# *WARNING* Goldens R 4 Lovin and Ann Floerke Sold Puppy with Verified Genetic Disease



## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

I purchased an English Cream Golden retriever from Ann Floerke the breeder at Goldens R 4 Lovin in Southern California. I lost my previous golden to cancer at age 10, so I decided I should probably go with a "reputable" breeder. Ann stated that all of her dogs have OFA certifications and would guarantee against genetic diseases. I purchased my puppy in October of 2017 and took him home at 7 weeks. However at almost 2 years old my puppy has been diagnosed with elbow dysplasia in both elbows and genetic disorders in both shoulders. 

My puppy started to limp after playing with another dog, no rough housing, just chasing each other around like dogs do. I took him to my normal vet and after the x-rays were done the vet stated it looked like possible elbow dysplasia but referred me to a top orthopedic surgeon in the area. After a very expensive CT scan (which she told me was a waste of money), it was proven that my puppy has elbow dysplasia in both elbows and genetic disorders in both shoulders. 

I reached out kindly to ask her to consider a refund so I could afford to have the necessary surgery done on his left leg, which is the worse of the two. She continually told me how vets are out to scam people and I should have contacted her first! That's ridiculous, she's not a vet or a orthopedic surgeon. She also keeps denying, even after I sent her the CT summary proving genetic disorders that it's not true. Ann is determined to blame his lameness on an injury from playing with other dogs, the reason I originally took him to the vet. 

All I was hoping was that she would do the right thing and refund my purchase price that would go exclusively towards the surgery but she is calling me a bully and a scammer. 

So I'm reaching out to anyone considering this breeder Ann Floerke from Goldens R 4 Lovin, unless you want to take the risk of genetic defects for a really expensive English Cream you should look to someone else who actually cares about her customers and their companions health. 

I'm in the process of retaining an attorney to take her to court under the California Pet Lemon Law, in which she should be liable for reimbursement for treatment up to 150% of the purchase price. I had explained to her this is my last resort and was hoping to resolve it kindly and in a civil manner, but when she calls me a bully and scammer that was enough for me. Before this she had been kind when kept in touch and I sent her photos of my boy, but Ann has become the bully. 

If anyone else has had issues with this breeder Ann Floerke from Goldens R 4 Lovin please PM me. 

Thank you.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

First, I am so sorry your going through this. I know what it feels like. My puppy came from a long line of performance dogs with all the certifications. I verified them. I was told when he was 7-8 months old that he had genetic sesamoid malformation in both front feet, and blunt heads on his elbows via CT Scan results at Univ of Penn. The elbows are questionable due to the fact that he was seven months old and they aren't developed completely, and the problem isn't a typical issue with the elbows. My biggest problem was that both of his feet where painful and it was a very sad thing to see. Univ of Penn suggested we start with surgery on both front feet, and follow with elbow surgery. I had already spent over $3500 just on the testing. I even had 3D renderings done of his feet at their recommendation to assist in diagnosing the issue. It was rare in a Golden puppy. My surgical bill with them if I did both surgeries, feet and elbows, would have been well over $10,000. 

I couldn't imagine doing all of that to a puppy and sought many other medical opinions. I ended up at VOSM (Veterinary Orthopedic Sports Medicine). To date we have done no surgeries. My puppy is limp free from only doing an extensive rehab program. (It took 4 months) They said they would absolutely never consider operating on his feet, and his elbows are questionable. We will do new X-Rays at 2 years of age and see what they show. They aren't sure that he will pass or fail the OFA's, but he is not symptomatic. I will never breed him. He will never be the field trial dog that we had dreams of him being, but he is a healthy puppy. He's now almost 16 months old and you would never know we had gone through everything we went through. My point here I guess is don't rush into anything. Univ of Penn is well respected, but I am sure glad I kept looking for another opinion. 

As far as your breeder I completely understand your frustration. My little guy was at a private trainer when all this happened and I was being told he was a rock star performer. We had huge hopes for him, but first he was a pet and we loved him. My breeder suggested putting him to sleep when I sent him copies of all of our medical documents. He was having another litter from a repeat breeding in the Spring. He never said it but I'm pretty sure that was his offer for a replacement. I also found out one of the puppies from the litter had pituitary dwarfism, which is definitely hereditary.

In my case it would all eventually come down to my contract if I pursued it. I won't pursue anything. I've had time to think about it and have realized some things. First, feet aren't covered under my contract. If he fails elbows by OFA I am due a replacement. He may pass OFA elbows according to several ortho vets. I would be due nothing. If I wanted to at that point I could contact the breeder and have his registration changed from "limited" to "full" per my contract. My contract states that as long as he's passed hips, elbows, eyes, and heart and obtained a title I can have full registration at age 2. I will have all of that done plus more if he passes elbows. I've already had DNA testing done on him for my own information. I will not be contacting the breeder for my full registration. It's not worth it. I love him, but I would never breed him. I know something went wrong somewhere in the genetics. I wouldn't want to risk going through this pain again myself, or putting anyone else through it. 

OFA does not accept CT Scan results. It will all depend on what the x-rays show. I'm praying with everything in me his elbows pass at age 2. It has nothing to do with the breeder, or being owed a single thing. It has nothing to do with being able to breed him. I just want the peace of mind of knowing they pass. I've been through so much with this little guy. He is now healthy.

