# So, my dog just bit me...



## MurphyTeller

You need to see a behaviorist - the power struggles and the alpha rolls are only going to provoke more bites. Throwing her into her crate or beating her "to within an inch of her life" is not going to fix the problem. Find a qualified behaviorist and work through this - or relinquish the dog to a rescue (with full disclosure of her issues) that is willing to work through the issues she is having.


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## Debles

If you aren't willing to work with a behaviorist with your dog and also have her checked out thoroughly by a vet for a medical reason, then please contact a rescue and have them work with her and find her a home.

Being violent with an already resource guarding golden is making your problem worse. I'm not a trainer but have read enough here to know that. I would have bit you too if you treated me like that. 
I hope someone else here can help you. Right now I am feeling very bad for your golden.No matter what she has done.


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## fostermom

This is one of the reasons that a lot of us discourage the "alpha roll" which is basically what you did.

I really think you need professional help to undo some of the things that have been ingrained in her at this point. I really don't mean this in a mean way at all, but I don't think she trusts you much. I hope you can find a trainer who will work with you on positive training methods and trust building. Good luck!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

She's not ready to become a therapy dog. I wouldn't use the alpha roll or hit my dog either.


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## jwemt81

Debles said:


> If you aren't willing to work with a behaviorist with your dog and also have her checked out thoroughly by a vet for a medical reason, then please contact a rescue and have them work with her and find her a home.
> 
> Being violent with an already resource guarding golden is making your problem worse. I'm not a trainer but have read enough here to know that. I would have bit you too if you treated me like that.
> I hope someone else here can help you. Right now I am feeling very bad for your golden.No matter what she has done.


I completely agree with all of this. If you don't want to try to work through this with a behaviorist/professional trainer as well has have a full medical workup, including a TSH (thyroid panel), then PLEASE place the dog in a rescue so that they can find her a good home. Hitting the poor dog is only going to make things MUCH worse. :no:


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## Jersey's Mom

If I'm being 100% honest, you don't sound exactly the picture of "calm and rational" at the moment. I've been bitten by dogs, and thoughts of shotguns or beating the dog to within an inch of its life have never crossed my mind. But I'm going to take you at your word, chalk it up to anger in the heat of the moment, and say nothing more about it.

As to the problem you're having. I'm definitely not an expert in food/resource guarding. There are a number of people here who can give you great advice on that, so I won't even offer my rookie ideas. But I do see 2 major problems you had tonight. First when the dog ignored your verbal corrections and continued to growl at you around her bowl, you let her win. You walked away, left the room, and she learned that if she makes enough noise you will back down. Problems # 2 is how you chose to handle it the next time she growled at you. Keep in mind, she's feeling confident having just (in her mind) succeeded in scaring you away with her growls. Now she tries it again and you aggressively grab her and attempt to force her onto the ground. Personally I think alpha rolls are one of the most dangerous training techniques you can use... it frightens and antagonizes the dog... and often they feel they have no choice but to lash out. As I said, I'll leave the training advice to the experts, but please take a deep breath, think about this from your pup's point of view, and I hope you'll be able to realize that your conflicting messages and aggressive reaction helped create the situation. It sounds like you've been looking hard for the right trainer, and that's exactly what you need. I personally suggest one that focuses on positive and humane techniques that will not only get the results you want, but also help you build a bond with your dog. Good luck and keep us updated!

Julie and Jersey


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## Ljilly28

Maybe you will give us a picture of the good things you've done with JoJo. Has she attended a puppy class? What is most fun about her? Is she a snuggler? Most goldens dont do well with rough stuff, and the old adage "you raise what you praise" applies to them. Goldens shouldnt be manhandled. This girl sounds troubled, and I wish you the best in creating a bond of mutual trust with her. I can see by your long post and desire to make her a therapy dog that you love her and are invested in her. It's just that many positive methods work better for goldens.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Tucker was pretty mouthy, unruly, and used to bite at my arm when he first came to live with us. He was just shy of a year old then. Thankfully, he is a different dog. Find a professional to help you. I'd look for someone who doesn't use physical force as a deterrent.


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## brockway

Wow, I guess you people don't read very well. I said that the culture I come from kills the dogs and I also said that's not my vibe. I also said that I kept calm the entire time. Pulling a dog by the collar isn't violent and placing them in a submissive position isn't violent. Each of your responses seem to be emotional and based on a strange sense that the dog is a furry little person, rather than a trained animal that only lives with people at the pleasure of the people. Dogs don't sleep in the bed, or eat at the table and I don't speak in a cutesy wootsy baby voice. 

Feeling bad for a dog that was unprovoked suddenly and abnormally is an odd thing for you folks. I know dog people can be strange but do you ever feel bad for people that commit violence? Do you blame the violent man's parents and sympathize with him? A dog who guards is understandable, it's in thier genes. And we've been doing great at working with it for the last few weeks. 5 mins after she finishes eating and she still growls and snarls? Positioning the dog on her side gets me bit?! Are you people crazy? How can you trust an animal that is unprovoked around a kid who doesn't know better and sticks his hand in the bowl? 

