# Running blinds: Scalloping versus Cast Refusals



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP and I were texting this morning regarding scalloping and cast refusals. It was a great discussion and I thought it might be good for this forum. Anyone want to talk about the difference between the 2 and how to correct for either or both?



MOP, care to chime in on what your thoughts are regarding scalloping and cast refusals? 



And yes I have problems with cast refusals, oh and last weekend, we can add whistle refusals (too many I lost count).


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> MOP and I were texting this morning regarding scalloping and cast refusals. It was a great discussion and I thought it might be good for this forum. Anyone want to talk about the difference between the 2 and how to correct for either or both?
> 
> MOP, care to chime in on what your thoughts are regarding scalloping and cast refusals?


I look forward to this discussion!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

FT I think you know way more than I. You can start


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP HaHa! Not all of us have a great dog like you do.


Here's my descriptions, I don't know if they are close, but here goes.
Cast refusal: Dog is running a blind. Dog sits on whistle. You need the dog to do a left angle back. Dog goes right angle back or right over. Meaning the dog from the beginning of that cast, doesn't attempt to go in the direction of the cast. Basically flips you the paw. Sometimes cast refusal will be combined with a crooked sit, where the dog isn't facing you when you whistle sit them. And sometimes can be combined with a dog that won't look at you when they whistle sit, instead looks in the direction they are going to run once you send them. And often is combined with a handler that doesn't wait for the dog to even come to a complete stop and sit, before the handler throws and arm into a cast direction without waiting at all. 



Scallop: I thought dogs scalloped because of wind pushing them, or terrain changes. Strong winds that move a dog, especially on water. Or a steep side hill that makes a dog drop down a hillside or move up. But sometimes they scallop because they are really going to go in the direction they wanted to go in the beginning. But they initially took your cast and went in that direction, then slowly faded into the direction the dog wanted to go. So you whistle sit the dog, and you realize the line they've run in hasn't changed at all, they are still running on the same line. So I guess I put scalloping into 2 different categories, one that is terrain/weather driven and one that is driven by a dog that wants to go in another direction than the handler wants them to go.


So how to fix all that is the question.....


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

a great dog like I do.....ha ha ha.....you know Proof is the devil incarnate on blinds...

The way I finally fixed it and MAINTAIN it is I don't give proof any more "chances" except on critical casts that pressure would perhaps be counterproductive. 

When he was younger he got a lot more chances and I was just not recognizing scallops as he was making progress to the blind. I just didn't "get it" and it was super frustrating to me. I really couldn't see my blinds objectively because I was so wrapped up in running it. I can still get wrapped up in a very hard meaty blind and forget what proof is doing and focus too much on other things but I am better than I used to. Like I said to you if you are lifting the same arm over and over even if your dog finally makes it to the blind, your dog never took your cast. If I am not recognizing that my trainer will comment, is your right arm tired yet? lol...then I realize I have been casting him right right right. Proof was the master of scallops and my new pup is too, I call her potatoes because how much she loves the scallops. But she is very young so she gets "chances" until she is more solid. Proof is much older and he knows better. 

Now, he takes a scallop or a cast refusal and he gets a correction. It has helped tremendously. Honestly, it is if Proof never understood it as a team sport before and now he is aware he has to work with me...He took advantage of those chances and when I stopped giving them he realized he has to just do it when I say do it, rather than after the third or fourth time I asked....


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska



Is your dog confused? He took a cast, changed his direction, but not the way you wanted. Okay then what did you do? When I think there is confusion I go back to basics. May not be the best way but I will tell you the dog takes the correct cast after that. Basics being a review with casting drills.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

What MOP said!
We are on the zero tolerance for nonsense protocol here. I know that Flyer knows he is to stop on a whistle, take the direction of my cast AND carry it. So correction comes into to play fast and this is not mamby pamby correction. He is still learning to fight suction/factors so it doesn’t have to be the perfect cast, he can overcast but he has to take my cast. As we are working through this our lines are getting better and there is less and less choppy blinds. 
Flyer’s marking did suffer for awhile after I finally went to zero tolerance.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

gdgli said:


> Alaska
> 
> Is your dog confused? He took a cast, changed his direction, but not the way you wanted. Okay then what did you do? When I think there is confusion I go back to basics. May not be the best way but I will tell you the dog takes the correct cast after that. Basics being a review with casting drills.



George,
hard to do a correction at a test. What I should do is stop him before he gets to a place that might be a problem. Then cast him through it. What I did was wait until there was a problem. I should have taken control. But I didn't.


Yes I do need to go back to some drills. I always do wagon wheel and some drills before a test in the morning. Try to make sure we're on the same page. Obviously my morning warm up didn't work. 



FTGoldens,
Can you help us?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

hollyk said:


> I know that Flyer knows he is to stop on a whistle, take the direction of my cast AND carry it. /QUOTE]
> 
> Exactly....
> 
> ...


