# Need advice on two breeders



## LusaGA (Jan 1, 2013)

I found two breeders that I would appreciate input on. Aussie Goldens and willow Creek. Thanks so much. 


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Georgia is too far away from Maine for me to be much help. I think you could with network well established breeders and get the scoop. Look for hip, elbow, heart, and eye clearances for each parent on www.offa.org. 


Margie Sarkin and Kathy Smith will know all the breeders in the area well. I would feel confident getting a puppy myself from either, but I have never heard of the two listed.

Goodtime Goldens
Kathy Smith
Atlanta, GA USA 30328 
[email protected]
Goodtimegoldens.com 
404-256-4451




Goldruls Golden Retrievers
Margie Sarkin
Eatonton, GA USA 31024 
[email protected]
Golden Retriever Puppies GA 
(706) 485-3127


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I was just checking the Goodtime Goldens and I do not see the cardiac exam on the upcoming litter dam De la Vega. The eye also was last done in Mar 2011 and there is not ichtyosis clearance. Also I do not see it on the stud.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

A few years ago, Goodtime bred their then 12 mo. old stud to an 11 mo old bitch. Depending on your feelings about that, it could be an option. The breeder is a former Westminster BOS winner. 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> I was just checking the Goodtime Goldens and I do not see the cardiac exam on the upcoming litter dam De la Vega. The eye also was last done in Mar 2011 and there is not ichtyosis clearance. Also I do not see it on the stud.


That is where you would request clearances in person.

Ichythosis (sp?) is not a required clearance.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> I was just checking the Goodtime Goldens and I do not see the cardiac exam on the upcoming litter dam De la Vega. The eye also was last done in Mar 2011 and there is not ichtyosis clearance. Also I do not see it on the stud.


The ichtycosis DNA tests as well as the PRA and PRCD are not required testing. 

We can't just add things as we go along. The recommended tests right now are hips, eyes, hearts and elbows.

As I stated in another thread, there have been issues with information disappearing from the OFA database, particularly with eyes. They are in the process of changing things in the database because the opthos are now mostly using OFA forms and recommending OFA for recording eye results instead of CERF.

You should ask the breeder if the dam has a heart clearance and if the eye clearances are current.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I agree, the ichtycosis test isn't required, but nice to have. There are carriers on Bella's dam's side. Since Bella's sire tested clear, I know she can never be affected. Good peace of mind.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I am aware that it is not required but it sure is a piece of mind. I was checking a website for our future pup and all three of the studs were carriers. I haven't gotten to the dams yet. 
LOL Megora - I never know if I spelled the darn thing correctly. 
Good catch Nairb. I did not see that - I was only looking at the upcoming litter parents. It seems they are using the stud semen and the eye certif was done approx 2 years prior to him passing. No cardio though on either of the two even though it shows on the parents. Could be a glitch as HVgoldens said.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Does Aussie Goldens have a website? Or do you have the registered names or numbers of the litter's parents? Can you post website links? I found one Willow Creek goldens but they are in San Diego


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

same here Millie's mom - could not find anything on the two breeders.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> I am aware that it is not required but it sure is a piece of mind. I was checking a website for our future pup and all three of the studs were carriers. I haven't gotten to the dams yet.
> LOL Megora - I never know if I spelled the darn thing correctly.
> Good catch Nairb. I did not see that - I was only looking at the upcoming litter parents. It seems they are using the stud semen and the eye certif was done approx 2 years prior to him passing. No cardio though on either of the two even though it shows on the parents. Could be a glitch as HVgoldens said.


If the dam of the litter you're referring to tests clear, the puppies may be carriers, but never affected. 

I've never understood why so many would be opposed to this test. Probably afraid of they might find?

I give much credit to breeders like Hotel4Dogs for taking the responsible path on this. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Forum member, Jtpllc has a dog sired by a Goodtimes dog. I'm not sure if the dam is from there or not. 

He has a recent thread up. Maybe you can get his input.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/143554-help.html


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

If I remember correctly the dam was from the same breeder. But the dog was gotten from some handler not the breeder directly.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Nairb said:


> A few years ago, Goodtime bred their then 12 mo. old stud to an 11 mo old bitch. Depending on your feelings about that, it could be an option. The breeder is a former Westminster BOS winner.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
If this is a breeding I am thinking about, this was an accidental breeding.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I will also recommend Windjammer Goldens


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

kfayard said:


> If this is a breeding I am thinking about, this was an accidental breeding.


Could be. I wondered about that, because it was the only one I could find. They are from two different kennels though. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I know, as hvgoldens mentioned, the OFA website is having some known issues right now. Dogs that used to be in there are not having eye clearances show up, or only the current one is showing up and not previous submissions. I have heard of dogs recently disappearing from the system all together.... a little scary and certainly not helpful for those trying to verify clearances! But I have heard they are working on it. In this circumstance, while it is definitely in the COE to submit eyes and hearts, at this time I would definitely give a little more leeway to a breeder and ask if the eye clearance if it appears to be missing but everything else is in order. 

