# CGC Advice (Long Post)



## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

Good morning all,

I've been taking Maizie to a three week preparation class for the CGC and last night was the test. I knew pretty much all along that we were doing it for experience and she wasn't ready to pass the test. She needs more work on sitting while a stranger greets us and pets her, walking past a person and their dog and stopping to talk for a few moments, and distractions. 

Although the instructor and several others I know in class made comments about Maizie's improvement over the last few weeks, I'm not so sure of that. I've been getting her out and around people more, but she is still so over-the-top when we see people that I'm beginning to wonder if I'm asking more of her than her anxiety level will allow. Lots of people tell me it is anxiety - lunging, tail wagging, whinning and trying to get to people. She loses her hearing too  !!!

Yesterday I walked her three miles, had a few family members stop by, took her to the local pet store to hang out for about 45 minutes, got to class early and walked her around. The instructor had told me she'd probably have us go last for the test, so by the time it was our turn I felt like I'd told her to sit about a million times. No treats can be used, of course, and she's very food motivated --- so she wasn't very motivated to pay attention to me. I had the feeling that she was overwhelmed when we got to the part where she was to do a sit and a down and she wouldn't even look at me :uhoh::uhoh::uhoh: just kept sniffing all over...and she's had those commands down pat for as long as I can remember!! She would not look at me or respond!!! Things went from bad to worse when one of the distractions was a woman ringing a bell, and she just happened to be holding a little dog. Usually we were doing fairly good with distractions .... but not with walking by another dog. 

So, one question I have --- Do you think it is likely that it is because of Maizie being just over 1 1/2 years old and she will outgrow this excited response she has? Or do some dogs not outgrow it and maybe I'm asking too much of her? I so want her to be mannerly enough to take places and greet people so others can know the wonderful girl she is. She is soooo loveable and calm here at home. 

Do I just need to keep taking her places and she'll stop reacting to people? I've found most people don't have a clue about not petting her until all four are on the floor and isn't that just reinforcing her to jump and lunge? 

Isn't passing the CGC something most GR's can do? 

Maizie is our first GR...got her from a backyard breeder before I knew better. How much of her reaction to people could be due to her genes and not necessarily easily changed??? Also, I thought I was socializing her when she was young, but now that I look back on it, I wish I'd had her out and about much more, being exposed to a HUGE variety of people when she was young and small enough to handle more easily. 

This is getting long - but one more thing - what should I do next? I have the opportunity for a Graduate Basic Class in a couple weeks and they plan to give the CGC test again at the end of that class. Should I do it for more experience, or wait awhile? Also, any advice on helping her with her reactions to people, other than just keep doing what we're doing?


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

I have no advice for you, but am interested in the responses. Charlie will be starting an 8 week CGC class at the end of the month. He is only 10 months old, so we'll see how it goes...


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Mom of Maizie said:


> So, one question I have --- Do you think it is likely that it is because of Maizie being just over 1 1/2 years old and she will outgrow this excited response she has? Or do some dogs not outgrow it and maybe I'm asking too much of her? I so want her to be mannerly enough to take places and greet people so others can know the wonderful girl she is. She is soooo loveable and calm here at home.


Practice more than age will help. She is lovely and calm at home because she's used to everything. The world is still too exciting, and she's not used to giving you her attention in that context. She just needs more practice around manageable distractions (a class environment is perfect).



Mom of Maizie said:


> Do I just need to keep taking her places and she'll stop reacting to people? I've found most people don't have a clue about not petting her until all four are on the floor and isn't that just reinforcing her to jump and lunge?


Yes. She needs to be around people, but you're completely right that if she gets rewarded for jumping or lunging, she will learn to do it _more_, not less. She needs the exposure, but more importantly, she needs not to be rewarded for inappropriate behavior at all. If you can't train the person to interact properly, don't let her interact with them. I simply tell people that we're out training the dog for a certification so he can't play right now. That has the benefit of being 100% true in your situation while also providing an explanation people can understand.

You can train _around_ strangers for practice without letting them talk to her or pet her so she learns they're less of a big deal, and you can pre-train "strangers," like other folks from class, to come over and provide appropriate interactions like giving attention while she's good and taking it away if she jumps or lunges.



Mom of Maizie said:


> Isn't passing the CGC something most GR's can do?


Yes, but your girl is still pretty young. And frankly, I think 18 months is probably the hardest time for a lot of Goldens to pass. They don't have some of the mellowness that comes with age and more exposure to new things, and they're right in the middle of adolescent development, so they tend to be bad at paying attention in general. It's the classic age where dogs forget the rules, challenge the boundaries, and generally become brain-dead. Younger dogs are often less confident and easier to keep the attention of, so it can easier in some situations to pass CGC with a 9-month-old than with an 18-month-old.



Mom of Maizie said:


> Maizie is our first GR...got her from a backyard breeder before I knew better. How much of her reaction to people could be due to her genes and not necessarily easily changed??? Also, I thought I was socializing her when she was young, but now that I look back on it, I wish I'd had her out and about much more, being exposed to a HUGE variety of people when she was young and small enough to handle more easily.


It's true that BYBs don't protect the temperament of what they produce by proving their dogs and making thoughtful matches, but it sounds like Maizie is just being a classic adolescent Golden, not showing any inappropriate temperament. You could easily have been describing our Jax at 18 months, and he comes from a dozen generations of proven field and obedience dogs.



Mom of Maizie said:


> This is getting long - but one more thing - what should I do next? I have the opportunity for a Graduate Basic Class in a couple weeks and they plan to give the CGC test again at the end of that class. Should I do it for more experience, or wait awhile? Also, any advice on helping her with her reactions to people, other than just keep doing what we're doing?


More classes! Part of what you need to do is train yourself in rewarding and non-rewarding with good timing and clarity. I don't say that to imply that you're an inadequate trainer or that you're not already doing it well, but rather to make the point that we _all_ can improve our clarity and timing with training, and the clearer we are, the faster our dogs will progress.

