# 9 mo. puppy available



## mhampton (Sep 23, 2015)

great... do you know how I get hold of Cynthia Binder?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Shor'Line Golden Retrievers :: Golden Retriever Breeder - Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, Indiana & Michigan contact info (phone #) on her website


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Shor'Line Golden Retrievers :: Golden Retriever Breeder - Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, Indiana & Michigan


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## mhampton (Sep 23, 2015)

Many thanks. may be too far away


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Mhampton, I think worth the trip!

Wow!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

The COI is a little scary


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## mhampton (Sep 23, 2015)

What is COI?
Maybe worth a trip.. need to see some pics!


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

Genetic information for Test10362 Riviera x Mariner


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## mhampton (Sep 23, 2015)

why do you think I should go take a look, anele?


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## mhampton (Sep 23, 2015)

COI - too much inbreeding? What do others think?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Everyone has their own rule of thumb- mine says keep it under 10%.


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## Moonbridge (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi,
I would tend to agree with Prism. It was definitely a factor in my choice of breeders.

My pups parents, the females COI is 2.8% and the male is just over 10%. (10 generation COI)

I also looked at longevity of the lines. Ultimately we all try to do what is best to ensure a healthy dog.

Sometimes it is overwhelming when looking at all the information. Eventually, I had to let my gut guide me a little bit too


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

With COI I'm less concerned with the number than with the dogs behind it. For me, the number by itself is almost meaningless.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Moonbridge said:


> Hi,
> I would tend to agree with Prism. It was definitely a factor in my choice of breeders.
> 
> My pups parents, the females COI is 2.8% and the male is just over 10%. (10 generation COI)
> ...


Yes it can make my head spin. I also like to see the genetic influence under three (3%). In this case the dog with most genetic influence is over 7% and lived shy of 8 years. 
Looks like breeder has several dogs in this line including both parents and the second genetic influence dog which would be 14 now.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

COI is only as good as the dogs behind it...for example, a dog could have a low COI, but have relatives die at early ages from cancer, etc. I have certainly seen that in the BYB Goldens I see in practice. You need to evaluate depth of health when evaluating COI.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Here are some classes and reading material for the ones who want to read about it. Not just COI but HD ED and genetics. 

The Institute of Canine Biology - HOME

If the COI is just a number why even bother with it? Why even calculate it?


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Mariner is amazing! I've met him and Cynthia Binder in person. She is very conscientious of health and pedigrees when breeding her dogs. This pup should be highly trainable and sweet and wonderful if he's even halfway like his dad! Definitely worth a very long drive to own a Shor'line dog, especially when Mariner is the sire!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> COI is only as good as the dogs behind it...for example, a dog could have a low COI, but have relatives die at early ages from cancer, etc. I have certainly seen that in the BYB Goldens I see in practice. You need to evaluate depth of health when evaluating COI.


I agree with those who say the COI is only as important as the dog the linebreeding builds upon, unless it is skyhigh. It is one tool of many many tools. I would rather have a coherent linebreeding on a healthy dog, than a mishmash of dogs unknown to the breeder with a low COI. 

My least healthy golden had a low low COI, and her littermate has cancer at 7 . 

10-generation COI	0.08%
12-generation COI	0.25%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

CH Little Joe Of Tigathoe *** OS	0.03%
Eng. FT. CH. Holway Westhyde Zeus	0.03%
Golden Pine's Tiny Tim OS	0.01%
Am. CH. Rockgold Chug's Ric O'Shay OS	0.01%
Am. CH. Tansy of High Farms Canada *** WC OD	0.01%


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Goldens&Friesians said:


> Mariner is amazing! I've met him and Cynthia Binder in person. She is very conscientious of health and pedigrees when breeding her dogs. This pup should be highly trainable and sweet and wonderful if he's even halfway like his dad! Definitely worth a very long drive to own a Shor'line dog, especially when Mariner is the sire!


I had the same thought. I've shown against some Shor'line goldens a few times and they are very nice dogs outside the ring and have diverse talent type pedigrees whichnis something to respect. COI and longevity in lines are things to discuss with your dogs' breeders. If there is a DOD and COD visible on dogs in pedigrees, it means somebody entered that in, full disclosure. A lot of people do not, especially if younger deaths and cancer.

