# Drive vs Obedience



## Gwen_Dandridge

Bottom line for me, they need to be obedient. If I say "sit" they should sit. Drive should be there but not at the expense of learning basic rules. I also don't see these as mutually exclusive. 

What good is a working dog without obedience?


----------



## coaraujo

I might be partially biased because I'm a bit birdy myself . *But I think that its drive all the way. *I think you can be successful with either one. You'll have to use different methods because not every method is for every dog, but I actually have one of each. One VERY high drive birdy dog. And one who is definitely meant for the obedience ring (I'm just not all that great at training in that area). But my Bernie (my high drive boy) is A BREEZE to train in the field. All he wants are bumper bumper bumpers and birds birds birds. We had our first field training session this past weekend with out GRC (just got voted in !). He just got introduced to birds last weekend. Retrieved 3 ducks and 1 pheasant about 50 yards out and delivered to hand on Sat. He was so proud of himself. He could have gone 100x more. It was SO much fun. I really wish I had gotten it on video. Our trainer thinks he'll be ready for his first JH test in June. Oliver, Mr. Obedient, not so much. Too overstimulating of an environment for him. He couldn't handle all the guns, dogs, smells, birds, etc. Wouldn't even pick up the bumper. We tried doing holds with him and the bumper just fell out of his mouth. He literally went into shock or something. I don't think he had enough bird drive to overcome the shock of the new environment. Bernie was definitely just as stressed out by the environment because he was crying and pacing frantically at first. *But as soon as the birds came out he zoned it and it was game on. *

ETA: I have like zero experience and am just starting out, but this is my opinion based on my experiences so far!


----------



## tpd5

Coaraujo,

I am assuming you were at Southern Berkshire. If so I was there for my first day with SBGRC as well. Were you in the morning or afternoon session. I am involved in a couple other clubs in the area but was thoroughly impressed with how Saturday was run. 

As far as the drive vs obedience topic. I pick a dog with drive. You can teach obedience but you can't necessarily teach drive.


----------



## coaraujo

tpd5 said:


> Coaraujo,
> 
> I am assuming you were at Southern Berkshire. If so I was there for my first day with SBGRC as well. Were you in the morning or afternoon session. I am involved in a couple other clubs in the area but was thoroughly impressed with how Saturday was run.
> 
> As far as the drive vs obedience topic. I pick a dog with drive. *You can teach obedience but you can't necessarily teach drive. - Relating to the discussion, I think this is a good point. I think you can really only bring out whatever drive is already in the dog.*


:wave:
I was there in the afternoon session. Both my boys aren't puppies (Bernie 20 months, and Oliver 18 months), but we're just starting out so we're with the beginners. Were you there in the morning or afternoon? I heard the morning went really well. I can only imagine it had to be fairly well organized with 40 dogs running!

My name is Courtney btw


----------



## Loisiana

I think it's all about the balance between the two. The best dogs in any sport are the ones that have the desire, but are able to control themselves.

In field I don't think you need a very obedient dog to get a JH, but the higher you go up the levels the more control the dog will need. Flip has all the drive a dog would need for field plus some, but he displays very little control and therefore I probably won't push to go any farther with him (since field is not my main area of interest).

I have a friend right now with a dog that can't pass Master because he won't stop barking.


----------



## tpd5

coaraujo said:


> :wave:
> I was there in the afternoon session. Both my boys aren't puppies (Bernie 20 months, and Oliver 18 months), but we're just starting out so we're with the beginners. Were you there in the morning or afternoon? I heard the morning went really well. I can only imagine it had to be fairly well organized with 40 dogs running!
> 
> My name is Courtney btw


Hi Courtney. My name is Todd. I was in the morning group. My dog Mason is 18 months as well. We will be running Junior this year, I think we are going to start off at Hudson Highlands test in May.


----------



## hollyk

I have a balance of good drive and biddable. I will be looking for that balance in my next dog.


----------



## KeaColorado

I think the crucial link between drive and obedience is focus. There is nothing like watching a dog with drive and focus. Amazing.


----------



## K9-Design

Drive + biddability please and thank you
Those you can't put into a dog if he doesn't have them...
Obedience is what the handler trains the dog to do


----------



## gdgli

I love the drive and the more the better. I can always get the obedience. 

I truly believe that if you train smart you can get the obedience from the highly driven dog.


----------



## hotel4dogs

There was a good article recently, might have been Connie Cleveland (apologies if I'm wrong about the author) about this topic.
The gist of it is that you MUST have a combination of drive and trainability in a dog. She (he?) likened it to driving a high powered engine without a steering wheel or brakes otherwise. I liked that analogy. 
I agree you can train obedience and you can't train drive. But if you have a dog that's not very biddable, it's pretty hard to train obedience. I've worked with some stubborn, hard headed dogs and it's.not.fun.
Luckily for us, many of our goldens combine the two very nicely.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Well, I know that the next dog I get will have DRIVE! When I got my girls I didn't know anything about this stuff so I was looking for a family pet which they are both awesome for!
BUT.....my oldest has little drive but is VERY biddable. It is BORING to watch her work, I love her to death but paint dries faster and the biddability only goes so far imo. 

On the other hand I have a dog that has a lot of drive and her instinct and skills are very good but her biddability is low and working with her is like walking on eggshells because you just never know when she is going to get a wild hair and do her own thing. 

The next dog I'm looking for high drive with at least 50% biddability. I'm more concerned about harnessing their drive than getting them to be steady or whatnot because I believe I can do that over time with training but the drive, there just isn't anything to do about that. Its there or it isn't there.


----------



## EvanG

Alaska7133 said:


> So the question of the week, what is more important to you, drive or obedience? Is one more important? Do we train for one and hope for the other? How do we have an obedient dog but one with drive and excitement? What's the definition of obedience?


I define obedience as stable and predictable compliance with commands. All dog training fits under the general heading of "obedience".


Alaska7133 said:


> What's the definition of drive?


"Drive" is just another term for momentum; the force possessed by a body in motion. Also defined as the ability to maintain velocity against resistance. Not to be confused with "Style".


Alaska7133 said:


> Ever have a dog with high drive but you can't control?
> Ever have a dog that is very obedient but doesn't have the drive you want?
> 
> Just a conversation for the week.


My dogs consistently have style (a key component of which is speed), but also have significant momentum. Never had one I could not control. I have had dogs with less style than I have desired by their nature. Obedience is generally easier to obtain with a less driven dog, but I don't like pigs.

More often than not, dogs that lack style have had it taken from them through oppressive or unfair training..usually pressure related.

EvanG


----------



## Claudia M

EvanG said:


> ... Obedience is generally easier to obtain with a less driven dog, but I don't like pigs.
> 
> *More often than not, dogs that lack style have had it taken from them through oppressive or unfair training..usually pressure related.*
> 
> EvanG


I know you are the trainer and I am a complete novice but I must disagree with you here. I deleted by mistake part of what you wrote style (part of which is speed). 
Unless you are referring to style only for birds or I miss-understood, my dog has style, momentum and drive. And here is where the obedience comes in. She has it when she wants to - bumpers, squirrels, deer even tracking deer poop, fox pee and every smell on the ground. But on birds she looses the speed on her way back. She wasn't corrected on the bird, she wasn't oppressed on the bird. She wasn't even force fetched or e-collar conditioned. 
I could see lots of style and momentum while she chased a herd of deer after jumping the fence and after an admiring run she jumped on one deer's back. And here comes the obedience again. She did not listen to any commands shattering every obedience that I thought I put in her. Reason why I did purchase an e-collar and hope to e-collar condition her with a trainer. 
She did however surprise me just a couple minutes ago, I threw a bird for her and while she saw a squirrel in the back yard she decided to pick the bird instead. I took it as an amazing fluke as she was still looking for the squirrel while delivering at a heel. 
I would be afraid to throw a bird next to a bumper as I believe her first choice would be a bumper and she would deliver it back with wonderful style.


----------



## EvanG

Claudia,

I think I understand what you're saying here. I want to be clear about this. As I read the OP, we're discussing movement characteristics on retrieve, and some of these terms can be applied to different venues with different meanings or insinuations. I'm referring to the defining of dog movement while on retrieve. I will try to be clearer, but with that application specifically in mind.

