# Breeders, what DO you look for in a stud?



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I pick stud dogs based on progeny that are "out there". What is the dog producing? I also go towards dogs with titles at both ends.. But not always... And I also look at what is behind the dog in terms of pedigree.. Clearances, etc...


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Janice,
So in your case, having a dog that has no offspring would not be something you would consider? Also, what if they are working towards say their CH but havent gotten it yet but on their way?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Clearances a given. Prefer DNA testing as well. I like titles on both ends of the name, but have bred to non-CH dogs several times, with CCAs. I like to feel 'safe' with the pedigree, which is hard to define but comes from years and years of 'hearing' about dogs and what they are producing. I don't want to have heard any temperament rumours or see siblings with clearances gaping, not so much lacking hips/elbows, knowing sometimes people do heart and eyes for their puppy people. I do. But I don't do hips/elbows for them and only do the heart/eyes on pets if they are in the same town as I am in for a dog show with a clinic... but I don't like to see siblings of the dog or his parents lacking things. Longevity. No preponderance of any given cancer in CODs. What his puppies are doing - how they are clearing- and lastly but perhaps most importantly, is his owner sane.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

All great advice. One more thing to consider that I was told years ago. If you see a dog you REALLY like, go breed to his sire.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

And what if that sire is gone? Next best thing would be a son right? Though not all are created equally..


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

As a buyer and not a breeder I look more at the mother than the father of the pup. Much more depends on how "proven" the mother is than the dad. The dad can have ten thousand titles and I can care less. I do care about his structure and genetics but that is the extent IMHO that he will ever influence the pup.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

What are you looking to improve In your bitch? Is the stud dog that you are looking into producing what you need? Obviously health, longevity and temperament. I know your pain... Bc I am still on the hunt for stud dog for possibly what might be Remi's last litter.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Not a breeder, but following up on what Kelli just said - all the golden ladies I train with who are golden breeders.... when they are talking about finding boyfriends for their girls, it's all about fixing something or GETTING something that their lines don't have. So you have to know your girl's faults...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I just looked at your bitch's k9data, and saw a dog back there I always want to learn more about. There is a GR News article I read all about him that intrigued me: CH OTCH MACH Bonacres The Lucky Penny UDX4 MH WC OS DDHF . Is there frozen on him? Could you go back and look at Woody kids and find a linebreeding there? Even though I do not know the answers to these questions, or much about the health ins and outs of the specific dogs, I think the right stud dog is not always a total outcross.You have some grand dogs back there- so I might try to follow down their lines, and then as said choose a dog that specifically addresses weakness in my bitch while preserving strengths. In an ideal world, the pups would be better than both parents in a linebreeding ( or inbreeding) and at least one would be in an outcross.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Start with your bitch and do a "fearless inventory" of her faults and strengths. Every girl is different. I have two daughters of my foundation bitch. One is busy in her nature and the other one is mellow and laid back. Despite being half sisters I would be unlikely to use the same stud for them. 

For the boy, I start with health clearances, a pedigree with a history of good longevity, and a pedigree that has dogs that I like in the background. If he has been campaigned I look at his titles and see what he has accomplished. If he has not been campaigned the lack of titles is not a detriment.

Second, I look at the stud himself. I want to see balance in his body and ability in his mind. I look for drive, grit, intelligence and team spirit in his work. Is his body within breed standard? I see a lot of field dogs that are doing great work but are too slight of body (lacking bone and substance) for me to add to my program. I see too many show dogs that cannot find a ham sandwich in the dining room (lacking natural ability) for me to ever consider using. 

Whenever possible, go and see the dog before you commit to the breeding. Is this dog strong where your girl is weak? Is he strong where she is strong? Do you like his look? His nature? His work ethic?

Remember that you cannot "have it all". Every boy and every girl will have weaknesses that you have to account for.

Last, but certainly not least, is the stud owner. Can you work with him or her? Is the stud contract reasonable? Seen a bunch that demand all kinds of odd things. Can you trust the stud owner to have the dog available when your girl is expected to come into heat? Nothing like calling to say your girl is in heat and the stud has been sent south for 3 months of training. Does the stud owner have a secure facilty to house your girl for breeding? Ask other breeders that have used a stud dog if they could work with them or did they hold up the registration process with their demands. Yep, seen that too. So while they might have the best stud dog for your girl you can/should cross them off the list if the owner is not reasonable or their facilty is not secure.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I will do a bigger response tonight..but wanted to say a quick THANKS :wavey:to all of you inputing..i really appreciate it! More to come tonight.. Off to work!:yuck:


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

As US golden national approaches, it might be a good place to look for puppy daddies and meet their owners. October is right around the corner.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am not a terribly experienced 'breeder', but co-own my girl with one of the best breeders for performance (Sunfire Golden Retrievers). All of my choices have been approved to help balance Towhee's strong & not so strong points

As mentioned: an honest inventory of the strengths & weaknesses of your girl. For example, my Towhee is very friendly and outgoing, has wonderful focus when actively working but can lose focus when a 'friendly stranger' comes into her sight line. She is within standard, easily earning her CCA but is on the small side. She is an active girl who is either moving or sleeping, rarely quietly enjoying the world around her - always ready to play and train. Her pedigree is strong for obedience and field.

Where is she weak: She can use more size and substance. She can use more focus and calmness. She can use a smoother movement. 

So my choices included conformation dogs who had the calmness and ability to chill that she somewhat lacks. Her first litter's sire has wonderful movement, especially in the field, that I fell in love with. He has a calmness and focus that contributed greatly to calm offspring while passing along beautiful conformation and heads. He has AKC conformation points and his JH among other titles.

Her 2nd litter had me going again for strong focus and proven joy & precision in working obedience (2,000+ OTCh points, UDX17 right, RAE, TD and other titles). Conformation wise I went for a well balanced, athletic and agile structure with the probable effect of having puppies who could 'do it all'; which it appears they can 

I should note that she was bred to a wonderful, wonderful CH who shows a remarkable versatility in obedience, agility, field and now tracking, but Mother Nature had other plans and the litter was not to be. 

OFA clearances are a must, as are eye clearances. Since my Towhee is clear for the PRA1, prcd_PRA and ICH, potential mates cannot be known to be affected but carriers and clears are okay (DNA tests would be done on any puppy being considered for possible breeding)

I should also note that her 3rd and final litter will be a repeat and each of the stud dog owners I have worked with have been wonderful!!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Ok..finally available to reply! Lol had to update our FB as today was the pups 6 month birthday! Time sure does fly!

Anyways, on one of the areas you all mentioned, the improving on your girl..knowing their faults. I know most of Lilly's..by being a bit of a critic (more so than being one to think their bitch has nothing wrong) and doing the CCA program..I got more clarification on some of those areas. 

Her pros are: temperament..she is not easily spooked, loves everyone, great with other dogs (she is my "tester" dog to see how other dogs are..she knows how to greet politely and when to leave a dog alone). She has full dentition, black pigment that doesnt fade, correct coat/texture, good rib spring and moves pretty good. 

Her cons are: she tracks a little wide so her front isnt horrible but could be better, i think it stems from upper arm as her layback is nice. Her topline is good but very slight croup. Her rear is a little weak..she doesnt care to jump up onto things, unlike her daughter who loves too. But yet she is well muscled. Little long in the loin too. She sometimes is a little too laid back..thats one of the reasons why we chose Daisy instead of the other female..she had that pizzaz that Lilly lacks. 

So I am looking for a boy to have that nice front and moves nicely. That also has an awesome temperament, but has a little more energy. That can do it all..obedience, conformation, hunt or agility. Looking for a moderate boy..not too overdone. Nice head, full dentition, good pigment.. Also, rear has to be really nice and a nice short loin. Thats just conformationally and temperament wise. 

Then comes health..I am wary when it comes to certain breeder options on eyes..mostly with the cysts and certain dystrophies. Early cancers are more of a concern as well as doubling up on certain ones. Would love to see long lived parents. Lilly is tested for all the DNA tests, so not as concerned if the boy doesnt have them as one of you said you would just test your pups if you were to breed them. Also, all clearances in order, that in the family histories too not seeing anything bad. 

I think I got that from my litter with the previous litter other than the one pup with eye issues. Most importantly with my pup and the other pup that is being shown. It seemed Lilly definitely allowed the good features of the stud to come through (so far) Which is what I wanted to see before deciding to breed her again.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> I just looked at your bitch's k9data, and saw a dog back there I always want to learn more about. There is a GR News article I read all about him that intrigued me: CH OTCH MACH Bonacres The Lucky Penny UDX4 MH WC OS DDHF . Is there frozen on him? Could you go back and look at Woody kids and find a linebreeding there? Even though I do not know the answers to these questions, or much about the health ins and outs of the specific dogs, I think the right stud dog is not always a total outcross.You have some grand dogs back there- so I might try to follow down their lines, and then as said choose a dog that specifically addresses weakness in my bitch while preserving strengths. In an ideal world, the pups would be better than both parents in a linebreeding ( or inbreeding) and at least one would be in an outcross.


