# I'm planning on getting a shock collar for Applesauce.



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Have you actually tried extremely high value treats, like liverwurst? A regular treat or biscuit will not work when you have a high arousal dog.

My Danny, who just turned 5 yesterday, absolutely adores other dogs and goes ballistic when he sees them when he's on leash. He doesn't pull me though, he just bounces straight up and down at the end of the leash. When he was younger, I just used an easy walk harness on him.

I can't see over excitement as a reason to use a shock collar. From everything I have read here and on other forums where people use shock collars, they are used to reinforce something that the dog has already been trained to do, not to teach them to not do something. I would never use one on any of my dogs. I would rather put more into teaching them proper behavior. You are dealing with a puppy still, just a big puppy.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Just going to warn you: you will probably get a lot of negative replies to your post. 

I'm not sure how the e-collar is your "last resort." What else have you tried? A choke collar, a prong collar? The prong collar is extremely effective. Works for a lot of dogs. Also, the e-collar is used to reinforce already trained behaviors. Collar training takes careful introduction to make sure the dog understands the correction. Just shocking the dog randomly (and in the dog's head it will be random unless you take the time to collar condition) is not going to do anything but make your dog neurotic. I use an e-collar and I think it is very effective if used in the correct manner. I just want to make sure you understand that you can't just put it on and go. Even though I had collar conditioned a dog before, I had my friend help me on my new dog. It takes two people in the beginning to make sure the timing it right. We started with sit and went from there, slowly. If you have never used one before, please seek out a trainer who does and can guide you in the process.


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## eniseanas (Jul 1, 2011)

@Fostermom, we have tried saltless cheese, because she loves that stuff, and small pieces of hot dog.

@mlopez, we haven't tried the prong collar, it might stop her from pulling, but she will continue barking. Since we already trained her not to bark or chew randomly while indoors, she knows what 'quiet' and 'no bark' means, so we will certainly be reinforcing, or 'reminding' her with the e-collar. I appreciate your info, I'll take that into consideration. 

This was my last resort because she pulled my moms hand and hurt one of her tendons last week. My moms 54 so its not a matter of age or weakness. She's a pretty strong dog.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

In my opinion you are on the road to *DISASTER!!!!*

Unless you are fully experienced on the proper way to use an e-collar you will cause more problems. An e-collar is *NOT* a teaching tool. 

*PLEASE* reconsider and get some help from professional trainers.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> In my opinion you are on the road to *DISASTER!!!!*
> 
> Unless you are fully experienced on the proper way to use an e-collar you will cause more problems. An e-collar is *NOT* a teaching tool.
> 
> *PLEASE* reconsider and get some help from professional trainers.


Exactly what I was going to say. I can't see ANY reason to use a shock collar whatsoever. In my honest opinion, they should be banned.


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## eniseanas (Jul 1, 2011)

@AmbikaGR I don't know what you mean by disaster. Do you mean it will arouse her more? Id rather someone who has experience dealing with a high arousal dog because she's brought me to my wits end.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

It sounds like you've got your mind made up about the collar so the only thing I want to emphasize is..._*find a qualified trainer*_ to work with you with the collar. Don't just go out and buy one, slap it on your dog and start pushing buttons. If you do you will only make the situation worse. 

If you time it wrong your dog will associate the shock with seeing other dogs and you don't want them to think seeing other dogs is bad. So please, again, _*find a qualified trainer*_ in your area that has a ton of experience with e-collars.

I don't like e-collars and hate that any Joe Blow can walk into a store and buy one. I really think you should have to go through extensive training to ever use/buy one. Don't know how practical that is but it would save a lot of dogs a lot of horrible training techniques that do more bad than good. JMO...

Also, just wanted to add that you sound very frustrated with your dog...not a good time to use an e-collar.


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## eniseanas (Jul 1, 2011)

@kwhit, yes that sounds like good advice. There is a reason why I'm posting this here before I actually got the collar. A part of me says she will never really change her loud mouthed personality, but I'm yearning for a little bit self control, not a lot, just a little. God what wouldn't I give to have some of that for ONCE.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

eniseanas said:


> @AmbikaGR I don't know what you mean by disaster. Do you mean it will arouse her more? Id rather someone who has experience dealing with a high arousal dog because she's brought me to my wits end.



It can raise the dog's level of excitement. It can cause new and worse issues. It should *NEVER *be used out of frustration. 
As you noted some dogs are barkers by nature. And with many you can shape the behavior but never eliminate it. You really need to find someone in your area to help with this. Have you contacted the breeder to see if they have any dealings with this behavior? 
And I do use an e-collar I am not opposed to there use in the right environment to reinforce an understood behavior.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Thanks for being more direct that I was  In terms of disaster: you could really make the dog neurotic. He will have no idea what you are correcting for or where the correction is coming from and then start associating it with anything or everything. For example: dog is carrying a stick, you correct him for getting excited, he drops stick and thinks that's what you were upset about. 

The pup might just need more exercise. Not just a walk. 30 minutes chasing a ball, 30 minutes swimming, followed by a 30 minute walk. Starting out with a walk is hard, especially since you are having problems there. My old dog was "high arousal" (although never heard the term). She was like the tasmanian devil, reeking havoc everywhere. Everything sent her into a tail spin, literally. The only way we got her under control was lots and lots of obedience classes and 3- 1 hour walks a day. Yes, she was eventually trained on an e-collar, but only after she was 3 years old, well trained (not calm though...) and never because I was frustrated. 



AmbikaGR said:


> In my opinion you are on the road to *DISASTER!!!!*
> 
> Unless you are fully experienced on the proper way to use an e-collar you will cause more problems. An e-collar is *NOT* a teaching tool.
> 
> *PLEASE* reconsider and get some help from professional trainers.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Also realize that your getting upset with the dog can actually cause the dog to escalate the behavior. Most times it is better to actually be over exaggeratedly calm and soft spoken.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

My 2 cents. Bad idea. And both my dogs have been trained with an e collar. I would highly recommend a prong collar. You will be surprised how much control the prong collar gives you. Just make sure you have someone that can show how to properly use it.
If you are truly at your wits end please sign up for a class with a trainer who specializes in e collars. I would recommend one that is experienced in training gun dogs. Like others mentioned the collar is used to reinforce what the dog *already knows.*...and I don't think your dog knows that he is doing anything wrong when he approaches other dogs. It seems like he just wants to either socialize or be dominating _and you_ can't control him. First you need to learn how to control him on a leash. If you use the e collar for this you will only be confusing him, and setting him up to be fearful of other dogs. 
I am not sure what you mean by a collar that vibrates and shocks? Sounds like something cheap you would buy in a pet store......if so stop right there.....no good. 
An e collar is a wonderful tool when used properly. Good luck!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Liverwurst is a very high value, stinky treat. Give it a try and see how your girl responds. I can almost guarantee you will have 100% focus on you and what are asking rather than her paying attention to the other dog(s). I would work on the "look" command and have her look at you whenever you have another dog approaching. Say "look" and hold the high value treat (liverwurst) in front of your eyes and when she looks at it, say "yes" and give her a piece. Do that two or three times and she will focus right on you when you say look. Make it a good, upbeat thing and practice over and over before you take her out where you will run into other dogs. Then do it when a dog approaches. It will work, I promise.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> In my opinion you are on the road to *DISASTER!!!!*
> 
> Unless you are fully experienced on the proper way to use an e-collar you will cause more problems. An e-collar is *NOT* a teaching tool.
> 
> *PLEASE* reconsider and get some help from professional trainers.


I totally agree. If you are determined to use an e-collar, you MUST find an experienced trainer to Teach You how to use it properly.

I think there are many training possibilities you have not used yet. A private trainer would be my first suggestion.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Just as another perspective, I was once bitten badly by a Golden Retriever whose family had used a shock collar as a last resort to deal with out of control greeting behavior and some other rambunctious stuff. The dog had not been properly exercised nor trained in a consistent, fair way by all family members.

They put the collar on him and did the "logical" thing of shocking him when he did something undesired. They ended up using fairly strong shocks—not as high as the collar could go, but fairly high—to break through his excited behavior.

Not only did the dog not improve at greetings, since the shocks were confusing and energizing, but he developed a severe fear of the pain of the collar. I was bitten when I took him for a couple of weeks to retrain him for them. I grabbed his collar to keep him out of a room in my house, and the sudden movement frightened him. He turned and clamped down on my thumb, breaking the nail and making a bit of a bloody mess of it.

Had I been a better trainer, I would have anticipated that problem and worked differently with him, but some things you learn the hard way. But I am absolutely sure he would not have bitten me if he had not been so panicked and confused about the pain of the misused collar.

Collars may have their place in advanced training of precise distance activities, but for family basics, they're typically a bad idea. They require _more_ expertise and precision than many other methods, and the potential consequences can be severe.

You need a great trainer and a great class, not a harsher piece of equipment.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

I would be very careful using an e collar on an untrained young dog. I have an extremely leash reactive rescue dog and I do understand your frustration. My dog has been through CU classes, he trains in agility and he is obedient. But walking past another dog on a leash is never good with him. He is also collar conditioned. I do use it when walking him but only for a known command 'here' which he knows the correct response to and understands how to stop the pressure. Food is pointless with him in this state. I would suggest if you are going to go this route you find a qualified e collar trainer as others have told you. 
And for the person who asked, Dogtra, which is a very reputable company, makes ecollars with a vibrate mode which is just that, a vibration. There are probably other brands that have this too. It is very useful to interrupt behavior or just get the dogs attention when he is away from you and ignoring you.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

TrailDogs said:


> I would be very careful using an e collar on an untrained young dog. I have an extremely leash reactive rescue dog and I do understand your frustration. My dog has been through CU classes, he trains in agility and he is obedient. But walking past another dog on a leash is never good with him. He is also collar conditioned. I do use it when walking him but only for a known command 'here' which he knows the correct response to and understands how to stop the pressure. Food is pointless with him in this state. I would suggest if you are going to go this route you find a qualified e collar trainer as others have told you.
> And for the person who asked, Dogtra, which is a very reputable company, makes ecollars with a vibrate mode which is just that, a vibration. There are probably other brands that have this too. It is very useful to interrupt behavior or just get the dogs attention when he is away from you and ignoring you.


I wasn't aware that Dogstra (which is a good brand) had the vibrate mode, we use tri tronics which also has the audio, which is also great at getting their attention.....good to know!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

just because vibration is not a 'shock' doesn't mean it wont cause confusion, psych damage, escalate behavior.....this is a training/management issue not an issue of finding a 'better' or 'stronger' correction.

The sentence that said she knows how to be quite in the house but not outside illustrates a hole in your understanding of how dogs learn.
Dogs are notorious for not being able to generalize...just because the dog knows how to settle indoors..doesn't mean he can take that same info and apply it to situations outside the house...

Pour your energy into finding a great trainer to help you train through this..I have no doubt you will be able to help Applesauce learn to be a nicely behaved dog on leash.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

e-collars when used responsibly, and properly are not dangerous, mean or anyting of that sort. They are a great way to train a dog for excellent recall, to stop unwanted behaviour when all other methods have not been successful. There are reasons and times when they are appropriate, each dog is is different, and just because someone wants to train their dog this way is their business. We all need not crucify people for their methods and choices. Tucker was a shelter dog, with zero social skills and little training. We did General obedience and clicker training. I still could not walk him, or stop him from mounting every dog in the park, and getting into combat mode. he had scars on his neck from the improper use of a prong collar. He was a mess. He now responds with the beep only sound of his e-collar with 400m distance, comes to me on a beep, and has the best behaviour of any dog in our park. He is happy, social, and is a walking testimony of how e-collar training can benefit a dog when the owner is on board with the correct style of positive training while using it. if anything needs to be banned it's the term " SHOCK". you don't electricute your dog into submission folks, you give them a low level stimulus that gets their attention. I personally feel much better than most of the Idiots I see screaming at the top of their lungs at their dogs in the park with zero result. Just my 2 cents from my personal experience with using one. If the Original poster would like to message me, I would be happy to share some training tips with them.

