# Does anyone know Mattiaci Goldens



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

double post


----------



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Mattiaci Que Syrah Syrah "Syrah"
and
Am CH.Glacier Philippe de Rothschild Mattiaci "Philippe"

All clearances are in order and are hyperlinked above. Ask to see both Philippe's and Syrah's updated eye clearance. They don't have to be sent in to OFA so I am sure that there is a hard copy for you to see.  Just ask!


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Yes, Florence shows and breeds goldens and I believe Cavaliers. She is a long time breeder and exhibitor and has also had some top winning Kuvasz.

She has a good reputation among her peers. As Melissa said, check on the eye clearance and looks like you are set!


----------



## 2dollys (Jan 24, 2011)

Not a breeder myself, so not an expert. 

I talked with her too when we were doing research. At that time they had multiple puppies that were ready to go to homes that were not spoken for...I understand now that is a bit of a warning sign. 

I thought she was nice, but did hear from another very reputable breeder that they would no longer let her breed with any of their dogs, wouldn't let a pup go to her and wouldn't recommend them as a good breeder to get a pup from. 

I ended up doing more research and looking at other breeders.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

Just wanted to add that the reason I asked other breeders about Mattiaci was that I had found her on the internet, not through the breed club or a referral. So I only knew what she put on her website and as I said above, she was very nice on the phone. But as I did more research and spoke with breeders all over the NW, I made a personal decision not to go with that breeder. I was trying to give the OP my opinion and have limited personal experience with the breeder and her reputation. I was just trying to say that one of the breeders that I later came to trust (and there are many here in the Northwest), didn't recommend this breeder for me. I am not at all trying to attack her but was just trying to give the OP feedback on why I decided not to get a puppy from this breeder.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

2dollys said:


> did hear from another very reputable breeder that they would no longer let her breed with any of their dogs, wouldn't let a pup go to her and wouldn't recommend them as a good breeder to get a pup from.


 
Did this breeder give any explanation as to why? It might be nice for the OP to have some background on this....


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

2dollys said:


> Not a breeder myself, so not an expert.
> 
> I talked with her too when we were doing research. At that time they had multiple puppies that were ready to go to homes that were not spoken for...I understand now that is a bit of a warning sign.
> 
> ...


 
Having puppies available to go to their new homes soon ahould not be a red flag. As a breeder, this happens for a variety of reasons and I have also then been a breeder who has puppies ready to go to their new homes soon but then all of a sudden has a puppy available. Life happens with dogs-people lose their jobs, get transferred, have a change in their life with their parents health, their health and the list goes on an on. I don't think any of these things happening to a person makes the family a bad home nor should it be a reflection on the breeder. I have had all these things happen and then there have been times that I or another breeder was hoping to keep a puppy from a litter and then it wasn't going to work out.

We had a litter this summer that this happened with. A person was going to take a show puppy and then some things they were working on with their house ran considerably over budget so she could no longer take a puppy. This is a very reputable breeder who many on the list have said wonderful things about. This doesn't make her or myself a bad person. Another person went to work on a Monday and found they were being transferred at work from Ohio to Atlanta. Having to put one home on the market and trying to buy another home in another city is not the greatest time to be bringing a puppy home. Again, this is not a reflection on the person or myself. But, I am glad that these people told me that there were changes in their life circumstances that it wouldn't be a good time for a puppy. So, all of a sudden, I had 2 puppies available from a litter that was 6.5 weeks old that had been previously all spoken for.


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

I have another question. When I asked about whether the puppies have been temperament-tested. She said the puppies had been well socialized, and were outgoing and playful and that temperament testing does not yield any more information.

Is that really true? It was my understanding that temperament testing is a way of determining how the puppy reacts to different stimuli, and from there place the puppy in an appropriate home.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There is a prior thread here discussing this breeder.


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Ljilly28 said:


> There is a prior thread here discussing this breeder.


