# Unexpected consequences



## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

A stove vent? What kind of stove is this?


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Nairb said:


> A stove vent? What kind of stove is this?
> 
> 
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It's a normal kitchen gas stove. There is a vent above so that smoke is removed from the house. Often the vent is built into the microwave that sits above the stove. That's how mine is. It is loud-ish and slightly rattles, so I'm guessing that she is generalizing from the rattlesnake training. 

I could be wrong on that, but this came on very fast.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

Could it be fixed? It's probably not supposed to rattle. 


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't think it is really rattling, more that it is a loud noise. One I might note, that she has been hearing since she was seven weeks old and never thought anything about.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Can you get hold of the rattlesnake aversion trainer and ask what would be best?


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

OutWest said:


> Can you get hold of the rattlesnake aversion trainer and ask what would be best?


Thanks. I'll email them. Tonight I worked her in the kitchen and played games with her there. Then I turned on the fan for five seconds and turned it off.

She flipped when I turned it on, but not as badly as before. I may just have to coddle her through this and inch her back to not being afraid.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

That's really strange considering that she's been exposed to that sound since she was 7 weeks old. I know nothing about rattle snake training, but I do believe that it's best if the dog is properly conditioned to an ecollar so that they know that the correction is coming from you, and why. Maybe it's different if it's just a one time thing to make them afraid of snakes?


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Nairb said:


> That's really strange considering that she's been exposed to that sound since she was 7 weeks old. I know nothing about rattle snake training, but I do believe that it's best if the dog is properly conditioned to an ecollar so that they know that the correction is coming from you, and why. Maybe it's different if it's just a one time thing to make them afraid of snakes?


I wasn't the one holding the ecollar. The way they did it is _supposed _to work. I'm guessing she will be spooked by snakes for certain. 

She could be reacting to the fact that she had a rough time lately: lots of vet visits to check up on the ear infections from the foxtails, so lots of scary and painful trips. It may just be a cumulation of things that the world is not always a perfect place for little dogs.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

Oh, poor Maddie. I can see why you would want to train her to avoid rattlesnakes, not sure what the fix is on this problem though. She's definitely had a rough go lately.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

If the vent does sound like the sound she was trained with I can understand how she is afraid.

My dogs are trained to the invisible fence. They are trained by sight of flags, and by sound of collar. If they are in the house and the smoke alarm starts chirping, or for a while there was a commercial that had the same sound, they come running to me confused of what they are supposed to do.

The same thing happens if we are going for a walk, and we come across any little flags on the grass - like gas line flags, etc. They will not pass them, because that is what they were trained to do.

Not sure how to teach them to realize one is okay and the other isn't.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

That is odd to me. Both my boys have had rattlesnake training. And was told they are attracted to the smell not the sound. They are trained to stay away from the smell because normally if you can hear the snake it is often too late. Maybe the sound of the fan hurts her ears?


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Jessie'sGirl said:


> Oh, poor Maddie. I can see why you would want to train her to avoid rattlesnakes, not sure what the fix is on this problem though. She's definitely had a rough go lately.


Though I was second thinking my decision to have done the rattlesnake training I ran into someone this morning who told me about seeing two rattlesnakes at Skofield park yesterday. So, maybe it was a good idea after all.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> That is odd to me. Both my boys have had rattlesnake training. And was told they are attracted to the smell not the sound. They are trained to stay away from the smell because normally if you can hear the snake it is often too late. Maybe the sound of the fan hurts her ears?


I don't believe she was attracted to the sound of rattlesnakes. But the rattlesnakes that were used in aversion were definitely rattling. They did use a snake skin as part of the training, but then also three or four large annoyed rattlesnakes.

She has never reacted to the sound of the fan before this and she has been hearing it since she was 7 weeks old. So I don't think that is the problem, but maybe.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

I think that if rattlesnake proofing is done properly the dog learns to fear and avoid the sight, sound and smell of rattlesnakes. Any of them can be a cue to the dog to go towards it. It's a novel sight, sound and odor, and dogs naturally investigate them because they might be food or something else of interest. 

