# There was a time when...



## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

"Just a generation ago if you went near a dog when he was eating and the dog growled, somebody would say, 'Don't go near the dog when he's eating!, what are you crazy?' Now the dog gets euthanized. Back then, dogs were allowed to say, NO. Dogs are not allowed to say no anymore...They can't get freaked out, they can't be afraid, they can never signal 'I'd rather not.' We don't have any kind of nuance with regard to dogs expressing that they are uncomfortable, afraid, angry, or in pain, worried, or upset. If the dog is anything other than completely sunny and goofy every second, he goes from a nice dog to an 'AGGRESSIVE' dog."

-Jean Donaldson-


I pray for the day when dogs will be given back their right to say 'No'. For a 'No' not be so misunderstood, taken as such an affront, and act of defiance, a 'threat' to one's safety, that is not is not what 'No' is about it. 'No' is about the need, the same need that we have in all of us, to feel safe, to be safe in their environment, in their interactions with us and their own, in their homes.
I hold out hope for the day when their 'voices' will be heard. For all that they give to us, the least we can do is 'listen' to them.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I saw this as well. Couldn't agree more.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

A bit of growling is a common and acceptable sound in my house. I've got 3 kids and 2 dogs. It's my audible cue from another room that I've got to go holler at someone. Mostly it's hollering at the kids to respect the dog. Occasionally it's hollering at the dogs to quit bickering amongst themselves.


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## Pilgrim123 (Jul 26, 2014)

Our house has become the retirement home for my son's dog. He is a growler - he certainly lets us all know when enough is enough! We've learned to accept it. For example, we work around the fact that he doesn't like hands anywhere near his sore knee. He's really a sweet old dog - he's just opinionated!


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## jinni1980 (Jul 22, 2016)

Now days people don't want to deal with inconvenience. Everything has to be convenience like getting cordless phone over perfectly working cord phone because it is more covenience. 

If things/items are not working fast or hard to figure it out how to use, people simply turn their back & getting new one.

The problem some people think same way to their pet. They believe having pets means bring extra happiness & more cuddles, joys in their life (of course they do bring joys, laugh, happiness..) but if the pets need extra work because they shows their fear/anxiety or emotions that the owner doesn't want to see, then it is inconvenience for them. They do what they would do with their items/belongings. Some people forgets pets are not items, they are not their trophies that they can just show off.

Pets are our family and friends who will fill our life with unconditional loves & who also need our loves, caring, helps.. They don't come with manual or on & off buttons but they come with beating hearts, feeling, emotion & loves.


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## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

Thank you Charliethree. It is OK for our dogs to say no. It is OK for them to want to just be left alone. It is OK for them to just be allowed to be dogs. At least in our house it is. 

As I society we don't expect our human friends to tolerate even half of what we expect our canine companions to tolerate from us...and, in our society anyway, the cost of a what is perceived as "misbehavior" from a dog (when it is actually often just a dog simply not in the mood to be bothered by a human being) is often a death sentence for the dog. My goodness...if we treated our human friends as we treat our dogs one would be hard pressed to have any human friends left.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

It's definitely a people problem, not a dog problem. My dog is allowed to say no, as well. When he first came home, he growled when my little ones got near him when he was eating. I made them stay away, then retrained him so that he learned that a bowl disappearing = bowl always comes back with more yummy things. Now, my kids can sit right next to him while he eats, and he doesn't care. Having said that, they've had it drilled into their heads that they are never to touch him or his bowl at mealtimes, unless they are presenting the bowl to him for the initial feeding, which they are allowed to do with supervision. I do more kid training than I do dog training, so that there's never a need for my dog to say 'no.' It seems like it would be a no brainer that providing a safe environment for your dog leads to a safe environment for people, as well.

So many people think their dogs come with an automatic understanding of how to interact with humans. They think that kids and dogs naturally get along and they are too ignorant to understand how a dog thinks or why they act as they do. They also don't realize that kids have to be taught how to interact with the dog in a healthy way. It's infuriating, and it's because of all of that that I never let my dog meet dogs I don't know and he only gets to meet the ones I do know with my supervision. Same with my kids. They know they have to ask me if they can even *ask* the leash holder if they can pet their dog. They know better than to run around strange dogs, and a host of other rules. All good rules at any time, but I really feel like dog owners, in general, are just plain clueless.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

https://k9densolutions.com/History_of_Dog_Training.html


If you take a moment to have a look at the history of dog training, it is not hard to figure out when dogs 'lost' their 'voice' - their right to choose, and to be 'heard'.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Good read!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

What can happen when we 'listen' to them, give them back their 'voices', help them learn to make good 'choices' and reward them for it. 

