# Agility jump height question, WWYD



## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Agility peeps....what would you do?

Fin & I completed his Intermediate (Open) Standard title today (finally!), and still need two more Intermediate JWW Q's (so really we just have one Q in intermediate). We are really struggling with amazing runs, and then one (sometimes two) rails.

As I have posted before we just began competing CKC agility this year, but have had these rough few weekends of NQs. We whipped through Novice in two trials, but have been stuck in Intermediate for four trials (10+ runsin each) now.

It was a small trial group today and I totally believe people were trying to be helpful, but it was mentioned that I could or should consider dropping Fin to selected so he could jump at 16 inches (he jumps at 20 inches and is 21.5 inches at the shoulder with stumpy legs, god love him). I did not even know dropping him was possible! I later learned that to do so I would have to start over in Novice. I guess this is different then in the AKC where I was told I could just drop him and keep going (or maybe at least finish intermediate then drop). I have Fin dropped a jump height in our other series or circuit here (AAC), but learning it was an option in the CKC was great to hear! Everyone said usually what the AKC does, the CKC eventually follows, but of course not guaranteed (who knows) and timeline is unknown if the dropping and starting thing would ever change. 

The comments were regarding how he jumps and I guess he doesn't jump well, and that since we are really just doing this for fun (he was not bred for agility!) and his conformation faults were discussed (I dont even want to try to repeat what they said it was all a blur after an unreal run and the 2nd last bar came down). The comments don't bug me at all, totally fair and seemed to make sense! Fins bar knocking is not consistent, we have tried me hugging the jumps with him, going slow, going fast, running ahead. Sometimes it is the first jump, or the last, sometimes really my bad and crossing improperly, but other times there really is no excuse for it.

I know I have the option to be patient, run less runs over a weekend, I struggle with either side of things so wanted to put this out to get some other thoughts or advice! We are doing this for fun, I have no hopes of taking this to a super competitive level. I would assume if I dropped him beginning our next trial and started over that we would get the Novice Qs quickly again and at least be in intermediate again before too long. His health, short and long term, will 16 inches be better on his joints (I dont think there is any argument here!), what is this all worth sort of thing! I feel like I am clenching on to these Qs that we have earned and dont want to let them go and start over, but then I think of his long term health outside of agility and why not jump him a little lower. I then ask myself if I think this is taking the easy way out so to speak, will this solve everything? Probably not, we will still face challenges, but this just seems to take the major hurdle (lol) out of the equation. Would you start over and drop to 16 inches, or continue with our regular height? I have four more years before I could drop him in a Veterans class.

That got to be a novel real quick!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't really have input on dropping him, as I'm a real novice in agility, but I do know that the experienced folks have lots of exercises they do to teach dogs proper form for jumping. There's probably something that can help you guys.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I think you may need to consider a few things.

- Have you truly taught him how to jump and do you give him cues for where he is going to after the jump BEFORE he reaches his set point (take off point).

- Does Fin know and completely understand your handling cues and are you walking the course enough so that when Fin is running you are able to concentrate 100% on him and not where you are going? This is needed to make those split second changes in plan when needed.

- Have you considered taking a jumping course or 2 (Susan Salo and Linda Mecklenburg both have structured courses). Susan Salo has the expression ' Just because a dog jumps does not mean he knows HOW to jump' .

- Is Fin in hard working condition? Just a few pounds and/or lack of muscle tone can make a huge difference.

That being said, I considered the 10s of thousands of jumps each of my dogs will take over an active agility career and usually choose the lower height divisions - the AKC only recently changed the ruling about lateral moves between the divisions and you still cannot move laterally from Preferred to Regular classes.

Also please consider that you moved through the lower classes quickly and perhaps got a bit spoiled? I mean than kindly, but most dogs need considerably more experience under their paws before their Q rates are high.

Whatever you decide, good luck and have fun!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> I think you may need to consider a few things.
> 
> - Have you truly taught him how to jump and do you give him cues for where he is going to after the jump BEFORE he reaches his set point (take off point).
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was going to say, only put much better!

I have had a similar experience with Selli and I have gone back and forth between what in the US we call regular and preferred classes. Is there any way you can get a video of your runs and then look at them with a really experienced agility teacher to see what the exact issue is? 

One thing I can say is that taking a LOOOOONG time to get through the middle class is VERY common. In one judging briefing the judge call it agility purgatory. 

Finally, if you will have more fun being in class with lower jumps, DO IT! Start over again, it is fun to go through the easy classes again. I am sure your pup doesn't care what class you are in and if as he gets more experience he learns to leave those bars up, you can move back up to regular classes! 

Agility should be fun for both of you, so find a way to make it so!


