# 'Give' command still not working



## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Just looking for some advice/suggestions.

We have taught Sammy the 'give' command since he was a puppy. He got the hang of it very quickly and was dropping his toys on command in exchange for a treat. At 10 months old he still thinks everything is edible so it's a daily occurance trying to get things off him. 

He will gladly drop one of his toys or spit out a stone for a treat when I say 'give', but we have a problem when he has got hold of something potentially dangerous that could cause a blockage. I stay very calm and walk to the treats cupboard when I can see that he has something and say 'give'. The problem is if he has got something that he considers high value for example...when he was a puppy he ate a facial wipe, there is no way at all of getting him to drop it. He's not that bothered about the treat as he thinks that whatever he has got hold of is food, if I was holding him a piece of steak or chicken he would think that he has to quickly swallow what he has first. I never give him the treat if he has done this.

Any ideas how I can make this command work better? If I try and grab it off him and open his mouth he would think that he definitely has to swallow it quicker to stop me, I would rather not do this and he holds his teeth so tightly together it's impossible. He can't have many toys because he tries to ingest them so he mainly has safer stuff like kongs, nylabones and balls. We are so careful because we know what he's like, but of course there will be the odd occassion on walks or something when he has something that could cause a blockage, and I'd love to be certain that I can get whatever it is off him. 

Any suggestions to try would be greatly appreciated


----------



## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

One of the first portions of the force fetch training for field dogs is "hold". It is different from "give" in that it simply means the dog is supposed to hold the item in his mouth until you ask for it. "Hold" also requires the dog to be able to hold the item and also do any other command such as sit or here. Most dogs struggle with doing the "sit" while maintaining the "hold". They drop the dumbell or bumper that we are working with. You could try to ignore the item in Sammy's mouth and command him to "sit". He might just drop it in order to comply with the command. Walk up to him, give lots of praise for obeying you, and pick up the item without any him noticing if possible.

If he does not drop it, I would try teaching "hold". The "give" is much easier once they have mastered "hold". If you want more information on hold let me know.


----------



## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

My puppy tries to grab everything too. She is spotty with her drop it but once I catch her, she will at least let me get it out of her mouth. She will even let me reach and explore around without biting me. For those times she will not let go of something I blow on her face. She will usually drop it.

My problem is catching her when she thinks she's playing a game which happens mostly outside. But, if she's got a rock or something we think is dangerous, the quickest way is to get the leash and pretend to go on a walk. She always comes running for the leash when we bring it out. She will often drop whatever she's got at that point to go for the walk. Of course, then we have to take her on a little walk so that, that particular trick will continue work.

Then, we continue to work on "drop it" or "leave it" in actual training sessions. But those two things help me get through the defiant moments.


----------



## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Leslie B said:


> One of the first portions of the force fetch training for field dogs is "hold". It is different from "give" in that it simply means the dog is supposed to hold the item in his mouth until you ask for it. "Hold" also requires the dog to be able to hold the item and also do any other command such as sit or here. Most dogs struggle with doing the "sit" while maintaining the "hold". They drop the dumbell or bumper that we are working with. You could try to ignore the item in Sammy's mouth and command him to "sit". He might just drop it in order to comply with the command. Walk up to him, give lots of praise for obeying you, and pick up the item without any him noticing if possible.
> 
> If he does not drop it, I would try teaching "hold". The "give" is much easier once they have mastered "hold". If you want more information on hold let me know.


Thank you for your reply. That's really interesting info about the 'hold' command and is definitely something that I will look into doing with him. He loves obeying to commands so getting him to do a sit/down/roll or something could do the trick. I will let you know how it goes, thanks!




