# Webinar on R+ (positive reinforcement) based hunt training



## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

pawsnpaca said:


> I recently saw that Fenzi Dog Sport Academy will be offering a webinar on the use of positive reinforcement to train hunt skills. Based on the conversation I saw in the Fenzi FB group, it sounds like they’ll be covering a lot of ground and several of the skills that most believe can only be trained using force or e-collars. The webinar is only $20 and I thought it might be of interest to anyone who would aspire to higher level hunt titles but who prefer to use only positive training techniques if at all possible, or to those who are comfortable using e-collars, etc., but who are open-minded about learning new tools and techniques. The webinar I’d next week, so check it out soon if you are interested!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ooh I’ll definitely watch this one. I’ve never done any hunt tests but would like to try them with my next dog. I’ve read comments that a JH is very doable with positive only training but beyond that training a forced fetch is usually required, either by using an e-collar, or the old school ear pinching? I’m not opposed to using an e-collar after working with an instructor but it will be good to learn about more options.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I think it would be difficult- and Fenzi isn't a field training group so maybe it'll be a good webinar and maybe it'd be encouraging one to spend an extra 2-3 years.. and then too you'd have the judges who reach over to "pet" the dog and casually take his ear to see if he reacts... off the books judging. ...


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Fenzi is a dog training group, and although they may offer more classes in obedience and agility, they offer classes in everything from basic manners to every dog sport you can imagine, and generally their instructors are highly respected and experienced trainers competing in the highest levels of their chosen sports. 

For those who are curious, here’s a link to the instructor‘s bio.








Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - Guest Presentations - Jennifer Henion


Online dog training classes for obedience, rally, agility, tracking, nosework, dog behavior, freestyle, and foundation skills.




www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> Fenzi is a dog training group, and although they may offer more classes in obedience and agility, they offer classes in everything from basic manners to every dog sport you can imagine, and generally their instructors are highly respected and experienced trainers competing in the highest levels of their chosen sports.
> 
> For those who are curious, here’s a link to the instructor‘s bio.
> 
> ...


At the risk of judging to quickly and after watching the sample video on on the web site I have to say, no thanks.
She implies that a concept, running straight, is being taught. It is not, the dog is performing a simple trick. That's fine if it is your goal but it will not lead to success in field events.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Oh boy. 

I'll pass.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Does anyone know the qualifications of those putting on these webinars? Personally I only want to learn from those that have had success at the all age level, or at least has passed several Master Nationals or Grands.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

myluckypenny said:


> Does anyone know the qualifications of those putting on these webinars?


You must own a $25 web camera.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Or a kiddie pool and a handful of dog kibble

#waterforce


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Few professions are as corrupt as Professional Dog Training IMO. 
Lots of seemingly friendly people that tell owners all the things they want to hear. 
Where there is a demand there will be a supply.
Do your own research and don't fall for the marketing lines and catch phrases of the day. "Positive Only" is a popular one right now. A dog that does his job well, with enthusiasm and style, is the product of positive training. A dog that is out of control and disobedient under anything but ideal conditions is not trained, no matter how many excuses a pro comes up with. 
Don't be like so many new dog owners with very low expectations of what and how fast a dog can learn with good training. More importantly, you can train your own dog if you put your mind to it. You must maintain a dogs training throughout its life anyway, not that much different than training.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

A good friend of mine and a very accomplished field trainer told me a good story. There was an obedience competition nearby so he stopped to watch on his way back from training. Everyone was having fun and he talked to many people there and watched the dogs. 
Some of the people were curious about his field trial dogs. After the competition was over he got a dog out of his truck for them to see. She was a very nice FC/AFC Lab "Ruby". Because he is a character, my friend asked someone to get a few different kinds of pop from the cooler and set the cans spread out against the far wall of the room. He would then ask what kind of pop someone wanted and send Ruby. Each time she came back with the right kind. 
Everyone was amazed.

What he didn't bother to tell them was that Ruby, like many field trial dogs, took a cue for direction from the handlers foot. 
All he had to do was point his foot at the proper can, wait for Ruby to focus on it, and send her. 
In this situation it was kind of a trick. In the field, with a marks or blinds hundreds of yards away, it is just one of many tools of communication between the team of handler and dog.

