# Random question



## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Haha neither of my goldens are delicate about it. My 9 month old especially shows zero hesitation and runs at full speed when he jumps in.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Nate

Not true for all Goldens. Here is Buffy. Thor is the same way. Actually all of Buffy's offspring enter the water like this.

http://vid1107.photobucket.com/albums/h391/JumpingJohn-3/sepiadog.mp4


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Nate83 said:


> Me and my wife went to a hunt test for the first time with Prism a few weeks ago and one thing Prism pointed out for us to watch was how different it is when a golden versus a lab retrieves. The lab just bolts in and doesn't give a hoot, jumps in and splashes everywhere and Phelps swims to the bird but a golden just calmly walks to the water and just gingerly gets wet and swims like it is a Sunday swim and retrieves the bird. Why is it so different (wife really was curious) ?


Well, all goldens are not typical of what you experienced that day. This is an area where the individual dogs breeding says a lot about who they're going to be. Dogs that are bred for the field will more often than not hit the water as hard or harder than the Labs do. They don't walk or tiptoe near the waters edge.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I would not say my guys go to the water and enter it in any way that could be described as ginger or dainty... 

But I think I understand what you are referring to. 

I shared a side of a lake with somebody who brought 2 labs. And to see those labs going FULL TORPEDO straight out to the middle of the lake to fetch long retrieves (the owners had a contraption to fire balls way out), it was awe inspiring.  

I have seen golden retrievers (bred for field) who come close to being that dynamic in the water, but they are way smaller than the labs, so the effect isn't the same.

My guys are water seeking missiles if there is any pond/lake/river/stream nearby. Typically between the two, Jacks runs into the water and begins swimming like a muskrat (he doesn't cause too much ripples and noise as he glides out). Bertie will go flying in, will be jumping as he swimming to get ahead faster, and he swims FAST - but it's no comparison to those labs I saw. 

I think labs just have a ton more muscle in most case. The labs I saw were built like rottweilers - all muscle. But with lab energy/drive.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Yep he did exactly what the lab did LOL. I understand not all goldens r the same just something we noticed with all the golden that day is they where slower then the lab, that being said the goldens seemed more in control and more methodical. Both goldens and labs got there game face on when they heard the gun show tho.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Lol I can't wait for my new puppy I want a golden that loves water, Angel will actually run away from water it is a riot, I am like girl ur a retriever who is scared of water LOL. I think both of them are going to contrast each other it is to be fun.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Nate83 said:


> Lol I can't wait for my new puppy I want a golden that loves water, Angel will actually run away from water it is a riot, I am like girl ur a retriever who is scared of water LOL. I think both of them are going to contrast each other it is to be fun.


Its great when they love water, there is no better way to tire a dog out, and its low impact!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Not my dog. But it's a GCh (grand champion show dog). He's a launcher and always has been. Crazy dog!

I've seen lots and lots of labs that do not launch into the water. Not sure which hunt test you were at. But show labs are terrible about getting in the water sometimes. I've had a few that just plain refused to get in the water. I judge junior hunt tests.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

I went to the Mid Florida one. Every lab there was speedy most of the goldens where nice and laid back, it was a great experience.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

There are plenty of watery Golden’s out there. You just haven’t seen them yet!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

No, not just a Lab thing.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> There are plenty of watery Golden’s out there. You just haven’t seen them yet!


That proves the OP's point ... that darn Golden is trying to jump ACROSS the water! 
HA!!!

It's a bird ... it's a plane ... _*NO, it's SUPERPROOF!*_


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

I was in the middle of a hike last summer, and Hazel and I stopped at a pond so she could swim. A couple with a yellow lab showed up soon after and were floored at Hazel's water retrieving. The woman actually took out a pad of paper and wrote down Hazel's breeder, since up until then, they always assumed goldens were fuzzy couch potatoes.  Now she wanted one. FWIW, their lab was a big show type who didn't put one toe in the pond that day.

