# I need help with a puppy



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I think you might be going too fast. It's a super common problem in training. You train a new thing and then push the dog farther or faster than they are actually ready for. I see this a lot in my own dogs re: pop ups. My trainer tells us all the time that you can train for duration or distance but never both at the same time. So duration that dog is down but you are still right there next to them vs stepping away from the dog and coming back to treat. IMO its easier to train duration THEN distance (b/c just by the fact you are further away it's going to take you LONGER to reward them). 

For me, I correct when they break. It's not even like an aversive. Just return the dog to the position and start again. Thsi is a great video on teaching stays. 
The BEST and FASTEST way to teach STAY - stay training, stay fun! - YouTube


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## jomiel (Feb 15, 2019)

How old is your puppy? When Tomo was very young, it was either go go go time or sleepy nap time. It could be that he's just too young and doesn't have the attention span to do training for more than a few things at a time, or to be able to delay gratification at all.

For down stays, try rewarding him by dropping the treat on the mat between his feet. This way he'll have to look down as he eats the treat. Then drop a treat again while he's still chewing, and do this several times so he's used to having his head in a lower position as he's eating his treats off the mat. You can then try to space out the treats and keep it random (1 sec, 3 sec, 1 sec, etc).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Howler said:


> The problem is I cannot get him to stay in any position for any length of time. 'Down' causes him to dive onto his belly with a thump, but if I want him to stay there he is quickly up again to complain that he has not received a reward.


Sit on the floor next to your pup and work closer to his level right now. All training should really be happening at that level right now. That will help his focus + keep him from popping up.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Megora said:


> Sit on the floor next to your pup and work closer to his level right now. All training should really be happening at that level right now. That will help his focus + keep him from popping up.


That is not possible, unfortunately. He is maintaining a growth of about +1kg for each week of life, so that makes him roughly 13kg. He can already stretch to take things careless left at the edge of our dining room table. He is also lightning fast. I need to protect my spectacles from him and he snatches them from my face if I sit down and take my eyes off him. The only way I can work with him is standing up; and I type this with one lens chipped by sharp puppy teeth and one arm of my spectacles missing!

One spectacle arm missing is useful though because it means I can pick him up and expose the side of my face where the arm is missing - it's a bit harder for him to grab something that is not there.

Anyway, he is going to be a big GR and I need to crack his training ASAP 



jomiel said:


> For down stays, try rewarding him by dropping the treat on the mat between his feet. This way he'll have to look down as he eats the treat. Then drop a treat again while he's still chewing, and do this several times so he's used to having his head in a lower position as he's eating his treats off the mat. You can then try to space out the treats and keep it random (1 sec, 3 sec, 1 sec, etc).


I have been trying that from the outset. He either sucks the food out of the air, or out of my hand, with a great snorting sound. I discovered that he actually is sucking (inhaling the food) when I tried placing it between his paws because I watch the morsels float out from my hand. While it is funny, it means there is little delay between food dropping and him being ready for the next treat, and he rarely looks down. The nearest we have come is I hold his food in a fist, I put my fist between his paws, open and the food floats up. Often though the food is blown and bounces and then he is off..

My trainer said use only pea sized treats, but maybe he needs something bigger and chewier to give the process time?


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Howler said:


> I need to protect my spectacles from him (he has grabbed them a few times) and the only way I can do that is by standing up.


Bop him in the nose, tell him no, then redirect him into a sit. If he's never corrected when he does an unwanted behavior how do you plan on teaching him that behavior is unwanted?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If he is that wild, then put a collar and leash on while you are working. Again - sit on the floor while working with him. Put the spectacles away if it makes you feel better, but I would not be allowing my dogs to be snapping at something on my face - that's asking for injury. You keep a left hand on the collar or leash to maintain control and calm. Right hand is your guide hand and lures him down to the floor and rewards him gradually (let him nibble at a treat in your hand).

Down position is submissive for dogs. IF you are standing over them it can be stressful and uncomfortable for them - that's why your dog is fighting the position so much and popping up. That's why I recommend sitting on the floor next to him and work closely with him at his level. You will be more successful this way.

As he is more successful - you will be able to work from a standing position and can start building distance when giving the down command.

30 pounds - he's still pretty small.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Brave said:


> Bop him in the nose, tell him no, then redirect him into a sit. If he's never corrected when he does an unwanted behavior how do you plan on teaching him that behavior is unwanted?


This I also did. First, our dog trainer explained that 'no' is not a command; that dogs cannot generalise in the way that humans do, so a word like 'no' will become confusing and meaningless unless we use it for one specific object.

Bopping him on the nose has no positive effect. I have tried every part of his nose, hitting it with various amounts of force, and with various numbers of fingers. I have hit his snout hard enough for it produce a distinctive clonk sound like a percussion instrument, and doing that only causes him to growl and bite deeper. The only thing I have not tried is punching his nose with the intent of causing injury.

If he is teething then we can give him a chew, but that is always short term distraction. If he is playing then we can get out of the deadlock by picking him up (causes him to drop things) but he is already too heavy for my wife to lift and at the rate he is growing he will soon be heavy for me as well.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Megora said:


> If he is that wild, then put a collar and leash on while you are working.


He always wears a collar. I sometimes use that as a last resort; to pull him away from my screaming wife and that happens if he catches her hair in his mouth.



Megora said:


> Again - sit on the floor while working with him. Put the spectacles away if it makes you feel better, but *I would not be allowing my dogs to be snapping at something on my face - that's asking for injury*. You keep a left hand on the collar or leash to maintain control and calm. Right hand is your guide hand and lures him down to the floor and rewards him gradually (let him nibble at a treat in your hand).


I will try what you have said, but first I need to find a treat that he can nibble and not inhale. I was told by the trainer not to use jerky, but why not?

For clarity, his aggression is towards clothing such as socks and he does not snap at the face. He considers what he is going to do, and then he goes for items that create a commotion. One good example is me being in a meeting with colleagues, sat on a couch with my laptop on my lap and my headset on my head; Murphy was sat at my feet and everything is fine!

In an imperceptible space of time, my ears felt cooler, my laptop shifted slightly, and my colleagues were put on speaker as I shouted "*****!*". I was then explaining to my colleagues that my headset had been taken into my garden.

He had stretched, grabbed the ear cup off the side of my head, run with the headset, and my laptop shifted when the USB cable was pulled out. Maybe in his mind he solved my work problem for me?

More likely it was attention seeking and not aggression, which is understandable, and I can also become bored on work calls. I sympathise because I remember being a tot and being bored _out of my mind_ when waiting for adults to stop talking, but we have digressed. The immediate issue is getting him to stay put and wait for his reward.

P.S. My work does not permit Bluetooth headsets; the security on our computers is too locked down to support anything invented in the last 20 years and my puppy has a choice of cables so since that event I have needed to work in a separate room. 4 hour meetings and 12 hour days are not uncommon for me, so we have tried various toys and slow feeders etc.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Megora said:


> ... sit on the floor ... Put the spectacles away ...


😭

I tried being on the floor at his level, holding food in my clenched hand and I did not see his puppy paws reach at my face. I cannot say what actually happened because my spectacles were off, but the groomer warned me that his claws are too thin to make blunt and I now have a long scratch across my face.

Spectacles on and sitting on a chair might be the only way to go.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think I have observed contradictory advice.

Fact 1: Labs/Retrievers are easily overstimulated by food.
Advice: Use lower value treats.
Fact 2: Labs/Retrievers have high drive/persistence.
Advice: Distract them with something else such as a toy.
We had already him trained from a standing position and he goes through the motions but will not patiently wait for his rewards. Just now tried the complete opposite of all the above advice: Expose him to the best food, and no distractions!

I started by cooking delicious chunks of succulent beef (£5 from a supermarket) and I donned a pair of trucker leather gloves (£5 on Amazon) that I had previously bought to deal with this puppy. I showed Murphy the beef in my protected hand, held both hands together, and teased his food-orientated head senseless.

There was growling, snarling, biting, chewing, scratching, jumping. I repeated "Murphy, No" (ignoring the trainer's advice) and allowed him to really go for it to. My aim was to face that overstimulated high drive behaviour head on, and I hoped the poor puppy's cognitive capacity would be sufficient for him to overcome his instincts. I was also trying to associate the word "No" with meaning "Futile wasted effort".

When he finally stopped and looked away, I said "Murphy, Down" and he dropped. He already knew how to drop so there was no surprise here.

I then lowered my protected hands to release the food and each time he swiped, scratched, snapped, lifted his body or did anything that was not the desired outcome I withdrew my hands and returned to "Murphy, No". In the end he earned about 10 chunks of lean cooked beef in a _more-or-less_ organised manner, although I am hoping he is calmer next time.

I'll try again later today and report back on how much he remembers.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Howler said:


> First, our dog trainer explained that 'no' is not a command; that dogs cannot generalize in the way that humans do, so a word like 'no' will become confusing and meaningless unless we use it for one specific object.


In general, NO by itself is pointless because you are right, it does not tell the dog WHAT you want. However, if you're using NO or Try Again to communicate that the dog hasn't found what you are looking for but to try again, it can have merit. Molly hasn't been taught 'try again' but she knows from hours of interruptions and redirection that NO or UhUh means to stop and she usually will come to me and check in. This took many many many hours and lots of training. The point is to interrupt what they are doing that is unwanted, redirect them into doing something you DO WANT and then rewarding them for the wanted behavior. 
Here is a video from a trainer I love that illustrates using a command as an interruption: 



Here's a video from that same trainer that helps illustrate training handling skills and to help train away from the mouthing: 



Here's one about training to not pull on clothes and hair: 






Howler said:


> Bopping him on the nose has no positive effect. I have tried every part of his nose, hitting it with various amounts of force, and with various numbers of fingers. I have hit his snout hard enough for it produce a distinctive clonk sound like a percussion instrument, and doing that only causes him to growl and bite deeper. The only thing I have not tried is punching his nose with the intent of causing injury.


The bop is meant as an interruption not as an aversive. If bops don't work then find what works. A bop on the nose? Redirects her attention. Spraying her in the face with water? Redirects her attention (and often starts zoomies but this is a great prompt when I'm working on impulse control and also super great when she is doing something she values highly that I want her to stop --- like rough housing with her sister). 

It is common to roll lips under teeth and apply pressure so the puppy is essentially biting themselves. And I have triggered a gag reflex to get my hand out of Molly's mouth sometimes (you just slide a finger along the tongue until she gags and opens her mouth and you get your hand back. This I consider a +Punishment (introducing something she doesn't want to decrease the unwanted behavior). Similar examples of +Punishment is raising your knee when the dog jumps on you so they take the knee to their chest. Putting tinfoil or mouse traps on counters to spook them when they counter surf, etc. But no real HARM is done to the dog (of course there are +only trainers who disagree but that is another topic). 