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Sunrise said:


> I think you may need to consider a few things.
> 
> - Have you truly taught him how to jump and do you give him cues for where he is going to after the jump BEFORE he reaches his set point (take off point).
> 
> ...


Thaaaaank-you everyone for responses! I really appreciate it!

I definitely know we flew through Novice. When fellow competitors and I chat I usually hear many a story about how long it took them to get through and I know (and appreciate) we did well, very fast!

Sunrise, to answer your questions:


- Have you truly taught him how to jump and do you give him cues for where he is going to after the jump BEFORE he reaches his set point (take off point).

*I know early days training (before we began competing) I struggled with this. I am a refugee from the horse world (we heard someone say this and stole it) and from riding courses, I found I made really (really) late calls, and have eventually gotten better (correct!) timing. He is very good with direction and our communication, except when the tunnels suck him (incorrect course) and I cant call him back.*

- Does Fin know and completely understand your handling cues and are you walking the course enough so that when Fin is running you are able to concentrate 100% on him and not where you are going? This is needed to make those split second changes in plan when needed.

*I walk the course 3-4 times. I (again from the horse world) am very confident with course memorization and course walking, I am a little bit proud of my abilities here, I love this part of agility. My trainer currently has three former horse people training under her right now and she says not having to familiarize us with that part is a huge advantage. Me tripping up on my own legs while doing crosses is however a whollleeee nother story  I find it very easy to go to plan B when I dont get where I need to be fast enough for him (which has cost us rails in past, cutting corners, etc) or if something just doesnt feel right when running.*

- Have you considered taking a jumping course or 2 (Susan Salo and Linda Mecklenburg both have structured courses). Susan Salo has the expression ' Just because a dog jumps does not mean he knows HOW to jump' .
*
I dont know who these people are (bad, sorry!) I am in Canada, so I am not sure if that makes a difference. I cant imagine traveling (the the US) to take a course though. I am not sure I ever want to take this that seriously. I dont mean this offensively to those who do, but I am not at a point in my life where anyone in my life (outside of dogs) would understand this, including my husband, lol.*

- Is Fin in hard working condition? Just a few pounds and/or lack of muscle tone can make a huge difference.

*Agree! We definitely notice a difference when he is holding a little extra weight. Fin is always in pretty amazing shape (agility aside he is a 4 walk a day dog, retrieving, hikes, etc) but I know the difference between pet in shape and agility dog in shape and he is probably in the middle of the two.*

That being said, I considered the 10s of thousands of jumps each of my dogs will take over an active agility career and usually choose the lower height divisions - the AKC only recently changed the ruling about lateral moves between the divisions and you still cannot move laterally from Preferred to Regular classes.

*Yes. I think this is my number one consideration right now. How much agility I would like to do with him, regardless of Q runs or titles, is 16 inches better for him over 20.....I think so.*

Also please consider that you moved through the lower classes quickly and perhaps got a bit spoiled? I mean than kindly, but most dogs need considerably more experience under their paws before their Q rates are high.
*
Absolutely spoiled (and taken kindly!)! I struggle thinking about that, then the other reasons and why I am running agility and why I am considering dropping him! I dont want to ever think dropping him will be the easy way out and solve all of our problems.*


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Selli-Belle said:


> Exactly what I was going to say, only put much better!
> 
> I have had a similar experience with Selli and I have gone back and forth between what in the US we call regular and preferred classes. Is there any way you can get a video of your runs and then look at them with a really experienced agility teacher to see what the exact issue is?
> 
> ...


I think we settled today after asking a few trainers (professionals in terms of our area) and others that we will drop and start over. We went 0 for 4 today, two amazing JWW runs with the 2nd rail in one run, the 3rd last rail in the other. Our Standard runs were our first in Excellent and we got eaten alive for other (my fault!) reasons. 

lol about purgatory!


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## Sydney's Mom (May 1, 2012)

I'm a little late to this ... but my trainers always recommend a lower jump height if possible. Work up to it etc.

There are seminars you can take here in Canada that can help. Maybe take a look at things that McCann's are doing - Kayl does a bunch of them - or Susan Garrett or something.

Having a horse background myself, I can relate to finding the courses easy to memorize!


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Sydney's Mom said:


> I'm a little late to this ... but my trainers always recommend a lower jump height if possible. Work up to it etc.
> 
> There are seminars you can take here in Canada that can help. Maybe take a look at things that McCann's are doing - Kayl does a bunch of them - or Susan Garrett or something.
> 
> Having a horse background myself, I can relate to finding the courses easy to memorize!


I video'd one of Susan's runs on Sunday, man....so amazing to see right in front of you how fast dogs can go!! Not my cup of tea, I like my slower version, ha....but still pretty cool to watch! Trial was at McCann's, what a cool spot! We have dropped for the two trial's I have registered for in August, so with more work and a dropped height we will see how it goes!!


