# This is getting bad



## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Gunner may not be a Golden, but I think you guys are dog savvy enough, in general, to help me understand what's going on here. And hopefully what I should do about it.

I originally posted about the scuffle him and Riley got into, here. 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=42410

I noticed that I failed to mention we were headed back inside after outdoor playtime when that started.
Everything had been fine after that initial scuffle. Riley hasn't been pestering Gunner and Gunner hasn't been getting snitty with Riley. It had been all peace and quiet around here.
We had been putting them both in a sit/stay outside when we're ready to come back in, with Gunner sitting by the door and Riley a good ten feet away, thinking that Gunner wouldn't feel like Riley was crowding him or be worried that Riley was going to attempt to steal his toy again. (Gunner always brings his favorite outdoor toy in the house with him when we're finished. He drops it the minute he's indoors - it's just part of the game in his mind.)
Anyway, this had been going real well until this weekend. Gunner was by the door, Riley was a good ten feet away and for no apparent reason, Gunner turned around and charged Riley, barking and growling. He stopped right away that time, as soon as I yelled "stop." Then, yesterday morning, he did it again. For no apparent reason, he charged Riley. I was even standing by Riley, between the two of them to make absolutely sure that Riley stayed put and Gunner wouldn't be afraid that he was going to break his sit/stay and rush the door. Didn't matter. He turned and charged Riley again. Riley took off, running away from him and Gunner kept chasing him. Luckily, mom was outside with me, thought quick and as I was going for Gunner she turned the garden hose on him (gently - she didn't blast him with it or anything!) and that snapped him out of it real quick.

I don't know why Gunner is doing this. What I think MIGHT be going on is that Gunner is remembering that initial incident and he's getting scared and angry all over again, even though Riley is nowhere near the door. Do you think that sounds right? 
This is the ONLY time there's any grumbling between the two of them, anymore. They get along perfectly 99.99% of the time, but now I'm almost afraid to let them outside together. I know that Gunner isn't trying to hurt Riley - it's mainly a lot of noise and "show." But I'm afraid that it could get worse.
This really isn't like Gunner. He's not a fear biter and he doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. 

I just wondered if anybody has any thoughts about this? I'm really at a loss, here.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't have any constructive suggestions but I think it's time for a really good trainer to come into your home and observe their interaction.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

bumping up for more opinions


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Thank you for trying, Carol. I really do appreciate it.





mylissyk said:


> I don't have any constructive suggestions but I think it's time for a really good trainer to come into your home and observe their interaction.


I think I'm going to check with my vet and see if he can recommend someone. Finding a good trainer around here is going to be a challenge, so I don't want to just start picking names out of the phone book.

It's just this ONE situation that triggers it. There has to be a reason - something that's setting him off that I'm not seeing.
We tried changing the routine tonight, in a couple different ways, and it seemed to help. Gunner seemed more relaxed, so I think we're probably on the right track, at least.
Thanks for the suggestion!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Could Riley be sending Gunner mixed signals that your not seeing?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> Could Riley be sending Gunner mixed signals that your not seeing?


It could be a possibility. In what way are you thinking?


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

LifeOfRiley said:


> It could be a possibility. In what way are you thinking?


Nothing off the top of my head , sorry.... but when I have had problems here, my trainer always says there had to have been a signal that set them off and usually after I have told him what happen he sums it up and is right on the money. ANd he always tells me to pay close attention to what there doing at the moment it happens


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> Nothing off the top of my head , sorry.... but when I have had problems here, my trainer always says there had to have been a signal that set them off and usually after I have told him what happen he sums it up and is right on the money. ANd he always tells me to pay close attention to what there doing at the moment it happens


I did notice tonight that even though Riley was in his sit/stay ten feet away when we were ready to come back in the house, he was staring right at Gunner and his body language said that he'd really rather rush the door. He was sitting and staying, but he was tense and ready to spring the minute he heard "okay." I stayed by Gunner and walked next to him into the house, thinking that he'd feel more secure that way, and he did seem to, but I noticed that he turned around and looked at Riley to see what he was doing, or make sure that he wasn't going to come rushing up. 
I really think that's what's making Gunner so nervous. After that first incident, where Gunner must have been hurt, he's afraid that it's going to happen again. And if Riley's body language is saying that he _wants_ to rush the door, Gunner might be taking after him in a way of saying "Don't you dare..."??


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I have been told that 2 dogs staring at each other is an invite to fight.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

"Doorway fights" are very common. I'm not really sure what it's all about, but it seems to be that they both want to go in the door first. We haven't had one in a while, but if we do have a scuffle...that's where it normally starts.

Hope you can figure out how to fix it. Perhaps put Gunner behind Riley and let him (Riley) go in first?

