# Titles



## HunterT (Apr 25, 2013)

I am new to being a golden owner. We have had our golden puppy for about 5 months now and are having him trained to be a waterfowl dog. My wife and I want to eventually breed him. I am aware of having eyes and hips evaluated. Is there anything else that will put Hunter at an advantage and or needs when it comes time to breed. Also can anyone break down the acronyms used for titles or point me in a direction I can research them. Thank you for the help. 


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Check the GRCA website for the info.


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## HunterT (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you that was a huge help. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hips and eyes are just the tip of the iceberg.
You need to check hips, elbows, eyes (yearly), heart, and thyroid for TgAA antibodies. Further, you should do the DNA testing for PRA-1, prcd-PRA, and ichthyosis.
And your question about titles is a good one. Remember, the females get to choose, not the males. So you want him to stand out from the other dogs out there, as Golden stud dogs are a dime a dozen. The best way is with high level titles, usually both before the name (FC, AFC, CH, OTCH, MACH, CT), or high level, not novice, titles after the name (MH, **, ***, UDX, etc.)
Join a Golden Retriever club and get his (and your) name out there. Network so that when the time comes, you may know someone with a wonderful female that might consider using your boy for breeding.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

It will take way more than clear hips and eyes for people with nice bitches to want to use a dog at stud. There are enough titled good-working dogs, that you will need both clearances and proof of performance, plus a compatible pedigree before reputable people will be knocking at his door! 

At minimum for clearances:
-OFA Hips (Final) after 24 months
-OFA ELbows (Final) after 24 months
-Heart Clearance done by a Cardiologist after 12 months
-Eye clearance (CERF or OFA) done by an ACVO Opthamologist *annually for life*

Then, depending on his pedigree and the testing his parents have had done you would also possibly need to do several DNA tests (if parents are both clear through testing then not needed as he would be "clear by parentage"):
-prcd-PRA (eyes--progressive blindness--mainly American lines)
-PRA1 (eyes--progressive blindness--mainly Brit/Euro lines)
-PRA2 (eyes--progressive blindness--mainly Brit/Euro lines)
-Ichthyosis (Skin disorder--we have a very high carrier rate across all styles and countries of origin, so this one is quickly becoming a must-do)
-DM (degenerative myelopathy--not as common)
All of these are recessive in MOI, so people who have a bitch who is a carrier must know the status of the stud dog, needing a clear to avoid producing affected puppies.

Serious field people then tend to plan their breedings based on a combination of pedigree and performance. We do look for titles as "proof in the pudding" but will also use a dog who has potential based on pedigree and how well it fits our bitch's pedigree and phenotype. Generally if there are not a lot of titled dogs behind a boy, then he needs to achieve at the higher levels to get interest (MH, FT points/title, ***, HRCH). If the pedigree is full of highly titled dogs, and a young dog is showing potential in its work, then it may get inquiries as well.


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## HunterT (Apr 25, 2013)

You mention phenotype I am currently taking some animal science classes. In them we go over livestock and talk about uniformity of depth of body. Is this the same for dogs. Or should the body narrow a little when coming to the rear legs. And is there anything else for field dogs that phenotypically I should be looking for to determine if my dog would be a dog that's worth breeding. 


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I highly recommend you get a copy of the book "A Study of The Golden Retriever" by Marchia Schlehr (you can get it through the GRCA website). It will detail every single part of the dog, with illustrations of what is correct, incorrect, and why.
Also called "The Blue Book" due to its blue cover.


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## HunterT (Apr 25, 2013)

Thank you all so much for the advise with this. I am hoping to get Hunter going and see what his potential is. He seems to be taking very well to his training he is getting now so it should be fun working with him at field events. 


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

HunterT said:


> I am new to being a golden owner. We have had our golden puppy for about 5 months now and are having him trained to be a waterfowl dog. *My wife and I want to eventually breed him.*


No offense intended in this question, and please think it through carefully; "Why?" Is it for the good or advancement of the breed? Are there not enough breedings going on at present? Are there not enough cast-off dogs due to over-breeding?

Sounds pretty judgmental, doesn't it? I've been at this dog business for over 35 years, and I care deeply about them. I have experienced professional breeder friends to whom I often pose these same questions. Sometimes they ponder a proposed breeding, and decide against it. Sometimes not. Please think hard on this before leaping.