She has always been an enthusiastic puppy. This was her at about 5 months:


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## Ivyacres (Jun 3, 2011)

Enjoying the topic and loving all the pics!


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## dlmrun2002 (Mar 4, 2011)

My Katie didn't need a ball to swim. She had a much bigger target...... 


Yours truly


dlm ny country


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## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

Lily is a launcher as well. Kinda funny as the pool she goes to is pretty small, by the time she jumps in she's at the halfway mark already.

Wish Singapore had more dog friendly water bodies!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

welp looks like i need to go to more hunt test lol


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

At the last hunt test a lab owner said "does your dog know she is a golden?"


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Is it the line of the given golden as far as eagerness to enter the water or no?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Nate83 said:


> Is it the line of the given golden as far as eagerness to enter the water or no?


It can be. The GCh show dog I showed leaping in the water is unusual. Most show dogs aren’t that much into leaping. I know this particular show dog’s mom and grandma. Neither ever leap into the water ever. Never saw the sire, must be where it came from. But that GCh leaps every single time.

My own show dog will not leap the first time she enters a pond, she runs in. The second time she will leap. She has some hesitation at the water’s edge. Probably because she feels me thinking, don’t mess up your pretty fur! In mucky peat bog ponds, the mud can be chest deep. Lucy hates those ponds, of course I do too.

My field dogs have all been leapers. Riot can get some serious hang time. His parents and grandparents were the same way.

It’s also the confidence of the dog and their personality I think. Just like humans. Some of us jump off the diving board and some of us slide into the pool from the ladder, and a lot of people are in between.


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

These photos are priceless! 


Bayleigh was a dainty water enterer. Dory leaps in, face first, in anything but a dainty way.


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Max is very much a leaper with a water entry that even impressed his breeder @ less than 6 months old. Ax was a fearless leaper also. I think it's more of a field golden trait. That is of course NOT to imply that conformation type goldens cannot be great leapers as well, just that field types are likely more genetically predisposed toward it.

I have run across plenty of people who are of the opinion that labs are far superior athletes to goldens. I used to absolutely DELIGHT in watching Axl out run, out jump, out swim, out retrieve, and out effort young fit labs half his age. It was extremely satisfying...


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

Nate83 said:


> Is it the line of the given golden as far as eagerness to enter the water or no?


In my opinion, eagerness (desire to retrieve) in water is probably 75% breeding (field) and 25% early water socialization. Notice I use the term "eagerness" and not the term "jumping". Some very intense dogs do not jump but will still hit the water very hard. Some may argue that socialization is just as important and that is fine. It may just take more time without the breeding.

Obviously, water socialization is best done in the warmer months and at as many different lakes, ponds, bayous and training grounds you can. Even though I am in Texas, I time my litters so that the puppies have all summer to get in the water. 

My $0.02


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Water socialization first time i have heard that word, would make perfect sense because Angel will not go near water, heck she hates baths. Athena would be dainty but eventually would get right in. i am think of getting a kiddie pool for summer and lets the two pups play in it.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Every dog is different. In my experience, I see a lot of Goldens having issues getting into the water but I rarely see that with Labs. I talked to the breeder I'll get my Golden puppy from and she confirmed that Goldens, as a rule, are not as bold in the water as Labs and they try to have water boldness in their lines as much as possible. I brought this up to her specifically because around here, while we don't see too many Goldens at hunt tests the majority of the ones you do see tend to have water issues or issues in general in the field. When I see a Golden locally that runs (not trots) out to the bird and back and confidently enters the water, I take notice. In juniors, we get like 20 Labs and 4 Goldens on average, plus a very small handful of Boykins and Tollers. That said, I'm never sure if it's the training or the breeding that causes a Golden to perform in a certain manner, so that's something to keep in mind. Some pros train all dogs the same and Goldens are not field Labs. 

