# Scout Off-Leash Heeling



## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

No tips here, other than have you considered doing Rally first? That way you get some good ring experience and if you need to talk to get her attention back, you can do so without penalty.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You are both looking good! The only suggestion that I have concerns your step when starting out and coming out of the about turn - i would be taking it a smaller step to allow her to get into position before you resume full heeling speed.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

IowaGold said:


> No tips here, other than have you considered doing Rally first? That way you get some good ring experience and if you need to talk to get her attention back, you can do so without penalty.


Yes, if we are not where I want to be in October we will probably do Rally. But--honestly I am not a huge fan of Rally :


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Very cute!

Think about your set up and try and keep it the same. When the video opens, it looks like you're starting to move your left leg as you're saying "ready..." but before the actual strut cue. You can't use "ready...strut" in the ring, so make sure you aren't getting her used to it in training. Get her ready (attentive) and then give your heeling cue as you take off. 

I agree with needing smaller steps in and out of the about turns.

Be careful about not drifting as you heel. Can you work in a basketball or tennis court? It's great for trying to heel along the line and realize how hard it is to walk in a straight line! Empty parking lots work well for that, too.

She's got great attitude when she's tuned into you! Very cute stuff!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Very cute!
> 
> Think about your set up and try and keep it the same. When the video opens, it looks like you're starting to move your left leg as you're saying "ready..." but before the actual strut cue. You can't use "ready...strut" in the ring, so make sure you aren't getting her used to it in training. Get her ready (attentive) and then give your heeling cue as you take off.
> 
> ...


Thank you! That reminds me that I need to reread the obedience regulations several times and carefully over the next few months. Now, can you say strut after every halt when you resume heeling? 

I feel like such a newbie. I have put a CD on a dog before, but we weren't that good and I never paid that close attention to the specifics, and now I have to show Scout in Novice B! *gulp*


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I think you're doing a super job! Don't feel bad about those about turns--I was always screwing those up with my dogs too; but you and Scout look like a real team.

If you're not a fan of Rally, do you feel comfortable spending the entry money on some warm up attempts and go for pre-novice or Wild Card Novice for starters? You can enter a couple of those and see how it goes--or, there is the new Beginner Novice class and title that will be coming out this month--maybe go for that (all exercises are done on lead) and ease into the CD. Just some ideas if you do not like rally--but personally, I think that once you learn the signs, you would breeze through Rally Novice (that is done on lead but like everyone says, you can encourage). Also, from what I recall about the new BN title, some slight praise also is allowed--it is like a bridge title between rally and the CD.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> Thank you! That reminds me that I need to reread the obedience regulations several times and carefully over the next few months. Now, can you say strut after every halt when you resume heeling?
> 
> I feel like such a newbie. I have put a CD on a dog before, but we weren't that good and I never paid that close attention to the specifics, and now I have to show Scout in Novice B! *gulp*


Yes, you can give your heeling verbal cue after each halt. Definitely read the rules, though. I recently saw a gal get major points off for improper hand position during heeling. Only two "legal" hand positions in the ring: natural, arms down at your side, or left arm in front of your waist w/ right arm natural. This gal was double holding her 6' leash across her body.

I like to give my verbal cue a nano second before I move my body. The verbal starts my dog moving so that when I take my first step (always a half step with my left foot) he's not lagging. Harder to get an initial lag this way b/c the dog technically starts a nano second before me and I'm only taking a half step.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

rappwizard: I showed my sheltie in Rally twice and just did not really enjoy it that much. I am not sure why. The first time we earned an easy Q and first place, the second time she barked her way through an NQ (maybe that's why, lol), but she was sure happy.

FlyingQuizini: Again, thanks for the heads up. Every now and then I get a private lesson from someone who is an AKC obedience judge and was halfway to an OTCH when she had to retire her dog. I haven't had one in a while, been busy with field stuff, but I definitely think that is a huge resource. She sends emails out to her students about her judging assignments and sometimes talks about having to knock some serious points off of handlers with nice dogs because of handler errors, even though she was nice enough in the novice ring to point them out to the handler.

I am really itching for another lesson now...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> . Only two "legal" hand positions in the ring: natural, arms down at your side, or left arm in front of your waist w/ right arm natural. This gal was double holding her 6' leash across her body.


