# I just emailed the AKC



## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Knowing NOTHING about these obedience divisions... why wouldn't Flip be ready for Novice? I am hoping to do some novice with Gabby and Teddi. I KNOW Teddi would be ready but wondering what the requirements are. I saw a beginner novice class at an obedience trial, it did not look too difficult. I was thinking I could probably get Gabby there in 2011. I would LOVE your opinion. 

Oh and Jodie.... I was thinking of you and Flip yesterday as Gabby was pogo stick jumping all around me yesterday. OH NO I HAVE A FEMALE FLIP!!!! LOL


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

But (if I read this right)... I'm thinking the reason why they wouldn't let people continue to show in BN after titling is because there are placements and scoring. 

Heheh. It would drive me nuts if I had no chance of getting first place in my three legs because a more experienced trainer with their dynamo dog was using BN as training. 

I was thinking about entering Jacks in a couple prenovice classes this month and the next (all on leash, etc - including the STAYS!).... but I've never seen one and was nervous about entering something I've never actually watched. I have no idea where these classes are held at the shows I've been at.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> Knowing NOTHING about these obedience divisions... why wouldn't Flip be ready for Novice?


He knows the skills, but he's got so much growing up to do mentally and a lot more proofing to go through. I could enter him in novice today and he _might _pass, or he might say "hey look, a fluff of hair on the ground, let me check it out!" during the off leash heeling, or during the stays he might say "oh I want to be friends with him!!!" and go visiting. I don't want to show a dog that might do well, I want to show a dog that I know has the best chance of doing well that he can barring unusual circumstances. (And a dog that has even a possibility of getting up to go visit other dogs has absolutely no business in the ring IMO)



> Oh and Jodie.... I was thinking of you and Flip yesterday as Gabby was pogo stick jumping all around me yesterday. OH NO I HAVE A FEMALE FLIP!!!! LOL


heehee, welcome to my world!:311hi-thu



Megora said:


> But (if I read this right)... I'm thinking the reason why they wouldn't let people continue to show in BN after titling is because there are placements and scoring.
> 
> Heheh. It would drive me nuts if I had no chance of getting first place in my three legs because a more experienced trainer with their dynamo dog was using BN as training.


 I don't see how it would be any different from any other class. Plenty of people enter their dogs in novice and them keep them there for awhile until they are ready for open


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I don't see how it would be any different from any other class. Plenty of people enter their dogs in novice and them keep them there for awhile until they are ready for open


I didn't know that.  

I thought you were limited to 30 days or something like that (?) which you were allowed to keep showing a titled dog in novice.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

While it sounds nice, I kind of agree with Megora--if BN is titling and people are getting placements it would be a real downer for newbies to have to compete with someone more experienced using the ring time as training. I know people who have not done anything with obedience before go into BN and feel great for getting that title or placement--but again, it would be a real downer if someone was constantly showing in that class with you that already had the title. JMO.

Maybe they should set it up so you can 'audit'--participate but not be scored for the title?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Refresh me on the rules, can you show in novice indefinitely after getting the title or just for a short amount of time? I thought (at least with open) you only had a certain window after getting the title in which you could show.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You can show in Novice until you either get a qualifying score in open, or if it's 60 days after your title and you earn a HIT.

Conner earned HIT the day he got his title and the day after. Since those were not sixty days after his title they did not affect his ability to show in novice. He did not get any other HIT's from novice, and we continued to show in the class for 9 months, until he was ready for open.

Colby also earned HIT the day he earned his CD. I didn't show him for another month, and he earned another HIT. Then I showed him again about a month later (still within the sixty days) and he got a 3rd HIT. A month later we showed outside of our sixty days and he earned his 4th HIT. That HIT meant we could not enter in Novice anymore. We could, however, still compete in any novice classes where the trial had already closed. (btw, I guess the secret to showing a lhasa apso in novice is only show him once a month! LOL, I wouldn't even enter him twice a weekend b/c he would have given me the paw the second day!)

Annabel, well, there was never any fear of her earning a HIT. Poor novice A doggy LOL. We competed on and off in novice for, like, a year and a half before going into open.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> . I know people who have not done anything with obedience before go into BN and feel great for getting that title or placement.


