# Sorry, I have to ask this again!



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

My Beau is now one year old and I am glad to report that he has turned out to be one sweet, silly, happy boy! He still has one big problem though. We have had him to the vet several times and we have run several tests on him with no real answers. Needless to say we are willing to try anything! Here's the problem:

He has pudding poo. Not diarrhea, just that imposible to pick up with the pooper scooper poo. He has had two accidents over the past six months or so which also is a problem because I cannot leave him for more than 5-6 hours (max). We have tried these foods over the past seven months:

We started him out on Canidae All Life Stages Lamb and Rice - worst one for him.

Then switched him to Canidae All Life Stages Chicken and Rice - better but not good.

After that he was on Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach which was about the same.

Now he is on 3/4 Eukenuba Sensitive Stomach and about 1/4 of the Pro Plan and will be 100% Eukenuba this week. He has been on this for about three weeks now with no change.

My vet told me that it could be due to stress. He has nothing to be stressed over though, he does not act stressed either, he's a perfect dog, never chews things, ect.

Any suggestions? 

Thank you!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Is it always the same, or are there changes in consistency? If you've switched between such different foods and had exactly the same results on the other end, I strongly doubt that it's a food related problem.

If there's good days and bad days, then a long-term infection with something like giardia or coccidia may be the cause. If it's always consistently pudding poo, even through all the food changes, then I'm really stumped.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Ok... it could be stress, because some dogs don't really show it the same way as other dogs. When my guy is stressed, he gets a little "busier" and "needier". It's like he's trying harder to please me and everyone else. 

And he usually gets stressed when I'm stressed. <- So like, over the weekend I had a lot of nervous/anxious stuff going on in my life. I wasn't yelling or anything like that, but those closest to me could still tell I was off. Jacks was right there doing that wide-eyed look and trying to glue himself to my feet wherever I happened to be. 

That said - to fix your dog's problem -

1. Consider picking up a prescription dog food for right now. This would be something formulated so that the dogs can easily and quickly digest it. 

2. Until you put your dog on that kibble, you need to go the hamburger and rice route for a few days until your dog's stomach settles down. 

3. Over time, when you have at least a month of normal bowel movements, you can try to wean your dog back onto normal kibble. I suggest Nutro Ultra, er, because that's the one dog food that our collie (he has chronic stomach/digestive problems) can handle. But for your dog, it could be something different. 

4. Don't be surprised or discouraged if it takes several months of prescription kibble before your dog can handle a switch to regular kibble. 

5. Stop switching brands. Even if your dog doesn't have a digestive/bowel problem besides stress, there's a chance he can develop something with constant changes to his diet.

ETA - I didn't think of parasites.  Definitely I would rule that out if you haven't already.


----------



## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

Emma had had similar issues, with lots of tummy upsets and never a single firm poop. The moment I said to hell with kibble(and no transition at all to raw) I have not had a single issue and it's been 1.5 years since then. When she was on kibble even chewing sticks (she spits out chips) could cause an upset stomach. Let alone giving her a different treat...If anything else fails you might like to give raw feeding a shot.


----------



## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Heartofgold*

Heartofgold

I assume the vet has done fecal tests and ruled out worms, coccidia, giardia?

Not sure if this might be part of the problem, but does Beau drink lots of water?

Could he be eating something outside that could be giving him the runs.
*
I googled and found this:
http://www.practical-pet-care.com/archive.php?2005092710204891

Answered by Bordterr on 9/27/2005, 12:00 pm*
Chronic Diarrhea
> My 10 mon old dog has chronic diarrhea and I am lost as to
> what the cause may be. He has been tested for worms several
> times now -all negative. I feed him quality dog food from
> the pet store. I cut out all treats, I never give him table
> scraps. No rawhide. And still this problem persists. He
> may have a normal BM but just when I think it maybe
> clearing, another bout will over come him. Any ideas>? He
> is otherwise very healthy, and I treat him monthly with
> heartworm pills and Frontline Plus. I once had a cat that
> would have diarrhea if she digested fleas, does any one
> think this may be it? Help, cleaning up poop is never fun,
> but diarrhea is WORSE!!!!
> 

................................

