# Best dry puppy food?



## jwemt81

When you first bring the puppy home, you'll want to keep him/her on the same food that the breeder has been feeding them for at least a few weeks while the pup settles into a new home and gets adjusted to drinking new water and being without the mother and siblings for the first time. A new food will only add another stress on the pup's system. Once you have had the pup home for a few weeks, you can start a gradual and slow transition to a new food. Just make sure to stay away from super high protein foods (such as EVO) until the pup is much older since too much protein can cause them to grow too quickly, which can be detrimental to their growing bones and joints. I personally will only go as high as 30% protein for our dogs. We just switched our boys from California Natural Herring & Sweet Potato, which was about 21% protein, to Fromm Duck & Sweet Potato, which is either 24% or 25% protein. However, there really is no food that is the "right" one. Dog/puppy food is a very touchy topic around here. All dogs are different. While some dogs may do great on one food, other dogs may not do so well on that same food. The best thing to do is to find one food that your pup does well on and stick with that.


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## inge

Just curious, but why do you want grain free? In my opinion, as long as the dog isn't allergic to it, there's no real reason for grain free. I feed my pup Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato, too, and am very happy with it so far.


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## Lilliam

oh, yes, of course...I should have explained myself. I have the border collies on Evo because they're sheepdog competitive trial dogs. The use enormous amounts of energy when they are in the middle of trial season, and even in the "off" time we do agility, so they burn it off quickly. 
I will probably do agility once the puppy gets much, much older....I meant to ask what I should use in the 6 - 8 months as far as puppy food and then later from 8 months to 18 months, when we will begin actively doing agility.
It sounds like there isn't a particular food that most folks use but that there is the same opinion of keeping the puppy towards the lean side.
Did I undertand correctly?
Thank you for your info.


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## jwemt81

It's always best to keep the pup on the lean side, but there isn't one particular brand of food out there that will make that happen. It's all about exercise and the amount of food/treats. It would probably be a good idea to ask the breeder what their dogs have done best on as far as food. They know their dogs better than anyone else. Like inge said, it's really not necessary to feed a grain-free kibble unless the dog specifically has allergies to certain grains.


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## Lilliam

inge said:


> Just curious, but why do you want grain free? In my opinion, as long as the dog isn't allergic to it, there's no real reason for grain free. I feed my pup Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato, too, and am very happy with it so far.


I've always used grain free, holistic foods. I'm not familiar with Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato - seems like it's popular?
I order EVO for my dogs, my cats and my ferrets. (yes, I have ferrets too!) and they do very well on it. Great coats, no stomach troubles at all, no liver or kidney issues, and itty bitty poops!: My cats actually lost weight on Evo. 
Since golden retrievers are new to me, I'm asking folks what suits best. It may be different than what suits my border collies, and if so, I just get something different. But...I really like how all my animals do on Evo.


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## turtle66

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/

This is the website I found most helpful.

Heike


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## Lilliam

jwemt81 said:


> It's always best to keep the pup on the lean side, but there isn't one particular brand of food out there that will make that happen. It's all about exercise and the amount of food/treats. It would probably be a good idea to ask the breeder what their dogs have done best on as far as food. They know their dogs better than anyone else. Like inge said, it's really not necessary to feed a grain-free kibble unless the dog specifically has allergies to certain grains.


Great! Thank you, much appreciated.


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## Lilliam

turtle66 said:


> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/
> 
> This is the website I found most helpful.
> 
> Heike


Oh, YES! I have that site marked...I LOVE their analysis!!! I always refer people to it.

I've often found also that specific breeds may have specific needs.....so I was asking.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

We're Fromm people too. Our springer thrives on it. Their 4-star line is an all stage food so you could use it from pup thru seniors. www.frommfamily.com Many of the online places carry it, and you'll be surprised at not only it's quality but it's reasonable price. For grain free but still a moderate protein level, and more importantly for a pup a reasonable cahos ratio, you can look into NOW grain free. My goldens love it, and I order from www.k9cuisine.com I know a berner breeder who uses it for her adults and pups.


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## Retrievers Rock

I have Molly on Innova Large Breed Puppy. She seems to be doing well on it.


