# Any experience with Lakeview Goldens in IL/WI?



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

bumping up for more opinions
Beans is only 1 year old and the only clearances listed are the cardiac. No hips,elbows or eyes listed. Madison does have clearances listed on ofa. And also she has Tylers clearances shown on the website.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

No direct knowledge but this is what I see that I would question.
Two litters listed on website.
Madison X Tyler
Tyler has Hip, heart, elbows (on OFA) and eye (on CERF) clearances
Madison has no eye clearance I can find on CERF but does have hip, heart, elbows on OFA. Would want to see some eye clearance of some kind. 

Bean X Tyler
Tyler same as above
Bean - can find no clearances on OFA or CERF. I would have to see them clearances before I would seriously consider.

The other thing I question is why the rush to send litters home. Most breeders are at least 7 if not 8 weeks. this breeder seems to send to new homes when barely 6 weeks old for the Bean X Tyler litter. Is this because they are expecting the other litter (Madison X Tyler) around that time? If so that is a very poor decision in my opinion and would probably send me elsewhere.


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## geoff_rey (Aug 5, 2008)

I am also looking for a golden retriever breeder (IL/WI) for a January ready litter so I'll be sure to check around this thread ; )


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

I also don't like that they have very few dogs they have shown. I am not that impressed with the pedigrees.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

What you will never read on a breeder's web site:

"Our champion goldens are overweight, scraggly and downright ugly, have few if any health clearances, and most of them probably haven't bitten anyone....lately.
Our breeding program prevents dads breeding with daughters and moms breeding with sons..most of the time. Our dogs are raised in the backyard, because frankly, they smell and they shed. 
We breed strictly for maximum profit and offer a no-money back guarantee. We accept Visa, Mastercard, and Discover."

This is not a comment on this specific breeder, but on a couple of basic truths. 
a) all golden retriever puppies are cute. And most young adults are very pretty. 
b) most buyers are so excited about the prospect of a puppy that they don't do their homework.

So it's really smart to come to a place like this for a little "factchecking" on the website 
and personal experience with the breeder. The good news is that a well-bred dog isn't more expensive than one from a questionable kennel, although it may require a little more homework and waiting. 

allen


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks for all the responses. I'm not sold on any one breeder, but I'm investigating all of the options I can find. I liked the appearance of Madison far more than Bean. 

And when the organized group of breeders sets their prices at $1400 and up, IMO in these times that creates hundreds of reasons to investigate all options. 

One of my biggest concern about these folk is that they breed the pups in WI, and then sell them in the Chi area. Not only does that prevent you from meeting the parents, but I'd have to imagine pulling a litter from their mom all at once would impose unneccessary stress on both mom and pups.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

I would like to chime in about the price and WI breeders. First the typical prices for a pet puppy from really good breeders(at least in conformation) is $1200 right now. I personally have many of the puppies from my last litter in the Chicago area, but wouldn't even take a deposit until after there was a visit. 6 weeks is way too young to leave the litter, too much socialization still takes place durring that weeks. 7 weeks and older is acceptable, this can vary amoung breeds. Most of us in the golden world wait until the pups are around 8 weeks.

There are so many great golden breeders around the WI/IL area one should have little trouble finding a pup from one of them. Local GR clubs are a great resource. I personally know of 3 or 4 litters that would be 8 weeks around Jan to Feb time. So there is no reason to feel rushed to find a breeder.


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

have you read the FAQ page? they recommend feeding Puppy Chow, buying rawhide & tennis balls for the pups...


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

LOVEisGOLDEN said:


> have you read the FAQ page? they recommend feeding Puppy Chow, buying rawhide & tennis balls for the pups...


YIKES!! I think I'd keep looking for a better breeder.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

> And when the organized group of breeders sets their prices at $1400 and up, IMO in these times that creates hundreds of reasons to investigate all options.


Here's my Factcheck on dog prices.

Over a 12 year life span the price of $1200 "breeder" dog is 27 cents a day.
Over a 12 year life span the price of a $700 "pet shop" dog is 16 cents a day.

What does 11 cents a day actually buy you? Half a dog biscuit? A handful of kibble? 