There is no clear calculation or strategy to run as far as avoiding early death and cancer. Particularly as these things are not just genetic. They are also related to environment and other triggers (stress, obesity, other illness or surgery, etc).

Meant to add... there are a lot of field and obedience pedigrees which are really scary to look at because of popular sires who died early which figure heavily in a lot of these pedigrees. However, same thing applies as described above. You see these things because a owner/breeder made them public. And results vary due to lifestyle, exposure, stress, illness, etc.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

The importance of COI seems to be one of the subjects that really gets people going. It seem that those whose interest is conformation tend to be less concerned about it.

From the AKC's Canine Health Foundation:
_Because inbreeding can increase the chance of recessive bad genes pairing up in the same dog, it's generally a good idea to prefer a puppy from parents that are not closely related to one another. Some online pedigree programs will compute a Coefficient of Inbreeding (COI) for a pedigree; geneticists advise staying under a 10 percent COI for a 10-generation pedigree for best health. However, this is a rough generalization; inbred dogs have lived long healthy lives, just as non-inbred dogs can have hereditary health problems. 

_

As someone who is interested in field, conformation and performance pedigrees, I found the following statement to be a disturbing generalization that could be misleading for an uninformed reader who is here seeking information:

_
" there are a lot of field and obedience pedigrees which are really scary to look at because of popular sires who died early which figure heavily in a lot of these pedigrees."
_


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm too lazy to type this all over again, so here it is from another thread...

"...As I've said before on the COI threads that seem to crop up every now and then, it's not as simple as the hard COI number. That doesn't take into account how much of the COI individual dogs make up.
For example, a dog has a 10 generation COI of 14.48%. But if you look at the breakdown, there are 5 dogs who account as follows:
Dog #1	3.76%
Dog #2	1.99%
Dog #3	1.58%
Dog #4	1.25%
Dog #5	0.85%
Then you have another dog who has a COI of 15%, but 1 dog accounts for almost the entire 15%. (for example, if you breed half siblings the COI is 12.5%, assuming the parents were completely unrelated).
This is a totally different scenario than the dog what has multiple dogs accounting for the higher COI.
It's just not that easy as looking at a number and saying yay or nay..."
__________________


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

TheZ's said:


> It seem that those whose interest is conformation tend to be less concerned about it.
> [/I]


Always fight a disturbing generalization with another disturbing generalization?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

TheZ's said:


> The importance of COI seems to be one of the subjects that really gets people going. It seem that those whose interest is conformation tend to be less concerned about it.
> 
> From the AKC's Canine Health Foundation:
> _Because inbreeding can increase the chance of recessive bad genes pairing up in the same dog, it's generally a good idea to prefer a puppy from parents that are not closely related to one another. Some online pedigree programs will compute a Coefficient of Inbreeding (COI) for a pedigree; geneticists advise staying under a 10 percent COI for a 10-generation pedigree for best health. However, this is a rough generalization; inbred dogs have lived long healthy lives, just as non-inbred dogs can have hereditary health problems.
> ...


Considering that I have seen many conformation dogs with COI over 30% of course they seem to care less about COI. They keep what they think will win in the show ring and if it doesn't make it they will sell.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

TheZ's said:


> As someone who is interested in field, conformation and performance pedigrees, I found the following statement to be a disturbing generalization that could be misleading for an uninformed reader who is here seeking information:
> 
> _
> " there are a lot of field and obedience pedigrees which are really scary to look at because of popular sires who died early which figure heavily in a lot of these pedigrees."
> _


*coughs* That is why I said the rest - which you failed to quote. The complete thing that I said.... 



> COI and longevity in lines are things to discuss with your dogs' breeders. If there is a DOD and COD visible on dogs in pedigrees, it means somebody entered that in, full disclosure. A lot of people do not, especially if younger deaths and cancer.
> 
> There is no clear calculation or strategy to run as far as avoiding early death and cancer. Particularly as these things are not just genetic. They are also related to environment and other triggers (stress, obesity, other illness or surgery, etc).
> 
> Meant to add... there are a lot of field and obedience pedigrees which are really scary to look at because of popular sires who died early which figure heavily in a lot of these pedigrees. However, same thing applies as described above. You see these things because a owner/breeder made them public. And results vary due to lifestyle, exposure, stress, illness, etc.


