# Stacking help, please!



## FinnTheFloof

I'm training my 5 month old on Wednesday golden puppy, Finn, to compete in Junior Handling. 
Here's today's stack:








He's currently on a Rescoe so that we can both learn to use a show lead without me accidentally choking him. Once he's fully ring trained, I"ll get a proper lead.
What do I need to fix?


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## FinnTheFloof

He looks super weird because he doesn't have his coat yet, but that's a growing issue. I'm pretty proud of this stack, but overall, I've had a bit of trouble placing his back legs- do they look good?
Even if his quality isn't the best (I suspect that he will not end up close to standard at all) I'd like his stacking to be really good as I'm showing him in juniors, so my stacking skills will be under scrutiny.
Artistic rendition of Finn with a coat:


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## Tagrenine

Hi Finn! He’s cute.
Try to get his front legs and his hocks perpendicular to the ground and then ask him to lean forward. I usually gently tug on the tail to encourage this. In this image he’s posting and bracing back. It’s a great job for your first stack though!


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> Hi Finn! He’s cute.


Thank you!


Tagrenine said:


> Try to get his front legs and his hocks perpendicular to the ground and then ask him to lean forward. I usually gently tug on the tail to encourage this. In this image he’s posting and bracing back. It’s a great job for your first stack though!


Great! I'll try it tomorrow.
It's not my first stack, but it's the first one that I thought merited posting here : P


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## FinnTheFloof

Do you think that that could help solve the issue that I'm having with his hocks? They're leaning inward and the only way that I've found (spent like 5 minutes just placing his back legs different ways) to get them to be nice and straight is to have them super close together.








(he had moved a bit for this pic which is why his legs are off)
Do you think that this could be caused by the posting/bracing, or just growing, or am I placing his legs wrong altogether?


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## FinnTheFloof

Unrelated but am I holding his tail properly?
I was told by the teacher of my breed handling class that I'm supposed to hold it like that so it comes smoothly off his croup, but I was told by a friend in the local kennel club who's helping me with him that the teacher lady is crazy and isn't good with sporting dogs because she shows cavaliers, so I'm not sure how much to listen to her XD
When I look at pictures online the tail is usually held higher?


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## Tagrenine

https://grca.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/II.F.6_-_FinalGRCAStudyGuide20151.pdf



I’m not sure if you’ve gotten the chance to read the illustrated standard but it is a great place to start.
As far as his hocks, how does he stand when relaxed, do they still turn in?


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> https://grca.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/II.F.6_-_FinalGRCAStudyGuide20151.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I’m not sure if you’ve gotten the chance to read the illustrated standard but it is a great place to start.
> As far as his hocks, how does he stand when relaxed, do they still turn in?


I will look- I haven't noticed, but I don't think that they do.


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## FinnTheFloof

Thank you for that link!!
Is this what I'm going for?








I saw this picture and immediately went 'oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!'


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## Tagrenine

Yeah that’s a great example!


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## FinnTheFloof

Should I be holding his tail that high, or higher than I am?


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## FinnTheFloof

Is it ok to add a question about free stacking here?
Sorry to overload with so many questions
but I'm struggling HARd with free stacks- I just can't get him to stand in the right way. The only time that we did it in class, the only other dog there was perfect at it and it was near the end so Finn wasn't focused at all. Is there a good video that could show me how to do it?


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## Megora

FinnTheFloof said:


> Is it ok to add a question about free stacking here?
> Sorry to overload with so many questions
> but I'm struggling HARd with free stacks- I just can't get him to stand in the right way. The only time that we did it in class, the only other dog there was perfect at it and it was near the end so Finn wasn't focused at all. Is there a good video that could show me how to do it?








Before you do free stacks with your pup, he needs to know where to put his feet. 

He gets that through muscle memory + it helps if your pup is balanced (structure). 

Your pup is not balanced... he's very long in the rear + long hocks compared to the front. That will make him a little more gangly and awkward right now. <- I say keep training, but don't get down trying to compare your dog to somebody else's. 

I would say do not worry about the tail, however I am not sure what they require in juniors.


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## Prism Goldens

FinnTheFloof said:


> I'm training my 5 month old on Wednesday golden puppy, Finn, to compete in Junior Handling.
> Here's today's stack:
> View attachment 883865
> 
> He's currently on a Rescoe so that we can both learn to use a show lead without me accidentally choking him. Once he's fully ring trained, I"ll get a proper lead.
> What do I need to fix?


I think the tail is fine- his rear is spread too far apart, though and his front legs need to be back some, he's posting.


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## ArkansasGold

Get on the Blue Rose You Tube channel and watch Amy’s videos.


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## FinnTheFloof

Megora said:


> Before you do free stacks with your pup, he needs to know where to put his feet.
> 
> He gets that through muscle memory + it helps if your pup is balanced (structure).
> 
> Your pup is not balanced... he's very long in the rear + long hocks compared to the front. That will make him a little more gangly and awkward right now. <- I say keep training, but don't get down trying to compare your dog to somebody else's.
> 
> I would say do not worry about the tail, however I am not sure what they require in juniors.


I'm hoping that he'll grow out of that.

I'm worried about doing the tail because I need to do everything right for juniors so I'm overthinking a lot of stuff 😅


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## DanaRuns

I think it's _awesome_ that you're doing this. Go for it. It takes a lot of practice. It can be hard. But if it wasn't hard, anyone could do it. Keep up the good work.

