# RUN, RUN As Fast As You Can......



## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Hello Everyone

First, I am the first one to admit that I seem to have to learn everything the hard way, so while you are reading this and you are thinking "how could she be SO ignorant"......I already KNOW what I *should* have done. 

I am not a "new" member, but have never really done much posting but I have done a lot of searching on this forum recently and I certainly wish I would have discovered this forum about 3 years ago and the information I recently obtained from it! Would have probably saved me from the heartbreak I am going through right now.

I have a 3 (just) year old male golden that I purchased from White Dove Golden Retrievers. He is a WONDERFUL dog...just as sweet as can be. Did I pay an arm and a leg for him. YES! But is he healthy? NO! I was hoping if I went to the "European breeding" I could get away from the health problems. WRONG! Well, maybe right, but not from this breeder!

Let me start from the beginning......at 6 months it was entropion......yes, the breeder said I could bring him back.......I loved him by that time! Surgery to correct.

Next at 18 months......grand mal seizures. Breeder says NO seizures in any of my dogs.......and of course the one year "warranty" was up. 

Now, at 3 years old he is up at UC Davis being tested for neuro-muscular disease.....neurologist leaning towards muscular dystrophy. Prognosis is not good. No cure, no treatment.

So here I sit wondering how I could have been so dumb.....all the signs were there but I chose to ignore them I guess. It is not really the money ....... I have certainly "blown" money in my life .... it is really more the fact that she got to me (and my heart). It is the fact that I know what lies ahead and it is going to be MUCH TOO SOON. 

I noted that in one of the threads someone whose name I can't recall said that the original owner of White Dove sold the business to someone or another. THIS IS NOT TRUE!!! The person who owns it now is the exact same person who owned it before.....just a different name.


And I also see that Whitedgoldenretrievers has an advertisement on this forum website.................Whitedgoldenretrievers is White Dove Golden Retrievers.

I just needed to vent! Thanks for listening and I hope I spared someone the same heartache.

Sandy


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

So sorry for all you have been through. Best wishes for your pup in the future.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Sorry to hear about your pup 
Some of life's lessons are learned through the school of hard knocks.


I don't think the Site Administrator has any control over which ads Google decides to run so long as they are dog related. :uhoh:


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I am so sorry you are going through this. Try not to beat yourself up about your selection...... there is much truth in the old adage live and learn. Unfortunately this is one of those painful ones to learn from. However, by sharing your experience perhaps someone else will avoid making those same mistakes. I'm sending warm thoughts and prayers that you have much more quality time with your boy.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Joe can stop an ad on here. I saw it on here and will let him know. 

I am so sorry you have gone thru so much with your dog. Cherish what time you have with him. Please know that you have given a great home when someone else might have dumped him or the breeder might have put him down. I know it is hard but we are here for you and would not judge you when so many of us have done the same thing ourselves. You are educated now and can educate others at what to do and you can do it in honor of your pup. 
Good luck!!!!


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

Ditto from here. I'm hoping the prognosis is better than you fear and there is some way they can help. I bought a pet store dog (my heart dog) and with every aliment I have just hoped it will be fixable. Good luck.


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm so sorry for you and your pup. I hope he gets better and you have more good time together. You're right - 3 years is way too soon.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

My heart aches for you and your poor pup. I too have have learned from choices we made. Would I go back and not have had the love of that dog? NO WAY!!! 

But I have learned so much about breeders etc here on GRF!!!


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Thank you everyone. I am waiting for word from UC Davis re the test results from this morning. I am also STILL waiting for the AT&T repair person and the freezer repair person.....whose not timely appearance is at least keeping me good and mad at them......taking my mind off (a little bit anyway) what is going on. Thanks again to everyone!

Sandy


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

The ad should be taken off very soon. Anytime anyone sees an ad on here that is offensive or puppy miller let Joe know. He can remove them.

Edit: The ad has been removed. No advertising for them here.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Sandy, I'm very sorry that someone in your area didn't educate you about White Dove. A member who posts infrequently here used to do golden rescue in the central valley and of course knows all about White Dove. She says all of the vets in the region are horrified at the inherited diseases these dogs come with, and often White Dove dogs are in local shelters because their owners can't afford the horrible medical bills that their young dogs incur. These people should be in jail, or at the very least, someone should take out an ad in your area newspaper asking for all owners of White Dove dogs with medical problems to contact you and see if you can get a class action lawsuit going. It would be worth it if you could get them SHUT DOWN!!!!


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Carol, please do see if you can get Joe to remove the ad for them. By any other name, they are a puppy mill and don't care one whit about the fate of their ill-bred puppies.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I am so sorry to hear your dog and you are going through this. And don't beat yourself up. I will keep you both in my thoughts.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I am so sorry you are going throught this. My heart goes out to both of you. 

I did the same thing when I got my Shadow. I ignored all the warning signs and "I knew" I shouldn't have ignored one very important one. Shadow is healthier than your pup, but he did need two surgeries before his first birthday. He does have a lot of allergies too, but he is pretty healthy otherwise.

People may ask why I didn't follow my instincts. Well, I had just lost my Mom who was my best friend, then 6 months later my Cocker Spaniel. Sparky was with us for 17 years. I was so lost without a dog in our home and cried over my Mom every day. 
I contacted many reputable breeders, even the puppy referral person from the GRCA, but at the time no GR's were available and I didn't want to ship a dog to CT from another state. When we got to the breeders home, it was a 2.5 hour ride each way, Shadow chose us. My husband said, "We have to take this one. He's been at my feet the whole time and won't leave my side." So, Shadow came home with us. 

As expensive and financially difficult as his first year was, I truly believe he was sent to us for a reason. I was so focused on Shadow's needs that I forgot about some of my own woes. I was having health issues at the time, too. I forgot about me and focused on him. I sometimes think he would not be here today had someone else brought him home. There was no way I would return him to the breeder because I really don't think he'd be alive today.

Think about what was going on in your life at the time you found your pup. _Think about the good years your pup has had because of you. _It's heartbreaking to go through what you are going through now. I am so sorry, but try to remember where your pup would be without you...


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

UC Davis called a bit ago and to let me know my boy is doing okay. They performed neuro testing from 8:30 a.m. til 4:30 p.m and can tell me that tests were abnormal but cannot give me a diagnosis as of yet...have to wait for biopsy results. I don't know that I would have put him through all of that had I known that it would mean almost 8 hours of testing while under a general. But, afterall it is a teaching hospital and hopefully all the information will help someone else. 

And yes Kimm I had alot going on when I found him. I had just lost my dad and about a year earlier I had to put my 14 year old golden down. I waited for that longest year and even though the signs were there.....and you know the rest.

I wrote the breeder a not very nice e-mail and they e-mailed back telling me that he must have had distemper......but they also said that if it is genetic they would GIVE me another puppy...............they have plenty. Hmmm, think I will pass on that....can't take anymore heartbreak....no point in asking for it.

Again, thank you everyone for your prayers and support.

Sandy


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

Should have, could have and so on never come into play when someone is facing what you are. Just know that all of us here will say a prayer for you & her. There is no right or wrong when allowing yourself to love~nor will there ever be. There is not a one of us that wouldn't take out a 2nd mortgage on our homes if it meant our golden lifeguides could be healthy & happy. The money was not, is not, nor ever will be "blown" - because it allowed you to have that special feeling in your soul that she gives you. Special prayers and thoughts for you and her from all of my pack.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

sharlin said:


> Should have, could have and so on never come into play when someone is facing what you are. Just know that all of us here will say a prayer for you & her. There is no right or wrong when allowing yourself to love~nor will there ever be. There is not a one of us that wouldn't take out a 2nd mortgage on our homes if it meant our golden lifeguides could be healthy & happy. The money was not, is not, nor ever will be "blown" - because it allowed you to have that special feeling in your soul that she gives you. Special prayers and thoughts for you and her from all of my pack.


Nicely put Steve!


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Yeah, shouda, coulda......seems my shrink of years ago told me that THAT never did one bit of good! And I too would take out a second mortgage........and people like ALL of you are the only ones in the world who understand one's love for a dog. 

Thank you all again so very much!


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## Celeigh (Nov 29, 2007)

I'm so sorry. I have seen their site before and they do make it look idyllic, until you look a little closer and start to see the signs once you know what the red flags are. Your poor baby! Please give him lots of love and kisses from us all when he gets home. I hope he feels better soon.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

I am so sorry for what you and your boy are going through! You sound like a wonderful loving dog mom! At least you can hopefully educate with your experience!


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Hi All

Just returned from UC Davis picking up my boy, Duncan....he seems to be feeling VERY good and is glad to be home. After all the testing yesterday, they didn't really have a definitive answer for me......other than neuro-muscular disease or diseases. They seem to think possibly a mitochondrial disease or multiple diseases. They sent a biopsy to the lab and should know next week or so. Needless to say, even not knowing the exact disease, the prognosis is not good. But the neurologist did say that sometimes the disease is not fast moving ..... they merely become "funny looking" and very uncoordinated. So, I can at least hope for time. 

After talking to the neurologist I believe any other 'testing' etc. (MRI) would really merely be research and teaching ..... she did say that the hospital would help with the cost through a grant, but I don't know if I want to put him through anything more. But on the other hand I would like to help with the needed research....will cross that bridge..............

Sandy


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

sharlin said:


> Should have, could have and so on never come into play when someone is facing what you are. Just know that all of us here will say a prayer for you & her. There is no right or wrong when allowing yourself to love~nor will there ever be. There is not a one of us that wouldn't take out a 2nd mortgage on our homes if it meant our golden lifeguides could be healthy & happy. The money was not, is not, nor ever will be "blown" - because it allowed you to have that special feeling in your soul that she gives you. Special prayers and thoughts for you and her from all of my pack.


Great post. Amen.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

sandyhp said:


> Hi All
> 
> Just returned from UC Davis picking up my boy, Duncan....he seems to be feeling VERY good and is glad to be home. After all the testing yesterday, they didn't really have a definitive answer for me......other than neuro-muscular disease or diseases. They seem to think possibly a mitochondrial disease or multiple diseases. They sent a biopsy to the lab and should know next week or so. Needless to say, even not knowing the exact disease, the prognosis is not good. But the neurologist did say that sometimes the disease is not fast moving ..... they merely become "funny looking" and very uncoordinated. So, I can at least hope for time.
> 
> ...


So sorry about your puppy. If it is a slow moving neuro disease, perhaps there is a medication that could tone down the symptoms. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Good luck and hopefully it will be a slow moving neuro disease. Sounds like it is a great hospital for animals. Please keep us updated. And if you need to rant, cry or just chat, we are here for you.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Sandy, I'm very sorry that you got such a lousy prognosis for Duncan. No matter how long we have these precious souls, each and every day with them is a gift. Hus to you and your boy.....


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## slkuta (Feb 14, 2009)

I'm routing for you and your dog, how heartbreaking! This is a good warning about the breeder. Hopefully the test will come back with something curable.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

So sorry to hear about your pup. 
Why don't you share your specific experience about the "all the signs" you ignored from the breeder so others don't make the same mistake?

allen


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm so sorry about your boys' health problems. Sometimes the dogs defy the prognosis, I hope that is the case with Duncan. They teach us so much about living life fully in every moment.

By the way, we love pictures, if you would like to post some.


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

I'm so sorry to hear about this and thanks for the heads-up on WhiteDove!..I did some of the same mistakes as you but got lucky!.So much so,that I could do that same mistake again cos she is so wonderful and healthy!.Will keep you both in my prayers!.


