# New Jersey Breeders



## [email protected] (Apr 4, 2009)

Hi everyone - I need help with New Jersey breeders. Has anyone ever heard anything about Robin Mier of Four Willows or Cynazar Golden Retrievers and the last one is Picabo? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

bumping up


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

There is a thread here on Picabo goldens - let me see if I can find it for you.
The others I have never heard of.

Here's the thread - hope it helps:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56645&highlight=picabo


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Here is a thread on Four Willows.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=49749&highlight=willows

I was not able to figure out what the issue was in the thread on Picabo. Although I have never had any dealings with Barbara (Picabo) I do know someone with dogs from her and they are healthy, happy nice dogs. For whatever that is worth.

I have to say that the Cynazar website is one that would cause me to not go there. I am not fond of selling dogs via the web and paypal, nor the references to "English cremes and whites". I honestly did not look any further. But those are my personal bugaboos.


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## Cynazar Goldens (Oct 25, 2010)

Hello,
I am Jenne Black and I represent Cynazar Goldens. If anyone has any questions about us or our dogs, feel free to email me at [email protected]. I always get back to my emails quickly and thoroughly.

AmbikaGR-
I invite you to take a look at the Cynazar site now. Please note that we DO NOT sell our puppies "over the web". We require that a family come to our home so that we can get a feel for how they are (which is impossible to do through emails and difficult to do over the phone). Even though the "white" color is beautiful, we put our effort into breeding excellent health, wonderful temperaments, and outstanding conformation. I use "English Cream" to describe the "European look" that our gorgeous imports have and produce. Please feel free to take a look at their pedigrees, as I have them posted on the site for all to see.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions!
Thanks,
Jenne


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

New Jersey Breeder

Shoregold Golden Retrievers
www.shoregoldgoldenretrievers.com


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Hi everyone - I need help with New Jersey breeders. Has anyone ever heard anything about Robin Mier of Four Willows or Cynazar Golden Retrievers and the last one is Picabo? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


I haven't heard of Four Willows or Cynazar but I met Barbara (Picabo) and visited her home years ago before we got Darby. She was working very hard to breed healthy dogs, she had several dogs/bitches from Germany that she was using in her breeding program. They were all quite lovely.

Her website still lists the NJ address but I think she has moved to North Carolina a couple years ago.

I recommend that you go and meet each breeder and visit their homes/kennels before you make a decision.

Good-luck with your search.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Hello,
> I am Jenne Black and I represent Cynazar Goldens. If anyone has any questions about us or our dogs, feel free to email me at [email protected]. I always get back to my emails quickly and thoroughly.
> 
> AmbikaGR-
> ...


No where on your site do I read that "We require that a family come to our home so that we can get a feel for how they are".
Well you still advertise them as "English Creams". It is a marketing ploy used by savvy breeders to charge more for their pups.
You state that all your breeding stock has CERF certification. Yet the first three dogs listed (Skimo, Diamond, Beauty) can not be found in CERF's database. 
I decided not to waste any more time on your site. And I just hope others doing searches on the web for you see this and the other thread.


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## Cynazar Goldens (Oct 25, 2010)

AmbikaGR-
I do recall stating that we "will not sell a puppy who we feel won't provide a secure, loving home for one of our dogs."
Deposit Information
I do not see what is wrong with the term "English Cream". I am sure many breeders are copying the term in order to charge more for puppies. Ever since we picked our first English Cream puppy up from the airport years ago I have been referring to them as "English Creams". Is there a different term that I should be using?
Yes, all of our breeding males and females do have their CERF. If you would like, you're welcome to come here and view the actual documents proving this. I personally go with my mom to the vet and watch them during the testing process. Breeding dogs without all of their clearances is incredibly irresponsible since there is really no way to know whether or not you will pass on a genetic problem to the puppies.

