# Thoughts and opinions on Cesar Millan's statement about a dog walking out in front



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I think, if you don't have any other issues with your dog and can keep them under control, it's not a big deal. But if you have a dog who is pulling, going after other dogs or otherwise, then it's better that they're beside you instead. My guys are pretty good on leash or walking close off leash, and usually walk beside me so they know where I am and don't get in trouble for wandering ahead, which they tend to do if they're already in front. If they're beside and can see me then they tend to stay in place better. Remember he's usually working with very dominant dogs and people who are having issues with them. If your boy is ok walking ahead, and you can change directions or stop him, then I don't see a problem.

Lana


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I will say BS or I don't care.

Gunner can pull at times and I tell him to heel. He has been through much obedience training , is under my control and I thoroughly and totally believe in training you and your dog in obedience. 

Other times we go for a leisurely walk and I don't make the boys heel at my side, I give them some leeway to smell and stop etc.

I do beieve some breeds are more prone to dominance. I'm not a big Caesar fan but he does many good things I'm sure.


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## Nikki Boy (Mar 14, 2009)

This is my second Golden. Casey was such a puller until he was an old man. I didn't like it because I has to wait until my boys weighed more than he in order to walk him. I was determined Nick would not pull. I took him to obedience class and then another class as he would lunge to say hi to other dogs. We were working hard until winter hit and he was doing well. But now is another story - have to start over again I guess. As far as dominance I don't know but I think Cesar is pretty sharp when it comes to dogs - I have noticed if I am having an anxious nervous day he is worse so maybe there is something to the whole calm assertive thing. I am determined for Nick to be an enjoyable dog to walk and someday I want to be like Lana above and walk him off leash.


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## AmberDawn (Dec 26, 2008)

I tend to agree with you because I found the idea that my pupper who will roll on his back into the submissive position for a belly rub for just about anyone (including his vet!) to be dominant confusing to say the least. He'll also walk off leash and not take off and comes when he's called, he's friendly to other dogs etc.
I also think you're right in that Cesar works with dogs that are agressive or very dominant with issues. I'm beginning to suppose that perhaps Cesar's methods/ideas are more appropriate to his typical kind of clients vs. the "general" dog owner population.
Thx!


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## AmberDawn (Dec 26, 2008)

oh another post came up while replying in case it's not clear I was replying to Bender and Debles (just to make my reply a little more clear!)
thanks again for your input


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## Nikki Boy (Mar 14, 2009)

I figured - no problem - how old is Roscoe he looks pretty young also?


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

AmberDawn said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm looking for people's thoughts and opinions on Cesar Millan's statement that if your dog is walking in front of you on the walk that he is displaying dominance over you.
> 
> Thx


Nonsense. Stuff like that shows that Cesar has a very poor understanding of animal behavior, and he doesn't understand at all what dominance means.

He's obviously never heard of mushing or skijoring - are all those dogs "dominant" to their mushers because they are in front? Is the lead dog "dominant" because he's in front? Hell, no - any musher can tell you this.

Cesar consistently confuses leading with dominance. It's a common mistake, but not one anybody who claims to be an animal trainer should make.


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## AmberDawn (Dec 26, 2008)

Nikki Boy- Yup you're right he's still quite young. He just turned 14 month on 08Mar09.

Pudden-Couldn't agree more, as I've wondered the same thing about sled dogs and rescue dogs etc. And also not to mention that I don't know about the rest of you but sometimes I'll let Rosco jog beside me off leash and he is definitely faster and has more stamina than me and I can't see this being dominance, he's just plain faster!
Side note for Pudden - loooooove your Pud stories esp "Ode to the Pud". I'm in agreeance w/ Beaushel I think you should consider a book. Your stories always make me smile!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Frankly, I think it's crap. Saying a dog in front is automatically exerting dominance ignores the myriad of more obvious reasons why a dog might try to be in front:

* He's excited to be on a walk.
* He sees something he wants to get to.
* He has twice as many legs and can naturally go faster!
* Walking at the side of a human is not a natural behavior for dogs and must first be taught.

The vast majority of what people (even those seen on televison) tout as "dominance displays" in pet dogs can easily (and w/ scientific back up) be explained as something very different.

So no. I don't agree that walking in front = dominance.


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## AmberDawn (Dec 26, 2008)

thanks guys I feel so much better now!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If we are just walking casually, I actually prefer that my dogs be in front. It is easier for me to keep an eye on them and, if I am walking 3 or more at once, it is way easier.

I don't think too much of Cesar.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Daisy typically walks a bit in front of me but I don't think of her as a dominant dog at all. I doubt that Cesar would see her as dominant either. She doesn't rule the nest, sometimes she gets her way, sometimes I get mine. We live together nicely and we work things out together easily.

I also let her go in the door first but that's because it's easier to hold the screen door open from the outside than the inside.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Frankly, I think it's crap. Saying a dog in front is automatically exerting dominance ignores the myriad of more obvious reasons why a dog might try to be in front:
> 
> * He's excited to be on a walk.
> * He sees something he wants to get to.
> ...


I think you hit the nail on the head.

