# Looking for American Golden male puppy



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Please do not use the term "American golden." There is no such thing as an "American golden." If a golden retriever is born in America, it's American. If you call up a reputable breeder and throw that by them they are going to be immediately turned off.

Having said that, check out puppy referral with Golden Retriever Club of Illinois


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## LovingBella (Oct 31, 2011)

There are a lot of people on this forum with Dichi goldens and everyone raves about them. I also think that Hyline it worth checking out. They are both in Wisconsin.

What's New?

Hyline Golden Retrievers


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## mkd1401 (Apr 30, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> Please do not use the term "American golden." There is no such thing as an "American golden." If a golden retriever is born in America, it's American. If you call up a reputable breeder and throw that by them they are going to be immediately turned off.
> 
> Having said that, check out puppy referral with Golden Retriever Club of Illinois


 


I have always heard there are 2 types of Golden Retrievers..American & English..there is a distinct difference in the two dogs. There are English Golden Retrievers born in America and yes their bloodlines dictate they are of the English breed. We had an "American" golden for 13 years and only once did someone refer to him as a field retriever.... Contrary to what you say I have spoken to several highly recommended breeders who either refer to their dogs as American or were nothing but nice & friendly to me when I referred to them as such, even though they had no current litters. I'm new to this site and this was my first post...I can't say I was "greeted" very warmly by you...


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## mkd1401 (Apr 30, 2012)

LovingBella said:


> There are a lot of people on this forum with Dichi goldens and everyone raves about them. I also think that Hyline it worth checking out. They are both in Wisconsin.
> 
> What's New?
> 
> Hyline Golden Retrievers


 
Thank you, I did try Dichi, no current males available but I will try the other


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Welcome to the forum. I've always heard that too about the 2 different styles. I see a difference in that one type of Golden has a stockier build and blockier head. The other type is more refined and slender.

I don't know your situation but imho Dichi Goldens are definitely worth waiting a few extra months. I would get on the list in a heartbeat if I were looking for a puppy. I just love Dichi Goldens!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

mkd1401 said:


> I have always heard there are 2 types of Golden Retrievers..American & English..there is a distinct difference in the two dogs. There are English Golden Retrievers born in America and yes their bloodlines dictate they are of the English breed. We had an "American" golden for 13 years and only once did someone refer to him as a field retriever.... Contrary to what you say I have spoken to several highly recommended breeders who either refer to their dogs as American or were nothing but nice & friendly to me when I referred to them as such, even though they had no current litters. I'm new to this site and this was my first post...I can't say I was "greeted" very warmly by you...



I think you are reading WAY too much into Anney's reply. It was meant as a "head's up" and nothing more.
Welcome to the GRF!! :wavey:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

mkd1401 said:


> I have always heard there are 2 types of Golden Retrievers..American & English..there is a distinct difference in the two dogs. There are English Golden Retrievers born in America and yes their bloodlines dictate they are of the English breed. We had an "American" golden for 13 years and only once did someone refer to him as a field retriever.... Contrary to what you say I have spoken to several highly recommended breeders who either refer to their dogs as American or were nothing but nice & friendly to me when I referred to them as such, even though they had no current litters. I'm new to this site and this was my first post...I can't say I was "greeted" very warmly by you...


As Hank said, my post was meant as a "heads up" not to criticize you. HOWEVER -- you are mistaken that there are 2 types of goldens "American" and "English" -- there are lots of types of goldens but they are all GOLDEN RETRIEVERS, not different breeds and not different types neatly pigeonholed into different categories with names.
I did provide you with useful information which was a link to your local golden retriever club which can help direct you to a good breeder.


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## mkd1401 (Apr 30, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> As Hank said, my post was meant as a "heads up" not to criticize you. HOWEVER -- you are mistaken that there are 2 types of goldens "American" and "English" -- there are lots of types of goldens but they are all GOLDEN RETRIEVERS, not different breeds and not different types neatly pigeonholed into different categories with names.
> I did provide you with useful information which was a link to your local golden retriever club which can help direct you to a good breeder.


 
I appreciate the "heads up" ...I was not saying they are "different" breeds, I was referring to different "types", I do see I used the word "breed" after my statement about "English", my mistake but I hardly think I need to be reprimanded... I feel and did feel a "tone" to your posts to me as being confrontational or condescending which is not what I expected when posting on a site for fellow lovers of the breed... I do not want to spend my time on here debating the term I should be using "American" OR "Field"..I care to find a puppy that my family will love as part of our family for years to come... Thank you for your information...


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## mkd1401 (Apr 30, 2012)

I appreciate all of your help for posting recommendations, I will be checking them all! I'm looking forward to interacting on this forum with all of my fellow dog lovers...thank you


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

mkd1401 said:


> I appreciate the "heads up" ...I was not saying they are "different" breeds, I was referring to different "types", I do see I used the word "breed" after my statement about "English", my mistake but I hardly think I need to be reprimanded... I feel and did feel a "tone" to your posts to me as being confrontational or condescending which is not what I expected when posting on a site for fellow lovers of the breed... I do not want to spend my time on here debating the term I should be using "American" OR "Field"..I care to find a puppy that my family will love as part of our family for years to come... Thank you for your information...


Don't get your shorts in a knot. We ARE trying to help you! What Anney is trying to point out is that it is not that simple. This bunching is something which annoys a lot of us because it is a deliniation that is primarily emphasized by people who use it as a marketing tool. As a result a lots of reputable breeders and fanciers do get our backs up when we hear these terms used this way--come at a good breeder using these phrases and you could well have your email end up in the delete file.

TYPE is what defines a breed--type makes a Golden a Golden regardless of style. What you are referring to are different styles--but even there, there are distinct styles bred by different breeders (Faera and Pebwin are both American kennels but their dogs look very different; in English/Euro lines Stanroph has a pretty distinct "look" and so does Dewmist, etc etc) There are also blended lines--big blonde boy in my signature picture and avatar--granddad is a Pebwin dog (so "American" but he looks like what many would label "English"), and the wee blonde girl has field lines(but she is not red!) --so the look is not necessarily an indication of pedigree origin.

To get the look you want, you will have to look at the parents--they will be the best indication of what the puppies will be like. Inquire as to what LINES the breeder uses as opposed to the artificial "English"/"American" dvisision (because originally they all came from SCOTLAND!!!!)


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## mkd1401 (Apr 30, 2012)

Looks like I should have said I am looking for an American style...thank you to those of you who were nice enough to explain this to me here or in a private message *in a way that guided me in a kind way*, the way you approach someone makes all the difference....moving on....


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Welcome to the forum! I hope you love it here as much as I do! I can't wait to hear more about your puppy search and see pictures when you finally get your new baby! I truly don't think anyone was trying to be rude or condescending, just trying to give advice. I am sorry if you took it in that way, we really do all want to help! We'd love to hear more about you and get to know you!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

mkd1401 said:


> Looks like I should have said I am looking for an American style...thank you to those of you who were nice enough to explain this to me here or in a private message *in a way that guided me in a kind way*, the way you approach someone makes all the difference....moving on....


Welcome to the wonderful world of goldens!:wavey: I knew exactly what you meant and my best advice would be to visit the select breeders and take a look at the parents. That will direct you to what style you are looking for. This is what I do.


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## Coastie (Jul 13, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Please do not use the term "American golden." There is no such thing as an "American golden." If a golden retriever is born in America, it's American. If you call up a reputable breeder and throw that by them they are going to be immediately turned off.


Wow. That was hardly necessary. You have* no idea* if someone else would be "turned off" by the OP. I clicked on the thread title because I knew what she was referring to. If that's a problem for you -- then just pass on by and leave it be, assuming you can't be welcoming and kind. :wave:


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Coastie said:


> Wow. That was hardly necessary. You have* no idea* if someone else would be "turned off" by the OP. I clicked on the thread title because I knew what she was referring to. If that's a problem for you -- then just pass on by and leave it be, assuming you can't be welcoming and kind. :wave:


I think this is just a little unkind, I really do not think that post was meant in any mean way, just trying to be informative. I'm sorry you read it the wrong way! I don't think we've met though, I'm Valerie and I hope you find the answers to yr questions and enjoy the forum!


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## toliva (Nov 24, 2011)

Golden Clover Retrievers is within driving distance of you. This is where we got our pup and we could not be happier. However their next litter isn't planned until the end of summer - link: - Home


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Coastie said:


> Wow. That was hardly necessary. You have* no idea* if someone else would be "turned off" by the OP. I clicked on the thread title because I knew what she was referring to. If that's a problem for you -- then just pass on by and leave it be, assuming you can't be welcoming and kind. :wave:


Whatever dude. I knew what the OP was referring to as well, that's why I'm suggesting they stop using that term if they want to get anywhere with a reputable breeder. 
I just love it when random people on the internet think I'm a big old meanie.


