# First day at training class...what would you do.



## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

After a long search and lots of references we found a trainer we feel comfortable with. She (well her dogs) hold a bunch of different awards in obedience, tracking, schutzund, and drug/explosive detection. She is very nice to talk to and multiple friends of ours have used her with breeds ranging from pits to boxers to rotties. My 7.5 month old pups first class is tuesday night. My questions are as follows: 
Any tips for starting a new class/what would you have done different?
Also she offers more advanced classes for down the line and I was wondering what these terms mean: Open - introduces the HIGH JUMP, BROAD JUMP, adn the retreive. What are these activities??
Also what are Directed jumping and retreive taught under her utility course. 
And last but not least...what do these titles mean C.D., H.I.T, T.T?
Thanks...


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

is she having you bring the dogs to the first class? and, how large is the class?

things i would have done differently - not used a facility that trains GSDs for police work. the first place we took Faith to did and they were way over the top with harsh corrections - all dogs were required to have choke collars on during class.

so, i would ask that - what are her methods of correction?


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

The dogs are coming the first day of class. I want to say she limits the classes to 6 teams. Martingayle style collars/chokers are used along with PROPER collar corrections. Per discussion with previous pupils she is a kind and gentle woman who knows the RIGHT way to correct. I have always trained the pups myself but this boy is a bit smarter than my others so I want to really see what he can do. Also positive ONLY doesn't work for THIS dog he needs a mixture of love and discipline. Before starting this class and as a very young pup it was obviously Positive only clicker training which is great but he needs a little more as he is getting older.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

CD is companion dog, HIT is high in trial and not sure what T.T., maybe a Tracking title, or maybe even Tellington Touch. CD is the first title you earn in Obedience. Consists of Heel on leash, figure eight, stand for exam, heel off leash, recall, and the long sit and long down. A HIT is an award given to the handler and dog team that scores the highest score in the regular classes at a trial. There is also a High Combined award which is given to the team who scores the highest combined score in Open B and Utility B. Open is after you complete your Companion Dog title, everything is done off leash, retrieving the dumbbell is done on the flat and over the high jump, the dog also jumps the broad jump and the recall is done with a drop on command. Also the stays are done with the handler going out of sight. After Open you go on to Utility, consists of signals, scent articles, directed retrieve, moving stand, go outs, and directed jumping, in which the dog is commanded to go straight out to a wall between the high and bar jump, when commanded turn and sits and then on command from the handler jumps first one jump, goes out again and jumps the other. There is a book you can get from AKC regarding all the obedience rules, or you can go on line to their website and download all the rules, takes a lot of paper to print them out though. You used to get your first Rules book free, I'm not sure what it is now. Welcome to Dog Obedience! I hope you love it as much as I do. There is such wonderful rewards in training your dog even if you aren't going to compete. There is also a sport called Rally, lot of fun, novice people find it a good way to get your feet wet and gain ring experience. Sounds like your trainer is a good one, that is a good way to start off.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FishinBuddy said:


> After a long search and lots of references we found a trainer we feel comfortable with. She (well her dogs) hold a bunch of different awards in obedience, tracking, schutzund, and drug/explosive detection. She is very nice to talk to and multiple friends of ours have used her with breeds ranging from pits to boxers to rotties. My 7.5 month old pups first class is tuesday night. My questions are as follows:
> Any tips for starting a new class/what would you have done different?
> Also she offers more advanced classes for down the line and I was wondering what these terms mean: Open - introduces the HIGH JUMP, BROAD JUMP, adn the retreive. What are these activities??
> Also what are Directed jumping and retreive taught under her utility course.
> ...


Keep in mind that all of those breeds: pits, boxers, rotties and GSDs are very different than golden. Not to paint all Schutzund trainers in one brush, but IN GENERAL they are training their dogs IN high drive with very different methods of training. I've never met a Schutzund trainer that was a "positive" trainer - you won't find clickers or a lot of food. You will find a lot of compulsion training and a lot of physical corrections. I'm not arguing that those methods are good or bad - just that they are not the same. My current dogs would shut down with physical corrections - even if done properly (I'm relatively sure anyway - they haven't had any). Have you been to watch one of their classes? That's an important place to start. Even when I go to seminars there are things I will and won't do to my dog - On the list of won'ts are leash corrections or physically positioning my dogs. That's me and my personal preferences and is based on my own theory of operant behavior, classical conditioning and what I think is fair play in the game of obedience (and agility).