FWIW, I have an eye clearance sitting on my dresser for Jack that I had done in October. Granted I was out of the country for a month, but I just keep forgetting to send it in. No excuses, but it happens. In fact, I will do it today now that I'm thinking about it! 

re:ichythiosis clearances, I agree, nice to have but not something that is required by the COE so I certainly wouldn't pass judgment on a breeder for not having it done. Same with thyroid, patellas, etc. It's not fair to randomly impose testing requirements just because some are doing it. One can certainly decide they would not buy a puppy from a litter without ______[insert non COE required clearance here] but that wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, personally.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nairb said:


> Forum member, Jtpllc has a dog sired by a Goodtimes dog. I'm not sure if the dam is from there or not.
> 
> He has a recent thread up. Maybe you can get his input.
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/143554-help.html


I think the sire came from Paula Patelle.... who is a breeder in TN.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Just fyi - dogs can also be ichthyosis and PRA clear by ancestry, so there's no need for a clearance on those dogs. In those cases the breeder _sometimes_ will put "clear by ancestry" in the clearance spot on k9data, but there won't be anything on OFA because there's no test for OFA to post.

Also, when you have rigorous CERFing and some PRA clear by ancestry, the PRA genetic test can be a moot thing to do. When you do see it, it can be for peace of mind if there was PRA somewhere, so a breeder can be sure that what they're bringing in doesn't have it.

So, unlike hip, elbow, heart, and eye clearances, ichthyosis and PRA genetic tests are definitely optional and even nonsensical in some cases.

If you have any questions about the particular litter, definitely ask the breeder. A good breeder will have a clear rationale for the health of the litter, and the breeder who planned the litter will be the one with the most knowledge about the health concerns and what's been done to stack the deck in favor of the pups. That's why it's so important to go with somebody who knows what they're doing.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Nairb said:


> Could be. I wondered about that, because it was the only one I could find. They are from two different kennels though.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


THe one breeding that I am thinking about that happened was she had her bitch out with a handler and another dog that the handler had got to her.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Megora said:


> I think the sire came from Paula Patelle.... who is a breeder in TN.


He told us who it is a couple months back. He's on Goodtime's website. Look at his past posts. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

kfayard said:


> THe one breeding that I am thinking about that happened was she had her bitch out with a handler and another dog that the handler had got to her.


If that's the case, I don't fault them for it. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Goldenjack,

If you were looking at a litter where the grandfather on the dam's side was a carrier, yet the sire had not been tested, would you take a puppy from that litter?

Edit: for ichythiosis. 

Edit 2: also assume no test for dam 
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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Also be aware that the different genetic tests were made available at different times. The ichthyosis test, for example, is very recent. I think we'll see more adoption of it as we go forward, because you can use it to avoid producing affected dogs without striking good dogs from the gene pool (it takes two carriers or one affected parent—*edit:* and a carrier—to produce affected puppies).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> Goldenjack,
> 
> If you were looking at a litter where the grandfather on the dam's side was a carrier, yet the sire had not been tested, would you take a puppy from that litter?
> 
> Edit: for ichythiosis.


This question wasn't directed at me, but I'd say yes for sure. I'd certainly would take (and have taken) a puppy where none of the dogs were tested and none of the dogs had symptoms, so it would be weird to skip the litter just because one grandparent had been tested and shown up a carrier.

In these litter conversations, there's often a penalty on breeders who give more information, and when we allow that trend, we punish those who are open and those who engage in more testing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nairb said:


> He told us who it is a couple months back. He's on Goodtime's website. Look at his past posts.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


... he was bred by Goodtime, but owned by Paula Patelle who from what I understand was trying to figure out the whole story.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

At this time ichthyosis just isn't a major concern for me. I think the numbers of dogs with severe symptoms don't justify changing breeding decisions. I really think (and this is just my own thoughts, not based on hard facts) that the chances of getting a puppy with elbow problems from two cleared parents is greater than getting a puppy with severe icht. even from two carriers or from affecteds. Most of the dogs that are testing affected either never have any symptoms or they are extremely mild. There are so many things that can go wrong in dog breeding, I haven't seen enough evidence myself that this is an area to be throwing out what would otherwise be considered good breedings.

Of course that's only my opinion and I know many disagree with me. And I suppose if I lived with a dog with severe symptoms I might not be willing to take the chance a second time. But that kind of goes for any issue in breeding, we all have to pick where our priorities are on a long list.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

LusaGA said:


> I found two breeders that I would appreciate input on. Aussie Goldens and willow Creek. Thanks so much.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I'm sorry, I do not have personal knowledge of those two. Just be sure and ask, no matter who the breeder is, if they provide proof that the parents of any litter you are interested in has all 4 health clearances.

Margie Sarkin at Goldruls has an excellent reputation but does not have a litter planned at this time although that may change possibly. I just was emailing with her to help out a friend and she gave me the following suggestion. Since Margie recommended her, if it were me, this is who I would contact first :

Kathee West is expecting a litter that would be ready to go home late April, early May. She is south of Augusta, GA. Her email is [email protected] 

These people all know each other. When I research (I've been trying to help my parents and also a friend), I always ask the breeder I contact that if they don't have anything planned if they would give me suggestions on does all health clearances and who they would recommend if it were someone in their family trying to find a puppy.
Best of luck with your search.

Here is the Breeder list on the Atlanta GRCA site:
==================================
Atlanta Golden Retriever Breeder Information

Even though the following AGRC members are listed as breeders, they may not have puppies available for any time in the foreseeable future. If they do not respond to your inquiry, please understand that the sheer volume of calls and e-mails can be overwhelming -- sometimes 5 or 10 a day. If a breeder does not contact you within a reasonable amount of time, please assume that they don't have any puppies available.

