happen faster than a person could possibly react, but when I think about supervising dogs and kids, I think about making sure the kids aren't doing anything that might provoke a bite, and I think about watching the dog's body language to make sure that he doesn't feel defensive.

_Most_—not all—dogs show some signs before actually biting in _most_—not all—situations. Dogs are hard wired to try to defuse physical confrontations by signaling their fear or aggression. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Wolves who start physical confrontations unnecessarily are more likely to die, and dogs who engage in physical confrontations with each other or people (historically and today) are more likely to be culled.

So most of the time, the dog is signaling discomfort or aggression long before the bite, if you know what to look for. So when I'm supervising a dog and a kid, I teach the kid not to invade the dog's space, not to cause him discomfort, and not to intimidate him, and I let the dog leave the interaction if he wants to.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Charliethree said:


> I gained a lot of respect that day for how fast a dog bite can happen and keep that in mind when my dogs are interacting with anyone other than me.* The stakes are way too high, to risk being 'wrong' in the assumption that a dog will not bite.*


I think this is really important for us as dog owners to keep in mind. The consequences of being wrong are potentially just too serious for others, our dogs and ourselves, to be 100% sure.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

And on the subject of trust, I have two dogs with rock-solid temperaments here at our house, and I don't trust any dog 100%. I cannot imagine my dogs biting a child, but the number of dog bite stories that start with "he was a perfect angel _until..._" is a very real thing in my mind. I know my dogs would signal their discomfort and try to escape situations rather than bite, but any animal—including a person—who perceives a real threat will lash out to protect himself. It's instinct. And dogs can misperceive threats. So I trust my dogs more than any other dogs I know, but I don't trust them 100%.


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## Cuddysmom (Feb 6, 2014)

My dog? 5000%. I'd bite someone before he does 


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## randomBvR (Dec 26, 2013)

I 100% trust my dog to note bite anyone (other than puppy play mouth when she gets excited... Working on that) 

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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

As far as Axl is concerned, during puppy hood, he viewed most humans as two legged chew toys with the exception of me.

After reaching adulthood which I consider to be 2 years, I have seen him tolerate various indignities including being jumped on, by young children who were poorly supervised without so much as a snarl. At least once a month a child will approach him and try to pry a disc or ring out of his mouth and he will simply lay down passively and refuse to release the object. He almost appears amused by it. When I see a child approach him, I _*immediately*_ go on scene and supervise closely, alert for subtle signs of agitation on his part as well as to prevent the child from doing any harm to him. I also instruct the child assuming they are capable of understanding, (and speak English), that it is *NOT* advisable to approach a strange dog without first asking both the owner and a parent's permission. That being said, I do not trust him 100% around anyone except me. I have seen the level of violence he is capable of, and speed at which he can inflict it when provoked or attacked by another dog and I am not taking any chances. To be clear, I have _*never*_ seen him react that way toward *any* human, only other dogs, and *only* when *defending* himself. He minds his own business until another dog makes that impossible, at which time he goes ballistic. Unlike some other posts I read in this thread, he will absolutely defend himself from other *dogs* at all times and I wouldn't want it any other way. He is a very dominant male, always was, probably always will be. He is also extremely well trained.

Earlier today, during a session of "mud disc", a (Russian) teenage girl entered the park with what appeared to be a Lab mix that I estimated to be around a year and a half old (unleashed). I could tell it was still a puppy but it was the same size as Axl. One look at its posture and I knew right away that this dog was trouble. I called Axl to me and grabbed his collar. The young dog approached and they were nose to nose. The instant I saw that dog's lip begin to curl, I yanked Axl back out of it's reach and quite frankly, saved that puppy a painful lesson in manners that Ax was about to give him. I then "invited" her to please leave and take her unruly dog with her and made Ax sit next to me until they were out of the immediate area. They returned about 15 minutes later, this time on a leash and Ax completely ignored them even though the dog was still barking and snarling but from a distance.

Puffy is the most docile, harmless dog I have ever been around. I trust him as much as I believe any animal can be trusted and sometimes I wonder if he even has the ability to get nasty but I know that he does, like any 85 lb dog with teeth. Frankly, the biggest danger with him being around children is that he will bowl them over with his exuberance and clumsiness. I was playing with him the other night and he whipped his head around and drilled me accidentally across the bridge of the nose with his massive solid skull. I saw STARS. A child would have been injured if he received that same shot to the nose which was nothing more than puppy excitement.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> When I volunteered for our local GR rescue, my partner and I were attacked by one of the dogs we took in. It was, as you say, lightening fast. _Unbelievably_ fast! And we were BOTH bitten multiple times, and deeply, before we could react. Forgetting how frightening it was, it was _very_ impressive from a predator perspective.
> 
> This is why I say that you cannot "supervise" a dog. You _have_ to trust it, or get it out of the room. When people tell me their dog can't be left alone with children, I think, "What do you think you're going to do, except clean up the mess afterward?" They think they can prevent a bite. They can't. Dogs are too fast. By the time it's started it's already over.


