# Puppy showing aggression



## Badgergirl

I have a 4 month old golden puppy that seems to have two different personalities. He can be very sweet and loving. We just took him out of town this weekend and he was so well behaved, he acted like an adult dog and listened when we told him "off" if he jumped up on people. 

When we got home however, he turned in to naughty puppy, jumping and biting non-stop. We have tried every trick that the puppy books recommend and nothing has worked. I know that part is normal for a puppy and we're dealing with it. He's a very smart dog and has mastered, "sit," "laydown," and "stay."

What is starting to concern me though, is that every now and then he can be a little aggressive. He had a bone that he was really enjoying yesterday and when we were petting his head, he bared his teeth and started growling. Other times, he hasn't done this, he only acts like this every now and then. Also, I was testing him when I fed him and pet his head and he growled again. Then today, I went to get him from outside and he started jumping and biting me and tearing my pants. It was more than play biting, it was more aggressive. 

We seem to have established who is the "big dog," we have put him on his back and done the staring contest and he always gives in to us. In the morning when I wake him up, he is always super sweet and just lays on his back for me to rub his belly for a bit. 

I don't understand this aggression and it scares me. My husband is getting very frustrated too. I keep thinking he'll grow out of it because he'll go a long stretch of time not acting like that but then randomly he will. 

Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## Zazoo

I am having similar problem with Madison and she's only 8 weeks old.. I still just flip her over and stay calm and assertive... They sense if you have any type of fear.. I know this because I was petting her while she was eating once and I thought of the dog that bit me really bad a year ago and she started to growl at me.. Now, When she does that I just keeping thinking in my head, "I am the ruler/leader" over and over in my head so that she senses that I am the leader..
I am going to contact Madi's future obedience trainer for some advice on her, as I don't want this to become a habit with her.. I know part of the reason is because she was taken away from the mother to early.. So now I have to act like mom..
The only advice I could give is not give up on the flipping over whenever it happens.. And don't feel fear.. I know it's easier said then done as it's something I am fighting within myself all the time.. But I am the pack leader and she will not win..
Hope this helps a little..


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## aussieresc

I would not flip these pups over. Mother dogs don't do that, the pup goes on its back for the mom. You need to work on having the dog work for everything. If they are showing aggression during feeding, consider feeding by hand. Make the dog sit/stay before eating. If bones are a high value item for the dog I wouldn't give it to them. If you choose to give them these items then start working on trading games with the pup.


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## Tanyac

For starters, I would immediately stop any kind of dominance behaviour towards your puppies. Flipping over, pinning on their backs, staring them out, all no good in my book. The only thing this will achieve is them fearing you, not respecting. 

Your puppies are still very much babies and will test you constantly. It is up to you to decide how you will deal with the behaviour and stick to it. I have never messed with my dogs whilst they are eating, or with a bone, and we have no food aggression issues at all... if anything, so that your puppy associates you approaching them whilst eating, I would call their name and gently toss something extra tasty into their bowl then walk away. I don't think I'd enjoy eating if someone was always standing over my shoulder.

There are so many threads on here about puppies biting, I won't go over old ground, but firmness and kindness are the key. (if you go to the puppy pages, there is a lot of really sound advice there).

It can be a very frustrating time, especially if puppy is biting, breaking skin and clothes, but it doesn't last long, and is a very necessary part of a puppy learning about bite inhibition, so it doesn't grow into a dangerous dog.

Good luck, I hope it gets better soon...


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## Mirinde

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance statement.pdf

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonl...Statements/Combined_Punishment_Statements.pdf

Using 'dominance' to explain dog behavior ... (learnt to show aggression to avoid antic...)

Here are a few links from Victoria Stilwell's website address the concept of "dominance" in dogs, and the last one specifically mentions "Owners are often horrified when we explain that their dog is terrified of them, and is showing aggression because of the techniques they have used but its not their fault when they have been advised to do so, or watched unqualified 'behaviourists' recommending such techniques on TV." I am only going to assume this TV show being referenced is CM. 