Judges who are judging field trials or hunt tests in most of the most popular venues include style as criteria. A dog can move so poorly as to be penalized, even to the point of being eliminated from the stake. On the other end of the spectrum, high style can give a dog of relatively equal accuracy in the field an edge, even determining a win.

Momentum & drive are the same things, and clearly are judged when judges design marks, and even more on blinds. They use factors present quite often that will tend to break down or impeded progress toward a fall. Dogs with good style can still have poor momentum, and their style can ebb away to various degrees as a result. Remember, one of the definitions I gave for momentum was "The ability to maintain velocity against resistance". This is a situation I was referring to.

On return, poor style isn't nearly as important because dogs in those events are not judged on return, other than the requirements to return the bird to the handler and deliver to hand. Does this help?

EvanG


----------



## K9-Design

Claudia, you mention the "speed of return" thing OFTEN and I hope you understand that every dog runs back with the bird slower than he goes out to it. It's a given. It's also not judged whatsoever in a test or trial. In other words, unless the dog literally crawls back it is of no importance. You don't have to be so concerned with it.
In the context of field work, drive/style/momentum for other venues or chasing other animals is also of no importance or significance. 

I agree with Evan that dogs who lack the perceived style or momentum have had it taken out of them with oppressive or unfair training. I also believe lack of style can be created by permissive training (i.e. no force training), and of course lack of style can be endogenous, if the dog just doesn't have "it" genetically.


----------



## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> Claudia, you mention the "speed of return" thing OFTEN and I hope you understand that every dog runs back with the bird slower than he goes out to it. It's a given. It's also not judged whatsoever in a test or trial. In other words, unless the dog literally crawls back it is of no importance. You don't have to be so concerned with it.
> In the context of field work, drive/style/momentum for other venues or chasing other animals is also of no importance or significance.
> 
> I agree with Evan that dogs who lack the perceived style or momentum have had it taken out of them with oppressive or unfair training. I also believe lack of style can be created by permissive training (i.e. no force training), and of course lack of style can be endogenous, if the dog just doesn't have "it" genetically.


If you look at Rose's videos she has the same speed (maybe slightly, slightly slower) on the return with the bumper. I view that as part of the drive and will to go for the next one.


----------



## hollyk

Winter is a speed out trot back kind of girl with ducks, she too has faster returns with bumpers. I don't worry about it and it hasn't effected whether we pass tests or not.


----------



## coaraujo

K9-Design said:


> Claudia, you mention the "speed of return" thing OFTEN and I hope you understand that every dog runs back with the bird slower than he goes out to it. It's a given. It's also not judged whatsoever in a test or trial. In other words, unless the dog literally crawls back it is of no importance. You don't have to be so concerned with it.


That's really good to know. Bernie always trots/canters back with the bird, I thought this was something we had to fix since it wasn't speedy. Always learn so much from all of you  Thanks Alaska for this discussion and to everyone for their posts.


----------



## EvanG

hollyk said:


> Winter is a speed out trot back kind of girl with ducks, she too has faster returns with bumpers. I don't worry about it and it hasn't effected whether we pass tests or not.


Holly,

Lots of dogs are like that. I rarely treat it as anything too important. Frankly, I've observed over the years that it's fairly typical of many Goldens to 'trot back', but fly out like a rocket. As long as the return isn't too slow you probably won't hear from a judge about it. 

The late Jim Kappes remarked that each dog has his or her own style. Sometimes that produces some line manner issues that can be a problem. But he spoke of some that he was careful not to 'over-fix' because by allowing them more of their own style their marking was better than when they were too screwed down.

EvanG


----------



## coaraujo

EvanG said:


> Holly,
> 
> Lots of dogs are like that. I rarely treat it as anything too important. Frankly, I've observed over the years that it's fairly typical of many Goldens to 'trot back', but fly out like a rocket. As long as the return isn't too slow you probably won't hear from a judge about it.
> 
> The late Jim Kappes remarked that each dog has his or her own style. Sometimes that produces some line manner issues that can be a problem. *But he spoke of some that he was careful not to 'over-fix' because by allowing them more of their own style their marking was better than when they were too screwed down.*
> 
> EvanG


So the delay in them coming back doesn't necessarily affect their memory of where the other birds have fallen? Like the time difference between a dog rushing back and a dog trotting back doesn't really make a difference in the dog remembering his marks, whatever comes more natural to the dog will actually be best for the dog remembering his marks? I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. That makes more sense. At first I was thinking you'd want the dog to come back quicker so as to not forget where the other birds had fallen, but if the dog is focused on coming back quicker instead of remembering where the birds are...its going to have a harder time finding the birds.

ETA: So really on the return you should train for a straight/direct return, not necessarily speedy. Is there anything else?


----------



## EvanG

coaraujo said:


> So the delay in them coming back doesn't necessarily affect their memory of where the other birds have fallen? Like the time difference between a dog rushing back and a dog trotting back doesn't really make a difference in the dog remembering his marks, whatever comes more natural to the dog will actually be best for the dog remembering his marks? I want to make sure I'm understanding correctly. That makes more sense. At first I was thinking you'd want the dog to come back quicker so as to not forget where the other birds had fallen, but if the dog is focused on coming back quicker instead of remembering where the birds are...its going to have a harder time finding the birds.
> 
> ETA: So really on the return you should train for a straight/direct return, not necessarily speedy. Is there anything else?


The result in memory performance will be dog to dog. What I'm saying is that a judge will rarely penalize for a slow return. But I've seen dogs with ugly/slow returns that have strong memory. My preference is speedy both ways. But make no mistake; just because a dog comes back fast is no guarantee he has a good memory.

EvanG


----------



## coaraujo

EvanG said:


> The result in memory performance will be dog to dog. What I'm saying is that a judge will rarely penalize for a slow return. But I've seen dogs with ugly/slow returns that have strong memory. My preference is speedy both ways. But make no mistake; just because a dog comes back fast is no guarantee he has a good memory.
> 
> EvanG


Thanks for the clarification


----------



## Claudia M

EvanG said:


> Holly,
> 
> Lots of dogs are like that. I rarely treat it as anything too important. Frankly, *I've observed over the years that it's fairly typical of many Goldens to 'trot back', but fly out like a rocket.* As long as the return isn't too slow you probably won't hear from a judge about it.
> 
> The late Jim Kappes remarked that each dog has his or her own style. Sometimes that produces some line manner issues that can be a problem. But he spoke of some that he was careful not to 'over-fix' because by allowing them more of their own style their marking was better than when they were too screwed down.
> 
> EvanG


I have noticed that with the young and older dogs in a hunt test. There was this Fireside Golden at the test this past weekend. She never changed pace - forth and back. I just loved watching her. That's is what I like to see in drive/style/momentum - or whatever you call it. That girl had it all, looks (darker golden) structure and style.


----------



## Claudia M

If you know your dog has drive (both to and from) with bumpers how would you train to keep that with birds? 

Have a second bird to throw as soon and they return with the first one?


----------



## Alaska7133

You could wave that second bumper around and jump up and down. That sometimes gets the dog in a hurry to come back. You probably could do that with a bird too.


----------



## K9-Design

Claudia M said:


> If you know your dog has drive (both to and from) with bumpers how would you train to keep that with birds?
> 
> Have a second bird to throw as soon and they return with the first one?



I would quit training so much with bumpers and only use birds. 
To be honest if you're paying so much attention to their speed of return, a slower speed with birds could indicate they actually prefer birds, as they are reluctant to return it and give it up.

While I before said not to put so much emphasis on speed of return, I will say I require or rather expect my dogs to run (not trot) when returning. With MY dogs I know they are capable of running back so any less is goofing off. But I wouldn't be terribly concerned with it especially in an inexperienced dog.


----------



## EvanG

K9-Design said:


> I would quit training so much with bumpers and only use birds.
> To be honest if you're paying so much attention to their speed of return, a slower speed with birds could indicate they actually prefer birds, as they are reluctant to return it and give it up.
> 
> While I before said not to put so much emphasis on speed of return, I will say I require or rather expect my dogs to run (not trot) when returning. With MY dogs I know they are capable of running back so any less is goofing off. But I wouldn't be terribly concerned with it especially in an inexperienced dog.


Right on! Mark with real birds whenever possible, except in water. Bumpers will hold up better for obvious reasons. But even then, if you have birds you can spare, mark with feathers! It's what they live for.