Wenderwoman said:


> My puppy tries to grab everything too. She is spotty with her drop it but once I catch her, she will at least let me get it out of her mouth. She will even let me reach and explore around without biting me. For those times she will not let go of something I blow on her face. She will usually drop it.
> 
> My problem is catching her when she thinks she's playing a game which happens mostly outside. But, if she's got a rock or something we think is dangerous, the quickest way is to get the leash and pretend to go on a walk. She always comes running for the leash when we bring it out. She will often drop whatever she's got at that point to go for the walk. Of course, then we have to take her on a little walk so that, that particular trick will continue work.
> 
> Then, we continue to work on "drop it" or "leave it" in actual training sessions. But those two things help me get through the defiant moments.


Sounds like your pup is very similar to Sammy. He also thinks it's a game so we try to ignore it now, stay calm and try and distract him with a treat to get him to give. I like the idea of grabbing the leash as a distraction though and that's also something that I will try. I hadn't even thought of doing that, he'll probably swallow what he's got first and then come running, but it's definitely worth giving it a go, thanks


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It sounds like you set up a bribing pattern with him rather than a reward pattern. While you can teach the initial stages of "give" by showing the dog a treat, if you keep going with that pattern, you end up teaching the dog to evaluate what's in his mouth vs. what's in your hand. That is a losing strategy, because it relies on your having to outbid the item in the dog's mouth. Bidding doesn't work when you don't have a treat or when the item in the mouth is really great.

What I would do is rework on teaching him "give" with low-value items and then build back up without the bribing pattern.

Have him give something easy without showing him a treat, and then produce a treat or an alternative reward when he chooses to give without seeing a treat first. We do this with stuffed toys all the time with our dogs, just to keep the habit fresh. Only use treat rewards some of the time. You want your dog to anticipate a party without knowing what kind of party it'll be (praise? game? cookie? praise and cookie? praise and game? praise and three cookies in a row? who knows? my human is fun). That way, you won't need to have a treat on you when a real situation arises that requires the dog to give you something. 

For example, simply make fun sounds and shake the item he gives you and make a game of it for 3-5 seconds before giving it back. The dog learns that when he gives, you make it more fun and give it back quickly. That's a great pattern to set up because it doesn't teach the dog to weigh the item in the mouth vs. the treat in your hand. You can also practice with things like behavioral rewards, like making a dog drop before you let him through a door he wants to go through. Comet loves to prance around with stuffed toys, but he has to drop them before he's allowed to go out the front or the back door. It helps make his "drop" faster and more reliable.

Make sure you only reward a true "give." The dog has to release the item into your hand (or the floor if you're teaching "drop"). You cannot pull on it as part of the process or reach at the dog's face. The more passive you are in the "give," the better, since you want to reward the dog's choice to release. If you reach for the toy or pull on it, you can activate the dog's desire to pull back and defend the item.

I was so proud of Jax a couple of months after we first got him because he found a dead starling in the yard and picked it up. I didn't even have to say anything, because he was so used to the game at that point that he pranced on over and handed it to me. That was such a deeply ingrained pattern at that point that he thought nothing of it, even though it was the highest value item he'd ever had in his mouth. His whole experience up to then was that I was constantly holding my hand out, accepting a toy, and either shaking it and giving it right back, or giving him a treat and then the toy back. He had no expectation that I'd take it away. And since I only took that one thing away that time, but the other 99/100 times had been different, taking the starling away didn't weaken his "give" command at all.


----------



## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Tippykayak - Thank you so much for all that great advice! I think you're totally right, I need to go back to the basics of 'give', and we have most definitely set it up as more of a bribing game. I try to keep the treat hidden from him but as a last resort end up showing it to him to see if it will encourage him to drop...so this is definitely something I'm going to work on.

It's also a great suggestion about getting him to drop a toy for simple stuff like going through the door, so that will also be something I'm going to start doing.

You must have been so proud of Jax for dropping the starling for you. Sammy does it occasionally if it's like a stone or something he knows he doesn't even want, but I think it will be a long time and lots of work before he gets to that level. Thanks again and I am going to start putting your advice into practice immediately


----------



## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Personally, I don't care much about bribery as long as Tayla gives me a potentially dangerous object. In her case it is usually a rock. Yes, I bribe and she gives it. Personally I would try to have something on hand that is better than your normal treat for those dangerous objects.