"Little Timmy got bit today. Poor Scrappy. That little jerk shouldn't have made you mad". Well, if all of you have the opinion that a dog who is, quite frankly, fawned over all day, every day, recieves daily excerise, has had dog training, and consistent dicipline is some how being treated poorly, I don't know what to say. All I'm reading is a single sided response. Where were you guys for the OJ trial?


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## brockway

A couple responses came in as I typed. Thanks for the positive replies Kimm & LJilly28.


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## bwoz

I know this kind of situation can be scary. I would definitely contact a reputable trainer to help you with this situation. Maybe your vet or breeder could give you some referrals?


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## Jersey's Mom

Actually, I don't feel my response was emotional at all. Let's talk about the alpha roll and my problem with it. Let me guess... you do this because it's what "wolves do in the wild" right? Sorry, wrong. The only reason a wolf would put another wolf in that position is if he was intending to kill it. Do a google search, there's been a lot more research since those original studies using unnatural packs of wolves. The truth is that the submissive wolf puts himself in that position to show deference to the alpha. If the alpha throws him down, again, it's time for him to fight for his life. Do I think you violently abused your dog? No of course I don't. Am I certain that this was an overly aggressive tactic that caused your dog to lash out in the only way he could. Yes, I am. 

Do I share your view of dogs? No, but that doesn't make my aversion to using aggressive tactics purely emotional. The culture you are from may be the ones shooting dogs, but it was most certainly you that said you wanted to beat your pup to within an inch of his life. So don't pretend that you're without emotion here. Only difference is your emotion is anger and frustration. 

Let's be honest here, if you had all the answers you wouldn't be here asking the question. But just like you're dog, you're biting the hand that feeds you. None of our comments were meant as a personal attack on you, but only an attempt to help you look at things another way. Again, I wish you the best of luck with your dog and hope you find a qualified behaviorist or trainer to help you.

Julie and Jersey


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## Pudden

you're making it worse with all that alpha-rolling and neck grabbing. Aggression can't be cured with aggression - it never works, not with kids, not with wives, and not with animals.


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## brockway

Jersey's Mom, I call B.S. Advice or suggestions are one thing. Telling someone you don't know that they are violent or mistreating the dog is another. Advice is suggesting a good source for finding a local behaviorist. Being judgemental is assuming something about wolves. I don't know what you're talking about there. But, what I do know is that technique being used all over the dog shows on Animal Planet and suggested by countless dog training books. So, save your holier than thou attitude for your own dog. Your telling if your dog bites you and causes a severe amount of pain you wouldn't want to strike back? Dogs have instincts and so do men. My instinct is to harm the dog. Did I do it? Nope, but I'm an honest enough person to admit that's how I felt. And I don't think I'm alone when I say "I want to kill my dog" or "My car sucks! I want to hurl it into the sea!" are common types of comments made but never acted upon. 1) because I can't lift the car I've tried. and 2) because everyone says things like that when they are angry. Just today I said "I want to kill my boss". Am I crazy for saying that? Fact doesn't change that people like you think the animal is innocent no matter what. Maybe the dog is peeved or just a jerk or whatever. It doesn't matter. I can't tolerate an animal that can't be trusted.


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## MurphyTeller

brockway said:


> Wow, I guess you people don't read very well. I said that the culture I come from kills the dogs and I also said that's not my vibe. I also said that I kept calm the entire time. Pulling a dog by the collar isn't violent and placing them in a submissive position isn't violent. Each of your responses seem to be emotional and based on a strange sense that the dog is a furry little person, rather than a trained animal that only lives with people at the pleasure of the people. Dogs don't sleep in the bed, or eat at the table and I don't speak in a cutesy wootsy baby voice.
> 
> Feeling bad for a dog that was unprovoked suddenly and abnormally is an odd thing for you folks. I know dog people can be strange but do you ever feel bad for people that commit violence? Do you blame the violent man's parents and sympathize with him? A dog who guards is understandable, it's in thier genes. And we've been doing great at working with it for the last few weeks. 5 mins after she finishes eating and she still growls and snarls? Positioning the dog on her side gets me bit?! Are you people crazy? How can you trust an animal that is unprovoked around a kid who doesn't know better and sticks his hand in the bowl?
> 
> "Little Timmy got bit today. Poor Scrappy. That little jerk shouldn't have made you mad". Well, if all of you have the opinion that a dog who is, quite frankly, fawned over all day, every day, recieves daily excerise, has had dog training, and consistent dicipline is some how being treated poorly, I don't know what to say. All I'm reading is a single sided response. Where were you guys for the OJ trial?


You're right - you did say that your culture would resort to the shotgun - not you. I don't think anyone accused you of taking her out behind the barn with the shotgun. 

You said you considered beating her to an inch of her life - we did not read that wrong. I'm not defending your dogs actions - I'm telling you there are better ways to handle the problems than with aggression. I don't coddle my dogs and I would not accept the behaviors that you described from a dog that lived in my household. I own the food bowls, I own toys and yeah - toddlers can (and sometimes do) take stuff away from them - those are the rules. 

