# Anyone know about Galaxy Goldens in Atlanta GA



## cheerio

I live in GA, and try to find a breeder that sell English Golden puppies, and I found Galaxy Goldens online
,Galaxy Goldens - Atlanta Golden Retriever Breeders of Stunning English Creams

Does anyone know about them? or a scam?
Thanks


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## Rainheart

At first glance, they use 'English Cream' and 'Almost white' as describing their dogs, so that in itself is a red-flag. 

I don't see that any of their dogs are actually titled, either. I personally wouldn't buy from this breeder, but I am also pretty new at this. I am sure others will come and pitch in to help you.


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## jackie_hubert

Not someone I would get a dog from personally.

Check out English Goldens in North America - Litters - Breeders - Stud Dogs for referrals.


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## Pilgrim

Sire - Orion, born in 2008, is only listed with preliminary hips - and nothing on OFA for either elbows or hips. Cerf (2009) and heart are listed.Quite a few "fairs" in the lineage for hips.

"Angel" - from 2008, same Cerf and heart clearances, no hips, no elbows on OFA, listed with Pennhip on K9data but only prelims listed on the Galaxy website - 

"China" - from 2008, does not show up by name on OFA or on K9data. From registration number, via OFA, only cardiac is listed.

"Belle" - from 2005, heart and CERF only on OFA. K9data lists Pennhip. 

"Jaycee" - from 2006, CERF and Cardiac on OFA, Pennhip (80%) on K9data.

This last hip score is the only one given (and K9nine is entered by the owner) that has an actual score. These observations are not aligned with the clearance claims on the Galaxy website. I wouldn't buy without seeing certified copies of all missing certifications - including the Pennhips.

I am bothered that none of the litters have the names of the sire and dam. It's sort of hard to trace the lineage without this information. It sounds like you need to talk with the breeder if you are interested in the puppies but do not commit until you've seen bona fide clearances and asked your questions here.


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## cheerio

thanks for your replay.
I am very new to this field, and not very know how to read all those clearances info.
I found Tanglewood Goldens -- Golden Retrievers of English Distinction under GRCA website,
and they have Annie and Gucci litter for the coming fall
*Stoneledge Tanglewood Achy Breaky 
Heart 
**"Annie"

*Sire: Can CH Cedar's Blue Xmas At Stoneledge CCA
Dam: Woodriver Stoneledge Free Ryde
DOB: 2-15-09
Breeder: Louise Guy
Owner: Joanne Cava and Louise Guy
k9data# 336478
Hips: GR 102621G24F-VPI Good
Elbows: GR-E23811F24-VPI Normal
Heart Clearance: GR-CA17565/12F/P-VPI
Eye Clearance: GR-43380/2010-21


Call name:"Gucci"Gender:MHonorifics:BIS2 Puppy, CAJC, CAC, BOB, CACIBCountry of origin:OtherRegistration:FCIBreeder:Ing. Eva Sikova, SKOwner:Louise J GuyWeb site:http://www.simplesite.com/stoneledgeHip clearance:A/A (2009)Elbow clearance:0/0
How's this litter?


Thanks


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## jackie_hubert

Tanglefoot is highly regarded by many forum members. If you run a search you'll find threads about Tanglewood.


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## kdel

*confused*



cheerio said:


> thanks for your replay.
> I am very new to this field, and not very know how to read all those clearances info.
> I found Tanglewood Goldens -- Golden Retrievers of English Distinction under GRCA website,
> and they have Annie and Gucci litter for the coming fall
> *Stoneledge Tanglewood Achy Breaky *
> *Heart *
> *"Annie"*
> 
> Sire: Can CH Cedar's Blue Xmas At Stoneledge CCA
> Dam: Woodriver Stoneledge Free Ryde
> DOB: 2-15-09
> Breeder: Louise Guy
> Owner: Joanne Cava and Louise Guy
> k9data# 336478
> Hips: GR 102621G24F-VPI Good
> Elbows: GR-E23811F24-VPI Normal
> Heart Clearance: GR-CA17565/12F/P-VPI
> Eye Clearance: GR-43380/2010-21
> 
> 
> Call name:"Gucci"Gender:MHonorifics:BIS2 Puppy, CAJC, CAC, BOB, CACIBCountry of origin:OtherRegistration:FCIBreeder:Ing. Eva Sikova, SKOwner:Louise J GuyWeb site:http://www.simplesite.com/stoneledgeHip clearance:A/A (2009)Elbow clearance:0/0
> How's this litter?
> 
> 
> Thanks


Hi, sorry to but in here but I was also looking at this breeder and I'm confused. I am new to this also and have been trying to learn about clearances - I thought I read (now I could be very wrong here) That an F in a clearance number is not good? Also there is no "C" in the heart clearance number so does that mean it was not done by a cardiologist?


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## Pilgrim

Go to http://www.offa.com http://www.offa.org/index.html and enter the name of the dog (no titles here) or the OFA number and you can see the actual rating of the hip clearance. That last letter (F, C, M, etc.) is not apparently related to the actual hip rating. I found a dog with an "F" at the end of its numbers who was rated "Good." Also, k9data is not always correct as it is owner entered information. Unless the hips are FCI-rated (or Pennhip) the OFA will have the actual tests entered. Sometimes a dog has a bad rating and the owner has the ability to keep those scores from being published by OFA and, of course, some owners regrettably choose not to have their dogs certified.

I've read wonderful things about Tanglewood. I checked out the dam of this litter and she looks great! I could only find European data for the sire. Even with all of these numbers, you need to talk with the breeder asking all of your questions - and answering all of the questions the breeder will have for you. Clearances are very important but temperament, athleticism, overall health, intelligence and so on are of interest too. Do you choose the puppy or does the breeder? (I would want the breeder's guidance.)

I'm no expert but having recently figured out how to do this, I am sharing what I know!


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## Tahnee GR

"F" in an OFA hip clearance stands for Fair, a passing rating, which means there are no signs of DJD, degenerative joint disease, present. It is a perfectly acceptable rating for breeding, although one would typically not breed Fair to Fair, at least not without knowing the hip history behind both dogs. A Fair from a history of Goods and Excellents is probably a better bet for breeding than a Good from a history of Borderline and Fairs. There are very few absolutes in breeding. At the end of the rating, F or M stands for Female or Male, and the number (24, for example, is the age in months at the time of the clearance).

You are correct that for heart clearances, you want a Cardiologist (C) or a Specialist (S), not a Practitioner (P). Practitioner is a regular vet, and they do not have the training or experience in heart issues that cardiologist and specialists do.


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## samfan

*Galaxy Goldens Atlanta*

I would love to respond to your request on Galaxy Goldens. We got our Sam from them just over two years ago, and he is the best dog I have ever known. 
We had an American bred golden, also an excellent dog, for eleven years and waited three years after he died of hemangiosarcoma before thinking of getting another. My husband did a lot of research and we decided to go with the English this time because, yes, they do have a 50% less chance of developing cancer than the Americans and yes, their temperment is more laid back. They are a stockier dog with a bigger headpiece and more level back than the AKC standard. 

I truly wish people wouldn't respond to something when they don't have the facts. Yes, it is true that some breeders have latched on to the current English Cream popularity and try to pass their dogs off as superior because they are "white". Galaxy's dogs are superior because they have done their homework, breed their dogs carefully with only the best bloodlines, have had all the screenings (i.e. hips, heart and eyes) to avoid genetic defects, and socialize their puppies well. They are superior dogs, and I do not hesitate to recommend them To learn more about the differences between American and English goldens, you might check out www.recherchegoldens.com website.


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## LibertyME

hmmmyeah... recherche goldens has made a spalsh on the forum before...not many were impressed with them either...

recherche = research in French.

I would suggest anyone 'recherche' & exercise due diligence when looking at either breeder.


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## LibertyME

You may not realize that before anyone even needs talk to a breeder...there are publicly verifiable databases that ethical breeders use to document the clearnaces and it is no problem to verify AKC conformation titles of dogs.
It is a great way to weed out bad breeders quickly...


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## LibertyME

http://www.grca.org/pdf/education/AKC_BreedStandardforGRCAStudyGuide09.pdf

I think you will find that GRCA & AKC appreciate a strong level topline...Im not sure how there can be a 'more level' topline.



samfan said:


> more level back than the AKC standard.


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## nolefan

Here we go again....


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## Shalva

samfan said:


> they do have a 50% less chance of developing cancer than the Americans and yes, their temperment is more laid back. They are a stockier dog with a bigger headpiece and more level back than the AKC standard.


Ok first... I just went and checked out every pedigree... there is not one dog there that I would want a puppy from. While there are nice dogs in the fifth gen on several of them... those are old dogs and are in most european pedigrees. I am not impressed with breeders who stake their claim to English dogs with a bunch of dogs imported from Eastern Europe where the championships aren't worth much. 

Then lets move on to the quote above... the majority of what is stated there is incorrect. First with imported dogs they don't check hearts, which means we don't know hte heart issues that exist except that I know of breeders who have gotten pups with SAS out of european lines... heads are different... blockier yes and different than American type heads but level backs oh please some have level toplines and some don't..the akc and GRCA both call for a level topline so to say their toplines are more level is just blatantly false . and don't even get me started on the cancer statement as that it totally untrue. English dogs get cancer at the same rate as other goldens. 

There are reasons that someone might prefer an English style dog but the reasons stated above just are incorrect. 

I would not go to Galaxy Goldens. I was not impressed with the structure of their dogs... I was not impressed with the pedigrees of their dogs. I was not impressed with the lack of clearances of their dogs. There are plenty of responsible breeders of English style dogs... that would not be one of them. 

The poster states that she wishes people wouldn't talk about things they don't know about... and I honestly wish the same thing... i am glad they are happy with their dog... but I think they ought to take their own advice 

just my two cents as a RESPONSIBLE breeder of English style dogs 
Shalva


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## AmbikaGR

samfan said:


> I would love to respond to your request on Galaxy Goldens. We got our Sam from them just over two years ago, and he is the best dog I have ever known.
> We had an American bred golden, also an excellent dog, for eleven years and waited three years after he died of hemangiosarcoma before thinking of getting another. My husband did a lot of research and we decided to go with the English this time because, yes, they do have a 50% less chance of developing cancer than the Americans and yes, their temperment is more laid back. They are a stockier dog with a bigger headpiece and more level back than the AKC standard.
> 
> I truly wish people wouldn't respond to something when they don't have the facts. Yes, it is true that some breeders have latched on to the current English Cream popularity and try to pass their dogs off as superior because they are "white". Galaxy's dogs are superior because they have done their homework, breed their dogs carefully with only the best bloodlines, have had all the screenings (i.e. hips, heart and eyes) to avoid genetic defects, and socialize their puppies well. They are superior dogs, and I do not hesitate to recommend them To learn more about the differences between American and English goldens, you might check out www.recherchegoldens.com website.



Sorry but you need to get your facts straight or at least educate yourself as to what responsible breeding is about. Both Galaxy and Recherch lerave a LOT to be desired and little to be admired.


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## nolefan

"English goldens have been rigorously tested for multiple generations to weed out dogs with higher genetic tendencies toward problems chronic to the golden retriever breed such as hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia. The result is the English lines should have a lower incidence of these health problems."

Direct quote from Galaxy Goldens website.... How odd that they appear to be misleading potential buyers with this malarkey when they don't have all the clearances finished on their own breeding stock and the only dog of the previous generations to have all 4 clearances listed on k9 data or OFA was bred at 1 year. (With parentage coming from Slovenia and Croatia, I find it difficult to believe they were concerned with health clearances for dogs. Although considering that the region was bogged down in ethnic cleansing and war I guess it makes record keeping tough.)

Not one dog on that website has had an eye clearance done in a couple years. 

China and Angel both had litters sired by Hercules and whelped before either bitch was age 2. 

Hercules' photo doesn't appear on the website anymore. But his litter brother, Orion, does appear. Both dogs show hip and elbow OFA prelims listed on k9 data, but neither Hips or elbow clearance shows up on OFA website for either dog. (Question: Do prelims for hips and elbows get the same number? Orion lists both under 1371888 and Hercules lists both under 1371890. Why don't they have separate numbers?)

Belle has OFA prelims on her elbows listed on k9 data but not listed on OFA. Her hips are Penn Hip.

Jaycee has no elbow clearance to be found.

The whole thing is more of the same marketing, "Pay us a fortune for a puppy who's parents have never stepped foot in a competition to prove themselves, because the grandparents have 6 world championships from an Eastern block communist country, never mind that they can't supply more than a handful of health clearances between them." These people should be ashamed of themselves. :no:


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## K9-Design

samfan said:


> My husband did a lot of research and we decided to go with the English this time because, yes, they do have a 50% less chance of developing cancer than the Americans.


#1 - SAYS WHO?!?!?!?!?! The people selling this "English goldens???" It is absolute hogwash and a very deceiving sales tactic. 

#2 - Guess what. Your golden was born in America. He's not English.


