# Cesar Millan



## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I haven't seen him. But I've heard enough about him on here that I should really look it up and try to watch him some. What channels air him?


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

Animal Planet I believe (right?) I think he really does a great job turning "problem" dogs around. It's interesting to see his approach....but I do think he's a bit of an odd-ball.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Cesar's show is on the National Geographic Channel every Friday at 8 pm Eastern.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I can't watch him...but i've his gotten advice from this sight via....was it Monomer??? And I found it all commensense...what I've heard. And it seems to work...in other words it makes sense to Lucky.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

What do you think Jefferyzone? I'm curious if you have a different philosophy...


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Maggie loves him...If i turn it on she will sit and watch the whole show... its funny


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## Leo's Mom (Feb 27, 2006)

I have watched him all the time. We have a real big social life here (sarcasm)nothing better to do then watch dog shows every Friday night. I find him facinating. He really works well with problem dogs. His imitation of dogs looks and personality is a bit odd but who isn't a bit odd? The best thing that I have picked up from him is walking the dog on a treadmill. It took 3 daysw for us to get it right but it was wonderful on cold winter nights!!!

I have wondered what he would think of my little fur family??


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

In our house Cesar is a god!!! The god of all good dogs...

My ReplayTV is set to record all the Dog Whisperer episodes and whenever a new episode has aired... we gather 'round the big screen with beer, popcorn, and chips and all of us, including Sidney, watches the new episode... it's become a regular event.

An interesting side-line is that supposedly, dogs cannot see television because the refresh rate (60Hz) is too slow and thus the persistence time for each individual dot on the screen is too short.

My attempt at a really brief explanation... CRTs ('normal' TVs) are illusion producing devices. A picture is "painted" a line at a time... so really each dot on the screen is there for only a brief period of time (the phosphors on the screen make the dot glow for a bit longer to extend that time a little) but long enough for our brains to be able to see all individually "painted" lines of a picture as if they are there at exactly the same time... to do this the picture must be refreshed every 1/60th of a second (or 60Hz)... yet even for some humans this is not fast enough to complete the illusion and so they see flickering (which is why some people push up the refresh rate on their computer monitors to 72Hz or greater. Well, dogs have an even shorter persistence threshold, which is why they are so good at detecting very fast movement. 'They' say a dog needs around a 90Hz refresh rate to see all the 'painted' lines as if they were 'painted' in the same instant (in other words... to 'watch TV'). Since standard televisions are 60Hz, our dogs tend to see it as "snow" or random dots on the screen (which is what it really is). So when a dog appears to be reacting to something (like another dog) on the TV screen, he really is just reacting to the sounds emanating from the TV.

After saying all that... I still think Sidney sees some TV, I'm almost dead sure of that when I watch him react to our Sony TV upstairs. However since LCDs have all the dots present at the same time, for the full amount of time, dogs (in fact, all animals) will have no problem seeing what's on TV if you are using a LCD or DLP or plasma. We have a LCD front-screen projector in our basement "theater" that projects onto a 118" diagonal screen ...and Sidney loves to watch it ...the dog shows most of all. Did I mention... Cesar's a god at our house.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I first started watching him about 2 months ago. And I have to admit i turned it on with what was initially a negative attitude. But I have to admit that I have picked up some things from the show and i basically agree with most things he says and does. Basically he takes folks that treat dogs like people and gets them to treat them like dogs. He really trains the owners more than he trains the dogs. 
I love the way he makes his hand into a mouth and bites the dogs.
I also think I see the same show every week. It seems to always be a little agressive dog that the people just cannot handle. 
And he gets right in the little snots' faces (the dogs, not the handlers).. He also uses this huge pack of dogs that he has (I suppose people have left them with him for behavior modification). He takes the antisocial dog into the pack and lets them do some of the training. And he has some pretty rough looking characters in that pack. Several Pit Bulls and some very large German Shepherds.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Monomer.....I started seeing some randoms dots after rereading your post for the THIRD time. Ultimately...you're saying my Lucky isn't REALLY experiencing the wonders of the tube as I had thought. How crushing.


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

Monomer-
I'd always heard the same explanation you provided...that dogs pretty much cannot see what we see on television, just a flickering of light. I believed that until i got vinny. He is infatuated with dogs on television. At first i thought it was just when he heard barking or "dog noises" on tv, but he reacts even if there is no animal sounds being made. He would follow the dogs around the screen when the Westminster Dog show was on TV, he is fixated when the Cottonelle commercial with the Yellow labs comes on. It's really cute. I'm convinced they can pick up some pictures, or maybe some dogs are just better adapted to doing seeing TV images? Who knows?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Lucky's mom said:


> Monomer.....I started seeing some randoms dots after rereading your post for the THIRD time. Ultimately...you're saying my Lucky isn't REALLY experiencing the wonders of the tube as I had thought. How crushing.


