# WC - do I need a force fetch?



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I want ducks!!!
Sorry, no clue, but look forward to the answers from others!


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I want ducks!!!
> Sorry, no clue, but look forward to the answers from others!


I actually have 2 lives one as pets and about 6 wild ones in the freezer ready for training!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'd prefer the frozen ones, please....


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

what will you be training them to do ? :



damita said:


> about 6 wild ones in the freezer ready for training!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

damita said:


> Question to you all is - can a WC (Canadian Working certificate) be successfully completed without teaching a force fetch?
> 
> Can anyone recall any good books that are easy for a beginner and don't rely on a force fetch? I went to the Canadian National with a friend last year who does field work and it was so beautiful I cried!
> 
> ...


Rebecca,

There are skills your dog needs, and so you need them. But they're only needs if you desire high performance standards for your dog in the field. If you don't mind failing at tests, train poorly. Train just a little. Give your dog the minimum, and he'll give it right back! Sound appealing?

Okay, let's talk straight about training. I'm sure you have a mental picture of force fetch as a process much like putting Fido on the rack! But, like so many elements of training, it has everything to do with knowing what you're doing, why you're doing it, and how to go about it. Force fetching a dog does not need to live up to its populace billing, which so commonly frames it as brutal. Only people are brutal.

These negative stories about force fetch are perpetuated by people who don't know what they're talking about, or what they're doing, or they wouldn't be so eager to publicly confess their ignorance about it. There are non-force books on the market - always have been. They are nearly all superficial snap shots of the training process, written mostly for marketing, and not so much to produce reliable performing retrievers for fieldwork.

It's up to you, but if you want to know about the training process, or any part of it, just ask.

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Live dangerously. Get a little knowledge." ~ from the movie _'Lord love a duck'_.

EvanG


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

OK I too am VERY new at this, and want to learn more. I am hoping to work on the fetching techniques over the winter and hope my young golden will pick up the bird. She goes after it, she is un sure about picking it up. I am also on a retriever training board, and I was recommended there to pick up Smartwork by our above poster  and another book called The Smart Fetch book. 

I was cautioned on that site that you can't really learn from a book, and my experience in what I have done with horses and dogs is "I agree" but it can give me some ideas where to start while I find what my options are. 

Where I train agility the owner of the facility does hunt tests and trains, I am hoping she will put together a winter class on fetching. I was also instructed to join a club. Are you that remote there are really no clubs near by? 

I too have frozen fowl in my freezer! Dog people you want to caution people before they enter your freezer. LOL


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> I was recommended there to pick up *Smartwork* by our above poster  and another book called The *Smart Fetch* book.
> 
> I was cautioned on that site that you can't really learn from a book, and my experience in what I have done with horses and dogs is "I agree" but it can give me some ideas where to start while I find what my options are.


Have you seen the SmartFetch DVD? It's a 2-disc, 2 1/2 hour very detailed program showing the techniques, expected issues, solutions, and even 'reads' to watch for from "Hold" all the way to starting Pattern Blinds. Ties together with and serves to augment the book of the same name. Literally hundreds of brand new trainers learn from this course and successfully force fetch their own dogs each year.

One unique aspect of my system is that I go with it. Anytime you have a question, I'm on forums all over the web, including this one. You can also email or PM me anytime. If needed we have a personal consultation service by phone. You can do this.

EvanG


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I went through this issue with the "forced retrieve" in obedience. You CAN teach a decent retrieve using positive methods. I used the reliable "click and treat". It took longer than the people in my class who used the "ear pinch" forced retrieve. However...I now have an enthusiastic retriever who can't wait to go to retrieve his...whatever..
My coach, who is a proponent of forced retrieves, was so impressed that she has referred other students who want to explore this method to me. Takes patience and persistence, but it works.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

But there is a huge difference between a 40 foot retrieve across a ring and what dogs are expected to do in the field. I do force fetch my dogs for both venues (start with a shaped retrieve using clicker and treats, but later add in an ear pinch), but I think it would be much more difficult to get where you want in the field without a force fetch than it would be in obedience.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Mighty Casey's Mom said:


> I went through this issue with the "forced retrieve" in obedience. You CAN teach a decent retrieve using positive methods. I used the reliable "click and treat". It took longer than the people in my class who used the "ear pinch" forced retrieve. However...I now have an enthusiastic retriever who can't wait to go to retrieve his...whatever..
> My coach, who is a proponent of forced retrieves, was so impressed that she has referred other students who want to explore this method to me. Takes patience and persistence, but it works.


