# Novice Agility



## Deborus12

Loved watching this and jealous of his confidence with the teeter. This was my boy's Achilles heel so you've done a great job with him! We have great fun too.


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## CAROLINA MOM

Great job, looks like fun.


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## diane0905

Very cool! I am doing this with my dog, Logan. I need to take my tripod out and get some video. Does Felix have favorites? Logan loves the A-frame and dog walk. The teeter entertains him too. I think agility is so much fun!


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## Tagrenine

Deborus12 said:


> Loved watching this and jealous of his confidence with the teeter. This was my boy's Achilles heel so you've done a great job with him! We have great fun too.


Thank you! He does love the teeter, but we're still working on contact points and making him stop before flying off the end of it lol. We're both having so much fun and he does really enjoy it. 



CAROLINA MOM said:


> Great job, looks like fun.


Thank you!



diane0905 said:


> Very cool! I am doing this with my dog, Logan. I need to take my tripod out and get some video. Does Felix have favorites? Logan loves the A-frame and dog walk. The teeter entertains him too. I think agility is so much fun!


You should! When I was riding, I used to watch myself on video to see how I could change and improve and I want to do the same with agility  I just asked one of the other members of the class to record us 🤣 Goldens must be the same because Felix also loves the A frame and dog walk lol. He also really likes the tunnel!


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## pawsnpaca

Nice job! And I agree about the teeter... really solid performance for a beginner!

Not that you asked, but...Some hints from a former agility instructor (me!)... If you are going to invest in back yard equipment, I’d start with at least three bar jumps. You’d be amazed at what handling challenges you can set up for yourself with just three jumps. If you are working handling, keep the bar low (or take the bars out entirely and just work with the jump standards) so the dog can focus more on where he’s going and what you are telling him to do than collecting for the jump. There’s a lot you can teach even “on the flat.” I think he’s dropping bars because he’s focused on your hand. If you are running with a treat in your hand to “lure” him then I’d try wearing a bait bag or keeping treats in your pocket so your hand can be more of a signal and less of a lure. You might want to even try running with your hands at your sides ... you’d be amazed at how much dogs use our shoulders and feet to cue them where to go. 

If you are working on clean jumping at height, set up a “jump chute” with several jumps in a straight line. Start by calling him down the chute, then running with him, and finally send him down the chute independently (use a toy or food at the end as a target... ideally with a partner near the target to prevent him from getting it if he bails and goes around a jump). When he’s good at doing the chute independently, run with him but stay back a bit and introduce some sort of “go on” command so he learns to run ahead and do the obstacle in front of him on that command. If you have a fast dog that skill will save you in competition. I hate to think of the number of runs I've blown because there was a straight line of obstacles at the end of a run when I was exhausted and falling behind my dog and he turned to see where I was and incurred a refusal. 🙁

The other good thing to invest in for your back yard is a set of weave poles. It’s a challenge to get those smooth and independent so the more you can practice the better (though he’s doing very well for a dog that’s only been working a few months).

Some good resources for you...





Dog agility training products, dog agility online training


Since 1995 the largest selection of dog agility equipment, dog agility training information, and dog training products in the world.




www.cleanrun.com












Clean Run Success with One Jump 2-DVD Set


This 2 DVD set gives clear instruction on more than 20 exercises that will help improve your dog's understanding of the key handling maneuvers in agility, from a simple front cross to a more complex pull-through to distance skills. This video is a must-have for the seasoned competitor and novice...




www.cleanrun.com








__





Dog Agility Equipment at Affordable Prices! - AffordableAgility.com


The largest selection of dog agility equipment at affordable prices. Visit our Learning Center for dog agility training tips!




www.affordableagility.com





Happy to provide more feedback and suggestions if you want it, but since you didn’t ask... 😉

Welcome to the agility world. I think you’ll have a blast!


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## DevWind

That's a great start! I guess Goldens are notorious for having issues with the teeter. My guy almost has the weaves. We may end up moving up out of the beginner level classes next time.


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## mylissyk

That's a great start! When it clicks and he understands what you are doing he will be FAST! Agility is so addicting! Have fun with it.

And who knew the prerequisite for agility is ballet!


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## ceegee

How fun! He looks like he enjoys it. Ditto for what pawsnpaca said about not running with food in your hand. He's focusing on your hand instead of the obstacles. One thing I do to "desensitize" the food treats is to give a verbal cue before rewarding - so that the dog is listening for the cue instead of watching your hands. A "good job" or "yes" or something like that, to signal that the reward is coming. It's the same principle as a clicker. Ditto also her advice about the "go ahead" command - always useful unless you're Usain Bolt!

Since you're thinking of setting up some obstacles at home, it might be worth reading up on the "2 x 2" method of teaching weaves. I used it for the first time with Duster, and was very impressed with the results we got. It's a great way of reinforcing the entry gate (making sure he goes in on the correct side of the first pole), and of developing drive through the obstacle.

Congrats on the great teeter! It's so nice to see a novice dog that's not afraid of the obstacle. You've done a great job.


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## Tagrenine

pawsnpaca said:


> Nice job! And I agree about the teeter... really solid performance for a beginner!
> 
> Not that you asked, but...Some hints from a former agility instructor (me!)... If you are going to invest in back yard equipment, I’d start with at least three bar jumps. You’d be amazed at what handling challenges you can set up for yourself with just three jumps. If you are working handling, keep the bar low (or take the bars out entirely and just work with the jump standards) so the dog can focus more on where he’s going and what you are telling him to do than collecting for the jump. There’s a lot you can teach even “on the flat.” I think he’s dropping bars because he’s focused on your hand. If you are running with a treat in your hand to “lure” him then I’d try wearing a bait bag or keeping treats in your pocket so your hand can be more of a signal and less of a lure. You might want to even try running with your hands at your sides ... you’d be amazed at how much dogs use our shoulders and feet to cue them where to go.
> 
> If you are working on clean jumping at height, set up a “jump chute” with several jumps in a straight line. Start by calling him down the chute, then running with him, and finally send him down the chute independently (use a toy or food at the end as a target... ideally with a partner near the target to prevent him from getting it if he bails and goes around a jump). When he’s good at doing the chute independently, run with him but stay back a bit and introduce some sort of “go on” command so he learns to run ahead and do the obstacle in front of him on that command. If you have a fast dog that skill will save you in competition. I hate to think of the number of runs I've blown because there was a straight line of obstacles at the end of a run when I was exhausted and falling behind my dog and he turned to see where I was and incurred a refusal. 🙁
> 
> The other good thing to invest in for your back yard is a set of weave poles. It’s a challenge to get those smooth and independent so the more you can practice the better (though he’s doing very well for a dog that’s only been working a few months).
> 
> Some good resources for you...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dog agility training products, dog agility online training
> 
> 
> Since 1995 the largest selection of dog agility equipment, dog agility training information, and dog training products in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cleanrun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clean Run Success with One Jump 2-DVD Set
> 
> 
> This 2 DVD set gives clear instruction on more than 20 exercises that will help improve your dog's understanding of the key handling maneuvers in agility, from a simple front cross to a more complex pull-through to distance skills. This video is a must-have for the seasoned competitor and novice...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cleanrun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dog Agility Equipment at Affordable Prices! - AffordableAgility.com
> 
> 
> The largest selection of dog agility equipment at affordable prices. Visit our Learning Center for dog agility training tips!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.affordableagility.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happy to provide more feedback and suggestions if you want it, but since you didn’t ask... 😉
> 
> Welcome to the agility world. I think you’ll have a blast!



Thank you so much!! I'm always looking for advice, especially now since we're going to start working at home without the trainer. The jump chute is a GREAT idea!! So much of this is like horse training. I also suspected he wasn't paying attention because of the food but I definitely need to start using my words and reward commands. Especially with the contacts and weaves so that he really understands the idea. I'd hate to run a nice course and blow the contacts 🤣 Our instructor was telling us yesterday to pay attention to our shoulders because those are first body language cues we use, hands come after. He was blowing the last jump in the 3 set and going straight to the dogwalk so she told us about the "Beth Davis" shoulder, where instead of our left arm, I need to use my right arm and shoulder to "push" him towards the third jump and keep him from cutting that corner, and it worked!! I appreciate all the advice and can't wait to have our backyard stuff 😭😭


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## Tagrenine

Abeille said:


> That's a great start! I guess Goldens are notorious for having issues with the teeter. My guy almost has the weaves. We may end up moving up out of the beginner level classes next time.


Thank you so much!! I think the Novice class at this facility is a huge jump up but even just one class I could see improvements and I'm glad we moved up. I thought we were going to be so far behind the other dogs, but we weren't thankfully 🤣



mylissyk said:


> That's a great start! When it clicks and he understands what you are doing he will be FAST! Agility is so addicting! Have fun with it.
> 
> And who knew the prerequisite for agility is ballet!


Thank you! Agility is hard but it is FUN! And I'm happy to see him actually doing it and neither of us getting frustrated lol. He used to fall off the dog walk because he wouldn't pay attention to his feet so his coordination is definitely getting better!


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## Tagrenine

ceegee said:


> How fun! He looks like he enjoys it. Ditto for what pawsnpaca said about not running with food in your hand. He's focusing on your hand instead of the obstacles. One thing I do to "desensitize" the food treats is to give a verbal cue before rewarding - so that the dog is listening for the cue instead of watching your hands. A "good job" or "yes" or something like that, to signal that the reward is coming. It's the same principle as a clicker. Ditto also her advice about the "go ahead" command - always useful unless you're Usain Bolt!
> 
> Since you're thinking of setting up some obstacles at home, it might be worth reading up on the "2 x 2" method of teaching weaves. I used it for the first time with Duster, and was very impressed with the results we got. It's a great way of reinforcing the entry gate (making sure he goes in on the correct side of the first pole), and of developing drive through the obstacle.
> 
> Congrats on the great teeter! It's so nice to see a novice dog that's not afraid of the obstacle. You've done a great job.


Oh thank you for this, I will definitely try it! I'm really looking forward to practicing the weaves at home and I'm nervous about teaching them because I don't want to accidentally train them wrong.


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## diane0905

I ended up getting three jumps and 2X2 weave poles with the removable guide wires. I've only have three 2X2s so far, so six poles. It's pretty cool. I got wing jumps and they are wonderful -- light weight, but well made -- from ClipandGoAgility. I bought the 2X2 weaves from Max200 and they are nice, but shipping was expensive. I use an auto treat dispenser at home. When I'm taking agility, I just put treats in my pocket. I use them for his target (using a plastic lid) for two on/two offs and give him a treat at the end of a run.


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## Tagrenine

diane0905 said:


> I ended up getting three jumps and 2X2 weave poles with the removable guide wires. I've only have three 2X2s so far, so six poles. It's pretty cool. I got wing jumps and they are wonderful -- light weight, but well made -- from ClipandGoAgility. I bought the 2X2 weaves from Max200 and they are nice, but shipping was expensive. I use an auto treat dispenser at home. When I'm taking agility, I just put treats in my pocket. I use them for his target (using a plastic lid) for two on/two offs and give him a treat at the end of a run.