I didn't actually say that, it was an illusion... "THEY" said that dogs cannot possibly see TV... THEY were channeling through me, and I was merely the medium.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

LauraEyes2 said:


> ...At first i thought it was just when he heard barking or "dog noises" on tv, but he reacts even if there is no animal sounds being made. He would follow the dogs around the screen when the Westminster Dog show was on TV, he is fixated when the Cottonelle commercial with the Yellow labs comes on...


I know, we've had the exact same experience here as well... Sidney will even follow horses around on the screen and bark at them... with the SOUND OFF!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

greg bell said:


> ...And he has some pretty rough looking characters in that pack. Several Pit Bulls and some very large German Shepherds.


No kidding... did you see the Pit with only one eye... he really looks like he was a real BAD A$$ in his former life.


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I always heard they couldn't see tv, but at times mine will lay and watch it and i never knew if they were watching the picture or listening..
the one thing that I experienced that made me wonder was one time I was in a motel in Kentucky at a field trial and had the tv on.. it was some kind of news program and they had those ducks that spend the night on top of a hotel and ride the elevator down and walk out the front door to the hotel pond.. 
well casey was seemingly watching those ducks.. and when they walked away from the camera and out the door she jumped up and ran around and looked behind the televison.. made me wonder..


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## LauraEyes2 (Sep 16, 2005)

LOL Vinny does that too. If there's a dog barking on TV he looks behind the TV set to see if the dog's behind the TV. It's too funny. Gotta love Puppy logic.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Maggie goes right up to the screen and barks.....like she had just walk up the the dog ..in person.....


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> What do you think Jefferyzone? I'm curious if you have a different philosophy...


I think that one of the most important things Cesar is doing is explaining basic dog behavior, and how it differs from human behavior, to the masses. Before his show, there wasn't anyone in front of the TV audience who was illustrating how a dog's expectations can be so different from those of his people. Anything that sheds light on how to deal with common problems is a good thing, in my opinion.

It's also very interesting to see how Cesar introduces basic energy work to people, and how he teaches it to people who have no idea of what they are actually doing, and yet they enjoy success. There are many layers to his approach, and I floated this question out there because I was curious about how everyone on the forum feels.

Last year, I mentioned his name to a fellow rescue volunteer who proceeded to launch into a tirade against Cesar and his show, stating that he uses some harsh methods sometimes, such as "flooding." The example she used was a show that was about a small dog who was afraid of the toaster; Cesar followed the dog around and popped the toaster till the dog was exhausted.

Her reaction surprised me, and when Monomer mentioned Cesar in a recent post, I thought it would be a good question for the group.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

jeffreyzone said:


> ...There are many layers to his approach...


I love the way you expressed that... that's the best description of the man and his approach I've heard... the more you watch him the more you begin to understand and slowly realize just how brilliant he is. After watching a couple of episodes for the first time everyone seems to remark that its all just common sense and there is nothing remarkable about the guy... but if you continue to watch more and more episodes you come to realize that there's so much more to his methods ...And attitude is very important when dealing with dogs... just watch Cesar... much of his success with these troubled dogs comes from the attitude he projects, it even has a noticeable influence on the owners as well.



jeffreyzone said:


> ...stating that he uses some harsh methods sometimes, such as "flooding." ....


This is a common method used by many respected animal (and human) behaviorists... its usually termed "desensitization". That was a great episode wasn't it?


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Disclaimer: I am not intending to belittle or otherwise insult anyone. This is only my opinion and unless otherwise noted is not even directed specifically at anyone.

I think some of Cesar's things are good. He seems to have some effective ways of interrupting unwanted behavior (i.e. the "psst" sound), and I agree 100% with his idea that behavior problems are usually the owner's fault not the dog's. But ...

My main issue with him is that he is too quick to ascribe a behavior problem to "dominance." For example, on one episode the dog pulled on the leash and he ascribed it to dominance. We have no idea what is going on in the dog's brain, but there are several explanations for leash pulling that from a scientific training standpoint are much more likely than dominance. Opposition reflex and never having been fully trained not to are two of the most common ones.

I also don't agree with his use of alpha rolling (re-read the disclaimer at the top again if you have to). http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm



> This is a common method used by many respected animal (and human) behaviorists... its usually termed "desensitization".


Flooding and systematic desensitization are two different things. Flooding would be taking someone afraid of snakes and putting them in a room full of snakes. Systematic desensitization would be having a snake 50' away and giving them chocolate as long as they act calmly, then moving the snake closer and closer. Flooding generally is more stressful for the dog and can do more harm than good with some (not all) dogs.


