# Lost Drive - Hunt Training



## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I'm hoping someone here can offer some advice. Moe was in field training and was doing great. We trained him from day 1 and then at 6 months sent him to our trainer. Our trainer has done 4 dogs for us previously, and is very well respected. Moe was showing signs of truly being great. We were going to send him South over the winter to continue training with another trainer because he was doing so well. We have never even considered doing this before, as all of our dogs are Hunt Trained, but he was showing the trainer enough potential he felt he was the dog to put in field trials. 

About 1 1/2 months into training Moe developed a limp. Long story short after weeks of testing and finally CT Scans with 3D renderings done we figured out he had genetic malformation of the sesamoid bones in both feet. His elbows were also questioned, but we have since been told by the Ortho Specialist he thinks they are fine. We will x-ray him at 2 years old to double check, but he's been cleared to return to full activity and competition. We made the decision that we would Hunt Train only and forget the field trials. He was off for a solid 4 months, but we were following a strict rehab program.

We've had Moe back running for about a month. He just seems to have lost his drive. He loved it before. He still runs like a jet plane to play, but when doing bumper drills he sort of runs out and then prances back. He will do more if you make it all play, but the minute you get serious he kicks it down a gear. He was set to go back to the trainer and be finished May 1st. We aren't sure what to do. If we make it all fun he knows exactly what to do, but in all honesty my 8 year old (who is having major health issues) is twice as fast, and twice as motivated. Our 8 year old actually has a fit the entire time we are working with Moe because he is jealous. He wants to go!!! Moe acts like he can't wait while watching the other dog, but when it's his turn all that enthusiasm just sort of fizzles.

Last night instead of us just running him we had our son come over and take him out. Our son is a pretty good handler. He said the minute Moe senses pressure he shuts down. We called our trainer this morning and we are going to take him there next week for a day just to let him evaluate. He said sometimes they get lazy, and sometimes he can get them to snap back out of it.

We train our dogs because that's what they love to do and that's what we do with them. We are both fine if he is just going to be a pet, but I've never seen a dog that loved something so much change. He still loves a simple retrieve, he loves a water retrieve, but when you get to pile work or wagon wheel he sort of just slows down. I don't want to feel like we are making him do it. He still has the most natural prey drive of any dog we've ever owned.

Any suggestions???


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Sorry to hear you have had some issues. Before I venture a guess I would like to ask you what do you think caused this problem i.e. lost drive?


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

gdgli said:


> Sorry to hear you have had some issues. Before I venture a guess I would like to ask you what do you think caused this problem i.e. lost drive?


We honestly can't figure it out. We've wondered if because he had to have been sore the last day he was worked, or longer, is it that he's afraid somehow?? When he started to limp he was with our trainer. Our trainer called us and we met him at the vet. Our vet uses the same trainer for his field dogs so all of us have a pretty close relationship. We then crate rested him for well over a month while going through multiple tests and specialists. He is not afraid to run though. He chases live birds like a jet!! 

We've wondered if he's bored because he's basically stuck where his training stopped, but we really don't know. We have slowly gotten him back into everything, but he's doing it at the same pace we started at. In water I see the same excitement, he loves a straight thrown retrieve, but anything else he acts like he's doing because he has to.

We've also wondered if it's because he's been babied and just doesn't think he has to do anything that isn't fun. Where I get stuck is that he loved this before. I've never had a dog with so much love for it just stop liking it. 

To be clear nothing has been done to try and force it.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

poor Moe- poor you. I know how high those dreams were for him...

Maybe it is just a function of his break from work. I dk- start him on his pilework in the yard w some play between? 
Anney would be the one here to ask.. k9design.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Ok, my take on this. His previous behavior was outstanding. Now he is capable of working but at times not with the same energy. 

Possibilities: 1) Pressure was applied at an inappropriate time, he ran slow because he hurt (before it was known he had a health problem) so he was subjected to collar pressure 2) He is now OK until he starts to hurt 3) Great at play but not work---Cues in the field have turned into poisoned cues. Not uncommon in all aspects of dog training where a dog associates unpleasant things with a cue.


