# Training Collar - Prong?



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

It is fine to use when used properly. You should use a Sprenger brand pinch collar. It keeps pressure off the trachea. But if you just rely on it to deter your dog from pull and not do the training, you'll always need it.


----------



## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> It is fine to use when used properly. You should use a Sprenger brand pinch collar. It keeps pressure off the trachea. But if you just rely on it to deter your dog from pull and not do the training, you'll always need it.


Thanks Maggie's Voice. That is what I am hoping. That training with the collar and reinforcing the proper loose leash position will make it so that we can wean off of it. Maggie is very biddable, focused on me and treat motivated for the most part. I think the trainer is just worried about her hurting herself.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

JulesAK said:


> Thanks Maggie's Voice. That is what I am hoping. That training with the collar and reinforcing the proper loose leash position will make it so that we can wean off of it. Maggie is very biddable, focused on me and treat motivated for the most part. I think the trainer is just worried about her hurting herself.



It's actually very hard to hurt the dogs with a prong collar. You'd kinda have to be trying to. That said, it's not about force correcting with a prong collar but you use it to explain the desired behavior. It's tiny little corrections to nudge them into what you want. All you need to do is pull to the side when they walk in front of you to redirect. Once they get back in line or a reaction to the correct, it's instant slack in the line. Its like a head collar in that respect, any tension is correction and slack in the leash is expressing good and expected behavior. It's not really about zipping it quickly or with any real force.


I wouldn't worry, It sounds like Maggie is responding perfectly to it the way she should be.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Just me but would never put a prong collar on a 6 month old golden puppy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using a prong for training ... large, adult dogs that have had no training yes, puppies? no.

If you start using force to teach now you will need to up the pressure as all you have taught the puppy is to avoid the discomfort. Just me but want my pups to make the choice to do the exercise. If you aren't having fun with your puppy doing any exercise there is room for improvement as a handler. Once the dog knows the exercise or command and doesn't comply then a correction / prong is there to enforce. 

As a 6 month old pup he/she clearly doesn't understand your expectations and is choosing to go his own way. Start over and teach not control. Make staying with you the most fun place to be. Lots of treats, small corrections when they walk away from you with positive treats when they stay close. Staying with you is part of learning how to be a team. If you start butting heads at 6 months you are always going to have a test of wills and no one wins. 

If you don't establish a partnership at this age ... well as soon as you take that leash off for off leash heel your pup will not stay with you as the thing that is causing the pain has been removed. FWIW I don't even use a leash to train the basics... my pups think training is a game we play together and enjoy how happy it makes me to do them correctly.


----------



## mp2005 (Jul 17, 2018)

I have had a great experience with the gentle leader (https://www.petsafe.net/gentleleader). It took a week or two for my dog (6.5 months) to get used to it (lots of pawing at his face, lying down in refusal to walk...), but with consistent use, it has really transformed his walking on a leash! I use treats and such as we walk to reinforce the good behavior and am hoping to wean off the gentle leader at some point. The idea of a prong collar made me a bit uncomfortable, and this has been a great alternative for me.


----------



## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

puddles everywhere said:


> Just me but would never put a prong collar on a 6 month old golden puppy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using a prong for training ... large, adult dogs that have had no training yes, puppies? no.
> 
> If you start using force to teach now you will need to up the pressure as all you have taught the puppy is to avoid the discomfort. Just me but want my pups to make the choice to do the exercise. If you aren't having fun with your puppy doing any exercise there is room for improvement as a handler. Once the dog knows the exercise or command and doesn't comply then a correction / prong is there to enforce.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments Puddles. Maggie is very easy to work with and wants to please. She does well with treats unless she wants to chase a leaf or wants to go to a person she sees. That is when she pulls with force and starts gagging. Any suggestions for redirecting her back to me at those times? Treats are not enough for her. I change directions and try to distract. I know a lot of it is just training and age and we work every day. I have no doubt she will get there. I just don't want her hurting herself.

