# Training Ideas. Some feedback??



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I have been working with my dog for sometime now and he is doing great. I have used various methods including clicker with treats and then prong/flat no treats. I used the clicker when he was a pup to shape behaviors and I used a prong when he started getting strong and was NOT responding to the clicker. Before I get flamed I am very well aware of the damage that can be caused by improper use of a prong or choker collar. I really don't need to give any corrections with the prong since he has been trained WITHOUT it first. 

Anyway, my idea is this. I want very fast reactions from the little guy. I would like a fast down specifically. I would like it on the first and ONLY command EVERY time. His down is about 97% great. I really want to make it perfect. My question is do you think it would be beneficial to revert now back to clicker training to reinforce the down? For instance my plan is to do about 300 downs a day all with click and treat technique. Should I still keep the prong on him and if he Does NOT follow the command gently correct him? One way I train SOME dogs is positive reinforcement or a correction for not following the command. I think the dog can learn well like this.....if I sit I get a great treat. If I do not I don't get a treat and I get placed in a sit.....Some feedback appreciated. 

Again I do not want this to turn into a positive reinforcement vs. other method thread. I just want some feedback on my theory and ideas. I may not even use the prong since my REAL issue is downing the dog from a distance so I cannot correct anyway. I really don't need to anymore. This is more about proofing behaviors. Sorry for the LONG thread....thanks. Any other advice on proofing behaviors is greatly appreciated.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

getting a fast and joyful down is much easier with a clicker...IMO...the dog that is taught a down with a clicker typically doesnt second guess their decision or wonder if a correction is coming.

The biggest advice I can give is to quickly get duration with the down.....a fast down is pretty but kind of useless unless the dog keeps the position for the next command and doesn't pop-up...

...ALWAYS reward in the down position.....so you can start delaying the cookie and fading it more quickly...


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I my goal is a drop on recall so I am beginning to really try and solidify the down. I am familiar with the theory of delaying and fading in the down. He is real good with the down and staying. I agree he might ENJOY to go down more when he isn't thinking about a correction and he will only associate the down command/handsignal with goodthings.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

we work on distance downs behind a baby gate...and then a simple wood dowel barrier...FlyingQuizini has had links with pictures of a pvc box...I have friends that use an agility table to get some distance too...


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My dog Tally's strongest suit is his drop on recalls- he'll smartly do it with a verbal or a hand signal. I completely agree with LibertyME about confidence and positive methods. 

We didnt use babygates or a plumber's tape box for training this(yes for go outs), just good sit -stays after lots of work on hand signal downs right at front, and then one step back at a time. f you do position transitions- down to sit, sit to stand etc with a clicker both in heel position and in front of you, you can gradually add a hand signal for down. Once he gets the hand signal, you can out him on a sit-stay, and ask for the down via hand siognal, taking one baby step back at a time and rewarding every single down. Once the dog is confortable going down from a distance, then you can add the down from recall. 

I went to an agility interesting seminar on how abrupt changes in philosophy and paradigm shifts in training methods causes some dogs to lose faith in the learning process itself, and get a kind of learned helplessness. I don't think a prong collar is appropriate for obedience training a youngster.


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I only started used the prong after his advanced obedience course as a tool to help with heeling and he is being weened off of it. I have a down from a distance of about 12 feet 97% of the time with a handsignal. the other 3 percent the dog comes to me FIRST when he sees the hand signal then downs right in front of me. I am wondering if training him AGAIN with the clicker and treats will get him to the 100% mark after 1000's of downs with clickandtreat clickandtreat. After that I can begin to incorporate the recall.???????????? I don't want him to lose faith in the learning process as he is tops in the beyond advanced class and is doing very good and having fun all the time.


----------



## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

To me, recall means he's returning to me. What is "down on recall?"


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

down or drop on recall is when the dog drops or downs in the middle of the recall. It can look like this. You sit stay your dog, walk 25 feet away, command a recall, and at about 15 feet away you throw your hand signal/command the down and the dog drops or downs and only recalls when commanded again.


----------



## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

Got it. Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm no help on how to train this. I'm trying to get over the '300 downs a day' portion of your thread. 

I think you run a very real risk of having your dog tune you out with that many reps.

I like the term 'joyful down' that Libertyme used. All obedience should be joyful from a Golden.

