# Could really use a ton of moral support here....



## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Boone, our almost 1 year old has serious over excitement issues, especially charging at the fence. We have been working on clicker training (other posts on this), and things are coming along, but it, of course hasnt cured anything yet...its a work in progress. He does very well with clicker, unless he has a high distactor, such as people and especially dogs. He lunges at fence wanting to grab hold of people. He is not aggressive, but defenintely still a hige problem (other posts also).

So today, we had a trainer come over. We were outside in my small front yard...3 adults....He was doing very well with clicker, in fact, triner said Boone responds best, but of course its just a beginning...WHEN IT HAPPENED. My wort nightmare come true. A person came by, and even though both trainer and I on our way to grab Boone bothe yelled to move back (seh was approaching fence), she actually flaials arm over fence (i dunno to pet him?? confused) and he grabbed for her and BROKE SKIN. LONG MORNING AT E/R...she got 3 surgi strips and was sent on her way, with antibiotics and a tetanus. Thankfully she was not seriously hurt and she also signed a paper that we notarized not to hold us in any way reponsible except for any uncovered medical bill from today. She also signed she would not pursue any reports on my dog. She did realize she was partially t fault for putting her hand over fence. I have no clue why she would continue toward fence with a barking excited dog with people telling her to step back. Her arm clearly came over fence..with trainer as witness. Trqiner spoke to me afterwards and reassured me it way in NO WAY aggresive, but a dog who is clearly overexcited. We are continuing her coming and will come up with a plan of action. Told her I needed to decompress after such a crazy day and talk to her tomorrow. BY THE WAY...bite was really tear from her puling away and there was no bite or scratch on under part of her arm, which means Boone did not bite down, but was reaching for her. Not to say this is acceptable of course....but I wanted you to understand the bite more...No stitches, not deep and about an inch long of a tear in the skin. I was able to stop bleeding immediately (thank god I have first aid knowledge). 

NONETHELESS....I am DEVASTATED. I had clicker training planned for tomrrow and our plan was to just attend to get him used to being there, since he also has a difficult time accepting treats last week at the group class. He was clearly scared of being at park without his "siblings" (also other post on this). I think I need to re-think how to approach this problem and clear my head first before doing anything withhim. I am still upset, anxious and scared, and tomorrow will not be enough time for me to process all this and clear my head. I am potpoing training in park not cancelling completely, but will continue at home. 

No matter how many people tell me it was clearly not aggresive, I am so upset this happened. Devastated,,,,horrified and so on....

Can anyone give me some words of encouragement? I really could use something, anything to feel like all this will work out in the end. 

Clearly....we are fast forwarding plans to get taller gate, even if we have to borrow the money. In the meantime...I'm falling apart


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Well, first of all be "happy" it happened while the trainer was present. He/She now sees the extent of the problem, how over excited your dog gets and can work to correct the behaviors. The trainer was also on hand as a witness and as a professional that can exactly understand, evaluate and describe the whole incident. That being said, any and I mean any responsible dog owner would be horrified if their dog bit anyone no matter the circumstances.

Now you can target in on the areas that need to be corrected working with a professional and I would also ask the person that was involved today to help. Obviously they like your dog, now ask them to help with correcting the behavior and one day they will be able to come into the yard and pet and play with your dog. You have a great opportunity to turn this really "hard" day into something positive, just readjust your view of the day. 

I wish you all the best.

Vanessa


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry that this happened and I'm thankful that everything turned out well. But I would caution you against saying that she was partially at fault. You are responsible for keeping your dog from injuring others, no one else. You cannot expect others to help you in this task. Sure, it is reasonable to expect an adult to step back from the fence at that point (I'm surprised that she didn't), but what if that was a small child? Its really important to think about that because if your dog in any way hurts a child, a parent can really go after you and I've even heard of dogs that were just overexcited and etc etc getting euthanized because of the parents of a child that was injured pursued legal action. 

I'm not blaming you in any way, I know you are doing your best! Just be very careful, I would really hate for anything bad to happen to you, anyone else, or especially your sweet puppy. Keep us posted on how the training goes!


