# Same puppy mill, different states?



## iansgran

I don't believe in coincidence. Did you see if the registered names are the same?


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## LibertyME

you have good instincts....TRUST THEM...


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## Bender

Looks like different dogs, at least from the pedigrees, but then again who knows, stranger things have happened.... in either case they both look scary puppy millish..... so...


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## LibertyME

:doh::doh::doh::doh:
GOLDEN LIGHTNING LABS - ***IZZY LITTER HYBRID WHITE LAB/GOLDEN


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## Rainheart

LibertyME said:


> :doh::doh::doh::doh:
> GOLDEN LIGHTNING LABS - ***IZZY LITTER HYBRID WHITE LAB/GOLDEN


Wow, I can't even begin to say how much I agree with you.


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## dunevlinj

OMG!! from the above site...

"Hybrid crosses are recognized by the following registries:"

ACHC = American Canine Hybrid Club
DDKC = Designer Dogs Kennel Club
DRA = Dog Registry of America, Inc.
IDCR = International Designer Canine Registry®
******************************************
DOH = umm....DOH!!! ( lol)

Wow! Do people really not understand what is going on with sites like this? Or, are they so desperate to get a puppy NOW, that they just don't care?
Amazing....


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## Sally's Mom

You were smart to run away from Goldenridge... just call the breeder and ask about clearances as they are few and far between on OFA. Plus a lot of their bitches get bred multiple, multiple times....


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## Maxs Mom

This summer I was at a hunting show, they had a puppy tent. I walked through STRICTLY because puppies are cute. No I would NEVER entertain shopping there. 

They had a lab litter the male was a "silver lab" and the female was a brindle colored dog. They were asking over $2K for full reg and like $1800 for limited....I wanted to ask them SO badly... FOR WHAT?!?!?! The parents are not standard, do they have clearances... GOOD GRIEF.... 

I do know PAWS (I think it is) likes crossing labs with goldens for their dogs, they say the seem to get the best parts of both breeds however they do NOT recognize it as a breed. They recognize it as a successful mix.

Stay far far away....


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## Skibum

*Golden Ridge Kennel excellent experience*

I just purchased a beautiful Golden Retriever Puppy from these nice folks.
I toured their facilities and looked at every single up to date clearance for 
Their dogs. They spent 3 hours with our family going over everything.
The dogs are raised in a wonderful home environment and have tons of room
To romp and play. Roxanne and Leslie are down to earth people who are
Passionate about raising Goldens. They just so happen to provide service dogs
To providers throughout the US for disabled folks. This is a first class operation and they have all the paperwork to back it up. And lots of top
Notch references to boot. It makes me sick to see such slanderous bogus remarks about good people.


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## Sally's Mom

So where on OFA can an observer find FINAL clearances, not prelims?


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## LibertyME

Sorry we will have to agree to disagree...
Ive observed a very different side of them.....and their dogs..
Sorry the donating dogs to service dog programs is meaningless...there are plenty of 'breeders' that donate their leftovers to SD programs as a nice tax write off.


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## Sally's Mom

It is caveat emptor time, folks. Not a single dog with the Hampdengoldenridge prefix has a final OFA hip or elbow clearance, let alone a CERF. There is one cardiac clearance listed. I am a purist in that I do not consider prelim clearances when making my breeding decisions especially if the dogs are old enough to have final clearances. And I do not breed my girls until they are of age, which means they all have final clearances.


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## CarolinaCasey

Skibum said:


> I just purchased a beautiful Golden Retriever Puppy from these nice folks.
> I toured their facilities and looked at every single up to date clearance for
> Their dogs. They spent 3 hours with our family going over everything.
> The dogs are raised in a wonderful home environment and have tons of room
> To romp and play. Roxanne and Leslie are down to earth people who are
> Passionate about raising Goldens. They just so happen to provide service dogs
> To providers throughout the US for disabled folks. This is a first class operation and they have all the paperwork to back it up. And lots of top
> Notch references to boot. It makes me sick to see such slanderous bogus remarks about good people.