Actually that only applies to off leash heeling. As long as you're not holding the leash behind your back or something crazy, you can pretty much use whatever hand positions you prefer. I used to hold my hand at my hip when heeling on leash.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

wow, that's great! I see a huge improvement not only in Scout, but in you too as a handler. I remember your last video, you were lacking confidence in your walk, but you look much better now. And Scout looks so nice, I think there's not much more beautiful than a happy golden giving heads up heeling and wagging its tail.

It's hard to tell if it's just the angle I'm watching from, but it looks like you might have been stepping to the right some out of that first about turn. Like I said, it might just be a trick of the camera, but something to watch out for.

Biggest tip I can give anyone getting ready to show is don't be in a rush. An 18 month old golden is still a baby. Of course some can handle it just fine, so use your judgement and don't be afraid to wait if you're unsure.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> wow, that's great! I see a huge improvement not only in Scout, but in you too as a handler. I remember your last video, you were lacking confidence in your walk, but you look much better now. And Scout looks so nice, I think there's not much more beautiful than a happy golden giving heads up heeling and wagging its tail.
> 
> It's hard to tell if it's just the angle I'm watching from, but it looks like you might have been stepping to the right some out of that first about turn. Like I said, it might just be a trick of the camera, but something to watch out for.
> 
> Biggest tip I can give anyone getting ready to show is don't be in a rush. An 18 month old golden is still a baby. Of course some can handle it just fine, so use your judgement and don't be afraid to wait if you're unsure.


Thanks! I feel like we have come a long way--but still a ways to go. 

I am flip-flopping over whether I should wait. Waiting is so hard when you feel like you are doing so well--but I have talked about it some with other trainers. My instructor has a puppy and she does plan on showing, except maybe Rally, until he is three.

So even better question you guys--what do you look for in your dog to decide if s/he is ready? Please also note your goals, as those of you super competitive types will probably wait longer/have more requirements before you show.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> So even better question you guys--what do you look for in your dog to decide if s/he is ready? Please also note your goals, as those of you super competitive types will probably wait longer/have more requirements before you show.


Note that I'm a novice at this game... but I'll be going with the recommendation of those who got me very interested in obedience.... each exercise can be performed 10 times in a row without errors. Second on the list is being able to do that in various locations. (now...obviously we won't go out and do each part 10 times in a row at the park... but on different days/whatnot do parts...). We'll be aiming for as high as we can go. On one exercise we're set. The others have more work......

Great video, it's so good to see people having fun with their dogs!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> Thanks! I feel like we have come a long way--but still a ways to go.
> 
> I am flip-flopping over whether I should wait. Waiting is so hard when you feel like you are doing so well--but I have talked about it some with other trainers. My instructor has a puppy and she does plan on showing, except maybe Rally, until he is three.
> 
> So even better question you guys--what do you look for in your dog to decide if s/he is ready? Please also note your goals, as those of you super competitive types will probably wait longer/have more requirements before you show.


I'm one of the super competitive types, so I wait. BUT -at the minimum, I like to suggest people feel confident that they can go in and qualify and be happy with the performance - notwithstanding freak things that can happen - vs. going in, fingers crossed and *hoping* they manage the qualify.

If you want attention heeling, I'd say, make sure she can do it to your satisfaction in at least six different, novel locations with varying degrees of distractions. I heel at home, the park, shopping centers, inside dog-friendly stores, etc.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I kind of go in steps to gauge where we are. First I want to see success at matches. Once I can get all the exercises where I want them in a match, I'll enter non-regular classes. I keep the dog in nonregulars until I'm totally happy with the results I see there.

Annabel was my novice A dog and I did not know what I was doing. I figured that if she could do the exercises in training then why not enter her in a trial? So her first trial was two months after her first lesson for competition. Big mistake, she did get her title on her first three tries, but it wasn't pretty.

I started Conner in pre-novice at 15 months. He stayed there for nearly a year. I did one or two Wild Card Novice classes, and then I put him in Novice B for the first time at 2 years and 3 months (one year after I started him in prenovice).