Solution: Reteach the behavior but add a new cue. This may not be a popular point of view however if you are interested I can send you a link on this.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

gdgli said:


> Ok, my take on this. His previous behavior was outstanding. Now he is capable of working but at times not with the same energy.
> 
> Possibilities: 1) Pressure was applied at an inappropriate time, he ran slow because he hurt (before it was known he had a health problem) so he was subjected to collar pressure 2) He is now OK until he starts to hurt 3) Great at play but not work---Cues in the field have turned into poisoned cues. Not uncommon in all aspects of dog training where a dog associates unpleasant things with a cue.
> 
> ...


You are saying everything we keep going back and forth about here at home. I would appreciate the link. I would rather try things here with us. I just want to see that spark come back. He knows everything he is supposed to do, but seems hesitant. We are training exactly what he was doing when we found the health problem so the poisoned cues make sense.

Last night after we stopped trying to do any training I gave him a 30 minute break and then took him out. We just had a play session. I'm pretty sure there is no pain. 

We've even thought about a complete change. Maybe dock diving, or obedience, he's to smart to not do anything. It's just hard because this is what we know.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Dogs and cats can get things like food aversions. Like when puppies and kittens eat kibble early on and jams a tooth down which is painful, they don't not want to eat anymore, they down want that food anymore. They associate the pain with that food, not eating in general.

My thought is that maybe Moe got hurt doing the training, so he's associating the pain and injury to the training methods. This is why once you bare down on the seriousness he comes down a notch. 

I would ask if it's during certain drills, certain items, like he's on it when a ball is involved but not when it's a bumper, if the bumper is what is being used all the time for training.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

DblTrblGolden


PM sent


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Have you done a full tick panel recently to make sure he does not have an active infection? I have seen behavioral changes in my dogs when they are infected. Tick diseases can make them hurt all over and be so very tired. But when something is fun or exciting they forget about it.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

GoldenMom999 said:


> Have you done a full tick panel recently to make sure he does not have an active infection? I have seen behavioral changes in my dogs when they are infected. Tick diseases can make them hurt all over and be so very tired. But when something is fun or exciting they forget about it.


It's not a health issue. Thank you for the idea though.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> My thought is that maybe Moe got hurt doing the training, so he's associating the pain and injury to the training methods. This is why once you bare down on the seriousness he comes down a notch.
> .


This is sort of our thought. He is excited to see the bumpers come out, and he loves to retrieve them. It is more when we are asking for higher level work. It's when we are trying to do specific drills, or using hand signals. It's sort of like as soon as it leaves the basics he gets worried, or loses the ambition.

We've been doing two or three commanded exercises and then throwing in a few just for fun retrieves. Even doing that you can see a definite change in the energy level between commanded and fun. He will do all of them, but I want to get that excitement back. 

It's not fun to train a dog that isn't having fun doing it. For us it's not about perfection, but he had so much promise it feels like we are doing him a disservice to not figure this out.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> This is sort of our thought. He is excited to see the bumpers come out, and he loves to retrieve them. It is more when we are asking for higher level work. It's when we are trying to do specific drills, or using hand signals. It's sort of like as soon as it leaves the basics he gets worried, or loses the ambition.
> 
> We've been doing two or three commanded exercises and then throwing in a few just for fun retrieves. Even doing that you can see a definite change in the energy level between commanded and fun. He will do all of them, but I want to get that excitement back.
> 
> It's not fun to train a dog that isn't having fun doing it. For us it's not about perfection, but he had so much promise it feels like we are doing him a disservice to not figure this out.


I hear you. Definitely want the dog to enjoy training and especially this type of training. This is interactive training that is supposed to be want he wants to do instinctually. 

The other thought I had was maybe he's still feeling the injury when he's really pushing it. Not affecting him but like some steps he feels a twinge that reminds him of what happened. 

I personally would just let him work up to it. Just do all the fun stuff, change the venue, change the object. If he's showing you he's happy playing and going his speed I would do that for a bit. It's also possible that with the issue he has that going that hard, maybe he feels that's something isn't right and he wants to turn it down a bit. But the fact he turn it in and off with the level of train makes me think it's mental for him. Like an athlete coming back from an ACL surgery. It takes them a while to feel right and trust it again.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> poor Moe- poor you. I know how high those dreams were for him...
> 
> Maybe it is just a function of his break from work. I dk- start him on his pilework in the yard w some play between?
> Anney would be the one here to ask.. k9design.


Thank you Robin. Sent her a message.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

DblTrbl



I want to thank you for bringing up this issue. Yesterday while training I examined my own cues and have found instances where I have poisoned a cue. Working on it now.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

gdgli said:


> DblTrbl
> 
> 
> 
> I want to thank you for bringing up this issue. Yesterday while training I examined my own cues and have found instances where I have poisoned a cue. Working on it now.



