# Explain dog food quality to me...



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Okay, since I am obviously not understanding how to pick a good dog food for my dog I want people to explain things to me using the formulas below. Theres a couple "quality" brands and a couple "crap" brands. If you know the names of the companies that make them dont post it here please. Im keeping those out in hopes to not have anyone judge based on specific brand. Break them down for me and explain why or why not one is better then the other. Also, which out of the bunch you would feed. 

*FIRST*
Kangaroo, Red Lentils, Green Lentils, Peas, Sunflower Oil(Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a Source of Vitamin E), Flaxseed, Pea Fiber, Dicalcium Phosphate, Natural Flavors, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, DL Methionine, Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Cacium Iodate), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid) 
Crude Protein (Min) 21% Crude Fat (Min) 11% Crude Fiber (Max) 6.5% Moisture (Max) 10% Vitamin E (Min) 300 IU/kg Linoleic Acid (Min) 1.1% Omega-3 Faty Acids (Min) 1% Ash-5.34%

*SECOND*
Boneless salmon, salmon meal, herring meal, whiteﬁsh meal*, green peas, red lentils, whole potato, boneless herring, boneless ﬂounder, herring oil, ﬁeld beans, canola oil, sun-cured alfalfa, pea ﬁbre, natural ﬁsh ﬂavour, whole apples, whole pears, sweet potato, pumpkin, butternut squash, parsnips, carrots, spinach greens, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, chicory root, juniper berries, angelica root, marigold ﬂowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, lavender, rosemary
Protein .....................................33 %
Fat ..........................................15 %
Fiber ...................................... 3.5 %
Calcium .................................. 1.4 %
Phosphorus ............................. 1.1 %
Omega-6................................. 2.2 %
Omega-3 ................................ 0.4 %
Glucosamine ....................800 mg/kg
Chondroitin .......................500 mg/kg
Carbohydrate ...........................29 %
Ash content from what I gather from searching online is 7.5%

*THIRD
*Beef, lamb meal, potatoes, egg, sunflower oil, buffalo, lamb, venison, beef cartilage, herring oil, natural flavors, apples, carrots, tomatoes, alfalfa sprouts, garlic, cottage cheese, potassium chloride, vitamins/minerals, ascorbic acid, dried chicory root, direct-fed microbials, vitamin E supplement, lecithin, rosemary extract.
Guaranteed analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 42 % 
Crude Fat (min) 22 % 
Crude Fiber (max) 2.5 % 
Moisture (max) 10 % 
Linoleic Acid (Omega-6 Fatty Acid) (min) 1.2 % 
Carbohydrates NFE (max) 15 % 
Vitamin E (min) 300 IU/kg 
Vitamin C (min) 500 mg/kg 
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min) 0.4 % 
Docosahexaenoic Acid (min) 0.1 % 
Total Microorganisms (min) 90,000,000 CFU/lb
Ash is 8.7% according to google searchs

*FOURTH*
Lamb Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Ground Yellow Corn, Ground Whole Wheat, Chicken Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat (preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Citric Acid, and Rosemary Extract), Corn Germ Meal (Dry Milled), Brewers Dried Yeast, Fish Meal, Wheat Germ Meal, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, DL-Methionine, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, d-Pantothenate Acid, Niacin Supplement, Choline Chloride, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Biotin, Inositol, Dehydrated Kelp, SQMT (Polysaccharide Complexes of Zinc, Iron, Manganese, Copper and Cobalt), Potassium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Enzymes (Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Solubles, B. Subtillus Fermentation Solubles); and DFMs (Enterococcus Faecium and Lactobacillus Acidophilus 

Guaranteed Analysis: 
Crude Protein (minimum) 23% 
Crude Fat (minimum) 12% 
Moisture (maximum) 10% 
Crude Fiber (maximum) 3.5% 
Calcium (minimum) 1.5% 
Phosphorus (minimum) 1%
Not sure the ash content on this one

*FIFTH
*Ocean Fish, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Fish Meal (source of fish oil), Ground Whole Grain Barley, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Egg Product, Fish Digest, Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Brewers Dried Yeast, Potassium Chloride, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (source of Vitamin B1), Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), DL-Methionine. 
Guaranteed analysis:
Crude Protein not less than 23.00% 
Crude Fat not less than 13.00% 
Crude Fiber not more than 5.00% 
Moisture not more than 10.00% 
Vitamin E not less than 140 IU/kg 
Omega-6 Fatty Acids not less than 2.0%* 
Omega-3 Fatty Acids not less than 0.4%*
Not sure on Ash content on this one