I did say - and I stand by this - that you need to seek out a behaviorist - whether or not I believe in the methods you have tried so far, obviously your methods are not working and the problems have gotten worse. My dogs both have a clear understanding of their place in the pack and how to behave around other people and children - they were never physically punished or alpha-rolled to accomplish that. 

I don't think you can get constructive advice from a forum situation in this situation - there are a lot of great behaviorists and trainers on here - but the written word fails in both understanding what your dog is doing and how we would suggest that you start to repair the relationship you have with your dog. 

Erica


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## mylissyk

You are not speaking the dog's language. 

1. Growling is telling you to back off, this is mine - you ignored her warning
2. Putting in a neck hold on the floor is a threat to her, so she responded in defense of herself.

In order to work with any living creature you have to communicate to her in a language she understands.

No you should not accept or allow her to continue this behaviour. It is dangerous and will only become increasingly more dangerous by adding small children to the equation. You are right to look for ways to work with her to reduce or eliminate the problem. But in order to do that you need to find methods that work and do not elicit an escalated aggressive response from the dog. What you have done to this point has not been effective apparently.

I think you have backed her into a corner mentally and she is reacting in the only manner a dog knows how. You will need help from someone with experience and knowledge to teach you how to handle her and undo the learned behaviours she has established.

One tip on the food guarding, try walking by and dropping treats or bites of something really good in the bowl. Do that long enough and she will start to understand you are not a threat to her food source, in fact you bring good things to eat when you approach.

Please do not roll her again, you are showing her that you are indeed a threat to her. There are other methods that will have the opposite message to the dog. But again you need to work with a trainer who has experience and can show you what those methods are.


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## Pudden

brockway said:


> Wow, I guess you people don't read very well. I said that the culture I come from kills the dogs and I also said that's not my vibe. I also said that I kept calm the entire time. Pulling a dog by the collar isn't violent and placing them in a submissive position isn't violent. Each of your responses seem to be emotional and based on a strange sense that the dog is a furry little person, rather than a trained animal that only lives with people at the pleasure of the people. Dogs don't sleep in the bed, or eat at the table and I don't speak in a cutesy wootsy baby voice.
> 
> Feeling bad for a dog that was unprovoked suddenly and abnormally is an odd thing for you folks. I know dog people can be strange but do you ever feel bad for people that commit violence? Do you blame the violent man's parents and sympathize with him? A dog who guards is understandable, it's in thier genes. And we've been doing great at working with it for the last few weeks. 5 mins after she finishes eating and she still growls and snarls? Positioning the dog on her side gets me bit?! Are you people crazy? How can you trust an animal that is unprovoked around a kid who doesn't know better and sticks his hand in the bowl?
> 
> "Little Timmy got bit today. Poor Scrappy. That little jerk shouldn't have made you mad". Well, if all of you have the opinion that a dog who is, quite frankly, fawned over all day, every day, recieves daily excerise, has had dog training, and consistent dicipline is some how being treated poorly, I don't know what to say. All I'm reading is a single sided response. Where were you guys for the OJ trial?


 based on your response I would say you are an emotional person. 
I agree that a dog with these issues - unprovoked or not - is not an ideal dog around kids. Maybe re-homing her is the best choice.

But from the dog's point of view, alpha-rolling is a strong, forceful display of dominance and yes, it's quite violent.


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## brockway

Pudden said:


> you're making it worse with all that alpha-rolling and neck grabbing. Aggression can't be cured with aggression - it never works, not with kids, not with wives, and not with animals.


So how do dogs interact with each other? I don't see them asking politely in the dog park. If they are in another dog's way, they push them out of the way. A dog doesn't like something, they bite the other dog.


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## Ardeagold

> Pulling a dog by the collar isn't violent and placing them in a submissive position isn't violent.


Yes it is, because the only time dogs do it is when they intend to kill or maim the other one. 

When dogs "submit" to other dogs and show their undersides, it's done willingly. The dog "holding" the other dog really isn't. They're generally just standing there until the "lower" dog submits totally.

Momma dogs "down" puppies to teach them to submit to a larger threat (to keep them safe) .... but they don't HOLD them down and they don't do it once the pup is over 8 weeks of age. It's a "lesson" .... for puppies, not adult dogs. 

It means something entirely different to an adult dog. And your dog is an adult.

Plus you're taking a dog with a dominant personality and challenging it. I'd think that teaching cooperation would be a better way to handle this dog. 

If you're treating him this way to show him you can be "meaner" than he is ... guess what? You might just be in for a BIG surprise someday. And you're teaching him that he needs to defend himself...from you or anyone who grabs him.

Oh and if you don't think I know what I'm talking about ... go visit my website. I live with 16 dogs. From 150+ lbs to 50 lbs. They all live in the house...with cats...and none have EVER even attempted to bite me, or my spouse. 

Some are rescues, history unknown. Gotten as adults. Some we got as puppies. Some are from breeders who know what they're doing, and have reliable temperaments. Others....are anybody's guess. THEY don't all get along (we have a couple who hate another couple), but they ALL get along with us.