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I have more to say, but I'm cooking right now so I'll come back and edit more in when I'm done, but just to ease your immediate panic... 

I agree that any sane and reasonable dog owner would be horrified by their dog "biting" someone (I only put this in quotes because like you said, it was more mouthing gone bad). I think that this is something that should be very heavily worked on with Boone, if only so that he can have pleasant and happy interactions with new people! However, I'm having serious question marks over my head at what this lady was thinking... I wouldn't say the injury was completely her fault but I would say it's a little more than partially her fault. There were three adults outside, probably quite obviously working with the dog, you shouted at her to not do what she did... but she put her body parts in your property anyway. I really dislike how little respect a lot of people have when it comes to a dog in training or even just a dog hanging out in it's own yard. You wouldn't randomly go up and pat someone's kid on the head over their fence. I'm so happy this lady was reasonable enough to not take any serious action against Boone and that a trainer was able to see the full extent of his excitability so that hopefully you guys can move past this hurdle safely.

Edit :: This is not to say that if this happened with a small child that it would be excusable, just that it surprises me how often people ignore a clear "Please don't come near my dog while we are on our own property". At that point, what can you do? Especially when training is already underway.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

I'll be watching this thread closely as Caue is a big mouther. So far no broken skin from his enthusiastic greetings. He really just wants attention. The thing that scares me is that we are working around so many people who are carrying a sidearm at the moment. :doh:


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

I completely agree! I don't know what this person was thinking. I think people definitely have to think a little harder and be more respectful when it comes to other people's dogs. I will never understand why people think its a good idea to just go charging up to a completely unfamiliar dog and wave their hands near its head, without so much as checking with the owner. And in this case she was even warned against it. But at the same time you are responsible for your dog, even around people who are completely irresponsible, especially children. 

I think that it should be universally understood that a person should ask the handler/owner before approaching a dog. Its amazing how little you see people do this, even other dog owners! It is extremely frustrating when you are trying to work with your dog, even with a very friendly dog and you are just working on walking nicely on a leash, and another owner lets their dog drag themselves up to you, barking and growling the whole time and say "Oh they just want to say hi!" Then your dog is completely distracted and excited, and there goes all his focus for the day! And that's just with a very friendly dog!

But I think on the whole we just have to understand the world we are living in and realize that other people just don't understand that not all dogs are friendly and well behaved and that even the best meaning dogs can cause injury when excited, even if they aren't trying to.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I have just started reading Control Unleashed by Leslie McDivitt and I recommend it to you. It is about overly excited dogs and how to calm them. I got my copy from our library, so you might try there if you don't want to buy it at first.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

It doesn't sound like an aggression problem... that said, I think that it's a really good thing that you have a trainer helping you and you are considering putting a taller fence up so people can't stick their hands over the top. I think this might be an anxiety thing that has progressively gotten worse since that first time you posted about this problem.

Right now I would be putting a leash on and going out with your dog each time. That way you can keep him from charging the fence again and calming him down immediately. And keep that leash on with you keeping him under control until he grows up a bit.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am that things aren't going the way they were supposed to. Don't be too hard on yourself... you've recognized that this issue has to be corrected and you are taking steps to do so. Don't give up.


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

Don't be too hard on yourself or your pup. Boone is still learning. Yes, he has a ways to go, but you're doing what you can to fix the problem, before it becomes a bigger one. 

I have a dog that gets overexcited too - just in other circumstances. I'm not sure how he'd do in your situation, but I'm sure he would react badly if he was behind a fence watching people walk back and forth while he was stuck inside. I think with the help of your trained professional, you'll work out ways to manage the situation. Time will also help. He's young yet. 

