# Breeder Red Flags?



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

When we first started looking for a puppy 5-6 years ago, we met a breeder and my husband noticed some things similar to what you noticed. We felt like it was weird considering the breeder knew we were coming and had time to clean up. We thought, wow, if this is what it looks like when people are visiting I would hate to see it at other times! I certainly don't expect a house to be spotless, since we have golden-coat dust-bunnies that develop within a few hours in our house, but certain things do bother me. We have poop in our yard right now from late yesterday and this morning, but we pick it up daily and if people were coming over it would be picked up. We did not get a puppy from that breeder for that reason. That's my long winded way of saying: if your gut says go elsewhere, go elsewhere. 

I am interested to see if any breeders can chime in on the issue with not meeting the dam. I think it makes sense to let you interact with the puppies separately, but I'm not sure why you weren't able to meet her in another room? I have never bred a litter though so my opinion on that is just from the perspective of a puppy buyer.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

You HAVE TO HAVE confidence in your breeder! If your gut says "No", then look elsewhere. The relationship you have with your breeder will set the tone for your start with your puppy. It's vitally important.

Those circumstances would set off alarm bells for me too.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Oooof, I once visited a breeder that had similar living conditions. I'd look elsewhere personally, call me judgmental if you will!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

You really need more than one visit to make a fair assessment. 

Puppies Poop! A lot!

When they wake from a nap, they pee and poop. When they're active they pee and poop. Before they go down for a nap they pee and poop. When they eat or drink they pee and poop. The puppy area can become a smelly mess a half hour after it was cleaned. Were the puppies clean? Did they stink? 

Some breeders are reluctant to let you see the mother due to her condition at the time the litter is ready to leave. Most people looking for a pet do not have a clue when it comes to the demands a litter puts on a dam. Most are drained, thin and shedding like mad by the time the litter departs. In addition many dams will regurgitate their dinner to feed the pups if they get in close proximity. (Not what you need when you're trying to get momma back her normal physical condition.)


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

what SwampCollie said. 

Plus, many dams have a very hard time being separated from their puppies and the pups and dams NEED to learn to be separated .. and when they catch sight of their puppies may very well plow over anything that stands between their puppies and them and the puppies will get very excited as well. They may well be limited to being together at night only or at night and a few times during the day.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Wasn't part of the issue about not being allowed to meet the mom that she wasn't allowed to meet her _at all_, even without pups present? I dunno, a dear friend who happens to also be a trainer and behaviorist once told me never to get a puppy from a litter where you are not allowed to meet the mom. Her reasons were twofold: first because you want to be able to get a feel for her temperament (since she'll be passing it down to her pups), and second because you want to be sure she's interacting with the puppies appropriately (being that that's a large part of how they are raised up until 8 weeks). 

I would also think that a breeder could easily explain to a potential puppy buyer why the dam's coat might not be in the best shape, that's no big deal.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

When we had our puppy visit last Saturday, we met mom plus the whole doggie family...all in the same area as the puppies. And yes, there was piddling and poohing...it's what puppies do. But nothing was hidden. And mom looked GREAT!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Penny's Mom said:


> When we had our puppy visit last Saturday, we met mom plus the whole doggie family...all in the same area as the puppies. And yes, there was piddling and poohing...it's what puppies do. But nothing was hidden. And mom looked GREAT!


Same here- in fact Mom came and checked out all the puppy people!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Wasn't part of the issue about not being allowed to meet the mom that she wasn't allowed to meet her _at all_, even without pups present? I dunno, a dear friend who happens to also be a trainer and behaviorist once told me never to get a puppy from a litter where you are not allowed to meet the mom. Her reasons were twofold: first because you want to be able to get a feel for her temperament (since she'll be passing it down to her pups), and second because you want to be sure she's interacting with the puppies appropriately (being that that's a large part of how they are raised up until 8 weeks).


Be careful when generalizing. It's easy to make assumptions that are incorrect. The breeder didn't want them to meet the dam "at that time". That is why you should make more than one visit to make a fair evaluation. 

There is a lot of misunderstanding about how a dam raises a litter. Contrary to popular myth on this and other forums, mothers of most retriever litters do not stay with the litter through 8 weeks of age. Small breeds are different. Giant breeds are also different. 

I have been breeding goldens for nearly 40 years and I have yet to meet a dam that would voluntarily stay with a litter 24/7 for 6 weeks let alone 8. Most mothers begin to wean their pups around 5 weeks and are pretty much done with them a week or so later. (Retriever puppies are like little sharks with razer sharp teeth at this point. Momma isn't going to stay in there and get chewed on 24/7.) From that point on they will interact with them as they would any puppy they encounter. 

It is important that the litter interact with patient adult dogs in the 6 to 8 week period but they don't stay together with the adult. The litter stays together and the adults visit, coming and going as they please. The adults serve as role models teaching social behavior.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I understand that since Bear was born in a rescue, our situation may be a little different, but Bear and his siblings were weaned around 5 weeks old. The mother was then adopted out. I saw pictures of her and the puppies together but I never got to meet her personally. The puppies were together until 9 weeks old at which time they ALL went to their forever homes. 

