# OFA Prelims



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

A rather off-putting poster brought up a good point and I was about to acknowledge it in detail, but the thread was closed before I could address it. So I will address it here; not to her, but generically.

In practical terms, if you're just playing the odds, then that preliminary hip report you got from the OFA several months before your dog turned two is probably a pretty accurate predictor of your dog's chances of obtaining final clearances. From the OFA website:



> A recent publication [_1997, which isn't that recent, anymore!_] compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months).


The OFA won't issue a hip clearance certification until a dog is 24 months old. The GRCA Code of Ethics is very clear about dogs having to obtain clearances at or after 24 months of age. So, it's a very bright line rule, that 24 months thing. So, while the Code of Ethics and the OFA rules for issuing certified clearance numbers are still very plain about requiring a dog 24 months or older, if you have a dog that got a good or excellent on prelims, it's a pretty good bet that your dog will pass finals with at least a "fair" hip rating.

Does that mean it's ethical to breed that dog on those prelims? Nope! Because as we've all heard too many times, dogs who have passed prelims can sometimes fail finals, and while dogs often get worse from prelims to finals (going from excellent to fair, for example), none ever seem to get better. Plus, I think the reliability is better because finals are reviewed by 3 specialists, and prelims just 1.

But if you have a dog that got a good or excellent on his/her hip prelims, you can feel pretty certain that they will pass finals, all things being equal.

I do prelims because if my dogs fail prelims, I'm going to take that dog out of the possibility of showing and breeding right away, and save myself a lot of money and heartache. But just because my dog passes a prelim, I still wouldn't breed until after final clearances. Indeed, I just turned down someone who wanted to breed to Gibbs (he just turned 2 years old last week) because I don't have his final clearances yet. But because he got a "good" (and I was told one hip "excellent" one hip "good") on his prelims, I'm pretty confident that he'll pass his final.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It is the elbows that concern me more than the hips. My dog Copley had beautiful prelims- the bestest Penn Hips at better than 90th percentile, hips good and elbows normal at 12 . By age two Hips Fair and bilateral ED. I waited to have Mystics done until 15 months and he was already a CH by then. They are Hips Good, Elbows Normal but that does not alleviate my nerves very much. I let them play hard- the other day Lush and Mystic both jumped off a waterfall 7 or 8 feet after a squirrel in the woods- all I can think is ELBOWS guys. . . He is going out in January to finish up his GCH title and I know he os going to hop of the grooming table onto concrete floors etc. ELBOWS. I will not rest easy until April 22.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Thanks Jill for sharing. I also have to ask, what's the rush for breeders to breed on prelims? It's not like these breeders are actually doing anything with their goldens other than breeding so they can't say the pup's "career" is necessitating a rushed breeding.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Jill, my feeling is I'm going to let dogs be dogs, and if they pass, great; if they don't, okay. I don't think a dog that has been preserved like fine china earns that clearance, and the clearance doesn't tell me anything about whether or not the dog should be bred. But a dog that has run, and played, and jumped, and slid, and swam, and dug, and romped, and fell, and leaped off tall mounds, and chased squirrels and balls, and flew through the air, and skinned his hocks and elbows -- if _that_ dog passes, that dog has good hips/elbows and is one I want in my breeding program.

Good luck with Mystic! He's a gorgeous boy.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I think the CRCA COE marks a departure from the way things used to be done in the days of grand large influential kennels. The honorable thing to do the was, if you had a promising young stud dog, to prove him quietly at home with bitches whose lines you knew before offering him out to stand at public stud. Husbandry-wise, I see the good things in that.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Is the OFA more of a registry of certifications, than anything else? For instance, I know the reason why eyes are now listed there is because the vets requested it so they would have a central place for them.

Another thing that kind of surprised me, is on the statistics of ED on the OFA page, it was saying other countries have a higher incidence of ED, and will have no problem breeding dogs with ED1, while in the US, that is frowned upon.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> Is the OFA more of a registry of certifications, than anything else? For instance, I know the reason why eyes are now listed there is because the vets requested it so they would have a central place for them.
> 
> .



