# Who wants to talk about some contrary marks?



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

well since there was a discussion about contrary marks on the July training thread figured why not start thread just for talking about contrary marks.

i pulled the best picture i could off my phone so we could look at it and come up with some contrary marks. Again these are marks you would not want to throw very often in training, might see them at a test or trial. 

also we are only looking at single marks. draw what you think would be one contrary mark and explain why you think it is contrary. 










contrary water mark. contrary because it is thrown away from water. and this is personal opinion but dog does not really have a chance to back side the gun.


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

krazybronco2 said:


> well since there was a discussion about contrary marks on the July training thread figured why not start thread just for talking about contrary marks.
> 
> i pulled the best picture i could off my phone so we could look at it and come up with some contrary marks. Again these are marks you would not want to throw very often in training, might see them at a test or trial.
> 
> ...


I guess I don't get it. Contrary to what? 
When I hunt upland I can't dictate where the bird 
will fall. Its a mark, go pick it up.

But when I'm training, I throw marks where I think the judges would throw a bird at a test. This of course is after pile work, cheating singles and all fundamentals are taught. I've seen plenty of marks thrown away from water at the master level. Seen them thrown on the bank too. Rarely in water though, except for the go bird.

Duck hunting a pond or slough your picking up birds mostly in water.

Real hunting and tests are contrary.
I do well at both even though they are contrary to each other.


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Not a contrary mark but I would love to run a blind angling over the first peninsula and then putting them on and off the tip of the second. 
I'm all kinds of help. 
Off to train, looking forward to checking this thread later.


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Poppy2 said:


> I guess I don't get it. Contrary to what?
> When I hunt upland I can't dictate where the bird
> will fall. Its a mark, go pick it up.
> 
> ...


contrary to normal training. avoiding water, throwing a bird so that a dog can beach early and be rewarded with a bird. in water you are looking for 3 things see water get in water, get on and off a point, and swim to the end of the pond. 

in the mark i posted is encouraging bank running and the dog is not going out of its way to do so. if you thew the bird the opposite way (right to left) then the line to that mark is through water and for the dog to run the bank it has to go out of its way. 

and training most people i know dont throw birds to where they think a judge will throw a bird but they are teaching how to fight the factors sometimes just one factor then other times multiple factors. if you throw a bird where you think a judge would put a bird more times then not you will be wrong because the judge is thinking something else when they set up a test.


sorry if i didnt explain this in the best way maybe someone else can explain it better.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Excuse my ignorance in this but if the line is at the hale bale then the straight line to the fall would be thru the water, mind you small water but the dog would still have to get in the water to the bird. This would be an opportunity to teach the dog not to cheat the bank but get into the water. 

To me, a novice at this sport, a straight line is the indicative of a good marking dog. Regardless of where the bird falls the dog takes a straight line thru brush, water, trees and heavy cover to that bird.


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

So were talking about teaching then?
Then I totally agree with what your saying.

To the veteran dog I would like mixing things up a bit so i don't have a robot, but a dog that can mark accurately and not wander around think, "well the bird is suppose to be right here.

I guess balance is key.


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

does this help you see what im talking about claudia? there is is no black and white picture for the dog to make a wrong decision.


----------



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I think this is a 'contrary' mark because is sets the dog up to fail! In training marks should be set up to help the dog to be successful. That does not mean we do not run marks down shorelines where we can 'teach' dogs to run the water not the shore. But this 'mark' is really set up for failure, although I know some 'evil' judges that would run this on MH tests.....


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> To me, a novice at this sport, a straight line is the indicative of a good marking dog. Regardless of where the bird falls the dog takes a straight line thru brush, water, trees and heavy cover to that bird.


not always true i have seen many times in a hunt test, some one line a dog to a bird that the dog either forgot or never saw. in the few open stake FTs i have seen they make it very very hard for a dog to line a mark. 

heck i did it this spring at a finished test on an out of order mama papa, the order was mama, wide swing to the right for second bird then the papa as the go bird. belle never saw the go bird picked up both outside marks never indicating she knew where the middle bird was. got her calmed down took a big step backwards then a big step up to get her lined up got her locked in on the line i wanted (like you would do with a blind) and she put her face on the bird needless to say it wasnt but a 50yard mark with very little cover, i knew she didnt mark the bird and pretty sure the judges knew she didnt mark it but hard for them to justify that she didnt mark the bird when she didnt handle on the mark and she brought the bird back.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> does this help you see what im talking about claudia? there is is no black and white picture for the dog to make a wrong decision.


