# Jake is not sound



## Dog (Sep 26, 2006)

Please don't shoot me but I don't like this post.


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## Ruby'smom (Feb 4, 2008)

poor Jake


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am sorry that Jake is missing a toe. The breeder should have let you know that before you picking him out and especially if he knew you wanted to show him. I hope you can get it resolved. Hopefully he will be a great pet for someone. 
Nothing to feel bad about.


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## cinnamonteal (May 16, 2008)

That sucks. The breeder sounds questionable. 

There's nothing wrong with taking a dog back if it's not the right fit for your home and needs. I hope you get that refund and Jake gets a wonderful pet home.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

What's in a toe? I guess if you plan to show him or breed him it's a problem. Otherwise.. he's unique and awesome! It is an easy identifying factor should he ever go lost.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

LizShort said:


> I picked Jake up and brought him home. I noticed that he wasn't moving quite right. I really checked him over and noticed that he was missing a toe.
> 
> I'm not totally attached to him yet so I am trying to get in touch with Dave and see about getting a refund. I can't show him and that is one of the main reasons I went for a full Golden. Very very sad.


 
Looking at your pick up post, yes you must be disappointed. Sad to let Jake go but it's your choice if showing is really important to you. I hope you treat Jake with the upmost love and caring while you have him so he doesn't feel detached and alone as you think you should be seeing him as you are planning to have him go. He just left his mom and family and he really needs your unconditional love and attention for the time being.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Did the breeder know you planned on showing the dog? Show potential puppies are generally stacked and gaited several times before selections are made, and obedience/agility prospects also are checked and tested, and I would think that a defect that affects the puppy's gait would have been noticed at that point.

Actually, as a breeder myself, I know that I am so tuned into my puppies that the least little thing is immediately apparent, let alone something that would affect gait and movement. And if I didn't, I am pretty sure my vet would pick up on it at their check up before going home. I am surprised that if it is indeed that apparent that the breeder did not notice, or did not mention it to you.

If you need to return the puppy, I would contact the breeder immediately and make arrangements to return Jake. The longer you wait, the harder it will be on you and the puppy, as both of you will get attached.


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## Dog (Sep 26, 2006)

Very sad... I wish I could take him.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

At the risk of coming off as abrasive, this doesn't sound like a show quality breeder, and I'm truly wondering if you know what all is involved in showing a dog (and getting a quality dog from a quality breeder) If you are aware and it's some strange oversight on your part and the breeders part, I'd make the switch as soon as possible.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

How could a good breeder not know a puppy was missing a toe, particularly if it affected the gait? My breeders have always spent one-on-one time with their puppies, checking them over physically nearly every day, training, watching, and evaluating.


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## marleysmummy (Jul 11, 2008)

Awh, this is so sad, I could never imagine getting a puppy and then returning it.

Poor Jake, I hope he finds a good home.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm sorry for you and Jake. I hope things right its self soon.

Let us know updates.


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

The more I think about this the more I get upset. I feel I need to state some things because this is a discussion forum and on a discussion forum, things will be discussed, even things that may be unpleasant. Please be ready for some realistic feedback. If you don't want to know a harsh reality, please stop now and do not read the rest of what I am about to say.

Listen, it's not a Limited Edition Collector's vase with chipped paint. It's a living breathing feeling animal. I'm so bothered by this post that I'm going to be very candid and frank with you. It's clear to me that neither you nor your breeder know anything about what makes or constitutes a show quality Golden Retriever. That means that none of those dogs would make it into the show ring. Just because it has papers doesn't mean you can show it and no possible way a missing toe would go unnoticed by a solid breeder. The time and genetics and science and planning for a proper litter, the litters that go by without a show quality dog, then you finally get a solid quality show dog that is a show dog for one true purpose - to carry that genetic bloodline for breeding. The grooming, the training, the conformation classes, the investments, the costly medical clearances, the diet, the traveling for shows, the handlers, impressing the very critical judges, everything is so crucial to having a Golden worthy of being shown, Champion titled and bred. 

Part of me wants to say go make a quilt and show that instead. Part of me wants to say how can you return a puppy over something so superficial as a toe. I don't think you have what it takes to be a dog person. This post makes me very sad. :no:


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

So sad, hope little Jake will have a good home.


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## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

Did you not look him over thoroughly when you viewed him at the breeders? 
I hope you can sort this out quickly without too much stress on the pup.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Rummysmom, well said and I couldn't agree more. I had the same thoughts but thought maybe I was overreacting or the only one who feels this way. Who cares if the puppy is missing a toe? He's unique and will probably be a special, wonderful pet. I have thought about this little dog since I read this hours ago. 

It made me sad to read it and disturbed me on so many levels. I wish I could take him home myself.  And like you said, true quality show dogs take years and years of research and breeding and those who do it right don't do it for the money. I hope Jake finds a loving home, either with the original poster or with someone who simply wants a great pet.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

This is a genuine question and truly not meant to be sarcastic. Was there not a long thread about your choice of breeder, initiated by you, with many folks questioning his breeding practices? Too many litters was one of the concerns. When you have that many animals, you do tend to overlook things like missing toes! Do you still feel this was the right breeder for your show golden? Will you accept another puppy from him if he wants to exchange instead of refund?


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## pburchins (Mar 11, 2009)

I have read a couple of your other posts about the kennels you purchased him from and you have seemed hesitant from the start of purchasing from this kennel. On 5/20 you stated in another thread the following:



LizShort said:


> Sammydog, thank you for looking that up. I had no idea how to do that. I just went and cruised around the site. thank you for posting the links
> 
> Thank you all for your input. There are three primary reasons I am bringing this pup into my life, the first is my son needs a playmate other than ME!! LOL. Second, I need a reason to get up and get out. The third... well... we will save that for a later date.
> 
> ...


You plan to have him snipped and he will be loved regardless.........Now you want to return him because he has a missing toe ? I doubt missing a toe will stop Jake from becoming a good dog. In your earlier post it sounds like you did not want to show him and now you do ? I don't get it.

Responsible breeders will take a dog back because of a health problem that was found by a vet within a certain amount of days. I doubt a missing toe is a major health problem. If they do take the dog back I would imagine your contract states that they will let you select another puppy. I doubt they will give you your money back. 

In the earlier thread It seems to me that you don't want the dog anymore and you want your money back for some reason or another. What are you teaching your 12 year old son here ? If a life isn't perfect return it ? Assuming your son goes to college at 18 him and Jake will only have 6 years together. What happens to Jake then ?



LizShort said:


> I'm so quick to freak out because I am always certain that I've made a poor decision about everything (sheepish grin)


Are you having one of these moments now ??

I am sorry to be blunt in my posting........I had the pleasure of 13 years with my first golden and I miss him everyday. He had a little white toe and he wasn't the perfect show golden but he was the best dog my family could ever ask for. If you are looking for perfection and can't accept a challenge (there will be many more to come) then perhaps you should reconsider if owning any dog for the next 15 years is right for you.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Poor little guy. Only a few weeks old and already being rejected for not measuring up to some arbitrary standard. I want to bring Jake home and just love him.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

Demand a 5% refund for the missing dog parts.


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## Hudson (May 18, 2005)

I hope you get your problem sorted quickly for Jakes sake, and he finds a loving home that wants him whether he has a toe missing or not.I' m sure he will be a great puppy regardless.


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## Sucker For Gold (Jan 13, 2009)

I would give up the ring long before I would give up the puppy. I would not even consider giving him up if he didn't have any toes.


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## OriJames (Jan 23, 2009)

I must say that I agree with a few of the opinions here. I myself, was considering showing Ori, however I was informed just because his parents were not showdogs and I did not have papers from the breeders, I couldn't. It didn't bother me one bit. He's still lovable, he still loves me and he's been my rock these last few months. 

Personally, I was attatched to him even before I laid eyes on him, I didn't even get to see him until the breeders brought him to me at 9 weeks, but I knew he was special. Regardless of the fact he has a missing toe, he can still walk. So he's not perfect, no dog is, just as any human isn't. I shudder to think how an infant with a birth defect just as small would be treated the same way by anyone.

This is a life, and a loyal, loving companion. It's not a toy, or a dress you can take back to the store because it didn't match the color of your purse. You may not think you're attatched to Jake, but I'm sure he's already attatched to you. In a few days or a week, he will consider you his mother. Put yourself in his paws for a moment, and try to imagine what it would be like for your mother to exchange you or get her money back because she couldn't enter you into a beauty pagent.

So you can't show him for a missing toe, is having him as a best-friend and a member of the family so bad? Perhaps I may sound a little harsh here, but I'd suggest you re-think your motives and intentions on owning a Golden here, or a dog in general. 

