# Breeder responsibilities for health problems



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I would look at your contract to see what it says regarding health issues.


----------



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

ok, i'll see if i can find it. what is typical?


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

You can contract or not contract for almost anything you want....so I'm not sure there is a typical response. I'm sure others with more experience can chime in on what they've seen.


----------



## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

If I remember correctly, your pup came a good breeder. Hopefully even if it's not in the contract they'll still be able to support you in some way.

Is an underbite considered a congenital issue?


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Unless something was specifically spelled out at the time oof the sale, other than the dog had a "level" bite there is no "typical" responsibility on the breeder's part. Did the breeder "discount" the selling price due to the bite? 
It is not normal for an under bite to require such extreme treatment. Maybe get a second opinion just to be sure.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The breeder may want to see the pup's bite for herself or choose a specialist to look. One of our breeders did refund the full purchase price for bilateral elbow dysplasia, but she wanted the OFA elbows done first, a copy of the xray for her files, and to talk with the ortho vet- which was reasonable IMO. Will your pup have any further health issues? Sorry you are going through this- it is tough when something is wrong with a baby. What does your contract say?


----------



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I just looked in all our paperwork, and we don't have a contract, at least nothing we saved.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I work with a fellow vet who has a poodle who as a pup had all kinds of tooth issues. He had a dental cyst in his mouth and needed teeth pulled... it was her responsibility, not the breeder's. I would also get a second opinion. In my experience, fixing dental issues in young dogs just does not happen that often.


----------



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

We are getting a second opinion tomorrow. 

We did not get a discount on her. She was $1500 plus travel expenses.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

So sorry- poor pupper. Did her mouth change lots? Does it look painful to you when you watch her chew?


----------



## iansgran (May 29, 2010)

Have you talked to the breeder? If she is very ethical she should refund the purchase price and you might come out close to even.


----------



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I would contact your breeder, but also get a second opinion. This is more of a question for your breeder, not us on GRF.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I have to agree with others, including Sally's Mom who is a vet, that it is VERY unusual for bite problems to be that serious in a young puppy. I have never heard of such a thing in a Golden, personally, and I have had Goldens with bad bites.

Jaw structure changes a lot as puppies grow, and the upper and lower jaw do not grow at the same rate.

Definitely get a second opinion, and let your breeder know.


----------



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

At 4 months, the puppy is not done teething, teeth are still coming in, and the head will continue to change as the dog matures. I would seek another opinion, and I would consider doing so in 2-3 months provided that the puppy isn't having any pain from the underbite (which seems unlikely). 

Contact your breeder, only she will know what she will cover. Your breeder is certainly reputable, so please talk to her privately. Sometimes a dog develops an issue, there is just so much unknown about mode of inheritance and genetics still.


----------



## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Tahnee GR said:


> I have to agree with others, including Sally's Mom who is a vet, that it is VERY unusual for bite problems to be that serious in a young puppy. I have never heard of such a thing in a Golden, personally, and I have had Goldens with bad bites.
> 
> Jaw structure changes a lot as puppies grow, and the upper and lower jaw do not grow at the same rate.
> 
> Definitely get a second opinion, and let your breeder know.


THIS! I would have said the same thing! Even with dogs that normally have underbites (bulldogs, boxers) they can live with it. It's odd that she had a "level" bite and now it's not. I would not do anything to her mouth yet as she is still growing.


----------



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

I talked to the breeder, she said she wouldn't refund any of the purchase price for any medical problems. She said she'd take the dog back and give us a refund, but that isn't something we'd consider doing.

Before I say who she is I'm going to get a second opinion and find out what all we need to do. The breeder has been great to this point, so I don't want to tarnish her reputation until I find out what the puppy definitely needs and what she is willing to refund me.

I don't know why she's having issues, and whether she's in pain. The dentist said she had divots where her upper teeth were hitting her lower gums, and that she will be more uncomfortable the larger her teeth get. He said that if we wait, the top teeth could somehow prevent the bottom teeth from erupting properly, and that could potentially make her lose some bottom teeth as well. He said not doing anything now is the worst thing we could do.

I asked a vet friend of mine (by phone, he couldn't see her), and he said that dogs are resilient, and he wouldn't do anything until I know for sure it was causing her problems.