I have a conformation Lab and when the club gets together, there are very few dogs with water issues. Usually the issue is getting them out of the water, especially if it's hot that day! In fact, at our annual WC, many of the passes are Labs that have never swam or seen real birds! It can be entertaining... It's an instinct test so a lot of the breeders use the opportunity to see what the dog or puppy has in them. It's a fun event, relatively inexpensive and it supports the club. Watching a WC might give a person more information about the dog's instinct than a hunt test would. There is not a body of water my conformation Lab will not go in and he is not afraid of big water. However, he is not into diving or throwing himself in water. He has drive, but he's also thoughtful and a little less likely to do anything to act before thinking.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One thing to throw out there... and this is kinda in relation to dock jumping. 

I've had problems seeing that as a natural behavior that has anything to do with the purpose of the dogs as far as being field and pond working dogs. 

The dogs should have the courage to jump down into water, but I would hope they have the sense not to go running out and leaping X amount of feet in the air before landing in the water. It's "showy" but it makes NO sense for a dog. And most places where we take our dogs swimming, you don't want them flying out there without consideration of where they are landing. There's rocks, and this time of the year (when you have flowing water in spots and ice shelves beneath), there's real danger for dogs to be carelessly flying out there. 

Just running out into the water has some dangers as well - there's broken glass and hooks in some ponds and rivers. People are careless when they go fishing sometimes.

My younger guy DOES jump from anywhere and anyhow and it scares the heck out of me because he does not have a problem in jumping down from a height that could break legs OR get him stranded in the water while you both work to find a lower spot for him to climb out. 

A lot of the rivers (Huron river locally) carve a pretty good sized shelf below the riversides and there might be a 3+ foot drop between the riverside and the river below.

The dogs can climb out from 3+ feet using those dew claws and all that... 

But when the water levels are lower, that's more muck to struggle through and steep climbs out of the water. 

In most cases, I'd rather the dogs find level ground to go running out into the water before they start swimming. 

^^^ Had to say this all as somebody who does take my dogs out every week + they are off leash and usually that means they do find water faster than I do in most cases. 

Willingness to jump into the water + water courage are two things which I believe are both nature and nurture.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Megora said:


> One thing to throw out there... and this is kinda in relation to dock jumping.
> 
> I've had problems seeing that as a natural behavior that has anything to do with the purpose of the dogs as far as being field and pond working dogs.
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100%! I hear a lot about impalements and massive bruising in dogs that are diving into the water from the banks. I'm not sure how common it is and my inclination is that it doesn't happen enough for it to be a number one concern. Just because a dog is careful does not mean that it lacks desire, drive, courage, etc. There's a difference between a sensible dog and a dog that is lacking in confidence for sure!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Injuries don't happen very often. I've never seen one happen at a hunt test or field trial. Not saying they don't happen, but they are unusual. If the grounds look dangerous, don't enter your dog, or scratch them. Make sure your dog is properly conditioned. Nothing more harder to watch than a very fat show lab lumbering across a field to pick up a bird.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

I would have assumed that goes without saying only take your dog if it can do it safely. Angel i feel would be great if she got out of her fear zone, when it comes to the local birds or squirrel she is all about having no fear so i would assume she would translate that to the open field but i haven't tried it yet, the water part would be for another day.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I would like to comment on a couple of things. I think what is important in a dog's water entry is that he goes in without hesitation. I hate to see tiptoeing in which I feel is indicative of a lack of desire. I have seen dogs go in and lose confidence once they lose touch with the bottom but these dogs eventually overcame this. However, it took time.

I do agree that water socialization helps and I tend to take my time with this. However Thor on his first time at the water jumped right in and swam through lily pads to get a bumper. He was different.