Oh perfect thank you!! We use a plastic lid for target training too 🤣 I'll probably start with the 2x2 and transition into the real set later. I'm excited to start really working on them  I think I can probably practice 180s and 270 at home with just three jumps.


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## DevWind

diane0905 said:


> I ended up getting three jumps and 2X2 weave poles with the removable guide wires. I've only have three 2X2s so far, so six poles. It's pretty cool. I got wing jumps and they are wonderful -- light weight, but well made -- from ClipandGoAgility. I bought the 2X2 weaves from Max200 and they are nice, but shipping was expensive. I use an auto treat dispenser at home. When I'm taking agility, I just put treats in my pocket. I use them for his target (using a plastic lid) for two on/two offs and give him a treat at the end of a run.


I have 2x2s now. Before that I made my own with the cheap electric fence poles and pvc pipes. It looks exactly the same to the dog.


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## diane0905

Abeille said:


> I have 2x2s now. Before that I made my own with the cheap electric fence poles and pvc pipes. It looks exactly the same to the dog.



Great. I'm sure it does. I thought about my daddy when I saw the 2X2 bases because it's welded metal of some sort. He could have made those for me. I'm not real good at DIY of this sort.


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## Tagrenine

Today was day 2 of class!

I was actually very happy today and think he improved in areas where he was weak and showed me other areas he needs to improve on. Our goals are weaves and teaching him to be clean and careful. The trainer told me to start using my voice more to help him realize he needs to actually pay attention and jump. Furthermore, the yard gets sod this weekend and the trainer offered us an old 2x2 set she has, but she said we need to move up to a full 12 soon. 

Teaching him to jump clean reminds me of training young horses to help them find distances and realize they need to pick up their feet all the way. I'm going to be training Felix a bit like a horse LOL. We had a ton of fun and I realized I'm super out of shape. 

Video for those interested


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## pawsnpaca

Noticeable improvement from the last video! I think the bars he was dropping on this run were due to being a novice than that he was focused on your hand the way he was last time. FWIW (and not wanting to contradict anything your instructor is telling you to do).... I generally don't jump my dogs at competition height in the beginning, and even my experienced dog usually does most of her training runs at a lower height (16") so she can focus on the course. I save full height jumps for jump chutes and maybe ONE training run, just so I can verify that she's not losing obstacle performance when we go up to competition height. With your boy still being such a novice right now, I'd ask to jump him at 16" for classes and save full height jumps for home practice (jump chute or when you are specifically working on clean jumps at full height) and/or for when he's just about ready to compete.


A few other bits of advice:

*Start line stays*: He's doing REALLY well with these but do continue to reinforce them. A solid start line stay will allow you to lead way out and get into the ideal position to start the run. I can't tell you how many dogs I see in competition (even at high levels) that won't hold a start line and then their handler is "behind" them right off the bat (I've even seen small dog handlers "bowl" their dogs by basically holding them at the start line and dropping them as they take off for the run!). I've never seen any run or handling style that benefited from the handler not having to lead out from their dog. In this video, if he held the stay (and he was looking like he might)... you could have lead all the way out to be by the weave poles and called him over the jump and he might have been more successful in hitting his entrance to the weaves (since he would have been focused forward to you already)..
*Contacts*: He's looking pretty good here too. I've done both stopped contacts and running contacts and, unless you are very fast yourself and/or intend to compete at the highest levels where every second counts, I would definitely stick with stopped contacts (again - allows you to either catch up or get into position for the next obstacle). You can "proof" these by keeping your dog on leash, letting him hit the contact (two on/two off), and then tell him to wait and _gently_ pull on the leash so he has to pull back to hold the contact. Reinforce him for resisting the pull and holding the contact. Introduce some sort of "release" command (I just use OK, but many people use "break!") so he knows when he has permission to leave the contact. Once he seems to "get it" that his job is to stay there till you release him, you can remove the leash and start running past to see if he'll hold the contact (and if he does, reinforce the heck out it!). Obviously, this is a _training _exercise - only do it on leash when you are doing just that obstacle (it shouldn't be done as part of the run).
*Weaves*: My instructor uses "gates" on the weaves and I've been amazed at how well they work to get the dog to understand how to navigate the weaves independently. She starts by using plastic fencing to create guides (short pieces connected to the poles with zip ties that allow them to be easily removed, and cut at about shoulder height so they are obvious but so that the dog can bail if they're uncomfortable. Once they are doing well with the fence guides, she moves to wire guides - first attached to the poles, then just on the ground, then just on one side or on the first and last poles, depending on where the dog is having issues. Here's a link to the guide wires. For the plastic fence option, just image if the fence extended from the wire to the ground (it's just a slightly more substantial barrier to discourage the dog from popping out). I've never tried the 2x2 method of training, so if you are being gifted with those and understand how to use them for training, by all means, give that a try instead. You might be able to do both... 2x2s for the initial training and add guides when you make the final transition to up-right/inline weaves.
*Table*: I've always taught my dog to down on the table. I think most venues have made the down optional as long as the dog keeps all four feet on the table until he's released, so it may be fine to not insist on the down. The advantage of the automatic down on the table is the dog is less likely to jump or slide off in the excitement of competition. The advantage of allowing a stand is a quicker departure from the table when you release him.
I'm enjoying seeing your growth in agility... please keep posing updates and new videos!


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## Tagrenine

Thank you Lisa!

For the stays, our beginner and intro classes pounded the stays into him. A lot of walking back and rewarding so he doesn't start to anticipate that every time we are at the start line he doesn't anticipate taking off. I just don't have confidence in myself when it comes to handling him right if I'm far away. Our trainer told us to start making a "tunnel" for him to help direct him. 

For the contacts, that is a great idea!! I don't think we'll need running contacts, but the static contacts yes! I can probably get a membership to the facility and practice it there. I think he would wait, but I'll definitely need to reinforce me walking ahead of him. 

I do not think we'll use the 2x2s, but the guide wires you and Diane mentioned will probably work better. If he pops out with the wires I'll add the fence posts, but I'm hoping the wires will be enough lol. I think I'll go ahead and get a set of 12 poles to stick in the ground and get the guide wires. 

I didn't even know down was a requirement before lol. I think he would probably down on the table and I think it wouldn't hurt to make sure that he's able to down on command when I ask him to on the table. I think it'll be harder once he really starts getting the hang of things and begins to anticipate things more. 

Thank you! I enjoy the videos and I definitely feel like all the running will help me get in shape lol. I was so winded after course 3.


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## Tagrenine

Apologies for the short video! I wasn't going to ask anyone to record this week, but the husband of the Border Collie owner got a video for me unprompted, but didn't want to record past where we had stopped.

We ran five 14 obstacle courses today and Felix and I are beat. It was 2 back to back and then 3 in a row. We also did some handling practice indoors that was quite fun. When Felix gets tired he stops paying attention, so I definitely need to build his endurance. Something that impressed me today is that twice he found his way into the two by twos himself and I wasn't expecting it.

We're going to sign up for another 4 classes but I'm really happy with him. We have to practice our contacts because during our first course he didn't bother collecting himself and came flying off the pause table, the teeter, the a frame and the dog walk. Next courses were much better. I've also found that if I'm struggling with him not looking ahead, I need to reinforce the fact that I don't have a treat in my hand lol.


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## PalouseDogs

I've REALLY tried to avoid comment, partly because Lisa has already touched on most of what I would say (and more diplomatically), and partly because almost everyone starting in agility (including me, many years ago) makes exactly the same mistakes, and we all kind of have to bumble our way through our initial desire to see results right away. You want to feel like you are making progress by running "real" courses. I'm chiming in because you say you are going to sign up for 4 more classes. Before you do that, I strongly, strongly suggest you find a different instructor, or, if you don't know anyone better in your area, enroll in a couple of online Clean Run courses while you look for someone better.

NO instructor who knows what they are doing would let you lead a dog around a course with a treat, certainly not at full-height jumps.

*Be a splitter, not a lumper. *
Teach you dog to do the obstacles indepently and at a distance before you ever incorporate them in a course. Until you can send that dog out to the weaves from a distance of at least 20 feet at any approach angle from either side, do not run a course that includes weaves. Do not run a sequence of 2 jumps until you can send him out to a single jump from across the yard at any angle. Do not even think about putting the jumps at full height until you can do a sequence of several jumps from a distance, first with the bars ON THE GROUND, then a few inches, then half-height, etc.

*Get rid of the lure*
You are luring the dog around the course and teaching him to trot along staring at your hand. He MUST learn to move away from you. You are much younger than I am, so you do not have to think about extreme distance handling, but even you cannot run faster than your dog. "Distance" means different things to different people, but even a youngster like yourself needs to think in terms of getting your dog at least 10 feet away from you. Also, those weaves MUST be completely independent.

You can use cones and just a handful of jumps or homemade hoops to work on handling and sequences at a distance. A couple of courses I'd suggest to start are:









 Clean Run 65 Things You Can Do With Some Cones


You can train tons of important agility behaviors and practice your agility handling skills with just a few cones! In this self-study course, you'll learn 65 training exercises you can do with cones at home. Work at your own pace through basic, intermediate, and advanced exercises using from one...




www.cleanrun.com












Clean Run Just One More Step: The Power of Movement When Working at a Distance


In




www.cleanrun.com




Clean Run also sells sets of cones (cheap and portable). Avoid buying orange or red cones. Dogs see those as brown/green. They don't stand out against grass. 

If you are really serious, buy yourself a set of 2x2s and a set of weave poles. Weaves take longer to teach than any other obstacle in agility. It's nice to be able to have short, daily training sessions in your yard, if you can afford that luxury. If not, try to find either an instructor that teaches weaves as a separate, stand-alone class or a facility where you can rent time to train on weaves. 

Good luck! Looks like you might be hooked.


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## Tagrenine

PalouseDogs said:


> I've REALLY tried to avoid comment, partly because Lisa has already touched on most of what I would say (and more diplomatically), and partly because almost everyone starting in agility (including me, many years ago) makes exactly the same mistakes, and we all kind of have to bumble our way through our initial desire to see results right away. You want to feel like you are making progress by running "real" courses. I'm chiming in because you say you are going to sign up for 4 more classes. Before you do that, I strongly, strongly suggest you find a different instructor, or, if you don't know anyone better in your area, enroll in a couple of online Clean Run courses while you look for someone better.
> 
> NO instructor who knows what they are doing would let you lead a dog around a course with a treat, certainly not at full-height jumps.
> 
> *Be a splitter, not a lumper. *
> Teach you dog to do the obstacles indepently and at a distance before you ever incorporate them in a course. Until you can send that dog out to the weaves from a distance of at least 20 feet at any approach angle from either side, do not run a course that includes weaves. Do not run a sequence of 2 jumps until you can send him out to a single jump from across the yard at any angle. Do not even think about putting the jumps at full height until you can do a sequence of several jumps from a distance, first with the bars ON THE GROUND, then a few inches, then half-height, etc.
> 
> *Get rid of the lure*
> You are luring the dog around the course and teaching him to trot along staring at your hand. He MUST learn to move away from you. You are much younger than I am, so you do not have to think about extreme distance handling, but even you cannot run faster than your dog. "Distance" means different things to different people, but even a youngster like yourself needs to think in terms of getting your dog at least 10 feet away from you. Also, those weaves MUST be completely independent.
> 
> You can use cones and just a handful of jumps or homemade hoops to work on handling and sequences at a distance. A couple of courses I'd suggest to start are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clean Run 65 Things You Can Do With Some Cones
> 
> 
> You can train tons of important agility behaviors and practice your agility handling skills with just a few cones! In this self-study course, you'll learn 65 training exercises you can do with cones at home. Work at your own pace through basic, intermediate, and advanced exercises using from one...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cleanrun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clean Run Just One More Step: The Power of Movement When Working at a Distance
> 
> 
> In
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cleanrun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clean Run also sells sets of cones (cheap and portable). Avoid buying orange or red cones. Dogs see those as brown/green. They don't stand out against grass.
> 
> If you are really serious, buy yourself a set of 2x2s and a set of weave poles. Weaves take longer to teach than any other obstacle in agility. It's nice to be able to have short, daily training sessions in your yard, if you can afford that luxury. If not, try to find either an instructor that teaches weaves as a separate, stand-alone class or a facility where you can rent time to train on weaves.
> 
> Good luck! Looks like you might be hooked.


