# Shock Training Collars



## kellange123

My father in law has a lab, who he has used a shock training collar on him. He is kind of a busy body when he gets out of his kennel. He also has had some problems with visiting a neighbor when he is outside and she is in heat. When he has the collar on he stays put.

What are some opinions about shock collars? We would like to train our dog for hunting and people who hunt with dogs around here said they are the way to go in the field. It isn't like I want to shock her all the time, we are looking at models with a vibrate feature just to get her attention when she is far off. What does everyone thing about it?


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## FlyingQuizini

I think you can accomplish an awful lot without one. I think most people use them as training shortcuts and my personal opinion is that the shortcut comes at a cost of potentially damaging the relationship between you and your dog.

To you your FIL's dog as an example -- you could train the same behavior (not wandering off and/or instant recall if he did) w/o the collar... it just would have taken more time.

I'm not totally anti- E-collar - I just don't like how quickly people seem to turn to them in general. I'm doing hunt test work with my Golden and he's never seen an E collar nor felt an ear-pinch for a force fetch and he's doing just fine. Yes, we're still in the early stages of testing and I do understand the potential "pros" of using one when your dog works at a distance, etc. However, I still argue that, with hunting in particular, dogs have been retrieving game for man since before electricity... and at a time where, if the dog didn't get it right, you didn't get to EAT! So I don't believe that e-collar is the only way to to.

I personally welcome the challenge of training a dog w/o one.

It also depends greatly on HOW you use it. It's very, very easy to use them incorrectly. You can create lots of horrible associations in a dog's mine when used incorrectly. Here's an example:

A friend of mine has a dog who barks constantly while working. It carried into obedience. She decided to use a shock bark collar on the dog while training for obedience. The dog didn't associate the shock with the barking, but rather, with heel position - and then for the longest time, she couldn't get the dog to sit in heel position. 

The worst, though, is when the HUMAN gets frustrated and takes it out on the dog via the remote. If you have to keep upping the level of correction, it means that your training is falling short and it's time to go back and fix the problem in your TRAINING - not just keep correcting the dog more and more, thinking at some point he'll "get it".


Okay - I'm starting to ramble! Good luck in your decision making process!

-Stephanie


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## HovawartMom

If you have to use it,then,ask for the help of a trainer.
It's a great tool!.
Many hunters use it with great success and wouldn't go any other way.
I find the whistle just as efficient.


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## Emma&Tilly

I would give it a go without one first (at least try)...they are not really used in this country and are in the process of being made illegal under the new animal welfare act...which I think is only a good thing...so you gotta think if entire countries can train their hunting dogs without them...then...it must be possible! and if it IS possible to train WITHOUT having to administer electric shocks then I would certainly try and avoid such measures. If I had to work on something 10 times harder but without having to shock my dog then it would definitely be worth it for me (and the dog!!) I don't really know about collars that vibrate so wouldnt know how effective they would be.

Good luck with whatever you decide


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## cubbysan

I had an aggressive German Shepherd. I had two animal behaviorist tell me to get rid of him before I had children.

Finally, I had one trainer come to the house and actually labelled him as being "fear aggressive". He was agressive towards children and anybody that was afraid of him, other than that he was a good dog. The trainer trained him with me on the shock collar, within 15 minutes he was a different dog. We went through about 8 weeks of training. I think we only used the collar for a year, then the prong collar when he was on leash. 

Although I never trusted him 100 percent, he was great with my children. The shock collar probably saved his life. But that was a German Shepherd, I am not sure I would use one on a Golden, although I do have a down payment on a invisible fence, so I guess that is the same thing. The fence company is going to do all the training so my dog does not associate the shock with me or my family.



A


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## Maggies mom

I think they are a great tool if you are trained to use it and use it right....


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## vrocco1

I agree, there are things that some doggies need to be forced into doing. The collars are completely harmless. In fact, I believe they are less harmful to the relationship between a dog and his owner then is the clicker (which unnecessarily prolongs training). Try to force a dog to pick up a duck with a clicker. 

As with all such tools, you should be properly trained before you use it. Some of them can provide everything from a correction, to a reminder.


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## Maggies mom

On one of my dogs, I have never shocked him, the vib, mode is enough....


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## kellange123

She is pretty good with coming back. She responds best to a whistle, I think she likes it because it reminds her of my hubby and my horrible singing. She licks us to death when we sing to her. I am still in the air about the collar. She is still a pup and learning the ways of the world. She seems to manage herself when we are outside walking the yard (we have some reeds and tall grass around our lot) and she pops up a bird. She usually stops and stares then runs to me for her praise with a big smile. I definately think we need more training on some of the basic commands before we go to the collar. We also want her to go hunting as an observer with veteran hunters to see what to do before we take her to the big show on her own. Who knows, if she isn't into it, then we won't hunt her and she will be our snuggle bear always.


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## Emma&Tilly

vrocco1 said:


> In fact, I believe they are less harmful to the relationship between a dog and his owner then is the clicker (which unnecessarily prolongs training)


Im intrigued by that comment, could you explain it a little more...?


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## AquaClaraCanines

How can clicking and rewarding and training your dog to enjoy thinking and using his brain be "damaging" to the relationship?

I am not totally against shock collars either, but that comment baffles me.


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## AquaClaraCanines

BTW it takes me about 4 clicks (so less than one minute) to get a new behavior/trick in my dog. I don't think that's very prolonged...


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## vrocco1

Nahhhh... I know better then to be dragged into that discussion  hehehehehehe


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## gracie's mom

Personally, I think shock collars are cruel. However, if people are thinking of using them, my suggestion would be to buy 2. One for the dog and one for yourself. Everytime you shock the dog, shock yourself at the same degree. When your tired of being shocked, maybe the dog is too.


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## AquaClaraCanines

lol well, truly not trying to fight- just confused. I am not some pure positive diehard.

I use prong collars and other methods for some things. But I could never ever ever imagine thinking that positive training and teaching the dog to use his brain is DAMAGING to the animal or your bond with him.


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## Emma&Tilly

vrocco1 said:


> Nahhhh... I know better then to be dragged into that discussion  hehehehehehe


huh? 

To be honest, I just dont understand why anyone would want to use them when you clearly can achieve the same results without...you MUST be able to as in the UK they arent really used (and the other countries that they are illegal in) and they have trained their hunting dogs for centuries...truely I dont get it...having a dog that you love and wanting to give them an electric shock do not equate in my mind...I am trying not to be ignorant to something I know very little about and I know people that use them obviously love their dogs but I just dont get how you could physically press the button knowing it will administer an electric shock! Surely the shock must cause some level of pain to change a behaviour pattern...else it wouldnt work...if it just 'alerts' the dog then how would that change a behaviour? Through my lack of knowledge on the subject I am eager to learn how they work if the above is incorrect...even if I dont agree I would be interested in understanding the training process involved.


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## Emma&Tilly

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I am not some pure positive diehard.


hmmm....well my only prerequisite for training is that I dont hurt my dog...can I call myself a die hard then?....always wanted to be a die hard at something....lol!


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## AquaClaraCanines

Maybe, and there's nothing wrong with being pure positive in my opinion, though I'm not. As I have mentioned before- to be flat out honest, I want instant results. The clicker provides that for teaching NEW behaviors IMO- but not always for getting rid of old, bad ones. I can train the most obnoxious butthead dog that drags its owner down the street to walk at my side in 15 minutes with a prong. It would take weeks with a clicker.

While I don't think it's DAMAGING to do it the long way, it sure is annoying, to me. I simply want the dog to stop pulling me, NOW. End of story.

On the hand, if I was training the dog to, say, take a bow on command, the clicker would take minutes... negative methods could take weeks.


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## Emma&Tilly

I definitely appreciate you take on things...and it does make sense...why WOULD you want your dog to be pulling you down the street on every walk when it can be sorted in 15 minutes? (geez...really 15 minutes? now even to me THAT makes the prong sound somewhat appealing...!)


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## AquaClaraCanines

I'm no saint... sometimes I just can't take it anymore LOL


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## AquaClaraCanines

In all seriousness, especially with a balance impaired, deaf handler, I cannot have a large, strong dog that pulls on the leash. I also have gotten some really obnoxious rescue dogs. They get the prong lesson the first day or two they arrive.


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## FlyingQuizini

vrocco1 said:


> Try to force a dog to pick up a duck with a clicker.


Try fitting an e-collar on Shamu!

Just a different style of training. I don't FORCE my dogs to do anything. My dog is retrieving ducks and an obedience dumbbell just fine and he's never been so much as force-fetched with an ear pinch much less with an E-collar.

*I* don't *make* my dogs do anything. Even when I ask them to SIT, or FETCH IT UP, or COME or whatever -- I'm just giving the CUE that turns the behavior on. Whether or not my dog actually does it is a result of the dog having learned the CONSEQUENCES associated with the behavior. With reward-based training (be it with a lure or a clicker or priase or whatever) the dog learns the compliance = good things. With aversive methods, the dog learns that non-compliance = bad things. I prefer to highlight the good and keep the bad to a minimum. I believe it makes for a more confident, happy worker than a dog who is working with the attitude of "do this or else!"

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini

Me again...

The only possible way I could see clicker training damaging the relationship between a dog/handler would be if someone were trying to use the clicker to fix a bad habit and when it took "too long" they grew frustrated and gave up. I'm still not sure i see that as a problem with the training method, though.

Clicker training (when used with pure shaping) does take longer for many things. We live in an "instant gratification" society. Therefore, clicker training isn't apporpriate in a lot of situations. However, that doesn't mean that punishment-based methods have to be the answer.

For the record, I'm not pure positive either. I don't use e-collars personally and the only circumstance I'm comfortable using them would be for snake avoidance training -- and then only with a really experienced person.

Like I said before, my real problem with e-collars is the fact that many people turn to them as a short cut.

-Stephanie


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## Qui Chang Trainer

Gentle Readers,

The Electronic Collar is a most excellent training aid. The term "Shock Collar" is really not correct any longer. The Electronic Collars that were available in the latter portions of the 1960's WERE Shock Collars, but the public can no longer purchase that kind of equipment. The modern electronic collars are incapable of producing vast amounts of strong electrical current. 

The approach one takes to training a dog depends greatly upon the goals and wishes of the handler and how they view their relationship with their furry four legged assistant.

For those that view the dog as a friend or companion; they tend to express their wishes as a request that the dog may choose to comply with or not. They often offer treats as an added enticement to comply with the request. Electronic collars really don't fit into this training approach.

For those that view the relationship as a pack leader (master) and subordinate pack members; they tend to give commands that the dog is expected to comply with. This type of approach offers reward for compliance with commands and corrections for refusuals to comply with commands. This is the basic premise under which the force training methods are designed. Electronic collars work well with this training approach. 

The most honorable Vern was correct in over use of any training aid, even the clicker. Overuse leads to "nagging" the dog, and nagging leads to an overall poor attitude towards training. 

It is most difficult to make roast duck for dinner if the furry four footed friend ignors your request to fetch, choosing to chase butterflies rather than finding and bringing back the duck.


Your Humble Servant,

Qui Chang Trainer


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## goldencity

First of all I must say that I have never liked the idea of shock collars and prefer to use positive methods of training myself.
However, reading this thread, I thaught I would try to find out a bit more about them. I know that there are moves to have them banned in the UK, so I've done a bit of research to find out why.

The following link
www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/pdf/electricshockcollars.pdf
sums up everything I can find out.
It confirms my view that these collars are wrong- and before all of those who disagree start, the list of people supporting this is-
British Small Animal Vetinary Association, British Vetinary Association ,The Scottish SPCA, Scottish Kennel Club, UK Kennel Club, Dogs Trust [Canine defense league] RSPCA, Blue Cross, Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors, Guide Dogs for the Blind, association of Chief Police officers, The UK Armed Services.

Not a bunch of wooly minded nitwits who know nothing about dogs, you must agree!

Take the time to read all the link- its long, but seems to cover everything raised in this thread. 

IMHO, theres no short cuts to training, and "zapping" your dog is not the answer!


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## Qui Chang Trainer

That is because in the UK, you are still using the old collar technology equivilent to those used in the North America in the late 60's. Rather than learning new training techiques and adapting to the newer "gentler" technology, those in the UK would rather ban them all together. 

Not at all surprising as there are also movements in the UK to ban Hunting, Trialing, and the purposeful Breeding of purebred dogs such as the Golden Retriever.


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## Emma&Tilly

Qui Chang Trainer said:


> Not at all surprising as there are also movements in the UK to ban Hunting, Trialing, and the purposeful Breeding of purebred dogs such as the Golden Retriever.


Whoa...hold on a minute...you are really going to have to show me something to back up that there are movements to ban breeding of purebred dogs in the UK....? Blimey...your gonna have to warn those 30,000 dogs that entered crufts a few months ago....and the 120,000 visitors...and the 2 million people viewing it...they are gonna get a shock!

Fox hunting has been banned yes...


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## goldencity

If you had read the link, you would have seen that it was not just talking about the "old "style of shock collars, but an over view of all types.

Here in the UK, dogs are trained for field work without this type of collar and work succesfully. I have many friends and neighbours who enjoy shooting- both as "rough" shooting and in more formal organised shoots. I have lived for many years in rural areas, and spent a lot of my childhood "on the farm". 2 of my cousins are game keepers and use dogs [springer spaniels] for work. None of these dogs have been trained using E-collars. And believe you me, badly behaved dogs are not popular on organised shoots!
As for moves to ban hunting, yes, hunting with dogs has been banned [still happens, but thats another issue]. This does not mean using dogs to put up, flush out or retieve game in shooting is banned, BUT that it is now illegal to chase and bring down quarry using a pack of dogs ie like in fox hunting where the hounds chase the fox, then kill it by taring it apart. Or hare coursing, where hares are first caught in advance, then released for greyhounds or whippets to catch and kill. Stag hunting [unless the stag is shot after being cornerd] and otter hunting with packs of hounds are also banned. 

Trailng is not banned, nor is shooting and there are NO moves to stop the breeding of pure bred dogs.

I suggest you look a bit further and get your facts right!


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## KatzNK9

I'm a HUGE FAN of gentle use of prong collars ... so my stance on the electric shock collar has nothing to do with what I consider humane treatment.

I think there are a few uses for a shock collar when all other methods fail so I'm not the best person to give advice on the subject of using one. I personally would not use one unless the dog was repeatedly performing some behavior that is extremely dangerous/life threatening to the dog itself & in need of extreme measures for immediate results.

I personally wouldn't use one for training heeling on or off lead or to teach recalls. I believe the recall experience should always be a POSITIVE experience.

I can, however, easily see myself using one if I lived on a farm where the dog was chasing a large piece of farm equipment that was likely to tear the dog to shreds.


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## Maggies mom

Once again I think this is another case of what works for you and your dog.... I use the prong collar because other things didnt work...and it has worked great. I also have the E-Collar.... Just because something works with my dogs doesnt mean it will work with yours.....


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## Jazzys Mom

Qui Chang Trainer said:


> That is because in the UK, you are still using the old collar technology equivilent to those used in the North America in the late 60's.


Ok, then how do you support the fact that a friend of mine had an electric fence installed and the e-collar is used to train the dog. The trainer placed the "shock" collar on the PUPPY and sent the puppy 4 feet into the air with the SHOCK! The puppy landed on his shoulder and broke it! This was NOT a small dog - it was an ENGLISH BULL DOG. The trainer was asked by my friend why she didn't use a collar that had a gentler strength and her answer was she didn't have one with her! Granted --- this was definitely the fault of the trainer but it sure reinforces that a "SHOCK COLLAR IS JUST THAT ----- A SHOCK COLLAR"! Be it 1960 or 2007 ----- no difference ---- it is a shock collar and they are cruel!

