# How do you handle your hunting?



## gdgli

Some questions have come to mind about how we handle our dogs when actually hunting. I would like to pose this one first.

What are your feelings on letting a dog cheat cover when retrieving pheasants that have been flushed and hit? Pheasant goes down at the far end of the field. The dog has marked the bird. Correct line is through the cover but the dog can get to the pheasant quicker by cheating. Let him cheat or insist on the correct line?


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## hotel4dogs

my dog would take the correct line anyway.....he just takes the shortest, not the fastest, distance to the bird. Not always the best approach.


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## gdgli

hotel4dogs said:


> my dog would take the correct line anyway.....he just takes the shortest, not the fastest, distance to the bird. Not always the best approach.


Thank you. And I know that you have the hunting experience.


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## hotel4dogs

It can actually be somewhat frustrating. He will plow right through thick brambles, get stuck in bushes, etc. rather than going around things.


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## gdgli

He is a tough dog!


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## hotel4dogs

More heart than brains sometimes :surprise:



gdgli said:


> He is a tough dog!


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## Swampcollie

Hunting is hunting, training is training. Your responsibility when hunting is to recover a downed bird as quickly as possible not ensure that the dog takes a straight line. Let the dog get the bird.


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## PrincessDaisy

We hunt, we don't compete in sanctioned events. As the hunter, I am the only judge. Daisy takes the path of least resistance, and it is usually the fastest path as well.


Max


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## gdgli

PrincessDaisy said:


> We hunt, we don't compete in sanctioned events. As the hunter, I am the only judge. Daisy takes the path of least resistance, and it is usually the fastest path as well.
> 
> 
> Max


Very happy to see you post. I do both---hunt and test. I agree with you. Not only that, I let the dog think for herself most of the time. However I am always thinking about how I may be compromising my standards.

Check back on this thread. Later today I plan to present another hunting scenario.


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## gdgli

Swampcollie said:


> Hunting is hunting, training is training. Your responsibility when hunting is to recover a downed bird as quickly as possible not ensure that the dog takes a straight line. Let the dog get the bird.


Happy to see you post. As my mentor said, "The goal is to get the bird". I agree with you. HUNTING IS HUNTING.


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## Swampcollie

Look at it this way. If you pulled the dog back because it cheated cover, and a crippled bird escaped, think about how you would explain your actions to a Conservation Officer who watched the episode unfold. (You may be looking at a summons in some states.)


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## gdgli

Swampcollie said:


> Look at it this way. If you pulled the dog back because it cheated cover, and a crippled bird escaped, think about how you would explain your actions to a Conservation Officer who watched the episode unfold. (You may be looking at a summons in some states.)


Exactly. I once lost a crippled black duck that did the diving/snorkeling routine because I didn't retrieve it fast enough. Since then getting the bird is my top priority. I felt terrible about losing that bird.


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## FTGoldens

I don't get to hunt as much as gdgli, so my comments are limited in both quantity and quality (esp. the latter). And, nearly all of my hunting is for waterfowl. 
These are just random thoughts ....

My trial dogs hunt. It's as much a break from the routine for them as it is for me.

My standards are admittedly relaxed when hunting, but I don't throw them out the window either. If I blow a whistle, I expect my dog to sit (well, actually to turn around and tread water until I give a cast) ... PERIOD. If there's not a response to the whistle, consequences follow (in most instances, I am able to hunt with a collar on the dog).
Must the dog take the cast ... yes.
Must the dog be steady ... mostly.

HOWEVER, I do not hunt with a dog that is not at least through transition. It's not worth the hassle, or the risk of screwing up some milestone that I've reached with the dog, if it's not fairly solid.

In addition (this is not my original thought), I believe that dogs, at least most fairly well trained retrievers, are situational learners. That is, they understand the difference between hunting and trialing (but see CAVEAT, below).

CAVEAT: I co-owned one pretty good trial dog. Said trial dog was competitive in Opens and Ams. Said trial dog was running very well and my hopes were mounting for a strong fall trial season. Without prior warning, said co-owner took said trial dog dove hunting on Wednesday and Thursday. I picked up said dog Thursday night so I could run an Open the next morning. Said trial dog crept on the first bird down, and the second bird, and broke on the third bird ... it was a quad, so the dog never even knew that there was a flyer being shot! So, at least for my trial dogs, hunting during trial season is probably not gonna happen again.

FTGoldens


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## gdgli

FT

Some things I do not compromise on. Response to the whistle is one. Delivery to hand is another. Admittedly, when I hunt I prefer to take the bird from the dog while she is facing me while still standing. Steadiness...well I do my best but the truth is when the guns go off and the birds are falling...well you know what happens. Especially when your eyes are off the dog and you are busy shooting.


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## gdgli

OK, new scenario. You are pheasant hunting. Bird flushes, your hunting partner hits the bird lightly. It glides across the field 80 yards into the woods for maybe another 20 yards. Your dog is not able to mark it because he either 1) is busy retrieving another bird or 2) the nature of the cover does not allow the dog to visually mark the bird.

Sooooo, how do you handle this one?

Not an uncommon scenario for pheasant hunting in my area.


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## marsh mop

FTGoldens said:


> CAVEAT: I co-owned one pretty good trial dog. Said trial dog was competitive in Opens and Ams. Said trial dog was running very well and my hopes were mounting for a strong fall trial season. Without prior warning, said co-owner took said trial dog dove hunting on Wednesday and Thursday. I picked up said dog Thursday night so I could run an Open the next morning. Said trial dog crept on the first bird down, and the second bird, and broke on the third bird ... it was a quad, so the dog never even knew that there was a flyer being shot! So, at least for my trial dogs, hunting during trial season is probably not gonna happen again.
> 
> FTGoldens


Never trust Johnny, bad Johnny!!!


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## hotel4dogs

Very common here, too. I just send him in the general direction of the fall and let him look for it. He knows that's what's expected. The command is still just "take it" because implied in that has always been "and don't come back until you find it". Sometimes I'll give him a cast to get him downwind of *about* where I think it went down if he's having a real hard time finding it. He seems to be pretty good at guessing how far birds usually fall, but if one flies a goodly distance frequently he will pull up and hunt short.
BTW that's exactly the scenario in the "hunt dead" portion of the AKC flushing spaniel tests. The dog is sent in the general direction of the downed bird and has 5 minutes to find it and bring it back. You don't know exactly where it is, either.
Oh, and steady to wing and shot is simply non-negotiable, along with delivery to hand.



gdgli said:


> OK, new scenario. You are pheasant hunting. Bird flushes, your hunting partner hits the bird lightly. It glides across the field 80 yards into the woods for maybe another 20 yards. Your dog is not able to mark it because he either 1) is busy retrieving another bird or 2) the nature of the cover does not allow the dog to visually mark the bird.
> 
> Sooooo, how do you handle this one?
> 
> Not an uncommon scenario for pheasant hunting in my area.


