# Virginia Breeder



## 4338 (Feb 24, 2008)

Hello all,

I'm looking for a pair of puppies in the near future. I will be neutering and/or spaying at the appropriate age since I have no desire to ever breed them. I'm not concerned with "show quality" dogs as much as I'd like to have the best chance for good health and longevity. With all of that said, has anyone ever had any experience with the breeder below. Are there any red flags you see just by looking at the site? 

http://www.churchmountainkennel.org/

Does anyone have any other breeders in the Virginia area they'd recommend instead? I'll admit 1000-1200 seems a bit steep for a puppy (especially when I'm buying two). 700-800 seems much more reasonable; however, I'm willing to pay what it takes for piece of mind for a healthy and well tempered Golden.

Thanks!


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## maiapup (Nov 22, 2007)

JMHO, they have a lot of dogs and they don't seem to have names (other than call names) so you can verify clearances which are mentioned but I don't see any sort of documentation. The one dog is very oversized at 97 lbs. I have a very good friend in Virginia and can check with her to see if she's heard of them, she breeds Goldens also but only a litter a year or so and she doesn't let littermates go together. 

Kathi


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## maiapup (Nov 22, 2007)

I see the names and some clearances can be verified in the OFA database, not all have all clearances in the database but they may have documentation.

http://www.offa.org


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## telsmith1 (Sep 11, 2006)

They have 3 litters at once, that is alot IMO.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

Is it a normal practice to have dogs living outside in barrels for shelter?


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## goldenmomof3 (Feb 15, 2006)

telsmith1 said:


> They have 3 litters at once, that is alot IMO.


True, it IS alot, but it depends on the breeder. My breeder (known for show quality dogs - her kennel name is VERY well known) has had 3 litters at once. The reason is primarily because when one female comes in season, it tends to bring the others in season. I think it depends on their breeding practices. If they breed to males in-house, then that is a sign of a BYB (back yard breeder). I agree in this case, but just thought I'd clarify the flip side of that.


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## goldenmomof3 (Feb 15, 2006)

I do not know that kennel, but know alot of breeders up your way. Will be happy to give you kennel names if you send me a private message.

Just to clarify when you say SHOW BREEDER people tend to not want to get involved with that breeder. Let me say that out of every litter bred for show, you are fortunate to get 1 show quality pup, which is usually kept by the breeder. If you get 2, you are very happy. If you get 3, you are ecstatic, etc. For every litter there are PETS. These pets are the most beautiful dogs, but due to some minor reason (could be the teeth, tailset, topline not completely level) they do not cut it as a show dog. Health-wise, they are sound (usually). 

If I were going to get a pet of any breed, I would go to a SHOW breeder. They stand behind their pets and will give you help/advice for the lifetime of your dog. With a BYB (backyard breeder), they do NOT want to hear from you if something is wrong with your dog. Show breeders want to KNOW if something is not right in their lines. Just my humble opinion.

Good luck finding a puppy(puppies).


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## 4338 (Feb 24, 2008)

maiapup said:


> JMHO, they have a lot of dogs and they don't seem to have names (other than call names) so you can verify clearances which are mentioned but I don't see any sort of documentation. The one dog is very oversized at 97 lbs. I have a very good friend in Virginia and can check with her to see if she's heard of them, she breeds Goldens also but only a litter a year or so and she doesn't let littermates go together.
> 
> Kathi


That'd be great, or if she has any recommendations for other breeders. It has proved to be a daunting search for the "right" breeder.


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## 4338 (Feb 24, 2008)

goldenmomof3 said:


> I do not know that kennel, but know alot of breeders up your way. Will be happy to give you kennel names if you send me a private message.
> 
> Just to clarify when you say SHOW BREEDER people tend to not want to get involved with that breeder. Let me say that out of every litter bred for show, you are fortunate to get 1 show quality pup, which is usually kept by the breeder. If you get 2, you are very happy. If you get 3, you are ecstatic, etc. For every litter there are PETS. These pets are the most beautiful dogs, but due to some minor reason (could be the teeth, tailset, topline not completely level) they do not cut it as a show dog. Health-wise, they are sound (usually).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I understand your point completely.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

send a pm to RonG (jeter & casey) he entered the pick of them together (on the breeders site) in the december photo contest.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I agree with Penny, for the most part. I am a show breeder but most of my pups go into pet (companion)homes. I have no way of knowing for the first 6-7 weeks which puppy I will be keeping, so all of them get the same attention and exposure to new and different things (the Rule of 7-by 7 weeks puppy should have been on 7 different surfaces, eaten out of 7 bowls, etc.)

I stand behind my puppies, and my puppy people, for a lifetime.