EvanG


----------



## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> I would quit training so much with bumpers and only use birds.
> *To be honest if you're paying so much attention to their speed of return, a slower speed with birds could indicate they actually prefer birds, as they are reluctant to return it and give it up.*
> 
> While I before said not to put so much emphasis on speed of return, I will say I require or rather expect my dogs to run (not trot) when returning. With MY dogs I know they are capable of running back so any less is goofing off. But I wouldn't be terribly concerned with it especially in an inexperienced dog.


Not necessarily true. 

It can be an indication that they do not prefer that job of picking up a dead bird in their mouth(lack of enthusiasm); 

it can be an indication that they rather eat it. 

Either way I believe the drive of coming back should be there no matter what they like. 

As a matter of fact a lady had two goldens with her and when I asked her what they are running in she stated that one of the goldens was there just for the trip as he has developed a taste for eating the birds.


----------



## FTGoldens

Good discussion topic!
To answer the original poster, drive/desire/style ... call it what you will, but we all understand the idea ... is absolutely essential, at least to make it to the highest levels of competition. The dogs must want to retrieve more than just about anything in the world (I once had a male that was about to mount in order to breed when he saw a pheasant break out of a crate ... he fetched the bird, then got back to "business"). You know, they must have that desire to be able to give us that cast off a point at 300 yards into a 20 mph breeze when the water temp is 40 degrees. They have to have a lot of stuff give you a cast like that, but at the top of the Need-To-Have list is desire. And yes, they have to be obedient to do it as well, but obedience is a lot easier to obtain than desire. As has been posted earlier, IN MOST CASES, we can input the necessary amount of obedience, but we cannot input the desire.
I run field trials with my dogs, that's it. I do not, repeat, I do not focus on obedience. I demand only enough obedience to cause my dogs to get from the holding blind to the line (notice that I didn't say heel to the line), stay close enough to the line that the judges don't consider them to be breaking when the birds start going down (notice that I didn't say sit), wait until I say their name before taking off, and come back to me with a bird in their mouth. 
And yes, my dogs have broken. In fact, I've had two different ones break in the last series of Amateur stakes ... that's heartbreaking. However, note that they got to those last series. Could they have done better if they had more obedience ... probably not. 
I can't afford a Ferrari, so these fast "dump the clutch and squeal the tires" Goldens of mine will have to do ... at least for now ... I'm saving up for that Ferrari  .
FTGoldens


----------



## Vhuynh2

Molly runs back with nice birds. Frozen or ugly ones, not so much. She is faster with small bumpers and slower with big bumpers and dokkens.

Also, it helps to whistle like you mean it. People have been telling me I don't whistle loud enough. Just last week I figured out that Molly comes back faster when I whistle LOUD. Still not as fast as when she has a nice bird, though.


----------



## Alaska7133

Before my Lucy was force fetched, she wouldn't come back very fast with her birds. You could see her little brain working overtime to figure out where she could go with that bird and eat it. She loves any kind of bird in any condition, alive dead or 1/2 alive. It could be rotten and covered with maggots, that girl loves birds. On returns she would kind of zig zag around looking for a spot to go with her prize. She doesn't do that anymore, but I'm sure she still thinks about eating them.

Last weekend at training I watched a 2 yr old show boy going crazy on retrieves. He couldn't get enough of birds. He was jumping and going crazy to get his owners to turn him loose and let him get that bird. He hasn't had a lot of obedience. He doesn't heel and he doesn't always sit right away. But he retrieves and he loves it. He was the most enthusiastic dog I think that day. Here's a show dog with solid Rush Hill breeding and all he wants is birds. I had so much fun watching him. I think that's what I want, a dog that LOVES to retrieve anything and will do just about anything to get that bird. I think that's the most important thing. Here's his sister's pedigree: Pedigree: Koria's One Twentieth Of A Dahler At Too Golden

My Reilly is so happy to get a bird. He wags his tail all the way to the bird and wags it all the way back. He has a big smile. He doesn't have a lot of obedience. He'll do a swing finish at my side, but he has a hard time giving up the bird, so I wait to take it until the next mark. He's not steady. He's great on doubles. But he will tend to eat a bird a bit before he picks it up. Which is rather annoying, but if you yell at him, he'll stop and bring it to you. He's had no FF. He just smiles all the way. He chatters and shakes and pops his jaws when he goes to the line. That's drive to me.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Exactly what our trainer says....it tends to indicate bird possessiveness, not a lack of drive or desire. They know you are going to take THEIR bird when they get back. You can see it in their eyes, the way they are eyeing you on their way back. 
When they are slow both going out and coming back, it tends to indicate lack of desire or drive.
And no, Tito doesn't want to eat the bird. I can drive all the way home with him in the back, no crate, with dead birds tossed in with him and he will not even nibble them.
He just likes birds. He is perfectly content to just sit and hold one endlessly in his mouth.



K9-Design said:


> To be honest if you're paying so much attention to their speed of return, a slower speed with birds could indicate they actually prefer birds, as they are reluctant to return it and give it up.
> 
> .


----------



## Vhuynh2

hotel4dogs said:


> Exactly what our trainer says....it tends to indicate bird possessiveness, not a lack of drive or desire. They know you are going to take THEIR bird when they get back. You can see it in their eyes, the way they are eyeing you on their way back.
> When they are slow both going out and coming back, it tends to indicate lack of desire or drive.
> And no, Tito doesn't want to eat the bird. I can drive all the way home with him in the back, no crate, with dead birds tossed in with him and he will not even nibble them.
> He just likes birds. He is perfectly content to just sit and hold one endlessly in his mouth.



So Molly might actually like the frozen birds better than the nice ones?

With Molly I think her structure may also play a part. Her neck isn't very long and heavier things might be harder for her to carry.


----------



## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> Exactly what our trainer says....it tends to indicate bird possessiveness, not a lack of drive or desire. They know you are going to take THEIR bird when they get back. You can see it in their eyes, the way they are eyeing you on their way back.
> When they are slow both going out and coming back, it tends to indicate lack of desire or drive.
> And no, Tito doesn't want to eat the bird. I can drive all the way home with him in the back, no crate, with dead birds tossed in with him and he will not even nibble them.
> He just likes birds. He is perfectly content to just sit and hold one endlessly in his mouth.


Let's not forget that each dog IS different. 

And yes, if I allow my girls to play with the bumper they would also sit and try to chew on the bumper as well, tease each other with the "cool toy" etc. And they know that I will take the bumper away just as much as I would take the duck away. When they see the bumper one jumps on me with excitement and the other barks and turns around like crazy. It is not the same with a bird. At least in my current dogs. 

Belle on the other hand was slower both going in and coming back. She was precise, marked well and very methodical. One could say she did not have drive but beat dogs who would go to look and hunt for the darn bird everywhere and came back "empty-mouthed". 

The only time Rose did not have the drive to go was recently when she got sick, turned out she had a fever and swollen lymph nodes - assumed to be a beginning of an infection since her blood work came back normal. Luckily that lack of drive made me have her checked out and put on anti-inflammatory and antibiotics right away.

So IMHO I prefer a dog that is consistent both going and coming. That shows desire to please and knowledge that she is send on a job by the handler and not what they prefer to do. And this is where both the desire to please and the obedience come in.


----------



## hotel4dogs

While I understand what you're saying, I think it's also a matter of personal preference and what you are looking for in the dog.
My own personal preference is the dog who heads out at 110% effort and speed, even if the dog canters (see below) or trots back in. That indicates to me an innate love of the bird, not a taught skill or doing it because he knows he has to. At that point, there is nothing in the world more important to that dog than the bird. Trainability shows in what happens before they are sent, or after they get the bird, or if they need to be directed to the bird with some handling. It includes things like returning promptly to the handler's side, sitting patiently holding the bird waiting for the handler to take it, and so on. But just my own personal preference, especially a dog who is going to be bred should show that the desire to get the bird is so strong that they will head out at maximum effort. 
Once they get the bird, they don't need to expend as much effort. A 200 yard full tilt run on rough terrain is tiring. So if they come back at less than 100% speed I'm okay with that. Add in some bird possessiveness, and you're even more likely to get a return that's not a full gallop. 
But again, that's just what I personally am looking for in a dog. When I watch various dogs run in training or tests, the ones who give maximum effort and then some on the way out are the ones that I look at and say, "wow, that dog is a pleasure to watch". 
Just as a side note, a canter is the most efficient gait for a dog in the field, and a trot is also very efficient for field work.
"....The canter is a preferred gait for cruising or loping easily across a field because it is not tiring and it provides good support. It is often slower than a trot but it can be easily shifted into the faster transverse gallop. Because of the even distribution of support (tripod involving hindlimb followed by tripod involving forelimb), the canter is suited for rough ground or where footing is uncertain...." 
"...The trot is a common gait in all domestic quadrupeds. It is well-suited for rough, irregular ground and for traveling long distances at a fair rate of speed. Work is spread evenly over all four limbs, and diagonal support makes it easy to maintain equilibrium. The trot is the natural foraging gait of most wild animals...."

taken from Gaits , a very good website.