I'll second that, and add that if the behavior is truly fluent, it will hold up in the field on a bird. Granted, it will take a long time to get true fluency under those conditions, but I believe it can be done.

FWIW, I put a JH on Quiz w/o a forced retrieve and he only failed 1 test, and it was due to a poor mark, not anything having to do with his hold/retrieval of the bird.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> But there is a huge difference between a 40 foot retrieve across a ring and what dogs are expected to do in the field. I do force fetch my dogs for both venues (start with a shaped retrieve using clicker and treats, but later add in an ear pinch), but I think it would be much more difficult to get where you want in the field without a force fetch than it would be in obedience.


Exactly.

FF is not only about picking up and holding a bird. Lots of dogs do this naturally or with a little coaxing, and never have a problem dropping or blinking birds. However FF teaches fundamental skills that are invaluable in advanced training. 
Yes you absolutely can get a WC/JH without FF if your dog has a good natural hold, likes birds, and you're willing to toss away a few entry fees if the dog runs into something he's not been taught to overcome in a testing situation. 
Most people end up FFing their entry-level dogs because they drop birds and won't deliver to hand. If that's what took to convince them to FF in the first place, and their goal is a JH/WC/WCX (no handling), then they will probably never see the true benefit and value of FF. It will be a means to an end, not part of the program. That's neither here nor there but know there is more value to it than getting the dog to hold a bird.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am working with a field instructor who teaches a thorough fetch program but WITHOUT ear pinches, toe yanks or an e-collar. It is kind of a back to basics approach where the dog is taught what is expected step by step, but with praise and rewards rather than corrections based. My instructor does very well without force, but as mentioned there is a structured program for teaching fetch. 

I would hate to think that if my dog fails a test, it might be blamed on the lack of force fetch rather than holes in my training; 

In the end, it needs to be a personal decision. Yes, you may donate entry fees but the generous donations are not limited to those who do not force-fetch


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Exactly.
> 
> FF is not only about picking up and holding a bird. Lots of dogs do this naturally or with a little coaxing, and never have a problem dropping or blinking birds. However FF teaches fundamental skills that are invaluable in advanced training....Most people end up FFing their entry-level dogs because they drop birds and won't deliver to hand.


Correct. And that, of course, leads us right back to the many people who do not understand the process, and think they can replace force fetch with a clicker. But clickers (or other OC mechanisms) represent only a portion of the full training cycle. Force fetch is a different element of the process, and it deepens and formalizes training to a higher level of reliability.

Teach, Force, Reinforce; often misunderstood, but still is the full cycle of training. But, once you've given your dog a fair, temperate, but thorough education, you'll see a change in that animal. They become more secure, more stable and sure of what their job is. The end result is also a more reliable dog - one that succeeds at his work far more often than he fails, and that makes for a truly happy and expectant dog!

Force fetch has become a standard component of most successful modern methods for developing retrievers for fieldwork, and for good reason. These dogs love doing what they do. Like any athlete, they like it more...have more _fun_ at doing it when they're successful. The more consistently they succeed, the more often their job is fulfilling and rewarding. It's just pure logic, and you can see it day to day in the field.

EvanG


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

damita said:


> Can anyone recall any good books that are easy for a beginner and don't rely on a force fetch? I went to the Canadian National with a friend last year who does field work and it was so beautiful I cried!
> 
> Thanks
> Rebecca


I reread your post and have a few books to recommend

Positive Gun Dogs by Jim Barry, Mary Emmen and Susan Smith 
Motivational Training for the Field by Lorie C Jolly

I would also like to say that regardless of how you decide to train the retrieve and handling, you will probably find good sources for training ideas, drills and problem solving useful. There is a selection of recommeded reading on the GRCA site

www.grca.org/events/field/field_read.html

I can recommend just about anything from James B Spencer and Evan's SmartWorks system (yes, I may not be a force fetch advocate but these books are in a prime spot in my library .. grins) and am really enjoying and using the Carol Cassity book.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

I have used the ear pinch but only when he absolutely refuses to go for the retrieve & knowing that he knows how! One ear pinch & then next retrieve is done with enthusiasm - he's just testing me!:uhoh:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Gwen said:


> I have used the ear pinch but only when he absolutely refuses to go for the retrieve & knowing that he knows how! One ear pinch & then next retrieve is done with enthusiasm - he's just testing me!:uhoh:


Hi Gwen, I'm not saying that this is not working for you but -- this sort of training gives FF a bad name. This is NOT force fetch. This is applying pain to get a desired result rather than training the dog to do it 100% of the time.