Rattlers don't always rattle. When they do it's because they have the time to do so. They see, or feel something coming towards them and they know it's not food. And so they make that noise to warn whatever it is that they're present. If they have learned to associate the sound with the snake and they have the time, they'll go the other way. But if the snake is surprised and feels threatened, he may strike without the warning that rattling gives. 

There are lots of rumors about poisonous snakes. That they always rattle is one of them. Another is that, if they rattle, it's already too late. The snake is rattling specifically to scare off a perceived threat.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Lou Castle said:


> I think that if rattlesnake proofing is done properly the dog learns to fear and avoid the sight, sound and smell of rattlesnakes. Any of them can be a cue to the dog to go towards it. It's a novel sight, sound and odor, and dogs naturally investigate them because they might be food or something else of interest.
> 
> Rattlers don't always rattle. When they do it's because they have the time to do so. They see, or feel something coming towards them and they know it's not food. And so they make that noise to warn whatever it is that they're present. If they have learned to associate the sound with the snake and they have the time, they'll go the other way. But if the snake is surprised and feels threatened, he may strike without the warning that rattling gives.
> 
> There are lots of rumors about poisonous snakes. That they always rattle is one of them. Another is that, if they rattle, it's already too late. The snake is rattling specifically to scare off a perceived threat.


Ah...well their rattlesnakes were um... miffed and rattling the whole time. I have been surprised by rattlesnakes before when they weren't rattling, so I completely agree with you.

The handlers certainly were working on smell aversion as they had the snake skin that they used. 

I actually wouldn't know if the process they were doing it correctly or not. I had never seen it done before.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> The handlers certainly were working on smell aversion as they had the snake skin that they used.
> 
> I actually wouldn't know if the process they were doing it correctly or not. I had never seen it done before.


This is a lot more complicated than it appears at first glance. I've seen it done several times and have run several of these clinics. People who run these clinics sometimes don't know very much about scent. Scent has been a very large part of my work since I started training dogs and I know how important it can be in many situations. This is certainly one of those situations. One of the problems that I see here is something that you mention. They're using the skin of a dead snake for part of the training. There's no reason for a dog to avoid the skin of a dead snake. There's no danger there. 

The skin of a dead snake probably has traces of what the snake smelled like when he was alive, but it's not nearly as strong as the scent from a live snake and it also has the smell of dead snake on it, as well as a very strong scent of human (general smell) and the scent of whoever was handling the snake skin (specifically). There's no reason for the dog to be afraid of either the general human scent or that of the person who's handled the skin, either (or both) of which may occur. They've got live snakes right there, I wonder why they just don't use them for the scent portion of the training? 

What's worse, is that many who run these clinics use their own "pet" snakes for the training. Some of them have had these snakes for years. Those snakes don't smell the same as "wild" snakes. They're not in the same environment and they don't eat the same food that has been feeding on the local vegetation. The general smell of humans will be much stronger on them than local snakes and these things can significantly affect the success of the training. Of course it's impossible to eliminate some of these things, but they can be minimized. These snakes will still have the general "rattlesnake" smell present, but the scent picture will be different from wild snakes and some dogs may not respond properly to snakes that they encounter. 

When I've done this, I use "local" snakes that have been recently caught and I release them after the work is done. It's much more trouble to catch wild snakes for this but I think it' well worth it. I use the scent of the live snakes, not a snake skin for the scent portion of the work.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lou Castle said:


> I think that if rattlesnake proofing is done properly the dog learns to fear and avoid the sight, sound and smell of rattlesnakes. Any of them can be a cue to the dog to go towards it. It's a novel sight, sound and odor, and dogs naturally investigate them because they might be food or something else of interest.
> 
> Rattlers don't always rattle. When they do it's because they have the time to do so. They see, or feel something coming towards them and they know it's not food. And so they make that noise to warn whatever it is that they're present. If they have learned to associate the sound with the snake and they have the time, they'll go the other way. But if the snake is surprised and feels threatened, he may strike without the warning that rattling gives.
> 
> There are lots of rumors about poisonous snakes. That they always rattle is one of them. Another is that, if they rattle, it's already too late. The snake is rattling specifically to scare off a perceived threat.