 And FWIW - I'm primarily an obedience person. That's where I started and that's where my heart still belongs. And I _do_ obedience with my dogs.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> Always fight a disturbing generalization with another disturbing generalization?


I guess that's a fair criticism.

The thought I was trying to convey is that the comments about COI in this thread downplaying the importance of COI (and support therefor) seem to be coming from people whose principal interest is conformation. Someone who is not a regular participant here probably wouldn't be aware of that.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Considering that I have seen many conformation dogs with COI over 30% of course they seem to care less about COI. They keep what they think will win in the show ring and if it doesn't make it they will sell.


Interesting.... I do a lot of pedigree research and I've seen very few dogs with COIs that high. There are some but I would never say "many". 

The generalizations are never a good thing, in my opinion. It just causes bickering in these threads. I'm honestly not sure why people continue to be so inflammatory in these types of posts.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

COI is a helpful and important too, but it's not the be all and end all of researching pedigrees. I think that is the point some are trying to make. To say a pedigree is "good" or " bad" by looking solely at the COI number is really not an effective way to evaluate pedigrees.


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## Pilgrim123 (Jul 26, 2014)

Although COI can be such an interesting subject of debate (you should stand next to breeders of show cattle discussing the same subject!) can somebody please tell me what, if anything, is happening to the puppy?


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Interesting.... I do a lot of pedigree research and I've seen very few dogs with COIs that high. There are some but I would never say "many".
> 
> The generalizations are never a good thing, in my opinion. It just causes bickering in these threads. I'm honestly not sure why people continue to be so inflammatory in these types of posts.


It is not necessarily a generalization. Here is a link to some stats compiled from k9data that shows the conformation dogs do tend to have the highest COI.

Coefficient of Inbreeding

High levels of inbreeding for the purpose of winning in ANY venue are not helping the breed. It is more than just a number.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

That is an interesting link. Data is always a slippery thing. 

Yes, the high COIs belong to conformation dogs. But, they are all siblings from one litter. So yes, I still consider that comment a generalization because it is based on a perception that at this point is being supported by one breeders breeding decision in 1992. I am sure there are more in fact I can think of a few who breed high COIs than I am confortable with but again that same think could likely be said across all disciplines. 

Interestingly enough, your posted source shows 3 of the dogs with low COIs are from conformation lines though they have not earn the CH title themselves, their pedigrees are those lines and K9data pictures appear to show a couple of them in the breed ring.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

There is an assumption that COI correlates with longevity, but there really is no data to support it, at least as far as cancer is concerned. High COI is about risk of "bad" genes being homozygous in the dog. But there is no scientific data on homozygous genes causing cancer in Goldens. Indeed, one strong line of scientific thought is that there is no "cancer gene" in Goldens, but that the overall combination of genes that make a Golden a Golden causes the breed as a whole to have an immune system that is less able to fight the cellular mutations that crop up in every living being.

If that's true, then the COI doesn't matter one bit when it comes to cancer. Being a Golden is what matters. The same combination of genes that makes a dog a Golden predisposes it to cancer, and it doesn't matter which Goldens are bred together. Perhaps that's why you can see one dog dying of cancer at 8 years old, and then his pup lives to 15. Or vice versa.

COI might have something to do with dysplasia, heart and eye problems, and certain other genetically narrow diseases and conditions, but have nothing whatsoever to do with cancer and overall longevity because cancer has more to do with the gestalt of genes that make a Golden a Golden and not a particular combination of genes within Goldens.

But looking at COI and declaring "Low number good! High number bad!" is just easier than trying to understand the depth and complexity of genetic influences in the breed or in any particular breeding. It's a shorthand we can all use without having to actually understand anything.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The table shows that COI's rise in proportion to the difficulty required to compete in a given venue. The more specialized a particular venue is (Conformation or Field Trial for example), the higher the mean COI goes for dogs that are competitive in that venue. 

Conformation is an extremely nit picky venue. A very slight deviation one way or another is the difference between winning or being turned out after the first look. The higher COI's help to keep those slim margins needed to win consistently year after year.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> Conformation is an extremely nit picky venue. A very slight deviation one way or another is the difference between winning or being turned out after the first look. The higher COI's help to keep those slim margins needed to win consistently year after year.


