# Hip issues!



## mudEpawz (Jan 20, 2011)

oh no! im so sorry to hear this. I wish I had some advise for you, but Im sure some other members will be more knowledgeable


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

What specifically did your trainer see to come to this conclusion?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Jtpllc said:


> Van Gogh had was at dog training today, when the trainer had passed a comment and said " I'm about 95% positive your dog has hip disp"
> 
> He turns 1 in 10 days, were bringing him to the vet for a x rays on Tuesday, what should I expect? What can I do to keep him healthy from this point forward?
> 
> ...


I had a trainer tell me this once about my GSD. She was wrong...When she saw my current dog she said his hips looked fine yet when I had him xrayed it showed otherwise. 

What makes your trainer think your dog has hip issues and what symptoms (if any) has your dog shown?

As for xrays, some vets will do it without sedation however I would request sedation so they can get a good view since sedation relaxes the muscles so they cannot tense up. Mine was sedated with DexDomitor and after a reversal was given was was and walking after 10-15 minutes and was eating 3 hours later. You can send the x rays off to the OFA to be graded however I never did this. I trusted my vets opinion enough that I opted to just take his word after seeing the xrays myself. Since he is going to be under to I would suggest getting a shot of the knees and elbows as well I went the extra mile and got the hips plus chest (where we found an issue), abdomen, elbows and knees.

I give a good joint supplement to mine currently to manage. I dont limit his exercise to badly I want him to enjoy life when he starts slowing down I will be more careful (which is sadly starting to happen now)


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

The way it walks, and sits something to do with the left side. Didn't ask many questions my wife was very up set so I figured ill see the vet to settle it 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Honestly, that was kind of a jerky thing for the trainer to say. Unless their eyes have the ability to xray (which they obviously don't) there is no reasonable basis for him to have said that to you. I would have been upset too. 

If you have concerns I would talk to your vet.


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

If it is true you could ask about adequan shots. It is for helping arthritis and numerous other things including hip dysplasia. Also I have read great things about Hylasport. 
If there is any extra weight on the dog I would try to make him lean.
Swimming would be an easier exercise if he is in pain and can't walk as easily.
Hope your trainer is wrong! Sending mojo.
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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The trainer may be able to see somthing is "Off" in your dogs' gate but that's about it. "Why" the gate is off takes a little more investigation.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I would be hesitant to give anything major like Adequan shots unless the issues are severe. If its not to bad a good joint supplement is all you need however, wait for the x rays to come back to see if there is even an issue.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

If you are concerned, X-Rays are the way to go. I agree, the trainer is a major jerk to drop a bombshell like that on owners without a scrap of proof. I hope it is not HD. Keep your chin up, even if it is, there seem to be many stories of HD being managed without surgery. 

We're going through some joint issues (maybe???) with Bear. He had trouble getting his feet under him, and at first his gait just didn't look right. So we had him sedated and x-Rayed. His hips turned out magnificent but his knees are inflamed (or so they say). We still haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet. But he limps now.  

Whichever way the wind blows this..... I would have a frank talk with the trainer about minding their own business and/or learning how to use tact. 

Wishing y'all the best of luck. Keep us updated? 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

@Brave, I haven't been following Bear's thread but have they considered panosteitis? Kira has suffered from pano on and off since she was 6 months old (she is almost 18 months now) and it presents very similarly to joint issues. Duralactin is an over the counter anti-inflammatory that came highly recommended to me and has worked wonders for her. She has not had an issue with limping since we started her on it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

No one should say anything based on gait. Their growth plates close at 14 to 16 months. Unfortunately now you will worry until the Xrays are done. Please keep us updated.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Very unprofessional of your trainer to make such a statement. Although it is tough not to panic, take a deep breath and talk to your vet. If your vet feels there is something amiss, have faith that he/she will point you in the right direction.


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## mstout03 (Mar 31, 2013)

Have you looked into possible therapy, like physical therapy? I know that water therapy works really well for golden's.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Try not to borrow trouble and wait for the X-rays. HD, if found, is not great news but not the end of the world either. Many dogs live long happy lives with differing levels of HD. My spaniel has it and is quite the happy girl, albeit with limitations to her exercise. It sounds like your trainer is tactless, but if correct, may have done you a favor by giving you an early heads up. If you know HD is there, you can take better care of your dog. But try not to worry--you have one comment made by one person who is not a vet. Hope you'll come back and let us know what you find out.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The trainer was not mean or out of line for saying something, in fact it would have been very unprofessional to remain silent. The trainer has a responsibility to the DOG! It would be very unfair (and perhaps painfull) to the dog to make it do drills and exercises that it is physically not up to.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> The trainer was not mean or out of line for saying something, in fact it would have been very unprofessional to remain silent. The trainer has a responsibility to the DOG! It would be very unfair (and perhaps painfull) to the dog to make it do drills and exercises that it is physically not up to.