As Patricia McConnell (from the calling-all-pets radio show) puts it, "walk by your owner's side at the pace of death and ignore all interesting things" is NOT a natural tendency for any dog, dominant or not, and will have to be taught.

BTW, if you're interested, I studied dominance and leadership in muskoxen for my dissertation. I followed herds of muskoxen across the tundra in all 4 seasons and recorded how they coordinate group movements.

Dominance is about access to resources: who gets first pick. For example, I'm dominant over you if I can push you away from a favorite feeding site or from your perch on the couch. The dominant animals in muskoxen tend to be the large bulls, as they are twice the size of the others.

Leaders, however, tend to be the wily older females. They know where to go to eat what. They have the experience, the memory of the landscape, and the automatic followship in their offspring and younger relatives. When the group is on the move, the older girls direct the general movement, but they are NOT necessarily in the front. They can lead from the middle or the rear as well.

Now, if your dog competes with your for your lunch sandwhich and wins, or kicks you off the couch to make himself comfy there, THEN he would display dominance. Who's in front of whom at the walk has NOTHING at all to do with dominance.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

A dog pulling you down the road is a clear indication that he has not been trained not to pull his person down the street. Dominance has nothing to do with it. Dogs can be taught to walk towards and through interesting things (to them) while remaining ahead of the handler but not pulling them. Heck, some of the most dominant aggressive dogs I've met actually had beautiful "loose leash" quasi-heel work on walks - mostly because their owners HAD to put in the time to work loose leash because of their dog's issues.
Erica


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## Nikki Boy (Mar 14, 2009)

I think you all are probably right that is not dominance, however at the same time I want to be a better dog trainer so I can walk enjoyably with my dog and even some day walk him off leash. Anybody got any good tips.

I thought Nick and Roscoe looked about the same age:--happy:.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Pudden said:


> I think you hit the nail on the head.
> 
> As Patricia McConnell (from the calling-all-pets radio show) puts it, "walk by your owner's side at the pace of death and ignore all interesting things" is NOT a natural tendency for any dog, dominant or not, and will have to be taught.
> 
> Now, if your dog competes with your for your lunch sandwhich and wins, or kicks you off the couch to make himself comfy there, THEN he would display dominance. Who's in front of whom at the walk has NOTHING at all to do with dominance.


I LOVE Patricia McConnell. I just finished her new book Tales of Two Species. Some of it is repeated from The Other End of the Leash, but it's still a worthwhile and wonderful read.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Nikki Boy said:


> I think you all are probably right that is not dominance, however at the same time I want to be a better dog trainer so I can walk enjoyably with my dog and even some day walk him off leash. Anybody got any good tips.


Yup. Start taking an entire meal (all his breakfast or dinner kibble) with you on walks and feed him a few pieces by hand whenever you have a loose leash. In the beginning, you'll be "paying" him for every step you take. Then you'll gradually notice he now *wants* to be closer to you by choice, so then you can put a couple steps between kibbles.

It's just about making it WORTH IT for the dog to walk OUR WAY when to them, THEIR WAY makes more sense and initially is more fun.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There are those who will say that I say this simply because I do not worship Cesar. But, I don't care who said this, I think it's a boatload of crap. I've seen dogs that were terribly "submissive" who have pulled ahead of their owners - frankly, it looked like they were doing it simply to be anywhere else but where they were. I've seen dogs that were definately not dominant who pulled or walked ahead simply because they had not been trained to do it any differently. I've seen dogs that were not in the least dominant do it because they were excited and happy. 
When on walks, my dogs walk at heel on a loose leash. Yet, in the ring, I want them to move out ahead of me, and they do. Dominance has nothing to do with it.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> There are those who will say that I say this simply because I do not worship Cesar. But, I don't care who said this, I think it's a boatload of crap. I've seen dogs that were terribly "submissive" who have pulled ahead of their owners - frankly, it looked like they were doing it simply to be anywhere else but where they were. I've seen dogs that were definately not dominant who pulled or walked ahead simply because they had not been trained to do it any differently. I've seen dogs that were not in the least dominant do it because they were excited and happy.
> When on walks, my dogs walk at heel on a loose leash. Yet, in the ring, I want them to move out ahead of me, and they do. Dominance has nothing to do with it.


Oh Laura. You know we're just jealous! :::::::


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Oh Laura. You know we're just jealous! :::::::


 
Green with .


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I completely agree that being in front does not make a dog suddenly think he's a leader or that he's able to "dominate" you. I think Milan tends to fit everything he sees into his dominance model, and it can be really unhelpful.

On the flip side, if you do have a pulling problem, using his techniques to get the dog to walk behind you would probably work fairly well. Nonetheless, I VASTLY prefer Steph's luring/targeting technique for teaching heeling through drawing the dog's attention and focus to you. Cesar can get a dog to dutifully walk behind him and to stop being a pain in the butt, but the method Steph outlined will get you that joyful prance where the dog is working with you and is having a blast to boot.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

I personally can't stand that show and I find a lot of his "training" techniques to be absolutely ridiculous. Did anyone see the episode where he tried to get an 11-month St. Bernard pup to walk up and down stairs? He literally dragged that huge dog up and down the stairs one single time and was like, "There, he's trained!" I have a friend who swears by his techniques and she keeps telling us that we should use them on our dogs. She even goes as far as putting her 2 terriers on the treadmill and thinks we should do the same with Tucker! Yeah right!! I like Victoria S. much better.


