# bitten by my Golden 18 months old



## michaelk (Jan 7, 2009)

I am very upset. I got bitten by my dog while trying to pull my daughter's sweater out of his mouth. Before he was releasing things no problem. Now he might growl. Finally he has bitten me quite badly and drew blood.​ 
We have got him at for months from a store (I know). We had our doubts but he grew up quite a Golden. Sweet as he is his behavior deteriorated to this point. Before he snapped a couple of times my wife but did not broke her skin just leaving bruises. The first time she was trying to pull him off the bed after enforcing the "off" command, the other trying to prevent him biting on his paw.​ 
Now he takes something in his mouth (it looks more like stealing), no damage done, just lying on the floor near the stolen object. If I try to approach he emits a growl and now i am really afraid to get the object back.​ 
Do I get rid of the dog? My wife objects... Please help.​


----------



## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

... a bit more info please.... male????, neutered or intact, any obedience training, food aggression?

.......remind your wife that dogs are not throw away items if they do something wrong - we don't do it with our children!!!!


----------



## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I agree with Gwen. Having a dog is a lifetime commitment. I would start with a thorough vet exam to rule out any medical issues, including having a complete thyroid panel done. If that is all normal, contact an experienced animal behaviorist to work with you and your dog. I'm sure other forum members will be able to offer you additional suggestions as well.


----------



## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

How old is your dog? Is he older and this a new behavior or is he just a pup?


----------



## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

Bailey & Bentley said:


> How old is your dog? Is he older and this a new behavior or is he just a pup?


Considering that he's 18 months old & getting worse from the sounds of it, I'd say that there are dominance issues that need to be dealth with NOW. Yes, a very good animal behaviourist would be in order. As well, if he's not neutered, he should be!

Good luck!


----------



## Bailey & Bentley (Feb 25, 2007)

Gwen said:


> Considering that he's 18 months old & getting worse from the sounds of it, I'd say that there are dominance issues that need to be dealth with NOW. Yes, a very good animal behaviourist would be in order. As well, if he's not neutered, he should be!
> 
> Good luck!


I agree with that.


----------



## michaelk (Jan 7, 2009)

Thank you for your replies so far. The dog is an intact male of 18 months of age. He was to the vet a few times for examinations and shots. Please understand we do not mistreat him. I have an appointment with a canine behaviorist in a week time.
I am not sure what to do and that is why I am here. I cannot keep an aggressive dog in the house. I will do my best but now I cannot be sure. 
He is obedient and now that he's bitten me even more so.
Have we spoiled him?
We trained him to sit, lye down, sit and wait (stay), come, shake hands


----------



## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

michaelk said:


> Thank you for your replies so far. The dog is an intact male of 18 months of age. He was to the vet a few times for examinations and shots. Please understand we do not mistreat him. I have an appointment with a canine behaviorist in a week time.
> 
> Please understand that we are in no way criticizing or accusing you of being abusive with your boy. Things like this do happen and need to be dealt with - just by you asking for assistance is commendable.
> 
> ...


----------



## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

You've received good advice, I just wanted to say again that a dog in pain can be an aggressive dog. Please get him to a good vet for a thorough evaluation in case it is health related. If he was a sweet good natured golden boy and suddenly started behaving like this, I first assume health related. Good luck


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Twenty years ago we had a very dominant and strong Schutzhund bred German Shepherd. Not once did he ever bite or hurt any of us in our family. My gosh he was so intelligent and seemed to understand human language. I felt like he could read my thoughts . He was so gentle with our family and we had a two year old at the time. However - - - - he would go into what Cesar Milan calls today "severe red zone aggression" with other dogs and people. We got him at four months. He was not selected for a police dog program and the breeder was looking for a family to take him. So we don't know what his life was like those first four months. When we brought him home I immediately started an obedience class. That is where we realized there was a problem. He was very aggressive in class and we were isolated from the group. Unfortunately the instructor was not knowledgeable about problems as serious as ours and eventually she told us just that and suggested private training. We worked with a private trainer and that helped to some extent, but as our Sheperhd got older, he grew in his own sense of dominance. He could not be trusted and once he was on alert, there was nothing I could do to stop him. After consulting with a behaviorist, we came to the decision that he should be put down. I was told that no amount of training would help him - - -that it was not safe to have him in a residential area. It was heart wrenching to have such a beautiful dog who didn't fit in with the rest of the world. We didn't want to give up on him, but it was for the best to put him down. We worried about a child innocently coming into our yard and being attacked. We were so niave in what we were dealing with - - - but in the end, we researched the issue, met with qualified professionals, and made the best decision for him and our family.