Van Gogh is also in training to be a service dog for the OPs wife--so perhaps even more of a requirement to be a physically "sound" dog. Best of luck with the x-rays and hopefully nothing is there. Did the breeder ever get clearances accomplished on the dam?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Swampcollie said:


> The trainer was not mean or out of line for saying something, in fact it would have been very unprofessional to remain silent. The trainer has a responsibility to the DOG! It would be very unfair (and perhaps painfull) to the dog to make it do drills and exercises that it is physically not up to.


But there is something to be said for having some tact when voicing a concern like that. To say "I'm 95% sure your dog is dysplastic" is a lot different than saying "I'm seeing something off with his gait, maybe you should have the vet look at him and make sure there isn't any joint issue going on." Clearly the trainer doesn't have xray eyes so making a visual diagnosis (even with his 5% "margin" of error) was still jerky, IMO.


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## w00f (Nov 4, 2011)

I'm a big fan of chiropractic care: Doctors, worldwide, certified in animal chiropractic by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association Many dogs are told they have HD when, in fact, it's a back issues. I start my dogs young in caring for their spine, which helps with many degenerative diseases.

Adequan/Cartrophen Vet are most effective when they are started early enough, but the xrays will tell you if this is warranted. I would start any large breed dog on a joint supplement as a preventative. This has never failed me in terms of arthritis once they get to be a senior.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Charliethree said:


> Very unprofessional of your trainer to make such a statement. Although it is tough not to panic, take a deep breath and talk to your vet. If your vet feels there is something amiss, have faith that he/she will point you in the right direction.


I would also use your own judgement here. Vets will only see your dog walking around in the vets office not at home. My first dog a Rottie was examined by a vet who told me he had horrible hips. Did the x rays and sure enough he had horrible hips that needed surgery right away. Sent the xrays off to a specialist and he told me it was mild and would likely never need surgical intervention. 

Lincolns previous vet said his issues were in his knees and his hips were fine. Got him xrayed at another vet and it wasnt his knees like the previous vet thought it was his hips. 

The point is, some times vets misdiagnose/guess. I wonder how many dogs are out there where vets said their joints were fine and not to pursue xrays but really they have some hip issues that the owner wont find until more serious issues develop and they require xrays. 

I xray all mine regardless if I think they have issues or not. Best of luck with the xrays and keep us posted


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

Right hip is narrow the head of the femar is more narrow then other side. Problems will occur in furture that may require surgery.... He needs to be out on dasaquin which is a joint supplement 


Just left the vet.... 


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Does that mean it is HD? 


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Are you going to send the x-rays in for OFA to evaluate? With a 1yr guarantee, it might be worth it to see if the breeder will honor your contract depending on what OFA assesses the hips to be.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

What is the breeder going to do? I wouldn't give Van Gogh back for any reason it's just a shame 


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Does your state have a puppy "Lemon Law"...becuase of his age you may find the breeder has to reimburse the cost of the pup.
Especially if you submit the xrays to OFA for review by three orthopedists...



Jtpllc said:


> What is the breeder going to do? I wouldn't give Van Gogh back for any reason it's just a shame
> 
> 
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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Big hugs. I wish I could say something to make it better. 


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm in talks with the breeder now, but the way I see it--- I bought a champ line "perfect" GR regardless he is our love but the concerns fall deeper then just that.... If known the hip issues, that would have made him not sellable but we can't change time and wouldn't change Van Gogh for anything but I do feel the breeder is responsible 


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Thankfully your trainer was able to see something was off in Van Gogh's gait & now you can start the joint supplements & ensure he receives proper physical activity to maintain muscle tone. Has your vet mentioned the possibility of giving adequan injections in additions to the oral joint supplement. I do both with my senior guy that has a really weak, arthritic backend.

I do hope your breeder steps up to the plate. Pretty crappy to mislead a puppy buyer with notions of a "champion" pedigree and missing clearances throughout. Even worse, he has a repeat breeding on the ground now--I wonder what he's telling new puppy buyers.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

He's not responded to me, I've called and left two voicemails... I'm going to text him and let him know he has 24hours to make right other wise I'm going to educate the public about what he's done.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

In the last 24 hours I have had such bad luck with breeders... Coopers was the worst, I think the next golden I get I'm going to get it from a breeder who's not in the same state as me.... I truly do hate the experiences I have had to deal with. 