Please _stop_ flipping your dogs. The only thing you are establishing for them is that they can't trust you. This is _especially_ important with the resource guarding that the OP is experiencing because resource guarding is largely a matter of trust. The growling and snarling are her warning signs to you that what she has is important and she does not trust you to respect that. If you are also practicing randomly taking away her food to "prevent" guarding, this is going to have the opposite reaction. I'm also confused about the staring contest you mentioned? What are you intending to show your dog with this? (sorry if that sounded snarky, I mean it as a genuine question!)


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## Zazoo

I had a Pom once and she flipped her baby on her back and bit down on her neck, not to hurt her, but to stop the aggressive behavior she was having. And when she let her go she was fine.. My Cat did the same thing with her kittens.. It looks terrible, but that is how nature teaches their young.. 
Now for Goldens Maddie is my first, and I only know what I have been taught by Cesar Millan.. I am here to learn also.. So I am sorry if I said something wrong..


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## solinvictus

*Do not ALPHA ROLL or PIN your puppies!!!!!!!!!!!!*
*http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...problems-issues/63089-alpha-roll-why-not.html*

*From August of 2009*
*++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++*
*ALPHA ROLL - why not?* 
Back in the 1930's and 1940's behavior scientist of that time studied wolves, and made assumptions that using an alpha roll was an acceptable way to help teach/train dogs.

Today many behavior scientists have changed their stance on the assumptions made in the past.

They have found that using the alpha roll is a violent act of aggression and when you do this to a dog you are in fact causing fear in that dog and to protect themselves they may strike back in fear.

The only time an alpha wolf deliberatly pins down another dog is to kill it.
A subordinate wolf may on its own show submission and roll on its side or back to a alpha but this is a choice and not being forced.

By alpha rolling a dog you are causing them to lose trust in your leadership which is the exact opposite of what you want.

I would hope that those that are trainers and behaviorist would explain this better than I could above and offer any good solid links from todays behaviorists on the subject.

here are a few I found myself.

http://www.4pawsu.com/DebunkingDomMyth.pdf


"Take alpha rolls. The early researchers thought that the higher-ranking wolf forcibly rolled
subordinate wolves to exert his dominance. Modern studies have shown that alpha rolls are part
of an appeasement ritual offered voluntarily by the subordinate wolf, not forced by the superior.
A subordinate wolf offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf “pins” it, the
subordinate rolls over and presents his belly. There is no force. Canine behaviorist Jean
Donaldson, author of the award-winning book​_The Culture Clash_, says, “The truth is, there is not
one documented case of a wolf forcefully rolling another wolf to the ground. Nor is there one
case of a mother wolf (or dog) ‘scruff-shaking’ her puppies.”
A wolf would flip another wolf against its will only if he were planning to kill it. The same goes​
for a mother shaking her pup by the scruff. Both are rare events."
_______________________________________________________________

Today Vet Behaviorist now believe that what was studied about wolves in the 1940's was because the wolves were not living in their normal habitat. They were wolves that were not of their own pack forced to live in captivity that they were not connected to.

From additional study of wolves in the wild wolves that would be considered Alpha are just actually mom and dad wolf. The pack consists of family members. The younger wolves of the family will submit to the mom and dad. Mom and Dad do not roll them.

If a wolf is Alpha Rolling another wolf it is not part of their own pack and it is a serious fight and the outcome most likely will be the death of the wolf that was rolled.

What your puppies are doing is natural puppy behavior. That doesn't mean it is appropriate for them to do living in a social setting such as a home with humans but it is part of their instinct. Sometimes it takes a lot of practicing good behavior (with training) before the good behavior habits over ride their natural tendencies. 

All the things like saying ouch (not to loud or exciting as it revs them back up) turning away and being a statue, removing yourself from the pup, asking for alternative behavior they all really do work it just takes time and consistency.


