# Finishes, Fronts and "Fix it"



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nairb said:


> Thursday was Bella's first day of Intermediate Obedience, and she did great. I was a little nervous because she's the youngest dog in the class, but after a few minutes, I knew she would be fine.


And I'm sure a lot of that is the hard work you've been putting into training her<:



> 1. Finish (return to heel position). I watched a You Tube video on how to guide your dog into position with treats, so I've been doing that. I have yet to use a command. What command is typically used for both finishes? Would you recommend using a command yet, or wait?


I see no reason why you wouldn't use commands right now. 

There are two finishes.

Right finish = around or by me
Left finish = Swing

I use "around" for those rally exercises where I do not necessarily expect a sit at the end. You will have the schutzhund about turn where you turn around leftwise and your dog circles around your front to heel position. 

By me = always a sit at the end.

There are also hand signals for both, and they have to be continuous motion in the end. Right now while you are teaching them, you would hold your hand out and guide a bit more. 

I personally for everything teach with both verbal and hand signal. 



> 2. Most of her fronts are pretty good. Every now and then (maybe 1 out of 5), she veers off a bit, and comes in at an angle, which results in a crooked front. Any advice on how to deal with that? I've seen people use a "fix it" command to get their dog to straighten out, move closer, etc. How do you go about training your dog to do that?


Do not get into the habit of "fixing" fronts. If the fronts are crooked, that means that you need to help her come in straight well before she gets in close enough (about 1-2 feet) to sit. 

Training scoot fronts now and always helps train straight fronts. The dog is already straight and doesn't have too much room to shift crooked. You can mark and praise that straight front. 

With Jacks generally if I see he is coming in crooked, I will put my hands down and guide him to adjust before he gets in too close. <- Or I'm supposed to.

If my timing is bad and he actually gets in and sits crooked, I will use my knees to push him back and make him readjust his butt without me moving myself to compensate for his crooked front. 



> 3. What is the correct distance for a proper front?


When you are still training fronts, you will always keep the distance only as long as it takes your dog to come in straight and accurately each time. 

3 feet is pretty common to start with. If your dog is handling that perfectly, back off to 6 feet, etc. Do not be in a rush to build too much distance too soon.

At the same time work on "comes" seperate from fronts. This would be putting your dog in a wait 20+ feet away and you will have toys or balls to throw between your legs or past you (make sure you are standing with your leg blocking front position so the picture is different). <- These are motivational and reinforce FAST comes and desire to come in fast with a dog while you are working on the front position with formal recalls. There is no sit at the end. The goal is only to get an active and fast come. 

Good luck<:


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Megora said:


> And I'm sure a lot of that is the hard work you've been putting into training her<:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Megora said:


> And I'm sure a lot of that is the hard work you've been putting into training her<:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good stuff. Thanks. There's a Border Collie in the class that's already doing all that stuff. Other than that, most of them aren't any further along than the other dogs in beginning obedience. A couple of them probably should repeat the beginner class. 


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

With Brooke I use(d) front chutes to train fronts. She is the first one of my dogs I am doing this with and her fronts are far better than any of my other dogs ever were. Very clear to the dog where front is. 
As to the "correct distance for a proper front" I thought you might be referring to where the dog ends up in proximity to you on the front. If so for training I like Brooke to actually touch me. I use the chute for this also by having the closed end of the chute in a spot so that when she sits inside it she is just touching me. Again it makes it very clear where I want front and I have not had any issues when I remove the chute. She is really very precise without them, but I still do use them at times in training to reinforce it.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

AmbikaGR said:


> With Brooke I use(d) front chutes to train fronts. She is the first one of my dogs I am doing this with and her fronts are far better than any of my other dogs ever were. Very clear to the dog where front is.
> As to the "correct distance for a proper front" I thought you might be referring to where the dog ends up in proximity to you on the front. If so for training I like Brooke to actually touch me. I use the chute for this also by having the closed end of the chute in a spot so that when she sits inside it she is just touching me. Again it makes it very clear where I want front and I have not had any issues when I remove the chute. She is really very precise without them, but I still do use them at times in training to reinforce it.


Yes, that's what I meant by proper distance. I'm still training by holding a treat in front of me. I typically hold it close to get her as close as possible. I like the chute idea. We actually have something that might work. I'll give it a try.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Nairb said:


> Yes, that's what I meant by proper distance. I'm still training by holding a treat in front of me. I typically hold it close to get her as close as possible. I like the chute idea. We actually have something that might work. I'll give it a try.