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## Nikki Boy (Mar 14, 2009)

Don't jump on me for this but I think he always says "he is a human trainer, and a dog rehabilitator", people usually call him when they have a huge issue. At first I liked him but then I realized his techniques are not for us normal folks. I do however think he truly loves dogs. There is this other lady with a show called "It's me or the Dog" who seems to have much more real and applicable solutions.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

In defense of CM... I do agree that most pet dogs are grossly under-exercised and that well-exercised dogs are easier to live with and tend to not develop as many behavior problems. So the tredmill thing, when done safely and correctly, can be a good thing.

I agree that dogs are under-exercised, need guidance/leadership and shouldn't be treated like furry little people. Beyond that, I adamently disagree with the majority of his training techniques, find them very damaging to the dog/human relationship and in many cases, emotionally and physically damaging to the dog himself.


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## AmberDawn (Dec 26, 2008)

Thanks folks,
Everyone has been really helpful. You guys have helped me confirm my suspiscions that since this is Rosco's (so far) seemingly only challenge that it's quite normal and by no means means that he thinks he's dominant. Whew! I just didn't understand how such a sweet caring goof ball could be dominant. 
Someone mentioned "Stephs targeting/luring technique". I'm not sure what this is can someone tell me where to find this technique. I haven't read any of Patricia McConell's books would I be able to find it there or somewhere else?
thanks again everyone


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I prefer mine to walk on my left side with a loose leash.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

It is absolute rubbish that a dog that pulls is in some way trying 'dominate' you....what nonsense! You dog is very pleased to be going on a walk and wants to get there as fast as he can. Doesn't ceser think its odd that dogs that are full of energy want to dominate a human but a dog that has had a good few hours running around in a field suddenly loses this dominance trait and is happy to walk by your side....silly man.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I have to defend Cesar in this instance. Usually when he says something like this he says "see how the dog is walking in front? Dog in front is dominant.". I personally think this is where the language barrier comes in. I think, personally, that he is speaking about *that specific dog*. Not all dogs. I have seen him wearing his rollerblades and having the dog pull him along to burn off the dog's energy.

I think he has some good ideas for aggressive dogs. Not for the average dog.

My three walk in front of me any time I walk them. If it's one at a time, then they walk next to me. Not because I make them, but because instead of being a pack of three in front of me, they are a pack with me.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmberDawn said:


> Thanks folks,
> Everyone has been really helpful. You guys have helped me confirm my suspiscions that since this is Rosco's (so far) seemingly only challenge that it's quite normal and by no means means that he thinks he's dominant. Whew! I just didn't understand how such a sweet caring goof ball could be dominant.
> Someone mentioned "Stephs targeting/luring technique". I'm not sure what this is can someone tell me where to find this technique. I haven't read any of Patricia McConell's books would I be able to find it there or somewhere else?
> thanks again everyone


Oh, Stephanie is FlyingQuizini's real human name. Sorry, I should have used her forum name for clarity's sake. She described a technique of basically feeding a kibble meal (or small cut-up treats) as you walk, so the dog learns to look to you for fun and guidance. He gets a treat if he's in the right spot (or at least giving you slack), but nothing if he's not. It's a great way of establishing rapport with your dog on a walk that doesn't involve negatives.

Here's her original post on it:



FlyingQuizini said:


> Yup. Start taking an entire meal (all his breakfast or dinner kibble) with you on walks and feed him a few pieces by hand whenever you have a loose leash. In the beginning, you'll be "paying" him for every step you take. Then you'll gradually notice he now *wants* to be closer to you by choice, so then you can put a couple steps between kibbles.
> 
> It's just about making it WORTH IT for the dog to walk OUR WAY when to them, THEIR WAY makes more sense and initially is more fun.


Just to add my own advice, reinforcing a heel with food is all about luring and timing. You can use the food to get his attention and move it without giving it until he's in the right spot. Then let him grab it. After a few tries, he'll get the idea that you basically become a food dispenser if he walks like a gentleman. 

Once he starts to grasp the idea, you move away from the treats by only giving them sporadically and by popping (not jerking) his leash if he starts to pull. A pop interrupts the behavior; it's not a punishment or a way of hauling the dog back to your side. The idea is to graduate to a situation where the treats aren't necessary.

Anybody know any good books on positive heel training? I learned directly from a great trainer, so I don't have more detailed resources to share than that simple description of the technique.


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## AmberDawn (Dec 26, 2008)

Marvelous tippykayak now that it's warmed up here in the 'Peg recently I think I'll give that technique a try. It's odd though we just started beginners agility and in that instance he's stays right next to me focused on me without any treats! Guess I should try Steph's technique to try and get that same focus on the walk!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmberDawn said:


> Marvelous tippykayak now that it's warmed up here in the 'Peg recently I think I'll give that technique a try. It's odd though we just started beginners agility and in that instance he's stays right next to me focused on me without any treats! Guess I should try Steph's technique to try and get that same focus on the walk!