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## gdgli

Your post shows that you have hunting experience. There is more than one way to handle this. 

More on this later.


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## Alaska7133

A couple of weeks ago we were shooting live flyers in training. I was having a bad day and couldn't hit the broad side of the barn for some reason. DH couldn't either. So one duck got away. The winds were super high that day, the ducks had a terrible time flying. It was also about 5 degrees. I watched where the duck landed in the brush pile on the far side of the field. I knew that the weather would keep him planted in that brush pile where he felt safe. So when we were done training an hour later, I walked out with Riot, who's never had to hunt one up before. About 100' or so from the brush pile, I turned Riot loose. He hadn't seen that bird fall, but he knew what was up somehow. He just knew exactly what to do. He came up with that bird pretty quickly after scrambling around the brush pile chasing the duck. He came to heel nicely and we walked back to the truck and put the unharmed live flyer back in his bird crate. For Riot that's as close to hunting as he has gotten so far. I'm not ready to take him full on hunting yet until we're solid on handling. But that day he did well for me. I don't feel like there were any negatives results in training the next day.


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## K9-Design

Stacey, we've had many instances like that of flyers getting loose in training and what fun to have the dogs go "search" for it! Sophie and Fisher were the stars at that. I'm not sure if Bally's ever been put to that task, I think I use fewer flyers with him. Toward the end of Fisher's life when he couldn't exercise as much I would often go plant a duck in the woods (best form of cover we have here) and after a while let him go find it. He always did. Super fun 
I've been hunting exactly one day in my life. Doves. Bally went. Exactly one time was a bird shot that resembled a mark. It was about 30 yards away, he marked it, I sent him for it, he brought it back and didn't eat it, and the hunter I was with thought this dog was a freakin' genius. The rest of the time it was "the bird fell over there, let's go find it." Nothing resembled training for tests or trials, other than maybe being steady and delivering to hand. In hunting you are not being judged, and no one will care if you walk out there yourself and hunt it up, the dog hunts its way to a blind, you have fifty cast refusals, or you throw rocks to get your dog in the water. If you hunt and test/trial I think it would have to be a very careful balance of what you will or won't accept for your dog's skill level in both venues.


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> A couple of weeks ago we were shooting live flyers in training. I was having a bad day and couldn't hit the broad side of the barn for some reason. DH couldn't either. So one duck got away. The winds were super high that day, the ducks had a terrible time flying. It was also about 5 degrees. I watched where the duck landed in the brush pile on the far side of the field. I knew that the weather would keep him planted in that brush pile where he felt safe. So when we were done training an hour later, I walked out with Riot, who's never had to hunt one up before. About 100' or so from the brush pile, I turned Riot loose. He hadn't seen that bird fall, but he knew what was up somehow. He just knew exactly what to do. He came up with that bird pretty quickly after scrambling around the brush pile chasing the duck. He came to heel nicely and we walked back to the truck and put the unharmed live flyer back in his bird crate. For Riot that's as close to hunting as he has gotten so far. I'm not ready to take him full on hunting yet until we're solid on handling. But that day he did well for me. I don't feel like there were any negatives results in training the next day.


And that is another way to handle it. It is nice to attach a command to this method.


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## Alaska7133

Command is "find it"


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## FTGoldens

gdgli said:


> OK, new scenario. You are pheasant hunting. Bird flushes, your hunting partner hits the bird lightly. It glides across the field 80 yards into the woods for maybe another 20 yards. Your dog is not able to mark it because he either 1) is busy retrieving another bird or 2) the nature of the cover does not allow the dog to visually mark the bird.
> 
> Sooooo, how do you handle this one?
> 
> Not an uncommon scenario for pheasant hunting in my area.


This reminds me of the time when I lived in an area with several local retriever clubs, including a GR breed club. Those clubs held "picnic" trials (this was before hunt tests existed in most parts of the country) during the off-trial seasons. It seems like we had a picnic trial nearly every weekend in December, January and February. We would have an Open, a Qual, a Derby/Puppy, and the really big stake was Hunting Dog Stake. In the latter stake, the judges could pretty much do whatever they wanted, from having the handlers start out lying down in a ditch with their dog on a remote sit on the opposite bank, to what we would consider to be field trial Open marks. But they always had a "hunt'm up" test, where they could exercise their imagination even more ... birds hung in trees, on top of a stump, and even with the birds mostly under water. These were incredibly fun!
I wish more clubs would hold picnic trials these days.

FTGoldens


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## Alaska7133

FT and gdgli,
This is exactly what a spaniel hunt test is. The dog quarters across the field looking for that downed bird. The series is called "hunt dead". Goldens are especially good at it! 
NAHRA has a variation. The dog has to find a dead duck that has been drug around a field. The idea is finding that wounded bird.

NAHRA is kind of interesting in how they run their hunt tests. They are the originators of hunt tests. They have stuck very closely to a hunting scenario for testing. It's very cool when you go to the line and a judge is holding a shotgun and a duck call. The judge will blow the duck call, the duck is thrown or launched by a gunner station, and the judge shoots a blank from his shotgun. It could be a single, double or triple, depending on the level. Or the line is in a boat at the edge of the water and the dog launches from the boat. In my opinion if you wanted to train your dog for hunting, NAHRA is going to give you as close as experience as possible. AKC on the other hand, not so much. AKC's hunt tests are very mechanical. This year I'm going to try to be more like what a hunting scenario is when I judge AKC. I might take the NAHRA test for judging too and start judging their stakes. Anyone else on here that judges NAHRA?


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## K9-Design

Great new signature picture Stacey! Fun stuff


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## gdgli

Some comments on this pheasant gliding into the woods:

That pheasant is not dead. You need to get to this bird as quickly as possible. Pheasants move once they hit the ground and they move fast. And that is exactly why I like a really fast dog.

Stacey's duck can also move. I have seen hundreds at a continental shoot move several yards after being lightly hit.

Change this to a chukar partridge. My experience: A wounded chukar can bury itself in the leaves. OK, chukars do have lots of scent but finding a bird completely covered by leaves puts a new twist on things.


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## gdgli

New scenario. You are duck hunting a pond. You are shooting well today. You drop two birds, one on land and the other in the pond. Your dog marked them both. The bird in the pond is a lightly hit cripple and swam across the pond and has disappeared while your dog was retrieving the land mark. Your dog delivers the first bird. 

Now what do you do?


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## gdgli

I just want to add that I am having fun with this. These scenarios are taken from some of my past hunts.


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## Pilgrim123

I'm no hunter - and this has been fun for me, too!


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## hotel4dogs

What was the reason for having the dog retrieve the land mark first?



gdgli said:


> New scenario. You are duck hunting a pond. You are shooting well today. You drop two birds, one on land and the other in the pond. Your dog marked them both. The bird in the pond is a lightly hit cripple and swam across the pond and has disappeared while your dog was retrieving the land mark. Your dog delivers the first bird.
> 
> Now what do you do?


