# Riley's visit with the new vet



## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

I don't have any advice but I am glad your new vet is taking Riley's health seriously. Fingers crossed it is an easy fix.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I would be talking to the previous vet about this especially if you paid for an exam. 

As for the heart issue, my Rottie had a heart arrhythmia due to his low thyroid and he lived a while after that diagnoses. He died from Hemangio so I couldnt say how long he would of lived if he didnt get that.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

scary to be sure.....glad to hear Riley will be seeing a cardiologist.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

When I transferred to a new vet recently--mostly because, with two dogs now, I wanted to go to the vet hospital closer to home--the new vet did a very thorough intake exam on my little spaniel. Then told me she has a heart murmur! I was NOT happy. They did a large work-up and had a cardiologist come in and do an ultrasound, and she is well enough to not need meds but will need monitoring from now on. Her breed is prone to mitral valve disease (she's a Cav King Chas Span), and I had always been on the lookout for it. So I was stunned to find that the other vet hadn't caught it. It's possible that she developed it within the last year since he'd seen her, but unlikely because it's really loud. 

I guess the truth is we have to be watchful with the vets and ask a lot of questions. I think I was just too trusting because I liked the man a lot and he was good with Tess. 

Here's hoping all is OK with your dog.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I am so glad you switched vets. Thank goodness because Riley will now be treated if he needs to be after the cardiologist reviews everything. 

I don't have any advice on whether the metabolism and heart issue are related, but do want to suggest that if the cardiologist suggests an echocardiogram, you might want to see if they will add in an abdominal sonogram at the same time, just to do a quick look/see and make sure things are okay. Our vet usually suggests the two together because it's cheaper to do it that way here, though both are very expensive IMO. We actually needed to do an abdominal sonogram on Toby, but added in the echocardiogram to just look and see and they discovered a mitral valve issue that we now monitor. I'm glad I know so we can monitor his activity levels a little closer. 

I'll keep both of you in my thoughts and prayers, but right now I'm very thankful you have a new veterinarian who is thorough! Try not to worry too much until you meet with the cardiologist. Now go pet Riley for me!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thank you for the good thoughts. I appreciate it.
And yes, I am SO glad we switched vets. This might turn out to be the best thing we've ever done. It's sure looking that way!



Dallas Gold said:


> I don't have any advice on whether the metabolism and heart issue are related, but do want to suggest that if the cardiologist suggests an echocardiogram, you might want to see if they will add in an abdominal sonogram at the same time, just to do a quick look/see and make sure things are okay. Our vet usually suggests the two together because it's cheaper to do it that way here, though both are very expensive IMO. We actually needed to do an abdominal sonogram on Toby, but added in the echocardiogram to just look and see and they discovered a mitral valve issue that we now monitor. I'm glad I know so we can monitor his activity levels a little closer.


Wow - it's great that you caught it!
He did say that we'll be doing an echo when we meet with the cardiologist, so I'll ask about the abdominal, too. He also said it might not be a bad idea to run a complete blood panel while we're at it. He's never had one, so the vet said it probably wouldn't hurt to check everything out. I think it's a good idea. I told him, whatever tests he thinks might be a good idea, just schedule them and let me know when we're supposed to be there. 

I asked about his activity level, and if I should limit him, etc. He said that he'd probably keep him on a leash for now - don't let him run around, chasing squirrells or anything. He didn't seem too worried about it. He said it's always better to be overly-cautious, so I felt a little better hearing that. I don't know this guy though, so I can't read him yet. 



OutWest said:


> When I transferred to a new vet recently--mostly because, with two dogs now, I wanted to go to the vet hospital closer to home--the new vet did a very thorough intake exam on my little spaniel. Then told me she has a heart murmur! I was NOT happy. They did a large work-up and had a cardiologist come in and do an ultrasound, and she is well enough to not need meds but will need monitoring from now on. Her breed is prone to mitral valve disease (she's a Cav King Chas Span), and I had always been on the lookout for it. So I was stunned to find that the other vet hadn't caught it. It's possible that she developed it within the last year since he'd seen her, but unlikely because it's really loud.


Again, it's great that you caught it! 
Yeah, I'm not real happy right now, either. This vet said that the arrhythmia has probably been there for a while and was pretty angry that our previous idiot didn't catch it. Normally, vets won't really say anything bad about other vets, but he said this guy just flat out didn't bother to listen to Riley's heart and he wasn't happy about it. 




Lincoln_16 said:


> I would be talking to the previous vet about this especially if you paid for an exam.


Oh, I'll be giving him a call, that's for sure. I just want to calm down a little bit first. I'm fuming right now, so it wouldn't be wise for me to call him at this point.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't blame you for being upset! SO glad you went to a new vet! and he sounds great!
Sending lots of prayers for Riley!!!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I wouldnt be surprised if he claims he listened to the heart but didnt hear anything so it must be a new issue...they will cover it up


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

> He did say that we'll be doing an echo when we meet with the cardiologist, so I'll ask about the abdominal, too. *He also said it might not be a bad idea to run a complete blood panel while we're at it. He's never had one, so the vet said it probably wouldn't hurt to check everything out. *I think it's a good idea. I told him, whatever tests he thinks might be a good idea, just schedule them and let me know when we're supposed to be there.
> 
> I asked about his activity level, and if I should limit him, etc. He said that he'd probably keep him on a leash for now - don't let him run around, chasing squirrells or anything. He didn't seem too worried about it. He said it's always better to be overly-cautious, so I felt a little better hearing that. I don't know this guy though, so I can't read him yet.


Unbelievable! OH MY! How old is Riley and he hasn't had a full blood panel ever? Yet another reason why I'm glad you have a new veterinarian! We've gotten our dogs complete panels every year of their lives and it's very helpful when things arise and we see a change in a value here or there. I'd definitely get that complete panel and keep it up at every annual exam. 

I'm also disgusted your first vet apparently didn't do a heart check with a stethoscope on Riley. That's standard operating procedure for our veterinary team because so much can be picked up. They also do eye checks each annual visit (not just Toby, but all of them got them), and blood pressure/heart rate checks. They get a rectal temperature at every visit as well and the old rectal exam at annual exam time. The vets are always checking out the ears while we are there too, for any old thing. Then they feel the dog--I mean hands all over the dog feeling for anything odd or off. They also get the full leg extensions and we go outside and I walk the dog(s) so the vet can check the dog's gait. No visit would be complete without a look in the mouth too. I'm so blessed with the veterinary team we use! 

IMO I'd forgo confronting the other vet. It will just cause you more upset and they won't be giving you any money back. It's just not worth it, but that's my personal opinion. Best to just sigh, shake your head and move on, thankful you have someone competent to take care of Riley now. I had a situation last summer with a dentist that basically ruined my mouth with veneers that kept on popping off. I finally went to a prosthodontist, who corrected everything, to the tune of $$$$$$$, and I'm happy. I had the new team call over to get my records sent over and that was all the former dentist needed to know.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeah but if this vet knows about this maybe he would be more inclined to actually check dogs hearts in exams.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

wow, it's sure a good thing you went to a new vet! Sending good thoughts that there's nothing serious wrong with Riley!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Yeah, I'm pretty surprised your old vet never listened to Riley's heart. I remember bringing Flora in at 7 weeks 3 days and that was one of the first things our vet did. I hope the arrhythmia is just an artifact of the thyroid issue!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Unbelievable! OH MY! How old is Riley and he hasn't had a full blood panel ever? Yet another reason why I'm glad you have a new veterinarian! We've gotten our dogs complete panels every year of their lives and it's very helpful when things arise and we see a change in a value here or there. I'd definitely get that complete panel and keep it up at every annual exam.
> 
> I'm also disgusted your first vet apparently didn't do a heart check with a stethoscope on Riley. That's standard operating procedure for our veterinary team because so much can be picked up. They also do eye checks each annual visit (not just Toby, but all of them got them), and blood pressure/heart rate checks. They get a rectal temperature at every visit as well and the old rectal exam at annual exam time. The vets are always checking out the ears while we are there too, for any old thing. Then they feel the dog--I mean hands all over the dog feeling for anything odd or off. They also get the full leg extensions and we go outside and I walk the dog(s) so the vet can check the dog's gait. No visit would be complete without a look in the mouth too. I'm so blessed with the veterinary team we use!
> 
> IMO I'd forgo confronting the other vet. It will just cause you more upset and they won't be giving you any money back. It's just not worth it, but that's my personal opinion. Best to just sigh, shake your head and move on, thankful you have someone competent to take care of Riley now. I had a situation last summer with a dentist that basically ruined my mouth with veneers that kept on popping off. I finally went to a prosthodontist, who corrected everything, to the tune of $$$$$$$, and I'm happy. I had the new team call over to get my records sent over and that was all the former dentist needed to know.


He just turned 4 in July and he's never had a full blood panel. We've been to three different vets with him (one was just for one visit - we found out real quick that she couldn't handle him, so we didn't go back) and not one of them have ever suggested a full blood panel for Riley. I didn't realize that vets are supposed to do those as part of a routine annual exam. We had blood panels done with Gunner, but we wer trying to get his EPI diagnosed. They never did them as part of a routine.

And nope, apparently he never bothered to break out the stethoscope. The old place takes your dog in the back to do the exam, so you don't know _what_ they've done, or haven't done. Last year, this guy flat out said that his heart and lungs sound real good. This year, he just said "everything looks good" when he obviously didn't bother to check at all.

I know Riley can be difficult. He's a nervous wreck at the vet's, he can be hard to handle and he can get a little snarky, at times. But that's no excuse. If they'd rather not deal with him, they could have told me. There's no excuse for telling me they did an exam when they obviously didn't.
And this new guy, by the way - no problem with Riley at all. They discovered that Riley likes the spray cheese in a can, so they simply bribed him. He was really good for them! And he did everything in front of me - felt him all over, checked his ears, checked his teeth, checked "the boys"... everything.

I wouldn't expect the old place to give me any sort of refund and I don't care about that. I'd just love to give him a piece of my mind right about now! Had you guys not pushed me to have his thyroid checked and I had... gee, I don't know - trusted my vet!... I don't even want to think about what might have happened.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Yeah but if this vet knows about this maybe he would be more inclined to actually check dogs hearts in exams.


That's what I'm thinking. I doubt it'll make any difference. He'll probably dismiss this like he apparently does everything else... but I'd like to bring it to his attention if there's a slight chance that he might be more professional in the future. Maybe it could prevent him from killing somebody's dog.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I would go into the vet's office and physically speak to the vet. Maybe if you say it to him/her in front of the other staff, he might get the message. I would be extremely angry to learn that my vet was basically conning me.

And fwiw, I would never return to a vet that took my dog away from me to perform the check up. I want my dog in front of me so I can see what's going on. Would anyone let a physician take their child into a back room for an examination? I think not!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

The vet just called. The radiologist said the x-rays are perfectly normal. (Okay, so I can breathe a little bit, now.)
The radiologist did recommend that we follow up with a cardiologist, so as the vet said "So that's what we're gonna do." He said he still wants to confirm that it's related to the hypothyroidism and I agree. I don't want to start the thyroid meds, and take any chances, until we're sure.

Thank you again for all the good thoughts, everyone. This boy is my heart and soul, so I sure appreciate the good thoughts and prayers!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> I would go into the vet's office and physically speak to the vet. Maybe if you say it to him/her in front of the other staff, he might get the message. I would be extremely angry to learn that my vet was basically conning me.
> 
> And fwiw, I would never return to a vet that took my dog away from me to perform the check up. I want my dog in front of me so I can see what's going on. Would anyone let a physician take their child into a back room for an examination? I think not!


Oooh, that would not be a good idea right now. It might be the way to go once I calm down a little, but right now, I don't want to see him. 

You'd be surprised how many vets around here take your dog "in the back" to do anything. It's common practice. That's why I didn't think much of it. But I sure like this place better - they do everything right in the exam room, right in front of you. And he said I was welcome to go back with Riley for the x-rays, too. I didn't, because I thought Riley might behave better for them if I _wasn't_ there, but I had the option.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Oooh, that would not be a good idea right now. It might be the way to go once I calm down a little, but right now, I don't want to see him.
> 
> You'd be surprised how many vets around here take your dog "in the back" to do anything. It's common practice. That's why I didn't think much of it. But I sure like this place better - they do everything right in the exam room, right in front of you. And he said I was welcome to go back with Riley for the x-rays, too. I didn't, because I thought Riley might behave better for them if I _wasn't_ there, but I had the option.


Man, I've been to three different vets and they've all checked Flora out in front of me. I think one time my old vet took Flora back to extract urine, but that was understandable. I'm glad you've found a vet you feel more comfortable with! Vets are like doctors - no use going to one that you're not comfortable with.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I've only had one vet (not his regular one) take Toby to the back to draw blood and to do an rectal exam and expression....and that one backfired on her because a cat walked by just as the fluid was released and Toby barked and lunged. :yuck::doh: Everything else is done right in front of me. There is a lot of conversation that goes on during the exams--questions/answers, etc. that help in getting a full picture of the dog's overall health. Taking a dog to the back prevents that exchange. I learn a lot through watching the physical exams. 

If there is any chance you will become upset in front of your former veterinarian I wouldn't do a face to face because you will only be dismissed by this person as an "emotional owner" who obviously doesn't know anything. Why work yourself up for a confrontation and increase your stress level? If you are intent on letting the vet know what's happened, maybe sending an unemotional, well thought out letter would serve its purpose to inform him of what went on and to express disappointment over how he managed Riley. As I get older I realize there are battles worth engaging in and those that are just lost causes and IMO this is one of those I'd lump in the latter category. This veterinarian probably has a high opinion of himself anyway and criticism from a "mere" owner would not be taken well, IMO. He won't change what he's been doing, unless it's a malpractice type of situation that is brought before a state disciplinary committee. People these days don't want to own their mistakes. 

I'm glad the radiologist didn't see anything abnormal! Whew!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> *I've only had one vet (not his regular one) take Toby to the back to draw blood and to do an rectal exam and expression....and that one backfired on her because a cat walked by just as the fluid was released and Toby barked and lunged. :yuck::doh:* Everything else is done right in front of me. There is a lot of conversation that goes on during the exams--questions/answers, etc. that help in getting a full picture of the dog's overall health. Taking a dog to the back prevents that exchange. I learn a lot through watching the physical exams.
> 
> If there is any chance you will become upset in front of your former veterinarian I wouldn't do a face to face because you will only be dismissed by this person as an "emotional owner" who obviously doesn't know anything. Why work yourself up for a confrontation and increase your stress level? If you are intent on letting the vet know what's happened, maybe sending an unemotional, well thought out letter would serve its purpose to inform him of what went on and to express disappointment over how he managed Riley. As I get older I realize there are battles worth engaging in and those that are just lost causes and IMO this is one of those I'd lump in the latter category. This veterinarian probably has a high opinion of himself anyway and criticism from a "mere" owner would not be taken well, IMO. He won't change what he's been doing, unless it's a malpractice type of situation that is brought before a state disciplinary committee. People these days don't want to own their mistakes.
> 
> I'm glad the radiologist didn't see anything abnormal! Whew!