If he "knew how" he wouldn't refuse to retrieve. If he knew his only option was to pick up the object then he wouldn't refuse to do it. Clearly the dog doesn't understand his job and has not been reinforced in a systematic way. He isn't "testing you" he's confused or unaware. FF is NOT pinching a dogs ear because they didn't pick something up.

How did you learn to do this? Did you follow step-by-step instructions like Evan's SmartFetch, Mike Lardy books, or any of the many obedience books that FF to a dumbell? If not I would suggest going back and following one of these programs. You will see a much higher degree of success and your dog will understand the corrections he is given. If you are having to give the same correction (ear pinch) multiple times over a course of time for the same infraction, obviously it is not working, and the dog does not understand why you are doing it.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*And that, of course, leads us right back to the many people who do not understand the process, and think they can replace force fetch with a clicker.*

No, I think I can replace the negative reinforcement (application of aversive that is removed once desired behavior is achieved) with positive reinforcement (rewarding a systematically-built correct behavior).

*Force fetch is a different element of the process, and it deepens and formalizes training to a higher level of reliability.*

Different how? Scientifically, it still has to fall w/in the 4 quads of OC. As for "...training to a higher level of reliability," that is your opinion, based on your experience. IMO, it would be most polite (professional courtesy?) to state it as such.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> As for "...training to a higher level of reliability," that is your opinion, based on your experience. IMO, it would be most polite (professional courtesy?) to state it as such.


I think it's safe to say Evan has an abundance of experience to back up his opinion.
That and his opinion is shared by 99% of the trainers with a similar amount of experience in retriever training.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I enjoy reading everyone's different viewpoints, I learn from each one. 
And I think everyone is entitled to treat their own dog exactly how they feel most comfortable training.
There's room for all of us.
That said....I know Evan has trained hundreds of retrievers to very high levels of success in the field, so I do tend to weight his opinion pretty heavily. Success speaks for itself.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I enjoy reading everyone's different viewpoints, I learn from each one.
> And I think everyone is entitled to treat their own dog exactly how they feel most comfortable training.
> There's room for all of us.
> That said....I know Evan has trained hundreds of retrievers to very high levels of success in the field, so I do tend to weight his opinion pretty heavily. Success speaks for itself.



Agree totally. 

Personally, I tend to credit the opinion of those that have had success with multiple dogs - success not just including titles, of course, but happy, enthusiastic dogs who know their job and are willing and eager to do it. After all, one dog could be a fluke - I like to look at proven success over a period of time with multiple dogs.


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## damita (Jun 4, 2009)

whooo - thought it was such a simple question - didn't mean to stir the pot - honestly. I am going to have to read and re-read these posts more to understand... I think I may be misunderstanding the idea of FF - I assume it was basically hurting the dog until they did the correct behaviour and then stopping the pain.

I am not looking for a high level of field training - honestly I don't even really hunt much but I would love to keep the versatility of the breed going. I have donated entries in every avenue of training I have entered (confirmation, rally, obedience) and don't have a problem with it - what I want to do is keep my "soft" girl from shutting down on me and keep her loving what she is doing. I am going to re-read the WC standards as well as I believe it is supposed to be more of a test of natural ability with minimal handling but want to thank everyone for thier responses!


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

K9-Design said:


> Hi Gwen, I'm not saying that this is not working for you but -- this sort of training gives FF a bad name. This is NOT force fetch. This is applying pain to get a desired result rather than training the dog to do it 100% of the time.
> 
> If he "knew how" he wouldn't refuse to retrieve. If he knew his only option was to pick up the object then he wouldn't refuse to do it. Clearly the dog doesn't understand his job and has not been reinforced in a systematic way. He isn't "testing you" he's confused or unaware. FF is NOT pinching a dogs ear because they didn't pick something up.
> 
> How did you learn to do this? Did you follow step-by-step instructions like Evan's SmartFetch, Mike Lardy books, or any of the many obedience books that FF to a dumbell? If not I would suggest going back and following one of these programs. You will see a much higher degree of success and your dog will understand the corrections he is given. If you are having to give the same correction (ear pinch) multiple times over a course of time for the same infraction, obviously it is not working, and the dog does not understand why you are doing it.


Sorry, but I disagree with you on this one.... Nyg can be very stubborn on a very rare occasion & just won't retrieve. He basically looks at you as if to say "Stick it!" 
ONE ear pinch lasting less than 10 seconds is more than sufficient to put him "back on track". He does know what he's supposed to do.

