# How happy are you...



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

...with the lines your dog takes and holds over distance? How happy are with your dog's lines in the presence of marks?

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

They could be better. He takes a nice line but flairs when he reaches the AOF, don't know what's up with that. Dooley is getting better since we started working angle backs and lengthening his marks to the 180 range.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Needs work over 200 or so but don't have the tools right now to deal with it at 6 mos. But we are working on it.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I actually have been impressed that Gabby has gotten better on her go outs to marks. They have gotten more straight, and she has been right on top of them with little to no hunting. It's her come backs that we are in need of help with right now. In the test environment, she knows she only has a couple ducks to play with. Homework time.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

funny you should ask that, we were talking about that at my pro's today.
On a cold blind, he'll hold a nice straight line for about 85 yards. After that he seems to start to veer off, depending on the factors involved. I'm supposed to be stretching him to 150 yards or more now. That may take a while.
On marks, he's straight for 200+ yards, even with some serious cover changes and factors. 
We were talking about "focus" and dogs, how it's a mixed blessing. When he runs a mark, his focus is a total asset. He locks in on that mark, and runs straight to it, pretty much regardless of what's in his way.
BUT when he locks in on something other than what I want him to, for example, the wrong pole when swimming across the pond to one or the other bumper pile, it's very hard to pull him off it. So in that case, his focus is a huge liability. 
Somehow I seem to have gotten off the line of the original question...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

So, those who _are_ happy: Blinds too?

Those who _aren't_: What are you doing about it?

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I kind of alluded to it in my post. We are doing more angle back throws and lengthening our marks. What do you recommend?


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

No blind work here yet... too new.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

One thing we're doing is re-visiting some lining drills, as I'm trying to be more aware of where his spine is aligned before sending him. Sometimes he carries the line, but it might not be the right line because I had his spine not quite in the right direction.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

After yesterday pretty darn happy.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Lines to marks is a wider category than lines to blinds. For now I'll address developing lines to marks because that's where this type of skill should start. I begin with a now popular exercise known as “Cheating Singles”. No, it’s not about dating!

They are a single thrown mark, but with a route designed to illicit a cheat. In their more basic form, the “cheat” should be very ‘black & white’, and isolated. The one I use most often in early Transition is what I call a “Corner Cheater”, and the distance is usually well under 100 yards, and arranged to be run on the corner of a pond with a clean shoreline with maximum visibility. It looks like this.






 
This gives the developing dog its first formal focus on the actual straightness of its route. I do this before other forms of de-cheating, like de-flaring. That’s a start. Is anyone not clear on this?

EvanG


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Evan I am clear on the concept. However you state 'transition' work so that means the dog is capable of handling? My young'un is only early on her casting exercises (back and over) none at any distance. She would cheat that mark if I tried it with her. She cheated on one less tempting yesterday. We have not addressed cheating with her in training yet as I can't do anything about it. We just try to set the marks so she does not cheat. I fixed the mark when I re ran it yesterday. Moved my start location.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> Evan I am clear on the concept. However you state 'transition' work so that means the dog is capable of handling?


Yes. Handling is the language we actually can share with our dogs to convey our desires to them. The do not and will not ever speak English, but they sure comprehend behavior. The skills of handling send a clear message: "No, not _that_ way; _this_ way!".


Maxs Mom said:


> My young'un is only early on her casting exercises (back and over) none at any distance. She would cheat that mark if I tried it with her. She cheated on one less tempting yesterday. We have not addressed cheating with her in training yet as I can't do anything about it. We just try to set the marks so she does not cheat. I fixed the mark when I re ran it yesterday. Moved my start location.


At the level your dog is, your job right now is to give her all the marks you can, and keep working on Basics. But go the extra mile to assure that there are no temptations to cheat. Strictly non-cheating work; land & water for now.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Dennis Voigt has a drill quite similar, only it's done on land with corners of heavy cover. It was the "marking drill of the month" in one of the magazines, but the person who sent me that drill didn't tell me which one....