When we visited with the foster home, the inside area was 99% clean, but the outside was a bit of a disaster. The foster family spent all day with the puppies, working with them, socializing them, cleaning up after them, etc. But pee and poo happens when there are so many little bladders running around. 

I do wonder how many "average" owners would understand if a breeder explained why the dam looks ragged and downtrodden. Most new puppy parents, in my experience, look for "good looking" puppies and parents. Just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt, since I've never bought from a breeder. 

I hope for the next addition to our family, that we know the breeders as well as possible. *fingers crossed* But that is a LONG ways down the road.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

I didn't mean to suggest that the mother of the litter be in some sort of forced confinement with the pups until the day they go home, just that I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to get to meet her and at least let her stroll around in the general vicinity of the pups. As an example, the breeder I am getting my puppy from frequently posts videos of the pups in a large penned off area full of toys, and mom is often outside the pen walking around the perimeter just keeping an eye on things. These are pups that are in the 6-7 week age range.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It seems like you have that little voice telling you no. Listening to intuition is such a good idea, and I agree with the poster who said you have to have trust in your breeder. I can't think of a good reason you can't meet mom, and it should be possible to get clean and organized for puppy buyers to visit.

Over the years I have visited so very many breeders, and they have run the gamut of conditions and situations. It is a really hard problem to run a great breeding program while keeping numbers way down enough to have all pet house dogs. 

I have definitely seen this crowding and crating often in breeders with excellent reputations, and been troubled by it while also sort of understanding the conundrum of trying to keep house dogs, but also own enough goldens to create an influential breeding program. 

The bottom line is that it is sad if dogs spend 3/4th or 5/6ths of their lives crated, and that is where many people think think a beautifully run kennel can actually be better for dogs. Some other breeders arrive at the solution of "foster" or co owning homes in which the dog lives with its own family but comes back to be bred in an attempt to give the dog the best chance at a family while keeping it to breed. This is a hot topic too. 

The ideal is often presented as the hobby breeder who has a litter every two or three years. However, in years past and even now too, there are legendary kennels breeding 4 to 10 litters a year, and keeping only the best of those puppies to breed. There are also lots of lesser high volume breeders who do make a living breeding goldens, and always seem to have two or three litters going, producing 50-150 pups a year once you stop and add it up. The best of these will show a few of their dogs, advertise some litters and hide some litters, and mainly do their clearances. 

Even living in a big dog training center with 5,000 square feet for the dogs and 11 acres, having five dogs to love& train is a big committment for one person; I can easily see how you could get up in numbers quickly. If I had kept a Lush puppy, I would be at six dogs. It is not hard to envision getting to ten over the years without a strict limit in one's head. It would become difficult to manage if you had one edgy dog, or a fragile old dog and two rough-housing youngsters etc. The end result might be having to put in kennels or crating like that breeder you visited. 

This is exactly why being a serious breeder is out of reach for me- none of my dogs are crated, all have their house manners and CGCs, all sleep on the bed and are a fun entourage from room to room. I wonder what the number of dogs is at which I couldnt do that anymore? For me, I knew keeping Mystic plus a Lush puppy was too much, and neither youngster would get my full attention, so I let one go to a great home. I would have loved to keep both.

I totally understand how someone could end up with too many wonderful dogs, and end up overwhelmed. I can also see a breeder actually having terrific husbandry skills and happy dog be misunderstood by a puppy buyer, and I hope that is the case here.
It is too hard to judge in the abstract.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Brave said:


> I do wonder how many "average" owners would understand if a breeder explained why the dam looks ragged and downtrodden. Most new puppy parents, in my experience, look for "good looking" puppies and parents. Just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt, since I've never bought from a breeder.


I think this is a valid point but if I were a breeder showing puppies, rather than just not allow people to meet mom, I'd explain before the visit that just like with us women, bitches don't always look their best after they've had a litter of puppies - it's about managing expectations. I looked a fright after I had my son but I've got photographic evidence that I looked like a normal human being once upon a time!


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Ljilly28 said:


> This is exactly why being a serious breeder is out of reach for me- none of my dogs are crated, all have their house manners and CGCs, all sleep on the bed and are a fun entourage from room to room. I wonder what the number of dogs is at which I couldnt do that anymore? For me, I knew keeping Mystic plus a Lush puppy was too much, and neither youngster would get my full attention, so I let one go to a great home. I would have loved to keep both.


I guess then that depends how you define "serious" breeder because to me, the situation you are in makes you exactly that!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I have definitely seen this crowding and crating often in breeders with excellent reputations, and been troubled by it while also sort of understanding the conundrum of trying to keep house dogs, but also own enough goldens to create an influential breeding program.


I often think about breeders in the "old days" when almost all kept their dogs, (usually a much higher number of dogs than breeders keep now), in kennel runs. I'm mainly talking about Great Danes, (because those are the kennels I know about). Honey Hollow, Mountdania, Dinro, Meistersinger to name a few. The kennels were beautiful and equipped with both air conditioning and heating. Very elaborate set ups. It was how it was done back then.

A lot of people now balk at breeders that use kennels and consider it a red flag. Personally, I would much rather see dogs in kennels, (_nice_ ones), than crates, if the breeder is going to have the numbers of dogs requiring either/or. IDK, crates just seem way too confining for prolonged periods of time. Crates would be a red flag for me, whereas kennels would not.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

go with your gut....always.....