I politely must say that you were duped. Not one final clearance in OFA for these dogs, so far as I can see. They very well might be nice people, but they're not doing everything that they should for their breeding dogs. They are promoting hybrid dogs, another red flag.

I thought GOLDEN retrievers were meant to be GOLDEN- not white. 

I think some of the breeder's from father back in the pedigree would be aghast at this breeder's practices and sad that they lead back to their dogs.


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## LibertyME

From their website, they are planning SIX litters just this summer! Do the math at an average of 8 puppies per litter - at 1000-1500 per pup. 

Given that income stream - they wont be bothered to put a title of _any_ kind and there are a TON of titles and events that _anyone_ can participate in these days even in Maine! Heck you wont even try to earn a CGC _certificate_...(your dogs knows how to walk on a leash, come when called, accepts being petted, wont jump on everyone he meets) You wont invest anything back into your breeding program to give credence to your professionalism?? In my opinion it says that you really dont want to spend anytime with the breed you care so much about... They may be good salesmen and "entrepreneurs" - but 'good' breeders..I respectfully disagree.


From their website:
_Have you ever purchased a pup for between $300.00 to $600.00 and thought you were getting a DEAL?
Then before you knew it your were spending hundreds to thousands at the veterinary on the pup and or your young dog.
Then give me a call ----QUALITY IS PRICELESS!!!! YOU AND YOUR FAMILY / CHILDREN DESERVE THE VERY BEST!!!! *Purchasing a great dog is a lot different than what is used to be 10 to 15 years ago. Now it is definitely a BUYER BEWARE![*/I]_


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## DianaM

From the Goldenridge website:

"If you decide for any reason that you don't want or like the litter you picked out of and you want to change to another litter then you'll be charged a 30% restocking fee. 30% of the original cost of the pup will be added to the cost of your next pup. This will be effective only if you change your mind when the puppy from your original litter you pick is 5 weeks of age or older."

A restocking fee on a puppy?! It is a puppy, not an appliance! I have never heard of that before.


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## jweisman54

Restocking Fee..........you've got to be kidding me. 

The practices of this breeder sound all too familiar!


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## Pointgold

dunevlinj said:


> OMG!! from the above site...
> 
> "Hybrid crosses are recognized by the following registries:"
> 
> ACHC = American Canine Hybrid Club
> DDKC = Designer Dogs Kennel Club
> DRA = Dog Registry of America, Inc.
> IDCR = International Designer Canine Registry®
> ******************************************
> DOH = umm....DOH!!! ( lol)
> 
> Wow! Do people really not understand what is going on with sites like this? Or, are they so desperate to get a puppy NOW, that they just don't care?
> Amazing....


 
Have a computer and a printer?
Voila! You too, can start a dog registry.


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## Sally's Mom

As P.T. Barnum said.... there's a sucker born every minute. Once again notice, that someone buys a dog from a breeder called out on this forum, makes one post, and never shows up again. Because you cannot defend clearances that are not there.


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## Sally's Mom

I know that I am beating a dead horse, but Skibum, show us the FINAL clearances. I was wrong about one thing, 3 Hampdengoldenridge dogs have OFA cardiac clearances. Porshe(DOB 11/11/09) had a litter 2/27/11. She was barely one year old when she was bred!! Nutmeg(DOB 11/11/09) had a litter born 3/11/11... again barely a year old when she was bred. Ginger (DOB 11/11/09) is slated to have a litter this summer. You can't say you have clearances for hips and elbows until a dog/bitch is 2 years of age!!!


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## ragtym

Skibum said:


> I just purchased a beautiful Golden Retriever Puppy from these nice folks.
> I toured their facilities and looked at every single up to date clearance for
> Their dogs. They spent 3 hours with our family going over everything.
> The dogs are raised in a wonderful home environment and have tons of room
> To romp and play. Roxanne and Leslie are down to earth people who are
> Passionate about raising Goldens. They just so happen to provide service dogs
> To providers throughout the US for disabled folks. This is a first class operation and they have all the paperwork to back it up. And lots of top
> Notch references to boot. It makes me sick to see such slanderous bogus remarks about good people.


Every single up-to-date clearance?

