# Forget About Being Alpha in the Pack...



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Love this article! 

http://dogcentral.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4936120

I'm just starting to read the Coppinger book, too...

Just passing it along for the good of dogs!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Very interesting reading. Thanks for sharing it!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Interesting stuff. And I just had my local bookstore order the book for me.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

THink I will stick with what works for me. Stcky to me: Don't buy!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't agree with the philosophy. Plus, I've seen packs of dogs...their is a leader of a pack in my opinion.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I very much tend to agree that there is in fact a "leader" of the "pack", as I have multiple dogs, and I also full well believe that there is one "dog leader", (manager), and one "CEO" (me). But I think it will be an interesting read and I am looking forward to getting the book.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Personally, I think the important "take home" message is that dogs are not wolves, and wolves themselves, don't vie for dominance as much as we have been made to believe. Therefore, attempting to communicate with our dog in "wolf ways" isn't necessairly the best plan.

I'll agree that dogs within a home set up a social structure.

I'll end with saying that to me, being the "leader" is just about controlling the resources and access to reinforcers.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Personally, I think the important "take home" message is that dogs are not wolves, and wolves themselves, don't vie for dominance as much as we have been made to believe. Therefore, attempting to communicate with our dog in "wolf ways" isn't necessairly the best plan.
> 
> I'll agree that dogs within a home set up a social structure.
> 
> I'll end with saying that to me, being the "leader" is just about controlling the resources and access to reinforcers.


I agree with everything here, Stephanie.


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## Prov31 (Aug 16, 2006)

Thanks for posting the information. It does sound very interesting. I just ordered the book from Amazon. I think there is a hierarchy in a dog pack and a human/dog pack. Sometimes I think we have gone too far to think that every dog move is an attempt to be the leader of the pack (and maybe with some dogs, it really is). But I have to look at our 2 dogs and analyze them for their own behavior.

Our 5 year old Golden, Annie, is the sweetest being on Earth. Period. She never tries to outrank me. She likes to lay in the middle of the kitchen floor when I'm cooking. I know that some trainers would say that is an attempt to dominate, etc. But I know her and know that she only wants to be extremely close to me. Her only desire is to please us. 

I think it is important to establish early on that the human is in charge. But I'm enjoying our dogs a lot more now that I have stopped looking at every little movement as if it might be a sign of dominance.


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Personally, I think the important "take home" message is that dogs are not wolves, and wolves themselves, don't vie for dominance as much as we have been made to believe. Therefore, attempting to communicate with our dog in "wolf ways" isn't necessairly the best plan.
> 
> I'll agree that dogs within a home set up a social structure.
> 
> I'll end with saying that to me, being the "leader" is just about controlling the resources and access to reinforcers.


I see being "pack leader" as a role of benevolence vs bullying.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> I very much tend to agree that there is in fact a "leader" of the "pack", as I have multiple dogs, and I also full well believe that there is one "dog leader", (manager), and one "CEO" (me). But I think it will be an interesting read and I am looking forward to getting the book.


I agree Laura.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Prov31 said:


> Our 5 year old Golden, Annie, is the sweetest being on Earth. Period. She never tries to outrank me. She likes to lay in the middle of the kitchen floor when I'm cooking. I know that some trainers would say that is an attempt to dominate, etc. But I know her and know that she only wants to be extremely close to me. Her only desire is to please us.


The idea that any trainer would suggest that choosing the lie in the middle of the kitchen when you're cooking is a vie for dominance is so silly to me! And I agree with you that many would say that. IMO, "dominance" is very much an over used and misunderstood term when it comes to dogs and dog training. I think unfortunately, dogs suffer because of it.

Dogs do what works. That's usually the answer behind what is labeled as the dog trying to assert dominance over the owner. We humans love to complicate and read an awful lot into behavior. Too bad we don't remember Occam's Razor in many of those circumstances:

_Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory. The principle is often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae ("law of parsimony" or "law of succinctness"): "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity".

This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

Originally a tenet of the reductionist philosophy of nominalism, it is more often taken today as a heuristic maxim (rule of thumb) that advises economy, parsimony, or simplicity, often or especially in scientific theories._

So, the dog in the kitchen? Wants to be near you. Likes that spot.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Sunshine Goldens said:


> I see being "pack leader" as a role of benevolence vs bullying.