Of course, if the pet shop dog has a $4,000 hip dysplasia operation all of a sudden you're up to a dollar a day, which is four times more than the breeder dog, not to mention the pain and suffering for you and your dog.

best
Allen


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

I agree, the organized breeders generally provide top quality dogs. 

And I'm not in any particular rush.


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## geoff_rey (Aug 5, 2008)

Doolin said:


> I would like to chime in about the price and WI breeders. First the typical prices for a pet puppy from really good breeders(at least in conformation) is $1200 right now. I personally have many of the puppies from my last litter in the Chicago area, but wouldn't even take a deposit until after there was a visit. 6 weeks is way too young to leave the litter, too much socialization still takes place durring that weeks. 7 weeks and older is acceptable, this can vary amoung breeds. Most of us in the golden world wait until the pups are around 8 weeks.
> 
> There are so many great golden breeders around the WI/IL area one should have little trouble finding a pup from one of them. Local GR clubs are a great resource. I personally know of 3 or 4 litters that would be 8 weeks around Jan to Feb time. So there is no reason to feel rushed to find a breeder.


Let us know the breeders :gotme:


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

avincent52 said:


> Here's my Factcheck on dog prices.
> 
> Over a 12 year life span the price of $1200 "breeder" dog is 27 cents a day.
> Over a 12 year life span the price of a $700 "pet shop" dog is 16 cents a day.
> ...


let me know when you find that breeder who lets you pay him 27 cents a day for a pup...

there are many top quality dogs with medical issues as well. my pup from a hobby breeder is healthy as they come, yet the more expensive- well bred girl has a sensitive digestive tract & allergies...


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## geoff_rey (Aug 5, 2008)

LOVEisGOLDEN said:


> let me know when you find that breeder who lets you pay him 27 cents a day for a pup...


He means how much it is calculated for every day of the dogs life.

But then again this doesn't include food, toys, all the dogs amenities, and veterinary bills. Dogs deserve all the care and love in the world, if you are worried that $1200 is a lot then you may not be able to support your dog in the future. Also like said before you are paying more for a higher quality bred dog, which will may reduce veterinary emergencies in the future.. greater percentage as the parents are very healthy and you know it. Yes, you can get lucky with a backyard breeder but some may have lots of genetic problems.
Also you know that the pups are treated very well from birth, etc.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

geoff_rey said:


> He means how much it is calculated for every day of the dogs life.
> 
> But then again this doesn't include food, toys, all the dogs amenities, and veterinary bills. Dogs deserve all the care and love in the world, if you are worried that $1200 is a lot then you may not be able to support your dog in the future. Also like said before you are paying more for a higher quality bred dog, which will may reduce veterinary emergencies in the future.. greater percentage as the parents are very healthy and you know it. Yes, you can get lucky with a backyard breeder but some may have lots of genetic problems.
> Also you know that the pups are treated very well from birth, etc.


Thank you. While it seems like a lot of money when it's a lump sum, the initial cost of a dog is a drop in the bucket compared to the money that most owners spend on food, chewies, and toys, much less vet expenses.

Of course there are no guarantees. The healthiest parents can produce a sickly pup and even a puppy mill can produce a healthy dog. 

But I'll take my chances with the offspring of the two healthy happy dogs with five generations of clearances.


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## lplawson (Feb 22, 2014)

*suspicious intercation*

after seeing that Lakeview Goldens was expecting 2 litters in February I sent an inquiry about a puppy in January. The reply was totally generic and sought no info about me or the home I would provide for the dog but simply told me that in order to reserve a puppy I should send them a check for $100. Against my better judgement I sent the check. I heard nothing back after I sent 2 separate emails to confirm receipt- the check did however clear my account. Earlier this week I received a voicemail saying that they had "a hard winter" and now realize neither of their mom's are pregnant. Granted I am not a vet - but it seems like this is something you would want to verify prior to posting a new litter as available and collecting deposits. When I called her back the woman was incredibly rude - simply answering the phone "un hugh" when I told her who I was. Then when I told her that the whole scenario seemed fishy and that I expected them to mail me my deposit back within a week she told me she could not guarantee that because the woman who handles the payments is hard to get a hold of and that she would send it when she could. Bizarre. I am actually relieved that this fell through because if they have this much trouble being organized with payment and reservations I can only imagine how their dogs are cared for. And their website still reflects that these litters are available and that puppies can be reserved by sending deposits. Seems like they should have taken that down the moment they realized they had no puppies to sell. Lesson learned that gut instincts are always right on. We will see if I ever receive my deposit


