# Looking for a natural breeder....



## sharipayne (Jan 24, 2014)

Hi

Our family is committed to living as "green" and organically as possible, and we are looking for a breeder who has the same organic/non-gmo/natural protocol for their dogs. Any recommendations you all could give me would be very much appreciated. We love the golden breed and cannot wait to add one to our family! We are located in Tennessee.

Thank you all in advance!

Shari


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

If you could elaborate on what that means in terms of expectations for the breeder we might be able to provide more direction 


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Like a breeder who feeds raw food?? A breeder who breeds their dogs naturally?? What exactly do you mean?


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## sharipayne (Jan 24, 2014)

From my the online reading I have done, my preferences would be a breeder who feeds a raw or non-gmo diet, and gives limited vaccinations. I should have used the word "holistic" instead of natural. It is also very important to us to have our puppy raised from birth without exposure to harmful chemicals such as chemical cleaning products, pesticides, or being exposed prematurely to germs at the vet office.

Thank you for your quick reply!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Most breeders use limited vaccines. I would NEVER not vaccinate puppies because the parvo virus is very deadly. 

I would be more concerned on health clearances from both parents.

Good Luck in your search.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Prism Goldens is a member of this forum and I know she feeds raw, but I'm not sure about the rest. Maybe she will see this thread and chime in. I think she's in your corner of the U.S. I know a few breeders out here in Colorado who fit your description. How far are you willing to travel?


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## sharipayne (Jan 24, 2014)

Creekside Retrievers - New Salem, North Carolina

I just found this breeder. I am not 100% positive, but I think we might go with them. I like the more darker gold goldens better though.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Have you looked into somebody like Shilo Goldens? Or talked to Jennifer over there?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Hi, 
I am (today) in Tennessee, but next week will be in Florida! this packing thing is not much fun.
I do feed raw, don't know any other TN breeders who do though - at least not Golden breeders. There is a listing site- NaturalRearing.com ~ Home for breeders such as myself who do limited or particular vaccine protocols, I would never not vaccinate for the big three(parvo, distemper, rabies) but I do think seperating the elements and giving them one at a time so the body can mount a resistence to one thing at a time is a good idea, so that's what I do. 
Shilo is a raw feeder, but she's in Ohio, actually there's a FB list for raw-fed Goldens, you might look there for other breeders. The one you mentioned-Creekside- their cardiac clearances do not meet the level of the Code of Ethics, and I don't actually see any of the 'normal eyes' on CERF or OFA. Not that they don't have them, but they are not listed. I'm personally prejudiced against breeders who don't do anything with their dogs but breed them, and to each other, instead of searching out the best stud dog for the bitch but that's my own prejudice and your mileage may differ! Good luck on your search, do find someone whose litter's sire and dam have the Code of Ethics bare minimum of clearances, though!


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Shilo in Ohio was what came to mind for me as well.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Marta Spry, Pine Mountain feeds raw and is in WV. Marcy at Ruffwater in PA feeds her adults 1/2 raw and 1/2 kibble and uses minimal vaccines in adults. These are just two that came to mind in addition to Jennifer Kraczwyn at Shilo. 


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## sharipayne (Jan 24, 2014)

Prism Goldens said:


> I'm personally prejudiced against breeders who don't do anything with their dogs but breed them, and to each other, instead of searching out the best stud dog for the bitch but that's my own prejudice and your mileage may differ!


Forgive me, I am quite new to this dog breeder thing, so I apologize for my ignorance!

You say you are prejudiced against dog breeders who do nothing but breed their dogs - do you recommend I get our new puppy from a breeder involved in showing?

And should I choose a breeder who uses outside males to breed to their females rather than the males they already own?

I am torn between Shilo Goldens and Creekside Retrievers. I am impressed with and commend Shilo's health protocols. But Creekside is slightly closer to us and I love that they raise their puppies around other animals and feed them products raised on their organic farm, and while I like Shilo's approach better, Creekside's doesn't differ that much. Any advice on this would be great... 