Dana - you were referring to a rescue... meaning a dog who may have been dumped by the previous owners for temperament reasons, and this dog was in a home with strangers and probably freaked out or trying to figure out his place in your home. 

Dogs coming out of rescues are not going to have the most fun temperments to begin with, but add to that the stress and anxiety of being in a strange place with strangers. That's a time bomb.

Dogs who you have raised since puppyhood, you should know that dog well enough to be able to trust it 100% if that dog is trustworthy... or be cautious because you know your dog's temperament and limits. If somebody can't say 100% that their dogs would never bite or suddenly snap on them, I would guess they have seen warning signs already in their dogs. 

As far as the issue with dogs and children and what you are going to do to prevent a bite - the smart dog owner is not going to set that dog up once they know the dog will bite. They will know their dog's body language better than anyone.


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## Cuddysmom (Feb 6, 2014)

Alpha- he sounds like mine! A big, clumsy, mutt!!


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Ask a mail carrier or delivery driver how many times they have been bitten by the dog that doesn't bite.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Wendi said:


> Ask a mail carrier or delivery driver how many times they have been bitten by the dog that doesn't bite.


We had a UPS delivery at Christmas at 8 PM. I had just let the dogs out ....they went nuts when UPS came. I called the dogs back and the guy literally threw the package at my husband... Mine would not bite, but why should he believe me? I wouldn't....


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I must add that I cannot stand it when parents let their children run up to dogs and pet them. I teach my kids to never do this. Ever. I don't let my son pet dogs we don't know. Seeing my daughter get attacked and bit changed me. It was the worst thing i have experienced with one of my children. I had nightmares for months and would sob at the drop of a hat. So no my kids don't pet unfamiliar dogs and not many that I do know. When I walk Thor it amazes me how parents let their kids run up to him and pet him. Glad for them that kids are his very favorite thing in the world. His favorite things are in this order : us, stuffies, children, adults and cats. I am training him to sit when approached to be pet so it's not a bad thing on my part for kids to come running. It's a training opportunity. But those parents don't know he loves kids. He is huge. One bite from a dog like him and it could be fatal. I really appreciate it when I encounter parents who stop their kids and ask if it's okay. 


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Shellbug said:


> I must add that I cannot stand it when parents let their children run up to dogs and pet them. I teach my kids to never do this. Ever. I don't let my son pet dogs we don't know. Seeing my daughter get attacked and bit changed me. It was the worst thing i have experienced with one of my children. I had nightmares for months and would sob at the drop of a hat. So no my kids don't pet unfamiliar dogs and not many that I do know. When I walk Thor it amazes me how parents let their kids run up to him and pet him. Glad for them that kids are his very favorite thing in the world. His favorite things are in this order : us, stuffies, children, adults and cats. I am training him to sit when approached to be pet so it's not a bad thing on my part for kids to come running. It's a training opportunity. But those parents don't know he loves kids. He is huge. One bite from a dog like him and it could be fatal. I really appreciate it when I encounter parents who stop their kids and ask if it's okay.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's purely common sense. Nobody with half a brain would allow or encourage a small child to approach a strange dog (especially a large one) without at least trying to verify if it is "friendly" or if that behavior is welcomed by the owner. The problem is that there are a LOT of Russian immigrants near this particular park and their sensibilities are quite a bit different from those of the "typical" American. My response on the rare occasions that I am asked, is always the same, "he would be on a leash if he wasn't", but there are PLENTY of irresponsible idiots, (around here anyway, and a good percentage of them Russian) that let large, untrained, aggressive dogs roam free - trust me Ax has "met" most of them, that I wouldn't want within 100 yards of any child.

BTW it is *not* my intent to disparage any ethnic or cultural background. I am merely stating facts.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> Dana - you were referring to a rescue... meaning a dog who may have been dumped by the previous owners for temperament reasons, and this dog was in a home with strangers and probably freaked out or trying to figure out his place in your home.
> 
> Dogs coming out of rescues are not going to have the most fun temperments to begin with, but add to that the stress and anxiety of being in a strange place with strangers. That's a time bomb.
> 
> ...



Wow. No.

I'm sorry and I don't mean to argue with you or single your posts out but that statement is one I can't let go. Your post alludes to my dog having given signs that they will bite simply because I can't and won't promise 100% of all their reactions 100% of the time in an unforeseen future.

No, Max is the stereotypical "I love the world and the world loves me" golden. And Billy, in his 12 years, has never curled a lip except at the cats when they knead on his side and they hurt him. So that's not my point.

My point is that my dogs are dogs and not robots. They have not beem programmed. They have been trained and they have been bred for temperament. But I cannot put my hand over my heart and the other over a Bible and promise their behaviour. They are dogs, they animals. 