This post made me incrediably sad, when I first looked upon in, I thought you were expressing your disappointment and sadness for him. Instead, I found myself crying for him because he's not wanted. I'd take him within a heartbeat if I could. Please, re-think your decision as a life hanging in the balance, or perhaps he might be better off in a loving home where his "defect" isn't minded.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

This has nothing to do with the toe i'd wager if that part of the story is even true. Next time make sure you want a dog.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Hmm, well I didn't read those other posts - but I did read the one about all the things she put in the car and how excited she was to be getting her puppy. I'm not sure that by the way some of you are coming across is going to be a great help to Liz and Jake as you are going to be pushing her away from posting again and having an honest and thoughtful discussion about Jake. I hope, too, that she keeps Jake, missing toe and all. And I hope that Liz understands that all these comments come from a caring spot in each of our hearts - please don't be easily offended and please continue the dialogue here and on the forum in general.

Honestly Liz, it does take a lot of money and time and knowledge to train a dog to be shown and even after all that, to have a champion - well, that's rare even for all the show people who have been doing it for years. May I also state, that if you return this dog - with the way the world works, I bet you'd be turning away a very special dog as dogs with handicaps for some reason turn out to carry the most beautiful souls inside them. The same can be said of people. I hope you really think this through. If you keep Jake and love him as he is - there will come a time you will think, Thank God I kept my boy, what a huge mistake it would have been to send him back. Likely, your eyes will get teary and you'll thank God you stuck with him.
It's one thing to feel let down by the breeder and I understand that as well - so get a partial refund to ease that injustice and love Jake for the beautiful golden soul he has and be blessed with the pure unconditional love he has in his heart to give to you and your family. 

sincerely,


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Jake was picked up yesterday? There is no big deal in taking him right back so that he can go to another home.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I can't believe that something such as a missing toe could be overlooked, by the breeder or the new puppy owner. I feel sad that the poor little mite will probably be taken back, but I'm more angry at the breeder because they didn't point out the defect at the time of purchase... that is unforgivable!!! The new owner wouldn't necessarily notice such a thing in the excitement of the moment.

If that pup was specifically purchased as a show prospect (there are absolutley NO guarantees!) then the breeder was wholly negligent in selling a pup with an obvious defect.

That said, it wouldn't matter a heck to me if a pup was missing a toe or not, I'd love him or her just the same, but I would still expect the breeder to point it out to me...

Your son needs a companion and playmate - a missing toe is not really the end of the world... i'm sure a very sad day for you... I'm sorry this happened.


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## sabby (Apr 23, 2009)

5% discount.... haha.... very funny Release the hounds.
my sides are hurting from laughing so hard....

Having said that I am torn between feeling sorry for the puppy or being ashamed on your behalf Liz 

Maybe i am missing something here...
*_shakes head*_


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

As a breeder, I can certainly understand Liz's disappointment. When you purchase a puppy, you assume that you are purchasing a healthy, whole puppy unless the breeder tells you otherwise. If it is something that is already affecting the gait of the puppy, who knows what problems might arise down the road? This is totally apart from the wisdom of buying a potential competition puppy from the particular breeder that she chose.

Most puppy owners have visions of walking with their puppies, watching them retrieve toys, wrestle with the kids and do all of the stuff we expect them to do. To have a puppy that might not be able to do this, or might have more serious problems in the future, well, that can be an issue.

If, as a breeder, I had such a puppy, I would plan on holding on to the puppy for as long as it took to evaluate the problem and it's potential outcome. Then, and only then, would I place the puppy.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> Jake was picked up yesterday? There is no big deal in taking him right back so that he can go to another home.


I agree. I feel sorry for the puppy, but if she really is intent on showing the dog, then a missing toe is a big deal.

Granted, a puppy with a missing toe should really have been noticed by a quality breeder, so maybe the OP should reconsider her choice of breeder.

Of course, is there a chance that the OP is just freaking out over getting a puppy, and is using the missing toe as an opportunity to back out of the situation? I know when I first got Flora I really, really struggled with the idea of having this needy little creature around, and (don't flame me) often considered taking her back. I am SO glad I stuck with it though, and I'm sure the OP would be as well if she stuck with Jake. 

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.


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## Thor0918 (Feb 28, 2008)

One of Leo's littermates had a toe nibbled off while her mother was cleaning her. The breeder calls her nibblet. Her sister has her now and she's a fantastic pup. (Her name is Sadie now.) Just saying,,,, I'd keep him but, then again, I'd already be in luuuuv!


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## zippybossrock (Jan 12, 2008)

So he's missing a toe, big deal. I don't think it will have any effect on his temperament or personality. From your original posts, I guess I didn't get the impression that you were a "show" person. But, I don't really know much about showing  Anyhow, even if you cannot show him, why not use the experience to teach your son about all of the responsibilities involved with being a dog owner? Further, if you were really set on "doing" something with Jake, keep him, love him and train him. You could work with him to be a therapy dog. IMHO, this sounds more rewarding than showing, given the circumstances.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> As a breeder, I can certainly understand Liz's disappointment. When you purchase a puppy, you assume that you are purchasing a healthy, whole puppy unless the breeder tells you otherwise. If it is something that is already affecting the gait of the puppy, who knows what problems might arise down the road? This is totally apart from the wisdom of buying a potential competition puppy from the particular breeder that she chose.
> 
> Most puppy owners have visions of walking with their puppies, watching them retrieve toys, wrestle with the kids and do all of the stuff we expect them to do. To have a puppy that might not be able to do this, or might have more serious problems in the future, well, that can be an issue.
> 
> If, as a breeder, I had such a puppy, I would plan on holding on to the puppy for as long as it took to evaluate the problem and it's potential outcome. Then, and only then, would I place the puppy.


Linda you sound like such a great breeder. Too bad the world is not filled with breeders like yourself. I know there are many breeders like you, on this board. Just wish there were more! :yes::yes::yes:


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

My biggest dream is to be good breeder. 
My first golden is without pedigree (owners of his mother didn't do inborn ability test- for laziness and puppies didn't get pedigree). He is the reason I want to breed. He's amazing representative of the breed. Definitely show quality. And he has enormous fault- no pedigree. This is my biggest sorry since I will never, ever have a chance for his blood in breeding. Neverthenless, I contacted wonderful breeder for show puppy. They understood my passion and love for the breed but now I see that was destiny to find them. In meantime my dear Leo introduced me to my future husband who has golden bitch also without pedigree. When I started to meet "breeders"- first thing they told me is to get rid of those two. I said- hell no! They are the reason I want to breed, if I do that I would betray them AND myself, and personaly I would never ever sell any puppy to that kind of persons. For my "show puppy" I waited 3 years. I talked to his breeder daily, we are now very very good friends. They taught me 90% of everything I know about goldens. And they trusted me when they gave me my Pavo ( they even sold him to me for pet price and not show price). All of the breeders told them that they are crazy to sell that puppy and I am so honored about that. And even more since he would gain much better results in breeders hands. We lost too many times from horrible dogs but they didn't care. So don't think that all your showing dreams would come true even if you buy amazing dog. If you'll be so lucky to get him be prepared to loose from dogs that barley fit the standard but carry "the name" or are shown by people with "the name". I wasn't. I now I understand why breeders don't sell good dogs to no names.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Everything for a reason. I feel compelled to share this story:

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/a-boy-who-wanted-a-crippled-puppy/page1.aspx

A storeowner was tacking a sign above his door that read "Puppies for Sale." Signs like that have a way of attracting small children, and sure enough a little boy appeared under the storeowner's sign. "How much are you going to sell the puppies

for?" the little boy asked. The storeowner replied, "anywhere from $30 to $50." The little boy reached into his pocket and pulled out some change. "I have $2.37" he said. "May I please look at them?" The storeowner smiled and whistled and out of the kennel came Lady, who ran down the aisle of his store followed by five teeny, tiny balls of fur.

One puppy was lagging considerably behind.

Immediately the little boy singled out the lagging, limping puppy and said, "What's wrong with that little dog?" The storeowner explained that the veterinarian had examined the little puppy and had discovered that it didn't have a hip socket. It would always limp. It would always be lame. The little boy became excited. "That is the puppy I want to buy." The storeowner said, "No, you don't want to buy that little dog. If you really want him, I'll just give him to you."

The little boy got quite upset. He looked straight into the store owner's eyes, pointing his finger, and said, "I don't want you to give him to me. That little dog is worth every bit as much as all the other dogs and I'll pay full price. In fact, I'll give you $2.37 now and 50 cents a month until I have him paid for."

The storeowner countered, "You really don't want to buy this little dog. He is never going to be able to run and jump and play with you like the other puppies." To his surprise, the little boy reached down and rolled up his pant leg to reveal a badly twisted, crippled left leg supported by a big metal brace. He looked up at the storeowner and softly replied, "Well, I don't run so well myself, and the little puppy will need someone who understands."


