# Incidence of hemangiosarcoma in a line



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

First you have to be realistic. A Golden that is 12+ years old is an OLD Golden Retriever. A dog developing hemangio at 6 is not the same thing as a dog that develops it at 12 1/2. 

We tend to spay/neuter everything on four legs, and that does have negative implications where hemangio is concerned. Golden Retrievers have always had an average life expectancy of something between 10 and 15 years. Has it really changed significantly from that historical range? If you factor in an adjustment for the spay/neuter factor, I don't believe that things are significantly different from the breeds historical life expectancy. 

Golden Retrievers are NOT small breed dogs and they are not as a breed going to live in the 15 to 20 year range as smaller dogs do. Once in a while one rare individual does but it is the exception, not the rule. 

You're best chance in finding a long lived Golden is looking at the health and longevity of the ancestors with emphasis on overall health. The little nagging issues take their toll on a dog over the long term.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh, I agree, I was blessed that my Sam lived to be 12 1/2 years old, no disputing that. 

I am more afraid when I see 10 years and worse the scary 8 years and younger, I know 10 years is still up there, but since I just lost my baby, bear with me......I was not ready to lose him.....

All three of my golden boys were left intact............

I never had my boys roam, breed, unsupervised, never had an aggression issue with any of them, I consider myself a responsible pet owner.... and I hope this will not bite me in the butt when I am actively looking for another golden baby. 

I have read the article about early spay/neuter and the problems. One vet told me not to neuter Toby and that is what I went with and I don't regret it. 

One vet once told me, we see more cancer popping up in dogs, because they live longer, we have more means to make them live longer. 

I do agree, I don't think the life expectancy has significantly changed for the average Golden Retriever over the years, but I do think the rate of cancer is increasing. But that is just my opinion. 

Thank you for your reply, much appreciated.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I thought there was a study about this proposed or being conducted regarding hemangio in the lines, but I don't have any sources. Maybe someone else knows about it? There is some research going on regarding hemangio because we sent blood samples from our Barkley to it for analysis- but that study did not require a pedigree to participate so I don't think it will reveal much about certain lines having a great risk of hemangio. 

I hope that when you do bring a puppy home you will consider enrolling him/her in the GR Lifetime Study by the Morris Foundation. It's my understanding they are tracking many things that might shed some light on the overall health of GRs and the cancer risks/causes/incidents. It may not help the current generation of puppies and Goldens, but it will certainly help future generations with the findings. 

I remember reading a thread on here awhile back about lymphoma being detected in a line of Goldens.

I hope they find answers, having lost two already to this wicked disease. We were fortunate that ours lived to almost 13 years (shy one month to the date) and 13 1/2 years of age.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think I'm really more concerned when I see lymphoma and bone cancer behind a prospective litter. And it is something I would seriously discuss with the breeder and really get their feedback. 

Hemangio.... I think you have to be realistic. I lost 2 treasured goldens from hemangio within a 1.5 year span. The one was intact still, the other had been neutered at 10. The one who was neutered - it was an emergency neuter because of a ruptured (benign, ) tumor on the scrotum (sack part, they checked everything out with testicular cancer in mind, but it all came back as basically a fatty tumor). 

When goldens get up in age - even at 10 - they have all kinds of crazy tumors all over the outside of their bodies. It would be miraculous if there wasn't similar stuff going on inside of them. 

For a young dog to have tumors and forms of cancer - that's a bit more of a flag for me, especially if you have lines that are known to have a lot of dogs with these forms of cancer behind them. That's what I would be discussing with breeders. Keep in mind they should know a lot more about the dogs behind their litters than what is shown on K9data.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks Anne, thanks Kate.

I think I made my question a bit unclear. Yes, I was primarily talking about hemangiosarcoma chances but I was thinking more along the line of reading the age of grandparents and great grandparents dying from it, if it is listed on K-9 data and especially if those were under age 8. How much of an impact do they have on the current litter? Do they have any impact at all? 

Of course, I am concerned with any incidences of any cancer in any of the relatives, especially those that get it early in life. But like you said, that is something to ask a breeder or hoping the breeder will be honest about those and tell you about it, if it is not on K-9 data. 

I guess my question goes back to longevity. I have been reading other posts here on the forum of longevity over the past hour or so and it was very informative. I see there are a lot of people with the same question.