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jtpllc said:


> He's not responded to me, I've called and left two voicemails... I'm going to text him and let him know he has 24hours to make right other wise I'm going to educate the public about what he's done.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


What has he done?


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I would certainly make the breeder aware of this, I would also send the x-Rays to OFA for evaluation and allow to post - you would not break any laws by doing that. 
If this is a good breeder he/she will certainly consider not breeding the same dogs again. 
We purchased a dog from a very reputable breeder years ago and after our pup had hip problems I noticed that they never bred the same dogs again. *I never did nor will I ever blame the breeder for it. *
I know it is easy and it hurts because you love Van Gogh so much but if the breeder did all the pre-breeding tests they would be just as hurt as you are about it.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

The breeder wants a second opinion.... It's a x ray what second opinion do you need?

I will wait to hear from him as I sent him a text message earlier to see if he's going to take responsibility.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Jtpllc said:


> The breeder wants a second opinion.... It's a x ray what second opinion do you need?
> 
> I will wait to hear from him as I sent him a text message earlier to see if he's going to take responsibility.
> 
> ...


He might want to see the x-rays. He might want a different vet to look at the x-rays. He might even want them taken over again --- at which point he should pony up the cash to cover new X-rays. 

Perhaps it was poorly positioned. He is trying to make sure there is a bonafide problem. I do not doubt what you have been told, but even I as an owner want second opinions on Bear's x-rays. 


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I think a second opinion is always a good thing, especially with something where positioning is so important, like hips. 


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Jtpllc said:


> In the last 24 hours I have had such bad luck with breeders... Coopers was the worst, I think the next golden I get I'm going to get it from a breeder who's not in the same state as me.... I truly do hate the experiences I have had to deal with.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I wouldn't discount the Florida breeders--you actually have some wonderful options. I would however change your approach in how you're screening who to buy from. I do think Van Gogh's breeder fed you a line about champion lines and the fact that his mom has no verifiable clearances despite his claims on the website to do OFA testing and he's breeding dam's under 2 years is another huge red flag in my book. As for Cooper, the conditions you purchased him were odd & it sounds like you purchased as a second owner from the dog's handler, again, probably not the best (IMO) approach for a novice to get a well-bred golden. Nevertheless, it sounds like you have a great training & vet team set up to help you guys integrate the boys into your home to be the loving companions you sought out.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Jtpllc said:


> The breeder wants a second opinion.... It's a x ray what second opinion do you need?
> 
> I will wait to hear from him as I sent him a text message earlier to see if he's going to take responsibility.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I would definitely send the x-rays into OFA for an expert reading. As positioning is important, I know others have posted x-rays to the forum for a layperson's opinion--you might think about that as well. 

What does your contract state--at the end of the day, that's all your breeder has to honor. Hopefully, it lays out how to "invoke" the health guarantee & more so, doesn't require the return of the pup--which you've already stated is not an option.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

I just got a real bad taste in my mouth, just got a text message from Jason of PineRidgeGoldens and he's trying to sue me for defamation... So for this I will now make it a life long goal to educate others about poor breeders...

This is the same breeder that told me he had all its clearances from its parents but under age breeding was a factor... Same breeder who's lost 2 dogs in 12 months due to choking etc, my personal dog was bit at a early age an Lost half its ear...

I have seen many of PineRidgeGoldens and many of its owners were very very very unhappy with his quality of dog....Jason says he has champ line show dogs but yet hasn't been jn the business for very long... He has a company in Orlando fl trying to hide the negative complaints so he doesn't lose business as he already told me he has lost due to some complaints much like line. 

Jason states he spoke to the doctor today but yet the doctor already told me he can't give info out to anyone but my wife and I. The breeder stated he would be at the vet app but never showed up.

He refuses to take responabity ... I love Van Gogh but i wouldn't buy again from Jason or let anyone buy from him. He's far from a quality breeder.... 


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm so angry right now ill come back later, I gotta cool off. 