MTA: My e-collar is the sport dog SD-400 the tritronics one's are NOT recommended, they are painful and too strong for most dogs. Sport dog collars are geared for field training work, not to shock the crap out of the dog which is what most people's perceptions are of e-collars.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Tuckers Mom said:


> e-collars when used responsibly, and properly are not dangerous, mean or anyting of that sort. They are a great way to train a dog for excellent recall, to stop unwanted behaviour when all other methods have not been successful. There are reasons and times when they are appropriate, each dog is is different, and just because someone wants to train their dog this way is their business. We all need not crucify people for their methods and choices. Tucker was a shelter dog, with zero social skills and little training. We did General obedience and clicker training. I still could not walk him, or stop him from mounting every dog in the park, and getting into combat mode. he had scars on his neck from the improper use of a prong collar. He was a mess. He now responds with the beep only sound of his e-collar with 400m distance, comes to me on a beep, and has the best behaviour of any dog in our park. He is happy, social, and is a walking testimony of how e-collar training can benefit a dog when the owner is on board with the correct style of positive training while using it. if anything needs to be banned it's the term " SHOCK". you don't electricute your dog into submission folks, you give them a low level stimulus that gets their attention. I personally feel much better than most of the Idiots I see screaming at the top of their lungs at their dogs in the park with zero result. Just my 2 cents from my personal experience with using one. If the Original poster would like to message me, I would be happy to share some training tips with them.



No one crucifying anyone. All that has been done is enlighten the OP as to a "shock collar" can do more damage than repair. It is wonderful that you were able to "teach" your dog using an e-collar but trust me you are in a VERY small minority of being able to "teach" with it. You are right that it is their business how they train their dog but we can express our opinion without it being interpreted as "crucifying".


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Tuckers Mom said:


> MTA: My e-collar is the sport dog SD-400 the tritronics one's are NOT recommended, they are painful and too strong for most dogs. Sport dog collars are geared for field training work, not to shock the crap out of the dog which is what most people's perceptions are of e-collars.



The brand of collar really does not matter, they all have adjustable levels and none are "painful and too strong for most dogs" *IF* set and used properly.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

We are an emotional community here. We all love our dogs, that is what fuels alot of it I am sure. I think everyone needs to be a bit more respectful ( myself included) at times when it comes to people that come here looking for advise, not criticisim for their choices. It's their dog, and they will go with what method that they feel is in the best interest of the dog. What we need to do to HELP that person is to provide feedback from all perspectives, not just such personal opinions from those who do not approve of this method of training. I posted because I have PERSONAL experience with this, and it's been very successful for me. I think that is what the OP was aiming for here. not to get into a battle of who's right and wrong. Just saying.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There are so many threads about E collars/ shock collars here. You should read through them. As a dog trainer, I see so many more problems created by these collars than cured by them. I have observed that pain/aggression in can sometimes result in aggression out when the e collar is used for teaching pet dogs the basics. Also, it can result in frantic nervous pets. I hope you will let a skilled professional properly collar condition your pup, and then teach you how to use the collar if you choose this method after researching and considering the input you receive from many sources. I agree with many others that an excellent trainer will help you more than upping your punishment.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Tuckers Mom said:


> We are an emotional community here. We all love our dogs, that is what fuels alot of it I am sure. I think everyone needs to be a bit more respectful ( myself included) at times when it comes to people that come here looking for advise, not criticisim for their choices. It's their dog, and they will go with what method that they feel is in the best interest of the dog. What we need to do to HELP that person is to provide feedback from all perspectives, not just such personal opinions from those who do not approve of this method of training. I posted because I have PERSONAL experience with this, and it's been very successful for me. I think that is what the OP was aiming for here. not to get into a battle of who's right and wrong. Just saying.


I AM trying to help. I also have PERSONAL experience with e-collars. I use an e-collar, and I put it on my dog every day. Haven't had to use it in a while, but always put it on. Everything is a personal opinion. Your positive experience is a personal opinion. It has also been the minority voice here, which may say something about the success rate of this type of use of the e-collar. I'm not criticizing, I am trying to give the OP some information that will hopefully enable them to make a fully informed choice. If someone came on talking about hitting their dog with a newspaper because they were just at their wits end, would you not want to say "that might not be the best way to go about training?" I honestly think this has been a good discussion about the use of e-collars and hasn't gotten into a fight, yet....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I only ask that if somebody plans on using an zap collar for training, they go the right route and start taking classes with a trainer who will train them to train their dog. 

I would say the same with any collar that would cause a fear, panic, or pain response if used incorrectly. And I especially don't want anyone using the collar in anger or when upset. 

I would say the same exact thing if this thread were about putting a prong on a pulling dog. 

Whether you use a prong, zap collar, whatever or not, obedience classes are in order. 

And patience.

I have neighbors who use zap collars for their labradoodle. They attended classes on how to use it properly + they are hunters so there was a reason for using this specific collar.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

Exactly Kate, THANK YOU for your post. This is the point I have been trying to make. All training, whether you choose e-collar, prong, whatever HAS to come at the hands of an EXPERIENCED trainer. each method of training can be a complete success if the focus is on the Positive reinforcment. a dog can have a panic and fear response from being yelled at by it's owner at the top of their lungs just as much as a nip from a collar of either sort. Moral of the story is Do your research, consult a professional, have an evaluation by a qualified trainer to asess the best training protocol, and move forward with confidence.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I should add that with some expert advice (from LJilly28, actually), I was able to build trust with that dog and to recondition him to relax about his flat buckle collar and his neck area. I gave the family a plan to retrain greetings to take the energy out of them and to show him what he needed to do in order to get the positive attention he was desperate for. 

Proper exercise would probably have made it much, much easier on them, but they were not willing to go that route. They wanted him to run in the backyard on his own a couple of times a day and spend the rest of his time in the house. Sometimes the kids would play with him back there (and he lived for those moments), but they didn't do it on a regular, daily basis, so the family didn't reap all the potential benefits.

He was a fabulous, loving dog, and they loved him very much, but he responded very badly to harsh methods and even worse to inconsistent methods. He had known what they wanted, he would have done it, but he did not understand yelling, and shocking him was no substitute for clarity in training.

A shock collar in expert hands, used for the right skills, is a powerful tool with a low risk of adverse side effects. However, it cannot be a substitute for clarity, consistency, and exercise.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> A shock collar in expert hands, used for the right skills, is a powerful tool with a low risk of adverse side effects. However, it cannot be a substitute for clarity, consistency, and exercise.


 
*AMEN TO THAT*......Well said.


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## Faith82 (Aug 25, 2011)

I use a prong collar with my dog and it works perfectly. There are two types that I have seen, ones with sharp, pointy prongs and ones with rounded prongs. I use the one with the rounded prongs. It doesn't hurt him, it actually mimicks the mother dogs mouth when she corrects her puppies and they get the hint really quick. Its just a quick pinch then it releases once the dog stops pulling and lays on the neck like a regular collar. I would try that before a shock collar. 

A friend of mine used a shock collar on his dog because he would yank so hard or run towards another dog when he saw him. My friend would shock the dog when it got close to the other dogs and it totally backfired. Now the dog antipicates getting shocked when he see's another dog and turns aggressive. Now he has to muzzle his dog every time they go on a walk


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## eniseanas (Jul 1, 2011)

UPDATE: Thank you everyone for your posts, I'm used to reading posts here so I know how important your dogs are for you and I know you guys have your heart in the right place so I don't mind negative comments along with the positive ones, I like to hear both sides of the story. 

And apparently I haven't reached my minimum 15 posts so I can't respond to IM's here just yet. 

Spokane is a relatively small town, and the only e-collar trainer closest to me lives an hours drive away. They don't have classes on my days off so it's not an option for me at the moment. But I would like to reassure you that my girl has been taking training classes for the past 6 weeks now but has shown very little improvement. Since she's so smart, she tends to adapt to whoever is teaching her in that particular environment, and then when we leave, like lets say go to a park to get some off leash time, she will immediately revert back to the undesirable behaviors. And I don't mean being too excited to see a stick, that's pretty desirable for me  I like it when she gets excited to play with me. But its those moments when she sees another dog, or a family with kids, for some strange reason, only when she's leashed, she will bark like nuts. If she's not leashed, she'll bark once or twice, then ignore them. Its like, why?!!. But our trainer tried to convince us to use a prong/choke collar last week because she realized that things aren't improving. At that point I thought: I'd rather use an e-collar since they do pretty much the same thing: induce some sort of stimulus to get her attention. 

As of yesterday I've contacted another trainer here and discussed my dogs high arousal state and she actually said that she would not advise on either prong/choke or an e-collar due to the nature of high arousal dogs. She described that these collars although they do the trick, might make her silently aggressive because she'll associate seeing another dog with a discomfort of a prong/e-collar. Since she's already frustrated while on leash at not being able to go up to other people, it wasn't a good idea for us to use either kind of collar. We're scheduled to go see the new trainer on Tuesday, and get an evaluation on Applesauce. Hopefully something good will come of it. I'll keep you guys posted.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Six week is a very short time to see much change with her, given what you need to work on. Practice in different environments, but in areas where the distractions will be below her threshold, work that way for a long time, then move it up a notch to slightly more distractions. It is too much, and much too soon, to expect her to do well in the training room and then immediately transfer that to the off leash park. She isn't ready for that yet. It would be a good idea to keep her on a leash, or a long line, until you have more control.

I hope the new trainer you are talking to is a great help. It's always good to get more input, and I like the advise they gave you already.

I really believe, if you are consistent, patient, and keep working at it, that you will have success.


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## Montana's Mommy (Mar 10, 2009)

I picked one up last night for Levi!!! It does come with a DVD to teach, plus I am lucky I have a friend who uses them on her hunting dogs in the field and she will help train me. I have a good feeling that tone is all I will need to use on Levi. Long story short, this is a last resort!!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tuckers Mom said:


> e-collars when used responsibly, and properly are not dangerous, mean or anyting of that sort. They are a great way to train a dog for excellent recall, to stop unwanted behaviour when all other methods have not been successful. There are reasons and times when they are appropriate, each dog is is different, and just because someone wants to train their dog this way is their business. We all need not crucify people for their methods and choices. Tucker was a shelter dog, with zero social skills and little training. We did General obedience and clicker training. I still could not walk him, or stop him from mounting every dog in the park, and getting into combat mode. he had scars on his neck from the improper use of a prong collar. He was a mess. He now responds with the beep only sound of his e-collar with 400m distance, comes to me on a beep, and has the best behaviour of any dog in our park. He is happy, social, and is a walking testimony of how e-collar training can benefit a dog when the owner is on board with the correct style of positive training while using it. if anything needs to be banned it's the term " SHOCK". you don't electricute your dog into submission folks, you give them a low level stimulus that gets their attention. I personally feel much better than most of the Idiots I see screaming at the top of their lungs at their dogs in the park with zero result. Just my 2 cents from my personal experience with using one. If the Original poster would like to message me, I would be happy to share some training tips with them.
> 
> MTA: My e-collar is the sport dog SD-400 *the tritronics one's are NOT recommended, they are painful and too strong for most dogs*. Sport dog collars are geared for field training work, not to shock the crap out of the dog which is what most people's perceptions are of e-collars.


I agree with everything you mentioned except that tri tronics are not recommended because they are too painful. Tri tronics come in a variety of models so please do research before posting untrue statements Before we even decided to use the collar our trainer made us test it on ourselves. So I am confident it is harmless.

We used the collar for off leash, recall and boundaries. Dogs are animals first and foremost and sometimes no amount of training will stop a dog from chasing rabbit in the middle of the desert:no: Not only is it a wonderful harmless tool it gives you a tremendous piece of mind that your dog is safe. However even though I know how to use it, I would not give the op tips. I highly recommend she contact a experienced e collar trainer to personally show her how to use it, or it could backfire. Just like the improperly used prong collar you mentioned. Especially as frustrated as the op sounds. I still think her dog can benefit from a home personal trainer. It sounds to me that the dog is not comprehending the basics which is a must before *any *e collar is used.

Our friends had a problem with their golden bolting after other dogs at the school. We suggested the e collar and showed them how to use it. Their dog only had to be stimulated _one tim_e and that was 4 months ago. They confided in us that they didn't want to use it because of the mis guided rumors that they hurt dogs. Now they say they are just sorry they hadn't purchased it sooner. Dogs learn quickly that _they _control the collar, not the owners


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

eniseanas said:


> As of yesterday I've contacted another trainer here and discussed my dogs high arousal state and she actually said that she would not advise on either prong/choke or an e-collar due to the nature of high arousal dogs. She described that these collars although they do the trick, might make her silently aggressive because she'll associate seeing another dog with a discomfort of a prong/e-collar. Since she's already frustrated while on leash at not being able to go up to other people, it wasn't a good idea for us to use either kind of collar. We're scheduled to go see the new trainer on Tuesday, and get an evaluation on Applesauce. Hopefully something good will come of it. I'll keep you guys posted.