You'll have to watch for Riley turning and not letting Gunner in, but I've found that rarely happens (except when a girl's in season and being a...well, you know). Generally they're just happy they got in first. If they do turn and do a low growl, I tell them to be nice, cut it out, and act like nothing's wrong. Happy voice all the way. Seems to cut the tension, and bit by bit, it just disappears over time.


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## Lisa_and_Willow. (Dec 18, 2007)

Would Gunner be ok with Riley going in the door first? Maybe he wouldn't feel so unsure of what Riley was going to do. '_Is he going to run at me as soon as I take my eyes off him? If I start walking in will he take my toy?'_

To avoid those worries he looks at Riley and if Riley is looking tense and wanting to run inside then Gunner may be deciding that he can't risk turning his back on Riley.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Although if Gunner is the alpha and Riley is somehow challenging that by rushing the door, will that cause more problemsif you let Riley go first ? (I really don't know much about that kind of training)
I'd PM Steph (Flying Quizini) and ask her opinion.

I feel bad for all of you.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> I have been told that 2 dogs staring at each other is an invite to fight.


I've always heard that, too. Just like when we're facing a dog that's growling at us, or is wary of us. I've always heard that you're supposed to look away and avoid direct eye contact. They see it as a challenge. 

That's a thought, about letting Riley in first. Like Deb said, though - I don't know if that would make matters better or worse. 

I did start taking the toy away from Gunner _before_ we come in, though. His 'working' (fetching) toy is the only one he's possessive of, so I've started taking that out of the equation. I take it and put it away before we go to the door, so he won't feel the need to guard it, if that's the problem.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Sorry if youve already posted this...
Do you escort the dogs through the doorway on leashes or release them from their sits and let them enter the house on their own?

What is your routine after you and the dogs get back in the house...is there food, roughhousing, or toy play after being let indoors?


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## Celeigh (Nov 29, 2007)

The trainer we've used said it was important that I be the one to walk through the door first to show (mostly Fergus) that I am the queen bee and minimize competition for leader status. If you are not going through the door first and hanging back with Riley, could Gunner be confused with the pack order? Could you try going through the door first maybe with Gunner on a leash right behind you to correct any snapping behavior followed by Riley? It's a lot of juggling with two dogs, I know!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

LibertyME said:


> Sorry if youve already posted this...
> Do you escort the dogs through the doorway on leashes or release them from their sits and let them enter the house on their own?
> 
> What is your routine after you and the dogs get back in the house...is there food, roughhousing, or toy play after being let indoors?


They always enter the house on their own, after I give them the 'okay.' The backyard is fenced, so we very rarely use leashes out there. The only time we've used them is at night, if we've seen a raccoon or a opossum hanging around. We shoo it away and then take the dogs out on leashes, just in case it comes back.
Our routine when we come back inside is very low-key. It's a 'cool down' period. There's no play, either with us or between the two dogs, no food, no treats, even. They come in and are both very willing to lay down and take a break. 


_The trainer we've used said it was important that I be the one to walk through the door first to show (mostly Fergus) that I am the queen bee and minimize competition for leader status. If you are not going through the door first and hanging back with Riley, could Gunner be confused with the pack order? Could you try going through the door first maybe with Gunner on a leash right behind you to correct any snapping behavior followed by Riley? It's a lot of juggling with two dogs, I know!_

Now, that's interesting. And it's making me wonder about something that I never would have thought of. Nine out of ten times, I go in the door first, followed by Gunner then Riley. But every incident at the door has happened when my mom has gone to the door first. I wonder, now, if that confuses Gunner? If that's upsetting the pack order in his mind and creating an 'every man for himself' mentality, that could explain a lot. I wonder if that's what triggered the initial incident and now that, combined with the memory of it, keeps it going?
(I think Gunner's intensity level when he's outside factors in, as well. He's so wired when he's out there, I think it makes him more likely to go after Riley, when he otherwise wouldn't.)
There did seem to be less tension when I escorted Gunner into the house and had mom hang back with Riley. He was still a little wary, but it was much better.

And thank you all for your help. The insight is really helping. A lot!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Ugh - I'm so frustrated.

Last night, we took the boys outside together and I escorted Gunner into the house. We were a good five feet into the kitchen when mom released Riley and let him enter the house. Gunner _still_ turned around and snapped at him. Apparently, they just cannot be let outside together anymore, since coming back in, no matter how we do it, is going to be an issue. Poor Riley is afraid and doesn't understand why Gunner is snapping at him. 

They're still getting along just fine in the house, but now my mom is afraid that this 'attitude' of Gunner's will start carrying over and he'll start going after Riley even indoors. 

I called two trainers this morning. One pretty much gave me the 'what did you expect from a German Shepherd' attitude. But said that for $250 per hour, she'd come and observe them. Sounds to me like she's already formed an opinion. 
The other promised me that he could do wonders with Gunner, but I'd have to leave Gunner with him for a week. (What?! Um, I don't think so!) 

I just don't know what to do with them, at this point.


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