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## AnnaJack (May 5, 2012)

MKD1401, I have 2 goldens and I have always referred to them as an American breed. I researched it immensely before deciding on a dog and what I found was there are 2 types of goldens as stated above. The "English" breed is the image that comes to mind when one thinks of a golden. The "American" breed is a smaller golden. They do not grow to the standard size of the "English" golden. I purchased mine from a breeder in Roulette, Pennsylvania and they are extremely smart, loveable, and adorable! Good luck with your search for an "American" breed! I hope you find one soon!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A very very WARM welcome to the GRF!!!

And, what K9-Design said.

You may be interested in an American "style" Golden Retriever. Easy enough, and I would suggest that you contact your local GR club for puppy referrals. And as Anney suggested, rather than potentially being turned away by reputable breeders, I wouldn't use the term "American type (which actually should be "style"). She was attempting to help. Period.

"Type" is what makes a dog it's breed.
"Style" is the subtle differences between individuals.
Without breed type, style means little.
Those of us who are breeders and who are passionate about the breed only wish to help make it easier for those looking for puppies.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Coastie said:


> Wow. That was hardly necessary. You have* no idea* if someone else would be "turned off" by the OP. I clicked on the thread title because I knew what she was referring to. If that's a problem for you -- then just pass on by and leave it be, assuming you can't be welcoming and kind. :wave:


 
As a reputable, responsible breeder, I would say that "yes, she does." And the fact that we DO know what the OP was referring to, and wish to actually help make it easier for him/her to communicate that with other reputable, responsible breeders, indeed IS "necessary".


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## Always51 (Feb 19, 2012)

Welcome to the forum!!! Hope you find the dog of your dreams!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

AnnaJack said:


> *I researched it immensely before deciding on a dog and what I found was there are 2 types of goldens as stated above. The "English" breed is the image that comes to mind when one thinks of a golden. The "American" breed is a smaller golden. They do not grow to the standard size of the "English" golden.*


Sigh. Sorry, you are rather misinformed. Clearly you didn't spend any time researching golden retrievers on the GRCA or AKC websites, or any published book on golden retrievers. 
NO reputable golden retriever breeder is going to believe the above about two types of goldens nor would they sell their goldens as one or the other. THIS IS A MARKETING PLOY BY PUPPY MILLS TO "UPSELL" THEIR NORMAL GOLDENS BY LABELING THEM AS "AMERICAN."
There. See, I was nice before.


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## AnnaJack (May 5, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> Sigh. Sorry, you are rather misinformed. Clearly you didn't spend any time researching golden retrievers on the GRCA or AKC websites, or any published book on golden retrievers.
> NO reputable golden retriever breeder is going to believe the above about two types of goldens nor would they sell their goldens as one or the other. THIS IS A MARKETING PLOY BY PUPPY MILLS TO "UPSELL" THEIR NORMAL GOLDENS BY LABELING THEM AS "AMERICAN."
> There. See, I was nice before.


Excuse me while I try very hard not to tell you where to stick it, how dare you try to tell me what research I did or did not do! I purchased my 2 dogs not because of what type they were but because their breeder wasn't a pompous, pushy know-it all like a lot of other breeders that I have come to know. They did not make me feel stupid nor belittled when I talked to them. I spent may hours talking back and forth with them and I visited their house many times and I assure you it was far from a puppy mill.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AnnaJack said:


> Excuse me while I try very hard not to tell you where to stick it, how dare you try to tell me what research I did or did not do! I purchased my 2 dogs not because of what type they were but because their breeder wasn't a pompous, pushy know-it all like a lot of other breeders that I have come to know. They did not make me feel stupid nor belittled when I talked to them. I spent may hours talking back and forth with them and I visited their house many times and I assure you it was far from a puppy mill.


AnnaJack also wrote: "The "English" breed is the image that comes to mind when one thinks of a golden. The "American" breed is a smaller golden. They do not grow to the standard size of the "English" golden."


Did you read both standards? Because, if you did extensive research you would know that in fact the UK standard (the English "type") actually requires a SMALLER dog than the US standard. And a reputable breeder would surely have clarified that with a potential puppy buyer who is doing their homework...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just on the off chance that AnnaJack missed the two standards, here they are:

Here is the breed standard for the "English" Golden Retriever: 
*The Breed Standard*_Published with kind permission from The Kennel Club_*GENERAL APPEARANCE*. Symmetrical, balanced, active, powerful, level mover, sound with kindly expression.
*Characteristics*. Biddable, intelligent and possessing natural working ability.
*Temperament.* Kindly, friendly and confident.
*Head and Skull.* Balanced and well-chiselled, skull broad without coarseness; well set on neck, muzzle powerful, wide and deep. Length of foreface approximately equals length from well-defined stop to occiput. Nose preferably black.
*Eyes.* Dark brown, set well apart, dark rims.
*Ears.* Moderate size, set on approximate level with eyes.
*Mouth.* Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set to the jaws.
*Neck.* Good length, clean and muscular.
*Forequarters.* Forelegs straight with good bone, shoulders well laid back, long in blade with upper arm of equal length placing legs well under body. Elbows close fitting.
*Body.* Balanced, short coupled, deep through heart. Ribs deep and well sprung. Level topline.
*Hindquarters.* Loin and legs strong and muscular, good second thighs, well bent stifles. Hocks well let down, straight when viewed from rear, neither turning in nor out. Cowhocks highly undesirable.
*Feet.* Round and cat-like.
*Tail.* Set on and carried level with back, reaching the hocks, without curl at tip.
*Gait/Movement.* Powerful with good drive. Straight and true in front and rear. Stride long and free with no sign of hackney action in front.
*Coat.* Flat or wavy with good feathering, dense water-resisting undercoat.
*Colour.* Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.
*Size.* Height at withers: Dogs 56-61 cms (22-24 ins); Bitches 51-56 cms (20-22 ins).
*Faults.* Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree.
*Note.* Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.


And here is the AKC breed standard:
Retriever Breed Standard
*Sporting Group*

*General Appearance*
A symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Overall appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts. *Faults*--Any departure from the described ideal shall be considered faulty to the degree to which it interferes with the breed’s purpose or is contrary to breed character.
*Size, Proportion, Substance*
Males 23-24 inches in height at withers; females 21½-22½ inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall _disqualify_. Length from breastbone to point of buttocks slightly greater than height at withers in ratio of 12:11. Weight for dogs 65-75 pounds; bitches 55-65 pounds. 
*Head*
Broad in skull, slightly arched laterally and longitudinally without prominence of frontal bones (forehead) or occipital bones. _Stop_ well defined but not abrupt. _Foreface_ deep and wide, nearly as long as skull. *Muzzle* straight in profile, blending smooth and strongly into skull; when viewed in profile or from above, slightly deeper and wider at stop than at tip. No heaviness in flews. Removal of whiskers is permitted but not preferred. *Eyes* friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead. Dogs showing evidence of functional abnormality of eyelids or eyelashes (such as, but not limited to, trichiasis, entropion, ectropion, or distichiasis) are to be excused from the ring. *Ears* rather short with front edge attached well behind and just above the eye and falling close to cheek. When pulled forward, tip of ear should just cover the eye. Low, hound-like ear set to be faulted. *Nose* black or brownish black, though fading to a lighter shade in cold weather not serious. Pink nose or one seriously lacking in pigmentation to be faulted. *Teeth* scissors bite, in which the outer side of the lower incisors touches the inner side of the upper incisors. Undershot or overshot bite is a _disqualification._ Misalignment of teeth (irregular placement of incisors) or a level bite (incisors meet each other edge to edge) is undesirable, but not to be confused with undershot or overshot. Full dentition. Obvious gaps are serious faults.
*Neck, Topline, Body*
Neck medium long, merging gradually into well laid back shoulders, giving sturdy, muscular appearance. No throatiness. *Backline* strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping backline, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted. *Body* well balanced, short coupled, deep through the chest. _Chest_ between forelegs at least as wide as a man’s closed hand including thumb, with well developed forechest. Brisket extends to elbow. _Ribs_ long and well sprung but not barrel shaped, extending well towards hindquarters. _Loin_ short, muscular, wide and deep, with very little tuck-up. Slab-sidedness, narrow chest, lack of depth in brisket, excessive tuck-up to be faulted. *Tail* well set on, thick and muscular at the base, following the natural line of the croup. Tail bones extend to, but not below, the point of hock. Carried with merry action, level or with some moderate upward curve; never curled over back nor between legs.
*Forequarters*
Muscular, well coordinated with hindquarters and capable of free movement. _Shoulder blades_ long and well laid back with upper tips fairly close together at withers. _Upper arms_ appear about the same length as the blades, setting the elbows back beneath the upper tip of the blades, close to the ribs without looseness. _Legs,_ viewed from the front, straight with good bone, but not to the point of coarseness. _Pasterns_ short and strong, sloping slightly with no suggestion of weakness. Dewclaws on forelegs may be removed, but are normally left on. *Feet* medium size, round, compact, and well knuckled, with thick pads. Excess hair may be trimmed to show natural size and contour. Splayed or hare feet to be faulted.
*Hindquarters*
Broad and strongly muscled. Profile of croup slopes slightly; the pelvic bone slopes at a slightly greater angle (approximately 30 degrees from horizontal). In a natural stance, the femur joins the pelvis at approximately a 90-degree angle; _stifles_ well bent; _hocks_ well let down with short, strong _rear pasterns._ _Feet_ as in front. _Legs_ straight when viewed from rear. Cow-hocks, spread hocks, and sickle hocks to be faulted.
*Coat*
Dense and water-repellent with good undercoat. Outer coat firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky, lying close to body; may be straight or wavy. Untrimmed natural ruff; moderate feathering on back of forelegs and on underbody; heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail. Coat on head, paws, and front of legs is short and even. Excessive length, open coats, and limp, soft coats are very undesirable. Feet may be trimmed and stray hairs neatened, but the natural appearance of coat or outline should not be altered by cutting or clipping.
*Color*
Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.
*Gait*
When trotting, gait is free, smooth, powerful and well coordinated, showing good reach. Viewed from any position, legs turn neither in nor out, nor do feet cross or interfere with each other. As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward center line of balance. It is recommended that dogs be shown on a loose lead to reflect true gait.
*Temperament*
Friendly, reliable, and trustworthy. Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards other dogs or people in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Golden Retriever character. Such actions should be penalized according to their significance.
*Disqualifications*
_Deviation in height of more than one inch from standard either way._
_Undershot or overshot bite._
*Approved October 13, 1981 *
*Reformatted August 18, 1990*