 
Good luck!! And congratulations on deciding to continue searching for answers.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sunrise said:


> Good luck!! And congratulations on deciding to continue searching for answers.



What she said!!! :dblthumb2


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Our friends had a problem with their golden bolting after other dogs at the school. We suggested the e collar and showed them how to use it. Their dog only had to be stimulated _one tim_e and that was 4 months ago. They confided in us that they didn't want to use it because of the mis guided rumors that they hurt dogs. Now they say they are just sorry they hadn't purchased it sooner. Dogs learn quickly that _they _control the collar, not the owners


 
Thanks for your post. I wholeheartedly agree that the dog really does control whether or not the stimulus is used or not. It's the proper training that makes them not have to have the collar used at all....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Faith82 said:


> I use a prong collar with my dog and it works perfectly. There are two types that I have seen, ones with sharp, pointy prongs and ones with rounded prongs. I use the one with the rounded prongs. It doesn't hurt him, it actually mimicks the mother dogs mouth when she corrects her puppies and they get the hint really quick. Its just a quick pinch then it releases once the dog stops pulling and lays on the neck like a regular collar. I would try that before a shock collar.
> 
> A friend of mine used a shock collar on his dog because he would yank so hard or run towards another dog when he saw him. My friend would shock the dog when it got close to the other dogs and it totally backfired.* Now the dog antipicates getting shocked when he see's another dog and turns aggressive*. Now he has to muzzle his dog every time they go on a walk


This is a perfect example of how it can backfire. The dog thinks that the other dog is causing the uncomfortale stimulation.......and this is what will happen to the op if she uses it for this purpose. The purpose of the stimulator is to teach the dog to make the right choices when given a command....but he must KNOW and UNDERSTAND the command.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Dogs are animals first and foremost and sometimes no amount of training will stop a dog from chasing rabbit in the middle of the desert


I disagree a bit here. The goal of a training program can be to build a habit so strongly that a dog executes it even in the face of an extreme distraction. Overcoming strong prey drive can be really challenging, but it's achievable.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

eniseanas said:


> UPDATE: Thank you everyone for your posts, I'm used to reading posts here so I know how important your dogs are for you and I know you guys have your heart in the right place so I don't mind negative comments along with the positive ones, I like to hear both sides of the story.
> 
> And apparently I haven't reached my minimum 15 posts so I can't respond to IM's here just yet.
> 
> ...


A prong collar _will not_ associate discomfort with another dog. A prong collar is a great tool to keep strong dogs from pulling on the leash.....I would suggest that you get a trainer to come to your home and walk around the neighborhood with you so she can show you what to do when you approach another dog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I disagree a bit here. The goal of a training program can be to build a habit so strongly that a dog executes it even in the face of an extreme distraction.* Overcoming strong prey drive can be really challenging, but it's achievable*.


How many dogs to we need to go thru being lost in the desert or hit by a car to prove this point I have confidence that my Cody (who died at at 10 last year) would adhere to my commands while out in the desert or mountains, but for my piece of mind he still wore that collar up until the day he died on our trips. And I had not even used the stimulator in proabably over 6 years Back up plans can save lives IMO.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Montana's Mommy said:


> I picked one up last night for Levi!!! It does come with a DVD to teach, plus I am lucky I have a friend who uses them on her hunting dogs in the field and she will help train me. I have a good feeling that tone is all I will need to use on Levi. Long story short, this is a last resort!!


I think you will be pleasantly surprised. good luck!


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> This is a perfect example of how it can backfire. The dog thinks that the other dog is causing the uncomfortale stimulation.......and this is what will happen to the op if she uses it for this purpose. The purpose of the stimulator is to teach the dog to make the right choices when given a command....but he must KNOW and UNDERSTAND the command.


 
+1 AGAIN. You are getting this point across SO MUCH BETTER than I. Foundation training/General Obedience is SO important before attempting to use an e-collar. Tucker had all of that with me, so I was ready to take his training to this level when we went into an e-collar. He now does happy zoomies when I turn his collar on, because he associates the beep beep beep with " OMG FUN TIME COMING". He knows he's getting to go out and work for his rewards and treats and it's been very positive. I have only encountered having to hi level stimulate him once, and that was when some Idiot brought a remote controlled car into the paved parking lot of the dog park and when we got out of our car, Tucker bolted to go after it. ( Insane prey drive). It was a quick yet effective Nick, command to COME, and right to me he came. Which is exactly what I wanted it for.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

LOL! That made me laugh. Odd how my dog gets oh so exited when I bring out that mean old collar too: They relate it to fun and play not punishment when used properly. The biggest misconception of the e-collar is *punishment. :no: *


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Every dog is different and what works for one isnt going to work for all. One of my dogs has been in extensive training for 4 years, she knows hand signals, body signals etc and in a normal setting her recall and commands are great. Get her out in a field where wildlife is and all bets are off. Her prey drive is VERY HIGH. NO high value treat will get her attention, she actually could careless about treats or toys.she will spit the treat or toy back at you.When she is out there she will go into the red zone, she hears nothing and see's only the prey, I went with a e-collar and trained with a trainer as a last resort. she has NEVER been Shocked, the vibration mode is enough to stop her and she will return to me. To me the number one factor is her safety and if that means using an e-collar then so be it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> How many dogs to we need to go thru being lost in the desert or hit by a car to prove this point I have confidence that my Cody (who died at at 10 last year) would adhere to my commands while out in the desert or mountains, but for my piece of mind he still wore that collar up until the day he died on our trips. And I had not even used the stimulator in proabably over 6 years Back up plans can save lives IMO.


Huh? So your point is that if I don't put an e-collar on my well-trained dog, I'm taking an unnecessary risk that he'll run off?

Like I said, I disagree. It's important to know your dog and to manage your risk, but you can't generalize that all high-drive dogs need to wear remote collars to be safely managed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! That made me laugh. Odd how my dog gets oh so exited when I bring out that mean old collar too: They relate it to fun and play not punishment when used properly. The biggest misconception of the e-collar is *punishment. :no: *


In strict behavioral terms, the e-collar is only capable of delivering positive punishment (unless you're talking about tones or want to argue that vibrations aren't unpleasant). That's not to say that it's an evil thing or a bad tool, but let's be precise about what the word punishment means. The e-collar isn't punishment itself (like, just putting one on your dog isn't punishment), but its main design feature is the ability to deliver positive punishment at a distance.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Huh? So your point is that if I don't put an e-collar on my well-trained dog, I'm taking an unnecessary risk that he'll run off?
> 
> Like I said, I disagree. You know your dog and you manage your risk,* but you can't generalize that all high-drive dogs need to wear remote collars to be safely managed*.


You are correct. That's why I would never generalize. My post was hypothetical not personal. All dogs are different and react differently in different situations no matter how well trained especially if they have a high prey drive. However I can honestly say I *KNOW* my dog will return with the e collar if he was in an unsafe situation. I can't honestly say that otherwise.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You are correct. That's why I would never generalize. My post was hypothetical not personal. All dogs are different and react differently in different situations no matter how well trained especially if they have a high prey drive. However I can honestly say I *KNOW* my dog will return with the e collar if he was in an unsafe situation. I can't honestly say that otherwise.


Fair enough. I certainly don't look down at somebody who puts an e-collar on their dog as an insurance policy (or for many other good reasons). I only contested the concept that "no amount of training" could stop a high drive dog during a chase.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> In strict behavioral terms, the e-collar is only capable of delivering positive punishment (unless you're talking about tones or want to argue that vibrations aren't unpleasant). That's not to say that it's an evil thing or a bad tool, but let's be precise about what the word punishment means. *The e-collar isn't punishment itself (like, just putting one on your dog isn't punishment), but its main design feature is the ability to deliver positive* punishment at a distance.


We call it positive reinforcement. My post you quoted was to let people know if used properly that the collar will not damage your dog. If it were so horrific as some make it out to be our dogs would not be happy to put it on. That was the intent of my post.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> We call it positive reinforcement. My post you quoted was to let people know if used properly that the collar will not damage your dog. If it were so horrific as some make it out to be our dogs would not be happy to put it on. That was the intent of my post.


Fair enough, but when you use a behavioral term (positive reinforcement) that has a specific meaning that is very different from what the e-collar does (positive punishment), I think it muddies the debate.

If you're saying dogs have a positive reaction to it because they associate it with fun training and fun situations, I think that's a great point to make and an accurate one.

And I know some people make the e-collar out as horrific, but nobody's done that in this thread.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> *Fair enough, but when you use a behavioral term (positive reinforcement) that has a specific meaning that is very different from what the e-collar does (positive punishment), I think it muddies the debate.*
> 
> If you're saying dogs have a positive reaction to it because they associate it with fun training and fun situations, I think that's a great point to make and an accurate one.
> 
> And I know some people make the e-collar out as horrific, but nobody's done that in this thread.


I'm not debating anyone but I think you want one. Evidently my word "punishment" bothered you. I didn't use the technical training term. I used that as an example because when alot (notice I didn't say all) of people who are asked to define the word "punishment" will not normally use the word positive. And again remember I never recommended this as a basic training tool. I recommended it to reinforce what they _already know_. That is why we call it positive reinforcement.
And yes some people do make it out as horrific, alot due to the lack of knowledge. That's why they have forums like this to help educate


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I didn't read past the first page of the postings, so excuse me if I am repeating something. 
I thought the point someone made about if you create an association between getting shocked (or a vibration warning of a shock to come) and seeing other dogs, you may way change your dog's happy exuberance about other dogs into aggression.
Thanks for pointing out that possibility (sorry I forgot who said it). This serves to remind us that dogs live in the moment--so when two events (pain and unknown dog) are paired, the dog may then begin to form a new association (unknown dogs=pain...hmmm)


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

lgnutah said:


> I didn't read past the first page of the postings, so excuse me if I am repeating something.
> I thought the point someone made about if you create an association between getting shocked (or a vibration warning of a shock to come) and seeing other dogs, you may way change your dog's happy exuberance about other dogs into aggression.
> Thanks for pointing out that possibility (sorry I forgot who said it). This serves to remind us that dogs live in the moment--so when two events (pain and unknown dog) are paired, the dog may then begin to form a new association (unknown dogs=pain...hmmm)


I don't believe anyone on here would recommend the op to stimulate her dog (which is not painful if done correctly) everytime he gets excited about another dog. That would be just reckless advice. Which is what the op wanted to do because of her frustration. But he does need training to control his impulse of going up to every and any dog, which also could lead to just as much harm if he came across an agressive dog.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm not debating anyone but I think you want one.


I think a friendly back and forth about the issues (not the people) is how we all benefit from sharing perspectives.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Evidently my word "punishment" bothered you.


Not at all. Punishment (in the behavioral science sense) is a necessary part of dog training. I think I understand what you meant, but since you used behavioral terms in a conversation about training, it really does confuse the issue when you use them to mean the opposite of their conventional meanings.

It's easy enough to misunderstand each other's point of view and tone, so I was simply advocating for a precise use of the pre-existing language.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> I didn't use the technical training term. I used that as an example because when alot (notice I didn't say all) of people who are asked to define the word "punishment" will not normally use the word positive. And again remember I never recommended this as a basic training tool. I recommended it to reinforce what they _already know_. That is why we call it positive reinforcement.
> And yes some people do make it out as horrific, alot due to the lack of knowledge. That's why they have forums like this to help educate


I really don't think it's helpful to call it positive reinforcement, since that already is used as a term in dog training with a very different meaning. You are, of course, welcome to call it whatever you like, but we've had many threads across the forum attempting to clear up misunderstandings in training conversations that stem precisely from the misuse of behavioral language.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I think a friendly back and forth about the issues (not the people) is how we all benefit from sharing perspectives.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL! I think you knew what I meant when I used the word punishment the way I did. I used it in laymans term. Reason being is because when asked to define the word punishment.... people will associate it with mean, abusive, severe, extreme etc......People on here are still referring to it as a "shock" collar. So thinking about it that way the poor dog is getting electrocuted lol! So when I made the comment (when used properly) that when I bring the collar out he is happy because he knows he is going out....he associates it as a normal collar mommy is putting on me to go outside yipee.....period......if that is what you meant by me using "behavorial terms in a conversation about training" well than I must be missing something LOL! 
I am not trying to show people how to train their dogs, nor would I suggest tips on how to use the e collar. I think I have mentioned that already a few times to get a qualified trainer to teach you....so you can be rest assured I am not out to confuse the forums technical training terms
As for me and people that I know who use it, it is absolutely a positive reinforcement tool. If he has it on and for whatever reason his attention gets swayed as soon as he gets that command he will think twice about his choice....which has always been the right choice So yeah that's pretty positive in _my terms_......
FWIW......I was number one ignorant about e collars......I thought how horrible, never would I use them in a million years because of all the horrible things I heard about them.....until I got educated.


