# Is my golden too small for a purebred?



## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Here is the breed standard from GRCA
Size, Proportion, Substance — Males 23-24 inches in height at withers; females 21 1/2-22 1/2 inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall disqualify.

Length from breastbone to point of buttocks slightly greater than height at withers in ratio of 12:11. Weight for dogs 65-75 pounds; bitches 55-65 pounds.

So she is just a little small but I think she could continue to fill out and gain some weight. I don't know if she will get any taller though. She's a very pretty girl. My Tawny was a little small and I liked that.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Platte River Retrievers is a field type breeder- so their dogs are going to be somewhat lighter weight/frame than a conformation Golden will be.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

If your vet is happy with her condition, don't worry a bit. She is better off for life if you keep her at a leaner weight. Take a couple photos of her standing up from the side and looking down on her waist line, you could even wet her coat down a bit. Send them to the breeder and ask if he is happy with her weight and condition. I bet you he will say that she is what he expected her to be and most likely is similar to her mother and other female relatives.

Keep her lean, she was bred to be an athlete and it's better for her joints.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

She will likely continue to grow, though be it slowly for the next twelve months or so. She'll likely end up very close to that 21 1/2 inch height and weigh in somewhere between 50 and 55 pounds.

My old now departed Kate, was the same size as Abby at that age. She ended up being 21 1/2 tall and 55 pounds at age three. Goldens are not fully mature at twelve months of age, the still have some growth and development left to finish.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

She may still grow a bit, and will definitely bulk out. My last Golden was a female, and she became heavier in her second year, ending up at about 21.5 inches and about 56 lbs. My current dog is a male. He was 22 inches and 46 lbs at a year old, and now, at 3 years old, is 23.5 inches and 54 lbs. Both dogs were (are) lean but not thin; they are agility dogs and in working condition, so they don't carry much extra weight.


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## khodgin1 (Feb 5, 2019)

Thank you all for your input! I think this has put my mind at ease and will help adjust my expectations. She's my first golden, and I've been learning a lot about how great this breed is. Definitely a keeper for my family!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

My girl was not her full height at 12 months either. But at 5.5 years, she is a half inch shorter than your girl and 45 pounds. Some are just more petite than others. I personally love that my girl is small.


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## Evarlette (Jan 20, 2018)

Hello! I have a 17 months old girl named Layla. She’s a petite pup ( that is what the vet told me) But weights 66lbs. To me she still looks like a puppy! Her vet told me she should lose 6 lbs...?


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Evarlette said:


> Hello! I have a 17 months old girl named Layla. She’s a petite pup ( that is what the vet told me) But weights 66lbs. To me she still looks like a puppy! Her vet told me she should lose 6 lbs...?


If she is 66 pounds, she is actually one pound OVER the standard weight for females. Many people I think, are used to seeing these HUGE (poorly bred) golden, when in actuality they aren't meant to be big dogs.


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## love goldens for life (Oct 21, 2019)

My vet says the same thing about Shelley. She's 21.5in and 53lb, he says she's the smallest golden his ever seen, but I think that's because there are a lot of badly breed dogs around here.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

You have a field dog. That's what I have. Your dog is just fine.


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## schultz77 (May 23, 2020)

Would you be able to find out who her parents were? I'm looking for a smaller than average fieldbred golden and have been looking at the breeder, Platte River, that you used. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

schultz77 said:


> Would you be able to find out who her parents were? I'm looking for a smaller than average fieldbred golden and have been looking at the breeder, Platte River, that you used. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!


If you want a small dog, why don't you look into OTHER breeds? There are a variety of breeds with good temperaments, trainability, etc.... who are not large breed dogs like golden retrievers. 

And keep in mind if somebody is breeding dogs that are disqualifying per the breed standard for the breed, what else are they doing wrong?


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## schultz77 (May 23, 2020)

Megora said:


> If you want a small dog, why don't you look into OTHER breeds? There are a variety of breeds with good temperaments, trainability, etc.... who are not large breed dogs like golden retrievers.
> 
> And keep in mind if somebody is breeding dogs that are disqualifying per the breed standard for the breed, what else are they doing wrong?


Because even runts need homes. They appear to be a very reputable breeder for fieldbred goldens, which would be smaller than average show dog golden.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

schultz77 said:


> Because even runts need homes. They appear to be a very reputable breeder for fieldbred goldens, which would be smaller than average show dog golden.


How can a breeder be reputable if they are breeding dogs who are not breed standard? 

Golden retrievers are one of a few where the breed standard has heights and weights written down. And height is a DQ in this breed. 