And again, I am sorry if these are stupid questions. This will be a long term commitment for our family and I simply want our puppy's life to begin as healthy as possible, nothing more.

Sincerely,

Shari


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Shari here is a link to the Golden Retriever Club of America resource on health testing of the parents of your future puppy. Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA)Health Screenings for the Parents of a Litter I would recommend reading everything on GRCA about getting a puppy. We also have several "sticky" threads at the the top of the Buying a puppy section to read too.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Here is clearance info for Creekside's listed up coming litters 
Litter 1
Sire:
Malcolm - born 7/9/10 - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
His heart was retested to get his Cardiologist certification so that is good. His eye exam is out of date, this needs to be done yearly. They could have it hard copy so you will have to research what it should look like and ask to see it. His hips and elbows do not show on OFFA, they are claiming he has BVA or clearances from England. That is kind of odd since he was born and bred in the US. most breeder in the US and Canada use OFFA. So, you would need to research what BVA clearances should look like and ask to see them. 

Dam:
Shasta - born 6/5/2012 - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
They bred Shasta under the age of 2 in the USA GRCA requires clearances after the age of 2. They say they have BVA, which again means they used clearances form England instead of the clearances and age recommendations from the breed club in there own country. Her heart is a practitioner heart, it should be by a cardiologist.

Sire: 
Reign - born 8/28/09 - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Has a practitioner heart not a cardiologist as her should. His eye exam is really out of date, this needs to be done yearly. They could have it hard copy so you will have to research what it should look like and ask to see it. His hips and elbows where sent to Canada before they discontinued there program. It looks a little strange through Admin - Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Evaluation | Ontario Veterinary College | University of Guelph it does not say he has "Normal" statuses. Here is a Lab that was rated with the next number and for both hips and elbows too Admin - Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Evaluation | Ontario Veterinary College | University of Guelph So, I have no clue what his hip and elbow status really is. You would have to ask.

Dam:
Whisper - born 11/22/09 - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
She just shows a deficient practitioner heart exam like the others it should be a Cardiologist. You would have to ask to see eye exams. The site says she has "normal" elbows but give no clue as to where they were done. They don't mention her hips at all which I would question. 

Overall not a clearance history I would be comfortable with. 

By contrast look at this girl who I think was the mom of Shilo's last litter Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Everything right where you can see it and you can see more clearances in generations on back. 

This is a part of the puzzle when shopping. Researching the health clearances.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

sharipayne said:


> Forgive me, I am quite new to this dog breeder thing, so I apologize for my ignorance!
> 
> You say you are prejudiced against dog breeders who do nothing but breed their dogs - do you recommend I get our new puppy from a breeder involved in showing?
> 
> ...


There are no stupid questions- 
asking is the only way you can get understanding on the opinions of others, which may sway your thoughts or no- but challenging thought processes is a good thing.

First question- no- I know conformation isn't for everyone. I do think everyone can do a CCA event but as far as the rest of the conformation column on the VC scale, that's a personal choice. You have to want to compete in that arena and have a pretty tough skin!
However, there is no reason not to 'prove' your dogs' ability in a performance arena such as obedience or field. While a CD or WC doesn't say your dog is physically correct, it does say that they are trainable and they can perform in some area to the level of titling. My own standards for breeding and I think the standards of every breeder I respect include titling. If you are never in a competition situation, you don't know if your bitch is spooky, or is able to focus, and you don't see other Goldens to hone your eye with as far as 'looking right' goes. 
Shifting into second question- When a person just has pets and breeds those pets to each other, it demonstrates that they don't understand the value of proving the dog is able and willing, and when they breed their 'house' stud dogs to their own bitches it shows that they are breeding for convenience and saving what to me is a minimal amount, a stud fee, for use of the genes that can improve the girls they own. No one- someone correct me if I am wrong- no one owns a stud dog who is the best dog for all of their girls, even if they own two or three, the odds that those boys will be the most complementary to all their girls are astronomically slim. It's easy enough if you have a nice bitch who has her clearances (and by that I mean GRCA COE clearances) to use any dog in this country who will improve a girl. There are no perfect dogs, no perfect bitches- all of them have some area that needs boosting in some way. And even the very close to perfect ones need careful breeding choices so not to lose the wonderful attributes they posess. So, with very few exceptions, I would say that folks who breed their own bunch of bitches to their own stud dogs are doing the breed a disservice. They may see the Goldens as livestock, and they may see keeping a stud dog as a good investment as they can use him on their girls, but you just end up with a steady decline in the quality of your puppies using that method of breeding.