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## Blondie

I have my 20 week old on Innova adult small bite, which she transitioned to very nicely from her two star puppy food at 16 weeks.


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## Jax's Mom

Be careful on how much food and how high in protein it is. My 12 month old just got Panosteitis, and although it may or may not be from the amount of "energy" he consumed, vet told me to lower it now that he has it for a quicker recovery. Whatever you chose, you don't want your Golden growing too quickly.


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## tippykayak

I can't tell you how many times I've heard of Golden puppies getting pano, GI problems, or bone curvature when fed rich boutique foods. This forum is RIDDLED with threads about how grain free, high protein food made a puppy sick. Given your preference for EVO, grain-free, and "holistic" (which has no legal definition) foods, I doubt you'd listen to me, but from what I've seen, fast-growing puppies like Goldens do better on large breed puppy foods from well established manufacturers.

I've always fed the dogs Eukanuba LBP, transitioning to Euk Premium Performance 30/20 and had great success.


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## Lilliam

tippykayak said:


> I can't tell you how many times I've heard of Golden puppies getting pano, GI problems, or bone curvature when fed rich boutique foods. This forum is RIDDLED with threads about how grain free, high protein food made a puppy sick. Given your preference for EVO, grain-free, and "holistic" (which has no legal definition) foods, I doubt you'd listen to me, but from what I've seen, fast-growing puppies like Goldens do better on large breed puppy foods from well established manufacturers.
> 
> I've always fed the dogs Eukanuba LBP, transitioning to Euk Premium Performance 30/20 and had great success.


Wow....I came to this forum for advice on golden retrievers because I'd like to get advice on what is proper for a golden retriever puppy. Had I been closed to new ideas I would not have asked the question. I would say that it is dangerous to form an opinion on someone's personality based on one thread on a forum.
Nutrional needs for different breeds vary, even for individuals within the breed depending on their activites. 
I have fed my dogs grain free foods based on research and vet recommendations their entire lives and none of them have ever had any poblems from "boutique" foods as you call them. As far as well established food, I would suggest that you look at this link http://www.naturapet.com/ . 
And I do look for and strive for a holistic approach to my dogs, I regret that term seems to offend. 
I may be new to golden retrievers, but I have had dogs my entire life. My grandfather trained and raised several gun dogs that he used in the field. I have raised and trained border collies for close to twenty five years. I am simply new to this breed. I am not new to dogs. And each time I've sought advice, I've weighed the information given to me along with my own research.
For your information, I have already started looking at Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato food, which some people have mentioned. But there is no way that I will ever feed a bargain food full of corn from an "established" manufacturer, regardless how mainstream and "established" it may be.


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## tippykayak

Lilliam said:


> Wow....I came to this forum for advice on golden retrievers because I'd like to get advice on what is proper for a golden retriever puppy. Had I been closed to new ideas I would not have asked the question. I would say that it is dangerous to form an opinion on someone's personality based on one thread on a forum.
> Nutrional needs for different breeds vary, even for individuals within the breed depending on their activites.
> I have fed my dogs grain free foods based on research and vet recommendations their entire lives and none of them have ever had any poblems from "boutique" foods as you call them. As far as well established food, I would suggest that you look at this link http://www.naturapet.com/ .
> And I do look for and strive for a holistic approach to my dogs, I regret that term seems to offend.
> I may be new to golden retrievers, but I have had dogs my entire life. My grandfather trained and raised several gun dogs that he used in the field. I have raised and trained border collies for close to twenty five years. I am simply new to this breed. I am not new to dogs. And each time I've sought advice, I've weighed the information given to me along with my own research.
> For your information, I have already started looking at Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato food, which some people have mentioned. But there is no way that I will ever feed a bargain food full of corn from an "established" manufacturer, regardless how mainstream and "established" it may be.


Hey, sorry. I had no intent to offend you. I just have no idea what "holistic" actually means when applied to dog food, and it has no legal definition. So when you say you want a holistic food, I don't know what foods fit that bill. Any dog food company can put "holistic" on the bag. 