I guess I just wanted to know how much the health and cause of death of grandparents and great grandparents come into play when deciding on a pup. Should it matter, should it be disregarded? 
Earlier I was looking at the pedigree of a bitch whose great grandparents both died of hemangiosarcoma at age 8 and 7. Is that a red flag or nothing to worry about?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

It just really is a toss up....

If you see a lot of dogs behind a litter listed on K9data who apparently were shortlived, you have something to be concerned about. But remember that not all people list death dates or cause of death on K9data. They just don't. 

Beyond that... I guess here's something to think about...

Sammy outlived both of his parents at 13 (and 9 months). His dad died at 10 from unspecified causes. His mom died when she was 9, it apparently was heart related, because never woke up from a minor teeth cleaning. 

Danny was pushing 13 when he died.... both his parents lived to be 15 and died from "old age" (probably cancer, but breeder chose not to put that in there).

Jacks of course has a lot of Gold Rush behind him, and I don't know what's going on with his parents (they both are retired and living in pet homes). I just know both are still alive and well. His mom is almost 8, his dad is almost 11. I'm hoping Jacks lives into his senior years without any problem. I'm just not looking at any of those Gold Rush threads.  

And Bertie is the same way.... and I'm not going to say why, because some people are touchy about some dogs behind him and apparently threaten lawsuits at the drop of hat.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

At this point I don't think we have scientific and established answers to whether you should be concerned with ancestors dying young from hemangio. Until the causes and risk factors for the disease are discovered I think it's pretty much a crap shoot what happens with your puppy. I wish it weren't.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I wish I could explain this better, but I can't.

The neuromuscular specialist (human) that I go to heads up a very large University teaching hospital neurology department. He is brilliant. He also has had Goldens.

He explained to me (in terms that I sort of understood at the time but can't explain) that if an organism, such as the golden retrievers, is prone to hemangiosarcoma (which he lost his to), they must by definition be equally prone to lymphoma and osteosarcoma. It has something to do with the DNA but I can't tell you what.

Then by definition they are not as prone to other cancers such as the urinary tract ones or gastro-intestinal ones that other breeds are prone to. 

I wish I could remember/explain what he told me. But it made sense, and those are, in fact, the big 3 for Goldens.




Megora said:


> I think I'm really more concerned when I see lymphoma and bone cancer behind a prospective litter. And it is something I would seriously discuss with the breeder and really get their feedback.
> 
> Hemangio.... I think you have to be realistic. I lost 2 treasured goldens from hemangio within a 1.5 year span. The one was intact still, the other had been neutered at 10. The one who was neutered - it was an emergency neuter because of a ruptured (benign, ) tumor on the scrotum (sack part, they checked everything out with testicular cancer in mind, but it all came back as basically a fatty tumor).
> 
> ...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> We tend to spay/neuter everything on four legs, and that does have negative implications where hemangio is concerned. Golden Retrievers have always had an average life expectancy of something between 10 and 15 years. Has it really changed significantly from that historical range? If you factor in an adjustment for the spay/neuter factor, I don't believe that things are significantly different from the breeds historical life expectancy.


I really agree with the overall gist of your post, but I don't think there's data out there that really suggests that spay/neuter practices have a substantial effect on age of onset of hemangiosarcoma or overall rates. There have been some interesting small-scale observations about a potential relationship, and I think it's worth being cautious at this point, but overall longevity doesn't seem to have shifted much in the last few decades, even though spay/neuter rates are certainly up.

There's very little data out there to suggest that dogs spayed or neutered after 6 months have significantly lower overall longevity than dogs who are left intact longer or permanently. In fact, a lot of the data still points to the opposite for whatever reason: spayed/neutered dogs seem to live longer. You can explain that, though because the majority of pet owners who give excellent vet care also spay and neuter, which would shift the rates even if leaving dogs intact was slightly better for their health.

Anyway, I really agree that we aren't seeing major changes in overall breed longevity. They live about as long as other breeds their size. I think a huge portion of the anecdotal rise in cancer rates simply has to do with diagnosis and reporting.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Barb, that is interesting!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> I wish I could explain this better, but I can't.
> 
> The neuromuscular specialist (human) that I go to heads up a very large University teaching hospital neurology department. He is brilliant. He also has had Goldens.
> 
> ...


It makes sense.... I just wish I didn't have to think about something like this.  

Hemangio - since I've gone through it twice, doesn't scare me. Lymphoma and bone cancer DO scare me, especially since they seem to occur with younger dogs. I thought they were both still relatively rare - especially when compared to other breeds (Bernese MD's, etc)....?


