# Is My Dog a Bully or is it time to neuter?



## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

So over the last month I've had to watch Ziggy very closely when we are around puppies younger than himself. At least three times he's actually gotten very agressive -bearing his teeth and just plain being ugly - and pinned a puppy to the ground. I've had to pull him off. I can usually tell when he's about to lose it and interrupt the behavior, but not these 3 times. He will also pick out a single dog and try to mount it. I can always tell when this is about to happen and break the behavior pretty easily.

I was so embarrassed yesterday. As we were walking to a popular dog beach in San Francisco a cute little black puppy came up to him and rolled on his side (SO cute!). Ziggy sniffed stepped back and the puppy jumped toward him to play....Ziggy pinned him on his back and it looked like he wanted to kill him! No one was hurt but I *NEVER *want this to happen again.

This doesn't happen with older dogs/puppies. He LOVES interacting with other dogs of all shapes and sizes, just not puppies. People have been very nice about the whole thing taking it in stride and actually attempting to normalize the situation. I don't feel it's normal.

Is this a behavior of an intact male 11 month old? Is it time to neuter, or does anyone think something else is going on? He's has consistent boundaries provided, is socialized daily, is healthy, exercised and loved very much.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Some dogs just really don't like puppies. Neutering may actually not make any difference in that regard.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

While I agree that certain dogs don't like puppies, I see it as "bullying" behavior. If you plan to neuter him anyway, now might be a good time to do so.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Like I said, people try to make me feel better by attempting to normalize the behavior by saying that it's the puppy's "energy" that some dogs don't like. If any dog has "energy" it's mine, so I just can't buy that.

I'm sad that my Ziggy may be a bully. 

I also think that sometimes he, himself is bugged by other dogs because of the fact that he is still intact. It doesn't happen very often but it does happen.

Thanks for the replies so far. I think I will call the vet tomorrow and begin the process. I wanted to try to wait to neuter, but I may just have to get it done.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

While others may disagree, I would probably go ahead and schedule the neuter as well. He is just about one year old.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

*Is my Dog a Bully or is it time to neuter?*

Gosh. Maybe it's just the beach but I took Ziggy to the beach for the second day in a row because it was so freakin hot at home. 

Ziggy behaved like an out-of-control freak. Maybe it's the wild crashing of the huge waves of the pacific ocean, or the general feel of excitement that those waves generate with all the dogs and their people romping so happily in the waves.

He's always got to have the ball that he doesn't have and this caused me some problems today. He just wouldn't pay attention to his own ball, he always had to have some elses' ball. Of course he's off-leash and for the life of me I couldn't get him to pay attention to me; his recall did not exist and I couldn't get him to leave or drop anything! I kept my cool and still made whatever we were doing fun with a fun voice, but boy I was surely frustrated as he sniped balls from other dogs as their people tossed them. I finally had to leash him up and leave. 

I wonder if the beach is somewhere that I need to go back to step 1 with as far as obedience training goes? He sits or goes down perfectly while waiting for me to launch his ball, but not if I simply want him to stay put for a second.

Today he dove right into incoming crashing waves. It was a sight to behold! I do believe he LOVES the ocean and that makes me very happy. But why does he have to have everyone elses' ball? And this doesn't happen just at the beach. It happens at the park as well but he is just a complete maniac at the beach.


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

GRZ I'm not animal behaviouralist, but your dog sounds just a "little" bit domineering.  I was told this isn't "bullying" behaviour, but rather a dog that is confused about his place in his human "pack" and who tries to exert authority inappropriately outside of the "pack", because he thinks he's the dominant dog in his home (instead of you being that). Your dog sounds insecure of his position, thinking he's the boss, but not totally confident as he's targeting smaller animals than himself, but not same-size or bigger. Mounting is not always sexual, it is also a form of dominance. Maybe you're sending him mixed signals about where he fits in your "pack"?

There have been a few studies done on behaviour modification with neutering and apparently it's not as good at modifying problem behaviour as people seem to think. It can get rid of sexual tension, but if your dog's issue is something else, it won't do much for you. You can neuter him if you want to, but if his issue is behavioural, it won't change much.

I'm trying to remember some advice I was given a few years ago by a dog psychologist/animal behaviouralist about a dog that I rescued who had similar issues....