There are BYB's who love their dogs, love their puppies, raise them in the house underfoot, and get all the necessary clearances-OFA/OVC hips and elbows, check hearts with a veterinary cardiologist and eyes with a veterinary opthamologists. There are not as many of them as there are the other kind of substandard breeders, but they are out there. If you can find one, they are not a bad choice either. Their dogs may not look exactly like mine, but they can still make excellent pets.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

hgatesy said:


> Is it a normal practice to have dogs living outside in barrels for shelter?


Absolutely not. I have kennels with wood decking for flooring, and carpenter built dog houses, for when the dogs need to be outside (usually during the day while I work), and I am not unusual.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

goldenmomof3 said:


> If they breed to males in-house, then that is a sign of a BYB (back yard breeder).


I think that is a blanket statement and unfair to label breeders as such because they may use their own boys...yes "if" a breeder never goes out to incorporate other males into their breeding program, that may be a red flag. If your in-house boy complements one of your own girls there is nothing wrong with using him...I bought my boy specifically to complement my breeding program.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

arcane said:


> I think that is a blanket statement and unfair to label breeders as such because they may use their own boys...yes "if" a breeder never goes out to incorporate other males into their breeding program, that may be a red flag. If your in-house boy complements one of your own girls there is nothing wrong with using him...I bought my boy specifically to complement my breeding program.


I agree with Heather-there are times a reputable breeder will use a boy they own, who complements their bitch and moves their breeding program ahead. It is not a good sign when they breed their own dog to their own bitch over and over and over, without going out to bring other males in to their breeding program.

I love my boy Creed, and I did breed him to my girl but-his daddy was out side of my lines, and so was his mother's father. I did those breedings to bring in or strengthen traits that I want in my dogs and in my breeding program.

Since I had only 4 surviving pups from that litter, I will repeat the breeding but I am already starting to look for studs for the litter after that, so I am looking a year or more out and trying to plan my direction.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

This is from their website regarding purchasing their puppies: 



*We enjoy you bringing your children, but we please ask for you; not to let your children, pick-up and carry around the puppies. Please have your children sit down and play with the puppies."**Our policy here at Church Mountain...if you drop a puppy, you've bought that puppy".*

This really rubbed me the wrong way. In essence they are saying that if a child cannot properly hold a puppy and drops it, they will send that puppy home with the very child who cannot properly hold it. Doesn't say much for wanting to assure the best possible homes for their puppies. There are several red flags here for me. Their 97 pound sweetie for one, the sheer number of dogs and their living quarters for another. And the fact that they average 10-13 litters per year... Looking at the OFA database shows incomplete clearance info. They say some dogs have PennHip. There are a few in the OFA database with hips, no elbows. None of the dogs have permanent identification - with that number of dogs I would expect them to be microchipped. Going to K9 database, these people breed their dogs well before the age of two. All issues to consider.

This sickens me:
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=228401

Note the photo. This is not how a litter should be raised...


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Please take the advice the prior posters have given you. This kennels methods are extremely unethical and the "way" they raise litters is a cause for concern. If you are interested please feel free to PM me I would be happy to give you a list of reputable Breeders in and around your area. I wouldn't be walking away from this one I would running the "red flags" are EVERYWHERE. JMHO


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> This sickens me:
> http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=228401
> 
> Note the photo. This is not how a litter should be raised...


Oh my Gosh!!!!!!!!  I just lost my appetite ....


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## goldenmomof3 (Feb 15, 2006)

arcane said:


> I think that is a blanket statement and unfair to label breeders as such because they may use their own boys...yes "if" a breeder never goes out to incorporate other males into their breeding program, that may be a red flag. If your in-house boy complements one of your own girls there is nothing wrong with using him...I bought my boy specifically to complement my breeding program.


I agree with you - I had a male that finished his CH and I had to search for a bitch to breed him to. The point is that when you see no titles and time and time again they breed to the same male and for the most part if they have several breeds of dogs that they are breeding at the same time, chances are they might be considered a puppy mill. Just a statement, not meaning to debate the issue here.


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## maiapup (Nov 22, 2007)

Hi, I talked to my friend in Virginia, she's never heard of those folks, but she would be happy to talk to you about puppies, breeder referral, etc. Please contact me privately and I'll send you the contact info.

Kathi


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## Packleader (Nov 27, 2007)

K9 data has a lot of information and is a good place to start. I also check the genetic information on a dog. I want low numbers in this area as I believe that it reduces the risk of health issues.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Packleader said:


> K9 data has a lot of information and is a good place to start. I also check the genetic information on a dog. I want low numbers in this area as I believe that it reduces the risk of health issues.


Not always is this correct. The genetic make-up of that dog and health issues that are behind those lines are more important. I will link you a thread about COI's. Here it is http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=27687


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Packleader said:


> K9 data has a lot of information and is a good place to start. I also check the genetic information on a dog. I want low numbers in this area as I believe that it reduces the risk of health issues.