That's why they have Beginner Novice A and Beginner Novice B.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Refresh me on the rules, can you show in novice indefinitely after getting the title or just for a short amount of time? I thought (at least with open) you only had a certain window after getting the title in which you could show.


That's with the A classes. Once you earn your title from Novice A, Open A or Utility A you can remain in those classes for 60 days. But you continue to show in the B classes indefinitely, with the exceptions to the novice class that I listed above.

There are, btw, very few people who choose to remain in utility A after earning the title. If they choose to continue competing in utility, most will move to utility B at the first chance they get. Actually a lot will move to B before earning the title


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I learned something new today<: 

That is good to know, especially since I expect it will be a LONG time before Jacks is ready to start showing in Open (unless they get rid of the OoS stays).



> That's why they have Beginner Novice A and Beginner Novice B.


Sometimes those B classes have a lot of people who haven't shown a dog in 10+ years. So they can feel like total newbies when they enter those classes. 

I do think that if you have a really good B dog, then even if the "competition" is a lot more experienced, there is still a chance that your dog will still have a stronger showing than their dogs.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

> Sometimes those B classes have a lot of people who haven't shown a dog in 10+ years. So they can feel like total newbies when they enter those classes.


sure, but I still think it's no different than all the regular obedience classes.



> I do think that if you have a really good B dog, then even if the "competition" is a lot more experienced, there is still a chance that your dog will still have a stronger showing than their dogs.


Well sure, isn't that the whole point of placements? To find the best team there, not the most experienced team. There are days my dog and I have gone out and beaten the teams with 20 plus years experience and multiple OTCH's. I've also lost HIT to a Novice A team out for their very first time before.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I guess it depends on the priorities of each team as to how they feel about the issue. If one's priority is getting placements then I guess they would want to get rid of as much competition as possible. My goal is to help my dog reach his full potential, and placements are just icing on the cake. Having really successful teams in the same class as me helps motivate me to be at their level. And the win is so much sweeter when you do beat those teams than when you win just because there wasn't really any competition in the class.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Well sure, isn't that the whole point of placements? To find the best team there, not the most experienced team. There are days my dog and I have gone out and beaten the teams with 20 plus years experience and multiple OTCH's. *I've also lost HIT to a Novice A team out for their very first time before. *


*grins* I know that is possible because if it weren't for my Jacks' CONFOUNDED stay problem, he would have gotten a HIT at his first show with a 197. <- That would be sheer luck, because I know that the other shows we entered those mondo experienced people were getting 199's in open and utility. 



> I guess it depends on the priorities of each team as to how they feel about the issue. If one's priority is getting placements then I guess they would want to get rid of as much competition as possible. My goal is to help my dog reach his full potential, and placements are just icing on the cake. Having really successful teams in the same class as me helps motivate me to be at their level. And the win is so much sweeter when you do beat those teams than when you win just because there wasn't really any competition in the class.


I guess I can see it that way, I suppose. 

My original AACK reaction was more based on my feelings when I was showing in novice A. I knew he would not be able to do anything else after getting his title, plus we were on borrowed time because of his elbows, so I really DID want to get placements. So in that case it really meant something - especially since I trained him 4 years to get to that point, darnit! 

Now that I'm novice B, I want the placements + high scores + HIT (even though again, that would be sheer luck given the competition showing their multiple dogs in multiple classes). <- But I do feel that if the darned stays get straightened out, my golden will be able to do all that regardless of the competition. And getting a Blue ribbon is so much sweeter when the whole class qualifies with scores in the 190's. So there I do agree.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, so are you saying that you can show in all the other B classes indefinitely but you can't in BN? That doesn't make sense. If you can, then not sure why the email...? If you can't, well, then sounds fair to me that you should be able to show in BN until you get a CD.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Ok, so are you saying that you can show in all the other B classes indefinitely but you can't in BN? That doesn't make sense. If you can, then not sure why the email...? If you can't, well, then sounds fair to me that you should be able to show in BN until you get a CD.


Yep, Open B and Utility B you can show in indefinitely. Novice B you can show in indefinitely if you never get a qualifying score in Open or a HIT 60 days after you earn your CD. 

