# Proofing...



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I am watching Janice Gunn's proofing DVD and I must say...LOVE IT! So many great ideas. It got me to thinking, what have you seen or heard about in the ring that maybe should be proofed against? My hope with this thread is that we can come up with a lot of real life experiences so that people just starting out may see it and learn. 

I'll start: During sits and downs, a small child was on the other side of the ring gate offering the end dog a bite of her ice cream cone. Fortunately the steward saw what was happening and told the parents to get their kid. So, proofing idea, have someone offer to share a cookie. 

Of course what goes along with that is screaming and running children...

What else? 

If nothing else, it should be fun hearing about everyone's experience. I heard there was one show down South where a silly Golden got up and was checking the other dogs nether regions....But I'll not tell that story.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Since you are field training, too, I would proof for things that sound/look like hunting set ups. For example, yesterday Riot and I were training by a baseball field. He was SO distracted by the sound. Also, if you have shows outside, you may want to practice around birds flying over and such. Just some thoughts off the top of my head...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sticker dots on the mats.

Random treats on the mats.

Ask a friend to brush you up a clump of fur of their dog and put it on the mats.

Make a show noise video (dogs barking, people talking, clapping, dropping, banging, weird noises, etc). 

Have people squeaking toys and dropping crumpled up pieces of paper (those are even more irresistable than tennis balls). 

Have a friend playing tug games outside the ring where you practice. 

Have somebody crackling a potato chip bag outside the ring.

When a "judge" practices stands with you - loose ties that swat the dog in the face, have them handle bologna and rub it off on their shirt or jacket before patting the dog, have them lean over the dog, have them press down on the back vs the swiffer touch. 

Have a friend tossing dumbbells or sending her dog out over a jump right on the other side of the ring gate as you heal. 

Have somebody eating or talking to your dog as you do an about turn. 

....

..

I could go on forever. o__O


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

This isn't just for me, this is for everyone! But yes, those of us with field dogs too need to be cognizant of the issues that may come up from those activities as well. Birds, bumpers, kite/flag things that vendors sometimes have that may look like a bird...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I was once at a specialty where the long sits & downs (out of sight yet) were next to a pond..you guessed it. A flock of ducks or geese landed.

I have been to trials where smaller bird swoop, streamers flap from the A/C units, that awful screeching sound, having to navigate through the people who seem to congregate at the ring gate while maintaining your dogs focus.

Loud noises.

My King once got stung by a bee while on the OOS.
Of course, dogs wandering during the stays and worse!! rolling LOL

Slamming doors, applause, loudspeakers, gates falling over, little kids running, paper flying, food being offered etc

Heck, I've even had a judge wearing a hat that dripped/streamed water when he bent over for the utility stand


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> . I heard there was one show down South where a silly Golden got up and was checking the other dogs nether regions....But I'll not tell that story.


People shouldn't be showing their dogs if they're not fully trained! Yep, that would have been my thought if it hadn't been me. Which I guess is why it was me, I had to learn some stay empathy and humility some way!

There's a show in Mississippi and the trial weekend often fell on the same weekend as the university's homecoming. The show site was in the middle of the parking lot where the groups for the parade met up. And I swear every high school band in the state of Mississippi was in that parade and marched right past the building with the drums going. So, sometimes you need to proof for marching bands!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Strange dog pee. I don't know how you could collect it without getting super embarrassed, but the smell would be a nice thing to proof against in a controlled environment, since I think that's a big part of what's distracting about other dogs in a stay.

If you could get squares of cloth that had each made contact with a different dog's urine, they'd probably work really well, since you're isolating almost everything but the smell when you work on it. You could even get a couple from bitches that were in heat for an extreme distraction.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

In stay groups, having 2 or 3 people suddenly walk back toward the dogs, as if the dogs had broken. Our Open stays last weekend had a rally exhibitor WALKING THE COURSE in the next ring and making grand sweeping gestures with his arms, hopping up and down while telling his (not present) dog to "Down"!! Would have been worth having video.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

Having your "judge" follow closely while calling a heeling pattern, walking up on the dog on halts, and even standing in front of you as you halt. Also walking up behind dog on fronts. Sorry if I'm repeating some, I am sleep deprived.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

Bar jump bars falling on the ground.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

females in season....


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> females in season....


Oh yeah!!! At all breed shows combined with obedience, it'll happen.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Gates falling over while you're heeling right next to them. 