My first observation is that a "perfect" dog is easier to learn with than a regular dog. Finn's a regular dog. And he's 5 months old, which is absolutely the most awkward age for a Golden. So don't expect to rock it right away with Finn. Just work on your technique and don't worry about the overall picture. As Finn comes into his body and as your skills grow, it will get much easier.

A few general thoughts:

The biggest rule I ever learned for stacking is, "Control the head, control the dog." The first thing you want to do is get the dog's head where you want it. Then, holding his head rock steady (you can actually drop the lead and hold his head with your hand, at the rear jaw on the non-show side), the way I was taught was to put each leg in position in an 8-count rhythm, starting with his front show-side leg, other front leg, rear show-side leg, and other rear leg. Don't futz with it. Put each foot down one time and leave it there, and the whole thing should take no more than 8 seconds. The more you mess with it, the harder it becomes for your dog to hold the position. And if you hold Finn's head rock steady in the right place, it makes getting his feet under him correctly so much easier, and he won't fight you like it looks like he is in your photo. It will feel right to him, and he'll be much easier to stack and control. And remember, Finn is learning along with you. It will get easier for both of you.

Also, amateur secret here, walking him into a stack before setting the head can do 90% of the work for you. Dogs naturally stand balanced, and that's what you want. So walking him into a stack starts you off in almost the right place, and then all you do is tweak it.

I don't know what's required for juniors, but most handlers don't "top and tail" their Goldens, they let the tail fall naturally. But, it looks dramatic, so if you're going to do it, you should grab the tail a little closer to the tip. It should come straight off the rear and up just a tiny bit, but not up to the level of his head. Hold it in the position of an ideal gaiting carriage. You're doing pretty well in your photo, but at 5 months his tail is just too long and will be hard to work with. He needs to grow into his body for you to get a good look on him.

The tip Tangerine gave you about pulling on the tail to get the dog to lean forward is a good one. He will resist the pull and lean forward. But I still return to controlling the head. If you have his head in the right place he won't resist, and actually can't post.

You don't want his rear legs very far apart. They should come down naturally, which will also help the angle. Some pro handlers will spread the rear legs a bit wider in order to hide a structural flaw, but that's not ideal, so don't copy that even if it looks dramatic. It's incorrect. His feet should be squarely under him in a balanced manner, rear feet hip width apart, with the rear hocks perpendicular to the ground. Ideally, if his structure is right, when you have him that way you'll be able to draw a straight vertical line down from the base of his tail to the tips of his toes. But Finn is a little straight in the rear, so you might not get that perfect picture with him. Concentrate and getting the hocks straight up and down (pretty good job in your pic) and his feet under him in a natural and balanced stance, not so wide, and don't worry about the rest.

Carry on. You're off to a great start.


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## FinnTheFloof

Thank you so much for all of the help! Unfortunately, I can’t work on any of this until August, as I’m away at camp for the summer. However, a few things- his structure is going to be wacky even when he matures fully, due to poor breeding (long story). I’m not even sure if he’ll get a full coat, let alone nice proportions.I tried some of these tips (gently tugging the tail, holding the head instead of the lead) but I think that I’m not doing things properly, because it just made the process more difficult and he looked really awkward in all of the pictures, lol. I can see the difference while doing it with him (shifting forward with the encouragement from his face and tail) but in pictures it just looks like I set him up badly.
In general, I’ve been kneeling to close to him (I know that for adult goldens you don’t kneel, but he’s just so short right now, only like 17 inches, that I can’t set his legs properly while standing) and he’s been leaning on me a bit, so I’ve been trying to correct that by shifting further away, which has helped a bit.


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## FinnTheFloof

Hello again! I'm back from camp with new photos. There's a bit of a hill, so his back legs are a bit higher than his front legs, sorry about that.








^^^In this one, I can tell that he's posting back








In this one, I think that he's posting less, but is still posting?? (note: I'm not squeezing his mouth open, he was eating a treat)
In the second one, I was trying the tugging on the tail thing, and I think that it was somewhat successful. I was also holding his head, but I'm not sure how to hold it in a way that prevents him from posting. I think that his head looks more natural in the first one because I'm not tipping his chin up, but I'm not sure which is more correct.
In both, I think that his legs should be a touch farther back, to line up his toes with the base of his tail.

Does my assessment sound right?
How do I fix the issues?
Thank you for any help!


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## Tagrenine

Hi! When I had my biggest issue with posting I realized that standing in front of my dog (versus on the side) and luring his body forward with a treat helped a lot.


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> Hi! When I had my biggest issue with posting I realized that standing in front of my dog (versus on the side) and luring his body forward with a treat helped a lot.


I can try that. Currently I'm using one hand with a treat in front of him and it keeps his focus and gets him to look where I want, but doesn't cause him to stop posting.
Do you have an issue placing his legs if you stand in front, or do you move in front after you set his legs up?


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## Tagrenine

FinnTheFloof said:


> I can try that. Currently I'm using one hand with a treat in front of him and it keeps his focus and gets him to look where I want, but doesn't cause him to stop posting.
> Do you have an issue placing his legs if you stand in front, or do you move in front after you set his legs up?


I find that sometimes he walks into the stack itself well but most of the time I set up his legs and then walk up front. He doesn’t usually move and if he does I just reset him  I try not to do more than 3 minutes, especially if I’m getting frustrated because then it doesn’t become fun for either of us lol


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## FinnTheFloof

I took a video of myself stacking him to see where the issue is, and I've discovered that the posting issue starts when I set his back legs. His front legs are fine, but when I set his back legs, he starts posting. I tried luring him forward with a treat but it didn't work. Am I setting his back legs too far back?
Front legs set, no back legs set:








Back legs set:








(I was tugging on his tail a bit here as well, to try to get him to lean forward)
With encouragement to lean forward:








Are his back legs just waay too far back?