Jazzys Mom


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## PeggyK

Both of our dogs have E collars and they are never used for obedience trainig-treats and praise work the best for that. We use them for obnoxious behavior and since they are trained to the IF, we ONLY use the sound correction and it works EVERY time. So, in my opinion, they are not cruel at all. The one behavior that one of my dogs has is that he REFUSES to come in the houses if it's raining-with the collar on-I call him and if he doesn't come in-I "beep" him for 1 second and he comes running!!!!


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## Maggies mom

Jazzys Mom said:


> Qui Chang Trainer said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is because in the UK, you are still using the old collar technology equivilent to those used in the North America in the late 60's.
> 
> Ok, then how do you support the fact that a friend of mine had an electric fence installed and the e-collar is used to train the dog. The trainer placed the "shock" collar on the PUPPY and sent the puppy 4 feet into the air with the SHOCK! The puppy landed on his shoulder and broke it! This was NOT a small dog - it was an ENGLISH BULL DOG. The trainer was asked by my friend why she didn't use a collar that had a gentler strength and her answer was she didn't have one with her! Granted --- this was definitely the fault of the trainer but it sure reinforces that a "SHOCK COLLAR IS JUST THAT ----- A SHOCK COLLAR"! Be it 1960 or 2007 ----- no difference ---- it is a shock collar and they are cruel!
> 
> Jazzys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> I call this person a *IDIOT*. First off you dont get an electric fence and use the e-collar to train it... And if the trainer is doing this to the puppy then they should be put out of business.....
Click to expand...


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## Jazzys Mom

The TRAINER was an IDIOT, yes, my friend is not an idiot! She only did what the fence people said had to be done to train a dog for the electric fence. And, everyone I have ever known has used the SHOCK collar to train a dog for the electric fence! My neighbor directly across the street used one and my friend just several doors down the bloce used one. I have comtemplated getting an electric fence myself and in doing research have found that using the SHOCK collar is part of the training for the electric fence! That's why I don't have an electric fence!!!!!!!! 

Jazzys Mom


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## Maggies mom

Guess the bottom line is that if you do your homework then it wouldnt have happen.....I have a regular fence and an electric fence because I have a jumper....(and he can jump a 6 ft privacy fence) A company put mine in with trainers, but I got the book before they install it to read up on it.....Most collars can be set to certain corrections.... Mine has only had one mild corrections and it didnt hurt him.....It was enough to scare him..... I test every level of correction on my self..... He is currently on a beep warning ..not a shock if he gets to close to the line.....


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## greg bell

I am on my 4th golden.. the first two hunted only the last two I used in field competition.. I can train a hunting dog up just fine to do most of the things a hunter wants.. provided the dog hasa the "stuff"... 
I got an ecollar when i got into competiton.. 
I have never ever had my dog yelp from use of an ecollar... I only got one when i decided to get into competion.. the new collars are totallydifferent from the early ones... if you are abusing your dog with an ecollar, then you would probably abuse your dog with a stick.. 
you use the ecollar only for reinforcement of commands the dog did not obey... usually at very long distances.. 
the english and american requirements in competition are vastly different.. the distances in american field trials is much greater... 
bottom line; the ecollar can be a tool of abuse in the hands of someone uneducated in their use or someone that is intentionally cruel. but you do not need an ecollar to be cruel. 
honestly, my dog takes corrections from the collar much better than being yelled at.. 
honestly, if you cannot train a dog to some level without one, then the ecollar will not shortcut this... but it does allow you to get that training to an advanced level and at great distances.....
force fetching is not about getting a dog that does not like birds to pick them up.... if your dog does not like birds and will not pick them up then i would not waste my time going through the force fetch routine.. the dog will never be a happy worker.. 
my dog has been forced and wears an ecollar... she is a very very happy and willing worker... 
get a good quality modern ecollar. .put it on a low level.. place the collar on your wrist and push the button... you will be amazed.. at the lowest level you will not even detect it... next level is kinda like a touch.. next level is like a tap (level i use).... 
the term shock collar for the modern ecollar is a misnomer.. true, you can crank it up and truly "shock" a dog, but nobody i know does that.. 
you MUST be educated in the proper use of the collar. you dont just strap it on and go to pushing buttons.. you will totally wreck your dog. 
my dog does not get the button pushed more than 2 or 3 times a year.. and she fully understands when it happens why it happened and I get immediate compliance with the command she just disobeyed.. no yelping or tail tucking.. just an "ok boss, i got it"....


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## JimS

I keep seeing people referring to the European dogs hunting and trialing in this thread...which I've tried to stay out of. As Greg pointed out, British (and I assume continental European) trials are a completely different beast than the North American counterparts. British trials emphasize patience in the dog, American trials emphasize drive. Thus the training methods are very different. In the end, they're both about picking up a bird and bringing it back....the judges are just looking for a completely different set of behaviours.

I also use e-collars. And I've also heard and seen horror stories of misuse. Personally, I'd love to see a certification program for owners who want to buy collars. Too many people think it's a remote control for the dog. One of my moronic customers was telling me that they bought a collar for their dog, and shocked it to try and make it come. Well, it had just the opposite effect. The dog yelped and ran off. The idiots had never taught it what stimulation from the collar meant...they just thought it would make the dog magically learn to understand English I guess. 

In the end, it's not the tool that's a bad thing...it's the people behind the button.


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## jessme7

Ok I dont want to get dragged in this very opinionated thread but I just want to say that if used right it is fine, just like any other correction device. I noticed a big differenced in getting Marley's attention when I used a ecollar on him. Before I used it on him I tried all the settings on myself, they were all fine, just like a little pinch. I would be hesitant to use the top 2 highest settings on him but only for emergency purpose (running into the street). I only use the two lowest, works just fine. If I can use it on myself repeatly I am sure for the right ways Marley is fine. The most important thing is to train yourself and your dog (not puppy) how to use the ecollar. Here is a good website, with really good trainers and info. Dog Training | Dog Obedience Training


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## gracie's mom

Wow. This topic is about as debatable as food. I had added my 2 cents worth on page 2 so here is my 4 cents. 
After reading everyones post it is evident that people use the collar for different reasons. One person said they want quick results. Another said they use it for obnoxious behavior. Yet another said their dog takes correction from the collar better then being yelled at. 
We have obviously become a society of instant gratification needers. To this I can only say, good things come to those who wait. 
For those that use it for obnoxious behavior, what did you use on your kids while they were growing up? The state doesn't allow shock collars on children and they are the most obnoxious beings on the face of the earth!: 
My feeling is Behavior Modification, without the use of pain or electrical devices is the more humane way to go. If you need your dog to behave, take the time to teach them without using force. If you only use the shock collar to keep them from running into the street, don't give them access to the street. Simple as that. If you want them to come when called, buy a 20 or 50 foot leash and only let them out on leash. When you say FeFe come, tug the leash and reinforce the behavior to come. Typically, Goldens are very smart and aim to please their owners. Time and patience will reep the results you desire.


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## Jazzys Mom

Yep, it sure is an opinionated thread and I too, don't want to get too involved in it. I think we have people on BOTH sides that have excellent arguments for and against the e-collar. As for the training articles that were mentioned, I went and read them and that would not be the type of training I would do. Not saying its wrong for some, just not right for me

Jazzys Mom


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## gracie's mom

Let me just add one more thought. 
I don't believe that anyone who chooses to use a shock collar is a "bad" pet owner. I think we can all take solice that most people that are pet owners, love their pets and would only want the best for them. The different methods in training shows the difference in beliefs of how to successfully teach your dog. 
The same holds true with all of this dog food recall. It is a terrible thing, but I don't believe that these companies were malicious in their intent. Their job is to put out a product in the most economical way with the best results. Nobody wanted to put out a product that would kill their consumers dogs. It was a tradgedy that I'm sure they are trying to render as quickly as possible.


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## FlyingQuizini

Qui Chang Trainer said:


> Gentle Readers,
> 
> The approach one takes to training a dog depends greatly upon the goals and wishes of the handler and how they view their relationship with their furry four legged assistant.
> 
> For those that view the dog as a friend or companion; they tend to express their wishes as a request that the dog may choose to comply with or not. They often offer treats as an added enticement to comply with the request. Electronic collars really don't fit into this training approach.
> 
> For those that view the relationship as a pack leader (master) and subordinate pack members; they tend to give commands that the dog is expected to comply with. This type of approach offers reward for compliance with commands and corrections for refusuals to comply with commands. This is the basic premise under which the force training methods are designed. Electronic collars work well with this training approach.
> 
> The most honorable Vern was correct in over use of any training aid, even the clicker. Overuse leads to "nagging" the dog, and nagging leads to an overall poor attitude towards training.
> 
> It is most difficult to make roast duck for dinner if the furry four footed friend ignors your request to fetch, choosing to chase butterflies rather than finding and bringing back the duck.
> 
> 
> Your Humble Servant,
> 
> Qui Chang Trainer


I use food rewards in my training quite frequently, but that makes me no less of a pack leader to my dogs, I assure you! And yes, my dogs to have a choice to comply or not -- as do all dogs. Even dogs trained with punishment.

To clarify, *overuse of a clicker or a lure does not create nagging*. *IMPROPER* use of a clicker or a lure can lead to nagging. The average pet owner does not have the patience to use a clicker as it was intended - for shaping behaviors. Further, many people, when training with a lure, mis-use the lure and end up using it more as a bribe than as a reward. The thing is, you can mis-use a clicker or a lure all you want to and you won't cause your dog pain. If you misuse an e-collar, you absolutely will. Not to mention that misuse of an e-collar can also create some nasty negative associations with things you never wanted to involve -- like my earlier example of using an e-collar for barking in obedience that created a dog who is fearful of heel position.

I'm sure that e-collars have their place for upper-level field work. I'm not dead-set against them for that purpose, I just choose to train a different way. I do believe, however, that e-collars should only be used in experienced hands -- and that those "experienced hands" need to be certified by some governing organization that, unfortunately, doesn't exist.

I'm sure some of you saw the recent article about the "trainer" in Chicago who was recently arrested for animal cruetly. She was putting THREE e-collars on dogs AT THE SAME TIME -- 2 on the neck and 1 on the groin! She was seen in a public park doing this to small-breed dogs. When a tool has that much potential for mis-use, I have to start to wonder if there's any way that the potential benefits to some can even come close to outweighing the risks?

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini

greg bell said:


> You MUST be educated in the proper use of the collar. you dont just strap it on and go to pushing buttons.. you will totally wreck your dog.
> my dog does not get the button pushed more than 2 or 3 times a year.. and she fully understands when it happens why it happened and I get immediate compliance with the command she just disobeyed.. no yelping or tail tucking.. just an "ok boss, i got it"....


If everyone used e-collars that responsibly, it would be a topic of much less debate, I'm sure!


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## goldencity

I agree with Gracies mom when she talks about behaviour modification- sounds like a lot of sense to me.
I too am not saying the people on here who use these collars are bad owners or that they dont care for thier pets, but when I first read this thread I thaught I would try to find a bit more out about these collars before saying anything. I did a bit of reading and posted the link to a site which seemed to summerise everything.
To my mind, if all the organisations listed think the collars ought to be banned, I'll accept they know what they are talking about! I'm not a vet, or a RSPCA inspector, guide dog trainer or animal behaviourist or any of the other experts listed, but I am prepared to take advice from those who know more than me.
If however, you are a bigger expert than all those professionals, then good luck to you!You must do as you think best.


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## Sunshine Goldens

I have an electric fence but do not use shock collars for training. Just wanted to throw out there that I DID take the correction myself, as did my hubby, before we went ahead with the installation. It is NOT an electrical shock like one would think of when placing a finger in an outlet. It is rather a very concentrated VIBRATION that feels very strange...but does not hurt. It does not cause burns, or marks (the prongs may just because they are metal) or any kind of damage. Now this is the MY EXPERIENCE with the brand of fencing I had installed. I also had a professional trainer work with my dogs as well. He STRONGLY encouraged us to take the correction before proceeding just so we would know exactly what it feels like.

I am curious to learn if those who are so opposed to them have ever felt the correction? Maybe there are versions out there that are not as I have described?


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## Emma&Tilly

What I dont understand (especially about the electric fence type collar) is if it truely is just an uncomfortable feeling...and it REALLY doesnt hurt the dog then how on earth does it work? Why would a dog stop dead at a boundry with just a strange vibration around their neck? (or even just a beep that threatens the shock) It must be something pretty strong if it makes the dog decide for itself that it does not want to go through it again (I assume that the dog will HAVE to be shocked at some point in the training?) What is going on in the dogs head? I believe people when they say they have tried them and they dont think they hurt but you are a human being that understands the concept and knows what is coming and when as you are fully in control of the situation...if you truely had no idea what was going on and a unexplainable pain came out of nowhere then I feel that would be a very stressful situation...I know the dogs are trained to understand where the boundries and I know you dont just shove on the collar and leave them to it but I still think at the end of the day the shock must be a pretty unpleasent experience for the 'fence' to be effective at all...if not how does it work?


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## cubbysan

My husband took the correction on the collar we had years ago for my shepherd. He said the samething. It "surprised you".


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## FlyingQuizini

Emma&Tilly said:


> What I dont understand (especially about the electric fence type collar) is if it truely is just an uncomfortable feeling...and it REALLY doesnt hurt the dog then how on earth does it work? Why would a dog stop dead at a boundry with just a strange vibration around their neck? (or even just a beep that threatens the shock) It must be something pretty strong if it makes the dog decide for itself that it does not want to go through it again (I assume that the dog will HAVE to be shocked at some point in the training?) What is going on in the dogs head? I believe people when they say they have tried them and they dont think they hurt but you are a human being that understands the concept and knows what is coming and when as you are fully in control of the situation...if you truely had no idea what was going on and a unexplainable pain came out of nowhere then I feel that would be a very stressful situation...I know the dogs are trained to understand where the boundries and I know you dont just shove on the collar and leave them to it but I still think at the end of the day the shock must be a pretty unpleasent experience for the 'fence' to be effective at all...if not how does it work?



Positive punishment (the adding of an aversive, like an e-collar) by definition, must result in a decrease in unwanted behavior in order to be considered "effective". If the use of an e-fence is working, it is because the punisher (the shock, vibration, whatever) is unpleasant enough in the mind of the dog so as not to repeat the associated behavior.

"Unpleasant" will be different for every dog - and will very according to circumstances. I see dogs all the time who, when in a high prey drive state and chasing a squirrel, will run right through the e-fence, more than happy to take the "shock" b/c the thrill of the chase trumps the zap of the collar. Problem is, once they're outside the property and the squirrel is gone, the same dog is no longer willing to take a "zap" from the collar to get back INTO the yard!

So yes - for the e-fence or collar to work, the dog MUST find it unpleasant. Where is the line between unpleasant and painful or even abusive? Only the dog knows! 

-S


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## Maggies mom

Well like I said , if you know what your doing and it works with your dog....I know someone who has a golden that Food and praise doesnt do a thing for this dog...and he is very stubborn.......


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## Emma&Tilly

FlyingQuizini said:


> Where is the line between unpleasant and painful or even abusive? Only the dog knows! -S


Very true...