You might want to read more on the four quadrants of operant conditioning in dog training here: Operant Conditioning, using positive vs. negative dog training methods correctly



Howler said:


> He always wears a collar. I sometimes use that as a last resort; to pull him away from my screaming wife and that happens if he catches her hair in his mouth.


Why are you letting it get to the point that it's a last resort? Megora was suggesting having a leash and collar on him at all times he is out because it gives you more control. Puppy is lunging toward Mom? Step on the LEASH. Check out this video example: 






Howler said:


> One good example is me being in a meeting with colleagues, sat on a couch with my laptop on my lap and my headset on my head; Murphy was sat at my feet and everything is fine!
> 
> In an imperceptible space of time, my ears felt cooler, my laptop shifted slightly, and my colleagues were put on speaker as I shouted "*****!*". I was then explaining to my colleagues that my headset had been taken into my garden.


Why is he out and about when you are working? Knowing that he has zero to little impulse control and tends to grab things? If you're working and can't supervise, put him in a crate and let him nap there where he is safe and cannot get into mischief. 


Howler said:


> I started by cooking delicious chunks of succulent beef (£5 from a supermarket) and I donned a pair of trucker leather gloves (£5 on Amazon) that I had previously bought to deal with this puppy. I showed Murphy the beef in my protected hand, held both hands together, and teased his food-orientated head senseless.
> 
> There was growling, snarling, biting, chewing, scratching, jumping. I repeated "Murphy, No" (ignoring the trainer's advice) and allowed him to really go for it to. My aim was to face that overstimulated high drive behaviour head on, and I hoped the poor puppy's cognitive capacity would be sufficient for him to overcome his instincts. I was also trying to associate the word "No" with meaning "Futile wasted effort".
> 
> ...


Firstly, you're doing it wrong in this example. He should have been rewarded AS SOON AS HE STOPPED AND LOOKED AWAY. You are asking him two different things (thing#1 - leave the treat alone in my hand; thing#2 - lay down) that he doesn't know and is getting confused. 

When you are teaching leave it, you usually have to wait out an extinction burst. Check out this video: 




Are you using a clicker or any other MARKER? We use a loud "YES" as a marker cause we don't always have a clicker handy. 

Here's some videos re: working on taking treats politely:
How To Teach Your Dog To Take Treats Gently
Take Treats NICELY and GENTLY - Puppy Dog Training
How to Stop PUPPY Biting When Taking Treats - PUPPY Dog Training Video

Dog training requires good timing, a good marker, and CONSISTENCY. I don't think you have any of these based on past posts. I know you said you were going to virtual dog training in a group type setting but there is only so much assistance that can be had from virtual help (be it zoom classes, or videos, or forums). I honestly think you need hands on training in person. You need someone to watch how you train your dog and correct YOU because how you're doing it is not working. And it's not because the puppy is dumb or deaf or stubborn or dominant. 

If you'd like further help, I'd recommend video taping your training sessions so we can see what you are talking about and can maybe give more constructive criticism based on what we see you doing.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

I am working through the material you posted, but these points need an immediate response:


Brave said:


> Why are you letting it get to the point that it's a last resort?


Before answering this, lets look at what an escalation actually looks like.

Murphy knows he must not chew my feet. Likewise, Murphy knows he can chew his Himalayan cheese. What he does is chew a little, move a little, chew a little, move a little.. (that is the escalation).The escalation appears angelic and innocent and it can run for a long time. He will be chewing his cheese at my feet like a picture perfect well behaved puppy, at which point he replaces his Himalayan cheese with my big toe.

My error was assuming that his treatment of my toe is accidental! We now know that Murphy will chew merrily on something that he is allowed to chew, and then _without warning_ redirect his chewing to something he is not allowed to chew.



Brave said:


> Firstly, you're doing it wrong in this example. He should have been rewarded AS SOON AS HE STOPPED AND LOOKED AWAY. You are asking him two different things (thing#1 - leave the treat alone in my hand; thing#2 - lay down) that he doesn't know and is getting confused.


We actually did try that because it was a puppy lesson. As instructed we instantly rewarded him for looking away, and the result was that Murphy learned to _expect_ a treat in exchange for the _action _of looking away (not the same as giving up). The problem with that is that he seemed to interpret his action of glancing at something else as being his command for 'release the treat'. We realised it had gone awry when he displayed the behaviour as a sub-second flick, and then became frustrated with us for not releasing the treat.

It is similar to his sit/down/stand, he will do these actions quickly as though they are sign-language. To anthropomorphise Murphy, "_I did sit. You owe me a sit treat!_"



Brave said:


> Here's one about training to not pull on clothes and hair:


That is a good video but there is a key difference between the example and our observations. Murphy does not go for clothes or hair that are actively moving, or if he does then that is not our pain point. He goes for these things when they are not moving, such as feet when those feet are still, or my wife's hair when she is sat still. It is as though he is sneaking up on the opportunity to pull on something he knows he should not pull, and I refer back to my description of an escalation.

Our trainer asked me to demonstrate during a Zoom call: the instruction was to get Murphy to grab a tug toy. I wriggled it, wobbled it, bobbed it, pulled it, and Murphy lived up to his name by not reacting at all. It seems to me he does not want the physical action of tugging; he wants to do things that make people give him attention. Could this be happening because we do not give him enough daily attention?

The 'calm' training was also in the puppy course and we could get Murphy into the pose, but we failed to get him to stay in that pose without rapid fire treats. The instructor said to gradually slow the treats, but he did not cooperate with our delays. Please see my Opening Post where I describe the problem:

I cannot get him to stay in any position for any length of time.
I have never seen him rest! How do I get him to stay if he never relaxes?
You seem to have made an assumption that Murphy jumps a lot, but we actually trained that out of him within the first 12 hours of him moving in, and we did that by withholding his meals until he sits - he has no incentive to jump. When I say he does not stay still I do not mean that his behaviour is constantly bad; I mean he does not lie still with his head on a paw..

I anticipate you will tell me to exercise him more. He is high energy; how should I determine when he has had enough exercise?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Howler said:


> ......
> 
> When he finally stopped and looked away, .....


That split second when he stopped and looked away, THAT is what you needed to reward. 

Each split second of stopping gets rewarded, then the stop is two split seconds and gets rewarded, then 3 split seconds gets rewarded. That will eventually teach him when he stops being frantic, and gives you a pause, he gets the reward. You can build on that pause. 

Have you taught him a "leave it" command? If not, start there. Look it up on trainers Youtube channels.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

And if he is so food focused that he can't handle it knowing the food is there but he's not getting it, you may need to consider training without treats and use praise instead.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Howler said:


> ....
> 
> We actually did try that because it was a puppy lesson. As instructed we instantly rewarded him for looking away, and the result was that Murphy learned to _expect_ a treat in exchange for the _action _of looking away (not the same as giving up). The problem with that is that he seemed to interpret his action of glancing at something else as being his command for 'release the treat'. We realised it had gone awry when he displayed the behaviour as a sub-second flick, and then became frustrated with us for not releasing the treat.
> ....


Then you hold the treat completely enclosed in your hand until he does back off and calm down. Wait for the reaction you want, then give the treat.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Howler said:


> He always wears a collar. I sometimes use that as a last resort; to pull him away from my screaming wife and that happens if he catches her hair in his mouth.


OK - I hope you won't be offended by this, but I was taking a sip of my pop while reading here - and was spitting my pop laughing when I read this. 

He certainly sounds like he's a big handful for you guys. I have always had med long hair and have never had a dog grab it before (my nieces or nephews - yes, they've done that and refused to let go too as babies). I can't imagine where your wife was when the dog grabbed the hair.... 




> I will try what you have said, but first I need to find a treat that he can nibble and not inhale. I was told by the trainer not to use jerky, but why not?


Jerky isn't advisable because the dog has to stop and really work at chewing and eating that. 

For training purposes, you want to be able to let the dog nibble-and-go while training. Training, want to do quick reps + keep training sessions short. You don't always want to be stopping and waiting for doglet to finish up before you work on the next thing. 

For a baby pup, I usually use a piece of bread - because it's not likely to mess up a pup's stomach (processed treats you buy from stores are full of salt and using something like cheese you have to be careful because some dogs have issues with dairy). A piece of bread can be torn into several pieces and dog gets a pinched off piece as a reward each time. This way, you might only use 1 piece of bread per training session. 

One of the things I suggest you work on with your dog is training him to use his tongue/lips when getting treats vs chomping. That's probably a very important thing to work on - since he sounds like he's very oral. 

Working on "soft mouth" - you want a treat in your closed hand, and pup only gets you to open your hand if he nuzzles/licks - and hand opens and pup gets to nom the treat. 

You work on this in a day or so (several training sessions a day) and it will help. 


Training sessions - multiple, etc.... are very important with a mouthy and very busy puppy. 

It sounds like he's very active and sassy around the house... and that means you need to put more training session in throughout the day to work on odds and ends. Keep it calm, relaxed (yourself) and be patient. 




> P.S. My work does not permit Bluetooth headsets; the security on our computers is too locked down to support anything invented in the last 20 years and my puppy has a choice of cables so since that event I have needed to work in a separate room. 4 hour meetings and 12 hour days are not uncommon for me, so we have tried various toys and slow feeders etc.


I've not had to do 4 hour meetings necessarily, but long days - yep. Been there. And multiple meetings + with more emphasis on Teams these days, I'm interacting regularly with coworkers on Teams getting through projects, etc. 

With my dogs - they just sleep while I work. 

Usually same room I'm in. 

When I can, I usually head outside and let them run around for a while - while I work out there in the garden area (thank goodness for cell phones you can use as hotspots!) - at least now that it's nice out. 

I will send the dogs out maybe 3-4 times during a work day - with me taking that time to go out with them to keep an eye on them. 

I don't suppose all dogs are that active or need that amount of activity - but for mine it helps so they aren't going right up to my computer and panting loudly for my coworkers to hear (LOL). 

Basically - it sounds like you are very frustrated. I do recommend taking it easy and finding time to shake your head and laugh. Pup will grow out the worst. The training stuff does help - it just needs some patience.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Megora said:


> I was taking a sip of my pop while reading here - and was spitting my pop laughing when I read this.


Thank you. We have done the soft mouthing but inconsistently. My wife drops any treats without contact, and I have been focussed on getting the treats to him quickly to reward the right action, so we need to look at that again.



