# Heeling: Start over or correct



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

So, if one has a dog like Dooley, whose heeling is a solid okay, but not great (checking out less than frequently but more than occasionally) would you back all the way up and start from scratch or go on from here but correct? He is basically ready for Novice but I am hesitant to enter because if I can't get consistant strong heel work at home and in training, I won't get it in the ring. If you answer correct from here, how would you go about it?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

What problems are you having? Or what are the issues?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Biggest issue is focused attention. I can get it and he is stellar, but he does the checking out thing too often to be great in the ring.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I love teaching heeling and I have a lot of newer people come to me asking for help with their dog. I usually show them how I get started with heeling, which is a very slow process working one step at a time. They might try it while we're right there, but as soon as they get home they are right back to full heeling patterns. So then the next time we are together I will offer suggestions on how to fix what they have the best that they can.

So to answer your question, I think that going back and giving it a whole new word and starting from the very beginning, work step by step, never taking an extra step if there's something you don't like, is the best way to fix overall major errors in heeling. However, you have to judge how worth it is to you. Sometimes it's easier to just work with what you have with one dog and vow to do differently from the start with the next.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have personally found that when dogs are stressed, they always stress back to what they learned originally. I think Loisiana has some very valid points.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't remember if you use corrections in your obedience training or not... but I would probably see this as need to proof the heeling vs teach heeling. 

At class we have to heel around battery powered toys on the floor, barking-crazy dogs from the agility ring on the other side of the curtain, our instructor throwing dumbbells, wadded up paper on the floor, dots everywhere, or even half the class sitting on the other side of the fence playing with toys, clapping, making noises, or dropping treats or doing whatever they can to set up the training people in the "ring". 

The teams in the ring are encouraged to train their dogs to the level of distraction where they can be successful. So they start FAR away from the distractions and work their way closer as the dog gets the idea that their eyes need to be GLUED on their trainer. 

At home... like if I didn't have access to the four nearby (less than an hour away) training clubs, then I would go back to drilling heel inside the house in addition to proofing out on our street (when the neighbors are outside + kids are playing) and proofing in front of stores or in safe but public training spots. 

I think that is the stage you might be at if he has his brilliant moments and has a general idea of what you want with heeling without distractions going on. He needs to learn that you expect the same focus and effort no matter where you are. And you need to be completely confident with him on leash or off that he will do his part.

I guess my only concern is that if your dog's attention ISN'T perfect at home, then you might need to start from the beginning to retrain heel bit by bit.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

What are your goals with Dooley? If you want Dog World Awards (do they still do those?), you should probably start from scratch. But this approach may well mean 2-3 more years before you hit the novice rings.

You could also try an attention program where all heeling work is discontinued while you teach and proof attention. This would probably take less time.

Or you can take your existing heeling on the road to proof and perfect.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

My goals with Doo...Decent scores through Utility, not NOI or anything like that...Not with him, he is the most hard headed dog I have trained.

FYI, I do use corrections.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would just take it on the road then  You can work and polish as you go and you might just be surprised when those moments of excellence start showing up in the ring 

Even if you retrain from scratch, you still then have to take it out & about unless you have venues where the obedience rings are nice and quiet. 

Just my ever so humble opinion


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Do you have video of his heeling?

I would start with attention one step at a time making it fun, but holding him responsible for what he does. I know it would pretty much mean starting over, but you can lose a ton of points on heeling, and if you want decent scores, then it is definately worth putting all the extra effort into it. You can still train all the other stuff as you are teaching heeling one step at a time.

I must also add that what you learn from fixing what you have now, will make you a better trainer, and will improve your success with other dogs in the future


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> Do you have video of his heeling?


I'll try to get one tomorrow, it won't be a great video, but I'll try to get something to share.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> My goals with Doo...Decent scores through Utility, not NOI or anything like that...Not with him, he is the most hard headed dog I have trained.
> 
> FYI, I do use corrections.


 I do sympathize with you. Jonah is hard headed too and when he is on in heeling he looks beautiful but when he doesn't really want to give me 100% then it is embarassing. Like you, I've thought about going back to step 1 in heeling with attention. You can still train the advanced exercises along with the heeling as long as he is giving you attention doing the other exercises.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Oops - I should also have asked what you consider decent scores? 

