# Help with Place and Stay



## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

Fannin and I are currently enrolled in an "off leash basics" course where we start doing basic obedience commands with an electronic stimulation collar (Note: it's not a shock collar. Our instructor had us put it on our palm to see what each level felt like.. it's more like what they use in physical therapy to stimulate muscles). We only use the collar when we say commands (such as come, heel, sit, etc) and NEVER use it as a negative thing. 

I'm having the same problem I had in basic obedience and that is getting Fannin to "stay" in his place as I walk away. Momma's boy doesn't like the idea of being more than 5 steps away from me. Last week in class I was the only one not able to "answer the door" with Fannin in place. He doesn't seem to care at all about the knocking (he's the only one who doesn't bark!) but after I put him in place, get him to sit, and start backing to the door (I'm still facing him) he jumps off his place. Even with me giving him the stay command. Even if I put 100 treats on place. 

Does anyone have any advice on what I can do to practice this? He is already attached to the wall during class and when we practice at home I tie his lead to the sofa leg so he can't get to me. We practice for about 10 minutes a day but he just can't seem to let me get to the door.

In thanks for ANY advice here is a picture of us practicing place in the park Wednesday. I was only 5 feet away.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'd like to help, but I feel like a lot of my advice might be counterproductive because I don't know what e-collar methodology you're using. A lot of dogs will seek social contact when they're uncomfortable, so stimming him may not work well as a stay method. It might just be making him feel more and more like he needs to stick with you.

If you can describe a bit more of what you're doing with stay, maybe I can help you work on it, but if I explained to you how I teach stay, I feel like it would only confuse Fannin, since I don't use negative reinforcement for it.


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## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

So to get him to place I say the word "place" and as I say the word I hit the ecollar button and show him where place is. Once he gets there he gets a treat and "good place" then I ask him to "sit" and I hit the button as I say "sit". (If I have to repeat commands I hit the button as I say the word) Once he sits he gets a treat and "good sit" then I tell him to stay and give him a hand signal (we don't use the ecollar for stay). If he comes off place I say "eh eh" and say "Place" and hit the button again until he gets back on (no treat) "good place" and we start all over.

We don't really do negative enforcement just want the collar to be an extension of the verbal command (like a hand signal).

He will totally stay if I am standing within about 5 feet of him. We had an exercise in basic obedience where we said "stay" and pulled on the collar and they had to stay. Fannin nailed it.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I hate to say this as I never agree with Tippy (sometimes on purpose  ) but I do agree somewhat with him. 

I don't see how buzzing your dog every time you give him a command is not giving that command a negative spin. 

I guess I'll throw this in here in case it will help.....

To teach stays, I will sit the dog and give a relaxing stroke on the head and shoulders, tell him stay in a firm voice, and gradually/over time increase the distance between him and me as he is successful. I return to his side, give a treat reward and praise while the dog is still in a stay. I then release him from the stay with a verbal release and a light touch on the head or shoulders. 

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why you would be zapping or buzzing your dog with every command. That's a hideous concept to me.

To correct, I generally just say "no" and quietly and firmly put the dog exactly back in place and leave again. Again, while just training the initial steps, I really do not do heavy correction or do anything that would increase my dog's discomfort and insecurity.


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## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

Megora said:


> I see absolutely no reason whatsoever why you would be zapping or buzzing your dog with every command. That's a hideous concept to me.


I don't think it's really zapping or buzzing him. It's kind of like tapping him on the shoulder saying "dude, I gave you a command". The first day of class we had to find the lowest setting our dog would respond to. The scale on ours is 1-7 with "low" "medium" and "high" on each one of those settings. In the palm of my hand I could barely feel 2 low. I made it up to 7 high and didn't think it really hurt that much (I have a high tolerance). Fannin inside is on a 2 low and Fannin outside (more distractions) is a 2 medium. 

If I really thought it was hurting him no way would I take this class. This is more about getting his attention when he is far away from me (it has a one mile radius) and being able to get him to do commands while distracted (current favorites are squirrels).