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP,
Drills are something Riot is also good at. He’s close to me in a drill and knows all about how to be a good dog when I’m right there. That’s why he’s such a good obedience trial dog. That High in Trial shows it.

What I was thinking about for a drill was a little different. I was thinking of using some big open mowed fields with no features in the area. Set out a pile 300-400 yards away that Riot doesn’t know where it is. Then running a blind with him. Remove all the factors except him and I. And just say here we go, we’ll drill through this. Then I’d like to gradually increase distractions and terrain features as we get better over time. 

I don’t think returning to double T will make a difference. I don’t think swim by will make a difference. He knows those drills. There will be no surprises. He’s a good drill dog. I know I need to be a lot harder on him. 

The one thing I’m not totally sure about is getting better on water blinds.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

STACEY NO MORE PILES with Riot for awhile!!!!!!

You are simply reenforcing his idea that he knows where it is. The first time is a cold blind but after that he is just going to start lining them. 

Only cold blinds right now. Get those corrections in and teach him that you are the leader and the only one that knows where the bird is. Stop making excuses for everything. Riot was sent off to a Pro for basics. He knows what is expected and since you don't hold him to the same standard I guarantee Steve did he takes even MORE advantage of his mama. 

the Bottom line is that none of this is going to work if you don't hold him to a higher standard.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

With Winter I ran a lot of drills. I used them to keep her confidence and momentum up. She’s a dog that would have benefited from a scoop of confidence. On her way to the Master title we ran memory and lining drills all the time and it gave her a boost to look out and know she was right and that helped us. I also was careful with correction. We were always building momentum in her. I’m still doing it in the obedience ring. 
FlyBoy, well he came packed with confidence. I don’t think about building in momentum. I work hard at building in control. 
It’’s took me awhile to stop giving Flyer the benefit of the doubt, he’s not sure, he doesn’t know, yada, yada, yada. Once I raised the bar I found out Flyer did know and that’s when our blind work got better.

I can’t tell, where are you with Riot? 
Does he always stop on your whistle? take a cast? initial line?


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

There's so much already covered in this thread that I'm going to go back to the original questions/issues. Maybe this will cause us to head in another direction.

As for the definitions of scallop and cast refusal, Alaska pretty much covered them in post #4. (A cast refusal is much more severe than a scallop ... and I judge them as such.)

Alaska also mentioned that she is having some whistle refusals, that's fodder for a different thread ... but "sit" means sit. You cannot get a good cast without a good sit.

Correcting bad casts/bad casting habits is an issue which plagues us all! Even dogs which run great blinds will hit a point where they stop casting well. So there's no sure fire, permanent "fix it," but here are some thoughts, as well as come questions, about casting on blinds.

1. Does the dog REALLY know what he is supposed to do when he's given a cast?
> We will assume that he does because he's been taught in basics ... T, TT and swim-by. If there's any doubt, revisit basics.

2. Why isn't he casting properly?
>This is where "reading" your dog is critical; similarly, as MOP pointed out, reading the blind (i.e., recognizing the factors/influencers in a blind) is equally important.
> Is he being stubborn? If so, what must you do to get him to understand that you are the boss; it's not a request, but it's a command; that he'll not get the reward/bumper/bird if he doesn't comply with the command.
> Is he influenced by certain factors? Look for them, including wind, terrain, cover, visibility, shoreline, "big" water, etc. Maybe he handles some of them well, and others not so well.

3. Consider simplifying your casts to only backs and overs for a while (no angle backs) ... make it clear to the dog, this also makes it clear to the handler if the dog isn't complying with the command.

4. KEY POINT: This has been mentioned, but it deserves repeating ... when running a blind in training, the purpose is to get the dog to TAKE THE CASTS GIVEN, it is NOT to get the blind in the fewest casts possible. Example: You are running a water blind, the bumper is on the dam; the dog is 10 yards from the dam, even if the dog is on line, stop him and cast him to the right so he must swim parallel to the dam; odds are that he'll want to swim toward the dam, but don't let that happen ... stop him, call him in a bit if necessary, then repeat the cast; repeat the cast to the right until he submits (or understands) and starts swimming parallel to the dam. Once he's taken the cast, stop him and cast him to the left, keep him heading left until he gets past the bumper, then cast him back to the right; then you can either let him get the bumper or keep casting back and forth. 
Also, don't nit-pick on the blinds, whether on land or water. Give a cast and let the dog carry the cast for 10, 20, 30 yards, even if the dog has crossed the actual line to the blind. This is very hard to make yourself do, but it's better training for the dog. 