Dooley is 5? Is he still training in field? Tag & Breeze are also training? How much time can you dedicate to working on Dooley's heeling? Are you happy with his attitude and heeling in general? 

Sorry for all the questions, but I think they can help you decide which options fit your goals the most


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It is up to you. When I got Scout I didn't think I was going to be a high shooter (first dog) but she was smart and had somewhat of a natural tendency to some attention when she was in the right mind set. So, when I switched to a new trainer I started almost over again. For me though, Scout was still a young dog and she is my only dog. That is certainly something you want to consider. 

It has been a lot of work to go back and retrain. It is harder to retrain something than it is to do it right from the start. I will be smarter in so many ways with my next one. Isn't that how it always is though? You don't make the same mistakes with your next dog--you make new ones!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> Oops - I should also have asked what you consider decent scores?
> 
> Dooley is 5? Is he still training in field? Tag & Breeze are also training? How much time can you dedicate to working on Dooley's heeling? Are you happy with his attitude and heeling in general?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, but I think they can help you decide which options fit your goals the most


I would be happy with scores in the low to mid 90's. Yes, Doo is 5 and this year am going to concentrate on obedience, putting field mostly on hold until he gets his CD. In most of our training sessions the emphasis is on heeling, especially when we are away from homebase. His attitude is fine, but he does get destracted, hence the checking out. I think as you said earlier, I need to do more proofing. Parking lots and shopping centers is a good idea. With the shop/garage, I can train as long as it takes, but I find the shorter sessions have a more lasting affect on him. Long sessions he zones out.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> It is up to you. When I got Scout I didn't think I was going to be a high shooter (first dog) but she was smart and had somewhat of a natural tendency to some attention when she was in the right mind set. So, when I switched to a new trainer I started almost over again. For me though, Scout was still a young dog and she is my only dog. That is certainly something you want to consider.
> 
> It has been a lot of work to go back and retrain. It is harder to retrain something than it is to do it right from the start. I will be smarter in so many ways with my next one. Isn't that how it always is though? You don't make the same mistakes with your next dog--you make new ones!


With Brandy and Tucker, I didn't have this much trouble. Doo has been a challenge from the get go. I can already see I won't have this problem with Tag.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Lots of little sessions is a great idea for him. That is actually all I do with my dogs. My poor Hank had to do marathon heeling sessions


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## IndyDan (May 19, 2009)

I would spend time training focus. I started with the word “watch”. You know it’s the second most used word in dog training (LOL). The first is “leave it”. Just break it down into smaller parts … make it fun.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

DNL2448 said:


> FYI, I do use corrections.



Seeing you do I will offer what I do as per my instructor.

It sounds as if he know what attention is. If that is the case I would never use a word to get attention other than what ever your set-up word is. That being the word you use to tell him to get in heel position and look up at you. Once he is in that position his eyes should not come off you. At the beginning if they do, tell him "no" give a pop straight up and when he is looking tell him "good". After he is looking for three seconds (1001, 1002, 1003) tell him "yes" and reward with a treat or toy or game. Once you say "yes" game over and he can drop his head leave heel position, whatever. Then set back up again and do it again. It is critical that when he is looking up you tell him "good" here and there as you are heeling. Once he understands the game then the stakes are raised. When he looks away/drops his head do a step away without saying anything. When he looks at you say "oops" and then start again. And of course keep the heeling to short spurts most of the time, no marathons. I found Oriana really got better doing this. 
And as others said, and you know, if it is not perfect at home and in training you know it will be far from perfect at a trial in all likelihood.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Hank I do the same thing, I do not have a watch word, attention is part of the exercise and whatever command I give implies give me attention when you do it. I do not want my dog waiting for me to tell him to watch me, it should just be done at all times when working.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is a quick video I took of our heeling this afternoon. I learned two things from watching it..1) I need to speed up, and 2) I need to lose weight .