Edit to say I also am ok with advice that has nothing to do with the ecollar because we have problems doing this with or without it.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I guess I don't really understand the whole ecollar training part of this BUT this is how we learned to teach stay in my obedience class and now we've got a rock solid stay 

Put your dog in a sit on your left side. Do the stay signal with your hand and say "Stay" in a firm voice. Pivot in front of your dog. Then pivot back into the side position. Then back away and say you're release word while treating. We use "That'll do" for our release word since it's not that common of a phrase. You keep doing this for about a week or so because you really want the dog to understand that stay means don't move. After the foundation is set you start adding distance and distractions (ONE AT A TIME!!!). For us we chose distance first. So we'd pivot in front and back up a few steps, then walk back into starting position, then release the dog. Then, we eliminated the pivot and just said the command and walked away. This added a new element because our back was to the dog. I'm sure you get the idea. You just add new elements slowly. 

What to do when the dog doesn't stay? When you're just starting out since you're close to the dog you pull up on the leash slightly if they move from the sit position. This usually puts them back in a sit. (Its not a jerk and you're not trying to choke the dog, you're just trying to use a motion that gets them into a sit - kinda like putting a treat above their nose to get their butt to drop). If this doesn't get them to sit I just push their bottom into a sit. You don't give the signal again, you don't say the command again. They need to learn that you say it once and they listen. After they're back in sit, you pivot back to the starting position, then use the release word. It might take a couple of tries, but you'll see it click in the dogs head. 

When you're starting to add distance/distractions you'll need a helper to hold the leash/collar. That way when the dog moves he just falls back into the sit (kinda like what you're doing with the wall). It'll click in his head "oh, if i sit here and wait then my person will come back with a really yummy treat!". 

The biggest thing is to not repeat the command. 

Last thing: Occasionally when I'm working on stay with Oliver he'll break if something too distracting happens. I just go back to him and put him back into sit or down stay and then start over. I don't say stay again I just put him back in a stay and do a shorter distance and then release. If he breaks its because I did too much too soon with him. 

I hope this helps!

Side note: we also teach both stay and wait. stay for us is they do not move *until we get back to that starting position* and release them. wait is they stay in that position until we release them or give them a new command - wherever we may be at that moment.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hockeybelle31 said:


> So to get him to place I say the word "place" and as I say the word I hit the ecollar button and show him where place is. Once he gets there he gets a treat and "good place" then I ask him to "sit" and I hit the button as I say "sit". (If I have to repeat commands I hit the button as I say the word) Once he sits he gets a treat and "good sit" then I tell him to stay and give him a hand signal (we don't use the ecollar for stay). If he comes off place I say "eh eh" and say "Place" and hit the button again until he gets back on (no treat) "good place" and we start all over.
> 
> We don't really do negative enforcement just want the collar to be an extension of the verbal command (like a hand signal).
> 
> He will totally stay if I am standing within about 5 feet of him. We had an exercise in basic obedience where we said "stay" and pulled on the collar and they had to stay. Fannin nailed it.


I do tend to debate e-collar stuff in other threads, but I really just want to be helpful here instead of getting totally into the issue. But I really have no idea what the thought process is that this training system uses. Obviously, you're not the one who invented it, so I'm not criticizing you, but I really can't understand the mentality here. If I were a young dog, I'd be super confused by the tickle at my collar in the context you describe, and no matter how gentle it is, I'd be trying to get it to stop. If I were a velcro dog, I'd go right to the human I trust in the hopes that she could shut it off.

It's also very confusing that the tap goes with commands but then a steady stim is used to teach him he's in the wrong place and only goes off when he's back to the right place (classic negative reinforcement).

I really wish I could help, but I literally have no idea how to do a stay better in this context. I don't see anywhere that the dog is positively reinforced.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

OK, I will start with advice that has nothing to do with the collar because I am completely unfamiliar with this form of training. 