Yup, if the line is there, yes then no dog would get in the water but instead will teach the dog that it is OK to run the bank; which would make it a contrary mark. Amazing how couple feet at the line can make it or break it. 

ETA - at least with this I am learning more on how to edit pictures.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> not always true i have seen many times in a hunt test, some one line a dog to a bird that the dog either forgot or never saw. in the few open stake FTs i have seen they make it very very hard for a dog to line a mark.
> 
> heck i did it this spring at a finished test on an out of order mama papa, the order was mama, wide swing to the right for second bird then the papa as the go bird. belle never saw the go bird picked up both outside marks never indicating she knew where the middle bird was. got her calmed down took a big step backwards then a big step up to get her lined up got her locked in on the line i wanted (like you would do with a blind) and she put her face on the bird needless to say it wasnt but a 50yard mark with very little cover, i knew she didnt mark the bird and pretty sure the judges knew she didnt mark it but hard for them to justify that she didnt mark the bird when she didnt handle on the mark and she brought the bird back.



From the little I have seen you are correct, there are many obstacles and fators put in the front of the dog. I was training with some FT people who used every possible obstacle the terrain allowed. On mark three there was a downed tree in front of the mark. It has forced most dogs to go around it. My golden was the only one that went thru it. My flat coat also went around and completely missed the bird. Couple other labs missed it as well.

Sorry this is deviating from the original intent of this thread.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Tons to talk about on this!

To me, a contrary mark (or it could be a contrary blind) is something that is different from the way a dog is normally trained; it is where a dog which is perceived to give in to a factor ends up at the bird.
The original mark is contrary for more than one reason ... the dog gets the bird not only by avoiding the water but also, relatedly, because it doesn't swim past the gunner to get to the bird (i.e., it would still be contrary if the gunner moved 30 yards to the left but still threw the bird to the right). 
I would not train a dog on this set up even though it may come up in a field trial (it could be a pretty tough mark if the gunner retired and it is a memory bird and the wind is blowing from left to right ... some dogs are so watery that they'd get in the water and miss the bird/scent cone, ... of course, in a trial I would be pushing my dog way to the right to take advantage of the wind).
As to the comment about "lining" marks; while the line is sometimes judged, it shouldn't be ... a mark is not about lines; however, this gets really tough to judge when it appears as though the dog avoids "rough going," which, under the rules, is supposed to be considered.
As for a "contrary blind," these have fairly recently become more common in all-age stakes, particularly where the dogs have to run a long way BESIDE a body of water before getting in. I don't mind it too much in Opens or Ams, but I HATE to see this in a Qualifying stake. Last year in a Qual, the judges set up a land blind which ran parallel to a large pond a mere 20 yards to the side ... the dogs (not just mine) looked like crap because they thought that they were being set up for a correction on that land blind ... it was the worst Qual blind that I've ever seen, much less tried to run.
FTGoldens


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

goldlover68 said:


> I think this is a 'contrary' mark because is sets the dog up to fail! In training marks should be set up to help the dog to be successful. That does not mean we do not run marks down shorelines where we can 'teach' dogs to run the water not the shore. But this 'mark' is really set up for failure, although I know some 'evil' judges that would run this on MH tests.....


We must know the same people.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ahh the poster child for contrary marks. Running a young dog from the bale to pick up this mark.


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Swampcollie said:


> Ahh the poster child for contrary marks. Running a young dog from the bale to pick up this mark.


can you please explain why this is a contrary mark?

my guess would be becuase there is a large amount of water behind the point.