We breed healthy, happy, gorgeous Golden Retrievers. I personally put all my time and effort into our Goldens, as does the rest of the family. The best part about what I do is hearing the feedback from the families that take our puppies home.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Cynazar Goldens said:


> AmbikaGR-
> I do recall stating that we "will not sell a puppy who we feel won't provide a secure, loving home for one of our dogs."
> Deposit Information


As I stated I do not see any where on your website that states "We require that a family come to our home so that we can get a feel for how they are". The above statement does not say this to me.



Cynazar Goldens said:


> AmbikaGR-
> 
> I do not see what is wrong with the term "English Cream". I am sure many breeders are copying the term in order to charge more for puppies. Ever since we picked our first English Cream puppy up from the airport years ago I have been referring to them as "English Creams". Is there a different term that I should be using?


Golden Retrievers of lighter shades. Ask anyone in England what an "English Cream" is and you will get the answer - "never heard of them" or "no such animal". It is strictly an advertising ploy. 



Cynazar Goldens said:


> AmbikaGR-
> 
> Yes, all of our breeding males and females do have their CERF. If you would like, you're welcome to come here and view the actual documents proving this. I personally go with my mom to the vet and watch them during the testing process. Breeding dogs without all of their clearances is incredibly irresponsible since there is really no way to know whether or not you will pass on a genetic problem to the puppies.
> 
> We breed healthy, happy, gorgeous Golden Retrievers. I personally put all my time and effort into our Goldens, as does the rest of the family. The best part about what I do is hearing the feedback from the families that take our puppies home.



If the CERF exam form is not sent into CERF by the dog's owner then the dogs do not have their "CERF". CERF stands for Canine Eye Registration Foundation ( CERF - CERF Information (Brochure) ). It costs a whopping $12 for the initial submission and then another $8 for subsequent yearly submissions. The eyes need to be done every year - unlike hips, elbows and hearts. 

And I believe that a breeder needs to be involved with the breed in more than just breeding. They need to be active in local Golden Retriever/All Breed clubs and active in evaluating their breeding stock via conformation, field, obedience etc.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I completely support Ambika's assessment and concerns about this breeder. I have a real problem with "breeders" who find that they are being discussed here (and feel strongly that if you are going to put up an internet website to sell puppies that you have opened yourself to that discussion and potential criticism) and edit their sites to reflect what is said here, whether they actually comply or not. Talking the talk but not walking the walk. :no:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Hank's comments are fair and accurate. An "English Cream" is not a type of dog. The dog is a Golden Retriever that happens to be light. It sounds like you're trying to confuse people into thinking they're getting some kind of rare breed.


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## pegburns (Nov 23, 2010)

@[email protected], my name is Peggy Burns and unlike AmbikaGR, I actually own a Cynazar Golden and HIGHLY recommend them...I see your note is from 2009 but if you are still looking for a breeder, you will not be disappointed with Cynazar!!!!...my Kasey is the most unbelievably loving, intelligent, and beautiful Golden I have ever owned! (this is my 3rd Golden)....I would be happy to e-mail you pictures if you want!


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## pegburns (Nov 23, 2010)

@Pointgold....I find any person that uses criticism in a positive way to improve their website is intelligent....I'm curious as to whether you are a competing breeder?.....what credentials do you have?.....have you actually contacted Cynazar, seen their dogs, talked to the breeder, or seen their facility?....just curious!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm going to repost my questions from the other thread on Cynazar Goldens, in the hopes that they get answered somewhere:



> First, the claim on the website that all dogs are CERFed, even though few (none?) are in the CERF database. Is the breeder not getting the dogs CERFed and lying, or is she simply not sending in the forms? If so, does she realize how important it is for yearly eye clearances to be updated in the database so more progress can be made in eliminating PU from the breed?
> 
> Second, the breeding of dogs without entering in conformation or some kind of competition to help the breeder really, truly know which dogs are worth breeding and which conform more tightly to physical and working ability standards (i.e., the complete lack of any titles on these dogs). Does this breeder understand how important it is to hold your dogs up against other dogs from the breed in order to continuously strive for better and better dogs, rather than just producing litter after litter for profit?
> 
> ...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold....I find any person that uses criticism in a positive way to improve their website is intelligent....I'm curious as to whether you are a competing breeder?.....what credentials do you have?.....have you actually contacted Cynazar, seen their dogs, talked to the breeder, or seen their facility?....just curious!