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## nixietink

My Golden Madison said:


> I had a Pom once and she flipped her baby on her back and bit down on her neck, not to hurt her, but to stop the aggressive behavior she was having. And when she let her go she was fine.. My Cat did the same thing with her kittens.. It looks terrible, but that is how nature teaches their young..
> Now for Goldens Maddie is my first, and I only know what I have been taught by Cesar Millan.. I am here to learn also.. So I am sorry if I said something wrong..


I would not worry, we are all always learning! 

Unfortunately, Cesar Millan has inundated the public with some reaaaally bad information. We do not need to bully around our dogs with "dominance"...there are plenty of other methods to getting results. Plus you build a good relationship with your pup in the process!

I would read the articles that Mirinde posted...they are full of great information.


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## Mirinde

For what it's worth, Cesar Millan has absolutely no professional qualifications, and many CPDT-KA and credentialed behaviorists very heavily disagree with his methods. 

Mine! by Jean Donaldson is a very valuable book for anyone struggling with resource guarding issues.


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## Zazoo

Thanks everyone that has posted about not flipping the dogs/pups.. I just told my hubby we can't flip our girl anymore.. What do you suggest for a pup that didn't get the social training from her Mom what was right and wrong as she was taken from the litter to early..


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## nixietink

My Golden Madison said:


> Thanks everyone that has posted about not flipping the dogs/pups.. I just told my hubby we can't flip our girl anymore.. What do you suggest for a pup that didn't get the social training from her Mom what was right and wrong as she was taken from the litter to early..


Do you have any friends with vaccinated dogs? Play dates will help her learn social skills...also a really good puppy class, too!!


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## Mirinde

Just wanted to let you know that I sent you a PM, My Golden Madison, so that we don't accidentally hijack the OP's thread =)


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## Zazoo

No I don't have any friends in this town, but I contacted the Pet Rescue and Adoption agency to see if we could be something started in our town.. I haven't heard back from her yet.. I wanted them to start a puppy kindergarten or something for our community puppies.. Then they could all learn together how to get along and play.. I have hired a obedience trainer but he doesn't come till she's 3 months old.. My sister has a dog but he isn't fixed and so she doesn't want my to bring Maddie over as she says he'll try mounting her and pee everywhere.. And she doesn't want that.. I was wanting to find someone here in town that might have had a litter of puppies in May and I could go over and let the mother dog help train my puppy in the proper behaviors.. Haven't found that yet either..  Feel so lost.. I only want what's best for my baby girl..


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## Zazoo

ok, thanks.. Going over to read it!!.. 



Mirinde said:


> Just wanted to let you know that I sent you a PM, My Golden Madison, so that we don't accidentally hijack the OP's thread =)


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## dberk

It is easy to say what NOT to do, harder to say what to do. 

I can relay my particular experience on resource guarding. I read awhile back (and used this method on my pup) - that if you constantly take food away, then give it immediately back, the puppy will learn to trust you in that you aren't going to keep the food, it comes right back. It DID NOT WORK in my case. I could add food to her bowl, take food out of her bowl, but if I touched her (petted her back) - I would get growls and teeth. She would hide under the table if I said "lunch time". 

I tried the hard/dominant approach to stopping the aggression - making her leave the bowl whenever she growled, ... just made matters worse. I switched to the softer approach - higher pitched voice, getting her to run to her food bowl, ... It took several months - but IT WORKED. She now comes running when I say "lunch time", and I can even pet her while she eats. No growling. 

Although I kind of hate to admit it - here is what I had to resort to for stopping the aggressiveness in my pup - I "BIT" HER BACK. Yep, clamped my teeth down on her muzzle. Didn't hurt her, but she got the message. Seemed to be the most "natural" thing to do as if I was her mom.

As for the Stillwell vs. Milan approach - I think the right approach is somewhere in between. I want BOTH respect and love. The only Stillwell shows I saw were mostly bribing the dog with food - I wonder what you do when the dog is hyper/violent/... i.e. in a situation beyond the point where it cares about food. Or for dogs who aren't food or toy motivated.


