# What Are The Dangers of Not Using Traditional Heartworm & Tick Prevention



## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

Hi, 

I have a new 5 month old puppy that I have had since he was 8 weeks old. He is my 5th golden retriever and I really want to try something new this time to try and keep him in the best possible shape. So, I left my traditional vet for a holistic vet. The puppy has had his distemper and parvo and will have his rabies vaccine after February 28th. 

The holistic vet does not want to put him on heart worm prevention until the middle to end of March. I live in a very heavily wooded area in Maryland. I also have been instructed to use Organic Rose Geranium Oil and Herbal Defense Powder in his food to prevent ticks and fleas and in particular ticks with Lyme Disease. 

My previous golden got Lyme Disease and suffered from heart problems because of it and I don't want to repeat that with my new puppy. I have recently seen one large dog tick on his nose recently after a walk in the woods, so I suspect that the ticks never really go away in the winter months. 

Does anyone have any advice on whether or not this is a good way to go or if I should go back to using Heart Guard Plus and Frontline? I am so worried that my puppy could end up really sick if I don't protect him properly.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Janet


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Of course it's a risk not to use preventatives. Your dog is open to heartworm and all tick borne diseases. You have to choose what's best for you and your dog. You have to choose which risk you're willing to take; ticks vs preventatives.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

In the south, if you don't protect your dog with heartworm meds it is most likely just a matter of time before he will turn up heartworm positive. Tickborne diseases are very scary, there's no way I would risk either of these for my dog.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Pups should be on heartworm as soon as you bring them home. If your dog gets heartworm and has to go through the treatment it is painful and expensive. Why would you want to put them through that.

Now tick preventative is a different story depending on where you live. Since you live in MD its a no brainer you should be using a preventative. 

Why would you take the chance and put your pup through that when it can 99% be prevented.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

It depends on the weather where you live. If it's consistently warm enough for mosquitoes (60+ degrees) + your dog is outside for considerable stretches of time - you DO need to have your dog on heartworm prevention. 

I'm holding off until closer to April to get my guys started on heartworm prevention. Last year we didn't even get consistently warm until mid June and it got cold in Sept. I was not overly concerned about stopping coverage in Oct. This year, I'm just watching the temps - currently we have had really cold weather. We are supposed to have an early spring - so I might end up starting coverage in March. It all depends on mother nature... 

Normal years with NORMAL spring and early summer temps - I'd have the dogs on coverage between March and November. 

Ticks - I only cover when I see ticks. Currently worst months are April through June. I may only cover for a couple months of year for that reason. <= June this year, I'm planning to go up north to an area where ticks were pretty heavy + I found deer ticks on my dogs, so may cover for 3 months just to be safe.

The tick product I like right now is Simparica. This does not cover heartworms - so those tick heavy spring/early summer months my dog gets Simparica and Heartguard. 


^^^^ Typing all that out to explain what I do based on where I live. I personally prefer to do minimum possible with these meds. 

Your deal in Maryland may be different - particularly if you have more months of the year that it is above 60 degrees. Then ticks are worse in some areas. Even here in MI - where I might only find 1 tick on my dogs all year, go out to the western side of the state and heading north - they have a bigger tick problem.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

nolefan said:


> In the south, if you don't protect your dog with heartworm meds it is most likely just a matter of time before he will turn up heartworm positive. Tickborne diseases are very scary, there's no way I would risk either of these for my dog.


I live in the South, HW is very prevalent here, I've always kept my dogs on HW preventative year round. We normally don't have a good hard freeze here, main reason I've always given my guys HW preventative year round. 

It's too big of a risk not to give it.

I give Flea/tick preventative year round also, my dogs are tested yearly for Lyme disease.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I heard a podcast about deer ticks being active in January but I can't remember where it was from. Below is the first source I found today. 1 out of every 3 ticks in our county tested positive for Lyme disease. I keep Rukie on preventative year round since we have a herd of deer in our yard every day or night.

https://tickencounter.org/landingpage/default/top_ten_things_noflash.html

8. Ticks can be active even in the winter
That's right! Adult stage deer ticks become active every year after the first frost. They're not killed by freezing temperatures, and while other ticks enter a feeding diapause as day-lengths get shorter, deer ticks will be active any winter day that the ground is not snow-covered or frozen. This surprises people, especially during a January thaw or early spring day. Remember this fact and hopefully you'll never be caught off-guard.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I live in northern Indiana. We still do heartworm all year. We can have funny winters. Sometimes it can be really cold and other winters it can be warm. My sister does stop heartworm in the winter. We just dont take the chance.

We used to not use tick prevention because we never had any issue. In 2017 it was spring all winter and they were so bad so we we started it. Where we live now if is a wooded lot. We use tick prevention from about April through sept. We would continue if we found any after that.


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## Lincgold (May 11, 2018)

To Megora: “Normal years with NORMAL spring and early summer temps - I'd have the dogs on coverage between March and November..... I personally prefer to do minimum possible with these meds”

I’ve always wondered why the vet suggests keeping the dogs year round on Heartworm. I live in Mass and currently we are having a snow storm. I can’t see putting this stuff in their system when there’s no chance of mosquitoes being out during the winter months. So, like you, I give them Heartgard during the months March-November. Tick preventative as soon as the ground thaws. I also make sure they’ve received the Lyme disease vaccine. 

