# Very Interesting Article Regarding "English Cream" Color Goldens



## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

English Cream Color Golden Retriever Facts

I receive a lot of emails regarding English creams and I am never amazed at the misinformation people are given. So I thought I would explain what an “English Cream” is.

First and foremost, there is no such thing as an “English Cream” this is a selling phrase coined by individuals who do not understand basic genetics or breed type. The breed here in the States as a whole, was founded on dogs brought in from various European locations, including England. So in a sense, almost all American born dogs have “English” lineage.

The breed originated in Scotland and was developed through selective breeding done by Lord Tweedmouth from the progeny of a yellow flat coat in a litter of blacks. The appearance of an untypical trait is often the start of many breeds. When you have an unusual color animal in a population of “normal” colored animals, it is often coined a sport. This sport was not the produce of anything magical, but most likely the result of a spontaneous mutation or a meeting of two mutated color genes, ee. The restriction gene E has one allele, e. If a dog has one E gene it will show full color. E is dominant and there only needs to be one gene present in order for full pigment to be seen. The allele e is the recessive form of E. In order for the recessive gene to effect the coat pigment it must occur in homozygous form, ee. With two copies of the recessive e gene, there is no more room for E, and thus you have a “blond” dog no matter the other genes are present. This fact makes it basically impossible for any golden retriever bred to another pure bred golden to produce a non gold (cream to red) coated offspring. In other words, black, blue merle, brindle, etc. do not exist in the golden retriever breed.

Recent color genetic studies have shown evidence that all dogs are black and tan or sable. The other colors we see, black, red, grey, blue, etc, are the result of pleiotropy. This is when one gene effects (as in changes) the expression of other genes.

The reason I am mentioning this is depending what base color a golden is genetically, will decide how the coat colors out. Such as, how much shading it will have, what color the undercoat will be, etc.

In the past it has been said that a golden is a black dog with genes that make them “golden”. We know now, that this is very unlikely. The golden is more likely a black and tan dog or a sable dog with that may or may not carry the recessive k gene (the normal form is K), the gene that allows those colors to be seen or blocks them and makes a dog appear black.

So why is the golden, golden? Remember the E gene and its recessive ee?

The recessive ee allele blocks pigment formation in the hair shaft. This results is a dog that appears gold.

Why are some goldens lighter and some darker?

Remember how I mentioned pleiotropy?

There are many other genes that affect the intensity of pigment. That, combined with the “base color” (black, black and tan or sable) of the dog, will dictate what shade of pigment will be in the animal.

It is believed that the Albinism gene and its alleles are responsible for the washing out of color that changes a golden from any shade of red to cream. The breed as a whole has the potential to produce any shade of golden, from dark to very light gold (sometimes called white). This is not a characteristic indicative to English born animals.

And that is the first myth to be dispelled so I will repeat it; Cream coloring is not indicative to English born and bred animals. It is a normal occurrence in the breed as a whole no matter where they are born.

Okay, on to cream colored dogs.

The alleles of the Albinism gene are C (full pigment), c^ch (chinchilla), c^e (extreme dilution), c^h (Himalayan and not present in dogs), c^p (platinum and theorized by Bowling to be responsible for blue eyed blond Dobermans), and finally c.

It is the allele c^e (extreme dilution) that is most likely responsible for the resulting “white, cream,” golden color. There are possible secondary plus and minus modifiers (that in combination with the animal’s base color) that also affect how the coat pigment.

The recessive alleles of C which affect the pigment intensity do something very interesting. They cannot produce working Tyrosinase which means that the animal is prohibited to some degree (the extreme degree with the albino gene) in making melanin pigment.

It has been shown that melanin plays an important part in the development of the optic nerves of the eye, the nerves of the ear, protective nature of the skin, and even the development of pigment based nerves within areas of the BRAIN stem.

That’s right. The gene that makes “white” goldens is a gene that is actually blocking important and critical chemical compounds that are responsible for the health and functionality of the animal.

So this means cream is bad right?