Joseph, our lab mix, got himself a real prize today, a full pound of Rollover, (real meat - a high value treat that I give all my dogs) plastic wrap still on it, off of the counter, (quite by accident, an inadvertent 'management fail' on my part). He took it into his crate, when I walked into the room all I could see of him was his butt in the doorway of the crate, he had the Rollover right at the back. Resisting the urge to touch him, and perhaps startle him, I simply said in a calm voice 'Come on, Joseph - out.' (a cue that I have never used before.) He backed out of the crate, moved off to the side, and sat there while I crawled into the crate and retrieved the chunk of meat. He had eaten a some of it, could have stayed where he was and eaten the whole thing, but he chose to move away from it, and got a whole lot more in reward, for making such a tough choice. 

Joseph came to me, scared of people, scared of being abused, any hint of (perceived) 'danger' would send him running to hide in his crate. I worked with him, helped him understand that I would 'listen' to him, respecting his need for space, rewarding him for behaviors I wanted him to repeat. Helped him learn to 'learn', learn that it was okay to make mistakes, and to 'try again', allowed him to make 'choices', decide for himself, rewarded those 'good' choices.
'Who' I share my life with now, is an amazing 'best friend' who makes the most amazing choices.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

I just love ❤ hearing Joseph updates  


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

A little food for thought on this which I was hesitant to do since this is in the adopted/rescued section and you assume geared towards a different crowd than the following technically applies to. However, since this goes in the forum and is viewed by new dog owners who are beginning to learn what to expect as "normal" in a golden retriever and how to understand, how to prevent, how to handle.... 

Our first two goldens growled at us. They resource guarded. They snapped. They clenched down if they got "precious items" in their mouths and snarfed it down to avoid having them be taken away. They snatched and ran and put themselves in places where they could growl and intimidate anyone reaching in to fetch what they had. The #2 boy had 2 bites requiring stitches before he turned two. Those bites did not include all the other occasions that he fully earned his "piranha" nickname. The first boy only had one bite on his record, which occurred in the last week of his life when he likely was in complete misery from pain. But that first boy also was a threatening and mean old dog at heart from early on with all the snarling, snapping at hands, glaring eyes, turfing, etc. 

What those first two dogs taught us as dog owners was three things... 

1. Choose better breeders for puppies. The more focus a breeder puts on temperament, the better a puppy you will have. Ideally, you want a dog who goes through his entire life of 12-13 years and never ever growls at his owner, never does the "mean eyes", and is soft and sweet inside and out. This is what you expect for the breed. And generally, is the norm for most dogs from good breeders and not the exception. I am serious. There's people out there who like myself have dogs that never growl and are soft inside and out. This is what golden retrievers should be. The kind of aggressive behaviors that easily and readily come to the surface sometimes are due to the dog's wiring. My family calls it the "red head" genes, because both red heads we had ended up with certain temperament issues and the blondies have all been gentle and sweet. I do believe the temperament had nothing to do with hair color and everything to do with what behavior traits the dogs had been bred specifically for and/or if that had been on the breeder's list of important stuff.

2. Learn from your mistakes. People do not realize how much the growling and turfing behaviors are learned behaviors from the dogs. They learn that growling makes their owners let go and back off. Same thing with snapping behaviors. The mistake is rooted in behaviors that owners do with puppies.


For example: When people pick up puppies and want to hug them like teddy bears tightly and not letting go until the pup struggles/flails/growls. The instant the owner lets go, the pup learns what he has to do in order to get the owner to let go. It would be better for the owner to teach the puppy that the accepted communication for being let go is the first wriggle. Or even letting go of the pup before he even starts to struggle. Keep the hugs gentle and short. It teaches the pup that your arms are not a prison.


Another example where people inadvertently teach a puppy how to growl and resource - when you are constantly snatching things from the pup and basically making your hands into negative portions of your body which pinch mouths and snatch things away, sometimes accompanied with whining or scolding by the owner. If you do this to the point where the pup is exhibiting defensive behaviors to make you back off (growling, glaring, running and hiding, snapping at hands) - the pup is learning what works to get his way. 