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

What Sandy has forgotten to mention in her statement was that we offered to give her another puppy and when she refused, we offered to pay for Duncan's eye surgery and she said "No thanks!". She was so happy with her dog that she sent us numerous pictures to post on our website AND BOUGHT ONE MORE DOG from us. When she wrote us about the seizures and we suggested that she would take the dogs to the vet and check for Distemper since there was a brand new strain going around. This was long after she bought the dogs from us. We are sorry that Sandy has a dog that is not well and IF indeed there is something wrong with her pup genetically we offered her a new puppy. This was offered before we even read this offensive posting. And yes it is the same kennel with a new owner since 2004 and a brand new website since I do not know how to use ftp and we can not use the same web address for 2 different sites. As you can see ALL the pictures are the same! I would greatly appreciate all the ladies on this forum to look into their hearts and question their motives here. My wife always says "What the mouth speaks the heart is full of" . She has put up with your nasty remarks for a long time and fought hard to do the best she could. If it wasn't for her the English Goldens would not been popular in the US. Now you tangle with me and I can tell you that I am not going to put up with any of the nonsense she did! Any questions? No I didn't think so because you have nothing better to do in your life then sit and nit pick at people and their hard work. Get a life!
Kevin Carais
OWNER
WHITE DOVE RANCH


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

Oh and Sandy........DO CHECK FOR DISTEMPER! It is exactly as you describe his symptoms after a long time of having the disease. There will be no mucus from the eyes etc if he has had it for a long time but they do get neurological problems and stumble around and get seizures We have told you 4 times now so we hope you follow up on it. 
Hope your pups feels better soon!
Kevin Carais
OWNER
WHITE DOVE RANCH


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I went through medical issues with my Shadow (he is not one of your pups) and would never consider giving him back to the breeder for all of the money in the world. 

It was kind of you to offer to pay for the eye surgery, but replacing a pup for some of us is just too difficult no matter what the issue or the expense is. I am lucky that after spending over 6k in our Shadow's first year of life that our Shadow is pretty healthy. He does have a lot of allergies, but we can live with that. 

Not everyone here is female. I am, but we do have male forum members, too.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> If it wasn't for her the English Goldens would not been popular in the US. Now you tangle with me and I can tell you that I am not going to put up with any of the nonsense she did! Any questions? No I didn't think so because you have nothing better to do in your life then sit and nit pick at people and their hard work. Get a life!
> Kevin Carais
> OWNER
> WHITE DOVE RANCH


Welcome to the forum :wavey:
I read in another post that your wife is ill. I am very sorry to hear this and wish her a speedy and complete recovery.

?????? English Goldens would not be popular if not for her???? Please give me a break!!! :doh:
And all of us here have a life but we care deeply about the future of this wonderful breed and those that are nothing more than money hungry low lifes looking to take advantage of a uneducated puppy seeking person. And if we can help steer these people away from such scum and to a "reputable breeder" we will. 
You might want to consider a page on your website dedicated to educating the public about the health probelms that are found in Goldens and the screenings that you do to do your best to try and eliminate them. Come on Kevin, join us and be one of us. :wave:
As for putting up with nonsense well you will find that every where in life.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Looks like I have started a big p***ing match here......to which I will reply later on this evening.......Because I DO HAVE A LIFE and part of that life right at this very moment is to go out and pick up dog poop. 

But I guess I will say 'bring it on Kevin..........................'

Sandy


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## jlc's mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Breeders offering a new pup don't understand that you have a bond already with your ill pup. How can you replace that loved one with a new one. Okay, lets just exchange for a new one and everything will be fine. NOT! Yes, it's a nice jesture but come on no real dog person would go for that. They would try and fix the illness and if they couldn't they would stay with them and make them comfortable till the end. Sandy, I wish you the best of luck with your dog.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

I completely agree with Hank!!! The Overseas type goldens have been around in this country long before the White Dove name and will hopefully redeem the syle long after the White Dove name! 

Please don't flatter yourself, many of the reputable breeders of this type of golden are extremely dissapointed in the "Rare Cream" advertising. Not only do they hate the false statements, but would prefer to sell their pups as GOLDEN RETRIEVERS and nothing else. You do realize that is what you started breeding with right? That is before your type tried to turn them into something else.

Don't for one second sit there and try and feed me your load about your kennel. I too don't put up with the nonsense of defensive, less then reputable breeders!! Until you can prove me otherwise I won't change my belief about the White Dove Name.


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## Sqwumpkin (Jan 28, 2009)

Oh great. Now the usual crowd has resorted to name calling. *Hey mods -- time to ban Doolin and Ambika for two weeks like you did me! We all know name calling is NOT TOLERATED. NOT ONE MINUTE.*

Kevin never claimed to ask for the puppy BACK. He offered another puppy. Stop putting non existent words in his mouth.

Secondly, as expected, there are two sides to this story. It seems the OP left some very important details out. She BOUGHT A SECOND PUPPY FROM THE SAME BREEDER??? Does that not say everything??? 

Now that I know more of the story... and that a virus is going around their area, it would seem to any rational person that the purpose of the OP was to purposely slander a breeder. Sadly, there are some here who are all to willing to jump on the bandwagon... Oh, and don't forget, they just happen to sell Golden puppies too... so no self serving motivations, there... no, not at all.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

Amazing how they stick together!!!!


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

WHOA.....since I started all of this I wish to make some things clear. I purchased Duncan at 8 weeks of age. At about 4, 5 or 6 months, don't know for sure (doesn't matter) his eyes started watering and I took him the opthamologist who told me that he had entropion. I was upset to say the least simply because I had purchased a "show quality" puppy and had considered MAYBE breeding him. So the entropion took care of that. I wrote White Dove and told them. It was at THIS time that Mimmi told me to *bring him back* and they would give me another puppy. Well, the bond was already there.....I couldn't do that. I told her no, I don't want another puppy. She offered to pay for the surgery or put that amount against another puppy. I said to just give me credit or something on another puppy (not replacement puppy, a playmate for Duncan). 

I did indeed buy another puppy from White Dove. A half sister to Duncan. Wasn't I worried because of the eye problem with Duncan? Well, yes....but thought THAT can't happen twice. Plus, different fathers. So I bought Schatzi.....who is also a wonderful dog. Completely the opposite from Duncan but now I think I know why. But, Schatzi has a head tremor. So far that is the ONLY indication of a neurological problem....and just hope it remains that way. 

I will finish this later.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

My passion for the betterment of this breed could definitely set off a very dormant temper in me. You see sqcummy I don't sell pups for profit, therefore I am in no competition with you or White Dove. So to insinuate that I have self-serving intentions from my post, you are very mistaken. My interests lie in the betterment of the breed. If that involves trying to run those, who exploit the breed off and out of the breed, then I do not care if I offend some people. And please, comparing my post with your rants are just ridiculous. Please go back into hiding and using your "one thing" to find a puppy, I don't have time to humor you. This will be all I have to say on this subject.

To the OP sorry your thread has turned into this. I am very sorry you have had to deal with the genetics defects your puppy is suffering through. I wish him and you the best of Luck with everything.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Oh and Sandy........DO CHECK FOR DISTEMPER! It is exactly as you describe his symptoms after a long time of having the disease. There will be no mucus from the eyes etc if he has had it for a long time but they do get neurological problems and stumble around and get seizures We have told you 4 times now so we hope you follow up on it.
> Hope your pups feels better soon!
> Kevin Carais
> OWNER
> WHITE DOVE RANCH


Kevin,

I haven't looked at your website nor your facilities, so understand this is a generic response.

The GRCA (Golden Retriever Club of America) Adopted a Code of Ethics more than a decade ago. Breeders either conform to them or they don't. 
http://www.grca.org/pdf/all_about/codeofethics.pdf

In addition, the GRCA has position statements regarding Doodles or specific coloring. http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_doodle-white.html#white


Public Education has been the focus over the last ten years by the AKC and the GRCA. If you're playing by the rules and standards of ethical practice that the GRCA and AKC have been teaching, then more power to you. However, if you're cutting corners or treading on the edges of ethical behavior, expect to be crucified here.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sqwumpkin said:


> Oh great. Now the usual crowd has resorted to name calling. *Hey mods -- time to ban Doolin and Ambika for two weeks like you did me! We all know name calling is NOT TOLERATED. NOT ONE MINUTE.*


 
??????
Would you please enlighten me where in my post you read me calling Kevin anything? 





Sqwumpkin said:


> Sadly, there are some here who are all to willing to jump on the bandwagon... Oh, and don't forget, they just happen to sell Golden puppies too... so no self serving motivations, there... no, not at all.


Again ????????
Are you implying that I have self serving motivations? What could they possibly be, other than my love for the breed and my unwillingness to let unscrupulous breeders take advantage of those who come here asking for help and guidance? Do you think of me as a "breeder" in the same context as "White Dove"? Hard to support my family on two litters in my LIFETIME! 

As usual all you are interested in is starting controversy where none exists prior.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Like my wife always said "What the heart is full of the mouth speaks"
> Kevin Carais
> OWNER
> WHITE DOVE RANCH


From your website: "A seasoned breeder take all traits into consideration when breeding a Golden. Ask the breeder about their involvement in showing Goldens. If they have no Championships or AKC ribbons, chances are they do NOT know what they are breeding."

So what does this make you? You have ONE champion - that the previous owner finished. Where are all of the other Championships? AKC ribbons don't mean squat if there wasn't any competition on that day. There are over 100 White Dove dogs listed on the k9data website and only 1 has any sort of title and it's an entry level Rally Novice title at that.

Oh, btw, http://www.whiteduckgoldenretrievers.com - funny how their website looks awfully similar to yours - they even have YOUR dogs listed. How is that possible?? 

Oh, no...another one - http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com/


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I'd be curious what Puppysnuggles has to say about the photo of the bitch nursing her pups on the White Dove website - http://whitedoveranch.com/ourdogs.htm (scroll down about 3/4 of the way). That swollen, engorged, red utter looks awfully painful and uncomfortable to me. I might not have experience with show dogs, but I do have a lot of experience with puppies - whether from my fox hunt's hounds, friends breeding field labs, finding pregnant strays, etc. and I've never seen anything like that in my life. Breeders, if this is normal for a golden please correct me. 

Also, I have wondered what context White Dove was profiled on Animal Planet and in Martha Stewart Living. In my personal experience with Martha Stewart Living they tend to really care about portraying only reputable animal breeders, but perhaps this has changed since I delt with them.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Sometimes things get crazy. Sandy, I was going to get another puppy from Shadow's breeder and had sent her a payment for a pup that she needed to return to me. She did thankfully. That returned check was put toward's Shadow's emergency FHO. Shadow had thrown his hip out a day or two after I mailed the check. 

I'm not going to trash talk anyone here, but there are reasons people do what they do at certain times in their lives. We also don't always know what the future will bring when we are making decisions. 

Maybe this is a Golden opportunity for everyone involved and reputations will be cleared and lessons will be learned to create a better and brighter future for breeders, owners, and the pups we all love so much.

Yes folks, I'm in a mushy mood lately.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Whoa!!!! What is this crazy talk!!! If anyone banned Hank from ANYTHING having to do with goldens, the earth would stop spinning and the cartesian plane tilting. He rarely, rarely breeds( sadly, for the rest of us) and gets super-involved with health clinics, trains his own dogs to incredibly high levels, and helps pests like me educate themselves. Of all the people to target, this choice is so outrageous that it's funny. Ambika should get a _salary_ for all the common sense and help he gives around here, not banned. 

Likewise, Doolin takes time to answer soooooooooo many oft-repeated questions about English-decended goldens, and refers people to other good breeders constantly. He didnt request that job, but he steps up so patiently to help others and fields many a PM from novices with graciousness and care for goldens. It would be hard to get a Doolin puppy! It's the opposite of a puppy mill. I've witnessed a few members trying to score a Doolin pup bc he is so well-respected by other breeders/peers, but they were kindly given a list of other suggestions. 

These are two of the least likely people to be banned or mentioned in a puppy mill thread - so unlikely that it's funny.


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## peeps (Sep 12, 2007)

Oh, btw, http://www.whiteduckgoldenretrievers.com - funny how their website looks awfully similar to yours - they even have YOUR dogs listed. How is that possible?? 