It is almost a cliche, the "He never bit anyone before this." Almost universally after a bite from a family dog, that's what you hear. 

And there is nothing in this world that I have 100% absolute faith on. Because what I've learned in life is that the unexpected has a nasty way of happening. 

So no, I have never seen a single signal from my dogs that they would bite anyone. But as sentient beings separate from myself, I cannot 100% predict every reaction. Dogs are not robots, no matter how well trained, no matter how well bred. Imagining them to be does them a great disservice and the assumption that I can predict behaviour on an animal with 1.5 inch fangs is dangerous.


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

This is such an interesting thread and so glad the question has been asked.

Knowing we would retire within a few years when we got our two goldens I worked my rear off to socialize, take all the training classes we could and twice daily took them into the city to socialize and my two did wonderfully. Then we retired.

Now my two get the best of full country life and we have training periods each day, but they have changed. Now they are daily walked in pastures where we meet wildlife, some big & some small. They have learned to be much more alert, much more I see them working as a team as they scout out the pastures. In town, under leash, I would have said I trust them to never hurt or bite a soul. Now after a year of living in the boondocks and learning skills they would never learn in a city, I would have to say I don't know! 

I know mine will flush out and chase off animals as we walk, they now bark when a car drives down our private road, they take a second to decide if a new person is one they can lick to death, or quietly sit by my side and just watch. I find I trust their instincts and look to them to see if in new situations they are happy and content or on guard..and I take heed of their body signals. They are still the most gentle kids, but now they have matured beyond the house pet dogs they were to my companions and trustworthy dogs I think they were meant to be. They are lousy guard dogs, but I know if bad people came, they would let me know they were not happy with the people being there. 

I would never let a child/children be around my dogs without me being right there. My dogs have little experience with young kids and would probably play too hard with them. It is our one failing, the lack of children around. Nothing around here but nature and cattle!


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## tine434 (Nov 24, 2013)

I agree with this. I don't think my dog would ever do anything without letting me know. And it's my job to handle their feelings. Many owners are oblivious to their dog's signals and I think that does contribute significantly to many 'random' 'never before now' bites. All dogs should be respected for their ability to bite.




Charliethree said:


> Nope, it is my responsibility as a dog owner to understand that every dog CAN bite, and I should not assume they will not bite regardless of the situation. However I do trust 100% that my dogs will tell me how they feel about any situation or environment and they trust that I will listen to them.


I'll also add that I raised a lab mix from a puppy when I was much younger, my first apartment on my own at 17, and she never showed any aggression or uneasiness with people.... We were at the river one day and a drunk guy came up asking to throw the ball with her. He was nice as can be, although drunk, and wasn't threatening outwardly but after Millie chased the ball and began to come back she growled like no one's business at him. I got her to bring the ball to me instead of him and parted ways, but something about THAT man or alcohol or something.... Never before that and never after did it happen, so that began teaching me about how much dogs do need to be respected and I began researching a lot more at that point.

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## Golden Trainer (Oct 6, 2012)

I would say yes, because my dog went through a terrible fear period where he was terrified of people coming up to him. In his panic he wanted to bolt and if he was going to bite it would have happened then but he preferred just getting away. 
Now that doesn't mean I would ever try to put him in a situation where he was afraid and would never leave him with kids or anyone I didn't trust. I would avoid any situation in which he was not completely comfortable and instead work on him getting comfortable in small increments. He has come a long way and now that he is very social with people I have not seen him try to get away or do anything that would make me nervous with people even if he is a tiny bit nervous.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I totally agree with you, but I think the point of supervision is to make sure that situations that might cause a bite don't happen. You are absolutely right that a bite can happen faster than a person could possibly react, but *when I think about supervising dogs and kids, I think about making sure the kids aren't doing anything that might provoke a bite, and I think about watching the dog's body language to make sure that he doesn't feel defensive.
> *
> _Most_—not all—dogs show some signs before actually biting in _most_—not all—situations. Dogs are hard wired to try to defuse physical confrontations by signaling their fear or aggression. It makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Wolves who start physical confrontations unnecessarily are more likely to die, and dogs who engage in physical confrontations with each other or people (historically and today) are more likely to be culled.
> 
> So most of the time, the dog is signaling discomfort or aggression long before the bite, if you know what to look for. So when I'm supervising a dog and a kid, I teach the kid not to invade the dog's space, not to cause him discomfort, and not to intimidate him, and I let the dog leave the interaction if he wants to.


 YES! This is exactly what I was thinking about when I supervised my nieces with Tesia. I was making sure their excited little shrieks didn't get too high and loud - or that she wasn't feeling too smothered by them. It was prevention way before it would ever get to the moment of a bite. I would regularly say, give her some space, and I would also give Tesia breaks from them. She was sweet as a little lamb, but I felt I needed to be fair to her. She was endlessly patient, but she was not used to being around two little girls 24-7. 



