# Big golden playing too rough with puppy



## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

I don't know if I'm a nervous Nellie, or if I'm being a responsible owner...We brought Milo, the puppy, home just a week ago. I had imagined that our Maizie, now almost two years old, would love playing with the puppy, once she adjusted to him. It seems like that may never happen.

First, let me say that, despite all our attempts to socialize Maizie, she is quite reactive to people and to dogs. I've taken her to several obedience classes where she is over the top in jumping and lunging for the first ten minutes or so, then she's learned to settle and get to work. We live in the country and she has access to places for off leash running - I never wanted to take her to dog parks - so she isn't used to interacting with other dogs. We live in an area where there aren't any people we know that want to get their dogs together for 'play dates.' 

Along comes Milo - he's 8 1/2 weeks old and a more laid back and relaxed fella...but he's a puppy. He wants to play, play, play!!! Maizie was stand-offish in the beginning, but once she decided to play with him, I think she is much too rough. If we let them go, she gets overtop of Milo and tries to hold him down or lay on him. She opens her mouth and puts it on his neck or looks like she's trying to put his head in her mouth. She uses her paws to hold him down. He makes a few noises of protest, gets in a bite on Maizie's ear or something once in awhile so that she squeaks a protest, and he keeps coming back for more if we pull her off him. I try to pull him away from her but it isn't easy sometimes when she's over top of him. I almost wonder sometimes if she's trying to claim him as her's, but maybe that's my dramatic imagination. 

I came to the forum to find some answers about what to do. Some of the older threads even have videos of other people's dogs and puppies playing together. I know I'm not the first to encounter this problem and should have probably seen it coming. But even in the videos of other people's dogs, I've mostly seen the puppy playing too rough and the older dog showing the younger one where the limits are. Not the older dog instigating rough play. I feel like I have an older dog that doesn't know the limits herself and I just don't know what to do. Keeping them separated seems like it won't solve the problem. But it has only been a week, so maybe it is still early yet in the whole adjustment process. My DH thinks we should keep them separated until Milo weighs 30 or 40 pounds, but I can't see how that could help things ( and it will be very hard to do). Only make the play that much rougher when it does happen. 

Can anybody give advice? I just don't know when to draw the line and I'm afraid we will do the wrong thing and make the problem worse. We have tried telling Maizie very sternly that it is "Enough" and "no teeth". I'm not sure what all the dog body language means or what our intervening would mean to the dog and puppy. 

With my rose-colored glasses on, I had visions of them lying on the couch with the puppy's head on Maizie...but it isn't happening. :uhoh:


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Does the pup ever yelp or whine like he is in pain?


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

If he isn't then I would just supervise them carefully, but let them play. Many dogs love rough play. My three play really rough, but they have never hurt each other. On the bright side it will help take care of any excess energy.


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## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

No, no yelp or whine from the puppy. Some noises, but not like he's in pain. 


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Mom of Maizie said:


> No, no yelp or whine from the puppy. Some noises, but not like he's in pain.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


I would personally let them then. If you have ever watched a mom Golden play with their pups they pin them, pull on their tails, fake bite their heads etc. (at least the ones I've seen).


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Here are some shots of my two year old collie playing with my new puppy. The faces look terrible and the growling and yowling sound like they're fighting, but it's all play. My vet said it was very important for them to learn to interact now while the puppy is still small. Always supervise and keep valuable bones picked up, but let them play.


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## Tuco (Jan 3, 2013)

When dogs play it looks like they are killing each other. Tuco and his buddies Monty or Sheldon will draw blood but if we take them away from each other they get sad.

General rule is no pain, no running out of fear and no whimpering.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Since you say she doesn't have great dog-to-dog manners, I would intervene when you see her doing something that is poor doggie manners. The difficulty is knowing what is okay and what isn't. Bitey-face is fine. Anything that could hurt the pup is not. 