OK. See if any of this rings a bell for you. The idea here is to remove your dog from his unsure position as alpha, by reasserting your authority, giving him security in his position in the "pack" and your ability to be the boss of it. Remember that your dog is not a four-legged human, he thinks you are a two-legged dog and he looks to you for guidance on where he fits in your family and the order of things in society from his dog point of view. A dog that knows the hierarchy of the pack and where he fits into it, is a secure and happy dog.

Here are some of the things I remember being told to do. They really worked and I was able to rehome this dog with a family who still think he's the best dog they ever had. Considering he was abandoned for being overly aggressive, that says quite a lot. We were also able to do obedience with him after this, something we could not do before because he was so aggressive to smaller dogs.


I was told to remove the dog from sleeping in bedrooms and put him in the kitchen or his crate at night.
The dog wasn't allowed "up" on anything, no furniture or anything.
He wasn't allowed spots that were "his". I didn't notice, but the animal behaviourist did, and there were areas in the house he claimed as his own simply by lying there and refusing to move, he also had a favourite couch which he would not vacate for anyone. She suggested we watch him and disturb him if he tries to claim any territory in the house.
If he plopped himself in the middle of the kitchen (as he did) we were not allowed to walk around or over him, but rather to gently shuffle into him, saying "move, move, move" in a monotone until he moved whenever he saw us coming.
He wasn't allowed on furniture anymore, nor were we allowed to lower ourselves below his eye level, so no more rolling on the floor playing with him. We always had to be higher than him physically and not to allow him to come up to eye level with us. By jumping up for example or trying to get on furniture where we were sitting.
No jumping up was allowed - if he did jump up he was ignored completely until he stopped.
He was not allowed to go through doors first or up stairs first, she taught us to "crowd" him out of doorways and off stairs so that he learnt to let us go first.
He was not allowed off-leash at all until his behaviour improved. I had to spend a LOT of time taking him out and about around people and other dogs, but always on-leash and controlled (close to me). Muzzled or on his gentle-leader as required.
He wasn't allowed any toys that were "his" to play with when he liked. There were dog toys, but they were mine, not his. We played with them when he was good and for as long as he behaved, but after that (or if he started misbehaving and ignoring me) they were put away again.
We went back to training, specially recall, but put him on a rope strung between us so he couldn't run off when he saw other dogs.
At first the poor dog didn't know what was going on and we felt horrible. He was really confused and his head was hanging and he looked like he thought he was in the worst possible trouble, even though we never scolded him or anything. But the behaviouralist came highly recommended so we persisted and one day, voila! he was a new dog. He started giving us his happy face again, stopped being a nuisance and most importantly, stopped humping and jumping up onto small dogs and children and he never attacked another small dog again. He just became this amazing dog that we always knew he could be. 

We then took him to obedience to strengthen that area and to ensure he was 100% solid on obeying commands first off, no matter what the situation. 

There are many books about this subject and I am sure if you Google "Domineering dogs" you'll get some good information and maybe some tips on what not to do.

All of the best to you and your dog!


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Cody's pet said:


> GRZ I'm not animal behaviouralist, but your dog sounds just a "little" bit domineering.  Maybe you're sending him mixed signals about where he fits in your "pack"?


Let me give this a shot. You've brought up some points that I would like to address. It very well could be that Ziggy is a bit domineering outside the house, but 99% of the time he plays and hangs just perfectly with other dogs. It's only when balls are around that I have a problem and the combination of balls and the beach (went for the first time this past weekend) proved to be way too much stimulation for him - at least that's what I think.


> I was told to remove the dog from sleeping in bedrooms and put him in the kitchen or his crate at night.


Ziggy sleeps in my bedroom on the floor on his bed. I don't see any problem with that. I work nights and he even sleeps with me in my room during the day. He's never on my bed and he does not bother me *at all*. When I start to arouse from my sleep or when the alarm goes off is when he comes to my bedside and licks my hands or whatever is hanging over the side!! 



> The dog wasn't allowed "up" on anything, no furniture or anything.


He is allowed up on only one piece of furniture. It's an IKEA chair in my front room that sits in front of a big window. He sits looking out the window. He never sleeps there (that I know of) and vacates immediately if I ask him to. Sometimes we'll sit and look out the window together.



> He wasn't allowed spots that were "his". I didn't notice, but the animal behaviourist did, and there were areas in the house he claimed as his own simply by lying there and refusing to move, he also had a favourite couch which he would not vacate for anyone. She suggested we watch him and disturb him if he tries to claim any territory in the house.