What do you do to get him to focus on you in agility? You may be able to help him understand you're asking for something similar outside. They're often quite poor at extending a skill from one situation to another on their own, but if you can get him to understand that you're asking for the same thing, it may click.


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## AmberDawn (Dec 26, 2008)

Hmmmm. I have to think about why he's so focused in agility. I honestly can't figure out why but he just absolutely loves the obstacles. Perhaps it's just that he's chomping at the bit to get into the obstacles and will therefore do backflips to get into/on them. Any ideas how I can translate that to the walk?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

The more Lucky is a front...the less he listens to my direction. He just naturally think he's leading....

I do allow him 'space" but once he don't listen or starts pulling, then he's beside me, not ahead of me.


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## sophiesadiehannah's mom (Feb 11, 2007)

my dogs walk in front, there is not a dominant bone in their bodies. i think they just like to show off their owners. lol


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmberDawn said:


> Hmmmm. I have to think about why he's so focused in agility. I honestly can't figure out why but he just absolutely loves the obstacles. Perhaps it's just that he's chomping at the bit to get into the obstacles and will therefore do backflips to get into/on them. Any ideas how I can translate that to the walk?


Think about the body language and voice you use to send him to an obstacle. In order to do that, you have to have good communication going back and forth with the pup where you're reading his excitement and he's looking to you for cues. Maybe you can use something similar to make a game out of walking in just the right spot next to you.

I find it MUCH more difficult to get Comet to pay attention to me ten feet away as I'm telling him to take a jump or to skip it than when he's right on the end of the leash. I feel confident that your communication skills for agility can translate effectively to making _heel_ a game.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

fostermom said:


> I have to defend Cesar in this instance. Usually when he says something like this he says "see how the dog is walking in front? Dog in front is dominant.". I personally think this is where the language barrier comes in. I think, personally, that he is speaking about *that specific dog*. Not all dogs. I have seen him wearing his rollerblades and having the dog pull him along to burn off the dog's energy.
> 
> I think he has some good ideas for aggressive dogs. Not for the average dog.
> 
> My three walk in front of me any time I walk them. If it's one at a time, then they walk next to me. Not because I make them, but because instead of being a pack of three in front of me, they are a pack with me.


I agree. I think it depends on the particular dog and situation. I'm sure there are some dogs that want to walk in front because they are showing dominance. There are some that walk in front just because they're enjoying the walk. I'm not for or against any one method of training (unless it's hurting the dog), and I try to learn all I can just because I like to. Then I just use what I feel will work for me and my particular situation. There are TONS of times dogs are in front on the show and he even talks about it being fine because of their personality. That being said, I've been to positive reinforcement training and for Banner, it's fine. Just my two cents .


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

bwoz said:


> I'm sure there are some dogs that want to walk in front because they are showing dominance. .


No - there are some dogs that walk in front AND are dominant, but they don't walk in front BECAUSE they are dominant. Those are very different behavior patterns. The distinction may seem small from the human point of view, but it's a big difference when you try to understand the dog's motivation and base your training on it


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't usually weigh in on 'Dog Whisperer' topics, but I did see an episode recently where he wanted the dog to walk beside the owner to keep the dog's attention on the owner and not on what was ahead of him. In this case it wasn't dominance it was stopping a behavior to correct a problem, dragging the owner while on a walk. They also put a backpack on the dog to give it a task. Problem solved by end of episode...just like real life!


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Dakota is and always has been _terrible _on a leash. He's at the age where I don't really try to do much about it any more. The only time he's on a leash is for vet visits these days anyway. We do all his exercise, running, etc.. in the back yard.

When he was a 70 pound 'puppy', he caught me SO off guard once in the front yard, and based on his position to me it was the 'perfect storm'.

He was behind me and the last I saw he was taking a leak. Before I knew it, he took off after a bird or something and I swear he almost tore my arm out. He had 8 feet of lead before he got to me, then the 8 feet of lead away from me. That was 16 feet of lead space for him to get to full speed. I'm 6'4", 350 pounds and he pulled me right off my feet onto my butt.

He's not that bad these days. He's just a wanderer basically


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I like watching the show. I don't always agree with everything he says or does, but I think considering the kind of dogs he has to work with, really give him credit for what he does. Not sure if I agree with him about pulling dogs, at least not in the context of dogs without serious issues, maybe with dogs with serious problems it does make some kind of sense. I think some of the dogs he works with that are the red zone ones, without intervention probably would have ended up euthanised because of serious aggression. I also have been watching the show about Dog Town, I give that place and the people who work there tons of credit too. Saw a repeat of the special about the Michael Vick dogs, broke my heart to see what happened to those dogs. Takes a special kind of person to try and rehabilitate dogs like that.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Pudden said:


> No - there are some dogs that walk in front AND are dominant, but they don't walk in front BECAUSE they are dominant. Those are very different behavior patterns. The distinction may seem small from the human point of view, but it's a big difference when you try to understand the dog's motivation and base your training on it


I whole-heartedly agree.