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## Be aWARE (Apr 10, 2014)

*Puppies Died*

We were due to receive our puppy 4/11/14 from Lake View Golden. We had received a phone call 2 weeks ago saying that the puppies have passed away from some puppy flu that was going around..... I had talked to my vet and she looked very puzzled and said she had not heard of anything of the sorts. If they were a good breeder they would have noticed the puppies were sick and should have been medically taken care of right away, but this did not happen.... My vet said there are a lot of red flags with this breeder and should not be used. On another note, the updated pictures were also never posed on time and when we had found out our puppy had passed it took them 5 days to take there pictures down from there website. DONT USE THEM :uhoh:


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## ddetlaf (Jun 23, 2014)

We got our puppy from Lakeview last October. He is healthy, happy and very loving. He is a 77# lap dog. We are getting a second pup this fall from Lakeview. They are not pretty, expensive breeders and may be in it solely for the money, but the pups all looked fine and we were satisified.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

ddetlaf said:


> We got our puppy from Lakeview last October. He is healthy, happy and very loving. He is a 77# lap dog. We are getting a second pup this fall from Lakeview. They are not pretty, expensive breeders and may be in it solely for the money, but the pups all looked fine and we were satisified.



Come back in five years and tell us how those pups are doing, I hope well, I fear not so well....


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

ddetlaf said:


> We got our puppy from Lakeview last October. He is healthy, happy and very loving. He is a 77# lap dog. We are getting a second pup this fall from Lakeview. They are not pretty, expensive breeders and may be in it solely for the money, but the pups all looked fine and we were satisified.


Except for the full litter of puppies that apparently died....


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## davepharos (Jan 20, 2008)

Almost 4 year old post, but in case anyone searches for lakeview goldens....

Golden I got from them just passed away at 10 1/2 years old. Spleen and lung cancer.
He also had severe hip dyspasia, front elbow issues, and severe arthritis.

Contacted them when the hip dysplasia was diagnosed in case they were interested in 
tracking the health of their pups....no response.


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## Goldens R Best (Oct 9, 2018)

*LV Goldens Breeder in Wisconsin*

I DO NOT recommend Lake View Goldens in Wisconsin. I purchased a Golden from LV and the puppy has been to the local vet 3 times during the last 3 weeks for de-worming. The puppy is growing but looks very skinny and is not gaining that much weight. The breeder recommends Purina Puppy Chow which is some of the cheapest dog food that you can purchase. I now have my puppy on Science Diet. I have been concerned about the minimal weight gain and brought it to my vet's attention. In summary, my new puppy has worms which explains why the minimal weight gain. The puppy eats well, but the worms are preventing for normal weight gain. The worms originated from the breeder as the puppy is not around any other dogs and does not have access to other dogs fecal matter. You get what you pay for. Most Golden's sell for around the $2000 price. LV Goldens sell for $1200.

I suspect this breeder also lied to us when they phoned us one day prior to picking the puppy up in Elburn. They told us that one of the puppies in the litter had died many weeks earlier and we ended up picking another puppy. I suspect that the puppy that we picked out may have been sold to another breeder. Stay away from LV Goldens in Wisconsin/Elburn, IL and purchase your Golden puppy from a more reputable breeder.


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## GoldenLoveTimesTwo (Nov 3, 2018)

So tomorrow we are suppose to be picking up two males from LV Golden. We had previously purchased two of their male goldens eleven years ago and we lost one earlier this month... we were told when we dropped off check last Friday in Elburn that we would be second pick on the male goldens and there would be four left. There were 7 males in the litter from Eve and Max. Tonight I heard that we will not be picking 2 of 4 males but rather 2 from the last three. It was a strange conversation, and right after I got off the phone I had a thought that something was wrong...somehow they had lost one...I do not know what to think...