This summer he's earned his CGC, a JR Dock title, and a SR Dock title. He's still my little rock star, he just isn't doing it in field work. I'm no longer upset with the breeder. I will not support him by accepting another puppy from him, but I don't believe he set out to do anything wrong. I think something went wrong. Dogs are living things and we can't hold them to guarantees. Contract's normally state you are due a replacement puppy. That is useless once you fall in love with your dog. I wish he'd offered half my money back toward vet bills, but he wasn't going to do that. I wish I would have bought from a breeder that would have never said "I think your going to have to put him to sleep", but I did. That is what damaged my relationship with the breeder the most, at a time I needed hope and encouragement I was told the one thing that I never wanted to hear. Maybe he was being practical, but what if I'd listened? To date it's cost me about another $1000 and I have a healthy dog. That is why I will change my requirements before I purchase another puppy.

I know this isn't why you put this post out here, but I do understand how you feel. Before you cost yourself more money, and put yourself through more pain take some time and think it through. Before you operate, get more then one surgical opinion and see a rehab specialist in conjunction with your surgical consult if possible. 

Do a K9Data page for your pup. It will document it in the line so others can see that there may be a problem. Puppies that come from OFA cleared parents can still have problems. I wish it was a guarantee, but the more vets you go to the more you will realize it's just a tool to help us reduce the problems. Trust me I will never buy a puppy without every clearance being there. I value them more now then I ever did before, and I thought they were extremely important before. The only solace I got out of the situation with the breeder is that they didn't do a repeat breeding. They bred the same male to a different female. I still would have never done that, but at least I made them think about it. 

I wish you and your puppy all the best.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I am really sorry for all you and your pup are going through. I came to this forum a few years ago feeling exactly as you do and really glad you made a post. Only thing different is I did my homework, I checked for clearances, I looked for reviews, I knew the bloodline and the dam's breeder. We don't have a lemon law in this state or the state the breeder was in. But I did file formal complaints with the USDA, OFA, AKC and the state for selling underage, sick puppies. 
Basically it took me a very long time to work through my anger and disappointment. A refund was not offered but a replacement puppy was. Guessing she would have just resold her as once I had her spayed she offered me another puppy without returning my girl... she was 2 by this time.
Bottom line is I will NEVER give this breeder a recommendation. While compensation or purchase price refund would have been the right thing for her to do it was not offered nor asked for. I had the choice to return the pup and once that decision was made... well it was all on me. 

Do what you need to do, posting is certainly a good way to make potential buyers aware before making a purchase. If your contract allows you to seek legal action and that's the route you want to take, that is your choice. Just remember, even if you get a judge to agree with you doesn't mean you will actually have a check in hand... just a judgement. Is being right really worth this much of your life?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I would have to go through the legal action as well only because if you don't what's to stop these breeders from just continuing to do this to more and more people. Taking no action just empowers these horrible people from ruining the breed even more. Plus the more judgements the more easily people will find out the truth of these pathetic breeders.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

As for retaining an attorney, you might be better off taking the breeder to small claims court without a lawyer. The "puppy lemon law" does provide for recovery of reasonable attorneys fees, but only if the court finds that the breeder acted in "bad faith," and that can be a difficult hurdle sometimes, especially since courts are not conversant in such issues, and they tend to be the purview of experts. Most likely, you'd have to bear that cost yourself.

The law also has some pretty strict time limits. Like, a vet has to discover the problem within 15 days of purchase, or for a congenital condition before the dog is 1 year old, and then there are notice and other time limits that have to be accomplished within 5 or 10 days, depending on what it is. So, since the elbow dysplasia wasn't discovered until almost 2 years old, that statute might not be of help. I think. I haven't read the statute in a long time. But I think I'm right on that. Check for yourself, though.

However, if you have a contract with a health guarantee for elbow dysplasia, you might still have a remedy, depending on what the contract says.

Elbow dysplasia can occur no matter how careful a breeder is. Having ED is not an indication that the breeder did anything wrong. I don't know what shoulder genetic disorders you're referring to, so can't comment. What is wrong with the shoulders?

I agree that for elbow dysplasia the CT scan is a waste of money. You just need a good x-ray. Since I don't know what the shoulder issue is, perhaps it was needed for that, I can't say.

I second Puddles' idea of doing a K9data page for your pup. That way, every Golden breeder and person gets to see and know.

In any event, I wish you good luck with this breeder, and I'm sorry you're going through it.


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. Yes the CA Puppy Lemon Law is for 1 year or younger, however I may be able to still get some compensation through civil action which I am actively working on. I'll take the suggestions of the k9data page and do that, along with complaints to the appropriate organizations. 

She did sell me my boy at 7 weeks old, so that's another recourse I'll be looking into.

Thanks all!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Something I'm not sure you heard from my post... you will have a hard time in court because you made the choice to use a breeder that did not do health clearances. Unless you have a contract that clearly states they guarantee against hip/elbow dysplasia or any specific hereditary issue, within a certain time frame... well the court is going to side with the breeder and you will be out attorney fees and court cost.... her's and yours.