To GraceNote313: If it we’re me, I wouldn’t take a chance. I’ve had six Goldens and never regretted using Heartgard and Frontline. Good luck with your new pup


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

We are using Interceptor Plus for heart worm prevention pretty much April thru October. 
We are using Wondercide for flea and tick control. We decided to no longer use a topical pesticide.
We are also doing Titer test now too and not doing vaccines when not needed.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Lincgold said:


> To Megora: “Normal years with NORMAL spring and early summer temps - I'd have the dogs on coverage between March and November..... I personally prefer to do minimum possible with these meds”
> 
> *I’ve always wondered why the vet suggests keeping the dogs year round on Heartworm. I live in Mass and currently we are having a snow storm. I can’t see putting this stuff in their system when there’s no chance of mosquitoes being out during the winter months. So, like you, I give them Heartgard during the months March-November. Tick preventative as soon as the ground thaws.* I also make sure they’ve received the Lyme disease vaccine.
> 
> To GraceNote313: If it we’re me, I wouldn’t take a chance. I’ve had six Goldens and never regretted using Heartgard and Frontline. Good luck with your new pup



What bugs me is that even if you live in a place with no mosquitoes during those months, if you stop giving the heartworm prevention, you are also stopping whatever other prevention it contains (many guard against several kinds of worms). I'm a little sensitive to this because my dog tested positive on her routine fecal as part of her annual check-up for hookworm. It's a super easy parasite for a dog to pick up. So I am now giving heartworm (with its other parasite prevention) year round. We no longer have fully frozen winters, and as soon as there is any thaw, there is risk for parasites. And any time it's over about 6 degrees Celcius, the ticks can come out, so I use tick prevention most months (sometimes we get January or February off). 

Tick borne disease and heartworm I would never take a chance with.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Sweet Girl said:


> What bugs me is that even if you live in a place with no mosquitoes during those months, if you stop giving the heartworm prevention, you are also stopping whatever other prevention it contains (many guard against several kinds of worms). I'm a little sensitive to this because my dog tested positive on her routine fecal as part of her annual check-up for hookworm. It's a super easy parasite for a dog to pick up. So I am now giving heartworm (with its other parasite prevention) year round. We no longer have fully frozen winters, and as soon as there is any thaw, there is risk for parasites. And any time it's over about 6 degrees Celcius, the ticks can come out, so I use tick prevention most months (sometimes we get January or February off).
> 
> Tick borne disease and heartworm I would never take a chance with.


Very good point, I think a lot of people don't think about the other parasites HW preventatives also take care of such as the Hookworms.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sweet Girl said:


> What bugs me is that even if you live in a place with no mosquitoes during those months, if you stop giving the heartworm prevention, you are also stopping whatever other prevention it contains (many guard against several kinds of worms). I'm a little sensitive to this because my dog tested positive on her routine fecal as part of her annual check-up for hookworm. It's a super easy parasite for a dog to pick up. So I am now giving heartworm (with its other parasite prevention) year round. We no longer have fully frozen winters, and as soon as there is any thaw, there is risk for parasites. And any time it's over about 6 degrees Celcius, the ticks can come out, so I use tick prevention most months (sometimes we get January or February off).


I think that if you live in an urban area and take your dog very frequently to any places where other dogs congregate - they are absolutely going to be more prone to becoming infected with these different parasites. 

In my case, it's dog shows. If I take my guys to a dog show - I will walk a little further out away from the building to potty them rather than using the same area other dogs use. 

With my guys we have roadkill remnants sometimes dropped in our woods by the birds back there (we have eagles and crows who like the woods back there). Just a couple days ago, Jovi ate what I believe was remnants of a rabbit that had been killed. I felt a smidge better knowing it was probably a rabbit vs a cat, but if it was a rabbit - odds are likely the poor thing had worms. 

Am I nervous enough to cover my dogs year round with preventative? No.... It's a guarantee that my dogs will be covered about 6-8 months of the year. Among else, it just means there's 3-6 months of the year that my dog is not being dewormed. The rest of the year, he will be. 

Stuff I DO anyway which might help - boost the immune system. Dogs who keep getting worms and stuff like that - sometimes it's because their immune system is wonky. 

Small laugh to share is the hookworm thing is that is something I've had people bringing up when they realize I literally spend my summers either barefoot or in sandals (the old gypsy hillbilly blood in me LOL). Even now in winter - I only put shoes on if I'm going outside. And even there, I've been known to just step outside barefoot while hurrying the dogs outside and back in.


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## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

Otter said:


> We are using Interceptor Plus for heart worm prevention pretty much April thru October.
> We are using Wondercide for flea and tick control. We decided to no longer use a topical pesticide.
> We are also doing Titer test now too and not doing vaccines when not needed.


The Interceptor Plus is what the holistic vet wanted to begin using in March but I told her that I have already found one tick on Toby's nose so I think we need to begin now. She said that I should use Revolution. I looked at it but it said that it did not cover deer ticks. I am so confused. I think that I should just go back to using the Frontline and the Heartguard Plus. I want to protect him from the deer ticks, heartworms, round worms and hook worms. This is so confusing to me. Thank you for your help!


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## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

Sweet Girl said:


> What bugs me is that even if you live in a place with no mosquitoes during those months, if you stop giving the heartworm prevention, you are also stopping whatever other prevention it contains (many guard against several kinds of worms). I'm a little sensitive to this because my dog tested positive on her routine fecal as part of her annual check-up for hookworm. It's a super easy parasite for a dog to pick up. So I am now giving heartworm (with its other parasite prevention) year round. We no longer have fully frozen winters, and as soon as there is any thaw, there is risk for parasites. And any time it's over about 6 degrees Celcius, the ticks can come out, so I use tick prevention most months (sometimes we get January or February off).
> 
> Tick borne disease and heartworm I would never take a chance with.


