# How do you train contacts?



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

In training we do 2 on 2 off, because when you're actually running you won't be stopping but you can be pretty sure they'll at least hit the contact. Otherwise they tend to vault right over it.
I make the tito monster SIT on the contact, with 2 on 2 off. Takes the pressure of that forward momentum off his shoulders and elbows. As soon as his head comes up over the top of the A-frame, I'm screaming BOTTOM BOTTOM which he knows means sit your blonde arse down at the end. On the dog walk, I'm yelling it before he hits the downward slope so it's in his mind. Otherwise, I think they are moving too fast and by the time the command hits their brain they're off the obstacle.
Can't help you on the teeter, we're still working on it.....
Gotta run, we've got agility class in 1/2 hour, LOL!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I do a 2/2 with Quiz and I do make him stop at the bottom each time. He's a very fast dog, so even with stopping briefly and waiting for my release, he still comes in way under course time.

I personally think it's hard to teach a consistent running contact where you are certain that the dog REALLY understands his specific job. Although, if you're interested, Rachel Saunders has a DVD just on running contacts. You can order if off Clean Run.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

With Teller have a sit on the dogwalk and the teeter - I had a running DW contact but I wanted more control. Murphy has always had a sit on the DW and I've never taught a contact on the teeter. Murphy and Teller have running contact on the a-frame - with Murphy I used a target - put a paw on the target. I can count on one hand how manmy times he's missed an a-frame contact in trial and can count on one finger how many times he's been called for it... With Teller my criteria was running to the end/bottom and has been since he was a puppy on a very low a-frame. The major difference between the two is striding - Teller's stride is one up, one over and then typically one down. I reinforce at the bottom of the a-frame often (almost always).

I don't like 2o/2o for either of them on the a-frame - too much crashing down on their shoulders - but that's just me - I know a lot of goldens and other big dogs that have beautiful 2/2 or 1RT contacts and have physically held up for years of competition - I just won't ask for it.

FWIW, with Teller I had a running contact on the dogwalk up until last week - and in a week I put on a sit - even cooler since I don't have a DW to train on at home. I was curious to see how it held up in trial and it did...He's still a young green dog, but I love that I can mix things up with him!


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

I do 2o2o also. It really doesn't impact our times because the second she gives me the 2o2o, I tell her okay and quite frankly, it gives you that extra split second to direct your dog where you want to go. I also think safety is an important factor. I dont want my dog flying off a moving teeter or jumping from the top of an A frame (although the shoulder arguement is a good one). I see a LOT of sloppy performances that start with sloppy contacts, all in the name of speed (but the funny thing is they're generally quite slow in the end because there is a lot of wasted energy and very few tight turns). My advice is ignore the speed. It will take care of itself with training and confidence. As for the teeter, Sydney will run full speed down the thing, it knocks the ground and she puts her to front feet in the dirt. She is almost always standing in the contact zone, waiting for the thing to touch down. Once they have the confidence (which she tends to be very confident), it becomes less and less of an issue. She knows when she hears the word "teeter", that the thing is going to move under her feet and is okay with that. I'm not sure Paige will be. 

I really (strongly) suggest 2o2o. I know people that train running contacts, but find that sloppiness can become an issue, because the dog thinks it can ignore the zone and keep going, and with a dog whose stride is longer than the contact zone, you can miss out on the contacts. In CKC, that's an automatic NQ (not sure about other venues), so its really not worth it to me (sacrificing a Q for a faster performance, when it would have only cost you half a second if you're on the ball). Good luck!! BJ


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I think it's consistency - you get what you train. If you accept a marginal contact behavior in training you'll have marginal contact performance in trial. If you are consistent in reinforcing the contact behavior of your choice then you have a much greater likelihood of having a consistent trialing performance. I don't think any one contact behavior applies to all dogs - even with the same handler. Murphy's striding puts him out of the a-frame contact - Teller's natural striding puts him right at the base - so I've trained them differently. Some dogs have SUPER hindend awareness and can safely control their bodies on a 2o/2o contact with speed. I'd rather have a consistent and predictable a-frame than a faster one with a gamble on the contact...

I think BJ and I are basically saying the same thing - choose the method that's best for your dog.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

I have a 2o2o on my older guy -- okay in an ideal world I'd have a 2o2o on him, instead we sometimes have a 2o2o, sometimes a running, and sometimes we just jump off the top of the a-frame. :doh: Actually we've been putting a lot of time to getting him to meet the 2o2o criteria, he was my first agility dog and we had no idea what we were doing when we started, so contacts have been a struggle for a while with him. In order to get him to perform a 2o2o, we actually had to work on his striding up and over the a-frame.