Oh, no...another one - http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com/
[/quote]
That is absolutely disgusting, my stomache is turning. These sad excuses for "breeders" <-the term should not even apply to them and I bet even regular old puppy millers are embarrassed to be associated with these clowns - need to really be put out iof business. I hope the fact they have numerous websites up and running so they can sell even larger numbers of puppies gets out into the public and something can be done. WOW


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## peeps (Sep 12, 2007)

bleck - sorry just had to add that.


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

I think they have another website that hasn't been posted yet. I'll check when I get home, but I remember having one with these same pictures and a different name bookmarked on my personal computer.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Sometimes you can teach an old dog new tricks! Teach...teach...teach while you have a person's attention. I've seen it happen folks. It wasn't on this forum, but on another.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Sandy , Sorry you are going through this. Your dog is very lucky to have a owner who can afford his surgery and on going care. There are a lot of people out there who couldnt and then the rescues step in and clean up the mess these type breeders make.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

MillysMom, the other one that I know of is http://whitedgoldenretrievers.com/ - White Dove without the ove...


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## jlc's mom (Dec 21, 2007)

ragtym said:


> MillysMom, the other one that I know of is http://whitedgoldenretrievers.com/ - White Dove without the ove...


 
Wow, they even put there puppies on sale There is no emotion in the selling of these pups. You pick a pup, add to your shopping cart and then check out. how sick!


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Sqwumpkin said:


> Oh great. Now the usual crowd has resorted to name calling. *Hey mods -- time to ban Doolin and Ambika for two weeks like you did me!
> *


*

Haha I just read this and as a JUNIOR HANDLER, I can see you guys are being really immature. Please stop all the nonsense. I don't think it's a game about how to get back at someone. And seriously, I don't care who calls who what, but it will get reported if it doesn't stop.*


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> ??????
> Would you please enlighten me where in my post you read me calling Kevin anything?
> 
> 
> ...


Well said!!! :appl::appl::appl::appl:


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I read this thread a little differently. First the OP, because she was venting and upset did not put all the facts on the table. That is human nature and not done maliciously in my opinion, but to me those facts matter. 

It seems to me that this breeder did try to work with the buyer, giving her options and even offering to pay for the eye surgery when the buyer didn't want to give up her puppy. And I don't think that arrangement was in the contract.

I realize that none of that is of importance to some that consider high-volume breeding, making a profit and marketing color the ultimate sin...but if I was going to pay the big bucks, the type of response this breeder gave is what I would expect....

I don't see the point of demonizing breeders.....I think its good to have an opinon and its fine to be passionate, but there are millions of people out there who depend on the profiting breeders because the non-profiting breeders aren't giving them what they want. 

The non-profiting breeders won't advertise (which helps educate people by the way). The non-profiting breeders have their puppies sold before they are born. And they only breed one or two litters a year. Commonsense says its ridiculous to assume that non-profiting, "reputable" breeders are the only option available. 

Jmho


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

I am not quite sure where to start this.......you guys are all over the place. Maybe first I should say that yes, I was venting and I was upset. And I will probably vent more and be more upset down the road. In my post yesterday evening I talked about the eye surgery, etc. and that I had purchased another puppy from White Dove. Would I have purchased another puppy if Duncan had already had seizures? No, of course not. I don't know that entropion is a REALLY big deal IF the dog is not used for breeding and IF the surgery is done. But seizures? Yep, seizures are a very big deal. I also didn't mention Schatzi because she also has some type of neurological "tic" but I have always contributed that to the outbreak of distemper. So, there was no point in mentioning that either.

Did I trash White Dove? Yes, I guess I did....and I do feel bad simply because Mimmi is sick. And intellectually I KNOW that they had NO control over the neuro-muscular disease or diseases that Duncan has. It is very rare....my vet has never seen it in his 30 years of practice. But it is genetic.......that said, why is Kevin insisting it is not.....to the point of calling the neurologist and insisting that it is post distemper symptoms. I have had Duncan since he was 8 weeks and I KNOW he did not have distemper. Kevin isn't looking at the big picture. 

Duncan has a genetic disease....recessive gene....passed on maternally. So, lets see. His mother has had 3 litters including his. I neutered Duncan the minute I found out about his eyes...but what if none of the other puppies are neutered and they are bred? I am not an expert in genetics....don't claim to be ....but how many of those puppies are carriers of this disease? 

And yes, Maggies mom, I am lucky I could afford the testing.......or maybe it should be said that I have a VISA to put the cost on. 

And Kevin, I believe I said what a wonderful dog Duncan is .....unfortunately he is not healthy .... and a lot of heartache is on the horizon. 

This is probably WAY too long......................................


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## MillysMom (Nov 5, 2008)

Sandy, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It must be very hard, but I am glad you're sharing your story with us and educating us. I'd love to learn more about this genetic neurological problem if you're willing to share.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

MillysMom said:


> Sandy, I'm so sorry you're going through this. It must be very hard, but I am glad you're sharing your story with us and educating us. I'd love to learn more about this genetic neurological problem if you're willing to share.


Yes, it is very hard....but the forum is a big help. No problem sharing. I can e-mail you a copy of the first report from the neurologist and then send you whatever else I receive. There isn't much on it.....it is THAT rare. Let me know how to get the report to you.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> I realize that none of that is of importance to some that consider high-volume breeding, making a profit and marketing color the ultimate sin...


 
NO that is NOT the ultimate sin. The ULTIMATE SIN is breeding JUST for profit, without concern for the breed. That would include breeding of dogs without the normal health clearances. The UTIMATE SIN is doing this because you KNOW you can get over on the unknowing puppy person.




Lucky's mom said:


> I don't see the point of demonizing breeders.....I think its good to have an opinon and its fine to be passionate, but there are millions of people out there who depend on the profiting breeders because the non-profiting breeders aren't giving them what they want.


Breeders demonize themselves but their actions. And I am PROUD of my passion in my beliefs and I do NOT think it is a good thing that these profit motivated high volume are available to give again the unknowing person what they "THINK" they want. Just ask the OP. 




Lucky's mom said:


> The non-profiting breeders won't advertise (which helps educate people by the way). The non-profiting breeders have their puppies sold before they are born. And they only breed one or two litters a year. Commonsense says its ridiculous to assume that non-profiting, "reputable" breeders are the only option available. Jmho


I think you are confusing terms here. non-profit does not make a breeder responsible. Being responsible in your breeding habits can quite often make breeding non-profit but there are also irresponsible breeders who do not make a profit. 
Why don't responsible breeders advertise in general? Because they do not need to. These folks are involved in showing and competeing with their dogs. There are many who thus know them and their dogs and are anxious to get a pup from them. But then again these folks DO advertise, because again most are involved with local and national dog clubs, pay dues to these clubs who in turn do a tremendous amount of advertising AND EDUCATING. Show me somewhere in any of the White Dove, Duck, D websites that these people do any advertising.
And it is a shame that many of us get educated AFTER we make our mistake. Rarely does the person who makes the mistake make it a second time. Most learn to look, ask AND to be PATIENT so we get the next one from a responsible breeder. 
Commonsense may say its ridiculous to assume that non-profiting, "reputable" breeders are the only option available, but commonsense say says it is the only option that truly makes sense.

As usual the above is just the opinion of this man, nothing more, nothing less.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> . . .
> And it is a shame that many of us get educated AFTER we make our mistake. Rarely does the person who makes the mistake make it a second time. Most learn to look, ask AND to be PATIENT so we get the next one from a responsible breeder.
> Commonsense may say its ridiculous to assume that non-profiting, "reputable" breeders are the only option available, but commonsense say says it is the only option that truly makes sense.
> 
> As usual the above is just the opinion of this man, nothing more, nothing less.


And some of us have to learn the hard way. :doh:


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

AmbikaGR said:


> NO that is NOT the ultimate sin. The ULTIMATE SIN is breeding JUST for profit, without concern for the breed. That would include breeding of dogs without the normal health clearances. The UTIMATE SIN is doing this because you KNOW you can get over on the unknowing puppy person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that if there were no for-profits then people would be doing many years of waiting. Kids would be grown and the greys hairs would come...literally...if there were no for-profits fullfilling a need. With that in mind my point is that they aren't going away.

I was looking at a puppy buying website (something I do when I should be doing dishes) and noticed many "English-Creme" retreiver puppies being sold via internet. The breeders have no reputation to impune, and I doubt they would be in touch if one of their puppies came down with a problem. Yet they sell puppies and they could care less what our forum says about them. 

The breeders that care about a reputation are the ones we demonize. Apparently these are the ones that offer a guarentee and get back with the buyer to try and resolve a problem. The breeders with classified ads and no reputation to hurt and no credibility to start with are benefiting when a well-known high volume breeder is hurt.

I'm not saying that these high-volume for-profits are a good choice. But I appreciate a business that at least CARES enough about their reputation to try to resolve a problem. And we can influence those breeders rather then spit on them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sqwumpkin said:


> Oh great. Now the usual crowd has resorted to name calling. *Hey mods -- time to ban Doolin and Ambika for two weeks like you did me! We all know name calling is NOT TOLERATED. NOT ONE MINUTE.*
> 
> Kevin never claimed to ask for the puppy BACK. He offered another puppy. Stop putting non existent words in his mouth.
> 
> ...


Patrick, geeze - do the math:



* + Sqwumpkin (Patrick) *
* ____________________ *












You REALLY need to get outta Bitterville, man. 
Hey, since you are all about people learning the TRUTH about breeders before "bashing" them, I asked you a bunch of really good questions, but you never answered them...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> NO that is NOT the ultimate sin. The ULTIMATE SIN is breeding JUST for profit, without concern for the breed. That would include breeding of dogs without the normal health clearances. The UTIMATE SIN is doing this because you KNOW you can get over on the unknowing puppy person.


 
The ULTIMATE sin is _continuing to breed dogs with known health issues, or who are known to produce health issues._

And when you look at the huge numbers of White Dove dogs, and dogs from similar "breeders", that are sold and then bred indiscriminately (and you see lots of White Dove in the pedigrees of SO many RareWhiteGoldensRUs type breeders (most who do NOT do any clearances but rather market the color), the perpetuation of genetic problems becomes even widespread. Very detrimental for the breed as a whole.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com/olderfreedogsrescue.htm

Now this page is what gets me the most. Good Gawd makes me physically sick. These uterus users should be ashamed of themselves. My gawd how do you people sleep at night????? When they say rescue they mean rescue. I hope these dogs got some homes they deserve.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Sqwumpkin*  
_
Secondly, as expected, there are two sides to this story. It seems the OP left some very important details out. She BOUGHT A SECOND PUPPY FROM THE SAME BREEDER??? Does that not say everything??? 

Now that I know more of the story... and that a virus is going around their area, it would seem to any rational person that the purpose of the OP was to purposely slander a breeder. Sadly, there are some here who are all to willing to jump on the bandwagon... Oh, and don't forget, they just happen to sell Golden puppies too... so no self serving motivations, there... no, not at all._


I did not catch the entire statement above. I have already talked about my second puppy and how she has a head wobble/tremor that I am attributing to the distemper virus that went rampant at their kennel. Did not mention second puppy because I did not think it was relevant to Duncan's disease.

What I did not catch was "Now that I know more of the story... and that a virus is going around their area, it would seem to any rational person that the purpose of the OP was to purposely slander a breeder" No my purpose was NOT to slander the breeder.......I was venting and I am upset that my WONDERFUL 3 year old golden is sick with a disease that is uncurable and untreatable. AND the virus that was (past tense) going around their area occurred long after Duncan left that area and it is 100 miles from his home now.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Ash said:


> http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com/olderfreedogsrescue.htm
> 
> Now this page is what gets me the most. Good Gawd makes me physically sick. These uterus users should be ashamed of themselves. My gawd how do you people sleep at night????? When they say rescue they mean rescue. I hope these dogs got some homes they deserve.