When it comes to hearts and eyes, I suppose OFA is essentially just a registry. But not so with hips and elbows. Their certified specialists read and interpret the x rays and actually award the clearance (or not). It is really helpful though that you can register about any clearance with them as far as making it more convenient to do one's homework on breeders who make use of the registry portion of OFA. 

Julie and the boys


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## Ilovepuppybreath (Dec 1, 2014)

How flattering that you have spent so much research to prove me wrong, snooping around on my web pages and turning every stone to dig up dirt on me on K9data and OFA.org. You know, I would be in the Golden Retriever Club, but people like you were the factor that I didn't join. I remember my first time in the show ring 24 some years ago, with my "white" English Golden Retriever, members of GRCA there, how I was shunned because my dog was so different and so beautiful. The war has continued over the years with numerous warnings to the public not to buy from so and so and English Goldens are inferior and there is no such thing as a white Goldens and blah blah blah. You are all JEALOUS because you don't have such beautiful dogs with World Champions in their lines so now you just HAVE to make us miserable because you are so empty inside and so sad inside and have nothing better to do then to bash up people on the internet. You know what? We are not backing down, as a matter of fact we started our OWN Golden Retriever Club where people can come for advice how to care for their dogs or if they are cyber bullied here on the Golden Forum or other sites. We give them advice and we give them phone numbers to attorneys in case it get out of hand. We have one couple and they had 1 female and 1 male and they got attacked on the internet by you "high school" bullies calling them "puppy mill". We are growing in numbers and just sitting here watching you type away giving more and more ammunition until the big day when we all do what needs to be done. So here's an advice for you. Before you slander people on the internet, take a chill pill and don't write whatever comes to your brains.(Infuriating and irritating isn't it? LOL)If the breeders in the GRCA would have treated me differently 24 years ago I would not be writing on this horrible, disgraceful, nasty forum full of people that have nothing better to do then to spew hatred on other breeders. I stand up for other breeders that do not dare to come forward here and defend themselves and those who will come after me. I will die and go away and you get to sit here and spew nasty words and hatred every day for the rest of your lives. You know what? I LOVE my dogs everyone of them and I had a blast breeding them, showing them, swimming with them, hugging them, getting kissed by them, been blessed with wonderful dogs, wonderful customers, blessed with an awesome man and family. I loved every single puppy born. I'm taking that with me to the grave. But maybe that's the problem? We are too happy and too blessed. People get hateful when others are happy and blessed! I was taught everything about Goldens by an outcast (people called her puppy mill, turns out she was crazy so I stopped associating with her plus I didn't like the fact how she kept her dogs locked up) but I had no one to help me or teach me how to trim, show or breed and then later on a nice lady took me under her wings, who has been a judge/breeder/handler most of her life of Golden Retrievers and is on the Golden Retriever Club of America's board. It's unfortunate she got greedy, was going to show my dog and kept it at home and charged me for it while not doing anything. As a matter of fact my dog when I came to pick it up CRAWLED TO ME after being there. Needless to say I NEVER took my dogs to her ever again. That "reputable breeder/handler/judge" w 4 dogs locked up in small concrete runs in the back yard while she worked 8 hours a day 5 days a week while I had 26 acres for mine with unlimited time with them from the whole family. Not to talk about a "reputable" breeder who used a Turkey baster inseminating my female giving her an infection. Promised me a breeding from her American Champion male but not informing me of using a Turkey baster until after the fact. A breeding that didn't take but she kept the money. Stacked crates on top of each other in the garage with Goldens in them. Pretty much all of these "reputable breeders" I visited were the same. Small back yards, concrete and kennels. Another handler who had my female for months but "didn't have time to finish her" but charged me $5000 for boarding fees. So no thank you to GRCA. You would think they would be attacked but instead I was attacked and sneered at from all angles with my English Goldens, my 26 acres, my happiness and my lake. Yes we have had health problems but that was 20 some years ago. We weeded all the health problems out. My dogs are OFA screened so you really don't need to sit and waste all your time on me. Our customers are very well off and they insure a good life for our pups. I got a long list of customers, that if I would say HELP they would come to help. They come in their private jets, helicopters, limousines and with police escorts. All those customers all those years. Happy customers and great dogs! So now if you will excuse me I will continue to love my dogs and the little time I have left I will give to people who come to us in tears from attacks of them here on Golden Forum. Yeah so GRCA and Golden Retriever Forum and "Reputable Breeders" go take a hike because I don't give a penny about your Club and what you "reputable breeders" with your sickly American Goldens write (by the way they laugh at your Goldens in England and Europe).......I will continue to breed dogs to my best ability until I die and when I am gone someone else in the family will keep going............and you guys.............go enjoy your dogs! Get a life! And stick that "reputable breeder" blah blah blah where the sun doesn't shine!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Ilovepuppybreath said:


> How flattering that you have spent so much research to prove me wrong. You know I would be in the Golden Retriever Club, but people like you were the factor that I didn't join. I remember my first time in the show ring 24 some years ago, with my "white" English Golden Retriever, members of GRCA there, how I was shunned because my dog was so different and so beautiful. The war has continued over the years with numerous warnings to the public not to buy from so and so and English Goldens are inferior and there is no such thing as a white Goldens and blah blah blah. You are all JEALOUS because you don't have such beautiful dogs and we are not backing down as a matter of fact we started our own Golden Retriever Club where people can come for advice how to care for their dogs or if they are cyber bullied here on the Golden Forum or other sites. We give them advice and we give them phone numbers to attorneys in case it get out of hand. We have one couple and they had 1 female and 1 male and they got attacked on the internet by you "high school" bullies calling them "puppy mill". We are growing in numbers and just sitting here watching you type away giving more and more ammunition until the big day when we all do what needs to be done. So here's an advice for you. Before you slander people on the internet, take a chill pill and don't write whatever comes to your brains. If the breeders in the GRCA would have treated me differently 24 years ago I would not be writing on this horrible, disgraceful, nasty forum full of people that have nothing better to do then to spew hatred on other breeders. I stand up for other breeders that will come after me. I will die and go away and you get to sit here and spew nasty words and hatred every day for the rest of your life. You know what? I LOVE my dogs everyone of them and I had a blast breeding them, showing them, been blessed with wonderful dogs, wonderful customers, blessed with an awesome man and family. I loved every single puppy born. I'm taking that with me to the grave. But maybe that's the problem? We are too happy and too blessed. People get hateful when others are happy and blessed! I was taught everything about Goldens by an outcast (people called her puppy mill, turns out she was crazy so I stopped associating with her plus I didn't like the fact how she kept her dogs locked up) but I had no one to help me or teach me how to trim, show or breed and then later on a nice lady took me under her wings, who has been a judge/breeder/handler most of her life of Golden Retrievers and is on the Golden Retriever Club of America's board. It's unfortunate she got greedy, was going to show my dog and kept it at home and charged me for it while not doing anything. As a matter of fact my dog when I came to pick it up CRAWLED TO ME after being there. Needless to say I NEVER took my dogs to her ever again. A reputable breeder/handler/judge w 4 dogs locked up in small concrete runs in the back yard while she worked 8 hours a day 5 days a week while I had 26 acres for mine with unlimited time with them from the whole family. Not to talk about a "reputable" breeder who used a Turkey baster inseminating my female giving her an infection. Promised me a breeding from her American Champion male but not informing me of using a Turkey baster until after the fact. A breeding that didn't take but she kept the money. Stacked crates on top of each other in the garage with Goldens in them. Pretty much all of these "reputable breeders" I visited were the same. Small back yards, concrete and kennels. Another handler who had my female for months but "didn't have time to finish her" but charged me $5000 for boarding fees. So no thank you to GRCA. You would think they would be attacked but instead I was attacked and sneered at from all angles with my English Goldens, my 26 acres, my happiness and my lake. Yes we have had health problems but that was 20 some years ago. We weeded all the health problems out. My dogs are OFA screened so you really don't need to sit and waste all your time on me. Our customers are very well off and they insure a good life for our pups. I got a long list of customers, that if I would say HELP they would come to help. They come in their private jets, helicopters, limousines and with police escorts. All those customers all those years. Happy customers and great dogs! So now if you will excuse me I will continue to love my dogs and the little time I have left I will give to people who come to us in tears from attacks of them here on Golden Forum. Yeah so GRCA and Golden Retriever Forum and "Reputable Breeders" go take a hike I don't give a penny about your Club and what you write.......I will continue to breed dogs to my best ability until I die and when I am gone someone else in the family will keep going............and you guys.............go enjoy your dogs! Get a life!