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I notice the the OP hasn't returned.

I have no problem with returning a pup to the breeder after a day...for whatever reason. But, I'm really curious about whether or not this pup came from a reputable show breeder or not? I just don't see a quality show breeder missing something so obvious.

Which brings me to something else. What if the next/replacement pup isn't show quality either? Maybe his/her structure is wrong...size is wrong...bite is wrong...etc. But those things won't be obvious until the pups grows for a while.

THEN what happens to THAT puppy? It too will be a "disappointment"...true?

We've all had our disappointments when we want to show a dog that just doesn't turn out as we desired. So...they become beloved pets. 

If this breeder isn't a responsible breeder .... and the owner doesn't want the dog anymore because it, too, isn't show quality (talking future possibilities here) .... then what?


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## cinnamonteal (May 16, 2008)

kdmarsh said:


> Of course, is there a chance that the OP is just freaking out over getting a puppy, and is using the missing toe as an opportunity to back out of the situation? I know when I first got Flora I really, really struggled with the idea of having this needy little creature around, and (don't flame me) often considered taking her back. I am SO glad I stuck with it though, and I'm sure the OP would be as well if she stuck with Jake.


I completely understand how you were feeling. Caleb is my first dog ever and the first couple weeks I had him I was sure I had made a huge mistake. I had envisioned a sweet, cuddly puppy to snuggle with and instead I brought home a biting, scratching, crying, un-pottytrained ball of fluff. I seriously wanted to take him back a few times and I don't think I could have made it through those first few weeks without my husbands help. But it got better. Caleb's not perfect, but he fits my life now and I love him very much. I am so glad I stuck with it.

So, Liz, if you're feeling overwhelmed, I totally understand. And I promise you that with some time and some training, it gets a lot better.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I can most assuredly tell her that Jake is sound! He's 27, 6'2", 200 lbs, and as handsome as the day is long....oh wait, that's my son.  Sorry, wrong Jake.


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## OriJames (Jan 23, 2009)

I apologize on my own behalf for coming across as harsh. I guess personally, it struck a nerve with me. I've had similar situations put forward around me not so long ago, and I may have let that fuel my fire.

OP, I apologise if I offended you. I think perhaps I looked into it the wrong way and that probably wasn't the advice you wanted or needed to hear. At least not so harshly and rude. I am sure you want the best for Jake, I don't think you're incapable of feeling upset for him, it's all a new excitement, and then a big shock, I'm sure. I still do hope you'll reconsider though. I'm sure Jake will make a wonderful member of your family, and your son will definitely have a great new friend.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Snickers...hehehe!

Yep - My Jake was no showdog either but he was beautiful in my book! (I honestly don't remember him ever looking this bad but I have the picture to prove it!):


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> Snickers...hehehe!
> 
> Yep - My Jake was no showdog either but he was beautiful in my book! (I honestly don't remember him ever looking this bad but I have the picture to prove it!):


But there is just something about that picture and his sweet little face that just gets to me-what a cutie :wave:


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Jake*

I think your Jake is gorgeous!!

beauty is in the eye of the beholder!!!


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## stan and ollie (Apr 20, 2008)

Oh yes he was beautiful, just look at that face!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> Snickers...hehehe!
> 
> Yep - My Jake was no showdog either but he was beautiful in my book! (I honestly don't remember him ever looking this bad but I have the picture to prove it!):


Mom, he's not 'this bad', he's adorable!!! What, he's 4-5 months old, all ears, and totally cute....that's perfect.
My Sam was very much like your Jake at that young age...gorgeous red puppsters.
I wish you'd include that pic on your avatar or signature, I LOVE it!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

If this breeder sold Jake as a show puppy, it is obvious that he knows little or nothing about showing. If he "didn't notice" a missing toe, it is obvious that he is not hands on and in tune with his litters and that they are little more than a cash crop.

If you didn't notice a missing toe, I would suggest contacting a breeder who can help you learn about what is involved in breeding and showing, because that would be a pretty obvious abnormality, and you should learn and understand basic anatomy and conformation before venturing into the ring, let alone breeding. 

A missing toe will not preclude Jake from being a wonderful pet for someone, and I hope that he is rehomed soon to someone who will appreciate his other qualities and provide him with a loving home.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> Snickers...hehehe!
> 
> Yep - My Jake was no showdog either but he was beautiful in my book! (I honestly don't remember him ever looking this bad but I have the picture to prove it!):


 How could you not LOVE that face. I giggled when I saw him. That's how precious he was!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

cinnamonteal said:


> I completely understand how you were feeling. Caleb is my first dog ever and the first couple weeks I had him I was sure I had made a huge mistake. I had envisioned a sweet, cuddly puppy to snuggle with and instead I brought home a biting, scratching, crying, un-pottytrained ball of fluff. I seriously wanted to take him back a few times and I don't think I could have made it through those first few weeks without my husbands help. But it got better. Caleb's not perfect, but he fits my life now and I love him very much. I am so glad I stuck with it.
> 
> So, Liz, if you're feeling overwhelmed, I totally understand. And I promise you that with some time and some training, it gets a lot better.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who romanticized getting a puppy and then had her world turned upside down. But **** am I in love with my puppy now.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> As a breeder, I can certainly understand Liz's disappointment. When you purchase a puppy, you assume that you are purchasing a healthy, whole puppy unless the breeder tells you otherwise. If it is something that is already affecting the gait of the puppy, who knows what problems might arise down the road? This is totally apart from the wisdom of buying a potential competition puppy from the particular breeder that she chose.
> 
> Most puppy owners have visions of walking with their puppies, watching them retrieve toys, wrestle with the kids and do all of the stuff we expect them to do. To have a puppy that might not be able to do this, or might have more serious problems in the future, well, that can be an issue.
> 
> If, as a breeder, I had such a puppy, I would plan on holding on to the puppy for as long as it took to evaluate the problem and it's potential outcome. Then, and only then, would I place the puppy.


I wish all breeders were as responsible and conscientious as you.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

If it was just a toe, that would have been fine. I would have lived with it and continued to show in obedience and rally and just had fun. This pup's problems were far worse. The leg missing the toe turned under as he walked. He did not use his toes as he walked; he walked only on the heel of that paw. His gate was seriously affected. He would walk no more than ten steps and have to sit down. His rear end would shake as he walked. I passed this off as just a hot puppy when I went to pick him up. 

Once home, it became clear that his coordination for eating and drinking was not there either. As he would drink, the water would poor out of his mouth. He wouldn't lap it up, he bit at the water and did not use his tongue. 

Speaking of his tongue, when panting, his tongue was odd. It would not spread out and and would not go all the way back into his mouth. 

When shown a toy or a treat, he would not track it. He would look at it and try to follow it, but it became very obvious that he couldn't. 

While this pup was with me, he was loved and cuddled and held and petted and kissed and on and on and on. I did return him to the breeder. When he arrived, he wanted nothing more than to get into a pen with the pups that were there. He was far more happy with them than he had been with me for that short period of time. I was very disappointed.

Maybe this makes me a stupid, horrible person. Maybe this makes me bad and seem totally heartless. Sorry. I'm not though. It was very difficult for me to take that pup back. I thought about it long and hard before making the decision to take him back. The thoughts of having to possibly start pain treatment in the next two years with a pup that seemed as though he may have had cerebral palsy (had he been human, it would have been a viable probability). 

The breeder did offer me my money back. I chose a different puppy. I looked over the blood lines and the certifications for this one. Dad was a dog from a CA breeder and mom was only 1 generation away from a pup who was also from a different breeder. 

This Jake is beautiful and strong. Right now he is laying on towels wrapped around frozen gel packs (the kind for coolers) in my bed as I type this. He is mostly house broken; at least he hasnt' had any accidents in the house. He loves his crate and plays in it. 

I made mistakes. I made poor choices in breeders and took a puppy home with out checking him out completely. Lessons learned. If this makes me a horrible person, so be it. 

I am sorry I brought this up to the list


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Ori said:


> I apologize on my own behalf for coming across as harsh. I guess personally, it struck a nerve with me. I've had similar situations put forward around me not so long ago, and I may have let that fuel my fire.
> 
> OP, I apologise if I offended you. I think perhaps I looked into it the wrong way and that probably wasn't the advice you wanted or needed to hear. At least not so harshly and rude. I am sure you want the best for Jake, I don't think you're incapable of feeling upset for him, it's all a new excitement, and then a big shock, I'm sure. I still do hope you'll reconsider though. I'm sure Jake will make a wonderful member of your family, and your son will definitely have a great new friend.