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> Yup, if the line is there, yes then no dog would get in the water but instead will teach the dog that it is OK to run the bank; which would make it a contrary mark. Amazing how couple feet at the line can make it or break it.
> 
> ETA - at least with this I am learning more on how to edit pictures.


take the pic you edited and read what FT golden posted. just because the line moved a couple of feet doesnt mean it still isnt contrary. also after a dog can handle you dont want to throw very many marks that square to a factor. think about why you dont want to throw marks that are square to factors very often.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Tons to talk about on this!
> 
> To me, a contrary mark (or it could be a contrary blind) is something that is different from the way a dog is normally trained; it is where a dog which is perceived to give in to a factor ends up at the bird.
> The original mark is contrary for more than one reason ... the dog gets the bird not only by avoiding the water but also, relatedly, because it doesn't swim past the gunner to get to the bird (i.e., it would still be contrary if the gunner moved 30 yards to the left but still threw the bird to the right).
> ...


Bolded statement - true except if the dog goes around in order to avoid brush, trees, obstacle they can in my poor simple mind
1. miss the mark; 
2. not be advanced in a FT if there were plenty of dogs that did not take a "round trip". 

In the pic I posted on the first mark you have the horse obstacle. There was no requirement per se for the dogs to jump over, they could go around it and still pick up the bird but if out of 30 dogs 10 jumped over more than likely those 10 will have a better chance of placing. 

This is a great learning thread!


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> Bolded statement - true except if the dog goes around in order to avoid brush, trees, obstacle they can in my poor simple mind
> 1. miss the mark;
> 2. not be advanced in a FT if there were plenty of dogs that did not take a "round trip".
> 
> ...


not that one the water mark you edited


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Bolded statement - true except if the dog goes around in order to avoid brush, trees, obstacle they can in my poor simple mind
> 1. miss the mark;
> 2. not be advanced in a FT if there were plenty of dogs that did not take a "round trip".
> 
> ...


Point #1 is true, if they miss the mark they get penalized _for missing the mark_ but not for going around a bush, etc. Looking at your horse jump example, in a field trial the dogs that circumnavigated the horse jump but went to the bird would be judged no more harshly that the dogs that jumped the horse jump. (On a blind, there would be a different answer.)
This is where you can see a difference in the talent of judges...really good judges can put a mark in a place that will cause dogs that avoid a factor ending up in no-man's-land and altogether miss the mark.
FTGoldens


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

FTGoldens said:


> Point #1 is true, if they miss the mark they get penalized _for missing the mark_ but not for going around a bush, etc. Looking at your horse jump example, in a field trial the dogs that circumnavigated the horse jump but went to the bird would be judged no more harshly that the dogs that jumped the horse jump. (On a blind, there would be a different answer.)
> This is where you can see a difference in the talent of judges...really good judges can put a mark in a place that will cause dogs that avoid a factor ending up in no-man's-land and altogether miss the mark.
> FTGoldens


yes saw that in the 4th (water marks) at a Q. angle entry and exit and drive across a road at an angle. the dogs only had 15yards of water to swim.the dogs that didnt square anything picked the bird up clean the dogs that squared either the entry or the exit ended up behind the gun or in no mans land and hunted for a few seconds before making their way to the bird.

the mark im talking about is G3 in the pic.


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

FTGoldens said:


> Claudia M said:
> 
> 
> > Bolded statement - true except if the dog goes around in order to avoid brush, trees, obstacle they can in my poor simple mind
> ...


With this being said, I have to ask about your contrary blind example. Did the dog that ran down the shore and not get wet win or place?

If so, i'm betting he new that judge and how he liked setting up.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

You look at these photos and realize how incredibly smart our dogs are aren't they? I am continually amazed at how they remember on a triple or quad where all the birds landed and pick them all up. And at incredible distances. Makes me wonder what FTs of the future will look like. I mean how much harder can they get? Sorry a little off topic.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> can you please explain why this is a contrary mark?
> 
> my guess would be becuase there is a large amount of water behind the point.


I am going to take a try at this - lol quote and mark it with an F for Fail on my answer. 

Swam said young dog. A young dog would run from the bale to the peninsula, pick up the bird and come back instead of going thru the water.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Poppy2 said:


> With this being said, I have to ask about your contrary blind example. Did the dog that ran down the shore and not get wet win or place?
> 
> If so, i'm betting he new that judge and how he liked setting up.