 
Well, you'll sure have low with this operation. They are total outcrosses for the most part, but as far as the reduction on genetic health issues, I wouldn't count on it. Not when there is no history of good genetics to begin with. A low COI means nothing if the dogs in the vertical pedigree have hereditary health problems.


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## 4338 (Feb 24, 2008)

Thanks for all the feedback so far. Based on your recommendations I have begun looking at other breeders as well. I recently spoke to this lady on the phone. She seemed to have a geniune care for the dogs and the adopting parents.

http://www.carolinacountrykennels.com/golden.html


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

There was no information on clearances on the website, or pedigrees.

Make sure both parents have OFA/OVC hip and elbow clearances, eyes cleared by a veterinary opthamologist and heart by a veterinary cardiologist.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Did she give you OFA and AKC information? Nothing on the site gives you enough information to do a search and verify anything. 

Plus she uses one male as a stud for all 7 of her females? And 2 litters due soon. 

Plus she has just 1 stud for her 4 female labs. with a litter due anytime.

At least she doesn't appear to have any bull mastiff puppies due soon.

For $900 I'd want a lot more information.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

marshab1 said:


> Did she give you OFA and AKC information? Nothing on the site gives you enough information to do a search and verify anything.
> 
> Plus she uses one male as a stud for all 7 of her females? And 2 litters due soon.
> 
> ...


Sorry. I couldn't get past the Borzoi-looking head on Tess the GR, the strange head on Rosie the Bullmastiff, and the Lab stud Regal, who looks like he is more hound than Lab.

For the money that they are asking I would at least expect dogs that look like what they are supposed to be.

Clearances? What clearances...


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Sorry. I couldn't get past the Borzoi-looking head on Tess the GR, the strange head on Rosie the Bullmastiff, and the Lab stud Regal, who looks like he is more hound than Lab.
> 
> For the money that they are asking I would at least expect dogs that look like what they are supposed to be.
> 
> Clearances? What clearances...


I had to call my brother in NC and ask if all the goldens look kind of odd down there. But he said no most of what he sees look like Tinkerbell.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

marshab1 said:


> I had to call my brother in NC and ask if all the goldens look kind of odd down there. But he said no most of what he sees look like Tinkerbell.


So you thought those dogs looked "odd" too, eh? 
DISCLAIMER: It's not their fault, and they could be perfectly lovely dogs. But, for that kind of money one would expect a certain quality.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I would pass on that one to. I didn't see any mention of clearences anywhere. This may be shallow but $900 could buy you something a little more appealing to the eye and something with clearences LOL


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

I don't think that's shallow at all.... I'd completely agree. 

I wonder what happened to Glory (the lab) after she had her last litter? I'm almost afraid to ask. And I guess it doesn't really matter... but it's just an observation. They have two pictures of the lab stud "Regal" on the page. No way is that the same dog in both pictures. He has hound dog sized ears in the first one and lab sized ears in the second.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

hgatesy said:


> I don't think that's shallow at all.... I'd completely agree.


Good I didn't think so but on the off chance a thought a disclaimer was a good idea LMAO


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## churchmountainkennel (Feb 25, 2008)

*Church Mountain Kennel*

Hello!
My name is Camie Shifflett. I own Church Mountain Kennel.
My good friend Ron G. emailed me this evening, letting me know about this forum and thread about me.
At frist I was upset about some of the things that were being said about me. I feel like I was judged wrongly, by some people(breeders) who have never visited my kennel or even know who I am.

I have been breeding goldens for almost 14 yrs now. I'm a VERY HONEST breeder. I may not have a "BIG,NICE,FANCY FACILITY" - but rest assured that I breed ONLY HEALTHY GOLDENS, with all clearences.!
Just because a breeder does not have a big,nice,fancy facilty does not mean they are a backyard breeder. Also...just because a breeder may have 3-4 litters at once does not make them a backyard breeder either!

I had 8 girls come in season at the same time..I decided to breed 4 out of the 8..to get them on differant heat cycles. I must admit, having four litters is ALOT OF WORK! But I'm so enjoying it!

I do take pride in my goldens, I love them all!! And I'm proud to say...please don't take this as being conceided(sp?) I take pride in being honest with everyone that gets a puppy from me. I do not give a long sells pitch, or push to sell my puppies! 
I make sure all my goldens are hip/eyes/heart certified before breeding. IF one of my dogs have ANY of these problems, I simply do not breed them. That's more then I can say for alot of other breeders!

ALOT of those big breeders with big facilities(35 plus dogs)... are a business, and NOTHING MORE THEN A BUSINESS!!

alot OF THOSE BREEDERS are breeding dogs with cancer,cateracts,hip problems,heart & eye problems.