Shellbug said:


> *I must add that I cannot stand it when parents let their children run up to dogs and pet them.* I teach my kids to never do this. Ever. I don't let my son pet dogs we don't know. Seeing my daughter get attacked and bit changed me. It was the worst thing i have experienced with one of my children. I had nightmares for months and would sob at the drop of a hat. So no my kids don't pet unfamiliar dogs and not many that I do know. When I walk Thor it amazes me how parents let their kids run up to him and pet him. Glad for them that kids are his very favorite thing in the world. His favorite things are in this order : us, stuffies, children, adults and cats. I am training him to sit when approached to be pet so it's not a bad thing on my part for kids to come running. It's a training opportunity. But those parents don't know he loves kids. He is huge. One bite from a dog like him and it could be fatal. I really appreciate it when I encounter parents who stop their kids and ask if it's okay.


 I was so impressed when I first had Shala and was out every day multiple times a day with her - and almost every single parent with kids who we met asked me first if their child could pat her, or had their child ask. Like seriously, 95% of them. I thought, the message is getting out - and that's a really good thing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lilliam said:


> Wow. No.
> 
> Your post alludes to my dog having given signs that they will bite simply because I can't and won't promise 100% of all their reactions 100% of the time in an unforeseen future..


1. I did not see your previous post. I was responding to Dana's post if anything.  

2. I still believe that for the most part if you KNOW YOUR DOG, you can trust he will not bite you or family members outside of extreme circumstances. And then it is up to you the owner to know the signs of a dog's stress or pain level so even in those extreme circumstances (example dog dying from a burst tumor or renal failure or hit by a car, etc), there is no bite. 

Having been around dogs all my life, I know which ones are bite threats. This includes goldens - and goes back to our experience with our first two goldens who were bite threats. 

People on this thread and elsewhere are being too PC to the point of making excuses for bad temperament in this breed. This includes well bred goldens who should not be bred if the owners deem them a little hard as far temperament. That's the danger I see as far as this whole conversation with people talking about all dogs biting at some point or whatnot. Biting in itself (referring to actual bite with aggressive intent) is even an extreme sign. Where I am looking as far the line is dogs who resource guard and show a hard temperament. 

Young golden retrievers under the age of 2 - that is the testing and education stage of their life. This is the time period that you are learning everything about these dogs, particularly their behavioral patterns. By the time they are the same age as my Bertie, you should know whether or not these dogs are likely to bite if pushed - in normal circumstances (resource guarding, defensive posturing when hugged or bugged by kids or adults, whatever). 

In my opinion.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> 1. I did not see your previous post. I was responding to Dana's post if anything.
> 
> 2. I still believe that for the most part if you KNOW YOUR DOG, you can trust he will not bite you or family members outside of extreme circumstances. And then it is up to you the owner to know the signs of a dog's stress or pain level so even in those extreme circumstances (example dog dying from a burst tumor or renal failure or hit by a car, etc), there is no bite.
> 
> ...



My Max's breeder absolutely bred for temperament. Her record is impeccable. I am not being PC nor making excuses. Billy is a ranch bred dog bred to work. As gentle as Max. And yet, they are both animals. Both make decisions all the time. Bred for the right decision and trained for the right decision, but they are in fact willful decisions that dictate either avoidance to negative stimulus or aggression to negative stimulus.

ANY dog can be pushed to bite. ANY breed. ANY individual dog. The best, most carefully trained dog with the most impeccable breeding and training can be pushed to bite under wrong handling, wrong circumstances, or illness. We ask them to understand our language but many of us are oblivious to theirs. And the trigger doesn't have to be as dramatic as a hurt dog or an abused dog fighting for itself, it sometimes is as unforeseen and as invisible as early symptoms of hypothyroidism. Or a dog who is losing his hearing and is startled out of sleep by a toddler falling on him. Or even me, as a klutz, falling over a sleeping Cassie once....no, she did not bite, but I did startle her out of a dead sleep in a very violent way and she could have reacted badly.

Anyway, peace out. I don't want to give you the impression that I'm arguing with you at all. We simply differ in our opinions. 

And at 57, having lived with dogs my entire life, I've seen many a purebred and many a mutt come in and out of my life.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I can't say I agree, but I don't plan on arguing. I guess I understand your feelings on this since you come from the border collie world. If there is any breed out there that I would never trust 100% - that would be it.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Megora said:


> I can't say I agree, but I don't plan on arguing. *I guess I understand your feelings on this since you come from the border collie world.* If there is any breed out there that* I would never trust 100% - that would be it*.


WOW.

THAT was uncalled for.

I'm out.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

It was not meant as an attack. It was honest to goodness truth. There are some breeds out there who are high strung and unpredictable. Border collies would be one of those breeds. I have never personally met a 100% trustworthy one. In fact, the only nice one that I know of had been on a "death list" of sorts because of aggression. His owner is a very special lady who rehabilitated him and he is the sweet guy possible. Any aggression, I suspect stemmed primarily from fear.