And I wouldn't wait or take a break from classes. Class provides a wonderful opportunity to expose a dog to controlled distractions so she learns to give attention despite them. There are few environments more suited to non-rewarding things like lunging and jumping while still exposing a dog to other dogs and to new people.

Don't lose heart! I've seen it a million times: once you blow one skill or task in a high-stress environment like a test, your attitude shifts, and then your dog ends up acting completely untrained because you're not giving exactly the same signals you usually give when you're training. And then your dog's behavior makes you even more stressed (or in my case, annoyed), and then the dog really doesn't know what to do, so the test goes really badly compared to your normal training sessions. It's a classic, normal thing that happens to all of us.


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

Tippykayak - your info was helpful to me even though I'm not the OP. I thought about taking a break from level 1 class before started the CGC class because he's so young but sounds like keeping him going with it is the right decision.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

" just kept sniffing all over...and she's had those commands down pat for as long as I can remember!! She would not look at me or respond!!!"

Please don't be upset or frustrated by this. Maizie was talking to you through her behavior. She was very stressed. You guys can work through this. 

"So, one question I have --- Do you think it is likely that it is because of Maizie being just over 1 1/2 years old and she will outgrow this excited response she has?"

IMO, I do believe that dogs settle down more as they age but not enough to outgrow it. It really is you training through it. Each dog is an individual so some dogs need more time to build up their confidence to do what you are asking of them.

"Isn't passing the CGC something most GR's can do? What you see here on GRF isn't the norm. I don't believe that most goldens ever get the opportunities that the ones that are owned here do. Goldens are one of the most popular breeds so there are many of them that never even get into training at all. 

"Maizie is our first GR...got her from a backyard breeder before I knew better. How much of her reaction to people could be due to her genes and not necessarily easily changed??? "

Yes genetics does play a part in it. But this is where you need to evaluate your dog and understand her. Every thing on the test can be worked through over time with your training. Evaluate each exercise you are training and if it isn't working for her it may be time to change up how you practice that exercise. Sometimes it is just that the dog needs to learn to focus on the handler more during each exercise. During the training as the dog gets each exercise solid we need to do more than one exercise at a time before offering food rewards. This may be where you build in more praise while training so that Maizie thinks the praise is as good as the food reward.

" I have the opportunity for a Graduate Basic Class in a couple weeks and they plan to give the CGC test again at the end of that class. Should I do it for more experience, or wait awhile? "

In my experience don't wait awhile.  Those that wait awhile don't train daily with their dog. Going to the class means you have to proof her in front of others every week and helps to keep you training on the daily basis. 

Training should be fun for both you and Maizie. Going to class should be a special time between the both of you. Training daily should be thought of as a game you guys do to build up the bond of love between you both. 

Maybe in this class you and Maizie will find someone else that wants to train for the CGC and you guys can meet outside of class to help each other with parts of the exercises. This way you will have someone else that knows not to pet the pup when they are acting up and getting out of their sit, you guys can practice passing an other dog and greeting each other etc. 

I think you and Maizie should be very proud of yourselves for getting out there and working toward the CGC together. For some it is hard work and a challenge and this should be acknowledged. 

Thank you. Celebrate all the little things you both did right.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Keep up with the classes. She will settle down with more experience in a class/public/busy setting. And in addition to that, really take her everywhere and _reinforce_ the manners you want while visiting with people or walking around stores or whatever. 

With Jacks he couldn't possibly have passed the CGC test before we got into novice level competition classes. Admittedly, right from the beginning my primary focus was getting his CD. And I have to tell you, I was really wondering by the time he was 9 months to 12 months how the heck I was going to get him to handle the stand for exam (where the dog has to stand and hold a steady position, not moving a foot, while a stranger walks up and pets him). He was an overpowering highflying bouncing ball of LOVE when it came to people visiting. 

Over time he really calmed down. It took about 6 to 8 months of practicing and attending classes before I felt confident of his stand for exam. 

The dog before him had fear issues with the stand (he did not like people walking up and touching him) and he also had no concept of loose lead walking for a LONG TIME. I'll never forget my first fun match with him when he was 2-ish.  It was outside and a combined fun match and family fun event on the local high school grounds, so there were a lot of families unrelated to the trainers who were there to watch and have fun. There were a few times out there I was reaching down for his collar and holding on for dear life and he hauled me around the ring.  

The fact is that with regular classes (he did not have regular classes during his first year and a half because of lameness) he settled down and became very reliable. Dogs get used to routines when you hold them to it and give them time and practice.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

TippyKayak wrote: "More classes! Part of what you need to do is train yourself in rewarding and non-rewarding with good timing and clarity. I don't say that to imply that you're an inadequate trainer or that you're not already doing it well, but rather to make the point that we _all_ can improve our clarity and timing with training, and the clearer we are, the faster our dogs will progress."

I absolutely agree with this point. Our dogs read our body language. If we say a verbal cue but our body language is different during this stressful test it confuses our dogs and can add more stress. If we are giving hand signals and they are not consistent and clear again we can confuse our dogs.

Clarity and consistency are super important.

Thanks Tippy for your whole post it was awesome.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Teaching your dog to sit and stay for most phases of the test will go a long way. They can't jump and lunge if their rear end is firmly planted on the floor. 

I can't help but wonder if you warmed her up too much leading up to the test. She may have been burned out by the time you entered the ring. Also, by the time Bella realized I didn't have treats on me, the test was almost done. I warmed her up with treats prior to going in, and my hand still smelled like hot dogs.