With Alli, I began by putting her in her place and telling her to stay and only back away maybe one foot. I would always walk back to her and praise, treat and release her. I slowly increased the distance between us. If I got to a point where she wouldn't stay, I would decrease the distance again and start over. 
One thing that I found that I was doing, was to back away from her. I didn't turn my back on her because I didn't trust that she would stay when I wasn't looking. At our class, our instructor told me to turn around and not face her, to walk away with confidence. It was easier to do in class because if she broke stay, he told me immediately and she was quickly put back into position. She only broke stay once, after that she stayed like a pro and I had the confidence to walk away knowing that she would stay. I do believe that my confidence level had a lot to do with it. I now have the confidence in her abilities and that seems to make all of the difference. 

I don't use an e collar. I am neither for nor against them. I think that different methods work for different dogs. If I am using a method that doesn't work, I switch methods. The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect different results. If this method is working for you, by all means continue. If it isn't it may benefit you to look into an alternative.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I am ashamed to say I never taught Molly "place".. Until last night. She seriously got it in minutes but I think it is because she has done a lot of work on a pedestal (front paws up) and a sit platform (sitting on a square made exactly to fit her butt) for other things, so she understood quickly that I wanted her on her bed, lying down. 

If I were teaching "place" without any background with the pedestal or the platform, I would focus on getting the dog on the mat and then work on getting the dog to understand it cannot leave without the release cue. Get the dog on the mat, praise/treat, release, and repeat. Slowly increase the time before he is released. 

When I taught the mat last night, I did not use the word stay. She was only allowed to get off when I released her, but she already understood the concept of waiting to be released. She also already had a solid stay/wait. 

Stays (in general, without a mat) -- If he does okay at 5 feet away, reinforce that many, many times at that distance, and then slowly increase to 6 feet. Build distance slowly. Also, I would not back up away from the dog. Leave the dog by walking normally. 


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I also won't debate the e-collar thing but I will say that I taught all of my dogs the way Coaraujo explained.
I know with 100% certainty that even though Ky has a rock solid stay, if she felt even a buzz the first thing she would do is jump up to investigate the perp, the first thing Bentley would do is run to me. 
Good luck.


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## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

coaraujo said:


> Side note: we also teach both stay and wait. stay for us is they do not move *until we get back to that starting position* and release them. wait is they stay in that position until we release them or give them a new command - wherever we may be at that moment.


Yes! We do that too! Thanks for all the info on how you did stay as well. We did a similar thing and he will let me step back and walk a circle around him but it's when I try to make a straight line away from him he breaks from stay.


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## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

Bentleysmom said:


> I also won't debate the e-collar thing but I will say that I taught all of my dogs the way Coaraujo explained.
> I know with 100% certainty that even though Ky has a rock solid stay, if she felt even a buzz the first thing she would do is jump up to investigate the perp, the first thing Bentley would do is run to me.
> Good luck.


I kind of wish I didn't even mention the stupid collar. I really didn't know this is like food and is so hotly debated. Do you think everyone would forget it if I delete this thread and make a new one??  Only kind of joking there.

We spent most of the first class getting them used to the collar and treating like crazy. I mean we probably went through a bag of Zuke's that first day just showing him that it wasn't a bad thing. Even putting the collar on he gets a handful and lots of love. He actually likes getting to put on...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

hockeybelle31 said:


> Yes! We do that too! Thanks for all the info on how you did stay as well. We did a similar thing and he will let me step back and walk a circle around him but it's when I try to make a straight line away from him he breaks from stay.


Oliver had trouble with that too at first! The difference of having my back to him really confused him. For that my trainer just held him by the collar while he sat. I said "Stay" gave the hand signal and walked away. My trainer told me to make sure I walked away super confident (I'm not sure if this helps, but I made sure to do it anyways). I'd walk across the room minding my own business while she held him and then turn around and wait for him to stop squirming around. As soon as he was just sitting in a stay I'd walk back over and release him. I'm not sure if you've tried this, but maybe this will help. You might also want to try doing only a short distance walking away - like just a few steps, then turn around and walk back. Definitely have someone holding him in place though, this was the only way we could get it to click in Oliver's head. I literally could see his brain thinking with it clicked lol. Otherwise I would say maybe he's just not ready for that element yet. Go back to reinforcing the stays you have right now. It might be too much too soon. I feel like going "too slowly" (if that makes sense) with Stay is worth it. I'd rather not rush such an important command.

