# Paranoid about HD



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

So, as a GR owner I always have hip dysplasia on the mind. I try not to worry too much about it but lately a few things have made me think maybe I should be nervous. Every time my 8 month old gets up from laying down he always walks with a limp for a bit. My BF says its probably just from sleeping funny. Is this something common or should I head to the vet? Also, on two different occassions oliver has cried out in pain. The first time we were training and I rewarded him with hugs (jumping up). When he landed back on all fours he yelped, tail went between his legs and he ran away. That was about a month ago. The same thing happened again yestetday except this time we were just doing recall practice. He was sprinting to me and when he came to a stop in front of me he yelped, yucked his tail and ran away. His reaction was as if I had like hit him or something. I know I didnt step on him or anything. Im starting to get worried  any thoughts? Vet time?

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## Artnlibsmom (May 8, 2013)

Well, I'm as paranoid as you....maybe more! I like to think of it as being an observant Mommy. I personally would take Oliver to the vet, if for nothing more than piece of mind. Perhaps this is nothing but wouldn't you feel better to be sure? I know I would. A pup shouldn't (IMO) have many instances that they display that kind of pain without an obvious reason. Better safe. Good luck, and please post updates.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Get him checked out at the vet at your next routine visit. You can get a TBD test to rule them out (which I think is a good idea in CT in general every 6 months), and you can also have the doc manipulate key areas like the patellas and the hips to check for discomfort or stiffness.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, though. At 8 months, it could just be and uncomfortable angle on a joint for a second and then some puppy drama.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

A pup crying out like that is not normal. I would take your pup to the vet. It could be something benign like panosteitis or something more serious. Some of mine have had pano when they were growing and others have had Lyme disease that made them limp...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

So originally I was going to wait to get Oliver checked out until July when we go in for our semiannual tick panel. But Ive been watching him closely and its always his right front leg that he limps on. This morning he limped when he was rumning around outside..and it was a pretty dramatic limp. Theres no way its from sleeping funny. Something is definitely wrong. We have a vet apt Friday morning. Im praying its not ED but my hopes are pretty low 

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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Just in case it is ED or HD, there is life afterwards. My boy Reilly has severe ED and mild HD. He has never had surgery. There are many things that help like glucosamine, acupuncture, adequan, tramadol, etc. So there is life. Right now I'm getting Reilly ready for his first hunt test. He should do well. He loves to swim and that's half of the test. So look on the bright side, there are definitely things you can do to make Oliver happy IF his problem is ED or HD, which I hope it's not.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Hoping it's nothing serious but good to get it checked out. In CT I'd be more concerned about possible TBD than anything else.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Oh yikes, I hope it is nothing serious...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your kind words. I definitely plan to keep training in hunting and obedience with him. I just hope I can keep his quality of life up and his pain minimal. This has been going on for awhile now - since late feb/march. If hes been in pain this whole time and I didnt do anything about it  id feel so awful. Hopefully its nothing major. I did talk to my pet insurance and they cover everything related to ED so worst case scenario I know I can afford to give him the best care possible. 

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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Be sure to update us on Friday. Tell the vet clearly all that you've seen. As others have said, ED is not the end of the world. My Tess has double HD--born with it--and she is a bit stiff once in a while but she is still very lively. I keep her weight low and give her supplements. 

Try not to borrow trouble and worry too much until Friday!


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## Sheldon's Mom (Dec 29, 2012)

Courtney
I just read your update about Oliver's condition. I was so hoping he was doing better.
I know this is hard for you. I will look for your post after your visit to the vet.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Praying for good news. It's good he's getting checked out by the vet. Bear is mildly HD and has been living with either a partial torn or ruptured ACL since March. He won't have surgery until August and while its hard to see him have bad days, we use supplements and pain medication while we wait for his growth to slow down (per drs. Orders). We give 2700 mg of DHA/EP-(fish oil) a day, plus 1500 mg glucosamine/chrondatine/MSM, plus 400 IU of vitamin E a day. He gets tramadol when he is in pain, which is less frequently since we upped his fish oil from 1800 mg to 2700 mg (again drs. Orders). 

Sorry to ramble, but there are ways to treat the symptoms and things to do to help minimize problems. Like swimming. The more you know the more you'll be able to set limitations on his activities to prevent him from over-doing it. Bear is on full activity restriction until surgery but his quality of life is still 100%. There are no complaints from him. 

Good luck and keep us posted. 


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Well Oliver is currently getting radiographs of his elbow and shoulder done. After talking with the vet we ruled out pano because Oliver's not tender or sensitive to touching the leg or moving it. He messed around with his leg quite a bit and Oliver didn't give any signs of being in pain. The vet also doesnt think it's lyme, especially since its isolated to one leg. Once we rule out ED then he said we can test for lyme. He said it could be that he just irritated it from playing with his brother or being active and that rest and an anti-imflammatory could be all he needs. He's worried about the fact that it's been going on for so long though and because of his breed. He said it could be OCD (Osteochondritis Dissecans). Because its more intermittent and not a constant thing he said that it could be that he has loose cartilage floating around and only when things come together a certain way will he feel pain which would explain why only sometimes he yelps out in pain. He said we'll know when we look at the radiographs. I'm heading back over there in an hour. I'm wondering if maybe he did pull something though. I didn't think of that as an option. He and his brother do wrestle pretty intensely and very often. So maybe he pulled something and it's never had the time to heal. I really hope its something like that and not ED or Lyme. It does sound like with surgery though (if it is ED) that he'll be fine, just need some supplements and limit certain activities. I'll keep you all updated. The waiting is the hardest part.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's weird that they didn't do the Lyme test first. You can do a SNAP 4Dx test in a few minutes with a blood sample. That seems cheaper and faster to rule out before doing radiographs.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> It's weird that they didn't do the Lyme test first. You can do a SNAP 4Dx test in a few minutes with a blood sample. That seems cheaper and faster to rule out before doing radiographs.