I need to decide what I'm going to train my puppy to do. It will most probably be a 2o2o, but I need to decided what criteria I want from him and stick to it. I've started working on some back-chaining of the contacts with the puppy and some board work. I'm waiting for him to get older to start the serious training.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Erica, do you think the sit at the bottoms of the A-frame and dogwalk takes enough pressure off their shoulders when we do the 2o2o? My trainer (who has berners) says it does, but I'm curious your opinion.
And back to the original question, I also am usually shouting "EASY EASY EASY" as Tito is approaching any of the contact obstacles to slow him down a bit, and then as soon as his head starts to clear the top of the A, or he gets about 3/4 of the way down the dog walk, I'm screaming BOTTOM BOTTOM BOTTOM so he knows he HAS to sit at the end of it.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Erica, do you think the sit at the bottoms of the A-frame and dogwalk takes enough pressure off their shoulders when we do the 2o2o? My trainer (who has berners) says it does, but I'm curious your opinion.


Tough question and it depends on what you are comfortable with. IMO (and let me stress the IMO) the sit does not change the force significantly over the 2o/2o on the a-frame. But..that's my choice for my dogs and it depends on the overall contact behavior and the dog's own tendency to either be careful about his body or throw caution to the wind. 



hotel4dogs said:


> And back to the original question, I also am usually shouting "EASY EASY EASY" as Tito is approaching any of the contact obstacles to slow him down a bit, and then as soon as his head starts to clear the top of the A, or he gets about 3/4 of the way down the dog walk, I'm screaming BOTTOM BOTTOM BOTTOM so he knows he HAS to sit at the end of it.


OK, so...let me ask you this. If you trained a behavior in obedience (lets say the drop on recall) do you have to scream DOWN DOWN DOWN DOWN so that he knows that he has to drop when you ask him to do so? Is he supposed to drop on the first down or the fifth down? {grin} No, you teach him his job in a particular exercise.

I generally run my dogs silently - I save my verbal commands for when I really need them. A dogwalk command would be "up" and then a "sit". I find that the more information people are yelling at their dogs the less they listen. Next time you run your dog don't say anything - I bet he does just as well with you running silently. Same thing with discriminations - you could yell anything you want and if your body is correct they will take the correct obstacle. 

So back to the question, if your dog knows what the expectation is of him on say the dogwalk - if you have trained the whole behavior (hit the contact, run up, run over, run down and sit) what part is the EASY EASY EASY? And if you say EASY EASY EASY which one of those means run down to the end at sit? And if you don't say BOTTOM BOTTOM BOTTOM what does he do? If he doesn't do his contact behavior independently in training then he doesn't understand the whole behavior yet and I'd be putting him on just the contact end and rewarding just the contact behavior. 

To put it another way its not MY job to hit the contact - it's his. BUT he's got to understand what the entire obstacle performance - so it's MY job to reinforce the behavior that I want and to break the big picture into smaller parts so that he can be successful.

Clear as mud?

Erica


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Erica, do you think the sit at the bottoms of the A-frame and dogwalk takes enough pressure off their shoulders when we do the 2o2o? My trainer (who has berners) says it does, but I'm curious your opinion.
> And back to the original question, I also am usually shouting "EASY EASY EASY" as Tito is approaching any of the contact obstacles to slow him down a bit, and then as soon as his head starts to clear the top of the A, or he gets about 3/4 of the way down the dog walk, I'm screaming BOTTOM BOTTOM BOTTOM so he knows he HAS to sit at the end of it.


Just my two cents:

I don't think it's the nose bump to the target or the sit as the 2/2 that specifically has anything to do with pressure on the shoulders, rather, it's HOW they descend the obstacle in preparation of hitting the end. Ideally, you see a weight shift to over the back legs as they're approaching the end of the equipment - almost like you get when you do a fold-back down. 

I'm not sure which method has more influence on how the dog descends. Probably depends on the dog. The rear weight shift was never explanied to me in the early days of Quiz' training; he was my first agility dog. He pile drives more than I'd like. I think I'll train a down on the contacts w/ my next dog.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Since Belle is the only dog "I" trained not really sure what we did LOL Basically it is 2/2 with a stop or sit at the bottom. Belle hates to sit (don't know why) in general so as long as she stays we don't care. At first she was SO slow I didn't stop her at all because we could not start her again. I think I personally understood what I needed for the contacts after our first trial she was excited and she jumped off the A frame. We are solid now. 

I do not have a running teeter. Belle always stops at the middle, at first I realized I was stopping there too, I stopped my behavior but she has kept up hers. She has run across the teeter a total of 3 times. Each time it drops so hard and she gets bounced to oblivion she gets scared. She has not gotten the concept, run-tip-run oh well. 

I over emphasize EVERYTHING in class. That way I don't have to worry at a trial.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

My first dog (Sammy) I did not train anything, but then went back and trained a 2o2o. His contacts are iffy in competition. He rarely misses them, but he also rarely stops... Which unless I am on top of what is next has lead to a few off-courses.