Amos, Carole – Lanier Goldens - 678-234-9717 – [email protected]
Bowen, Robin – Prism Goldens – 423-875-0952 - [email protected] 
Cathey, Kitty – Pekay Goldens – 770-297-7787 – [email protected]
Cordell, Marie & Darrel – Darma Goldens - 770-382-8150 – [email protected]
Daunch, Jennifer – Bravada Goldens – 706-219-4022 - [email protected]
DeJong, Barbara – Pueblo Goldens – 770-602-1049 - [email protected]
Franklin, Maria – Starfire Goldens – 615-822-7117 – [email protected] 
Free, Janet – Willowcreek Goldens – 865-765-0606 - [email protected]
Hackney, Anna – Sandspur Goldens – 850-341-6157 - [email protected] 
Jaecksch, Pam – Southern Gold Golden Retrievers – 770-363-8037 – [email protected]
Jaynes, Collette - Jazzin Golden Retrievers – 864-684-8484 – [email protected] 
Koons, Debbie – Liberty Goldens – 704-421-0379 – [email protected] 
Lites, Penny – Pendery Goldens - 404-409-8504 – [email protected] 
McDaniel-Bell, Julie – Wingold Goldens– [email protected]
McElroy, Mary – Amate Golden Retrievers - 770-932-5135 - [email protected] 
Moore, Jan - GoldStrike Goldens - 770-784-6063 - [email protected]
Revell, Mary Ann – Double R Goldens – 478-957-1080 – [email protected]
Sarkin, Margie – Goldruls Goldens - 706-485-3127 - [email protected]
Shreve, Sheila – Grand Bay Goldens – 229-244-8836 – [email protected]
Smith, Kathy – Goodtime Goldens - 404-256-4451 - [email protected]
West, Kathee – 706-465-3113 – Lions Watch Golden Retrievers – [email protected]


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, Tippy, if you bred an affected to a clear, none of the pups will be affected. All of the pups will be carriers..it is recessive...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> This question wasn't directed at me, but I'd say yes for sure. I'd certainly would take (and have taken) a puppy where none of the dogs were tested and none of the dogs had symptoms, so it would be weird to skip the litter just because one grandparent had been tested and shown up a carrier.
> 
> In these litter conversations, there's often a penalty on breeders who give more information, and when we allow that trend, we punish those who are open and those who engage in more testing.


Problem is the dam could could be carrier, because the grandfather was. Without additional info, the only way to know, is if the sire and/or dam were tested. I'm not saying to penalize those who do not test, but those who make the extra effort should be applauded. If your male tests as a carrier, so what? Find a clear female to breed to. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Nairb said:


> Problem is the dam could could be carrier, because the grandfather was. Without additional info, the only way to know, is if the sire and/or dam were tested. I'm not saying to penalize those who do not test, but those who make the extra effort should be applauded. If your male tests as a carrier, so what? Find a clear female to breed to.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Since the question was directed at me I'll be frank. Do I want a dog with ichythiosis, no, of course not. But if I had decided that I was very happy with everything else in the pedigree I would not hesitate to take a puppy if both parents were not tested. To me, while ichythiosis can certainly be an issue for people with dogs with severe symptoms (in no way am I trying to minimize it) there are just bigger fish to fry in the breed right now. There is never going to be a pedigree without any issues, if a breeder or owner says that have a dog/breeding without any health issues in the entire pedigree they are not being honest with you. It's inherent in the breed and to believe otherwise or claim otherwise is sticking one's (general) head in the sand. But a breeder, IMO, should be doing what they can to breed away from the issues and reduce the influence of those questionable dogs/lines in the pedigrees of the puppies they produce. 

Too many people are breeding lines with health issues that make me nervous, this is not from personal experience but from the knowledge base of many people who have been kind enough to mentor me on pedigrees. But my concern is that is leaving dogs and puppy buyers to suffer from the ramifications of their actions. This is a MUCH bigger issue than ichythiosis to me. So, that is my long winded way of saying that if I had already decided that it was a pedigree I was comfortable with (health and longevity wise) coming from a breeder I was comfortable with, then I would have no qualms about taking a puppy if both parents weren't screened for ichythiosis.

And for clarification's sake, I am not referring to the breeder being discussed when I talk about these things. I have heard nothing but wonderful things about Goodtime goldens.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Megora said:


> ... he was bred by Goodtime, but owned by Paula Patelle who from what I understand was trying to figure out the whole story.


You are correct. I had the correct dog, and it is listed on Goodtime's website, but has a different owner. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Assuming clearances check out, and that was in fact an accidental breeding, Goodtimes does look good from what I can tell. 


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

The more I see these issues the more I would want to see it done. I do not see it as a penalty on the breeder but as a precaution for the future pups.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Not to,hijack, but what is appealing to me about doing the testing is that we are talking about recessive traits. So, even if you have an affected you do not have to remove the dog from the breeding population. You would just make the decision to breed to clears, not carriers. All the pups would then be carriers, so then you would then make the decision to breed to clears...