Injuries can occur but it is up to the judges to construct a safe test. I did not like the water test that I saw that brought the dogs over a beaver dam. (Guess what my concerns are.) And then again Guy Fornuto told me of a hunt test he was at where a dog leaped into a pond and got impaled on a branch and died. Sad.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I agree that a flashy water entry doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is better or more watery than the dog with a more subdued entry. There are lots of times when I wished that proof didn't do a dive like that. There also are times when I have questioned the water in a pond I've not used before. IN fact, just recently I declined a set up because I just worried too much about my dog and his entry. Most of the time (at least where I live) the ponds used in trials and training are privately owned water and the ponds are man made. Unless the water is low generally those ponds are made with the dog's safety in mind. So I would ask how deep the water is or whatever. And lots of times I have completely turned my head at Proof's entry as it scared me, especially in between fingers where it looks like he might break his neck as he nearly makes it across the fingers. 
Ive been day training with a pro for over two years and with the other day trainers coming out there are often more than 30 dogs running that day. ALL LABS. I've seen labs not like the water or be hesitant or bulldoze right in. And I've seen PLENTY of cheaters of all breeds! 

I do agree that generally field goldens are more wide open around the field than the conformation goldens but that is a generalization so breeding would play a part in that for sure. do think water socialization is important but I got my dog in the dead of winter and he couldn't get in water for a long time. He was hesitant at first with water but his desire to retrieve overcame these nerves without me doing anything but letting him feel it out on his own. Then after a while with exposure he just got into the water entries, he enjoys them! He just loves it so I think that mostly comes from his personality.

One comment I do want to mention. I don't think field goldens are like field labs but I do believe they should be trained the same way. The only adjustments that should be made would be according to the dog itself not the breed. If I treated Proof with "golden" gloves he would not have excelled the way he did. He doesn't know he is a red dog. He probably thinks he is black since he has no mirror in his kennel, ha ha, and all he sees all day are labs. IN fact, I caught a lot of flack in his early training days for pushing him too fast and hearing oh be careful goldens are way more sensitive than labs or they need to be asked not told blah blah blah. ON the other hand....I've seen labs that were extremely sensitive and therefore trained a bit different. Very few dogs are all the same mentally. But I think the basics and the expectations should be the same for field labs and field goldens. I mean really I don't even see how you would train the two breeds differently. Training a dog is about teaching the dog what to do and how to do it the way you want them too. After that its all about holding the dog to that standard you taught him. Some dogs might need more explanation on certain things than others but its not breed specific. In fact, every single respected golden owner that successfully trains and runs their dogs in field trials has told me to train primarily with lab folks. every single one. IN fact a VERY VERY respected trialer told me one day to get a lab to train alongside my golden. She said she always has a lab along with her goldens. She said it helps to understand the golden better. She said our kinds of goldens are stinkers and are so smart they often pull the wool over our eyes and we don't even know it. The lab keeps the golden in check for us mentally! Ha! I would have to agree with her. I guess I just think that always saying that goldens are so different than labs is a crutch and is holding the breed back. People need to train their dogs on an individual basis or pick pros that train dogs on an individual basis. Most of the very good pros do that anyway.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> And I've seen PLENTY of cheaters of all breeds! .


This made me snort laugh. :grin2:


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Sorry it was pick on chessies and show labs day. 

There is all kinds of water. Stick ponds, peat bogs, ice cold mountain ponds, duck ponds, and tech ponds. Ponds with reeds from edge to edge. Ponds with clumps of grass. Shallow ponds, swimming ponds, ponds that are really lakes, lily pad ponds, ponds mowed to the edge, mucky edge ponds. And muskeg ponds. All I can say is get your dog into as many different kinds of water and you can. 

My dogs primarily swim in fast moving ice cold glacier fed creeks. They love letting themselves get swept down stream chasing sticks. They know how to work the water and get washed up on a shore and run the bank back to me. It’s cold it’s fast, and dogs that aren’t familiar with that kind of water freak out. People watch my dogs in awe. But my dogs are no different from other retrievers up here. Some of you might be more familiar with tech ponds. Those freak me out. All their fingers and islands and confusing layouts. when I’ve run my dogs on those tech ponds, I see their heads spin in confusion. 

Maybe we should share photos of water we’ve run our dogs on?