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## Sunshine Goldens

Emma&Tilly said:


> What I dont understand (especially about the electric fence type collar) is if it truely is just an uncomfortable feeling...and it REALLY doesnt hurt the dog then how on earth does it work? Why would a dog stop dead at a boundry with just a strange vibration around their neck? (or even just a beep that threatens the shock) It must be something pretty strong if it makes the dog decide for itself that it does not want to go through it again (I assume that the dog will HAVE to be shocked at some point in the training?) What is going on in the dogs head? I believe people when they say they have tried them and they dont think they hurt but you are a human being that understands the concept and knows what is coming and when as you are fully in control of the situation...if you truely had no idea what was going on and a unexplainable pain came out of nowhere then I feel that would be a very stressful situation...I know the dogs are trained to understand where the boundries and I know you dont just shove on the collar and leave them to it but I still think at the end of the day the shock must be a pretty unpleasent experience for the 'fence' to be effective at all...if not how does it work?


 
The "correction" is surprising and shifts the dog's attention. It causes them to stop and reconsider that path (kind of like a scat mat may do or when you use a loud noise to startle a dog). The reason why e-fences don't work for all dogs is that some are not phazed by it. If it were truly a delivery of pain - it would likely be a lot more fool-proof.

The only true way you can understand the correction is by experiencing it yourself.


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## Jazzys Mom

Sunshine Goldens said:


> I have an electric fence but do not use shock collars for training. Just wanted to throw out there that I DID take the correction myself, as did my hubby, before we went ahead with the installation. It is NOT an electrical shock like one would think of when placing a finger in an outlet. It is rather a very concentrated VIBRATION that feels very strange...but does not hurt. It does not cause burns, or marks (the prongs may just because they are metal) or any kind of damage. Now this is the MY EXPERIENCE with the brand of fencing I had installed. I also had a professional trainer work with my dogs as well. He STRONGLY encouraged us to take the correction before proceeding just so we would know exactly what it feels like.
> 
> I am curious to learn if those who are so opposed to them have ever felt the correction? Maybe there are versions out there that are not as I have described?


No, I have never felt the correction nor would I want to. My across the street neighbor had her Beagle trained with an e-collar for the electric fence she had installed. Howard learned VERY quickly to stay inside the boundry lines. He tried to cross one time and yelped when the collar "punished" him. I would say thats more than a surprise. Now mind you, I have no idea where Howard's trainer had set the shock at. My daughter got a shock collar for her Golden, Mason, who has a tendency to "run all over mom!" Her husband tested the collar on himself and told her she had better not put that collar on Mason. $150 bucks wasted. Mason learned what they wanted him to through positive training methods and today he is a well behaved boy. Probably took a little longer but he didn't have to go through pain to get there. My son-in-law is a tough cookie and if he said the collar shocked then I believe him. I wouldn't have trained my kids with one so won't train my dogs with one either

Jazzys Mom


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## FlyingQuizini

Maggies mom said:


> Well like I said , if you know what your doing and it works with your dog....I know someone who has a golden that Food and praise doesnt do a thing for this dog...and he is very stubborn.......


OK. I swear I'm not just trying to argue... really... BUT...

ALL DOGS are motivated by food. If they weren't... they'd be DEAD! Sure, some dogs aren't motivated in the "I'll-do-whatever-you-want-just-give-me-the-cookie!" way, but truthfully, the only dogs that really don't care about food at all are the dead ones! Food is one of but a few primary reinforcers for dogs. There's always a way to maniuplate the value of food to make it more useful in training.

As for a dog not caring about priase - well, to me, that speaks volumes about the relationship (or perhaps, lack thereof) between the dog and the human. The last thing I would want to do in a situation like that is introduce the use of positive punishment because of the potential for fall out.

In keeping with the Golden in question (who cares little for food or praise)... what DOES he care about? Walks? Chasing squirrels? Tennis balls? Being left alone? There's almost always a way to use what the dog is telling you he wants as a reward in training. It doesn't have to be, "Well, he won't work for food, so lets teach him to work to avoid punishment."

Again - I'm not totally anti- e-collar.... just saying there are lots of other ways and it saddens me when I see people jump to the use of aversives and punishers sooner rather than later. That's all I'm saying...

-Stephanie


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## Maggies mom

FlyingQuizini said:


> OK. I swear I'm not just trying to argue... really... BUT...
> 
> ALL DOGS are motivated by food. If they weren't... they'd be DEAD! Sure, some dogs aren't motivated in the "I'll-do-whatever-you-want-just-give-me-the-cookie!" way, but truthfully, the only dogs that really don't care about food at all are the dead ones! Food is one of but a few primary reinforcers for dogs. There's always a way to maniuplate the value of food to make it more useful in training.
> 
> As for a dog not caring about priase - well, to me, that speaks volumes about the relationship (or perhaps, lack thereof) between the dog and the human. The last thing I would want to do in a situation like that is introduce the use of positive punishment because of the potential for fall out.
> 
> In keeping with the Golden in question (who cares little for food or praise)... what DOES he care about? Walks? Chasing squirrels? Tennis balls? Being left alone? There's almost always a way to use what the dog is telling you he wants as a reward in training. It doesn't have to be, "Well, he won't work for food, so lets teach him to work to avoid punishment."
> 
> Again - I'm not totally anti- e-collar.... just saying there are lots of other ways and it saddens me when I see people jump to the use of aversives and puni
> 
> -Stephanie


Really.... See this is where your wrong ...MY DOG ISNT DEAD, AND she doesnt respond to training with FOOD or TREATS...Doesnt matter if its steak, chicken , dog food, when she trains she will not take any kind of food from you.....I never said anything about using a e-collar to punish them.....And you know nothing about me or my dogs and dont know my relationship with my dogs so dont even go there.... There are plenty of dogs out there that react to different things.....


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## Jazzys Mom

Well, I have to agree that ALL dogs respond to SOMETHING! You just have to find out what it is. I had a beautiful Golden boy, Dakota that I had purchased as a puppy for conformation. Began training him to stack, etc and found that food was not a motivator for him. So, how was I going to handle this boy?? I had to find something that would work. We found that he went nuts when he saw a tiny flashlight beam. So we used this to our advantage. We placed him with a handler eventually and the handler would shine the light onto the floor just before bringing him into the ring. He came in up with ears erect and would go around that ring beautifully. Even beat out seasoned champions when he was just pointed! Then we found that a simple cat toy ----- a squeaky mouse would get him "up" and that we could bring IN the ring with us. If I had put a shock collar on this dog he would have just laid down and died right there on the spot. I could NEVER use any negative training methods on Dakota. Yes, he is just one example but I'm sure there are no conformation dogs being trained with a shock collar

Jazzys Mom


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## Maggies mom

Your right , they do respond to something, 



(Stephanie)

dont post all dogs are by Food or there dead.....when they arent.


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## Sunshine Goldens

Jazzys Mom said:


> No, I have never felt the correction nor would I want to. My across the street neighbor had her Beagle trained with an e-collar for the electric fence she had installed. Howard learned VERY quickly to stay inside the boundry lines. He tried to cross one time and yelped when the collar "punished" him. I would say thats more than a surprise. Now mind you, I have no idea where Howard's trainer had set the shock at. My daughter got a shock collar for her Golden, Mason, who has a tendency to "run all over mom!" Her husband tested the collar on himself and told her she had better not put that collar on Mason. $150 bucks wasted. Mason learned what they wanted him to through positive training methods and today he is a well behaved boy. Probably took a little longer but he didn't have to go through pain to get there. My son-in-law is a tough cookie and if he said the collar shocked then I believe him. I wouldn't have trained my kids with one so won't train my dogs with one either
> 
> Jazzys Mom


All I can tell you is my own experience with the system I have. I personally felt the correction, it was not at all "painful" otherwise it wouldn't be something I would use for my dogs. I also ran over a dog (who we adopted soon after) and I can tell you without hesitation - the pain he felt from being hit was much more severe than any correction from an electric fence collar. I can still feel what that impact felt like in my bones...but the correction from the e-fence collar has long since been forgotten.


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## Sunshine Goldens

Jazzys Mom said:


> Well, I have to agree that ALL dogs respond to SOMETHING! You just have to find out what it is. I had a beautiful Golden boy, Dakota that I had purchased as a puppy for conformation. Began training him to stack, etc and found that food was not a motivator for him. So, how was I going to handle this boy?? I had to find something that would work. We found that he went nuts when he saw a tiny flashlight beam. So we used this to our advantage. We placed him with a handler eventually and the handler would shine the light onto the floor just before bringing him into the ring. He came in up with ears erect and would go around that ring beautifully. Even beat out seasoned champions when he was just pointed! Then we found that a simple cat toy ----- a squeaky mouse would get him "up" and that we could bring IN the ring with us. If I had put a shock collar on this dog he would have just laid down and died right there on the spot. I could NEVER use any negative training methods on Dakota. Yes, he is just one example but I'm sure there are no conformation dogs being trained with a shock collar
> 
> Jazzys Mom


One of my dogs is most motivated by tennis balls! The promise of a tennis ball will get him to do just about anything!!! Another one of my dogs just BASKS in positive praise. Tell her she's a good girl and clap for her - and she's a wiggle butt and so proud to comply. Then there is the pug mix...who I ran over (and have spent my life making it up to him  ) now HE is food driven! He thinks very little of me if I have nothing tasty to offer. He does love attention and praise too - but has a threshold of "more interesting activities" in which food is the ONLY motivator. It's all so fascinating really!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Hmm, this might be going a bit off topic in the beginning. I have one food motivated dog, he'd break dance for a morsel, and one ball motivated dog. I also have one Golden who is sound sensitive. Is that because the sound is painful? Although I don't use the smoke alarm button to get him to stop counter surfing, it would work if I used it once. However, he is food motivated, so we keep plugging along. 

Also, what about the dog who has had all the training most are comfortable with and have been consistant for months on end, who will continue to run in the street? Is it better to use a collar (not a shock ~ they seem to respond to vibration, too) or let them get hit by a car? 

Has anyone involved with Positive training only ever come across a dog (doesn't matter what breed) that couldn't get to respond?


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## FlyingQuizini

Maggies mom said:


> Your right , they do respond to something but dont post all dogs are by Food or there dead.....


Does your dog eat.... EVER? If the answer is yes, then, at least to some degree, he is motivated by food. Granted, it may not be in such a way that food is the most obvious motivater for training - I totally understand that. That's why I was asking what the dog DOES like.

As for not using an e-collar as punishment, by definition, it is. Plain and simple. The addition of an aversive (something the dog wishes to avoid) used to decrease an unwanted behavior is the use of punishment. 

As for knowing nothing about you and your dogs and the relationship you share -- of course I don't! In fact, from that earlier post, it wasn't even clear that it was one of your dogs that you were speaking about. You just said you know of a dog who didn't care about food or praise. I do believe that if a dog doesn't care about praise from the human, that's something that can be worked on. It's just my opinion. You, of course, are free to disagree. 

As for a dog that doesn't care about food or praise when *working* as you mentioned -- I guess a lot would depend on the circumstances and trying to decipher WHY the dog is uninterested when *working*. It the environment too distracting? Is the dog worried? Have we just not hit on the right motivator for *that* dog in *those* circumstances? The possible answers are endless. That's what, to me, makes dog training so fun. It's often like a giant puzzle one must work through!


-S


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## FlyingQuizini

*Originally Posted by Maggies mom 
Well like I said , if you know what your doing and it works with your dog....I know someone who has a golden that Food and praise doesnt do a thing for this dog...and he is very stubborn....... *

Hey MaggiesMom - To clarify... Again, I'm not speaking about you and your dogs... From the way your post (above) was written, the implication was that "if you know what you're doing [with an e-collar] and it works for your dog" then it's a tool that can be used when food and praise isn't working.

Beacause I look at it technically - that an e-collar is a punisher (by definition), I was just pointing out that there are ways to manipulate motivators for dogs rather than having to resort to punishment. I totally understand that food and praise aren't the obvious choices for all dogs, but I still think you can find something that they WILL work for, other than just working to avoid an e-collar correction.

If I misunderstood the original intent of your statement (above) I apologize!

-S


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## Jazzys Mom

Maggies mom said:


> Your right , they do respond to something but dont post all dogs are by Food or there dead.....


You should really *LOOK *at the posts. *I DIDN'T POST THAT POST! I NEVER* *SAID THE WORD DEAD IN ANY OF MY POSTS!* So, you are wrong!! Know what --- and *WHO* you are talking about!!!

Jazzys Mom


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## Jazzys Mom

Kimm said:


> Hmm, this might be going a bit off topic in the beginning. I have one food motivated dog, he'd break dance for a morsel, and one ball motivated dog. I also have one Golden who is sound sensitive. Is that because the sound is painful? Although I don't use the smoke alarm button to get him to stop counter surfing, it would work if I used it once. However, he is food motivated, so we keep plugging along.
> 
> Also, what about the dog who has had all the training most are comfortable with and have been consistant for months on end, who will continue to run in the street? Is it better to use a collar (not a shock ~ they seem to respond to vibration, too) or let them get hit by a car?
> 
> Has anyone involved with Positive training only ever come across a dog (doesn't matter what breed) that couldn't get to respond?


No, so far and I have been training dogs for the better part of 30 years, I have not found SOMETHING that will motivate a dog. Such as my Dakota who was motivated by a flashlight beam and then a squeaky mouse. All dogs are nuts over something ----- a sock, a favorite toy, food, praise, a piece of paper crackling, popcorn --- heck I had a Golden that trained for freestyle obedience with CHERRIOS!. One dog had a squeaky potato that it loved, my Chelsea would turn flips for a tennis ball. All dogs are motivated by something so I don't see the reason for negative training aids

Jazzys Mom


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## FlyingQuizini

Jazzys Mom said:


> You should really *LOOK *at the posts. *I DIDN'T POST THAT POST! I NEVER* *SAID THE WORD DEAD IN ANY OF MY POSTS!* So, you are wrong!! Know what --- and *WHO* you are talking about!!!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


Hey Jazzy's Mom: I think you can relax. I'm almost certain that MaggieMom's comment about the dead part was aimed at me, not you.

You said all dogs respond to something. I said only dead dogs don't respond to food. I think she was addressing both of our statements in her comment.

Didn't mean to cause such a stir with that comment, by the way. It's something that's readily discussed among circles of dog trainers - especially the clicker training set, but I can see now, how it might not get very far outside of that circle. Sort of like how some of us who train for a living or who are really, really into training can spend hours delighting ourselves with a dog and a clicker, shaping a behavior one little step at a time (with criteria barely noticable to most)... and to many, that's about as exciting as watching grass grow!

-S


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## Jazzys Mom

Yeah, I think looking back at the posts you are right. Just kinda flew off there a little. Guess this is a subject that I feel strongly about. I don't want to offend anyone. I know what you mean by the clicker training. I spent most of last summer (when I wasn't sitting at the hospital with hubby) clicker training Jazzy. That little thing at 9 weeks old would snap her head around and stare into my eyes when I said watch. I still marvel at how easy it is to clicker train a dog, horse, any animal. My granddaughter has done some clicker work with her horses. With such positive training methods why on earth would someone want to train through fear and punishment??? Just eludes me!

Jazzys Mom


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## Sunshine Goldens

Jazzys Mom said:


> Yeah, I think looking back at the posts you are right. Just kinda flew off there a little. Guess this is a subject that I feel strongly about. I don't want to offend anyone. I know what you mean by the clicker training. I spent most of last summer (when I wasn't sitting at the hospital with hubby) clicker training Jazzy. That little thing at 9 weeks old would snap her head around and stare into my eyes when I said watch. I still marvel at how easy it is to clicker train a dog, horse, any animal. My granddaughter has done some clicker work with her horses. With such positive training methods why on earth would someone want to train through fear and punishment??? Just eludes me!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


 
I think positive training methods are absolutely WONDERFUL and should be tried with every dog. Believe me though, there are some dogs out there for whom "harsher" (and I use that term only because of the perception here of non-pos methods) are necessary. I can tell you something - there are dogs who would have been destroyed because they were thought to be "untrainable" and I include Goldens in that. Had it not been for a collective effort of a VARIETY of training methods - both positive and negative consequences - the dogs would never have been deemed adoptable. I would NEVER advise using any training technique without the direction of a trained pro and only when the philosophy of the technique is fully understood.