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## annef

I have looked at this website and feel that if you want 'english' breeding then you could do better than this. There are some reputable breeders and some very nice dogs in Croatia and Romania. Can't comment on other countries as I have not judged there. Look at the website recommended by the US breeders as they will be able to check the health tests for you. Many goldens in the US claimed to 'english' breeding are nothing of the sort, with no UK dogs for many generations!! If you decide to buy agolden of European lines then you may be able to check the health checks for Scandinavia in rasdata but dogs bred in the US should have the clearances for that country. Don't be fooled by a reduced level of cancer either- we have dogs that die of cancer although it can be different cancers to those in the US
Annef


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## tippykayak

samfan said:


> My husband did a lot of research and we decided to go with the English this time because, yes, they do have a 50% less chance of developing cancer than the Americans and yes, their temperment is more laid back.


This is one of many false health claims perpetuated by some unethical people who breed "English" Goldens. Typically the Goldens in these situations are actually sourced from Russia and Eastern Europe and are English _type_, not actually English. That health claim, if you're curious, is based on a simplistic comparison between an AKC survey and a survey of GR owners in England, done years apart. The comparison tells you nothing about the relative health risks. It just sounds good, so these breeders pass it around like it's fact because it helps them sell dogs.



samfan said:


> I truly wish people wouldn't respond to something when they don't have the facts.


Me too.



samfan said:


> Yes, it is true that some breeders have latched on to the current English Cream popularity and try to pass their dogs off as superior because they are "white". Galaxy's dogs are superior because they have done their homework, breed their dogs carefully with only the best bloodlines, have had all the screenings (i.e. hips, heart and eyes) to avoid genetic defects, and socialize their puppies well.


Funny that you bring up facts, since the gist of the thread thus far is that clearances were missing. Also, you left elbows out of the health clearance list.



samfan said:


> They are superior dogs, and I do not hesitate to recommend them To learn more about the differences between American and English goldens, you might check out www.recherchegoldens.com website.


Perhaps you might want to read about the problems that were discussed in this 2009 thread on Recherche:. The first couple of pages should tell you all you need to know. If you don't feel like doing the reading, I'll give you the rundown: lies about health, missing clearances, breeding underage dogs, you name it.


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## Sirfoulhook

Wow I think everyone was a little harsh. I think samfan is happy with Sam and that's the most important thing. Personally I don't buy any claims by anyone. I think the Galaxy dogs have preliminary clearances which I know aren't the same as a regular number but it is very rare that a dog will get a preliminary clearance and then fail later. I did read somewhere (can't remember where) English Goldens do have a lower incidence of cancer. I know it was not a breeder site. Of course statistics can certainly be manipulated and I don't put any stock in it. I'm just saying if they are happy with their dog that's awesome. I once got a Gordon setter from a preacher and he turned out to be the best hunting dog I've ever seen. I then got a Llewellyn Setter from *the* breeder in the Midwest and he is pretty worthless as a hunting dog. You just never know


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## Sally's Mom

Sirfoulhook, it is not very rare that a dog will get a prelim clearance and then fail later. Your statistics come from where? My second golden, Mandell Marlenes Celebration UD RA CGC was OFA cleared of everything at 24 months. Her hips were FAIR. When at 44 months, she developed a skip in her heeling, I re radiographed her. She was mildly dysplastic in one hip... So I called OFA and spoke to Dr. Keller... his comment to me was if a dog was going to become dysplastic, it was a golden cleared at 24 months with a FAIR rating. Going on that, if it is a FAIR prelim clearance where does that leave things??? And English Goldens do not have less incidence of cancer.. they just get different cancers....


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## Sally's Mom

Plenty of dogs have elbows that clear with prelims... but not as adults...


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## tippykayak

Sirfoulhook said:


> Personally I don't buy any claims by anyone.


I don't buy claims by breeders because of the obvious conflict of interest, but I buy hard science when it shows the ability to predict outcomes solidly, and that describes the science behind clearances.



Sirfoulhook said:


> I think the Galaxy dogs have preliminary clearances which I know aren't the same as a regular number but it is very rare that a dog will get a preliminary clearance and then fail later.


That's false. Dogs pass a prelim and fail a clearance a substantial percentage of the time, and the earlier the prelim is done, the less predictive it is. There's a very good reason that final clearances at 24 months are part of the GRCA's Code of Ethics.



Sirfoulhook said:


> I did read somewhere (can't remember where) English Goldens do have a lower incidence of cancer. I know it was not a breeder site. Of course statistics can certainly be manipulated and I don't put any stock in it.


Then why repeat the myth? We know where the myth comes from, and we know why the surveys involved don't prove it to be true.



Sirfoulhook said:


> You just never know


Which is exactly why you take all reasonable steps to increase the likelihood of a healthy, sound dog with proper temperament.


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## Dakotadog

The color advertising is a sign but doesn't mean you shouldn't get a pup from Galaxy Goldens. The other marker is not all the dogs have cleared elbows and hips cleared. However I thought this statement in the FAQ was nice. 

"In the event that a genetic problem crops up, like hip dysplasia, most guarantees simply offer a replacement puppy. We do offer that but also another important option because we consider ourselves partners with your family in your quest for joy. Most of our families are so attached to their adopted baby that they would never dream ‘trading him in for a new model’. The second, alternative option, is we will pay up to half of your original purchase price toward remedial surgery."

I think that you could be okay choosing from this breeder. Just be careful and ask lots and lots of questions as well as doing more research on both this breeder and others. 
Good Luck!!!


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## Sally's Mom

Dakotadog, What?


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## Sally's Mom

This breeder would refund the whole purchase price with a problem....


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## LibertyME

Please tell me you were you being sarcastic <see bold>?
Why not do all clearances, breed at an appropriate age, have conformation confirmed by an independent source....why not stack the deck in favor of the puppy before it is born...why not make every effort possible to save the puppy from one day of pain and save your 'partners in the quest of joy' the 7-10 thousand dollars to repair damage that could have been prevented..:doh::doh::doh:





Dakotadog said:


> The color advertising is a sign but doesn't mean you shouldn't get a pup from Galaxy Goldens. The other marker is not all the dogs have cleared elbows and hips cleared. *However I thought this statement in the FAQ was nice. *
> 
> "In the event that a genetic problem crops up, like hip dysplasia, most guarantees simply offer a replacement puppy. We do offer that but also another important option because we consider ourselves partners with your family in your quest for joy. Most of our families are so attached to their adopted baby that they would never dream ‘trading him in for a new model’. The second, alternative option, is we will pay up to half of your original purchase price toward remedial surgery."
> 
> I think that you could be okay choosing from this breeder. Just be careful and ask lots and lots of questions as well as doing more research on both this breeder and others.
> Good Luck!!!


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## AmbikaGR

Sirfoulhook said:


> Wow I think everyone was a little harsh. I think samfan is happy with Sam and that's the most important thing.


You may be right and of course that is the important thing. However Samfan came here telling many that they did not have their facts straight and then went on to spew their propaganda.



Sirfoulhook said:


> I think the Galaxy dogs have preliminary clearances which I know aren't the same as a regular number but it is very rare that a dog will get a preliminary clearance and then fail later.


Two of Galaxy's dogs have prelims on hips with no elbows, one has finals and the rest have no hip or elbow in the OFA database. As for the very rare occurrence of dogs passing prelims and then failing finals the below is from the OFA website.

_"A recent publication* compared the reliability of the preliminary evaluation hip grade phenotype with the 2 year old evaluation in dogs and there was 100% reliability for a preliminary grade of excellent being normal at 2 years of age (excellent, good, or fair). There was 97.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of good being normal at 2 years of age, and 76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age. Reliability of preliminary evaluations increased as age at the time of preliminary evaluation increased, regardless of whether dogs received a preliminary evaluation of normal hip conformation or HD. For normal hip conformations, the reliability was 89.6% at 3-6 months, 93.8% at 7-12 months, and 95.2% at 13-18 months. These results suggest that preliminary evaluations of hip joint status in dogs are generally reliable. However, dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)."

_


Sirfoulhook said:


> I did read somewhere (can't remember where) English Goldens do have a lower incidence of cancer. I know it was not a breeder site. Of course statistics can certainly be manipulated and I don't put any stock in it.


And I read somewhere that there is intelligent life on Mars but I do not remember where. Does that make it true? If you want to convince folks of the legitimacy of your claim please find the scientific proof/research that substantiates these claims.


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## hvgoldens4

Sirfoulhook said:


> Wow I think everyone was a little harsh. I think samfan is happy with Sam and that's the most important thing. Personally I don't buy any claims by anyone. I think the Galaxy dogs have preliminary clearances which I know aren't the same as a regular number but it is very rare that a dog will get a preliminary clearance and then fail later. I did read somewhere (can't remember where) English Goldens do have a lower incidence of cancer. I know it was not a breeder site. Of course statistics can certainly be manipulated and I don't put any stock in it. I'm just saying if they are happy with their dog that's awesome. I once got a Gordon setter from a preacher and he turned out to be the best hunting dog I've ever seen. I then got a Llewellyn Setter from *the* breeder in the Midwest and he is pretty worthless as a hunting dog. You just never know


 
The only dog that is "guaranteed" a hip clearance from the OFA at 2 years old, is a dog that they rated as excellent on their prelims and that is only for a passing grade. Every other rating will have some fail at 2 years old. A dear friend just took one of her girls in to have her OFA finals done. She had gotten a "good" at about 7-8 months old. Her hips will NOT pass-there is some remodeling going on. This is not the only case that I know of this happening. Another friend just had her dogs elbows fail and they were "normal" from the OFA on a prelim. Because the joints can and do change, the OFA will not give a final reading until the dog is over the age of 2 and also why the GRCA recommends that these evaluations be done on any dog being bred.

As far as English dogs living longer, the only place that I have seen these claims have been on English breeder websites and many of the dogs that these people have are not from England-they are from Russia, Sweden, Romania, etc.

A dog's lifespan comes from its parents, grand-parents, etc. Our Bailey was 15 years old in December, which is wonderful. Her mother was almost 15 when she passed and she also has a male littermate still alive. Her first litter is 12.5 years old. Does this mean that all of Bailey's offspring will live this long?? NO!!!!!! You need to check the date of death of the parents, grand-parents, etc to try to stack the deck in your favor of getting a puppy that will live a long life. I like to use this analogy.....if you want to live to be 100 years old, the chances of that happening are slim to none, if both your parents died in their 50's. However, if your parents both lived into their 90's, you would have a much better statistical chance of living to be 100. There are many environmental causes of cancer and these things cannot be overlooked. 

Breeders breed for themselves and to have their next generation of dogs. Do you really think that a breeder in another country is going to send one of their best dogs here to the states to someone they don't even know, have never been to their homes and only know that this person has told them?? I don't know any breeders here in the USA that would send their best dogs overseas and I can't believe the converse wouldn't be true.


Yes, some of getting a puppy will be a gamble but by doing research and making sure that clearances are done and checking the ages of parents, grand-parents, etc, you can certainly stack the deck in your favor in getting a healthy puppy that will live a long life.


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## Sirfoulhook

Somehow I knew I was going to have to don my asbestos suit when I put in my $.02. Let me say again, I thought everyone was being harsh. I know samfan went out on a limb but the responses were a bit much. I recognize puffery and I don't believe it. It is sales talk. Just because someone uses it doesn't make them a bad person. Bottom line, the breeder has a guarantee on the hips and elbows. They offer a replacement pup or 1/2 the amount of corrective surgery. That's as good as I've ever gotten from a breeder. Most just offer replacement pups. Just to let you know, I'm with you in the camp of increasing your odds. I would have a lot of questions and if they weren't answered to my satisfaction I'd walk. I like to see excellent or good in the parents on the OFA rating (final). I'm sure the vast majority of people who buy a pup from Galaxy are very satisfied with their pup. I just don't like people ganging up on others. I'll make sure I keep my suit on


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## Sally's Mom

I think you are missing the point, when you breed dogs without clearances (hip/elbow) you increase the probability that the pups will have dysplasia... I can tell you from first hand experience that you can breed two dogs with all four clearances and more than 5 generations of such...and still have pups with problems... I have had 3 situations when a problem arose and the entire purchase price was refunded and everyone was and still is happy.


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## Sally's Mom

No one is attacking that the puppy is someone's very much loved pet.


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## tippykayak

Would you rather play a casino game where the odds are 8 in 10 that you'll win or 9 in 10 that you'll win? Remember that you'll gambling your money and the health of a beloved dog.


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## tippykayak

Sirfoulhook said:


> Let me say again, I thought everyone was being harsh. I know samfan went out on a limb but the responses were a bit much.


Perhaps the responses were harsh, but we take it pretty seriously when somebody repeats a falsehood that a breeder is at a lower risk for serious health problems when the breeder is actually at a far higher risk. For me, there's a real dog at stake when these claims are believed. People pay their money to one of these breeders making false claims about health, and that family and their dog is at a much higher risk of heartache, suffering, and financial trouble. And then the breeder, because it worked, turns around and breeds another high risk litter.

