# Shadow's dog issues



## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

So I hijacked the other thread about dog parks, but I'd like to describe Shadow's dog issues and hopefully get some input on them. Trying to describe what happens is dicey at best, but here goes.

Let's say we're walking along. He walks reasonably well next to me. We come around a corner and there's a dog there -- it could be 5 feet or 500 feet away, almost no difference. He immediately tenses up, perks up his head and raises his tail. He starts breathing heavily and straining on the leash to pull forward towards the dog. His hackles go up. He will sometimes sit on command if the dog is more than ~30 feet away and not coming toward us. No matter what I do, I cannot break his focus -- he will actually ignore a treat I put right in front of his nose if he's focused on another dog.

If he's off-leash, he will run up to the dog full-speed and extremely excited. He'll stop at them, generally sniff their ears or rear once or twice, then stop with his nose near their ears. I mean, completely stop. He'll even hold his breath. This stoppage goes for about 2 seconds, and then one of two things happens: 10% of the itime, the other dog will take off running and the chase will be on. The rest of the time, Shadow will snarl and snap -- not with intention to bite (I don't think), but very much not in a nice way. Sometimes he'll just stand next to the dog and bark and bark and bark. Whenever he catches up to a running dog, he gets up next to them and barks and barks. When he's barking and not snarling, it's not "mean" per se, but it seems "dominant", for lack of a better word.

I've done lots of things to make sure that I'm alpha. He works for his food, he sits before going through doors, he walks beside me on leash, he works for treats.

What I plan to do to alleviate this is to take him to the dog park and keep him on-leash. When other dogs approcah, if he's nice he gets a treat. If he snarls, I pop the leash and basically push him to the ground (gently, of course  ). I did this once, and he got about two treats and eight pushes. It just didn't "sink in" for him.

So I'm completely open to suggestions about how to improve his dog behavior. I imagine that he just needs exposure, and some mature, calm dogs to teach him what's ok and what's not; unfortunately I don't know anyone with dogs except my neighbor.

Thanks


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

In the dog park thread, FlyingQuizini wrote:


> Hey Dilligas:
> What is leading you to believe that your dog is in need of dog-to-dog socialization? Truth be told, so long as your pup was with littermates until at least 7 weeks; was raised by the mother (vs. hand raised by a human) and came from dogs with a stable temperment, he's already learned everything he needs to know about how to speak dog. It's far more important to socialize him to the crazy things that we humans have in our world -- sights, sounds, smells, surfaces, different types of people, etc.
> 
> If you want to get him out and allow him opportunities to practice his social skills, do so through organized playdates with dogs belonging to people that you know. If you don't have any dog friends, join an obedience class and see who you might want to hook up with there.
> ...


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

In the dog park thread, FlyingQuizini wrote:


> I applaud you for wanting to work on Shadow's d2d issues! I wish all dog owners were A. aware of and willing to recognize when their dog has an "issue" in the first place, and B. willing to put in the time and effort to try and change it.
> 
> I'd like to throw out a couple ideas for you to consider. I'm worried that your proposed plan is going to undermine your efforts to build a trusting relationship with your dog. Taking him to the dog park and keeping him on leash is a scary prospect. Check out my earlier reply (in this thread) about leashed dogs in dog parks. Basically, you take his ability to remove himself from the situation (a polite canine response to stress - just go away) so now he has no choice but to posture and display other signs of aggression if he feels other dogs are too close, etc. It's about fight or flight and when there's a leash, you're taking away the flight option.
> 
> ...


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

In the dog park thread, Cooperluv wrote:


> To the poster who was asking for safe places to get dog-dog socialization, I think well-run dog daycares are the way to go. However, if your dog has temperament difficulties, it will likely be hard to get your dog into one of these places. So, I agree with the reply that you should find some well-balanced dog friends and set up play dates. I also agree that dog parks can be unpredictable.