I sometimes will add a "EH-EH" in there if I don't have someone holding the leash/collar. If i see Oliver even think about moving I say "EH-EH" and he doesn't move. Its actually pretty funny because he'll like twitch. He'll forget he's not supposed to move and be like "crap" and correct himself. This happens a lot with the elevator in our apartment building. Its a huge distraction for him, especially since we never really know when its coming (can range from 30 seconds to like 3 minutes). He'll get so excited its here he'll forget he's in a wait/stay. Sometime he'll look at me and correct himself before I even say "Eh-Eh". That one will take us a little time before he's got it rock solid.


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## Seagodess (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm not against the e-collar thing. From what you described it doesn't sound like its a negitive thing. I'm just kind of confused of what the point of it is. I mean I know that when you buzz it (or whatever it is) it is supposed to get the dog to pay attention to you. What I'm confused about is, is it something that the dog is going to have on at all times? If not, then wont he get confused when he doesn't have it and you try to tell him to do these things? I dont know. Anyways...
Milla is my first puppy and has not been in any sort of training class. We are training her ourselves for now. We are just working on the very basic stuff for now. Sit, lay down, stay, shake... she also does high five which we didn't even train her to do :. For stay the way I am doing it is telling her to sit, treat. Then I say stay, treat. I walk a couple steps away and continue to say stay. As long as she stays, I toss a treat at her feet. I continue to go farther and farther. I do continue to say stay as well as I am walking. I can now usually get out of her view (we are in the house) and she will stay as long as she hears me. I'm no expert, thats just how I read to do it, so I tried it and it seems to be working so far. We haven't tried it outside yet since i dont want to take her off her leash outside as she might run off.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Seagodess said:


> I'm not against the e-collar thing. From what you described it doesn't sound like its a negitive thing. I'm just kind of confused of what the point of it is. I mean I know that when you buzz it (or whatever it is) it is supposed to get the dog to pay attention to you. What I'm confused about is, is it something that the dog is going to have on at all times? If not, then wont he get confused when he doesn't have it and you try to tell him to do these things? I dont know. Anyways...
> Milla is my first puppy and has not been in any sort of training class. We are training her ourselves for now. We are just working on the very basic stuff for now. Sit, lay down, stay, shake... she also does high five which we didn't even train her to do :. For stay the way I am doing it is telling her to sit, treat. Then I say stay, treat. I walk a couple steps away and continue to say stay. As long as she stays, I toss a treat at her feet. I continue to go farther and farther. I do continue to say stay as well as I am walking. I can now usually get out of her view (we are in the house) and she will stay as long as she hears me. I'm no expert, thats just how I read to do it, so I tried it and it seems to be working so far. We haven't tried it outside yet since i dont want to take her off her leash outside as she might run off.


This is how I had seen to teach stay before I started obedience class. Our trainer warned us that doing it this way could be confusing for the dog because it can't really learn that stay means (stay put until I release) because you keep repeating the word. Like how would the dog know how long to "stay" for if the word is constantly said. and how does the dog know to stay when you're no longer in the room to keep saying it? She has a dog that she started training the way I said above and then switched to this method (considered the purely positive method of teaching stay) and the dog completely lost its stay. Her other dog she stuck with the other method and it won't move from its stay until she releases him. She's left him in stay at a training center when she had to run an errand in another town. The dog didn't move the whole entire time she was gone - until she got back and released him. 

I'm sure other people have been successful with this method, but I didn't want to risk not having a rock-solid stay so I took the advice of my trainer on this one. Just wanted to put the friendly advice out there :wavey:!


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I use an ecollar, but have to admit, teaching stay with the collar doesn't make much sense to me either. Someone would have to explain why and how it works. 


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I agree.. Only say "stay" ONCE.


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## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

Maybe I should say that we already had to take basic without the collar before being eligible for the off leash. Off leash is really to strengthen what we learned in basic so that I feel comfortable when he is running off leash that he will respond to me.