It would be better if right from the start you are always rewarding your pup for bringing things to you and "showing" you what he has. Always trading if needed, but sometimes if the item in the pup's mouth is harmless - there's no reason to be snatching the item away. Keeping your hands soft and rewarding prevents many of the resource guarding behaviors which some pups learn from their owners. 


3. You learn to live with the dog you have - even when that dog is not perfect. A lot of people who have their first dogs ever are going to make a lot of mistakes. They are going to mess up those dogs in one way or another. My belief is each dog that comes in our lives makes us better owners by the time the next puppy comes around. The times when this doesn't always work out that way - usually is when people just lost a 13 year old dog and are shell-shocked by the next puppy, having forgotten what life is like with a young and active dog. A lot of us get really spoiled by the seniors who are all angels - even the ones who were complete jerks as puppies. 


W/regards to the conversation or topic here, the reason why we are seeing more issues with aggression today and concerns about it.... might have something to do with the training trends today. I do believe that some training styles are geared towards submissive handling of submissive (soft) dogs. You have people who are constantly appeasing and squeaky voice begging their dogs to behave and coming across as a yipping little dog that a more dominant (hard) dog can blow off or manage. The opposite end is where people have been told to be more forceful and dominant with their dogs regardless of what the situation requires, and it produces fear aggression type responses to pressure.


What is missing in dog training is simple common sense reading of dogs, give and take, firmness but kindness, balance of corrections and rewards. Balanced and knowledgeable training. <= That's something you aren't going to get from somebody who has been hired by a pet store to run a basic obedience tricks class geared towards getting people to buy training products sold in the store. 


Again, growling and snarling and snapping and other stuff like that is normal dog communication, but it is of a degree that I don't think is acceptable for this breed, especially when you are talking about the dog communicating with his owners. In many cases, that's a dog who has learned that growling WORKS so he does it sooner and quicker than the last time. 

Again, personally speaking I would be STUNNED if my dogs growled at me or any other person. It is not in their wiring and they have never been handled in such a way as to make it necessary for them to learn those behaviors. 

When I picked up my Jacks from his breeder, they told me something that I will never forget. They basically told me that he is a clean slate. That he knows no fear. And this is truly the case when you bring a puppy home. The next 6 weeks are those where the pup is a complete sponge and is constantly learning what he can do and what it takes to be a dog. With the softer and sweeter dogs, I believe that the worst resource guarding you can expect from them is "snatch, run, snarf it down". And even that is something you can avoid with management and thoughtful handling. 

Anybody who tells you that growling is "OK" and so on, it generally is something to either prevent a lot of stress or guilt for you... or they are trying to talk you into adopting a dog who has learned all of these behaviors from his prior home and it caused him to be surrendered. Those dogs are absolutely adoptable and they can be the best dogs you've ever owned. But please don't assume that's something that is OK or normal to expect with this breed. It disguises or makes excuses for those cases where the dogs do absolutely have temperament problems. And then it disguises and makes excuses for the human behaviors which produced these problems... and it's something which prevents those people who made those mistakes from learning from them and not messing up the next dog.


There's people out there who are so completely convinced that what they see most common in dogs is "normal" that their minds would be blown by the following true statements:


1. Your dogs should be able to eat side by side without any resource guarding or quarreling. Even intact dogs. Even dogs of the same sex who are also intact. Similarly, you should be able to reach in your dog's bowls, move their bowls, sit next to your dogs and be in their space without them tensing up or reacting negatively.


2. You should be able to pry open your dog's mouth and take anything out without your dog clamping down or biting you. By the same token, even if your dog has a meat bone or piece of meat being snarfed down their throat, you should be able to reach in and remove that without getting bitten.


3. Your dog should be able to go through his entire life without ever once showing his teeth at human being or ever once growling at a human being. 


4. You should be able to have a dog who knows how to communicate with you when he wants or needs something - without growling or snarling. 


And I'm sure there's more, but those are right off the top of my head. 


Really truly, dog training is important for turning that spongy puppy into the dog of your dreams. But understanding dogs and listening and paying attention are a huge part of dog training. It isn't all telling the dog to do something and getting results. A lot of dog training is learning how to read situations, read your dogs, read other dogs. You don't have to be big and loud in order to be an alpha. You don't have to be with this breed. Being firm and fair will go a long way. 