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

In the dog park thread, monomer wrote:


> Dilligas... next time try this... just before you take Shadow to the dog park, take him out somewhere where its just the two of you and run his a$$ off... fetch, bicycling, swim, some high energy activity he likes to do and make it last for at least an hour... THEN go to the park. I will just bet you, that after the initial usual crazy explosion into the park... say within 15-minutes you will see a much more controlled and calmer Shadow. If you do try this, please report back with your findings.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

I said it before, and I'll say it again.......I'd be happy to meet you at the park... You can use my dogs as training objects or whatever you want. Samson sees most other dogs as new playmates.... Cosmo is kinda neutral, but if Samson and another dog start playing, Cosmo will generally chase and bark and try to fit in.....

I'm not sure how good it would do, except that you could have some dog/dog/dog interaction without worrying about other owners getting frustrated with Shadow.....


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

First before you do anything else have you taken him to the vet for bloodwork?


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Stephanie knows her stuff. There is so much good information packed into the big reply she wrote. I'd suggest finding a trainer who approaches things the way Stephanie does, and work from there. Maybe she can recommend a trainer in your area. I think you should talk with her about Shadow. Stephanie has some great ideas.

The part that she wrote about encouraging her students to work sub-threshold -- working on keeping the dog's attention when the other dog is an acceptable (for Shadow) distance away---is key. As she said, the space will decrease as you work. But it takes time and concentrated effort, and with Shadow, you may have to start with the dog 500 feet away.

I've participated in this work (supervised by an expert trainer) several times with freaked-out shelter dogs. It takes time and patience, and you really should be working with an experienced trainer to make sure you get it right, because this is all about building Shadow's confidence in you.

As you do this work, you will be fine-tuning your observation skills, so you will recognize those very subtle communications like the movement of one whisker or the slight change in his breathing.

Rick's offer is very kind, and his Samson and Cosmo are well-adjusted dogs. And I would definitely meet up with them, because this is the kind of controlled playtime in which good things occur. But before I introduced Shadow to any other dogs in a social situation, I'd get with a trainer and work on these issues. Simply introducing Shadow to two happy-go-lucky dogs like Samson and Cosmo won't resolve Shadow's behavior, even if you have a great time at the park with them.

Thank you for starting this thread, and please keep us posted!


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

One more thought--I know this is a hard thing to manage but--I would not do the whole pushing him down thing esp around other dogs.

It is very easy to accidently reinforce problem behavior.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Dilligas... from what I know about you...
You're a young professional at the start of your career and have been working at your job for less than two years. That usually means long hours at work, and not getting home 'til way after dark. So an evening walk is all you can offer Shadow, who is still a rather young 'high-energy' dog... maybe a year and a half old now? Is all this still true or has your situation since changed?

You wish to be able to take Shadow to the dog park once or twice a month to meet and play (socialize) with other dogs? and burn off some energy? The problem is whenever Shadow sees another dog, he is more attract to the dog than to you... to the point of 'blowing you off'... and his style of greet and playing is, you feel, intense and possibly viewed as boarder-line aggressive? (...I mean his intensity at dog-dog play boarders on instability?) Have I misconstrued any of this yet?

So, let me start by getting a little more info from you...
What does Shadow's typical day consist of?
What games does Shadow like to play with you at?
How does Shadow react around strange people?
How often does Shadow get to socialize with stranger people? ...with strange dogs?
And previous bad encounters that you are aware of?
Is Shadow 'full' Lab? How would you estimate his natural energy levels? compared to other Labs you've met?

So far to me, your Shadow sounds a lot like our last dog Kimo (an American Eskimo). His (drive) priorities were: *Dog* then *Huma*n then *Toy*. Whereas a typical 'driven' Golden (like our Sidney) is: *Toy* then *Human* then *Dog* oriented and Goldens who are less driven (the ones who don't really play fetch) are almost all: *Human* then *Dog* then *Toy* in their priorities. So take care with the responses and advice you get on this forum (GRF) because, I believe, most people do not understand that there is a strong 'genetic' influence on a dog's priorities that is difficult to re-order... and this in turn will dictate what methods will work and to what degree. One thing I can tell you without hesitation at this point is exactly the quote from me you posted above... try exercising Shadow before going to the park for socialization. Though I'm not too keen on your idea of using a leash in the park and 'downing' Shadow in the presence of strange dogs who you know nothing about... I will save my thoughts on this until after I get a little more information. So describe this park a little more...

