# Anyone know anything about this breeder?



## Bender

They don't seem to list registered names or any clearances - huge red flag. If you are interested I would suggest you ask for that information. Also concerns me that they have puppies for sale and a lot of litters posted - why aren't they taking names and planning a litter? The stud dogs seem to be owned by them as well, it's not that often that the perfect match is in the backyard. The dogs don't impress me as far as looks or anything goes, not bad looking goldens but I would ask what they are breeding for - show, working, pet, what are they looking to improve and so on. They hint at field but I don't see one picture of a dog with a bird, just some pictures of guys in camo hunting gear (they could be deerhunting with nothing to do with the dogs). What I see is they just breed their dogs to sell the puppies, without a lot of thought into the whole thing. If you look at their contract, they only give a 14 DAY guarantee (giant neon red flag!!!) and their only policy is that you return the dog to them. They will not cover any vet expenses related to poor breeding or otherwise.

The training - I don't like seeing 'no treat' training. Goldens tend to be very food motivated, and positive training works so much better. If they are not using food as a reward, what are they using? Is the training correction based (often I find the 'no food' trainers use harsh corrective methods)? If you get a puppy from them is it manditory to then pay for the training? Is that what you'd be comfortable doing? What if the training style doesn't work for your lifestyle (some insist you NEVER give the dog a cookie)?

Their training contract says enough:

*Dog training is inherently dangerous. The style of dog training I am agreeing to requires my dog be exposed to numerous dangerous situations. I agree and give permission for my dog to participate in this training with the understanding that injuries may occur. I understand that Just Behaving, Dan Roach, Heidi Harris or any person or property associated with this training WILL NOT cover any veterinary costs (or costs of any kind) if my dog is injured or lost (including death). 
The style of dog training I am choosing focuses on real life situations including being off leash, exposure to aggressive dogs and behavior modification environments. I understand that my dog will be unsupervised at times, will spend time unsupervised with other dogs and will be in an environment where my dog may engage in unsupervised dog interaction. I understand that my dog may be injured or lost during this training and I release all parties of liability. * 


RUN! RUN FAST!!!! I can't imagine any sane person signing a contract like that and handing over the leash. Injured, lost or killed for 'training'??? Yikes.

Lana


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## Florabora22

Bender said:


> RUN! RUN FAST!!!! I can't imagine any sane person signing a contract like that and handing over the leash. Injured, lost or killed for 'training'??? Yikes.
> 
> Lana


I agree!!  And I pity the poor dogs that have to go through that kind of training.


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## GoldensGirl

OMG!!!! I can't believe that kind of "training" is legal! RUNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Better yet, run to the authorities who can put them out of business!

:FIREdevil:cavalry::FIREdevil


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## vcm5

That is horrifying! I would definitely steer clear of this particular breeder! But don't give up, I'm sure we can help you find a reputable breeder in your area!

Another red flag is that they are listed on nextdaypets.com - not a good sign!


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## vcm5

And I know that this is a little insignificant thing, but on the puppy page they have the four litters listed (which in itself, as has been pointed out, is a red flag - too many litters at once) and for a few of them they list the puppies as "Sold Out." I know its silly, but this wording just strikes me wrong - they aren't consumer products, they are living breathing puppies!


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## rhondas

I agree with everyone. Run...


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## Sally's Mom

Dallas, the mother of one of the litters will be two 9/11. So that means not only is she a mother before two, but can't have final OFA's. RED FLAG!!! No registered names. RED FLAG!!! Like everyone else, I find them on next day pets. RED FLAG!!! And $1750 for a pup with parents with no apparent titles and possibly no close ancestors with titles? RED FLAG!!!
In NH, try: Profile, Sunkissed, or Watersedge(Bow,NH)... Shalva, a member here is from NH and could maybe help. In Maine, try Tashel or Tairis... Contact Yankee Golden Retriever Club for referrals. There are many resources available.


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## GoldensGirl

Where is PointGold?! This thread _needs_ her.


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## vcm5

I think the consensus is pretty clear on this breeder unfortunately. But I hope you aren't getting discouraged. Just because this breeder isn't the right one, doesn't mean you won't find the perfect person to purchase your puppy from! The right breeder is definitely out there, even though I know it can be a little overwhelming!