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Thanks, Katie. I'd never heard the term "flooding" before it was used by my rescue friend. I didn't see the show, but the scene she described was hard to believe, because I'd never seen Cesar do anything that I found objectionable. But I think she was telling me the truth----or at least, she was describing what she saw.

I believe that Cesar probably does a lot more subtle things when he is working on a consultation basis, away from the cameras. I agree that on TV, he keeps his explanations simple, such as using the dominance issue as a solution to a wide variety of behaviors. One reason for this could be that he is dumbing things down so that his show won't get canned like the Pet Psychic's did!  

After reading a lot of Suzanne Clothier's writings and attending one of her seminars, I have a different view than the one I originally had of Cesar's approach. Initially, I thought Cesar had 100 percent of everything dogs needed. But now, it seems to me like he's got 80 percent of a full approach, but the approach is missing one vital piece of the puzzle: The dog's feelings. Suzanne has written that you can bully or intimidate a dog into doing whatever you want, but the dog will never love you for it. She advocates earning your dog's cooperation. That makes a lot of sense to me, and while I am not saying that Cesar bullies or intimidates, there is no doubt that he uses some very serious and sophisticated energy work when he's persuading a dog to behave the way he wants. Nothing wrong with that----Cesar's energy work has kept him from being mauled many a time, no doubt.

So, it's good that we have sources from which we can pick up bits of info that work for us. I've learned a lot from watching Cesar, and I've learned yet more from being neutral and exploring other people's methods. I am glad that National Geographic took a chance on airing "The Dog Whisperer." We really need more of this kind of information in the mainstream.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Katie did you actually see that episode with the Sheltie who ran around in circles and barked incessantly whenever someone tried to use the toaster? Remember, he actually bit his owners so they were afraid to even use their own toaster or pick up the phone, etc. All Cesar did was NOT cater to the dog's obsession and refused to let the dog keep him from the toaster. Cesar merely popped the toaster regardless of the dog's reactions and as the dog fled out of the room Cesar merely picked up the toaster and followed the dog around popping it until the dog finally got use to it. And the bottomline to this is he got results within minutes and never harmed the dog. I believe the term "flooding" is someone's 'neuvo' coined term for what is also termed "desensitization"... example: if a dog continuously chases cars, you take him to a highway where there are lots of speeding cars... so many and so fast that he is over-whelmed and cannot possibly single any car out long enough to give chase... gradually over time you introduce him to slower traffic and fewer cars until the urge to chase a single car has been completely extinguished... this is call "desensitization" by the behaviorists, where under your definition it is an example of "flooding" which, if anything, represents a sub-set of the "desensitization" method... no matter because it works and it is not the least bit cruel... unless you pretend to know what is going on in the dog's mind. I would venture to say that if you tried to curb a dog's car chasing behavior by starting with a car very far away and bringing it closer and closer it would take a very long time indeed, if ever, to curtail the car chasing, especially if you are NOT giving negative corrections, just how many 'clicks' and how many treats would you have to give anyway?... have you ever known anyone to use this method for 'unlearning' a car chasing instinct in a dog and achieve success? I know for a fact, Greg Bell's shock collar would 'fix' the problem in less than 5-minutes. So of the 3 methods I've just described which do you think would work faster, be more reliable AND be the most humane?

The bottomline here is Cesar's success rate... all those dogs in 'his pack' were condemned to die by the shelters where he picked them up at... 'professionals' (vets and behaviorists alike) had deemed that these dogs could never to be made trustworthy, they could NOT be rehabilitated, and each one was slated for death (many within the same week)... Cesar was their last hope, their only hope... if you've watched the show, you've seen his pack, do any of them look dangerous to you? He runs them out in public off-leash every morning from 6AM to 10AM before he begins his workday, that's how Dennis Rodman met him and he then got introduced to his Hollywood clientèle. I believe Cesar is able to calm dogs and rehabilitate dogs because he really understands dogs on their own terms and communicates as another dog would... a leader dog, that is. So many other behaviorists keep trying to interpret dog behaviors from a human perspective. Its also important to remember Cesar is NOT a dog trainer (he says this over and over)... a dog trainer teaches a dog to do 'tricks'... sit, stay, down, come, etc and many of his clients' dogs are obedience trained yet their owners canNOT control them... Cesar practices 'dog psychology' (again, he says this over and over) he rehabilitates dogs and often within minutes and even seconds and then teaches the owners how to do the same... quite unlike any other dog behaviorists I've ever heard of or read a book about or visited a website on...