Megora said:


> Basically - it sounds like you are very frustrated


More like worried because he is growing faster than we are training him


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

mylissyk said:


> Then you hold the treat completely enclosed in your hand until he does back off and calm down. Wait for the reaction you want, then give the treat.


He has correctly concluded what each command means, and he becomes aggressive if the reward does not follow, hence why I have repurposed the gloves for feeding treats!


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

mylissyk said:


> Then you hold the treat completely enclosed in your hand until he does back off and calm down. Wait for the reaction you want, then give the treat.


This is actually what we try and struggle with.

Murphy's attempts to take a treat are in consistently in this order:

Lips.
Licking.
Pushing (Nose).
Sucking/Slurping.
Paw (warning #1).
Scratch, which can really hurt because his claws are too thin to make blunt.
Growl (warning #2).
Firm mouthing like a warning-bite, which can really hurt.
Bark (warning #3) sometimes accompanied with a whine, face-palm, or other sign of frustration.
Grab, twist and pull (this where gloves come in).
Stop and re-think (that is not the same as giving up).
He is not snappy (his teeth don't chomp), and he is open to a correction if there is a command, but he can also conclude that I am wrong! The problem is that if I want to add a delay to his treat then he will prematurely conclude that I am wrong..


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

mylissyk said:


> you may need to consider training without treats and use praise instead.


Follow this advice and all these issues are eliminated.


Howler said:


> This is actually what we try and struggle with.
> 
> Murphy's attempts to take a treat are in consistently in this order:
> 
> ...


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Breaking news: We tried this just a moment ago, @SRW @mylissyk

Murphy and I went through those motions; 'sit' then praise, 'stand' then praise, 'down' then praise, and so on.. (btw, he is not good at 'stand' and he tries other positions first). The motions were all impressive (to me) although Murphy looked discontent and his tail stopped wagging. It ended when Murphy decided to collect the debt of treats.

I have a new tooth puncture on the back of my hand. We also discovered that a frustrated Murphy can jump high enough to eyeball me (I'm 5' 9") and that is very scary because (1) I have truly annoyed him, and (2) the stair barrier is a psychological barrier and not a physical one.

I normally say 'good boy' in a higher voice and give him a chest rub with the tips of my fingers and that didn't cut it today. What kind of praise should I be giving?


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Howler said:


> It ended when Murphy decided to collect the debt of treats.


There was no debt of treats and Murphy needs to know that.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

SRW said:


> There was no debt of treats and Murphy needs to know that.


His action now is to ignore voice.

We went through this with him a few weeks back when we were using lower value treats such as praise. The last time we did this he tricked us into believing he is deaf, and random other dog walkers also tried but could get no response to sound. We took him to the vet, who also could not get a response! However, the vet suggested puppies can go through a stubborn phase, and that is when we tried higher value treats (low and behold his hearing restored).

This experience is why I said he is stubborn in the opening post.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Howler said:


> However, the vet suggested puppies can go through a stubborn phase, and that is when we tried higher value treats (low and behold his hearing restored).


In doing this you have rewarded him for being stubborn. 
You need to take charge, be in control. The dog has to learn that if he doesn't want to be a team player there is no play at all.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

SRW said:


> The dog has to learn that if he doesn't want to be a team player there is no play at all.


So we ignore him back until he surrenders for a praise?


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Howler said:


> So we ignore him back until he surrenders for a praise?


I can only speculate. I think the first thing I would do is try to build some enthusiasm, make training fun. Training should be the highlite of your dogs day. Go to a different location, even if it is just the back yard instead of the front. If he likes retrieving it can be used as a reward for obedience.
Go for walks on lead while you work on heeling. Obviously heeling properly is great but it also forces the dog to focus on and follow you. I do heeling drills often on trial weekends just as a reminder that I am in charge. 
Praise, like treats and corrections, can be overused making it less effective. As much as possible I strive to make success in training the most rewarding thing for my dog. This is actually the one thing that gets easier in advanced levels of training. 
With obedience you have to make it fun and mix in fun things, especially with younger dogs.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

SRW said:


> In doing this you have rewarded him for being stubborn.
> You need to take charge, be in control. The dog has to learn that if he doesn't want to be a team player there is no play at all.


This. Absolutely this.

A couple of observations. First, I think you may have misunderstood how to use treats for training, and may have inadvertently reinforced the behaviours you are trying to get rid of. Second, right now, you are not training this puppy, he is training you. Third, you may be trying to do "too much too soon".

The first point: If you are going to use rewards in your training, it's vital to know how to use them. The key term here is _reward_; not bribe, not lure, not an automatic response to a behaviour. You should not have the reward in your hand when training. It should be out of sight in a bag or in a container on the kitchen counter or on a table. If you keep the reward in your hand, the pup is going to focus on your hand instead of on the learning experience. In other words, the treat will become a distraction and a goal in and of itself. The behaviours that the pup must produce to get the treat become secondary. Because he's obviously a more assertive kind of dog, he's now training you to open your hand more often, so he can have treats more often.

When using treats, the idea is to reward compliance, and once you have compliance, to reward only perfect compliance (immediate sit, longer stay, etc.), and then to phase out the treat for that particular command, and to treat only occasionally. Otherwise the dog will only ever comply in exchange for treats. It's a common mistake. You think your dog has learned commands, but he hasn't. He's giving you behaviours to get treats. It's not the same thing. The fact that he "inhales" treats is an example.

I would suggest that you break this habit by shifting to clicker training, where the click signals the good behaviour and the reward comes afterwards. Inherent in clicker training is the fact that the dog waits for the reward. If you decide to try a clicker, timing is vital. Part of your problem with the treats has obviously been your timing. Maybe find an experienced clicker trainer to show you what to do.

Second, SRW is right, your puppy has taken charge completely, and while you think you're training him, he's actually training you. He's pretty much doing what he wants. Why are you allowing him to be such a tyrant? He's a puppy - manage him accordingly. For example, I work from home, sometimes long hours. In the early months, my pups are with me in the office, but in a crate. This teaches them to settle while I'm working. Sometimes it's not easy for them. My last golden learned quickly and could be trusted outside the crate within a few weeks but my current guy had to be crated in the office for several months because he would chew wires and drag things off shelves if left to his own devices. When I eventually released him from the crate, I tethered him to my waist with a long leash until I was sure he would settle on his bed and not look for trouble. If your pup is harassing you or your wife for attention, or grabbing glasses off faces, he shouldn't be free to do that. Freedom is earned. Right now, he's being a brat because he can. He's taken charge and you're allowing him to do these things.

Third, the "too much too soon" thing. This is a _puppy_. He needs to learn that humans are fun, and that training is fun. He also has a limited capacity to concentrate and learn. It's much better to have five two-minute training sessions than one ten-minute session. And you should be focusing on one thing in a session, not twelve things. You should also adjust your expectations. Yes, he's going to be a big dog. Yes, it's important to instill basic commands while he's younger. But you should be focusing on the things you need most with a big dog: loose-leash walking (i.e. walking on leash without pulling), a rock-solid recall, a "drop it" or "leave it" command, sit, sit when greeting people, and good behaviour when being examined by a vet or having his nails clipped. Right now you seem to be using a "scattershot" approach. It takes months to develop a reliable command. Once you've trained it in your kitchen or in class, you then have to train it in your back yard, in the street and in a busy place such as a superstore parking lot. Dogs don't generalize. Just because they can obey "sit" in the kitchen, it doesn't mean they can obey it when you're out and about. My advice for this would be to focus on what you need. Your puppy may have developed his hyperactive behaviours from your scattershot approach. In any case, he clearly hasn't learned to focus on a task. I personally think you're expecting too much of him at his age. And I am someone who expects a lot of her dogs.

Best of luck, hope you find a solution that works.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

SRW said:


> If he likes retrieving it can be used as a reward for obedience.


He has properly retrieved only once, maybe twice, but it's not yet a thing for him. As he still follows me around I find simpler games of Fetch easier to initiate, but two Fetches is his limit - after that his interest wanes. Murphy loves tug, but sadly that game turns him wild and we had a thread in the Behaviour Forum dedicated to erasing his memory of it.

Today has been the hardest on me in weeks because, after removing food treats, Murphy resorted to the tugging behaviour we had battled to eradicate. He is now stronger and gave me actual bruises; putting a stop to it is easier said than done because he loves rough play.

He used to be OK in his crate, and he still uses it as a kitchen when travelling, but after one bad experience of getting his jaw trapped between the crate bars we have been unable to close the door without causing him psychological torment.



Brave said:


> If bops don't work then find what works.


I had previously tried water spray, but doing that only escalated his _game_ to the next level of excitement.

During today's antics I resorted to spraying Garrick's on myself to stop him grabbing me. In the commotion I _accidentally_ misted Murphy's face, and hopefully it not worse than his nose, but in either case the sound of a shaking spray bottle has since been enough to make him stop and look up. Time will tell if that is a lasting effect.

Murphy's history: I picked the biggest puppy in the litter because I wanted good health. That fact aside, everyone finds him adorable and everyone protects him. So far his whole life he has been a winner with no contest, and I speculate the effect is that he has had no fear of man or beast.

Maybe he now has a healthy fear of pepper spray?! 😱


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

To answer my own question: No, shaking a bottle had no effect this morning. A spray of Garrick's is the only _non-food_ thing I have found that makes him back off.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Howler said:


> He has correctly concluded what each command means, and he becomes aggressive if the reward does not follow, hence why I have repurposed the gloves for feeding treats!


What do you mean by "aggressive"? 

He has not learned that he doesn't get the treat unless he is calm, or he would be calm and wait for the treat. Keep working on this with the treat closed in your hand, DON'T give it to him unless he stops mouthing your hand and is still, even if that is only for a second or two.

I noted a couple of times you said his nails are not trimmed smooth. Take him to a groomer and have them DREMEL his nails. They most definitely can be filed smooth and be less of a danger. 

Also, keep a leash on him and when he starts to jump and step on it so it is short enough he can't jump up.

Look up "Nothing in Life is Free" training, and also go to Youtube and search for "It's your Choice" training. Both of those methods will help the dog learn to choose the correct behavior. 

I also think you need to find a different trainer. The one you are using has not given you the tools or skills to train THIS puppy. They are all different and need different approaches.

How old is this puppy?


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

mylissyk said:


> He has not learned that he doesn't get the treat unless he is calm, or he would be calm and wait for the treat. Keep working on this with the treat closed in your hand, DON'T give it to him unless he stops mouthing your hand and is still, even if that is only for a second or two.


It has nothing to do with treats. If there is a treat then he will focus on doing whatever is asked to get that treat - he follows commands, and he is very determined to do the right thing. The problem is when there are no treats, or he is just not hungry.