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

AnnaJack said:


> Excuse me while I try very hard not to tell you where to stick it, how dare you try to tell me what research I did or did not do! I purchased my 2 dogs not because of what type they were but because their breeder wasn't a pompous, pushy know-it all like a lot of other breeders that I have come to know. They did not make me feel stupid nor belittled when I talked to them. I spent may hours talking back and forth with them and I visited their house many times and I assure you it was far from a puppy mill.


What reputable sources did you obtain this information that there are two types of goldens, American and English? I can guarantee you it was not the GRCA, AKC or KC (British), as it is just not true.
If you came to me looking for a puppy and referred to my dogs as "American" I would explain to you that while yes, they were born in America and thus are American, there is not a specific line or type of golden retriever specifically called or labeled "American." If you insisted that you were correct that my dogs are "AMERICAN GOLDEN RETRIEVERS," then yes my tone would turn to exactly what you are seeing now: exasperation and frustration that people continue to perpetuate this ridiculous claim of "AMERICAN GOLDENS" as a distinct and separate entity.


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

Hi,

Not to add fuel to the fire, but when someone talks of English or American "types", I instantly know what they mean and to me, there's no difference in the so-called value of one or the other. 

I live in France and my Goldens are from 2 different breeders and descend from the Stanroph lines; they tend to be stockier than the American type. They're also very light. One also associates cream coloring with English types, more so than American types.

Also, the offical breed standards do differ slightly if you look at the AKC criteria as opposed to the UK criteria:

*US:* "*Color*:*Rich, lustrous golden of various shades.* Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either* extremely pale *or extremely dark *is undesirable.* *Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity.<--infers that goldens "should" be colored and not cream.*

*UK: "Colour*: * Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany.* A few white hairs on chest only permissible. From 2000, only* Cream, Gold or Golden will be accepted by the KC on registrations."*

*US: "Size:* Males* 23-24 inches* in height at withers; females *21½-22½* inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. *Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall disqualify*. Length from breastbone to point of buttocks slightly greater than height at withers in ratio of 12:11. *Weight for dogs 65-75 pounds; bitches 55-65 pounds."

**UK: "Size: *Height at withers: dogs; 56-61 cms (*22-24ins*) bitches: 51-56cms (*20-22ins*). *No weight specification.*

I've already posted these pics, but to give an idea of UK build and coloring, here are my babies. Mine are very light, but there are a lot of "strawberry blonds" here too. Yet they do differ from the American types whose pictures I see on the site--and who are just as lovely, lovable, and capable of love as the UK type.

I find it sad that any breeder would be on the defensive or offended by a prospective client requesting an "American" golden. It's obvious the client is refering to type, and as long as they're looking to adopt the Golden Heart into their family, the rest doesn't matter.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Here's the problem. The goldens below are all from 100% American lineage. They look really similar, don't they? 
There's the fallacy. There may be one "English" type but there is NOT one "American" type. So how can you lump them all together?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Anney,
If someone can name all the dogs in your post do they win a prize?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hollyk said:


> Anney,
> If someone can name all the dogs in your post do they win a prize?


Yes! My eternal praise and admiration


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I understand the breeders reaction to this thread, but it was not helpful the OP. She is looking for a good breeder, beating the symantics to death does not help her do that.

OP, if you liked the Dichi dogs perhaps that breeder could refer you to someone they know who is breeding sooner or has a litter on the ground that would be what you are looking for.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Sent you a PM with a pointer to an available male puppy from a reputable breeder who is north of Baltimore. You need 15 posts before you can PM a reply, but if you have questions, post a response to this message and I'll get back to you.

Good luck!


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Here's the problem...There may be one "English" type but there is NOT one "American" type. So how can you lump them all together?


Perhaps you can't. There will always be variations under the main heading, even with English types. But maybe what's important is simply knowing what a person means when he requests an "American Golden". To me, that signifies generally "taller, leaner, redder," than the English type. Many sources corroborate this image (here's one of many):


"Around World War II is when the English Golden Retriever and the American Golden Retriever began to go in different directions as breeds. Breeding began to take place between American kennels, rather than relying on bloodlines from English kennels. * Over time, the American breed began to diverge from its English cousin, becoming a somewhat lighter (in weight) and leaner animal.** The English Golden Retriever is heavier and stockier than its American counterpart. It has a broader skull and more muscular forequarters. While generally lighter in color than its American Golden, color has become less and less a defining characteristic of the breed.* "


One can hardly blame people for integrating these differences, nor for developping their personal preferences. Breeders do the same, don't they? They choose the type they produce according to their own tastes; why then should there be a problem with potential owners naming theirs?


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Please. It is STYLE not TYPE. It is not mere semantics as TYPE is what defines a breed--if type is different it is a *different breed.* Many of us who have English lines in our breeding programs have been fighting efforts by some of the "rare white" breeders to have the breed formally separated as different types, so these sorts of issues do get our backs up.

To illustrate why such braod strokes do not work: The wee girl to the far left of my avatar is 3/4 English import lines--she is not big, or broad headed or heavy boned. She is 55lbs, at the one-inch under mark as per the US standard but would in the KC standard. Her son (the big boy in the back with the darker face) was sired by a light coloured French import--but he is my darkest dog! Her daughter ( the little puppy) is now bigger than her and heavier boned and heavier coated--her dad is field trial stuff--which many people think means wiry and dark. 

The point is that the artificial divisions just don't work unless people are purposely breeding for the exaggeration. These styles all compete equally well under good breeder judges provided they have good structure and movement--they are ONE BREED and are judged by the standard in force which as you can see from what PG has posted has only very minor variations. That's what I tell my puppy inquiries when they have heard these sorts of divisions and ask "what kind" of Goldens I have. For me it is about breed education so that the stereotypes don't get perpetuated.

Look at pictures of the breeder's dogs to see if they are the style that appeals is our point--and be most concerned with whether the breeder is doing all health clearances and breeding from quality parents who fall within the standard.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

sterregold said:


> Please. It is STYLE not TYPE. It is not mere semantics as TYPE is what defines a breed--if type is different it is a *different breed.* Many of us who have English lines in our breeding programs have been fighting efforts by some of the "rare white" breeders to have the breed formally separated as different types, so these sorts of issues do get our backs up.
> 
> To illustrate why such braod strokes do not work: The wee girl to the far left of my avatar is 3/4 English import lines--she is not big, or broad headed or heavy boned. She is 55lbs, at the one-inch under mark as per the US standard but would in the KC standard. Her son (the big boy in the back with the darker face) was sired by a light coloured French import--but he is my darkest dog! Her daughter ( the little puppy) is now bigger than her and heavier boned and heavier coated--her dad is field trial stuff--which many people think means wiry and dark.
> 
> ...


 
*THANK YOU. *
Thank you a thousand times over.


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## Caesar's Buddy (May 25, 2010)

This is an interesting thread. All I can say is that I love all Goldens.

Pat


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

JazzSkye said:


> *While generally lighter in color than its American Golden, color has become less and less a defining characteristic of the breed.* "


I feel like pointing out the obvious that the integral and defining characteristic of the breed IS COLOR and WORKING ABILITY. GOLDEN RETRIEVER. If they are neither GOLD nor a RETRIEVER they are not a golden retriever. /peeve



> One can hardly blame people for integrating these differences, nor for developping their personal preferences. Breeders do the same, don't they? They choose the type they produce according to their own tastes; why then should there be a problem with potential owners naming theirs?