I agree with doing the snap test. It only cost us about $30-40 and it covers three tick born illnesses plus heart worms. 


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Yeah I'm still somewhat confused as to why we didn't do the Snap Test yet. He really seemed to think it wasn't tick related. Maybe because it's been going on since Feb and there's less of a chance of ticks around that time? We got the radiographs back. There's too spots he's somewhat concerned about so he's sending them out to a board certified radiologist to look at. He says he doesn't see any degenerative joint disease so thats good. He also said that it doesn't look like anything that would require surgery. I'm kind of confused as to what's wrong, I guess I just have to wait for the radiologist to call back. For now he gave me an anti-inflammatory (Novox). And said to have him take it easy. I wish I had some sort of idea what's wrong. If the radiologist does find something I'm sort of confused as to what it would be if its not ED? Idk  Maybe I should take a video of him limping and show my vet. Maybe that'll help.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Puppies are so worry-causing with their orthoedics. I have had 10 normal elbows, but 2 EDs, and all passing hips (so far) in 12 goldens. One had pano. All had some kind of limp once or twice, lol, that had me beside myself. For Tally, he had anaplasmosis. I think almost all active pups ding themselves and limp at least once, and it can get chonic. Once in a while, it is bad news but mostly it passes with rest.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

If any New England vet said anything like "there's less of a chance of ticks around that time?" GET A NEW VET...that is outdated, uninformed thinking...




coaraujo said:


> Yeah I'm still somewhat confused as to why we didn't do the Snap Test yet. He really seemed to think it wasn't tick related. Maybe because it's been going on since Feb and there's less of a chance of ticks around that time? We got the radiographs back. There's too spots he's somewhat concerned about so he's sending them out to a board certified radiologist to look at. He says he doesn't see any degenerative joint disease so thats good. He also said that it doesn't look like anything that would require surgery. I'm kind of confused as to what's wrong, I guess I just have to wait for the radiologist to call back. For now he gave me an anti-inflammatory (Novox). And said to have him take it easy. I wish I had some sort of idea what's wrong. If the radiologist does find something I'm sort of confused as to what it would be if its not ED? Idk  Maybe I should take a video of him limping and show my vet. Maybe that'll help.


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## Winniesmom (Jul 7, 2012)

Winnie limped when she woke up for 6 weeks when she was @ 6 months. Every time she woke up she would limp for a few steps then it would go away. Took her to the vet and orthopedist more times then I would admit. X-rays were normal no tick disease etc. one morning she woke up and never limped again. They think it was probably just a slight injury from playing. She was put on consequim ds and snap tip supplements. Vet kept on telling me that is probably just a injury that will heal itself. It did. Hopefully yours is the same. Btw it was not Pano checked for that too


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> If any New England vet said anything like "there's less of a chance of ticks around that time?" GET A NEW VET...that is outdated, uninformed thinking...


Yeah...that struck me too. I've seen ticks in every month of the year in Connecticut, including in January in the snow, and plenty of times in February. Besides that, Lyme is well known for long periods of dormancy.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

My vet didnt say that, I did. I was trying to think of a reason why my vet wouldnt be as concerned. Were going in in july for our snap test so maybe he wasnt concerned with testing it now if were coming in in a few weeks anyways. I think he didnt think the symptoms really matched up. I dont know enough about the different diseases/conditions to be able to tell these things. I do hope its something thatll just pass like others have experienced. For now we wait for the radiologist to call


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

In laboratory situations, Lyme disease can have a six month incubation. Years ago, the first case of Lyme we diagnosed was in February, months after we saw our last tick... I can say that except for two cases of pano out of the Goldens I have owned, none of them has ever limped as pups... A constant forelimb lameness in the same leg would be cause for concern for me. If my pup had a lameness, I would not continue much heavy training as you do not want to cause your pup to compensate with the forelimb that doesn't hurt...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

The radiologist reviewed the x-rays and said everything looked completely normal. My vet said it is probably just a soft tissue injury. I don't know if I'm okay with that conclusion though. Maybe I should go somewhere else for a second opinion. I feel like I would be okay concluding that if we ruled out all other things that it could be. But idk, I just feel like if it was a soft tissue injury it would have gotten better, maybe then gotten irritated again, gotten better, etc.. not be constant for a few months. We're going in in a couple weeks to get a Snap test done, so hopefully we can rule out TBD then.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

coaraujo said:


> The radiologist reviewed the x-rays and said everything looked completely normal. My vet said it is probably just a soft tissue injury. I don't know if I'm okay with that conclusion though. Maybe I should go somewhere else for a second opinion. I feel like I would be okay concluding that if we ruled out all other things that it could be. But idk, I just feel like if it was a soft tissue injury it would have gotten better, maybe then gotten irritated again, gotten better, etc.. not be constant for a few months. We're going in in a couple weeks to get a Snap test done, so hopefully we can rule out TBD then.