 
LOL. Oh, thank you for that. I needed a good laugh! 

I think you're right. I would get upset. I'm afraid I'd lose my temper the second I set eyes on him and there's no point in that. It won't accomplish anything. A formal letter might be a better way to go. I can simmer down, gather my thoughts and put one together. 

Do you know who I would contact if I wanted to lodge a complaint against this guy? Like I said, I'm not looking for any compensation, but the next time he blows someone off it could cost them their dog. If there's any chance I could help prevent that, it would be worth it.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

ANY procedure I ask for it to be done in front of me. Unless its like a surgery or something. I dont feel the vet needs to take my dog in the back for anything. 

My new vet hasnt listened to his heart but I will have her do so. My old vet did in April of 2010 when he had his ear repaired. So maybe if I am paying for an exam I should request it

Does anyone know that when you take your pet in for lets say an anal gland infection. Should they listen to the dogs heart anyway? I was told that unless your paying for a full physical exam they dont listen to the heart they just address the problem your in for whether it be itchy skin, anal glands, vaccines..

I thought it was odd that my vet never listened to his heart unless it was before a surgery or as a puppy during exams


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> LOL. Oh, thank you for that. I needed a good laugh!
> 
> I think you're right. I would get upset. I'm afraid I'd lose my temper the second I set eyes on him and there's no point in that. It won't accomplish anything. A formal letter might be a better way to go. I can simmer down, gather my thoughts and put one together.
> 
> Do you know who I would contact if I wanted to lodge a complaint against this guy? Like I said, I'm not looking for any compensation, but the next time he blows someone off it could cost them their dog. If there's any chance I could help prevent that, it would be worth it.


Check with your state veterinary licensing board online. They probably have something for "consumers" that will detail what you need to do to file a complaint. You might be disappointed though because they usually reserve discipline for things like drug use, lack of control over the prescription pad, not controlling employees with access to drugs in the office, and DWIs--things like that. Our state has a license verification section where you can confirm a vet's license and it will list all disciplinary actions. Most of them are drug related--usually an employee steals a prescription pad and writes prescriptions for things like tramadol or other drugs. Sometimes they fail to do their continuing education. Every once in a while you have a vet with some malpractice complaints.


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## 3goldens (Nov 7, 2011)

I would think it would be a common practice whenever you take an animal to the vets to listen to their heart. I know mine does as well as weighs them each and every time


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Here is a national website of licensing boards:
Veterinary State Board Web sites

Ohio's is here:
OVMLB

Here is Ohio complaint information: Complaint Information

Apparently they do not have jurisdiction over communication matters, including bedside manner, or business practices.....not exactly sure of all those things encompass, but it leads me to believe your complaint may not be taken seriously by the board.

Here is license verification for Ohio:
https://license.ohio.gov/lookup/default.asp?division=88

I don't know any Ohio veterinarians, but on the page for Texas license verification it will give you a disciplinary history--something I routinely check just to make sure my vets don't have disciplinary actions pending or filed!


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Sending good thoughts Riley's way.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Here is a national website of licensing boards:
> Veterinary State Board Web sites
> Ohio's is here:
> OVMLB
> ...


Thanks for the links!
Ohio must not list disciplinary actions. It shows that he has an active license, but that's it. It doesn't show that he _doesn't_ have any disciplinary actions, so I'm guessing they just don't give the information, one way or the other.

And you're right - if they have no jurisdiction over communication or business practices, a complaint will probably go nowhere. It's a shame, but I can understand it. I mean, they really can't investigate every misdiagnosis and every "he said/she said" situation. It's too bad they can't, though. If they could look into it, they could separate the honest mistakes and miscommunications from the absolute incompetency of vets who shouldn't be practicing. I'll give it a try, anyway, but I don't expect anything to come of it.

But there are the online smart pages, business pages, etc., where consumers can write a review. You can bet I'll be doing that. If I can steer one person away from this guy, it's worth the few minutes of my time.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> ANY procedure I ask for it to be done in front of me. Unless its like a surgery or something. I dont feel the vet needs to take my dog in the back for anything.
> My new vet hasnt listened to his heart but I will have her do so. My old vet did in April of 2010 when he had his ear repaired. So maybe if I am paying for an exam I should request it
> Does anyone know that when you take your pet in for lets say an anal gland infection. Should they listen to the dogs heart anyway? I was told that unless your paying for a full physical exam they dont listen to the heart they just address the problem your in for whether it be itchy skin, anal glands, vaccines..
> I thought it was odd that my vet never listened to his heart unless it was before a surgery or as a puppy during exams


This new place we're going to even lets you stay and watch your pet's surgery, if you want to! They have a nice little waiting area outside the surgery room, separated by a wall of glass, where you can stay and watch. I don't know that I'd have the stomach (or the nerves!) for that, but I love that they give you the option. They'll do absolutely everything right in front of you.

The first time I had a vet take my dog in the back was with my GSD, Alomar. They had to, with him. He was an absolute angel for them as long as I wasn't there. They could do anything to him and he'd sit there, giving them kisses. The minute we were back in the room together, he'd position himself between me and the vet, and would show them every tooth in his head. So that was understandable! I had no problem leaving the room, or letting them take him in the back. The others seemed to do it as a matter of practice, so after my experience with Alomar, I didn't think anything of it. But I sure love the fact that this place _doesn't_ do that! Now, I didn't go back with Riley for his x-rays yesterday. They gave me the option, but I knew they needed him calm and still, and I figured he'd be squirming and trying to hide behind me if I were there, so I didn't go back. 

I've never had a vet listen to a dog's heart unless they were there for a full exam. But I've never had a good vet either, apparently, so I don't know if they're supposed to.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

LifeOfRiley said:


> *This new place we're going to even lets you stay and watch your pet's surgery, if you want to! They have a nice little waiting area outside the surgery room, separated by a wall of glass, where you can stay and watch. I don't know that I'd have the stomach (or the nerves!) for that, but I love that they give you the option. They'll do absolutely everything right in front of you.*


That would be AWESOME. Lol, I'd just troll the vet's office asking to see every dog and cat's surgery. When Carmella had her sternotomy it was at a vet school, and our vet told us that 15 students watched the surgery since it was kind of a rare surgery. I was like... 15 people saw her chest get opened up and I wasn't one of them!?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> That would be AWESOME. Lol, I'd just troll the vet's office asking to see every dog and cat's surgery. When Carmella had her sternotomy it was at a vet school, and our vet told us that 15 students watched the surgery since it was kind of a rare surgery. I was like... 15 people saw her chest get opened up and I wasn't one of them!?


LOL. You must have a much stronger stomach than I do! I don't think I could handle that without losing my lunch. I might be able to if it weren't MY dog, but there's no way I could sit there and watch Riley going through surgery. I'd be a basket case!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I would have the stomach to..but I wouldnt be sure if I would pass out from the blood. I havent been in that situation before so have no idea how my body would react to blood. 

If I wasnt able to watch my dogs surgery I wouldnt allow them to let anyone else veterinary school or not. I chose to allow them to do the surgery the least they can do is let me watch it if they are letting others. 

I would still be on the phone with the previous vet and be like

"Hi, I was curious if there is anything in the vets file about my dogs heart"

"No, its normal"

"really, if that were true the vet would of noted he had a heart arrhythmia that would of been found had he of listened to his heart"

If you go in and say "He has a heart arrhythmia how come thats not in his file"..they would easily say it was no one mentioned it to you. 

I would be pretty upset if I were in your shoes. Is there a reason why some vets dont bother to listen to the heart? One would think that would be standard practice like weights etc


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

For the record, arrythymias can occur suddenly.... When that happens, it can be very serious. They can also have a sinus arrhythmia which is no big deal. As far as heart murmurs, they can seem to appear suddenly as well especially in a breed like a Cav where their heart disease doesn't show up until they are older. In Goldens that have SAS, they are not born with the murmur, it develops. It can show up thru the first year of life. And my Basil(who has an OFA heart clearance) has a physiologic murmur (determined to be such with an echo). Hers can be louder with stress and fear.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

If this cardiologist thinks and the tests prove this issue was going on for some time I would be very peeved at the vet who didnt take 15 seconds to listen to my dogs heart.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> For the record, arrythymias can occur suddenly.... When that happens, it can be very serious. They can also have a sinus arrhythmia which is no big deal. As far as heart murmurs, they can seem to appear suddenly as well especially in a breed like a Cav where their heart disease doesn't show up until they are older. In Goldens that have SAS, they are not born with the murmur, it develops. It can show up thru the first year of life. And my Basil(who has an OFA heart clearance) has a physiologic murmur (determined to be such with an echo). Hers can be louder with stress and fear.


And now I'm freaking out again...
So this could be something really bad?

After the vet listened to it several times, he said that Riley's probably had this for a while. I'm thinking he heard something that made him think that...?? 

And could it be something 'very serious' if he's acting perfectly normal? I'm trying to limit his activity a little bit until we see the cardiologist, and he's not liking it. We just took a nice, easy stroll around the complex this morning - probably close to two miles and I had to stop him from getting the zoomies when we came back in the house. Would he be behaving like that if it's a serious problem?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> If this cardiologist thinks and the tests prove this issue was going on for some time I would be very peeved at the vet who didnt take 15 seconds to listen to my dogs heart.


Yeah, no kidding. "Peeved" doesn't quite cover it. I'd still like to wring his neck right about now.

I picked up all of his records before our appointment with the new vet. Complete with exam notes and everything. (If you could even call them that.) What a joke. There are no "notes" to speak of. He recorded the vaccine and/or titer information and the rest is just a form, basically. It has heart, ears, eyes, etc., listed and he has nothing but check marks next to each one. No notations, no comments, no nothing. 
Our new vet was just shaking his head when he was looking at that.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I've changed vets over the whole "take the dog in the back" issue. I want to see and be able to talk over whatever is done. If I were you, I'd go through the whole diagnostic process and get the results. If it turns out the arrhythmia is thyroid related I would DEFINITELY talk to the former vet and let him know. It may change his casual manner of dismissing thyroid testing, and spare another owner having an undiagnosed dog and the issues it can spawn. SO SO glad you've changed vets.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I've changed vets over the whole "take the dog in the back" issue. I want to see and be able to talk over whatever is done. If I were you, I'd go through the whole diagnostic process and get the results. If it turns out the arrhythmia is thyroid related I would DEFINITELY talk to the former vet and let him know. It may change his casual manner of dismissing thyroid testing, and spare another owner having an undiagnosed dog and the issues it can spawn. SO SO glad you've changed vets.


It'll be brought to his attention. Like you said, I want to have all the answers first, though.
We've only seen the new guy once and already, I like him. He doesn't pull any punches. He told me, 'these are the tests we're going to run, this is what it's going to cost, so budget accordingly.' He doesn't seem to tiptoe or sugarcoat. I like that.

I'm trying to keep busy until we get in to see the cardiologist, so I don't drive myself crazy, but it's not working.
I'd been talking to a very knowledgeable, trusted friend about this and she's willing to bet that it's thyroid related. Based on that and the fact that the vet didn't seem to think it was an _urgent_ matter (no harm in waiting until the week of the 5th to see the cardiologist, etc.) I was feeling a LOT better. After reading what Sally's Mom said, now I'm pretty much scared to death again.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> For the record, arrythymias can occur suddenly.... When that happens, it can be very serious. They can also have a sinus arrhythmia which is no big deal. As far as heart murmurs, they can seem to appear suddenly as well especially in a breed like a Cav where their heart disease doesn't show up until they are older. In Goldens that have SAS, they are not born with the murmur, it develops. It can show up thru the first year of life. And my Basil(who has an OFA heart clearance) has a physiologic murmur (determined to be such with an echo). Hers can be louder with stress and fear.


Sally's Mom, how common is it for hypothyroidism to cause some of these heart issues and do they reverse/resolve once the hormone levels are balanced? Also, is there anything Deni should be on the watch for before the Dec 5 cardiologist appointment--warning signs that means he needs to get to an ER or to his regular vet asap?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, since you used Dr. Dodds, I think you could probably email or call her and ask her about the thyroid causing the arrythmia--her input might be enough to calm your fears until he can be seen by the cardiologist. That idea just came to me this morning. 

I'm going to peruse her book and see if I can find anything about it, will let you know if I find anything. And....edit: It's there as a thyroid related complication on page 14 of her book.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

A serious arrythymia could cause things like syncopal (fainting episodes). People get arrythymias that are caused by things like caffeine that aren't serious, but are managed by not drinking caffeine. If you are not seeing weakness, I would sit tight until you see the cardiologist. An under active thyroid can do all kinds of things to all parts of the body and definitely can cause secondary effects on the heart.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Sending good thoughts your way! Glad you got a new vet who's getting Riley checked out thoroughly...I've never had a vet do an exam without the owner present, it seems odd that they would and especially that they never used a stethoscope! What were they thinking?!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> A serious arrythymia could cause things like syncopal (fainting episodes). People get arrythymias that are caused by things like caffeine that aren't serious, but are managed by not drinking caffeine. If you are not seeing weakness, I would sit tight until you see the cardiologist. An under active thyroid can do all kinds of things to all parts of the body and definitely can cause secondary effects on the heart.


Thank you! That does make me feel better. 
He's definitely not showing any signs of weakness. He's not showing any signs of _anything_. His energy level is good and perfectly normal for him. (In fact, he's not real happy with me right now, since I'm trying to limit him and not let him get too wound up until we see the cardiologist.) His appetite is fine. He's certainly not acting like there's anything wrong, or he doesn't feel well.
When the vet listened to his heart, he said it's making a lub-dub-_dub_ sound. I don't know if that tells you anything...?? And he must have heard something that made him think it's been there for a while. I mean, I think that would seem like an odd thing to say without a reason...? 



Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, since you used Dr. Dodds, I think you could probably email or call her and ask her about the thyroid causing the arrythmia--her input might be enough to calm your fears until he can be seen by the cardiologist. That idea just came to me this morning.
> 
> I'm going to peruse her book and see if I can find anything about it, will let you know if I find anything. And....edit: It's there as a thyroid related complication on page 14 of her book.


Oh, thanks! That's a good idea! I'll check that out, and maybe try to get ahold of her.



Ranger said:


> Sending good thoughts your way! Glad you got a new vet who's getting Riley checked out thoroughly...I've never had a vet do an exam without the owner present, it seems odd that they would and especially that they never used a stethoscope! What were they thinking?!