He is a really special dog! When I read about him I was amazed! I will look into that idea! 
I, personally, am not sold on a complete outcross. Usually the ones I do look at with interest have some relatives that are the same. But it isnt a tight line-breeding either. But like what you suggested is something to consider. 
The dogs I am considering are sons of a very well-known dog (who has since passed). A mentor of mine who I am bouncing ideas/names off of, she talked to the well-known dog and they both agree that one of his sons (they named a few I am taking into consideration) would be a good match. The newest one being younger than I was considering. 
I guess my other question for you all is..how young is too young? Do you ever take a chance and be the first one bred to a stud? Who is that usually left up to? 
All stud dogs have to start somewhere right?


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> As US golden national approaches, it might be a good place to look for puppy daddies and meet their owners. October is right around the corner.


Oh..I know..and it is so tempting..but not sure if I can swing it..between work, kids, funds and now may have a chance at a teaching job at a highschool that would interfere with going.. 

The other thing is she may be in heat then! So I am worried about that..the one dog (the young one) apparently isnt going b/c they live too far away.. And another one will be there..logistics..this happened last year but she ended up coming into heat in Dec instead!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Bumping up for my question..
I guess my other question for you all is..how young is too young? Do you ever take a chance and be the first one bred to a stud? Who is that usually left up to?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I would be the first one if I liked what the dog's father and mother both produced, and it was not also the bitch's first litter. If Mystic passes all four of his clearances, he has several girls waiting on his dance card, but those are mainly very, very experienced breeders with a developed line of dogs.

On another topic, but related, I asked a pro handler who has had 6 BIS goldens over a long career who he persoanlly felt the best golden had been. He said Signature's Natural Wonder without pause. Since you have him in Lily's pedigree, I wonder if there is frozen on him? BIS BISS Am-Can CH Signature's Natural Wonder OS SDHF CGC TT


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have seen a very nice stud dog never produce a pup as nice as him. Yet that dog's sire and full brother both out produced him by a long shot. When I bred Tiki, I wanted to get more rear angulation. The stud dog I chose was known to improve rears. That litter produced very nice bend of stifle. And that carried on to Tiki's grand kids.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> I would be the first one if I liked what the dog's father and mother both produced, and it was not also the bitch's first litter. If Mystic passes all four of his clearances, he has several girls waiting on his dance card, but those are mainly very, very experienced breeders with a developed line of dogs.
> 
> On another topic, but related, I asked a pro handler who has had 6 BIS goldens over a long career who he persoanlly felt the best golden had been. He said Signature's Natural Wonder without pause. Since you have him in Lily's pedigree, I wonder if there is frozen on him? BIS BISS Am-Can CH Signature's Natural Wonder OS SDHF CGC TT


I would suppose that's what I am on the fence about..me personally not knowing what the outcome will be however from what my mentor and the owner of sire to the particular dog they feel it would be a good match and that the lines go r well together. 

And the dog previously you were talking about I hit a dead end with that..the new one BIS BISS Am-Can CH Signature's Natural Wonder OS SDHF CGC TT is a very good dog from what I have been told too, from my mentor and other people. Will try to look into that avenue too. 

Thanks for your thoughts! I appreicate it!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> I have seen a very nice stud dog never produce a pup as nice as him. Yet that dog's sire and full brother both out produced him by a long shot. When I bred Tiki, I wanted to get more rear angulation. The stud dog I chose was known to improve rears. That litter produced very nice bend of stifle. And that carried on to Tiki's grand kids.


With it going to be her second litter, maybe the last..but also with the potential to do one more after that (depending on a lot of things)..it is one of those shot in the darks..even with comments from others that it would be a good blend. Anything can happen no matter what..even with a dog who has produced pups. Just because the one breeding produced great pups it may not hold true for your pair. 
This isn't an easy decision. But all your thoughts and responses are much appreciated!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Nice thread. A comment question and a question: Wouldn't one of the nicest reasons for an older sire being (besides seeing how his kids turn out) you would have the knowledge about his health? I think it would be a terrible feeling to have a puppy from a promising sire and then have that sire die young of cancer.

Is it not an option for Lilly's breeder to mentor you and help you through this? Obviously you know Lilly best but her breeder might have great suggestions based on her own history of research. I know that Ellie's breeder puts a lot of thought and research into her decisions and if it were ever in the cards, she would be the first person I'd go to for input.

Thanks for this thread, nice to read through.

ETA: I see you mentioned a mentor, I shouldn't assume it's not Lilly's breeder.


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## hubbub (Jun 28, 2011)

nolefan said:


> Nice thread. .....Thanks for this thread, nice to read through.


As someone who's researching and trying to understand the thought process, I wanted to echo this comment. Thank you to everyone who's commented.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

nolefan said:


> Nice thread. A comment question and a question: Wouldn't one of the nicest reasons for an older sire being (besides seeing how his kids turn out) you would have the knowledge about his health? I think it would be a terrible feeling to have a puppy from a promising sire and then have that sire die young of cancer.
> 
> Is it not an option for Lilly's breeder to mentor you and help you through this? Obviously you know Lilly best but her breeder might have great suggestions based on her own history of research. I know that Ellie's breeder puts a lot of thought and research into her decisions and if it were ever in the cards, she would be the first person I'd go to for input.
> 
> ...


I have a few mentors.. My breeder had a litter of pups so I was/am trying not to bother her too much. She knows of most of my choices (and agrees of where I am leaning towards) but my other mentor, she owns Lilly's sire(and the main one I keep mentioning) has been helping me too as she understands her lines as well. She is suggesting dogs for me as well. 
I would not and could not do that without their valuable input. I would even be more lost!

And yes ..and older dog would make sense as far as longevity and health concerns that could pop up later in life.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Not only that, but if we are ever going to bring this breed back together the stud dogs need to show qualities besides a pretty face and a nice structure. While I understand that a lot of people who are heavily campaigning the young stud dogs in the breed ring may not have time to also train in other venues, selecting an older stud dog would give them the time to prove his intelligence and biddability, such necessary components of the Golden breed, in one or more venues. 
It's easy enough to *claim* that a young dog is highly trainable and very smart, it's another thing to prove it. An older stud dog should have had ample opportunity to prove his other qualities.
I think it is imperative to the future of the breed that people consider WHY they are breeding the dog/bitch. If they are breeding to win in a particular venue, be it the show ring, the field, obedience, agility, whatever, they are not breeding to improve the breed, no matter what they say. They are breeding to win. And at this point, I don't think anyone is breeding to improve the breed, but there are some people who are trying to rescue it. If one is breeding to win, they will select a stud dog based on totally different criteria than if they are breeding to rescue/improve the breed.
JMO. Off my soapbox. 




OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> And yes ..and older dog would make sense as far as longevity and health concerns that could pop up later in life.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> Not only that, but if we are ever going to bring this breed back together the stud dogs need to show qualities besides a pretty face and a nice structure. While I understand that a lot of people who are heavily campaigning the young stud dogs in the breed ring may not have time to also train in other venues, selecting an older stud dog would give them the time to prove his intelligence and biddability, such necessary components of the Golden breed, in one or more venues.
> It's easy enough to *claim* that a young dog is highly trainable and very smart, it's another thing to prove it. An older stud dog should have had ample opportunity to prove his other qualities.
> I think it is imperative to the future of the breed that people consider WHY they are breeding the dog/bitch. If they are breeding to win in a particular venue, be it the show ring, the field, obedience, agility, whatever, they are not breeding to improve the breed, no matter what they say. They are breeding to win. And at this point, I don't think anyone is breeding to improve the breed, but there are some people who are trying to rescue it. If one is breeding to win, they will select a stud dog based on totally different criteria than if they are breeding to rescue/improve the breed.
> JMO. Off my soapbox.


And another reason why I am hesitant to use a young dog.. I am looking for a well-rounded dog. One that has accomplished and has titles on both ends. I am probably not going to use him, as if I am hesitating, that is not what I want to feel. I want to know what I will be adding to my bitch will be great. 

