# Hair Length & Trimming



## 3181wly

From reading various topics here, I get it that there is overwhelming opposition to shaving a GR. I agree totally for what it is worth, which isn't much. I also get the view that there is very strong opposition to doing much in the way of trimming. From my personal point of view, I prefer a GR to not have long hair, but hair of a medium length. I see pictures and have read on the internet about swimmers cut and puppy cut. I'm not sure of the difference, as they both look very similar to me. Forgetting for a time personal choice and preference of the human partner, is there anything fundamental bad from a grooming standpoint for a GR to trim down to a medium to shorter length like what folks commonly call a swimmers cut or puppy cut? If so, what is the problem? I'm not talking about cutting the undercoat here. I seriously would like to know, as I'm getting a GR service dog, and my wife is very strong in favor of a shorter cut like the swimmers cut. I tend to prefer a shorter cut too, but I wouldn't want to do anything that would harm the dog or the functional coat. I won't be offended, so please say what you think. Thanks.


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## Ljilly28

Shaving down the actual coat exposes delicate skin to the sun in a breed in which melanoma and mast cell tumors etc proliferate with no help. That is why it is a bad idea. In the sense of trimming feathering and potty feathering etc, lots of us take pride in grooming golden so we have the full tail and feathering, but it is way better than mats to trim. One product that is helpful to me is crown royal magic touch in spraying on to repel matting etc.


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## GoldenCamper

BillBRNC said:


> Forgetting for a time personal choice and preference of the human partner, is there anything fundamental bad from a grooming standpoint for a GR to trim down to a medium to shorter length like what folks commonly call a swimmers cut or puppy cut? *If so, what is the problem?*


They look just fine trimmed to a puppy cut, no harm. The problem comes from people that bring a Golden to a "groomer" asking for such and come back to find their dog shaved and practically bald 

If you don't know the person that grooms your dog for the first time bring pictures of what you expect. Also never utter the word shaved, leave that to the vets when medically necessary.


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## 3181wly

Thanks. I had figured taking pictures would be the only way to insure a reasonable chance of getting what I ask for. That and staying there the whole time for the first couple of trips, just to make sure the same person is doing it. I just don't want to damage the fur or harm to dog, but I find it hard to believe that saying don't cut the undercoat and leave a two to three inches above could cause harm. But I wanted to ask anyway.


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## 3181wly

On a personal level, I don't care for shaved dogs of any type. I also don't care for crew cuts, but I guess that is what a Lab is naturally. I also don't care for long hair. My preference is in the middle. Having never owned a GR, I don't want to hurt the dog or damage the coat, which is why I asked this question. It just seemed logical to me that leaving the undercoat untouched, then trimming the outer coat down to a few inches, with appropriate shaping and such, would not harm the dog or damage the coat. Again, this is why I'm asking. I can tell from other topics that many owners of GR think the very long hair is essential to the karma of the breed. I respect that, to each their own. Within reason, I doubt the dog cares, but again that is why I'm asking. Thanks. I hope more folks wade into the discussion, but I am looking for various points of view.


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## Megora

Why get a golden retriever if you want a short coated dog? 

You might want to give some thought to buying a lab puppy instead of a golden if you want a dog with a short coat. 

Golden retrievers who have been trimmed look funky to me. The coats also feel damaged and gross.


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## GoldenCamper

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## 3181wly

Different strokes for different folks.


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## Megora

I'm guessing it might seem like I was trying to be obnoxious or something... but I'm serious.

When you set out to buy a puppy - and you are looking into different breeds... you are at a good point to sort out which breed you actually can live with. There are actually a lot of different breeds who all have the same nice temperaments and good looks... but fit better with different lifestyles.

If length of coat and ease of care is a big issue - then you might be better off looking into different breeds - if within the sporting group. 

There are short coated breeds that are really nice. Labs are no exception - and general appearance and temperament - are very similar to golden retrievers. 

There is no reason to select a breed - which doesn't ultimately fit in with your lifestyle. 