THOSE ARE YOUR BACKYARD BREEDERS!

I breed to..like my website saids.."TO GIVE YOU GOOD,HEALTHY FAMILY PETS"!
I would much rather my puppies go home with loving families then other breeders,,who stick them in kennels 24/7, and just use them to breed.
I HATE TO SEE GOLDENS IN KENNELS 24/7!!

I'm proud to say, that my goldens run together and are with each other 24/7. I have 13 children that play with my goldens 24/7. They are very much loved and socialized!!

I have my Nuggett and Jake(and a few others) with champion lines in thier 2nd generation back..who do throw beautiful puppies, who possibly could be show quality.
BUT...............Just because a golden has champion lines, does not make it any better then one who does not. I know there will be ALOT of show breeders who will 100% disagree with me on this. And that's ok. Everyone has thier own opinion.
I do not inline breed. Which I do believe causes alot of these problems in goldens(hip dysplasia,cateracts and cancer etc..).

My Zip weighs 97 lbs and my Tonka weighs 94 lbs. These boys throw beautiful pet quality puppies!( I have to admit though..I think they would have a good chance of winning in the show ring..if they were not so big).
I'm asking everyone to PLEASE not knock my good name or my kennel, without knowing me frist. Please do not be so quick to judge someone you don't know.

ALOT of breeders will knock other breeders...alot of them they think it's a competition or something! Or they do it to sell thier puppies! I'm not like that.

Thank you for reading...I just needed to respond to this thread.


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## churchmountainkennel (Feb 25, 2008)

*ps..*

P.S.....I forgot to mention..I have not updated my info on OFFA.ORG....
I do not use OFA any longer for hip clearences..I'm now using Pinn-hip...Any breeders out there using this instead of OFA?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Can you please tell me how you justify breeding dogs under the age of two?

Can you tell me that having a bitch with obviously new puppies living outdoors in a dog house is okay? You have a number of photos on your website which clearly show how your dogs are kept. But the photo of the bitch with new puppies in an outdoor, wooden dog house on k9 data (which also provided the information regarding the breeding of underaged dogs...) was a real eye opener.


You may be a very nice person. That's not the issue. 


And no, I do not and will not use PennHip, for a variety of reasons.


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## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

And we can then assume that you will not be breeding the dogs that threw a beautiful dog that needed both hips replaced?


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

This is going be fun. :uhoh::uhoh:


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Nah Hooch don't even worry about.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Sure!!!!!!!!!! LOL


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## churchmountainkennel (Feb 25, 2008)

ok I'm done...you know...you show breeders need to stop thinking your so much better then everyone else. I have nothing to hide..do you?
And don't tell me you have never had a puppy that ended up with hip dysplasia..LOL....don't lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..I'm a good reputable breeder..I did not smaer your name so stop smearing mine please. Feel free to email me [email protected]


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## goldenmomof3 (Feb 15, 2006)

churchmountainkennel said:


> ok I'm done...you know...you show breeders need to stop thinking your so much better then everyone else. I have nothing to hide..do you?
> And don't tell me you have never had a puppy that ended up with hip dysplasia..LOL....don't lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..I'm a good reputable breeder..I did not smaer your name so stop smearing mine please. Feel free to email me [email protected]


What should be the issues here is breeding SOUND goldens and placing them in good homes - not just for money. Most breeders I know have a wait list for their puppies and will not sell to homes where they have small children. You might find this very offensive, but time and time again a puppy (no matter what breed) ends up in a rescue situation because the people cannot care for the dog and small children. They have no idea how much work it is. In my contract I have the right of first refusal on ANY puppy no matter how old if they can no longer care for the dog. This is standard procedure. Most show or hobby breeder would never breed without all their clearances. This is not to say that there are never accidental breedings, which are sold without papers usually - even if they are beautiful show quality puppies.

I am a firm believer that hip issues can be genetic OR it can also be due to the care of the person that owns that dog. Lack of exercise CAN (notice I said can) keep the muscle from pulling the bone into the socket; thereby, making the hips subluxed.

When you say that you "throw a puppy every once in a while that could win in the ring", well, we ALL think our puppies could win in the ring, don't we? It doesn't have anything to do with how cute they are. Read the standard on www.grca.org and see what disqualifies a golden - you would be surprised. 

I breed show quality, but am not in the same league as some show breeders. I am being mentored by someone that is very well known in the show world and am very fortunate to have someone teaching me. The difference between what she does and what I do is huge - she will place a dog in her kennel if they have the slightest little thing wrong with them. I have kept all the dogs that were not show quality or could not be bred. Just because our dogs sleep on our beds and hers don't. I do not knock her for what works for her - she loves every one of her dogs and it hurts her when she has to place one, but her philosophy (and it is a good one) is that the dog will have a better quality of life when it goes to live with a family. This is true. 