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## HiTideGoldens

I'm not a dog trainer or behaviorist, but taking the food from the dog just logically doesn't make sense to me, even if you give it back. Either way you're still taking it from them so if you walk up to them when they're eating they anticipate you TAKING their food, which is why their resource guarding in the first place. It seems to make much more logical sense to make feeding a happy time (not a time when you might walk over and randomly take the food away) and if you approach during feeding it's a good thing because they like what happens once you're there - tossing treats over near them, hand feeding the kibble, etc. They see you as the giver of food, not the taker of food.


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## solinvictus

I wonder what you do when the dog is hyper/violent/... i.e. in a situation beyond the point where it cares about food. Or for dogs who aren't food or toy motivated.

_____________________

You don't work with the dog when it is hyper/violent.... ABOVE THRESHOLD.... you put the dog in a safe place (contain them) and when they are calm you have to start building the bond between you. You start by hand feeding the dog all of it's food. Over time you start having the dog do things for that food. The dog will eventually be hungry enough to want to eat.

It is always good to reward a dog for good behavior. After a dog is well trained the reward (food/toy) isn't used every time you ask the dog for the behavior. The reward except for praise becomes intermittent. Sometimes they get it/sometimes they don't/sometimes they get a major jackpot.

Once the dog is *completely *trained the dog will do it without the reward. If the dog doesn't it isn't trained well enough.

But, again, the dog does need those rewards sometimes. 
It is the paycheck.
If you worked and got payed for the day. Then you worked and didn't get payed for the day. And this happens over and over would you work?


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## HiTideGoldens

I forgot to post also that, with regards to a crazy puppy, I've been there. In hindsight, Jack was crazy. (Although I think I expected him to be after reading posts on here.  ) We only realized this after we got Chloe, which is funny because she's a gigantic pain in the butt right now at almost a year old! 

When Jack was a baby my arms had scratches and puppy teeth marks on them for some time. And all my pajama bottoms and sweats that I owned at the time ended up with puppy-height holes in them from him trying to play tug-o-war with my pants. He wasn't very affectionate initially either, I had to lure him to my lap with toys or bully sticks. He also couldn't walk on a leash at all and would chew the leash constantly if we tried (we resorted to soaking the leash in bitter apple before every walk, it worked.) Oh, and he would attack my hair too. Just a crazy crazy puppy. 

It does get better though. At 20 months Jack is just a wonderful dog. He's the sweetest boy and I just love him.


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## CarolinaCasey

Research "resource guarding"


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## dberk

Therein lies the problem. I have seen many cases where you can't contain the dog, put them in a safe place. You have to be able get some level of control to even do that. You can't bribe them into a safe place because they are out of control. And you can't always wait for the dog to get into control so that it reacts to the bribe. And by bribe I mean food/toys/attention/... whatever that particular dog cherishes.

You can/should always train by bribing/positive reinforcement, I am just saying there are scenarios where that can't work because you may not have the time to wait. So training positively - absolutely, but sometimes positive reinforcement doesn't work if you are in a non-training (need to control the dog) situation.

Example - I volunteer at a local SPCA and have had to help others on several occasions break up dog fights. Mainly with Pit Bulls. We try whistles, buckets of water, grabbing their hind legs, ... And no amount of positive reinforcement will make them stop. And you can't just wait it out. I would be curious to see what Victoria would do in that situation. 

I am not doubting some/most of her methods - i just don't think she shows a complete view, just those in which bribing works. Nor do I agree with all of Cesar's approaches - I think the truth lies somewhere between, and finding that balance is the trick - and it varies by dog and situation.


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## solinvictus

" You have to be able get some level of control to even do that."

I really do understand what you are saying. 

Now comes the but....

If the owner has the dog out and about there already should have been some level of training. The owner must as quickly and as calmly remove the dog from the area or problem to get the dog below threshold and then ask for those alternate behaviors.

Then the owner has to go and work on the problem without distractions or the lowest level of dstractions until the dog will listen.

If the dog is hyper/violent the dog should not be out in public until a bond has been created. 

If an owner has a dog that for some reason becomes fearful and acts hyper/violent the again the owner must as calmly as possible remove the dog from the problem then ask for behaviors that they have trained. Then do not put the dog in that position by training with baby steps.