Hey Peg,

Instead of trying to undermine PG's credibility (her breeding history is irrelevant since her questions are meaningful), why don't you answer some of the questions that have been asked about this breeder? For example, if you own a Cynazar dog, were you shown CERF paperwork on the parents? Do you know why the breeder didn't mail it in?

Do you know where all the extra dogs are kept when they're not sold successfully?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold....I find any person that uses criticism in a positive way to improve their website is intelligent....I'm curious as to whether you are a competing breeder?.....what credentials do you have?.....have you actually contacted Cynazar, seen their dogs, talked to the breeder, or seen their facility?....just curious!


 
Using "positive criticism to improve a website" is one thing. Actually DOING what you claim to be is quite another.
The only time I "compete" against another breeder is in the show ring. I support my colleagues who subscribe to the GRCA COE, and who are actually committed to maintaining/improving the breed and working towards the decrease/elimination of genetic health issues, which is done by doing health clearances and participation in and funding of research projects. I _refer _people to such breeders. I cannot, in good conscience, refer to a breeder who does not.


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## lgraham (Nov 24, 2010)

We recently bought our golden/English Cream from Cynazar. She is an amazing dog who is smart loving and very healthy. In fact I am considering purchasing an older golden from Cynazar as a companion to Darla. I do not understand how anyone can post negative comments about a breeder without speaking to, or visiting them. Why write negative comments, when you do not have all the facts. I am sold on Cynazar and will speak about my positive experience to anyone who would like information


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

lgraham said:


> We recently bought our golden/English Cream from Cynazar. She is an amazing dog who is smart loving and very healthy. In fact I am considering purchasing an older golden from Cynazar as a companion to Darla. I do not understand how anyone can post negative comments about a breeder without speaking to, or visiting them. Why write negative comments, when you do not have all the facts. I am sold on Cynazar and will speak about my positive experience to anyone who would like information


It's amazing that all these comments come in on the same theme. It's not an issue of criticizing without facts. It's an issue of looking at the facts that are available and asking questions. Why don't you answer the questions in the thread instead of just popping in as a testimonial?


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Funny how all of these "people" have come out of the woodwork with their 1st posts this week and coincidentally all have dogs from this breeder. Hmmmm.

Anyone looking into ANY breeder should demand to see all 4 clearances in hard copy. I got a hard copy from my breeder and I also verified them on k9data.com and OFA's website.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Anyone looking into ANY breeder should demand to see all 4 clearances in hard copy. I got a hard copy from my breeder and I also verified them on k9data.com and OFA's website.


I used to feel a little less serious about having clearances posted in their respective databases, so long as the breeder had them in hard copy form and I was sure the dogs were actually cleared.

However, Pointgold made some excellent points in her CERF thread about the importance of sending those clearances in to the database, and I was thoroughly convinced by what she said about the importance of having all that data collected in one place. So now I feel like it's really important for breeders not just to get those yearly CERFs but also to have them in the database and to continue to get dogs CERFed and posted after they're done breeding them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

lgraham said:


> We recently bought our golden/English Cream from Cynazar. She is an amazing dog who is smart loving and very healthy. In fact I am considering purchasing an older golden from Cynazar as a companion to Darla. I do not understand how anyone can post negative comments about a breeder without speaking to, or visiting them. Why write negative comments, when you do not have all the facts. I am sold on Cynazar and will speak about my positive experience to anyone who would like information


 
Okay I'll ask _you _this (in the interest of "having all the facts). Were you shown the clearances for the sire and dam or your puppy? Or, did you have to ask to see them? Were they complete (hips/elbows, cardiac, and CERF)? Were you, if not required to, at least told about, the importance of having your "English Cream" (no such thing, actually) Golden Retriever get annual ACVO eye exams? Was PU explained to you? 
Have clearances been done on the older dog that you are considering, especially ANNUAL CERF exams? Will you be "fostering" her and is she to be bred? 
Please, share the "facts".