The other thing you can do is when training/showing wear a belt that is visible to the dog. Place a treat between the buckle and your pants. When the dog comes in take BOTH hands together, get the treat from your buckle with BOTH hands and reward with BOTH hands right there. They learn very quickly that the treat is there and want to get real close to it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

You can also use a treat clip. Something that clips to your shirt or pants that you can stick a treat on.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

just another opinion here

For the fronts, I use two different commands, and I use them from the get-go. I use "get around" for the traditional finish, and I use "swing" for the left side finish. I use hand signals for each, too. 
I don't use the word "finish". Our beasties are too smart and mine tends to do things on the judge's command rather than mine so I use a different word.

The proper distance for a front is, according to the rule book I believe, so that you could easily touch the dog without bending over. I laugh when I see that, because what if you have a short dog? But in the case of a golden, that's a few inches from your toes. I do NOT like the dog to touch me, because if you have one that comes flying in on the recall and you want him to touch you, well, you are setting yourself up for being sent sprawling on your rear as he plows into you, unable to stop.

I quickly move from treats in the hand on fronts to treats in my mouth. It gets them to come in well centered, looking up at your face.

I use "fix it" whenever he gets out of heel position, but I generally use it in field work, not obedience. It's up to him to figure out how to "fix it", I don't bother telling him "get back" or "get up" or "get in", etc. That's probably why I use it mostly in field, because the heeling position is a lot looser and it's pretty much just a reminder to him to get his head out of his fuzzy butt and do what he's supposed to be doing.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

I use the command "heel" for left finish and "finish" for right finish.

For fronts, left, and right finishes, I do a lot of work on the leash before I ever allow the dog off leash. If my dog doesn't front straight, I use my body language to show them what to do. IE: If they are angled to your right, I'll take a step left, causing them to turn, then go back to my regular position. Does that make sense? It's hard to write out!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I noticed you all use different commands for the finishes. That's one of the reasons I'm hesitant to use commands. Finishes will be introduced in the next session, and I'm sure the trainer will want us to use a certain command. I guess It probably doesn't matter if someone has already been using a different command. I think I can get her finishing on command before the next class two weeks from this past Thursday. She's picking it up fast. I'll wait on hand signals for now. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No good trainer will make you use "her" or "his" command. They will let you use whatever works best for you. They may have some suggestions, but that's about it.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> No good trainer will make you use "her" or "his" command. They will let you use whatever works best for you. They may have some suggestions, but that's about it.


I know. I just want to make sure I use good commands. I think I'll go with "swing" for left and "around" or "get around" for right. 

The reason I'll wait on hand signals, is because I want to make sure I'm doing it right! I'll introduce them after the next session. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

BTW, I always teach the hand signals and the verbals at the same time. I find that dogs learn hand signals faster (they are, after all, very cued in to body language but spoken language is "foreign" to them) and it makes it easier for them to really learn the verbal command solidly.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> BTW, I always teach the hand signals and the verbals at the same time. I find that dogs learn hand signals faster (they are, after all, very cued in to body language but spoken language is "foreign" to them) and it makes it easier for them to really learn the verbal command solidly.


I'm trying to find a resource with suggested hand signals. I'll probably look for a video. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

when you pick your commands, use whatever flows off your tongue easily, but of course be careful not to use a command that will sound a lot like another command you will use later on. Make sense? You will probably use "stand", "stay", "take it" or "fetch it", "go-out" or "run-out", "find it", "jump it" or "over". So just stay clear of a command that sounds too much like one of those.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

depending on how far you want to go with obedience (reach for the stars!), you will do a hand signal exercise at the Utility level. So just be sure your hand signals you use now won't conflict with the hand signals for down, sit, and come on the utility signal exercise.
You might find some good videos of hand signals on here, check some of Titan1's posts.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I also teach both finishes using verbal and hand signals, in addition to stepping back in the beginning. I eventually weed the verbal part (and foot movement) and just use the hand signal. I believe it helps keep the dog's attention on you if they know they must "see" the next command. At least that is what my trainer has drilled into ME. :doh:


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I was wondering if hand signs or verbal commands were more important. I rely on hand signals. Sometimes I'd say "around" when I meant to say "swing" or vice versa.. So I prefer to use hand signals. I wasn't sure if somewhere down the line I would HAVE to use verbal commands. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I believe the only time you HAVE TO use a verbal command is in the utility glove exercise, where you have to tell the dog to get the glove. You must also use a hand signal (your hand down by his head to "show him" which glove to get). Otherwise, I believe you can use all hand signals.
That said, it's good to have both in your tool box. There are times at a show when your dog just happens to look away from you right before you plan to give a command...being able to say, "FIDO, COME" rather than just giving the hand signal comes in rather handy.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> depending on how far you want to go with obedience (reach for the stars!), you will do a hand signal exercise at the Utility level. So just be sure your hand signals you use now won't conflict with the hand signals for down, sit, and come on the utility signal exercise.
> You might find some good videos of hand signals on here, check some of Titan1's posts.


