# 8 month old Golden pup problems!! DESPERATE for help!!



## Lucey

Hello everybody,

I will try and keep this as short as possible. 

We have an 8 month old puppy called Harry. We have had him since he was 7 weeks old and bought him from a very respectable breeder. We have always had a few issues with him but recently his behaviour has become a lot worse. The main thing being his item aggression. He is obsessed with picking everything and ANYTHING up. And also EATING everything and anything. Since we first got him, we have constantly had to take things away (twigs, stones, tissue, knifes and forks, keys, wallets). We did this by telling him off and opening his mouth to take the item out (I've now been looking online and realise this is not the right way to do it!). We've even had to resort to putting a muzzle on him when he goes out into the garden. The main reason being is that he would eat flowers, stones, dirt.. anything. He ended up having around 5 upset stomaches within a matter of weeks. We saw this as a bit of a pain but nothing more. However recently, he has become VERY aggressive with it. Whenever he does pick up an item, he then growls the second we approach him, shows his teeth and hides his face. Last week this resulted in me getting very badly bitten  I'm so so so sad that he ended up biting me and I feel as if I have lost quite a bit of trust for him. I keep thinking now he has done it once, will he be more likely to do it again? I have been reading up online about item aggression and understand that you have to 'swap' things. The problem is that he is absolutly fine with the words 'drop' and 'leave' with his toys and anything that we have given him. It is ONLY when he picks something up that he shouldn't have. The other day he picked a button off one of his toys and he would not drop it. Not for a biscuit, not for anything! What do I do? He also doesn't just chew on these things, he swallows them. If I go near him, he immediately begins trying to swallow the item. I'm so sad because I feel as if he is becomming aggressive and he was always the sweetest, kindest puppy. Is it my fault that I have always taken everything away from him?? Someone said to us that it may be his age? And now he has bitten me once, will he do it again? Any advice would be appreciated!!!


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## RedDogs

All dogs have teeth, all dogs can bite.

I would recommend a consult with a board certified veterinary behaviorist. The fact he is trying to eat everything got my attention...while dogs can be very curious, dogs who are actually trying to consume non edible things (it's called "pica") can have underlying health problems that make them feel very very very hungry. A trainer or behavior consultant is not a vet and would not be able to address that aspect of the behavior.

As far as the resource guarding: This is not an uncommon problem, and you probably did make it worse in your attempt to make things better. I would recommend you purchase the book "Mine" by Jean donaldson and work step by step through all the exercises.

In the mean time, manage him closely, be sure things he should not have are removed from his environment. 

But it will help to address the resource guarding AND the potential for any underlying health problems.


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## Oaklys Dad

It sounds like you need to start practicing "Leave It" and "Drop". Start with love value (to him) items and trade him for a small high value treat. Always have a stash of treats (a treat pouch is handy for this). Practice every chance you get. You can also try hand feeding his meals so he learns that you are the Great Provider. It is a common phase in golden puppies.


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## cprcheetah

I would take him outside on a leash. If you haven't I would enroll him in a basic obedience class, instill the NILF (Nothing in Life is Free) method of training, and teach the leave it command. It will be hard, we had a similar problem with Shellie on walks she wanted to pick up everything (except without the aggression), so I kept a toy in my pocket and when I could tell she was going for something I gave her the toy instead to keep something in her mouth. Also teaching the "Leave it" command will help. Shellie now knows to leave it when I tell her too. He is resource guarding so you might want to look up ways to deal with this. The book suggested above will be a great help to you. Have you tried high value treats? Cheese, hot dogs, liver treats? Anything like that? That also helped with Shellie, she thinks the cat litter box is her 'snack' bar lately and I've been really working with her, she'll drop them for a dehydrated lamb lung treat.


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## tippykayak

It sounds like the way you've been reacting has taught him that these low-value items (stones, sticks, etc.) are actually high value. So now, even if you're not planning on grabbing his jaw and forcing him to give it up, your body language, stress, and voice are probably all pretty similar to when you were grabbing him. So he's reacting in that way. Growling hasn't worked, so he's moved to biting, which has worked, so yes, he'll do it again if he gets put in the same situation.

His age is definitely part of your problem too. They do get into a challenging mode at that age, and if you train through it successfully, the challenging behaviors typically tend to fade.

What I'd do is constantly practice a really fun game of give. He gets a fun toy, and if he brings it to you, he gets a treat and the original toy back again. All he has to do is let you have it for two seconds and he gets the toy back plus something else he likes (a fun voice from you, a special treat, another toy, etc.). It'll take about a hundred successful repetitions of the game in the controlled environment before you have any hope of that behavior holding up outdoors.

Once the game is doing beautifully indoors try playing it outdoors, but use a 10 foot line and sit someplace where he simply can't get to something dangerous (like a rock). Eventually, he should get bored and play the game with you. The behavior will probably fall apart once you change the setting, but it should come back together fairly quickly if he never gets a chance to grab a rock and get agitated. The idea of doing it outside, but still controlling the situation is to give the behavior a chance to break down and build back up in a setting that's more similar to the problem setting.

Try to figure out all the things you do when he picks up a rock (do you tense? use a particular voice? run at him?) and stop doing them. In fact, until you've established a new habit, you have to avoid letting the undesired situation happen at all. As much as I'd hate to tell you to keep the muzzle on him, you may have to. Every time he goes through the undesired reaction and/or ignores a command from you, he more deeply ingrains the bad habit. The trick is to prevent him from going through that pattern outdoors and begin establishing a strong new pattern indoors and move it outdoors once it's well-established.