Yes, there are some that are "dominant" personalities ... others that are more willing to go with the flow, but any and all of them would run circles around us if we "let them". 

None have ever been hit, yanked, tossed to the floor, or anything of the sort. Why? Because I'm not stupid enough to think they couldn't kill me any time they wanted to, and don't. They deserve the same respect that they give me.


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## cinnamonteal

In addition to the comments recommending you consult a good behaviorist, I just wanted to say that if your dog is acting overly playful and hyper ie. _"Jumping up (nothing deters her except the shaker can) , tons of mouthing, playing by chewing sleeves and cuffs, chewing hands and shoes on your feet, and does this mock bite motion when excited."_ try ignoring her. Turn your back to her and fold your arms. If she continues, leave the room for a few minutes. She's trying to get a reaction from you and when you respond by physically manipulating your dog she will probably interrupt it as rough play or aggression. Instead, give her lots of positive attention when she's being calm.


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## mylissyk

Association of Pet Dog Trainers hosts a list of certified trainers:
www.*apdt.com*

Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists (CAAB) and Associate Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists (ACAAB) http://www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory


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## brockway

Like I said, the dog has been hyper violent since I got her. It was kinda cute at first, but as she got bigger I tried to discourage it with the shaker can, saying NO!, faking pain when she mouthed me, took her to puppy class, tried using positive reenforcement with good treats, worked with her on the food issues, etc...

Again, rolling a dog on her side my be aggressive, but it certainly isn't violent. As far as I can see, physicality is all dogs know.


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## Pudden

brockway said:


> So how do dogs interact with each other? I don't see them asking politely in the dog park. If they are in another dog's way, they push them out of the way. A dog doesn't like something, they bite the other dog.


no! absolutely not. What you describe is aggressive behavior by dogs - not typical behavior. Observe closely when you go to he dog park: most interrelationships by dogs are quite subtle, with many carefully observed rules, that are designed to avoid aggression, not cause it. 

Any social species has these finely-tuned behavioral rules. It is not in the interest of social animals to be at war with their conspecifics. 

On the other hand, When two members of a non-social species meet, such as bears or moose, sparks are more likely to fly because fine-tuned social interactions have not evolved in such species.


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## Abbydabbydo

Gosh, my first thought is I'd bit you, too , but that would not be right.

If the pup truly gets lots of exercise, is much loved and gets lots of training, either see a behaviorist or rehome. 

We are not a bunch of dog hugging, human intolerating freaks, but we like to give the dogs a chance before we shoot them.


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## Ardeagold

Physicality is and isn't all dogs know. Dogs READ body language - read that physicality. That's how they converse. They also read "intent", attitude and definitely read emotion. And that's what you have to figure out first. 

What is your intent? What is your emotional state? And what is your attitude when you're correcting her?

Get your emotions under control before doing anything ... and go from there.



> A dog doesn't like something, they bite the other dog.


Not true. They glare first. Stop and puff up. They growl. They give warnings before they do a thing. They're giving the other dog a chance to back down before they bite. Once again, it's body language. Some dogs ignore it, but that's by choice. Others are just stupid, or haven't had a chance to learn the ropes with other dogs. But there's always a warning, before an attack. (Unless the dog is just nuts, and that exists too).

Learn to READ your dog. That's key to learning how to train her properly. Give her respect, and EXPECT her to do the same. It's all about attitude, not force.

I'm sure you've heard the saying "There are no bad dogs, just bad owners". In 99% of the cases, that's true. Genetics determine a lot about a dog, but generally, it's the owners who have caused the dog to be what it is. In the other 1% of cases, the dog "just isn't right". I suspect yours may be a bit too active and determined for your liking. Doesn't mean she's a bad dog....just that she might be in the wrong home for her personality.


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## Jersey's Mom

Okay, so now you've piqued my curiosity.... why do you use the alpha roll? What is your reasoning behind it? In what way does this communicate to the dog? 

I may have made an incorrect assumption about your reasons for using an alpha roll, but let's look at some of the assumptions you made about us. I could quote your entire second post, but you can read it yourself. I seem to remember you assuming where our dogs sleep, how we view them, and how we view human crime just off the top of my head. 

Oh, and I think there's a chance you may be referencing National Geographic (again, if I'm wrong let me know but I can't think of a single show on Animal Planet that uses alpha rolls). If you're referring to the Cesar Milan, I'm not even going to get into that one. My opinions about him are widely documented on this forum... if you're interested (I'm sure you're not) you're welcome to search them out. I've seen that show... I've also seen that man get bitten, with blood drawn, more than a few times. 

I suppose I can't relate to your natural instincts. My dogs learn long before 15 months that biting is not acceptable. Sure there's some mouthing/biting when they're very young, but how could I get violently angry about that (whether or not I act on it)? That would be like wanting to smack the smile off an infant's face that just pulled your hair. But I imagine that if I were in your place, I would be more angry at myself than the dog. I feel it's my job to teach him what I will and will not tolerate at a young age. I do that in the least aversive way possible (I admit, I'm not perfect, but I'm striving to learn more every day). So far it's worked well for me. 