 
Well, I'm not Liz but I don't think she's posted yet - so if it means anything, I don't think your post was harsh or offending at all. The ones I was referring to should be obvious without needing to point them out. 
I think though if Liz does not post anymore due to a few peoples comments, that would be silly and sad as in this world, and especially in America - everyone has an opinion and the right to say it aloud. I'm sure if I baked a cake - and let 100 people taste it , some would say they liked it, some find a nice way to say they didn't like it, and the rest of them would use terms like "half baked crap cake" and so on. Forums attract people who feel very strongly about a certain subject so you've gotta expect no matter what you post, you'd going to get come half baked crap cake opinions. 
Liz, if you think some people or wrong or that they don't understand - then say it and please let us know what you have decided to do with Jake - is he safely at the breeders or have you reconsidered and decided to keep him or are you on the fence about it? I know I don't really know you or your puppy but I am a concerned person who cares for the well being of all of your family (Jake included) as many of us here are - we would like to know what is going on - perhaps some people here may actually be able to impart knowledge that would make whatever you decide to do easier on everyone there.


*EDIT - Oh you did post!!! Some people jumped the gun, granted. To read your first post and your new post give completely different messages. So sorry the first puppy was so sick. I hope that the breeder cares enough to take him to the vet to see if he can be helped... niave thinking, I know deep down. Glad you were able to get a second pup so quickly - hoping that everything continues to go right with him.*


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Liz, no one is saying that you are a horrible person, I certainly did not.

The puppy would appear to have a neurological problem, from the symptoms that you describe. That the breeder either did not notice them, or, sold him like that _any_way, certainly concerns me. Given that you would like to compete with a dog, I would have suggested that you work with a breeder who does, and is breeding dogs for the purpose that you are interested.

Having a breeder that can mentor and help you get started in competitive venues would be extremely beneficial.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

Well at least you learned your lesson and researched your breeder properly and carefully for the puppy you did take home.

Wait...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

No, I think you did the right thing. This pup obviously had some serious problems beyond a missing toe, and far beyond what you as a new puppy purchaser should have to deal with. I would be lying however if I didn't say that I am very disappointed in the breeder for either not noticing something that you picked up on fairly quickly once you were home, or knowing about it and choosing not to say anything. Whichever, that, to me, speaks volumes about this breeder.

I hope that your new puppy proves to be a healthy pet and companion for your family.


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## olik (Apr 13, 2008)

well,i am glad your puppy journey is done now and everyone home happy and healthy.On the brighter mood let see pictures of Jake ,I am sure he is adorable puff ball.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

Any idea what the breeder intends to do with the original Jake puppy? Poor pup seems to have some serious neurological issues.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> Well at least you learned your lesson and researched your breeder properly and carefully for the puppy you did take home.
> 
> Wait...


 
Geez, you seriously need to work on your people skills!


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

Who me? I'm just giving the lady a compliment for her diligent and responsible choosing of a different breeder after the first breeder gave her a puppy that had it's brains on backwards. Where's the harm in that pray tell?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> Who me? I'm just giving the lady a compliment for her diligent and responsible choosing of a different breeder after the first breeder gave her a puppy that had it's brains on backwards. Where's the harm in that pray tell?


 
Maybe someone should speak slower so you could understand...
:doh:


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

Is English your second language Pointgold?

*sar⋅casm*

  /ˈsɑr







kæz







əm/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [sahr-kaz-uh







m]  Show IPA –noun 1. harsh or bitter derision or irony. 2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms. 

*Origin: * 
1570–80; < LL sarcasmus < Gk sarkasmós, deriv. of sarkázein to rend (flesh), sneer; see sarco-









Synonyms:
1. sardonicism, bitterness, ridicule. See irony 1 . 2. jeer.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sarcasm? Or meaness?


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't know. That's up to the individual person I suppose. I think a person complaining about a deformed puppy that selects another puppy from the same breeder deserves a dose of sarcasm. Now I'm sure you have a long afternoon of searching through posts of mine to rebut with your inane comments so get to it.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

I asked the breeder to keep me posted on the original Jake. Whether he does or not remains to be seen. 

I'm sorry I only posted a little at first. I was so upset I could hardly breath. 

I wouldn't have taken another pup from this breeder if the dogs were of his original stock. I will never again buy from this breeder. 

New Jake... omg.... I have taken him on four walks and we have only been home since 5 tonight. He comes when he's called... he's amazing. Pics coming soon!!!


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

Glad you have things sorted out and have your heart Jake now. Looking forward to those pictures.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

This thread makes me so sad.........


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> I don't know. That's up to the individual person I suppose. I think a person complaining about a deformed puppy that selects another puppy from the same breeder deserves a dose of sarcasm. Now I'm sure you have a long afternoon of searching through posts of mine to rebut with your inane comments so get to it.


 
Please, don't flatter yourself. I was easily able to quote that last one from you because it stood out as rude, but it's beginning to pale in comparison to this one - one of your more "helpful" posts. It almost makes me miss Sqwumpy.


Liz - I wish you the best with new Jake. I hope that you are able to find someone in your area to help you achieve your goals if you wish to pursue some of the competitive venues.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

This thread is going in a direction that it really shouldn't be going in.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> This thread is going in a direction that it really shouldn't be going in.


Yes, it is, and I am sorry for that.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> I don't know. That's up to the individual person I suppose. I think a person complaining about a deformed puppy that selects another puppy from the same breeder deserves a dose of sarcasm. Now I'm sure you have a long afternoon of searching through posts of mine to rebut with your inane comments so get to it.


 
Look, it's good to feel strongly and care strongly - but it's also just as important to get your message across to people actually hear it and think about what you have to say. The way you have said it makes the person you would like to be hearing you and thinking about the point you have made, well, shut you out. I'm sure you accept tact is not one of your strong points and maybe that is what you are going for. I think you know that you intend to be at least a little mean because you feel so strongly about this (which makes PGs point.) Why don't we just stop this before it gets any worse. No reason to be ignorant to Pointgold IMO. And honestly, if not people skills, perhaps some help with tact? I get the point you are making, regardless and I think a lot more people would get it if you said it in a kinder, gentler, less volitile manner.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

momtoMax said:


> Look, it's good to feel strongly and care strongly - but it's also just as important to get your message across to people actually hear it and think about what you have to say. The way you have said it makes the person you would like to be hearing you and thinking about the point you have made, well, shut you out. I'm sure you accept tact is not one of your strong points and maybe that is what you are going for. I think you know that you intend to be at least a little mean because you feel so strongly about this (which makes PGs point.) Why don't we just stop this before it gets any worse. No reason to be ignorant to Pointgold IMO. And honestly, if not people skills, perhaps some help with tact? I get the point you are making, regardless and I think a lot more people would get it if you said it in a kinder, gentler, less volitile manner.


 Not all of us disagree with RTH. It's a very sad situation. Life isn't all hugs and kisses when you do something other folks don't like. Sorry.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

> No reason to be ignorant to Pointgold IMO


With all due respect, PG was the first to make an insulting comment to me on this thread. OF course, that doesn't fit in with your agenda to make me the bad guy right?
This lady got 3 pages full of tact and still made another bonehead irresponsible decision. Ig ave my opinion and I will move on before the long arm of the law comes once again to tell me how mean I am.

Toodles.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

fostermom said:


> Not all of us disagree with RTH. It's a very sad situation. Life isn't all hugs and kisses when you do something other folks don't like. Sorry.


 
I certainly wouldn't get another dog from the same breeder, but I shudder to imagine the outrage had it been _me _that would have said what RealeaseTheHounds did!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I certainly wouldn't get another dog from the same breeder, but I shudder to imagine the outrage had it been _me _that would have said what RealeaseTheHounds did!


 Nope. I would have been right there with you.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

Release the hounds... I wasn't going to comment on your posts because you don't know what I've been through and you obviously don't care. I have decided though, that I need to comment. I have a 12 yr old boy, whose father is emotionally and mentally abusive. He is there now and having to go through the month dealing with his dad's and his step monster's bs. I'm sure you are going to say something to the effect that I should take him to court and I'm stupid for not doing so etc etc. Unless you know something about the custody court system in NC, you may not want to comment.

Anyway... Christopher went with me to pick out the original Jake. He had a huge say in the pup. He was looking desperately forward to getting home to this puppy. For him to get home and there not be a pup would have been devastating. Christopher needs a playmate. He needs someone who can give him support that I can't give him. He needs someone who can build his confidence and show him love regardless of what he does. 
While I am there for him all the time, he needs the unconditional love and devotion that only a golden retriever can give him. 

If it was just up to me, I would have come back to the list and asked if there were any QUALITY breeders with pups on the ground who are available. It is not just me though. 

Christopher will never know that the Jakes have been traded. He will only know that he picked a fabulous dog who he will have a hand in training and showing. 