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## Tagrenine

Can you post the video?


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> Can you post the video?


I'm sorry, it has my face and voice in it, so I'd rather not. I can get screenshots of any point that you'd like, though.


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## FinnTheFloof

I originally had his back legs set here:








But then moved them back again. Looking now, I think that this one was better?


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## Tagrenine

No problem  you’re placing the legs too far back. He may feel uncomfortable and posts to compensate. I would start with one leg and whatever reward you gave for training him to stand still, reward when you place one leg correctly and he doesn’t post. Do it until on the video you can see that the leg is set properly and his front legs are appropriately underneath him.


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> No problem  you’re placing the legs too far back. He may feel uncomfortable and posts to compensate. I would start with one leg and whatever reward you gave for training him to stand still, reward when you place one leg correctly and he doesn’t post. Do it until on the video you can see that the leg is set properly and his front legs are appropriately underneath him.


Will do!


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## ArkansasGold

His rear pasterns need to be vertical. I think since he’s a bit leggy, his toes might not fall right under his butt bones while simultaneously having straight rear pasterns (hocks). If you get his rear set properly and he’s still A-framing, you can poke him under the belly and he’ll lift himself up instead of sinking.

Also, you don’t have to hold his tail. And I actually wouldn’t because he has a fairly steep croup and holding his tail up will accentuate that. Holding the tail can also make the A-framing worse. My girl HATES when I hold her tail. 

Juniors is about showmanship, yes? You need to present this dog how a professional would - accentuating his assets and hiding his faults as best you can. But mostly, showmanship is about confidence. Present him to the judge like he’s a magic trick. Like “ta-da! Here is my magical dog! Look at him and fall under his spell!”


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## FinnTheFloof

ArkansasGold said:


> His rear pasterns need to be vertical. I think since he’s a bit leggy, his toes might not fall right under his butt bones while simultaneously having straight rear pasterns (hocks). If you get his rear set properly


So is 'properly' in this case going for vertical pasterns instead of toes lined up with his butt?


ArkansasGold said:


> His rear pasterns need to be vertical. I think since he’s a bit leggy, his toes might not fall right under his butt bones while simultaneously having straight rear pasterns (hocks). If you get his rear set properly and he’s still A-framing, you can poke him under the belly and he’ll lift himself up instead of sinking.


A framing is what he's doing in the second and third pictures, right?


ArkansasGold said:


> Also, you don’t have to hold his tail. And I actually wouldn’t because he has a fairly steep croup and holding his tail up will accentuate that. Holding the tail can also make the A-framing worse. My girl HATES when I hold her tail.


I've been holding his tail because I want him to get used to it so that if I were to have to do it in a show, he wouldn't be all fidgety and uncomfortable. I can definitely stop, though.


ArkansasGold said:


> Juniors is about showmanship, yes? You need to present this dog how a professional would - accentuating his assets and hiding his faults as best you can.


Yep! The issue is he has so many faults 😅 I've also been told that he's straight in the shoulder, and I know that he has long pasterns. I'm hoping that when he finishes growing he'll be a bit more proportionate in general, but who knows how he's going to turn out.


ArkansasGold said:


> But mostly, showmanship is about confidence. Present him to the judge like he’s a magic trick. Like “ta-da! Here is my magical dog! Look at him and fall under his spell!”


I love that analogy! Will do!


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## ArkansasGold

FinnTheFloof said:


> So is 'properly' in this case going for vertical pasterns instead of toes lined up with his butt?


Yes. 


FinnTheFloof said:


> A framing is what he's doing in the second and third pictures, right?


The second one in particular and the last one that is in a post by itself.


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## FinnTheFloof

ArkansasGold said:


> Yes.
> 
> The second one in particular and the last one that is in a post by itself.


Thank you!


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## ArkansasGold

FinnTheFloof said:


> Thank you!


You’re welcome! 😊


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## FinnTheFloof

Someone else just suggested that by overstretching his back legs, I may have inadvertently trained him to post- do you guys also think that that may be true?


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## LJack

Yes, you are building his muscle memory. So, if you consistently place him in an A frame, his body will remember and that will be his “go to” position. I accidentally did this with my first show dog and it took time to train it out with better muscle memory.


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## FinnTheFloof

What if I set up his back legs properly but he's still A-framing? Should I reset his front legs?


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## LJack

Yes, you could. The best thing I did for that girl (to retrain) was stack her in front of a mirror or building with reflective glass and I taught her to hold as I threw food in front of her that after an a period of alert, rocked forward time I released her to go gobble up. She was older and further in her obedience training when I did the whole throw training but it was a tool I used. Right now I think the mirror is likely what you need.


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## Megora

Mirrors are a huge must need. 

Otherwise, set up your tablet or camera to video and view videos after "training" sessions. 

The way my brain works - mirror is necessary for on the spot fixes while training the pups.

Video is great when you are showing or getting ready for a show and kinda "testing" yourself. It gets you away from cheating like you would a with a mirror (looking at the mirror to set up vs relying on what you see looking down at your dog).


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## FinnTheFloof

No mirror (I’m working on it) but better?








(He moved his left hind leg, I didn’t set it really wide)


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## ArkansasGold

FinnTheFloof said:


> No mirror (I’m working on it) but better?
> View attachment 885141
> 
> (He moved his left hind leg, I didn’t set it really wide)


Rear is better. Still posting a little in the front though. Definite improvement though! Keep working and you’ll get it. Stacking is the thing I struggle with most, so I feel your pain!