It's always somewhat heartening to hear others facing similar challenges. I made a big mistake with Shala about 18 months ago (pressure at an inappropriate time) and it shattered her confidence on blinds (she would no longer go). I have been working on rebuilding that confidence ever since (we train mostly very part-time, just once a week or so, except in summer months, so it's been slow). 



DblTrblGolden2 - I agree it's either related to the pain, or it might be a confidence issue, too. Shala is exactly the same - super enthusiastic, loves bumpers, loves ducks, and is great at basic stuff. When it starts getting more difficult and I am asking more of her, she also, as you put it, "gets worried" - which I describe as loses confidence. It's funny - once she GOES on a blind, she whistle sits perfectly and takes casts quite well. I just need to get her confidently going again 100% of the time (we're at about 75% on land, and hoping it carries to water when it gets warm enough to be back in). Hope you're able to figure it out.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

We worked on things several times this past weekend and he did better. We are going to keep trying to make some changes and see how it goes.

Thank you everyone for the help!


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Good news!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Yesterday we had a unique opportunity so we took advantage of it. There were a couple of people traveling through our area to get to an upcoming field trial. They kept their dogs overnight at our trainers house. We took Moe out for a few of them to watch. My trainer ran Moe through a couple of drills and at first things went well. He then saw exactly what we've been running into at home, Moe just sort of loses interest. Moe definitely knows exactly what he is suppose to do. He did it perfectly twice. On the third send he completely refused for the trainer. He went out and then laid down next to the retrieve. This was with no pressure.

He completely refused anything that a trainer that has never worked with him asked of him.

They then had us run him. He again did things for two to three tries. On the next run he ran out to the retrieve he should have made and then zoomed by everyone, making a wide circle through the field, and laid by our truck, never bringing the retrieve back.

We tried several different things. We looked at some video of him working before the injury, and we all came to the same conclusion, Moe associates getting hurt with working. He could also be being manipulative, but it's still for a reason. He doesn't want to do it.

We are going to continue to "play" with him and see if we can get his courage back up, but we aren't going to force it. Our trainer doesn't want to force it, and he's successfully trained every dog we've ever taken to him. He said he's never had a dog get hurt, or suffer such a medical problem, during training and he just thinks it's to much. I'm reluctant to say Moe got hurt because we have 4 different ortho specialists that all agree his issue is congenital, but it surfaced while he was training. I think if he wasn't being trained we may not have found it so soon, but eventually we would have. 

Although there is truly disappointment, we are all just happy Moe can run and be a very normal pet. There was a point that we were questioning quality of life for him. We have always bought our Golden's hoping to field train them, but knowing they may just be a pet. Moe will be a very happy and loved pet.

I'm trying to think if there is anything else we could do. One of the trainers there yesterday said he thinks agility is also to much pressure. He thinks we would get the same reaction. I also worry it may be to much on Moe physically. We still aren't sure about his elbows. One of the trainers recommended service work, but he's really high strung. I'm wondering about obedience, but some of what we teach is different then the classes I've looked into. He also is already trained....

Just wanted to update.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Yesterday we had a unique opportunity so we took advantage of it. There were a couple of people traveling through our area to get to an upcoming field trial. They kept their dogs overnight at our trainers house. We took Moe out for a few of them to watch. My trainer ran Moe through a couple of drills and at first things went well. He then saw exactly what we've been running into at home, Moe just sort of loses interest. Moe definitely knows exactly what he is suppose to do. He did it perfectly twice. On the third send he completely refused for the trainer. He went out and then laid down next to the retrieve. This was with no pressure.
> 
> He completely refused anything that a trainer that has never worked with him asked of him.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. That was what I felt was the underlying issue. A mental block about getting hurry again for the same activity. He'll probably get over it with time and just doing it over and over again, but will take some time. 

Good luck and hope he gets that drive back. Moe needs his mojo back!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Just wanted to give an update. After putting our heads together we are going to back up a bit in training and try to go forward using a different approach. We are going back to some of the basic obedience and teaching it over again using some different cues. We are also consulting with a different trainer. She thinks we can do this on our own, but is willing to help out if we get stuck. I think we have a very smart, but head strong 1 year old on our hands. The good news is he wants to please and picks things up really quickly. I also don't think extra obedience training can ever hurt.