This pup, regardless of the breeder, is more important to my small family than you understand and I will not get into any more. Suffice it to say, that your judgments/ comments based on me and my family with no understanding or basis for your hash words were uncalled for.


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## ReleaseTheHounds (Feb 12, 2009)

This is a sad story and I'm sorry that your son has a crappy father. And again, I'm sorry that the dog your son picked ended up being sick. But your son is 12, not 3. You really think he's not going to notice that the dog that was missing body parts, could barely walk, drink or eat properly suddenly had a miraculous transformation and is cure of all ills when he comes home? 

i was 12 once. I was short not retarded..

Anyways, I'm done with this thread and with you.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> This is a sad story and I'm sorry that your son has a crappy father. And again, I'm sorry that the dog your son picked ended up being sick. But your son is 12, not 3. You really think he's not going to notice that the dog that was missing body parts, could barely walk, drink or eat properly suddenly had a miraculous transformation and is cure of all ills when he comes home?
> 
> i was 12 once. I was short not retarded..
> 
> Anyways, I'm done with this thread and with you.


YOU are WAY over the top and completely inappropriate. You might not be retarded, but you certainly lack a common decency.


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## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

Jackson'sMom said:


> Any idea what the breeder intends to do with the original Jake puppy? Poor pup seems to have some serious neurological issues.


I was just wondering that myself! Please let us know!


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## olik (Apr 13, 2008)

i think this tread need to be close,it's going way too far between people.
Jake is home-amen with this.Healthy and happy.End of story.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

Again you come through with hurtful words. My son hasn't seen the pup since it was 4 weeks old. He will not know that this was a switch.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

PJD001 said:


> I was just wondering that myself! Please let us know!


Absolutely!! If I am kept in the loop.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> With all due respect, PG was the first to make an insulting comment to me on this thread. OF course, that doesn't fit in with your agenda to make me the bad guy right?
> This lady got 3 pages full of tact and still made another bonehead irresponsible decision. Ig ave my opinion and I will move on before the long arm of the law comes once again to tell me how mean I am.
> 
> Toodles.


 
Sorry, no agenda. Just honest opinions, with all due respect as well. 

On another note, just read Liz's reply - I've done the wrong thing many times for what I felt at the time were the right reasons. I know how upset my son would have been to be expecting a puppy and then not to have gotten one. My son, like yours, needs that companionship and best friend. As he's getting older, he is showing more and more to most likely have Asperger's syndrome. A lot of people consider it a high functioning form of Autism as autism is, most people don't realize, a social disorder. He has a really hard time understanding and relating to other kids his own age and has a really hard time making friends in school, keeping up social behavior that is expected of him at school, etc - it's like an 8 hour battle for him with himself just to have the kind of good school day most kids don't even have to try to have. His pets help him and soothe him in a way that nothing else can - so yes, I understand how a child could really need that kind of companionship and strength. That said, I hope you are right about this puppy- that he will be strong and healthy and isn't from the breeders stock - because if you are wrong and this puppy turns out to have issues as the prior one did you may be sparing him right now only to make it harder in the future. I've taken those odds myself from time to time.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> This is a sad story and I'm sorry that your son has a crappy father. And again, I'm sorry that the dog your son picked ended up being sick. But your son is 12, not 3. You really think he's not going to notice that the dog that was missing body parts, could barely walk, drink or eat properly suddenly had a miraculous transformation and is cure of all ills when he comes home?
> 
> i was 12 once. I was short not retarded..
> 
> Anyways, I'm done with this thread and with you.


Wow, now that's just cruel. What is your problem dude?


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## Joe (Apr 9, 2005)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> This is a sad story and I'm sorry that your son has a crappy father. And again, I'm sorry that the dog your son picked ended up being sick. But your son is 12, not 3. You really think he's not going to notice that the dog that was missing body parts, could barely walk, drink or eat properly suddenly had a miraculous transformation and is cure of all ills when he comes home?
> 
> i was 12 once. I was short not retarded..
> 
> Anyways, I'm done with this thread and with you.


 
This post by ReleaseTheHounds is cruel and simply beyond what I would define as an acceptable behaviour. 
I've banned ReleaseTheHounds for *1 week* as a warning and also a friendly reminder, that while he may have a point, it is not necessary to choose this type of wording.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

I am so tired of the nasty, mean-spirited, sarcastic comments from ReleaseTheHounds. So many threads on which he comments turn into personal attacks and name-calling. He and Sqwumpkin must be brothers.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

ReleaseTheHounds said:


> This is a sad story and I'm sorry that your son has a crappy father. And again, I'm sorry that the dog your son picked ended up being sick. But your son is 12, not 3. You really think he's not going to notice that the dog that was missing body parts, could barely walk, drink or eat properly suddenly had a miraculous transformation and is cure of all ills when he comes home?
> 
> i was 12 once. I was short not retarded..
> 
> Anyways, I'm done with this thread and with you.


*bul·ly 1* (b







l














) 
_n._ _pl._ *bul·lies* *1. *A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people.
*2. *A hired ruffian; a thug.
*3. *A pimp.

_v._ *bul·lied*, *bul·ly·ing*, *bul·lies* 
_v.__tr._ *1. *To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner. See Synonyms at intimidate.
*2. *To make (one's way) aggressively.

_v.__intr._ *1. *To behave like a bully.
*2. *To force one's way aggressively or by intimidation


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I agree, and it certainly reflects poorly on the forum as a whole. Hiding behind the veil of sarcasm just doesn't cut it. I don't think it's too much to ask for common decency and respect.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Yes, it is, and I am sorry for that.


No need to apologize. It takes two to tango.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> No need to apologize. It takes two to tango.


Thanks, but I really don't want to dance with that guy... :no: And I am sorry for reacting to him, which he obviously feeds on.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Joe said:


> This post by ReleaseTheHounds is cruel and simply beyond what I would define as an acceptable behaviour.
> I've banned ReleaseTheHounds for *1 week* as a warning and also a friendly reminder, that while he may have a point, it is not necessary to choose this type of wording.


Good call, Joe. That post was more than hateful.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

Wow, am I ever glad I'm just seeing this post and didn't jump in earlier. Plus, I'm sure some members here could guess what I'd write.


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## pburchins (Mar 11, 2009)

I am going to step out on the thin ice for a moment........I hope I don't fall through.

You sound like you have a lot of things going on in your life. They also sound very emotional with the divorce, abuse and such. I am worried that your expectations are too high for Jake. You want him to be a friend, take care of your son, win championships at shows and help solve family problems. That is a lot for a 8 week old puppy. Don't you think ?

I am a firm believer that dogs are great assets to families probably the greatest. I believe that they teach us great life lessons. I can promise you that there are millions of dogs that are bought for children to take care of and within a week the parents end up taking care of them for life.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it is unfair to expect Jake to solve your families problems. In reality, it is your responsibility to solve all of his. I guess what I am suggesting is step back for a moment and lower your expectations for this puppy. Show your son it is his job to take care of him through thick and Jake will reciprocate. They all do......


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Thanks, but I really don't want to dance with that guy... :no: And I am sorry for reacting to him, which he obviously feeds on.



Whatever, you can be just as rude. I've seen it plenty.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

"You're rude! Am not! Are too!" 

Let's move on, folks. I am so sick of this crap. If you can't add anything constructive to the reason the thread was started, just stay quiet.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

pburchins said:


> I am going to step out on the thin ice for a moment........I hope I don't fall through.
> 
> You sound like you have a lot of things going on in your life. They also sound very emotional with the divorce, abuse and such. I am worried that your expectations are too high for Jake. You want him to be a friend, take care of your son, win championships at shows and help solve family problems. That is a lot for a 8 week old puppy. Don't you think ?
> 
> ...



No, he's not here to solve all my families problems. He's here to be loved and cuddled and bring what he can to my family. So far, he has brought me a great deal of joy by just being him. 

Having grown up with goldens, I have missed them so much for so long. (I wish I still had the contacts I did when I was in high school... none of this would have happened). I am only going to expect out of Jake what I got from my last golden. I big ol' lap dog who slept in my bed and loved me. 

Yes, I am going to show because I remember it being a blast for me and Quincy (my last golden). Quincy loved the attention and the ring. 

I hope Jake will love it just as much. At the same time, he is glued to my ankles right now so I'm going to believe that he will be happy as long as he is around me or my son or both.


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## cham (Feb 21, 2008)

Jackson'sMom said:


> "You're rude! Am not! Are too!"
> 
> Let's move on, folks. I am so sick of this crap. If you can't add anything constructive to the reason the thread was started, just stay quiet.


 
You go Ann! This thread and it's rudeness is done, over, kaput. 
Maybe its time to look at the new Jake and wish Liz and her son, good luck and admire the pup.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Good call Joe, enjoy the new Jake and post some pictures!