If your new pattern breaks down in a new situation (once you're outdoors, once you take the muzzle off, etc.) simply go back a few steps until you have a 100% success rate again and then move forward more slowly.

This problem is totally manageable. What you have is an insecure dog who feels he's defending something important. If he can relearn that people don't take away important stuff but are rather constantly producing wonderful stuff and very rarely take anything away, you'll be fine. If 99/100 times, you ask for something, he gives it, and he gets something wonderful in addition to getting the object back, that 1/100 times you have to keep the thing won't be a problem.

Does he fetch? It can be a great way to teach a dog that handing off an object results in a ton of fun and a return of the object.

All that said, at this point, I'd probably get a professional behaviorist on board, because some bad habits are already pretty ingrained. Also, there could be an underlying health issue (like hypothyroid) that contributes to feelings of hunger and/or aggression, so the vet might be the first place to start. Also, if the breeder is truly respectable, he or she should be a major resource for you. Have you conferred with the breeder yet?


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## Selli-Belle

Make sure when you are teach him to trade, you use a really high value treat. Examples are small pieces of fresh chicken, slices of hot dogs or sausages, stinky cheese, things he does not get at other times. Regular biscuits are not special enough.

Good Luck.


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## tippykayak

PS - when you say "badly bitten" do you mean he bit you hard and broke the skin? Did he hold on for more than a moment? Did he bite hard several times very quickly in a row? The bite itself can give you some info if you know how to interpret it.


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## iansgran

Sounds like you are getting some excellent advice. My Jaro is 11 months and has for several months been in that pick everything up outside and run away with it stage. I do get him to trade with high value treats--lately oddly enough that has been plain bread, but in the past we used good cheese, hot dogs, puperoni, chicken.


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## hotel4dogs

If you got him from a respected breeder, please call the breeder right away and get information on how to handle this. The breeder needs to know that you are having this problem, and good breeders are more than happy to help you sort it out.


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## Lucey

I just want to say THANK YOU everyone for your replies!!! Everyone has been so so so helpful.

We have started straight away on swapping low value items for high value items. I have also looked up 'resource guarding' online and printed off some great information. 

One of Harry's favourite things is toilet paper. Yesterday I 'accidently' dropped some on the floor. He of course lunged at it and started chewing. I pulled out some special treats from my pocket, said 'drop' and he IMMEDIATELY dropped all of the tissue from his mouth. Something which I NEVER thought he would do!! So am very very pleased with that progress. 

However saying that, this morning we have had a big issue with a banana skin. My brother was eating a banana and accidently left the skin on the side. By the time Harry had walked into the room and clocked it, it was too late for my brother to do anything. The only thing I had with me was his favourite biscuits, I told him to drop as calmly as possible (he was REALLY eating that banana skin quite scarily), he stopped and looked at the biscuit, thought about it, but decided the banana was better!! By the time I had run to the kitchen to try to get some cheese etc.. it was too late and the WHOLE banana skin was gone. So now worried sick about that?

I think his worse habit through all of this is that as soon as we approach him, whatever he has in his mouth he will try and chew as quickly as he possibly can. I'm so sure this is because the amount of times we have taken things away and also the way we used to do it. I have stood at the doorway hiding before while he has had something that he shouldn't and he has been chewing it quite calmly. The second I walk into the room... He tries chewing the item as fast as he possibly can. I think in his head, he feels as if this is the ONLY way that he won't have the item taken away (by swallowing it).


Another point to make is that since the day we have had him, he has always picked things up he shouldn't. Till around a month ago, he would quite happily let us take things from him (he would get a bit moany about it but NEVER growled or showed his teeth etc). This aggression only started around a month ago. I think he has just got completly fed up with having things taken away and it has progressed in this sad way . 

Tippykayak - When he bit me I think it was mainly my fault. He had the item in his mouth. I walked into the room. He froze and started growling. I then walked right over to him and told him in a stern voice to 'drop'. He continued growling and trying to chew the item as fast as he could. He's never ever got so worked up as he was at that point and the growling and teeth baring was the worst I have ever seen. That should have told me to not approach him. But I did. I put my hand right near him face and he didn't even think about it, he just bit. It was a very quick bite, just the once. Literally teeth down, teeth up! He didn't hold on, it was over in a second. But yes it did pierce the skin and there was a lot of blood. But the second he had done it, he backed away and looked terrified. What does this mean?


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## momtoMax

The banana skin shouldn't hurt him. 

I have a friend who has a dog that when she gets away, sees my friends attempts to get to her come to her as a game. Add to that problem, she gets out a lot on the main street. She is really upset and wants to change that behavior which at this point, is going to be tough to do. Sounds like your problem about trying to eat it fast has become habit. Knowing that approaching your dog is going to set off that behavior, I suggest that you stop your behavior and over a long enough time doing all the other training, perhaps this will become a thing of the past but I think it would take a while.

One important thing I learned was that when your dog does something you really like, you should praise him for around 20 seconds. A 3 to 5 second good boy cuddle isn't really long enough. So work that into whatever you are doing and see if that helps as well.

Sorry to hear about the bite - that is very hard to deal with. Just remembering that he is a teenager might help a bit but this behavior definitely needs to be addressed. Good luck with that!