*SIXTH*
Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Whole Barley, Whole Brown Rice, Canola Meal, Chicken & Turkey Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Flaxseed, Natural flavours, Sodium Chloride, Herring Oil(source of DHA/EPA), Potassium Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Taurine, Choline Chloride, Mannanoligosaccharides (MOS), Chicory Inulin(FOS), Yucca Schidigera Extract
Crude Protein 22.3 % min. Crude Fat 12.27 % min. Crude Fiber 3.39 % max. Moisture 8 % max. Omega-6 Fatty Acids 2.27 % min. Omega-3 Fatty Acids 0.33 % min. Crude Ash 8.08 % max.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Briefly. 
Four, five and six. Too high in grains, not enough protein.
One--Not interested in feeding Kangaroo meat to my dog.
Third--Too much meat, too high in protein IMHO. Could cause digestive issues. 
Second--Would be my choice of the ones you list. 33% protein is about right. Lots of fish. Would like to see some chicken, but has veggies and fruits. No grains. Seems the best balanced.


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## RShea (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm new to this I would say the first one I'd mainly peas... The second and third one seem pretty high protein idk the effects of that. The fourth and fifth look alright but a little corn wheat heavy many dogs are alergic to those. The sixth looks like what would be my choice just from what I have read. I am far from an expert and am interested in other peoples thoughts on this


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

Wow...

First, don't feel comfortable feeding kangaroo meat
Second, prefer chicken, turkey and beef to fish
Third, too high in protein. My dogs are not performance dogs and don't require that high protein. If I were engaged in sports as I was before, yes.
Fourth, two out of the first five ingredients is meat based, and the second meat ingredient is the fifth one listed
Fifth, would't want fish, prefer chicken, turkey, and beef
Sixth, one out of the first five ingredients is meat

Honestly, if I were at a store and these were my choices, I'd go online.

Here is mine:
Turkey
Chicken
Chicken Meal
Whole Grain Barley
Whole Grain Brown Rice
Whole Grain Oats
Peas
Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols a Source of Vitamin E)
Pea Fiber
Natural Flavors
Flaxseed
Apples
Eggs
Blueberries
Pumpkin
Tomatoes
Sunflower Oil
Salt
Potassium Chloride
Carrots
Pears
Menhaden Oil
Dried Chicory Root Extract
Cottage Cheese
Green Beans
Parsnips
Alfalfa Sprouts
Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate)
Ascorbic Acid
Glucosamine Hydrochloride
Chondroitin Sulfate
Vitamin E Supplement
Vitamins (Betaine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Biotin, Folic Acid)
Direct Fed Microbials (Dried Enterococcus faecium, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus, Dried Lactobacilus casei)
Rosemary Extract

Crude Protein (Min)	25.0 %
Crude Fat (Min)	14.0 %
Crude Fiber (Max)	5.0 %
Moisture (Max)	10.0 %
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6 Fatty Acid) (Min)	2.5 %
Calcium (Min)	0.6 %
Phosphorus (Min)	0.5 %
Vitamin E (Min)	300.0 IU/kg
Glucosamine (Min)	600.0 mg/kg
Chondriotin Sulfate (Min)	500.0 mg/kg
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C) (Min)	500.0 mg/kg
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (Min)	0.5 %
EPA+DHA (Min)	0.1 %
Total Microorganisms (Min)	900,000.0 CFU/lb

Calorie Content
3743.0 kcal/kg
386.0 kcal/cup


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Whats wrong with Kangaroo meat? I was considering that one for mine because its single protein and it has no oatmeal or potatoes so it could help me rule out what hes allergic to better then what hes currently on


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I thought he was doing well with what he was on????? To me there is much more to it than an ingredient list.Having a complete nutritional analysis would help, but even then I'd want to know who is manufacturing it and what their track record is. I'd also want to know where there ingredients are sourced from.... including their vitamin/mineral pack...not just where the middle man is but where they are actually sourced from. THEN, it would depend on how an individual dog does on a particular product. It could, on paper, be the world's most perfect food but if it doesn't agree with your dog then it's a no go. I would really suggest you read Dr. Marion Nestle's books on the pet food industry.... alot of nitty gritty info there on an industry that, in many cases, is smoke and mirrors.

http://www.foodpolitics.com/books/

http://www.foodpolitics.com/about/


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I thought he was doing well with what he was on????? To me there is much more to it than an ingredient list.Having a complete nutritional analysis would help, but even then I'd want to know who is manufacturing it and what their track record is. I'd also want to know where there ingredients are sourced from.... including their vitamin/mineral pack...not just where the middle man is but where they are actually sourced from. THEN, it would depend on how an individual dog does on a particular product. It could, on paper, be the world's most perfect food but if it doesn't agree with your dog then it's a no go. I would really suggest you read Dr. Marion Nestle's books on the pet food industry.... alot of nitty gritty info there on an industry that, in many cases, is smoke and mirrors.