Thank you!! I actually have been looking into other classes, but I’m not super sure how to tell if an instructor is worth their salt! Especially because I have zero experience myself 🤣
I did buckle down and order a set of 12 weaves and three jumps and will be practicing them at home.
I also have the option to get a membership to this place and to come use the equipment and field whenever I want. That combined with at home practice, do you think that would be the best option? 
I agree I am hesitant, but I just feel like I don’t know enough to train myself.


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## Tagrenine

For anyone with more knowledge of trainers, could you help me look for agility instructors down here? Google has been pretty barren as far as finding classes/instructors down here.


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## pawsnpaca

There are very few places who “certify” agility instructors and there are far too many instructors who are really still novices themselves. Most don’t even know how to keep both dogs and handlers safe, much less teach the foundational skills you really need to be competitive. I started teaching after getting my first Excellent title on my dog, and later I did get a trainer certification (from White Mountain Agility School) but the more I learn the more I know how much I didn’t know when I started teaching. I was fortunate in having a USDAA judge as my first agility instructor, and my advanced training from Brenda Buja and Julie Daniels (both well known and respected) as well as access to workshops by other nationally known trainers/competitors, so my foundations were pretty strong, but many aren’t as fortunate and don’t have access to a lot of good resources.

Anyway, I’m rambling here... 😊

Where are you located?

One option would be to attend some local trials and chat up the competitors who are either clearly skilled handlers or who are placing in their classes and find out who they train with (or if they are trainers themselves). If you let us know where you live and how far you are willing to travel we can let you know what trials may be coming up in your area ( keeping in mind that many still have COVID restrictions that may not allow for observers... but hopefully that will change soon, or we can find you some outdoor trials).

in addition to the Clean Run courses Kelly mentioned, Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and Susan Garrett (Say Yes dog training) offer some good online courses. BUT, nothing beats a good in-person instructor, so let’s see if we can help you find one of those first!


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## Tagrenine

pawsnpaca said:


> There are very few places who “certify” agility instructors and there are far too many instructors who are really still novices themselves. Most don’t even know how to keep both dogs and handlers safe, much less teach the foundational skills you really need to be competitive. I started teaching after getting my first Excellent title on my dog, and later I did get a trainer certification (from White Mountain Agility School) but the more I learn the more I know how much I didn’t know when I started teaching. I was fortunate in having a USDAA judge as my first agility instructor, and my advanced training from Brenda Buja and Julie Daniels (both well known and respected) as well as access to workshops by other nationally known trainers/competitors, so my foundations were pretty strong, but many aren’t as fortunate and don’t have access to a lot of good resources.
> 
> Anyway, I’m rambling here... 😊
> 
> Where are you located?
> 
> One option would be to attend some local trials and chat up the competitors who are either clearly skilled handlers or who are placing in their classes and find out who they train with (or if they are trainers themselves). If you let us know where you live and how far you are willing to travel we can let you know what trials may be coming up in your area ( keeping in mind that many still have COVID restrictions that may not allow for observers... but hopefully that will change soon, or we can find you some outdoor trials).
> 
> in addition to the Clean Run courses Kelly mentioned, Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and Susan Garrett (Say Yes dog training) offer some good online courses. BUT, nothing beats a good in-person instructor, so let’s see if we can help you find one of those first!


Thank you!! I agree! I definitely want to get the best foundations I can. For this area I really would’ve expected there to be more classes but there are surprisingly so few good dog schools.

I’m in Delray Beach (33445) and would be willing to drive an hour, maybe an hour and a half for the right instructor. I did happen to subscribe to clean run courses today!!


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## diane0905

I didn’t say anything because we just started in November, but we don’t run a course like you are doing. We strung together jumps and the tunnel and have done nine to eleven that way, but when we work on the teeter, A Frame and Dog Walk, we maybe use one or two jumps or a cone with and are really being made to stick the two on two off landing. We have practiced that A LOT — and we’ve worked on releasing him and heading on to the next jump. It’s not that he’s bad at those. He sticks it very well. She just said we need that to be solid.

Jumps were very low at first and just raised some a few weeks ago. 

I have the weaves at home, but need to practice more than I do. We don’t do them on a course yet.

I wish we had an indoor facility here. I’m not sure how committed I am to agility yet. I worry about injuries and wear and tear.

I do think it’s tons of fun though and get you loving it. Your dog appears to. Mine does also. Good luck finding an instructor!

Edit: Oh. Early on we used a treat dispenser at the end of what we were doing. Now I just treat him when he’s done with a run or we play with a tug toy. We do use treats for the 2 on 2 offs.


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## pawsnpaca

Tagrenine said:


> I’m in Delray Beach (33445) and would be willing to drive an hour, maybe an hour and a half for the right instructor. I did happen to subscribe to clean run courses today!!


Is that Delray Beach, Florida? Let me see what I can find. Can you tell me who you are currently training with?


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## Tagrenine

diane0905 said:


> I didn’t say anything because we just started in November, but we don’t run a course like you are doing. We strung together jumps and the tunnel and have done nine to eleven that way, but when we work on the teeter, A Frame and Dog Walk, we maybe use one or two jumps or a cone with and are really being made to stick the two on two off landing. We have practiced that A LOT — and we’ve worked on releasing him and heading on to the next jump. It’s not that he’s bad at those. He sticks it very well. She just said we need that to be solid.
> 
> Jumps were very low at first and just raised some a few weeks ago.
> 
> I have the weaves at home, but need to practice more than I do. We don’t do them on a course yet.
> 
> I wish we had an indoor facility here. I’m not sure how committed I am to agility yet. I worry about injuries and wear and tear.
> 
> I do think it’s tons of fun though and get you loving it. Your dog appears to. Mine does also. Good luck finding an instructor!
> 
> Edit: Oh. Early on we used a treat dispenser at the end of what we were doing. Now I just treat him when he’s done with a run or we play with a tug toy. We do use treats for the 2 on 2 offs.


I really want to nail the 2 on 2 off!! We started with low jumps with the first trainer but this one uses them at full height. I would LOVE an indoor facility. The mosquitoes and heat are terrible.I do worry about the wear and tear and its partly the reason I'm worried about running 5 courses a night at full height LOL. I think Felix would run the course without a lure, but the tug toy is a GREAT idea!!



pawsnpaca said:


> Is that Delray Beach, Florida? Let me see what I can find. Can you tell me who you are currently training with?


Yep!! I've worked with Kim Carey and Anna Strait (I'm pretty sure that's the current instructor's name).


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## pawsnpaca

Ok, I did some Google foo tonight. You’re right... I didn’t find much in your immediate area.

Your best bet may be to reach out to some resources even if they’re not a reasonable drive from you and see if you can get some referrals. As with most things, people “in the sport” generally have a pretty good idea of what is available on their state or area.

There used to be a business in Delray Beach called Blazing Paws Agility (Leslie Granville-Smith was the owner/instructor). It looks like she may have closed that business and moved to Boca Raton (?) but it might be worth trying to track her down to see if she has any ideas in your area.

One of the best resources I found anywhere near you was the Obedience Training Club of Palm Beach County. Looks like they offer agility classes up to competition level.

I Googled “Dog Agility Club Florida” and that got me lots of agility clubs in the state... just none particularly close to you. But, I encourage you to repeat that search and maybe reach out to some of those clubs for recommendations for instructors near you.

I discovered a site called www.dogagilitytrials.com that has a search function to help you find trials by state.

I also checked the AKC site... it looks like there are quite a few trials coming up this summer in Punta Gorda... That looks like quite a drive for you, but...

Hopefully that will at least get you started!


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## Tagrenine

pawsnpaca said:


> Ok, I did some Google foo tonight. You’re right... I didn’t find much in your immediate area.
> 
> Your best bet may be to reach out to some resources even if they’re not a reasonable drive from you and see if you can get some referrals. As with most things, people “in the sport” generally have a pretty good idea of what is available on their state or area.
> 
> There used to be a business in Delray Beach called Blazing Paws Agility (Leslie Granville-Smith was the owner/instructor). It looks like she may have closed that business and moved to Boca Raton (?) but it might be worth trying to track her down to see if she has any ideas in your area.
> 
> One of the best resources I found anywhere near you was the Obedience Training Club of Palm Beach County. Looks like they offer agility classes up to competition level.
> 
> I Googled “Dog Agility Club Florida” and that got me lots of agility clubs in the state... just none particularly close to you. But, I encourage you to repeat that search and maybe reach out to some of those clubs for recommendations for instructors near you.
> 
> I discovered a site called www.dogagilitytrials.com that has a search function to help you find trials by state.
> 
> I also checked the AKC site... it looks like there are quite a few trials coming up this summer in Punta Gorda... That looks like quite a drive for you, but...
> 
> Hopefully that will at least get you started!


Thank you SO much!! I just sent an email to OTCPBC, I've been meaning to take obedience classes there too! I'll see if I can get ahold of Leslie, Boca is very close and she would hopefully know other local trainers. 

I used to live in central Florida and there was SO MUCH MORE dog stuff than down here. I'm always shocked because there are so many dogs down here!! Punta Gorda is on the other coast, but it is probably only about a 3 hour drive. Definitely worth a weekend trip. 

I can't tell you how much I appreciate it! There are a lot of things I want to be competitive in, so I really want to establish good foundations and do it the right way.


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## PalouseDogs

Not much to add to Lisa's comments. I am in Washington state, just about as far away as you can get from Florida in the continental US, so have no idea where you might go. One thing, though. If you don't have any luck finding a close instructor for weekly classes, a good alternative is to find someone close enough to train with once a month or even every other month. You might arrange for longer than normal sessions, but your dog would not be training for the whole session. A good instructor will have you doing a lot of work without your dog, to make sure you are moving correctly. They can also catch mistakes before they get out of hand. You can go home with a set of exercises to work on until the next session. A friend of mine (the person that has gotten me restarted in agility after a 15-year hiatus) drives once a month to a distance instruction in Montana and stays overnight. Infrequent visits to a good instructor for private or semi-private lessons can get you further than weekly classes where you are learning a lot of stuff you'll essentially have to unlearn if you want more than a Novice title. Nowadays, a lot of instructors do a mix of remote teaching (with videos) and in-person classes.