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## elly

Hi,
Another Uk'er here!
Sorry you are having such worries. My pup is 9 and a half months old, a male too and we have had to be very consistent and determined with our training too. Just like teenagers, they go through a bratty stage and just as you have pinpointed, it can be around now, for you it seemed to start highlighting a month ago. To be honest the picking up and eating things he shouldnt are all normal, guarding them is too if they feel confronted and threatened as he did, its just that you didnt know how to train him and correct him correctly to bring out the best in him, the concerns now are its getting out of hand and needs sorting as its overlapping into the brattiness/adolescence and the 2 combined in a heavyweight dog isnt good. My pup weighs about 78lbs now, how big is Harry? Are you North South East or West? Itd be great if we were near!Soooo..contntd..


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## elly

You have been given great advice here, the high value treat/reward system is great, the fact you only had a biscuit to offer and it failed compared to it working with a high value one yesterday is absolute proof for you so make sure you are ALWAYS equipped. Have pots of them everywhere so you need never be caught out anywhere. I have them at the bottom of the stairs out of his reach so when I come down in the morning when hes already roaming as others are up before me and hes been walked I can put something in my pocket before he greets me or gets or does something he shouldnt that I have to correct or tries to jump up saying 'good morning'! This has to be consistent though with ALL the family and thats the battle sometimes, for everyone to stay calm and everyone to have high value treats at hand before they try a swap and command. Its only when this becomes the norm to him on an ongoing basis that he will trust and expect and change and you will trust him to react positively. There are people here with far more experieince than I but please get some great treats, if you have pets at home nearby they do fishmongers fish treats, worth the money, also dried duck strips! I have P M'ed you too.


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## Griffyn'sMom

Oh my! He needs to learn his manners for sure. If you can get him to a proper trainer they will help you to teach him to "wait" for permission before he takes anything. 6-8 months old is a pescky trial/teenage stage as well so you are getting the full whollop.

NILIF is perfect for this dog. He has to do something for you before he gets anything which will teach him to wait for permission. He must always sit and watch for your command before he can take it.

Honestly, I can drop a piece of bacon on the floor and though tempted, Griff won't touch it unless I say OK. Sometimes I do need to remind him to "leave it" or "wait" if it is something that rolls right in front of him.

I'm so glad that he is responding to the trade. That's a step in the right direction. Hang in there and be consistant. He's developed a habit now which will be difficult to break but praise, praise, praise when he does it right!


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## tippykayak

Lucey said:


> I just want to say THANK YOU everyone for your replies!!! Everyone has been so so so helpful.
> 
> We have started straight away on swapping low value items for high value items. I have also looked up 'resource guarding' online and printed off some great information.
> 
> One of Harry's favourite things is toilet paper. Yesterday I 'accidently' dropped some on the floor. He of course lunged at it and started chewing. I pulled out some special treats from my pocket, said 'drop' and he IMMEDIATELY dropped all of the tissue from his mouth. Something which I NEVER thought he would do!! So am very very pleased with that progress.
> 
> However saying that, this morning we have had a big issue with a banana skin. My brother was eating a banana and accidently left the skin on the side. By the time Harry had walked into the room and clocked it, it was too late for my brother to do anything. The only thing I had with me was his favourite biscuits, I told him to drop as calmly as possible (he was REALLY eating that banana skin quite scarily), he stopped and looked at the biscuit, thought about it, but decided the banana was better!! By the time I had run to the kitchen to try to get some cheese etc.. it was too late and the WHOLE banana skin was gone. So now worried sick about that?
> 
> I think his worse habit through all of this is that as soon as we approach him, whatever he has in his mouth he will try and chew as quickly as he possibly can. I'm so sure this is because the amount of times we have taken things away and also the way we used to do it. I have stood at the doorway hiding before while he has had something that he shouldn't and he has been chewing it quite calmly. The second I walk into the room... He tries chewing the item as fast as he possibly can. I think in his head, he feels as if this is the ONLY way that he won't have the item taken away (by swallowing it).
> 
> 
> Another point to make is that since the day we have had him, he has always picked things up he shouldn't. Till around a month ago, he would quite happily let us take things from him (he would get a bit moany about it but NEVER growled or showed his teeth etc). This aggression only started around a month ago. I think he has just got completly fed up with having things taken away and it has progressed in this sad way .
> 
> Tippykayak - When he bit me I think it was mainly my fault. He had the item in his mouth. I walked into the room. He froze and started growling. I then walked right over to him and told him in a stern voice to 'drop'. He continued growling and trying to chew the item as fast as he could. He's never ever got so worked up as he was at that point and the growling and teeth baring was the worst I have ever seen. That should have told me to not approach him. But I did. I put my hand right near him face and he didn't even think about it, he just bit. It was a very quick bite, just the once. Literally teeth down, teeth up! He didn't hold on, it was over in a second. But yes it did pierce the skin and there was a lot of blood. But the second he had done it, he backed away and looked terrified. What does this mean?


One thing to work on is establishing the habit strongly in a controlled situation so the HABIT makes him drop, not the treat you're showing him. In fact, as soon as you can, you want to practice a game where he drops an item _before_ he sees that you have a treat, and the treat comes out of nowhere. That's why repetition of successful behavior is so important. The worst things, the things you absolutely MUST get away from him, may be too interesting to bribe him for. So you don't want to encourage him to evaluate what he has in his mouth and what you have in your hand and choose his favorite. 

A strong habit, however, can go up against just about anything and win. So at least 20 times a day, you need to be teaching him to bring you something, and then you need to produce a reward out of nowhere. Momtomax made a great point: long, interesting rewards are an important part of a reinforcement schedule. Sometimes he gets a cookie and a "good boy!" Sometimes he gets six or eight small treats in a row and a "party" (scratching his favorite spot for 20-30 seconds, playing around with him, etc.).

