# Excessive water consumption



## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Some of you may know of Brandy's story. She has been an excessive water drinker from the time we brought her home at 7 weeks. Her 2nd day home, she stood at the water bowl and drank 3 cups of water without taking a breath! 

As a result, she is 2-1/2 years old and even though we let her outside more than we do our other dogs, she is still having huge accidents indoors. She had 5 accidents on Saturday, and one on Sunday. This is better than what it was. She was up to 15 accidents despite going outside 25-30 times a day. And when she goes, it's a flood not a tinkle. She can't seem to stop herself from drinking water! 

We've exhausted all of the medical possibilities. We spent $750 to leave her at a trainer's for two weeks, but the trainer said she didn't notice any problems! So the issue falls back to us to handle on our own. 

We've decided to just put water down during meals, then take it up again. If the other two dogs want water, they usually let us know. They have had to learn to do this, since Brandy immediately drains any bowl we put down, so the water bowls are always empty. 

We live in the country without fences, so doggie doors are not an option. Besides, that treats the symptom and not the cause, which is her excessive drinking. 

Any suggestions for getting her beyond this behavior once and for all? I'd like to be able to put water down for all of the dogs so that the other two don't have to ask us for it. 

(I've tried ice. All that did was create a mess all over the house.)


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

Did you check her for Renal failure or Urinary infection.If the vet says she is fine,she might just be a big drinker.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

golden&hovawart said:


> Did you check her for Renal failure or Urinary infection.If the vet says she is fine,she might just be a big drinker.


That was my thought as well, but I think you have said before the vet didn't find anything wrong. I would have thought that her system would adjust to holding it longer as she matured though. Does it make a difference if you limit her water?


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

She even underwent exploratory surgery -- believe me EVERYTHING in her system has gotten the once-over medically. 

If we limit her water, we limit her accidents. The problem with that is that she acts thirsty all the time, and it also limits access to water by our other two dogs. It's hot here in Houston, and having two senior dogs in addition to Brandy, I just don't like the idea of limiting their water intake. 

*So I'm really looking for a way to train this trait out of her if possible.*


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## Jellybean's mom (Jul 6, 2007)

I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, but have your tried multiple water bowls with little amounts of water in them in multiple areas? She may just like drinking it ALL no matter how much is there. Maybe just a little in the bowl will satisfy her?

Also, I know this may sound weird, but we had a lab mix growing up that was the same way and it was more of an OCD thing for her that she really enjoyed the act of licking water. So we got her a really big water bottle like a hamster water bottle. She could lick to her hearts content buut not get huge amounts of water. 

Hope you find help!


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

That's pretty much what we have been doing. And she goes from bowl to bowl, drinking them dry. 

The hamster bottle sounds like a great option, but it still doesn't allow me to put down water for the other two. (Your lab mix sounds like she had much the same behavior as Brandy.)


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## Baileysmom (Aug 5, 2006)

Have they done an ultrasound on her kidneys or tested her for diabetes? Some sort of kidney problem would be my only guess (if dogs are like humans).


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

Is she dominant? Just wondering if she's trying to be in control of resources and by peeing in the house maybe marking? Just a thought. That must be really hard on you guys. I know you said you've had her medically screened, but did they check her bladder and ureters? We've had a couple of dogs with ectopic ureters recently. You've probably already done that but wanted to put it out there in case.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's a link to several different possible medical reasons for polydipsia and Polyuria in dogs:

Polydipsia and Polyuria in Dogs

Blackwell Synergy - J Small Animal Practice, Volume 46 Issue 1 Page 10-16, January 2005 (Article Abstract)

http://www.michvma.org/documents/MVC Proceedings/Nichols2.pdf

I like the hanster-style water bottle. Your others can drink that way, too. Did you try freezeing the entire bowl of water? That was it's not ice cubes that they can carry around, but a giant cube attached to the bowl that they have to lick?