Now one thing I will add here - when you watch dogs interact together - they "correct" one another physically - either by blocking with their bodies, nipping one another, mounting one another, etc. They communicate with one another in this way - and I believe in training methods which tap into that instinct - particularly for those dogs who are not your garden variety goldens. We have had many of those come through rescue. There are many methods of training out there - and often more than one is needed to be successful. I keep my mind open.


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## Brinkleysmom

Let me just add that positive training is the way to go for almost all dogs but as always, there is an exception to every rule. Brinkley is so easy to train. BUT, Barney is a whole other story. Barney IS NOT food motivated or tennis ball or any other kind of ball motivated. My dad just recently got him the Ecollar and believe me, my dad loves this dog. But already he has seen significant improvement. And trust me, Barney is not being abused at all. Barney, I am sure had he been adopted to anyone else, would have been brought back numerous times for so many different things. Barney is a continued work in progress and shows improvement all the time. But there are just some things that he doesnt get and it takes time. But he gets the message with the E collar. My dad would never hurt Barney. And hopefully at some point, he will not need it but for now, he has it and it works. Keep in mind, its not on all the time. 
When I tell you he is not food motivated, he truly isnt. I give Brinks a treat for doing something. I try to let Barney know he can have the same thing. HE IS NOT INTERESTED. Goes about and does completely the opposite. 
Funny thing about the collar. My vet suggested it to my dad to try and see if it works.


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## ty823

I'm through getting into arguments over the internet, but just wanted to add that I used a shock collar in some hunting training and also to teach Lucy the boundaries of our yard, and it worked great. 
When we are having company over and I need her to be on her best behavior, I just put the collar on her and she behaves, even through the batteries have been dead for almost a year now. 
The collar we got came with a DVD that went through all the dangers and taught you how to use it right. If it causes your dog to yelp, that means you have it set too high. When I did have to use it, she would just stop what she was doing and cock her head a little, like she's thinking "What was that?"
Oh, it also worked great to stop her from digging in the yard.


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## Brinkleysmom

ty823 said:


> I'm through getting into arguments over the internet, but just wanted to add that I used a shock collar in some hunting training and also to teach Lucy the boundaries of our yard, and it worked great.
> When we are having company over and I need her to be on her best behavior, I just put the collar on her and she behaves, even through the batteries have been dead for almost a year now.
> The collar we got came with a DVD that went through all the dangers and taught you how to use it right. If it causes your dog to yelp, that means you have it set too high.


I think that is the same one my dad got too for Barney. It sounds just like it. And your absolutely right.


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## JimS

FlyingQuizini said:


> *Originally Posted by Maggies mom
> Well like I said , if you know what your doing and it works with your dog....I know someone who has a golden that Food and praise doesnt do a thing for this dog...and he is very stubborn....... *
> 
> 
> Beacause I look at it technically - that an e-collar is a punisher (by definition), I was just pointing out that there are ways to manipulate motivators for dogs rather than having to resort to punishment.



If my understanding of the four quadrants is correct, then that's not exactly right. The e-collar can also be used in escape training, in which the dog's behavior makes something undesirable (the stimulation) go away. That's actually negative reinforcement by definition, not punishment. It's a fairly common use in hunting retriever training. In fact, it's used to collar condition (teach the dog what stimulation of the collar means) dogs. 

Other examples of negative reinforcement include the good old prong collar. The dog is tugging at the end of the leash, and the collar pinches him...he stops pulling and the pinch goes away.


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## Qui Chang Trainer

So many are quick to condem that which they have no direct experience with nor understand. The electronic collar is a tool, just as the leash, flat collar, Halti etc., are tools. There are appropriate uses for tools and inappropriate uses for them, HOW they are used is in the hands of the handler. Any tool including a leash and flat collar can be misused to harm or even kill a dog. Don't blame inanimate objects for the actions of a handler. 

Many people balk at the term "force training" because they assume it means somebody is beating the stuffings out of some poor dog. That assumption is incorrect and based in ingnorance. 

As author Evan Graham wrote "Force is the application of pressure to induce a desired response." I would venture an estimation that 99 9/10 % of you "force train" your dogs and you don't even recognise it for what it is. Do you use a leash and collar or head halter with your dog? Yes! That's right, you're "force training" your dog. You applied pressure through the lead and collar to bring the dog into the desired position, and praised him when he complied with the command. 

Was the application of pressure causing pain, thus "Punishing" the dog? No, not likely, unless you're a very heavy handed dog handler. The force training approach employs the use of praise/reward for complying with known commands and the use of corrections/discomfort for refusing to comply with known commands. For better or worse this is the conventional training approach that has been used with success for centuries. It's effective, and it works. 

In a online discussion this week with one of my counterparts across the big pond in the UK, we discussed this very subject. He has trained several dogs over his lengthy career for competion in several venues. He is a strong advocate for the PO (positive only) approach (including clickers) for training a pet, but he does concede that there are limitations to its' effectiveness. If you can keep the dog in a controlled environment such as is found indoors, or in the training yard where you can control the frequency and type of distractions present it should serve many pet owners needs. However, if you're going to have the dog in uncontrolled environments such as outdoors in the field off lead, you're likely going to need to employ the use of more of the "conventional" training methods. 

The example he gave is appropriate. If you have "Fluffy" a PO/Clicker trained dog out with you in the field off lead, and he catches the scent of a nearby rabbit, how effective will the dogs training be when you give the recall command? He knows he is rewarded for complying with your command, but he will also be rewarded by following his innate instinct to hunt and give chase to the rabbit. At this moment the handler has lost control of the dog because the dog was presented with a situation for which it sees two possible "positive", rewarding outcomes. 

So long as the handler had control of the environment that the dog was exposed to, it was possible to maintain control. Put the same dog into an uncontrolled environment with sizable distractions and the dogs' response becomes unstable. 

Many hunters and field competitors use the conventional approach to training because it provides greater stabilty in the uncontrolled situations often found in the field. 

Many times people that try to use the PO approach in the field setting, find that their dogs trained abilities falter somewhat. Once in the field they see the appearance of trainability issues like dropped birds, recall refusals, vocalization, general unsteadiness, and an overall loss of focus and response to the handlers' commands. As handlers, they become frustrated because the dog "never" exhibited those flaws in the normal controlled environment its' regularly trained in. 

All training methods have there strengths and limitations and every training aid can be used appropriately or misused to hurt a dog. A good trainer/handler keeps their options open. 

Yes, Caesar Milan will use an Electronic collar if he feels it's appropriate and the best approach for a given dog/owner to be successful. He doesn't dismiss ANY possible training method if it will help an owner establish control of their dogs. (You shouldn't either.)


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## vrocco1

Qui Chang Trainer, You have to stop that. You are making too much sense. Do you want to ruin our argument? (just kidding). Thanks...


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## Goldndust

kellange123 said:


> What are some opinions about shock collars? We would like to train our dog for hunting and people who hunt with dogs around here said they are the way to go in the field. It isn't like I want to shock her all the time, we are looking at models with a vibrate feature just to get her attention when she is far off. What does everyone thing about it?


I have one, mine is Dogtra 200. Not all dogs need them, keep in mine there all very different...so I don't feel the need to put one on all dogs, many such as I chose to use one for the safety of mine while out hiking. They will speed up Obedience and i've also found timing can be done that much easier on corrections then with the regular lead. The dog is never forced, they are trained properly first before that collar ever goes on them, then it is used as a reinforcement if need be when at distance work or close up work on known commands. I've also found them to be that much easier on the dog then all those corrections that have to be handed out over and over again with some of them. I really think it depends on the dog, there is no one size fits all when it comes to using them, or not using them. The whole idea behind them is no different then with any other tool, the goal is too remove the tool in the end. 

I think the biggest thing about them is as mentioned in prior posts is you don't just slap one on a dog, that is not how they should be used. First you must train your dog properly, then one would Collar condition too the dog, then you find the correct setting to begin training with your dog by way of e-collar. I can tell you Kodes setting to begin training was around 25 if I remember correctly, that is a very low setting. It of course goes up as the distractions go up. 

When one hears the name Shock collars, they instantly think the dog is electricuted or something, lol. Really, that is not the way it is! Like mentioned above these collars have come a long ways from what they once were in the old days. My trainer for this actually made me hold this thing as she moved up the dial so as I would get an idea of what my dog is getting. At the beginning setting of what I mentioned Kodes setting was, it is more of a startle...that is all. It didn't hurt!

Good luck on your decision, if you do decide to use them find someone that can give you a little guidance on them first, as with any tool one uses.


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## tintallie

I just want to say that Qui Chang Trainer has hit it right on the nail. I have a dog who has really high prey drive and it is a REWARD for him to be able to chase a rabbit, garbage bag, blowing leaves, etc. He will always go for the CHASE before the treat I am holding. In fact he would probably come back for the treat after the chase is done which is useless in terms of keeping him safe if he ran into the street for his chase.

I don't let my dog off leash as he is NOT reliable because of this, however it has happened that the dog has jerked the leash out of DH's hands and he had to sprint after the dog for 5 blocks while Wiggles chased the rabbit.

I do not have control over my environment when I go for walks with Wiggles and I'm sure the hunters have no control of their environment during hunting season or during field trials.

Yesterday, I did a long distance down with Wiggles on leash tied to my car and I walked away down the block (100m,330ft) and gave the command. I had use a very loud voice plus a hand signal and Wiggles lied down. The distances that JimS and Greg Bell are probably using in hunting is probably much bigger than a city block. How are you going to "click" your way to getting your dog to retrieve or recall at that distance? Are you going to use a bullhorn and scare away the water fowl as well at the same time? To me, the e-collar seems like a better choice at that point. I personally wouldn't discount it as a method because I've tried different things with my dog and finally the prong collar was the right choice.

Maggie's Mom can confirm this, but I remember reading over the threads and Maggie isn't motivated by food. She had to change foods at least 5 times and finally settled on Innova because Maggie would flat out refuse to eat even if she was hungry...a few days of not eating right? Even then, the only human treats she gets are carrots, maybe a bit of yogurt or cheese.


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## FlyingQuizini

_The example he gave is appropriate. If you have "Fluffy" a PO/Clicker trained dog out with you in the field off lead, and he catches the scent of a nearby rabbit, how effective will the dogs training be when you give the recall command? He knows he is rewarded for complying with your command, but he will also be rewarded by following his innate instinct to hunt and give chase to the rabbit. At this moment the handler has lost control of the dog because the dog was presented with a situation for which it sees two possible "positive", rewarding outcomes._

How effective will the training be? Well, it can be very effective. I have a Whippet that I've called off the chase of small game and I have a Golden that I regularly call off the chase of all sorts of things. Neither dogs have been trained with an e-collar.

It really bothers me when people imply that things like a really solid recall (from distractions such as game) are not possible without the use of aversives.

I agree that all tools have their strengths and weaknesses and all tools are only as good as the people using them. Yes, there may come a time where my dogs encounter a distraction that is so great, they temporarily ignore my command to come when called -- but I've seen the same thing happen with dogs wearing e-collars --- they ignore the "buzz" of the collar in favor of doing (or not doing) what the handler is asking. At the end of the day, the dog is still out there making a choice. I'm must saying that I feel I can influence my dogs choices just as well with primarily positive methods as others can with "traditional" methods.

-Stephanie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Too bad Swampcollie doesn't post here, too. I always like to read his thoughts on the topic.


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## AquaClaraCanines

While I must say I have never met a sighthound that was motivated by food enough to use it in training... I must admit that yes, sure, they, are motivated by food to some degree. I could not clicker train my Whippet, though, because there is no food or toy that interests him enough to "load" him on the clicker- and my Salukis and Borzoi were even less foody than he is. 

That said, I never ever would prong or e collar a sighthound- all of mine have been off leash reliable and obedient without the use of such tools. 

I think it really depends on the dog... I would prong most Goldens if they needed it- I would never put a prong on a sighthound.


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## monomer

I have intentionally refrained from posting to this thread earlier, though I have some very specific thoughts on the use of this 'tool' and also have a bit of experience using it.

The problem I have with this thread is the 'clicker' and 'positive only' people are not being quite realistic in how much one can expect from using those methods... most especially when trying to get a dog to extinguish an unwanted behavior. And those in praise of using the shock collar make it sound all too easy to the casual reader (think of all the lurkers out there and in the future who will read your words and think they now possess all the pertinent knowledge to 'teach' their dog the fast and easy way).

I find great fault with the argument being used that 'its only a tool' just like any other collar and is only as good or as bad as the person using it... BALONEY! I'm really tired of hearing that argument as applied to guns and nuclear weapons, etc. too! Since you can kill a person with a screw driver... Are you telling me that the use of a screw driver or hammer is the equivalent to danger of mis-using nuclear weapons or assault rifles? The use of some 'tools' have greater potential to cause unspeakable harm than others! This must be a factor to be weighed-in when considering the usefulness of any 'tool'. There are characteristics of the shock collar that make it extremely dangerous in the 'wrong' person's hands... much more so than any prong collar or a choke collar, etc.

A dog does NOT know what just stung him in the neck... it could just as well have actually been a real bee... he surely doesn't relate it to you. For him it is only coincidence that his failure to respond to your desires might trigger another bee to sting him... but just maybe if he is smart enough and gets 'zapped' enough he will finally correlate it to having some connection to you. How would you feel if suddenly you got a bee sting in the neck while just doing normal things in the park?... you'd run around the park trying to get away from something you can't even see... then these random 'bee stings' continued to happen whenever you try to get comfortable and back to normal again? You'd panic and probably want to leave the park, since no other cause/effect is immediately apparent. But then you find you continue to get bee stung in the neck randomly even outside of the park... evil spirits? Who knows what you'd be thinking by this time but one thing is for sure, the experience would not be a pleasant one. In fact, it would probably drive you insane UNLESS you eventually noticed someone hundreds of feet away was waving his arms and expecting you to do something. IF you knew what it was you were suppose to do and IF you drew the correlation that IF you didn't do the right thing another bee would sting you in the neck, you'd finally realize you have some control over your fate and then life wouldn't be so bad. That is a lot of IFs... otherwise without this knowledge, those 'random' bee stings would serve no more purpose than being a vehicle to deliver extreme mental and physical torture to another living, thinking, feeling creature.

(How about a creepy example?: What if a cold clammy hand touched you on the shoulder just now but no one was there?... freak you out right, huh? probably run out of the room screaming... But it didn't even hurt you... Well, that's what mental anguish can do and that can be much worse than physical pain even. What if it were some spirit haunting your house and wanting to tell you something important? How long would it take for you to get the message n your panic state? So how is it supposed to be easier and quicker for a dog?)

This is exactly what happens when people attempt to use this device to TEACH commands... often with the concept that the collar is supposed to be used as the vehicle to deliver (escalating) punishment for non-compliance. I hope like hell that none of you who are espousing the 'miracles' of instant training are using this device in this fashion. However, this is the impression given to casual readers when postings are made with cavalier attitudes. This is the reason I think these threads are soooo **** dangerous. Either, take the time to fully explain the correct and proper use of the shock collar with all cautions and where the actual methods are the main discussion or shut-up and leave it alone. I'd hate to think of all the dogs that will be mentally tortured by their simple-minded owners who ran off 'half-cocked' because of some of the postings in this thread.