Luckily, I think I have may have found one (possibly 2). They are brothers..they are older (11) have done it all, go back to Lilly's lines, and have offspring. Trying my best to get in contact with the one owner who may live closer than the other one. We will see if they will be a good match. :crossfing


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

BTW, I admire the time and effort you have put into this.
Also, it's a good plan to ask permission to call the stud dog's vet and discuss the dog's overall health. I've been told that some stud dog owners believe in the "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy of health.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> BTW, I admire the time and effort you have put into this.
> Also, it's a good plan to ask permission to call the stud dog's vet and discuss the dog's overall health. I've been told that some stud dog owners believe in the "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy of health.


Omg..i am a vet tech and never even thought of doing that..:doh: duhhh.. 

And thank you.. I have been searching since after..well actually I think before her last litter..thinking of who it would be the next time..but really been researching and getting down to the nitty gritty since after the litter left in April.. I want to finalize these plans as she is due to come soon..well if she is on time..she wasnt last time though!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I used to study thoroughbred horse pedigrees and what I learned is that some horses reproduced themselves either thru the sire or dam. Some were known as sires of broodmares. And some just never produced... I think the same applies to dogs...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> Not only that, but if we are ever going to bring this breed back together the stud dogs need to show qualities besides a pretty face and a nice structure. While I understand that a lot of people who are heavily campaigning the young stud dogs in the breed ring may not have time to also train in other venues, selecting an older stud dog would give them the time to prove his intelligence and biddability, such necessary components of the Golden breed, in one or more venues.
> It's easy enough to *claim* that a young dog is highly trainable and very smart, it's another thing to prove it. An older stud dog should have had ample opportunity to prove his other qualities.
> I think it is imperative to the future of the breed that people consider WHY they are breeding the dog/bitch. If they are breeding to win in a particular venue, be it the show ring, the field, obedience, agility, whatever, they are not breeding to improve the breed, no matter what they say. They are breeding to win. And at this point, I don't think anyone is breeding to improve the breed, but there are some people who are trying to rescue it. If one is breeding to win, they will select a stud dog based on totally different criteria than if they are breeding to rescue/improve the breed.
> JMO. Off my soapbox.




I agree with part of this ( but not the part that a lonely few are trying to rescue the breed- who would that be?) , and I also think a dog also must prove himself as a prepotent stud dog. It is like starting from zero with accomplishments aside. No matter how wonderful the dog itself, you have to look to his kids' health and accomplishments to see if he is producing better than himself. The ideal stud dog may not be the one with the most titles if he is a weak producer, and the only way to tell is through the kids.

In this way, an ideal breeding would be with an older stud dog who had not just proven _himself _with titles on both ends, and displayed a wonderful temperament, field working capacity, and robust health beyond the four clearances, but would also be a dog from several generations back of dogs with equal quality ,who then showed prepotency in reproducing his good points without a theme of a specific health problem. After that, the dog would need to merge with an equally laudable bitch. This ideal is hard to come by without using frozen semen! There are two dogs like this I am watching for my bitch- watching and watching their kids who so far are in one case just too young to rise to the level or their father and in the other case whole litters have a majority of pups with once specific health problem. It is harder than it seems to simply choose that ideal dog, bc the ideal dog barely exists.

Being at this huge show this weekend, and watching dogs hour after hour, getting hands on them, grooming them- I just dont agree the breed is in lamentable horrible shape. I also watch went to field training Connecticut, since I am staying and hiking on the grounds there. The two experiences show a whole lot of caring breeders working hard in their venues with sound dogs of differing styles. Are there the extremes? Yes. Is there a tremendous core of small caring breeders doing an amazing job in both venues? Yes! 


Breeding is an intricate puzzle with many pieces. To say a huge percentage of breeders are wrecking the breed while a lonely handful are trying to rescue it is a perspective with which I disagree bc there are many, many fine breeders whose lines I respect too much. I don't buy the gloom and doom negativity of trying to imply most breeders are doing a sucky job bc they want to win, while the one lady and five of her closest friends are these salvation angels who do right what everyone else screws up. Does the dog have a rock solid pedigree showing his health and success is not an individual fluke but something he is likely to reproduce again and again in his kids, and again can we see those kids surpassing the stud dog- living as long typically, not seeing a stacking up of one problem like elbows or eyes? Is the stud dog older than 9 with no major health issues? These are good questions worth asking. 



> They are breeding to win. And at this point, I don't think anyone is breeding to improve the breed, but there are some people who are trying to rescue it.


To sit in judgment of the entire network of USA breeders as ruining the breed because they want to win is not at all offensive to me bc all around me are thriving golden , but it is a radical extreme position that discounts all of the good work being done by so many small breeders.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I agree and apologize. I get carried away sometimes because I am so saddened by how split the breed has become. But that discussion doesn't belong in this thread at all, and I'm sorry for introducing it.
As Jill said, there are more and more who are working hard within their breeding programs to return to the versatile Golden retriever, and they deserve our admiration.




Ljilly28 said:


> To sit in judgment of the entire network of USA breeders as ruining the breed because they want to win is not at all offensive to me bc all around me are thriving golden , but it is a radical extreme position that discounts all of the good work being done by so many small breeders.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Some very good stuff here.



Ljilly28 said:


> ....and I also think a dog also must prove himself as a prepotent stud dog. It is like starting from zero with accomplishments aside. No matter how wonderful the dog itself, you have to look to his kids' health and accomplishments to see if he is producing better than himself. The ideal stud dog may not be the one with the most titles if he is a weak producer, and the only way to tell is through the kids....
> 
> In this way, an ideal breeding would be with an older stud dog who had not just proven _himself _with titles on both ends, and displayed a wonderful temperament, field working capacity, and robust health beyond the four clearances, but would also be a dog from several generations back of dogs with equal quality ,who then showed prepotency in reproducing his good points without a theme of a specific health problem.......It is harder than it seems to simply choose that ideal dog, bc the ideal dog barely exists....
> 
> ...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would just like to chime in about the comments concerning titles at both ends -- this necessitates not only an excellent dog, but an owner with commitment and both time & financial resources.

I personally am more into the obedience/agility/field work so conformation, movement and biddability will rank higher on my list than a breed championship; and studs who show versatility across sports rank highest. 

Yes, conformation should follow purpose but as we know it often does not, the ability of a golden to work with joy, learn with aptitude and to live in the house with his people to me, far outweighs a dog who spends a lot of time winning, but on a truck with professional handlers -- this does not prove a potential sire's ability to be a companion. I want any puppies I have a hand in introducing to this world to be beloved companions first and then to excel in their owner's chosen sport(s) if applicable. 

I think overall, you need to gauge all of your girls strengths and weaknesses and then decide not only what areas you are hoping to improve or balance, but what type of puppies you are aiming for: your goal cannot be winning puppies since that is abstract, but where are you thinking your puppies will be homed; companion, agility, obedience, hunting, field work, therapy work, assistance work, dock diving etc. What do you envision the life to be for your girls puppies?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I feel that anyone who is campaigning their dog as a stud dog needs to make that commitment. Now I'm not referring to the dog who is sometimes approached by someone who is interested in him specifically, but to the dogs who are actively offered and campaigned as stud dogs. 
You may not see the multiple titles in the offspring, because very few people ARE willing to make the commitment, but I think the stud dog himself does need to have some proof of abilities and conformation. It doesn't have to be a breed championship, the introduction of the CCA has given us a very valuable tool in assessing structure. (In many ways much more valuable than the CH, but that's also a topic for another thread). 

The rest of what you say I totally agree with. And to elaborate on something else you said, titles aren't the be all and end all, either. Was the dog trained and handled by an amateur, or sent out to live with someone else (performance venues)? Did it take innumerable tries and many, many years to get the title, or did the dog title easily and quickly? How does the dog learn? How does the dog work?
Temperament should play a huge role in the "good Golden" puppies being produced, and their ability to be a companion, like you said, should be at the forefront of the consideration. Can you live with the dog? There seem to be so many difficult Goldens these days. This shouldn't be the case. 

And finally, if possible I think people need to try to avoid the "stud de jour". The popular stud syndrome, I have read, is very damaging to the breed. There's a good article in the most recent GR News about this.




Sunrise said:


> I would just like to chime in about the comments concerning titles at both ends -- this necessitates not only an excellent dog, but an owner with commitment and resources.
> 
> I personally am more into the obedience/agility/field work so conformation, movement and biddability will rank higher on my list than a breed championship; and studs who show versatility across sports rank highest.
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Whew, this could go on forever....