Claudia M said:


> Let's not forget that each dog IS different.
> 
> And yes, if I allow my girls to play with the bumper they would also sit and try to chew on the bumper as well, tease each other with the "cool toy" etc. And they know that I will take the bumper away just as much as I would take the duck away. When they see the bumper one jumps on me with excitement and the other barks and turns around like crazy. It is not the same with a bird. At least in my current dogs.
> 
> Belle on the other hand was slower both going in and coming back. She was precise, marked well and very methodical. One could say she did not have drive but beat dogs who would go to look and hunt for the darn bird everywhere and came back "empty-mouthed".
> 
> The only time Rose did not have the drive to go was recently when she got sick, turned out she had a fever and swollen lymph nodes - assumed to be a beginning of an infection since her blood work came back normal. Luckily that lack of drive made me have her checked out and put on anti-inflammatory and antibiotics right away.
> 
> So IMHO I prefer a dog that is consistent both going and coming. That shows desire to please and knowledge that she is send on a job by the handler and not what they prefer to do. And this is where both the desire to please and the obedience come in.


----------



## Claudia M

So are we saying that the labs are not as bird possessive as the goldens? They do not tire as quickly as the goldens and therefore their speed of return is pretty much the same as the speed of going when doing a job?
I guess there are not as many goldens that are e-colllar conditioned as the labs. Is't a speedy return part of the e-collar conditioning? A speedy return? When you give the come/whistle they come back to you pronto.


----------



## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> taken from Gaits , a very good website.


I do like that website. I also like this one.
HOW STRUCTURE AFFECTS MOVEMENT


----------



## hollyk

Claudia M said:


> So are we saying that the labs are not as bird possessive as the goldens? They do not tire as quickly as the goldens and therefore their speed of return is pretty much the same as the speed of going when doing a job?
> I guess there are not as many goldens that are e-colllar conditioned as the labs. Is't a speedy return part of the e-collar conditioning? A speedy return? When you give the come/whistle they come back to you pronto.


Pretty big leap there. 
One of the fastest dogs I know is a Lab from a FC X MH breeding. She runs marks, blinds, everything like her tail is on fire. My training partner has to be very ready when she steps to the line with her. 
I think choices were made in breeding that wired her a bit differently then my no field titles in 5 generations girl. 

I personally have never corrected for her slower return. The trot/canter doesn't bother me enough.


----------



## hotel4dogs

While I hate to make a breed generalization, many of the labs that I see work are more retrieve driven and less bird possessive. To them (a lot of the ones I see, maybe not the breed overall), the whole thing is the retrieve, whereas to many of the goldens I've seen, the whole thing is the bird. Which would make sense when you consider their original purposes. So for the labs, the next retrieve is very important, whereas to the golden, they've already got what is the most important thing (the bird itself). Like Holly said, a lot of the labs around here are on afterburners ALL the time. But they want to get back immediately so they can get another retrieve, regardless of whether it's a bird, bumper, tennis ball, old sock, rock....
I guess it depends on your definition of a speedy return. To me, if the dog is coming back at a canter or brisk trot, heading straight back without dallying, I consider that a fast return not requiring a collar correction. But if the dog seems to stray from the task (looking around for frogs in the water, stopping to pee on a bush, for example), then it would require a correction. When I give a whistle, it means come in now. But it doesn't necessarily mean break all land speed records to get here. When a bird goes down, and the dog gets sent, I want to see land speed records broken. Especially in a hunting situation, where the bird may be crippled, or a runner, the dog needs to get there immediately. Coming back in with the bird flapping in his face, pecking at his cheek, I don't care if he's coming back a bit slower. 



Claudia M said:


> So are we saying that the labs are not as bird possessive as the goldens? They do not tire as quickly as the goldens and therefore their speed of return is pretty much the same as the speed of going when doing a job?
> I guess there are not as many goldens that are e-colllar conditioned as the labs. Is't a speedy return part of the e-collar conditioning? A speedy return? When you give the come/whistle they come back to you pronto.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Labs versus Goldens (courtesy of my trainer):

Lab sitting at the line next to handler: "gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird..."
Golden sitting at the line next to handler: "They're going to shoot a bird. The square root of the distance from the gunner to the bird plus the square root of the distance from me to the gunner equals the square root of the most efficient route to the bird once it goes down, allowing for a slight curve in order to stay in the shade most of the way there..."

Labs versus goldens coming back (courtesy of me):

Lab: "take your silly dead bird, throw something else throw something else throw something else throw something else PLEASE throw something else..."
Golden: "I went and got this bird, this is MY bird. I know I have to bring it back, but I know you're going to take it...."


----------



## EvanG

Claudia M said:


> So are we saying that the labs are not as bird possessive as the goldens? They do not tire as quickly as the goldens and therefore their speed of return is pretty much the same as the speed of going when doing a job?
> I guess there are not as many goldens that are e-colllar conditioned as the labs. Is't a speedy return part of the e-collar conditioning? A speedy return? When you give the come/whistle they come back to you pronto.


I agree with Holly. We're connecting dots in this statement that don't fit. Style is a dog to dog issue, not a breed issue. There are Goldens that can run circles around many Labs, and vice versa. That is certainly not an e-collar issue for two important reasons.

1. You can't force style. If a dog is sped up by the use of an e-collar it was avoidance, not style, and will not tend to last.

2. E-collar conditioning is to ensure compliance, not to speed dogs up.

Different dog = different pace by its nature. A popular (and correct) statement often heard among dog trainers is, "You can take it out of them, but you can't put it in them." While that generally applies to a given dog's desire to retrieve, it certainly applies to any dog's overall style or pace.

EvanG


----------



## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> While I hate to make a breed generalization, many of the labs that I see work are more retrieve driven and less bird possessive. To them (a lot of the ones I see, maybe not the breed overall), the whole thing is the retrieve, whereas to many of the goldens I've seen, the whole thing is the bird. Which would make sense when you consider their original purposes. So for the labs, the next retrieve is very important, whereas to the golden, they've already got what is the most important thing (the bird itself). Like Holly said, a lot of the labs around here are on afterburners ALL the time. But they want to get back immediately so they can get another retrieve, regardless of whether it's a bird, bumper, tennis ball, old sock, rock....
> I guess it depends on your definition of a speedy return. To me, if the dog is coming back at a canter or brisk trot, heading straight back without dallying, I consider that a fast return not requiring a collar correction. But if the dog seems to stray from the task (looking around for frogs in the water, stopping to pee on a bush, for example), then it would require a correction. When I give a whistle, it means come in now. But it doesn't necessarily mean break all land speed records to get here. When a bird goes down, and the dog gets sent, I want to see land speed records broken. Especially in a hunting situation, where the bird may be crippled, or a runner, the dog needs to get there immediately. Coming back in with the bird flapping in his face, pecking at his cheek, I don't care if he's coming back a bit slower.


I agree, although Winter trot/canters back she is must come straight back. No dropping one bird, no visiting the gallery.....


----------



## hollyk

hotel4dogs said:


> Labs versus Goldens (courtesy of my trainer):
> 
> Lab sitting at the line next to handler: "gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird..."
> Golden sitting at the line next to handler: "They're going to shoot a bird. The square root of the distance from the gunner to the bird plus the square root of the distance from me to the gunner equals the square root of the most efficient route to the bird once it goes down, allowing for a slight curve in order to stay in the shade most of the way there..."
> 
> Labs versus goldens coming back (courtesy of me):
> 
> Lab: "take your silly dead bird, throw something else throw something else throw something else throw something else PLEASE throw something else..."
> Golden: "I went and got this bird, this is MY bird. I know I have to bring it back, but I know you're going to take it...."