My second dog (Barley) was also trained a 2o2o from the beginning, but I have realized is it based on my position. If I stop short, so does he... But it still works for us...

With Mira I am training a 2o2o but I am really trying to reinforce the lowered body posture and independence using shaping/clicker. I am rewarding sometimes by walking over to her and giving her a treat low, throwing treats on the ground near her or tossing a toy. I am alternating where I stand and whether I move. I am also alternating between a white target, plexi-glass and nothing. We will see how this one goes!

My ideal contact performance would be what Jane Simmons-Moake has with her dogs, a very quick 2o2o with the ability of a quick release, so it can almost look like a running contact. I think hers looks very nice!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I train 3 different dogs.
There's the Tito I train in obedience, and he requires one and only one command for a performance. Never gets a second one. He's very calm, focused, and stable.
Then there's the Tito I train in conformation. He gets to play and act silly and pretty much do whatever he wants, within reason.
Then there's the wild Tito I train (and don't trial, BTW) in agility. He's a whirling dervish that needs to start hearing that command and hear it again and again before he processes it. 
That said, we don't trial in agility, we just do it for fun. He LOVES it, and we need one event where I truly don't care what happens as long as we're both having a good time, and he's not getting hurt. Of course, some day I"ll probably eat those words....



MurphyTeller said:


> Tough question and it depends on what you are comfortable with. IMO (and let me stress the IMO) the sit does not change the force significantly over the 2o/2o on the a-frame. But..that's my choice for my dogs and it depends on the overall contact behavior and the dog's own tendency to either be careful about his body or throw caution to the wind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That one was worth more than two cents for sure.
I'm going to try to watch him and see next time we're at class. I think in order to sit he has to shift backward, but I don't know at what point he's making the weight shift. 
Interesting.



FlyingQuizini said:


> Just my two cents:
> 
> I don't think it's the nose bump to the target or the sit as the 2/2 that specifically has anything to do with pressure on the shoulders, rather, it's HOW they descend the obstacle in preparation of hitting the end. Ideally, you see a weight shift to over the back legs as they're approaching the end of the equipment - almost like you get when you do a fold-back down.
> 
> I'm not sure which method has more influence on how the dog descends. Probably depends on the dog. The rear weight shift was never explanied to me in the early days of Quiz' training; he was my first agility dog. He pile drives more than I'd like. I think I'll train a down on the contacts w/ my next dog.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

There is a pretty good article on the topic that FlyingQuizini is talking about in a old Clean Run. Lucky for us it is a sample issue online! (Also when I got this issue in the mail, it is when I had my "eureka" moment about WHY we use the target plate...)

The article is called Balance and Rhythm on the A-Frame

Here is a link to the free sample issue, the article starts on page 33
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/cleanrun/1105/


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

A true running contact (in which the dog is running at full stride and doesn't slow down or break stride in any way) is very difficult to train on the dogwalk. I got lucky with my Boo and he naturally does a running A-frame (he's 22" tall). It depends on the dog, you need the dog to be athletic and running fast enough to get that striding right, but it's nice when it does.

Here's an example of his A-frame (it's at around 27 seconds in the video):






For most dogs any method of training 2o2o, stopping, etc will end up with a safe performance of the A-frame (because most dogs aren't going fast enough that weight shifting, etc is an issue). I think that 2o2o when trained properly gives the combination of speed, safety, and reliability that I am most comfortable with. The descending the A-frame and touching the nose target should be one fluid motion, with the dog's head down and weight back as he descends. You should definitely read the article that sammydog linked to. I consider actually putting food on the target a bit questionable because then the dog gets the reward whether or not he performed the correct behavior (I'd prefer clicker training a nose touch) but other than that it's a great method.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I'm sorry this reply is late and I see most of us Agility people have put our 2 cents in. But I'd like mine in...even thought it's probably dumb half the time, but I do know what I'm talking about here!

With Maddie I've never actually had a problem with her jumping off contacts. She never is too fast on them. But I do a 2o/2o with her. I make her hit the ground on all contact obstacles and then she waits for me to release her. A few people in my class can actually lead out with their dogs a few obstacles and they can still have a good time, even though we are just training. I like this way better than what stupid ol' 4-H taught us. It's a lot safer as far as time. Although I don't have contacts at home I still am able to practice at class with what I want her to do. 