But it's not true of every dog in conformation though... that's where you have people making broad generalizations. Very high COI's are not acceptable to people interested in conformation. In fact, when somebody on this thread mentioned COI's over 30 - I immediately thought about a breeder who I wouldn't want a puppy from because their dogs are so tightly inbred. One dog in particular - you look at her COI, and her grandmother accounts for 15% contributing to that high COI. 

And you do not have to have high COI's just to win in the ring. A good example you can use would be Jill's Mystic (hope Jill doesn't mind me using her dogs as an example). This dog is very nice and does well in the ring... and his 10 generation COI is 8%. 

The big name female that Mystic had been bred to... who has been winning big shows.... her COI numbers are similar to Mystic's. 

A friend's golden who just got his CH (and for that matter also got his clearances shortly after and was shortly after bred and there's a litter in the planning which if people want a big boned puppy with a lot of coat, you probably might be looking at that litter) - his ten generation COI is 8%. 

There's a local golden who I really love who I believe is #2 in the country... as far as his ten generation COI - it's 7%. 

Could go on, but it is not a given that high COI's are the usual thing for conformation dogs - particularly for the sake of winning.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Kate, the table is using the mean COI, the average for the breed in that venue. It's not picking out the exception or individual dogs, it is indicating the average.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> Considering that I have seen many conformation dogs with COI over 30% of course they seem to care less about COI. They keep what they think will win in the show ring and if it doesn't make it they will sell.


I have never sold an adult dog or placed one for not making it personally, but I dont see how that is different from washing out a field trail prospect, an SAR prospect, a Guiding Eyes prospect, or an agility prospect and placing in a nice loving pet home. 

It is better for a dog to be someone's heart dog, than dog # 5 who stays home while the others compete in whatever is the passion. 

I dont think there is any generalization worth making about show dog v field trail pedigrees etc regarding COI.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

TrailDogs said:


> It is not necessarily a generalization. Here is a link to some stats compiled from k9data that shows the conformation dogs do tend to have the highest COI.
> 
> Coefficient of Inbreeding
> 
> High levels of inbreeding for the purpose of winning in ANY venue are not helping the breed. It is more than just a number.


It still doesn't show the "many" that were claimed above. That is the reason generalizations and exaggerations are not helpful in this type of discussion.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Swampcollie said:


> Kate, the table is using the mean COI, the average for the breed in that venue. It's not picking out the exception or individual dogs, it is indicating the average.


I admittedly did not see the link to that table, Swampy.... 

Now clicking on the link and looking at it... nor sure what to make of it in connection with dogs I know of in various sports. It seems across the board a degree of "norm" as far as numbers would be right around 10%. With that number going up or down or staying static depending on whether you are looking at puppies from these dogs or going back and looking at parents or grandparents. 

I guess I'll put it this way (and just focusing on 10 generation COI):

Field bred dog whose dad was a FC/AFC titled dog and is in the FDHF.... his COI is 13%. Which I believe is higher than his dad whose COI was 10%. This is actually a lower stat than another field dog who I believe was #1 last year - whose COI was 15%.

Conformation bred dog who I believe is #2 in the country. His COI is 7%. Which is lower than his dad whose COI was 13% and mom whose COI was 11%. I already shared other stats....

Obedience bred dog who ranked high up last year (I think #2) has a COI of about 9%. This was one of those dogs who I was referring to whose pedigree unfortunately had a lot of young deaths generation after generation. Note though that other pedigrees might be similar, except less is disclosed to a casual browser on K9data. 

Agility has some big names as far as #1-10 dogs who have low COI's (like 3%)... but I guess I'll use an example of a dog I know (and love her and her puppies), and definitely has a well known line-bred background... her COI is 11%... and it seems like her puppies and other related dogs similarly had COI's around 11%. 

I guess if your point is that dogs bred for specific sports will have COI's near double digits, I guess the above proves that. 

But - it is possible to point out conformation champions, obedience champions, agility champions, and I'm sure field dogs as well who have very low COI's. And even there - I don't really know what that means exactly. It's not like the breeders were/are doing total outcrosses. One breeder I can think of has a conformation champion with a COI around 4 or 5 - but you have to go 4-5 generations back to find "outside" (not from the same breeder) dogs.