As far as where did I learn the ear pinch.... well, I've been doing obedience training for over 37 years and I first used the ear pinch on a labrador retriever in a formal utility training class in 1973.

Do I like using the ear pinch - No, I don't like hurting my boy even for 10 seconds but it works & has very lasting results.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The way it was explained to me this past weekend is that it's a method of applying the minimum amount of pressure (whatever that might mean to you and your dog) necessary to make the dog realize that he has a simple choice. He can do what he's supposed to and remove the pressure, or he can continue to feel the pressure. It's up to him. I was told that that's the basics behind force fetching, force breaking, force training, whatever you want to call it. 
I'm not citing this "truth", just passing on what I was told which made me look at the notion of FF in a whole new light.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Even 3 or 4 dogs is not enough of a database to say a method works, IMO. You've got to get into many double digits...

There's a very well known trainer (obed.) around here whose family also trains hunting retrievers. This obed. trainer is noted for using an electronic collar when ring training her dogs. A lot of people are VERY opposed to her methods.
But I've seen her show many, many times and her dogs are ALWAYS happy, outgoing, excellent working dogs. I've never seen one cower, try to escape her, run from the ring, etc. Their personalities show that they love what they are doing. She has put OTCHs on more dogs than I'll probably ever own, as well as all sorts of field titles. I'm sure she's invited to the NOC yet again this year.
So obviously, what she's doing works for her and more importantly, for her dogs. That doesn't mean I'm going to do it, but I'm certainly not going to belittle her for doing it, either. 




gabbys mom said:


> Agree totally.
> 
> Personally, I tend to credit the opinion of those that have had success with multiple dogs - success not just including titles, of course, but happy, enthusiastic dogs who know their job and are willing and eager to do it. After all, one dog could be a fluke - I like to look at proven success over a period of time with multiple dogs.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I enjoy reading everyone's different viewpoints, I learn from each one.
> And I think everyone is entitled to treat their own dog exactly how they feel most comfortable training.
> There's room for all of us.
> That said....I know Evan has trained hundreds of retrievers to very high levels of success in the field, so I do tend to weight his opinion pretty heavily. Success speaks for itself.



My thoughts exactly, great post!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> I think it's safe to say Evan has an abundance of experience to back up his opinion.
> That and his opinion is shared by 99% of the trainers with a similar amount of experience in retriever training.


And I'm not contesting his experience or results... just saying I think it's polite state an opinion (even when based on personal experience) as such.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

damita said:


> whooo - thought it was such a simple question - didn't mean to stir the pot - honestly.


Rebecca,

I, for one, am delighted you asked. Force fetch is and has been the long standing subject of debate and misinformation for decades. That's why I wrote a book about it, followed by a 2 1/2 hour DVD. This is not something people seem to easily wrap their minds around. A _worse_ choice would have been for you not to have asked!


damita said:


> I am going to have to read and re-read these posts more to understand... I think I may be misunderstanding the idea of FF - I assume it was basically hurting the dog until they did the correct behaviour and then stopping the pain.


Many people make that same assumption, and are just as mistaken. It isn't the big scary thing it's often presumed to be. Or, as an old coach once said "It's easy when you know how". The know-how is readily available, and the results are more than worth the effort.





damita said:


> I am not looking for a high level of field training - honestly I don't even really hunt much but I would love to keep the versatility of the breed going. I have donated entries in every avenue of training I have entered (confirmation, rally, obedience) and don't have a problem with it


I'll take you at your word. But I have a few questions for you about that. They will sound like I'm trying to make fun of you by asking, at first. But I'm not asking for myself. I'm asking for you. Think through this logically, and make a wise decision. You say "I am not looking for a high level of field training". Consider these questions, and just answer to yourself, for yourself. They're answers that _should_ mean more to you than to me.
What skills don't you want your dog to have?
What commands don't you want your dog to obey?
What is an acceptable ratio of disobedience?
How often is it okay for your dog to fail?
At what point will you say that your dog is working at too high a level to suit you?
Would it really bother you if people began complementing you on your dog's exceptional field performance?
I'm going to share a secret with you that is normally reserved for people who attend my seminars. But I think you could stand to hear this, not only for your sake, but also for your dog. Ready?

Dog training is *fun*! :--appalled:
I know...pretty shocking stuff, huh?  If you enjoy the time spent training your dog, imagine how much fun it will be when the results are better? Think it over. :--happy:


damita said:


> what I want to do is keep my "soft" girl from shutting down on me and keep her loving what she is doing.