On BVA- there's really no way to quickly verify these clearances, and I personally never buy it that someone will send a dog to Europe to attain clearances, if the dogs are born in the US they almost certainly (unless show dogs) have never left the US. It's unbelieveable to imagine BVA clearances are held by a dog in that situation.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

BVA clearances can be done at I think, 12 months...if you go by the GRCA COE, then you need to do OFA clearances...


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Prism Goldens said:


> On BVA- there's really no way to quickly verify these clearances, and I personally never buy it that someone will send a dog to Europe to attain clearances, if the dogs are born in the US they almost certainly (unless show dogs) have never left the US. It's unbelieveable to imagine BVA clearances are held by a dog in that situation.


I agree with everything you said, so don't think that I'm defending the practice... but I'm curious. Would the dog have to be sent overseas or just the x rays?? 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

ON BVA- unless they've changed it from it's 90's version, you could submit x-rays to the panel but you had to be trained to take those films much like PennHip requires special training. I made a leap in guessing that it is rare for a US vet to be BVA cert'd so in order to do BVA the dog would have to make a trip. 
I haven't really studied on BVA since it began though so I could be wrong. They may have changed their process, and now take films from anywhere, no matter the training. However it is done, it seems a stretch to me that a US dog with US owners would not use a US method and instead go to the BVA scheme of hip evals.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Prism Goldens said:


> ON BVA- unless they've changed it from it's 90's version, you could submit x-rays to the panel but you had to be trained to take those films much like PennHip requires special training. I made a leap in guessing that it is rare for a US vet to be BVA cert'd so in order to do BVA the dog would have to make a trip.
> I haven't really studied on BVA since it began though so I could be wrong. They may have changed their process, and now take films from anywhere, no matter the training. However it is done, it seems a stretch to me that a US dog with US owners would not use a US method and instead go to the BVA scheme of hip evals.


I hadn't thought of that... makes sense. The only reason I could think of that a breeder would choose to do this would be to get around the "2 year old" requirement for a final clearance through OFA... so they can claim clearances and breed underage dogs. Unless you're right and the dogs don't even have the clearance... then it's just an easy way to fake it since it is not easily verifiable outside Europe. Either way - not a breeder I would personally be looking to support. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

As I understand it, the BVA will also certify a dog with Grade 1 elbows a because the UK breeding scheme allows for Grade 1 dogs to be used. In the US grade 1 dogs do not pass and are not certified.

I am not completely opposed to US breeders of English style Goldens to have BVA as long as it was done after 2 and is recorded on OFFA. I imagine it is much easier for them to get stud service and to discuss orthopedic health with foreign breeders who are used to BVA. 

Personally, though I would like to see both OFFA and BVA if this were the case. I think it is important for dog to get clearances in the country it is in.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

just remember a purebred dog is a GMO


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## sharipayne (Jan 24, 2014)

If purebred dogs are GMO I guess that explains why they have so many health problems. To my knowledge, GMOs are only created in laboratories.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Prism Goldens said:


> Shifting into second question- When a person just has pets and breeds those pets to each other, it demonstrates that they don't understand the value of proving the dog is able and willing, and when they breed their 'house' stud dogs to their own bitches it shows that they are breeding for convenience and saving what to me is a minimal amount, a stud fee, for use of the genes that can improve the girls they own.
> ........
> 
> So, with very few exceptions, I would say that folks who breed their own bunch of bitches to their own stud dogs are doing the breed a disservice. They may see the Goldens as livestock, and they may see keeping a stud dog as a good investment as they can use him on their girls, but you just end up with a steady decline in the quality of your puppies using that method of breeding.