Remember many great field champions and obedience champions, etc were trained before the advent of these collars... it required time, patience, knowledge and skill... and I would think those are still the main requirements to training today. It seems too many are starting to think of the shock collar as the high-tech training 'short-cut' for the modern busy man-on-the-go of today or for the competitive owner who wants that 100% 'perfect' dog right now!

This is how I believe the shock collar should be used: It is to be used merely as a device to snap a dog out of his a pre-occupation with something else in his immediate environment that's competing for his attention. Its like a tap on the shoulder, to say "Hey guy, snap out of it!" At this point the dog's mind is free again to connect with the owner so he can now obey a command he already knows and is quite willing to do. To all novices: YOU DO NOT USE IT TO *TEACH* A COMMAND!!!! NOT EVER!!!! and IT IS NEVER TO BE SET HIGH ENOUGH TO BE USED AS PUNISHMENT!!! ...only use just enough to break the dog's concentration on 'whatever else' he has going on in his head at the time. He should never do more than maybe shake his head... NEVER A YELP! also, ALWAYS PRECEDE THE SHOCK WITH A SOUND and allow exactly the same amount of time for the dog to 'snap out of it' BEFORE delivering the shock. If done correctly the sound will probably only have to be 'paired' with a shock about a half dozen times or so before the sound will be all that's ever needed (meaning, it will become as effective as the shock). I believe any other method used (and I heard of some very cruel methods of application) with the shock collar constitutes animal cruelty.

I hate the espousing of this device on a public forum as its too easy to turn a shock collar into an instrument of torture when in the wrong hands. Too easy to dial up the pain... especially for a frustrated owner who didn't spend the time to properly train the dog up-front to begin with... and unfortunately these people are exactly the same types to be sooo attracted to the lure of 'easy and fast' dog training with a shock collar.


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## Maggies mom

Maggie has been in private lessons for over a year... and the trainer I use was ranked 2nd runner up to TOP trainer in my state......He has said several times that Maggie isnt your normal retriever and even if she was his dog he would NEVER EVER TRUST HER OFF LEASH WITH OUT AN E-COLLAR, She is Very HIGH Prey Driven.....I dont use it as a punishment to her.....90% of the time the vibrator mode is enough to get her attention.....


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## Kirby'sMom

After reading all these posts, I just wanted to say that we have seriously considered getting an e-collar for Kirby. We would only use it when off leash in the yard. I can't trust him not to run out into the street. He did this again just a couple nights ago while playing with DH. I need something to get his attention when he's in frapper mode running towards the busy street.


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## tintallie

I know someone said to take the Volhard Canine Personality Profile with a grain of salt. You have to do that with any personality test.

The dogs that DO need or have the potential to use an e-collar are dogs that have a high prey drive. These dogs are not untrainable, but take an extraordinary amount of patience and skill to train. Like Maggie's Mom said, her dog has been with a trainer for a year. We've had Wiggles through 2 sets of training lessons. It's not for a lack of dedication or time that these dogs are unable to be off leash reliably. It's what is already in their genes, and that's what the owners and trainers have to work with.

I haven't decided on that step to use an e-collar, but we don't take our dog off leash either. It is up for consideration, as this is what my uncle who is a hunter uses on his German Wired-Hair Pointer.


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## Maggies mom

tintallie said:


> I know someone said to take the Volhard Canine Personality Profile with a grain of salt. You have to do that with any personality test.
> 
> The dogs that DO need or have the potential to use an e-collar are dogs that have a high prey drive. These dogs are not untrainable, but take an extraordinary amount of patience and skill to train. Like Maggie's Mom said, her dog has been with a trainer for a year. We've had Wiggles through 2 sets of training lessons. It's not for a lack of dedication or time that these dogs are unable to be off leash reliably. It's what is already in their genes, and that's what the owners and trainers have to work with.
> 
> I haven't decided on that step to use an e-collar, but we don't take our dog off leash either. It is up for consideration, as this is what my uncle who is a hunter uses on his German Wired-Hair Pointer.


I agree with what you said and Here is how my trainer describes Maggie.... she is a male German Shepard trapped in a petite female golden Body....


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

tintallie said:


> The dogs that DO need or have the potential to use an e-collar are dogs that have a high prey drive. These dogs are not untrainable, but take an extraordinary amount of patience and skill to train. Like Maggie's Mom said, her dog has been with a trainer for a year. We've had Wiggles through 2 sets of training lessons. It's not for a lack of dedication or time that these dogs are unable to be off leash reliably. It's what is already in their genes, and that's what the owners and trainers have to work with.


This makes sense. It's like my having two children and not being able to raise them the same exact way. One is ADD...He's a great kid, but he was driven to distraction!


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## JimS

Kirby'sMom said:


> After reading all these posts, I just wanted to say that we have seriously considered getting an e-collar for Kirby. We would only use it when off leash in the yard. I can't trust him not to run out into the street. He did this again just a couple nights ago while playing with DH. I need something to get his attention when he's in frapper mode running towards the busy street.


Just please get an instructor to teach you to use it correctly. Remember, Kirby will have no clue what the stimulation means unless he's taught to understand it...and how he's supposed to react to it.




tintallie said:


> The dogs that DO need or have the potential to use an e-collar are dogs that have a high prey drive. These dogs are not untrainable, but take an extraordinary amount of patience and skill to train.


Actually, according to the Volhards, a high drive dog is easier to train. The easiest dog to train is high in prey, pack and moderate to high in fight.


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## FlyingQuizini

_Remember many great field champions and obedience champions, etc were trained before the advent of these collars... it required time, patience, knowledge and skill... and I would think those are still the main requirements to training today. It seems too many are starting to think of the shock collar as the high-tech training 'short-cut' for the modern busy man-on-the-go of today or for the competitive owner who wants that 100% 'perfect' dog right now!_

Amen to that!


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## Maggies mom

Well speaking for myself..its not a short cut and a fix for right now, other wise if it was I wouldnt be spending thousands of dollars for my dogs in private training..... IM sure it is for some tho..........


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

FlyingQuizini said:


> _Remember many great field champions and obedience champions, etc were trained before the advent of these collars... it required time, patience, knowledge and skill... and I would think those are still the main requirements to training today. It seems too many are starting to think of the shock collar as the high-tech training 'short-cut' for the modern busy man-on-the-go of today or for the competitive owner who wants that 100% 'perfect' dog right now!_
> 
> Amen to that!


I would love to know how many and read about the training methods used. When exactly was the e-collar invented? 

I don't use an e-collar, but I'm open to it if someone uses it correctly when they've exhausted other methods.


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## Chaucer and Mom

Sunshine Goldens said:


> The "correction" is surprising and shifts the dog's attention. It causes them to stop and reconsider that path (kind of like a scat mat may do or when you use a loud noise to startle a dog). The reason why e-fences don't work for all dogs is that some are not phazed by it. If it were truly a delivery of pain - it would likely be a lot more fool-proof.
> 
> The only true way you can understand the correction is by experiencing it yourself.


Having had an electric fence for 11 years, I've watched it work and I agree completely. The dog is stopped and redirected. I've felt the shock and it's uncomfortable, but not painful.


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## FlyingQuizini

Qui Chang Trainer said:


> Many hunters and field competitors use the conventional approach to training because it provides greater stabilty in the uncontrolled situations often found in the field.
> 
> Many times people that try to use the PO approach in the field setting, find that their dogs trained abilities falter somewhat. Once in the field they see the appearance of trainability issues like dropped birds, recall refusals, vocalization, general unsteadiness, and an overall loss of focus and response to the handlers' commands. As handlers, they become frustrated because the dog "never" exhibited those flaws in the normal controlled environment its' regularly trained in.


So are you saying e-collar dogs never get "collar-wise"? That's a huge drawback, IMO, to using tools like e-collars and sometimes even prong collars. They can be very difficult to successfully wean off of.

-Stephanie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

FlyingQuizini said:


> So are you saying e-collar dogs never get "collar-wise"? That's a huge drawback, IMO, to using tools like e-collars and sometimes even prong collars. They can be very difficult to successfully wean off of.
> 
> -Stephanie


So can treats! :doh: :doh: Sorry, I just couldn't resist.


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## Goldndust

Monomer, I believe all did explain the e-collar as well as doing it correctly. I have always said the same with the use of a plain buckle collar. The e-collar is just tool, that is all it is. It is no different then any other tool if used correctly as with any other tool one would choose to use. No one said it is a quick and easy way to train, it really isn't, all the ground work has to be laid down before one should ever put on the e-collar. The e-collar is NO excuse for not training your dog, nor is any other method that one may choose to use. It as I have said will speed up OB training, thats only because of timing can be more exact, as well as consistancy in all situations as well as distances. The e-collar does not train your dog, you do! Your description you laid out for many are very misleading, you use the word "Zap", you use the words zapped many times...this is not at all how it is done!! Your making it sound as if the dog is forced into compliance by zapping over and over again....not so!!! 

In life and death situations which there are out there, they can and do save lives along with the training that goes into there use. I've used mine alongside OB for remote training and signals, the only difference between the use of the e-collar and lead is instead of giving the correction by way of lead, it is done by remote. It is first worked in a no distraction area under a very low setting, the kind I took on when I held it. The setting completely depends on the individual dog and there focus in the early stages of training for the e-collar, but it is always the very lowest at which a dog shows you when it is first tested out in one and the trainer is looking for any thing to get the setting that the dog would show you, it's something so simple you have to watch closely to even get it, but it is nothing like you describe at all. I have not a clue where you come up with some of that stuff and what happens to dogs while in there use. 


FQ, no...if a dog is collar conditioned you should not get a collar wise dog, and yes....they do get off the collars. This is the goal, although if one would choose to keep it on, thats fine too. But if put on correctly in the beginning stages you will not get a collar wise dog with there use.


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## tintallie

I put multiple collars on my dog for walks, and one of them is the prong collar. Wiggles is VERY quick to pick up on things and also quick to not comply if it isn't what HE WANTS.

I have tried at different points on the walk to detach the live ring on the prong and leave only a leather collar hooked to the leash and he walks very similar. However, it will take a while to wean him off. It's not just prey drive and pack drive coming into play though, it is also how naturally dominant your dog is.

Everyday we work with Wiggles and he has to earn his food by waiting patiently. Each time we leave for a walk or arrive home I make sure he is in a sit, unlock the door, enter/leave first before he is allowed to. When our breeder came into town with his dam, she made a comment of how his dam was the queen of the roost. Well Wiggles has definitely inherited her temperament, because she snarled at him when he wanted to play and introduce himself. Wiggles took his paw and batted his dam acorss the muzzle. I don't think the breeder realized until that moment how dominant he was. This is not an 8 week course of obedience lessons that we are going to be done and Wiggles passes with flying colours. I have to say that this is a dog that I have to work with everyday of his life.

That being said, I've learned a lot in the past 10 months that Wiggles has been a part of this family and it is going to more than prepare me for a life time of owning Goldens 

One more thing...I think it would be interesting to see where the dogs (and owners of GRF who use e-collars) fall in the spectrum of being submissive/follower all the way to being dominant/leader of the pack. Chaucer's mom...have you found Chaucer to be dominant in the 14 months that you have been raising him? Have you noticed any change since he was neutered?


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## monomer

Goldndust... slowdown when reading my postings PLEASE.
After carefully re-reading my post, you might just want to EDIT yours. And if there is anything that confuses you, just ask me and I will detail it for you.


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## Goldndust

> And those in praise of using the shock collar make it sound all too easy to the casual reader (think of all the lurkers out there and in the future who will read your words and think they now possess all the pertinent knowledge to 'teach' their dog the fast and easy way).


No, we did not Monomer! The question was asked, and we all answered it completely and truthfully. No one said it was the fast and easy way to train ones dog. It actually isn't, there's a lot of ground work that goes in first. It will speed up OB training though as I already mentioned, that is do only to the fact of getting the timings in correctly as well as the consistancy even at distance work.



> I find great fault with the argument being used that 'its only a tool' just like any other collar and is only as good or as bad as the person using it... BALONEY!


It is only a tool, just like any other tool in the training world! It's all in how one uses them. We are not speaking of nuclear weapons here, nor screw drivers. 



> There are characteristics of the shock collar that make it extremely dangerous in the 'wrong' person's hands... much more so than any prong collar or a choke collar, etc.


How do you figure?

No one said anything about using an e-collar and the dog not knowing it's commands here. My post just kinda sets the record straight on the e-collar. I did edit a little by removing one sentence.


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## FlyingQuizini

Kimm said:


> So can treats! :doh: :doh: Sorry, I just couldn't resist.


Sure, if you use food rewards incorrectly -- as bribes vs. rewards. 

Again - it all comes down to how you use what you use. I still argue, though, that one could mis-use food rewards all day long and it's still more humane than mis-using an e-collar! 

Like I said before -- I have a real problem with people saying you can accomplish things with an e-collar that you cannot with "positive" methods. That is simply a factually untrue statement.


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## FlyingQuizini

Question:

To those of you who use e-collars... Does the fact that they can be purchased at most neighborhood discount stores -- thus making them easily accessible by any dog-owning member of the general public -- concern you at all?

I understand when *experienced* users speak of the benefits, but do you see a difference between how you might use one vs. how a totally inexperienced dog owner might use it? Things like not taking the time to teach a dog to come when called and just correcting with the collar when the dog doesn't come, etc? 

I'm asking a legit question to which I'm really interested in the answer.

It's easy to forget sometimes how "clueless" some members of society can be. A client of mine called me a couple years ago. He'd heard a lot about clicker training and wanted to try it. So he bought a clicker. He decided clicker training "didn't work". Turns out, he bought the clicker, "aimed" it at his dog (like it was a remote!), said "sit" and pushed the button on the clicker. Nothing happened. Must be 'cuz clicker training doesn't work!

Do we really want to be putting an e-collar in the hands of a guy like that? That's why I'm so opposed to them... b/c they can be purchased and used by just anybody... and a large percentage of that population shouldn't be allowed to put one within 100 yards of their dogs... much less around their dog's neck!

Sure - maybe YOU ALL who post here know what you're doing... but what about those who don't?

-Stephanie


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## Goldndust

Again - it all comes down to how you use what you use.


> I still argue, though, that one could mis-use food rewards all day long and it's still more humane than mis-using an e-collar!


Is it, you know many people view this a bit differently. To some, over feeding and obesity is not humane, it is cruelity also.

Actually, you can accomplish more by way of e-collar. You can get 99 percent reliability if you work hard, and a some years in to get that. Of course this is all individual.

With an e-collar, you can get 100 percent reliability.

Thats the difference between them as well as the amount of time it takes to get that.


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## monomer

Okay Goldndust, I'll play with you just this one time and then I'm going to bed... its crunch time for me as this is the final week of the semester here and then finals start... ugh!

The simple response of "the problem is not the XXX, its just a tool... its the person using it" dismisses the fact that the consequences of mis-use must be considered when deciding the prudence of allowing free access and use of dangerous items... or enticing others to use them. I don't want my neighbors all owning RPGs for their personal protection (from would be enemies who own Hummers of course )... can you imagine what would happen to the neighborhood if the kids got a hold of one? This is *supposed* to be an exaggerated example (ON PURPOSE! get it?) It's to help explain the foolishness behind the argument that a shock collar is no more dangerous than any other type of collar... its like saying an assault rifle is no more dangerous than a screw driver... GET IT NOW? And if you think assault rifles in the hands of the public is a good thing then Iran should also have nuclear weapons... face it stupid people make mistakes and some mistakes have more serious consequences than others.