LOL!
I have no idea. I must admit that I was so wound up about that blind that I didn't hang around the stake any longer than it took me to get back to my truck, load up my dog, jump in my truck, start the engine and leave. [And I don't generally get upset over stuff like that, I really don't ... but that blind was awful.]
FTGoldens


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> You look at these photos and realize how incredibly smart our dogs are aren't they? I am continually amazed at how they remember on a triple or quad where all the birds landed and pick them all up. And at incredible distances. Makes me wonder what FTs of the future will look like. I mean how much harder can they get? Sorry a little off topic.


It's truly amazing what these animals can do. And the ones which are truly, truly special can take your breath away when you watch them work.
I really don't know what the limits are ... certainly there is a point beyond which they simply cannot see a bird in the air come down and hit the ground, but even when marks are at such great distances the dogs can see the movement of the arm (at least in field trials) and get a pretty good idea where the bird is going to fall ... and drill the mark.
They are special and I feel blessed to have them in my life.
FTGoldens


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

FTGoldens said:


> Poppy2 said:
> 
> 
> > With this being said, I have to ask about your contrary blind example. Did the dog that ran down the shore and not get wet win or place?
> ...


Why get upset?
Is it because it didn't follow the SOOO called normal training protocol?


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

How about this scenario? Added a pic without my "design" on it.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Poppy2 said:


> Why get upset?
> Is it because it didn't follow the SOOO called normal training protocol?


Probably! 

For a Derby or a Qual, most judges will not set up a test which will "untrain" a dog. It's different for Open and Am dogs, so long as each dog is faced with substantially the same test.
FTGoldens


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Tons to talk about on this!
> 
> To me, a contrary mark (or it could be a contrary blind) is something that is different from the way a dog is normally trained; it is where a dog which is perceived to give in to a factor ends up at the bird.
> The original mark is contrary for more than one reason ... the dog gets the bird not only by avoiding the water but also, relatedly, *because it doesn't swim past the gunner to get to the bird (i.e., it would still be contrary if the gunner moved 30 yards to the left but still threw the bird to the right).*
> ...



What about in this scenario?


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

krazybronco2 said:


> can you please explain why this is a contrary mark?
> 
> my guess would be becuase there is a large amount of water behind the point.



BC dog can very very easily cheat, run straight down the point, never get wet and get the bird.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

OK here are three examples

Left Gun on near shore : Throwing toward water, not getting into water

Right Gun deep of water: Holding blind even with shore, throwing away from water. Run past water don't get wet

And a blind! Contrary in two ways
Blind set at foot of bubba gunner (yes -- saw this in an Open and it BLEW THEIR MINDS)
Blind requires the dog to run past two different coves of water and never get in. Move it to the left a bit and they need to get wet 3 times or move it right a bit and take away the proximity of those two coves


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

K9-Design said:


> BC dog can very very easily cheat, run straight down the point, never get wet and get the bird.


i don't think that would qualify a mark as a contrary mark, *it might* but if you have a young dog that can handle and has been through some cheating singles then you have the tools to correct the cheat. i would never throw that cheaty of a mark for a puppy.

pretty sure that mark is teaching a dog to get in a little bit of water but to stop on the first piece of land you come to and not get back in the water. again could be wrong just what I'm seeing with that mark


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> What about in this scenario?












some one please correct me but still think this is contrary yes the have to "swim" past the gun but your still throwing away from water. basically if the dog caves into the right hand shore line on that mark they can still be rewarded with the bird or that is the way i see it i could be wrong.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> some one please correct me but still think this is contrary yes the have to "swim" past the gun but your still throwing away from water. basically if the dog caves into the right hand shore line on that mark they can still be rewarded with the bird or that is the way i see it i could be wrong.


But if the dog caves wouldn't that again be a opportunity to work on de-cheating?


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> But if the dog caves wouldn't that again be a opportunity to work on de-cheating?


yes you could but very few people that i have trained with will correct a dog for being a little fat on a mark. on that mark the dog has to make a very hard turn (45 degrees or more) to the right for you to be able to correct the dog in my opinion. that is because the dog made a deliberate (decision) move to beach early. and you can go back again to what FT golden said earlier. wind blowing left to right and you have a watery dog that is just under the arc will most likely have a hunt where the dog that fades and beaches early will end up winding the bird. so my question is on that mark you drew with the conditions i gave which dog marked the bird better the one that beach early and was 20yards wide right of the bird and then went and put its face on the bird of the dog that was 5 ft left of the bird and put on a hunt then came up with the bird?