In southern CT, I think a SNAP test every six months makes a ton of sense, whether you see symptoms or not. The risk of exposure is huge, and the SNAP test is relatively cheap. It also tests for heartworm, which you want to do yearly anyway as part of giving heartworm meds, so you're really only doing one extra test a year, and you buy a lot of peace of mind and a very good chance at catching things like Lyme before they progress into their more serious symptoms.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I am in favor of a second opinion.... If your dog is limping, where does he hurt?


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Im not happy with my vet at all at the moment. Oliver started having bloody diarrhea and vomiting two nights ago. I looked up the side effects of Novox and that was a serious one. My vet never told me about any of the side effects . Also when I called they said to stop it for 24 hours and start again. Why on earth would I start the medicine up again if it caused this reaction in him? He still had diarrhea today but no more blood or vomit. My poor Oliver 

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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Just wanted to give a quick update. Oliver had a snap test today and tested negative! So weve ruled out ED and lyme, not sure what this could be? 

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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Could it be Pano? Have you seeked a second opinion? We have taken so many x-rays with Bear and I bring them to every vet visit invade they need to see them. I hope you get to the bottom I it soon. 


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thats what my breeder thinks it is. My vet doesnt think so though. He gives no sign of pain with manipulation and I guess typicaly with pano you would see that. I sent the xrays to my breeders vet to check out and theres a specialist traveling to my area that my breeder wants me to see so hopefully that will help. I just dont want the poor thing to be in pain anymore

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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Maybe its a pulled muscle and needs total rest for a few weeks. We all know how much pulled muscles hurt. Try rest!! And I'd can that medication if it's causing bleeding. Good Luck


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Our vet wanted us to take x-rays again after a few weeks, b/c if it was pano lesions should show up by then. Can you tell if its joint related? We had to test for an autoimmune degenerative joint disease. That might be something to ask about. 

Eta: I don't want to freak you out. Just trying to toss out ideas. 

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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

My breeder is pretty certain it's pano, yet my vet was basically 100% sure it isn't. I'm not really sure what to think. I think it's his front right shoulder. I can definitely see the possibility of it being an injury. Does anyone have recommendations for keeping his shoulder rested? I have two adolescent goldens who love to wrestle AND have hardwood floors :no:. I'll have to ask about autoimmune degenerative joint disease. Would that have shown up on the X-Rays? I read somewhere about a dog having similar issues and it being a neck alignment injury/issue. I just feel so bad for the pup, I feel helpless. He's such a strong stoic boy.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

An autoimmune disorder would only show up in lab work. Bear had a joint tap and his joint fluid was tested. 

Maybe take him to a chiropractor? 
Get some rugs (for traction) for the house and stop the wrestling for a week and see what happens?


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Brave said:


> An autoimmune disorder would only show up in lab work. Bear had a joint tap and his joint fluid was tested.
> 
> Maybe take him to a chiropractor?
> Get some rugs (for traction) for the house and stop the wrestling for a week and see what happens?
> ...


I was thinking of getting some area rugs, but then I read somewhere on here that area rugs were actually bad? Something about booties as well. I can't remember exactly. I'll have to go reread the thread

I apologize for my poor memory. My brain is fried since I've been studying for an exam for the past few months and its this Wed. Not the best of timing!


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

The thread you were reading is mine. I am preparing our house for Bear's double TPLO surgery on 8/14. There are slip-resistant mats that go under area rugs.  we're still up in the area for the long run. For the short run we're getting non-slip rubber mats. 


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Brave said:


> The thread you were reading is mine. I am preparing our house for Bear's double TPLO surgery on 8/14. There are slip-resistant mats that go under area rugs.  we're still up in the area for the long run. For the short run we're getting non-slip rubber mats.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


We have a long skinny hallway at my boyfriend's house that poses a pretty big problem, I'll have to see if I can find a "red carpet" so to speak. As for my apartment looks like overstock.com here I come! (It's literally all hardwood and tile floor).


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I heard to try Tuesday morning and home goods as well.  you will probably need a runner for the hallway. 


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just a comment here.... with pano - I don't know if looking at the xrays they can definitely see something that tells them that's what it is. Unfortunately, it's the same thing with elbow dysplasia and OCD (bone chips in the elbow or shoulder). 

Do you have pain meds for him when he's at his worst? And have him on supplement? 

Mainly do not allow wrestling, no walks, no heavy exercise.... just take it easy and keep him rested and see if this clears up. If this a muscle or ligament issue, it should clear up within 3 weeks of complete rest. 

My golden who had both elbow dysplasia and pano around the same age as your dog - the ortho surgeon from MSU (who was the main guy to go to here in MI, unfortunately he is now retired) assured me that the pano would go away by the time he was 2. It actually cleared up between 15 and 18 months, if that helps. He had ED so it did affect him intermittently through the rest of his life, but he had a normal life. 

With Danny at his worst as a pup, he couldn't walk across a room without sitting and lifting his weight off his front legs because of the pain. It does not sound like your dog is that bad, so there is that.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Megora said:


> Just a comment here.... with pano - I don't know if looking at the xrays they can definitely see something that tells them that's what it is. Unfortunately, it's the same thing with elbow dysplasia and OCD (bone chips in the elbow or shoulder).
> 
> Do you have pain meds for him when he's at his worst? And have him on supplement?
> 
> ...