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

What I saw on the video looked good. Speed did not seem "too" slow but if you can pick it up it might help. The one thing I would say was I did not hear you tell the dog it was right at any point during those 20+ seconds. And if you are having problems the 20+ seconds is too long to heel. 5-10 second spurts with communicating to the dog "good", "no" and "yes" till you get exactly what you want everytime.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I will add that while everything I said might be correct it is SO MUCH easier to tell you then to do it myself. :doh:


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Totally agree with Hank - and hey, everyone knows the camera adds weight 




AmbikaGR said:


> What I saw on the video looked good. Speed did not seem "too" slow but if you can pick it up it might help. The one thing I would say was I did not hear you tell the dog it was right at any point during those 20+ seconds. And if you are having problems the 20+ seconds is too long to heel. 5-10 second spurts with communicating to the dog "good", "no" and "yes" till you get exactly what you want everytime.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I do tell him GOOD when he is right, and YES to release. I usually say it softly, however, being that I was concentrating for the video I may have missed my opportunity. It's a good remider, though, thanks!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

He looks like he had nice attention there. And you are walking faster than I normally do. 

The first pass you did, he was paying attention, but it looked like he bumped you and/or the leash looked tight. But the next pass you did - that's where I would have praised him, even if I didn't feel like stopping and rewarding. He looked nice there.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You know, after watching your video I don't think you need to start over. He has nice attention and possibly a tendency to forge/wrap a bit (?? or possibly the camera angle??). 

So I would say, he does know attention but needs more exposure and proofing. I know for my dogs this is a never ending training issue and I am always looking for ways to help solidify the attention. I also like the naturalness of his heeling - a bit of bounce & prance but nice & natural with his tail going  

Hank gave some really good pointers. I might also add left about turns to help keep him back a bit.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I agree, I don't think you need to start over at all, just a little refining of what you have. I think you've done a nice job with him


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

He looks good to me! Also I swear by using a metronome. I use it every time we practice right now--it makes everything very consistent.


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## wakemup (Feb 6, 2011)

The video looked quite nice! I agree with everyone else that he just needs proofing. Lots of distraction work and setting him up to win the "game". Have fun!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Looks nice. Here's what I'd add:

If you have trouble with him losing attention every so often, or otherwise "phoning it in," I'd make a point to go lots of different directions and really change up the heeling to force him to have to concentrate in order to stay in heel position. Going back and and forth in straight lines (or even a traditional heeling pattern) is pretty boring. I'm tightening up Quiz's heeling right now too -- from having basically been off for four months while I was in school -- and I'm really changing things up. I might set him up and then:

backwards three paces
forward into a very tight circle to my right
u-turn
forward a few paces
about turn into an immediate right turn (so a 270 in place) then halt
forward > lateral step to the right as I'm going forward
about turn > about turn > u turn

I do all this at a slightly slower pace. If I do it at speed, he tends to get frantic and tries to guess what's next. Going slower is helping keep his head on tighter.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The other food for thought is I'd be careful about correcting when proofing. I'm really feeling now, as though my traditional proofing made Quiz too opportunistic. I used to use toys and crap and if he fell for it, I playfully corrected him ... which created a dog who was working to avoid correction. No matter how "playful" they were, it was still a behavioral punishment.

Now I'm taking a different approach. I put stuff down and if he falls for it, oh gosh ... so sad ... now we can't work and you have to go to your crate for 45 seconds. I want him to work 100 percent b/c he enjoys the opportunity to work with me -- not b/c he thinks losing attention will cause a correction. I've only been doing it for two days and I really like what I'm seeing already.

FWIW, I know plenty of dogs who do just fine with the playful corrections and for the most part, it appeared he did too. It wasn't until I got to utility - where he was working away from me and knew I wasn't right on top of him to keep him inline - where I saw it present a problem.

He just happens to be an opportunistic little punk dog! ;-) I've said for years that if he were a human child, he'd be the skater boy with the sideways ball cap and exposed butt crack! He's a punk, but I love him!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Looks nice. Here's what I'd add:
> 
> If you have trouble with him losing attention every so often, or otherwise "phoning it in," I'd make a point to go lots of different directions and really change up the heeling to force him to have to concentrate in order to stay in heel position. Going back and and forth in straight lines (or even a traditional heeling pattern) is pretty boring. I'm tightening up Quiz's heeling right now too -- from having basically been off for four months while I was in school -- and I'm really changing things up. I might set him up and then:
> 
> ...


That's what he does, phones it in. It's not apparent in the video but his head is in the right spot but his eyes wander. The pattern above sounds fun, I'll have to try it out. I'll also try working in more crowed areas, that will be interesting.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

DNL2448 said:


> That's what he does, phones it in. It's not apparent in the video but his head is in the right spot but his eyes wander. The pattern above sounds fun, I'll have to try it out. I'll also try working in more crowed areas, that will be interesting.


