# Pennhip



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Good question. I am not quite sure I wanted to say Borderline but don't take my word for it. I will be interested to see other replies.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Me too. There is a known breeder breeding bad dogs...A friend of mine got taken for a ride and I am not happy about it!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Oh no that is really upsetting. I just hate when that happens. Hopefully if we bump it every once in a while someone will respond with a factual answer.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Me too, thanks! I am thinking that PG, Tahnee, Delmarva or someone may know.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> Me too, thanks! I am thinking that PG, Tahnee, Delmarva or someone may know.


Yeah them or Swamcollie as well. Where are they all when you need them LOL


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I know it! HELLO!!!! ANYONE HERE????


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Actually there is not necassarily a correlation between a OFA rating and a PennHip score. There are dogs who have been rated good or even excellent by OFA that were determined to be dysplatic by PennHip and then others who were in the 90th or higher percentile by PennHip rating and OFA rules mild or dysplastic. they use two different methods to come to their conclusion. What is even more frustrating that the incidence of dysplasia has not inproved significantly with using either or both these methods. And before everyone goes off the deep end thinking I have lost my mind, I feel over the years the OFA datsbase is askew due to folks not submitting xrays that will obviously not pass OFA's panel.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

AmbikaGR said:


> Actually there is not necassarily a correlation between a OFA rating and a PennHip score. There are dogs who have been rated good or even excellent by OFA that were determined to be dysplatic by PennHip and then others who were in the 90th or higher percentile by PennHip rating and OFA rules mild or dysplastic. they use two different methods to come to their conclusion. What is even more frustrating that the incidence of dysplasia has not inproved significantly with using either or both these methods. And before everyone goes off the deep end thinking I have lost my mind, I feel over the years the OFA datsbase is askew due to folks not submitting xrays that will obviously not pass OFA's panel.


I totally agree with that, or people that do not release abnormal results. I told my friend to send hers in anyways even though they are not going to pass and told her to make sure she released the results.

My friend has a sibling to this dog and the mother is missing hip info on the ofa site, but has heart and eyes. I think she failed and they didnt release it.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

If I am thinking right PennHip does not pass or fail hips they only provides an idea of where a dog's hip laxity falls in relation to others in their own breed?? I use OFA not PennHip am finding this interesting.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I only use OFA as well, since the AKC only recognizes OFA not Pennhip.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> My friend has a sibling to this dog and the mother is missing hip info on the ofa site, but has heart and eyes. I think she failed and they didnt release it.


Could it be possible the dam has an OVC clearence? Did your friend not get actual paper clearences when she purchased her dog?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> Me too, thanks! I am thinking that PG, Tahnee, Delmarva or someone may know.


Sorry to have not been right here, but I am dashing between meetings at work. This will be quick, and I am going to refer you to a link from another thread...
Becky, there really is no correlation. I don't use Penn Hip for a variety of reasons, and if you go to this link, Ragtyme posted an excellent response:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?p=394207#post394207

Off to the next meeting :doh:


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Ash said:


> Could it be possible the dam has an OVC clearence? Did your friend not get actual paper clearences when she purchased her dog?


No, she is from a breeder in NC. I can tell you who the breeder is, I don't mind. It is Heritage Rock Goldens.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Sorry to have not been right here, but I am dashing between meetings at work. This will be quick, and I am going to refer you to a link from another thread...
> Becky, there really is no correlation. I don't use Penn Hip for a variety of reasons, and if you go to this link, Ragtyme posted an excellent response:
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?p=394207#post394207
> ...



Thanks PG! That was a confusing post though!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Ash said:


> If I am thinking right PennHip does not pass or fail hips they only provides an idea of where a dog's hip laxity falls in relation to others in their own breed?? I use OFA not PennHip am finding this interesting.


Yes that is correct. PennHip maintains that the more laxity in the hip the greater the chance the dog will develop Dengenerate Hip Disease which is the hallmark of hip dysplasia. The below chart is from the PennHip website. I believe at this point in time the median DI in Goldens is .56


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

AmbikaGR said:


> Yes that is correct. PennHip maintains that the more laxity in the hip the greater the chance the dog will develop Dengenerate Hip Disease which is the hallmark of hip dysplasia. The below chart is from the PennHip website. I believe at this point in time the median DI in Goldens is .56


So what exactly does it mean if a dog is in the 60th percentile. That 40 % of goldens have better hips?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

My understanding from a recent discussion on Work Gold is that the median PennHip score for a Golden is around .54 or .56. 