Ash, I agree. It's just disgusting.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I
> I realize that none of that is of importance to some that consider high-volume breeding, making a profit and marketing color the ultimate sin...but if I was going to pay the big bucks, the type of response this breeder gave is what I would expect....
> 
> I don't see the point of demonizing breeders.....I think its good to have an opinon and its fine to be passionate, but there are millions of people out there who depend on the profiting breeders because the non-profiting breeders aren't giving them what they want.
> Jmho


Does anyone "want" a sick puppy or one with hip/elbow dysplasia who will die at age two, require 3,000 dollar surgery, experience sudden death syndrome from cardiac SAS, go blind, or have a lifetime of seizures? Why do you think puppy lemon laws exist? Proper health clearances, in many of these cases, are statistically very preventitive. It is cruel to the unborn puppies and the humans who will try to love and raise them, not to do these genetic tests. Health clearances are not 100%, but they have a very significant predictive ability and help the odds. If you can help the odds of 5,000 golden puppies you breed for a profit, but you choose not to, you are a puppy mill. Just my opinion.. .

Responsible high volume breeders may make a profit, but they do these tests. Many high volume breeders do show/compete with their dogs as quailty control

Puppy mills may market themselves like high volume breeders, but they do not health test or do so in a spotty fashion. Puppy millers do nothing with their dogs to keep them on par with their peers in structure and performance. If someone is going to produce 1,000 puppies and sell them for money to live on, they had better make sure those puppies are healthy using every tool & safeguard available for peers to review- if not, those 1,0000 puppies will know pain and disease. If they claim membership in AKC, they should abide by AKC ethics on goldendoodles and marketing by color.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com/olderfreedogsrescue.htm
> 
> Now this page is what gets me the most. Good Gawd makes me physically sick. These uterus users should be ashamed of themselves. My gawd how do you people sleep at night????? When they say rescue they mean rescue. I hope these dogs got some homes they deserve.


Oh Lord. I never got into the site and now I wish I had not seen this.
Yep. Great. Funny that the photos of the "free" (or very expensive "rescue" dogs - more money if you plan to breed 'em) are the same photos that they use for their current "breeders".
And a "huge 90 pound" bitch. Yep, They've sure been working on improving the breed, as they repeatedly state. :yuck:


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Aw, but you probably missed the best one - a dog named Tricky that has a heart murmur and was given away for free...AFTER he had already sired at least ONE litter. His picture is still up - he's Free Dog A 547 on the goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com site.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

ragtym said:


> Aw, but you probably missed the best one - a dog named Tricky that has a heart murmur and was given away for free...AFTER he had already sired at least ONE litter. His picture is still up - he's Free Dog A 547 on the goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com site.


The fact that these dogs have numbers gives me such a warm, fuzzy feeling inside...


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

I noticed the numbers and the free dogs, I am tempted to take one and then use it as an advocate against them.

It's a shame that there is no punishment for being a dirty money grubber...*sigh* makes my blood boil.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> I think that if there were no for-profits then people would be doing many years of waiting. Kids would be grown and the greys hairs would come...literally...if there were no for-profits fullfilling a need. With that in mind my point is that they aren't going away.
> 
> I was looking at a puppy buying website (something I do when I should be doing dishes) and noticed many "English-Creme" retreiver puppies being sold via internet. The breeders have no reputation to impune, and I doubt they would be in touch if one of their puppies came down with a problem. Yet they sell puppies and they could care less what our forum says about them.
> 
> ...


If you are speaking of breeders who make a enough of a profit to support themselves due to volume/pricing BUT who do DO all the proper clearances, screening of potential homes, in some way have there dogs evaluated for temperment and hold to the breed standard then I am okay with that, with some reservation. My one reservation is that it is then a BUSINESS and people will do things in business to increase profits, save their business, that they would NEVER consider doing if it was not a business. 
As for your statement "And we can influence those breeders rather then spit on them". If you go back and reread my original posts on this I never "spit" on this breeder, I most definitely gave them the benefit of the doubt. But now seeing the rest of the posts and evidence of other "kennel names" and going through the OFA and CERF databases for over 15 of the dogs tey have listed as being used for breeding I know longer give that benefit to them. All their posturing is meant to intimidate us from questioning their practices and not defend them.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

ragtym said:


> Aw, but you probably missed the best one - a dog named Tricky that has a heart murmur and was given away for free...AFTER he had already sired at least ONE litter. His picture is still up - he's Free Dog A 547 on the goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com site.


Well lets just hope that the murmur isnt a bad one and that the pups are the same way. Otherwise I feel for the families who have kids, who have gotten one from this breeder.


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

I think there is something that often gets overlooked when it comes to education about our wonderful breed. Yes, clearances and health are important but I see statements like this a lot and it seems that educating the average puppy buyer about breeding (or not breeding) is perhaps not discussed enough.



> I was upset to say the least simply because I had purchased a "show quality" puppy and had considered MAYBE breeding him. So the entropion took care of that.





> Duncan has a genetic disease....recessive gene....passed on maternally. So, lets see. His mother has had 3 litters including his. I neutered Duncan the minute I found out about his eyes...but what if none of the other puppies are neutered and they are bred? I am not an expert in genetics....don't claim to be ....but how many of those puppies are carriers of this disease?


I don't mean any disrespect to the OP. I am so sorry that you have had to learn things the hard way and I truly hope that both of your dogs live long, healthy, and happy lives.

Both breeders that I purchased goldens from use contracts with spay/neuter clauses and sold their pups on limited registrations. It was made very clear to me that [by signing these contracts] I would never consider breeding my dog.

I understand the importance of these clauses. I have learned through sites like this, how much is involved in breeding (emotionally, financially...etc.) and that it should be left to the experts. They are the sentinels for the future of our breed. It's not just about cute puppies.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Angel_Kody said:


> ...
> 
> I don't mean any disrespect to the OP. I am so sorry that you have had to learn things the hard way and I truly hope that both of your dogs live long, healthy, and happy lives.
> 
> ...


I do not feel as though you showed any disrespect towards me. You and the others on this forum do not know me so there is no way you would know that I would NEVER breed a dog unless all clearances were done and I was certain (or as certain as I could be) that there were no KNOWN genetic problems. And after all this I WILL leave the breeding to the experts..........Yes, I know I should have done the genetic research BEFORE I purchased my dogs. But I wouldn't trade them for anything!

I have owned goldens for many years. One I purchased from a backyard breeder many many years ago. He lived to be 17. One I purchased from a small breeder who very carefully breeds and has a waiting list always. She lived to be 17. One I purchased from a well-known breeder who has show dogs, mostly champions and always a waiting list. She lived to be 14. 

I went to the "european" simply because I was misinformed that that line lived longer, no genetic defects, etc., because of a larger gene pool etc. Yes, I should have known, but we have discussed the woulda, shoulda.....

The big 90 lb female on the White Dove/WhiteD/WhiteDuck/etc site that is free is the mother of my two dogs. I am thinking, but have no proof since there is limited research available, that the insatiable appetites of mom, son and daughter might be a symptom of the disease. Just a thought.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

sandyhp said:


> The big 90 lb female on the White Dove/WhiteD/WhiteDuck/etc site that is free is the mother of my two dogs. I am thinking, but have no proof since there is limited research available, that the insatiable appetites of mom, son and daughter might be a symptom of the disease. Just a thought.


Not knowing anything about the breeder other than what is obvious from the multiple websites, I will state in general that dogs who seem prone to getting overweight could easily have heritable thyroid problems. Some major eaters are just major eaters, though.


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Angel_Kody said:


> I think there is something that often gets overlooked when it comes to education about our wonder breed. Yes, clearances and health are important but I see statements like this a lot and it seems that educating the average puppy buyer about breeding (or not breeding) is perhaps not discussed enough.
> 
> I don't mean any disrespect to the OP. I am so sorry that you have had to learn things the hard way and I truly hope that both of your dogs live long, healthy, and happy lives.
> 
> ...



But how do you educate the average puppy buyer? HSUS and PETA seem to be messing that up......

How can people know that there are resources available is they don't bother to look?

Most people (not speaking to the OP) want the instant gratification, rescues take a long time ask billions of questions, breeders can be just as picky, they see a website with "pay now!" and a link to paypal and there you go, done quick and easy. Most people just don't realize all that goes into it.

I want to know how we can better educate people...and effectively because education is the key to ending demand for things like this.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Not knowing anything about the breeder other than what is obvious from the multiple websites, I will state in general that dogs who seem prone to getting overweight could easily have heritable thyroid problems. Some major eaters are just major eaters, though.


I have had the thyroid test(s) done for both dogs..... both are fine. I suppose they could simply be "major eaters", but since mitochondrial diseases are passed on maternally, it was just a thought and certainly NOT something that would be "telltale" of a genetic disorder. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

Afterall, retrievers are pretty well known for their appetite.


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

According to the vet there was NOTHING we could have known about regarding Duncan. We are not GOD that make these dogs, we are only midwives and caretakers. We do the best we can! Unhealthy dogs are NOT bred at our kennel and we don't HAVE TO because we have many dogs to choose from. If one combination does not work and the genetics does not "click" that pair will not be bred again. My wife has bred Goldens for 16 years and we only have a handful of disgruntled customers. Our websites speaks for itself with many postings of happy customers with healthy puppies. 

And thank you to the lady that said she was sorry that my wife is sick. Sometimes all of the rest of you come across like heartless people. 

There is a lot of hard work going into these dogs, long nights watching over the moms and their newborn puppies and making sure all puppies and dogs have the best care possible. You call us greedy yet we spent 95% of the income on the dogs last year. I have to work full time with another business to make ends meet. We are not in it for the money. WE LOVE THE DOGS! Breeding is NOT profitable but it does give joy to people working with it and to the customers that recieve a puppy. 

With words you have destroyed my wife's passion and hard work over 20 some years with only a few seconds of nasty words. What a shame!
Kevin


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

sandyhp said:


> I have had the thyroid test(s) done for both dogs..... both are fine. I suppose they could simply be "major eaters", but since mitochondrial diseases are passed on maternally, it was just a thought and certainly NOT something that would be "telltale" of a genetic disorder. I'm sorry if it came across that way.
> 
> Afterall, retrievers are pretty well known for their appetite.


My Tucker is pretty healthy. He is now 6 years old. He is food obsessed to the point I had to put locks on our food closet!


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Why dont you let us defend ourselves on your forum! Why dont you show our postings! You only show the bad postings not the good This is American and I can defend myself if someone attacks me! I will find out who you are and I will bring other breeders that are getting slammed on this site and we are going to sue you!


Nobody is attacking you, we are attacking your, what seem to be, unethical breeding practices. 

Good luck with attempting to sue.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Why dont you let us defend ourselves on your forum! Why dont you show our postings! You only show the bad postings not the good This is American and I can defend myself if someone attacks me! I will find out who you are and I will bring other breeders that are getting slammed on this site and we are going to sue you!


No one is stopping you from defending yourselves. Go right ahead and do so. And please do invite other breeders here, I can only hope if they are not doing the things that the GRCA and other groups suggest that they will change their ways. 
Lastly your threats of "going to sue" are NOT going to impress or intimidate many of us as we have truth and fact on our side, as well was the well being of this wonderful breed.


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

AcesWild said:


> But how do you educate the average puppy buyer? HSUS and PETA seem to be messing that up......
> 
> How can people know that there are resources available is they don't bother to look?
> 
> ...


 
This is a very good question and I wish I had an answer. I see your point and it is frustrating for sure.

I suppose it is important for those of us who have been educated (even if it was the hard way) to pass it along as often as we can and in any way we can. I think it's part of what makes us responsible pet owners.


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## Angel_Kody (Feb 27, 2007)

sandyhp said:


> I do not feel as though you showed any disrespect towards me. You and the others on this forum do not know me so there is no way you would know that I would NEVER breed a dog unless all clearances were done and I was certain (or as certain as I could be) that there were no KNOWN genetic problems. And after all this I WILL leave the breeding to the experts..........Yes, I know I should have done the genetic research BEFORE I purchased my dogs. But I wouldn't trade them for anything!
> 
> I have owned goldens for many years. One I purchased from a backyard breeder many many years ago. He lived to be 17. One I purchased from a small breeder who very carefully breeds and has a waiting list always. She lived to be 17. One I purchased from a well-known breeder who has show dogs, mostly champions and always a waiting list. She lived to be 14.
> 
> ...