A good example I can offer from my personal experience... I love rough collies. We own one (he's shared between my direct family and my sister's family - he spends his days in the one house and goes home at night to the other house - we also share bills to take care of him). I love the breed. I think of all breeds out there, they go very well with a golden retriever home. But they are very sensitive (thin skinned) and heavily coated (I'm not counting the smooth coateds). I don't mind grooming golden retrievers - but all that coat on a rough collie is a nightmare. It puts maintaining a golden retrievers' coat into perspective. 

My mom and I have been chatting about the next puppy I bring home. I'm pretty sure that when the time comes - it will be a golden retriever again. But my mom also has been talking about getting another rough. My mom doesn't have anything to do with the grooming - so it's easy for her to suggest getting a second collie.  

My preference is to stick with breeds that are very easy keepers, don't need a lot of grooming, and so on. Golden retrievers fit that mold... and I don't particularly think their coats are too "long". They have double coat - with a softer undercoat and more coarse top coat. The length isn't a big deal. You get used to it, and like I said when you compare to long coated breeds - you really count yourself lucky with just a golden retriever length coat. The feathering - you can go after lines which have less feathering. A lot of the field lines may not have so much furnishings. You could cut it off - or cut shorter, but I guarantee regardless of length - you will still be dealing with a tendency to mat. The softer the feathering - the more likely it will mat. If it's shorter - it will just mat closer to the skin - assuming you aren't brushing it out. Another issue is a lot of the field line goldens sometimes have softer feathering when they have feathering - and it is a pain. So you trade off the length of coat, but you will still need to groom your dog on a regular basis.

If you are really into the breed - all this is nothing. 

But if you are still at that point when you don't have a dog and are in the planning phase... and are already thinking about keeping your dog clipped (!) - you might want to rethink why you want a golden retriever versus another breed that might naturally be everything you are looking for.


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## TheZ's

Don't know if you (OP) have settled on a breeder and pup yet but depending on the pedigree there is quite a bit of difference among Goldens with respect to the coat they carry. You may be able to find a pup suitable for training as a service dog from a mostly field or performance pedigree that won't develop as long a coat as many dogs from a show pedigree. Seeing the parents of any pup you're interested in should give you an idea of what kind of coat to expect.

If you really don't like the feathering and all of a Golden, I'd say consider a lab. They're supposed to make good service dogs but some people say their shedding is worse than a Golden.


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## 3181wly

Well, I truly think some folks are way too tied up in the idea that there is only one way a GR is supposed to look. But that aside, I didn't pick the dog, the service dog foundation picked me for the dog. My GR is a service dog first, and a companion almost first. I prefer dogs with mid length fur. And the pictures I've seen of swimmer cuts and puppy cuts look great to me. My concern over shortening hair length has to do with whether it would adversely impact the health and well-being of the dog. Seems not, so that is as far as I need to go. I'm not a purist about GRs. I do like the dog, though, and I prefer shorter hair. I don't know what else to say, other than to each their own.


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## Megora

I guess my opinion is that you might still have some say with whatever organization you are using... my concern is it's pointless to talk about pedigrees anyway if you are purchasing a dog through an organization. As opposed to purchasing your dog yourself from X or Y breeder.

I've no clue what service the dog is performing for you... some organizations do seem to favor labs over goldens. Which goes back to my point, you probably are better off getting a lab. Particularly as you are set on having a short-coated dog.



> Well, I truly think some folks are way too tied up in the idea that there is only one way a GR is supposed to look


This is a funny thing to respond to, because while I personally think some dogs look downright hideous - it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things beyond whatever point that somebody might ask for an honest opinion. Most of the time - you won't get an opinion beyond a "that's nice" smile....  

Most dogs who have been trimmed - their coats are not healthy looking and they are caked with oils. 

I know of one owner in particular - she trimmed the dogs one summer because she thought it would keep them cool. And it messed up their coats and distribution of oils. She has to keep the trimmed because the coats are really messed up and will never be the same. Her dogs look like lab mixes as opposed to actual golden retrievers. I say lab "mixes" because even labs have better coats than fuzzy junk that her dogs have. 