When I first arrive downstairs he attacks my ankles, vigorously tugging on my socks/trousers and scratching my feet with teeth and claws. If I were to anthropomorphise the action it would be, "_I am not letting you get away this time!_"

When I sit down he lies down next to me, or on me. I described already how he will gentle and slowly move into a comfortable position to start chewing on my feet (or hands). He basically treats me the same way he treats his toys.



mylissyk said:


> I noted a couple of times you said his nails are not trimmed smooth. Take him to a groomer and have them DREMEL his nails. They most definitely can be filed smooth and be less of a danger.


Both qualified vet and professional groomer tried and failed. Both tell me his nails are too fine and too short; they filed them off so they are technically blunt, but because the nails are so thin they are still sharp.


mylissyk said:


> Also, keep a leash on him and when he starts to jump and step on it so it is short enough he can't jump up.


Its not like that because he is not a jumper; as in he does not jump for the sake of jumping. We taught him to stay on the ground in his first hours with us by withholding his dinner until he stopped jumping. It only took a few dinners to create a behaviour of keeping all paws planted firmly on the floor.

He will, however, jump once (and only once) to grab something with a precision strike - he won't jump for the sake of it.


mylissyk said:


> How old is this puppy?


13 weeks.


mylissyk said:


> I also think you need to find a different trainer.


Yes. They started with a game of tug at 8 weeks, supposedly the game is a treat, but it planted that particular reward in his oldest memories. The only command I had taught him in the hours ahead of his first lesson was 'Sit'.

We have now stopped following that syllabus and stopped playing tug with him, but from his side it has been tug-tug-tug his whole life with us because its one of the first things he was taught to do and we had not taught any command to stop a tug (sitting isn't incompatible with tugging). To start with tug is, I believe, a really bad syllabus and it has ruined what should have been enjoyable weeks.

I tried the video lessons suggested in this thread, but they are not working because they assume the dog is being distracted by dangling things. He is not being distracted by dangling things because he is very focussed on getting a tug - he is specifically hunting for a hand or foot to tug on (something that will pull back) and he will look through the dangling things to focus on what he wants.

I tried the exact lesson in the video. Murphy paused and weighed up the value of food treat vs the clothing. I put the food to his face but it failed to distract him from what he really wants; in his mind the preferred treat is the opportunity to tug, but the clothes are not what he is focussed on. The lesson failed because two options are presented to the puppy, and the puppy already knows there is a third option!

Unfortunately he figured out at 8 weeks that a dangling toy is a poor proxy for the hand that controls it. I remember vividly how he dropped the toy and leaped for my hand during the 'puppy' lesson!

After his 2nd lesson we decided this tug idea was a disaster, not least because he was hanging off my arm and leg during the lesson! He has been gradually improving, but it's not all gone, and it has been heartache with me sat in full leathers for my own protection while I try to coax him to discover calmer activities.

Food is the best countermeasure but not in the usual way - as long as he is hungry, he won't tug, and he learns new commands when he is hungry. He learned 'Drop' in the context of playing 'Fetch', and it is not working to drop me.

*WARNING TO ALL: DO NOT TEACH TUG TO A 8 WEEK OLD PUPPY!*


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Howler said:


> It has nothing to do with treats. If there is a treat then he will focus on doing whatever is asked to get that treat - he follows commands, and he is very determined to do the right thing. The problem is when there are no treats!


If you have access, I highly recommend you audit these classes from Fenzi that start June 1st. 
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - FE420: Bye, Bye Cookie: Hello Delayed Reinforcement! 
Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - BH300: Worked Up! Understand, assess, and soothe arousal in sport dogs

It's $65/class and you keep it forever (access is limited to 1 year but you can pay an annual pass if you don't want to take a class to renew access). If you want to submit homework virtually, you'll want to enroll as a Gold member (versus the audit at bronze) but this is more expensive. I think it would be worth it for you. Even if you cannot enact it with your pup right right now, the knowledge and lectures and watching other students will build your knowledge base and make you a better trainer as you integrate what you've learned into how you train your pup.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Howler said:


> It has nothing to do with treats. If there is a treat then he will focus on doing whatever is asked to get that treat - he follows commands, and he is very determined to do the right thing. The problem is when there are no treats, or he is just not hungry.
> 
> When I first arrive downstairs he attacks my ankles, vigorously tugging on my socks/trousers and scratching my feet with teeth and claws. If I were to anthropomorphise the action it would be, "_I am not letting you get away this time!_"
> 
> ...


I was imagining an 8 to 10 month large puppy menacing you. That would need more direct intervention.

13 weeks old is a BABY. He is doing exactly what a puppy his age is supposed to do. Nothing you describe is wrong, or untrainable. At his age everything you describe is totally normal. I'm not sure what you are expecting at his age, because nothing you say he is doing is unusual or wrong for a 13 week old baby. He is 100% NORMAL. 

Everything you are describing will improve with consistent training, and rewarding him for the right behavior. Case in point, you just said he DID learn to keep his feet on the floor for his meals. So he definitely can learn, you just have to be patient.

Teeth on a 13 week old BABY are razors, nails on a 13 week old BABY are sharp and need to be clipped every few days. That is completely normal for the anatomy of his nails at his age. But you do need to be working on teaching him to allow you to handle his feet and toes. Every day, multiple times a day you need to be touching his feet while giving the best food, peanut butter or yogurt, etc., so he starts to accept feet handling as a good thing. 

Relax, take a breath, he's a baby and doesn't even begin to understand what you want or know how to do everything you expect yet. He will, just be patient, and ACCEPT a puppy is a puppy doing puppy things.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Howler said:


> It has nothing to do with treats. If there is a treat then he will focus on doing whatever is asked to get that treat - he follows commands, and he is very determined to do the right thing. The problem is when there are no treats, or he is just not hungry.
> 
> When I first arrive downstairs he attacks my ankles, vigorously tugging on my socks/trousers and scratching my feet with teeth and claws. If I were to anthropomorphise the action it would be, "_I am not letting you get away this time!_"
> 
> ...


I'm beginning to see the problem. You attempt something and if he doesn't do what you want, you call that a failure. Training a puppy is REPETITION, ad nauseum. You try again, and again, and again, until he learns. You don't decide it's not working and quit.

Honestly, his reaction to you is not, "_I am not letting you get away this time!_"

It's _"I am so happy to see you! Lets play!"_


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Do you have fun with your puppy?


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

mylissyk said:


> Do you have fun with your puppy?


I play with him but it's not actually fun because he is strong enough to cause damage to people and laptops. Many dog walkers are surprised to learn his age and they tell me his paws are huge. He stresses me in public because he charges at random people, to play, but he does not know the boundaries. He actually steals balls during sports games, he picks play fights with big Doberman dogs, he chased one pair of scared joggers off a playing field, he chased one scared adult Cocker Spaniel off the field, he made an old lady scream by nosing her rear, and he made my heart jump when I thought he was about to push a small child into a cold river; thankfully recall worked just in time! He has done all this while still a baby!



mylissyk said:


> Honestly, his reaction to you is not, "_I am not letting you get away this time!_"
> 
> It's _"I am so happy to see you! Lets play!"_


I did not read the responses here until just now. I sacrificed a fair amount of time today to sit with my puppy while he did whatever he wanted, in exchange for simply not being bitten. Each time he bit me I tried to explain to him (using a novel sign language) that biting results in me leaving, and I moved towards my exit, which caused him to cry. I then stopped and returned to the puppy. At the end of the day he seemed content to not bite in exchange for me not leaving. Of course I needed to leave eventually, so then he cried, and then in his tantrum he disconnected the stair barrier from the stairs! 

Eventually we reinstalled the barrier and he cried himself to sleep. Each time I think I've made a breakthrough he reverts to bad behaviour, so I'll probably be mauled come breakfast.



mylissyk said:


> You attempt something and if he doesn't do what you want, you call that a failure.


He knows the commands. He chooses when to follow commands and when to ignore commands.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

ceegee said:


> You think your dog has learned commands, but he hasn't. He's giving you behaviours to get treats. It's not the same thing.


I am unsure what you mean. I am confident he has associated specific sounds with an opportunity to perform specific behaviours. He is unimpressed if there is no treat. When we scaled back rewards he went through a phase of pretending to be completely deaf (not specifically voices but any/all sounds) - fooling us, other dog owners, and our vet. It was the vet who described his symptom as possible stubbornness.


ceegee said:


> Part of your problem with the treats has obviously been your timing.


We realised this from watching kiko and will now train ourselves to say 'yes' before giving a treat.


ceegee said:


> If your pup is harassing you or your wife for attention, or grabbing glasses off faces, he shouldn't be free to do that. Freedom is earned.


His first trainer stated that crating should never be used as punishment?


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Howler said:


> I play with him but it's not actually fun because he is strong enough to cause damage to people and laptops. Many dog walkers are surprised to learn his age and they tell me his paws are huge. He stresses me in public because he charges at random people, to play, but he does not know the boundaries. He actually steals balls during sports games, he picks play fights with big Doberman dogs, he chased one pair of scared joggers off a playing field, he chased one scared adult Cocker Spaniel off the field, he made an old lady scream by nosing her rear, and he made my heart jump when I thought he was about to push a small child into a cold river; thankfully recall worked just in time! He has done all this while still a baby!


Why is he off leash and able? I thought I just read he's a 13 week old puppy? I'm trying to figure out how anyone would be afraid of a 13 week old puppy anyway.



> I did not read the responses here until just now. I sacrificed a fair amount of time today to sit with my puppy while he did whatever he wanted, in exchange for simply not being bitten. Each time he bit me I tried to explain to him (using a novel sign language) that biting results in me leaving, and I moved towards my exit, which caused him to cry. I then stopped and returned to the puppy. At the end of the day he seemed content to not bite in exchange for me not leaving. Of course I needed to leave eventually, so then he cried, and then in his tantrum he disconnected the stair barrier from the stairs!


None of this makes sense to me if you're talking about a young puppy.



> Eventually we reinstalled the barrier and he cried himself to sleep. Each time I think I've made a breakthrough he reverts to bad behaviour, so I'll probably be mauled come breakfast.


He's not being bad. Is it bad for an infant to cry or soil their diaper?




> He knows the commands. He chooses when to follow commands and when to ignore commands.


If I could make this 100% happen by 13 weeks people would be paying me a lot of money to train their dogs.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> Why is he off leash and able?


He needs exercise. He drags his leash because we sometimes need to run after him.


diane0905 said:


> I'm trying to figure out how anyone would be afraid of a 13 week old puppy anyway.


Clearly you have not met Murphy! 












diane0905 said:


> If I could make this 100% happen by 13 weeks people would be paying me a lot of money to train their dogs.


