# Clicker Training



## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Well Greg you asked for it  I'm too lazy to type a bunch of stuff out so here's the link to the clicker page on my web site :wave: 

http://www.geocities.com/agilityretrievers/clicker.htm


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think clicker training is great for some things. I would click train performance obedience, agility, musical freestyle...

I use traditional methods combined with some positive ones for daily life...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

man..do u have the cliff's notes version?.. I just wanna know what it is all about.. that's all.. 
and I really am against people abusing their dogs with a clicker.. lol....


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

http://www.clickertraining.com/training/clicker_basics/index.htm?loaditem=what_is_ct that's a shorter link


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

lol Greg it's about "loading" a sound (in this case a click) with rewards so that you can use that sound to indicate precisely when the dog has offered the right behavior. It's about the dog learning to think and offer behaviors. It's about having a third arm to hold the clicker lol... that's why I use a sound I make w/my mouth. The dog is lured with a target stick, food, etc into offering behaviors, never forced or pushed. It creates happy, willing workers, even in breeds like Greyhounds and Salukis, but it does not work on dogs that dislike food (such as most Greyhounds and Salukis, haha) and that is its biggest downfall IMO. If your dog could give a crap less about toys, treats, and praise, forget clicker training... if your dog is a greedy pig or is frantic for frisbees, it's great.

I don't use it in daily life b/c I am impatient with some things, like basic obedience off leash, etc... and find correction based training with some rewards, praise etc gets more INSTANT results. But I DO use it for tricks and so forth.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

greg bell said:


> ...and I really am against people abusing their dogs with a clicker.. lol....


:lol: Clicker abuse must end...


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Clicker training would have been excellent to start Lucky out on when he was a little pup (9 to 14 weeks). Corrective training at that time was absolutely useless. Food always brought a few more brain cells to the front and focus. Too bad I missed that opportunity...I think I'd have some better experiences to remember.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

But on a more positive note....this training is great teaching Lucky to help around the house..picking up laundry, kids toys.... He LIKES to do housework.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Wow, do you think it works on men?

Click and beer?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Wow, do you think it works on men?
> Click and beer?


Housework? No. Corrective training is no good also. Tht was tried for many years with no success.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Actually Karen Pryor's book "Don't Shoot the Dog" has entire sections on how to change other people's behavior with clicker principles


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## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Click and beer?


 Lol!!!

I'm sure it works for some but after listening to a woman use it in dog training one night, I was ready to shove the clicker down her throat!! The noise drove me crazy. A beer might have helped!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Mb... Im with you on this....It drove me nuts!!!!!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

They make ones that you can adjust the volume, I find the sound of those much less obnoxious, but I don't mind the normal clicker sound anyways ...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Wow, do you think it works on men?
> Click and beer?


well you gotta have the right lure...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

haha! I don't like the sound either, at a class it makes me crazy... at home I don't mind.

Beer, now that always sounds good. Enjoying a Hornsby's right now...


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

ok.. question..for discussion, not arguing.. now.. lets suppose you have taught said dawg to come on command using the clicker... and the treat... now ... lets suppose said dog, while on a walk, jumps a rabitt (rabbit?)... lets say it jumps a cat.. dog had rather chase the cat then have a cookie.. do you now have the motivation to recall said dog while chasing the cat?.. 
or.. in the junk that I do.. at our upper levels.. while sending a dog on a blind (dog does not know where the duck is).. you are sending with whistle commands and arm signals.. on the way they pass downwind of a duck.. not the one that you are supposed to get.. do you have enough control from this method to override them?... 
just asking..


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## mblondetoo (Jan 9, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> haha! I don't like the sound either, at a class it makes me crazy... at home I don't mind.
> Beer, now that always sounds good. Enjoying a Hornsby's right now...


Homebrew here! greg's post made me do it!!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

> now ... lets suppose said dog, while on a walk, jumps a rabitt (rabbit?)... lets say it jumps a cat.. dog had rather chase the cat then have a cookie.. do you now have the motivation to recall said dog while chasing the cat?..


This is where a bunch of complicated things come into play. First, there is the reinforcement history. When you train a recall properly with clicker training, the dog has received literally thousands of reinforcements for coming. So while the dog likes chasing a rabbit more than one treat, if your reinforcement history is strong enough the dog will still come because the thousands of treats outweigh the rabbit.