Too funny.

That's my friends Lab.
"gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird gotta get the bird..."


----------



## Alaska7133

I heard someone say that goldens are "show offs" and want to show everyone their bird. Which is why they like to visit the gallery and the other gunners on the way back. Another person I heard say, the dog has terrible re-call. In either case, it makes me want to melt down when Lucy visits the gunners with her bird. Some days she's great, some days she too social. So is it socializing or is it bad re-call? I can say it's hard too get too mad at pretty dogs.


----------



## hollyk

For Lucy socializing opportunity, for you opportunity to correct bad re-call.


----------



## Claudia M

I am not big in corrections (which are necessary) as much as in encouragement. 
Darcy has that both go and come (except when she comes she does not necessarily come back to the handler :doh. She is proud of her duck and wants to show it to everyone!
I have been practicing with a duck every morning now on just short hand thrown retrieves. Slowly increasing both the go to as well as the come back distance. So far that seems to work as far as the enthusiasm coming back. 

Each time it is followed by their preferred frisbee game. Which in a way it is play and in another it is teach. Delivery to heel/hand(which Darcy desperately needs), distance sits and downs, walk in a heel if you want me to throw the frisbee.

I have seen how Rose runs freely all over the hard terrain at the cabin. She doesn't hike, she runs in the front, to the side and coming back the entire time. Darcy not so much unless she is given a job. Her muscles have not been formed/conditioned from young.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Someone I have trained with always used to say, when Tito is coming back in proud as can be with his bird, "Look at me! I'm Tito! I'm on the catwalk!"
Yep, so true!


----------



## Vhuynh2

What Molly does a lot is start off coming back at a run and then slow down to a trot about 25 yards away from me. I haven't corrected her since she's not doing anything wrong. I'm glad to read here that a slow return is not indicative of drive/desire if the dog goes out full speed. That was what I was sort of worried about. And when you hear things like "watch my dog run, not jog" it makes you feel bad. It wasn't directed at me and I know who he was referring to (dog was slow both going out and coming back), but I still couldn't help but take it personally.


----------



## K9-Design

Alaska7133 said:


> I heard someone say that goldens are "show offs" and want to show everyone their bird. Which is why they like to visit the gallery and the other gunners on the way back. Another person I heard say, the dog has terrible re-call. In either case, it makes me want to melt down when Lucy visits the gunners with her bird. Some days she's great, some days she too social. So is it socializing or is it bad re-call? I can say it's hard too get too mad at pretty dogs.



Here-nick-here it's just training

All this talk of speed of return is making me insane.


----------



## Alaska7133

K9-Design said:


> Here-nick-here it's just training
> 
> All this talk of speed of return is making me insane.


I was told to not nick when they have a bird in their mouth so they don't have a negative association with retrieving. Not sure if they meant in the early stages of retriever training only. So I've been hesitant to nick.


----------



## Claudia M

I would never nick on a return with a bird in the mouth unless they go to the next bush and stop for "lunch".


----------



## hollyk

I don't care if bird is in mouth, your playing chase at the end of a training day or something smells good. HERE means HERE, my voice or whistle. 
Nick, here, nick. This is also true for Sit.


----------



## TrailDogs

Alaska7133 said:


> I was told to not nick when they have a bird in their mouth so they don't have a negative association with retrieving. Not sure if they meant in the early stages of retriever training only. So I've been hesitant to nick.


If she is collar conditioned to 'here', I would not hesitate to correct her for this behavior. It is a breakdown of the recall, which is part of the retrieve. If she drops the bird then she loses the reward of having the bird. She has to come straight back. 
A trained dog will learn the sequence of behaviors and you should not even need a whistle for the return. She will eventually learn to go out, pick up the bird, and immediately come back with no additional commands. It is all part of a trained retrieve. 

Showboating with the bird is one of those behaviors I would discourage early on. It is not unusual with Goldens, mine did it as a young dog. If you are uncomfortable with the collar for this behavior then you need to go out into the field and get her, run her with a long line so you can grab the line and bring her right back to you.


----------



## K9-Design

Right. A well collar conditioned dog will absolutely understand a collar correction even with a bird in his mouth. You are right -- probably not the best thing to do with an inexperienced dog but it absolutely is a viable option in many circumstances. 
If you have taken your dog through pile work with collar corrections my guess is they've received a correction with a bumper in their mouth.


----------



## hotel4dogs

This is splitting hairs, but I would do 
here- nick - here
not 
nick- here - nick
if there's a bird in the mouth. I think it's then apparent that the nick is for the violation of the here command.
JMO


----------



## hotel4dogs

If there was a bird present anywhere, and I threw a frisbee, Tito would tell me to go pick up the dam frisbee myself, hand over the bird...:doh:



Claudia M said:


> I am not big in corrections (which are necessary) as much as in encouragement.
> Darcy has that both go and come (except when she comes she does not necessarily come back to the handler :doh. She is proud of her duck and wants to show it to everyone!
> I have been practicing with a duck every morning now on just short hand thrown retrieves. Slowly increasing both the go to as well as the come back distance. So far that seems to work as far as the enthusiasm coming back.
> 
> Each time it is followed by their preferred frisbee game. Which in a way it is play and in another it is teach. Delivery to heel/hand(which Darcy desperately needs), distance sits and downs, walk in a heel if you want me to throw the frisbee.
> 
> I have seen how Rose runs freely all over the hard terrain at the cabin. She doesn't hike, she runs in the front, to the side and coming back the entire time. Darcy not so much unless she is given a job. Her muscles have not been formed/conditioned from young.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Just thinking out loud here...do you suppose it's especially common in Goldens who have had people play with them with toys? We do that with all my Goldens, whenever we come in they greet us with a toy, and we make a big fuss ("what do you HAVE? Is that your puppy? Is that a shoe? show me what you have!!" and so on) and it's a happy play time. 
I've never had a problem with Tito taking the bird to someone else, but he is certainly very proud of himself when he has it!



TrailDogs said:


> Showboating with the bird is one of those behaviors I would discourage early on. It is not unusual with Goldens, mine did it as a young dog. If you are uncomfortable with the collar for this behavior then you need to go out into the field and get her, run her with a long line so you can grab the line and bring her right back to you.


----------



## TrailDogs

hotel4dogs said:


> Just thinking out loud here...do you suppose it's especially common in Goldens who have had people play with them with toys? We do that with all my Goldens, whenever we come in they greet us with a toy, and we make a big fuss ("what do you HAVE? Is that your puppy? Is that a shoe? show me what you have!!" and so on) and it's a happy play time.
> I've never had a problem with Tito taking the bird to someone else, but he is certainly very proud of himself when he has it!


I don't know, goldens are very social. Mine did it with puppy retrieves, before any collar training. She wanted to go to every person out there and visit. At that point I would just go get her since she was a pup. It disappeared once she had more training. 
I do see it more often in goldens than labs. I think they are very pleased with themselves and the bird and would like everyone to know about it.


----------



## goldlover68

Sorry, have been out of town working my dogs....late getting on this post.

All my Golden's are hunt test dogs and field hunters. When I am looking for a puppy one of the most important things I look for are field lines with titled dogs with high drive. I want to see the parents run if possible. Two of my current three dogs have 'high drive' as I too agree you cannot train in drive, although you can train it out of a dog (God forbid), by poor training practices. 

In the field, obedience is the foundation for a good dog, for safety first. When hunting or running in the field, dangers can occur (deer running, skunks, etc.). You have to control the dog at all times, to be safe. 

So you have to have both, but obedience is trained and any dog can be trained to be obedient. Some harder than others.....but it is possible


----------



## Vhuynh2

hotel4dogs said:


> If there was a bird present anywhere, and I threw a frisbee, Tito would tell me to go pick up the dam frisbee myself, hand over the bird...:doh:



Someone threw Molly a fun bumper when there were ducks laying around the ground at the bucket. Molly watched that bumper fall and thought screw that, and ran the opposite direction to the bucket and picked up a bird for her instead. I did go make her fetch that bumper.