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Here is a MH series I ran earlier this year that may have more subtle contrary mark if I'm getting the gist of this thread.

The blue lines on the picture represent flooded grass. 
First mark down was the walk-up, you then swung left to flier and then came back to middle bird. This series saw a lot of breaking on the first bird down or the flier. Many dogs picked up the walkup bird first as it was practically in line to last bird down. 
But what I think was the contrary mark in this case was the flier. The line to the flier was all on land but many dogs backsided the winger then came around and picked up the bird. My dog did this and I saw quite a few really solid experienced (NMH/Grand/FT) dogs do the same thing. I could not figure it out so I asked my trainer who was also running the test what was going on. This is my take on what he told me. The judges were using the knowledge that we train our dogs to seek water. The line to the flier was just off that flooded grass so dogs adjusted their line to be in the water. This line adjustment put them on the backside of the winger. Once they backsided that winger the old 3rd mark and/or the blind could pull them right (no the blind was not hot but after a few dogs there was scent). An inexperienced dog could get lost and then you were forced to use your handle in the 1st series. Evil Judges!!!!


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

hollyk said:


> Here is a MH series I ran earlier this year that may have more subtle contrary mark if I'm getting the gist of this thread.
> 
> The blue lines on the picture represent flooded grass.
> First mark down was the walk-up, you then swung left to flier and then came back to middle bird. This series saw a lot of breaking on the first bird down or the flier. Many dogs picked up the walkup bird first as it was practically in line to last bird down.
> But what I think was the contrary mark in this case was the flier. The line to the flier was all on land but many dogs backsided the winger then came around and picked up the bird. My dog did this and I saw quite a few really solid experienced (NMH/Grand/FT) dogs do the same thing. I could not figure it out so I asked my trainer who was also running the test what was going on. This is my take on what he told me. The judges were using the knowledge that we train our dogs to seek water. The line to the flier was just off that flooded grass so dogs adjusted their line to be in the water. This line adjustment put them on the backside of the winger. Once they backsided that winger the old 3rd mark and/or the blind could pull them right (no the blind was not hot but after a few dogs there was scent). An inexperienced dog could get lost and then you were forced to use your handle in the 1st series. Evil Judges!!!!


i would consider the flier mark as contrary and almost a trick but it was also a flier and we all know how much dogs love fliers. it could have been worse they thrown the flier as the go bird and a dead duck as the contrary mark. bet you would have had a lot more handles. expecially if the wind was blowing right to left from the line and blowing the flier feathers toward the contrary mark.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

One thing that I should mention is that a mark which seems to be a contrary to one trainer may not be contrary to another trainer ... one of my training partners (roughly 15 years of experience training retrievers for tests and trials) and I (a "bit" more than 15 years) occasionally disagree on what is a contrary mark. [But he and I can disagree on the color of the sky at times.]
So, it's okay to agree to disagree on this stuff.
FTGoldens


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> But if the dog caves wouldn't that again be a opportunity to work on de-cheating?


It could be, but I would not do it that way ... to work on de-cheating on that mark, I'd have it land in the same spot, but have it thrown from right to left. (Plus give the pup a bit more water to get in.)

FTGoldens


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

krazybronco2 said:


> i would consider the flier mark as contrary and almost a trick but it was also a flier and we all know how much dogs love fliers. it could have been worse they thrown the flier as the go bird and a dead duck as the contrary mark. bet you would have had a lot more handles. expecially if the wind was blowing right to left from the line and blowing the flier feathers toward the contrary mark.


Ha! If that was the case I would have had to call them " Mean Evil Judges". 
In the 3rd series of this test the Judges laid down 3 marks, the last a flier, then had you no for everything and run a blind, maybe they were "Mean Evil Judges".


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> It could be, but I would not do it that way ... to work on de-cheating on that mark, I'd have it land in the same spot, but have it thrown from right to left. (Plus give the pup a bit more water to get in.)
> 
> FTGoldens


Interesting, but would you still call it de-cheating since the dog would have to grossly run behind the gunner on land? With a pup I can see that but even with an older dog? 