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Ditto on the Blue Book recommendation. It is very thorough and connects structure to working needs. Another good piece to read is the GRCC's illustrated breed standard. http://www.grcc.net/files/club_documents/GRCCIllustratedBreedStandard.pdf

Entering your dog in a CCA event is also an excellent way to get a critique of your dog's structure to gain a better understanding of his strengths and weaknesses.

With dogs there is great variation in what is considered correct by breed--as each breed's structure was developed in response to the function it needed to serve. But the understanding of the component parts of the animal and how they fit together that is used in livestock judging is a good foundation for applying some of the same principles to canines.

In terms of specifics, I personally want a dog whose angulation is balanced front to rear, and who is not straight in that angulation. Good, balanced angulation helps a dog to stand up to the rigours of hard hunting. Balance helps the dog to move freely and efficiently. Imbalance (such as a straight front paired with a well angled rear) can cause a dog to tire prematurely while working. Straight angulation in the rear has a noted correlation to cruciate injuries, and does not provide as much power when jumping. Straight front angulation means that functionally the dog does not have as great a range of motion through the front for shock absorption when jumping over obstacles, or for lowering the head to scent while moving or carrying game. Straight angulation fore and aft, while balanced, will cause a shorter stride which is not as efficient and ground covering.

With a male, you need to get out there first and see if he can do the work at a high enough level. If he can do that, and then can pass his clearances, then you will have people inquiring about him. *And it is the owners of the girls who seek out the boys--so you have to put the time into proving he is worthy of their notice before you will get inquiries from anyone with a bitch worthy of being bred.* But until all that is in place, you essentially have the cart before the horse in terms of thinking about breeding. Educating yourself about the breed, your dog's adherence to the standard, and proving his working ability is a good place to start getting involved in the complexities of the dog world in the meantime.


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## HunterT (Apr 25, 2013)

I agree with you completely Sterregold and enjoyed reading what to look for in a dog and why those reasons are important to the animal.

As for the question Evang proposed I have put thought into whether or not to breeding is a good idea. I would not want to breed hunter if he brings nothing to the table for the breed. I believe it is important to and for the breed to keep moving forward in a positive direction. That is one reason I enjoy this forum to get a feel for what all needs to be considered before leaping into something that could have a negative impact on the GR reputation. As goldens tend to have a good reputation I find it important to maintain and only improve upon the basis of what many have worked hard to produce. As for overbreeding I can also relate Hunter is the first dog I have had that has been a planned pet lol. Most (all) my dogs prior have been strays that have wondered onto the farm. I am from an area where many people drop pets off because of over population and accidental breeding. So I most definitely want to make sure if I ever make it into any kind of breeding program that all pups are going to good responsible owners. It is a shame that many dogs are let loose do to irresponsible breeding and or lack of preventative measures. 


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Not to nit pick, but just what the hell is "Overbreeding"? Who decides if it is or isn't?

It is a made up "undefined" term created by those who oppose any intentional breeding of animals for any reason. It intended io mean whatever somebody wants it to at a given moment in time. It's right up there with "Puppymill". Usually when you see these terms they are being used to demean or be critical of a business or individual.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> Not to nit pick, but just what the hell is "Overbreeding"? Who decides if it is or isn't?


I would define the term as meaning a specific breed, or color that is intentionally bred beyond what advances the best of breed traits, and/or beyond a point at which there are responsible homes for the puppies of such pairings. Who decides? We do; dog lovers. That's because there are no dog police, or at least not enough who have authority to govern things like this. 

We have to assume the responsibility within the scope of our own abilities, and that includes advancing the best knowledge we can share on the subject. Too many dog pounds bursting at the seams and euthanizing too many unwanted dogs. Yeah, I know; soap box time!


Swampcollie said:


> It is a made up "undefined" term created by those who oppose any intentional breeding of animals for any reason.


I understand, but respectfully disagree. Goldens & Labradors are two breeds I regard to be overbred, and have been for some time. Don't get me started on the so-called "exotics"!


Swampcollie said:


> It intended io mean whatever somebody wants it to at a given moment in time.


I guess that may have to be true. But then, I think all words were that way at some point.


Swampcollie said:


> It's right up there with "Puppymill". Usually when you see these terms they are being used to demean or be critical of a business or individual.


I've always interpreted "Puppymill" as meaning unscrupulous breeders that have no regard for sound practices, like health certification or care, no regard for what specimens they breed, and even poor conditions in which the dogs are kept. It seems rampant. If we don't care, who will?

I know, you and I have a long tradition of agreeing. But I do have some strong convictions about these things.

EvanG


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