I have to go to work now but perhaps this evening I will have the time to really put some thought into your situation. If Shadow is very much like our Kimo was (and it really sounds that way) I can give you a method to try that will definitely work but it might have to be a PM because it does involve an adversive... and we have a lot of hyper-sensitives on this forum that would rather prefer a dog remain ill-mannered and un-socialize than to use an adversive a few times. I don't like to hurt a dog either but if it means the dog will now get to go places and see more things and do lots more fun things with his owner?... well to me it is worth the brief discomfort for the lifetime improvement in the dog's quality of life. However many forum members here do not share this viewpoint and I don't wish to start more than one forum fight a week... shoot, I can't afford to, I gotta job. And speaking of jobs, I'm really late....


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

monomer said:


> I have to go to work now but perhaps this evening I will have the time to really put some thought into your situation. If Shadow is very much like our Kimo was (and it really sounds that way) I can give you a method to try that will definitely work but it might have to be a PM because it does involve an adversive... and we have a lot of hyper-sensitives on this forum that would rather prefer a dog remain ill-mannered and un-socialize than to use an adversive a few times. I don't like to hurt a dog either but if it means the dog will now get to go places and see more things and do lots more fun things with his owner?... well to me it is worth the brief discomfort for the lifetime improvement in the dog's quality of life....


Yeah, I always stand around wringing my hands when my ill-behaved dogs act out in their un-socialized manner. I'm so darned hyper-sensitive about it too, especially because I'll only consider one route when it comes to helping a dog modify undesirable behavior.

Enough of my sarcasm. I guess for some people, my views do seem to be coming from a limp-wristed, hypersensitive, new-age tree hugger who spends way too much time trying to figure out how a particular dog actually *thinks *and *feels*. But I've said it several times already: You'll find many approaches that will achieve the results you want. Selecting the right approach is all about knowing what you want your relationship with your dog to be. Gawd, there I go again, saying something ridiculous like *relationship*.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

monomer said:


> However many forum members here do not share this viewpoint and I don't wish to start more than one forum fight a week... ..



There wouldn't be any fights if you didn't put others down for thinking differently than you. Just an observation...


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

LaurJen said:


> There wouldn't be any fights if you didn't put others down for thinking differently than you. Just an observation...


Oh, boy....here we go again.


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

Like monomer, I too am late for work. More later.

And let's all tread cautiously, shall we? Smile!


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Oh, boy....here we go again.



Hopefully not. I thought this could have been a really interesting thread. I don't know a lot about different training techniques, and although I don't have dog-to-dog aggression issues with Augie, I was looking forward to hearing different points of view on this topic. People who can't discuss their beliefs without ridiculing others lose some credibility, in my opinion.


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## Carsonsdaddy (Nov 1, 2006)

Dilligas said:


> Like monomer, I too am late for work. More later.
> 
> And let's all tread cautiously, shall we? Smile!


Why don't we just keep this one on subject, as Dilligas is looking for help not drama. How does that sound?


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## jeffreyzone (Feb 8, 2006)

Carsonsdaddy said:


> Why don't we just keep this one on subject, as Dilligas is looking for help not drama. How does that sound?


Sounds great! I hope that Stephanie will jump into this discussion. It seems like she has a lot of good ideas.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

LaurJen said:


> There wouldn't be any fights if you didn't put others down for thinking differently than you. Just an observation...