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Oh gosh - just catching up now on today's events. (And had to muck my way through the mud to get here.:no Sounds like the original pup had much more going on than just that missing toe and as tough as it was to return him, I don't blame you. 

I wouldn't be so trusting of that breeder though. She knew darned well what she sold you. If she didn't, then she's breeding far too many puppies and not paying attention to them at all. You have to go with your gut.

I'm glad the new pup seems to be working out nicely. Best wishes with him.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm glad that you returned the other pup and got a healthy boy. I'm not sure what breeder he came from, or that the breeder is producing show pups (I kind of doubt it based on the 1st Jake situation), but it sounds as though you're planning on enjoying and loving him...either way.

Getting your son involved in showing...or whatever events you end up in, is a great idea. It's good for your son, and good for the pup.

Please keep us posted on everything......with pictures!!!


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## PJD001 (Jul 28, 2006)

LizShort said:


> I asked the breeder to keep me posted on the original Jake. Whether he does or not remains to be seen.
> 
> I'm sorry I only posted a little at first. I was so upset I could hardly breath.
> 
> ...


 Glad to hear it is going well so far. Best of luck with everything.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

Hey, I am very glad that you solved this problem. And I hope that new Jake is going to be healthy! 
I am very, very sorry to bring this up and I mean nothing cruel or whatsoever (english is not my main language so if it sounds cruel I apologize in advance). I must admit that I don't understand something. In very first post you said you'll return dog that is not show dog for missing a toe. In other post you said that your 12 years old son picked puppy at 4 weeks old. With all respect I have never seen 12 year old able to recognize show potential at puppies, I've been learning it for years and years and I still don't know if I would know to pick one and specially to recognize it at 4 weeks old puppies. Did you say the breeder you want show puppy or that particular puppy? 
When I was buying show puppy decision was on breeder (they have seen hundreds of puppies grow up so I believed that they picked the best from the litter). All that I asked is which one is mine and when can I take him home.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

You are right, and no offence was taken, a 12 yr old can't choose a show quality pup  I was looking for a pup for obedience, not for conformation. The new Jake comes from a line, on both sides, of champions and he is GORGEOUS. Will he stay that way? Who knows. Conformation is not my ultimate goal, obedience and rally and maybe even agility are. I gave Christopher a hand in choosing Jake because I wanted him to feel confident in his choice. I can train just about anything. I trained a goat to dance, and rats to do many tricks. I've even trained my cats to speak. 

You are absolutely right. You can't tell show quality at 4 weeks. For that matter, you can't tell much about a pup at 4 weeks. 

I will never again purchase a companion from that breeder. My next pup will come from a friend made as I show. I will get better recomendations through this list and after meeting people whose breeding and training practices I like. As my son grows, I will teach him more about what to look for in a pup/dog. I will also help him learn to train a pup and how to take care of one. He has done beautifully with the cats (though he wants to play a little rough with them -- typical ADHD and boy)

Next time I will find a reputable breeder. This breeder was actually suggested to me by the James River kennel club and came highly recommended. He sounded nice and his facilities were very clean. It wasn't until I had paid a non-refundable deposit that I discovered that many on this list felt the kennels were not reputable. I started to feel very uncomfortable but knew there was no hope of getting my deposit back. I just had to trust that many pups, in spite of their breeder, come out just fine. I took my chances and lost the first time. I hope this one (not of his original stock) will be just fine. So far he has captured my heart and will be loved deeply for the rest of his life.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Liz, I'm sorry the direction this thread took. Your first post was very short and without much info...I wasn't sure myself if it was a serious post or not, hence the joke about 'my own Jake,' and most likely why things became testy. I do hope Pup Jake 1 finds a home where he will be loved and cared for regardless of his possible neurological deficits. I now understand why you kept the same name for the 2nd pup. I doubt your son will notice that it is not the same pup, they're litter mates and most likely resemble each other and they grow so rapidly at this young age.:crossfing I agree that entering your son and his new pup into obedience or agility will be a great way for them to bond and a wonderful way for your son to build his own personal skills/tools and self esteem. 

Please do keep us posted on both Jake's.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

LizShort said:


> This breeder was actually suggested to me by the James River kennel club and came highly recommended.


Liz, best of luck to you and Jake - truly. I wonder if you've contacted the JRKC to update them on their referrals? Sometimes clubs are reading off a list - and breeders do change over time, some get better and some get worse...There seems to be a trend right now where some previously "reputable" breeders are morphing into something very different - perhaps a product of the economy.
Erica


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

MurphyTeller said:


> Liz, best of luck to you and Jake - truly. I wonder if you've contacted the JRKC to update them on their referrals? Sometimes clubs are reading off a list - and breeders do change over time, some get better and some get worse...There seems to be a trend right now where some previously "reputable" breeders are morphing into something very different - perhaps a product of the economy.
> Erica


You are absolutely right Erica. I never thought about doing that. :doh: I will get that done today.


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

paula bedard said:


> Liz, I'm sorry the direction this thread took. Your first post was very short and without much info...I wasn't sure myself if it was a serious post or not, hence the joke about 'my own Jake,' and most likely why things became testy. I do hope Pup Jake 1 finds a home where he will be loved and cared for regardless of his possible neurological deficits. I now understand why you kept the same name for the 2nd pup. I doubt your son will notice that it is not the same pup, they're litter mates and most likely resemble each other and they grow so rapidly at this young age.:crossfing I agree that entering your son and his new pup into obedience or agility will be a great way for them to bond and a wonderful way for your son to build his own personal skills/tools and self esteem.
> 
> Please do keep us posted on both Jake's.


No worries  I didn't take your post as anything but a reaction to my VERY short post. It was my fault for not giving all the information right from the start. Next time, I will post all the info and not just the one piece that is the easiest to write quickly :doh:

Your Jake is so cute though. 

New Jake is not from the same litter. The first litter I chose from was a group of his own dogs from his own breedings. The second litter was from proven dogs who were not his. 

Never again... never again.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

You know, there are at least several (many?) that have "lived and learned" through the forum about breeder/pup selection and would do things differently the next time. Certainly doesn't mean that we love our dogs any less or would trade them for anything.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Hi Liz,

You may want to think about the possibility of your son finding this thread while on the computer. I wish you the best with your new puppy.


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## OriJames (Jan 23, 2009)

I am glad that you have found some peace, Liz. I think the first post in this thread did soret of spark up a confusion of some sorts. And I apologize once again for assuming without knowing the details. I usually don't do that, I assure you.

I myself have learnt my own lessons from choosing pups. Not Goldens, but a pup I had a year ago, was bought from a friend of the family. Mixed breed, but a wonderful dog. Trouble was though, as soon as they were off their mom's milk, we found out they had been feeding him adult food and he was ghastly underweight. Truth be told, at the time, I didn't know much about puppies because he was my first at the time. (Ori is my second, so I'm still learning myself) He wasn't sick, but the vet was concerned for his age because he came home at about 15 weeks and I had no clue that he was still supposed to be on puppy food. I thought it was only a step after weaning until they were able to leave their mothers. Lesson was learned then. Also, the family it turns out, aren't exactly all responsible with their animals from what I've seen. But that's another story.

When you go to a breeder, you put your trust in them, as well as finance. You like to think that they won't lead you astray and that you will be given the best. Unfortunately, it's not the case in your situation and I truly am apalled by this breeder's lack of knowledge. It makes me question why he's even in the business. But for my own rage control, I don't think I want to know the true answer to it.

While at 4 weeks you may not have noticed anything, you noticed it as soon as you got home. That makes me wonder why/how he didn't notice it even the day before you picked him up. Does he take no notice of the pups in his care at all? Plus with the circumstances being a neurology-related problem, it's not that hard to spot if you obviously saw it.

When I picked out Ori, it was literally over the phone. His family came from a farm out by the coast a fair drive from where I live in the suburbs, and me not having a car or not driving, I couldn't go out there. However, I told them I wanted the runt if possible (I have a thing for runts and the underdog, no pun intended. All my animals have had similar litter ranking like it.) and sure enough, it was the color I described, (medium blonde) and it was a boy, which is what I was looking for too. Perfect match for me. I asked about his family history, whether there's been hip dysplaysia, eye issues, etc and it was all clear. They informed me also, that they've sent quite a few of their pups from litters to the Guide Dogs Association, and some of the volunteers from the association have bought some as a pet because they have a wonderful quality. I was given to them for reference and they were highly recommended. I can see why every time I look at Ori. Although, he's a character all on his own. Heh.

I was a bit picky with my choice perhaps, but I wanted to make sure everything was ok and I wasn't spending my heart away. They were even kind enough to deliver him for me, and keep in contact should I need anything in the future. I'm thinking perhaps soon, once Ori is all grown-up, I might start looking into it. But that's quite on the sidelines for now.

