# Overly enthusiastic :-(



## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm sorry, I'm confused. What behavior is this for?


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I believe it's for recall. We do several exercises that center around tossing a treat and the dog running back to us.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I do not do that exercise, but had issues with the overexcitement for the treat after a down. Could not even get to the STAY, until I stopped using treats. Within a day of not using treats, she was able to do a three minute stay and longer 20 feet away.

I even find in the conformation ring, I have more control without a treat. Once I use a treat, it is all about the treat, even if she ate her supper an hour before.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Egggsss-actly! 

I have separated our practices into several times a day...only one exercise per practice. Otherwise he just keeps getting more and more fixated on treats. He'll work his heart out for Cheerios...which he inhales and gags on. I've changed to a softer treat, a beef roll, and cheese. He goes nuts!!!

I've also gotten to the point where I work only the exercises that are harder for him. Sitting on the platform was hard. He was not sure about getting "up"...2 inches off the ground and plenty big. So I spent a few days doing just the platform because he had everything else pretty well. Not sharp, but well.

At what point to you accept ONLY sharp and perfect? Which is going to be hard with him wiggling all over in anticipation. Seems like I'm defeating the very purpose we're doing. Can calm and obedient come out of frantic and wiggling?


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I took a video of another, more important exercise. I will upload it and see what you think. It's a platform sit in heel position. I make a lot of treat handling errors; suggestions would be welcomed.


----------



## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

What feedback has your instructor given you on these concerns? It seems like your dog may be ready to move onto the next steps for some of these exercises and/or may need easier variations for others.

In your first example - treat toss/down thing - I would experiment with giving him treats in the down position until he is steady and only then tossing one away. He loves the toss away - so teach him he has to be calm to be allowed to get it.

Even for excitable dogs, I like to teach them to be calm to receive food/etc... it's a great self control challenge for the dogs. I want them to be able to act calm and steady even if that's not how they feel. I think more about controlling the rewards and having the dog learn to control himself.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Our instructor says that at our level...first class beyond puppy kindergarten (although we've taken 2 classes elsewhere) that not much is expected. 

I like your suggestion about calm before next step. If he doesn't get a treat right away, he thinks he's wrong and offers another behavior...hoping to get to the one that gets the treat. It amounts to him popping up from downs, bouncing around, shifting his sit, etc.

I really have to talk to him and use some words...which supposedly we're not ready for but he is used to...in order to keep him calmer and focused on me. 

We have 2 more sessions in this class. There will be a 3 class gap between the next one and the last one because she will be out of town. How important is it to practice all the exercises covered in 6 weeks, on even a weekly basis. 

I am breaking it down to the hardest exercise along with a couple of not-so-hard but important exercises...stand to down, sit to stand with correct form and then a couple of static attention exercises. Maybe I should "invent" my own exercise which would be keeping him calm and waiting to be released to get the tossed treat. I'm assuming that while we follow a progression of exercises, one size does not fit all and there needs to be some creative or custom work done. Each dog is so different.

I have to admit, he's the live wire in the class. Always has been. There's a boxer that naps on his side during lectures. She runs 5k with him every day. There are 2 labs, mature but not senior, that lay down or sit quietly and work beautifully off leash as well as on, a Husky puppy who needs an alarm clock to wake up and is always nappiing. He's 7 months old. And then there's MY dog....eager, bright, interested in everyone and everything. Rarely is sitting or waiting; always looking around and ready to GET BUSY! He works well and did really well on find heel last week. Even with her squeaking a toy in his ear. He looked at her and then snapped right back to me...never broke stride.

I need practice on handling treats. Partially paralyzed right hand and painful trigger finger in my left hand. And I always forget my cue word (in place of the clicker). I tend to not talk to him when we're working. :-( I love the clicker but with the treats, the leash, my hands...so NOT going to happen. I'll click at home because I can just reach out for another couple of treats instead of having a handful in one hand and dispensing with the other.


----------



## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

I confess I don't understand the treat/toss to teach recall and it's not something that I've ever done. I also didn't use a clicker so can understand the challenge of juggling treats, clicker, etc. 