Even if the judge feels your pain and gives you a judgement doesn't mean the breeder is going to pay. This means you will constantly be paying for a court appearance in an attempt to get her to make good on the judgement.

I'm not saying don't file. Just saying the courts are going to look at both sides without emotion. You have some responsibilities in this transaction as well. 

My guess would be if the breeder is not quality enough to care about the pups she produces by getting health clearances she isn't going to give you a dime.... even if the courts tell her to. So if you are truly seeking compensation to help in the pups health your dollars could be better spent on the vet than the courts.


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

So sorry you are having to go through this. You are heartbroken that your pup is having to endure his pain and then being told by your breeder that you are to blame and denying any responsibility is horrible. People like this have no business breeding dogs. I agree that you do need to do something to get the word out that your breeder is breeding irresponsibly and I know that it may make you feel better if you can pursue legal action. It's hard to predict if you will win your case and you could end up with more financial hardship which would bring more stress. I would find any outlet possible to air your complaints on the internet to make others aware. Good luck in whichever route you decide to take.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

1bigpea, you said your puppy has "genetic disorders in both shoulders." I'm asking for the third time now. What genetic disorders in both shoulders does your puppy have?


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

Did you bother to verify health clearances of the sire and dam? 

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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

Guess the OP doesn't want to answer the question. 

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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

forgop said:


> Guess the OP doesn't want to answer the question.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Member has not been back on since 8/2/19


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I suspect this was a post and drop a load- and go somewhere else and do damage. Not that I think she's wrong to be upset w a less-than breeder. But if she would answer questions it would actually bring this up on google even more...


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> I suspect this was a post and drop a load- and go somewhere else and do damage. Not that I think she's wrong to be upset w a less-than breeder. But if she would answer questions it would actually bring this up on google even more...


Problem is some people believe they have zero accountability in doing their own homework. Are breeders to be trusted more than a car salesman? No. 

Unless you personally verify the pedigree of the sire/dam and OFA for every potential puppy, don't cry after the fact. Everyone wants cheap puppies and they want them now. Besides, there's no certainty the hips were a true genetic condition as you can have parents that pass clearances, yet still produce pups that fail. 

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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

forgop said:


> Are breeders to be trusted more than a car salesman? No.


While _caveat emptor_ is always a good approach, as a breeder I find that sentence pretty offensive. If I tell you something relating to my dogs or breeding program you can trust it 100%. I'm not at all offended if you check it out. That's just good practice. But not to be trusted more than a car salesman? That's pretty low. You have a very low opinion of breeders. I can only assume you don't know any decent hobby breeders.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> While _caveat emptor_ is always a good approach, as a breeder I find that sentence pretty offensive. If I tell you something relating to my dogs or breeding program you can trust it 100%. I'm not at all offended if you check it out. That's just good practice. But not to be trusted more than a car salesman? That's pretty low. You have a very low opinion of breeders. I can only assume you don't know any decent hobby breeders.


Every breed is full of BYB and puppy mills that do no testing and sell a pup to the first buyer with money in hand. Just because you do something doesn't mean everyone else does it and every buyer has a duty to do their homework until the breeder has proven themselves. Personally, I'd welcome people to go look up the clearances because it backs up what you say and shows they're willing to do some homework themselves. Dogs in general would be much better off today if every buyer would take the 5 minutes to look up the clearances of any litter because it would put an end to the "used car salesmen" dominating the market today. 



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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

forgop said:


> Every breed is full of BYB and puppy mills that do no testing and sell a pup to the first buyer with money in hand. Just because you do something doesn't mean everyone else does it and every buyer has a duty to do their homework until the breeder has proven themselves. Personally, I'd welcome people to go look up the clearances because it backs up what you say and shows they're willing to do some homework themselves. Dogs in general would be much better off today if every buyer would take the 5 minutes to look up the clearances of any litter because it would put an end to the "used car salesmen" dominating the market today.


You have a very unfortunate attitude about breeders. With my puppy buyers, we are in a relationship of trust. People come to me because they know they can trust me. It's not anything like buying a car. If we don't trust each other -- and it definitely goes both ways -- then no puppy changes hands. And to be honest, I probably wouldn't sell a puppy to someone with your attitude. If you don't trust me and I don't trust you, then I'd have no reason to place a precious life with you. I'm responsible for that life, for its entire life. I'm going to find the very best home possible for that puppy, and that's probably not with a suspicious home. Plus, if you don't trust me, I just don't want to sell you a puppy. Too much potential for problems from you down the line. It comes under the heading of life is too short. And it's not as if hobby breeders have trouble selling puppies. We can afford to be choosey. 

AS I SAID, it's good to check clearances and everyone should do it. We agree on that. Indeed, that's something I'd do before I even had a real conversation with a breeder. But if you're lumping the breeders here in with BYBs and puppy mills in terms of trust, you have a wild misunderstanding of what we do and who we are. The reason you buy a puppy from us is because you CAN trust us.

I'm guessing you developed your attitude by dealing with the wrong sort of dog breeders, so now you look at all breeders with a jaundiced eye. Once bitten, twice shy, right? Well, I hope you deal with people who change your mind on this. Unless you just look at the entire world with suspicion. If you're that kind of person, your comment is about every relationship, not just breeders.