And more important to reiterate - low COI's don't mean much as far as longevity or even much when it comes to getting what you want in a dog with very focused breeding behind it. One dog I can think of went from CD to UD in 8 months, so think very much an obedience dog as far as trainability (he still is a goof in the ring sometimes though and probably that's why he isn't an OTCH yet though he's now about 3 years old). Has a COI of about 5%. But his dad whose COI was very similarly 5%... died from lymphoma at age 9 (and furthermore had two siblings who died young from lymphoma). Stuff like that is pretty scary to me - especially as I do look first at what longevity looks like with those vertical pedigrees. Doesn't mean very much for the puppy you bring home - since cancer isn't just genetic. But it does go through your head. And at least in this case, there is no connection between heavy linebreeding or inbreeding and cancer.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

If you scroll through the information at _Coefficient of Inbreeding_ which was linked to above you will come to the chart below which provides statistical data relevant to the current discussion. There is also data on COI's for dogs holding various titles. The methodology for the analysis is provided on the Undeniable Goldens site but basically it's assembled from k9data info on dogs with the titles indicated where COI is available. The sample sizes are actually relatively large.




"The following chart shows that conformation Goldens have the largest COIs on average and agility Goldens the 
lowest."


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> I have never sold an adult dog or placed one for not making it personally, but I dont see how that is different from washing out a field trail prospect, an SAR prospect, a Guiding Eyes prospect, or an agility prospect and placing in a nice loving pet home.
> 
> It is better for a dog to be someone's heart dog, than dog # 5 who stays home while the others compete in whatever is the passion.
> 
> I dont think there is any generalization worth making about show dog v field trail pedigrees etc regarding COI.


Is that why you have a field bred dog that you keep behind, do not list in your signature as a dog you own and only mention when a health issue comes into discussion? 

Yes, frankly all these "competitive" people regardless of venue who would disregard their other dogs for the sake of titles and ribbons on the "special" one(s) are not dog people to me. They are just fame seekers.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> Is that why you have a field bred dog that you keep behind, do not list in your signature as a dog you own and only mention when a health issue comes into discussion?



That is a little personal Ms. M, isnt it? It seems like more of an excuse to release aggression than to make a salient point about COI's. 

I gave Tango for free to a dear dear friend and past wonderful boss bc her bilateral fragmented coronoid process elbows meant she couldnt withstand the constant wresting and hiking with the other dogs after her surgery. That elbow surgery and recovery period was both heartbreaking and bonding. I was crushed by the news she could not wrestle , hike, and play hard bc her mentality was to do so. It was a very difficult thing to do, and I cried many tears over it . He had just lost his 15 year old golden Danny Boy, and his wife to cancer, so it was a magical thing for all of us. It is about as far from your insinuation that she was sold bc she wasnt a show dog as is possible to get. 

In fact most of my dogs are neutered pets, including my beloved heart dogs Tally and Finn. If Tango didnt have such fragile elbows, here she would be like Lush , Tally, and Finn. Instead she gets to go to history class and squash coaching every day, and be the beloved heart dog who is never left home on a prep school campus- not too tragic.  
By the way, her COI is above- the lowest possible. 

I really think it is sad that you go for the personal attack so often. You should have faith in your capacity to argue your opinion on its own merits without the low blows, snark, or trying to insult people you have never met.

Since I wrote a novel about her right here on the forum the conspiracy theory that she is some kind of a secret is silly (or how would you know about it - stalking, lol?), I used to often list her and am happy to list her now, but someone with a wonderful field dog from her same breeder asked me not to bc fears people will assume that field breeder produces ED regularly( which I believe she does not), and I understand that.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Wow. I suppose I am also a heartless breeder. I'm placing a 3YO tomorrow. She's going to a home where she will be the center of their universe, instead of the dog left at home here when we go to the shows or tests or where ever we go to compete in whatever venue. I happen to think that is a REAL dog person. Someone who can balance their own desires (for a titling venue and success there) with what is best for the dog. What good would it do to everyone stay home just because one can't go? Or am I supposed to be unhappy just for the sake of keeping a bitch in my home that I bred and can't continue on with? I suppose to some people that would be the REAL dog person's path.... it's okay. I can look myself in the mirror and be happy with what I see there.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