I tend to think bottom line is people are trying to make one breed have the attributes of a completely different breed - when they purchase golden retrievers, and clip the coats short. They might as well have bought a short-coated breed to begin with.


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## aesthetic

I don't think anything anyone is saying has anything to do with their idea of how a golden should look. It is simply because you are saying that you prefer shorter hair on a dog that they are recommending a lab for you.


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## DogOwner




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## 3181wly

I'm not looking for confrontation here. I asked a simple question, and I appreciate the answers. I knew there is a difference of opinion, but I wanted to know if mid-cuts would harm the dog. They don't, so the appearance issue is up to individual tastes. After all many men and women cut their hair a certain length because they like it that way, yet all of them could grow it to their waist if they so desired. As for buying a different breed, I can tell you to a certainty that the professionals who train service dogs are only interested in training the best breeds for the people who need them and the service that needs to be performed. When not working, a service dog is just a loving pet. When working, they are all business, even though they are very attached to their partner.


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## mm2k14

Hi, Bill. :wavey:

I am a puppy raiser for a service dog organization. Statistically, labs and goldens perform equally well. It is the organization's preference what breeds they use. Now, to me, it sounds like a lab x golden is more what you're looking for in appearance. My organization does not cross-breed, but these days many do. It is certainly something you could ask about. It is unclear to me whether or not your desire to have a shorter coated dog is purely aesthetic, or because of shedding/grooming potential. You also mentioned your wife's preference. 

I don't think anyone is asking you to find an entirely new organization so you can get a lab. You are on a golden forum, and to probably 99% of breed enthusiasts shaving a golden is a big no-no. If it is a grooming related problem, the bottom line is that regardless of whether or not you cut a golden's hair, the dog is going to shed. It will probably need to be brushed multiple times a week, if not every day. For that matter, a lab is also going to shed, albeit in a different manner. (Personally I find longer dog hairs to be easier to deal with in terms of removal from clothing and vacuuming-- but that is my personal preference.) If you want a dog that won't shed, go poodle.

I do not know specifically how much a mid-cut would harm the dog. I imagine it would certainly have an impact. As others have mentioned, the coat protects the dog from the sun. Cancers are a big problem with the breed to begin with. Additionally, exposing more of the dog's skin to the sun makes it harder for the dog to regulate its temperature, and it will overheat faster. Conversely, the dog will be colder in winter. A golden's coat also acts as a water-repellent, and traps things like dirt from getting to the skin. This is why dirt regularly "falls off" of goldens. 

As humans we have the option of putting a hat on if we cut our hair short, or using sun screen. That comparison doesn't really work for dogs. Yes, with some breeds it doesn't matter and you can shave until your heart's content. Goldens are not one of those breeds. I do not think it was anyone's intention to attack or offend you. If you're still thinking about going ahead, try talking to some reputable groomers and see what they think. For that matter, talk to a vet and get their take. It is also always an option to ask the organization itself that you're getting the dog from. They should be more than happy to help you.

Good luck!


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## 3181wly

MM, thanks for the comments. I am going to ask all of the folks mentioned, as I don't want to do anything bad for the dog. If I truly should not trim it for reasons realated to the dog, then I won't do it. As for why, it is a little bit of all the things you mentioned. As for breed, that's a done deal now, unless I want to wait another year or two. By the way, I'm not talking about shaving here or crew cuts. I'm only referring to trimming it down to untouched undercoat and around 3 inches of outer coat, maybe a little more depending on what the groomer says. I asked here because this is a Golden Retriever forum, where there are many folks in the know. I'll take what I learn here and combine with what I get from the foundation, the vet, and the groomer, then hopefully do what is best all around. Thanks again. Bill.


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## Tennyson

You're doing all the right research. You'll be fine and so will your new pup.
I've had both goldens and labs and the lab shedding was way worse then the golden. That short coarse fur was a pain to deal with. It wove itself in to everything.