Thevenet Wish To Please - has an OFA hip clearance. No verifiable CERF, no OFA heart or Elbows listed

Perfectdream De Zelkova - no verifiable clearances anywhere.

Hampdengoldenridge Tinkerbell - No verifiable Hip/elbow clearance, expired CERF clearance.

Hampdengoldenridge Porsche - No verifiable Hip/elbow/heart or CERF

That's just a few. These people are breeding on prelims only, not final clearances. So NO, they do not have up-to-date clearances.


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## Sally's Mom

Hey... Skibum never came back.....


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## ragtym

Sally's Mom said:


> Hey... Skibum never came back.....


Some of these people look like E-bay buyers: "AAAAA+++++ Would use again!!!"


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## Skibum

*Golden ridge Kennels*

Hi There to all you nice folks who were so nice to post your nasty replies about
My puppy from Golden Ridge Kennels. I've owned Goldens for 17 years. And I must say if you feel I got duped, well I'm glad I did. This puppy has the best temperament of all my Goldens. My husband and I are just so happy
With him. I must admit I'm not an expert at looking at clearances and I guess it is possible for breeders to make up paperwork. I've been a business
Owner myself for over 20 years. I don't believe a breeder needs to participate in competitions and get awards to raise good dogs. I went on Pine tree to find some breeders in Maine and I contacted several. Not one of these breeders even returned my calls or emails. Some had wonderful websites.
Roxanne Ellsworth called me the next day to see how my puppy was adjusting.
In addition, she does donate her dogs to these therapy organizations. They contract to buy them from her. Everybody is entitled to have opinions. Her clearances also had CHIC certification as well. I really think the tone of some of your responses were just nasty. I'm not so sure I want to be part of a forum where I got 14 Responses which were written like daggers. You folks really need to get grip and learn some tack. Sounds like there are some jealous folks out there.


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## Sally's Mom

Well actually what got me going was that you said you were shown all of the "up to date clearances." If you had simply said, "I got my dog from XYZ and it's a great dog," that would've been different. You put it in writing that all clearances are visible and up to date. The OFA website shows otherwise... that's the kind of stuff that gets people going on this site.

Why show?? Well, my guys were at a show for 4 days this past weekend. My girls are all within standard (55-65 lbs). I had people coming up to me asking if they were small. And I would reply that they were within standard and the 75 lb bitches you see at the beach are not correct. If I didn't go to shows, I wouldn't know if I was breeding correct type or not. 

CHIC, honestly doesn't mean all clear. It just means the dog has all clearances done on the dog as recommended by the parent breed club. It does not mean the dog passed all clearances. So you can have a clear heart, hips, CERF, but get a CHIC # with dysplastic elbows. All 4 girls that I have bred all have CHIC #'s with all clear. And my breeding dogs and past breeding dogs have annual CERF's. Additionally, they have all been shown in either conformation or obedience or both and have titles.

I, for one am not jealous. I don't market my dogs at all. I am making observations and statements that can be proved correct or incorrect by OFA and CERF.


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## tippykayak

Skibum said:


> In addition, she does donate her dogs to these therapy organizations. They contract to buy them from her.


Which is it, donate or sell?


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## Sally's Mom

They are sold to assistance organizations.


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## tippykayak

Skibum said:


> I've owned Goldens for 17 years. And I must say if you feel I got duped, well I'm glad I did. This puppy has the best temperament of all my Goldens. My husband and I are just so happy
> With him.


You can get a wonderful companion out of a careless breeding if you get lucky. The point of careful breeding, including having complete, multigenerational clearances is that they cut down on the incidence of common, crippling health problems. These problems can be expensive, and more importantly, they cause heartache for owners and suffering for dogs. To skimp on clearances is to gamble on dogs' health and that's why you see such strong words in people's responses.



Skibum said:


> I don't believe a breeder needs to participate in competitions and get awards to raise good dogs.


These competitions serve as a way for breeders to make sure their dogs have the structure for great health and the temperament to be great working dogs. Everything you like about the breed was developed through generations of working and showing dogs. Sure, you can get a great dog from a breeder who doesn't show in any venue, but that breeder really has no way to improve the breed and preserve the best of it if he or she is never putting those dogs up against other examples of the standard, so again, your chances go way down of getting what you want.