You want to create a situation where the dog thinks giving stuff to you will result in something fun, but you don't want him to know what it might be. And that has to happen over and over and over and over again so his mind learns the pattern very firmly. Until you have that firm pattern, you have no hope of getting something like a banana peel away from him without a confrontation.

With hundreds of successful repetitions of the behavior, you'll eventually get into a situation where your dog LOVES to hand you something, even if that something is disgustingly wonderful, because his habits are deeply ingrained. He won't be evaluating whether the gross thing is better than what you have; he'll hand it to you because that's just what happens when you say "give!" The rewards help confirm the desired behavior on a deep level. But if you use them as the motivator for the behavior each time, you're not building the habit of obedience but rather the habit of comparing the treat to what he has in his mouth already.

Also, stop approaching him for trades. Every single thing that you do that sets off the undesired emotional progression has to stop while you retrain. You have to manage him with great care so you're not in a position where you HAVE to get something from him but can't afford to do it the right way. In fact, when you are working on the "give" behavior, try moving away from him. It should trigger a different instinct in him to chase you, and you can use that to your advantage. You want him to come to you and volunteer to give up the item. 

As far as the bite, I'm not an expert in dog behavior, but my understanding is that a quick bite, even if it's hard, is typical of a defensive gut reaction, not an act of sustained aggression. Lots of quick, damaging bites in a row, or biting down and holding on are much, much worse.

I once had my thumbnail taken off by a Golden who was simply panicked that I was going to hurt him (his family had misused a shock collar on him, and I didn't understand the history). I grabbed his collar and got one hard defensive bite from him. That bite was not indicative of his real temperament, and he looked really freaked out afterwards. So I would guess that your pup was scared of losing something that felt vital and was defending it, but that he is definitely not seeking to fight.


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## tippykayak

I do sort of disagree a bit with the "trade" approach. I worry that you'll teach the dog to evaluate your cookie vs. what he has in his mouth, and the thing in his mouth is often going to be more powerful than whatever you have.

If you enter into a bribing pattern, I think you'll find that even the highest value treat is pretty limited, since its value is largely determined by proximity, smell, and feel; the thing in his mouth is going to be stronger automatically, since it's already in his mouth. You'll also end up in the awful situation of finding yourself cookieless at the worst possible moments.

I'd rather see you start with low value items like toys, and even if you have to initially teach the behavior by showing a treat, I think you should transition as quickly as possible to getting the behavior first and then producing the treat. For example, he has a toy. You produce a cookie. He drops the toy. You say "leave it!" then "good boy!" and give him the cookie and some pets. Once he's done this a dozen times, you try saying "leave it!" without showing the cookie. If he drops the toy, produce the cookie and say "good boy!" and give affection. If not, go back to the first step and do it for longer, then move forward again.

Practice that "leave it"-drop-treat-pet pattern a hundred times. Make it a super fun game that you play together. You can even teach him to put the thing in your hand and use a "give" command instead of "leave it" (which is what we like to do, since we want the "give" to be the basis for fetching). 

I practice this regularly with our dogs, even though they're really good at it now. If Jax has a toy and comes over for attention, I'll put my hand on the free end of it and say "give!" He lets go, I hold it for a second and put it back in his mouth with a big "good boy!" and lots of high-energy petting. Now, if he picks up even the most exciting thing in the world (like a dead bird), he'll prance on over and give it to me, assuming he'll get it back a second later. Since 99/100 times he does, it doesn't break his habit that 1/100 times I keep the thing.

I truly believe that a dog's habit is the strongest behavioral force you can use. There's no humane amount of pain and no treat in the world that can go up against a dog's strongest instincts. But a reinforced habit can be put up against almost anything and still win.


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## Braccarius

I actually had a food aggressive Wheaten Terrier this weekend that had snapped at / bit the owner. Believe it or not, I spoke with RedDogs on chat and she gave me a few helpful idea's that I started with and within about an hour he was more than happy to spit out a yummy marrowbone for the sausage chunks I was feeding him. Of course he got diarreah afterward because he ate like 3 sausages, but at least now the owner can approach him and "trade" before he reacts.

If he is apt to grab things on the ground you cannot be caught with low-value items. The highest value most convenient treats I've found are sausages. You can even microwave away a lot of the water if needed. I cut them up to about the size of a dime and microwaved them on high for a bit to dry them out a zing. If he is out of his crate, you should always have higher value treats than anything he can get into. A banana peel is worth more than your standard dog bisquit, but sausages (and some cheeses) are worth more than a banana peel. You have to one up him...


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## elly

I agree with you both in part and in the situation where you are training a dog that hasnt got very bad old habits I think not using trades is a good idea but in this situation where we are dealing with what seems to be a strong minded and I suspect large dog as english males tend to be together with a worried family it seems a good start and I have to say it works for us and when we dont have trades he will still now drop and behave most of the time but hes also in bratty stage so I always like to have tools with me and as I dont have strength on my side for health reasons I also cannot have him jump up so it works for that too as distraction. I think its a tool for a change of trust in Lucys case which has to start somewhere on both sides and I think his stomach will be a good starting point for now together with fun and praise until they reach a point when fun and praise will be enough half the time as it is here. I think he would have to see it but the idea of him coming after her for it seems good if hes dropped the item he shouldnt have. I may try that too!