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Jtpllc said:


> I just got a real bad taste in my mouth, just got a text message from Jason of PineRidgeGoldens and he's trying to sue me for defamation... So for this I will now make it a life long goal to educate others about poor breeders...
> 
> This is the same breeder that told me he had all its clearances from its parents but under age breeding was a factor... Same breeder who's lost 2 dogs in 12 months due to choking etc, my personal dog was bit at a early age an Lost half its ear...
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about it. I doubt a lawsuit would be profitable, or even winnable....as long as your claims to this point have been accurate.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

So sorry you are going through this. I hope your pup doesn't end up needing surgery or show problems down the road. The dausaquin is a great supplement that many use as a joint supp whether there are issues or not. Important to know too that many dogs that have xrays that show problems never end up having issues.

I'm sorry your breeder isn't being helpful. I think one of the greatest and most beneficial aspects of this forum is that so many great breeders spend their time educating so many of us about what to look for in a breeder...... what clearances are needed and when, how to verify them, why being involved in some venue is important, etc etc etc. However, even the best of breeders can produce a dog with a problem. Making sure those clearances are in order is just the best way to stack the deck in your favor of getting a healthy, long lived dog. Also, a reputable breeder would never turn their back on one of their pups with a problem. There have been instances here where a breeder refunded the purchase price to help with a pup's health issues, and certainly is always there for support and looking out for the best interest of the pup they produced.


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 17, 2013)

I am sorry this happened to you. 
Eta: Do they breed goldendoodles!!!??

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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes they breed golde doodles, that's what chopped van goghs ear off...

Literally his location Is much like a Zoo, and this came from another buyer of his "champ line" English line golden, " Jason has to much going on at his location to be a good breeder"

I've met 2 dogs all with in same age S Van Gogh during training. One in advance class, one in basic class, the basic class is a pure English and when they see Van Gogh they wish they could return there golden... I feel really bad since you can tell there not happy with there golden.. 

At any rate I met a second owner last Saturday at our service training location & there was a golden doodle English cream mix & again the owner of the dog said she wouldn't recommend Jason and she too was angry....




























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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

What do you guys think? 

Since van goghs hip is at question---the breeder feels he has done no wrong and has been very helpful to me in my situation.

I will tell you he's been kind and carrying up to this point. When on vacation in TN he was helpful....

When we first got Van Gogh a year ago, very helpful again.


Now when I mentioned what my trainer mentioned he became very defensive.

He wanted to be at the app but never showed.
I respect what my doctor said an I broke down my billing...

It's roughly 350$ a year for the pills, not including what may come in time and the pain my family and I will have to deal with when Van Goghs conditions worsens.


If Van Gogh cme back as 100% perfect then and only then as he ages if his conditions got bad it would be only on d....

However breeder gave me a sales pitch that his dogs are the best, his dont have hip/joint and or cancer...however we have a issue but now he's saying that isn't a big deal because you aren't breedin him:: however what does tha matter, I bought him under terms that a was 100% healthily and in good shape with joints etc...

I'm so done fighting with him, it's not worth the stress or the time I am wasting I know he has a litter that's for sale so now I must educate others who are interested in his litter to beware 


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Jtpllc said:


> What do you guys think?
> 
> Since van goghs hip is at question---the breeder feels he has done no wrong and has been very helpful to me in my situation.
> 
> ...


Regarding the Dasuquin pills, I found them online (1-800-petmeds.com) for 
$75 for 85 pills (Dasuquin With MSM For Large Dogs Over 60lbs 84ct Bottle #11257) and $113 for 150 pills (Dasuquin With MSM For Large Dogs Over 60lbs 150ct Bottle #10915).

The directions read "Dasuquin with MSM for Large Dogs (60-120 lbs) for the initial 4 to 6 week administration period give 2 chewable tablets daily. The suggested maintenance level is to give 1 chewable tablet daily."

So, for the first 6 weeks (to be conservative) he will use 84 pills. For every week after that, he will only go through 7 pills, so a bottle of 150 pills should last you 21 weeks (150 pills / 7 pills a week = 21.42857142). You will be spending ~$113 every 5 months comes out to ~$226.00 per year, give or take a few weeks (after the initial period). The first year, we can figure three bottles of 150 pills = $339.00. 

Dasuquin has the following (click here for link):
Glucosamine Hydrochloride* 99%900 mg 
Glucosamine Hydrochloride* 99% --- 900 mg
Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) ------ 800 mg
Sodium Chondroitin Sulfate* (Low Molecular Weight) ---- 350 mg
Avocado/ Soybean Unsaponifiables* (ASU) Powder --- 90 mg

When I was researching giving Bear glucosomine supplements (which my vet advocates we use the human form b/c it is cheaper), I found this site helpful. It helps you with dosages. 