Personally I think there is a whole industry of "dog whisperer" wannabes that are envious of his successes... especially knowing that he was an illegal immigrant unable to speak a word of English just 15-years ago and today he has been seen by 80-million Americans, many of whom love the work he's done with dogs... I'm one.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

> My main issue with him is that he is too quick to ascribe a behavior problem to "dominance." For example, on one episode the dog pulled on the leash and he ascribed it to dominance. We have no idea what is going on in the dog's brain, but there are several explanations for leash pulling that from a scientific training standpoint are much more likely than dominance. Opposition reflex and never having been fully trained not to are two of the most common ones.


I


> believe that Cesar probably does a lot more subtle things when he is working on a consultation basis, away from the cameras. I agree that on TV, he keeps his explanations simple, such as using the dominance issue as a solution to a wide variety of behaviors. One reason for this could be that he is dumbing things down so that his show won't get canned like the Pet Psychic's did!


I love the Cesar Millan, but like Katie said, some of his evaluations and solutions seems too "quick" to me. I agree with Jeffrey, I am sure each consultation is shortened and simplified for TV, but I would rather see the whole process. I think the show could be improved by showing more of each consultation. Maybe devote one whole show to one session, rather than splitting it into two fifteen-minute segments. I would be very interested to see how Cesar decides the "problem," and I would especially like to see how he follows up with each family after "curing" their dog. 

That said, though, it is a great show. He has a common-sense philosophy that is really lacking among pet owners today. Go Cesar!


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

In virtually every show I have seen, the people have allowed the dogs to take over. I don't know if the folks are afraid of the dogs or are afraid of hurting their feelings... He simply comes in and takes charge. Whether you use his method of "taking charge" or someone else's doesn't much matter I don't think. You need the dog's respect. You cannot be afraid of the dog or worry about hurting it's feelings if it does one of those submissive behaviors. You approach it calmly and businesslike. 
I just roll laughing when those 4 lb dogs get highly agressive and have their owners backed into a corner. 
The impressive part to me is that he also deals with agressive pit bulls. and seemingly quite well. I probably wouldnt want to deal with that personally.. nor would I know if I could ever fully trust them even after his behavior modification techniques.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Cesar is a "take charge" kinda guy... and I think that's off-putting to some people. But then all leader dogs are "take charge" kinda dogs... the whole process Cesar uses is 'natural' to the dog world and most of his client's dogs are very confused because they have doggie instincts but have been treated as humans from the start... they're complete mental wrecks that end up displaying abnormal behaviors, like spinning in endless circles, or running non-stop for hours, or swimming uncontrollably, or full of multiple obsessions, or possessive behaviors or the worst possible outlet... AGGRESSION toward other animals and humans. In these worst cases Cesar employs the "power of the pack"... not just any pack of dogs but a STABLE pack... his own pack of dogs. Cesar's pack in now up to over 40 dogs. Back before he became the celebrate's dog behaviorist of choice his pack was more modest of around 20 dogs. He literally 'runs' his dogs in public everyday (Monday thru Friday for 4 hours a day... puts most of us to shame, wouldn't you say?) without any leashes, where allowed (actually he takes them in a 17-passenger van to locales where there are no strict leash laws), and runs them both alone through the hills and among other dogs and their owners and through parks. What attracted Dennis Rodman to this little Mexican dude was seeing him walking with his motley crew of dogs and watching every dog always staying behind Cesar, they moved when he moved and they sat and lounged when he stop. He's never have a single mishap with any of his dogs on these walks... and from the newspaper and magazine articles I estimate he's been doing this for over 10-years. I think I would absolutely trust his dogs before I would anyone else's... but it really depends upon who the 'leader of the pack' is, ya know what I mean? Given back to a 'weak or non-existent leader' I'm sure they would eventually revert. Remember Cesar may 'fix' the dog but he always TRAINS THE OWNER and that's the 'real permanent fix' and in his new one-hour episodes he does do a follow-up on every single case.

I think the consultations that you see are pretty much all there is (though I'm sure they edit out the more uncomfortable moments... like when Cesar starts to lose patience with his clients or the boring moments when his clients go off on a tangent)... if you watch the program enough you come to realize that Cesar's a 'hands-on' kinda guy... and to that I can relate.


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## for_my_golden (Oct 20, 2005)

*Caeser*

Me & hubby are both Caesar fans. We recently rescued a new puppy...JT and he is 8 weeks old and we are using Caesar's training tips to help with his training, socialization and acclaimation to sounds.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

*Cesar--he's cute!*

I watch his show sometimes. I would watch it more except that I forget that it's on.
A comment on his being the leader of "his" pack: I remember one show where a woman had 2 dogs but was openly favoring 1 of the dogs. When he pointed this out to her she replied something to the effect 'didn't he have a second favorite dog?' When he said 'No' she asked him 'well, which one was #1' and he just looked at her as if she had 2 heads and said, (in the cocky way that only he could have said it) "*I* am #1."
Cathy


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

well, he practices what he preaches..


