# What do you think about this breeder?



## Pixies_big_sister (Apr 13, 2012)

I ran across this breeder's webpage while doing my nightly search of Golden Puppies in the area.

They look like a reputable breeder, what do you guy's think?

Sunset HHF Golden Retrievers - HOME - BANKS, OR

I would LOVE it if I could get my pup from a breeder, but the price always seems daunting to me(I know I know, saves money in the long run, price of health, ect. ect., it just seems like a lot!)

I'll probably end up rescuing from a local shelter(Assuming they'll let me have one with me living in a apt. and not having a fenced yard*yet, we're getting one soon-ish* which several of the local rescues/shelters have strict policy's on).


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## Pixies_big_sister (Apr 13, 2012)

Anyone want to chime in their thoughts?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

It looks like she is dishonest about her dogs' hip and elbow clearances. 


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Also, there is another kennel named Sunshine Goldens in Oregon who is actually a member of the Pacific Rim GR club...


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## Pixies_big_sister (Apr 13, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Also, there is another kennel named Sunshine Goldens in Oregon who is actually a member of the Pacific Rim GR club...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


She's not sunshine goldens, she's sunset goldens
I assume it's because she lives right by the sunset hwy

and what makes you think that about her clearances?


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## Jacques2000 (Jun 18, 2012)

i would try going to check them out if your still interested.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Something seems a little off they say OFA tested with normal or good ratings but they are not listed on the offa.org website.
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

I would want to see the actual paperwork since only CERF and Cardiac are on the offa website. I think only dogs who don't pass would not be listed on the offa.org website but I could be wrong.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Oh sorry I missed that. 

Most of her dogs are under 2 but she claims on her website that they have their hips and elbows done. On K9data, it says her dogs have prelims done. Those are not clearances so she is being misleading by saying they are cleared. For one dog she even went as far as putting "OFA Good" for hips on their k9data page, which is sketchy because why aren't there clearance numbers? Offa.org shows no hip or elbow clearances for that dog or ANY dog she has. She has one dog over the age of 2, but according to K9data she only has prelims and no real hip and elbow clearances.


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## Sosoprano (Apr 27, 2011)

I haven't checked out all their dogs, but I'd definitely steer clear of any pups by Quarter (who just had a litter last April). Her COI is over 25%, which is waaaaay too high, IMHO.


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## Pixies_big_sister (Apr 13, 2012)

They have had several dogs go to service dog organizations and done rather well, which is what caught my eye, because I'm able to see what the dogs are like as service dogs.


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## Pixies_big_sister (Apr 13, 2012)

What is COI?

And Mika, that link you provided are her dogs so.... ???


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Pixies_big_sister said:


> What is COI?
> 
> And Mika, that link you provided are her dogs so.... ???


The point is they only have heart and eyes, no elbow and hip clearances. A reputable breeder does all four.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

If I am paying over $1,000 dollars for a puppy I want their parents to have all recommended health clearance done.

Many service dogs, therapy dogs, and research & rescue dogs are pound puppies. 

Goldens as a breed are meant to please.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Pixies_big_sister said:


> What is COI?
> 
> And Mika, that link you provided are her dogs so.... ???


If you click on each dogs name you will see only CERF &/or Cardiac listed but not hip or elbow. They say their dogs have good OFA ratings yet they are not on the OFA's website. I think only dogs who don't pass would not be listed on the offa.org website but I could be wrong.

COI is coefficient of inbreeding it think it should be under 15% for most dog breeds.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Looks like an awesome breeder! to me I pray you can get a puppy from them. Since rescues are strict, I recomend it. I would really *love *to see you get a puppy from this breeder. Good Luck!


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> It looks like she is dishonest about her dogs' hip and elbow clearances.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


She is? Didn't know that. I thought that since she shows and competes with her goldens, that she was legit.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> She is? Didn't know that. I thought that since she shows and competes with her goldens, that she was legit.


Anyone can compete with their dogs and neglect to do proper clearances. I would love to compete in agility with Molly one day but it doesn't mean she should be bred.. Far from it! It also does not look like she is showing them in conformation so they might not be bred to standard.. And it is really funny (to me) that she includes STAR in her dog's titles.


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## Sosoprano (Apr 27, 2011)

COI is the coefficient of inbreeding. I don't understand the concept very well, but I think the idea is that dogs that are very closely related will share a lot of the same genetic material, and that means that the risk for undesirable traits can be compounded. So, generally, the lower the percentage, the better. Opinions vary one what is a "good" number, but I think less than 15% is considered reasonable.

Still, it's wise to keep in mind that the COI is only one factor to consider when evaluating breeding practices. Clearances, I think, are far more important, and it's also important to consider things like longevity and cause of death as well.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Also, there is another kennel named Sunshine Goldens in Oregon who is actually a member of the Pacific Rim GR club...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


This looks even better. At first when I saw the links to Goldendoodles and Rare White Goldens, I was like "What?!! How could they endorse that?" But then I noticed that they pointed to GCRA's website stating how these dogs are discouraged. Whew!


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

MercyMom said:


> She is? Didn't know that. I thought that since she shows and competes with her goldens, that she was legit.


Anyone with a dog that fits the standard can show and compete with their dogs it does not guarantee they are healthy. 

There are many top show/confirmation dogs that are structural messes. There is a topic Cavaliar I think in England who has offspring that are very unhealthy-Going to go find the TV special I show a few years ago about it.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

MikaTallulah said:


> Anyone with a dog that fits the standard can show and compete with their dogs it does not guarantee they are healthy.
> 
> There are many top show/confirmation dogs that are structural messes. There is a topic Cavaliar I think in England who has offspring that are very unhealthy-Going to go find the TV special I show a few years ago about it.


Found an article referring to it. Link below
Crufts hit by row over health of pedigree dogs - Telegraph

Will keep looking for the actual documentary


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> She is? Didn't know that. I thought that since she shows and competes with her goldens, that she was legit.


As someone said above, if you look up the dogs on offa.org, they don't have hip and elbow clearances. 

Example: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Example: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
While the breeder's website states that these dogs have hip and elbow clearances, if they aren't on the OFA website, then she (the breeder) is not being honest. 

Also, I have an issue with a breeder saying they have "competition dogs" just because they have beginner rally titles. Not that I'm making light of Rally, but a dog with an RN has not proved anything to me. And any golden should be able to get a JH with very little training, and her dogs don't have these either. So don't tell me you are producing dogs for hunt. 

::sigh:: Anyway, it's your puppy and your money. Just my opinions...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I would check the service organizations out very carefully-not all are what they seem. Serious service dog organizations have very strict policies on health clearances and temperament, and breeding on prelims is almost never acceptable.

We have seen on this forum some "service organizations" who are not ones I would recommend at all and some so-called service dog breeders who were less than reputable (cough-GoldRocks-cough).

And I agree-prelims are NOT clearances and should not be presented as such.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

MikaTallulah said:


> Found an article referring to it. Link below
> Crufts hit by row over health of pedigree dogs - Telegraph
> 
> Will keep looking for the actual documentary





MikaTallulah said:


> Anyone with a dog that fits the standard can show and compete with their dogs it does not guarantee they are healthy.
> 
> There are many top show/confirmation dogs that are structural messes. There is a topic Cavaliar I think in England who has offspring that are very unhealthy-Going to go find the TV special I show a few years ago about it.


Found both on YouTube. The first is "Pedigree dogs exposed"
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

And the second is "Pedigree dogs exposed- 3 years on"
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

I think these are the right ones.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

COI percentages mean different things to different people, what is more important than the gross number is what dogs have the largest genetic influence in the pedigree. If a litter is line bred on a long-lived healthy dog who demonstrated special ability in competition and a great temperament than a really high COI is less an issue than if the COI is high but the dogs in the pedigree had health or temperament issues.

The big thing here is that she has bred these dogs before they got their final clearances at 2 years old. This is a violation of the GRCAs code of ethics, that right there makes her not reputable breeder, esepcially when she bred two under-aged dogs to each other. And yes she does state that her dogs have their clearances when the only have OFA preliminary clearances, which the OFA states are not to be considered clearances. 

As someone stated, anyone can donate pups to service dog organizations and anyone can call themselves a service dog organization, so that statement is not very impressive. Neither are the titles that their dogs have. Don't mistake my statement as saying that a CD or a RX title are meaningless, but they are not considered major titles and as such not titles that prove that a dog is worth breeding. A UD, UDX, MX, MXJ, SH or above ARE titles that demonstrate that a dog has the aptitude required of a Golden.

You can and should expect your breeder to do it all in terms of certifying that a dog should be bred for a reasonable amount of money. You may have to look further or wait longer to get you pup, but do not compromise on quality.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Anyone can compete with their dogs and neglect to do proper clearances. I would love to compete in agility with Molly one day but it doesn't mean she should be bred.. Far from it! It also does not look like she is showing them in conformation so they might not be bred to standard.. And it is really funny (to me) that she includes STAR in her dog's titles.


You are absolutely right. I should have investigated further. I think STAR might stand for STAR puppy, or so I thought.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

MikaTallulah said:


> Anyone with a dog that fits the standard can show and compete with their dogs it does not guarantee they are healthy.
> 
> There are many top show/confirmation dogs that are structural messes. There is a topic Cavaliar I think in England who has offspring that are very unhealthy-Going to go find the TV special I show a few years ago about it.


 That's so unfortunate.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> You are absolutely right. I should have investigated further. I think STAR might stand for STAR puppy, or so I thought.