But with Beginner Novice, it is 3 legs and you're out. I just think that inexperienced dogs could use more than 3 times in the ring before moving on to novice.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Ok I really need to look at the rules which I have not yet, but I am not showing yet either... 

I thought that "A" was for untitled dogs & handlers like agility novice A. I can NEVER run agility A again, I titled Belle so any new dog I run must be run in B. I take it that is not the case with obedience. Here I was thinking I would try to show Teddi and Gabby together so the could both be "A" dogs. I could conceivably title Teddi, then come back with Gabby in A correct? 

Forgive me, I am just thinking about dabbling in the obedience ring, so I am REALLY confused.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Novice A is for handlers that have never earned an obedience title before. Open A and Utility A is based on the dog, not the handler. So it is for dogs that have never earned that particular title, even if the handler has put the title on other dogs before. There are exceptions, such as OTCH handlers cannot show in the A classes, and only owners or family members may show dogs in A.

So I can never again show in Novice A. I can put all my dogs in open A or utility A in order to earn their title however (unless I someday earn an OTCH or want to take someone else's dog in the ring for them)

Michelle will have to show all future dogs in B classes only in obedience. But, to make things even more confusing, rally does not take the OTCH into consideration, so she could show a new dog in Advanced A or Excellent A, until it earns any obedience title, then that dog must show in B.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Yep, Open B and Utility B you can show in indefinitely. Novice B you can show in indefinitely if you never get a qualifying score in Open or a HIT 60 days after you earn your CD.
> 
> But with Beginner Novice, it is 3 legs and you're out. I just think that inexperienced dogs could use more than 3 times in the ring before moving on to novice.


Ooooooh! Gotcha, well, that only seems fair. I hope they change it.

BTW Max'sMom, I do know this much--a rally title counts for obedience. So, if you have ever put a rally title on a dog you will have to show in B.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> BTW Max'sMom, I do know this much--a rally title counts for obedience. So, if you have ever put a rally title on a dog you will have to show in B.


Actually, it's the other way around. Obedience titles put you in rally B classes. Rally titles do not affect obedience class eligibility at all.

Rally rules: Novice A is for handlers who have never put any kind of obedience title or rally title on a dog. Advanced A and Excellent A are for DOGS that have never earned an obedience title. Once the rally title has been earned, the dog can continue to show in the B class forever.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> Actually, it's the other way around. Obedience titles put you in rally B classes. Rally titles do not affect obedience class eligibility at all.
> 
> Rally rules: Novice A is for handlers who have never put any kind of obedience title or rally title on a dog. Advanced A and Excellent A are for DOGS that have never earned an obedience title. Once the rally title has been earned, the dog can continue to show in the B class forever.


And only obedience titles on the dog you are showing in Rally (except Rally Novice A which is new handlers/new dogs). So I had to show Piper in Rally Novice B, but since she has no "real" obedience titles yet, I will be able to show her in Rally Advanced A and Rally Excellent A (then Novice B, Open A, Utility A if we get that far).


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Ooooooh! Gotcha, well, that only seems fair. I hope they change it.
> 
> BTW Max'sMom, I do know this much--a rally title counts for obedience. So, if you have ever put a rally title on a dog you will have to show in B.


Jodie is right, rally doesn't effect regular obedience. I showed Ruby in Rally Novice A and I then later was able to show her in regular Novice A.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Now I get why there are way too many confused people posting about this sort of thing on the obed lists....

It's complicated!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

One thing to consider also is that the Beginner Novice title DOES count as an obedience title, so any dog earning that title would have to show in all B rally classes after that.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> Now I get why there are way too many confused people posting about this sort of thing on the obed lists....
> 
> It's complicated!


I'm a total rules junkie LOL


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Wow. I am confused--who makes up these rules?! Glad you got them down Loisiana!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jodie - do I have this clear... if I title my golden this year and am able to get him into open, he (c)would be open A? 

So... do people choose to show in A or B?

(and why would you choose B if you could show in A?)


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Yes, you could show in Open A until 60 days after you earn the CDX, then if you wanted to show in Open after that it would have to be in B.