So yeah, I can be harsh. I try to moderate myself a bit, since I think we stand a higher chance of convincing people if we refrain from insulting them, but I have no problem using strong language to condemn false health claims, and the "English types are at lower cancer risk" is truly misleading and allows unethical folks to sell higher risk dogs under the deception that they're lower risk dogs.



Sirfoulhook said:


> I recognize puffery and I don't believe it. It is sales talk. Just because someone uses it doesn't make them a bad person.


I don't recall judging the breeder as a good or bad person. I can't see into their hearts. I can judge the claim as false, unethical, and misleading, because you can see all three of those qualities in the claim itself without needing to see into the individual's character. I have no idea what your motivation is to defend an individual's right to lie. Certainly they have the legal right to make their claims; they do not have the moral or ethical right, and I do not see why you would defend them.



Sirfoulhook said:


> Bottom line, the breeder has a guarantee on the hips and elbows. They offer a replacement pup or 1/2 the amount of corrective surgery. That's as good as I've ever gotten from a breeder. Most just offer replacement pups.


Yes, it's a better guarantee than many terrible breeders have. But having half the bill paid doesn't (or half the cost of the dog refunded, whichever it is) doesn't do anything for the dog. He has no idea what the bills are. He just knows he can't walk without pain.



Sirfoulhook said:


> I just don't like people ganging up on others.


Me neither, but as long as people are going to play fast and loose with dogs' health, they're going to take some heat from us. I think that's a better situation than allowing these breeders to skip clearances and claim what they like on their own websites with nobody to point out where they're lying and cutting corners.


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## Shalva

I am glad that they are happy with their dog and this is a common misperception... simply criticizing the breeder is not a critique of their dog. i for one am glad that they love their dog... but they chose to come here, perpetuate falsehoods and irresponsible breeder propaganda. When these falsehoods are perpetuated it makes it seem like ALL breeders of this style of goldens are perpetuating these falsehoods and as such I am swiped with the same brush as these irresponsible breeders and that upsets me. I view it as my job as a responsible breeder of this type of dog to counter these blatant falsehoods. What really made me laugh about their posting was when they said that they wished people didn't talk about that which they didn't know... 

again I am glad that they love their dog... every dog deserves to be loved ... but when you come here and perpetuate falsehoods then we are going to step in.


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## Ljilly28

Sirfoulhook said:


> I think the Galaxy dogs have preliminary clearances which I know aren't the same as a regular number but it is very rare that a dog will get a preliminary clearance and then fail later.


It is not at all rare. it happened to my dog.

There is nothing harsh about correcting erroneous claims that are drastically misleading and not responsible. It is often hard to put the good of the breed above personal desires, but it must be done. Anyone breeding without clearances is undoing the good work done by people who abide by ethical practices even when it hurts. 



samfan said:


> My husband did a lot of research and we decided to go with the English this time because, yes, they do have a 50% less chance of developing cancer than the Americans and yes, their temperment is more laid back. They are a stockier dog with a bigger headpiece and more level back than the AKC standard.


Research is only as quality as its sources. Can you back up any of these claims with objective, controlled studies from credible sources? English goldens are goldens from England. They have exactly the same cancer risk as goldens from the USA. Temperament, energy level, levelness of topline, and size of headpiece cannot be broadly generalized like that as a point of contrast.


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## Sally's Mom

Off topic, since not about Goldens, but I saw a "teacup" Pom yesterday that at nine weeks was at the smaller end of the standard for an adult Pom. So it made me goggle teacup poms, one of the sites for a breeder, spoke about the Internet troll that says bad things about breeders.... Needless to say the owner of the teacup Pom I saw got taken! The Internet troll part made me think of the people who come on to defend bad breeding practices... I really don't think the comments are directed to the owners of beloved pets.


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## Sirfoulhook

Sally's Mom said:


> I think you are missing the point, when you breed dogs without clearances (hip/elbow) you increase the probability that the pups will have dysplasia... I can tell you from first hand experience that you can breed two dogs with all four clearances and more than 5 generations of such...and still have pups with problems... I have had 3 situations when a problem arose and the entire purchase price was refunded and everyone was and still is happy.


I am not missing any point. I know that you decrease the odds but don't eliminate the chance of dysplasia if you get a pup from parents that are cleared by OFA or Pennhip. The breeder offers a refund or will pay for half of the surgery. I think that is a good guarantee. I don't know what else the breeder could do. If it were me I'd want the final number but a dog with a prelim screen of good will pass final 93.7 of the time, according to the numbers quoted earlier. I'm glad you "put your money where your mouth is" and I'm sure I would feel very comfortable buying a pup from you. All I am saying is that the breeder does the same. I am not equating you or them because I don't know either of you


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## nolefan

There is an abundance of scientific proof that following these guidelines will ultimately lead us in the right direction. Please quit defending the people who willfully and unconcionably break these rules. The people arguing on this forum for strictly following the guidelines are to be commended, not vilified. 


The GRCA has health rules in place that have been carefully thought out and are applied in an effort to protect the dogs, and the future of the breed (and as a result, also the puppy purchasers.) It seems that there is a never-ending line of people who want to argue on this forum that the long term goals of improving the health of future dogs isn't worth abiding by a strict set of rules. It is mind boggling to me that people can't see that the benefit is worthwhile. 

I have read other dog forums on the internet and seen first hand that the high standard set by the golden retriever breed clubs has really drawn the admiration and envy of aficionados of other breeds. The efforts made so far have ensured that the golden retriever has quite possibly the largest breed specific DNA data base in the U.S. The idea that testing doesn't make enough difference in reducing health problems is blatantly false. It is our best chance at erradicating these diseases in dogs. It is a slow process, but worth every effort. 


*"Prevention of Progressive Retinal Atrophy*

Although some hereditary eye diseases can be treated, it is much better to control these diseases and ultimately eradicate them by breeding from sound dogs. With this in mind, eye certification schemes for the control of hereditary eye diseases are to be recommended. Breeding animals are examined by a specialist veterinary ophthalmologist and certified free from hereditary eye diseases which affect their breed. This has lead to the reduction of hereditary eye diseases in some breeds, examples being cataracts in the Golden Retriever and Afghan Hound, and collie eye anomaly in the Shetland Sheepdog. " (GoPetsAmerica.com - dog diseases)

*From OFA :*
"In recent years, a number of DNA tests for specific diseases have been developed. These tests remain the "gold standard" since actual genotypic information is derived. Test results, their submission into a health database, and the applied use of the database can have significant results in reducing the prevalence of a disease. PRA in Irish Setters is an outstanding example. For years the Irish Setter Genetic Registry maintained statistics on test matings in order to identify carriers of the disease and eliminate them from the breeding pool. Their data assisted researchers in identifying the actual disease causing mutation and ultimately led to the development of a DNA test for PRA in the breed. As a result, testing along with applied use of the database has greatly improved the health of the breed." (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals)


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## LibertyME

Read their guarantee again...they will pay "up to" half of the original purchase price toward remedial surgery....in other words $975.00 or _maybe less_. 

$975.00 (or less) is a drop in the bucket....especially when most puppy buyers are not aware that elbow surgery can climb to 14,000 and hips are, what,around 10,000. 
And that is *if* your dog is a candidate for surgical correction...

Oh and if you can not afford to chip in the other $13,000 for corrective surgery on your pups elbows...well then, ya know all those lovely long hikes through the woods...romps through grassy fields...swimming at the lake...jumping in and out of the car for rides to the ice cream shop...plans to take agility classes that you were hoping/planning/longing to do with your "Galaxy Golden" - well you can kiss those goodbye. Because your dog is not going to be able to do those things painfree.




Sirfoulhook said:


> I am not missing any point. I know that you decrease the odds but don't eliminate the chance of dysplasia if you get a pup from parents that are cleared by OFA or Pennhip. *The breeder offers a refund or will pay for half of the surgery.* I think that is a good guarantee. I don't know what else the breeder could do. If it were me I'd want the final number but a dog with a prelim screen of good will pass final 93.7 of the time, according to the numbers quoted earlier. I'm glad you "put your money where your mouth is" and I'm sure I would feel very comfortable buying a pup from you. All I am saying is that the breeder does the same. I am not equating you or them because I don't know either of you


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## Sally's Mom

Actually, this breeder does not do the same as me. In all litters, all dogs that I have bred have at least 4 clearances and are bred to dogs with at least 4 clearances. All of my girls have been in the conformation ring, some are CGC's, and some are working on obedience titles. And except in one case, I have always bred my girls to an American or AM/Can Ch and some of those stud dogs have working titles. But it is not simply that parents are clear... you need to go back many generations...


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## Sirfoulhook

tippykayak said:


> I don't recall judging the breeder as a good or bad person. I can't see into their hearts. I can judge the claim as false, unethical, and misleading, because you can see all three of those qualities in the claim itself without needing to see into the individual's character. I have no idea what your motivation is to defend an individual's right to lie. Certainly they have the legal right to make their claims; they do not have the moral or ethical right, and I do not see why you would defend them.


What is the difference between legal right and moral or ethical right!?!



tippykayak said:


> Yes, it's a better guarantee than many terrible breeders have. But having half the bill paid doesn't (or half the cost of the dog refunded, whichever it is) doesn't do anything for the dog. He has no idea what the bills are. He just knows he can't walk without pain.


Come on. What are they supposed to do? I know the dog suffers. Everyone here would acknowledge that a puppy can have dysplasia, even from parents who had every health screening. Once again they offer a replacement or half the cost of surgery. Tell me, what guarantee do "good breeders" have. Is it better? What's clear is that you don't like Galaxy. Completely within your right.


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## ragtym

Sirfoulhook said:


> I am not missing any point. I know that you decrease the odds but don't eliminate the chance of dysplasia if you get a pup from parents that are cleared by OFA or Pennhip. The breeder offers a refund or will pay for half of the surgery. I think that is a good guarantee. I don't know what else the breeder could do. If it were me I'd want the final number but a dog with a prelim screen of good will pass final 93.7 of the time, according to the numbers quoted earlier. I'm glad you "put your money where your mouth is" and I'm sure I would feel very comfortable buying a pup from you. All I am saying is that the breeder does the same. I am not equating you or them because I don't know either of you


Small point - only Galaxy's stud dog is prelim good and there is no way to verify this. 2 of their bitches pages say prelim "Fair" - the rating that OFA says has a "76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age." and "...dogs that receive a preliminary evaluation of fair or mild hip joint conformation should be reevaluated at an older age (24 months)". Another bitches' page says Penn-hip "Very Good". Penn-hip doesn't rate hips like that - they assign a decimal number to each hip that rates laxity and they give owners a percentage that indicates where their dog rates among its penn-hip tested peers. A fourth bitches' page says simply "Penn-hip" with a Penn-hip application number.

Without seeing the actual paperwork from the OFA prelims or Penn-hip on these dogs, it is impossible to tell if any of her claims are true.

Galaxy Goldens also says this:


> We show you proof that we have done the 4 important and expensive health testings: hip, elbow, heart, and eyes (see the Canine Health Information Center’s required tests for breeding golden retrievers at Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information


Yet, not a single one of Galaxy's dogs has a CHIC number. This is because she HASN'T followed the breeding recommendations for CHIC which are:


> Dogs tested in accordance with the parent club established requirements, that have their results registered and made available in the public domain are issued CHIC numbers.


Her guarantee is admirable but in most cases I've seen, the breeder doesn't follow through with this part of it. Instead, they refuse to admit there is a problem with their breedings and they blame the owner of the puppy for _causing_ the puppies problem.


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## Sirfoulhook

nolefan said:


> There is an abundance of scientific proof that following these guidelines will ultimately lead us in the right direction. Please quit defending the people who willfully and unconcionably break these rules. The people arguing on this forum for strictly following the guidelines are to be commended, not vilified.




Well I wasn't really defending the breeders as much as I was objecting to the harsh tones used by someone who got a puppy from the breeder who was slandered in this forum. I think I'm done in here. I can defend anyone I choose to as can you. I see that unless you agree with the dogma you are asked to keep silent. No need for any disagreement here


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## golden_eclipse

"Come on. What are they supposed to do? I know the dog suffers. Everyone here would acknowledge that a puppy can have dysplasia, even from parents who had every health screening. "

Answer, they are supposed to be honest about the risk their puppies have and how significantly higher it is than those "1000 dollar well bred, "american"" Goldens are...Instead of claiming her dogs will be more healthy and live longer which is a lie......Also she *says* she will refund half the purchase price, honestly from all the lies, I have no doubt she wouldn't. There are a ton of breeders just like her offering guarantees that they never plan to follow through with. That is why knowing that a breeder has taken every step possible to ensure good health, conformation, work-ability and has a good reputation with breed enthusiast is your best bet at a puppy. Because even if you are unlucky and have a problem you have someone there for you....I really doubt this breeder would step up when needed. This breeder cuts corners in the beginning, is it logical to think she wouldn't follow through when there is no monetary benefit for doing so? 