How far we go will depend on me, because my dog is awesome. I'm just learning. We'll take it one step at a time and see how it goes. 


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Nairb said:


> How far we go will depend on me, because my dog is awesome. I'm just learning. We'll take it one step at a time and see how it goes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


That's how I feel too, I am so terrible with my two left feet and horrible coordination.. But I'm really trying. How could it be possible that it is harder to train a human than a dog (in my case)? Lol. All I know is we're going to go as far as possible but the most important thing is that we're going to have so much fun the whole way there. 


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## Door (Apr 2, 2010)

Someday you might want to think about going to an AKC obedience event. See the dogs and trainers. There will be some that are just awesome. But don't get intimidated. If you have a Golden Retriever, the best dog breed in the world, you already have a head start!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> That's how I feel too, I am so terrible with my two left feet and horrible coordination.. But I'm really trying. How could it be possible that it is harder to train a human than a dog (in my case)? Lol. All I know is we're going to go as far as possible but the most important thing is that we're going to have so much fun the whole way there.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Well, we have to start somewhere. There's nothing like the feeling when you've been working on something, and everything clicks, and your dog gets it.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> just another opinion here
> 
> 
> The proper distance for a front is, according to the rule book I believe, so that you could easily touch the dog without bending over. I laugh when I see that, because what if you have a short dog? But in the case of a golden, that's a few inches from your toes. I do NOT like the dog to touch me, because if you have one that comes flying in on the recall and you want him to touch you, well, you are setting yourself up for being sent sprawling on your rear as he plows into you, unable to stop.


I think you're thinking of being able to touch them without stepping forward. Bending/not bending doesn't go into the equation. But that's just to determine if the front is passable or not. Your dog can be close enough to touch but still get scored for being too far away. 

The best distance for fronts is as close as you can get them without letting them touch you. Touching you is also scorable.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Found this short, simple video and implemented hand signals. I wasn't doing it exactly right earlier, but after 15 minutes and a whole stick of string cheese, Bella is finishing (both left and right) on command! 

Thanks for all your help!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

now we need a video of you guys doing it


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> now we need a video of you guys doing it


Ha ha. We'll see. 

I don't know why, but she loves doing the finishes. I could probably do it for an hour, and she wouldn't get bored. Problem is, she's so excited, she charges in and runs into me with crooked fronts almost every time. These are just 20 ft recalls in my house. I might have to skip the recall, and just do it like the video shows for a few days. 


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Here's some videos I made last year working fronts with my boys. This is pretty standard front training for me. (Conner was retired by this time, I just let him have a turn because he saw Flip work and he wanted a turn too)


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> Here's some videos I made last year working fronts with my boys. This is pretty standard front training for me. (Conner was retired by this time, I just let him have a turn because he saw Flip work and he wanted a turn too)


Where did you get those sticks?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You can get them at any home improvement store, they're dowel sticks.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> Here's some videos I made last year working fronts with my boys. This is pretty standard front training for me. (Conner was retired by this time, I just let him have a turn because he saw Flip work and he wanted a turn too)



So... I just tried spitting food into Molly's mouth while practicing fronts. How do you spit with such great precision?? The food was bouncing off Molly's face. 


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Thursday was Bella's first day of Intermediate Obedience, and she did great. I was a little nervous because she's the youngest dog in the class, but after a few minutes, I knew she would be fine.


How old is Bella? Sounds like great work! 



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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

start by teaching them to catch a treat dropped just a few inches over their mouths. I like to use popcorn when first teaching.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Loisiana said:


> start by teaching them to catch a treat dropped just a few inches over their mouths. I like to use popcorn when first teaching.


Thank you! I will try this. She can catch it if I'm not spitting it directly above her. Our trainer doesn't like spitting so she never taught us how to do it. Molly doesn't get as close as I'd like without my hands luring her in, so I'm open to trying anything. 