With a 'restraining type' collar... buckle, choke, prong, gentle leader, what-have-you... there is no dispute in a dog's mind as to who is causing his discomfort and it is hard for you to not be aware of how much damage your are inflicting as there is a real physical component to the use of these types of collars, even when you are mis-using them. The connection is short, physical and obvious to the dog. The shock collar has no such physical connection between the dog and owner. The idea of how radio waves and capacitors electrical storage capabilities may combine to allow you to shock your dog at a distance is clear enough to you, however your dog can never make that kind of connection... it just an evil spirit that seems to arbitrarily sting his neck. (Its very much like a cold clammy hand pressed on your shoulder at any time... where you have no idea how its done or what it means... I don't care who you are, that's **** frightening.) The distance can be so great that the connection in a dog's mind will never be made.

Now, if a choke collar (or prong, or buckle, etc) is used correctly it is just a quick snapped and released, never choking the dog... it should be used merely as an irritant to get the dog's attention.... yet most people actually choke the dog because they really don't understand the technique. I see dogs choking all the time. What happens when a shock collar is mis-used?... I believe it should be set just high enough to get a dog's attention but many practitioners actually think its supposed to be used as punishment... and God knows what the novices think after reading a post or thread in which someone is extolling the benefits and simplicity of its use. If mistakenly used as a device to deliver punishment for non-compliance THEN it is now a device for both physical and mental torture of a nature quite unlike anything that can be delivered by the simple mis-use of a choke collar. There is no physical effort involved with pushing a button and thus no route for feedback to the trainer as to the true degree of physical pain being delivered, it is very easy for a novice to get carried away... especially after a frustrating day at the office, or in thinking the dog is just being spiteful, etc. Its the ease with which this can happen and the severity of the consequences that has me so concerned about proselytizing the use of the shock collar on an open forum (filled with 'lurkers'... people who ask no questions)... so NOW go back and re-read the part about being stung in the neck and how that could drive even a human insane. I hate to think of how many people are torturing their dogs today because they lack the understanding or technique to properly employ the shock collar. But according to you that is no worse that someone who mis-uses a choke collar... to that I say BALONEY! As I said from the outset... this is a very dangerous thread... that's become even more so by the proselytizing.


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## tintallie

The logic that something can be bought at the neighbourhood discount store and can be misused is no different than any other tool or weapon that can also be purchased and be misused. Don't forget the recent tragedy in Blacksburg. The shooter only needed to show an ID to purchase his weapons, no questions asked at the time.

Overfeeding your dog or your child is not humane. I remember hearing one story in the news about how social services had to intervene and threaten to take away a child into foster care because the mother kept overfeeding her son in England. This generation of kids in North America and Britain will be the first in a long while to die at an earlier age than their parents.

Besides, overfeeding your puppy or dog puts undue stress on their bones and joints and can put them at a greater risk of orthopedic injury. Would you feel any different if you had to carry extra weight on your body everyday? I recently watched an episode of "At the End of My Leash" with a dog trainer named Brad Pattison on the slice.ca channel. He was trying to retrain a family who was having difficulty with their beagle that was 60% overweight. It weighed at least 60something lbs. If it didn't die from what they were feeding the dog which included beer and chocolate, it was going to probably go through cardiac arrest


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## monomer

I'm not sure I'm following here...
Are you saying that a shock collar is no more dangerous to a dog than kibble? ...and also the consequences are no greater than the mis-use of a Glock pistol, 15 shot ammo clips, and 150 rounds?


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## FlyingQuizini

Goldndust said:


> Again - it all comes down to how you use what you use.
> 
> Is it, you know many people view this a bit differently. To some, over feeding and obesity is not humane, it is cruelity also.
> 
> Actually, you can accomplish more by way of e-collar. You can get 99 percent reliability if you work hard, and a some years in to get that. Of course this is all individual.
> 
> With an e-collar, you can get 100 percent reliability.
> 
> Thats the difference between them as well as the amount of time it takes to get that.


*Is it, you know many people view this a bit differently. To some, over feeding and obesity is not humane, it is cruelity also.*

Over-feeding to the point of obesity is VERY different from using a food reward incorrectly, say, as a bribe, to get the dog to do something. The fact that you would even attempt to draw that comparison is laughable to me.

*Actually, you can accomplish more by way of e-collar. You can get 99 percent reliability if you work hard, and a some years in to get that. Of course this is all individual. With an e-collar, you can get 100 percent reliability.*

That's a mighty bold statement -- 100 percent realibility with an e-collar? I hardly think so. But if you have independent research that supports that, please, show me.

I'm not sure I understand the first part of your statement about 99 percent realibility -- is that your estimate as to the success of positive training methods? Please clarify.

To the die-hard e-collar users out there: Why can't you consider that there might be more than one way to get the desired results? You don't have to *like* the alternative nor do you need to choose to use it -- but saying it doesn't work just b/c it's not what you do... what's the point of that? I'm not out there saying e-collars don't work... It's just not how I choose to train and I feel I have some very valid reasons - just as I'm sure you e-collar folks do, too.

Bottom Line:

Positive Reinforcement - works
Negative Reinforcement - works
Positive Punishment - works
Negative Punishment - works

They ALL work. They all have their strengthes and weaknesses. Effective training programs usually incorporate a little of each quadrant, for they all aren't mutually exclusive.

-Stephanie


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## Brinkleysmom

FlyingQuizini said:


> To the die-hard e-collar users out there: Why can't you consider that there might be more than one way to get the desired results? You don't have to *like* the alternative nor do you need to choose to use it -- but saying it doesn't work just b/c it's not what you do... what's the point of that? I'm not out there saying e-collars don't work... It's just not how I choose to train and I feel I have some very valid reasons - just as I'm sure you e-collar folks do, too.
> 
> 
> -Stephanie



I agree with this statement one hundred percent. I think both parties have something to offer but I dont think people should disrespect each other's way of training. Even if they disagree, if both parties are having positive results, that is what matters. We may not like one person's way of doing things, and we choose to do it another; but that does not make it wrong, and that we should respect. The bottom line is that if a person's method of training is working and it has positive results and the dog is not being injured, abused or anything harmful, then appreciate that.


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## JimS

FlyingQuizini said:


> Question:
> 
> To those of you who use e-collars... Does the fact that they can be purchased at most neighborhood discount stores -- thus making them easily accessible by any dog-owning member of the general public -- concern you at all?
> 
> It's easy to forget sometimes how "clueless" some members of society can be.
> 
> Sure - maybe YOU ALL who post here know what you're doing... but what about those who don't?
> 
> -Stephanie


I've said it time and again...including in this thread. I honestly believe that people should be required to sit through a training course in order to purchase an e-collar. A simple certification course administered by the e-collar manufacturers is all it would take. E-tailers could conduct it online, brick and mortar stores by simply sitting people in a room with a DVD player or online, professional trainers (who sell them) could choose to instruct whatever way they choose. Using an e-collar isn't rocket science...but it's not intuitive to most people. A half hour of training can go a long way.

This really isn't asking too much. The Invisible Fence (actually Innotek) people train their customers. All manufacturers of e-collars suggest training and most if not all have video tapes and DVD's to help. There are only a handful of manufacturers (I believe only Tritronics, Dogtra, Innotek, DT, Petsafe/Sportdog), they could work together or individually to produce the materials and choose the testing criteria. 

People are and can be clueless. As far as I'm concerned, my responsibility ends at my dogs. I'm not going to call for the elimination of a product for the simple reason that it *can* be used wrong...or by morons.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

JimS said:


> I've said it time and again...including in this thread. I honestly believe that people should be required to sit through a training course in order to purchase an e-collar. A simple certification course administered by the e-collar manufacturers is all it would take. E-tailers could conduct it online, brick and mortar stores by simply sitting people in a room with a DVD player or online, professional trainers (who sell them) could choose to instruct whatever way they choose. Using an e-collar isn't rocket science...but it's not intuitive to most people. A half hour of training can go a long way.
> 
> This really isn't asking too much. The Invisible Fence (actually Innotek) people train their customers. All manufacturers of e-collars suggest training and most if not all have video tapes and DVD's to help. There are only a handful of manufacturers (I believe only Tritronics, Dogtra, Innotek, DT, Petsafe/Sportdog), they could work together or individually to produce the materials and choose the testing criteria.
> 
> People are and can be clueless. As far as I'm concerned, my responsibility ends at my dogs. I'm not going to call for the elimination of a product for the simple reason that it *can* be used wrong...or by morons.


This makes perfect sense to me. Changing one's mind on their method of training isn't always easy, but an education on it's use is wonderful.

As for using food as a reward incorrectly...We were taught at a facility called PawsNEffect in Hamden CT. I think if you read their methods and notice their credentials you will see we were taught well on the proper use.


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## goldencity

www.advocatesforanimals.org.uk/pdf/electricshockcollars.pdf
sums up everything I can find out.
It confirms my view that these collars are wrong- and before all of those who disagree start, the list of people supporting this is-
British Small Animal Vetinary Association, British Vetinary Association ,The Scottish SPCA, Scottish Kennel Club, UK Kennel Club, Dogs Trust [Canine defense league] RSPCA, Blue Cross, Association of Pet Behaviour Councillors, Guide Dogs for the Blind, association of Chief Police officers, The UK Armed Services.

Since my first post on this thread I have followed it with interest. It seems there are many of you out there who really like these collars and , to a casual reader, they appear to be a miricle cure for untrained dogs and can be used as a sort of "remote control" to prevent running off, barking or other unwanted behaviours. Several people said that that was how they stopped their dogs running into the road......
Now before you all shout at me, that YOU dont use your collars as a"remote control" or punishment devise, I dare say you dont BUT there are lots of stupid people out there who will!

I dont claim to be any sort of expert, so as I said earlier, I did some research from people who ARE experts [see link above]. 
Reading the opinions of the organisations listed above, plus the fact that Denmark, Australia, Austria [new law will be in place by 2009],Germany, Switzerland and Slovenia have already banned them confirms my belief that they are not the way to go.

As for those of you who go shooting and claim you need a shock collar, 2 of my cousins are professional game keepers and have beautifully trained dogs, using conventional methods. However,I suppose you will just say its "different" where you live......

By the way, on another post someone said they used a shock collar to prevent a dog running into the road..... how does it do this? Dog starts to run away, you shout dog, dog ignores you, you use shock collar, dog runs faster to get away from the shock...........


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

"As for those of you who go shooting and claim you need a shock collar, 2 of my cousins are professional game keepers and have beautifully trained dogs, using conventional methods. However,I suppose you will just say its "different" where you live......"

I would love to know what methods they use to train. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'd really love to learn more. I know hunters work from a distance and I'm wondering how they manage that.


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## JimS

goldencity said:


> Now before you all shout at me, that YOU dont use your collars as a"remote control" or punishment devise, I dare say you dont BUT there are lots of stupid people out there who will!
> 
> .


And we should eliminate everything that stupid people use wrong? Okay, no more guns, booze, cigarettes (is there really a correct use?), power tools, automobiles, bed sheets, toothbrushes, baby aspirin, or any other product ever brought to market. 

We simply can't have a world that dumbs itself down so that the idiots among us can't find anything to get themselves into trouble with. Idiots are always going to be around and they're always going to use things incorrectly...sometimes with disasterous results. 

Yes, dogs in the UK are trained regularly to very high standards without e-collars...but at least in terms of competition, they're trained for a very different game than what's played in North America (which btw is a different game than it was just 25 years ago). When the US sent an international team to compete in the World Retriever Trials, it only did so-so (including Connie Cleveland's AFC/OTCh Eli..afaik the only Golden on the US team). It's not the game they trained for. I imagine a European dog competing over here would have much the same problem. I'm not saying that there will never be an American Field Champion trained without an e-collar...but they're going to be pretty few and far between. As breeding standards and training techniques (for hunting dogs) have improved...mostly as a result of the Hunt Test sport, more and more is expected of the dog....and the trainer.


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## Goldndust

> To those of you who use e-collars... Does the fact that they can be purchased at most neighborhood discount stores -- thus making them easily accessible by any dog-owning member of the general public -- concern you at all?


No, I am not concerned by that at all. This is a free country, I would like it too remain as such. I can tell you this, those collars have been out and for purchase for a long time, and I was one of those people that didn't know much about them at one time. I never even considered one since I knew nothing of them then. I found out pretty much all I had to know and also paid for the help I needed which was another 180 bucks on top of the 200 for the device for the training and use of it. It is not a cheap way to train a dog, nor is it one that every owner picks up on. I'd like to give everyone else some credit as being as I and not believing that just because you see one on the shelf that it should bring fear to us all here or make one feel as if they shouldn't be out there to use. There are knives out there as well for sale, does that also mean I should be concerned or worried??? Of course not!! 

I really don't think you all are giving everyone enough credit out there, really....people are a bit smarter then your making them out too be. 

Yes, there are some crazy people out there that could miss use an e-collar, or anything for that matter. But we can't empty our shelves do too those such as these and think everyone is like them. If one was too pull the e-collars, those types would just find another means to harm....how many rescue dogs are harmed by abuse, but yet no e-collar was ever put on them.


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## goldencity

I just knew it would be different for you..........


You are, however, still missing my main point. That is the fact that a LONG list of very well respected animal welfare agencies and canine experts ALL recomend that these collars should be banned. 

As for guns, well I'm glad they are banned from general ownership in the UK, Booze, not for the under 18's, tobacco, not for the under 16's[ smoking also now banned in public places], motor vehicles only for the over 18's after a strict test. Other items you mention, well any one can use silly examples. Of course you cant live in a world without risk, but how can you sanction the use of an item which so many genuine experts think is cruel?


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## Goldndust

Stephanie, you will get 100 percent compliancy if you train correctly for the e-collar use, it is a bold statement...but it is also a true statement. Look at our police dogs, this is the compliancy my trainer trains for as well as has worked under and she is totally certified in many area's of training. And to answer your question about there may be more then one way to get a desired effect, there is other way. But they are not the only ways and they DO NOT work for all dogs! Not all dogs are the Bianka's of the world, she was pretty much positive trained, but did use a pinch collar since that area was her problem. I totally understand both area's of training since I have myself done it, but you need to understand not all dogs are the same, nor is there training. Each dog is individual. You also have to bring into accout, what this dog does, as well as where it goes and the safety factor of it.
And yes, I very much did say 99 percent effectiveness if trained correctly and sometimes years to get that, in all situations and under the heaviest of distractions off lead. There's always that one percent in there that at any given time at the right moment that dog will slip, once it does you have no means of correcting it at the moment it happens, consistancy broken in training. Now what if that slip of is right in front of a car?
In the e-collar, you will get 100 percent reliability if trained correctly. There is no inconsistancies, you can reach the dog even at 100 yards out and signal the command so as there is no inconsitancies in it's training do to all the ground work put in before that while in the e-collar, dogs pick up very quickly on if there on line they must comply, take them off the line and put them out 100 yards and see what you have under the right moment and you've lost your dog and you have no means of correcting it. Now how many people has this happened too out there? This only reinforces a bad behavior and the dogs pick up quickly on when they must comply and when they don't have too.


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## AquaClaraCanines

Stephanie's dogs are clearly obsese... that 40 pound Golden... he can barely walk


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## JimS

goldencity said:


> I just knew it would be different for you..........
> 
> 
> You are, however, still missing my main point. That is the fact that a LONG list of very well respected animal welfare agencies and canine experts ALL recomend that these collars should be banned.
> 
> As for guns, well I'm glad they are banned from general ownership in the UK, Booze, not for the under 18's, tobacco, not for the under 16's[ smoking also now banned in public places], motor vehicles only for the over 18's after a strict test. Other items you mention, well any one can use silly examples. Of course you cant live in a world without risk, but how can you sanction the use of an item which so many genuine experts think is cruel?