When I started trying to educate those, I thought it wouldn't be hard....Its science there is proof...its all ethical and for the good of the breed..How could someone not see how these bad breeders lie and mislead to make money? Well I was wrong, its amazing how many people rationalize these poor breeding practices, because they liked the breeders personality or their puppy is cute..There is no doubt a bad breeder could have cute puppies and a good personality, but it doesn't change the fact that breeders like galaxy do an extreme dis-service to the breed as a whole, and the puppy buyers who end up with one of their puppies.


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## nolefan

Sirfoulhook said:


> Well I wasn't really defending the breeders as much as I was objecting to the harsh tones used by someone who got a puppy from the breeder who was slandered in this forum. I think I'm done in here. I can defend anyone I choose to as can you. I see that unless you agree with the dogma you are asked to keep silent. No need for any disagreement here


 
Sir,
Your statements have given every appearance of defending the breeders who do not follow the GRCA standards.


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## tippykayak

Sirfoulhook said:


> What is the difference between legal right and moral or ethical right!?!


Legal right means there's no statute under which they could be prosecuted for lying. Free speech protects your right to mislead in many cases. Moral right refers to whether you _should_. You shouldn't mislead your buyers, even if you're not technically breaking the law by doing so. 



Sirfoulhook said:


> Come on. What are they supposed to do? I know the dog suffers. Everyone here would acknowledge that a puppy can have dysplasia, even from parents who had every health screening. Once again they offer a replacement or half the cost of surgery. Tell me, what guarantee do "good breeders" have. Is it better? What's clear is that you don't like Galaxy. Completely within your right.


The guarantee a good breeder provides is that they've taken every reasonable precaution available to ensure the highest possible chance of a long, healthy life for the dog. Financial guarantees are nice, but a $1000 refund isn't worth as much as a 50% reduction in the risk of joint disease. It's not an issue of liking them. It's an issue of steering people away from funding breeders who produce high risk dogs and preventing the heartache that comes when a family unknowingly pays for a high risk dog. 

Again, I don't know what your motivation is to defend breeding practices that play fast and loose with dogs' health for profit. We're not at all dogmatic around here (check out our many disagreements), but nobody who's done much reading about clearances and health issues in GRs is going to defend breeding on prelims and not completing the big four clearances. The reason you're hearing such consistent agreement on this issue is that the idea of full, adult clearances is pretty much a no-brainer if you do your homework on it.


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## samfan

Shalva said:


> Ok first... I just went and checked out every pedigree... there is not one dog there that I would want a puppy from. While there are nice dogs in the fifth gen on several of them... those are old dogs and are in most european pedigrees. I am not impressed with breeders who stake their claim to English dogs with a bunch of dogs imported from Eastern Europe where the championships aren't worth much.
> 
> Then lets move on to the quote above... the majority of what is stated there is incorrect. First with imported dogs they don't check hearts, which means we don't know hte heart issues that exist except that I know of breeders who have gotten pups with SAS out of european lines... heads are different... blockier yes and different than American type heads but level backs oh please some have level toplines and some don't..the akc and GRCA both call for a level topline so to say their toplines are more level is just blatantly false . and don't even get me started on the cancer statement as that it totally untrue. English dogs get cancer at the same rate as other goldens.
> 
> There are reasons that someone might prefer an English style dog but the reasons stated above just are incorrect.
> 
> I would not go to Galaxy Goldens. I was not impressed with the structure of their dogs... I was not impressed with the pedigrees of their dogs. I was not impressed with the lack of clearances of their dogs. There are plenty of responsible breeders of English style dogs... that would not be one of them.
> 
> The poster states that she wishes people wouldn't talk about things they don't know about... and I honestly wish the same thing... i am glad they are happy with their dog... but I think they ought to take their own advice
> 
> just my two cents as a RESPONSIBLE breeder of English style dogs
> Shalva


I'm not a breeder, just someone who had a good experience with Galaxy and wanted to share it. By "facts" I meant the lack of facts before attacking Galaxy's comment on the light coats of their dogs. Don't understand the motive for negative comments about someone without negative facts to back them up. Our Sam was from Belle sired by Mack of Lucky Lady Farms with grandparents from Ireland, Norway and Sweden. We did see clearances on eyes, hips and elbows. Were looking for a healthy dog with good temperment and found one. Not saying there isn't a more perfectly engineering dog on the planet, but I've lived long enough to know there are no guarentees no matter how careful you are. Sam has the best temperment of any dog I've known and is a wonderful addition to our family. I didn't notice the inquirer asking if there were champions in the bloodline, just wanted to know if anyone had had an actual experience with Galaxy Goldens, so I wanted to share. 

Going to curl up by the fire with Sam now to lick my wounds, wipe the egg off my face and explain to him why no good deed goes unpunished. At the end of the day, you can argue statistics until you get tired of hearing yourself, and I'll still have a wonderful dog.


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## Sally's Mom

samfan, here is where you are missing the point of the whole thread. You came here defending the breeder's breeding practices saying you saw clearance. If it is hips and elbows, it is only a clearance if it is done by 24 months or older. Eyes must be cleared annually by an ophthalmologist. And I would put no weight in a practitioner heart clearance... my husband or I could clear our dogs, I chose to go to a cardiologist as recommended by the GRCA. Nobody disputes that you have a nice family pet that you love. Nobody disputes that he is a good dog. Most of us dispute defending breeding practices that seem substandard and not in alliance with the GRCA COE.


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## tippykayak

samfan said:


> Not saying there isn't a more perfectly engineering dog on the planet, but I've lived long enough to know there are no guarentees no matter how careful you are.


Why is this always the rationale for not doing clearances? It makes no sense. It's like saying that it doesn't matter if you put a seatbelt on your child, since there's no guarantee that it'll save the kid in the event of an accident. 



samfan said:


> Sam has the best temperment of any dog I've known and is a wonderful addition to our family.


I'm genuinely, sincerely glad that Sam is so awesome. I will never, ever root against a dog just to prove my point. I hope Sam lives a really long time with no medical issues whatsoever. Just remember that a good dog does not vindicate bad breeding practices and is not a reason to defend those practices. A good dog from a risky breeding is a lucky, happy outcome, not a demonstration that you don't need to breed carefully. My BYB dog as a kid had amazing Golden temperament was a true friend to me. He's the reason I love the breed. He also had to have shoulder surgery as a young dog (along with several littermates) and died when he was seven. My life is better for having known him, and I wouldn't trade that away, but my love for him certainly doesn't vindicate BYB breedings.



samfan said:


> At the end of the day, you can argue statistics until you get tired of hearing yourself, and I'll still have a wonderful dog.


First of all, as you've probably gathered so far, I always like hearing myself.  And I hope Sam never develops any of the problems that clearances are designed to minimize. Just please don't perpetuate the false rationale that because you cannot guarantee a perfectly healthy dog that you don't have to take every reasonable step to improve his odds.


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## AmbikaGR

samfan said:


> I'm not a breeder, just someone who had a good experience with Galaxy and wanted to share it. By "facts" I meant the lack of facts before attacking Galaxy's comment on the light coats of their dogs.




You want facts? Where are the "facts" to support your post below about cancer and temperament?? Because I have searched hard and low decades looking for that magical fix. Don't you think that all the top breeders in North America would be running to Europe to blend this into their lines if it were not true? The "facts" are it is NOT true. Simple as that. There are many threads on this forum with the very same discussions and knowledgeable and reputable people from Europe have stated they have very similar issues over there. Please remember just because you read something on the "world wide web" does not make it a fact. Galaxy does not have the "best bloodlines", they have not done the homework required to be a responsible breeder, do not do all of the basic health clearances recommended by the GRCA. I am THRILLED and TRULY HAPPY your dog is everything you hoped it would be. But I am sorry it was not by design on Galaxy's part, but by luck. Nothing more than luck.





samfan said:


> I would love to respond to your request on Galaxy Goldens. We got our Sam from them just over two years ago, and he is the best dog I have ever known.
> We had an American bred golden, also an excellent dog, for eleven years and waited three years after he died of hemangiosarcoma before thinking of getting another. My husband did a lot of research and we decided to go with the English this time because, yes, they do have a 50% less chance of developing cancer than the Americans and yes, their temperment is more laid back. They are a stockier dog with a bigger headpiece and more level back than the AKC standard.
> 
> I truly wish people wouldn't respond to something when they don't have the facts. Yes, it is true that some breeders have latched on to the current English Cream popularity and try to pass their dogs off as superior because they are "white". Galaxy's dogs are superior because they have done their homework, breed their dogs carefully with only the best bloodlines, have had all the screenings (i.e. hips, heart and eyes) to avoid genetic defects, and socialize their puppies well. They are superior dogs, and I do not hesitate to recommend them To learn more about the differences between American and English goldens, you might check out www.recherchegoldens.com website.







samfan said:


> explain to him why no good deed goes unpunished.


And I have many times asked why I continue to post in threads such as this because inevitably folks here like me always seem to be defending ourselves as if WE did something wrong. And then once in a while someone goes back here and "THANKS" us for preventing them from making a mistake and getting a dog from a breeder that is obviously less than reputable and responsible. That makes all the other punished deeds so very worth it. So I, as others here, will continue to fight the good fight and try to protect this breed we love so much. :wavey:


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## golden_eclipse

samfan said:


> I'm not a breeder, just someone who had a good experience with Galaxy and wanted to share it. By "facts" I meant the lack of facts before attacking Galaxy's comment on the light coats of their dogs. Don't understand the motive for negative comments about someone without negative facts to back them up. Our Sam was from Belle sired by Mack of Lucky Lady Farms with grandparents from Ireland, Norway and Sweden. We did see clearances on eyes, hips and elbows. Were looking for a healthy dog with good temperment and found one. Not saying there isn't a more perfectly engineering dog on the planet, but I've lived long enough to know there are no guarentees no matter how careful you are. Sam has the best temperment of any dog I've known and is a wonderful addition to our family. I didn't notice the inquirer asking if there were champions in the bloodline, just wanted to know if anyone had had an actual experience with Galaxy Goldens, so I wanted to share.
> 
> Going to curl up by the fire with Sam now to lick my wounds, wipe the egg off my face and explain to him why no good deed goes unpunished. At the end of the day, you can argue statistics until you get tired of hearing yourself, and I'll still have a wonderful dog.


If you stay here you will see this forum is not against "light" colored coats, this forum is simply for the betterment of the breed. And in the most quantitative way that would be to ensure breeding dogs have full and proper health clearances, BEFORE being bred. There are a number of breeders of English style that would be recommended by educated board members at a drop of a hat, because they follow the GRCA COE and are taking every step possible to minimize problems. 
Your breeder has not and there have been pages of facts to prove that. You had one good experience in which I am very happy for you. But if you know anything about statistics you know that you shouldn't base a conclusion on a sample size of one, especially without being educated on the manner. Again, I really like the seat belt analogy. You get in a car accident without wearing a seat belt, and you survive, are you never going to wear a seat belt again because clearly they are useless? 

Again everyone here is happy that your Sam is wonderful, but its always good to open your ears and mind to the idea that maybe for the betterment of the breed as a whole, breeders such as galaxy should operate a lot different. And maybe throwing $2k at them will only continue the problem. Especially when reputable breeders who have champions on every dog and all clearances going really far back, usually only charge $1200.


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## samfan

I responded to the inquirer about Galaxy Goldens because I had actual experience with them and got a great dog. I really can't understand all the negative conjecture about this breeder when none of you has had a personal experience with them nor negative evidence to support your disfavor.

I didn't explain what I meant by "getting facts straight" and can see how you misinterpreted me. I was addressing the negative conjecture about this breeder just because they mentioned their light coats. 

Not sure if you meant I was "spewing" my propaganda or Galaxy's. Haven't seen anything to convince me the cancer incidence is not lower. Heads are blockier. Disposition is more laid back. You can duke that out with the others. I'm not that anal about it. Had an "American" golden for eleven years from field champions (father on national level) and he was a great dog who died of cancer. Checked clearances for Sam and they were good. Temperament was what sold me on their dogs. 

Not sure why you need to use words like "spewing" and refer to intelligent life on Mars, unless you're just trying to demonstrate your "where the bitches rule" slogan.


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## HiTideGoldens

I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. They say their cancer rate is lower and because you haven't seen anything to prove it wrong that means it's true? That makes no logical sense. So I could say anything and because you have no evidence to the contrary you'll believe me? Holy cow.

I think Ambika hit the nail on the head with this:



> Where are the "facts" to support your post below about cancer and temperament?? Because I have searched hard and low decades looking for that magical fix. Don't you think that all the top breeders in North America would be running to Europe to blend this into their lines if it were not true? The "facts" are it is NOT true. Simple as that.