So to those who say you just don't throw out a dog - - - of course not - - - but please know that sometimes the only alternative is to re-home a dog or put him down. It took us three years to come to the decision we made. Unless you walked in the shoes of someone who has a dog that has extreme issues, you should not make such a general statement that could misguide someone who has a serious problem. 

None of us on this forum have all the facts, but what you have described seems to be a dominance issue. I encourage you to work one on one with with a qualified behaviorist who can sort out the issues.


----------



## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

Marty's Mom said:


> Twenty years ago we had a very dominant and strong Schutzhund bred German Shepherd. Not once did he ever bite or hurt any of us in our family. My gosh he was so intelligent and seemed to understand human language. I felt like he could read my thoughts . He was so gentle with our family and we had a two year old at the time. However - - - - he would go into what Cesar Milan calls today "severe red zone aggression" with strangers. We got him at four months. He was not selected for a police dog program and the breeder was looking for a family to take him. So we don't know what his life was like those first four months. When we brought him home I immediately started training classes with him. That is where we realized there was a problem. He was aggressive with other dogs and people. Eventually he was not allowed in a class. Private training was recommended. As he got older, he grew in his own sense of dominance. He could not be trusted and once he was on alert, there was nothing I could do to stop him. After consulting with a personal trainer and a behaviorist, we came to the decision that he should be put down. I was told that no amount of training would help him - - -that it was not safe to have him in a residential area. It was heart wrenching to have such a beautiful dog who didn't fit in with the rest of the world. We didn't want to give up on him, but it was for the best to put him down. We worried about a child innocently coming into our yard and being attacked. We were so niave in what we were dealing with - - - but in the end, we researched the issue, met with qualified professionals, and made the best decision for him and our family.
> 
> So to those who say you just don't throw out a dog - - - of course not - - - but please know that sometimes the only alternative is to re-home a dog or put him down. It took us three years to come to the decision we made. Unless you walked in the shoes of someone who has a dog that has extreme issues, you should not make such a general statement that could misguide someone who has a serious problem.
> 
> None of us on this forum have all the facts, but what you have described seems to be a dominance issue. I encourage you to work one on one with with a qualified behaviorist who can sort out the issues.


My comment about not throwing a dog away was made about this situation only and before any investigations were done as to why. Your situation is totally different and very sad.

I have had to deal with fear aggression issues with my intact boy who gets his back up whenever he's around large dogs - he was attacked @ a dog park when he was 9 months old. Fortunately, there are no aggression issues around people. What do I do about the issue - I deal with it, control situations and work with him continuously in different situations. Is it working - YES!!!!!!

You're very correct right about the cliche "walk in my shoes for a day". Anyone of us could see ourselves in our position - especially those who are involved in rescue situations where they don't know the whole background. 

I respect your comments totally!


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I would suggest setting an appointment to get him neutered very soon. Until the behaviorist appointment, keep a leash on him at all times. Since you are afraid of being bitten, if you have a leash on him, you can pull him away from the objects he should not have and you can remove him from the furniture. Matter of fact, I would not allow him on any furniture at all until he learns to respect you.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

You said you were taking away your daughter's sweater...how old is your child/children?


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

_In response to : 'My comment about not throwing a dog away was made about this situation only and before any investigations were done as to why. Your situation is totally different and very sad._

_I have had to deal with fear aggression issues with my intact boy who gets his back up whenever he's around large dogs - he was attacked @ a dog park when he was 9 months old. Fortunately, there are no aggression issues around people. What do I do about the issue - I deal with it, control situations and work with him continuously in different situations. Is it working - YES!!!!!!_

_You're very correct right about the cliche "walk in my shoes for a day". Anyone of us could see ourselves in our position - especially those who are involved in rescue situations where they don't know the whole background. _

_I respect your comments totally! Thank you.'_


I guess my problem with your statement is that when you have extreme issues as we did, and you love your dog so very much and just want to be able to go for a walk and live a happy life as others do with their dogs, you will hold out for the least bit of encouragement - - - anything that resonates with your heart. That can be very dangerous with a seriously aggressive dog. It is always best to evaluate the dog and work with a professional. Please know I am not offended and I hope you are not either. I just believe that great care must be used in the simple statements we make on the forum because we don't have all the facts and cannot possibly know what is really going on.


----------



## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

When Augie was about 11 months old he started becoming really pushy and obnoxious. Based on his breeder's advice we had him neutered at 13 months instead of waiting until 18 months and it made all the difference. He has become a big sweet softy boy. 

Sometimes you need to "nip the problem in the bud" literally 

Good Luck to you.


