# Training with no treats.....



## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

So Jona just finished puppy classes which lasted only 4 weeks (everyone passses puppy classes). It's amazing how much change you will see in those 4 weeks. There was a husky there that was very timid the first day; he would not play with any puppy or would not leave his owners side and he would just have other puppies munching on his ears and he would just sit there and ocasionally yelp. At the end he was more active with other puppies and was even playing. As far as Jona, he went in there the 1st day starting fights with every pup and mounting and humping; last week he got into a fight or 2 and did not hump.


Anyways the next class is the beginner obedience for dogs 4 months +. The trainer told me that this class there was no puppy play at all allowed and no treats. This is a pass or fail class. The thing that worries me is he will listen to me when he knows I have a treat in my hand but will only listen 25% of the time without one. Is it realistic for a puppy to obey a command first try without a treat?

I guess by the time the class ends he will be 6 months but still

I have a month before classes start to begin working with him.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Are there any other training schools in or near your area that you could check out? 

Sounds like it will be an old-school, potential choke-and-jerk class.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I personally would find a new class.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

The puppy classes were good there and it all seemed fine and it's even one of the most popular training facilities in our area but if I am not mistaken she also told me that in the next class they use a choke collar, which is what quizini said.

When I first started doing research for puppy classes I didnt find many good trainers around here, they were all 45 mins + and Jona is not a big fan of the car yet so that would just be killing him.

One of the trainers there owns a German Shepherd and another owns a Doberman which they board there while they are working. The dog are very obedient and they train police dogs there too like I said I jsut dont think I would pass without treats lol atleast not at such a young age


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Is there any way you can observe one of these classes before signing up. I have a feeling Stephanie is correct in her deduction. And a German Shepard and a Doberman are MUCH different than a Golden. I truly think you would be BETTER off not taking this class even if it means no class foor a while till a more suitable trainer can be found. I am not a strictly positive trainer, but I do believe in treats, toys and other rewards.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

It's funny all the puppies in my class were what you can call "tough" breeds; I dont mean to stereotype. There were 3 german shepherds, 1 rottweiler, and 1 husky.

I saw A LOT of german shepherds getting trained there, maybe this is like a german shepherd place. Anyways there was this one guy who trains dogs and seemed very good but only had classes on the days that I would work :doh:

I'll try seeing what I can find


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## 58loosy (Apr 18, 2010)

That is not right, Lucy is in the intermediate class at Petsmart, had finished beginning, she is 11mos. they use treats and praise and also play with the other dogs in class. The socialization is so important, even at home I do treats while working with her usually cheerios. She will be going into advanced soon, it is getting ready for her cgc. And another thing should not be using choke chains, so behind thetimes. I use a harness and she walks great, if your dog pulls their is a gentle leader and gentle walker. Good luck with training.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

What city are you in? Maybe we can help you research some training places...


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Enzos_Mom said:


> What city are you in? Maybe we can help you research some training places...


 
Gurnee, Illinois

This is the guy that I really like but does training on my work days

http://www.k9tac.com/


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've stated many times that I am not a fan of "pure positive" training, but the sound of this class doesn't sound any better. I tend to agree with others and think you're likely better off waiting.

I will add, if he will only do a command if he knows you have a treat, then you are bribing him with that treat. You do want to work towards having the treat being a reward, not a bribe. Hide the treats in your pocket or put them up on the counter, and then reward when he complies. If you bring out a treat when he doesn't comply the first time, he will quickly learn that ignoring you gets the treats out.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

I'd be looking for a different facility or at least to observe the class before enrolling. Granted there are other positive methods of rewards besides treats, but to forbid treats all together makes me worry as most people find it easier to train with treats.

My 8 year old still gets treats or toys while learning new behaviors and for random reinforcement of learned behavior.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Observing a class would be good so you know for sure if you want in or not. If I couldn't use treats at all, personally I would pass. And I'm the kind of person that tries to minimize the use of food when possible...(but still keep things positive and fun)

As far as 'he won't do anything unless I have a treat in my hand'--have they taught you how to phase out visible food? Basically you have to make them think you have food in the lure hand, and when they execute the command you still reward but the food maybe comes from your other hand or a pocket so they learn the reward can come from anywhere. They don't need to see it, to get it.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

According to K9 Training Association of Chicago they may offer private lessons. If the issue is you can not go on Saturdays due to work maybe you can do some privates with them till you are able to enter one of there more advanced classes they have in the evenings.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

Maybe I worded myself wrong. Well I guess sometimes he'll see me reach for the box of milkbones but usually I will tell him to sit and he will sit and I'll give him the treat, and after I give him the treat he thinks well I guess he knows that I have more in my pocket and will obey and follow me because he now knows that we are in training mode and he will get a treat. I dont always give him a treat after every command, sometimes I will just praise but too much praising and he'll walk away because there are no more treats. He does commands also when we are not in training mode but it might take me a couple of times before he actually does it. Like when we are going to walk outside I will have him sit before I open the door and he will after like the 2nd time. I'm just rambling now.

As far as the private sessions go, I wouldnt mind that, but private training session prices are usually sky high plus I want him to get socialized.

Hmmm what to doo

ETA: What I might do, because I really like that K9 Assoc of Chicago one I might see if someone is willing to switch saturday with me for 8 weeks. I'll wait though because he hasnt posted classes in August yet and Jona wont be 4 months until Aug 6th


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## JessiBessi93 (Jun 11, 2010)

There is a Petsmart in your area, maybe you could go there and observe a class and see how much they run? I think the Petsmart classes sound good according to what 58Loosy described.


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## GoldenJona (Apr 3, 2010)

JessiBessi93 said:


> There is a Petsmart in your area, maybe you could go there and observe a class and see how much they run? I think the Petsmart classes sound good according to what 58Loosy described.