 
Wow! 17 and 14 years? That is wonderful! I had 11 years with my first golden. It is never long enough no matter what.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Why dont you let us defend ourselves on your forum! Why dont you show our postings! You only show the bad postings not the good This is American and I can defend myself if someone attacks me! I will find out who you are and I will bring other breeders that are getting slammed on this site and we are going to sue you!


Are you saying your posts aren't showing up? That's surely a technical issue. I can't imagine any reason the forum administrators would have to block your posts.

And, as a legal point, you can't sue people for saying what they believe to be true. I think we would all welcome refutation of the basic problems brought up with your breeding practices, but you can't sue a public forum or a writer of posts unless you can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they intentionally said something false.

I for one would like an answer to the following questions, which I would ask of any breeder:

Do you get hip, heart, elbow, and eye certifications in all of your breeding dogs before they're bred?
Do you register those certifications with the appropriate agencies?
Have you ever bred a dog with a known genetic problem, and if so, why?
Do you breed dogs who are outside either the American or UK standard for size?
How many litters did your kennel have in 2008?
How do you socialize your litters and engage in their early training?
Are you breeding with the best interest of the dogs and the breed at heart?

If you are unwilling to answer all of those questions, or of the answers don't reflect ethical breeding practices, I don't have a lot of sympathy for you.


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

Regarding the Distemper. Sandy Hill purchased her dogs long before the new deadly strain swept through our area. The vets in our area became "death clinics" as unsuspecting customer brought their puppies in for shots and vet checks. Dog's that had been vaccinated regularly for years died like flies. We have never had Parvo and we had never had Distemper until Jan-March of 2008. SO IF YOU THINK THAT SANDY'S PUP GOT DISTEMPER FROM US YOU ARE WRONG! Let's stick to the facts here!
Kevin


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I for one would like an answer to the following questions, which I would ask of any breeder:
> 
> Do you get hip, heart, elbow, and eye certifications in all of your breeding dogs before they're bred?
> Do you register those certifications with the appropriate agencies?
> ...




 I'm with TippyKayak. I would also like to see the answers to these questions. They are just the tip of the iceberg when searching for a good breeder.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

nixietink said:


> [/LIST]
> I'm with TippyKayak. I would also like to see the answers to these questions. They are just the tip of the iceberg when searching for a good breeder.


Seriously. I'm willing to take the breeder seriously and listen carefully if he says they're being maligned here, but if he's not willing to answer even basic questions about the most fundamental ethics, then, like I said, I just don't have sympathy.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> According to the vet there was NOTHING we could have known about regarding Duncan. We are not GOD that make these dogs, we are only midwives and caretakers. We do the best we can! Unhealthy dogs are NOT bred at our kennel and we don't HAVE TO because we have many dogs to choose from. If one combination does not work and the genetics does not "click" that pair will not be bred again. My wife has bred Goldens for 16 years and we only have a handful of disgruntled customers. Our websites speaks for itself with many postings of happy customers with healthy puppies.


And your vet is correct that there is no way you could have known about regarding Duncan. But to say you do the best you can again I ask this question. What health screenings do you do and at what age do you do them for EVERY dog that you use in your breeding business? To eliminate a pair whose genetics do not "click" is after the fact in my opinion. I was in business dealing with the p-ublic all my life and we had a saying "For every customer that complained there were anoth 99 who did noot voice their complaint."





Puppysnuggles said:


> There is a lot of hard work going into these dogs, long nights watching over the moms and their newborn puppies and making sure all puppies and dogs have the best care possible. You call us greedy yet we spent 95% of the income on the dogs last year. I have to work full time with another business to make ends meet. We are not in it for the money. WE LOVE THE DOGS! Breeding is NOT profitable but it does give joy to people working with it and to the customers that recieve a puppy.


Most responsible breeders work a full time job to make ends meet. But I can not understand how you can say that "we spent 95% of the income on the dogs last year". Not at those prices and the number of litters I see on youor website(s). 








Puppysnuggles said:


> With words you have destroyed my wife's passion and hard work over 20 some years with only a few seconds of nasty words. What a shame!
> Kevin


Well if that is the case and she was not willing to change so that she would conform with what most people in dogs consider the "responsible things" then I am afraid I would say that it is a GOOD thing her passion was destroyed. It is a shame she could not understand where others are/were coming from.



Puppysnuggles said:


> And thank you to the lady that said she was sorry that my wife is sick. Sometimes all of the rest of you come across like heartless people.


Actually that would be I, Hank, who expressed my sorrow that she is ill and wished her a speedy recovery and I still do. We are NOT heartless people, we are a very compassionate and passionate group, really we are.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Regarding the Distemper. Sandy Hill purchased her dogs long before the new deadly strain swept through our area. The vets in our area became "death clinics" as unsuspecting customer brought their puppies in for shots and vet checks. Dog's that had been vaccinated regularly for years died like flies. We have never had Parvo and we had never had Distemper until Jan-March of 2008. SO IF YOU THINK THAT SANDY'S PUP GOT DISTEMPER FROM US YOU ARE WRONG! Let's stick to the facts here!
> Kevin


Am I going crazy here? You are the one who keeps bringing up distemper! *I never said that my dogs contracted distemper from you.* I said that I thought that *maybe* Schatzi had a mild case of it when she was a baby.....thus, the head tremors. But, I was confused on the dates that the distemper virus spread through the Central Coast. Obviously that was not the case.......so her head tremors are probably a neuromuscular disease.............same as Duncan's................ya think?


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

You guys are just blood thirsty hyenas! There is no idea to even try to defend ourselves! Sorry but I have to go back to work now while you sit there and have nothing better to do then be evil. Regarding what we spent on the dogs.......would you like to see my tax return? MY plumbing business lent $45 000 to WDR last year. But that is none of your business is it!
Why don't you go and get your claws and fangs into some backyard breeders that really dont know what they are doing. But see you won't do that because they are not high profile!~
I feel sorry for you all! You'll be in my prayers.
KEVIN


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There are just too many inconsistencies and outright lies being told, not the least that White Dove/White Duck/White D/GoldenRetrieverPuppies4U "in 1993 introduced English Creams to the USA AKC hosted shows". That is pure bunk. As I stated in another post, there have been many others who successfully show English imports in the US - not the least being Anne Bissette of the highly respected Beaumaris Kennels - to American championships as early as the late 60's and early seventies. I myself owned an English import in 1988. He would easily fit what is being touted as a "rare English Cream". 
And there have been far too many purchasers of White Dove, et al, puppies who HAVE experienced terrible health issues with them for them to decry that they have not bred unhealthy dogs, and pedigrees and available databases prove that repeat breedings have been made, even when known that health issues have in fact been produced. But rather than accept responsibility, they have blamed the owners (ie: hip dysplasia is because the owner allowed the dog to become too fat - although they themselves have bred a "huge, 90 pound female" - the mother of sandyhp's dog and now marketed as being for sale (or maybe even free, I cannot remember). So, sorry, there are now far more educated and savvy fanciers who are aware of the operation and who are unequivocably able to disprove the claims, no matter how incensed they portend to be. and there are more than a "handful" of disgruntled customers out there...they'e made their voices known.


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> According to the vet there was NOTHING we could have known about regarding Duncan. We are not GOD that make these dogs, we are only midwives and caretakers. We do the best we can! Unhealthy dogs are NOT bred at our kennel and we don't HAVE TO because we have many dogs to choose from. If one combination does not work and the genetics does not "click" that pair will not be bred again. My wife has bred Goldens for 16 years and we only have a handful of disgruntled customers. Our websites speaks for itself with many postings of happy customers with healthy puppies.
> 
> And thank you to the lady that said she was sorry that my wife is sick. Sometimes all of the rest of you come across like heartless people.
> 
> ...


Kevin - in one of my posts I stated:

_"Did I trash White Dove? Yes, I guess I did....and I do feel bad simply because Mimmi is sick. *And intellectually I KNOW that they had NO control over the neuro-muscular disease or diseases that Duncan has*. It is very rare....my vet has never seen it in his 30 years of practice. But it is genetic.......that said, why is Kevin insisting it is not.....to the point of calling the neurologist and insisting that it is post distemper symptoms. I have had Duncan since he was 8 weeks and I KNOW he did not have distemper. Kevin isn't looking at the big picture. 

Duncan has a genetic disease....recessive gene....passed on maternally. So, lets see. His mother has had 3 litters including his. I neutered Duncan the minute I found out about his eyes...but what if none of the other puppies are neutered and they are bred? I am not an expert in genetics....don't claim to be ....but how many of those puppies are carriers of this disease?"_

Do I need to say more?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> You guys are just blood thirsty hyenas! There is no idea to even try to defend ourselves! Sorry but I have to go back to work now while you sit there and have nothing better to do then be evil. Regarding what we spent on the dogs.......would you like to see my tax return? MY plumbing business lent $45 000 to WDR last year. But that is none of your business is it!
> Why don't you go and get your claws and fangs into some backyard breeders that really dont know what they are doing. But see you won't do that because they are not high profile!~
> I feel sorry for you all! You'll be in my prayers.
> KEVIN


Hi. If you read my post, I think you'll find nothing bloodthirsty, but simply a request that you answer some basic questions about your breeding practices. These are questions I would ask any breeder before purchasing a dog from them. 

In fact, I expressed a wish that some of the assumptions made here about your kennel are incorrect and that your dogs have better lives than it seems. However, you've done nothing to assert your ethics except to complain that negative information about you has appeared on the internet where anybody can read it. Your vitriolic reaction makes it seem like the bulk of the negative information is true and you're simply angry that you can't suppress it.

Your reaction makes me think that you don't do health certifications, that you do breed more litters than you can properly socialize, train, and care for, and that you do not breed ethically. Please set the record straight.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> You guys are just blood thirsty hyenas! There is no idea to even try to defend ourselves! Sorry but I have to go back to work now while you sit there and have nothing better to do then be evil. Regarding what we spent on the dogs.......would you like to see my tax return? MY plumbing business lent $45 000 to WDR last year. But that is none of your business is it!
> Why don't you go and get your claws and fangs into some backyard breeders that really dont know what they are doing. But see you won't do that because they are not high profile!~
> I feel sorry for you all! You'll be in my prayers.
> KEVIN


Huh...I thought we were being very nice!! We just wanted answers to some basic questions, that is all...and still would appreciate them answered. The money profited/not profited is the last of our concerns. We are here for the dogs.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> You guys are just blood thirsty hyenas! There is no idea to even try to defend ourselves! Sorry but I have to go back to work now while you sit there and have nothing better to do then be evil. Regarding what we spent on the dogs.......would you like to see my tax return? MY plumbing business lent $45 000 to WDR last year. But that is none of your business is it!
> Why don't you go and get your claws and fangs into some backyard breeders that really dont know what they are doing. But see you won't do that because they are not high profile!~
> I feel sorry for you all! You'll be in my prayers.
> KEVIN


 
You can spend all the money in the world on your dogs (and for it being none of our business you are happy enough to toss $$$ amounts around) but it makes no difference at all if the dogs are producing health problems. Reputable and responsible breeders have completely _started from square one _with entirely new dogs/new bloodlines when they've experienced lesser problems than are seen in WD dogs. 

If calling people "blood thirsty hyenas" and "evil" helps you to sleep at night, when we are simply passionate about the well being of the dogs, and at the VERY least, maintaining the integrity of the breed (few are presumptous or vain enough to believe that they can _improve _the breed) then go for it. I've been called far worse by the likes of you.


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## gil1075 (Jan 13, 2009)

Well, we'll never hear from them again once they were asked to answer basic questions that any reputable breeder would be happy to answer. These people make one last rude comment and leave.