Would mid expanding on that a little more?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

TheHooch said:


> Would mid expanding on that a little more?


To me, it's about asking the question of, "Am I influencing behavior by *enforcing* rules or *reinforcing* what I want?"


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## lovealways_jami (Apr 17, 2007)

Hmmm makes for good reading, but Im still unsure on how I feel.... I guess Ill read more into it


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

lovealways_jami said:


> Hmmm makes for good reading, but Im still unsure on how I feel.... I guess Ill read more into it


Ahhhh! And I think that's fantastic! That's what I'd hope the article would do... at the very least, introduce the idea that things might not be exactly how the masses have come to accept them.

Research the issue for yourself and come to the conclusion that's best for you!


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## Prov31 (Aug 16, 2006)

FlyingQuizini said:


> So, the dog in the kitchen? Wants to be near you. Likes that spot.


I completely agree! And the dog that is laying right at your feet cannot be getting into trouble any where else in the house!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Personally, I think the important "take home" message is that dogs are not wolves, and wolves themselves, don't vie for dominance as much as we have been made to believe. Therefore, attempting to communicate with our dog in "wolf ways" isn't necessairly the best plan.
> 
> I'll agree that dogs within a home set up a social structure.
> 
> I'll end with saying that to me, being the "leader" is just about controlling the resources and access to reinforcers.


I agree with that too. I'm not into wolf ways. I do think that dogs have a mentality of where they "stand" in the family though and behave according to where they think they are.


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## Buddy Banana (Aug 11, 2007)

There is also another great book called 'Dominance: Fact or Fiction?' by Barry Eaton.
It's available in the UK, not sure if it is in other countries.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominance-F..._sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1201131225&sr=8-2


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

Prov31 said:


> I completely agree! And the dog that is laying right at your feet cannot be getting into trouble any where else in the house!


I agree, plus the dog enjoys her presence, the fact that the dog follows her actually means that SHE is the pack leader and the dog must follow (so you beat the guy who told you this with his own theory).That's what dogs do..they follow alpha.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Buddy Banana said:


> There is also another great book called 'Dominance: Fact or Fiction?' by Barry Eaton.
> It's available in the UK, not sure if it is in other countries.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dominance-F..._sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1201131225&sr=8-2


Ahh, yes... I just found it on www.dogwise.com!


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## MisterBailey (Jun 28, 2007)

Interesting reading. I remember reading something similar in the book Merles Door. It was only touched on briefly, but he mentioned the studies of wolf packs in the wild and how they actually operate. I found it surprising and it made me rethink what I had read about training so far.
I'll keep an eye out for that book here, I'd like to read more on it.


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## Penny'smom (Mar 3, 2007)

I believe dogs are creatures of opportunity and therefore do what works to achieve their ends: generally that's food and attention.

Pennys lays her head in my lap when I eat. Keep in mind she is NOT an affectionate dog, not a cuddler. But she will suffer this indignity to get a crust of bread. I joking say "I just DON'T know why she does this" and then give her pinch of crust. When she wants this handout, she'll let me pet her, cuddle her head, in fact she'll let me do anything I want to her. Then when the sandwich is gone, she moves on to whomever is still eating or just lays down if no one is still eating. She takes advantage of the opportunity to get some food, albeit just a tidbit, and I take advantage of getting to cuddle a bit. It's nothing more than that.

Penny loves our dd. She trembles, squeaks, turns circles and generally turns into mush when dd daughter comes over. I've always wondered how Penny perceives her in our group...that Penny would be just as happy living with her. Until....I went to dd's without Penny and Penny arrived later with her Dad. Penny's first and most vociferous greeting was for ME, even though I was at dd's house and dd was standing right next to me. I don't know if Penny feels love or not, but whatever it is in our family, she feels it more for her dad and me than she does for the lesser members of her family.

I don't think we're alpha. We share the needs of our family by providing food, shelter, direction. Penny serves the family needs by warning of danger and then looks to us for protection. She's also good for a giggle or two everyday! It's symbiotic relationship.


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