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## bwoz (Jul 12, 2007)

Pudden said:


> No - *there are some dogs that walk in front AND are dominant, but they don't walk in front BECAUSE they are dominant*. Those are very different behavior patterns. The distinction may seem small from the human point of view, but it's a big difference when you try to understand the dog's motivation and base your training on it


I don't want to disect my wording of it, but all I was trying to do is agree with another poster and say that I don't think CM generalizes walking in front=dominance with *all* dogs. I've seen plenty of shows where that isn't an issue at all. IMHO I just think every dog and situation is different. And there isn't one thing across the board that works for everyone CM methods or not .


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

you may be right, of course, but then it's Cesar's job to express himself clearly and to explain to his audience that a certain remedy is NOT generally suited to any dog. I think the biggest general criticism directed at him is that he doesn't do so.

If he just grunts out neanderthalistic statements such as "dog in front dominant", he creates the impression that he thinks it's always so with every dog. It's his job to qualify this and explain the finer points of it to his audience.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Pudden said:


> you may be right, of course, but then it's Cesar's job to express himself clearly and to explain to his audience that a certain remedy is NOT generally suited to any dog. I think the biggest general criticism directed at him is that he doesn't do so.
> 
> If he just grunts out neanderthalistic statements such as "dog in front dominant", he creates the impression that he thinks it's always so with every dog. It's his job to qualify this and explain the finer points of it to his audience.


 Actually, he has a disclaimer at the beginning of the show stating not to try this stuff at home and to consult a professional. 

It's no different than the America's Wildest Police Chases or Max TV where people do stupid things. If people try to do them at home without any type of training (stuntman, etc), then they really aren't the brightest. Why would you blame the show or the host?


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm pretty sure the people being chased on America's Wildest Police Chases aren't being presented as any sort of authority figure or expert, and the show/host do not claim that it is the proper way to react when a police car is behind you : And do you think that people who try Cesar's techniques at home are also "not the brightest"? Surprised that hasn't gotten more of a reaction ... 

Disclaimer or no, it's clear that Cesar is being presented as an expert and overall suggesting that people deal with their dogs in the manner that he does, that his is the correct way to deal with dogs, etc.


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## hmsalazar (Feb 19, 2009)

if your dog do what you want, he could be in front of you, but if he pulls you, go after another dogs or to places you dont want to go then he is dominating you, he could be cute or whatever but hi is dominating you, its the same as kids, if the what something they cry and run to get it, and you can say "oh pour little kid" but if they get what they want, they are dominating you


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hmsalazar said:


> if your dog do what you want, he could be in front of you, but if he pulls you, go after another dogs or to places you dont want to go then he is dominating you, he could be cute or whatever but hi is dominating you, its the same as kids, if the what something they cry and run to get it, and you can say "oh pour little kid" but if they get what they want, they are dominating you


I disagree. In a social heirarchy, dominance is about access to and competition over resources. There's one bone and I get it - I'm dominant in *that situation*. Maybe I get it because I'm bigger and can push you away from it, or maybe you remember the time I beat you up, so I give you stink eye and you back off from the bone.

A dog that pull on a leash is untrained. A dog that lunges after other dogs has arousal issues that need to be dealt with. Neither have to do with dominance.

It's a very mis-understood word.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Lucky is not a dominant dog. ...unless he is consistantly in a situation where he is given mixed messages.

Like the walk:

So at the start of the walk when I'm not quite ready, he pulls me . He knows that when he pulls, I fly and the message is..."I'm dominating this thing cause I make her move". When I get him beside me and the choke collar is correctly placed he gets a different message. "I'm not in control". But it doesn't hurt to do a quick lunge now and again because occassionally when off guard "I make her move"

By the end of the walk, we are both tired and neither one of us cares who dominates so it all goes well.

I need to put more effort into those walks...I know.

Lucky has been known to growl over food. But its not a "dominant" thing. More of a "reaction" thing.

Just random thoughts.

I do think there are dogs that see themselves as leaders of the "family" and I think having a clear and concise message in all situations are very important.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> Lucky is not a dominant dog. ...unless he is consistantly in a situation where he is given mixed messages.
> 
> Like the walk:
> 
> ...


Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to argue...

Here's my question: Regarding the above statement, how do you *know* that the dog cares in the least that he's making YOU move? (Brilliant animal trainer Bob Bailey brilliantly reminds his trainer students, "You don't KNOW what the animal is thinking - just pay attention to the behavior you're observing.") I'd sooner say that the dog doesn't care what's happening with US, they just want to get where they want to go, and if exerting pressure on the leash gets them where they want to go, *that's* the point. I think it's a huge leap to assume that the dog is aware that his pulling causes us to "fly" and therefore, the dog can dominate us. Dogs do what works. Period. Doing what works doesn't make you dominant. In the wild, it allows you to survive. In pet homes, it gets you what you want. It's up to us, the ones with the bigger brains, to successfully manipulate what will "work" in a dog's environment.

