# Systemic Yeast Infection - grain free or not?



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

My Bentley has had yeasty ears in the past but not systemic.

You might try a grain-free, potato free, and limited ingredient kibble like the new Nature's Variety Instinct Turkey Meal. It has one protein (turkey) and one carb (tapioca).

Nature's Variety Instinct: Limited Ingredient Diet: Turkey Meal Formula for dogs | Nature's Variety


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Katarina said:


> I have read a lot about Systemic Yeast Infection and I have to admit that I am really confused as far as what to feed.


A big problem is that a lot of what you're probably reading is absolute hooey. There's a lot of misinformation out there about yeast. A true systemic yeast infection (a fungal blood infection) is life threatening. It's not a skin inconvenience.

If you're talking about persistent yeast infections in the skin in multiple places, you're taking about Candidiasis, and there are lots of treatments for that at the vet. Sometimes poor skin condition can result if a dog doesn't have enough fat in the diet, so a higher fat diet (including raw) can help.

There is absolutely no hard evidence that links grains in the diet to yeast on the skin. It's hooey, no matter how many times it's repeated on internet forums. A crappy food can leave the skin dry and give infections a better chance of getting started, but there's nothing magical about corn or wheat that causes yeast overgrowth.



Katarina said:


> I used several brands of high quality holistic kibble which contained rice or millet and it did not make any difference. My dog did not improve but did not get worse either.


Can you tell us more about what the actual symptoms are?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Cruiser was chronic with his ears.... took him for allergy testing and it was environmental. Once we got him on Allergy shots, ear infections are gone....


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

This all started when Cody was about year and a half old. He is now almost four. At that time his symptoms were following:
- red fur between his toes - front paws only, the skin was totally inflamed and oozing out a pus like stuff
- red fur around his testicles area
- stool started normal, but always ended soft
- terrible gas
- belching and burping after eating
- discomfort after eating - pacing from room to room, swallowing constantly, standing with his head bent down, licking his lips
- very noisy digestion - could hear him across a room
- watery discharge from his right eye casing the fur under the eye to turn red
- lost about 10 lbs
- eating grass
- licking his front legs
- sometimes he bites his rear legs, but does not break the skin

Food history: Eukanuba Chicken & Rice, Healthwise Chicken, Precise Chicken and Rice, Nature's Logic Lamb, Nature's Variety Lamb, Stella and Chewy's Frozen Raw Lamb and Chicken.

Exams: blood test, blood chemistry, ultrasound, x-rays, stool exam - several times, stool culture. Every test came back negative. Only thing I remember his vet mentioned after the x-rays that Cody's stomach looked flaccid.

Cody was treated with Digestive Enzymes and Probitics - several different brands. Some of them made his gas and belching worse.
After switch to raw food and using Karbo Essentials supplement Cody gained back the 10 lbs. Also, the red fur between his toes and the inflammation is much better. It is still present, but much less than before. His gas problem seemed to disappear, however, his belching and noisy stomach are still present and so is the discharge from his eye and the red fur under the eye. 
Also, there are small pieces of bone in the raw food, the size is maybe 1/8" or so. Cody doesn't seem to digest the bone at all, it just goes right through him.
I want to mention that among other things he was put on pancreatic porcine enzymes and those were causing him a very strong acid reflux - he was burping up liquid which then got into his air passages and he had reverse sneezing episodes several times a day. It was horrible to watch it.

I want to mention that Cody does not vomit almost at all. Since I have him I saw him vomiting maybe 4 times altogether. Also, he does not have yeasty or smelly ears. Besides the paws he did not have any skin problems until last weekend. Last weekend he chewed on his tail and created a hot spot, by now the scab is almost gone. 

The last thing I want to mention is that as a puppy he was constantly treated for parasites. I think he had them almost all. Giardia and Coccidia repeatedly. I think his current problems might have been created back then.
Also, Cody was never diagnosed. There is a suspicion that he has digestive motility problem or defect in his stomach.

I probably wrote more than you wished to know, but it is hard to decide what is relevant info and what is not.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for all the info. It helps put the food questions in a much more useful context.

The red fur is almost certainly from licking those areas. Beyond that, I'm totally stymied by the problems except to note that diet changes probably won't solve them if you've already tried all of those options.