One thing I should have added to that list.... with Jacks having a sensitive/anxious temperament to begin with, and then his thyroid issue really making him nuts.... there were times where he would go tunneling into our bedroom closet and the only way to get him out of that closet was grabbing by the ruff and physically dragging back out of the closet before he could get impossibly wedged in there. Even in these "throws of anxiety" in which he was being manhandled and tested to the extreme, he never growled ever. I don't even think he knows how to raise his lips. I don't his lips work that way. <- This is what we wanted in family pets after going through what we did with Charmy and Sammy.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> We had a UPS delivery at Christmas at 8 PM. I had just let the dogs out ....they went nuts when UPS came. I called the dogs back and the guy literally threw the package at my husband... Mine would not bite, but why should he believe me? I wouldn't....


LOL Roxxi loves our mailman, so much so, she whines when he comes because she wants out to see him. He will even come into the yard when she is out so he can pet her. 

The way our yard is set, up there is a side gate the dogs can look at who ever is coming through the front gate and I have seen temp. carriers actually stand on the front walk seeing if they can get through the side gate before they will enter the yard.


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Megora said:


> 1. I did not see your previous post. I was responding to Dana's post if anything.
> 
> 2. I still believe that* for the most part* if you KNOW YOUR DOG, you can trust he will not bite you or family members outside of extreme circumstances. And then it is up to you the owner to know the signs of a dog's stress or pain level so even in those extreme circumstances (example dog dying from a burst tumor or renal failure or hit by a car, etc), there is no bite.
> 
> ...


Well there ya go, you just said it yourself, "for the most part."


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Wendi said:


> Well there ya go, you just said it yourself, "for the most part."


Manner of speech. 

One funny thing to share - when Jacks was a puppy and we were taking him and Danny outside every hour or so to play in the snow. They were playfighting in the front yard - a 10 week old puppy and a nice white faced senior, right?

The meter man came up the driveway and absolutely panicked when that 10 week old puppy came running to meet him. 


Service guys are no judge of character when it comes to dogs. : Hardly blame them since those dogs left outside most of the time tend to develop turf behaviors..... but a 10 week old golden retriever puppy? Scary?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I would never 100% guarantee any behavior of any living, breathing being.

Could I say 99% sure? Absolutely. I am 99.99% certain that when I feed Flip tonight, he will eat his dinner. But there is always that chance that he might be sick, or secretly got into food already and stuffed himself, or heck, there's even that tiniest, teensiest possibility that he might just decide they don't feel like eating tonight confused. Flip has never, not even once, in the four and a half years I've known him, not immediately cleaned his bowl, but to say I know 100% that he will tonight just isn't true.

I feel it's the same saying a dog would never bite. It doesn't matter if they've never given a sign, they are the sweetest dogs ever, they were bred and raised right. I still don't believe you can have a 100% guarantee. It's why I hold their heads if the vet is having to do something painful to them. I've never had a dog snap, bite, growl, anything at a vet no matter how much pain they are currently in, but I'm not going to ever 100% guarantee they won't.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Megora said:


> I can't say I agree, but I don't plan on arguing. I guess I understand your feelings on this since you come from the border collie world. If there is any breed out there that I would never trust 100% - that would be it.


:no: While the border collies are stubborn they are not unpredictable! Even with our BC/GR mix, he did not like someone blowing in his ears. When DH's son did that (simply by mistake) Jack snapped but did not bite. 

IMHO while temperament is a factor it mostly comes down to training, training acceptable behavior, training soft mouth. Any breed can be trained/allowed to bite. The Golden Retrievers are one of the highest on the bite list and I attribute that to people who just think because they own a Golden Retriever they come out of the womb trained. 

As far as the post above about dogs biting other dogs (not sure if that was intended in the original OP). Rose was attacked by other dogs, she did not fight except to get off and leave. She was exposed to a dog fight in class where this mastiff next to her attacked a little dog. She did not engage in that fight even though it was right next to her - I could trust her enough to be able to pull the back legs of the mastiff to pull it off the little dog. I only felt comfortable in that situation since both the owner and the trainer were present to hold the dog off. It was not the same in our incident at the park where this lab started charging towards us off leash with the owner several feet away screaming at us her dog is friendly while he was growling and snarling at me. DH had to hold Rose back, I had no doubt she would have fought with that dog knowing I was in danger.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> :no: While the border collies are stubborn they are not unpredictable! Even with our BC/GR mix, he did not like someone blowing in his ears. When DH's son did that (simply by mistake) Jack snapped but did not bite.


I'm around purebred border collies - and they can be very unpredictable and edgy as far as temperament. I think a lot of it has to do with them being very high strung. I can't imagine any BC owner saying their dogs are 100% trustworthy. 



> The Golden Retrievers are one of the highest on the bite list and I attribute that to people who just think because they own a Golden Retriever they come out of the womb trained.