Yes we all know the rattle is a warning, and at that point you are pretty much in striking distance. Which can be too late. That is why smell is a huge part in training. Our training snakes were not pets. They used the snake only, no skins. We have a home in the desert and our first golden alerted us to 3 rattlers in our garden ?


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Lou Castle said:


> This is a lot more complicated than it appears at first glance. I've seen it done several times and have run several of these clinics. People who run these clinics sometimes don't know very much about scent. Scent has been a very large part of my work since I started training dogs and I know how important it can be in many situations. This is certainly one of those situations. One of the problems that I see here is something that you mention. They're using the skin of a dead snake for part of the training. There's no reason for a dog to avoid the skin of a dead snake. There's no danger there.
> 
> The skin of a dead snake probably has traces of what the snake smelled like when he was alive, but it's not nearly as strong as the scent from a live snake and it also has the smell of dead snake on it, as well as a very strong scent of human (general smell) and the scent of whoever was handling the snake skin (specifically). There's no reason for the dog to be afraid of either the general human scent or that of the person who's handled the skin, either (or both) of which may occur. They've got live snakes right there, I wonder why they just don't use them for the scent portion of the training?
> 
> ...


Ah. I see. Interesting.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Yes we all know the rattle is a warning, and at that point you are pretty much in striking distance. Which can be too late. That is why smell is a huge part in training. Our training snakes were not pets. They used the snake only, no skins. We have a home in the desert and our first golden alerted us to 3 rattlers in our garden ?


I can see why now you wouldn't use skins.


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

I know we had the same thing happen when we tried an electric fence with our RB-Logan. The small beeping sound never left him. Even though we never used the fence after we realized it just was not for him. Small beeps the rest of his life bothered him. Do you have another small fan you can plug in to see if it is the sound that she is now associating with? Though this might sound silly, you might take the vent screens off your stove hood and spray some WD-40 on any moving parts/joints on the fan mechanism to see if you can quiet it down just a bit. Otherwise, I think you are going to have to try and work with her (like you have started to do) on accepting the noise from the fan a little at a time. Even though the fan has been around since she was a puppy, she has learned a new sound to be wary of and the stove hood might sound very much like it to her. Good luck.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Our3dogs said:


> I know we had the same thing happen when we tried an electric fence with our RB-Logan. The small beeping sound never left him. Even though we never used the fence after we realized it just was not for him. Small beeps the rest of his life bothered him. Do you have another small fan you can plug in to see if it is the sound that she is now associating with? Though this might sound silly, you might take the vent screens off your stove hood and spray some WD-40 on any moving parts/joints on the fan mechanism to see if you can quiet it down just a bit. Otherwise, I think you are going to have to try and work with her (like you have started to do) on accepting the noise from the fan a little at a time. Even though the fan has been around since she was a puppy, she has learned a new sound to be wary of and the stove hood might sound very much like it to her. Good luck.


Thanks for your suggestions. I'll try them.


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## Lou Castle (Mar 16, 2011)

*More than most people want to know about rattlesnakes and their bites.*



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Yes we all know the rattle is a warning, and at that point you are pretty much in striking distance. Which can be too late.


Not everyone knows that the rattle is a warning. I've met many people who think that rattlesnakes rattle all the time as they move about. They don't. Because of the many rumors and myths that surround snakes of all kinds, and especially rattlers, there is much misinformation about them. One of the more fun ones is that when you kill a rattlesnake, you have to cut off the head and bury it because "wasps will eat the head and then their sting will be as poisonous as the snake bite!" 