It does, but it's not a real title and an accomplished dog with titles wouldn't need to show off their STAR puppy certification


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

mlopez said:


> As someone said above, if you look up the dogs on offa.org, they don't have hip and elbow clearances.
> 
> Example: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> Example: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> ...


I failed to check this information for myself. It's amazing how misleading these websites can be. Next time someone asks for information on a breeder, I will check OFA and confirm the claims for myself before saying yes. I guess I got too overexcited epsecially since she breeds service dogs. I know there are reputable breeders who do this including my breeder.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> It does, but it's not a real title and an accomplished dog with titles wouldn't need to show off their STAR puppy certification


I have STAR puppy in my dog's pedigree for right now. Of course, I don't plan to breed.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

How come you don't find a puppy, at a pound, or spca, or something like that?


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## Pixies_big_sister (Apr 13, 2012)

goldensrbest said:


> How come you don't find a puppy, at a pound, or spca, or something like that?


I said why in my 1st post



> I'll probably end up rescuing from a local shelter(Assuming they'll let me have one with me living in a apt. and not having a fenced yard*yet, we're getting one soon-ish* which several of the local rescues/shelters have strict policy's on).


I'm not ruling out shelters, they just have so many hoops you have to jump through, it's ridiculous. I look at available shelter dogs everyday, I also watch Craigslist for re-homes


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Pixies_big_sister said:


> I said why in my 1st post
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not ruling out shelters, they just have so many hoops you have to jump through, it's ridiculous. I look at available shelter dogs everyday, I also watch Craigslist for re-homes


 Sorry,must have missed it.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

I know you want a golden but what about a young springer? Springer Spaniel

Or Australian Shepard? http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pet/3181541144.html


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

This group comes up as a search in Portland, Or. area- Not goldens though Royal Ranch Dog Rescue


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

This one is probably too small 20 pounds and a border collie rehoming small border collie


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Pixies_big_sister said:


> I said why in my 1st post
> I'm not ruling out shelters, they just have so many hoops you have to jump through, it's ridiculous. I look at available shelter dogs everyday, I also watch Craigslist for re-homes


I think you may be overestimating the hoops for shelters unless you've already scoped them out. It's fairly easy to adopt a shelter pet. I am concerned if you don't think a shelter would permit you then I think you may have a hard time convincing a reputable breeder to sell you one of their pups.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Personally, I would not make a full judgement by a website alone. 

I did not see who the parents were of the puppies she already sold, she does have a few co-owned dogs that are older.

The dogs that I have seen, are right about two or less than two, and she states she is waiting for their final clearances. I am not sure how long it takes to have them finalized and entered. One of the dogs just turned two about 6 weeks ago. I think one of them stated she just passed.

She does state on her website how her program has evolved the years she has been doing goldens. It sounds like sounds like she is now heading in the right direction.

She is a member of the Pacific Rim Golden Retriever Club and the GRCA or so she claims, I would contact them and see if she is a member in good standing.

A few of her dogs are off spring of Whiskey Creek, maybe get in touch with her, and see if she has an opinion one way or another about this breeder. According to K9DATA, they co-own http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=398855

The dogs on her website might not be all of her dogs. My breeder only shows about handful at a time and some of them are at the bridge.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

cubbysan said:


> Personally, I would not make a full judgement by a website alone.
> 
> I did not see who the parents were of the puppies she already sold, she does have a few co-owned dogs that are older.
> 
> ...


I think Whiskey Creek may even be a member here


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

MikaTallulah said:


> I think Whiskey Creek may even be a member here


She is.. hopefully she will see this thread.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

What about a German Shepherd mix:

labrador-german shepherd


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

SheetsSM said:


> I think you may be overestimating the hoops for shelters unless you've already scoped them out. It's fairly easy to adopt a shelter pet. I am concerned if you don't think a shelter would permit you then I think you may have a hard time convincing a reputable breeder to sell you one of their pups.


A shelter is easier than a rescue to adopt from. You can even have your name on a waiting list for a particular type of dog you are looking for. I know the shelter I support, does this. Goldens never even make it to be publicly listed, because there is a waiting list for them.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

cubbysan said:


> Personally, I would not make a full judgement by a website alone.
> 
> I did not see who the parents were of the puppies she already sold, she does have a few co-owned dogs that are older.
> 
> ...


I would be perfectly willing to make a judgement to pass based on this website. She states on the website that her dogs have their clearances but on K9Data she states they are prelim clearances, the OFA has clear information about what can be considered a clearance and what can't. i.e., a preliminary clearance. If she is a member of the GRCA then I would hope she has read the code of ethics about breeding. Heck, I was possibly maybe thinking about breeding and I have read the COE.


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## SunnyCPE (Nov 10, 2012)

*Fyi*

I was really not going to respond to this because some of it makes me sad and the rest of it just makes me angry. 

First of all, I do not EVER try to mislead people. In fact, I thought I couldn't have made it easier for people to see exactly what they had by 1)listing the last hip test, whether final or prelim, and then giving the exact link with that dogs information to k9data. At that point, it specifically says either the permanent OFA number OR the prelim WITH the PENN-HIP test results. I actually didn't know I could submit PENN HIP results to OFA and have them count. For that, thank you for the good information. ALL OF MY OLDER DOGS THAT ARE NO LONGER USED FOR BREEDING HAVE BOTH OFA PRELIM and a PENN-HIP OF 50% OR BETTER... BUT MOST OF THEM ARE IN THE 90% RANGE. I have since gone back and done a 3rd test on them for the OFA final just to please the unpleaseable and to get it on OFA. Everyone who comes out to meet me or my dogs can view all the paperwork. I also send home 3 generations of testing and pedigree information. This includes heart, hip, eye, elbow, Penn-hip, PRA, and Ichtyosis... It goes home in a tidy binder with vet records and AKC registration. My mentor that I origianally had was very big into Penn-Hip testing. That is why I have both. I even agreed and really thought that while both OFA and Penn-Hip are testing for hip dysplasia, they really are looking for different things and require different x-rays. I believe that doing both gives THE BEST picture of hip health in dogs. I stopped doing them a year ago due to expense and that they didn't show up on OFA website (again thanks for clearing this up since I can send these in.). In 2 days, I will have taken every dog I have either for hip final or prelims. It will be listed, as well as I will be adding a link to OFA for each dog. Again, I am not trying to hide anything. I wasn't before. Am not now. I thought I was being clear.

Next you bash the ability of my dogs. I am speechless to that. I will be the first to admit they don't have high ranking titles. That is a work in progress and more reflect my ability as a trainer than the ability of my dogs. When I started off doing this as a very serious hobby, I was happy that my dogs were earning a STAR AND CGC. I was really after proving they had the correct temperament. The problem is that I have unfortunately met many goldens that do not have the traits that we all value so highly. They were mean, aggressive, and hard to train. I returned them to the breeders and I did not breed those. (I also chose not to breed those dogs with passing hip tests, but that had a PENN-HIP score of 10% or 30%. Again, the information used TOGETHER was not good enough in my eyes to breed them, even though they could pass the OFA test by itself.) I originally set out wanting dogs that were beautiful, but soon realized that a good exterior meant nothing without a sound mind and heart (same could be said of people also 

I'm getting off subject, but at any rate, my progression was breeding dogs that I thought were nice, then it went to dogs that had earned their CGC. Then I went to using dogs that had passed both CGC and had a Rally Novice title. This past summer, my first dog earned a Junior Hunt Title. You guys on this site, will totally knock that title and thats okay. I drove over 600 miles one way to earn that 4th qualified test. I was so High on life! I don't expect anyone reading this to actually care, but it was indescribable. Next year, all the new dogs I start will be required to have an obedience title, rally title, hunt title... Oh, and I just recently started tracking... What fun! The point is, that while my personal ability is still learning, it DOES NOT take away from the fact that my dogs do exhibit the qualities needed for service, performance, and family pets. And I prove this at the level I am capable of. Each year, that level will become higher and higher. Next year, I get to start a dog for Senior Hunt tests and have 2 that should earn their CDX. That, no matter how you want to bash me, makes me happy and proud.

To specifically hit on the STAR thing... every single pup that I keep I take to puppy class. It is important for 2 reasons: 1) I get to see my pups interacting with other dogs in the same setting that the new owners see. It lets me evaluate and confirm that my dogs are exactly what i say they are. 2) I PREACH to all my new owners the importance of puppy class. How can I ask them to spend money and time on it when I won't? It doesn't make sense. I pay for it and value it. So should they value those same things in their pet. I will always see the value in this.

Someone made the comment that my dogs may not be the breed standard. To that I'm also so excited say that also isn't true. They meet height, weight, temperament, instincts, and beauty. The conformation is good. I'm also super excited that early next year we will have a CCA event near me and that my dogs are going!!! Just because a dog does not show in AKC conformation does not mean it is not a correct dog. I should also point out that just because a dog does show in AKC conformation doesn't mean that the same dog can go out and retieve a bird. It works both ways. 

As far as knocking the service dog organizations... well, it makes me sad beyond belief. Is there a possibility of a bad apple out there? Sure, but I'm very confident that the ones I work with are not those. I recieve updates, go to my dogs graduations, and I get to see my dog with its new working partner. This, hands down, is the best part of what I do. I get to see a dog change a person's life. A person that wasn't able to be in public on their own, now can. A marine with PTSD can now function. Imagine the bond you have with your dog and then multiply it infanately because the fact is that many of the people cannot function without their service dog. Shame on you for that. These people deserve extra help and I am and will always be willing to help those people that provide these dogs for people.