5. If the dog doesn't take the cast given, stop him as soon as you realize that he didn't take the cast, then you should probably correct (which may be a collar correction or simply a loud "NO"), then repeat the cast; keep this up until you get the cast ... DO NOT GIVE UP ON THE DOG OR THE CAST, stick with it until you get it. Note that you may have to call him in a bit if he's gotten too far off line. ALSO NOTE, bringing him in, even a little bit, will break his momentum, which has been taking him in the wrong direction, so that's a side-benefit. Again, insist on THE Cast.

6. Run blinds downwind, into the wind, right cross-wind, left cross-wind, quartering headwinds and tailwinds; run them on sides of hills, across roads, across rows, etc. Be sure to get good casts in every circumstance.

Alaska, as for Riot, I'd not let him line a blind for a couple weeks, even if he's dead-azz on line. He must realize that he won't get his bumper/bird unless he listens and obeys THE BOSS.
And regarding blind drills, I'd hold off for a couple of weeks on these as well, and when you start them again, I'd have a minimum of 5 - 6, maybe more, piles in the field at varying distances (so he'll have to run past some of them), marked with flags or stakes if you'd like. Line him to one, but stop him and cast him to another.

Those are my initial thoughts, maybe some are worthwhile, some probably aren't. 
Looking forward to further discussion.

FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I’ve been reading and thinking about this since FTposted. I think I give up sometimes, not every time. I think when he goes the way he wants to go. I think I give in and find a way to make it work. Not every time, but enough of the time to keep him thinking that if he continues to blow me off, eventually I’ll give up. 

Last winter we had issues with casting. So I went through double T from start to finish in the snow. He knows the drills. He doesn’t lack confidence. It’s me that lacks confidence. So now we’re off to train and see if we can get back on track. I really don’t want to miss out on the last of the season hunt tests and field trials.


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

my $0.02 and a few quick bullets regarding scalloping and CRs:

- Instead of drills run lots of cold blinds under lots of different field conditions. This will help to build teamwork and help you to understand how your dog works with varied terrain. With this experience you can proactively handle to prevent those cast refusals or scalloping later. 

- Take your time when handling. There is no need to be in a hurry. Wait a few seconds (or more) before casting. 

- I like using more attrition than correction especially with a golden. This will require more patience for you the handler. On a scallop or CR, whistle for quick stop, pause and recast. Blow another quick whistle and repeat until the proper direction is attained.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Last week Riot and I ran a lot of cold blinds. Shortest were probably 200 yards. Most were over 300 yards. Mostly on fields without much cover, but with lots of distractions (people, bikes, kids, other dogs). In the beginning Riot was a jerk and really blew me off a lot. He completely auto cast and really would even stop and look for the bumper if he thought there should be a bumper by a bush or something nearby. I didn't use attrition. I used pressure all the way. I've used attrition on him in the past, but he's past that now. Saying NO, does have an impact on him, but NO with a nick has the biggest impact. But after a few blinds, he started paying more attention to what I wanted. After a lot of blinds he finally stopped auto casting and quit looking for the bumper on his own. He finally decided I was in charge. Our battles aren't over, but they are a lot better. I did make sure I ran the blinds in all different directions. I really focused on getting that cast. If I gave him a right angle back and he took a left over. I'd whistle sit him, nick, whistle sit, wait a few seconds, call him here a bit, sit him again, nick, whistle. Then give that right angle back again. If I did this 2 or 3 times and didn't get the direction I wanted, I'd take a bumper out of my back pocket and toss it over his shoulder in the direction of that right angle back cast. I then would give him that right angle back cast. I'd stop him part way back as he returned with that bumper, walk back to where I was previously standing, then give him another right angle back. He'd have the hint then of what I was asking. I did set out several bumpers at each location, so I could re-run that same blind again. Even though he knew where the bumper was, I still stopped him part way once or twice. Sometimes I stopped him and sent him to a different blinds, which really messed with him. He's a very diligent hard working dog. He's smart and steady and really likes to work. He recovers well. After last week's hard work, we took last weekend off


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

We also cast after he had the bumper.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Sweese said:


> I like using more attrition than correction "especially with a golden."


I recognize that this is qualified with "I like," but this is a bit of a stereotype. Truly, it depends on the particular Golden. And from what I know about Riot, he'll take advantage of those second chances ... and third, and fourth, and .... 
I'm not saying that he needs to be crushed if he fails to take a cast, but he knows what an "over" is and should be corrected if he ignores it.
But I totally agree that some dogs, whether black or gold, benefit more from attrition than a collar correction, that's where reading the dog is important.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> We also cast after he had the bumper.


Oddly enough Riot has always handled bird in mouth. He’s never had a problem with it. He’s also a bit sticky lately though... If it isn’t one thing, its another when it comes to training dogs!

Last year I read a story about a dog running it’s last field trial. I think the dog was 12 or 13, so pretty old for running field trials. Anyway, dog is all happy walking to the line. Handler calls for the birds, and the dog broke on the flyer! There you go, breaking to the end. I bet that dog had a smile on his face!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That doesn't surprise me, since he has the bird which is what he wants. We found it different with just bumpers. They seem always optimistic that there might be a bird out there!