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Tippy: Well, I guess I am one of those few people that have had intact Goldens and gave them excellent care and vet care  BTW, my lab mix and my dachshund were neutered at 12 months.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

cgriffin said:


> Well, I guess I am one of those few people that have had intact Goldens and gave them excellent care and vet care  BTW, my lab mix and my dachshund were neutered at 12 months.


Same here too.... even though apparently leaving a dog intact indicates you are not as good a dog owner as those who neuter them....? :uhoh:

A new receptionist at the vet asked me if I had ever been there before, and the other receptionists laughed at her.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Lol, I think I made my vet a rich man


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The last repro meeting I went to given by Dr. Hutchinson was interesting. He said at birth bitches have a longevity advantage over dogs. If the bitch is spayed before four years then she no longer has a longevity advantage over the male pups. My golden family is then an exception? Lost the first one spayed at six months to splenic hemangio at 12.5 years. The second one spayed at four years to cardiac hemangio at almost twelve. And the last one spayed at 5or six years to? At 11.5 years.... So in my case the longest one of my girls went unspayed, the shortest her life was....


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Odd and interesting!


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Anyway, my questions were not really regarding the early spay/neuter debate. 

I just plain old want to know if there are several ancestors in a line, a pedigree that have died of hemangiosarcoma, are the newer generations more prone to getting hemangiosarcoma? It is something that might be passed on? Does it make a difference if ancestors are line bred, are they more prone to cancers? Does it make a difference if the ancestors with the cancer were old when they died or younger when it comes to possibly passing it down the line?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have seen hemangio be prominent in a line, the devil you are waiting for, and pups die early to other cancers(lymphoma, osteo). My golden who has lived the longest, spayed the youngest had a mom who died at seven... She had brothers die at nine from brain cancer... A grandma who died at 13 from mast cell tumor. My second golden had parents that were 13/14 when they died, from what... It is not on k9 data. She did not live until 12, but I euthanized a brother who had fibrosarcoma who died at 14 years. My dad just retired at 87 years. He has done cancer research my entire life... If he had an answer, I would respect it. In that vein, if you have a dog with cancer, consider sending samples to the Modiano or Breen labs!! And help make a difference ......


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

cgriffin said:


> Tippy: Well, I guess I am one of those few people that have had intact Goldens and gave them excellent care and vet care  BTW, my lab mix and my dachshund were neutered at 12 months.


 I think vet care and responsible neutering are probably above average in the breed, since they tend to be family dogs. And I have no doubt that all of your dogs got the absolute best care possible from the moment you took charge until the moment you told them "good dog" and let them go. I know I've done the same.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

cgriffin said:


> Anyway, my questions were not really regarding the early spay/neuter debate.
> 
> I just plain old want to know if there are several ancestors in a line, a pedigree that have died of hemangiosarcoma, are the newer generations more prone to getting hemangiosarcoma? It is something that might be passed on? Does it make a difference if ancestors are line bred, are they more prone to cancers? Does it make a difference if the ancestors with the cancer were old when they died or younger when it comes to possibly passing it down the line?


My understanding is that no, a handful of dogs do not represent a statistically significant grouping. These cancers are common enough that simple bad luck could account for a cluster, not an actual increase in base risk. Hemangiosarcoma _probably_ has hereditary risk factors, but we don't know what they are, and we don't have a clear way of differentiating bad luck from a real cluster. I think breeders are smart to avoid these apparent clusters, but I don't think they necessarily tell us about real risk.

I do know that I would probably avoid an early cancer cluster, and I define that as a group of dogs who died of the same cancer type before 10 years old. But I have very little confidence that those apparent clusters really tell us about actual hereditary risk factors.

As far as line breeding, it would, by its nature, concentrate hereditary factors, but that could as easily apply to good longevity as bad, so I wouldn't look at line breeding as a problem unless the big contributors to the pedigrees had problems.

That's my take on it, but I feel compelled to add that I'm neither a vet nor a breeder nor a geneticist nor an oncologist.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> Same here too.... even though apparently leaving a dog intact indicates you are not as good a dog owner as those who neuter them....?