If I give you a list with twice as many "genuine experts" claiming that e-collar's are the greatest thing ever will it change your mind? The fact of it is that all of those people have an agenda....just as anyone I might bring up will. I wonder just how many of these people have actually seen a dog trained correctly with an e-collar? I have. I've done it. I've also experienced the highest level of stimulation that I've ever used on a collar, and higher...and frankly, would rather the dog feel that stimulation than a hard check on a flat buckle collar.... My Tritronics collar has eighteen degrees of stimulation, ranging from imperceptable up to brutal. The highest I've ever used is 6 (we generally train at 4, which is the lowest setting that Kali actually notices it)...and have no problems at all holding it against my palm at 10. The fact that it can go up higher doesn't mean that I'm going to crank it up. 

Take a peek at this video...it's the one labeled Tucson Arizona Home Show. It shows a 4 year old taking a "burn" from an e-collar. I'm not a big fan of Fred Hassan...but it's still a pretty good video for showing just how painful an e-collar is when used correctly. Fred Hassen's Dog Training Blog | Sit Means Sit Dog Training 1-866-SIT-M-SIT


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## Goldndust

Monomer, One thing I have figured out very well is YOU are very much against the e-collar! You, do not use one, nor do I feel you truly understand them. You are making them out to be torture too a dog, by way of far fetched examples from what I have seen. I think from the beginning stages everyone has said, get help with there use, as we all pretty much say with collars. Speaking of playing with people, you sure do! You have totally missed the whole beginning stages of the training for an e-collar, and have miss lead others to believe dogs are just zapped and zapped by your examples! This is just so not true! 

The biggest danger of these threads, or any threads for that matter is not the people reading them, it is of those that put the fear of God into others that truely need an e-collar by those that do not understand them. In the wrong hands, any tool can be dangerous! Miss use of a choke collar can cause serious damage too the neck Monomer. And this thread is by no means a very dangerous thread....maybe in your eyes it is. But in others it can help them to understand them better and how they work. 

No one in here in this thread agree's with the miss use of a an e-collar or any other tool for that matter, but at the same time trying to put the fear of God into one isn't the answer either as you are doing simply because you do not like them, or use them! Not every dog out there needs one, this I also stated. But too those that do, get the help and training you need before ever putting one on your dog. They can and do help fix problems one may have that can be life threatening to a dog, or a person. 

Never use one on an aggressive dog, or allow it by anyone! In these cases, you need someone that knows and understands dogs and just using NILIF will not fix those underlying problems. These dogs need specialized help, it isn't always a training issue when your dealing with aggression, this is why I mention the expertise needed when dealing with them.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I dont think any method can be considered 100% reliable for all dogs. And only for an individual dog if at the end of the dog's natural lifespan, you can say he never disobeyed one single time in his entire life after the training process was completed.


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## AquaClaraCanines

For the record, I am not against the correct use of e-collars, though I prefer not to use one, and I have never encountered a situation where I felt like I needed one (and I have handled a lot of dogs). On the other hand, I do use a prong collar. I would never use an ear pinch. We're all different- I just know what works for me, and when I can use a positive method that doesn't involve hurting my animal, I certainly prefer that.


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## greg bell

I have had 4 goldens.. all were hunting dogs.. the first two i trained without an ecollar.. and they were fine.. for hunting.. however, with the last two I got into the competitive game of field trials and hunt tests.. 
the demands of these sports and the distances involved require so much..
I have a pretty sensitive little female golden and she deals with the ecollar just fine... it is just a way for me to reach out and "touch" her at these great distances.. the modern collar has evolved to where you really do not need to "shock" the dog.. if you knew how you set this up, you would not be asking the questions that you ask.. 
there is no yelping or other bad reaction to pushing the button on a properly set collar.. quite frankly, my dog responds much better to the collar than to me saying "NO!!!"... 
treats work if the treat is better than the distraction.. 
when i strap the ecollar on, her tail is wagging because she knows she is going to work.. and she loves her work.. 
yep, you can mistreat a dog with an ecollar... but you can also mistreat one with a stick or a leash... 
at a field trial or hunt test, anyone seen mistreating a dog is kicked off the grounds.. and reported to akc... most people in this game love their dogs just as much as anyone else.. 
I daresay that mine spends more hours per day with me than most anyone.. she is with me constantly.. inside and out and we go out to train every day .. and the ecollar goes on when it is time to train.. 
just as an example, when you first set an ecollar up to find your dogs level, you start at the lowest level.. u then move up until the dogs looks up with a puzzled look.. that is your dogs level.... 
as for the question regarding not running into the street.. i wont go into the whole senario, but if the dog is properly conditioned to the collar and trained with it, it knows the proper response to turn off the collar.. 
u dont just strap these things on and go to pushing buttons.. those of you that think that, should not have one... then it becomes a cruel tool.. 
I dont know how many of you can call your dogs off when they are in hot pursuit of a rabbitt, but i can.. and i dont have to have the ecollar on... i dont know how many of you require your dogs to sit on command at 250 yds and then take a cast in the proper direction..but i can... i dont now how many of you have ever even seen or run in an american trial or hunt test..i have.. 
you talk about getting your dog to mind with treats.. yeah, i can do that..up to a point.. you cannot train a dog with an ecollar if you cant do it without one.. up to a point.. 
beautifully trained is a subjective evaluation.. the modern american trial makes it very very difficult with all the diversions they put into a test.. there has to be absolute obedience at great distances with extreme distractions.. 
i think you should try it before you say it can be done in another manner.. and i am not talking about junior hunt tests... 
go get your FC using only positive reinforcement.. then come back and talk ..... or even your hrch or mh.. 
it has been done.. but far and few between... 
actually the training was much harsher before the use of the modern ecollar..


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## JimS

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I dont think any method can be considered 100% reliable for all dogs. And only for an individual dog if at the end of the dog's natural lifespan, you can say he never disobeyed one single time in his entire life after the training process was completed.


As long as dogs are living, breathing animals with minds of their own, no method will be 100%. You just have to aspire to get as close as you can.


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## AquaClaraCanines

exactly my point


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## ty823

greg bell said:


> actually the training was much harsher before the use of the modern ecollar..


I have an old bird dog training book (1950s maybe) that has a section on using a slingshot or BB gun on your dog. This is apparently what they used before the shock collar was invented.


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## Goldndust

AquaClaraCanines said:


> For the record, I am not against the correct use of e-collars, though I prefer not to use one, and I have never encountered a situation where I felt like I needed one (and I have handled a lot of dogs). On the other hand, I do use a prong collar. I would never use an ear pinch. We're all different- I just know what works for me, and when I can use a positive method that doesn't involve hurting my animal, I certainly prefer that.


One can train for OB by way of e-collar, and believe me it is much less painful then a any collar correction will ever be in those cases where those corrections must constantly be given even though the dog knows the commands. Not everyone has one like these, nor have they ever dealt with one, but they are out there.

I totally agree, one has to know what works for there individual dog, one has to also know what doesn't. The e-collar by no means hurts ones dog as many in here have made it out too. If the training is done properly, and correctly. The remotes once used only last for a fraction of a second, just enough to get the dogs attention and focus back on track. Many do come with vibration modes, mine does this as well. But do get help before ever using one because if you screw up, you have to go back and fix that, as you do with lead training, or any other type of training you are working on at that time. This is why it's so important to get the help, so as you don't make the mistakes and so you don't have too back track. My dog has been worked with the e-collar around children as well as adults.


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## Goldndust

JimS said:


> As long as dogs are living, breathing animals with minds of their own, no method will be 100%. You just have to aspire to get as close as you can.


Really, how do explain the police dogs and the field dogs? 100 percent reliability. It has to be there, the dangerers are too great out there for it not to be.

The secret behind any training method is being able to be consistant under all distractions off lead when trained. The e-collar allows for consistancy in that one percent that isn't there, and allows it to be corrected at that very second as it is sopposed to be. Not 10 minutes down the road after you've caught your dog, but at that very second in time it happens.


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## AquaClaraCanines

I don't use a collar for obedience at all... only for severe puller behavior modification. My own dogs never pull in the first place, bc I work them from day one as puppies. When doing formal competition obedience training, my dog is nekkid- not even a buckle collar. I think that's a lot of MY personal feeling- something that is for the quality of life of the dog (being able to take a walk for exercise) might warrant corrective methods... but something that is a competition for ribbons and glory for the OWNER... should be FUN for the dog... so I try hard to make sure I do not use aversives or anything harsh when training my dog to win a competition to make ME look and feel good. The dog couldn't care less- he would have as much fun playing in the field for fun as he would at a trial.


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## JimS

Goldndust said:


> Really, how do explain the police dogs and the field dogs? 100 percent reliability. It has to be there, the dangerers are too great out there for it not to be.
> 
> The secret behind any training method is being able to be consistant under all distractions off lead when trained. The e-collar allows for consistancy in that one percent that isn't there, and allows it to be corrected at that very second as it is sopposed to be. Not 10 minutes down the road after you've caught your dog, but at that very second in time it happens.


It's simple. They aren't. They're ****** close...but no living thing is ever or will ever be perfect. Do you honestly believe that a Police handler never has to give a command twice? You train to the highest standard possible, but perfection is just not something that can be accomplished...only worked towards.


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## AquaClaraCanines

If you have to give a correction at all (with an e collar or anything else) then the dog ISN'T 100% reliable


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I've heard of police dogs that won't release on occasion...


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## FlyingQuizini

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Stephanie's dogs are clearly obsese... that 40 pound Golden... he can barely walk


:You_Rock_ 

Haha! That made my morning... thank you!


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## FlyingQuizini

Goldndust said:


> I really don't think you all are giving everyone enough credit out there, really....people are a bit smarter then your making them out too be.


And I really don't think that you are considering the fact that many AREN'T as smart (when it comes to the use of an e-collar) as YOU'RE making them out to be...

That's WONDERFUL that you don't mis-use your e-collar and I'm glad you've had good results. 

I admit that I am way more sensitive to the dangers of misinformed and uneducated people using different dog training tools because I encounter it so often in my line of work. If it were just me training my own dogs for fun and for sport, I might be considerably more likely to think that everyone knows what they're doing and could be capable of using a tool like an e-collar in a responsible manner. However, my experience with a large percentage of the dog-owning population has been otherwise. 

-S


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## AquaClaraCanines

If you ever doubt how stupid most people are about dogs, just go to a dog park for a half hour and watch. Or walk through Petsmart on a Saturday.......... or sit in the waiting room at a vet...


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## Maggies mom

AquaClaraCanines said:


> If you ever doubt how stupid most people are about dogs, just go to a dog park for a half hour and watch. Or walk through Petsmart on a Saturday.......... or sit in the waiting room at a vet...


I totally agree about Petsmart.....I wont take my dogs there anymore , because idiots cant keep there dogs under control...... Maggie has been attacked there 3 times....and to boot they try and control a dog on a flexi lead that has no business being on one


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## FlyingQuizini

Maggies mom said:


> I totally agree about Petsmart.....I wont take my dogs there anymore , because idiots cant keep there dogs under control...... Maggie has been attacked there 3 times....and to boot they try and control a dog on a flexi lead that has no business being on one


HEY! Let's give THOSE people an e-collar! Bet that would fix all the problems and without any negative side effects! :doh: 

See.. and that's where I feel we have the biggest problem. The "idiots" (described above) might be (and often are) all too tempted to strap on an e-collar under the illusion of it providing all the control they want/need w/o having to invest the time in training. That's just not fair to the dog; can damage the dog/owner relationship; can be inhumane in the wrong hands; and YES - gives e-collars a very bad rap, even for the people who may choose to use them responsibly.

If you use one responsibly, good for you! Hold your head high and pat yourself on the back for being capable of something that many are not. All I ask, however, is that you (and by "you" I mean e-collar users in general, not anyone specifically in this conversation) not make blanket generalizations that the same level of success would not be possible w/o the use of the e-collar. You're welcome to say you don't feel YOU would have achieved the same level of success w/o the collar, but that doesn't mean it's not possible.


-Stephanie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I never thought to ask the question. How many certified trainers do we have on this forum?


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## AquaClaraCanines

There's no such thing- not officially governed or nationwide. Anyone can go get certified at any number of places, including Petsmart.


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## JimS

Kimm said:


> I never thought to ask the question. How many certified trainers do we have on this forum?


Certified by whom and for what? PetSmart trainers are certified by PetSmart. One of the pet dog trainers organizations, I believe it's the APDT has a certification program for trainers, giving them the title CPDT if they pass a written test and meet other criteria. All of the dog training schools...even the mail order degree mills give their own certification.

When I look for an instructor, I don't look for certifications. I look for ribbons in the venues that we plan to participate in. I don't expect my basic obedience instructor to know her way around hunting.


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## FlyingQuizini

Kimm said:


> I never thought to ask the question. How many certified trainers do we have on this forum?


Oh, my good woman.... now THAT is a topic for another discussion of 14+ pages all in and of itself!


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## monomer

Goldndust said:


> Monomer, One thing I have figured out very well is YOU are very much against the e-collar! You, do not use one, nor do I feel you truly understand them...


Again... you are showing that you are not reading carefully enough. Please go back and re-read my postings very carefully.

I have and do use one (last 12-years in fact). What I am against is the "selling" (the use) of this device in open public forums where unseen dog owners can read this "advice" and never ask questions or get any feedback whatsoever and then assume they can properly use one. That is a real danger! whether you can fully understand the consequences of those actions or not! I refuse to "sell" to strangers the use of this item over the Internet on a public forum.... simply because I believe the dangers of mis-use are too great. Evidently you don't as your only concern is one will have to go back and re-train (fix) the damage, that is your choice, however my conscience will not allow me to do likewise as I believe sometimes the damage caused is un-fixable.

However, I will applaud your insertions of caution to seek professional assistance and am pleased you have properly employed the device. You just have far more faith in unseen strangers than I do... its either that or you are being reckless.


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## Goldndust

> My father in law has a lab, who he has used a shock training collar on him. He is kind of a busy body when he gets out of his kennel. He also has had some problems with visiting a neighbor when he is outside and she is in heat. When he has the collar on he stays put.
> What are some opinions about shock collars? We would like to train our dog for hunting and people who hunt with dogs around here said they are the way to go in the field. It isn't like I want to shock her all the time, we are looking at models with a vibrate feature just to get her attention when she is far off. What does everyone thing about it?


Monomer, we all just answered a question that was asked on a board, we were not reckless with our posts at all. The board is open for all to post, unforseen as well as seen. It is an open board to all. 

And thank you for the applaud, that was a nice thing to say. And yes, I have went the distance for this type of training since I knew very little of it to begin with, now I am only the better for being taught it. It isn't the only route, but it is a route if one chooses to take it and hiding it won't stop anyone from going out there and getting one to use, at least with it being open on the board all can read and see just what goes into it from day one, to end. I would also like to mention my Breeder, Swampcollie also helped me tremedously in the "Remote Trainer"! And yes, it was on board also. I was thankful for him, and for talking about it since it helped me to better understand it before I went into it.



> I never thought to ask the question. How many certified trainers do we have on this forum?