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## samfan

I appreciate your efforts to better the breed. I am around dogs all day in my work and there is no better breed. Because we did see good clearances on Sam's parents (father was from another breeder) I think Galaxy satistied that requirement. Not sure what's going on with them now, since that was two and a half years ago.


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## AmbikaGR

samfan said:


> Not sure why you need to use words like "spewing"


"Spew" - to send out a large amount. I felt that was accurately how I interpret the breeder's way of stating unproven and false claims (propaganda).



samfan said:


> refer to intelligent life on Mars,


Comment with regard to intelligent life on Mars was in response to the statement by Sirfoulhook *"I did read somewhere (can't remember where) English Goldens do have a lower incidence of cancer. I know it was not a breeder site. Of course statistics can certainly be manipulated and I don't put any stock in it."*



samfan said:


> unless you're just trying to demonstrate your "where the bitches rule" slogan.


No I am not. Bitches rule here as I am the only male with my wife and 3 Golden bitches. 

Again I will state I am THRILLED (honestly) that Sam is everything you want in a Golden. But that will never justify a breeder taking shortcuts and not being responsible in my eyes. As the saying goes - "The end does not justify the means".


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## samfan

Sorry, just because you say it's not true isn't enough to convince me that it's not. (Simple as that.) Does anyone out there actually have footnoted statistics to prove the cancer issue one way or another? My opinion on temperament is just based on my experience with goldens I've had and those I see coming in and out to the breeder where I work each day. Don't really see how statistics can be gathered on temperament.


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## samfan

Thank you. Your dogs are beautiful.


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## Megora

samfan said:


> Sorry, just because you say it's not true isn't enough to convince me that it's not. (Simple as that.) Does anyone out there actually have footnoted statistics to prove the cancer issue one way or another? My opinion on temperament is just based on my experience with goldens I've had and those I see coming in and out to the breeder where I work each day. Don't really see how statistics can be gathered on temperament.



You work for a breeder?


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## samfan

I would never imply that clearances are not necessary and, as I've said several times, we did see clearances on Sam's parents. You seem to be implying that clearances are not currentlly being done by Galaxy. I really can't speak to that, and haven't tried to.


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## samfan

Ooops! Guess I'm getting tired of this banter. I work at a store that caters to dogs and meant to say GROOMER. Sorry!


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## HiTideGoldens

samfan said:


> I would never imply that clearances are not necessary and, as I've said several times, we did see clearances on Sam's parents. You seem to be implying that clearances are not currentlly being done by Galaxy. I really can't speak to that, and haven't tried to.


You couldn't possibly have seen all clearances on Sam's parents if Belle is his dam. Here she is on the OFA website with no hip or elbow clearance. Even if they did PennHip, a PennHip number (which is on Galaxy's site) means nothing without knowing the results. And as said earlier in the thread, as I just saw this was discussed before, prelims are not clearances. They are prelims. It's not the same thing. Belle's OFA page: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals,

samfan, there are a lot of unscrupulous breeders who will take advantage of the general public by making outlandish claims about their dogs. Many people who have recently lost a dog to cancer are enticed by the claim that european lines are cancer free or have a lower incidence of cancer. Breeders on this board, from Europe, have said those claims are not true. Galaxy isn't the first breeder making false claims to be mentioned on this board and I doubt will be the last. There are forum members who vigorously defended their breeders only to realize that they were wrong. It doesn't mean you don't have a great dog that you love.


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## Ljilly28

samfan said:


> . At the end of the day, you can argue statistics until you get tired of hearing yourself, and I'll still have a wonderful dog.


Well, anecdotal evidence from one pet owner about one young dog simply tells lots less than solid statistics. I am sorry that is wounding. It is fine not to be impartial about your pet dog you adore. That is great! However, once you take the step of becoming a breeder and bringing puppies into the world, the statistics on how to give them the best chance of health do matter much more.
It takes sacrifice and strength to pull the plug on breeding a wonderful dog bc a clearance is not passed, but it must be done by someone with a larger sense of ethics. If you don't even get around to fully testing the dogs, then that to me is reckless disregard.


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## tippykayak

samfan said:


> I would never imply that clearances are not necessary and, as I've said several times, we did see clearances on Sam's parents. You seem to be implying that clearances are not currentlly being done by Galaxy. I really can't speak to that, and haven't tried to.


The full set of clearances is _not_ being done on all dogs, including on Sam's parents. A good deal of the thread is devoted to the discussion of incomplete clearances and the fact that some were done on a _preliminary_ basis (i.e., before the dog is 24 months old). That's what we've been trying to tell you. You are incorrect in this original claim:



samfan said:


> Galaxy's dogs are superior because they have done their homework, breed their dogs carefully with only the best bloodlines, have had all the screenings (i.e. hips, heart and eyes) to avoid genetic defects, and socialize their puppies well.


They have _not_ had all their screenings, and that includes Sam's parents. That is one of the main issues at play here. You may have been told that Sam's parents had complete clearances and shown some clearance information, and if you aren't familiar with the bare minimum clearances for a Golden and how to review them, it may have seemed like they were complete. But they were not complete, if the definition of "complete" is to comply with the bare minimum suggested by the CoE.


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## samfan

You're right. I do have a great dog that I love, and appreciate the efforts of everyone trying to lower the incidence genetic defects that break our hearts and put our wonderful dogs through pain and suffering. Thank you all for the education. Don't have anything useful to add, and wish you well.


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## tippykayak

samfan said:


> Does anyone out there actually have footnoted statistics to prove the cancer issue one way or another?


The claim that English Goldens have lower rates is based on a UK survey done years apart from a US survey. (Not English vs. American style, but rather UK vs. US). The people who sell light Goldens as "English Creams" or similar things (though the dogs are rarely from England) often cite it as their bogus proof of superior health. Furthermore, neither survey was done with the intent to control against one another, and both were on a few hundred dogs each, so they don't tell you anything comparative. And they're survey-based, so you have no control for who reported, what style of dog they actually had, and what role diagnostics played in the differences in rates.

All the other research on cancer in our breed, and it's extensive, has shown us that there's no increase or decrease in risk depending on whether your dog is English style or American style.


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## Shalva

I don't know of any studies that distinguish between english dogs and american dogs regarding cancer simply because the reality is that a golden is a golden is a golden and what we are looking at when we look at english dogs vs. american dogs is really style and has nothing to do wtih the actual genetics of the breed. The breed is the same... so its like doing a study that divides people by hair color or whether their hair is short or long. The other piece is to understand that all goldens at some point go back to the english dogs as the breed was developed in scotland so at what point do you decide that this dog here is an english dog and that dog is an american dog when there are common ancestors in all and again that has to do with the fact that a golden is a golden is a golden. This is also the reason that English dogs have no lower cancer rate than American "style" goldens because ultimately a golden is a golden is a golden... 

Now look, I breed "English" dogs responsibility... and I personally am very against a breed split. A golden is a golden is a golden and while there are certainly preferences that people might have regarding color or size or general look the fact is that my dogs are still just golden retrievers. They are not healthier or steadier than American dogs. There are things about their appearance that I like better but thats it and that is just my personal taste. 

It honestly infuriates me when breeders make false claims or line their pockets breeding irresponsibly because not only does it make the word "breeder" a dirty word in many circles but it harms the breed that I love and work hard to protect.


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## samfan

tippykayak said:


> The full set of clearances is _not_ being done on all dogs, including on Sam's parents. A good deal of the thread is devoted to the discussion of incomplete clearances and the fact that some were done on a _preliminary_ basis (i.e., before the dog is 24 months old). That's what we've been trying to tell you. You are incorrect in this original claim:
> 
> 
> 
> They have _not_ had all their screenings, and that includes Sam's parents. That is one of the main issues at play here. You may have been told that Sam's parents had complete clearances and shown some clearance information, and if you aren't familiar with the bare minimum clearances for a Golden and how to review them, it may have seemed like they were complete. But they were not complete, if the definition of "complete" is to comply with the bare minimum suggested by the CoE.


Sorry, could you just tell me where, again, you found evidence that both of my Sam's parents were not cleared? I was able, thanks to Goldenjackpuppy to see Belle's clearances, but don't know where you saw his father's. Coyuld you share that infornmation, please?


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## samfan

Please excuse the typos in previous message. Sprained thumb is interfering with my usual accuracy. Anyway, my husband and I were interested to see that you had actually seen the clearances (or lack thereof) on both of Sam's parents, and would like very much see what you saw. Thanks!


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## tippykayak

samfan said:


> Sorry, could you just tell me where, again, you found evidence that both of my Sam's parents were not cleared? I was able, thanks to Goldenjackpuppy to see Belle's clearances, but don't know where you saw his father's. Coyuld you share that infornmation, please?


I was referring to the fact that Belle has no elbow clearance (as GJ already pointed out). I hadn't yet checked myself, but I will now.

I see a practitioner heart clearance on Belle (GRCA suggests specialists for this, so that's not ideal). I also see an '08 CERF, which would make it out of date. You want to see CERFs done every year for the dog's life, since a couple of hereditary eye conditions can show up later in life, after a dog is done breeding, and you need the information in order to make decisions about the next generations (and so the dog's offsprings' owners can screen the dogs early for the diseases and lessen their impact). The actual CERF database appears to be down right now, so I can't see the full CERF listing, only what's cross-listed in OFA, so maybe there's stuff in the CERF one that shows the yearly tests the dog is supposed to have.

I don't have Sam's dad reg'd name or AKC number, so I can't check his. Would you like to me to? All we'd need is either an accurately spelled registered name or an AKC number. If it's Galaxy Orion (the only stud they have listed on their site), then he did not have full clearances at the time Sam's litter was bred. He may have had prelims, but his final OFAs were done last month, so he's clearly sired a number of litters without full clearances. His CERF is also out of date. Given that he appears to have sired two litters that are due in February (according to their site), he should not have a CERF exam that's pushing three years old.

If Sam's sire was another dog, I'd just need his name or AKC number to look things up.


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## Selli-Belle

Belle does not have complete clearances. On her K9data page, it list a prelim elbow number, but no final clearance so she has no elbow clearance.


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## Sally's Mom

For the record, didn't I address this earlier in the thread(post # 50) to samfan? Belle's pennhip is not verifiable, let alone what age it was done. She has no OFA elbow clearance(you have to be 24 months), she has a 12 month PRACTITIONER heart clearance, not good enough for me. And her last verifiable CERF was in 2008, which means that unless your dog was born in 2009, it is out of date.


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## samfan

tippykayak said:


> I was referring to the fact that Belle has no elbow clearance (as GJ already pointed out). I hadn't yet checked myself, but I will now.
> 
> I see a practitioner heart clearance on Belle (GRCA suggests specialists for this, so that's not ideal). I also see an '08 CERF, which would make it out of date. You want to see CERFs done every year for the dog's life, since a couple of hereditary eye conditions can show up later in life, after a dog is done breeding, and you need the information in order to make decisions about the next generations (and so the dog's offsprings' owners can screen the dogs early for the diseases and lessen their impact). The actual CERF database appears to be down right now, so I can't see the full CERF listing, only what's cross-listed in OFA, so maybe there's stuff in the CERF one that shows the yearly tests the dog is supposed to have.
> 
> I don't have Sam's dad reg'd name or AKC number, so I can't check his. Would you like to me to? All we'd need is either an accurately spelled registered name or an AKC number. If it's Galaxy Orion (the only stud they have listed on their site), then he did not have full clearances at the time Sam's litter was bred. He may have had prelims, but his final OFAs were done last month, so he's clearly sired a number of litters without full clearances. His CERF is also out of date. Given that he appears to have sired two litters that are due in February (according to their site), he should not have a CERF exam that's pushing three years old.
> 
> If Sam's sire was another dog, I'd just need his name or AKC number to look things up.


No, thanks. Guess I misunderstood. Thought since you said parent(s) that you must have information on both, which you obviously do not.


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## tippykayak

samfan said:


> No, thanks. Guess I misunderstood. Thought since you said parent(s) that you must have information on both, which you obviously do not.


So you don't know your dog's sire? But you're sure he had clearances? Didn't you get a puppy packet with that info?


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## Sally's Mom

Good point, Tippy.


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## samfan

Yes, of course I know who the sire was and did see, as I have said several times, his clearances. I'm just pointing out that you make the accusation in one breath that the breeder did not do proper clearances on both parents and then admit that you don't even know who the parents are in another. Is that really fair, to trash the reputation of another breeder so recklessly?

Look, I know you are well-intentioned, as are, I know the people at Galaxy Goldens. I just don't agree with the way you all jump on one another so quickly and without justification. You are not perfect. You make mistakes. Galaxy Goldens may have made mistakes by not following up the prelims with finals, but there is no negative evidence against them. I am sure they will follow-up and be more careful since I have passed this slanderous blog on to them. But, they are not a "scam", and it is wrong to imply that they are without solid evidence to back up your criticisms.


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## K9-Design

samfan said:


> You are not perfect. You make mistakes. Galaxy Goldens may have made mistakes by not following up the prelims with finals, but there is no negative evidence against them.