I am asking this because I am still waiting for Rose to cheat. And in the scenario you posted I am 99.9% confident she would not try to cheat that mark. LOL I have been told it will be a matter of time.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Interesting, but would you still call it de-cheating since the dog would have to grossly run behind the gunner on land? With a pup I can see that but even with an older dog?
> 
> I am asking this because I am still waiting for Rose to cheat. And in the scenario you posted I am 99.9% confident she would not try to cheat that mark. LOL I have been told it will be a matter of time.


Maybe. It depends.
Whether or not the dog must "grossly" run behind the gunner in order to cheat really depends on where you position the line, the gunner and the mark...and it will make a difference whether the bird is thrown flat or angle back. 
If you wanted to set the dog up to cheat in order to get in a correction (and sometimes you have to set them up to get a correction), even if the mark is thrown from right to left, you could back away from the water however far you want, move the mark farther from the shoreline, make it a flat throw and have it land so that there's only a few feet of water to get in. The confluence of factors WILL get a cheat.
FTGoldens


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

FTGoldens said:


> Poppy2;5823866)Why get upset?
> Is t didn't follow the SOOO called normal training protocol?[/quote said:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Poppy2 said:


> Sorry-
> But this is a blind.
> How was this "untraining" a dog?
> Dog takes que's from you now, your driven.
> ...


Happy training indeed!

There are as many different ways to train as there are trainers. That's part of the challenge and intrigue to the sport. The GRF discussion about FF was indicative of that. Before Rex Carr revolutionized retriever training, there was even more divergence in training than there is now. What the heck, just maybe you are onto something and will have the winner of the 2015 National Retriever Championship...if you have a Golden, I really, really hope that you win it.

FTGoldens


----------



## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Yawn......


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Poppy2 said:


> Yawn......


are you saying you don't want the next NFC?


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Maybe. It depends.
> Whether or not the dog must "grossly" run behind the gunner in order to cheat really depends on where you position the line, the gunner and the mark...and it will make a difference whether the bird is thrown flat or angle back.
> If you wanted to set the dog up to cheat in order to get in a correction (and sometimes you have to set them up to get a correction), even if the mark is thrown from right to left, you could back away from the water however far you want, move the mark farther from the shoreline, make it a flat throw and have it land so that there's only a few feet of water to get in. The confluence of factors WILL get a cheat.
> FTGoldens


I say "grossly" because of Rose; she is not as fast as Belle or Darcy but she is an amazing marker. When she marks her focus is on that mark all the way to it. Thru whatever you put in front of her (even though she is not very fond of water). She had me sweating at the last JH test when there was a tree limb in the water couple feet from the shore placed there by the judges. If it was on land she would have gone thru it or over it; she could not go thru it in the water and since water is not really her element she did not know how to jump over it. FINALLY figured out that she can go around it. 

Here is a mark I figured she would be cheating on.


----------



## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> I say "grossly" because of Rose; she is not as fast as Belle or Darcy but she is an amazing marker. When she marks her focus is on that mark all the way to it. Thru whatever you put in front of her (even though she is not very fond of water). She had me sweating at the last JH test when there was a tree limb in the water couple feet from the shore placed there by the judges. If it was on land she would have gone thru it or over it; she could not go thru it in the water and since water is not really her element she did not know how to jump over it. FINALLY figured out that she can go around it.
> 
> Here is a mark I figured she would be cheating on.


well did she cheat? if not turn around and move 50 yards father from the waters edge. sometimes you have to set the dog up to fail to teach the dog something. that is where a lot of HT pro get in trouble they never step out of their element and they get to the grand or the national masters and crap gets real really quickly. push your dog if you plan on running the finished or master run Q setups if you plan on running a Q throw some Am/open setups. (not always easy to do the later if your train alone).


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> well did she cheat? if not turn around and move 50 yards father from the waters edge. sometimes you have to set the dog up to fail to teach the dog something. that is where a lot of HT pro get in trouble they never step out of their element and they get to the grand or the national masters and crap gets real really quickly. push your dog *if you plan on running the finished or master run Q setups if you plan on running a Q throw some Am/open setups.* (not always easy to do the later if your train alone).


That is great advice. Always train at a higher level than what entered. Depending on time and dogs in the group we try to start with FT setups and then move to HT setups.


----------