I really doubt that the problem is digested fleas, but I do have to wonder about food allergies. And possibly the canine equivalent of irritable bowel syndrome, since the diarrhea is episodic.... coming and going.

THere is a blood test that can spot over 40 different allergens... inhalant, contact, and food... that a dog could react to. Some vets avoid this test as it is over sensitive to food ingredients, but usually eliminating those with the highest numbers on the report will be sufficient.

Irritable bowel syndrome can also be allergy based in some dogs, often with a sensitivity to wheat or gluten, in the dog that doesn't have actual malabsorption syndrome (voracious appetite, thin, large FOUL smelling stools with a lot of fat, skin and coat around rectum may be oily... not what you described).

Whatever the cause, it's time to look beyond intestinal parasites. Even a course of antibiotics to wipe out bacterium that might be hanging around and growing more in cycles... 

If the food you are feeding contains corn, wheat, soy, dyes, the "big four" common allergens, you could change to a food with none of these, and possibly with a meat that your pup hasn't yet had. But it would be quicker, and easier on the pup to have the allergy blood test done... and much more accurate... then make a food change.

Most vets will immediately turn to Hill's Science Diet prescription foods; this is the brand they learned about in the one weekend small animal nutrition seminar they took as an elective in vet school.

Some brands to consider, which eliminate the big four, and often offer several options for ingredients, include: Nutro's Natural Choice and Natural Choice Ultra, Canidae, Wellness, Wysong, Solid Gold, Royal Canin, California Natural, and other 100%% natural foods. 

If and when you change your dog's food, do it gradually, over a 6-8 day period, to avoid tummy upset at either or both ends of the dog. Taper onto the new food while tapering off the old one.
Note that it can take 2-3 months for the final results of a food change to be apparent... some changes will be obvious sooner.

If the approach you and your vet come up with still doesn't work, you can request a referral to a vet internal medicine specialist or a vet dermatologist (the vet world's allergy specialist).


----------



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

He has good days and bad days. He does not have giardia or coccidia though, he's been tested for both of those. He also eats grass on occasion and after that he usually throws up, not always though. This tends to happen on his bad days. I have noticed since he has been on the Eukenuba he is not nearly as gassy. 

I'm stumped! This has been going on since the day we got him. I have a theory though, I know it sounds crazy:

We have dogs all around us, some are neutered and some are not. Beau just got neutered recently. It seems as though he marks his territory more than other dogs I've seen and he is a little posessive of our female. ie he sits on her, he gets between her and other dogs that come around, ect. Thankfully he's never been agressive only posessive. Do you think that when other dogs come around he is making himself "sick" so to speak in order to mark his territory?


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

There is a product called Forti Flora that the vet can give you, it increases the good enzymes in the digestive tract, I've had good luck with it with several foster dogs.


----------



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

Karen519 said:


> Heartofgold
> 
> I assume the vet has done fecal tests and ruled out worms, coccidia, giardia?
> 
> ...


I did not realize that it would take 2-3 months to see a change, my vet told me 2-3 weeks. I will keep him on this food much longer to see what happens.


----------



## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

I am wondering about rice... it's common in all the foods. I just wonder if you tried something like a VERY limited ingredient diet by Natural Balance (with no rice) such as Duck & Potato. That would be cheaper than trying a Rx Limited Ingredient Diet. But you would have to try it for about 2-3 months to see if it helps. It might help the first few days! But still.... would need to try it for a bit. That would probably be what I would do, if the vet has ruled out anything bacterial, etc. 

Good luck!!!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If you put your dog on a hamburger and rice diet for a few days and the problems continue, then I'd gather the rice isn't helping and you need to talk to your vet about a prescription diet + meds.  