Jules


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I prefer the use of a gentle leader then a prong collar but not everyone wants to take the time to get the dog acclimated to it. People also think is it a muzzle for a dog and that the dogs aren't friendly. But if you get your dog acclimated (usually a couple days if fitted properly) then they work wonderfully. The thing is, it's still a correction type thing but because people don't see the prongs they feel better about it. Most people that don't like prong collars don't really understand the point of them (no pun intended lol). They don't poke the skin, they fold away and pinch the skin. This simulates how the mom would pinch the neck and pull down to correct their pups. This allows the pups to realize it's a correction and not punishment. It's never to be used to pop or hit hard on it. The gentle leader just puts pressure on the muzzle area so the dog corrects themselves to release the pressure. The pinch collar basically does the same thing but around the neck not the muzzle. That how a prong or pinch collar (the correct name of the collar) should be used.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

JulesAK said:


> She does well with treats unless she wants to chase a leaf or wants to go to a person she sees. That is when she pulls with force and starts gagging. Any suggestions for redirecting her back to me at those times? Treats are not enough for her. I change directions and try to distract. I know a lot of it is just training and age and we work every day. I have no doubt she will get there. I just don't want her hurting herself.
> 
> Jules



I recommend teaching the "Look" or "Look at Me" command. You work at distance and then get closer and closer to distractions until your dog will look at you with distracts close by. You have to teach your dog to be able to focus on you. The training class you took should have shown you how to teach this and told you to work in it constantly. With either a gentle leader or pinch collar if there are times you can't get the focus on you, it's just a tug tug. Remember, any time you tell them a command you MUST make them do it or you turn commands into suggestions. if they aren't giving you their focus, then walk away until you're at a distance that they will give you you the focus and then reward. There is a very easy training method on YouTube from a guy named Zak George on training the look at me command. He does all positive reinforcement training.


----------



## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> I recommend teaching the "Look" or "Look at Me" command. You work at distance and then get closer and closer to distractions until your dog will look at you with distracts close by. You have to teach your dog to be able to focus on you. The training class you took should have shown you how to teach this and told you to work in it constantly. With either a gentle leader or pinch collar if there are times you can't get the focus on you, it's just a tug tug. Remember, any time you tell them a command you MUST make them do it or you turn commands into suggestions. if they aren't giving you their focus, then walk away until you're at a distance that they will give you you the focus and then reward. There is a very easy training method on YouTube from a guy named Zak George on training the look at me command. He does all positive reinforcement training.


Thanks Maggie's Voice. We are on the right track then because that is what we are working on for our homework  She is doing great at it. Will have to test it out with distractions after a while. She responds really good even with my other dogs in the mix. 

Jules


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The prong collar is a solid training tool that works very well. Be aware that it is a training tool and should not be worn as a 24/7 collar.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Maybe I misunderstood your original question. I was thinking you were in a training class... I'm not sure a class will allow you to use a gentle leader as the goal is to train the puppy not to pull, not to prevent the pulling.

As far as treats not working, use better treats  And remember this is a 6 month old puppy that has only been in your care for 2 months. Lots of new & wonderful things in a puppies life. They have a very short attention span, some are better than others but have patience and be consistent with your training. 

When I have a very distracted puppy I use boiled chicken (tiny, tiny pieces) and only take a step or two then reward while we are walking those two steps. I also reward when they stay sitting beside me so they start to learn where heel is before you take a step. I've also used boiled liver or tiny pieces of hot dogs.. some pups prefer beef to chicken. 

Truth is at this age I'm still using kibble and start this training in the house without distractions. I also don't train more than 5 minutes at a time. As soon as I get a couple of steps and a sit I tell them ok to end the session, get in front of them and toss a rope toy and begin a game of tug. You have to let them win, funny how when you let them win they return to continue the play. 

After you play a few minutes you bring out the treats and work a little more but never do this for more than about 5 min. Then we toss a treat and ask them to get it, when they look at you for more give a treat. Anytime they begin to walk away call their name, clap your hands or run the other way or backwards and as soon as they take the 1st step toward you say YES and give a treat. This helps with recall as well as teaching them to focus on you. Try and keep them engaged for about 5 minutes give a hug and end the session. This entire process shouldn't last more than 15 minutes and sometimes you have to work up to doing all this. You want to end before they totally check out mentally. Homework is supposed to be fun so mix it up and enjoy.


----------



## brocksmom (Feb 17, 2019)

Hi Jules, Brock is my 4th golden & until Barley, my 3rd, I resigned myself to the constant pulling. Then I saw Cesar Millan recommend using a slip lead pulled up right up behind the ears & Voila!-no more pulling! I use a Mendota leather slip lead I got from Amazon. Just remember to keep the collar up right against the ears. One light pull is all that's needed for correction.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Gentle Leaders are the worst. They are very painful and put all of a dog’s weight on their nose. They are not effective long term. They are toted as positive, but they are NOT positive. You can find multiple articles by actual balanced trainers explaining why they are awful and do not produce the actual desired behavior. 