I've read posts with people making the same mistakes that we made with our first dog - including every member of the family and strangers pinning our dog to train him to accept a submissive role or some such nonsense. And I've read posts from people who very likely are not controlling their kids who are harassing the dogs. And I've also read way too many posts from people who get mixed up about what bite inhibition and soft mouths are with this breed. 


A lot of people read the breed standard and assume that any purebred golden from any source will match that breed standard. I wish that were the case, but it isn't always so. There's a lot of nature and nurture which makes or breaks the dogs.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Charliethree, thank you again for sharing your stories and your expertise for those of us who have learned as we go and don't have your expertise or experience. When I read your success stories it makes me proud for your crew and helps me when we run into bumps along the way. The resources and references you have shared have been invaluable to me and for that I am appreciative.

Give Joseph an extra hug today for remarkable progress!


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## jinni1980 (Jul 22, 2016)

I think the point of this topic is not about we must let dog growls. 

It is about when the dog growls, we should listen/understand/recognise his fear or uncomfortable feeling in that situation instead of label them straight away as "aggresive dog/broken dog". 
"Oh you little s$#@! You growled, bad dog! Agrresive dog!!" is not helping anything & anyone. 

We can help/train dogs who growls/resource guarding/fearful reactive when we actually listen what they are trying to tell us & understand why they are showing that respondings. 
Some people only focus on "He/she GROWLED" not WHY he/she reacted that way or what caused them feel like that way. Without recoginsing WHY, it is hard to help them overcome their fear/reactive behaviour/resource guarding whatever seems problems. 

Has my golden ever growled?! Yes. He loves going under water, sometimes he brings a big rock from under water which he spends lots of efforts to do it (going under water & digging sand & carrying out of water..) That kind of big rock, he likes to keep for himself from others. A Great Dane came to close to Jon when he was dragging the rock just out of water, Jon growled to that dog. It was his first time to growl to any dogs or anyone. I straight went to next Jon & blocked the Great Dane who was getting close to Jon. I could do this because I listened Jon's NO respond for the situation. I understood why he growled, why he didn't feel ok with that situation. 
Since I recoginsed his No situation & understood his NO respond for that situation, I was able to help him. Now if he brings any big rocks (whatever he thinks he would like to keep or he feels it is very valuable for him because he spend lots of efforts & energy for it) from under water, he will drop between my feet, nudge it & look at me, then I put them in my bag, we brings them home, put them in his rock collection box. He knows I understand that he is uncomfortable with other dogs around HIS rocks & he trusts me to keep them safe for him. 
If I only focused on he growled other dog instead of WHY he growled, I wouldn't have been able to help him because I wouldn't know what is wrong.. 

If dogs never growl, never show any NO responds.. yes that is great, what a nice, friendly awesome doggy. 
But I believe if the dog says NO & we truly listen, we will learn that his NO responding actually gives us an opportunity to understand him better & help him. 

I mean, I teach my child "anger/sadness" are normal feelings & it is okay to have that feelings but we need to learn how to express that feelings in right ways. So I teach her few skills how to deal with anger/sadness when I can see she feels them in some situation. If I don't allow her to have that feelings, I won't be able to teach her how to deal with that emotion better way because I won't know when to help or what to help. 

It's just my humble opinion...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Your dog warned the great dane off and the great dane was obviously a nice enough dog to back off of a smaller dog and not proceed any further. 

If the great dane were not a nice dog though, it might have proceeded to the next thing - which may have included both dogs mixing it up over something as stupid as a rock. 

And it would have happened very fast. They would have been going at each other before you could get right in the middle.

Dog communication that you read off of should not begin with the growl. 

It begins with the posturing. Sometimes that's knowing your dog and interceding when you see the other dog charging up and see your dog's ears go back, eyes get big, and hackles go up. 

A friend of mine and I had a confab about dogs - and particularly dogs who always seem to be getting dumped on by other dogs when they are perfectly nice dogs themselves. 

The friend would walk her dog into obedience trials and have all these dogs charging or reacting negatively to her dog.

She finally asked her friends what was going on. And they told her it was the way her dog walked in. He'd have his tail up and game face on and basically challenging all the dogs as he came in. She never realized, because she knew her dog to be "sound" and friendly.  