I also went to a dock diving competition over the weekend. It looks like a fun time. We didn't take our dogs but they allowed people to try it out and I'm pretty sure both our guys would love it.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I also went to a dock diving competition over the weekend. It looks like a fun time. We didn't take our dogs but they allowed people to try it out and I'm pretty sure both our guys would love it.



It's very fun. I see it as Shala's total fun sport - no real rules, other than holding the sit at the foot of the dock until I release her. And it's a chance to do big entries into water (which she loves to do) and swim all day. What more can a dog ask for?


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Sweet Girl said:


> It's very fun. I see it as Shala's total fun sport - no real rules, other than holding the sit at the foot of the dock until I release her. And it's a chance to do big entries into water (which she loves to do) and swim all day. What more can a dog ask for?


It's funny because the first dog refused to jump, and then a Golden came out flying. We watched for a while and when we left my husband and I both thought that our dogs would love it. There didn't seem to be anything involved that they don't both already do.

Later that night my son came over and he had been at the same outdoor expo, but at a different time. He said "we should load our dogs up one weekend and try it". He has a lab that jumps from one end of my pool to the other from a sit. My pool is 30' long. We actually were afraid last year he was going to hit the end.

It just seemed relaxed and fun. To be clear I'm sure we weren't watching the very best dogs, but they were having a great time.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> It's funny because the first dog refused to jump, and then a Golden came out flying. We watched for a while and when we left my husband and I both thought that our dogs would love it. There didn't seem to be anything involved that they don't both already do.
> 
> Later that night my son came over and he had been at the same outdoor expo, but at a different time. He said "we should load our dogs up one weekend and try it". He has a lab that jumps from one end of my pool to the other from a sit. My pool is 30' long. We actually were afraid last year he was going to hit the end.
> 
> It just seemed relaxed and fun. To be clear I'm sure we weren't watching the very best dogs, but they were having a great time.



(Sorry for the thread hijack!)

You should definitely bring your dog to an event (or see if there are classes in your area, that's how we started). But most events have opportunities for dogs to try it - either before the competition, or at the end. Or just sign up for one wave - it's about $25-$30 a wave. If your dog doesn't like it, or doesn't jump, well, so you lost $30. Email the event organizer to check before you go and see what your options are, but generally, they are interested in helping people get into the sport (that's my experience with Dock Dogs - I've never been to other dock diving organizations' events).


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> It's funny because the first dog refused to jump, and then a Golden came out flying. We watched for a while and when we left my husband and I both thought that our dogs would love it. There didn't seem to be anything involved that they don't both already do.
> 
> Later that night my son came over and he had been at the same outdoor expo, but at a different time. He said "we should load our dogs up one weekend and try it". He has a lab that jumps from one end of my pool to the other from a sit. My pool is 30' long. We actually were afraid last year he was going to hit the end.
> 
> It just seemed relaxed and fun. To be clear I'm sure we weren't watching the very best dogs, but they were having a great time.


So I took Maggie in to the local pet valu to use their self serve dog washing station. It's over 4 feet like maybe 4.5 feet high for the front ledge and it's all ceramic tile. I taped the ledge for Maggie to put her paws up so I could pick her to put her in. This is the norm for when we come which is an average of about 3 times a month for a bath (the dryer is the reason lol). This was from a sit about a foot or so back, she just cleared it without touching anything. Just BOOM! and she was in. I had to pick up my jaw. Then when she turned around, she had this look like hmmph, why did I do this!? Lol

She's so athletic it's crazy and I don't have time for agility but the dock diving I'll be doing this summer.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> So I took Maggie in to the local pet valu to use their self serve dog washing station. It's over 4 feet like maybe 4.5 feet high for the front ledge and it's all ceramic tile. I taped the ledge for Maggie to put her paws up so I could pick her to put her in. This is the norm for when we come which is an average of about 3 times a month for a bath (the dryer is the reason lol). This was from a sit about a foot or so back, she just cleared it without touching anything. Just BOOM! and she was in. I had to pick up my jaw. Then when she turned around, she had this look like hmmph, why did I do this!? Lol
> 
> She's so athletic it's crazy and I don't have time for agility but the dock diving I'll be doing this summer.


Is there a club in Maryland? I'm in Delaware and seem to have no luck finding anything.... It really did look fun.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Is there a club in Maryland? I'm in Delaware and seem to have no luck finding anything.... It really did look fun.