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I've thought long and hard before responding to this thread.

Firstly, any dog has the ability to be dominant, with some dogs they show dominant behaviour right from puppyhood, and this behaviour has to be addressed and adjusted as the dog grows. If any dog resorts to biting, this is usually someway down the line from other behaviours and very rarely comes right out of the blue.

With your situation, the signs seem to have been there for quite some time - as for me, the very first time my dog showed any aggression or possessiveness I would take a long hard look at how to stop this behaviour being repeated. You need to make sure that any items which the dog could steal and then guard are not left within his reach. He has success (in his mind) with this guarding behaviour, so will continue to show it and it is your responsibility to show him another way.

Its like the scenario of the dog barking at the mail man, he has success because the man deposits the mail and then leaves... instant success!!! Thus the dog goes mad every time the mail person is spotted because the barking means the person leaves the property (in the dogs' mind!).

The best advice I can give you right now is: a) get the dog castrated at the earliest opportunity as the intact male has the ability to be much more dominant, b) do not challenge your dog in any way as your dog has learned that biting is the way he can get away from confrontation, do not give him direct eye contact or try to force him to do what you want (what you want is the dog doing what YOU want of its own free will) until the behaviourist can guide you how to achieve this, I wouldn't challenge him for the time being.

Could it be that this aggression is as a result of you forcing your will upon him, thus making him feel defensive? Just a thought.

Lastly, only show affection on your terms. Try to build a relationship with the dog which is based on positive things, you can play games with him, give him a treat or affection when he does the right things, try to make playtime fun with him, at the moment I'm sure the atmosphere around this dog is pretty bad especially as you are probably feeling scared that he may bite again. If you use happy, high pitched voice when speaking to the dog, he will respond much more positively.

Good luck with the trainer, and make sure you drop by here and let us know how it is going. I really sincerely hope you can sort this behaviour out, I have confidence it can be done, but it will depend on your family 'moving on' from this moment and leaving the past behind, for that is how the dog's mind thinks.


----------



## michaelk (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks all. Sorry for responding late. We live in Italy. 
It is a very touchy story Marty's Mom told us. 

I feel like providing more background. The dog is extremely intelligent. It first happens when Oscar (the Golden) was about 5 months old. We had a worker doing repairs around the house at that time. Oscar was grinding his teeth on the worker's steel ladder covered with paint. I said “no” I pulled him gently away by the collar. He started growling. At the time I did not pay much attention but got worried. Afterwards he was taking some things such as shoes, my daughter's toys etc in his mouths, making certain we see him and expecting us to chase him which we foolishly did. He damaged a few things all right but that is all. Other times he would steal things and bring them under the dining table (his liar?) and when you say him “no” he would start growling and showing teeth. I guess he identified other spots where to bring things as well and not just under the dining table. The problem escalated. He snapped my wife's hand twice without breaking skin. Now we ended up bitten me and the very next day her quite badly. My wife plays devil's advocate. In her opinion I had two or three glasses of wine that day and she had next day. It is her who wants to keep the dog. I came across opinions that once a dog bites his owner he is no longer reliable and it is only a matter of time.

My daughter is 10 years old. The way she plays with him I think he considered her a mate. She allowed him to stay over her why on the floor and play tugs of war games. I think he might be jealous as he steals her favorite toys and other things more that others.

I have changed my ways and he seems to have gotten the message. He was allowed in bed. The night following the accident I had to wake up four times and command him “off”. He got the message and has not tried to clime in bed for a few days. In just two days he learned the “pack walk” with me. But he has not stopped growling and trying to snap when he steals an object and I am trying to get it back. He will pick up anything unless caught in flagrante and said “no”. A couch pillo would do. At the same time he licks hands and boisterously greets you at the door. It is all very confusing.

Afterwards he attacked a smaller dog in response which my wife explained away as “legitimate defense”. He will certainly attack some male dogs if let loose. On a walk he pulled unexpectedly on the leash to the point that my wife fell over only because there were two male dogs barking at him from behind a hedge. At the same time he is friendly with other male dogs of his size or even bigger. Please note in Europe in is very unusual to see a neutered male dog. All male dogs I see around are intact. 

Last night he was guarding a sock. From afar I asked him to come and sit and shake hands which he did. I offered a treat well accepted. Having eaten the treat the dog went back to guard the sock. The thing that I do not understand is that he does not really need the sock and does not want me to chase him. 

Even more confusing, this morning he came beside me with another sock. I asked him to sit, he obeyed. Then he dropped the sock and I collected it from below his nose. 