Okay, let's see here... its okay to bash someone else (CM) and his methods to drum up support only for their own philosophies because that other person (CM) does not visit the forum and cannot offer a rebuttal to the (often false) charges made?... but if I expose this so that 'newbiees to dog training' don't get the wrong impression then I am the one who is guilty of putting others down... hmmmm.... interesting observation you've made there...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

jeffreyzone said:


> Sounds great! I hope that Stephanie will jump into this discussion. It seems like she has a lot of good ideas.


Just to make this clear...
Dilligas PMed both myself as well as Stephanie to call our attention to this thread and not let it die... that's the only reason I'm taking time out to do this. Dilligas has been on this forum as long as I have and so I do know some things about his situation... I am really here just trying to help him and REALLY don't want to start anything... but by the same token, I am never one who runs away if called out... though I have been known to bite my tongue and turn a cheek.


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## LaurJen (Aug 10, 2006)

monomer said:


> Okay, let's see here... its okay to bash someone else (CM) and his methods to drum up support only for their own philosophies because that other person (CM) does not visit the forum and cannot offer a rebuttal to the (often false) charges made?... but if I expose this so that 'newbiees to dog training' don't get the wrong impression then I am the one who is guilty of putting others down... hmmmm.... interesting observation you've made there...


Cesar Milan? I'm sure he couldn't care less what people on a message board say about him. I was talking about you calling people on this forum "hypersensitives" because they don't agree with your point of view. Why was that necessary? I was reading along your very informative post, and found that part a bit jarring. I don't think anyone wants to fight with you, but they will if you put them down. That was the observation I was trying to make  I think what you and others have to say is interesting, and was disappointed that it couldn't have been said in a neutral manner.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

To LaurJen...
Please don't try to "read between the lines" because there really is nothing between the lines, no need for any paranoia... I say exactly what I mean to say... no hidden messages, agendas or innuendos are intended. I REALLY mean, my method will actually start a big argument as this issue has actually come up before. It is entirely true that there are many people on this forum who cannot stomach certain approaches to dog behavior modifications. These things are all facts and nothing more is intended.


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

jeffreyzone said:


> Stephanie knows her stuff. There is so much good information packed into the big reply she wrote. I'd suggest finding a trainer who approaches things the way Stephanie does, and work from there. Maybe she can recommend a trainer in your area. I think you should talk with her about Shadow. Stephanie has some great ideas.


Trainers are an option that I have honestly not considered much up to this point. Given that this is my first dog, I suppose that everything I learn would be generally applicable in the future too... Perhaps I would look into this. I would definitely appreciate recommendations from anyone who happens to know a good trainer near Seattle 



jeffreyzone said:


> I've participated in this work (supervised by an expert trainer) several times with freaked-out shelter dogs.


I have forgotten to mention that Shadow is a rescue dog. I picked him up in September 2005.



jeffreyzone said:


> Rick's offer is very kind, and his Samson and Cosmo are well-adjusted dogs. And I would definitely meet up with them, because this is the kind of controlled playtime in which good things occur. But before I introduced Shadow to any other dogs in a social situation, I'd get with a trainer and work on these issues. Simply introducing Shadow to two happy-go-lucky dogs like Samson and Cosmo won't resolve Shadow's behavior, even if you have a great time at the park with them.


You are probably right (naturally  ) -- While meeting up would be great exercise, I suppose it probably wouldn't do much, unless Samson would do me a huge favor and put Shadow in his place 



jeffreyzone said:


> Thank you for starting this thread, and please keep us posted!


That's the plan! I very much appreciate everyone's help so far.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I have a couple questions about Shadow--how old is he? How old was he when you first noticed the problem? Has he ever been attacked by a dog when he was little? Has He ever gotten into a fight with a dog-that he started? Anyone ever get hurt? Has he ever been able to socialize with any dogs? 

OK--that was more than a couple...sorry


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I know I am going to get blasted for this--but I am almost leaning towards just letting the dogs teach him a thing or two or three...


