# question about letting a dog hunt a mark



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

great question


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

you almost already know what my response is. haha but i feel that if the dog has taken the proper line to the mark fought the factors in place to the mark and the dog does not back side the gun then let them hunt. now if it is super hot and the dog had a big hunt on the first bird i might help just for the safety of the dog but that is about it.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Well, today was a good day for him, did well and brought back appropriately. But you know how he gets, Ben, he does this when things get tougher and then he corrects himself after a few days. I'm just worried he is at the age now where he should just stay on line. I guess I should stay with my gut and let him work it out. This is probably one of my biggest insecurity issues with him, is how much I let him hunt.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Just wanting your opinion/advice on something. So Proof was lining really good but now his marks are getting progressively harder with more concept and/or length. He generally takes the line through whatever cover etc is out there but about ten feet in maybe veers a bit and then loses track of the bird. He doesn't trust himself and will pass it up when hes nearly right on it and then proceed to make big loops around where he is.
> 
> In the past I'd let him work it out and then he'd start lining again. He's done this pattern twice so I know that its just the added concept that makes him lose his confidence in where he thought the bird landed. After a few repetitions of working it out he realizes it is always falls where he thought. This kind of how I know when he is ready to move on, he stops hunting things up and starts lining them.
> 
> ...


Well, it depends (how's that for a non-answer!).
I like to let a dog hunt so long as he's pretty much in the right region ... he's got to learn that perseverance pays off. Plus, he learns stuff by hunting, such as how to use the wind, that the bird/bumper will be somewhere around the gunner (or retired station), etc.
Of course, a hunt that causes him to get overheated must be avoided (as indicated by krazybronco2), or one that extends 100 yards away from the area of the fall may just waste time and could cause him to start losing confidence ... this is where reading your dog (a topic which I touched one a while back) is absolutely essential.
Plus, I've seen dogs that just got into the habit of hunting and not going straight to the mark even if they know exactly where it is ... this is particularly annoying! 
If necessary, you can fire drill him to get him through the factor and straight to the mark, just don't do it so many times that he gets used to seeing a second or third bumper while en route.
FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

awww that is what I worry about is that he'd get used to waiting on a bumper and not working harder at marking. 

He doesn't hunt up 100 yards away its usually within 20 yards sometimes he can get wonky and go about 40 yards out but not today and that was more when he was 4 to 5 months old. Now when I did rerun the marks after putting him up as a double he lined those perfectly so he paid better attention and was sure of himself going out there.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Hard to say without seeing the dog. It could be alot of things, off the top of my head...

1) dew on the tall grass in the morning?
2)moving too fast on your concepts
3)Dog giving you the finger, Young dogs as yours sometimes like to head to AOF and then muck around for awhile. Then get the bird when there ready.
4) blinking the bird

Time to read the dog. 
My guess is #3, If its on the first mark that he puts up his biggests hunts, then just pick him up and put him in the truck. He will learn quickly that its work time not play time
8 months old can be a challenging time.

I could be way off, just my 2¢


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Yeah I know those dogs you are talking about. I have one of them, ha ha, and I gave up on training her for it. Proof is not like that. I don't think I've seen a dog more businesslike. He goes out there on a mission and his hunt shows it. I think it just a confidence thing or something.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

How about the Bill Hillmann Y drill? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-W0p-c2_iw

MOP,
Can you get a gunner to film your guy as he's running out and to the bird? Maybe if you saw the film it might give you a better idea what he's actually doing out there?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I could try that!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

OK - I hesitated in posting but here we go. I think I know exactly what you are talking about. I have tried a white bucket behind the AOF of marks over 100 yards. That is instead of salting the area and the dog to keep focus on the mark. That was after fire drilling. The problem with these dogs is that they are so smart and so quick, after just a coupe fire drilling the mark Belle figured out that the does not have to hunt instead she started going to the bird boy. The white bucket has helped a lot. I also let her hunt as long as she is in the AOF. If her hunt is more than 20% diameter around the AOF I raise my hand for help. 
This last weekend I had a sleeping bird boy who threw the pigeon in the soy bean field. And that was only a 65 yard mark. She had to be helped. We did the 125 mark with the bucket and then without the bucket. 

I honestly do not know if these guys are just too fast for their own good, if it is a maturing issue, a combination of the two or something else.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

How tight is the hunt he puts up?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

MoP

You have a problem if the dog doesn't find the bird. You have a problem if the dog gives up his hunt. You have a problem if the dog widens the area of his search too much.