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

> If he has it on and for whatever reason his attention gets swayed as soon as he gets that command he will think twice about his choice...


Because if he makes the wrong choice he gets shocked? So his decision not to be punished becomes positive?

Sorry, something is wrong with this picture. I think I'll stick to just turning my dog the other direction or not moving until he settles and thinks about it and allow him to use his thought process to make the right choice. I don't need any shortcuts; especially ones that will cause pain.


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## Montana's Mommy (Mar 10, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I think you will be pleasantly surprised. good luck!


Thanks - I just can't wait to be pleasantly surprised!!!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Angelina said:


> Because if he makes the wrong choice he gets *shocked*? So his decision not to be *punished* becomes positive?
> 
> Sorry, something is wrong with this picture. I think I'll stick to just turning my dog the other direction or not moving until he settles and thinks about it and allow him to use his thought process to make the right choice. I don't need any *shortcuts;* especially ones that will* cause pain*.


Perfect example of what I was referring to when people have no knowledge of the use of the e collar.:no:


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

From your description of it there is no other conclusion to be drawn...:no::no:


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Montana's Mommy said:


> Thanks - I just can't wait to be pleasantly surprised!!!


Please let us know how it turns out. BTW, love your cowboy names. I have a Kellys Wyatt Earp (Wyatt), and my rainbow bridge dog was Cowboys Wild Bill Cody (Cody).
Cody's dad's name was Glen Ivys Ride em Cowboy (Cowboy)....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Angelina said:


> From your description of it there is no other conclusion to be drawn...:no::no:


I can give descriptions all day and they will be taken wrong or out of context on a message board. In fact they already have lol!
If my dog was in a situation as you described there would be no reason to stimulate him. I would re direct as you said.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Angelina said:


> From your description of it there is no other conclusion to be drawn...:no::no:


I agree.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> If he has it on and for whatever reason his attention gets swayed as soon as he gets that command he will think twice about his choice....which has always been the right choice


If he thinks twice about his choice, obviously to _avoid_ the stim/shock, then this seems to invalidate the following quote from you, especially the part I've put in bold. It must hurt or at least be _extremely_ unpleasant if the dog avoids having it happen. Hey, if it felt good, then they wouldn't care at all about the collar, right?



Wyatt's mommy said:


> I don't believe anyone on here would recommend the op to stimulate her dog (*which is not painful if done correctly*)


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

I haven't read through the millions of posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned.

I stopped some of my pups' bad behaviour with a spray gun. Although they love swimming, they don't care for water being sprayed in their face. My dogs were fence barkers. I could reach them from a distance. At first I was going to use vinegar in it, but then decided to try just water... the vinegar was never needed.

For close up work, such as walking, a smaller spray gun works well. I have no problem with light negative reinforcement, if it's well thought out and not used as true punishment


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Plus how does he know what his other choice is? Say you have a high drive dog as you describe running for a rabbit, you use the shock collar. How does that teach him to stop running for the rabbit? Is it the distraction from pain? Why would he go back to you? To seek comfort? Tell me what I'm missing here (and I just read thru all the posts...).

My intuitition tells me it would create insecurity and that "I" would feel like I am betraying my dog. There are other ways; be it a bit harder; involving more training, time repetition; holding back fustrations...but in the end the bond is formed.

I cannot help but equate this to horse training. Sure you can get a horse to listen to you out of fear of punishment and association of pain; or you can work harder and have a partnership with a horse by making it easy to choose the 'right' choice (and not from pain, but with a horse from work). Now when you get dumped out on the trail (because it will happen), which horse is going to run back to the barn and leave your sorry butt on the ground and which one is going to come to you and wait for you to get up? The fearful one, or the one with no fear but a true bond?


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"negative reinforcement,"

Spraying the dog would be positive punishment in scientific terms of Operant Conditioning.

There are 4 quadrants.

Positive punishment - adding an aversive stimulus to decrease an undersirable behavior

Negative punishment - removing (subtracting) a desirable stimulus to decrease an undersirable behavior

Positive Reinforcement - - adding something desirable to increase a behavior

Negative Reinforcement - removing an aversive stimulus to increase a behavior


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> If he thinks twice about his choice, obviously to _avoid_ the stim/shock, then this seems to invalidate the following quote from you, especially the part I've put in bold. It must hurt or at least be _extremely_ unpleasant if the dog avoids having it happen. Hey, if it felt good, then they wouldn't care at all about the collar, right?


Who ever said it felt good? See this is my whole point of being taken out of context. When you snap the leash for correction does that feel good? Of course not. When you lift your leg to stop a dog from jumping, does that feel good? It's not pleasant and they don't like it right? Same as an e collar. Have you ever used an e collar? On the lowest stim it is a tingly feeling that gets their attention. It also has audio that makes a noise that gets their attention. Some have the one (I learned yesterday) that has a vibrate mode to get their attention. 
They are especially beneficial to dogs that bolt. Once they are out of range how will you get them back if they don't listen to you? If they have already been conditioned with the collar all you need is the audio, vibration or low stim. My Wyatt has never experienced the highest stim, no need to he doesn't like the tingly feeling......which is far far far from pain......snapping of the lease is more painful. The whole point is "getting their attention" when they are out of range. Once they shake out of that prey mode they come back to earth lol.

Curious has anyone here put their dog thru rattlesnake training?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loboto-Me said:


> *I stopped some of my pups' bad behaviour with a spray gun*. Although they love swimming, they don't care for water being sprayed in their face. My dogs were fence barkers. I could reach them from a distance. At first I was going to use vinegar in it, but then decided to try just water... the vinegar was never needed.
> 
> For close up work, such as walking, a smaller spray gun works well. *I have no problem with light negative reinforcement, if it's well thought out and not used as true punishment*


Actually, using correct terminology you are using positive punishment with the spray bottle. Positive because you add something (spray); punishment because it is stopping/decreasing a behavior (barking).

Negative reinforcement is when you take away a stimulus to increase a behavior. Common example would be the annoying dinging noise your car makes to get you to put your seat belt on. Negative because you are taking away a stimulus (the dinging) and reinforcement because you are increasing a behavior (putting the seat belt on).

I know the word 'punishment' sounds bad--that's unfortunate. That does not mean it is always a horrible thing.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Angelina said:


> Plus how does he know what his other choice is? Say you have a high drive dog as you describe running for a rabbit, you use the shock collar. How does that teach him to stop running for the rabbit? Is it the distraction from pain? Why would he go back to you? To seek comfort? Tell me what I'm missing here (and I just read thru all the posts...).
> 
> My intuitition tells me it would create insecurity and that "I" would feel like I am betraying my dog. There are other ways; be it a bit harder; involving more training, time repetition; holding back fustrations...but in the end the bond is formed.
> 
> I cannot help but equate this to horse training. Sure you can get a horse to listen to you out of fear of punishment and association of pain; or you can work harder and have a partnership with a horse by making it easy to choose the 'right' choice (and not from pain, but with a horse from work). Now when you get dumped out on the trail (because it will happen), which horse is going to run back to the barn and leave your sorry butt on the ground and which one is going to come to you and wait for you to get up? The fearful one, or the one with no fear but a true bond?


Sooooo, you are saying I don't have a true bond with my dog? That I'm not trying hard enough to train my dog? Hmmmm. Sorry, but you don't know me and you don't know my dog, and you have never seen me train. I think that is a really wrong generalization to make. 
So, here is how you use the collar. It ISN'T used to "stop a bad behavior" such as running after a rabbit. If my dog was chasing a rabbit, I would say HERE! Dog should turn and come. Dog think, eh, I would rather chase bunny. I would say NO, HERE, nick with collar. The punishment is NOT for chasing the bunny, it is for not listening to my HERE. I'm not trying to "keep my dog from chasing a rabbit, I am working to make sure that, whatever is happening, my dog will respond to ME, not the environment. 

Now I know that you will have a great time trashing my argument and telling all of us mean, undedicated trainers how wrong we are. Go ahead, just wanted to try to explain. Pretty sure that I predicted this turning into a fight waaaayyyy back in post #25.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Angelina said:


> Plus how does he know what his other choice is? Say you have a high drive dog as you describe running for a rabbit, you use the shock collar. *How does that teach him to stop running for the rabbit? *Is it the distraction from pain? Why would he go back to you? To seek comfort? Tell me what I'm missing here (and I just read thru all the posts...).
> 
> My intuitition tells me it would create insecurity and that "I" would feel like I am betraying my dog. There are other ways; be it a bit harder; involving more training, time repetition; holding back fustrations...but in the end the bond is formed.
> 
> I cannot help but equate this to horse training. Sure you can get a horse to listen to you out of fear of punishment and association of pain; or you can work harder and have a partnership with a horse by making it easy to choose the 'right' choice (and not from pain, but with a horse from work). Now when you get dumped out on the trail (because it will happen), which horse is going to run back to the barn and leave your sorry butt on the ground and which one is going to come to you and wait for you to get up? The fearful one, or the one with no fear but a true bond?


It is used to get their attention when he doesn't listen to my command in a situation where they are not reachable......I never had an insecure dog......I would never use one on an insecure dog either.........


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

mlopez: I'm not saying anything about you and your dog....don't put words in my mouth. 

Thank you for your collar explanation; I would hope it is the bond you do have that turns him and brings him back to you. I would also hope you can do it without inflicting pain. I know I can.

Assuming I'm going to try and trash your 'arguement' just indicates to me there is no longer room for discussion. Sorry you don't understand my analogy using horse training but that is all it is. It was not personally directed toward anyone but obviously you are taking it personal. There are many ways to train our companions and to each their own. I just choose to do it differently and challenge the use of devices that create pain. It is what it is.


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Wyatt: thank you for that explanation. I am understanding the setting is low and more of a vibration and not an electrical shock? (I hope). It sounds like there is preliminary training that goes into it as well? Although I would choose not to use it I understand there are different training methods for different people and dogs and such is life.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I would encourage anyone to spend time watching a good trainer use an ecollar and actually feel the collar themselves before making up your mind up about it. As with anything in life--please do not knock something until you have spent time learning about it, trying it, etc.

EDIT: And I do know some of you have--kudos to you whether you agree with it or not for at least learning/trying.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Angelina said:


> Wyatt: thank you for that explanation. I am understanding the setting is low and more of a vibration and not an electrical shock? (I hope). It sounds like there is preliminary training that goes into it as well? Although I would choose not to use it I understand there are different training methods for different people and dogs and such is life.


Correct he is not getting an electrical shock I don't have vibration mode on mine....it is more of a tingly feeling. Yes you should be trained by someone that is knowledgable and experienced. Not all people or dogs are good candidates either. I know a few golden owners who I would never suggest using an e collar. And these people constantly complain about how their well trained dogs never mind them


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Angelina said:


> Thank you for your collar explanation; I would hope it is the bond you do have that turns him and brings him back to you. I would also hope you can do it without inflicting pain. I know I can.
> 
> Assuming I'm going to try and trash your 'arguement' just indicates to me there is no longer room for discussion. Sorry you don't understand my analogy using horse training but that is all it is. It was not personally directed toward anyone but obviously you are taking it personal. There are many ways to train our companions and to each their own. I just choose to do it differently and challenge the use of devices that create pain. It is what it is.


You said "There are other ways; be it a bit harder; involving more training, time repetition; holding back fustrations...but in the end the bond is formed." How is that not also saying that those who train with collars aregetting frustrated and not training enough? And you "know" you can get your dog to come to you without inflicting pain. That, to me, is implying that your dog is trained better than mine because you didn't have to use the collar to get that. Sure, you didn't put my name in it but you were generalizing about those who use collars. So thats me, meaning everything you wish to say about collars and collar trainers should be applied to me. I don't hurt my dog, any more than he gets hurt being nipped at by my other dog during play (in fact, probably much less). I love my dog. 

But again, to each his own, as long as you aren't unfair, overly harsh, or abusive....


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Let me ask this... how is the e-collar any different than having an Invisible fence? I know a lot of places wont let you have a real fence , so people put in the invisible fence.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Maggies mom said:


> Let me ask this... how is the e-collar any different than having an Invisible fence? I know a lot of places wont let you have a real fence , so people put in the invisible fence.