I am in the same situation in Maryland. I live in a very heavily wooded area with all kind of wild animals. So, I guess I have to try and get the holistic vet to subscribe Heartguard and Frontline. If she will not do it, I will have to look for a new traditional vet. I just want the best for my new puppy. Especially since, my 13 year old that just died 6 months ago, got Lyme disease while living here. It is really a very hard decision. He did die from Hemangiosarcoma but I do not think that was from giving him the tick and heartworm preventatives.


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## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

Megora said:


> I think that if you live in an urban area and take your dog very frequently to any places where other dogs congregate - they are absolutely going to be more prone to becoming infected with these different parasites.
> 
> In my case, it's dog shows. If I take my guys to a dog show - I will walk a little further out away from the building to potty them rather than using the same area other dogs use.
> 
> ...



I am with you on the bare foot front. Bare feet all the way sometimes I even walk outside in the cold winter, if it's for something really quick!! I am also wondering if you know anything about the lepto vaccine. I asked the vet why Toby wasn't getting it and she said because I don't live in the city with rats or on a farm with cows. I am not so sure. I thought that they needed it if they were walking around where other dogs and wild life urinate and just in case they take a sip of dirty water. The holistic veterinarian practices are all new to me and I have had 4 previous goldens with traditional vets. I just thought that I would try holistic as a way to help my new puppy have a better quality of life and keep cancer at bay. Thank you so much for all of your good advice. It is so helpful to me!!! Janet


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## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I live in the South, HW is very prevalent here, I've always kept my dogs on HW preventative year round. We normally don't have a good hard freeze here, main reason I've always given my guys HW preventative year round.
> 
> It's too big of a risk not to give it.
> 
> I give Flea/tick preventative year round also, my dogs are tested yearly for Lyme disease.


If you don't mind me asking, what kind of heartworm and tick prevention do you use? I have always used Heartguard Plus and either Frontline or Advantix. Janet


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

GraceNote313 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what kind of heartworm and tick prevention do you use? I have always used Heartguard Plus and either Frontline or Advantix. Janet


I use HG Plus and Nextgard, I stagger the doses out, never give them on the same day.


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## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

Sweet Girl said:


> What bugs me is that even if you live in a place with no mosquitoes during those months, if you stop giving the heartworm prevention, you are also stopping whatever other prevention it contains (many guard against several kinds of worms). I'm a little sensitive to this because my dog tested positive on her routine fecal as part of her annual check-up for hookworm. It's a super easy parasite for a dog to pick up. So I am now giving heartworm (with its other parasite prevention) year round. We no longer have fully frozen winters, and as soon as there is any thaw, there is risk for parasites. And any time it's over about 6 degrees Celcius, the ticks can come out, so I use tick prevention most months (sometimes we get January or February off).
> 
> Tick borne disease and heartworm I would never take a chance with.


Thank you so much for the information. I have always kept my other 4 goldens on preventatives year round. I am now working with a holistic vet that does not believe in this and especially doesn't' want me to use Frontline, Advantix, or Heartguard. She wants me to use organic rose geranium oil and a powder in his food to prevent the ticks and I think the Interceptor or Revolution for heartworm. This is very confusing because when I look up what the Interceptor and Revolution cover there is always something that is not covered such as hookworms, roundworms, deer ticks. I am wondering if you would not mind telling me which preventatives you have been using.
Many thanks for your help. Janet


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## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

ArchersMom said:


> Of course it's a risk not to use preventatives. Your dog is open to heartworm and all tick borne diseases. You have to choose what's best for you and your dog. You have to choose which risk you're willing to take; ticks vs preventatives.


Thank you. I agree with you. I am wondering if you have any advice on which flee and tick and heartworm preventatives are the best to use these days. Toby needs to be fully protected. I also wonder if you know anything about the necessity of giving dogs the Lepto vaccine. The holistic vet said it is unnecessary, unless I live in the city with rats or on a farm with cows. I am not so sure about that statement. Any information would be most appreciated. Janet


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## GraceNote313 (Aug 7, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> I use HG Plus and Nextgard, I stagger the doses out, never give them on the same day.


Thank you! I never thought to stager them out. That is a very good idea! Appreciate the help. Janet


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

GraceNote313 said:


> Thank you! I never thought to stager them out. That is a very good idea! Appreciate the help. Janet


I forgot to mention, I always give them on a day I know I will be home all day in case of any reaction. I've been lucky so far and none of my guys have ever had a problem but you never know.....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GraceNote313 said:


> I am also wondering if you know anything about the lepto vaccine. I asked the vet why Toby wasn't getting it and she said because I don't live in the city with rats or on a farm with cows. I am not so sure. I thought that they needed it if they were walking around where other dogs and wild life urinate and just in case they take a sip of dirty water.


My guys get the lepto vaccine every year.

Lepto is carried by stray dogs, rats, raccoons, squirrels... and other things. It is also one of those diseases where by the time you know something's wrong - it close to too late.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Megora said:


> I think that if you live in an urban area and take your dog very frequently to any places where other dogs congregate - they are absolutely going to be more prone to becoming infected with these different parasites.
> 
> In my case, it's dog shows. If I take my guys to a dog show - I will walk a little further out away from the building to potty them rather than using the same area other dogs use.
> 
> ...



For us, it's the urban parks. My vet said it could have been as simple as, her ball bounced through someone's poop - another dog's, a squirrel's, rabbit's - and she picked it up. She never had symptoms, thank goodness, and the dewormer took care of it. But it's an interesting thing to consider. I sort of jumped back into prevention year round as a knee-jerk reaction, but maybe it IS considering whether it's worth giving for all 12 months, or do we sort of risk it for 3-6 months. Maybe we do a happy medium of 9 months, sort of covering the months that there is no freezing. 