Wow. Just so I get this straight, which name does your 26 acres go under:


ragtym said:


> Since PG posted this, lets make sure the names get associated with it as well:
> 
> Kevin Carais, Mimmi Carais, Lena Sorenson, Lena Duke, Mona Duke, Lena Duke Carais, & Channah Carais are all people that have one time or another been associated with White Dove Golden Retrievers.
> 
> White Dove Golden Retrievers is also known as White D Golden Retrievers, White Duck Golden Retrievers, Golden Retriever Puppies 4 U, Golden Retriever Puppies 4 U 2, White Dove Ranch, Golden Retriever Puppies In Space, Platinum Golden Retrievers, and now possibly as Carais Golden Retrievers since several of their latest breeding dogs carry that name.





LJack said:


> It also looks like Le Chien D'Or Blanc Golden Retrievers in California is also owned by Lena Duke Carais and Keith Carais because almost all the dogs on the website list them as owners.


Just a bit confused as to what breeder is being slandered when there are so many people & different kennels associated with the same set of pups. I am sorry your dogs had the purported experience you list above. Which to me goes back to the importance of fully researching who you are dealing with as anyone can make grandiose claims. As such, I think based on your experience you could at least appreciate that as no one (an no pup) should have to deal with the outcomes of people misrepresenting themselves.


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## Ilovepuppybreath (Dec 1, 2014)

LOL! Nice try! I am not here to discuss and have conversations with any of you. Happy slandering!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Ilovepuppybreath said:


> LOL! Nice try! I am not here to discuss and have conversations with any of you. Happy slandering!


Yet you continue to come to this public forum & post, making accusations against its members? So are you in fact representing: White Dove Golden Retrievers is also known as White D Golden Retrievers, White Duck Golden Retrievers, Golden Retriever Puppies 4 U, Golden Retriever Puppies 4 U 2, White Dove Ranch, Golden Retriever Puppies In Space, Platinum Golden Retrievers, and now possibly as Carais Golden Retrievers since several of their latest breeding dogs carry that name and Le Chien D'Or Blanc Golden Retrievers? Is that several kennels on one property or one kennel by many names?



Ilovepuppybreath said:


> We are not backing down, as a matter of fact we started our OWN Golden Retriever Club where people can come for advice how to care for their dogs


Would love to see your code of ethics for this new club (perhaps a separate thread?). I believe it was addressed some years ago on this forum, but when I went to the site, there is very limited data advising new & prospective puppy owners.