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

This is a long one...



monomer said:


> Dilligas... from what I know about you...
> You're a young professional at the start of your career and have been working at your job for less than two years. That usually means long hours at work, and not getting home 'til way after dark. So an evening walk is all you can offer Shadow, who is still a rather young 'high-energy' dog... maybe a year and a half old now? Is all this still true or has your situation since changed?


You're basically spot-on, although "professional" may be giving me too much creadit  Home after dark, check. Evening walk, check; although we do morning and late-night walks also. Young dog, check. He's just over two now.



monomer said:


> You wish to be able to take Shadow to the dog park once or twice a month to meet and play (socialize) with other dogs? and burn off some energy? The problem is whenever Shadow sees another dog, he is more attract to the dog than to you... to the point of 'blowing you off'... and his style of greet and playing is, you feel, intense and possibly viewed as boarder-line aggressive? (...I mean his intensity at dog-dog play boarders on instability?) Have I misconstrued any of this yet?


Dead-on. I'd take him twice a week if I could -- at least in the summer when it's light late.



monomer said:


> So, let me start by getting a little more info from you...
> What does Shadow's typical day consist of?


We'll take a weekday for example. Wake up ~9 am. I get ready for work. We go for a morning walk -- ~10-15 minutes usually; sometimes 30+ if I have extra time. We come back upstairs, and he goes into his crate about 10:30 along with breakfast. Either I or my neighbor comes home ~6pm, we go for a ~10 minute walk (longer in summer) and he gets lunch. The neighbor's cocker spaniel comes over and they play for ~20 minutes before they get bored of each other. Sometime in the next few hours, he and I will play fetch or something for ~20 minutes, indoors. Around midnight we go downstairs for a ~10 minute walk. He gets dinner and we go to bed.



monomer said:


> What games does Shadow like to play with you at?


If I would chase him, he would run away from me all day. I don't usually do that though -- we play fetch indoors, tug-of war occasionally, and "catch". Outdoors, he gets bored of fetch easily and we don't "play" much.



monomer said:


> How does Shadow react around strange people?


It depends. Sometimes he's friendly or neutral. Often he growls, not with anger, but more with uncertainty. He never flashes teeth or snarls or anything like that. He loves kids and seems to know to be gentle with them. Once someone comes and pets him and "says hello", he's fine with them.



monomer said:


> How often does Shadow get to socialize with stranger people? ...with strange dogs?


Not often. If there are dogs around, he doesn't even notice the people. Around here most people seem dog-averse, so I generally try to avoid people out of courtesy. He will see a few strange dogs a week on our walks, but he doesn't "socialize" with them; he doesn't get the chance, because of his issues.




monomer said:


> And previous bad encounters that you are aware of?


He got bitten once at the dog park by a golden -- enough to bleed briefly, but no more. I have no idea the first 9 months of his life though.



monomer said:


> Is Shadow 'full' Lab? How would you estimate his natural energy levels? compared to other Labs you've met?


No, not full lab. 50 pounds. I've had guesses from Rottweiler to Greyhound to Chow as to what he's mixed with. His energy levels are strange -- if there are dogs around, he's boundless. Sometimes I'll try to instigate play with him when he's on the couch and he looks at me like I'm nuts. He sleeps a lot and seems happy to do so.



monomer said:


> So far to me, your Shadow sounds a lot like our last dog Kimo (an American Eskimo). His (drive) priorities were: *Dog* then *Huma*n then *Toy*. Whereas a typical 'driven' Golden (like our Sidney) is: *Toy* then *Human* then *Dog* oriented and Goldens who are less driven (the ones who don't really play fetch) are almost all: *Human* then *Dog* then *Toy* in their priorities.


Shadow depends. Indoors it would be be Dog, then Human and Toy equal. Outdoors it would be Dog, Smells, Human, Toy.



monomer said:


> One thing I can tell you without hesitation at this point is exactly the quote from me you posted above... try exercising Shadow before going to the park for socialization.