Most cases though... I think there is another issue (parasites, stress, cat food, cat poop, too much lawn grazing) that initially causes the stomach upset or diarrhea. Backing off and offering hamburger and rice usually helps clear that up (less demanding of the system) so you don't have to switch kibbles. 

And it usually takes only a few days to a week for the hamburger and rice to work. 

And if it doesn't clear up or the diarrhea returns when you try weaning back on the regular food, then that's a good time to switch to a different kibble.


----------



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

The only thing that seems to have helped so far is putting him on the hamburger and rice diet. I do give him that for a few days whenever he has an accident in the house or I notice it has gotten bad for several days in a row. However, I can't keep him on that forever. I have been told by the vet that hamburger and rice isn't a balanced enough diet.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

heartofgold said:


> The only thing that seems to have helped so far is putting him on the hamburger and rice diet. I do give him that for a few days whenever he has an accident in the house or I notice it has gotten bad for several days in a row. However, I can't keep him on that forever. *I have been told by the vet that hamburger and rice isn't a balanced enough diet*.


 
It's not. You need to wean him back onto a regular food. Personally speaking, I'd talk with your vet about getting him on a prescription diet. You can leave your dog on that for several months if need be until his system recovers from whatever he's going through. You can't leave your dog on hamburger and rice for several months.

That said - another thing you can try is doing a partial hamburger and rice and part of your regular kibble. So maybe 1/2 cup of each. Because the prescription kibble is so expensive, I'd probably go this route first.


----------



## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

Megora said:


> If you put your dog on a hamburger and rice diet for a few days and the problems continue, then I'd gather the rice isn't helping and you need to talk to your vet about a prescription diet + meds.
> 
> Most cases though... I think there is another issue (parasites, stress, cat food, cat poop, too much lawn grazing) that initially causes the stomach upset or diarrhea. Backing off and offering hamburger and rice usually helps clear that up (less demanding of the system) so you don't have to switch kibbles.
> 
> ...


 
Oh, good idea!


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I would suggest a raw diet, something like single meat source patties, and digestive supplements to help with things. Urban carnivore is a great product for this sort of thing, you may find he instantly improves. Mainly because it is much more digestable than kibble, there's no mix of ingredients and it's not cooked. Raw fed dogs tend to have much harder, smaller poops as a result.

Bender for example couldn't eat chicken based dog kibble, but has done well on raw chicken for over ten years - we don't often have issues with poops being soft.

Lana


----------



## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

firedancer722 said:


> I am wondering about rice... it's common in all the foods. I just wonder if you tried something like a VERY limited ingredient diet by Natural Balance (with no rice) such as Duck & Potato. That would be cheaper than trying a Rx Limited Ingredient Diet. But you would have to try it for about 2-3 months to see if it helps. It might help the first few days! But still.... would need to try it for a bit. That would probably be what I would do, if the vet has ruled out anything bacterial, etc.
> 
> Good luck!!!


I was going to post that you try to find a common denominator in all the foods - whether it's rice, chicken, or something else. It could be your golden can't handle grains at all OR that he's just super sensitive to rice (which was the case with my brother's dog when he was on Acana LBP and had the exact same problem as your pup - but with a lot more diarrhea!).

Instead of hamburger and rice, try hamburger and boiled potato to see if there's a difference in the firmness of his poop. That will help to see if it's the rice that's causing the issue. That's how my brother eventually figured out it was the rice upsetting his dog. Hamburger/rice still caused loose poops but hamburger/potato firmed them up in a day or two. My bro eventually switched to Orijen 6 fish which only had potato in it - no rice.

Ranger can handle any meat sources but can't have rice or oats in his food - he just can't digest it properly. It's a lot more common than people think. Ranger is now raw fed and his poops have never been smaller or firmer. If you want to investigate raw feeding, there's a bunch of starter info on this forum that gives more resources to check out before you start. 

In the meantime, I'd probably look for a good, grain-free food without rice and an alternative protein source. Mix it with hamburger and potato and gradually (like 2 weeks, at least) increase the portion of kibble to hamburger/potato. The slower you mix it, the less chance of a digestive upset.