My first golden was compulsively trained...I do sometimes wonder what he would have done if I had found other methods of training....We'll never know - and that makes me sad sometimes...

Open refers to a competitive level of obedience - it's the dog show class from which you earn a CDX (after three qualifying scores at that level). There's a retrieve of a dumbbell on the flat, there's a broad jump which (for goldens) is three or four telescoping hurdles - 6-8" off the ground but twice the height of their withers - so a 24" dog jumps a 48" broad jump. High jump is part of the retrieve (of a dumbbell) over a panel jump - again the height of the dog's withers.

Directed jumping is a utility exercise where you send your dog to the other side of the ring (between two jumps), ask them to sit and then command them to jump over one or the other then return to front. The directed retrieve is three like objects (glove) that are in two corners and then the middle of a ring wall - the judge tells the handler which glove to retrieve, the handler sends the dog to that glove - and he has to get the right one...I've over simplified of course...

CD is an AKC companion dog - the novice level title for obedience. HIT is high in trial - of all the dogs competing that day in all of the classes that dog had the highest score. TT is temperament tested - what passes a TT varies from breed to breed - a GSD should be protective, a golden should not, etc etc...

Are you enrolled in a novice obedience class? In this case novice might not mean beginner - it might be pre-competition and you might very well be expected to have some solid basics heeling, stays, stand for exams, etc etc...which is not the right place for a puppy starting out - if only because it could be VERY frustrating for you to be in a class you aren't yet ready to be working in.

Erica


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

my4goldens said:


> CD is companion dog, HIT is high in trial and not sure what T.T., maybe a Tracking title, or maybe even Tellington Touch. CD is the first title you earn in Obedience. Consists of Heel on leash, figure eight, stand for exam, heel off leash, recall, and the long sit and long down. A HIT is an award given to the handler and dog team that scores the highest score in the regular classes at a trial. There is also a High Combined award which is given to the team who scores the highest combined score in Open B and Utility B. Open is after you complete your Companion Dog title, everything is done off leash, retrieving the dumbbell is done on the flat and over the high jump, the dog also jumps the broad jump and the recall is done with a drop on command. Also the stays are done with the handler going out of sight. After Open you go on to Utility, consists of signals, scent articles, directed retrieve, moving stand, go outs, and directed jumping, in which the dog is commanded to go straight out to a wall between the high and bar jump, when commanded turn and sits and then on command from the handler jumps first one jump, goes out again and jumps the other. There is a book you can get from AKC regarding all the obedience rules, or you can go on line to their website and download all the rules, takes a lot of paper to print them out though. You used to get your first Rules book free, I'm not sure what it is now. Welcome to Dog Obedience! I hope you love it as much as I do. There is such wonderful rewards in training your dog even if you aren't going to compete. There is also a sport called Rally, lot of fun, novice people find it a good way to get your feet wet and gain ring experience. Sounds like your trainer is a good one, that is a good way to start off.


Wow...thats a lot of stuff.......


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

FishinBuddy said:


> Also positive ONLY doesn't work for THIS dog he needs a mixture of love and discipline. Before starting this class and as a very young pup it was obviously Positive only clicker training which is great but he needs a little more as he is getting older.


you can have discipline without harsh corrections. i am just speaking from experience - the kind of place that trains for the things you are referring to might be too harsh for your dog.

i know for mine, the choke collar corrections made her shut down and panic. when i got her into the next class (different place) that only used verbal corrections and lots of praise it was 1,000 times better.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FishinBuddy said:


> Also positive ONLY doesn't work for THIS dog he needs a mixture of love and discipline. Before starting this class and as a very young pup it was obviously Positive only clicker training which is great but he needs a little more as he is getting older.


Remember that positive only - doesn't have to be permissive. I think as many people misunderstand "positive" trainers as they misunderstand "correction-based" trainers. I would put myself at about a 4 where 1 is purely positive and 10 is Kohler's method. I don't physically correct my dogs, I don't yell, I don't pop - but they know when they are wrong and we fix it. I don't ignore bad behavior but I am **** sure to reward good behavior. I let my dogs make mistakes but don't punish them for mistakes - trying shows me that they are thinking - I want my dogs to think! We fix the mistakes and then reward the successes. Some of the 8's-10's on that scale tell the dogs where to be - do not want them to think about what they are being asked and are punative when a dog makes a mistake. There are some dogs that are well suited by that - IME most GSDs fall into this category - also IME most goldens do not.
Erica


