# Snip Snip, sooner than we wanted?



## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Hi All,

Looking for some honest thoughts...not sure what we should do.

Our breeder "asked"/prefers the pups aren't fixed until 18 months. I know a few of them have been fixed already (lucky to see some for puppy playdates!)

Fin is 8 months -has been lifting his leg to mark, humping towels, blankets, etc since 5 months or so.

Recently (last month or so) we have noticed some aggressive behaviour, more than I want to see/deal with.

He is ball c-r-a-z-y and when retrieving some dogs (at the dog park) run with him, some he plays with and runs with no problem, others (when we started paying attention noticed it was other unneutered males) he will attack, like statue frozen, then attack, and it does not sound, nor look pretty -no injuries to-date. So aside from doing the obvious, we stopped taking the ball to the dog park, we can retrieve anywhere, and so have stopped bringing balls. 

So when playing, some he is great with, some not so much! Finlay will attack, and for a Golden, man can he ever be nasty!!! I hate this, it's embarassing and it happens with some, then he's perfectly fine with others, so to totally limit his socialization just to wait for him to be neutered doesn't seem like fun (or fair) to me. Is neutering even the answer or do we have a bigger problem?

Last night at Agility class he took off on me (he was totally unfocused last night, and it was a bad class for us overall anyways) but he went to another classmate dog, his/her handler, and ran between them, then turned his head back to the left to the dog he just ran infront of and BAM attack. I called him off quickly and he responded, but that took embarassing to a whole new level, proud me and my usually wonderful pup attacks a dog in class. Frig.

For his best interest and less stress on us is snipping going to fix this?

Do we carry on being extra extra cautious and limit his social activity?

Interested to hear any thoughts.....

Here is a picture of my mostly nice, but sometimes naughty Finlay and our day-long rescue (I found the Beagle in a forest when on a hike!) that found his family thankfully


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

There's no medical reason that I have ever heard of that should prevent you from having him altered at his age. Have you asked the breeder why she chose 18 months? Under the circumstances (and I'm sure others will know better than me, but) I would have him altered as soon as I could if I had no plans on breeding or showing him.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Honestly... if you keep your dog intact, I would not do any dog parks or daycares because of this issue. Not because all dogs are going to instinctively attack your golden because he isn't neutered or your golden's going to turn aggressive because he's a boy and all those other dogs are "it"s... but especially since it's so much more difficult making sure your formerly good dog doesn't pick up bad behavior. 

If you had your dog on leash and he challenged another dog, you would instantly make a correction and nip that behavior in the bud. When your dog is loose and a distance away from you, there is no correction until your dog has already attacked another dog. 

Being intact does not automatically mean a dog is going to be more aggressive when off leash. If that were the case, then there would be a LOT of people who have to give up their hopes of having a stud golden who shows in either/both conformation and obedience. 

Some dogs just are more aggressive-tending than others and it's something that they won't grow out of or stop, even if you take your dog in and have him neutered. <- Probably a good example would be our collie who isn't going to be an obedience star anytime soon. After bringing him home, my sister immediately enrolled him in obedience classes, thinking that she'd do something with him. Unfortunately, he would challenge and try attacking anything moving fast and any dogs he deemed a threat (she had to stay away from an Akita especially because Arthur hated that dog's looks). 

Arthur was and is neutered. He does not mount anything, but he does want to pin other dogs and he is always challenging them. 

Without _controlled_ socialization and training, behaviors like that become pretty set.


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## tobysmommy (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't want to hijack this thread, but it is very timely! I was just searching the puppy forum for posts on this issue, although I'm having the opposite "problems".

Toby's appointment is set for January 21st, his 6 month birthday. The thing is, he is a very submissive little guy and has never shown any aggression or lifted his leg to pee. He always squats. The only thing he recently started doing (occasionally) is humping his pillow.

A couple of people (all experienced do owners) have told me that neutering him now might make him extremely submissive and timid. Is that true? Should I wait?


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

tobysmommy said:


> I don't want to hijack this thread, but it is very timely! I was just searching the puppy forum for posts on this issue, although I'm having the opposite "problems".
> 
> Toby's appointment is set for January 21st, his 6 month birthday. The thing is, he is a very submissive little guy and has never shown any aggression or lifted his leg to pee. He always squats. The only thing he recently started doing (occasionally) is humping his pillow.
> 
> A couple of people (all experienced do owners) have told me that neutering him now might make him extremely submissive and timid. Is that true? Should I wait?


I also dont want to hijack this thread, but your toby is still very young. Joey is 9months and he still squats, he has no aggression towards other dogs and on occasion humps his bed... So if your sniping because he doesnt lift, no aggression and humps sometimes, you can and should really wait!


About Finlay, im no expert.. But i do know if Joey was showing any of those things, my mom would call the vet ASAP! lol.. Im sure other more experienced people will let you know what they think is best!


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

We've had similar experiences with Molson. Up until he was about 14 months old, he was constantly attacked by other intact males, never fighting back or instigating anything. 