Out of curiosity, did he have a full thyroid panel done?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Katarina said:


> Also, Cody was never diagnosed. There is a suspicion that he has digestive motility problem or defect in his stomach.


Why hasn't he been tested? Our Toby was tested on a suspicion of something going on with his digestion and it turned out he has a cobalamin/folate deficiency, which is treated by cobalamin injections that I do on schedule at home. He is going into the vet this morning for his followup bloodwork to be sent to the Texas A&M gastric lab for analysis. 

It sounds like you may be dealing with more than just a SYI--both digestive enzyme deficiencies, environmental and food allergies--requiring different treatments.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Thanks for all the info. It helps put the food questions in a much more useful context.
> 
> The red fur is almost certainly from licking those areas. Beyond that, I'm totally stymied by the problems except to note that diet changes probably won't solve them if you've already tried all of those options.
> 
> Out of curiosity, did he have a full thyroid panel done?


I don't think so. I think they tested the thyroid as a part of blood test only, but I don't think that it was full thyroid panel. If I ask the vet to do a full thyroid panel will that be enough, or do I need to specify exactly what I want to be tested?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Katarina said:


> I don't think so. I think they tested the thyroid as a part of blood test only, but I don't think that it was full thyroid panel. If I ask the vet to do a full thyroid panel will that be enough, or do I need to specify exactly what I want to be tested?


I'll let others chime in on exactly which thyroid test you should have done and where you should send it. Some folks are very experienced with these issues.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> Why hasn't he been tested? Our Toby was tested on a suspicion of something going on with his digestion and it turned out he has a cobalamin/folate deficiency, which is treated by cobalamin injections that I do on schedule at home. He is going into the vet this morning for his followup bloodwork to be sent to the Texas A&M gastric lab for analysis.
> 
> It sounds like you may be dealing with more than just a SYI--both digestive enzyme deficiencies, environmental and food allergies--requiring different treatments.


What test exactly did you have in mind? Allergy? I listed all tests Cody had done, but no, he did not have an allergy test done. At the beginning I did not think that his issue was an allergy, but now I think that anything is possible.
What test was done on Toby to find out the cobalamin/folate deficiency?


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

I did not mention that as a next test was suggested the barium x-ray, but I haven't decided if to go for it or not. After all the tests he had done I was kind of skeptical that the barium would shed a light on Cody's issue. Maybe I should reconsider.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Cobalamin: Diagnostic use and therapeutic considerations - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences

The above link is from the TAMU veterinary school gastrointestinal laboratory website and discusses the cobalamin deficiency, testing, treatments. 

Allergy testing is something else to consider for Cody's other issues, but the digestive enzyme testing is for digestive issues primarily. My dog doesn't suffer from any allergies, but has a very sensitive GI tract. From your posts I gathered your dog might be suffering from multiple issues: allergies, digestive issues and possible food intolerances--each separate and with different methods of diagnosis.

Do you have a veterinary specialty practice your vet can refer you to for more advanced evaluation and diagnosis? It might be worth it.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> Cobalamin: Diagnostic use and therapeutic considerations - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences
> 
> The above link is from the TAMU veterinary school gastrointestinal laboratory website and discusses the cobalamin deficiency, testing, treatments.
> 
> ...


I am going to look up the link. I think the digestive enzyme testing was part of the blood chemistry test which Cody had done. We do have a veterinary specialty practice around here.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Katarina said:


> I am going to look up the link. I think the digestive enzyme testing was part of the blood chemistry test which Cody had done. We do have a veterinary specialty practice around here.


The digestive enzyme test costs about $300 depending on how far you are to the testing lab because it requires special overnight shipping to a lab that does it and there are very few around the country. It was a specialized test, not part of our normal blood panel testing. We will test 4 times this year.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> The digestive enzyme test costs about $300 depending on how far you are to the testing lab because it requires special overnight shipping to a lab that does it and there are very few around the country. It was a specialized test, not part of our normal blood panel testing. We will test 4 times this year.


Cody's blood panel and blood chemistry test was just under $500.00, so it probably wasn't the specialized test, I also think it was done locally here in San Diego area.
Could you please tell me what symptoms did Toby have?