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## Selli-Belle

elly said:


> Hi,
> Just like teenagers, they go through a bratty stage and just as you have pinpointed, it can be around now, for you it seemed to start highlighting a month ago. To be honest the picking up and eating things he shouldnt are all normal, guarding them is too if they feel confronted and threatened as he did, its just that you didnt know how to train him and correct him correctly to bring out the best in him, the concerns now are its getting out of hand and needs sorting as its overlapping into the brattiness/adolescence and the 2 combined in a heavyweight dog isnt good.


I don't want to seem picky here, but resource guarding is not normal for a Golden with a proper temperament. It can be trained into a dog, but good breeding should always eliminate any Golden who shows signs of resource guarding. Remember, the original job of a Golden was to happily retrieve very high value dead birds and other game and happily give them to their handler. Any dog who guarded their bird was a problem and not bred.


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## amandanmaggie

Lucey said:


> I just want to say THANK YOU everyone for your replies!!! Everyone has been so so so helpful.
> 
> We have started straight away on swapping low value items for high value items. I have also looked up 'resource guarding' online and printed off some great information.
> 
> One of Harry's favourite things is toilet paper. Yesterday I 'accidently' dropped some on the floor. He of course lunged at it and started chewing. I pulled out some special treats from my pocket, said 'drop' and he IMMEDIATELY dropped all of the tissue from his mouth. Something which I NEVER thought he would do!! So am very very pleased with that progress.
> 
> However saying that, this morning we have had a big issue with a banana skin. My brother was eating a banana and accidently left the skin on the side. By the time Harry had walked into the room and clocked it, it was too late for my brother to do anything. The only thing I had with me was his favourite biscuits, I told him to drop as calmly as possible (he was REALLY eating that banana skin quite scarily), he stopped and looked at the biscuit, thought about it, but decided the banana was better!! By the time I had run to the kitchen to try to get some cheese etc.. it was too late and the WHOLE banana skin was gone. So now worried sick about that?
> 
> I think his worse habit through all of this is that as soon as we approach him, whatever he has in his mouth he will try and chew as quickly as he possibly can. I'm so sure this is because the amount of times we have taken things away and also the way we used to do it. I have stood at the doorway hiding before while he has had something that he shouldn't and he has been chewing it quite calmly. The second I walk into the room... He tries chewing the item as fast as he possibly can. I think in his head, he feels as if this is the ONLY way that he won't have the item taken away (by swallowing it).
> 
> 
> Another point to make is that since the day we have had him, he has always picked things up he shouldn't. Till around a month ago, he would quite happily let us take things from him (he would get a bit moany about it but NEVER growled or showed his teeth etc). This aggression only started around a month ago. I think he has just got completly fed up with having things taken away and it has progressed in this sad way .
> 
> Tippykayak - When he bit me I think it was mainly my fault. He had the item in his mouth. I walked into the room. He froze and started growling. I then walked right over to him and told him in a stern voice to 'drop'. He continued growling and trying to chew the item as fast as he could. He's never ever got so worked up as he was at that point and the growling and teeth baring was the worst I have ever seen. That should have told me to not approach him. But I did. I put my hand right near him face and he didn't even think about it, he just bit. It was a very quick bite, just the once. Literally teeth down, teeth up! He didn't hold on, it was over in a second. But yes it did pierce the skin and there was a lot of blood. But the second he had done it, he backed away and looked terrified. What does this mean?


The aggression is something that you might want to see a behavioral specialist about. Just keep watching him and see if he does it again. My Maggie does the same thing with objects, except for the growling part; she picks EVERYTHING up. She doesn't always try to eat them, but she will put them in her mouth. I rescued her 2 months ago, when she was 7 months, and for the first month or so, she was REALLY bad about taking something and running away from me. Some ladies on this forum gave me the suggestion of using teats to get her to drop it, and it worked! She actually started bringing me what she picked up in order to get a treat, and I didn't have to try to chase her down and open her mouth to get it out. She's pretty good at dropping it. My only challenge, now, is getting her to "leave" something. She will pick it up, anyway, when I say "leave it", but then she drops it when I say," Drop it." Crazy puppy!


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## elly

> I don't want to seem picky here, but resource guarding is not normal for a Golden with a proper temperament. It can be trained into a dog, but good breeding should always eliminate any Golden who shows signs of resource guarding. Remember, the original job of a Golden was to happily retrieve very high value dead birds and other game and happily give them to their handler. Any dog who guarded their bird was a problem and not bred.


Fair enough but this is beyond good or bad breeding, its about helping this family with a puppy they have got and the guarding hes presenting with appears to be imo something hes practically been trained into as hes been fearful of having everything hes felt important and vital to him as being threatened and taken and hes been confronted in a stressful way in his eyes.


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## solinvictus

What I think needs to be really stressed here is that nothing (NOTHING) can be left out in the dogs reach. The humans have to put a major effort into changing themselves so that they have the time to retrain the dog. The dog needs to be prevented from being able to get anything he feels is high value. So, if the humans (family members, people in the home) cannot keep high value items safely away from the dog the dog needs to be managed by being crated or gated away from those areas not safe for him until they are safe. 
Every time the dog gets something high valued to him think of it that he just got 100 points. Every practice (training give or drop it or leave it) gives you 3 points. So how many 3 points do you need to at least break even against his 100 point habit? 33 or more successful practice training moments may make up for the one 100 point habit. How many 100 point habits has he had up to this point. It is going to take a lot of successful repetition (training) to change his mind set and every time you let him get that 100 points you make that training time longer.