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Nairb said:


> A few years ago, Goodtime bred their then 12 mo. old stud to an 11 mo old bitch. Depending on your feelings about that, it could be an option. The breeder is a former Westminster BOS winner.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Breeders do have accidental breedings when they are out of town, have someone else watching the dogs, a dog gets out, etc. You cannot just assume that this breeding was done as a planned breeding. You are putting things out on the internet about various breeders that may or may not be true and some of the issues lately(not specifically talking about you) are bordering on slander.



Nairb said:


> I agree, the ichtycosis test isn't required, but nice to have. There are carriers on Bella's dam's side. Since Bella's sire tested clear, I know she can never be affected. Good peace of mind.


If there are known affecteds, etc in a pedigree, that is a different story and dogs should be tested. There can also be dogs that are clear thru parentage and not everyone has all these clearances listed on the OFA website. A few years ago, someone had requested(because she was no longer going to be breeding and didn't want questions down the line about her dogs) that we do the PRA and prcd test on one of our boys she had used multiple times. We did the clearance and he is clear and is listed on the website set up by Gerry Clinchy for these clearances but I did not send it into the OFA.

So, again, it is something that needs to be discussed with the breeder to see if there are known affecteds or carriers in the pedigrees and one really cannot nor should they just make assumptions about what has and has not been done.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I caution everyone once again to remember this is a very public forum, and your speculations and comments will be on the internet for a very long time.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hvgoldens4 said:


> Breeders do have accidental breedings when they are out of town, have someone else watching the dogs, a dog gets out, etc. You cannot just assume that this breeding was done as a planned breeding. You are putting things out on the internet about various breeders that may or may not be true and some of the issues lately(not specifically talking about you) are bordering on slander.
> 
> 
> If there are known affecteds, etc in a pedigree, that is a different story and dogs should be tested. There can also be dogs that are clear thru parentage and not everyone has all these clearances listed on the OFA website. A few years ago, someone had requested(because she was no longer going to be breeding and didn't want questions down the line about her dogs) that we do the PRA and prcd test on one of our boys she had used multiple times. We did the clearance and he is clear and is listed on the website set up by Gerry Clinchy for these clearances but I did not send it into the OFA.
> ...


I didn't slander anyone. I simply repeated what the breeder has entered in K9 Data. Another member clarified the situation. I, in turn agreed that they should not be faulted. In addition, I mentioned that they appear to be a good choice for a puppy!

Be careful with your definition of slander. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually, Tippy, if you bred an affected to a clear, none of the pups will be affected. All of the pups will be carriers..it is recessive...


Thanks! My post was poorly written and incorrect.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> Problem is the dam could could be carrier, because the grandfather was. Without additional info, the only way to know, is if the sire and/or dam were tested. I'm not saying to penalize those who do not test, but those who make the extra effort should be applauded. If your male tests as a carrier, so what? Find a clear female to breed to.


Yes, but a known risk isn't worse than an unknown risk. Knowing that one grandfather was a carrier isn't worse than not knowing the grandfather's status.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Nairb said:


> I agree, the ichtycosis test isn't required, but nice to have. There are carriers on Bella's dam's side. Since Bella's sire tested clear, I know she can never be affected. Good peace of mind.


NairB, upon first glance on OFA and K9data, it seems like Bella's pedigree is missing several clearances even though the ichtycosis. Is there a reason you chose that particular litter with standards so different from your stance today about what info you like to see on the databases? I am really curious, and a bit confused. I must have missed out on a lot of the back story and am scrambling to catch up.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nairb*  
_A few years ago, Goodtime bred their then 12 mo. old stud to an 11 mo old bitch. Depending on your feelings about that, it could be an option. The breeder is a former Westminster BOS winner. 


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Breeders do have accidental breedings when they are out of town, have someone else watching the dogs, a dog gets out, etc. You cannot just assume that this breeding was done as a planned breeding. You are putting things out on the internet about various breeders that may or may not be true and some of the issues lately(not specifically talking about you) are bordering on slander.



Nairb said:


> I didn't slander anyone. I simply repeated what the breeder has entered in K9 Data. Another member clarified the situation. I, in turn agreed that they should not be faulted. In addition, I mentioned that they appear to be a good choice for a puppy!
> 
> Be careful with your definition of slander.
> 
> ...


Really?????? Be careful of MY definition of slander?? If you actually took the time to read my posts, this would not even be an issue. Things are really getting a little ridiculous around here with some very self important people.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> I didn't slander anyone. I simply repeated what the breeder has entered in K9 Data. Another member clarified the situation. I, in turn agreed that they should not be faulted. In addition, I mentioned that they appear to be a good choice for a puppy!
> 
> Be careful with your definition of slander.


She didn't say you did. She said, "some of the issues are bordering on slander" and was even careful to say "not specifically talking about you" in her response to you.



hvgoldens4 said:


> You are putting things out on the internet about various breeders that may or may not be true and some of the issues lately (not specifically talking about you) are bordering on slander.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> NairB, upon first glance on OFA and K9data, it seems like Bella's pedigree is missing several clearances even though the ichtycosis. Is there a reason you chose that particular litter with standards so different from your stance today about what info you like to see on the databases? I am really curious, and a bit confused. I must have missed out on a lot of the back story and am scrambling to catch up.


Heart and eyes for the dam were not sent to OFA, but I requested them in advance. I received them within hours. If you have any further questions, feel free to contact the breeder. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

It's becoming increasingly clear that certain breeders are now above reproach around here. We're not allowed to question ANYTHING if they're a member of some sort of exclusive club that seems to exist in the breeding community. Until something changes with that, I will leave these discussions to the smart folks. Thanks. 