There are a couple of bare minimum, inexpensive things a breeder can do to show temperament and structure, and without even those, it's hard to make any claim that you're breeding great dogs.



Skibum said:


> I'm not so sure I want to be part of a forum where I got 14 Responses which were written like daggers. You folks really need to get grip and learn some tack. Sounds like there are some jealous folks out there.


It's been commented on many times that the discourse on GRF is generally more friendly and polite than on other boards. The exception you're seeing is when somebody comes on and attempts to defend the kinds of breeding practices that put dogs at risk. That gets folks' backs up. I guarantee you that if you post pictures or stories of your dog, or if you ask for advice on behavioral or health issues, you'll see that people are very supportive. They don't look down on dogs, even when they don't like something breeder is or isn't doing.


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## Sally's Mom

The website has been updated... no longer are any litters listed with underage bitches.....


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## jackie_hubert

What a sad sad situation...it just breaks my heart to know that people would defend such a scam.


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## AlanK

Skibum said:


> I just purchased a beautiful Golden Retriever Puppy from these nice folks.


 No one questions your wonderful loved puppy. 

However if you come to this forum bragging on a breeder be prepared to have questions asked and deal with it. Prove them wrong or stay silent.


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## LibertyME

Wish I could say I was shocked....sadly, Im not.



Sally's Mom said:


> The website has been updated... no longer are any litters listed with underage bitches.....


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## ragtym

Skibum said:


> Her clearances also had CHIC certification as well.


Sorry, going to have to call you on that one too.

She had/has/uses 3 dogs that have a CHIC certification - dogs listed or mentioned on her website:

Sungold Landon
Millenium Kelsey Delilah Jane
Harleydavidson Of Thunderridge

The others on the site do not have CHIC certification:

Harley Davidson Ellsworth - no CHIC
Topbrass Gretta Mae - no CHIC, OFA Cardiac & CERF clearances only, no verifiable hip/elbow clearances
Topbrass Princess Lia - no CHIC, OFA Cardiac & CERF clearances only, no verifiable hip/elbow clearances

Bentley - Thevenet Wish To Please - no CHIC, an OFA Hip clearance, no verifiable Cardiac, CERF, or elbow clearance
Mercedes - Perfect Dream De Zelkova - no CHIC, no verifiable clearances
Hampdengoldenridge Mia (11-2-09) - no CHIC, no verifiable clearances
Hampdengoldenridge Ginger (11-11-09) - no CHIC, no verifiable clearances
Hampdengoldenridge Nutmeg (11-11-09) - no CHIC, no verifiable clearances
Hampdengoldenridge Madison (08-05-08) - no CHIC, no verifiable clearances
Hampdengoldenridge Diva (07-03-09) - - no CHIC, no verifiable clearances
Hampdengoldenridge Porsche (11-11-09) - no CHIC, no verifiable clearances

This breeder is advertising a litter on pupclassifieds and on Qualitydogs.com. The dam was: Pedigree: Lady Godiva XXXIV (04/03/09) The litter was sired by: Pedigree: Jrslogan'Srunfromwhitedove. Lady Godiva has no verifiable clearances. The litter was supposedly born on 11/11/10. That would have made Lady Godiva 17 months old when they were bred.

An interesting quote from the Goldenridge Kennels website on their Our Dogs page: "Our dogs have clearances such OFA--hip/elbow, CERF and Cardiac. Most importantly some of our dogs are ''CHIC'' Certified. All of our stud dogs are DNA'd, this ensuring NO Interbreeding."

This would be more correctly stated as "some of our dogs have some clearances. Only one of our dogs that is currently being bred has a CHIC certification."

And that last part about "NO Interbreeding" since the stud dogs are DNA'd makes absolutely no sense at all. Unless she is letting multiple stud dogs breed her bitches in heat (the only definition of "Interbreeding" that I can think of), there would be no "Interbreeding" occurring anyway. Also, the AKC's DNA program is used only as a way to identify a dog and is required for dogs that have been imported from another country. It doesn't control breeding in any way, shape, or form.