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

DanaRuns said:


> 1bigpea, you said your puppy has "genetic disorders in both shoulders." I'm asking for the third time now. What genetic disorders in both shoulders does your puppy have?


Sorry for the late response, I have a busy life. See my most recent post on this thread.


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

forgop said:


> Guess the OP doesn't want to answer the question.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


See my most recent post...sorry for the delay. I am extremely busy.


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> I suspect this was a post and drop a load- and go somewhere else and do damage. Not that I think she's wrong to be upset w a less-than breeder. But if she would answer questions it would actually bring this up on google even more...


Thanks for your belief in humanity. 0

*POSTED BELOW IS WHAT I SENT THE BREEDER ANN FLOERKE, BREEDER DBA GOLDEN'S R 4 LOVIN & LAB'S R 4 LOVING. SHE HAS DENIED IT'S GENETIC. I WOULD DISAGREE
*
*SORRY IT'S A COPY AND PASTE, I TRIED TO CLEAN IT UP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FOR EASY READING. I HOPE THIS HELPS ANYONE LOOKING FOR THEIR NEXT LOVE OF LIFE*

Master Problems
Lameness Forelimb
Left Forelimb
Recheck Evaluation
07-31-2019

UPDATE FOLLOWING CT REVIEW
CT scan was performed of the shoulders and elbows on 7/29/19. In conclusion, bilateral elbow dysplasia was identified with fragmented medial coronoid process in the left elbow and degeneration of bone in the medial left humeral condyle. The right elbow has similar changes but is clinically asymptomatic at this time.

The left and right shoulders have mild degenerative osteophytes present bilaterally. They both contain variation in subchondral bone density within the humeral heads with potentially evolving subchondral bone cyst within the right shoulder. There is no overt subchondral bone defect, these findings are consistent with a variation of shoulder osteochondrosis (OCD without an actual flap). It is not likely that these lesions are clinically consequential at this time.

*The CT clearly shows there are bilateral dysplastic developmental changes of the shoulders and elbows. In particular the elbows, but the shoulders as well would be considered to very likely have a genetic component. I have instructed that the owner inform the breeder regarding this. A suggestion was made to submit radiographs to OFA for review. I think it absolutely certain that CT is a much superior modality, not commonly performed in routine screening because of the cost associated with it, but it is undoubtedly the gold standard 
for evaluating dysplastic and degenerative changes within joints.

There is absolutely no indication to submit further radiographs for review given the quality and detail of the images already produced. If the breeder wishes to obtain a second opinion I would suggest contacting any board-certified radiologist or surgeon to review the material that has been produced. Undoubtedly the same conclusions would be reached that this is a developmental disorder with a genetic component.*
We would be happy to facilitate transfer of information to any chosen specialist for review. The original radiographs that were taken by rDVM were not taken in such a manner that they could be submitted to OFA. 

*Clearly OFA radiographs are not sufficiently sensitive to detect elbow changes that may be present in dogs who carry the genetics for elbow dysplasia. While they are commonly used, unfortunately they are not an absolute test for this concept.*
I discussed surgical management of this patient with the owner. At this time I have recommended pursuing arthroscopic surgery for the left clinically affected elbow; this will be scheduled for a future date.


Tony Cambridge B.V.M.S.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Surgeons


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> Member has not been back on since 8/2/19



Because I'm extremely busy with work and life, dealing with a puppy with a lame left leg, should I go on?


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

DanaRuns said:


> As for retaining an attorney, you might be better off taking the breeder to small claims court without a lawyer. The "puppy lemon law" does provide for recovery of reasonable attorneys fees, but only if the court finds that the breeder acted in "bad faith," and that can be a difficult hurdle sometimes, especially since courts are not conversant in such issues, and they tend to be the purview of experts. Most likely, you'd have to bear that cost yourself.
> 
> The law also has some pretty strict time limits. Like, a vet has to discover the problem within 15 days of purchase, or for a congenital condition before the dog is 1 year old, and then there are notice and other time limits that have to be accomplished within 5 or 10 days, depending on what it is. So, since the elbow dysplasia wasn't discovered until almost 2 years old, that statute might not be of help. I think. I haven't read the statute in a long time. But I think I'm right on that. Check for yourself, though.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this reply. However an x-ray can not always detect dysplasia. However I do appreciate your thoughts and response and yes small claims court is next...that is what I have been advised to do.


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

forgop said:


> Did you bother to verify health clearances of the sire and dam?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Yes, she provided documentation that's why I went with her for my boy. Yet that does not mean it's not possible for a pup to be born with genetic diseases.


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

OK, I posted this information in a response to another member, but here is the Clinical Summary from a very highly regarded Orthopedic Surgeon. His colleagues and the radiologists all agree this is genetic.