Okay then let me explain my POV another way. I have been showing and training goldens for 20 years here in America. I have finished two AKC Champions, including a CH/UD/MH/DDHF who is also an Outstanding Sire (GRCA). I have been a member of the GRCA and my local golden club(s) for 20 years. I can tell you with a great degree of certainty that NO REPUTABLE BREEDER OR EXHIBITOR of Goldens here in the States describes their dogs as "AMERICAN GOLDENS." They are GOLDEN RETRIEVERS -- PERIOD! 

So while yes, we all pretty much know what someone is talking about if they say "American" vs. "English" Golden -- please be aware that this is NOT a term used by reputable, established kennels here in the States. It IS used by backyard breeders and puppy mills to put a "special" or "unique" label on their run of the mill goldens of unremarkable type. 10 years ago before the influx of the "English golden" fad here in the States, no one had ever called a golden retriever an "American Red" or anything of the sort. Once the English Creme fad showed up on the scene, suddenly the puppy mills had some competition and to keep their puppies unique they started labeling them as "American Red" Goldens. All of this is, of course, ridiculous. And absolutely cringe-worthy for us reputable breeders.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Let me ad that I love all goldens too. I have a real appreciation for all types of goldens and am happy that our breed is so diverse. What I don't like is when unscrupulous breeders attach nebulous labels to their dogs just to create an aura of uniqueness or exclusivity to better attract buyers. Which is EXACTLY where this term "American Golden" came about, at least here in the States.


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## magiclover (Apr 22, 2008)

Welcome to the forum. I have had 3 dogs from Dichi and have been very happy. Whether or not you go with them finding a good breeder is worth it even if you have to wait a few extra months. Health and quality, and proper clearances are most important. Good luck!


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

sterregold said:


> Please. It is STYLE not TYPE. It is not mere semantics as TYPE is what defines a breed--if type is different it is a *different breed.* Many of us who have English lines in our breeding programs have been fighting efforts by some of the "rare white" breeders to have the breed formally separated as different types, so these sorts of issues do get our backs up.


Ok, if the word "style" is less offensive to breeders than "type", I have no problem with that. But don't forget most people aren't on the inside track as far as breeding issues go. I don't think that prospective owners, who are the outsiders in this territorial "war" so to speak, ought to be taken to task for requesting an American golden based on what their image of one is. Would it be so difficult to simply ask "well, what kind of Golden are you looking for, physically?" I mean, seriously....:doh:

Don't get me wrong: I completely adhere to what is being said here about puppy mills vs good breeders, and unscrupulous marketing practices. But we won't raise awareness by browbeating people and making them feel guilty for liking one "style" over another.



K9-Design said:


> I feel like pointing out the obvious that the integral and defining characteristic of the breed IS COLOR and WORKING ABILITY. GOLDEN RETRIEVER. *If they are neither GOLD nor a RETRIEVER they are not a golden retriever*. /peeve


Hold up! I beg to differ: 

UK: "Colour:Any shade of gold* or cream*, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only permissible. From 2000,* only Cream, Gold or Golden will be accepted by the KC on registrations."*

With all due respect, K9, you've just said my dogs aren't golden retrievers. But this is a personal opinion on your part, because by UK standards, they most definitely are.

My turn to get my back up: Jazz placed third in the French National Championships at 1 year. It was my fourth and last show with him, because I'd had enough of hearing remarks like: "that dog shouldn't even be allowed to enter; he's not gold."

If, as Sterregold says, we're not to divide the breed into distinct types, then the two current versions of breed standard must be universally accepted. I don't hesitate to remind the judgemental folk on this side of the pond who are dead set on "what a golden is, should be, and forever will be", that the breed was a cross to begin with, so enough of the "silver spoon mentality" already 

I don't begrudge anyone their opinion, but while everyone has their own likings, breeders especially have the responsibility of adhering to breed standard(s), and keeping their own personal preferences separate from what said standards dictate.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

hollyk said:


> Anney,
> If someone can name all the dogs in your post do they win a prize?


I can only name two: Uncle Crosby and Boomer.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

Light,dark,small,big,50lbs or 100lbs..they are all adorable in my eyes. My Oakley is about 80lbs of fluff big face etc, while my Zoe is maybe 50lbs and a tiny little thing...What does that make them?


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I have two points to make. The first is that there is a wide divergence in what Goldens in England (as opposed to the marketed "English Golden) looks like. As in the US there are field and show style dogs. If I was better at posting pictures and did not have a cat chewing on my arm, I would include some to demonstrate the difference. My second point is that American breeders have been incorporating dogs from England and Europe into their lines for as long as there have been Goldens. It seems to me that a reputable breeder would know this and strive to produce the best Golden they can regardless of labels.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Yes, and there are more than two standards as well--
The CKC standard is likely the most inclusive as far as colour range is concerned. You have likely seen the widely circulated picture from the GRCC Illustrated breed standard (3rd picture) of the dogs lined up along a fence--in the KC standard the darkest dogs would be not be desireable, in the AKC standard the lightest would not be. In the CKC standard the entire range is acceptable. That said, event he darkest and lightest of them must have a golden glint to their coat.

Just to illustrate that one can still have type with style differences here are some dogs that have been appreciated by judges of all camps.

1st dog is a GRCC 2007 National JAM winner under a Danish breeder judge, who has also won the gun dog class at three specialties under Danish, Bermudian, and English judges respectively. He has also placed in the Open class in AKC shows under American breeder-judges like Janice Provenzano, Michael Faulkner, Don Sturz and Charlie Fippin.

2nd A girl that Nancy Talbott also gave the GRCC National to in 2010, and who was Best of Opposite at the 2010 GRCA National under Henrick Frykstand.

4th is the first dog's father, who won the GRCC National in 2003 under an American breeder-judge, Nancy Talbott (who found him again at the 2010 GRCC National to win his veterans class), and also won his class at a GRCA National specialty under another American breeder judge. (And despite his colour, his dad was actually from a prominent US kennel)


5th is another girl who the Danish breeder judge gave Best of Opposite to at the specialty as the first dog in 2007.

These breeder judges were all able to find merit in these dogs--often at the same shows--because they all have breed type, despite the stylistic differences.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

JazzSkye said:


> Ok, if the word "style" is less offensive to breeders than "type", I have no problem with that. But don't forget most people aren't on the inside track as far as breeding issues go. I don't think that prospective owners, who are the outsiders in this territorial "war" so to speak, ought to be taken to task for requesting an American golden based on what their image of one is.
> 
> Would it be so difficult to simply ask "well, what kind of Golden are you looking for, physically?" I mean, seriously....:doh:
> ....


 
My point exactly.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I can only name two: Uncle Crosby and Boomer.


Better than me. Which one is Crosby?

6. Boomer

Is 4 Stanley Steamer ?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Every single one of these dog? Born and bred in the UK. Big, white, and blocky? Nope. Just sayin'...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Really they were just trying to help someone not look ignorant when talking to breeders. Calling up a breeder in America and telling them you want an American type golden is like wearing a giant sign sign that says "Clueless.". If I were wanting a breeder to entrust me with one of their puppies, I would want to seem as if I had some knowledge of what I was talking about, instead of appearing to be someone jumping on the fad of the moment bandwagon.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> Really they were just trying to help someone not look ignorant when talking to breeders. Calling up a breeder in America and telling them you want an American type golden is like wearing a giant sign sign that says "Clueless.". If I were wanting a breeder to entrust me with one of their puppies, I would want to seem as if I had some knowledge of what I was talking about, instead of appearing to be someone jumping on the fad of the moment bandwagon.


 
It's frustrating when someone posts: "I have 2 goldens and I have always referred to them as an American breed. I researched it immensely before deciding on a dog and what I found was there are 2 types of goldens as stated above. The "English" breed is the image that comes to mind when one thinks of a golden. The "American" breed is a smaller golden. They do not grow to the standard size of the "English" golden." and when the facts are pointed out, tells reputable breeders to "stick it". Anything that reputable, responsible breeders post here is meant to help both dogs and potential buyers. It is extremely helpful to be well (and correctly) informed when looking for a puppy.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

JazzSkye said:


> I don't think that prospective owners, who are the outsiders in this territorial "war" so to speak, ought to be taken to task for requesting an American golden based on what their image of one is.


Look at my original post. I did not take the OP "to task" or browbeat him. It's the other posters who insist that there exists an "American Golden" that I have become quite irritated with. 



> With all due respect, K9, you've just said my dogs aren't golden retrievers. But this is a personal opinion on your part, because by UK standards, they most definitely are.