GraceNote313 said:


> Thank you. I agree with you. I am wondering if you have any advice on which flee and tick and heartworm preventatives are the best to use these days. Toby needs to be fully protected. I also wonder if you know anything about the necessity of giving dogs the Lepto vaccine. The holistic vet said it is unnecessary, unless I live in the city with rats or on a farm with cows. I am not so sure about that statement. Any information would be most appreciated. Janet



You should ask your vet about the risk of lepto where you are and with your lifestyle. There was an outbreak in the city of Toronto many years ago linked to the raccoons - I still had my last dog, so it's probably about 8-9 years ago now - and there was a recommendation that all dogs in the city get the vaccine that year. So we did. But that was it - and my vet does not recommend it for most of her downtown clients. But we spend a lot of time in the country, my dog swims in ponds all summer and fall and so she does recommend it for my dog. Everyone I field train with gets the lepto vaccine for their dogs. But I think it really is an individualized one - talk to your vet. I would not be getting it for my dog if she was not in areas of risk.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

GraceNote313 said:


> Thank you. I agree with you. I am wondering if you have any advice on which flee and tick and heartworm preventatives are the best to use these days. Toby needs to be fully protected. I also wonder if you know anything about the necessity of giving dogs the Lepto vaccine. The holistic vet said it is unnecessary, unless I live in the city with rats or on a farm with cows. I am not so sure about that statement. Any information would be most appreciated. Janet


We use Revolution year round. I'm in a much different climate than you on the Pacific Northwest but I think Revolution is one of the safer options and it is very broad spectrum. As everyone else already said, Lepto risk depends on location and lifestyle. I give it to some of my dogs, particularly those in field training but my house dog has never had it.


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

GraceNote313 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, what kind of heartworm and tick prevention do you use? I have always used Heartguard Plus and either Frontline or Advantix. Janet


I also have always used a traditional vet concurrently with a holistic vet. I gave Callie Heartguard year round but every 6 weeks instead of 4, per holistic vet suggestion. I live in Northern IL. I never gave Frontline until 2016 0r 2017 when Callie suddenly came home from a walk in neighborhood with several ticks on her. I started giving her Frontline then but only bare minimum. My traditional vet was very open to my holistic ways. So I gave Callie Frontline early spring for 2 months then none over summer (bc she said tics are not as active in extreme heat) and then a dose in the fall. IN between I applied All Zoo tick and flea preventative which is essential oil. I really never saw any more ticks and this regime was very effective. I did do tick inspections every time she was outside. I also detoxed her after any heartguard or frontline and after vaccines with a milk thistle product by Herbsmith. We also sprayed yard a couple times with Wondercide as well. Good luck. I know it is confusing and you want to do the very best and not expose to toxins. I hate all this stuff bc I prefer holistic medicine. But there's a place for conventional medicine and even my holistic vet suggests Frontline to some of her patients. She spaces them out to 6 weeks. Good luck.


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

I also never gave heartguard or frontline within days of eachother, I spaced them out by at least 5 days. And never withing same time frame of vaccines. I also spaced out vaccines and didn't do more than one in same day. I have taken this same approach with my daughter.


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

I also never gave heartguard or frontline within days of eachother, I spaced them out by at least 5 days. And never within same time frame of vaccines. I also spaced out vaccines and didn't do more than one in same day. I have taken this same approach with my daughter.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

GraceNote313 said:


> Thank you. I agree with you. I am wondering if you have any advice on which flee and tick and heartworm preventatives are the best to use these days. Toby needs to be fully protected. I also wonder if you know anything about the necessity of giving dogs the Lepto vaccine. The holistic vet said it is unnecessary, unless I live in the city with rats or on a farm with cows. I am not so sure about that statement. Any information would be most appreciated. Janet


I use Heartgard Plus for heartworm prevention. Living in Texas, we have mosquitoes year round, so my dogs get prevention every single month. I give Nexgard for fleas/ticks only when I know I'm taking them somewhere they will be in brush/woods. I haven't had them just in my yard, but if I ever found them on my dogs at home I'd give Nexgard monthly.

Leptospirosis is carried by rodents and wild life. Anywhere there are mice or rats, rabbits, raccoons, etc., they can leave droppings. They are everywhere, not just cities and farms. Suburban areas have them too. I would ask the vet how many leptospirosis cases they see in your area to determine if it's a problem where you live or not.


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## Berna (Jun 14, 2016)

I use preventatives only during mosquito season. When I start depends on the weather. Bear in mind that:



> "The worms require the mosquito as an intermediate stage to complete their lifecycles. The rate of development in the mosquito is temperature-dependent, requiring about two weeks of temperature at or above 27 °C (80 °F). Below a threshold temperature of 14 °C (57 °F), development cannot occur, and the cycle is halted."


With that said, I usually start by the end of April, but last year, for example, was colder and I didn't have to start until mid-May. 

Once I start, I give prevention every two months, not monthly.

The last dose, again, depends on the weather, but it's usually in September/October.

I also test for HW once a year, before I start with prevention. 

Ticks are also nasty here, but usually they are not that active in the warm, dry summer months, so I use a topical from early to late spring and early autumn (Indian Summer).


