# Pushy Instructors?



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I was at a fun match yesterday between 6PM and 9PM... and a good portion of that time was spent sitting down and people-watching. And one thing I noticed was there was somebody there (I assume an instructor?) who was treating the fun match like a training session with a couple people. 

Meaning she kept interrupting the "judge" to get after the people (who I assume were her students). Or she would tell the judge to repeat various things so that the people could do what she was telling them to do. 

And after the people left the ring, she was pulling them aside and loudly telling them what they were doing wrong or going over how they needed to do X or Y. 

It may have been good advice, but I was just sitting there feeling for the trainers and for the judge. :no: With fun matches - the idea (I always thought) is you are going out there to train your dog and see where you are. The judge is generally keeping tabs on what you are doing wrong and will go over those issues after the runs. Or they will give you an opportunity to repeat something. *case in point, my guy was creeping on the stands in both runs we did. Both "judges" gave me tips on what to do to fix the issue before it becomes a BIG issue, which considering how my idiot feels about not being at my side, it doesn't take much*

And then if people outside the ring spot something, they generally wait until you come out and go over it privately with you. 

There's usually not somebody outside the ring shouting over the fence telling the judge to repeat or change their patterns... 

I'm just curious how often this happens and if this is generally OK with some people....? 

And I guess I'm blowing off steam too, because it would really drive me nuts if I were in the trainer's shoes.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I have seen instructors video tape matches and review them after the students ring time....but verbally interrupt and 'coach' from the sidelines...that is a new one for me.
Seems rather disrespectful to the judge and fellow handlers...


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LibertyME said:


> I have seen instructors video tape matches and review them after the students ring time....but verbally interrupt and 'coach' from the sidelines...that is a new one for me.
> Seems rather disrespectful to the judge and fellow handlers...


That's what I thought. And the thing that I saw was it was not helping those trainers. Both were unhappy during and after their runs because of the added stress. And because they were stressed, their dogs were stressed.


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

If I had a training instructor I admired that was at a match I would be greatful for any assistance. I don't think it's too unusual. Not at a sanctioned match, but at a C match or show and go, sure. The person playing "judge" often is doing no more than calling the pattern, and meeting any requests of the person running. Many times that person might have little to no actual experience at that level.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would have to say that it truly depends. I have judged many a match where the instructors gave pointers and the students gatefully accepted those pointers. I have also asked if the person in the ring wanted pointers or just wanted a run thru - many times their instructors or friends video tape. I have attended matches where my instructors and or the judges catch something that I am doing (ie; not pushing on the Outside Figure 8; someting I could have gone years without noticing).

It depends on what you are looking for I would guess - I use matches as learning expereinces and welcome the opportunity to repeat and work weak spots - as long as I remain within my time frame I can see no harm; as long as the instructor is constructive and helpful


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Many times that person might have little to no actual experience at that level.


At this club, I think most of the people who volunteer to do judge and steward duty are generally those who have a lot of experience at those really high levels (this was the utility ring where the interruptions happened). 

The judge who did a couple of those runs with the one person is an instructor, judge, does seminars...


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

When I am calling (and at least around here we refer to the person in the ring as a caller, not a judge, if it is just a fun match), I typically don't give advice unless it is asked for. The only exception is I will mention if the dog made a mistake that I know the handler could not see. My job as a caller is to do whatever the person asks me to do. If they ask for advice, I'm happy to give it, but otherwise I would never suggest doing something else to the person.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> When I am calling (and at least around here we refer to the person in the ring as a caller, not a judge, if it is just a fun match), I typically don't give advice unless it is asked for. The only exception is I will mention if the dog made a mistake that I know the handler could not see. My job as a caller is to do whatever the person asks me to do. If they ask for advice, I'm happy to give it, but otherwise I would never suggest doing something else to the person.


Oh I don't mind people giving advice in the ring. Most cases when I walk into the ring and the "judge" is somebody who normally doesn't teach classes, they may ask if I want them to give feedback or not. 

I always tell them "yes!".  Most cases, this is how I find out that my dog is lagging or forging or I'm rocking on my toes or stepping into my dog or whatever else. 

It's just the person outside the ring directing traffic that set off alarms in my brain.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yeah, pretty tacky. Unless they had spoken to the "judge" and okay'd it. Trust me you see all kinds.
The last time I went to a "match" show-n-go thing was a real eye opener. I was shocked at the archaic training things people did at this match, no qualms about doing them in public, either. OMG


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Maybe matches are viewed differently in different parts of the country, but I just don't see how this can be disrespectful to the person playing judge as long as it isn't said in a disrespectful manner. I (and most people I know) see fun matches as ring time for whatever purpose they need. If they want a straight run through, fine, if they the judge to call them ten minutes of directed jumping, that's what they've chosen to use the time for. Some people will have their instructors come into the ring and be the one to play judge, but many want the advantage of having a stranger in the ring, but still want their instructor's input.

So I don't see a problem with someone's instructor having them redo something a certain way, if the person in the ring wants that instructor's advice. I would find it much more disrespectful for the judge to tell someone to redo something if that person hadn't asked for their input.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I tend to agree with Jodie. Unless the handler told the instructor outside the ring to stop with the advice, I as the "judge" would have no issue. And just like there is no one way works for all dogs the same can be true of handlers. Some need to be gently corrected and some should be grabbed by the scruff once in a while.  (and I know that last part will upset some folks)


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I gave this more thought as I ran out to lunch...

And I guess I have seen coaching from outside the ring - in horse shows. This was the first time I've seen that at a fun match. They're not necessarily formal "faux shows", but haven't seen coaching from outside the ring.


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I wouldn't be where I am today without my tough as nails(with me) instructor. She fixes things as she sees them. Not afterwards when everything is a blur and you try to remember doing what she said. Specially in run thoughs at different locations. That was the purpose of going together is so she could "fix" me when I needed..And sometimes that was alot..LOL! If the person in the ring doesn't mind..I sure don't.I rather have the person's opinion I respect helping me fix the things right away so they do not become a habit!


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Can you loan her out?


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Can you loan her out?


Nope...LOL!


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Okay this does it... I am not commenting anymore... I am offically the "Thread killer" :bawling::--sad::--sad::--sad:


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> Okay this does it... I am not commenting anymore... I am offically the "Thread killer" :bawling::--sad::--sad::--sad:


No you don't get to take my title away that easy, just cuz you have cute little criers! :new (10):


----------



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> What's really embarrissing is when I am the last poster on several threads. I feel like when I post, it is the "post of death" to the thread. So, sorry, your thread will now come to an end. My bad.


This was from 2009!


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

but thread killers can be cute sometimes!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

*snurks* I got the answers that I wanted and moved on...

1. It depends on the level of tact (or loudness) of the coaching from outside the ring + if the judge and trainer are OK with it. I can totally agree with this, even though my idea of tact involves a lot more discretion.

2. Some people may be like me and _surprised_ that anyone would be OK with this. 

3. It's apparently a lot more common than I thought it was.  


*** This is random, but I realized something else last night when looking over the running list. One of the people who played ring steward and ran her own golden at the match and then later ogled with a couple other golden people over my guy who was doing his trademark splatted golden starfish pose - it was driving me nuts trying to figure out where I'd seen her before. And I felt funny about jumping in and asking, "Now who are you again?" Anyway - turns out she's a judge that I'd shown under before with my Danny and then Jacks last year. 

See. Those judges are training dog owners too...


----------