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## 1stGold13 (Dec 1, 2013)

Just visited a breeder recently and walked out of there very impressed with entire operation and the manner in which the dogs were kept. Your gut is talking to you....listen! If nothing else pay a visit to another breeder and compare, if you're interested the breeder I visited is in Wisconsin, PM for details


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My Towhee's puppies are all now 11 weeks old and off to wonderful homes. Towhee, however, looks pretty bad. Seriously - at the height of nursing her pups she was easily eating upwards to 16 cups of puppy chow a _DAY_ to maintain a semblance of weight.

Her weight is now good for a performance dog ( about 52/54#; light for most companion dogs) but we are going full bore at getting her back in condition for jumping. She has no undercoat and even some of her outer coat is falling out. She cannot be outside in the current cold weather for any length of time since she has no protection. Her coat is rough and lacking in shine. Her feathering is sparse and her legs look way too thin. Having a litter of puppies and nursing them is extremely demanding and I am sure if you were to see her you would think she was under nourished - and she is because nursing 8 healthy puppies is very hard and it takes awhile to recover - both from her hormones going wild and the drains on her body.

And she went into the pregnancy in great shape and is in fairly good shape since she is not completely bald and still has her tail feathering. It is not just about managing expectations. 

Human moms do not look that drained, they just don't. They rarely lose almost all of their hair or look like they are just skin and bones and have skinny legs to boot.



CharlieBear80 said:


> I think this is a valid point but if I were a breeder showing puppies, rather than just not allow people to meet mom, I'd explain before the visit that just like with us women, bitches don't always look their best after they've had a litter of puppies - it's about managing expectations. I looked a fright after I had my son but I've got photographic evidence that I looked like a normal human being once upon a time!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My puppy owners always meet the moms. Moms look awful and I explain why.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Finally, when I asked to meet the mom, she said she was in another room and that she didn't want to bring her into the room because the pups would get too excited. She said she was limiting their interaction with mom because they would be going home soon. Is that common? I know that not letting someone meet mom is a huge red flag, but I just wondered if in the final days before leaving, it is common to keep mom and dogs completely separate. I did tell her that I would want to meet any mom before I buy a dog, and she said absolutely.


Okay... reading through this, my only "huh" moment is the mom was in a different room. 

I understand keeping the moms and pups separate - but don't get why she couldn't have put the puppies back in their pen and brought you over to see the mom. It's an obvious, isn't it? 

If they can't trust you walking around their house, they can't entrust you with the care of one of their puppies.

*** And fwiw - I saw Jacks' mom when she was still nursing 3 week old puppies. And saw her again the following couple weeks and then when I brought him home at 7.5 weeks. I may not have been expecting a show dog in full coat, but what I saw was a healthy looking little girl who loved the world. We picked Jacks' litter primarily based on us falling in love with his mom.  

Bertie - I saw her on my whirlwind visit. She was outside with the other goldens (they have a very nice property) and I saw all them right away when I arrived. She had a full looking reddish coat and as I remember was bounding around with a horse ball in her mouth while she and the others lined up to greet me.  

Both cases, the breeders were only too happy to give us a full tour and let us visit with any dogs we wanted.


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## kath00 (Dec 3, 2013)

We met with our breeder a couple weekends ago and we got to see mom (pups are younger than yours). It helped us tremendously to see her personality, the shape of her face (we like the boxy look) and just general manner with which she handled herself around strangers. It made us much more excited to have the breeder's puppies because of our interaction with mommy. Plus we got to see the pups and see the whole setup (which was VERY clean). She did have 2 or 3 other adult dogs who were gated off in different parts of the home but we actually got to meet each one and say hello to them. I got a very good feeling about the whole situation even though I did realize that for practical purposes, she had to gate off her unneutered male and 2 other females from the area the pups were in... Also the pen of the pups was totally clean. We were there for a good 2 hours and the pups did not poop. So I am not sure they are continually pooping and it's impossible to clean it up.

I agree with others. Follow your gut.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

From what I understand, this was not a litter the OP was looking at getting a puppy from, just a litter that happened to be on the ground. I can see not wanting to disturb the "peace" for every visitor that comes over.


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

I visited with Thor and his brothers and sisters every weekend for several hours. They pooped, obviously but it was pretty clean. They kept up nicely with the clean up job. It didn't stink either. 


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Addendum 

My breeders do allow visitors and you get to meet the mothers and other dogs. I was responding to the comment that made it seem the mothers may just not look their best. Up until 5 or 7 weeks the mothers look pretty good then they look awful. As an example of the demands on the dam's body, the final 2 weeks of pregnancy and 6 weeks of nursing (including some for the puppies meals once weaning started), Towhee with her 8 puppies went through 168 pounds of a mixture of Purina ProPlan Puppy (3 34# bags) and Fromm's Puppy food(2 33# bag). 

Visitors after 4 or 5 weeks are good and you should get to see the dam, but I would not expect immaculate conditions nor a dam looking great - you can certainly see the dam's structure and bone and how happy they are. But if you are a casual visitor and do not intend to purchase a pup, why would you want to get both the puppies and the dam overly excited? Meet the dam separate from the pups since you will get a better feel for their personalities that way. With mama not tending her babies and pups not trying to nurse and ignoring all else? 