That being said, I think you have done the right think, and bless Jake's little heart for being such a lively boy even with his condition. And with your new Jake, I wish you the best of luck in the world. You'll have your hands full for quite a while now. Enjoy it, and treasure every moment.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Ori said:


> Trouble was though, as soon as they were off their mom's milk, we found out they had been feeding him adult food and he was ghastly underweight. Truth be told, at the time, I didn't know much about puppies because he was my first at the time. (Ori is my second, so I'm still learning myself) He wasn't sick, but the vet was concerned for his age because he came home at about 15 weeks and I had no clue that he was still supposed to be on puppy food. I thought it was only a step after weaning until they were able to leave their mothers. Lesson was learned then. Also, the family it turns out, aren't exactly all responsible with their animals from what I've seen. But that's another story.


Just to be clear - feeding puppies adult food is fine - and done quite often by a lot of good breeders - it just has to be a good quality food to start with...If you're feeding mom and puppies "ol Roy (beneful, etc) you're going to get a different result than if you are feeding mom and puppies Innova (Orjen, Wellness, etc). There's a lot of research into puppy food and large/medium breed puppies; growing too fast or carrying too much weight is IMO worse than carrying too little weight and growing slowly. But obviously best is a balance - if you look at specific "large breed puppy formula" it's probably identical to that brands adult food...I don't bother with puppy food, I'd prefer that my guys grow slowly and consistantly...but that's me.
Erica


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> Just to be clear - feeding puppies adult food is fine - and done quite often by a lot of good breeders - it just has to be a good quality food to start with...If you're feeding mom and puppies "ol Roy (beneful, etc) you're going to get a different result than if you are feeding mom and puppies Innova (Orjen, Wellness, etc). There's a lot of research into puppy food and large/medium breed puppies; growing too fast or carrying too much weight is IMO worse than carrying too little weight and growing slowly. But obviously best is a balance - if you look at specific "large breed puppy formula" it's probably identical to that brands adult food...I don't bother with puppy food, I'd prefer that my guys grow slowly and consistantly...but that's me.
> Erica


I do wean to puppy food, mainly because my puppies wean quite early. If they were nursing longer, I might not. However, they remain on puppy formula only until between 4-6 months old. I too prefer slow growth, and feel that especially the 6-18 month growth period is critical in that respect.


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## sabby (Apr 23, 2009)

Liz

I did not fully appreciate the gravity of the situation when I read your first post.
Please accept my apologies for being an insensitive, ignorant..."piling on" jerk.
If you do not I completely understand. I learned a valuable lesson when it comes to
making posts.

*_schmuck* is me _


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## LizShort (May 19, 2009)

No hard feelings. It was my fault because I didn't post the whole situation.  You're not a schmuck, I would have felt the same way if it were someone else. This is not the first time I have left out info and accidentally led others to believe that I was up to something else. Never intentional, but it happens LOL

*hugs*


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I was wondering about this. Was it actually born without the toe, or did it accidentally get nibbled off?

From what I'm hearing, they are overwhelmed there and probably would have not noticed it or heard the obvious noises.



Thor0918 said:


> One of Leo's littermates had a toe nibbled off while her mother was cleaning her. The breeder calls her nibblet. Her sister has her now and she's a fantastic pup. (Her name is Sadie now.) Just saying,,,, I'd keep him but, then again, I'd already be in luuuuv!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> I was wondering about this. Was it actually born without the toe, or did it accidentally get nibbled off?
> 
> From what I'm hearing, they are overwhelmed there and probably would have not noticed it or heard the obvious noises.


Sorry, but how on earth could that happen... A dam "nibbling off a toe" seems outside of the realm of possibilty to me. Toes are mighty tiny at that point, it would need to be a pretty surgical nibbling not to have gotten an entire paw...
And if it were to have occurred, blood, infection, etc, not to be noticed by the breeder is simply negligent.


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## OriJames (Jan 23, 2009)

MurphyTeller said:


> Just to be clear - feeding puppies adult food is fine - and done quite often by a lot of good breeders - it just has to be a good quality food to start with...If you're feeding mom and puppies "ol Roy (beneful, etc) you're going to get a different result than if you are feeding mom and puppies Innova (Orjen, Wellness, etc). There's a lot of research into puppy food and large/medium breed puppies; growing too fast or carrying too much weight is IMO worse than carrying too little weight and growing slowly. But obviously best is a balance - if you look at specific "large breed puppy formula" it's probably identical to that brands adult food...I don't bother with puppy food, I'd prefer that my guys grow slowly and consistantly...but that's me.
> Erica


Unfortunately though, it wasn't even high quality food. It was the brandless/generic ones. It's sort of like the cheap version of cereal you get in supermarkets that taste like cardboard and are most probably just fat and entrails. Even Pedigree is better quality than them. The family weren't breeders, they just didn't spay or neuter their pets. They once had a litter of kittens and gave them away at 3-4 weeks old and they were extremely sickly. One would fit in the palm of my hand. They're not very responsible pet owners. I'd love to report them, but they're friends of my parents and it's likely to cause issues. I just don't consult with them anymore.

With Ori, if I need advice, I'll speak to those who know more about his needs here, or my vet.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Liz, I'm glad to see things are working out. I too was a bit ornery after reading your first post, but thankfully (for us both, LOL) I chose to keep my mouth shut for once. 

Through my "ornery" stage, I went back through some of your older posts because I got the impression from some other posts that I had missed some back story. One thing stuck out to me and I wanted to bring it back up, because I am not sure you saw the response in the other thread. You mentioned hips/elbows/snipping... but later clarified you were planning on showing in obedience/rally/etc. Just so you know, the only requirement for an in tact dog is showing in conformation. Anything else is fair game for altered dogs. This includes obedience, rally, agility, hunt tests, junior handling (if your son wanted to get involved and learn how to handle a dog... the judges judge the handler, not the dog, so there is no requirement to be in tact), and tracking.... just the venues that come to mind. There are some great threads on the forum that debate when to neuter a dog, and I would suggest you read them. But unless he turns out to be a promising conformation prospect, I wanted you to know that neutering him is still a viable option if you plan to compete. 

Again, best of luck with this new pup. Looking forward to seeing pictures.

Julie and Jersey


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Liz - congrats on Jake 2. Precious little Jake 1 - I hope he finds his forever home.

Wow - this thread is a plethora of emotions!

Safe - not so safe - never safe again - oops, sorry - safe again.

Whew - I'm spent!


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

Duke's Momma said:


> Liz - congrats on Jake 2. Precious little Jake 1 - I hope he finds his forever home.
> 
> Wow - this thread is a plethora of emotions!
> 
> ...


No offense and starting to get the thread started again, but I saw the dog in question yesterday. It didn't have a nibbled off toe, it was born one short. Also it certainly seemed to be behaving fine to me. Too each his own. My wife who is horse groom (and we own a hobby farm) thought the dog was fine to her as well. They already have another forever home lined up.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

If there is a toe missing then that certainly can be an issue if someone wants to consider showing. Sounds like taking the puppy back was a good decision. Especially since the puppy was in the first home for only a day.


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

Lucky's mom said:


> If there is a toe missing then that certainly can be an issue if someone wants to consider showing. Sounds like taking the puppy back was a good decision. Especially since the puppy was in the first home for only a day.


Absolutely


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Maybe Mr. Breeder might want to pay much closer attention to his puppies that according to his sales contract are all show/breeder quality. Missing a toe might be a teensy weensy little problem for a show dog... A breeder not _noticing _a missing toe is a bit bigger of a problem.:doh:


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Maybe Mr. Breeder might want to pay much closer attention to his puppies that according to his sales contract are all show/breeder quality. Missing a toe might be a teensy weensy little problem for a show dog... A breeder not _noticing _a missing toe is a bit bigger of a problem.:doh:


There is my buddy point of gold. Breeder doesn't pick the dog, you do. Failure for you to check a dog out, your responsibility. 

We picked up our pup yesterday and couldn't be happier. Already house broken, sweet as can be and the other dogs love him.

Now I am sure I will have lots of problems since I didn't buy a pointgold dog, but I took my chances. Perhaps we can rename the puppy forum, buy my dogs or I will tell you your breeder that I know nothing about stinks.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

bigds01 said:


> There is my buddy point of gold. Breeder doesn't pick the dog, you do. Failure for you to check a dog out, your responsibility.
> 
> We picked up our pup yesterday and couldn't be happier. Already house broken, sweet as can be and the other dogs love him.
> 
> Now I am sure I will have lots of problems since I didn't buy a pointgold dog, but I took my chances. Perhaps we can rename the puppy forum, buy my dogs or I will tell you your breeder that I know nothing about stinks.