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## elly

Really well put, thats brilliantly explained and so right, yes. And the whole familly must be consistent and united. Great points, especially about the multiple points, thanks, I am going to show that to my OH who often thinks Rome must have been built in a day I'm sure! :uhoh:


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## Selli-Belle

elly said:


> Fair enough but this is beyond good or bad breeding, its about helping this family with a puppy they have got and the guarding hes presenting with appears to be imo something hes practically been trained into as hes been fearful of having everything hes felt important and vital to him as being threatened and taken and hes been confronted in a stressful way in his eyes.


I agree completely. I just worry that if we start saying that resource guarding is normal in Goldens some less than knowledgeable (or reputable) breeders will use that as an excuse to breed known resource guarders.


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## elly

> I agree completely. I just worry that if we start saying that resource guarding is normal in Goldens some less than knowledgeable (or reputable) breeders will use that as an excuse to breed known resource guarders.


Of course I wouldnt want that to happen either but if you go back to what i oroginally said..in fact heres the quote



> guarding them is too if they feel confronted and threatened as he did, its just that you didnt know how to train him and correct him correctly to bring out the best in him,


you can see I said if they feel threatened and confronted and that is true of any animal or even a human, perhaps I should hve said that too, if you feel cornered or threatened you will fight for yourself or what you feel if rightfully yours. I wasnt saying its normal for G R's, just that it is a normal reactive behaviour given the situation that the human had created and as someone else has rightly said, the humans need to change their behaviour/actions, this poor chap has lost trust/goodwill and is out for what he can get and keep no matter what. It will be a win win situation here as both parties are going to be happier!


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## Lucey

Thank you everyone so much for your fantastic advice!

I've been training so hard with him. I've also bought some treats that I know he will love and have put pots of treats in every room in the house so I never get caught out.

One thing I'm finding is that at the moment, I am doing all the practising with his toys. He doesn't seem to be too bothered about toys and will 'drop' and 'leave' on command without ANY problem. He always has done. He has never become aggressive over something like a toy. The only things he becomes aggressive with are items that he shouldn't have/are not his. So I'm thinking should I be doing things like knocking a magazine down or leaving something on the floor and then seeing how he reacts to the commands and the trades? Or should I stick with trading his toys for the time being and then maybe move onto the items that he would become aggressive over?

Another thing is that he doesn't seem to be that interested when I trade him for things like another toy, a good back scratch (something that he normally loves!), a hell of a lot of fuss etc. He only seems to be extremely happy and extremely likely to drop things when he knows treats are involved. Is this a problem always using treats? He is a very food focused dog. Is it essential to be mixing up the trades a bit more e.g one time give him a treat, next time a back scratch etc?

I'm so upset and angry with myself for letting it get to the point where he bit me to realise that we have been handling the situation completly wrong. We did take him to puppy school classes from around the ages of 4-6 months and I remember talking to the trainer and telling her that Harry seems to be picking EVERYTHING and ANYTHING up and wanting to chew or eat it. She said that it was a typical retriever trait and that the way to deal with it was to be firm, tell him NO and take the item away. Hence what we have been doing ever since. We have also taken him to the vets quite a few times (because he has eaten something in the garden that he shouldn't and has ended up with upset stomaches!) and we have bought it up with the vet. She again told us that its a typical puppy problem and will dissapear over time. She only recommended keeping things out of his reach. We have never been told about resource guarding or that we can't just take, take, take from him. I wish the second he started being aggressive, I had looked into it more.

Its a very hard situation because it seems to be so specific. He's fine with dropping his toys for us. He's absolutly fine with his meal times. We can stroke him while he eats, put our hand in the bowl, even take the bowl away if we wish. It is only when he has a random item that he shouldn't. We try to make sure everything is out of his reach but there is always a time when somehow, somewhere he manages to pick an item up. He is also a very very big doggy so it is not easy keeping everything away from him. For example he can now put his head into the kitchen sink! So we can never leave any knifes, forks, dishcloths etc in there. He does love a dishcloth.

Elly- I can't seem to find where my private messages are, I'm a bit useless with all this computer stuff! We are from the South East- Kent.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all your tips! I wish I had found this website earlier!


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## mustluvgoldens

Since Harry seems to like eating things that just might not pass thru him the way they should, I advise the following;

1. Keep 4-6 cans of Science Diet RD high fiber weight loss formula, on hand. It's sticky, yucky and pulls crap out of dogs. Stinks too. Hate this food and it's just totally nasty but works.
2. Keep a loaf of white bread in the freezer. spread liberally with plain, not chunky, peanut butter. chunky will do in an ER. It also sticks to whatever is inside and helps pass it.
3. Immediately cook white rice and over cook it to a sticky pulp. Refridgerate so that it becomes even stickier. Also pulls crap out of the dog. Freeze some in freezer bags for quick thaw and ER's.

These are all tips from my vet and I've had to resort to them to "rescue" washcloths, parts of socks, leaves, sticks, whatever. 

As for the agression, you must establish that you are the alpha and not him. One of my dogs used to take my space in bed if I got out in the middle of the night and then growl and snap at me if I tried to make him move back out of my spot. I grabbed him by the throat with my hand in a claw and snarled back at him and also did the Ceasar hiss thing. I'm not much on doing that but it stopped my 78 pound 2 yr old boy in his tracks and he did not challenge me ever again. Not sure how experienced you are in doing something like that. Not for the fainthearted and you need to really know your dog. I knew mine was bluffing me cause he was a huge wimp and let his ancient sissy (10 yrs older) take toys and food out of his mouth. Good luck and get a trainer too!