-Stephanie


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

She's submissive, not dominant. And she's been tested for every possible medical reason for polyuria/polydipsia including her bladder, ureters, liver, kidneys, pituitary gland, etc. etc. We have spent thousands of dollars on medical tests, only to have them come back normal. 

What I'm looking for are some training/behavioral ideas for how to change this behavior. It's NOT medical, it's more cognitive/obsessive.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Is there anything else she really likes a lot? If there's a toy or a treat that she'll leave the water for maybe you could re-direct her after she's had a small drink.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Not a bad thought!


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## audreyannlow (Mar 5, 2007)

*Obsession?*

Just a thought...assuming no medical issues, that is... Golden Retrievers love water and work. They're _very_ intense workers. Does he have a hobby? Besides the obvious hunting stuff, there are tons of dog competitions, sports, and community service activities: agility, obedience, schutzhund (I don't see why not), mushing, SAR, therapy, etc.). One of my Goldens will actually put her paws into her water bowl, standing there all gloomy-tailed. That said, I've seen many dogs that don't drink nearly enough water (just like people).

The accidents are probably a separate behavioural thing. Evidently, whatever caused the dog to pee at your place didn't happen at the trainer's. How about keeping the dog crated or on leash at all times while indoors? Teach him a definite signal for going out, such as telling him to sit before you open the door. Or just put in a dog door? Make sure he's getting enough to do, plenty of training/play of some type or another. And food...I don't like dry kibble. We (the dogs and us) eat chicken and potato stew with fresh, varied, raw veggies. No salt added, it's yummy enough. I personally don't see how most dogs can eat dried food and drink barely anything!

Good luck!


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## Lexie's Mom (Dec 14, 2005)

i agree with Baileysmom. I've always heard that is a sign of a diabetic dog.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

audreyannlow said:


> Just a thought...assuming no medical issues, that is... Golden Retrievers love water and work. They're _very_ intense workers. Does he have a hobby? Besides the obvious hunting stuff, there are tons of dog competitions, sports, and community service activities: agility, obedience, schutzhund (I don't see why not), mushing, SAR, therapy, etc.). One of my Goldens will actually put her paws into her water bowl, standing there all gloomy-tailed. That said, I've seen many dogs that don't drink nearly enough water (just like people).
> 
> The accidents are probably a separate behavioural thing. Evidently, whatever caused the dog to pee at your place didn't happen at the trainer's. How about keeping the dog crated or on leash at all times while indoors? Teach him a definite signal for going out, such as telling him to sit before you open the door. Or just put in a dog door? Make sure he's getting enough to do, plenty of training/play of some type or another. And food...I don't like dry kibble. We (the dogs and us) eat chicken and potato stew with fresh, varied, raw veggies. No salt added, it's yummy enough. I personally don't see how most dogs can eat dried food and drink barely anything!
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks for the ideas. Brandy and I have been heavily into agility for more than a year. We had a blast, and plan to start up again in the next few months, but it did nothing to stop the behavior in question. 

Doggie doors aren't an option. The door opens to 5 acres of unfenced land, and a busy highway beyond that. But we did try poochie bells, which she got the hang of quickly. The problem is that by the time she rang the bell, she had to go so badly that she didn't give me time to get to the door, and had an accident while she waited. 

So it goes back to getting her to stop drinking so much water. The accident part will then take care of itself.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Lexie's Mom said:


> i agree with Baileysmom. I've always heard that is a sign of a diabetic dog.


Sounds like it, but it's not. Brandy's undergone ultrasounds, blood tests, urine tests and water deprivation tests for diabetes mellitus and diabetes insipidus. She's not diabetic.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

There is also something called diabetes insipidus(sp). It's not like the diabetes most people think of. It causes great thirst and lots of urinating too, if I remember correctly. I think I mentioned this to you way back on TGRS, so it's probably been ruled out.