I searched for the kennel name and didn't find anything.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

khrios said:


> I have another question. When I asked about whether the puppies have been temperament-tested. She said the puppies had been well socialized, and were outgoing and playful and that temperament testing does not yield any more information.
> 
> Is that really true? It was my understanding that temperament testing is a way of determining how the puppy reacts to different stimuli, and from there place the puppy in an appropriate home.



I have found that temperament testing is for the puppy buyer's sake but that it really does not mean much. I have been on both sides (breeder and puppy buyer) and do not put much stock into them personally. A breeder who spends lots of time socializing and observing the pups veryday will have a MUCH better read on the pups than a one time temperament test will.
But that is just my opinion.


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> I have found that temperament testing is for the puppy buyer's sake but that it really does not mean much. I have been on both sides (breeder and puppy buyer) and do not put much stock into them personally. A breeder who spends lots of time socializing and observing the pups veryday will have a MUCH better read on the pups than a one time temperament test will.
> But that is just my opinion.


I agree, the method doesn't matter, just the end result that the breeder can describe the temperament of the puppies and make a good pairing between puppy and family. 

In our case, we have a special needs person in our household, my mom. This puppy, when grown, will be mom's companion during the day. Not all puppies in a litter will be suited to our situation, I would think.


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

We have even considered adopting a young adult dog, as long as it has the right temperament. I have been looking on the rescue organizations websites, and found none, as of yet.


----------



## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

@ khiros

I just recently got a puppy (he's now 15 weeks old) and while there was a temperment test done, it's really a blip on the screen compared to all the time that the breeder spends with the litter to determine which one is the correct match. My breeder knew by 7 weeks the right puppy for me (I was open to a male or female) and the temperment test in my case matched up. My first one was picked the same way - his litter had been tested by a service dog organization and he would have gone to service school if I had not had the first pick and his temperment matches up to what the breeder and the service organization observed. But is the day to day observations that is the most important to me.

As long as you told the breeder everything about what you want in the puppy, the folks living in the house etc. she should be able to pick the right one.


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I have found that temperament testing is for the puppy buyer's sake but that it really does not mean much. I have been on both sides (breeder and puppy buyer) and do not put much stock into them personally. A breeder who spends lots of time socializing and observing the pups veryday will have a MUCH better read on the pups than a one time temperament test will.
> But that is just my opinion.


I really agree with that, particularly in talking to lots of more experienced people than me. There are two exceptions though I think: retrieve test and sound sensitivity. I've heard sound sensitivity and the ability to recover is pretty set in stone. And I've retrieval at a young age shows some working ability.


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

AmbikaGR said:


> I have found that temperament testing is for the puppy buyer's sake but that it really does not mean much. I have been on both sides (breeder and puppy buyer) and do not put much stock into them personally. A breeder who spends lots of time socializing and observing the pups veryday will have a MUCH better read on the pups than a one time temperament test will.
> But that is just my opinion.


 
Absolutely agree with this one!!! It is much more important that the breeder be spending lots of time with and socializing the puppies than if they actually go thru the steps to do a formal temperament test. If the breeder is spending time with the puppies, they know more than a temperament test can tell them.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't put any stock in temperament testing, although noise sensitivity and retrieving interest are things that might hold more credence. But in theory, with the proper training, any dog can be taught to retrieve...my trainer has taught her chihuahuas to retrieve and yesterday was working on retrieving with a Havenese. Had I listened to the temperament test of my Laney where she was deemed dominant(and she was everything but...) following her breeder's recommendations, I would've turned her into a fear biter..for sure. The only thing Laney ever wanted to do was retrieve all day long.


----------



## Mattiaci (Aug 26, 2008)

One of the best things about the web is the wealth of information it makes readily available to the public. One of the worst things about it is the amount of incorrect information that can be found online. It is especially troubling when false information and lies come from an anonymous source that, for whatever reason, targets you unfairly. "2Dollys," that suggests I am an unreputable breeder. 2Dollys, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I am an AKC Breeder of Merit, AKC Silver Medallion Gold Medallion breeder of champions. I have had two national service dog organizations come to me, purchase breeding stock from my breeding program for their programs -- PAWS of MI & Giude Dogs of FL. I have titled my golden retrievers from a UD in obedience, tyng for HIT to breeding group placing AKC Champions in golden retrievers. 

