# Plop



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

LOL . We had one of those "first ever" classes that left my head spinning and I just need to babble a moment here to let it all out. :bowl:

We got to class and I was the only one who brought a crate for my pup.

The instructor (nice lady) told me I wouldn't need the crate. I chuckled and commented that it was there in case I needed it. 

And as it happened, it was a VERY good idea I had the crate because class technically started a half hour after we got there. I put Bertie in the crate and sat back to wait. 

There were 15 dogs there - WAY TOO MANY!!!! 

When you have 15 dogs handled by experienced trainers, you don't notice the size of the class really. Because the people have control over their dogs and they are respectful of other people's training space. 

This class is a pet class - which means it was chaos. :bowl: Dogs barking and whining nonstop. :uhoh: When we were up and moving, I was constantly shifting Bertie over to an open space FAR FAR away from the other people, because dogs were lunging and jumping into each other space. People were training in "clumps". Some people looked like they were letting their dogs visit each other on the floor when they were supposed to be training. :uhoh: :no::no::no: 

When given the opportunity to switch to a smaller class (I think 5 dogs?), I hopped to it right away. I am mainly using the facilities for training my puppy. And for the purpose of what I'm doing, there needs to be more space and few dogs there. So Bert has to wait 2 weeks before we try this again. 

Training itself - that's where the PLOP comes from. :bowl: Because I've never trained Bertie with distractions swarming in the 6 foot radius of training space around us, I was not prepared for how distracted he was while I trained with him. 

OMG. He was actually jumping and lunging towards some of the other dogs if I didn't move away from them. You never realize how calm, trained, and wonderful your older dogs are until you deal with your first ever puppy class with a new puppy. 

Though the quality of his work was low because of the distractions and lack of space.... Bertie did the prancing next to me. He did his sits. He did his comes. <- I waited for everyone to pitter out the door at the end of class and I pulled treats out and did a few retrieves and treat toss comes. And I even got him around to do some touch work at the gate. 

The instructor told me that he was a really great dog and stated (didn't ask) that I would be showing him in obedience. <- I of course made a face and talked to her about how poorly I thought he did compared to what I'm used to at home. 

I told her I was thinking about not taking him to class with Jacks on Monday, but it's a sure thing that I DEFINITELY WILL now I've seen what he's like. The little social busybody! You'd think he's a golden or something. Monday's class usually is very experienced trainers and I can probably get there early enough to set up Berts crate and get him settled in so he won't bark.  

The huge positive though is that he was all confidence and completely fearless there at class with all the chaos and noise - it's what I was hoping for when I brought him home the first time.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

That's what I didn't like about puppy class plus all puppies were let off leash to "play" together ie: roughhouse.
I just didn't think it was constructive although I guess he did get some much needed socialization with other pups.
I'm now looking for a different class where they remain on leash and under control.
Good luck Monday


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Reminds me of a session from last summer. It was a beginning obedience class, about 10 dogs. The room was big, but not quite big enough. A handful of dog-reactive dogs. The primary trainer was running late, so the assistants started class. They covered the main floor with hula hoops before class started. The idea was that the dogs would come in and the owners would practice having their dogs sit in the hoops. Sit in one hoop, then move on to the next hoop. 

We arrived on time, but not early. Utter chaos. The dog-reactive dogs were out on the floor sitting in the hoops. Every dog in the room was barking. There was no room to manuever to a seat without either going by the dog-reactive dogs or right by another dog on the perimeter. My dog was just under a year, not yet neutered, the other male dogs already had it out for him. I should have turned and left from the get go. But no, I stayed and struggled for an hour with my dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

OMG. Thankfully none of these dogs were "reactive". A lot of them were rescues and that was why the people had them there. Like before class, I was sandwiched between an adorable lab/pit mix and a bull mastiff. <- Both dogs were very friendly towards me and Berts. The pitmix wanted to come home with me because I gave him a few cookies while we were waiting. <- Bertie is pretty much crate trained, but I still give him treats every few minutes in cases like at class where he's in the crate and there's a lot of noise and chaos going on around us. Keeps him thinking "TREAT" vs getting scared by the barking, etc. The pitmix was practically sitting in my lap begging for treats. The owner had 3 little kids with her and was trying to control all the kids and the dog who were all constantly moving.

The bull mastiff was mainly a barker and had this LOUD bark. She was fine about Bertie, but when other mastiffs were brought in, it set her off. 