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

Nope I am still here and you can get the information on www.offa.org for the dogs bred here and www.rasdata.nu since our imported dogs have their health clearances done before they come here. I don't have time to sit around and give a profile on each dog I own.
And being rude........I don't think so! We are being attacked and you are heartless and rude. And for your information 2 other breeders have contacted us that are getting slammed on your forum. We will be watching every posting and we encourage others that are being persecuted by your "click" of Golden Retriever Police squad. Now go searh on puppyfind.com and breeders.com there are plenty of unethical breeders out there that have absolutly no idea of what they are doing. This will be my last posting but I will be watching you with the other breeders. Game over! You WIN!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Aren't the BYB's the ones who keep breeding dogs that they know have heart problems?????


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I look to the GRCA's puppy referral people for guidance.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Nope I am still here and you can get the information on www.offa.org for the dogs bred here and www.rasdata.nu since our imported dogs have their health clearances done before they come here.


I have searched the OFA and CERF databases and this is what I have found. The rasdata.nu website I am not able to navigate due to the language difference but I will try to figure it out at another time. I will denote the dogs that were imported so it will be acknowledged that some clearances may be there (rasdata). the AKC registered number for each dog is in parenthesis.



Skorpan (sn83110402)- Nothing listed other than "Known as a parent"
Vanilla (sr29073806)- Nothing listed
Daniel (sr28690206)- Nothing listed
Cupcake (sn89245502)- Nothing listed other than "Known as a parent"
Purple (sr20458305)- Hip and heart
Pipan (sr28690207) - prelim hip (fair - January 2007)

Now for the imports who may be listed in the rasdata.nu database. 

Max (sr74323701) - Hips only
Poky (sr15345001) - hips only
Kajsa (sn83110402) - Nothing other than "Known as a parent"
Chanelle (sn46548001) - hips only
Ciara (sr22828901) - nothing
Summer (sr22829101) - nothing
Cindy (sn46723101) - hips only
Missy (sr23334801) - nothing
Chloe (sr85873201) - Australian clearance listed on k9data

Kevin this is an honest question but some of your imports are not from Norway it appears. Are those also in rasdata.nu database or elsewhere. Is rasdata.nu a "universal" data base for Europe?







Puppysnuggles said:


> And for your information 2 other breeders have contacted us that are getting slammed on your forum. We will be watching every posting and we encourage others that are being persecuted by your "click" of Golden Retriever Police squad.


Ask those other breeders to come join the forum and join us if they are being "slammed" unjustly and clear their names. And I am not the "Police" because I have no power to enforce our beliefs, but I can and will express them none the less.





Puppysnuggles said:


> I don't have time to sit around and give a profile on each dog I own.


If you are as passionate and serious about this as you are tryinng to say you are you would MAKE the time to do so. And I do not mean here on this forum, I mean on your website. If your dogs have clearances registered with recognized registries why NOT provide links to them on your website(s).


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Hank :heartbeat:You_Rock_

I would have considered these dogs once upon a time and I believe it was a white dove type site that had "puppies on sale" and that was the complete turn off.


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## jlc's mom (Dec 21, 2007)

Sandy, how is Duncan??


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

jessi mom said:


> Sandy, how is Duncan??


Duncan is feeling very good.....he is a little sore from the biopsy and all the needles, etc. but has been playing a little bit with Schatzi and with my daughter's lab puppy. It now makes sense why he tires so easily. The UC Davis neurologist told my veterinarian that he seems to be a happy boy. I guess from now on all one can do is take it "one day at a time".....

Hopefully this will be a slow progressing disease and he will have a happy life .........


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I've been following along but haven't posted. Definitely an interesting read. I'm sorry that the OP's dogs are ill. I hope that their conditions are not terribly life altering. 

To the kennel in question, your posts seem out of sync with some of the questions posed to you. Maybe you are experiencing some problems posting. You might reboot your computer, this helps me when I have trouble posting. It's normally me, not the site.
I think a civil conversation is certainly possible here, especially if you'd like to set the record straight. As a pet owner who loves the Breed, I'd find the topic of breeding practices fascinating and instructive.


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

Sandy,

I hope Duncan continues to do well, and is able to be with you for a long time.


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Ash said:


> http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com/olderfreedogsrescue.htm
> 
> Now this page is what gets me the most. Good Gawd makes me physically sick. These uterus users should be ashamed of themselves. My gawd how do you people sleep at night????? When they say rescue they mean rescue. I hope these dogs got some homes they deserve.


OMG! Ditto to what Ash said. I can't believe my eyes! :no:


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> . WE LOVE THE DOGS! Breeding is NOT profitable but it does give joy to people working with it and to the customers that recieve a puppy.
> 
> With words you have destroyed my wife's passion and hard work over 20 some years with only a few seconds of nasty words. What a shame!
> Kevin


Let me just say that INTENTIONS are certainly not everything. There are plenty of breeders out there that love their dogs and aren't in it "for the money" that I would never consider. Apparently GRCA seems to agree that intentions aren't everything either...


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> You guys are just blood thirsty hyenas! There is no idea to even try to defend ourselves! Sorry but I have to go back to work now while you sit there and have nothing better to do then be evil. Regarding what we spent on the dogs.......would you like to see my tax return? MY plumbing business lent $45 000 to WDR last year. But that is none of your business is it!
> Why don't you go and get your claws and fangs into some backyard breeders that really dont know what they are doing. But see you won't do that because they are not high profile!~
> I feel sorry for you all! You'll be in my prayers.
> KEVIN


Seriously, take a chill pill. :bowl: We, as any other, Golden enthusiasts/breeders/exhibitors are ready at any time to defend the values regarding breeding Golden Retrievers and the breed itself.

I have noticed that you have been beating around the bush. The Distemper thing is loong over. From reading Sandy's early posts, it is over...


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## goldengirls550 (Jun 12, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> . This will be my last posting but I will be watching you with the other breeders.


That's just a TAD creepy! :uhoh:


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Personally, I think their breeding practices are just plain creepy! kevin, you have been asked (nicely, I might add) to address some very basic questions that any reputable breeder would be happy to answer. Apparently, your response to reasonable questions is to attack members of a golden retriever forum who have the audacity to question your care and treatment of these marvelous creatures. Your response speaks for itself, so I for one will continue to tell people to run very far away from your operation if they want a healthy dog.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Some info from Rasdata.nu:

Goldmaster's Chanelle: *http://tinyurl.com/cpxfon*Shows no clearance information for this dog - her sire and dam are rated U.A - equivalent to OFA Good.

Tottelina Orchestra - no listing, nor for his littermate, Tottelina Opera

Dainty's Flying Class - *http://tinyurl.com/cotydk*
Shows no clearance information for this dog - his sire and dam are rated HD UA

Goldenone Star Night - AKA Ludde SR40131101, the sire of several of their current litters: *http://tinyurl.com/cp8d54 - *Shows no clearance information. Sire and Dam are rated A - also equivalent to OFA Good.

Svedjebackens Go For The Gold - AKA Ziggy SR53360101 -also a sire of several of their litters: *http://tinyurl.com/cz62tx -* no clearance information. Sire graded HD B - somewhere in the middle of Fair to Borderline. Dam is also HD B. Ziggy does have an OFA heart clearance.

Rights Agathon (Agaton) - sire of Cookies'n'Cream - *http://tinyurl.com/dad23q *- no clearances listed. Sire is HD UA, Dam is HD UA

Poky - No listing at all in Rasdata.nu
Ciara - no listing in Rasdata.nu
Summer - no listing is Rasdata.nu
Cindy - no listing in Rasdata.nu


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sandy my sincere apologies for being one of those responsible for the tangent your thread has gone off on. I just have a problem with people who think they can cover there poor breeding practices with lies and intimidation. 
I to am anxiously awaiting what the tests results show and am praying that Duncan will have many years of carefree bliss with you and yours.


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

So why is it so difficult to get straight, honest answers to the questions posed? The questions are reasonable and among those any reputable breeder should be happy to answer, especially if his/her ethics and breeding operation are in question.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> My wife has bred Goldens for 16 years and we only have a handful of disgruntled customers. Our websites speaks for itself with many postings of happy customers with healthy puppies.


Your websiteS do speak for themselveS and that is what many of us question. And as for the "many postings of happy cutomers with healthy puppies" it is kind of one side is it not? I do not see the postings of your admitted to "disgruntled customers".


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Nope I am still here and you can get the information on www.offa.org for the dogs bred here and www.rasdata.nu since our imported dogs have their health clearances done before they come here. I don't have time to sit around and give a profile on each dog I own.
> And being rude........I don't think so! We are being attacked and you are heartless and rude. And for your information 2 other breeders have contacted us that are getting slammed on your forum. We will be watching every posting and we encourage others that are being persecuted by your "click" of Golden Retriever Police squad. Now go searh on puppyfind.com and breeders.com there are plenty of unethical breeders out there that have absolutly no idea of what they are doing. This will be my last posting but I will be watching you with the other breeders. Game over! You WIN!


Ya know... whatEVER.
And to the other two breeders, as well. For pity's sake. You people make big websites, just LOADED with all sorts of purty pictures, and tons of claims. Because those sites are geared toward the general pet buying public, a majority of whom are ill informed at best about how to choose a breeder and a puppy, you think that you can put whatever the heck you want on there, and they'll buy it. Too bad you _don't _count on your sites being seen by people who _are _*very *well aware of how to (very quickly and easily) verify or dispute the claims you make. And then, when challenged, rather than address the ISSUE, you cry foul and play the victim - "OOOH! We're under attack by rude, evil, bloodthirsty hyenas!" Sorry, but in my eyes the only victims are the dogs that are exploited as breeding factories and the unsound puppies they produce.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Nope I am still here and you can get the information on www.offa.org for the dogs bred here and www.rasdata.nu since our imported dogs have their health clearances done before they come here. I don't have time to sit around and give a profile on each dog I own.
> And being rude........I don't think so! We are being attacked and you are heartless and rude. And for your information 2 other breeders have contacted us that are getting slammed on your forum. We will be watching every posting and we encourage others that are being persecuted by your "click" of Golden Retriever Police squad. Now go searh on puppyfind.com and breeders.com there are plenty of unethical breeders out there that have absolutly no idea of what they are doing. This will be my last posting but I will be watching you with the other breeders. Game over! You WIN!


As people have listed very carefully in this thread, you have only hip health certs on only some dogs and nothing else. Hip certs are very helpful, but they're only one important piece of testing a breeding dog. Therefore, by your own admission, you _don't_ comply with the breeding practice of getting hip, elbow, eye, and heart certifications.

I would still very much like answers to my other questions about genetic disorders, breed standard, number of litters a year, early socialization and training, etc. I'm sorry that you're going away, and I'm sorry that some people have been less than courteous in their pointing out of the big gaps in your claims. I believe that the truth speaks for itself and that attacking you is completely unnecessary since the facts are readily available.

While a couple of members have used strong language in their condemnation of your apparent practices, the majority of posts have been thoughtful questions about what you do with your dogs, and those questions remain largely unanswered.

By the way, there were two other breeders that I've seen receive negative attention here, one of whom joined the forum under false pretenses and never cleared up any questions about clearances or practices, and one of whom is probably about to be charged with felonies relating to the abuse of animals. Most of the breeders are open about their practices, honest about their disappointments, and generous with their expertise. It's a lovely community, but the scrutiny of breeding practices is justifiably intense.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> As people have listed very carefully in this thread, you have only hip health certs on only some dogs and nothing else. Hip certs are very helpful, but they're only one important piece of testing a breeding dog. Therefore, by your own admission, you _don't_ comply with the breeding practice of getting hip, elbow, eye, and heart certifications.
> 
> I would still very much like answers to my other questions about genetic disorders, breed standard, number of litters a year, early socialization and training, etc. I'm sorry that you're going away, and I'm sorry that some people have been less than courteous in their pointing out of the big gaps in your claims. I believe that the truth speaks for itself and that attacking you is completely unnecessary since the facts are readily available.
> 
> ...