----------



## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Tayla's Mom said:


> Personally, I don't care much about bribery as long as Tayla gives me a potentially dangerous object. In her case it is usually a rock. Yes, I bribe and she gives it. Personally I would try to have something on hand that is better than your normal treat for those dangerous objects.


Hopefully if we continue to work on it with some of the advice offered things will start to improve. He's got so much better outside over the past couple of months and doesn't try to eat sticks, stones etc... anymore. I think it's finally sunk in that they don't taste that good. The main concern is unexpected stuff that we might come across on walks or something he might manage to get hold of at home. It doesn't seem to make any difference to him what kind of treat I have, even if the normal ones don't work I grab some chicken breast or something that he loves and he's still not willing to drop.

People have offered some great suggestions that I'm going to try, so hopefully he'll be dropping all of his finds for me in the future, even the ones he really, really wants.


----------



## Pammie (Jan 22, 2011)

HolDaisy, I have the same situation you do and Bryley is 2 1/2. I have used the trade for a treat technique and it works well for acorns, rocks, towels, or wire twisty ties (that was yesterday!) but it does not work for kleenex that he steals from my pocket, paper towels, plastic bits he chews off a toy that seemed safe :doh:, or stuffing from a mostly unstuffed toy! I am sure my panic and excitability stirs him on and contributes to the running away and the higher likelihood of him swallowing the object than trading. Bryley also will swallow the item quicker so he can make room for the high value treat just like your Sammy. Frustrating and scarey.
I really like Tippykayak's suggestion of starting with low value items and working up - and always making the 'give' fun!arty: I am going to give that a try!


----------



## HolDaisy (Jan 10, 2012)

Pammie said:


> HolDaisy, I have the same situation you do and Bryley is 2 1/2. I have used the trade for a treat technique and it works well for acorns, rocks, towels, or wire twisty ties (that was yesterday!) but it does not work for kleenex that he steals from my pocket, paper towels, plastic bits he chews off a toy that seemed safe :doh:, or stuffing from a mostly unstuffed toy! I am sure my panic and excitability stirs him on and contributes to the running away and the higher likelihood of him swallowing the object than trading. Bryley also will swallow the item quicker so he can make room for the high value treat just like your Sammy. Frustrating and scarey.
> I really like Tippykayak's suggestion of starting with low value items and working up - and always making the 'give' fun!arty: I am going to give that a try!


Hi Pammie. It sounds like Sammy is exactly the same as Bryley! Stuff he thinks is now boring he's fine to give up, but he seems to know exactly what is dangerous and refuses to give it. He's such a worry with toys we only let him have nylabones, balls and ones that are totally safe. We never leave him with toys unsupervised either. I've even had to take his bed away for fear that he'll rip it and eat the stuffing, it's such a worry. No matter how calm I try and stay when I know he has something potentially dangerous, he seems to pick up on the urgency in my voice and that encourages him to swallow even quicker - total nightmare! I've never had a dog like him ever and we've had lots lol. Good luck with Bryley and please keep me posted on your progress with him


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

HolDaisy said:


> Tippykayak - Thank you so much for all that great advice! I think you're totally right, I need to go back to the basics of 'give', and we have most definitely set it up as more of a bribing game. I try to keep the treat hidden from him but as a last resort end up showing it to him to see if it will encourage him to drop...so this is definitely something I'm going to work on.
> 
> It's also a great suggestion about getting him to drop a toy for simple stuff like going through the door, so that will also be something I'm going to start doing.
> 
> You must have been so proud of Jax for dropping the starling for you. Sammy does it occasionally if it's like a stone or something he knows he doesn't even want, but I think it will be a long time and lots of work before he gets to that level. Thanks again and I am going to start putting your advice into practice immediately


I was busting with pride! To the point that, several years later, I still work it in as a brag when I give advice about "give," lol!


----------