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## K9-Design

Bender said:


> Their training contract says enough:
> 
> *Dog training is inherently dangerous. The style of dog training I am agreeing to requires my dog be exposed to numerous dangerous situations. I agree and give permission for my dog to participate in this training with the understanding that injuries may occur. I understand that Just Behaving, Dan Roach, Heidi Harris or any person or property associated with this training WILL NOT cover any veterinary costs (or costs of any kind) if my dog is injured or lost (including death).
> The style of dog training I am choosing focuses on real life situations including being off leash, exposure to aggressive dogs and behavior modification environments. I understand that my dog will be unsupervised at times, will spend time unsupervised with other dogs and will be in an environment where my dog may engage in unsupervised dog interaction. I understand that my dog may be injured or lost during this training and I release all parties of liability. *


Good lord that is absolutely insane. *** kind of training are they doing? Bomb detection taught by rabid wolves? These people are nuts.


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## vcm5

K9-Design said:


> Good lord that is absolutely insane. *** kind of training are they doing? Bomb detection taught by rabid wolves? These people are nuts.


Haha this made me laugh. But seriously, it sounds absolutely crazy. I would be terrified letting my dog go there! It is kind of sad when you think about it. I would never want my dog purposely placed in dangerous situations and to go unsupervised. If they had that big of an issue with dogs running away or getting injured/killed, why wouldn't they rethink this training program?


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## timberwolf

Bender said:


> Their training contract says enough:
> 
> *Dog training is inherently dangerous. The style of dog training I am agreeing to requires my dog be exposed to numerous dangerous situations. I agree and give permission for my dog to participate in this training with the understanding that injuries may occur. I understand that Just Behaving, Dan Roach, Heidi Harris or any person or property associated with this training WILL NOT cover any veterinary costs (or costs of any kind) if my dog is injured or lost (including death). *
> *The style of dog training I am choosing focuses on real life situations including being off leash, exposure to aggressive dogs and behavior modification environments. I understand that my dog will be unsupervised at times, will spend time unsupervised with other dogs and will be in an environment where my dog may engage in unsupervised dog interaction. I understand that my dog may be injured or lost during this training and I release all parties of liability. *


That makes me sick to my stomach!!!


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## goldensrbest

Is there some one, to look into this breeder cause this sounds really awfull, for those dogs.


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## K9-Design

Really I am scratching my head at their training. Someone who has looked at the website, is this training for pets/basic obedience or hunting or what?
Even a hunt test/retriever/hunting pro trainer would never have such ridiculous jargon in their contract or website.


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## caseypooh

This is just awful, couldn't they be reported or something for animal cruelty? Or at least be visited to check for cruelty.


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## goldensrbest

By any chance, is this fake?


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## vcm5

goldensrbest said:


> By any chance, is this fake?


I would certainly hope it was but I don't think so...


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## oakleysmommy

i would love to speak to this breeder on the phone and question her as to what kind of insane training is she talking about???


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## Jo Ellen

oakleysmommy said:


> i would love to speak to this breeder on the phone and question her as to what kind of insane training is she talking about???


Exactly what I was thinking. So bizarre, shocking really. Exposure to aggressive dogs? Begs the question, not only what kind of breeder this is but what kind of people are taking ownership of these dogs


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## hvgoldens4

The training clause is absolutely ridiculous!!! Why would anyone give their dog over to someone, let alone pay them for the service, of harming or killing their dog? A person will put into words what has happened in the past to protect themselves and that thought really bothers me. Another problem is WHY would your dog be left unsupervised with other dogs it doesn't know? This is just an accident waiting to happen. I would also like to know just what type of training they could possibly be doing that would lead them to have such a clause? Having trained many dogs in my lifetime-classes and privately, I can't ever imagine asking someone to sign a contract so utterly crazy.

RUN, don't walk, RUN!!!


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## jackie_hubert

Can someone from MA please follow up with the authorities?


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## oggi

That's kind of what I figured - we're not seriously considering this breeder, I was just curious as they'd contacted us about a puppy and thought that was weird. Thanks all for the confirmation of what I'd already suspected...I spoke to someone who had reserved a puppy with them and they said they had no response when they tried to set up a meeting to choose their puppy and not even a returned call! The dogs seemed to be treated like machines for profit rather than dogs. Hopefully this thread will help some other people steer clear as well! 

That said, we've found a much better breeder, and very soon we'll have a new puppy in the house


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## Denise56

*Just Behaving in Rowley, MA*

They are the best ever. I got my Scooby there in July and take him there once a week to board him because he has so much fun there and the owners are so nice..................


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## VickiR

Alaine Hamilton of Dromara Goldens just moved to MA. She's a reputable breeder but I am sure she needs to settle in before she breeds again.


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## mikerugg

*Who are you people?*

Who are you people and what are your qualifications to make these judgements from a web page? Have you visited, which anyone can do any time? Except for a few the rest of you live far away. What do you know about Massachusetts and living here with dogs? This whole scare put down started by Bender that lives in Alberta Canada! Stick to your own territory and leave reviews to people who live here and have first-hand knowledge. They have beautiful dogs and I'm getting one tomorrow, with papers! And I'm not interested in their training so what's the big deal, don't do it. This will be our 7th golden which includes some rescues so I think I know more than some idiot thousands of miles away.