To look at it in human terms... When a child does what "works," for example, throwing a tantrum in the middle of the cereal isle b/c he wants Sugar Smacks and you want to buy healthy cereal... and in an effort to stop the tantrum, which has led to stares by fellow shoppers, that parent says, "OK fine. We'll get the Sugar Smacks," is that child being dominant? I'd bet very few people would say so. They'd say the child is being a brat or is spoiled. The child is doing what WORKS.

It seems to me that people are so awfully quick to label a dog as "dominant" when he does what works... when in reality, in most cases, he just hasn't been truly taught to do things differently. The fact that the "Dirty D Word" is used practically in every-other-breath on mainstream TV training shows has only made it worse.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It couldn't possibly be that the dog is excited or wants to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, right?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> It couldn't possibly be that the dog is excited or wants to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, right?


Ahhhhh... the Law of Parsimony, or Occam's Razor. I often want to tatoo this on my clients' foreheads!


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

that's always a problem when humans work with animals: we tend to interpret the animal's behavior in terms of our OWN (human) motivation, not the animal's motivation. That leads to misinterpretations all the time. I've seen it with dog people, horse people, and any other animals I've wroked with.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> It couldn't possibly be that the dog is excited or wants to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, right?


Oh yes, its all about excitement. My point is that Lucky feels like he has control of the situation. Not because he's "thinking" he has control but because when he lunges I lunge with him and instinctively...he's got the lead. Perhaps he's thinking that I'm giving permission?

(When he's bone tired all his "dominence" disappears....)


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to argue...
> 
> Here's my question: Regarding the above statement, how do you *know* that the dog cares in the least that he's making YOU move? (Brilliant animal trainer Bob Bailey brilliantly reminds his trainer students, "You don't KNOW what the animal is thinking - just pay attention to the behavior you're observing.") I'd sooner say that the dog doesn't care what's happening with US, they just want to get where they want to go, and if exerting pressure on the leash gets them where they want to go, *that's* the point. I think it's a huge leap to assume that the dog is aware that his pulling causes us to "fly" and therefore, the dog can dominate us. Dogs do what works. Period. Doing what works doesn't make you dominant. In the wild, it allows you to survive. In pet homes, it gets you what you want. It's up to us, the ones with the bigger brains, to successfully manipulate what will "work" in a dog's environment.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you. I just think that whenever a dog believes he has control that is dominent behavior. Lucky is not a dominent personality dog...meaning he isn't showing himself as a "leader' of our family. I also don't think dogs "think" they just do what seems natural.

My point is that when I have control he follows my lead. But sometimes he's bigger then I am. When my husband walks him, he doesn't pull. My husband is like a rock. He don't move.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> I don't disagree with you. I just think that whenever a dog believes he has control that is dominent behavior. Lucky is not a dominent personality dog...meaning he isn't showing himself as a "leader' of our family. I also don't think dogs "think" they just do what seems natural.
> 
> My point is that when I have control he follows my lead. But sometimes he's bigger then I am. When my husband walks him, he doesn't pull. My husband is like a rock. He don't move.


"Whenever a dog believes he has control..." How can we know what a dog believes? I just think we put way too much effort into trying to decide what the dog "believes" or "thinks" at any given moment. The reality is that we really don't *know* and when we try and figure it out, we're doing so using our human filters, which often process things differently than dogs would anyway.

The dominant dog wants something or wants to keep the other animal from having it. So answer me this: If you actually set out to train your "dominant dog" to walk nicely and not pull on a leash, and he no longer does, is he no longer dominant? Has that percieved personality trait suddenly disappeared? (Lucky's mom - not talking about you and your dog specifically here - particulary b/c you said you don't see your dog as having a dominant personality... I'm more referring to the people who belive their dog is dominant b/c, for example, it pulls on a leash.)


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> "Whenever a dog believes he has control..." How can we know what a dog believes? I just think we put way too much effort into trying to decide what the dog "believes" or "thinks" at any given moment. The reality is that we really don't *know* and when we try and figure it out, we're doing so using our human filters, which often process things differently than dogs would anyway.
> 
> The dominant dog wants something or wants to keep the other animal from having it. So answer me this: If you actually set out to train your "dominant dog" to walk nicely and not pull on a leash, and he no longer does, is he no longer dominant? Has that percieved personality trait suddenly disappeared? (Lucky's mom - not talking about you and your dog specifically here - particulary b/c you said you don't see your dog as having a dominant personality... I'm more referring to the people who belive their dog is dominant b/c, for example, it pulls on a leash.)


Okkkkkkkk I didn't mean "believe". They react to stimuli. In my opinion anyway. Guess no one really knows the ins and outs of dogs. We can just make good assumptions.