Was that directed at me? I tried to be careful to point out that a _majority_ of responsible owners have learned to neuter without saying that it was irresponsible to keep dogs intact. I was just pointing out the correlation between giving high-end healthcare and neutering. The two correlate, but they're not dependent on each other. There are plenty of people who keep their dogs intact and give tiptop healthcare.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

If you haven't already seen it there was some discussion you might find helpful in the thread http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...eder-puppy/150594-advice-topbrass-litter.html

To me hemangio, while horrible, isn't the worst that can happen since the dogs don't suffer over an extended period of time. It's the things where they're in pain and deteriorate over an extended period that I fear the most. It's hard to accept that in most cases we outlive the dogs we love so much.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Thank you, I have been getting a lot of good responses. 

I am not yet at the stage of actually actively looking for a pup, but I want to get as much information as I can on this subject to make an informed decision about our next family member.

Of course, I would dread any type of cancer and I hate the fact that we just don't have our Goldens long enough.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes, my first two Goldens who had hemangio, one cardiac and one splenic, really were ok until the day I euthanized them.... The second one was showing in rally obedience two weeks before she died... And qualified both days in Rally Excellent. She was entered in a show the Sat after she died. She died on a Friday, going for her abdominal ultrasound. She jumped out of my minivan and her spleen let go and she was literally bleeding to death in the parking lot of the referral center. Very quick illnesses...


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

cgriffin said:


> Thank you, I have been getting a lot of good responses.
> 
> I am not yet at the stage of actually actively looking for a pup, but I want to get as much information as I can on this subject to make an informed decision about our next family member.


The reason I mentioned the thread is that the OP there had questions about how concerned to be about some things in the pedigree and as I recall there was some informed discussion on the question you raised here.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Thank you. Yes. I just read this thread and it was very informative.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Yes, my first two Goldens who had hemangio, one cardiac and one splenic, really were ok until the day I euthanized them.... The second one was showing in rally obedience two weeks before she died... And qualified both days in Rally Excellent. She was entered in a show the Sat after she died. She died on a Friday, going for her abdominal ultrasound. She jumped out of my minivan and her spleen let go and she was literally bleeding to death in the parking lot of the referral center. Very quick illnesses...


Janice - my vet, whether this is true or not or if I'm even remembering this correctly.... with Danny she somewhat explained that hemangio tumors are very fast growing. And because they (cancer cells) are in the blood vessels or that area, they also spread throughout the body even before the tumors start puffing up and causing symptoms. 

We were trying to figure out what symptoms we might have seen earlier - even months earlier when we were running blood tests and getting him in for xrays and heart scans (he had bronchitis and we had his heart checked out to make sure nothing else was going on). And our vet commented that he may not have had cancer months earlier. Or the tumors may not have been there. 

The only reason we knew he had cancer of the spleen was because the tumor was swollen up big enough to push on things and cause him discomfort. And that was only in the last 1-2 days of his life. He had no symptoms before then.

Sammy, unfortunately was misdiagnosed as having pancreatitis, otherwise... he wouldn't have had to go through what he did in the last week of his life.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

With Sally, who had cardiac hemangio, we had an inkling one month before we euthanized her...but it was not evident to the specialists until the end. Laney had splenic hemangio. And as a client pointed out to me when she was quickly euthanized, "She only had one bad day."


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I just took a Genetics class this past semester and we talked about cancer in two lectures (pretty brief, but fascinating), and I think what Barb was trying to say about the human oncologist talking about cancer is that it is your genes going out of control, as cells divide, etc. Unfortunately, there won't ever be one "cure" for cancer. Every cancer is different. It deals with several genes being activated (in an inappropriate manner) and those that are shut off, where the cell cycle is disrupted and everything is going lightning speed. 

For one dog, it might be a few genes that are getting "shut off", whereas in another dog that gene is getting turned off, and it cannot control the cell cycle any longer. I think with all the research we have done on cancer, we can hopefully get individual medicine once we know what genes are playing a role in the cancer. Time will tell, that's for sure!


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Christa, I understand your thoughts and concern. I had the same thoughts when I was looking for Luna. We love our dogs so much, and will go through anything to keep them here with us. Fighting cancer with a loved one is the hardest thing to do, and I know I was scared of having to go through that again. Janice gave me some comfort when I expressed my concerns to her. It never hurts to talk with breeders your interested in and express your concerns. It makes me smile to know your thinking of getting another golden pup.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I really agree with the overall gist of your post, but I don't think there's data out there that really suggests that spay/neuter practices have a substantial effect on age of onset of hemangiosarcoma or overall rates. There have been some interesting small-scale observations about a potential relationship, and I think it's worth being cautious at this point, but overall longevity doesn't seem to have shifted much in the last few decades, even though spay/neuter rates are certainly up.
> 
> There's very little data out there to suggest that dogs spayed or neutered after 6 months have significantly lower overall longevity than dogs who are left intact longer or permanently. In fact, a lot of the data still points to the opposite for whatever reason: spayed/neutered dogs seem to live longer. You can explain that, though because the majority of pet owners who give excellent vet care also spay and neuter, which would shift the rates even if leaving dogs intact was slightly better for their health.
> 
> Anyway, I really agree that we aren't seeing major changes in overall breed longevity. They live about as long as other breeds their size. I think a huge portion of the anecdotal rise in cancer rates simply has to do with diagnosis and reporting.