The test is not as easy as it seems until you try it. For the week prior to the test, I did not think Bella would pass it. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I teach several CGC classes a week, and also test other instructor's classes and give the test at public events. I agree with the alternative behavior- making that sit/stay rock solid. Keep your focus on the dog, rather than the evaluator for the hand shake/meet&greets. You can also drop her lead and just step on it so she can't jump during class at first, since dogs do what they practice/rehearse. Then, you can reward the sit but there will be no option to jump. Just make sure you do not have any tightness in the leash when she has four on the floor. Sometimes, people work really hard in class but unteach all the good lessons in daily life. Make sure to manage her energy so that she cannot practice jumping on people. Lovable silly goldies- they mean so well.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I would personally not train just for CGC. I would train obedience in general and the CGC is the "cream on top". IMHO if you teach just for a certain thing the dog anticipates the next move in that certain environment and only gives you the impression that they have it down pat. But once that environment changes the dog will not respond to your command. 
I used to think that I had Rose trained, we go to Petco every weekend and pass people, put her in a down/whoa while the trainer there was working with the other dogs and she wold just sit and watch. 
Well, after a little over month of house arrest due to her heat, even though we practiced at home healing and other "circus" commands, I had to start all over again with her while at the store and around people. 
If I were you I would not get discouraged - after all she has been training in a class environment (I am assuming with other dogs as well) for only three weeks.
With my 10 month old I keep reminding myself the three P rule: 
Practice, Patience, Perseverance!


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Keep your focus on the dog, rather than the evaluator for the hand shake/meet&greets.


This is such good advice, and I totally overlooked it. Don't forget that in CGC training and in the test itself, your job isn't to actually greet the other person during the greeting or to be polite when you pass the other dog and handler. Keep your focus on your dog. Use your body and your body language for your dog. In real life, that would be somewhat rude to the other person. In a dog class or a CGC test, it's totally appropriate.


----------



## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

Goldens have passed the CGC as young as 4 months old so 18 months old is not too young. My 5.5 year old passed the GCG with flying colors at just 1 year old and would have passed even at a younger age if there was a local test available. He passed the TDI test shortly afterward - which to me is a glorified GCG test.

Early socialization and continued socialization in all situations is what allows a dog to be able to take life in stride. I have always taken my dog (and now puppy) everywhere I go so they have been in all types of stores, social situations (at friend's homes etc) since they came home.

Being a from a backyard breeder has nothing to do with not passing a CGC test. There are loads of rescue dogs of all breeds who pass the CGC test with no problems all the time.
Some of the worst dogs I have seen when it comes to greetings have been from breeders who many of us recommend to go to.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

IMHO it is not worth it to pass a puppy the CGC, even the AKC website recommend to re-take the test once the puppy matures. 
IMHO obedience training in the first two years of life is the platform for everything else to come. Other peripheral training is OK but the emphasis should be put on obedience during this time. But I am more old school than others here.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

There's no reason why a puppy can't prepare for the CGC and continue obedience training at the same time. Training doesn't stop once the CGC test is over. The only GCG related thing we practiced at home was grooming. She had a tendency to want to mouth me when I grabbed her paws. Not any more......


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> This is such good advice, and I totally overlooked it. Don't forget that in CGC training and in the test itself, your job isn't to actually greet the other person during the greeting or to be polite when you pass the other dog and handler. Keep your focus on your dog. Use your body and your body language for your dog. In real life, that would be somewhat rude to the other person. In a dog class or a CGC test, it's totally appropriate.


Lol, well socialized humans are so trained to make good eye contact when they shake hands, they sometimes swing their left shoulders away from their dogs so extremely it moves the dogs or the dogs feel weird bc suddenly the telephone wires are down and the owners are ignoring them.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

For my all dogs no matter what else they do, the goals are CGC six months, TDI age two. They do various other things, but these small training goals are there to make sure they get to a good level of community manners. Tally was able to do CGC TDI CD TT, and RE at two, but he did not have show ring goals competing for his time.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I would also take full advantage of the rules. You are allowed to praise and encourage your dog during exercises. Get the dog's focus on you. 

Many people have had trouble with the supervised separation. I put her in a 3 minute down stay, and that worked out well. You can practice leaving the room for stays at home. 

There is nothing in the rules that says you can't warm up with treats outside the ring prior to the test. Wear a hooded sweatshirt, or something else with pockets and treat from the pocket. Actually, do that for a few weeks at home. Your dog will never know if you have treats, or not. Also, make sure your hand smells like the treats, and keep it closed throughout the test. You can always jackpot the treats when it's over. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

All great advice. I'm going through some of the same things at the moment. I will just add this. I had the same problem in public with people not respecting that Bentley is training and he must not be petted until he is in a proper sit. I found a wonderful solution. It may not be right for everybody and I actually bought it as a joke because Ky wears one that says Body Guard but when we go out in public and Bentley is wearing this harness I find that people are much more inclined to respect the training. Good luck


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

AKC's Canine Good Citizen® (CGC) Program

AKC’S CANINE GOOD CITIZEN®

Who Can Participate?

All dogs, including both purebred and mixed breed dogs are welcome to participate in the AKC’s Canine Good Citizen (CGC) Program. Dogs must be old enough to have received necessary immunizations such as rabies vaccines. Owners will sign the Responsible Dog Owners Pledge attesting to having the dog under the routine care of a veterinarian who will work with the owner to determine an appropriate plan and schedule for vaccines and other health care procedures.

There is no age limit for the CGC test. A dog is never too old to be a good citizen. Puppies who have completed all immunizations and boosters may be tested, *however, because we know that behavior and temperament can change over time, when puppies pass the CGC test, owners should have them re-tested as adults.*

There are a few exceptions relating to participation in a CGC test. If the CGC test is given at an AKC show, the age requirements for the show apply to CGC also. Further, when the CGC test is administered at an AKC show, the test may be restricted to only dogs entered in the show or to purebred dogs.

Some dogs who are entered in CGC tests will have completed CGC classes or basic obedience classes. Owners who have trained their dogs themselves may also have their dogs tested. Clubs and training programs in almost every city can provide CGC training to owners and dogs who need to learn a few more skills before taking the test.


I guess AKC is also old school! 