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

My boy is only 4mos old and I am really happy with his lines and marks. He is right on top of the fall up to about 12-15yrds. We have tried a few at a longer distance and he needed help to succeed. So I am keeping him at the above distance to ensure that he succeeds at every mark. His lines are straight going out and coming back. I have only had a few times of doing water retrieves with him but no cheating there either.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I must be doing something right because both of my guys are lovely lining dogs on blinds. I love running LONG LONG blinds, 200+ yards and just letting them roll. 
Wish us luck that Fisher takes nice long lines at the field trial on Monday 
Headed to the National tomorrow. Hope everyone here is doing well.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> My boy is only 4mos old and I am really happy with his lines and marks. He is right on top of the fall up to about 12-15yrds.


At 4 months old, and at 15 yards, lining is a non-issue. Hard to imagine poor lines at that distance, but it wouldn't be an issue if they weren't sterling.

i commend you for not running excess distance, and instead building confidence. Distance is no big trick, and doing it too early can cause several real problems. Hang in there and take your time! 

At that age you can safely build your distance gradually to around 50 yards or so with no side issues.

EvanG


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## TrailDogs (Aug 15, 2011)

I am very happy with the lines I am getting. We are only doing marks as she is 6 mos. old and the distances are in the 70 to 120 yard range. Due to lots of rain, everywhere we train has lots of high cover so I am not pushing for any distance. The marks are difficult enough due to the terrain and cover. She takes beautiful lines right to the mark. 
On water she will do angle entries but I move her right to the edge. If there is any long land entry I make the entry straight in and and a very visible bumper when she gets to the water so there is no confusion as to where she is going. 
I also use channels because I have them available and they seem to give her a good picture of where she needs to be, land vs. water. I have kept the channel swims in the 40 -50 yard range so I am not sure if it is just her momentum and focus keeping her in the center or if she really is getting the idea.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Best of luck on Monday, I'll be thinking of you, PLEASE jump on the forum and post an update, even if it's only a couple of words!



K9-Design said:


> I must be doing something right because both of my guys are lovely lining dogs on blinds. I love running LONG LONG blinds, 200+ yards and just letting them roll.
> Wish us luck that Fisher takes nice long lines at the field trial on Monday
> Headed to the National tomorrow. Hope everyone here is doing well.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

We were doing longer runs when we were at training but that has ended now becasue of hunting season. I can do these smaller runs in my yard. Other wise I need to ask permission from area farmers to use their fields and that doesnt have much for cover or even different terrian.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

The impression I'm getting is that a majority of you are training pups and dogs in Basics, rather than transitional/handling dogs. For those in transition, who are working on lines to blinds, there is much more we can get into if you like.

EvanG


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

General V said:


> We were doing longer runs when we were at training but that has ended now becasue of hunting season. I can do these smaller runs in my yard. Other wise I need to ask permission from area farmers to use their fields and that doesnt have much for cover or even different terrian.


You can use distance (never hurts to stretch them out and they love to run) but use those fields to build confidence and depth perception.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

BaWaaJige is doing great on longer runs. Sunday we went out to the fair grounds and had him doing 50-75yd runs marking in tall grass. It was taller than him in one area and I lost him. Glad my son could see when he had his dokken so I could call him back at the right time.His marks are spot on never more than 2ft from the fall when he starts looking/nose work. 

I do not use an e-collar or have I forced fetched him. I think we are doing great for his age.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

And what is his age?

EvanG


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

He is 4.5 mos as of yesterday.

