# Difference between training a lab and a golden?



## acolic (May 27, 2020)

-Duplicated posts-


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## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

I've merged your threads and removed the duplicated post.

Also, Bumping up so you can get some replies


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

acolic said:


> Does anyone have any experience in the difference between training a Golden and Labs sent for Hunt or field trials?


There is no difference in training based on breed, they are both retrievers. There are differences in individual dogs of both breeds that require adjustments in training methods.
The important thing is to teach and train the dog you are working with. Don't compete or compare with others in training.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

SRW is right. I train with all labs and have the only Goldens. I have the same expectations of my Goldens that they have of their labs. Just make sure you adapt the training method for the specific dog your working with. My two Goldens are completely different and require different approaches. I’m playing around with my sons lab right now and she’s softer then either of my Goldens.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

I am not an expert trainer, but I have worked with many good professional trainers. From that it has been my observations that "Generally" labs require more pressure when being trained. Of course their are exceptions, this is only something to keep in mind when training a Golden while observing a number of Labs being trained...


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

3goldens2keep said:


> "Generally" labs require more pressure when being trained.


That has been a thought for a very long time when comparing labs and Goldens.
There is usually a sliver of truth to every stereotype. For the most part I maintain that there are larger differences between individual dogs and there are between the two breeds.

Something many field trailers seem to agree on, many of the most sensitive dogs are also the most intelligent. Before the advent of e-collars Sensitive dogs were usually wash outs in field training. They could not take the training pressure, which was often brutal.
The e-collar revolutionized field training. Other tools, methods and the accumulation of knowledge helped of course but the e-collar had the greatest impact by far.

These highly intelligent/sensitive dogs require a much more subtle approach when communicating what you want to teach. The e-collar enables a handler to 'tap a dog on the head' from 400 yards away and say 'no no stop that, you know better'.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I would disagree that Labs need more pressure to TRAIN. Labs can be much higher energy, very boisterous and a bull-in-a-china-shop attitude, which in a high state of arousal, can require a heavy hand to make them decide their handler is more important to pay attention to than their environment. Higher drive innately = more pressure required to redirect and control that drive. However, for this same reason Labs also tend to be more resilient to BAD TRAINING -- they can shake it off more easily than a golden. I see very bad trainers having success with Labs where they would not if their dog was a golden. 
Beyond those observations, each dog is an individual and each can be trained with the same methods, adjusting it to the individual's temperament.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just sharing something I saw at a training class...

This was a couple that I've known for a long time. Lab people. They do everything with their dogs - that's field and obedience. I vaguely know they've done agility as well. Not sure on conformation.

They typically have a zap collar on their dogs - but I've seen that more when the husband is training.

He's more hard handed than she is. I know he's taken his dog(s) further than she has, so it doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad trainer.

Anyway, watching at class - they had a dog bed next to their chairs and the husband wanted the dog to lie down and stay on the bed.

He was very dominant in his approach and hard handed - and the dog was having a meltdown because of it. Basically balked about lying down on the bed and was squeaking and really struggling there.

Wife took the leash and gently told her dog to lie down, and he immediately did without any fuss. Her soft handed and soft approach worked with this dog.

This dog is a 2 year old black lab. I would say working lines - so big lean dog.

My comment to the couple after the dog lay down was, "See, you just had to ask nicely". 

I would say that this is a prime example that you train the dog you have vs lumping all dogs in one category based on breed or pedigree. 

Also - my take as well is you start at a lower level of firmness/correction with a dog and take that up as needed. At least perspective from obedience lalaland.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> I see very bad trainers having success with Labs


I see bad trainers that think they are having success with Labs, but they aren't. A dog that has been in training 3 or 4 years should be well past the Senior hunt test level. 



Megora said:


> Also - my take as well is you start at a lower level of firmness/correction with a dog and take that up as needed.


I would agree but you must be constantly reading your dogs intent. Most will test you. To many low level corrections will turn into nagging and condition the dog to ignore it. 
Blatant disobedience should bet corrected with enough pressure to make your dog think "that wasn't worth it".
You can and should set your dog up to fail, be disobedient, so you can correct in a controlled situation that is black and white to the dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> Blatant disobedience should bet corrected with enough pressure to make your dog think "that wasn't worth it".