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## Blondie (Oct 10, 2009)

Nothing to offer but hope and prayers that you get a diagnosis and treatment to find ultimate relief!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Katarina said:


> Cody's blood panel and blood chemistry test was just under $500.00, so it probably wasn't the specialized test, I also think it was done locally here in San Diego area.
> Could you please tell me what symptoms did Toby have?


Toby presented with loose stools, vomiting in the mornings (usually partially digested kibble), loss of weight, extreme lack of energy (very noticeable because he is an energetic dog), and exercise intolerance. We started out with an echocardiogram and abdominal sonogram and during discussions with the vet during that exam she suggested we get a serum cobalamin level just in case. She was correct too. The abdominal sonogram showed an enlarged lymph node in the intestinal area that suggested something was going on with his digestive system. We did a weekly series of cobalamin injections (B-12 in concentrated doses), followed by a one month interval before an injection, then waiting another month, retesting his levels and injecting him. Those tests showed small but not significant improvement so we are basically repeating it again. His blood was drawn (fasting) this morning and we'll get the results in the next week. A&M runs the tests in batches and we don't know where we are in the schedule. If all goes well we will continue to supplement with monthly injections. His stool improved almost immediately, his energy returned (not sure if that was due to the treatment or a change in his thyroid dosing), but his weight is about 10 pounds lighter than a year ago. 

We tested Toby's thyroid with a full panel through Michigan State University. Others here on the forum use Hemopet (Dr. Dodds). As long as you are testing for various things you should really consider doing a full thyroid panel because hypothyroidism can result in some of the same symptoms you describe. Toby's thyroid has been a challenge as well because it fluctuated wildly until just recently. We retested his thyroid absorption today and I'm hoping it comes back normal. 

We found out Toby is dealing with several different things, each with their own treatment protocol. It's frustrating!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

One more question--has inflammatory bowel disease been mentioned as a possible issue for Cody? Maybe some of the others here can chime in on that. It certainly sounds like Cody has something wrong with his digestive system.


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## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

I certainly hope that further testing can identify the issues. Although I had suggested the Nature's Variety Instinct Turkey (single protein, single carb of tapioca), it sounds like your dog may end up being a candidate for some home cooking in the future.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> Toby presented with loose stools, vomiting in the mornings (usually partially digested kibble), loss of weight, extreme lack of energy (very noticeable because he is an energetic dog), and exercise intolerance. We started out with an echocardiogram and abdominal sonogram and during discussions with the vet during that exam she suggested we get a serum cobalamin level just in case. She was correct too. The abdominal sonogram showed an enlarged lymph node in the intestinal area that suggested something was going on with his digestive system. We did a weekly series of cobalamin injections (B-12 in concentrated doses), followed by a one month interval before an injection, then waiting another month, retesting his levels and injecting him. Those tests showed small but not significant improvement so we are basically repeating it again. His blood was drawn (fasting) this morning and we'll get the results in the next week. A&M runs the tests in batches and we don't know where we are in the schedule. If all goes well we will continue to supplement with monthly injections. His stool improved almost immediately, his energy returned (not sure if that was due to the treatment or a change in his thyroid dosing), but his weight is about 10 pounds lighter than a year ago.
> 
> We tested Toby's thyroid with a full panel through Michigan State University. Others here on the forum use Hemopet (Dr. Dodds). As long as you are testing for various things you should really consider doing a full thyroid panel because hypothyroidism can result in some of the same symptoms you describe. Toby's thyroid has been a challenge as well because it fluctuated wildly until just recently. We retested his thyroid absorption today and I'm hoping it comes back normal.
> 
> We found out Toby is dealing with several different things, each with their own treatment protocol. It's frustrating!


What can I say, I truly feel your pain. Please let me know the results. I keep my fingers crossed for Toby and you.
I am completely new to the thyroid testing, I just read some info on the Dr. Dodds website. Since I am in California the samples will likely go there. Is the full panel thyroid test called the T5 Plus?
Thank you for all the wonderful info and sharing your knowledge and experience with me.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> One more question--has inflammatory bowel disease been mentioned as a possible issue for Cody? Maybe some of the others here can chime in on that. It certainly sounds like Cody has something wrong with his digestive system.