LOL! Too funny I was just thinking the same thing:


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

It's amazing to me how these threads get so out of control. This needs to come to an end, we can go 20 pages long and have an Internet Peeing contest to see who gets to have their point made. e-collars do not hurt a dog, those of you whom have never used one under the training and supervision of a qualified trainer and are making claims on how we are all hurting and electricuting our dogs into submission need to just digress. If you aren't qualified to give a constructive answer in this discussion, and only want to continue argue, especially if you have NEVER had to work with a dog with TRUE behavioral issues, perhaps this is not the thread for you to comment on. My Apologies to the OP ( original poster) that you are seeing all of this arguing going on when you came here looking for guidance. At the end of the day, if it's your dog, it's your choice. We all love our dogs, if we didn't we would not be here in a COMMUNITY OF SUPPORT. And yes, Invisible fence is the same thing. only much more harsh than an e-collar. Funny how that is deemed acceptable by most.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I'll take a stab!!
Because with boundary training..the boundary is not variable. It is easy for a dog to figure out where the stim will happen and avoid it. With a mere human holding the control...there is the potential for many variables that 'can' occur ...more experienced trainers reduce the variables....

A person I know well (not an experienced trainer) ruined her dog with an e-collar.
Dog liked to go up to the property line and bark at the neighbors lab...
She got herself a collar and popped it on the dog.
She stood indoors...dog ran to property line, barked and she nicked him....each nick was preceded with the collars beeping sound. 
He didnt stop so she increased the stim...
Now, surprise! she has a dog that doesnt bark at the property line, but acts aggressively toward black labs and cowers when he hears a truck backing up or her phone beep when the battery is low.






Maggies mom said:


> Let me ask this... how is the e-collar any different than having an Invisible fence? I know a lot of places wont let you have a real fence , so people put in the invisible fence.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

LibertyME said:


> I'll take a stab!!
> *Because with boundary training..the boundary is not variable. It is easy for a dog to figure out where the stim will happen and avoid it. With a mere human holding the control..*.there is the potential for many variables that 'can' occur ...more experienced trainers reduce the variables....
> 
> A person I know well (not an experienced trainer) ruined her dog with an e-collar.
> ...


Yes on an invisible fence the dog learns "where" the stim will happen. With an e collar the dog will learn "when" the stim will happen. Other than that no difference.
This person you speak of is an idiot putting it mildly
I also used the e collar for my boundary training with excellent results.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

It can go both ways, I know someone who got the IF and didnt train her dog correctly and she ended up taken it out because the dog was afraid to go off her deck. My point was more to the fact that the people who are anti e-collars because the dogs were being shocked, to me its no different then an IF shock. Shock is a Shock. To the OP, if you purchase a e-collar , Please work with a trainer who knows how to use them correctly. People will disagree and People will agree, you need to do what you feel is right for you and your dog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tuckers Mom said:


> It's amazing to me how these threads get so out of control. This needs to come to an end, we can go 20 pages long and have an Internet Peeing contest to see who gets to have their point made. e-collars do not hurt a dog, those of you whom have never used one under the training and supervision of a qualified trainer and are making claims on how we are all hurting and electricuting our dogs into submission need to just digress. If you aren't qualified to give a constructive answer in this discussion, and only want to continue argue, especially if you have NEVER had to work with a dog with TRUE behavioral issues, perhaps this is not the thread for you to comment on. My Apologies to the OP ( original poster) that you are seeing all of this arguing going on when you came here looking for guidance. At the end of the day, if it's your dog, it's your choice. We all love our dogs, if we didn't we would not be here in a COMMUNITY OF SUPPORT. And yes, Invisible fence is the same thing. only much more harsh than an e-collar. Funny how that is deemed acceptable by most.


Actually I don't see any arguments here. As long as everyone can act mature and repect others opinions it just might help dismiss some of the horrible rumors that e collars get. Kowledge is key, ignorance is bliss


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

> You said "There are other ways; be it a bit harder; involving more training, time repetition; holding back fustrations...but in the end the bond is formed." *How is that not also saying that those who train with collars aregetting frustrated and not training enough*? And you "know" you can get your dog to come to you without inflicting pain. That, to me, is implying that your dog is trained better than mine because you didn't have to use the collar to get that. Sure, you didn't put my name in it but you were generalizing about those who use collars. So thats me, meaning everything you wish to say about collars and collar trainers should be applied to me. I don't hurt mydog, any more than he gets hurt being nipped at by my other dog during play (in fact, probably much less). I love my dog.


When I wrote this, based on the description I quoted originally, I perceived the shock collar as being a tool to force a dog to comply via pain and intimidation. To me, those are shortcuts to training. I've been corrected since that this is not true.

It is unfortunate you choose to take my words and read a personal, double meaning in them. Again, they are not about you, but about how I perceived how this training device works. I am glad my perception was incorrect although I still would not choose to use it.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Have you ever used an e collar?


Actually, I sold them for many years and only sold them to people that had set up instruction with a trainer who trained at my shop. It's just a pet peeve of mine that people will say that it doesn't hurt the dog. Just own it...it _does_ hurt them. 

Never said that other training methods didn't hurt, but to say that the stims are not uncomfortable/painful is irresponsible. There are people reading this thread that have an ecollar they just went out and bought it with no instructions. Then you make a statement like that and they'll shock their dogs on a higher level because someone on a board said it didn't hurt! :uhoh: 

Most people with ecollars have no clue what they're doing...to reinforce that it's not painful to the dog just adds to their ignorance. You say if it's done correctly it's not painful...well, let me tell you that most people using ecollars believe they are doing it correctly, when in reality, I'll say it again, they have _absolutely no clue as to what they're doing_...and it's the poor dog that suffers because they read that the stim wasn't painful...it just gets their attention.

Most people that get ecollars are doing so in frustration. Bad idea! But it's true. The people that know what they're doing are in the minority. I've worked in pet retail for 35 years and most people have no clue how to train their dogs. They see the ecollar as a magic fix. 

I had many, many people leave my shop to buy a collar elsewhere because, as I stated earlier, I wouldn't sell one without the customer getting professional instruction with them. I also wouldn't sell a prong without the dog being there for as proper fit and instruction from me on how to use them.

Wanted to add: I don't think people that use ecollars abuse their dogs...I think that in the _*right hands*_ it is a useful training tool. Would I ever use one? Absolutely not. I believe there are other training methods that work just as well, if not better. But I'm not condemning those that choose the ecollar, I just wish everyone that uses/buys one would get the proper training.

Also every dog's level of pain tolerence is different. To say that the lowest setting is not painful is grouping all dogs together. One dog may feel the lowest stim to be just an annoyance, where the next dog might actually feel it as painful and may cause anxiety. Again, every dog is different and to say otherwise, IMO, is wrong.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Actually, I sold them for many years and only sold them to people that had set up instruction with a trainer who trained at my shop. It's just a pet peeve of mine that people will say that it doesn't hurt the dog. Just own it...it _does_ hurt them.
> 
> Never said that other training methods didn't hurt, but to say that the stims are not uncomfortable/painful is irresponsible. There are people reading this thread that have an ecollar they just went out and bought it with no instructions. Then you make a statement like that and they'll shock their dogs on a higher level because someone on a board said it didn't hurt! :uhoh:
> 
> ...


So you have not actually used one on a dog. And if you had read *any of my posts *you wouldn't be quoting me with your frustration. If anyone was reading my posts they would have read that *I would not recommend getting a e collar without the proper training. *And I also mentioned they are not for everyone. So I have confidence that if some people went out and bought one and used it with no instructions it wasn't because of my posts....
And I would also like to add that I don't think proper use of e collars is in the minority, however I believe alot of people are not aware of how many people use them with success because of the bad rap they get. I know I don't go around advertising, but if someone asks I will be happy to explain it to them. I have been friends with people for years who have no idea I use one 
I think that your frustration comes in that these can be purchased by anyone. We need to put the blame where it belongs......to the abuser. Abusers will figure out a way to abuse their dogs regardless if e collars were available or not.......that is the harsh reality.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> *Also every dog's level of pain tolerence is different. *To say that the lowest setting is not painful is grouping all dogs together. One dog may feel the lowest stim to be just an annoyance, where the next dog might actually feel it as painful and may cause anxiety. Again, every dog is different and to say otherwise, IMO, is wrong.


 
Absolutely and nobody is arguing this. I never said the lowest setting would be the same sensation in a group of dogs. I would never make a blanket statement of such. I said the lowest level is nothing more than an annoyance in *my dog*
_Another reason why some of us have stated over and over to get properly trained. And that not every dog or person is a good candidate for one........_


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Not to be a smart...*ahem*...lol but how do you know how it feels to your dog?? You may assume it's just an annoyance because your dog isn't physically showing pain, but a lot of our goldens are such stoic animals that we really never know if they're in pain.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Not to be a smart...*ahem*...lol but how do you know how it feels to your dog?? You may assume it's just an annoyance because your dog isn't physically showing pain, but a lot of our goldens are such stoic animals that we really never know if they're in pain.


 
Day number one of training with an e-collar: YOU put it on YOURSELF and stimulate it, you know how it feels on YOU, and then you asess your dogs reaction to the stimulus when applied to them. You don't just wrap it around their neck and *SHOCK* them. you apply gradual sensation until desired attention ( *heavy emphasis on attention, not PAIN* ) is reached by your doggie. Tucker cocked his head from side to side as in " what is that?".... it is that level of stimulus that he gets IF I have to do it at all, and frankly, I can't remember the last time I had to.... his recall now is almost soley on name call, and a beep tone to the collar and he comes running to me for reward.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Not to be a smart...*ahem*...lol but how do you know how it feels to your dog?? You may assume it's just an annoyance because your dog isn't physically showing pain, but a lot of our goldens are such stoic animals that we really never know if they're in pain.


You can tell by their reaction.......that is why it has different levels. It's not an assumption it is the reaction. You are trained not to cause them pain.....


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

That's my point. Some dogs don't have a visible reaction to pain. They just tolerate it.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

SIGH.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Tuckers Mom said:


> Day number one of training with an e-collar: YOU put it on YOURSELF and stimulate it, you know how it feels on YOU, and then you asess your dogs reaction to the stimulus when applied to them. You don't just wrap it around their neck and *SHOCK* them. you apply gradual sensation until desired attention ( *heavy emphasis on attention, not PAIN* ) is reached by your doggie. Tucker cocked his head from side to side as in " what is that?".... it is that level of stimulus that he gets *IF I have to do it at all, and frankly, I can't remember the last time I had to*.... his recall now is almost soley on name call, and a beep tone to the collar and he comes running to me for reward.


I think this is the point alot are missing. I can't recall the last time I used it on Wyatt either.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

I'm not saying I don't think they should be used at all...but I don't think people should be referring to them as a mild annoyance when they can't truly know without a doubt how it feels to the dog. People may see you saying that and assume that if their dog doesn't have a physical reaction, it isn't strong eough. Also, "shock" collar isn't an incorrect way of describing it. Just because it "isn't painful" doesn't mean it isn't a shock.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> I'm not saying I don't think they should be used at all...but I don't think people should be referring to them as a mild annoyance when they can't truly know without a doubt how it feels to the dog. People may see you saying that and assume that if their dog doesn't have a physical reaction, it isn't strong eough. Also, "shock" collar isn't an incorrect way of describing it. Just because it "isn't painful" doesn't mean it isn't a shock.


 
This is why we recommend people to take the class and experience it for themselves to better understand how it works. You won't believe it unless you experience it yourself. I was the biggest disbeliever there was.
I know which level is annoying to my dog and I also know which level I would never use nor would have to. Each one of my dogs have a different level because no dog is created equal.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Enzos_Mom said:


> People may see you saying that and assume that if their dog doesn't have a physical reaction, it isn't strong enough.


Excellent point.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> And I would also like to add that I don't think proper use of e collars is in the minority....
> 
> Abusers will figure out a way to abuse their dogs regardless if e collars were available or not.......that is the harsh reality.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the first part. 

The second part...we're not talking abusers here at all...I'm talking the average dog owner that wants an easy out to train their dog. The type that would _never_ pay hundreds of dollars for a well made collar, but will instead order a subpar model off the internet and never consult a trainer. They just throw it on their dog and start pushing buttons. To me, _that's_ the harsh reality...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree on the first part.
> 
> The second part...we're not talking abusers here at all*...I'm talking the average dog owner that wants an easy out to train their dog.* *The type that would never pay hundreds of dollars for a well made collar, but will instead order a subpar model off the internet and never consult a trainer. They just throw it on their dog and start pushing buttons. To me, that's the harsh reality..*.