Nope, what I strongly disagree with is this notion, which you quoted before:

"*While generally lighter in color than its American Golden, color has become less and less a defining characteristic of the breed.* ""

The fact that any golden fancier or breeder would openly admit that color has become "less and less a defining characteristic of the breed" is sad! It's one of the few breeds in existence so named because of their color! Is a brown Black Russian Terrier, still a Black Russian Terrier? Is a white Kerry Blue Terrier still a KBT? How about a black Wheaten terrier? See what I'm getting at? Now where you are taking offense is on something I have not said. I never said that I disagreed with cream colored dogs. In fact I personally have a wide range of what I consider acceptable color for a golden, and to be honest, I have never seen a purebred golden whose color I disagreed with. Even the palest of goldens you can find a tinge of platinum blonde, which is gold, and fine by me. Whether they are almost white cream or nearly mahogany, they are all genetically the same color. What I do disagree with is ignoring THE DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC OF THE BREED -- WHAT OUR BREED IS NAMED FOR -- GOLD COLOR -- in the pursuit of show ring success or puppy sales marketing.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

hollyk said:


> Better than me. Which one is Crosby?
> 
> 6. Boomer
> 
> Is 4 Stanley Steamer ?


#3 is Malone I think?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Please do not use the term "American golden." There is no such thing as an "American golden." If a golden retriever is born in America, it's American. If you call up a reputable breeder and throw that by them they are going to be immediately turned off.
> 
> Having said that, check out puppy referral with Golden Retriever Club of Illinois


This is K9-Design's original post. I don't see how this was browbeating, reprimanding, criticizing, taking to task, etc. She was direct but also offering advice, i.e. when you call a breeder don't say you're looking for an "American Golden."

Sometimes I think people need to take a deep breath and actually READ what is written before they jump all over someone for offering advice.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I also feel compelled to point out.....people that are disagreeing with PointGold, Sterregold and K9-Design, do you realize you're disagreeing with 3 very experienced people in the breed? They collectively have decades of experience. Maybe some don't realize that, but there needs to be a little respect for those who have been in the breed for a long time. 

And....just because you hear someone on the street use a term or something is on the internet, like someone calling their dogs "English Goldens," "English Cream Retriever," "Platinum Retriever," "Rare White Retriever" or "American Goldens", doesn't make it accurate. If I were looking for a puppy and someone offered me the advice given by K9-Design I would have been very grateful to her for preventing me from making a mistake when contacting breeders.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm not disagreeing with them at all. Totally agree with them about the points they are making. Their experience and knowledge is invaluable, and we are fortunate they share it with us, pet owners, on this board. They are passionate about the breed, I wholeheartedly respect that.

Just would like to help someone find a good breeder without being beaten to a bloody pulp first. You can get a point across in a positive way and get a lot further educating someone.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I also feel compelled to point out.....people that are disagreeing with PointGold, Sterregold and K9-Design, do you realize you're disagreeing with 3 very experienced people in the breed? They collectively have decades of experience. Maybe some don't realize that, but there needs to be a little respect for those who have been in the breed for a long time.


Agreed! If one of the members had sound advice for me, I know I would take it!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

mylissyk said:


> Just would like to help someone find a good breeder without being beaten to a bloody pulp first. You can get a point across in a positive way and get a lot further educating someone.


I agree with you, but I really don't think that happened in K9-Design's first post. She was offering advice. The OP responded negatively and escalated the situation, but even then, K9-Design said she wasn't criticizing him and clarified it was a "heads up" and corrected the terminology again. Then people starting jumping in and it turned into mess, like many threads on here. It goes back to my original post a few posts up. People need to take a deep breath and READ a post before jumping all over someone. I think that works on both sides of the "debate" (not that there really is one on this particular issue since K9-Design is right) but I think K9-Design had good intentions here.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I also feel compelled to point out.....people that are disagreeing with PointGold, Sterregold and K9-Design, do you realize you're disagreeing with 3 very experienced people in the breed? They collectively have decades of experience. Maybe some don't realize that, but there needs to be a little respect for those who have been in the breed for a long time.
> 
> And....just because you hear someone on the street use a term or something is on the internet, like someone calling their dogs "English Goldens," "English Cream Retriever," "Platinum Retriever," "Rare White Retriever" or "American Goldens", doesn't make it accurate. If I were looking for a puppy and someone offered me the advice given by K9-Design I would have been very grateful to her for preventing me from making a mistake when contacting breeders.


 
You just have to realize that no matter what, or how, some people post things, there are those who like to say that they are being rude/condescending/etc. Shoot, I could post the lyrics to Mary Had a Little Lamb and there would be those who would say I was bullying sheepherders.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> You just have to realize that no matter what, or how, some people post things, there are those who like to say that they are being rude/condescending/etc. Shoot, I could post the lyrics to Mary Had a Little Lamb those who would say I was bullying sheepherders.


That's very very true, and particularly relevant with certain people  but it doesn't make it right and I'm fine with saying that publicly on this forum.

And we all know how annoying those sheepherders can be...lol


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Shoot, I could post the lyrics to Mary Had a Little Lamb those who would say I was bullying sheepherders.


Now you're taking a shot at them because their "fleece is white as snow"?!?!?!? :doh:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Now you're taking a shot at them because their "fleece is white as snow"?!?!?!? :doh:


Eggzackly. :eyecrazy:


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow! Potential owners might want to think about taking a dog breeders etiquette class as not to look ignorant while puppy hunting. What a major turn off IMHO. Glad all breeders are not created equal.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

What does that even mean? Someone offers helpful advice (refer to post #2 in the thread) and that's a "major turn off?" Any reputable breeder would probably also correct a puppy buyer in the exact same way K9-Design did.... she was merely trying to prevent a snafu by the OP when calling or emailing breeders. No good deed goes unpunished I guess....geez louise.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> What does that even mean? Someone offers helpful advice (refer to post #2 in the thread) and that's a "major turn off?" Any reputable breeder would probably also correct a puppy buyer in the exact same way K9-Design did.... she was merely trying to prevent a snafu by the OP when calling or emailing breeders. No good deed goes unpunished I guess....geez louise.


It was meant to be exactly how I posted it. Between all the bickering back and forth in regards to style and type. And being forwarned as not to be considered looking ignorant while shopping for a puppy.  This was not an attack on K9-Design.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Wow! Potential owners might want to think about taking a dog breeders etiquette class as not to look ignorant while puppy hunting. What a major turn off IMHO. Glad all breeders are not created equal.


That there are those who care enough to help potential buyers by providing them with information that will help them comminicate with other breeders in an informed manner - gads. They should be shot. 
And, that some would sell to anyone without mentoring/educating/verifying (read that _Without caring about anything other than that their check clears_) is just horrific. 
:no:

It's a "major turn-off" when ill informed people tout their years of experience, and hours and hours of research, etc etc, and yet, when proven incorrect by those who actually do have the facts, tell them to "stick it".


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> That there are those who care enough to help potential buyers by providing them with information that will help them comminicate with other breeders in an informed manner - gads. They should be shot.
> And, that some would sell to anyone without mentoring/educating/verifying (read that _Without caring about anything other than that their check clears_) is just horrific.
> :no:
> 
> It's a "major turn-off" when ill informed people tout their years of experience, and hours and hours of research, etc etc, and yet, when proven incorrect by those who actually do have the facts, tell them to "stick it".


Actually it's all about the "one up" message that is coming across that is a major turn off IMHO. I'm pretty sure most people that speak the same language can communicate. And yes how dare me to forget to put "reputable" before I mentioned breeder. Thank god all "reputable breeders" are not created equal

Sorry to the op, and hope you find your american "type/style" golden.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually it's all about the "one up" message that is coming across that is a major turn off IMHO. I'm pretty sure most people that speak the same language can communicate. And yes how dare me to forget to put "reputable" before I mentioned breeder. Thank god all "reputable breeders" are not created equal
> 
> Sorry to the op, and hope you find your american "type/style" golden.


Wow. Just wow.
Who could possibly "one up" that?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

IMO, this thread has taken a turn for the worse?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

For whatever it's worth.... 

I'm pretty sure I've referred to the goldens I own and prefer as "American type", and this is to differentiate between them and "English type". I've said before what I see when I look at some of the "european style" goldens. Their body structure is slightly different than what I'm used to and there are other differences - especially when compared to your average goldens in the conformation ring.

I know that "type" means something different to other people, but I'm a bit of a numbskull when it comes to remembering to say the right words at the right time. 

Style isn't a word I use too often - probably because I think hair styles, clothes shopping, and car models. Instead of dogs. 

I understand why people correct the term... and it's OK with me. But it's not always meant as a red-vs-cream statement. Or I wish it wouldn't be.  

@American type of goldens - I think this is where I think everyone was responding that way to the OP. It's a very wide field of diverse styles. Lots of breeders. Lots of very DIFFERENT breeders breeding for different purposes. Lots of different goldens as far as temperament and suitability for the average family home.


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## amaya (May 8, 2012)

*Breeder*

I am new to the forum. Also, I am not sure how to post on my own thread. So I apologize in advance for "hi-jacking" this thread. I am looking for a reputable breeder in the Arizona area. Has anyone purchased their golden from Valor Goldens? If so, can you provide information about them? Good or bad... Thank youz


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## Caesar's Buddy (May 25, 2010)

Well after reading this far, I have learned a lot. I had Caesar and Jenni, both Goldens who I loved with all my heart, (I still haven't been able to get another Golden, but I will) I only know them as Goldens, I give my life, my home and my heart to my dogs.