Entire judge's table crashing over while your dog is in the middle of his down stay.

Dog from the rally ring leaving his owner and sticking his tongue through the gates to lick your dog's back while you are lining up for go-outs.

Dog from the rally ring leaving his owner to play with your dog when he is running full speed towards him on go-outs.

Dog from the rally ring leaving his owner to attack your dog when he is running full speed towards him on go-outs.

Your dog having some spit fall out of his mouth and then having to set up directly on top of the spit mark. (I swear Conner, your own spit won't hurt you, you can sit on, or at least NEAR it)

Someone in bleachers directly above the ring taking a picture with flash of your dog while he is going for the glove, causing dog to turn head away and set his eyes on the wrong glove.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

ummmmm... let me see.. How about someone crashing the high jump with both the dumbell and the dog lol.. Mouse running around during sit and downs.. I would practice a sit next to a dog doing a down and the opposite too...cell phone ringing with a funny sound...Let me get through the show this weekend and I am sure I will have more stories..LOL!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

oh and very important for stays....make sure you sometimes practice QUIET stays with NOTHING going on. I can tell you that a lot of the Open B handlers are hoping for a little something going on during stays to keep their dogs entertained. One thing you don't want from most dogs in Open B is for them to get bored and tired!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Few more from last night!! I was at a class and had to run out to my truck to get my dumbbell - apparently just as a pack of coyotes were celebrating a feast (one of the feral cats most likely) so...

Yipping, barking, howling coyotes
Blowing truck horn repeatedly (me trying to get them away)

The dogs inside the building a metal building) had quite the commotion to work through - especially since the other handlers and instructor came running to the doors to make sure I was okay


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

all the lights in the building going out in a building with very few windows
STORMS if you have a dog that cares about them (I've seen some great working OTCH dogs crash and burn during storms)
kids ringside reaching out to pet the dogs
for sure clapping and cheering, it happens all the time in other rings
people right outside the ring playing tug with their dogs


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

You can buy bobcat pee at the hunting store. That'd probably perk up a dog's ears.

And of course duck scent, same aisle. Not sure if this one is a bad idea for dogs who also do hunt and field. Think it might be confusing?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> You can buy bobcat pee at the hunting store. That'd probably perk up a dog's ears.
> 
> And of course duck scent, same aisle. Not sure if this one is a bad idea for dogs who also do hunt and field. Think it might be confusing?


Also - one word:

<<<<<<<< Rabbits >>>>>

I assume that would be a bigger problem for field dogs though. :


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> Also - one word:
> 
> <<<<<<<< Rabbits >>>>>
> 
> I assume that would be a bigger problem for field dogs though. :


For lure coursing dogs!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Strange dog pee. I don't know how you could collect it without getting super embarrassed, but the smell would be a nice thing to proof against in a controlled environment, since I think that's a big part of what's distracting about other dogs in a stay.


You are DQ'd in the obedience ring if the dog goes to the bathroom in the ring so hopefully this would not be something you need to do a huge amount of proofing over. 
Personally I wouldn't proof a lot against smelling unless the dog showed he had a problem with it. You would create a problem by setting the dog up to smell things.
This is sort of my philosophy in proofing in general....don't proof against something unusual unless the dog SHOWS you he needs proofing against it. Proofing against things you normally find in the ring is smart (chalk marks on floor, general noise, close judges, etc) but proofing for obscure things is dumb. All it does is bring the dog down and make the whole thing a stressful situation. For example the likelihood of someone running a remote control car through the ring while you do stays is nil. So why freak the dog out over it. 
Check out Bridget Carlsen's training video as she goes into depth about when in the dog's training career and mindset to proof, it's very interesting and makes a lot of sense. She says when she got Hootie she assumed he would be an obnoxious boy and want to sniff and be bad and from day one she proofed out the ying yang against sniffing and other boy behavior. Well guess what Hootie wasn't an obnoxious boy and all the proofing only made him leary of the whole process. It was complete overkill.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Aww clapping and cheering one that has thrown Scout off  When we train in a group we always clap and cheer for each other.

Closing and opening doors.....thrown items (dumbbells)....working dog in another adjacent ring....disabled judges....birds, I've heard of them landing in a ring during stays...