I had no doubts Rose could pass the CGC at 4 to 6 months. I have doubts now in the teenage stage.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

If they were "old school" in the way you articulated it, they would raise the age limit. I intend to train Bella for as long as she lives, and will ultimately take the TDI test, or equivalent. Why would we bother to retake the CGC? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I have failed the GCG test myself. I first tried it when Mercy was 9 months old. I got Mercy from a reputable breeder, but she is still a handful and a challenge to boot. I have been training her only to pick up appropriate items. Sometimes she would rather play with my son's toys than her own. She will play chase and/or run away if she has a forbidden object in her mouth. My son plays with her toys too sometimes. :roflmao:

I have not tried the CGC test a second time, but it looks like Mercy still has a long way to go. She still pulls towards exciting things, though the test is supposed to be subtle. She doesn't always sit when people pet her and if she's on her 4s, but standing, I don't have the heart to tell the people to stop petting her if they have already started before she sits. She still ignores the down command sometimes and will sometimes run past me instead of stop during the come command. She jumps up on me when I greet her after a long time apart. Unfortunately, I work all day and my husband spends limited time with her. She will mouth me if I take a forbidden object out of her mouth. She also hates being grabbed by the collar and will duck her head and mouth me when I need to take her to her crate.

She is doing much better with her heeling, but still gets exuberant when she sees a squirrel or a cat or children on tricycles or scooters. 

I can't say for sure whether your dog's behavior is due to your getting him from a backyard breeder. I can certainly see how that might increase the risk of behavior problems. Even though Mercy has an awesome temperament, she still gets spooked by things like getting her nails done (I got her quick too many times!:doh She startles more with loud noises than my last dog did and she snaps at other dogs if they lunge at her first, which is a sign of fear.:uhoh: Yes, she's defending herself, but she should not have to or feel like she has to. I will be even more dilligent not to allow her near an aggressive dog ever again! :cavalry:She plays roughly with other rough dogs, sometimes crossing the line and mouthing them, and she submits to dogs that scare her (due to extreme roughness or bullying) or runs from them. I try to avoid these dogs if I can. Yes, I take her to the dogpark sometimes, since I am trying my luck that it will be a good crowd. I will leave if I feel that Mercy is being picked on too much. She will still pull towards other Goldens to say hello whe she's on a leash, since she loves them so! She is usually hyperfriendly with dogs in public places, but when we are on walks she is improving. I am having hikes with other dogs this spring, so she is learning better manners around them. She is currently taking intermediate classes with one other dog, a Shitzu, which is not really a distraciton for her like a big dog, although during the last play break during the class, Mercy wanted to playfully pounce on him like a toy and he was barking (yapping) back. :roflmao: I am trying to build Mercy's confidence, since she has a small trace of fearfulness. She is overall very friendly and exuberant, but doesn't have the exuberance that my last dog did.

Goldens are still a piece of work, no matter where they come from. They require *lots* of attention and *patient* training, especially when they are aldolescents. I am still trying to control my temper with her. Like Mercy, your dog is still a teenager. I hope Mercy will be ready to take the CGC by this summer. Good luck with your dog!


----------



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Ohiomom9977 said:


> Tippykayak - your info was helpful to me even though I'm not the OP. I thought about taking a break from level 1 class before started the CGC class because he's so young but sounds like keeping him going with it is the right decision.


Oh no! I didn't do that!


----------



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

To the OP, there's some great advice above. I'd just reinforce the idea of not getting discouraged. Keep up with the training . . . 3 classes is barely a beginning. Sometimes progress is very slow and at other times it's like a sudden leap forward. Try to stay positive . . . the dogs are always reading our posture and tone of voice. I found it helpful to walk Zoe on the sidewalks in town in the late afternoon when there were lots of other people about, some with dogs. Another thing I've found very helpful is to observe, whenever you have the opportunity, how people with well trained dogs handle and work with those dogs.


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> Oh no! I didn't do that!


Didn't do what....I'm not following.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Why would we bother to retake the CGC?


as it was stated on their website and I bolded that sentence, "temperament and behavior can change overtime". 

Also a dog that was exercised before the test in order to tire him/her out and make him/her more responsive to you like most young pups that take this test is not a representation of that pup's behavior on a daily basis.

One week my pup is excellent and the next day it is like it is all new to her. Yesterday, even though she knew that she is not allowed in the cow field she decided she was going to enjoy the a little cow poop. I called her back, she took one more bite and she came to me. I could not scold her because she came back but that extra bite of cow poop was not acceptable. But I would expect that from a 10 month old pup; actually I would have expected her not to come until she finished the "desert" especially since she was off leash and I had no way of reinforcing my command. She probably wouldn't have come immediately if it was deer poop - the ultimate creme a la creme.


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Bentley won't be taking his test until I feel we are both 100%. If that means he's 1 yr old great, if it means he's 3 yrs old that's fine too. For me it's not about passing the test as much as it's about learning and practicing proper behavior at all times.
There is no doubt in my mind that neither of us will be ready to take a test when we finish this advanced course. I plan on keeping him in classes for quite awhile. All of my dogs continue to be trained throughout their lives, some in class some simply with me at home but for us training and a structured class is important. 
Passing a test to say we passed isn't something I'm interested in doing.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> as it was stated on their website and I bolded that sentence, "temperament and behavior can change overtime".
> 
> Also a dog that was exercised before the test in order to tire him/her out and make him/her more responsive to you like most young pups that take this test is not a representation of that pup's behavior on a daily basis.
> 
> One week my pup is excellent and the next day it is like it is all new to her. Yesterday, even though she knew that she is not allowed in the cow field she decided she was going to enjoy the a little cow poop. I called her back, she took one more bite and she came to me. I could not scold her because she came back but that extra bite of cow poop was not acceptable. But I would expect that from a 10 month old pup; actually I would have expected her not to come until she finished the "desert" especially since she was off leash and I had no way of reinforcing my command. She probably wouldn't have come immediately if it was deer poop - the ultimate creme a la creme.