This thread could be an interesting one ....


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## goldenmomof3 (Feb 15, 2006)

Oh, I forgot to mention, I donate ALOT of money to rescue! My personal belief is that breeders need to contribute to rescue. I would just DIE if one of my puppies sold ended up in rescue! I pray that day never happens!!


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## maiapup (Nov 22, 2007)

I'm not a breeder nor will I ever breed my girls, I just simply have no desire to do so nor would I risk losing them during whelping, that' s my deal. 

That said, I can honestly say, I would never consider purchasing a dog from someone who kept the dogs as it 'appears' the dogs are kept there. Whether they are tied to dog houses in a large dirt area or in a 35 run kennel, neither are how I would like my prospective puppy to be whelped and cared for.

The two males are way oversized, period. I'm not sure how you would know if anything you had was show quality or within the breed standard, since you don't participate in that activity nor any other dog related activity that I can see. It also doesn't appear that you are trying to move to better breeding practices by mentoring with an experienced Golden fancier. Because you've been breeding them for several years, doesn't mean that you are good at it. I often tell people, there are Dog Breeders and then there are simply People breeding dogs. There is a big difference.

To give you the benefit of the doubt (my doubt), perhaps you need to reevaluate how the animals are kept or if they are not housed in a fenced yard/pen with dog houses maybe you do need to work on your website to portray the truth about your operation. Though with 13 kids, I can't imagine you'd have time for that in addition to taking care of 4 litters.


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## churchmountainkennel (Feb 25, 2008)

*Just another thought*

Ok..I said I was done posting. This I promise will be my last post.
Please feel free to emailme if you have anymore questions or concerns.
I'm just sorry some of you feel ill towards me and my kennel.
I love what I do!! I love seeing smiling faces and putting puppies in someone's arms. And I will say once again..I breed for healthy family pets..not for showing. Both Zip and Tonka are beautiful goldens with such great dispositions. Both have all clearences. 
They are large, but they are not show quality..pet quality.
The rest of my goldens are within breed standard height/weight.

I'm not a big facility..I live in the country. My dogs are allowed to run together,play,roll in the grass/dirt etc..they are very much loved and happy. And I'm so sorry some of you feel like they are unhappy.
We are in the process of moving this spring/summer where I hope to find a barn,etc..to convert into a fine kennel.

I'm a very honest person..and I'm so sorry some of you think I'm hiding something or making excuses.

I'm a reputable breeder and I have made alot of families happy and breeders.
I do strive to better the breed by not breeding BAD DOGS..I breed also for personality..Looks aren't everything!!

Show breeders are differant then other breeders and I do look up to you. So please don't knock me or my kennel because of picture's etc..I don't hide anything on my website.

I don't know what else to say. I hope in the near future the ones who look down on me will change your minds. Take care all.. and keep doing what your doing. Your doing a wonderful thing! And you have beautiful goldens!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

churchmountainkennel said:


> Ok..I said I was done posting. This I promise will be my last post.
> Please feel free to emailme if you have anymore questions or concerns.
> I'm just sorry some of you feel ill towards me and my kennel.
> I love what I do!! I love seeing smiling faces and putting puppies in someone's arms. And I will say once again..I breed for healthy family pets..not for showing. Both Zip and Tonka are beautiful goldens with such great dispositions. Both have all clearences.
> ...


 
I would rather hope that you might consider changing YOUR mind as to how those dogs are kept, breeding underaged dogs, and including elbow and annual CERF eye checks. You were offered much constructive criticism last night, but rather than answer direct questions or take advice from people who have nothing more than the best interests of the dogs in mine, you ask us to lower our standards exponentially and accept what you do. 
You certainly didn't hide anything on your website, and that is the crux of the concerns. A very high number of dogs, living in barrels and rickety wooden dog boxes, including two bitches with neonate puppies in dox boxes with dirt and straw in them... I'm sorry, but I cannot in any way reconcile that to making it "okay". You seem like a very nice woman, but that doesn't make what is being done with those dogs nice at all.


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## churchmountainkennel (Feb 25, 2008)

*Done*

Here I go again..I need to stop responding.
There is nothing I can say to make you stop feeling ill towards me or my kennel. And I'm so sorry you have a bad impression of me.
I DO NOT keep my golens in dogboxes with pups. I use a heated building..with an outside run. And I do use straw after 3 wks of age. There is nothing wrong with that at all. We all do things differantly. But I feel..we all have agreed to breed and raise the best golden retrievers possible. To produce healthy pups! That's the impotant factor in all this.
I don't remember who posted they don't sell pups to people with small children. I would much rather sell my pups to people with children. I think families are the best homes to give our puppies.