That is a very conscious, deliberate mistake on their part. 
That's like saying, "Well I bought this car and have a bill of sale but I never bothered to register it or get plates, so officer we all make mistakes, can you overlook this one?" Umm, no.
Not doing clearances before breeding is neither a mistake or an accident. It's an on-purpose.


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## HiTideGoldens

It's not slander if it's true. Belle does not have an elbow clearance. So...no, Sam's parents did not have all their clearances. You don't need to see both parents to know that they didn't have all their clearances. Again, not slander if it's true.


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## tippykayak

samfan said:


> Yes, of course I know who the sire was and did see, as I have said several times, his clearances. I'm just pointing out that you make the accusation in one breath that the breeder did not do proper clearances on both parents and then admit that you don't even know who the parents are in another. Is that really fair, to trash the reputation of another breeder so recklessly?


I didn't say "both parents." I said the parents' clearances are incomplete. Since Belle is missing at least one and two others are not done according to the CoE, my statement needs no further evidence in order to be true. Even if the dad's clearances were complete, it's still true to say the parents' clearances are incomplete. I might point out that you claim complete clearances "in one breath" and then ask for help finding the sire's clearances in another (and for some reason are withholding this name that you claim to know). If it is Orion, his clearances were incomplete at the time of Sam's litter. If it's not, what's your reason for hiding it? No offense, but you originally said that all the clearances were complete, and you were wrong (since Bella's aren't), so you'll forgive us for wanting to confirm the sire's ourselves.

And I'm not trashing the breeder's reputation. My statement was true and is based on publicly verifiable information. I haven't called names, simply pointed out the gaps between Galaxy Golden's practices and the guidelines good breeders follow. I'm sorry that it wasn't harder to misread, but it was accurate. Also, to be clear, I'm not a breeder.



samfan said:


> Look, I know you are well-intentioned, as are, I know the people at Galaxy Goldens. I just don't agree with the way you all jump on one another so quickly and without justification. You are not perfect. You make mistakes. Galaxy Goldens may have made mistakes by not following up the prelims with finals, but there is no negative evidence against them. I am sure they will follow-up and be more careful since I have passed this slanderous blog on to them. But, they are not a "scam", and it is wrong to imply that they are without solid evidence to back up your criticisms.


Baloney. It's not a "mistake" to ignore such basic elements of your breed club's ethical guidelines. And if you know enough to get prelims, you certainly know enough to understand what "preliminary" means. Second, this isn't a blog. Third, it's libel, not slander, when it's written. Fourth, the truth cannot be libel, according to US law. Fifth, nobody called them a "scam." The OP _asks_ if they are, but nobody repeats the term.

However, if you were told that your dog's parents had complete clearances according to the guidelines set out in the CoE, then you were absolutely scammed, as Belle didn't (and at this point, I'd bet that this mystery sire didn't either). This breeder does _some_ clearances, which is a lot better than some terrible breeders, but what they do is nowhere near enough.

So stop contradicting reality. Your breeder doesn't fit the guidelines of a good breeder as set out by the breed club. There's no good reason to pretend that they do, and there are lots of reasons to acknowledge that they don't. And please post Sam's sire's name, and we can show you exactly which clearances were done and which weren't.


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## obgyndoc

*galaxy goldens*

I too have purchased a puppy from Galaxy Goldens. The dam is China and sire is Orion. I have seen all the comments regarding this breeder. I have an American Golden who is almost 11. I now have concerns after reading everyones comments as I am new to this type of Golden Retriever. We seemed to have had a good experience with them. The puppy is gorgeous and doing well at his training classes. He has checked out well at the vet. What do I do next? As a physician, I felt drawn to try therapy work with him.


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## obgyndoc

*galaxy goldens*

:wave:I too have purchased a puppy from Galaxy Goldens. The dam is China and sire is Orion. I have seen all the comments regarding this breeder. I have an American Golden who is almost 11. I now have concerns after reading everyones comments as I am new to this type of Golden Retriever. We seemed to have had a good experience with them. The puppy is gorgeous and doing well at his training classes. He has checked out well at the vet. What do I do next? As a physician, I felt drawn to try therapy work with him.


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## golden_eclipse

My suggestions: I think its a good idea for all golden owners to do (regardless of breeding or not), but maybe more so in this situation, and that is take your puppy yearly to a Board certified opthamologist for an examination, this is great insurance (especially considering the numerous outdated/non existent eye exams from this particular breeder). If PU (a genetic disease in goldens) is caught early, there is a much better prognosis. The only way to catch PU in the early stages before turning into glaucoma is for an opthamologist to examine the dog. 

Also I recommend fish oil to help with joint health. (there are other supplements other people could recommend)

Be sure to keep the puppy slim and from growing too fast . Also avoid any forced exercise till 18-24 months old, of course starting slow. 

Also stick around the forum and if you have any questions, you have a lot of support here! We would love to see pictures of your new puppy.

Also the dam of your puppy was bred on prelims, that were "fair", so there is at least a 25% chance the dam has HD, and should have never been bred, along with that, her elbows have a relatively high chance of coming back with ED after the 24 month evaluation. The Breeder just never bothered. What a shame.


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## obgyndoc

*thank you*

Thank you for this quick reply. Fish oil is amazing an I recommend that to all my patients too. What qualifies as strenuous exercise? Right now, we throw the ball back and forth and go on walks a quarter of a mile about 2-3 times a week. He loves to rough house with my 11 year old golden (who loves it). That is the extent of his exercise. I will make sure we get his eyes checked at one year. I was planning on neutering at age 1 year also.


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## golden_eclipse

Some, including myself recommend waiting on neutering till even older than a year, I have in my contract that males shouldn't be neutered before 18 months. This can actually help joints develop more naturally. (although this is a decision a lot of people argue over and science isn't exactly clear on). Something to think about at least. 

As for exercise, its tricky. I am all for training to retrieve and keeping the puppy active, but its a balance. I always find puppies to get tired pretty quickly (they have bursts of energy and then get tired), so I guess don't "force" exercise, let the puppy determine when to go and when to stop. As for the walk that sounds great, just avoid pavement if you can (the impact affects the puppies the same as it does humans). 

Playing with an 11 year old golden oldie sounds great for the puppy to learn all the doggy social rules. 

Again this forum is great for specific questions and recommendations.


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## hvgoldens4

obgyndoc said:


> Thank you for this quick reply. Fish oil is amazing an I recommend that to all my patients too. What qualifies as strenuous exercise? Right now, we throw the ball back and forth and go on walks a quarter of a mile about 2-3 times a week. He loves to rough house with my 11 year old golden (who loves it). That is the extent of his exercise. I will make sure we get his eyes checked at one year. I was planning on neutering at age 1 year also.


 
There isn't a whole lot that can be done now as the proverbial horse has left the barn. Being a physician, you would have a better understanding about genetics than most. Genetics is a little like a game of cards in the fact that we don't have any way of knowing what we will be dealt. The GRCA advocates the clearances be done for hips, eyes, hearts and elbows to lessen the chances of these diseases cropping up. By breeding only clear parents for generations, the severity also seems to be lessened in most cases, if there is a problem, as well as having a lowered incidence of the diseases themselves. By not having the information on the parents, etc, you may have increased the odds of something happening but statistically speaking, there will still be dogs who are fine so here's hoping that your dog is one of those!  

My advice would be similar to what has already been given and to be extra vigilent. If you think you see a problem, don't question it, have the dog checked out. Severe elbow dysplasia usually rears its head between 6-12 mos old, severe hip problems are seen usually between 1-2 years. The problems seen with these issues are pain and lameness or an unwillingness to do certain things. Goldens are rather stoic by nature so we must watch them carefully.

Make sure the dog is lean and not allowed to be overweight. Weight presents the same issues in bones and joints in dogs as it does in people. I would also make sure the dog does get good exercise so there is good lean muscle mass covering the joints. With ball and socket type joints, it is important that there is good muscle covering those joints because this adds more stability to the joint. There is nothing wrong with the dog performing the activities that you have mentioned. You don't want the dog running with someone on concrete or another hard surface or having the dog perform other types of forced activities. Playing with your other dog, going for walks and playing ball(as long as it is on soft surface-ie grass) are good things. 

Eye problems can be seen at any time. PRA, PU and certain types of cataracts would be the most serious eye problems seen in goldens. The average age of onset with PU is about 8 years old but there are certainly cases seen earlier. Anyone who has the ability to have their golden seen by an opthomolgist is smart to do so as these diseases can be treated better if caught early.

Most vets should be able to hear a severe enough heart murmur that would cause an issue with the dog or be indicitive of SAS which is the heart issue that can be seen in goldens.

I tell our families who have male puppies to wait until they are at least 1 year old before neutering and some wait until around 2. Hormones are what close the growth plates and by neutering young, the growth plates will stay open for longer. Early spay/neuters have also been linked to hypothyroidism and increased risks for different types of cancer. 

There is also no reason that you should not pursue therapy work with your dog. Hopefully, your puppy will continue to thrive and do well.


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## LibertyME

There is nothing in the world stopping you from planning on getting your dogs hips and elbows evaluated at 2 years for your peace of mind and submitting them to OFA for review and contributing to the database of information. You would be looking at about a $200-$250 investment.


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## golden_eclipse

Swimming is great exercise for puppies, not many people have a great place to take their dog swimming year around. But if you do, I highly recommend it.


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## coffenut

obgyndoc said:


> :wave:I too have purchased a puppy from Galaxy Goldens. The dam is China and sire is Orion. I have seen all the comments regarding this breeder. I have an American Golden who is almost 11. I now have concerns after reading everyones comments as I am new to this type of Golden Retriever. We seemed to have had a good experience with them. The puppy is gorgeous and doing well at his training classes. He has checked out well at the vet. What do I do next? As a physician, I felt drawn to try therapy work with him.


JMO ... if you have had a good experience with them and you love your pup, that's all that counts. As a physician, you know that nothing is ever set in stone. If your pup has the personality for therapy work, go for it!! Get pet insurance if you can and enjoy every minute of your puppy!! (pictures would be good too ... just sayin')


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## obgyndoc

Hi. Thank you again for everyone helping me out with my new little man. I should have looked into things more thoroughly. My hubby got him for my birthday and we are so inexperienced with this that we failed to recognize the breeder rules.


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## Shalva

obgyndoc said:


> Hi. Thank you again for everyone helping me out with my new little man. I should have looked into things more thoroughly. My hubby got him for my birthday and we are so inexperienced with this that we failed to recognize the breeder rules.


whats done is done... you love your dog... and lets keep our fingers crossed that everything will be fine as he grows... and in the future when you decide you need two dogs you will have learned and will know all that you need to know to find a breeder next time. 

Right now enjoy your puppy...


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## My Big Kahuna

I know threads like this one get heated but I learn SO MUCH from them...


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## LibertyME

Love-up your pup as deeply as he does you. He deserves every inch of your heart.

If you're like most Golden lovers, he wont be your last!  Future dogs will come into your life with the benefit of more research...

You're going to find that family and friends will look to you and ask your advice about where to buy a golden to bring into their homes..._help_ them make informed choices....



obgyndoc said:


> Hi. Thank you again for everyone helping me out with my new little man. I should have looked into things more thoroughly. My hubby got him for my birthday and we are so inexperienced with this that we failed to recognize the breeder rules.


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## nolefan

obgyndoc said:


> Hi. Thank you again for everyone helping me out with my new little man. I should have looked into things more thoroughly. My hubby got him for my birthday and we are so inexperienced with this that we failed to recognize the breeder rules.


I hope you will continue to stick around here.... The people here have been a wonderful source of support to me over the past couple years and I've learned so much about dogs in general and goldens in particular, it really has been invaluable. 

Would love to see photos of your pup and hear about his adventures.


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## goldenhelena

I am a reputable breeder in Atlanta, have worked in the veterinary field for over 50 years, and work with various rescue groups. All my kids have their OFA clearances and genetic testing. I know first hand this breeder is NOT what they say they are! Even though thier dogs are imported they should have US clearances from OFA. Just putting "clear" for eyes and hearts is not acceptable nor believable. Furthermore, we just received THREE dogs from this kennel into a rescue I sponsor that have Ectopic Eureter which is a congenital problem and requires surgery to fix. Whoever did their website is a great marketer but I would NOT recommend this breeder to anyone as they are NOT who they make themselves out to be! When looking for a breeder do your home work! Make sure the dogs are in the OFA data base or the breeder sends you copies of the required clearances in writing: do not believe just words on their web site alone or verbally!


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## Prism Goldens

Agreed- if you are living and breeding here, you should have verifiable clearances from HERE. BVA and others that can't be verified and are easily falsified are not acceptable if one is buying a puppy. 
I ran through all their dogs comparing site:k9data:OFA and found that only one dog had all his clearances, and his eyes are years out of date. He also has a full sib w DJDI and offspring w DJDII so really would be too risky to use at stud for any discerning breeder.