 
My point is that the breeder should know those puppies inside and out, and since his sales contract states that his puppies are show/breeder quality, one would think that he'd want to assure that any dogs that he produced that are going to be shown (not that there are any that I've seen) or bred have no issues that would make them either ineligible, or, lacking the potential necessary to do so. I completely disagree that it is not the breeder's responsibility to check out the puppies. 
As I've said before, the problem with this puppy wouldn't necessarily prevent him from being a wonderful pet.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

bigds01 said:


> There is my buddy point of gold. Breeder doesn't pick the dog, you do. Failure for you to check a dog out, your responsibility.
> 
> We picked up our pup yesterday and couldn't be happier. Already house broken, sweet as can be and the other dogs love him.
> 
> Now I am sure I will have lots of problems since I didn't buy a pointgold dog, but I took my chances. Perhaps we can rename the puppy forum, buy my dogs or I will tell you your breeder that I know nothing about stinks.


I guess I'm confused, and I'm sure this question will stir up more anger, but... you really think it's the buyer's responsibility to check out the puppies? I really do feel like the breeder should have noticed a missing toe. Don't you have to take your pups to see a vet too before they're sold (if you're a breeder)? If so, shouldn't the vet have noticed the pup had a missing toe?

I know it's not the end of the world - I would have no problem with a puppy who was missing a toe, since I have no desire to show - but I really do feel that the breeder should at least be aware of the fact that one of his/her puppies is missing a toe, insignificant though it may be.

And I'm NOT saying your breeder is bad. I'm asking a general question: you think a breeder has every right to sell puppies without thoroughly checking them over and making sure everything is intact, and that it's the buyer's responsibility to notice if anything is awry?


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

kdmarsh said:


> I guess I'm confused, and I'm sure this question will stir up more anger, but... you really think it's the buyer's responsibility to check out the puppies? I really do feel like the breeder should have noticed a missing toe. Don't you have to take your pups to see a vet too before they're sold (if you're a breeder)? If so, shouldn't the vet have noticed the pup had a missing toe?
> 
> I know it's not the end of the world - I would have no problem with a puppy who was missing a toe, since I have no desire to show - but I really do feel that the breeder should at least be aware of the fact that one of his/her puppies is missing a toe, insignificant though it may be.
> 
> And I'm NOT saying your breeder is bad. I'm asking a general question: you think a breeder has every right to sell puppies without thoroughly checking them over and making sure everything is intact, and that it's the buyer's responsibility to notice if anything is awry?


I absolutely believe the breeder has a responsibility to ensure there dogs are sound. Whether the contract says show quality, which we all know can't be foretold, it is the breeder's job to ensure good dogs.

I would be very surprised if this specific breeder didn't notice something wrong. There are always multiple sides to a story.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> I guess I'm confused, and I'm sure this question will stir up more anger, but... you really think it's the buyer's responsibility to check out the puppies? I really do feel like the breeder should have noticed a missing toe. Don't you have to take your pups to see a vet too before they're sold (if you're a breeder)? If so, shouldn't the vet have noticed the pup had a missing toe?
> 
> I know it's not the end of the world - I would have no problem with a puppy who was missing a toe, since I have no desire to show - but I really do feel that the breeder should at least be aware of the fact that one of his/her puppies is missing a toe, insignificant though it may be.
> 
> And I'm NOT saying your breeder is bad. I'm asking a general question: you think a breeder has every right to sell puppies without thoroughly checking them over and making sure everything is intact, and that it's the buyer's responsibility to notice if anything is awry?


While there is no "law" that a breeder has to, I cannot imagine not having a litter checked by a veterinarian prior to them being sold. If a problem is found with a puppy it is MY responsibility. However, many HVB's don't, because it cuts into their profit. If a puppy goes home with a heart murmur, undescended testicle, or missing toe, for example, found by the buyer's vet, all the breeder has to do is exchange the puppy, since most say "no refunds', and then resell the original puppy.


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> While there is no "law" that a breeder has to, I cannot imagine not having a litter checked by a veterinarian prior to them being sold. If a problem is found with a puppy it is MY responsibility. However, many HVB's don't, because it cuts into their profit. If a puppy goes home with a heart murmur, undescended testicle, or missing toe, for example, found by the buyer's vet, all the breeder has to do is exchange the puppy, since most say "no refunds', and then resell the original puppy.


Again you are right. The vet signed certificate of health and shot records and the office my vet called were all a ruse to convince me that next time I go with pointgold.

I quite honestly am amazed at what a natural you are at knowing everything and having the patience to deal with us troglodytes.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> While there is no "law" that a breeder has to, I cannot imagine not having a litter checked by a veterinarian prior to them being sold. If a problem is found with a puppy it is MY responsibility. However, many HVB's don't, because it cuts into their profit. If a puppy goes home with a heart murmur, undescended testicle, or missing toe, for example, found by the buyer's vet, all the breeder has to do is exchange the puppy, since most say "no refunds', and then resell the original puppy.


That's unfortunate. I wonder if a law requiring breeders to have their puppies checked by a vet would help reduce the number of irresponsible breeders. Probably not.


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

kdmarsh said:


> That's unfortunate. I wonder if a law requiring breeders to have their puppies checked by a vet would help reduce the number of irresponsible breeders. Probably not.


Just to be clear, the dogs from this breeder are checked by a vet multiple times before you pick them up.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

bigds01 said:


> Just to be clear, the dogs from this breeder are checked by a vet multiple times before you pick them up.


I wasn't taking a shot at your breeder.


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## Duke's Momma (Mar 1, 2007)

Ow!!! I'm thinking that this isn't such a safe place again.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

bigds01 said:


> Again you are right. The vet signed certificate of health and shot records and the office my vet called were all a ruse to convince me that next time I go with pointgold.
> 
> I quite honestly am amazed at what a natural you are at knowing everything and having the patience to deal with us troglodytes.


Hey, it's great to know Jake 1 has found a forever home -- and congratulations on your new puppy. Why don't you share some pictures of your new addition in a new thread?


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

Romeo said:


> Hey, it's great to know Jake 1 has found a forever home -- and congratulations on your new puppy. Why don't you share some pictures of your new addition in a new thread?


As soon as we get them off the camera


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

bigds01 said:


> Again you are right. The vet signed certificate of health and shot records and the office my vet called were all a ruse to convince me that next time I go with pointgold.
> 
> I quite honestly am amazed at what a natural you are at knowing everything and having the patience to deal with us troglodytes.


 
I don't know why you have made this about me.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kdmarsh said:


> I wasn't taking a shot at your breeder.


And I was answering your question, kd, but he chose to take a shot at me.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> And I was answering your question, kd, but he chose to take a shot at me.


I know. Sometimes it's best to just ignore people, but I often have difficulty with that. : I appreciated your answer, since I was genuinely curious.


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## bigds01 (May 25, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> And I was answering your question, kd, but he chose to take a shot at me.


I was taking a direct shot. You are a competitive breeder that feels it necessary to insult the competition. Funny thing is I literally had nothing to do with them other then buying a dog. Now you made me a defender of them.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

bigds01 said:


> I was taking a direct shot. You are a competitive breeder that feels it necessary to insult the competition. Funny thing is I literally had nothing to do with them other then buying a dog. Now you made me a defender of them.


*snicker* Sorry but there is no way that Gap View is even close to being a competitor of PG's. PG's dogs have all their health clearances, excel in conformation, and PG is intimately familiar with each and every puppy she has produced. She is a member of the GRCA and follows the GRCA Code of Ethics. Gap View doesn't hold a candle to PG's breeding program.

As yes, I'm sure that you will point out that you meant competition for puppy buyers. However, PG's litters are spoken for before they are ever born so she has no need to "compete" for puppy buyers.

Sorry PG, I know that you are fully capable of defending yourself but I couldn't help myself.


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## magiclover (Apr 22, 2008)

bigds01 said:


> I was taking a direct shot. You are a competitive breeder that feels it necessary to insult the competition. Funny thing is I literally had nothing to do with them other then buying a dog. Now you made me a defender of them.


I generally do not respond to negative threads but with 35 posts you feel that you are able to catagorize Pointgold as a "competitive breeder that feels it is necessary to insult the competition"? Good luck finding people here that will agree with you on that. I find her posts to be very honest, forthright and knowledgable about breed standard. To me she is the Simon Cowell of GRF and believe me I mean that as an extreme compliment. Laura rocks.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I really think it's time to close this thread. Nothing of note is being accomplished. Good breeder practices and ethics have been reiterated ad nauseum, and for some who want to keep slinging mud, let's let them do it elsewhere. I think the vast majority of us know the breeders that advise and help us daily around here are QUALITY and tops in their field. ENOUGH SAID!


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