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

LOL, this is hilarious. Was a mass e-mail sent to all Cynazar puppy buyers to come and try to defend the breeder?? No offense, but nobody here is buying any of it. 

Still waiting for answers...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

nixietink said:


> LOL, this is hilarious. Was a mass e-mail sent to all Cynazar puppy buyers to come and try to defend the breeder?? No offense, but nobody here is buying any of it.
> 
> Still waiting for answers...


 
Yes. We are accused of not knowing the facts, yet, when we ask for them, well, we are accused of not knowing the facts. My concern is healthy dogs.


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## jthompsen (Nov 24, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Hi everyone - I need help with New Jersey breeders. Has anyone ever heard anything about Robin Mier of Four Willows or Cynazar Golden Retrievers and the last one is Picabo? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.


I have a Cynazar Golden and he is wonderful. Duke is a white golden and I have also contacted his brothers and sisters who are doing well. Duke is 2yrs old now and a fabulous dog with a mushy temperment. He loves to cuddle, at 85 lbs., and is extremely sweet.


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## jthompsen (Nov 24, 2010)

jthompsen said:


> I have a Cynazar Golden and he is wonderful. Duke is a white golden and I have also contacted his brothers and sisters who are doing well. Duke is 2yrs old now and a fabulous dog with a mushy temperment. He loves to cuddle, at 85 lbs., and is extremely sweet.


nixi, sounds like you have bad blood or are a breeder yourself trying to cut down the compitetion???


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

jthompsen said:


> nixi, sounds like you have bad blood or are a breeder yourself trying to cut down the compitetion???



No, they are just a concerned lover of Goldens asking for some basic, realistic and pertinent questions to be answered. Nothing more than that.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

The only bad blood generated here is the frustration of trying to get people to understand that someone's breeding practises are not living up to basic accepted standards. PG and the other breeders and owners posting here are trying to point out problems, as we all love the breed and want to see dogs bred only to contribute to the overall wellbeing of the breed. We are going to call someone out when they do not live up to what we consider an obligation. It is something we see as a duty of education. There is nothing personal or profit-motivated in it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

jthompsen said:


> nixi, sounds like you have bad blood or are a breeder yourself trying to cut down the compitetion???


Wow. Is this scripted? 

Were YOU shown all clearances, or, did you have to ask. Were you educated about PU and required to commit to having annual ACVO eye exams done for the life of your dog?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

jthompsen said:


> I have a Cynazar Golden and he is wonderful. Duke is a white golden and I have also contacted his brothers and sisters who are doing well. Duke is 2yrs old now and a fabulous dog with a mushy temperment. He loves to cuddle, at 85 lbs., and is extremely sweet.


"Loves to cuddle and is extremely sweet." 

Are all the new GRF members, joining just to reply to these particular threads, using a prepared script?


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

People here are asking legitimate questions of the breeder and not getting answers. And it is very important questions on the health of the dogs. It is not witchhunt, bad blood, or jealousy. If you look at the GRCA website it shows what should be done to standard and it is not being done by the breeder. 

Everyone on this forum is happy that people that has got their goldens from them is thappy that they are healthy and continue to do so. But the breeder is not answering legitimate questions and there are red flags on their website. When you are a breeder and have a website you are opening yourself up to questions and people have the right to ask questions to other people. People that are familiar with breeding and what to look for. And I guarantee you people of this forum have a wealth of knowledge in breeding responsibly and according to the guidelines of the GRCA and other countries. The breeder may not always answer the questions you want answered.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

jthompsen said:


> nixi, sounds like you have bad blood or are a breeder yourself trying to cut down the compitetion???


LOL! My plan has been revealed. Yes, my neutered golden and I are in cahoots to establish a breeding operation. PUH-LEASE.

As a long time member, I am just SO, SO tired of seeing threads like this. There are very few breeders here and they are in it for the good of the golden retriever breed. It is about THE DOGS. I would be honored to have any of their puppies placed with me. 