For what you're wanting from the dog, you might want to check out the Schuzund (or something like that) that is done with German Shepards. The maneuver you describe as 'down on recall' sounds more like what they do.


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I think 300 a day is a lot also...if you did only 20 an hour in 12 hours you would have 240 done....You can really do 50 downs in a relatively short time with clicking and treating. 300 is a round about estimate. Espically in the learning/RElearning phase.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Be mindful of your dog maybe getting sore from all those downs.

That would be like a person STARTing an exercise program with 300 squats: a recipe for sore muscles.

It's very good to have a goal when working with your dog, but remember YOUR goal is NOT your dog's goal. To some extent, you have to take into consideration his physical condition, age, maturity, interest and desire to do the maneuver. Expecting a dog to go beyond his mental or physical ability to meet YOUR goal is not fair to the dog.

JMHO, of course.


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

wishihad2goldens said:


> Be mindful of your dog maybe getting sore from all those downs.
> 
> That would be like a person STARTing an exercise program with 300 squats: a recipe for sore muscles.
> 
> ...


I always appreciate the advice and feedback! He is in great shape, and is highly active and has been doing a lot of training for a while now so I know he is up for it. He also loves the clicker. I know his limits and would never push them. I don't want anyone to think that I am militant as well!!! He is a great well rounded dog and everyone who meets him loves him...I just want to take him to the next level....


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Sounds like he's ready for the next level!

Have fun!


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Some Goldens will slam themselves into downs on the drop on recall and it still looks joyful and happy...some pounce into downs undeniably, goldenly, goofy....they both look joyful.....the uncertain slink into a down is what I try to avoid......




wishihad2goldens said:


> I'm no help on how to train this. I'm trying to get over the '300 downs a day' portion of your thread.
> 
> I think you run a very real risk of having your dog tune you out with that many reps.
> 
> ...


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> Some Goldens will slam themselves into downs on the drop on recall and it still looks joyful and happy...some pounce into downs undeniably, goldenly, goofy....they both look joyful.....the uncertain slink into a down is what I try to avoid......


Do you think the uncertain slink might come if he is unsure of what to do or hasn't progressed to that level? Why is that something to be avoided?


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I also think that 300 downs a day is too much. Not only might he get bored, but he may actually refuse the command due to burn out.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I can't imagine asking a dog to do 300 of any command in a day. WOW
Even with the best intentions that sounds like a great way to get them to be totally bored with an exercise. Can you think of anything your boss could ask you to do 300 times a day and you'd do it joyfully?
Dogs are not machines. 300 times a day will be no more effective than ten times a day making it really worth the dog's effort.
You are right that getting a drop from a distance is essential before trying a DOR. In other words, teach remote signals (utility) before the DOR. 
A cute game I've found that really helps --- at a distance of just 5 or 6 feet (or really, any position in front of you -- because the dog will get farther away during the game) -- have a handful of treats, tell the dog to down (I use primarily a hand signal), when he does say "GOOD!" or "YAY" or whatever then "GET IT" and thrown a treat to his side and BEHIND the dog (several feet), so he has to get up, turn around and chase after it behind him. The second he turns toward you give another down signal, repeat with the "GOOD"! And throwing a treat behind him. Repeat, repeat. This is a very rapid game, in the span of a minute you can get 7-8 downs, the dog gets a great reward (CHASING a TREAT) and he is doing all of this an increasing distance from you. At the end of the game, leave him in a sit or stand, walk a distance away and give the down signal again -- bet he'll drop quick because he expects that treat! Lob it at him or throw a ball to him to end the game. How fun was that! MUCH MORE FUN THAN 300 DOWNS A DAY WITH THE CLICKER (BORING).


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I think a slink is uncertainty....it is from a lack of understanding of understanding the physical 'how to go into a down'...probably not....most likely distance or distractions are still a bit too high and overriding his knowledge of how to do the physical..

Second to that - add in a dogs ability to sense when we are frustrated or anxious - them not knowing how to interpret that information and bingo you've got uncertainty.

I cant wait for those on the board that have much more CDX & Utility experience then I to chime it this evening...