I'm not sure you read my entire comment. What would be the point of retaking the CGC after passing the TDI? The CGC is just a test of basic manners. It's not as if you're dog is testing to be a service dog. All you need to do is train a dog to not jump or lunge. The obedience portions (loose leash walking, short recall, sit, down and momentary stays are as simple as it gets. Basically puppy kindergarten stuff. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

Charlie is taking the class not so much for the test, as I want him to learn what is taught in that class. It's about manners more than the test for me. Our last dog had no training so I really need guidance on teaching. We've learned so much in the basic class & the more we practice the better he gets. I'm hoping the CGC class will be a great learning experience & if he's ready for & passes the test that will just be a nice bonus.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

If the dog passes the TDI when mature, no I do not see a reason to take the CGC again. I believe that there is an age minimum for that. 
If not I guess you have to look back to the basics and re-take the CGC. Some people though are not concerned about TDI, CD, CDX, UD UDX NA OA etc. 

And that is IMHO the reason you have to have your obedience basics (which you call simple puppy kindergarden) - it is one thing to get the dog to sit/whoa or come at home or in a barn if you can't do that when they see a chicken, cow poop, deer poop a cat or squirrel running by. And the dog has to respond to you at all times regardless of it he is just enough tired up for the test, not tired at all or overly tired.


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

Looks like TDI requires dogs to be at 1 to be tested
http://www.tdi-dog.org/Howtojoin.aspx?page=Testing+Requirements


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

There are many Therapy Dog Organizations and Animal Assisted Organizations who are concerned about TDI because once a dog passes the test the dog is never tested again. Furthermore, these same organizations feel that TDI is a glorified CGC test.
That is why many, including the one I belong to want Pet Partner (formerly Delta Society) registration. Pet Partner's is a more difficult test and the organization requires re-registration every two years for the simple reasons that dog's temperment etc can change over time for whatever reason.


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

Charlie's trainer said that the TDI test is different this year and is less like the CGC than in prior years. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ohiomom9977 (Jul 27, 2012)

rhondas said:


> There are many Therapy Dog Organizations and Animal Assisted Organizations who are concerned about TDI because once a dog passes the test the dog is never tested again. Furthermore, these same organizations feel that TDI is a glorified CGC test.
> That is why many, including the one I belong to want Pet Partner (formerly Delta Society) registration. Pet Partner's is a more difficult test and the organization requires re-registration every two years for the simple reasons that dog's temperment etc can change over time for whatever reason.


The re-testing makes a lot of sense when you account for temperament changes.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Apologies to the OP that this is getting off topic of the CGC test. At first the CGC seems impossible to pass, and as you keep having faith and training the dog, it becomes doable, then easy. It is certainly not easy the first time you take it. For the human side of the partnership not to show too much "test anxiety" is key too. 

There are always inter therapy dog and service dog organization turf wars. TDI is surely the organization most recognized by golden people who are out competing with dogs in various disciplines, and I do think some use it as almost a kind of title. I am not putting a value judgment on that, bc I do a bit myself, although each of my dogs has done therapy visiting, and Copley is actively doing so now. I do not agree that temperament changes over time very much, although behavior might.

Besides the TDI test itself, which is a little harder than the CGC with the liver/cheese "leave it" etc, the vet's paperwork part of it is extensive too. I am not arguing it is an especially hard test- that is in the eye of the beholder, but it is more complex to become certified to evaluate TDI dogs' than CGC. The TDI test was much harder this year than when I first took it btw. 

I have heard people prefer other organizations, but I have no experience with them. We work lots with various service dog organizations, and wow do they also vary in quality of program. 

Another interesting test is the ATTS Temperament test, which I took with three of my goldens out of curiosity. They do things like shoot a starter pistol 15 ft behind you, open umbrellas, shake cans of rocks . . . It is an unusual test! I would not recommend it at all for a nervous or shy dog, but it is interesting otherwise with a confident, steady dog. It is more popular with working, herding, and bully breeds. Mine all passed, with Finn at the tiptop because he greeted the Friendly Stranger all wags but became watchful with no aggression and moved his body between me and the Unfriendly Stranger. My other goldens went straight to heel position, to they lost points for not recognizing a threat.

Description of the Temperament Test
The ATTS Temperament Test focuses on and measures different aspects of temperament such as stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness as well as the dog’s instinct for protectiveness towards its handler and/or self-preservation in the face of a threat.

The test simulates a casual walk through a park or neighborhood where everyday life situations are encountered. During this walk, the dog experiences visual, auditory and tactile stimuli. Neutral, friendly and threatening situations are encountered, calling into play the dog’s ability to distinguish between non-threatening situations and those calling for watchful and protective reactions.

Watch a video of the ATTS Temperament Test

Dogs must be at least 18 months old to enter this test. The test takes about eight to 12 minutes to complete. The dog is on a loose six-foot (6′) lead. The handler is not allowed to talk to the dog, give commands, or give corrections.

Failure on any part of the test is recognized when a dog shows:

Unprovoked aggression
Panic without recovery
Strong avoidance
The ATTS Temperament Test consists of ten subtests divided into five subcategories:


Behavior Toward Strangers
Objective: To measure the dog’s reaction to strangers in a non-threatening situation.

Subtest 1: Neutral stranger
A stranger to the dog approaches the handler, shakes hands with the handler and engages the handler in a brief conversation, ignoring the dog.
The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog’s reaction to passive socialization and the dog’s protective instinct.

Subtest 2: Friendly stranger
A stranger to the dog approaches happily and briskly, is very friendly to the dog and pets the dog.
The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog’s active social skills.

Reaction to Auditory Stimuli
Objective: To measure the dog’s reaction to auditory stimuli and the dog’s investigative behavior.

Subtest 3: Hidden Noise
The handler/dog team approaches a hidden assistant who rattles a metal bucket filled with rocks and sets this bucket in the path of the team. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the bucket only when asked to do so. The handler’s focus must be on the bucket, not on the dog.
The purpose of this subtest is to test alertness and curiosity.

Subtest 4: Gunshots
The handler stops at a designated marker with his/her back towards a well hidden assistant. The assistant fires three shots using a .22 caliber starter pistol (SHOT-PAUSE-SHOT-SHOT).
The purpose of this subtest is to measure the dog’s recovery response to a sudden noise.

Reaction to Visual Stimulus
Objective: To measure the dog’s reaction to a sudden visual stimulus.