I've personally seen dogs foul the ring as well--in obedience, agility, and conformation! I've also seen dogs get tripped up over a smell that might be in the ring. Watched dog after dog drop its nose at a particular spot in the ring. Later when a corgi sat there for a stay he rolled and rolled on that spot.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> You are DQ'd in the obedience ring if the dog goes to the bathroom in the ring so hopefully this would not be something you need to do a huge amount of proofing over.
> .


not to nit-pick, but I see the term DQ misused so often I just wanted to pop in for those who don't know the difference....dogs that foul the ring must be NQ'd, will most often be excused, but should not be DQ'd (disqualified, which means they can no longer attend or compete in any AKC events)

I have to say I don't think bobcat pee is something I've ever had to worry about running into in the obedience ring!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> You are DQ'd in the obedience ring if the dog goes to the bathroom in the ring so hopefully this would not be something you need to do a huge amount of proofing over.


The smell of urine carries a substantial portion of what's distracting about other dogs, and one of the reasons dogs often smell each other's crotches (and people's) is because of the trace urine there and the information it carries. For those of us that have chatterers and foamers, that behavior is commonly triggered by the smell of urine. Since the original question came out of the example of a foaming, chattering wanderer, it seemed like a reasonable thing to proof against.

I'm not talking about proofing against another dog actually peeing in the ring, which is an NQ. I'm talking about proofing against visiting and the distraction caused by the smell of strange dogs. Using just the smell of urine would allow you to isolate the smell issue and work on it without the added distraction of motion and body language.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I'm talking about proofing against visiting and the distraction caused by the smell of strange dogs. Using just the smell of urine would allow you to isolate the smell issue and work on it without the added distraction of motion and body language.


Dogs are such bad generalizers that I don't think they would make the leap of "square cloth that smells like dog pee" to "strange dogs in general." It might help you get in a few corrections for the dog smelling pee-soaked cloth but probably will do nothing to teach him to ignore the dogs next to him. You're better served just doing a lot of group stays with other dogs, which is not proofing, it's just practicing exactly what they will see in the ring. I think a dog who regularly screwed up in the obedience ring by melting into a chattering, foaming mess of hormones was no where near ready to compete in the first place.
I think half of this thread is suggestions on real things to proof for and the other half are examples of crazy crap that's happened at trials. Which if they were crazy enough to remember, means it probably doesn't happen very often, so why spend too much time proofing on it.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

I have certainly heard myself tell people to not "proof the ridiculous". I also think it is important to make it a game, and a game the dog can win. Start with low level distractions/situations and build on success. This minimizes the risk of souring the dog on the exercise.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

This thread has also served to remind me that I need to proof my girls more! Ziva has not had half of the proofing I normally do before showing. There will be plenty of time for that before we hit shows again in the spring, but I am smacking myself for my lapse.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's what I liked about Janice Gunn's DVD. Her proofing was fun for both handler and dog and did build toward success. I recommended some of the "games" to our local training facility, it will be interesting to see how they use them in training.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

I loved her seminar! Will have to invest in the DVD's to refresh my memory on a lot of the stuff.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

About the proofing... I do think there is one thing that probably messed up my guy's stays way back when we were still first teaching them. And thinking back now, it REALLY BOTHERS ME that I took part in these games.... :doh:

This would be the whole class standing in a circle and taking turns putting their dogs in a stay and walking a complete circuit around the group and back to their dog. Because there were a LOT of people in our classes, I generally would go out of my guy's sight and he learned to jump up and chase after me. Or if he held his stay, he would sit there growing more anxious by the second until I came back in sight. 

My guy was only 7 or 8 months old at the time and didn't completely understand stay at the time. I really truly regret doing this exercise. 

It's too late to go back now, but my next dog I will not do these proofs with him. I will only practice the ring type stays with him and make it as BORING and uneventful as possible. 