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## goldwhiz (Feb 15, 2019)

*re Ticks in winter... yes*

Definitely ticks possible in January. Years ago happened to be near Long Beach NY in Jan. A lot of ice & snow, tho don't recall temperature. Popped dogs out of the car, quiet spot near road strip of marsh... one foot in covered w. ticks, beat a hasty retreat. ugh
My take: any place ticks in summer, may have them in winter. Not necessarily even distributed, there are 'hot patches'.


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## goldwhiz (Feb 15, 2019)

Thanks Cwag for your earlier post (w. landscaping link). Until now, never seen anything specifically about ticks in WINTER! I just posted about my one big tick experience in winter (about 4 page in in this thread)


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## goldwhiz (Feb 15, 2019)

I've read (from what sure seemed to be a creditable source) we need to begin to apply tick protection at a LOWER temperature, (65 or 70, that's my memory). But recommendation may vary by region. The tx protects backward 30 days, gives us some leadway.
More info, anyone?


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## goldwhiz (Feb 15, 2019)

Trying to figure out WHERE ArcherMom's cute pic was taken??? Sitting on balcony of some apt near a beach by proud owner after a hunt test... or is this some fancy permanent blind? Obviosly not what I have in my next of the woods. Curiosity got the better of me!


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

goldwhiz said:


> Trying to figure out WHERE ArcherMom's cute pic was taken??? Sitting on balcony of some apt near a beach by proud owner after a hunt test... or is this some fancy permanent blind? Obviosly not what I have in my next of the woods. Curiosity got the better of me!


That is actually the bow of a hunting boat! We're anchored along the shore of a lake near the Pacific ocean. My favorite way to hunt!


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## roxygold (Apr 6, 2014)

I just went to a talk by Dr. Dodds this past weekend. She addressed flea and tick preventatives. She is doing a study and plans to present her results to the FDA next month and then publish the study. The only preventatives that she considers to be generally safe are Interceptor, Frontline, Advantage II, Advantix II, and Heartgard. And she recommends using them only when necessary.


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## Jane (Jan 2, 2013)

Ticks:

Last winter we were using Vectra (similar to Frontline or Advantix, I think) with our Golden, Crispin, in the dead of last winter in upstate NY--yes, upstate NY, near Albany, where you think it would be cold enough to stop during the winter. But in these days of fluky, vacillating weather, it is no longer the case that it won't ever get over 40 degrees F for a day or so, which activates those deer and other (very tiny) ticks--even in January and February. 

Ten or fifteen years ago this wasn't the case. Back then I withheld flea and tick treatment during the frigid winter months. The climate is changing; this isn't a political statement, it's just what we've observed during our 20 years of Golden ownership.

In spite of being current on Vectra--we are not particularly sloppy about dog care--our Crispin developed anaplasmosis, a tick-borne disease similar to Lyme, so quickly and so virulently, he almost died. We took him immediately to the ER when he began limping (it was a Sunday night). He had contracted it so recently, apparently that very day, that he still tested negative on the tick panel they ran (they have a lab so could get asap results). He also had fever, but they sent him home with painkillers and told us to follow up with our regular vet if he continued to have symptoms. 

This was in January!!!

The next morning my husband had to carry our nearly non-responsive dog to the car and we took him instantly to his regular--thank goodness, experienced--veterinarian. He could not walk; his fever was raging and we were frankly terrified. His vet examined him carefully, and said in a level voice: "I think this is infectious, and probably tick-borne. He needs immediate hospitalization and with IV antibiotics and pain medicine. Let's admit him and get started right now. I won't get the tick panel results until tomorrow, but I'm more concerned now about getting him immediate treatment."

Well, she was 100 percent correct--he had anaplasmosis. She called to update me on how he was responding that afternoon (he was, a little) and tried to reassure me that she didn't think he would die. He was treated for several weeks with doxycycline and another antibiotic, and he's ok now. But what a horrible experience. 

I now use that horrible stuff that he has to ingest. I hate it and wish the topical had worked. It did not. The ticks in our part of upstate are terrible--I myself have had Lyme disease, though I was nowhere near as sick as poor Crispin. 

But I saw firsthand what can happen when a dog contracts a tick-borne illness. 

It's a devil's bargain, for sure, but I wanted to share our experience.


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## Johnv (Nov 15, 2018)

*Flea, Tick, and Worms*

I share my time in both Massachusetts and in Vermont and to say ticks have been a problem is an understatement. They, (ticks), start when the snow starts to melt and are present, in the woods and fields, until the snow shows back up. I use heartgard plus for the heartworms and the Seresto flee and tick collar for those nasty ticks. The heart-guard, I give year round, due to my goldens snacking on the "smart pills the deer and rabbits leave behind. The heartgard takes care of any worms they might ingest from their "snacks". As far as the ticks and fleas go the Seresto is by far the best preventative that I have ever used. It is a 8 month collar, made by Bayer, (the aspirin company), that I put on in March and it lasts until the snows fly again in November. I actually keep it on all year long because of the reflective qualities of the collar. I have tried most of the over the counter flea and tick drops, and had limited results with them. I actually used Frontline on one of my dogs when he somewhere picked up a tick, and I had to send him to the "Rainbow Bridge" 5 days short of his 5th birthday, because the Lyme disease infected his kidneys and shut them down. That was it for the Frontline. With the Seresto I have not seen any ticks on my dogs or for that matter my cat, (Seresto for cats), in years. I wonder though what these chemicals are doing to my companions. I would truly like to find a safe chemical free alternative to these parasites. I'm starting my search for a new golden pup for the Summer of 2020 and hopefully I can find a chemical free alternative to flea and tick. Until then it is Seresto for the ticks and fleas and heartgard for the worms.