But if your gut says not to go with the breeder --- don't. If you were uncomfortable look elsewhere.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

wow - my gut will say look elsewhere, the first red flag is that many dogs crated in the house. I would never get a pup from someone who has that many dogs. The second red flag is the mother. I have met Rose's mom on several occasions, she was always around the house or outside, she always looked great and had a wonderful disposition.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I often wonder how reputable breeders are supposed to meet all the expectations people have. If they breed a litter and don't keep a puppy, people wonder why they are breeding at all. If they breed a litter and co-own a puppy, they are accused of stashing dogs in homes to breed later. If they breed a litter and keep the best puppy then they are criticized for having too many dogs. If they place dogs that don't turn out or place older dogs then they are criticized for that as well. It seems like even the most reputable breeders can't please everyone. 

I think the common theme from this thread is go with your gut. You have to be comfortable with the breeder you choose. And every breeder isn't right for every puppy buyer. 



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## pb2b (Nov 8, 2013)

Thanks everyone this feedback. It is very helpful especially learning the info about moms after 7 weeks. This is exactly why I asked because I didn't want to dismiss this immediately without more info. I have never visited a breeder before so I had nothing to compare it to.

We will be visiting a couple more breeders before we make our final decision. 

I do think this breeder cares about her dogs. Her dogs were all very confident and happy, which I think is a good sign. It was also helpful for me to see a couple older puppies because it showed us what a VERY excited 6 month old is like  I think we will be buying lots of tennis balls. Ha.

The snow in Chicago is making me so excited for a dog. I won't be playing with one this winter but I hope next year for fur angels in the snow.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> It seems like even the most reputable breeders can't please everyone.


This is true for pretty much all of life. And why it is important to focus on your specific goals/wants and to also go with your gut. I think it is actually a good thing, just imagine if there was that ONE perfect breeder for everyone, SO many people would be disappointed because there wouldn't be enough pups to go around!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I often wonder how reputable breeders are supposed to meet all the expectations people have. If they breed a litter and don't keep a puppy, people wonder why they are breeding at all. If they breed a litter and co-own a puppy, they are accused of stashing dogs in homes to breed later. If they breed a litter and keep the best puppy then they are criticized for having too many dogs. If they place dogs that don't turn out or place older dogs then they are criticized for that as well. It seems like even the most reputable breeders can't please everyone.
> 
> I think the common theme from this thread is go with your gut. You have to be comfortable with the breeder you choose. And every breeder isn't right for every puppy buyer.
> 
> ...


If a breeder has too many dogs that he/she cannot train them for proper behavior inside his/her own house therefore they stay crated how can that be a reputable breeder? Doesn't that show this person does not have enough time to train even basic commands? 

My assumption is based on this phrase: "She has a lot of dogs and keeps most of them crated in the house. When the weather is nice, they spend the day outside. However, when it's very cold, they are in their crates. It seems as though she lets a couple out at a time. When I asked if she normally lets them roam the house, she said that she had too many to do so. So I think she rotates throughout the day."


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I like potential puppy buyers to see the Mum before the puppies are born and then all puppy buyers can visit weekly once the puppies are over 2 weeks old. I have had as many as 8 dogs and my dogs are never crated (except for one very naughty one year old at the moment who will wee in the house overnight unless she is crated). If puppy buyers come every week they can see the puppies develop and also see the Mum then when she looks dreadful when the puppies are 5 to weeks old(which they nearly always do) they also see her condition improve greatly once the puppies are weaned. That way I get to know the puppy buyers much better as well. Annef


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> If a breeder has too many dogs that he/she cannot train them for proper behavior inside his/her own house therefore they stay crated how can that be a reputable breeder? Doesn't that show this person does not have enough time to train even basic commands?
> 
> My assumption is based on this phrase: "She has a lot of dogs and keeps most of them crated in the house. When the weather is nice, they spend the day outside. However, when it's very cold, they are in their crates. It seems as though she lets a couple out at a time. When I asked if she normally lets them roam the house, she said that she had too many to do so. So I think she rotates throughout the day."


I guess I didn't read that much into the statement or assume the reasoning was for behavior issues/lack of training of basic commands. The OP just said that there were too many to have roaming the house at once. I don't see a problem with rotating dogs inside and outside, personally, if that's what works for the breeder. 

A breeder friend once told me that the number of dogs that was "too much" for her depended more on the individual dogs than the number of dogs. She had less issues with 6 at one point than she did with 3 later. One of those 3 had a penchant for eating things, so she had to constantly keep an eye on him, although he was very sweet and well behaved otherwise. That didn't make this breeder a sketchy greeder, she just had a boy who liked to eat things.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

As a puppy buyer I would look at the breeder's dogs behavior inside and out. That shows their train-ability. To me, personally that is more important than the health history (and please do not interpret that the health history is of no importance, it is just not as predictable as some may think IMHO). 
If a dog likes to eat things you don't resolve the problem by just crating the dog and the rest of them. You resolve it by training the dog. But I guess that also means dedicating the time for that and if you have too many dogs to handle you will not have that time.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Not to derail this thread, but the breeder I'm referring to has very well behaved dogs but they could not break this particular dog of his habit. They consulted with behaviorists and trainers to resolve it, but it was very difficult to break him of it. They did not simply crate all 3 dogs (or even crate him) but supervised him unless he was contained. My point was less about the crating and more about the number of dogs with this particular breeder. Her statement was that this particular dog made having 3 dogs more challenging than a time when they had 6. I found it interesting.