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## hmsalazar (Feb 19, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to argue...
> 
> Here's my question: Regarding the above statement, how do you *know* that the dog cares in the least that he's making YOU move? (Brilliant animal trainer Bob Bailey brilliantly reminds his trainer students, "You don't KNOW what the animal is thinking - just pay attention to the behavior you're observing.") I'd sooner say that the dog doesn't care what's happening with US, they just want to get where they want to go, and if exerting pressure on the leash gets them where they want to go, *that's* the point. I think it's a huge leap to assume that the dog is aware that his pulling causes us to "fly" and therefore, the dog can dominate us. Dogs do what works. Period. Doing what works doesn't make you dominant. In the wild, it allows you to survive. In pet homes, it gets you what you want. It's up to us, the ones with the bigger brains, to successfully manipulate what will "work" in a dog's environment.
> 
> ...


I do think the child is dominant, in fact he is fighting with you with his brain, maybe he is not the stongest but he has other weapons, his intellect and his cuttines. it's not that they or the dogs are doing something bad, its just natural. Everyone wants power, someones more than others. We have a more developed brain so we can control more our natural instincts, but that dont mean they are not there. i'm not sure Cesar way is the best but he have a point with problem dogs, maybe someone could do it in a better way, but that dont mean he is doing something bad, his technique is just a little primitive


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I hadn't even read your post, Lucky's Mom  I had just responded to the title of the thread lol


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I hadn't even read your post, Lucky's Mom  I had just responded to the title of the thread lol


That's funny! Well in was an inadvertently well placed post.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> Lucky is not a dominent personality dog...meaning he isn't showing himself as a "leader' of our family.


But again: leadership and dominance are two very different things. Dominant animals don't usually lead, and leaders are not usually dominant.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Pudden said:


> But again: leadership and dominance are two very different things. Dominant animals don't usually lead, and leaders are not usually dominant.


Dominant animals see themselves as the leader. That is why they behave as they do. 

And if you are a leader then you are the dominent entity....


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> Dominant animals see themselves as the leader. That is why they behave as they do.
> 
> And if you are a leader then you are the dominent entity....


That's only if you're using dominance in the way that humans relate it to other humans. It's different in the non-human animal world! Social Dominance is all about a social relationsip that's established by repeated agonostic interactions between members of the group. The "dominant" animal in the group is the one who wins more of the specific, contextual interactions. "Subordinate" and "Dominant" are roles, not personality traits.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

LOL...Shadow sometimes walks in front of me because his legs are longer than mine. If he's at my side and takes two steps forward, he's already ahead of me. My stride ain't what it used to be.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

Thinking that a dog believes it is 'dominant' is TOTALLY putting a human perspective on dog behaviour. It is not thinking like a dog in the slightest. Dogs do not view us as the same species...their rules and hierarchy do not apply across species. They know a dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, a cow is a cow...a dog wouldn't try and 'dominate' a human any more than it would attempt to dominate a cow. If you allow a dog to persist in a unwanted behaviour then the dog has figured out what works to get the outcome it wants...and nothing more sinister than that Im afraid. Humans love to add a bit of drama to a situation!!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

This is from dictionary.com and what I mean by dominant:

_occupying or being in a commanding or elevated position._

Lucky is dominant on walks. But he as a rule isn't in most situations. Some dogs are dominant in all situations.

Dogs can be trained to a non-dominant position.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> This is from dictionary.com and what I mean by dominant:
> 
> _occupying or being in a commanding or elevated position._
> 
> ...


All I'm saying is that it's defined differently when referring to a social heirarchy.

But even if it wasn't, how does being in front represent a "commanding" position?


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> All I'm saying is that it's defined differently when referring to a social heirarchy.
> 
> But even if it wasn't, how does being in front represent a "commanding" position?


 I don't think it does really.....gosh have we agreed all this time?

I was just saying earlier that I have more control when he's beside me.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> I don't think it does really.....gosh have we agreed all this time?
> 
> I was just saying earlier that I have more control when he's beside me.


Whoops... I might have mistaken you for one of the posters who mentioned something about walking in front = being dominant. Sorry. I was just trying to point out that IMO, using the human definition of dominance is somewhat irrelevant when talking about dogs b/c of how different the term is defined when looking at social hierarchies.

I think with Quiz... I don't know that I'll say I have more "control" when he is next to me... but I do have more attention and focus vs. when he's out in front. I don't care if he's in front of me so long as he maintains a loose leash.


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## hmsalazar (Feb 19, 2009)

Emma&Tilly said:


> Thinking that a dog believes it is 'dominant' is TOTALLY putting a human perspective on dog behaviour. It is not thinking like a dog in the slightest. Dogs do not view us as the same species...their rules and hierarchy do not apply across species. They know a dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, a cow is a cow...a dog wouldn't try and 'dominate' a human any more than it would attempt to dominate a cow. If you allow a dog to persist in a unwanted behaviour then the dog has figured out what works to get the outcome it wants...and nothing more sinister than that Im afraid. Humans love to add a bit of drama to a situation!!


I think shepherd dogs dominate the sheeps.


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

hmsalazar said:


> I think shepherd dogs dominate the sheeps.


A working sheep dog has been highly trained and it's natural herding instincts have been shaped. The dog is doing the job because that is what it has been trained to do, hopefully through praise and reward not because it thinks it is 'above' the sheep in some sort of weird sheep/canine pack heirarchy!