My dogs are exactly what I say they are. I cannot guarantee they will be the next OTCH or that they will become a Champion show dog. WHAT I CAN GUARANTEE is that I have bred from healthy parents, with wonderful health history (which I can verify with my binder of info/ofa website) of which I provide 3 generations, and that they will have the characteristics that the breed standard calls for and that most people seek. I have proven through the showing, classes, and training that my dogs are calm, easy to train, and that they can still do very well in stressful and busy situations. 

I won't be responding to this anymore. I appreciate the info about the Penn-hip being eligble for OFA. I dotted my I's but didn't cross my T's. I have since fixed that/in the process of fixing it. In fact, I've even gone back to people with the adults I've retired and paid for an OFA final for them... just so its on record with OFA even though I already posess the test for OFA prelim and PENN HIP. As always, all info will be listed on my website and anyone with questions is welcome to call me or email me personally. I have copies of EVERYTHING, though everything should be listed on OFA by the end of the year.

I will continue to advocate for people with disabilities and for those who go above and beyond to make a difference in their life.

I will continue to enjoy my dogs, our activities together, and the feelings of pride when they do well, and the sadness when we don't do as well as I had hoped


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Oh sorry I missed that.
> 
> Most of her dogs are under 2 but she claims on her website that they have their hips and elbows done. On K9data, it says her dogs have prelims done. Those are not clearances so she is being misleading by saying they are cleared. For one dog she even went as far as putting "OFA Good" for hips on their k9data page, which is sketchy because why aren't there clearance numbers? Offa.org shows no hip or elbow clearances for that dog or ANY dog she has. She has one dog over the age of 2, but according to K9data she only has prelims and no real hip and elbow clearances.


 
Maybe I am the one missing something here but when I looked at her website, it showed the dogs as having OFA prelims stating they had OFA prelims.

Sunset HHF Golden Retrievers - OUR BOYS - BANKS, OR

If you look, it states that Sonic has prelims(because he is not old enough for finals) and I do not see where he is being bred.

This is the litter of puppies that she currently has and the puppies parents do have their hips and elbow clearances, which has been the complaint on this thread, that they did not. An eye clearance is not listed, but that can easily be checked with the breeder: 
Sunset HHF Golden Retrievers - PUPPIES! - BANKS, OR
Whyatt the sire :Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Misty the dam: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

She has a litter that is due in early December and the dam is Int'l CH Sunset's I Am Hope CGC. Here are her clearances: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
her CERF is out of date and her heart isn't listed but those things can be checked with the breeder and this thread has been about her not having hip and elbow clearances. Those are clearly listed.

I do not know this breeder at all and had never heard of her before this thread was started. I just believe that if information is going to be put out on the web about a breeder, it needs to be correct information. 

It clearly states on her website which dogs have prelims and when those dogs will be retested for finals. I do not see this as decieving. Many breeders do prelims and then do finals, myself included. I don't always put that information on my website, but it can be seen on the OFA website.

It appears to me that this breeder is starting out and trying to do things the proper way. She may not state things exactly as people are used to seeing things stated but the dogs that have been recently bred do have hip and elbow clearances.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I think you also have to take into account when this thread started and bump that up against the report date shown on OFA--looking at a couple, clearances didn't report until Nov 12.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sigh. I so appreciate what PennHIP is doing....but honestly I wish they would go away. I wish they would require a dog to be over 2 years old and I wish they had an online verifiable database. Because isn't it a big coincidence that every fringe breeder who has spotty clearances and has to step up and defend breeding dogs without OFA clearances (NOT PRELIMS), magically is a big proponent of PennHIP? Yet by-the-book responsible golden breeders use PennHIP once in a blue moon and only when accompanied by an OFA score? Wow what a revelation.....
Listen....DO THE OFA FINAL HIP EVALUATIONS. Not a prelim. Not an xray your vet eyeballs. Just do it. Then you don't have to defend anything. End of story. For half the price of one of those JH entry fees you can submit a FINAL OFA xray and get a REAL CLEARANCE.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

What I don't understand is the need to breed and have multiple litters and then think about pursuing titles--why put the cart before the horse?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Pixies_big_sister said:


> They have had several dogs go to service dog organizations and done rather well, which is what caught my eye, because I'm able to see what the dogs are like as service dogs.


I would actually check with the service dog organizations listed (if even named) and ask THEM for that reference. "Breeders" have begun to claim that they produce and sell service dogs as a way to gain trust and legitimacy from unsuspecting purchasers. I will say that most if not ALL reputable service dog organizations will not accept puppies from dogs without all clearances.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Pointgold said:


> I would actually check with the service dog organizations listed (if even named) and ask THEM for that reference. "Breeders" have begun to claim that they produce and sell service dogs as a way to gain trust and legitimacy from unsuspecting purchasers. I will say that most if not ALL reputable service dog organizations will not accept puppies from dogs without all clearances.


You are 100% correct. I have fostered puppies for our local service organization for many years, 14 puppies worth. Most reputable service organizations have their own breeding programs and when they do accept a donation puppy, both mom and dad must have all the clearances required for the breed (GR, poodle, lab etc), as well as up to date immunizations. They also want to meet mom and dad, if possible, and they come and check out where the puppy has been whelped and raised. They also do not pay for their dogs, it is strictly a donation.

As to the temperment/behaviour of a service dog, how much of it is training and how much of it is genetics. These puppies are worked with from the time they are very very young, 2 weeks, in some cases. They have extensive socialization and training classes through out puppyhood, often by experienced foster families and around 1 year of age they are handed over to professional trainers. In my opinion, I believe all well bred goldens could achieve this "service dog" level or behaviour with similar training.

There is a golden breeder in Ontario that claims to provide puppies for service dogs. It is impossible to find the "service organization" he does this for. Also, most reputable service dog organizations do not sell their service dogs to their clients that need them.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Sigh. I so appreciate what PennHIP is doing....but honestly I wish they would go away. I wish they would require a dog to be over 2 years old and I wish they had an online verifiable database. Because isn't it a big coincidence that every fringe breeder who has spotty clearances and has to step up and defend breeding dogs without OFA clearances (NOT PRELIMS), magically is a big proponent of PennHIP? Yet by-the-book responsible golden breeders use PennHIP once in a blue moon and only when accompanied by an OFA score? Wow what a revelation.....
> Listen....DO THE OFA FINAL HIP EVALUATIONS. Not a prelim. Not an xray your vet eyeballs. Just do it. Then you don't have to defend anything. End of story. For half the price of one of those JH entry fees you can submit a FINAL OFA xray and get a REAL CLEARANCE.


Penn-Hip is a very valuable tool. I use it quite infrequently as my prelim as it give a total picture of the hip joint by rating the laxity and anatomy of the joint. The theory is that if the laxity is poor that joint could become displastic over time due to the play in the joint. People need to become more educated in Penn-hip.

I work with a vet that does Penn-hip and have had a chance to go to a couple of seminars on penn hip. I highly recommend them if you have a chance to go to one very educational.

That is why I choose to use both tools when considering a dog for my breeding program. Like Sunset goldens I have homed very nice dogs with OFA Good hips but low laxity scores. I have also kept dogs with Fair OFA hips with high laxity scores. 

The issue I have with OFA is on any given day your results may be different depending on the three Dr that read your x-ray and the positioning of your dog it is so subjecting. If the position of your dog is off you could go from a good OFA to a Moderate result *please see video below.
*


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

opps tried to repost same info


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I agree with k9 Design about PennHip... Four problems I have with them being the sole source of a hip clearance. They are 1)no way to verify the data on line 2)age at which you can get the final evaluation 3)no pass or fail, just a DI which IMO is up to breeder interpretation on what is considered acceptable 4) no way to look up statistics for a particular breed. The vet who does it here in Maine says he cannot divulge those results to anyone, including a fellow veterinarian.

I also agree with k9Design, send all of your results in then there is no need for interpretation or misinformation.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Wyatt, the father of the current litter was bred before he got his elbow clearance. There is no PENNHIP equivalent for elbows. His clearances are listed on November 12th and the pups were born on October 22th.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

To SunnyCPE, I guess where some of the rabid interrogation comes from is that some of us were involved in breeding after we were involved with goldens in performance or conformation events...not the other way around.... If you, as a breeder, were involved as a member of a club, you would know the clearance expectations...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, that video... On any given day the results can vary... If the pelvis is straight and the patellas are paralell,it is really not a lot up to supposition... The one girl I have that is fair is one of the soundest dogs Iwill ever own. I took her rads two days after her sister aborted a litter and she was not out of heat for one week. I gave her a drug, just to sedate her and she ended up barfing everything in her system... I was so afraid that I didn't clean her mouth out enough and she would aspirate, so I took,her pictures. She had horrible relaxation and I was ok with a fair. All of the others have had general anesthesia and gotten "goods". I thought about retaking the rad, but she is sound....


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> To SunnyCPE, I guess where some of the rabid interrogation comes from is that some of us were involved in breeding after we were involved with goldens in performance or conformation events...not the other way around.... If you, as a breeder, were involved as a member of a club, you would know the clearance expectations...


thats hte thing that always bugs me is the putting the cart before the horse... the I am going to be a breeder.... they are not involved in the breed, they don't understand structure, they haven't learned what they need to do, they don't understand clearances and COI, they don't have a mentor but darn it they are gonna breed.... because their dogs are nice and puppies are cute. Do they love their dogs ?? I am sure they do but they haven't a clue what they are doing and they learn along the way... and then might compete later or not... drives me nuts... 