2Dollys, who identifies themselves as not being an expert or a breeder tells us that “I talked with her too when we were doing research. At that time they had multiple puppies that were ready to go to homes that were not spoken for...I understand now that is a bit of a warning sign.” 

Really? Since I don’t usually take reservations on unborn puppies and am very selective in whom I sell to, it is not only possible but likely that if 2Dollys contacted me shortly after a litter was born. I may have puppies for sale, even at the time they were ready to go to a home. The only “warning” one should take from this is the fact that I would take my time, sell my dogs to good homes. Having shown dogs for 25 years, and breeding golden retrievers for 23 years, I have done such a good job finding the right homes for my golden retriever puppies that I have only received 3 back in 23 years years.The first, the 4H daughter went onto college and the parents could no longer care for the dog. The second, the owner was dying of cancer. The third, the owner died.

I wish I could ask our self described non-expert what ominous signs are portended by my having had multiple dogs for sale some eight weeks after birth, but alas they remain unknown. I looked up your e-mails, 2Dollys, and read we were discussing my 2 female puppies available when you inquired, of the 4 puppies I had available on that day, of my litter. 

Even more obscure and curious is the “very reputable breeder”, 2Dollys claims to 
have talked to who said “they would no longer let her [me] breed with any of their [my] dogs, wouldn't let a pup go to her and wouldn't recommend them as a good breeder to get a pup from.” 

Really? And the reason for this is . . . ? Oh I’m sorry, it is not provided, just as the identity of this supposedly slanderous other breeder remains a mystery. Since I generally keep in regular contact with stud dog owners to discuss our kids and their health and wins, the only stud owner I haven't talked to in a few years is in your e-mail: 

"2Dollys"
7/23/10
to me 
Hi there, I am very interested in your dogs. I saw the 4 puppies you have available on your webpage, oh my, precious! I had found your website a few weeks ago when 
researching golden breeders who take great care to breed healthy dogs. We have been talking to Chuckanut Goldens over here in Bellingham WA, but their next litter will not be available until around Thanksgiving and I am a teacher and am on break from now until mid-September, making this the ideal time for a new puppy for us..."

I talked to Chuckanut goldens today in person, and Ken not only denies saying what you wrote that he did, but that he doesn't have an issue with me, breeding to my bitches, and isn't angry at me about anything. I bred to 3 of his stud dogs over the years starting in the early 90's: Am-Can CH Chuckanuts Typesetter, BIS BISS Am/Can CH Chuckanut's In The Mood OS and BISS Am/Can CH Chuckanut's Brasstime TD,JH,NA,NAJ,WC,VCX,OS,SDHF; Can TD,JH,WC,OS 

And in response to Ljilly28 -- there are posts about my trained puppies for "$4,500?!?!?!" One of those puppies went on to be a service animal: 

Tango, A Service Animal Story – 52 Weeks 

Once again, don't look for future posts from me. I am too busy actually finishing my dogs AKC Championships, and training my dogs to a higher title than CGC to have time to sit at a computer internet board and no interest in gossiping about other breeders, or other people who are doing more with their dogs in any venue, than I am. It's sad that I was directed to the original posts, and took time in the first place to read this libel after driving 560 miles one way to a dog show, with only a few hours to my 5 AM wake up call to start getting dogs ready for our 8 am ring time.

Florence


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Wow, that is a dramatic post. I, too, am an AKC breeder of merit ... and still trying to figure out what happened here... As a vet, I tell my clients anyone can be what they want to be on the internet. Just for the record, my dogs have numerous AKC obedience/rally titles. not including CGC's. And I have 2 Can Ch bitches, one Can Ch pointed and one bitch with 10 AKC points... who are you targeting?


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

I am the OP. I'm not sure what happened. I thought the responses were favorable regarding Florence and her breeding program. Not sure what I missed.