Ilovepuppybreath said:


> I was taught everything about Goldens by an outcast (people called her puppy mill, turns out she was crazy so I stopped associating with her plus I didn't like the fact how she kept her dogs locked up)


 Perhaps a new mentor is in order? As I age, I realize I still have plenty to learn and thankfully am still willing and open to learning.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Dana, my apologies for running this thread off topic.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

There are two reasons I do not do prelims. The first reason is that once my dogs are mine, they are never going anywhere. The other reason is that I HAVE seen borderline or mild hips go to passing. And I have seen passing prelims go to failing...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And I have been to breeding meetings where Dr. Keller was a speaker. He does not advocate breeding on prelim clearances. However, the closer you get to 24 months, the more accurate the clearance is. Certainly, a clearance done at 12 months will not be as accurate.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Ilovepuppybreath said:


> How flattering that you have spent so much research to prove me wrong, snooping around on my web pages and turning every stone to dig up dirt on me on K9data and OFA.org. You know, I would be in the Golden Retriever Club, but people like you were the factor that I didn't join. I remember my first time in the show ring 24 some years ago, with my "white" English Golden Retriever, members of GRCA there, how I was shunned because my dog was so different and so beautiful. The war has continued over the years with numerous warnings to the public not to buy from so and so and English Goldens are inferior and there is no such thing as a white Goldens and blah blah blah. You are all JEALOUS because you don't have such beautiful dogs with World Champions in their lines so now you just HAVE to make us miserable because you are so empty inside and so sad inside and have nothing better to do then to bash up people on the internet. You know what? We are not backing down, as a matter of fact we started our OWN Golden Retriever Club where people can come for advice how to care for their dogs or if they are cyber bullied here on the Golden Forum or other sites. We give them advice and we give them phone numbers to attorneys in case it get out of hand. We have one couple and they had 1 female and 1 male and they got attacked on the internet by you "high school" bullies calling them "puppy mill". We are growing in numbers and just sitting here watching you type away giving more and more ammunition until the big day when we all do what needs to be done. So here's an advice for you. Before you slander people on the internet, take a chill pill and don't write whatever comes to your brains.(Infuriating and irritating isn't it? LOL)If the breeders in the GRCA would have treated me differently 24 years ago I would not be writing on this horrible, disgraceful, nasty forum full of people that have nothing better to do then to spew hatred on other breeders. I stand up for other breeders that do not dare to come forward here and defend themselves and those who will come after me. I will die and go away and you get to sit here and spew nasty words and hatred every day for the rest of your lives. You know what? I LOVE my dogs everyone of them and I had a blast breeding them, showing them, swimming with them, hugging them, getting kissed by them, been blessed with wonderful dogs, wonderful customers, blessed with an awesome man and family. I loved every single puppy born. I'm taking that with me to the grave. But maybe that's the problem? We are too happy and too blessed. People get hateful when others are happy and blessed! I was taught everything about Goldens by an outcast (people called her puppy mill, turns out she was crazy so I stopped associating with her plus I didn't like the fact how she kept her dogs locked up) but I had no one to help me or teach me how to trim, show or breed and then later on a nice lady took me under her wings, who has been a judge/breeder/handler most of her life of Golden Retrievers and is on the Golden Retriever Club of America's board. It's unfortunate she got greedy, was going to show my dog and kept it at home and charged me for it while not doing anything. As a matter of fact my dog when I came to pick it up CRAWLED TO ME after being there. Needless to say I NEVER took my dogs to her ever again. That "reputable breeder/handler/judge" w 4 dogs locked up in small concrete runs in the back yard while she worked 8 hours a day 5 days a week while I had 26 acres for mine with unlimited time with them from the whole family. Not to talk about a "reputable" breeder who used a Turkey baster inseminating my female giving her an infection. Promised me a breeding from her American Champion male but not informing me of using a Turkey baster until after the fact. A breeding that didn't take but she kept the money. Stacked crates on top of each other in the garage with Goldens in them. Pretty much all of these "reputable breeders" I visited were the same. Small back yards, concrete and kennels. Another handler who had my female for months but "didn't have time to finish her" but charged me $5000 for boarding fees. So no thank you to GRCA. You would think they would be attacked but instead I was attacked and sneered at from all angles with my English Goldens, my 26 acres, my happiness and my lake. Yes we have had health problems but that was 20 some years ago. We weeded all the health problems out. My dogs are OFA screened so you really don't need to sit and waste all your time on me. Our customers are very well off and they insure a good life for our pups. I got a long list of customers, that if I would say HELP they would come to help. They come in their private jets, helicopters, limousines and with police escorts. All those customers all those years. Happy customers and great dogs! So now if you will excuse me I will continue to love my dogs and the little time I have left I will give to people who come to us in tears from attacks of them here on Golden Forum. Yeah so GRCA and Golden Retriever Forum and "Reputable Breeders" go take a hike because I don't give a penny about your Club and what you "reputable breeders" with your sickly American Goldens write (by the way they laugh at your Goldens in England and Europe).......I will continue to breed dogs to my best ability until I die and when I am gone someone else in the family will keep going............and you guys.............go enjoy your dogs! Get a life! And stick that "reputable breeder" blah blah blah where the sun doesn't shine!