Maybe. Depends on the trainer. Have seen more meltdowns with hard-handed trainers who needed to adjust their approach to the dog. 

Those meltdowns are about the same degree of uselessness as a dog who is completely ignoring his nagging soft handed trainer. It's the equivalent of somebody trying to heel a full grown african elephant and getting dragged along....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Maybe. Depends on the trainer. Have seen more meltdowns with hard-handed trainers who needed to adjust their approach to the dog.


I am in no way suggesting hard handed training or over correcting. It is all about communication, too much or too little of either praise or correction will send the wrong message.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Every pro I've spoken with that has a reputation for doing a good job with goldens has told me they don't approach a golden any differently than they do a lab. My golden's working level on an ecollar is higher than most labs I train with. But he'd much rather get a collar correction than get a verbal correction. Each dog is an individual.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

myluckypenny said:


> he'd much rather get a collar correction than get a verbal correction.


So many dogs are like this and people fail to recognize it, thinking the e-collar is always a severe correction. 
I mentioned in another thread many very intelligent dogs are very sensitive. I don't mean soft or even particularly sensitive to the e-collar. They tend to be very perceptive and have a high desire to please the handler. A verbal correction can make these dogs feel that they have failed, shaking their confidence.
An e-collar correction is just a correction, void of emotion. When done properly, a nick from an e-collar should be expected by the dog or at least immediately understood because he is knowingly being disobedient.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

SRW said:


> They tend to be very perceptive and have a high desire to please the handler. A verbal correction can make these dogs feel that they have failed, shaking their confidence.
> An e-collar correction is just a correction, void of emotion.


100% true and both Slater and Brix are perfect examples of this.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Most comments and trainers work with 90% Labs. So comments and advise must be buffered accordingly...


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## acolic (May 27, 2020)

I appreciate all the comments. You’ve given me a lot to think about.

Alex


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I train both a lab and a golden that I own personally for all age field trials. I do not think there is much difference. I believe golden owners tend to believe goldens are so much softer and understanding of their owners. I find that false. In fact, I find goldens to be more stubborn and manipulative than labs. I do not think that either breed needs more pressure than the other. In the past labs were more grunts so to speak but now they are being bred with quite a lot of intelligence because field training has become a sport that really seems to evolved requiring a lot of more finesse. With intelligence comes more "reasoning." Therefore labs can't be trained as easily with brunt force as they once were. They are now more on even thinking level with goldens. Meaning, they are more sensitive to training. I do believe they are more biddable than goldens in field. Goldens seem to have more prey drive and labs seem to have more retrieve drive. IN this way, I feel goldens tend to be more independent in a field with birds than labs. But that is just my general observation based on my area I run in.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> In fact, I find goldens to be more stubborn and manipulative than labs.


Guess that explains the difference between the breeds in obedience.....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Guess that explains the difference between the breeds in obedience.....


What explains the difference between them in field trials?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> What explains the difference between them in field trials?


Eh, no idea, don't really care. It's a dead horse. 

I just was pondering the general statement that goldens are more stubborn and manipulative than labs and comparing that to what I've seen of both breeds in obedience.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I think that goldens in general are manipulative because they are very human intuitive. If they want to do something they gladly do it, positive treats in OB is easy and they happily comply better than most. Labs also can be good at ob but I think goldens read humans slightly better so they are very zippy in the ring side by side with their human. In the field, they have a different mind set. I've watched "show" goldens putter around and do lots of stupid stuff to avoid picking up a bird and I'm not talking about my own, just go to a golden specialty. I've watched field goldens go into prey hunt mode and blow off handlers because they are in pheasant hunting mode instead of training mode. Anyone that runs goldens in the field trial world always admit that the ones most biddable like a lab are the best to train. The ones that have a mind of their own are a pain to train. I used to talk with one of my mentor friends before he passed and we often talked about this exact topic. He truly thought goldens had more prey drive in them it hadn't been bred out therefore field trials were harder for them to be compliant. Most labs are retrieve happy but a lot of that true gut prey drive isn't as present "generally" exceptions 100% of course. We both agreed there was no better breed or anything like that. We were just having an objective conversations and they were always interesting.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I've watched "show" goldens putter around and do lots of stupid stuff to avoid picking up a bird