The woman really didn't help, but it doesn't really help to blame her. Our Ben has a problem with bicycles. I've told people who approach us on bikes to stay away, or even to stop and wait for a minute. Most of the time, their response is to put on speed, zipping past us even faster. That drives Ben mad. He lunges at the bike. If they would stop and let us walk past them, there would be no problem. But they usually don't. Still, I can't blame them. I blame Ben's lack of training. Our management solution is to avoid busy trails on weekends, but even during the week, we sometimes get surprised. If we can find somebody to help us, we'll work at desensitizing him to wheels in close proximity. But it really is OUR problem and one WE need to work on. Though I do wish the bicyclists would use a little sense when approaching a strange dog.

I do understand how you feel though. When Ben gets overexcited and jumps on people, I am mortified. I know he doesn't understand what he's doing, he just feels excitement and can't handle it. But I feel a combination of embarrassment (my child misbehaved!), shame (I should be doing more to train him out of it), and fear (what if it had been worse?) The good news is, he is getting better - he's learning more self-control - and we're getting better at management - learning to diffuse the situation when it starts to get out of control. It doesn't always work, but it is getting better.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks so much for those with encouraging words. I spoke to the trainer again in short last night and we plan on talking again today once I settle down. Funny...its me that needs settling down now, not Boone. My husband and I have discussed the situation AT LENGTH last night. Quite an upsetting discussion to say the least. All emotions of the day were hashed up again, and yet again as I type this. Much like when you have kids, the 2 parties involved with raising the dogs must agree before formulating a plan of action, and we do have specifics in mind. First, of course, is continued training. It is a necessity at this point, not a luxury. Secondly, while control is being worked on, we are putting up a fence pronto. I must first look up city ordinances as to how high the fence can be in the front of our house. I origianlly wanted 4 feet, but I may feel better with 5 foot. It may look alittle awkward in comparison to our "row house" street where all the fences are alike, but I feel it will give me better piece of mind. I want to prevent people from sticking their hands over the fence. Until the fence goes up (which will hopefully be 2 weeks at most), I cannot let Boone out there without either a leash or muzzle. Some people may not agree with the muzzle, but you may not understand the extent of my fear that I still carry. I cant depend on people to follow my directions, for whatever crazy reason they have, and i WILL NOT let anything happen to my dog because of these crazy circumstances. I will not have that fear in me again. Tears are welling up as I even type it, even a day later. I cannot risk my dogs life nor can I risk losing my house, and of course, I cannot allow someone to get hurt. Although I know Boone is not aggressive, it is clear he is too over-excitable. 

Again, thank you for your support. It means alot to me....

edited to add.....husband is increasing dog walks to try to work on excess energy as well. (for safety reasons...until we have better control of the dogs, I cannot walk them)


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

It sounds like you are taking really great, responsible steps towards dealing with this situation. I applaud you for being so safety conscious! Good luck!! Keep us posted on his progress, I'm sure with a little more training everything will be just fine!


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Jax's Mom*

Jax's Mom

I am so very sorry that this happened to you and Boone. So glad that the person signed something she will not pursue any charges.

YOU DID warn her NOT to put her hand over fence. People need to respect what the owner says.

I agree completely that no matter how you get a taller fence, that is a must.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

I really empathize with you, Jax's Mom. Many times I have had strangers come up to pet my dogs when I was walking two or three at once, with a young one who was still learning good leash manners. Despite pleas to move away and leave my dogs alone, some people insist that they don't mind dog hair and licks and really just have to pet my dogs. They don't notice (or care) that I might be working hard to keep the young dog under control. 

It sounds to me like you are doing all the right things in this situation. Plainly you recognize the seriousness of what happened and you have been working to help Boone improve.

Sadly, this is an important point:


vcm5 said:


> I'm so sorry that this happened and I'm thankful that everything turned out well. But I would caution you against saying that she was partially at fault. You are responsible for keeping your dog from injuring others, no one else. You cannot expect others to help you in this task. Sure, it is reasonable to expect an adult to step back from the fence at that point (I'm surprised that she didn't), but what if that was a small child? Its really important to think about that because if your dog in any way hurts a child, a parent can really go after you and I've even heard of dogs that were just overexcited and etc etc getting euthanized because of the parents of a child that was injured pursued legal action.