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## LJack

mikerugg said:


> Who are you people and what are your qualifications to make these judgements from a web page? Have you visited, which anyone can do any time? Except for a few the rest of you live far away. What do you know about Massachusetts and living here with dogs? This whole scare put down started by Bender that lives in Alberta Canada! Stick to your own territory and leave reviews to people who live here and have first-hand knowledge. They have beautiful dogs and I'm getting one tomorrow, with papers! And I'm not interested in their training so what's the big deal, don't do it. This will be our 7th golden which includes some rescues so I think I know more than some idiot thousands of miles away.


Since you asked...
Hi, I am Laura. I was raised by a Golden breeder and am now myself a breeder. We don't just breed though. I am what is called a serious hobby breeder, what most people are referring to when they say a reputable breeder. That means my first and foremost goal is to have a next generation dog that I can compete with and that means I need to breed for myself. I compete in conformation, but honestly it doesn't matter what you compete in. Just getting out with your dog around other breeders and exhibitors creates a space to learn more. At this point in my life I honestly cannot even count how many goldens I have seen in competition and just as pets. I am also a member of the GRCA and believe firmly in the code of ethics that is designed to guide breeders to making their best decision for creating the next generation of goldens. This code of ethics includes which health tests should be conducted on Golden Retrievers prior to breeding. In case you were curious they are- hips, elbows, eyes annually, and heart by cardiologist. There are additional test that can be run but those four are considered the basics of good breeding programs. 

I am new to this thread but I will echo the sentiments of many others who are very much like me, active in the world of Goldens every day. This breeder is not meeting the minimum criteria for health testing in Goldens. I don't have to go across the country to see that. There is a publicly verifiable database www.offa.org where I can see that they don't meet these basics. What's more concerning is the misleading or incorrect information on their website. It does not match on several dogs what they actually have in the publicly verifiable OFA database.

Mike I'm sure that you've already made your decision and that you're happy with it and that's why you're upset to find a thread like this. It is very aggravating to have your decisions question by faceless people on the Internet.

There is also the possibility that you might be the owner of the kennel. Sadly people have done that before, logging in and posing as one of their buyers trying to salvage or distract from their bad reputation.

If you're happy with your decision, pick up your puppy and and enjoy him or her. 

If you're interested in learning what you are and are not about to buy then I'll be posting some photos from OFA so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.


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## G-bear

Perhaps you did not notice the dates but the OP posted this thread as a question over 5 years ago. There have been no additional posts to this thread since 2012. I would suggest that the best way to join GRF is probably not to refer to a member as "an idiot". Many of those who participate on this board and who come to this forum are looking for information on reputable breeders. Those would be breeders who participate in golden retriever events, breed to improve the lineage and maintain the breed standard. They perform the clearances which will help reduce the incidence of things such as hip displaysia, elbow displaysia, congenital heart and eye problems. Those clearances (which are not cheap for a breeder to have done) while not a guarantee of a healthy dog will go a long way towards making sure that dogs who exhibit problems in these areas are not bred. I am not a breeder but I have a great deal of respect for members on this forum who are reputable breeders. I also have a great deal of respect for those on this forum who willingly share their knowledge. Members here come from all over the world and there is a fantastic wealth of information which is shared here.I have had multiple dogs (always at least 2) in my home for the last 40 plus years. I am by no means an expert and I, personally, have learned a great deal via this forum and it's members. I would strongly encourage you to avoid calling members of this forum idiots. I think that if you were to stick around you may find that even a self proclaimed expert such as yourself could possibly LEARN something. But that choice, sir, is up to you. Best wishes with your puppy.


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## LJack

I simply looked at their website for the most recent litter postings and here's what I found.

Both litters share the same dad. As mentioned earlier in the thread this is a method used by commercial breeders who want to produce the maximum amount of puppies with the least investment. The thought of these breeders is, "Why spend money taking your girl to the best boy when you have an unrelated boy in your yard?"

Sadly this boy is missing both hip and elbow certifications and his eye certification has expired.

His mom apparently had no health testing. His father had a preliminary Report on his hips but nothing for his elbows, either way he does not have any adult certifications. You also see the bulk of his full and half siblings are missing multiple certifications.


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## LJack

Penny is the mom of one litter.
You will see I notated the missing certifications right on the photo this time. She is missing hip and elbow certifications and her eye certification is expired. Also her mother is missing and elbow certification. 