You don't call that abuse That is no fault of the collar......


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You don't call that abuse......


No...I call that ignorance.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> No...I call that ignorance.


Abuse is abuse......ignorance is just an excuse IMO. You can't possibly make me believe that they couldn't tell that they are hurting the dog....no way in [email protected]@ could I believe this......even if the ignorant person couldn't feel it they could see the visual......:no::no:
So again the ecollar gets a bad rap because the abuser was ignorant but meant well......that is why we need to put a label on a hairdryers to make sure you don't use it while in the tub.......

This is why it is important to get the correct information out there......and this is a good place to start.


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

Here is a link to an interesting article written by the Brelands, who were early proponents of clicker training and students of Skinners. Classics in the History of Psychology -- Breland & Breland (1961) They found that in training animals, instinct overrode clicker conditioning and that it was wise to know the natural behaviors of the animal you are training. Dogs, as has already been stated on here, when in intense prey drive are not interested in treats or toys. Control also diminishes with distance. My dogs enjoy many freedoms they would not otherwise have without ecollars. They can safely trail ride with me and not tangle with wildlife on the trails. Or worse yet, chase deer onto a road and have a person potentially killed or injured with a deer/car collision. They have a strong bond with me and are very highly trained, as a correctly cc dog knows the commands well before collar pressure is introduced. In fact probably has much more training than the average dog. The collar lets them know that , yes, I can enforce a command if they are 200 yards away and a fox is running in front of them. Undesirable behavior has consequences for everyone in life and I would prefer that the consequence be a collar correction rather than the dog being injured by wildlife or a car.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

If my dog was on the tail of a fox and he was really so determined to get it that me calling him wouldn't make him stop, I don't think a "mild annoyance" would do the trick. If it is only "mildly annoying" like everyone is saying it is, I don't think it would really do much if your dog was determined to do whatever it is that he wanted to do.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Abuse is abuse......ignorance is just an excuse IMO. You can't possibly make me believe that they couldn't tell that they are hurting the dog....no way in [email protected]@ could I believe this......even if the ignorant person couldn't feel it they could see the visual......:no::no:
> So again the ecollar gets a bad rap because the abuser was ignorant but meant well......that is why we need to put a label on a hairdryers to make sure you don't use it while in the tub.......


You are taking my posts so out of context...did I say that this person would hit the highest stim? No, I didn't. What I meant was that with no instruction or training this method _will fail_ and they're back to square one...an untrained dog with probably even more issues than before. And because they used an ecollar incorrectly, the dog will most likely have a lot of anxiety added to the mix.

I believe that only qualified trainers or training facilities should be able to sell ecollars or that you should have some type of certification to buy one. I know that's not practical, but it would sure solve many issues associated with this training method. 

Maybe everyone will eventually follow Wales' lead...


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

So as a last resort, I am going to go for the shock collar. I can't believe she's brought me to this level actually. I never thought I would do this with her. 

"Im planning on getting one of those vibration/shock mixture collars hoping she'll get the message once I use the vibration before the electrical shock part. Oh and I plan on using it only when we talk our walks and when when we're playing outside so she listens more and doesn't run off into the wild blue yonder because there's a dog out there. "

This was part of the original post. If she hadn't come to her fellow forum friends she may have just bought any e-collar and used it incorrectly. She may not have searched for a trainer to advise her on this. 
How many jqp that truly love their dogs just go get one?



I think everyone that has used an e-collar (on here) has stated that they really aren't for a dog that doesn't have enough basic obedience already. That they are for more advanced work.

Many owners do not have a support system like this one or even one in real life. Many will attempt to take the easy way out when frustrated.

For this thread for people and dogs still in the very basics of learning I don't believe the e collar should be for them.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I've watched this thread grow longer and longer so had to peek in and see why.

I have an e-collar that beeps. I taught Ike to return to me on a beep so that he could be off leash at my inlaws. I used it over one summer and haven't had to use it again. We also have an invisible fence. We installed our own fence. My husband and son actually put the collar on themselves and ran thru the fence. They yelped, jumped, and laughed...guys! I used the beep of the collar in conjunction with the flags to teach the boundaries. The shock was set to it's lowest possible setting since it didn't have an off switch. I put the collar on very loosely so that neither dog felt a shock. They learned the fence just fine without being shocked.

As for hyper greeters, Ike is one. I can't imagine the collar being useful in this situation. I hope you find something that works for you.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I used to astound people at the beach when Sally would run like the wind down the beach after sea gulls, I would call her, and she would turn on a dime and come back to me. It depends on the dog. I NEVER used anything negative with Sally. (i.e. no shock, no choke, no prong) She was the golden who got me started on the breed... I mistakenly thought they were all like her.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

I said it once before and I will say it one last time, It's THEIR DOG, it's THEIR CHOICE. If you don't agree with this type of training why keep coming over to this thread and posting your point of view? it's agree to disagree. I don't happen to agree with lots of things that folks do at the dog park with their dogs, yelling, screaming, allowing their ill behaved dogs to attack other dogs out of sheer frustration and lack of leadership. My dog goes to the park daily with his e-collar on, plays, retrieves, and rolls on the ground with other dogs in friendly play battles. He sleeps soundly ON my feet, gives me his undying devotion, LISTENS to me, and most importantly, He loves both Myself and my Husband dearly. We took a scared, untrained, potentially agressive shelter dog, and trained him into being the best dog we have ever owned to date. It took patience, patience, training, obedience, clicker, PATIENCE, and YES, an E-collar. the combination of all of these methods achieved the goal of helping our Boy become confident, sweet, and well adjusted.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Nobody here is saying that no one should ever use an e-collar. We're just saying that leaving some of these things said out in a PUBLIC thread where anyone can see and leave open to their own interpretation isn't the safest thing ever. You can't always see if something is physically hurting a dog based on how it reacts. To some dogs, it isn't a mild annoyance. People don't use the term "shock collar" because it makes them feel better, but, in reality, you ARE shocking your dog. That's what it is, whether it hurts or it's a mild annoyance. We're not saying that it doesn't work for ANY dog. We're saying that it doesn't work for EVERY dog. There is a LOT of generalizing going on by people who are advocating the use of electric collars. Based on the OP, no, I don't think a shock collar (sorry, e-collar) would be the best course of action. For another dog? Maybe. But not in that situation. Some people just seem to take anything said as such an absolute. People posting here saying that they wouldn't recommend it for the OP somehow is taken as an attack on anyone who has ever used an e-collar, which is not what anybody meant at all. My whole point in even posting in this thread in the first place is that just because YOUR dog physically shows when he is feeling pain or feeling discomfort doesn't mean that every dog does, so making a general statement that you "watch the dog" to see how they react and adjust accordingly is a bad message to be sending to people. Whether you intend for them to use your post as "training" or not, they may read it and think "oh, it worked like that for her so it will work like that for me" and that could be _dangerous. _So, please, just take a step back and see that none of this is a personal attack on any of you. It's just an attempt to educate the public that may read this that e-collars aren't something to mess around with all willy nilly.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> You are taking my posts so out of context...did I say that this person would hit the highest stim? No, I didn't. What I meant was that with no instruction or training this method _will fail_ and they're back to square one...an untrained dog with probably even more issues than before. And because they used an ecollar incorrectly, the dog will most likely have a lot of anxiety added to the mix.
> 
> I believe that only qualified trainers or training facilities should be able to sell ecollars or that you should have some type of certification to buy one. I know that's not practical, but it would sure solve many issues associated with this training method.
> 
> Maybe everyone will eventually follow Wales' lead...


I apologize if I took your post out of context. I understand because mine have been taken out of context on several of my posts, so I know how you feel and I am sorry I was going by your post that they would just put the collar on and start pushing buttons....dangerous and abusive IMHO.
Any kind of training or tool if not used or done correctly can cause problems. And I also agree that it would be wise that they could only be available thru an experienced trainer....but I also know that is not practical.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

solinvictus said:


> So as a last resort, I am going to go for the shock collar. I can't believe she's brought me to this level actually. I never thought I would do this with her.
> 
> "Im planning on getting one of those vibration/shock mixture collars hoping she'll get the message once I use the vibration before the electrical shock part. Oh and I plan on using it only when we talk our walks and when when we're playing outside so she listens more and doesn't run off into the wild blue yonder because there's a dog out there. "
> 
> ...


absolutely.



Enzos_Mom said:


> Nobody here is saying that no one should ever use an e-collar. We're just saying that leaving some of these things said out in a PUBLIC thread where anyone can see and leave open to their own interpretation isn't the safest thing ever. You can't always see if something is physically hurting a dog based on how it reacts. To some dogs, it isn't a mild annoyance. People don't use the term "shock collar" because it makes them feel better, but, in reality, you ARE shocking your dog. That's what it is, whether it hurts or it's a mild annoyance. We're not saying that it doesn't work for ANY dog. We're saying that it doesn't work for EVERY dog. There is a LOT of generalizing going on by people who are advocating the use of electric collars. Based on the OP, no, I don't think a shock collar (sorry, e-collar) would be the best course of action. For another dog? Maybe. But not in that situation. Some people just seem to take anything said as such an absolute. People posting here saying that they wouldn't recommend it for the OP somehow is taken as an attack on anyone who has ever used an e-collar, which is not what anybody meant at all. My whole point in even posting in this thread in the first place is that just because YOUR dog physically shows when he is feeling pain or feeling discomfort doesn't mean that every dog does, so making a general statement that you "watch the dog" to see how they react and adjust accordingly is a bad message to be sending to people. Whether you intend for them to use your post as "training" or not, they may read it and think "oh, it worked like that for her so it will work like that for me" and that could be _dangerous. _So, please, just take a step back and see that none of this is a personal attack on any of you. It's just an attempt to educate the public that may read this that e-collars aren't something to mess around with all willy nilly.


I have to kindly disagree with you. What better place to ask questions about a dog training tool you know nothing about A dog forum Here you will get opinions, suggestions and recomendations from all sides. So far all the recommendations from people that are experienced and use the collar told the op that the e collar is not the right tool for her problem. None of us are advocating it, we are just trying to let people know it is a tool that if used proplerly will result in great results. Thats what needs to posted for people to read.......and I know I can't convince you on the intensity levels....no not every dog will have the same level....that IS one of the reasons for the training.......YOU need to take the class, get educated and find out for yourself how it works. Instead of just throwing out an uneducated guess that we don't know if we are hurting our dogs or not....You will be surprised


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

> *we are just trying to let people know it is a tool that if used proplerly will result in great results*


If that's all that was posted, that would be fine. But there were some generalizations that were also posted that needed to be clarified.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> If that's all that was posted, that would be fine. But there were some generalizations that were also posted that needed to be clarified.


I'm sorry I must have missed them

Edited to say.......read and saw one user get frustrated, which is understandable...... others all recommended training......could it have been another post taken out of context LOL!


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Nobody here is saying that no one should ever use an e-collar. We're just saying that leaving some of these things said out in a PUBLIC thread where anyone can see and leave open to their own interpretation isn't the safest thing ever. You can't always see if something is physically hurting a dog based on how it reacts. To some dogs, it isn't a mild annoyance. People don't use the term "shock collar" because it makes them feel better, but, in reality, you ARE shocking your dog. That's what it is, whether it hurts or it's a mild annoyance. We're not saying that it doesn't work for ANY dog. We're saying that it doesn't work for EVERY dog. There is a LOT of generalizing going on by people who are advocating the use of electric collars. Based on the OP, no, I don't think a shock collar (sorry, e-collar) would be the best course of action. For another dog? Maybe. But not in that situation. Some people just seem to take anything said as such an absolute. People posting here saying that they wouldn't recommend it for the OP somehow is taken as an attack on anyone who has ever used an e-collar, which is not what anybody meant at all. My whole point in even posting in this thread in the first place is that just because YOUR dog physically shows when he is feeling pain or feeling discomfort doesn't mean that every dog does, so making a general statement that you "watch the dog" to see how they react and adjust accordingly is a bad message to be sending to people. Whether you intend for them to use your post as "training" or not, they may read it and think "oh, it worked like that for her so it will work like that for me" and that could be _dangerous. _So, please, just take a step back and see that none of this is a personal attack on any of you. It's just an attempt to educate the public that may read this that e-collars aren't something to mess around with all willy nilly.


To the "shocking" term. I'm not sure it really is a shock. I have tried it all the way up to one higher than the highest I use for my dog. I would describe it as a stimulation. It makes your muscle contract, like a twitch. Obviously as the level goes up, the stronger the contraction. It's not a shock like a jolt of electricity feels (which I have felt as well). 