That sounds like a fantastic idea to me. The problem is that I have a hard time truly wearing him out. He only runs - I mean RUNS - when there are dogs around. Fetch won't do it, walking won't do it. Maybe I could take up jogging  Good idea nonetheless though -- go for a hike or something.



monomer said:


> Though I'm not too keen on your idea of using a leash in the park and 'downing' Shadow in the presence of strange dogs who you know nothing about... I will save my thoughts on this until after I get a little more information. So describe this park a little more...


Fair enough. The feedback seems to be universally that this is a Bad Thing. Noted.

The park itself is enormous -- I have no concept of acreage, but it takes you 20 minutes or so to walk its perimeter if you're walking normally. There are several distinct areas -- water access, a central "meeting spot", open fields, wooded spots, trails, grass, etc. There can be whole parts of the park with no dogs in it, and there can be literally 50 dogs in a 40-foot-square chunk. People are doing everything from not paying attention to training to playing fetch to walking on leash.



monomer said:


> If Shadow is very much like our Kimo was (and it really sounds that way) I can give you a method to try that will definitely work but it might have to be a PM because it does involve an adversive...


Without getting into the subsequent "drama", I'm interested in all information I can get. Information is just that, and it's all appreciated.


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

njb said:


> I have a couple questions about Shadow--how old is he? How old was he when you first noticed the problem? Has he ever been attacked by a dog when he was little? Has He ever gotten into a fight with a dog-that he started? Anyone ever get hurt? Has he ever been able to socialize with any dogs?
> 
> OK--that was more than a couple...sorry


I think I covered these in my last post (sorry, it took me upwards of half an hour to compose). Let me know if I missed any.

Oh, I guess "the problem" has kind of always been there. He's always been this way, it's just gotten steadily more intense.


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## RickGibbs (Dec 16, 2005)

Dilligas said:


> You are probably right (naturally  ) -- While meeting up would be great exercise, I suppose it probably wouldn't do much, unless Samson would do me a huge favor and put Shadow in his place


I wasn't really thinking about it as "helping" you much. More of a chance for us to meet in person.....and get some good exercise in for the dogs. Samson is good for chasing and running, and I'm sure they could get a lot of exercise.

And I wouldn't be sitting there talking down to you and your crazy dog.....


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

But he does play with your neighbors dog right? 

I am no expert for sure--but it sounds to me like his issues might be because of fear. Labs are known for being almost impervious to pain--ergo their victory as working dogs--so don't use this method. 

What I personally would do is study him like a menu for clues --what/how is he acting when he is feeling secure, what/how does is demeanor change at other times. It is almost always best to interrupt the behavior before it starts than to wait till it has escalated. I know--I know--tall order. 

Since you have no clue about the first 9 months--a very important time in his life you are going to have to study his actions and body language very carefully. If he is already a dog that is fearful I personally would not do the whole alpha roll thing on him at all. Trainers can give you better advice than I can, but I would devote my energy into getting him to trust me--relationship. 

I fostered a dog much like this once--he would act very aggressive at the first sight of another dog--almost took out an entire window to get to a new foster. I made my son in law come over and help me introduce them--lol--he looked at me like I was stupid. They won't fight long he said--and sure enough--they just looked at each other and went to other ends of the yard and pooped. 

You might really consider meeting with Rick and have him help you--we humans are trying to understand dogs, but dogs know each other. 

Please keep us posted.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Yes, I too think you should meet up with Rick... it'll get him out of the house and away from his computer, this has got to be a good thing. I think it does help a dog to have calm role models and if Rick is willing to offer up his dogs, I really think you should take him up on it.

The more you describe Shadow the more similarities I think I see to our Kimo. Enough daily exercise, I think, is really going to be key to 'calming' Shadow... have you thought about the bicycle. I'm sure you must have read my 'bicycle with your dog' thread at some point, its been around long enough. Is this an option? Your Shadow sounds like he might require 10-12 miles several times a week (of course you must get him in shape to do this over several weeks... just read the thread to get an idea). Even 7 or 8 miles will probably make a major difference and that would take only about an hour of your time.