That said, let me offer some practical advice. People can take legal action to have your dog euthanized, and they can also go after you and all of your personal assets - savings, house, etc. If you don't have an "umbrella" personal liability insurance policy, you might want to get one. (I am _NOT_ an insurance agent; I _do_ have this insurance.) A good umbrella policy with $2 million in coverage costs under $200 a year. The coverage typically includes legal defense in the event of a lawsuit. Make sure you read the limitations and find one that will cover you if some idiot (or child) does something foolish and gets hurt with your dogs and/or on your property.

I hope you can take a few deep breaths and calm yourself, despite the obvious trauma. There is much in your story to be grateful for.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks GoldensGirl for that wonderful advice. That definitely is something to look into. It is too bad that people aren't a little smarter around dogs. Yes, they are cute but they can also be big, strong, excited, carried away, and even sometimes aggressive and this must be respected.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks for the insurance umbrella suggestion! I will look into that as another personal safeguard. I am a firm believer in good insurance coverage!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Speaking as another trainer, here's what I don't understand: The trainer was there to work on barrier arousal (fancy name for "fence lunging") and in doing so, didn't have the dog on leash, nor is she able to control the environment (knowing who might walk past, what they might do, etc.). That, to me, is setting up the dog to fail.

In working on arousal issues, one of the primary, most important goals, is to keep the dog sub-threshold. Every time you push the dog too far, and he reacts, you take a step backward in training.

I obviously don't know this trainer, and I don't want to sound like I'm bad mouthing her, but this definitely concerns me. Or did I misunderstand and he was leashed, but just got away from the two of you? In any case, if he was so reactive that he was able to get away from two people, he was WAAYYYYY over threshold.

What is the basis of the training program she's designed for you? 

So sorry you had such a scary incident. :-( A leash a a definitely must, IMO. Muzzle is optional, but if you decide to use it, make SURE it's a basket muzzle, not one of the cloth/nylon ones. They can cool themselves so much easier in a well-fitting basket muzzle. Also great to desensitize to it first:






Hope you're feeling better. Chin up. You'll get him through this!


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I second the umbrella insurance especially if your homeowners doesn't cover it, some already do. My husband worked for an insurance company for many years, not selling, and we have always had it. But you also need to talk to your agent because they can cancel your insurance if you have dog related claims and don't get rid of the dog.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Ahh the most frustrating thing in the world is when you are trying to teach your dog not to jump and people say "I don't mind!! He is so cute!" and pet him when they jump on you. Its hard to politely tell them that it is absolutely not allowed and by then the damage has usually been done!


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

I am no expert on dog training, but when we went outside, it was her first visit, and I am pretty sure she wanted to see him in action, especially since in the house, he seemed so well behaved and not super excitable (of course, isnt that always the way). I need to call her as far as what plan we will have for this week. I was too overwhelmed yesterday(and even a bit today) to go into it any further. She did mention bringing a long lead next time though. 

As far as the policy goes, I am going to check on it very soon. We have decided to put a temporary addition to the top of the fence tomorrow so we can work on getting the plans for the new fence in action without continuing to worry. Luckily, my husband has experience with putting up fencing, so it shouldnt be too hard. Its just a question of getting the parts and the man power (some of his work friends). I am hoping to have the new fence up in 2 weeks, in the menatime, I am calling city planning zoning help desk to get a maximum fence height. I do think the max height is 4 feet unfortunately. I was hoping for 5 feet. If 4 feet is the case, we will construct the 4 foot fence then use the diagonal additon to the top. It tips back into the yard, and is usually used for barbed wire on the top of tall fence, OBVIOUSLY we will not use barbed wire, but we will add utility fencing. In this way, if the city does complain, we can merely take off the topper and not worry about needing to take the entrie fence down. It gets so complicated....sigh....