Subtest 5: Umbrella
The handler/dog team approaches an assistant sitting in a chair holding a closed umbrella parallel to the ground at a 90 degree angle to the approaching team. When the dog is five feet from the assistant, the umbrella is opened. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the umbrella only when asked to do so. The handler’s focus must be on the umbrella, not on the dog.

Tactile Stimuli
Objective: To measure the dog’s reaction to unusual footing.

Subtest 6: Plastic Footing
Both the handler and the dog walk the entire length of a 15-foot by 6-foot clear plastic strip.

Subtest 7: Wire Footing
Only the dog will walk the entire length of a 12-foot by 3-foot unfolded exercise pen.

The purpose of these subtests is to measure the dog’s sensitivity to unusual footing, its ability to recover from the fear of unusual footing and to measure its investigative behavior to the unusual footing.

Self Protective/Aggressive Behavior
Objective: These tests collectively evaluate the dog’s capacity to recognize an unusual situation, its threshold to provocation, its protective instincts, and its propensity to realize when the situation becomes a threat.

Subtest 8: Non-Threatening
The handler/dog team stops at the designated marker. A weirdly-dressed stranger crosses the path 38 feet in front of the team.
The purpose of this subtest is to test the dog’s alertness to an unusual situation.

Subtest 9: Threatening
The weird stranger advances 10 feet towards the stationary handler in a threatening manner.
The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog’s ability to recognize when an unusual situation turns into a provocation.

Subtest 10: Aggression
The weird stranger advances to within 18 feet of the stationary handler in an aggressive manner.
The purpose of this subtest is to evaluate the dog’s protective instincts.

The stranger is never closer than 10 feet from the dog. The handler’s 2 foot arm and the 6′ lead is added in for a total of 18 feet. Aggression here is checked against the breed standard and the dog’s training. A schutzhund trained dog lunging at the stranger is allowed, but if an untrained Siberian husky does the same, it may fail.


----------



## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

I wish I was a little better at quoting and pasting them into my replies right now because I want to thank a whole lot of people for their encouragement and info.

1) Tippykayak - I love it that you reminded me that classes are optimal places to get good practice. That's what I enrolled us for in the first place. I knew we needed more practice and exposure. Somewhere along the line I began to stress about the test and that's what led to us both being tired and overwhelmed. 

2) Solinvictus - Thanks for reminding me that classes are for fun. I have to admit I was stressed last evening and I knew Maizie was when she was just totally shutting down. I felt bad for her but we were both caught in the current. I really appreciate the idea of going to the next class with the idea of meeting someone who might be interested in meeting up other times for a little extra practice. Great idea! You reminded me to give ourselves a pat on the back for trying. 

3) Nairb - We did warm up too much. I know that now. It makes a lot of sense that a solid sit and stay will go a long way toward getting us past many of the tasks on the test - or in everyday life - so I'll look at those with a new perspective. And I love the idea that my hands can smell like hot dogs. I remember thinking last night that one of the other handlers hands looked like they'd had chicken rubbed on them!!! LOL!

4) Ljilly28 - That's good info to know that I can look at my dog instead of the person we are meeting in class. I didn't realize that and I'm sure that will help.

5) Claudia M - Good reminder that training is just a part of life and we need to train in general, rather than just the 10 items on the test.

6) Bentley's mom - I LOVE the In Training Halter! Great idea!!

7) Mercy's Mom - They do take patience, don't they? I have to admit, I was irritated last night when she wouldn't look at me. Probably irritated more with myself in a way because I knew I was the one that got Maizie so stressed. Good luck with your Mercy!

8) The Z's - Thanks for reminding me to stay positive and have patience.  

As for the discussion about ages dogs pass the CGC -- I found the comments interesting that explained why a younger dog might pass when one during the adolescent years might not. I was thinking some people must have wonder dogs to pass at five or six months. I mean no offense to anyone who's dog has done that - I've always applauded that anyone can do that. 

Also, I wasn't trying to get Maizie to pass the test just to be passing it. We really did go into the class thinking it would be good practice for her. Eventually I would like to get a therapy dog certification for her so we can go to nursing homes, so last evening after we bombed the test I was seriously doubting that was a sane idea!!! We live in a rural area and that class was just what happened to be available at the time. 

Thank you all for taking the time to give me some ideas. We had a good night's rest, got a new perspective from those on the forum, and we're good to go again! Onward to another class:wavey:


----------



## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Good luck, have fun with the training. In my mind the test isn't the destination, the training is. If either of us aren't having fun in training than neither of us are learning.
I think of training my dog in terms of teaching my toddlers (ions ago ) some days their attention span is there and some days it's not but if you keep it fun learning just happens.

If I feel myself getting uptight I immediately stop the training session because our dogs can read us like a book. Life is a journey and my dogs are along for the great ride. I have to keep it fun for all.
You'll be great, don't over think it. That will just hurt your brain


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> If the dog passes the TDI when mature, no I do not see a reason to take the CGC again. I believe that there is an age minimum for that.
> If not I guess you have to look back to the basics and re-take the CGC. Some people though are not concerned about TDI, CD, CDX, UD UDX NA OA etc.
> 
> And that is IMHO the reason you have to have your obedience basics (which you call simple puppy kindergarden) - it is one thing to get the dog to sit/whoa or come at home or in a barn if you can't do that when they see a chicken, cow poop, deer poop a cat or squirrel running by. And the dog has to respond to you at all times regardless of it he is just enough tired up for the test, not tired at all or overly tired.


I called it "puppy kindergarten," because that was the name of the class where those skills were learned. The level of proficiency needed to pass the CGC test is minimal. It's mostly about manners. Sorry if Rose won't stay away from the cow poop, but that's not what the test is about. 

You pick some interesting battles.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

If your ultimate goal is therapy work, be aware that not all therapy organizations require the CGC. Our group administers their own test, which is quite similar to the CGC, and we have to be recertified every three years.