There is also the Premack principle. Basically it means that the dog has to give you what you want before they get what they want. So once you have a really strong reinforcement history without rabbits, you take your dog to a field that has a bunch of rabbits, you have them on a 6' leash and a long line at first, you call them, click when they come, remove the leash, and let them go chase rabbits.Then after a while you reel them in, put the leash back on, and repeat. Gradually you can make the leash longer and/or lighter until they are only dragging a long line. If they don't come, you reel them in if necessary and go home and do more reinforcing of the recall without rabbits, then spend more time with the 6' leash and at each step of fading the leash. Once you've paired the response to the Come command with getting to chase rabbits, your Come command will be VERY reliable with rabbits nearby.

But you can't let your dog off-leash to chase cats as a reward, I know. When you were training the Come command, you would practice it with cats as a distraction. Hopefully you have a friend with a cat, or have a cat yourself. starting with the dog on a 6' leash and a cat 50' away (you'd have to somehow tie the cat to something), then moving the cat closer, then the cat back to 50' away and going to a 10' long line, then moving the cat closer again, etc. Take it slowly and your dog will eventually come from 50' away with a cat right in his way.

There is also Doggy Zen http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ DOGS/Levels/LevelBehaviours/TL26Zen.html While it usually is only used with treats, dogs who have done a lot of Zen stuff apply the attitude to everything. If they see something they want, they leave it alone in hopes of getting it.



> or.. in the junk that I do.. at our upper levels.. while sending a dog on a blind (dog does not know where the duck is).. you are sending with whistle commands and arm signals.. on the way they pass downwind of a duck.. not the one that you are supposed to get.. do you have enough control from this method to override them?...


I don't know much about field training, but I'm assuming it would be okay to use a Sit whistle to stop the dog and then re-direct them to where the correct duck is? If you had enough reinforcement history for the sit, and had practiced it with a duck closer and closer until the dog will sit right near the duck, I think your dog would respond to the whistle. Now I obviously don't know that for sure because I've never done field training, but when I can get another dog I plan to try it, I'll let you know how it goes


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

When we are teaching stuff like this, it isn't all that much different.. I don't use the ecollar to nick them off the duck.. by this time, the dog is minding pretty well... we do it by attrition mainly.. a dog at this stage is not going to go get the wrong duck if you say no.. yes, you sit them down and say give them a back cast.. if they head over toward the wrong duck.. wistle..no..call them back to the original spot.. give them the back cast.. repeat until they do it right.."good girl"... 
when you are doing somthing like this, they already know the whistle sit and arm signals.. it now becomes a matter of teaching them to trust you more than their nose.. or eyes for that matter.. 
there are 3 deadly sins they will get nicked for.. not sitting on the whistle, not coming when called, and not going when sent.. 
later on with a more advanced dog (the one above would be considered a transition dog), you might nick them for taking a wrong cast.. but most people will not for one wrong move.. you must give the dog the benefit of the doubt.. maybe the background behind you was bad and she couldn't see you.. or any number of things.. you cannot just assume that the dog is simply blowing you off.. but all of it starts with basic obedience.. good basic obedience.. back (go), sit, here (come), heel... of course the sit and here commands are also used with whistles... 
If you want to see a good book(s) on training a field dog from the beginning to a finished level, there is a set of 2 books very very widely accepted by most all people in this game... Smartworks volumes I and II...by Evan Graham...Rush Creek Press.. (they have a web site).. You will be amazed at how much there is to it. 
A less expensive and less in depth book for those really not wanting to get into competition, but just want a good hunting dog is "the 10-minute retriever" by John and Amy Dahl.. you can get that one at Amazon.. 
I look forward to seeing you up claiming the trophy at the National Open some day.. and I want to see you doing it with a golden..


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Yeah I've been keeping an eye out for those books at barnes&noble.

Well I'm not sure if I'll ever do field trials to THAT level, but if I do, it won't be anything but a Golden!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Wow field training fascinates me. It looks so hard.

Isn't there a golden that they owners are trying to get a DC on? I think he has the bench Championship and is a *** but I wonder how he's doing in his quest for his FC. I think his call name is Sabre. Anybody know the dog that I mean?


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

the closet I know is a dog named "push".. he is up in canada and has a canadian field championship and some show points.. 
but I dont claim to know em all... and I dont know all the QAA dogs.. (that is ***).. so could be..


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

The sire of my first golden was a dual champion.. and to the best of my knowledge was the last one..back in the 70's... Tigathoes Funky Farquar.. "Quar"...