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## MKDuBois (Sep 12, 2017)

debbie624 said:


> I also have always used a traditional vet concurrently with a holistic vet. I gave Callie Heartguard year round but every 6 weeks instead of 4, per holistic vet suggestion. I live in Northern IL. I never gave Frontline until 2016 0r 2017 when Callie suddenly came home from a walk in neighborhood with several ticks on her. I started giving her Frontline then but only bare minimum. My traditional vet was very open to my holistic ways. So I gave Callie Frontline early spring for 2 months then none over summer (bc she said tics are not as active in extreme heat) and then a dose in the fall. IN between I applied All Zoo tick and flea preventative which is essential oil. I really never saw any more ticks and this regime was very effective. I did do tick inspections every time she was outside. I also detoxed her after any heartguard or frontline and after vaccines with a milk thistle product by Herbsmith. We also sprayed yard a couple times with Wondercide as well. Good luck. I know it is confusing and you want to do the very best and not expose to toxins. I hate all this stuff bc I prefer holistic medicine. But there's a place for conventional medicine and even my holistic vet suggests Frontline to some of her patients. She spaces them out to 6 weeks. Good luck.


I would like to learn about detoxing with milk thistle.
Where do you get it, how do you give it, and what dosage do you use?
We use Heartguard and Frontline, but usually take the coldest winter months off.
Do you think the coverage of these two preventatives will be adequate if given every 6 weeks instead every month?
We applied Frontline on September 24, and thought we'd be good for the year. Then on November 16, we found a fully-engorged tick hidden under the ear, which we had missed; 53 days after the last dose. We put our dog on a course of antibiotics, had the tick tested, and found that it was a deer tick, but thankfully negative for Lyme. 
Going to get the Leptospirosis vaccine this year because we have a lot of wildlife passing around and through the backyard, and we hike a lot.
Thank you, everyone, for your helpful input!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jane said:


> Ticks:
> 
> Last winter we were using Vectra (similar to Frontline or Advantix, I think) with our Golden, Crispin, in the dead of last winter in upstate NY--yes, upstate NY, near Albany, where you think it would be cold enough to stop during the winter. But in these days of fluky, vacillating weather, it is no longer the case that it won't ever get over 40 degrees F for a day or so, which activates those deer and other (very tiny) ticks--even in January and February.
> 
> In spite of being current on Vectra--we are not particularly sloppy about dog care--our Crispin developed anaplasmosis, a tick-borne disease similar to Lyme, so quickly and so virulently, he almost died.


Gotta say one thing.

I used to do Vectra until I went north with my dogs and Bertie especially kept getting covered with ticks. 

I remember driving back to our hotel from the forest we'd been hiking in and my sister had her tweezers out and was kept pretty busy plucking and tossing ticks out the window.

The dogs were on Vectra - and I remember it being a big deal because we were going north for a dog show and I had to be careful about bathing too soon after. 

I've heard bravecto works and we'd only have to do 1 pill per year per dogs probably - however I'm worried about giving my dogs something that stays in their system that long. I worry about how strong a dose it is upfront. 

I use Simparica + heartguard. That's really just spring and early summer. 

Months where I'm not using any flea/tick stuff, I just use Sentinel for the dogs. 

But anyway - I don't think Vectra works that great anymore. 

My vet won't even stock Frontline because it's been ineffective against ticks and they don't recommend it to patients. 

My sister's St. Bernard pup had frontline applied before they came out here last summer and I still found not just a tick, but an engorged tick that had been on him a good while. It probably hitched a ride from the Dakotas or Minnesota. 

The collars - I've heard so many people, especially those who train in field, use these collars... but they scare the heck out of me. It's a big flea collar for your dog. That's toxins that are constantly on your dog's coat...!


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

MKDuBois said:


> I would like to learn about detoxing with milk thistle.
> Where do you get it, how do you give it, and what dosage do you use?
> We use Heartguard and Frontline, but usually take the coldest winter months off.
> Do you think the coverage of these two preventatives will be adequate if given every 6 weeks instead every month?
> ...


My holistic vet told me that I can space out both Frontline and Heartguard every 6 weeks instead of 4 but you may want to consult with your vet. I did not give them both within days of each other so as not to expose Callie to too many toxins at once. Herbsmith makes the milk thistle. Its a blue jar called Milk Thistle Liver Support for Dogs and Cats. It is a powder that you sprinkle over their food. It is dosed by weight so Callie weighed about 62 pounds and I gave her 1/2 tsp twice a day. I gave it on a daily basis and took off for a week. Then gave again for a few weeks, then off a week. I read/was told you don't give milk thistle continually without breaks. Probiotics are hugely important too. Have you heard of All Zoo? That worked well for Callie too in preventing ticks and fleas. Both I got from our holistic pet store but you can get online too. I'll see if I can figure out how to post a pic of the milk thistle.


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

MKDuBois said:


> I would like to learn about detoxing with milk thistle.
> Where do you get it, how do you give it, and what dosage do you use?
> We use Heartguard and Frontline, but usually take the coldest winter months off.
> Do you think the coverage of these two preventatives will be adequate if given every 6 weeks instead every month?
> ...