Bless your heart. That's what I would want, too. That is the greater good that results from properly force fetching a dog. I understand that the popular perception is that it's all about a hand delivery. But delivery to hand is more a co-benefit than the focus. 

In order to keep any one post from being excessively long, I'll post a portion of SmartFetch in my next post. Enjoy! And thanks again for asking this important question!

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Stephanie,

I studied under two Hall of Fame trainers to learn my craft. For the record, I’ve been proving my opinions on dog training to be effective for three decades. The results of my own work, and now the results of others who use my method (http://rushcreekpress.com/page8champions.html , http://rushcreekpress.com/page7testimonials.html ) constitute real evidence of the consistent efficacy of the Smartwork method. To that point, I would add that when I state that a certain technique works, and explain _how_ it works, I am no longer offering opinion. I’m stating fact. This a result of over thirty years of fieldwork. 


Opinion: A view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter.
Fact: A piece of information presented as having objective reality.
Now, finally, substantive and correct information about force fetching; its goals and objectives. That is what was originally asked about.

*The Myths*

More appropriately, there are more misperceptions than myths surrounding the process of force fetching retrievers. I think it starts with the term _force._ To the novice trainer/dog lover that word summons visions of a dog being thrashed or brutalized in some way or another. There are stories, some true, some contrived, about harsh measures being used to force fetch, like using bottle openers, pliers, etc. Nothing like that will appear as a suggestion in this text because it has nothing to do with how I approach it. Let’s start there and clear the air about that subject.

ØForce: In retriever training this is a term that describes the use of pressure to achieve a sure and reliable response.*Influence that moves something,*says the dictionary*. *The amount of pressure is specified more by the dog than by the trainer. Often very little actual pressure is needed.
Ø Pressure: something that affects thoughts and behavior in a powerful way, usually in the form of several outside influences working together persuasively.

Nowhere in any definition of these terms is abuse or brutality, nor should it be. Like many things, force and pressure are either good or bad depending on how they are applied. 

Another misperception is often the assumption that retrievers do all of their retrieving functions by nature, and shouldn’t need to be forced. Frankly, about all that dogs do by nature is to chase after motion, and follow their curiosity about what they smell. We cultivate the rest, both passively and through the use of pressure. Even the most basic puppy-fetch conditioning we all do to get them started is an act we contrive. These dogs retrieve out of self-centered impulses. Bringing birds to us is not a nature-driven act. Thankfully, it can be easily engineered!

Take a well-bred pup and turn him loose in a fenced yard for three years, or so. Leave him strictly to the influences of nature. Then go out one day and see how well he does on the type of retrieving work that would make him useful in game conservation. Compare his work to even an average gun dog with amateur training. How do you think it would come out? No brainer! Whatever natural gifts a dog may have, without some kind of guidance they will tend to be of little value.

It’s not a negative statement that retrievers need training to do the work we need them to do in the field and marsh. That type of work requires a dog to have good natural abilities, but also to be taught how to put those abilities to work because the skills and functions we require are _our_ idea. We invented them. It’s okay. That’s why dogs and trainers are so often referred to as a team. Both contribute to the effort.

*The Reality*



First of all, force fetch is more than just one thing. It is a definable process with clear goals. But, within the process are several steps or phases. Those steps will be laid out later, but first let’s examine the goals.

To establish a standard for acceptable mouth habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to maintain those habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to assure compliance with the command to retrieve.
To form the foundation for impetus (momentum).
Pressure conditioning.
Mouth habits include such important items as fetching on command, even when your dog may be distracted, or moody, or any number of things that might interfere with compliance. Sure, you may get away for years without having such problems, but being smart and being lucky are not the same things. Force fetch gives you a tool to handle this when it comes up, plus some insurance that it is less likely to come up due to this training. 

Along with compulsion issues we need to mention a proper hold, and delivery on command. If my pheasant is punctured I want it to be from pellets, not teeth. That actually covers some ground in all of the first three categories.

Let’s spend a little time on number four. Lots of people use the terms _momentum_ and _style_ interchangeably. I think it’s important to distinguish between the two because of how they relate to this subject. Force fetch is the foundation of trained momentum, and provides a springboard into subsequent steps of basic development. Style has little to do with this. Here’s why.

ØStyle: A combination of speed, enthusiasm, and just plain hustle that you see in a dog going toward a fall. Style is the product of natural desire and athleticism. 
ØMomentum: In a retriever, the compulsion from the dog’s point of origin; defined in the dictionary as “the force possessed by a body in motion, *Measure of movement: *a quantity that expresses the motion of a body and its resistance to slowing down. It is equal to the product of the body’s mass and velocity”.