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Last month I went to train with a friend who is also a trainer, and she used that opportunity to start teaching her puppy to catch treats. She had her on a leash so she couldn't eat what she didn't catch (helps them work harder to try and get it), and then we worked our older boys with all the popcorn left on the training floor for some proofing. I was very proud of Flip, he did not eat any popcorn


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

As of about two weeks ago, Bella would just let food bounce off her face, but now she's catching really well. We've been working on it a lot. No spitting yet though. I need to work on my aim. I do carry hot dog pieces in my mouth now and hand them to her.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks for the videos. I'll have to pick up some dowels next week.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

o0Shaz0o said:


> How old is Bella? Sounds like great work!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


She's 7.5 months. I took two Dobermans to obedience class when I was 12 and 14, but that was 30 years ago. This is all new to me at this point, but fortunately, I seem to have a good dog to make it easier. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Loisiana, I see you have a number of videos on your You Tube page. I'll be watching a bunch of them. Thanks again.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's not really spitting a treat, it's more just leaning over a little and letting it drop out of your mouth into theirs. If you can't drop it straight down, chances are your dog is too far away on the front!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> It's not really spitting a treat, it's more just leaning over a little and letting it drop out of your mouth into theirs. If you can't drop it straight down, chances are your dog is too far away on the front!


I tried it last night after reading through this. She caught most of them. She hasn't made the connection yet as far as being close enough, but she'll get there.


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## mickeychick (Jul 19, 2012)

Wow she is young! I was told Liberty was quite young when we started, but everyone was surprised by how well she did. 

We use the command "get in" for getting into heel position. Our instructor taught a different way to get them into position and to be honest, I don't use it. But it may be a good way for you (I think it depends on the dog). So you start with a treat in both hands. Tell the dog the command and sort of lure them past your left side with a treat, then come around with the treat in your right hand behind your back and feed it to them. Then have them turn around and sit by your left side and feed the treat from your left hand. 

To correct the "fronts" our instructor put down long pieces of wood (anything long and narrow will do) about a 16 inches apart. You stand at the far end and when you call the dog to you they have to go between those boards to do their front. So there isn't much wiggle room and they pretty much have to be straight.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I love playing "Choose to Front", tossing out a treat to "find it" then running to a spot on the floor at a very strange angle to the dog and calling him front. The criteria stays very high so if the front is not straight, there is no reward. That puts the dog in the position of locating true front over and over until it becomes muscle memory. I also like Janice Gunn's game of calling front while sitting in a chair with legs out as channels. Using "Fix It" did not work for me, as it became the command for a straight front. Leaning your upper body back against the wall, can encourage a straight front as an exercies. Do not ever reward a front that does not meet your expectations, and when one does, really make a point of being pleased.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm a little different on rewarding, instead of rewarding correctness, I try to reward effort. Even if their effort causes them to be wrong, I want to emphasize to them I like how hard they are trying.

So if I am working on fronts with the dog coming in from my left, and he ends up fronting way to my left, the dog probably isn't trying that hard, but if he tries so hard that he over compensates and ends up to my right, I would reward that! 

Another example, if I was working on lagging heeling, and whatever I was doing caused my dog to forge, I would praise like crazy! Flip likes to forge, so when I start working on forging and he actually drops back into a lag, I praise that. I never want to diminish effort, a dog that is trying hard will get the precision over time.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

I do not put a command on my fronts and finishes until they look exactly like I want them to look. So you could continue training without ever putting a command on the action until you get to class but really the choice in commands is entirely up to you and your preference. I use mostly hand signals when competing but my verbal cues are "get around" for a right finish. I would never use the word "finish" since that is the same word that judges say and dogs are not dummies. Too much potential for the dog to finish on the judges word instead of my cue. 
My left finish is "get close". I use "come" for front because no matter when I use the word it means that the dog needs to end with a tight sit in front of me. One of the games I play with my dog is the "get it" game. I toss a visible piece of food to the side back and forth until the dog is moving quickly back and forth, then I give a "come" or "sit" or "down" command. The dogs love this game and it works wonders for getting a rapid response.
Good for you for wanting to go the extra mile with your dog. Training is fun and is a great way to develop a bond with your pup.
Good Luck!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I like the idea of rewarding effort like Bridget Carlsen teaches, but my dog is too driven to be rewarded for effort for a precise and well known behavior. He already puts in a ton of effort and heart , and so will offer too many behaviors when rewarded for effort on a precision issue. I do like the idea of rewarding for effort in learning something new, or to recognize a superlative try at something. 

