# "Drive" or "control"?



## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

I'm hoping to get some feedback from agility experts. My Luna just turned 9 months old, and has taken a couple of puppy Obedience classes (and has her CGC) from my local well-respected kennel club. A few weeks ago we started an Agility "Obstacle familiarization" class which Luna loves. She is absolutely fearless, very willing, learns very quickly, and loves all of the obstacles. BUT... the instructors want to encourage "drive", so virtually all the obstacles have either a target or a person at the end of the obstacle with food. Luna LOVES food, so she's always at 110% over and through the obstacles. It seems that she's only focusing on the food, to the point that trying to control her at the bottom of the ramps (raised walk, A-frame) is nearly impossible. I've suggested to the instructors that maybe a lure is too stimulating, and that a treat after the obstacle is more appropriate for Luna since she doesn't need the lure to do the obstacle, but I get the "want to keep the drive" explanation. I'm starting to think I should try to calm Luna (and myself!) a bit and try to do all the obstacles at 50 or 75% "full speed", completely under my control, and use 100% when shes' a bit older and more under control. Any input on the best way to deal with my "wild thing"?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

My 2 cents. I agree with your instructors. Teach your dog this game is the bomb, you want all your dog can give and you in the process learn how to handle the drive. If you teach your dog to run slow now, you may not get it out later and you may be sorry later. 

I have had 2 agility dogs. My first was slow and steady, typically she did her obstacles cleanly, but time was our nemisis. I also ran her preferred that allowed her 5 extra seconds on the clock. I had to be very careful where I was in relation to her, if I got too far ahead, she would stop. I couldn't rear cross as she never got in front. I was cheering, and clapping ALL the way around the courses. I had a lot of successes with her, I had a blast, but it was a LOT of work on my part. I couldn't handle, I just got her around the course. My current partner is my Golden Gabby. She gives the border collies a run for their money. She is lightning fast. She has her challenges, but it is much easier to run her because I know she will go in the direction I want her to, sometimes too fast but as a handler I learn to handle that issue. I would much prefer the drive. 

I agree at the beginning it feels like the dog is more focused on the treat then the behavior. But you keep repeating, they learn if I go over this obstacle I get rewarded, it makes them WANT to do that obstacle, and they see it pleases you at the same time. Your obedience work you have done will come into play, but as long as your dog is not running off doing zoomies, don't get hung up on control. In agility the end game is your dog works with you while running on an independent path. Trust me everyone goes through a zoomie period when they first start trialing, but it's another way of a dog showing they LOVE the game. They just forget it's a team sport. 

Belle my first agility dog did not "love" agility she loved playing with me. I was the main factor, she did it because I asked her to. Gabby LOVES agility, and she would play with anyone who came along to play with her. She likes playing with me the best, but she would run for anyone. She loves going mach 2 with her tail on fire. Luna sounds like a super young prospect, teach the obedience and control between exercises, but let her have her crazy times when she is practicing obstacles. You don't want her to blow you off when you ask her to do something but if she gives it her all and in an exuberant way don't knock it. That is what you want. 

On a side note, I also do obedience. I have been to seminars where the trainer said dogs either gear up or down in the ring. Since Gabby is high octane, I assumed she would stay up. In the field and in agility she does, actually she comes out higher than she ever does in training. In obedience, she does come down. So now I am training her much more up than I did. Not sure I will fix what I have done or not. She is still more than awesome in obedience, but I want her on the edge. Having a dog on the edge, presents its own challenges but they are easier challenges in my book. 

Have fun, enjoy the journey, agility is a game play it with your dog. 

Ann


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Maxs Mom said what I was thinking only way better than I could have said it.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

_Max's Mom_ has given you advice as a more experienced competitor but I can relate to what you're saying because I'm pretty much at the same stage with Gracie. She's also_ "absolutely fearless, very willing, learns very quickly, and loves all of the obstacles". _She's also very food motivated. I have limited handling experience and find that using food as a lure isn't necessary and I can end up pulling her off course . . . definitely can be a problem on the A frame, dog walk, and teeter. Our trainer has me treat after A frame and dog walk but just at the tipping point on the teeter. Gracie just loves the obstacles, no luring necessary. The trainer has even started moving back from the obstacle, noting that she was providing too much of a target for Gracie. Our problem is me being able to keep up with my little speed demon and keeping her under control.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

TheZ's said:


> _Max's Mom_ Our problem is me being able to keep up with my little speed demon and keeping her under control.


Good luck with that....  