----------



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Ohiomom9977 said:


> Didn't do what....I'm not following.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Aw man! I misread your post!:doh: You had said you had thought of taking a break in between classes. I did not read the second part of the sentence stating that you still kept going anyway.  Right after finishing Basic at Mount Vernon Dog Training Club, I took Mercy to a CGC prep course at another place.


----------



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> as it was stated on their website and I bolded that sentence, "temperament and behavior can change overtime".
> 
> Also a dog that was exercised before the test in order to tire him/her out and make him/her more responsive to you like most young pups that take this test is not a representation of that pup's behavior on a daily basis.
> 
> One week my pup is excellent and the next day it is like it is all new to her. Yesterday, even though she knew that she is not allowed in the cow field she decided she was going to enjoy the a little cow poop. I called her back, she took one more bite and she came to me. I could not scold her because she came back but that extra bite of cow poop was not acceptable. But I would expect that from a 10 month old pup; actually I would have expected her not to come until she finished the "desert" especially since she was off leash and I had no way of reinforcing my command. She probably wouldn't have come immediately if it was deer poop - the ultimate creme a la creme.


I took and passed the CGC twice with my last dog, Coal. I got his first CGC in 1998. The second I got in 2001 because I lost the first certificate.


----------



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Bentleysmom said:


> Bentley won't be taking his test until I feel we are both 100%. If that means he's 1 yr old great, if it means he's 3 yrs old that's fine too. For me it's not about passing the test as much as it's about learning and practicing proper behavior at all times.
> There is no doubt in my mind that neither of us will be ready to take a test when we finish this advanced course. I plan on keeping him in classes for quite awhile. All of my dogs continue to be trained throughout their lives, some in class some simply with me at home but for us training and a structured class is important.
> Passing a test to say we passed isn't something I'm interested in doing.


I'd like to keep taking classes with Mercy too. I am aiming towards her therapy dog certification. I already knew before I bought my puppy, that it might be a long road before she is certified to be a therapy dog. My husband says I have to slow things down a bit so I can spend more time with my family. I can certainly respect that. After the PetSmart intermediate class, I plan to take a month long break especially since our wedding anniversary is in May. I might be taking Mercy to Stafford Dog Club, where they offer Novice classes in late May. I was planning on taking a CGC test in the summer, but only if I am confident we are 100% as well.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

MercyMom said:


> I'd like to keep taking classes with Mercy too. I am aiming towards her therapy dog certification. I already knew before I bought my puppy, that it might be a long road before she is certified to be a therapy dog.* My husband says I have to slow things down a bit so I can spend more time with my family.* I can certainly respect that. After the PetSmart intermediate class, I plan to take a month long break especially since our wedding anniversary is in May. I might be taking Mercy to Stafford Dog Club, where they offer Novice classes in late May. I was planning on taking a CGC test in the summer, but only if I am confident we are 100% as well.


I'm going to be a brat and point out that attending one 45 minute to 2 hour class a week with your dog shouldn't be a big deal to your husband. The soonest a guy said any cwap like that to me, I'd be looking into stuff _he_ enjoys doing, which gives HIM a break from the daily grind, and start telling him he should slow it down. heehee.  

If you take a month off attending classes, don't take a month off training her. From what you describe in other posts, Mercy needs regular daily training sessions and a regular routine. With some dogs they thrive on this special time with their people.

And going to a dog club vs petsmart is a _great_ idea.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Nairb said:


> I called it "puppy kindergarten," because that was the name of the class where those skills were learned. The level of proficiency needed to pass the CGC test is minimal. It's mostly about manners. Sorry if Rose won't stay away from the cow poop, but that's not what the test is about.
> 
> You pick some interesting battles.


Yes, interesting indeed, those simple kindergarden tasks such as do not chase the chicken or the bird until I say it is OK, do not eat the poop no matter how delicious it tastes because I said so and not because you will get zinged, come when called no matter of distraction are quite basic. While interesting both cow and deer poop are quite delicious for your dog, even sweet Bella may try a bite or too if not roll into it with complete delight.  I would say the alpaca poop would come in third on Rose's scale. 

If I remember correctly someone posted how she could not take the dogs hiking for fear the dogs will chase the neighbor's chickens. Also I believe you mentioned that you had to tire Bella before the test; if the dog can perform such simple minimal tasks and manners why the need to tire them and why the need to smell like a hotdog? 

As Bentleysmom said it does not matter what age they pass, what matters is the training behind the dog and the confidence that they can perform the test in whatever environment and at every time of the day.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Yes, interesting indeed, those simple kindergarden tasks such as do not chase the chicken or the bird until I say it is OK, do not eat the poop no matter how delicious it tastes because I said so and not because you will get zinged, come when called no matter of distraction are quite basic. While interesting both cow and deer poop are quite delicious for your dog, even sweet Bella may try a bite or too if not roll into it with complete delight.  I would say the alpaca poop would come in third on Rose's scale.
> 
> If I remember correctly someone posted how she could not take the dogs hiking for fear the dogs will chase the neighbor's chickens. Also I believe you mentioned that you had to tire Bella before the test; if the dog can perform such simple minimal tasks and manners why the need to tire them and why the need to smell like a hotdog?
> 
> As Bentleysmom said it does not matter what age they pass, what matters is the training behind the dog and the confidence that they can perform the test in whatever environment and at every time of the day.


Lets see....

Since Bella's 12 week B'day....Just turned 11 months old.

Puppy Kindergarten - 6 weeks
Beginning Obedience - 8 weeks (First place at graduation)
Intermediate Obedience - 8 weeks (First place at graduation)
CGC Class - 3 weeks (Passed test easily)
Novice obedience class (5 weeks so far. Preparing for future competition)

I think I've provided plenty of evidence of our progress through photos and videos. I've yet to see anything from you other than a bunch of talk and condescension.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Since I have quite a few things to mention of what I did *not* do with Rose I think they better remain unsaid. 
I do enjoy my little accomplishments like stopping her from chasing the deer, the cat, the alpacas, the chickens and yes, dropping that delicious poop and coming back to me. I do have a new challenge lately and that is the birds. When she gets into the mode of watching them nothing will phase her. She does not chase them but my gosh does she like watching them.