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Since you brought up your dog Bella as an example a few posts ago, I thought all her clearances would be right there, as you have been very strong on all these breeders to be black and white. That is what made me ask.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

In fact, I might just join Shalva and just leave the site. I've had just about enough. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> Since you brought up your dog Bella as an example a few posts ago, I thought all her clearances would be right there, as you have been very strong on all these breeders to be black and white. That is what made me ask.


I've never once made an issue of heart and eyes not being sent in to OFA. Never. 


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Nairb said:


> Heart and eyes for the dam were not sent to OFA, but I requested them in advance. I received them within hours. If you have any further questions, feel free to contact the breeder.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I can't find an eye clearance for dad either, on OFA or on k9data. 

I don't jump to immediate conclusions about your dog or breeder, and that is my point. Right now, there is grey area with a quick look.

Things are complex with dogs and dog breeding.

The point isnt to take your ball and go home bc you are now being asked the exact same kind of question you've been asking of others. 

It is to get into the complexity of it and try to understand the whys.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> It's becoming increasingly clear that certain breeders are now above reproach around here. We're not allowed to question ANYTHING if they're a member of some sort of exclusive club that seems to exist in the breeding community. Until something changes with that, I will leave these discussions to the smart folks. Thanks.


C'mon - it's a fair question when somebody takes a position in a forum post but doesn't appear to follow it with their own dog. It's like if you found a video where I was training Comet with an e-collar. I wouldn't have to explain it if I didn't want to, but it would hardly be appropriate for me to be mad that you asked.

The clearance history has many gaps in what's posted, particularly in terms of CERFs. The CoE says it should all be posted. Since you took a position that the letter of the CoE was what was important, it's a fair question as to why you would buy a dog that didn't meet the standards you set out.

If you looked back through the history of every dog I've ever owned, you'll see similar gaps with more than one of them. I'm willing to explain why I took those dogs anyway, though some of that information needs to be private. Things are complicated when you breed or buy a dog, and not everything always matches up to the ideals on a piece of paper.

You've made a very strong position about following the letter of the CoE over the last week. That's why these questions are relevant.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

The moderators are ruining this site, and I'm not the only one who believes that. You guys are becoming too involved in these discussions (not all of you).


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## Donatella (Jan 21, 2013)

:wave: LusaGA
I sent you a pm with my breeder's info, hope its helpful. Any questions just let me know....i think you may need 15 posts in order to private message, just fyi.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Well back on topic, I'll say this discussion (minus the disagreements) has made me decide to do Jack's testing through Optigen for ichthyosis, PRCC-PRA and GR-PRA1. I submitted him online today and will send in his samples next week  I will do the girls as well after I do their other clearances.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Goldenjackpuppy, I think that is great! As I said earlier, it would not preclude even breeding affecteds... For me it was piece of mind(especially with the PRA's). It IS expensive...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Yes I noticed that today! LOL


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## LusaGA (Jan 1, 2013)

I'm new but it seems like there is a lot left to paperwork, databases and rumors. I'm sorry to hear all the arguing and discontent. I'm not looking for a perfect dog just as when I adopted my children I did not look for a perfect child because IMO perfection doesn't exist. I'm ok with that and if the breeder I chose took reasonable precautions it will be more than what my son's birth mother did by drinking all through her pregnancy. My point here is that my family loves Goldens and we want to purchase one for a family pet. Friday my son is having surgery so he can hear and I wanted to surprise him with a new member to our family. I'm sorry this discussion ended up going in a different direction. 


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually, Tippy, if you bred an affected to a clear, none of the pups will be affected. All of the pups will be carriers..it is recessive...


I was just about to say that!! I'm glad this genetics class this semester is somewhat useful!


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Nairb said:


> In fact, I might just join Shalva and just leave the site. I've had just about enough.



It was a simple question she had asked of you to provide more information on. I don't think it's an excuse to leave the Forum, just because you have asked about other breeder's dogs. Don't go assuming we are all against you and that us breeders have some "exclusive club" we all belong to.

Our breed is very precious and with all of the backyard breeders, puppy mills, etc., that we have; I fear our breed will have increasing health issues. Breeding is an art, you have to take the good with the bad at times. 

I see some people breeding to dogs that are known to produce bad hearts, very early cancers, throat swallowing disorders, etc. It saddens me to see this happening. I can only bite my tongue and stick with the dogs I like and have health and longevity behind their pedigrees.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

LusaGA said:


> I'm new but it seems like there is a lot left to paperwork, databases and rumors. I'm sorry to hear all the arguing and discontent. I'm not looking for a perfect dog just as when I adopted my children I did not look for a perfect child because IMO perfection doesn't exist. I'm ok with that and if the breeder I chose took reasonable precautions it will be more than what my son's birth mother did by drinking all through her pregnancy. My point here is that my family loves Goldens and we want to purchase one for a family pet. Friday my son is having surgery so he can hear and I wanted to surprise him with a new member to our family. I'm sorry this discussion ended up going in a different direction.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I hope you find the best dog for your family, please forgive us if it sounds a little crazy here. These truly are a good group of people, every single one of them, whose hearts are in the right place, just disagreeing on some of the details and how you reach your goals. (The healthiest golden possible that remains true to the standard). I hope you just keep doing your due diligence and continue educating yourself and I'm sure it will all work out. I hope your son's surgery is a wonderful success and he comes through with flying colors. We would love to see photos and hear all about your puppy when he comes home. Wishing you all the best.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I see some people breeding to dogs that are known to produce bad hearts, very early cancers, throat swallowing disorders, etc. It saddens me to see this happening. I can only bite my tongue and stick with the dogs I like and have health and longevity behind their pedigrees.