Trust me, I'm not holier than anyone. I and others here have offered you advice. Choose to take it, or not, but don't lash out at us for having a different approach. 

Julie and Jersey


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## Griffyn'sMom

brockway said:


> Jo Jo is a pretty good, 15 month old golden.
> At this age she is like a teenager - still learning her place and testing you all the way.
> But, she's always had an aggressive play personality. Jumping up (nothing deters her except the shaker can) , tons of mouthing, playing by chewing sleeves and cuffs, chewing hands and shoes on your feet, and does this mock bite motion when excited. I blew it off as a personality quirk but have been trying to discourage the behavior.
> I had this problem with Griff at an earlier age - more like 7-9 months - he'd almost get into a frenzy if we went into the back yard with him because he was sooo excited that were out there to play with him.
> 
> We found that being consistent and training him to "Sit" and "Wait" was the best result. If he started acting like a nut - it was stop playing, Sit, wait and I'd return to the house and leave him outside for a few moments. He soon learned that acting like that ended playtime. The key is to not reward the bad behavior by continuing.
> Just last night I looked into 3 different local trainers to make her a therapy dog. I felt like this would be great for everyone.
> Looking for a good trainer will make her a wonderful pet - go for it!
> 
> Well, tonight I was continuing to work on her growling and snarling at the dog dish. We've been making sure to eat first, "eat" the dog food first adn then let her have some and back and forth. All the while my hand is in the dish. I'm trying to make her realize there will always be food and no one is going to steal it.
> 
> Have you been using this technique since she was a wee pup or is it something new?
> 
> She was growling like crazy tonight. We tried "NO!" and used the shaker can but she didn't care. We left her alone to finish and I went back on teh computer. She came beside me, as usual, to look out the window. I said, "Let's go to the park and work off some energy!" and tried to pet her. She growled and showed her teeth again.
> 
> I am not familiar with resource guarding but this sounds very unusual that she remained at odds with you after the fact. A visit to the Vet may be in order to see if something is amiss with thyroid or even lymes disease as I've heard it can trigger aggression as well.
> 
> So, I grabbed her by the collar and began to pull her to the middle of the floor to flip her over. As I got her on her side, she snapped out and bit me on the hand. Her teeth caught my index finger knuckle on either side and broke the skin. I held her down for 2 minutes until she calmed down. I released her and told her to get into her crate where I locked her in.
> 
> I've found with Griff that this is NOT the way to handle him - the more excited my voice gets, the more intense he gets - whether it's good or bad. He's actually my voice of reason if I yell at my kids because he's right there jumping up trying to get in the middle of it.
> 
> Here's my problem. Where I come from, the dog would already be destroyed the old fashioned way. However, that isn't my style nor is legal to discharge firearms within town limits. But, my wife and I are trying to have kids and now I can't trust her. I love my dog and she's made our lives richer, but I'm not a big compromiser when it comes to women and children. It's all I can do to NOT beat the dog within an inch of her life but I've remained calm throughout. I'm rational and thoughtful. But, the "what if she bites my kid or someone else" question is running through my mind.
> 
> Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks.
> 
> -Al


I will post a little video when it uploads to photobucket - it takes forever.

Adding video: Haven't done this for a while - My house is small so Griff's bowl is a bit in the way of family traffic - we are constantly stepping over him, bumping around him, etc. when he is eating. He's been getting pats and handling while eating since he was a wee pup. As you can see - he listens pretty well so long as I remember to give him the commands! LOL
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v480/afullmoon/?action=view&current=Picture.flv

Patience and more training - beating her will only ruin her forever. And seriously, if you beat your dog, please don't have children.


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## Pudden

brockway said:


> physicality is all dogs know.


No no no 
Physicality is only the last resort. Subtlety is what dominates everyday dog interactions - among each other and with their owners.

I'm gonna guess that maybe he's another Cesar Milan victim?


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## brockway

Ardeagold, no one is challenging you here. I'm not fond of being attacked by my dog and then being attacked by a bunch of people when I ask for advice. Thumping your chest and proclaiming Guru status is lame. 

Bottom line is, no one knows everything about dogs and everyone makes mistakes. Clearly I made a mistake by trying to put the dog down and physically over power her and dominating. However, I'm an animal too and my instinct was to do much more than just roll her over but I didn't. I didn't even pull my hand away when she bit me. I stayed calm and just held her there to keep her from biting again. She calmed quickly and went right into the crate when I released and commanded her to go there. 

You guys gotta understand. She's been trouble off and on since we got her at 2 months. She's extremely pig headed and I've tried every technique available to me. Tolerating a dog who doesn't listen isn't my vibe. And the worst part is, the last few weeks have been filled with extra excercise, extra attention, extra treats when she does something good, extra training, and extra love. Hell, I wanted to make her a freakin therapy dog! Does that sound like I'm doing everything wrong? I don't think so. I'm not perfect but this is so far out of bounds for her.


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## Jo Ellen

Every dog is like its owner? I've heard that before, somewhere. I suppose it's not always true but it's something to think about.