I am split between recommending the use of the prong collar and recommending that you physically correct her when she pulls really hard. My dog used to pull like that and I was taught how to properly correct him by grabbing his collar and physically pulling him back into proper position with a big loud “no” then asking for a sit and rewarding the good behavior. Right now, there is no communication between you and your dog that tells her what you don’t want. This type of correction won’t hurt her, but it may look rough. It only takes a few of those before the lightbulb comes on “Oh you mean I should not pull so hard I choke myself and nearly knock you over and/or dislocate your shoulder! Ok cool. Got it.” You have to be quick and prepared to make the correction and you can continue with a buckle collar in this situation. If you decide to try the correction, you must never pull on the leash. Always grab the collar at the back of the neck and pull the dog back in position by lifting up and back. It will startle her, but it won't hurt. It kinda snaps them out of whatever they were doing and puts the attention back on you.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Maegan... What you mention is from misusing a gentle leader. That is not the way you use a gentle leader. It should never cause pain. The point off a gentle leader is pressure is correction and slack in the leash is correct behavior. You should only ever need the slightest pressure for positining the dog and it's instant pressure and then slack. Just hold your ground and the dog corrects themselves 99% of the time. The instant they step back there's slack in the leash. If they are walking faster then you it's slight tension, then instant slack. The dog should never ever have pain or need pain to respond to the gentle leader.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Maegan... What you mention is from misusing a gentle leader. That is not the way you use a gentle leader. It should never cause pain. The point off a gentle leader is pressure is correction and slack in the leash is correct behavior. You should only ever need the slightest pressure for positining the dog and it's instant pressure and then slack. Just hold your ground and the dog corrects themselves 99% of the time. The instant they step back there's slack in the leash. If they are walking faster then you it's slight tension, then instant slack. The dog should never ever have pain or need pain to respond to the gentle leader.


I disagree. Every balanced, experienced trainer that I've worked with is against them and will not recommend them. If they have worked for you then, I am glad.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Definitely agree to disagree  

Not just for me, I've trained at least 20 dogs with it and have seen numerous other trainers use it without anything you've described. 

It also works amazingly well to get a rambunctious puppy or dog to calm down just having it on as they can see it on their muzzle. It makes them take a step back and is great to get a dog that likes to pull or run up to people to great them. Makes them much easier to sit and stay and wait to be greeted. Perfect for starting the therapy and service dog training. No correction needed the dog is calmer naturally.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I’m not a fan of gentle leaders or those harnesses that connect in the front of the chest or head harnesses. I think they are a form of avoidance and lots of dogs never seem to move past it.

A dog needs balance. They need to know there are consequences if they pull. Consequences like, You pull, I stop, I reel you back to my side, I make you sit, then when you are settled, we will try again. This can take awhile to get anywhere. Patience is a virtue. Lots and lots of treats. Personally I try to have my dogs off leash as much as possible. But I live in a place I can get away with it. You have to start in places where there is a lot of control. Like your yard and then gradually increase the distractions. Make sure to talk to your dog. Don’t be rigid. Take one step, then reward if they stay by your side. Just work on one step for awhile. 

Look on YouTube for Janice Gunn at TNT Kennels and Connie Cleveland at Dog Trainers Workshop.

Also if you get up to Anchorage, sometimes we have trainers come up in the winter for 2 day seminars. It might be a good excuse to head up here, get some training in and do a little shopping. What Alyeska Canine Trainers facebook page for updates on trainers they are bringing in. Alaska Airlines is $100 each way to fly your dog, and they do a great job.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Something to keep in mind is there are no miracles in dog training. 

A lot of people like "gentle" leaders because it's in the name. You can walk a dog wearing one using just your pinky. The reason why is the strap around the muzzle exerts pressure around the nose where the dogs have a ton of nerves. The dogs are more sensitive in that area than they are around their necks. 

Retrievers are bred to have strong necks (because they are supposed to carry heavy birds). For this reason they are a lot to handle on leash if not trained to be soft/responsive to subtle leash corrections. 

So prongs... have been a go to for a lot of trainers. Because they allow for control and responsiveness with some pretty strong dogs. 