There is actually quite a bit of evidence out there now that supports waiting to spay/neuter or not doing it at all......
Golden retriever study suggests neutering affects dog health :: UC Davis News & Information

The effect of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours in dogs – a systematic review - Beauvais - 2012 - Journal of Small Animal Practice - Wiley Online Library

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19732047

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21835457

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/mar10/100301g.asp

http://www.gpmcf.org/respectovaries.html


There are quite a few others, too. Actually, with the research The Broad Institute has been doing, they have found that the highest incidences of cancer are in dogs that are spay/neutered early in life.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Thank you all for your responses. A lot of interesting points and info. 

When the time comes, I will do my research and hope for the best. 

Yes, hemangiosarcoma is a fast killer and no real symptoms till it is too late, I saw that in all three of my boys. My first boy was not eating well and I made an appointment for him on a Monday and he crashed and died on Sunday prior, my hubby and I were assisting the vet in emergency surgery but our boy did not make it, splenic hemangio. 

My second boy suddenly started moaning, took him to the ER, had DIC plus suspected hemangio, was stabilized, sent home, spend next day at my Vet's office, was released into my care to be brought back the next morning, but he crashed and died almost 2 hours after bringing him home, he died in my arms. He had tumors on his liver and possibly heart, since his heart was enlarged.

Toby had bad arthritis issues which got worse and he got weaker even on pain meds and laser therapy, all this within a few short weeks, and I could not figure out why, even asked the vet if she thinks he has cancer, the answer was NO. The next evening/night he started with labored breathing and moaning, took him to the vet, was told he had pericardial effusion, fluid built up around his abdomen, anemia and was referred to a specialist in Nashville who diagnosed possible cardiac hemangio that had also infiltrated the spleen and liver. He was released home as stable a day later, had him home one day when fluid built back up around the heart and belly, rushed him in, more tests/ultrasounds and having to let him go the next day because he was actively bleeding around his heart and into his lungs from a tumor, no hope. The hardest decision I ever had to make in my life.

So, yes, it is a fast killer but it sure is no picnic for the dogs who die from it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> So, yes, it is a fast killer but it sure is no picnic for the dogs who die from it.


That's pretty much why we acted so quickly when Danny was showing the same restlessness and was off his food... like we noticed in his brother. His spleen had gone from being the shape of a tongue to being melon sized.... probably that day. 

We had him to the vet in the morning for xrays. The dumdum vet on duty said it was gas and gave him a prescription to ease his discomfort with wait-and-see advice. I got home from work and saw him hiding behind a chair and unable to lie down and told my mom it was NOT gas. 

He went in for an ultrasound and within an hour was taken in for surgery. 

He didn't survive the surgery (blood clot).... but yep. We will not wait ever again if it so much as looks or sounds like cancer. We did that with Sam and that was a nightmare. 

Even having surgery.... I don't know if I'd do that again. My mom and I were talking about it afterwards and we wondered what we were thinking putting a 12 year old through that prospective hassle. Recover from surgery for the dogs - is not fun. I read on here about the immune system issues and so forth.... and I don't know if we would have handled all that very well. 

Danny already had minor skin allergy issues (because his coat just did not dry and he wouldn't tolerate a dryer blowing on him), reoccurring ear infections, his hips and elbows were bad because of the arthritis, tumors on his gums, he was going a little senile with small accidents in his sleep... 

But then again - when you are in there and given a decision to have a bright eyed and wagging dog put down because of a tumor, especially knowing he just aced heart scans and blood tests and the ultrasound did not see any other trouble areas besides the spleen.... I just don't know.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hvgoldens4 said:


> There is actually quite a bit of evidence out there now that supports waiting to spay/neuter or not doing it at all......