It doesn't sound like she's hurting him, though. The tell is that he keeps going back for more play time. If he was hurt or scared, you'd 1) hear it - he'd be yelping or crying, and 2) he would keep his distance. but going back to engage in play? He's fine. just keep an eye on them and do some research on what's ok and what's not. Otherwise, let the puppy tell you.

Though, there will be a time when the pup does something that will irritate your gal and she will scold him. There will be a lot of caterwauling from the pup, but don't coddle him and don't get after her. 

My dog is crazy patient with pups and i worried that my first foster was playing too rough with HIM. Foster pup would pull on ranger's tail so hard, that ranger would get dragged backwards on the hardwood floor. Finally, little pup got too big for his britches. he walked right up to ranger, who was laying on the floor with his ear flopped up...and little foster pup bit the inside of ranger's ear. Ranger growled and snapped - but he did NOT touch the pup! I saw everything and a true scold doesn't involve teeth on puppy. and it's a good thing I did see it, because from the way little puppy carried on, you'd have thought ranger had taken a chunk out of him. he cried, he howled, he had his tail tucked between his legs...but 3 minutes later, he went over to ranger, licked his face, and they were playing 3 minutes after that.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

_"Maizie was stand-offish in the beginning, but once she decided to play with him, I think she is much too rough. If we let them go, she gets overtop of Milo and tries to hold him down or lay on him. She opens her mouth and puts it on his neck or looks like she's trying to put his head in her mouth. She uses her paws to hold him down. He makes a few noises of protest, gets in a bite on Maizie's ear or something once in awhile so that she squeaks a protest, and he keeps coming back for more if we pull her off him."_

This all sounds very normal to me. But I can see why it would make you nervous. When dogs get too excited, it's not bad to give them a break. I do that by calling one to me, and having the dog sit and get petted for a minute or two. It breaks the intensity and fierceness, and then I release them to play again. 

You need to keep an eye on their interactions, but as someone already said, the best indicator is the puppy's willingness to go back for more. As time passes, also, you'll hear the changes in their tones of voice when barking and squeaking and that will tell you if it's getting scary rough. It's very important for your puppy to be able to play now, not later, and you're right that it shouldn't wait until he's bigger. Puppies get something called a "puppy license" from adult dogs. The older dogs will allow a lot of misbehavior because they know they're dealing with a baby. After a month or two the license expires, and the older dog will assert itself. I'm guessing Maizie is doing just fine or playing appropriately and on teaching Milo his doggie manners.


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

I'd let'em play, Goldens play rough anyway, from what I've seen. I swear when Mav and his buddy Max play they're out to hurt each other, but in the end they end up laying on each other when they're calling it quits. 

I would be careful as it's just a puppy though, but I'm sure it's all fun and love goin on.


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## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. The photos help a lot also. 

I guess the consensus is that it is normal and I will try to supervise without intervening too much.  Wow, it's hard for me to watch sometimes!!! LOL!
Maybe I just need to go observe at a dog park or something...without my dogs. I don't have any experience with what is normal play for dogs or a dog and a puppy.


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## Goldenhouse (May 23, 2013)

My Neon plays rough with my 2 yr old Alice also, here's a picture to prove that. But she can be a little angel too.















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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

If you scroll through the photos in Yogi's thread in my signature, you will see lots of playfighting and angry bitey faces over the past 6 months. Both dogs initiate it and it is fun for both. I always supervise and call it off with treats if one or both get too tired. It is a great way to get two tired dogs!

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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> If you scroll through the photos in Yogi's thread in my signature, you will see lots of playfighting and angry bitey faces over the past 6 months. Both dogs initiate it and it is fun for both. I always supervise and call it off with treats if one or both get too tired. It is a great way to get two tired dogs!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Funny--was just going to suggest this to the OP!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Mom of Maizie said:


> Thanks for the replies. The photos help a lot also.
> 
> I guess the consensus is that it is normal and I will try to supervise without intervening too much.  Wow, it's hard for me to watch sometimes!!! LOL!
> Maybe I just need to go observe at a dog park or something...without my dogs. I don't have any experience with what is normal play for dogs or a dog and a puppy.