Don't get me wrong I'm sure Petsmart has some good trainers out there but in my petsmart I dont think they are all that great. I went in one day and asked the lady about the trainers experience and credentials and she said "they passed the Petsmart training course" I dont think that says much. Maybe Petsmart would be a last resort for me


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

GoldenJona said:


> Maybe I worded myself wrong. Well I guess sometimes he'll see me reach for the box of milkbones but usually I will tell him to sit and he will sit and I'll give him the treat, and after I give him the treat he thinks well I guess he knows that I have more in my pocket and will obey and follow me because he now knows that we are in training mode and he will get a treat. I dont always give him a treat after every command, sometimes I will just praise but too much praising and he'll walk away because there are no more treats. He does commands also when we are not in training mode but it might take me a couple of times before he actually does it. Like when we are going to walk outside I will have him sit before I open the door and he will after like the 2nd time. I'm just rambling now.
> 
> As far as the private sessions go, I wouldnt mind that, but private training session prices are usually sky high plus I want him to get socialized.
> 
> ...


Hmmm. Everyone will have differing opinions on this. Because of his age, I would tend to go back to rewarding him more often for now. Now IMO, though, there comes a time when you have done enough teaching and now you have to enforce the essentials. If he chooses not to do a command (i.e. sit) that he knows (and yes, he must know it very well, be very practiced with it in a variety of setting) that is when I will give a correction to get the dog to sit. You have to teach the correction too though, don't expect the dog to know that collar pop = sit. Teach him that pulling up on the leash = sit by pairing it with a lure so when you need it, you have it.

EDIT: The goal is that they do something the first time asked. You don't want to turn 'Sit' into 'sit-sit' or worse 'sit sit sit sit sit sit----good dog!' If you aren't getting it the first time, figure out why and make a plan!


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

At 4 months old, I wouldn't even begin to expect a puppy to understand what you want just based on your telling him/her. Treats at that age help them learn what you expect of them. They have a bit of ADD at that age. Heck, I have no problem still using treats with my 9 1/2 year old, my 5 year old and my 3 1/2 year old. I don't keep them on hand 24/7, but I still use them. They are all pretty darn well trained and can be off-leash in any safe off-leash areas, like up at the lake.


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## 58loosy (Apr 18, 2010)

The instructor at our petsmart is great,very knowledgeable, I do know alot about training my friend is a personal trainer, the instructor teaches postive reinforcement such as my friend. I did classes for the socialization and the bonding I get from taking her, also the classes are small and she always goes over the hour. Will go over any problems you might have. You should watch one of the classes that is going on right now. I'm sure not all trainers our the same.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Some box store (petsmart/petco/etc) trainers are super experienced ...but for the most part...they aren't. A serious misconception in many training facilities is that new instructors should be helping with/running basic training classes. And that's so NOT good. It's best to have very experienced instructors so that students and dogs are learning as fast as possible AND so you have experienced eyes watching for potential signs of problems later.... preventative training is SO MUCH EASIER than having to deal with issues that are fully developed. Beginning instructors/apprentices aren't always able to pick up on that.

I would HIGHLY recommend driving elsewhere to class for two reasons... so you can start sooner...and so you have a better class. I don't know of any veterinary behavior professional who would recommend that type of class... 

A behavior has to be fully trained and practiced and proofed and tested and trained (and trained) before you even think about fading food reinforcement. #1 challenge for me is getting students to do enough reps =before getting rid of the food. Lots and lots of reps and lots and lots of fluency building exercises!

Like some others have said...our food rules are "We use food for training new behaviors or for making known behaviors harder."


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## Luci (May 26, 2009)

IMO:

Since he's so young, I'd also look for a class that has play time. I know it doesn't seem like a big deal, but it makes a huge difference. I wish we had done our first class at the place we ended up at instead of at Petsmart. Our trainer encourages play time, is a mostly positive approach trainer in the beginner classes. Once they are through puppy 2 (at roughly 6-8 months), then the play times get taken out. 

It makes such a difference in your dog.


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Lot's of good info here:

1. The no treats, old school approach of your current trainer may not be appropriate for your golden. But you should check a class out (without Jona) to see what it is all about.
2. Talk with the K9 Assoc of Chicago, and ask them about how often they start up new courses and ask them if they will offer a course on the days you have off. I know our trainer rotates days for the beginning courses so that they can pick up new clients, and then as those students progress, will offer advanced classes on that day so that it works with their existing students. It may just mean you have to wait for the right cycle of classes to start.
3. In the meantime, buy some good training books and read up on different forms of training. I recommend buying books/video's by Ian Dunbar, Jan Fennell, Monks of New Skete, Cesar Milan, Patricia O'Connell, etc.
4. Implement Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF or NILF) in you life now. Google it, and you will find a ton of info on it. (example - http://www.dogguide.net/nilif.php) Most people wait until they have behavior issues before starting it, but if you make it a way of life now, I believe it will help prevent undesirable behaviors before they start.

I know others are gasping at the recommendation of Cesar Milan, and the Monks of New Skete, but I truly believe that one needs to do broad research and understand the wide range of training techniques. Only then can you formulate your own plan for your dog. If you are like me you will take something away from all of them, even if it is "Gosh, I would never do that to my dog!" I have found that I have become a dog book junkie; I read books about behavior, training, or just stories. If it has a dog in it, I will read it!

Training is an opportunity to truly bond with your dog. You will do somethings right, and somethings wrong. When you do something wrong, the best part is that Jona will never hold it against you! Just make a note of it, and move on. One final thing, when working with Jona, learn to listen to him...you will be surprised what he has to teach you!


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