# AKC and UKC differences



## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I’m curious….as I look for people who train in the Evening or on weekends. What’s the difference between UKC started and AKC JH? Thinking maybe I could locate a UKC group. 

I was going to join the Sportsman’s club in my county in hopes of finding people to train with. I read their rules and found out that the only time you can train your dog is in January/ February. I kind of thought that would be the kind of thing a club like that’s for. For those of you who are not from Ohio…..that’s the coldest time of the year! Dogs could handle it but I’m a big baby about the cold. Search continues 🙂


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Here are links to the rules for both.


https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf




https://huntingretrieverclub.org/PDF/2017-hunting-retriever-rulebook.pdf


Minimal training is required for either junior or started tests. The problem with both, IMO, is dogs at that level are not ready for an event atmosphere. It can be detrimental to the discipline and obedience they are being taught. I think it is much better train to a higher level before entering an event.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Thank you! I’ll look into them. I will probably never have the time to train to the high levels. If I find the time I will go on. I do want to get a versatility certificate on Pilot.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Abeille said:


> Thank you! I’ll look into them. I will probably never have the time to train to the high levels. If I find the time I will go on.


*Good* training for an hour or so before or after work and occasionally with a group on weekends can get a retriever to MH level.
You will need some water to train on but it does not have to be big or complex.

A training mistake that I often see with hunt test people is "practicing for a test". They set up what a weekend test might be and run it repeatedly. This is like teaching a dog to do a trick. The dogs simply learn where the birds will be.
When the weekend comes and the test is not what they practiced, the dogs fail.
You need to train on concepts, how to deal with factors, challenge the dogs with difficult marks so they don't get bored. I never train for a specific event or according to rules about distance or numbers and locations of marks or blinds.
Train on what *your dog *needs and always be reading him or her to figure out what that is.

Here are two very good training resources, there are many others as well.





YBS Media







ybsmedia.com









YBS Media







ybsmedia.com


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Right. Problem is field isn’t our main goal. I have friends going for higher titles but they also have the option to train in the morning. I’m lucky enough to have a dog that seems to have a lot of natural ability. I do need to shape it though. Hopefully, I’ll find a group by the time it starts warming up.


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

Ohio river hunting retriever club might be a resource in your area.





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Hunting Retriever Dogs | Ohio River HRC | United States


Hunting Retriever Dogs Ohio River HRC The Ohio River HRC is a family-oriented non profit organization, focused on realistic hunting scenarios and we strive to help with continued education to ensure all owners, handlers, and breeders can conduct themselves with confidence to help promote the...




ohioriverhrc.com


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Golden Gibby said:


> Ohio river hunting retriever club might be a resource in your area.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!

They are 2 hours away but definitely an option!


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## Golden Gibby (Jan 8, 2011)

The club may be based 2hrs away but there might be other people from your area there that you could train with locally. If not they may suggest a club or training group closer to where you live.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

SRW said:


> Here are links to the rules for both.
> 
> 
> https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf
> ...


I agree with this, as you never should set your pup up to fail. If they are ready to run a more complex test, say SH vs. JH, then running them in JH has a good change off success, even with all the distraction of crowds, guns and other dogs running.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I would encourage anyone to participate in HRC events. That said, a word of caution. In the seasoned and finished levels a "diversionary" bird will be thrown at some point as the dog returns with a retrieve. A dog that drops the bird in mouth and picks up the diversionary bird fails the test. 
A litmus test to identify poor trainers is to watch for any that use collar pressure to "teach" a dog not to switch to a diversion bird. You can also tell by a dogs reaction, when the diversion is thrown, if it has been "taught' in this manner.



3goldens2keep said:


> I agree with this, as you never should set your pup up to fail. If they are ready to run a more complex test, say SH vs. JH, then running them in JH has a good change off success, even with all the distraction of crowds, guns and other dogs running.


Even more important IMO is that you cannot correct a dog for misbehaving at an event. Dogs can learn that real quick.

One of my training mentors told me a few years ago, whatever a dog does in training, only count on getting about 70% of that at an event. Sometimes you get more and sometimes less but overall I think it is a pretty accurate statement.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Which dog are you starting with ? Is it the dogs in your signature? Winx or Pilot? Or a puppy?