IMO, you're better off looking at the videos of "bitey face" on here. There are a bunch. Goldens have a particular play style and other breeds have theirs. Since you're supervising two GRs, I'd suggest learning that style first. My Tucker used to play with a boxer BFF at the dog park. Lots of fun, but really different! If he played like that with Bella, I'd probably intervene.

jCame back to add link to video that I posted a while back: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...er-bella-having-fun-sun-dirt.html#post2747442


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

I agree with the let-them-play, it looks and sounds much worse than it is.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Here is another picture:


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

And just before that:


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## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

LOL! The pictures are priceless! I think I'm beginning to understand that a lot of the rough play is normal. @Inge, the photos you posted are great. I saw the first one above and thought, nope, that's not like ours. Then saw the second one and thought, yep...that's just like ours with the bitey face!!!

I've got to find a way to relax through all this. Trouble is, I hear stories...like someone told me about a puppy they knew that got its eye injured playing rough with an older dog and then it was blind in one eye for life. So, despite those kinds of stories, I've got to let some of this go on and just hope that my stepping in to calm it down is soon enough that Milo doesn't get hurt. And hope that I don't interfere so often that they get some behavior problem started because of my intervention. I'm going to try wearing Maizie out with a long walk this morning before I let them play.


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## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

OutWest said:


> IMO, you're better off looking at the videos of "bitey face" on here. There are a bunch. Goldens have a particular play style and other breeds have theirs. Since you're supervising two GRs, I'd suggest learning that style first. My Tucker used to play with a boxer BFF at the dog park. Lots of fun, but really different! If he played like that with Bella, I'd probably intervene.
> 
> jCame back to add link to video that I posted a while back: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...er-bella-having-fun-sun-dirt.html#post2747442


This video reminds me of what it looked like when Maizie used to play with her sister Daisey occasionally. They haven't played together in awhile, but it helped to remind me that my Maizie really has had some experience with appropriate play and she probably does really know some of the doggy rules of play. Thanks!


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## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> If you scroll through the photos in Yogi's thread in my signature, you will see lots of playfighting and angry bitey faces over the past 6 months. Both dogs initiate it and it is fun for both. I always supervise and call it off with treats if one or both get too tired. It is a great way to get two tired dogs!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Your thread is amazing! I've read it before, but I'm working my way back through it with the idea in mind to pay more attention to the playfighting. Thanks!


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## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

Just want to add, I messaged the teacher for Maizie's obedience class and she suggested we click and treat to reinforce appropriate play for Maizie. We are beginning to do that some. Also, trying some activities where Maizie and Milo are doing more structured activities side by side, such as loose leash walking, coming when called, name game, puzzle toys. These seem to be helping, too. 


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## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

Just thought I'd add to this thread now that I have a little more experience. Milo is four months old today and as I type this he is playing with Maizie and they play quite nicely now. They still do a lot of bitey face play but I rarely have to step in to referee. They usually are quite good at communicating with each other if things are getting too rough. They often take a few moments break. They play with toys much more than ever now. They play keep away and chase, their favorites. I'm guessing Milo is still about half Maizie's weight, but he holds his own in all this. Maizie can run faster, but Milo can make turns and think quickly where he is going to go next. They are a joy to have around!!! They are becoming what I'd imagined we'd have with two goldens in the house!!! 

P.S. I just heard my DH at the door say, "Man, you're such a pair! You're just perfect!"


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Missed this thread the first time but really happy to hear that's they've worked things out.


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## RickiJade (Apr 20, 2015)

Hi, this thread gave me so much comfort. I have the exact problem. Would love to know how everything turned out in the end and how long the rough play lasted. Our pup has now been with us for a week and a half!