----------



## 2dollys (Jan 24, 2011)

*Wow.*

Just got home from being out enjoying my goldens. Came home to a message on my phone(!) and the thread response on here from this breeder.

I have asked the mods to remove my post (I hope that is possible) because I really was not trying to attack or offend.

And, most importantly, this breeder has decided which breeder I must have been referring to. She is incorrect and it is inappropriate to speculate and name her guess.

I'm so sorry. What a bad experience on GRF, a place I have loved to visit and learned much from!


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Wow, that is a dramatic post. I, too, am an AKC breeder of merit ... and still trying to figure out what happened here... As a vet, I tell my clients anyone can be what they want to be on the internet. Just for the record, my dogs have numerous AKC obedience/rally titles. not including CGC's. And I have 2 Can Ch bitches, one Can Ch pointed and one bitch with 10 AKC points... who are you targeting?





khrios said:


> I am the OP. I'm not sure what happened. I thought the responses were favorable regarding Florence and her breeding program. Not sure what I missed.


Florence was responding/targeting 2dollys post on page one of this thread. See below.



2dollys said:


> Not a breeder myself, so not an expert.
> 
> I talked with her too when we were doing research. At that time they had multiple puppies that were ready to go to homes that were not spoken for...I understand now that is a bit of a warning sign.
> 
> ...


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't know Florence personally, but I have heard nothing but good things about her and her breeding program. I have seen a few of her dogs at shows out here (Southern California) and they are lovely. 

I would never take an available puppy to be a "warning sign" if the breeder is otherwise on the up and up. Especially in this terrible economy people's situations change. My Kira's litter was all spoken for before they were born and 3 of the pups ended up available - one family had to move unexpectedly for a new job, one lost their job, and one had an accident and needed knee surgery that would require her to be off her feet for the first 6 weeks the puppy was home. Stuff happens. It doesn't mean a breeder is not reputable because of it.


----------



## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

I don't want to hijack this thread or add to the confusion. I have always gone with my gut on matters of selecting a breeder from which to buy a dog or a home in which to place a dog. If you are simply considering Mattiaci and are open to other breeders, let me recommend Judy Inman of Promise kennels in Sanger, CA. They are closer to you than Mattiaci and are also a Breeder of Merit. Her stud dog Tonka is one of twenty six golden Grand Champions as I understand it. It had been several years since we even explored the show world and when we last did, there was no such thing as a grand champion. But apparently there is now and Judy provided us a long list of his AKC Conformation accomplishments. We just brought our Promise golden home a week ago at 13 weeks of age and the dog is a sheer joy. He was essentially already house broken and was responding to sit and down. He stayed at the door to let the humans pass through first although he is still working on mastering this. I will not go on glowing about him but just suggest that unless you have made you mind up on Mattiaci, you consider Judy as an alternative. Good luck with whatever you decide.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Calistar said:


> Her stud dog Tonka is one of twenty six golden Grand Champions as I understand it.


There are significantly more than 26 GCH golden retrievers. I just searched on k9data with the title prefix and over 200 came up in the list.


----------



## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Thanks goldenjack for the data. That is why I said it the way I did hoping to make it clear I was not completely certain about it and that it should be verified as you did. Do you know when AKC started the Grand Championship program? As I said, it did not exist when we showed in the early 1990's


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Calistar said:


> Thanks goldenjack for the data. That is why I said it the way I did hoping to make it clear I was not completely certain about it and that it should be verified as you did. Do you know when AKC started the Grand Championship program? As I said, it did not exist when we showed in the early 1990's


 
Speaking as the GRCA's conformation statistician for many years: The AKC implemented the GCH(Grand Championship program) on May 12, 2010. There are now 100's of goldens who have completed the requirements for a GCH which are essentially 3 majors and 25 points.


There are also 100's of breeders who are listed as AKC breeder of Merit. The requirements are below:

Has a history of at least 5 years involvement with AKC events.