I can't think of a single spot that he has claimed as his in the house. No matter where he is if I want him to move he will.



> If he plopped himself in the middle of the kitchen (as he did) we were not allowed to walk around or over him, but rather to gently shuffle into him, saying "move, move, move" in a monotone until he moved whenever he saw us coming.


He does plop on the floor in between the kitchen and dining area beacuse the floor is cool. He's never underfoot in the kitchen or near the dining table. I don't think I should go out of my way to make him move if he's not in my way.



> He wasn't allowed on furniture anymore, nor were we allowed to lower ourselves below his eye level, so no more rolling on the floor playing with him. We always had to be higher than him physically and not to allow him to come up to eye level with us. By jumping up for example or trying to get on furniture where we were sitting.


He is not allowed on furniture - never has been except the IKEA chair. The eye level thing is interesting. When I get home after a long night at work he is so massively happy to see me as I am to see him! He curls his body into a circle (nose to tail) and leans himself up against my legs. Eventually he slides down to the floor against my legs and ends up on his back. Then I get down on my knees and give him belly rubs and kisses. I usually drop everything in my hands right away and pay attention to him first. He's been alone for about 13 hours at that point and hasn't made a single mess in the house anywhere (I work 3 - 12 hr nightshifts/week). He deserves my attention! One thing he does do is if he's sitting, I will give him a hug and his nose will point straight up to the ceiling. That's the only time my eyes are below his - when I'm hugging him around his neck. I don't lay down on the floor because I don't want to get mauled! 



> No jumping up was allowed - if he did jump up he was ignored completely until he stopped.


This is something we're still working on. He does get ignored. If he jumps I ask everyone to tell him "off" and to turn their back. It usually works, but he is persistent. I'm thinking about leashing him to have better control when I know people are coming over. As a matter of fact, I will leash him from now on until this behavior stops. Also, he is always made to sit before he gets affection from anyone anywhere. This is sometimes hard in public but I explain it to the person approaching and they are usually pretty good. It's hard when you've got someone exciting saying in a high squeaky voice, "oh hello! puppy! puppy!" You get the picture.



> He was not allowed to go through doors first or up stairs first, she taught us to "crowd" him out of doorways and off stairs so that he learnt to let us go first.


He sits before he gets in or out of ANY door anywhere including the vet and stores for example. He sits before entering ANY park. I make him "wait" before getting out of the car. I'm almost always first in or out except at home when he's going out without me. I'm not sure what else I can do here.



> He was not allowed off-leash at all until his behaviour improved. I had to spend a LOT of time taking him out and about around people and other dogs, but always on-leash and controlled (close to me). Muzzled or on his gentle-leader as required.


I don't think he needs to be muzzled (like I said, 99% of the time he's fine with other dogs). He LOVES people of all shapes and sizes. We just need to be careful around small children who are the same height as he is. Children we run into at parks always want to toss the ball for him but I don't let them. He sits or goes into a down every single time before I launch a ball, but I would feel really horrible if he knocked over a child going for the ball in their hand. I would prefer to take the time to teach a kid how to do it before letting them toss the ball. But I have to say that he does loves the energy of 10-11 year olds! His off-leash time is so special and we do something off leash at least 5 days/week. I can't imagine taking that away from him and I. I always re-leash him if any issues arise.



> He wasn't allowed any toys that were "his" to play with when he liked. There were dog toys, but they were mine, not his. We played with them when he was good and for as long as he behaved, but after that (or if he started misbehaving and ignoring me) they were put away again.


He does not get a ball unless 1) he's playing in his pool or 2) we're in an open space where I can toss it. The problem I have with claiming toys or taking and putting them away is that he jumps up on me to get the toy back but once I stop dead in my tracks and give him my serious face and voice he leaves me alone....even with a ball once I can get it from him! I wish I could train him to pick up his toys at the end of a playtime or the end of the day.

I think I would call him more of a *complete nuisance* as far as the ball obsession goes. Ziggy always has to have and goes after the ball that he doesn't have. It's so hard to get him to give it up when this happens. He also LOVES to be chased by other dogs. Especially when he has a ball in his mouth. Is this bad? 

He doesn't seem to try to dominate other dogs except in some rare cases when he will pick out a dog and try to mount them. But like I said earlier, I can always see this coming by his posture and interrupt it pretty easily. After the interruption he seems to get it and won't bother the dog again. 