I would like to tell you more about our Kimo but it will have to wait until tomorrow... I've got to go to bed and get up early to take my wife to the airport (something that just came up). And I will PM you tomorrow evening to discuss another option you might want to consider to modify some of Shadow's dog-dog behavior... and then you decide if it sounds like something you'd consider trying.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I would still want a visit to the vet--there are a number of 'medical' reasons for increasing aggression.


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

njb said:


> First before you do anything else have you taken him to the vet for bloodwork?


No; I haven't noticed any sizable changes. What might this bloodwork be looking for?

Edit: In the few minutes it took me to read the latest and scan the thread again I seem to have had the same thought as you


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

njb said:


> But he does play with your neighbors dog right?


Sure does. Pretty well too, although he likes to play rough. But I take them across the stream and let them run off-leash, and they'll take turns chasing each other. They wrestle and run around the house too. They've known each other for over a year now. 



njb said:


> What I personally would do is study him like a menu for clues --what/how is he acting when he is feeling secure, what/how does is demeanor change at other times. It is almost always best to interrupt the behavior before it starts than to wait till it has escalated. I know--I know--tall order.


This is what I've kind of been trying to do. But a couple problems remain -- I don't have the knowledge to see what behaviors exactly are starting to indicate excitement. I don't know how to effectively interrupt either. I can make a buzzing noise or tap his flank, and he'll glance at me and then go right back into "tunnel vision" mode. I need "training" here 



njb said:


> I fostered a dog much like this once--he would act very aggressive at the first sight of another dog--almost took out an entire window to get to a new foster. I made my son in law come over and help me introduce them--lol--he looked at me like I was stupid. They won't fight long he said--and sure enough--they just looked at each other and went to other ends of the yard and pooped.


True, they probably won't fight long, but that's not really an excuse down at the dog park 



njb said:


> You might really consider meeting with Rick and have him help you--we humans are trying to understand dogs, but dogs know each other.


Rick and I will probably set something up, as this seems to be mostly agreed-on as a good thing.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

Well for one--thyroid levels, blood sugar levels are another culprit. 

It is always best to rule out 'medical' issues first--


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

monomer said:


> Enough daily exercise, I think, is really going to be key to 'calming' Shadow... have you thought about the bicycle. I'm sure you must have read my 'bicycle with your dog' thread at some point, its been around long enough. Is this an option? Your Shadow sounds like he might require 10-12 miles several times a week (of course you must get him in shape to do this over several weeks... just read the thread to get an idea). Even 7 or 8 miles will probably make a major difference and that would take only about an hour of your time.


I have read that thread. Honestly I disregarded it for a long time because he was too young -- now that he's two, I could start running him a little more. I tried rollerblading with him a few times, and I've had friends visiting that try taking him running. Remember though that his priorities are Dog, Smell, Human, Toy -- that Smell thing leads to some nasty jerks, both for my wrist and his collar. I could try out the bicycle though, once I dust it off 



monomer said:


> And I will PM you tomorrow evening to discuss another option you might want to consider to modify some of Shadow's dog-dog behavior... and then you decide if it sounds like something you'd consider trying.


As I said, there's no such thing as bad information.


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

njb said:


> Well for one--thyroid levels, blood sugar levels are another culprit.
> 
> It is always best to rule out 'medical' issues first--


Interesting. Do I just ask for "blood work"? I'll certainly look into this too.


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## njb (Oct 5, 2006)

I just read your post---must have both been posting at the same time--

So you know he is not bad with ALL dogs--so start really thinking about the circumstances and times when you have problems. Skills of observation are acquired the same way you get to Carnige Hall... practice, practice, practice. 

Since this is your first dog--a training class might help you bunches. Typically any face to face greeting or um...end to end greeting is asking for a fight. I have always been told the correct way for dogs to meet one another is they each smell each others rear end. 