----------



## Loisiana

If I were looking for my next dog and someone said that one was very biddable and would try his best to please you, but didn't have much innate drive and desire for work, I would say "no thanks, been there, done that."

If someone told me they had a dog burning with drive and desire, but keeping it under control would be a major challenge, I'd say "no thanks, been there, done that."

I'd hold off for the dog that was more balanced.


----------



## FTGoldens

EvanG said:


> Style is a dog to dog issue, not a breed issue.
> 
> There are Goldens that can run circles around many Labs, and vice versa.
> 
> That is certainly not an e-collar issue for two important reasons.
> 1. You can't force style. If a dog is sped up by the use of an e-collar it was avoidance, not style, and will not tend to last.
> 2. E-collar conditioning is to ensure compliance, not to speed dogs up.
> 
> A popular (and correct) statement often heard among dog trainers is, "You can take it out of them, but you can't put it in them."
> 
> EvanG


I totally agree with everything stated therein!
It's a misconception (and a misuse of the collar) that you can speed up a dog's return with a stimulation, except on a very, very temporary basis.

FTGoldens


----------



## Claudia M

hotel4dogs said:


> If there was a bird present anywhere, and I threw a frisbee, Tito would tell me to go pick up the dam frisbee myself, hand over the bird...:doh:


Bird always gets put away. Just like after training, equipment is put away and then it is play reward time. I would certainly not play with a duck. 
They often go to check the kennel to see if the duck is still there though.


----------



## TrailDogs

Loisiana said:


> If I were looking for my next dog and someone said that one was very biddable and would try his best to please you, but didn't have much innate drive and desire for work, I would say "no thanks, been there, done that."
> 
> If someone told me they had a dog burning with drive and desire, but keeping it under control would be a major challenge, I'd say "no thanks, been there, done that."
> 
> I'd hold off for the dog that was more balanced.


I agree with this 100%. You can have drive, focus, and trainability in the same dog and that is what I look for. 
A high drive dog that lacks focus and/or is not a team player is no fun to work with.


----------



## Claudia M

EvanG said:


> I agree with Holly. We're connecting dots in this statement that don't fit. Style is a dog to dog issue, not a breed issue. There are Goldens that can run circles around many Labs, and vice versa. That is certainly not an e-collar issue for two important reasons.
> 
> 1. You can't force style. If a dog is sped up by the use of an e-collar it was avoidance, not style, and will not tend to last.
> 
> 2. E-collar conditioning is to ensure compliance, not to speed dogs up.
> 
> Different dog = different pace by its nature. A popular (and correct) statement often heard among dog trainers is, "You can take it out of them, but you can't put it in them." While that generally applies to a given dog's desire to retrieve, it certainly applies to any dog's overall style or pace.
> 
> EvanG


I am not sure if it was on your video or Mike Lardy's where a here command was repeated for better speed on the e-collar conditioning.


----------



## goldlover68

If you run in hunt tests or field trials, you need a dog with lots of drive. I have yet to see a high dog drive, that cannot be trained! I am sure they exist, but I have not seen one. I have seen tons of dogs running with high drive, that have handlers/trainers that have no clue on how to train them. That is more common than not!


----------



## hollyk

Loisiana said:


> If I were looking for my next dog and someone said that one was very biddable and would try his best to please you, but didn't have much innate drive and desire for work, I would say "no thanks, been there, done that."
> 
> If someone told me they had a dog burning with drive and desire, but keeping it under control would be a major challenge, I'd say "no thanks, been there, done that."
> 
> I'd hold off for the dog that was more balanced.


You can call me Goldilocks, but I'm with Jodie, I want one that is _just right_. :yes:


----------



## Alaska7133

Barb,
Your guy Tito had some pretty high obedience titles before he had a bird. How high was his title, like CDX or UD or higher? How did the obedience work play a part in this topic?


----------



## Maxs Mom

Forgive me for answering for Barb and she can correct me. She held back on field training until Tito got his CH. He is prone to cold tail and didn't want the risk while doing conformation. She started him in obedience. Introduced him to field late in is CH journey. When I went to see Tito at shows here (I went to two) he got majors and UDX legs at the same trials. Just a note for those who say you can't do obedience and conformation.  He finished his CH first, then she dove into field work. Tito was all for it. He had no issues coming from obedience and breed. He truly is a versatile golden retriever. 

For me drive is very important and so is bidability. You can have dogs with so much drive they can't use their brain. I haven't seen it in a golden but I have in many a lab. I do stay away from some breeders whose dogs I worry,would be too much. I want a dog to live in my house not a kennel or trainers truck. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alaska7133

Thanks Maxs Mom,
So Tito had his UDX then went on to his SH. I would love to hear what Barb has to say about that transition. If I remember right Tito went off and ate his first bird.

I can't imagine how hard it is (and time consuming) to get a UDX. For anyone out there wondering, here's a link to the AKC rule book on obedience competition. https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RO2999.pdf


----------



## Loisiana

I don't think competition obedience training means squat to a dog when they are in the field. And I say that as someone whose life is dedicated to training for competition obedience.

One of the worst behaved dogs I've ever seen at a test had been in the top 25 all breed in the nation in obedience for years when she was younger.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Yes, he had his UDX at 3 years old (my first obedience dog past Novice A, so you know it's the dog, not the handler!). And Ann is right, Tito needed to finish his CH before we could really get into field, although cold tail was only one reason, the other was that we were finishing the UDX. 
No, Tito didn't run off and eat the first bird. He has never munched a bird. Not sure who you are thinking of, but it wasn't the Tito Monster. He did, however, run out and PICK UP the first bird he ever saw. In fact, the first day he ever saw birds he ran a double. 
I believe that having a strong obedience background was a HUGE asset in starting field, especially with a dog who was already 3 years old. He already understood "take it", "bring it", "hold it", "stay", and so on. Actually a lot of competitive obedience, especially UKC (he also got his UKC UD at about that time), is based on field. For example, the pivot to retrieve the gloves, or the sending the dog out halfway, having them sit to face you, and then giving them a hand signal to which glove to pick up is directly from casting. 
But I'm totally with Jodie on the transition not always meaning squat. I was shocked and amazed to see my totally obedient, wonderful dog when he got out in the field and started flipping me the middle toe, burning through an e-collar, etc. I saw a whole different side of my dog, one I never even knew existed until he encountered birds. 
Tito flew thru the obedience titles, getting his CD, CDX, UKC CD, UKC CDX, and UKC UD in 3 shows each. His AKC UD took 8 shows, while his AKC UDX took a total of 15 shows. Also got his AKC VER title in 3 shows. So luckily for me, it wasn't all that time consuming  .




Alaska7133 said:


> Thanks Maxs Mom,
> So Tito had his UDX then went on to his SH. I would love to hear what Barb has to say about that transition. If I remember right Tito went off and ate his first bird.
> 
> I can't imagine how hard it is (and time consuming) to get a UDX. For anyone out there wondering, here's a link to the AKC rule book on obedience competition. https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RO2999.pdf


----------



## Alaska7133

Good to know it wasn't Tito eating that bird!


----------



## FTGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> I was shocked and amazed to see my totally obedient, wonderful dog when he got out in the field and started flipping me the middle toe, burning through an e-collar, etc. I saw a whole different side of my dog, one I never even knew existed until he encountered birds.


That's really funny!!! It's almost as if he was telling you that the obedience titles were for you, but the field stuff is for HIM. 
I enjoy watching dogs that love the field work ... it's as if they are saying, "This is GREAT!" As I've said before, I wish that I loved my job as much as my dogs love their job!

FTGoldens


----------



## hollyk

This is total off subject, but FT's post reminded me of it.
I was north of the Border training a few weeks ago. Since quartering and sit to flush are apart of the Canadian SH & MH test we were practicing quartering. There were ducks hidden randomly up a brush line ( the grass was really short and the dog were spotting them). We just moved her up the line and told her to find it. Holy Cow, she got the game right away and you should have seen her work the area. It was amazing! I think we are going to have to give Upland hunting a go. 
Back to your regularly scheduled topic.