This is also a great example of positive training. There is nothing a field retriever wants more than the bird. With repetition, challenges, success and working through mistakes, they will learn to take notice of all the little things that help them get that bird.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Oh boy....think I would have to pass. There is no such thing as positive only training and I don't see that method working for field! I do field occasionally. Not nearly as often as I'd like! I think I'll stick with what I've been taught by accomplished trainers.


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## holycarp (Jan 3, 2021)

SRW said:


> You must maintain a dogs training throughout its life anyway, not that much different than training.


It's actually incredible how many people forget this. They get a new puppy and it's "let's train!", and I compliment them on how well-behaved their dog is. I see them a year later and it's like.... what happened?



SRW said:


> What he didn't bother to tell them was that Ruby, like many field trial dogs, took a cue for direction from the handlers foot.


Ha! I love it. I don't do field, but work on trick training with one of my labs. We'd probably have our performer title if I wasn't so stubborn on insisting on skateboarding. Anyway, I love this kind of thing. I'll say complicated or strange phrases for tricks for people to see, but really all I'm doing is holding up a few fingers or pointing my knee cap a certain way.


Abeille said:


> There is no such thing as positive only training.


What do you mean? I thought there were plenty of trainers who only use positive reinforcement?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks for posting this. A lot of excellent webinars are offered from FDSA.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

holycarp said:


> What do you mean? I thought there were plenty of trainers who only use positive reinforcement?


Positive reinforcement is different from positive only. Positive reinforcement is something most people do. They get a reward for doing something correctly. What happens when they don't? Most people withhold the reward, correct? That's a negative thing to the dog. Dogs doing field need to be force fetched. In field, the work is the reward. And the dogs wouldn't have it any other way.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

holycarp said:


> What do you mean? I thought there were plenty of trainers who only use positive reinforcement?


IME, most +R only trainers are actually utilizing both +R, +P, and -P but labeling it as +R

+R - here I am ADDING something you want to ENcourage you to repeat the behavior (i.e. treats)
-R - here I am REMOVING something you DON'T want to ENcourage you to repeat the behavior (i.e. I think force fetch would fall here but I'm not sure)
+P - here I am ADDING something you DON'T want to DIScourage you to repeat the behavior (i.e. stepping on the leash to prevent jumping or turning your back and not engaging with the dog who is hyper)
-P - here I am REMOVING something you want to DIScourage you to repeat the behavior (i.e. a dog forages so they don't get the treat until they return to heel position)


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I have to say I am disappointed in the responses I’ve seen here. How is your refusal to even WATCH this webinar and see what can be accomplished using her techniques or what you might be able to learn, any different from people who refuse to even _consider_ the potential value of the properly-used pinch or e-collar? It would be one thing if you had watched the webinar with an open mind, maybe even tried some of the techniques, and decided it wasn’t for you, but you are condemning it without even watching it! 

The instructor is well respected and has earned multiple senior hunt test titles. If you don’t agree with her techniques, fine. Your dog, your call. But to condemn them with such contempt without even watching the webinar... well, as I say, I’m disappointed.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> I have to say I am disappointed in the responses I’ve seen here. How is your refusal to even WATCH this webinar and see what can be accomplished using her techniques or what you might be able to learn, any different from people who refuse to even _consider_ the potential value of the properly-used pinch or e-collar? It would be one thing if you had watched the webinar with an open mind, maybe even tried some of the techniques, and decided it wasn’t for you, but you are condemning it without even watching it!
> 
> The instructor is well respected and has earned multiple senior hunt test titles. If you don’t agree with her techniques, fine. Your dog, your call. But to condemn them with such contempt without even watching the webinar... well, as I say, I’m disappointed.


I watched a sample video on her web site and was unimpressed. Why would I pay her $20 to see more?