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## aussieresc

dberk said:


> Therein lies the problem. I have seen many cases where you can't contain the dog, put them in a safe place. You have to be able get some level of control to even do that.


If you have a dog that is that out of control that you can't contain it then you need to be working with a behaviorist. A dog like this is considered a danger and I would be very reluctant to use any force that might escalate a bad situation.


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## Badgergirl

*Thank you for responses*

Thank you everyone for your responses. I am calming down a little bit because my puppy's aggression isn't excessive and it is very rare (only the 2nd occurence in the 2 months that we've had him). Now that he finally has all of his shots we'll be able to socialize him a bit with other dogs which i'm hoping will help. 

I will definitely be checking out some of these links. It is just frustrating that there are different training methods when we think we're doing what we should be doing, we find out that it may not in fact be the correct training procedure. 

One of you had a question about the "staring" that I was talking about. I don't remember what book it was in but it was in one of my puppy books in which it was discussing establishing dominence with your dog, so they see you as the "alpha." It just mentioned looking the dog in the eye and not being the first one to break the contact because it shows weakness. That was just one of the things it mentioned. 

My puppy is normally very sweet and likes to chew his bones on my lap while i'm sitting on the floor. And normally we don't have any problem taking a bone, rawhide or toy out of his mouth (he'll take these to the door wanting to take them outside and we prefer that these stay in the house). Like I said, it is rare when he shows this aggression.

He's getting to that age that no matter how long you walk him or play with him he is still a bundle of energy. I'm hoping that group puppy classes and socialization will help. He has encountered aggressive dogs before without becoming aggressive.


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## solinvictus

"one of my puppy books in which it was discussing establishing dominence with your dog, so they see you as the "alpha."

Behavior scientist do not believe that anymore. 

Most of us have raised dogs with the outdated information and ended up with great dogs. As the new science has come out we all have been slowly learning and advancing. 

But like anyone of us our dogs lives are improved by training with love and kindness vs the old fear and punishment type methods.

On Resource guarding, you want to practice give and drop it, and leave it with low level items, every day. And if this happens again before your pup knows those commands really well, you want to disfuse the situation. Go get something super yummy and drop it away from the item that is causing the problem then get the dog to go in the crate/ out in the yard/ in another room and go back alone and put the item away. That isn't actually training it is just making sure the problem doesn't escalate. And definately read the book by Jean Donaldson "Mine".


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## laprincessa

My Golden Madison said:


> I had a Pom once and she flipped her baby on her back and bit down on her neck, not to hurt her, but to stop the aggressive behavior she was having. And when she let her go she was fine.. My Cat did the same thing with her kittens.. It looks terrible, but that is how nature teaches their young..
> Now for Goldens Maddie is my first, and I only know what I have been taught by Cesar Millan.. I am here to learn also.. So I am sorry if I said something wrong..


OH NO! You said the C word! Cesar is not well loved by most here, so just be prepared, get your flame proof suit on, and get ready to get spanked.


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## Zazoo

LOL.. Thanks.. I can take it.. I read it as a learning curve.. I need to learn and no matter how they say it, is teaching me.. So I appreciate their input greatly and will apply it.. Like I've mentioned earlier, I want her to be the best dog ever.. 



laprincessa said:


> OH NO! You said the C word! Cesar is not well loved by most here, so just be prepared, get your flame proof suit on, and get ready to get spanked.


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## mylissyk

Just keep in mind that what you see Cesar Milan work with are severe cases that need an intervention. Your puppy doesn't need that type of correction, she just need consistent, patient training to learn what you want from her. She is not one of the aggressive dogs that Cesar handles on his show.

I would bet that he really never needed to roll or pin Junior because he built the foundation of trust and taught expected behavior without needing to use force on his puppy.


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## laprincessa

When Max was a puppy, I read Cesar, and The Monks of New Skeete, and Patricia McConnell, and Golden Retrievers for Dummies...........and I'm still reading, and learning, and taking from each one what works, and leaving what doesn't. (And Cesar ain't bad to look at!)


