# Bone & Coat



## GoldenSail

As a newbie this is one that always gets me. Often the first thing you see a lot of people comment on about dogs is the bone and coat--people seem to love dogs with lots of bone and coat. BUT--the only thing the standard mentions is 'good bone' once, and this is for the forequarters. And that bone shouldn't be coarse--so what do you guys consider good bone, too coarse, or not enough? (I would assume this is a preference thing).

And then coat...it does not say anything about length other than that it should not be excessive, and that head, paws and legs should be short. Yet there is a lot of desire to have lots of coat.

So I guess the underlying question is--do you think for the most part the amount of bone and coat is largely preference (except in case of coarseness and excessive length)?


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## Ljilly28

I think one of the reasons for that is so, so many goldens are lacking in good bone out and about in the world. I have two of four who are minus the substance to really correlate with good breed type.


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## Ljilly28

To me, this is a good amount of bone and coat, although I have two with much less, one the same, and one with much more. ( I love them all equally,lol). I think he might be a little light in bone for some.

I edited out the photo for a couple hours bc I should have asked permission to use it , and I got nervous! I took the photo myself, but Gabe isn't my dog. I'm going to email and ask if it's okay, which I am sure it will be.


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## hotel4dogs

Pedigree: BISS Am. Ch. Faera's Starlight OS

That's my idea of good bone and coat. Heavy enough in the bone to keep them warm in the frigid duck ponds (according to my field trainer) and with enough coat to stay warm and well insulated but not enough to be tangled in the brush all the time. Jill's example is a lovely dog, but way too much coat for me.....


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## hotel4dogs

FWIW, in the ring I have been under the impression that the judges are checking and concerned more about the type of coat rather than the length. They are looking for good undercoat, and no silkiness to the coat, at least that's what I've felt.


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## Ljilly28

I think most people would agree with you that it's too much coat, but I love it, lol.

He is a Star grandson named Gabe.


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## Ljilly28

In morgan horses and goldens, I like a good, good amount of bone - a really substantial animal, but not clumsy or slow.


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## hotel4dogs

the thought of how much cowboy magic gel it would take to get the cockleburrs out after a romp chasing pheasants makes me shudder! But it sure LOOKS pretty!




Ljilly28 said:


> I think most people would agree with you that it's too much coat, but I love it, lol.
> 
> He is a Star grandson named Gabe.


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## Ljilly28

I agree with Goldensail that some people are taken in by bone and coat, but I think more often people play the "moderate card". They imply their undistingiushed dog doesn't win bc judges reward overdone goldens. 

.


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## hotel4dogs

I agree with what you're saying about the "moderate card". For the most part (with a couple of noted exceptions) we found that judges seemed to be willing to put up an outstanding, moderate dog who could move well. There is nothing overdone nor flashy about Tito, he's just an honest dog that moves nicely.




Ljilly28 said:


> I agree with Goldensail that some people are taken in by bone and coat, but I think more often people play the "moderate card". They imply their undistingiushed dog doesn't win bc judges reward overdone goldens.
> 
> .


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## JDandBigAm

This subject interests me because I see so many lines divided by breed champions and obedience/field/hunt (performance) lines. It seems like the performance lines are sleeker, more agile Goldens and breed ring Goldens have that beautiful bone and coat. I'm on a quest for the next year to find a line that is superb in both breed and performance. I got close with Jonah although I don't think he will make it to the breed ring and will focus on just obedience.


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## Ljilly28

hotel4dogs said:


> I agree with what you're saying about the "moderate card". For the most part (with a couple of noted exceptions) we found that judges seemed to be willing to put up an outstanding, moderate dog who could move well. There is nothing overdone nor flashy about Tito, he's just an honest dog that moves nicely.


You know how much I love Tito- love how he is put together, love his head and expression. Love him, steal him. . .


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## Ljilly28

Happy said:


> This subject interests me because I see so many lines divided by breed champions and obedience/field/hunt (performance) lines. It seems like the performance lines are sleeker, more agile Goldens and breed ring Goldens have that beautiful bone and coat. I'm on a quest for the next year to find a line that is superb in both breed and performance. I got close with Jonah although I don't think he will make it to the breed ring and will focus on just obedience.


I've always loved this AH CH/MH dog. I am waiting to see what I can do with Copley for now, but I am definitely keeping an ear out for just the right breeding. Pedigree: Am CH, HRCH, U-CD Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN CD MH WCX VCX DDHF BOSS


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## K9-Design

Bone and coat : two primarily aesthetic characteristics that any idiot can recognize and breed for. Two very important physical characteristics that when in excess are the two biggest physiological impairments to a hunting retriever.