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## pawsnpaca

I agree with Kelly. Traveling once a month for one on one instruction from a really good trainer would in the end be a better use of your time and money than years spent learning bad habits from a poor trainer, especially if your end goal is upper level titles.

But don’t give up quite yet. The instructors at Blazing Paws and your local obedience club looked promising, so go ahead and try to find a local option first (or plan to do both - regular classes with a good local instructor and occasional “privates” with an excellent instructor elsewhere in the state).


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## Tagrenine

Great idea!! I’m on mobile so my reply won’t be as thorough but I can absolutely plan once a month to make a trip. I’m pretty sure I could head to Orlando or Ocala and find some very nice trainers. 
Question: when do you know your dog is ready to compete? Do you just one day go for it or do you practice to perfection?


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## diane0905

Tagrenine said:


> Great idea!! I’m on mobile so my reply won’t be as thorough but I can absolutely plan once a month to make a trip. I’m pretty sure I could head to Orlando or Ocala and find some very nice trainers.
> Question: when do you know your dog is ready to compete? Do you just one day go for it or do you practice to perfection?


I'm interested also. I was told a year to a year and a half. We started when Logan was a year old, so that's why we didn't do full jumps. Since you live in Florida, you may have this issue also, but I think the only training I will be able to do in July and August is indoor training (not an agility course) or on my own in the mountains because it is getting too hot here.


----------



## PalouseDogs

Tagrenine said:


> Question: when do you know your dog is ready to compete? Do you just one day go for it or do you practice to perfection?


That's a complicated question to answer! The experienced people in most dog sports will usually say to show in Novice when you dog is nearly ready for the highest level. That's great advice if you already have titles in at least the lower levels. You already know you can do it and you have enough practical trial experience to have worked out what to bring, etc. 

In Obedience, I know I showed my first 3 dogs too soon. I was kind of a slow learner. I was much more patient by my 4th dog, but even then, I wish I'd waited a little longer. With my 5th, and current OB dog, Pinyon, I did not show him until he was a year and a half old, When he finished his Novice title, I was able to transfer up to the next level right away. Barring disaster, he will be my first OTCH dog. (He is 3/4 of the way there.) By the time I got to him, I didn't need any more Novice titles to prove to myself I could put a CD on a dog. I was thinking about the OTCH goal from day one. 

However, I think asking a beginner to wait until they are running at MACH level is too high a bar. You need a little feedback and those first few ribbons, even if you don't wow the pants off the spectators. I'd say you should sign up for your first show when your dog has independent weaves and contacts and is moving with a reasonable degree of confidence on a course at least 10 feet away from you. 

By independent weaves, I mean the dog is entering the poles correctly from either side and most angles. (Maybe not ready for the extreme angles of a world team member.) It takes about 6 months to a year to teach independent weaves to most dogs. It is the obstacle that takes the longest to teach, so start working on weaves from day one, and work on them separate from everything else until the dog is doing 12 poles without any babysitting. 

By independent contacts, if you are teaching a 2on/2off, the dog should be stopping at the bottom automatically without you pointing to the bottom or standing near the contact. 

I think it's a good idea to mark a date on your calendar, say a year from now, and plan to enter a Novice trial. Setting a deadline, even if you ultimately push it back, is the best way to get yourself to get out and train nearly every day. Initially, your training sessions might involve a few minutes of weave and/or contact training then a short session of handling with 2 or 3 cones. Work on the handling separately, with cones, hoops or bars on the ground at first. You don't want your dog to have to think about handling and the mechanics of jumping at the same time. When the handling is smooth, slowly raise the jump height. 

In the meantime, while you're working up to showing your own dog, volunteer at a few agility trials. It's the best way to see how an agility trial functions and you can check out everybody's set-up to figure out what kind of shade canopy, chair, crate, etc you might want to invest in before your first trial. You can also watch other handlers, in and out of the ring, without the stress of worrying about your own run. 

Your year of preparation will fly by. Enjoy the training. Keep sessions short and fun, etc.


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## Tagrenine

diane0905 said:


> I'm interested also. I was told a year to a year and a half. We started when Logan was a year old, so that's why we didn't do full jumps. Since you live in Florida, you may have this issue also, but I think the only training I will be able to do in July and August is indoor training (not an agility course) or on my own in the mountains because it is getting too hot here.


Yes, unfortunately we were told once July starts classes are going to end as far as outdoor stuff. A combination of weather (although we're in a drought right now so who knows) and heat. Felix in particular does not do well at all in the heat and I feel bad subjecting him to it.


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## Tagrenine

PalouseDogs said:


> That's a complicated question to answer! The experienced people in most dog sports will usually say to show in Novice when you dog is nearly ready for the highest level. That's great advice if you already have titles in at least the lower levels. You already know you can do it and you have enough practical trial experience to have worked out what to bring, etc.
> 
> In Obedience, I know I showed my first 3 dogs too soon. I was kind of a slow learner. I was much more patient by my 4th dog, but even then, I wish I'd waited a little longer. With my 5th, and current OB dog, Pinyon, I did not show him until he was a year and a half old, When he finished his Novice title, I was able to transfer up to the next level right away. Barring disaster, he will be my first OTCH dog. (He is 3/4 of the way there.) By the time I got to him, I didn't need any more Novice titles to prove to myself I could put a CD on a dog. I was thinking about the OTCH goal from day one.
> 
> However, I think asking a beginner to wait until they are running at MACH level is too high a bar. You need a little feedback and those first few ribbons, even if you don't wow the pants off the spectators. I'd say you should sign up for your first show when your dog has independent weaves and contacts and is moving with a reasonable degree of confidence on a course at least 10 feet away from you.
> 
> By independent weaves, I mean the dog is entering the poles correctly from either side and most angles. (Maybe not ready for the extreme angles of a world team member.) It takes about 6 months to a year to teach independent weaves to most dogs. It is the obstacle that takes the longest to teach, so start working on weaves from day one, and work on them separate from everything else until the dog is doing 12 poles without any babysitting.
> 
> By independent contacts, if you are teaching a 2on/2off, the dog should be stopping at the bottom automatically without you pointing to the bottom or standing near the contact.
> 
> I think it's a good idea to mark a date on your calendar, say a year from now, and plan to enter a Novice trial. Setting a deadline, even if you ultimately push it back, is the best way to get yourself to get out and train nearly every day. Initially, your training sessions might involve a few minutes of weave and/or contact training then a short session of handling with 2 or 3 cones. Work on the handling separately, with cones, hoops or bars on the ground at first. You don't want your dog to have to think about handling and the mechanics of jumping at the same time. When the handling is smooth, slowly raise the jump height.
> 
> In the meantime, while you're working up to showing your own dog, volunteer at a few agility trials. It's the best way to see how an agility trial functions and you can check out everybody's set-up to figure out what kind of shade canopy, chair, crate, etc you might want to invest in before your first trial. You can also watch other handlers, in and out of the ring, without the stress of worrying about your own run.
> 
> Your year of preparation will fly by. Enjoy the training. Keep sessions short and fun, etc.


Thank you! I think that is a reasonable goal. I will definitely need to work with a trainer as I don't even know where to start really with the poles and I feel that luring him through them probably isn't the way to go. I also feel like I will start better with my next Golden and have much more clearly defined goals from the get go. 

I have a question. For Agility, there is qualifying scores, which get you towards a title right? So you run a clean round and get a Q. Is it also time based or is that just based on whether you're aiming for first place? 

We have other goals in mind, but I expect they will take a few years to do. Time is not my friend. 

For contact training at home, I have some space, but I do not think I have enough for all the contact obstacles, is there a way to practice without having every obstacle available?


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## Tagrenine

We’re confirmed for classes at OTCPBC! We’re entered in intermediate agility with sequences, jumps, weaves, and tunnels. I just found out that classes are indoors with AC and I’m excited 🤣


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## Tagrenine

I figured you guys would get a laugh out of this


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## PalouseDogs

Hope he's learning something! My boy gets very interested when I play hunt test videos.


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## PalouseDogs

Don't know if you've ever watched the NADAC stakes classes, where the handler has to stay in an outlined area and direct the dog from a distance. The technical nature of the Westminster courses and the speed of the handlers at Westminster is awesome, but the NADAC super stakes blow me away.


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## Tagrenine

PalouseDogs said:


> Don't know if you've ever watched the NADAC stakes classes, where the handler has to stay in an outlined area and direct the dog from a distance. The technical nature of the Westminster courses and the speed of the handlers at Westminster is awesome, but the NADAC super stakes blow me away.


I wish there was a "shock" reaction. But Border Collies were bred to work at incredible distances from their handlers...the reason I wanted BCs as a child was because I wanted to do agility badly. Watching them run reaffirms that wish. That dog and handler team are incredible. I get the same feeling watching the stock championships in Europe...they have to take direction from 400 yards out and manage to fetch the 5 sheep. Truly exceptional dog and handler skill.


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## diane0905

PalouseDogs said:


> Don't know if you've ever watched the NADAC stakes classes, where the handler has to stay in an outlined area and direct the dog from a distance. The technical nature of the Westminster courses and the speed of the handlers at Westminster is awesome, but the NADAC super stakes blow me away.


Wow.


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## cwag

PalouseDogs said:


> Don't know if you've ever watched the NADAC stakes classes, where the handler has to stay in an outlined area and direct the dog from a distance. The technical nature of the Westminster courses and the speed of the handlers at Westminster is awesome, but the NADAC super stakes blow me away.


Totally cool, thanks for sharing.


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## PalouseDogs

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you! I think that is a reasonable goal. I will definitely need to work with a trainer as I don't even know where to start really with the poles and I feel that luring him through them probably isn't the way to go. I also feel like I will start better with my next Golden and have much more clearly defined goals from the get go.
> 
> I have a question. For Agility, there is qualifying scores, which get you towards a title right? So you run a clean round and get a Q. Is it also time based or is that just based on whether you're aiming for first place?
> 
> We have other goals in mind, but I expect they will take a few years to do. Time is not my friend.
> 
> For contact training at home, I have some space, but I do not think I have enough for all the contact obstacles, is there a way to practice without having every obstacle available?


You are correct. Luring through the poles is definitely not the way to train them. I did 2x2s, working off these instructions to start:



http://www.kineticdog.com/Files/2%20x%202%20PDF.pdf



I found that, for my dog, when we got to straight poles, adding weave pole guides was tremendously helpful.

Whatever method you use, aim for independence and drive right from the start. If your dog will chase and retrieve, a toy toss as he comes out of the poles is better for getting a dog to drive through the weaves than a treat. It you use treats, try putting the treats in a little bag and tossing the bag, after teaching the dog that he gets a treat from the bag if he brings it to you.