Now please understand me correctly. I will not be able to trust the dog again. And then what pleasure it would be to have to be a tyrant over your dog all the time. I wanted a friend and a companion and not a dog to play power games with. The dog is dominant and will challenge my authority in the future for sure especially now that I will not pull anything from his mouth ever again.


----------



## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I am sorry you are going through this and can relate to the dominance issue and the aggression(although with Asia it is not toward people just some dogs but can be severe) She is also very smart as most Goldens are! It sounds like you are well on your way to establishing yourself as the pack leader.Along with obedience training, I would also suggest looking up the NILF method to add some additional ideas to help with this.If you Google it, you will find it) I truly beleive you will be able to take an item away from him as he gradually defers to you as the leader so don't despair. Asia had some food guarding issues as a younger pup but it was fixable and has not been a problem since. She continues to try to assert her dominance at times but it is much less. The key is to be consistent. I hope it works out for you.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm very sorry you are having these problems with your boy. I know you are disappointed, and it is totally understandable that you don't trust him any more. Is there a good trainer available?

One tip for getting things away from the dog, trade him for it. Offer him a treat or a different toy, when he lets go of what he has give the other item to him, but also pick up and put away whatever you wanted to take from him.

I think he may benefit from "Nothing in Life is Free" training. Here is a link to one description of it, but search around the web for other information on the technique also. Basically, the dog has to perform some command in order to earn everything he gets.

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm


But if the dog is staying in your home, you do need to get some help. We have behaviourists in the US, or trainers who specialize in aggressive dogs, that is what you need. I hope there is something equivalent there.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I think this is a very good article.

http://k9deb.com/socialis.htm


----------



## michaelk (Jan 7, 2009)

Thank you for the article Mylissik. Quite helpful. I will keep you posted


----------



## Osogold (Jan 3, 2009)

Hi,
This is a very interesting thread, after working in vet clinic for the past 15 years, I have seen many dogs with different issues. Neutering a 18 month old male can make the world of difference in a lot of behavioral problems, also working with a behavorist, you might have to start at back at square one with training.


----------



## paranthesis (Jan 14, 2009)

There's such a thing called "bite inhibition" pups learn when they are under 4 months old when they are play fighting with other pups. They learn to use their mouths softly and learn where the threshold is between getting their point across and sending someone to the hospital.

There have been instances of perfectly behaved dogs under extreme circumstances (someone accidentally slamming a car door on their tail, tripping and headbutting a dog while it is chewing on a bone, etc) that absolutely tore a person apart because they never learned bit inhibition. And there have been many instances where extremely poor behaved dogs have constantly nipped at people because they didn't like them, but never broke the skin because they knew their own strength.

I dunno, maybe this is an instance of your dog never being trained to give up something and reacting in a way that it didn't know it's own strength because it never was socialized with other pups. Dogs quickly learn that once something is out of it's possession it is gone forever, unless you teach it otherwise.

Or maybe this is just a case of the Dog feels you are his equal (or worse yet, that you are his servant.) Do you (or your family) give him affection whenever he asks for it? Do you give him human food or treats whenever he asks for it and/or without making him work for it (telling him to sit, lie down, come, etc)? Do you let him jump up on you and others? Do you free range feed him? Do you let him sleep wherever he wants to or let him take over your couch? When you take him for a walk is he the first out the door and always the one leading you around (making you stop every so often so he can sniff)? If so, he probably sees himself as the Alpha leader and you as his loyal servant. BTW, all those things above can be easily corrected with some rules and discipline.


----------



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Great advice from everyone and I would like to add, instead of trying to take something away from him by pulling or forcing him to give it up, I would do a trade for the item with something that he really loves like a toy or a treat. That way it isnt a fight or forcing him to do something that gets his guard up. Plus getting him neutered will help also. It can make such a difference. Hopefully the behaviorist will be able to give you the help you need.


----------



## paranthesis (Jan 14, 2009)

paranthesis said:


> There's such a thing called "bite inhibition" pups learn when they are under 4 months old when they are play fighting with other pups. They learn to use their mouths softly and learn where the threshold is between getting their point across and sending someone to the hospital.
> 
> There have been instances of perfectly behaved dogs under extreme circumstances (someone accidentally slamming a car door on their tail, tripping and headbutting a dog while it is chewing on a bone, etc) that absolutely tore a person apart because they never learned bit inhibition. And there have been many instances where extremely poor behaved dogs have constantly nipped at people because they didn't like them, but never broke the skin because they knew their own strength.
> 
> ...


I might add, if your servant was trying to forcibly grab something out of your hands, you might just punch him one as well.