Pets with Diabetes: Diabetes Insipidus


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I'd give the rabbit bottle thing a try - it's like a hamster bottle - just bigger. We used them in the pet shop (yes - I worked for one many moons ago.) on the cages for the puppies. They got their water just fine and it kept them from spilling it all over the place and kept it clean for them. 

Otherwise, I would just limit her like you have been doing so she doesn't flood. 

I've noticed Griff takes in much more water outside when we have the kiddie pool out. I have to make sure that I'm going to be home for a while afterwards because he needs out more often and floods when he goes afterwards.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Kimm said:


> There is also something called diabetes insipidus(sp). It's not like the diabetes most people think of. It causes great thirst and lots of urinating too, if I remember correctly. I think I mentioned this to you way back on TGRS, so it's probably been ruled out.
> 
> Pets with Diabetes: Diabetes Insipidus


Yes, it was ruled out quite a while ago. I'm very sure it's behavioral not medical.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> I've noticed Griff takes in much more water outside when we have the kiddie pool out. I have to make sure that I'm going to be home for a while afterwards because he needs out more often and floods when he goes afterwards.


That hits close to home, Jo. When we get the kiddie pools out around here, Brandy's eyes light up: It's just a HUGE water bowl to her! And yes, she DOES try to drink the whole thing.


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## GoldenShamus (Feb 26, 2007)

Brandy's Mom said:


> Some of you may know of Brandy's story. She has been an excessive water drinker from the time we brought her home at 7 weeks. Her 2nd day home, she stood at the water bowl and drank 3 cups of water without taking a breath!
> 
> As a result, she is 2-1/2 years old and even though we let her outside more than we do our other dogs, she is still having huge accidents indoors. She had 5 accidents on Saturday, and one on Sunday. This is better than what it was. She was up to 15 accidents despite going outside 25-30 times a day. And when she goes, it's a flood not a tinkle. She can't seem to stop herself from drinking water!
> 
> ...


When you mentioned the symptoms being going out and the cause being the excessive water drinking, I immediately thought differently.

The presenting problem is the excessive drinking, but what is the underlying cause? Does she lack something internally so that her brain doesn't recognize when she's not thirsty anymore? Is she nervous and drinking out of habit? 

I guess I'm thinking maybe there is an underlying reason, medically or behaviorally, why she feels the need to drink so much. Have you googled anything online, there are some good veterinary medical websites online, I wonder if there would be any information that might be helpful? I feel bad for you and her, it must be a very difficult and aggravating situation.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I've spent HOURS (probably closer to months in terms of time) on the Internet researching possible causes. She's been seen and tested by no fewer than 8 veterinarians, including Auburn Medical School, plus I've consulted twice with the top veterinary urologist in the country. They've all said she's healthy medically. 

This is why I'm convinced it's behavioral. But you may be right that something in her brain isn't wired right. 

Not sure how we'd test for something like that. So my thinking at this point is accepting that this is how she is. Now I am trying to determine if there's any way to use behavior modification to curb what appear to be her natural tendencies.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Increased Drinking and Urinating

I don't know how they check for brain related insipidus. 


1) kidney failure (chronic, acute, infectious (leptospirosis, esp.)) 
2) hyperadrenocorticism (Cushing's disease) 
3) diabetes mellitus 
4) liver failure 
5) hypoadrenocorticism (Addison's disease) 
6) pyometra (uterine infection, applies to females only, obviously) 
7) intestinal obstruction (occurs after toxins begin to be absorbed 
from the damaged intestine) 
8) pyelonephritis (infection of the kidney) 
9) hypercalcemia (most commonly from cancer) 
10) diabetes insipidus -- can be central (brain related) or 
nephrogenic (kidney related) 
11) behavioral or psychogenic water drinking 
12) acromegaly 
13) polycythemia 
14) hypokalemia 
15) renal glycosuria (Fanconi's syndrome) 
16) partial obstruction of the urinary tract 
17) neurologic damage leading to urine retention or difficulty voiding 
18) medications (diuretics, corticosteroids) 
19) pheochromocytoma (a form of cancer) 
20) pericardial effusion 
21) hypothyroidism (dogs) or hyperthyroidism (cats) -- not too common 
with these 
22) paraneoplastic syndromes (usually this is hypercalcemia but 
sometimes other substances linked to tumors cause increased drinking)