I don't think I was wrong when I guessed I wouldn't be l listened to, since you just said you will never, ever feed a food with corn under any circumstances. The foods I feed my dogs and mentioned in my post are not "full of" corn. I believe it to be a superior food to many (or all) boutique foods, or I wouldn't feed it. I can certainly afford $100 bags of dog food if I really thought it was better for the dogs, and living in CT I have easy access to the most rarefied and expensive of boutique dog foods.

I do believe that some dogs suffer from well intentioned owners picking foods that are too rich or nutritionally imbalanced based on criteria that have nothing to do with science and everything to do with marketing. I did not say you were one of these people. I think that when terms like "holistic" and "grain free" get tossed around, there's a danger that uninformed individuals might be pushed towards foods that are not nutritionally balanced, and I feel it's appropriate to provide an opposing viewpoint. Puppies in particular can suffer from this kind of well intentioned obedience to good marketing. Let me emphasize that I am not saying you fall into this category.

You asked what Golden puppies thrive on. I named a food which Golden puppies thrive on (which, at $55 or so a bag, is hardly a bargain). It contains an ingredient you don't like, and despite the utter dearth of scientific studies on dogs and corn, dog food websites continue their prejudice against it. It's completely fine if you want to believe them, but not all of us do. dogfoodanalysis.com is, in my opinion, a load of bunkum.

My dogs eat Eukanuba PP, and it would be hard to imagine more active dogs. We participate casually in agility activities, and we hike all day on many weekends (and all summer). I would not recommend this food for pet dogs who only go on leashed walks, since it's high calorie and might lead to obesity, but I would recommend it to someone like you who gives her dogs a particularly active lifestyle.

I'm familiar with the NaturaPet products, but I can't stand their marketing. I can't even find a definition of "holistic" on their website, so when they say foods are "holistic," what does that actually mean? NaturaPet also uses the word "organic" to describe foods in their Karma line that cannot be USDA labeled as "organic," which I find deceptive. I imagine the Innova Large Breed puppy is a good choice, since it seems appropriately balanced for slow growth. However, it may not fit your criteria, since a lot of its bulk comes from barley and rice.

I'm sure your BCs are happy, glossy, bright-eyed dogs who live a great life, and I'm sure your Golden will be equally well cared for. All I really wanted to do is warn you against foods too rich in calories, protein, calcium, and phosphorus, and many foods that are grain free or say "holistic" on the bag fit that bill. Goldens grow fast, and foods that are imbalanced can have severe, painful, and even permanent health consequences. It's happened a number of times to individuals on this forum. Some things, like pano, typically heal over time, but bones that grow too fast can cause lifelong problems, particularly for a potential athlete.

I'm sorry my first post came across confrontational. It's really hard to write an honest, straightforward post when what I believe is almost completely the opposite of the philosophy your first post seemed to espouse, but I should have been more careful to be clear that my disagreement was intellectual and not a judgment of you personally. My intent was never to offend you or to imply you were anything but a careful, intelligent person who wants the best for your dogs.


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## tippykayak

Jax's Mom said:


> Be careful on how much food and how high in protein it is. My 12 month old just got Panosteitis, and although it may or may not be from the amount of "energy" he consumed, vet told me to lower it now that he has it for a quicker recovery. Whatever you chose, you don't want your Golden growing too quickly.


Do you mind sharing what food he was on when he was diagnosed with Pano? It isn't necessarily the food's fault (and it's definitely not yours!), since sometimes things like Pano happen on their own with no particular help from the pup's diet, but it might help others to know.


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## Jax's Mom

No I don't mind sharing, wish the explanation was more straight forward though. Originally, Jax was on puppy chow as per instructions from the recue we got him from. Upon visiting the vet, we switched him to Orijen for a very brief minute(stomach issues),but quickly had to move to Merrick. He ate that, along with some chopped meat added (about 3-4 tablespoons) until he was about 8 months old. When we got a second dog, we switched to Kirkland signature brand dog food, and continued to add the chopped meat, along with salmon oil supplements and yogurt added daily to his food. I DO think that the added meat may have contributed to some degree, however, we went to the lower protein rich food (from 25% Merrick to 23% Kirkland) but continued to add the chopped meat. I DO think pano may just have a bit of a genetic factor though. Jax is a big dog, grew very quickly, just looks like a "big boy" from when he was young. Jax is 73 lbs and not considered to be overweight by my vet. He did suggest I lower his "energy" intake, so we have cut the chopped meat addition in half and have reduced treats. We also cut back on the amount of kibble given. His pano has improved, but has not gone away completely. It has been 2 weeks since the diagnosis.