And, this further illustrates that every breeder is not right for every person


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I would hope that your friend did not use the "troublemaker" boy in their breeding program.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

They did not.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> If a dog likes to eat things you don't resolve the problem by just crating the dog and the rest of them. You resolve it by training the dog. But I guess that also means dedicating the time for that and if you have too many dogs to handle you will not have that time.


If only every case were that simple. I lost a 3 year old dog to an obstruction while on the table, his second time on the table for the same thing. I wish I thought of training him not to eat non-food items.

What works for one, will NOT work for all.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

It sounds to me like this breeder is overwhelmed with too many dogs and a setup that doesn't work for what he/ she trying to do. I'm wondering if they are also working another job full time? If yes it can get to be way too much, dealing with a litter, the constant cleanup as the puppies get older, buyers, visitors -- stress!! I can't imagine not letting a potential buyer see the mom on a visit unless things are a little out of control. And the facility should be reasonably clean, constant puppy poop not withstanding. To accommodate a larger number of dogs and that higher level of breeding and do it properly I think you must invest some serious bucks in a facility - a heated indoor kennel with runs, that sort of thing. I admire people who make a living breeding and do it right. It's a big commitment and a lot of hard work -- and not for me! I have heard the term "serious hobby breeder" and that's what I try to do - at most one litter per year. The license plate on my car is golden3 - and I try to stick to three (ok, up to four occasionally...) But that doesn't produce that many puppies so I am happy that larger, quality breeders fill the gap. I'm thinking that this breeder is not one of those quality breeders.


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## pb2b (Nov 8, 2013)

I agree that the setup didn't seem ideal - at least the indoors one. 

However, she did demonstrate some basic training with one of her older puppies and two others are going to shows this weekend. 

I will be visiting another very large breeder and a very small hobby breeder soon. It will be interesting to see how they vary.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think that's your best bet. Look around until you click with somebody and their breeding program. It will be a much more open and enjoyable experience that way.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Conquerergold said:


> If only every case were that simple. I lost a 3 year old dog to an obstruction while on the table, his second time on the table for the same thing. I wish I thought of training him not to eat non-food items.
> 
> What works for one, will NOT work for all.


I see from your website in your signature that you are a breeder (I thought that advertising was not allowed on this forum - I may be wrong). It all comes down to - why was the dog allowed to make it on the table in the first place, for the SECOND time. 
To the OP, ask about what other things does the breeder do besides show dogs. We recently adopted a 4 year old Flat coated retriever who had 5 points toward her CH but frankly no training at all. Turned out she was crated for hours as well and suffered bad separation anxiety. Even after 5 months in our home I can not completely trust her around the house. Rose, on another hand, by 6 months had complete run of the house.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> It all comes down to - why was the dog allowed to make it on the table in the first place, for the SECOND time.


Wow!

The dog was on the surgical table to remove a rock, for the second time, the dog died on the surgical table. The first time he was under a year, the second time over three.

Dogs will be dogs, which can be a hard pill to swallow. 

I truly hope your dogs never exhibit any kind of behaviours (such as obsessive rock eating) that could cause harm to themselves. I also hope you do get to meet a dog that does have obsessive compulsions, so your mind can be opened and maybe see dogs aren't as black and white as you seem to think they are.

I don't disagree that training can help a good portion of behavioural cases, some dogs are wired differently, unfortunately.


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## gldnboys (Mar 15, 2012)

Rob, I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry about your dog.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> I see from your website in your signature that you are a breeder (I thought that advertising was not allowed on this forum - I may be wrong). It all comes down to - why was the dog allowed to make it on the table in the first place, for the SECOND time.


Seriously? I can't even think of a response to that.

And I really don't see a Golden Retriever that likes to swallow stuff as a reason to remove them as breeding potential.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> I see from your website in your signature that you are a breeder (I thought that advertising was not allowed on this forum - I may be wrong). It all comes down to - why was the dog allowed to make it on the table in the first place, for the SECOND time.
> To the OP, ask about what other things does the breeder do besides show dogs. We recently adopted a 4 year old Flat coated retriever who had 5 points toward her CH but frankly no training at all. Turned out she was crated for hours as well and suffered bad separation anxiety. Even after 5 months in our home I can not completely trust her around the house. Rose, on another hand, by 6 months had complete run of the house.


Um... that's kind of harsh. By "On the table," I believe that poster was referring to the operating table. She didn't specify what it was that the dog had eaten to become obstructed... or how the dog had obtained the item. Bottom line is it doesn't really matter... it's happened to most dog owners a time or two... I know it's happened to me, though thankfully never to the extent that one of my dogs needed surgery. 