He is doing well digestion wise, but im noticing hes itching more and still is getting infections. Ive stopped ALL supplements other then his joint meds, soloxine and eye meds for 2 weeks. So hes JUST getting the Acana hes on, soloxine, joint meds and eye meds. No treats...kibble will be used as treats. If that does nothing, I need to find a more basic kibble which is why I was looking into the kangaroo formula


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## Heart O'Gold (Jul 31, 2012)

It is so hard to find a really good food that is also really good for your dog. I always fed Maddie Eukanuba because I thought it was the best food. (It sponsors the Westminster dog show, so I thought they all must feed it to their dogs.) Well, obviously not. Anyway, she had an ongoing ear infection problem and my vet had suggested a switch of foods. He said that grain free can be good but that a lot of times dogs are allergic to the protein source i.e. chicken etc. He suggested a novel protein food that she had not been exposed to. Like kangaroo etc. Unfortunately, she became very ill with kidney disease shortly after this visit and I never implemented that food change so I have no results. For Bentley I have chosen to feed Wellness but I am constantly wondering if it is the right choice. Good luck with your search. Also, probiotics might help with skin issues as they can be closely related to poor digestion. Just a thought.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

A1Malinois said:


> Whats wrong with Kangaroo meat? I was considering that one for mine because its single protein and it has no oatmeal or potatoes so it could help me rule out what hes allergic to better then what hes currently on


Well I'm not keen on the idea of kangaroos being used for meat. It's a personal preference. Or non preference.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

My brother's Dane is allergic to almost every source of protein except Kangaroo meat. He went through so many different kinds before he tried it. Joplin is doing wonderful on it, finally gaining weight, no more itching or ear infections. Not saying it's what I would feed unless I had no other choice!


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## Vinnie's Mom (Jun 9, 2012)

I don't have a problem with Kangaroo meat if hunting them is needed to control the population such as Deer hunting.

This is what I'm feeding Vinnie:

Ingredients:

Chicken, Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Brown Rice Flour, Tomato Pomace, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Natural Flavor, Flaxseed, Dried Chicory Root, Dried Carrots, Dried Spinach, Dried Sweet Potato, Dried Pumpkin, Dried Blueberries, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, L-ascorbyl-polyphosphate, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Minerals (Zinc Sulfate, Ferric Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Choline Chloride

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein Not less than 24.0%
Crude Fat Not less than 13.0%
Crude Fiber mg/kg Not more than 5.0%
Moisture Not less than 10%
Calcium Not less than 1.2%
Phosphorus Not less than .90%
Potassium Not less than 0.60%
Zinc Not less than 175 mg
Selenium Not less than .30 mg/kg
Vitamin A Not less than 20,000 mg/kg
Vitamin E Not less than 200 mg/kg
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* Not less than 3.0%
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* Not less than 0.70%
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)*Not less than 200 IU/KG
Beta carotene*Not less than 5.0
Lycopene* Not less than 1.0 mg/kg


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

None of the above?

#1 is too low in fat

#2, the protein/fat content is more in the ballpark, but the hippie-dippie herbal additives would send me packing. Chicory root in particular is a turn off to me because it is used to boost fiber numbers without providing the same fiber types that whole grains would. It's a source of inulin, not real dietary fiber. I also don't like the all-fish protein unless the dog needs it for allergies. The use of peas as a main starch puts me off too, but not so badly.

#3 is what I'd pick if I had to, but the protein is too high and it also uses chicory to get around the fact that it doesn't have other, better fiber sources.

#4 comes in second place for me, but the protein is a little too low, and the fat is way too low. This is clearly one of the foods you're designating as "crap," but I'd be fine feeding this to my dog if I ran out of their regular food.

#5 doesn't have enough fat, has the random fish protein source, but it's not so bad

#6, not enough fat, chicory

I'd rather have a food from company #4 with over 25% protein and over 15% fat.

I'm convinced that a ton of coat and skin problems people think are food allergies are actually from flea exposure (even with a topical, they can get a few bites in before they die), or could be solved by more grooming (too much dead undercoat+moisture causes problems). Some are clearly from food, but only a small percentage.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I have an allergy dog, he's been tested and has a host of environmental and food allergies. My vet said it can take up to 90 days after a food change for the body to stop reacting to the previous food. You have to have patience to stick something out--2 weeks cutting out supplements but then you added in another food--with all of the changes who knows what's affecting Lincoln. Moreover, you're basing his issues on food--why not allergy test him? With all of the money you're spending on new food, supplements, vet visits--you could just test the boy. Also, if it's environmental based, it won't matter what food he is on, he's going to have issues unless you take action on that front.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Based solely on labels, these are my personal opinions based on how I feed:

1. If I had a dog with allergies I would try it, although it is much lower in protein than what I like, so I'd end up finding an additional protein source to add to it

2. I'd consider

3. I'd consider

4. I don't have a problem feeding rice, corn, or wheat, but don't want all three to be listed in the top four ingredients. 