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## gdgli

hotel4dogs said:


> What was the reason for having the dog retrieve the land mark first?


Last bird down, offers quick retrieve, that is the one your dog wants first. You might even have a young dog that is not trained in selection. 

The issue I wanted to emphasize is you have a double, the dog has marked both birds but you are now presented with the memory bird that is no longer there.


Hey, I am asking the questions here.:wink2:What would you have done? I think that these scenarios have many solutions.

More discussion after I see what you have to say.


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## hotel4dogs

I asked because I wondered if you were just sending the dog for the last bird down, and so your answer is yes.
I would send him for the memory bird instead of the go-bird, and have done so in tests. I'd rather have him pick up the harder bird first, especially if I think there's a chance that bird is going to disappear. 
I did in the water series of the WCX at 2012 National. The memory bird plopped down on the shoreline, behind a bunch of brush and fallen tree branches. The go-bird was a long-ish swim into clear water. Jackie Mertens was one judge, Mitch White the other one. Clearly Jackie had set up the test  . 
I was afraid that he wasn't going to remember where the memory bird had gone, since it was behind a bunch of junk. So I turned him and sent him to the memory bird first. In fact, that's where the description "more heart than brains" was coined to fit him, because the dumb dog went right through the bushes/tree branches/etc. rather than going around them when he was on his way back with the bird, and he got stuck. He did manage to dislodge himself, which was fortunate, as I didn't feel like going over there to try to free him up. Didn't drop the bird, lol. 
By the time all this messing around had finished, what was to have been the go-bird, but was now his memory bird, had drifted WAY in toward shore, as there was a strong wind that day. It was just a quick little swim in open clear water, with the bird very visible. 
Only 12 of the 36 dogs passed the WCX flight we were in, and I'm sure most of the fails came on that water series.




gdgli said:


> Last bird down, offers quick retrieve, that is the one your dog wants first. You might even have a young dog that is not trained in selection.
> 
> The issue I wanted to emphasize is you have a double, the dog has marked both birds but you are now presented with the memory bird that is no longer there.
> 
> 
> Hey, I am asking the questions here.:wink2:What would you have done? I think that these scenarios have many solutions.
> 
> More discussion after I see what you have to say.


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## gdgli

hotel4dogs

I am just messing with you a bit. I do like to tease. I am glad that you are looking at this. Your answer is a good one.
I do wish others would weigh in on this. Anyway, here are the things I would consider. It is wintertime, that is duck season. Cold water. A lightly hit duck. Your double is two flyers. No guarantee that your ducks are dead.

There are other ways to handle this.


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## Alaska7133

When a chukar is lightly hit and glides off into the trees/brush, send one eyed Reilly. With his really bad sight (blind in one eye and had PU), he had a nose that made up the difference. We would just wait and wait, but he'd come up with that bird! His nose was undeniable. He was always so proud of himself coming up with a "lost" bird. Maybe the lack of sight made him rely on his nose even more?

As for selection on a double, I would hope there was something about that memory bird that caught my dog's attention if I turned them to the memory bird first. Something that would inspire them to not ignore my direction change to memory bird. Maybe a wing flap or a quack, something that would help the dog focus in that direction of the memory bird. That's what I would hope for.


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## hotel4dogs

I would hope my dog does what I tell him to do


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## gdgli

OK, concerning my scenario as written: Dog comes back from the mark on land and delivers the bird. Now I will run this as a blind. I am sending the dog after a bird that is not in the AOF. I would "no" the dog off the area of the fall and send. We practiced this from the time we started blinds. BUT---Oh what suction! Don't forget, flyer that falls in the proximity of maybe a dozen decoys and "splash". (Who ever heard of two flyers in a series in a hunt test?)

Now for how I would prefer to handle it. It is duck season, today is a typical day (I hunted today.). Fifteen to twenty mph wind, 35 deg temperature. Sure I could run this as a blind but why? I have no need to prove that my dog will stop and tread water in this weather. And I don't want to resort to several casts while the dog is in the water. I have no need to practice my casts while hunting. Doing this only increases the dog's exposure to the elements. I will shoot that duck on the water to kill it. Then I can run this double any way I want to. Ever see a dog chase a lightly hit bird for several minutes? It happens! And it could get ugly. Dogs do get tired.


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## hollyk

Winter had an interesting series last year in a hunt test. It was an around the horn triple with the middle bird landing on the edge of flooded grass and tossed from the top of a hill. The hillside was covered in blackberries. It was a test early in the season and the birds were tiny and young. Winter's bird ended up in the flooded grass not on the edge. When I sent Winter for the middle mark she took a great line but went right over the AOF. She hunted the bank and the worked into the water and found nothing. She then got back up on the bank and worked her way up the hill crashing her way though blackberries and disappeared. A couple of seconds later she came out of the blackberries with a bird. Appearantly a test bird, that was actually a nice size, ended up in the blackberries and they were too thick for anyone to retrieve it. 
Winter's bird that landed in the water must have sunk because it was never found.


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## ArchersMom

hollyk said:


> Winter had an interesting series last year in a hunt test. It was an around the horn triple with the middle bird landing on the edge of flooded grass and tossed from the top of a hill. The hillside was covered in blackberries. It was a test early in the season and the birds were tiny and young. Winter's bird ended up in the flooded grass not on the edge. When I sent Winter for the middle mark she took a great line but went right over the AOF. She hunted the bank and the worked into the water and found nothing. She then got back up on the bank and worked her way up the hill crashing her way though blackberries and disappeared. A couple of seconds later she came out of the blackberries with a bird. Appearantly a test bird, that was actually a nice size, ended up in the blackberries and they were too thick for anyone to retrieve it.
> Winter's bird that landed in the water must have sunk because it was never found.


Was this early in the year on Sauvie's? I think I remember watching this setup but I didn't see you two run.


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## hollyk

Yes, it was. 
The last two years that club has had out of area Master National judges at the double header in May. One was from Alabama and the other from Wisconsin or maybe it was Minnesota, both set really nice tests.


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## gdgli

Shortly presenting a new scenario. All scenarios are drawn from my own hunting. 

In my opinion, no right answers. But of course I present my way of handling things.


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## gdgli

OK. Four of us are hunting pheasants in switchgrass. We are walking in a line. A bird is flushed, it is dropped while flying into the woods. The dog was not able to mark it. Two of us are near (30 yds.?) the woods. We call the dog to us and send the dog into the woods as a blind. The dog goes into the woods and turns around and runs between us and behind us. We call the dog back, repeat. Same thing. Can't call him back on the third time. 

Soooo...How do you handle this? This has an interesting outcome. As I said, these are from experience.