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## mainegirl (May 2, 2005)

Here are some websites i googled on obsessive drinking or ocd and dogs. you've probably seen these, but if not..... hope they help.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/10/021023065523.htm

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/140217.htm

http://chien-noir.com/ehrlichiosis.html

http://www.vetinfo4cats.com/csymptom.html#Excessive%20water%20drinking

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=26264

DogChannel.com

beth, moose and angel


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks, Kimm and Beth. I'm going with Psychogenic Polydipsia as the best description of what's going on. Nothing else fits. 

It's a good lead on where I might go from here.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Sorry I'm posting on the fly. 

See if you can locate any research done by this person. She lectured at a conference on pica and other behavorial disorders in cats and dogs.

*Dr. Ilana Reisner*

*The Way to a Pet’s Heart: Pica and Ingestive*
*Behavior Problems in Dogs and Cats*​

*Dr. Ilana Reisner*
*Abnormal eating and drinking behaviors can be quite troubling*​​​
*to owners and may pose health risks to pets. Although the*
*clinical signs of such disorders are similar (typically*​
*excessive or aberrant feeding or drinking), they may stem*
*from a variety of causes. Abnormal ingestive behavior is*
*secondary to a general medical condition and must be*
*distinguished from attention-seeking or other primary*
*behavior problems. The presentation, diagnosis and*
*management of the most common canine and feline eating*
*disorders will be addressed, including anorexia, obesity,*
*coprophagia (stool-eating) other forms of pica (ingestion*​
*of non-food items), and psychogenic polydipsia.*
http://www.mvcinfo.org/pdf/2004MidwestVeterinaryConferenceAnimalWelfareProgramBrochure.pdf


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## ID_Hannah (Jun 8, 2006)

If Brandy's obsessive drinking is behavioral only, I'm not really sure how I'd work with her to stop or slow it. You obviously don't want to make drinking negative in anyway, she still has to drink. 

I have friends who have a 4 year old golden who won't stop drinking either. They had resorted to giving her a mason jar full of water, I believe 3 or 4 times a day. If she had strenous exercise she got a bowl full and they just had to make frequent trips outside for a few hours. They didn't have other dogs to worry about, just cats. And they worked it out by watering the cats on top of the counter, which isn't ideal... They have a similiar outdoor situation, they live on acreage, literally on a forested mountainside. There's no way to fence it all to allow her to enjoy it. She'll generally stay close... until she spots a deer! 

This summer they got Annie an electronic fence so she can run freely outside. When they were first training her to avoid the flags, they set them up just a few inches apart seperating their kitchen/dining area from the rest of the house. They used an inside unit to block off the kitchen/dining and that was her first lesson in flags. They realized how nice it was to have her out from under foot in the kitchen & she can still see everything. So they left it up blocking the kitchen. The cat's water came back down to the floor. It wasn't the intended purpose, but a nice unintended one. 

I've never used an electronic fence and I know some people really don't like them, but it's an idea. Your other dogs could come and go freely from an area where the water stays and Brandy could have her daily water allowance.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

I know someone already posted an ice cube suggestion, but what about freezing her a giant bowl sized ice block for inside and outside?

Colossal Canines - Products For Large & Giant Breed Dogs
This is an outdoor one, but you can get the idea. For inside just put it in a bowl.
It would be less mess than a bunch of ice cubes and behaviorally, might start to break the obsession. 
There would be no real way to explore it, but she might have a problem with the nerves or senses that control thirst. She may never feel 'not' thirsty. 
Sending Brandy big hugs.
And btw, I love your signature line about Reyna, it's how I think of my Sadie


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

I plan to look up Dr. Reisner's e-mail address and send information to her. I've found that most vets involved in research are willing to share information with concerned owners. 