The thing that REALLY disturbs me is his unpredictable behavior around puppies and sometimes smaller dogs. This and the ball obsession are my two major concerns. He is still pulling like a locomotive at the beginning of walks - I'm using just a regular collar and leash. I've tried everything but I have one more trick up my sleeve to address this. He is curious about things passing (wheelchairs, noisy skateboards, bikes, etc), but never shys away or goes after them. Most of the time he just totally ignores them.



> All of the best to you and your dog!


Thanks so much for your thoughtful post!

(As a side note, we went to the beach for the 3rd day in a row yesterday. It was a different beach and there was not a single ball around. He behaved perfectly and followed all of my commands. He had a great time with other dogs playing with sticks and kelp! I did have to keep an eye on him around smaller dogs and a puppy though, but nothing happened.)

GRF - I know this is a LOT to read, but any other thoughts here regarding puppy agression or ball obsession?

Oh! p.s. Thanks Carol!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Some dogs don't like that spazzy energy that most puppies have, totally normal. The key is to teach him if he doesn't like it, to come to you for help, or use good judgement in telling those sorts of dogs to back off. Bender will tell a dog off and it's fast, no contact and then she walks away. Usually she's given a lot of warnings and signals to the other dog first, so I don't worry.

Ticket is my issue dog with that, he doesn't tend to like puppies as a rule, so when I see a puppy I call him to me and keep him nearby, and try to attract the puppy to be goofy with me so Ticket doesn't get jumped on and so on. That has seemed to work quite well and now he shows some interest in puppies - guess he doesn't think he has to be a studmuffin and growl at everything anymore.

For the ball issue, totally been there. It got to the point that I either had to throw non stop and risk cooking the dogs, or leash them and not go off leash at the park - he'd take off to play with whoever was throwing and I'd have to catch him. So, he started wearing the e collar for recall work (nobody tossing a ball, great skills, however if he even saw a ball and was off leash, he was gone!). It did take a month to work him up to listening all the time and not need reminders of it, but now he's pretty good about it and we can go off leash and not worry (having spent an afternoon chasing after him as he would take off to wherever a ball was being tossed - someone would stop so I could get him and he'd go off to the next one...).

Lana


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

It sounds like it could be a ball obsession. Bama will run and take a ball away from any of the dogs in the back yard but he doesnt get snarky with them just grabs it and runs away. For right now, I would leave the ball at home when he is at the beach. If you see anyone on the beach with a ball maybe get him to a different part of the beach.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Bender said:


> (nobody tossing a ball, great skills, however if he even saw a ball and was off leash, he was gone!).
> 
> Lana


You describe Ziggy to a tee as far as the ball thing goes! He is never agressive when he has a ball and he never tries to take a ball from a dog. It's only when the ball is loose - that's when he nabs it. He almost always drops the ball as soon as another dog approaches (mainly to sniff and be sniffed, I think). But if the other dog goes to pick up the ball, Ziggy will always pick it up first! If he doesn't get it first, no big deal - he goes and finds the next ball. When there's another dog near him he even sometimes lets a ball go, it will bounce once and then he'll catch it again. Almost like he's sayin', "go ahead, try to get it." He does that with me as well! It's funny but not funny. He has some awesome ball skills. I wish I could channel that into something.

Yesterday at the beach, as soon as I saw the puppy I had to pick it up. It's people were pretty far away (I personally would not let my puppy farther than 2 inches of me at a place like this). Ziggy wasn't having a problem with the puppy, but I didn't want to take that chance - it always starts out friendly. It was a cutie pie pug puppy-very young. I was afraid that he would jump on me to try to get the puppy and he did so in a playful way. Fortunately I was able to hand off the puppy to it's owner after about a minute. I don't know if picking up the puppy did more harm than good in my dog's eyes. I was able to easily distract him to another area after that.

Maybe we need to hang around puppies more. I am pretty familiar with some of the petstore trainers around here. There are some free open puppy playtimes. There are two especially who I think know their stuff pretty well. Maybe I could talk with them and see if we could hang out in a very controlled way for a little while and see what happens.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

BeauShel said:


> For right now, I would leave the ball at home when he is at the beach. If you see anyone on the beach with a ball maybe get him to a different part of the beach.