You don't have to wait until your dog is growling at other dogs to know what's going on. There's a lot of communication beforehand.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Charliethree has very extensive experience and training working with fearful dogs. She is well read and has worked with behaviorist who understand how to work "with" dogs that may have some fears. Empathy and understanding a dog and the "why" are so important to earning trust. If a dog trusts you and wants to work with you, that is what we hope for. I certainly hope that this thread is not going to turn towards "only get dogs with good breeding " because of a different opinion. This is the rescue forum and is to help folks understand how to work with truly wonderful dogs to reach their full potential.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

jennretz said:


> Charliethree has very extensive experience and training working with fearful dogs. She is well read and has worked with behaviorist who understand how to work "with" dogs that may have some fears. Empathy and understanding a dog and the "why" are so important to earning trust. If a dog trusts you and wants to work with you, that is what we hope for. I certainly hope that this thread is not going to turn towards "only get dogs with good breeding " because of a different opinion. This is the rescue forum and is to help folks understand how to work with truly wonderful dogs to reach their full potential.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Penny is my first dog from a breeder. Since joining this forum apparently not the best breeder. (Not horrible though). I've also had 2 rescues and what was likely a puppy mill pup from a pet store. 
My Malamute we picked up at the pound. Our first dog as adults. He was a PITA!! He growled, nipped, was dog agressive and wanted things run his way. Took us 4 years to get him to settle down. Eventually we were able to take him anywhere. Had to keep him in control at all times but he was a fantastic dog. (Once we all were able to live on the same page). You can't replace his kind of personality. My husky was a sweetie but had her issues too. 
Now we have Penny (golden) and Ted our little 20lb mutt. The are both young (a month apart in age) and have their issues we need to work through. I really believe that issues can force you to have to put in a lot more effort into a dog and the rewards because of it can be huge. The relationship you end up developing is strong because you are forced to really listen and work with the issues. 
The whole clean slate 8 week old puppy is great. I can certainly see and appreciate the benefits but nothing can replace the blood sweat and tears of molding imperfect dogs into lifelong companions.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

jennretz said:


> I certainly hope that this thread is not going to turn towards "only get dogs with good breeding " because of a different opinion. This is the rescue forum and is to help folks understand how to work with truly wonderful dogs to reach their full potential.


And you completely misunderstood my comments or reason for posting them.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

Megora said:


> And you completely misunderstood my comments or reason for posting them.


You are correct, it is unclear to me what your reason for posting your comments is/are. I believe you have a different point of view on what is appropriate for training a dog and that you would prefer to have a clean slate to work with. I believe you do not believe in positive reinforcement only training. I believe you do not think it is appropriate for a dog to growl. And I respectfully say that I have a different point of view.

What I would like to see in the rescue forum is a resource of shared thoughts and articles that support acclimating a rescue dog into a new home. I would like to see folks recognize that building trust with a rescue dog sets a sound foundation to build from. I would like to build/support a knowledge base that understands a dog may be scared when they join your home and they express that fear in a way that we don't like (i.e., growl) and that it's ok - we have their back and will help them to feel safe. Positive reinforcement may take longer, but when you find a dog that chooses to stop doing an action (that they really want to do) it is a reason to celebrate!

Charliethree - I apologize for taking your thread off track.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

No problem. I think we all need to understand that any dog can become fearful, regardless of breeding or background, it is the rehomed dogs who often experiences fear causing events, uprooted from all they know, bad or good, it is familiar to them, the unfamiliar (new people, new places, new situations) is reason enough for them become anxious or afraid. It is important that we respect that their fears are very real to them, and behave appropriately when they are 'speaking' to us.

https://www.thespruce.com/symptoms-of-fear-in-dogs-1117890


https://iheartdogs.com/6-signs-your-dog-is-living-with-fear/

Punishing a fearful dog, 'correcting' what is perceived as inappropriate behavior, regardless whether it is showing stress signals, or giving the 'audible' growl, that most understand as a request for space, distance, a need for space, may stop the behavior temporarily, but does nothing to resolve the underlying reason for the fear. Increasing the likelihood that the next time the dog will escalate it's attempts to keep itself safe. Dogs don't snap and bite because they 'want to', they are programmed for conflict avoidance, it is a last ditch effort to get the offender to move away. 