And as one of the members who has been less than courteous, in pointing out the big gaps, I apologize to the regular, caring members on the forum if it was offensive to any of you. I will admit tohaving NO tolerance for this stuff, given what I have been dealing with for 6 years and now have ahead of me in regards to the same. Those who have "been in the trenches" and have seen and had their hands on the results of these types of "breeding programs" will I am sure understand my short temper.
As for the one mentioned who joined under a false name with a phony story, I've very politely asked some very valid questions, but there have been no answers forthcoming, so I will assume that the OFA and AKC databases are accurate. Seems reasonable.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

I'm not defending the "one mentioned who joined under a false name" because it's pretty well known I don't care for the member, but he did adamantly deny who we accused him of being, therefore he probably feels no need to answer to any of us. Just a thought....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I've very politely asked some very valid questions, but there have been no answers forthcoming, so I will assume that the OFA and AKC databases are accurate. Seems reasonable.


Ain't databases great? You can cut right through the claims to the verifiable truth.

The fact is that some breeders don't want to do the certs or have dogs who won't pass, and they know they don't really need them to sell dogs at high prices to people who don't know what to ask.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

_"I'm not defending the "one mentioned who joined under a false name" because it's pretty well known I don't care for the member, but he did adamantly deny who we accused him of being, therefore he probably feels no need to answer to any of us. Just a thought...."_


Interesting that he admitted being who he was "accused" of being to another member. And that the person who he was "accused" of being has on his website information the closely parallels his persona here. Some of the same statements that are on the website were also posted by him here on GRF. Also, in the final report for the Zoning Board appeal when they were going to build their facility it was indicated that at the time (1999) the applicant had 2 Pomeranians. The GRF persona had 2 Pomeranians.

Probably just coincidental.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Oh I'm sure!!!! coincidental at best LOL

and yes, I've read the website and his comments here...parallels.....still the questions remain on his profile unanswered.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Ash said:


> http://www.goldenretrieverpuppies4u.com/olderfreedogsrescue.htm
> 
> Now this page is what gets me the most. Good Gawd makes me physically sick. These uterus users should be ashamed of themselves. My gawd how do you people sleep at night????? When they say rescue they mean rescue. I hope these dogs got some homes they deserve.


Perhaps I hit a nerve - the page was altered pretty quicky hmmmmm??? :doh: No more first come, first served???


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Again, probably a coincidence.....is there a full moon tonight???


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## Jackson'sMom (Oct 13, 2007)

AndyFarmer said:


> Again, probably a coincidence.....is there a full moon tonight???


No full moon. It's a waning crescent.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Quote=Ash;799620]Perhaps I hit a nerve - the page was altered pretty quicky hmmmmm??? :doh: No more first come, first served???[/quote]

Well. Isn't that interesting.

It all smacks of what an old farmer once told me - "Why feed 'em if you can't breed 'em?"

And now, with some kennels, they can say "Why feed 'em when somebody else _will and you can STILL_ breed 'em !" otherwise known as the Foster Breeder Program. :doh:


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Jackson'sMom said:


> No full moon. It's a waning crescent.


Close enough LOL


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Gee wonder what happen to the older dogs and the rescue dogs????? And a 3 year old who isnt house broken......


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## sandyhp (Jan 21, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Sandy my sincere apologies for being one of those responsible for the tangent your thread has gone off on. I just have a problem with people who think they can cover there poor breeding practices with lies and intimidation.
> I to am anxiously awaiting what the tests results show and am praying that Duncan will have many years of carefree bliss with you and yours.


Hank, you certainly do not owe me an apology! 

I will be sure to let everyone know what I hear from the neurologist at UC Davis. 

Thanks again to EVERYONE!


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## rictic (Feb 16, 2009)

having just read through the whole thread i am amazed.

i feel so sorry for the OP and the issues with her pets.

the website link leads to a pretty average page purporting to be a professional ethical breeder. it is riddled with spelling errors, a sure sign of professionlism in my book,not.

i find the whole pricing and buying structure obscene to be honest. if i was offered the chance to buy otis via a checkout link and not invited to view the litter in situ with the mum i would have run a mile.

also i have found that most of the breeders sites i have looked at offer their clearances on site. click the link and away you go, 5 gen peds there for all to see.
10 gen on some sites.

also good to know they invented the rare english creme lmao. they aint so rare over here rofl.

i cant go in depth re breeding because i am pretty ignorant to tell the truth but if babies were bred like this there would be a lynching.

i always look at a web site full of errors as a lacksidasical effort in marketing and remain suspicious for ever of the whole operation. ffs a spell checker is free so are they gonna actually pay for the things they do need?

ok i know i make errors but it aint my web site and i mis hit keys a lot.


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

The website has changed alot recently. I actually want joe to keep hteir web link up, then we can click click click away, that would be very expensive advertising...


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

Ok! Now you are crossing the line. This has turned into a lynch mobbing and the statement that "then we can click, click, click away, that would be very expensive advertising" is downright disgusting. What kind of people are you? And if anything is changed on the website is because those dogs found homes. I can't very well advertise dogs that have found homes now can I, so that people get their hopes up to get a dog or a puppy. We update our sites daily so you will see a lot of changes. But back to you. You are just showing our customers how horrible you are and it's not helping your cause at all......just showing that you are evil, uneducated and vindictive, nasty people that stop at nothing. How can you claim to be dog lovers when you can't even treat a human right? Shame on you! And note that I am copying every comment and taking it to my attorney when the time is right. Again I tell you "the mouth speaks what the heart is full of" and your hearts are evil and you are just making fools out of yourselves. People will see your evil hearts and our customers will side with us against you and with us. Clicking on our website to make us pay more in advertising is appalling!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I've posted in this thread and I have not lynched you or anyone else. You are painting everyone who posted with the same brush and that is just not fair. I don't even click on the advertising because I don't see the advertising. I believe in educating and finding a way to make change in the most positive way possible.


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

For Ragtyme try www.offa.org on the dogs you listed!


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## Susan6953 (Jun 9, 2008)

To try to get back to something positive, there is a disease common to corgis called degenerative myelopathy (DM). Like many degenerative neurological diseases it occurs later in a dog's life when it may already have been bred. Recently a test was developed to check for DM so now dogs can be tested prior to being bred and maybe that can reduce the incidence of DM in corgis. In the future as we raise money to fund research we may find a test for the disease the OP's sweet boy has and reduce its incidence as well.

On a personal note, my sister's corgi has DM and is starting to have trouble walking and while that is distressing to my sister I don't think it really bothers Merlin. One of her other corgis is a paraplegic and has been since age 4 (he is now 8) and he is clearly very happy. He even does Rally with my sister. I hope your sweet pup has a long and happy life.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Im still wondering why you wont answer any of the questions asked????? You bred a dog with a heart murmur?????


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I've deliberately NOT posted on this thread until now. However, YOUR name calling is ludicrous. This is a very caring, supportive site for all walks of golden lovers. HOWEVER, there is no surprise that it's ALL ABOUT THE DOGS! From champions to dogs on death row, there has been instance upon instance of this group coming together to make a life better. That the breeders here are generous of their time, that education in regards to clearances, GRCA ethics, other health issues and treatments, training is important to those of us who choose to belong here should be evident. Asking you to provide what the GRCA asks every prospective puppy owner to require is elementary.... for you to find that offensive speaks volumes.
http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_find5.html

http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_doodle-white.html#white


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

Why would you need to advertise? Is there a lack of people looking for puppies in your area. If that is the case maybe you should cut back to a few dogs and just place them locally. Especially since, as you mentioned, you spend almost all of the profit on you dogs. 

I am suprised how similar your responses are to Squcummy. Being defensive is a sure sign that you are hiding something. I already know of two customers who will not side with you and many Veterinarians in your area that think the same. 

And honestly threatening with a law suit, Kevin please that is something so ridiculous it is actually making people laugh not worry. You see, you keep turning more and more people against you with these comments. If you were doing things right you would give proof not threats. And your statement about showing our customers, What customers? There are no high volume breeders that I know of here, nor puppy mills posting on a regular basis. That is except for the occasional rant by Sqcummy, who tried to hide his identity but failed. 

You made your bed now you will have to sleep in it. Calling us Evil just shows your true colors. There is a golden puppy mill not too far from me that is finally leaving thank God. What he did to those dogs and the people who bought puppies from him, now that is true Evil. Exploiting animals in an inhumane way simply for profit that is true Evil. 

You see Kevin not only do people here, obviously treat other humans right, they also treat the animals they are responsible just as good. You might really want to just stop now, maybe stop everything. Your message is clear "Poor Me" and nobody is buying it.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Everyone please keep this as a civil discussion. Let this not be a topic we will need to close. Excessive name calling will not permitted. Also please do not let this turn into any kind personal attack, which could include clicking on his ads over and over again. For the most part this has, and can remain, a good discussion on breeding Goldens and how the average person can look up information they may need to make an informative choice.

Thanks


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> For Ragtyme try www.offa.org on the dogs you listed!


Ok Kevin, I did - 

Let me say this first, just to get it out of the way - these dogs MAY have these clearances but they were either prelims, which aren't released to the public through OFA unless the owners specifically states that they can be or they could have been done but never sent in to the appropriate registries to be recorded. The reader will have to be the judge of how likely either of these scenarios are in these cases. That being said...

Goldmaster's Chanelle dob 01/30/1997: OFA GR-63631G24F-T, no CERF clearance ever actually registered with CERF, no heart clearance, no elbow clearance listed - had her first litter 10/2/1998. No missing clearances listed with rasdata.nu

Tottelina Orchestra dob 11/07/1999: OFA GR-81041G47M-NOPI, no CERF clearance ever actually registered with CERF, no elbow clearance, k9data says heart clearance Fin392323, but there is no heart clearance in rasdata.nu. Sired first litter 03/01/2001 - hip clearance received on 10/27/2003. No missing clearances listed with rasdata.nu

Dainty's Flying Class dob 11/04/2001: OFA GR-85157F38M-PI, no CERF clearance ever actually registered with CERF, no heart clearance, no elbow clearance listed - first litter listed on 12/23/2002 - hip clearance received on 01/10/2005. No missing clearances listed with rasdata.nu

Goldenone Star Night dob 06/14/2005 - no clearance information listed on OFA or registered with CERF, no heart clearance, no elbow clearance. First litter on k9data born 08/31/2006. No missing clearances listed on rasdata.nu

Svedjebackens Go For The Gold dob 07/23/2007: no hip clearances listed with OFA or registered with CERF, GR-CA15854/19M/P-VPI Cardiac clearance. First litter listed on whitedgoldenretrievers born 02/19/2008. No missing clearance info listed with rasdata.nu.

Rights Agaton (SN82263001): No clearances listed with OFA or registered with CERF. No clearance information on rasdata.nu

Poky SR15345001 dob 03/04/2002: OFA GR-88463E45F-PI, no heart clearance listed, no elbow clearance listed, no CERF clearance ever registered with CERF. Hip clearance done on 01/29/2006 - first litter born 8/19/2004. No listing at all in Rasdata.nu

Will finish the rest of these later - have to leave for now...

Ciara - no listing in Rasdata.nu
Summer - no listing is Rasdata.nu
Cindy - no listing in Rasdata.nu


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Anyone who is a GRCA member, or has access to the GRNews - there is an excellent article in the current issue (whic just arrived), about "English" Goldens. 
It is full of history, including the many English dogs who have earned American Championships. Beginning LOOOOOOOONG before 1993 which is when WD claims they introduced "English Creams" to the US AKC show rings. Given the huge numbers of WD dogs produced, why are there no champions of record?