Very well said and worth emphasizing. IMO, breeding a bunch of your own dogs in the backyard is more about making money than good dogs, or good pets. Often those dogs don't even live as pets. How does one make a great pet from dogs living as breeding livestock?


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## sharipayne (Jan 24, 2014)

We have decided not to go with the aforementioned breeder. As much as I approve of the way they treat they claim they treat their dogs, we feel it best to look elsewhere.

I will continue to ask though, how can you say that this breeder or any others are breeding their dogs like livestock? Not one person has given a firsthand account of an experience with this breeder, so what proof do you have to go on? The more I see breeders falsely slandering other breeders simply because they might not follow every meticulous little code of the GRCA, the more I'm convinced it is *all* about competition and making money. Why would you care otherwise? 

I see several threads devoted to slandering several different breeders and I sorely regret that I unwittingly started one. Who are you people to stand in judgement of others and if making money is not the goal with breeding dogs - why do you do it? Do you have any idea of the personal circumstances of the lady in Australia? Or the other breeder in Canada? 

False accusation is one of the lowest yet most common sins humanity succumbs to. If you breeders are as reputable as you boast, then at least find out the truth before you spew gossip.

By posting this I realize I am opening myself up to rude and unkind posts, but this really needs to be addressed. Slander is not only an earthly crime. God frowns upon it as well.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

sharipayne said:


> The more I see breeders falsely slandering other breeders simply because they might not follow every meticulous little code of the GRCA, the more I'm convinced it is *all* about competition and making money. Why would you care otherwise?
> 
> I see several threads devoted to slandering several different breeders and I sorely regret that I unwittingly started one. Who are you people to stand in judgement of others and if making money is not the goal with breeding dogs - why do you do it?


First off, I am not a breeder. I may be in the future because the natural progression of a hobby breeder is to enjoy a hobby in one or more discipline in the sport of dogs and then in order to continue and advance breed a litter designed to take their current dog and improve it in the next generation. Also, I know that I would not have a shortage of homes waiting for well bred puppies since my breeder just had to help quite a few on her waitlist with referrals when fewer puppies than homes were born. Also, I would never expect that I would consider ANY breeder 1500 miles away as competition. I would want my future puppies to stay local.

Your questions that I have underlined and colored. "Why would you care? and Why do you do it?" 
I can only answer for myself and my posts on this thread. Why do I post links to our breed club resources, why do I list clearance information including things that are missing, under age breeding and questions to ask? 
Because, I truly believe that most people looking for a puppy really do want the best shot at a healthy companion who has the best chance as a happy, healthy, active companion for 10+ years. I also believe that most of these folks who look for puppies and post on the forum are looking for help when they realize how daunting the process is and how much knowledge is needed to research health histories. I also hold a deep seated conviction that everyone who buys a puppy deserves to make their "best" decision and that means being armed with knowledge of what they are and are not getting.  At that point it is up to them to take what they have learned and make their decision. I have seen repeatedly folks who's puppy develops a health problem that only then realize they have been; lied to, misled, or did not know enough to realize these risks could have been minimized or eliminated by health testing the parents.

I did not make any comments on their breeding practices and those that where where made in a general sense and in the form of an opinion. It happens to be an opinion I share. In my opinion, if a breeder does not involve themselves in the larger world of dog sport and they breed exclusively or almost exclusively to stud dogs on site, that is not a recipe for breeding an improvement in your line. At best this is a setup for convenience and at worst is a setup for "dog farming".