 I just find it amusing that you think this thread was directed only to you. This was a very nice discussion on why breeders do Prelims. This thread did not even mention or "slander" any names did it? You are the one that keeps popping up with these ridiculous posts! Most of our members love all kinds of shades of the golden retriever. So, stop making it about American VS "White" golden retrievers. It was about BYB vs Reputable breeders. End of story.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have been to meetings where Dr. Keller is a speaker. He does not advocate that one should breed on prelims. And he does advocate sedation and/or anesthesia when the rads are taken, but that will start another argument...


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Every vet I worked for had us put dogs under anesthesia for OFA x-rays.


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## Bentman2 (Sep 30, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> A rather off-putting poster brought up a good point and I was about to acknowledge it in detail, but the thread was closed before I could address it. So I will address it here; not to her, but generically.
> 
> In practical terms, if you're just playing the odds, then that preliminary hip report you got from the OFA several months before your dog turned two is probably a pretty accurate predictor of your dog's chances of obtaining final clearances. From the OFA website:
> 
> ...


 
I thank *DanaRuns* and* Ljilly28 *for addressing this subject, very much in detail here. I had proposed this same question of prelims to Ljilly28 last week and she promptly answered my concerns. To be able to further clarify that with statistical data is really helpful. I have yet to have Bentley x-rayed for elbow and hip clearances as he is only 19 month old. My concern was the need of going through the expense of that knowing that he will never be bred but at the same time having enough information about his elbows and hips as to make intelligent decisions on any possible treatment. Ljilly and you, DanaRuns have given me a good amount of insight into that subject and I, and many others on the forum, really do appreciate it. As it stands now, and unless I find more compelling evidence to do so, I will just have prelims done on his elbows and hips, at age 20 months, and use that as a basis for maintaining him. As DanaRuns indicated in her findings, that most final grades are rarely if ever better than the prelims and usually downgraded. I think, based on that assumption, that if Bentley elbows and hips are graded "fair" at prelims, then I will opt for finals. However, a grade of good or excellent, I will probably be content with that. I want him to have the best chance of having a healthy life and that is my basis for any and all consideration in having clearances done. I have never considered breeding him and would not regardless of his clearances, as I know my knowledge and limitations on the subject.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So, here is biggest issue with prelims. That quite a lot of the time they are presented in a manner, either purposely or innocently, that an average buyer will interpret the claim as true Certifications with the OFA number. 

Take for example the following statement if it came from a college student: 
"Just passed the big test in my Chemistry Class now time for some well earn time off from school. Can't wait to start my career!"

Reading this statement I believe that most readers will infer that the student passed the final exam. Some may even infer the student accomplished a degree. 
This statement could also be the student passed a mid-term before a holiday break.

So statements like "OFA tested, vet checked, and health screened" are problems for me when stated about Prelims. It is phased in a way that a buyer will assume complete OFA health certification with numbers and many buyers do not know that they can and should be able to verify that claim. 