Denise Fenzi: 


> Have strict criteria. Either your dog meets your criteria or he does not. If you do not know what your criteria are, your dog will not succeed. Do not reward your dog if the criteria are not met. Either lower the criteria if you asked too much, or try again. Either way, do not reward the failed attempt. To earn a reward, the work should be difficult enough that the dog must concentrate to succeed, but not so difficult that he gives up. If you start when your dog is very young, working hard and with engagement becomes a habit. Remember, positive is not permissive; good positive trainers have precise criteria.
> 
> 2) Raise your criteria quickly and systematically. If you spend a full month doing three steps of heeling followed by a reward, your dog is going to be confused when you shoot for five steps, because she has been led to believe that the exercise is three steps. To keep your dog thinking, raise criteria quickly. Bob Bailey says at 80% success, raise criteria. Works for me.
> 
> ...


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

So I guess there is more than 1 way to train these skills?? Who knew! 
LOL!!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I like the idea of rewarding effort like Bridget Carlsen teaches, but my dog is too driven to be rewarded for effort for a precise and well known behavior. He already puts in a ton of effort and heart , and so will offer too many behaviors when rewarded for effort on a precision issue. I do like the idea of rewarding for effort in learning something new, or to recognize a superlative try at something.


Have you studied Bridget's stuff? Yes she is "effort based" but it's really not as you described or as Jodie described, although both are good examples of a dog giving effort (or in Jodie's example, rewarding effort). Bridget is more putting effort on cue and asking for above and beyond what they will ever do in the ring. I have yet to see any trainer match her ability to get that much effort and energy out of a dog for obedience.
I'm a big fan and have taught a lot of her stuff to Slater, everything we've done in heeling is due to her, but the whole scheme is not so neatly wrapped up by saying she rewards for effort.
Not sure what you mean by "dog is too driven to be rewarded for effort for a known behavior" (??) This is not an observation I've heard anyone say before. Unless you mean he gets to wound up if you praise for positional work, and loses concentration?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

For the OPer, http://tawzerdog.com/index/default.php and many other doggie netflix type sites offer DVDs to watch by dog trainers.

Here is Bridget Carlsen's site. Her DVD is great, she has a nice collection on youtube, as is very approachable in the online seminar format. http://bridgetcarlsen.com/. She goes the extra mile, and was so incredibly helpful with a newfoundland with whom I work. 

Here is Denise Fenzi's site. She is writing a book that is due out soon. I gravitate to her bc she shares my personal interest in training without aversives, prong collars, leash corrections etc. http://denisefenzi.com/

One good thing to do is put the specific issue- front, finish, fix it- in the larger context of your overall goals and interests for your dog. It's great to be exposed to myriad philosophies and opnions, so you can keep what works and resonates, and leave the rest, according to what fits, you, your dogs, your goals, ethics, and beliefs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> So I guess there is more than 1 way to train these skills?? Who knew!
> LOL!!!


I think that is what it comes down to... 

Because of my instructors - I definitely use "choose to heel" and "find front" games.... 

We do the treat toss games - and that's something I'm doing with my puppy, even if I will not use the "front" word at all at this point. I don't know if it's even true of goldens, but I used to train with people who owned breeds who were very uncomfortable with "front position". More or less it can be a "dominating" issue for them. You are making them sit in front of you while you stand over them. 

My old instructor way back then recommended doing a variety of things to get the dogs comfortable about being in your space, but most specifically putting them in that front position and rewarding and praising them in that space right from the beginning. 

Teaching "bump fronts" - I think something I was told is that it's easier to correct that down the road than it is to correct when the dog isn't sitting close enough. 

With Bertie - I'm bringing him in so he's sitting between my feet, chest and chin touching me, and looking up at me. I think sometimes this helps them learn front position FASTER. And actually with him, he's probably my first puppy who if I pivot or turn away from him while he's presenting front, he scoots around to find front again (between my feet and look up) without me guiding him.

I'm not too concerned about this becoming a bad habit for him, because over time as I build distance with the fronts, I will also be bringing my feet together and closing that "shoot". 

@treat toss comes - this was how I trained drops with Jacks. With Bertie of course, he doesn't have a "wait" or "stay" yet that allows me to get more than a foot away (I'm not hurrying either command) so the treat allows me to get that distance without always needing somebody to hold/release him for me.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> For the OPer, Tawzer Dog Training DVDs Videos Books Continuing Education and many other doggie netflix type sites offer DVDs to watch by dog trainers.
> 
> Here is Bridget Carlsen's site. Her DVD is great, she has a nice collection on youtube, as is very approachable in the online seminar format. Bridget Carlsen - Competition Obedience Training. She goes the extra mile, and was so incredibly helpful with a newfoundland with whom I work.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll check that stuff out. The main thing I'm doing right now is trying to keep it simple fun, and short - about 5-10 minutes 2-3 times per day. As long as she's excited to do it, I must be doing something right (or it could just be the hot dogs ).


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

She sounds like an awesome pup!


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