We aren't using the collar for the stay part, just the place. He gets on place fine but stay has always been difficult for him. He doesn't like being separated from me (including a baby gate) and it is just something I needed advice on what else I could do. 

Thanks to those who offered advice! I will try all of the above.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I must be spoiled with Rose - but we did practice quite a lot the sit/stay. We started in my bedroom, she would sit on the bed and I would walk around the bed and then release her with a big play time on the bed. We moved over in the kitchen and did the same. Now she can sit/stay in the hallway while I go in the kitchen, pass her to go in the basement, come back up and pass her again to the bedroom, I tell her to mark the dental bone then I go and put her dental bone on the floor, pass her again and as I walk out the door to go to work I release her to go get her bone. I never did a "go to place" her place is always next to me and we go from there.


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## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> I must be spoiled with Rose - but we did practice quite a lot the sit/stay. We started in my bedroom, she would sit on the bed and I would walk around the bed and then release her with a big play time on the bed. We moved over in the kitchen and did the same. Now she can sit/stay in the hallway while I go in the kitchen, pass her to go in the basement, come back up and pass her again to the bedroom, I tell her to mark the dental bone then I go and put her dental bone on the floor, pass her again and as I walk out the door to go to work I release her to go get her bone. I never did a "go to place" her place is always next to me and we go from there.


That is awesome! And also something I aspire to do with Fannin. I know it will take time and patience so I will keep plugging along.


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

coaraujo said:


> Side note: we also teach both stay and wait. stay for us is they do not move *until we get back to that starting position* and release them. wait is they stay in that position until we release them or give them a new command - wherever we may be at that moment.


Thank you for this. I've been teaching "stay" and releasing with "come" since Harry can handle a pretty good distance now. I couldn't figure out how to teach a stay until I come back. Your suggestion makes much more sense than what I've been doing.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

hockeybelle31 said:


> He doesn't like being separated from me (including a baby gate) and it is just something I needed advice on what else I could do.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Maybe rewarding him with love and affection will get you farther? Like when you do the stays where you walk away with your back to him - when he performs the stay reward him with extra attention and petting. Maybe if he realizes when he stays he gets even MORE of your attention he'll think staying is worth it, even if it means a little time without you.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

hockeybelle31 said:


> Maybe I should say that we already had to take basic without the collar before being eligible for the off leash. Off leash is really to strengthen what we learned in basic so that I feel comfortable when he is running off leash that he will respond to me.
> 
> We aren't using the collar for the stay part, just the place. He gets on place fine but stay has always been difficult for him. He doesn't like being separated from me (including a baby gate) and it is just something I needed advice on what else I could do.
> 
> Thanks to those who offered advice! I will try all of the above.


Ok. Thanks for clarifying. That makes more sense. 

Do you have your dog stay while waiting for meals? That's how we got started, and I think it helped. It didn't take long before she would just automatically sit. I still make sure to issue the stay command though. That's a minimum of two sit stays per day since she was about 10 weeks old. Has she been perfect? No, but pretty good. She had a recent two week stretch where we had to do many, many short stays of all kinds to get it drilled in her head. It was kind a a rebellious phase. In some ways, she's still in that phase.....


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## hockeybelle31 (Jun 7, 2012)

Nairb said:


> Ok. Thanks for clarifying. That makes more sense.
> 
> Do you have your dog stay while waiting for meals? That's how we got started, and I think it helped. It didn't take long before she would just automatically sit. I still make sure to issue the stay command though. That's a minimum of two sit stays per day since she was about 10 weeks old. Has she been perfect? No, but pretty good. She had a recent two week stretch where we had to do many, many short stays of all kinds to get it drilled in her head. It was kind a a rebellious phase. In some ways, she's still in that phase.....
> 
> ...


We do sit, look at me, ok at dinner. He has to look at me for 5-10 seconds before he is released and can eat. We also do just a wait at doors. I get to go through first and he has to wait for ok. 

We just practiced stay on a rock again and I got 15-20 feet away!! I gave him tons of treats, praise, and rubs. I think he thought he won the lottery


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