In short, I do not think you have a problem but would like to see video.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

My 2 cents.
Define your AOF before you send. If the dog is putting up an intelligent hunt, staying in the AOF and is not in danger of over heating then let him hunt.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I'm a big believer in letting them work it out. HOWEVER please give them the benefit of being able to mark the gun and the fall by using stickmen/holding blinds with your wingers (nothing is so pointless to me as a naked winger in a field), make your marking object visible (large white bumper or bird) and be sure to only use birds in cover. I HATE when people throw bumpers in cover, then blame the dog for not marking well or having a huge hunt.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I have a question about the naked wingers in the field. why is this bad? Proof has had to hunt in the past regardless of the bird boy in white and when we used birds. Yesterday was the first time I'd used 'naked" wingers so I don't think that was his sole problem but perhaps it was. But how do they learn to mark off the bird if they only ever have a white marker for this? And how do they move to retired guns if they always have something out there at training to mark off? I guess I just thought mixing it up sometimes would be a good idea? I don't do this often, yesterday was the first time in a long time. I know that I haven't hurt his training but if it is a bad thing I won't do it anymore. 

And Claudia, yes Proof learned to mark off the gun pretty much at ten weeks, ha ha! But he doesn't do a long enough hunt to worry about fire drilling or salting it as of right now (but that could change at any training day of course.) At about 4 to 5 months old he would get there and then go crazy if he didn't see it right where he thought it was and then take off all over the place so we did do fire drill and that helped. Now he has learned to hunt for it in the area that he went to and to turn on his nose when he gets there. So that is progress in my opinion. Yesterday his hunt lasted probably a minute and they were really in the general area. I'm starting to think I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. I just worry that he isn't lining all the way to bird sometimes and he should be at his age to keep him on the field track.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> ........ Yesterday his hunt lasted probably a minute and they were really in the general area. I'm starting to think I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. I just worry that he isn't lining all the way to bird sometimes and he should be at his age to keep him on the field track.


That is exactly what Belle does. She starts hunting short of the bird as she loses focus. Have the bird boy watch his face as he goes to the bird. Better, have the bird boy take a video of him to the bird. The white bucket, which you cannot see from the line helps them keep focus all the way to the bird. 
Once they learn to focus all the way you remove the bucket.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Hmmm I will try to get video out there. Proof doesn't stop short he overruns it typically.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Hmmm I will try to get video out there. Proof doesn't stop short he overruns it typically.


Hmmm, I have heard that his grandpa, on his sire's side, overran marks by a mile until he turned about 10 - 12 months old. 
I bet it works out just fine!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

There's also a drill that I picked up from somewhere which helps the pup learn the gunner-bird relationship.
Proof is on line and watching; BB throws the mark; mark hits the ground; BB goes out and picks up the mark; BB returns to station; BB throws the mark again; Proof goes out and drills the mark.
As with the fire drill, I'd not overdo this drill because they can become a bit too gunner dependent, but it's great to help the dogs hone their marking skills and learn the above-referenced relationship.
FTGoldens


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I vote mole hill. 
He is not going to step on every mark. Proof is just working out how to put up a effective hunt. I would just enter what happened in my training log and do a similar setup in a few days. If he has trouble again I would probably break it down for him to teach it then build it back from there. 
It sounds like your young hotshot is coming right along. What Fun!!!!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

LOL yeah he is a pistol alright, Holly. 

You know that is a good idea about the BB going out and doing that and it is two fold if you ask me. He will have to really be steady at the line. I can work on that "sit" your butt down no matter what if he tries to move, which he does do. 

He has gotten SO MUCH better at not overrunning marks and now he overruns them by a few yards and then goes on to hunt whereas before he'd overrun them ten or twenty yards and then get all squirely trying to figure out what he did. Now, he stops and knows he missed it but his hunt is still border line loose for my tastes. I will keep that in check. 

As long as this is not detrimental to his career and he is staying on track then I'll chalk it up to the natural process and go with my gut to let him hunt it out. I just worry because I don't have a lot of field dogs at his age to compare him to so I just don't know. 

This thread has given me a lot to try and think about. Thanks everyone, just what I needed!


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

How do you typically train?
Do you set up a test and run it as singles first? If the dog has difficulty on a mark, do you run it again right away?
Do you finish the day by running the whole concept clean?
Then come back the next day and "Proof" it?

Or are you just setting up a test and going for it right off the bat?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I generally just work on concepts that they need to learn. I try to keep the focus on that one concept so if they mess up on something that wasn't a part of the concept that I was really focusing on then I handle the corrections differently. I will come back and rerun the marks by the end if there was an exceptionally big issue. And if there is then that issue will be worked on for awhile until we can move to the next concept. 
Now, Proof has a WC coming up so I did set up a WC double to see how that would go and where he is at. I got my answers and know what to work on until I retest him at a later date.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

i happen to know a very old school trainer that said proof has what it takes to play the big dog games. when you get Hugh Arthur to say those things you are on the right track and i happen to know a black dog that will be right behind proof.


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