There is a bunch to learn about dog 'body' language--not sure I will ever know it all. I do think it would be good for you and Rick to meet with the dogs so you can get some feedback on how you and the dog---and other dogs around him 'look'-part of what a good trainer does is watch you and give you feedback about your interactions. 

keep your chin up--there is hope!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Dilligas...
Kimo was our dog before Sidney. He was an American Eskimo, which is really just a white spitz. These dogs are extremely smart and very agile on two feet and were the 'trick dogs' of the traveling circuses of the previous century... in fact, these circuses would sell the puppies in all the towns as they toured through the mid-west... that's basically how the breed spread across America. They were the only dog to walk a tight rope, ride scooters, and balance atop white horses and 'chalked' riders... all on two hind legs... they just love to 'walk' and 'dance' around.

Kimo was a very 'in your face' type dog with no fear. He was gentle without a mean bone in his body, and never would harm or kill a bird or rabbit or anything, much less start a fight. However he was a major disaster when meeting other dogs... he wasn't well versed in proper canine manners and was severely attacked several times because of his ill-manners... once by a GSD and another time by a Golden, of all things! We didn't have a dog park to go to then, but I did try to socialize him every chance we got... its just there were never many opportunities. His major problem was he had a very strong and immediate attraction to other dogs, so much so, he would approach every dog with his tail held high, take a bee-line approach, and rush the dog without any regard to signals the other dog was sending. Also he would often try mounting and though I would correct this behavior every single time, it still took awhile to extinguish... I believe my mistake was allowing him to hump blankets and pillows when he was younger and remember his genetics kept telling him to go through life on two legs. It seems there were never enough opportunities to meet other dogs (especially when he was young) and so he never did quite fully master the dog-dog meeting thing. However what I did to manage his energies and focus toward other dogs revolved around perfecting the 'come' command. As hard as this is to believe, Kimo had a 100% recall... yes, he could be running to greet a strange dog and would whirl around an come running back the moment I called him. And I used this perfect recall to keep him at a distance from strange dogs until I could get close enough to him to manage the dog-dog meeting and prevent any humping on his part and get his tail down before meeting any dominant types. So since Shadow sounds similar to Kimo in many ways, I'm thinking maybe you could try the same solution. I think the key for you is to monitor and guide if necessary every dog-dog meeting Shadow has... and to do this you need to be close to Shadow during those meeting thus you need know how to perfect and proof Shadow's "come" response... much as I had done with Kimo. I will PM you on exactly how to do this. I think Shadow's prognosis will be much better than Kimo's because you have a venue to practice these meetings... the dog park... something that was never available to us. But be aware, Kimo was always well exercised... we would bicycle anywhere from 6 to 20-miles PLUS other forms of exercise... at one point we did 10 or more miles a day for 47 days straight (he was about 2 years and at his physical peak). Though that much exercise is not really necessary, you must still drain some of his excess energy before the dog park... that should go along way to calming his barking and pestering of other dogs. You do realize he just wants to play? and so if barks, growls, and pesters the other dog in an effort to get it to explode into play mode. This can be a disaster with certain types of dogs, so its best you drain some of the crazy energy off BEFORE any park encounters.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Dilligas said:


> Interesting. Do I just ask for "blood work"? I'll certainly look into this too.


I'd ask for a complete blood work up, including thyroid. If you really want to be thorough, have the entire thyroid panel done. Your vet can draw the blood and then they send it to Michigan State. Most vet offices are only looking at the T-4 when they do thyroid. Alternatively, see if your vet's office can have Dr. Jean Dodds do the work up. She's in California. She's sort of the frontrunner when it comes to studies on thyroid and aggression.

-Stephanie


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## Dilligas (Jun 17, 2005)

So I wanted to put a brief follow-up here.

I have lots of research to do in the upcoming week or so -- bloodwork, exercise equipment, trainers, and more. I haven't figured out exactly which of these I'll pursue yet.

I want to thank everyone for your help and time -- especially njb, FlyingQuizini, monomer, and jeffreyzone.

I will continue to report back as we (hopefully!) make progress!


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