Also, I think one should look for a stud dog owner who knows the stud dog's strengths and weaknesses and can discuss them intelligently, and isn't just looking for a stud fee. I think this is especially important if you are dealing with a novice stud dog owner, rather than a long time, experienced breeder. Be sure they are able to identify and admit to their dog's weaknesses. After all, there's no such thing as a perfect dog. (okay, I said this was for another thread, but....) Herein lies the value of the CCA. If the CCA evaluators all said that the dog lacks substance, for example, and the bitch's owner is looking to improve the bone in her breeding line, another stud dog would be a better choice. If the CCA evaluators all said the dog has a great front assembly, he might be a good consideration for someone looking to improve the front end of their breeding stock. Much more valuable information than "My dog is a CH", especially, again, to novice stud dog owners who may not have the experience to truly judge the dog's strengths and weaknesses themselves. A lot of stud dogs are selected "sight unseen", and this, too, makes the CCA very valuable. For people who have been "in goldens" forever, they probably know as much as the CCA evaluators do!

One very interesting conversation (that didn't end up in a breeding!) I had with a bitch's owner began by her saying, "Tell me Tito's weaknesses. I already know his strengths". Based on that conversation, we mutually decided the breeding wasn't a good fit. The things she was looking to balance out wouldn't have been improved by a breeding to Tito, who shares some of the same weaknesses.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Just adding this because I think you will like it. He is referring specifically to breeding dogs for hunting, but it could be expanded to include pretty much everything:
(taken from Your Great Hunting Dog – To Breed or Not to Breed | TriTronics)

"Evaluating Your Dog
To you your dog is probably the best dog in the world, and that is the way it should be. However, responsible breeders know to avoid being “blinded by love”. Instead, they take a step back and honestly evaluate the good points and bad points of their dog prior to making the decision to breed.
Since the goal of breeding any hunting retriever should be to produce a better dog, there are two key areas that you should examine during this evaluation: personality and performance.
Let’s start by taking a look at personality. There are certain personality traits among retrievers that are heritable and make them highly valued for their specific sporting role as a waterfowl and upland hunter. These traits include tractability, attitude and temperament.
As a professional trainer I would have to say that the most important personality trait to any retrieving breed would have to be tractability. Since the hunting retriever and handler must work as a team, only those dogs that train easily and are manageable should go into the gene pool. As a rule dogs that are extremely “hard headed” and difficult to train and handle are very poor representatives of any retrieving breed and should not be bred. Likewise, it has been my experience that dogs that are very “soft” and respond poorly to correction or show strong avoidance tendencies while training almost always pass these traits on to their offspring.
Another important personality trait is attitude. Good hunting dogs are friendly, have an outgoing personality, and adapt well to new situations. One of the first things that I look at when a new dog comes into our kennel is the way that it carries itself. I am most impressed by a dog that comes into the yard with a care free attitude and posture. These dogs almost always train well, and they are very enjoyable to work with. Conversely, it is generally a bad sign when an owner drags out a dog with its tail tucked between its legs.
Just as important as attitude is temperament. According to the American Kennel Club, two of the three most popular breeds over the last ten years have been retrievers, the Labrador and the Golden respectively, with the Lab dominating all breeds over the last decade. Without a doubt this is due in large part to the wonderful temperament of the average retriever. Whether as a working dog or a pet, a good retriever should be even keeled, not mean or aggressive and not overly excitable. A good retriever should be calm in the duck blind, but ready. Highly excitable dogs can upset a hunt and destroy a home. On the other hand, lethargic dogs often tend to work lazily and fail to get the job done. Therefore, it is very important to the breeds that an evaluation of temperament be included before making any breeding decision.
In addition to personality, you should also evaluate your dogs’ level of performance prior to making a breeding decision. Probably the best way to get an objective opinion of your dogs’ level of performance is to test it against an established standard of performance (such as in hunt tests).
Without taking the time to establish a basis for comparison there is no way to really be sure just how good a dog is. As stated earlier, almost every guy I know who hunts with a dog thinks that his dog is great, however, the fact that he thinks he has a great hunter does not automatically qualify that dog as a good candidate for breeding.
Hunt tests and field trials can often help expose undesirable characteristics within your dog that your may have not encountered if your particular hunting situation. Succeeding in hunt tests events as well as in actual hunting can help you be more confident that your dog truly does have the ability to make a contribution to the breed...."





Sunrise said:


> I would just like to chime in about the comments concerning titles at both ends -- this necessitates not only an excellent dog, but an owner with commitment and both time & financial resources.
> 
> I personally am more into the obedience/agility/field work so conformation, movement and biddability will rank higher on my list than a breed championship; and studs who show versatility across sports rank highest.
> 
> ...


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I am sincerely grateful to all of you contributing to this thread. I think this has been so informative, helpful and carried on very well. As in all things, we do have our own opinions on how things should be done, but the apparent thing shining through is that we all still want to make sure things are done correctly to improve and preserve this breed. 
I am not a stud dog owner (yet..maybe one day..) and hearing sides from those that do have studs is helpful as well. The CCA I did with Lilly was a great experience. Having three experienced breeders/judges go over my dog was incredibly invaluable and I plan on doing it with any of my dogs I keep. I love you get to verbally and it written down what are your dogs strengths and weaknesses are. I knew some before going in but not all. 
Not sure if I should start a new thread on this question..I had mentioned in one of my posts here and then Barb said it again.. About the "popular sire" syndrome..is it really that bad that some make it out to be? What do you consider makes one a "popular sire"? How many litters? Because of Offspring accomplishments or who also go on to breed?.. Breeding to an offspring of a "popular sire" wouldnt that still be like breeding to said dog? "Popular sires" must be "popular" for a reason..good reason? Maybe? On my search I see lots of the same sires back in pedigrees... Was it because gene pool smaller then or not as many breeders? 
Just some thoughts..questions in my head..lol


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This morning, before leaving for the dog show in ten minutes, I went on a hike at West Thompson Dam (field training grounds and beautiful federal land parcel) with two friends and their goldens. We had a mix of field and show goldens, with two Master Hunters/UDs, two Grand Champions, three breed champions with obedience titles, and four well bred pets with various lower level obedience, agility, and therapy titles. The oldest dog, a MH was born in 2000 and the CH dog was born in 2001. My Finn was the next oldest. 

Anyway, we walked with the dogs dashing around about half a mile, and then met a pet owner with a doodle and two border collies. We asked our crew to sit-stay, but the guy let his run up. We released the goldens, all said a happy good morning, and we moved on. 

Next, we turned the corner to the big water where a bunch of noisy honking geese were in the sunrise, so we let the dogs run down. The 7 year old MH hit the water first, but my GCH bitch was right at his shoulder in second. Lickityspilt all the dogs were in the water playing, and we had a fun time chatting on shore and watching. When we decided to move on, we recalled all the dogs- no e collars and no cookies!

As we hiked back to our cars, to women approached in speed walking mode, so we called in the dogs and asked them to sit stay. The ladies asked if they could pet the dogs, and said what pretty goldens. Field or show, all these dogs had enough breed type so the women right away knew they were goldens.

This is a long way of saying that while I know there is a split in the breed, I do not see it as this drastic horrible thing. We had 11 goldens out today- very senior citizens trotting free in the morning, very young dogs listening beautifully, and some well titled dogs on boths sides with some nice health clearances. We had some pets too that had failed a clearance, but none in pain and none not thriving in the bright fresh air of this day. 

Things are not THAT bad.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> Not only that, but if we are ever going to bring this breed back together the stud dogs need to show qualities besides a pretty face and a nice structure.


Not to point out the obvious, but I do believe you have such a dog?

@the op, Tito is pretty nice… (I haven't looked at pedigrees at all, or even thought much on it though, just thought I would point out what seemed obvious to me after Barb's comment).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Are you a GRCA member? There's a really great article in the most recent GR News (got mine yesterday) about the popular sire syndrome and the negative effects on the breed.
Yes, they are popular for a variety of reasons, some legit, some just "jumping on the bandwagon".




OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> I am sincerely grateful to all of you contributing to this thread. I think this has been so informative, helpful and carried on very well. As in all things, we do have our own opinions on how things should be done, but the apparent thing shining through is that we all still want to make sure things are done correctly to improve and preserve this breed.
> I am not a stud dog owner (yet..maybe one day..) and hearing sides from those that do have studs is helpful as well. The CCA I did with Lilly was a great experience. Having three experienced breeders/judges go over my dog was incredibly invaluable and I plan on doing it with any of my dogs I keep. I love you get to verbally and it written down what are your dogs strengths and weaknesses are. I knew some before going in but not all.
> Not sure if I should start a new thread on this question..I had mentioned in one of my posts here and then Barb said it again.. About the "popular sire" syndrome..is it really that bad that some make it out to be? What do you consider makes one a "popular sire"? How many litters? Because of Offspring accomplishments or who also go on to breed?.. Breeding to an offspring of a "popular sire" wouldnt that still be like breeding to said dog? "Popular sires" must be "popular" for a reason..good reason? Maybe? On my search I see lots of the same sires back in pedigrees... Was it because gene pool smaller then or not as many breeders?
> Just some thoughts..questions in my head..lol


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the compliment, but I'd rather not make this thread about anyone's personal dogs or their personal breeding programs. It's a sure recipe for hard feelings.
Tito has faults. I know what they are, and I turn down a lot more breedings than I accept. 