If you spent time with a dog for three years that dog would be attached to you and depressed if re-homed. If you only used that dog for your purposes for three years then yes it would be a blessing to place in a home where he/she is finally given the attention deserved.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm glad my dogs are resilient enough to not fall into a deep depression and instead take each day as an adventure if they change homes. 
Over the last 30+ years in dogs I have observed that well-balanced dogs seem to be able to make a transition without depression until at least 5-6 years old. I don't have experience with older dogs. When you've had enough years in, you too will see not everything is black and white, depressed or not, ignored or attended to, or any of the other scenarios it is easy for a novice to assume are the only choices.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm going to jump in here with an observation. I rarely come here anymore because the snark factor is so over the top from some people. Claudia, if the shoe fits, wear it. Exactly how does a thread announcing the availability of a nine-month-old pup degenerate into whether or not COI is relevant and meaningful, including personal attacks; meanwhile, not one more word is mentioned about whether the pup has been placed or is still available....five pages later! Moderators, some people on this forum need permanent banning because their posts so often turn the topic into something hateful and personal, and certainly not educational in any manner. Many people who had much to contribute have left this forum because the bullies weren't stopped.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claudia that post was out of line and absolutely unnecessary.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> I'm glad my dogs are resilient enough to not fall into a deep depression and instead take each day as an adventure if they change homes.
> Over the last 30+ years in dogs I have observed that well-balanced dogs seem to be able to make a transition without depression until at least 5-6 years old. I don't have experience with older dogs. When you've had enough years in, you too will see not everything is black and white, depressed or not, ignored or attended to, or any of the other scenarios it is easy for a novice to assume are the only choices.


Since 1972 any dog that came to us was here to stay regardless of health issues, abilities or fame. I guess novices assume that and make life style changes for their dogs.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

the pup (9month old) is still listed on the Shor'Line webpage so may still be available. Also looks like they may have one male puppy from a recent litter (born in October).


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Since 1972 any dog that came to us was here to stay regardless of health issues, abilities or fame. I guess novices assume that and make life style changes for their dogs.


I see... So that justifies making personal attacks on people? I must have missed your logic on that one.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> I got this from a Facebook group and thought I'd pass it along:
> 
> From Cynthia Binder:
> 
> ...


Is this pup still available in case anyone is interested in it?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The puppy is still on her website- so I would assume so.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Is that why you have a field bred dog that you keep behind, do not list in your signature as a dog you own and only mention when a health issue comes into discussion?
> 
> Yes, frankly all these "competitive" people regardless of venue who would disregard their other dogs for the sake of titles and ribbons on the "special" one(s) are not dog people to me. They are just fame seekers.


I am sorry I even started this thread. I was just trying to help people. I know people are constantly looking for puppies, and some folks are specifically looking for an older puppy, so I thought I was doing a kindness by posting the availability of one here. Now I regret doing it.

Also, this wasn't an invitation to bash the breeding over COI, nor was it intended to start a debate about COI. It's about a sweet, lovable, beautiful, fun, gorgeous, joyous soul that is available to make someone happy.

There is too much evil in the world if it can infect even the notification of an available puppy. A puppy! Have you folks no goodness inside you?


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

DanaRuns said:


> I am sorry I even started this thread. I was just trying to help people. I know people are constantly looking for puppies, and some folks are specifically looking for an older puppy, so I thought I was doing a kindness by posting the availability of one here. Now I regret doing it.
> 
> Also, this wasn't an invitation to bash the breeding over COI, nor was it intended to start a debate about COI. It's about a sweet, lovable, beautiful, fun, gorgeous, joyous soul that is available to make someone happy.
> 
> There is too much evil in the world if it can infect even the notification of an available puppy. A puppy! Have you folks no goodness inside you?