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## Ardeagold

I'm not the Guru and never stated I was. But I DID state that I've never had that problem with ANY dog we've owned, rescued, fostered, etc.

And, after reading your post(s) I strongly feel it *might* just be that the two of you have different ideas of what's acceptable behavior, and YOUR animal instincts are on overdrive. 

Perhaps doing a LOT of research, getting a behaviorist/trainer involved, and honestly evaluating what you *might* be doing that's exacerbating the problem would be a common-sense HUMAN approach.

You've been defending actions that the majority here disdain...over and over again. So it appears that you aren't interested in hearing that you could be making the problem worse, but that the dog is "faulty".

Maybe she IS high strung ... and stubborn ... and difficult, but what you're doing, and your attitude about it certainly hasn't helped now has it?


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## brockway

Jerseysmom, you gave me license to be judgemental when you judged first. I did it as an illustration of your choice of words. 

Well, I'm wasting my time here because even though I'm getting nice, positive responses from some, I'm feeling drowned by finger pointers who don't know what happened and don't seem to want to. 

"I would have bit you too" comments creep me out. I'm sure many of you have normal healthy relationships with dogs but some of you are coming off as crossing the border into abnormal relationships based on your comments. So, enjoy your evening. I'll be researching good dog behaviorists in the area to see if we keep the dog or get rid of her. That's the big lesson of the day: The dog ultimately does what the OWNER wants or the dog is out. Period. 
Thanks again to all the positive people.


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## fostermom

I can understand your frustration, and maybe even your anger. What I can't understand is why you are directing it to the folks here. I think that the ones that you are lashing out at the most, have some of the most sensible advice.

I am glad that you are looking into some professional training for her. There is a very good possibility that not too far down the line she can still become a therapy dog. 

Good luck. I hope that things work out for you and your dog. With a lot of work, I know it will.


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## gil1075

I'm sorry to say and maybe I shouldn't put my 2 cents in being so new, but it sounds to me that you don't deserve to have a dog, and should think about a rescue for the poor thing. It's my understanding that you show love and affection and they show it back 10 times over. 

Debbie


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## mylissyk

I don't know what else we can offer you other than saying your approach is not working, and you need to find another way to deal with the problem. 

Finding an experienced good trainer is the best thing you can do.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I haven't read all of the replies, but where are you located? Maybe someone can recommend someone good in your area if they haven't already.

I know there are a number of sites that will explain some of the negative reactions by a dog using the alpha roll. I have read that a number of people, especially those that are inexperienced, have been severely injured. There are always conflicting opinions regarding methods used, but I think doing some reading on the technique, may help.


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## daddysgirl

brockway said:


> Jerseysmom, you gave me license to be judgemental when you judged first. I did it as an illustration of your choice of words.
> 
> Well, I'm wasting my time here because even though I'm getting nice, positive responses from some, I'm feeling drowned by finger pointers who don't know what happened and don't seem to want to.
> 
> "I would have bit you too" comments creep me out. I'm sure many of you have normal healthy relationships with dogs but some of you are coming off as crossing the border into abnormal relationships based on your comments. So, enjoy your evening. I'll be researching good dog behaviorists in the area to see if we keep the dog or get rid of her. That's the big lesson of the day: The dog ultimately does what the OWNER wants or the dog is out. Period.
> Thanks again to all the positive people.


please have your dog checked out by a vet for potential reasons why she is being aggressive, maybe she is in pain, thyroid problem etc. we just got a kitten recently and he was peeing everywhere except for his litterbox, turns out he has a UTI and thats why he was doing that. maybe there is something going on with your dog that you dont know about. as for the positive people, its hard not to get mad when you say things like "if we keep the dog or get rid of her" and "or the dog is out", you are posting to a forum of people that love their Goldens, and our dogs are part of our FAMILY. if you do decide to let your girl go, please try to find a Golden Retriever rescue that will give her a fighting chance.


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## Brady's mom

brockway said:


> Jo Jo is a pretty good, 15 month old golden. But, she's always had an aggressive play personality. Jumping up (nothing deters her except the shaker can) , tons of mouthing, playing by chewing sleeves and cuffs, chewing hands and shoes on your feet, and does this mock bite motion when excited. I blew it off as a personality quirk but have been trying to discourage the behavior. Just last night I looked into 3 different local trainers to make her a therapy dog. I felt like this would be great for everyone.
> 
> -Al


Our goldens are similar in age. Brady was a wild puppy and exhibited some of the behaviors you mention, but we were able to get past these fairly early (8-9 months) with the help of a private trainer and the skills we learned in puppy class. He no longer exhibits these behaviors, at least for now. I think you could really benefit from having a private trainer out to observe these behaviors and help you correct them. It may be a bit harder to work past these at your dog's age (she's no doubt quite big) but I don't think this is a sign of permanent problems. 

Good luck to you!


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## Lucky's mom

Dogs with alot of adrenylene will "react" negatively when a collar is grabbed or when they are physically restrained. 