I didn't take any videos of Pinyon in the early part of weave training. In these two videos, I'm working on commitment to stay in the weaves even if I veer away laterally or cross in front. This was about six months after we started working on weaves. The cone is used to control the entry angle. (You send around the cone before sending to the weaves; change the cone placement to change the entry angle.) In these videos, I have just started adding a jump (bars about 4"); in this case, the jump is after the weaves. I still have all the weave guides on the poles.










This video was just having fun with slow-motion, but, strangely, the slow-motion section didn't come through on the You-Tube upload. However, it shows the toy toss at the end, with him driving to the toy. He's a little slow heading towards the weaves. I am not sure if that is lack of confidence about finding the entrance or hoping I'll throw the toy before he goes into the weaves.






Since that video, I've been removing the guides, starting in the middle. I still had the end guides on in March. It's been all OB, with a spate of spring trials since then and I haven't been back to Agility.

Contacts are my project this summer. I will use the book Phenomenal Stopped Contacts in 30 days by Amanda Shyne, because my agility friend recommended it. It's available at Clean Run.

There is a thing called a contact trainer, which is kind of like a mini dog walk, but I haven't tried it. Clean run probably sells them or you might be able to find a used one or build your own. They have a fairly simple design, but you'll need a few power tools, like a circular saw, to cut boards.

You get titles by getting a certain number of qualifying scores. For a Novice Agility title, for example, you need 3 qualifying runs ("Qs") on a Novice level course. In Novice, you are allowed a certain number of "faults", such as one wrong course and one refusal. I don't know the exact number; it will be in the regs. Certain faults, such as a dropped bar or a missed contact, are automatic NQs at all levels in AKC. You have to finish the course within a time limit.

Now that I have a break in OB trials, you've inspired me to get back to working on agility. My number one priority is competition OB. I also do some hunt training. I'm a little ambiguous about adding something else. There are only so many hours in the day. If you do more than one dog sport, you usually have to decide which one will take priority and which one you may only dabble in.


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## mylissyk

Emily is doing beginner agility too! She needs a better handler, but we have fun. We've been taking agility lessons since she was 6 months old, the school has a puppy class. Then after they are a year old they can do beginner.


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## Tagrenine

PalouseDogs said:


> You are correct. Luring through the poles is definitely not the way to train them. I did 2x2s, working off these instructions to start:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.kineticdog.com/Files/2%20x%202%20PDF.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I found that, for my dog, when we got to straight poles, adding weave pole guides was tremendously helpful.
> 
> Whatever method you use, aim for independence and drive right from the start. If your dog will chase and retrieve, a toy toss as he comes out of the poles is better for getting a dog to drive through the weaves than a treat. It you use treats, try putting the treats in a little bag and tossing the bag, after teaching the dog that he gets a treat from the bag if he brings it to you.
> 
> I didn't take any videos of Pinyon in the early part of weave training. In these two videos, I'm working on commitment to stay in the weaves even if I veer away laterally or cross in front. This was about six months after we started working on weaves. The cone is used to control the entry angle. (You send around the cone before sending to the weaves; change the cone placement to change the entry angle.) In these videos, I have just started adding a jump (bars about 4"); in this case, the jump is after the weaves. I still have all the weave guides on the poles.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video was just having fun with slow-motion, but, strangely, the slow-motion section didn't come through on the You-Tube upload. However, it shows the toy toss at the end, with him driving to the toy. He's a little slow heading towards the weaves. I am not sure if that is lack of confidence about finding the entrance or hoping I'll throw the toy before he goes into the weaves.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since that video, I've been removing the guides, starting in the middle. I still had the end guides on in March. It's been all OB, with a spate of spring trials since then and I haven't been back to Agility.
> 
> Contacts are my project this summer. I will use the book Phenomenal Stopped Contacts in 30 days by Amanda Shyne, because my agility friend recommended it. It's available at Clean Run.
> 
> There is a thing called a contact trainer, which is kind of like a mini dog walk, but I haven't tried it. Clean run probably sells them or you might be able to find a used one or build your own. They have a fairly simple design, but you'll need a few power tools, like a circular saw, to cut boards.
> 
> You get titles by getting a certain number of qualifying scores. For a Novice Agility title, for example, you need 3 qualifying runs ("Qs") on a Novice level course. In Novice, you are allowed a certain number of "faults", such as one wrong course and one refusal. I don't know the exact number; it will be in the regs. Certain faults, such as a dropped bar or a missed contact, are automatic NQs at all levels in AKC. You have to finish the course within a time limit.
> 
> Now that I have a break in OB trials, you've inspired me to get back to working on agility. My number one priority is competition OB. I also do some hunt training. I'm a little ambiguous about adding something else. There are only so many hours in the day. If you do more than one dog sport, you usually have to decide which one will take priority and which one you may only dabble in.


This is so inspiring! Felix will definitely chase a toy. When I went to buy the guide wires, Clean Run had sold out of them. I was just going to try to train without the guide wires but seeing Pinyon here is making me second guess that, I hope they come back into stock soon!! And when I was watching WKC Agility yesterday, few dogs had stopped contacts. For a novice trainer and dog, would you recommend stopped vs running contacts? 

I'm hoping I can kind of utilize the above guide in the 12 set of poles but I feel I may need to order at least a pair or two of 2x2s.


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## Tagrenine

mylissyk said:


> Emily is doing beginner agility too! She needs a better handler, but we have fun. We've been taking agility lessons since she was 6 months old, the school has a puppy class. Then after they are a year old they can do beginner.


Emily looks amazing!! Especially her weaves!!! I can't wait to have that level of control!


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## pawsnpaca

For a novice I‘d definitely recommend stopped contacts. The teams you saw at WKC are experienced teams competing at a high level, and at that level every tenth of a second counts (which is why you saw so many running contacts). When you are just learning, your dog needs to understand hitting the contact zone (IMO stopped contacts make that more obvious for the dog) and you as the handler usually need a few extra seconds to get in position for the release to the next obstacle. Your dog is fast enough that for the moment I’d focus more on running clean than on running super fast.


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## pawsnpaca

Some more weave pole training videos for you.

This first one is my girl Moxie early in her training. She had started out with straight weaves with the plastic fencing guides on both sides. In this one, the guides are only on one side.





This is my boy Castor when he had graduated to a mix of fencing and wire guides.





And this is Cass a few months later when he’d progressed to just the wires on the ground.


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## ceegee

I haven't responded to your thread recently, but I've been reading it and you've been getting great advice! I'm so glad that you've found a good trainer!

Regarding weave poles, Duster's training was something of a revelation to me. Our previous agility dogs were all taught to weave using the channel method (separating the weaves to form a channel in the middle, and gradually bringing the two sets closer together). It was effective at teaching the dogs to drive through the obstacle, but not at reinforcing the weave entry. The trainer who helped me through the foundation with Duster suggested that we should try the 2 x 2 method (three separate sets of two poles; you start with just one gate, practise at different angles, then open up again, add a second set, etc.). I wasn't convinced but agreed to give it a try. And really, I was blown away by the results. When taught properly, what this method does is reinforce the weave entry from the very first lesson, and build drive. For us, it produced results very quickly. Duster was about 13 months old when we started training the weaves. After two weeks (probably a couple of hours of training in total), he was doing six weaves reliably, could find his entry from any angle, and was driving nicely through the obstacle. I kept him at six for a few more weeks, and it was a breeze to step up to 12 after that. No need for guide wires. To this day he has a great weave entry. All dogs are different, of course, but I would definitely at least try this method again if I got another agility dog. 

The other thing I recommend is training the weaves separately, until you at least have a good entry and a reliable six. Our club doesn't include weaves in its regular novice training classes, but offers them as a separate class instead. There's a lot of wisdom in that. It's easier to teach foundation handling with straightforward obstacles that the dog doesn't need to think about, and it's easier to teach weaves when it's all the dog has to think about.

Whatever method you use, luring is a big no-no. What you want is a dog that will do the all the obstacles, and especially the weaves, independently, with drive. Luring doesn't achieve either of those things. On the contrary, it makes the dog reliant on the handler, prevents drive, and encourages pop-outs.

For contacts, I agree with the others that stopped contacts are the way to go, especially for a first agility dog. The kind of running contacts you see at international championships need constant reinforcement. A fellow club member of mine was chosen for the Canadian world championship team, and he spent literally months re-training and reinforcing his running contact. For normal handlers like the rest of us, stopped contacts give us a chance to catch up to the dog or get into position on the course, and the performance criteria are much clearer for the dog. 

I also agree with the advice to step back from full courses and full height jumps and go back to low jumps and sequences of two, three or four obstacles. Short sequence drills help build confidence in the dog, and a confident dog will be able to perform more independently. In addition, you have a handler-focused dog, not an obstacle-focused dog, and short sequences are great at building concentration. They'll also help you to break his obsession with your hand, because you can reward the sequence as opposed to the obstacle. One thing you might try is to toss the reward on the ground as he completes the last obstacle in the sequence (if it's a jump), or when he's in 2-on, 2-off position (if it's a contact). This also will break his focus on your hand. Not least, the short sequences give you as a handler the chance to learn positioning and to generate some distance between you and the dog.

I loved the video someone posted of the distance exercise. Being old and mobility-challenged (artificial joints), having a dog that will work at a distance from me is essential. Duster and I continue to work hard on this type of exercise. I've attached a video of three-year-old Duster in his early competitive days, doing a distance ("gambler") class, where points were doubled if the exercises were done with the handler behind the orange line on the ground. As you can see, he wasn't particularly fast back then, but he was able to work independently and at some distance from me. He's a lot more confident now, and his speed has increased even though mine hasn't. He's a very handler-focused dog, like yours, and the distance was achieved using the methods described above: low jumps, lots of short-sequence drills, rewarding of sequences instead of obstacles, and teaching of strategic commands (flip, go on, etc.), so that he knows exactly what to do in every circumstance.

Agility is such a fun sport to train! You're going to have a blast.


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## Tagrenine

Thank you!! This is the method in the article above and I’m definitely going to try it. I just have to pick up the 2x2.

Duster looks so amazing in that video, thank you for sharing. It is goals! I feel much more encouraged with all the advice here and more confident going into our new class.


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## PalouseDogs

Duster's a beautiful dog. What's his registered name? Nice layering, BTW.

Like Christine, I am old and slow. (64, bad knees). I was thinking of selling my agility equipment a couple years ago when I started training obedience with someone equally mobility-challenged who does great at agility with her fabulous rocket of a border collie. So, I took a stab at it again with Pinyon, at first, not too seriously. I was a little surprised at how well he took to it. After my first agility dog (an athletic standard poodle who died young of an unusual autoimmune disease), I fooled around a little with dogs who were unsuited to agility (too slow, or too heavily built or too old). I had my athletic, super-fast poodle back in the early days of agility (the mid-1990s) when agility training techniques were new and evolving rapidly. 

I agree completely with everything Christine says. You can do a whole lot of training with short sequences in a small area. Here's an example of a 4-jump sequence: a 3-jump circle, then a choice of jumps (one in which the handler needs to pull the dog closer, the other that requires the dog move away and switch leads). You can't see it in the video, but I have a jump bar on the ground that I don't let myself cross. I'm making a few mistakes in this video. I am, for example, calling "jump" before every jump, which is unnecessary. The dog should learn to take whatever is in front of him unless given a cue to change directions. Pinyon is also a bit tentative, so I may have increased distance too fast. 







