# GSD and weak hind ends



## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

I hate that 'frog legs' look. There is a 3 yr old bitch that lives near me and it honestly looks like she wobbles when she walks. I would like to see her trot and run to see if it looks any more natural that way but her owner isn't very friendly.

Partly why I choose Diesel's breeder is that all her dogs have straighter backs.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

AKC likes that look for the breed ring as I understand it... .YUCK!!!! I have friends who have GSD's from German bloodlines, those dogs are the most BEAUTIFUL dogs I have ever seen. Strong, straight legs (properly straight ) Just gorgeous. 

UKC will use dogs who have what I term correct back ends but AKC still uses the weakness look. Whether it is or not, I agree they look weak.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^ Totally agree with all of the above. 

A friend of mine owns 2 white shepherds and a regular german shepherd - all dogs who have the more balanced structure that the breed used to have. They are built for endurance and strength. 

The ones in shows look like there is something REALLY WRONG with their hips or hindquarters.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

I'm not biased in any way.....not at all...


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Ahhh Lisa, could never get tired of seeing Diesel pictures, he's such a doll 

I agree with the OP, something very strange has crept into the showring regarding GSD's, and I can't say it looks attractive or normal. I guess breeders have taken it upon themselves to shape the breed into what it is today. When are they going to see that it is NOT normal?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

He looks like a little wolf cub here. So adorable<:

My friend's regular german has the same structure as your guy, but he's mostly black. I've never seen any shepherds with as much sable in their coat as yours. I think it softens their expression. Really pretty.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

My SIL's GSD is a perfect example of this look. His dog was also diagnosed with HD very early. It's hard to say if the slope caused the HD or of the HD caused the slope.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

It's so they can have the overangled look for the show ring, but the result is they have no butt and walk funny - but they can trot in the ring! The spooky ones are generally from the show lines as well, not something I'd ever want to see again!

The working lines tend to look normal and have wider bodies too, the show ones look like a blast of wind will knock them over....


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Diesel is a major cutie!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Diesel is an amazing example of the breed!


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Personally, it hurts me to see these beautiful dogs with the extreme slope. I think its disgraceful what some breeders have done to the GSD and they should be ashamed of themselves. That goes double for any dog show that allows them and their owners/handlers in the ring too.

If you scroll to the middle of this page you will see how humans are destroying this beautiful breed:
http://www.aboutgermanshepherddog.com/page.php?page_id=26


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> Personally, it hurts me to see these beautiful dogs with the extreme slope. I think its disgraceful what some breeders have done to the GSD and they should be ashamed of themselves. That goes double for any dog show that allows them and their owners/handlers in the ring too.


I agree.
This is always a hot button topic in the GSD world. I hate that severely angled back end and it's one issue I have with the AKC - they tend to reward it.
Gunner was from working lines and had almost no slope at all. He also had perfectly healthy hips.
This isn't the best photo of him (it's pretty blurry) but it's one of the few I have on this computer after it crashed. You can still see how straight his back was, though.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I have an acquaintance at a convenience store I drop by every morning before coffee. She owns and shows GSD's. This morning she showed me a picture of one of her dogs (winning btw) -- definitely had that very extreme hind end slope. I'm going to ask her the next time I see her what the relationship is between that and weak hind legs.

Are we sure there is one? Can we pretty much assume that any dog with that kind of structure is going to have weak hind legs?


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Jo Ellen said:


> Are we sure there is one? Can we pretty much assume that any dog with that kind of structure is going to have weak hind legs?


Perhaps not Jo Ellen. I've read where it does and doesn't. I will leave the health concerns to the experts.

From my perspective, I don't see how it improves the overall look of this bred. Why must such a beautiful dog look as though it is in a perpetual squat to poop?

Some say that the GSD is bred this way because the dog must be able to get its hind legs under itself to move quickly in order to work/herd. What is quicker than a Border Collie at work herding? You don't see them with the sloped backs.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> Personally, it hurts me to see these beautiful dogs with the extreme slope. I think its disgraceful what some breeders have done to the GSD and they should be ashamed of themselves. That goes double for any dog show that allows them and their owners/handlers in the ring too.
> 
> If you scroll to the middle of this page you will see how humans are destroying this beautiful breed:
> GSD evolution, evolution of German Shepherd Dog, GSD illustration, German Shepherd Dog history


It looks just awful and I've never understood why this is acceptable. The web page should be named de-evolution!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm definitely going to have a conversation with this lady. In fact, she has a FB page ... I bet I can find a lot there about her dogs, and her breeder.

Interesting topic. 