Alaska7133 said:


> Oddly enough Riot has always handled bird in mouth. He’s never had a problem with it. He’s also a bit sticky lately though... If it isn’t one thing, its another when it comes to training dogs!
> 
> Last year I read a story about a dog running it’s last field trial. I think the dog was 12 or 13, so pretty old for running field trials. Anyway, dog is all happy walking to the line. Handler calls for the birds, and the dog broke on the flyer! There you go, breaking to the end. I bet that dog had a smile on his face!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

MoP


I have discussed running blinds with you before and of course I do ultimately think you are right. 

OK, so how do you differentiate between "lack of effort" errors as opposed to "effort errors"? Connie Cleveland says effort errors are characterized typically with one of two responses: 1) dog does nothing or 2) dog offers the wrong behavior. In Staceys example, the dog took the cast but gave a right angle back rather than a left angle back. Dog offered wrong behavior. Do you really want to correct when the dog took a cast? That is not a cast refusal as Stacey says but rather a wrong cast which I have seen really "hot" dogs do, especially when you cast quickly. A lack of effort error on the other hand is characterized by inattentiveness or distraction.


And just to throw another factor into this---what happened with the dog before that whistle was blown? I saw a dog become disobedient in the field because it came across a snake, probably bitten by it (discovered after the fact).


#DEVIL'S ADVOCATE


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

gdgli said:


> OK, so how do you differentiate between "lack of effort" errors as opposed to "effort errors"? Connie Cleveland says effort errors are characterized typically with one of two responses: 1) dog does nothing or 2) dog offers the wrong behavior. In Staceys example, the dog took the cast but gave a right angle back rather than a left angle back. Dog offered wrong behavior. Do you really want to correct when the dog took a cast? That is not a cast refusal as Stacey says but rather a wrong cast which I have seen really "hot" dogs do, especially when you cast quickly. A lack of effort error on the other hand is characterized by inattentiveness or distraction.


I see what you're saying here. But I think you are way overthinking the situation and trying too hard to give the dog the benefit of the doubt. A dog taking a blatantly wrong cast IS giving a lack of effort. If you use any sort of cast with your right arm and the dog takes off in any sort of left direction, I'm sorry, that is way blatant. That's not a cast refusal, it's a complete F-YOU moment from the dog. It's a lack of effort to follow direction and be a team player. Unacceptable. In a dog anything beyond a very early blind runner, that's an IMMEDIATE big whistle and probably a very big correction on the collar. The first time it happens. "Lack of effort" doesn't always mean the dog just sits there and does nothing. And in fact, even apparent "lack of effort" no-goes, pops, etc can certainly be a very biddable dog being confused or afraid to do the wrong thing...certainly the opposite of lack of effort. This is where the ART of being a good dog trainer comes in. You need to have a plastic, dynamic ability to read the dog in the situation. It's the hardest thing to do!



> And just to throw another factor into this---what happened with the dog before that whistle was blown? I saw a dog become disobedient in the field because it came across a snake, probably bitten by it (discovered after the fact).
> #DEVIL'S ADVOCATE


This probably happens once in 10,000,000 whistles. IOW, situations like this are not worth considering. Yes, sometimes dogs do make honest mistakes. I.e. don't blow a dog up because he slipped your whistle in running water...he probably genuinely didn't hear it. 

Stacey (and George) --- I LOVE that you are running big, simple blinds in big open fields with few factors. 
This is what I do 95% of the time in training. 200-400 yard blinds in big open fields, low cover, basically no factors but wind and distance. COLD blinds. All the time. NO REPEATING EVER on these blinds. These are great for confidence but also great for exposing lack of fundamentals on the dog. If the dog is not sitting perfectly and taking perfect casts, you have no one but yourself to blame. It's not deceiving because there are so few factors. 

To me, a dog at above-Senior level blind running capabilities....again I will say, going anywhere left on a cast when you gave a cast with your right arm, is BLATANT DISOBEDIENCE. It's so far beyond a cast refusal. **** To me, at this level, a cast refusal is going 45º angle back right when you gave a 30º angle back right cast. That is the kind of cast refusal you can improve with simple attrition. 

****Of course I can also think of examples where you might give a right cast and the dog goes left. Perfect example would be a dog who was just forced for a pop. The next time you stop him he already is worried that he's gonna get it. You give a right straight back and he spins left and takes a left straight back. Really, in a big open field with a big huge blind, that is not an important cast difference. You wanted him to go straight back and he did. He was worried. He just got fried for not going. His biggest concern was to GO and to do it pronto. His desire to be compliant and do the right thing overall overrode his ability to process the details of the command. Big deal. This is a dog showing A LOT of effort. To immediately stop him after his bad cast or even worse, correct him with the collar, would be totally unfair. It's stuff like that that creates really messed up dogs. In that situation you positively have to let him take that bad cast because there were extenuating circumstances. But also observe...the circumstance was created by the DOG, and the HANDLER. In the previous instance the dog made a mistake (pop) and was corrected (handler). His secondary mistake (bad cast on next stop) was caused by this. Not because of terrain, or the blind itself, or some other excuse in the field. It was totally generated by dog and handler.