Oh absolutely! And you have more golden retrievers in inexperienced "dumb new owner" homes. Ours was one of those - and we had to "Grow up" very quickly as dog owners because we had Charmy who had his edgy temperament and then Sammy with multiple bites before he was 2. 

Most dog bites happen in homes like ours was at the time. With people who don't know how to read their dogs. Their dogs may seemingly go from "peace" to SNAP in a second, but in reality most dogs posture and declare themselves uncomfortable and tense long before the bites happen. 

I've never owned a dog aggressive golden. Even Charmy and Sammy with all their faults only directed the growling and snapping towards humans as opposed to other dogs. Charmy had no opinion of other dogs - he didn't care either way. Sammy was very submissive around other dogs and he was generally the one who had dogs chasing after him to attack him (but he was always too slippery and fast for them to get anywhere near him).

*** When I'm at the vet with my guys, I generally am holding one dog still for the vet (they both like wiggling and turning around to lick the vet's face) and reaching over to keep the other dog from climbing into the vet's lap. My guys love going to the vet. It was one of those things I really wanted to reinforce after we had Danny dealing with so much unpleasantness in his early life regarding vets pulling his painful legs around and pinning him for xrays. Each one of our dogs were more likely to release their anals at the vet as opposed to biting.


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## Tosh's Legacy (Oct 2, 2013)

tippykayak said:


> And on the subject of trust, I have two dogs with rock-solid temperaments here at our house, and I don't trust any dog 100%. I cannot imagine my dogs biting a child, but the number of dog bite stories that start with "he was a perfect angel _until..._" is a very real thing in my mind. I know my dogs would signal their discomfort and try to escape situations rather than bite, but any animal—including a person—who perceives a real threat will lash out to protect himself. It's instinct. And dogs can misperceive threats. So I trust my dogs more than any other dogs I know, but I don't trust them 100%.


Very well said. Both human and dog psyches run so deep, one never knows what button will be pushed to cause a reaction. Golden Retrievers are gentle, people oriented dogs, not generally prone to biting. But they have teeth; they are dogs -- therefore they can bite. As a breed they are not aggressive, nor are they habitual biters; however, each dog is an individual personality and should be treated as an individual.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Megora said:


> Dana - you were referring to a rescue... meaning a dog who may have been dumped by the previous owners for temperament reasons, and this dog was in a home with strangers and probably freaked out or trying to figure out his place in your home.
> 
> Dogs coming out of rescues are not going to have the most fun temperments to begin with, but add to that the stress and anxiety of being in a strange place with strangers. That's a time bomb.
> 
> ...


Oh I agree completely, and I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I was just pointing out how incredibly fast dog bites occur; too fast to stop them once they are underway.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> Oh I agree completely, and I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I was just pointing out how incredibly fast dog bites occur; too fast to stop them once they are underway.


Oh I agree.... which is why knowing your dog - or reserving some caution if still in doubt - is wise. You have to really know how to read your dogs to be able to say without a doubt they will not bite or reach that point. 

I think most bites are avoidable - whether by management or training. 

We trade with our dogs 100% of the time. The dogs know that while they have to give up something they want, they will get something in exchange. Always. 

One difference with our dogs from Danny through Bertie is if they have a bone in their mouth and it's going down their throat - we are grabbing their mouths and sticking a hand down their throat to fetch the bone out. 

You have to trust a dog will not involuntarily snap when you do that. With Danny we trusted him implicitly. And I trust the two guys I have now. 

Charmy and Sammy? We did not put our hands anywhere near their mouths if they had something in there. Maybe they wouldn't have bit, but there was no guarantee they would not. In fact there was a strong likelihood that they would.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

The 100 per cent thing got me to thinking about a couple of things I've seen and heard about over the last few years. I heard a very well known and successful obedience trainer and competitor say her dog had 100 per cent recall. Not long after that I observed her call her dog for a recall. The dog ran out of the ring and dove under a chair. She called, several times, had to physically go get the dog by the collar and walk the dog back into the ring. I have no idea why the dog refused to come, but there went her assertion that her dog had 100 percent recall. On a more serious note, a friend and her husband owned two GSD's, a spayed female and a neutered male. The female always appeared a bit edgy, and skittish. The male was very stable, around other dogs and people. They also had a little boy, I think around three or so. One day my friend was going into the house with the male dog and her little boy thru the laundry room. Apparently the little boy bumped into the male dog from the back, and out of the blue the dog turned around and bit the little boy on the head. The little boy was bitten severely on the top of his head, they stopped counting how many stitches it took to close up the wounds. They 100 per cent thought this dog was reliable and stable around the child, they had never had any inclination not to trust it. Thank goodness the little boy survived and is fine today. I believe after the waiting period they euthanized the dog, it was a very sad situation. I compare declaring that any of my dogs are 100 per cent trustworthy never to bite to what I learned raising my children, especially when they were teenagers, to the declaration that "my kid would never do that." The minute you make that statement is when your child does what you said he or she would never do.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I would never 100% trust a german shepherd (both my parents grew up with GSD's).... what a sad story.