There are several reason why someone might choose to show in B instead of A. The biggest reason being that the order of excercises is mixed up in B, while it's always the same in the A classes. I personally hate when we get order I (the A class order).

Another reason some people show in Open B instead of A is they believe the dogs in that class will be more reliable during the stays. Less chance of some dog running amuck or going visiting.

You might be avoiding whoever is judging the A class (already got a leg under that judge or just plain don't like him!).

If you look at it from a placing standpoint....In this area when you qualify in the A classes you almost always get a placement because we rarely have more than 4 qualifiers in an A class. So if you qualify you are almost guaranteed a placement. If that is important to you then A is a good place to be. On the other hand, B placements are certainly not a given, so earning one from that class means so much more. If I got to choose between a 1st in Open A or a 4th in Open B I'd take the Open B 4th!

And when it comes to utility, the day you earn your final leg, you can start working on UDX legs, OTCH points, and Obedience Master points. But all of those have to be earned from the B class.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Megora said:


> So... do people choose to show in A or B?
> 
> (and why would you choose B if you could show in A?)


deleted - duplicated Jodie's post virtually


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Jodie thank you I didn't mean to take this off in a direction other than you intended original post. It was helpful for a dork like me. 

I may call on your "rules junkie" knowledge more. My "plan" whether or not it is feasible. I hope to get a novice title on Teddi and Gabby this year, then next year work on their CD hoping to finish at Golden National in St Louis. That may be as far as I go. It is definitely with Teddi, I will wait and see with Gabby. Remember... agility is my first love. However I figure I can do this with Gabby while she is too young to compete in agility and we all know better obedience on a dog, makes them better in any venue.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> Novice A is for handlers that have never earned an obedience title before. Open A and Utility A is based on the dog, not the handler. So it is for dogs that have never earned that particular title, even if the handler has put the title on other dogs before. There are exceptions, such as OTCH handlers cannot show in the A classes, and only owners or family members may show dogs in A.
> 
> So I can never again show in Novice A. I can put all my dogs in open A or utility A in order to earn their title however (unless I someday earn an OTCH or want to take someone else's dog in the ring for them)
> 
> Michelle will have to show all future dogs in B classes only in obedience. But, to make things even more confusing, rally does not take the OTCH into consideration, so she could show a new dog in Advanced A or Excellent A, until it earns any obedience title, then that dog must show in B.


I think it was a little while before that thought occured to me!:
Oh and yes this dog was my 1st back in the ring after 10+ years and I still had to go into Novice B with him. I also showed in Open A for a short while until I was in a group or sits and downs that did not go well for the dog beside Titan.. Scared me right up to the B classes. I showed Titan in exactly three shows in UA and then moved him over..Figured if I needed I would complete my title in the B class. :wavey:.. 
Word of advice for anyone in Open... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure your stays are solid before you enter a real trial. You may not only affect your dog but the dogs around you depending on what happens and you can ruin a dog for life. I have seen one dog get attacked by another dog two over and then never work it out and they had to retire the dog. ...
Okay off the soapbox.. LOL:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks Jodie! Watching at fun matches, I always wondered when I heard the "judges" ask whether people wanted the A or B pattern. Now I know. 

Ann - by 2012, Gabby will be 1.5. I'm sure by that time she might be ready for Novice, or at the least you can do Rally with her. The problem with Novice is getting the young dog calm enough in the ring to handle the off leash exercises. It's not impossible, but sometimes people give the dogs a little extra time to grow up. <- With Jacks our problem at the time was the stand for exam. He's solid on it now, but when he was about a year old he couldn't contain his joy. 

Are you going to train with Adele? 



> Word of advice for anyone in Open... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE make sure your stays are solid before you enter a real trial. You may not only affect your dog but the dogs around you depending on what happens and you can ruin a dog for life. I have seen one dog get attacked by another dog two over and then never work it out and they had to retire the dog. ...
> Okay off the soapbox..


Jacks thankfully has no interest in the dogs around him. I'm convinced he would be one of those idiots who gets up and tries leaving the ring after me. I'm hoping the extra training we do in the next year or two will get him over his seperation anxiety before we start showing in open.


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