No. But like any “genetic disease” it has its price and it will have its fall backs, which may take generations to reveal themselves but they are there.

I can here the peanut gallery now scream…you called cream a genetic disease!!!

No, I said “like” a genetic disease. Let me explain. The genes that make a flat faced dog a flat faced dog and a short legged dog, a short legged dog, are considered genetic diseases outside the breed in which the genes are desired. Those genes, while breeders carefully select for them, come with a price. Dwarf breeds cannot have normal joints. Breeders will select for the best and most desirable conformation traits but those breeds will always be abnormal when compared to the normal canine population. These breeds are often more prone to growth related issues and early arthritis and other problems associated with abnormal joints.

It is the same with flat faced breeds. The genes responsible for making a dog have a flat face will often affect other aspects of the animal. They often have elongated pallets, they over heat easier, they have shallow eye sockets that can result in the easier loss of an eye. Flat faced animals cannot have a normal shaped mouth and many breeds have severe teeth issues. This is why these breeds are usually the most artificial in nature and tend to be isolated to the toy group or nonworking where their function is not based on stamina or performance.

It is often very difficult for pet owners and breeders alike to accept the fact that dogs are a conglomeration of genes and alleles that are not conductive to the animal’s survival in nature. Those same genes that make a dog friendly and sweet might make it unable to compete with stronger more dominant canines in the wild. However, these are genes that we have chosen to select for because they make the animal a good companion. With those genes comes a price.

Genes are linked and many genes will affect the expression of other genes in ways you could not imagine. So when we select for genes that make the dog desirable we are most likely selecting for genes and their companions that will inadvertently affect the health of the organism. While breeders select for health and they do their best to produce sound animals, there will always be a correlation of disease in the domesticated dog that is not found in the wild. Nature is far more brutal in her selection of the next generation. In nature, there are no pet homes and there are no exceptions to the game plan. Only a very narrow window of genes will be allowed. This is why all blue birds look so much alike. Any variation in color or size is so insignificant that detecting it is very difficult if not impossible. This is also why wild animal populations are so quickly affected by reduction in genetic variation. They are already so restricted that they can rarely risk loosing more variation.

It is this same logic that will dictate the inevitable effects of selecting pale colored coats in a breed. Breeders that limit themselves by coat color, will select for the diseases and or defects that are the direct result of color restrictive genes.

Those who are involved in white spotted breeds understand this best. The white spotting gene (different from the gene that makes a golden very pale) also blocks pigment formation. We see this gene in Dalmatians (that’s why they are white), white bull terriers, boxers, and other breeds. These same breeds deal with common issues such as deafness and even bizarre neurological disorders like white dog syndrome or shakers. The white spotting gene is linked to neurological impairment and the restriction of pigment is the most likely if not the direct cause of many pigment-restriction related diseases found in white dogs.

Another example of this is the merle gene. Merle is a dominant gene and only takes one to express. It is also an incomplete dominant so that means its effects are not complete. The “blue merle pattern” is an example of the incomplete dominant effects the merle gene has on a black and tan dog. If you put two copies of the M gene together, then you get an almost white dog that is often blind and deaf due to the underdevelopment of ears and eyes that rely on melanin to form.

So does that mean all cream dogs are unhealthy?

Absolutely not!

There are entire breeds that are “cream-whites”. However these breeds often have a great advantage over a “sport”. They have been specifically developed around the color, just as a breed is developed around a physical trait like a flat face or short legs. They have been selecting away from problems that may be associated with the extreme dilution gene for many generations. And I am sure that there are still many issues that remain in these breeds (just as with any extreme gene expression) that they deal with on a regular basis.

Breeders in any established breed that focus on any single trait as their basis for breeding an animal does not understand the disastrous effects that those genes can cause.

Golden retriever breeders in England do not focus on “cream” colored dogs. They breed the whole dog, just as any knowledgeable American breeder. There is color in English bred dogs that is no different than the color found here in the States. The term “English Cream” is a misnomer. Considering most of the “white” goldens originate from Poland, Russia, Australia, and a few from Scotland, that’s kind of like saying you have a “German Rottweiler” from Korea.