IBS and IBD and also SIBO were considered, but since all of Cody's tests were negative they were not confirmed. He was treated with Tylosin for SIBO, even though it was not confirm that he had it. After completing the treatment there was no change.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

MyBentley said:


> I certainly hope that further testing can identify the issues. Although I had suggested the Nature's Variety Instinct Turkey (single protein, single carb of tapioca), it sounds like your dog may end up being a candidate for some home cooking in the future.


Unfortunately you might be right, but if the home cooking alone would solve the problem, I would be happy to cook for Cody


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Katarina said:


> What can I say, I truly feel your pain. Please let me know the results. I keep my fingers crossed for Toby and you.
> I am completely new to the thyroid testing, I just read some info on the Dr. Dodds website. Since I am in California the samples will likely go there. Is the full panel thyroid test called the T5 Plus?
> Thank you for all the wonderful info and sharing your knowledge and experience with me.


Yes, I believe Dr. Dodds full panel is the T5 Plus. Dr. Dodds also has a new book about canine hypothyroidism--very interesting and I learned some of Toby's food snacks (veggies/fruits) might lower his hormone levels!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Katarina said:


> IBS and IBD and also SIBO were considered, but since all of Cody's tests were negative they were not confirmed. He was treated with Tylosin for SIBO, even though it was not confirm that he had it. After completing the treatment there was no change.


As I understand it SIBO is treated with tylan powder (tylosin) and B-12 injections. Was EPI (enzyme pancreatic insufficiency) mentioned? B12 - EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Katarina said:


> What can I say, I truly feel your pain. Please let me know the results. I keep my fingers crossed for Toby and you.
> I am completely new to the thyroid testing, I just read some info on the Dr. Dodds website. Since I am in California the samples will likely go there. Is the full panel thyroid test called the T5 Plus?
> Thank you for all the wonderful info and sharing your knowledge and experience with me.


Dr. Dodds thyroid 5 plus includes extra lab work beyond the thyroid panel ( CBC, differential, and chemstries). It runs $125. The Thyroid 5 panel is the complete thyroid panel and is $75.00. We just sent Maggie's recheck thyroid 5 panel yesterday to Hemopet. https://labordatenbank.com/cake/hemopet/samples/hemopet_form The price list and test listing is down the form.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> As I understand it SIBO is treated with tylan powder (tylosin) and B-12 injections. Was EPI (enzyme pancreatic insufficiency) mentioned? B12 - EPI * Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency


EPI was considered, but again based on nothing. Cody was put on pancreatic enzymes. I mentioned it earlier that they were causing a horrible burping and reverse sneezing. I had to stop using them.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

I found in Cody's records that he had done these blood tests:
- Total Health Plus with cPL (IDEXX:2377)
- K9 GI Panel TLI, PLI, Cob/Fol - IDEXX

Does anybody know what those tests include?


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Dr. Dodds thyroid 5 plus includes extra lab work beyond the thyroid panel ( CBC, differential, and chemstries). It runs $125. The Thyroid 5 panel is the complete thyroid panel and is $75.00. We just sent Maggie's recheck thyroid 5 panel yesterday to Hemopet. https://labordatenbank.com/cake/hemopet/samples/hemopet_form The price list and test listing is down the form.


Thank you much for the info, so I guess I will go for Thyroid 5.
Let us know Meggie's test results.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Katarina said:


> I found in Cody's records that he had done these blood tests:
> - Total Health Plus with cPL (IDEXX:2377)
> - K9 GI Panel TLI, PLI, Cob/Fol - IDEXX
> 
> Does anybody know what those tests include?