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## Sally's Mom

I have a client who created resource guarding in her cocker by being firm and demanding he spit everything out of his mouth. He has bitten her numerous times. I went to a seminar by Dr. Nicholas Dodman several years ago. His point was that if it is something that won't harm the dog(paper towel or napkin as examples) don't turn it into an issue.....I have always taught my dogs from the get go, to bring me foreign objects that they have in their mouths. That includes dead chipmunks from under the wood pile, tea towels and pot holders counter surfed form the counter tops, etc. Initially, when I was teaching them, I always had a high value treat to exchange for the item. Now, it is hard wired and they just do it. One of the technicians that I work with has one of my pups. She fishes EVERYTHING out of the dog's mouth. Consequently, the dog has learned to read her mom's signals and just tries to eat the foreign object faster. When she has stayed with me, I had no problems with her being a Hoover. But I also have 7 of her relatives that distract her.

Get the pup into training.. both classes and one on one would help. It just sounds like your pup needs to have the boundaries set with someone teaching you the correct way to do it.


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## elly

Hi again,
Look to the right top of your screen and you will see welcome Lucey, and under there it will tell you how many private messages you have, click on it and there you are. Or click on your name and it takes you to your profile etc. 
One of the things to consider too is that your whole reaction and body language will be different when he has something he shoudnt have to when he has something hes allowed and therefore his reaction will also be very different...i.e. 'chomp chomp gulp gulp let me get this down my mouth and away from Mum as fast as possible as its mine and shes not going to have it!' :uhoh:
I know others will say differently but right now, I would just work with the foody rewards as they are what he responds to and what you get results from and what you both need right now is to earn each othes trust again and to set new rules. Everything else can start to follow once that happens but you have to go for high value and if toys and cheery cheery isnt high value in his eyes that go for food but make sure its really tasty and that he will drop anything in exchange for whatever you have picked. However, you need to be really quick and give the reward the moment the item is dropped and do cheery cheery at the same time as its dropped and the food is given so its all associated with the good behaviour hes just shown. It is a shame you didnt know and no-one told you when you asked but dont dwell on it, use your energy to put it right. Youre here now and we are glad you found us. :yipee: Theres great ideas in this thread and really knowledgeable people, I've learned a lot, pick what applies to your situation, your dog and keep us posted!


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## FlyingQuizini

Selli-Belle said:


> I don't want to seem picky here, but resource guarding is not normal for a Golden with a proper temperament. It can be trained into a dog, but good breeding should always eliminate any Golden who shows signs of resource guarding. Remember, the original job of a Golden was to happily retrieve very high value dead birds and other game and happily give them to their handler. Any dog who guarded their bird was a problem and not bred.


This is true -- BUT -- you'd be amazed how quickly you can create a resource guarder under the right circumstances. Poor management (i.e., having a puppy and keeping lots of inappropriate things where puppy can reach them) and constantly lifting things off the dog w/o any type of trade or reinforcement for relinquishment can very easily create guarding. Imagine a puppy in a house with kids' toys plus the common household items puppies naturally pick up? You could have 30-50 repetitions a day of someone lifting things off the dog.


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## Lucey

Elly- I got your message but it won't let me reply! It says I have to have posted at least 15 times on this site before I can send private messages. Would you be able to PM me your e-mail address so I can reply to you that way?


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## elly

I have done, look forward to hearing from you.


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## Mssjnnfer

You got some great advice in here and I hope it all works out for you! Please, however, do not try this. I promise you it won't work and will probably make everything worse. 



mustluvgoldens said:


> As for the agression, you must establish that you are the alpha and not him. One of my dogs used to take my space in bed if I got out in the middle of the night and then growl and snap at me if I tried to make him move back out of my spot. I grabbed him by the throat with my hand in a claw and snarled back at him and also did the Ceasar hiss thing. I'm not much on doing that but it stopped my 78 pound 2 yr old boy in his tracks and he did not challenge me ever again. Not sure how experienced you are in doing something like that. Not for the fainthearted and you need to really know your dog. I knew mine was bluffing me cause he was a huge wimp and let his ancient sissy (10 yrs older) take toys and food out of his mouth. Good luck and get a trainer too!


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## Charliethree

I would definitely NOT recommend you 'attack' your dog in any form - you are asking to get bit and it puts the dog on the defensive -he will fear being 'attacked' again and now you are 'dangerous and unpredictable' and that will add to your problem. Work with him using those high value treats and lots of praise, however long it takes, until you get a good solid and immediate response. After that you can slowly work at substituting other things, just pets and praise, and a lower value treat but intermittently give him that high value treat, to keep him thinking about when it will arrive.


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## Tanyac

Sally's Mom said:


> I have a client who created resource guarding in her cocker by being firm and demanding he spit everything out of his mouth. He has bitten her numerous times. I went to a seminar by Dr. Nicholas Dodman several years ago. His point was that if it is something that won't harm the dog(paper towel or napkin as examples) don't turn it into an issue.....I have always taught my dogs from the get go, to bring me foreign objects that they have in their mouths. That includes dead chipmunks from under the wood pile, tea towels and pot holders counter surfed form the counter tops, etc. Initially, when I was teaching them, I always had a high value treat to exchange for the item. Now, it is hard wired and they just do it. One of the technicians that I work with has one of my pups. She fishes EVERYTHING out of the dog's mouth. Consequently, the dog has learned to read her mom's signals and just tries to eat the foreign object faster. When she has stayed with me, I had no problems with her being a Hoover. But I also have 7 of her relatives that distract her.