One of my teachers uses prongs with her flatcoats when walking them from one building to the other. She is not one of those trainers out there who consider prongs to be a mandatory obedience training tool and I've never heard her tell any students to put a prong on their dogs. But she uses them with her somewhat boisterous dogs. 

All of that said - people are putting prongs on their dogs and not learning how or why they work. 

The idea behind prongs is the tool replicates the jaw of an alpha dog pinning an offending dog. This is why back in the 90's, these tools were primarily used for very dominant and macho type breeds. It was supposed to give a trainer an upper hand on a lot of dog. 

I'm not sure how that all translated to every trainer recommending people use prongs, but would gather it had something to do with people no longer using leash corrections and or trainers getting up in age and wanting to have really powerful dogs - but wanting control. 

Either way, there's people who put prongs on their dogs and maintain lightness or softness on the leash. The idea is that the dog will not feel the prongs digging in unless being corrected. And a correction is a finger squeeze. 

With everyone putting prongs on dogs and pushing the use of prongs, you've had people misunderstanding how the tool works, how it is put on, why it works, and how to train a dog with a prong collar. 

This has led to injuries and or collar failure (dogs pulling so hard they break the collars). Same thing as choke chains which were the hot tool for everyone prior to prongs. 

Choke chains got a bad reputation because people would put them on backwards and or put the dogs outside on a tieout wearing a choke chain. 

People if taught well from the start - would put the choke chains on correctly and then keep them on the dead link unless actively training. This means that if the dog pulls while wearing the choke chain, it will not choke the dog. 

Choke chains are supposed to be fitted (only so big as to permit the the owner to slide them on and off over the dog's head). And when actively training a dog with a choke chain, it should be placed high up under the jaw. 

Note, I do put loose chains on my dogs for obedience, but I also do not require a correction for them beyond chain rattling. The chain never had to tighten around the neck - except conformation which is a different beast altogether. 

Anyway. If the instructor is teaching you how to train your dog with a prong and the dog only wears the prong when working - that's fine. Just don't get too set on using prongs all the time when training. The reason why I say that is you can not have a prong on your dog on a trial site. So if you have that crutch, you are going to be very stressed when trying to walk your dog around a crowded show site, even if you do not intend to use in the ring.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Alaska7133 said:


> I’m not a fan of gentle leaders or those harnesses that connect in the front of the chest or head harnesses. I think they are a form of avoidance and lots of dogs never seem to move past it.
> 
> A dog needs balance. They need to know there are consequences if they pull. Consequences like, You pull, I stop, I reel you back to my side, I make you sit, then when you are settled, we will try again. This can take awhile to get anywhere. Patience is a virtue. Lots and lots of treats. Personally I try to have my dogs off leash as much as possible. But I live in a place I can get away with it. You have to start in places where there is a lot of control. Like your yard and then gradually increase the distractions. Make sure to talk to your dog. Don’t be rigid. Take one step, then reward if they stay by your side. Just work on one step for awhile.
> 
> ...


I agree totally about the ez walk harnesses out any that clip to the front of the chest area. Those are useless for the majority of dogs. I've seen to many dogs pull, create space at the shoulders and then use that space to just step out of the harness. People just put them in and know nothing of what to do with them and don't do any good.


----------



## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I'm actually going to suggest something completely different. If you have a fenced backyard (a long hallway in your home is an even better place to start), take your dog out back and get rid of the leash. Get some high value treats and get to work teaching her to walk next to you. It's going to force you to figure out real quick how to get your dog to pay attention to *you*. My preference is to teach with no collars and leashes, then move to a collar and leash when we move out of a closed area. The dog is already used to watching and listening, and any physical correction you use will get the dog's attention because you haven't overused it.


Edit: You will have to be very quick to praise/reward the instant your dog is in position, working, and paying attention to you. As Puddles mentioned, get two or three good steps, release, then work your way to more steps/longer distances.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

People, please remember that the OP is not training your puppy. He/she is training their pup along with all of the quirks it has learned along the way. This dog has some unwanted behaviors that it has already learned that have been allowed to go on and be reinforced. That is not the same thing as starting out with an 8 week old puppy. 

This pup is 6+ months old, probably a little better than fifty pounds, is unruly and is rapidly becoming difficult to handle. The pinch collar is very good choice at this time for the owner to get the dog under control and get its attention. 

To make progress with the dog the owner will have to.....

1. Stop the undesired learned behavior.
2. Get the dogs full focused attention.
3. Teach the new behavior desired.
4. Reward the desired behavior when it is performed.
5. Repeat the desired behavior and reward until consistency is obtained. 