The part that concerns me is that on their website for Nala they listed as pending which is incorrect it's not pending if you never got it or if your dog failed.


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## LJack

The mom of the other litter is Pope.

This girl also has an expired Eye certification. She does have an elbow certification but is missing her hip certification. Since hip and elbow x-rays are almost always taken together it likely means she has hip dysplasia. On their website they go so far as to post that she does have a hip certification but research on OFA shows it belongs to another dog.


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## LJack

I hope Mike that you can see that this is the issue with the breeder. We are not looking to pick on anybody. The fact is we actually don't need to visit any breeders house to see that their dogs do or don't have health certifications.

In case you need it, here is what full certifications should look like. And IMHO if you are paying more than $1200, you should be getting hips, elbows, eye and heart certs on the parents.


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## Prism Goldens

LJack said:


> The mom of the other litter is Pope.
> 
> This girl also has an expired Eye certification. She does have an elbow certification but is missing her hip certification. Since hip and elbow x-rays are almost always taken together it likely means she has hip dysplasia. On their website they go so far as to post that she does have a hip certification but research on OFA shows it belongs to another dog.


The litters listed on the webpage are from 2014- but that aside, they still published a lie. The certs listed for Pope are not hers. I would run so fast, when someone publishes a lie (and Pope does not have any hip/elbow on OFA). Even if you run with what they say the relatedness is (so and so is daughter of such and such, etc) there are still no clearances for many of their dogs.


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## Prism Goldens

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals Pius. 
Here is sister Pope- Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
and she's missing hips (so is dysplastic or borderline unless Mr Roach is so uninformed he doesn't do hips but does do elbows, not likely....). 
Also, these 'latest generation' dogs come from parents with no clearances. 
According to k9data, they also owned the dam, no clearances- sigh...
Goldens have so many health issues, it makes me sad to know they will be making yet another generation of animals who suffer as a result of their poor choices.


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## RobinRiley

I have a golden from here. I went several times to the location found it clean and comfortable for All Pets there including the ones they adopted. Dan and Heidi's dogs were extremely well-behaved dogs all off leash at all times and totally under control. My golden has had no skin issues or any other issues thank God.She is now almost 4. When I purchased her we mostly worked with Dan. He was very thorough and asked many questions and especially focused on what type of dog we were looking for. Dan asked many questions on previous dogs we had and what type of behavior we were used to. We told him our previous golden was very mellow and sweet and gentle very easy to train. He had one Golden from a litter that he said would be very difficult to train he felt she would be stubborn like her mom And would need lots of open space so we decided not to take her at that time. I truly was not ready after losing my first golden and was still very emotional. Thankfully We went back we decided to take her even though he gave us the option to have the pick of the litter from his next litter. Well boy was he right my little girl I received was very tough to train however she now is excellent. She as a puppy wanted to do whatever she wanted if it involved having fun and she did  he was right because he knew exactly what she would be Like. He said she would be tough and she was. I'm glad I had his experience 2 guide me in what to expect. All of the dogs he had were absolutely stunning and I even offered to take one of his females off his hands at the time  she was an absolute love I still think of her and would love to have her. His dogs were well loved and well cared for. I highly recommend them!! Also after talking with him I found that my first golden was bred with one of his males. When I tell you she was an absolute perfect dog she was for sure. I think she had more friends than I did  she was well-loved and a great dog.

I'm glad a photo that looked like her led me to his site. I'm not an expert but I can tell you his dogs were well cared for and well-loved. I'm guessing his clause sounds harsh but maybe perhaps it covers when the dogs are off leash so that if anything God forbid should happen they are protected legally but I'm not an expert there either. If you're still looking for a golden visit them they were perfect hosts with my needs and the dog needs in mind.


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## G-bear

I see that this was your first post. Welcome to GRF. I am glad that you are happy with your dog but I think you missed the point of the previous posts. No one is saying that the breeder isn't a nice person. I'm glad he was nice to you. The point that LJack and Prism Goldens are making is that the breeder doesn't have complete clearances on his dogs. I'm not going to reiterate the reasons for having clearances since you can read the previous posts if you are interested. A lot of nice people breed dogs. A reputable breeder will have clearances. That was the point of the previous posts.


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## K9-Design

Garlic Elixir? Pope Roach? These people even need help naming their dogs.....


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## lizzie24

where did you find the language in that contract? Because I dont see it anywhere. Additionally, I see they are registered with the American Kennel Club and shall meet AKC breed standards.


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## Prism Goldens

lizzie24 said:


> where did you find the language in that contract? Because I dont see it anywhere. Additionally, I see they are registered with the American Kennel Club and shall meet AKC breed standards.