Thanks for the fence suggestion too, ID Hannah!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The only other idea I have would be to try a certified veterinary behaviorist. There are very few of them out there. Try the big vet schools like Davis or Cornell. Might be something that they medicate for while working to modify the behavior. 

You could try a homeopathic vet too -- see if Eastern Medicine has anything different to offer.

-Stephanie


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Diplomates

You can find a few here.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

moverking said:


> I know someone already posted an ice cube suggestion, but what about freezing her a giant bowl sized ice block for inside and outside?
> 
> Colossal Canines - Products For Large & Giant Breed Dogs
> This is an outdoor one, but you can get the idea. For inside just put it in a bowl.
> ...


Ahh, thanks for the comment about Reyna. She was very special. 

I tried the ice block once before when Brandy was younger without much success. But I might want to re-visit the idea because it would allow the other dogs to 'drink' as well. 

There is surprisingly little information online about how psychogenic polydipsia is treated. I did, however, find one vet's article that said limiting water access/intake for 3 to 10 weeks may help to break the cycle in her mind. 

The ice block, and the hamster bottle, are both good avenues. Thanks to everyone for your ideas!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Kimm said:


> Diplomates
> 
> You can find a few here.


Lore Haug, College Station, TX.

I know of Dr. Haug from the APDT list. She's extremely helpful!

-S


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Well, they do sometimes treat it like they do OCD in humans. I saw a few articles that spoke of medication. I don't like medicating, but there are times when it might be necessary. Found that out within my human family.


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

Kimm's diplomat link led me to some other sources, and I wound up sending three e-mails. One went to a former vet (who only knew Reyna, never Brandy), but who went on to do advanced study in animal behavior. I was surprised and happy to find her name. 

I'll update this thread if I get anything pertinent to add. 

Thanks again, everyone, for your ideas and contributions!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I hope it all works out for you both. Tucker sometimes has urine concentration problems and it raised it's ugly head this past week. Thankfully, it's not a constant problem, but when he stands there and cannot control the urine that flows from him, it's sad.


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## kowey (Feb 28, 2006)

If I remember my biology/chemistry lessons well (and yes, miracles DO occur) an exces of water drinking may lead to a shortage of salt in the blood which may cause haemolysis. Which is why one must never give dehrydated persons water "a volonté". Vice versa, if you have too much salt intake, you need to drink. Does your doggie eats too much salt? (Unnoticed - licking cement etc?) Maybe she needs more salt? Just an idea to help....


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

You're right that her urine is very dilute, but the problem has been constant even during those times that we switched foods. She's eating Wellness now, and I haven't heard anything of that being excessively high in sodium. Has anyone else?


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## mainegirl (May 2, 2005)

What about adding a little salt to her water? this might make her salt intake higher, or might make the water not as "drinkable" or tasty as before and have her drink less? Or how about those drinks with isotopes (i think gatorade used to be good for that ) I know babies when they are dehydrated take that stuff (brain freeze.... cannot remember name of product)

keep plugging away

beth, moose and angel


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## Brandy's Mom (Oct 5, 2005)

This fur child would drink pond scum if I let her. :yuck: She's not very discriminating. My luck she'd find the extra salt pretty darned tastey! :uhoh:


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## Swanolck (Jan 17, 2007)

mainegirl said:


> What about adding a little salt to her water? this might make her salt intake higher, or might make the water not as "drinkable" or tasty as before and have her drink less? Or how about those drinks with isotopes (i think gatorade used to be good for that ) I know babies when they are dehydrated take that stuff (brain freeze.... cannot remember name of product)
> 
> keep plugging away
> 
> beth, moose and angel



I think the baby stuff is called pedialyte.


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## kowey (Feb 28, 2006)

Mineral waters for sporters often contain the correct amount of salts: 0.9 % if my memory does not fool me. May be it's cheaper than the stuff for babies?


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