This time around, I am all about distance. I am not interested in those handling systems that require the handler be at just the right place at just the right time to cue the dog to wrap a stanchion with a minimum of wasted time. However, one thing you should be aware of is that there are many handling systems geared towards handlers who are younger and more athletic. If you find a good instructor (someone you know is good because you've seen them run and they have lots of titles), go with whatever system they are teaching. Don't try to mix systems that might have different cues. You can't really go wrong with distance, because you will need it, but you have more options if you can be close when you need to.


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## ceegee

Thank you. Duster - Tanbark's Leave 'Em In The Dust - is an amazing dog. His K9 data page is here:




__





Pedigree: ATChC Tanbark's Leave 'Em In The Dust






www.k9data.com





He is everything I asked for and more. He's an incredible partner and just a wonderful dog to live with. Quirky, funny, thoughtful, earnest. I call him my "unicorn". He's one of a kind. It's a small personal tragedy for us that COVID has taken away 18 months of our competitive career, at a time when he was at his peak. Competitions are still not allowed here, and will re-start progressively during the summer. But we are having fun reviewing our training and getting back to competition fitness. Our first post-COVID trial will be in early August.

I agree with Kelly about choosing a handling system and sticking with it. We've worked with the same coach for the last four years, on a handling system tailored to our needs as a team. I have a lot of club-mates who take all kinds of seminars with lots of different teachers and it's not necessarily beneficial. IMHO you get better results, and it's fairer for the dog, if you're consistent in your training.There is an increasing shift towards athletic handling, but it's not the be-all and end-all. Duster and I may not be as fast as some of the teams, but we do quite well in championship-type aggregate events and in events involving distance handling. The event in the video above is a "gamble" event, in which points are doubled for certain sequences if you can complete them with the handler behind a line 18' from the obstacles, and overall points are doubled if the end distance sequence is completed within a given time (usually 18 seconds). We finished fourth out of 50 dogs on that particular day, but we very often win this type of event with the highest scores overall. So you don't have to be border collie quick to be successful.


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## Tagrenine

PalouseDogs said:


> Duster's a beautiful dog. What's his registered name? Nice layering, BTW.
> 
> Like Christine, I am old and slow. (64, bad knees). I was thinking of selling my agility equipment a couple years ago when I started training obedience with someone equally mobility-challenged who does great at agility with her fabulous rocket of a border collie. So, I took a stab at it again with Pinyon, at first, not too seriously. I was a little surprised at how well he took to it. After my first agility dog (an athletic standard poodle who died young of an unusual autoimmune disease), I fooled around a little with dogs who were unsuited to agility (too slow, or too heavily built or too old). I had my athletic, super-fast poodle back in the early days of agility (the mid-1990s) when agility training techniques were new and evolving rapidly.
> 
> I agree completely with everything Christine says. You can do a whole lot of training with short sequences in a small area. Here's an example of a 4-jump sequence: a 3-jump circle, then a choice of jumps (one in which the handler needs to pull the dog closer, the other that requires the dog move away and switch leads). You can't see it in the video, but I have a jump bar on the ground that I don't let myself cross. I'm making a few mistakes in this video. I am, for example, calling "jump" before every jump, which is unnecessary. The dog should learn to take whatever is in front of him unless given a cue to change directions. Pinyon is also a bit tentative, so I may have increased distance too fast.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This time around, I am all about distance. I am not interested in those handling systems that require the handler be at just the right place at just the right time to cue the dog to wrap a stanchion with a minimum of wasted time. However, one thing you should be aware of is that there are many handling systems geared towards handlers who are younger and more athletic. If you find a good instructor (someone you know is good because you've seen them run and they have lots of titles), go with whatever system they are teaching. Don't try to mix systems that might have different cues. You can't really go wrong with distance, because you will need it, but you have more options if you can be close when you need to.


This is amazing! And I can't wait to be at this level. Did you find that as Pinyon was able to find his distances, he didn't clip bars or was he always careful? How did you teach the 2 on 2 off? Our trainer at Lucky Dog recommended using a target at the bottom of the obstacles. I can probably start that with the 2 on 2 off training obstacle. 

As far as finding a training system that works, would you recommend a private trainer or classes? I can probably do a private trainer once a month, but if how they train doesn't match with our local classes?


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## Tagrenine

Unfortunately I didn't get a video tonight but we had our first class at the other facility. We ran on the 2x2s with as little luring as possible but I definitely need to practice at home. It was technical and it reminded me of my weakness as an equestrian: course memorization. Each course had 18 obstacles but limited to jumps, weaves, and tunnels. Felix was actually fantastic but I definitely felt my novice handling. 

Felix was the fastest in the class but definitely had the most novice handler. Something I learned today was that I have little trust in him and my own skills and he suffers for it. In particular, I lose track of myself in the course and drop my hand. She said I need to imagine myself as an artist and my hand as a paintbrush, everything smooth. I think that will come with experience. She also mentioned that unfortunately he has a lot of speed as a beginner and that neither him nor I are ready for increased distances yet. Thankfully this course was very tight and he didn't get very far ahead of me. 

I tried to draw the course to the best of my ability. I think I'm fairly close, in the first one I'm missing a jump somewhere. We did several pinwheels and front crosses. 

Edit: another thing that I realize has been a consistent issue for Felix is jump sequences of 3 or more jumps. My stuff from Clean Run shipped so I will definitely be working on independence and consistency through three jumps.


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## pawsnpaca

Assuming you drew the courses correctly (and I did some mental adjustments for most likely placements and angles) those WERE pretty technical courses (likely much more complicated than you are likely to see in Novice competition!). I personally like to challenge myself and always be working a bit above my comfort zone, but definitely don't be discouraged if you felt a bit out of your depth! There is a well-known agility saying: "Great dog. Shame about the handler."  We've all been there... my boy Dover was an amazing dog and I learned SO much from rising to the challenge of trying to be the handler he deserved, but I know he could have gone a lot farther a lot faster with a more experienced handler.

What was your take on the class and instructor? Do you feel better about the new instructor's level of knowledge?

If your dog is fast then learning not only distance handling but also natural rear crosses will serve you well (since you'll likely be _behind _your dog during turns more often than you are in front of him). You can start this skill on the flat by teaching him a "turn away from me" behavior. I used "switch" as my cue for this. Here's a video of my early teaching of this with my puppy Moxie (I was doodling on a lot of different things... the "switch" practice is at around minute 1:00).


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## Tagrenine

Thank you Lisa! Sorry it took so long for me to reply, its been a busy week!

So far I do like this instructor and I'm excited for the next class. I think the next one will be outdoors barring poor weather. My weave poles and jumps just arrived in the mail yesterday, but I still need to get a 2x2. 

That switch is so clever and fluid! Right now I feel like a dump truck trying to finesse these tiny courses. It's so hard to keep an eye on where I'm going and on my dog. I will hopefully have a video for y'all next week of some improvement. I'm very excited to start working on the technical stuff at home and getting him to nail jump sequences of three (with me in front and behind!).


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## Tagrenine

Here is our video from tonight! Warning in advance, even though I mostly recorded just the course and tried to cut out the instruction, the video is still longer than 8 minutes. I was super impressed with how he tackled the 2x2s today. Ours still haven't gotten here  

These technical small courses require him to slow down and actually pay attention, but his jumping suffers when things aren't smooth. I'm hoping once we have better handling we can start speeding things up and getting a clean course. I have also started keeping the bait out of my guiding hand and ultimately I'm trying to remove the bait all together.


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## Tagrenine

Update! I have been so busy but we got some videos this week! We're going to take him back to the basics of jumping. The trainer says he's not engaging his hind legs enough, so we're going to do exercises where he NEEDS to.


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## ceegee

Nice progress! It's a good idea to go back to jumping basics. I watched your video in slow-mo, and when he knocks bars down, it's often because his head comes up when he looks at your hand for a reward. He doesn't always knock the bars with his rear legs; sometimes he just barrels through them because he's not thinking about what he's doing but focusing on the reward instead. When doing your jumping exercises, one suggestion I would make would be to toss the reward on the ground instead of rewarding from your hand. He's been used to luring and hand-dispensed rewards, and IMHO you might see some improvement when he understands that your hand is a source of information (on what to do), rather than a source of rewards.

But you're definitely making a huge amount of progress. In agility, it's the journey that's the most fun, and I'm so glad you're enjoying your journey!


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## Tagrenine

ceegee said:


> Nice progress! It's a good idea to go back to jumping basics. I watched your video in slow-mo, and when he knocks bars down, it's often because his head comes up when he looks at your hand for a reward. He doesn't always knock the bars with his rear legs; sometimes he just barrels through them because he's not thinking about what he's doing but focusing on the reward instead. When doing your jumping exercises, one suggestion I would make would be to toss the reward on the ground instead of rewarding from your hand. He's been used to luring and hand-dispensed rewards, and IMHO you might see some improvement when he understands that your hand is a source of information (on what to do), rather than a source of rewards.
> 
> But you're definitely making a huge amount of progress. In agility, it's the journey that's the most fun, and I'm so glad you're enjoying your journey!


Our 2x2s got here today, so we're finally going to be able to start the Kinetic Dog training method and hopefully we'll get strong weaves that he drives through.

I'm having fun and once he stops knocking poles, I'll be so happy 🤣 but he certainly enjoys himself.


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## Tagrenine

So today we target jumped again and went back to the beginning. We had the jumps set to 16in. Out of the 10 jumps we practiced, he knocked 8 of them with his front feet. He doesn't seem to care if he hits jumps because he gets rewarded anyway. How in the world do I correct that? We didn't have this issue when we started agility 🤔

Edit: I ordered Susan Salo's Foundation Jumping and Jumping Grid Workbook! Fingers crossed I can figure this out. I did not envision this being the problem we would have with agility.


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## ceegee

Use jump chutes: lines of seven or eight properly-spaced jumps. They should be very low: under 12" (our club uses 10"). The idea is to teach the dog to adjust his stride properly so that he takes off at the right place. Reward only a properly-completed line, i.e. with no knocked bars. He will soon understand that he is only rewarded when the bars stay up. Never do a jump chute with higher jumps.

Do exercises using a single jump, at 16". Position the dog close to the jump and have him jump over it, then reward on the ground if he clears it. Don't reward if he knocks the bar down. Put him in different positions - towards the left, towards the right, in the centre, etc. - so that he learns to clear the jump from different angles. It's important to use only one jump, so he learns that rewards only come for clean jumps. Once you're getting 100% success at 16" you can do the same thing at his regulation height.

Set up three-jump sequences at 16" and practise them. Only reward if he clears all three bars. If he knocks one down, he doesn't get a reward.

My personal recommendation would be to stop doing longer sequences until you've sorted this out. Longer sequences will only reinforce his impression that he gets rewards even when the bars come down. It's important to keep him in a context where he's only rewarded if the bars stay up.

Hope this helps!