I tried to give Lucky an alpha roll when he was out of control when he was 7 months old.....and we ended up in a non-productive "dogfight". _And he's not even a dominent personality!_ I was mad, he was mad.....I think it can work in some situations because it has worked for some people but my motto is....if it makes the problem worse, dont do it.

For Lucky, the Alpha Roll was a competition, not a consequence. 

By 15 months your pup should have the mouthing _controlled by you_...meaning when you say "off", she should stop. When you say "mouth" she should know its ok mouth. 

This is done by treat training...and it doesn't take long and its fun for the dog (was for me too). What it does is it gives you control. The more control she willingly gives you, the more she will look to you as a leader not as a competitor. I don't think her wildness is a personality quirk...its possible she isn't clear on how she should behave...maybe getting mixed messages. 

And that is where a trainer can be nice...like mentioned above...a trainer can objectively observe things to see where the problem lies.

I know you are frustrated and probably angry...I've been there.


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## Pointgold

brockway said:


> Ardeagold, no one is challenging you here. I'm not fond of being attacked by my dog and then being attacked by a bunch of people when I ask for advice. Thumping your chest and proclaiming Guru status is lame.
> 
> Bottom line is, no one knows everything about dogs and everyone makes mistakes. Clearly I made a mistake by trying to put the dog down and physically over power her and dominating. However, I'm an animal too and my instinct was to do much more than just roll her over but I didn't. I didn't even pull my hand away when she bit me. I stayed calm and just held her there to keep her from biting again. She calmed quickly and went right into the crate when I released and commanded her to go there.
> 
> You guys gotta understand. She's been trouble off and on since we got her at 2 months. She's extremely pig headed and I've tried every technique available to me. Tolerating a dog who doesn't listen isn't my vibe. And the worst part is, the last few weeks have been filled with extra excercise, extra attention, extra treats when she does something good, extra training, and extra love. Hell, I wanted to make her a freakin therapy dog! Does that sound like I'm doing everything wrong? I don't think so. I'm not perfect but this is so far out of bounds for her.


 

Don't you just hate it when you don't get the answer that you wanted?

I think that you have the dog from hell and should relinquish her. You can send her to me.


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## GRZ

Dude. Do you want advice or not? Why do you chew up and spit out all of the well experienced and well intentioned advice from members here as you refer to those same members as "you people?"

You could really use some education about dogs. Reading this thread is quite disturbing.


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## Jackson'sMom

So what kind of advice would be acceptable? That's it OK to "beat the dog within an inch of her life"? I hope this dog finds a new home that will work with her and help her deal with her issues before something serious happens to her or anyone in the household. That was a very sad thread.


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## jwemt81

I am praying for this poor dog!


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## Jackson'sMom

Also wondering how long this dog has been with her current family, what her background is, etc. It sounds as if this guy and the dog should 'divorce' due to irreconcilable differences. Might be the best thing for all.


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## For the Love of Goldens

"oucccccccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


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## WLR

Geeee, nothing like a good ol firefight on such a cold winter night to warm things up.....


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## Ardeagold

> Don't you just hate it when you don't get the answer that you wanted?
> 
> I think that you have the dog from hell and should relinquish her. You can send her to me.


Ohhhhh.....VERY good PG!

I have to remember that and use it every time somebody new comes onto a forum, asks for advice, gets it, and then argues with and gets mad at the people who are advising him/her. 

(Not that it happens more than once a week..........:doh: )


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## Elisabeth Kazup

This man has revealed himself to us:

He's quick tempered and impatient...a dangerous combination

In his anger he turns to physical violence...watch out wife and future kids

He has to be in control no matter what

He is not to be criticized

He has no empathy for his dog...probably not for people either

He needs everyone to agree with him

He needs a lot of education before he has a dog or children.

His dog sounds like it is thoroughly frightened of him and with good cause. If he reverses his behavior with this dog then she has a chance. If he doesn't, this dog will be another abused, ruined animal condemed to move from home to home because it's "bad" and finally euthanised because it is a dangerous animal that can't be put up for adoption.

Puppies are not born this way, well-cared for dogs don't end up this way. I hope someone alpha rolls this guy...he needs a dose of his own medicine.


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## Jackson'sMom

wishihad2goldens said:


> This man has revealed himself to us:
> 
> He's quick tempered and impatient...a dangerous combination
> 
> In his anger he turns to physical violence...watch out wife and future kids
> 
> He has to be in control no matter what
> 
> He is not to be criticized
> 
> He has no empathy for his dog...probably not for people either
> 
> He needs everyone to agree with him
> 
> He needs a lot of education before he has a dog or children.
> 
> His dog sounds like it is thoroughly frightened of him and with good cause. If he reverses his behavior with this dog then she has a chance. If he doesn't, this dog will be another abused, ruined animal condemed to move from home to home because it's "bad" and finally euthanised because it is a dangerous animal that can't be put up for adoption.
> 
> Puppies are not born this way, well-cared for dogs don't end up this way. I hope someone alpha rolls this guy...he needs a dose of his own medicine.