I don't know I'm just over the DE MD line in Elkton but I do everything in DE, Newark area. I'm going to start on my own and I'll look for something. Just look up dock dogs and they should have a schedule of where and when they will setting up places.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

It looks like Dock Dogs will be at Concord Pet's Pets in the Park event (Glasgow Park at RT 40 and 896) in June Friday the 7th and Saturday the 8th. They usually have the Dock Dogs there for it.


https://dockdogs.com/eventscal/pets-in-the-park-4/


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

There is the Delmarva dock dogs as well


https://www.delmarvadockdogs.com/


The site looks like it's not current though after rummaging through it


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Is there a club in Maryland? I'm in Delaware and seem to have no luck finding anything.... It really did look fun.



You don't need to join a club - you can just register for an event in your area. Check out the Dock Dogs website. There is also North American Diving Dogs (have not done their events).


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Sweet Girl said:


> You don't need to join a club - you can just register for an event in your area. Check out the Dock Dogs website. There is also North American Diving Dogs (have not done their events).


And Ultimate Air Dogs (but they don't do AKC titling, if that's something you're interested in).


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Going back to your problem of not retrieving after a few times. I’d do a couple of short to mid range retrieves with him every day. Since you say after 2 or 3, he doesn’t want to work anymore, so just do 2 retrieves, then that problem doesn’t happen.
At the same time I would go back to the beginning of force fetch. When you do, make sure it’s after those 2 fun retrieves when his attitude is good, then do a short simple FF. Start at hold again and go all the way thru. It will take a good 3 weeks if you work with him every day for FF. After every FF session, I’d thrown one nice fun bumper and call it a day to end on a positive note. For every retrieve I’d also keep him on a long line so he can’t get away and lie down.
Don’t make his FF sessions long and drawn out.
Keep a journal every single time for everything you do with him. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Alaska7133 said:


> Going back to your problem of not retrieving after a few times. I’d do a couple of short to mid range retrieves with him every day. Since you say after 2 or 3, he doesn’t want to work anymore, so just do 2 retrieves, then that problem doesn’t happen.
> At the same time I would go back to the beginning of force fetch. When you do, make sure it’s after those 2 fun retrieves when his attitude is good, then do a short simple FF. Start at hold again and go all the way thru. It will take a good 3 weeks if you work with him every day for FF. After every FF session, I’d thrown one nice fun bumper and call it a day to end on a positive note. For every retrieve I’d also keep him on a long line so he can’t get away and lie down.
> Don’t make his FF sessions long and drawn out.
> Keep a journal every single time for everything you do with him.
> Just my 2 cents.


Thank you. We've backed it way up!! He will FF all day with no issues. We were doing a lot of pile work and drills so we have completely stopped it for a couple weeks. I think we were over doing it. We are doing short fun retrieves, and going back to obedience and things he knows for a couple of weeks. We are also doing water work because he loves that. In the last couple of weeks we have figured out he's lost his confidence. We are slowly rebuilding and seeing improvements daily.

I've never had to completely stop training for 4 months right at the age it's so important. We are working with a new trainer and her techniques seem to be working with him. We are doing it all ourselves, but she is guiding each step. He is the polar opposite of our 8 year old. He's making us better at training. lol

I think we were doing way to much repetition and he was bored. I also think everything was way to long and drawn out. We were trying to make up for lost time and it was just to much. We've figured out he's a thinker. Our 8 year old would jump off a mountain if you said BACK, and I don't think I've ever seen him even hesitate. (We were spoiled) This guy is making us work!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

You're right every dog is different. I can't train Lucy more than 2 or 3 times in a week. Riot will train all day long every day. You just have to work with what your dog is. Sounds like you have a plan. You'll be back on track before you know it!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

"I think we were doing way to much repetition and he was bored. I also think everything was way to long and drawn out. We were trying to make up for lost time and it was just to much. We've figured out he's a thinker. Our 8 year old would jump off a mountain if you said BACK, and I don't think I've ever seen him even hesitate. (We were spoiled) This guy is making us work!"


My mentor's last dog, Bones, did better with fewer reps. He would say to me "I can't do too much with her, she does better with less. I do what I need to do, then put her away". He also said to know your dog and stop with the dog wanting just one more retrieve.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I wanted to update this thread just in case someone else ever goes through something similar. I also thought maybe some of you that offered such helpful advice deserved an update...