I will admit that the picture I saw this morning of her show-winning GSD was stunning, such a beautiful dog, even with the extreme slope. I was surprised how much I loved the look, of this particular dog, even though I normally am not that attracted to that kind of severe slope.

I am just generally mesmerized by GSD's, I think. What is up with that :


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

When you see them in the ring, they are trotting on their hocks. I find the american GSD very spooky and fearful. Through the years, I have seen a lot of stable schutzhund patients from German lines.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

C's Mom said:


> Some say that the GSD is bred this way because the dog must be able to get its hind legs under itself to move quickly in order to work/herd. What is quicker than a Border Collie at work herding? You don't see them with the sloped backs.


The thing is, if you look at true working line GSDs, they don't have the sloped back end. That severe angle is typically seen in show lines, so I don't think it has much to do with their ability to work.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Be biased, be biased! Diesel is the most gorgeous GSD I have ever seen. I love that his structure is straight and strong. 

I always cringe watching the GSD's in the show ring, they look disabled like they should be getting medical attention!


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

That slope back is horrific. I've been around enough shepherds to know that HD is rampant in the breed. Rescue work has shown me a higher percentage of GSD's WITH HD than without (my personal experience.)


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Just looking at Bender's picture of that severe hind end slope -- ewwww, that is not attractive at all, and I cannot see how it could even be structurally sound. That is NOT what I saw in the picture I was admiring this morning. Just wanted to be clear on that.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I do know the one 'show' gsd that was doing agilty simply couldn't jump well. As in she struggled with 20 inch jumps. They need to be able to get their back legs under them to jump and she just couldn't do it. It was a shame.

GSD's are why a lot of breeds who aren't/weren't in the mainstream kennel clubs were fighting hard to keep it that way. The argument being the 'show' breeders ruin the breed. But with Border collies I find there's more working breeders who don't bother with clearances so they have dogs with just as many issues. To me, I'd rather give up some herding talent for a history of good hips and clear eyes etc...


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

What do you make of this dog?










This is Clokellys Lagos the 2010 BOB at Crufts.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I think the GSD is in part why pp are suspicious of dog shows - it's terrible what these dogs look and must feel like. There was one in puppy kindergarten with cosmo. He had to take frequent breaks because of his legs and was ultimately put down at 8 months. He came from one of the "top breeders around". The poor puppy waddled with his feet turned out. I sincerely hope that this was just a case of byb and not actually a "reputable" breeder.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> What do you make of this dog?
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He's nice, not as extreme as some but the roach back thing... not my cup of tea! Shame is he'd likely be looked over here for anything because he's not too extreme. There was a gross picture on facebook a while ago I'm trying to find, a puppy that I'd bet wouldn't last long, way too over the top...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> What do you make of this dog?
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The positive thing I can bring up is this dog looks more solid (back legs, rear end assembly) than some dogs I've seen. 

But I'm wondering a little... er... does he have a slightly roached back? Or is it the coloring tricking me?  

ETA - I just saw Bender's comment. I'm glad that's not just me seeing that. !


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Here's another article talking about the GSD and how it has changed over the years... particularly those that are bred for show and not for work.

Working Line German Shepherds


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

Lisa_and_Willow. said:


> What do you make of this dog?
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Only reason I was asking was this dog has a BVA hip score of 3:3. I'm not sure what that would be in the US but over here it is judged on a scale of 0-53 for each hip,( 0 being perfect, 53 meaning the dog has no hip bones) so an even 3 is very good.

Clokellys Lagos is also trained in Schutzhund level 3 (the highest you can get and has passed an 20k endurance test. He clearly is a healthy dog!

But I felt so uncomfortable watching him at Crufts as his back feet seemed to drag on the floor and he is not even an extreme type! 

How do people think these dogs look good?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I wonder if there's any relationship between the extreme slope of the back end and eventual degenerative myelopathy?


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## K9Jessie (Nov 6, 2010)

I am on a GSD board and there are 3 kinds of lines, West German Showline, American Showline, and Working lines(West German, East German(DDR), and Czech). You see the roached and extreme angulation in the showlines(American & German).

I know of quite a few breeders who have beautiful showline dogs, who do not have the extreme angulation or roached backs. They not only show their dogs, but they also work them. Also sometimes its how the dog is stacked. If a breeder has very angulated or roached back dogs I would question that, and more than likely not get a puppy from them. I have seen many showline GSDs who have a nice topline and are not overdone. If they are breeding for a exteme slope or angulation, chances are they are NOT a good breeder. Do research.

Before people make assumptions about the breed, just to let you know there are breeders who take great care of their dogs and don't want them to have "frog legs" and have healthy beautiful dogs.


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