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I can't imagine asking a dog to do 300 of any command in a day. WOW
> Even with the best intentions that sounds like a great way to get them to be totally bored with an exercise. Can you think of anything your boss could ask you to do 300 times a day and you'd do it joyfully?
> Dogs are not machines. 300 times a day will be no more effective than ten times a day making it really worth the dog's effort.
> You are right that getting a drop from a distance is essential before trying a DOR. In other words, teach remote signals (utility) before the DOR.
> A cute game I've found that really helps --- at a distance of just 5 or 6 feet (or really, any position in front of you -- because the dog will get farther away during the game) -- have a handful of treats, tell the dog to down (I use primarily a hand signal), when he does say "GOOD!" or "YAY" or whatever then "GET IT" and thrown a treat to his side and BEHIND the dog (several feet), so he has to get up, turn around and chase after it behind him. The second he turns toward you give another down signal, repeat with the "GOOD"! And throwing a treat behind him. Repeat, repeat. This is a very rapid game, in the span of a minute you can get 7-8 downs, the dog gets a great reward (CHASING a TREAT) and he is doing all of this an increasing distance from you. At the end of the game, leave him in a sit or stand, walk a distance away and give the down signal again -- bet he'll drop quick because he expects that treat! Lob it at him or throw a ball to him to end the game. How fun was that! MUCH MORE FUN THAN 300 DOWNS A DAY WITH THE CLICKER (BORING).


This is a great idea!!!!

I think my 300 a day comment got a little confused....lol...It was just an estimate and I would not be drilling it like push ups.. sit..down..sit..down..sit..down...sit..down..sit..down..sit..downsit..down..
sit..down..sit..downsit..down..sit..down..sit..downsit..down..sit..down..
sit..down... 
I was planning to incorporate it into my everyday routines....also always followed by a treat.....
I can't wait to try this game.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Great Game Anney! 
I havent played that one in a while....must dig it out tonight!! Thanks!
Trace has never played it...he is gonna freakin LOVE it!


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I guess my theory was that if I do ALOT of downs in a variety of environments with positive association my dog would almost get muscle memory and as soon as he saw the hand signal would instantly drop out of conditioning. ???? is this possible??? I've read of teaching recalls this way. Low distraction environment, recall command click treat, recall command click treat. eventually the dog hears the command and automaticall comes no matter what. I was trying to apply this to a down on recall??????


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I was basing my training on what I've read by Shirly Chong. The game you mentioned is extremely similar to her 1st step in training the DOR. Except she is using a clicker. In her method she takes approx. 50 small treats and plays the game you mentioned and plays it fast. If you do that 6 times a day say every 2 hours you would hit the 300 or more mark everyday and it would be fun for your dog. She says that once the dog gets the hang you can drop 50 treats in 5 or 6 minutes which equals 50 downs in 6 minutes....over time the dog comes conditioned to dropping as soon as the command is given...like the way a golfer almost always has a perfect swing...by swinging a golfclub over 500 times a day......any one else like her or her ideas?


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

FishinBuddy said:


> Do you think the uncertain slink might come if he is unsure of what to do or hasn't progressed to that level? Why is that something to be avoided?


What is the point of upper level obedience if not partnership and teamwork? An uncertain slink can be the first step on the road to a ring sour dog.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

<<Do you think the uncertain slink might come if he is unsure of what to do or hasn't progressed to that level? Why is that something to be avoided?>>