5. to start with, "ocean fish" is too generic for me, like listing "poultry" or "meat"

6. similar to number four, I'd pass on a food where three of the top four ingredients were oatmeal, barley, and rice, particularly looking at the lower protein levels.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

btw, I've yet to find the "perfect" kibble I'm happy with, I'll usually keep a bag on hand but add a lot of "human" food to it.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Okay here are the foods.

1. California Natural Kangaroo Grain Free
2. Acana Pacifica
3. Evo Red Meat
4. Eagle Pack Natural Lamb/Rice
5. Eukanuba Sensitive Skin
5. Lifetime Lamb/Oatmeal


As for allergy testing, its not accurate.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Meal, Whole Grain Oats, Chicken, Whole Grain Rye, Pea Fibre, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, soruce of Vitamin E), Flaxseed, Egg product, Carrots, Apples, Alfalfa Meal, Salmon Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, source of Vitamin E), Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Broccoli, Bok Choy, Cabbage, Blueberries, L-Lysine, Choline Chloride, Salt, DL-Methionine, Fructooligosaccharides, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Extract, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Pineapple, Dried Trichoderma Longibrachiatum Fermentation Extract, Dried Rhizopus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium Bifidum Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Niacin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Ferrous Sulphate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Sulphate, Zinc Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Sulphate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Magnesium Oxide


That's what Tucker eats. It's the only food that doesn't make him itchy or give him ear infections.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I can't chime in on the food issue, but my thought about skin issues (after you have dealt with choosing the food) would be to look to the environment to see if there is something aggravating the skin (carpeting, household cleaning materials, insects, lawn fertilizers or insecticides used outdoors, etc). Maybe you have already ruled all these out?


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

AM, given your dog's issues and your mistrust of the pet food industry, my advice to you would be to work with a board certified veterinary nutritionist on a homemade diet. It is the only way to truly rule out food allergies and you'd learn a lot in the process if you're open to it.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

lgnutah said:


> I can't chime in on the food issue, but my thought about skin issues (after you have dealt with choosing the food) would be to look to the environment to see if there is something aggravating the skin (carpeting, household cleaning materials, insects, lawn fertilizers or insecticides used outdoors, etc). Maybe you have already ruled all these out?


I use vinegar to mop my floors, I use just a damp rag to dust, I do not use any carpet powders for the area rugs. I changed laundry soap and fabric softener (eventually cutting the softener out). Its year round so lawn fertilizer isnt the issue (In Ontario its illegal to use pesticide so our lawn people use all natural stuff). Other then a couple small area rugs our house is tile/hardwood. The only thing I can think of it the cats but he was itchy even before I got my first cat.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Garfield said:


> AM, given your dog's issues and your mistrust of the pet food industry, my advice to you would be to work with a board certified veterinary nutritionist on a homemade diet. It is the only way to truly rule out food allergies and you'd learn a lot in the process if you're open to it.


But she also doesn't trust vets.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> But she also doesn't trust vets.


With the price of meat here a home cooked diet would be over $100 a month. Not sure where the I dont trust vets comes from. I dont trust MOST vets. My current vet, I trust. As for a nutritionist I would be looking at $300 for just a consult and thats not in my budget right now. I am considering a raw diet at the moment.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> With the price of meat here a home cooked diet would be over $100 a month. Not sure where the I dont trust vets comes from. I dont trust MOST vets. My current vet, I trust. As for a nutritionist I would be looking at $300 for just a consult and thats not in my budget right now. I am considering a raw diet at the moment.


With the egregious cost of food you currently feed, the nutritionist route might be an ultimately cheaper, more efficient & effective, far less aggravating one. I know of places you can get a consult and recipe for less than $150.00 US. Heck, your vet can even work with the Balance It pros on a specialized diet for next to nothing. And if ingredient cost is a concern, most really problematic cases start on a single ingredient and it isn't meat.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Garfield said:


> With the egregious cost of food you currently feed, the nutritionist route might be an ultimately cheaper, more efficient & effective, far less aggravating one. I know of places you can get a consult and recipe for less than $150.00 US. Heck, your vet can even work with the Balance It pros on a specialized diet for next to nothing. And if ingredient cost is a concern, most really problematic cases start on a single ingredient and it isn't meat.


I am in Canada, prices over here are really expensive. For just a consult with an eye specialist its $287. Do I really need a nutritionist to feed a raw diet? I fed him a raw diet for over a year once before. Or are you talking home cooked like cooking the meat and veggies etc


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

A1Malinois said:


> Okay here are the foods.
> 
> 1. California Natural Kangaroo Grain Free
> 2. Acana Pacifica
> ...