I have the generic version of Rimadyl (Novox) but it gave him bloody stool and caused him to throw up. He was on it for roughly 3 days and I didn't see any improvement (I'm not sure how long it takes for the medicine to kick in). He's at his worst when he gets up from laying down for any period of time. I'll definitely keep the boys separated for now, and only have trips outside for going to the bathroom. Unfortunately to go outside we have to go down a flight of stairs (should I carry him?). I'm not sure how extreme I should go with the rest. With an injury would I notice any tenderness when touching/squeezing/moving the leg around? I've poked and prodded (along with the vet) and he didn't show any signs of pain. He is on a joint supplement, but I'm thinking about switching (doing a search on here to see what forum members have had success with). 

Thank you everyone for your comments/advice!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

With the stairs, leash walk him. You don't want him running up and down. When outside - keep him on leash and just take it easy.

About the pain meds... I would talk to the vet about tramadol or others that would make him comfortable - again when he's at his worst and is clearly in pain. Not something to keep him on all the time. Some stiffness is not necessarily the end of the world as bad as it sounds, if it keeps him from overdoing jumping and running around.... The dogs can be together, just don't allow any roughhousing. 

I have both my guys on glycoflex III (soft chews). With Jacks, the vet told me to aim for 1200 mg of glucosamine per day. You won't see immediate results unless you do a loading dose, I think. <- Which Jacks couldn't handle.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

When he is stiff, try massaging his legs. Bear really really loves a good rub down when he is achy. And a warm bath. Those are his favorites. If it is Pano, you can try reducing his caloric intake (you will need to anyways since no exercise). Keep him lean to lessen the pressure on his joints. 

We give fish oil (2700 mg for a 70 lb dog per docs orders), glucosamine/chrondatin/MSM, and vitamin e. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

How's sweet Oliver?


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> How's sweet Oliver?


Before I answer..can I just say how WEIRD it is that you comment on this thread while at the exact same moment I'm writing you an email about PT with Bernie :bowl:. 

And unfortunately Oliver isn't doing any better, he's doing a bit worse actually . I'm trying to get him in to see a orthopedist, but am not having much luck getting into contact with the guy, so I'm going to try someone else. He's on strict bed rest this week (the poor little guy hates it), so we'll see if that helps. I just really would like a confirmed diagnosis of something so we can figure out the best way to treat him. I just feel so bad for the pup :no:.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

coaraujo said:


> Before I answer..can I just say how WEIRD it is that you comment on this thread while at the exact same moment I'm writing you an email about PT with Bernie :bowl:.
> 
> And unfortunately Oliver isn't doing any better, he's doing a bit worse actually . I'm trying to get him in to see a orthopedist, but am not having much luck getting into contact with the guy, so I'm going to try someone else. He's on strict bed rest this week (the poor little guy hates it), so we'll see if that helps. I just really would like a confirmed diagnosis of something so we can figure out the best way to treat him. I just feel so bad for the pup :no:.


Awwww, poor Ollie. I hope the orthopedist gives you good news. And I look forward to your e-mail!


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

coaraujo said:


> Before I answer..can I just say how WEIRD it is that you comment on this thread while at the exact same moment I'm writing you an email about PT with Bernie :bowl:.
> 
> And unfortunately Oliver isn't doing any better, he's doing a bit worse actually . I'm trying to get him in to see a orthopedist, but am not having much luck getting into contact with the guy, so I'm going to try someone else. He's on strict bed rest this week (the poor little guy hates it), so we'll see if that helps. I just really would like a confirmed diagnosis of something so we can figure out the best way to treat him. I just feel so bad for the pup :no:.


I am so sorry...it must be so frustrating to keep him so calm, knowing how bubbly he is. Liza and I are starting classes in South Norwalk at August 10. Maybe we can meet up some Saturday, just to say hi...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

inge said:


> I am so sorry...it must be so frustrating to keep him so calm, knowing how bubbly he is. Liza and I are starting classes in South Norwalk at August 10. Maybe we can meet up some Saturday, just to say hi...


That would be fantastic!! You are welcome to stop by any time . I know the boys would love a visit from pretty Liza. She's going to make such a great therapy dog. It is definitely really frustrating- and honestly, just down-right sad, keeping him so calm. He just goes to the door and cries. It's heart breaking. I'm wondering if maybe swimming would be good for him? I'm going to start doing some intense mental training games to try and tire him out that way. I'm taking him out to dinner tomorrow at a dog-friendly restaurant as well. I figure meeting and greeting people will tire him out too. I just hate being so helpless, I don't know how to make him more comfortable .


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

coaraujo said:


> That would be fantastic!! You are welcome to stop by any time . I know the boys would love a visit from pretty Liza. She's going to make such a great therapy dog. It is definitely really frustrating- and honestly, just down-right sad, keeping him so calm. He just goes to the door and cries. It's heart breaking. I'm wondering if maybe swimming would be good for him? I'm going to start doing some intense mental training games to try and tire him out that way. I'm taking him out to dinner tomorrow at a dog-friendly restaurant as well. I figure meeting and greeting people will tire him out too. I just hate being so helpless, I don't know how to make him more comfortable .


Swimming might actually be a good idea. At Dog Gone Smart in S-Norwalk they have a special pool for dogs and trainers to assist.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Do you have a food puzzle? You can give him meals that way and really tax his brain.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Hope everything works out ok.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

murphy1 said:


> Hope everything works out ok.