And yes, I really would love for all breeders to adhere to the Code of *Ethics* set forth by their breed club in their country. I am not sure why any person would not want that.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Live with a golden that doesn't have the opportunity to reach its full potential due to sloppy breeding practices at best, criminal practices at worst & you begin to hold such breeders to a higher standard--ensuring they're not just talking the talk but walking the walk. Having been involved from the rescue side of the house in 3 states in the US and now here in Korea, I have no tolerance for skimping on bare minimum clearances & practices. As a dog mom of a gal with bi-lateral hip dysplasia, hypothyroidism, temperament issues & who will always bare the emotional scars from the life she led pre-rescue--I simply must fight for the breeders to do better--these dogs deserve at least that.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Sharipayne, I am not a breeder either. Let me clarify also that I talk with experience having observed some breeding operations, but not those you reference specifically. You mention some points that *may* be red flags IMO, and warrant further investigation. Generalizations are generally true, but the devil is in the details and it really is case by case regarding how good of a job the breeder is doing. IMO, a person with 15 dogs in the backyard cranking out puppies, where the dog never get to go out of their pen, that is treating them like livestock. They are just greeders. I have absolutely no respect for them and dislike them strongly because I feel that treatment, of a dog that only wants to love and play, is cruel. That is my o.pinion. This is an internet forum, and we share opinions. In one example, a breeder may have a bunch of dogs and some life in kennels. But the details of that situation might tell me it is acceptable (as our first breeder was - lots of details). A recent "rescue" of a "retired" stud from a nearby "breeder" had about twice as many dogs in "kennels" out back, but the situation was totally different. I was not with the second situation, would never get a puppy from there and would encourage others not to either. This is on top of the issue of minimal clearances, and then also "proving" the dog through some sort of competition.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

sharipayne said:


> We have decided not to go with the aforementioned breeder. As much as I approve of the way they treat they claim they treat their dogs, we feel it best to look elsewhere.
> 
> I will continue to ask though, how can you say that this breeder or any others are breeding their dogs like livestock? Not one person has given a firsthand account of an experience with this breeder, so what proof do you have to go on? The more I see breeders falsely slandering other breeders simply because they might not follow every meticulous little code of the GRCA, the more I'm convinced it is *all* about competition and making money. Why would you care otherwise?
> 
> ...


Personally, and totally my own opinion and the rules I hold myself to- I think breeders should always improve their own bitches with whatever dogs can do that. The likelihood of that dog being in their own back yard is slim, to my mind. And if he is right for one girl, he surely can't be so grand that he's right for all 5 of one's own girls. So a reasonable place to go with that is that he's there for convenience/saving a stud fee. The odds of him being so amazing that he manages to actually improve all the girls and the breeding program goes up instead of down in quality is slim, slim. That's not a slander of the breeder you were asking about- I don't know her, but I can make educated guesses about her method based on her actions. 
Competition is important if your goal is to produce the very best puppies you can. That doesn't mean I haven't ever bred to non-CH's- I have. Several times. If, as a breeder, a person can take fabulous conformation and improve another area by using a really birdy dog, say, or a super obedience dog- or even a super dog who has zero titles but posesses a pedigree that holds lots of correct and talented dogs, then the result of that breeding will give the breeder what they wanted with any luck. That's the thing- good breeders look at the whole picture and do the best thing for their goal for a litter. If the goal for the litter is just to make puppies and sell them, those are low level goals and almost anyone can do that using almost any method. But method matters when you have higher goals for a litter. 
It's not gossip or slander to observe a method that appears to be motivated by convenience and state it. And it's not like every breeder of every breed doesn't know that it is looked down on to take dogs of no talent or conformation and crank out puppies. It costs our breed to do that, in terms of overall quality. You have no reason to feel badly about starting this thread- the opinions stated on the breeder you were looking at were carefully stated and meant to help to educate you on what is lacking. Mostly because the people here care about you knowing what you are buying. And that is why (your question) any of us point these things out- to give information on a litter or breeder you asked about. Not everyone knows the ins and outs of the various databases. It is the responsibility of the breeder if she doesn't measure up to the very minimal standards of the Code of Ethics.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

Prism Goldens said:


> ON BVA- unless they've changed it from it's 90's version, you could submit x-rays to the panel but you had to be trained to take those films much like PennHip requires special training. I made a leap in guessing that it is rare for a US vet to be BVA cert'd so in order to do BVA the dog would have to make a trip.
> I haven't really studied on BVA since it began though so I could be wrong. They may have changed their process, and now take films from anywhere, no matter the training. However it is done, it seems a stretch to me that a US dog with US owners would not use a US method and instead go to the BVA scheme of hip evals.