As for my trainer, she is the only one certified in NM. I went through an Academy here. She owns a Rotty, Belgian Malinois and just looks like not long ago brought in another one, at my last session she was brought in a cadiver to be trained by her. Walker has been moved out of state with a police dog certifier where he will finish his police dog training. She has worked under the police dogs and her training. Her techniques are of those used for Police working dogs. They train for the reliable command performances that our honored police dogs have....NO, she does not use treats! 
The training has been used in Tracking, Drug Work, Search -n- Rescue and Protection Work, but best of all used for your family pets. 
She holds ten certifications:

Basic Advanced Obedience
Off Leash 
Behavior Modification
Puppy Development
Utility (Confidence Building Techniques)
Tracking
Soft Mouth Retrieval
Scent Detection (Drug Work)
Personal Protection
She is also continuing her education in:
Learning Theories, Behavior, History and Evolution of canines to enhance her training techniques as well. She also has active memberships in three different things, but can't remember them now. 

There is where i'm coming from in my training. Now anyone that has anything to say about that will only be the ones that simply don't hold it. This trainer has went the distance for training, and loves every bit of it. She's also one of the best i've seen out there here! I too have went the distance in my training through her.

I hope this answers your question a bit on my part Kimm, anyways...this is where I am coming from.

I've not heard or seen anyone on board with half of what she's got, or I paid for to get? Remember, your paying for this and you have the right to get the very best out there for your loved dog. I don't believe there is any certifications for remote trainer, for my trainer all that was gotten as a young girl from her dad who trained field dogs. She knows exactly how to use, and prepare dogs for them through that as well as added benefits of all her hard work in going the distance for all those certifications and moving out to schooling for it.

I can assure you all her certifications have not come from a PetSmart. Her's are from out of state at a school. One thing is for sure, the certifications do mean much more then some of you are mentioning. Mine does know her way around hunting, she's certified in soft mouth retrieval, as well as all those others above. She's worked her butt off for those, but she cares and loves dogs enough to have went that distance to get them, compared to some that don't but require payment for a service when they have nothing more then anyone else for taking on such a service.

Maybe I should bring her in since you all are discussing certifications and there value.


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## tintallie

That would be a detriment to the police force if she did use treats Di  Imagine the danger it would put the police in if their K9 partner was lured away by a treat?! :doh:


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## Emma&Tilly

The UK police force has a blanket ban of the use of any shock/pinch/prong collars and are trained with positive, reward based methods...so I guess that means it can be done!


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## FlyingQuizini

Goldndust said:


> As for my trainer, she is the only one certified in NM. I went through an Academy here.
> 
> She holds ten certifications:
> 
> Basic Advanced Obedience
> Off Leash
> Behavior Modification
> Puppy Development
> Utility (Confidence Building Techniques)
> Tracking
> Soft Mouth Retrieval
> Scent Detection (Drug Work)
> Personal Protection
> She is also continuing her education in:
> Learning Theories, Behavior, History and Evolution of canines to enhance her training techniques as well. She also has active memberships in three different things, but can't remember them now.
> 
> I can assure you all her certifications have not come from a PetSmart. Her's are from out of state at a school.


What school?

Basically, any organization can offer instruction and provide a "certificate" upon completion. Unfortunately, however, there is no group that governs the behavior and techniques of dog trainers. It's not like a lawer who must pass the bar exam in order to practice law. 

I'm glad you found a trainer whom you are so comfortable with. My only recommendation to people is to look beyond "certifications" when trying to choose a trainer. Just because someone is "certified" in something doesn't make them good at it -- and just because someone else isn't certified in something doesn't make them bad at it.

The Association of Pet Dog Trainers has a certification process. It's a written test and you must have had 300 hours of hands-on experience in order to qualify to take the test. To me, the test loses some value when you aren't tested on your hands-on skills. Any good test taker can pass a written test. I'm sure I'll take it eventually - the next time the APDT conference comes to town and I have $300 to burn. Other than that, there are individual training organizations that offer their own "certificates" to students who complete the programs.

I personally have certificates from several well-respected trainers who ran seminars on various topics. For example:

John Rogerson, Pia Silvani, Brenda Aloff (Aggression, Basic - Advanced Obedience)
Puppy Classes/Socialization (Pia Silvani)
Assorted topics with Trish King and Donna Duford
Creating Behavior Chains (Karen Pryor)
Classical Conditioning (Kathy Sdao)
Competition Obedience
Agility
Temperament Testing (Emily Weiss, Ph.D.)
Benefits of Positive Training (Steve White)
Concept Learning (Ken Ramirez)
Clicker Training for Aggression (Emma Parsons)

I suppose I could run around saying I'm "certified" in those areas, but I just don't feel that's correct terminology.

I wish there was something like the bar exam for dog trainers! It would go a long way to weed out the not-so-great ones out there!

-Stephanie


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## FlyingQuizini

Emma&Tilly said:


> The UK police force has a blanket ban of the use of any shock/pinch/prong collars and are trained with positive, reward based methods...so I guess that means it can be done!


Hey Emma!

You must be familiar with John Rogerson... LOVE HIM! I've done several seminars with him and he's the one who got me into Working Trials. I did my judging apprenticeship under him.

I like John Fisher's books too - and regret that I never got to work with him in person before he passed away.

-Stephanie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I have a very good friend in Michigan who is APDT Certified. I just wondered how many others on the board are, too.


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## JimS

FlyingQuizini said:


> I like John Fisher's books too - and regret that I never got to work with him in person before he passed away.
> 
> -Stephanie


_Think Dog_ is one of my all time favorite pet books. Unfortunately, Fisher is also indirectly responsible for one of the very worst dog training DVDs I've ever seen. I bought _Dog Training the John Fisher Way _as a result of enjoying his book so much. It was made after his death...so he isn't completely to blame...Just the people who control his name. It's not much more than dogs frolicking on video.


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## Goldndust

National k9, School for dog training.
National K-9 Learning Center | School For Dog Trainers

Active memberships with:
The National K-9 Trainers Association , The Association of Pet Dog Trainers and another one I still need to find. It's on my paperwork, just need to dig it out.

And yes, there are some good trainers out there that are not certified in anything, but if one is out looking to lay down there hard earned money, and put there loved dog in ones hands they should look to someone that has actually put in some hours, put out some money, worked under professional instructors, had hands on work under there instuctions as well as hold some memberships in area's of there training. K9 national is not a simple written test, it requires hours and schooling as compared to some that are just written tests with no hands on work or an hour speaking or video. There are no laws governing dog training, and anyone and there brother can be out there accepting yoru money when they know nothing more then the average person, it's important to look for things when picking out a trainer especially when you don't know them first hand. The boards as i've stated sometime back also hold some good information, and I myself have gained alot of knowledge when I first began on them over four years ago. But this is a bit different then when one is actually out there laying down some good money for one. It's important to know where there education came from, and how. Do they hold active memberships in area's of expertise, are they furthering there education, etc. 

I myself put out 180.00 bucks for this trainer, and let me tell you thats alot of money to put out on just anybody, and I wouldn't have. I wouldn't put my child in a school with untrained teachers, nor would put my dog in someone's hands that will take payment for a service that anyone can say there a dog trainer. The only way I would do that is if I knew the trainer personally, and knew there work as well as seen there dogs and seen them moving them upward by way of titles, I would also want to see there dogs by way of demonstrations, which my trainer also offers among other things. 

I found this also, things to help you look for when out looking for a trainer for your loved dog and laying down some money for it. There are many training methods, and no one fits all. It's important to know where you want to take the dog later because going one way in training could make you have to back track later, so if you know you want to move in a certain area, make sure your beginning stages of training will fit it later. Since I knew where I wanted to go later, I had to make sure my training that I had recieved from this trainer wasn't going to cause me problems later, it all just follows through and more steps are added. Training will not effect where I want to go.
National K-9® | Dog Trainers Association | Selecting A Trainerhttp://www.nk9dta.com/


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## AquaClaraCanines

Oh I do think some certification can mean a lot, some means little... I wouldn't pay anyone to train my dog- I haven't found anything yet I want to do with a dog I can't do myself. I guess that's the perspective I am looking at this from. The only thing I might want to do where I'd need help is if I decided to do field training beyond a very basic level.


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## greg bell

I am not sure what kind of training you are talking about. But it would stand to reason that with most types of training, you would look for trainers that had success in competition in whatever area you are considering. I am in field work and know who the successful trainers are in that area. Same would be true in obedience, agility, etc... 
I would look for trainers with a successful track record in that particular venue. Then you look for trainers that have dogs that are happy willing workers. Dogs that love their work. 
The proof is in the results... not in certificates..


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## Goldndust

I agree ACC, I am referring to when one is laying down hard earned money, and the safety of there dogs and putting them into some elses hands when training. I think when you do this, you do have to be very very careful, and that is why I have brought in all of this information. I myself have trained all my own dogs, Kody was my high prey drive dog and I had some issues with him I just couldn't get a handle on, this is where I needed the help. In a area of no distractions and birds and water, he was the A-1 student, but you start adding some of those high prey drive distractions and I couldn't over come them by myself. Turns out, it was my timing that was off as well as my voice, I have a soft voice and my trainer told me I wasn't telling him, I was asking him, he's a fast little bugger and even at a short lead he was faster then me and was moving out in front and i'd lost him. Kody needs strong leadership, I wasn't quite used to that since Bianka and Telly were a bit different, my voice was fine with them in training, but not in Kode, he picks up on everything, even little things since he's a very very smart dog! 

I knew I needed help, so I got it. Anyone can be out there training dogs, it doesn't mean they know anymore then you or I do. The certifications and as well as everything else I listed will help those out looking for this person. It will give them the backing and show them who these ones are, and how far they took this and just how much interest there really is in there work, compared to just money.

Gregg, if one knows this trainer that can give those results, those titles in an organization such as you are are there certificates. You are absalutely correct! 

But, at the same time just because someone is in that area doesn't make them a good dog trainer, i'm sure you seen this yourself. I think the key in your case is too know this person as I've stated above, and know there work. I think the "Dog Clubs" are a perfect place to begin to look if one is heading in that direction, but I still wouldn't just let anyone of them have my dog. We have one up here that trains just for this, but I wouldn't let him have my dog. We don't have any Dog Clubs here where I am, so that route simply wasn't available to me. But the results, as well as those titles do show one something to look at as you say and the certificates along don't make a good dog trainer, there is more to that as i've stated above.

I think when you look at dog clubs, there results are there certificates since they are getting them by way of titles and moving upward, as well as furthering there education by the dog club.

Obedience and Agility, well if they show one the information needed, the titles and the work as well as everything else included that proves they know what there doing, and can get there dog there as well as being honest and saying the dog will have a good chance, or it won't particuliarly if this person wants this dog to go upward, then I feel as I do with the dog clubs. If a dog is just in this for fun, then I don't feel it matters, but do feel they need to be under a good OB instructor in the beginning because everything begins with good OB.

Also, as i've said. Boards are an excellent place to go for help, but when you lay down money you want to make sure this person can deliver. I know my breeder who is Swampcollie participates in a dog club, his help that I recieved going way back years ago with my first golden was perfect, he really knows and understands the dogs as you do and others on the boards do that do there best to help those in need. Boards can be one of the best places to gain knowledge about everything, not just training. Many of us have dealt with the same things in the past that some are dealing with now and hopefully were all able to help them. But if they need hands on....well....do we need to go again. lol


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## JimS

The way I look at training, no one trains my dogs but me. I do however pay people to teach me to train my dog properly and critique how I'm doing. When I'm looking for these people to train me, I look for people who have been successful at whatever venue it is that we're participating in. 

It would be nice to find an obedience instructor who also knew her way around hunting. I actually know a couple of them who fit the bill, but they're too far away. All hunting pros have a bit of obedience under their belts...but it's a far cry from ring obedience. It's rare to find an instuctor who competes at the top levels of each.


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## JimS

I had mentioned a few posts back that I could find a large number of respected people who advocate e-collar training. I just stumbled across a white paper doing just that. It comes from an e-collar manufacturer, so take it with a grain of salt...but the bibliography includes a few very interesting people and organizations. In particular, I was surprised to see the Vice President of Research and Education Outreach (what a title...his business cards must unfold like a map) of the HSUS quoted. Another interesting one (although not surprising) is my Lab, Kali's breeder, Phyllis Giroux DVM. Phyllis really knows her way around dogs, she's shown in conformation at Westminster, competed in all levels of retriever trialing and testing, is a noted authority on canine reproduction and sports medicine...and in one sentence made me a far better dog trainer than I was six years ago. She told me that I had taught Kali everything she needed to know, I just hadn't taught her that she needed to do it when I told her to.

http://petsafeoutreach.com/white_paper.pdf

Here's an education site...also owned by an e-collar manufacturer:
Train My Pet 
I just love the fact that they refer to e-collar/shock collar training as "Static Stimulation Training"!


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## Tony T

At sometime or another, every dog owner needs to set up some sort of dog training for their pet even the most basic kind is essential. Shock collar training and e collar training can be the best way to train dogs.


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## Ljilly28

There was an interesting article in this new Golden Retriever news that tangentially mentioned how some of the best English golden breeders prefer not to sell field dogs to the usa because of shock collar training and the notion that USA training is a little barbaric. . .


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## sterregold

Yup and it is unfortunate as it limits some us from using some excellent lines. But there is unfortuantely an impression that the collars are barbaric formed by many who have never used one nor seen one used properly. I have a friend now overseas who initially was upset when she heard that I use one, but after I pulled it out, stuck it on my arm and pushed the button and then let her do the same she had to concur it wasn't that bad! Far kinder than some of the methods used in advanced levels of field training before the e-collar as far as I'm concerned. No collar does not mean no force, and that is true of both sides of the pond!


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## kvar

My wife was initially very much against the use of an e-collar on our golden Layla. I made sure to try it on myself before I put it on Layla and it basically feels like you drag your feet across the carpet and shock someone, more of an unexpected thing than pain. We used our e-collar initially to teach Layla the yard boundaries instead of installing an in ground electric fence and I also plan on doing a little bit of hunting. Our model has a tone mode also and it only took Layla 2-3 times of being shocked to associate the beep with what happens next. Layla now reacts right away to the beep and my wife even loves how the e-collar has helped train her.


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## Swampcollie

kvar said:


> My wife was initially very much against the use of an e-collar on our golden Layla. I made sure to try it on myself before I put it on Layla and it basically feels like you drag your feet across the carpet and shock someone, more of an unexpected thing than pain. We used our e-collar initially to teach Layla the yard boundaries instead of installing an in ground electric fence and I also plan on doing a little bit of hunting. Our model has a tone mode also and it only took Layla 2-3 times of being shocked to associate the beep with what happens next. Layla now reacts right away to the beep and my wife even loves how the e-collar has helped train her.


Be careful, you're dispelling the myths and fears of those who have never used an E-collar. Heaven forbid that somebody may rise from their ignorance and find a tool that helps them to communicate effectively and control their dog.


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## fostermom

Swampcollie said:


> Be careful, you're dispelling the myths and fears of those who have never used an E-collar. Heaven forbid that somebody may rise from their ignorance and find a tool that helps them to communicate effectively and control their dog.


Pretty uncalled for in my opinion. Just because we don't agree with your thoughts doesn't make us ignorant. I haven't noticed anyone calling you ignorant in this thread for using an E Collar, have they? I'm not sure why you feel the need to call other people ignorant because they don't want to use them on their dogs.


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## EvanG

Swampcollie said:


> Be careful, you're dispelling the myths and fears of those who have never used an E-collar. Heaven forbid that somebody may rise from their ignorance and find a tool that helps them to communicate effectively and control their dog.


Who knows? You may end up with an actual Golden "Retriever" like *THIS*!

EvanG


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