Earned at least 4 Conformation, Performance or Companion event titles on dogs they bred/co-bred.
Member of an AKC club.
Certifies that applicable health screens are performed on your breeding stock as recommended by the Parent Club.
Demonstrates a commitment to ensuring 100% of the puppies produced are AKC registered
Neither, in and of themselves, should be reasons for choosing a breeder. Yes, they do demonstrate that the breeder is involved in showing their dogs but there are also other requirements that people should be looking for in a breeder. I would also state that just because a breeder is an AKC Breeder of Merit does not mean that the person looking for a puppy should not still check clearances. The AKC does not check the clearances of dogs for the breeders who are Breeders of Merit. The breeder only states on the application that they do the clearances that are recommended by the parent club.


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

Hvgoldens4

Thank you for this info. I thought the AKC breeder of Merit implied that somehow the AKC had reviewed the breeding program. 

We have selected a breeder. He is Ken Mathews from Chuckanut Retrievers. Frankly, we hit it off...talked for a long time, and he addressed all my concerns. I feel he will be wonderful to work with through the years of my dog’s life. Also, I have read many great posts about his dogs like Oscar and Happy...

Finally, he may have an adult dog available, if we choose to go that route. 

Thank you all for your comments and instruction. There really is an amazingly helpful group of people here!


----------



## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

khrios said:


> Hvgoldens4
> 
> Thank you for this info. I thought the AKC breeder of Merit implied that somehow the AKC had reviewed the breeding program.
> 
> We have selected a breeder. He is Ken Mathews from Chuckanut Retrievers.


 
Yes, I was afraid that a lot of people somehow think that an AKC Breeder of Merit is somehow like a Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. It is minimum standards and with the number of breeds the AKC has to keep track of, it would be more than cumbersome for them to try to come up with a way to really check breeders.

Ken is a great guy and I am sure you will be very happy with your puppy or adult/whichever way you chose.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Congratulations. I think Captain is beautiful.


----------



## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

One of the things that I don't like about the Breeder of Merit program is that the requirements are for ANY breed, not necessarily Golden Retrievers. I've found a few Breeders of Merit with Golden Retriever litters that have never titled a Golden but have titled dogs in other breeds. In most cases, those titles were very easily earned Companion Dog titles. It would be better if breeders had to re-apply and meet the requirements for *EACH* breed that they wanted to become a Breeder of Merit in.


----------



## Jacksonian (Oct 16, 2012)

enough already


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

I am the OP. I ended up bringing home a Chuckanut Goldens puppy. She has the most amazing temperament and has been the star of her obedience classes... 

There are many wonderful humans in the golden community. Just read this forum, and you will see such acts of kindness, caring and compassion. It warms the heart.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Jacksonian said:


> I have a Mattiaci puppy. He's wonderful. I purchased him as a family dog.
> conformation is wonderful, he could be a show dog. I know professional handlers that confirmed this. He's laid back, bright. easily trained.
> Being naive I had asked if there's a possibility to change his AKC registration to full.
> The response was was a tirade-in the full definition.
> ...


Did you ask to "change his registration to full" or did you say you would like to show your dog? If I had a litter and someone asked to change a puppy's registration to full they would get a tirade from me too. It makes it sound like you just want to breed your dog.... I would tell the breeder you are interested in showing and see what she says.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I had someone approach me wanting to change the registration to full and I reacted negatively. Had the person instead gotten hunt test, obedience titles, or agility titles on the dog in question, I would have not reacted the way I did. This particular person when she picked up the pup said, we might want to breed him. She had just signed a contract saying she would neuter him.... Knowing what I know now, I should have given her her check back. Ultimately after an email war, she neutered him THEN returned him to me. He was absolutely beautiful and at least as nice as some of my Can Ch....


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I had someone approach me wanting to change the registration to full and I reacted negatively. Had the person instead gotten hunt test, obedience titles, or agility titles on the dog in question, I would have not reacted the way I did. This particular person when she picked up the pup said, we might want to breed him. She had just signed a contract saying she would neuter him.... Knowing what I know now, I should have given her her check back. Ultimately after an email war, she neutered him THEN returned him to me. He was absolutely beautiful and at least as nice as some of my Can Ch....