I appreciate your concern. Truly. My concern is for the dog as well. However, I have to point out that MOST of us who use an e-collar DID NOT really recommend it to the PO. Reading about where she is with the dog, I would not (and did not). Unfortunately, as someone pointed out, it is their dog and they have the right to decide how to train. I just wanted to make sure that if the OP did decide to choose to use a collar that they use it CAREFULLY and with professional help. 

Those who don't use collars are also making "generalizations" in this thread. I don't take it as a personal attack, but when someone says they would never use one because it hurts the dog, well, that says I am hurting my dog. That is personal, and I take exception to that. I take in personally in the sense that you are talking about something that I do, meaning you are talking about ME when you are saying things about e-collars. Maybe you don't mean to. Maybe you mean to say "inexperienced users." Not sure, because a lot of what has been said about it has been generalizations.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

mlopez said:


> I don't take it as a personal attack, but when someone says they would never use one because it hurts the dog, well, that says I am hurting my dog.


I don't know if I said that or not, (there's been a lot of posts back and forth ), but that _is_ one reason I wouldn't use it. That along with using other methods that I've found to work better _for me_. _I_ would be uncomfortable using the collar so I know that _I could never commit to it_. I have also never used a prong collar for the same reasons, I'm not comfortable with them. This includes my Danes, which weighed anywhere from 130 lbs. to 175 lbs. All trained with flat collars. Recalls were _very_ good, not 100%, but I don't believe there is any command that's 100% reliable. They're animals, not robots.  Again, that's JMO. 

Have I been lucky with all my dogs? Maybe...but I'm also comfortable with what I use and I believe in it. Again, I don't condemn anyone using the methods that I won't, if it works and your dogs are happy while training, great. Flat collars aren't for everyone either, right?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

mlopez said:


> I don't take it as a personal attack, *but when someone says they would never use one because it hurts the dog, well, that says I am hurting my dog. *That is personal, and I take exception to that.


Don't take it personal. I said the same thing before I had the opportunity to train with e collar......I had no clue:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Enzos_Mom said:


> That's my point. Some dogs don't have a visible reaction to pain. They just tolerate it.


This is a really important concept to remember when you train any dog and especially a GR. I had a dog who tore the leather off his pads while chasing frisbees in a parking lot and ran on the raw bloody pads without showing it at all. The same dog gashed his leg in the rain while working and didn't show any signs until he was toweled off and we saw blood all over the towel. Eight staples!

Or Jax, who bashed his face on a rock by misjudging a jump and never flinched, even though it took some of the fur clean off, bled a little from the scrape, and his eye eventually swelled shut like a shiner. There was absolutely no sign in his behavior of how severely he had clocked himself.

It can be _very_ difficult to judge how much pain a Golden is in. It's really important to remember that when you deal with correction and medical issues.

I would also add that when you're trying to figure out if a particular stimulus is hurting a dog, it helps to remember that if the problem is that you can't break through a dog's extreme distraction, it takes a relatively unpleasant feeling to do so. That doesn't mean that punishment is evil or wrong. It just means that you have to be realistic about what you're doing when you're using punishment to break through a serious distraction.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

While I can't offer any advice on a shock collar, I can tell you something that worked for us with Tucker when no treat could gain his attention on a walk. Use your dogs meals as training treats during walks. Your pup will learn real quickly to pay attention to you on lead because if she doesn't, she isn't going to eat. Trust me, this isn't cruel. Tucker missed exactly one meal before he realized it was in his best interest to pay attention to me on his walks. It helped us gain control over his overstimulation and allowed him to realize paying attention to us meant good things for him. Once we got over that hurdle, we could feed him normally and he would respond to treats on walks. I now know that when Tucker won't take a treat when we are out and about that he is stressed by something, so we will just take a seat on a bench until he settles and his energy is better. After a minute or 2 he will have settled enough to take a treat and I know we can start our training. Personally, I don't think you need that shock collar just yet...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> This is a really important concept to remember when you train any dog and especially a GR. I had a dog who tore the leather off his pads while chasing frisbees in a parking lot and ran on the raw bloody pads without showing it at all. The same dog gashed his leg in the rain while working and didn't show any signs until he was toweled off and we saw blood all over the towel. Eight staples!
> 
> Or Jax, who bashed his face on a rock by misjudging a jump and never flinched, even though it took some of the fur clean off, bled a little from the scrape, and his eye eventually swelled shut like a shiner. There was absolutely no sign in his behavior of how severely he had clocked himself.
> 
> ...


I agree with you to the extent that it doesn't just pertain to goldens. And I would also like to mention I think most people know their dogs personality and tolerance....at least on a board like this I would hope so. If you don't all bets are off IMO.
My two were different as night and day. Wyatt is more sensitive and emotional......while Cody was tough as a rock. He was one that did run full on into our stone mailbox and 5 stiches later. Tough as nails but his prey drive was just as tough. Infact the collar works well on these types of dogs. Personally I would worry more about the sensitive ones.
I would also like to mention that while they might experience that uncomfortable stim.......more than likely it will be their last. After that you will be putting the collar on for insurance purpose only. I won't say never...but far and few. Which will probably be less uncomfortable than running into stone mailboxes and playing until their paws are bloody


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

eniseanas said:


> She's almost 14 months old now and the puppy crazies have not improved.
> 
> Her problem is, she is almost always extremely excited when she sees other dogs. We have socialized her early, we excersize everyday and she almost never barks indoors.
> 
> ...


If you choose to go with an Ecollar, A few things......

1. Don't mess around, spend the money and get a good one. The less expensive collars are not very durable and are VERY inconsistant in their operation. Inconsistency is counter productive in dog training. Don't go there. 

2. Get a good instructional program on how to collar condition your dog. (Mike Lardy has produced a good one that is widely available).

3. Seek the aid of somebody who knows what they're doing. Getting and hour or two of help from a professional won't break the bank and will help keep you on the right path.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

O.K., I stayed out of the conversation for a long time, but I decided it was time to jump in.

The application of a "nick" from an E collar is an "aversive" and to work as an aversive it must create a sensation that the dog wants to avoid. It really is as simple as that. It is not simply something that "gets a dog's attention" or "reminds him" it creates a sensation the dog wants to avoid, therefore in someway it must be uncomfortable....it must cause discomfort. When a dog is collar conditioned and the tone is used instead of the "stimulation" it is an "avoidance response" basically the dog has learned, through fear, to the shock. This is actually an example of negative reinforcement (see Excel-erated Learning by Pamela Reid PhD). In certain learning situations it is EXTREMELY effective, but there is no avoiding the reality that the point of an E-collar is to cause discomfort or to threaten to use discomfort.

How uncomfortable is a shock or E-collar that depends on the dog and the level of "stimulation/shock" and it is hard to tell. I used a shock collar to train my dog to call off of chasing deer. I understood that for it to work it would need to hurt/cause pain to my dog (and in reality we all know that or else it would be our first choice in training because it is so effective) but that was something I was willing to do to prevent another dead dog (My Doonie was killed by a car when he was chasing a deer). I was willing to cause my dog significant pain in order to prevent something worse. I tried the collar on myself first and believe me it was a feeling I wanted to avoid! Before I put it on my dogs I would test out the level I planned to use with my fingers on the probes and I had an instinctive response to pull my fingers away, not even under my control. But you know what? That was what I needed to break through Selli's chase drive.

In terms of "knowing" your dog, that can also be deceptive. In general I would say Selli, my Golden was a soft dog...she can not handle any kind of leash pops and verbal corrections can throw her off her game in agility, so I though one "nick" at a low level would work for her. On the other hand My Duffy is pretty resistant to verbal corrections (when I yell at him for rolling in gross stuff he gets up, gives me a grin and trots off) and can handle being pulled away from groundhogs on a choke chain while still fighting to get back at the critter, so I thought he would be rather immune to the shock collar. Believe me, I know dogs well and knew my dogs even better, however I was dead wrong. After two "nicks" Duffy was walking dejectedly behind us and refused to leave the path and Selli was like "La La what's the deal?" It took quite a strong shock, one which made her yelp, to break through her focus on the deer.

It worked and I would probably do it again but I would NEVER use it in any situation that was directly (and I mean DIRECTLY) related to their imminent safety because I realized it was a trade off between my hurting my dogs and their future safety.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> A prong collar _will not_ associate discomfort with another dog. A prong collar is a great tool to keep strong dogs from pulling on the leash.....I would suggest that you get a trainer to come to your home and walk around the neighborhood with you so she can show you what to do when you approach another dog.


I train many pet dogs and owners every week, and I think a prong collar has a very high risk with a certain type of overthreshold dog who is already on his toes and ready. In inexpert hands, prong collars can cause pain/irritation, and dogs do react to that feeling with redirected aggression. Owners can be bitten; other dogs can be bitten.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> I used to astound people at the beach when Sally would run like the wind down the beach after sea gulls, I would call her, and she would turn on a dime and come back to me. It depends on the dog. I NEVER used anything negative with Sally. (i.e. no shock, no choke, no prong) She was the golden who got me started on the breed... I mistakenly thought they were all like her.


Ditto Finn. He will run full speed after birds or to greet someone at the beach, and turn on a dime and return when called. That goes for deer in the woods too. He has not missed a recall in 8 years, and I am very proud of this. I have close to 100 percent confidence in him. I think an astounding recall has to do with carefully building a recall history from a very early age- creating a drive to recall, and making it more rewarding than anything else, and abiding by all the things people know( like not leashing your dog every time he comes etc).


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> I train many pet dogs and owners every week, and I think a prong collar has a very high risk with a certain type of overthreshold dog who is already on his toes and ready. In inexpert hands, prong collars can cause pain/irritation, and dogs do react to that feeling with redirected aggression. Owners can be bitten; other dogs can be bitten.


E collars and prong collars should not be recommended to every dog or owner because both can cause harm if not used correctly. But both are highly effective. 

Once your dog is conditioned with the e collar (which of course will be uncomfortable in the training) and the dog will want to avoid that. But _once they are conditioned_ you can use the tone and low stim. And it will get their attention. If they are focused on a prey the low stem or tone will bring them out and get their attention. It's all about timing and the command (which you learn in training)......you want to get their attention before they bolt.....this has been my experience to the T. You have to read your dog. Once they bolt and are out of control then and only then you will need to give them that higher stim......and let me tell you once they are out of your sight and your heart drops, you will thank god you have that remote in your hand and the collar around his neck. Nothing more frightening to think your dog is lost in the desert. Been there done that.
My Cody had been trained off leash for about 4 years and we were walking down a trail ajacent to a road that hardly ever gets used. He saw a cat (and he never gets excited about cats because he lived with them) well long story short, he thought it would be fun to play chase. Before I realized what happened he was gone, down the hill towards the road. My loud command meant nadda. I grabbed the remote and hit it and yelled his command. He stopped short of the curb, cat ran out in the street and car runs over cat
It is not recommended for every dog or owner. It is used for the safety of off leash dogs who know AND understand their commands. Hunting dogs, working dogs (k9) *all at the highest level* of training use them. So that in fact shows you no matter how well trained they are they are still animals and need to be pulled to safety from time to time.
I would also like to mention they are highly effective for dogs that bolt out their front doors and cause chase and harm. I know I have read on here alot that people can't break them from doing this no matter how much training they had. I would always recommend a personal trainer first and foremost. But if it might save them from getting hit by a car, it might be an option.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Hunting dogs, working dogs (k9) *all at the highest level* of training use them. So that in fact shows you no matter how well trained they are they are still animals and need to be pulled to safety from time to time.


Not all police working dogs use them and they're also trained at the highest level. In fact in Wales and England ecollars and prong collars have been banned from the police dept. for the last ten years. They use alternative training methods that definitely work. Just take a look at some of their videos on You Tube. Their dogs are just as effective in their work as ours are. I've also heard, that the two top dog working groups in the UK are against using ecollars.

It's a personal choice, but I just wanted to get it out there that even *at the highest level* of training there are other alternatives to ecollars to get the desired results.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Not all police working dogs use them and they're also trained at the highest level. In fact in Wales and England ecollars and prong collars have been banned from the police dept. for the last ten years. They use alternative training methods that definitely work. Just take a look at some of their videos on You Tube. Their dogs are just as effective in their work as ours are. I've also heard, that the two top dog working groups in the UK are against using ecollars.
> 
> It's a personal choice, but I just wanted to get it out there that even *at the highest level* of training there are other alternatives to ecollars to get the desired results.