I will not continue this any longer. Again, I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I do better the breed, by not breeding dogs with bad genetics etc.. and I do breed within breed standard. And I choose to breed Tonka and Zip for PET QUALITY. I'm sorry you feel ill about this.

Continue the wonderful breeding that your doing. I think your a great bunch of ladies.. sorry oyu don't feel the same towards me.
Again..no matter what is being said..I need to stop posting. I don't deserve this upset and my dogs are wonderful. Take care!!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Sorry you feel this way. I feel I was as contructive with you as I could be last night. Like I said I do hope you will take some of what I said to heart. I was giving you my honest opinion which I do not give a lot of people. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Good luck.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

all this talk of pet quality vs show quality..... shouldn't ALL dogs be bred to the BEST quality, regardless of whether they are intended to be show dogs or "just" a family pet??


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Whew. This lady was offered much very helpful information last night by several - breeders and owners alike. 
But she obviously believes that what she is doing is just fine. 

A dog needing a double hip replacement (as was produced by this nice lady) is not genetically healthy. And just because you don't see genetic disease doesn't mean that it is not there. High Volume Breeders selling 10 and more litters per year, without those puppies being screened, cannot possibly know what health issues they are producing. Repeatedly breeding the same dogs without enough time in between to do clearances is not a sound breeding practice - there is simply no way of knowing if you've produced health issues until it is too late, if at all when clearances are not done.
Education? All I can say is that I hope that potential puppy buyers are learning something, even if "breeders" refuse to.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Education? All I can say is that I hope that potential puppy buyers are learning something, even if "breeders" refuse to.


I hope this too if for nothing else maybe someone got some information from the time you and I and the other knowlegable Breeders spent replying here.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> all this talk of pet quality vs show quality..... shouldn't ALL dogs be bred to the BEST quality, regardless of whether they are intended to be show dogs or "just" a family pet??


They absolutely should and you are totally correct Marlene. The fact that someone says well he has a disqualifying fault, or is too young for final cleareces, may not be healthy and sound - thats ok I will just breed pets really pisses me off. I do have show picks from my litter but I'll tell you what the same careful research, consideration, effort, time and the overall process of planning the litter was the same. Just because I call them companion puppies does not mean those companion puppies are lesser then show picks I have kept. That is the diffrence between the majority of us and the kennel is question. It comes down to the breeding ethics and overall respect for the breed.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

i just don't understand how she says 



churchmountainkennel said:


> I will not continue this any longer. Again, I'm sorry you feel the way you do. I do better the breed, by not breeding dogs with bad genetics etc.. *and I do breed within breed standard.*


 
when she's got a 97lb dog as her main stud dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I have stated NUMEROUS times on this forum that I detest the term "just pets". I think that being a well loved family companion is the most honorable position a dog can have, and to that end, I strive to produce dogs that will be every bit as healthy and long-lived as any dog being shown. In fact, I think it even more important, as I NEVER want to be the cause of a family suffering a dog dying of a hereditary heart defect while romping in the yard with the children, or being blind at age two and unable to play ball with those kids, or crippled with hip dysplasia and needing surgery before the age of one. 
The ONLY difference in the dogs that I let go as "pets" and the ones I consider "show potential" are cosmetic, and I defy anyone with an untrained eye to see those differences. And in fact I have sold "pets" who have gone on to complete their titles in any number of venues. I hold my "pet" buyers in very high esteem, because they are providing wonderful, loving homes for my puppies, and have taken that responsibility very seriously, as do I as their breeder. Those puppies never asked to be born...

Seeing dogs bred over and over again without regard to their genetic health history generations back, or for the recent generations that they have produced, is frustrating at best for those of us who respect both the history of the breed and it's future.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

missmarstar said:


> i just don't understand how she says
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, to be fair, he probably wasn't 97 pounds when he was first used at TEN MONTHS OLD.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

churchmountainkennel said:


> I do better the breed, by not breeding dogs with bad genetics etc.. and I do breed within breed standard. And I choose to breed Tonka and Zip for PET QUALITY. I'm sorry you feel ill about this.


I am sorry but you contradict yourself here. How can you say you "do breed within breed standard." and in the very next sentence state "And I choose to breed Tonka and Zip for PET QUALITY". Each country may have it's own parent club who have their own "Breed Standard". While these may vary slightly from one country to the next each has only one STANDARD and not one for "show dogs" and another for "pet quality." Actually these standards are set so those who truly desire to better the breed know what the breed should be and are used as a measuring tool to determine if a dog should be bred. I agree that temperment (personality) is of the utmost importance to this breed there is so much more to a golden retriever to also be considered.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

in all fairness it's not like she came on here asking for advice, she never approached anyone about bettering her program. someone simply asked if we had heard of her & she came on to defend herself...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

LOVEisGOLDEN said:


> in all fairness it's not like she came on here asking for advice, she never approached anyone about bettering her program. someone simply asked if we had heard of her & she came on to defend herself...