My boy Scout was .36/.36, with an OFA of Excellent. His father was .36/.32, OFA Good.

As others have said, PennHip scores do not always correlate all that well with OFA, in part because they are looking at 2 different things.

There is a chart that does not copy well at 

www.pennhip.org

under What's New?

I agree that if the breeder is using OFA for other things, it is odd that hips were not done both OFA and PennHip. When we did our PennHip, the vet automatically did both views, so they could be submitted to both OFA and PennHip.

Linda


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> I totally agree with that, or people that do not release abnormal results. I told my friend to send hers in anyways even though they are not going to pass and told her to make sure she released the results.
> 
> My friend has a sibling to this dog and the mother is missing hip info on the ofa site, but has heart and eyes. I think she failed and they didnt release it.


Did your friend ask the breeder? Although AKC does not yet list PennHip The GRCA does. As well the GRCA recognizes any written report from a board certified radiologist.



telsmith1 said:


> No, she is from a breeder in NC. I can tell you who the breeder is, I don't mind. It is Heritage Rock Goldens. Tricia Ashley.


Even though this breeder is from NC she can still submit to OVC. I live in New Jersey and I had OVC evaluate a dog's elbows last year.



telsmith1 said:


> So what exactly does it mean if a dog is in the 60th percentile. That 40 % of goldens have better hips?


Yes in essence that is what it means.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

She is going to email the breeder and ask her. She is pretty bummed about it as she was going to breed her once all of the clearances were done. She paid alot of money for this dog with breeding rights.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> No, she is from a breeder in NC. I can tell you who the breeder is, I don't mind. It is Heritage Rock Goldens. Tricia Ashley.


She can still submit to OVC just like Canadians can submit to OFA. Just a thought.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Ash said:


> She can still submit to OVC just like Canadians can submit to OFA. Just a thought.


Yeah, but I doubt if she did. We will see what she says when my friend emails her.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> She is going to email the breeder and ask her. She is pretty bummed about it as she was going to breed her once all of the clearances were done. She paid alot of money for this dog with breeding rights.


That is a shame. I can understand how bad your friend feels. That is one of the heart breaks of breeding, that you can do every thing right and the results still do not work out. 
That said different things can effect hip xrays. When was the last time she was in season? How experienced is the vet who took the xrays at taking them and positioning the dog properly? I woulld not send them in yet. I would have them redone by another vet and see what hppens. Just my opinion.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

I told her the same thing, so she went and talked to a ortho specialist in NC with the xrays and he said dont spend the money to redo them as she will not pass.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

There was some discussion on another list the last day or two and the below vets were recommended for OFA xrays. May be worth checking out.
> Reidsville Veterinary Hospital & Animal Eye Care of Reidsville
> 1401 West Harrison Street
> Reidsville, NC 27320
> Phone: (336) 349-3194
> Fax: (336) 349-3365


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

AmbikaGR said:


> There was some discussion on another list the last day or two and the below vets were recommended for OFA xrays. May be worth checking out.
> > Reidsville Veterinary Hospital & Animal Eye Care of Reidsville
> > 1401 West Harrison Street
> > Reidsville, NC 27320
> ...


I will let her know.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

telsmith1 said:


> She is pretty bummed about it as she was going to breed her once all of the clearances were done. She paid alot of money for this dog with breeding rights.


Sorry to hear that but I think all of us can relate. I know I have had more then my fair share of those things that just didn't work out.


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

Ash said:


> Sorry to hear that but I think all of us can relate. I know I have had more then my fair share of those things that just didn't work out.


Yeah, me too, lol.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sorry I didn't get to this sooner, the Legislative session is in progress.

There is no direct correlation between PennHip and OFA. 

Many people misunderstand the purpose of PennHip, and there are always a few who use it to mislead an under educated public. 
The purpose PennHip was created was to give a dog owner a better predictor of what "Will Be" with this specific dog. It really wasn't created to be a breeding clearance, although some are trying to use it as such at this time. That is why there isn't an open database like there is with OFA and CERF. Those were created to not only be health evaluations but breeding clearances as well.

The purpose and philosophy behind Hip Clearance exams for breeding animals is simple. You only breed dogs that are considered "normal" and cull those dogs that are not.