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## 3181wly

I just want to add this, so folks don't get the wrong idea about where I am on this. I need a service dog. Without an appropriately trained SD, I will have to move into a facility about 2 or 3 years sooner than I will have to anyway. That's my present and my future, period. The better the fit breed, the greater my chances for staying somewhat independent for a longer time. I went to the best professionals I could find that didn't have a waiting list years long. They train GRs, Labs, Germans, and other breeds. They spend time with the person (me), they find out what my needs are, then they decide what is the best breed and the best fit within that breed for me. It really isn't something I question. You can't buy SDs over the internet or at some retail store. The real ones take a minimum of 1 or 2 years to train. These are the dogs that can go inside restaurats and you won't know they are there. The things they can do would amaze most people, even people who love and own dogs. For me, the dog I hope to get soon will literally make the difference between living relatively free for a few more year and not being able to. When I go inside a facility, the dog will then go with me and be my companion and friend. Just so you know, a SD cost a small fortune, so it doesn't make sense to waste it. This is why I'm asking about whether shorter hair will harm the dog versus simply annoy people who love the look of the breed. I didn't seek a GR. I only sought the best SD I could get from a highly reputable foundation. Now, I'm checking to see what can and cannot be safely done. Thanks again for all the responses, even the ones going the other way. I appreciate all comments. I only want information, so I appreciate all points of view.


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## Loisiana

most goldens, other than some of the ones bred to be show dogs with excessive coat, aren't going to have top coat much longer than 3 inches anyway. Goldens don't have the floor length coat like a maltese or a yorkie. Just trim up the feathering some and you shouldn't need any additional trimming to be at the length you are talking about.


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## 3181wly

Loisiana said:


> most goldens, other than some of the ones bred to be show dogs with excessive coat, aren't going to have top coat much longer than 3 inches anyway. Goldens don't have the floor length coat like a maltese or a yorkie. Just trim up the feathering some and you shouldn't need any additional trimming to be at the length you are talking about.


 Now that's a useful comment. Thanks. I've only seen a few GRs, and they are with some folks who are really into the GR scene, so theirs might have much longer hair than normal. I've also seen pictures, and most of them seem to have really long flowing hair, but maybe that's not the norm. The GR I'm getting is just past 2 years old, and it does not currently have long flowing hair like many pictures or those my friends have. I guess I'll just have to wait and see. Thanks.


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## Goldens&Friesians

Hi Bill! I am a groomer so I'll do my best to answer your questions! Its been established that you understand shaving is bad for the coat, so I won't go into that.  The topcoat is what is given to a dog to protect the undercoat. It also works to help regulate the dog's temperature (i.e. it keeps him warm in the winter and cooler in the summer). Cutting off the topcoat prevents it from doing this as well as it could. Also, sometimes cutting it just once will make it never grow back, or grow back thinner or more sparse. Other times, it seems to grow back ok, but tends to loose the shiny, healthy look. As a rule, I try not to give a full body haircut to a golden unless there is some veterinary reason for it. Something that I will do for people who want less hair/easier maintenance is a trim up of the feathering on the pants (hind legs), tail, front legs, belly, chest, and the fluffies around the ears. The under coat on the body tends to not be a whole lot shorter than the topcoat, so any trimming of the topcoat may also damage the undercoat. I've attached a picture of a golden I've groomed who has the feathering on the pants, tail, belly, and front legs trimmed. Just to give you an idea of what it looks like. Hope this is helpful!


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## 3181wly

GF, thanks for the info and the pictures. The pictures really help. Bill.


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## 3181wly

I hope I haven't run off all the folks who oppose shorter hair on a GR. I'm really only seeking information. What do you guys think of G&F's top picture? That is what I had in mind when asking the question. Would this be too much for a GR to accept and thrive with from a health and general psyche standpoint? Please let me know what you guys think? Thanks.


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## GoldenCamper

BillBRNC said:


> I hope I haven't run off all the folks who oppose shorter hair on a GR. I'm really only seeking information. What do you guys think of G&F's top picture? That is what I had in mind when asking the question. Would this be too much for a GR to accept and thrive with from a health and general psyche standpoint? Please let me know what you guys think? Thanks.


Dog she groomed looks great to me. My 2 girls had long luxurious coats that I kept up with and I loved it unless they had diarrhea  Cleaning their pants wasn't fun but love a long coat myself. My boy was more field and never really needed much grooming. Either way they shed plenty.