:appl::appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## jwemt81

wishihad2goldens said:


> This man has revealed himself to us:
> 
> He's quick tempered and impatient...a dangerous combination
> 
> In his anger he turns to physical violence...watch out wife and future kids
> 
> He has to be in control no matter what
> 
> He is not to be criticized
> 
> He has no empathy for his dog...probably not for people either
> 
> He needs everyone to agree with him
> 
> He needs a lot of education before he has a dog or children.
> 
> His dog sounds like it is thoroughly frightened of him and with good cause. If he reverses his behavior with this dog then she has a chance. If he doesn't, this dog will be another abused, ruined animal condemed to move from home to home because it's "bad" and finally euthanised because it is a dangerous animal that can't be put up for adoption.
> 
> Puppies are not born this way, well-cared for dogs don't end up this way. I hope someone alpha rolls this guy...he needs a dose of his own medicine.


 
The nail has been hit on the head!


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## nixietink

Jackson'sMom said:


> Also wondering how long this dog has been with her current family, what her background is, etc. It sounds as if this guy and the dog should 'divorce' due to irreconcilable differences. Might be the best thing for all.


I believe he stated he has had the dog since 8 weeks old.

I would put my 2 cents in, but OP has been given a lot of helpful advice. I would also say more than that...but uh, I'll keep my mouth shut.


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## Jackson'sMom

nixietink said:


> I believe he stated he has had the dog since 8 weeks old.


I don't think he said how long he's had the dog; maybe it was in a subsequent post.


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## Florabora22

I think the OP genuinely does want to help his dog (I read his other posts, and he seems concerned about his pup), but maybe his temper is a bit too much for a troublesome puppy. I know he's been a bit... feisty, but really - criticizing the OP isn't going to help his dog. I think we should just give him helpful advice, and hope that he and his dog can work things out.

To the OP: I do agree with the other members in saying that you should definitely seek out a trainer to help you out with your dog's issues. Also, whenever you feel frustrated and feel like you may become violent, just close your eyes and count to ten. I know it sounds childish, but I'm sometimes short of temper and it definitely helps me out. Dogs are animals, and while I LOVE them, they're not as smart as humans. If you hit them, or flip them over onto their backs in an aggressive manner, they're going to have no idea why you're doing it. Positive reinforcement is a great thing. I wish you the best of luck!


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## Heidi36oh

Poor baby needs to go to a good home where she is loved, send her my way!


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## AndyFarmer

GRZ said:


> Reading this thread is quite disturbing.


I agree...  especially this part... I've NEVER said or thought or acted on this statement; angry, fed up or anything.... I actually think you are alone. I don't even think the work "kill" is in my vocabulary 



brockway said:


> And I don't think I'm alone when I say "I want to kill my dog" .....are common types of comments made but never acted upon. ... because everyone says things like that when they are angry. Just today I said "I want to kill my boss". Am I crazy for saying that?


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## Lucky's mom

really this thread should be closed. Nothing positive going on here.


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## Bock

WOW........that's the only word in my vocab after reading all the previous posts


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## Bogart'sMom

What I would like to know is what the pup is suposed to learn when you pretent to eat her food first then let her have some. She thinks she has to fight for her food otherwise she might miss a meal. 
I handfed Bogart as a pup. He learned to take food gently from my hands, he realized all good things come from me. I added food to the bowl I never pretented to eat his food. 
Then when you are in a bad mood training a dog is the worst you can do. The dog just gets confused because it can feel that you are mad. The dog shuts down because she thinks she can't do anything right anyway. Have you just started exercising her or have you done this since she was a puppy? Grabbing her by the collar can make her handshy, specialy if she is a scared dog already. I know that not one dog has ever Alpha rolled my dog. He does lay down and shows his belly to other dogs but it's on his own free will. If I want to get my dog wirred up like to motivate him I start pushing him a little (playfully) and he comes back jumping at me and pushing me back. If I couldn't seddle him again I'd be in trouble. So pushing and shoving is not a good method of punishment. The dog pushes back. I would start more mental stimulation like surch games, she might not be mentaly stimulated enough. You can start hiding treats in other rooms of the house and let her surch for it. Just taking her out for a run might not be enough to get the energy out. Goldens are very mouthy but also very, very smart. My dog is my friend, he is always happy to see me, he tries to do good and still sometimes he does things that displease me. I do get mad at him but he is not afraid of me because there is never physical punishment for him. If he doesn't listen to a recall, we practice it more. I try new things with him like trying new tricks, we do clicker training (that wears him out mentaly) we take daily walks, we practice our RallyO, we took Dog freestyle classes, tricks classes, agility classes, there is so much that we can do with our dogs. Yes they are dogs but also there isn't a time in my life that I would even think of throwing his butt on the street because he doesn't want to do what I want him to do. I just means I have to work harder to motivate him to work for me. Dogs don't speak english you are like a creature from a diffrent planet to her. She just knows that you are mad at her she doesn't understand you. I just hope you can work it out.


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## BeauShel

Closing this thread. brockway isnt coming back per his last response. Hope he finds a good behaviorist to help her and give her the love and security she needs. Or gives her to a good rescue.


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