The breed type in England is different than the US. But it has nothing to with color or one having a more laid back temperament. The differences are in the overall dog and a conglomeration of small differences that change the look of the dog. To be honest, the average pet owner cannot identify these differences between the two types. They just pick the lighter dog without regard to the rest of the conformation.

Here in the states we have another style of golden referred to as, field type. The field type dog has been developed to be competitive in field based events often competing against the tougher more rugged labs. For field type dogs, speed, endurance, and performance are the number one priority. And while it is important that the dogs keep to the standard of the breed, for field dog breeders, ability, intelligence, and instinct take precedence over coat and bone (i.e. head).

Dogs that are bred for the conformation ring tend to have “more” of everything. This means that they tend to have more head, more coat, more bone. While some choose to keep instinct strong in their breeding program others do not feel this is as important, so they may sacrifice natural hunt drive for the overall picture of a physically outstanding dog. While there are a few conformation dogs that perform in the field, the highly competitive nature of both conformation and field events has successfully split the breed here in the United States making it virtually impossible for a breeder to have success in the ring along with success in the field.

Coat, bone, and substance will weigh a dog down. And while golden breeders would like to think that breeding conformation winners is sticking to the ideal working animal, the fact is, those dogs actually performing all day in the field are more physically designed to do the work. This is the result of unnatural selection over natural. Field type goldens are more influenced by the natural environment than the larger, bulkier, conformation dog that is desired for the ring. And while many conformation dogs are successful in hunt tests this is not the same as the highly competitive arena of field championship competition.

Back to English vs. American.

In England the hunt tests are not like those here in the states. And the breed has not seen the dramatic split of field vs conformation. In England breed type as a whole is more uniform. Although a side note here; I’ve yet to see an English type golden conformation champion, successfully compete in the US field trials and achieve a field championship. A testament to how grueling the competitive venue of US field trials really is. The breed type split here in the US sometimes makes me wonder if we are asking too much of the breed.

. My hat goes off to those breeders who achieve AFC’s and FC’s on their dogs! These people amaze me on a regular basis!

So what does all this mean?

English bred goldens are simply a different body style (and sometimes depending on the US kennel not that different) and the color of the dog is the result of common coat color genes in the breed no matter where the dog originates. (Although once you breed out your color, you can never get it back.) People marketing puppies as “English Creams” are often ignorant of what that really means (or doesn’t mean) and potential puppy buyers who are focused on “English Creams” are often setting themselves up for disappointment.

Any breeder, no matter their location, that has the interest of the breed at heart does not select a potential breeding animal based on color. They do not label it as “English Cream” because they know there is really no such thing. They do not present animals imported from Poland, Scotland, Russia, etc as “English Imports” because they are not from England. They understand that type is a preference of physical traits that supersede the boundaries of land.

Resources:

Control of Canine Genetic Disease, by George Padgett

Coat Color Genetics, by Sue Ann Bowling

Genetics of the Dog, by Malcolm Willis


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Great information!! Definitely a must-read if you are looking for a dog!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

That was actually fascinating to read. The geekie technical stuff didn't cause my eyes to glaze over. I'm saving this for future referral.

Thanks!


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Maybe this should be a sticky under the "Choosing a Breeder/Puppy" section?


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I think it should be a sticky too. We do get many new members who ask about ECG's.


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## Blondie (Oct 10, 2009)

I appreciate your energy in sharing this information with us. Thank you so much! I thoroughly enjoyed reading this.


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## 2dollys (Jan 24, 2011)

Wow, you're smart! Thanks for the interesting information, it was presented in such an understandable way too!


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

Oh my goodness--I should've made it clearer. I didn't write this piece, only copied and pasted. I thought it was incredibly informative and interesting.


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## jpajinag (Nov 25, 2010)

Love this, great information and easy to read. I know a bit about genetics and was happy to see this laid out in a way that anyone could understand (if they want too). I agree this should be a sticky under the "Choosing a Breeder/Puppy" section. Thanks for posting.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Who did write it?