Interesting. I said if my dogs were still competing I would feed #3, which is Evo. I used to feed them Evo Chicken and Turkey their whole lives while they did.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> I am in Canada, prices over here are really expensive. For just a consult with an eye specialist its $287. Do I really need a nutritionist to feed a raw diet? I fed him a raw diet for over a year once before. Or are you talking home cooked like cooking the meat and veggies etc


If you fed raw for over a year, why did you stop? Why are considering raw again? If raw worked before why did you stop and if it did not work why would you try it again?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

artbuc said:


> If you fed raw for over a year, why did you stop? Why are considering raw again? If raw worked before why did you stop and if it did not work why would you try it again?


I stopped because the itching started back up a bit. But the main reason was because he was having bouts of coccidia and giardia and the vet told me it was because I fed raw. He was also pooping out whole bones undigested but have since learned it was likely because I was over feeding bone. The last 4 months on raw with him was a living heck. He did so well up until that point which is why I am seriously considering trying it again to see. 

I can get ground bone in chicken then obviously the boneless and organ meat but I dont think I feel comfortable feeding whole bones as of now.


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## Garfield (Apr 7, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> I am in Canada, prices over here are really expensive. For just a consult with an eye specialist its $287. Do I really need a nutritionist to feed a raw diet? I fed him a raw diet for over a year once before. Or are you talking home cooked like cooking the meat and veggies etc


You can use nutritionists in the U.S. (via phone/net) for far less than $300. That would be a surefire way to figure what, if any, of you pup's problems are diet related and you have ultimate quality control. I would not feed raw to a dog that has unspecified health issues. Plus homecooked'd be easier on his digestion. 

Other than that, I'd stick with Acana if he's doing okay on it.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

You seem to be on a roller coaster ride with him. You've changed his food several times. Have you made any notes when he has flare ups that could connect the timing to change in seasons? Since changing his food has not stopped the problem, I would be looking at environmental causes rather than food. Seasonal allergies could very well be the real culprit, not food.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Garfield said:


> You can use nutritionists in the U.S. (via phone/net) for far less than $300. That would be a surefire way to figure what, if any, of you pup's problems are diet related and you have ultimate quality control. I would not feed raw to a dog that has unspecified health issues. Plus homecooked'd be easier on his digestion.
> 
> Other than that, I'd stick with Acana if he's doing okay on it.


I believe raw is easier for them to digest because it is what they were made to digest no? Wolves in the wild do not cook their meat prior to consuming it. I will look into a phone consult with someone in the US



mylissyk said:


> You seem to be on a roller coaster ride with him. You've changed his food several times. Have you made any notes when he has flare ups that could connect the timing to change in seasons? Since changing his food has not stopped the problem, I would be looking at environmental causes rather than food. Seasonal allergies could very well be the real culprit, not food.


Honestly, his flare ups arent specific. He was doing fine till about a month or so ago then I noticed itching more. Then, when I got back the first week of October after going away for 4 days the friend at work who took him home for me to watch said she noticed some infections starting up. Those have been cleared but now theres more starting on his neck, lower neck, hackle area and lower back and above his tail. 

Im not sure what could be causing it in the environment? I assume because his paws get kinda scabby and red on the bottom and between his pads that hes walking in something bothering him? Will have to see how he is this winter. He is also digging into his ears and when I am not home I put the cone of shame on him because I cant trust he wont cause another hematoma that I really dont have money to fix at the moment.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Grasses, trees, fungi, dust mites, insects...there is a whole host of things in his environment that he can be (and probably is) reacting to.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Grasses, trees, fungi, dust mites, insects...there is a whole host of things in his environment that he can be (and probably is) reacting to.


I have a filter installed in my furnace/AC, I vacuum at least once a day, sometimes I skip a day. Im a very, VERY clean person therefore my house is...so if theres still mites hanging around which there will be regardless...not much I can do about that. As for everything else, unless I create some kind of bubble for him he will be exposed to everything. 

The only thing that gave him some relief was Vanectyl P but he started vomited blood after being on it long term so we suspected ulcers. Im to nervous to try them again...Benedryl does nothing, not sure what other over the counter ones I can try.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I have a filter installed in my furnace/AC, I vacuum at least once a day, sometimes I skip a day. Im a very, VERY clean person therefore my house is...so if theres still mites hanging around which there will be regardless...not much I can do about that. As for everything else, unless I create some kind of bubble for him he will be exposed to everything.
> 
> The only thing that gave him some relief was Vanectyl P but he started vomited blood after being on it long term so we suspected ulcers. Im to nervous to try them again...Benedryl does nothing, not sure what other over the counter ones I can try.