There's been more stuff published lately, but I think it's still a judgment call about whether it really outweighs the rather large body of previous literature that correlates neutering with longer lives. With more frequent and accurate diagnosis of cancer in the last decade or so, we may continue to see more research that teases out the correlations more precisely.

But as of right now, a lot of these studies are too short in duration and have too small a survey group to really controvert the previous large-scale studies that failed to find a significant negative effect of neutering age on overall longevity.

Also, even if there's a correlation between cancer rates and neutering age, I think the correlation between longevity and neutering is more important. If we do find that girls neutered at 6 months get hemangiosarcoma more often later in life, it still might mean that their lives are actually shorter if other problems shorten their lives instead.

All that said, though, I think you are probably more up to date on the recent research than I am, so I trust your sense of whether the tide has shifted.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Kate, I fully understand.
All the things with Toby happened from labored breathing and moaning on Tuesday night to letting him go on Saturday afternoon. 
He had perfect blood work in January and no outward signs of cancer till that Tuesday. 
It was extremely hard to say goodbye, because he came into the room all alert, wagging ,even walking better and happy to see us. He wanted to go home and I asked the vet also, how can we let him go when he does not seem so sick. But, the vet explained again and we had to be realistic, Toby was dying, he was actively bleeding from a tumor in his heart and he did not have long to live. So, we could either let him die slowly and possibly painfully with his lungs filling up with blood and choking him or make the decision to let him go to sleep, painlessly. We loved him too much to have him suffer and we let him go peacefully, we were both holding on to him, hugging him and telling him that we love him till the end.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

My question on this whole spay/neuter thing is, why do vets push so much for it or get our minds warped into thinking once they hit six months, it's time to do this to them? 

When we first got out dog, we were told just that. Spay her at 6 months...which is what we did. I feel horrible now, knowing that we could have waited until she was two or a little over two, that way she wouldn't pyo. I just don't get why vets push it on us, when they could possibly live longer!


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

As a licensed vet tech,( I am not working now though) I will tell you, the push is because of owner compliance or lack there of on the part of a lot of them, which in turn leads to unwanted litters adding to the overpopulation of dogs and cats ending up in shelters. 

In the vet tech program, the early spay and neuter was drilled into our heads, then the same in most vet clinics I worked in. I was really surprised when a vet told me not to have Toby neutered, that was the first for me, ever. 

I cannot fault the vets though, and I am all for spaying and neutering for the general public, people that are more likely to let their dogs roam, get pregnant. But, a lot of these people are also often not Golden Retriever owners in my experience.

Now, if I had a female Golden, she would be spayed at the later appropriate age. I think with female dogs left intact, the health risks are too great besides I really don't want to deal with heat cycles.
I am just not really running to have a male Golden neutered and I will always get male dogs anyway.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

I can not even imagine how hard it has been going through hemangiosarcoma with 3 boys.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

cgriffin said:


> As a licensed vet tech,( I am not working now though) I will tell you, the push is because of owner compliance or lack there of on the part of a lot of them, which in turn leads to unwanted litters adding to the overpopulation of dogs and cats ending up in shelters.
> 
> In the vet tech program, the early spay and neuter was drilled into our heads, then the same in most vet clinics I worked in. I was really surprised when a vet told me not to have Toby neutered, that was the first for me, ever.
> 
> ...


I'm in a vet tech program, too! I still have a year before I go into that part, but I know I'm going to be very opinionated about the whole spay/neuter thing. : I thought the whole "overpopulation" of dogs thing was a myth so to speak? I thought the numbers have been going down?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

cgriffin said:


> When the time comes, I will do my research and hope for the best.


That is a HUGE part of the problem - being able to truly research these things. While we can hope for all the science in the world to give us the answers if breeders/owners do not disclose what has happened accurately what has/has not transpired with regard to their lines it will still make it a crap shoot. There are so many influential dogs that are common in so many pedigrees that we do not know about it is truly a sin. And rumors and speculation are not good to put one's trust in. While K9Data is a WONDERFUL resource there just is not info to really count on it. JMO


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh, I agree about K-9 data. Just the other day, I was looking up pedigrees of dogs, from the line my Toby came from but also of well known breeders and a lot of dogs did not have a date of death listed - I guess a dog from 1977 is still going strong? lol Also , a lot of COD are missing from dogs that do have their date of passing listed. 
If cancer cannot be predicted and it is not known if it can be passed down the line, then why is it so hard to give a date when the dogs passed and a cause of death?
If I am trying to go by longevity, there are still a lot of gaps in the pedigrees.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

I don't think the overpopulation of unwanted pets has been going down unless it is regional. I think the South is still way behind in their thinking. I can't speak for other states and regions.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

By the way, I am really not speaking of breeders here on the forum when I talk about gaps in pedigrees. The dogs I have looked at and had questions about, where from breeders that are not members here.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

MaddieMagoo said:


> I thought the whole "overpopulation" of dogs thing was a myth so to speak? I thought the numbers have been going down?