I find this funny because breeding is my least favorite thing to do... I do it for the next generation but honestly I find the whole process stressful... from the finding a stud dog, to the breeding which can be risky, to watching my girl get bigger and bigger and hoping that everything will be ok in the whelping to having pups that fade and die or have birth defects (and it happens even when you do it all right) and finding families I trust etc etc... sure puppies are cute but honestly every time I breed I get a week out from whelping and think to myself "what was I thinking?" I am so afraid for my girl and what if something goes wrong and something happens to her and are the puppies gonna be ok ??? and and and I can't imagine doing this wihtout an experienced mentor holding my hand... and even now after whelping a bunch of litters of my own and for someone else it scares me to death... I honestly just don't get it...

Every time you breed a litter you take a risk with your beloved dog... every time... you never know what will happen... and to risk your girl because you think you are going to make a couple bucks is beyond me... absolutely beyond me


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's important to remember that that video is about how you can ruin a good hip score with a bad rad, not that OFA is capricious or unreliable. You also can't turn a bad hip into a good one with positioning.

As far as PennHIP, I'm happy to see it done ON TOP OF regular OFA clearances, but since they don't have an open database, I don't like to see it in lieu of OFA. Get the final OFAs. If you got a bad rad and a fail or a fair, then get a new rad.

Comet got a fair, but the positioning is pretty bad. Given the number of goods and excellents in his siblings and vertical pedigree, there's every change he'd get a good if it were redone. He's not a breeding dog, but I may get them redone at some point anyway.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Last year, I had my first ever c section in one of my girls...so stressful for the humans ...it was with a bitch with one prior litter of eight with no problems... So potentially,not a huge risk.. An emergency c section is no joke and if you do not know what to look for in a distressed bitch, then you should not be considering breeding..


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> To SunnyCPE, If you, as a breeder, were involved as a member of a club, you would know the clearance expectations...


Ummm she is a member of the pacific rim golden retriever club in good standing. one question how do you know for cretin that that she was not showing and or doing performance work with her dogs before breeding?? answer you don't!!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

whiskey creek goldens said:


> Ummm she is a member of the pacific rim golden retriever club in good standing. one question how do you know for cretin that that she was not showing and or doing performance work with her dogs before breeding?? answer you don't!!


What there be something to show for her effort then (i.e. titles)? And if not, again the question should be asked why the desire to breed unproven dogs without clearances? How is that practice helping the breed?


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Selli-Belle said:


> Wyatt, the father of the current litter was bred before he got his elbow clearance. There is no PENNHIP equivalent for elbows. His clearances are listed on November 12th and the pups were born on October 22th.



No-there is not an equivalent for PennHIP for elbows and the COE for the GRCA is a guide. It is not punative and it is not written in stone.

There is so much valuable information on the forum and so many knowledgeable members. It saddens me when things denegrate into this type of thing. Unfortunately, every person who is going to breed or show starts out somewhere. Some do start out breeding first and then learn that there is a better way of doing things because they do join a club or start going to some classes and wind up doing some sort of competition with their dogs.

We are all individuals and so have our own thoughts on things. When I see someone making strides to improve upon the way they were doing things, I would rather encourage that behavior than beat them with a stick. That old you get more flies with honey thing. 

I suppose in a few years, we will all know which way this breeder went but I still see it as a good sign that she is starting to get involved with doing things with her dogs, doing clearances and has joined a GR club. This will only provide her with more opportunities for education on how to do things the right way.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

SheetsSM said:


> What there be something to show for her effort then (i.e. titles)? And if not, again the question should be asked why the desire to breed unproven dogs without clearances? How is that practice helping the breed?



Even the best and most knowledgable breeders do have girls that are bred that do not have titles. My Bailey, who is the foundation to all Harborview dogs(and will soon be 16 years old  ) does not have titles. Yes, she was absolutely shown and shown quite a bit. She is lacking a major for her American championship and has 17 major reserves. I also have other girls whom I have bred that do not have titles. If that makes me a bad breeder, so be it.

I do not know this particular breeder that is being talked about at all. But, what I do see is that she is making an effort to do things the proper way. Was she always doing that? No. But, isn't what a big part of the forum is for education?? I personally applaud her for going back and doing all the OFA clearances on her dogs. 

Not every person in dogs starts out the same way. I am approached quite often by people who have a girl they want to breed and are looking for a stud dog. Some of those people can be educated about clearances and what needs to be done and some cannot. It appears to me, that somewhere along the way, this breeder found that there was a different and better way of doing things. She is going back and doing OFA clearances and is starting to compete with her dogs and recently got her first title(I believe her post said a JH) She has joined a member GR club. She certainly would not be the first person to breed first and learn later. There are some breeders who are often given out as referrals on the forum who started in much the same way.

Sometimes I do think we need to give people the benefit of the doubt when they are making an effort in the right direction. I guess time will tell what happens.

In another thread, we were having a discussion about hobby breeders and if they could fill the need/desire for purebred GR's. My answer was there are not. If this breeder is now doing clearances/has clearances on her dogs, goodness knows, people looking for a puppy could do much worse. Some will come back and say that they could do better......I suppose it is all in how you look at the glass.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

hvgoldens4 said:


> Even the best and most knowledgable breeders do have girls that are bred that do not have titles. My Bailey, who is the foundation to all Harborview dogs(and will soon be 16 years old  ) does not have titles. Yes, she was absolutely shown and shown quite a bit. She is lacking a major for her American championship and has 17 major reserves. I also have other girls whom I have bred that do not have titles. If that makes me a bad breeder, so be it.
> 
> I do not know this particular breeder that is being talked about at all. But, what I do see is that she is making an effort to do things the proper way. Was she always doing that? No. But, isn't what a big part of the forum is for education?? I personally applaud her for going back and doing all the OFA clearances on her dogs.
> 
> ...


But I also think these breeders would have an easier go on this forum to admit their shortcoming vice defending their poor practices. There have been several new breeders in the last few months on this forum who are now doing clearances but have made no attempts to show their dogs and these are dogs coming from generations of zero clearances & titles. However, when you look at their website--they're claiming these dogs are from great pedigrees & reflect the correct temperament and conformation which is misleading to the unsuspecting puppy buyer. 

I would ask again what's the rush to breed? Once you know better, why not slow down or pause the breeding & focus on ensuring your breeding quality dogs? If you're relying solely on spotty clearance history (a chunk of clearances here didn't occur until Nov of this year), how can you assure your puppy buyers you're doing your best to produce a healthy pup that meets the breed standard for golden retrievers.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> I would ask again what's the rush to breed? Once you know better, why not slow down or pause the breeding & focus on ensuring your breeding quality dogs? If you're relying solely on spotty clearance history (a chunk of clearances here didn't occur until Nov of this year), how can you assure your puppy buyers you're doing your best to produce a healthy pup that meets the breed standard for golden retrievers.


I agree, coming there and asking for help in moving in the right direction instead of getting defensive and writing a long diatribe about how you are justifying poor breed practices of the best would go a long way to showing people that you realized your mistakes and trying to change them. That would also require one to STOP breeding prelims without elbow clearances... etc etc and really make a change, not just move in the direction of improving but actually doing it. 

I am willing to forego the titles thing... considering that maybe she is showing and maybe she is working on titles... but the clearances thing is a non starter for me... she is either breeding with full clearances or she is not... and instead of making excuses she needs to simply stop doing that and misleading people... the average puppy person doesn't know the difference between a prelim and a final clearance. She shows them a paper and they think oh clearances great... those things in and of itself doesn't bestow confidence that she is moving in the right direction and I am with Sheets on this one... what's the rush?


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

If you go back and look at my previous post a few pages ago, all the dogs she is breeding now DO have hip and elbow clearances. Most also have their eyes and hearts listed on the OFA site as well.

This is where my contention comes from that maybe we need to take a step back. Someone posted in a first post that she had prelims listed on her website-which she does, but those dogs are not the parents of her puppies and she also lists a date that they will be going in for finals. So, I do not think she is being deceitful.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

SheetsSM said:


> What there be something to show for her effort then (i.e. titles)? And if not, again the question should be asked why the desire to breed unproven dogs without clearances? How is that practice helping the breed?


Not everyone who hunts, tracks, search and rescue, or trains in obedience with their dogs goes out and gets titles on them. My boy chace was an excellent tracker, field, and obedience dog. The only AKC title I ever put on him was at 10 years old and it was an RN and that was just for fun not to prove him worthy of reproducing.

So No! There may be nothing but photos and reputation to show someone what your dog is capable of. Dose it make him/her unworthy of being used in a breeding program No.

Some people/breeders do not like the way AKC/breed club designs their hunt, scent, and obedience tests and prefer UKC hunt tests or not testing at all. They prefer real world experiences. I know i do.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I think people here care so much about the breed that there is a tendency to pounce and pile-on whenever they find someone who doesn't appear to be doing everything perfectly. It's done for the best of motivations, but I wonder if it's sometimes harmful and a little quick to judgment. And perhaps some decent and good people who are learning, evolving or just don't have everything online get unfairly tarred.

I express no opinion on this breeder. I know nothing about her. My only observation is that sometimes this forum can be a bit quick to condemn. And yet, it's hard to condemn the condemnation, because it's done with good hearts and a fierce love of the breed.


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

SheetsSM said:


> But I also think these breeders would have an easier go on this forum to admit their shortcoming vice defending their poor practices.