Thanks! 
I can't imagine what these people were thinking. It seems, to me, like the previous place is what I call "jiffy lube vets." One that's basically little more than a drive-thru vaccine clinic. They certainly aren't thorough, at all. And to think they're AAHA accredited! 
I'm going to wait until I have all the answers and if it turns out that this previous vet did, in fact, just miss this because he blew me off and didn't bother to examine Riley like he should have, I'll be reporting him to anyone who will listen and leaving reviews to warn other potential patients.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Interesting, I went online to check out AAHA standards (https://www.aahanet.org/Default.aspx and you need to log in...I'm on my way to Toby's AAHA veterinary hospital now but if I get a chance I want to check and see if there is anything in there about what should be included in a veterinary exam.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I was looking around the AAHA website and decided not to create an account but see if they had some other things out there that might help a pet owner to determine if a veterinarian was giving their pet a thorough exam. 

I copied this first, as it describes AAHA and accreditation. I think I got it off a Healthy pets.net website, but didn't copy the link (oops). Here is what I cut and pasted out of what I read:

_Practices are evaluated against a pool of more than 900 standards that represent best practices in veterinary care and hospital management. A national taskforce of veterinary professionals created and continually updates the standards to reflect the latest developments and improvements in patient care, surgery, medical records, cleanliness, staff safety, leadership, and a host of other areas essential to excellent patient care.
After applying to become accredited, a veterinary practice usually spends several weeks or months examining and fine-tuning its systems, processes, and protocols (procedures) to be sure every aspect meets AAHA’s standards of quality.
Often the whole practice team becomes involved, which builds collaboration across the entire clinic — an important factor in quality pet care.
When the practice is ready, AAHA sends consultants — trained professionals with veterinary backgrounds — to conduct an on-site evaluation.
Practices are awarded points for each standard they meet, and they must amass a certain score in order to pass the evaluation. Accreditation is by no means guaranteed, and practices that pass evaluations often host parties for staff and clients to celebrate achieving the milestone.
To maintain accredited status, clinics must be re-evaluated every three years. This ensures that every AAHA-accredited practice represents the most current thinking about what constitutes the best health and medical care for pets.
Pet owners can feel reassured about the care their pets receive at AAHA-accredited hospitals. There is a saying among business leaders: Good management is doing things right. Leadership is doing the right things. Accreditation assures you that your veterinarian does both.
The AAHA Standards of Accreditation include more than 900 individual standards, divided into 19 major sections including patient care.
_

I then went into the AAHA website and found the following articles that may be of interest. I'm particularly interested in the one for seniors, first, because Toby is approaching seniorhood in January, but also from the perspective of taking what vets do for senior dogs and applying it to every veterinary exam--makes sense, right? The veterinary team we use does this for all our dogs, no matter the age, and they are AAHA accredited. We're blessed!

View attachment SeniorCareGuidelines (1).pdf

View attachment Print - https___www.aahanet.org_PublicDocuments_CaninePreventiveGuidelines_PPPH.pdf


Deni, I wonder if there is any possibility of a pet owner contacting AAHA and complaining about the lack of standards at an AAHA accredited hospital....I didn't find an answer, but that could be something for you to think about doing.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Wow - thanks, Anne! 

It sure doesn't seem like that place comes anywhere NEAR the standards/guidelines they list for an examination. 

Once I have all the answers, I'll see if I can contact AAHA and let them know exactly what goes on (and what doesn't) at that place. It would be difficult to prove since they take the dog in the back, so you don't see anything and don't know what they're doing or not doing, but I'll give it a try. I have his so-called "exam notes" to back me up and they're a joke. There are no "notes" to speak of, at all, so they might be interested in seeing that.
The only thing he noted after our last visit was that we were putting Riley on a diet. That's it! No mention of my thyroid concerns, no mention of his thinning coat... nothing. 
That, alone, shows some pretty poor practices IMO. But I'll wait and see what we find out, so I have ALL the answers and then I'll try to contact them.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Keep us posted after you see the cardiologist. We are AAHA accredited... they do examine records when they visit. Plus there are a lot of "hoops" you have to jump trhough.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

My KayCee had an enlarged heart chamber that was caught when she was about 5 I think. Nothing was detected by sound, but i had chest x-ray done and it was there. My vet put her on a baby asprin every other day and very low dosage of the same blood pressure med hubby takes----1/4 the strength of his. 

She never had any problems with her heart, and I lost her to cancer a few years later. I get Honey's chest done every year since she had heartworms when we adopted her in Dec. 02, but Rickey said her heart, lungs, etc are perfect--could be used to show what a dog's chest should look like.

Also, full blood panels before any surgery, dental, and yearly physical. Buck showed not a single symptom of thyroid trouble. not a one. Had a full panel done before dental and it shoowed very low thyroid. I swear by full blood panels and chest x-rays.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, just wanted to mention that I went through some of my dogs' medical notes done by his regular veterinarian and they are succinct but detailed in what they checked. It's simplified somewhat where they can note that a condition or body part is unchanged from the last visit, but tests and other major items discussed are mentioned. It looks like it may be created from some sort of standard note template, but customized to this clinic. I thought you might want to know that--and I wouldn't be afraid to ask your new vet to supply you with copies of the notes and lab work. I got some of the free cloud space at Amazon.com and scan Toby's medical and lab records into my computer and the "cloud". I've actually used some of the records in the cloud at his ophthalmology visit when the doc asked a question about something--very handy!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Well, we're all set with the cardiologist. Friday morning - 10:00am.
My nerves are shot. I hate the waiting and not knowing, but I'm still dreading the appointment. I'm just so afraid that it could be something really bad.




Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, just wanted to mention that I went through some of my dogs' medical notes done by his regular veterinarian and they are succinct but detailed in what they checked. It's simplified somewhat where they can note that a condition or body part is unchanged from the last visit, but tests and other major items discussed are mentioned. It looks like it may be created from some sort of standard note template, but customized to this clinic. I thought you might want to know that--and I wouldn't be afraid to ask your new vet to supply you with copies of the notes and lab work. I got some of the free cloud space at Amazon.com and scan Toby's medical and lab records into my computer and the "cloud". I've actually used some of the records in the cloud at his ophthalmology visit when the doc asked a question about something--very handy!


That's a good idea. I know this new guy must take pretty detailed notes -- it looked like he was writing a book before and after the exam. I wasn't used to seeing that. He asked a lot of questions that the old guy never bothered to ask, too.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*LifeofRiley*

LifeofRiley

I will be praying for Riley and you. Thank God you found a new vet.


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## tahill (Jul 19, 2011)

I think you should take your findings and show them to your old vet. This is a disgrace. This is the type of thing that probably could have been prevented if he just listened to the heart beat. Hopefully by showing your old vet these findings he might take better care of his examinations.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

tahill said:


> I think you should take your findings and show them to your old vet. This is a disgrace. This is the type of thing that probably could have been prevented if he just listened to the heart beat. Hopefully by showing your old vet these findings he might take better care of his examinations.


Well, I don't know that it could have been prevented. We don't even know what "it" is, yet. But I'm thinking that it should have been caught back in October. If that does turn out to be the case, he'll hear about it. 

Only 21 hours until his appointment now. With any luck, I might be sleeping for about 4 of those, so that leaves me with 17 hours ...
Can ya tell I'm nervous?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Good luck tomorrow. I hope you find out that it's nothing. If it turns out to be something, I hope he/she has a good treatment plan in place for Riley so that it's manageable.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Good luck tomorrow. I'll be watching for an update.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

It's not good.
He has a ventricular arrhythmia. We still don't know what's causing it. They want to have the thyroid panel done again by MSU. (The vet said he has a lot more faith in them than in Dr. Dodds.) So we should have the results back from that next week and then we go back for an abdominal ultrasound and x-rays. He didn't want to do that today. He said that Riley had been through enough for one day and he wants to give him a mild sedative for those, besides. Depending on those results, we should be able to decide if we're going to try a harness monitor, so they can get a real good, longer-term look at the arrhythmia and/or start him on the thyroid meds and/or beta blockers.
The cardiologist said to limit his activity until we know more. And she said that sudden death is always a possibility with these arrhythmias.

So we're pretty much scared to death right now. I don't know exactly HOW bad this is - they weren't saying much in terms of that. I understand that they don't want to speculate until they have all the test results, but I wish I knew exactly what we're looking at, here.

Mom's talking to the sales guy at work. He and his wife adopt Newfies with heart problems, so he's more than likely dealt with this and might be able to tell us something.
The results from the echo are Greek to me.

So, we still have more questions than answers, it seems.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

So the ventricular arrythmia can't be related a thyroid problem? Or can it?

What is the abdominal ultrasound for?

I'm sorry to read this about Riley, this must be a scary time for you. In my experience, vets (and doctors) tend to state the worst case scenario which inevitably scares the crap out of us. But I know there are so many dogs on this forum with heart problems and they lead healthy happy lives - just like people. Hang in there and keep us updated.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I really hope it's all tied into the thyroid. Good thoughts being sent!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> So the ventricular arrythmia can't be related a thyroid problem? Or can it?
> 
> What is the abdominal ultrasound for?
> 
> I'm sorry to read this about Riley, this must be a scary time for you. In my experience, vets (and doctors) tend to state the worst case scenario which inevitably scares the crap out of us. But I know there are so many dogs on this forum with heart problems and they lead healthy happy lives - just like people. Hang in there and keep us updated.


She said it _could_ be related to the thyroid, but that they see more heart-related issues with hyperthyroid than hypothyroid, so I got the feeling that she didn't think it was too likely.
They want to do the abdominal ultrasound to see if there's anything in there, like a tumor (bad enough all by itself) that could be causing it.

I wish I knew if they were just giving me worst-case possibilities! He asked how we are with all of this and, of course, we said "scared" and told him it's not what we had wanted to hear. He said "It's not all that bad." and told us that we're doing all the right things, we're taking care of it, etc. But then he said, again, that sudden death is always a risk. So, it's either not all that bad, or he's at risk for sudden death. Flip a coin, I guess. 
I understand what he's doing, though. I mean, he's trying not to say TOO much until we have more test results. I get that. And at the same time, he's trying to keep me from going to pieces while making sure I understand the risks so I'm not blindsided if the worst would happen. It's a fine line they walk. I don't envy them.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Glad you saw a new vet and were able to catch this to get testing done!! How scary. Shame on the old vet... that's inexcusable. 

Our vet (well, the assistant, actually) takes the dogs in the back to weigh them and take their temperature, then brings them back to me and we wait in the exam room for the vet and she gives them a very thorough check up, feel-over right there with me. I don't mind them taking my dog in the back for the 2 minutes to weigh them on the scale, but I would certainly mind if they did the entire exam back there without me!


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I'm just so sorry to read this. I had hoped it would be a better result. The not knowing for sure would drive me crazy...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, I'm so sorry to hear this news. I hope the MSU panel will show a little more (my vet is the same way about Dr. Dodds and only uses MSU). If it is thyroid related, do you remember if he said it could resolve once medication is started? 

When are the next abdominal ultrasound scheduled? I hope it is early next week, just to ease your mind so you know exactly what is going on. Yes, it is scary to think there could be a tumor, but for now try to focus on Riley and worry in the shower, in bed and try (I know it's sooo hard) to stay positive around him because he will pick up your fears. Keeping him calm and not anxious or stressed is probably the best thing you can do for him, along with limiting activity. 

*You are doing all the right things*. 

FYI, Toby is hypothyroid and has mitral valve regurgitation--it was scary as heck to hear something is wrong with his heart. I'm not familiar with Riley's diagnosis, but I bet if you typed out what your report from the echocardiogram said one of the vets here might give you a good interpretation of what it means. See if you can get them to email or fax a copy if they didn't give you one at your appointment. 

And start that letter of complaint about your former vet...sheesh!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Yeah, the not knowing is driving me crazy. I don't know if this is going to be treatable or if I should expect him to just fall over at any time. Exactly how you're supposed to deal with it, I don't know.




missmarstar said:


> Glad you saw a new vet and were able to catch this to get testing done!! How scary. Shame on the old vet... that's inexcusable.


That SOB is going to get an earful from me. And I'll make it my own personal mission to make sure that people are aware of what he doesn't bother to do when examining a dog. The cardiologist said that, in her opinion, it _should_ have been detectable in October, so it looks like he just flat-out didn't bother to listen.
Right now, my only concern is Riley. But if that vet thinks I'm done with him, he's sorely mistaken.


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## Hali's Mom (Oct 5, 2006)

I have no experience with heart issues but plenty with the thyroid. I used MSU first then Dr. Dodd as the MSU results were not as extensive. Two different vets read the MSU results which were low normal and felt that no action was required. Not completely satisfied with that answer I had blood drawn and sent to Hemopet (Dr. Dodd). Her findings were close to what MSU found but being that this is their (Hemopet's) field of expertise vs. various veterinary fields like MSU, she recommended I believe it was .6 soloxin (sp) for Hali's condition. Hali was 65#.
Dr. Dodd said that a low normal in a golden requires treatment while in another breed it might not. I have had various emails with her and she is very nice and willing to help. You probably should contact her just to help put your mind at ease. If there have been cases brought to her attention like Riley's she will be able to clarify things for you. She is more likely to know about thyroid related heart issues as that is her concentration.
Hope you get some satisfaction soon and don't worry yourself to death. Wishing the best for you and Riley.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, I'm so sorry to hear this news. I hope the MSU panel will show a little more (my vet is the same way about Dr. Dodds and only uses MSU). If it is thyroid related, do you remember if he said it could resolve once medication is started?
> 
> When are the next abdominal ultrasound scheduled? I hope it is early next week, just to ease your mind so you know exactly what is going on. Yes, it is scary to think there could be a tumor, but for now try to focus on Riley and worry in the shower, in bed and try (I know it's sooo hard) to stay positive around him because he will pick up your fears. Keeping him calm and not anxious or stressed is probably the best thing you can do for him, along with limiting activity.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the cardiologist did say that IF it's thyroid-related, the medication should resolve the issue. But I got the impression that she doesn't think it's thyroid-related.

Not sure yet when the ultrasound will be scheduled. He said they should have the thyroid panel back by Tuesday - they're overnighting it for us. Once he gets that, he's going to call and set up the ultrasound and more x-rays. And actually, the cardiologist and the vet, both, didn't seem to be too concerned about there being an abdominal tumor. They both said, 'we go in, we remove it and it solves the problem.' And the cardio did say that his heart is just fine for any kind of surgery, so that won't be a complicating factor.

I know. I'm trying not to stay calm and upbeat around Riley. He SO picks up on and feeds off of my emotions, so I don't want to upset him. But you're right - it's not easy! I held it together while we were at the vet's, but it hit me when we got home. Poor boy doesn't understand why mama's crying. It's not something mama does very often.