This is an old thread... but fwiw a breeder cannot be 'registered w AKC' and AKC does not care whether a breeder breeds to the standard or not.. they are a registry, nothing more. 

I looked at Pope's OFA page again today, it was easy to find. She has out of date eyes and failed hips.
That she was bred from ever is quite telling as to the ethics of the breeder, as in, doesn't have the breed at heart. 
She is a good example of a bitch one should not breed- not only did she not pass her own clearances, but comes from generations of non-clearanced animals. 
When a breeder does not list their breeding animals on their site, it makes any due diligence research difficult... then one sees puppies and loses their heart forgetting safety. Because they do not list their animals on their site, the ones in the earlier part of the thread are the ones I could see today. Of the ones on K9data with them as owners, 
Ivy has ZERO clearances, Pope is lacking in date eye exams and hip clearance, Pius has a cardiac clearance and out of date eyes, no hip or elbow, Nala has out of date eyes and likely failed elbows, Lumi has out of date eyes, Jessie has no clearances, Gracie is lacking passing elbows, eyes and heart, Cupcake has no clearances (and for that matter, they apparently don't know her dam's name re:k9data), Bigfoot has no clearances, Crane's eyes are out of date by years, Jewel has no clearances, Ashsoka has no eye clearance, and Max has apparently failed elbows, no heart or eye clearance. SO- as you can see, not even one dog on their list of dogs on k9data has the very minimal 4 core clearances for breeding animals. Not one. And all of these have been bred from. I find that shameful.
I do not see the training contract online anymore. But do see that they admin 3 doses of Drontal to their litters prior to release at 7 weeks. The product label says it is unsafe for puppies under 3 weeks of age. Deworming is most advisedly done at 2,4,6 and 8 weeks when puppy usually leaves the breeder and again at 12 and 16 weeks. Most breeders and veterinarians use pyrantel pamoate for puppy deworms. Praziquantel (Drontal) is useful if one has a heavy flea infestation, since fleas are the route most dogs get tapeworms from... and really, it's the only reason to use it. There are far safer deworming products unless one has tapeworms. Which one gets from fleas.


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## dmitripr

Hi! I realize it's an old thread, but I found it on Google after being in contact with this Breeder over the last couple of days. They have a puppy available, and I've asked for their Dog's registration number so I can look up the parents in OFA. 

Someone mentioned to me that it's possible that the parents have all the current clearances, but those records are not public on OFA or K9 and the breeder can provide them via a photo or a scan. Is this possible? Do absolutely all clearances performed by veterinarians get entered into OFA or some clearances can be kept private?

In case the Breeder sends copies of clearances, is there a way to verify the authenticity? Thanks!


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## K9-Design

dmitripr said:


> Hi! I realize it's an old thread, but I found it on Google after being in contact with this Breeder over the last couple of days. They have a puppy available, and I've asked for their Dog's registration number so I can look up the parents in OFA.
> 
> Someone mentioned to me that it's possible that the parents have all the current clearances, but those records are not public on OFA or K9 and the breeder can provide them via a photo or a scan. Is this possible? Do absolutely all clearances performed by veterinarians get entered into OFA or some clearances can be kept private?
> 
> In case the Breeder sends copies of clearances, is there a way to verify the authenticity? Thanks!


Hi! 

PASSING OFA Hip and Elbow results will ALWAYS be available publicly on the OFA website. If they do not have hips and elbows on the OFA website, they either did not do them or the dog failed these exams.

Heart and eye clearances may be completed and "passed" but not listed on OFA. It is up to the dog's owner to send in examination results for eyes and hearts to OFA for OFA to list them in the database. So in the case of hearts and eyes ONLY may the breeder possess exam results that are passing but not listed on OFA. Having said that, it is a very nominal fee (less than $20) to send in these results and have them listed on OFA, and there is heavy peer pressure to do just that. It is irresponsible for breeders NOT to send the results into OFA.


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## Emmdenn

For hips & elbows, yes. If they are not on OFA they do not exist or the dog failed and the breeder did not want failing results publicized. This is because you have to send in x-rays to OFA to get them read and scored. There is no other database for hip and elbow clearances. The breeder should also be able to send you copies of the actual paper clearances as well if they are done. 

With eyes and hearts, you have to send in the paperwork to OFA, and then OFA will issue a clearance # when they receive them, to add them to the database. It is possible that dogs have heart & eyes that are not in the database because they haven't been sent in. You can now send in eye results online, which is quick and easy. There really is no reason not to send these in.