He responds to Sit, Stand, Down, Walk, Fetch, Come, Look, Paw, and his name. I would say most commands are instant, but he sees them as actions not poses, such that bouncing his bottom off the floor counts as a Sit in his mind and he is not relaxing into a pose. He does not respond to Drop, Leave, No, Stop, Ouch, or Help!


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Howler said:


> He needs exercise. He drags his leash because we sometimes need to run after him.
> 
> Clearly you have not met Murphy!
> 
> ...


Murphy is a precious young puppy. We don't come out of the box good to go. Murphy isn't even a teenager yet. Do you have children? I started maturing in my early 30s. lol

If you let Murphy run around jumping all over people, he is learning that lesson well.

As was pointed out, just because he has learned a directive -- like sit for a treat -- doesn't mean he knows the command in all situations. It takes a while and a lot of repetition and proofing to get reliable behavior. If Logan (my Golden) gets a command -- I'll stick with sit -- and he holds the position until released regardless of other dogs, people, deer, or what have you -- that is knowing the command. At this point, he offers an autosit when I stop to talk to people. When he was younger he could be distracted by things like leaves blowing and butterflies.

Anyway, I have not met Murphy, but he sure is a cutie and definitely not an idiot. He is budding potential awaiting to learn.  Goldens are fun puppies and young dogs. You just have to stay on your toes. Make learning fun. teach him to engage. It takes time. Each dog is different. Enjoy!


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> Murphy isn't even a teenager yet.


That worries me!


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Howler said:


> He responds to Sit, Stand, Down, Walk, Fetch, Come, Look, Paw, and his name. I would say most commands are instant, but he sees them as actions not poses, such that bouncing his bottom off the floor counts as a Sit in his mind and he is not relaxing into a pose. He does not respond to Drop, Leave, No, Stop, Ouch, or Help!


I've trained a lot of dogs in my life. My last dog and my current dog both won national agility championships. Because my dogs are my agility partners, I look for confident pups that want to work with their human. Every single thing you have said in this thread suggests to me that Murphy is this type of pup. He's interactive and interested in you, and he's clearly enthusiastic about his training. He seems to have a lot of potential.

But when I read through your posts, he's always described as the "problem". He's stubborn. He doesn't listen. He chooses which commands to obey and which to ignore. He gets aggressive. Etc. I can tell you that in all my years of training dogs, whenever I've encountered difficulties, I've never thought that the dog was the problem. My first reaction has always been: What am I doing wrong? When my current dog was younger, he wasn't showing drive in our agility training. I didn't blame the dog; instead I handed over his training to my daughter and watched, to try and identify where I was going wrong. I quickly realized I was trying to train him in the same way as I'd trained my previous dog, who was very different personality-wise. With her, it was a question of harnessing her natural speed to develop her skills. However, this dog needed me to build his confidence in order to develop speed. I completely changed my approach, and as his confidence grew it was incredible to see how quickly and well he responded. I could have dismissed him as lazy, or unmotivated, or stubborn, but I didn't. He's none of those things. He was never the problem; I was.

With regard to the quote above, from one of your posts, I'm going to say this again: What you have is a 13-week old PUPPY. You're expecting far too much far too soon, and you're making a lot of mistakes in your training that are causing the difficulties you're now experiencing. The dog isn't the problem here.

Your pup sees the commands as actions because you've taught him to see them that way. Your training method has produced this result. My advice: Slow down. Pick one command and train it properly. When rewarding compliance, it's you who decides what "compliance" means. If you reward a "bounce", then you're teaching him that it's what you want. If you don't want it, don't reward it. Reward sits that last two or three seconds. Then those that last five seconds. Then those that last ten seconds.

Dog training isn't an instant thing. You can't say that a 13-week old puppy has been fully "trained" to obey half a dozen commands, because he hasn't. All he's doing right now is producing behaviours that generate treats. He's doing this because of the way you've been using treats in your training.

Again regarding the quote above, pups don't choose which commands they're going to obey and which they're going to ignore. They're not humans - they don't work that way. Dogs obey the commands they've been trained to obey. If Murphy isn't obeying Drop, Leave, No or Stop, it's because you haven't trained him to obey them. Yelling "Stop" isn't training. You have to teach him what it means. And it needs to mean one thing, not a bunch of things. You can't use "Stop" to mean "stop biting me" and "stop chewing the furniture" and "stop chasing people in the park". It doesn't work that way. "Stop" needs to mean one thing only. In your current position, I'd suggest teaching him that it means "stop putting your teeth on human clothing". 

When training my dogs, I don't use "no". I use "ah-ah" to signal a behaviour I don't want, and I immediately follow it up with the command for the behaviour I want instead. So: If the dog jumps up: "ah-ah, sit". The "ah-ah" signals that I don't like the jumping, and the "sit" tells him what I want him to do instead. If the dog grabs something I don't want him to have: "ah-ah, drop it". And so on. You start by teaching the replacement behaviours - there's no point telling a dog to "drop it" if you haven't trained him to comply. "Drop it" is a fairly easy command to teach - you can free-shape it, or you can teach it as part of a game.

You say in one of your posts that your trainer said a crate shouldn't be used as punishment. That's simply not true. Dogs are well able to distinguish between crate time as a punishment and crate time for other reasons. Not only that, but the crate is a management tool. For example, if you're on a Zoom call for work, put the pup in the crate so he doesn't get into trouble. Not only will this allow you to focus on your work, but it will also teach your dog that you're in charge, not him. Right now, he's doing whatever he wants, whenever he wants to. By giving him opportunities to do that, you're effectively teaching him that he's in charge, not you. 

Best of luck, hope you find a solution that works for you.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

ceegee said:


> Yelling "Stop" isn't training. You have to teach him what it means. And it needs to mean one thing, not a bunch of things. You can't use "Stop" to mean "stop biting me" and "stop chewing the furniture" and "stop chasing people in the park". It doesn't work that way. "Stop" needs to mean one thing only. In your current position, I'd suggest teaching him that it means "stop putting your teeth on human clothing".


I agree with 100% of what you've posted. I pulled this quote out b/c I actually taught Lana Stop. For us STOP meant, stop what you're doing, focus on me and come to me. It took about three months to get consistent results but I can use it in a variety of situations (stop barking, stop scratching your face off, stop pushing a bone into my foot, stop pacing, etc) I usually couple it with a redirection command, such as "Stop" Good girl <insert reinforcer to reward successful stop/focus/coming to me> "Settle". Or "Stop" "Let me scratch your face" so then she stops beating her face up and comes to me and I gently rub it and get all the nooks and crannies that she was trying to reach. Though my favorite is when they've jammed a bone against something (usually furniture) and it makes a racket. I used to use STOP but dropped it over time and now all three dogs respond to "find another spot" which means pick up your toy and go to a different spot. Could be 3 feet, could be a different room, could be a different a different couch, etc. 

There are so many things you're dogs learn just living with humans. I lovingly refer to Molly as a demon cause she can be a handful but it's all in jest and I know that when we have problems it's cause of me. If she's picking up inappropriate items, who left it where she could get it? She likes to bring me my shoes. I just thank her and put it up. She brings me trash that's fallen out of the can (thanks to a kitten and no lids). Thank you! Good Job! Smart Puppy! 

When she's over-aroused and back to biting, I praise her for having a toy in her mouth and when she's invested enough I will toss it and when she brings it back we throw a party. If she is past the point of sense, it's 100% ok to put her in the crate to reset. It's not a punishment. It's a break.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Brave said:


> When she's over-aroused and back to biting, I praise her for having a toy in her mouth and when she's invested enough I will toss it and when she brings it back we throw a party. If she is past the point of sense, it's 100% ok to put her in the crate to reset. It's not a punishment. It's a break.


When Murphy is over-aroused I don the thick leather gloves keep a clenched fist with food inside - he goes absolutely wild but burns himself out and then tries a peaceful approach. I know this is the exact opposite of what you are all recommending, but with just a few sessions it seems to have trained Murphy to not go wild in the first place as doing so only wastes his time and energy. It is also very similar to the approach in some kiko videos, with only difference being that kiko videos focus on smaller pups _before_ they develop bad habits!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Howler said:


> I play with him but it's not actually fun because he is strong enough to cause damage to people and laptops. Many dog walkers are surprised to learn his age and they tell me his paws are huge. He stresses me in public because he charges at random people, to play, but he does not know the boundaries. He actually steals balls during sports games, he picks play fights with big Doberman dogs, he chased one pair of scared joggers off a playing field, he chased one scared adult Cocker Spaniel off the field, he made an old lady scream by nosing her rear, and he made my heart jump when I thought he was about to push a small child into a cold river; thankfully recall worked just in time! He has done all this while still a baby!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He does not know the commands, he is a baby, still learning. Honestly, all the things you are complaining about are absolutely normal for a 13 week old puppy. He's not throwing a tantrum, he's just being a puppy. Chasing things that run is PLAY, he is a puppy he's playing, running up to new people is being friendly, not mean, not being a menace. Either you don't understand or you don't accept what a puppy is and how they act.

Please find a training center that has a puppy class and have a long conversation with the trainer without the puppy.

Please read this article:








It's a Puppy, Not a Problem


Left to their own devices, what do puppies like to do?They like to bark, play, run through the house (sometimes with muddy feet), jump on people, put things in their mouths and chew on them, eat tasty foods, explore, sniff things, dig holes in mud and sand and dirt, and a host of other things...




www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com






I feel sorry for this puppy. Have you considered returning him to the breeder? You are not enjoying him, and you don't seem to be making any progress to that improving. Return him now while he is young enough to be rehomed to another family easily.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

mylissyk said:


> Honestly, all the things you are complaining about are absolutely normal for a 13 week old puppy.


It might be physically insignificant for a small puppy to throw a rag doll around, but Murphy is not actually small and he was not limiting his play to toys.

It is absolutely not normal for a puppy to be allowed to injure people. He was drawing our blood and that is not tolerable. Puppies learn fastest at 8 to 16 weeks old, and their lessons at that age are permanent. According to KC approved trainers aggression needs to be dealt with early to stop it being a life problem.



mylissyk said:


> Please find a training center that has a puppy class and have a long conversation with the trainer without the puppy.


I did and their advice set him on the wrong path. He learned Tug at puppy school, which incidentally was not a KC approved school. Learning tug before learning basic commands like Drop/Leave was the root cause of our problems, it set back training many weeks, and I now know is absolutely inappropriate for a puppy under 16 weeks to be taught Tug.

I have trained that out of him now, but not using your methods of letting a puppy do whatever it wants just because its a puppy. We already missed the 8 to 11 week fear imprint period; he had a sheltered comfortable time and emerged fearless. Thankfully we put a stop to him tugging people before he turned 16 weeks.