I have as well and it's almost painful to watch.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Shelby everything you say is absolutely true --- 
nothing is more manipulative than a show golden bitch....uggggg these animals
Even me as you well know is easily manipulated into feeling sorry for my dogs and giving them way too much "benefit of the doubt" when what we both need is a good strong correction!
I would agree though that goldens are more gamey -- and field goldens especially -- and honestly I see this with Jeff's two girls -- if they don't just step on a mark they go feral and put on big unorganized hunts, I think they've turned off their training brain and put on their feral brain and think the best way to find the bird is to cover as much ground as possible in pursuit. They were not taught to mark as young dogs and learned early that if they run around like lunatics they're likely to bump into a bird. Rather than doing the math and realizing the bird can't possibly be 50 yards from the gun so maybe we should circle back toward that guy....
Also remember the article Dave Bo othman cited where dog breeds were compared to like 25 different "wolf traits" -- the more wolf traits each breed displayed the less "domesticated" they were. Goldens had WAY more wolf traits than Labradors....and I believe it especially field goldens!!!!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Labs also can be good at ob but I think goldens read humans slightly better so they are very zippy in the ring side by side with their human.


I've always thought labs have thicker skulls and the handlers have to work extra hard to both motivate and shape what they want with these dogs - but your line here is very interesting to read while comparing what I see with the dogs out there. Most breeds out there are the same - many of them are hunting breeds who I know EXCEL in field. All the pointing breeds, for example. I see very thick skulled dogs. I really like the looks of some of them, but having seen them in obedience - nopes.

Goldens - the thing I've always loved about owning goldens is right from the time they are baby puppies - you can see them not only trying to figure out what to "do to get" rewards and attention, but they also actively compete for their turn at working. It's very difficult to consider giving that up while going to a different breed. Even show goldens are a lot more fun to train and play with... than some other breeds out there. You get all that trainability - in a very affable type dog. They are very soft and sweet. Sometimes too soft. 


Re birds and show goldens - I think you are probably being too kind there. I don't think they have the same prey drive that is bred into working goldens.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> I've always thought labs have thicker skulls and the handlers have to work extra hard to both motivate and shape what they want with these dogs


That is definitely not true of field trial retrievers.



Megora said:


> All the pointing breeds, for example. I see very thick skulled dogs. I really like the looks of some of them, but having seen them in obedience - nopes.


A good friend titled over 80 bird dogs (pointers) in competition. He is now into retriever trials.
I have talked to him about it a fair amount. Bird dog competitions are much more about natural ability. There is training involved but not nearly to the level of a field trial retriever. Obedience not as important so the dogs are not bred for it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> A good friend titled over 80 bird dogs (pointers) in competition. He is now into retriever trials.
> I have talked to him about it a fair amount. Bird dog competitions are much more about natural ability. There is training involved but not nearly to the level of a field trial retriever. Obedience not as important so the dogs are not bred for it.


I can't disagree with that.

Would suspect more breeds fall in the same circle - including labs. 

The traits I want in an obedience dog - are biddability and desire to please... and dogs who are serious-but-flashy workers when they know what their job is. I get that with goldens. Even show line goldens.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

and see this kind of goes back to the manipulation and stubborn stuff in goldens I mentioned earlier. Labradors will gladly work with their human and try even if they are doggie dogs and not as intuitive. They do give that A plus effort though. The thing about what you said about the traits you want in an obedience dog are biddability and desire to please. This is why they do well with the more cushy job of learning obedience but then go stubborn jerks in the field because its not what they were bred (prey drive bred out too much running) to do and want to do. ON the other hand, field goldens love the ring as well but still love the field. I think they have no issues at all being motivated in either venue. BUT in the field they switch that desire to please off when their prey drive takes over. I've yet to meet a field bred golden that doesn't want to train in the field or in any event really as long as they get to train. Also I think that field bred goldens are less moody bitches than show goldens. Labs can get burnt out faster I think too on repetitive training while I find goldens enjoy repetition. Right now I'm training a lab puppy that is just a wonderful dog, he is so human intuitive, actually exceptional, I think the kind of lab Connie would enjoy. So eager and picks it up so fast. Already realizing foot movements on me in heel. Watches me like a hawk. So he really goes against the thick skulled thing. Of course these are field bred labradors.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Right now I'm training a lab puppy that is just a wonderful dog, he is so human intuitive, actually exceptional, I think the kind of lab Connie would enjoy. So eager and picks it up so fast. Already realizing foot movements on me in heel. Watches me like a hawk. So he really goes against the thick skulled thing.