In the case of OFA, take an X-ray of the animal and let three independent board certified professionals give their opinion about what they see. Does the dog have normal hip conformation respective to breed or not? Those that fall into the normal range are graded by the evaluators (Fair, Good or Excellent), and Certified by OFA as "Normal", given a permanent I.D. number and entered into a public database for all to see. Dogs that "are not" within the normal range will not be Certified by OFA, although the failing results may be included in the database if the owner chooses to release that information (they rarely do).

The big pissing match with OFA has always been with a dog that is on the bubble, that is between "Fair" and "Dysplastic". When dogs of this range are being evaluated "Opinions" are more varied. PennHip can be a little better at predicting what will happen in the future with this one dog with the idea being tighter is better. 

PennHip evaluations are confusing for many because there is no easy to understand grade assigned. The evaluation is done, measurements are listed and the dog is ranked in relation to other dogs of the same breed that are included in the PennHip Database. Every dog is included and sent a letter with the results of the evaluation. If you don't understand the relationship of the measurements to other good solid dogs, the numbers don't bring clarity and understanding. 

The differences in process between the evaluation systems has at least for the time being created a "Devils Playground" where PennHip is concerned. There are a number of folks breeding dogs that really don't possess a good solid set of wheels, based upon less than stellar PennHip evaluations. 

The typical example would be breeder "X" takes dog in for OFA X-rays. The attending Vet looks at them and says "boy, I don't know that these are going to pass, it could be borderline." Breeder "X" then declines to send the X-ray to OFA. Breeder "X" takes same dog to another Vet to do the PennHip Eval. Breeder "X" gets results back from PennHip that ranks the dog around the middle of the pack for the breed. Half are better, half are worse. Breeder "X" says hey we're in the middle of the pack, that's good enough and breeds the hell out of the dog. 

Breeder "X" is being up front with the PH evaluation information but the public doesn't understand the meaning of that information, so they end up being taken advantage of.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I disagree with Swampcollie on a few points.
I think PennHip is meant to be used as a tool to decide what dogs to breed. Unlike OFA there is a measurable number determined from the evaluation. Although the numbers, distraction index and breed percentile ranking, can be confusing they are still measureable numbers and not an opinion. Virtually every dog that is submitted for a Pennhip evaluation is entered into their database, where as if one does no like the way the xrays came out for an OFA evaluation then they are not submitted. unfortunately neither using OFA nor PennHip evaluations has put a significant dent in the hip dysplasia in the breed. As for Breeder X I believe they would have bred that dog no matter what. As in all walks of life you have the good, the bad and the ugly.

I should add that I use OFA to evaluate hips for no reason other than it is cheaper. If I thought PennHip could more accurately predict what a dog would produce I would switch. Right now neither exam is any better in my opinion.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The distraction index is really the only difference that is unique to PennHip, and I'm not that convinced it matters that much if you're using dogs that have good solid hip conformation to begin with. 

I will disagree with you on the value of OFA Evaluations. I've been around the dog game now for almost 40 years. I have seen a temendous reduction in the frequency of appearance of dysplastic animals over time. 

The existance of OFA has made a HUGE difference where breeders made tough choices and culled the lesser dogs. In lines where tough minded breeding decisions weren't made, hip problems continue although perhaps not quite as bad as they had been in the past.

Remember neither test has the ability to change any genes in any breed. We're not practicing genetic engineering, we're practicing selective breeding. All the tests give us is the opportunity to select for good solid hip conformation or not. (Removing dogs from the breeding gene pool that do not display normal solid hip conformation.) 

If you're not trying to split hairs with breeding borderline dogs, the PennHip method offers nothing over the old established OFA method. If you're trying to split hairs over which of two mediocre dogs is better, PennHip could shed some additional insight to help with that decision.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I agree that we will disagree when it comes to the value of OFA evaluations. Going by the most recent numbers I can find on the OFA website this is what I see.

In the years from 1974 to 1980 16,628 Golden Retrievers were submitted for evaluation. 23.1% (3841) of those were evaluated as dysplastic.
Compare that to the last 5 years data available on the OFA site (2000-2004)
In that time 19,174 Golden Retrievers were evaluated. 15.7% (3003) of those were evaluated as dysplastic. Now on the surface that looks like a great improvement. However it does not take into account all the xrays that were not submitted due to owners knowing they would not clear. Now I admit that my numbers are nothing more than a guess but I would not think that it is unreasonable to think that in any year at least 200 dogs xrays are not submitted. Add that to the ones that were known and you are still over 22% for that 5 year period. Not a drastic improvement in my eyes.


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