I do not know how to stop him tugging other dogs and that remains a danger because not all dogs are playful. Tugging the wrong animal, such as police dog or guide dog, might be a problem. I have just realised he has never met a guide dog 



mylissyk said:


> He does not know the commands, he is a baby, still learning.


He is a big boy and needs to be allowed off leash for excercise.

During walks in woodland he meets all types of people and dogs. It is a near-miss when he puts his paws on another dog walker and receives complimentary cuddles. On one such walk Murphy did what you would describe as 'normal' and almost pushed a 2 year old boy into a river! Murph was on his hind legs with his paws in their air ready to land on the boy when the boy's grandma screamed. I shouted "Murphy, Come" and he stopped instantly, did a u-turn and came to me, allowing the grandma to snatch her boy to safety. The poor woman was visibly scared. _Murphy knows the commands _- its just not consistent, which means it is dumb luck that he has not caused an incident, but we would be a worse place if I had not taught him that command.

He steals food at home from the kitchen table, which is a warning that he needs training in that issue. It is going to be a problem if he snatches someone else's lunch from their public picnic table. We cannot allow big puppies to run around doing whatever they want just because they are young; they need to obey commands.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I never said let him do what ever he wants. You seem to think he is deliberately, with forethought and malice, doing things to injure people. He's not. He's a puppy doing what puppies do naturally, and it is on you to teach him the right way to interact with people and other dogs. If he can't be trusted to NOT jump on people or other dogs right now, then it's your responsibility to keep him on a leash and control him. If he is as bad as you say about how he approaches others then don't let him loose to behave that way. He does not need off leash until he can be trusted to behave. If he needs more exercise then you have to find another way to give it to him. You are letting him practice behavior you don't want.

If he jumps on people or other dogs it is absolutely your fault for letting him off leash when you know he will do that. That is not Murphy being bad, that is his owner not being responsible when they know their dog isn't ready to be trusted, and is still learning not to do those things. 

Your attitude in all the myriad of posts has been this is a bad dog, when the reality is that this a puppy who needs to learn. This is an ongoing process. 

I'd really like to know what you expected from a puppy. Did you think he would be well behaved, always calm, never get excited, and follow commands every single time, right away, like an adult dog that has had years of training?

It is absolutely to be expected that he is not consistent, *he is still learning*. He is not an adult dog that has learned impulse control, and whose brain has matured, he is a puppy and can't always have impulse control, because his brain is not developed to that point yet. You don't get to say a dog knows a command until they have executed that command 1000 times without fail. That's consistent, and that takes practice, and maturity. 

You talk about him like he is the size of a Mastiff, when I know for sure a 13 week old Golden Retriever is not the size of a Mastiff. Could you post a current picture of him?

What I wish is that you would reward him for doing the right things, celebrate when he does do right, be happy about what he has learned, and acknowledge he is still learning.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

mylissyk said:


> You talk about him like he is the size of a Mastiff, when I know for sure a 13 week old Golden Retriever is not the size of a Mastiff. Could you post a current picture of him?


Photo in the showcase but no size comes across in a photo. I expect he is approaching 14kg but I have not measured him today.

I'll come back later today. I'm not expecting him to know stuff out of the box


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Just measured Murphy and coincidentally he was exactly 14.0kg this morning. This figure will be slightly higher after lunch.

Granted, that is a small weight for any adult, but as @mylissyk pointed out he does not have adult training. My view is that 14kg is a handful of dog if untrained.

I can report though that today he completed his command drill perfectly (for food), and he allowed himself to be brushed (without biting), which is all good progress. The bad news is that, although he is not tugging, he did have an erection while mouthing my clothes! Blogs suggest erections can be explained by lack of exercise, so I'll be letting him off his leash again today..


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Howler said:


> It is absolutely not normal for a puppy to be allowed to injure people. He was drawing our blood and that is not tolerable. Puppies learn fastest at 8 to 16 weeks old, and their lessons at that age are permanent. According to KC approved trainers aggression needs to be dealt with early to stop it being a life problem.


Again, what you are dealing with is not aggression. You do NOT have an aggressive puppy. You have a mouthy puppy that is a bit too much for your current training capabilities, that is all. As previously explained, golden retrievers explore the world using their mouths - they are _retrievers_, after all. It's a characteristic of the breed. It's a behaviour that's easy to manage if you know what you're doing. It involves teaching bite inhibition - in other words, teaching the pup not to bite down when he puts his teeth on certain things (humans included). I always teach this as soon as the pup comes home at 8 weeks of age.



Howler said:


> He learned Tug at puppy school, which incidentally was not a KC approved school. Learning tug before learning basic commands like Drop/Leave was the root cause of our problems, it set back training many weeks, and I now know is absolutely inappropriate for a puppy under 16 weeks to be taught Tug.


The underlined phrase above is simply not true: it is entirely appropriate for young puppies to learn how to tug. Talk to anyone who competes in dog sports (obedience, agility, frisbee, whatever) and they will all have started playing tug with their pups as soon as they get them. Tug is a great game, but teaching it properly means approaching it backwards: using the tug toy to teach the "drop it" command first, and then incorporating the command into the game from the beginning. A game of tug burns a lot of physical and mental energy in a short time and is an ideal activity for drivey dogs. It also encourages the dog to focus on the owner, and if you use it properly, it's a calming activity for the dog. If your dog is becoming "riled" when you tug, it's because you're not doing it properly. The link below is to a Karen Pryor article on how to teach tug and use it to help your dog to calm down.




__





How to Calm Your Dog by Playing Tug | Karen Pryor Clicker Training







www.clickertraining.com







Howler said:


> During walks in woodland he meets all types of people and dogs. It is a near-miss when he puts his paws on another dog walker and receives complimentary cuddles. On one such walk Murphy did what you would describe as 'normal' and almost pushed a 2 year old boy into a river! Murph was on his hind legs with his paws in their air ready to land on the boy when the boy's grandma screamed. I shouted "Murphy, Come" and he stopped instantly, did a u-turn and came to me, allowing the grandma to snatch her boy to safety. The poor woman was visibly scared. _Murphy knows the commands _- its just not consistent, which means it is dumb luck that he has not caused an incident, but we would be a worse place if I had not taught him that command.
> 
> He steals food at home from the kitchen table, which is a warning that he needs training in that issue. It is going to be a problem if he snatches someone else's lunch from their public picnic table. *We cannot allow big puppies to run around doing whatever they want just because they are young; they need to obey commands*.


I have the most issues with this part of your post. I entirely agree with your last sentence (underlined). Puppies, regardless of size, should not be allowed to run free and do whatever they want. But if you look at your previous paragraph, that is exactly what you're allowing your puppy to do. You're letting him off the leash, essentially to run wild. The fact that he almost injured a child is not his fault; it's yours. You're the one who let him off the leash and allowed him to approach the child in the first place. Lunging at people, jumping up, grabbing their clothes, nipping at other dogs: these are all self-rewarding behaviours. In giving your puppy the chance to engage in these activities - by letting him off the leash in public spaces where other people and dogs are present - you're giving him a chance to learn that it's fun to do these things. A 14-week-old puppy should never, ever be off leash in a public space like this. Not ever. I don't care how well-trained you expect him to be, the fact remains that he's a puppy and he's way too immature to have the level of training and se*lf-control *he would need for this type of freedom. It's irresponsible and dangerous. If your puppy had pushed the child into the river, and the child had drowned, it's not the puppy that people would have held accountable, it's the human being who should have had the puppy under control (on a leash) and didn't.

Dogs, like humans, gain maturity and self-control with age and experience. Puppies need to be managed for their own good, and yours. You will eventually have a dog that can run off-leash, in a year or two, but not if you try to skip life stages with him, and certainly not if you allow him to learn how much fun it can be to knock people down and tear their clothes.

I'm sorry if some of this sounds harsh; I don't mean it to. But it's frustrating to me, as someone who's been training dogs all her life, to hear someone blame a 14-week-old puppy for the human owner's training and management failures, and be upset because the puppy doesn't behave like a mature 5-year-old dog.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

@ceegee - I can only repeat that he was introduced to Tug by a professional trainer, and that trainer taught none of the things you talk of. The syllabus used Tug as a "warm up" before the training session before the puppy knows any commands.

The syllabus did not have a Drop command per-se. What happened with Murphy is that our Tug session started perfectly, according to our trainer, but it then did not stop. The trainer said to just make the arm limp, as this would make him lose interest in the toy - he did lose interest in the toy and instead went for the hand that had stopped moving the toy. The trainer said to just stand up, look away and cross the arms - he tried jumping, but settled on switching from targeting hands to targeting feet. The trainer said reward him for letting go, but he simply did not let go!

The lessons were one hour long. Murphy would _keep tugging for hours! _Each lesson warms up with Tug, so whatever was in the rest of the lesson was missed because once he started Murphy simply would not stop tugging.

Murphy also learned to lose interest in the toy itself. The trainer said to wriggle it in front of him, move it back and forth, and he just ignored all the movements; he just lay still like a cat ready to pounce. The only thing that motivated him to move was a chance to catch the hand that had power over the toy. I tried to prove this to the trainer but he remained completely still, ignoring the toy, for longer than the trainer could wait. In either case the trainer's hypothesis that he would grab the toy was wrong.

I also tried adapting advice from the kiko videos, which was to try a treat in one hand and a toy in the other, with the hypothesis that he would choose the treat over the toy. That failed because he ignored _both_ the treat _and_ the toy; he also completely ignored the hand with the treat - I could put it on his nose and he would not flinch. Murphy remained absolutely fixated on the hand that had power over the toy!

I had deep gashes on my knuckles from the occasions when Murphy had succeeded in grabbing his target. The skin on the back of my hand turned stiff with scars, and it stung every day, before I invested in leathers.

Adapting a different kiko video I used leather gloves to teach him that he cannot win by tugging. He has finally stopped. He is lovely _without_ Tug! He can be cuddled, rubbed, run with, *plays fetch*, and he has a good vocabulary. I also consulted his breeder. Her advice was _never_ teach Tug. Why would I bring back the one thing that caused so much pain to _everyone_ involved?

Fetch is the reason he walks in parks off leash. How do I exercise a 14kg puppy on a leash? (serious question)


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## jomiel (Feb 15, 2019)

Howler said:


> He steals food at home from the kitchen table, which is a warning that he needs training in that issue. It is going to be a problem if he snatches someone else's lunch from their public picnic table. We cannot allow big puppies to run around doing whatever they want just because they are young; they need to obey commands.