I'm not implying you're dirty.  My boy Sam is allergic to multiple items in each of those categories and while I won't win house keeper of the year, I certainly don't live in filth. I'm working with my vet who has a background in dermatology (but not a certified dermatologist) and she recommended I use a mattress cover (seals entire mattress) as dust mites love to live in beds. I also wipe his paws down when coming back in the house and have medicated wipes to use 2x's a day which has worked wonders for him. I didn't have the patience to stick out the allergy shots as he was still having major flair-ups with no improvement and it may take up to a year for those to work and don't work in all cases--but the testing helped me understand his triggers. My current vet doesn't put much stock in the food results of the test but absolutely finds credibility in the environmental piece. I've asked about a low dosage steroid (temaril-p), but she wants to use that as last resort. He's been on Atopica for almost a month now and I'm finally seeing improvement. It's expensive, but it appears to be working for him and if this keeps his ears from closing up form scar tissue, so be it. 

After all of the rambling, you can't just assume it's 100% food allergies.


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## Keragold (May 9, 2008)

I agree that you can't feed a food based solely on an ingredient panel without knowing the dog's situation first...lifestyle, age, activity level, age, and possible sensitivities. If you believe your dog has dietary sensitivities or allergies, why not try Dr. Jean Dodds' Nutriscan saliva test and find out for sure whether it is dietary or environmental or a combination?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

A1Malinois said:


> I believe raw is easier for them to digest because it is what they were made to digest no? Wolves in the wild do not cook their meat prior to consuming it. I will look into a phone consult with someone in the US
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Every type if pollen floating the air could be trigger. I would not be surprised if you checked to see if there were any weather changes while you were gone, and now, that you find the temperature changed, or it rained, or a front hot or cold blew through your area. Whatever blows in with those changes can cause allergic reaction, or a good wind can blow up existing pollen in the area.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> I'm not implying you're dirty. My boy Sam is allergic to multiple items in each of those categories and while I won't win house keeper of the year, I certainly don't live in filth. I'm working with my vet who has a background in dermatology (but not a certified dermatologist) and she recommended I use a mattress cover (seals entire mattress) as dust mites love to live in beds. I also wipe his paws down when coming back in the house and have medicated wipes to use 2x's a day which has worked wonders for him. I didn't have the patience to stick out the allergy shots as he was still having major flair-ups with no improvement and it may take up to a year for those to work and don't work in all cases--but the testing helped me understand his triggers. My current vet doesn't put much stock in the food results of the test but absolutely finds credibility in the environmental piece. I've asked about a low dosage steroid (temaril-p), but she wants to use that as last resort. He's been on Atopica for almost a month now and I'm finally seeing improvement. It's expensive, but it appears to be working for him and if this keeps his ears from closing up form scar tissue, so be it.
> 
> After all of the rambling, you can't just assume it's 100% food allergies.


No, I know you didnt imply I was dirty . I was just saying. I looked Atopica up at work and it would cost $100 for 14 days supply for a dog his size. Thats just not doable, though I am looking into a generic type. 



Keragold said:


> I agree that you can't feed a food based solely on an ingredient panel without knowing the dog's situation first...lifestyle, age, activity level, age, and possible sensitivities. If you believe your dog has dietary sensitivities or allergies, why not try Dr. Jean Dodds' Nutriscan saliva test and find out for sure whether it is dietary or environmental or a combination?


I did look into Dr Dodds panel, the issue there is it only tests for intolerance's. I want him tested for food allergies. Intolerance's aren't as severe as allergies. His poop and digestion are fine. His issues point towards an allergy of some sort.


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## Wagners Mom2 (Mar 20, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> I did look into Dr Dodds panel, the issue there is it only tests for intolerance's. I want him tested for food allergies. Intolerance's aren't as severe as allergies. His poop and digestion are fine. His issues point towards an allergy of some sort.


But, wouldn't that be a good start? Intolerances/allergies...ehhh....they are both problems and then at least you would have some kind of direction, yes?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

My boy tested positive for allergies to several things in the environment, including dust, molds, several types of grasses, even human dander (we're a great pair, I'm allergic to dogs and he's allergic to people). I put him on allergy shots and it made a world of difference. He went from constantly itching, scratching, tearing his coat out, covered in hot spots, to just the normal occasional dog scratch, with no more hot spots or missing hair.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

SheetsSM said:


> I'm not implying you're dirty. My boy Sam is allergic to multiple items in each of those categories and while I won't win house keeper of the year, I certainly don't live in filth. I'm working with my vet who has a background in dermatology (but not a certified dermatologist) and she recommended I use a mattress cover (seals entire mattress) as dust mites love to live in beds. I also wipe his paws down when coming back in the house and have medicated wipes to use 2x's a day which has worked wonders for him. I didn't have the patience to stick out the allergy shots as he was still having major flair-ups with no improvement and it may take up to a year for those to work and don't work in all cases--but the testing helped me understand his triggers. My current vet doesn't put much stock in the food results of the test but absolutely finds credibility in the environmental piece. I've asked about a low dosage steroid (temaril-p), but she wants to use that as last resort. He's been on Atopica for almost a month now and I'm finally seeing improvement. It's expensive, but it appears to be working for him and if this keeps his ears from closing up form scar tissue, so be it.
> 
> After all of the rambling, you can't just assume it's 100% food allergies.