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Golden Gibby said:


> The club may be based 2hrs away but there might be other people from your area there that you could train with locally. If not they may suggest a club or training group closer to where you live.


Right. I’m not afraid to drive 2 hours. I’ve made several 2 hour trips to train. Sadly, I’ve been told the trainer isn’t doing the sessions anymore. Which is why I’m looking. There’s a closer group I’m checking into at the moment.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

nolefan said:


> Which dog are you starting with ? Is it the dogs in your signature? Winx or Pilot? Or a puppy?


I would be working with Pilot. Both of them have some scattered experience. Both have some natural talent. Pilot is better about it though. I’ve entered them both in a WC in the past. Winx at national in 2017 and Pilot was entered to support my club last year.

Winx enjoys it. She is very steady thanks to the exercises we did in a group training session. She needs work on bringing to hand. Ran past the birds on her WC. Didn’t ever get the first one. She was being ridiculous that day and it was actually a valuable lesson for her. She ended up getting her first CD leg a few days later when she realized I was done with her stupid crap. I can‘t train her though. She is my granddaughter’s 4-H dog which means she’s the only one who can train her.

Pilot needs work on steady exercises. Only because he’s never worked them. He’s great at bringing to hand on land. Needs a little work bringing to hand on water. Stops to shake but picks the bird back up and brings it when I tell him too. He made a rookie mistake and followed a mower line in the grass. He only missed the one bird. He’s had very minimal training. There is no doubt in my mind that if I had the time and knowledge he could do well. I did find a UKC test a couple of hours away. Maybe if I get a chance to train a little first, we will enter. He needs experience in test environments. 

My eventual goal would be for a VC. He has a good start with conformation and obedience.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

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Hunting Test Comparison Charts - AKC, CKC, UKC/HRC, and NAHRA - Golden Retriever Club of America







grca.org





This the best resource for comparing the two venues. In terms of started vs junior I think the biggest differences are in started they just need to deliver to the area (not to hand), you don't have to wait for the judge to release your dogs, and you can talk to your dog the entire time. In UKC you have to wear head to toe camo and beyond started you do handle a real shotgun. I've never actually run a junior test so hopefully I didn't get anything wrong. Overall started is generally seen as easier than junior tests.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

myluckypenny said:


> Overall started is generally seen as easier than junior tests.


I helped at a started test last year. Not much to do so I was mostly a spectator. The tests were very basic (that feels like an understatement). Of the 2 dozen or so dogs that ran only 2 or 3 would heel on lead. Most appeared to have little training, if any at all. I reviewed the rules the next day and that is about what is expected in started.
The people were all having a good time though so good for them.
I'll gladly help again but will ask to be at the upper level stake. It bugs me to see dogs running pointless tests that are detrimental to their behavior and future training


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

SRW said:


> It bugs me to see dogs running pointless tests that are detrimental to their behavior and future training


Me as well, I won't enter started again but it is a lot of fun for newbies to try and it does hook a lot of people into wanting to go further!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I understand what both of you are saying. I don’t allow acting like a complete fool. Can you skip started then? If I did take him, it would be so he could succeed at something. I’ve been told many times that he could definitely pass both JH and WC with current skills. He absolutely loves going out to do fieldwork.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Abeille said:


> I understand what both of you are saying. I don’t allow acting like a complete fool. Can you skip started then? If I did take him, it would be so he could succeed at something. I’ve been told many times that he could definitely pass both JH and WC with current skills. He absolutely loves going out to do fieldwork.


In AKC you can go straight to master, I believe it is the same in UKC.
As far as your pup succeeding at something, he should think he is succesful every time you train. Those ribbons on the weekends are for us, the dogs couldn't care less about them.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

You should start in Started/Junior for YOUR sake. It will help you learn the hunt test routine and be easier on your nerves. I am also 2 hours from a training area. OB is definitely my priority, but the dogs really enjoy hunt training. I was able to make a lot more progress in hunt training when I understood enough about it to break down things into simple doable parts and do as much of those tiny parts in my own yard and the surrounding fields as possible. I only use the training grounds from about March (after most of the snow melts and the club allows vehicles on the roads) through about mid-June. In late June, the dangerous grass seeds start to mature. It's a short training window and it overlaps with the main OB trial season. I can only make progress by doing little training sessions (10 or 15 minutes) in the yard and making as many "field trips" as I can to the training ground when I have a free spring weekend without an OB trial. 