That's a good idea. I do have the report right here. I don't know if anyone can or would be willing to interpret it for me. I really just want to know HOW bad this is, and I don't know if the results would show that.
But it reads:

Consultation-Initial mobile - Pulse 80BPM / Respiration: pant/ Eyes: bright/ Mucous membranes: muzzled / Jugular Veins: normal / Heart: soft murmur after premature beats, arrhythmic with periods of trigeminy / Lungs: normal /no abnormalities / Abdomen: tense on palpation / Pulse Quality: decreased with deficits / Dermatologic: normal / Lymph nodes: normal / Body condition: trim/2.25 / 5 BCS / Musculoskeletal System: Normal / Ambulation: normal

Echocardiogram Level 1 M - ; Sinus rhythm with frequent VPCs.;; due to demeanor - standing echocardiogram;; Normal cardiac function. Normal structure. Mild increase in echogenicity in the papillary muscles. Normal LA/Ao. Normal aortic flow. Normal right heart. Due to demeanor of pet the right auricle was not completely imaged.

Total Greek to me.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

It's Greek to me too. I hope someone who understands it will interpret or at least put it in "owners English".

Is Riley 4? 

I hope your vet will agree to at least try a test dosing period of thyroid supplementation to see if it helps the heart murmur. 

I'm just so sorry about this news.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

I'm sorry the news wasn't better. I'm so keeping you and Riley in the thoughts.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> It's Greek to me too. I hope someone who understands it will interpret or at least put it in "owners English".
> 
> Is Riley 4?
> 
> ...


 
I hope they can, too. I'd feel better knowing how worried I should be. I'm already expecting the worst, so it could only get better from here. 

He's 4 years and almost 5 months, now.

It'll be interesting to see what he says after they get the thyroid panel back from MSU. I just hope the results aren't completely different from the panel we had done by Dr. Dodds!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> I hope they can, too. I'd feel better knowing how worried I should be. I'm already expecting the worst, so it could only get better from here.
> 
> He's 4 years and almost 5 months, now.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see what he says after they get the thyroid panel back from MSU. I just hope the results aren't completely different from the panel we had done by Dr. Dodds!


What you don't need right now is a disagreement in results between Dr. Dodds and MSU. Fingers crossed that does not happen. 

I don't know if you noticed but the report noted Riley as "trim".


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> What you don't need right now is a disagreement in results between Dr. Dodds and MSU. Fingers crossed that does not happen.
> 
> I don't know if you noticed but the report noted Riley as "trim".


Heh - I did notice that.  I sort of wondered if we were looking at the same dog, 'cause he's still a little bit of a chubbins IMO. I mean - granted, he's a big boy... but he weighs 87lbs! 

I did email Dr. Dodds about the hypothyroid/heart complication issue and she responded within half an hour. (I was shocked.) She said that yes, she's seen this type of cardiac issue in dogs with hypothyroidism. She also said that it's been shown to be perfectly safe to start treating the thyroid disease, at this point. Ugghh! 
So she says one thing and the cardiologist and the vet are saying we need another thyroid panel and more tests before we even think about thyroid meds. I think I may just pull my hair out before we get any actual answers. And in the meantime, Riley's not being treated for any of it, when maybe he could/should be...???


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

In humans, ventricular arrhythmias are often controlled with medication.... more severe are treated with pacemakers or sometimes with implanted defibrillators ( like Dick Chaney). Having a son who is a fellow in pediatric cardiology ( with a subspecialty in imaging), he sees and treats this very often. Hopefully, some of this translates to the veterinary world too. Have faith that Riley will be on the road to a long stable life with the right medication and monitoring. Many prayers coming his way.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> In humans, ventricular arrhythmias are often controlled with medication.... more severe are treated with pacemakers or sometimes with implanted defibrillators ( like Dick Chaney). Having a son who is a fellow in pediatric cardiology ( with a subspecialty in imaging), he sees and treats this very often. Hopefully, some of this translates to the veterinary world too. Have faith that Riley will be on the road to a long stable life with the right medication and monitoring. Many prayers coming his way.


Thanks, Betty. I'm trying to think the good thoughts, for now. Not much else to do, at this point...!  
A guy I used to know has a ventricular arrhythmia. It never caused him any problems, and he was an athlete! He just took his beta blockers and was fine. I have no idea how much translates to the canine world, but if we have any luck at all, enough of it will!

And what the heck - if he needs a defibrillator, and it's a viable option, he'll get one. He could be the Dick Cheney of the dog world. (He has the temperament for that title! LOL.)


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just got back from a walk with Lucky Penny and my grand dog Luna and her BFF, Penny, and my Tiki and Mantha...otherwise I would have written sooner. Very basically, you know there are four chambers in the heart: left and right ventricles and right and left atria. In easy to understand language, when all is working well, the atria contract and fill the ventricles. When you have PVC's, the ventricles initiate contraction independent of anything else (the sino atrial node normally initiates everything ). So it becomes inefficient and circulation is not good. In a normal heart, when you hear the heartbeat, it should coincide with feeling the femoral pulse(inside the thigh). When you have an arrythymia they are not synchronized. Trigeminy is when there are two normal beats followed by a PVC(premature ventricular contraction). The cardiologist also heard a heart murmur, but said it was soft which means not very loud. Often the louder the murmur, the more significant it is.

We use MSU for thyroids.... It is the Gold Standard... I put my Sally on thyroid meds when she was borderline.

Hope this helps.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Aw, sorry to hear...hopefully you get some answers to your questions and concerns. Sending good thoughts to you and Riley.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Just got back from a walk with Lucky Penny and my grand dog Luna and her BFF, Penny, and my Tiki and Mantha...otherwise I would have written sooner. Very basically, you know there are four chambers in the heart: left and right ventricles and right and left atria. In easy to understand language, when all is working well, the atria contract and fill the ventricles. When you have PVC's, the ventricles initiate contraction independent of anything else (the sino atrial node normally initiates everything ). So it becomes inefficient and circulation is not good. In a normal heart, when you hear the heartbeat, it should coincide with feeling the femoral pulse(inside the thigh). When you have an arrythymia they are not synchronized. Trigeminy is when there are two normal beats followed by a PVC(premature ventricular contraction). The cardiologist also heard a heart murmur, but said it was soft which means not very loud. Often the louder the murmur, the more significant it is.
> 
> We use MSU for thyroids.... It is the Gold Standard... I put my Sally on thyroid meds when she was borderline.
> 
> Hope this helps.


It certainly helps me to understand what's going on in there! Thank you so much!
Is that enough information for you to take a guess as to how serious it is... if it should be treatable... etc.? Or is it just really too hard to tell without a lot more information?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am not a cardiologist, they would have the best answer for prognosis. But as I pm'ed you, everything has to be examined to find an underlying cause.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If you have ever had a palpitation, that is a PVC... Caffeine causes them in my sister, so she avoids caffeine. I'm sure many of us take beta blockers for the same reason...


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I am not a cardiologist, they would have the best answer for prognosis. But as I pm'ed you, everything has to be examined to find an underlying cause.


Just read it. Thank you, again!
We'll just try to relax and hope for the best while we do the 'wait and see' thing.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, Toby is on a blood pressure med that is a channel beta blocker. It's called Amlodipine Besylate (5 MG). It may be that Riley is put on something like this for his heart issues. He really hasn't had any side effects from it, except it lowered his blood pressure like it is supposed to do. Ours is $6 a month, very reasonable (we pick it up at a human pharmacy).


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, Toby is on a blood pressure med that is a channel beta blocker. It's called Amlodipine Besylate (5 MG). It may be that Riley is put on something like this for his heart issues. He really hasn't had any side effects from it, except it lowered his blood pressure like it is supposed to do. Ours is $6 a month, very reasonable (we pick it up at a human pharmacy).


Hm. I wonder. Neither the vet nor the cardiologist mentioned anything about his blood pressure. I'm assuming that they checked it. I mean, you'd _think_ they would have, right...?

I don't know. Mom and I have been thinking about this all weekend, and the more we think about it, the more frustrated we're getting.

I don't understand why he's having another thyroid panel done. We have the results from Dr. Dodds. It's low. It's low enough to be causing him problems (terribly thin coat, weight gain, etc.) If it's low enough to cause him problems, it's low enough to treat. Why he wants another panel is beyond me, unless he already has it in his head that he disagrees with her and he's hoping that MSU will back him up...??

There's also the fact that Dr. Dodds is saying his hypothyroidism could very well be causing this arrhythmia, but this cardiologist seemed to blow that off, saying that generally only hypERthyroid will cause arrhythmias. (I did a little checking on the cardiologist and she is board certified, but she hasn't been practicing very long. Still wet behind the ears, IMO.)
So there's a pretty big difference in opinion, there.

The biggest question mom and I kept going back to over the weekend is this -- if there's something other than hypothyroidism going on here, don't you think there would be other signs or symptoms? I mean, if something is bad enough to be causing an arrhythmia, wouldn't it be causing other problems by now, as well? Loss of appetite, lethargy, etc...? We're seeing NONE of that. His appetite is very healthy (as usual) and he's just bursting at the seams with energy since I've been keeping him limited. The only symptoms he's showing are the symptoms of hypothyroidism.

And now this morning, mom called the vet's office, thinking we'd go ahead and schedule that ultrasound now, so she can put in notice at work and take the whole day off. They already said that they'll have the results back from MSU no later than Wednesday, so we didn't see a huge problem with scheduling our appointment for some day after that. Well, apparently it's a problem. He told her that he'll call us after the results are back from MSU and we can schedule the appointment then. WTH? 

Another issue I don't like is that he had mentioned giving him acepromazine for the ultrasound. I'm not comfortable with that, as I've heard too many bad things about it.

I don't know. Is it time for another opinion? Another pair of eyes on this?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I don't understand the double thyroid panel either, except for the fact that many vets across the nation (not all) do not want to work or deal with Dr. Dodds and prefer MSU. I suspect that is the case with your vet. 

I don't understand the unwillingness to schedule the ultrasound, especially since you want it no matter what the thyroid test panel reveals. Maybe the scheduler did not understand it's something that isn't dependent on those results? 

As far as sedating during the ultrasound, that really should not be necessary and my uneducated guess is it might be counter-productive during a heart exam (totally uneducated guess). Somewhere in the back of my mind I thought my vet mentioned they prefer the dog to be awake during the echocardiograms. Over the years we've gone to several ultrasound appointments with a number of different veterinarians and none of them required sedation, except for one internist. I was pre-warned by our regular vet that her bedside manner was rude at best, and she was most definitely that! I begged her not to sedate my dog and she just blew me off, except the nurse heard me and didn't sedate him for the radiographs or the ultrasound. That vet performed the ultrasound and never knew the dog was awake! She was shocked when she told the nurse to wake him up and the nurse said he was awake. The internist actually came out when I picked him up and apologized to me and said he was the most mellow dog she'd seen in a long time (he was). 

My philosophy is if I'm feeling uncomfortable about anything, I try to get another expert opinion. It might be my regular vet if I'm dealing with a specialist, or it may be asking for a referral if I'm just not sure. Trust your instincts and if you feel another set of eyes is good, I'd do it.

oh, and the blood pressure medication--I don't know if they are used for other than regulating blood pressures.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Mostly with ultrasound, pets are not sedated... however, isn't Riley a tad nervous? I thought I saw on his report that they couldn't look at his mucus membranes because he was muzzled and they could not see his right auricle due to temperment.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Mostly with ultrasound, pets are not sedated... however, isn't Riley a tad nervous? I thought I saw on his report that they couldn't look at his mucus membranes because he was muzzled and they could not see his right auricle due to temperment.


Oh, he's more than a tad nervous at the vet's - he's really pretty scared.
Honestly, the only time he needs to be muzzled is for nail trims. I suggest a muzzle to play it safe, but we'd more than likely be able to do anything but nails without one. He wiggles a little and wants to get away, but he doesn't get aggressive - no growling, no quick head turns, nothing like that.
And no, she couldn't get a good look at the auricle. He'd just had enough, by that time. We'd been in the room for nearly half an hour by that time and they had me blowing up his nose to keep him from panting. After so much of that, he'd had enough and didn't want to stand still anymore. And I can't blame him. (I don't even think he would have been panting if it hadn't been like, 80 degrees in that place. I was about ready to start panting, myself!)

They did the x-rays without sedating him and got real good, clear pictures. And they said he was actually very good for them - a little wiggly at first, but he calmed down quickly. So I don't understand why they're talking about sedation for the ultrasound. 
And I really don't like the idea of using ace. I was just doing some googling and found out that ace should *never* be used on Boxers because it frequently causes arrhythmias. Granted, Riley isn't a Boxer, but if it shouldn't be used in dogs at risk for heart problems, does it make sense to use it on a dog who already HAS an arrhythmia?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

If it were an abdominal ultrasound chances are he'd get very relaxed--because the cushioned V shaped table they put the dog into for it is relaxing. Toby sleeps through those. He's OK for the echo, but he's awake there because he's on a table with tiny little legs and a big hole to stick the probe into. The technician told me most dogs get slightly to moderately nervous when they do the audible heart beat segments because it's noisy--but Toby's heart rate didn't even fluctuate during that part.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> I don't understand the double thyroid panel either, except for the fact that many vets across the nation (not all) do not want to work or deal with Dr. Dodds and prefer MSU. I suspect that is the case with your vet.
> 
> I don't understand the unwillingness to schedule the ultrasound, especially since you want it no matter what the thyroid test panel reveals. Maybe the scheduler did not understand it's something that isn't dependent on those results?
> 
> ...


 
I wonder why they have a negative opinion of Dr. Dodds. I don't understand that. 

I don't get the scheduling thing, either. Mom talked to the vet, himself, and he didn't want to schedule the appointment until after he gets the results from the thyroid panel. The way he was talking Friday, I got the impression that we were going to do the ultrasound no matter what the panel shows... so I just don't get this guy.

I don't see where it would be necessary to sedate him for the ultrasound, either. They didn't sedate him for the x-rays (and didn't NEED to) so why sedate for the ultrasound? And to use ace? Ugh.

But yeah, I'm not feeling very comfortable with any of this. We're getting another opinion. We have an appointment at Northview Saturday morning. There's a chance that this guy will say the same thing and suggest the same tests, and if he does - fine. That's what we'll do. But I have too many questions and too much doubt NOT to get another opinion.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> If it were an abdominal ultrasound chances are he'd get very relaxed--because the cushioned V shaped table they put the dog into for it is relaxing. Toby sleeps through those. He's OK for the echo, but he's awake there because he's on a table with tiny little legs and a big hole to stick the probe into. The technician told me most dogs get slightly to moderately nervous when they do the audible heart beat segments because it's noisy--but Toby's heart rate didn't even fluctuate during that part.


Oh, that's funny. Toby must be one mellow guy...!
Although, Riley didn't seem too bothered by that, either. He just sort of tipped his head and looked at it like, "What's that?"