*POSTED BELOW IS WHAT I SENT THE BREEDER ANN FLOERKE, BREEDER DBA GOLDEN'S R 4 LOVIN & LAB'S R 4 LOVING. SHE HAS DENIED IT'S GENETIC. I WOULD DISAGREE
*
*SORRY IT'S A COPY AND PASTE, I TRIED TO CLEAN IT UP AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FOR EASY READING. I HOPE THIS HELPS ANYONE LOOKING FOR THEIR NEXT LOVE OF LIFE*

Master Problems
Lameness Forelimb
Left Forelimb
Recheck Evaluation
07-31-2019

UPDATE FOLLOWING CT REVIEW
CT scan was performed of the shoulders and elbows on 7/29/19. In conclusion, bilateral elbow dysplasia was identified with fragmented medial coronoid process in the left elbow and degeneration of bone in the medial left humeral condyle. The right elbow has similar changes but is clinically asymptomatic at this time.

The left and right shoulders have mild degenerative osteophytes present bilaterally. They both contain variation in subchondral bone density within the humeral heads with potentially evolving subchondral bone cyst within the right shoulder. There is no overt subchondral bone defect, these findings are consistent with a variation of shoulder osteochondrosis (OCD without an actual flap). It is not likely that these lesions are clinically consequential at this time.

*The CT clearly shows there are bilateral dysplastic developmental changes of the shoulders and elbows. In particular the elbows, but the shoulders as well would be considered to very likely have a genetic component. I have instructed that the owner inform the breeder regarding this. A suggestion was made to submit radiographs to OFA for review. I think it absolutely certain that CT is a much superior modality, not commonly performed in routine screening because of the cost associated with it, but it is undoubtedly the gold standard 
for evaluating dysplastic and degenerative changes within joints.

There is absolutely no indication to submit further radiographs for review given the quality and detail of the images already produced. If the breeder wishes to obtain a second opinion I would suggest contacting any board-certified radiologist or surgeon to review the material that has been produced. Undoubtedly the same conclusions would be reached that this is a developmental disorder with a genetic component.*
We would be happy to facilitate transfer of information to any chosen specialist for review. The original radiographs that were taken by rDVM were not taken in such a manner that they could be submitted to OFA. 

*Clearly OFA radiographs are not sufficiently sensitive to detect elbow changes that may be present in dogs who carry the genetics for elbow dysplasia. While they are commonly used, unfortunately they are not an absolute test for this concept.*
I discussed surgical management of this patient with the owner. At this time I have recommended pursuing arthroscopic surgery for the left clinically affected elbow; this will be scheduled for a future date.


Tony Cambridge B.V.M.S.
Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Surgeons


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

forgop said:


> Problem is some people believe they have zero accountability in doing their own homework. Are breeders to be trusted more than a car salesman? No.
> 
> Unless you personally verify the pedigree of the sire/dam and OFA for every potential puppy, don't cry after the fact. Everyone wants cheap puppies and they want them now. Besides, there's no certainty the hips were a true genetic condition as you can have parents that pass clearances, yet still produce pups that fail.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



So you put me in the basket of "believing I have zero accountability"? WOW. If you only knew how many people everyday count on me, it would blow your mind my friend.

I did my homework, why else would I spend so much money on a puppy?? She had OFA certs which obviously meant nothing which you agree with. Also, he most certainly wasn't "cheap" unless you consider in the thousands of dollars, cheap? I'm not "crying after the fact" as you state. Maybe you should give people the benefit of the doubt.

I hope you have a nice night FORGOP.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> You have a very unfortunate attitude about breeders. With my puppy buyers, we are in a relationship of trust. People come to me because they know they can trust me. It's not anything like buying a car. If we don't trust each other -- and it definitely goes both ways -- then no puppy changes hands. And to be honest, I probably wouldn't sell a puppy to someone with your attitude. If you don't trust me and I don't trust you, then I'd have no reason to place a precious life with you. I'm responsible for that life, for its entire life. I'm going to find the very best home possible for that puppy, and that's probably not with a suspicious home. Plus, if you don't trust me, I just don't want to sell you a puppy. Too much potential for problems from you down the line. It comes under the heading of life is too short. And it's not as if hobby breeders have trouble selling puppies. We can afford to be choosey.
> 
> AS I SAID, it's good to check clearances and everyone should do it. We agree on that. Indeed, that's something I'd do before I even had a real conversation with a breeder. But if you're lumping the breeders here in with BYBs and puppy mills in terms of trust, you have a wild misunderstanding of what we do and who we are. The reason you buy a puppy from us is because you CAN trust us.
> 
> I'm guessing you developed your attitude by dealing with the wrong sort of dog breeders, so now you look at all breeders with a jaundiced eye. Once bitten, twice shy, right? Well, I hope you deal with people who change your mind on this. Unless you just look at the entire world with suspicion. If you're that kind of person, your comment is about every relationship, not just breeders.


I have had a great experience with my breeder and things have been great as I took home 3 puppies from her. She asked some time back if I'd write a referral to send to potential buyers and it was nothing short of an overwhelming referral. She's been helpful beyond belief, but when I frequent Facebook groups and forums, you recognize there are a lot of breeders that aren't like her. Thus, it's always best to CYA as the buyer. 

I've gotten to meet a few breeders and learn of other reputable breeders by name that I know I can trust. Still, I'm gonna view the clearances myself because I want that reassurance. I totally get that it takes trust to place a puppy, but the breeders I'm speaking about don't care about that. All they do is supply their pups to the first buyer with no regard for being there as a resource during the life of their dog. You're not the type of breeder that should worry about those types of breeders being a reflection of yourself. 