All of the steps have to be completed to make meaningful progress. You can't skip any, or you'll fail and have to start again.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Agreed Swampcollie... I didn't think people were under the impression you start with this tool, if they were that wasn't the intent from the beginning. These aren't for training your puppy but for helping correct unwanted learned behavior that needs to be corrected and normal training isn't getting through to them.


----------



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

IF you're interested, and a perfect heel isn't your end goal, just a dog who walks nicely on leash, you might be interested in the upcoming webinar by Denise Fenzi on May 23rd. This is the third time she's having this particular webinar, it has sold out each time before. If you can't be on LIVE, you can still sign up for it and have access to the recording for a year. I've signed up for several of the webinars and was not able to watch and participate live, but love being able to view it at my leisure. 

This link lists all her school's upcoming webinars. The one I'm referencing is The Fenzi Method: Cutting Corners for Loose Leash Walking - https://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/self-study/webinars


----------



## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Swampcollie said:


> People, please remember that the OP is not training your puppy. He/she is training their pup along with all of the quirks it has learned along the way. This dog has some unwanted behaviors that it has already learned that have been allowed to go on and be reinforced. That is not the same thing as starting out with an 8 week old puppy.
> 
> This pup is 6+ months old, probably a little better than fifty pounds, is unruly and is rapidly becoming difficult to handle. The pinch collar is very good choice at this time for the owner to get the dog under control and get its attention.
> 
> ...



I have nothing against prong collars. I have used them and think they are an effective tool. I agree that it needs to be used in training class, to correct unwanted behavior and to keep the dog under control. However, I don't see any reason not to attempt to try an alternative method (in a location with minimal distractions) that teaches the handler to figure out how to get the dog's attention without a the prong collar, as well as get the dog to learn that paying attention can equal reward instead of correction. If both sides of the equation aren't utilized, you either get a dog that never learns the behavior and/or a dog that is always on the prong collar because the handler hasn't learned how not to rely on it. --- That may be what your 1-5 are implying? I was offering a method of teaching the desired behavior. I was not implying that the prong collar is not needed at all.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Guess I should have said what I'd do if in the same position - and what I DID do when my pup was 6 months old and SO EXCITED ABOUT EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING in group classes....

I arrived early. I let my dog be excited and social for 30+ minutes before asking anything from him. 

I only used a buckle collar. This is because a lot of the thicker muscle did not fill in until my dog was closer to 8 months. It was also because I had a very responsive and soft on the lead dog. <= The training that Usually Lurking describes is what I did to get that. Well that and remember treats are not the only reward for good behavior. A lot of people out there get hung up on giving treats and GOOD LUCK in problem solving if you have a dog like my Bertie or my novice A dog.  Novice A dog would not eat anything in public. He would spit everything out. I think nervous stomach. Bertie was not as extreme, but yes - he was not overly food motivated. He still isn't. 

In the training ring - I train in conditions where I know he will be successful.

I get that some places might not give you any options, but if you have the ability to steer off as far away from other dogs as possible while working your dog - that's best. 

Give your dog a big enough bubble to help them learn to work with distraction. As they are successful, you can move closer to other teams when working. 

In the first post - you said the prong was successful and as I said before - if you have a good trainer guiding you and teaching you how to work with your dog and this is a temporary stage and you'll be getting back to using a collar that you can do CGC tests, and whatever beyond in.... go for it.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I can't tell you how many dogs I "rehabilitated" at the pet hotel (at owners' request) in just a couple of days with a prong collar. They quickly went from bratty and unruly on leash to calm, pleasant to walk dogs.
People were always thrilled. Prong collars aren't cruel, not walking your dog because you can't control him/ her is cruel.
It's just another training tool, and a very effective one if (big if!) used correctly.
Even had the owners of a particularly obnoxious lab send me flowers a week later!
That said, Tito has never worn a prong collar. He was born an old soul, and never needed one. My other dogs both did.
They got so excited when they heard the jingle of the prong collar coming out of the closet. It meant walkies and fun times were coming up!


----------



## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

mp2005 said:


> I have had a great experience with the gentle leader (https://www.petsafe.net/gentleleader). It took a week or two for my dog (6.5 months) to get used to it (lots of pawing at his face, lying down in refusal to walk...), but with consistent use, it has really transformed his walking on a leash! I use treats and such as we walk to reinforce the good behavior and am hoping to wean off the gentle leader at some point. The idea of a prong collar made me a bit uncomfortable, and this has been a great alternative for me.