No -- that "slink" comes from a dog who is either very eager to anticipate (not a bad thing -- means the dog understands the sequence -- and is eager to do it -- but that "happy slink" is usually only seen with border collies!!!  -- OR -- it comes from a dog who was corrected for not dropping too severely and without first understanding what his handler wanted when given the command. The dog knows that *something* happens halfway through the recall but he doesn't really know what to do to make it right and make his handler be nice again. Appease, appease, appease, and if I get lower to the ground Mom looks happier (because Mom thinks the dog will lay down). 
Fishin -- I think you are overthinking this whole thing, and the drilling and all is a bit intense. The "DOWN" command takes a LONG time to perfect, in my experience the dogs pick up on sit, stand, here, heel position, watch, etc, with only a voice cue way before they figure out "down" without any assistance. Practice a few times a day and make it a game -- don't fall into the trap of smashing it into the dog's brain. Cramming will not help it, it will make the dog sketchy about the whole thing. 
I'm not sure why you're balls to the wall determined to get the dog to be automatic and like -- NOW 
As with anything, just enjoy the training process and seeing the dog figure it out over time. Lot less stress for everyone. 
Another thing you need to realize -- training is about BALANCE. I can guarantee if you do this 300 downs a day business, in about two days, any time you ask for ANY behavior, even ones you think your dog "knows" -- guess what you're going to get? A down. Now the dog thinks that the right answer to every request is "down." Now you have to go back and patch up all of your other commands. Talk about Pandora's box. Take it easy and keep balance in what you work on.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Had another little thought about balance --
Especially when drilling a concept....remember that dogs do not understand English -- they only have our vague gestures and feedback to go on. So sometimes, what you think you are teaching them, is not what they are learning!
The little treat toss game I mentioned before is a perfect example for this. Used too often (and I probably wouldn't do this every day, much less multiple times a day...it is a game, don't depend on it) the dog is going to think that the object of the game is to turn around and lay down! Done too many times you won't even need to give a drop command, verbal or signal, because the second the dog eats the thrown treat he will turn toward you and lay down. Because that's what happens next, he knows this and doesn't need you to tell him that! The game has gone from "reinforce drop signal at a distance" to "eat treat, turn around and lay down." Your dog is now no more prepared to do a drop on recall than he was before you started. Dogs do not generalize well, and drilling is falling into a trap of teaching the dog "do this but only when I do that in this setting at this time." Games and different drills involving the same cue and result help a dog generalize because it's the same cue under different circumstances.


----------



## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I use the same game that Anney uses. I use cheeseballs (the human food kind) for that. 

I also use the PVC box. It it a twelve foot section of PVC, quartered, and joined to make a square. I spent a week teaching her that the box was the best place ever (tossing her treats when she was in the box only, etc- and "ah ah-ing" when she left it). Then, I used the box to teach go outs ("gabby, box!"), signals (this way she doesn't creep forward) and as a tool for the drop on recall. 

I also play a game where I set up two or three PVC pipes on the ground. The pipes are in a row- fifteen feet apart. I've taught her to drop behind the pipes. I call her, and I may drop her behind pipe 1 or pipe 2 or behind pipe 1 and pipe 2 - she never knows. She absolutely loves it- because I toss a cheeseball to her when she stops and drops behind the pipe. It gets a really quick drop. 

Also, make sure you are getting really quick random drops by you. You're not going to get far out, reliable drops if he will not drop consistently by you at all angles and all times.


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

FishinBuddy said:


> This is a great idea!!!!
> 
> I think my 300 a day comment got a little confused....lol...It was just an estimate and I would not be drilling it like push ups.. sit..down..sit..down..sit..down...sit..down..sit..down..sit..downsit..down..
> sit..down..sit..downsit..down..sit..down..sit..downsit..down..sit..down..
> ...


Are you teaching him to go down from standing, or to sit, then down? It is much quicker for the dog to fold into a down from standing, then to sit then creep into a down. One of the games I do is to have the treat and get them to 'chase' it to the floor as they fold back into the down, then I place the food where they'll get it in the down, and then 'race' them to get to it first. I'll hold their collar so they can't cheat and go down before they're told, then give them their cue as I release them. Then work into the utility signals with toys at the ready to wing at them or behind them for either a job well done or looking away. Very quick and short reps, maybe one or two then 'game over' and we do something else, quit or if it was really good, we play lots. I quit before the dog gets bored.

Lana


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*His down is about 97% great. *

Can you define this, please? Do you mean that 97% of the time he drops on the first cue, or drops as quick as you want, or both? Define "great."

*I really want to make it perfect. My question is do you think it would be beneficial to revert now back to clicker training to reinforce the down? For instance my plan is to do about 300 downs a day all with click and treat technique. *

Sure! If your dog understands the clicker, nothing wrong with going back and reinforcing w/ a C/T. BUT, be clear on your criteria. Is it downing on the first cue, or downing quickly -- and what is quickly? You need to be systematic. For instance, maybe now you define "quicker" to mean dog must begin to drop w/in 2 seconds of my giving the cue, in which you only c/t drops that meet that criteria. Once you have 80% success there, up your criteria to mean dog must begin drop sequence w/in 1 second on the cue, etc. You can also time your click to coincide with the quick *start* of a down vs. the moment the dog is totally floor-ward.

Other points:

* I agree you want a down from a stand for this. Is that what you have?