It is one thing for a breeder to deliberately breed dogs who lack qualities which you look for in a show dog. <= That's fine.

It's another thing for a breeder to deliberately breed dogs who are deliberately over or under.... and 30-40 pounds over or under. 

A purebred golden retriever is a dog where the males can be expected to be about 23-24" and the shoulders, and weigh around 65-75 pounds. 

IF you want a male dog who is more like 40-50 pounds and is about 20" or less at the shoulders? You should be looking at smaller breeds.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

'runts" typically end up at the same size as their littermates... if that is the plan don't count on it!


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## schultz77 (May 23, 2020)

Megora said:


> How can a breeder be reputable if they are breeding dogs who are not breed standard?
> 
> Golden retrievers are one of a few where the breed standard has heights and weights written down. And height is a DQ in this breed.
> 
> ...


They do not appear to deliberately be breeding dogs smaller than the standard, they appear to breed field trial champions. From what I can read, their dogs have taken home hundreds of championships. If I happen to want something on the smaller side of the spectrum to fit a little better in a duck boat, then it would help to know the sire and dam to at least have a chance at getting that. I grew up with a 52 lb golden that was an excellent hunting dog. Rather not have something in the 75+ lb category if I can help it, but big boys need love too.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Megora said:


> If you want a small dog, why don't you look into OTHER breeds? There are a variety of breeds with good temperaments, trainability, etc.... who are not large breed dogs like golden retrievers.
> 
> And keep in mind if somebody is breeding dogs that are disqualifying per the breed standard for the breed, what else are they doing wrong?


Hold on!
There is nothing wrong with a Golden that is at the smaller end of the spectrum. In fact when I contact a breeder I let them know that I prefer just that! For the record in the past I had considered looking into Platte River Goldens for a pup, I thought that they had good stuff.
As for Goldens being a large breed---yes they are but there is a range of weights. I have seen some pretty large Goldens in the show ring whose height and weight should be suspect. And the only time I have seen a wicket is at a CCA event, not at a conformation event. Could be events I attended or could be the judges don't want to check.
Schultz---I am in your camp. Smaller dog with correct and proper coat for hunting out of a duck boat. And the build and athleticism to hunt upland fields/woods for miles, quartering and retrieving for three hunters.
As for smaller breeds---I LOVE Springer Spaniels, their quartering is very impressive but the retrieving part pales in comparison to a field bred Golden.


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## schultz77 (May 23, 2020)

gdgli said:


> Hold on!
> There is nothing wrong with a Golden that is at the smaller end of the spectrum. In fact when I contact a breeder I let them know that I prefer just that! For the record in the past I had considered looking into Platte River Goldens for a pup, I thought that they had good stuff.
> As for Goldens being a large breed---yes they are but there is a range of weights. I have seen some pretty large Goldens in the show ring whose height and weight should be suspect. And the only time I have seen a wicket is at a CCA event, not at a conformation event. Could be events I attended or could be the judges don't want to check.
> Schultz---I am in your camp. Smaller dog with correct and proper coat for hunting out of a duck boat. And the build and athleticism to hunt upland fields/woods for miles, quartering and retrieving for three hunters.
> As for smaller breeds---I LOVE Springer Spaniels, their quartering is very impressive but the retrieving part pales in comparison to a field bred Golden.


Thank you gdgli. Happy Memorial Day.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

schultz
Happy Memorial Day!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

gdgli said:


> Hold on!
> There is nothing wrong with a Golden that is at the smaller end of the spectrum.....


I would suggest you actually READ what the other person said. They want a 52 pound dog and put an emphasis on breeders deliberately breeding under the breed standard. 

People like to throw the word "reputable" around like it's a rubber stamp.

We would all be piling on about a breeder who is deliberately breeding dogs who are 26-28" at the shoulders and way 100+ pounds.

Shouldn't we be consistent and HONEST about people doing the opposite - deliberately breeding undersized dogs? 

Is that breed standard just there for decoration or do we expect breeders to adhere to the breed standard in what they breed? 

Golden retrievers have heights and weight WRITTEN into the breed standard. 

I would not consider a breeder to be reputable if they are deliberately breeding and producing dogs who are 1-2" below the breed standard and are 10-15# underweight. 

For reference - 

Both of these dogs are 23.5 at the shoulders. They are the same exact height even though the younger guy looks taller in the pic (he's not). That is right in the middle of the height spec in the breed standard. They are not super tall, but they are not undersized either. They have to jump 24" in obedience. 