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Well, I'm feeling pretty good about this second opinion we're getting on Saturday.

Mom was talking to the sales guy at work - the one who adopts Newfies with heart problems. (He has six of them, at the moment.) He told mom that it sounds like we should definitely get another opinion and asked her if she wanted a suggestion. Mom told him that we already had an appointment scheduled at Northview and he said "That's where I was going to send you." He's been going there for _years_ and says they're wonderful. The best around here.
He's on a first-name basis with most of the vets there, and said the guy we're seeing is really good. He also said that the guy we're seeing is best buddies with the cardiologist on staff there, and the cardiologist's father has bred Goldens for years! 

So we're feeling pretty good about it. They may very well say the same thing, need the same tests, etc., and that's okay. At least I feel like they're a little more qualified. We know John and if these people weren't the best in the area, his Newfies wouldn't be going there.

So now it's just more wait and see... :bowl:


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, I think you got your sign you are on the right track. Please post as soon as you can after your visit on Saturday. I hope you get definitive answers.

BTW, if you haven't already, I'd get copies of the vet notes, labs and reports that the 2nd vet did last week and this week. Make a copy for your new guy too. It might be helpful.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, I think you got your sign you are on the right track. Please post as soon as you can after your visit on Saturday. I hope you get definitive answers.
> 
> BTW, if you haven't already, I'd get copies of the vet notes, labs and reports that the 2nd vet did last week and this week. Make a copy for your new guy too. It might be helpful.


It sure _seems_ like a good sign, doesn't it? Like you've said, at least I know we're doing absolutely everything we possibly can to make sure that he's in good hands and make sure we get an accurate diagnosis and the best treatment. That puts my mind at ease. I mean, obviously I'm still worried about him, but I can deal with whatever they tell us, as long as I don't have any doubts, 'what ifs' or 'shoulda, woulda, couldas'. Those are the things that drive me crazy.

We have everything but the x-rays. I think I'll see if mom can pick those up on her way home some night this week. The vet and the radiologist both said they were "normal", but I imagine the guy at Northview might want to see for himself.

Our appointment is set for 8:30 in the morning. I'm really glad it's so early, because I know I'll be anxious to get in there. I'll post at least a quick update as soon as I can. I'm really not expecting many definitive answers. It would be great if we could get them, but I'm going into it with the idea that this guy will want more tests, too.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Sounds like a great plan to me. Hope you get some answers.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Tell us how it goes... because we care!!!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

It may be if you bring in all the other lab test results and radiograph/ultrasound reports the new vet won't need to order duplicate tests, saving you a little money. 

I know what you mean about the what ifs, should haves, second thoughts. Sometimes persistence pays off!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> It may be if you bring in all the other lab test results and radiograph/ultrasound reports the new vet won't need to order duplicate tests, saving you a little money.


That would be nice. I would certainly understand if this place wants to do their own tests, even if they're duplicates, but it would be nice if they say it isn't necessary. It would be less stuff that Riley has to go through, too.

Mom's picking up the x-rays tonight. And if the thyroid results come back from MSU before Saturday morning, we'll grab those, too. They were supposed to be back no later than Tuesday. As of this morning, they're still not in.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Tell us how it goes... because we care!!!


I will. And thank you. 
I'll post at least a quick update when we get back Saturday.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

It just gets better and better...

The vet just called. Apparently, he called MSU to see what's taking so long with the thyroid panel. They told him that they wouldn't have the results before Friday, as it takes about five working days.

That's all well and good... but the vet didn't know this? He was going on, telling us that MSU is the gold standard in thyroid testing, but he had no idea how long it takes to get the results back?! Makes me think that he's never dealt with them before.

Boy, I can pick 'em, can't I? :doh:
This one we're going to Saturday HAS to be good. We're due. The odds HAVE to be in our favor.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> It just gets better and better...
> 
> The vet just called. Apparently, he called MSU to see what's taking so long with the thyroid panel. They told him that they wouldn't have the results before Friday, as it takes about five working days.
> 
> ...


It took us about a week to get ours back. By the time they came back with them I was actually in Michigan in the airport--I could have driven to pick them up! :doh:


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> It took us about a week to get ours back. By the time they came back with them I was actually in Michigan in the airport--I could have driven to pick them up! :doh:


LOL. I wouldn't have minded the time, but I was a little surprised the vet didn't know how long it typically takes.
The results came in yesterday afternoon. (Mom picked up a copy last night.) So they were all wrong about the five days thing, anyway. I'm starting to think that _nobody_ knows what they're doing, anymore. 

He ordered the panel without the written interpretation, which I don't understand. If he feels that MSU is the gold standard, you'd think he'd want their interpretation along with the results.

This panel is Greek to me. It doesn't look anything like the results I got from Dr. Dodds, so I don't know that I can make heads or tails of it. If I'm looking at this correctly (and that's a BIG if) they're showing that he's within the normal range. Exactly what I was afraid of.

They're showing
TT4 20 with a reference range of 11-60.
TT3 1.5 with a range of 0.8-2.1
Free T4 14 range of 6-42
FT3 5.2 range of 1.2-8.2
T4 Autoantibody 11 range of 0-20
T3 Autoantibody 8 range of 1-10
Thyroid Stimulating Hormone 16 range of 0-30
Thyroglobulin Autoantibody 9 range of 0-35

They also show, after each of these readings, a "units" column. For the TT4 (for example) they show "nmol/L" and at the bottom of the entire page there's a legend that reads "L= Low Result."
Does that mean they're saying he's low on these readings...??

Gah... Is it Saturday yet?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The interpretation costs extra.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It usually takes us a week to 10 days to get results back. Depends on when the blood was taken as it goes in the mail.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

LifeOfRiley said:


> LOL. I wouldn't have minded the time, but I was a little surprised the vet didn't know how long it typically takes.
> The results came in yesterday afternoon. (Mom picked up a copy last night.) So they were all wrong about the five days thing, anyway. I'm starting to think that _nobody_ knows what they're doing, anymore.
> 
> He ordered the panel without the written interpretation, which I don't understand. If he feels that MSU is the gold standard, you'd think he'd want their interpretation along with the results.
> ...


What did the vet say?

Maybe try calling MSU and see if you can pay for an interpretation.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Interesting--they are in normal ranges.

Can you do a side by side comparison with Dr. Dodd's results? Now I'm beginning to understand why some vets don't trust her (not that her lab is bad--it's just the results can be so different).


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Interesting--they are in normal ranges.
> 
> Can you do a side by side comparison with Dr. Dodd's results? Now I'm beginning to understand why some vets don't trust her (not that her lab is bad--it's just the results can be so different).


I tried doing that and they're so different, I can't make anything of it.

Dr. Dodds report has his T4 at 0.60 with a 'case specific' range of 1.40-3.40 and a general range of 0.80-3.80.
MSU has the T4 at 20 with a reference range of 11-60.

It's like trying to compare apples and oranges.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

nixietink said:


> What did the vet say?
> 
> Maybe try calling MSU and see if you can pay for an interpretation.


Oh, I got little more than a lot of attitude from the vet. He just called a little while ago to tell me that he'd read the results and Riley's thyroid is perfectly normal. That's the final word on it, according to him.

I asked (very nicely, mind you) his opinion about low-normal being low for a Golden and mentioned that I've heard MSU doesn't take breed into account, where Dr. Dodds does. I wasn't being argumentative - I asked for his opinion. Boy, did he get snarky! He said "I've never heard such a thing. If you disagree with their findings, I can refer you to a dermatologist - they're dealing with endocrine issues everyday." WTH?

If we didn't already have an appointment set with another vet, I'd be doing so now!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

In fact when you send in a thyroid for MSU OFA thyroid, it has to be on ice and they measure the temp of the sample before they will do it. And the measurements are slightly different.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> In fact when you send in a thyroid for MSU OFA thyroid, it has to be on ice and they measure the temp of the sample before they will do it. And the measurements are slightly different.


That's interesting, because they drew the blood Friday morning, said they were overnighting it to MSU... but if they only run the tests on business days, Riley's sample sat there all weekend before they got to it.


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## Hali's Mom (Oct 5, 2006)

LifeOfRiley said:


> I wonder why they have a negative opinion of Dr. Dodds. I don't understand that.
> 
> I don't get the scheduling thing, either. Mom talked to the vet, himself, and he didn't want to schedule the appointment until after he gets the results from the thyroid panel. The way he was talking Friday, I got the impression that we were going to do the ultrasound no matter what the panel shows... so I just don't get this guy.
> 
> ...


Yay!!!!!!!!!!!Glad you are going over to Northview, think you will really be impressed. I know I was.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Hali's Mom said:


> Yay!!!!!!!!!!!Glad you are going over to Northview, think you will really be impressed. I know I was.


That's what I keep hearing! 
I remembered you saying how impressed you were with them, and mom's friend at work who is on a first-name basis with most of their vets, he's in there so often, can't say enough about the place... so I'm thinking they have to be pretty good!
I mean, when people are driving in from other states to see these vets..? That speaks volumes. How lucky we are that they're only about a fifteen-minute drive for us!


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

You must be going crazy with all of the delays and conflicting reports! 

Please keep us updated - all the best to you and Riley.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> In fact when you send in a thyroid for MSU OFA thyroid, it has to be on ice and they measure the temp of the sample before they will do it. And the measurements are slightly different.


That is interesting--because Dr. Dodds doesn't require the samples on ice. I know ours were always sent on ice, over nighted and they specifically asked me to bring them in for the draw early in the day, early in the week so they would get there the next day. Then they actually called the lab to insure they received it that day. Based on what you said I'm really impressed with the diligence and care of our dogs' veterinarians. I need to tell them that more often!

Janice, do you prefer dogs to fast for MSU thyroid testing? Dodds doesn't require this.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> That's what I keep hearing!
> I remembered you saying how impressed you were with them, and mom's friend at work who is on a first-name basis with most of their vets, he's in there so often, can't say enough about the place... so I'm thinking they have to be pretty good!
> I mean, when people are driving in from other states to see these vets..? That speaks volumes. How lucky we are that they're only about a fifteen-minute drive for us!


Oh yes!!!! These recommendations say so much!!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> That is interesting--because Dr. Dodds doesn't require the samples on ice. I know ours were always sent on ice, over nighted and they specifically asked me to bring them in for the draw early in the day, early in the week so they would get there the next day. Then they actually called the lab to insure they received it that day. Based on what you said I'm really impressed with the diligence and care of our dogs' veterinarians. I need to tell them that more often!
> 
> Janice, do you prefer dogs to fast for MSU thyroid testing? Dodds doesn't require this.


 
From what I can tell, MSU _didn't_ require that our sample be kept on ice. 
The vet drew the blood late Friday morning and said they were going to overnight it to MSU. Unless they paid for Saturday delivery (which I doubt) the sample sat on a FedEx truck until Monday. And we didn't get the results until late Wednesday afternoon.
He wasn't fasted, either.

With the panel we had done by Dr. Dodds, we drew the blood first thing on a Monday morning, got the sample off to her and had the results in less than two days.


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Wow, I can't believe I've missed this thread....I'm sorry to read all this about Riley and your problems with the vet. I will be watching for news from your visit on Saturday. Sounds like a wonderful place. Hopefully someone there can set your mind at ease. Riley will be in my thoughts and prayers...


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I am confused a bit with all these numbers. Did Dr Dodds find your dogs thyroid was low? and MSU said it was fine?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> I am confused a bit with all these numbers. Did Dr Dodds find your dogs thyroid was low? and MSU said it was fine?


Yep, exactly. Dr. Dodds thinks his thyroid is low enough to need supplementation and MSU thinks it's perfectly normal.
Perhaps we should flip a coin. Agh... tomorrow morning can't come soon enough!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Does MSU factor in breed, age or whether they are spayed/neutered???


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> From what I can tell, MSU _didn't_ require that our sample be kept on ice.
> The vet drew the blood late Friday morning and said they were going to overnight it to MSU. Unless they paid for Saturday delivery (which I doubt) the sample sat on a FedEx truck until Monday. And we didn't get the results until late Wednesday afternoon.
> He wasn't fasted, either.
> 
> With the panel we had done by Dr. Dodds, we drew the blood first thing on a Monday morning, got the sample off to her and had the results in less than two days.


or maybe they should have kept it on ice and the vet didn't comply with it. I'm almost 100% certain it was the MSU profile that we had to keep on ice to submit and it had to be done like I mentioned. 

The MSU website says fasting is preferred to test for certain things. I'd need to pull it up to list the exact reason, but it definitely said fasting is preferred for the thyroid profile.

There is so much inconsistency in what is done for thyroid testing. There really should be uniform standards! 

Best luck tomorrow! I hope you get answers and a plan of action.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Does MSU factor in breed, age or whether they are spayed/neutered???


No, they don't.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Okay, they fact that MSU does NOT take into account breed or whether they are spayed or neutered would be enough to tell me that I would not trut their opinion. 

Neutered dogs are more at risk for thyroid issues. I would go with Dr Dodds and find a vet willing to let you at least try the medication.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Interesting MSU information on OFA thyroid testing:
http://www.dcpah.msu.edu/sections/endocrinology/WEBCD.ENDO.REF.001.pdf
Note the icing and timing requirements.

revised canine thyroid panel reference ranges:
http://www.dcpah.msu.edu/Sections/Endocrinology/WEBCD.ENDO.REF.004.pdf


> _The reference ranges for canine TT4, TT3, FT4 (as reported in standard profiles), FT3, and TSH have been revised. These new reference ranges reflect a study of thyroid test results in over 7000 clinically normal dogs. Note that the reference ranges for FT4 by equilibrium dialysis (as reported in premium profiles), TgAA, T3AA, or T4AA have not changed.
> Click here to view the revised reference range values: Endocrinology Reference Ranges
> 
> Please contact the lab at 517.355.1683 if you have any questions or concerns._


and...the thyroid test parameters for a regular panel do not require icing, but my vet did do this (they follow the OFA standards I guess):
Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health
_



*Turn Around Time:	3-5 Days*
Days Test Started:	Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri
Minimum Sample:	2 mL
Species:	Canine
Specimens & Containers:	Serum • Leakproof Tube

Click to expand...

_


> _Profile includes: TT4, TT3, FT4, FT3, TSH, TgAA, T3AA, T4AA
> 
> *Fasting sample is best to avoid lipemia.* 2 mL of serum, NOT WHOLE BLOOD, pour serum off into plastic tube. The sample can be mailed regular mail and does not need to be on ice. Freezing will not affect the sample after the serum has been separated. If the sample is frozen it can be kept almost indefinitely. Slight to moderate hemolysis is okay, but gross hemolysis or lipemia will greatly affect results (increased TT4 especially). Lipemia may affect other tests (decrease TT3, increase FT3, and increase T3AA). If sample is still lipemic after fasting, indicate on the form and send anyway. WHOLE BLOOD is not acceptable for any tests. Spin down and draw off the serum. If a clot separator tube is used, pull off the serum after it has separated. These tubes do not always hold up during shipping._


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> or maybe they should have kept it on ice and the vet didn't comply with it. I'm almost 100% certain it was the MSU profile that we had to keep on ice to submit and it had to be done like I mentioned.
> The MSU website says fasting is preferred to test for certain things. I'd need to pull it up to list the exact reason, but it definitely said fasting is preferred for the thyroid profile.