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## K9-Design

Much better. Just adjust his front legs back an inch after you set the back legs. I end up setting front legs twice on every hand stack. Leave the tail alone. Every judge knows a golden retriever has a tail.


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## FinnTheFloof

better?


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## DanaRuns

When I was learning from a pro handler, I remember one thing I was told that stood out above pretty much everything else. It was this principle: Control the head, control the dog. Which means that if you make sure to control the dog's head, then everything else becomes easy to control.

Of course, controlling the head isn't easy. It takes practice. But you do it by putting the dog's head exactly where you want it, and then holding it right there without moving it, as you then futz with the dog's feet. You can control the position of the head either by holding his collar or, if the dog is squirmy, by holding the dog's lower jaw on the non-show side so that he can't move his head.

Once you do that, you can put all four of his feet where you want them, and you'll have a great stack. He won't easily be able to move them, and he for sure won't be able to post because that's a function of head position as related to front feet, and you're controlling where that head is.

This handler was pretty demanding in her teaching. She would only give me 8 seconds to stack my dog, and I could only move each foot once. Learning to hold the head perfectly still while I moved the feet was the only way I could do it in 8 seconds.

So, FWIW (probably not much), that would be my suggestion.

Has anyone else heard this principle?


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## FinnTheFloof

DanaRuns said:


> When I was learning from a pro handler, I remember one thing I was told that stood out above pretty much everything else. It was this principle: Control the head, control the dog. Which means that if you make sure to control the dog's head, then everything else becomes easy to control.
> 
> Of course, controlling the head isn't easy. It takes practice. But you do it by putting the dog's head exactly where you want it, and then holding it right there without moving it, as you then futz with the dog's feet. You can control the position of the head either by holding his collar or, if the dog is squirmy, by holding the dog's lower jaw on the non-show side so that he can't move his head.
> 
> Once you do that, you can put all four of his feet where you want them, and you'll have a great stack. He won't easily be able to move them, and he for sure won't be able to post because that's a function of head position as related to front feet, and you're controlling where that head is.
> 
> This handler was pretty demanding in her teaching. She would only give me 8 seconds to stack my dog, and I could only move each foot once. Learning to hold the head perfectly still while I moved the feet was the only way I could do it in 8 seconds.
> 
> So, FWIW (probably not much), that would be my suggestion.
> 
> Has anyone else heard this principle?


I’ve been trying to hold my hand very steady when stacking him (you mentioned this concept on the first page and I’ve tried to work on it) but I find that I struggle with keeping my arm that’s holding his head still, as well as switching hands smoothly. Should I just keep practicing?


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## Megora

FinnTheFloof said:


> I’ve been trying to hold my hand very steady when stacking him (you mentioned this concept on the first page and I’ve tried to work on it) but I find that I struggle with keeping my arm that’s holding his head still, as well as switching hands smoothly. Should I just keep practicing?


Keep practicing + teach your dog to STAY.


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## FinnTheFloof

am I correct that he’s still posting a bit here?
Also, to get your dog to look down, do you bait down a lot and it’s habit?


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## K9-Design

Much better! LEAVE THE TAIL ALONE!!!! Hold the collar with your left hand and bait forward with your right hand.


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## FinnTheFloof

K9-Design said:


> Much better! LEAVE THE TAIL ALONE!!!! Hold the collar with your left hand and bait forward with your right hand.


Thank you!
My hand was there because I had been gently tugging on the tail as suggested to get him to lean forward.
Will do.


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## FinnTheFloof

I've started doing a bit of the thing with him where you stack him with his back feet on the edge of a curb, so that he can't lean back. I'd do that today but SOMEONE spilled orange juice on my treat bag (I'm very unhappy about this)


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## Prism Goldens

FinnTheFloof said:


> View attachment 885250
> 
> am I correct that he’s still posting a bit here?
> Also, to get your dog to look down, do you bait down a lot and it’s habit?


That one is much better. But we can all tell you had your hand back @the tail lol! Leave that alone- it is one of his least correct parts, the tail set/croup are just not good but no need to draw attention to how 'not good' they are. Use your left hand to keep his head where you want it, and your right hand to move his inside feet, your left to move outside feet and then right back to head holding. Once he's got his feet where you want them say STAY and lure that head down a little- you don't want his head to give his neck an incorrect appearance or to cause his front feet to be in wrong position.


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## K9-Design

Quit pulling on his tail. Most newbies do this incorrectly and make their dogs worse.


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## FinnTheFloof

K9-Design said:


> Quit pulling on his tail. Most newbies do this incorrectly and make their dogs worse.


Ok!


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## FinnTheFloof

I'm going to a handling class tonight, so I can ask for some help.


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## FinnTheFloof

FinnTheFloof said:


> I'm going to a handling class tonight, so I can ask for some help.


This will also be a good test for him- he does great with everything (stacking,gaiting, etc) (all stacking issues are my fault) at home, but we haven’t been able to practice with other dogs for a long time. I’m hoping that he does ok, so that I can start getting some experience with him in the ring like next month. Even if it goes horribly, it’s still practice.


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## FinnTheFloof

Still working. 
stack 1:








stack 2:


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## Tagrenine

FinnTheFloof said:


> Still working.
> stack 1:
> View attachment 885511
> 
> stack 2:
> View attachment 885512


Much better!!!


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## FinnTheFloof

Is the first stack passable or is he still back a significant amount?