Both dogs are damp from being out playing in the pool earlier this afternoon (and we are heading back outside to play some more). They look heavy to a lot of people who see them, but both are 65-66 pounds. That's at the lower end of the breed standard - because they are young dogs and pretty lean from all the running around that they do. 

Higher end of the breed standard is mid 70's. Lower end is 65-70 pounds. 

My point which you coasted over completely is if Platte River is a legit breeder who is producing dogs who are breed standard - you should expect these dogs to be right around 23-24" at full height. Even if they are field bred. Breed standard should mean something especially when you are talking about a disqualifying fault such as height. 

I don't see a 23-24" golden being 52 pounds - without something being wrong.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Megora
Au contrare, YOU should read what the other person wrote.
1. If you are talking about schultz who said he grew up with a 52 lb. Golden, well that is different from saying he wants a 52 lb. dog. He does not want a big dog.
2. I didn't see any mention of deliberately breeding undersized dogs.
3. In any breeding there is variation. There will be different sizes no matter what you do. For that matter there will be variation in coat and structure as well.
4. You glossed over my comment about a wicket in the conformation ring. I will now go out on a limb. I have seen dogs that should have been measured in the conformation ring. Dogs who can't get a CCA. Challenge me on this one.
5. A fault is not a disqualification. The perfect dog does not exist.
6. Schultz asked for a smaller than the average dog and you suggested he look at other breeds. Why? A Golden on the smaller side is just fine.
7. Re-read Post # 18---"If I happen to want something on the smaller side of the spectrum...". There you go, the man does not want a big Golden.

PS I am re-reading this thread for the fourth time to see if I missed something.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> 1. If you are talking about schultz who said he grew up with a 52 lb. Golden, well that is different from saying he wants a 52 lb. dog. He does not want a big dog.


- Which is why I suggest people look into other breeds. Because asking breeders to produce smaller dogs because you want a dog bred out of standard for yourself is not that different from people asking breeders to breed oversized and overweight dogs. Either way is not breed standard.



> 4. You glossed over my comment about a wicket in the conformation ring. I will now go out on a limb. I have seen dogs that should have been measured in the conformation ring. Dogs who can't get a CCA. Challenge me on this one.


I shrugged that one off, because I do not see oversized goldens in the ring. Most goldens are the same size as my dogs. It's very rare that you see a dog around here who obviously is 24" or a smidge over. They look huge out there.

Assuming you aren't one of those looking at the goldens on TV and thinking they are hoooooogggge (I'm not kidding, I've had people walk up to me at shows and comment on how small the dogs are compared to what they see on TV). It could be a regional thing. I've heard of a breeder or two out east who produce bigger goldens... really have no comment on that.

In general most goldens are either right in the middle or there are some that I see are barely qualifying height wise. That's one thing when it happens. It's another to be requesting a smaller golden.



> 5. A fault is not a disqualification. The perfect dog does not exist.


Wrong.

Disqualifications: Deviation in height of more than one inch from standard either way. Undershot or overshot bite.


**** The reason why I'm posting this is there are people in this breed that pick and choose portions of the breed standard that they like to jump all over. Height and size is a pretty sticky point especially when or if breeders are deliberately producing dogs who do not meet the breed standard. You are talking about dq's vs faults. 

A friend of mine has a MACH and agility hall of fame girlie that she is going to breed when it's time (girlie is in season, but they are checking progesterone waiting for the right day to do it). Girlie is too small.... but the stud they are going to use should fix that. He's actually about 24". MACH2 + UD dog. I think that's pretty awesome and best route to take. 

As an aside, fwiw - there is no given that field or performance bred dogs are going to be smaller than breed standard. That is the other thing which you need to keep in mind. 

Somebody who wants a smaller dog should seriously consider other breeds. There's a lot of nice ones out there.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

You are wrong. Deviation of less than one inch is not a disqualification, it is a fault that should be penalized. "Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized" and "Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall disqualify." This is from the GRCA The Golden Retriever: An Illustrated Guide To The Breed.
As far as field dogs go, I know which dogs are up to a day of hunting.

BTW, take a look at Post #3, Prism's nice post on field dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Megora said:


> We would all be piling on about a breeder who is deliberately breeding dogs who are 26-28" at the shoulders and way 100+ pounds.
> 
> Shouldn't we be consistent and HONEST about people doing the opposite - deliberately breeding undersized dogs?
> 
> ...


AND



Megora said:


> Wrong.
> 
> Disqualifications: Deviation in height of more than one inch from standard either way. Undershot or overshot bite.


^^^^ What I said.