That could be the case - I sure as heck don't know! lol. If that IS the case, I wish that MSU would have refused the sample and we could have submitted another. But you're right, there seems to be so much inconsistency...

The breed factor really gets me, too. To me, it only makes sense to factor in age, breed, etc. I mean, what's normal for a 10 year old Chihuahua isn't going to be normal for a 4 year old Golden. The diagnosis can't be very accurate if the range covers what's normal for ALL dogs. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Had an interesting conversation with Riley's original vet this morning. Since I was smart enough to have kept my mouth shut until we have all the answers (aside from my venting here, where no names were involved or anything) I thought it might not be a bad idea to call him.
I wanted to ask him, point blank, if he'd been able to get a good listen to Riley's heart in October. I was very nice and told him that it was okay and I totally understood if he _wasn't_ able to; that I know Riley can make things difficult, etc. (He said he's just a little nervous - nothing that would interfere with an exam.) 
Anyway, he said that he absolutely DID get a good listen and he said his heart sounded fine - perfectly normal and healthy. Said he detected no arrhythmia. (Not sure if that's good or bad.)
He sounded quite concerned and asked what's going on with him. I told him that we wanted a second opinion about his weight-gain/coat/thyroid issue (which he seemed perfectly fine with) and that they detected the arrhythmia. He asked what has been done, what they've said, etc. I brought him up to speed on everything and he said, "So, in other words, they have absolutely no idea." Yeah, pretty much. He asked the name of the cardiologist and when I told him he said, "Get another opinion." He repeated that after I told him how they wanted to sedate him without first doing a complete blood panel. I told him that we have an appointment set up for tomorrow and he gave me the name of another cardiologist, just in case we need it and asked me to keep him in the loop.

So, if he's being honest (and I really can't believe that he would outright LIE about it, especially after I gave him and 'out', so to speak) the arrhythmia wasn't there in October. I figure that could be one more piece to the puzzle.

And on a side note - boy is it fun trying to collect a urine sample from Mr. Riley! I can sneak the container under there, but the second he hears it hitting the plastic, he stops peeing! :doh:


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

The plot thickens.....


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Interesting that Dr George Padgett who was the one who researched breed specific thyroid testing I believe was at MSU. This is an old but interesting thread where Laura (Pointgold) talks about him. 

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...eed-standard/26989-thyroid-question-long.html


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Interesting MSU information on OFA thyroid testing:
> http://www.dcpah.msu.edu/sections/endocrinology/WEBCD.ENDO.REF.001.pdf
> Note the icing and timing requirements.
> 
> ...


 
Very interesting! Thank you!
That's a lot of information - I'll have to go back and read it over.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Interesting that Dr George Padgett who was the one who researched breed specific thyroid testing I believe was at MSU. This is an old but interesting thread where Laura (Pointgold) talks about him.
> 
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...eed-standard/26989-thyroid-question-long.html


 
Wow! The article that Ardeagold linked about aberrant behavior is VERY interesting, too! I'm starting to believe, more and more, that all of his problems are stemming from a thyroid issue.

I could be wrong of course, and I'm not losing sight of that. But every single one of Riley's issues (physical and behavioral) could easily be explained by thyroid disease. So it's that, or we have several things going on, responsible for one or two 'symptoms' each.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Wow! The article that Ardeagold linked about aberrant behavior is VERY interesting, too! I'm starting to believe, more and more, that all of his problems are stemming from a thyroid issue.
> 
> I could be wrong of course, and I'm not losing sight of that. But every single one of Riley's issues (physical and behavioral) could easily be explained by thyroid disease. So it's that, or we have several things going on, responsible for one or two 'symptoms' each.


Now you just need to find one vet who will accept Dr. Dodds test results. Good luck finding that vet!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I think its very sad when you have a specialist saying "Yes the thyroid is low" then you have a regular vet that says "I dont care what the specialist says IMO the thyroid isnt low so now meds"

Very wrong...


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> I think its very sad when you have a specialist saying "Yes the thyroid is low" then you have a regular vet that says "I dont care what the specialist says IMO the thyroid isnt low so now meds"
> 
> Very wrong...


What I really don't understand is the complete one-eighty. The first time we saw him, he said that Hemopet is a very reputable lab (even noted as much in Riley's chart) said that he agreed with the hypothyroid diagnosis and that it could very well be causing this arrhythmia. The next time we walked in the door, right off the bat, he's saying that he trusts MSU and we need to have another panel run. I don't get it.



Dallas Gold said:


> Now you just need to find one vet who will accept Dr. Dodds test results. Good luck finding that vet!


No kidding! Unless this guy can give me a very good reason to think she's wrong (and maybe he will - who knows?) I'll want to follow her suggestions. But we'll find out soon enough.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

All I would say is either we try the medication or I will find another vet who will. If he feels you will pay someone else maybe he will be more inclined to try the meds?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If it gives you something to compare to... I bolded your guy's results and followed them up with analysis from Jacks' thyroid check. 



*TT4: 20 with a reference range of 11-60.*

Jacks was 10, Dr. Dodds said it should have been 30-65

*TT3: 1.5 with a range of 0.8-2.1*

MSU didn't have enough of this sample?

*Free T4: 14 range of 6-42*

Jacks was 5, Dodds said it should have been 12-24.

*FT3: 5.2 range of 1.2-8.2*

Jacks was 1.7, Dodds said it should have been 2-10

*T4AA: 11 range of 0-20*

Jacks was 13, Dodds said it should have been less than 10

*T3AA: 8 range of 1-10*

Jacks was 3, Dodds said it had to be less than 5

*Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH): 16 range of 0-30*

Jacks was 6, Dodds said it had to be less than 35

*Thyroglobulin Autoantibody: 9 range of 0-35*

Jacks was 5, Dodds said it needed to be less than 35. 


**** I would go in to the vet and discuss the results with your vet. There should have been an explanation/analysis from the MSU endocrinologist. I'm surprised that this was optional. 

MSU did not require fasting and even if you live in Michigan as I do, it takes up to a week to get results.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The regular MSU thyroid panel doesn't have to be kept on ice, it's the OFA one that does.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And yes, you check off a box for interpretation, it used to be an additional charge, I think it still is an additional charge.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> And yes, you check off a box for interpretation, it used to be an additional charge, I think it still is an additional charge.


Is this something that is just handled differently vet to vet? Like if they want to keep the costs down for the clients?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes it is handled differently from vet to vet... My original boss was all about cutting corners, but I think the techs know that I always want an interpretation...you can also add it on after the fact.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Just a quick update -

LOVE this guy!!
He's not too concerned about it being anything serious. We're doing an abdominal ultrasound Wednesday afternoon and we'll see if we can get a look at the auricle, but he expects it to be clear.
I mentioned the dreaded, god-awful Hemangio thought that's been going through my head and he isn't too concerned about it, based on what he's seeing. 

He does prefer MSU to Dr. Dodds for thyroid tests, BUT he said that since Riley sure is presenting as a hypothyroid dog, he's inclined to go ahead and treat. And yes, it could be causing the arrhythmia.

We should get the results from his bloodwork back this afternoon. Stool sample and urinalysis were okay. We're just checking things off, one thing at a time, for now... but he said that he does not see a sick dog.

So we still don't have all the answers, but we seem to be on the right track to getting them!

And now, since Mr. Riley is full of beans and acting like a little monster, I have to go stop him from trying to rip his piggie to shreds. 
I'll fill in the details later, but for now... it all looks good!


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Glad this is finally going somewhere! Wow, I can only imagine how frustrating this is...I'm frustrated just reading it!! So happy you're getting some answers and are finally able to make a plan! Wishing you and Riley the best of the luck!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm glad this guy is going to do a trial run on the thyroid supplementation. You should see some improvements fairly soon if Riley is hypothyroid. I hope you get a definitive on the heart murmur at the next ultrasound too.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Best wishes!!! Hope thyroid supplementation helps!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Well, his bloodwork came back perfectly normal.  The vet said everything looks REAL good.

So Wednesday afternoon we have the abdominal ultrasound. We'll have two vets on that - their guy that normally does the ultrasounds and the vet we saw on Saturday. He wanted to schedule it when he'd be there, too, so he could consult with the ultrasound guy, sort of bring him up to speed, provide another pair of eyes, etc. (We were impressed and a little blown away by that.) 

This place just finally seems like the perfect balance. They're incredibly thorough, but they're moving the ball and getting things done. He was a little surprised that the last place hadn't done a complete blood workup and hadn't even suggested a urinalysis. (We went in with sample in-hand and he said that was great - he would have suggested running that, anyway.)
He did do an ultrasound of his prostate while we were there Saturday. They found a couple red blood cells in his urine. I love this guy's manner, though - rather than just walking back in the room and saying 'there's some blood in his urine' which would have scared us, he came back in and asked if there are any females in season around here, then explained why he was asking. We told him we couldn't be certain, but it's more than possible. We decided to go ahead and ultrasound the prostate just to make sure it wasn't BPH. He said everything looks great - perfectly normal. (And Riley stood there like a perfect angel for that. I was so proud of him!)

And it didn't seem like he had any preconceived notions about Dr. Dodds. I mentioned how some people love her and some think she's a nut. He said he's heard both. He said that he prefers MSU because of their proven track record and because Dr. Dodds' test didn't measure the TSH, where MSU did. 
He did say that he's not always 100% convinced of the results, though. He told us that he's had dogs showing every classic symptom of hypothyroidism, but the test comes back 'normal.' He said they've treated anyway, and the dogs have rebounded beautifully. He said they've even treated for thyroid in dogs who have skin issues, when nothing else has worked and it's done the trick. So he has no problem treating the symptoms. And he agreed that Riley sure does have symptoms! He actually agreed with us that his coat is horrible. (The last guy said his coat looked great. Ugh!)
We were going to start the meds right away, but after talking about it, we all agreed that we'd rather take one more step - get the ultrasound, they'll consult the cardiologist and get the all-clear to start the thyroid meds and maybe a beta blocker. So, we should be able to do that by the end of this week. Finally!



Megora said:


> If it gives you something to compare to... I bolded your guy's results and followed them up with analysis from Jacks' thyroid check.


Thank you so much for doing that! One more cup of coffee and I'll take a good look at that when I'm awake. (I actually went back to bed and slept in this morning after I took Riley out and fed him. These couple weeks of not sleeping well finally caught up to me.)


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, it certainly sounds like this is the perfect match for Riley. I'm so relieved for you. I hope the sonogram doesn't show any abnormality and you can proceed to the trial run of thyroid supplementation. Let us know if Riley is placed on a beta blocker too.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, it certainly sounds like this is the perfect match for Riley. I'm so relieved for you. I hope the sonogram doesn't show any abnormality and you can proceed to the trial run of thyroid supplementation. Let us know if Riley is placed on a beta blocker too.


Yeah, I'll let you know what we find out Wednesday. He said that obviously we can't be _certain_ until we do the ultrasound, but he's sort of expecting that it won't reveal anything abnormal. So I'm going into it with guarded optimism, like he seems to be doing.

He seems optimistic enough, too, that he's already looking at things further down the road. We were talking about his fear issues and his reactivity/aggression. He thinks there's a decent chance that it is related to the thyroid, so we'll see if the supplementation has any effect. If not, or if doesn't have enough of an effect, we can look at neutering (depending on what the situation is with his heart, at that point.) We talked at length about that and he answered a lot of the questions we had and eased our concerns about it. So it's on the table. And he said if we still have problems, down the road, he can hook us up with their certified behaviorist. He said she's wonderful and fear aggression cases are what she specializes in. So as long as she isn't a Cesar wannabe, that might be something to think about.
He just seems to take a much more comprehensive approach than anyone else we've been to and I LOVE that! He said that he wants him to come in there without being so afraid that he needs to be muzzled.
Though I think we're on the path to that, anyway. They even got his nails for us when we were there and the tech said he did not growl, did not fuss... not so much as a grumble out of him. They had to lay him on his side to get one of his back feet and she said that you can tell he doesn't like that, but he didn't get the least bit snarky. 

So yeah, dare I say that I think we might have found the right fit? I hate to jinx it... LOL.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Lincoln_16 said:


> All I would say is either we try the medication or I will find another vet who will. If he feels you will pay someone else maybe he will be more inclined to try the meds?


Believe me, the frustration has built up enough over the past few weeks that I may have _felt_ like saying that... but starting a relationship with a new vet on such an adversarial note isn't the way to go about it. If we'd gone in with that kind of attitude, I have a feeling that any vet worthy of his or her license would tell us to go pound salt.
Yes, we wanted someone who would finally DO something for Riley, but we wanted an honest opinion and an accurate diagnosis, too. I wouldn't want someone who would throw medication at him just to keep our business.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

This new Vet sounds wonderful. I think you will be amazed at the changes. Some people see them within days, most often 2-3 weeks. It will take about 3 months for everything to level out IF the dosage is right. Did he tell you you will need to give thyroid pills 1 hour before or 3 hours after feeding to work their best. He will probably want to retest 4-6 weeks after you start meds. Make sure you give the meds 4 hours before the blood is pulled. I am sooo glad you finally found someone you can work with and can get answers from !! Yay


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Claire's Friend said:


> This new Vet sounds wonderful. I think you will be amazed at the changes. Some people see them within days, most often 2-3 weeks. It will take about 3 months for everything to level out IF the dosage is right. Did he tell you you will need to give thyroid pills 1 hour before or 3 hours after feeding to work their best. He will probably want to retest 4-6 weeks after you start meds. Make sure you give the meds 4 hours before the blood is pulled. I am sooo glad you finally found someone you can work with and can get answers from !! Yay


No, he didn't go into all the details yet. We had so many questions and so much else to talk about (we were there for over an hour.) He said we'll talk about dosage, when to give, when to retest, what to watch for, etc, once he gets the okay from the cardiologist to go ahead and start supplementation.

I'm really anxious to see if it has any effect on his temperament. It'll be interesting. We never considered any kind of thyroid issue when he first starting showing fear aggression, and really hadn't given it any thought until now, either. It would certainly explain it, though, where nothing else really does.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I know with thyroid medication it has to be given a couple hours before/after food or its not as effective. I found that out the hard way with my Rottie


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lincoln_16 said:


> I know with thyroid medication it has to be given a couple hours before/after food or its not as effective. I found that out the hard way with my Rottie


My vet emphasized, as did the techs... 1 hour before meals, 12 hours apart. 