Aren't they also known to produce healthy and long lived dogs as well? 

I stick to my hope that a lot of these breeders are not just winging it when they are breeding to X or Y. And I'm sure in their case they want the moon when it comes to what they are breeding. 

Bertie's a descendant of that dog with the rumored throat issues, and he has no difficulty swallowing things. Actually... I'm sure that will get him in trouble at some point. 

@OP - I wish you luck in your search for a dog. Probably the only caution throat clearing thing is that it sounds like your hands are full right now. Puppies are a handful. 

I saw your comment on the other thread about the cost of puppies - and that's probably another thing. I saved up for a couple years before getting the puppy I have now. He wasn't TOO expensive, but I wanted to make sure I could write a check without denting my bank account.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora, I'm not sure what it is you're asking ?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I was asked to remove names. 

I think the comment was seen by the people asking me a question anyway, so it can go bye-bye.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> I can't find an eye clearance for dad either, on OFA or on k9data.
> 
> I don't jump to immediate conclusions about your dog or breeder, and that is my point. Right now, there is grey area with a quick look.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I know. It's kind of hard to read. I took a picture of it, since my scanner broke. This will have to do. I blacked out the address and phone # of the breeder, but those are easy to find anyway. 










I have the others too, but that's not the point here. I was not questioning whether this breeder had clearances, and I've never really cared if they are all sent to OFA. It's nice if they can be looked up online, but it's never bothered me. I made a point about the Ichytiosis test that I believed, and still believe was relevant to the discussion at the time. I'm puzzled as to why that set you off.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Megora said:


> I probably wasn't clear enough.  I thought I read or somebody told me that Kirby was rumored to have throat/swallowing issues? And dogs in his line have those problems.
> 
> And I got the impression there were other things about dogs from him not living as long... <- I could be wrong about that. When somebody hinted at rumors about Kirby, I went searching all over since he appears a couple times in my puppy's pedigree.
> 
> And you had members on here talking about how they wouldn't touch a pedigree with Kirby in it. <- Actually not that much different than how people back in the 90's said rather cryptically and grimly they wouldn't touch a pedigree with Wild Blue Yonder in it without saying why. :doh:


Hobo did not at all have any type of swallowing disorder. He was also 14 years old when he died(recently) and I certainly would never say that was young!!

Kirby was also not Hobo's father. Am Can CH. Golden Pine Dustrax Maverick CDX TDX RE OS CGC Can CD (12/19/1994-4/17/2009) was Hobo's father and again, certainly not a dog who was young when he passed.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I was asked to remove names. 

I think the comment was seen by the people asking me a question anyway, so it can go bye-bye.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I was asked to remove names. 

I think the comment was seen by the people asking me question anyway, so it can go bye-bye.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

And....to be clear, ONCE AGAIN. 

I would have no problem getting a puppy from Goodtimes Goldens. They look like a very reputable breeder from what I can tell.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Back when I was showing Laney and then Cookie in obedience, we showed against a lot of nice Goodtimes sired dogs...


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Megora said:


> Aren't they also known to produce healthy and long lived dogs as well?
> 
> A good example I can think of is Hobo. Did he have throat swallowing issues like his grandfather was rumored to have? And did he die young?
> 
> ...


This is why people need to talk to their breeders. I know I sound like a broken record on this point but it is EVER so important.  The breeders are the ones who have the correct information about the dogs and the lines and when information is missing on k9data, they know the answers to those questions. It takes years and years of studying pedigrees, etc to know what lies behind each pedigree. 

Again, there is no perfect dog and no perfect pedigrees. All of them have issues that can be brought to to forefront without careful breeding and this is where the knowledge of the breeder is ever so important.

@ megora-sorry, I should have my glasses on when reading everything and should not try to post while doing other things. You did in fact say grand-father.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Back when I was showing Laney and then Cookie in obedience, we showed against a lot of nice Goodtimes sired dogs...


That is one thing that I am impressed with. They are active with their dogs outside of the conformation ring. They really do look top notch.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Hobo was such a vibrant longlived dog- no swallowing disorder there.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hvgoldens4 said:


> This is why people need to talk to their breeders. I know I sound like a broken record on this point but it is EVER so important.  The breeders are the ones who have the correct information about the dogs and the lines and when information is missing on k9data, they know the answers to those questions. It takes years and years of studying pedigrees, etc to know what lies behind each pedigree.


I think this is why reputability is so important among breeders. When you ask a bad breeder about the gaps in the clearances or the problems in the pedigree, they sometimes spin an _amazing_ set of half truths. I've talked a few friends out of some really risky litters, and I've seen bits and pieces of what the breeders tell them, and some of the greedy folks are incredible liars. A regular pet puppy person has no real way of telling the difference.