BVA requires the same view as OFA for hips. There isn't a different training method as far as I am aware, and I've done BVA hips since the late 90's (I do BVA in addition to OFA). BVA does offer a breeder more information on hip conformation, however, the HUGE drawback, there isn't a database. Because of this I submit my BVA score sheets to OFA for public recording (example Orthopedic Foundation for Animals).

Rob


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## sharipayne (Jan 24, 2014)

Thank you all for your replies. I stayed away from the forum for a few days to try to get a perspective on things, and now I feel like I can see both sides more clearly now. 

Years ago I had a bad experience with a person who said unkind things about me on the internet and some of the posts I have seen about breeders had the same tone that that person's gossip did. So it got my dander up, so to speak. I still agree with my views, but now I see that the majority of you all are truly just trying to help me on my search for the perfect dog. 

I apologize for posting out of haste earlier. I think deep down I was trying to avenge what was done to me all those years ago. And I see that I am guilty of the very thing that I accused you all of being: Jumping to conclusions and false accusations.

Again, thank you for helping me to understand. I will certainly do better about thinking before I post anything else about things I really don't know anything about. Please understand that I never meant to offend anyone. 

It was as though for a time, I envisioned all of you as cyberbullies, not people. And that was wrong. Please forgive me.


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## Goldenhopeful (Dec 21, 2013)

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience. And I'm also glad you understand that these folks are just trying to help you find the healthiest puppy from a great breeder who really takes the time to improve the breed and who sets the new owners up for success. I am so glad I found this forum because I wouldn't have ended up with Tucker. He is truly an amazing dog, so wonderful, healthy, happy and confident. He's the perfect match for our family and I've had such a wonderful experience raising him- I expected it to be a lot harder and really it's been a breeze! I really credit our breeder for setting the stage for such a healthy happy and socialized puppy.


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## SkiSoccerFamily (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm not a breeder and have only had our golden for 1 year now. I haven't posted on this thread because I don't have the knowledge of most of the posters here - and there is some fantastic knowledge!! I've learned a bunch, primarily from our breeder, and also from this forum. We truly had no idea how important it was to find a great breeder until we began doing our research.

Goldens have been over bred or unethically bred for a long time. We were careful to find a breeder who loves the breed, shows them, and works as best she can to breed healthy dogs with great temperaments. The gorgeous "Golden Retriever look" follows those goals, but that's simply because she works so hard to stay true to the breed and protect the line, if that makes sense. She doesn't have her own sires but rather uses sires from other breeders, all of whom are members of the Golden Retriever Club in our part of the country.

As an anecdote, several months ago, I met a nice couple when we were both at a park with our dogs. Ranger, my puppy, was about 7 months at the time. The wife told me their dog was also a Golden Retriever and they couldn't get over how nice Ranger looked. I felt awful because they said their puppy was a purebred Golden, but I really doubted it. Their dog looked more like a small yellow lab - she was precious but I don't think she was all Golden. I didn't say anything to them but rather told them how cute she was, because she really was cute  Again, it's not about the superior, "pure" label, but rather the healthier dog that should result from better breeding.

I hope that makes sense and I don't know all of the proper terms, but hopefully this explanation helps you!


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## mmm713 (Oct 11, 2016)

KeaColorado said:


> Prism Goldens is a member of this forum and I know she feeds raw, but I'm not sure about the rest. Maybe she will see this thread and chime in. I think she's in your corner of the U.S. I know a few breeders out here in Colorado who fit your description. How far are you willing to travel?


KeaColorado, you mentioned that you know of a few breeders who feed raw or non-gmo in Colorado? We are specifically looking for raw-fed breeders in Colorado (or a reasonable driving distance from Colorado). Any suggestions?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

to get quickest responses you should start your own thread under choosing a breeder/puppy.... and call it something like 'Colorado raw feeder/breeders' or something like that.


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