I've been off of GRF for a few weeks because they mysteriously changed my password and I was too lazy to get them to send me a new one.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

really couldn't have said it any better than what Anney just explained. Especially on the part of effort and when NOT to get on them. Another example is points. When they are young you tell them don't get out of the water too early. Then you have a point they have to get on and off of and now they are like, what??? I can't do that, I can't do that. So attrition is more important here than pressure. I understand you are confused and nervous, I will work you through this buddy. 

The hard part of training a dog is gaining the finesse to properly read the dog and know when to correct. Hopefully in ten years I will have that finesse or at least a little more than I have now. 

Here is how I look at cast refusals. It isn't about refusing to cast it is immediately refusing to take the cast I tell you to. So the dog is running left and wants to go left. Sometimes there aren't any factors they just get it in their head they know where the blind is. I stop him and tell him to go right. Sit, cast, but the dog just turned and immediately goes left. He refused my cast because he wanted to go left and by golly that is where he is going to go. No confusion on the part of the dog but a complete lack of effort to do what I say or shoot even work with me as a partner. He is all on his own here. Perhaps that is how you can understand better if the dog is blowing you off. Watch where he wanted to go all along and if he took a cast but it was back to where he was headed he just refused you. 

I love my dogs. I love them so much its unhealthy. That is why its hard for me to get on them but if I want us to succeed (and obviously I do or I wouldn't enter trials) then I have to pull my big girl panties on and show my dog how it needs to be done otherwise this is a wasted endeavor.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

We're definitely in the lack of effort category. No doubt. There's no confusion. This problem has all been created by me and my training. He is so incredibly fast on blinds. When I say dead bird back, he's gone in a flash. 



So I've stepped it up a notch and he's way better. We've got a long way to go when you've allowed a bad behavior to continue for awhile. To undo that damage will take time and diligence on my part to not give in and just get him to the blind however he gets there. He's capable of so much more. 



This entire issue is not an issue with the dog, it is an issue created by the handler. Dog needs better control, handler needs to get their act together, make adjustments in their program and keep moving forward. Blinds are a lot to learn...


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Stacey this is exactly how I feel and how it is between me and Proof. And yes, I know the right things to say and I know the right answers but just like you said, I say dead bird back and he is gone in a flash. Executing the right thing is terribly hard for me. 

What I do want to say is don't think it will take a long long time to get Riot on track. If you are consistent it will come faster than you thought. We failed an amateur around October because he was out of control on a land blind. I had enough. I realized this is never gonna happen if I don't pull my $hit together. I busted his balls and the first week of December we jammed an amateur and his blinds were beautiful. He took every cast. 

These dogs are smart, fast and want to get the bird no matter what. Once they realize its much faster to just do it my way it seems to just click for them. That doesn't mean proof doesn't scallop or have a cast refusal anymore. But its clearer to both of us and corrections are much more efficient than before. Kind of like maintenance in a way. Now he's been up north this summer and I have to be very careful to correct him the minute he plays me because I don't want all that hard work we did last year to fly out the window because I don't hold him to the same standard J held him at. It will be hard but I have to do it.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

k9-Design


Snake was merely an example. Yellow jackets and an inappropriate correction or accidental correction may do the same thing. I am embarrassed to say that I have accidentally hit the nic button while running my dogs. I know, stupid me.



As for the blinds I run, I run what my fields allow me to run. I do live in NYC. However when I travel the 85+ miles to Stewart Forest, I will do my best to run a blind that I have seen at a field trial there. Last successful one was what I saw at a Q. Last tough to duplicate setup had a goose nest on he point and included an aggressive goose that came into the water after my dogs. 



I do my best.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Just don't be "one of those people" who always has an excuse. Either they have an excuse why their dog messed up or an excuse why they can't train in a certain way. Surely you run blinds more often than when you travel 85 miles each way. Surely there's a field within 85 miles of NYC 
It would have to be a once in a lifetime event for me to say my dog messed up a blind because of snakes, yellowjackets, bees, geese, white cars in the background, bird boys making noise, gallery eating sandwiches, alligators, volcanoes, tornadoes, extraterrestrials, or any other extenuating circumstance running a blind. More likely my dog messed up because he caved to a factor, avoided a hazard, wasn't paying attention, was being defiant because he thought he knew better, or because his training wasn't up to the level of the task I was asking him to do. That is either my fault or the dog's fault. Not the fault of some weird exogenous element you had no control over. The former is the culprit 99% of the time, the latter is the culprit 1% of the time.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

No excuses, I blame myself for failures in my training. Live and learn. PS My dog is not the one that was bitten. My dog also is not the one stung by yellow jackets but it did happen. Maybe rare and I did post to stimulate discussion hence the usage of my hashtag. 