I give Bear CVS brand Glucosomine which is $35.00 for 150 pills. I give him 3 pills a day which equals to 1500 mg of Glucosomine. My bottle should last me 50 days. CVS often runs "BUY 1 GET 1 FREE" deals so I often get 300 pills for the same price. Worse Case scenario, I am buying a new bottle every 50 days. (365 days / 50 days = 7.3 bottles a year @ $35.00 a bottle = ~$245.00 a year. A little bit more reasonable, and it has a higher dosage than Dasuquin -- so you can probably even give less and it will last longer. 

As for the rest of your post, what do I think? I think you might have been mislead by the breeder because even with breeders that do all 4 clearances, there is ALWAYS A RISK a puppy will turn up dysplastic. I hear it time and time again on the forum that choosing from a reputable breeder does not give you a GUARENTEE of a problem-free puppy, it simply stacks the deck in the puppy's favor. I would get a second opinion or send the rads to OFA to be graded. If the hips come back bad, go see a specialist. See what your options are. Some of the members have stated (i believe) that a dog with great hips, will act like a dog with bad hips, and a dog with horrible hips may act as if NOTHING is wrong, it is very case-specific. Even if it wasn't his hips, you might have to put him on the supplements for another reason... like what we're having to do with Bear. We have an undiagnosised problem with his knees and rear legs so on the off chance that it helps, he's on joint supplements. Well worth their cost, IMHO. 

I understand that this is a heart-wretching and sickening thing to find out. Trust me! I AM RIGHT THERE WTIH YOU. I've been freaking out for the past 2 weeks over my Bear, running worse case sceanarios in my head like a sick little masochist. But as so many forum members have reminded me, let's not count our chickens before they've hatched. Let's take this one step at a time. 

In regards to the breeder, if this is a reputable breeder (i.e. follows COE to the letter, etc) and they did EVERYTHING to ensure a good breeding, I don't think it's fair to slam them for something that was out of their control. Ya know? I would definetly ask for them to refund some of the purchase price or help with medical care (once you can confirm it is in fact HD and what options are available to you). Read the fine print in the contract to see what it says about if a puppy has a problem. 

If this is NOT a reputable breeder, than you can ask all you want, but I doubt they will hand over any cash. If they breach their contract, you can try to take them to small claims court. I would help educate the public regarding the difference between a reputable and irreputable breeder is. Check with a lawyer, but I worry if you harrass his perspective buyers, that the law will err on his side of the story. So be careful. Try to teach others but do not put yourself in harms way. 

I'm very sorry that this happened to Van Gogh. *hugs*


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Brave said:


> I hear it time and time again on the forum that choosing from a reputable breeder does not give you a GUARENTEE of a problem-free puppy


THIS!

And I am speaking from experience.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

^^^ which means?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jtpllc said:


> ^^^ which means?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Meaning *no breeder* can guarantee you will have a dog free from health problems.

I would also get a second opinion on your fur baby. He is what is important right now.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Meaning *no breeder* can guarantee you will have a dog free from health problems.


But do you agree that a breeder should do everything they can to lessen the chances of health problems by being responsible and accomplishing the bare minimum health clearances as recommended by the GRCA. In the OP's case, the breeder did not do this--is that acceptable to you?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> But do you agree that a breeder should do everything they can to lessen the chances of health problems by being responsible and accomplishing the bare minimum health clearances as recommended by the GRCA. In the OP's case, the breeder did not do this--is that acceptable to you?


Reality sometimes softens the blow. And we all know that IS the reality. That nothing is guaranteed.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Reality sometimes softens the blow. And we all know that IS the reality. That nothing is guaranteed.


Not willing to answer the question?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Not willing to answer the question?


Why turn this into a debate about breeders? You want to get the thread closed? Now would that be fair to the op?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

It is unfortunate that the OP was fooled by a backyard breeder. A reputable breeder will do all the necessary clearances to increase the odds of producing healthy puppies, but will never make unrealistic claims and guarantee that their pups are healthy. The breeder in this case did not do the clearances and promised healthy pups. Just another reason to do your homework and choose a reputable breeder. 


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Why turn this into a debate about breeders? You want to get the thread closed? Now would that be fair to the op?


Nope, the OP in post 47 is seeking the same clarification I am. So since nothing is a guarantee, in your opinion does the breeder share in any responsibility in Van-Gogh's health?


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> Nope, the OP in post 47 is seeking the same clarification I am. So since nothing is a guarantee, in your opinion does the breeder share in any responsibility in Van-Gogh's health?