The thing about this faction of breeders (puppy mills or HVB's - whichever is appropriate for any individual kennel) is that when challenged by people who actually know something, and by those who are capable of checking databases, etc, they attack those people, rather than addressing the issues of concern. I cannot tell you how many state that "the OFA/AKC lost my paperwork", or, "the veterinarian didn't send them in properly", or, "those dogs got dysplasia because of the owner (who didn't feed them what the breeder otld them to, or didn't give them Nutro-Vet) or _____")
It's always someone elses fault.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Oh my.......I'm putting on my PF Flyers right now!!!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Ok! Now you are crossing the line. This has turned into a lynch mobbing and the statement that "then we can click, click, click away, that would be very expensive advertising" is downright disgusting. What kind of people are you? And if anything is changed on the website is because those dogs found homes. I can't very well advertise dogs that have found homes now can I, so that people get their hopes up to get a dog or a puppy. We update our sites daily so you will see a lot of changes. But back to you. You are just showing our customers how horrible you are and it's not helping your cause at all......just showing that you are evil, uneducated and vindictive, nasty people that stop at nothing. How can you claim to be dog lovers when you can't even treat a human right? Shame on you! And note that I am copying every comment and taking it to my attorney when the time is right. Again I tell you "the mouth speaks what the heart is full of" and your hearts are evil and you are just making fools out of yourselves. People will see your evil hearts and our customers will side with us against you and with us. Clicking on our website to make us pay more in advertising is appalling!


I agree with you, and you have a good point that things that look like personal attacks in this thread distract from the real issue of the breeding practices of White Dove/White Duck Ranch (whatever the real name is).

I think the thread should focus on thoughtful scrutiny of your breeding practices rather than on any kind of personal or financial attack. I understand that you're upset and feel the need to respond to the more outlandish attacks on you, but you need to realize that you haven't addressed the apparent incompleteness of your dogs' certifications or the apparent unethical breeding practices that your websites and records seem to indicate, like breeding dogs with known problems, breeding dogs too young, breeding dogs that don't meet the breed standard, breeding too many litters to socialize properly, etc.

I think if you addressed these concerns more specifically and you really aren't an unethical, high volume breeder, the truth should vindicate you. Please substantiate your claims that you really care about the dogs and the breed with those necessary specifics.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> For Ragtyme try www.offa.org on the dogs you listed!


 
Kevin I did, and posted this, perhaps you missed it so here it is again.




AmbikaGR said:


> I have searched the OFA and CERF databases and this is what I have found. The rasdata.nu website I am not able to navigate due to the language difference but I will try to figure it out at another time. I will denote the dogs that were imported so it will be acknowledged that some clearances may be there (rasdata). the AKC registered number for each dog is in parenthesis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BJSalz (Mar 24, 2009)

Sandy, I'm sorry that you're going thru this. I had some health issues with a mixed dog that I rescued (but who would have known). My vet said to get a purebred from a reputable breeder - in hopes of NOT having health problems. I went to 2 breeders that I found on breeders.net. The first breeder had 30 puppies!!! We ran! The 2nd breeder offered us her last pup on sale, because it had a heart murmer. It's scary for the average person to know who is the "right" breeder to get your pup from. I feel your hurt and frusteration! Sorry again.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

BJSalz said:


> Sandy, I'm sorry that you're going thru this. I had some health issues with a mixed dog that I rescued (but who would have known). My vet said to get a purebred from a reputable breeder - in hopes of NOT having health problems. I went to 2 breeders that I found on breeders.net. The first breeder had 30 puppies!!! We ran! The 2nd breeder offered us her last pup on sale, because it had a heart murmer. It's scary for the average person to know who is the "right" breeder to get your pup from. I feel your hurt and frusteration! Sorry again.


It can be quite a maze to navigate. However, there is much info here... look at the top for the puppy buyer's fact check. Also, the grca site has info on how to find a reputable breeder. Or call your local golden retriever club or visit their website. I know ours has quite a bit of info on their site about how to find a good breeder.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Oh my.......I'm putting on my *PF* *Flyers* right now!!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

AndyFarmer said:


>


OK Jill.... it takes a certain "maturity"...... ok, old age, to get that one!!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

BJSalz said:


> Sandy, I'm sorry that you're going thru this. I had some health issues with a mixed dog that I rescued (but who would have known). My vet said to get a purebred from a reputable breeder - in hopes of NOT having health problems. I went to 2 breeders that I found on breeders.net. The first breeder had 30 puppies!!! We ran! The 2nd breeder offered us her last pup on sale, because it had a heart murmer. It's scary for the average person to know who is the "right" breeder to get your pup from. I feel your hurt and frusteration! Sorry again.


Here is a link to the DFW golden ret. club site that talks about what to look for. http://www.dfwmgrc.org/Public-Info.htm


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## BJSalz (Mar 24, 2009)

Hi Betty, Thanks for your help. I have gone to our local Golden Retriever club for referrals and have found a wonderful breeder that I feel comfortable and confident with. I've PMed a board memeber here the pups clearances to make sure all looked good, and they did so I'm relieved. Thanks again. 

With the health issues our rescue had, I didn't want to go down that road again but now know you have to do your homework. My vet said "Get your head, not your heart". That is hard to do but I'm glad I did.


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> OK Jill.... it takes a certain "maturity"...... ok, old age, to get that one!!


OH okay....I'll let you know when I get there


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## BJSalz (Mar 24, 2009)

Typo correction: "Get with your head, not your heart"


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Something I'd like to suggest to anyone who has owned a dog with a genetic problem - consider adding your dog to both k9data.com and to the Golden Retriever Open Health Registry (http://www.healthygoldens.com/default.asp)

While k9data doesn't allow you space to enter much more than the name, birthdate, parents etc of a dog, the OHR database collects a LOT more information about the dogs' health. The nice thing is that each dog entered in both k9data and the OHR site has a nice little OHR tag next to their name on k9data. Members of OHR can look at those records and see that information. 

Membership for both k9data and the OHR is free.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

*Puppysnuggles...just one question. I went to your site one time, about 4 or 5 years ago and I saw 64 puppies for sale! And that didn't even include the adolescent puppies that were for sale.  

How on earth is that possible? IMO, you can't possibly give that number of puppies the time and energy it takes to raise them properly. Plus, on top of all the puppies care, add on the adult dog's care to the mix and it's impossible to believe there would be enough hours in the day to take care of all of them. :no: Mind blowing to me. 
*


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

ragtym said:


> Something I'd like to suggest to anyone who has owned a dog with a genetic problem - consider adding your dog to both k9data.com and to the Golden Retriever Open Health Registry (http://www.healthygoldens.com/default.asp)


I think this is a wonderful idea. The only problem is new buyers (sometimes I cringe when I use words like buyers) may not know it exists. I wish there were more ways to make such databases public knowledge.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

ragtym said:


> Something I'd like to suggest to anyone who has owned a dog with a genetic problem - consider adding your dog to both k9data.com and to the Golden Retriever Open Health Registry (http://www.healthygoldens.com/default.asp)
> 
> While k9data doesn't allow you space to enter much more than the name, birthdate, parents etc of a dog, the OHR database collects a LOT more information about the dogs' health. The nice thing is that each dog entered in both k9data and the OHR site has a nice little OHR tag next to their name on k9data. Members of OHR can look at those records and see that information.
> 
> Membership for both k9data and the OHR is free.


I would second that suggestion!! If anyone does not know how to add it or make the account (very simple though) PM me the info and I would be happy to add it.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

What happened to the longevity link on K9Data? Am I just missing it?


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## Puppysnuggles (Apr 20, 2009)

*Answers*

Look who ever called the Animal Control today......as usual when they come we got an A+ and the comment "I wish all breeders had their place like this" even the AKC inspector Elizabeth White (the lady one of you sent up there by stating false information) was impressed with our ranch and the way we kept our dogs. She even asked to adopt one of our older boys.

I will try my best to list all the things you are asking for but right now I have a wife that is sick with Leukemia and aggressive Lupus that are affecting her organs. It is doctors visits, treatments, throwing up and loosing her bowels that I have to wipe up, feed her, do the dishes and the laundrey and shop and cook. I run my plumbing business and my dogs. I know that you probably don't care about my dilemma or that we are going through horrible times only the dogs and their welfare......but I can assure you that the dogs are happy, well cared for and are not mistreated in any way. We have all put their welfare first for years. 

Could you please do me a favor and look at the satisfied and happy customers on our page or will you turn that into evil as well?

I am pleading with you guys to give a guy a break here. If it is any consolation for all of you we are giving away our dogs for free just because the fact that we are downsizing and we don't enjoy being treated the way we are by people like you. You can plot among you and write nasty things between yourselves as much as you want but please don't do it so my wife can read it. It kills her.........like I said the dogs was her pride and joy and passion and your words have crushed her.

If I can't handle my dogs in a dignified way with my family's help I will come to this forum and ask for help. 

Do we have a deal?


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Kevin,

I am sorry your wife is so ill. I'm sure you are overwhelmed right now.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Puppysnuggles said:


> Could you please do me a favor and look at the satisfied and happy customers on our page or will you turn that into evil as well?.


So sorry about your wife. Which of the 3 websites would that happy customers page be on??? Sounds like you have plenty to do besides sit around an argue with us all day.


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## Sqwumpkin (Jan 28, 2009)

Kevin:

Don't bother with debate here at GRF. Who was it who said "you'll never win an argument with an ignorant man"? Oh yeah, it was me.

So typical, here: people who have nothing better to do with their time resort to name calling. ludicrous allegations. Lies. Personal attacks. 

Why? because in their hearts they've decided, without knowing you, that you're a baaahd person and breeder. They know vets who can prove it. They know customers who can verify it. They know everything.

In this thread, someone posted nonsense about your breeding operation. many jumped on the band wagon. You set the record straight and explained, with facts, the situation. And now they've all been caught with their pants down. What do you expect them to do, admit they were wrong? hahahahaha. you silly man.

A personal shout out to the most effective mods on earth. Why aren't you banning name callers? You banned me for two weeks. But your favorite clique buddies call people names and you do nothing.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Sqwumpkin said:


> Kevin:
> 
> Don't bother with debate here at GRF. Who was it who said "you'll never win an argument with an ignorant man"? Oh yeah, it was me.
> 
> ...


Thats so pathetic its almost comical :crazy:


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## AndyFarmer (Jul 9, 2007)

Oh thank God Patrick is posting again........(eating popcorn, sipping a coke)


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Sqwumpkin said:


> Kevin:
> 
> Don't bother with debate here at GRF.


 
Well Kevin I will agree with Sqwumpkin on this point. Take care of your wife and do what YOU NEED to do. If at another time when things are more settled for you then please do come back and answer some of these questions. If not then don't. Again, I truly hope your wife feels better and makes a complete recovery quickly.

As for the rest of your post Sqwumpkin you are again taking liberty justing spewing your typical and usual rhetoric.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

This thread needs to be closed IMHO. Thank you for that post Hank.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Sqwumpkin said:


> A personal shout out to the most effective mods on earth. Why aren't you banning name callers? You banned me for two weeks. But your favorite clique buddies call people names and you do nothing.


Thank you for your "opinion". All complaints are discussed among all the Mods and any warning/actions are done privately when all Mods have had time to weigh in on an issue. Banning is something we do not take lightly and only do after other measures have not work. This is all we are going to say on this matter.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I think it's sad, going on and on. We've got members here whose dogs are dieing, have died, sick dogs, dogs in trouble ... members who could use our support and encouragement .... yet here is where the energy is.

I don't understand.

I agree, close it. Opinions have been shared, now it's just going to on ad nauseum. It detracts from the beauty of GRF. And we're talking about giving out business cards?? :no:


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Jo Ellen said:


> I think it's sad, going on and on. We've got members here whose dogs are dieing, have died, sick dogs, dogs in trouble ... members who could use our support and encouragement .... yet here is where the energy is.
> 
> I don't understand.
> 
> I agree, close it. Opinions have been shared, now it's just going to on ad nauseum. It detracts from the beauty of GRF. And we're talking about giving out business cards?? :no:


 
You know Jo Ellen if this thread bothers you so much and you do not understand, DON'T READ IT!! 
I happen to think threads like this are EXTREMELY important to this forum no matter how many times they occur and no matter how long they go on. 
But as usual this is just one man's opinion.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

I too think it is time to now close this thread.


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