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## Prism Goldens

if his head were lowered a bit, bet he'd look more passable.
I know- it probably feels like we're all giving you tidbits and you're trying to remember them all, but if you'd study correct head placement for instance, and imprint that on what you see when you stack him, then you'd be able to use that mental photo with ANY dog you stack. Since we've been using Geode, here's a recent pic of him- if you notice, his head is tipped down more than Finn's.


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## FinnTheFloof

Is there a way to get his head down other than baiting him to look that way, and it becoming habit for him?


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## Prism Goldens

some of it is muscle memory- I vote to do whatever it takes to get head there when he is stacked, treats or turning the collar to side and tug down a bit, or whatever- and keep aiming for head to be where it should, til he auto puts it there. Geode could show himself - he doesn't need a handler but he has a good one nonetheless!


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## DanaRuns

Good head position elongates the neck and looks elegant. Geode's is pretty perfect in the above photo.

I'm going to against the grain and encourage you not to work too hard at this. I think it's a nit-picking thing, and there is a wide range of head positions where dogs look great. Pro handlers will use a particular technique to hide a fault or show off a particularly good trait. But unless you're trying to hide something or show something off, I wouldn't get into the weeds with head position. But that's just me, so take it with a grain of salt.

As to how to do it, yes, many handlers inspire the dog to look down by putting bait on the floor a few feet in front of the dog. But that can be done in training it to become a "good habit" where the bait is later abandoned. Here is my boy Deuce as a puppy. His handler baited his head down to the point where it was habit. But then he stopped using bait and just pointed with his finger. See how his handler now gets his head in the right position with an index finger that he just brings down to the ground, and the dog's gaze follows, with what was a crutch now becoming a good habit.










Still, there's a wide range of acceptable head positions. We can get a little too caught up in technicalities. One of my favorite photos of Deuce is with his head too high. I personally love it.










Just be aware that you can solve one problem and create another. Using my same dog, here the handler gets him to lower his head and the result is that he gets too far forward over his feet. This makes the neck look lovely, but destroys top line and the overall silhouette.










And here's me practicing with Deuce and completely screwing up his head, but IMHO he still looks good. This is with bait on the ground and me holding his head up too high and too far back.










The lesson I'd take is to not work too hard at any one thing at the expense of a good, natural, balanced stance. I think you're doing fantastic! Don't over-think it, just keep doing what you're doing.


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## FinnTheFloof

DanaRuns said:


> Good head position elongates the neck and looks elegant. Geode's is pretty perfect in the above photo.
> 
> I'm going to against the grain and encourage you not to work too hard at this. I think it's a nit-picking thing, and there is a wide range of head positions where dogs look great. Pro handlers will use a particular technique to hide a fault or show off a particularly good trait. But unless you're trying to hide something or show something off, I wouldn't get into the weeds with head position. But that's just me, so take it with a grain of salt.


I know that I'd like to draw attention away from his rear in basically any way possible, and also look like I know how to show goldens. Because of the latter, I think that I should probably make it a goal to get correct head position. However, am I correct in thinking that correcting his posting issue is more important?


DanaRuns said:


> As to how to do it, yes, many handlers inspire the dog to look down by putting bait on the floor a few feet in front of the dog. But that can be done in training it to become a "good habit" where the bait is later abandoned. Here is my boy Deuce as a puppy. His handler baited his head down to the point where it was habit. But then he stopped using bait and just pointed with his finger. See how his handler now gets his head in the right position with an index finger that he just brings down to the ground, and the dog's gaze follows, with what was a crutch now becoming a good habit.
> 
> View attachment 885645


Thank you! I can try that!


DanaRuns said:


> Good head position elongates the neck and looks elegant. Geode's is pretty perfect in the above photo.
> 
> I'm going to against the grain and encourage you not to work too hard at this. I think it's a nit-picking thing, and there is a wide range of head positions where dogs look great. Pro handlers will use a particular technique to hide a fault or show off a particularly good trait. But unless you're trying to hide something or show something off, I wouldn't get into the weeds with head position. But that's just me, so take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> As to how to do it, yes, many handlers inspire the dog to look down by putting bait on the floor a few feet in front of the dog. But that can be done in training it to become a "good habit" where the bait is later abandoned. Here is my boy Deuce as a puppy. His handler baited his head down to the point where it was habit. But then he stopped using bait and just pointed with his finger. See how his handler now gets his head in the right position with an index finger that he just brings down to the ground, and the dog's gaze follows, with what was a crutch now becoming a good habit.
> 
> View attachment 885645
> 
> 
> Still, there's a wide range of acceptable head positions. We can get a little too caught up in technicalities. One of my favorite photos of Deuce is with his head too high. I personally love it.
> 
> View attachment 885644


I love that photo as well! I think he looks lovely!


DanaRuns said:


> Good head position elongates the neck and looks elegant. Geode's is pretty perfect in the above photo.
> 
> I'm going to against the grain and encourage you not to work too hard at this. I think it's a nit-picking thing, and there is a wide range of head positions where dogs look great. Pro handlers will use a particular technique to hide a fault or show off a particularly good trait. But unless you're trying to hide something or show something off, I wouldn't get into the weeds with head position. But that's just me, so take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> As to how to do it, yes, many handlers inspire the dog to look down by putting bait on the floor a few feet in front of the dog. But that can be done in training it to become a "good habit" where the bait is later abandoned. Here is my boy Deuce as a puppy. His handler baited his head down to the point where it was habit. But then he stopped using bait and just pointed with his finger. See how his handler now gets his head in the right position with an index finger that he just brings down to the ground, and the dog's gaze follows, with what was a crutch now becoming a good habit.
> 
> View attachment 885645
> 
> 
> Still, there's a wide range of acceptable head positions. We can get a little too caught up in technicalities. One of my favorite photos of Deuce is with his head too high. I personally love it.
> 
> View attachment 885644
> 
> 
> Just be aware that you can solve one problem and create another. Using my same dog, here the handler gets him to lower his head and the result is that he gets too far forward over his feet. This makes the neck look lovely, but destroys top line and the overall silhouette.
> 
> View attachment 885646
> 
> 
> The lesson I'd take is to not work too hard at any one thing at the expense of a good, natural, balanced stance. I think you're doing fantastic! Don't over-think it, just keep doing what you're doing.