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

greg bell said:


> well, he practices what he preaches..


And... he preaches what he practices...

(Well, it did sound clever when I first thought of it... :doh: )


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## Miss Daisy's Mom (Jun 29, 2005)

I like this season's shows much better than the last. The episodes are longer, and they are showing him doing much more with his clients and their dogs other than just "taking them for a walk". I was beginning to get real bored and had stopped watching because that seemed to always be his stock solution - walking on a leash. But it's way different now, and I have TiVo set to record every episode. I look forward to watching it, and have implemented some of his techniques with my own dogs.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

WOW! Friends of ours just asked if we were going to the Dog Whisperer seminar (Cesar Millan that is) coming to Michigan... I just now checked the website... have you guys seen how many dates and expensive seating are already SOLD OUT... I was flabbergasted... this guy really IS popular!

And the profits from the Michigan seminar will be donated to White Shepherd Genetics Project... what's that all about?


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## Liams_Mommy (Jan 11, 2006)

I really enjoy Cesar Millan. We look forward to his show every week. His training methods remind me a lot of the puppy class we took. The trainer there was very much like him in the methods she used. Any of the training we have done with Liam has been all 'praise based' (no treats or clicker) and we find that it works very well for us. It may take a little longer, but we are seeing results. Plus, he really loves praise, so that helps a lot too.

Does anyone here watch Dr. Stanley Coren's show 'Good Dog'? We really enjoy that one as well. It seems to follow the same format, although I don't find it as aggressive as the Dog Whisperer.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Liams_Mommy said:


> ...Does anyone here watch Dr. Stanley Coren's show 'Good Dog'?...


No, never heard of it... what channel is it on???? I swear, I will watch anything with the word "dog" in the show's title.


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## Liams_Mommy (Jan 11, 2006)

monomer said:


> No, never heard of it... what channel is it on???? I swear, I will watch anything with the word "dog" in the show's title.


It airs on Pet TV and the Life Network here in Canada. I watch it all the time...and also everything with 'dog' in it too


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## Miss Daisy's Mom (Jun 29, 2005)

Monomer, what is the web site's address? Is there anything in Colorado??


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Miss Daisy's Mom said:


> Monomer, what is the web site's address? Is there anything in Colorado??


I was just looking at it too...

http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I don't see anything scheduled for Colorado or Washington State....:uhoh:


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## Miss Daisy's Mom (Jun 29, 2005)

Thanks for the link, Rick. Nope, nothing scheduled for around here. Holy Moly, $85 to $95 per ticket?! Wow. That's way more than my son's concert tickets ever cost!! LOL And he sees big name bands, too!! :eyecrazy:


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

> this is call "desensitization" by the behaviorists, where under your definition it is an example of "flooding" which, if anything, represents a sub-set of the "desensitization" method...


"Flooding refers to physically forcing a dog into an overwhelming situation he or she is afraid of until the dog “shuts down” or the behavior is suppressed." (from http://www.naturespet.com/dogwhisperer.html ) "Flooding: prolonged exposition to the stimulus until any negative reaction is cancelled" (from http://www.superdog.com/aggressiveness.htm I don't endorse any of the stuff on that link) "Flooding In this technique, the dog is exposed continuously to the specific fear-eliciting stimulus and kept in the situation until it shows little or no signs of fear." (from http://www.kibblesnbits.com/dogcare/article.aspx?i=13 ) 

http://www.puplife.com/dogsupplies/dwdvd.html


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## Miss Daisy's Mom (Jun 29, 2005)

Well, after doing my own googling and research, I gotta say that I have found nothing that says flooding is a good technique in training dogs. In fact, I don't think I found even one site that affirmed it as being effective AND good for the dog. 

I think what we need to remember when watching/reading anyone, is that not everything they do/say is going to be all right or all wrong. It's like being an informed patient or consumer and getting second and third opinions on stuff, then deciding what is right for us and our animals. After reading up on flooding, I have to agree that it doesn't sound like a good thing, whereas desensitization and counter-conditioning sound like a much more effective way of getting the desired behavior without harming the dog's psyche.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Flooding works for some dogs, but with most dogs it creates "learned helplessness." This is when the dog doesn't know how to make the aversive go away so he just shuts down. With flooding, the dog tries different things to make the aversive go away (growling, snapping, etc). Then the dog shuts down (stops barking, lies down, etc). The trainer thinks the flooding worked because the dog isn't growling/barking/snapping anymore. But, you now have learned helplessness. The dog now thinks that nothing he can do will make the aversive go away so he might as well just lay there. It's hard to train a dog who thinks he has no control over what happens to him, either by positive reinforcement or correction-based techniques.