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Alaska7133 said:


> Maybe we should share photos of water we’ve run our dogs on?


 good idea, gives better prospective.


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

Extremely good post Shelby, you are so on point. I can relate from the water entry to the way they are trained and people saying dont push a Golden or he was too young to enter a Derby. I did it backwards and switched from Labs to Goldens. I won't go back even though I cringe at some of the breedings I see. But WOW what a right on post! People really need to read this and take it to heart.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I agree that a flashy water entry doesn't necessarily mean that the dog is better or more watery than the dog with a more subdued entry.


I agree. I think there's another factor too, it's strength of swimming stroke and speed. Some dogs are like my Lucy, subdued entry, just runs into the water without a leap. But swims so fast and so strongly. She is faster than Riot by a long shot. She barely shows any movement in the water she is so darn efficient. Riot has a big leap, but not as fast a swim. For a distance swim, Lucy would definitely get to their destination faster. Some dogs you see out there swimming and they almost look like they are drowning, flailing and getting nowhere fast. Even dogs that have been in the water a lot. I have a friend with an MH dog, and the darn dog looks terrible when he swims. He just barely gets the job done. I think dogs that are better put together physically, swim stronger and faster. Conditioning is also so important in swimming. But some dogs just aren't good swimmers!

For photos of ponds we run our dogs on up here, some of our ponds are man made. But not for the reason of tests/trials. Lots of our ponds were made by gold miners in decades past. Some of the ponds are on farms that are man made for water animals or retaining runoff. 

Pond #1 - run off pond on a buffalo/potato farm. Difficult pond for young dogs. With so many clumps of grass, it's very hard for the dogs to find the bird. The only saving grace is the high bank that gives the dogs a better view of where the bird falls. I've seen many dogs fail on this pond. Most dogs end up needing to be handled.
Pond #2 - this is actually a chain of lakes. The edge is muskeg and mush. This area is hard to run because the trees come to the water's edge virtually. So you usually run marks/blinds here from the water's edge, not far from the bank. The far bank would take hip waders to access. Muskeg is really weird stuff to walk on. It's floating vegetation that moves as you walk on it. Very awkward for the dogs. These ponds are not man made.
Pond #3 - same chain of lakes at another point as #2. Long stretches that you cannot stand up, or you'll be waste deep in muck, water, vegetation. Tough ponds for the dogs to swim in. Big swims too. The dog in the photo is still wading in the water this far from shore.
Pond #4 - Fairbanks man made pond by Army Corp of Engineers. It's just a retention pond that we use. Gravel bottom, no muck, big swims mostly. Hard to set up junior hunt tests due to the banks generally being so far away. This photo is a spaniel hunt test and just happens to be the only place on the pond where the bank is close.
Pond #5 - Turnagain Pass my favorite place. Some people won't run their dogs on these ponds, they say the water is too cold. The ponds were made by gold miners. The water is crystal clear and you can see every log and rock on the bottom. Saw a chessie almost drown during a field trial. He dove to the bottom to get a stick that was stuck on the bottom. It was deep and the dog refused to give up and come up for air. The owner almost waded in to get the dog, when the dog finally came up for air. Scared the heck out of us. Why that dog decided that stick on the bottom was more important than the duck, we'll never know. Sorry to say he didn't place in that field trial....
Pond #6 is Turnagain Pass again. Lovely ponds. Interesting how gold dredge ponds can become cool ponds to run your dog on.
Photo #7 - my drive to Turnagain Pass for a hunt test. Not bad eh? (That is the ocean)

A few years ago I went to central CA to run some hunt tests. I went on YouTube and found some hunt test videos on the grounds at that location. (Thanks YouTube!) It was so weird to see the dogs running through cactus and sagebrush. I'm really glad I looked it up so I could see what to expect.

I'd love to see other people post water where they run their dogs! Please share!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Just because I love this photo of Molly:


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I still love that photo of Molly!!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Best water avoidance technique : jumping over it


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

..........


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