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## anelson0808 (Oct 18, 2018)

I looked at puppies at LV in Elburn about a month ago. They said they had 10 week old puppies, which they had 3 Goldens but they were huge. We ended up getting a 10 week old puppy from another breeder and based on the size difference, the LV Goldens were about 14 weeks old. Also, they were in the basement of a house that was filled with cigarette smoke! The house was not very tidy and the parents are not at the house, I believe they are somewhere in Wisconsin. The basement where the puppies were stunk. They had 2 pens up - one had 3 Goldens, one had 1 lab (all about 14 weeks even though they said they were 10), then another part of the basement had 10 lab puppies that might have been 7-8 weeks old. 

Based on the condition of the basement and the fact they seemed to be lying about the age of the puppies, we decided against them and went with another breeder.


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## SBaker (Jan 15, 2018)

This all screams Puppy Mill to me, I would avoid


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## GoldenLoveTimesTwo (Nov 3, 2018)

So the story has a happy ending and it all turned out great...we were able to work all details out with breeder and are the proud owners of two handsome males. Our good friend also picked up another of the males and we will be making play dates later this week.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

GoldenLoveTimesTwo said:


> So the story has a happy ending and it all turned out great...we were able to work all details out with breeder and are the proud owners of two handsome males. Our good friend also picked up another of the males and we will be making play dates later this week.


I certainly hope it does turn out to be a happy ending. Puppies from this breeder are a very large health risk- I would recommend getting insurance. Also, if this breeder were any good, she would've warned you about Littermate Syndrome and would not have sold you 2 puppies from the same litter. Here is a short article on it: 
https://moderndogmagazine.com/articles/littermate-syndrome/80050 Anyway, hope you are lucky and have some healthy pups despite the lack of care taken by their breeder!


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## Jmar (Dec 4, 2018)

*Great experience...*

We had a great experience! We got our male Goldador (Lab/Golden Retriever) March 2018 and we couldn't be happier with him. We actually got the referral from a family member who purchased a Golden a few years back. Our boy is a solid/healthy dog with an AWESOME temperament and 75 lbs at 10 months old. Hands down the best dog ever. I personally know someone who went with a MUCH more expensive/reputable lab breeder and they're having major temperament issues/odd behavior. This family that runs it seem like they're open to answering any questions we had. The woman in Elburn was extremely friendly (as was her daughter who was there). They transport the puppies there since majority of their clientele is in the Chicagoland area. Sure, this family is in the business for making money, but isn't that what all breeders are in it for? We wanted a particular breed, so we did our homework and went somewhere we KNEW others had great experiences. Not just a random pet store or fancy website. We stayed in touch, asked lots of questions and at no point did I get a bad vibe. They may not be the fanciest, but I'm definitely going to return when we decide to add another furry baby to our family! Sad to hear others had such bad experiences!


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Jmar said:


> Sure, this family is in the business for making money, but isn't that what all breeders are in it for?


To put it simply, no.


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## Jmar (Dec 4, 2018)

Just a quick note, our Goldador is half lab, there are major differences in American-bred and English-bred. Ours is English so he's thicker/blockier head. Our boy was huge for his age, too! Still is!


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Jmar said:


> Sure, this family is in the business for making money, but isn't that what all breeders are in it for?


Uh, no. Most of the really conscientious reputable breeders who follow the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics for breeders are in it because they love the breed and want to ensure healthy Golden Retrievers stay in existence. I am not a breeder but I've seen enough about the good and bad breeders to know the answer to your "question" is absolutely no. Only the poor quality, crank out a bunch of puppies type breeders really turn a profit and it is at the uncaring risk of sickly puppies with hip, elbow, heart and eye problems not to mention the giardia and other intestinal issues.


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## Jmar (Dec 4, 2018)

ArchersMom said:


> To put it simply, no.