The TLI, PLI Cob/Fol sound like the same as what we got. If those are recent tests and normal I don't know what to suggest other than to find a specialist, preferably someone with gastrointestinal expertise who might have a better idea of what to test, do or try. Maybe the thyroid tests will reveal some more as well.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

We had a lot of ear infections, went grain free and that's a problem of the past


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

I was thinking last night what to do. I think I would like to do the thyroid, allergy food test and probably the barium x-ray too. I will definitely keep you posted.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

momtoMax said:


> We had a lot of ear infections, went grain free and that's a problem of the past


What grain free do you feed?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I hope you can get some answers, and it's something that can be handled easily. It's so hard to see our pups suffering and not know what it is or how to make it better.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> Toby presented with loose stools, vomiting in the mornings (usually partially digested kibble), loss of weight, extreme lack of energy (very noticeable because he is an energetic dog), and exercise intolerance. We started out with an echocardiogram and abdominal sonogram and during discussions with the vet during that exam she suggested we get a serum cobalamin level just in case. She was correct too. The abdominal sonogram showed an enlarged lymph node in the intestinal area that suggested something was going on with his digestive system. We did a weekly series of cobalamin injections (B-12 in concentrated doses), followed by a one month interval before an injection, then waiting another month, retesting his levels and injecting him. Those tests showed small but not significant improvement so we are basically repeating it again. His blood was drawn (fasting) this morning and we'll get the results in the next week. A&M runs the tests in batches and we don't know where we are in the schedule. If all goes well we will continue to supplement with monthly injections. His stool improved almost immediately, his energy returned (not sure if that was due to the treatment or a change in his thyroid dosing), but his weight is about 10 pounds lighter than a year ago.
> 
> We tested Toby's thyroid with a full panel through Michigan State University. Others here on the forum use Hemopet (Dr. Dodds). As long as you are testing for various things you should really consider doing a full thyroid panel because hypothyroidism can result in some of the same symptoms you describe. Toby's thyroid has been a challenge as well because it fluctuated wildly until just recently. We retested his thyroid absorption today and I'm hoping it comes back normal.
> 
> We found out Toby is dealing with several different things, each with their own treatment protocol. It's frustrating!


Hi Dallas Gold, how did Toby's thyroid test go?


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Hi and thanks for asking!

His thyroid is normal, though it's once again in the low normal range. 

His cobalamin/folate test revealed he is almost in normal ranges for cobalamin but his folate was extremely low this time. We are now giving cobalamin injections two times a month and he gets a daily folic acid tablet (400 mcg). We will stop the supplement a week before he is retested again through the A&M lab. The director of the lab believes once his levels are in normal ranges his weight will stabilize and his stools will be normal. 

Did you get any answers?


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Dallas Gold said:


> Hi and thanks for asking!
> 
> His thyroid is normal, though it's once again in the low normal range.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info. I am glad that Toby's tests were normal and hopefully he is on the right path to good health . 
I do not have any results yet. My doggie had done barium x-ray and also the thyroid test. I think the thyroid test is going to be done at the Michigan University lab, I don't expect the results for another week or so. The barium results should be ready either today or on Monday. I will let you know.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi everybody, I thought I will give you an update. I had barium x-rays done on Cody and the test revealed that his stomach is not emptying properly and his intestines are not working properly either. The vet mentioned a specific part of the intestines, I think he said duodendum. In order to pinpoint what is wrong with Cody they would need to do either a biopsy of stomach and intestines or endoscopy. I have a lot of thinking and decision making to do. I am crushed :-(.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

In my previous post I meant to say that they want to do a biopsy by way of exploratory surgery or by endoscopy.

Yesterday came back Cody's thyroid results. They came back normal and supposedly for a Golden retriever the results are actually excellent. 
I did not make a decision regarding the biopsy yet, I wanted to know the thyroid results first. 
I have a lot of thinking to do over the weekend. I fed him this morning ground beef chuck and mashed broccoli and cauliflower, I want to see if food without the bone will make a difference.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

If you home feeding and not feeding bone, you need to supplement the right amount of calcium to balance the phosphorous of the meat. This is very important for a balanced diet. I'm sure some of the raw feeders/home cookers can help with the amount needed.


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## Katarina (Jan 19, 2011)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> If you home feeding and not feeding bone, you need to supplement the right amount of calcium to balance the phosphorous of the meat. This is very important for a balanced diet. I'm sure some of the raw feeders/home cookers can help with the amount needed.


Thank you Betty, you are right. I just want to try for a couple of days plain meat and veggies to see if it will work for my pup and if it does then I will add supplements: digestive enzymes and also calcium and phosphorus plus other vitamins and minerals. I will likely use Dogzymes Ultimate and Dogzymes Bone Builder.


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