ETA--I didn't mean for my answer to sound flippant, and re-reading it I believe it does. Sorry.
Yes, Tito is such a dog, he has a pretty face, sound temperament, and loads of proven working ability. But there's so much more than that in determining a good match, it doesn't mean he's often the right dog for a breeding decision. In every case we have to evaluate what each dog brings to the table at an almost microscopic level, in terms of pedigree, health, temperament, ability, and every item of structure, and decide whether or not the match is a good one. Then, if we determine it is, there's the logistics of getting the two dogs together!




Eowyn said:


> Not to point out the obvious, but I do believe you have such a dog?
> 
> @the op, Tito is pretty nice… (I haven't looked at pedigrees at all, or even thought much on it though, just thought I would point out what seemed obvious to me after Barb's comment).


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> One very interesting conversation (that didn't end up in a breeding!) I had with a bitch's owner began by her saying, "Tell me Tito's weaknesses. I already know his strengths".


I love this!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> ... *stud dogs need to show qualities besides a pretty face and a nice structure*.............It's easy enough to *claim* that a young dog is highly trainable and very smart, it's another thing to prove it. An older stud dog should have had ample opportunity to prove his other qualities..........it is imperative to the future of the breed that people consider WHY they are breeding the dog/bitch. If they are breeding to win in a particular venue, be it the show ring, the field, obedience, agility, whatever, they are not breeding to improve the breed, no matter what they say. They are breeding to win....



Since the discussion was about what breeders look for in a stud dog, this statement is relevant. And it is spot on. 

Barb, I did not find your observations to be judgmental. I hear your frustration, most likely because I agree with it. Holding up the dogs who have high level titles on both ends as the 'gold standard' (sorry, couldn't help it) is absolutely critical to the future of the breed. Why in the world would we not recognize these dogs for what they are, PROVEN versatile, correct goldens and if the temperament and health there, they are ideal Goldens. These are the genetics that need to be passed on. It is the ideal that everyone should be striving for no matter what angle they are concentrating on first.

I wince everytime I hear someone defending breeders and/or their dogs who only have conformation titles or only have performance titles with the idea that it's not their fault they only have conformation titles because it just costs too much money or takes too much time to show or train etc. for anything else. That just doesn't cut it. (I am not talking about the situations where life gets in the way and these things happen I know - I am talking about the long term pattern).

Now that the CCA option is out there, any 'performance' or field dog being bred ought to have that designation. Yes, sometimes it's necessary to travel to a CCA evaluation being held - I understand they aren't a dime a dozen, but if you can spend thousands traveling for agility trials or field trials/hunt tests than you can find a CCA. Maybe if demand is high, more opportunities will start being given. Likewise, if a breeder has time and money to title multiple dogs in the conformation ring, I simply don't see a valid excuse for there not being time and money to work on one of the many opportunities for performance titles out there now. I get it that not everyone wants to deal with dead ducks but with the options for tracking and rally and even a CD, what is the excuse? Because it was more important to them to get conformation titles on 10 dogs than it was to prove versatility on 3. That's what it comes down to in my mind. That's where it appears that winning at something (whether it is field or agility or conformation) is all they care about. 

If people spent more time and effort making two or three dogs all around, versatile dogs their priority instead of continuing to focus 100% on winning in one venue year after year with a large number of dogs, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But until more people start putting their money where their mouth is, I absolutely am going to hold up those amazing all around dogs and yes, their owners too, as the holy grail of Golden Retrievers. 

There is no doubt that the ideal stud dog is very hard to find when you set the bar that high. When you add health and longevity it gets even harder. We can't breed only to those dogs, we need more diversity so there is a place for those dogs who only have been shown to have a strength in one area. But that doesn't mean that we have to throw up our hands and say that we will settle for this. We need those devoted Golden people, who I agree do exist in great numbers, to place more focus and emphasis on making our breed more of an all around dog by aiming for it with their own dogs. We do not need more conformation champions who have proven themselves on physical traits alone. We need more dogs who are tested for both physical and mental characteristics, its more of those all around dogs we need to have passing their genes on.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Following, LOVE the discussion, thanks.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

More on selecting a stud dog:

Hard as it is to select ONE, you should select at least TWO. It's imperative to have a back-up plan in case something goes wrong with your first choice. In an ideal world, that doesn't happen, but we don't live in an ideal world.

Supposing he is out of town at a BIG show when she inconveniently goes into heat? Most good stud dog owners will move Heaven and Hell to make it work if you have given them enough advance warning of the breeding, but sometimes it just isn't possible.

Worse, supposing he is sick or injured? It can happen. I had some concerns that Tito might have a TBD right before his last set of breedings because I had found an engorged tick on him a few weeks prior, and might need to be put on doxy. There is some limited evidence that doxy causes breedings to "not take". (luckily all tests were negative). 

Also, you are well within your rights to ask for a semen analysis on the stud dog prior to the breeding, again assuming you give enough advance notice to the stud dog owner. The cost is about $80, so it's not a terribly expensive test. But it's peace of mind for you that there is viable sperm, and also peace of mind for the stud dog owner that, if the breeding doesn't "take", there's nothing wrong with the boy. They boys can go sterile for no apparent reason. They can have a low count due to age, infection, or working too hard in high heat. 

If you do end up contacting the back-up stud dog owner at the last minute, however, don't expect them to drop everything for the breeding if they are having a hard time working it into their schedule.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

I am enjoying reading about the thought process that goes into this.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Oh yes..had a back-up last time! Just got a response back from the one stud's owner.he is no longer breeding..had something medical come up (turned out to be "ok") but he was neutered..things do happen. And yeah with the national coming up..praying she comes in early or even late again! Lol


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> And yeah with nationals coming up..praying she comes in early or even late again! Lol


Wait wait wait, Allison, is praying that Lilly would come in late? You are actually praying to have to wait longer for something! Wow, I am so impressed, who are you and what did you do with Allison?  : JK


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

LOL! If it wasnt around the national I wouldnt be saying that! But you know i will be still stressing regardless!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

On the 2 stud note, I have noticed some breeders breeding to 2 studs at the same time. They DNA the pups to determine which pup belong to which stud. The idea is that it ensures enough viable offspring especially in the case of frozen semen. Any thoughts on this?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Never have done it, but have heard it's a huge headache with AKC in terms of paperwork. 



Alaska7133 said:


> On the 2 stud note, I have noticed some breeders breeding to 2 studs at the same time. They DNA the pups to determine which pup belong to which stud. The idea is that it ensures enough viable offspring especially in the case of frozen semen. Any thoughts on this?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> Never have done it, but have heard it's a huge headache with AKC in terms of paperwork.


Sungold who is a member did it and it sounded like a real pain...


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I heard it was a pain too and those that have done it will not do it again!


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## cazzy (Jan 7, 2014)

I am still new to breeding goldens we just had our 2nd litter born a couple of days ago. I am not sure what happens at a show where you are but here we are given a critique at every show telling us what the judge said about our dogs and what i did was look back over them and found the 1 or 2 things that came up to try and improve on as you can't improve on everything at once. I then looked for 2 males that had either 1 or both of those things but else still had a lot of things my bitch had the first time i else looked at the studs other litters to see how they were, but this time i couldn't do that as he was a unproven stud ( my back up was proven) but i was able to look at his father and his sisters litter. We did take a big chance on using him for our last litter from our bitch but i think it will be worth it. My bitch is quite solid and powerful as it was put one time and i wanted to keep that along with movement, angles and topline plus she is well balanced it was mainly her pigment and neck length that came up so that is what we went for. took me 4 months to decide and we got advice from 4 other breeders 1 is a judge as well. I else met each dog we looked at in person and put my hands on them to check them over before we decided. My husband was quite shocked that i had even asked for this but i explained to him just because the paperwork is good and the pictures are doesn't mean it is. If i don't like the way the dog moves stands behaves and such i don't want it in my line maybe i am a bit pushing and demanding when it comes to my girls but they are my babies. I else don't need to worry about a breeding contract here we pay a stud fee and then we pay the same fee for each pup that reaches 5 wks of age to the stud owner and i am glad i get along with her great.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

nolefan said:


> I wince everytime I hear someone defending breeders and/or their dogs who only have conformation titles or only have performance titles with the idea that it's not their fault they only have conformation titles because it just costs too much money or takes too much time to show or train etc. for anything else. That just doesn't cut it. (I am not talking about the situations where life gets in the way and these things happen I know - I am talking about the long term pattern).