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

"Sabre" Am. CH. Amigold On A Wing N A Prayer CD MH WCX VCX DDHF*** He's almost 10 now, I don't think they're still trialing ... 

Push looks like a nice dog ...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Yup, that's the one... Sabre...

What is Push's "real" name?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

My first Golden was a field bred dog http://www.k9data.com/fivegen.asp?ID=80510 I loved him more than life!


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I will have to look it up... somthing push comes to shove.. oh..i think ..i think.. it may be a firemark dog.. firemark's push..... not sure..


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

if you look at the winners in the am and the open in last years golden specialty, he won either the am or the open..


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

Dixie:

http://www.k9data.com/fivegen.asp?ID=110943

Casey:

http://www.k9data.com/fivegen.asp?ID=74933


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Got pics?


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

FTCH AFTCH Firemark's Push Comes to Shove Am.*** http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=44966

I was really close to getting the pick female from this litter once http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=186661 sent in a deposit and everything, had some trouble booking her flight, could have easily gotten around it, but mom decided it was a "sign" and said I couldn't get the puppy ...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

That sucks! I want one  Help me find my dream puppy... oh yeah, and the cash!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Let me know when/if you're seriously looking for a puppy, I'll see what I can find


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I am seriously looking, though if I do decide to buy my dream puppy, I have to adopt out my foster. Whom I would LOVE to keep. Boy that's a tough choice. I tell myself if I am ever going to have the show dog I want I cannot keep every foster... and so far I have only kept seniors... but this one's young! lol


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Aww, that would be a bummer if you have to adopt out the foster.

http://www.coppertop.net/ is an excellent breeder.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I want a Push puppy! He rocks 

I want a show dog- I won't deny that. I want one dripping in coat and with tons of bone... but not to the point of insanity. Push bred to a show bitch would about make all my dreams come true lol


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I like this Push puppy... but the rest of them don't have enough hair for me lol


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I can't be having anything that doesn't have JET black pigment, either


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

www.amigold.com


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Late night dreams are fun, but Clara says, "what? I'm not your dream Golden?" lol awww... I really want to keep her. But even if I do I can still dream, right? Keeping her I could still get my dream puppy in two years... is that too soon to search? lol


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## goldencharm (Dec 26, 2005)

katieanddusty said:


> Well Greg you asked for it  I'm too lazy to type a bunch of stuff out so here's the link to the clicker page on my web site :wave:
> http://www.geocities.com/agilityretrievers/clicker.htm


Hey Katie, I want to read your website...but I can't because the color makes me feel like I might have a seizure.... 
Seriously, that is tough on the eyes. 
My Malachi is doing so well with the clicker. He has learned backward heel, food respect and can sit/stand/down and target all day and get it perfect.


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## goldencharm (Dec 26, 2005)

greg bell said:


> man..do u have the cliff's notes version?.. I just wanna know what it is all about.. that's all..
> and I really am against people abusing their dogs with a clicker.. lol....


The "cliff's notes" would be Peggy Tilman's book, _clicking with your dog_
Kaite recommended it to me and I use it all the time.It's succinct and super easy to follow.:wavey:


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Late night dreams are fun, but Clara says, "what? I'm not your dream Golden?" lol awww... I really want to keep her. But even if I do I can still dream, right? Keeping her I could still get my dream puppy in two years... is that too soon to search? lol


Are you kidding? I'm puppy searching and I won't be able to get my dream puppy for more than 10 years! 

Goldencharm you're absolutely right, I haven't looked at that in a while and the writing like glows :uhoh: I made it darker and it doesn't glow anymore ... Glad you and Malachi are doing so well with clicker!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Wow, why ten years????!!!!!!!! Goodness girl! well I have waited 11... so it's about time, huh? I'm so hot about Clara right now, though! I have visions of her being a star


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

2 years of high school, 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of either law school or PhD ...


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Wow... you know I could have done that, but instead I got a 2 year degree in divorce


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Wow... you know I could have done that, but instead I got a 2 year degree in divorce


And that's more expensive than school....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Nah I was nice lol, I didn't take anything but my two dogs and my clothes... and my collection of dog books. And we're good friends. But I know that's not always the case... !!


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

katieanddusty said:


> 2 years of high school, 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of either law school or PhD ...


And what's your dream dog?


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

RickGibbs said:


> And what's your dream dog?


good topic for a whole new thread


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