----------



## hotel4dogs

And that is totally the truth! I often say that field stuff is his reward for putting up with the other crap I've made him do! :



FTGoldens said:


> That's really funny!!! It's almost as if he was telling you that the obedience titles were for you, but the field stuff is for HIM.
> I enjoy watching dogs that love the field work ... it's as if they are saying, "This is GREAT!" As I've said before, I wish that I loved my job as much as my dogs love their job!
> 
> FTGoldens


----------



## EvanG

Claudia M said:


> I am not sure if it was on your video or Mike Lardy's where a here command was repeated for better speed on the e-collar conditioning.


It was on both because en route forcing is a standard component of the forcing process. The misunderstanding is its goal. It is not done to speed the dog up, although that will be an in-the-moment reaction. It is simply adding momentum, which is not the same as speed. You're right, we both do it. So does Danny Farmer, and any other competent follower of a Carr-based method. I just want to make it clear that we don't do it to make the dog faster.

EvanG


----------



## gdgli

K9-Design said:


> Here-nick-here it's just training
> 
> All this talk of speed of return is making me insane.


To be honest with you I feel speed of return is not such a big deal. However, I must admit that I am particularly fond of dogs that have a purpose in their step---going out and coming back.


----------



## gdgli

I am giving my opinion on the obedience issue. The people that have trouble getting obedience from their dogs in the field don't really know how to train for obedience under all conditions. Yes, many have obedience titles on their dogs but they have not made obedience a way of life.

OK, my high flyer might be described as a handful and it did take some time to get the obedience that I wanted but I will make a bold claim: Those that have said that they would never want to deal with a dog like Buffy have dogs that are by far less obedient than her in the field. And it shows every time we go into the field.

Example: I recently attended a training session with a friend. His dog was extremely disobedient and ran into the next field to disrupt a training group. The dog has her obedience titles but doesn't have obedience.

Finally, why is it that the pros have obedient dogs when they come to the line? There is a lot to be learned from the pro...


----------



## Claudia M

gdgli said:


> i am giving my opinion on the obedience issue. The people that have trouble getting obedience from their dogs in the field don't really know how to train for obedience under all conditions. Yes, many have obedience titles on their dogs but they have not made obedience a way of life.
> 
> Ok, my high flyer might be described as a handful and it did take some time to get the obedience that i wanted but i will make a bold claim: Those that have said that they would never want to deal with a dog like buffy have dogs that are by far less obedient than her in the field. And it shows every time we go into the field.
> 
> Example: I recently attended a training session with a friend. His dog was extremely disobedient and ran into the next field to disrupt a training group. The dog has her obedience titles but doesn't have obedience.
> 
> Finally, why is it that the pros have obedient dogs when they come to the line? There is a lot to be learned from the pro...


.....................amen!


----------



## hotel4dogs

And another thought, I believe a lot of people are much too concerned about turning their dog off from birds, or retrieving, or water, or some such thing so they let very basic obedience slip. Here means here, regardless of whether the dog has a bird, a bumper, a dumbbell, a toy, or nothing in his mouth. Sit means sit, same thing. Heel means heel, same thing. I'm not saying you have to be super picky, or come down hard on the dog.
JMO. If a dog is birdy, enforcing basic manners isn't going to change that.



gdgli said:


> I am giving my opinion on the obedience issue. The people that have trouble getting obedience from their dogs in the field don't really know how to train for obedience under all conditions. Yes, many have obedience titles on their dogs but they have not made obedience a way of life.
> 
> OK, my high flyer might be described as a handful and it did take some time to get the obedience that I wanted but I will make a bold claim: Those that have said that they would never want to deal with a dog like Buffy have dogs that are by far less obedient than her in the field. And it shows every time we go into the field.
> 
> Example: I recently attended a training session with a friend. His dog was extremely disobedient and ran into the next field to disrupt a training group. The dog has her obedience titles but doesn't have obedience.
> 
> Finally, why is it that the pros have obedient dogs when they come to the line? There is a lot to be learned from the pro...


----------



## Maxs Mom

A woman who trains with our trainer came to him from the obedience world. She had put OTCH's on her labs, wanted to try field. Trainer said he wanted to see these highly trained dogs.....Needless to say it didn't go well. Different world. Same woman now has 2 higher drive labs, multiple qualifiers for MN. 

I laugh at some of the proofing obedience people do. Gabby will stay off leash, no collar, if a duck is dropped 10' in front of her. Nothing you can proof will break that understanding. Sit means sit......

In obedience I can't say "heel" that was the command we worked when we started field and subsequently collar conditioning. I say "heel" and Gabby's eyes start scanning for birds and bird stations. I say "watch" in obedience. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alaska7133

Thanks Barb,
I used a here-nick-here on Lucy last night when she started to go visit the gunner. She made a turn directly towards me and came. I keep the nick low, just enough to let her know she was wrong. So I'll continue to use it. Thanks


----------



## EvanG

hotel4dogs said:


> And another thought, I believe a lot of people are much too concerned about turning their dog off from birds, or retrieving, or water, or some such thing so they let very basic obedience slip. Here means here, regardless of whether the dog has a bird, a bumper, a dumbbell, a toy, or nothing in his mouth. Sit means sit, same thing. Heel means heel, same thing. I'm not saying you have to be super picky, or come down hard on the dog.
> JMO. If a dog is birdy, enforcing basic manners isn't going to change that.


I hear you loud and clear. If a trainer needs to sacrifice one element to get another their approach to training is generally flawed, or they just don't have enough dog for what they're trying to do with them. Most of the time it's the former, rather than the latter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LslsUI6wpuI

This is my preference in action. Rock steady and attentive, explodes on retrieve when sent, and has a pleasing style on return. This is a balance of natural gifts and temperate but efficient training.

EvanG


----------



## FTGoldens

EvanG said:


> I hear you loud and clear. If a trainer needs to sacrifice one element to get another their approach to training is generally flawed, or they just don't have enough dog for what they're trying to do with them. Most of the time it's the former, rather than the latter.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LslsUI6wpuI
> 
> This is my preference in action. Rock steady and attentive, explodes on retrieve when sent, and has a pleasing style on return. This is a balance of natural gifts and temperate but efficient training.
> 
> EvanG


I disagree with the first paragraph, although as suggested by the second paragraph maybe it's just a preference. Notwithstanding, in my opinion and my experience, to get to the highest levels, sometimes you have to make sacrifices ... you, the trainer, must determine what is necessary to get your dog's performance to those levels.
My first "big" dog needed to be loose to mark (and it's generally recognized that a loose dog marks better, but a tight dog runs better blinds) ... if during the week before a trial I emphasized that he had to keep his rear on the ground while the marks went down, I'd not make it out of the first series, but if he could raise up and take a half step forward, he'd be much more likely "front foot" the birds and we were in the hunt for a pretty ribbon. My second "big" dog needed more control to even be able to see the birds go down. My current "big-dog-in-training" is naturally more steady ... so I am suggesting that it depends on the dog.
Also, as I have stated before, I run trials ... my dogs would never make it in the UKC tests.
(I see that the consensus on the board leans toward the obedience side of the scale, but I just haven't seen it in my experience.)
FTGoldens


----------



## gdgli

FT


Obedience in the field for me is not precision obedience, not heads up heeling in the field. It is having a dog who responds to my every command, a dog who is under control, a dog who sits on my first command. 

I am willing to guess that many Golden owners have not seen a really over the top driven Golden. Nobody remembers my name, they remember my dog's name. She has made me look foolish at tests and training sessions. Some of my forum friends are familiar with some of my "adventures". I have run after her in ponds and in the field. She loved this---it was great sport. Comments: "I would never own a dog like that." "She's crazy." "I would have killed her by now." And then "Why did you get a dog like that?" I will tell you why I got her. I love the drive. I loved the challenge of training her. It took a while but now my dog's obedience in the field is pretty darn good and I am proud of it. And now it is the other dogs who need the obedience training in the field, not mine. I don't mean to preach but gaining control of her is my biggest accomplishment. I didn't take an obedience dog out into the field to do some hunt testing. I took a dog from a pretty hot field trial breeding and made her into a good citizen. 

I really think that a lot of people find reasons to excuse poor obedience of their field dogs.

Again, the pros don't have a problem with their obedience. 

Excuse me for the plugs---thanks to consultation with Evan Graham and my obedience teacher Rick Pisani. I could have never done it without their help.