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## aerolor

Post deleted - Cesar Milan is good to look at and that's all I am saying.


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## dberk

mylissyk said:


> Just keep in mind that what you see Cesar Milan work with are severe cases that need an intervention. Your puppy doesn't need that type of correction, she just need consistent, patient training to learn what you want from her. She is not one of the aggressive dogs that Cesar handles on his show.
> 
> I would bet that he really never needed to roll or pin Junior because he built the foundation of trust and taught expected behavior without needing to use force on his puppy.


Exactly! You tune the approach to the situation.


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## Selli-Belle

dberk said:


> Although I kind of hate to admit it - here is what I had to resort to for stopping the aggressiveness in my pup - I "BIT" HER BACK. Yep, clamped my teeth down on her muzzle. Didn't hurt her, but she got the message. Seemed to be the most "natural" thing to do as if I was her mom.


Please Please Please don't try this! I had a friend you tried a similar approach with his Rottie to establish his "dominance." One day when the man was gone his Rottie tried the same approach on his girlfriend. She was trapped with a Rottie mouth around her throat until he got home. Needless to say the Rottie was put to sleep and his girlfriend left him.


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## Selli-Belle

dberk said:


> Therein lies the problem. I have seen many cases where you can't contain the dog, put them in a safe place. You have to be able get some level of control to even do that. You can't bribe them into a safe place because they are out of control. And you can't always wait for the dog to get into control so that it reacts to the bribe. And by bribe I mean food/toys/attention/... whatever that particular dog cherishes.
> 
> You can/should always train by bribing/positive reinforcement, I am just saying there are scenarios where that can't work because you may not have the time to wait. So training positively - absolutely, but sometimes positive reinforcement doesn't work if you are in a non-training (need to control the dog) situation.
> 
> Example - I volunteer at a local SPCA and have had to help others on several occasions break up dog fights. Mainly with Pit Bulls. We try whistles, buckets of water, grabbing their hind legs, ... And no amount of positive reinforcement will make them stop. And you can't just wait it out. I would be curious to see what Victoria would do in that situation.
> 
> I am not doubting some/most of her methods - i just don't think she shows a complete view, just those in which bribing works. Nor do I agree with all of Cesar's approaches - I think the truth lies somewhere between, and finding that balance is the trick - and it varies by dog and situation.


There is a difference between training and management. When a dog is out-of-control you have to manage the situation, but that has nothing to do with training or training techniques and believe me alpha rolling an already out-of-control dog is a recipe for disaster. Remember an out-of-control dog is not in a state where they can learn, they are purely reacting on emotion, so by alpha rolling, you are adding another negative emotion, fear, into the mix and associating it with you. A responsible owner or shelter volunteer or employee does EVERYTHING they can to ensure that their dogs never get over the threshold to out-of-control aggressiveness, so they can work on training when the dog is in an emotional state to learn.


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## dberk

Selli-Belle said:


> Please Please Please don't try this! I had a friend you tried a similar approach with his Rottie to establish his "dominance." One day when the man was gone his Rottie tried the same approach on his girlfriend. She was trapped with a Rottie mouth around her throat until he got home. Needless to say the Rottie was put to sleep and his girlfriend left him.


Please, I really don't think you can relate the two. If you could - how do you explain other Rottie (or other breed) attacks? Did every owner of every dog do the same thing? And how do you explain that in my case it actually worked? 

At this point we are just trading anecdotes. 

There has been, and will continue to be, a back-n-forth discussion over whether an owner needs to be seen as dominant by his/her dog. And one camp will never convince the other. It like religion and politics. 

For me, I think that until we understand more about dog psychology - who really knows? In either case, even if there is a need for the owner to be seen as dominant, there are many other ways to show dominance than through physically touching your dog.