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## Kmullen

Ljilly28 said:


> I've always loved this AH CH/MH dog. I am waiting to see what I can do with Copley for now, but I am definitely keeping an ear out for just the right breeding. Pedigree: Am CH, HRCH, U-CD Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN CD MH WCX VCX DDHF BOSS


I actually contacted stoney's breeder. He is great! But not sure just yet if he is the right one for mine yet


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## JDandBigAm

Ljilly28 said:


> I've always loved this AH CH/MH dog. I am waiting to see what I can do with Copley for now, but I am definitely keeping an ear out for just the right breeding. Pedigree: Am CH, HRCH, U-CD Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN CD MH WCX VCX DDHF BOSS


 Stoney is a nice dog. I wish there were some pictures on K9data to show his offspring. I would like to find a dog that is flashy in the obedience ring and breed ring. Jonah is pretty flashy in the obedience ring and has a beautiful prancing gait but since he seems to want to pace when trying to run around the breed ring, I'm about to give up that dream. By the way, is Copley your avatar? He is gorgeous.


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## Ljilly28

kfayard said:


> I actually contacted stoney's breeder. He is great! But not sure just yet if he is the right one for mine yet


You would have laughed if you could feel my heart skip a beat. There is so much promise and dreaming about litters and puppies before choices get made. What is the pedigree for your girl? Is it the one in your signature? I adore my Copley, and I have to give my absolute all to finishing his CH before considering a baby. It is up to Cops how soon that is lol. Well, up to me being better about his coat.


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## Ljilly28

Happy said:


> Stoney is a nice dog. I wish there were some pictures on K9data to show his offspring. I would like to find a dog that is flashy in the obedience ring and breed ring. Jonah is pretty flashy in the obedience ring and has a beautiful prancing gait but since he seems to want to pace when trying to run around the breed ring, I'm about to give up that dream. By the way, is Copley your avatar? He is gorgeous.



Yes, that is Copley. Where did the puppy time go?


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## Ljilly28

K9-Design said:


> Bone and coat : two primarily aesthetic characteristics that any idiot can recognize and breed for. Two very important physical characteristics that when in excess are the two biggest physiological impairments to a hunting retriever.


Well, luckily Stoney has the right amount of bone and coat to let him be an awesome hunting dog on a nice Saturday afternoon, and pass his MH. I agree with Hotel4Dogs that bone and coat do serve important roles beyond the aesthetic.


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## K9-Design

Ljilly28 said:


> Well, luckily Stoney's bone and coat still let him be an awesome hunting dog on a nice Saturday afternoon, and pass his MH. They didn't impair him too much. I agree with Hotel4Dogs that bone and coat do serve important roles beyond the aesthetic.


I don't know if he has excess bone or coat, I've never seen him in person. And I've never seen him work. I didn't say bone and coat were not important I said in excess they are detrimental. What we've come to expect in the breed ring is excess.


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## Kmullen

Ljilly28 said:


> You would have laughed if you could feel my heart skip a beat. There is so much promise and dreaming about litters and puppies before choices get made. What is the pedigree for your girl? Is it the one in your signature? I adore my Copley, and I have to give my absolute all to finishing his CH before considering a baby. It is up to Cops how soon that is lol. Well, up to me being better about his coat.


Yes, her k9 data link is:
Pedigree: SHR Lakewood's Gonna B A Rockstar CGC

I absolutely agree. I just want to look for studs...I do not intend to breed her till I have some more accomplished with her! Plus my breeder and the sire's breeder want to get their hands on her because they have not seen her since she was 8 weeks old.

After her JH title, we will be more focused on the show ring! She has only been in 2 shows. She is only 21 months old also. But I am hoping Amy Booth (she emailed and said she had room) can take her in March! Fingers crossed.

But Stoney is active and so is my girl...so I do not want all active pups since the majority of offspring will probably go to family/companion homes! :-(
He has actually only bred Stoney 4 times. Only 2 is show lines.


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## Swampcollie

K9-Design said:


> I don't know if he has excess bone or coat, I've never seen him in person. And I've never seen him work. I didn't say bone and coat were not important I said in excess they are detrimental. What we've come to expect in the breed ring is excess.


I have to agree with Anney. 

What has come to be "expected" in the conformation ring is excessive for a working dog. (This is true for the entire sporting group, not just goldens.)


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## Ljilly28

Here are many of the the CH/MH dogs. They have such variety in their amounts of bone and coat, at least in photographs. 

Am. CH. Amigold On A Wing N A Prayer CD MH WCX VCX DDHF OS***
CH. Augusta's Wingsong CDX MH WC DDHF
Am. CH. Duncan Dell's Drummond CD ** DDHF
AmCH Golden Gun Winkie DDHF **
Am CH Golly G's P F Flyer MH UD TDX AX AXJ OAP OJP WCX VCX OD DDHF
Am Ch Golly G's Play Ball TDX, MH, OA, OAJ, WCX, VCX, DDHF
Am CH Gower's Love At First Bite MH WCX AX AXJ NAP RE VCX DDHF
Am. CH. Hillock's Double Trouble II CD, RN, MH, WCX, VCX, SDHF, DDHF, OS
Am. CH. Karlor's Arriba Of Sorehen DDHF **
Am. CH. Lorelei's Marshgrass Rebel CD ** OS DDHF
Am. CH. Lorelei's Sanchar's Danny CD ** DDHF
CH Lorelei's Santa Maria *** DDHF
CH. Malagold Augusta's Genuine Article CD, MH, WCX, VCX, DDHF
BISS Am. Ch. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy UD MH WC VCX OS SDHF DDHF
Am CH, HRCH, U-CD Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN CD MH WCX VCX DDHF BOSS
Am./Can. CH. Sprucewood's Chore Boy *** SDHF DDHF
Am. CH. Sprucewood's Chuck O Luck *** DDHF
Am. CH. Sunburst Miss Polaris WC DDHF ***
CH UH HR Sunnyglen Feather River Run'r UD MH AX OAJ WCX VCX DDHF
Am. CH. Toby of Willow Lake *** DDHF
HRCH U-CD; Ch Vanreels Dreaming Of A Threepeat CD MH WCX VCX DDHF
Am. CH. Woodwind's Sir Sparklin Evan CDX MH WCX DDHF