Here's a link for the milk thistle we used for Callie. https://www.amazon.com/Herbsmith-Organic-Milk-Thistle-Dogs/dp/B00541ABTU


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## debbie624 (Aug 10, 2018)

Johnv said:


> I share my time in both Massachusetts and in Vermont and to say ticks have been a problem is an understatement. They, (ticks), start when the snow starts to melt and are present, in the woods and fields, until the snow shows back up. I use heartgard plus for the heartworms and the Seresto flee and tick collar for those nasty ticks. The heart-guard, I give year round, due to my goldens snacking on the "smart pills the deer and rabbits leave behind. The heartgard takes care of any worms they might ingest from their "snacks". As far as the ticks and fleas go the Seresto is by far the best preventative that I have ever used. It is a 8 month collar, made by Bayer, (the aspirin company), that I put on in March and it lasts until the snows fly again in November. I actually keep it on all year long because of the reflective qualities of the collar. I have tried most of the over the counter flea and tick drops, and had limited results with them. I actually used Frontline on one of my dogs when he somewhere picked up a tick, and I had to send him to the "Rainbow Bridge" 5 days short of his 5th birthday, because the Lyme disease infected his kidneys and shut them down. That was it for the Frontline. With the Seresto I have not seen any ticks on my dogs or for that matter my cat, (Seresto for cats), in years. I wonder though what these chemicals are doing to my companions. I would truly like to find a safe chemical free alternative to these parasites. I'm starting my search for a new golden pup for the Summer of 2020 and hopefully I can find a chemical free alternative to flea and tick. Until then it is Seresto for the ticks and fleas and heartgard for the worms.


Look into All Zoo flea and tick preventative. Its essential oil topical, given and applied monthly like Frontline. I believe (check this out though) it can be used concurrently with Frontline. I applied the All Zoo during months I didn;t apply Frontline and had good success. Its not a guarantee though. I obsessively did tick inspections every time Callie went outside. We live in Northern IL with wetlands behind us and get deer frequently.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

roxygold said:


> I just went to a talk by Dr. Dodds this past weekend. She addressed flea and tick preventatives. She is doing a study and plans to present her results to the FDA next month and then publish the study. T*he only preventatives that she considers to be generally safe are Interceptor, Frontline, Advantage II, Advantix II, and Heartgard*. And she recommends using them only when necessary.



Based on what? (Not challenging, just genuinely curious) Both products I use (plus one I used to use) are on that list, but I am curious why she deems them safer than others. Or is that what her research is going to show?


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I live in New Hampshire, and at the recommendation of my regular vet and two holistic vets, I have been giving my dog Heartgard Plus just May/June through the first of November (based on the information shared earlier in this thread about the temps the microfillae need to develop). We always test the dogs before restarting each spring. I have felt pretty comfortable with that until I recently read at a "natural" website I trust that the heartworms are developing some resistance to the ivermectin and we should probably be using it year round... not because an infected mosquito might bite my dog in February, but to try to get every last microfillae that might have infected her over the summer. I'll need to have this conversation with my vets in a month or two. FWIW one of my holistic vets wanted me to try to find (or buy from her) HW pills that did NOT contain the added worming chemicals. She figured why give the dog a potentially harmful chemical they might not even need? Unless my dog is frequently exposed to a particular worm (she's only every had hookworm, and that only once or twice in 8 years), she'd rather see them treated only IF worms are confirmed.

The tick situation is tough. New Hampshire is pretty much ground zero for half a dozen life-threatening tick diseases. Both of my last two dogs were definitely positive for Lyme (one fought it off on his own, the other required four months of antibiotics before her kidney values were normal), and almost everyone I know with a dog around here has battled one or more of the tick diseases, and at least one lost a dog to Lymes Nephritis. Unfortunately, most of the standard preventatives scare the bejeezus out of me! Fortunately for us (though sadly for the dogs) our dogs rarely leave our back yard, which is all short grass so our tick pressure is pretty low. We tend to only have a tick "problem" in the spring and fall (with "problem" being finding 1-3 ticks on them in the course of the entire season). But... it only takes one, and as I said, both of my dogs have had at least one infection. Right now, we are relying on giving them a twice daily dose of a garlic/yeast supplement (Springtime Garlic Bug-off) and adding apple cider vinegar to their food, year round. During the warmer months, we also use Buck Mountain Parasite dust monthly, and will spray them with a natural tick repellent if we know we'll be taking them somewhere "ticky" (and then we do a thorough tick check when we get home). This has given us at least the same level of control as our friends who use things like Frontline. A couple of years ago we took the dogs off the garlic supplement (holistic vet request for a different issue we were working on) and we started finding so many ticks on our dogs that we resorted to short-term use of a Sorresto collar. We only kept it on her for a few months, till the first snow fell, then took it off and put it in a zip-lock bag in the freezer just in case she needed it again in the spring. By spring she was back on the garlic and we had a "standard" tick year - I only removed three embedded ticks last year and only one was on her long enough to get engorged. I have also started giving my dogs a short course of homeopathic Ledum any time I pull a tick off of them (who knows if it helps, but it shouldn't hurt).

None of the options for ticks are "good" as far as I'm concerned. Every one of the chemical based preventatives (Frontline, Serresto, Bravecto, etc.) has reports of causing serious injury or death to a frightening number of dogs. BUT the tick diseases can kill them too. :-( I think all we can do is assess our own level of risk, decide what is the lessor of the evils, consult with our vets, and make the best decision we can for our babies...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The current research into increased hemangiosarcoma in dogs with Bartonella (carried by fleas and ticks) ought to be enough to convince everyone not to take any chances by forgoing preventatives.
https://cvm.ncsu.edu/akc-chf-grant-...YxX_Q520Tngu-thoe0pnYqtRMozhHX85jsepHRRbpV8Z4