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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

1bigpea said:


> So you put me in the basket of "believing I have zero accountability"? WOW. If you only knew how many people everyday count on me, it would blow your mind my friend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Reading comprehension wasn't one of your strong points, was it? Nowhere did I say you bought a cheap puppy or anything like it. I was making a general statement about the number of buyers who want the cheap puppies with no wait and when something bad happens, it's always the breeder's fault. 

Puppies born to parents with the clearances will not be without some risk to having an issue later in life. It's not 100% avoidable because I know of breeders that do all health testing and will still have puppies that mature and fail. Can you say with any degree of certainty that it was genetic? No. 

There are genetics and environmental factors at hand and being able to prove it's genetic is based upon opinion, not facts. But you're running with opinions and passing them off as facts. 

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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

forgop said:


> Reading comprehension wasn't one of your strong points, was it? Nowhere did I say you bought a cheap puppy or anything like it. I was making a general statement about the number of buyers who want the cheap puppies with no wait and when something bad happens, it's always the breeder's fault.
> 
> Puppies born to parents with the clearances will not be without some risk to having an issue later in life. It's not 100% avoidable because I know of breeders that do all health testing and will still have puppies that mature and fail. Can you say with any degree of certainty that it was genetic? No.
> 
> ...


Really FORGOP, you respond by putting me down as reading comprehension isn't my strong point? Man alive! You must feel really great about yourself with that line!


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

1bigpea said:


> Really FORGOP, you respond by putting me down as reading comprehension isn't my strong point? Man alive! You must feel really great about yourself with that line!


Yet you are here to put down the breeder who you proclaim had done all the clearances. But if that's all you got from my replies, I'm just thankful I'm not your breeder. 


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

forgop said:


> Yet you are here to put down the breeder who you proclaim had done all the clearances. But if that's all you got from my replies, *I'm just thankful I'm not your breeder.*
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Me too. 

Your own words..."as you can have parents that pass clearances, yet still produce pups that fail."


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Just a reminder everyone, please keep the Forum rules in mind when posting- *#13* in particular. 

https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

What documentation did the breeder provide you? I think what people are wondering is did you go to OFA and verify the info provided. People that understand the info posted offer opinions on pedigrees daily to help people know what they are buying.

Hips & elbows are sent to and only received by a Vet./clinic Hearts and eyes it's up to the owner/breeder to send them in. If she had documentation it should be listed on the OFA database for all to see. So far you have not offered any pedigree information to validate her claims.

I got blasted too when I posted my less than stellar breeder, that threatened to take my puppy, threatened me with a law suit and sent hate mail for weeks. But my response was to post the evidence. So if you want to share your experience with this breeder, warn people about your experience with this breeder... back it up with proof.

If you would share the akc # for sire and dam you would get far more support from the forum. Without it ... well it comes down to a he said, she said of your own opinion.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Dysplasia is a risk in every puppy. Of course, you try to hedge your bets by getting a puppy with many generations of clearances behind it, but there is still no guarantee. It can -- and does -- happen in the most carefully bred litters.

Food has an influence, too. Feeding a puppy food that is too high in protein can lead to dysplasia.

Environment is a factor, as well. Puppies who are constantly stressing joints with hilly or hard terrain can become dysplastic.

Behavior is also a factor. A puppy who does prolonged impact activities can become dysplastic. Making/letting a puppy retrieve balls over and over can cause dysplasia.

Early spay/neuter will dramatically increase the risk of dysplasia, and such dogs can develop dysplasia in multiple joints as well as spinal changes. 

Add any of these factors together -- a puppy with iffy genes who is neutered early, fed a high protein food, and loves retrieving balls on hills -- and you multiply your chances of dysplasia rearing its head.

With the knowledge we have now, there is simply no way avoid all risk of hip/elbow/shoulder dysplasia. Puppy contracts often have health guarantees covering dysplasia, but those are often unsatisfactory to people, such as when they require returning a puppy in order to receive the benefits of the guarantee. So, we do the best we can, make our best bet, but understand that despite all clearances and efforts, our puppy could still wind up dysplastic. It may be that whatever combination of genes makes a Golden a Golden is responsible for dysplasia risk, such that we may never be able to remove it from the breed entirely.

Walk on up, put your money down, and spin the wheel!


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

puddles everywhere said:


> What documentation did the breeder provide you? I think what people are wondering is did you go to OFA and verify the info provided. People that understand the info posted offer opinions on pedigrees daily to help people know what they are buying.
> 
> Hips & elbows are sent to and only received by a Vet./clinic Hearts and eyes it's up to the owner/breeder to send them in. If she had documentation it should be listed on the OFA database for all to see. So far you have not offered any pedigree information to validate her claims.
> 
> ...


I'll try and find some time this evening to post the info you're looking for.