Obviously, having good bone and a nice coat befitting the standard does not equate to a great dog by any means. Many judges are not fooled. I have to agree with Hotel4dogs on that one too. In actuality, many worthy moderate dogs do finish their CH. The "moderate card" gets played when someone has a dog that's not especially excellent and has some structural weakness, but the owner really wants accolades. They just say their dog is moderate and all the stupid judges want excess to explain to themselves and others why they are not winning.


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## K9-Design

Ljilly28 said:


> Here are many of the the CH/MH dogs. Several have plenty of good bone and quite a bit of coat.
> Am. CH. Amigold On A Wing N A Prayer CD MH WCX VCX DDHF OS***
> CH. Augusta's Wingsong CDX MH WC DDHF
> Am. CH. Duncan Dell's Drummond CD ** DDHF
> AmCH Golden Gun Winkie DDHF **
> Am CH Golly G's P F Flyer MH UD TDX AX AXJ OAP OJP WCX VCX OD DDHF
> Am Ch Golly G's Play Ball TDX, MH, OA, OAJ, WCX, VCX, DDHF
> Am CH Gower's Love At First Bite MH WCX AX AXJ NAP RE VCX DDHF
> Am. CH. Hillock's Double Trouble II CD, RN, MH, WCX, VCX, SDHF, DDHF, OS
> Am. CH. Karlor's Arriba Of Sorehen DDHF **
> Am. CH. Lorelei's Marshgrass Rebel CD ** OS DDHF
> Am. CH. Lorelei's Sanchar's Danny CD ** DDHF
> CH Lorelei's Santa Maria *** DDHF
> CH. Malagold Augusta's Genuine Article CD, MH, WCX, VCX, DDHF
> BISS Am. Ch. Snowshoe's Girl Crazy UD MH WC VCX OS SDHF DDHF
> Am CH, HRCH, U-CD Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN CD MH WCX VCX DDHF BOSS
> Am./Can. CH. Sprucewood's Chore Boy *** SDHF DDHF
> Am. CH. Sprucewood's Chuck O Luck *** DDHF
> Am. CH. Sunburst Miss Polaris WC DDHF ***
> CH UH HR Sunnyglen Feather River Run'r UD MH AX OAJ WCX VCX DDHF
> Am. CH. Toby of Willow Lake *** DDHF
> HRCH U-CD; Ch Vanreels Dreaming Of A Threepeat CD MH WCX VCX DDHF
> Am. CH. Woodwind's Sir Sparklin Evan CDX MH WCX DDHF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, having good bone and a nice coat befitting the standard does not equate to a great dog by any means. Many judges are not fooled. I have to agree with Hotel4dogs on that one too. In actuality, many worthy moderate dogs do finish their CH. *The "moderate card" gets played when someone has a dog that's not especially excellent and has some structural weakness, but the owner really wants accolades. They just say their dog is moderate and all the stupid judges want excess to explain to themselves and others why they are not winning.*


Sorry but I'm scratching my head at your whole post here. So you can do a search on K9data for DDHF? You know all of these dogs and how they worked and what they looked like in person? What do those dogs have to do with anything? 
And the part I bolded, who is this directed at?


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## GoldenSail

Ok, so how do you guys make a judgment call on what is too little bone? Too much? (same with coat)

And Ljilly, I think it sad that an otherwise nicely built and balanced dog could not finish in the ring if it did not have enough bone. Sure, it's a fault but I'd much prefer a nicely balanced dog over one that was not balanced but had good bone.

I love Star from his picture. Seems to be a very nice, nice boy. Would love to know him and put my hands on him. Seems moderate, adequate but not excessive bone or coat.


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## GoldenSail

k9-design said:


> bone and coat : Two primarily aesthetic characteristics that any idiot can recognize and breed for. Two very important physical characteristics that when in excess are the two biggest physiological impairments to a hunting retriever.


 lol  lol  lol


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## hotel4dogs

I love Stoney, too. Have you seen him in person? Another honest, moderate dog without a big, dripping coat. Love him.




Ljilly28 said:


> I've always loved this AH CH/MH dog. I am waiting to see what I can do with Copley for now, but I am definitely keeping an ear out for just the right breeding. Pedigree: Am CH, HRCH, U-CD Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN CD MH WCX VCX DDHF BOSS


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## hotel4dogs

I think this may depend on area. I know you have all seen millions of photos of Tito in the breed ring, but I'm posting it again. This is what wins in the big midwest show scene. The dogs that are winning are all about the same substance and coat as Tito.
Stoney, if anything, is more moderate than Tito is if you meet him in person and he hasn't just been show groomed.