We learned to be very fastidious with our kitchen counters, dining table, coffee table, desks, etc. -- there must be no temptations on surfaces or in the rooms. Otherwise, each time the puppy steals food or a napkin, that is in itself a reward. When I'm prepping dinner or eating dinner when the surfaces are occupied with tempting items, then the puppy is in his exercise pen, crate, or leashed (I attached a leash to the freezer door) where he cannot reach interesting items.


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## jomiel (Feb 15, 2019)

Howler said:


> Fetch is the reason he walks in parks off leash. How do I exercise a 14kg puppy on a leash? (serious question)


Get a long line that's 15-30 yards. You can hold on to the end or allow him to drag it around while you're playing. Then pick up the leash or step on it if you sense trouble.

The tugging and biting behaviors sound like he's too aroused and over threshold. Perhaps the playtime is too long and he becomes like an overtired toddler who then has a temper because they're too tired but yet doesn't want to nap? Try making the playtimes shorter but more frequent.

Try to read something about understanding dog behavior and the human-dog relationship. I really like The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller, or Patricia McConnell's books are great too. Ian Dunbar has excellent free reading about puppies on his site (Resources) about how to set up your house and schedule for puppy management.

It is tempting to see our dog's behavior as willful and disobedient, but the truth is that puppies are learning everything about the world around them, and it's up to us to provide structure and meaning for them. Dog training isn't about making them do commands. We have to communicate in the way that they can understand, motivate them, and develop trust and friendship. When your puppy is frustrated or is excited, he's showing you exactly how he feels. Dogs don't know how to lie. It's up to us to understand what they are telling us, and to help them. 

Dogs don't generalize well. Just because he knows the command Sit or Come at home, doesn't mean he knows it while he's outside, in the company of other dogs, among other people, etc. You will have to train in all different environments and adapt the lesson each time. For example, practice Sit in the garden, on the sidewalk in front of the house, in the park, and while guests are over. He'll be more distracted in new locations and be able to do it for less times, but that is okay, it's the repetition that counts. Make the requirements for doing a Sit easier when it's a harder environment to do it and increase the treat reward.

Puppies have a very short attention span, just like little kids. They need to be managed likewise. Set him up for success -- keep the situation easy for him to do the right thing.


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## jomiel (Feb 15, 2019)

I found my puppy thread for Tomo (Our first puppy: Tomo) and it looks like Murphy and Tomo is about the same size at this age. Puppy training was quite hard and I broke down crying many times. He's 2 years old now and we still have bad times sometimes, but keep at it and Murphy will be great dog! Oh, the "stages of development" is general and not exactly which weeks or which months for a particular puppy -- physically goldens grow very fast, but they seem to maintain their sense of puppy fun and behaviors/development for a very long time. We're still always asked if he's a puppy.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

jomiel said:


> We learned to be very fastidious with our kitchen counters, dining table, coffee table, desks, etc. -- there must be no temptations on surfaces or in the rooms. Otherwise, each time the puppy steals food or a napkin, that is in itself a reward. When I'm prepping dinner or eating dinner when the surfaces are occupied with tempting items, then the puppy is in his exercise pen, crate, or leashed (I attached a leash to the freezer door) where he cannot reach interesting items.


Thanks for all your replies. I do not see how avoiding an issue will train him; surely he needs to be exposed to the temptation so that he can learn to resist that temptation?


jomiel said:


> The tugging and biting behaviors sound like he's too aroused and over threshold.


That is conventional wisdom, and for many weeks that exact belief determined how I treated him. The observation is that Murphy would go over threshold all the time so the philosophy meant we could not really do anything with him because we were always waiting for him to calm down.

In desperation I tried the complete opposite of conventional wisdom. I wore leathers and trained him while he was totally aroused and zooming, which is dangerous to do without leathers. The experiment worked because he simply gave up and obeyed. It was a breakthrough because he is now much gentler. If I go to him now he will look at me. If I give him a simple command and he will do it, and then look at me. That only happened because we worked through the state of being over aroused instead of trying to avoid it.

Not sure if its related but after some days of staying calm we noticed he gets an erection?



jomiel said:


> Puppies have a very short attention span, just like little kids.


They can definitely give attention to one thing for an extended time, like chewing a leg, if they want to


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Howler said:


> Thanks for all your replies. I do not see how avoiding an issue will train him; surely he needs to be exposed to the temptation so that he can learn to resist that temptation?


No. The way Jomiel did it is correct. If your pup does not learn how to chew, or steal food, or jump on counters and get rewarded by finding yummy things, he won't do these things as an adult. You need to get them past the puppy phase without giving them the opportunity to chew and be destructive. Supervise 100%, pick up all shoes, phones, remotes, etc. Don't leave food where he can steal it (or napkins or Kleenex, etc).


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

At this point I think it's a fundamental difference of philosophy or viewpoint between the myriads of commenters and OP. OP prefers to set their dog up for failure so they can punish while simultaneously viewing their dog as bad (stubborn, willful, disobedient, hardheaded, aggressive, etc) or something to be 'broken'. While the majority of those commenting (even those who are not + only trainers) are seeing the situation as navigating the learning hurdles with a puppy who is experiencing life as puppies do; setting them up for success to incentivize repeats of desired behaviors; and altering training styles and techniques to what works for the dog not necessarily pushing the dog into whatever mold works for the owner. 

I think I'm drawing the line for my participation at least. OP is Schrodinger's owner. Both knows everything and can train everything and somehow also overwhelmed and out of their depths. His puppy both knows commands precisely and nothing at all; in control at all times and out of control; doesn't jump up and also pushes kids in lakes, etc. All advice seems to fall on deaf ears. I've beaten my head against this wall enough. 

Good luck to your puppy.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

Sweet Girl said:


> You need to get them past the puppy phase without giving them the opportunity to chew and be destructive.


How long will the 'puppy phase' be?

GRs are known to remain puppy-like longer than many other breeds. I have met someone who has a 2.5 year old Labrador that still behaves like a young puppy. Are you advocating several years of 100% supervision?

I noticed none of the responses provided explanation of how to stop a small puppy from tearing at people, suggesting to avoid contact with people seems unlikely to work, and there is no indication of how this would prevent a full sized GR from tearing at people.

Furthermore, the advice appears contradictory because techniques in kiko videos are advocated when dogs are well behaved, and separation is advocated when a puppy misbehaves. What I did was provide consistency instead of changing the rules for the situation.



Brave said:


> Good luck to your puppy.


He does not need luck, he needs guidance so that he is controlled. Luck does not train a dog.

He is behaving much better after I adapted the lessons demonstrated in kiko videos, and the only thing I changed was (1) sticking to the same syllabus despite the fact that he was tugging on human skin and drawing blood, and (2) wearing leathers to avoid personal injury. I also dispensed with the professionally taught Tug lessons that had proved counter-productive.

I note nobody commented on personal injuries - many of you are being selective about which sentences are included in your version of the narrative.



Brave said:


> OP is Schrodinger's owner.


I do not understand the reference but you seem to be expressing offence that I have made some progress after turning my back on the puppy school and after trying my own way of teaching him that he needs to be calm if he wants to be fed, and gentle if he wants to be around people. Is this what you intended?

As an aside, my wife is no longer screaming and crying. She is now able to grab him all over. I also don't like being grabbed and I sympathise with Murphy. She can command him to give her his paws for grooming, which is an improvement. Btw, he previously scratched the face of a professional groomer so these small steps are big improvements.



Sweet Girl said:


> If your pup does not learn how to chew, or steal food, or jump on counters and get rewarded by finding yummy things, he won't do these things as an adult.


Most adult dogs have never seen a whole carcass hang from a hook, and most adult dogs have never been into an abattoir. Are you suggesting an adult dog, that never learned about such things as a puppy, would ignore a carcass on a hook in an abattoir?

COVID-era food deliveries put food at floor level. We have an open plan and our puppy took a pomegranate on the first delivery (to him it was a toy) and he now waits for the bananas on each delivery (he has learned to open them so that is not a toy).

My wife was disappointed last night that he jumped and knocked a bowl of noodles from her hands; training him to leave food alone is something I need to crack because people everywhere have food and he needs to be able to ignore a small child eating a hot dog. I suppose some would say I need him to avoid him being in those situations, but food is part of life and people are possessive of their food, so I will instead pursue the training that teaches dogs to leave food alone no matter how over-stimulated he becomes during those lessons.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Brave said:


> I actually taught Lana Stop. For us STOP meant, stop what you're doing, focus on me and come to me.


I use "Stop". Dog, especially puppies, hear NO frequently. "Stop" is a lesser reprimand, it just means quit doing that before you get in trouble. A for instance would be a pup that is about to tear up the flower bed or chew on the couch.


Howler said:


> Puppies learn fastest at 8 to 16 weeks old, and their lessons at that age are permanent.


Not


Howler said:


> GRs are known to remain puppy-like longer than many other breeds.


That is the owners. If you see a dog wearing a scarf, sweater or boots it is probably immature and poorly trained.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Howler said:


> I noticed none of the responses provided explanation of how to stop a small puppy from tearing at people, suggesting to avoid contact with people seems unlikely to work, and there is no indication of how this would prevent a full sized GR from tearing at people.
> (...)
> I note nobody commented on personal injuries - many of you are being selective about which sentences are included in your version of the narrative.


I'm not sure if, by "tearing at people", you mean running at them or ripping their clothes. Either way, my answer is the same one I gave in response to a similar point earlier in the thread. If the dog is likely to do either of these things, it should be on a leash. Period. Nobody has suggested that you avoid contact with people. In our puppy class, we ask people to take their puppies to busy locations (superstore car parks or entrances, shopping malls, etc.) with a bag full of rewards, and ask strangers to command the puppy to "sit", then reward it. I've done this with all three of our puppies (all of them being high-energy, intense working dogs) and by the end of the first session, the pups can't wait to sit in front of strangers in order to get the treats. It's a great way of teaching a pup how to greet people, and how to act in their presence. Of course, it's much harder to teach once the pup has become used to running at people, jumping on them, grabbing their clothes and so on. The trick is to teach them the right way from the start.

As for personal injuries, my opinion is that if you let a puppy injure you, then that is your fault, not the pup's fault. He is a dog; you are a human. You are in charge of the situation. If you're unable to manage your dog in a way that prevents him from injuring you - especially as, from everything you have written here, you have a pup who is desperate to learn - then that is on you. Puppy teeth are sharp. If they make contact with human skin, they will draw blood. Golden retriever puppies are naturally mouthy. It's up to you to teach bite inhibition: in other words, to teach your pup not to bite down when his teeth make contact with human skin. I don't understand why you're still allowing yourself to be injured like this by a 14-week-old puppy. When I got my first competition golden - an extremely intense, driven, assertive dog - my daughter was five years old. Let me tell you, that puppy never hurt my kid, or anyone else in the household, and never drew blood by deliberately biting or scratching, because we taught her not to do that. If ever the pup became over-excited, we managed the situation by crating or leashing her.