I have a dog with a knack for getting into things. At 3 years old, he is still crated when I am not home (he's perfectly trustworthy when I'm home because he's literally glued to my side... on the couch or in bed). It's just his way and, frankly, I don't know if I'll ever be able to fully trust him. I've had him since he was 4 months old. He's received the same level and type of training as my older dog (who, granted, got into a few things in his puppy days... but has been trustworthy since reaching maturity). Every dog is different. Is there really a benefit to throwing blame at Conquerergold for the death of her own dog? It just seems like a low blow to me. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

gldnboys said:


> Rob, I just wanted to say that I'm so sorry about your dog.


Thank you very much! Not a day goes by that I don't think of him, he was so young and such a goof (typical boy). However, he had that one obsession with rocks, and no matter what we did we couldn't break him of it.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Rob, sorry for your loss. I had to have an obstruction removed from a 8 month old Min Pin one of the scariest things I have had to face short of when I had to let him go in November at age 15. 
The longer you are in dogs the more you experience and if you are open, you learn more. Sometimes you learn in joy, sometimes in pain, sometimes in the everyday.


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## gldnboys (Mar 15, 2012)

Actually, reading about some of the expectations that people have of breeders and their dogs, I sure am glad that I'm not a breeder myself! I sure am glad that there are so many wonderful people out there who are willing to do the job, though - otherwise I wouldn't have had the opportunity to share my life with so many wonderful Goldens. 

And really, considering the expectations that a lot of people have for the breeding dogs themselves, it's amazing that there are even any dogs left to breed. Of course we need to make sure the "big four" clearances are in place, and consider any other issues that might be in the line, look at longevity, COD, etc. Then there's temperament - not only the sweet, kind nature that we've all come to expect from Goldens, but also brains, working ability, biddability, stability of temperament.... The list goes on.

All of these things are certainly reasonable to expect, and anyone doing their reasearch would be wise to verify that everything is in place. But when it comes down to weeding out any dog that has any type of physical issue, or exhibits any type of unusual behaviour whatsoever.... Well, if everyone did that, we'd be looking at a very small gene pool, and consequently, very tightly linebred dogs.

And really, we all want our breeders to be honest. Anyone can claim their dogs are perfect (and many BYBs do just that), but how many dogs really and truly are? I think it's important to look at the big picture, with respect to prospective breeders as well as their dogs.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> Seriously? I can't even think of a response to that.
> 
> And I really don't see a Golden Retriever that likes to swallow stuff as a reason to remove them as breeding potential.


So a dog's behavior and train-ability(or lack of it) should have nothing to do with breeding practices?


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## Shellbug (Nov 14, 2013)

Conquerergold said:


> Thank you very much! Not a day goes by that I don't think of him, he was so young and such a goof (typical boy). However, he had that one obsession with rocks, and no matter what we did we couldn't break him of it.


I'm sorry about your dog 
You said typical boy being such a goof. I find this to be very true 


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## Roushbabe (Feb 20, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> So a dog's behavior and train-ability(or lack of it) should have nothing to do with breeding practices?


There are a lot of nicer and respectful ways of bringing this point up then the way you did by not being sensitive at all about losing a dog. You do realize the beloved young dog died? Do you even know how long ago it's been for the owner? I hope you take a minute and think of your own dog and read below what you said. To not derail this thread, I hope we just all realize that it's the new year and lets keep peace in our forums and think of others before we speak. :crossfing This is a very good thread going for a lot of perspective puppy buyers to read, whether they are guests or actual members. I would hate for them to stop reading over a bickering match. This will be my only post about this. :wave:



Claudia M said:


> I see from your website in your signature that you are a breeder (I thought that advertising was not allowed on this forum - I may be wrong). It all comes down to - why was the dog allowed to make it on the table in the first place, for the SECOND time.
> .


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> So a dog's behavior and train-ability(or lack of it) should have nothing to do with breeding practices?


Right there is the issue that many have pointed on in this thread. 

One has to go by their gut, and try to make reasonable sense of all of the advice given.

For myself, I do things the way I feel they should be done (and by this, I mean what works for me, they may not work for others, and that is OK). I am a 100% open book with my dogs and breeding program, again, that is what works for me. Since you looked at my website I assume that you took note of the pages discussing the health of dogs I have bred, the good the bad and the ugly. I will also assume you took note of the public clearance information and how all 9 health checks are submitted to a public database (OFA) for recording sakes (I could get hit by a bus tomorrow, I want all the information I can make public to stay public), and I assume you also noticed dogs are actively competing in multiple venues. This is what works for me, I would never push my way of doing things onto someone else. However, I would obviously not be the breeder for you as I had a dog die during surgery to remove a foreign body, which in your eyes reflects negatively on my breeding practises. That too, is a-ok! One has to find what works for them, both when purchasing a companion and when breeding dogs.

Cheers
Rob


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

it is not a bickering match - it is an excuse for the breeder who has too many dogs and does not work or train them properly to produce more dogs while crating the ones they cannot or do not have the time to train. If a BYB breeder did that, everyone (including myself) would be up in arms. 

If I went into a breeder's house and he/she had dogs crated because he/she cannot control them around visitors I would walk out immediately. I would not even look at the puppies as I would want to get them all including the adult ones out of that house. 