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Oh, I love watching this man. Although, i've not watched him in awhile. He knows what he's doing that is no doubt, but I also believe a big portion of it is he takes charge of the animal and they feel there is no need for the them too protect, or be afraid because he is showing them his strength in body language as well as in actions.

As far as flooding goes, I think if it is done correctly it works. I don't think it would fit for all dogs though, I think Ceaser evaluates the dog before he begins to work with it as well as talks with the owners to get information. Dogs really shouldn't feel helpless, the owner/trainers job is to show the dog he/she is the protector, the dog need not be....nor act in that fashion. I think this is the message he is sending from accross that leash the minute he takes hold, as well as confidence. Of course, timing is everything and he knows to watch for the signs in body language and use the timing in the correct manner.

I'd love too see this man and listen to him, and watch! He's got something, and I think it he knows how read them. I love how he runs them and believes in exercise to keep them happy. I think he runs his dogs 12 miles once a week, or something like that, i'd have to back check that. Anyway, they all follow and they all obey off leash.


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## Miss Daisy's Mom (Jun 29, 2005)

Goldndust said:


> As far as flooding goes, I think if it is done correctly it works. I don't think it would fit for all dogs though, I think Ceaser evaluates the dog before he begins to work with it as well as talks with the owners to get information. Dogs really shouldn't feel helpless, the owner/trainers job is to show the dog he/she is the protector, the dog need not be....nor act in that fashion. I think this is the message he is sending from accross that leash the minute he takes hold, as well as confidence. Of course, timing is everything and he knows to watch for the signs in body language and use the timing in the correct manner.


Point well taken. I'm sure, as with almost everything, it is completely subjective. I'm also sure that there is A LOT of evaluating that goes on way before he begins working with the dog and its owners - things they don't ever show us.



Goldndust said:


> I'd love too see this man and listen to him, and watch! He's got something, and I think it he knows how read them. I love how he runs them and believes in exercise to keep them happy. I think he runs his dogs 12 miles once a week, or something like that, i'd have to back check that. Anyway, they all follow and they all obey off leash.


I believe Monomer said he runs them Mon. thru Fri. for 4 hours every morning! I, too, would love to see him in action. I really do believe he knows dog psychology very, very well!


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## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

I have one very important question.. is it Cesar, Ceasar, Caesar, Ceaser....etc????


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

web site says Cesar Millan


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Well, except for a little time in the afternoon I've been busy working my tail off and have to get to bed so I can get up very early tomorrow and do it again... so I have just enough time to respond to one thread and this is it...

At the end of work tonight I was able to visit the forum (as a guest only because of the computer I was on) and after reading the latest to this thread I did some quick little searches... it seems Katie is right technically... This is what I learned: the larger category is called counter-conditioning (in human psychology) and the two main methods within this category are called systematic desensitization (1958 wolpe) and implosion therapy (stampfl 1957)...later named flooding (polin). All of these therapies are to help a patient deal with phobias and anxiety. Flooding is a recognized and respected and often used therapy, it has also been successfully adapted to being use to create an aversion to something. However some patients cannot handle flooding without causing more of the same psychological trauma and in these cases systematic desensitization is used... not always with success however. If you now apply this to dogs... counter-conditioning would not seem to apply in the car chasing scenario I offered up only because its NOT a phobia or anxiety induced... so what? the methods I describe, though technically do not fit the narrow definition, are applicable as counter-conditioning solutions. Did the Sheltie have a phobia to the toaster? to the phone? to visitors? The little dog only barked and ran in circles when someone wanted to use it so maybe it was domination, so was the little Sheltie trying to dominate his owners?... etc, etc, etc... yada, yada, yada... bla, bla, bla. Okay ... gather 'round now... People listen up... 
*THIS IS ALL HUMAN PSYCHOLOGY BEING APPLIED TO DOGS!!!! GET IT????? *Cesar uses DOG psychology on DOGS. Ever see a Pack Leader Dog praise another dog? offer it treats? lure it into doing his bidding? No, he growls, stares down, struts his stuff, puts 'teeth-to-neck' when necessary and all the subordinate dogs understand and respect that... they do NOT have psychological breakdowns or get traumatized and 'shut-down'... A pack leader dog does not use 'positive only methods' to control his pack and yet the pack is calm, submissive, and I dare say HAPPY within the pack and not depressed or traumatized or any other such silly human notions. And these methods have been working for pack leaders (both human and animal) for literally tens of thousands of years! ...but little did they know, they were doing it all wrong? I got a word for that, Baloney!

The man gets results and quickly... you cannot argue (without looking foolish) with his successes.