Responsible for this happening to the dog? No. If there was a contract drawn up with a guarantee. Yes. She should honor the contract.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Nope, the OP in post 47 is seeking the same clarification I am. So since nothing is a guarantee, in your opinion does the breeder share in any responsibility in Van-Gogh's health?


May I expand on my original post? When I say a breeder cannot guarantee your puppy WONT HAVE HEALTH PROBLEMS, if they put a written guarantee in the contract for say x# of years for specific problems (heart murmurs, dysplasia, etc) then a reputable breeder should cover the costs up to the full price of the puppy. 

The breeder should also let every puppy parent from that breeding know and no repeat breedings should be done. OFA should be notified so there are records made public. 

A reputable breeder will take responsibility, but this does not sound like a reputable breeder. The OP can only go after this breeder for as much as the contract stipulates. If there is no written health warranty/guarantee, the OP has no legal grounds to pursue reimbursement. While I understand the OP is upset, I would like to caution you against alienating the breeder before this is resolved. Burned bridges are hard to cross if you ever need his help in the future for whatever reason. 


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

By having clearances for generations, it does show that the breeding stock is less likely to pass on problems. No, it's not a guarantee, but it is definitely stacking the deck in your favor.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> By having clearances for generations, it does show that the breeding stock is less likely to pass on problems. No, it's not a guarantee, but it is definitely stacking the deck in your favor.


This is such an important distinction. Can you 100% guarantee a living being will not ever have a health issue? No. Can you minimize the possibility by conducting health clearances? HECK YES! It is well documented that dogs with pedigrees with generations of hip clearances behind them are less likely to produce HD; same with ED, SAS and hereditary eye issues. 

To suggest that it's all a just a shot in the dark regardless of the clearances in the pedigree is contrary to the actual data.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> This is such an important distinction. Can you 100% guarantee a living being will not ever have a health issue? No. Can you minimize the possibility by conducting health clearances? HECK YES! It is well documented that dogs with pedigrees with generations of hip clearances behind them are less likely to produce HD; same with ED, SAS and hereditary eye issues.
> 
> To suggest that it's all a just a shot in the dark regardless of the clearances in the pedigree is contrary to the actual data.


I hope my posts haven't led anyone to believe that I think it is a shot in the dark. This is such a touchy and emotional subject, especially given that the OP isn't looking to buy, but has a puppy who needs help. 

I mean this in the nicest way possible, what do we aim to achieve by going over what the breeder should have done? The breeder didn't have clearances (from what I understand from this thread - please correct me if I am wrong). The puppy possibly has HD. I thought the OP was looking for support and ideas of how to deal with this situation as it stands in real-time, versus picking the breeder or breeding apart. I agree, the breeder SHOULD have done the clearances. But he didn't and at this point we can only move forward. Ya know? 

Again - i promise i have a nice tone. See... Smiles.    



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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Brave you are right that the OP has to deal with the here and now with a pup with hip issues. However, knowing what IS a reputable breeder and why they do what they do certainly reenforces what he's learning about the breeder he used. And it is an important point for anyone who comes to GRF looking to find a breeder. They can tell you til he** freezes over that they are the best breeder alive but if they are breeding under age dogs with no clearances ( and the buyer needs to verify that), they are not and their dribble is worthless.

Another huge red flag was the fact that the breeder also produces doodles.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

I've been battling with the breeder for the last 24hours. But he tells me that because I only spent $400.00 on Van Gogh I should just be happy hes healthy. He says his hips are "fair" he states that he's done nothing wrong but breed the mother underage, and with doctors opinion that she was a fit dog...However he neglected to state that when we purchased from him. This was only stated a few months back when I came to the forum asking for info on my golden after we received his AKC papers.


LET ME ALSO ADD: Knowing the shape of Van Gogh & how he runs, Jason stated on a recorded conversation last night at 8:44 PM that he wouldnt breed a dog like that with those conditions, he knows people who do but he wouldn't

He knows my Van Gogh has issues, and knew of the issues but declined to disclose them--instead he wanted to make a buck off a first time GR buyer!!! 


That is when I found out his mother does not have clearances. He wanted to negate my trainer saying her eyes aren't good enough to make the determination of good hips or bad hips but yet his doctor is? Funny part of this all is that my doctor couldn't give a opinion until we got a X-Ray...