Swampcollie said:


> I have to agree with Anney.
> 
> What has come to be "expected" in the conformation ring is excessive for a working dog. (This is true for the entire sporting group, not just goldens.)


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## hotel4dogs

This is where we get into the difference between what judges are supposed to do, and what people ringside are doing.
It's easy to "fault judge" and you hear it all the time ringside. People will pick apart each dog, listing their faults.
But the judge isn't supposed to judge faults, they are supposed to judge the whole package. They are supposed to judge merits, not faults. So you will see a dog with what people ringside are calling a fault winning, because the judge feels that the whole package overcomes the fault. A dog who "doesn't have enough bone" but is balanced, has a correct coat, and moves well is actually more likely to win (under a decent judge) than a dog who has "plenty of bone" but moves like a hippo. And of course, every judge has their own personal likes and dislikes. Some prefer movement over all else in the sporting breeds, for example.
Of course, some judges can't tell a golden from a lab, but that's another whole thread 




GoldenSail said:


> Ok, so how do you guys make a judgment call on what is too little bone? Too much? (same with coat)
> 
> And Ljilly, I think it sad that an otherwise nicely built and balanced dog could not finish in the ring if it did not have enough bone. Sure, it's a fault but I'd much prefer a nicely balanced dog over one that was not balanced but had good bone.
> 
> I love Star from his picture. Seems to be a very nice, nice boy. Would love to know him and put my hands on him. Seems moderate, adequate but not excessive bone or coat.


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## hotel4dogs

I don't think that was necessarily directed at anyone....you hear it ALL the time ringside, as Jill said, from people who have uninspiring dogs and need to explain to themselves and their friends why the dog just isn't winning anything. The dogs are sidewinding, lacking angles, whatever, but the owner says the judges are ignoring them because they are moderate dogs. Under some judges, this is true, but for the most part it hasn't been in our experience.
There are some dogs I personally know of, less moderate than Tito, who started showing long before he did, showed a lot more often, and still only have a couple of points. Frequently some of them showed at the same shows we did, and Tito did fine under the judges. I'm thinking the issue has nothing to do with them being moderate, but that's what you hear the owners whining ringside.


".....Obviously, having good bone and a nice coat befitting the standard does not equate to a great dog by any means. Many judges are not fooled. I have to agree with Hotel4dogs on that one too. In actuality, many worthy moderate dogs do finish their CH. *The "moderate card" gets played when someone has a dog that's not especially excellent and has some structural weakness, but the owner really wants accolades. They just say their dog is moderate and all the stupid judges want excess to explain to themselves and others why they are not winning...."*



K9-Design said:


> Sorry but I'm scratching my head at your whole post here. So you can do a search on K9data for DDHF? You know all of these dogs and how they worked and what they looked like in person? What do those dogs have to do with anything?
> And the part I bolded, who is this directed at?


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## Ljilly28

K9-Design said:


> Sorry but I'm scratching my head at your whole post here. So you can do a search on K9data for DDHF? You know all of these dogs and how they worked and what they looked like in person? What do those dogs have to do with anything?
> And the part I bolded, who is this directed at?


Sorry my post puzzled you and made you scratch your head. It wasnt a very deep or complex post- just chatty . It's the logical flipside of the "excessive"topic, and was not directed at anyone in particular. I am bemused that you thought so.


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## sterregold

I have to agree with Anney and Swampcollie that there are dogs being rewarded in the conformation ring whose coat and bone would actually interfere with their being a truly functional hunting dog, as well as dogs with so much substance they would not be easy to pull back into a boat in the marsh. Titles are all well and good, but remember that there is no limit to the number of times one may try to get those 4 passes for the SH or 5 passes for the MH. I have run in tests with and judged dogs who managed to title that I would not ever want to go hunting with because they really didn't have the courage to handle the truly tough going you often encounter in hunting, or who had plenty of courage and desire but whose coat was literally a detriment, being so long or thick and heavy that the dog was weighed down on water retrieves and just full of debris on land.


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## Sunkota

Some interesting points brought up in this thread. As someone said, breeding for bone and coat is easy. What we see today in the show ring is not problems with bone and coat, it is lack of proper structure and proper movement. Every show I have been to recently I cringe when I see the side gait and down and back - lots of restricted fronts on side gait, sloppy down and backs, movement where the dog really works hard to get around, they would never last all day in the field. When they are stacked I see lots of straight fronts, bad toplines, no angles.

And as somone else brought up, I hear owners saying their dog does not win because their dog has a wavy coat (or the dog is moderate, or whatever) and the judge does not know that is acceptable. Often they fail to see (I guess) that the dog has no lay back, and/or looks like a mixmaster in the front when moving, etc.

We all know that lots of dogs that are not really a good specimen of the breed do finish their Championships and dogs that are not really that great in the field get hunt titles. I used to help at some training sessions and hunt tests and at training would watch these sullen, unhappy Goldens trudge out and get the bird (usually after a couple of shocks) and dogs at hunt test just barely pulling it off after many tries.