Same thing with the "catch up" to heel games. You put your dog in a wait, take a few steps away from him and call him to heel while you are still facing the other direction. <- This is something you practice so that hopefully you can repair a broken heel in the ring and salvage the exercise, but I imagine it also teaches your dog to anticipate that call to heel when you are walking away to do a front or stay.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> About the proofing... I do think there is one thing that probably messed up my guy's stays way back when we were still first teaching them. And thinking back now, it REALLY BOTHERS ME that I took part in these games.... :doh:


My first golden grew to be stay phobic -- I think everyone has to go through that with one dog to realize how dumb it is to stress dogs out "proofing" stays! UGG
I took Slater to a seminar when he was about 10 months old, he was doing stays pretty well at the time but hadn't had much practice staying in a group with other dogs. Stupid me I let him participate in the proofing portion, the instructor rapped on the wall like someone knocking at the front door, Slater jumped up spun around and barked --- YIKES ---- NOT A GOOD PROOF!!!!!!! That's the last time I participated in that! Luckily nothing carried over but it once again reminded me how careful you need to be when proofing ESPECIALLY with stays.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Totally agree! You have to have solid training in before you proof any exercise. Proofing does not come before the training of an exercise is complete, at least that is the way I take it. It doesn't make sense to me to introduce extraordinary factors for an exercise that is not solid on the basics. I hope that makes sense, I'm a bit loopy today.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The obedience Facebook group is having the same discussion right now, and reminded me of a biggie - 

setting up the drop on recall or retrieve on flat right along side the high jump. Some judges do that on purpose and lots of dogs will take the jump. It's not something I will proof early on, but in more experienced dogs needs to be practiced.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> The obedience Facebook group is having the same discussion right now, and reminded me of a biggie -
> 
> setting up the drop on recall or retrieve on flat right along side the high jump. Some judges do that on purpose and lots of dogs will take the jump. It's not something I will proof early on, but in more experienced dogs needs to be practiced.


I also had a judge set up the figure 8 parrallel to the high jump and about 3 feet away - to separate the men from the boys he said, spectators asked if earned extra points for my King barely leaving heel position to take the high jump - twice <sigh>


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Dogs are such bad generalizers that I don't think they would make the leap of "square cloth that smells like dog pee" to "strange dogs in general." It might help you get in a few corrections for the dog smelling pee-soaked cloth but probably will do nothing to teach him to ignore the dogs next to him. You're better served just doing a lot of group stays with other dogs, which is not proofing, it's just practicing exactly what they will see in the ring. I think a dog who regularly screwed up in the obedience ring by melting into a chattering, foaming mess of hormones was no where near ready to compete in the first place.
> I think half of this thread is suggestions on real things to proof for and the other half are examples of crazy crap that's happened at trials. Which if they were crazy enough to remember, means it probably doesn't happen very often, so why spend too much time proofing on it.


Ahhh...see, when I talk about proofing, I'm not talking about setting the dog up next to the distraction and correcting him for breaking. We're coming from two different directions here. I'm talking about using stronger and stronger distractions that I estimate to be slightly weaker than the stay so I can reward him for the right behavior.

I'm I don't think of proofing as setting him up to break so I can get in a few corrections. I'm sort of doing the opposite.

And I don't think you're really asking the dog to generalize if you isolate the actual thing that gets him worked up (the smell of another dog's hormones, in this case) and show it to him. Generalizing (as I usually apply it to dogs) is asking the dog to take a skill from one situation to another. I feel like this is a bit different.

I agree that you can't correct your way out of an over-stimulated dog, though.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Generalizing (as I usually apply it to dogs) is asking the dog to take a skill from one situation to another. I feel like this is a bit different.


That is exactly the case in your example. You're asking the dog to perfect the skill of NOT smelling pee-infused squares of cloth at home or in class and apply it to not smelling a living, breathing dog sitting three feet from him in an obedience ring. That would be some extraordinary generalizing. 
I just don't see that the payoff of doing the cloth thing would be worth the effort (or raised eyebrows you'd get from fellow obedience trainers).


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> I am watching Janice Gunn's proofing DVD and I must say...LOVE IT! So many great ideas. It got me to thinking, what have you seen or heard about in the ring that maybe should be proofed against? My hope with this thread is that we can come up with a lot of real life experiences so that people just starting out may see it and learn.
> 
> I'll start: During sits and downs, a small child was on the other side of the ring gate offering the end dog a bite of her ice cream cone. Fortunately the steward saw what was happening and told the parents to get their kid. So, proofing idea, have someone offer to share a cookie.
> 
> ...


Ilove those DVDs, and have all of them. JG's dog voice is so good that all of my dogs watch too. 

 My dog Tally has only broken a stay once in his life, and that is bc he was closest to the ring gate, and a woman with another golden was shoveling hot dog pieces into her dog, and she dropped one. It rolled a surprisingly far way, close to Tally. He did get up, walk a few steps, and then get ahold of himself and sat again. It was an out of sight stay, so I did not see it myself. 