Thank you for starting the thread.... please, don't let the evil get you down! you did a good thing for others - hopefully anyone looking for a puppy will read through this thread and (maybe) end up with this 9 month old who sounds like a great dog.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

LJack said:


> That is an interesting link. Data is always a slippery thing.
> 
> Yes, the high COIs belong to conformation dogs. But, they are all siblings from one litter. So yes, I still consider that comment a generalization because it is based on a perception that at this point is being supported by one breeders breeding decision in 1992. I am sure there are more in fact I can think of a few who breed high COIs than I am confortable with but again that same think could likely be said across all disciplines.
> 
> Interestingly enough, your posted source shows 3 of the dogs with low COIs are from conformation lines though they have not earn the CH title themselves, their pedigrees are those lines and K9data pictures appear to show a couple of them in the breed ring.


Too bad it won't let me quote the photo you posted. The Asterling litter with the insanely high COI. I knew one of those dogs personally and she lived I think to 14 or 15......


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Too bad it won't let me quote the photo you posted. The Asterling litter with the insanely high COI. I knew one of those dogs personally and she lived I think to 14 or 15......


Click on the photo, right click to copy the URL, then insert it (paste it) using the picture Icon.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Mods, would you please DELETE (not close) this thread? The defamatory content should not remain forever on the internet.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> Mods, would you please DELETE (not close) this thread? The defamatory content should not remain forever on the internet.


Sending you a PM


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

It is always the same person/persons that start trouble and it is a shame!
Who gives a hoot about the COI here, really? 
This is a beautiful pup that needs a home and I am sure he will find a great home with the right person.
Thanks for posting about it - I know at least one person that would have been interested in this pup but their timing is not right.


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## mhampton (Sep 23, 2015)

Many thanks for Dana for posting as I am hoping to meet Admiral in the near future if all goes well!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't see an issue with bringing up COI. Someone looking into getting a puppy should be educated as much as possible in every aspect.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

mhampton said:


> Many thanks for Dana for posting as I am hoping to meet Admiral in the near future if all goes well!


Good Luck mhampton!! hope all goes well for you and Admiral!


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> I am sorry I even started this thread. I was just trying to help people. I know people are constantly looking for puppies, and some folks are specifically looking for an older puppy, so I thought I was doing a kindness by posting the availability of one here. Now I regret doing it.
> 
> Also, this wasn't an invitation to bash the breeding over COI, nor was it intended to start a debate about COI. It's about a sweet, lovable, beautiful, fun, gorgeous, joyous soul that is available to make someone happy.
> 
> There is too much evil in the world if it can infect even the notification of an available puppy. A puppy! Have you folks no goodness inside you?


I, for one, am grateful for your post. I can't get another pup right now, given Joker's fragile state, but we will look for an older puppy when we do look. This boy would suit us perfectly if we were ready.

I like to think that the discussion of COI is meant to guide those who consider a pup who might have been line bred. The more we know, the better prepared we are to make thoughtful decisions. You're a lawyer, right? And you provide clients with information so they can make informed decisions?

Wishing everyone a wonderful Golden Appreciation Day!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

GoldensGirl said:


> I, for one, am grateful for your post. I can't get another pup right now, given Joker's fragile state, but we will look for an older puppy when we do look.


Same here. I will look for an older dog from a breeder and am grateful there are those breeders that put their dogs' well-being first, ahead of their own hearts, and place older dogs. I think it is a totally selfless act to do so. It's not getting rid of them, it's giving them a chance at a life where they'll be the center of someone's world. How can you ever fault that?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I know Cynthia and have had many opportunities to be with her awesome dogs (including doing some dock diving together) and you will be more than thrilled with this puppy! I hope it all works out okay for you.




mhampton said:


> Many thanks for Dana for posting as I am hoping to meet Admiral in the near future if all goes well!


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

I think everyone's willingness (or not) to place an older puppy or adult has a lot to do with the venues in which they participate, the health clearance status of the dog, and the number of dogs they can legally keep in their home. I try not to fault anyone for placing a dog who doesn't get clearances, just doesn't work out for the venue in which they participate, or if they can only have a very small number of dogs and they find the PERFECT home for the dog in question. Personally, I have not done it. It was part of the agreement that I made with my husband 28 years ago when I purchased my first show prospect. But it has also given me an excuse to participate in obedience, field, agility, and do some tracking training. To each his own. 

I bred a girl this week to someone's dog who lives half way across the country. I am pretty sure that if the stud dog owner had allowed her to continue to lay on the couch, Knicki would have willingly stayed with her when I left. This breed, in general, is extremely resilient. Feed them and love them, and they are yours.


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