Have seen labs like that.... they exist.  

I just don't believe the breed is like that across the board. 

Everything I've seen of labs - they are clumsy thick-skulled galoots.  Goldens are fancy, gorgeous fairies by comparison (I'm kinda kidding and saying this to trigger SRW a little - but there's a little bit of truth there too as far as what originally attracted me to both competition obedience + this breed). He has a nice looking golden. Many people out there have lost track of what a nice looking golden is - beyond the fact it's their own dog.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

K9-Design said:


> nothing is more manipulative than a show golden bitch....uggggg these animals


This made me laugh, but also, I would not trade mine for anything.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Generalizing any breed is a GROSS mistake! Exceptions are the rule....not the norm.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

3goldens2keep said:


> Generalizing any breed is a GROSS mistake! Exceptions are the rule....not the norm.


Generalizing any thing is pretty bad. I agree. 

BTW - I'm currently humored sitting here and working while my 2 year old is running back and forth with one of his toys. He's throwing his toy into the room I'm in, running in to grab it with flair, pausing to LOOK at me until I look up from my computer and fake like I want his toy and he's flying out of the room. Seconds later, he's throwing the toy back in the room all over again.... Talk about manipulative. I think he is trying to motivate me to play with him. 🤣 I just love this breed. <B


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Just a little fun stuff after training for my non golden "clumsy thick-skulled galoot" Lily




Was thinking about training recently, as I pretty much always am. Remembered posting this;



SRW said:


> A verbal correction can make these dogs feel that they have failed, shaking their confidence.


It occurred to me that a retriever should never think they have failed. A puppy should always know that success is just ahead and he will get there if he keeps trying. It is up to the trainer to keep a dog thinking that way.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

SRW said:


> It occurred to me that a retriever should never think they have failed. A puppy should always know that success is just ahead and he will get there if he keeps trying. It is up to the trainer to keep a dog thinking that way.


Sometimes a verbal correction just cuts to the chase and helps shape a dog's effort so there's less of a struggle and less chance of the dog being demotivated because "nothing works". I think anyway. It's been my impression when teaching articles to my dogs. I actually haven't truly started with my current two....  Was hoping their dad could help teach them the game by having him do it first with them crated and watching.

With their dad, I attempted to teach articles one way - which is "round the clock". What this means is the dog ends up doing ten million retrieves in a training session - and these are unexciting placed retrieves where the scented article is placed at a different spot each time and the dog learns to search for it.

Never worked with him. By the third or fourth article position, his excitement in fetching was already going down and I was seeing him walking out to the pile and exhibiting lackluster effort. <= Basically everything that field people talk about with conformation dogs, I was seeing with him.

So I taught articles a different way with him just cutting to the chase and finding my article in a pile that gets bigger and bigger and not always in the same session.

Basically expect to do the same with his sons - just because I don't want to break their love of retrieving. Might not happen if the retrieves are exciting with the dogs being sent out across ponds or fields.... but definitely happens when doing articles. At least that I've seen.,,, just thinking aloud.

Oh and just for fun - sharing a picture of my dogs not exactly looking like fancy fairies today.  (they smell like cows on a hot day right now)


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> Sometimes a verbal correction just cuts to the chase


Agreed and handler’s need to realize how powerful a verbal correction can be with some dogs.
The main point I was trying to make was that a retriever should never think he has failed. He (or she, Lily is looking at me while I’m typing) should always know that he will succeed.
Confidence is everything.


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## forgold (Feb 29, 2020)

Megora said:


> Just sharing something I saw at a training class...
> 
> This was a couple that I've known for a long time. Lab people. They do everything with their dogs - that's field and obedience. I vaguely know they've done agility as well. Not sure on conformation.
> 
> ...



Seems like the two of them have agreed to disagree because he says so——arbitrary demand of a YOUNG dog in class…ought to be enough space for this dog to sit, look around, when he’s not in the ring. Or crate him. Has the instructor tried to quash hubby’s demands?


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