Just curious, not trying to start an argument, but did you tell the owner if they got hunt test, obedience titles, or agility titles on the dog you would consider it?


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Mylissik, I absolutely told her if she got titles (I do not count a CGC which he didn't have anyway), I would reconsider. However, she bought the pup with housewarming money, she did not have a lot of disposable income. Conformation showing is a money sink. I know from having a beautiful bitch that is a Can Ch,finished with 10 AKC points and no championship... I think that she was getting positive comments from people who probably asked if she was going to breed him..Sooo after not hearing from her for six months after I told her to give me the puppy back and I would refund her money(another story), she emails me and says she wants full registration to "show him". Because she knew I would not consider any breeding or full registration unless the dog competed in some venue. At the time, my husband was her vet and my OTCH trainer friend trained her and her dog, so I heard about him thru them... She was adamant... As far as I know, I don't thnk she had ever even been to any kind of dog show....


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

khrios said:


> I am the OP. I ended up bringing home a Chuckanut Goldens puppy. She has the most amazing temperament and has been the star of her obedience classes...


CONGRATS!! :dblthumb2

Any pictures??


----------



## RawFedK9s (Oct 16, 2012)

I see someone all of a sudden wanting me to change from a limited (non registerable/non breeding) to a full, it sends up red flags for me as a breeder! Too many get a dog and after living with it, think... I want to BREED this dog. If the dog was sold on a limited, likely it was because the breeder felt it should not be bred. Period and end of story as far as I'm concerned!


----------



## Mattiaci (Aug 26, 2008)

I'm sure that puppy I sold you as a pet IS gorgeous and great. 

I'm really turned off when someone asks me twice for Full Registration when they've never done anything in dogs before, including this one. I'm not one of those breeders who lets buyers "pay more" for full registration. Notice I never said he wasn't nice enough to be shown. He could be a Best in Show dog -- YOU are not a show home or the type of home I would trust having a dog on full registration to breed. I've been burned in the past by homes who promised to show and get all the clearances done. I don't care if other puppies in the litter, that I did not keep to show, are shown in conformation. My pet puppies are just for loving. You can show then in many other venues just like I suggested.

I send hundreds of photos, and dozens of video clips to my buyers before they pick or pick up their puppies. The number of photos received from you: Zero. 

The number of updates I received from you, before you asked twice for Full Registration: Zero. 

I have even sent photos after you took your puppy home of my puppies that I kept to update everyone with litter mates: 
SpottyBevySydneyCanary pictures by mattiaci - Photobucket 
No reply from you with photos.

You like to put your opinion out there and when people do not agree with you, you don't want to hear any of it. I will not be changing the registration from Limited and the contract from Neutered to Full Registration. Your behavior just cements this. I find it odd you are so insistent I change his registration when you've only gone to an obedience class (which most of my wonderful buyers do anyways) yet you never talked about doing performance events. And sorry, but that person teaching your class is not a "professional handler." I have more show wins in my pinkie than that woman has had in her entire show career. And someone who got into Dals because they required no grooming, isn't likely going to hack it showing a golden with Clint Livingston and Diana Mason, to name only two Professional Handlers showing in the same state, amongst other great breeders and handlers who show goldens in CO.

Here is my first reply:

Hi Deb, 

Thanks for the update. You can show him in several venues and a limited registered pet, neutered:

https://classic.akc.org/events/index.cfm?nav_area=events

Thanks,

Florence



On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 8:00 AM, Debra Turski <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Florence
Jackson is from the Bevy Spotty litter.
I haven't registered him yet.
I'm waiting to see if he'll be suitable for a show dog.
He's amazing.
If I do decide to show him, how do I obtain a full registration?
I have a woman that is helping me train him.
She does show and breed Dalmatians.
Thanks
Deb>> 

Here is my second reply going in more detail 6 days later when you were still trying to manipulate me into changing his registration below. (The stud owner thought it was great):

Hi Debra,

Please read my e-mail in the nicest way possible. My "tone" is always hard to put in an e-mail:

The average cost for finishing a championship on a golden is $5,000- $7,000. This is one of the reasons I have stated on my website that I don't sell show puppies to people who have never shown dogs before, meaning they have titled, or finished the championship on a dog before.