Thank you!


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## FinnTheFloof

I couldn’t get a single non posting stack today. Am I setting his legs too far forward?








this is with front legs set, but not rear.
Also, is my “armband” in the right place? Should it be higher?

Side question: does this look like ok movement?


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## FinnTheFloof

FinnTheFloof said:


> I couldn’t get a single non posting stack today. Am I setting his legs too far forward?
> View attachment 885672
> 
> this is with front legs set, but not rear.
> Also, is my “armband” in the right place? Should it be higher?
> 
> Side question: does this look like ok movement?
> View attachment 885673
> 
> View attachment 885674


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## Prism Goldens

I think even though you weren't able to get a good pic today, you are moving him at the right speed and yes, your armband is in the right place! 
I know things are falling into place for you, and I admire your willingness to work and make that relationship with Finn.


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## FinnTheFloof

Prism Goldens said:


> I think even though you weren't able to get a good pic today, you are moving him at the right speed and yes, your armband is in the right place!


Great!


Prism Goldens said:


> I know things are falling into place for you, and I admire your willingness to work and make that relationship with Finn.


Thank you! I'm trying really hard to do a lot with him because I don't think I'll be able to get my own dog before going to college n stuff. This may or may not have caused me to be going in like 6 different directions with him at once and confusing myself but y'know what


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## FinnTheFloof

FinnTheFloof said:


> Great!
> 
> Thank you! I'm trying really hard to do a lot with him because I don't think I'll be able to get my own dog before going to college n stuff. This may or may not have caused me to be going in like 6 different directions with him at once and confusing myself but y'know what


No seriously I'm simultaneously thinking about his CGC (I'd like him to get both his CGC and CGCA), trick dog, juniors, obedience, agility, and rally 😅 
I need to pick a direction and go in it but it's difficult when you've got basically one chance to do everything you want until like 10 years later


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## FinnTheFloof

Even though hand stacking didn't go well yesterday, free stacking was great!








(don't ask about that lead please lol)
Are goldens usually free stacked front toward the judge with the handler stepping out of the way, or turned to the side for a profile? Or does it depend on the dog?


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## Prism Goldens

He is benefitting so much from all your work! 
If you're talking about at end of down/back, park yourself where ever you believe it'll go best, and stay there- judge will walk around. In Juniors, you may want to pivot a bit @ that point, to give a nod to the junior dance but I don't think judge would expect you in full dance mode after a down/back.


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## FinnTheFloof

Prism Goldens said:


> He is benefitting so much from all your work!
> If you're talking about at end of down/back, park yourself where ever you believe it'll go best, and stay there- judge will walk around. In Juniors, you may want to pivot a bit @ that point, to give a nod to the junior dance but I don't think judge would expect you in full dance mode after a down/back.


Yep, at the end of a pattern. 


Prism Goldens said:


> In Juniors, you may want to pivot a bit @ that point, to give a nod to the junior dance but I don't think judge would expect you in full dance mode after a down/back.


🤣


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## FinnTheFloof

I really don't want to give up with him, but I may have to find a dog to co own. He cannot currently be shown, and there's only so much that I can improve on my own. He needs to learn to control himself in a ring full of other dogs, and I almost definitely won't be able to go to handling class with him. It is an hour away, making it a three hour endeavor, at the end of a long work day for my parents and a school day for me. The only class closer us one where I learned many of my mistakes where I and someone else that's helping me don't really like the teacher. I'll have to do homework in the car and it won't work. I can't find anyone local with a ring trained dog (found someone on facebook willing to help but they haven't gotten back to us) to practice with. I'm really worried that I won't be able to finish training him and won't be able to find a co own without having shown in juniors at all. I'm not sure what to do.


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## Tagrenine

I'm not sure how feasible it is, but there is a few resources for retired show dogs? What part of the US are you located in?


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> I'm not sure how feasible it is, but there is a few resources for retired show dogs? What part of the US are you located in?


I'm CT.


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## Prism Goldens

Back in history when I taught JS classes for my kennel club, I found all my juniors finished boys to co-own. Back then there was a site called BestJunior.com that's no longer available (takes a mama whose kids involvement keeps her abreast of latest I suppose). But ask Maddie next week- she may know someone. And email whoever's on the BestJunior.com doing stats- it is still up but no longer the go-to for dogs, etc, but that person may know of another resource.


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## FinnTheFloof

Prism Goldens said:


> But ask Maddie next week- she may know someone.


I will.


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## FinnTheFloof

I tried again today and it just did not work. All of the distraction training we've been doing went absolutely out the window when other dogs would walk past. I've been working on this for weeks and it's like it never happened and all went in one ear and out the other. He still has no concept of focus, no concept of staying put, no concept of standing with his body over his front. Nothing. I've never felt worse about his training. I think that I'm just going to try to find a dog to co own. If I can't teach him how to stack properly, and I can't go to classes, and I can't teach him to ignore other dogs, then there's no point. I'm looking at goldens, berners, collies, and clumbers for co owns.