True. But if you put yourself out on the internet with a public website to sell puppies you had better expect that you are going to be scrutinized and have opened yourself up to questions regarding your breeding operation.

And she did in fact go into chat and entered into a room opened up for a discussion of breeding ethics.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

LOVEisGOLDEN said:


> in all fairness it's not like she came on here asking for advice, she never approached anyone about bettering her program. someone simply asked if we had heard of her & she came on to defend herself...


We had a seperate conversation last night and she was looking for advice asking us what we thought was wrong with it. So in all fairness I was not giving opinions and comments I was not asked for. Thanks


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

In chat last night she was asking how to improve her dogs and talked about wanting to start showing but didnt know how. I think she loves her dogs but just doesnt know what the standard is and the ethics that go with be a good quality breeder. She certainly has alot of kids to help witha ALL the dogs she has in her kennel.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> We had a seperate conversation last night and she was looking for advice asking us what we thought was wrong with it. So in all fairness I was not giving opinions and comments I was not asked for. Thanks


She has pm'd me several times, as well.

But honestly, it's like a "Hi, How are you? Nevermind I don't really want to know" conversation. :doh:


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Absolutely not. I have kennels with wood decking for flooring, and carpenter built dog houses, for when the dogs need to be outside (usually during the day while I work), and I am not unusual.


HeeHee, I've seen the pics and I'm comin' to live in your kennels when I'm too old to care for myself!

Jazzys Mom


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

churchmountainkennel said:


> Here I go again..I need to stop responding.
> There is nothing I can say to make you stop feeling ill towards me or my kennel. And I'm so sorry you have a bad impression of me.
> I DO NOT keep my golens in dogboxes with pups. I use a heated building..with an outside run. And I do use straw after 3 wks of age. There is nothing wrong with that at all. We all do things differantly. But I feel..we all have agreed to breed and raise the best golden retrievers possible. To produce healthy pups! That's the impotant factor in all this.
> I don't remember who posted they don't sell pups to people with small children. I would much rather sell my pups to people with children. I think families are the best homes to give our puppies.
> ...


I don't want to get into this but I do have to ask this one question. You say you breed to breed standard. How can you breed to breed standard when you are breeding 2 "pet quality" dogs?? Just doesn't make much sense to me. I AM NOT a breeder. I HAVE bred 2 litters of Goldens and showed in conformation and obedience as well as dabbling in freestyle obedience. Pet quality parents throw pet quality puppies. Pet quality is not up to breed standard no matter which way you cut it. What you are calling "SHOW" breeders are essentially breeding 2 breed standard dogs and getting breed standard puppies, which of those puppies maybe 1 or if you are extremely lucky 2 of that litter will become show dogs. Most will go to pet homes but they are still bred to breed standard. My Jazzy was not any better or any worse than the other 7 puppies in her litter. All are gorgeous dogs and each one would be excellent in the show ring. Jazzy has 1 crooked tooth which would disqualify her in the breed ring - but she was bred to breed standard! I really think before breeding ANY dog one or both parents should be titled or at the very least pointed. Then you know you are breeding to breed standard, a judge (or judges) have stated so. You can have many BIG names in a dogs pedigree but if the outcrosses and line breedings are not done with educated precision then they mean nothing

Jazzys Mom


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Jazzys Mom said:


> I really think before breeding ANY dog one or both parents should be titled or at the very least pointed. Then you know you are breeding to breed standard, a judge (or judges) have stated so. Jazzys Mom


I was with you up until that point.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Sorry Hooch! I know there are exceptions. I was stating "big picture!"

Jazzys Mom


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

No reason to be sorry my view is not a popular one and who knows I have been wrong before.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Jazzys Mom said:


> Sorry Hooch! I know there are exceptions. I was stating "big picture!"
> 
> Jazzys Mom


And now with the CCA program, we are fast heading to the time when everyone can at least go for a CCA on their dog, if they don't want to do conformation shows.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> I was with you up until that point.


Hey Hooch...I believe we all know your views on the show circuit however I do think it is important for responsible breeders to do something with their dogs be it show,obedience,agility, the list goes on...any title shows that you are striving for improvement and not just basking in the monetary gain ( however small it may be) from breeding so-called family pets ...temperaments are paramount but so is the breed standard. It would be just like someone building a house with no regard to blueprints or building codes...just my humble opinion:wave:


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> And now with the CCA program, we are fast heading to the time when everyone can at least go for a CCA on their dog, if they don't want to do conformation shows.