Really Not so much!! I have been attached twice on this forum for not doing my clearances. The fact is that I always have from my very first litter to my current litters.

My huge NO NO was that I did not send in my eye and hearts to OFA. This does not mean that I did not have them. It means that I did not send them in to OFA. 

Then I came on to defend a friend who I have been mentoring. I was once again put under the microscope. As I had Recently had a litter with a girl that was bred 23 moths and 28 days of age on a OFA prelim. The x-ray was taken 2 day before her second birthday. This was my mistake and I acknowledged it. Did not stop some people from bashing me further NO! :doh:

Then they went back and looked up every dog I own. They found that Chace (one of my first dog) who I got as a two year old had been bred without clearances. This is true.... but I DID NOT DO THE BREEDING his original owner did.



SheetsSM said:


> There have been several new breeders in the last few months on this forum who are now doing clearances but have made no attempts to show their dogs and these are dogs coming from generations of zero clearances & titles. However, when you look at their website--they're claiming these dogs are from great pedigrees & reflect the correct temperament and conformation which is misleading to the unsuspecting puppy buyer.


I agree many websites/people are dish honest. That does not change the fact that some people on this forum even after looking up show records and accomplishments of the breeders dogs Won't continue to bash them. I have first hand experience with that. most of my dogs are titled as well as having All clearances listed on OFA. I still got bashed. 




SheetsSM said:


> slow down or pause the breeding & focus on ensuring your breeding quality dogs?


Your interpretation of a "Quality Dog" may be different then the breeders. You may be looking for a show dog. The breeder may be looking for a dog that can do a Job. 


My point is that sometimes when someone asks the question "anyone know this breeder" it becomes a witch hunt. Any small infraction no matter how old becomes public record because some people do not take the time to email or contact the breeder for more information before condemning them to unethical breeder status. 

It is very sad and wrong:no:


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

This thread is staying relatively tame, but I just wanted to give a gentle reminder to keep your posts polite and think about what you have written before you hit "post reply."


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> I think people here care so much about the breed that there is a tendency to pounce and pile-on whenever they find someone who doesn't appear to be doing everything perfectly. It's done for the best of motivations, but I wonder if it's sometimes harmful and a little quick to judgment. And perhaps some decent and good people who are learning, evolving or just don't have everything online get unfairly tarred.
> 
> I express no opinion on this breeder. I know nothing about her. My only observation is that sometimes this forum can be a bit quick to condemn. And yet, it's hard to condemn the condemnation, because it's done with good hearts and a fierce love of the breed.


Agreed...

That's not to say that I don't respect the breeders here, I do...

I took the info provided in the stickys and other threads and went straight to my breeder with my questions. For the information I have gotten here I am truly grateful..


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Some of us newer golden people have shed tears in doing the right thing, and been held to high standards by mentors, inner ethics, and peer pressure too. I can count five us us easily who have had a beloved young dog fail a clearance, and all five did the right thing there- but it hurts. It is easy to come on too strong when someone else appears to bend rules you yourself must follow. . .


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> This thread is staying relatively tame, but I just wanted to give a gentle reminder to keep your posts polite and think about what you have written before you hit "post reply."



I have a very hard time keeping it polite anymore. Two of my friends as well as myself have been put through the ringer on this forum one of them has been breeding for over 35 years and has many CH behind her kennel name. 

All three of us are members in good standing with our local breed club. All of us do our clearances. Though some may not send them in to OFA to be recorded. Some use OFA for hips some use penn-hip, or both as a valuable tool. 

The fact still remains no matter how good we are their are people on this forum that will go back 10 year and comment on things that are no longer relevant.

I also care deeply for breed and only want the best for it's future. I guess the difference between me and some on this forum is that I will go directly to the source/breeder before condemning. I just wish everyone would do the same.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Ljilly28 said:


> Some of us newer golden people have shed tears in doing the right thing, and been held to high standards by mentors, inner ethics, and peer pressure too. I can count five us us easily who have had a beloved young dog fail a clearance, and all five did the right thing there- but it hurts. It is easy to come on too strong when someone else appears to bend rule you yourself must follow. . .


And THANK GOODNESS you do, no matter how difficult it is. :thanks:


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> Some of us newer golden people have shed tears in doing the right thing, and been held to high standards by mentors, inner ethics, and peer pressure too. I can count five us us easily who have had a beloved young dog fail a clearance, and all five did the right thing there- but it hurts. It is easy to come on too strong when someone else appears to bend rule you yourself must follow. . .



I agree I have had two dogs recently I have had to remove from my kennel. Both of which I bought from other kennels. Both did not pass on there hips. Both had been shown and obedience trained.

So will full disclosure they where placed into pet homes. 

The sad thing is that they both came form very strong hip lines. No matter how much testing we do there is never any garentee that your dog will pass all of the clearances.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*Clearences food for thought*

A little on and a little off topic. Yes, when a anyone posts a do you know anything about this breeder, it can get invasive for that breeder. If they have a public website, that information is scrutinized. This is the public "face" of the breeder and should be carefully crafted to put your best foot forward and to share what you as a breeder are all about. Is every breeder a techie or equally talented at self promotion? No. 

So, when I post to these threads I do additional research on clearences. If the breeder is in the US, I expect them to follow the GRCA COE, especially when they claim membership or link to the GRCA on there site. That would include submitting the records to CERF or OFA.

But, beyond the GRCA COE, it is my hope (I maybe a dreamer, but I'm not the only one) that all breeders love the breed and are doing the best they can with their knowledge to better it. If this is the case, please submitt the records. It really is very in expensive. Here are some thing you may have not thought about....

If you like to hold on to your records and don't submitt them to OFA, what happens if God forbid your house catches fire and destroys your paper records/computer records? 
What do breeders in future do if a prolific breeder of great dogs dies and a grieving spouse gets rid of all the well documented tests? 

Your tests are so important not only to you but to the future of this breed. Imagine if you have a fantastic dog that you can not prove clearences in his pedigree because of one of these losses. Will he be used by conscientious breeders? Or will they look to a different dog that has proven/recorded clearence for 5-6 generation? 

What will puppy buyers and the general public think when most dogs have clearances verifiable online and you do not? Whether right or wrong it raises questions and you might never have the opportunity to address them because people will just move on.

So, to every breeder out there who currently does not send in there records, please do. I will thank you, puppy buyers will thank you and the breeders of the future will thank you.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

What a great post, LJack.



> Your tests are so important not only to you but to the future of this breed. Imagine if you have a fantastic dog that you can not prove clearences in his pedigree because of one of these losses. Will he be used by conscientious breeders? Or will they look to a different dog that has proven/recorded clearence for 5-6 generation?


Good point. Most people will move to another dog, of course. But for those that choose to breed to this dog, it affects decisions in future generations, as well. Breeders looking at ancestral clearances will see the lack and decide not to breed to the offspring of this dog, or the grandchildren of this dog. It doesn't affect just this dog, it ripples through time if anyone _does_ breed to the dog.



> What will puppy buyers and the general public think when most dogs have clearances verifiable online and you do not? Whether right or wrong it raises questions and you might never have the opportunity to address them because people will just move on.


Unfortunately, there will always be buyers for puppies whose parents lack clearances. Most puppy buyers don't know and don't care about these things. They see a cute, healthy-looking puppy and a lovely healthy-looking mama, and the moment that puppy leans up against them all other thoughts leave the buyer's head and the puppy is sold.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

> Unfortunately, there will always be buyers for puppies whose parents lack clearances. Most puppy buyers don't know and don't care about these things. They see a cute, healthy-looking puppy and a lovely healthy-looking mama, and the moment that puppy leans up against them all other thoughts leave the buyer's head and the puppy is sold.


Guess I should have clarified...educated puppy buyers. And yes there will always be uneducated buyers or buyer who don't care.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> This thread is staying relatively tame, but I just wanted to give a gentle reminder to keep your posts polite and think about what you have written before you hit "post reply."


I strongly second this. When posts to any thread cease to be polite, we will close the thread. Too many otherwise-valuable discussions of breeding practices are cut short because opinions are not expressed courteously. Diverse opinions are important and welcome, provided they are communicated with respect for the community.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> Some of us newer golden people have shed tears in doing the right thing, and been held to high standards by mentors, inner ethics, and peer pressure too. I can count five us us easily who have had a beloved young dog fail a clearance, and all five did the right thing there- but it hurts. It is easy to come on too strong when someone else appears to bend rules you yourself must follow. . .


 
And there have been plenty of times that every breeder has been in the same position. If you are going to show and breed, it is a position you will be in. There is no way around it. I don't even want to think about the number of dogs that have been "culled" from my breeding program over the years, for a variety of reasons. One was a group placing girl from the classes with me as a complete novice, showing her. It happens.

My issue with this thread is that this breeder did not appear to have a mentor. She was breeding without knowing about a COE and did not have someone to guide her. She later became aware that there was a different way of doing things when she started going to some classes and then also joined a GR Club. To me, this person needs to be given the benefit of the doubt.

I do not see how any purpose has been or will be served to jump on this person. Especially, given that a lot of the information that was posted about her is not completely factual. One of the very first posts says that NONE of her dogs have OFA hip and elbow clearances and I am sorry, that is just not true. I went on her website and looked the dogs up on the OFA myself. The dogs do have hip and elbow clearances. That was what this whole thread started for-the fact that there were no hip and elbow clearances, and there are.