I look forward to your successful breeding program of healthy, thriving GCH/MH dogs! It sounds like you are fired up to spend the time and money you need to meet your ideals. Will be cheering for you!


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Ljilly28 said:


> I look forward to your successful breeding program of healthy, thriving GCH/MH dogs! It sounds like you are fired up to spend the time and money you need to meet your ideals. Will be cheering for you!


This made me chuckle. As a pet owner I'd like to pipe in that part of bettering the breed IMO is to produce a lot of well bred pet puppies. I know that pet pups are not a breeders goal, but to reduce byb's and greeders, a lot of well bred pups need to be available. If the only dogs that were bred by reputable breeders had titles at both ends, us pet owners would be hurting! There wouldn't be enough! While I loved that our first breeder had a "both ends" philosophy they did not have to work full time either. Our most recent breeder was a true hobby show breeder, he loved to show dogs and that is all. He bred for himself (mostly) for 4 decades and many wonderful homes benefitted with exceptional pups. 

No Pearl would never be a MH but I much prefer her than having gotten one from the greeder down the road from us that often has 20 pups on the ground. Sorry to derail, keep up the good work!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes and no. There are breeders out there who breed "pet puppies" but believe that the people getting pets are every bit as deserving of getting a true Golden retriever, that is, one with a wonderful temperament, smart, calm, trainable, and structurally sound as people looking for performance dogs. Many of them do look for titles on both ends of the name for their stud dogs, to be sure that they are not compromising the breed. 
Tito's original breeder is one of them. He was bred and sold as a pet, nothing more. I believe several of the dogs in his litter would have been as capable as he is, and I know at least one of his brothers is lovely show quality. But that's not what the people were looking for, and that's fine with the breeder. 
So yes there are some who breed wonderful dogs, and sell them as pets. But if they have a well rounded stud dog, and an equally wonderful bitch, if people want to dabble in dog sports, they have a dog that is capable. If they just want a wonderful house companion, they have that, too.




lhowemt said:


> This made me chuckle. As a pet owner I'd like to pipe in that part of bettering the breed IMO is to produce a lot of well bred pet puppies. I know that pet pups are not a breeders goal, but to reduce byb's and greeders, a lot of well bred pups need to be available. If the only dogs that were bred by reputable breeders had titles at both ends, us pet owners would be hurting! There wouldn't be enough! While I loved that our first breeder had a "both ends" philosophy they did not have to work full time either. Our most recent breeder was a true hobby show breeder, he loved to show dogs and that is all. He bred for himself (mostly) for 4 decades and many wonderful homes benefitted with exceptional pups.
> 
> No Pearl would never be a MH but I much prefer her than having gotten one from the greeder down the road from us that often has 20 pups on the ground. Sorry to derail, keep up the good work!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> I look forward to your successful breeding program of healthy, thriving GCH/MH dogs! It sounds like you are fired up to spend the time and money you need to meet your ideals. Will be cheering for you!


Did I hit a nerve? Because... WOW! I can't remember the last time I've heard this kind of passive aggressive ugliness. Maybe my naiveté is showing again, but I thought you would be a big supporter of the idea that once a dog has proven his superiority in the breed ring it would be a great disservice to the dog not to branch out and allow him to shine in performance competition.... Let that dog who has proven himself in the looks department step up and compete in the intelligence, instinct and trainability department. 

Clearly your charming response was not in any way meant to engage me in thoughtful conversation or encourage my endeavors with my dog, but I will respond anyway. Maybe it will be useful to people sitting on the sidelines and reading this thread with interest in an attempt to learn something. As usual I've learned something here, although you might not care to hear what it is.

You will never hear about my 'thriving and successful breeding program" because it is not my goal, and honestly I am not cut out for breeding dogs for various reasons - many of which are directly related to the hours I spent on this forum and praying for and agonizing over the lives of newborn puppies and dogs and people I've never even met. I cried real tears for you and your dogs and others' heart wrenching experiences on this forum and on Facebook and it made me realize that I doubt I have the strength to risk a situation like that. However, if I ever do, it will be with my eyes open to reality. 

In addition, I am not particularly interested in the type of dog that would be typical of GCH. I prefer more moderate type in coat and the bone and movement that is more in keeping with a working dog who is "primarily a hunting dog". Nor would I have resources to spend belaboring a point regarding my dog's looks when there are so many other fascinating and fun challenges to embrace as a partner with my girl. 

Because I do not have unlimited resources in either the financial or free time department and my girl is slower to mature physically, I chose to first focus my efforts on talent and trainability of my dog. Our training time is currently divided pretty evenly between obedience, field and agility training. She has the focus and scope to succeed in all of it, so it is difficult to decide what will happen first. Her progress will be slower due to my learning curve, but she has the ability to carry both of us if I'm patient. 

Just because I am not a big time breeder does not mean that I don't have a thoughtful and informed opinion on the importance of versatility in the breed and how critical is that we produce and breed dogs who look and act and think in a way that supports the original working dog. Ellie is not my first Golden, he was a also a well bred conformation/performance cross who was capable of so much had he come along at a different time in my life. It makes my commitment to Ellie all the stronger and you will hear about her adventures on this forum as we move forward and if the stars align she will not be my last Golden - I will continue to learn. And we will make progress. 

Both of Ellie's parents have OS/OD designation and are CH/MH - GRCA Dual Dog Hall of Fame and her sister is within a few points of that, so I am not too concerned about taking my time with Ellie's obedience and field training and giving her some time to mature physically. Then we assess whether she is shown in conformation or accept that a CCA is the more reasonable goal - time will tell. If it's a CCA, I am confident she will be able to point to at least one, most likely both, of her litter mates as a CH/MH and we will certainly be cheering for them and both of their talented and devoted owner/trainer/handlers every step of the way. They inspire me every day... This odd turn of what was an informative conversation thread has also inspired me to tighten my focus on the versatile quality of my girl, so I honestly thank you for that. 

I can promise you that you will never read about my huge, successful breeding program producing lots of CH/MH dogs in GRCA News but you will hear about me devoting a ton of time and attention to the very special Golden that I have been blessed with. She will have multiple performance titles and chances are she may never be a breed ring CH but she will darn sure have her chance. I won't hold her back or let her breeder down just because I'm so focused on winning and winning in the same venue where she's already proven herself that I can't allow her to shine and show her brilliant mind in competition with other worthy dogs. She is registered to participate at the National for the JH and WC and since we aren't up to the standards we're shooting for in obedience, we will spend the rest of the week skipping around between conformation and obedience and the field trial so we can cheer for her gorgeous and talented siblings. 

I really didn't believe people were like this, but the turn this thread has taken has made it clear there are really people who don't place equal value on the importance of looks and talent in this breed. I still thoroughly convinced that a proven, balanced dog is best for the future of this breed. And the number of people who hold the bar up high really do deserve our thanks no matter if they do it one dog or many dogs at a time. 

I know I won't make a huge dent, but I will try to do my part in my little corner of the world... So it's a pretty safe bet that you will continue seeing the photos of me and Ellie getting out there having fun and enjoying each other while we give performance our best shot and look to conformation when she's fully grown. Maybe by then we can enjoy seeing the photos people post of more GCH dogs giving some evidence of their versatility as well. It will certainly be something to look forward to


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I dislike the expression "titles at both ends" because I think it's misleading. Most people who compete know that the expression refers to both a conformation title and performance/companion titles, but for someone looking at it literally, an OTCH/UDX dog (or a hundred other combinations) fits the bill.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

And THERE'S a cause I'M willing to donate to!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> And THERE'S a cause I'M willing to donate to!


Oh, I'm liking this idea, let's make it a trend - sire's owner donates to expenses of showing his puppies :


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Dear Anney & Jodie,

Thank you for making me laugh. I will set up Ellie's paypal account as soon as she and I come back in from practicing our 'go-outs'. I wish I'd thought of the 'soaking my friends' angle sooner.

See you in October,
Kristy


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

hotel4dogs said:


> Yes and no. There are breeders out there who breed "pet puppies" but believe that the people getting pets are every bit as deserving of getting a true Golden retriever, that is, one with a wonderful temperament, smart, calm, trainable, and structurally sound as people looking for performance dogs. Many of them do look for titles on both ends of the name for their stud dogs, to be sure that they are not compromising the breed.