Howler said:


> Most adult dogs have never seen a whole carcass hang from a hook, and most adult dogs have never been into an abattoir. Are you suggesting an adult dog, that never learned about such things as a puppy, would ignore a carcass on a hook in an abattoir?


My dog has never seen a carcass or been in an abattoir, and I can guarantee you 100% that he would ignore a carcass on a hook, because I would instruct him to "leave it alone" and he would obey me. I don't have the slightest doubt about that. I would bet next year's salary on it.

This particular example tells me that you have a very fundamental misconception about what's involved in training a dog. It's not about exposing the dog to every possible situation in life and training for that specific situation. It's about establishing a relationship with the dog where he looks to you for guidance in every situation, regardless of what it may be. It's about building a relationship of trust, where you're the leader and the dog is the follower. I'm not talking about the debunked "dominance theory" here. It's about trust, not dominance. You achieve this through basic management and basic obedience, and by not putting the dog in self-rewarding situations where he learns that it's more fun to disobey than to obey (e.g. knocking a bowl of noodles out of someone's hand or pushing a child into a river). 



Howler said:


> COVID-era food deliveries put food at floor level. We have an open plan and our puppy took a pomegranate on the first delivery (to him it was a toy) and he now waits for the bananas on each delivery (he has learned to open them so that is not a toy).
> 
> My wife was disappointed last night that he jumped and knocked a bowl of noodles from her hands; training him to leave food alone is something I need to crack because people everywhere have food and he needs to be able to ignore a small child eating a hot dog. I suppose some would say I need him to avoid him being in those situations, but food is part of life and people are possessive of their food, so I will instead pursue the training that teaches dogs to leave food alone no matter how over-stimulated he becomes during those lessons.


Why are you allowing him to steal from food deliveries? Put him on a leash or put him in the crate until he's sufficiently trained and mature enough to sit and watch without stealing. By allowing him to engage in self-rewarding behaviour (grabbing things from boxes or bags), you're actively training him to steal. I truly, truly don't understand why you would do that. It's the kind of thing that is easy to manage, and so much harder to correct after the fact. It's as if you're deliberately making life difficult for yourself.

As for the bowl of noodles: Keep him on a leash in the house. When someone walks past with a bowl of noodles, ask him to sit. When he sits, give him a noodle out of the bowl. This teaches him that the way to get noodles is to sit, not to grab the bowl. It's not rocket science. And I hope your wife was disappointed with herself and you, not with the dog. This was a very basic training failure on the part of the human, and was in no way a dog failure.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I have skimmed this thread and all I am seeing is a complete unwillingness to discipline this puppy. For the love of dog, give him a good hard correction. Grab him by the ruff and teach him the meaning of "NO". If you don't have eyes on him, he needs to be in a crate. Period. I promise a puppy that jumped up and bit my face or tried to steal my glasses off of my face would only do it once. You are not going to break him physically or mentally if you physically and verbally correct him. Knocking a bowl of noodles out of my hands would also only happen once. I'm not saying you need to beat him or anything, but he clearly has NO IDEA how to behave properly in a human house. He is a DOG. Teach him how to live in a human world. Use structure and discipline.

Also, teaching a puppy to tug is not a sin in and of itself. Tugging is actually one of the absolute best rewards that will reinforce good behaviors for the long term. If I give my girl the choice between a tug and food as a reward for obedience training, she will choose the tug every time.

ETA: Did you get this puppy from a reputable breeder? If so, were you truthful with them about what you were looking for in a puppy? It really sounds like your expectations and your reality do not match and that this puppy is also not a good match for you. He sounds like way more dog than you were expecting. I am really not trying to be mean here in any way, but if you are not willing to take our advice, then I think it's time to give the puppy back and go for a better match to your experience and lifestyle.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

SRW said:


> That is the owners. If you see a dog wearing a scarf, sweater or boots it is probably immature and poorly trained.


This made me laugh out loud.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Howler said:


> How long will the 'puppy phase' be?


The puppy phase that I am referring to, is about 8 to 10 months. To me, the first year or so of having a puppy is constantly teaching the pup how to be a good dog. It is a long process that takes patience and consistency.

I am one of the people who sets my pup up for success. I also have an open-concept home, but when my pup came home, the bedrooms (carpeted) were blocked off by baby gates and off limits. All the shoes, remotes, phones, electrical cords, furniture I didn't want her to chew the legs of, were either kept off the floor or moved to where she could not access them (I literally had furniture pushed aside and behind an ex-pen for a few months). But I also had a pup who never ever chewed anything (two, in fact, as I did the same with my previous Golden, too) and never destroyed anything. Her first night home, she pulled the tea towel down that was hanging from the oven handle. So I didn't hang the tea towels for several months. The bathroom trash can was up on the back of the toilet, so she could not grab Kleenex out of it, and the toilet paper roll was on the vanity so that it was not a temptation when she followed me into the bathroom. Puppies are babies - and like babies, they will investigate everything if given a chance. But also like babies, they do grow up and so if you reintroduce a hanging toilet paper roll at 8 months old, it is not interesting anymore. You've gotten them past that phase.



Howler said:


> Most adult dogs have never seen a whole carcass hang from a hook, and most adult dogs have never been into an abattoir. Are you suggesting an adult dog, that never learned about such things as a puppy, would ignore a carcass on a hook in an abattoir?
> 
> COVID-era food deliveries put food at floor level. We have an open plan and our puppy took a pomegranate on the first delivery (to him it was a toy) and he now waits for the bananas on each delivery (he has learned to open them so that is not a toy).


CeeGee answered both of these points much the way I planned to when I first read them. And I, too, would bet my next year's salary on the fact that I could keep my adult dog off a carcass with a "leave it" command which I taught from our very first walk and continued to train and reinforce on every single walk for about the first year of her life (not an exaggeration). She was not off leash, not able to grab anything she liked. I live in a city - we walked and walk regularly on leash on sidewalks where there would be dropped food. It was a challenge, but she learned to leave it. Now, I can actually confidently allow her to smell something on the ground during a walk, but if I say leave it, she will leave it (and this includes pieces of bagels and even pizza, which we have indeed encountered). But it did take months of training. Months and months of every walk involving a pocketful of treats, keeping her focus on me and not what was on the ground, etc. When we went somewhere where she could be off leash, she wasn't off leash until her recall was solid (again, this took many, many months - close to a year). Until then, she was on long leads or within fenced or naturally enclosed areas.

I do think your pup has way too much freedom. He is being allowed to get into things he shouldn't. Food deliveries? Put him behind a baby gate, or in a crate, or tether him to you. He should never have the chance to even get near a box or bag of food. But eventually, if you teach him he is not allowed to get into stuff like that, you WILL be able to bring in food deliveries without him stealing. I can leave a plate of food beside my dog on the couch and she doesn't even look at it. I bring in grocery bags and put them on the floor of the kitchen (including meat) and she just gives them a little smell. She knows what she is allowed and not allowed to do in my house because she was taught. She is allowed on all the furniture - she is not allowed to counter surf.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Howler said:


> How long will the 'puppy phase' be?
> 
> GRs are known to remain puppy-like longer than many other breeds. I have met someone who has a 2.5 year old Labrador that still behaves like a young puppy. Are you advocating several years of 100% supervision?


YES



Howler said:


> ...I noticed none of the responses provided explanation of how to stop a small puppy from tearing at people, suggesting to avoid contact with people seems unlikely to work, and there is no indication of how this would prevent a full sized GR from tearing at people....


Then you haven't read them. Multiple people have said, KEEP HIM ON A LEASH. 
And teach him to SIT when he approaches people. If he is not sitting he gets no attention from the person. 



Howler said:


> COVID-era food deliveries put food at floor level. We have an open plan and our puppy took a pomegranate on the first delivery (to him it was a toy) and he now waits for the bananas on each delivery (he has learned to open them so that is not a toy).


Then pick them up! and Teach him "leave it".


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

I will never understand people who ask questions and then turn around and argue with the people who try and help them. If you know exactly what a dog needs in terms of training and exposure, you would not have these questions or this issue with your baby dog. 

Almost all (if not all) of the members who have responded to this thread are highly knowledgeable golden retriever enthusiasts who have raised numerous golden puppies and put numerous titles on those dogs. I know ceegee, specifically, has years of experience with opinionated dogs from her Ruby and her daughter's toy poodle. 

Listen to them. If they're telling you that Murphy is getting too much freedom and he needs more structure and management, then believe them. Make the changes they're suggesting (i.e., don't let him run up to people willy-nilly unless you are attached to the other end of the leash and can facilitate a polite greeting, don't give him so much freedom to wander your house and steal delivered fruits or steal food from people, etc). Believe them when they say that you are moving far too fast and expecting far too much from a 13 week old puppy.


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## Howler (Feb 4, 2021)

I don't want to jinx recent good luck but I am happy to report Murphy was suddenly well behaved when he turned 15 weeks old.

There is a story behind this change. Circumstances put me in a difficult situation where I needed to be somewhere all day, and I had nowhere to leave Murphy. I very nervously took Murphy with me to a 5 star hotel in London where he checked-in and checked-out with no major incident. On that day he visited a dog grooming coffee shop where he was petrified by a horde of barking dogs and he several times peed indoors in front of the cakes, but otherwise he was a good boy. He is now 16 weeks old and my hands are clear of bite marks 🤩

So what actually changed? With the above hotel danger fast approaching (I booked it with about 12 hours notice) there was a desperate need to control him instantly. I was watching youtube videos on dog training and came across one in which the leash is used to physically impose a 'Sit' each time their puppy misbehaved. That particular leash technique did not work for me because Murphy repeatedly leapt vertically form the sit position to grab my hand, but I needed to persevere because I needed to find a holy grail fast! To give myself space to think about what could be done I tied his leash to a door handle. He just sat and looked at me with those big black eyes, so I praised him and let him off. We carried on for a bit and each time he misbehaved, I issued the 'Sit' command that failed, and I again attached him to a door. He then quickly sat and waited to be untied. Within a few repeats he was sitting instantly to avoid being attached to the door, upon which I praised him and released the leash. I do not know how many times we went over this but in one instance Murphy opened his mouth to bite, stopped himself, yawned in the air and just sat. He stopped biting within one training session, and no biting means no tugging either!

A sharp 'Sit' command can now snap him out of a zoomie


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