Hey, maybe we train in the wrong places.:smile2:


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

......87 miles drive one way once or twice a week to train with Pro all summer. Lots of podcasts and books downloaded from library.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Indulge me, let me have a little fun. All of the above comments are good ones and I know you mean well. I know that my problems are not like your problems.


Stacey, my apologies for diverging from original thread.




Re: Stewart Forest Travel time---2h 20min each way; Tolls, two bridges ---$22; Distance---87 miles; Permitted use---Tuesday only; Ponds---three usable, others not permitted; Restrictions---club is on a rotation for usage, three training groups rotate fields and ponds on a weekly basis; State Restrictions---no flyers, shared usage with bicyclists, hikers, lovers, and State Issued TRP (Temporary Revocable Permit) required, insurance required, have paperwork on hand since enforcement shows up to check; Encumbrances (IMO)---unmowed fields, very little access to pond edges.


Re: Goose Nest---I have an ethical problem running a dog through a goose nest with either hatchlings or eggs. I have not seen a goose interact with a dog while nesting. I have seen them swim away later in the season. However I have seen what a goose does while protecting goslings from a swan. And I saw what this goose did---it swam directly at us (Ah, the wonders of nature). I have seen a goose do the broken wing trick---swim just a few yards from the threat, squawk, flap wings, fly a few yards just out of reach. Let me beat you to it---I know, obedient dog won't chase the goose. A swan might try to drown a dog. Do you have nesting Canadas in your parts?


Re: Fields closer than 87 miles---Sure, a big one on the corner of Central Park South and Fifth Avenue. Fields close to me are soccer fields/baseball fields. Distance for retrieves is a problem, I can't get the distances I want. Also, fields are unfenced and I am bordered by Union Turnpike and Francis Lewis Blvd. I still use the fields and am always on the lookout for pitbulls, very popular here. PS I am reluctant to set up remote wingers that fire a blank.
Fields on Long Island, 40 miles---Just lost one in Smithtown, new management and slated for development. Was a nice field. Stonybrook property I believe is on borrowed time. There is development plus it belongs to Stonybrook University, kind of use it with questionable permission. I have run blinds with deer in the field. 


Otis Pike Preserve 55 miles---Generally must walk in several hundred yards. Tough to manage two dogs, two wingers, etc. My girlfriend objected being turned into a pack animal. (Maybe I need a new GF, when they are new they try harder.)


Horse Farm with Bobby G 60 miles---Saturdays only, with Bobby only and his dog is on the disabled list right now so no training.


Salt Marsh 15 miles plus a boat ride---changing tides, boat traffic, and those obnoxious greenhead flies. If you have not been on a salt marsh to experience them don't even think about commenting. They bite through clothing to draw blood. https://bitingflytrap.com/blogs/news/5-facts-you-didn-t-know-about-greenheads


And so I repeat, I run what my fields allow me to run. I do my best. No excuses for dog underperforming, I need to do a better job training. :smile2:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I like your excuses better 
Just kidding. Unless we own our own property, it's a challenge for everyone to field train. Where there's a will there's a way.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

George,
I feel for you. It's so hard to find places. It's a nationwide problem. Some clubs are lucky and own their own grounds. But the pressures grow all the time to access areas we want to use.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Stacey, it is unbelievably difficult on the Island. That's why there are people traveling over 100 miles to train at Stewart. PLUS I know that I am violating leash laws in the other places I train. But I continue...


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

I suspect that we can generally agree that most of us who train for field have certain impediments to keep us from training as often as we would like, or from training as long as we want, or from training on the type of terrain that we would like, or from training on the sort of water that we'd like, or etc., etc., etc., ... but we do the best that we can. 

I can assure you that it is possible to train a dog to an extremely high level even if you don't own real estate other than a subdivision lot on which your home sits, you work full-time+, you have family obligations, you don't have a pile of money at your disposal, and you don't have a pro as a mentor. 

Step back and be objective:
*Decide what level you want to get your dog to.
*Do an honest evaluation of your dog's strengths and weaknesses (make a list and update it as things change).
*Do an honest evaluation of your own strengths and weaknesses as a trainer and handler (a good trainer isn't necessarily a good handler, and vice-versa ... so judge yourself in both jobs).
*Determine what it will take to improve on your dog's and your own weaknesses.
*Determine the steps (i.e., the baby steps) along the route to get your dog and yourself (as a trainer and a handler) to the level you desire.
*Figure out how to progress along each step (i.e., put together a training plan).
*Then work through your plan. (Revise your plan as needed or as things change.)