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## hmsalazar (Feb 19, 2009)

Emma&Tilly said:


> A working sheep dog has been highly trained and it's natural herding instincts have been shaped. The dog is doing the job because that is what it has been trained to do, hopefully through praise and reward not because it thinks it is 'above' the sheep in some sort of weird sheep/canine pack heirarchy!


humans try to dominate other animals becouse they think they are superior (just see a circus), we also try to dominate other humans becaouse we want to have control over them (just look at most parents and also at most childrens). i cant see why you people think this natural behavior as something wrong, you just can dominate yourself to dont try to dominate others, or something.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

hmsalazar said:


> I think shepherd dogs dominate the sheeps.


Actually, herding is a twist on a dog's hunting instincts. They've been shaped over time so that they corner and corral the "prey" but do not attack it. This has nothing to do with any sort of dominance, just natural predator/prey behavior carefully altered through selective breeding and training.

Julie and Jersey


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hmsalazar said:


> humans try to dominate other animals becouse they think they are superior (just see a circus), we also try to dominate other humans becaouse we want to have control over them (just look at most parents and also at most childrens). i cant see why you people think this natural behavior as something wrong, you just can dominate yourself to dont try to dominate others, or something.


Sure, the idea of humans dominating animals goes all the way back to the bible... man has dominion over all the animals. Sure. We "dominate" animals by our human definition of the word. Still, however, according to a social heirarchy, the definition of dominant is very different.

Animals see things differently.

My dog thinks a wonderful greeting is to sniff another member of his species' butt. I, on the other hand, see things differently. I'd rather shake your hand than sniff your butt. I think most people would agree that that's a welcome difference between how we (humans) view things as compared to them (our dogs).

Why is it that people have such a hard time accepting that the term "dominant" is different in another species?


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I have a hard time with assuming dogs are monsters with a plot to dominate humans, and every time a dog breathes or walks or farts it's part of his evil plan. A lot of people seriously seem to think that way.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I have a hard time with assuming dogs are monsters with a plot to dominate humans, and every time a dog breathes or walks or farts it's part of his evil plan. A lot of people seriously seem to think that way.



I dunno, Dillon's farts can be pretty evil... :yuck:


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

That's true! LMAO

Whippet farts could be a plot to intoxicate humans and rule earth.

Next time Rigby moves off the sofa (uh oh, I hope he doesn't think he's dominant because I let him sit on the couch and sleep in my bed) I'll have to ask him.


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## hmsalazar (Feb 19, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Sure, the idea of humans dominating animals goes all the way back to the bible... man has dominion over all the animals. Sure. We "dominate" animals by our human definition of the word. Still, however, according to a social heirarchy, the definition of dominant is very different.
> 
> Animals see things differently.
> 
> ...


dominant is different becouse in humans is more complex, but the two species will try to control the way things happens, it dont matters how you do it but the results (we say hello different but we both say it). And if dogs are not dominats with humans then why so many experts manage that term?

When a parent try to dominate his children he dont whant to kill him. 

Dogs dont try to rull the wold, thats cats.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hmsalazar said:


> And if dogs are not dominats with humans then why so many experts manage that term?
> 
> When a parent try to dominate his children he dont whant to kill him.
> 
> .


Define "experts." Most of the "experts" I follow (PhDs in Applied Animal Behavior) share the opinion Ive stated regarding dominance in social heirarchies. If you're referring to CM/TDW... in my opinion, a well-marketed television show does not make one an "expert" in animal behavior. I completely disagree with his usual asessment of dogs being "dominant" b/c they walk in front, pull on the leash, guard their food, etc.

And when you say that when a parent wants to dominate his children, he doesn't want to kill them... is the implication there that when dogs try to dominate another animal, they DO want to kill it? If so, I have to say I think that's a gross generalization lacking in scientific fact.

Dominance and aggression are two totally different concepts.


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## Pudden (Dec 28, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> We "dominate" animals by our human definition of the word. Still, however, according to a social heirarchy, the definition of dominant is very different.
> 
> Why is it that people have such a hard time accepting that the term "dominant" is different in another species?


I agree - That's the key of the whole misunderstanding: that in human everyday use, "dominance" means something very different than in the language of biology and animal behavior. Everybody's just sort-of talking past each other...


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## hmsalazar (Feb 19, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Define "experts." Most of the "experts" I follow (PhDs in Applied Animal Behavior) share the opinion Ive stated regarding dominance in social heirarchies. If you're referring to CM/TDW... in my opinion, a well-marketed television show does not make one an "expert" in animal behavior. I completely disagree with his usual asessment of dogs being "dominant" b/c they walk in front, pull on the leash, guard their food, etc.
> 
> And when you say that when a parent wants to dominate his children, he doesn't want to kill them... is the implication there that when dogs try to dominate another animal, they DO want to kill it? If so, I have to say I think that's a gross generalization lacking in scientific fact.
> 
> Dominance and aggression are two totally different concepts.


Its not just Cesar, there are a lot of other that uses the term but as a lot of social studies, there should be a lot of teories.

i'm not saying dogs want to kill us, its becouse someone said that if dogs are dominats they want to kill us.

i agree, dominance is not aggression, its control.


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