# problem with water doubles



## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

Both of my boys are doing really good walk up land doubles and doing triples. Their water doubles are good when both marks land in water. In the water double if the memory mark falls on land, both dogs are very hesitant to go for the mark and seem unsure what to do. I have been using big white bumpers and when they see the bumper on land, they go. If it lands in cover, both either don't go or will go with pressure. What I have a hard time understanding is once they are swimming to the mark they both go right to it. So it appears to me they know where it is. If the memory mark lands in water over land and they only see the arc and not the actual fall, they both go for it. It has me puzzled. Any suggestions?

A few shots a friend took training this week.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

How old are these dogs? Are they through formal Basics?

The components of Basics in order

1)	“Here”
2)	“Heel & Sit”
3)	“Hold”; automatically evolves to Walking “Hold, Heel, Sit”
4)	“Fetch”; ear pinch, which evolves into Walking “Fetch” & “Fetch-no-fetch”, e-collar conditioning to “Fetch”
5)	Pile work, including Mini-pile, Nine bumper pile; AKA Force to pile
6)	3-handed casting; teaching the 3 basic casts – “Back” and both “Over’s”, including 2-hands “Back”
7)	Mini tee; includes collar conditioning to all basic commands, transferring to the go, stop, cast functions in micro dimension as preparation for the Single tee. Also includes De-bolting
8)	Single tee
9)	Double tee
10)	Water tee with Swim-by

EvanG


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## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

Jackson is 5 and Cooper is 2. Both have been through the basics you listed.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

What kind of cover? How heavy? Are they swimming through emergent vegetation to get to the land mark?


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## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

The cover would be thick grass, not too tall, up on the bank. Doesn't seem to matter if they are swimming through emergent vegetation or open water.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

A few thoughts. This is a very common problem.
You say they've been through the basics you listed so I will assume they have been water forced?

Suggestions:

Lots of long singles with long water exits. A long single requires a lot of memory and will strengthen that skill.

Quit using big white bumpers. Your dogs are beyond needing a visual target, and the more you use them the more the dogs become dependent on them. Change to BIRDS (best), or use large BLACK or ORANGE bumpers with STREAMERS. They will see them in the air but not floating in the water or sitting on the ground from any distance.

Run the memory bird as a single first - A LOT - then they have NO excuse for not knowing where it is.

Revisit water force from your side to a pile.

If they are halfway out or more and "get lost" and just get out of the AOF but are still hunting, feel free to have the gunner help. Otherwise the dog has two options : get the bird, or come back and face the consequences.

Now it's go time. If you have done all of these things, and they refuse to go, or go to the water's edge and balk, or go part way and pop or turn back, initiate your no-go procedure. Do you have an established correction for refusals?


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Just a thought are you adding scent to the bumpers? Sometimes this will help them drive to the mark....also try it with the mark being upwind so the scent cone has to hit them....

Luck...let us know how you work through this.....I may learn something!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I would definitely run it as a single first and then put it together as a double.
You may be doing this, I would make sure I have a gunner out there on the memory bird. After you pick up the go and turn to the memory have the gunner automatically step out as the dog looks out. If they still look lost try another step or two and a "Hey Hey" from the gunner.
Good luck!


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## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the great advice. We had a very successful training today. Threw the land memory mark, using the orange bumpers with streamers, as a single several times then ran several really good doubles. Started with short distance then moved down along the bank slowly increasing both the land and water marks. So happy to see both dogs eagerly going for the memory mark. I think they are starting to get it!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

What do your doubles look like right now? What concepts? What distances? Real birds, or just bumpers?

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

2golddogs said:


> A few shots a friend took training this week.
> View attachment 428385
> 
> 
> View attachment 428393


Wow, what great photographs! Very nice ... love the intense looks!

FTGoldens


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## Neeko13 (Jul 10, 2010)

No advice, just love hearing how great the boys are doing....


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

2golddogs said:


> Both of my boys are doing really good walk up land doubles and doing triples. Their water doubles are good when both marks land in water. In the water double if the memory mark falls on land, both dogs are very hesitant to go for the mark and seem unsure what to do. I have been using big white bumpers and when they see the bumper on land, they go. If it lands in cover, both either don't go or will go with pressure. What I have a hard time understanding is once they are swimming to the mark they both go right to it. So it appears to me they know where it is. If the memory mark lands in water over land and they only see the arc and not the actual fall, they both go for it. It has me puzzled. Any suggestions?


You've had some great suggestions, first retrieving the memory mark as a single, thereby teaching that mark, is a good tool and is often utilized; it may instill the confidence that they may need. 

I would be careful with pressure under these circumstances ... it's possible that pressure caused the problem, especially since both do the same thing. And since they go to the mark after pressure is delivered, it seems to me that there's some confusion going on and pressure can distract them from figuring out what they need to do. Also, ideally, you want them running TO something (i.e., the mark) instead of running FROM something (i.e., pressure on the line) ... it's not always possible to achieve that goal, but it's worth pursuing.

You want the dogs to get used to going after a second mark, whether it be on land or in the water, after they return with the first mark ... so it becomes a habit, an expectation. 

You may consider having the memory gunner throw another bumper when you are lining the dogs up to retrieve the second mark ... no shot or yell, just throw the bumper. Or, on the other hand, simply have the memory mark gunner simple give a "hey up" when you are setting the dog up to retrieve the memory mark. 

I also like to "imprint" a memory mark when teaching doubles, which is done by the memory gunner shooting/yelling and then throwing the mark ... then after the mark lands, the gunner goes out and picks up that mark and returns to the gunner station, then the mark is thrown again as part of the double. This may not help since your dogs are already doing land doubles and triples, but it may give them the extra little bit of confidence to go out and get that memory mark.

Also, are your gunners wearing white? If not, put white on them to give your dogs a cue as to where they need to go. 

Make sure that the marks are far apart, so there's no confusion as to where they need to go.

I had a dog that would occasionally give me a "no go" on water marks. I tried fixing the problem with the standard collar correction, but it didn't seem to last because I had to give the correction for the problem every month or so. Finally I changed tactics and gave a physical correction with a heeling stick ... problem solved (as I typed this, I was knocking on wood).

Question: Do they go for the second mark of a water double if the first one was up on land but the second one is visible in the water?

FTGoldens


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

EvanG said:


> What do your doubles look like right now? What concepts? What distances? Real birds, or just bumpers?
> 
> EvanG


Still thinking, or are you totally satisfied with what you've got?

EvanG


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