My impression is that it is more common to see dogs with titles on both ends in studs, than bitches, correct? Add into showing/training being in heat and having puppies, they don't have as much opportunity for achieving those titles. I think this goes along with what you are saying about stud dogs, right?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, it is more common to see it in the stud dogs, I'm sure you're right because of heat cycles and breedings. Also, stud dogs are a dime a dozen. Some people, although not everyone, believe that titles help to show that the stud dog is worth another look. It is the bitch's owner who gets to pick the stud dog, not the other way around.
But there are some mighty impressive bitches out there right now, too  . As Jill pointed out, there really are breeders who are trying hard to bring the versatility back into the breed.
From the 2012 National Specialty...

"In our past, lies our future"





lhowemt said:


> My impression is that it is more common to see dogs with titles on both ends in studs, than bitches, correct? Add into showing/training being in heat and having puppies, they don't have as much opportunity for achieving those titles. I think this goes along with what you are saying about stud dogs, right?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

This is from the GRCA's website, it's the first statement on the home page: 
(Golden Retriever Club of America GRCA: The Official AKC National Breed Club). Emphasis mine:

Welcome to the 
Golden Retriever Club of America

*The Golden Retriever is a very versatile cheerful dog that enjoys participating in many activities and events. Our responsibility is to promote the temperament, appearance, soundness, natural retrieving and hunting abilities of the Golden Retriever.* Our members are dedicated to the responsible breeding and ownership of the Golden Retriever. We advance and protect the interests of the breed through events, education, The Golden Retriever Foundation, research and Golden Rescue


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

*Question!*



hotel4dogs said:


> Yes, it is more common to see it in the stud dogs, I'm sure you're right because of heat cycles and breedings. Also, stud dogs are a dime a dozen. Some people, although not everyone, believe that titles help to show that the stud dog is worth another look. It is the bitch's owner who gets to pick the stud dog, not the other way around.


Barb and other knowledgeable dog lovers...a stupid question from a long time owner of dogs from championship lines. Until today I had never heard the term, "title at both ends" and didn't know it meant titles in both conformation and field.

Take a deep breath, because this is going to sound very stupid of those of you who have made dogs your lives for years, but for a dog to become a champion must he win only conformation titles or field titles as well? My Newfoundland and my Golden had Champions in their pedigrees, but I never really knew if the "CH" meant conformation only or also field. I do know that I should be deciphering all the letters following the name to see if the dog (or bitch in the case of my Golden) has an ancestor with a specific talent. Brit's dam, if I remember correctly, was a CD (Companion Dog?).

NewfieMom


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No, it's a very logical question and some of us, especially me, have been misusing the term "titles at both ends", using it in the common usage rather than the correct one.

Titles at both ends is a term that really means titles in both companion and performance events (agility, obedience, field, herding, tracking, rally, etc) and titles in conformation (CH, GCH, CCA).

But as Jodie pointed out, it's really not correct because other titles can precede the name, and one of the conformation titles (issued by GRCA, not AKC) comes after it, which is the CCA.

With the exception of the CT (Champion tracker) title, all titles which precede the name are the highest level title in that venue and MUST BE EARNED IN A COMPETITIVE VENUE. That's why they precede the name, they were earned by beating a prescribed number of other dogs in that venue. (I could be wrong about the CT title, but I believe it is not competitive). Hence the titles OTCH (obedience trial champion), MACH (master agility champion), FC (field champion), AFC (amateur field champion) and so on actually precede the name, although they are from companion and performance sports. 

The titles which follow the name are those which can be earned by meeting a certain standard, without ever having to beat another dog competitively. So hunt test titles, obedience titles, agility titles, etc. except for the highest level "champion" title, all follow the name.

A dog who has the following titles:

CH OTCH MACH FC Fido the Supreme 

would be an incredibly amazing, unheard of dog, even though the titles are all before the name. It would be much, much more impressive than a dog with the titles:

CH Fifi the Great UD MX MJ JH

Clear as mud??




NewfieMom said:


> Barb and other knowledgeable dog lovers...a stupid question from a long time owner of dogs from championship lines. Until today I had never heard the term, "title at both ends" and didn't know it meant titles in both conformation and field.
> 
> Take a deep breath, because this is going to sound very stupid of those of you who have made dogs your lives for years, but for a dog to become a champion must he win only conformation titles or field titles as well? My Newfoundland and my Golden had Champions in their pedigrees, but I never really knew if the "Ch" meant conformation only or also field. I do know that I should be deciphering all the letters following the name to see if the dog (or bitch in the case of my Golden) has an ancestor with a specific talent. Brit's dam, if I remember correctly, was a CD (Companion Dog?).
> 
> NewfieMom


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And to answer your other question, no, Goldens don't need to have even a baby level title in field to become a CH. A CH (or GCH) before the name merely means that the dog has won enough points in the breed ring to become a conformation champion, or grand champion, also called a "bench champion". It's something that people have suggested addressing, but the logistics of it are virtually impossible.
Labrador Retriever Club of America doesn't recognize a CH title on a Lab unless they have at least a WC (working certificate) in field. But what happened is the Labrador WC has become so dumbed down that a three legged beagle with his eyes closed could probably pass it, and the whole point of it is ruined.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think Kristy is already spending the time getting her girlie trained for field. The money spent will be entry fees... but I believe based on what I've heard - that it isn"t going to be as expensive for her as it would for a dog who has had very little introduction to field prior to 2 years or whatnot. The instincts and drive her pup was born with thanks to her CH/MH parents have been maintained and cultivated thanks to Kristy. 

Other thing - to have a dog qualify for a dual dog hall of fame, you do not have to keep showing to a GCH. You just need the 15 points and 2 majors for a CH. And considering Kristy has the support of her dogs breeders who have done exactly that - she should be just fine. 

More people should be ENCOURAGED do pursue their dreams. That's how we'll get more good people involved with the breed and continuing to maintain this breed's heritage as opposed to letting it slide.






Ljilly28 said:


> I look forward to your successful breeding program of healthy, thriving GCH/MH dogs! It sounds like you are fired up to spend the time and money you need to meet your ideals. Will be cheering for you!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Just off on one note Barb - MACH/PACH are noncompetitive titles. They could be earned without ever getting a placement.

Phoenix has one uncle who is OTCH MACH CT / MH CCA and another that is just one VST pass away from being that 

And the owner of both of those dogs is going to help us train this fall


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I always thought so too, but someone told me that they're considered competitive because you have to compete against the clock or some such thing.....so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt  



Loisiana said:


> Just off on one note Barb - MACH/PACH are noncompetitive titles. They could be earned without ever getting a placement.
> 
> Phoenix has one uncle who is OTCH MACH CT / MH CCA and another that is just one VST pass away from being that
> 
> And the owner of both of those dogs is going to help us train this fall


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> I always thought so too, but someone told me that they're considered competitive because you have to compete against the clock or some such thing.....so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt


 people can make the craziest claims


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh, I agree with you, but I totally pissed off some agility people by commenting that *technically* the MACH should follow the name, not come after it, and that was when I was *corrected* about it not being competitive!
In theory, if you continue to run agility long enough, you can get a MACH, as you said, without ever beating another dog. Whereas you will never get an OTCH or a FC or a CH that way.




Loisiana said:


> people can make the craziest claims


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well for that matter a CT does not need to beat anyone.


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## NewfieMom (Sep 8, 2013)

Barb-

Thank you for taking so much time to explain how things work to me. I don't have a prayer of retaining it, but I think I am going to print it out so that I can refer to it in the future. Maybe, slowly, some of it, at least, will begin to sink in.

I would love having one of Tito's puppies and I do not think I will be getting the chance to get one from his litter with Abby next year. I never showed any of my dogs (which is kind of obvious), but I have been very lucky in having a wonderful Golden and a wonderful Newf from championship dogs who were/are healthy and athletic as well as beautiful. My adopted Lab was, too, but he had major temperament issues. Major! He came from some major field lines (gun dog breeding, I suspect) in the South. Some wild breeding must have taken place down there!

Thanks again.

NewfieMom


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Getting back to the original question. Using my Tiki as an example. Her attributes are that she has a nice neck and good shoulder layback. Beautiful head and expression, jet black pigment , has never faded, even in Winter. She is a tad long in the
loin. She could be better angulated in the rear. Tail comes off her croup correctly. She has a nice side gait. From somewhere she got a somewhat wide front. Certainly not from her mom who was a tad narrow. In any case, the sire of her first litter was known to produce shorter backs and more rear angulation. Those pups got it, but did not get her jet black pigment. The sire of her second litter had already produced Ch and Ch pointed pups in his first litters. Tiki's pups by him were a bit longer in their backs , but have nice rear and front angles that match, plus they have momma's gorgeous black pigment. And although the genetic testing was new when she was being bred both of her daughters are clear for everything as are a grandson and granddaughter. That way, it does not matter what the status is of the sire.