Very true that is why I was careful in my wording to not make a blanket statement  However it does not change the fact that they are used everyday with success in a humane way without ill effects.
You will always have groups for and against anything and everything until the day we die.....that is just human nature. Doesn't make them right or wrong..... Heck even some rescues won't adopt out dogs who desperately need homes if both parents work full time....they have their opinions........and I have mine: 
But most importantly get educated.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

kwhit said:


> Not all police working dogs use them and they're also trained at the highest level. In fact in Wales and England ecollars and prong collars have been banned from the police dept. for the last ten years. They use alternative training methods that definitely work. Just take a look at some of their videos on You Tube. Their dogs are just as effective in their work as ours are. I've also heard, that the two top dog working groups in the UK are against using ecollars.
> 
> It's a personal choice, but I just wanted to get it out there that even *at the highest level* of training there are other alternatives to ecollars to get the desired results.


In Wales e-collars are now actually illegal and a person was recently fined £2,000 with £1,000 costs for using one on his collie. I don't think it will be long before England follows suit. E-collars and prong collars are not commonly used in this country and are generally thought to be unacceptable tools to use when training a dog.


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## akgolden (Jun 18, 2011)

It amazes me to see how extreme some people hate e collars. When used properly they are an EXCELLENT training tool and will not hurt the dog.


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## Tuckers Mom (Nov 12, 2010)

akgolden said:


> It amazes me to see how extreme some people hate e collars. When used properly they are an EXCELLENT training tool and will not hurt the dog.


 
FINALLY. 11+ pages of debate. Don't like them? Don't use them. No one ever said you had to train your dog with one. Those of us who have, and continue to use them understand them, and appreciate how they have helped enhance our training experience with our Dogs.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

*sigh* Talk about misunderstanding posts...none of us said that they should never be used for any dogs ever...generalizations and assumptions at their best.


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## akgolden (Jun 18, 2011)

Tuckers Mom said:


> FINALLY. 11+ pages of debate. Don't like them? Don't use them. No one ever said you had to train your dog with one. Those of us who have, and continue to use them understand them, and appreciate how they have helped enhance our training experience with our Dogs.


Agree 100% I never give anyone grief over how they choose to train their dog. Some methods work better than others, some like one form of training over another. Doesn't make anyone better or worse, just have to find what works for your dog.


Enzos_Mom said:


> *sigh* Talk about misunderstanding posts...none of us said that they should never be used for any dogs ever...generalizations and assumptions at their best.


I don't recall mentioning people saying they should never be used but there is a pretty large amount of users that are quick to post their dislike for them anytime these kind of threads come up. I had a few interesting comments on pics I have posted cause my dog had their e-collars on. 



jwemt81 said:


> Exactly what I was going to say. I can't see ANY reason to use a shock collar whatsoever. In my honest opinion, they should be banned.


And not trying to start a war but in response to no one said they should never be worn..


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

People started commenting on this thread to say that an e-collar wouldn't be appropriate _in the OP's situation_ and the pro e-collar people jumped on us saying that we're all against it. NOBODY IS TELLING YOU NOT TO DO IT WITH YOUR DOG. Plus, one poster kept referring to using an e-collar as positive reinforcement, which it is NOT. Saying that it's positive reinforcement or saying that it's just a mild annoyance to dogs could give the wrong idea to someone who may stumble across this thread. There has been so much talk lately about the benefits of positive reinforcement, so then someone sees here that e-collars are positive reinforcement (which, again, they are not) and they think that this falls into that training category....that could be a dangerous thing. That's all that I'm saying here...


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> *sigh* Talk about misunderstanding posts...none of us said that they should never be used for any dogs ever...generalizations and assumptions at their best.


edited: never mind


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## akgolden (Jun 18, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> People started commenting on this thread to say that an e-collar wouldn't be appropriate _in the OP's situation_ and the pro e-collar people jumped on us saying that we're all against it. NOBODY IS TELLING YOU NOT TO DO IT WITH YOUR DOG. Plus, one poster kept referring to using an e-collar as positive reinforcement, which it is NOT. Saying that it's positive reinforcement or saying that it's just a mild annoyance to dogs could give the wrong idea to someone who may stumble across this thread. There has been so much talk lately about the benefits of positive reinforcement, so then someone sees here that e-collars are positive reinforcement (which, again, they are not) and they think that this falls into that training category....that could be a dangerous thing. That's all that I'm saying here...


Alright. Thanks for clearing that up....


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> People started commenting on this thread to say that an e-collar wouldn't be appropriate _in the OP's situation_ and the pro e-collar people jumped on us saying that we're all against it. NOBODY IS TELLING YOU NOT TO DO IT WITH YOUR DOG. Plus, one poster kept referring to using an e-collar as positive reinforcement, which it is NOT. Saying that it's positive reinforcement or saying that it's just a mild annoyance to dogs could give the wrong idea to someone who may stumble across this thread. There has been so much talk lately about the benefits of positive reinforcement, so then someone sees here that e-collars are positive reinforcement (which, again, they are not) and they think that this falls into that training category....that could be a dangerous thing. That's all that I'm saying here...


Obviously you are so against the collar that you have not read or have not comprended anything that I or some of the other e collar users posted. In fact I was one of the first ecollar users that told the op that it was a BAD IDEA. That it would backfire. And all other users said the same.
I am the poster you are referring to and I would suggest you go back and read all my posts because your accusations are completely wrong. And please when you do don't take my posts out of context...you need to read them all. Because it gets exhausting explaining it over and over again. You don't have to agree but please if you are going to post what I said you need to fill in the blanks it's amazing when you do this how different the message becomes.
It's ok to be opposed to something but please don't make it a them against us as we are all the same humans and we all love our doggies dearly.

Now off I go to play football in the pool with Wyatt.......


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Again, I'm not against all e-collars. I would suggest you go back and read all of my posts because your accusations are completely wrong. And, by the way, I read all of your posts. You DID say that you thought your use of the collar was "positive reinforcement" and you DID say that it was a "mild annoyance". I'm not trying to make it a "them against us", as I don't have problems with e-collars. I DO have a problem with partial information and generalizations being posted for the public (who may not know the full extent of what an e-collar is capable of) to see.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Enzos_Mom said:


> Again, I'm not against all e-collars. I would suggest you go back and read all of my posts because your accusations are completely wrong. And, by the way, I read all of your posts. You DID say that you thought your use of the collar was "positive reinforcement" and you DID say that it was a "mild annoyance". I'm not trying to make it a "them against us", as I don't have problems with e-collars. *I DO have a problem with partial information and generalizations being posted for the public (who may not know the full extent of what an e-collar is capable of) to see*.


That is the reason we are trying to post the correct info about ecollars. So the public and non believers know it should only be taught by experienced trainer/user for dogs that KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THEIR COMMANDS. Not for basic training.....What part of that is partial or generalized??????
And it is a fact that the ecollar is only a minor annoyance to my dog. Fact. He has been professionaly trained.
And I already explained (if you read) that it is used for reinforcement of what he already KNOWS. And the outcome is positive. And I explained I was not using that term as a technical training term thanks to another poster. If someone read *all *the info on this thread they would have to be way out in left field to go purchase an ecollar and slap it on and press the button IMHO> That is what we are trying to avoid.
Not talking about it is what causes the problems. Information and knowledge is the key.
If you are not against the collar than you should help get the correct info out there.......


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

eniseanas said:


> She's almost 14 months old now and the puppy crazies have not improved.
> 
> Her problem is, she is almost always extremely excited when she sees other dogs. We have socialized her early, we excersize everyday and she almost never barks indoors.
> 
> ...


Do you have a fenced-in yard? That would keep her in the yard and other dogs out. You say she is a good walker - that the problem occurs when she sees other dogs. What would happen if you were to let her meet the other dog? What are you afraid she will do? I'm trying to get a better sense of what is going on with her. 

I have three Goldens - and they are great walkers. My oldest Golden, a male, was very active as a puppy - I think the word "hyper" was used by a trainer. Since he has been a puppy, my problem has been that he will get so excited around people - and I am concerned that he could knock someone down. He is not motivated by any kind of treat. He loves people - very much so - to a fault. What worked for me has been a lot of walking with him. He is now five years old and has really slowed down. Still I watch his body language when we are in public. I know what the triggers are for him and don't give him an opportunity to practice his wild excited behavior. I am probably close to your mom's age and I walk him and two other goldens every day and there hasn't been a single incident where he was pulling and going crazy for years - and this is why - I have learned to manage his behavior. 

When he was a puppy, if I saw something that was exciting him, I didn't give him a chance to practice the behavior - I walked him in the opposite direction - walked him pre-dawn - walked him late at night. With a lot of walking - and I think it got easier as he got older - he was "cured". Now we walk on leash and its no big deal. He is very well behaved - but I know for him, that I have to be really careful because of his size. So I leave nothing to chance and still keep my eye on him all the time. 

I'm not going to get into the debate about e-collars or pronged collars - I don't use them - I wouldn't consider them. Still, your problem with your pup can be easily managed. You would get far better results working with a trainer or even better, a behaviorist who can observe your handling of him when you are walking (or your mom's handling) and can see what is going on. 

I hope this helps.


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## SeaMonster (Jul 4, 2011)

How many new friends does your dog meet everyday? Your pup should meet so many people and new dogs every day that it completely normal to her.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

As with everything, consider the source when taking advice. Be careful of professionals who claim to be e collar experts. Yes, you can always find a trainer who refers to the e collar as an "invisible leash" and calls him/herself the dog whisperer of where ever and claims he/she can train any dog within 7 days etc, but these are the people who make local vets and animal shelters cringe bc suppressing unwanted behavior with fear and discomfort is another country from motivating and teaching desired behaviors thoroughly.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> As with everything, consider the source when taking advice. Be careful of professionals who claim to be e collar experts. *Yes, you can always find a trainer who refers to the e collar as an "invisible leash" and calls him/herself the dog whisperer of where ever and claims he/she can train any dog within 7 days etc,* but these are the people who make local vets and animal shelters cringe bc suppressing unwanted behavior with fear and discomfort is another country from motivating and teaching desired behaviors thoroughly.


Agreed! *With ANY kind of trainers*.......research and if possible personal referrals will help avoid such disasters.


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## eniseanas (Jul 1, 2011)

UPDATE: 

So we took Applesauce to the new trainer yesterday and got an hour long consultation on her personality and behavior. This trainer is Carol Brynes from Diamonds in the Ruff, Spokane and has given us a lot of reassurance about our dog. Long story short, she believes Applesauce is not completely out of whack and will be easy to train once we go on schedule with her. So the upcoming months will be very important for us.

But I've felt a bit more relaxed about my dog since she did a few simple exercises with her and showed us that not all avenues are lost. We really needed someone like this to come out and tell us that there are other alternatives in training methods. 

She has convinced us not to get an e-collar or a prong/choke collar because our dog does not seem to have any extreme issues, but it was simply a matter of frustration due to not being able to play with other dogs and people.

She also convinced me to stop having puppy play times with other dogs if they are untrained so they don't feed off each others bad manners. I think in our effort to socialize Applesauce, we have gotten her used to playing with dogs regardless of their manners, so she is addicted to it like a druggie on crack 

We have so much work to do but just wanted to come on and reassure you people that I will NOT be buying an e-collar thanks to my new trainer and your advice on researching this further.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

WONDERFUL!!!! And good luck!!! Please let us know how things progress. :wavey:


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I am so glad you found a trainer you feel comfortable with and that the evaluation has taken away some of your stress.

Keep us posted how you are progressing.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Terrific! Let us know how you do with your new training plan.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

I also am pleased that you have found a trainer who will be able to help and that Applesauce doesn't have any extreme issues. 
I would think that the majority of dogs, particularly the retrievers go through this. They have this intense desire to play and interact with other dogs and meet and greet other people. 
What your trainer say about too much un-strutured puppy play time and learning bad manners from each other I am sure is what I have unwittingly done with my Bonnie. I made the mistake of thinking she was a bit shy and encouraged her to meet and play about too much. I now have the problem of her wanting to play all the time and she is also addicted to the socialising. I have now got to calm things down a bit with Bonnie and she is just coming up to 7 months, which is also the "teenage" stage. The winter months I am hoping will make a difference, when people don't out out and about quite as much and I am sure things will calm down as the puppy stage passes and they get older. Next Spring things will be better and more controlled. It is far better to have a friendly outgoing dog than one who is not happy and relaxed around other people and dogs. 
Best wishes with Applesauce - I'm sure she will be fine.


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