I'm sorry but your defense of this breeder is very much flawed. You may have gotten the greatest dog in the world from them and that's fantastic but their breeding practices are not as good as they have led you to believe.


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## jackie_hubert

Is Topbrass aware that their dogs are being used in this "breeding program"?


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## Sally's Mom

And remember that CHIC only means you have "applied" for OFA hip, elbow, heart, and CERF eye clearances. It doesn't always mean you passed.


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## Skibum

*Tough Crowd*

Again, I stand by my statements about GoldenRidge Kennels. And I can see from this forum that they're some very passionate folks here. My last Golden 
Was just a beautiful Red sporting dog. We bought him from some local folks
Who were recommended by our Vet. He didn't have any clearances but was 
Gorgeous. He started having seizures at the age of 3. We got the seizures
Under control and he lived a great life 12yrs 6 months. He even survived Lyme Disease. Having run a Fly Fishing Lodge for 6 years my husband and I 
Met folks from all over the world. Roxanne and Leslie are down to earth folks who are running a Dog Breeding Business. I saw letter after letter from professional organizations and happy buyers praising the quality of their dogs.
This is not their only business either. You don't need to do shows to know what the standards are for the breed. There is plenty of public information
Sources. I would like to state once again that I contacted numerous breeders listed in Maine on this Forum and after 10 days not one has contacted
Me. Not one. I did talk to some other breeders not listed on this site. And was not at all impressed by their responses. Please feel free to contact me in the future to check on the health of my pup. All the best, Skibum


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## tippykayak

Skibum said:


> Again, I stand by my statements about GoldenRidge Kennels.


Some of those statements were provably false, so why are you standing by them?


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## LibertyME

Are they members of the _most_ important professional organization - Golden Retriever Club of America? Given the club's Code of Ethics and their decade of poor breeding practices - I suspect they are not. 

You're statement that they are running a dog breeding business sums it very well.....this is a business to them ... It is not a lifelong study of the breed...it is not a passion to IMPROVE the breed. They breed every bitch that comes into heat with whatever stud they have on hand. It is all about moving inventory.

It is one thing to know the standard...it is another thing entirely to apply the standard to improve the breed....as Ive said you dont need to show to have your dogs objectively evaluated by independent evaluators with decades of VERIFIABLE experience and it is very affordable. 

She could chose to turn her breeding program around, give it some credibility, and yet she doesn't...that tells me all I need to know.


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## Shalva

she is choosing to stand by her statements.... that shows a certain level of immature rigid critical thinking skills so that when proven to be wrong... when the statements made are clearly incorrect but we stand by them anyway....because we are unwilling to admit that we were wrong or because we are stubborn and choose to remain ignorant. similar to those who despite all evidence continue to believe what they wish... like the world is flat


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## tippykayak

LibertyME said:


> It is one thing to know the standard...it is another thing entirely to apply the standard to improve the breed....as Ive said you dont need to show to have your dogs objectively evaluated by independent evaluators with decades of VERIFIABLE experience and it is very affordable.


Specifically, the CCA program could allow somebody have their dogs usefully evaluated at relatively small expense. You'd get input on the dogs, a certification that the dogs are within standard, and the opportunity to exchange ideas and interpretations of the standard with real experts. And you'd have the CCA to put after their names to show that you were serious about the standard and not just breeding to sell dogs.

Just as the CGC certifies a nice baseline of temperament and training, the CCA is a meaningful program for those who cannot engage in the time and expense of conformation competition, or those who plan to and want to take a first step.