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## tippykayak

Jax's Mom said:


> No I don't mind sharing, wish the explanation was more straight forward though. Originally, Jax was on puppy chow as per instructions from the recue we got him from. Upon visiting the vet, we switched him to Orijen for a very brief minute(stomach issues),but quickly had to move to Merrick. He ate that, along with some chopped meat added (about 3-4 tablespoons) until he was about 8 months old. When we got a second dog, we switched to Kirkland signature brand dog food, and continued to add the chopped meat, along with salmon oil supplements and yogurt added daily to his food. I DO think that the added meat may have contributed to some degree, however, we went to the lower protein rich food (from 25% Merrick to 23% Kirkland) but continued to add the chopped meat. I DO think pano may just have a bit of a genetic factor though. Jax is a big dog, grew very quickly, just looks like a "big boy" from when he was young. Jax is 73 lbs and not considered to be overweight by my vet. He did suggest I lower his "energy" intake, so we have cut the chopped meat addition in half and have reduced treats. We also cut back on the amount of kibble given. His pano has improved, but has not gone away completely. It has been 2 weeks since the diagnosis.


It does sound more like he was going to get it one way or the other. It seems unlikely that some chopped meat "caused" it, and 25% isn't particularly high anyway.

Were those large breed puppy blends? Or just puppy food?


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## CarolinaCasey

Lilliam said:


> Wow....I came to this forum for advice on golden retrievers because I'd like to get advice on what is proper for a golden retriever puppy. Had I been closed to new ideas I would not have asked the question. I would say that it is dangerous to form an opinion on someone's personality based on one thread on a forum.
> Nutrional needs for different breeds vary, even for individuals within the breed depending on their activites.
> I have fed my dogs grain free foods based on research and vet recommendations their entire lives and none of them have ever had any poblems from "boutique" foods as you call them. As far as well established food, I would suggest that you look at this link http://www.naturapet.com/ .
> And I do look for and strive for a holistic approach to my dogs, I regret that term seems to offend.
> I may be new to golden retrievers, but I have had dogs my entire life. My grandfather trained and raised several gun dogs that he used in the field. I have raised and trained border collies for close to twenty five years. I am simply new to this breed. I am not new to dogs. And each time I've sought advice, I've weighed the information given to me along with my own research.
> For your information, I have already started looking at Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato food, which some people have mentioned. But there is no way that I will ever feed a bargain food full of corn from an "established" manufacturer, regardless how mainstream and "established" it may be.


You'll find that food is a hot topic here. It is a struggle to find the food that your dog performs best on. I think that you will find the right food for your puppy. I'd suggest starting with the Natura company since you're already feeding EVO. EVO is too high in protein for puppies and they don't recommend it for under age two. If you want grain free, I would suggest California Natural. Numerous members feed CN and are very satisfied. It has minimal ingredients and is great for goldens that notoriously have allergies. If you plan on doing agility, you won't be starting full-out competition until about age 2 because of growth plates. So, at that point you can switch to EVO for the higher protein so that the dog have have more energy for performance. Other excellent brands that members have done well on are Acana, Orijen, and Canidae. I would discuss food with your breeder and see what your pup will come home on. It might be a great food that he does well on!

Melissa


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## Jax's Mom

The Merrick was puppy food, not specific to large breed. 24-25% is pretty average for the percentage in the "better" food brands. Actually, Kirkland, at 23% is on the lower end, which was fine for me since I did supplement with small amounts of real meat. Its funny, that in trying to better for our pups, we actually might be doing them more harm then good.


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## tippykayak

Jax's Mom said:


> The Merrick was puppy food, not specific to large breed. 24-25% is pretty average for the percentage in the "better" food brands. Actually, Kirkland, at 23% is on the lower end, which was fine for me since I did supplement with small amounts of real meat. Its funny, that in trying to better for our pups, we actually might be doing them more harm then good.


I do believe that. Most of what I regard as errors in judgment about dog food are motivated by the best of intentions.