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## Susan: w/ Summit we climb (Jun 12, 2014)

Mom of Maizie said:


> Just thought I'd add to this thread now that I have a little more experience. Milo is four months old today and as I type this he is playing with Maizie and they play quite nicely now. They still do a lot of bitey face play but I rarely have to step in to referee. They usually are quite good at communicating with each other if things are getting too rough. They often take a few moments break. They play with toys much more than ever now. They play keep away and chase, their favorites. . . . They are a joy to have around!!! They are becoming what I'd imagined we'd have with two goldens in the house!!!
> 
> P.S. I just heard my DH at the door say, "Man, you're such a pair! You're just perfect!"


This is like our two. We were nervous at first and kept telling Summit to leave Jet alone when it looked like he was too rough with our calm Jet, but Summit knew what he was doing. And they do play with toys much more often than a single pup does. They use the toys to attract one another's interest, but it quickly turns into a wrestling match.


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## RickiJade (Apr 20, 2015)

Who is usually on top, the puppy or adult or do they switch? The sounds that come out of their mouths are terrifying ?


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## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Yes it is terrifying when your pup first arrives. 

For us it is the little one that jumps, bites and tugs at the older one. The sounds are extraordinary and "vicious". However it did not take long to figure out that this is just play, just like a real brother and sister who like to wrestle. It can look and sound terribly aggressive with snarling and the display of teeth but there is never any blood and they always go back for more.

In case it gets a bit too rough I do not allow wrestling near me so we have created a "safe zone." That way if my boy needs somewhere to have a rest he knows that he can rely on me.

Check out You Tube for videos of litter mates playing with each other. They think nothing of biting and jumping on each other. In fact it is viewed as acceptance or friendship.

How long this active play will go on for depends on the age of your other dog. Young dogs like to release their abundant energy through play. With an older dog the pup will get the hint that they don't really feel like playing.

However there are also some cases where the older dog will tell the pup off for being annoying if need be. I concur that it is hard to tell at first if it is true aggression or if they are only playing. However in most cases they are only playing and a part of being a fun loving golden.


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

Been there and understand how you feel. Bear was too rough and for my peace of mind I got a behaviourist into our home for a couple of sessions. Best thing I did. I knew how to control the situation which was the best thing I got out of it. I had thoughts of how am I ever going to leave them alone, but by the time Stormy was 5 months they were alone in the house for extended time because by then we had all completely relaxed and the at between them was very balanced. Now they are inseparable. 






Bear was constantly standing over her
And I didn't know how to handle it. This phase will pass and now the play is great. If people see my two play people think they're hurting each other as they are rough and very vocal, but it's just play. Just a tip in the meantime, when they're interacting, watch the position of the puppy's tail. If it's between the legs, separate them for a brief time out.


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## Denlie (Nov 3, 2011)

I had the same fears when we brought Annabeth home. I was the epitome of a helicopter mom.


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## RickiJade (Apr 20, 2015)

What a cute pic! 

The older (Baxter) one is 1 year, so he is full of energy and often wants to play when the puppy (Harvey) wants to sleep. Play starts of calm and quiet and it's only when Baxter starts getting really rough will Harvey become vocal and yelp like he is in pain. Then when I separate them a few sometimes Harvey goes back and initiates and the whole thing starts again. Baxter also steals all the toys Harvey plays will but I think this is all part of a game cause he wants Harvey to chase him and when he doesn't he dangles the toy in his face. 

I'm looking very forward to the time I can leave the 2 to play outside together, go out and not have to worry them together. It's only been 2 weeks so it's still early days but still scary! 

Thanks for the reassurance.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I missed this thread. Fun read. 

As I look over my iPhone I see Max and Emma in a serious case of the crocodile death roll. Except that it's EMMA rolling Max!!!!! He's almost 5 years old and she's seventeen weeks today. It sounds awful. 

One thing to note in all dog play.....if they take turns "winning" then it's all good. Max will let Emma win sometimes and then he'll pun her down. It looks awful but it's all good fun. Trust me she can be quite the "aggressor" when it's her turn to "win"!!!!!


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