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## Swampcollie

There comes a time where you have to trust that black thing on the end of the dogs face.


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## gdgli

Swampcollie said:


> There comes a time where you have to trust that black thing on the end of the dogs face.


And THANK YOU Swampcollie. 

We swore at the dog and proceeded to walk forward into the woods to look for that pheasant. We did not find it but put up a good search. Several minutes later the dog comes up from behind us with the bird! And I was totally surprised. This means that the pheasant took a path through the switchgrass between us and we did not see it at all. I cannot say this happens frequently but plenty of times a wounded pheasant will double back, usually around you. 

This taught me two things: 1) Pheasant behavior and 2) Trust the dog.


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## gdgli

OK, today an easier one.

You are duck hunting from a boat, sitting in the boat. Boat has some camouflage. The boat is afloat, i.e. not pulled up on land.

1. Where do you place your dog?
2. How do you send your dog?
3. How do you receive the bird?
4. How do you get the dog back in the boat?
5. What instructions do you give your gunning partners?

Some things to think about. Also, some things to train for. I practice everything that may be useful during the hunt.


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## gdgli

1. The dog will be on my left. There will be a space in the camouflage blind so that he can mark birds. My shotgun is a pump gun which will throw ejected shells to the right. I don't want them flying across my dog's face.
2. Dog is sent on his name, no fussing with lining up the marks.
3. The dog will swim up to the boat and want to jump in. I take the bird while the dog is still in the water. 
4. Then I help the dog by grabbing the skin at the back of the neck and lifting him so he can get his front paws over the gunnel, then press down to help the dog get leverage. He then can get his rear legs up and over. The boat is a Jon Boat.
5. Instructions to gunning partners: No shooting at anything while the dog is in the water.

Item 1 extra: If you are shooting you will lose eye contact with the dog. Not a bad idea to tether the dog. If you are not shooting (like at a continental shoot) it is a different situation, you will be watching your dog.

Item 4 extra: If the boat is up against a marsh bank, the dog may be able to go up on the bank and enter the boat that way. Also, some guys have a ramp for the dog to get him in the boat.


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## gdgli

When hunt tests first started we trained for many of these scenarios. Hunt tests had a lot of hunters back then. I suspect that many present day hunt testers are not familiar with this and are not training for this.

The GR News Nov-Dec 2016 has an article BEGINNING OF HUNTING TESTS, PART II. 
Wendy Johnston describes the "hunt it up" blind" which is my pheasant in the woods scenario. And Dawn Terrill (my favorite person to train with) states "...tests were much more original and fun. We had to sneak up to water; we frequently ran dogs from boats or hidden blinds in cover...".

Take a look at the article if you can.


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## K9-Design

I remember seeing a master test about 13-14 years ago that had a "hunt it up" blind across a channel. Bob Swift was one of the judges. I wonder if he would set that up again.
I also remember running out of boats even at the Junior and Senior level being more popular. I had to honor in a Senior test with Slater, with the dog sitting in the boat. Frankly, I perceived it as dangerous and unnecessary, a gimmick in a test. You have to remember that not all handlers will be mobile enough to get into a boat, or weird hidey blinds, or whatever. I think it's better judges focus on good, challenging marks and blinds rather than stuff like this.


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## gdgli

k9

I am not being critical of the current state of hunting tests. However, a little history.

"There is a new kind of retriever trial! And it is about time. The hunter is finally going to get what he wants and needs." Quote taken from GAME DOG (Wolters). A similar sentiment was also expressed by Bill Tarrant.

The early tests were for hunters and run by hunters. They knew the answers to all the scenarios that I posted. And they were able to get in and out of boats. Tests have changed. Although the founders of hunting tests did not want to see what is going on today (tests were never to resemble field trials in any way) I have now conceded that sometimes you have to change.


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## ArchersMom

I've never really thought as much into how we hunt. I'll have to think about how it translates into tests next season. This scenario is usually how we hunt.

1. When we're in a boat, I don't place the dog in any particular place. Sometimes the bow of the boat is safest and easiest for the dog to get out from. We don't own a boat but hunt with friends whom have different styles of boats. When we hunt with blinds on public land, sometimes the dogs access point is on the right side. 

2. Teal is sent out on her name. She doesn't have the best attention span for hunting and so she often naps between birds. She never goes before she's sent but doesn't see every bird fall. So she gets to run a blind pretty often. Archer leaps before he's sent but doesn't compete. We only hunt one dog at a time.

3. The bird must be delivered to hand before the dog gets in the boat. Usually then he/she is sent for the next bird. If there's a lively cripple, the other Hunter goes out in a kayak or smaller boat.

4. Both dogs have neoprene jackets with handles to help pull them into the boat. The boat on the lake has a dog ladder that attaches to the rear.

5. Only instructions are not to shoot when the dog is out and only one person handles the dog, the owner or if it's just DH and I, we decide beforehand.


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## gdgli

ArchersMom

Some comments: I feel that the stern is a more stable position. Another plan is to have the dog on land and send as a remote send. I own a neoprene jacket but haven't used it. 

A sneakboat may present another problem. Curved deck. Also look at the TDB, a popular duckboat. I have difficulty getting into it myself. I would like to know what those guys do.

BTW, glad to hear that you are hunting your dogs.


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## ArchersMom

I'll have to ask what style of boat it is where we have her on the bow. That's the lake boat and the bow has a sort of platform so we can't use that space for much else. Usually we anchor near some trees. I'd say DH took well over 100 birds just to himself this year. The canvasback hunts were especially successful. We didn't get to train as much as I would've liked, but Teal got a lot of exposure and I can get 100+ yard swimbys from her now.


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## gdgli

Nice pic! Glad to hear of the successful hunts!

I just have to ask, looks like a bufflehead in your picture. What are you doing with it?


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## ArchersMom

gdgli said:


> Nice pic! Glad to hear of the successful hunts!
> 
> I just have to ask, looks like a bufflehead in your picture. What are you doing with it?


He will be pepperoni  most of the ducks besides cans and blue bills will be. Last year it was Summer sausage.


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## K9-Design

gdgli said:


> k9
> 
> I am not being critical of the current state of hunting tests. However, a little history.
> 
> "There is a new kind of retriever trial! And it is about time. The hunter is finally going to get what he wants and needs." Quote taken from GAME DOG (Wolters). A similar sentiment was also expressed by Bill Tarrant.
> 
> The early tests were for hunters and run by hunters. They knew the answers to all the scenarios that I posted. And they were able to get in and out of boats. Tests have changed. Although the founders of hunting tests did not want to see what is going on today (tests were never to resemble field trials in any way) I have now conceded that sometimes you have to change.


Hunt tests of today might resemble field trials of 30 years ago but certainly they are not approaching field trials of today. Hunt tests are still doable for the average person. Maybe not easy, but attainable. 