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> Keep in mind that all of those breeds: pits, boxers, rotties and GSDs are very different than golden. Not to paint all Schutzund trainers in one brush, but IN GENERAL they are training their dogs IN high drive with very different methods of training. I've never met a Schutzund trainer that was a "positive" trainer - you won't find clickers or a lot of food. You will find a lot of compulsion training and a lot of physical corrections. I'm not arguing that those methods are good or bad - just that they are not the same. My current dogs would shut down with physical corrections - even if done properly (I'm relatively sure anyway - they haven't had any). Have you been to watch one of their classes? That's an important place to start. Even when I go to seminars there are things I will and won't do to my dog - On the list of won'ts are leash corrections or physically positioning my dogs. That's me and my personal preferences and is based on my own theory of operant behavior, classical conditioning and what I think is fair play in the game of obedience (and agility).
> 
> My first golden was compulsively trained...I do sometimes wonder what he would have done if I had found other methods of training....We'll never know - and that makes me sad sometimes...
> 
> ...


Wow Great advice.....from eveyone also thank you. She actually doesn't train schutzund for people she just is experienced in schutzund training and competing. She trains for Obedience and Competition Obedience. The class I am enrolled in is beginner obedience: This course is structed to supply the owner with information and techniques to teach their dog toe basic obedience commands. Heel, sit, come, down and stay. This course also helps to create a bond of trust and respect between the dog and owner (straight from her manual) The next class is advanced obedience which is geared toward eventual off leash control and then comes Novice Obedience. She does use collar corrections but that is what MY dog needs. He is very strong and independant and you can have treats overflowing out of your pockets dripping blood and peices of filet mignon and he will care less. It's funny because our previous foster (pitbull) actually responds great to positive only training and shuts down if corrected. This crazy golden needs some correction. She is not excessively harsh either. Our friends dog has hip dysplasia and went to her with amazing results. I too wouldn't want excessively harsh corrections.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Yep, thought I might have overwhelmed you with all the info I posted. Guess my enthusiasm got ahead of me. Your first classes will be learning basic obedience. Even if you don't decide to go on competitively, everything you learn and teach your dog is beneficial. I have one word of advice, if your instructor tells you something regarding either teaching or correcting your dog and it just doesn't feel right, don't do it. There are many ways of training, many methods, some fit your dog and some don't. For example when I started doing this 9 years ago I was told by my instructor to correct my dog in a way that didn't seem appropriate but I did it cause I was new and inexperienced. Looking back now it was the wrong thing to do. So I learned if something doesn't feel right, don't do it. Good luck, you are going to have such fun.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

Faith's mommy said:


> you can have discipline without harsh corrections. i am just speaking from experience - the kind of place that trains for the things you are referring to might be too harsh for your dog.
> 
> i know for mine, the choke collar corrections made her shut down and panic. when i got her into the next class (different place) that only used verbal corrections and lots of praise it was 1,000 times better.


I agree 100%. I really believe it depends on the dog. She doesn't train schutzund, she trains Competition obedience but in her bragging about her titles and experience talks about schutzund. And with my dog he responds well to physical corrections. At the same time I do not want to rip his head off with a choker and then kick him in the sides...... I have had great results with a collar pop and that is what works for me.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

my4goldens said:


> Yep, thought I might have overwhelmed you with all the info I posted. Guess my enthusiasm got ahead of me. Your first classes will be learning basic obedience. Even if you don't decide to go on competitively, everything you learn and teach your dog is beneficial. I have one word of advice, if your instructor tells you something regarding either teaching or correcting your dog and it just doesn't feel right, don't do it. There are many ways of training, many methods, some fit your dog and some don't. For example when I started doing this 9 years ago I was told by my instructor to correct my dog in a way that didn't seem appropriate but I did it cause I was new and inexperienced. Looking back now it was the wrong thing to do. So I learned if something doesn't feel right, don't do it. Good luck, you are going to have such fun.


I think that is great advice. It has been a while since I took a class and I am looking forward to it. I would not do anything I didn't feel comfortable with or thought may hurt my dog. PROPER leash corrections I do feel comfortable with. I think once people hear Schutzund they think the worst. From the references I checked she is a sweet dog lover and her corrections are not harsh...haha...I feel I am defending her...


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Funny you should mention that...

When I got Rusty in San Diego, I had to go into the hospital for about a month due to my back injuries.

I needed to board him anyway, so I decided to do it at a training station. They were the same place that trained dogs for the San Diego Police Department.