Sorry... that is still my struggle with Gabby. When I got Gabby, a 360 degree change from Belle, my agility trainer "dropped" me. Stopped helping me, I basically was on my own until Feb of 2013. I thought I just need to run faster.... yeah like that works. 

Gabby is a lot faster than I am yet... I am able to handle her now with blind crosses. If you had told me 2 years ago I would be doing that I would have laughed in your face. The trainer I have now, believes in handling a dog "upstream". I rarely do rear crosses because then Gabby is ahead, and can't get properly queued to where she is going. So I send and move laterally it's what works best for us. It amazes even me when I can beat her somewhere. With Belle I always had to wait, it was hard to learn to MOVE, I had a friend who very to the point said "stop watching Golden Retriever television". :doh: You too will get better at the handling, but it won't necessarily be keeping up with her. 

At a recent trial, I made a stupid mistake (at obstacle #2) and pulled Gabby off of it. As I took off to continue the course, I decided I was going to go full tilt, I was not going to protect a darn thing, I already NQ'd lets see what we can do.... She SMOKED the course in just over 38 seconds (standard course with contacts) When I looked at the results later it appears the judge missed my mistake because Gabby was in 4th place. Now if I only hadn't had to re-circle her and re-catch the second jump.... Imagine what her time might have been. 

Oh and for the record.... I train 2O2O for my contacts. I need to know I can stop and catch up with my dog if need be. LOL


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

It sounds like you're having a great time with Gabby and know what you have to do to work successfully with her. We're just doing this "for fun" right now. Rear crosses, blind crosses, handling "upstream", 2O2O contacts . . . it's all Greek to me. My real interest is obedience but I feel Miss Gracie pulling me into agility. She seems to love it and my guess is she could be really good at it. The trainer's commented that she has no fear (not sure that's all good) and is going to be really fast.


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## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

Thanks for all the input! Maybe my comment about control was a little misleading. When Luna does her obstacles, primarily the walk and the A-frame, she is usually so excited (and fast!) that she can't stop properly at the end of the obstacle. The instructor said Luna needed a little more control or coordination as she's still a puppy and she needs to know where her hind quarters are. Last night we were running the walk (it's now at almost the regulation height). The instructor was at the end with a treat. I sent Luna and hightailed it to the other end (ended up a bad second...) as Luna flew into the target the instructor was holding at the end. The instructor's comment was "WOW that was SCARY - a 50 pound white missile heading right for me!!!" For the "bottom" behavior I can give Luna a quick "SLOW" command and she'll at least try to slow at the end. I can fade that command once she understands she needs to be in control at the bottom of the obstacle. I'm also a rank beginner, and don't know about 2020 contacts, but I figure I have more than a year before we're ready for real agility anyway, and I'm hoping I can learn enough before then.  Thanks for the insight! Looks like "pedal to the metal" will continue to be our mantra!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

All that behavior is taught. First they have to run. Once they get the going across you start teaching the need to hit the contact or stop. Sounds like your instructor needs to find a better spot to be in. I say that jokingly. Now that she sees what your dog can do. 

Agility takes time to learn. Things like contacts, weave poles etc take considerable training. One step at a time. And you are constantly working things if you continue in agility. It's not trained and done, behaviors need improving and re addressing. 

Dogs love agility for the most part. While they are playing with you they are running and just plain having a ball. It's a wonderful team sport. It's never boring. 

Oh and both of you with the fast dogs, wait for the first spill off the dog walk. It will happen. You hope they don't get hurt but you as a trainer can't baby them. As a dog owner you want to. I remember Gabby's first face plant. She jumped to her feet took off and tried again. Managed to balance better the next time. 

Again enjoy!! I love agility the partnership I developed with both my dogs is worth everything. It's an addicting game. 


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## Sydney's Mom (May 1, 2012)

Did you train "target/spot" contacts on the ground before the obstacles? Because that may be helpful - so they have that command as they come over the equipment.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Coming from a different angle 

I want my dogs safe & confident first, then fast. Speed and focus on the end behaviors will come as confidence increases - as long as it is not trained out or corrected out of your dog.

My contact behaviors take a while to train and it is trained by backchaining first on the flat, then with with travel planks, then actual obstacles being incrementally raised. My dogs are trained to safely bail from the dog walk, teeter and AFrame so they always know how to safely dismount if they take a bad entry angle, hurt a foot or in an extreme example, my Casey bailed the dog walk when a truck back fired for 20 feet away - he was not hurt and happily ran to the end to assume his position.