Bottom line, we expect them to learn from us, to understand without hesitation what we want from them, to treat us with kindness and respect, to 'accept' whatever we dish out to them, do as 'we say', the least we can do is meet them half way - treat them with kindness and compassion, learn about who they are, how they speak, respect what they have to say, and above all honor their request, their need to feel safe, and be safe. 

Every dog deserves to be treated with compassion, empathy and respect, to live their lives with dignity, - free of fear of emotional and physical discomfort and pain, to be allowed to 'speak', to be understood, and to be listened to.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Frankly, I didn't even notice it was the rescue thread when I posted. I took the original post to include all dogs, regardless of whether they are rescues or come from a reputable breeder as a puppy. Even with a "clean slate," there will be different personalities and some of those pups will growl for various reasons, as mine did. I suspect he was close to the bottom of the litter pecking order, given his behaviors. Any dog should be allowed to say no. I think if that was the case, if people understood more about why their pup is growling and respect that, work with it, work on the root cause to make the pup feel safe and confident, there would be fewer rescues due to behavioral issues.

I think that may have been part of Megora's point. The other was simply her perspective on how new puppy buyers can lessen their chances of being in a situation where they'd have a problem with their dog and end up having to give it back or to a rescue group. I don't think that a preference for a "clean slate" has anything to do with it, though that may just be the way I read the post.

The entire thread simply goes back to the point that the majority of people are completely clueless when it comes to reading dog body language. They don't see things coming before they happen. They don't see that the "friendly" dog being walked nearby isn't displaying friendly body language, then they wonder why it attacked their dog. They can't correct a behavior in the moment that the dog THINKS about doing something, and BEFORE he does it, because they don't even KNOW the dog is going to act. They don't understand why their dog is growling, punishing and correcting behavior that shouldn't be, then wonder why they have a dog that bites or is fearful or doesn't behave "as expected." I think I mentioned this in some other thread, but sometimes you only have a split second to see, process, and react appropriately to a dog's behavior. Most people can't do that. The nicest of puppies can turn into a mess when the person that is supposed to be guiding him is incapable of doing so in the appropriate manner. 

I made a dog follow me home when I was a little kid. He was an abused GSD mix, and we kept him because no one claimed him and my dad didn't have the heart to take him to the shelter. He was wormy and very undernourished. I'm pretty sure his ribs had been broken (probably kicked) and untreated because he was always sensitive and yelped if you rubbed his left side too hard. He was allowed to say no, finally, with us. We respected that he didn't like to be touched on his ribs. He was very protective, and nipped someone that was chasing me once. Lesson learned. We never put him in a position for that to happen again. The point here is that regardless of whether it's a rescue or a puppy, understanding a dog's worldview goes a long way in helping them to become secure, happy, and well-adjusted -- or at least better adjusted. Some scars never entirely disappear.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I've re-read this entire thread twice and I'm honestly surprised at the way Megora's comments are being treated. I still can't figure out what has offended a few of you. The way it appears is that if she's not in lock step she's not welcome in the discussion. 

She explained pretty clearly why she commented here. I'm interested in most of the boards on this forum and don't relegate myself to only certain sections, often I just look at the active thread board to see what I've missed. It's part of how I learn new things here. Chances are other people read this thread the same way I did and didn't automatically assume that this discussion only pertained to rescue dogs since growling is a normal behavior for all dogs. This is an issue for everyone to learn about.

Megora spent a lot of time explaining her history with family dogs and things that went wrong and how she learned from them. I don't understand why her viewpoint is being treated as unworthy of being shared simply because she is giving an expanded opinion on a subject where she agrees with many, if not all of the ideas being sold here. I hope we can have discussions here without having to be in total agreement on every single detail.



Megora said:


> ...*.since this goes in the forum and is viewed by new dog owners who are beginning to learn what to expect as "normal" in a golden retriever and how to understand, how to prevent, how to handle.*...
> 
> Our first two goldens growled at us. They resource guarded. They snapped. They clenched down if they got "precious items" in their mouths and snarfed it down to avoid having them be taken away. They snatched and ran and put themselves in places where they could growl and intimidate anyone reaching in to fetch what they had. The #2 boy had 2 bites requiring stitches before he turned two. Those bites did not include all the other occasions that he fully earned his "piranha" nickname. The first boy only had one bite on his record, which occurred in the last week of his life when he likely was in complete misery from pain. But that first boy also was a threatening and mean old dog at heart from early on with all the snarling, snapping at hands, glaring eyes, turfing, etc.
> 
> ...