When I do get another golden, if I were to talk with a breeder who corrected me repeatedly in areas that were above my novice knowledge, out of embarrassment I would walk away from them in a heartbeat. 

Sadly, it is the puppy who would suffer because my home is warm, caring, full of love, and my dogs live wonderful, full and caring lives. I really don't care what "type or style" they are. I will leave that to others.

Pat


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Caesar's Buddy said:


> When I do get another golden, if I were to talk with a breeder who corrected me repeatedly in areas that were above my novice knowledge, out of embarrassment I would walk away from them in a heartbeat.
> 
> Sadly, it is the puppy who would suffer because my home is warm, caring, full of love, and my dogs live wonderful, full and caring lives.
> 
> Pat


I think this is going way too far. The puppy would suffer? Seriously? 
If a puppy buyer constantly referred to my dogs as "American goldens" after I repeatedly asked them not to and explained why, in great detail, there was no such thing as an "American golden" -- well guess what, I would think they were dense as concrete and they wouldn't get a puppy from me.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I do see how Passionate reputable breeders are. I do not see it as rude, but rather passion for the breed. I would not have it any other way. I just wish people would take it as a learning experience and move on. Learning is a good thing! Nobody knows everything.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I remember when we went to go and meet Joey's breeder for the first time, she asked us what we DIDN'T want in our dog. I explained that I don't like 'white' golden retrievers. She politely explained to me the differences and showed me a picture of an extremely light golden and an extremely dark golden, saying they are all Goldens! I thanked her and continued my learning... I think before anyone should get a dog they should do plenty of re-search.. if you find something that is hear say like 'english creme, red american' then read more about it and see others opinions.. If I also was absolutely not sure, I would ask a reputable breeder what the term meant and if it was a real term... 

Anyway, my 2 cents


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Caesar's Buddy said:


> Well after reading this far, I have learned a lot. I had Caesar and Jenni, both Goldens who I loved with all my heart, (I still haven't been able to get another Golden, but I will) I only know them as Goldens, I give my life, my home and my heart to my dogs.
> 
> When I do get another golden, if I were to talk with a breeder who corrected me repeatedly in areas that were above my novice knowledge, out of embarrassment I would walk away from them in a heartbeat.
> 
> ...


 
If I were looking to purchase something that I knew relatively little about, and the seller (reputable and expert in that particular subject) corrected me and offered me sound and factual information, I would not be embarrassed at all. I would be grateful for the education.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> If I were looking to purchase something that I knew relatively little about, and the seller (reputable and expert in that particular subject) corrected me and offered me sound and factual information, I would not be embarrassed at all. I would be grateful for the education.


I would rather have a breeder correcting me vs having to correct a breeder.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Caesar's Buddy said:


> When I do get another golden, if I were to talk with a breeder who corrected me repeatedly in areas that were above my novice knowledge, out of embarrassment I would walk away from them in a heartbeat.
> 
> Pat


I find this interesting. You would prefer a breeder to ignore your misconceptions and just sell you what they "think" you want, rather than try to explain the true facts and make sure you understand exactly what it is you are wanting so they can get you the puppy you are looking for?


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

I don't understand at all why people are offended when others who know more about a subject try to educate them about that subject. Personally, I didn't know squat about golden retrievers when I adopted my first golden mix in 1976. He was a golden/Pyr mix, and while I thought much of his behavior was cute, I couldn't attribute any of it to either breed because I was ignorant of their characteristics, never mind type or style. Having owned goldens since then, my knowledge grows with each golden owner, breeder, vet, forum, etc. that I frequent. Sometimes I know a great deal more than a novice golden owner, sometimes I know a great deal less than another owner. Each encounter is an opportunity to know more factual information about these dogs that I love. Why in the world do so many folks get their shorts in a twist when someone shares a lifetime of knowledge with them? I don't get it.


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

Finn's Fan said:


> I don't understand at all why people are offended when others who know more about a subject try to educate them about that subject.


It's all in how you do it. I just got off a night shift, so bear with me as I struggle to be coherent. Before I became a nurse, I was a teacher for 18 years. Strangely, during my nursing studies we learned to apply the same triad regarding human communication and relations I'd already studied while becoming a teacher many moons ago:

It consists of *knowledge*, then* experience,* and finally* people skills* (in french: savoir, savoir faire, savoir être...literally "knowledge", "knowing how", and "knowing how to be".

In essence, the first two are only going to benefit one person-- yourself-- unless you also possess the third. 

Now, case at hand: I'm new to an internet forum on a subject I'm really interested in, and all happy I post a question that's important to me. Internet forums are all about tone, because we don't see the people behind the avatars.

The first response refers to my question as though I "throw it by" someone (aggressive image) and uses the term "turn off" (open the thread in a new tab and follow along with me, I'm going in chronological order here)

Ouch. There goes my happy mood. But I step back, explain where my question came from, say "my mistake" but add I detected a "tone" or reprimand (which, from an objective point of view--ok, mine-- is a fair call).

A second person tells me "not to get my shorts in a knot". Personally, once I read that I don't really care what he writes after that. He's talking down to me.

Yet I take a deep breath and once again respond "like I said, I should have said" and add "thank you to those of you who were nice enough to explain this to me here or in a private message *in a way that guided me in a kind way*, the way you approach someone makes all the difference....moving on.... "

But my message is totally lost, because by now, other opinionated people have had their buttons pushed, grab a flag and go riding into the battle, and the subject is quickly divided into "knows" and "know nots"...and team-based terms like "ignorant" and "clueless" versus "pompous" and "know-it-all" fly around the room and bounce off the walls while the spectators duck--and from time to time try to redirect the conversation in a more productive way.

What's a shame, is that behind all the "attitude" is a lot of interesting information and many good discussion points. But people who are upset are not in listening mode; they just want to get their own point of view out there.

Breeders, as "teachers" you may have a wealth of knowledge and experience to offer, but unless you weed out judgemental language and make an effort to understand and welcome before you try to educate, your words will be lost. Suggestion: take a deeeeeeeep breath, grit your teeth, smile, and try "Hi...what's an American golden to you?"

From there, you just might have a shot at getting your point across.

I'm going to bed.



​


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

People interpret things how they want to interpret them, often (as in this case) the same sentence could be interpreted as a "reprimand" or as a "heads up." Although when the author of the post actually says it's a "heads up" perhaps people shouldn't get their panties in a knot and we can avoid future threads like this. People skills need to swing both ways, and I can't quite figure out why rudeness from some people (including many new members) on the board is often tolerated and accepted and more experienced members (I'm referring to PG, K9-Design, etc) are chastized for responding and labeled the big bad bullying breeders. Quite the double standard.

But this thread has obviously run it's course. Maybe it should be closed???


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JazzSkye said:


> It's all in how you do it. I just got off a night shift, so bear with me as I struggle to be coherent. Before I became a nurse, I was a teacher for 18 years. Strangely, during my nursing studies we learned to apply the same triad regarding human communication and relations I'd already studied while becoming a teacher many moons ago:
> 
> It consists of *knowledge*, then* experience,* and finally* people skills* (in french: savoir, savoir faire, savoir être...literally "knowledge", "knowing how", and "knowing how to be".
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely 100% agree!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> People interpret things how they want to interpret them, often (as in this case) the same sentence could be interpreted as a "reprimand" or as a "heads up." Although when the author of the post actually says it's a "heads up" perhaps people shouldn't get their panties in a knot and we can avoid future threads like this. People skills need to swing both ways, and I can't quite figure out why rudeness from some people (including many new members) on the board is often tolerated and accepted and more experienced members (I'm referring to PG, K9-Design, etc) are chastized for responding and labeled the big bad bullying breeders. Quite the double standard.
> 
> But this thread has obviously run it's course. Maybe it should be closed???


I wasn't bothered by K-9's Designs first post at all. However when another poster said that perhaps people should get educated as not to look ignorant when talking to a breeder because of using the word "type". Please. The majority of golden purchasers are purchasing one for a family pet, not to breed, show or educate. I don't need to know the correct breeder terminology to purchase my pet and give him a loving home. If I am looking for a certain "look" I would probably say "type". Big deal.
And I would hope I wouldn't run across a breeder in my search that considered me ignorant for that.


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## Caesar's Buddy (May 25, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I wasn't bothered by K-9's Designs first post at all. However when another poster said that perhaps people should get educated as not to look ignorant when talking to a breeder because of using the word "type". Please. The majority of golden purchasers are purchasing one for a family pet, not to breed, show or educate. I don't need to know the correct breeder terminology to purchase my pet and give him a loving home. If I am looking for a certain "look" I would probably say "type". Big deal.
> And I would hope I wouldn't run across a breeder in my search that considered me ignorant for that.


That is pretty much what I was trying to say...

Pat


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## Caesar's Buddy (May 25, 2010)

I actually do appreciate the information that the breeders are expanding on. I have learned a lot from them. I am just a guy who loves Goldens, all I am looking for is a dog to love and be a companion. The information that they give is just way beyond what I need.