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## hotel4dogs

ha ha ha ha never heard that one before, it's a perfect description!




Sunkota said:


> looks like a mixmaster in the front when moving, etc.
> 
> .


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## Ljilly28

hotel4dogs said:


> I don't think that was necessarily directed at anyone....you hear it ALL the time ringside, as Jill said, from people who have uninspiring dogs and need to explain to themselves and their friends why the dog just isn't winning anything. The dogs are sidewinding, lacking angles, whatever, but the owner says the judges are ignoring them because they are moderate dogs. Under some judges, this is true, but for the most part it hasn't been in our experience.
> There are some dogs I personally know


Yes, my comment was definitely not directed at anyone in particular, except I hear often in my every day life about how someone's dog didn't win because the judge only likes powderpuff fluffies. These are usually people in my classes etc who have dogs bordering on pet dogs, not people with wonderful field dogs. I think a moderate golden really can win on his or her good merits quite often, at least in my area of the country. Lol, the comment could be directed at myself as I have a dog I adore who really isnt show quality but I wish he was.


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## Swampcollie

GoldenSail said:


> Ok, so how do you guys make a judgment call on what is too little bone? Too much? (same with coat)


Good question.

Look to the breed standard. The breed standard defines the breeds' purpose as a "hunting dog". The dog needs enough bone and coat to enable it to fulfill its' role as a hunting dog. More bone and coat than is necessary to serve that role is excessive. Too little bone and coat and again, the dog will not be able to stand up to the rigors of field work.

Form follows function.


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## GoldenSail

Ok, so it makes total sense to me to reward good structure over bone and coat if that is needed (i.e. the heavier coated and boned dogs have better structure, even if they are excessive and coarse, I think overall structure and balance most important).

I also agree about the titles not meaning much. I field train with some show labs and one of them has her SH going on MH. While she can do the work, it is not with the style and eagerness I personally would want my dogs to have. She very slowly meanders out there and back--maybe perks up when she sees the bird. Super steady, but still...not my style.

Stoney looks very moderate in coat and bone to me, but I would love to meet him in person to go over structure. Seems to have working ability 

Again I ask though since no one has answered: *What is too much or too little bone? Coat?*


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## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> I think this may depend on area. I know you have all seen millions of photos of Tito in the breed ring, but I'm posting it again. This is what wins in the big midwest show scene. The dogs that are winning are all about the same substance and coat as Tito.
> Stoney, if anything, is more moderate than Tito is if you meet him in person and he hasn't just been show groomed.


I love Tito! Very handsome, solid hardworking dog! But don't you get some criticism for his short coat? How do you personally feel about it? He certainly appears to my eye to have less than most goldens, which isn't necessarily a bad thing....

Scout doesn't carry a lot of coat (she's still youngish). It concerns me on one end, but then it is so easy to take care of. And if she can go out in below freezing water and run around without getting cold and the texture is correct--surely the shorter coat is not or should not be a problem.


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## Bender

Too much or too little, hard to say. I could post examples but that might cause more arguments based on the dog vs. the example!

I would say the dogs in the show ring are not 'too small' - most field dogs are smaller, finer boned with less hair - so that says something if they are still able to do the job yet are not huge. I do love the flash of Storee when she's working, if I can get it into her head to bring the first bird to me before getting the second, watch out (we're working on that!!!). She's fast and athletic and a bit of a 'rush' when she's sent for a bird, fearless and bold (maybe a bit too bold at times). 

The biggest golden I know (I've seen taller but not with the bone of this dog) does field mainly. He is consistant, calm, very steady and gets the job done. He does not charge out and back to the bird though, he lopes out at most and trots back with his finds. Not exciting but hardly ever messes up, very reliable working dog. Not exciting to watch really when you've seen 4-5 speedy dogs flying around before him, but he does the job.

I would think an extreme on either end as far as size and coat would make 'less' of a good working dog, if that makes it harder for them to do their job. But drive and will come into play too, the perfectly built golden is useless if they won't go get a bird and bring it back!


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## hotel4dogs

I have expressed concern about Tito not having a long coat on many occasions, and everyone from handlers to judges has told me his coat is fine, and it's correct. No one but me ever seemed to think it was an issue. Interestingly, he got all 3 of his majors within a short time of each other, when he was badly out of coat! So I'd say no, the judges aren't looking for long, flowing coats so much as they are for correct coat type. 
Here are 2 pictures of Tito when he's not out of coat:


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## JDandBigAm

That's what I'm talking about, drive and correct structure! I guess that is everyone's dream dog...I want a dog who is eager to work and cleans up beautifully for the breed ring.


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## The Trio

I'm going to steal Tito!!! He's so darn cute and looks like such a sweet heart! He has the whole package. Brains and Beauty. I wish Teddy had more brains he is such a goofball. All he wants to do is cuddle and be a goof. Maybe I should get a Tito puppy


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## Kmullen

I am a tito and fisher lover!!


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## hotel4dogs

<blushing>
Thanks. Tito is a good boy, and I think most everyone knows this but some of the newer members might not....I got Tito to be a pet for my daughter, nothing more. He was her college graduation present! He wasn't bred for show (his breeder doesn't show, but breeds from conformation lines), nor performance, nor anything else. Just for a sweet temperament. He was originally on a limited registration. I've been very very lucky, he's a once in a lifetime dog.