Yup. I'd do very little straight line heeling. He doesn't have to pay attention to pull that off. He could do that with his eyes closed. You start moving all around in completely random and unexpected patterns, NOW he has to really pay attention.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> He just happens to be an opportunistic little punk dog! ;-) I've said for years that if he were a human child, he'd be the skater boy with the sideways ball cap and exposed butt crack! He's a punk, but I love him!


This made me smile!  I always said if Brandy were a human child, she would be all clad in leather, all tatted and pierced and out every night doing who knows what. I loved her so much, but dang she was ornery. Now Tucker on the other hand was a Harvard grad who worked hard to make sure "mom" was taken care of.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I know very little about teaching how to heel, just wanted to say Doo looked cute. :curtain:


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

DNL2448 said:


> Now Tucker on the other hand was a Harvard grad who worked hard to make sure "mom" was taken care of.


Haha, cute!


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I agree with the others, he doesn't need to start over. He is looking pretty good, and if you want more out of him, then he just needs more refining/polishing. I too would do lots of circles, turns, sidepassing, ect to keep it more fun, but to also have him paying attention to what you might do next. 

Does he know any fun little heeling tricks(spinning both ways, backing around you ect)? My dogs have fun doing those things.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> Does he know any fun little heeling tricks(spinning both ways, backing around you ect)? My dogs have fun doing those things.


Yes, he will do heeling spins and walk between my legs (kind of, we are still working on that). I'll start doing more of them.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

This has been so informative, thanks! Can I add a slightly different angle to the problem of "checking out" on the heeling? I'm working with a tough dog who is still trying to be the pack leader. We have cured him of many pack leader behaviors (no aggression) but I have a couple to still work on. I'm trying to find a "naughty dog" type trainer to help with these last bad behaviors and then I think the heeling will fall into place? I hope!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Can you be more specific with what problems you're working on?


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> Can you be more specific with what problems you're working on?


I was wondering the same thing.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Can you be more specific with what problems you're working on?


If Jonah feels like it, he will give me great attention while heeling. But if he feels like watching the other obedience ring or take a quick sniff of the floor then he does it! One week he had a beautiful heel pattern with great attention at a fun match then 2 weeks later at the obed. show he was quite distracted by not giving me focus and this caused him to lag and give me a messy about turn.
Home behavior problems: he will take the tv remote if it is in range or take a napkin from the table it is at the edge. These are good examples. He won't give up his treasure unless I physically reach into his mouth and pry it from him.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Happy said:


> If Jonah feels like it, he will give me great attention while heeling. But if he feels like watching the other obedience ring or take a quick sniff of the floor then he does it! One week he had a beautiful heel pattern with great attention at a fun match then 2 weeks later at the obed. show he was quite distracted by not giving me focus and this caused him to lag and give me a messy about turn.



Basically all the suggestions given throughout this thread will help to correct this. Just go thru the thread and ask questions on what has been suggested.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Happy said:


> If Jonah feels like it, he will give me great attention while heeling. But if he feels like watching the other obedience ring or take a quick sniff of the floor then he does it! One week he had a beautiful heel pattern with great attention at a fun match then 2 weeks later at the obed. show he was quite distracted by not giving me focus and this caused him to lag and give me a messy about turn.
> Home behavior problems: he will take the tv remote if it is in range or take a napkin from the table it is at the edge. These are good examples. He won't give up his treasure unless I physically reach into his mouth and pry it from him.


So, to me, none of those problems are pack leader related, and I'd caution you against any sort of dominance-based attempt to fix them.

As for the heeling -- Good, consistent, 100 percent tuned-in attention heeling takes years of diligent training and a lifetime of fine-tuning and maintenance. He's likely just not there yet. Keep at it - and make sure he's learning to do it b/c it's fun for him.

As for the stealing things - dogs love to gamble, so if he can get to the remote even once right not, he'll want to keep trying. Just keep things picked up so he can't practice the bad habits and help him replace them with new ones -- like happily chewing a Nylabone when in the family room, etc. And apparently, work on teaching "drop it" so you don't have to pry things from him!


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