However, I sincerely doubt that you caused his pano by feeding a 23% protein food and small amounts of meat, unless the Kirkland had way too much calcium or something. That seems unlikely.

I will share that my vet, who is very laid back about dog food, was adamant that we feed Large Breed Puppy food to the dog, not regular puppy food, and she cited pano and bone curvature as the main reasons.

I'm so glad you're sharing about Jax. I think we help each other a lot when we share this kind of info. I'm even gladder that he continues to improve.


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## Lilliam

CarolinaCasey said:


> You'll find that food is a hot topic here. It is a struggle to find the food that your dog performs best on. I think that you will find the right food for your puppy. I'd suggest starting with the Natura company since you're already feeding EVO. EVO is too high in protein for puppies and they don't recommend it for under age two. If you want grain free, I would suggest California Natural. Numerous members feed CN and are very satisfied. It has minimal ingredients and is great for goldens that notoriously have allergies. If you plan on doing agility, you won't be starting full-out competition until about age 2 because of growth plates. So, at that point you can switch to EVO for the higher protein so that the dog have have more energy for performance. Other excellent brands that members have done well on are Acana, Orijen, and Canidae. I would discuss food with your breeder and see what your pup will come home on. It might be a great food that he does well on!
> 
> Melissa


Yes, I'm quite familiar with California Natural. My sister feeds her BCs California Natural in winter and gradually switches to Evo during the trial season. I keep mine on Evo because we still do agility, so they're still burning off tons of energy. Plus they usually ride with me, so weight is usually not an issue. Her dogs are off during the non trial season so they tend to pack on a bit of weight.
I agree on not doing agility until they're much, much older. I generally start my guys on weave poles first, since it seems to be the thing that *I* have trouble with. But I don't do that until about 18 months. They're already in close-work training by that time, learning their sides, commands, whistles, etc. but there are no jumps in herding...or there shouldn't be! 

And I usually bring the breeder's food with me and g-r-a-d-u-a-l-l-y change them over. Few bits for a week, handful, quarter cup, etc. 

You know, it's always a very careful thing starting out with a new breed. What applies to one could be completely wrong for another. I've already done the congenital/common illnesses and of course looked at temperament (which was a waste of time, considering how this breed seems to be the perfect companion dog) but I want to start looking at actual individuals and what their humans do with/for them.

In any case, I'm looking forward to a more centered temperament than my BCs. Love them to death, but sometimes the "off" switch doesn't work well.


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## Tahnee GR

Lilliam, you may find this article of interest, regarding feeding young Goldens. I feed Canidae, which is an All Life Stages food, to my dogs from weaning on. I am doing something a little different for my (hopefully) pregnant girl, based on the advice of other breeders, and am feeding her a 30/20 food through her pregnancy. However, the pups will be weaned onto Canidae.

http://www.goldenretriever.lv/Rhonda Hovan Slow Grow 2002.doc

It does seem as though many Goldens have issues with some of the higher end dog foods. Each dog is an individual and what works for one will not necessarily work for others. It can be a bit of a trial and error thing to find the food your dog will thrive on. I would definitely ask the breeder what she recommends and feeds, as that should work for dogs out of her breeding and her lines.


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## Lilliam

Thank you! Love those charts - it gives benchmarks to follow and to take to a vet, exactly what I would need for growth tracking.

I'm intrigued that they recommend adult food immediately. I've read a lot of people doing that. 
Yup - planning to ask the breeder. I'm just trying to get a screenshot of what owners use for their Golden Retriever puppies.


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## Lilliam

@tippikayak - let's agree to disagree in certain approaches to dog welfare and agree in our love and dedication to dogs in general.


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## tippykayak

I think Rhonda's plan is awesome, but I'm not sure in 2002, when that was written, that LBP foods were as available. They accomplish the same goal as feeding ALS food (avoiding the too-rich aspects puppy food), but are balanced with puppies more directly in mind.


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## tippykayak

Lilliam said:


> @tippikayak - let's agree to disagree in certain approaches to dog welfare and agree in our love and dedication to dogs in general.


Absolutely.

I'm only arguing so I can put the point of view out there and hear other sides. I want to know why people are persuaded by words like "holistic" and whether there's any scientific basis in the anti-grain prejudice. I've read a lot, but I haven't read everything.