Thank you (and everyone!) for your positive thoughts. Unfortunately, however, Oliver is not getting better and is, in fact, getting worse . I took him to the vet Saturday because Friday at Daycare the dogsitter noticed his gait was very off, that his back legs weren't working properly. Here is an email I wrote to my breeder updating her on how Oliver is doing:



> I tried doing some intense crate rest for Oliver for the past week/week and a half that way if it was a soft tissue injury it would get some time to heal. Unfortunately it has only been getting worse and now he is having issues with his back legs. I called the vet immediately to bring him in to get checked out again and get X-Rays done on his hips. His back legs are very strange when he walks. Its somewhat like a limp, but its really waddle-like. He walks like he's walking on a tight rope, his feet step inward as he walks. Its definitely hurting him. His front leg limp is also worse. The vet gave me tramadol for the pain since he reacted so badly to the Novox. They also did a blood panel on him. I guess my clinic is getting bought out by a new vet (Battersby I think is the name of the new vet - It's a wife and husband). He knows Steckel and has worked with him before so I think that is a good sign since my current vet didn't know who Steckel was. The new vets have owned goldens so at least they have some first-hand experience with the breed. I gave Oliver Tramadol this morning for pain because he seemed to be limping especially severly. It hasn't seemed to have much effect yet. I hope the little guy can get some relief .
> 
> As for results, all the vets that have looked at the front leg X-Rays have said they look completely normal. They sent all the X-Rays out to Steckel today and he should get back to them today or tomorrow with details about an appointment to see Oliver. My vet said that the hip X-Rays look pretty normal, a slight possibility that he's mildly dysplastic, but Steckel will be able to tell us that information. My vet also said that even if he is mildly dysplastic that with how the X-Rays look it most likely wouldn't cause him to limp/walk as bad as he is. When the vet was showing me the X-Rays she was trying to explain to me how they're rated and evaluated. She said they look for full coverage of the socket around the hip ball. She said that part of Oliver's hips look good and the socket is tight. But the hip ball has a flat edge so they don't fit perfectly together. Thats where she said Steckel will come in and let us know what that means. She also said that could just be a positioning issue and he could be completely fine. She did the X-Rays with Oliver awake because in case Steckel wants to put him under during the appointment she didn't want Oliver to have to be sedated twice in a week span. So he might get some more done when Steckel sees him depending on what Steckel thinks of the quality of the X-Ray. We got the results back from the blood test and everything was normal except for his White Blood Cell count which was high (Neutrophils). The clinic said that could be from a possible infection, stress, etc so they're going to wait to do further testing on that until Steckel sees him and shares his opinion.
> 
> I will keep you updated as the week goes on. I am very worried about him. He's still his happy-go-lucky self so that's good, but he's definitely been more self-limiting lately.


My breeder called me immediately after reading this and she is very concerned. I just don't know what to do to get answers faster. She said to see if the vets had checked his CPK levels since that involves the muscles and could possibly explain whats going on. I'll be calling first thing in the morning when they open. I'm trying not to freak out, but its almost impossible. God I hope its nothing life threatening.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Hi!


I am sooo sooo sorry to hear of these developments. Could it be back pain or something back/spinal related? I assume Selktal (spelling) is an orthopedic vet. Hopefully they can shed some light on the situation. Praying for answers!!

((Hugs))


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Oh no, this is not at all what I was hoping for....I am so very, very sorry, that sweet goofy boy! Please keep us informed...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thank you both for your replies. I'll have to ask the vet that. Dr. Robert Steckel (Rockland County NY and White Plains NY Emergency Veterinarian - Veterinarians - Valley Cottage Animal Hospital - 24-Hour Pet Emergency Care, Veterinary Medicine, Avian and Exotic Pet Medicine and Advanced Surgical Care for animals in White Plains, We) is an orthopedic surgeon. So hopefully he'll have some answers for us  . My breeder recommended taking him to AMC (I think?) or Cornell if I'm not getting answers quick enough at my regular vet. I am so tired of waiting. I want answers now, but I guess there's not much we can find out until the orthopedist sees him. I think I need to make a list of things to ask the vet so I don't forget: spine/back related, CPK test, autoimmune issue. I just keep telling myself to breathe. And of course the dogsitter at the daycare told me a story of a 5 month old Golden who started limping like Oliver and ended up having extremely severe HD and had to be put down at 6 months. That made me feel great...NOT . Would bone cancer or leukemia (of the bone marrow) be a concern? Now that it seems like most hip and elbow disorders like dysplasia, pano, OCD, etc are ruled out I'm really nervous that it could be something like cancer.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

You puppy is in my prayers tonight. I cannot imagine how worried you must be. Keep us posted here....we all care.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

That dogsitter is a jerk...that's just not a story you tell to somebody who's worried. (I'm sure she's lovely, but that was tactless).

I wouldn't let your mind wander to exotic things like cancer. Limping really isn't the first sign of something like that 99.9% of the time. My guess is that, if his hips really aren't bad, that there's a joint or ligament problem somewhere further down the line of the leg, like the patella. I think asking about the back is smart too.

Many of these problems have straightforward solutions once they're identified. So I would try not to play these worst-case scenarios out in your head too much if you can avoid it.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Im trying to stay positive and avoid thinking worst case scenario, but it just seems like everything that wouldnt be that bad has been ruled out so im scared for whats left that it could be. His condition seems to just keep escalating. He wont do stairs and is very reluctant to move now. Yesterday he tried walking across the room and collapsed and gave up. Its terrifying. My breeders also very worried which makes me feel like something could be terribly wrong. But youre right playing worst case scenarios in my head isnt going to help. Hopefully its something like a spine issue or patella issue where its not life threatening. 