And what he says (LOL) 




gdgli said:


> You are wrong. Deviation of less than one inch is not a disqualification, it is a fault that should be penalized. "


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

There are some very highly-titled purpose-bred (sought-after by people who know the lines) performance goldens who are smaller than the written standard. Some of these smaller goldens are lighter-boned and some are also shorter and lighter in weight. My obedience trainer actually took a look at my multi-purpose bred boy once as a young dog and remarked that she hoped he did not get much larger, as she prefers goldens not be very large. Debates can (and do) go on endlessly among golden folk about whether it is appropriate to breed a golden with remarkable performance ability, but who is not in standard in other ways or a dog with nearly perfect winning conformation for the show ring but who would sink a duck boat and without any birdiness whatsoever. Yet the spectrum of goldens still exists and each is prized by their respective owners.

Small goldens aren't just from performance lines, either. I know of male and female dogs from show lines that are undersized in height per the standard that have been bred. Again, the breeders determined that these dogs had other outstanding characteristics.

Some goldens are smaller than standard - just like some people are much shorter than average. They can still be amazing companions and stellar performance dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Rion05 said:


> Debates can (and do) go on endlessly among golden folk about whether it is appropriate to breed a golden with remarkable performance ability, but who is not in standard in other ways or a dog with nearly perfect winning conformation for the show ring but who would sink a duck boat and without any birdiness whatsoever. Yet the spectrum of goldens still exists and each is prized by their respective owners.


But if a golden is breed standard height and weight.... why would he sink a duck boat?

Personally speaking I don't know why a dog that you can physically pick up and up on a grooming table - or like I've seen at dog shows where the ground is wet - the handlers pick up and literally CARRY from grooming building to the ring so the feet and feathers don't get messed up (before the judge gets to see the dog? I've no idea)... would sink a duck boat when you have some field labs who are 26"+!!! Is it just golden people who need little scrawny dogs? 

And then I've seen some pictures from friends who do all that stuff (I go to church with some lab people who take their dog out hunting every chance they get) - and it's not just 1 guy and 1 dog in a tiny boat. One picture I saw cracked me up because there were 5 guys + a BIG lab in a boat. I'm not a hunter or boater, so I have to admit I was wondering how the boat was staying afloat fully loaded like that. I probably would not have been able to haul that dog out of the water into the boat, but each one of those guys easily could have.

I hope people aren't pretending this is all about 1/2" here. And I don't necessarily think this is all field dogs - I've seen some boys that friends have used and they are good sized dogs that make my breed standard guys look short and fat. 

I'll never forget one of the field guys who used to post here but now is gone. He was one of those who was claiming that show goldens are too fat and heavy coated and they'd sink if they got in water because they were so fat and coated. And then he let it slip his big field bred dog that was all muscle weighed 80 pounds!!! LOL.

It's in the performance end. People who do agility and obedience and who are deliberately using stud dogs who are 2-3" under breed standard height.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^^^ This is one of the big foundation type field dogs in the breed. Glenhaven Devil's Advocate. 

He was one of the pinup type dogs for me back then because he looked a lot like my Charmy to my eyes. 



















^^^ These 2 pictures you can see my other pin up dog from when I was a kid. Tigathoe's Kiowa II. He's the dog on the left in the group picture. Again a big name in the breed. Field Champion. - and not an itty bitty dog.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

Megora said:


> But if a golden is breed standard height and weight.... why would he sink a duck boat?
> 
> Personally speaking I don't know why a dog that you can physically pick up and up on a grooming table - or like I've seen at dog shows where the ground is wet - the handlers pick up and literally CARRY from grooming building to the ring so the feet and feathers don't get messed up (before the judge gets to see the dog? I've no idea)... would sink a duck boat when you have some field labs who are 26"+!!! Is it just golden people who need little scrawny dogs?
> 
> ...


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

If you read my post, I'm not siding with anyone - I am merely pointing out that there is an endless debate among golden folk.  Getting back to the original question in this thread, though (and Megora, I'm not referring to anything you said here), being petite or oversized does not make an individual dog less purebred. People love and become golden fanciers for many different reasons - some more dearly prize their beauty, while others their trainability or birdiness, etc. Some of us are crazy enough to want ALL of the above - haha (the pursuit of the VC and VCX, or even the elusive DDHF)! Some goldens that are shown ARE in standard, but they don't weigh them at shows and many are openly over the standard for weight (look at that "substance"). I have had friends with show goldens who describe them as "lazy" (not "eager" or "alert") and these same dogs indeed do NOT particularly seem very trainable (this is NOT all show goldens, I know!). I also agree that some field dogs are large - technically oversized even! But I've met some amazing performance dogs that are also pretty tiny, and athletic. All in all we have an outstanding breed, but there are many different ideas as to what is "ideal." I am in no way suggesting the standard is not important, but I also recognize that it is subject to interpretation. Some folks are VERY focused on the "primarily a hunting dog," and "active" aspects, while others are more focused on physical appearance as dictated by the standard.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Rion05 said:


> Getting back to the original question in this thread, being petite or oversized does not make an individual dog less purebred.