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Back to the original post ....

One thing that I failed to mention earlier is to make sure that you are giving clear casts to your dog. Be sure that when casting, your arm is straight and in the position most visible to your dog. Oftentimes, a handler's casting arm is actually angled behind them, giving the dog only a view of a portion of their arm. (It's not unusual to see this when judging amateurs ... but the pros rarely make this mistake.) Sometimes I'll ask my training partners to watch my casts to make sure that they are clear and as visible as possible.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

FT,
Thanks for all your help. 
Last night Riot continued to improve. I think I’m improving a little too. Waiting is becoming easier. Becoming patient is hard. But calling him back when he goes the wrong way, then recasting is really helping.
I’ve been really spending the time getting him to run in the direction of the cast, no matter how many times it takes to get him there. He’s getting more compliant.
Last night we ran a really long blind along an intermittent tree line. Riot kept wanting to duck in behind the trees. I had a hard time pulling him back out of the trees and back on line, especially the farther out he got. I did move up once to really focus on getting him past a break in the treeline. Then the next blind was up a series of hills with the blind ending midway up the last hill. He’s finally stopped running up on top of hills every time. Getting him to end a blind midway up a hill has been a struggle. 
We ran a few other blinds. Then finished with an angle down a hill across a valley, and angle up a hill on the other side. He initially squared up. So I called him back and re-sent and he ran exactly where I wanted him to go. 
We’ll get there. Now I need to get back to water work. Saving that for Sunday. Water blinds are a whole other animal.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

In the past two weeks I have been upping my game. We have been running many blinds, keeping all above advice in mind.


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

*Running Blinds*

I am way behind in reading the thread, this is a very good thread. This is my experience:

Dog #1(retired): A total nut and a mind of his own, He would break when you said dead bird, he was gone. 
1) Very slow to a crawl in coming to the line, no excitement on the line and very soft spoken, very precise and slow casting, even a double whistle at times to allow him to focus.(once a trial I could get away with it) keep his line very tight or he would be gone.
2) Training: A very high standard, no leeway. Could handle collar pressure but a NO and making him sit for 30 seconds worked the best on cast mistakes. Wagon wheel drills and Chinese drills( Rex Carr drill, no marks included) worked the best. Had to do them at least once a week or more, to be sharp, had to wear him out. Water marks were more an issue as he wanted to go out to sea. Thats another story though. 

Dog #2: Young dog 16/17 months: 
1)Very biddable, a BIG THINKER, not as much go as dog #1 but enough. Precision caster, stops on a whistle 300 yrds out a few feet from bird.
2) Training: Need to speed everything up, dont mess around on line, line her up and go, will take a cast anywhere, anyplace you want her too. Biggest problem is looking out and initial line. Excels at pattern blinds,sight blinds,BB blinds, any drill you want because she is confident. At this point we are strictly cold blinds, 3-5 a training session. We are very lenient on the initial line because the goal is to get her to go and I dont care where just go. In time she should be a great blind runner.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> I am way behind in reading the thread, this is a very good thread. This is my experience:
> 
> Dog #1(retired): A total nut and a mind of his own, He would break when you said dead bird, he was gone.
> 1) Very slow to a crawl in coming to the line, no excitement on the line and very soft spoken, very precise and slow casting, even a double whistle at times to allow him to focus.(once a trial I could get away with it) keep his line very tight or he would be gone.
> ...



Thanks for your thoughts.


On Dog #1, when you say slow to a crawl to the line, are you going slow or is the dog going slow? Or are you going slow to keep the dog from racing to the line? When you say soft spoken, do you mean you are the soft spoken one at the line, as in being very quiet when you send your dog? I'm just trying to picture you and your dog as you go to the line and how you are at the line once you are there.



On Dog #2, is she a head swinger too? What factors do you consider if you think she will be a great blind runner in the future? How was she on drills like double T? Does she get bored easily with drills?


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

*Running Blinds*



Alaska7133 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts.
> 
> 
> On Dog #1, when you say slow to a crawl to the line, are you going slow or is the dog going slow? Or are you going slow to keep the dog from racing to the line? When you say soft spoken, do you mean you are the soft spoken one at the line, as in being very quiet when you send your dog? I'm just trying to picture you and your dog as you go to the line and how you are at the line once you are there.
> ...


Dog #1 knew 1 word GO! I had to do everything in my power to slow him down. I couldn't trust the dog then and even at 14 I cant let him out without a leash or he is gone. He was never able to be a full inside dog because of severe pacing so he stayed in the kennel during the day and inside at night in a kennel. He was just a nut. I walked very slow to the line almost tippy toe in training and a trial because he was so high. I had to set the standard that way, so both of us went very slow. The louder my voice was the more excited he would become so my cues were at a whisper: ie, dead bird back, easy command on a short retired. Only loud word I used was SIT before I signaled for birds. He was not a breaker or creeper. He only broke once and that was in the 4th series of a Amateur on honor, which was handler error.