I can tell you now that Flip absolutely will not be ready for prenovice at 15 months. He knows the excercises, but lacks focus - he gets distracted too easily. I may start showing him in some non-regulars while he's two, but I probably won't be showing him in real classes until he's three. The difference between him and Conner though is he should be able to do all the classes - up through grad open and possibly wild card utility before he starts showing in Novice B, since I'm training him on everything. Once Conner had his CD, then we did grad novice, then WC open, the Open, then WC utility, then utility. I didn't think to train above the level we were preparing for at the time.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> -- vs. going in, fingers crossed and *hoping* they manage the qualify.


Darn, that's my strategy every time I walk into the utility ring!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh and I must add, I have so much awe and respect for people like Helen Smith, who can take a male golden (Flip's cousin, btw), and put an OTCH on him before the age of two.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Oh and I must add, I have so much awe and respect for people like Helen Smith, who can take a male golden (Flip's cousin, btw), and put an OTCH on him before the age of two.


That's amazing!


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Oh and I must add, I have so much awe and respect for people like Helen Smith, who can take a male golden (Flip's cousin, btw), and put an OTCH on him before the age of two.


Titan and I showed against Helen in Wichita when we were both in Novice B together. Helen and I spoke about her dog and she said he was her 1st dog to ever be ready at that age. She is a wonderful lady that was very encouraging to me in the beginning. I went back to look at what age Titan was..14 months RN 15 months RA the did some agility and went back for the RE and CD when he was 19 months. The reason I mention this is I used Rally as a tool to get us both ready and to judge how we would handle stress.If you use Rally correctly it is a way to cement that attention in the ring but again it is personal choice and has paid of very nicely for me.
Michelle


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

So, more heeling practice tonight. I figure with where I am at I need to be practicing off-leash all the time unless I am somewhere I can't to give me a a more clear picture of how things are going. I've been talking much less, but do occasional if I feel like she might lag a little (=her neck is even with my leg instead of her shoulder, so nothing serious).

We were granted a wonderful proofing opportunity thanks to an orange tabby cat. Scout's prey drive kicked into gear and her brain shut off momentarily. She didn't chase him although she was off-leash, but she was immune to my voice and collar pops. So, I had to take it way back to baby steps and lure her around the cat to teach her she needs to look at me instead of the kitty she really, really wanted to chase. She did good!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> So, more heeling practice tonight. I figure with where I am at I need to be practicing off-leash all the time unless I am somewhere I can't to give me a a more clear picture of how things are going. QUOTE]
> 
> Of course everyone's theories are different, but I don't do much off leash practice because it's so easy for the dogs to pick up small bad habits that way. Here is how I handle training with a leash:
> 
> ...


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow Loisiana I never thought to do it that way. Hmmm...I was under the impression that once it was good you needed to practice off-leash all the time that way you know where your imperfections are and can work on them. 

I've also thought that was one of the pitfalls of the Novice ring where dogs look great on-leash but when they go off-leash lagging can become quite noticeable to the point of NQ.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

A lot of times those dogs that have significant differences between their on leash and off leash heeling are the ones that were allowed to make mistakes too often off leash, and it makes it clear to the dog that those mistakes can't be made on leash, but can off leash. It makes it almost two different exercises in the dog's mind.

I had this conversation with Dave Gannon early in my obedience career (if you don't know who Dave is he always has one of the top ranked dogs in the country). He said he will occasionally test a dog off leash to make sure there's no problems, but that's all the off leash heeling his dogs get in their lifetime. 

With Annabel, my novice A dog, I took the leash off early and had it off too often. She was a crummy heeler. I followed the plan I outlined above with Conner and Colby, and they typically score 0 to 1/2 point off on heeling (except when Colby gets in "crabby lhasa mode" and refuses to sit on halts - but he almost never gets hit for out of position).


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Only 0 to 1/2 a point off? That sounds so unachievable for me! But very nice! Thanks for the advice I think I will try it. I figured if I taught the behavior well enough (with loose leash) that the off-leash would stick, but then I worried about it falling apart when off-leash.