Katie I noticed you never responded to anything other than symantics... did you actually see that Sheltie episode? Which method would you pick? And as far as "Dog Whisperer wannabes"... you need look no further than your very first posted link. Before I ever knew about Cesar, I read excerpts from that guy's book and put it back on the self, I rented his DVD, still not impressed... he's like all the others... trying to apply human psychology to dogs... nothing new or remarkable... in fact he claims to be the ORIGINAL DOG WHISPERER, as if there can only be one... how childish. Cesar is very different from the rest... he actually communicates with dogs using dog psychology. I'm sorry but the whole "positive methods only" fad is silly bunk! Some of the worst trained dogs I've seen in the last 5-years belonged to 'clicker' and 'positive only methods' advocates. Cesar said it best when he told a newspaper reporter... 'I could never earn a living doing this in Mexico, L.A. is the only place where people would pay money to have their dogs trained'....... meaning, people have become so silly in their attempts to treat dogs with human psychology that they create neurotic dogs and then condemn them as not able to be rehabilitated...

...and then as a last resort Cesar comes along and treats them as a pack leader would and, often within minutes, the dogs are "fixed"... and they pay him money to do this, and he is simply amazed! I'm with Cesar on this one.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

> did you actually see that Sheltie episode? Which method would you pick?


No, I didn't see the Sheltie episode. I would have to see the dog doing it (not the edited TV version but the actual dog) to know exactly what was triggering it. But it would be fairly simple to use systematic desensitization once you knew what the dog was reacting to. It sounds like the dog was probably afraid of the noise the toaster makes, and was trying to keep the owners from the toaster so it wouldn't make the noise. I don't think it's humane to follow a dog around with something that scares the dog. 

That is a perfect example of a situation that can create learned helplessness. The dog tries to avoid the aversive (the toaster noise) by keeping the person away from it. When that doesn't work, the dog tries to run away. If that doesn't work for long enough, the dog might try a few other things, but after a while you will get learned helplessness.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Oh, and I don't train my dogs with human psychology. I train my dogs with animal psychology. Positive reinforcement works on any animal including humans. Dogs, cats, whales, dolphins, horses, pigeons. Are you familiar with the work of the Baileys? They used the same methods to train pigeons to guide bombs in WW2, cats to sit-stay for 30+ minutes without meowing with every distraction imaginable, ravens to fly guided by a laser into enemy territory and take a picture using a tiny camera around their neck and then return, wild-caught adult dolphins to perform behaviors in open water with no boats nearby for up to 36 hours, dogs to detect mines and trip-wires, and house cats to spy on the enemy including hold still with guns shooting and dogs snarling right in their face. In 50 years of training with over 15,000 animals, they used positive punishment (aka correction) less than a dozen times and that was at the request of their clients. Their training methods were developed based on years of experimentation and scientific data. They chose positive reinforcement because it works.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Thanks for all of your responses Katie and your honest answers... 

I actually have well over a dozen books on understanding dog behavior and dog behavior modification in regards to applied classical and operant conditioning, on reading 'dog signs', and various training books by various behavior 'experts' in addition to several 'clicker books', a VHS tape on 'clicker training' and half a dozen various DVDs on dog training in general. Cesar is very different from all the others...

I was already doing many of the things Cesar espouses but there are two 'new' additions for me, inspired by Cesar, these have been the addition of a daily 'power walk' in the Cesar tradition and I think I've developed the 'Cesar attitude'... a month ago down at the dog park, I broke up a fierce dog fight between two boxers (they were a team) and a large white German Shepard, while the owners shouted and screamed to no avail and everyone else was frozen in horror and fear... within two seconds I was 'steaming' over to the fight-site with unbelievable confidence and as I approached the combatants (within 3-feet) I clapped my hands once while shouting "NO!" just once and the dogs instantly stopped and jumped back where their respective owners then immediately grabbed their collars. The whole incident lasted probably about 10 or 12 seconds (the length of time it took me to clear the ~200-foot distance)... I surprised myself as well as all the on-lookers. From that point on I've begun to realize that I am fearless when handling nippy and biting dogs and I can make these dogs mind when their owners are completely helpless... I don't know what to make of it, other than I notice I have a different mind-set going into certain situations... I don't know what else to call it except "Cesar's attitude".

By the way, Katie, my earlier thanks to you for your honest responses were in earnest... I'm not being snide or sarcastic in the least. You've expressed your ideas as you see them and have made your points... from my point of view though, your responses have, I believe, allowed me to make my points very clear... I really don't believe I could have done it otherwise.


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## DogMomAbby (Jul 6, 2005)

I really like watching him & his methods. My obedience trainer has met him & worked with him too, so she has seen the way he really works with dogs. What you see on TV hasn't been edited much - my trainer by working with him says he really does get the dog's respect quickly - and my trainer does too. 