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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I know I is hard it is to have a sick dog and not knowing what it is, you start googling all the symptoms and then the whole Internet wisdom freaks you out. Take it one day at a time, try to find small things that he can do and enjoys (did you try swimming yet?), go for a pick nick in the garden with his favorite snacks and enjoy having him in your lap. Hugs from me and a lick from Liza!


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I know how hard it is to see your pup get worse and worse and have no answers. All you can do is take each day, each hour, each minute, each step, each smile, each victory one at a time. There will be heartaches. And meltdowns. Freak outs and moments of peace. Try to roll with the punches. I know. Boy do I know. How hard it is. But all you can do is your best and that is the most you can ask for. 

When do you see the surgeon? 


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

I am so very sorry to hear about Oliver, my thoughts and prayers go out to you and him.

I hope you're able to get some answers very soon and help for him.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Update from the vet. We are set to see the ortho either tomorrow or Thurs. The vet said we can discuss how we will proceed (what tests/etc) during the visit. The ortho did review the x-rays. This is an email from my bf recapping the conversation with the vet:



> I called and spoke with the new Dr., he sounds like a really nice guy and very considerate. He told me that he sent the x-rays to Steckal yesterday and Steckal agreed that he didn't see anything wrong with the bones. He said there could obviously be other issues with muscles, ligaments, etc. but the bones all look fine and that most dogs would be jealous of Oliver's hips. He took the call quickly and didn't have the blood results in front of him, but he said that the CPK probably wouldn't give us a good indication of the underlying issue of the problem, but he said we could still discuss that when we bring Oliver in. He's calling Steckal back right now to set up a time for him to meet with Oliver (he said it should be tomorrow or Thursday) so hopefully he'll call back soon with a time. I told him how it's gotten noticeably worse and got to the point where I had to carry him up the stairs this morning and he said that's a pretty good sign that something is really bothering him since Golden's don't let things bother them like you said. SO I stressed to him that we're pretty stressed about this and looking for answers asap so he understands that and should hopefully be calling me back shortly with an appointment time.


 
Thank you all for your prayers and support. Its killing me to see him this way and not being able to do anything about it. I think this guy deserves some steak for dinner!


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Gosh, I'm so sorry about all of this. No one should have to suffer that all-too-familiar pit in the stomach that comes from thinking the worst. Oliver is just a puppy  Praying you get some answers soon. Keep us posted.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

How is Oliver today? 


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Checking in as well...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Hey Everyone,

Oliver is not doing any better. I think his back legs are getting a bit worse, but its hard to tell. It comes in waves. Sometimes he'll get really excited and it seems like he's all better and then the next moment he can barely get across the room. I think when he gets excited (like when I get home from work) he just doesn't care about the pain because he's so happy. The poor guy. I've been getting paranoid though I think. His gums are a dark grey purplish color not bright pink. I called the vet and told them and they said that as long as they're not pale grey he's fine. They said they looked fine Saturday and a serious injury would have had to happen since then to have them change to pale. He'll be seeing the ortho Friday morning at 8 am. My breeder is really worried though and she wants me to take him somewhere else. She's not happy with their slow progress. I don't know what to do. He's still eating fine and seems upbeat. He's not listening as much now though. I'm not sure if thats because he's not feeling well or if its because he's a teenager.

ETA: His eyes also don't seem as clear. The whites on the outer corners has some brown right next to the iris almost as if the brown iris color seeped out (sorry for the bad description). Is that normal? I feel like I'm looking over him everywhere and can't remember what is normal for him or not 

They definitely don't look like this: http://www.petinsurance.com/healthz...ia/All PHZ Images/Article images/PRAexam.ashx


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Here is a picture of his gums. They don't look as bad as I remember (probably because I'm going a bit crazy) but it could also be my boyfriends camera. Someone say they look normal - please! It says they're supposed to be light salmony pink or black. But his are purplish and dark.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I think they look fine. Trust me. When his gums go pale, you will know!! 

Deep breath. I'll try to get Bear, and take a picture of his gums. His are a combination of black and pink. So hard to tell. 


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Does his breeder have any ideas what may be wrong with him? Or know someone else you might go to sooner? On the other hand, you trust the specialist you are going to, right? Just one more day...keep it together, girl..


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

His breeder is stumped. Theres another vet in my town that the HVGRC has their clinics at that she wants me to try. Were at the vet now waiting for the ortho. Praying for answers

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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

coaraujo said:


> Thank you (and everyone!) for your positive thoughts. Unfortunately, however, Oliver is not getting better and is, in fact, getting worse . I took him to the vet Saturday because Friday at Daycare the dogsitter noticed his gait was very off, that his back legs weren't working properly. Here is an email I wrote to my breeder updating her on how Oliver is doing:
> 
> 
> 
> My breeder called me immediately after reading this and she is very concerned. I just don't know what to do to get answers faster. She said to see if the vets had checked his CPK levels since that involves the muscles and could possibly explain whats going on. I'll be calling first thing in the morning when they open. I'm trying not to freak out, but its almost impossible. God I hope its nothing life threatening.


