# June 2017 Retriever News



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

It was an interesting article. I enjoyed the gist of it. I also enjoyed reading Dennis Voigt's thoughts of it on RTF. 

"The authors fell into the trap of using "convention" to justify no in throws. Just because we throw angle back and flat mostly in training does not make in throws wrong. What is a wrong is a bird that the dogs can't judge the angle and whether it is in or back, that, is a deceptive bird. An in throw from a mound into the water as I did today is very clear to the dogs. Perhaps if we didn't throw back so much we wouldn't have to work on over-running and check backs so much! But we do-witness the Y-drill! So I think the discussion was needed but lacked in it's rationale.

My objection was with the "Delayed Mark" discussion. For starters, they confused the issue by discussing Interrupted Marks not Delayed marks. Interrupted marks are where birds are thrown and after a retrieve or two, a blind is run and then the remaining marks. A Delayed Mark is where a bird or two is thrown and retrieved and then another bird is thrown. A Delayed Triple is a very common training test.
These are "conventional" definitions and for reference see also Retriever Field Trial Judging-A Manual-another excellent judging resource (RFTN 2006). Semantics aside, I disagreed with their thesis this test is illegal.

I also disagree that the Rule Book doesn't discuss Mixed tests. It does so in various sections including one on diversion marks and of course a poison bird is a mixed test if the poison bird is retrieved. The Rule Book says that on marked retrieves, the order cannot be specified --referring to the marks not the blinds. This is not an illegal test. Once again see the Judging Manual referenced above for extensive discussion as well as the Judges Corner in back issues of RFTNews.

This test does not prohibit judges from considering Marks are of Primary Importance. As always we are looking for natural talent as well as evidence of trainability and control.

I guess I was surprised no one else raised these points in what is over-all a very good article.

Regards

PS: The discussion on the mat and creeping was relevant also but did not include some real ambiguities between the Rule Book and what some judges think! More to discuss! Consider the difference in the instructions-"All dogs on the Mat for all sends" and "All handlers on the mat for all sends"


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I thought their comments about retired guns was interesting. I've seen guns run a good distance to get behind the holding blind. But if they had the blind closer to the bird, that might push the dog away from the bird since they are taught to not hunt near the blind. So where are retired gunners supposed to go and how far? They also talk about when they should be leaving the area they threw from by only 10-12 feet. I found their information a bit confusing. But I don't know very much about field trials. I do think they are right that judging hasn't kept up with dogs abilities.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Stacey, in the rule book there is a lot of talk about the retired gunners. I know right now they are using those retired sacks or whatever they are which are way more invisible to the dogs at the line but easier to hide the retired gunner. Some folks have complained because the dogs have been conditioned to recognize a holding blind and now they have no reference. I find that kind of odd to say as they are "retired" guns but whatever. In training sometimes there is a holding blind sometimes the gunner hid behind elements in the area. In a trial there will always be a dog that gets "lucky" on something. Wind can help out more than seeing a gunner hiding in a blind. 


IN any case, these dogs get conditioned to anything they have thrown at them. The bottom line is to try to make the best marking test you can and let the dogs eliminate themselves. I've seen judges panic and go both ways, either too hard or too easy. A lot of the times, it is due to gallery pressure which had taught me that when I judge I want the gallery out of ear shot. Its really hard to set up a great trial sometimes with what you have but you just have to do the best you can and be fair about judging the dogs. Most trialers understand that even if they still get disgruntled at the moment.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I haven't seen the retired sacks yet. But our club does use holding blinds. We also use clumps of trees. Last weekend the bird boys hid in some trees after planting the blind. It was interesting because the hidden bird boys were on the way to the blind. So the dogs would discover the bird boys as the dogs were cast across the marsh to the bird. A few dogs were excited to see the bird boys and of course thought they were near the bird and some handlers had difficulty handling dogs beyond the bird boys to the blind. Unfortunately my dog's sire was one of those dogs. I'm not sure how that fits into the scheme of things for setting up a test, but it was an interesting distraction for the dogs. It had more effect than I expected.


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