Moe is back to retrieving and loving it. He is once again excited to see bumpers come out. He is steady and casting well, he is consistently delivering to hand again. He is also running the fastest I've ever seen a dog run to do the drills, often to the point that he is over running and sliding on his front end to get back to it. (not so desirable, but from where we started it's great)

*How did we get here?*

We backed all the way up. We stopped all retrieving, even balls. We haven't used an e-collar in 4 months. We also changed all cues and even made sure we changed the tone of voice we were using. We haven't had any one other then myself and my husband work with him. My son is a good handler, but learned from our trainer so he was left out as well. 

We consulted with Lori Jolly and she was a huge help. We started with her place board training and worked through the steps she outlines in her videos and books. We also read Robert Milners's book and used a lot of his techniques. They both overlap. This was a much different approach then our trainer uses, but it seemed to work in this situation. It is hard to start over.

We train the desired behavior for no more then 5 - 10 minutes a day. We reinforce the easy stuff for the rest of the training time, and then we just play. Moe is smart, fast, and eager to please. 

*What do I now think went wrong?*
Moe was in pain from his feet and no one knew. He was being trained and shouldn't have been for at least two weeks at my best guess. As the pain progressed he related the E-Collar, FF, and casting to the pain and refused to do it. He also is smart enough that the minute he saw the collar come out, or a bumper he just turned off. It's odd because most hunt/field dogs get excited, or at least ours do. There is nothing they love more. Moe will not work for our trainer, and I will not put him back in that situation. I am not blaming our trainer. He is good and has done multiple dogs for us. I'm also not saying that our traditional training method doesn't work. It did! I have Duke that loves our trainer to this day. My son has a lab puppy with him right now and she is excelling. 

Moe had a genetic problem that didn't become apparent until he was running over 30 yards on retrieves. Some of his problem may be that he is so darn fast. He learns fast, runs fast, and jumps high. He's the most athletic dog I've ever owned while at the same time has the worst structural integrity I've ever seen.

*What now?*
Moe is dock diving on a limited basis. He earned his Senior Dock title this summer. We don't attend every event. We are careful with him.

Maybe we could hunt test him, but we are going to wait until next April to make that decision. We will have new x-rays of his feet, elbows, and hips done and sent to OFA at that time. (Hard to believe he'll be 2) If his elbows clear and his feet are good we may consider starting with the JH test. Our fear is the terrain. He is fine in a nice level field, or nicely mowed pond area, but his health and longevity are most important. We both hold our breath every time he stumbles, or tumbles head over heels to get a bumper. (he's clumsy) His original CT Scans show elbow problems, and I tend to believe they didn't go away. We may have to fix them if that's an option. Our surgeon and our rehab Drs both advised waiting given his feet.

He is a great pet. He won't go into a real hunting situation. My husband feels like we are asking for trouble to put him in a blind on the marsh or in a corn field with ruts and stalks. If he was slower and more careful we may not worry so much.

We are going to keep training him ourselves and just see how far we can get. He may never earn the titles but he's taught us so much! 

I know there are so many different opinions on field training techniques and I feel like through this experience I've run the gamut. Here's what I know; collar conditioning works, force fetch works, the old standard of training works. Those of you involved know all the methods I'm referring too. Here's what I've learned; there is another way, the old way doesn't work for every dog, it's harder to change your training methods and start over then it is to start and follow one path.

*Our Future*
So Duke is having some serious health issues and is definitely no longer going in the field. Moe will most likely never see an actual hunt, unless it's the perfect situation. We have decided that sometime in the future we will be adding another dog to our lives. We are going to do everything we can to ensure it's health. We are both far more knowledgeable then we've ever been before about many things. The question we keep asking ourselves is how will we train the new addition? Do we try ourselves? Do we send it to our trainer at 7 months like we have in the past? Do we send it to a trainer that uses these methods that Moe has responded to? The one thing with Moe was he already knew what to do, we just had to get him to want to do it again.

Our hope is that whatever direction the new addition goes in we will be able to take Moe along for part of it. We are going to try and pursue scent work. I think Moe would love that. I'm hoping to try rally, or agility with the new addition too. 

The bottom line...... Moe got his MOJO back! If his joints and feet would hold up he has his drive back and could again excel in hunt/field training.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Thanks for the update. I wish you luck.


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