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## dberk

Selli-Belle said:


> There is a difference between training and management. When a dog is out-of-control you have to manage the situation, but that has nothing to do with training or training techniques and believe me alpha rolling an already out-of-control dog is a recipe for disaster. Remember an out-of-control dog is not in a state where they can learn, they are purely reacting on emotion, so by alpha rolling, you are adding another negative emotion, fear, into the mix and associating it with you. A responsible owner or shelter volunteer or employee does EVERYTHING they can to ensure that their dogs never get over the threshold to out-of-control aggressiveness, so they can work on training when the dog is in an emotional state to learn.


No disagreement from me.


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## Zazoo

I love all you guys!!! Thanks for the loads of info I've read.. I've took on the puppy roll, when she bites, I yelp really loud and then ignore her for a bit.. It's working amazingly.. Well besides now she's mouthing me off.. lol I love my baby girl.. She is awesome!!!!


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## FlyingQuizini

dberk said:


> Therein lies the problem. I have seen many cases where you can't contain the dog, put them in a safe place. You have to be able get some level of control to even do that. You can't bribe them into a safe place because they are out of control. And you can't always wait for the dog to get into control so that it reacts to the bribe. And by bribe I mean food/toys/attention/... whatever that particular dog cherishes.
> 
> You can/should always train by bribing/positive reinforcement, I am just saying there are scenarios where that can't work because you may not have the time to wait. So training positively - absolutely, but sometimes positive reinforcement doesn't work if you are in a non-training (need to control the dog) situation.
> 
> Example - I volunteer at a local SPCA and have had to help others on several occasions break up dog fights. Mainly with Pit Bulls. We try whistles, buckets of water, grabbing their hind legs, ... And no amount of positive reinforcement will make them stop. And you can't just wait it out. I would be curious to see what Victoria would do in that situation.
> 
> I am not doubting some/most of her methods - i just don't think she shows a complete view, just those in which bribing works. Nor do I agree with all of Cesar's approaches - I think the truth lies somewhere between, and finding that balance is the trick - and it varies by dog and situation.


Just a couple thoughts: Positive reinforcement is not about bribing. (And as a positive reinforcement trainer, I'll admit that it really grates on my to hear people describe it that way.) It should be about rewarding desired behavior. Yes, plenty of people screw it up and use the reward as a bribe, but at the heart of the principle, that's not how it works.

It's always better to work an animal sub-threshold. Under normal circumstances, if he's too over-stimulated to respond to the reward (be it food, toys, praise), that's the first thing that has to be addressed so you can keep the dog in a better head space that's more conducive to learning.

Regarding your "what would Stillwell do in a fight situation" question ... I'm guessing the same damage control measures you do at the shelter. It's really apples and oranges to talk about the use of positive reinforcement in a fight situation. There's nothing about fighting that you want to reinforce. Rather, the goal is to use training and management to prevent fights. If that fails and one breaks out, it's just about damage control.


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## Sunny01

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I forgot to post also that, with regards to a crazy puppy, I've been there. In hindsight, Jack was crazy. (Although I think I expected him to be after reading posts on here.  ) We only realized this after we got Chloe, which is funny because she's a gigantic pain in the butt right now at almost a year old!
> 
> When Jack was a baby my arms had scratches and puppy teeth marks on them for some time. And all my pajama bottoms and sweats that I owned at the time ended up with puppy-height holes in them from him trying to play tug-o-war with my pants. He wasn't very affectionate initially either, I had to lure him to my lap with toys or bully sticks. He also couldn't walk on a leash at all and would chew the leash constantly if we tried (we resorted to soaking the leash in bitter apple before every walk, it worked.) Oh, and he would attack my hair too. Just a crazy crazy puppy.
> 
> It does get better though. At 20 months Jack is just a wonderful dog. He's the sweetest boy and I just love him.


 
Really?! I am so glad you posted this because that is EXACTLY (even the hair thing) how my puppy, Arrow, is! I was getting very disapointed because he hardly ever wants to snuggle up to me or be near me. I have been trying to build myself as very reinforcing, and its coming slowly, but its great to know that he might get more and more affectionate as time goes on and STOP CHEWING ON MY HANDS!


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