Thanks.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

1bigpea said:


> I'll try and find some time this evening to post the info you're looking for.
> 
> Thanks.


all that would be on his AKC reg application or reg slip- and if you find it, and post it (or PM to me or someone who will make him a k9data page) that would give anyone who is familiar with the nuance of the OFA database to verify and point out to you places you might look for 'too much risk' taken with this breeding he came from, for instance(and I do not know this to be true in this case) perhaps sire and dam both had missing elbow clearances, or in a prior litter this was repeating, perhaps elbows and shoulders were failed.. this knowledge would be helpful to any case you hope to make and it is somewhat difficult for a novice to decipher in some cases. AND the plus to a k9data page is you can post 'shoulder dysplasia CT diagnosis' and ED CT diagnosis. SO anyone looking there @ similar breedings would see that as a red flag. I do think as I said in the PM to you that it would be inexpensive and useful to have OFA rate the shoulders/elbows via radiograph as dysplastic (be sure to sign the line that says 'release failing info' if you do decide to do this).
Another thing- on a male puppy- or really any dog- 
be sure to not post publicly the issue date on the right side of the reg cert- just stick a piece of paper over that when you scan it. It is that date that allows a litter to be registered, and there are awful people out there.


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## Hainer4 (Aug 16, 2019)

How do you verify health clearances? Im getting two goldens and have no idea what I should be looking for. I am obviously green now that I read all these messages


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## bigblackdog (Jun 14, 2013)

Hainer4 said:


> How do you verify health clearances? Im getting two goldens and have no idea what I should be looking for. I am obviously green now that I read all these messages


The "breeder" is selling you two puppies? That is a red flag right there....ethical breeders do not sell two puppies together. There is something called 'littermate syndrome' and it's not advised to get two. One puppy is hard enough to raise and train properly....two together makes it very hard. One pup will always get the short end of the stick...and not get a chance to develop properly.

I would take a step back an reconsider this "breeder". Start reading, and learn what to look for in an ethical breeder.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Hainer4 said:


> How do you verify health clearances? Im getting two goldens and have no idea what I should be looking for. I am obviously green now that I read all these messages


Armed with the dog’s AKC number, or it’s registered name, you can go to www.ofa.com, enter the information in the search function and if there are any clearances, the dog’s name will show up. Click on that and it will take you to the dog’s page.

Hips and elbows are not official until the dog reaches age 2. Anything before that is a prelim and should not be used for breeding decisions.

Hearts must be done by a cardiologist after 12 months of age, and eyes cleared by a veterinary opthamalogist annually.

Here is some more information from the parent club in the US

https://www.grca.org/find-a-golden/begin-the-search/health-issues-introduction-section-a/


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

Prism Goldens said:


> all that would be on his AKC reg application or reg slip- and if you find it, and post it (or PM to me or someone who will make him a k9data page) that would give anyone who is familiar with the nuance of the OFA database to verify and point out to you places you might look for 'too much risk' taken with this breeding he came from, for instance(and I do not know this to be true in this case) perhaps sire and dam both had missing elbow clearances, or in a prior litter this was repeating, perhaps elbows and shoulders were failed.. this knowledge would be helpful to any case you hope to make and it is somewhat difficult for a novice to decipher in some cases. AND the plus to a k9data page is you can post 'shoulder dysplasia CT diagnosis' and ED CT diagnosis. SO anyone looking there @ similar breedings would see that as a red flag. I do think as I said in the PM to you that it would be inexpensive and useful to have OFA rate the shoulders/elbows via radiograph as dysplastic (be sure to sign the line that says 'release failing info' if you do decide to do this).
> Another thing- on a male puppy- or really any dog-
> be sure to not post publicly the issue date on the right side of the reg cert- just stick a piece of paper over that when you scan it. It is that date that allows a litter to be registered, and there are awful people out there.


Thank you for your kind response, when I get home I'll look over everything I have and respond via PM. I appreciate your help with this.


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## Jessjack (Aug 11, 2019)

I agree. We have to remember that buying a puppy from good parents with clearances greatly lessens the chance that your puppy will have a crippling genetic problem but cannot guarantee that any particular puppy from a litter will be free from dysplasia, etc. That is why good breeders offer a guarantee and will either refund the purchase price or offer a replacement puppy. Hip dysplasia, for instance is not caused by a simple recessive gene that can be easily eliminated. However, breeding dogs with clearances has reduced the incidence and severity of dysplasia over time. Go to OFFA.org which will give you not just results on particular dogs, but the trends in dysplasia over time in Goldens and other breeds. Lots of great in-depth information.
I have seen ads for puppies stating that the parents were clear and therefore that the pups would not get dysplasia, etc. Claims like this are not true and may lead to some buyers thinking that parents with clearances will not produce dogs with problems. 
Years ago I bred an OFA excellent Newfie bitch to an OFA excellent Newfie dog (not closely related), and my lovely bitch from that litter that I kept, who was doing well at her first shows, turned out to be dysplastic. The other pups in the litter passed their clearances. It was sad for me to have to spay her, but as a breeder, I was happy that the other pups were fine. It is the luck of the draw.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

1bigpea said:


> Me too.
> 
> 
> 
> Your own words..."as you can have parents that pass clearances, yet still produce pups that fail."


If it was purely GENETICS, good parents wouldn't produce puppies that fail, would they? 