If you ask the breeder for proof of clearances and they say "we will send copies home with each puppy when you pick them up" or talk around sending them to you via email....that would send off a red flag to me that they are being deceptive about something and probably have something to hide or the clearances are not done. Sadly, many of us have learned the hard way that there are less than reputable breeders who breed for profit and are not honest or ethical. Unfortunate but true.


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## dmitripr

Thanks for the info, great to know!

Maybe someone here can help with search of the OFA. I've done the search and get many results back, maybe there is a trick to this. The breeder mentioned that the parents are Stanley and Fiona.


Thanks again!


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## LJack

If they say they have OFA certifications, it would have to be on OFA.org. Some try to present OFA preliminary reports as certifications but they are not. Also eye certifications will be on OFA. Some will present the exam form as a “clearance”. The issue is that those forms if not submitted to OFA can be altered or forged and I have seen that happen. Considering it costs less than a nice lunch to get them posted, there is not much legitimate reason to not do it. Heart exams are similar to eyes but are even harder to verify because for Goldens a Cardiologist should be testing and that is impossible for the average person to see on the exam form. It should be on OFA.org so you can see if they cheaped out with the riskier Practitioner version or did the right thing and had a Cardiologist complete the testing. 

Considering the history shown in this thread of documented lacking certifications and falsehoods, if it is not on OFA it would be safest to assume there is no test or possibly a failure.

If you post the potential parents registration names, someone here will let you know what is there and what is not.


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## LJack

dmitripr said:


> The breeder mentioned that the parents are Stanley and Fiona:
> 
> 
> Thanks again!


The hiding of registration names like this is a trick commonly used by breeder who don’t have certifications since it is impossible to search OFA with out the registration names or numbers.


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## LJack

Neither parent has health certifications at all.
I tracked them down.
Stanley - Pedigree: Stanley Justbehaving
Old enough to have certifications but doesn’t

Fiona - Pedigree: Fiona Roach
Not even 2 years old yet. Bred underage and literally can‘t have hip or elbow certifications since those can only be done after 24 months of age.

It also looks like there are over 20 dogs listed for them on K9Data. This along with everything else seems to indicate this is a source of income business that puts profit goals over health or quality goals.


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## dmitripr

LJack said:


> Neither parent has health certifications at all.
> I tracked them down.
> Stanley - Pedigree: Stanley Justbehaving
> Old enough to have certifications but doesn’t
> 
> Fiona - Pedigree: Fiona Roach
> Not even 2 years old yet. Bred underage and literally can‘t have hip or elbow certifications since those can only be done after 24 months of age.
> 
> It also looks like there are over 20 dogs listed for them on K9Data. This along with everything else seems to indicate this is a source of income business that puts profit goals over health or quality goals.


Well done. I've not tried to search on K9. Thanks for all the help!

What are the primary risks associated with acquiring pups from breeders like this (besides, obviously, promoting these questionable practices)? Is that a good indicator or a guarantee that the pup will have health issues later on? Is there any other way to evaluate the pedigree by looking at the parents of the parents, for example?


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## Emmdenn

Aside from directly keeping irresponsible and unethical breeders in business.....

You are looking at a potential life of health issues and pain for a puppy. Goldens are prone to painful eye diseases than can lead to blindness. Hip and elbow dysplasia which can be extremely debilitating and cost thousands and thousands of dollars for joint replacements. Goldens can be affected with ichthyosis which is a skin disease that creates excess dandruff than can be a real pain in the neck to control, as well as potential associated GI and other skin issues. Goldens should be tested to NCL ( a devastating neurological condition) and cardiac problems which can lead to sudden death at a very young age.

Reputable breeders spend YEARS making informed breeding choices with years of health clearances so they know what they are producing and which health concerns they have eliminated.

You have no idea what you are getting health or temperament wise by buying from untested/uncleared parents.


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## Animal321

Sally's Mom said:


> Dallas, the mother of one of the litters will be two 9/11. So that means not only is she a mother before two, but can't have final OFA's. RED FLAG!!! No registered names. RED FLAG!!! Like everyone else, I find them on next day pets. RED FLAG!!! And $1750 for a pup with parents with no apparent titles and possibly no close ancestors with titles? RED FLAG!!!
> In NH, try: Profile, Sunkissed, or Watersedge(Bow,NH)... Shalva, a member here is from NH and could maybe help. In Maine, try Tashel or Tairis... Contact Yankee Golden Retriever Club for referrals. There are many resources available.