If you spend much time field training you will learn that the level of training needed for senior hunt tests is pretty basic.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I've seen the trainer's videos on FB and don't care to spend money to see more. Results matter.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I didn't watch it because it costs $'s to do so- but I did watch the trailer. It's not condemning to say a perfectly positive training for a field dog would take 2 years longer to achieve- most dogs can get a JH w minimal negative reinforcement or positive punishment but over that it would be a lot of additional time, and frankly, I think most Goldens prefer to KNOW what we want so they can do it well, rather than have to figure it out on their own. If I was interested enough to know how long it took her, I would spend the $'s for records on AKC but two of her three dogs are Stanley sons and the other is an Eng FTCH son. So I'd say those pups probably came to her already primed... in other words, most people interested in field are not working with the same raw material. One of them is 9 YO, one 8YO, one 5YO. So the fastest she did it was with a dog who is today 5YO w a SH. Anney does MH on 3YOs... do they know a collar? Yes-but so what? As long as the collar isn't in the hands of someone who has no clue how to use it, it is a great tool.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Again, I am happy for anyone training in any way they want- but I do think expediency is important when a HT costs close to $100 a whack.. and I couldn't help myself- the youngest dog's SH- 8 tests to get 4 passes. That is $400 extra dollars and more than a year from 1st pass to last. TBH that's about how my record would go- but i am not trying to sell HT training.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

An SH is awesome for a first time novice trainer (for reference I just got my first two passes at that level in HRC). My dog was about as close to perfect for those passes as one can get, does that mean I'm qualified to train others on how to get there? Absolutely not! 

For your dog's sake, please expect more from the people you chose to learn from!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

SRW said:


> If you spend much time field training you will learn that the level of training needed for senior hunt tests is pretty basic.





myluckypenny said:


> An SH is awesome for a first time novice trainer (for reference I just got my first two passes at that level in HRC). My dog was about as close to perfect for those passes as one can get, does that mean I'm qualified to train others on how to get there? Absolutely not!
> 
> For your dog's sake, please expect more from the people you chose to learn from!


Well you are just as qualified as some "pros". Do you have a web cam? 

My previous comment was not intended to mock SH tests.
SH and JH stakes are more for novice handlers than they are for the dogs. We all make mistakes in training and at events. JH and SH tests teach handlers the dynamics of and event help many get over their nervousness.

Qualifying stakes in field trials are the same way. You can learn a little about where your dog is at and his behavior in a field trial setting but mostly it is for the handlers. Time permitting judges will often call back dogs that have failed in a Q. There are no points or real titles involved, it is about learning to handle (and have fun) in an event situation which is not the same as training.



Prism Goldens said:


> One of them is 9 YO, one 8YO, one 5YO. So the fastest she did it was with a dog who is today 5YO w a SH.


Wow, worse than I thought. I feel minimally qualified to advise people on field training. If it took me 5 years to get a SH title I'd be quiet as a church mouse.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

whenever I hear someone go on about their success in training dogs, I look up the handler on www.EntryExpress.net I often find that the handler in question has little to no experience. I can run all the tests/trials from my couch too. Anyway I’m not very experienced or knowledgeable. But I know at least to learn from someone with some depth in that area. There are so many other great trainers online. Why settle for Fenzi when there are plenty of real trainers out there?


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

Ok I just watched this webinar (about 80 minutes of presentation and almost 40 minutes of Q&A) and it’s convinced me to work with a traditional trainer and an e collar. Disclaimer that I don’t yet have hunt experience, just starting to learn about this stuff. But she began with a basic example of shaping and proofing a leave it, and then spent most of the webinar discussing water honesty. At the end, she had one slide that the same principle could be applied to other issues, such as poison birds and a few other things. Multiple people asked about whether to reward or not (and she was rewarding with the remote release of a live bird, as one of her dogs has no interested in bumpers, which made me wonder how many live birds you would go through in training this way?) if the dog makes the wrong choice at x, y, z different point in the retrieve and she said basically it’s a judgment call, examine the choice points and break it down smaller if your dog keeps making the wrong choice. She was vague on a lot of specifics, and I don’t think that was just a matter of me being confused due to not having the knowledge base myself, because a lot of the submitted questions were more specific and seemed to show a background of traditional retriever training and she didn’t give very specific answers to them. 
My take, along with all these increments sounding very time consuming, it also seems like it would be very frustrating for the dog to go quite a long way before making a “wrong choice” and not getting a reward and not being clear at what point he messed up. The presenter kept indicating that won’t be an issue as long as you lay the correct foundation of small increment building blocks, and then she said she didn’t have time to go everything in a 1 hr webinar, but I notice even in the specific example she explored, water honesty, there were a lot of aspects she didn’t explain until viewers asked her and then even then her answers were kind of wishy washy, use your judgment as a handler.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

LA152 said:


> Multiple people asked about whether to reward or not (and she was rewarding with the remote release of a live bird, as one of her dogs has no interested in bumpers, which made me wonder how many live birds you would go through in training this way?)