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Rather than go the muzzle route, I bought a long lead to take Boone out with. We also put up a temp extension to the top of our fence, more to keep wandering hands from coming in than the other way around. It looks crappy, but its only a temporary fix until we get the permanent 4 foot fence (zoning law only permits this as max). We will worry about the extension on it once we see how the 4 foot works. In the menatime, I am sticking with this trainer for a few sessions until we see what she does next. If it doesnt work out, we will get another one. We are also continuing the clicker training. He does well as long as he is under threshold (OK, so now I am using the fancy terminology lol) 

One question though...since I have the long lead, do you think its ok for me to let all 3 out at the same time when not doing the training?


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Jax's Mom*

Jax'd Mom

Praying for Boone and you.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Jax's Mom said:


> One question though...since I have the long lead, do you think its ok for me to let all 3 out at the same time when not doing the training?


Do they rile each other up? The reality is that ANY time you're outside with him, you need to be prepared to jump into training mode b/c a dog or person could come by... and when that happens, you need to create a successful experience for Boone.

If he can train with the others out there and w/o them interfering, you can try all three at once ... although it doesn't address the *other* troublesome issue of Boone not being as comfortable w/o his pack. But if the others bark too (even if not as rambunctiously as Boone), and that ramps Boone up even more, you're shooting yourself in the foot having all three out at once.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Would a 2nd fence inside the first one work? It would give you distance from the street instead of hieght but might work with your zoning laws. I'm sorry you and Boone are going through this.


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## Jax's Mom (Oct 16, 2009)

Thanks to all with the great positive comments and advice.

I missed the response to the last question I asked, and THANKYOU FlyingQuizini, as usual with some good advice. 

I have been working with Boone each and every time we go out there with clicker and treats in hand. I have tried a variety of ways to go outside, with lead, without lead, with other dogs, 1 at a time. I have noticed, over the past week, that tking them outside together definitely ramps Boone up more than when alone. Lucy definitely barks at the fence as well, and even if she does not jump at fence, this starts a tyrade of barking from Boone and Jax as well. I have managed to not let it escalate to the point of jumping up on the fence purely through diligent enforcement, but mostly, I work on avoiding the situations by being VERY mindful of whats coming up and down my block. as soon as I see a situation that may rile him up past his threshold, I take them all inside. Luckily, the training we have done so far has helped ENORMOUSLY in getting the dogs in when I say "INSIDE". If it is just a lone perosn walking by, then I work with Boone staying in sit/stay while they walk past and he is doing super at this. Other dogs...forget it! Loud people...best off avoiding for now. I hope I am doing this correctly thus far. I am also trying to give Boone Bach Flower to help him calm down alittle, although its day 2 and I really dont notice any improvement. 

Hollyk...as far as the zoning laws are concerned, we have decided to make the fence 4 feet to be compliant, but adding diagonal extension posts back into the yard (front of fence only) with a mess to stop people from sticking hands/fingers over the fence. The only section that wont be covered obviously is the gate itself, which we can stand in front of without difficulty. We are always out there with the dogs anyway.

On a personal note, I feel so saddened with all thats gone on. I never thought I would be on here asked for advice about my reactive dog. It breaks my heart and I wonder if we will ever get past this. I hope to one day look back at these posts and marvel at how far we have come, but right now...in the midst of it, I sometimes feel so overwhelmed and hopeless. Other times I just feel anxious and worried. I feel like it has consumed my every thought. My husband is supportive and so quickly put up the temprorary extension to our fence, but I know I push him way too far about the dogs as far as my worries and anxieties. I feel like I have become difficult to be around since this is all I think about and talk about.


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## lyssa (Mar 1, 2011)

I'm a bit late to jump into this thread, but reading it, I thought of a book that may help you. Control Unleashed: Creating a Focused and Confident Dog is about using operant conditioning (clicker training in this case) to help excitable and impulsive dogs learn to relax and focus. I've never read it myself but have seen it mentioned a lot, so it seems well thought of in the clicker community. I'm assuming you don't have it already - it sounds so perfect for you. I mean, you may want to just go with what your trainer says, but it can't hurt to know as much as possible in these situations. You seem to be very pro-active, and as you have said it is a serious situation that needs to be fixed at all costs.

I am so sorry you had to go through such a horrible day, but well done on how you are getting through it and working consistently at improving things.


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