For example, you say he has an issue with delivering to hand. You do NOT want to be training that type of issue on a group training day. On a group training day, you want to be letting him get accustomed to the excitement, other dogs, strange bird boys, etc. Tackle the deliver to hand issue in your own yard, first with a bumper, then a bird.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Abeille said:


> I understand what both of you are saying. I don’t allow acting like a complete fool. Can you skip started then? If I did take him, it would be so he could succeed at something. I’ve been told many times that he could definitely pass both JH and WC with current skills. He absolutely loves going out to do fieldwork.


As long as you maintain a high standard you are absolutely okay to start at the entry level. Like mentioned above, it really is a great place to learn as a handler. No way I would have jumped levels as a newbie, you need the line time in an actual test environment. Try a started test, I bet he would do fantastic and it will be good experience for you. Just don't let him act a fool!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

PalouseDogs said:


> You should start in Started/Junior for YOUR sake. It will help you learn the hunt test routine and be easier on your nerves. I am also 2 hours from a training area. OB is definitely my priority, but the dogs really enjoy hunt training. I was able to make a lot more progress in hunt training when I understood enough about it to break down things into simple doable parts and do as much of those tiny parts in my own yard and the surrounding fields as possible. I only use the training grounds from about March (after most of the snow melts and the club allows vehicles on the roads) through about mid-June. In late June, the dangerous grass seeds start to mature. It's a short training window and it overlaps with the main OB trial season. I can only make progress by doing little training sessions (10 or 15 minutes) in the yard and making as many "field trips" as I can to the training ground when I have a free spring weekend without an OB trial.
> 
> For example, you say he has an issue with delivering to hand. You do NOT want to be training that type of issue on a group training day. On a group training day, you want to be letting him get accustomed to the excitement, other dogs, strange bird boys, etc. Tackle the deliver to hand issue in your own yard, first with a bumper, then a bird.


That's Winx that doesn't deliver to hand. When she blew me off at a test, I put her back in her crate. Made it known that I was very unhappy with her performance. Turned out that it was just what she needed. Her performances everywhere else improved after that little lesson. It was force fetch lessons that had been started but I never got to follow through with the instruction and I didn't know what to do to continue it. 

He delivers to hand quite nicely going to heel position. He will drop it coming out of the water to shake off, then picks it back up. I need more time in the water to work on that though.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

SRW said:


> In AKC you can go straight to master, I believe it is the same in UKC.
> As far as your pup succeeding at something, he should think he is succesful every time you train. Those ribbons on the weekends are for us, the dogs couldn't care less about them.


I knew you could in AKC, but don't you have to get more passes than if you took the path?

He needs to be successful in that test environment. He's ALWAYS successful in practice! He cares about ribbons more than you'd think. I had to work with him to stop himfrom trying to take them from the judge when he earns them. I taught him that he can have them when the judge dismisses the qualifiers from the ring. He loves to strut around holding them in his mouth. How much he understands about how he got them, I'll never know. And he always goes to collect ribbons with me...after all, we both earned them.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

myluckypenny said:


> As long as you maintain a high standard you are absolutely okay to start at the entry level. Like mentioned above, it really is a great place to learn as a handler. No way I would have jumped levels as a newbie, you need the line time in an actual test environment. Try a started test, I bet he would do fantastic and it will be good experience for you. Just don't let him act a fool!


Absolutely! Never allowed to act like a fool at an event. I feel like he could use more work, but I'm very picky. Definitely just for experience. My thing with UKC is to treat it as AKC and chances are I won't break their rules for other venues. I feel like it would work about the same here.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Abeille said:


> He delivers to hand quite nicely going to heel position. He will drop it coming out of the water to shake off, then picks it back up. I need more time in the water to work on that though.


You need to finish force fetch with him. That is your foundation for correcting problems like this. More work in the water before completing FF will likely make the problem worse and possibly create others.


Abeille said:


> I knew you could in AKC, but don't you have to get more passes than if you took the path?
> 
> He needs to be successful in that test environment. He's ALWAYS successful in practice!