How far away one is when they hear a rattlesnake rattling depends on a lot of factors, how noisy it is (wind noise can cover it up), how good one's hearing is, how loud the snake is rattling, how big the snake is, whether the wind is blowing from the snake towards you or away, if the snake has any rattles (sometimes they break and fall off and very young snakes don't have a rattle, they only have the "button" that's a the base of the rattle) and more. There is no set distance at which a snake will start rattling. It will be as soon as he perceives a potential threat, but only if the threat is far enough away that he thinks he can warn it away. But it isn't always within striking distance when the rattling starts. Sometimes it's way out of the reach of a strike and sometimes it's well within a dangerous distance. 

Rattling rattlesnakes don't always bite and when they bite, they don't always inject venom. Adult snakes, if they have the time, can control how much venom they inject, or if they inject any at all. If they don't inject any, and there are many reasons why this might occur, it's called "a dry bite." Adults rarely die from rattlesnake bites these days because they usually get rapid medical assistance and the antivenins are effective. But children and small animals, including dogs, are in much more danger. Getting bitten is very painful, especially if envenomization occurs. There are large amounts of swelling, which is painful by itself, and often more damage comes from the impairment of blood circulation, that can result in gangrene, than the venom itself. 



Wyatt's mommy said:


> We have a home in the desert and our first golden alerted us to 3 rattlers in our garden &#55357;&#56836;


Yikes, that's a lot of snakes. Here's another fun rumor ... Want to keep snakes out of your yard? Lay down a rope made from horsehide around the perimeter of the property. It's rough and prickly and the snakes don't like crawling across it, so they won't come into your yard. Cowboys on the prairie used to do this around their bed rolls, and they never got bit! 

I also have a bridge for sale if anyone needs one. Lol.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Lou Castle said:


> Yikes, that's a lot of snakes. Here's another fun rumor ... Want to keep snakes out of your yard? Lay down a rope made from horsehide around the perimeter of the property. It's rough and prickly and the snakes don't like crawling across it, so they won't come into your yard. Cowboys on the prairie used to do this around their bed rolls, and they never got bit!
> 
> I also have a bridge for sale if anyone needs one. Lol.


You are from L.A. so you must be familiar with the Colorado River. We have a vacation home there. These 3 snakes were not all on one visit. When the house has been closed up, critters seem to work their way to our home. We have encountered many babies and adults over the years. And we are not very close to emergency facilities. (20 miles off a 2 lane road) I am more afraid of the scorpions than snakes if truth be told.  However if I am in hearing distance and turn and see a coiled rattle snake (which has happened) I surely am not going to wait and see what decision he decides to take LOL! But since we have had our dogs and they have taken the aversion classes I feel much safer for them and us. AND I can brag that it does work.

I would also like to point out that it helps to have refresher courses.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

How is reconditioning going? Have you had any luck reducing the fear of the fan?

Whether the fear is related to the aversion training or not, the approach you'd take would probably be the same. Find a level of exposure at which the dog can tell the scary thing is there but isn't truly in a freakout mode about it. For something like a kitchen vent, that might mean running it at the lowest setting and/or working with the dog in a different room. You want that sweet spot where the dog is aware of the thing but isn't in a full-blown panic.

Then, go into a work/play mode with the dog. Your attitude should be "good dog, no big deal," and you should speak in an encouraging, mid-range voice. Loud, exciting, dramatic voices should be avoided, and definitely don't say anything in a high-pitched voice because it's easy for dogs to misinterpret that as a sign that you're anxious.

Once the dog seems really comfortable at that level of exposure, reduce the distance and/or increase the sound bit by bit over several play sessions, always setting the dog up to succeed and being careful never to do anything that takes the dog over that freakout threshold where she won't play, do commands, or accept rewards.

So, basically, or thought to give her rewards while she was exposed was a good one, but it sounds like she was WAY over threshold, so it was too much for her to handle. Find a way to start small and increase incrementally.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Not great. She is still freaking out a bit. So much so that she jumps over the fence (okay so it isn't a huge fence) whenever she thinks we might turn it on. I've been calling her over to the stove and just giving her treats, but she is wary.