Jason and I spoke for a hour last night, and he states that he shouldnt have to refund me my money---yet he offered it to me at 1:05 AM on the 4th --then mentioned that the dogs ear 95% bitten but then again there is a chance that maybe it wasnt bitten.... WHAT THE HELL!!!!??? I know when I bought Van Gogh he told me another dog bite his ear....Then when I went to my doctor, doctor asked " Was it ever able to be fixed, how much of the ear was nipped? "

I asked Jason, he responded back and said " it was to late by the time we got to the vet " yet months later he sings a different tune---now I need to get his ears tested to make sure we dont have any major issue here...THIS IS VERY SCARY!!!!

I've spoken to many many buyers from Pine Ridge Goldens & what everyone has in common is, " HE HAS TO MUCH GOING ON " -- " unorganized breeder " 

I am now left in the middle of the situation & I feel cutting communication with the breeder is the only way I will get any peace from this. 

He's selling dogs with bad clearances; He's trying to hire a reputation firm to repair the negative feedback & ironic as it may be, the same feedback on passing bad clearances is my same very complaint---yet he says its not true but what I have here is a backyard breeder.



> *Pine Ridge Goldens Jason Munn Breeding dogs with passing Bad Health Genetics in the off springs to innocent buyers and families*


That is a quote from ripoff reports posted on 8/9/12

I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure no one buys from Jason / Pine Ridge Goldens --I am heart broken that I will have to go through a long process with my dog, and because this could have all been avoided breeding your dog at a proper age with the proper clearances but Jason is simply doing it for the money!!

He told me just last night, he was prepared to give Van Gogh away due to the fact it had "problems" but yet these problems were never disclosed to me when I made the purchase!!!! Now I am left to pick up the pieces and he wants to tell me to suck it up? 

I am going to dedicate my time to making sure nobody else feels like what I feel like, horrible feeling.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I think you are right in just cutting ties to this greeder. He certainly hasn't come thru to help and doesn't seem to have Van Gogh's best interests at heart. You love your dog and will take care of him no matter what. You're learning what NOT to do next time. In the meantime, put that energy into enjoying your dog. As has been said here before, dogs don't run or walk on their xrays. Many dogs who have less than stellar xrays live their whole lives with no problem. Supplements, good nutrition, appropriate exercise and fitness, and not allowing them to carry excess weight can do wonders in helping them live a pain free life.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> I think you are right in just cutting ties to this greeder. He certainly hasn't come thru to help and doesn't seem to have Van Gogh's best interests at heart. You love your dog and will take care of him no matter what. You're learning what NOT to do next time. In the meantime, put that energy into enjoying your dog. As has been said here before, dogs don't run or walk on their xrays. Many dogs who have less than stellar xrays live their whole lives with no problem. Supplements, good nutrition, appropriate exercise and fitness, and not allowing them to carry excess weight can do wonders in helping them live a pain free life.



Any breeder who makes a claim to sue is by no means a good breeder...He's claiming exploitation and is saying its a second degree felony.

I dont agree with what this breeder is doing; hes never going to have to deal with the heart aches of watching my dog as he progresses but from this point forward I'm done with the breeder.

I can not see one positive thing the breeder can do when he comes and posts & I can promise you guys he will be coming.

He's going to say the hips are fine, will say that hes been helpful with advice, but my dog is only worth $400 so you get what you pay for...

400$ or $4000 ITS STILL A DOG....NO BODY SHOULD EVER TELL YOU your dog is less of a dog because you paid less....


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Boy, how this thread has changed along the way.

I would just caution you to step back, take a deep breath and relax for a moment. First the trainer was the bad guy because they made a suggestion that there might be something structurally not quite right. How could he say such a thing?

Now the breeder is a mean, nasty evil person who's doing everything wrong. 

It's time to face some cold hard facts here. The "Health Clearances" and standard of ethical behavior that people here keep trying to push the new people to learn and understand, are *GRCA Guidelines*. Following them is NOT required by the AKC or UKC, nor are they required by law. 
When people shop for a new dog/puppy it is upon them to practice due diligence in learning about the thing they're shopping for. 

The breeder didn't claim to be a GRCA member, nor did he claim to follow the GRCA guidelines. As tough as it is, it isn't fair to try and hold him to a standard that he never claimed to follow. If you looked at all of the golden retriever breeders in the U.S. as a whole, the vast majority of them are *not* GRCA members, so they are not obligated in any way to follow the GRCA's guidelines.

That is why it's important to do your homework before you decide on a breeder and pick a puppy. Do they follow the GRCA's guidelines? Do they offer a warranty? What does the warranty cover? What Does it not cover? What are my responsibilities under the Contract? Every breeder is different, and each contract is different. Make certain you've read it and understand it before you buy.