I want my dogs listening for cues and driving when not cued - this too is taught in separate stages - drive versus collection; both sets of training need to be balanced. I also will not do call-offs so if my dog is ramming full speed ahead he needs to be ready to listen and I need to be ready to cue far enough in advance to give my dog the information (s)he needs.

I should mention that I have had fast dogs and I have had steady dogs; the fast dogs have more lessons in control & focus while the steady dogs had more lessons in driving - it is about balance but mostly (for me) it is about safety & fun  

You can also get remote treat machines so the target is waiting but the treat is not accessible until you hit the remote to prevent self rewarding for flying off the contact zone.

But to summarize how I train: Both speed and control have to be worked in balance when I am training my dogs. Contacts are taught for weeks or months before my dogs see the actual equipment and then it is low. I have learned the hard way that only excellence in contact behavior can be rewarded with either a treat of the permission to go to the next obstacle. 

If your gut is telling you to slow it down, please listen to that inner voice. You know your dog best.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

this is a blinding flash of the obvious, but you need to be saying "bottom" when she's about halfway across the walk. Don't wait until she gets to the down ramp, or you're way too late for her to process it. 




ellisda1 said:


> Thanks for all the input! Maybe my comment about control was a little misleading. When Luna does her obstacles, primarily the walk and the A-frame, she is usually so excited (and fast!) that she can't stop properly at the end of the obstacle. The instructor said Luna needed a little more control or coordination as she's still a puppy and she needs to know where her hind quarters are. Last night we were running the walk (it's now at almost the regulation height). The instructor was at the end with a treat. I sent Luna and hightailed it to the other end (ended up a bad second...) as Luna flew into the target the instructor was holding at the end. The instructor's comment was "WOW that was SCARY - a 50 pound white missile heading right for me!!!" For the "bottom" behavior I can give Luna a quick "SLOW" command and she'll at least try to slow at the end. I can fade that command once she understands she needs to be in control at the bottom of the obstacle. I'm also a rank beginner, and don't know about 2020 contacts, but I figure I have more than a year before we're ready for real agility anyway, and I'm hoping I can learn enough before then. Thanks for the insight! Looks like "pedal to the metal" will continue to be our mantra!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Early in puppy training or introduction to obstacles which is my understanding of the class the OP is in, you should not be teaching commands "yet". Just get the dog familiar with the obstacles and what they are to do (with the exception of weaves) when presented to one. However the dog should be going from "yellow to yellow" not jumping off before, teach complete the obstacle. 

However teaching a target on the ground now is not a bad idea. It can then be transferred over to a contact when the time comes to train contact behavior. In the puppy class I assisted, we asked the dogs to sit, do obstacle, sit after obstacle. That exercise helps the dog to focus on the handler. 

A target game I did with Gabby which taught to go away from me and come back, in rapid succession. You can use a flexi for this, I did off leash in areas where we would not disturb others. Put dog in a sit stay (also teaches beginner start line stay behavior) place a target with a small treat on it 10-20' away. Start closer, make the distance greater as the dog progresses. Return to the dog. The dogs focus should be on the treat. Release and the MOMENT the dog gets to the target, call it eagerly and energetically back to you. Treat is small so it is quickly sucked up, no plate licking or chewing necessary. If you can find a helper to load the target, that's even better. The idea is to go back and forth as quickly as you can. It teaches the dog, targets are to be traveled to and usually bear good things. It teaches if you come back to me, we can play some more. It also teaches manners as the game revs up and stays are still required. This is a good time to introduce your release word, that word and ONLY that word is what the dog can move on. As the dog advances I use other release words to make sure my dog stays put until "the right" release word is given. 


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Maxs Mom said:


> Early in puppy training or introduction to obstacles which is my understanding of the class the OP is in, you should not be teaching commands "yet". Just get the dog familiar with the obstacles and what they are to do (with the exception of weaves) when presented to one. However the dog should be going from "yellow to yellow" not jumping off before, teach complete the obstacle.
> 
> . . . In the puppy class I assisted, we asked the dogs to sit, do obstacle, sit after obstacle. That exercise helps the dog to focus on the handler.


Glad to see this. It's what we're doing. I was starting to think we were getting off to a bad start.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I like shaping over luring for most behaviors. With Lindy I am working on my contacts with no lure or target, just focused on her finding the 2o2o position. I started at home on a platform and then switched to a training plank. I have been very happy with how her understanding had carried over to lowered contacts.

I did not want to lure at the end because I don't want my dogs mindlessly chasing food or a lure. I want them to be thoughtful in their actions and training.


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