For recall, I'd tell them to wait (since started young, didn't worry if in sit/down), move away from them and say "come". Treat when sitting in front. Moved the distance and the challenge as they aged. EG. Wait in living room, me in back bedroom. Also did this outside in yard, or when playing hide/seek outside. This made the 6ft, 16ft, etc recall on leash super easy as the distance wasn't relevant to them. I did also use a whistle for recall too. Not sure if that answered your question or went off on a tangent.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

We "practice" recall on 10 acres, securely fenced. I put it in quotes because the activity is simply and off leash walk around the pastures. I will let him get as far as 200 feet from me and then call him. If he doesn't come immediately, I get down on one knee and he comes flying like a bullet. No treats involved.

Of course the day he decided to chase and flush the cranes, he wouldn't look at me or give up the chase for anything. They finally flew over the fence; he couldn't go any farther so he came back to me, otherwise, he'd still be chasing them. So I don't kid myself that we have a reliable out-in-the-open recall. 

Also, in the house, he comes when I call him. Again without treats.

See? This is what makes me think that if we don't REALLY NEED an exercise, I shouldn't practice it and gets his treat sensors so hyped up.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

btw, I'm enjoying hearing about the different ways to train. Things that "work" and things that don't. I don't believe any one trainer has cornered the market on how to train. 

Thank you for sharing what you are doing and what has worked or not.


----------



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm struggling with training a young active, high energy, food motivated dog myself and also feel challenged in the treat delivery area. I had a couple of thoughts. Using the clicker and juggling the leash and delivering treats can be a problem, so using a marker word (we use "yess") instead of the clicker helps. Keep the treat out of sight (I can't even have it in my hand) until you're ready to deliver it. I use my pockets, a bait bag gets too much attention. Have you tried using a toy instead of a treat.

I'm having a little trouble visualizing what you're doing with the treat toss. We do something similar to "build drive" and train the dog to come in fast on the recall. What we've done is call the dog; as they're coming in, turn and run away, tossing the treat out in front of you as you're running.

As far as practicing, I try to practice what we've done in class but work in short 10 min. sessions & not practice everything at once.

Our trainer has suggested if the dog is confused and offering various incorrect behaviors, give the dog a break and reset.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Can you put him in a down and count to five without him popping up? If not, I'd start there. As a separate exercise. Then work on him staying down with some extra body language from you (like pretending to throw a treat) but then actually reward him right between his legs. Once he is successfully holding the down put it back in the exercise, but sometimes throw the treat behind him and other times drop it between his legs.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Wow, super advice!!! 

I worked with him on a down at my feet. I was sitting on the couch. I fisted the treat for the down and gave the treat. I said "stay" and reinforced with my hand/finger. He popped up the first few times so I didn't throw the treat. Once he understood stay or no treat, I tossed it, made him wait and then released with "get it". I repeated a few more times.

Interesting that at one point he had to decide if he was coming back for the down or not...just stood there. After a few seconds he did and we played the game a couple more times.

This is great. He kept himself under control, he stayed focused on me and waited for the commands. AND he got tired...he was using his brain and making hard-for-him decisions.

I work with him for 2 to 10 miniutes. The cheerios are kept in a container on the table. I might work a couple of minutes of attention/eyes on me or a couple of front/sit. Or even a bit of heel as I walk past the table to the kitchen. When we're really working on something, I limit it to 10 minutes or so but might do it a couple of times during the day.

I have to be careful not to over do. I have a reputation with my horse of "one more times around, I almost got it that time." Learning when to quit is very important! LOL


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

And the aftermath. A tired puppy is a good puppy. He will be 15 months on Feb. 16.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I gave up on the clicker long ago. I am not coordinated enough, my timing is awful. I was wondering, if maybe clicking your tongue, like what you do for horses, might be easier.


----------



## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I was doing that for a while..saying click. I think I need to go back to that. We can use any word we want for the marker.


----------



## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

I think you have to do what works for you and most trainers have a tendency to only just use one method. The only things I use treats for is recall or because I feel like. If we're learning something new I might use treats but since Murphy listens quite well, he's easier to train without treats. Like the other post, I have a tendency to use marker words - yes, good, etc rather than clicker or treats. 

EG. I had lent my crate to someone for what was supposed to be a week or two and turned into months, so I have resorted to cheese to make sure Murphy stays comfortable with going in the crate. Little stinker is so long, he can stretch all the way to the back to get treat without going in so it's been a fun week as treat games don't work as well as at 7mths.


----------