One last thing, the going rate for a puppy from a breeder who follows the GRCA's Guidelines runs in the range of $1,000 to $2,000. An older "Started Dog/Puppy" will cost more not less. If the price you're looking at is less, they're likely taking some shortcuts along the way. If you see a low price, you really should be asking some questions.

If nothing else, take it as a tough lesson in lifes school of hard knocks. You're not alone, many others have been there too, on more than one occasion.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Unfortunately, I believe Swampcollie is correct. Of course, these issues can occur even if the breeder does all 4 clearances, but its far more likely when you pay $400 for a puppy. There doesn't appear to be a legal remedy here. 


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

If I were you I would focus my energy on my dog. I would get a second opinion from a ortho vet and go from there. You might be surprised of the outcome. Think positive! I know you feel bad for your puppy. I have been in a similar situation with my dog. Not hips, but other health problems. Only difference is I had a wonderful breeder who had *all* clearances done. Just the luck of the draw. It happens. I focused on doing everything I possibly could so my boy wouldn't suffer. I know he had a wonderful life because of that. 

Also unless you have cold hard facts of all your accusations, I would be really careful. He doesn't sound like a very nice person and possibly sue you for slander. Not worth it IMHO.


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

Breeder filed a restraining order today against me, yet there is no danger. Court date is this coming Friday--I wonder what this clown thinks he can do by abusing a system meant to help people who need a restraining order not a shotty breeder trying to cover his bad tracks 


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## Jtpllc (Nov 26, 2012)

I just got done reading the papers, it states on 04/06/2013 he states " dogs were barking, black sedan stopped along the side of our road by our drive way, when I approached the car it sped off"

This is a LIE for many reasons. A he needs a reason to file for a restraining order; so he makes this BS story up.

Few questions I have for Jason-- What is my license plate? What make is my black sedan? -- what color wheels does my sedan have? MOST IMPORTANTLY, DID YOU SEE ME IN THE CAR?

I dont have the breeders address, last time I went to his address was last June to purchase the dog and I was driving a 2009 350Z. How does he know I have a black sedan? What makes him think it was me driving the sedan? Is it because my facebook page I once posted a photo of my dogs in the back of the car and it shows a black sedan.. 

Not to mention I have video surveillance at my home and it will show that my wife was home all day---the black sedan there speaking of will be parked in my drive way...You see see me in the back yard cutting the grass, etc and not have left the home.

I'm going to make this breeder look silly at the courthouse, he is abusing the system like I once mentioned. He lied, and he could easily say he was mistaken but the fact of the matter is. I wasnt at his home, and further more if my memoery is correct, he has a gate at his entrance, I remember that he had a very very long drive way to his house, he lives in the woods---its been over a year but if you look from the road side I will see if I can pull up a google maps to show you cant see from road to house whos at the road, I will then pull a over view of the house and the road you will see its a very long distance to the road.... He states, he walked down the drive way and when "I" approched the car it sped off. 

I am in contact with a attorney now who will be going on my behalf -- he's digging all these holes in injunction...

The FL state law for section 741.30 states 
Petitioner must be a victim of domestic violence or in 
imminent danger of becoming a victim. 
§ 741.30(1)(a). 

Domestic violence includes: assault, aggravated assault, 
battery, aggravated battery, sexual assault, sexual battery, 
stalking, aggravated stalking, kidnapping, false 
imprisonment, or any other criminal offense resulting in 
physical injury or death to one family or household member 
by another family or household member. § 741.28(2). 

1

In determining whether Petitioner has reasonable cause to 
believe he or she is in imminent danger of becoming a victim 
of domestic violence, the court must consider all relevant 
factors alleged in the petition for injunction for protection 
against domestic violence, including, but not limited to: 
- 
T
h
e histor
y between the petitioner and the respondent, 
including threats, harassment, stalking, and physical 
abuse. 
- 
Whether the respondent has attempted to harm the 
petitioner or family members or individuals closely 
associated with the petitioner. 
- 
Whether the respondent has threatened to conceal, 
kidnap, or harm the petitioner’s child or children.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jtpllc said:


> I just got done reading the papers, it states on 04/06/2013 he states " dogs were barking, black sedan stopped along the side of our road by our drive way, when I approached the car it sped off"
> 
> This is a LIE for many reasons. A he needs a reason to file for a restraining order; so he makes this BS story up.
> 
> ...


Just a thought. I would caution what you post on a public website. Just sayin.


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