The main reason I don't sell puppies on full registation to anyone that has the money is:
I certainly don't spend thousands per dog showing them and getting health clearances on them to have my kennel name drug through the mud by people breeding and selling dogs them wily-nily. I don't spend all of this money so other can do nothing or little, and use my work and bloodlines for profit.

You have not demonstrated any of these qualities of doing hard work like a home I would be interested in selling a show puppy to. It's also clearly stated on my website that getting "full registration" is not something that you just "pay more money" for.

For example: you aren't a member of any golden club, all-breed club, or other dog club etc. Taking your dog to an obedience class does not make you a show home. It is a huge undertaking to finish a championship on a golden and get all four clearances.

Stud dog owners, like the owner of GCh.Spotty who is the sire of your puppy, also only breed to dogs owned by bitch owners will sell pets on spay/neuter contracts and AKC limited registration. They too, do not want their kennel name tarnished by people are breeding dogs who are not shown, finished, not members of dog clubs, selling puppies wily nily to other people who are not responsible like we are.

This is also why I also have a damages clause in my contract, and use it.

The handler I use in that area is Clint Livingston, who lives in CO.

Clint & Karen Livingston, Professional Dog Show Handling

Thanks,

Florence


On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Debra Turski <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Florence,
I've changed my mind.
Is it possible to draw up a new contract for a show dog? I'd be
willing to pay the difference.
I found out that the person that's been helping me is a professional handler.
Her name is Jena Zafiratos. You may know her.
She's offered to speak with you.
Her phone number is 303 459-woof.

If it's not possible to change the contract, I'm willing to accept it.
I love Jackson and do not wish to jeopardize my ownership.
Deb>>

Here is your juvenile reply. No, Okay I'll join the GRCA, local clubs and do performance to show you I'm a responsible person who gets why you don't want your kennel name in pedigrees of BYB's:

Florence
No matter how I read it, there's no way that response was in good will.
Just a yes or no, not a tirade. (tirade [taɪˈreɪd] n 1. a long angry
speech or denunciation).
I will not show Jackson. I will neuter him per our agreement.
I had no intent on making money from Jackson, nor on breeding him.
I just wanted to show him with the help of a professional handler.

Please Do Not Respond
Deb>>


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I had the same experience as Florence. You don't hear from someone for months and then they show up,out of the woodwork demanding full registration ... Like I said earlier if the owner had asked to wait to neuter and got other than conformation titles, my mind would have been open. In fact, in my case, the owner criticized me that I had not travelled to her house one hour away. Last I looked, the owness was on her to bring him to me so I could see him....


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I think some dogs are sold on limited registration because the buyers are clueless about the ins and outs of breeding. Maybe the dog IS nice enough to show in conformation, but you need an owner who has the means and a clue.....


----------



## khrios (May 5, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> CONGRATS!! :dblthumb2
> 
> Any pictures??


This is Emma...at just 8 weeks









And now... at 7 months


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Wow! She is stunning! What a lovely girl. Congratulations!


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I will be honest... I can't imagine ever talking to a puppy person in the tone of those emails. She basically just told the puppy person that they weren't trustworthy and I think the tone was really quite rude. I also would love to see this breeders response to the second to last email because that was conveniently left out and judging by the tone of the first couple of emails I can only imagine... I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was a tirade. If you don't trust a puppy person, you don't trust a puppy person so how did they get a dog/puppy in the first place. 

I will do most anything to keep the peace with my puppy people so that I can keep track of my puppies. Even when I am upset with them or something they have done it is more important to me to have open channels of communication and know what is happening with the puppy. Talk about burning a bridge here .... 