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## Cookie's Mom (Oct 14, 2013)

I trusted Cookie 99.9% not to bite ever but I also respected her enough to recognize when she wanted some space. If she was ever uncomfortable, she would always leave or give a warning growl (when in pain). The only time she ever bite someone was right after her amputation surgery. My dad was having trouble putting on her e-collar and she was getting really annoyed so she gave several warning growls but he didn't pay attention. Finally she snapped and even my dad admitted that it was his fault for not listening to her.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Cookie's Mom said:


> I trusted Cookie 99.9% not to bite ever but I also respected her enough to recognize when she wanted some space. If she was ever uncomfortable, she would always leave or give a warning growl. The only time she ever bite someone was right after her amputation surgery. My dad was having trouble putting on her e-collar and she was getting really annoyed so she gave several warning growls but he didn't pay attention. Finally she snapped and even my dad admitted that it was his fault for not listening to her.


I'm going to be very careful here, because I don't want this to come across like pointing at your dog for not being ideal temperament in my brain.... but this falls in line with what I was thinking about yesterday between this thread and a conversation I saw elsewhere. Actually there have been two other conversations that I've seen in the last week. Lot of people thinking about temperament right now.

And it grated me that there was a breeder or two who basically said an ideal temperament as far as a golden retriever - meaning a dog they would breed - would be a dog who stands his ground. Meaning they are more acceptant of dogs who may growl when in a situation like you described above or snap. 

And my gut feeling is dogs like this should be neutered and spayed - and that's it. It should be recognized that there are characteristics that are not becoming for the breed - including growling and snapping for any reason at all. 

I know people like to make excuses for growling - like some kind of warning system that a dog is going to snap. But seriously speaking - unless a dog's leg is broken and you are wiggling it around or something, I don't think this dog should be anywhere NEAR snapping.


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## Cookie's Mom (Oct 14, 2013)

Megora, I know you're making a point about temperament in general and I totally agree that breeding testy temperaments is not ideal. I've met some goldens that were aggressive and owners have even warned me to not go near them with Cookie because they will bite. It use to boggle my mind that any golden could be aggressive in any manner unless it was hurt! 

But I do want to say that the only time Cookie really growled was when she was in pain. All her life, she's been great with other animals, children, elderly, and strangers. We could hug her and kiss her on her cheek- she will just lay there and enjoy us. One of my favorite memories of her was randomly meeting a big crowd of kids at the playground and every pair of hands touching her on every part of her body. One kid was even flapping her ears and Cookie just stood there and enjoyed every second of the attention they lavished on her. =)


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Cookie's Mom said:


> Megora, I know you're making a point about temperament in general and I totally agree that breeding testy temperaments is not ideal.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes - exactly. Thanks for not getting mad at me for using your post as an example. Behavior like she exhibited is not the worst thing - especially since she likely never had any intention of making contact when she snapped, it was all reactive. 

But my gut feeling really is we get into this breed because they should not have testy temperaments or react to very minor things like she did. If they do, well, fine. You know your dogs limits. 

I just flipped when I saw a respected breeder basically say that standing their ground and some "grr" moments are not a big deal. :doh:


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## Goldenhopeful (Dec 21, 2013)

I absolutely would never trust any dog 100%. I think anyone who thinks their dog would never bite anyone... Is being naive. I mean that in a very respectful way... But all dogs have the capability to bite. You can't be 100% sure. Now you can trust them but you should always supervise a dog with children and people you don't know well- because it's not the dog you have to be concerned about... It's he humans and how they act and treat the dog. I would never let any dog be around my child unsupervised no matter how much I trusted the dog.


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## Cookie's Mom (Oct 14, 2013)

Megora said:


> Yes - exactly. Thanks for not getting mad at me for using your post as an example. Behavior like she exhibited is not the worst thing - especially since she likely never had any intention of making contact when she snapped, it was all reactive.
> 
> But my gut feeling really is we get into this breed because they should not have testy temperaments or react to very minor things like she did. If they do, well, fine. You know your dogs limits.


Lol well I would say that dealing with the pain of osteosarcoma, amputation, and learning to do everything on three legs would make any dog unhappy and easier to snap/growl. I think minor things in my opinion would be like stepping on a tail or a paw which I've done many times and she never snapped or growled. Just gave me a :uhoh:, like mom watch where you step please!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Goldenhopeful said:


> I absolutely would never trust any dog 100%. I think anyone who thinks their dog would never bite anyone... Is being naive. I mean that in a very respectful way... But all dogs have the capability to bite. You can't be 100% sure. Now you can trust them but you should always supervise a dog with children and people you don't know well- because it's not the dog you have to be concerned about... It's he humans and how they act and treat the dog. I would never let any dog be around my child unsupervised no matter how much I trusted the dog.