I love my dogs by spending time with them, training them and finding their own pace of learning and their own degree of train ability. That is how I view my relationship with my dogs. 
I feel sorry for the dog who lost it's life. We all make mistakes and from the first post it seemed that the dog got onto the table in the house, which was only clarified in the later post that it was a rock and it was the operating table. 
The website itself states of how a golden is not for everyone. There is no "me" time when you own a golden. And I have been an advocate of no fenced in yards as it gives the owner a false sense of security thus allowing the dogs outside with no supervision. After all a golden wants to be outside with you not by itself. I have seen way too many people allow their dogs outside (with a visible or invisible fence) and end up with an injured, dead or lost dog.
Have I been perfect in training my dog? NO. Have I made mistakes? YES. I have admitted to them and did not expect to be cuddled but I wanted to share them for others not to repeat them.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Conquerergold said:


> Right there is the issue that many have pointed on in this thread.
> 
> One has to go by their gut, and try to make reasonable sense of all of the advice given.
> 
> ...


Yes - I have noted, after further reading of your website that you do all the clearances and not just what is required by the GRCA. To me, personally the DNA testing is more important than the hip and elbow (since while it is good to have does not guarantee a non-dysplatic dog). *I do applaud you for that as many of the even reputable breeders do not do the Optigen testing.* I have done it on my golden for my own knowledge as I do not plan to breed her.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> it is not a bickering match - it is an excuse for the breeder who has too many dogs and does not work or train them properly to produce more dogs while crating the ones they cannot or do not have the time to train.


And you know all of this from a few sentences made by one person? 

I will be the first to admit that I am very tough on breeders who lack clearances. That is something that is very black and white, with out needing to visit someone's set-up.

Care and management of dogs is something else. There are certainly many opinions on care and housing. It is not a one size fits all. 

My honest opinion is that crating dogs is not a sign of a bad owner/breeder, neither is having large number of dogs live at large in the house, neither is having a large or small scale kennel facility. They are just different and require appropriate management and care. Which I won't know until I see it.

I am sure there are breeder's housing situation I would not feel comfortable running myself, just as I am sure there are those who would find fault with how I manage my dogs. I just won't make broad generalizations based on so little information especially from an internet source.

All I truly know is that the OP was not comfortable with their experience and they should trust their gut. Another person visiting might have a completely different reaction to this breeder's housing and care.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

a puppy learns social behavior by interacting with other adult dogs. The OP stated that the adult dogs were crated in the house. And how can the puppy learn social behaviors from dogs that stay crated when a visitor comes in? 
I only separated my dog with a pet gate (as I do not use crates) when she couldn't be trusted with a visitor. 
So are we now discrediting what the OP stated because there were just a few sentences and observations? Are we not allowed to voice an opinion of breeders with too many crated dogs other than stating go with your gut?


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> a puppy learns social behavior by interacting with other adult dogs. The OP stated that the adult dogs were crated in the house. And how can the puppy learn social behaviors from dogs that stay crated when a visitor comes in?


A puppy learns social behaviour by interacting with the dam (some dams will want nothing to do with their puppies once weaning is complete, others will 'grin and bear it' when it comes to puppies with teeth...neither way is more beneficial over the other), but they get the majority of their social behaviour skills from one another (bite inhibition, social body language etc., is all learned from littermates, not from other older dogs).

Rob


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

At this point I will stop feeding the monster.:wiggle:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

LJack said:


> The longer you are in dogs the more you experience and if you are open, you learn more. Sometimes you learn in joy, sometimes in pain, sometimes in the everyday.


I love this quotation. Experienced dog people allow for complexity and grey area, and I love how Ljack says it that they have learned with in joy at times and in pain at times, and in the every day. People with a pet have a different perspective than a longtime, experienced breeder like Rob. Knowing how to be a good pet owner doesnt mean knowing how to be a good breeder. Such a well-written comment by Ljack.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My mentor kept her dogs in kennel runs and rotated adult dogs in thru the house... There is a difference between being housed in indoor/outdoor runs vs being in a crate except for when the dog goes outside. That makes me very sad. We have one crate set up and have seven Goldens in the house. I joke that I have free range Goldens as they have run of the downstairs and the family room furniture... I do not have any outdoor kennels. Technically, I have Invisible Fence, but the only dog that wears a collar is the same one who sleeps in the crate, the youngest dog. We live in the middle of my in laws 68 acres... The dogs are never out unless we are home. This is the situation that works for me.

My whelping box is at the entry way to my dining room. It is next to my kitchen, in my open concept house. I sleep with my pups on a Coleman camp bed until the pups are any where from 3 to 5 weeks old. Some of my mother dogs never leave their pups, others are over with motherhood sooner rather than later. My Cookie never weaned her pups and attended to her grand kids as well. She was an amazing momma dog. I don't think in her lifetime that Inever heard her growl at anything... Cookie's son, George from her first litter would climb into the whelping box with her second litter. He would lay down and let the pups bite him and he would gently play bitey face with them.

To the OP, go with your gut. If a situation does not feel right, move on. There will be a breeder out there that houses the dogs the way you like and raises the dogs the way you like...


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Ljilly28 said:


> I love this quotation. Experienced dog people allow for complexity and grey area, and I love how Ljack says it that they have learned with in joy at times and in pain at times, and in the every day. People with a pet have a different perspective than a longtime, experienced breeder like Rob. Knowing how to be a good pet owner doesnt mean knowing how to be a good breeder. Such a well-written comment by Ljack.