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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> Dysplasia is a risk in every puppy. Of course, you try to hedge your bets by getting a puppy with many generations of clearances behind it, but there is still no guarantee. It can -- and does -- happen in the most carefully bred litters.
> 
> Food has an influence, too. Feeding a puppy food that is too high in protein can lead to dysplasia.
> 
> ...


All of these are factors for sure. I understand having health guarantees, but there are many factors at play here, but you'll never get the buyer to own up to these things. It's easier to blame the breeder and then want paid on top of it for something they could have caused themselves. 

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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

forgop said:


> If it was purely GENETICS, good parents wouldn't produce puppies that fail, would they?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


This is true, leading to speculation that the food fed to the dam while pregnant is leading to eventual hip dysplasia. The link is to mycotoxins (a type of mold) found in the grains that are in the kibble such as corn, wheat and some other grains. These mycotoxins grow inside the corn, it's not topical so it needs to be tested as you can just inspect the grain. The most common, Aspergillus, has also been a common allergen in dogs when doing an allergy test. This is also another reason grains tend to be an issue with allergies.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

forgop said:


> If it was purely GENETICS, good parents wouldn't produce puppies that fail, would they?


It isn't that simple or even well understood by the best geneticists. Issues that are caused by simple recessive traits are fairly well understood. There is a long way to go yet before we have the genetic handle on polygenic issues.
People need to get this through their heads. There is not now, nor has there ever been, genetic screening tests for polygenic issues. 

Dogs are *NOT* designed in a lab and genetically engineered to be perfect specimens. Purebred dogs are produced through the practice of selective breeding, not genetic engineering. 

That's why NO breeder can guarantee anything. The good ones will offer a warranty in case a problem develops, but that is all they can do. 

The buyer needs to understand what "Health Clearances" are, what they are not, and their relevance to breeding dogs. The core clearances are* not *genetic tests as no such genetic tests exist in the public square.

The few genetic tests available at this time are listed separately and are optional.


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## Jessjack (Aug 11, 2019)

Genetics is a complicated science. If the undesired trait is a simple recessive, like coat color in Newfies, where black is dominant to all other colors, it is pretty easy to select for the color you want. However, some conditions are caused by more than one gene, or possibly the absence of certain modifier genes. These are the tough ones. The fact that the incidence of severe hip dysplasia in Goldens has decreased over time indicates that breeding dogs with clearances does make a positive difference. 
Of course, other things such as poor diet, letting your pup over-exercise, jogging with young dogs, and accidents can cause damage.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

Swampcollie said:


> It isn't that simple or even well understood by the best geneticists. Issues that are caused by simple recessive traits are fairly well understood. There is a long way to go yet before we have the genetic handle on polygenic issues.
> 
> People need to get this through their heads. There is not now, nor has there ever been, genetic screening tests for polygenic issues.
> 
> ...


I agree. But the OP came here to claim without a doubt that it is absolutely genetic when there's no certainty that it is. The buyer wants to blame genetics so they can get a refund/new puppy. The breeder may know more to the story about how the puppy was raised and not want to honor it based upon any of the reasons described above. Sure, I would be very disappointed to have a dysplastic puppy/dog, but I know enough about clearances to not blame it on genetics. 


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## Jessjack (Aug 11, 2019)

Any good breeder will honor his/her contract, stand by the warranty, and move on.


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## 1bigpea (Aug 2, 2019)

forgop said:


> I agree. But the OP came here to claim without a doubt that it is absolutely genetic when there's no certainty that it is. The buyer wants to blame genetics so they can get a refund/new puppy. The breeder may know more to the story about how the puppy was raised and not want to honor it based upon any of the reasons described above. Sure, I would be very disappointed to have a dysplastic puppy/dog, but I know enough about clearances to not blame it on genetics.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Excuse me? You're trying to tell people I wanted a refund or new puppy? Stop making assumptions when you don't know. You don't know me and you don't know what you're talking about.


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## SweetJenny (Sep 15, 2021)

1bigpea said:


> I purchased an English Cream Golden retriever from Ann Floerke the breeder at Goldens R 4 Lovin in Southern California. I lost my previous golden to cancer at age 10, so I decided I should probably go with a "reputable" breeder. Ann stated that all of her dogs have OFA certifications and would guarantee against genetic diseases. I purchased my puppy in October of 2017 and took him home at 7 weeks. However at almost 2 years old my puppy has been diagnosed with elbow dysplasia in both elbows and genetic disorders in both shoulders.
> 
> My puppy started to limp after playing with another dog, no rough housing, just chasing each other around like dogs do. I took him to my normal vet and after the x-rays were done the vet stated it looked like possible elbow dysplasia but referred me to a top orthopedic surgeon in the area. After a very expensive CT scan (which she told me was a waste of money), it was proven that my puppy has elbow dysplasia in both elbows and genetic disorders in both shoulders.
> 
> ...


We had the same issue, we purchased a female puppy from the same breeder (Ann Floerke) and at 5 months old, the dog developed an auto immune disease, we ended up having to put her down. Ann did issue us a refund and she also gifted us a new male puppy. The male puppy ended up getting Lymphoma at the age of 8, we tried a lot of holistic treatments, but we also ended up having to put him down. Huge heartbreaks for us.


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