A master hunter title requires six passes or five passes with an SH title. SH is 5 passes or 4 plus a JH.
At any event your dog can succeed in getting the bird by doing all the wrong things, avoiding water, refusing casts, breaking, ignoring whistles……
Once your dog learns that you will have a hard time ever correcting it.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I haven’t yet really had the need to force fetch him honestly. I do know how to start it. I never really learned how to finish it. It’s probably been 2 years since Ive been to Joe’s. (Trainer I used to go to) He was great and I miss going. At that time I was teaching Utility articles so I chose not to do pile work. I needed him to shop. 

That‘s what I thought with the passes. There’s no way I would do that with Pilot anyway. 

I have reasons for not hitting it full time. Obedience and my allergies are the biggest reasons, oh and then there’s the work thing. I know that I can train in multiple venues…and I have….it’s just not going to fit in my life right now. I do want him to succeed at getting a JH or WC or both. I love seeing him doing what the breed was created for!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Abeille said:


> I haven’t yet really had the need to force fetch him honestly.


Yes you have.


Abeille said:


> He will drop it coming out of the water to shake off, then picks it back up.


There are many resources available to guide you through FF.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

SRW said:


> Yes you have.
> 
> There are many resources available to guide you through FF.


Not really. I taught him a pretty good hold. Obviously not good enough for water. He knows to release when asked. I teach the retrieve part they are babies. Other than the etiquette in the blinds and at the line, that’s all I’ve taught and he needs more of that. He is clueless when it comes to whistles. He wouldn’t know what to do if I put an e-collar on him. That’s the depth of what we’ve actually learned. I don’t know that I’d call it force fetch. 

I know I’ve tried to find stuff on the internet but I’ve only seen the beginning explained. Maybe I’m confused. I can understand why they wouldnt put the whole thing up. I don’t have a problem with any of it. Winx had much more training with force fetch and she’s been collar conditioned. I’ve never had cause to put an e-collar on him. He goes out and hunts it up if he doesn’t see it and comes straight back with it.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Try treating the drop and shake issue like a recall problem, not a hold problem. You don't need a group and just about any reasonably calm water body with a shoreline you can safely get to and back up from will do.
If you're not using an e-collar, make yourself a long line, long enough that he can get deep enough for the sides of his body to get wet. (Dogs will often not shake if they only wade.)
Make sure you're not stepping on the long line and that it won't snag, etc. Start by standing right next to shore. Toss the bumper so it's within the range of the long line, Say "come" or give a come whistle when he has the bumper and has turned around to come back. Gather up the long line quickly. As he gets close to shore, step back and remind him to come. The idea is that, if he's focused on coming, he's not going to stop and shake. If he does drop the bumper and start to shake, give him a quick tug and say "No, Come!". Don't worry that he's dropped the bumper, Insist that he come, praise when he gets there. If he likes his bumpers, he won't want to leave it behind. He will soon figure out that he has to keep hold of the bumper if he has to come and doesn't want to give up his bumper. 

Gradually move further from the water. It is also helpful to teach him to shake on command.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

PalouseDogs said:


> Try treating the drop and shake issue like a recall problem, not a hold problem. You don't need a group and just about any reasonably calm water body with a shoreline you can safely get to and back up from will do.
> If you're not using an e-collar, make yourself a long line, long enough that he can get deep enough for the sides of his body to get wet. (Dogs will often not shake if they only wade.)
> Make sure you're not stepping on the long line and that it won't snag, etc. Start by standing right next to shore. Toss the bumper so it's within the range of the long line, Say "come" or give a come whistle when he has the bumper and has turned around to come back. Gather up the long line quickly. As he gets close to shore, step back and remind him to come. The idea is that, if he's focused on coming, he's not going to stop and shake. If he does drop the bumper and start to shake, give him a quick tug and say "No, Come!". Don't worry that he's dropped the bumper, Insist that he come, praise when he gets there. If he likes his bumpers, he won't want to leave it behind. He will soon figure out that he has to keep hold of the bumper if he has to come and doesn't want to give up his bumper.
> 
> Gradually move further from the water. It is also helpful to teach him to shake on command.


That may work. Once it's warm enough to let him get wet, I can at least take him to a spot at the local lake.


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