Most definitely. Yesterday I left the ball home and no one at the beach had a ball. It was like day and night as far as him paying attention to my commands went. At least he doesn't get snarky about balls. Just puppies.

From now on (for now)- no ball at the beach!


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## Cody's pet (Jun 3, 2009)

Bender said:


> Some dogs don't like that spazzy energy that most puppies have, totally normal. The key is to teach him if he doesn't like it, to come to you for help, or use good judgement in telling those sorts of dogs to back off. Bender will tell a dog off and it's fast, no contact and then she walks away. Usually she's given a lot of warnings and signals to the other dog first, so I don't worry.
> 
> Ticket is my issue dog with that, he doesn't tend to like puppies as a rule, so when I see a puppy I call him to me and keep him nearby, and try to attract the puppy to be goofy with me so Ticket doesn't get jumped on and so on. That has seemed to work quite well and now he shows some interest in puppies - guess he doesn't think he has to be a studmuffin and growl at everything anymore.
> 
> ...


 
Hi,

Just wanted to say I am not saying here that these issues I mentioned are an issue for EVERY dog, just that I had a specific dog who had issues with dominance under those circumstances and who was helped by doing those things. 

Most of my dogs sleep in my room, cuddle with me on the couch etc, but this one dog I had, he was confused by this and it caused him issues.

It could be ball obsession, for sure, but that doesn't explain the bullying of smaller dogs, nor looking like he wants to kill them.

Good luck.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I think some dogs are just more dominant and need constant reminders about their place in the pack. It sounds as if you are doing alot of good things to reinforce this but he sounds like he is still feeling like he needs to be in control when he is with younger dogs. We have had this issue with Asia starting at about 18 monthes and going back to basic obedience and doing all the teschiques in the nothing is life is free method helped alot. I also avoid areas where there are alot of dogs now. Her triggers were young rambactious dogs too and she would try to put them in their place but acting like Cujo(growling, pinning them down by the neck and generally acting vicious) as she was doing was over the top so we had to get a handle of that especially after it escalated to her biting a dog. although it was my intervntion that caused that in retrospect. It is scary at how fast it can escalate if you don't get a handle on it. Asia is also not allowed on any furniture now and needs to be reminded about her place in the pack every so often to keep her in line as she still tries to exert her dominance if we don't do that.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Are you sure it's not just a macho, macho man phase bc he was just the little guy himself and is changing his status in the world? I bet he'll outgrow it if he has a lovely temperament in every other scenario. I'd have him neutered though, for sure.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

oops- double post


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Are you sure it's not just a macho, macho man phase bc he was just the little guy himself and is changing his status in the world? I bet he'll outgrow it if he has a lovely temperament in every other scenario.


See, this is what I was thinking because he DOES have a lovely temperment in every other way. Maybe it's a combination of being a little confused AND the macho macho thing? I can say that he has become much more confident than a few short months ago when he was afraid of the big bad trash cans! (he does still give the cans the evil eye when he passes them but it's with his tail up - not between his legs : )



> I'd have him neutered though, for sure.


I called on Monday to get the ball rolling but my vet's on vacation. I will wait until she gets back next week to talk with her. I agree and think it's time.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Methinks Ziggy is an Alpha-Ziggy 

That's ok. You'll just have to treat and train him as such.

Others here are far more qualified to make recommendations on that part 



GRZ said:


> So over the last month I've had to watch Ziggy very closely when we are around puppies younger than himself. At least three times he's actually gotten very agressive -bearing his teeth and just plain being ugly - and pinned a puppy to the ground. I've had to pull him off. I can usually tell when he's about to lose it and interrupt the behavior, but not these 3 times. He will also pick out a single dog and try to mount it. I can always tell when this is about to happen and break the behavior pretty easily.
> 
> I was so embarrassed yesterday. As we were walking to a popular dog beach in San Francisco a cute little black puppy came up to him and rolled on his side (SO cute!). Ziggy sniffed stepped back and the puppy jumped toward him to play....Ziggy pinned him on his back and it looked like he wanted to kill him! No one was hurt but I *NEVER *want this to happen again.
> 
> ...


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Methinks Ziggy is an Alpha-Ziggy


OMG! What have I created! LOL!

That's funny because ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you that I am a human alpha!  So not only does my dog look a little bit like me, he behaves like me! (oh gosh is this what mom meant by one day you'll get yours? LOL!)


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