Oh no!  I am so sorry that you are going through this dear! I am praying for your dear Oliver.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

coaraujo said:


> ETA: His eyes also don't seem as clear. The whites on the outer corners has some brown right next to the iris almost as if the brown iris color seeped out (sorry for the bad description). Is that normal? I feel like I'm looking over him everywhere and can't remember what is normal for him or not
> 
> They definitely don't look like this: http://www.petinsurance.com/healthz...ia/All PHZ Images/Article images/PRAexam.ashx


What you're describing sounds like the coloring of Mercy's eyes lately. I strongly believe that the eye problem is something totally separate from the othopaedic problems he's having.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Comet has some brown in his whites, and he's passed CERF a couple of times with it. I'm sure they'd have said something about it if it were a problem.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I haven't been following this thread closely but if your vet isn't able to diagnose the problem, 2 resources in the area are the Cornell Veterinary center in Stamford, which should be excellent, and the Animal Medical center in Manhattan.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

coaraujo said:


> Here is a picture of his gums. They don't look as bad as I remember (probably because I'm going a bit crazy) but it could also be my boyfriends camera. Someone say they look normal - please! It says they're supposed to be light salmony pink or black. But his are purplish and dark.


They look exactly like Kea's  I actually noticed that her tongue and gums started to look a little darker right around the time we began raw feeding. I am going to ask the vet about it at our next appointment. I am quite certain she will tell me I'm nuts. I lost a dog in the past to a sudden internal bleed related to what we think was hemangiosarcoma. Her gums were so pale they were almost white, and capillary refill was way off - if you press on the gum with your finger, it should return to its previous color in a few seconds. I can't blame you for worrying. Do you have a teaching hospital nearby you could visit? It's hard to know what kind of specialist to see since they haven't been able to pin down the exact problem. Sending hugs and prayers for you, your boyfriend, and sweet Oliver.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Hey all! I just got back from our appointment with Steckel. He did a very thorough exam of Ollie, felt all his muscles, all four legs, neck, and spine. He had me walk him a lot to watch his limp and gait. Checked over his x-rays again. He said that structurally he's perfect. He has very strong symmetrical muscle done. His x-rays look great, He has great conformation. That all golden's should be jealous of him because he's put together really well. He said that if it was going to be any sort of joint issue like ED or HD that we'd already be seeing signs of it (probably would have at 6 months) on X-rays. Oliver exhibited no signs of pain during the exam and Steckel said he knows where to push and prod where, if he was hurting, he would act out. Our vet brought up his high WBC count which was 18 and I guess normal is up to 16.5. Steckel said that that could just be from slight inflammation or just be nothing at all since it is barely out of range. He said that some of the time its just growing pains and that puppies go through gangly awkward stages so Oliver will very likely just grow out of this and its just sore from growing (its not pano though). He said that I should be relieved because Oliver showed no signs in any of the tests that Steckel did of anything wrong so we have ruled out all serious diseases that you'd see in dog his age and in his breed. The vet also said that we can run a more extensive tick panel if we want but that typically if he did have erylichiosis (sp?) that the WBC would be off the charts, and that also its not common in this area at all. And he's exhibiting no other symptoms. He seems to be in perfect health otherwise. Apparently his muscles are perfect, no signs of atrophy or lameness or weakness. Steckel did say that his gait resembled a dog who would have HD, but that his X-rays are great along with muscles and structure. He recommended taking him on a lot of conditioning walks. What are your thoughts? I just don't understand how he can be perfectly healthy and put together, yet limp and hobble. His limp is getting worse and spread to his back legs. I just don't understand. I still have that heavy weight hanging over me. I just feel like something is not right. Gums and eyes are fine btw (I'm obviously a little paranoid ). It might be time to take him to Cornell. Maybe I'll give him a week with some nice conditioning walks and see if he improves.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

KeaColorado said:


> They look exactly like Kea's  I actually noticed that her tongue and gums started to look a little darker right around the time we began raw feeding. I am going to ask the vet about it at our next appointment. I am quite certain she will tell me I'm nuts. I lost a dog in the past to a sudden internal bleed related to what we think was hemangiosarcoma. Her gums were so pale they were almost white, and capillary refill was way off - if you press on the gum with your finger, it should return to its previous color in a few seconds. I can't blame you for worrying. Do you have a teaching hospital nearby you could visit? It's hard to know what kind of specialist to see since they haven't been able to pin down the exact problem. Sending hugs and prayers for you, your boyfriend, and sweet Oliver.


Thank you for your response! That makes me feel a lot better that they look like Kea's. We did do the capillary refill test and his are fine. I just panicked because Bernie's are that light salmony pink and Oliver's are a bit more purpley. But it looks like its completely normal, thank goodness! There are a couple teaching hospitals close by. I think that might be our next step. I just don't think I can be okay with the answer we've been given. Maybe they are right (I really hope they are!) and nothing is wrong. I just don't think I'll get any peace of mind until we've done more thorough testing.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

OH! and of course Oliver somehow managed to make his limp barely noticeable at the vet this morning. I swear he's like a car!. It stalls and breaks and you bring it to the mechanic and it runs fine. Oliver was heeling like a champ with his prancing walk as if he'd never limped a day in his life! Even the times when you could see the limp it was pretty faint (in both the front and back leg). The gait abnormality was very apparent still though. Then we get home and he's back to his usual huge limp.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

I'd be doing the same thing. We had a strange incident last summer, before starting raw feeding, when Kea had a 102 fever and her gums were bleeding. She was lethargic and not herself. We went to our regular vet, he put her on rimadyl and antibiotics (couldn't figure out what the problem was). 6 hours later, she had gotten worse, so we ended up in the ER all night. They did a bunch of tests, x-rays, etc. and couldn't find anything wrong. WBC count was only slightly elevated. They ended up giving her fluids and a higher dose of antibiotics. The next day, I took her to my holistic vet, who put her on a detox tincture, but still no answers. She was fine after that. It was so scary! The only thing I could think of was that she was a naughty girl and swam in an irrigation ditch behind a budweiser plant, and maybe ingested some of the water.