The funny thing is that he has held his stay through some crazy events that seem much more difficult. Once we had a very elderly judge who leaned on him to catch her balance during the stand for exam stay, and he just braced himself and took it without moving a paw. Another time, we had a differen elderly judge who was not well( dementia of some kind) and she wandered to the steward's table during the down stay in Novice. It was downpour raining. She just didnt come back to release us for so long. She thought she had finished, and everyone was scrambling to politely get her back on task and thinking that there would be complaints to the superintendent. We were there for seven or eight minutes(depending on who you ask- it is like a big fish story). The great thing is that not one dog did break the stay.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

In my obedience club, I am really torn about practicing out of sight stays with the crew bc we don't have an issue with stay and I dont want to create one. One woman likes to remain spying on her irish setter( who has problems with the stay, and the owner is frustrated) while the rest of us go all the way into a side room. She runs in to correct her dog in a huge way, and it just worries Tally and another golden,who both have solid stays and who arent used to that much of a big yelling/scruffing event. In one way, I know it is proofing, but in another way it seems like a negative experience for no reason. I try to tactfully get all the way on the other side of the line, but I am not sure it is that great.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> In my obedience club, I am really torn about practicing out of sight stays with the crew bc we don't have an issue with stay and I dont want to create one. One woman likes to remain spying on her irish setter( who has problems with the stay, and the owner is frustrated) while the rest of us go all the way into a side room. She runs in to correct her dog in a huge way, and it just worries Tally and another golden,who both have solid stays and who arent used to that much of a big yelling/scruffing event. In one way, I know it is proofing, but in another way it seems like a negative experience for no reason. I try to tactfully get all the way on the other side of the line, but I am not sure it is that great.


Ugg. I would avoid that like the plague. It's not worth the potential side effects to your dog to practice with someone like that.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks for the advice. I don't want to be rude and rock the boat with the people bc I like the group so much, but I don't want to put my dog in the bad position even more. This is the third week the setter has been joining us, so I will leave before the stays next week and just protect the dog. I hope the person in charge of the night will intervene.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

There is an outstanding trainer in this area who seems to have a very successful solution to this problem. Any time someone comes into the line to correct their dog, she goes in and give her dog a treat. 

I do think, however, that the spying on your dog is actually a good thing. Many good trainers are only truly out of sight during a trial. They want to see the _moment_ something goes wrong, not depend on someone else to tell them.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> That is exactly the case in your example. You're asking the dog to perfect the skill of NOT smelling pee-infused squares of cloth at home or in class and apply it to not smelling a living, breathing dog sitting three feet from him in an obedience ring. That would be some extraordinary generalizing.
> I just don't see that the payoff of doing the cloth thing would be worth the effort (or raised eyebrows you'd get from fellow obedience trainers).


I would see it as isolating, not generalizing, but it's ultimately a semantic argument. And I'm not sure it's anything I would bother with, since it's not currently a problem for us. I was just tossing out ideas like everybody else.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Thanks for the advice. I don't want to be rude and rock the boat with the people bc I like the group so much, but I don't want to put my dog in the bad position even more. This is the third week the setter has been joining us, so I will leave before the stays next week and just protect the dog. I hope the person in charge of the night will intervene.


Jill I would ask the instructor for two groups of sits and downs or pull him out. Don't leave him in that situation.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Titan1 said:


> Jill I would ask the instructor for two groups of sits and downs or pull him out. Don't leave him in that situation.


Thanks, I really appreciate the advice. I am one who doesnt like to create conflict, and I think most people are feeling the same way. I will ask the instructor if we can work on stays in two groups. Tally is very clear on his job and good about it, so sometimes I am not sure how great it is to practice it repeatedly anyway(?). We do need to work on our go outs though!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Thanks, I really appreciate the advice. I am one who doesnt like to create conflict, and I think most people are feeling the same way. I will ask the instructor if we can work on stays in two groups. Tally is very clear on his job and good about it, so sometimes I am not sure how great it is to practice it repeatedly anyway(?). We do need to work on our go outs though!


I learned a long time ago to do my own thing. I just gently explain that I need to do what is best for my dog. You do NOT want to create a stressful situation for your S/D's. Most times I will not leave the ring for sits and downs. That way I can watch what is going on.


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