I don't believe AKC hunt tests were developed "For hunters, by hunters." Maybe UKC or NAHRA. Personally, if it's a dog registry licensing the event and it's the dog garnering the recognition that is then recorded by the dog registry, then IMO it should be about testing the DOG -- NOT the handler (hunter). AKC hunt tests are about testing the skills and training that would make the dog a good hunting dog. It is not about testing the handler or the team on how well they hunt. Big difference there. 

My very good friend and sometimes training partner has had two hip replacements and now working on two knee replacements. One down, one to go. She has extremely limited physical capabilities. Getting into, out of, and handling a dog in a boat, would be COMPLETELY out of the question for her. She has handled her dog to a JH, SH and now FOUR Master passes. Setting up little gimmicks in the name of "resembling hunting" would exclude her from the sport. She is here to demonstrate her dog's training and natural abilities, NOT her abilities or desires to hunt birds. You have to keep in mind as a judge, you are going to get this type of handler at every test. It's about testing the DOGS -- NOT the handlers.


----------



## gdgli

k9

With all due respect for you and your opinion I must inform you that I was there from the beginning when there was nothing and then it was only NAHRA. I actually have the AKC rule book from July 9, 1985. If you really knew the history of the Hunting Tests you would not be making these statements.

My mentor Guy Fornuto initiated the NEF which helped play a role in establishing Hunting Tests. Please see Nov/Dec 1988 Gun Dog Magazine. Guy was asked to go around the country by the AKC to help train clubs on giving tests and to standardize judging. Quote from the article: "These are hunting tests, and therefore should present a clear hunting image. Of paramount importance is the judges' "hunting scenario" at the start of each test."

You stated: I don't believe AKC hunt tests were developed "For hunters, by hunters." Well I have to tell you, BELIEVE IT. I just quoted Richard Wolters GAME DOG and James Spencer's article. If you don't know of their influence on the sport, just ask. And FYI, the AKC became interested only after they saw that it was a money maker. The rest of the story includes threats and litigation that I don't want to get into.

I can't fault you for not knowing this about Hunting Tests. You are just like the many other young people testing. And you don't care that Hunting Tests have changed quite a bit. You are testing for other reasons. You see, hunters were using this to keep their dogs trained in the off season, have something to do, couldn't afford trialing (very expensive), couldn't afford pros. Something they could do with maybe just a little less commitment. 

"For hunters, by hunters." This is why the oldest people in the sport who are judging are the ones who are now considered "difficult" or "peculiar" IMO. They have not changed their ideas. I myself have decided that I have to.

By the way, I do have video of that seminar mentioned in the Gun Dog article. Very interesting. James Spencer and Guy are in it as well as others that are recognizable. OK, they are a lot younger.

If you would like to become better informed on the history I would suggest that you read some of the above literature. Also TRAINING THE HUNTING RETRIEVER by Bill Tarrant. Also, you might talk to Jack Jagoda if you run into him. He is still trialing.

I hope that those reading this post and the entire thread have learned at least a little something.


----------



## FTGoldens

ArchersMom said:


> He will be pepperoni  most of the ducks besides cans and blue bills will be. Last year it was Summer sausage.


Pepperoni ... really?

Would you mind sharing the recipe?


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## Swampcollie

Just a bit of history, NAHRA and the AKC were together in the beginning. Then the AKC split off to do their own thing when there was disagreement about the finer points of where the direction of the program should go.


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## Swampcollie

gdgli said:


> k9
> 
> 
> "For hunters, by hunters." This is why the oldest people in the sport who are judging are the ones who are now considered "difficult" or "peculiar" IMO. They have not changed their ideas. I myself have decided that I have to.


True, There have been changes along the way.

Somewhere I have the old original AKC Hunt Test video uploaded to You tube. It was filmed at our event back in the dark ages of 1985. Back then you had to be prepared for a lot more variety in a test. Nearly every Junior Test had an upland "Hunt em up" and you may have had more than one dog at the line, Senior and Master tests might have quartering and flushing too. 

The rules haven't changed much since then, but you don't see a lot of variation anymore. Most Judges just do the very minimum they have to in order to call it a legitimate test and call it good. 

How long has it been since you saw a Junior test with a "hunt em up" or six marks in it? How about a Senior with more than four marks?


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## nolefan

Gdgli - The chances of me getting my hands on 1988 issue of Gundog are slim - is there a possibility I could talk you into posting relevant articles or emailing copies to me?


----------



## gdgli

nolefan

More than happy to make a copy for you and mail it to you or email it. I need my son for emailing copies, I am tech challenged. I will also look for older magazines. Problem is I think I threw them out. Just PM me your info.


----------



## ArchersMom

FTGoldens said:


> Pepperoni ... really?
> 
> Would you mind sharing the recipe?


This will be my first time trying it. My husband's uncle has his goose make into pepperoni every year at a butcher shop and it's delicious. More the large slices pepperoni than sticks. I add pork fat to the mixture for flavor and casings from the local butcher. Besides that we make about 20+ lbs of sausage all by ourselves.


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## hollyk

One of the guys I train with has shared his duck pepperoni. Oh my gosh is it good. His is done commercially. Wow, I'm impressed you make your own! Another partner, who bow hunts can you imagine that, has shared elk jerky. It's so yummy.


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## gdgli

Warning: I have eaten exactly one bufflehead. I marinated it a day, used a recipe that I used for bluebill...Took me five days to eat half the bird, a couple of bites at a time. And that is a small bird. I couldn't take it, I finally had to throw it out. I will never shoot another one.

Maybe they taste different in your neck of the woods but thought I would give you a heads up.


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## ArchersMom

Don't worry, he's not our first bufflehead. He'll make great pepperoni either way. I can perfectly picture you trying and struggling to eat that tiny bird though :grin2: I didn't grow up eating wild game. My first time cooking and eating mallard went about the same. Luckily my husband eats anything so it didn't go to waste.


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## Alaska7133

The reason I don't shoot many ducks is, I hate cleaning them. Upland birds are oh so much easier!


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> The reason I don't shoot many ducks is, I hate cleaning them. Upland birds are oh so much easier!


Almost all of us here breast out our ducks. I will hang a pheasant a couple of weeks if I am going to eat it. However, it will be harder to pluck.

As for Canada Goose, I prefer to roast a whole bird but what a project plucking one. And then there are feathers all over the place. We get the greater Canadas here, they are pretty big.


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## gdgli

I would like to refocus on the hunting scenarios. 

Next scenario: You are hunting a tidal creek that is about 60 yards wide. You have falling tide that has made quite a current. You hit a duck that is over the decoys. It is lightly hit and flies up out over the marsh but falls out of the sky maybe 150 yards into the marsh. How do you handle this one?

Tidal creek, current, salt marsh are hints that there are issues.