Which I would do if I were healthy and still going to be in the breeder world. I think it is an idea whose time has come.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

arcane said:


> Hey Hooch...I believe we all know your views on the show circuit however I do think it is important for responsible breeders to do something with their dogs be it show,obedience,agility, the list goes on...any title shows that you are striving for improvement and not just basking in the monetary gain ( however small it may be) from breeding so-called family pets ...temperaments are paramount but so is the breed standard. It would be just like someone building a house with no regard to blueprints or building codes...just my humble opinion:wave:



Monetary gain??? My checkbook would thank you if you could find it. ROFL


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> Monetary gain??? My checkbook would thank you if you could find it. ROFL


:well mine tooo!!! rotflmao...and i am not pointing this is at you directly, but i am sure the BYB's must have some kickback with no show/performance expenses, minimal clearance costs, perhaps using in house dogs over and over and breeding multiple litters per year strictly for family pets...heck why else would they be doing it??


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

arcane said:


> :well mine tooo!!! rotflmao...and i am not pointing this is at you directly, but i am sure the BYB's must have some kickback with no show/performance expenses, minimal clearance costs, perhaps using in house dogs over and over and breeding multiple litters per year strictly for family pets...heck why else would they be doing it??


I didn't think you were but you know me I can;t let one pass me by when I am feeling well. And today is a rare day. LOL


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> I didn't think you were but you know me I can;t let one pass me by when I am feeling well. And today is a rare day. LOL


I am super glad to hear you are feeling good today :yipee:


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Thanks I am hoping for two in a row. LOL


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

arcane said:


> Hey Hooch...I believe we all know your views on the show circuit however I do think it is important for responsible breeders to do something with their dogs be it show,obedience,agility, the list goes on...any title shows that you are striving for improvement and not just basking in the monetary gain ( however small it may be) from breeding so-called family pets ...temperaments are paramount but so is the breed standard. It would be just like someone building a house with no regard to blueprints or building codes...just my humble opinion:wave:


 
Temperament is part of the breed standard. If a breeder is doing a good job, sound temperament will be there along with everything else that comprises the standard. Picking one item out of the breed standard and saying that is what you are breeding for, while completely ignoring the rest, doesn't mean that you are doing a good job. 
I see these dogs every week in my classes. A 29" tall Golden, cow-hocked, with missing teeth in a head that looks like a fat Collie's and a tail long enough to wrap around his neck... He has papers. He is sweet as he can be, and his "breeder" has repeated the breeding that produced him because they "have great personalities and are wonderful pets."
I have also seen Goldens with amazing speed and "drive" who are so intense as to be nearly impossible to live with. THEIR breeder had some success with FlyBall, so have repeated the breedings that produced them. There has been at least 3 puppies in every litter with elbow dysplasia.
It never ends...


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## goldenmomof3 (Feb 15, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Temperament is part of the breed standard. If a breeder is doing a good job, sound temperament will be there along with everything else that comprises the standard. Picking one item out of the breed standard and saying that is what you are breeding for, while completely ignoring the rest, doesn't mean that you are doing a good job.
> I see these dogs every week in my classes. A 29" tall Golden, cow-hocked, with missing teeth in a head that looks like a fat Collie's and a tail long enough to wrap around his neck... He has papers. He is sweet as he can be, and his "breeder" has repeated the breeding that produced him because they "have great personalities and are wonderful pets."
> I have also seen Goldens with amazing speed and "drive" who are so intense as to be nearly impossible to live with. THEIR breeder had some success with FlyBall, so have repeated the breedings that produced them. There has been at least 3 puppies in every litter with elbow dysplasia.
> It never ends...


Thank you for pointing out temperament. It is a pet peeve of mine!! Goldens should be GOLDEN in temperament!! If we breed dogs with bad temperaments and these puppies go into a house where kids are or even aggressive towards another dog, then we have done the breed an injustice. Temperament, IMHO, is the KEY to this breed!! It is one of the first things that I learn about a stud dog before breeding to it.


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

According to GRCA Golden Retriever standards:

_*Temperament *_-- friendly, reliable and trustworthy. Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards other dogs or people in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Golden Retriever character. Such actions should be penalized according to their significance.

Unfortunately, I have seen Goldens that were just the opposite of this standard due to faulty breeding practices

The standard also says:

_*Size, Proportion, Substance*_ -- Males 23-24 inches in height at withers; females 21 1/2-22 1/2 inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall disqualify.
Length from breastbone to point of buttocks slightly greater than height at withers in ratio of 12:11. Weight for dogs 65-75 pounds; bitches 55-65 pounds.

So the 97 lb stud dog that was studded out at age 10 months was well over breed standard so she COULDN'T have been breeding to breed standard

Jazzys Mom


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