I would have been extremely upset with my 3 month old being exposed to aggressive dogs...  As it was, they were just raucous and wild. *laughs* So yes, I'm happy to wait a couple weeks to get more space between me and others.

I'm nervous about tonight, because I do want to get a little training with Bertie in before class. I just don't want to cut the time that I'd otherwise spend training Jacks. It's going to be a juggling act, but I knew that years ago when I started planning on bringing home another pup to train. 

I did a little training at home yesterday, but again something (the PLOP) I realized on Saturday is he needs to learn to work through distractions. With Jacks, even with the tight and insane room, he still would have focused only on me because I've distraction-proofed him for years. The pup has a LONG way to go before he catches up with his big bro.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sometimes those environments are great simply because of the management and attention skills they teach you and your dog, though it sucks to pay money for an agility class just to have a noisy environment that you could probably get by grabbing a $5 latte at the local coffeeshop and training on the patio.

There are about 5 or 6 other dogs in our weekly agility class, and in a relatively big space, it means I don't have to leash Comet pretty much at all for the duration of class, since we're all taking turns on equipment or waiting in line as we all cycle over one big piece of equipment (dog walk, A-frame, etc.) turn by turn. 

Any more than 5 or 6, though, and it'd start to feel really crowded. I can't imagine what a gong show it must be to have 15.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Our intermediate class has 10-11 dogs. It does get a little crowded when everyone is heeling in a circle, although it's a fairly large room. 15 would be unmanageable. 

It's amazing how much more focused the dogs in the intermediate class are compared to the beginner class. Bella has made a lot of progress on this. 90% of the time, she just ignores the other dogs.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

But why would they schedule so many dogs in the same beginner class? When I took Tess to therapy dog class, there were 13 dogs, way too many. I was ok with it, because it was more for me than for her, and the distraction was good for her, but had she been less experienced, I would have been upset by it. Especially specialty classes, like agility or for that matter, therapy, should be given in smaller groups, in my opinion. I understand that it is tempting for training schools to sign up a lot of people, but...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> Sometimes those environments are great simply because of the management and attention skills they teach you and your dog....


Very true, but only if your dog already has a concept of focus/attention and working through distractions. 

The class I'm going to tonight usually has 10+ people. But the difference is that these trainers are very experienced and the dogs are seasoned obedience dogs - whether that's 1-2 years obedience training or they are already titled and going after higher titles. The dogs are able to switch on or off as far as tuning out everyone around them.

So you basically can have people working right in a close space together without it being a problem. 

The class I went to on saturday is supposed to be limited to 8 people because the trainers will need to spread out a lot more because they and/or their dogs are very green. Heheh. I had my first "smack of reality" since bringing home a puppy. I went to class thinking about everything I wanted to do to take advantage of the floor time. I never thought I'd be right there with everyone else and working on the VERY basics. LOL.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

inge said:


> But why would they schedule so many dogs in the same beginner class? When I took Tess to therapy dog class, there were 13 dogs, way too many. I was ok with it, because it was more for me than for her, and the distraction was good for her, but had she been less experienced, I would have been upset by it. Especially specialty classes, like agility or for that matter, therapy, should be given in smaller groups, in my opinion. I understand that it is tempting for training schools to sign up a lot of people, but...


Personal opinion... I think somebody dropped the ball and didn't shut off the valve early enough to give people alternatives. Probably because enrollment happened right around the holidays. 

The instructor was in a state of shock when people kept walking in the door. She thankfully is willing to give up a little more of her saturdays to split the class for us who wanted a smaller class size.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> Very true, but only if your dog already has a concept of focus/attention and working through distractions.


True. There are diminishing returns with increasing distractions if your dog doesn't have enough of a foundation for the situation.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> True. There are diminishing returns with increasing distractions if your dog doesn't have enough of a foundation for the situation.


Forget diminishing returns - what happens is it builds bad habits that need to be trained away. It's easier to train a puppy to focus than it is to correct a puppy who has learned to tune out the trainer. It doesn't take much for them to learn to tune mom out when they are somewhat independant minded social beings like my little twerp is. :bowl: With Jacks he never learned to tune me out because we always had very controlled class conditions. I took him way off into corners and kept away from other trainers until I knew for sure he was ready for more distractions.