Clearly, this quality is a tremendously valuable asset in the running of blinds and overcoming diversion pressure. It even applies to running long marks, and/or marks through tough cover or terrain. When you need a dog to drive hundreds of yards against the draining influences of terrain, cover, re-entries, and all of the real and perceived factors that are so commonly momentum-robbing, having a dog with a reservoir of momentum is immensely valuable. Force fetch is where that reservoir is established, and can be built upon.

From the foundation of a _forced_ fetch most modern methods progress through stages that continue to build on this principle. Stick fetch, Collar Condition to fetch, Walking fetch, Force to pile, and Water force are all extensions of the work we do in ear pinch or toe hitch, which are popular means to get it all going. When a dog has finished such a course the result is an animal far more driven, with much more resolve to overcome obstacles and distance and distractions.

Lest we forget ~

I am not suggesting that we harm or abuse dogs in any of this force work I’ve spoken of. The late Jim Kappes said, _“A properly forced dog shouldn’t look forced”._ I completely agree. Momentum and style are distinct terms, each with their own meanings, as pertains to retrievers. I firmly believe that both are traits that should co-exist in a well-trained retriever.

EvanG


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> There's a very well known trainer (obed.) around here whose family also trains hunting retrievers. This obed. trainer is noted for using an electronic collar when ring training her dogs. A lot of people are VERY opposed to her methods.
> 
> She is a terrific trainer and dog handler. Can't argue with success and happy dogs.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

my4goldens said:


> hotel4dogs said:
> 
> 
> > There's a very well known trainer (obed.) around here whose family also trains hunting retrievers. This obed. trainer is noted for using an electronic collar when ring training her dogs. A lot of people are VERY opposed to her methods.
> ...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well I'll add my two cents but in separate posts.
First to your question can you attain a WC with out the FF.

Absolutely. It truly depends on the natural abilities of the dog. If it has the drive to go out pick up both birds regardelss of their condition and return to the line with them then go to water for two more birds and be willing to re-enter the water for the second then you will get your WC.

However if you are like the HUGE majority who begin with very low goals and expectations and then get hooked by your dog's reaction to doing what the breed was bred to do you will then find yourself raising your own bar and that is when you may regret not having set a solid foundation for you and the dog.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Depends on where "around here" is. If it's Vancouver it could be Anne Everett. Her dogs are not only OTCH's, they're MH's, and they're QAA. Or, it could be Janice Gunn in Abbotsford. She's made even more OTCH's and a couple field champions. All are Goldens.

















John Gunn handling Stanley at a recent National field championship stake
*FC AFC OTCH FTCH AFTCH MOTCH TNT's Stanley Steamer, MH, FDHF, OBHF, Am. OTCH, UDX, FDHF, OBHF, OS *

There is not now, nor has there ever been a more titled Golden Retriever, or in more venues of competition. My own young dog "Moose" is one of his kids!

EvanG


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

damita said:


> .... I think I may be misunderstanding the idea of FF - I assume it was basically hurting the dog until they did the correct behaviour and then stopping the pain.


As others have stated this is perhaps the biggest misconception of the FF as well as the e-collar. 
"Pain" is not and should never be the goal. And in my opinion niether of these methods should be used till the dog knows the basic command you are training. They are used to REINFORCE the commands not TEACH them. 
You start out with the minimum amout of pressure and then increase just till you see a reaction and then take it back DOWN one notch. Probably with 95% of the dogs that is all the "pressure" you will nedd to know. And understand some dogs are "drama queens" and will scream like you are torturing them as soon as you touch them without ANY pressure. 

There are those trainers out there that can get to the higher levels of performance without the FF. Lorrie Jolly is just one example of them. But understand someone like Lorrie is an extrodinary trainer and she knows how to pick a pup at 7-8 weeks that is best suited for this kind of training. I have attended her seminars and back then she stated that as much as she believes in being able to do it without the FF she was not sure that she would have reached the heights she did with Speaker without it.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sidetrack...Stan is my girl Breeze's dad too! The Gunn's dogs are awesome!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

well I wasn't going to mention any names, but yes, absolutely. Her dogs are happy, enthusiastic, and excellent working dogs!




gabbys mom said:


> my4goldens said:
> 
> 
> > Are you talking about Bridget Carlsen? Everytime I see her dogs work (ie, at shows around here), I just have to stop and watch. It is absolutely beautiful.


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