----------



## GRS (Oct 1, 2010)

We had this exact same problem with our boy Chester. A.K.A. "Mr. Soft Serve". We tried everything it seemed. Until he became very ill - unrelated to diet. His vet placed him on a completely fat free diet to address other issues. Primary food was Royal Canin prescription Fat Free and for the first time in his life voila, solid stool.


----------



## The Trio (Apr 24, 2010)

Have you ever thought about your water? Are you giving him hard water or soft? Does it have a lot of chlorine in it? We had to put a whole house filter in and then a membrane system to get our dogs back on track.


----------



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> There is a product called Forti Flora that the vet can give you, it increases the good enzymes in the digestive tract, I've had good luck with it with several foster dogs.


Thank you for the suggestion, I have not tried this yet. My vet did not tell me about it either, which is odd unless it's not a very common prescription. Anyway, thanks!


----------



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

The Trio said:


> Have you ever thought about your water? Are you giving him hard water or soft? Does it have a lot of chlorine in it? We had to put a whole house filter in and then a membrane system to get our dogs back on track.


We have city water, no water softener or anything. I can't imagine it being the water, but I guess anything is possible.


----------



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

Bender said:


> I would suggest a raw diet, something like single meat source patties, and digestive supplements to help with things. Urban carnivore is a great product for this sort of thing, you may find he instantly improves. Mainly because it is much more digestable than kibble, there's no mix of ingredients and it's not cooked. Raw fed dogs tend to have much harder, smaller poops as a result.
> 
> Bender for example couldn't eat chicken based dog kibble, but has done well on raw chicken for over ten years - we don't often have issues with poops being soft.
> 
> Lana


What is the price of a raw diet compared to the prescription food? The reason I ask is, I had him on a prescription diet for about 3-4 weeks (we went through a 35 lb bag I think) and he did much better. Although within a week of switching him back he was back to having pudding poo. I would keep him on the prescription but I can't afford it, there are very few people who could at $75 a bag! So, maybe raw is the next step, unless it will cost me $75 every 3-4 weeks. I have two dogs, two cats, and two kids to feed. The vet said he is healthy and is absorbing nutrients so the pudding poo is not causing him any problems...just me. I don't even like taking him on walks unless I know he just went cause I don't want to have to pick it up and carry it home.


----------



## heartofgold (Oct 27, 2007)

GRS said:


> We had this exact same problem with our boy Chester. A.K.A. "Mr. Soft Serve". We tried everything it seemed. Until he became very ill - unrelated to diet. His vet placed him on a completely fat free diet to address other issues. Primary food was Royal Canin prescription Fat Free and for the first time in his life voila, solid stool.


My vet mentioned doing fat free. He said some dogs just can't handle the high fat content of regular dog food. I can't afford to feed prescription to him forever though. Does anyone know if any other companies make fat free or really low fat dog food? 

I can afford around $40-$45 for a 30-35 lb bag.


----------



## firedancer722 (Apr 12, 2010)

heartofgold said:


> My vet mentioned doing fat free. He said some dogs just can't handle the high fat content of regular dog food. I can't afford to feed prescription to him forever though. Does anyone know if any other companies make fat free or really low fat dog food?
> 
> I can afford around $40-$45 for a 30-35 lb bag.


 
Hmmmm.... what about California Natural's Low Fat Chicken Meal & Rice food? It has 21% protein and 7% fat. A very simple food. And CN is not too terribly expensive if you can get it locally and buy the big bags. 

There's also Natural Balance Original Reduced Calorie Ultra food; however, it has more ingredients. It only has 16.5% protein, but 6% fat. 

I completely understand about rx food being so expensive! I checked out some prices just to see what they were at petsmart, and I was soo thankful that Charlie doesn't need that (at least not at this point), because I wouldn't able to afford it either.  

Good luck...
Candace


----------