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

'Dogs who come to the table with fear or anxiety issues can still learn new behaviors. Their ability to do so is not prevented by a defect in their brain. It is compromised because they are scared or anxious. Even the most fearful among them will respond to positive reinforcement.' 

Debbie Jacobs

A good read, that can lead to a better understanding.

http://www.nicolewilde.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/BARKfeararticle.pdf


Learn to read your dog's body language, to understand what your dog is 'saying' and how to respond appropriately to what he is 'telling' you.


Calming Signals - The Art of Survival

The book: On Talking Terms with Dogs by Turid Rugaas, is a good resource to learn the basics.

The book: The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell, gives a wonderful insight into how our behavior impacts their behavior.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I feel what has been lost in translation of dog behavior is 'why' dogs behave 'that' way. Defensive or 'aggressive' (lip curling, teeth baring, growling and snapping) displays are _fear _based behaviors, used by dogs in the dog world to keep themselves safe, 'create space', make the 'threat' go away. Our dogs don't speak our language, they speak in 'dog', the only language they know how speak, to us, and to those of their own kind. It is when we take those displays as a 'challenge' to our 'authority', ignore their request for space, dismiss their right to request space in order to avoid physical confrontation with us that things go down the wrong path. Dogs by nature go to great lengths to avoid physical confrontations and risk of injury, calming signals, (are often missed or ignored by people) 'warning' signals,(the lip lift, the growl, air snap) physical displays are the ones humans heed most quickly, that is why they have the complex communication skills that they do.

...'If you do this to the point where the pup is exhibiting defensive behaviors to make you back off (growling, glaring, running and hiding, snapping at hands) - the pup is learning what works to get his way. '

If a dog is displaying _defensive _behaviors, he is doing so to _protect _himself from what he perceives as a 'threat' to his safety and well-being, he has learned from experience that the person (or dog) is unpredictable, and potentially 'dangerous' to him. He is trying diffuse the situation, create space, and keep himself safe, to him his survival 'depends' on it. It is about fear, it is about 'survival', it is not about trying to 'manipulate' or have their 'own way'.

We need to keep in mind that our dogs would not be acting 'aggressively' or defensively IF we did not behave in ways that cause them to feel the need to do so.



There was a time when "dogs were allowed to say, NO. Dogs are not allowed to say no anymore...They can't get freaked out, they can't be afraid, they can never signal 'I'd rather not.' We don't have any kind of nuance with regard to dogs expressing that they are uncomfortable, afraid, angry, or in pain, worried, or upset." (Patricia McConnell) 

A sad reality for far too many dogs.


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## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

I have a rescue, Jack, who came to me following some pretty horrific abuse. He has, over 3 years, learned that in our home hands do not hit or harm and, usually, contain something good. That having been said because of his history we have learned that Jack wants to be approached slowly. He visibly tenses and is fearful when approached too rapidly. Because of this we have learned to respect his need for a slow and gentle approach. We have learned to respect his needs. To me it is no different than respecting a friend's boundaries. I have a friend who absolutely detests being hugged. Unfortunately I am something of a hugger. I have learned over the years not to do this with her. I respect her boundaries. It is simply amazing to me that we are willing to accept boundaries set by humans but refuse to accept, and in many cases even acknowledge, the boundaries set by our dogs. Perhaps because we just don't bother to tune in and "listen" to what our dogs are saying.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I'd argue that people aren't particularly good at respecting the boundaries of other people.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

usually lurking said:


> I'd argue that people aren't particularly good at respecting the boundaries of other people.




Unfortunately, this is probably true as well. I still want to aspire to though,


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Something we need to keep in mind when out with our dogs, is how the situation, location, environment is impacting them. Though there are many ways we can work to help them, if need be, we need to help them learn to enjoy a 'swim' in the shallow end of the pool of life, before we can expect them to 'swim' in the deep end. 

https://eileenanddogs.com/2015/09/16/flooding-dog-training/


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

'A dog doesn't bite or shut down because of who they are but because of what is happening around and to them.' - Debbie Jacobs

Something we need to keep in mind when interacting with any dog. If we are 'listening' to them, understanding that what they are 'saying' is about the mistakes we are making, about the situation we have put them in, we can avoid pushing them to the point where they feel they have no choice, but to physically defend themselves or simply 'give up' and try to 'hide' from the world.


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