----------



## K9-Design

I am happy that some people think I'm still a Junior Handler! I'll take it. 
The origins and history of hunt test development is interesting but is it important for people running in the sport today? Maybe. Everything evolves. If AKC got started in it you can bet it was about providing a new venue in which to make money. I still don't like the implication (ESPECIALLY IN UKC/HRC -- AKC is less so by far) that they are testing for HUNTERS. No -- they are testing DOGS and their skills that would make them a good hunter. NOT how well their handlers can hunt. Again -- there is a big difference there. 
You're right -- I participate in hunt tests and field trials because I am a dog trainer, not a hunter. I enjoy the strategy of training a dog to achieve at the Master+ level. I'll take a dog trainer over a hunter to set up a test or trial any day of the week. 
I have all the old Wolters, Spencer, etc, training books. Some have great stuff in them still applicable today, some are really archaic with laughable training techniques we have left behind decades ago. My job as a DOG TRAINER is to pick and choose what will help my dog be successful in my chosen venue. 




gdgli said:


> k9
> 
> With all due respect for you and your opinion I must inform you that I was there from the beginning when there was nothing and then it was only NAHRA. I actually have the AKC rule book from July 9, 1985. If you really knew the history of the Hunting Tests you would not be making these statements.
> 
> My mentor Guy Fornuto initiated the NEF which helped play a role in establishing Hunting Tests. Please see Nov/Dec 1988 Gun Dog Magazine. Guy was asked to go around the country by the AKC to help train clubs on giving tests and to standardize judging. Quote from the article: "These are hunting tests, and therefore should present a clear hunting image. Of paramount importance is the judges' "hunting scenario" at the start of each test."
> 
> You stated: I don't believe AKC hunt tests were developed "For hunters, by hunters." Well I have to tell you, BELIEVE IT. I just quoted Richard Wolters GAME DOG and James Spencer's article. If you don't know of their influence on the sport, just ask. And FYI, the AKC became interested only after they saw that it was a money maker. The rest of the story includes threats and litigation that I don't want to get into.
> 
> I can't fault you for not knowing this about Hunting Tests. You are just like the many other young people testing. And you don't care that Hunting Tests have changed quite a bit. You are testing for other reasons. You see, hunters were using this to keep their dogs trained in the off season, have something to do, couldn't afford trialing (very expensive), couldn't afford pros. Something they could do with maybe just a little less commitment.
> 
> "For hunters, by hunters." This is why the oldest people in the sport who are judging are the ones who are now considered "difficult" or "peculiar" IMO. They have not changed their ideas. I myself have decided that I have to.
> 
> By the way, I do have video of that seminar mentioned in the Gun Dog article. Very interesting. James Spencer and Guy are in it as well as others that are recognizable. OK, they are a lot younger.
> 
> If you would like to become better informed on the history I would suggest that you read some of the above literature. Also TRAINING THE HUNTING RETRIEVER by Bill Tarrant. Also, you might talk to Jack Jagoda if you run into him. He is still trialing.
> 
> I hope that those reading this post and the entire thread have learned at least a little something.


----------



## gdgli

k9

I look at you and your goals with respect. I am not looking down on the hunt testers that are in it for reasons other than hunting. Never mind what I may have thought in the past. As stated above, I have changed.

I would like to refocus on hunting scenarios if possible.


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## gdgli

k9

I think that you had mentioned that you had been on a dove hunt. I do not know anything about that. We do not have a season in NY. Can you possibly describe what the hunt was like? Cover? Terrain? Number of hunters? Dogs? Decoys? Hunting blinds? Any possible scenarios that may occur? Issues?

I think that many on here would like to hear about this and it would fit right in with this thread.


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## gdgli

gdgli said:


> I would like to refocus on the hunting scenarios.
> 
> Next scenario: You are hunting a tidal creek that is about 60 yards wide. You have falling tide that has made quite a current. You hit a duck that is over the decoys. It is lightly hit and flies up out over the marsh but falls out of the sky maybe 150 yards into the marsh. How do you handle this one?
> 
> Tidal creek, current, salt marsh are hints that there are issues.


OK, I know very few people hunt the salt marsh. Here are the issues. The current in the creek will be a strong one. You will be hunting from a boat. If the tide has fallen, the boat will be lower than the marsh. One creek I hunt has a 6 ft. tide. Salt marsh will have broken sea shells, horseshoe crab exoskeletons, mussel shells, etc. Sea water has a freezing point of 28 deg so the water may be colder than you think. The marsh itself is not a level "plain". There may be mosquito ditches in the marsh.


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## Alaska7133

Our salt marshes are tough to hunt. 38 feet between high and low tide. Treacherous soils that suck your feet down. Super tall grasses that dogs can't see over. Vast mud flats that can be hard to see where it's good to walk or not. And super confusing hunting regulations. What is federal, state or city park. We're you can use shotgun, bow, etc. very hard to learn. I think the regs up here keep many people from duck hunting. Sigh. Of course the shortening days and cold coming in doesn't help. Sometimes I feel like a penguin waggling out to hunt in the marshes with all my layers. The only good news is, it's only a 10 min drive from my house.

I have a friend up here that hunts sandhill cranes. They use layout blinds in a field and wait for the cranes to come into the field to land. Cranes are super noisy so they are hard to miss coming in. Then you sit up and shoot. Their dogs do not like picking up the huge cranes, they have chessies. I've never eaten crane.


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> Our salt marshes are tough to hunt. 38 feet between high and low tide. Treacherous soils that suck your feet down. Super tall grasses that dogs can't see over. Vast mud flats that can be hard to see where it's good to walk or not. And super confusing hunting regulations. What is federal, state or city park. We're you can use shotgun, bow, etc. very hard to learn. I think the regs up here keep many people from duck hunting. Sigh. Of course the shortening days and cold coming in doesn't help. Sometimes I feel like a penguin waggling out to hunt in the marshes with all my layers. The only good news is, it's only a 10 min drive from my house.
> 
> I have a friend up here that hunts sandhill cranes. They use layout blinds in a field and wait for the cranes to come into the field to land. Cranes are super noisy so they are hard to miss coming in. Then you sit up and shoot. Their dogs do not like picking up the huge cranes, they have chessies. I've never eaten crane.


Thanks Stacey. You mentioned the concerns I have with hunting on the salt marsh. The dog may never see the bird go down. The silt in a creek or up on the marsh is treacherous, like quicksand. A dog can tear a ligament going through that mud, the same mud in which I sink in up to my crotch. Tidal pools on the marsh that contain the same silt. Debris. In my scenario, this dog would run a total of 300 yards through this marsh---150 out and 150 back. And the treacherous ditches that are covered over and hard to see. Add to that a tough swim in cold water.

I discussed this scenario with a field trialer/duck hunter from Maryland. His response, like mine, is "That's when you jump into the boat with the dog and go across the creek and find the best way to the bird".