While I am very happy that many people do have mentors and information to start with that will help them to make the "correct" decisions, many people do not and so they have to learn as they go. At least this person is open to learning(considering she has gone back and done all the clearances) and is making much better choices at this point with her dogs. Is there room for improvement?? There is always room for improvement but as I said previously, especially with someone who has already demonstrated they would like to do things the right way, I would rather try to educate them rather than beat them with a stick.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

hvgoldens4 said:


> One of the very first posts says that NONE of her dogs have OFA hip and elbow clearances and I am sorry, that is just not true. I went on her website and looked the dogs up on the OFA myself.


I vaguely remember posting on this thread and went back to see that I was the one who posted that there were no hip or elbow clearances on the OFA website. When I looked, I really didn't see them. Sorry, I must have looked in at the wrong place. My apologies for making a mistake. I wouldn't post such a thing if I saw that they were there. I wasn't lying..


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

LJack said:


> So, when I post to these threads I do additional research on clearences. If the breeder is in the US, I expect them to follow the GRCA COE, especially when they claim membership or link to the GRCA on there site. That would include submitting the records to CERF or OFA.
> 
> But, beyond the GRCA COE, it is my hope (I maybe a dreamer, but I'm not the only one) that all breeders love the breed and are doing the best they can with their knowledge to better it. If this is the case, please submitt the records. It really is very in expensive. Here are some thing you may have not thought about....
> 
> ...


While this may exist in a perfect world, it will never happen. We have a lot of golden breeders who have been breeding for 30-40 years who are also technology challenged and so these things are not important to them. Many don't have websites and I know a few who do not use email. Barbara Dismukes passed away a couple of years ago. She was Hunts Kennel and a huge force when goldens were in their infancy in the US. She never had email but her contribution to the breed spanned decades. Many of you probably have some of her dogs in your pedigrees. Matt- CH Shargleam Ferryman was a very influential sire of the time and while he does not carry the Hunts prefix, he was owned and had been imported by Barbara. We do have a historian for the breed and many of her personal effects that concerned the dogs were put into the GRCA archives. This is what typically happens with a breeder like that so the information is not lost.

There is such a thing as picking up a phone.  In our world of high technology, everyone believes that everything should be at their fingertips. That will never happen with dogs. If something isn't listed, simply pick up the phone and call the breeder.

I also have to stress and this cannot be stressed enough-the GRCA COE is a GUIDELINE. It is not anything that is written in stone and nothing is going to happen to any breeder, if they chose not to follow it. Our COE even varies from that of other countries. The GRCA COE also does not say that the dogs must pass the clearances. It says that the clearances should be listed in an online database and there should be full disclosure. There are very many well known breeders who have done breedings outside the COE and if you shown in conformation, or have dogs that go back to conformation lines, those dogs are behind your dog.

As to your scenario of a fire or a breeder passing away.....this has happened many, many times over the years. The GRCA's COE was just changed about a year ago to reflect the changes you are discussing in regard to things being listed in a database. Goldens have obviously been around a lot longer than that. If dogs are used at stud or a bitch is bred, there are other people out there that have paper copies of the dog in questions clearances. Every stud packet I have ever recieved or given to anyone always has copies of the dogs clearances in it. There are also still many people who would like paper copies of an eye clearance so they can see/read any notations that have been made in the remarks section of the Eye Exam form(I am writing eye exam form because the Diplomates recently decided to stop backing CERF and now use OFA for eye exams and as a registry)

The breeders that I know of that do not routinely send in other information, besides hip and elbow clearances since those are added when the clearance is done, do not have any issues with placing their dogs because their repuation precedes them. Why do people come on here asking about a particular breeder at all when information can easily be verified online? Because it is more than just that information that makes a great breeder. It is the care and raising of the dogs/puppies, how they deal with the puppy buyers before and after the sale, etc.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I see that one of her dogs now has elbow/hip clearances. The film date was August 1st, two days before I posted here, so they were not on OFA when I had looked.

My mistake was only looking up "Sunset HFF" on OFA. She does have at least one other dog without that kennel name with clearances. 

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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I see that one of her dogs now has elbow/hip clearances. The film date was August 1st, two days before I posted here, so they were not on OFA when I had looked.
> 
> 
> I am not trying to point a finger at anyone.  What I am saying and your post above confirms that, is that this particular breeder has taken the time and done the right thing and there are clearances posted on the dogs that are being bred. It isn't just one dog. If you look at the litter she has now, the hip and elbow clearances are there. The same for the litter that is due soon. The others are in the planning stages and she lists on her website when final clearances will be done. Most breeders do make breeding plans pending the outcome of final clearances.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Another thread that is relevant to issues discussed here is this one: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...r-puppy/123061-basic-breeder-definitions.html. By the way, it is a good example of a very sensitive issue that is discussed in a way that is informative and well within the bounds of GRF rules. We so much appreciate that and the effort it takes!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

hvgoldens4 said:


> I am not trying to point a finger at anyone.  What I am saying and your post above confirms that, is that this particular breeder has taken the time and done the right thing and there are clearances posted on the dogs that are being bred. It isn't just one dog. If you look at the litter she has now, the hip and elbow clearances are there. The same for the litter that is due soon. The others are in the planning stages and she lists on her website when final clearances will be done. Most breeders do make breeding plans pending the outcome of final clearances.


Thank you.. I did add that my mistake was in only typing in the kennel name on OFA. I did not even look at the puppies page to see who the mother was, and didn't see that she does not have the kennel in her name. 

If I were a potential buyer from this breeder my research would have been more thorough than that.  I've learned my lesson.. I'll do the research before I post!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

"my mistake was in only typing in the kennel name on OFA..."


Why would this be a mistake? I did that with the breeder that I'll get my next Dane from. Check the link, all her dogs come up, even the ones that aren't being bred at this time. She has _pages and pages _of CHIC dogs. This is what, IMO, _every_ breeder should strive for. Is that too much to ask for in a breeder? I really don't think so...

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

kwhit said:


> "my mistake was in only typing in the kennel name on OFA..."
> 
> 
> Why would this be a mistake? I did that with the breeder that I'll get my next Dane from. Check the link, all her dogs come up, even the ones that aren't being bred at this time. She has _pages and pages _of CHIC dogs. This is what, IMO, _every_ breeder should strive for. Is that too much to ask for in a breeder? I really don't think so...
> ...


It was a mistake because she has a dog that does not have the kennel name. I incorrectly assumed she did not do hip or elbow clearances when in fact, the dam of her current litter had all four clearances. She did not have the kennel name in her registered name so she did not show up when I typed in her kennel name. I had incorrectly stated this breeder did not have hip or elbows on ANY of her dogs. 


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

kwhit said:


> "my mistake was in only typing in the kennel name on OFA..."
> 
> 
> Why would this be a mistake? I did that with the breeder that I'll get my next Dane from. Check the link, all her dogs come up, even the ones that aren't being bred at this time. She has _pages and pages _of CHIC dogs. This is what, IMO, _every_ breeder should strive for. Is that too much to ask for in a breeder? I really don't think so...
> ...


It is wonderful that you have found a breeder that has apparently been breeding for quite a number of years and has also done clearances on that many dogs. Not every breeder will have that available and that does not in and of itself make them a bad breeder.

Back when I was first breeding, if someone would have typed in "Harborview" in the search engine on the OFA website, nothing would have come up. My foundation bitch still will not come up as she does not have the name Harborview in her registered name but that does not mean she does not have clearances. You will find the clearances if you search on her registered name.

I personally prefer not to add my kennel name to dogs that I have purchased or taken as a "stud puppy" and I have owned a few of those, as well but none of those will show up on the search engine under Harborview. All of them will show up if you search under the registered name. 

The breeder in question does own dogs that do not have her kennel name in them, as well. When you search the registered name, the clearances come up. So, an incorrect assumption was made that none of the dogs had clearances.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

hvgoldens4 said:


> Back when I was first breeding, if someone would have typed in "Harborview" in the search engine on the OFA website, nothing would have come up.


But now you have a ton of pages on OFA which I think is a great indication of you as a breeder...but I do now understand what you mean by not just putting the Kennel name in OFA and just assume that there are no clearances if nothing comes up, especially if the breeder is just starting out and not breeding dogs with their kennel name. 

But wouldn't/shouldn't a puppy buyer be aware of the litter parent's name and go from there? And if the parent is from another kennel, put that kennel name in and expect clearances? For me, if the dog was good enough to be a foundation dog in their breeding program, I would want it's breeder to be established and have their dogs listed on OFA. Does that make sense?


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## whiskey creek goldens (Jul 12, 2010)

hvgoldens4 said:


> While this may exist in a perfect world, it will never happen. We have a lot of golden breeders who have been breeding for 30-40 years who are also technology challenged and so these things are not important to them. Many don't have websites and I know a few who do not use email. Barbara Dismukes passed away a couple of years ago. She was Hunts Kennel and a huge force when goldens were in their infancy in the US. She never had email but her contribution to the breed spanned decades. Many of you probably have some of her dogs in your pedigrees. Matt- CH Shargleam Ferryman was a very influential sire of the time and while he does not carry the Hunts prefix, he was owned and had been imported by Barbara. We do have a historian for the breed and many of her personal effects that concerned the dogs were put into the GRCA archives. This is what typically happens with a breeder like that so the information is not lost.
> 
> There is such a thing as picking up a phone.  In our world of high technology, everyone believes that everything should be at their fingertips. That will never happen with dogs. If something isn't listed, simply pick up the phone and call the breeder.
> 
> ...