So my guy is on a 6AM / 6PM schedule.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Megora said:


> My vet emphasized, as did the techs... 1 hour before meals, 12 hours apart.
> 
> So my guy is on a 6AM / 6PM schedule.


 
So they really don't care for the 3 hours after...?

I can do the 12 hours apart, but if we have to give it an hour before meals, Riley is not going to be a happy guy in the morning. We get up, go out for a quick potty and he gets breakfast. If I have to make him wait an hour, he won't be a happy camper.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

There's differing interpretations among veterinarians on the timing of the med. I think the bottom line is it's optimal to do it 12 hours apart, either 1 hour before a meal or 3 hours after, to insure maximum absorption. If you can't do it like this you might end up dosing at a higher level to make up for the loss of absorption that eating will cause. As long as you figure some sort of consistent schedule out and then do a retest or two that shows he is at normal levels with the way you are dosing him you should be fine. You just want to avoid fluctuations in levels if you can help it. Some vets will tell you once a day is fine, but the half-life of the medication is 12 hours or so. I found giving it twice a day about 12 hours apart helped maintain Toby's levels a little better--and he felt better because the amount in his system was fairly constant. (I hope that made sense--I'm having trouble explaining what I'm trying to convey!).

And if that doesn't confuse you, there are certain foods that can interfere with thyroid levels if you give them to your dog (some fruits and veggies). I don't give my guy people food anymore so I don't remember the ones that triggered reactions in the levels.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I've been so busy and sick lately I am just now catching up on this thread. I'm relieved to hear that the vet does not seem concerned by Riley's arrhythmia... hopefully it is just an artifact of low thyroid! I will keep reading this thread to check up on Riley's progress, and in the meantime I'll be thinking good thoughts for him! Good luck on Wednesday!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> There's differing interpretations among veterinarians on the timing of the med. I think the bottom line is it's optimal to do it 12 hours apart, either 1 hour before a meal or 3 hours after, to insure maximum absorption. If you can't do it like this you might end up dosing at a higher level to make up for the loss of absorption that eating will cause. As long as you figure some sort of consistent schedule out and then do a retest or two that shows he is at normal levels with the way you are dosing him you should be fine. You just want to avoid fluctuations in levels if you can help it. Some vets will tell you once a day is fine, but the half-life of the medication is 12 hours or so. I found giving it twice a day about 12 hours apart helped maintain Toby's levels a little better--and he felt better because the amount in his system was fairly constant. (I hope that made sense--I'm having trouble explaining what I'm trying to convey!).
> 
> And if that doesn't confuse you, there are certain foods that can interfere with thyroid levels if you give them to your dog (some fruits and veggies). I don't give my guy people food anymore so I don't remember the ones that triggered reactions in the levels.


Yep, it made sense. 
The 12 hours apart is no problem at all, but I'll talk to our vet. If he feels that the one hour before is better, we'll figure something out. I'm sure Riley would get used to a new routine fairly quickly - it would just be the first few days that he'd be looking at me like I've lost my mind when he doesn't get his breakfast right away!

And thank you for mentioning that about the foods! I had no idea and will have to find out exactly which ones to avoid. He won't eat most fruits or veggies, anyway (lol) but I know there are some small amounts in his kibble, so I'll have to write this stuff down and remember to ask about it.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Yep, it made sense.
> The 12 hours apart is no problem at all, but I'll talk to our vet. If he feels that the one hour before is better, we'll figure something out. I'm sure Riley would get used to a new routine fairly quickly - it would just be the first few days that he'd be looking at me like I've lost my mind when he doesn't get his breakfast right away!
> 
> And thank you for mentioning that about the foods! I had no idea and will have to find out exactly which ones to avoid.


I think it's all listed in Dr. Dodd's book on canine thyroid disease. You can buy it at Amazon and given you've gone through so much time, expense and trouble to get Riley this far, the book might be helpful to you to read. If I remember right she mentioned bananas as one of those foods and Toby used to love to get my banana ends!


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

"_If you can't do it like this you might end up dosing at a higher level to make up for the loss of absorption that eating will cause_."

Even 30 minutes before eating would give it some time to absorb. I had to have my throid removed 8 years ago due to Grave's disease. 
I refused to go without my coffee(with cream and sugar) in the mornings so I ended up being prescribed a fairly large dose for a person my size. The key is consistency and hopefully you can wait at least 30 minutes before feeding.

The problem I had with waiting 3 hours after eating or drinking was that I honestly never go that long.

I've spent time on both the hypo and hyper sides of the thyroid and neither one are fun. I do know that hypo causes me to overreact emotionally and have a hard time coping and hyper wreaks havoc on my entire system.

I hope riley gets better soon!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

just stopping by to say that I'm thinking of you guys!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> I think it's all listed in Dr. Dodd's book on canine thyroid disease. You can buy it at Amazon and given you've gone through so much time, expense and trouble to get Riley this far, the book might be helpful to you to read. If I remember right she mentioned bananas as one of those foods and Toby used to love to get my banana ends!


I'll order that book this morning. I'm sure any and all information I can get will be helpful.
Bananas aren't a problem - Riley hates bananas. Banana bread, banana muffins... now those are a different story! LOL. But try to give him a piece of banana and he spits it out. 



coppers-mom said:


> "_If you can't do it like this you might end up dosing at a higher level to make up for the loss of absorption that eating will cause_."
> Even 30 minutes before eating would give it some time to absorb. I had to have my throid removed 8 years ago due to Grave's disease.
> I refused to go without my coffee(with cream and sugar) in the mornings so I ended up being prescribed a fairly large dose for a person my size. The key is consistency and hopefully you can wait at least 30 minutes before feeding.
> The problem I had with waiting 3 hours after eating or drinking was that I honestly never go that long.
> ...


I can't say that I blame you, there. I couldn't (and wouldn't) go without my morning coffee, either. 
We can do the hour before feeding, if we need to. I'd just have to avoid "the stare" for the first few days, until he gets used to his breakfast being a little later. He won't like it, but if it's for his own good, he'll get used to it.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

SO glad you like the new vet and that Riley is doing better.

I didn't know about the food thing either.. Gunner loves bananas!! We are due to have his recheck soon.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have only heard about giving thyroid on an empty stomach on this forum. So I looked it up in our "Bible" it's a drug handbook by Plumb. No mention of administering thyroid supplement on an empty stomach. The only mention was that high fiber decreases absorption of thyroid supplement. So I called MSU and the guy I spoke to was not recommending that supplementation had to be given on an empty stomach. I have never told clients to do that and I have many successful thyroid outcomes and no unsuccessful thyroid outcomes.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Debles said:


> SO glad you like the new vet and that Riley is doing better.
> 
> I didn't know about the food thing either.. Gunner loves bananas!! We are due to have his recheck soon.


So far, we absolutely love this guy! We've only met one of the techs so far, but she seems nothing short of wonderful, too. (I mean, if she could get Riley's nails without so much as a growl out of him...? She's good!)

And the nice little bonus - I couldn't get over the prices. I figured we'd be paying a premium to get him treated there. This place is HUGE. They have 16 vets on staff there, just to give you an idea. There are little maps in each room, telling you that "you are here" so you don't get lost. I was expecting to fall over before she gave us the total Saturday, considering all that they did. It was LESS than just an exam/consult and one set of x-rays with the last guy. I had to make sure she included everything and didn't forget to charge us for something!

Good luck with Gunner's recheck!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have only heard about giving thyroid on an empty stomach on this forum. So I looked it up in our "Bible" it's a drug handbook by Plumb. No mention of administering thyroid supplement on an empty stomach. The only mention was that high fiber decreases absorption of thyroid supplement. So I called MSU and the guy I spoke to was not recommending that supplementation had to be given on an empty stomach. I have never told clients to do that and I have many successful thyroid outcomes and no unsuccessful thyroid outcomes.


Well, that's interesting!
So it's probably another one of those things that vets have different philosophies about...?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Could it be that Dr. Dodds is suggesting the food avoidance theory because the research is in human thyroid supplementation and not there in dogs yet?? Someone on this forum mentioned the food/supplement connection a few years ago when Toby's levels were bouncing like rubber balls. We ended up cutting out a lot of the human veggies/fruits for a combo of reasons-namely his digestive issues (soft stools). He still bounced. The only thing that helped there was going to a twice a day regimen for supplementation. 

*Very* interesting!


Edit: pulled out the book. On page 32 she discusses foods that interfere with thyroid hormone production in the body-- namely soy products and cruciferous veggies. Note--bananas not on that list. I must have read that elsewhere! 

Page 108 begins the discussion of administration of the supplement and she goes into detail about the 1 hour prior/3 hour post issue. She acknowledges the product label states give it with food, but she is solidly in the camp against it due to thyroid supplement binding with calcium in soy products. 

I can't quote here without possibly violating her copyrights to the material, but the above is her theory at least. 

Now I'm going to go figure out if toby can have a banana end as a treat now!!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

More: From University of Maryland:


> Following these nutritional tips may help reduce symptoms:
> 
> Eat foods high in B-vitamins and iron, such as whole grains (if no allergy), fresh vegetables, and sea vegetables.
> Avoid foods that interfere with thyroid function, including broccoli, cabbage, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, kale, spinach, turnips, soybeans, peanuts, linseed, pine nuts, millet, cassava, and mustard greens.
> ...


Hypothyroidism


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Could it be that Dr. Dodds is suggesting the food avoidance theory because the research is in human thyroid supplementation and not there in dogs yet?? Someone on this forum mentioned the food/supplement connection a few years ago when Toby's levels were bouncing like rubber balls. We ended up cutting out a lot of the human veggies/fruits for a combo of reasons-namely his digestive issues (soft stools). He still bounced. The only thing that helped there was going to a twice a day regimen for supplementation.
> *Very* interesting!
> Edit: pulled out the book. On page 32 she discusses foods that interfere with thyroid hormone production in the body-- namely soy products and cruciferous veggies. Note--bananas not on that list. I must have read that elsewhere!
> Page 108 begins the discussion of administration of the supplement and she goes into detail about the 1 hour prior/3 hour post issue. She acknowledges the product label states give it with food, but she is solidly in the camp against it due to thyroid supplement binding with calcium in soy products.
> ...


Could it have been something with the potassium in bananas, that you were maybe trying to avoid with Toby...?

LOL - just when ya think you have this stuff figured out, right...?! :bowl:

It'll be interesting to see what this vet thinks about the 'give with food' or the hour before/three hours after thing. If the manufacturer recommends giving with food, I'm surprised that so many tell you not to. That's odd.

I know there isn't any soy in his food and we don't eat anything with soy either (mainly because it does not agree with me) so we won't have to be careful about avoiding that. And I don't think I could get Riley to eat a cruciferous veggie if I smothered it in cheese AND gravy. He's not a veggie guy.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Deni*

Deni

So glad that you and Riley love his new vet!!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> More: From University of Maryland:
> 
> Hypothyroidism


Thank you!
It's interesting that an Omega 3 seems to help, too. He's been getting 1000mg of salmon oil, daily, for a couple years now...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Thank you!
> It's interesting that an Omega 3 seems to help, too. He's been getting 1000mg of salmon oil, daily, for a couple years now...


Back before Barkley and Toby were put on supplementation, at the point I was suspecting a thyroid issue with Barkley, I asked his acupuncture vet if acupuncture and/or herbs could help thyroid function. She was holistically inclined in her practice and she told me to go with the real thing--the supplementation, because while acupuncture can increase overall feelings of wellness, she didn't find it helped the thyroid function that much. She also said there are no alternative treatments to the supplement. She encouraged me to get the thyroid testing done. Interesting the U Maryland synopsis touts acupuncture as a possible way to increase thyroid function. 

here is another article worthy of reading: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/Adobe/Dodds%20Immune%20System%20-Autoimmune.pdf


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Before I started with Dr. Dodds (then using MSU) I gave with food. After I went to the 1B/3A, I was able to cut the amount of medication required by half, sometimes more. I have had several dogs turned into my rescue that the owners were going to PTS because of skin issues. Their thyroids tested normal. We put them on a half dose of the suggested amount and their issues all resolved. When retested , they still all showed in the normal range. I have been able to pull dogs off seizure meds after getting their thyroids regulated. It's not a fix all, but it sure can fix a lot if it's the problem. If they live long enough, every one of my own dogs and the dogs that I have rescued (we're talking hundreds) have ended up as thyroid dogs. At this point, I feel like it's part of being a Golden.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Claire's Friend said:


> At this point, I feel like it's part of being a Golden.


That thought crossed my mind and I posted a thread about it a while back for opinions.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...rd/98367-percentage-goldens-thyroid-meds.html


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Claire's Friend said:


> Before I started with Dr. Dodds (then using MSU) I gave with food. After I went to the 1B/3A, I was able to cut the amount of medication required by half, sometimes more. *I have had several dogs turned into my rescue that the owners were going to PTS because of skin issues. Their thyroids tested normal. We put them on a half dose of the suggested amount and their issues all resolved.* When retested , they still all showed in the normal range. I have been able to pull dogs off seizure meds after getting their thyroids regulated. It's not a fix all, but it sure can fix a lot if it's the problem. If they live long enough, every one of my own dogs and the dogs that I have rescued (we're talking hundreds) have ended up as thyroid dogs. At this point, I feel like it's part of being a Golden.


Our vet said exactly the same thing. He told us that he's put dogs on thyroid supplementation just because of skin issues, after nothing else has worked, and it's done the trick. That's why he has no problem supplementing Riley, even with the "normal" test results from MSU.



Dallas Gold said:


> Back before Barkley and Toby were put on supplementation, at the point I was suspecting a thyroid issue with Barkley, I asked his acupuncture vet if acupuncture and/or herbs could help thyroid function. She was holistically inclined in her practice and she told me to go with the real thing--the supplementation, because while acupuncture can increase overall feelings of wellness, she didn't find it helped the thyroid function that much. She also said there are no alternative treatments to the supplement. She encouraged me to get the thyroid testing done. Interesting the U Maryland synopsis touts acupuncture as a possible way to increase thyroid function.


Yeah, I'd be real hesitant to try treating something like thyroid with a holistic approach. I love the idea of holistic medicine and I do believe there's a time and a place, and I think it really can and does help. But sometimes, ya just need good, old-fashioned drugs. :


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I have no thyroid so I rely on medication to supply all my thyroid hormone and it has worked fine and stayed pretty steady for 8 years with me having coffee in the morning. I'm about 5'4" and 150 lbs:doh: and take 200mcgs daily. Usual dosage would be about 125 mcgs.