Got a pup from there 20 years ago and loved it 
Go one 10 years ago and love her 
Got two this year best ever well adjusted and beautiful pups no Health problems with any 
Over 20 years so proof is in the pudding


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## Animal321

K9-Design said:


> Hi!
> 
> PASSING OFA Hip and Elbow results will ALWAYS be available publicly on the OFA website. If they do not have hips and elbows on the OFA website, they either did not do them or the dog failed these exams.
> 
> Heart and eye clearances may be completed and "passed" but not listed on OFA. It is up to the dog's owner to send in examination results for eyes and hearts to OFA for OFA to list them in the database. So in the case of hearts and eyes ONLY may the breeder possess exam results that are passing but not listed on OFA. Having said that, it is a very nominal fee (less than $20) to send in these results and have them listed on OFA, and there is heavy peer pressure to do just that. It is irresponsible for breeders NOT to send the results into OFA.


I got 4 puppies from the over the past 30 years ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEMS puppies are well adjusted clean and beautiful 
I love having the ability to shop local for a puppy This modern shipment idea is not for me and arouses a huge red flag For some to ship a puppy on a plane like it is a pillow


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## Prism Goldens

Shipping a puppy is not the only choice- obviously- and the reality is, this is the sort of breeder who will never comply with best practices. It's easy enough to get on a plane to anywhere in the country and come back w your pup under the seat in a sherpa bag... I agree with you on the shipping of puppies in cargo. 
I'm glad you have enjoyed your puppies. However, given the lack of health clearances on parents and apparent use (according to their site) of dewormer unsafe for young puppies, you have been lucky.


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## Maggie'sVoice

Funny how time files. In one post it was 20 years of puppies and 4 min later it was 30 years of puppies.

I wish time would fly like that for me in this lockdown 😂


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## Emmdenn

Here is the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics, which clearly outlines what a breeder must do to be considered ethical and responsible.






GRCA Code of Ethics - Golden Retriever Club of America







www.grca.org





You'll see that this breeder does not do the bare minimum of health testing, and breeds dogs underaged, therefor does not comply with the code of ethics, and cannot be considered reputable. You are fortunate to not have any major issues with your dogs.


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## Animal321

Florabora said:


> I agree!!  And I pity the poor dogs that have to go through that kind of training.


I love that place they have the best dogs ever I would advice you to run to them


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## goldenpup613

Sally's Mom said:


> Dallas, the mother of one of the litters will be two 9/11. So that means not only is she a mother before two, but can't have final OFA's. RED FLAG!!! No registered names. RED FLAG!!! Like everyone else, I find them on next day pets. RED FLAG!!! And $1750 for a pup with parents with no apparent titles and possibly no close ancestors with titles? RED FLAG!!!
> In NH, try: Profile, Sunkissed, or Watersedge(Bow,NH)... Shalva, a member here is from NH and could maybe help. In Maine, try Tashel or Tairis... Contact Yankee Golden Retriever Club for referrals. There are many resources available.



This is a really old post, but i just stumbled upon it. I had one of Dalla's puppies born in December of 2010. I had registered names for Dallas, and Jessie, the stud. AND my little girl just passed last month from Lymphoma. No issues otherwise.


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## Prism Goldens

goldenpup613 said:


> This is a really old post, but i just stumbled upon it. I had one of Dalla's puppies born in December of 2010. I had registered names for Dallas, and Jessie, the stud. AND my little girl just passed last month from Lymphoma. No issues otherwise.


What Sally's Mom is saying- and anyone on here who understands what shortcuts are being taken by less-than good breeders would say- is that while you did get their registered names, when you bought a puppy from them, the reg names should be on the website so the buyer can verify health clearances/titles/pedigree... when a breeder doesn't do that they know full well they are depriving the buyer of information and hiding the flaws in their program from shoppers.


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## LWG

oggi said:


> Just Behaving Goldens in Rowley, MA...Heidi Harris and Dan Roach. Anyone know anything, good or bad, about them in terms of breeders?


I know this post is super old but was updated in 2020. Wanted to share that I got a puppy from here in December 2021 and she presented with skin conditions immediately, her stomach was black and leathery and she had lots of dandruff. When I first discussed it with Dan before 3 weeks had gone by, he immediately knew it was Ichthyosis. He wanted a skin biopsy right away in order to honor his “guarantee” my vet was uncomfortable sedating her until other less invasive options like antibiotics, Revolution, medicated wipes and shampoos were exhausted, especially since he claimed he has only had 4 cases of ichthyosis in over 1600 dogs he’s bred and all the cases developed when the dogs were older (?) Finally end of February she has the biopsy and ichtyosis is confirmed. Dan agreed to refund us -but no then I had to constantly pester him to actually send us a check (even though we had to venmo him to get the dog!) finally get my $3250 back but he with holds the sales tax of $203. Now I have to listen to a grown man tell lies (the checks in the mail, I thought I already mailed it, you can come by to pick it up? I just put it in the mailbox and the mail carrier just came 🙄) I have paid out close to $2000 treating her, including the biopsy. he could at least honor his guarantee and refund my money. 
My dogs parents are listed as Big Red and Darla. FWIW I’d avoid them. A health guarantee only works if you actually refund the money.