What are your thoughts on group obedience practice? I haven't been to mine in a few months and I am not sure if I am going to really go back. Everyone heels together in these circles, but everyone goes at different paces and I feel like it is prone to practicing sloppy heeling by doing circles. Plus, they heel for incredible amounts of time which is much more than in the ring and while I get that you should train beyond the ring I think there is a limit to that. (ie if you heel for 2 minutes in the ring, you do not need to heel for 10 minutes outside of it. This is boring and overkill)


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'm not into long heeling stretches either. In the few times I've been in that sort of situation, I will stand slightly to the inside or outside of the circle, that way I can go at my own pace without worrying where others are. And I have no problem releasing my dog early and frequently, taking breaks as needed.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I'm not Jodie or as experienced....

But I definitely think it's important to be sure we're preventing errors. Dogs that go from being pretty good or great at heeling on leash to horrible off leash often are getting cues from the leash. Be sure you're painting the same picture both ways...and that you aren't giving extra cues when the leash is on, whether it's a change in posture or pressure of the leash. 

I HATE the circles of heeling! NOT good training in so many ways! I do NOT let my students EVER ever ever do that. And surprisingly many want it. What I tend to do is set up straight (parallel) lines and have everyone use those... so they're doing only straight line heeling and only working on one criteria at a time. More advanced teams can be closer together. And when we do actual circles, they're smaller (think rally serpentine curves or fig8 curves...) The circles are NOT COOL. There is so much pressure to keep up and whatever else we tend to "compromise our training". Not that this always happens...but I see it in others and myself. We sit out on those circles!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yes, there is a tendency to round the corners and then the worry of bumping into other people during the circle heeling as well. When I was going I was pulling Scout out for breaks (and getting funny looks, lol) because I did not want to practice bored heeling. Yuck! 

But I can say most people are not that competitive and probably just want to pass. As my instructor told me when she found out I wanted cute attention heeling that the vast majority of her students don't want to put the kind of work it takes into training to get that (waiting time included). They want the title and that's it--and that's fine too.

Being in the rural west, people are not as competitive as it sounds like some of the areas you guys come from. A person in our club just picked up an OTCH which I believe is only the third one from Idaho ever. And to get that OTCH here you have to win every single time because there are so few entries. However, a win is not 199.5!


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Oh and I must add, I have so much awe and respect for people like Helen Smith, who can take a male golden (Flip's cousin, btw), and put an OTCH on him before the age of two.


You must be talking about the inceredible Pounce. Yes, they are quite a team and a whole lot of fun to watch  I saw her new puppy earlier this Spring, but haven't seen him since. I wonder how he's doing now (I haven't been at many dog shows recently...)


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

goldengirls550 said:


> You must be talking about the inceredible Pounce. Yes, they are quite a team and a whole lot of fun to watch  I saw her new puppy earlier this Spring, but haven't seen him since. I wonder how he's doing now (I haven't been at many dog shows recently...)


Pounce is out of an amazing litter.....4 OTCH, 1 with OTCH points, 1 with a UD, and another ready for utility. And they're what, 5 years old, so there's still time for those other three to go OTCH. Striker is Pounce's nephew. I haven't met him but I heard he's a handful! 

The breeder of both Pounce and Striker also happens to be my new obedience instructor  She's the one that influenced me to get a Sunfire dog (Pounce's mom Freebie is sunfire and I always loved Freebie). Now when I see her tomorrow she'll see I let Freebie's nephew get a ratty chewed butt


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Pounce is out of an amazing litter.....4 OTCH, 1 with OTCH points, 1 with a UD, and another ready for utility. And they're what, 5 years old, so there's still time for those other three to go OTCH. Striker is Pounce's nephew. I haven't met him but I heard he's a handful!
> 
> The breeder of both Pounce and Striker also happens to be my new obedience instructor  She's the one that influenced me to get a Sunfire dog (Pounce's mom Freebie is sunfire and I always loved Freebie). Now when I see her tomorrow she'll see I let Freebie's nephew get a ratty chewed butt


That is really awesome. I love seeing consistency in litters 

Wow! You are so lucky to be taught by Pouncer and Striker's breeder!! Do the Sunfire Goldens have a website? I am keeping my eyes and ears open the next couple of years. I am looking into a puppy once I get out of college and I'm starting to look at breeders now. (Still getting a feel for what I want).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

This is Sunfire
http://www.sunfiregold.com/index.php


And this is Sunsplash, where both of Helen's dogs came from
http://www.sunsplashacres.com/index.asp?ID=16


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