I would expect a specialist to keep searching until you have some answers, especially if he still has these symptoms. I'd be more than a little frustrated with a prescription of conditioning walks, especially if your gut is telling you otherwise. Keep us posted, as I know you will.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

KeaColorado said:


> I'd be doing the same thing. We had a strange incident last summer, before starting raw feeding, when Kea had a 102 fever and her gums were bleeding. She was lethargic and not herself. We went to our regular vet, he put her on rimadyl and antibiotics (couldn't figure out what the problem was). 6 hours later, she had gotten worse, so we ended up in the ER all night. They did a bunch of tests, x-rays, etc. and couldn't find anything wrong. WBC count was only slightly elevated. They ended up giving her fluids and a higher dose of antibiotics. The next day, I took her to my holistic vet, who put her on a detox tincture, but still no answers. She was fine after that. It was so scary! The only thing I could think of was that she was a naughty girl and swam in an irrigation ditch behind a budweiser plant, and maybe ingested some of the water.
> 
> I would expect a specialist to keep searching until you have some answers, especially if he still has these symptoms. I'd be more than a little frustrated with a prescription of conditioning walks, especially if your gut is telling you otherwise. Keep us posted, as I know you will.


My breeder has brought up the idea that maybe he has some nutrient deficiency from feeding raw incorrectly. Does anyone know what signs would show from that? I feel like a nutrient deficiency would show in his skin/coat/attitude/energy etc. He's full of life, bright eyed, full appetite, not the least bit lethargic, shiny soft coat. Could that be it? I bought a bunch of books and did a lot of research on raw so I felt confident, but at this point I'm not about to rule anything out. 

What is a detox tincture?


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

coaraujo said:


> OH! and of course Oliver somehow managed to make his limp barely noticeable at the vet this morning. I swear he's like a car!. It stalls and breaks and you bring it to the mechanic and it runs fine. Oliver was heeling like a champ with his prancing walk as if he'd never limped a day in his life! Even the times when you could see the limp it was pretty faint (in both the front and back leg). The gait abnormality was very apparent still though. Then we get home and he's back to his usual huge limp.


Boy, do I know that situation! Me telling the technician that Tess is very lethargic and not herself, in comes the specialist and who is jumping and twirling? You guess...but ok, so they more or less ruled out that it has to do with his bone structure, great. But do they know of anything else that gives the same strange limping? Or do you have to go to a neurologist for questions like that?


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

The detox thing was a mix of herbs, I can't remember exactly what was in there, but milk thistle among other things. This particular vet practices traditional chinese medicine, but actually went to vet school with the owner of the conventional practice we go to, and the two of them work well together. I'm a big believer in both perspectives. 

As for the raw, if you're worried, maybe it might make sense to consult a canine nutritionist? I remember seeing a sticky in the diet and feeding section with a website for a nutritionist who does phone consults. It might be worth it for peace of mind, to make sure he's not lacking anything or getting too much of something else. That's what I would do.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

inge said:


> Boy, do I know that situation! Me telling the technician that Tess is very lethargic and not herself, in comes the specialist and who is jumping and twirling? You guess...but ok, so they more or less ruled out that it has to do with his bone structure, great. But do they know of anything else that gives the same strange limping? Or do you have to go to a neurologist for questions like that?


I'm not sure, that's why I think a visit to Cornell might be in order. I'll see what my breeder's thoughts are when she gets back to me.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Oh, and don't let anyone tell you the specialist said he is fine and leave it at that (I had a friend telling me that when the vet the first time didn't think Tess could have Myositis, mainly because I 'read too much' on the Internet...): you know your boy.


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

Get another opinion. If there is something early intervention may make all the difference.
Tumeric is a a natural anti inflamatory but I don't know if dogs can take it. It has made a huge difference in my bone on bone knee. Just a suggestion. Hope everything works out OK.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

inge said:


> Oh, and don't let anyone tell you the specialist said he is fine and leave it at that (I had a friend telling me that when the vet the first time didn't think Tess could have Myositis, mainly because I 'read too much' on the Internet...): you know your boy.


Don't you just hate that? It is because of THIS attitude that I quit my vet.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

So I decided to wait a week before making any decisions about how to proceed after our last vet visit. I wanted to see if there was any improvement. And there has been! Oliver's limp on his front leg is much less noticeable and you can't really see the limp on his back leg as of right now. His gait is still very strange. I also noticed something new. It appears that he has some weakness with his left back leg. I'm wondering if maybe this is causing the gait abnormality. I noticed that sometimes when he goes to get up or lay down his left back leg will give out. I also notice it when he marks outside. He always lifts his right leg when he pees, so he's putting weight on his front legs and left back leg. Some of the time he'll start walking before putting his right back leg back on the ground. As soon as he takes a step with his front leg his left back leg gives out. He's almost fallen over a couple times from it. If you've ever been walking and had your knee give out, it looks exactly like that. He's also always had trouble getting up on the bed or couch unless he runs and jumps. But if he has his front paws on the bed we've always had to lift his rear end. He can't hop up like Bernie does. Does this ring any bells to anyone? I'm thinking of making another appointment with my vet to talk about this with him.

Thank you everyone for your support and input!


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