WOW finally someone who gets it. Thank you this is what I have been trying to say all along THANK YOU!!!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

kwhit said:


> But wouldn't/shouldn't a puppy buyer be aware of the litter parent's name and go from there? And if the parent is from another kennel, put that kennel name in and expect clearances?


I know you weren't talking to me. But I just want to make a tangential comment.

Over and over on this site I see people with very high expectations of what a puppy buyer should or would do. Folks here hold the buyers to the same high standards to which they hold breeders. But except for buyers of puppies going to show homes, I just think the expectations here are unrealistically high.

If you have 10 puppies in a litter, and 2 go to show homes, that's still 80% of the puppy buyers who probably are not going to know (or care) very much about looking behind the dog, how to do it, where to look, etc., etc., etc. For the average _conscientious_ puppy buyer, asking the breeder for the parents' clearances is about as much as can be expected. It is going to be the extraordinary and very rare pet puppy buyer who will go onto the OFA website or k9data to look farther back. In fact, I'll bet right now that 90% or better of the pet puppy buyers who look for a good breeder don't even know _how_ to go on those sites and search, even if they know about the sites. The vast majority of people who want a good, healthy pet puppy don't even know what questions to ask.

So, it seems to me unrealistic to expect the vast, vast majority of puppy buyers to do anything but call you on the phone and ask how much the puppies are. And maybe, if they have some prior experience with the breed, they will think to ask about the parents' clearances. But that's the most you can expect. I think it is therefore incumbent on the breeder to do all that work for the puppy buyer. And to educate the puppy shopper, so that when that person calls up the next breeder she has a wealth of information and knows a lot more questions to ask than she did when she called you up.

Really, I keep reading in many threads around here all the things puppy _buyers_ "should" be doing. But it ain't gonna happen. Period. There "should" be world peace, pay equity, kindness all around, every child should be wanted, every family with a good retirement plan. But so many of the things that "should" happen don't. I "should" be able to go into a grocery store and leave my car running and come out and it will still be there. But I'm a fool if I expect that what should happen does happen. And that's true even with puppy buyers of the best intentions.

I put it all on the breeder. Breeders know, buyers don't. Breeders are educated, buyers are not. Breeders are like college graduates. The vast majority of puppy buyers are in fourth or fifth grade, at best. So, between a college graduate on one side of the deal and a fifth grader on the other, which one do you think is most likely to adhere to what "should" be known or done?

Okay. I feel better now. 

[/rant]


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> I know you weren't talking to me. But I just want to make a tangential comment.
> 
> Over and over on this site I see people with very high expectations of what a puppy buyer should or would do. Folks here hold the buyers to the same high standards to which they hold breeders. But except for buyers of puppies going to show homes, I just think the expectations here are unrealistically high.
> 
> ...


I think most people who don't know about clearances will unknowingly end up at a BYB. That is why the puppy buyer should know what to ask for, because the majority of breeders will be BYB and they are not going to tell you their dogs don't have clearances. I think it is actually rare that an unknowing puppy buyer ends up contacting a reputable breeder. People who don't know about clearances _probably_ don't know that there are reputable breeders and BYBs. Most will just Google "golden retriever puppies" and end up on Kijiji. I am a first time dog owner and I too, did not know there were different types of breeders. I looked on Kijiji for awhile. Luckily, I somehow ended up on this forum and learned how to find a reputable breeder.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Hvgolden4, I agree with a lot of what you say. You do make some excellent points.

Just want to point out that breeders who can get a test, write the check, lick the stamp and mail the envelope, should be able to do so on all the clearences. 

I do believe that a large part of breeder choice does come down to building a relationship and that does include phone and face to face interaction. Competition and clearences are only a part of the picture when it comes to selecting a good breeder.

Just talking for my teaching background, long time breeders will be shooting themselves and the breed in the foot if they obstenently refuse to take at least some tiny steps to make themselves or their dogs information more available online. 

I train folks as new hires to my organization. The majority are entry level and there for are Gen y or millinials. This level of connectivity is an expectation for these generations and this is also our next generation of breeders. If the information is not out there it is a good possibility they will move on to someone that does. Whether you feel this is right or wrong it will increasingly become an expectation. I know of breeders now that when looking for boys to breed to will knock dogs of the list if the clearences are not verifiable online. It would be sad to overtime to loose the contributions great dogs can make because the lack of mailing in a clearence.

So, I will always be an advocate for reporting the test results because in the end: it is not about the minimal cost, it is not about a need for control over our information, it is not about "creating" a reason people have to call me, it is not about my lack of tech knowledge, it is not about failing to embrace change, it is about the future of the breed that I love.

You will never here me stop saying to all breeders, everywhere, of every breed if you test _please_ send it in.

I will keep dreaming of a world when the Code of Ethics created to protect our breed is adhered to. And of course the sky will be gold and money will grow on trees


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

DanaRuns said:


> Over and over on this site I see people with very high expectations of what a puppy buyer should or would do. Folks here hold the buyers to the same high standards to which they hold breeders. But except for buyers of puppies going to show homes, I just think the expectations here are unrealistically high...In fact, I'll bet right now that 90% or better of the pet puppy buyers who look for a good breeder don't even know _how_ to go on those sites and search, even if they know about the sites. The vast majority of people who want a good, healthy pet puppy don't even know what questions to ask...Really, I keep reading in many threads around here all the things puppy _buyers_ "should" be doing. But it ain't gonna happen.


But it can happen...it's proven on an almost daily basis from people on both my boards posting that they now know how to go about selecting a breeder because of what they've read in many different threads. And that is why I post the things I do, every chance I get. For those "lurkers" that are drawn to different threads by their titles. They read what we post and suddenly a light goes off.  They're educated on the things to look for in a breeder. And then hopefully they'll tell others.



Vhuynh2 said:


> Luckily, I somehow ended up on this forum and learned how to find a reputable breeder.


See...it works. :yes:


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

kwhit said:


> They're educated on the things to look for in a breeder. And then hopefully they'll tell others.
> *See...it works. * :yes:


I have to agree with this statement. As I've said, I had zero idea what to look for in a puppy. I found this forum after I bought Bentley. I read and learned, I'm hard headed so it took me awhile but there comes a time when you can't ignore what's in front of you with facts and figures and links.
Now I do tell everyone what I've learned about clearances and breeders, even if they don't ask


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> ... Luckily, I somehow ended up on this forum and learned how to find a reputable breeder.


Me too! I am so grateful to the people who have helped educate me and make me a better mom for the dogs who grace my life.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Most will just Google "golden retriever puppies" and end up on Kijiji.


Is there anyway we can have GRF come up when people google this? At least in the top few sites that are given. My Dane board comes up the second site when "Great Dane puppies" is googled. We've had a lot of newbies find the board this way and they usually stick around and end up with a puppy from a reputable breeder. Just a thought...


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

kwhit said:


> Is there anyway we can have GRF come up when people google this? At least in the top few sites that are given. My Dane board comes up the second site when "Great Dane puppies" is googled. We've had a lot of newbies find the board this way and they usually stick around and end up with a puppy from a reputable breeder. Just a thought...


I think if any newbies spend anytime reading especially from threads like this one they'll see that as long as the breeder has begun to do clearances and talks about getting involved in a sport then they're "reputable". The ljilly's of the world are a rare type who actually take their time before leaping head first into a breeding program.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

kwhit said:


> But now you have a ton of pages on OFA which I think is a great indication of you as a breeder...but I do now understand what you mean by not just putting the Kennel name in OFA and just assume that there are no clearances if nothing comes up, especially if the breeder is just starting out and not breeding dogs with their kennel name.
> 
> But wouldn't/shouldn't a puppy buyer be aware of the litter parent's name and go from there? And if the parent is from another kennel, put that kennel name in and expect clearances? For me, if the dog was good enough to be a foundation dog in their breeding program, I would want it's breeder to be established and have their dogs listed on OFA. Does that make sense?


Yes, now after multiple generations of Harborview dogs that have been owned by myself and other people, there are a lot of Harborview dogs listed in the OFA database.

Yes, a person getting a puppy from a breeder should be able to request the registered name of both the sire and dam(if they aren't present on a website, etc) so that verification can be made as to what clearances have been done.

There will be cases when even a foundation dam will not yeild pages and pages on the OFA and my Bailey would be an example of that, as well. Her registered name is Parkerhouse Irish Cream. 
Here is her OFA record :
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals BUT if you punch in the name Parkerhouse, you won't come up with much.  You won't even come up with her mom, unless you were to look at Bailey's OFA record because her mom was not a Parkerhouse dog, she was a Tuxedo dog. The breeder that bred under the Parkerhouse kennel prefix only ever bred 2 litters of puppies. The litter that Bailey came from and one other which was a repeat breeding. She was new to breeding and Melody Weil of Tuxedo goldens was a very close friend and mentor. Life circumstances and a move to Bermuda for her husbands job and the dog restrictions in Bermuda did not allow her to continue to breed. Now, if you punch up Tuxedo, you will get pages and pages of records on the OFA. Tuxedo is not an active kennel name right now in goldens but was very well known in the past.

Bailey was actually a stud fee puppy that was taken from the litter in lieu of a payment for stud service. I did not get Bailey from her breeder, but rather the stud dog owner.

So, in short-there will always be exceptions to the rules!!


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

LJack said:


> Hvgolden4, I agree with a lot of what you say. You do make some excellent points.
> 
> Just want to point out that breeders who can get a test, write the check, lick the stamp and mail the envelope, should be able to do so on all the clearences.