Frankly, it makes my blood boil to see breeders like this come here, tell us off, but do not validate any of their claims. It is even worse when puppy buyers get involved. It is NOT personal, so don't make it that way. It has nothing to do with you as a person, or your dog.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

nixietink said:


> LOL! My plan has been revealed. Yes, my neutered golden and I are in cahoots to establish a breeding operation. PUH-LEASE.
> 
> As a long time member, I am just SO, SO tired of seeing threads like this. There are very few breeders here and they are in it for the good of the golden retriever breed. It is about THE DOGS. I would be honored to have any of their puppies placed with me.
> 
> Frankly, it makes my blood boil to see breeders like this come here, tell us off, but do not validate any of their claims. It is even worse when puppy buyers get involved. It is NOT personal, so don't make it that way. It has nothing to do with you as a person, or your dog.


What she said. :thanks:


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Other thing I would say is that everyone here that is asking for answers to these questions is asking because we are passionate about the breed. If you look around the forum you will see that we are big in rescue, support each other in times of sadness and times of happiness, help new puppy buyers, training and we have basically a big love of the breed. 
Also we are tired of seeing our dogs die of cancer, having to have surgeries for hips & elbows, eyes and heart problems, from breeders not doing the required clearances. If more breeders did the required clearances and responsible breeding these problems would happen less in our dogs.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

BeauShel said:


> People here are asking legitimate questions of the breeder and not getting answers. And it is very important questions on the health of the dogs. It is not witchhunt, bad blood, or jealousy. If you look at the GRCA website it shows what should be done to standard and it is not being done by the breeder. .


Very well said, and very true.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

It's all in the delivery. There's a way to discuss these issues that is helpful, and a way that is hurtful. 

I'm nobody when it comes to breeding, but I know I'm very uncomfortable with the tone of breeder threads here on GRF. Happens over and over and over, almost every single time a new breeder inquiry shows up, or a breeder responds. Talk about scripted. We've got 2 going simultaneously today -- same tone, same mockery, same condescension. 

Not a witch hunt, maybe not. But nothing to be particularly proud of, in my opinion. Just because we have passion doesn't mean our manners and goodwill have to fly out the window.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Would a "breeder" who doesn't even pay the CERF fee (like $12 for the initial number and $7 annually to re-cert) pay for annual exams for the puppies of pet buyers? I will. And frankly, I've offered to pay for initial exams for dogs that I didn't even breed. IT IS THAT IMPORTANT. 
Why NOT send the exams in? Because they require that the dog either be micro-chipped, tattoed, or have a DNA profile? Because those costs cut into profits? I don't get it. Why? Which is perferable - those costs, or, literally thousands to care for, including surgical enucleation, a dog with PU?
All of this actually turns my stomach.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> It's all in the delivery. There's a way to discuss these issues that is helpful, and a way that is hurtful.
> 
> I'm nobody when it comes to breeding, but I know I'm very uncomfortable with the tone of breeder threads here on GRF. Happens over and over and over, almost every single time a new breeder inquiry shows up, or a breeder responds. Talk about scripted. We've got 2 going simultaneously today -- same tone, same mockery, same condescension.
> 
> Not a witch hunt, maybe not. But nothing to be particularly proud of, in my opinion. Just because we have passion doesn't mean our manners and goodwill have to fly out the window.


But what about the way the new members are speaking to the breeders and/or other members? I have seen a huge lack of manners there, IMO. 

I think people saying I'm out for blood or a breeder trying to steal competition isn't very friendly or in good tone or manners. What about the other member who told LibertyME that she lacked integrity? I don't think the condescension is one sided.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

This is a very civil discussion and legitimate questions asked of the breeder in this thread and the other thread. If the breeder answered the questions I think we could move on. There is no ganging up, no mocking or anything else. It is all in how you choose to look at it and who is writing the responses.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Just a quick question to the breeders. Would it be at all useful to have all the clearances done on my two? They are both neutered; Darby is 4 and Kirby is 3.