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## Prism Goldens

a biopsy is overkill. A simple cheek swab DNA test will do that for him to honor his 'warranty'.


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## judomaster

oggi said:


> Just Behaving Goldens in Rowley, MA...Heidi Harris and Dan Roach. Anyone know anything, good or bad, about them in terms of breeders?


This breeder does extensive research on their dog's genetics and purchases breeding stock from other reputable dog breeders and is also akc certified. The training she does is made for puppies and doesn't utilize food training because she trains puppies. We once went over to her with our dog we bought from her, and she whistled, and our dog came pelting over like you've never seen, since he still remembered her from when he was a puppy. The reason she mentions that the dog is in a potentially unsafe environment is because the document that you are signing is a waiver. The dogs live on a ranch and will run around with other dogs, and they're fed raw meat and they're coats are all glossy from the nutrients and oils in their raw diet. Her dogs also generally do not have hip problems which is common in over bred dogs like golden retrievers. Not exactly breeding tucker budzyn but her dogs are great.


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## LJack

judomaster said:


> This breeder does extensive research on their dog's genetics and purchases breeding stock from other reputable dog breeders and is also akc certified. The training she does is made for puppies and doesn't utilize food training because she trains puppies. We once went over to her with our dog we bought from her, and she whistled, and our dog came pelting over like you've never seen, since he still remembered her from when he was a puppy. The reason she mentions that the dog is in a potentially unsafe environment is because the document that you are signing is a waiver. The dogs live on a ranch and will run around with other dogs, and they're fed raw meat and they're coats are all glossy from the nutrients and oils in their raw diet. Her dogs also generally do not have hip problems which is common in over bred dogs like golden retrievers. Not exactly breeding tucker budzyn but her dogs are great.


Care to share the registration names or numbers that would back these claims?


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## judomaster

LJack said:


> Care to share the registration names or numbers that would back these claims?



Unless they're lying it's advertised on their Facebook page. Also, I'm assuming their breeding stock is proprietary information since the breeder personally developed her own line.


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## Tagrenine

Their dogs are developed from puppy mill/byb lines. Not proprietary, not hand developed. Some of the older dogs go back to some show dogs, but there was no effort by the breeders maintain that caliber of dog



Pedigree: Big Red Roach





Pedigree: Stanley Justbehaving





Pedigree: Teegan Roach





Pedigree: Fiona Roach


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## Prism Goldens

judomaster said:


> Unless they're lying it's advertised on their Facebook page. Also, I'm assuming their breeding stock is proprietary information since the breeder personally developed her own line.


There are NO proprietary lines- pedigrees are not secrets- and this particular one isn't even using safe lines. They're literally unregistered dogs (see parentage on Big Red Roach).


judomaster said:


> This breeder does extensive research on their dog's genetics and purchases breeding stock from other reputable dog breeders and is also akc certified. The training she does is made for puppies and doesn't utilize food training because she trains puppies. We once went over to her with our dog we bought from her, and she whistled, and our dog came pelting over like you've never seen, since he still remembered her from when he was a puppy. The reason she mentions that the dog is in a potentially unsafe environment is because the document that you are signing is a waiver. The dogs live on a ranch and will run around with other dogs, and they're fed raw meat and they're coats are all glossy from the nutrients and oils in their raw diet. Her dogs also generally do not have hip problems which is common in over bred dogs like golden retrievers. Not exactly breeding tucker budzyn but her dogs are great.


and what you're actually saying here is you don't understand Golden Retrievers at all. The breeding stock did not come from any reputable breeders, and without actually having hips and elbows done any program would appear fine since there is no risk of publishing fails due to the lack of even checking. What is being asked of you is this: what are the registered names of your animal's sire and dam? BTW- Tucker Budzyn is hardly a correct Golden. He's way overdone and is the produce of a media campaign, nothing more.


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## LJack

judomaster said:


> Unless they're lying it's advertised on their Facebook page. Also, I'm assuming their breeding stock is proprietary information since the breeder personally developed her own line.


So am I understanding you correctly that you bought a dog from this breeder and you have no idea about its parentage?

And to repeat the sentiments of others, pedigrees are not and can not be proprietary by their nature. In the same way anyone can do a genealogy for you but even easier because real pedigrees (not random unregistered dogs of dubious background) are tracked and maintained more than human records.


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