There are ways to discourage people from showing or doing things without being mean. If you have trouble with the tone in an email then pick up the phone and call the puppy person to discuss. In the end you can easily say "I don't feel comfortable changing the registration right now but look if you put some titles on the dog, get involved in the local breed club and do some things with your dog then we can certainly talk about it again". 

Honestly I read the email and sat there thinking WOW... totally unecessary....


----------



## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Shalva said:


> I will be honest... I can't imagine ever talking to a puppy person in the tone of those emails. She basically just told the puppy person that they weren't trustworthy and I think the tone was really quite rude.
> 
> I agree with Shalva. I thought the tone was rude and hurtful. I also thought it was inappropriate to post the buyers full name and email address on the forum.
> 
> ...


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I have to say, if I had a litter and I hadn't spoken to a puppy buyer since they left my house (despite trying to keep in contact with them) and then the first contact was asking to change the dog for full registration, I'm not sure they'd get a much nicer response from me. If they had been in contact saying they were interested in getting titles on their dogs and wanted the breeder to evaluate him for showing, then eventually brought up the subject of changing to full registration I imagine it would have been met with a different response. If they had stayed in contact with the breeder and at some point said "we're interested in showing our dog, how do you feel about that? Can you tell us what that requires?" again, I imagine it would have been met with a different response. But mentioning full registration in the first communication just stinks of trying to breed the dog with no intention of actually showing him, IMO.

It sounds like the breeder was not pleased with the puppy buyer's lack of communication before any of these recent communications transpired. But then, to add insult to injury, the first communication was the puppy buyer TELLING the breeder she is waiting to see if he'd be "suitable for a show dog" and that they had him evaluated by a "professional handler".....um, what? This dog was sold as a pet, not a show dog. I think it would be disconcerting to know that a puppy buyer was out there saying they wanted to show this puppy that she deemed to be pet quality. I think her reaction was completely justified.


----------



## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Perhaps she could have tried to be light in her response. I bought two dogs on spay/neuter contracts and would never think of asking for that to be changed. 

No one can deem tone in an email, that is why email is the worst tool for communication when there may be a problem with communication. 

However, I have seen people right here on this forum be even more rude over subjects that do not even involve a puppy they have bred or even know.


----------



## Mattiaci (Aug 26, 2008)

Shalva,

Sorry to burst your bubble, you insinuate there was another response and that it was a tirade. I was quite clear that I was posting the two, only two replies that exist. You do love the emotional drama enough to try to create something that simply, doesn't exist.

You haven't produced anything but a CCA, BN and CGC according to K9data. I'm sure you would think it was great if one of your buyers did ant to do something with their puppies. You should too. I'm sure there are thousands of posts on here from you. (I just looked and it looks like there are 1,950) If you spent more time working and showing your dogs, you could accomplish much more than a BN, CGC and CCA in your breeding program.

Florence


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Mylissik, I absolutely told her if she got titles (I do not count a CGC which he didn't have anyway), I would reconsider. However, she bought the pup with housewarming money, she did not have a lot of disposable income. Conformation showing is a money sink. I know from having a beautiful bitch that is a Can Ch,finished with 10 AKC points and no championship... I think that she was getting positive comments from people who probably asked if she was going to breed him..Sooo after not hearing from her for six months after I told her to give me the puppy back and I would refund her money(another story), she emails me and says she wants full registration to "show him". Because she knew I would not consider any breeding or full registration unless the dog competed in some venue. At the time, my husband was her vet and my OTCH trainer friend trained her and her dog, so I heard about him thru them... She was adamant... As far as I know, I don't thnk she had ever even been to any kind of dog show....


Thanks. As I said I was just curious. Your reaction was well warranted.


----------



## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Mattiaci said:


> AKA Shalva,
> 
> Sorry to burst your bubble, you insinuate there was another response and that it was a tirade. I was quite clear that I was posting the two, only two replies that exist. You do love the emotional drama enough to try to create something that simply, doesn't exist.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

We're going to close this thread bc it is now mainly personal attacks and not productive.


----------