A rottie came on to my property a couple of years ago & attacked one of my male goldens (Josh), along with an Akita. I was able to get the Akita to totally back off before he attacked by getting his attention & his respect immediately. I was able to call Josh off the fight in less than 2 minutes & they were in full attack mode. Penny was just 10 weeks old & Josh was protecting us. I would never have been able to do that without learning the right techniques.

Personally I don't think there's one way that works for everyone. Personally, I've trained with food & I hated it - I'll never train that way again, but that's just me. We all learn what is best for us by our own experiences. I hate "treat-training".

I truly believe in the 30-minute daily walk no matter what, every single day. It makes a huge difference in the dog's mental attitude.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

DogMomAbby said:


> ...Personally, I've trained with food & I hated it - I'll never train that way again, but that's just me. We all learn what is best for us by our own experiences. I hate "treat-training"...


In general, I dislike using food treats as well... but food treats can be really helpful to 'lure with' when you need to establish a 'trick' behavior for the first time. Food treats with and without 'clicker' and all 'positive training methods' in general, I believe are the methods of choice when trying to teach very long intricate routines... in fact, I'm not sure it can't be done any other way (in any practical sense). Have you ever seen any "free-style"? that's partner dancing with your dog to music... on the national level, its one of the most beautiful things to watch... I don't know this for a fact, but I'm venturing a guess that at that level, they are all 'clicker' trained or at the least some other type of 'positive training method' is used that almost invariably will use food treats at some point. By the way, I've seen tennis balls and playtime, etc used in place of treats but for the most part, anything other than a food treat is often too impractical. But for some simple stuff, and especially instinctual/mental behaviors and control problem behaviors, food treats either don't work very well or are too impractical or the methods too convoluted to be of use to the average dog owner.
By the way, so my position on such matters is not mis-construed... behaviors such as sit, come, down, stay, etc I think of as 'trick' behaviors, where for the most part, positive methods are the most practical methods to use (a 100%-reliable recall command is probably THE major exception here and 'collar jerks' seem to work well in heeling as well)... and then there are the mental/instinctual/problem behaviors like jumping, biting the mailman, running in circles, digging in the backyard, etc. to which I've now 'chucked-out' all the human psychological based 'garbage' and instead deffer to Cesar's 'dog psychology' methods.


DogMomAbby said:


> ...I truly believe in the 30-minute daily walk no matter what, every single day. It makes a huge difference in the dog's mental attitude.


Sidney always gets his 'walkies', always has... in addition to an hour or two ...or three ...or even four of other more aerobic-type of exercising. The difference now is the "power" component to the walk... Sidney is on a 12-inch leash (that's right 12 INCHES!) and his head is always within a foot of my left thigh... though I will occasionally stop for short 'sniff breaks' and 'poop/pee breaks', for the most part we move at a brisk clip and he never gets in front of me... NEVER! Sidney's very good at this type of walking and people are constantly slowing down and pointing, waving, and smiling at the two of us (of course it is a small town so I do know some of the folks but never-the-less, this didn't happen much before our 'power walks' began)... I think people are impressed because we appear more as a team and Sidney's heads-up stance and being right by my side is something most people would like to do with their dog but believe its not possible. Also I now strut with a more up-right posture, always looking forward, the leash is at slack (you can hear the jingling of the D-ring of the collar against the snap-ring of the leash... a sound people with 'pullers' never hear) ...in fact, the feeling I get during our 'power walks' is confident, strong, relaxed, powerful... well you know, like a pack leader and I think this finds its way down the leash into Sidney.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

As I have said before, I do think some of Cesar's methods of interrupting unwanted behavior are effective. Armed with these methods, you would feel confident when dealing with unwanted behavior because you know you have effective ways of stopping it. And from some of my other posts you know that I definitely recommend exercise to help with many behavior problems.



> I was already doing many of the things Cesar espouses but there are two 'new' additions for me, inspired by Cesar, these have been the addition of a daily 'power walk' in the Cesar tradition and I think I've developed the 'Cesar attitude'... a month ago down at the dog park, I broke up a fierce dog fight between two boxers (they were a team) and a large white German Shepard, while the owners shouted and screamed to no avail and everyone else was frozen in horror and fear... within two seconds I was 'steaming' over to the fight-site with unbelievable confidence and as I approached the combatants (within 3-feet) I clapped my hands once while shouting "NO!" just once and the dogs instantly stopped and jumped back where their respective owners then immediately grabbed their collars. The whole incident lasted probably about 10 or 12 seconds (the length of time it took me to clear the ~200-foot distance)... I surprised myself as well as all the on-lookers. From that point on I've begun to realize that I am fearless when handling nippy and biting dogs and I can make these dogs mind when their owners are completely helpless... I don't know what to make of it, other than I notice I have a different mind-set going into certain situations... I don't know what else to call it except "Cesar's attitude".


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