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## Lilliam

tippykayak said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> I'm only arguing so I can put the point of view out there and hear other sides. I want to know why people are persuaded by words like "holistic" and whether there's any scientific basis in the anti-grain prejudice. I've read a lot, but I haven't read everything.


It seems like this is a very hot topic in this board There are may forums where there are hot topics - Apple/Blackberry, AKC/ASBCH, shod/barefoot eventing.

There are some areas where I keep to my own counsel and simply defer to others to research on their own. I have my vet's advice, other handlers around me who have gone grain free and where the most ambitious of the group feed raw, and my own research. I don't have the knowledge to feed a balanced raw diet, so I go grain free. I invite you to look at the information available as well as information of what a holistic approach means. You have very strong opinions on the subject as do I. Neither of us reached our conclusions on a whim. I do take exception to some of the conclusions that you have drawn and your characterization of grain free as a prejudice. However, it is your prerogative to keep them. The dogs in your picture are beautiful and I'm convinced that you are devoted to them.

I am new to the forum and I don't feel comfortable with such a hot topic in such a new environment, since I have no feel as to whether I'm alone in this view or whether there are others.

I have "performance" dogs who need the caloric and protein intake of a food like Evo. I'm not sure whether you have ever seen a sheepdog trial, but it is generally around ten minutes of grueling work. At a National level it can be 20 minutes of grueling work. Dogs must have the stamina to compete and work like hilldogs do in Scotland.

There are some things I generally don't argue - capital punishment, abortion, gun ownership and now grain free and holistic foods in a forum where I'm brand new. I simply researched and listened to veterinarian practicioners as well as a variety of other individuals around me and arrived at the conclusion that although canids are not obligate carnivores, they do break in favor of meat.


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## babbs

Congrats on deciding on a Golden to add to your family. I had BC's growing up and am on my 3rd Golden now. What WONDERFUL and SMART dogs both breeds are. I love them both and am sure you will too. Whatever food you choose, I can tell it will be a good decision for your needs. I have a 5 month old Golden now whom I fed Innova LBP following the slow growth plan and am now switching to Fromm Adult Gold (Less expensive than Innova) to start the weight gain/growing process as recommended. She's currently 33 lb. Enjoy your new baby!!!


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## Lilliam

babbs said:


> Congrats on deciding on a Golden to add to your family. I had BC's growing up and am on my 3rd Golden now. What WONDERFUL and SMART dogs both breeds are. I love them both and am sure you will too. Whatever food you choose, I can tell it will be a good decision for your needs. I have a 5 month old Golden now whom I fed Innova LBP following the slow growth plan and am now switching to Fromm Adult Gold (Less expensive than Innova) to start the weight gain/growing process as recommended. She's currently 33 lb. Enjoy your new baby!!!


Thank you! 
I love that plan...I love the benchmarking. It's great to see what to expect at all stages. I've never seen anything like that before - perhaps because the needs are different for each breed?


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## fourgoldens

I enjoy to read the post with different views; just not much of a poster ... Fromm foods have been the mainstay here for the past 25 years. Started out on their "mature" which is now called classic. If my memory is correct they were one of the first to use natural preservatives. Internet wasn't around so it was more difficult to research. Currently using the four star and gold lines. All the goldens and now add our new rescue newfie (6 months ago) have done extremely well. Bright eyes, shiney and silky coats. I order fromm from my local pet supply plus store. My back up foods if I ever run out are Merrick whole earth farm and Healthwise. Tried the orijen/evo with runny poos as a result. I was contemplating adding Eukanuba adult as my golden's breeder swears by it. I use a topper of the usual yogurt, pumpkin or canned EVO/CORE/Instinct and now canned fromm made in US. They are big boys, golden is 85 lb, newf 160 lb, their weights are appropriate, as they are very solid and fit. With the heat coming now, they'll run less and swim more as we're minutes from the gulf. Goldens are fantastic additions to the family and enjoy.


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## Lilliam

Oh, I'd hate to run out of food. I keep a running stock of two unopened bags at all times. Which came in quite handy this year when Snowmaggedon hit Maryland. We couldn't get out for days, but all my animals had a stockpile of food. 
Have you considered (or do you) get your food online? That's what I do. It's so convenient!