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## 3181wly

GC, thanks for your reply. I just hope many of the folks who replied earlier come back and comment on the picture. The picture is exactly what I had in mind, but I wouldn't do even that if it would cause harm or mental anguish to the dog. I just want to know what I can and cannot do. Thanks.


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## GoldenCamper

BillBRNC said:


> GC, thanks for your reply. I just hope many of the folks who replied earlier come back and comment on the picture. The picture is exactly what I had in mind, but I wouldn't do even that if it would cause harm or mental anguish to the dog. I just want to know what I can and cannot do. Thanks.


I can guarantee any further comments on the picture you mentioned will be good. Most of us here have seen nightmare grooming posts. Looks like a fine happy Golden to me.


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## Megora

BillBRNC said:


> GC, thanks for your reply. I just hope many of the folks who replied earlier come back and comment on the picture. The picture is exactly what I had in mind, but I wouldn't do even that if it would cause harm or mental anguish to the dog. I just want to know what I can and cannot do. Thanks.


First - "mental anguish" has nothing to do with it. The dogs probably only care if they have skin irritation from having their private areas clipped out. I saw a horrific picture elsewhere with a dog with a massive staff infection which probably started from a "hygienic clip" on its belly. 

The picture does clarify... and contradict what you were asking earlier. 

Earlier, you seemed to describe clipping the top coat down to the undercoat and getting a shorter coated dog - which is why you had me and others telling you to just get a lab. 

The dog, from what I can tell in the picture, has just had the feathering and trousers chopped off and from what I can she clipped the fur on the belly and shaved the belly area. 

As far as the head/neck - if I were concerned about keeping stuff cleaned up and avoiding infections, I would use a stripper and clean up the fur going down the neck and around the ears. The thick hair around there usually is a prime reason why dogs develop ear infection and funky stuff around the neck. 

Older dogs - as their coats change - will get thicker coat around the neck. It doesn't dry that fast when they get wet and it's just a pain as far as bacteria and yeast growth especially in the folds of skin around the neck. 

I've seen pictures of dogs whose "bibs" have really be cleaned up. Meaning if you look at the picture of that dog above, it's all that soft fur in front trimmed shorter and thinned out completely. And in the case of these dogs - they are older dogs, and I get why they've been trimmed to that extent. It probably also feels good to the dogs having the weight off their necks.. 

But I don't really see the benefit to shaving off the leg feathering, belly, and trousers. Especially since I just saw on another thread you are planning to brush your dog out every day. If you are going to do that, then you have nothing to worry about. Literally with my dogs, you just have run a brush through the feathers maybe once every couple weeks or so. 

You can trim up anything on the dog. A lot of people who never brush their dogs DO cut the long feathers short to avoid having to brush them out. I guess. More often, I think people get the dogs "landscaped" because they come from breeds that have those same areas clipped up. It's a every dog be clipped the same way type of thing. I don't care for the look, but it's the owner's problem. 

Also keep in mind - the dog you get might be "naked" as far as coat. Meaning, naturally s/he might not have feathering to speak of. Which at that point, you probably have nothing to worry about.


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## 3181wly

Kate, thanks for the reply. I had a feeling that I had not asked the question correctly. When I saw the picture, I realized that the picture showed what I was trying to describe. I'm not sure what I'll be doing, but it would never involve trimming more than what is shown in the picture. In fact, if we do trim him, I'll take that exact picture with me to make sure the groomer knows what I'm talking about, and I plan to stay there the whole time if the groomer will allow it. I don't want to mess this up, truly. Thanks again. Bill.