I registered them both on k9 data and would look into doing clearances if this information would help the future of the breed.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

We can't control what other people do. We can control what we do. It's one thing for a new member to come here and be condescending because they don't understand our group or who we really are. It's quite another for a long-standing member(s) of this community to repeatedly ridicule and undermine and mock and just generally be so caustic on the issue. Happens over and over.

I'm not out of my mind. I'm not uncaring about breed standards. I'm just saying I find this all very upsetting and I think this tone and approach on breeder threads seriously detracts from the value of our community. 

Just me.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> We can't control what other people do. We can control what we do. It's one thing for a new member to come here and be condescending because they don't understand our group or who we really are. It's quite another for a long-standing member(s) of this community to repeatedly ridicule and undermine and mock and just generally be so caustic on the issue. Happens over and over.
> 
> I'm not out of my mind. I'm not uncaring about breed standards. I'm just saying I find this all very upsetting and I think this tone and approach on breeder threads seriously detracts from the value of our community.
> 
> Just me.


 
This is uncalled for because this is not true in these threads. No members long term or short term have the right to act like this and there are no posts in this threads like you are describing until now. If you dont like these types of threads, then you can ignore them.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I didn't say any member has a right to be rude or caustic, new or longstanding. What I did imply is that it might be more expected from someone who is brand new here. I said nothing about new members having a "right" to be rude.

Maybe what I'm talking about is happening more in the other thread and I'm getting confused.

But it is happening. Check around the forum, BeauShel, ask around ... it's not just me.

Thank you for your support and for your consideration though, BeauShel. I can see that I am not a valued member here. I will take that into consideration.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Muddypaws said:


> Just a quick question to the breeders. Would it be at all useful to have all the clearances done on my two? They are both neutered; Darby is 4 and Kirby is 3.
> 
> I registered them both on k9 data and would look into doing clearances if this information would help the future of the breed.


It would be beyond useful to have annual eye exams done. Pigmentary Uveitis is a devastating hereditary eye disease, exclusive to GR's, and can cause pain, blindness, and even necessitate the removal of an affected eye. If diagnosed early, NSAID eye drops may prevent its progression. I am requiring annual exams on all puppies sold moving forward.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

You are a valued member here. But the comments were not. This was a good learning thread that asked some legitimate questions. And could be very helpful for members coming here looking for a dog.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> It would be beyond useful to have annual eye exams done. Pigmentary Uveitis is a devastating hereditary eye disease, exclusive to GR's, and can cause pain, blindness, and even necessitate the removal of an affected eye. If diagnosed early, NSAID eye drops may prevent its progression. I am requiring annual exams on all puppies sold moving forward.


Thank you - I will schedule an appointment for both of them. Darby's left eye is often very red and I planned on taking him to an ophthalmologist to check it, I will just take them both to be on the safe side.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Muddypaws said:


> Just a quick question to the breeders. Would it be at all useful to have all the clearances done on my two? They are both neutered; Darby is 4 and Kirby is 3.
> 
> I registered them both on k9 data and would look into doing clearances if this information would help the future of the breed.


As pointed out a yearly check of your dogs eyes by a specialist is infinitely useful to you and your dogs. And if you know the pedigree behind those dogs it makes it that much more valuable to the entire breed. And this is not an overstatement.
As for the other clearances they are also important to you and your dogs. If there are problems that are not easily apparent to the non specialist you could actually save your dogs possibly years of unnecessary pain and perhaps even extend their lives. And again if you know the pedigree behind your dogs this info again in infinitely valuable to your breeders and the breed as a whole.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree with Beaushel that as long as everyone abides by the forum's standards of discourse, there is room for a strong debate. This is a crucial topic ( what is an ethical breeder and what is a poor practice), and one that isnt always pretty in any aspect. I also agree that the less defensive we make people, the more they will learn.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I closed this thread and all discussions in regards to the breeder can be in this thread 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...uppy/60234-reputation-cynazar-goldens-nj.html

Please keep them civil and on topic


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