Dog #2 is totally different, she will lay on the sofa at night and when I say night night time she goes upstairs jumps up on the bed and puts her head on the pillow until she wakes me up around 5:30 to play. She is not a head swinger, very focused and relaxed on line, going up and sitting and checking the situation out and focuses on the long gun She has a good memory and has no problem going long. She is young so who knows how she will really turn out after the transition stage, but she is a total team player and trusts me from 300 yrds or more on whistle sits. I have complete control of her at all times. She loves drills and loves to work because she is confident with them. She picked the T up very easy and quick. I am not big on the double T though. I am learning to appreciate this type of dog more and more.If you teach and show her she will understand through repetition. Her issues that she has now I believe are immaturity and confidence,


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Dog #2 sounds like Bally. 
Tricky initial lines are a lot of pressure for him. Lots of long cold blinds without tricky initial lines, actually improve initial lines over time. 
I do not do any sort of repeating blinds, it is just exercise. He is a rock star at any sort of drill, so we really don't drill too much.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> Dog #1 knew 1 word GO! I had to do everything in my power to slow him down. I couldn't trust the dog then and even at 14 I cant let him out without a leash or he is gone. He was never able to be a full inside dog because of severe pacing so he stayed in the kennel during the day and inside at night in a kennel. He was just a nut. I walked very slow to the line almost tippy toe in training and a trial because he was so high. I had to set the standard that way, so both of us went very slow. The louder my voice was the more excited he would become so my cues were at a whisper: ie, dead bird back, easy command on a short retired. Only loud word I used was SIT before I signaled for birds. He was not a breaker or creeper. He only broke once and that was in the 4th series of a Amateur on honor, which was handler error.
> 
> Dog #2 is totally different, she will lay on the sofa at night and when I say night night time she goes upstairs jumps up on the bed and puts her head on the pillow until she wakes me up around 5:30 to play. She is not a head swinger, very focused and relaxed on line, going up and sitting and checking the situation out and focuses on the long gun She has a good memory and has no problem going long. She is young so who knows how she will really turn out after the transition stage, but she is a total team player and trusts me from 300 yrds or more on whistle sits. I have complete control of her at all times. She loves drills and loves to work because she is confident with them. She picked the T up very easy and quick. I am not big on the double T though. I am learning to appreciate this type of dog more and more.If you teach and show her she will understand through repetition. Her issues that she has now I believe are immaturity and confidence,


Dog #1 ... hmmm, that sounds strangely familiar.

Dog #2 ... I've not yet had one meeting that level of pliability, but one of my training buddies has an 8 month old that seems to fit that description ... she's a quick learner, very nice dog!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Edward Lee Nelson said:


> I am way behind in reading the thread, this is a very good thread. This is my experience:
> 
> Dog #1(retired): A total nut and a mind of his own, He would break when you said dead bird, he was gone.
> 1) Very slow to a crawl in coming to the line, no excitement on the line and very soft spoken, very precise and slow casting, even a double whistle at times to allow him to focus.(once a trial I could get away with it) keep his line very tight or he would be gone.
> ...


OHHHH that Dog #1 sounds so so so familiar. Autocast is her nickname. Had to learn to sit her and wait a count of 3 before casting to convince her to go in my direction and not hers. Excited to come to the line, but a stern sit at the line is always needed. When we get to the blind line I tell her in the holding blind dead bird, once on the mat I let her scout shortly and once she looks in the correct direction I give the cue "that's right", dead bird, back. The more bobbing at the line the poorer the initial line. Have to be fast on the whistle or she could end up under the hill and then to Timbuktu. 

On a blind I try to come to the line with a plan. What are the points where I would stop regardless of the dog's line. What are the factors? Wind, terrain. One cast refusal, maybe two but on #3 you come back with correction to original point of cast refusal and I will ask for more effort. Also I have to watch myself for not over casting. Have to be aware to give the same cast as given on the first cast refusal.


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## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

*Running Blinds*



FTGoldens said:


> Dog #1 ... hmmm, that sounds strangely familiar.
> 
> Dog #2 ... I've not yet had one meeting that level of pliability, but one of my training buddies has an 8 month old that seems to fit that description ... she's a quick learner, very nice dog!


FT Goldens, I am like you I like my dogs that are just crazy with go. She is just a different type of dog for me. An example would be after training today she has been laying at my feet all evening just relaxed with not a care in the world. She isn't a pin point marker and marks off the gun but stays in the area and doesn't disturb much terrain. Blinds will come. Time will tell with her progression. Start the Fall Derby season in 2 1/2 weeks. Wish the Derby National was closer but if we go we would miss two weeks of local trials.


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