But, for those who need and want the information that is great. I hope I didn't offend anyone. (If I did, I apologize)

Pat


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> . People skills need to swing both ways, and I can't quite figure out why rudeness from some people (including many new members) on the board is often tolerated and accepted and more experienced members (I'm referring to PG, K9-Design, etc) are chastized for responding and labeled the big bad bullying breeders. Quite the double standard.


Maybe the label has something to do with word choice and tone? If the problem keeps repeating itself as you suggest, then likely there are "attitude" issues. They're rarely one-sided.

But stick with what happened here. I consider myself pretty neutral in this thread, but the words we use do have weight and meaning, and while I don't doubt K-9's good intentions for a second, I can understand how that very first reply might have been like a dash of cold water in the face. And also how other replies added fuel to the fire.

The new poster apologized twice for his misstep; not once did the experienced members you speak of say "sorry, wasn't my intention to jump on you." Experience has a responsibilty to temper and guide the discussion, has no hierarchical rank, and does not supercede common courtesy. I might add that coming from experienced professionals, talking down is also a turn-off for prospective clients.

Now that I'm awake, I'd also like to point out that GRF has posted a sticky recommending a “great” article by Bev Brown called “*What Exactly Is An "English" Golden Retriever?"* (second from top in this forum). This in itself acknowledges the existence of the terms “English” and “American” Golden, as well as the image behind them. A few direct quotes from the article:

"The perception among many of today’s American
Golden Retriever breeders is that the “English *type*” Goldens
are very different from the* American Goldens.*"

"As time went by, the breed standards in the U.S.,
Canada, and the UK were modified independently, which
may have further promoted a divergence in *type*"

"The breed in the U.S. today has a variety of *types*,"

"However, as mentioned
above,* it would be equally correct, or more so, to say
the dog is of “British type.*”

If educating the ignorant masses is so important, and wording is not a mere matter of semantics, this article should either be rewritten, or removed from the site, should it not?

What’s my point? That everyone has an opinion, and like everywhere else, even the so-called experts rarely agree. The only thing breeder and owner really need to be sure of is a) the quality of the puppy in question and b) the quality of the future home and owner in question, in terms of the affection and intelligent care provided--not on personal conviction as to what "style" of dog is being adopted.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

People seem to get their feathers ruffled too much when I use the term ignorance so I guess I shouldn't bother using it anymore in public forums where people put too much emphasis on connotation rather than denotation, and replace it with it's definition "lack of knowledge.". If I had said lack of knowledge rather than ignorance would that have been better?


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## Caesar's Buddy (May 25, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> I think this is going way too far. The puppy would suffer? Seriously?
> If a puppy buyer constantly referred to my dogs as "American goldens" after I repeatedly asked them not to and explained why, in great detail, there was no such thing as an "American golden" -- well guess what, I would think they were dense as concrete and they wouldn't get a puppy from me.


I can understand your thoughts if a buyer constantly referred to your dogs as American Goldens after you repeatedly asked them not to. That's not what I was talking about in my post.

I was trying to say that, if a breeder was constantly correcting me about things that were above my novice level, I would start to look at the session as going back to school. (Perhaps that is good for me) People like me are interested in finding a wonderful loving Golden to share our lives with.

I am not real concerned about dotting all the "i's and crossing the t's". Although there are many who are. Just not what I am interested in. 

I certainly do respect the knowledge and expertise that the breeders bring to the board, and perhaps I should have kept my novice mouth shut... LOL

Pat


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> People seem to get their feathers ruffled too much when I use the term ignorance so I guess I shouldn't bother using it anymore in public forums where people put too much emphasis on connotation rather than denotation, and replace it with it's definition "lack of knowledge.". If I had said lack of knowledge rather than ignorance would that have been better?


Maybe that's it, who knows. I'm not convinced that people wouldn't find a way for more experienced people to be considered mean and bullies, unless they stop educating and just post about bunnies and rainbows. 



> I wasn't bothered by K-9's Designs first post at all. However when another poster said that perhaps people should get educated as not to look ignorant when talking to a breeder because of using the word "type". Please. The majority of golden purchasers are purchasing one for a family pet, not to breed, show or educate. I don't need to know the correct breeder terminology to purchase my pet and give him a loving home. If I am looking for a certain "look" I would probably say "type". Big deal.
> And I would hope I wouldn't run across a breeder in my search that considered me ignorant for that.


I think it's a little silly to say that just because one is looking for a pet puppy they shouldn't be informed about the breed they are buying. No one is saying you NEED or HAVE to do anything, they were just trying to help! Personally, I don't want to look ignorant, uninformed, naive, etc in front of anyone if I can avoid it....and that's just not limited to goldens. But I ask questions and accept correction by more experienced folks and thank them for correcting me. That has happened to me a number of times on this forum and I was always happy that the more experienced people corrected me immediately to prevent ME from looking ignorant or uninformed going forward.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

JazzSkye said:


> It's all in how you do it. I just got off a night shift, so bear with me as I struggle to be coherent. Before I became a nurse, I was a teacher for 18 years. Strangely, during my nursing studies we learned to apply the same triad regarding human communication and relations I'd already studied while becoming a teacher many moons ago:
> 
> It consists of *knowledge*, then* experience,* and finally* people skills* (in french: savoir, savoir faire, savoir être...literally "knowledge", "knowing how", and "knowing how to be".
> 
> ...


Extremely well put, thank you.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

JazzSkye said:


> ...The new poster apologized twice for his misstep; not once did the experienced members you speak of say "sorry, wasn't my intention to jump on you." Experience has a responsibilty to temper and guide the discussion, has no hierarchical rank, and does not supercede common courtesy. I might add that coming from experienced professionals, talking down is also a turn-off for prospective clients....



This is the point I was trying to make: 

"Experience has a responsibilty to temper and guide the discussion, has no hierarchical rank, and does not supercede common courtesy."


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

mkd1401 said:


> Our family is looking for an American Golden male puppy within driving distance of the Chicago area, can anyone help with active breeders? We are interested in puppies available now or in May as we have a 6 mon old Yorkie & would like them close in age. Thanks!


Since this thread has been driven completely off a cliff in the wrong direction, there has been very few answers to the original queston, can anyone help with breeders within driving distance of the Chicago area?

The few suggestions that were posted have been buried in the muck and mire.

OP, I am sorry this has been your first experience with this board, because it really is a place with a wealth of information and really good people involved.


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Maybe that's it, who knows. I'm not convinced that people wouldn't find a way for more experienced people to be considered mean and bullies, unless they stop educating and just post about bunnies and rainbows...


Oh please, that's really reaching...the average masses aren't looking for education and hate when they get it? They all have massive inferiority complexes and "golden envy", is that it? :bowl:

I quote once again, the new poster...:*"thank you to those of you who were nice enough to explain this to me here or in a private message in a way that guided me in a kind way, the way you approach someone makes all the difference."

*Doesn't sound to me like he was against "education"...but like most people, when education looks more like discipline, no one but your exceptionally laid-back and submissive types is going to appreciate your efforts.


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> Since this thread has been driven completely off a cliff in the wrong direction, there has been very few answers to the original queston, can anyone help with breeders within driving distance of the Chicago area?


I wouldn't be surprised if we lost MKD a long time ago...he's probably decided to adopt a hamster after all this.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Maybe that's it, who knows. I'm not convinced that people wouldn't find a way for more experienced people to be considered mean and bullies, unless they stop educating and just post about bunnies and rainbows.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's a little silly to say that just because one is looking for a pet puppy* they shouldn't be informed about the breed they are buying.* No one is saying you NEED or HAVE to do anything, they were just trying to help! Personally, I don't want to look ignorant, uninformed, naive, etc in front of anyone if I can avoid it....and that's just not limited to goldens. But I ask questions and accept correction by more experienced folks and thank them for correcting me. That has happened to me a number of times on this forum and I was always happy that the more experienced people corrected me immediately to prevent ME from looking ignorant or uninformed going forward.


Nowhere in my post I said that people shouldn't be informed about the breed they are buying. I simply said most are purchasing for a family pet and not to *breed or educate. *And that most buyers could care less about the word "type" and "style" Not sure why you are twisting my post.......

I won't even comment about your first paragraph......really?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

JazzSkye said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if we lost MKD a long time ago...he's probably decided to adopt a hamster after all this.