Tippy, you know I use corrections in my training and have a full tool box as far as handling distractions - but I am very reluctant to use those with a 3 month old puppy. 

It was pretty bad that I was fingering my training bag and thinking about the prong in there. : I won't even use a choke chain (which I think is easier on the dogs). <- I know he wasn't that bad considering his age and the fact he already had a foundation for the exercises. But darnit I expected better.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> Forget diminishing returns - what happens is it builds bad habits that need to be trained away. It's easier to train a puppy to focus than it is to correct a puppy who has learned to tune out the trainer. It doesn't take much for them to learn to tune mom out when they are somewhat independant minded social beings like my little twerp is. :bowl:


Hmm...I guess in that situation I wouldn't be saying the dog's name at all or trying to get his attention, and I'd only shoot for building on the tiniest successes. Like, I'd let him get bored a bit of trying to go see the other dogs (unless he was throttling himself) and then mark and reward when he looked at me. That's what I do in puppy class, and I'm usually able to build a pretty solid attention habit in a pretty young pup.

Though, on the flip side, I do remember holding Jax with my arms because he was willing to throttle himself on the flat collar to go play with other people and dogs at the first few training sessions we did together in a distracting environment (he was 16 weeks when I got him). Still, he learned quickly that trying to go play never worked but that giving me attention did.



Megora said:


> Tippy, you know I use corrections in my training and have a full tool box as far as handling distractions - but I am very reluctant to use those with a 3 month old puppy.


I have mixed feelings about corrections in general, but on a dog that young and who doesn't know the expectations at all, I'd have a hard time seeing merit in any correction or any equipment that relied on discomfort.



Megora said:


> I know he wasn't that bad considering his age and the fact he already had a foundation for the exercises. But darnit I expected better.


There is nothing like a young dog to teach us a little humility as trainers. When you've spent years on a relationship and a habit base with a dog, he makes you look really, really good. A young dog or an old dog in a brand new training environment (like Comet and I at agility), and all of a sudden you see some of your gaps in communication and/or how much your dog has been making you look good.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

inge said:


> But why would they schedule so many dogs in the same beginner class? When I took Tess to therapy dog class, there were 13 dogs, way too many. I was ok with it, because it was more for me than for her, and the distraction was good for her, but had she been less experienced, I would have been upset by it. Especially specialty classes, like agility or for that matter, therapy, should be given in smaller groups, in my opinion. I understand that it is tempting for training schools to sign up a lot of people, but...


I don't know the situation where you go, but I would guess our training facility needs 10-11 per class in order for it to be a profitable business. Either that, or they would need to charge more, which would likely result in fewer students.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> Hmm...I guess in that situation I wouldn't be saying the dog's name at all or trying to get his attention, and I'd only shoot for building on the tiniest successes. Like, I'd let him get bored a bit of trying to go see the other dogs (unless he was throttling himself) and then mark and reward when he looked at me. That's what I do in puppy class, and I'm usually able to build a pretty solid attention habit in a pretty young pup.


*laughs* That would not work at all with Bertie. He can be pretty mule-headed when it comes to doing EXACTLY what he wants. I've tried that exact same method that you mention - holding onto him until he forgets about the other thing. Like an elephant, he never forgets. And sometimes he does things I swear out of pent up determination to do EXACTLY that because he WANTS to and I've been STOPPING him.  I did want a more confident puppy, so I have one. The twerp.



> There is nothing like a young dog to teach us a little humility as trainers.


As they teach us humility in all ways (me yelling - "BERTIE GET YOUR TONGUE OUT OF THE TREE WATER" for the zillionth time) after we've taken pride in how polished and obedient our other dogs are. Our older dogs DO make us look good, but deservedly so. There is a lot of work and training that went into those dogs. I think we get so adjusted to focusing on the minute details that we forget about the mountain you have to climb to get there. 

With Jacks - at class tonight, I guarantee that my instructor will be drilling me on keeping him from dropping his head at pace changes and keeping his rear tucked on left turns. And that is what I'll be working on. <- It has been literally years since I had to keep Jacks from jumping or lunging at another dog. Or not performing the very basic heeling function on command. :uhoh: 

With Bertie, I want to be working on that heads up heeling, movement, butt tucking, etc... <- Which is what we are working on at home every day. 