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## Megora

Even if you do a co-own, you still typically need to do classes. It's learning how to handle in a more dog-show type environment. Your parents need to be more on board and willing to take you to classes. 

Classes I attend off and on... there is a junior whose parents bring her to handling classes every week so she can work with the dog she competes with. I think the dog is owned by her grandparents. The girl is very good as a result because she has her grandparents helping her, her parents bringing her to classes, instructor teaching her (And really being hands on and extra corrective with her - to help her "get good").


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## FinnTheFloof

Megora said:


> Even if you do a co-own, you still typically need to do classes. It's learning how to handle in a more dog-show type environment. Your parents need to be more on board and willing to take you to classes.
> 
> Classes I attend off and on... there is a junior whose parents bring her to handling classes every week so she can work with the dog she competes with. I think the dog is owned by her grandparents. The girl is very good as a result because she has her grandparents helping her, her parents bringing her to classes, instructor teaching her (And really being hands on and extra corrective with her - to help her "get good").


I can't do classes because I can't drive and my parents are both too burnt out at the end of long work days to make a three hour commitment for something they have no interest in (2 hours of which are driving). If there were classes on the weekends or closer to home they'd be happy to take me, but there just aren't.


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## Megora

FinnTheFloof said:


> I can't do classes because I can't drive and my parents are both too burnt out at the end of long work days to make a three hour commitment for something they have no interest in (2 hours of which are driving). If there were classes on the weekends or closer to home they'd be happy to take me, but there just aren't.


Are there no training locations closer to home?


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## FinnTheFloof

Megora said:


> Are there no training locations closer to home?


There's one very slightly closer, but everyone else that I've talked to has told me to avoid the instructor. I went to two classes there, did what she told me, and everyone else (including people on GRC) told me that I was doing the same things wrong. However, it's still about 40 mins of driving on a good day.


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## Megora

FinnTheFloof said:


> There's one very slightly closer, but everyone else that I've talked to has told me to avoid the instructor. I went to two classes there, did what she told me, and everyone else (including people on GRC) told me that I was doing the same things wrong. However, it's still about 40 mins of driving on a good day.


40 minutes is acceptable to me... generally speaking. You may find that 30-45 minutes is average distance people go for classes. Most dog shows will likely be 1-3 hours away. 

Why did people tell you to avoid the instructor? 

No idea what GRC is....


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## FinnTheFloof

Megora said:


> 40 minutes is acceptable to me... generally speaking. You may find that 30-45 minutes is average distance people go for classes. Most dog shows will likely be 1-3 hours away.
> 
> Why did people tell you to avoid the instructor?
> 
> No idea what GRC is....


They’re fine bringing me to shows because they're on weekends. 

Because they don't agree with how she trains and doesn't think that her teaching methods are successful or productive.

I meant GRF- I was thinking about clubs from a different conversation so typed GRC by mistake.


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## Prism Goldens

I need help in FL- why don't you just plan on HSing and move down here w me lol! I miss having a daughter who shows dogs in the house...


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## FinnTheFloof

Prism Goldens said:


> I need help in FL- why don't you just plan on HSing and move down here w me lol! I miss having a daughter who shows dogs in the house...


I wish we lived near you! (or was HSed... or both lol)


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## K9-Design

FinnTheFloof said:


> I tried again today and it just did not work. All of the distraction training we've been doing went absolutely out the window when other dogs would walk past. I've been working on this for weeks and it's like it never happened and all went in one ear and out the other. He still has no concept of focus, no concept of staying put, no concept of standing with his body over his front. Nothing. I've never felt worse about his training. I think that I'm just going to try to find a dog to co own. If I can't teach him how to stack properly, and I can't go to classes, and I can't teach him to ignore other dogs, then there's no point. I'm looking at goldens, berners, collies, and clumbers for co owns.


GIRL your puppy is only like 5 months old. Trust me I expect puppies to forget everything and not hold still until they are out of 9-12 month class! Plus, 90% of handling is THE HANDLER. I learned with my first dog, training too much RUINS THEM. So you're headed down that same path of disappointment. 
Even if you bought a dog on a co-own, even if it's a finished dog who knows the ring routine, YOU need to learn to handle. You must go to class, or take lessons, or you'll spend a lot of time making big expensive mistakes in the ring at shows (ask me how I know). 
You're putting way too much pressure on your dog and yourself at this point...


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## ArkansasGold

One of my handler friends always tells me that “nothing important ever happened at a dog show”. Which means “relax you idiot!”

So, r e l a x. Puppies are turkeys. It’s ok. Not every training session goes as planned. We all have bad training days - even with our adult dogs. Sometimes they just leave their brains in the house. Sometimes we leave our brains in the house. It happens.


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## DanaRuns

K9-Design said:


> GIRL your puppy is only like 5 months old. Trust me I expect puppies to forget everything and not hold still until they are out of 9-12 month class! Plus, 90% of handling is THE HANDLER. I learned with my first dog, training too much RUINS THEM. So you're headed down that same path of disappointment.
> Even if you bought a dog on a co-own, even if it's a finished dog who knows the ring routine, YOU need to learn to handle. You must go to class, or take lessons, or you'll spend a lot of time making big expensive mistakes in the ring at shows (ask me how I know).
> You're putting way too much pressure on your dog and yourself at this point...


What Anney said.


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## FinnTheFloof

Thank you, everyone. I've taken a few days off with him and am feeling much better and am ready to keep trying.