At least a statement like "OFA preliminary rating of Excellent at 10 months" would be accurate. Though not a decision I would make or condone, especially if breeding said 10 month old, it would give the buyer the ability to make their best decision based on accurate and complete information.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> There are two reasons I do not do prelims. The first reason is that once my dogs are mine, they are never going anywhere. The other reason is that I HAVE seen borderline or mild hips go to passing. And I have seen passing prelims go to failing...


Janice - something I always wondered about a little.... when you see hips swing one way or another like that - this is talking OFA prelims vs finals, can you see a big difference in the actual radiographs? 

While I was waiting for Bertie's results - I spent ages going over the posts on the facebook group and every other source I could to really ease my nerves. 

Positioning seems to make a difference - but you can see differences in positioning between one xray and another....


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

This thread wasn't supposed to be about any particular person or breeder. And please, just ignore that person. I don't want my thread to get locked.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have been to meetings where Dr. Keller is a speaker. He does not advocate that one should breed on prelims. And he does advocate sedation and/or anesthesia when the rads are taken, but that will start another argument...






cgriffin said:


> Every vet I worked for had us put dogs under anesthesia for OFA x-rays.



Sally's mom & Cgriffin - is there such a thing as "too sedated"?

I was reading that sedation can cause hips to look looser (more laxity??) than they really are. Is that something of a concern?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

But if a dog is sedated it is noted on the form and taken into consideration when they look at the xrays.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Megora said:


> But if a dog is sedated it is noted on the form and taken into consideration when they look at the xrays.



Excellent point. I had forgotten about that. Thanks!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

You cannot make passing hips failing by sedation. Sedation causes relaxation, you cannot make passing hips look dysplastic. And as Megora noted, it goes on the paperwork you fill out for OFA, so that they take it into consideration. Of the six of mine I have done under sedation, I have gotten 4 Goods and 2 Fairs. The first Fair was a dog that I purchased. Incidentally re radiographed her at 44 months and was unilaterally mildly dysplastic. She was never bred. Oops forgot about three I bred and co own, all done with sedation and also Good.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Dr Keller was adamant at this meeting about preferring sedation, when asked by the audience why the OFA didn't require sedation, period, he did not have an answer.


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## Bentman2 (Sep 30, 2013)

Megora said:


> But if a dog is sedated it is noted on the form and taken into consideration when they look at the xrays.


 
SO, Megora, is it normal to have to sedate the dog in order to get good, readable films? I know Bentley is a train wreck at the vets office normally, but was not sure if the owner was able to help out in these x-rays.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Bentman2 said:


> SO, Megora, is it normal to have to sedate the dog in order to get good, readable films? I know Bentley is a train wreck at the vets office normally, but was not sure if the owner was able to help out in these x-rays.



No vet clinic I know of will let an owner assist for x-Rays. I'm pretty sure it's against OSHA policy because techs need to wear protective gear and monitor their radiation exposure with personal monitors. Which an owner wouldn't typically have, I don't think.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I've always been in with my dogs when they had their hips and elbows done. I did have to wear a lead apron though-very heavy.

My OFA vet retired though, and I have to find a new one, so who knows what the procedure will be there.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

We absolutely do not allow owners to be present. Totally against OSHA regulations. And most awake dogs are not better when their owners are present...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I remember back to my childhood, as a 12 yo, holding the X-ray film for my horse vet to rad the legs. Totally would not be done today... And we did not have aprons on, just lead gloves...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> Thanks Jill for sharing. I also have to ask, what's the rush for breeders to breed on prelims? It's not like these breeders are actually doing anything with their goldens other than breeding so they can't say the pup's "career" is necessitating a rushed breeding.