Overpopulation is a myth, in the sense that if we truly had a dog overpopulation problem the shelters would be filled with puppies. Truth is they aren't, rather, they are mostly house dogs who are out of puppyhood (thus, most at some point they did have a home). What North America does have is a pet ownership problem.

Also, in North America, there has been a steady increase in importing dogs from other countries to help keep shelters full (Humane Societies are a business, they are responsible for many jobs and need income to pay all the bills etc.). Importation is estimated in be in the tens of thousands in Canada, I can only imagine what the import number could be for the USA. A shelter in Toronto, which has room for 75 dogs, finally admitted that they have a hard time keeping the runs at 30 occupied, so they are now importing.

I am ALL for getting dogs into homes via importing etc., if there is a home for them lets do it. In the next breath, if we are going to do this lets call a spade a spade, there isn't an overpopulation problem.

My two cents ;-)

Cheers
Rob


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Overpopulation of unwanted pets/puppies/kittens is still all too real in my neck of the woods.
Our shelters are full, a lot of pets get euthanized. We have transports of puppies and kittens that go up North, because it is said that up North, there is a puppy and kitten shortage in shelters due to more owner compliance with spaying and neutering.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

We have plenty of dogs in shelters up here, but they tend to be bully breeds or bully mixes, produced by irresponsible people and then abandoned by those who bred them or those who took them on for "protection" or as a status symbol and then abandon them when they grow to be too big a handful.

Any purebreds and non-bully dogs with stable temperaments tend to get snapped right up. A huge number of my dog training friends who rescue have bully mixes because that's what's available and they have the skills to handle and rehabilitate the less desirable shelter dogs.

My friends who have "rescued" purebreds tend to have them imported from other states, and I'm not always convinced that the ~$300 they tend to pay in "rescue feeds" is really anything other than a profit to line the pockets of the individual who's essentially selling the dog.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

If anyone wants to open new thread about early spay/neuter, pets in shelters debate, please feel free to do so. Thank you!

Anyway, when talking about cancers in ancestors, obviously those ancestors were intact, producing sires and dames and don't fall under early spay and neuter problems.

Since we have gone off topic, may I redirect? Thank you!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

In the May Veterinary Practice News, there are comments on the limitations of the UC Davis study on neutering and cancer in Goldens. The limitations include: retrospective study, the study was conducted at a tertiary site, authors did not include any vet oncologists, limited sample size, and that the intact animals were likely breeding stock and therefore screened for health. To directly quote from this article, "This study does not qualify the breeding lines of the animals being reported, and therefore is not as significant as it is made to seem." Later in the article it says that this study found an increase in hemangio and mast cell in females spayed after one year of age....


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

cgriffin said:


> Am I right for thinking this is something in the line and the risk of hemangiosarcoma will be past on to future generations?
> 
> But, I have been doing research on pedigrees of other dogs for the future. I am well aware that Goldens and cancer just seems to go hand in hand. But how much do generations come into play when thinking incidences of cancer or other health concerns?
> 
> ...


These are just my opinions, right or wrong, I do not know...and I can guarantee you will find some breeders that agree with me and some that don't, which is OK as we still have so much to learn about disease and inheritance. There will be several buts and althoughs, which I know is frustrating as it isn't cut and dry.

Yes, just as in human family trees, cancer can be a more 'common' occurrence in a 'family'. The breed average lifespan is around 10-11 years of age (for both American and English style Goldens). Most do make it to this age, several surpass it and several don't make it to that age.

When researching pedigrees the width of the pedigree is just as, if not more, important than the depth. For example, if you see a pedigree where for 4 generations all dogs lived until 12, one would think that is pretty good, however if for 3/4 of that pedigree siblings within those 4 generations didn't make it to 7-8...things aren't looking as bright. Researching the width of a pedigree can be an almost impossible task as not all pet people obtain clearances or input data onto K9Data (understandably so). 