----------



## gdgli

I think this scenario merits a little more analysis because some of this applies to all hunting. When you scout an area you scout for birds, a good hide, the surrounding land where birds may fall, and the water you will be in. And form a plan.

There is a creek that I like to drift, engine off, when fluke fishing. This may be 800 yards NW of the creek that I mentioned in my scenario. Where it meets another creek something happens to the current. My boat will start to spin in a circle as if it is in some kind of whirlpool. Too bad, it is a wicked spot to shoot. Little cove off of a golf course where you can get ducks and geese. I would not allow my dog to retrieve through water like this. I can only guess at what might happen to the dog. Maybe nothing or maybe panic and a catastrophe. I don't want to find out.

Thanks again Stacey. We have experienced the same stuff. At another time I will tell you about State parkland boundaries, a hapless game warden and my duckhunt last week. I dodged a ticket.


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## Alaska7133

Gdgli, I bet tickets are easy to get! When I'm looking to hire for my construction company, I look on state court records for background check. If I don't find a ticket for fishing in wrong area, poaching, or something similar, I know they haven't lived up here wrong. There are so many ways to go sideways with fish and game authorities.


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## gdgli

Alaska7133 said:


> Gdgli, I bet tickets are easy to get! When I'm looking to hire for my construction company, I look on state court records for background check. If I don't find a ticket for fishing in wrong area, poaching, or something similar, I know they haven't lived up here wrong. There are so many ways to go sideways with fish and game authorities.



Now that is very funny!


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## Alaska7133

Do you know how many tickets I've seen over the years for fishing over the line? Meaning past the line on a map that you aren't supposed to go past? No marker exists but what is on a map. Or tickets for over limit fishing. The upper part of a river has a 6 per day limit, but you floated to the lower part of the river where it's only 3 per day. Not only a ticket, but they take your fish and your gear. Thankfully I don't have any of those tickets, but I'm rare.


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## gdgli

I was really hoping to hear more about dove hunting from one of our forum members. If anyone has experience with this I think it would go great in this thread. If not, I will post another scenario. Maybe by the end of the day.


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## ArchersMom

I tried dove hunting once. Turned out to be just a nice morning dog walk.


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## gdgli

ArchersMom said:


> I tried dove hunting once. Turned out to be just a nice morning dog walk.


Oh no! You walked around trying to spot doves hoping to get a shot?


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## ArchersMom

Walked out to a spot I heard was good for dove hunting, didn't see a thing so we walked back to the car. I may have just gotten lost in the wildlife area because I never did find the trees I was looking for. I did enjoy the sunrise and the time with my dogs. Won't be trying again unless I get a guide though.


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## K9-Design

George, like I said I've been dove hunting exactly once so I'm no expert. All I know are doves are very small and very fast, and they zoom overhead in little groups, you shoot at them hoping to knock one down. They are typically within about 30 yards away. They fall and you walk over to where you thought you saw them land and then the dogs race around and try to find them. They are really tiny and fly past you at about MACH 4. Having the dogs there is more fun for the dogs as I'm not sure they found the birds any faster than a human could.


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## reddog90

ArchersMom said:


> Walked out to a spot I heard was good for dove hunting, didn't see a thing so we walked back to the car. I may have just gotten lost in the wildlife area because I never did find the trees I was looking for. I did enjoy the sunrise and the time with my dogs. Won't be trying again unless I get a guide though.


I hunt gravel senderos, crop fields, or stock tanks in the evenings. Birds come to water before going to roost. They are drawn to many summer crops as well, especially sunflower. Dove hunting here is hard on dogs though. It's hot, snakes are out, small birds falling in thorny places, tiny feathers all in the dogs mouth, etc. But mainly it is hot. Desnaking clinics, knowing signs of overheating, and hunting water can help.


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## gdgli

k9

I know that you have dove hunted only once. That is why your input is good. Think of it this way. Ask me what I think about New York City. For me, nothing remarkable here. (I live in the city.) Ask someone who has visited and you might hear"Oh the skyscrapers. The UN. The restaurants. The Metropolitan Museum of Art". So to hear about your experience, we hear about what a newcomer saw and may comment on.

OK, what I hear from you---flocks, fast birds, close shots, tough shots, multiple guns (you did say dogs, my guess is multiple guns). My guess on dog work---breaking dogs---these sound like breaking birds, lots of distraction, lots of missed birds.


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## gdgli

reddog90


How to you snakeproof a dog? How successful is it? And how are you prepared for overheating of the dog?


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## reddog90

gdgli said:


> reddog90
> 
> 
> How to you snakeproof a dog? How successful is it? And how are you prepared for overheating of the dog?


There is a guy that travels around late summer (before dove and teal season) hosting desnaking clinics at various pros' kennels around the state. He has live rattlesnakes, cotton mouths, and copperheads (3 big ones around here). Cotton mouths and copperheads are usually in small wire cages on the ground. Rattle bugs are loose out in the yard; they have been defanged and mouths are taped shut with athletic tape. He walks your dog on lead by the live rattlesnakes. Dog smells snake, hears buzzing, sees snake on the ground, perks ears, goes in to check him out closer, snake strikes at dog, and dog receives a very strong ecollar stimulation. Nobody says a word. Dog associates pain felt with these nasty nope-ropes. Repeat as necessary just a couple times, but it doesn't take much. He does a similar drill with the caged snakes as well. It is not pretty to watch. It is very effective. You can tell which dogs at the clinic have been through it before. Most folks do one clinic a year for the first few years of a dog's hunting career. I also do a rattlesnake vaccine, not sure if it helps or not.

Overheating - I prefer to hunt over water, and swim the dog at the first sign of overheating. Water running through the hair cools better than just pouring a bottle of water on the dog and letting him sit there wet. I carry lots of water if I am not hunting over water, and try to sit in the shade. I won't send him on every retrieve to give him breaks to catch his breath and keep cool. I carry a thermometer and I also carry rubbing alcohol to pour on his pads, ear flaps, or underbelly to wick away heat if we start having problems. He has usually been at the kennel a month or so before dove season and is well conditioned to working in our heat, and I still do all this. House dogs that have been in the AC since duck season are very prone to overheating in dove and teal season.


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## K9-Design

Actually the dove were so small and fast it was hard for the dogs to focus on them in the sky, well at least my dog who had never done it and was used to seeing a much more obvious target. There were multiple hunters and multiple dogs, I wasn't shooting, but I picked a guy and stood near him and only once were we "ready" -- dog in heel position, birds flew over, guy shot one down, Bally tracked it and saw it fall, I sent him, he delivered to hand, the gunner thought my dog was an absolute genius. The rest of the time the dog never saw the birds in the air, someone would just say "hey I think one's over by the pile of rocks" and you'd walk over there and let the dog hunt it up. It was a fun morning, I would gladly go again.
Florida is not the world's safest place for duck hunting, and any sort of upland is usually a heat exhaustion waiting to happen (with canned birds that are not native species), and frankly, my parents don't hunt so I never grew up around it or with any interest in it. If I lived somewhere else especially if there were pheasants I think it would be very easy to get hooked on!