I speculate in part it is bc enough famous dogs like Peterbuildt have become sterile or had infections/ lowered sperm counts that there is a sense of anxiety. Also,in big kennels of the past, there was a marked difference between a private breeding between your own boy and your own girl as opposed to standing at public stud. It was perfectly acceptable to "prove" your young dog by producing healthy successful litters at home. Then, there is just how nature favors the young lol. Mystic has been frozen and his "stats" as a young dog are off the charts compared to some older dogs I considered for Lushie's first litter. I am in no way advocating for this nor have I done it, but truly I can see why breeding a young male dog on excellent prelims is done as it was the norm for a long time.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Bentman2 said:


> I thank *DanaRuns* and* Ljilly28 *for addressing this subject, very much in detail here. I had proposed this same question of prelims to Ljilly28 last week and she promptly answered my concerns. To be able to further clarify that with statistical data is really helpful. I have yet to have Bentley x-rayed for elbow and hip clearances as he is only 19 month old. My concern was the need of going through the expense of that knowing that he will never be bred but at the same time having enough information about his elbows and hips as to make intelligent decisions on any possible treatment. Ljilly and you, DanaRuns have given me a good amount of insight into that subject and I, and many others on the forum, really do appreciate it. As it stands now, and unless I find more compelling evidence to do so, I will just have prelims done on his elbows and hips, at age 20 months, and use that as a basis for maintaining him. As DanaRuns indicated in her findings, that most final grades are rarely if ever better than the prelims and usually downgraded. I think, based on that assumption, that if Bentley elbows and hips are graded "fair" at prelims, then I will opt for finals. However, a grade of good or excellent, I will probably be content with that. I want him to have the best chance of having a healthy life and that is my basis for any and all consideration in having clearances done. I have never considered breeding him and would not regardless of his clearances, as I know my knowledge and limitations on the subject.


That is a very sensible plan, and makes perfect sense.

On another topic
I think I completely missed something as I havent been on the forum that much- who is the lady above????? I have been wracking my brains to see how this thread slandered anyone- it seems polite and productive???? I know it is helpful to me as it is kind of what I am thinking through right now. why is the lady mad, lol, is what I am trying to figure out. I guess I will now go read where she posted before on the forum.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> I remember back to my childhood, as a 12 yo, holding the X-ray film for my horse vet to rad the legs. Totally would not be done today... And we did not have aprons on, just lead gloves...



Thanks!! Back in my teens I worked in a vet clinic. I was not allowed to help with x-Rays cause OSHA stipulates no minors. And our techs had to wear both the lead aprons and the lead gloves with a clip on radiation monitor.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Brave said:


> Thanks!! Back in my teens I worked in a vet clinic. I was not allowed to help with x-Rays cause OSHA stipulates no minors. And our techs had to wear both the lead aprons and the lead gloves with a clip on radiation monitor.


That just shows how young you are and how old I am!


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I've always been in with my dogs when they had their hips and elbows done. I did have to wear a lead apron though-very heavy.
> 
> My OFA vet retired though, and I have to find a new one, so who knows what the procedure will be there.


Not sure exactly where in Northern WI you are but I give a HUGE recommendation to Dr. Joel Enochs at Valley View Veterinary Hospital in St Croix Falls Wi. 

He does an outstanding job and is very active in the retriever world. Mainly labs but he has a golden too.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I have always been present taking OFA films of my dogs. (I have to wear the lead apron and protective gloves)


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes, but one needs to have a badge on that measures exposure...doesn't matter what your vets do, it is not ok.


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## nancyb (Oct 28, 2012)

*Hip Clearances*

Thanks for you candid opinion. I was always uncomfortable with OVC's clearances at 18mths and would wait until my dogs were 22 - 24 months before doing xrays for clearances. I think OFA's rule of at least 24 months before giving final clearances and having 3 vet's opinions gives you far truer results and is obviously the better method of assessment.


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## Bentman2 (Sep 30, 2013)

Yes, I agree that the time frame is better and represents a standard that everyone should follow. I am not as pleased with the subjective opinion of 3 grading the results. This should be a very scientific measurement and I would think that the results could be accurately measured and one grade given.


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