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

So first, I'm not at all against holistic vets and am all for minimal vaccines and titering. But as a groomer who used to work at a traditional vet's office, I can tell you the "natural remedies" don't do diddly squat. Any dog I've ever groomed who is treated for fleas "naturally" WILL come in with fleas at some point. Same thing with ticks. Most flea and tick collars are worthless too. And here in IL heartworm is so prevalent I do not want to take the risk of not treating my dog-reactions to heartworm meds are not very common, but getting heartworm is common and very expensive to treat. Currently, I'm using Interceptor for worms and Simparica for fleas and ticks. I have used Heartgaurd, Frontline and Nexgard in the past. Only issues I've had was when Frontline became ineffective for my dog and I discovered a flea on her while brushing her one day-when I took her to the vet to get something different to kill the fleas, they told me that they had been seeing more and more cases of Frontline not working. Revolution will not kill ticks, if I remember right (I know there was some reason I wouldn't use it, and I believe that was why). Another one I've heard of a lot of people using is Comfortis, but that one also doesn't kill ticks. Ultimately, you have to look at your own situation and decide how much of a risk your dog is at for getting heartworms, fleas, or ticks; then weigh that against the dog's risk of any issues from the preventative, and decide what to do from there. My first golden lived to be 15 1/2 and she was treated monthly. My sister's lab/gsd mix lived to be 14 and she was also treated monthly. The golden died from a stroke and the labx from old age-neither ever got cancer that we were aware of. My second golden is nearly 8 and is treated monthly and no problems so far.


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## goldenenthusiast (Jul 28, 2014)

Goldens&Friesians said:


> So first, I'm not at all against holistic vets and am all for minimal vaccines and titering. But as a groomer who used to work at a traditional vet's office, I can tell you the "natural remedies" don't do diddly squat. Any dog I've ever groomed who is treated for fleas "naturally" WILL come in with fleas at some point. Same thing with ticks. Most flea and tick collars are worthless too. And here in IL heartworm is so prevalent I do not want to take the risk of not treating my dog-reactions to heartworm meds are not very common, but getting heartworm is common and very expensive to treat. Currently, I'm using Interceptor for worms and Simparica for fleas and ticks. I have used Heartgaurd, Frontline and Nexgard in the past. Only issues I've had was when Frontline became ineffective for my dog and I discovered a flea on her while brushing her one day-when I took her to the vet to get something different to kill the fleas, they told me that they had been seeing more and more cases of Frontline not working. Revolution will not kill ticks, if I remember right (I know there was some reason I wouldn't use it, and I believe that was why). Another one I've heard of a lot of people using is Comfortis, but that one also doesn't kill ticks. Ultimately, you have to look at your own situation and decide how much of a risk your dog is at for getting heartworms, fleas, or ticks; then weigh that against the dog's risk of any issues from the preventative, and decide what to do from there. My first golden lived to be 15 1/2 and she was treated monthly. My sister's lab/gsd mix lived to be 14 and she was also treated monthly. The golden died from a stroke and the labx from old age-neither ever got cancer that we were aware of. My second golden is nearly 8 and is treated monthly and no problems so far.


Since you have tried several, do you have any thoughts about Interceptor vs Heartguard for heartworms? And same with Simparica vs Nexgard? I haven't heard of Simparica. I am in IL as well and constantly debating about what to use. I used Sentinel for years no problem but a holistic vet suggested I switch to Interceptor. As for ticks, I haven't had problems with Nexgard either but everyone keeps saying how bad it is and causes seizures, etc. I am very confused by all the different product options.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

littlesnow said:


> Since you have tried several, do you have any thoughts about Interceptor vs Heartguard for heartworms? And same with Simparica vs Nexgard? I haven't heard of Simparica. I am in IL as well and constantly debating about what to use. I used Sentinel for years no problem but a holistic vet suggested I switch to Interceptor. As for ticks, I haven't had problems with Nexgard either but everyone keeps saying how bad it is and causes seizures, etc. I am very confused by all the different product options.


Interceptor works for more kinds of worms than Heartguard. Simparica is cheaper than Nexgard and has been working just fine in the 2 or so years I've been using it. I know for some people they choose one over the other because their dog won't eat it, but my dogs eats all 4 types like treats so that's not an issue, lol!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

littlesnow said:


> Since you have tried several,* do you have any thoughts about Interceptor vs Heartguard for heartworms?* And same with Simparica vs Nexgard? I haven't heard of Simparica. I am in IL as well and constantly debating about what to use. I used Sentinel for years no problem but a holistic vet suggested I switch to Interceptor. As for ticks, I haven't had problems with Nexgard either but everyone keeps saying how bad it is and causes seizures, etc. I am very confused by all the different product options.



I'll weigh in here, if you don't mind the butt in. :smile2: 

My dog was on Heartgard along with Advantix II for ticks. I didn't realize it only protects against heartworm until my dog contracted hookworm. It was a stupid oversight on my part - I was simply looking for a heartworm prevention that would not double up on the flea prevention that was already in her Advantix. I've now switched to Interceptor to get the wider coverage against other worms.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

hotel4dogs said:


> The current research into increased hemangiosarcoma in dogs with Bartonella (carried by fleas and ticks) ought to be enough to convince everyone not to take any chances by forgoing preventatives.
> https://cvm.ncsu.edu/akc-chf-grant-...YxX_Q520Tngu-thoe0pnYqtRMozhHX85jsepHRRbpV8Z4


Thanks for sharing that. It's very interesting.


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## roxygold (Apr 6, 2014)

I've attached info from Dr. Dodds' talk.

She did not share with us the underlying data of her study, but it should be out later this year.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Thanks. Yes, I hope she puts out the supporting scientific data, too.


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