I'm sure he will be just fine. There are alot of breeders out there.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Well, when it comes to twisting words... I just scanned all the posts here, and I really did not see the breeders who have been jumped on in this thread call anyone "ignorant" at all. I think that they've all been pretty polite, actually. Especially after having been told to "stick it", etc. As for tone, it's difficult to guage tone in an email or other such internet post. My posts are rarely about "bunnies and rainbows", and are designed simpy to relay facts. Flowery verbage and sugar coated terminolgy just isn't my style. Sorry if anyone is offended, particularly since that is never my intent. It does get tiresome, though, to be lectured about tone, etc, while others are permitted blatant rudeness, (telling people to stick it, calling them clowns and jerk___'s, etc). But, hey.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

JazzSkye said:


> Oh please, that's really reaching...the average masses aren't looking for education and hate when they get it? They all have massive inferiority complexes and "golden envy", is that it? :bowl:
> 
> I quote once again, the new poster...:*"thank you to those of you who were nice enough to explain this to me here or in a private message in a way that guided me in a kind way, the way you approach someone makes all the difference."
> 
> *Doesn't sound to me like he was against "education"...but like most people, when education looks more like discipline, no one but your exceptionally laid-back and submissive types is going to appreciate your efforts.


Okay, we get it. You felt that they were rude. I truly don't think that they were trying to be rude and that they were just trying to help. I'm very sorry you felt that way, I truly am. I would never want a new member to feel like they couldn't ask questions or be newer to the game without being ridiculed. But, I think that responding in this way is not helping anything. I welcome you here and I hope we can all get to know you and follow you along with your puppy search process and the life of your puppy.

That being said, these members are extremely good and knowledgable people and have helped many people who really needed it with their dogs. I am standing up for them. Please stop being rude to them, they don't deserve that treatment. I don't want to see respected long time members who I look up to and who have helped me so much talked to or about like this. I would really appreciate it if you kept it polite and respectful.


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

vcm5 said:


> Okay, we get it. *You felt that they were rude. I welcome you here and I hope we can all get to know you and follow you along with your puppy search process and the life of your puppy.
> *
> That being said, these members are extremely good and knowledgable people and have helped many people who really needed it with their dogs. I am standing up for them. Please stop being rude to them, they don't deserve that treatment. I don't want to see respected long time members who I look up to and who have helped me so much talked to or about like this. *I would really appreciate it if you kept it polite and respectful.*


I'm not the new one here; I'm not looking for a puppy. I have the two beauties you see in my avatar. You're preaching to the choir regarding the knowledge and goodness of the people here. And I fail to see where I was rude to anyone in defending both the new member concerned, and my point of view. I'm not sure you've followed the posts.

But thanks for the (belated) welcome:wave:


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

JazzSkye said:


> I'm not the new one here; I'm not looking for a puppy. I have the two beauties you see in my avatar. You're preaching to the choir regarding the knowledge and goodness of the people here. And I fail to see where I was rude to anyone in defending both the new member concerned, and my point of view. I'm not sure you've followed the posts.
> 
> But thanks for the (belated) welcome:wave:


I think I got mixed up in my copy and pasting!


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## JazzSkye (Aug 1, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Well, when it comes to twisting words... I just scanned all the posts here, and I really did not see the breeders who have been jumped on in this thread call anyone "ignorant" at all.


I quote: "*Really they were just trying to help someone not look ignorant when talking to breeders. Calling up a breeder in America and telling them you want an American type golden is like wearing a giant sign sign that says "Clueless.*"

Which is what our new poster did, so by deduction he's already ignorant and clueless. Just imagine how it might feel to read that when you've reached out for information.

Then followed a lecture about using the word "type" as well as "American type"...when in fact Bev Brown's article on this very website uses the term, as well as the word "type" extensively. There are discrepancies between the expertise on this thread being presented _as absolute truth,_ and what has been published and posted elsewhere on the Forum as a _reference. _No one's yet stepped up to say "well, I don't agree but I guess even a newbie is allowed an opinion"



Pointgold said:


> I think that they've all been pretty polite, actually. Especially after having been told to "stick it", etc.


Let's put that into context:

Quote: 
_ *"Clearly you didn't spend any time researching golden retrievers on the GRCA or AKC websites, or any published book on golden retrievers....see, I was nice before. "*
_
Response: "Excuse me while I try very hard not to tell you where to stick it, how dare you try to tell me what research I did or did not do! "

Judgemental remarks made in public inspire defensive responses. Human nature 101.

The further you get from the beginning of the thread, the easier it is to remold it into something else, because people don't want to go back and go through it again.

I know I'm being stubborn. But this will keep happening unless everyone is willing to look at his/her own way of communicating and imagine what effect it might have on others. And regardless of whether you're new or an expert, "sorry I came on too strong" should be within everyone's ability. 

So: sorry I'm being a pest on this, but it's important. I'm done:crossfing



​


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

> I know I'm being stubborn. But this will keep happening unless everyone is willing to look at his/her own way of communicating and imagine what effect it might have on others. And regardless of whether you're new or an expert, "sorry I came on too strong" should be within everyone's ability.


It's called the internet. This is how it goes on message boards. 
I'm not going to apologize for coming on too strong if I don't feel like I did (see : my initial post in this thread, which was completely innocuous).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

JazzSkye said:


> I quote: "*Really they were just trying to help someone not look ignorant when talking to breeders. Calling up a breeder in America and telling them you want an American type golden is like wearing a giant sign sign that says "Clueless.*"
> 
> Which is what our new poster did, so by deduction he's already ignorant and clueless. Just imagine how it might feel to read that when you've reached out for information


don't see that as coming on too strong when it was said in explanation to the OP as why he had been corrected in the first place when he took offense to that. Yes, if you don't know something you have an ignorance of that issue. It wasn't meant as an insult, it was an explanation. I'm ignorant about a lot of topics, I'll freely admit that - doesn't mean I'm a stupid person, just means that I'm not as familiar with that area.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> don't see that as coming on too strong when it was said in explanation to the OP as why he had been corrected in the first place when he took offense to that. Yes, if you don't know something you have an ignorance of that issue. It wasn't meant as an insult, it was an explanation. I'm ignorant about a lot of topics, I'll freely admit that - doesn't mean I'm a stupid person, just means that I'm not as familiar with that area.


Maybe we should have the mods take down the sticky with Bev Browns article. Her use of "type" is not looking good for her intellegence right now.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Why is this thread still open? Mods???


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Maybe we should have the mods take down the sticky with Bev Browns article. Her use of "type" is not looking good for her intellegence right now.


Please note that the argument in this thread has been with calling a dog an "American Golden." NOT American type. While I think an "american type" golden is a rather elusive creature, being that there are many different types/styles of goldens in America, it's a descriptive term, rather than a label attempting to create a new breed.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Why is this thread still open? Mods???


Why close the thread?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Why close the thread?


I think it's run it's course, don't you think? I will just unsubscribe so I don't keep getting notifications.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Please note that the argument in this thread has been with calling a dog an "American Golden." NOT American type. While I think an "american type" golden is a rather elusive creature, being that there are many different types/styles of goldens in America, it's a descriptive term, rather than a label attempting to create a new breed.


And then it morphed into "type" verses "style" and labeling "the less experienced" for not knowing the difference.

I think I will stick to the "look"


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

The original question the OP posted was could someone recommend a good breeder in their area. This thread has gone on 11 page and I think there are maybe 3 mentions of possible breeders. The rest of the 11 pages is just a continued pile on that does not offer an answer to the original question. 

This thread needs to be closed, it is no longer serving a purpose except to continue an arguement.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> The original question the OP posted was could someone recommend a good breeder in their area. This thread has gone on 11 page and I think there are maybe 3 mentions of possible breeders. The rest of the 11 pages is just a continued pile on that does not offer an answer to the original question.
> 
> This thread needs to be closed, it is no longer serving a purpose except to continue an arguement.


As long as people are being civil, why close it? There is alot of good points being brought up here IMHO.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

JazzSkye said:


> I quote: "*Really they were just trying to help someone not look ignorant when talking to breeders. Calling up a breeder in America and telling them you want an American type golden is like wearing a giant sign sign that says "Clueless.*"
> 
> Which is what our new poster did, so by deduction he's already ignorant and clueless. Just imagine how it might feel to read that when you've reached out for information.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but saying that trying to help prevent someone from appearing ignorant is not the same as calling them ignorant and the person who made that statement was defending a breeder who did NOT call the person ignorant.

As for putting something in context, you really didn't. K9 Design's response that you bolded was out of context, in that it actually followed a post that was factually incorrect: *"I researched it immensely before deciding on a dog and what I found was there are 2 types of goldens as stated above. The "English" breed is the image that comes to mind when one thinks of a golden. The "American" breed is a smaller golden. They do not grow to the standard size of the "English" golden". *
So, in context, K9 Design's reply was valid, and to the point, and not judgmental but matter of fact. I don't think it warranted the " "Excuse me while I try very hard not to tell you where to stick it, how dare you try to tell me what research I did or did not do! " 

reply, Human Nature 101 or not. 
I've gone to the beginning of the thread. I don't think the breeders were being judgemental, bullying, etc. I've already resigned myself to the fact that no matter what or how I say ANYthing, it will be deemed to be bullying, judgemental, condescending, mean, etc etc etc. It's just the way it is. I'm not apologizing for how another person chooses to view my posts. "Coming on too strong"? If that is what someone thinks, so be it. I am what I am. If I help even ONE person or ONE dog, I'm happy, because it is better than none.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

This thread is going nowhere. I am closing it.


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