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## Monkey&Marshall

Megora said:


> First - "mental anguish" has nothing to do with it. The dogs probably only care if they have skin irritation from having their private areas clipped out. I saw a horrific picture elsewhere with a dog with a massive staff infection which probably started from a "hygienic clip" on its belly.
> 
> The picture does clarify... and contradict what you were asking earlier.
> 
> Earlier, you seemed to describe clipping the top coat down to the undercoat and getting a shorter coated dog - which is why you had me and others telling you to just get a lab.
> 
> The dog, from what I can tell in the picture, has just had the feathering and trousers chopped off and from what I can she clipped the fur on the belly and shaved the belly area.
> 
> As far as the head/neck - if I were concerned about keeping stuff cleaned up and avoiding infections, I would use a stripper and clean up the fur going down the neck and around the ears. The thick hair around there usually is a prime reason why dogs develop ear infection and funky stuff around the neck.
> 
> Older dogs - as their coats change - will get thicker coat around the neck. It doesn't dry that fast when they get wet and it's just a pain as far as bacteria and yeast growth especially in the folds of skin around the neck.
> 
> I've seen pictures of dogs whose "bibs" have really be cleaned up. Meaning if you look at the picture of that dog above, it's all that soft fur in front trimmed shorter and thinned out completely. And in the case of these dogs - they are older dogs, and I get why they've been trimmed to that extent. It probably also feels good to the dogs having the weight off their necks..
> 
> But I don't really see the benefit to shaving off the leg feathering, belly, and trousers. Especially since I just saw on another thread you are planning to brush your dog out every day. If you are going to do that, then you have nothing to worry about. Literally with my dogs, you just have run a brush through the feathers maybe once every couple weeks or so.
> 
> You can trim up anything on the dog. A lot of people who never brush their dogs DO cut the long feathers short to avoid having to brush them out. I guess. More often, I think people get the dogs "landscaped" because they come from breeds that have those same areas clipped up. It's a every dog be clipped the same way type of thing. I don't care for the look, but it's the owner's problem.
> 
> Also keep in mind - the dog you get might be "naked" as far as coat. Meaning, naturally s/he might not have feathering to speak of. Which at that point, you probably have nothing to worry about.


I am a little anal and so I often have Monkey's feathers "trimmed" (I say often, but it's truly twice a year when I take him to get furminated when he starts to blow that coat). I just like them to be a little more even and less straggly. LOL! So we don't lose a lot of length, but we do even them out a tad. 

And I do have them thin his mane. His chest hair is like 1970's burt reynolds yall. It brings home all kinds of fun stuff from the back yard, it makes a great chew toy for the puppy, and it starts to look just yuck by the time I am ready to have them trim him again. LOL!!!


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## Megora

Trimming up the feathers to the back of the big pad is pretty normal. I do this with my dogs (when I think of it anyway or grooming for show). The ends get pretty rough sometimes. 

The fur on the hocks (back feet) too - I trim back to within 1-2" length. It would be a bit longer.

Neck and chest - a little cleaned up, but not with scissors or clippers. 

I would not touch the trousers. 

Tails get trimmed up with a "hand's length" from the tip of the bone. The "width" of the tail can all be trimmed up and shaped. 

Totally clipping or shaving off the feathers like in the picture above - I don't understand why you'd do that... especially if you going to brush your dog on a regular basis. To me it's owners who want their goldens to be trimmed like the little toy dogs - like pomeranians and yorkies, etc.


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## Monkey&Marshall

I need to find a pic of the monkey Pre and post groom. He just got trimmed today. His trousers (that's so cute, my husband calls them his Wellington Boots... he's English. HA!)never have anything taken off. We do pretty much what you have written to a tee, I think.

I am not sure what they do his neck hair with, but it just comes back looking "tidy" and not so "I'm a Lion from the Serengeti". I simply tell them "Can you just make this look nicer." HA!


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## Monkey&Marshall

OK, I tried to wrangle him - it's the puppy's witching hour so I was trying to take pics in between poor monkey being chewed on. HA!

Monkey, pre groom - taken last week. LOOK! You can see, despite my vigorous attempts to keep him brushed - the puppy had chewed a nice little knot in the mane:










Here are my sad attempts at photos tonite, which really don't do it justice. His neck looks thinner than it really is, I think it's the angle in which I took it. He is still quite floofy. (and you can already see where the little crud has been yanking on him. LOL... bless him, he has the patience of a saint):

















I like the look of the floof. 
I just like the "even" floof.

ETA: Look at that smile. I love that dog.


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