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## jpajinag (Nov 25, 2010)

I think she listed the sources at the bottom???


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

Here is the link. English Cream Color Golden Retriever Facts

Keep in mind...I posted it only as an "interesting article"...it is not gospel. I was just google-ing around on the internet. My hubby was sort of stuck on wanting an "English Cream"...and I wasn't convinced that was even a "type" of Golden Retriever. I've learned there are many different "lines", each somewhat different from each other. 

We all have to decide for ourselves what we believe is true and correct, and sharing information simply expands knowledge and prospectives.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

"And the breed has not seen the dramatic split of field vs conformation. In England breed type as a whole is more uniform"

That is simply not true. There is a huge split between breed dogs and FT dogs and the type is certainly not uniform. We own both FT type and show dogs and they look like totally different breeds. Ft dogs are slighter less bone less coat longer legs weaker heads much more biddable generally but need a job of work to do. The show dogs have much more variation in colour and shape and are heavier have more bone more coat and stronger heads. The last FT bred dog that won at shows was bred by my Mother and did become a breed champion but she was a one off in the litter and nothing ever looked like her again. 
I was also interested in your comment about albino gene and the paler goldens because, on the whole, paler goldens tend to have very good pigment with black roofs to their mouths and frequently black skin. Interesting article but look at pictures of UK working and show type and you will see a huge difference Annef


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## willip (Oct 27, 2010)

very interesting read!
Have to agree with annef though on the uk types. There are MANY GR's where we live...but none look like Chester who is very lean, leggy and short coated...Im not an expert by any means but I think he's a typical field golden. I've been told he's very different from the GRS's that you see at shows but he looks just like the dogs you see in field trials here.
Either way both types are beautiful!!


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

annef said:


> *paler goldens tend to have very good pigment with black roofs to their mouths and frequently black skin.*


This is interesting, Bayne has the black skin and I wondered about that. As a puppy he was pink as the months went by I noticed his private areas getting darker and now I see his skin where the hair separates like on his legs and hips when he sits is very dark. 

Very very interesting article, sure dispels a lot of myths as to the separation of the Golden breed.


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## princesspuppy (Jan 31, 2014)

I breed English Creams, and this great to use for reference purposes. Thanks!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

princesspuppy said:


> I breed English Creams, and this great to use for reference purposes. Thanks!


:doh:

I think you are actually breeding Golden Retrievers!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

princesspuppy said:


> I breed English Creams, and this great to use for reference purposes. Thanks!


Majestic Manor Goldens? $3.5K per puppy from uncleared, untitled sires/dams that originate from eastern Europe & not even England?


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Thoroughly interesting and informative article. I particularly enjoyed the explanation of the genetics and actually understood most of it.

I don't know about the "split" in the UK but I personally am a* firm* believer in there being two distinct lines here in the states. I say that with fairly good authority because I seem to have one of each. One massively boned with much more of everything - head, coat, and one much less substantially built with energy, stamina, and retrieval instinct off the charts. Interestingly the "show" type is lighter in color than the "field" guy. I also agree, based on *my* experiences, that the field type seem to be able to compete physically with Labs on more of an even field.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

princesspuppy said:


> I breed English Creams, and this great to use for reference purposes. Thanks!


Welcome to GRF. :wavey:
I can only hope your website is updated so that it reflects more facts than the myths you are currently spouting. 
None of the dogs on your website have complete up to date clearances. Many are totally missing. Several dogs on your puppy page do not even show on your dog page. 
Donating a puppy to an auction?

Please frequent here often, ask lots of questions, go to the GRCA website and read their position on "English Creams", donating puppies for an auction (no matter how good the charity is) and clearances. PLEASE!!!


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I know this is an old thread and I haven't even read all the responses yet. 
I just wanted to say my observation is that it's almost "wrong" to want a white golden. I don't know how to explain it but it feels like it's looked down upon for some reason. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

SheetsSM said:


> Majestic Manor Goldens? $3.5K per puppy from uncleared, untitled sires/dams that originate from eastern Europe & not even England?