Not to mention that this breeder is clearly not a part of any GR community, since she quotes as a source for her claims this : –" The English retriever tends to be a healthier dog than the American retriever. Comparing studies from the Golden Retriever Club of America vs. the British Kennel Club, you can see that:"

So----those surveys were A. NOT studies, and B. not done by the groups she cites.

This is also untrue : "Additionally, it seems overseas breeders have been more consistent in doing helath testing over multiple generations, in order to weed out dogs with higher genetic "

Dysplastic elbows are breedable in Europe and they don't do cardiac clearances as a rule
Another quote: "Galaxy puppy comes carefully bred from Sire and Dam with world class genetics for increased likelihood of superior health, temperament, intelligence, and beauty. Each puppy comes from World Champions (at least 5 World Champion titles the pedigree), not just champions. That means those World Class qualities are being passed down to your puppy."

This is baloney. There's not a byb dog in the country who doesn't have a CH pedigree if you go back far enough..and these 'world' ch's she's touting are not the dogs themselves. Then there is the obvious issue with the amount of competition to get an international ch... all of two days' entries and every dog can be earn it in those two days.... sigh....yet puppy people read the site and believe what the site says, never thinking sites lie/deliberately deceive and never thinking an international ch is really just a practice exercise, not hard at all to achieve. So this breeder is kept in business. 

I'm really looking forward to the day when we research a breeder for a puppy buyer who comes here and find a GOOD breeder of this type dog, not just a slick website. 

GoldenHelena, Thank you for supporting the rescue you work with. Ectopic uereter is so rare in Goldens, if a breeder has made three of them they need to cut those dogs from their program. But based on the lacking clearances and general Euro nonsense I see on the site, I doubt they will have the ethics to do this. Why not just create more problems for buyers and pain for puppies.. .so sad.


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## 3dogmama

Goldenhelena - Do you know who the parents of the 3 dogs with ectopic eureter? 

Prism Goldens - Do you know which sire has the DJDI and DJDII sibling and offspring?

Many thanks!


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## Prism Goldens

Helena may or may not see this post- you might PM her and ask- if she knows the parents names- or can divulge that. There isn't much worse imo than a breeder who strains a rescue to repair something that shouldn't have happened and if it did, should have had the cost borne by the breeder....
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1621189 is the sire of the DJDII and sib of DJD I
His call name is Romeo. I haven't looked at this site lately, will go look at the rest and post if I see other concerns.
Romeo's sire does not appear to have had clearances at all, and his dam has an inadequate cardiac clearance, last eye exam 2013. No hips/elbows either (and no one in the US besides OFA does elbows).


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## Prism Goldens

Other stud dog Jack- BVA is not verifiable and easily falsified. Add to that that the BVA will test dogs at 12 months... 
he does have a correct cardiac clearance but his last eye posted was 2013. Oddly, the website says he has BVA 0:0 elbows, but she did do OFA elbows (passed). I do wonder however if she did not do hips when she repeated elbows, or if she did and they did not pass since the BVA could have been done so very young. I just find it quite odd that the elbows were done w OFA if the site showing BVA elbows already done?
Gloria- eyes done at 14 months. Cardiac is correct. BVA clearances are posted on the site, and it says hard copy available on puppy pickup to view. At this point I will say it is inexpensive to have OFA verify BVA and post them on their database. 
Star- eyes -some random number(not a clearance # w any registry I have ever seen) on website. Cardiac is on OFA and is correct. Hips and elbows- now we have shifted to FCI for hips and elbows... so she states it is a B. According to this chart, there is no B- there is B1 and B2- B1 is a Fair and B2 is Borderline. 
Juliette- has cardiac, eyes out of date. No hips/elbows on OFA. 
Tink- nothing at all on OFA... and apparently FCI does eyes and heart as well as hips and elbows? All have the same # on the website for this dog- I do not know. I can't say I have ever seen a FCI eye/heart clearance.
Lucy- has a proper heart clearance. Eyes way out of date, and no hips/elbows on OFA. 
Her dam had no clearances on OFA either.


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## Senravj

*Family dog?*

Hi Robin (and others who want to chime in),

It appears I'm in way over my head, but I'm trying to find a breeder in Atlanta so that I can have a healthy family dog for my house for years to come. I have no interest in having a show dog or a working dog, and I'm getting lost in all this. 

My wife and I have owned several dogs in our lifetime (German Shepard, Lab, Husky, to name a few) and we want to get a Golden for the family. We have an 11-year-old daughter. We have a 5 BR house and a fenced backyard. We just want a sweet, lovable dog to play with, care for, love, and be a part of the family. Not a lap dog,a playful dog. We know several friends/family with Goldens and Labs and know what we're for and can't wait! We plan on crate training, and are looking for a pup who has a strong family history of being healthy. (Duh, who isn't? But the point is I'm stuck between not wanting to buy my family dog off of craigslist and not getting the attention of breeders who don't see what I offer as valuable enough.)

So far, reaching out to some of the breeders mentioned have resulted in zero responses. Perhaps the idea of just a family dog is below what these amazing breeders are striving for, but I would love some direction on where I should go in the Atlanta area for that kind of Golden. 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks for reading this.


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## Prism Goldens

Karen Harman just had a litter yesterday- Charming Goldens. west of airport somewhere....
Jan Moore is Goldstrike and she she has a girl due in about 3 weeks. Oxford. 
Mary Ann Revell is breeding a girl next week. Double R Goldens. She's just east of Macon about 10 min
Margie's puppies are all spoken for but she'll have another litter next year- Goldruls Goldens, Eatonton. 

That's all I can think of right now that I know have plans.


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## Senravj

Thank you so much. This is a HUGE help!


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## Prism Goldens

And Helena Lamont (Bearabella ) is near Karen Harman somewhere on that side of Atlanta. I don't keep up w her litters, but she does always have clearances.


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## Prism Goldens

Senravj said:


> Hi Robin (and others who want to chime in),
> 
> It appears I'm in way over my head, but I'm trying to find a breeder in Atlanta so that I can have a healthy family dog for my house for years to come. I have no interest in having a show dog or a working dog, and I'm getting lost in all this.
> 
> My wife and I have owned several dogs in our lifetime (German Shepard, Lab, Husky, to name a few) and we want to get a Golden for the family. We have an 11-year-old daughter. We have a 5 BR house and a fenced backyard. We just want a sweet, lovable dog to play with, care for, love, and be a part of the family. Not a lap dog,a playful dog. We know several friends/family with Goldens and Labs and know what we're for and can't wait! We plan on crate training, and are looking for a pup who has a strong family history of being healthy. (Duh, who isn't? But the point is I'm stuck between not wanting to buy my family dog off of craigslist and not getting the attention of breeders who don't see what I offer as valuable enough.)
> 
> So far, reaching out to some of the breeders mentioned have resulted in zero responses. Perhaps the idea of just a family dog is below what these amazing breeders are striving for, but I would love some direction on where I should go in the Atlanta area for that kind of Golden.
> 
> Any advice would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks for reading this.


Also, don't feel over your head is anything less than- dogs are a foreign language to most people. 
Good breeders do breed for show dogs, yes, but every litter has mostly pets in it for the most part and a pet is the best and most important job for any dog to do. The plus to buying from a show bred litter is your puppy will get all the socializing and care and attention that the breeder's show puppy will- because even if one were of the mind to neglect, one could not afford to take that chance with next show dog and no one can pick show puppies at birth.... it's all of 7+ weeks first! So all puppies will get great experiences.


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## Senravj

Thanks for all your help, Robin. 

I've reached out to all the breeders you suggested. Margie wrote back to say her next litter is likely Spring/Summer.

I came here because I am talking with Galaxy about their litter due on Dec 20. My question is - seeing as how we are looking for a family pet, not a show/work dog - how egregious are the issues with certification? I'm having them email me PDFs of the OFA certification. The sire is Jack (I read what you wrote above about him). I'm looking for a happy, healthy dog, but don't necessarily need one fit for show/working. Should I still eliminate Galaxy?

Hopefully I'll hear back from the ones you suggested, because that makes it easier to just go with a more trusted breeder.

Thank you so much for all your help. I've been going down a rabbit hole trying to do thorough research on getting a puppy, and you're helping pull me out of the darkness.


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## LJack

Do you consider health a something fancy, just for show dogs? Does your pet deserve to have a higher chance of health issues than a show dog? Are you willing to not only shoulder these higher risks but pay your hard earned money to a breeder that is taking health shortcuts that could impact your family?

These are questions only you can answer. 

If it helps here is an infographic and screenshots of health certifications.


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## Prism Goldens

I think family dog is the most important job. 
Show bred litters make handsome puppies/dogs and to me that is even better, a handsome correct dog who is a family member. And whose odds of straining a budget to fix something are slim. 

Overall, I just dislike breeder sites that are all sunshine and light and really have nothing to base that on.


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## Senravj

LJack, your first "question" was uncalled for, IMO. That entire line of "questions" you presented was thinly veiled and I don't appreciate being talked down to.

I asked Robin this: "I'm looking for a happy, HEALTHY* dog, but don't necessarily need one fit for show/working. Should I still eliminate Galaxy?"

*Why would you ask if I considered health something fancy if you knew I'm looking for a healthy dog? 

That indicates I'm concerned about the health of my future family member. But - since through all 10 pages of you guys arguing back and forth - it was still unclear as to where to draw the line between what is the expected condition of a show/work dog and what is the expected condition of a family dog, I am trying to discern the certification results for the three dogs whose litters are due soon at Galaxy. I started discussions with them prior to finding this site, otherwise I wouldn't be asking so many questions about them.

That said, I appreciate the graphic and the certification. I'm assuming those are the sire/dam of this next litter? Or is that just an example of what I should be looking for when they send me the OFAs? Again, apologies for not knowing what to look for already. It's a lot to decipher early on, and I want to make sure I give our new family member a good chance to be happy and healthy.

Not every Golden will be physically/mentally capable of being a show dog/work dog. But every dog deserves to be loved and cared for. I want to bring home a dog who had a great first 8 weeks and has a good chance at a long and healthy life. If they're not built to be a show dog, I don't want to eliminate them. That just means they have a greater chance at going to a ****** owner who will mistreat them/give up on/put them up for adoption.

The dogs in family die with our family. They're in our family photo albums. My wife's last dog still has her own picture on the nightstand. 

I'm just trying to find out if - while I wait for the other breeders to respond to my applications - I should eliminate Galaxy because Jack and his two dams (one dam has a litter on Dec 20, one dam has a litter a week later) have too good a chance at producing babies who will have health problems. 

Maybe an analogy will help get my point across better for others who read this:

Example A:
Jack wants to have a child, and their spouse tests them for all the regular stuff that can go wrong with humans. In that testing, they learn that they are not smart enough to produce a neuroscientist, not are they physically gifted enough to produce an athlete. But they have no immediate history of early Cancer or other things that might not give the child a fair chance at a happy, healthy life.

Example B:
Jack wanted a child. But through testing they learned that the chances of them having a happy, healthy child aren't great. 


From what you guys know of Galaxy, are they overcharging for what seems like a great breeder, when in fact they're just average Goldens and have no better chance of producing a litter that is free of health problems than any other Golden?

Or is Galaxy not quite up to the standards they need to be at for show/work dogs, but will likely be able to have litters that have a good chance of being free of most of the major health problems associated with Goldens?



Robin, I can definitely see what you mean about their site being all sunshine and roses. Are "English" Goldens really any less susceptible to some of these issues than American Goldens? Or is that just a line they use?


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## LJack

I am sorry if you were offended by my questions, which I personally feel are very valid considering you have repeatedly pointed to not needing a show or working bred dog and continued to ask health questions after the missing certifications have been listed for you. That is not a dig on your asking, because though you are clearly asking about health it would be incorrect for me to assume that is your only priority when getting a dog. There may be other selection criteria like wait times, price, location, etc. The fact that you are basically in a loop that to me seems like “well how bad could it be to be missing health certifications” points to potential conflict in your selection needs process. 

To me someone saying they don’t want show/working dogs indicates pet bred which in turn almost always mean profit driven breeders who do not meet the health testing standards of our country. I really don’t know why this is the case, there is certainly a ready and large market for healthy pets. But it nearly always ends up that being either lacking in health certifications or in the rare chance they have them charging the same or more than breeders offering more value (better structure, breed type and/or working ability) in the proving of their dogs in competition. 

I am honestly glad you had a reaction to my questions though because I think you are tying Show/working to something it is not. Statistically if you want full and verifiable health certifications, the many companion puppies in any show/working bred litter are where you will have the best opportunity to find it. 

It is unfortunately impossible to compare human procreation to dog breeding as the difference is in the closed gene pool. 