You can study it all the time, it does not seem to me to be an exact science!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

This has been an interesting discussion. I've wondered myself at whether to breed my Lucy. She has some minuses that I'm not sure I would want to see passed on like a personality trait that I know is hereditary and very annoying. I have a friend with a GCH boy that she uses in therapy work at the local hospital. She will not breed him due to his stubbornness, she is fearful of passing it on. He has been an extremely difficult dog to train due to his laziness and stubbornness. But getting that kind of information from a prospective stud owner would be difficult.

There are many titles that are non-competitive like an MH. It is a pass/fail title determined by 2 judges. CCA is also non-competitive determined by 3 judges. FC is a truly competitive title, a dog is rated against other dogs at the event. Those dogs are other breeds also, not just goldens. Ch is also a dog being rated against other dogs at an event, but only against goldens, unless they win best of breed. GCh is an expansion of the Ch whereas they compete against all goldens of both sexes and move onto other sporting dog winners at a show. (That's as far as I know with GCH since I've never competed that far, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

So knowing what it takes to get that title, whatever it is, should be important to anyone considering breeding their bitch.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Oh and I might add in spite of having "faults". Tiki is a Can Ch and I finished her in the UKC at seven. And her only daughter from her second litter easily passed her CCA. One of the breeder/judges was of the opinion that she could finish in the AKC and offered to mentor her. I just do not see this whole breeding thing as being black or white. I think it all falls into the grey zone.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

PS a lot of time on my hands driving back as a passenger from Philly..


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Time and again people say it..there is no perfect dog. Will there ever be? Not sure, but the standard came from where? A perfect dog? Or was it drawn up as to what to aim towards? 

Some questions that maybe the lady who is a passenger on a longgg car ride may answer??


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

All I know is that my mentor was so critical of her own breeding program that in all of her years as an owner, she only bred three litters... That will not advance change, either..


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

There will never be a perfect dog. NEVER. Although...one might think their dog is perfect, but getting everyone to agree to that is a different story. One might think there dog is short-backed, where another person says long; or short ears compared to long, or shoulders, or fronts, or pasterns, eyes, pigment, coat....too many varieties to get to perfect.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

So how did one come to the conclusion of the standard for goldens if there was no way to attain it?

Trying to understand it..well hurts my head!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

kfayard said:


> There will never be a perfect dog. NEVER. Although...one might think their dog is perfect, but getting everyone to agree to that is a different story. One might think there dog is short-backed, where another person says long; or short ears compared to long, or shoulders, or fronts, or pasterns, eyes, pigment, coat....too many varieties to get to perfect.


That is why I liked the CCA of my Gabby. There was an area I wasn't sure about that universally all judges were in agreement about and they loved it. And I also was in agreement with their criticisms. They put into words what I could see and feel. However, she got a perfect "10" on temperament from all three judges!

I have certainly seen BOB winners whose down and back are not straight or GrCh panting in the ring visibly showing many missing premolars. I have almost picked stud dogs who are on thyroid replacement. I know for some this is not a deal breaker, but for me it was... Just one more thing to worry about. Throw in longevity,PU, clearances, trainability, optigen testing, temperament, there is so much to go wrong every step of the way.

An interesting thing with the co mingling to test the dogs in the CCA: Gabby was in a group with another intact bitch and a wild intact male. Just before we started, the other bitch's owner was working her in obedience with food. Gabby was nowhere near her, but she got possessive of the food and went after Gabby. I thought " Oh great" for the group exercise. In that exercise, the male, of course stuck his nose where it did not belong. Gabby ignored him, she is used to it. The other bitch snapped at him, but still passed,as they considered her reaction appropriate to an inappropriate male.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> So how did one come to the conclusion of the standard for goldens if there was no way to attain it?
> 
> Trying to understand it..well hurts my head!


Because IMO, interpreting the standard is somewhat subjective. And then their are a judges' or owner or breeders own pet peeves. My second golden came from a breeder who said she would "die" if a dog she bred had a gay tail. I have breeder friends who abhor any kind of runny eye. And again using Gabs as an example, at the CCA, two of the judges said her head was stunning. She got a 10 from one and a nine from the other. Third and last judge picks up her ears and literally pulls the pinna taut so it reaches the medial canthus of the opposite eye. I am told that her ears are too long. Given no other cricticism on her head and her score on her head is an 8.5. The two judges who liked her head do judge in AKC shows. So even among them, there is subjectivity and personal preference involved.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I had one breeder judge love Lilly. Gave her really high scores.. Then another breeder/judge was more critical, but truthfully I learned more about Lilly with that one!


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Sungold who is a member did it and it sounded like a real pain...


It was! Never again!


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

Bumping because I've really been enjoying reading this conversation. Anyone have anything else to add?

Many breeders depend to some extent on the intensification of type that can come with varying degrees of linebreeding, but most also incorporate the occasional outcross. How can/should outcrosses be most productively incorporated into breeding programs? Any rules of thumb?


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Great question! Thanks for adding. Been busy! Will update later with some more news!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

flatcoated said:


> Bumping because I've really been enjoying reading this conversation. Anyone have anything else to add?
> 
> Many breeders depend to some extent on the intensification of type that can come with varying degrees of linebreeding, but most also incorporate the occasional outcross. How can/should outcrosses be most productively incorporated into breeding programs? Any rules of thumb?


 I will add this and I know most people reading this probably know how much time and dedication it takes in choosing a stud dog. I have (no lie) been looking into 1 particular stud dog for 2 years!! Will he finally be the one I choose for my girl's last breeding? Not sure! My head :bowl: ALL the time! 

Is he a nice dog? Absolutely! But there are so so many other things than looking into a stud dog rather than structure and style.

For me, The first thing I look at is if I think they (structurally) will have what Remi needs. Then I look at clearances.....I go over this for a long time. Look up parents, offspring. I write down everything that I might have an issue with in the clearance department and then I will contact the stud dog, if I am still interested and ask questions. Sometimes, I will contact a person/breeder that has used the stud dog previously. 

I ask about temperament. I ask about the questions I have about clearances or if they knew when and how "fluffy" died. 

After that has been discussed, I talk about his great qualities and what he might bring to the future puppies. What does the owner of the stud dog feel like the dog needs improvement on? Because we know...NO dog is perfect.

Is the owner of the stud dog easy to work with and get along with? How is the semen quality? When was it last checked? Has it been shipped before? 

My number 1 goal is health, then temperament/structure. All of it ranks really close, but I will not breed to a dog that has parents that have died young or uncles...etc. 

Can it be a crap shoot? Sure, But I will not knowingly breed to that. I will never say, I didn't do my best. 

Some of my favorite dogs, may not necessarily be my favorite dogs for my bitch. I like dogs and then I look them up on K9data and I say no way. So, it is upsetting as far as everything I typically like (structurally) I would never breed my bitch too. I always make a UGH..of course I like this dog..

There are many beautiful goldens out today, you just have to do the best you can with what you are dealt with. If you are honest, people will see that. Puppy homes appreciate that and the golden community, right now, needs more honest people.

Done with my rant! :uhoh:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

To follow up on what Kelli just said.... just wanted to say that chatting with her on what she's looking for as far as her girl's potentially last breeding has been eye-opening and educational for me. 

Like many people.... I kinda fall into the trap of really liking dogs because of two categories - what they look to me when I've been in the same ring with them and also based on what they've accomplished. <- I've criticized people who have lined up potential litter pedigrees based on titles alone or big names alone (because whatever else I don't know, I do know that some of the ugliest dogs get nice titles and without knowing anything about your dog vs the dog you're breeding to, you might be breeding flaw to flaw to double up or worsen that flaw), but my goodness I did just that myself!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Yep, and the dog that I might use is older and has never been a Top show dog... But, that does not matter to me. I have found many dogs that I like that no one probably has never heard of. I like to think outside the box. I know breeder who just breed to a dog because there friends have used a particular dog, so they will use him. They do not think for themselves...

I can not tell breeders who do breed to and honestly it is none of my business. I just try the best I can and I know many breeders who are doing the same. I am new to the breeding world, but there is soooo much information to know and discuss. IF we do not continue to discuss the problems in the breed...what is going on health wise, will only get worse!


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