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## FTGoldens

Dove hunting around this region is very popular, with sunflower fields planted just for the doves...folks will pay good money to hunt doves over a sunflower field.  Milo is another good crop for doves, although my best dove hunts have been over watermelon fields!!!
I will take one of my dogs if it's not going to be super hot and I know that we can sit in the shade; and, of course, I carry a cooler with plenty of cool water in it.
A dog is quite useful on most hunts, whether the field has stubble or has been run over with a disc ... with our gray or black soil, it's amazing how hard it can be to see a dove in a bare field with absolutely NO cover.
Doves wrapped in bacon, with a small piece of jalapeno pepper as a neighbor, and a slathering of BBQ sauce, cooked over very hot charcoal...outstanding!!!
FTGoldens


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## gdgli

FT

"I carry a cooler with plenty of cool water in it."

How about a couple of Coronas?


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## reddog90

gdgli said:


> FT
> 
> "I carry a cooler with plenty of cool water in it."
> 
> How about a couple of Coronas?


Yes, dove hunting is a beer drinking and sh*t talking sport for us...


----------



## gdgli

Today we are hunting pheasants on a shooting preserve. There are four of us walking a small field walking in a line just like the hunter safety manual recommends. We flush a pheasant and it is lightly hit. It flies out maybe 100 yards. At issue are the other pheasants that are in the field. If the dog goes after this crippled pheasant there is a possibility she may flush other birds that are out of range during her retrieve. How do you handle this?

(I will be hunting a preserve with three friends this Sunday. This may happen.)
*
*


----------



## Golden Gibby

Usually when this happens to us I give a No Bird command, get the dogs back to me, then we hunt our way over to where the bird glided down. Then hopefully we find the bird.


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## Swampcollie

Like most things " it depends" . If you're toward the end of your hunt, let the dog go to find the bird. If you're early on in your hunt and the field is full of birds, NO BIRD, call the dog back and continue to work the cover in a methodical manner working your way to the area the bird dropped. Most of the time the dog will pick the bird up along the way as it hunts for more birds.


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## gdgli

G G and Swamp

Nice way to handle this. I like to think this situation does not happen much but it happens often enough to prepare for it. 

What I will be doing Sunday: Two of the guys are 23 years old, the other two of us are, well, mature. I will ask these two youngsters to hustle up (not run) to get up along the field. I am having them walk the Jeep trails that are the boundaries left and right of us. I will then send the dog. Hopefully if something goes up they will be in range to take it. Plus they have informed me that they are using full choke guns. Pardon me for the cliche' but a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. I hate to lose a cripple. Even though these are preserve birds, they are big strong pheasants and can run. I do like your suggestions but I have a mental block, tunnel vision. I want to get the cripple. 

(Hey, be easy on me guys.)


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## Alaska7133

Which of your dogs are you running?


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## gdgli

I am working Buffy. I am holding off on hunting Thor for a bit.


----------



## gdgli

We are rescheduling the hunt. Snow on the ground and a freezing rain today.

Snow poses a special problem. Some dogs seem to get snow turning to ice balls between the pads. Didn't happen to my Springer but did to some of my Goldens. It is bad. They will stop to bite the ice and then they start to bleed. It slows down the hunt too. I carry Vaseline and a rag. I will periodically put Vaseline on the paws and in between. It seems to help.


----------



## Golden Gibby

You might try Mushers Secret for the ice. Its a wax for their paws.
A friend of mine finds it helps his dog.


----------



## gdgli

Golden Gibby said:


> You might try Mushers Secret for the ice. Its a wax for their paws.
> A friend of mine finds it helps his dog.


I will check it out.


----------



## gdgli

Today we are working the dog at a duck shoot at a shooting preserve. I call these flighted ducks. There is a duck blind at the edge of a pond with two shooters in it. You and the dog are behind the blind. The ducks fly out of the woods from across the pond and most of the time drop down as they fly over, almost none set into the decoys. It is cold and the pond has frozen. Although most hit birds drop on land, some will land on the ice.

Questions:

How does your dog handle ice? 
What issues does the ice present?


----------



## nolefan

gdgli said:


> Today we are working the dog at a duck shoot at a shooting preserve. I call these flighted ducks. There is a duck blind at the edge of a pond with two shooters in it. You and the dog are behind the blind. The ducks fly out of the woods from across the pond and most of the time drop down as they fly over, almost none set into the decoys. It is cold and the pond has frozen. Although most hit birds drop on land, some will land on the ice.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> How does your dog handle ice?
> What issues does the ice present?


Well, my thought would be that you don't send a dog out onto ice that you wouldn't walk out on yourself, but then again I've never actually seen a pond frozen over so this is all theoretical  I'll be interested to see how this one evolves


----------



## ArchersMom

nolefan said:


> Well, my thought would be that you don't send a dog out onto ice that you wouldn't walk out on yourself, but then again I've never actually seen a pond frozen over so this is all theoretical  I'll be interested to see how this one evolves


Not usually thick ice. The humans usually been out on the pond to set decoys, or broken up the ice into chunks with a boat. Having the dog "break ice" isn't too unusual up here, but it's never thick ice. Just takes a determined dog not to give up. I found a YouTube video that kind of demonstrates


----------



## Swampcollie

Well, it depends upon how thick the ice is. If the ice is thick the dog will work on it the same as on land, no cover so very easy retrieves. If the ice is thin, you may have to get the boat out to break up the ice so the dog can swim. If it's very thin skim ice, the dog will break it on his own and make the retrieves.


----------



## gdgli

OK, I have to admit that I have limited experience with this but I can share what I have observed. Clarification needed. These are freshwater ponds. They seem solid on top, not skim ice. Remember, ponds freeze from the top. 

1) My dog has not run out onto the ice. She seems to get to the edge and is cautious. When she does go onto the ice, I have seen her slip just a bit. She does get the birds.
2) I fear that she could get an injury from slipping on the ice---pulled muscle, sprain, stretched ligament. 
My other fear is slipping through the ice.

I did see a young Chessie go out onto the ice and then fell through the ice in the middle of the pond. This was my friend's dog Bull. He could not get out---he kept sliding back in. This went on for several minutes and the dog became frantic. Finally the bird thrower came out onto the pond by sliding a jon boat across the ice. He pulled the dog out and into the boat.

I think that there is a lesson here. Be prepared. I would bet that there are plenty of people that hunt a pond by just walking up to it and have no boat. You then need to have another plan to rescue your dog.

How do you get ducks to decoy to a frozen pond? The old timers poured Bluette onto the ice to make it look like open water. I have heard of blue plastic sheets being used these days too. Add flat bottomed decoys. This is now a magnet for ducks.


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