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## Bogey's Mom

Happy said:


> Stoney is a nice dog. I wish there were some pictures on K9data to show his offspring. I would like to find a dog that is flashy in the obedience ring and breed ring. Jonah is pretty flashy in the obedience ring and has a beautiful prancing gait but since he seems to want to pace when trying to run around the breed ring, I'm about to give up that dream. By the way, is Copley your avatar? He is gorgeous.


I have a Stoney puppy and couldn't be happier with every single thing about him. I hope to show him but not until he is more mature physically. I am familiar with a lot of the dogs in the springcreek line and have spent a ton of time with many of them. A lot of them hit their prime show time when they are 3-5 and Stoney doesn't have any puppies that old yet. I have seen several of his litters and have been impressed.

The puppies all have rock solid temperaments, which is always #1 in my book. I don't have a good or updated photo of Ace on k9data, but he 10x the dog I thought I was going to get and I couldn't be happier.


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## Megora

Something I was a little curious about on this subject, and I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this, because I'm looking at this from the pet perspective... um...

With male goldens, I think that when it comes to bone and coat on a mature dog it is very easy to spot what is good or bad. I don't really like dogs that are too narrow in front or back, too lean or square, and/or have spindly legs. 

The coat - as a pet owner, I really prefer the moderate coat example, like Barb's Tito. It is so much easier to take care of than a golden with a full coat. I can take Jacks swimming and then go hiking for a couple hours and he will be mostly dry when we get back to the car. That was so not the case with our Danny who had a thick and long coat. 

My question... 

I've seen females with VERY nice coats, but I'm a little confused about bones. 

I have no idea what is ideal with females. If you leave a female intact, for example, what would the difference be between how her bones grow and develop, and a spayed female? Do females get as full in the chest and shoulders as males get?


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## AmberSunrise

Oh, I do have to join the 'I love Tito' folks .. wow  Form, function, beauty and brains all in one dog.



hotel4dogs said:


> I have expressed concern about Tito not having a long coat on many occasions, and everyone from handlers to judges has told me his coat is fine, and it's correct. No one but me ever seemed to think it was an issue. Interestingly, he got all 3 of his majors within a short time of each other, when he was badly out of coat! So I'd say no, the judges aren't looking for long, flowing coats so much as they are for correct coat type.
> Here are 2 pictures of Tito when he's not out of coat:


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## K9-Design

Megora said:


> Something I was a little curious about on this subject, and I'm trying to figure out how to phrase this, because I'm looking at this from the pet perspective... um...
> 
> With male goldens, I think that when it comes to bone and coat on a mature dog it is very easy to spot what is good or bad. I don't really like dogs that are too narrow in front or back, too lean or square, and/or have spindly legs.
> 
> The coat - as a pet owner, I really prefer the moderate coat example, like Barb's Tito. It is so much easier to take care of than a golden with a full coat. I can take Jacks swimming and then go hiking for a couple hours and he will be mostly dry when we get back to the car. That was so not the case with our Danny who had a thick and long coat.
> 
> My question...
> 
> I've seen females with VERY nice coats, but I'm a little confused about bones.
> 
> I have no idea what is ideal with females. If you leave a female intact, for example, what would the difference be between how her bones grow and develop, and a spayed female? Do females get as full in the chest and shoulders as males get?


When we say "bone" we don't mean how tall the dog is or how big their body is. Bone refers to the sturdiness and substance of their legs. A dog can have a lot of bone but not a lot of substance in the chest and body. And vice versa. An easy example of bone vs. not is a Clydsdale vs. an Arabian horse.


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## Megora

K9-Design said:


> When we say "bone" we don't mean how tall the dog is or how big their body is. Bone refers to the sturdiness and substance of their legs. A dog can have a lot of bone but not a lot of substance in the chest and body. And vice versa. An easy example of bone vs. not is a Clydsdale vs. an Arabian horse.


But I thought bone was all over - same as with horses. That Clydsdale needs to be big boned all over to be a draught horse. Especially in the shoulders. It's a bit the same but to lesser degrees with other breeds, including Arabs and Morgans. Although, now I think of it... a good deal of that is more muscle tone. 

I think where I was confused is when people talk about big boned, they usually are talking about the front of a dog and upper legs (shoulders, hips)... ?


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## K9-Design

Megora said:


> I think where I was confused is when people talk about big boned, they usually are talking about the front of a dog and upper legs (shoulders, hips)... ?


Nope bone refers to the feet and lower hard part of the legs (from elbows down in the front and stifles down in the back).


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## Megora

K9-Design said:


> Nope bone refers to the feet and lower hard part of the legs (from elbows down in the front and stifles down in the back).


OK. Now I know. 

I'm going to guess that's the difference between some goldens who have "average" type feet and legs (not spindly), like my guy, and those goldens with "monster paws".


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## GoldenSail

Megora said:


> My question...
> 
> I've seen females with VERY nice coats, but I'm a little confused about bones.
> 
> I have no idea what is ideal with females. If you leave a female intact, for example, what would the difference be between how her bones grow and develop, and a spayed female? Do females get as full in the chest and shoulders as males get?