I'm at a loss now, because the expert is telling me what I don't want to hear. I don't know if he's correct and that she realy needs this done right now, is looking to make a buck, or just errs on the side of recommending surgery because that's what he knows. He's a board certified vet dentist, so I feel that should account for something, it's just seems crazy to pull all those teeth on a puppy that age.


----------



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

chwtom said:


> I talked to the breeder, she said she wouldn't refund any of the purchase price for any medical problems. She said she'd take the dog back and give us a refund, but that isn't something we'd consider doing.
> 
> Before I say who she is I'm going to get a second opinion and find out what all we need to do. The breeder has been great to this point, so I don't want to tarnish her reputation until I find out what the puppy definitely needs and what she is willing to refund me.
> 
> ...


I would seek another opinion, preferably at a veterinary college if you have one nearby. If a refund for a medical problem is not in your contract, I wouldn't expect one. However, I would expect support, sympathy, & compassion from the breeder as you go through this potential problem. I am sure that you will receive that. 

I'm curious to see how a 2nd opinion and age impact what happens. Please keep us updated.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think the breeder is being reasonable. How could they have anticipated or prevented this? If she could neither predict nor prevent this, why should she be held liable. When you buy a pet you should assume its expenses unless it is genetic in nature and preventable by measures available to the breeder, or a communicable disease which may have come from the breeder. This is not someone's "fault." I also would seek a second opinion, this sounds really extreme to me, and at 4 months their mouths always do funky things.


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

As others have suggested, I would get a second (and maybe even a third) opinion. Share with them what you have been told so far - that there are divots where her upper teeth are hitting her lower gums. See for yourself if that is case. I would have a very difficult time electing surgery on such a young pup. I am so sorry you are having to deal with this. Take the time you need to learn what is going on with your pup's bite and the options that are available.


----------



## Huntersmom (Apr 28, 2011)

Just my opinion, but based on what we are going through here in Canada, unless it's stated in the contract that the pup is being sold free of any and all dental hygiene issues, you may be on your own so get three opinions and hope that perhaps there was an over-statement made by the initial vet and/or pet dental specialist that made the call.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

11 years ago, I was concerned that my Cookie might be developing an overbite(she was somewhere between 4 and 6 months). A wise collie breeder said,"The lower jaw always takes time to catch up." She was dead on. Cookie not only has gorgeous full dentition, but a perfect scissors bite. One of my clients got her E Cockers from a show breeder... the breeder felt the bites were off, so the deciduous incisors were pulled. Didn't fix the bite and in fact, the dog has a "wry" jaw (probably got a greenstick fracture in the process.) The vet I work with who has the poodle who has had extensive dental work as a young dog, didn't even get her pup until 5 months of age. I think he was around a year when everything was done.

A veterinary college if you have one might be the answer because they have multiple people who can do multiple things. For example, where I live, locally, we have oncologists, but they can only do chemo. So if I send a dog with a mast cell tumor, they will offer up chemo because that's what they do. They might never suggest radiation because they don't do it. If you go to a surgeon with a dog with ED or HD, they might offer up surgery because that is what they do.... I have seen collies, dachshunds, huskies etc with severe overbites that have never had any corrective dental work. So get more opinions.....


----------



## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Another vote here that surgery at this time is premature. The pup at 4 months is nowhere near done teething and the jaws are still growing. A breeder friend of mine had a pup go to a lovely home last year and they phoned her in a panic at around the same age--vet told them their pup's bite was terrible and her canines were going to grow into the roof of her mouth, she was going to be maimed and in lifelong pain, etc etc, and she needed expensive dental surgery to fix it. Long story short: My friend managed to calm them down, no surgery was done, the pup continued to grow *and now has a perfect bite*.

Your pup is a baby--if the pup has pain now it is more likely due to teething. Give her a frozen Kong to chew on, as that will soothe those sore gums, and monitor her progress. Do not panic and do surgery that may not be necessary! Unfortunately some vets (not all or even most!!) are to eager to start cutting, and I find some of the dental specialists are the most extreme--one pulled *all* of the teeth out of my friend's Cavalier when she had just gone in for a cleaning without gaining permission to do so!


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

My lab Belle has a SEVERE under bite. No one said anything to us when she was a pup, we found out later had we pulled her puppy canines at the time of her spay (6 months) it may have helped the problem. However... she is 8 years old, and other than she drools pretty bad, she has NO issues and never had surgery. I don't know that it is a big deal. Yes you can pull the teeth and it can help the jaw readjust. However at 4 months... the teeth may come out on their own and be fixed by nature. I think it too sounds too premature for surgery. 