This is one of the reasons I so enjoy GRF, getting their perspective and living vicariously through their breedings and raising puppies has been amazing for me. It is also a reminder, as with many forums that I chat on, to not take the words written too literal or written in concrete. Heck, I know I can have wild fingers sometimes, and picking apart an exact quote from a comment quickly written doesn't help anyone or anything here.

Personally I want my pup raised as a pet- meaning in a home from dogs that get to live in a home. If I were looking for a different type of dog (competition, field, hunt, etc) I may feel otherwise and be open to a wider range of facilities. But even our first breeder, whom I love like crazy, had an awesome kennel (it was actually a house) that they used to rotate dogs around including coming in their house, like Sally's Mom mentioned. I didn't mind that at all, the dogs were house pets often enough, and most importantly they all got regular exercise, training, and time out in the field. They were obedience, show, and hunt test dogs. Pearl came from a very small show breeder, they only had her mom left and all their dogs were pets. This is contrasted with the breeder I recently "rescued" an adult dog from, where there were 12+ dogs in the yard, with small runs/yards and living in sheds and dog houses. They were never house pets, and they didn't "do" anything with them. All they served was to be a business of breeding dogs for income. I do not like that kind of operation even aside from the fact that they do not follow the GRCA COE. However it was still much better than a puppy mill. The place was clean, but it broke my heart. 

So you do have to decide what you are comfortable with. It is OK to not want to go one direction or another for your personal reasons and preferences, and it doesn't necessarily have to mean that the one you didn't choose is "bad". I hope you have gotten some help from this thread.

Conquergold I am so sorry to hear about your lost baby. I now have my first rock hound, and hate to hear stories such as yours. Thankfully it doesn't seem to be a problem except for the stray rock carried into my office. She seems to like to find them, and carry them like a big stick. But it is something I watch like a hawk as much as I can. Silly Pearly knucklehead....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As far as training a dog to not eat something it should not... Not so black and white...I work in a business where we see the things that do not pass... I gave a pup from my Tiki to one of my techs... Also gave littermate to LuckyPenny and that pup is Luna... My tech sees the things that do not pass and was hyper vigilant when her pup ate something. Consequently, every time something went into his mouth, she pulled it out... Ultimately he learned to swallow things faster... He ate a dead squirrel, etc... I took him to see the stud dog owners...he was running in their training area chasing a foam ball the size of a tennis ball... Then suddenly, he started to try to swallow the ball. It took two of us to pull the ball out...I kept him overnight to show him in UKC and he ate a dish glove which he vomited overnight... Then finally he ate the male owner's sock. Male owner is a big boy with big feet.,, sock obstructed and he had surgery... I believe in this situation that the owner trained the dog to eat things quickly.... 

My Tiki loved iris leaves and the rhizomes...this lead to a toxicity in her liver.. So she wore a basket muzzle for at least one year... 

Not so black and white


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Sally I am guilty of the same as your tech. I have taught Rose to guard what she was not supposed to have by taking it away too quickly. However I did not give her the chance to do it the second time. That behavior had to be changed pronto. It turned into trying to swallow the items immediately which meant more supervision on my part. Luckily with her retriever instincts we were able to make her retrieve it for us and she is now happy to bring the items to us for either trade or play. 
So to me, yes it is black and white - I have taught my pup a bad behavior which could have resulted in her injury or even worse, death. While each pup/dog is an individual we the humans shape their behaviors based on their individuality. We the humans have domesticated them and further brought them into this world and therefore are responsible for them. I do not expect to be excused or coddled for what I did. I was wrong and responsible for her bad behavior.
While I wanted another dog we did not adopt the second dog until I was confident that I can manage two. The second dog had her issues herself and while in the long run it will be good for both of my girls to have a third, that will not happen until I am confident to be able to manage more. 
Darcy was rehomed by the breeder and recently went by the breeder's house (it was the first time). She has 4 flat coats (one mix flat coat/border collie rescue). For the ones who do not know, flat coats take much longer to mature than golden retrievers, they are called the Peter Pan of the retrievers. None of them were crated, all were very well behaved and it was quite enlightening to me to see what a trained flat coat behaves like and what to aspire towards with Darcy. 
When she took Darcy back from the previous owner she did not intend to re-home her. But fights started between Darcy and her mom and Darcy was also coming into heat. I asked her if she was willing to allow me to keep Darcy thru her heat and also see how Rose and Darcy get along and while trying to help Darcy to also help the peace between the other 4. It was not safe for Darcy nrt for the other dogs to have all of them together. Darcy was crated for continuous hours by the previous owner because she could not manage a flat coat and could not manage the other dogs she has. 
So, breeder or not a breeder, in my opinion one should not have more dogs than what they can manage. A crate is not management. Training is management. 
I was against crates before, seeing how the continuous use of the crate has destroyed Darcy I am even more against them.


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## pb2b (Nov 8, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the insights and thank you to the breeders. This has been very helpful and that's why I posted this. I didn't want to immediately dismiss her as bad because I had never visited a breeder before. 

Ultimately, I don't think this is the breeder for us, but I don't think that makes her bad - just not the right fit.

I'm sorry to those who lost their dogs to obstructions. I can't imagine how sad that would be.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

The OP has requested this thread be closed.


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