----------



## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

it might just be adolescent dominance issues: he's testing his place in the home, he had some success and now he's getting more cocky. Hopefully the behaviorist can help with that. Neutering might help for sure.
Good luck! I hope you can get your sweet boy back - he's still in there!


----------



## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

The whole trade thing seemed stupid to me at first. 
But I started thinking of it from the dog's point of view.
Think of it as community policing. If you expect that every time you see a cop he's going to beat you with a night stick or arrest you for no reason, you have one view of the cops.
But if some of the time at least, the officer helps you get a tow truck or write a report about the kids who egged your car, or just says hi, you have a different view.

If all you do is grab things, you condition the dog to expect the worst, and you'll get an uncivil response. Fortunately, I figured this out with a nine week old puppy who's sneaking off to chew a stick rather than wait for a dog who bites, but this problem can be conquered.

And bite inhibition is a huge thing. I never realized how much my old dog was holding back until I went into my pup Tessie's mouth when she was gritting her teeth. She's a lot stronger than she looks and I'm going to play with her tongue and let her lick peanut butter until she understands the difference between my flesh and a tennis ball. 

This problem didn't happen overnight and neither will the solution. But most of all, you need to make sure to keep your daughter safe.

And maybe wine and dogs don't mix.

best
Allen


----------



## michaelk (Jan 7, 2009)

We went for a behaviorist visit last week. To tell the truth I expected more. We have changed our ways and Oscar seems to be changing his ways as well. Next we will look into training him to hold and drop objects.


----------



## Tinsley (Nov 11, 2008)

Just seen this thread. I'm really pleased things seem to be going well.

When you said you don't think you can ever trust him, I don't think that's true, I think you can in time, granted it may be a long time but I think it is possible. I agree with what Parenthesis said about bite inhibition, perhaps he did not learn this as he was a few months old when you got him.

Rupert is still a pup, nearly 5 1/2 mo's, and there have been times he's growled at me when I've gone to remove something from his mouth. He has bitten a couple of times, just latched on and not let go, I know its not exactly possible all the time but with Roo I just let him latch on, took whatever it was I wanted away and he learnt that biting me wouldn't stop me taking something away, if I told him drop and he didn't drop it, I still want whatever it was and I would have it. I don't know if it was the right way to deal with it, but I wasn't prepared to smack him or even shout at him as all he would do was bark at me. I think these were our issues of who is pack leader, and now he will growl playing tug of war, but he'd never ever bite, and I'm pretty sure its a playful growl, he doesn't feel threatened in anyway, its more of a 'grrr give it here let me win Mum!' I've also got him used to having his cheeks gently stroked so he doesn't feel threatened if a hand goes near his mouth.

Keep posting with your progress, hopefully it will just get better and better!


----------



## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

How old is your daughter?


----------



## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

Hi neighbour!
Oh, if your dog is any related to Pelin I know what retriever agression means. I have heard about this dog the most frightening things... But then again I don't thing that is the problem here. I think you have missed a few things in his education. Main mistake what people do is to think of them as human beings and think that every problem can be solved with talk. I'll tell you it can be solved with talk- if you speak dog language. Remember that you are two differen spicies, you have diferent language, gestures, rules. Only things he truly understands are those that his mother taught him and those that are inborn. And you're sending him mixed signals- sometimes something is allowed, sometimes that same thing isn't. How should he know what to do? In animal world "the boss" sleeps in highest place- and leting him sleep in the bed you told him- you're the boss!! And who do you think you are to throw him out his throne after 18 months!! First time he growled you took him on collar- do dogs in pack have collars? What do they do when someone in the pack misbehaves? Have you ever seen what mother does to puppies? She grabs them on neck and pulls them down on the floor forcing them to show their tummy (the most valnurable place) to show them that she's the boss. And food/toy thing - leader of the pack can eat/play with anything anytime he wants. What I do with my dogs- while they're eating I put my hand in their bowl- they shouldn't growl. If they do- I punish them and take away their food and try it again later. Same thing with toys. 
I had the most wonderful dog until his 22 months, then 9 months old alaskan malamute attacked him- first time it was like nothing happened. Second time he attacked him in my own backyard and then he was afraid of him like hell. Two more times he attacked him and turn him into "dominant self defending beast". If I knew back then what I know now I would never allow that. Today he's back on track how he used to be but it took me more than two years to work out things that happened in few days.
Remember- it is NEVER dog's fault. We are the ones who expect from them a lot and without explanation. And we are angy when they can't read our mind and act like toys on batteries. How much time and will you invest in them that much you get in return. I believe it's not too late, you just have to teach yourself before you teach him.


----------