Well, the standard does not address differences in sex (other than height and weight). Some people like doggy bitches (bitches that are more substantial and look more like dogs), others prefer feminine bitches.

The blue book on golden retriever structure is really good if you are interested in the topic. You can buy one from GRCA. The author writes that dogs should be masculine and bitches feminine. So, a male golden would then be more substantial and impressive--more bone and coat, blockier head than a bitch. Schlehr writes that breed characteristics are more defined in males than females. Bitches carry less coat and bone and finer heads--still should have good ones just be feminine. A masculine bitch is preferred over a weedy bitch or dog.

EDIT: I do not think that bitches in general are expected to have as much forechest as males--am I correct guys? I also understand that spaying a female can cause more coat because they don't have the cycles to deal with. I don't know how spaying effects bone.


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## hotel4dogs

interestingly, most of the bitches I've seen here in the ring carry more coat than the dogs do. No idea why????


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## Sunkota

> EDIT: I do not think that bitches in general are expected to have as much forechest as males--am I correct guys? I also understand that spaying a female can cause more coat because they don't have the cycles to deal with. I don't know how spaying effects bone.


A bitch should have just as much forechest and layback as a dog (proportionally of course - a bitch should be a bit smaller overall). A spayed bitch usually carries more coat than before spaying - often it is a different texture that some call "spay coat".


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## hotel4dogs

my 13 year old Toby has "spay coat", lol. VERY thick, wooly like a sheep, and totally, totally incorrect.


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## GoldenSail

hotel4dogs said:


> interestingly, most of the bitches I've seen here in the ring carry more coat than the dogs do. No idea why????


That is interesting! I was told by someone that bitches don't carry as much coat as the boys, and that is part of why they are harder to show because seasons affect their coat and so they can be out more than boys...but then, I was told by a different person that she loves long loins and this person didn't believe me when I told her the standard called for a short coupled dog :doh:

I feel I am at a disadvantage out here being a newbie in a state that is deficient in goldens and dog shows  and no point in showing an immature dog 

The blue book is not the standard, but it does says generally females carry shorter coats and that they shed out more completely than males...


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## GoldenSail

Sunkota said:


> A bitch should have just as much forechest and layback as a dog (proportionally of course - a bitch should be a bit smaller overall). A spayed bitch usually carries more coat than before spaying - often it is a different texture that some call "spay coat".


Thanks for clarifying my inexperience. I was thinking since the blue book lists bitches as feminine and less impressive than dogs that this would mean they might have slightly less forechest.


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## hotel4dogs

It seems the bitches here carry more coat; I've often wondered if people are giving them the birth control pills (forget the name) that prevent them coming in season, which makes the coats really full. 
Also, from what I've seen (not that I'm an expert), being out-of-coat doesn't really hurt a good dog or a good bitch. The judges, having been around dogs at least a little (and in some cases I suspect only a little, lol) realize that dogs do blow coat, and they judge the structure of the dog and as long as the coat type is correct, don't seem too worried about the dog being out of coat.




GoldenSail said:


> That is interesting! I was told by someone that bitches don't carry as much coat as the boys, and that is part of why they are harder to show because seasons affect their coat and so they can be out more than boys...but then, I was told by a different person that she loves long loins and this person didn't believe me when I told her the standard called for a short coupled dog :doh:
> 
> I feel I am at a disadvantage out here being a newbie in a state that is deficient in goldens and dog shows  and no point in showing an immature dog
> 
> The blue book is not the standard, but it does says generally females carry shorter coats and that they shed out more completely than males...


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## GoldenSail

Barb--I am glad to hear that! (The out of coat part). I wonder if bitches out there have more coat because they tend to be more competitive than dogs? 

I really need some hands-on experience but like I said before shows are very limited out here, a close show is 5-6 hours away. And I have no desire to go out of the way showing an immature bitch and I want to make sure she clears. No golden retriever club out here, or in many of the neighboring states either. So it's hard for me to get an idea of what's out there and how to weight the seriousness of some faults or whether or not I should consider it a fault (like this discussion on bone and coat).


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## GoldenSail

Do you guys think if a dog has to be trimmed underneath their belly that means the dog has too much coat?


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## hotel4dogs

People in this area have told me that which is more competitive, bitches or dogs, tends to be cyclical. While I was showing Tito, the dog entries were often much higher than the bitch entries, but in my novice opinion, the bitches were usually more competitive than the dogs were, meaning every bitch in the ring was gorgeous, whereas *some* of the dogs probably didn't belong in the ring...


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## K9-Design

GoldenSail said:


> Do you guys think if a dog has to be trimmed underneath their belly that means the dog has too much coat?


No not necessarily. I trim the fur that hangs off their belly on every dog I show, if you trim it even it looks fuller. Even Fisher who has very little "hangy down" fur for a boy. 
I know what you mean though -- i.e. Chaos and Newton very noticeably are trimmed on their underbelly, looks gorgeous although a bit unnatural. Two I could think of off the top of my head. I've seen both in person and didn't think they had an outrageous or superabundant coat. Primed and kept for the ring yes, but if left alone I don't think it would have been out of control.