I use petfooddirect.com.


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## Makino82

My Golden is just over 1 year now, she grew up on Orijen large breed puppy. Her growth rate and weight were normal, and she had plenty of exercise growing up. She's always had a great coat with no skin problems, it did take about a month though before she was 'firm' on the higher protein in the beginning.
Just for interest and because I heard people saying to avoid the higher protein when she was young, I tried switching her to Innova large breed, but there must have been an ingredient that didn't agree with her as she just wouldn't take well to it.
Switched to adult food at about 10 months and she's still thriving between Orijen adult and Orijen Regional Red.
A few months ago at a dog show one of her prizes was a small bag of Now! grain free puppy, so I thought it would be no problem to mix it in with her orijen..but she immediately started developing dark ear wax and ear 'ouchies'...took all the pieces out of her food and the ears cleared up quite quickly! (my suspision was the alfalfa as it was a prominent ingredient and there is no alfalfa in her current food).
Pretty much I guess my whole story just says I'm a fan of Orijen and their LBP formula seemed to work for us, but every dog will thrive on something different!!

p.s.: I could swear my puppy had the energy of a BC when she was young LOL, but she's calmed down big time over the last few months. Good luck on your puppy search!
Personally I would love to get into making my own raw meals, but first I need a deep freeze lol.


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## Lilliam

I have some friends who feed raw. I noticed there is an amazing discussion on another thread surrounding raw. I so want to do it, but my friends have this formula of a certain amount of muscle meat, organ meat, bone...very complicated!
I know someone who swears by Orijen for her Samoyed and her GSD/Malamute. She loves it!
Your dog is gorgeous!!!


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## tippykayak

Lilliam said:


> I do take exception to some of the conclusions that you have drawn and your characterization of grain free as a prejudice. However, it is your prerogative to keep them. The dogs in your picture are beautiful and I'm convinced that you are devoted to them.


Thanks for the nice comment about Jax and Comet!

The word "prejudice" was perhaps a little loaded; I'm sorry for using it in that context. It's just that in these conversations, nobody ever provides _evidence_ that corn or wheat or sorghum is bad for dogs, but I hear so, so many _claims_ that they are. You just said you wanted grain free for your dogs, which I totally respect, particularly since you have dogs who are already thriving on it. I'm always curious about whether there's evidence that grains are bad for dogs, which one of two reasons I'm "arguing" about this. I want to make sure I'm not missing information, and I like to hear many perspectives. The other reason I'm arguing is simply to put out all the anecdotal information I've heard (much of it on this very forum) about Golden puppies getting sick on boutique foods. I think that's a real shame, particularly when the consequences are lifelong.



Lilliam said:


> I invite you to look at the information available as well as information of what a holistic approach means.


I'm very familiar with what "holistic" supposedly means when these dog food companies say it, and I've read much of the popular literature online that drives people towards these boutique foods. But there's no legal definition of holistic, and these companies often have very, very broad definitions of the word when they apply it to their foods, just like Natura's application of the word "organic" to foods that cannot legally be labeled as such. It's not an issue of ignorance that keeps me from liking the word holistic in this context. Quite the opposite.



Lilliam said:


> I have "performance" dogs who need the caloric and protein intake of a food like Evo. I'm not sure whether you have ever seen a sheepdog trial, but it is generally around ten minutes of grueling work. At a National level it can be 20 minutes of grueling work. Dogs must have the stamina to compete and work like hilldogs do in Scotland.


My dogs have this kind of stamina on the Eukanuba PP. I'm not sure if you meant just 20 minutes of grueling work or if that's a typo...our guys are out for hours and hours up and down mountains or fetching and swimming for much, much longer sessions than 20 minutes, and they're doing dead sprints for much longer than that at a stretch too. It's good to know that EVO food can provide that energy. So does the Euk.

There are many ways for a dog to thrive. I'm not laying claim to the "best." I'm just curious about the other ways people feed their dogs, and I'm trying to protect puppies from well-intentioned mistakes in food choices.