Then there is the 'crap happens' scenario, where for some reason a dog passes early when the majority of the dogs behind and around it lived into a good old age. I lost a boy at 5 1/2 to hemangio, yet the earliest death in his pedigree was just shy of 10 (with most living 11-15 years of age). A dog I bred passed at 6.5 to lymphoma yet she had the same scenario as the boy I mentioned above. Sometimes there is no rhyme nor reason.

When I am researching pedigrees if I see generation after generation of early deaths (for myself, early is anything before 9 years of age), that does cause me to pause. 

This is something I put together as I do get many emails and phone calls from families who have just lost their pet, Goldens, Humans, and age of death. | Ramblings of a Dog Person

Best,
Rob


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Thank you!

I read about an upcoming breeding this fall, not a breeder here on the forum, where the dam's parents both had hemangiosarcoma, one at 8 years old, the other at 7 years old. That breeding makes me nervous. Maybe I am wrong, but I would not take a chance on a pup from that breeding.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Just wanted to add this newly published peer reviewed study to the other studies that I had listed on neutering and cancers........
PLOS ONE: Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers


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## doglegrunning (Jan 15, 2015)

*Hemangio summary from GRCA*

This is an old thread, but sadly still so relevant. This article from the GRCA was super helpful for me. 
http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/hemangio.pdf

Also this one on cancer in goldens in general, written in a way that the general public can relate to. 

http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/cancer.pdf



Dora: deceased 9 months Subaortic Stenosis

Charlie: deceased at 3 years Pulmonary Hypertension


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## Melakat (Oct 9, 2010)

I have read both of those articles before and it is interesting and it does state that taller goldens live shorter lives on average than shorter ones.

My Oakley passed away at just over 8. He was from a litter of 9 boys and they were all big boys (very handsome boys I might add , large boned, tall and all about 90 pounds and not overweight. My Oakley was very well exercised. 

After Oakley passed I called our breeder and 3 of his brothers had also passed away within 6 weeks of each other from Hemangio.

He was our 1st Golden and so I did not look closely at pedigrees before we bought him as we bought him from a reputable breeder. Now that I know about K9 data, I did a bit of research and the COI's were high.

We are getting a new Golden Pup in a couple of weeks and I was looking at Pedigrees with a fine tooth comb and in the end I could not find a line without cancer. At first glance some longevity trees looked great but if I dug deeper there would be a sibling or two that had passed early from a cancer. In the end I did pick a line that one dog had passed from lymphoma at 9.5 (but COI's on litter are low) and I hope I don't worry about that too much and try and just enjoy my new Golden boy! 

But after losing one to Hemangio I believe the big "C" will always haunt me and so in this particular litter one would think there was something genetic going on and yet the 2nd link above pretty much states that there is much more to the story.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

I just went through the same thing with my girl, Lacey. She passsed away at 9.5 from hemangio and it was absolutely awful. I think the thing that makes hemangio worse for owners is that it all happens so fast--but on the plus side, at least Lacey only had one bad day as another poster wrote.

I, too, had a really hard time deciding on my next puppy. I ultimately tried to steer clear of deaths due to lymphoma in particular and tried to focus on longevity. My fingers are crossed that I will have a healthy puppy but I think there's only so much you can actually do. I read all the research, and right now, there just doesn't seem to be enough to predict right now. I just know that I had more peace of mind choosing longevity in the pedigree and buying from a breeder that I felt focused on health and longevity as much as possible. 

I also think that lower COIs within the pedigree seem to lead to more longevity rather than just the COI of the litter on a whole. I saw a lot fewer dogs with low COIs die at a young age than vice versa-although some dogs with high COIs also lived long lives.


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## doglegrunning (Jan 15, 2015)

*coi*

Which things were most important when you reviewed on k9data? My babies both died of cardiovascular problems, not even long enough to develop cancer. Neighbors just lost their 4yr old cream to lymphoma.


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Ideally, I looked for COIs to be as low as possible. They did a study in Standard Poodles-forgive me if I'm off a little on the numbers but I think what they found was on average dogs with a COI of 6.25% lived on average 4 years longer than dogs with a 25% COI. You can find the COI of each dog by clicking on the genetic information link in k9data.

A high COI isn't always bad-it helps cement good traits as well, but lower COIs do seem to generally be a little longer lived. 

Also, make sure they have all of their clearances and they're current-including heart.

I didn't look thoroughly at this link but it looks like it has some good information on COIs:
Low COI For Longer Lives


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## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Here's another with charts: Coefficient of Inbreeding


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