:appl: THANK YOU Sally's Mom for this point. This was what sprang to mind as I was reading through this thread. I would suggest that we all pick our battles when dealing with a problem such as this. This puppy has come to the conclusion that ALL objects are high value. Always pick your battles!

To the OP, I am so sorry that your situation has resulted in an injury, but please have faith, it can be turned around. This is a fantastic Forum, you have definitely come to the right place .

I have a pup here, almost 7 months old, who is like a flippin' hoover when we're out and about. She'll scoop up leaves, crisp packets, sweet wrappers, and goes along merrily holding it all in her mouth (a sight to be seen . As none of it will particularly do any harm, and once we get to where we're going, the stuff gets spat out and she'll get on with her walk, I don't bother to take the "things" out of her mouth. Goldens are bred to carry and retrieve, so this is a natural instinct.

As you've identified, getting every last thing from your puppy's mouth in retrospect was the wrong thing to do. As others have said, try to manage your environment as best you can. If you have to, make a makeshift fence using wire fencing around your borders in the garden to physically stop him diggin there & chewing up stuff. Go to the garden centre and check whether any of your garden plants/shrubs are toxic. If they are, create a physical barrier or take them away altogether! Far better to remove than to always be on edge just in case he should have a sneaky chew!

We had a litter of puppies last year, and when they were outside in the garden, they had access to pea gravel. You may all think they were having a good old munch on the stuff, but none did. It's important to remember that puppies explore absolutley EVERYTHING with their mouths, especially such an orally fixated breed as the Golden Retriever. Pups will pick up stones and anything else they can to "test" it. Of course some dogs have a habit of swallowing stuff, but in my experience, if you don't make too much of a fuss, they'll generally spit it out after a while.

Problems arise, as in this case, where the new owners fear that their puppy is going to swallow all that they are "testing", and think they must remove it. Of course ANY dog can become defensive if this happens all the time. I don't think it has any bearing on good temperament - You've got to remember that to the puppy everything is interesting (thus needing to manage the environment) and if you stop them constantly, you're going to eventually cause them to be defensive.

Good luck, it sounds like you're making progress already. I hope you stick around, we would love to see pictures...

(Hi from another member from the UK, over in the West Country, but we have a few in your neck of the woods)


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## kerry

Hi, I will keep it short as lots of very experienced people have given advice. Just wanted to day that , on the advice of the same people I bought the Jean Donaldson book and it is fantastic.


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## tippykayak

mustluvgoldens said:


> As for the agression, you must establish that you are the alpha and not him. One of my dogs used to take my space in bed if I got out in the middle of the night and then growl and snap at me if I tried to make him move back out of my spot. I grabbed him by the throat with my hand in a claw and snarled back at him and also did the Ceasar hiss thing. I'm not much on doing that but it stopped my 78 pound 2 yr old boy in his tracks and he did not challenge me ever again. Not sure how experienced you are in doing something like that. Not for the fainthearted and you need to really know your dog. I knew mine was bluffing me cause he was a huge wimp and let his ancient sissy (10 yrs older) take toys and food out of his mouth. Good luck and get a trainer too!


I'm sorry, but I have to speak out very strongly about the downsides of this idea. If you physically intimidate a dog with fear-based aggression, you can make the aggression far, far worse, and you might even be attacked by the dog. The OP was already bitten by the dog, just for trying to take something from the dog's mouth. If she grabs the dog to intimidate him, she could be badly injured.

I wouldn't recommend this approach even for a bratty pup who wasn't fearful at all, but in the situation described in this thread, the dog could bite the OP very, very badly.


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## Selli-Belle

elly said:


> Of course I wouldnt want that to happen either but if you go back to what i oroginally said..in fact heres the quote
> 
> 
> 
> you can see I said if they feel threatened and confronted and that is true of any animal or even a human, perhaps I should hve said that too, if you feel cornered or threatened you will fight for yourself or what you feel if rightfully yours. I wasnt saying its normal for G R's, just that it is a normal reactive behaviour given the situation that the human had created and as someone else has rightly said, the humans need to change their behaviour/actions, this poor chap has lost trust/goodwill and is out for what he can get and keep no matter what. It will be a win win situation here as both parties are going to be happier!


I agree. Not looking to argue, had enough of that.


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## Deb_Bayne

My puppy, Bayne, likes to pick up everything too on our walks. He picks up sticks, stones, pinecones anything he finds. Even some garbage that just peeked out from the melting snow. I am so afraid he will eat the pinecone or accidently swallow it since some of them are extremely small. 

The message I'm getting from this post is to just let him pick up all this stuff and trust that he will just spit it out. I do not want to create a puppy that guards his stuff. He is now at the point where he won't drop it, so thanks for the 'high value treats' suggestions I'll definitely start this method.


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## Sally's Mom

The message isn't to trust that he will spit it out. The message is to train him to bring things to your hand, initially, by big rewards. The other message is to realize that a leaf or a napkin or someting similar won't harm him, so don't make those things issues. As I said previously, mine have been taught to bring me foreign objects. So when Emmy countersurfs a tea towel and I am sitting at the computer, she brings it to me. The other night, Basil found a penny on the floor and she brought it to me. Coins are extremely toxic. I don't know how the coin got on the floor, but she knew to bring it to me.


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