PS - I personally do find condescending calling a test that he OP's dog just failed as minimal, simple puppy kindergarden stuff.


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> Since I have quite a few things to mention of what I did *not* do with Rose I think they better remain unsaid.
> I do enjoy my little accomplishments like stopping her from chasing the deer, the cat, the alpacas, the chickens and yes, dropping that delicious poop and coming back to me. I do have a new challenge lately and that is the birds. When she gets into the mode of watching them nothing will phase her. She does not chase them but my gosh does she like watching them.


And now we're officially off topic from the OP's question about CGC testing...

To the OP, as others have stated keep training & have fun. If you see your dog "melting" stop the test/training & regroup. I'm working on prepping my 12 yr old rescue for the CGC eval. Loose leash walking & the separation are our hurdles.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Since I have quite a few things to mention of what I did *not* do with Rose I think they better remain unsaid.
> I do enjoy my little accomplishments like stopping her from chasing the deer, the cat, the alpacas, the chickens and yes, dropping that delicious poop and coming back to me. I do have a new challenge lately and that is the birds. When she gets into the mode of watching them nothing will phase her. She does not chase them but my gosh does she like watching them.
> 
> PS - I personally do find condescending calling a test that he OP's dog just failed as minimal, simple puppy kindergarden stuff.


Sit on command, down on command, 15' recall on a long line, down or sit/stay for about 10 seconds. Pretty basic stuff. Have you ever watched a video of one of these tests? 

As I stated earlier, the test is not easy, but it's not because of any of the above exercises. If a dog has limited self control, tired or not, he/she probably won't pass.

The reason I doubted whether Bella would pass the test, is because she was acting up in class the week prior. Turns out she was in extreme discomfort from a massive hair ball that she threw up less than two days later. After a little recovery time, she was fine. 

Sorry you don't believe in tests and titles. Others use them as a way to validate their training and as a means of goal setting.


----------



## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

The CGC is just a start. Passing the test is in no way an indication that you have a well-mannered dog. If only every time you need to call your dog back they are already in a sit or down watching you. Wouldn't that be nice. But, the test _is_ an indication that you're trying to raise a polite dog, so kudos to you. 

Enjoy training with your dog. I love training and I love bonding with my baby girl. Don't worry too much about passing the test. You will get there.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Oh I believe in tests and titles when the dog is ready. I just don't believe in putting down the OP.


----------



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Oh I believe in tests and titles when the dog is ready. I just don't believe in putting down the OP.


You really are a piece of work.

I (and others) actually gave what I thought was helpful advice to the OP. You basically showed up to try to discredit the test, and say puppies shouldn't take it.

With that, I'm out of this thread. Good luck with Rose.


----------



## Mom of Maizie (Nov 11, 2011)

Thanks to all who have responded. 

I most definitely have had my perspective about the CGC test expanded and I appreciate that. We are going to continue classes when the next obedience class starts the beginning of May. I don't know if we'll take the test after that class or not. Somehow it's importance for me has changed some over the course of this discussion. As I said before, I just want others to appreciate all the good things about Maizie that we see when she's calm here at home. For that she needs continued training, time, and for us to enjoy the journey. CGC after her name isn't going to mean beans to most people.

And for now... How do I love Thee, Maizie??? Let me count the ways...
I love the way you're eyebrows wiggle around,
I love the way you drool when you know I'm fixing your dinner,
I love the way you curl up in you're dad's recliner,
I love the way you nap in the shade,
I love the way you woof and sound like you're saying yes,
I love the way you balance a little marshmallow on your nose,
I love so much about you I'm going to remember it the next time we are in a class !!!


----------



## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I must say...I just read Ljillies response with the elaboration on that test she did with her dogs. Tess could never, ever do that. While she is a wonder in the hospital, with all the moving computers, the men who clean the floor with big machines, the patients attached to all kind of machines who sometimes even look like aliens...she does all that like a pro. Careful at first, maybe a bit hesitant, but always ready to investigate further. But yesterday we had an angry lady in the lobby who suddenly started popping balloons, making a lot of noise. Tess was behind me in a flash. Guess that shows who protects who...so for us, the Pet Partnertest every two years is as far as we go. Maybe with Liza.....

And good luck! Taking classes together for me is the best way to end a day!


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

" for us to enjoy the journey"

I love this when we choose to own our dogs we are given such a fantastic and wonderful gift that has a finite time to it. Enjoy that journey and celebrate all those things that make Maizie endearing to you. IMO, training is a life long process our goals during that time may change and head us up a different path but the training brings us so much closer to our dogs. If we are going to be doing it through out their lives we should both be having fun doing it. 

I loved your post.


----------



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Megora said:


> I'm going to be a brat and point out that attending one 45 minute to 2 hour class a week with your dog shouldn't be a big deal to your husband. The soonest a guy said any cwap like that to me, I'd be looking into stuff _he_ enjoys doing, which gives HIM a break from the daily grind, and start telling him he should slow it down. heehee.
> 
> If you take a month off attending classes, don't take a month off training her. From what you describe in other posts, Mercy needs regular daily training sessions and a regular routine. With some dogs they thrive on this special time with their people.
> 
> And going to a dog club vs petsmart is a _great_ idea.


I actually did have my husband take Basic classes with Mercy in January and February with the same trainer I am now taking intermediate classes with.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-pictures/137778-mercy-daddy-human.html

I do practice with her almost every time we go for a walk. 

When I volunteered as an steward this past Saturday at my local GRC's Specialty Obedience Trial, one woman who competed in obedience who lives in Manassas told me that she takes her dog to Colonial K9, over an hour's drive away. She admits that where we live in Manassas, there are a shortage of AKC stycle classes. I may consider going to Colonial K9.


----------



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I like what I see about Stafford Dog Club. It is 10 min closer and 10 miles closer than Colonial K9. There prices are more reasonable since you get the option to join their club. Neither Colonial K9 or Stafford Dog club are AKC clubs, but they both teach CGC prep and Therapy Dog prep courses.


----------