I think someone said in one of their posts that consistency is key. You are CORRECT! You can't not make them stop one time and then the next make them stop. You HAVE to be consistent in your training, or then the dog will become very confused and then run away from the problem. (At least that's what Maddie does.)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh, "Tito's Targets" are a big joke in our agility class. He INSISTS on retrieving all of them. ALL of them. He will take an obstacle, stop, pick up the target, then go on with the target in his mouth. When he gets to the next target, he stops, drops the one he has on top of it, picks both up, and keeps going with both in his mouth, and so on. Luckily there are normally only 2 or 3 targets on a course.
This gets very tedious, so now before the Tito Monster runs, every target has to be up off the course. Where he can't see it. Or know it's there. Or know it's ever BEEN there. You get the idea.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> oh, "Tito's Targets" are a big joke in our agility class. He INSISTS on retrieving all of them. ALL of them. He will take an obstacle, stop, pick up the target, then go on with the target in his mouth. When he gets to the next target, he stops, drops the one he has on top of it, picks both up, and keeps going with both in his mouth, and so on. Luckily there are normally only 2 or 3 targets on a course.
> This gets very tedious, so now before the Tito Monster runs, every target has to be up off the course. Where he can't see it. Or know it's there. Or know it's ever BEEN there. You get the idea.


Or, just before you're ready to clean up, you could run Tito and he could pick up all the targets so they can be put away. Why didn't I think of that?? :doh: ROFL.... I imagine its probably one of those "its only funny when its not YOUR dog" things? BJ


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yes, it's honestly rather embarrassing. He will even dig at them to get one edge to stick up (it's a sand/recycled rubber tire floor, real loose) so he can get them all in his mouth at once. Tends to REALLY slow your dog down on the run.....



Kohanagold said:


> Or, just before you're ready to clean up, you could run Tito and he could pick up all the targets so they can be put away. Why didn't I think of that?? :doh: ROFL.... I imagine its probably one of those "its only funny when its not YOUR dog" things? BJ


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> oh, "Tito's Targets" are a big joke in our agility class. He INSISTS on retrieving all of them.


My puppy is starting to do this. He'll target and then pick it up and bring it to me. :doh: I need to stop laughing when he does it. One of my instructors suggested switching his target to a piece of tape, but I've been numerous places where there has been a random piece of tape on the floor. I think I am going to take black electrical tape and tape an edge to the floor (the floors where we train are black).


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

I was lucky with Gabs- and we just play in agility, obedience is our thing. She just came with really nice contacts. She's actually never missed a contact zone - knock on wood- and I don't fix things that aren't broken. Especially in something that I use for a release for the two of us


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Interesting discussion, for Casey (1st dog)I did a sit at the end of contacts. Lilli (2nd dog) I do a 2o2o. I think when I get my next pup I am going to do a down or 4 on the floor.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hawtee said:


> Interesting discussion, for Casey (1st dog)I did a sit at the end of contacts. Lilli (2nd dog) I do a 2o2o. I think when I get my next pup I am going to do a down or 4 on the floor.


Hey Pam, Great to see you posting again! How's Lilly doing? Quiz says, "hi!"


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Hi Stephanie,
Miss Lilli is doing fantastic she says to give her cousin a bite on the &%^ oops tail lol...
have not had much time to post with all the training going on...so what do you think about 4 on the floor?? I have seen it starting to show up here in the South and do like the looks of it..both as 4 paws on the ground and as a down..got me thinking again..lol that could be bad..


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Sorry I've been so late at responding. I have read every single post on here and have liked the variety of responses. I just need to sit down and think what I really want. I have a fast dog with a lot of potential. Right now, we are getting ready for AKC Novice in May. Agility has always come after obedience and conformation for me, but I'm doing it because Layla LOVES it! This isn't to say that I don't work hard in agility. I try to get in 3-4 practices a week, I'm just not as enthusiastic about it lol 

Oh, and Barb, I LOVE the Tito Target posts! ROFL! He's one funny boy.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hawtee said:


> Hi Stephanie,
> Miss Lilli is doing fantastic she says to give her cousin a bite on the &%^ oops tail lol...
> have not had much time to post with all the training going on...so what do you think about 4 on the floor?? I have seen it starting to show up here in the South and do like the looks of it..both as 4 paws on the ground and as a down..got me thinking again..lol that could be bad..


Glad to hear Lilli is doing well! 

I'm thinking I'll go for a down at the bottom of the contacts with my next agility dog... maybe. The trick is being able to spot, mark and reward the rearward shift of weight, regardless of what the final position is. I could see Quiz pile driving to the bottom and then flopping down! :doh:


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

"I could see Quiz pile driving to the bottom and then flopping down! "

Teach him to go to the bottom and rollover with his feet in the air rofl.....
sorry I could't resist that image lol..


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

the Tito monster did that on a "drop on recall" in an obedience fun match once. All 4 in the air. 
No one really knew what to make of it, whether or not it would have been an NQ in a show, because he did it real fast, and when called to come, jumped right up and did a lovely front.
They do love to keep us guessing, don't they??



hawtee said:


> "I could see Quiz pile driving to the bottom and then flopping down! "
> 
> Teach him to go to the bottom and rollover with his feet in the air rofl.....
> sorry I could't resist that image lol..


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

Om goodness that is so funny, always wondered about somthing like that happening.


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