Given the fact that this article pretty much states that what you claim to breed does not even exist, $3500 does seem rather pricey.


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## Baker (May 24, 2013)

Shellbug said:


> I know this is an old thread and I haven't even read all the responses yet.
> I just wanted to say my observation is that it's almost "wrong" to want a white golden. I don't know how to explain it but it feels like it's looked down upon for some reason.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Honestly, I dont think anyone looks down on it, we all have our prefrences. I think it has more to do with some breeders advertising their dogs as rare white golden retreiver and charging 2500 and up for puppies whose parents have no clearances. Not to say that there aren't responsible breeders who breed this style of golden because there are. However, from my understanding most reputable breeders of this style do not advertise their dogs as anything there than what they are, which is a golden retriever. I think everyone here loves golden in all sizes, shapes, and colors.


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## princesspuppy (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks for the warm welcome. This is our stance on our English Goldens About - Majestic Manor Goldens


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

princesspuppy said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome. This is our stance on our English Goldens About - Majestic Manor Goldens


Good to see you taking a first step toward explaining away some of the myths. I am so glad that you took me up on my welcome and suggestion to hang around here. But there is still much to do. 
I know you mention both the GRCA and KC health surveys as "proof" that English Goldens are healthier and live longer than American Goldens. First off both of these were "surveys" not scientific studies of any kind. And there numbers of responses was very minimal in both cases. The KC report even states on page 1 "Warning: The results of this survey and particularly the breed-specific analyses should be interpreted with caution. The overall response rate was only 24% with breed-specific response rates from 4.5% to 64.7%. A total of 3282 forms were sent out and 538 were returned, representing 1717 live dogs. This breed had a 16.4% response rate (538/3282)..." (By the way your links to both these surveys is not working) So there is no data proving their is a difference in health between the two and if you ask anyone that actually knows and lives in England they will confirm, unfortunately, that Goldens there suffer from many of the same issues they do in the US. 
But how many of your "English Creme" Golden Retrievers are from England? From what I can see from the pedigrees on your website NONE. And I understand that all Goldens originally came from England but then again ALL Goldens originated in England including American. You have dogs with Polish, Romanian, French, Swedish and Hungarian ancestors. Do you have kind of data on the health of the dogs from these countries? And why do you refer to them as "English Creme" on your website still? Never mind I found my answer "but the name has already been coined and popularized which is why it is used on our website." So it is just a marketing tool and has no meaning at all. I get it. 
And of course there are still the issues of missing clearances and outdated eye clearances and the like on the dogs on you website. 
But again please ask questions and for input in addition to doing your own research about this INCREDIBLE breed.


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## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

My Wife had fallen in love with the dogs /puppies and color of them of Majestic Manor. When i looked at the website which is very nicely done the first thing i looked at were the certifications / clearance of the the dogs that were being breed, and there were none!!!! thats when i walked away from the site. very disappointing. +$4000 for a puppy is pretty expensive.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Because you posted on an old thread, I reread it and then went to this breeder's site- sad to say nothing has changed there over the last years. Still spouting the same inaccurate ideas. Another missed opportunity for this supposedly educated breeder to do the right thing yet clearances are still super spotty there and many,many dogs 'unknown on OFA' or 'known only as a parent'.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

That was a fun read. Looks like there may have been controversy in the pages of comments but I didn't go through and read them. I've got 5 human redheads under my roof and now an AKC totally average colored golden and a golden Mutt. I'm reminded by just about every old lady and some young in just about every shopping mall and grocery store about some of the genetic quirks that go along with coloring. It is what it is.


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## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

Quick question if anyone has info on Snitker Goldens? Thanks


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Engine#934 said:


> Quick question if anyone has info on Snitker Goldens? Thanks


You should post this as a new thread. It might get missed in this older thread.


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## Engine#934 (Mar 31, 2017)

Ok thank you very much ?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Never mind


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