Ok, lets step back again.  We are talking about long time breeders....when Barbara D passed away, she was well into her 80's and yes, she was still active with her dogs up until the last couple years. So, you believe that someone who has been doing things a certain way for 30, 40 or 50 years is all of a sudden going to change the way that they do things because the GRCA says it is easier for people to verify things that way?? Again, in that perfect world.  I am not making excuses, but I just don't see this happening.

We have also had many discussions about the costs associated with raising and breeding and showing goldens. The costs are obscene and I don't think anyone would disagree with that. There are also many breeders who have a big beef with the fact that these charges are on top of the clearances themselves and they have issues with the fact that the OFA will accept a heart clearance from a practioner, when it is supposed to be done by a cardiologist and that CERF charges every year on top of paying for the actual exam and they also charge the parent clubs for any information that they need. So, there are also some politics involved with the issue, as well.

As the costs, yes, it is $8 per year to recertify a dogs eyes. The GRCA is also now asking that all dogs who have ever been bred have their eyes done annually. A lot of breeders also don't agree with that. If the dogs are in their possession, they will continue to have their eyes done. But, many are placed after they are retired and while they can ask someone who then owns the dog to take them, it then becomes out of their control. For example, we usually do place our girls after they are retired. I explain to people about the eye issues and tell them I will pay for an exam, if there is a clinic nearby, great-many will take them. I do however, have one that the closest optho would be 5 hrs from her. Sorry, I do not see this pet owner, who is a single woman in her late 60's driving 5 hours one way to have a dogs eyes checked and I am not going to beat her over the head about it. We all do the best that we can. So, now we have $8 for every dog that we are currently showing, breeding and every dog that has ever been bred and then we also have to factor in the fact that the exam is anywhere from $35 to 50 per dog as well. This is not something that is inexpensive, as many would like to think and this is also something that is part of the new COE.

Moving on thru the COE. It is a guideline, it was never meant to be punative in nature. As I had stated in a previous post, nothing will happen to any breeder who does not follow the COE and it is a guideline because breeding dogs is not black and white. The longer someone is involved in dogs and breeding, the more shades of gray they will see. There are many things that need to be taken into consideration. For example, with elbows...other countries(notably in Europe) do not have an issue with breeding a dog with a grade 1 elbow, if the dog is asymptomatic. WHAT, you say?? Why would anyone ever do that??

Well, again, things are not black and white. There are many times that dogs are submitted to one registry and don't clear and will be submitted to another registry and do clear. This is a radiologists opinion from a 1 dimensional xray of a 3 dimensional joint. Because of the nature of the elbow joint, it is also more susceptible to wear any tear, than the hips would be. If you were to ask a radiologist if you could difinitively tell from an xray that a dog that was said to have grade 1 elbows, truly had elbow dysplasia, the answer would be no. There are different things that they look at with the elbow and some can be seen without question. But, many elbows that don't clear, appear to be normal on an xray. This is where we get into a gray area. The only true way to tell that one of those dogs had elbow dyslpasia would be to do surgery and look. Well, obviously, that isn't acceptable as a means for a clearance to have every dog have surgery to look at their elbows. So, we work with what we have available. 

I do know of breeders who have bred grade 1 elbows(the dog had been hit by a car and was grade 1 on the side they were hit by a car on) and is now 4 generations removed from that dog and none of her offspring that have been checked have failed elbows-and a considerable number of them have been checked because they were in show homes. 

I think that most people who are involved in any facet of conformation with their goldens knows who CH Amberac's Asterling Aruba was. Aruba's mother did not have a hip clearance. There are many, many generations removed from Aruba now and those lines don't show a higher rate of hip dysplasia than others. Another very well known dam is CH Aspenglo Angel Fire. Angel was a BIS winning girl who had quite a few littermates that did pass hips, but she did not. She was bred and her production record for hips is actually above the breed average, probably due to the stud dogs that were chosen for her and the fact that their hip production records were very strong.

I could go on and on about dogs that were bred "against" the COE that is in place right now-I should also state that back when Angel and Aruba were bred, there was not a COE but it was accepted practice at the time that hip and eye clearances were done.

We also now have DNA tests available for goldens. I see a lot of posts saying that all breeders should be doing those tests as well. The GRCA has not made an advisement in regard to those tests because there are a lot of things to consider with the decision to test or not should include considerations such as: the seriousness of the disease, the reliability of the test, the prevalence of the disease in the breed, and the presence of affected or carrier dogs in the vertical pedigree. 

So, we now need a dog with a great temperament, a dog that possesses good aptitude in the field, a dog that meets the golden retriever standard, a dog who passes hip, eye, heart and elbow exams and along with all the DNA tests and has titles to demonstrate their abilities. Hmmmm....then I see posts about how bad linebreeding is and how high is too high for a COI. As we do more and more testing, we will limit the gene pool further and further and continue to decrease the genetic diversity of the golden retriever. Because of all these things, the COE is a guideline. The dog who fails a clearance while the littermates have all cleared, statistically is better off than the one dog from the litter who passed its clearances when the rest of the litter failed.

These are some of those gray areas that I am talking about when breeding and why I say that breeding is more of an art than just a science. There are far more considerations involved with breeding than I could ever really touch on in a post here. 

I understand that we are all passionate about the dogs that we all love and hold dear. I ask that people not be quite so judgemental and sometimes understand that you have to look and think outside the box to "get it". It truly is one of those "until you have walked a mile in my shoes" kind of things. I read some of the posts on the forum and I used to be that person 20 years ago, before I knew how very much more was involved and how many more things needed to be considered.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

hvgoldens4 said:


> There will be cases when even a foundation dam will not yeild pages and pages on the OFA and my Bailey would be an example of that, as well. Her registered name is Parkerhouse Irish Cream.
> Here is her OFA record :
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals BUT if you punch in the name Parkerhouse, you won't come up with much.  You won't even come up with her mom, unless you were to look at Bailey's OFA record because her mom was not a Parkerhouse dog, she was a Tuxedo dog. The breeder that bred under the Parkerhouse kennel prefix only ever bred 2 litters of puppies. The litter that Bailey came from and one other which was a repeat breeding. She was new to breeding and Melody Weil of Tuxedo goldens was a very close friend and mentor. Life circumstances and a move to Bermuda for her husbands job and the dog restrictions in Bermuda did not allow her to continue to breed. Now, if you punch up Tuxedo, you will get pages and pages of records on the OFA. Tuxedo is not an active kennel name right now in goldens but was very well known in the past.
> 
> ...


Thank you for explaining that further. I think I just had my own  moment. Sometimes you have to dig deeper to get the whole picture.


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## SunnyCPE (Nov 10, 2012)

*Can't Please Everyone*

have a great day!
Trisha


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow, I think you should see a championship through from beginning to end, and then put a field trail title on a dog, before you make broad statements about what the dogs are like deep-down. This sounds like sour grapes from someone who has not done the work in either venue.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Breeding horses and breeding dogs is two different things. It is more than a little irresponsible to come on the forum and accuse breeders who have been doing it for many, many years of not breeding to the standard when you have very little experience with the breed.

Very few people are handed things in life on a silver platter. If you want dogs from champion lines that are correct and can do the job that they were bred to do, and believe me, there are plenty of them out there who can, you need to step outside your little world and show that you are actually serious about the breed.

Breeders, like myself, are cautious with our dogs and our breeding programs because we have put years and years into developing these dogs and don't want to see it ruined because someone is breeding irresponsibly.

No one handed me a thing-I did it all the old fashioned way-I worked my butt off. I started in goldens doing competitive obedience and put real titles with good scores on those dogs and was invited to Gaines and Pupperoni Events with those dogs. Those things showd conformation breeders that I was serious and that I was committed to the dogs in my care.

No one taught me how to groom, no one taught me how to handle and no one taught me pedigrees. I worked, I worked some more and I researched and I learned these things.

What good does it do if a dog has coat and is pretty if it can't move?? There are dogs who have all three-brains, beauty and they fit the standard.

I really feel it is beyond disrespectful to come on the forum with this type of post. You can get good dogs and go to good trainers but it takes work in a breed as popular and competitive as goldens.

I honestly don't know how many titled and champion Harborview dogs there are but I have been an owner, breeder, handler to many as well as earning group placements on many, too. There are dogs with hunt titles, obedience titles, breed chmapionships, therapy dog titles, agility titles and tracking titles. Now you are coming on this forum and telling ME that I am doing things the wrong way??

I am always open to learning and a good breeder is, but I would suggest you take a good hard long look in the mirror. AS the old saying goes, when you start pointing a finger at others, there are more pointing back at you.

Jennifer Craig
Harborview Goldens


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## SunnyCPE (Nov 10, 2012)

*my apologies*

Jennifer,
I appreciate your hard work and all you have done and will continue to do. I also appreciate your well thought out responses.

I was not and do not intend to point fingers at anyone. I was simply frustrated and hurt by people that don't know me. And, sometimes the best response is no response.

Learning as always...
Trisha


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

SunnyCPE said:


> Jennifer,
> I appreciate your hard work and all you have done and will continue to do. I also appreciate your well thought out responses.
> 
> I was not and do not intend to point fingers at anyone. I was simply frustrated and hurt by people that don't know me. And, sometimes the best response is no response.
> ...



Trisha,
I can certainly understand that people's words can hurt. People were commenting on the information on your website and on the OFA. Yes, we are always learning and most times, our actions speak louder than our words. 

I hope you continue with what you have started and keep on the right path. If that happens, instead of negative things, you will hear positive things. But yes, it takes time and hard work.


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