If you want to know the risks they are out there for your perusal on the GRCA website and OFA, which is where the information in the infographic is sourced from. The core four health certifications (hips and elbows at or after 24 months, Heart by a cardiologist at or after 12 months and eyes annually) are the minimum for responsible breeding. These tests have been determined be necessary by our national breed club which is comprised of breeders, exhibitors in various dog sports, Veterinarians, service dog breeders, and other dog professionals. These are the tests and testing ages they have put forward as needed in breeding animals based on the disorders that are 1) testable and 2) most detrimental to the animal and the breed. 

I encourage you to look to the National non-profit expert organizations for your research. Then you can decide if lacking the appropriate health certifications is an issue for you. For me personally it would be a no. As always the choice of the amount of risk is yours.


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## Kmullen

Senravj, a show or working breeder does dog shows or any other dog sport to prove that his/her dogs have the qualities that a golden retriever should have. That is why I would want to support a breeder that is out doing things with their dogs. I do not know the breeder in question, but I know they charge $600 more than I charge! Of course, their are no guarentees in life, but I just have a hard time supporting a breeder that is charging the same, if not more than breeders that are truly trying to do right by the golden retriever breed. Also, I might have a litter of 8 puppies and only keep one or two show puppies. The other 6-7 puppies go to WONDERFUL pet/family homes. Those pet home seek the same things that you are seeking. Good Luck in your search and I am sure you will give a puppy a wonderful home.


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## Senravj

You assume far too much, LJack. It's condescending and off-putting. 

Taken at face value, my question remains: in this forum's expert opinion, are the health certification red flags raised about Galaxy enough to worry that the dogs have actual health risks from normal pet life, or just to disqualify them in your eyes as being healthy enough for show/work? 

Hence the athlete/neuroscience analogy. My back and knees are totally fine. But I don't play in the NFL. 

I don't yet know enough about how hips/eyes/elbows deteriorate in a Golden (or what's required a show dog or a work dog, as all I've ever required of dogs is to be a family pet) to know whether it's the extra wear-and-tear of dogs bred to show/work that make this such an important factor in what's missing from Galaxy's records, or if it's just not up to the standard of what would required for show/work dogs. 

Was hoping for a simple:

Yes, there are tests that EVERY Golden needs to pass to have a good chance of living a long, healthy life free of hip pain, surgery, and blindness. 

OR

No, the blindness issue wouldn't happen until late in life, but it does affect their vision early, which can cause problems as a work dog. And the rigors of show training can wear their hips down, meaning all the time/money invested in getting them ready is in jeopardy. If it's just regular play/exercise, the OFA's from Galaxy look OK. Not great, but not bad, either.

I'm piecing together the answers to this, which is that Galaxy has left too much blank to warrant their price tag. It's likely that they're charging the amount you would pay for an elite healthy dog, but in fact there dogs aren't quite as healthy as their website makes you believe, which could lead to a greater risk of health problems than a stronger breeder would have, even as a household pet.

I'm getting the certifications on the sire and both dams from Galaxy. I'll then do my own due diligence with them. This is all while waiting for any of Robin's suggestions to respond to me. That way I can make as informed a decision as I can make on my family addition. 

By the way, you should look up how narcissists use the phrase "I'm sorry you were offended."



Kmullen - Thank you for your reply. That makes sense and helps answer one of my questions: They seem to be overcharging without even the generally accepted level of certification. Also, that's a good point about the work dog not being exceptional as much as being what any healthy Golden is capable of. 

Thanks everyone for your help. Once I get their updated OFAs, if I don't see an across-the-board approval on the core four, I'll just wait for a better breeder to have a litter.


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## solinvictus

"average Goldens"

Show and working goldens are average goldens.  All goldens originated in Scotland. English cream goldens and American red goldens are just a marketing ploy to get your money. The Golden Retriever Club Of America (GRCA) has a code of ethics for golden breeders to follow not to make show or working goldens but to give the goldens the best chance at a healthy life. If a breeder isn't doing the 4 core health certifications and putting their dog out into some venue they are not a responsible golden breeders. Getting an "English Cream" does Not give you a one up on health. The best chances for a healthy dog is by purchasing a dog through a Responsible breeder. Anyone who claims that the dogs in their lines have Never had cancer is lying. Anyone willing to purchase a golden from a not so stellar breeder probably should buy health insurance for their dog. Anyone purchasing a golden through a shelter or rescue also should probably buy health insurance. You up the chances for a healthy dog by buying from a breeder that follows the code of ethics but not all dogs from non-ethical breeders will be unhealthy. 

No matter where anyone chooses to get their dog the dog becomes a priceless, loved and valued family member. 
Wishing you good luck with your search.


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## Senravj

Thank you, Solinvictus. This line helped clear things up: "The Golden Retriever Club Of America (GRCA) has a code of ethics for golden breeders to follow not to make show or working goldens but to give the goldens the best chance at a healthy life." I knew nothing of the GRCA until I recently switched from trying to adopt a resume dog to going with a breeder.

And, just to be clear, you wrote: "Getting an "English Cream" does give you a one up on health." Did you mean it does NOT give you a one up?

My initial plan was to get a rescue dog. Give a dog who has a great chance of having a terrible life a chance to have a loving family. But the process to do that so far has been a full-on interrogation. I'm prepared to deal with health issues if it means saving a puppy's life. But it's harder to get approved than it is to apply to live on Mars.

Anyway, I'm tied up in trying to get a healthy dog but also wanting to get a dog who needs a home, regardless of their health issues. But now I'm in no-man's-land. Or no-dog's-land as it were.


Thanks for the help. The search continues!


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## ceegee

Senravj said:


> (...)
> _Was hoping for a simple:
> 
> Yes, there are tests that EVERY Golden needs to pass to have a good chance of living a long, healthy life free of hip pain, surgery, and blindness.
> 
> OR
> 
> No, the blindness issue wouldn't happen until late in life, but it does affect their vision early, which can cause problems as a work dog. And the rigors of show training can wear their hips down, meaning all the time/money invested in getting them ready is in jeopardy. If it's just regular play/exercise, the OFA's from Galaxy look OK. Not great, but not bad, either.
> 
> I'm piecing together the answers to this, which is that Galaxy has left too much blank to warrant their price tag. It's likely that they're charging the amount you would pay for an elite healthy dog, but in fact there dogs aren't quite as healthy as their website makes you believe, which could lead to a greater risk of health problems than a stronger breeder would have, even as a household pet._(...)/QUOTE]
> 
> Simply put, there are tests that every Golden needs to pass. Congenital joint problems and eye problems are common in the breed, mainly because of unscrupulous breeders who don't do their homework before they breed their dogs. Regardless of what your future dog will be doing - playing with your kids or competing in shows - you don't want him to go blind or lame, and you certainly don't want the very large financial expense of dealing with congenital blindness and lameness. There are, of course, no guarantees. But the more holes there are in the health certifications, the more likely you are, statistically, to encounter problems.
> 
> There are also some other red flags here that would make me step away from the breeder you're considering. First, the term "English Cream" is a marketing term; there is no separate "breed" here. They are golden retrievers, period. There's no evidence to suggest that these dogs are healthier than other "types", as is claimed on the website. In fact, many of the dogs imported from abroad and used to breed "English Creams" come from lines that have not been systematically tested for congenital disease. So it would be possible to argue that they may in fact be less healthy. Second, the website brags about the number of "champions" in the pedigrees, but when you actually look at the pedigrees, those "champions" are several generations back (at best). The owners of recent generations, including the breeder in question, haven't done anything with their dogs except breed them. And third, the cost of these pups is very considerably higher than many of us - myself included - have paid for dogs whose parents, grandparents and other ancestors have full health certifications and long lists of current working or show titles.
> 
> Although you're not looking for a dog to show or compete with, the titles still have value because they show that the breeder has invested time and effort in his or her dogs and has tried to improve the breed, rather than simply capitalize on it. You would be staggered at the amount of money it costs to get some of the titles you'll see on dogs from reputable breeders - well into five figures in most cases. What you're getting from breeders who show or compete with their dogs are pups that were bred with the aim of bettering the breed: better structure to reduce the risk of injuries, healthier ancestors to reduce the risk of congenital disease, nicer temperaments to avoid aggression, and so on. These are all things that every dog owner would want in an ideal world. And they are worth waiting for.
> 
> Anyway. I wish you good luck in the process of finding your pup, and many years of happiness with your dog!


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## solinvictus

"And, just to be clear, you wrote: "Getting an "English Cream" does give you a one up on health." Did you mean it does NOT give you a one up?"

Yes I screwed that sentence up royally. There should have been a big NO in there I went back and corrected it.

I didn't look at Galaxy but if they don't have all 4 core and do something besides have cute dogs at their house I would skip them if you are trying to up your chances on health.

Most breeders that don't follow the code of ethics aren't looking at temperaments either. My older dog who I love dearly came from a back yard breeder. She owned two goldens and made pups. Helie is fear reactive, has noise phobias and is afraid of unknown dogs. He is very well trained so I can take him anywhere but it just isn't fun for him if things are scary. If you are going to pay good money for a golden retriever you would want to be able to go anywhere and enjoy the qualities that goldens are known for. (general you) Going anywhere with him I have to be on guard every second to keep him safe. My younger dog is a well bred golden with the typical golden temperament and if I just take him it is such a different experience. I know he will be a happy confident dog, I still have to be a responsible owner and keep him safe but it is a much more relaxed enjoyable occasion. Being committed to a dog for 10 to 15 or so years that is fearful can be a very frustrating and sad experience for an average owner that had such wonderful dreams of what they would do with their loving family member.


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## Senravj

Thank you ceegee. That helps. I'm going to avoid getting our puppy from them. I wanted to do my research on them and so far I've asked every question I can think of and have yet to get a response in favor of going forward with them.

Thanks for the help and encouragement! I'm excited to have a dog in our family again.


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## LJack

Ugh, yes I am the most condescending, assuming person on the forum. :wink2:

I am sorry you are bound and determined to take offense at anything I say. The folks in this forum know my intent is solely to help and place the utmost focus on verifiable and honest information on health. I will leave you in their capable hands, I am out of this thread.

Good luck conversing with passionate breeders and getting the puppy of your dreams.


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## Prism Goldens

LJack's graphics and educational skills are so valued here- but just like anything else, sometimes people don't capeesh intent and always (at least w me) it gets worse before better. 
Here's the thing w Galaxy to me- overpriced for value and implying things that are not true in the truest sense....such as 'champion pedigree' and this statement: "All our puppies come from fully health cleared sire and dam (for hips, elbows, eyes, heart, PRA, and Ichthyosis) and have at least 6 World Winner titles and 2 Vice-World Winner titles in their 5 generation pedigree"

There is no way to verify any of these things except cardiac. The recent (if they exist) eye exams are not on OFA and they have not sent the varied other hip/elbow scheme reports to OFA for listing. That implication that 6 world winner (what ever that is, it is not anything the British use to my knowledge) is of value in a 5 gen pedigree is silly out of 32 individuals who could conceivably have accomplished a title. It is bizarre to me that this breeder who does nothing with their dogs charges $2450 for their puppies- when you can buy a real champion pedigree in the Atlanta area for $2k or just slightly more. They do this solely on coat color! So that begs the question- what are they doing w all that money? If it isn't going back into the dogs (showing w a handler might run $2000-2500 a month) or earning titles, I guess that would put these people into the 'we live on our dog money' category. And a good living it is! However, when there is a bottom line to consider because one's house payment depends on it, one might make choices that are considering not so much the product produced as the bottom line. In case you are curious, many breeders use puppy money for the dogs' showing. 
I think that pet is the most important job. I would not be interested in buying a puppy from a program like this unless it were a price more in line w the value - which to my mind is about $1500 considering the importing of the animals. A next gen to me (since nothing is spent proving their animals) would be in the $1200 range.


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## MurphySkye

cheerio said:


> I live in GA, and try to find a breeder that sell English Golden puppies, and I found Galaxy Goldens online
> ,Galaxy Goldens - Atlanta Golden Retriever Breeders of Stunning English Creams
> 
> Does anyone know about them? or a scam?
> Thanks


I asked my old breeder, Lucky Lady Farms, for a referral. She recommended Galaxy Goldens. I have not contacted them and the comments are concerning. I wonder what they know..?


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## Prism Goldens

Here's my current assessment of the dogs on the site: Zion- Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO his owner chose to list PH and BVA (BVA underaged) on k9data, yet did not list the OFA Good which is not 'perfect' as the others are claimed but unable to verify. His heart was done by an inadequate specialist, and his eyes are out of date. 
There's no telling on the rest of them, since (current litter) Jewel's page doesn't exist on her site, and the whole 'perfect' thing is the focus on the current litter page. 
edit: found the dogs are now listed under husband's name on k9data. Pedigree: Zamfield Fabulous Venus To Galaxy is Jewel- who is lacking ANY health clearances on OFA. IF the BVA as reported on k9data is correct on the elbows, she has unilateral elbow dysplasia. 
Truth told, I am bothered by breeders such as this who simply import dogs and breed them and whose websites are deliberately worded to give the feel of safety when in reality that's simply not the case.


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