It's going to take a little time. Nevertheless, she gets crated for hopping the fence. That is unacceptable.

We're going to start by getting a much better fence.

Otherwise, she is fine. Lovely recall, not bad heel and side. Amazing stays and downs at a distance.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> It's going to take a little time. Nevertheless, she gets crated for hopping the fence. That is unacceptable.


Are you sure that she can connect that sequence in her head? If she's truly afraid and fleeing the fan, I don't think that crating her after jumping the fence will really teach her not to jump the fence. Just a thought.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Did you ask the trainers for advice? I understand wanting to desensitize to the fan but I would be concerned about undoing rattlesnake training.

Around here they offer general snake proofing. I believe they walk around with a bull snake and let the dogs get a good smell. Then they have you walk by the snake with your dog and run away dramaticallyscreaming "get away get away" in the opposite direction. I haven't taken the class but want to with Kenzie.

I did see the effects of snake proofing once. There were 6 people with 8 dogs, only one of whom had had snake training. 5 of the people and 7 of the dogs walked within 2 feet of a rattler on a trail. The last dog/person (had the training) bristled and wouldn't go by the snake-which led the snake to start warning us to stay away! We were lucky that none of the earlier dogs noticed the snake! We used a very very long stick to get it away from the trail so the next dog wouldn't get bitten.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Are you sure that she can connect that sequence in her head? If she's truly afraid and fleeing the fan, I don't think that crating her after jumping the fence will really teach her not to jump the fence. Just a thought.


Maybe, but she stood at the fence, which she is not allow over while I said, no. And then the word crate. She did think about it.

It's all of a ten minute time out, so she isn't being horribly mistreated.

Gwen


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

Jennifer1 said:


> Did you ask the trainers for advice? I understand wanting to desensitize to the fan but I would be concerned about undoing rattlesnake training.
> 
> Around here they offer general snake proofing. I believe they walk around with a bull snake and let the dogs get a good smell. Then they have you walk by the snake with your dog and run away dramaticallyscreaming "get away get away" in the opposite direction. I haven't taken the class but want to with Kenzie.
> 
> I did see the effects of snake proofing once. There were 6 people with 8 dogs, only one of whom had had snake training. 5 of the people and 7 of the dogs walked within 2 feet of a rattler on a trail. The last dog/person (had the training) bristled and wouldn't go by the snake-which led the snake to start warning us to stay away! We were lucky that none of the earlier dogs noticed the snake! We used a very very long stick to get it away from the trail so the next dog wouldn't get bitten.


Interesting and much gentler. Thanks.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

We just tried it again with peanut butter as the treat. We got her down to the bottom of the stairs and then she panicked. Unfortunately the back door was open. She jumped the fence and refused to come when called (a major failing and an odd behavior which has been the pattern since the rattlesnake aversion). We crated her for ten minutes. Then, without the vent on, Josh tried to get her in the kitchen. She ran outside and got into her crate. 

So we're going to try much slower this next week to ease her down the stairs when the vent is on, maybe only halfway the first couple of days. 

She's laying here next to me on the bed right now.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Gwen_Dandridge said:


> Maybe, but she stood at the fence, which she is not allow over while I said, no. And then the word crate. She did think about it.
> 
> It's all of a ten minute time out, so she isn't being horribly mistreated.


Oh - I didn't mean to imply it was cruel at all. I was just wondering if would work effectively to reduce the fence jumping because it sounded like it might be difficult for her to connect those things together.


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> Oh - I didn't mean to imply it was cruel at all. I was just wondering if would work effectively to reduce the fence jumping because it sounded like it might be difficult for her to connect those things together.


 Well, don't know for an absolute fact, what she connects. She does know that jumping the fence and (then, worse, not coming) is frowned upon here. She's a smart dog.

At least the last time, she cut out the middle-man and went right to the crate (rather then jumping the fence), avoiding all the yelling entirely. Which was fine!


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