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## Lilliam

I have said my last on our conversation regarding food. I said I was not comfortable with the discussion with you because of the challenging nature of your questioning - you are not engaging in a neutral discussion searching for facts but rather taking an argumentative stance. I have said my peace on the subject and do not wish to remain in a confrontation with you. Please understand that I will not broach the subject - please conduct your own research. I have, very early in my involvement in this forum, touched upon a hot topic and I do not wish to remain in an argument.

I am also not going to get into a my-dog-is-more-active-than-yours argument. Rather than explain a national trial and the distance and the physical and mental work involved, I am attaching a primer for last year's event. The usage of the word grueling was not a typo, it was exactly what I meant. Dogs use enormous amounts of energy and during the trialing season they need to be conditioned on day one, so there is no "time off." Running a 450 yard course is normal, every weekend training for us, which when running the full course as if it were a "mini national" can run from 15 to 20 minutes of intense physical and mental activity. This is an activity that engages the entire dog, physically and mentally.

This is the reason for the choices that I make, with my veterinarian's approval, recommendation, guidance - also as I mentioned numerous handlers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6XubwLwrw


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## tippykayak

I embedded the video in a post so people would have an easier time watching it. Very cool stuff!







PS - No trouble about not arguing. Sorry for making you feel so confronted.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

WOW!! THat video is so impressive. Thanks for sharing it.


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## Ranger

Just to add to the convo: Ranger is also on EVO (red meat) as he lives a somewhat more active lifestyle than the normal dog and thrives on it. He only gets 2 cups a day and it keeps him to a lean weight and lasts me over a month, as opposed to the Orijen that lasted me 3 weeks for close to the same price. I find Ranger has better "stamina" on this food so he can keep up hiking with me all day.

Lilliam - I completely understand why you feed your active border collies EVO. BCs burn so many calories because they do everything with so much intensity...even standing still sometimes! And while a herding trial might only be 20 minutes, those dogs are putting every ounce of effort, heart and soul they have into those 20 minutes. Comparing that to my dog who goes hiking for 8 hours a day but is only using about 30-40% of effort is like comparing apples to oranges. Or like racehorses to trail horses. One is working in spurt of energy, the other is working all day at a lower rate.

For puppy food, I'm not much help. I adopted Ranger when he was 9 months old and he'd already been getting adult food. My brother's dog (lab/sharpei X) was on Acana for awhile and did awful on it. Non-stop diarrhea that never got better, dull coat, no energy...they made the switch to Orijen around 5 months and he's been thriving ever since. He's on high protein as well, but he doesn't get much exercise besides playing with my guy.


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## Lilliam

Ranger said:


> Lilliam - I completely understand why you feed your active border collies EVO. BCs burn so many calories because they do everything with so much intensity...even standing still sometimes! And while a herding trial might only be 20 minutes, those dogs are putting every ounce of effort, heart and soul they have into those 20 minutes. Comparing that to my dog who goes hiking for 8 hours a day but is only using about 30-40% of effort is like comparing apples to oranges. Or like racehorses to trail horses. One is working in spurt of energy, the other is working all day at a lower rate.


 
Precisely. If I were to go hiking with my dogs for two hours they would not be anywhere near as tired as if I trained a 450 outrun and one crossdrive. And if I throw in the sheep that attempt to break from the herd and the dog has to hopefully cover of if they escape bring back, or the times we go around the pen if we don't get it right and we get into a horrendously frustrating game of ring-around-the-pen, of if we have to do several outruns, that dog has used up in one twenty minute training session more physical and mental energy than a two hour hike.

That video shows a perfectly executed run with very few mistakes. Trust me, we make A LOT more mistakes, and the more mistakes we make, the more the dog has to cover.

I'm currently battling getting a picture posted, but for some strange reason I can't....it's one of Dru bringing up a 10 head flock of sheep up the mountain in Southern California. Trust me, the stamina he needed to do that was enormous. These are "performance" or "sport" dogs here, but the work is grueling.

http://


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## Lilliam

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> WOW!! THat video is so impressive. Thanks for sharing it.


Thank you!!! I find that explaining a course is painfully boring, watching it is a lot more interesting.


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## Lilliam

OK for some reason I get code handles every time I try to post ppictures. Please excuse me.


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