That's one reason I love this forum. I know some of the people here and some others by reputation, and I can definitely tell who's got the dogs' best interests at heart. Those people guide my impressions, and more than once, I've changed my position based on the thoughtful feedback of a person vastly more experienced than I am. That goes for training and breeding practices both.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> The moderators are ruining this site, and I'm not the only one who believes that. You guys are becoming too involved in these discussions (not all of you).


The mods are allowed to have opinions. If they edit your posts or threaten to ban you because they don't like what you've said, then they're ruining the site, but having opinions as strong as the rest of us is no crime. The mods on this site have been _incredibly_ good. Personally, I don't know how they stay so impartial when some of us (myself included occasionally) write posts that are too strongly worded or inappropriate in some way. My one complaint is that I find they tend to close threads preemptively before they really go south, but I can't really fault them for that, since they have to deal with the fallout of a messy thread and I don't.

For what it's worth, I hope you don't leave. I like your contributions, though we differ greatly—very greatly—on some of these issues.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> The mods are allowed to have opinions. If they edit your posts or threaten to ban you because they don't like what you've said, then they're ruining the site, but having opinions as strong as the rest of us is no crime. The mods on this site have been _incredibly_ good. Personally, I don't know how they stay so impartial when some of us (myself included occasionally) write posts that are too strongly worded or inappropriate in some way. My one complaint is that I find they tend to close threads preemptively before they really go south, but I can't really fault them for that, since they have to deal with the fallout of a messy thread and I don't.
> 
> For what it's worth, I hope you don't leave. I like your contributions, though we differ greatly—very greatly—on some of these issues.


First off, I have great respect for the mod who I bumped heads with earlier. A few months back, she was very helpful when I had questions about fronts and finishes. I even sped searched through the Westminster video to watch Lush being shown. I was rooting for her dog. That being said, I believe what took place earlier today was highly inappropriate. I'll just leave it at that.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Maddie has no swallowing problem what so ever.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> First off, I have great respect for the mod who I bumped heads with earlier. A few months back, she was very helpful when I had questions about fronts and finishes. I even sped searched through the Westminster video to watch Lush being shown. I was rooting for her dog. That being said, I believe what took place earlier today was highly inappropriate. I'll just leave it at that.


It's an interesting, relevant question she asked you. Personally, I think our own dogs are fair game when we articulate principles about breeding, training, and other issues. If we say one thing on the forum but practice another with our personal dogs, the question is fair. An attack isn't, but a question is. If I had noticed the gap in the CERFs, I would have asked too.

Obviously, you disagree, which I respect. But I don't see it as inappropriate. Neither of your dog's parents has a published CERF, but you made a very big deal in the last few days about following the letter of the CoE, which states that CERFs should be published. It's uncomfortable to field questions about one's personal dogs, but the question are sometimes quite relevant to the discussion. It's hard not to take personally, though, so I totally understand why you don't think it's appropriate.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

*Moderating*

Having had no previous involvement with this thread and without having read all of it, I am going to offer a couple of thoughts about moderating. First, as I understand it, our responsibility as Mods is to protect this community and to see that the Forum rules are enforced. When we fail to do those things, valued members resign in protest because they are discouraged by the lack of civility that can creep when passions run high. Do we sometimes close a thread too soon? Almost certainly from the standpoint of people who have not finished having their say, but not nearly soon enough from the standpoint of those who think that things have gone too far. We do our best and sometimes debate for hours about how to handle a thread that is becoming volatile. We want to leave room for honest exchange of diverse opinions and information, while also maintaining an environment that feels friendly. We are bound to get it not quite right sometimes.

If we didn't have a strong commitment to the breed and to the GRF, we would not invest the significant amount of time and energy that it takes to be Mods. With that commitment come some strong opinions, which should be expressed with as much courtesy as we expect of others. When we fail to do that, then we have let the GRF down. And we are human, too, much as I sometimes hate to admit it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Obviously, you disagree, which I respect. But I don't see it as inappropriate. Neither of your dog's parents has a published CERF, but you made a very big deal in the last few days about following the letter of the CoE, which states that CERFs should be published. It's uncomfortable to field questions about one's personal dogs, but the question are sometimes quite relevant to the discussion. It's hard not to take personally, though, so I totally understand why you don't think it's appropriate.


I have no opinion on the argument on the CERFS, but I think people can make their points or discuss issues without (deliberately) making it personal to the person on the other side.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

I believe it is very easy to get into heated debates about anything that we(collective) feel strongly about. Obviously, this is the GR forum so in this case it is golden retrievers.

It is also rather easy to sit behind a computer when you are angry, upset, trying to get your point across and then hit "send". However, we(again collective and not being directed at any person) really must try to remember that these dogs have owners and breeders and speculation does no one any good. If you have questions about a particular dog/line/pedigree, then you should ask that breeder or owner of the dog.

What you put out on the internet stays out there and there are many more people who just read posts on the forum, rather than really participating and we certainly do not want to disseminate incorrect information about any particular breeder or dog.

Just as an example from today, the fact that Kathy(the breeder of the underage accidental litter) had posted the information on K9data shows repsonsibility on her part. She did not sweep it under the rug and there is nothing stated anywhere that any breedings need to be recorded on k9data. It is a tool that breeders may chose to use. I am also not saying that breeders should be penalized for not using k9data because a lot of the older, long time breeders do not use the internet much or even have real websites, etc.