I find this interesting. The vast majority of people, including the OP, say that their dog has zero negative reaction to the prong collar. They don't mind it at all. Whereas most people who try a head halter like the gentle leader report their dog HATES it at first, is miserable, and has to be conditioned to tolerate it with lots of treats, etc. And yet people continue to feel that the gentle leader is humane and kinder, and the prong collar is less human, more harsh, etc. 

I have to wonder why, given it seems very clear that dogs have the opposite opinion. If the dogs like the prong collar more, why do humans think the gentle leader is nicer?


----------



## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

puddles everywhere said:


> Just me but would never put a prong collar on a 6 month old golden puppy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using a prong for training ... large, adult dogs that have had no training yes, puppies? no.
> 
> If you start using force to teach now you will need to up the pressure as all you have taught the puppy is to avoid the discomfort. Just me but want my pups to make the choice to do the exercise. .


A prong can be used as communication, not force. It should be loose, and tiny movements used to communicate with the dog. Treats/praise/toy for yes, small amount of pressure on the leash for no. 

For whatever reason, the sensation of the prong makes sense to the dog in a way that a regular collar doesn't. Generally they look up at you as if to say, "oh! Don't do that? Why didn't you say so before?!"

So no harsh corrections at this stage, just tiny two finger movements to teach pressure on/off. 

As for wanting the puppy to choose...well some choose what you don't want, lol. If the choice is "walk nicely on lead and get treats/praise" or "pull like a maniac and not get treats/toys" some will still choose to pull. Now, changes of direction and other engagement activities help with this, but a prong can speed up the process a bit by providing a "no" to go along with the "yes". And save the dog's trachea in the meantime.


----------



## mp2005 (Jul 17, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> I find this interesting. The vast majority of people, including the OP, say that their dog has zero negative reaction to the prong collar. They don't mind it at all. Whereas most people who try a head halter like the gentle leader report their dog HATES it at first, is miserable, and has to be conditioned to tolerate it with lots of treats, etc. And yet people continue to feel that the gentle leader is humane and kinder, and the prong collar is less human, more harsh, etc.
> 
> I have to wonder why, given it seems very clear that dogs have the opposite opinion. If the dogs like the prong collar more, why do humans think the gentle leader is nicer?


My dog didn't like a regular leash, either, when I first put him on one-- so I didn't read his reaction to the gentle leader as much different. But, interesting to hear these different perspectives.


----------



## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

mp2005 said:


> My dog didn't like a regular leash, either, when I first put him on one-- so I didn't read his reaction to the gentle leader as much different. But, interesting to hear these different perspectives.


Gotcha. So is it fair to say you would have expected the dog to dislike the prong as well? I'm truly asking, as I'm honestly confused by how many people seem to prefer the gentle leader over the prong, when pretty much every dog I've tried both on has preferred the prong.


----------



## jdavisryan (Jan 28, 2018)

Chiming in here with our experience with the prong. We put Woody in a prong collar around 7 months at the recommendation of our trainer. We trained on loose leash walking with a flat buckle collar and positive reinforcement since we brought him home, and 90% of he time he was perfect. The other 10% of the time, when he was super excited to see another dog, or the 6 little girls that live next door, or if he knew he was going for a ride in the car, he would practically dislocate my shoulder. I'm just not as exciting as any of those things. What I love about the prong is it's self-correcting. All I need to do is brace and stop, and he corrects himself by pulling. He doesn't like the sensation, turns back to me, and gets praise, a treat, and the opportunity to do it correctly and get where he wants to go. We use the prong about half the time now and he rarely pulls. He sits nicely when it's time to put it on so I don't think he has any negative association with it. I think it's so much kinder than a dozen less effective correction with another type of collar.