Now he will do a lot of growling and his hackles will go right up as soon as he sees another male dog approaching. For those reasons, I keep him on leash (if we are hiking, it's usually a long 40' lead) and reel him in close to me as soon as I see another dog approach. It's really annoying to do, but I don't want to give him a chance to get in another dog's face, or vice versa. 

On the other hand, I'm glad that I have waited before neutering him. He has been complimented so many times on his masculine look/blocky head, which I believe is from the testosterone (whether it is true or not, there are articles that say yes, there are some that say no), and while I do have to put a lot more effort and caution into where we take him out and who we let him play with, now that I've found the right places and good dog friends for him to play with I don't think that he has missed out on any fun or adventures because of him being intact.

With all that being said, once he IS neutered, I'm sure it will open up a lot more places and experiences for him, which I am looking forward to though. He will be 2 next week and his days with his other brain are numbered! He will probably have a date with the surgeon in March when I have some time off of work.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I would neuter. Not that it will *solve* your problem, but you don't need testosterone potentially super-charging it. The first big testosterone push usually comes at around nine months.

I would neuter, still avoid situations where he's prone to get himself into trouble, and contact a qualified trainer who can help you work through his issue. "Qualified" is defined by me as someone using positive reinforcement (not punishment and not someone who relies heavily on dominance theory, etc.) who has worked successfully with similar dogs in the past.

FWIW, I think correcting him in the presence of the trigger is a huge mistake. If something happens and he's getting growly, get him out there... far enough away that he can concentrate on other cues and then get him doing something else (sit, down, target to your hand - whatever) to get him back in his "good" brain and not his "aggressive" one.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

I would NOT neuter. You have a behavioral issue here that needs to be dealt with. Most likely it will still exist whether you neuter or not if it is not addressed. There is absolutely NO guarantee neutering will solve your problem. There are all sorts of threads on the problems associated with EARLY spay/neuter. Run a search and you will find a lot of info to guide you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

BayBeams said:


> I would NOT neuter. You have a behavioral issue here that needs to be dealt with. Most likely it will still exist whether you neuter or not if it is not addressed. There is absolutely NO guarantee neutering will solve your problem. There are all sorts of threads on the problems associated with EARLY spay/neuter. Run a search and you will find a lot of info to guide you.


*nods* That was what I was trying to say with my rambling post above. 

I just wanted to add that at 7 or 8 months, your dog is probably at that point where he's having his secondary fear stage and he's just going through a flake zone right now. It's the number one reason why you want to limit any stressful situations for him because it's that point where they might for whatever reason decide that something is wrong about people or other dogs and either get super fearful and evasive of things or they will try taking matters in their own jaws. 

I do not think that fear reaction is going to go away if you neuter your dog right now.

I do think you need to keep getting him to dog classes. Maybe not any classes where he's off leash. But he needs positive socialization - a lot of it. And I would avoid any uncontrolled socializations like dog parks.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

getting him desexed will calm him down some but he will still need training and learn that he can't attack other dogs. What i would do is get him desexed then start training him. I would start training on lead first. If he looks like his going to attack give a slight tug on the lead and tell him No. I would also call him back to you and put him in a sit position. What you could also do is get the other owner to have his dog on lead and walk past you with your dog in sit/stay. The command i really like to teach my dogs is Ignore they know when i say Ignore there not allowed to go near that dog.


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## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

I have Jaro's neutering scheduled in a week. I haven't seen aggression but he is very bratty, and have never taken him to the dog park. Maybe once he is neutered. But he isn't around unaltered males, either, now. I know the age for neutering males is a very touchy issue with some folks. My breeder said whenever I wanted and suggested 10 months. Do what you feel best with.


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## zephyr (Sep 29, 2009)

I agree with the others; I don't think neutering will be a magic "fix," so if you can try and tackle the issues now with training, that would be best... and NOT letting him "practice" the behavior off-leash around a bunch of new/strange dogs is probably for the best.

As an aside, Oscar (not neutered yet) is coming up on 18 months, and (off-leash) HE is the one getting humped or picked on by other non-neutered males (and neutered males... and females!) If we find ourselves in that situation, I just call him away, because otherwise he'll just stand there :doh: Sometimes he'll snark at them a little if they are relentless, but it doesn't really seem to phase him... so I just try and help him out a little by calling him away LOL But I'm sure it is very individual to the dog... Oscar is usually so focused on something else (a ball, rolling around in the snow, etc) that it doesn't seem to bother him... but I could easily see how any dog could be really irritated by the "attention" an un-neutered male gets!

We're waiting to neuter because we wanted to wait until he is fully grown (especially in bone development/size), though I can't really say it has given his head anything like a "blocky" appearance. Postponing neutering won't likely make a big difference in head shape without the genetic potential from the pedigree. Oscar is a pretty skinny guy  Of course, I have no idea what he would have looked like if we'd neutered at 6 months, but I am satisfied that he hasn't suffered any ill effects from postponing the neuter.

Good luck!


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

Thanks for the replies everyone.

We're going to change our methods for now -more on leash, than off when dogs are around and wait it out. 

With our insurance for him he needs to be fixed before 12 months so we were thinking April 19th anyways....but we will see!


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