This quote is for people, but it seems like it would be the same for dogs.:
_____________________________________________________________
Many doctors recommend that for best absorption of your thyroid hormone, take it first thing the morning, on an empty stomach, and wait one hour before eating, and at least two hours before taking any vitamin with iron. 

However, if you cannot take it this way, _consistency_ becomes the key. If you're going to take your thyroid hormone with food, take it every day with food, consistently. If you've changed from taking it on an empty stomach, then around six to eight weeks after you start taking it with food, you should have another TSH test to ensure you're receiving the proper amount of thyroid hormone. Taking the drug with food might inhibit absorption somewhat, but this safety check will make sure your dosage gets tweaked if it needs to be changed slightly. But again, CONSISTENCY. Don't take it some days with food, some days without, or you're sure to have erratic absorption, and it will be harder to regulate your TSH levels.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> I have no thyroid so I rely on medication to supply all my thyroid hormone and it has worked fine and stayed pretty steady for 8 years with me having coffee in the morning. I'm about 5'4" and 150 lbs:doh: and take 200mcgs daily. Usual dosage would be about 125 mcgs.
> This quote is for people, but it seems like it would be the same for dogs.:
> _____________________________________________________________
> Many doctors recommend that for best absorption of your thyroid hormone, take it first thing the morning, on an empty stomach, and wait one hour before eating, and at least two hours before taking any vitamin with iron.
> However, if you cannot take it this way, _consistency_ becomes the key. If you're going to take your thyroid hormone with food, take it every day with food, consistently. If you've changed from taking it on an empty stomach, then around six to eight weeks after you start taking it with food, you should have another TSH test to ensure you're receiving the proper amount of thyroid hormone. Taking the drug with food might inhibit absorption somewhat, but this safety check will make sure your dosage gets tweaked if it needs to be changed slightly. But again, CONSISTENCY. Don't take it some days with food, some days without, or you're sure to have erratic absorption, and it will be harder to regulate your TSH levels.


Well, luckily consistency isn't a problem for us. When it comes to the important things, we set a routine and we don't deviate from it. If we do, we tend to forget things, so we know better!

His ultrasound is at 2:00 today. I didn't think I'd be quite as nervous going in this time, but I was wrong. I'm just about a total nervebag this morning. I do have a good feeling, but I'm too afraid to trust it.
I'll post at least a quick update when we get back. Wish us luck!


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Wishing you much luck and saying a prayer for wonderful results.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> Wishing you much luck and saying a prayer for wonderful results.


Thank you!


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Riley*

Praying that Riley has a really good ultrasound!!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Good luck today!


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Keeping all of you in our thoughts and prayers


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## Hali's Mom (Oct 5, 2006)

Hope the ultrasound goes/went well today, knew you would love Northview and you are lucky that you live so close (I used to work in N. Olmsted). 

*We can do the hour before feeding, if we need to. I'd just have to avoid "the stare" for the first few days, until he gets used to his breakfast being a little later. He won't like it, but if it's for his own good, he'll get used to it.*

I had Hali on an 8AM to 8PM schedule as I selfishly didn't want to get up any earlier than that on the weekends. 
She got used to it.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Thinking about you and Riley!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

We're back. They found NOTHING! 

Everything looks perfectly normal. Spleen, liver, kidneys, auricle, you name it... everything. Perfectly normal. (WHEW!)

So he wants to start him on a beta blocker. We have to take him back in next week to basically do a follow-up and an EKG. As long as everything looks good, we'll start the thyroid meds at that point.

He said they just don't know what could be causing the arrhythmia. It's just one of those things, and it still could be the thyroid.

We're just so relieved!

And they didn't sedate him, either. The other guy (our regular vet) figured they would, but this guy said he doesn't like to drug them unless he absolutely has to. Riley was so good, I was amazed.

Thank you all so much for your thoughts and prayers. They mean more to us than you know!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Hali's Mom said:


> Hope the ultrasound goes/went well today, knew you would love Northview and you are lucky that you live so close (I used to work in N. Olmsted).
> 
> *We can do the hour before feeding, if we need to. I'd just have to avoid "the stare" for the first few days, until he gets used to his breakfast being a little later. He won't like it, but if it's for his own good, he'll get used to it.*
> 
> ...


That place is nothing short of amazing. We absolutely love it! 
We're not far from North Olmsted at all. In fact, we're up at Great Northern all the time (probably a little TOO often. LOL.) If you're ever back in the area, you'll have to let me know.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Fabulous news!! It's always good to get one of those absolutely normal results!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Ah, what a relief for you!


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana:


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

FANTASTIC!!!! What great news. Way to go Riley!!!!


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

Wonderful, wonderful news!

Make sure they check Riley after he starts the thyroid medicine. Based on my personal experience it very well could be the thyroid causing his arrythmia.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Just wanted to thank all of you again for your thoughts and prayers. 

The beta blocker doesn't seem to be causing any side effects, so that's good. He was all full of it and ready to go this morning, and his appetite is quite healthy. As usual. 

I slept like a baby last night. First night I've actually _slept_ in weeks. I'd been waking up three or four times during the night, to check on him. It was really nice to actually get a good night's sleep.



coppers-mom said:


> Make sure they check Riley after he starts the thyroid medicine. Based on my personal experience it very well could be the thyroid causing his arrythmia.


Definitely. They want to see him next week, to see what the beta blocker is doing. They'll have spoken to the cardiologist by then and will have (fingers crossed) gotten the okay to start the thyroid meds and they'll want to check him out again after that. They'll want to see if we have him on the right dosages and see whether or not they can still hear the arrhythmia. I won't be a bit surprised if it corrects itself once he's on the thyroid medication. There doesn't seem to be any other cause for it. So either it's just... _there_, with no apparent cause, or it's the thyroid.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

What wonderful news!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, what beta blocker did they prescribe? Toby was put on Amlodipine (5 Mg) and does pretty well on it.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, what beta blocker did they prescribe? Toby was put on Amlodipine (5 Mg) and does pretty well on it.


He put him on Sotalol. 80mg a day (40 in the morning/40 in the evening.) He mentioned another one that for the life of me, I can't remember the name of, but decided to go with the Sotalol because he feels it's very well-tolerated by most dogs. We'll see what it's doing on Wednesday, when they check him out again and run the EKG. It doesn't seem to be having any negative effects.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

This is wonderful!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

How is Riley? 

Has he been to his follow up yet?


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Riley*

Glad to hear that Riley is doing well!!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> How is Riley?
> 
> Has he been to his follow up yet?


He seems fine. The vet told us to watch for any signs of lethargy or decreased energy after starting the beta blocker, but we're not seeing any at all. If anything, he seems to have a little _more_ spunk. I don't know if it's just coincidence, or if the beta blocker is making him feel better...?

He goes in for his follow-up and the EKG this evening. I'm hoping that once they see that, they'll have enough information to give us some more answers.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Looking for an update on Riley's visit!!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

He did great!

I guess the EKG (or ECG) thing has to print out and they read it later...? I'm not real sure how that works. But he's supposed to give me a call today or tomorrow and let me know what they see. 

We asked about exercise and told him that we've been holding him back until we know what's going on and know exactly how much exercise we can safely give him. He said, "As long as this looks good, go for it - do what you want." We told him that Riley's always on-leash, but that he loves his brisk, two to three mile at a time walks and he said there should be no problem with that, whatsoever. 

And our regular vet there already had it noted in his chart that we're starting him on .5mg of Soloxine, pending the outcome of his re-check and ECG. That was a relief. I was afraid that they might backpeddle on that and decide that they don't want to do it, but apparently they're on-board and feel that he should be treated.

So, I guess everything looks real good! We'll know for sure after he calls with the results, but he doesn't expect to see anything bad. 
Riley's getting to be a real pro at handling these vet visits. He wasn't nearly as nervous last night. He even jumped up, put his paws on the front counter and let the one tech pet him after she said hi to him. Didn't shy away from her at all.

And, there was an older Golden coming in when we were waiting to pay the bill. He was about two and a half feet away from Riley and Riley was actually trying to pull towards him - not with his bullying 'get away from me' thing that he normally does with other dogs... he was just curious. He actually wanted to meet that dog! I really think that all these trips to the vet are helping him overcome his fears. It's a helluva way to do it, but it's a nice, unexpected upside!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Just spoke to the vet. Perfectly normal ECG reading! NO arrhythmias at all! He said the beta blocker is doing its thing and we shouldn't need to tweak the dosage or anything for now.
:banana:

He said that we'll always have to be aware and watch for signs of weakness or lethargy, but as far as he's concerned, Riley can go back to dragging me down the road on our walks if he feels like it. (I told him I'm not going to tell _him_ that. lol.) 

He's putting in the prescription for the thyroid meds today, so we can just pick those up. He wants to re-check that in about a month and re-check his ticker within about 3. ( Though if we're in for a thyroid re-check in a month, I'm sure they'll probably take a look-see at his ticker then, too.)

Best Christmas present EVER!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Yay!!!! Fabulous news!! 

I'm so happy for you!! You've been through a lot in the past month or so--now sit back, breathe a huge sigh of relief and enjoy Riley and the holidays!! You deserve it! 

I hope the thyroid meds work wonders for Riley too.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Yay!!!! Fabulous news!!
> 
> I'm so happy for you!! You've been through a lot in the past month or so--now sit back, breathe a huge sigh of relief and enjoy Riley and the holidays!! You deserve it!
> 
> I hope the thyroid meds work wonders for Riley too.


 
It's been a stressful couple months. All the 'not knowing' and trying to find a vet who would actually DO something for him has been rough. And it's still nothing compared to what you and others here have been going through for months now. I honestly don't know how you do it!

But yeah, now that we feel like we can breathe, we're ready to enjoy the holidays.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

SO happy to hear this. Relax, enjoy, and give him an ear rub from us.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> SO happy to hear this. Relax, enjoy, and give him an ear rub from us.


Will do.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

LifeOfRiley said:


> Just spoke to the vet. Perfectly normal ECG reading!  NO arrhythmias at all! He said the beta blocker is doing its thing and we shouldn't need to tweak the dosage or anything for now.
> :banana:
> 
> He said that we'll always have to be aware and watch for signs of weakness or lethargy, but as far as he's concerned, Riley can go back to dragging me down the road on our walks if he feels like it. (I told him I'm not going to tell _him_ that. lol.)
> ...


WONDEFUL news !! Happy Holidays.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I'm wondering if the thyroid meds could be kicking in already? (We just started them the morning of the 26th.) Or maybe the beta blocker is making him feel better? Maybe both?

He seems to have a LOT more energy all of a sudden.
In the morning, he'd normally curl up somewhere and doze while I'm getting cleaned up and ready to go for our long morning walk. We usually did about 3 miles and he would just lay down and chill for a while when we got back.

This morning, he was running around playing with his big soccer ball while I was getting ready to go, occasionally pushing the bathroom door open to check on my progress. We did a quick, brisk 3 miles and he decided to get a _major_ case of the zoomies when we got back. Then he was prancing around, throwing his piggy up in the air, we played "hall ball" for a little while and then he decided he was finally ready for a snooze.
Wow.
I didn't expect to see this much of a difference.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

It could be both of them! You are probably feeling better about it all too and I"m sure he's happier now that you aren't so worried. Enjoy!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> It could be both of them! You are probably feeling better about it all too and I"m sure he's happier now that you aren't so worried. Enjoy!


Oh, I'm loving it! He had me laughing so hard with his zoomies this morning that my sides now hurt.
He'd get them before, but they were only occasional and usually short-lived. This morning, he was running around here like he was possessed, growling the whole time - completely destroyed mom's bed. It was hilarious.  

I'm not seeing any signs of anxiety or nervousness, though, so I'm happy about that too.


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## Cathy's Gunner (Dec 4, 2008)

Just caught up with everything. Such wonderful news! Have a blessed holiday season. Wet sloppy kisses for Riley from Gunner and Hugs from me....


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Deni, just checking in to see how Riley is doing these days. Are you seeing positive changes still with the thyroid supplementation?


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## dborgers (Dec 7, 2011)

We had a lhasa with arrhythmia who needed daily thyroid meds. She took them most of her life and lived to be 16 1/2.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Dallas Gold said:


> Deni, just checking in to see how Riley is doing these days. Are you seeing positive changes still with the thyroid supplementation?


He seems to be doing real well. He does have more energy and his coat is definitely getting softer. I don't really see it thickening up yet, but we just started the pills two weeks ago today. I imagine it will take a while before we're able to see any major differences, there...?

But overall, he seems to be doing real well.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

What great news. So happy for you all.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Riley*

I am so ecstatic for you and Riley!!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thanks, guys!

I'm just so grateful for the vets we have, now. Had we stayed with our original vet, we'd have never known about the arrhythmia. And the second vet (and his sorry excuse for a cardiologist) were ready to write him off, so I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that these guys probably saved his life. If I understand it correctly, he could have collapsed and died on us at any time, before we got him on the beta blocker. Not something I like to think about! 

He goes in for his thyroid re-check on February 1st. I'm expecting everything to come back fine, with that. The only concern I have, and what I need to ask them about, is keeping him on the beta blocker. I want to ask what the odds are that the thyroid medication will have corrected the arrhythmia and if there's any harm in keeping him on the beta blocker if maybe he doesn't really need it...?


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I had to take beta blockers until I had my thyroid removed. It was a thyroid problem and not intrinsically a heart problem for me so I think it is at leat possible that the same applies to Riley.

Prior to thyroid removal I had to take 20+ pills a day for a variety of things. Now I take just the thyroid replacement pill once a day. It is unbelievable how many things a thyroid being off can affect.

Hugs to Riley and prayers for continued good health.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

coppers-mom said:


> I had to take beta blockers until I had my thyroid removed. It was a thyroid problem and not intrinsically a heart problem for me so I think it is at leat possible that the same applies to Riley.
> 
> Prior to thyroid removal I had to take 20+ pills a day for a variety of things. Now I take just the thyroid replacement pill once a day. It is unbelievable how many things a thyroid being off can affect.
> 
> Hugs to Riley and prayers for continued good health.


 
Yikes. Before all of this, I never knew much about the thyroid. I had no idea that it could wreak such havoc!

We had asked the first vet we saw at this new clinic if Riley's hypothyroidism could be causing the arrhythmia and he didn't think so. He said that they'll see it with hyperthyroidism - not so much with hypo. But I don't know. Everything I've read online seems to indicate the exact opposite. 
We've been seeing a different guy there since then, only because he's the one who did the ultrasound, so we've just been following up with him. I want to ask him about it and see what he thinks.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I didn't know anything about it either until I went to the doctor with "a swollen throat from a cold". Uh - oh. 'Twas a goiter and took 18 months to finally get it removed.

I did have arrhythmia when hyper, maybe not so much with hypo, but I sure wouldn't rule anything out. That dern thing caused all kinds of weird problems.

I just hope Riley is regulated soon and he does great!


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