# Question: collars reinforcement of command or correction for ignoring command?



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

If the dog is thoroughly e-collar conditioned it is perfectly appropriate to correct for repeated errors, or for lack of effort to comply, or to *compel* in the case of outright refusal, such as a no-go.

EvanG


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> Meaning nic while the dog is sitting and say "sit".


I DO NOT understand this. Why punish a dog for doing what they are supposed to be doing? If someone put a shock collar around my neck, said "sit" when I was sitting and then shocked me I would be mad as heck and have gained absolutely no knowledge on what I was supposed to be doing.


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## tpd5 (Nov 7, 2013)

It is not punishment. It is reinforcement. These are very low "nicks" that the dog has, in the case of Hillmann, had since a very young age. They do not associate the stimulus from a collar with punishment. I am completely sold on Hillmanns method and have been following the entire time with my dog. 

As a puppy the dog is taught to sit and little jerks on the lead while repeating "sit" are used to begin the reinforcement process. These "jerks" are then replaced with nicks when the dog is big enough to start wearing the collar. Hillmann will continue to use the nicks as reinforcements throughout the course of the dogs life. 

He has plenty of videos on YouTube and can explain much better than I can.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Eowyn said:


> I DO NOT understand this. Why punish a dog for doing what they are supposed to be doing? If someone put a shock collar around my neck, said "sit" when I was sitting and then shocked me I would be mad as heck and have gained absolutely no knowledge on what I was supposed to be doing.


Yeah but if they then told you to JUMP -- you'd jump pretty high now wouldn't you? It's called indirect pressure.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

"Sit"/nick/"Sit" is direct pressure as reinforcement for a failed sit. But that command/force sequence can be applied as indirect pressure for other errors. For example when a dog refuses to cast from a remote sit. Cast - refusal...sit/nick/sit sequence - re cast. But Pandora's box is now open, and very likely a long discussion will follow on what indirect pressure is and why it is a more desirable choice for correction that a steady diet of direct pressure.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Sorry I wasn't trying to open Pandora's box. I was trying to think about collar use and how I've been doing it and if I am correctly communicating with my dog. I don't want to use the collar as punishment, just as a communication tool. I have heard people say they never collar correct when the dog is by their side, only away from them. Lots of different theories.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

No, don't feel bad. It's just that indirect pressure is a term many people are familiar with, but have a variety of misunderstandings about. So every time it comes up on a forum post I just can't help but cringe about because people tend to want an off the cuff, one liner description, and it's to complicated for short answers to do it justice. Easy to do, just hard to understand.

EvanG


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Stacey, 
Have you ever taken a look at RTF (Retriever Training)? If you do some thread searches over there you should find good explanations and discussions on just about any subject you need. I believe EvanG is a member there as well, as are several Golden people you'd know. It might be a place you'd feel more comfortable asking some things.

Kristy

RTF - Retriever Training Forum


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

You're right Kristy. Sometimes I forget where I am and post something that could be controversial here. I am a member over there, I can migrate my thoughts over there. By the way, will you be at US golden national this year?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't think controversial topics should be avoided here, at all! The more people understand, the less controversy there is.
RTF has a LOT more members and is a great resource, that's for sure!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I don't think controversial topics should be avoided here, at all! The more people understand, the less controversy there is.
> RTF has a LOT more members and is a great resource, that's for sure!


And most of them seem to positively adore controversy! Bring your think skin to RTF.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Dunno if that was a typo, but it was pretty valid either way 



EvanG said:


> And most of them seem to positively adore controversy! Bring your *think skin t*o RTF.
> 
> EvanG


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

K9-Design said:


> Yeah but if they then told you to JUMP -- you'd jump pretty high now wouldn't you? It's called indirect pressure.


Probably, but next time around I wouldn't sit when told.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Dunno if that was a typo, but it was pretty valid either way


Yep, typo. "Thick" skin. Not a lot of patience or tolerance in some of those folks.

EvanG


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

EOWYN, unfortunately many people miss-use the e-collar because they want trophies and time of accomplishment is even more important to the humans. No matter how much they claim that they use it for training, my feeling it is used to brag about how quick and how far their dog got in titles and achievements. 
While I have it for both girls I only use it for a complete disobedience of a command and nothing else. I personally do not care how soon my dogs will complete titles, I care more about my relationship and journey with my dogs for as long as I can. If I feel my dog is disobedient because of external factors I would also not use it. To me that is a reinforcement of the external factors. 
IE: My dog refuses to perform at this place as she does in all other places. I have to figure out what is causing that. Using the e-collar on her in this place will only reinforce her original negative experience.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Alaska7133 said:


> You're right Kristy. Sometimes I forget where I am and post something that could be controversial here. I am a member over there, I can migrate my thoughts over there. By the way, will you be at US golden national this year?


Please don't think I mean that you shouldn't post a question here, E-V-E-R. I just was thinking that maybe you wanted to talk about your question and not necessarily get into the rest of it. (Some days I'm in the mood to debate and others I'm just flippin' tired and am over it is sorta what I mean). (I'm tired today) I figured you probably did know RTF but decided to throw it out there.
And oh yes, I will be there. Really looking forward to meeting several people in person and of course their dogs. Ellie and I will be in Bristol and then I will try to be in Fletcher to see some of the other events. I will just be there to cheer for 'family' and friends but that should be fun. Are you thinking you may go?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'm headed there! Going for the field trials in Cheraw, then to the breed ring where I might show Lucy in gundog sweeps in Asheville. We should meet up!


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