----------



## EvanG

I don't think we're understanding the original remarks the same way. I understood the example given by Hotel4dogs as letting fundamental obedience get out of control, i.e. "...here means here, regardless of whether the dog has a bird, a bumper, a dumbbell, a toy, or nothing in his mouth. Sit means sit, same thing. Heel means heel, same thing. I'm not saying you have to be super picky, or come down hard...", and I agree. But if a retriever won't come when called he's not a retriever. He's just a 'go getter', and that isn't useful.

In decades past it was much harder to keep dogs balanced in training because of the types of tools used to correct them. It was commonly believed that you can either keep them sharp on blinds, or sharp on marks. But keeping a dog sharp on both was rarely possible at a high level. I don't buy that at all. My dogs are rarely off their game in either aspect due to a well balanced training regimen, and the fact that they are well pressure conditioned. I imagine yours are as well, but no way of knowing.

But when I started it was flipped. I either got super blinds, and often weaker marks, or vice versa.

EvanG


----------



## FTGoldens

EvanG said:


> I don't think we're understanding the original remarks the same way. I understood the example given by Hotel4dogs as letting fundamental obedience get out of control, i.e. "...here means here, regardless of whether the dog has a bird, a bumper, a dumbbell, a toy, or nothing in his mouth. Sit means sit, same thing. Heel means heel, same thing. I'm not saying you have to be super picky, or come down hard...", and I agree. But if a retriever won't come when called he's not a retriever. He's just a 'go getter', and that isn't useful.


Indeed, our differences could merely be a matter of degrees and what you deem to be, for example, "rock steady" may be different than what I consider to be such. To me when a phrase such as "heel means heel" is used, the variance in degrees isn't necessarily understood. For me and my dogs, when going from the holding blind to the line, "heel" means to stay in my general proximity as opposed to keep your head by my left knee, which may be the way that some obedience enthusiasts may interpret the phrase. And for some super-high-rollers, maybe that level of control is necessary, but not for the typical field Golden ... I can think of only 1 all-age Golden who runs trials east of the Mississippi that needs that level of overbearance (he's a nice dog ... he is QAA ... hopefully he'll get his titles). 

Anyway, gotta go!

Everybody have a good weekend ... I'm heading out to run a trial.

Good luck to all who are running anything this weekend.

FTGoldens


----------



## EvanG

Good luck! Let us know. As Rex used to say as his clients headed off for a weekend, "Make 'em hate ya'!" 

EvanG


----------



## gdgli

hotel4dogs said:


> And another thought, I believe a lot of people are much too concerned about turning their dog off from birds, or retrieving, or water, or some such thing so they let very basic obedience slip. Here means here, regardless of whether the dog has a bird, a bumper, a dumbbell, a toy, or nothing in his mouth. Sit means sit, same thing. Heel means heel, same thing. I'm not saying you have to be super picky, or come down hard on the dog.
> JMO. If a dog is birdy, enforcing basic manners isn't going to change that.


Interestingly enough, when dealing with the here command I have heard several experienced handlers say, when training a young dog, not to worry about the dog dropping the bird, the dog must obey the here command. Tug on the long line or here-nick-here, the dog must come.


----------



## gdgli

Maxs Mom said:


> A woman who trains with our trainer came to him from the obedience world. She had put OTCH's on her labs, wanted to try field. Trainer said he wanted to see these highly trained dogs.....Needless to say it didn't go well. Different world. Same woman now has 2 higher drive labs, multiple qualifiers for MN.
> 
> I laugh at some of the proofing obedience people do. Gabby will stay off leash, no collar, if a duck is dropped 10' in front of her. Nothing you can proof will break that understanding. Sit means sit......
> 
> In obedience I can't say "heel" that was the command we worked when we started field and subsequently collar conditioning. I say "heel" and Gabby's eyes start scanning for birds and bird stations. I say "watch" in obedience.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I have two heel commands. In the obedience ring "Ready" gets her attention for heads up heeling and "Heel" gets her to move with me and her attention is on me. In the field I use "Heel easy" and I get eyes scanning the field and I am somewhere in her 270 deg field of vision. She is definitely scanning the field. In fact, from the time we start our progress to the holding blinds and to the line she already is doing reconnaissance and has scanned the field.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

George that is how the young dogs are trained in the beginning before FF. All they are expected to do is return on here. If they drop the bird on the way back that is not the concern. It is just coming back on here and giving lots of praise. Then further a long it is no, pick up your bird and so forth. And then after FF it is not allowed to drop the bird.


----------



## EvanG

gdgli said:


> Interestingly enough, when dealing with the here command I have heard several experienced handlers say, when training a young dog, not to worry about the dog dropping the bird, the dog must obey the here command. Tug on the long line or here-nick-here, the dog must come.


Initially, that's true. There is no more fundamentally important command than "Here". A dog that won't come is not a retriever. He's just a go getter, so to speak, and that is not useful. A dog that won't come is a danger to himself. 

Soon enough in development even a dog that is chronic about dropping birds will be trained not to. End of problem.

EvanG


----------



## gdgli

*FT

Why the problem with UKC tests?
*


----------



## EvanG

gdgli said:


> *FT
> 
> Why the problem with UKC tests?
> *


I must have missed something. What was the question?

EvanG


----------



## gdgli

EvanG said:


> I must have missed something. What was the question?
> 
> EvanG


Well FT did say that he runs trials and that his dogs would never make it in UKC tests. I was hoping that he or someone else would elaborate.


----------



## EvanG

gdgli said:


> Well FT did say that he runs trials and that his dogs would never make it in UKC tests. I was hoping that he or someone else would elaborate.


I'd like to hear about that too. I can't imagine my dogs not being competitive at all venues.

EvanG


----------



## FTGoldens

I'm back ... it's been a busy week!

This is what I meant by the UKC comment:
Although I've never run a UKC event, I've been given the impression that being a "model citizen" is expected, particularly at "The Grand." And as I've mentioned before, my "big dogs" have not been what most folks would consider to be exceedingly well mannered. Although they never bounced up and down with "happy feet" and never been vocal, they would on frequent occasion make it to the line long before I arrived there, be totally contrary about sitting on the mat, stand up while marks were going down, maybe even take a step or two or three while they were watching marks.
But again, I only run trials, where such malfeasance is tolerated. (And by no stretch of the imagination are my dogs the worst behavers. I don't know if anyone on this board ever saw "Lefty," a dog run by a guy named Jim Dorobek...Lefty, a highly pointed FC AFC (lab) was one of the best marking dogs that I've ever seen, yet he'd creep on every bird and spin around between birds...he'd get 20-30 feet from the line...I don't know how he ever saw the birds because he would often have his back turned while the birds were in the air. Yet, he was a multiple National qualifier and an amazing performer.)

Field trials keep me as busy as my schedule tolerates, so I train exclusively for that venue. If I ever have the time to expand my focus, maybe I'll need to ratchet up the obedience.

FTGoldens


----------



## gdgli

FT

I kind of thought that is what you were alluding to. 

I feel that a dog can still be under control but doesn't have to be marching in step with me to the line. Actually I have seen the worst behavior at Hunt Tests---in my opinion---with dogs not really under control. I mean it was terrible, Master Stake, lots of shouting and unresponsive dogs. 

What exactly is under control? I know it when I see it.


----------



## K9-Design

The weekend HRC tests are in no way any more or less expectant of control than AKC. 
HRC does have trends that are not my cup of tea....i.e. in your face birds (typically the first bird down), and more inconsistent judging of what flies and what doesn't than what I see at Master....
Anyways it is fun, I don't think it's for every dog or person but not a bad way to spend a weekend.


----------



## FTGoldens

K9-Design said:


> The weekend HRC tests are in no way any more or less expectant of control than AKC.
> HRC does have trends that are not my cup of tea....i.e. in your face birds (typically the first bird down), and more inconsistent judging of what flies and what doesn't than what I see at Master....
> Anyways it is fun, I don't think it's for every dog or person but not a bad way to spend a weekend.


I certainly concede that my perception may be way off, since I have absolutely no first-hand experience with HRC tests. And certainly, if I retire with enough money to play more dog games than field trials, I'll give HRC tests a shot, as well as AKC tests. By all reports, they are a ton of fun. But at the present time, I am finding that even my time for trials (and training for trials) is lacking.

Hey all, have a great weekend! 

FTGoldens


----------