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## FinnTheFloof

Lesson learned- don't break your dog. Finn no longer enjoys our show training because I've been too stressed about it, and for a number of other factors it just won't work out with him. However, I'm still going with him in trick dog and scent work, as well as working towards his CGC and hopefully starting in Rally. 
I've found another dog to work with in juniors (Pembroke Welsh Corgi) and will be showing him at the end of the month.
Thank you so much to everyone who helped me out here, I appreciate all of your advice and will hopefully be a better listener in the future.


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## FinnTheFloof

An update on my showing- showing with the corgi went well (see my most recent thread) and I am going to be showing him again in breed and hopefully in Juniors (if the co own paperwork will go through in time) at the Thanksgiving shows in West Springfield, MA. There is also a golden specialty on one of the days and I am set up to help out a breeder with her dogs.


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## FinnTheFloof

the stacking vibes that are happening here- got him stacked real nice after grooming and his head was out of frame


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## FinnTheFloof

this is what we’ve got with full body in frame... it’s better than it used to be? Question mark? 
he’s going through a giraffe phase right now so will look weird regardless, but I think he’s posting less than he used to?


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## Tagrenine

FinnTheFloof said:


> View attachment 888582
> 
> this is what we’ve got with full body in frame... it’s better than it used to be? Question mark?
> he’s going through a giraffe phase right now so will look weird regardless, but I think he’s posting less than he used to?


Have you ever considered showing him in UKC? It’s a lot of fun and may be good as you prepare for your own show Golden. I know you already do juniors and are doing awesome at that, so you might not need the extra practice


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> Have you ever considered showing him in UKC? It’s a lot of fun and may be good as you prepare for your own show Golden. I know you already do juniors and are doing awesome at that, so you might not need the extra practice


Would the UKC like him?? As much as I love him, if he were winning in any conformation I’d be a bit concerned about the judging protocols and breed standard of that organization. Is it meant to be more so I don’t become known as “that one kid who showed the BYB golden in breed” among AKC folks? 

As it stands, a dog show would be incredibly stressful for both him, and any learned behavior would go out the window. I am hoping that over time we can improve manners (working hard at that right now) and slowly adjust him to crowds and crowds of dogs. However, I don’t think it would really be a positive experience for either of us at the moment. I’m hoping to find a larger dog to show that is another sporting breed (one of the other retriever breeds, maybe) to try to get myself used to the style of showing.


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## Tagrenine

FinnTheFloof said:


> Would the UKC like him?? As much as I love him, if he were winning in any conformation I’d be a bit concerned about the judging protocols and breed standard of that organization. Is it meant to be more so I don’t become known as “that one kid who showed the BYB golden in breed” among AKC folks?
> 
> As it stands, a dog show would be incredibly stressful for both him, and any learned behavior would go out the window. I am hoping that over time we can improve manners (working hard at that right now) and slowly adjust him to crowds and crowds of dogs. However, I don’t think it would really be a positive experience for either of us at the moment. I’m hoping to find a larger dog to show that is another sporting breed (one of the other retriever breeds, maybe) to try to get myself used to the style of showing.


There is no doubt he’s out of standard, but only because he’s a lighter boned dog. UKC is only owner handlers and it could be good practice BUT if it will stress him out, I don’t think it’s worth it.


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## ArkansasGold

Your stacking skills have definitely improved since you started this thread! All four feet and his head appear to be in a good spot for him the full frame photo. Well done!


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## FinnTheFloof

Tagrenine said:


> There is no doubt he’s out of standard, but only because he’s a lighter boned dog. UKC is only owner handlers and it could be good practice BUT if it will stress him out, I don’t think it’s worth it.


I might try it a bit later!


ArkansasGold said:


> Your stacking skills have definitely improved since you started this thread! All four feet and his head appear to be in a good spot for him the full frame photo. Well done!


Thank you! He still posts a lot but I think we're both getting better at it, and I think that he's more confident. Now I just need to get pretty stacked photos outside lol


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## FinnTheFloof

General update-
For anyone who’s wondering, I’m having a great time showing my corgi and have gotten to work with other breeds, including Irish wolfhounds, and I’m meeting with a golden handler this weekend to discuss working for her. Finn is still a BYB disaster and he still posts, but he’s not as bad as he was.









































First stack picture is June, second is about a week ago. I like to think that I understand how to do it now, or at least much better than before.


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## Megora

Been wondering about you.... 

One warning... once you get your hands on a golden that's made right and doesn't need to be wrestled into correct position for stacking, you will not want to stack your boy anymore. Doesn't mean he's less a dog or that you can't do anything with him (please give obedience comp a serious try - have a feeling both you and he will love it), but you'll get a very strong idea why some can be very turfy about keeping good structure in what people breed and not throwing that out the window as long as the dog can retrieve all day.


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## FinnTheFloof

Megora said:


> Been wondering about you....
> 
> One warning... once you get your hands on a golden that's made right and doesn't need to be wrestled into correct position for stacking, you will not want to stack your boy anymore. Doesn't mean he's less a dog or that you can't do anything with him (please give obedience comp a serious try - have a feeling both you and he will love it), but you'll get a very strong idea why some can be very turfy about keeping good structure in what people breed and not throwing that out the window as long as the dog can retrieve all day.


I am trying obedience with him! Unfortunately I just went to camp for 2 months and he forgot his heeling skills, so we are starting from scratch again (my parents don’t keep it up while I’m away and I didn’t do correct foundations). I think we’ll enjoy it and he’ll also enjoy goofy stuff like FastCAT and dock diving.


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## Tagrenine

Great job!!


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