Our allergy boy Barkley sounds like your Sam. His were due entirely to environmental pollens, not food allergies. One thing my vet mentioned that might be a trigger that is overlooked-- chemicals and flame retardants in carpeting and furniture.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

What flea and tick topical is he on?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> What flea and tick topical is he on?


He is on Revolution. I did notice for the month of October, he got an infection after being clear for a month about 4 days after applying the Revolution. But, he also had them even before I started to use Revolution. Or maybe he always had them and I just never noticed....I have no clue. I need flea and heart worm meds and it was just easier for me to give a topical. I never used to use flea stuff until 2 years ago. I used to use just interceptor.


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## Always51 (Feb 19, 2012)

I was wondering whats wrong with Kangaroo meat... Its a fabulous source of protein ,low in fat..good for people as well as dogs...In OZ its a really common meat for dogs and a good price..but I understand tho if its because they are wild animals and the thought of eating one is distasteful...and besides they are really cute 

I think you care a great deal about your dogs..I'm sorry that Lincoln has the issues he has.... it must drive you crazy..hope you find a solution..


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> He is on Revolution. I did notice for the month of October, he got an infection after being clear for a month about 4 days after applying the Revolution. But, he also had them even before I started to use Revolution. Or maybe he always had them and I just never noticed....I have no clue. I need flea and heart worm meds and it was just easier for me to give a topical. I never used to use flea stuff until 2 years ago. I used to use just interceptor.


I wasn't thinking of a reaction to the topical but rather that some fleas might be getting a few bites in before it kills them. That can set off atopic dermatitis.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I wasn't thinking of a reaction to the topical but rather that some fleas might be getting a few bites in before it kills them. That can set off atopic dermatitis.


But his are staph infections...is that the same as atopic dermatitis?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> But his are staph infections...is that the same as atopic dermatitis?


Sorry - atopic dermatitis was the wrong term. I meant atopy. Atopy is the allergic condition that causes itching which can cause sores that then become infected with staph.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Sorry - atopic dermatitis was the wrong term. I meant atopy. Atopy is the allergic condition that causes itching which can cause sores that then become infected with staph.


Okay but his infections dont start with sores. What happens is they start as little pea like lumps (sometimes the size of a pea sometimes smaller) in clusters, they feel kinda like boils. Then sometimes they break open from him itching and sometimes they go down on their own. We did a scrape and found staph. Now, I dunno if its a staph infection when its just a boil type thing under his skin or if its a staph infection after hes scratched it open...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> Okay but his infections dont start with sores. What happens is they start as little pea like lumps (sometimes the size of a pea sometimes smaller) in clusters, they feel kinda like boils. Then sometimes they break open from him itching and sometimes they go down on their own. We did a scrape and found staph. Now, I dunno if its a staph infection when its just a boil type thing under his skin or if its a staph infection after hes scratched it open...


Or an insect bite that he scratches open?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Or an insect bite that he scratches open?


I guess thats a possibility but he would be getting but all over his body many times...I wonder if next year I should switch up his flea stuff to see if its that. I really do not think its the food at all causing an issue so I may just put him on one of the regular Acana versions since theres no point in spending on the LID diet?


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

I wish raw feeding here were I am only cost $100 a month here raw feeding cost me $324 a month for 2 golden retrievers,1 whippet and a chihuahua. I did the wrong thing and put them back on kibble, now my whippet isn't really keen on kibble, my chihuahua has stomach issues, my goldens will eat almost anything. Tommorrow there going back on raw.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I guess thats a possibility but he would be getting but all over his body many times...I wonder if next year I should switch up his flea stuff to see if its that. I really do not think its the food at all causing an issue so I may just put him on one of the regular Acana versions since theres no point in spending on the LID diet?


Fleas are apparently responsible for a huge proportion of atopy cases, even when dogs are on a topical. It's certainly worth keeping it on your radar, at the very least. Those lumps you describe could be some kind of hives from the flea dermatitis.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Fleas are apparently responsible for a huge proportion of atopy cases, even when dogs are on a topical. It's certainly worth keeping it on your radar, at the very least. Those lumps you describe could be some kind of hives from the flea dermatitis.


Hmmmmm yeah, I wonder if theres a way to repell the fleas from him. I do notice some small scabs on his neck. But I have yet to see a flea, I shall go get my flea comb for sh*ts and giggles. 

The other thing I was considering was testing him for an IgA deficiency. If he lacks that, then really, any food hes on he will still have this issue? The test is only about $60 and come winter (december is when snow flies here) if hes still itching etc, then I can test for that.