I will state again, that a breeder that is being forthcoming about information about their dogs-accidental breedings, cause of death, dates of death-is someone who has the breeds best interest at heart. Responsibility is a huge part of being a breeder and when this information is out there, I think that says a lot about the breeder.

I just have to say it again-if you have questions about a particular dog, breeder, or even clearance information or gaps, contact the breeder and get the information first hand.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> It's an interesting, relevant question she asked you. Personally, I think our own dogs are fair game when we articulate principles about breeding, training, and other issues. If we say one thing on the forum but practice another with our personal dogs, the question is fair. An attack isn't, but a question is. If I had noticed the gap in the CERFs, I would have asked too.
> 
> Obviously, you disagree, which I respect. But I don't see it as inappropriate. Neither of your dog's parents has a published CERF, but you made a very big deal in the last few days about following the letter of the CoE, which states that CERFs should be published. It's uncomfortable to field questions about one's personal dogs, but the question are sometimes quite relevant to the discussion. It's hard not to take personally, though, so I totally understand why you don't think it's appropriate.


Well, actually....the sire had a published eye clearance on OFA at the time, but as Goldenjack stated, some have disappeared from the OFA site. And...as I stated earlier, I asked for, and recieved both heart and eye clearances from the dam. I have never given a rat's a** about heart and eye clearances being sent into OFA. As I pointed out earlier, this seemed to be set off by my commenting on the Ichyitosis test on Bella's sire. My comment was in reponse to a conversation that had been ongoing, and had absolutely nothing to do with the specific breeder that was being discussed.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hvgoldens4 said:


> I just have to say it again-if you have questions about a particular dog, breeder, or even clearance information or gaps, contact the breeder and get the information first hand.



Fair enough as long as this applies to every breeder out there.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> I have no opinion on the argument on the CERFS, but I think people can make their points or discuss issues without (deliberately) making it personal to the person on the other side.


If it's fair to call our breeders publicly for not following some piece of the CoE, or fair to speculate publicly about well known stud dogs, it's fair to ask people who participate in that very same public debate about their own dogs.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hvgoldens4 said:


> I believe it is very easy to get into heated debates about anything that we(collective) feel strongly about. Obviously, this is the GR forum so in this case it is golden retrievers.
> 
> It is also rather easy to sit behind a computer when you are angry, upset, trying to get your point across and then hit "send". However, we(again collective and not being directed at any person) really must try to remember that these dogs have owners and breeders and speculation does no one any good. If you have questions about a particular dog/line/pedigree, then you should ask that breeder or owner of the dog.
> 
> ...


While I agree that it is admiral that they put the accidental breeding on K9 Data, I also don't think it's innapropriate to ask about it. In fact, I would argue that an unanswered question far to often leaves doubts in the minds of some who may be looking at it. I raised it. It was addressed by a forum member familiar with the situation. And, anyone who stumbles accross this thread will have no need to be concerned about it, or even inquire about it. If I were considering a puppy from Goodtimes, I would have no concerns whatsoever about it. I don't know how many more times I need to say it.


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## Iris (Jan 9, 2013)

*Swallowing disorder*

I have been following this whole thread. I currently have a golden that does seem to have a swallowing disorder. Where CAN info be found about this in the pedigree?? Happy to use pm if that is more appropriate. She also still gets carsick at almost seven years old.

She is not from goodtimes.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nairb said:


> Well, actually....the sire had a published eye clearance on OFA at the time, but as Goldenjack stated, some have disappeared from the OFA site. And...as I stated earlier, I asked for, and recieved both heart and eye clearances from the dam. I have never given a rat's a** about heart and eye clearances being sent into OFA. As I pointed out earlier, this seemed to be set off by my commenting on the Ichyitosis test on Bella's sire. My comment was in reponse to a conversation that had been ongoing, and had absolutely nothing to do with the specific breeder that was being discussed.


FYI - they're not on the CERF database either, nor have they listed a CERF number on k9data, despite having listed the other clearance there, so you may be mistaken that a CERF was ever published. Just so you know.

Do you understand why it's a bit confusing that you don't give a rat's whatever about that part of the CoE when you made such a big deal out of the other parts of it?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hvgoldens4 said:


> What you put out on the internet stays out there and there are many more people who just read posts on the forum, rather than really participating and we certainly do not want to disseminate incorrect information about any particular breeder or dog.


1. Which is why I PM'd you and asked you to edit my comment out of yours. It was kindly suggested to me to remove names to avoid people freaking out about any rumors being spelled out as I've heard them. I did the best I could to modify my comments or clear them out because I've been a member of this club long enough to know what happens when you get people started. It seems you have a lot of people who are very eager and waiting for an argument to start so they can jump in with the kitchen knives. 

2. My comment(s) were carefully worded to avoid making any statements that are not already out there - or have been hinted at or discussed already on this forum. And I used words like "rumored" for that reason. And the goal of my statement was to support those breeders/owners of those dogs. 

3. I could say more, but I'll leave that to everyone's imagination if they actually know me at all...


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

> hvgoldens4: I just have to say it again-if you have questions about a particular dog, breeder, or even clearance information or gaps, contact the breeder and get the information first hand


.

I actually did do that about two weeks ago, while a particular breeder who I'm vaguely familiar with was being trashed. It turns out she does have all of the clearances, but didn't send some into OFA. She has registered on the forum, but has yet to weigh in.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think this thread has run its course and gone nowhere good...I am closing it.


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