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## Sydney's Mom (May 1, 2012)

What did you think of the McCann's turf? I haven't been but hear it's awesome.


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Sydney's Mom said:


> What did you think of the McCann's turf? I haven't been but hear it's awesome.


Loved it! Saw some bigger dogs slipping on it, but I would trial there again no problem! We had no power most of the day Saturday with the storm the night before, but great windows and it worked out okay! Amazing facility, I'll be asking for their building plans if a winning lottomax comes my way 

I didn't know you were a horse person, too! Do you still ride!? I stopped when I found out I was pregnant (fell off the day I found out!) and since I was riding green beans for free lessons I just stopped and decided risk wasn't worth it and haven't ridden since. Will pick it back up someday!


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## ataylor (Dec 28, 2008)

I did the same thing with Jackson. Novice was no problem, but Open was another story. In the AKC his regular height is 24". Because the way that we was built, he was having a tough time keeping his back feet up, he also liked to take off with his front. After talking to several people and my instructor, I decided to drop him down to the 20" class (Preferred). He is doing a lot better. Jackson is keeping his bars up and the Q rate is increasing. Plus, it seems to be more fun for him, he doesn't have to work so hard to clear the jumps.


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## Sydney's Mom (May 1, 2012)

ILoveMyGolden said:


> Loved it! Saw some bigger dogs slipping on it, but I would trial there again no problem! We had no power most of the day Saturday with the storm the night before, but great windows and it worked out okay! Amazing facility, I'll be asking for their building plans if a winning lottomax comes my way
> 
> I didn't know you were a horse person, too! Do you still ride!? I stopped when I found out I was pregnant (fell off the day I found out!) and since I was riding green beans for free lessons I just stopped and decided risk wasn't worth it and haven't ridden since. Will pick it back up someday!


Sorry - I just saw this! 

I haven't ridden for about 10 years! I did it my entire youth / teenage years but stopped in my early 20's when college / work / life got in the way. But for about 15 years it was all I did - school>barn>sleep>repeat! A bit of hunter, dressage and then pleasure later on. Just being used to memorizing courses - both when on the horse and watching / being with friends made the pick-up of agility easy.

My mom swears I wanted to get into agility because I was memorized by the "Superdogs" vs the horses @ the Royal Winter Fair when I was 6. Maybe it's somewhere in my subconscious.


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Sydney's Mom said:


> Sorry - I just saw this!
> 
> I haven't ridden for about 10 years! I did it my entire youth / teenage years but stopped in my early 20's when college / work / life got in the way. But for about 15 years it was all I did - school>barn>sleep>repeat! A bit of hunter, dressage and then pleasure later on. Just being used to memorizing courses - both when on the horse and watching / being with friends made the pick-up of agility easy.
> 
> My mom swears I wanted to get into agility because I was memorized by the "Superdogs" vs the horses @ the Royal Winter Fair when I was 6. Maybe it's somewhere in my subconscious.


We are refugee's from the horse world  I always loved agility growing up, especially at the Royal! I used to show cows at the Royal.....always wanted to show horses, buuuuut now I just want to go there and eat and watch, hahaha 

We trial Monday in Georgetown at 16", back in to Novice! Then off to Ottawa next weekend for a full weekend of trialing....!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Ah the close ties of horses and dogs, and agility. I too rode for 30+ years. Hung my stirrups up about 3 years ago and gave away my horse :-(

I think you need to talk/work with someone you trust and knows you and your dog. You got good advice here, but without seeing we can't judge. Handlers have to put their dogs first. Our Preferred division used to be the evil step child just a few years ago when I started agility. I started in Preferred as Belle was huge, "older", and just didn't need to push for the 24" jumps. Jumping them wasn't the issue. 

Looking back having more knowledge now, I'm glad I ran there. Her conformation wasn't conducive to staying sound. She did remarkably, but I think because I asked her to jump 20". When friends now step their dogs down, they are amazed how much faster and better they jump, than they had been. These are older campaigners who still want to play but start struggling. Lower jumps, less struggle. 

Also the middle division is hard for some to get out of. Gabby got out of open standard quickly, but took her nine months to complete jumpers. So is the issue handling or your dogs capabilities? That only someone who knows the two of you can answer. 

I applaud you for the consideration. Too many people don't think about the dogs, only the goal. I vow I will never do these sports at the expense of my dogs. I retired Belle 3 QQ's away from her championship, she started struggling. Someone told me to bring her back in a few months. Nope, the title was for me not her. It still hurts she didn't get it, but she is happy and doing very well in her retirement. I wouldn't trade that for the world. 

Agility is about fun whatever height, division, organization one chooses to play in. 

Ann


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