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## MillysMom

hotel4dogs said:


> It seems the bitches here carry more coat; I've often wondered if people are giving them the birth control pills (forget the name) that prevent them coming in season, which makes the coats really full.



Is that legal? I've often wondered about hormones for bitches... it seems if you are planning on showing/campaigning/training a lot, it would be very worthwhile to use a hormone to prevent a bitch from coming into season. But, I wasn't sure if that was allowed or not with dogs. In horses, there are very few mares that are shown not on a birth control like Depo Provera to prevent them from coming into season. It's relatively quick for it to leave their system when it comes time to breed.


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## hotel4dogs

I don't know if it's legal, I know people do it....


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## GoldenSail

Really? From my limited understanding it can cause infertility problems so I would be VERY concerned and hesitant to use it on a bitch I'm spending $$$ on to champion.


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## HiTideGoldens

hotel4dogs said:


> I don't know if it's legal, I know people do it....


I have to admit I wondered recently how one keeps a female special looking great all year...it's not as though they can take months off from showing if they blow all their coat out. Maybe that's the answer with some of them.


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## GoldenSail

Yeah, I haven't done a lot of research on BC for dogs but my interest is now perked. According to Dr. Hutch using Cheque drops can cause bitches to muscle up more and carry more coat--Mibilerone is a derivative of a male hormone. 

02 Transcript: Canine Reproduction Seminar - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

It seems people do not always have problems getting their bitches pregnant when off of it, but it also lists infertility in some cases as a side effect and that it should not be used in bitches who are used primarily to be bred... Makes me nervous...


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## Bogey's Mom

GoldenSail said:


> Stoney looks very moderate in coat and bone to me, but I would love to meet him in person to go over structure. Seems to have working ability


There is *nothing* moderate about Stoney. And he certainly does have a ton of working ability. Pat and Stoney have chosen to pursue field work heavily over the past few years and it is something that he absolutely loves. If you ever want to see a golden smile from ear to ear, watch that boy retrieve.  But if they ever decide to give obedience a go he will shine just as much in that area. He is a smart dog who loves to work and is very eager to please.


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## GoldenSail

Bogey's Mom said:


> There is *nothing* moderate about Stoney. And he certainly does have a ton of working ability. Pat and Stoney have chosen to pursue field work heavily over the past few years and it is something that he absolutely loves. If you ever want to see a golden smile from ear to ear, watch that boy retrieve.  But if they ever decide to give obedience a go he will shine just as much in that area. He is a smart dog who loves to work and is very eager to please.


Well that all depends on how define you moderate...

Moderate | Define Moderate at Dictionary.com

Personally my understanding and use of moderate for goldens would be definition 1 not 3 and thus it is a highly desirable trait. I have not met the dog, but his picture appears that he does not carry excessive bone and coat, nor too little.


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## hotel4dogs

Geez, I think Stoney is very moderate, and I mean that as an extreme compliment. He is not in any way weedy or underdone, nor is he clunky and overdone. He is just totally correct, moderate in every way!
from the dictionary, which is how I've always heard it used in reference to goldens:

"...kept or keeping within reasonable or proper limits; not extreme, excessive, or intense...."



Bogey's Mom said:


> There is *nothing* moderate about Stoney. And he certainly does have a ton of working ability. Pat and Stoney have chosen to pursue field work heavily over the past few years and it is something that he absolutely loves. If you ever want to see a golden smile from ear to ear, watch that boy retrieve.  But if they ever decide to give obedience a go he will shine just as much in that area. He is a smart dog who loves to work and is very eager to please.


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## Bogey's Mom

I didn't mean that as a snappy response at all. I fear it might have come across that way. I just mean if you were to get your hands on him he is a ton of dog. The first time I met him I was quite surprised. You are right that he is not at all overdone, I was just very surprised how much of him there is! I, too, had been looking at photos and he was just different than what I had expected. Then again, Stoney was my first introduction to a real multipurpose golden. And *swoon* he sure stole my heart! Like others on this thread have said, brains and beauty are a winning combination. 

I hope you all have a chance to see him in person - you wouldn't be let down!


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## hotel4dogs

I was afraid you thought I was insulting Stoney, and nothing is further from the truth! I love Stoney, he's an amazing dog. I've gotten to see him soaking wet, and there's no better way to truly appreciate a dog's structure than to see him soaked to the skin.


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## GoldenSail

Barb, isn't that one thing you once said about Treasure? That the best thing about her is that there is nothing spectacular--meaning she is moderate, and everything is in nice balance without excess.


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## hotel4dogs

yes, it is, plus she moves really nicely!


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## Bogey's Mom

I didn't think that at all Barb! I know how much you appreciate the dogs who can hold their own in multiple venues  You've got one with quite a track record.


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## Goldenz

The standard calls for a "moderate" dog...just sayin'... You don't want a dog that is small like a bitch, but you don't want a small pony either. You do need enough bone and substance for the dog to do what he was bred for. While showing my goldens, most judges were looking for correct texture and undercoat. Movement is key.


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