----------



## mp2005 (Jul 17, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> \is it fair to say you would have expected the dog to dislike the prong as well


Yes, he is a headstrong puppy, so I would probably have expected him to dislike/protest against anything that prevents him from doing exactly what he wants


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And consciously or not, you just hit on the entire "secret" to training leash manners.
It is THE DOG'S RESPONSIBILITY, not yours, to make sure he walks quietly and calmly. With a self-correcting tool, they quickly realize it and behave so much better. 
Edit to add...when you are rehabilitating a dog who has already solidified horrendous leash manners, you take it a step further. You don't just stop and brace yourself. As soon as you catch the dog not paying attention to you, you abruptly turn and briskly walk in a different direction. They quickly learn to pay attention to where you are and where you are heading.
Of course, as soon as they have consistently demonstrated that they "get it", you can allow them a lot more leeway.





jdavisryan said:


> Chiming in here with our experience with the prong. We put Woody in a prong collar around 7 months at the recommendation of our trainer. We trained on loose leash walking with a flat buckle collar and positive reinforcement since we brought him home, and 90% of he time he was perfect. The other 10% of the time, when he was super excited to see another dog, or the 6 little girls that live next door, or if he knew he was going for a ride in the car, he would practically dislocate my shoulder. I'm just not as exciting as any of those things. What I love about the prong is it's self-correcting. All I need to do is brace and stop, and he corrects himself by pulling. He doesn't like the sensation, turns back to me, and gets praise, a treat, and the opportunity to do it correctly and get where he wants to go. We use the prong about half the time now and he rarely pulls. He sits nicely when it's time to put it on so I don't think he has any negative association with it. I think it's so much kinder than a dozen less effective correction with another type of collar.


----------



## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

This has been an excellent thread for me and the conversation is wonderful. I love hearing how different things have worked and there are so many tools I can try. I think the key for me will be to see what Maggie responds to in a positive way and keeps her happy little personality  I want things to be enjoyable for both of us while keeping her from harm.
I take her to an area where I can have her off leash and she is wonderful. She is doing great on her recalls and stops and checks in with me all along the walk. Thanks again for all the replies. So much helpful information!

Jules


----------



## JulesAK (Jun 6, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> I’m not a fan of gentle leaders or those harnesses that connect in the front of the chest or head harnesses. I think they are a form of avoidance and lots of dogs never seem to move past it.
> 
> A dog needs balance. They need to know there are consequences if they pull. Consequences like, You pull, I stop, I reel you back to my side, I make you sit, then when you are settled, we will try again. This can take awhile to get anywhere. Patience is a virtue. Lots and lots of treats. Personally I try to have my dogs off leash as much as possible. But I live in a place I can get away with it. You have to start in places where there is a lot of control. Like your yard and then gradually increase the distractions. Make sure to talk to your dog. Don’t be rigid. Take one step, then reward if they stay by your side. Just work on one step for awhile.
> 
> ...


Stacey, I would love to bring Maggie up to Anchorage for a class. Hopefully I can make that work someday.

Jules


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

puddles everywhere


"Just me but would never put a prong collar on a 6 month old golden puppy. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against using a prong for training ... large, adult dogs that have had no training yes, puppies? no."


I generally agree but there is a nice plastic pinch type collar with blunted ends that I have used on puppies at 6 months. Starmark Training collar. I won't use a choke collar ever again, but that is me.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

gdgli that's good to know, thanks for sharing. Prong collars are a very effective training tool when used correctly. I've been fortunate to never need one if I've started training with a young puppy to adult. But have certainly used them with many adult, out of control dogs that no one took the time to work with before.

Without being physically present and watching how these two work together, all any of us on the forum can do is share an opinion on what works for them as a trainer and experience with what has worked for them. There were so many good suggestions on this thread and hope Jules finds something that works for her and hope her trainer is open to adjusting to the needs of each dog in the class, training isn't a once size fits all thing.

Training has changed over the years and there are so many ways to accomplish the same task and hard to know what method to try when you are starting out. I love to watch accomplished trainers and happy dogs enjoying the sport of obedience. For me... I like to play games and am very positive. But even with positive training once the dog understands the commands you must move from training to doing. So of course there are going to be corrections but sometimes people forget to ALWAYS reward the second after the correction when the dog has done it correctly. 

Positive training with no leash is hard work because you must be totally engaged the entire training session and so against the way they did it back in the 60's. No more repetitive practice which to me is very boring, no more leash pop corrections but if this is what you are comfortable with... it works. 

Whatever method Jules goes with will be successful if she is consistent. Training is learning how to successfully communicate with your dog. My training has lots of pieces from lots of different trainers and what works on one dog won't necessarily work on another. You have to work with the dog you have and adjust to what works for you and that dog. 

Good luck Jules, enjoy your pup and find what you are comfortable doing with your puppy. Focus on what you want the end result to be with each task... find a method you are comfortable doing and be consistent. Good luck and enjoy!!


----------