Being less purebred is not even being discussed though. 

The question was is a breeder "reputable" if they are deliberately breeding dogs who are outside the breed standard?

Is that much different from a breeder who is deliberately breeding "white" goldens?

Should people be telling inquirers, "Oh, you want a small golden? Go get a field bred golden!" <= even though, (1) field breeders technically are not across the board producing dogs who are undersized as implied and (2) there are certain traits that make a dog ideal as a working line golden that most people probably are not expecting in the popular perception of the breed.

And shouldn't you say something if people are looking for dogs who are very much oversized or undersized? - ie, tell them they should be looking into a spaniel or a newfie?


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

I was not referring to folks "deliberately" breeding dogs outside the standard, but rather people who may have happened to have bred a dog with generations of full-clearances, current DNA testing, highest titles in their field, who yes - just happens to be on the small side (not chosen BECAUSE they are small). They realize it, but the dog has other outstanding qualities that lead them to breed the dog. I am not referring to people who are claiming to breed "mini goldens."

No, they can't "just go get a field golden," because as I think we agree - they are not uniformly small at all.

If someone truly isn't interested in a golden, there is nothing wrong with recommending a breed that is actually more like what they are looking for, sure. I have actually told friends to take a look at Tollers, for instance. But, some people prefer certain lines that tend to be smaller. If they are otherwise following the COE, breeding highly-titled dogs in their area, and performing the latest genetic testing, I have a certain level of respect for them - that's all.

There is a whole other world of breeders out there who ignore the COE, breed too young, breed for profit, breed without clearances...to me, THAT is a problem.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Rion05 said:


> I was not referring to folks "deliberately" breeding dogs outside the standard, but rather people who may have happened to have bred a dog with generations of full-clearances, current DNA testing, highest titles in their field, who yes - just happens to be on the small side (not chosen BECAUSE they are small).  They realize it, but the dog has other outstanding qualities that lead them to breed the dog. I am not referring to people who are claiming to breed "mini goldens."


I think we all have friends who have wonderful dogs and we don't want to burn bridges with friends by telling them anything that would hurt their feelings or hurt our friendships with those friends. 

That said, believe that in order to keep your feet on steady ground when you bash a breeder you don't know for doing something wrong.... you've got to hold others to the same expectations. 

There is something very wrong when you have people willing to breed smaller and smaller because they value titles over the actual breeding qualities of a dog. 

Some dogs in obedience, for example, are not breeding quality. 

What is breeding quality?

Very basics, the dog should be breed standard (size, coat texture, etc). 

A golden retriever who is 45 pounds... is not breed standard. 

A golden retriever who is 100 pounds.... is not breed standard.

A golden who is 25" at the shoulders.... is not breed standard.

A golden who is 20" at the shoulders.... is not breed standard.

Can you say a breed is following the code of ethics.... if they are breeding dogs who do not meet breed standard? 

"Recognizing that the Golden Retriever breed was developed as a useful gun dog, to encourage improvement by *careful and selective breeding of Golden Retrievers that possess the appearance, structure, soundness, temperament, natural ability, and personality that are characterized in the standard of the breed, *and to do all possible to advance and promote these qualities. (Paraphrased from Article I, Section 2, of the GRCA Bylaws.) "

In the specific guidelines, the first item references temperament. Second item states breeding dogs should be of conformation typical for the breed.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

fwiw - I would never recommend somebody get a toller. 

Tollers are not a variant of golden retrievers with similar temperaments! 

They are more like aussies! 

If you like aussies, you will like tollers.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

Megora said:


> fwiw - I would never recommend somebody get a toller.
> 
> Tollers are not a variant of golden retrievers with similar temperaments!
> 
> ...


Hmmm...I don't think I said that tollers were a variety of goldens. Just after speaking with some people who THOUGHT they might like a golden, I realized that they might like a different breed altogether - and suggested they LOOK at that breed. 

Well, see now...my friend who had a golden ended up getting an aussie. She is very happy. 😂

I'm going to step out of this discussion, because it feels like what I tried to say is being misunderstood.


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