I had him out this weekend. We went to a quite lake. I had him sitting on the dock as I threw his dokken in the cattail reeds. His marks were spot on. I ws throwing it about 50ft in and he was about 25ft from the cattails. His searchs were never more than 2minutes. His lines were good except he could jump back up on the dock from the side like he went off too high so he went and walked the end of the dock back to where I was standing. He got distracted once as it is duck seson here and there was gun shots in the distance. He stopped and searched the horizone but turned back to me with a "hey hey"

We are going out today and I plan on doing a longer marks with him. Not sure what it is called but I will have my son start out closer and then make an arc across the field getting longer as he goes. I have not done this yet with him so I will see how it goes.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Called Walking singles you thrower needs to stand on the spot where the bumper landed previously then you will go into Bird Boy Blinds later by just dropping the bumper and walking away from it.
If you use my Mule it becomes MULE SINGLES


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh okay thanks for the name. We did this drill a few times at training before I got my pup. The dogs did good I thought it would be something we could work on while we still have nice weather.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

It is actually a good drill to teach marking coupled with the Y drill. Which can be done with one helper also.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> He is 4.5 mos as of yesterday.


It sounds like you’re doing age appropriate fieldwork for a dog at this age. But due to his age, lines are not much of an issue since his skill level won’t allow much refinement yet. That’s just as well for now.

EvanG


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

General V said:


> Oh okay thanks for the name. We did this drill a few times at training before I got my pup. The dogs did good I thought it would be something we could work on while we still have nice weather.


Be sure to throw off of both sides and not one direction all the time. To teach running off both sides of the thrower and not to run behind the thrower.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Yep we did that. I had my son throw both ways. We set up decoys in the field too. He did so good I was so proud of him. The last 2 marks were at 100yds give or take a few feet. 

I am not sure I understand what you mean Evan. 


> But due to his age, lines are not much of an issue since his skill level won’t allow much refinement yet


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

General V said:


> The last 2 marks were at 100yds give or take a few feet.
> 
> I am not sure I understand what you mean Evan.


At 4.5 months of age he's only going 100 yards or so on his long marks, and he doesn't have handling skills yet to teach him factor management. Managing factors en route is how lines are built. It's too soon for a pup that young. Don't worry about it yet. The time for formal Basics will soon arrive, and basic handling skills can be built then.

Then, during Transition, handling skills can be refined, and lining work commenced.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

EvanG said:


> ...with the lines your dog takes and holds over distance? How happy are with your dog's lines in the presence of marks?
> 
> EvanG


I am very happy with my dog's lines over distance. I have never owned a dog like my present one in terms of the lines that she takes. Granted, I am training her for hunt test distances and a little longer but she has done singles to 240 yards. I believe that I am very lucky. I can't say that my training efforts produced this. At best, I may have prevented problems.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

These dogs can make us look good, or look really bad, in spite of what we do as much as because of what we do. But, of course, those times are usually episodes, not patterns. 

gdgli, I don't know how old your dog is, or at what level of development. But I would be interested in knowing if you have run heavily factored lines to blinds at 300+ yards? 

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Evan, my dog is doing basics. I have also done some drills that would be considered transition. Nowhere near ready for a 300 yard blind.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

That's fine. That tells me what I need to know for now. Once your dog has gotten soild at force to pile you can use those mechanics to start teaching short, easy pattern blinds. But take your time, and worry about distance later. Distance is no big trick. It just takes 'know-how'.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Thank you, Evan. I have been taking my time with my dog and have never worried about distance. I want to build a strong foundation at distances that are manageable. I feel that many in my training group push for a big distance much too soon and this has resulted in training issues. I am trying awfully hard to not make a mistake that may be a long time in fixing.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Once you have your handling tools in place the distance is fairly easily accomplished. It's factors in the blind that you will be training for.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

There are essentially 3 reasons/influences that keep dogs from maintaining a straight route. They are what I've identified as 'cardinal influences', and they define all of what are popularly called "factors".

Flare
Suction
Drift
All diversion factors fall under one or a combination of those influences. All the line refinement we do focuses on strengthening our dog's ability to go straight in the presence of those influences. Therefore, all the drill work for this work is focused on those things.

Have any of you run a 16-bumper Wagon Wheel Lining Drill?

EvanG


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