They did a wonderful job, but knew where to draw the line. I didn't need a drug-sniffing, crook-eating, bandit chasing Golden 



Faith's mommy said:


> is she having you bring the dogs to the first class? and, how large is the class?
> 
> things i would have done differently - not used a facility that trains GSDs for police work. the first place we took Faith to did and they were way over the top with harsh corrections - all dogs were required to have choke collars on during class.
> 
> so, i would ask that - what are her methods of correction?


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

FishinBuddy said:


> I agree 100%. I really believe it depends on the dog. She doesn't train schutzund, she trains Competition obedience but in her bragging about her titles and experience talks about schutzund. And with my dog he responds well to physical corrections. At the same time I do not want to rip his head off with a choker and then kick him in the sides...... I have had great results with a collar pop and that is what works for me.


you will know best what is too much for your dog, so go with what you feel comfortable with.

i knew it wasn't going to work for us the first night we were there, but i didn't know enough then to get out of that class. so, when i see folks signing up for classes i always try to warn them about places that may use harsh corrections that may actually do damage to the dog and their relationship.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I don't know what all that stuff means. Silly noob I be 

I should read up on it. Gilmours Pop has just about every letter in the alphabet on his name  What a dog!


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## Faith's mommy (Feb 26, 2007)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Funny you should mention that...
> 
> When I got Rusty in San Diego, I had to go into the hospital for about a month due to my back injuries.
> 
> ...


 
 i'm glad you had a positive experience. the place i'm speaking of didn't seem to understand that none of our dogs were training for combat work.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

Faith's mommy said:


> you will know best what is too much for your dog, so go with what you feel comfortable with.
> 
> i knew it wasn't going to work for us the first night we were there, but i didn't know enough then to get out of that class. so, when i see folks signing up for classes i always try to warn them about places that may use harsh corrections that may actually do damage to the dog and their relationship.


And that is admirable.......I talked to a few other trainers who seemed too harsh/wanted to use e-collars but I don't feel my pup needs that. He needs some correction and a bunch of love.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> They did a wonderful job, but knew where to draw the line. I didn't need a drug-sniffing, crook-eating, bandit chasing Golden


LMAO......
Too freakin funny.....I too don't need a K-9 Killing machine... A dog who could find my keys or locate the remote...now that's what I need.


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## perdie (Oct 30, 2008)

The only advice I can offer is be patient with your little guy! My pup is the same age as yours&when he first started class back when he was 13weeks old he had ups&downs. The ups were when he won an award for obedience&attention the down was the very night he recieved his award he turned into a demon&got the zoomies for the whole hour!!!


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

perdie said:


> The only advice I can offer is be patient with your little guy! My pup is the same age as yours&when he first started class back when he was 13weeks old he had ups&downs. The ups were when he won an award for obedience&attention the down was the very night he recieved his award he turned into a demon&got the zoomies for the whole hour!!!


Hey If I got an award I too would run around like crazy!


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## june007 (Jan 3, 2009)

very funny and true!!!!


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

FishinBuddy said:


> LMAO......
> Too freakin funny.....I too don't need a K-9 Killing machine... A dog who could find my keys or locate the remote...now that's what I need.


I've trained both behaviors..."where are my keys?" and "who's got the remote". 
The only time I get worried is when he searches and comes back without the keys - that means they are not in the house (that's bad). One morning he ran to the front door and barked - "Dude, where are my KEYS?" - Bark, Bark (he's not a barker). I open the door - there are the keys - in the deadbolt...on the outside of the door...<sigh> He got extra cookies for that one.
Erica


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> I've trained both behaviors..."where are my keys?" and "who's got the remote".
> The only time I get worried is when he searches and comes back without the keys - that means they are not in the house (that's bad). One morning he ran to the front door and barked - "Dude, where are my KEYS?" - Bark, Bark (he's not a barker). I open the door - there are the keys - in the deadbolt...on the outside of the door...<sigh> He got extra cookies for that one.
> Erica


These dogs never stop amazing us.....and to think I didn't want a golden initially........


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

HIT can also be Herding Instinct Test (for shepherds & rotties) and TT is Temperament Tested which is a big thing with the schutzhund breeds.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Good for you for doing your research before signing up for a class!

Here's my one thing to watch for - IMO, "competiton skills" are very different from "pet manners". I expect my dog to have both, as we do compete in obedience. However, as an example, the way I'd teach a formal recall for the obedience ring will do very little to ensure that my dog turns on a dime and leaves a distraction when off leash and I've called him to me. Just make sure you're getting the "life skills" you wish to build with your pup. 