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## GabeBabe (Oct 1, 2010)

This is a huge subject.

IMO - I think based on your follow up notes that your pup has medically obvious symptoms. (Itching and infections). A food should be appropriate for your specific dog. Not all dog foods are good for all dogs. You can buy the best dog food out there but if your dog reacts to one or more of the ingredients it is a moot issue. 

If you are trying to eliminate health issues through dog food then I feel that less is best. If you use fewer ingredients, provided you begin with a clean slate - a healthy dog - then you can see reactions to additional ingredients as you add them.

Sometimes skin issues can come from too much omega 6, so going to an omega 3 would be good. Sometimes it could be grains - then going grainless is better. Sometimes there may be issues with poultry - then a lamb or beef may be better.

Personally, my dog does best on raw without starches (potato/rice). I think this digests better and keeps the intestine clean. I think the immune system gets strengthened when food is digested and the intestine can break down nutrients. If you have foods that are more easily digested like meat, veggies, fruit, the body can use enzymes to break down the food for easier usage whereby nutrients are absorbed and utilized. 

Some dogs do fine on starches, mine does not. He does best on raw, with supplements of probiotics and digestive enzymes, coconut oil and omega 3 from my vet.

I use a raw food with ground veggies and limited fruit - apples. Lots of people do their own raw recipe and those are posted on the forum. I also use a dehydrated raw with more limited ingredients. He does good on both.

I think kangaroo meat would be considered a novel protein and would be saved for a time when maybe other proteins don't work and it remains as an alternative choice.

IMO - the dog foods you mentioned - I would not use any of them. 

Trial and error based on your dog's health.


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## GabeBabe (Oct 1, 2010)

*skin issues*

I went back farther on this post and realized you were already talking about skin issues.

When my dog had an 'allergy' flareup (never did the testing as his skin cleared) we did two baths a week. Use both an antibacterial and anti fungal shampoo to get both issues. So much stuff gets on them from being outside, rolling in the grass, digging in leaves, etc. Could be seasonal - comes and goes depending on what is out there.

I also got some information through the Great Dane Lady/First Choice Naturals using their 'Fillin' in the Wholes', the OX-e drops (which you put in the food, water, and make a spray for their skin) - you can do the same with apple cider vinegar but, I found the spray worked very well on skin spots. They also sell a product if you feel yeast is an issue. 

I also like Seacure for helping the immune system. 

Any thyroid issues?

Hope this helps.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

GabeBabe said:


> I went back farther on this post and realized you were already talking about skin issues.
> 
> When my dog had an 'allergy' flareup (never did the testing as his skin cleared) we did two baths a week. Use both an antibacterial and anti fungal shampoo to get both issues. So much stuff gets on them from being outside, rolling in the grass, digging in leaves, etc. Could be seasonal - comes and goes depending on what is out there.
> 
> ...


Yes he has a low thyroid. I thought this was the reason and I put him on Soloxine twice daily and hes been on it for a couple months now. I think 3 months. It helped at first, now im starting to wonder if his thyroid was the problem to begin with. Hes been taking oral ACV for a while and I recently stopped at it helped at first but now its not so no point in giving something thats not helping.


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## GabeBabe (Oct 1, 2010)

Well I am not a vet, but, I believe the medicine takes a while to get in to the system. Personally, I am on thyroid medicine and I must go back and have my blood levels checked to see if the dosage I am on is correct....if not, the dose is adjusted. 

I also use Celtic salt, which is a natural source of iodine. Plus has natural minerals. I use it in my filtered water. 

Is the water you give your dog filtered? If it is not, fluoride and chlorine block the iodine receptors in the thyroid. Celtic salt in water modifies the ph in the body, as does ACV in water. So, I wouldn't discontinue it. Plus there are nutrients in ACV.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

GabeBabe said:


> Well I am not a vet, but, I believe the medicine takes a while to get in to the system. Personally, I am on thyroid medicine and I must go back and have my blood levels checked to see if the dosage I am on is correct....if not, the dose is adjusted.
> 
> I also use Celtic salt, which is a natural source of iodine. Plus has natural minerals. I use it in my filtered water.
> 
> Is the water you give your dog filtered? If it is not, fluoride and chlorine block the iodine receptors in the thyroid. Celtic salt in water modifies the ph in the body, as does ACV in water. So, I wouldn't discontinue it. Plus there are nutrients in ACV.


He has had his thyroid levels re checked 2 or 3 times now and the dose is fine. I use regular tap water. I change his bowl every night so it would be pretty expensive to buy filtered water for him and it would take hours to fill a bowl from the fridge dispenser. I could look into one of those ones you put the water into and stick it into the fridge. 

I was told to not use ACV if the dog may have a yeast problem as the ACV could make it worse. I dont know if he has a yeast issue which is another reason I stopped it


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