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## Tagrenine

ceegee said:


> Use jump chutes: lines of seven or eight properly-spaced jumps. They should be very low: under 12" (our club uses 10"). The idea is to teach the dog to adjust his stride properly so that he takes off at the right place. Reward only a properly-completed line, i.e. with no knocked bars. He will soon understand that he is only rewarded when the bars stay up. Never do a jump chute with higher jumps.
> 
> Do exercises using a single jump, at 16". Position the dog close to the jump and have him jump over it, then reward on the ground if he clears it. Don't reward if he knocks the bar down. Put him in different positions - towards the left, towards the right, in the centre, etc. - so that he learns to clear the jump from different angles. It's important to use only one jump, so he learns that rewards only come for clean jumps. Once you're getting 100% success at 16" you can do the same thing at his regulation height.
> 
> Set up three-jump sequences at 16" and practise them. Only reward if he clears all three bars. If he knocks one down, he doesn't get a reward.
> 
> My personal recommendation would be to stop doing longer sequences until you've sorted this out. Longer sequences will only reinforce his impression that he gets rewards even when the bars come down. It's important to keep him in a context where he's only rewarded if the bars stay up.
> 
> Hope this helps!


Thank you!! It does! We only used one jump today. Right now I’m placing the target out and the treat on it, so he’s not looking at me for the reward. Should I be withholding the treat until he jumps clean? At what point do I progress to two or three jump sequences?

edit: I suppose I worry that if I start not rewarding for effort he’ll become disinterested or frustrated


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## ceegee

Yes, withhold the treat until he's jumped clean. He needs to learn that the reward is for jumping clean, and not just for jumping. You can do both the single-jump exercise and the three-jump sequence at the same time because they're both designed to reward clean jumping. If he consistently knocks bars in the sequence, step it back to two jumps, or stop it completely for a few days, and just do single jumps. Then try again. Withe the sequence, be generous with the rewards. Once he realizes what is being rewarded, and how well it pays, he should start being more careful.


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## Tagrenine

ceegee said:


> Yes, withhold the treat until he's jumped clean. He needs to learn that the reward is for jumping clean, and not just for jumping. You can do both the single-jump exercise and the three-jump sequence at the same time because they're both designed to reward clean jumping. If he consistently knocks bars in the sequence, step it back to two jumps, or stop it completely for a few days, and just do single jumps. Then try again. Withe the sequence, be generous with the rewards. Once he realizes what is being rewarded, and how well it pays, he should start being more careful.


Thank you so much!! I'm excited to try this. I'm confident this will correct our issue. I'm not sure why none of the instructors have recommended this. On a sadder note, our instructor for this class may not be continuing to teach due to a possible cancer diagnosis. The biopsy will be on the 23rd and after that we find out if we get to continue or not


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## PalouseDogs

I would separate the bar-knocking issue from the "path" issue. When you are training the path (i.e., handling) lay the bars on the ground or use hoops. If you try to teach him the path with the bars up and he takes the right path, but knocks a bar, you have a dilemma. You can reward him for taking the right path, and he might not only think it's okay to knock a bar, he might actually start thinking that's what you WANT him to do. If you correct (or withhold the reward) for knocking a bar, but he took the right path, he may conclude he took the wrong path, i.e., he misinterpreted your handling signals.

I had hoped you could find an instructor who would have you doing sequences instead of whole courses neither of you are ready for, but you can improve the situation by asking (telling?) the instructor you want to run the course, but only with the bars on the ground. I would also not do any sequence with weave poles until he can do the weave poles confidently and at a reasonable distance by themselves. 

You HAVE to stop leading him with your hand. Try this simple exercise at home. Set up 3 jumps (bars on the ground) in an arc. Lay a section of hose on the ground a couple of feet inside the jump arc, or wherever you feel you can start. Send him around the arc. Try not to say anything as he goes around, except for "Go" or "Jump" to release him to the first jump. No "Jump, Jump, Jump" or "Good" after each jump. Your motion should mirror his motion, but you will take a shorter path. When he goes over the third jump (bar on ground, so not really a jump), THROW!!!!!!! a toy in front of him. DO NOT!!!!! give him a treat directly from your hand. He MUST stop following your hand with his nose. 

Always do everything in agility from both directions before you advance, so make sure he can do it on the right and on the left.

When he can do that, looking ahead, move the hose a foot back.. Repeat. One technique is to get a can a spray paint and mark the distances on your grass in one-foot intervals. 

This exercise is not about getting you ready to do super stakes in NADAC, it is about getting you to believe you can guide him without leading him by the nose and getting him to look ahead and not at your hand. A friend of mine uses a plastic water bottle filled with treats. She throws the bottle at the end of a sequence, dog retrieves bottle and brings it to her and she unscrews the cap, shakes out a treat and gives it to him that way.

Work on the jumping separately. The Salo course will help with that.


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## Tagrenine

PalouseDogs said:


> I would separate the bar-knocking issue from the "path" issue. When you are training the path (i.e., handling) lay the bars on the ground or use hoops. If you try to teach him the path with the bars up and he takes the right path, but knocks a bar, you have a dilemma. You can reward him for taking the right path, and he might not only think it's okay to knock a bar, he might actually start thinking that's what you WANT him to do. If you correct (or withhold the reward) for knocking a bar, but he took the right path, he may conclude he took the wrong path, i.e., he misinterpreted your handling signals.
> 
> I had hoped you could find an instructor who would have you doing sequences instead of whole courses neither of you are ready for, but you can improve the situation by asking (telling?) the instructor you want to run the course, but only with the bars on the ground. I would also not do any sequence with weave poles until he can do the weave poles confidently and at a reasonable distance by themselves.
> 
> You HAVE to stop leading him with your hand. Try this simple exercise at home. Set up 3 jumps (bars on the ground) in an arc. Lay a section of hose on the ground a couple of feet inside the jump arc, or wherever you feel you can start. Send him around the arc. Try not to say anything as he goes around, except for "Go" or "Jump" to release him to the first jump. No "Jump, Jump, Jump" or "Good" after each jump. Your motion should mirror his motion, but you will take a shorter path. When he goes over the third jump (bar on ground, so not really a jump), THROW!!!!!!! a toy in front of him. DO NOT!!!!! give him a treat directly from your hand. He MUST stop following your hand with his nose.
> 
> Always do everything in agility from both directions before you advance, so make sure he can do it on the right and on the left.
> 
> When he can do that, looking ahead, move the hose a foot back.. Repeat. One technique is to get a can a spray paint and mark the distances on your grass in one-foot intervals.
> 
> This exercise is not about getting you ready to do super stakes in NADAC, it is about getting you to believe you can guide him without leading him by the nose and getting him to look ahead and not at your hand. A friend of mine uses a plastic water bottle filled with treats. She throws the bottle at the end of a sequence, dog retrieves bottle and brings it to her and she unscrews the cap, shakes out a treat and gives it to him that way.
> 
> Work on the jumping separately. The Salo course will help with that.


Thank you! This is another thing that I have been trying to do at home with his toys. I haven't done an arc but I do send him forward and toss the ball out without me moving. I get a lot of critique on my arm in class because I'm not confident enough to keep him from moving. I did ask her if we could use the 12inch course or leave the poles on the ground but that didn't happen and I don't remember why.

Maybe it will be better to stay away from classes so I can work on what I need to at home before throwing us into something we're not ready for.

edit: when sending him around the arc, should I still use my arm to guide him?


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## PalouseDogs

In the system I'm trying to get better at, your arm is used partly to indicate how far out or in you want the dog to go. Arm pulled in, dog moves close, arm way out, dog goes way out. The direction of your shoulders (plus arm) indicates the direction the dog should go. If the dog is moving, you should always be moving. If you stop, the dog will stop or slow down. For the arc exercise, you hold your arm partly up and mirror the dog's direction as you walk. I tried to do it correctly in a video I shot this evening. (Note that I am taking informal instructions from a friend. I don't claim to be doing it completely like I'm supposed to!)


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## pawsnpaca

I've been off line a few days so I'm late to the party! FWIW I agree with all the advice you've been given by Kelly and Christine! The one thing I would emphasize is that, in addition to getting the treats out of your hands, you really need to try a LOT less chatter! If you listen to the tone of your voice in the video, you sound a bit anxious ("OMG if I don't keep talking and praising I'll lose him!"). That will make him focus more on you and less at the job at hand (as well as possibly making HIM more anxious).

The practice set up Kelly showed in her video is a great one to try. Notice that the bars are on the ground, she is completely _silent _while working him (he's getting all his cues through body language), the ball is in her non-signaling hand (so not being used to lure him) and the reward is a thrown ball and verbal praise at the end of the sequence. If you use this set up, start fairly close to the jumps to increase his chances of being successful. As he gets "patterned" to the sequence, you can add in distance OR raise the bars a bit. If he knocks a bar then it's "Oh, too bad, so sad" and no ball toss. Try again and if he still doesn't get it clean, back up a step in the process. If you work him silently in the backyard in these small sequences you and your dog will both gain confidence that it's OK for you not to be talking to him all the time. Then you can save your verbal cues to times when your body language may need a little extra support (like if you want him to take the tunnel under the A-Frame instead of the A-Frame itself), or to _quietly _praise him when he makes a correct choice.

I noticed too that you are using the treat to lure him into position when you begin. FWIW I tend to do that too (not that it's a good thing!). BUT if you are going to continue to do that I would show him empty hands before you begin the run so he knows you no longer have treats in your hand. What is even better is to teach a hand touch - then you can use your (empty) hand to position him without the treat,


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## ArkansasGold

I have been following this thread for awhile and I'm so proud of your progress! I don't do agility, but when I teach jumping for Rally and Obedience the reward is always thrown from my non-signaling hand and I always start with the bar very low. For Rocket, I throw food. For Eevee, I throw a yarn ball or a bumper. Felix is to the point now that he should only be rewarded for doing it properly, so I would wait to throw the ball/food until his front feet have landed on the other side without touching a bar. 

My Rally teacher in Houston used to tell me to go in the ring with my head held high and with confidence and to be a _*leader*_. Every time I go in the ring like I'm the boss and Rocket is my assistant we have better scores than when I go in worried that he's going to do something silly (like greet the judge, run out of the ring, greet the steward, wander off for no reason, etc.). I don't chatter as much when I'm the CEO of Rally, Inc. than when Rocket thinks he's the CEO. LOL All of that to say that I agree with not chattering out of fear of losing him. If you lose him, just take a break and start over.


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## diane0905

Looks like you are having a lot of fun and working hard. I'm sure with all the good advice things will keep coming together. As you know, I'm newer at agility also. We've been using treats to reinforce two/on two/offs and at the end of a run, I use a treat or toy play. Logan is getting to where he prefers the toy play.

I'm thankful for all the confidence advice. I'm very guilty of feeling stressed at times because I'm worried about whether Logan is going to break off or not -- especially in obedience class. I also chatter way too much. I'll try to remember to exude confidence and leadership -- plus, duct tape my mouth.