I just wanted to mention some dogs do just fine with an under bite.


----------



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

As I said in the original post, I don't want to turn this into a debate on what I should do about her teeth. I respect the opinions of everyone here, but this is a medical decision made by us and the professionals who are seeing her. We are getting second and third opinions before we do anything. It's great to hear that other dogs have done fine with underbites, but I'm sure you all understand that each dog is different, and nobody here is seeing our dog's mouth. 

The vet we saw today for a 3rd opinion suggested we ask the breeder to help pay for some of these expenses (I didn't ask him, he suggested it). I talked to the breeder, and she is resistent to do anything. First she said she wouldn't give any money, that she'd only buy back the dog if we didn't want her. Then she said she would only give me money back if she got to help make the decisions on what we decided to do. She said we were doing unneccessary surgery, which bothered me, because I would NEVER do anything to a dog unless I was absolutely sure it was the best thing to do for the dog. I would always err on the side of not intervening.

I'm just sad because I previously really enjoyed my relationship with the breeder and I feel like this has ruined it. Her last note to me was kind of insulting and suggested that I wasn't keeping our dog's best interests in mind the way she would, or that we weren't capable of making the right choices.. It's just depressing, because we already have enough to deal with in our decisions to make about our puppy, and now we have to deal with the relationship with the breeder devolving.


----------



## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I can understand that you are feeling frustrated but I do hope that you tyake the advice of the dog owners on this site and wait before you do any kind of surgery. Your pup is still growing give her a few months then have her mouth checked again. A human dentist doesnt make major decisions with a childs mouth becasue the child is still growing the same for your pup.


----------



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

At this time we are having the retained puppy teeth pulled but we are waiting a couple months before making any decisions on her permanent teeth.


----------



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

chwtom said:


> At this time we are having the retained puppy teeth pulled but we are waiting a couple months before making any decisions on her permanent teeth.


 
Glad to see you taking the conservative route. 

Please don't let this affect your relationship with your breeder. 

At 4-5 months, she doesn't have retained puppy teeth. They ARE her puppy teeth. They aren't supposed to fall out until 4-5 months.


----------



## chwtom (Feb 25, 2011)

From what I understand they are considered retained puppy teeth if they are still there when the adult teeth are in and are causing them to come in the wrong location. 

As I said, I am not looking for a debate on her teeth, just what the breeder is expected to do in situations like this.


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I am very sorry your pup and yourself are going through this issue, I know it is not easy. 
This may not be the popular response but I will post it anyway.
What the breeder should be "expected" to do is prior to breeding, is evaluate the sire and dam both physically and temperament wise to provide the best odds of producing healthy (physical and temperament) pups. And if after doing this, the breeder should be up front and honest about any issues that may have arisen despite this diligence. Lastly if there is any kind of contract/health guarantee it should be all spelled out in writing to avoid any confusion. There are no guarantees unfortunately when we are discussing breeding. 
In cases such as this there are some breeders that will do more than what is covered by above but it is not fair to "expect" one to do so.


----------



## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Does she have adult teeth coming in and her puppy teeth are still there?


----------



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I am so sorry to read this. I know you have seen the vet but if she is acting fine I would wait if it were me. I have had a few vets tell me weird things before, and not all vets are equal or good. Some even contradict each other (which is frustrating).


----------



## unaffected (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm sorry you are dealing with this issue.

In our contract, the breeder says that if within 1 year the pup develops any health problems, she will buy the dog back. My mother-in-law got a pup from the same breeder, and her pup has severe hip dysplasia. The breeder offered to give my mother-in-law another dog, which I suppose is a nice gesture, but not incredibly logical, considering she will be dealing with surgeries, etc for the hip issue.

Best of luck to you.


----------



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Again I am sorry you are going through this. I hope having the puppy teeth pulled helps your pup and surgery is not needed. 

As for the breeder responsibilities....I think your contact with the breeder and your contract should be fairly clear. I know I had a friend who had a puppy come back, she returned the persons deposit even though it was not required. However that was her decision at that moment. Not all breeders would do that. 

I am sorry you have this situation. I know it is hard emotionally to see a pup not quite right.


----------



## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

It is usually a sign of a bad breeder/contract to want the dog back. These pp know no one would give their dig back so it's pretty much like no guarantee at all...


----------