I respectfully disagree. Yes a dog will never reach the point of reasoning. But I would never leave my dogs alone. I am only speaking as a person who is in constant proximity of it's dogs. I never leave my dogs outside unsupervised, I would never leave them with someone I and they do not know/trust. In my situation I DO trust my dogs 100%, why because I am 99.9% with them. I do not take vacations where my dogs cannot be with me, I do not think of ME time without my dogs. If I cannot go somewhere without my dogs I stay home or go to the cabin. If my DD cannot watch them when I am on a biz trip I simply do not go. My dogs come above money, fun time or whatever else someone is fancy about.
Edit to add: If someone does not feel comfortable around my dogs they either leave or my dogs are put behind the pet gates. If my dogs have to be put behind pet gates because of the humans, the same humans are not invited back until they grow up. Because I know my dogs would never harm them.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Shellbug said:


> I must add that I cannot stand it when parents let their children run up to dogs and pet them. I teach my kids to never do this. Ever. I don't let my son pet dogs we don't know. Seeing my daughter get attacked and bit changed me. It was the worst thing i have experienced with one of my children. I had nightmares for months and would sob at the drop of a hat. So no my kids don't pet unfamiliar dogs and not many that I do know. When I walk Thor it amazes me how parents let their kids run up to him and pet him. Glad for them that kids are his very favorite thing in the world. His favorite things are in this order : us, stuffies, children, adults and cats. I am training him to sit when approached to be pet so it's not a bad thing on my part for kids to come running. It's a training opportunity. But those parents don't know he loves kids. He is huge. One bite from a dog like him and it could be fatal. I really appreciate it when I encounter parents who stop their kids and ask if it's okay.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I yell. I have absolutely no problem yelling "STOP!" at a kid who's running up to Max. Parents can get mad, I don't care. Max will lick them into oblivion because he adores kids, but not every dog would do the same. And if parents don't want to teach their kids that, I'm more than happy to do it. And don't tell me, "he's a GOLDEN! They all LOVE kids!" No, they DON'T!


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I posted this in another thread and I think it might be appropriate here, too

My Dog Bit My Child


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I was at a dog show today, and at one handler's setup there were a bunch of dogs in ex-pens, and there were parents actually encouraging their five or six small children to run up and put their hands inside to pet the dogs, like it was a petting zoo. Fortunately for these kids' fingers, they were all well-behaved Goldens. But jeesh, how stupid can you get?


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

There are very few humans that I trust 100% and even fewer that I trust with the lives of my dogs. That's what it comes down to, IMHO. If the dog makes a mistake and bites someone, the dog may be euthanized. That's a terribly harsh consequence and one that I'm simply not willing to risk, no matter how well I know and trust my dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Cookie's Mom said:


> Lol well I would say that dealing with the pain of osteosarcoma, amputation, and learning to do everything on three legs would make any dog unhappy and easier to snap/growl. I think minor things in my opinion would be like stepping on a tail or a paw which I've done many times and she never snapped or growled. Just gave me a :uhoh:, like mom watch where you step please!


I'm sorry.... in that case, I think she had every right to be as crabby as she wanted. I'm sure she was also on meds during that time and that will affect them.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My golden Raleigh broke his leg in the woods behind the Yale Golf Course, and allowed three high school kids to carry him 1/2 mile to the car with no biting or snarling. I think there are some dog s who can be trusted as much as a person not to bite even under extreme provocation. I understand the idea of bite threshold, and every dog has one. However, I have had goldens whose bite thresholds are beyond some humans I know.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> I was at a dog show today, and at one handler's setup there were a bunch of dogs in ex-pens, and there were parents actually encouraging their five or six small children to run up and put their hands inside to pet the dogs, like it was a petting zoo. Fortunately for these kids' fingers, they were all well-behaved Goldens. But jeesh, how stupid can you get?


People are really dumb with kids, and I dont get it. We got invited to the Maine Mall for a day of Therapy Dogs and Therapy Horses( yup, right in the mall). While I was chatting with some people about Tally and letting them pet him, I saw a mom put a young baby right on Copley's back for a "pony ride" ( he was "off duty" in his x pen, and I was rotating dogs). Thankfully, Copley adores kids and he is a big strong solid dog, and he just wagged, but I was beside myself. They just stuck the baby on his back, and had never even met the dog before.


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## Suni52 (Jan 18, 2012)

I would say I'm about 97% sure that my dog would never bite anyone. We were at a very crowded park yesterday where there were tons of kids, some on bikes, scooters, just plain running. They were whizzing by us pretty close and pretty fast. It was chaotic, but Sadie didn't seem flustered at all. There were even a lot of other dogs there on leashes and she was perfectly behaved. But the thought is always in the back of my mind, and I watch her like a hawk when around other kids.
If it did happen, it would never be out of aggression, but out of fear or pain if they hurt her. I don't think I'd ever feel 100% sure.


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