* I also agree that you need a fast, reliable down at a distance before you add the forward movement for the DOR. Using some sort of barrier (behind a gate, PVC box, etc.) works really well for adding the distance.

I also play run-run-down... where I run along side the dog and ask for a quick down in motion next to me, eventually leading up to my being able to get a quick down from the dog as I keep moving forward, as well as back-back-down... where I face the dog, move into the dog's space to prompt a back up (or cue it if the dogs knows backing up) and ask for backing up a couple steps and then a quick down.

Oh, and I personally am not comfortable with pairing a click for a correct response w/ a physical correction for incorrect response. (The idea that you'd click or prong collar) Physical corrections are just so not what clicker training is about. I guess it depends on how exactly you're using the clicker.

*Should I still keep the prong on him and if he Does NOT follow the command gently correct him? One way I train SOME dogs is positive reinforcement or a correction for not following the command. I think the dog can learn well like this.....if I sit I get a great treat. If I do not I don't get a treat and I get placed in a sit.....Some feedback appreciated.*


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Fishin -- I think you are overthinking this whole thing, and the drilling and all is a bit intense. The "DOWN" command takes a LONG time to perfect, in my experience the dogs pick up on sit, stand, here, heel position, watch, etc, with only a voice cue way before they figure out "down" without any assistance. Practice a few times a day and make it a game -- don't fall into the trap of smashing it into the dog's brain. Cramming will not help it, it will make the dog sketchy about the whole thing.
> I'm not sure why you're balls to the wall determined to get the dog to be automatic and like -- NOW
> As with anything, just enjoy the training process and seeing the dog figure it out over time. Lot less stress for everyone.
> Another thing you need to realize -- training is about BALANCE. I can guarantee if you do this 300 downs a day business, in about two days, any time you ask for ANY behavior, even ones you think your dog "knows" -- guess what you're going to get? A down. Now the dog thinks that the right answer to every request is "down." Now you have to go back and patch up all of your other commands. Talk about Pandora's box. Take it easy and keep balance in what you work on.


Awesome, valuable, and candid advice from a successful, experienced trainer! .


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

So glad you mentioned training to 80% Stephanie....

In my very humble and limited experience...there is a danger in teaching each stage to 100% before progressing to the next step toward the final goal....
Teaching to 100% effective stops the dog from learning - it does become more like muscle memory rather then a thinking process....they come to believe that "this is it" Ive been doing the same thing a thousand times, I dont need to think anymore....
Then, when you start expecting them to do a bit more i.e. adding distance or duration or another criteria, ...it is like starting all over again....rather then a progression...

Visualizing the details of the final goal is so very important...


----------



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

Once again great advice from all....
Quiz: 97% of the time he drops on first command and as fast as I want...My issue (which i realized last night) is at a distance of about 15-20 feet when he see's my hand signal he comes forward a bit then downs.... 
I do appreciate the comments and I already has helped. I AM NOT drilling him as I thought may be a good idea and I am NOT using the prong....he LOVES the clicker and after 2 fun sessions of down and toss the treat his down is about 15% faster. 

That is why this forum is great....I had an idea....threw it around and was able to find a better route in order to acheive my goals.....


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FishinBuddy said:


> Once again great advice from all....
> Quiz: 97% of the time he drops on first command and as fast as I want...My issue (which i realized last night) is at a distance of about 15-20 feet when he see's my hand signal he comes forward a bit then downs....
> I do appreciate the comments and I already has helped. I AM NOT drilling him as I thought may be a good idea and I am NOT using the prong....he LOVES the clicker and after 2 fun sessions of down and toss the treat his down is about 15% faster.
> 
> That is why this forum is great....I had an idea....threw it around and was able to find a better route in order to acheive my goals.....


Good job! To prevent the stepping forward or creeping forward in general....
1) Toss cookie behind game is a good one because the dog is rewarded for going backward
2) Use a physical barrier such as a babygate, pvc pipe on the ground, even a leash. Teach the dog to respect the barrier and not cross it. 
3) NEVER give the signal then CALL the dog to you. Yes, that is the final sequence in the ring but you can anticipate anticipation  if you do this regularly in practice. Walk TO the dog and/or throw a ball/treat BEHIND them 9 times for every one time you call them to you or have them move forward in any fashion.

You must be an engineer. This % of success thing is rather humorous.  Just kidding with you.


----------