$12 to $15 each for ducks or pheasants in a normal year, double that in some areas this year. Sounds like a very expensive way to produce a dog with horrible line manners along with a host of other issues.

Did anyone ask about the foundational concept of force fetch? (which her dogs have not been taught)


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Dates/passes on Skyriver's TNT High;;; first entry in senior 6/13- 14 entries til 4/15 when he finally got SH- then MH entries begin that same weekend, thru 9/19 there are 7 entries, no Q's. 
Tormore Malty- 18 Senior entries before he got 4 Q's- 8-16 thru 9-19. 
Not counting expenses, just entries, that is a TON of dollars. 

It's not that Fenzi isn't great for pet people etc and mostly OB- just think this particular trainer is not a pro.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

@LA152 thanks for signing up and reporting back on your impressions!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> Dates/passes on Skyriver's TNT High;;; first entry in senior 6/13- 14 entries til 4/15 when he finally got SH- then MH entries begin that same weekend, thru 9/19 there are 7 entries, no Q's.
> Tormore Malty- 18 Senior entries before he got 4 Q's- 8-16 thru 9-19.


How embarrassing.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SRW said:


> How embarrassing.


Not saying I would do better- that's a known, at least to me! BUT the big piece is I am not charging people for my 'knowledge and skill'...


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

SRW said:


> $12 to $15 each for ducks or pheasants in a normal year, double that in some areas this year. Sounds like a very expensive way to produce a dog with horrible line manners along with a host of other issues.
> 
> Did anyone ask about the foundational concept of force fetch? (which her dogs have not been taught)


No, nobody did. I also wish she had shown a video of the remote operated bird box. She showed a picture of it with a bird inside, but no video of how it dumps the bird out for the dog. Like I said, I’m just starting to learn, but my impression was that that is not a very commonplace training tool? Also, if it released a live bird...what if your dog doesn’t catch it? Maybe it’s wings were clipped or tied, I don’t know.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

LA152 said:


> No, nobody did. I also wish she had shown a video of the remote operated bird box. She showed a picture of it with a bird inside, but no video of how it dumps the bird out for the dog. Like I said, I’m just starting to learn, but my impression was that that is not a very commonplace training tool? Also, if it released a live bird...what if your dog doesn’t catch it? Maybe it’s wings were clipped or tied, I don’t know.


They are probably what these: 



I’ve used them some with friends that train for flushing hunt tests. They are big enough for a small hen mallard.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Alaska7133 said:


> They are probably what these:
> 
> 
> 
> I’ve used them some with friends that train for flushing hunt tests. They are big enough for a small hen mallard.





LA152 said:


> I’m just starting to learn, but my impression was that that is not a very commonplace training tool?


It is most likely what Alaska posted and common among upland trainers with pointing and flushing dogs.

I made a couple very simple ones years ago the could be released with a cord. Great for teaching steady to flush. I would tie a 15ft string to a pigeons leg. Very tempting for a dog to break with a bird flying in circles overhead.


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

My local GR club has their next meeting in a few weeks, so I’m going to ask around to see who does hunt tests, where they train around here, who they recommend as a trainer, etc. I live in Los Angeles, so fields and ponds aren’t so common (although on the plus side we don’t have to worry about alligators).


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

LA152 said:


> My local GR club has their next meeting in a few weeks, so I’m going to ask around to see who does hunt tests, where they train around here, who they recommend as a trainer, etc. I live in Los Angeles, so fields and ponds aren’t so common (although on the plus side we don’t have to worry about alligators).


I recommend you.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

LA152 said:


> My local GR club has their next meeting in a few weeks, so I’m going to ask around to see who does hunt tests, where they train around here, who they recommend as a trainer, etc. I live in Los Angeles, so fields and ponds aren’t so common (although on the plus side we don’t have to worry about alligators).


I've seen Prado park recommended for hunt/field training. 
The Dog Park — Prado Recreation Inc


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Brave said:


> I've seen Prado park recommended for hunt/field training.
> The Dog Park — Prado Recreation Inc


Prado is where the GRCA had their national specialty field trials and hunt tests a few years ago.


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## LA152 (Dec 31, 2020)

SRW said:


> I recommend you.


Oh I definitely want to handle my dog myself but I need training. I’ve never used an e collar or even attended a hunt test yet so I need a lot of work haha.


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