But he just reminded me this past Saturday that I haz a LOT of work to do before I can start working on the finer (and funner) details of heeling away from home. Darnit. :yuck:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Geeze what a circus!
I did the same puppy kindergarten with both Fisher and Slater. Same teacher and everything. Both were equally worthless. The only thing I learned the last time, was to cram a pizzle stick inside a kong and that keeps puppies occupied forever. 
In those sort of situations I would totally scrap trying to get any training done with the puppy. You know they're only puppies once so let them soak in the environment and have a good time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Geeze what a circus!
> I did the same puppy kindergarten with both Fisher and Slater. Same teacher and everything. Both were equally worthless. The only thing I learned the last time, was to cram a pizzle stick inside a kong and that keeps puppies occupied forever.
> In those sort of situations I would totally scrap trying to get any training done with the puppy. You know they're only puppies once so let them soak in the environment and have a good time.


But for $110 and 8 weeks - I better be getting more out of the class than hanging out. 

After class I did chat with the instructor and let her know in as nice a way possible that when we get back to classes in a couple weeks.... I'll be listening and working along with everyone else, but I may be doing my own thing way off in the back at various points when I'm bored. I didn't use the word "bored" or put it that directly - 

She's absolutely fine with that thankfully and didn't take offense. Phew.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> *laughs* That would not work at all with Bertie. He can be pretty mule-headed when it comes to doing EXACTLY what he wants. I've tried that exact same method that you mention - holding onto him until he forgets about the other thing. Like an elephant, he never forgets. And sometimes he does things I swear out of pent up determination to do EXACTLY that because he WANTS to and I've been STOPPING him.  I did want a more confident puppy, so I have one. The twerp.


Yeah - they can get in kind of a fixated mode where you're pretty much toast and they're kind of self-reinforcing that inappropriate fixation, which you really don't want to let them do.



Megora said:


> There is a lot of work and training that went into those dogs. I think we get so adjusted to focusing on the minute details that we forget about the mountain you have to climb to get there.


Very true.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Megora said:


> You never realize how calm, trained, and wonderful your older dogs are until you deal with your first ever puppy class with a new puppy.


This is SO true! It's like being in puppy shock.

That class sounds like an accident waiting to happen. I would be ok letting puppies play in their very first semester of puppy class; for part of the time only to let off steam and socialize; then get to business and no barging in others' space. But NEVER a mixed bag of puppies with rescues who aren't puppies in the fray.

I've seen trainers let dogs barge in each others spaces and "correct" each other .... gives me high bp and an ulcer. I don't get the philosophy of "letting" adult dogs "correct" each other with snarkiness. And it's always the trainer's dog doing the correcting.. how come he's the one who's always right? He knows everything? :crazy:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I just came back a short while ago from dog class with the "grown up dogs".  

I got to class a half hour early with the big idea to sneak a little training with Bertie in. But we did socialization instead.  

The assistant instructor is waiting for her next golden from Wynwood (hopefully mom is preggers) and she and our instructor spent the half hour playing with Bertie. Which was fine by me. 

Instructor showed me a way to introduce dumbbells to puppies - dumbbell on a string - to encourage drive and encourage the puppy to pick up the dumbbell properly. 

The assistant - I swear she had Bertie by the leash and was going to run away with him. She played with the dumbbell a little and marked/praised Bertie every time he reached for it. Which he was doing each time. I was very proud of my baby boy showing that bit of training.  

As people arrived, he socialized with them and strutted around the floor like he's always been there. Absolutely no fear or shyness other than him checking in on me and Jacks and retreating back to our side from time to time.

I put him in his crate finally at class time and he was an angel. Some of my friends who arrived late didn't realize he was THERE until the end of the class when we were doing out of sight stays. We were all huddled in the far corner out of sight when I made my announcement. Their heads were spinning trying ot figure out where he was...  

The one person actually had been sitting next to the crate and didn't realize there was a puppy in there. He was that good. 

My one friend couldn't get over how calm and "mature" he was for a 15 week old puppy. 

I'm thinking about taking him to class tomorrow with me and Jacks (I have class on Monday and Tuesdays). Like I told the one person - I just hate to leave the baby boy home.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

You really love him, don't you...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Is it that obvious?


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## Door (Apr 2, 2010)

Megora. Your threads are always interesting and informative. But what does "Plop" mean? Its an acronym right?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nope - plop is the sound I made after a not-fun first dog class with the pup burst my balloon.


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