So you mean to tell me breeders aren't in it (partially) for the money? C'mon! We all know it's not an easy or cheap feat! Sure, I certainly wanted someone who knew everything about the breed and seemed knowledgeable, and they were. What I meant is I don't get puppy-mill vibes from this place, this seems like a family-ran business so yes, possibly a source of income. Again, I'm not judging anyone's decision, I'm just giving my personal experience. I'd rather have a behaviorally-sound/healthy dog than one I paid double for from a fancy facility that is having behavioral issues. I'm not raising a hunting/show dog just yet, I just wanted a solid companion for my family, and that is what we received. I'm new at this but a huge fan of Goldens, just wanted to give my personal experience on this breeder.:smile2:


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know why you're prejudiced against ethical breeders, but the option isn't only large scale breeding facility or backyard breeder. There are breeders out there that compete with their dogs, are knowledgeable about the breed, keep a small number in house that are all pets and put all of their time, love and money into raising the best puppies possible. They just don't churn out puppies.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Jmar said:


> Just a quick note, our Goldador is half lab, there are major differences in American-bred and English-bred. Ours is English so he's thicker/blockier head. Our boy was huge for his age, too! Still is!


Please do not try to educate us on the different characteristics of the dogs when you own a Goldador. I have owned golden's my entire life and I have purchased and help train many labs for my son. I would never mix the two, and if I did I would never try to tell someone that had owned/worked either breed what type/style of Goldador I had. I love my sons 4 year old lab and my two current golden's, but if you wanted a comparison my general statement would be they are totally different dogs, as they should be.


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## Jmar (Dec 4, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Please do not try to educate us on the different characteristics of the dogs when you own a Goldador. I have owned golden's my entire life and I have purchased and help train many labs for my son. I would never mix the two, and if I did I would never try to tell someone that had owned/worked either breed what type/style of Goldador I had. I love my sons 4 year old lab and my two current golden's, but if you wanted a comparison my general statement would be they are totally different dogs, as they should be.


Woah! I was just commenting on the person who mentioned they were big dogs! Settle down, I don't intend to be "prejudice" as another person mentioned, but just sharing what I was informed and my experience. I was genuinely looking for advise on the breed as we do intend to add another to our family soon (a GR) and I came across this post! Sorry I ruined your day, hope things turn around for you! lol


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Jmar said:


> Woah! I was just commenting on the person who mentioned they were big dogs! Settle down, I don't intend to be "prejudice" as another person mentioned, but just sharing what I was informed and my experience. I was genuinely looking for advise on the breed as we do intend to add another to our family soon (a GR) and I came across this post! Sorry I ruined your day, hope things turn around for you! lol


You didn't ruin my day. I also didn't see where anyone asked you about the size of your dog. I find it amusing that you are against ethical breeders who charge more for proper health tests and for the time and effort that they put into their program. I wonder if you will feel that way in 10 years? I also guess I should say i have never bred a dog. I do however consider my self an educated pet owner. I also value the qualities of both breeds. I'm sure your dog is lovely. My neighbors have a Goldador. I'm not sure they ever knew what the proper name for it was. They got it when a friends golden accidentally bred a neighbors lab and the puppies were given to good homes. 

I read the entire thread and the part I take issue with is that it sounds like these breeders have multiple litters at a time, being kept in a basement, and people have had major issues with their health. I personally would never lock my dog in a basement, and would not buy from a breeder that thought it was acceptable to keep puppies in a basement. I wish you and your pup the best of luck.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm really happy that you enjoy your pup, they all deserve to be loved. No one here has a problem with mixed breed dogs. The issue is that someone is doing it on purpose and for the sole purpose of income. The US puts down thousands of mixed breed dogs every day in every city because of breeders like this. Maybe next time you would consider rescue vs. supporting someone that is contributing to the over population and constantly full city pounds. Rescue has puppies too.
I hope your pup lives a long and happy life. Thanks for sharing your story but hope you understand why people don't consider this a good place to get a puppy regardless of the breed and certainly not a place to recommend... and really hope you didn't spend more than $50.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Jmar said:


> So you mean to tell me breeders aren't in it (partially) for the money? C'mon! We all know it's not an easy or cheap feat! Sure, I certainly wanted someone who knew everything about the breed and seemed knowledgeable, and they were. What I meant is I don't get puppy-mill vibes from this place, this seems like a family-ran business so yes, possibly a source of income. Again, I'm not judging anyone's decision, I'm just giving my personal experience. I'd rather have a behaviorally-sound/healthy dog than one I paid double for from a fancy facility that is having behavioral issues. I'm not raising a hunting/show dog just yet, I just wanted a solid companion for my family, and that is what we received. I'm new at this but a huge fan of Goldens, just wanted to give my personal experience on this breeder.:smile2:


I don't want you to feel like everyone is jumping on you, sometimes the forum members can be a little exuberant in their desire to educate. This is a link to a thread from 2015 but the links on some of the posts here give good insight to what breeder costs can actually run.

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...er-breeder-puppy/348945-cost-breed-puppy.html


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LOL... the whole 'isn't the breeder in it for the $$' is just plain and simple uneducated.
Good breeders DO make money- but they spend it ALL plus a considerable additional on the dogs. 
There's not a 'Goldador' whatever that is, given a name, breeder who is ethical in the whole world. Period. Not a one.
And those 'breeders' - they ARE in it for $$. What would they spend it on? There's not much to spend $$ on in 'Goldadors'.


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## Jmar (Dec 4, 2018)

cwag said:


> I don't want you to feel like everyone is jumping on you, sometimes the forum members can be a little exuberant in their desire to educate. This is a link to a thread from 2015 but the links on some of the posts here give good insight to what breeder costs can actually run.
> 
> https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...er-breeder-puppy/348945-cost-breed-puppy.html


I appreciate you seeing where I was coming from. All positive intentions, I certainly didn't mean to upset anyone. Again, just giving my simple two cents. I was shocked to read any negative. It's WHY I came here, to be more educated on the breed and meet people who love them as much as we do! We waited on a Golden Rescue, and one day hope to go that route, but unfortunately were turned away because of my kids' ages (one who is two years old). Understandably, a REPUTABLE rescue would not allow it for liability purposes. We even searched PetFinder for months, and ONE Golden we came across, the rescue turned us down simply because of his size and they were afraid with small children. And just as you all know and love the dependable demeanor of a Golden, I researched and decided this breed (in my case mixed with Lab) was best for my family and our lifestyle. At least we can all agree that they really are a fantastic family dog, and though perhaps I still have a lot to learn, I was simply stating I didn't have a negative experience here. So yes, we had a good experience my "not-worth-$50" pup. Have a good day everyone!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention... just saying in N. Texas you can get a lab/golden mix all day long for around $50. If you happen to find one at City of Fort worth Animal control this price includes spay/neuter, city tag, shots & microchip. If you paid more than this then the breeder took advantage of you, just my opinion.


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## jlyn (Sep 18, 2019)

*Nothing but a puppy mill for Goldens*

We picked up our puppy when she was 8 weeks from the Elburn basement 2 years ago. Filthy house, dark, damp, unfinished basement--should have left right then and there but we waited so long for this puppy. She was a challenging puppy right from the start. We had a 'dog whisperer' do a house call, enrolled her in puppy kindergarten and further classes after that. She is a very smart dog--loving and obedient, even earned her Canine Good Citizen certification. So what is my complaint? It was stated on the papers she came with (the ones that said to feed her Puppy Chow soaked in water, massive quantity once per day) as they had been feeding her since weaning her at 4 weeks old! It was obvious from her behavior that she was taken from the mom way to early and did nothing but run wild with her littermates (11 in this litter). Recently, she has begun exhibiting symptoms of phobias and unwarranted anxiety which she never had before. We took her to a veterinary behaviorist who said it was not unusual for this to happen at this age to dogs that were improperly socialized as young pups. We love our dog--we take her everywhere, give her plenty of exercise, playdates, etc. but it breaks our hearts to see her go through this. We have gone the prescription medicine route which just made her lose her spark but still have phobias and will now be exploring acupuncture and Eastern herbal therapy. We should have waited for a breeder who home raised their pups, now we would just like to warn others out there to keep looking.


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