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## diane0905

I know you didn't ask and I can feel bombarded at times because there are so many resources out there. Anyhoo, my instructor suggested this book and it came in yesterday. I have 2X2's and six poles and a few jumps, so I'm going to get going with the exercises. I balked at the price, but when I received the book I saw why -- it's a nice book with lots of graphs and photo illustrations. I think I saw 90+ exercises in the contents (too lazy to move away from my coffee at the moment.  )

Weaves


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## Tagrenine

Thank you all SO MUCH!! I'm sorry my replies have been slow, I've been so busy lately. Diane I appreciate that book!! I did get in trouble for chattering today. The agility instructor tried to run a course with him too and said "wow he is hard" after that. It was a fun class but I'm looking forward to just practicing with the gear I have at home. I'm thinking I'm going to need to order more jumps if I really want to practice jumping technique with him. 

My goal is to be able to Q in novice by March or April and our biggest hurdle will be my handling and his jumping. I REALLY struggle with front crosses. I do not know what my issue is but I seriously cannot grasp what I'm supposed to do and every single class we need to stop the course so she can show me 3+ times how to do it.


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## pawsnpaca

I feel your pain on front crosses, though my problem is more a lack of speed. I’m afraid I’m the Queen of the back cross! 😁 I’m ALWAYS behind my dog! That said, there are times when only a front cross will do. The good news is these are easy to practice at home. Set up a sequence and WALK it (no dog) multiple times. Pay attention to your footwork, what your hands are doing, and how to maintain eye contact with your (imaginary) dog. When you have some muscle memory doing it correctly at a walk, begin to add some speed. When you are feeling pretty confident that your mind and body knows what’s it doing, and you can run it smoothly at the speed you think you’ll need with your dog, THEN you can add in your dog.

One other thought… if even your instructor is finding your dog “hard” then I encourage you to pull back on doing these long sequences. I know they’re fun and “sexy” but they may be more than you and your boy are ready for right now. Better to have solid success (for both of you!) in short sequences (3-5 obstacles) than to be practicing sloppy performances (and desperately trying to keep your boy with you) on longer sequences. Master those foundational skills and shorter sequences and someday relatively soon you’ll find that you can magically put several sequences together and it will feel more like a dance with a partner than a struggle with a wild colt..


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## ceegee

Tagrenine said:


> My goal is to be able to Q in novice by March or April and our biggest hurdle will be my handling and his jumping. I REALLY struggle with front crosses. I do not know what my issue is but I seriously cannot grasp what I'm supposed to do and every single class we need to stop the course so she can show me 3+ times how to do it.


My daughter is an agility instructor, and she would tell you that she spends 5% of her time teaching dogs how to do stuff and 95% of her time teaching humans how to handle.

With the emphasis on speed and athletic handling these days, front crosses are taught less well than before (IMHO), but they remain a basic and important handling movement. Yes, you need to be in front of the dog to do them, but you don't have to be a speedy handler to use them well. The main thing to remember is that the purpose of a front cross is to change the dog's direction. You do this by changing your position in front of the dog, and switching him from one arm to the other. So if you're running with your dog on your left, guiding him with your left hand, the purpose of the cross is to transfer him to your right side and guide him with your right hand, by turning towards your dog. It's a coordination thing, best learned by practising without the dog. Holding a small object in your hand and transferring it to the other hand during your turn might help. Once you have your footwork and armwork down, you can add the dog and practise on a flat surface with no obstacles, then add the obstacles afterwards.

In the months following my total knee replacement, I used front crosses a lot to slow Duster down. I've placed a video below showing how I did that. The jumper course in question was meant to be run fast using blind and rear crosses, but my operation was still fairly recent and I couldn't do much more than trot gently at the time, so I did it with front crosses. You can see how tentative I am, protecting my knee!! But it worked and even in that state I was able to remain in front of Duster, who is a wonderful partner and slowed down to match my speed and read my cues. If you watch the middle section, you can see how I change my guiding arm while turning, so that Duster knows which way to go.

Hope it helps.


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## Tagrenine

Thank you guys! At home we've just been doing Susan Salo's foundation exercises (setpoint) and it reminds me of training a baby horse. She places a lot of emphases in these early exercises on target training with a preference for toys because she wants the dog to be task oriented and not handler oriented. Felix has made incredible progress and I think he's starting to get the idea. Tomorrow we're going to try setting up an arc like PalouseDogs suggested and doing the full arc. We're only doing half an arc right now to make sure he understands. She also stresses that the facilitator obstacle is not a jump but rather a tool to help the dog understand where to jump from. She also recommends constantly changing the jump height from the occasional competition height to 10 inches so the dog understands that he needs to pay attention. I will eventually start using just a vertical, but I think the oxer has helped. 

Once we move up to the full arc, we're going to really start working on laterality. Right now, she discourges a lot of cues from the handler, but later she recommends working on laterality when doing the full arc so you can be 10-15 away from the dog and not have an issue. He broke his stay twice when using treats, but was good with toys, so we're working on relying solely on toys. He is less confident going towards the right (my left?) and his confidence grew as we practiced more. 

Ceegee I aspire to have your handling technique! That looked so effortless and my brain cannot comprehend the physics behind the front cross  I always seem to the dog around instead of myself.

I've attached a video of some of the setpoint practice we've been doing.


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## Tagrenine

Quick update! The DVD has helped! Here is a short video of some low level grid work using a toy as a target. I'm working on sending him ahead too versus standing at the end, but he's jumping much better. For now the plan is to stick to working on jumps and weaves until those are solid.


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## pawsnpaca

Looking good! Kudos to you for being willing to back up a bit and work on foundations. I think it’s really going to pay off!


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## Tagrenine

Thank you!! This video is from this afternoon. I get worried drilling the jumps, so we’re only doing them sparingly. This is “equal distance grid with height”. The small jumps are 8 inches and the large ones are 16 inches. He’s really improving, but we still have a lot of work to do.


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## pawsnpaca

Nice. I like how he’s learning to collect himself and judging the jump heights so that he’s neither over jumping or knocking bars. It’s great that you are filming and can do slo-mo… it really helps for you to go back and assess what’s going on. Is he doing better in general with not knocking bars?

I assume you are following a book or video for these exercises? I think You said you were doing some Susan Salo, right? I assume she has set the space between the jumps? Just know those are very tight, which may be great while he’s learning collection and control, but thankfully when you get to complete courses or competition the jumps will be MUCH further apart.

Great work!


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## Tagrenine

pawsnpaca said:


> Nice. I like how he’s learning to collect himself and judging the jump heights so that he’s neither over jumping or knocking bars. It’s great that you are filming and can do slo-mo… it really helps for you to go back and assess what’s going on. Is he doing better in general with not knocking bars?
> 
> I assume you are following a book or video for these exercises? I think You said you were doing some Susan Salo, right? I assume she has set the space between the jumps? Just know those are very tight, which may be great while he’s learning collection and control, but thankfully when you get to complete courses or competition the jumps will be MUCH further apart.
> 
> Great work!


MUCH better but I don’t want to do much course work until he has learned to look ahead on a course and not at me. I did notice these were close and think I am going to set them another foot apart. When we were doing just 8 inches, 6 feet worked but with this higher height I think I need to make the spread 7 feet. She says 6-7 for large dogs so I guess it’s experimenting 🥲

Next week we’re going to practice a distance grid and teaching him how to adjust his strides. Overall somehow these exercises have made him much more careful and while I don’t really understand how, I’m happy with the result


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## Tagrenine

We really started foundation bend work the other day! My biggest errors are my own handling and my CHATTER. I simply cannot stop talking to him, but it distracts him and I need to trust him more.

Overall though I'm happy! He makes occasional errors but corrects himself within the arc and by the next arc. I even kept in the part where he went back through the pattern with the ball in his mouth and slobber flying everywhere for no reason. Salo encourages this sort of bend work once or twice a week and always ending on a straight line to stretch the muscles out. We do 2-3 bends one way, a straight line, 2 to 3 another way and then finish with a straight line. My real goal with this exercise is to build distance from the arc, but that'll come with time.


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## pawsnpaca

I love that he opted to do the jumps on his own with the ball in his mouth! 😁


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## diane0905

Looking good! I'm glad y'all are enjoying agility so much. He's a pretty dog.


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## Tagrenine

pawsnpaca said:


> I love that he opted to do the jumps on his own with the ball in his mouth! 😁


I was laughing so hard at him as he did it. He's a goofball that's for sure, but he sure does like to jump!



diane0905 said:


> Looking good! I'm glad y'all are enjoying agility so much. He's a pretty dog.


We love it! The days are hot now, so we have to keep our sessions pretty short. I think he's pretty but it all comes at a cost, he's full of himself  I'm so excited to start competing but i know we have a lot of work to do.


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## diane0905

Tagrenine said:


> I was laughing so hard at him as he did it. He's a goofball that's for sure, but he sure does like to jump!
> 
> 
> 
> We love it! The days are hot now, so we have to keep our sessions pretty short. I think he's pretty but it all comes at a cost, he's full of himself  I'm so excited to start competing but i know we have a lot of work to do.


We also have plenty of work to do. Logan has a high dose of confidence too. 😅 It’s hot as Hades here.


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## Tagrenine

Today was a fun day! We got a winged jump in and decided to practice stride regulation. This was an interesting exercise for him and I think I'm going to need to do smaller adjustments, especially if he's going to do several reps at once. The book calls fro 7 reps, starting at 15' out and moving out progressively a foot each rep until hitting 19' and then moving back down to 15'. As he got more exhausted, he started adding strides in at 19' and on the way back to 15' and I think its mostly that he's under conditioned and its very hot outside.

She recommends for dogs that add an extra stride to play around moving it only 6-10 inches and let them get comfortable adjusting within that range before moving further and I think that's how Felix and I will tackle this. Watching the slow motion videos, you can really see how big his stride has to get to cover the 18' gap and I could see that it was easier for him at 19' to add two. We also messed around with the height, moving between 14" and 20", but sticking mostly to 16". The regulator strides are set 6' apart and at 8".

We did have to do some problem solving today because he decided he no longer knew how to hold his position at the starting line, but we solved it quickly. Overall this was a good exercise and one I look forward to practicing with.






Felix could really do for some conditioning and I think we're going to have to start massaging and cooling him properly after these exercises because they are taxing.


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## pawsnpaca

He’s doing so much better now that you’re working these exercises! Love to see him driving forward and really thinking about what he’s doing. Nice work!


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## Tagrenine

pawsnpaca said:


> He’s doing so much better now that you’re working these exercises! Love to see him driving forward and really thinking about what he’s doing. Nice work!


Thank you! I really feel like he's starting to understand jumping versus just following my hand. We have a long ways to go and I don't want to add in any handler cues too early as we develop handler independence. For the most part, he could care less about me though as long as he gets that ball  we'll be doing a lot of different grid work exercises as long as they fit in the yard, because I feel like once we nail jumping and handling, we will really start improving on whole courses. He loves to jump though, I just have to remember that he's hardly two years old and we're both novices.


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## Tagrenine

We've started the weave training recommended here and WOW! He's nailing the entries with no issue. I'm surprised and will post video updates after we're doing more than sending him through in a clockface. This helped both him and myself understand weave entries but I didn't expect it to happen to quickly and smoothly.


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