And most importantly - have FUN working with your dog and NEVER be afriad to speak up or opt out of an exercise or portion of training that just doesn't feel right for you.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Good for you for doing your research before signing up for a class!
> 
> Here's my one thing to watch for - IMO, "competiton skills" are very different from "pet manners". I expect my dog to have both, as we do compete in obedience. However, as an example, the way I'd teach a formal recall for the obedience ring will do very little to ensure that my dog turns on a dime and leaves a distraction when off leash and I've called him to me. Just make sure you're getting the "life skills" you wish to build with your pup.
> 
> And most importantly - have FUN working with your dog and NEVER be afriad to speak up or opt out of an exercise or portion of training that just doesn't feel right for you.


Awesome Advice as usual. I am never afraid to speak my mind (which is not always a good trait). I don't know if I have it in ME to ever compete. Im sure it takes a LOT of time/skill and im sure my dog could do it but I think I might be the weak link who holds him back. Who knows. The first class in basic obedience to make the dog a good part of the family. Then there is an advanced class which is geared to off leash training. All this must be perfected before admittance into the Novice obedience and from what I hear she is particular with who is accepted into those classes and the class sizes are only a few dogs. My biggest worry is that the dog is not going to listen to me at all and run around like a crazy pup, pull on the leash and be very distracted.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

GRF is acting up today????? My post doubled??


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well as usual I am a little late to the party. 
Obviously you are not new to dogs and it sounds like you have done your homework in checking with several trainers and talking at length with them. So you were able to find one who appears at least to have a philosophy for training similar to yours. To me it sounds like a recipe for great success. 
The only thing I will warn you about is that places/trainers like this always seem to have very contagious "bugs" that thrive there. And these trainers are very quick and willing to let you get bitten by them. The next thing you know you have what is sometimes called "Obedience Fever" and your life is cahnged for ever. There are match shows, wardrobes to match your dog, enough different leashes that you can use a difeerent one every day of the month. The backyard starts filling up with differnet jumps. You go to classes several times a week. And all your "weekend chores" wait to get done during the week whn not at class. So now you *HAVE *been warned! :


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> ...the backyard starts filling up with differnet jumps. You go to classes several times a week. And all your "weekend chores" wait to get done during the week whn not at class. So now you *HAVE *been warned! :


You mean I still have to do chores? My house, lawn, pool and car used to be spotless - all the time - you'd never have known a dog lived there (other than the heaping baskets of toys, the beds, etc). Now...well...lets just say you know that there are dogs in the house...


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

Don't be to stress about you pup actnig up the first night in a new class. You are in a new enviroment so it may take a few weeks for him to really settle down and be fully focused. Good trainers expect this and won't hold it against you so just relax if he acts up and it will get better.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Well as usual I am a little late to the party.
> Obviously you are not new to dogs and it sounds like you have done your homework in checking with several trainers and talking at length with them. So you were able to find one who appears at least to have a philosophy for training similar to yours. To me it sounds like a recipe for great success.
> The only thing I will warn you about is that places/trainers like this always seem to have very contagious "bugs" that thrive there. And these trainers are very quick and willing to let you get bitten by them. The next thing you know you have what is sometimes called "Obedience Fever" and your life is cahnged for ever. There are match shows, wardrobes to match your dog, enough different leashes that you can use a difeerent one every day of the month. The backyard starts filling up with differnet jumps. You go to classes several times a week. And all your "weekend chores" wait to get done during the week whn not at class. So now you *HAVE *been warned! :


hahah...I was a little concerned where the conversation was going at first. haha....we shall see. And yes she seems to share some of my ideas/methodologies about training which relate to THIS dog.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

I personally love shutzhund... Call me a nut if you will, and I'd never train my dog to do it, but it is an impressive thing to watch. 

But to me, a good trainer has a diverse background of breeds they've trained. While I'm sure it can be done, ever tried training a high drive GSD with food and a clicker? HA! Mine always turned his nose up and kept on working. So different methods are appropriate for different dogs. Just because there are leash corrections, does not make it bad. I think its great to be taught HOW to correct as many people think its as simple as sticking a slip collar on a dog (without realizing its on backwards!) and if the dog makes a mistake, you yank :doh:. 

It sounds like you'll do just fine! BJ


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## Thor0918 (Feb 28, 2008)

Hey, I went to class last night and Leo acted up the whole time. And he's on his 3rd session. Oh well....


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