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## Pointgold

Skibum said:


> Hi There to all you nice folks who were so nice to post your nasty replies about
> My puppy from Golden Ridge Kennels. I've owned Goldens for 17 years. And I must say if you feel I got duped, well I'm glad I did. This puppy has the best temperament of all my Goldens. My husband and I are just so happy
> With him. I must admit I'm not an expert at looking at clearances and I guess it is possible for breeders to make up paperwork. I've been a business
> Owner myself for over 20 years. I don't believe a breeder needs to participate in competitions and get awards to raise good dogs. I went on Pine tree to find some breeders in Maine and I contacted several. Not one of these breeders even returned my calls or emails. Some had wonderful websites.
> Roxanne Ellsworth called me the next day to see how my puppy was adjusting.
> In addition, she does donate her dogs to these therapy organizations. They contract to buy them from her. Everybody is entitled to have opinions. Her clearances also had CHIC certification as well. I really think the tone of some of your responses were just nasty. I'm not so sure I want to be part of a forum where I got 14 Responses which were written like daggers. You folks really need to get grip and learn some tack. Sounds like there are some jealous folks out there.


I believe that everyone posting here has shown a considerable amount of _tact. _Particularly when you are either in denial about the proof that has been shown to you here, OR, you are calling us liars. 
NO one has been nasty about your puppy at all. However, the breeder is breeding underaged dogs, and commiting fraud as regards clearances. Jealously is the last emotion that I feel when I see this. Frustration, passion for the truth, and anger about the lies - yes.


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## Pointgold

I just spent about 5 minutes perusing the Goldenridge website. It is literally filled with incorrect terminolgy and misinformation, and blatantly attempts to come across as being experienced, reputable and respected. Epic failure.

"Our dogs have clearances such OFA--hip/elbow, CERF and Cardiac. Most importantly some of our dogs are ''CHIC'' Certified. All of our stud dogs are DNA'd, this ensuring NO Interbreeding." This is gobbledygook. "CHIC" means nothing more than that full clearances were sent to OFA - pass OR fail. So, most important to note is that SOME of their dogs have CHIC. As for being "DNA'd" - every sire producing seven or more litters in a lifetime or producing more than three litters in a calendar year must be AKC DNA Profiled. (I knew another "breeder" who touted that her dogs were DNA profiled as if it were done voluntarily and somehow made her "better", when in reality it was required because males were randomly breeding any bitch on the property that was in season - often more than one male.)

I also have a real problem with farming out bitches to families so that a more litters can be pumped out, with no expense to the "breeder" - they come back for breeding, produce XXX number of puppies with all $$$$$ going to the breeder and all the work and care done by the "guardian".

All I can say is BUYERS BEWARE. DO YOUR HOMEWORK. ASK A MILLION QUESTIONS. COME TO THIS FORUM AND SEE THE STICKY CHECK LISTS FOR FINDING A BREEDER/PUPPY.

Amazing stuff being promoted by "entrepreneurs/collectors"* out there...





*As used by the breeder in question to describe herself, on her website.


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## pssdff

*This message is for ** penparson* * LibertyME*,* dunevlinj*, and the owners of this site. And anyone else that wishes to defame, attack, or post crap about Golden Lightning Labs/Golden’s in any way shape or form...

What kind of a moronic breeder would go on an interet form and post slander and liable, making defamation statements that has absolutely no merit against another breeder they don't even know. First off, you (all of you) are _responsible under the law for any defamation of remarks you post concerning defamation of another’s character, person or business_
I would suggest that you remove this defamation post against Golden Lightning Labs, and any reference to us on this site, regarding this comment, or any other concerning hybrid cross lab/golden pups or any other topic involving Golden Lightning Labs. 

How does * penparson* get off connecting our kennel with another kennel on the other side of the country...that we have never heard of and know nothing about…because we both have a female Golden named Porscha??? Calling us a "Puppymill" because of it we each have a dog by the same first name??? 
*You will be held accountable in a court of law, for a defamation of character law suit.* If you value your name and your assets...I suggest you remove these posts and any such like posts IMMEDIATELY. 
These forms can be great informational platforms for educational issues. I don't think they are meant for lame breeders that want to defame, cut down, and tarnish the reputation of other breeders. (*Breeders that go on forms and post things against other breeders they don't know, are really showing that they have no integrity, or they would not commit such crimes against others). * They know *NOTHING* about that breeder they are defaming, have not ever seen even one of their dogs in person, have not purchased a puppy from the breeder they are defaming, and know NOTHING about the people or breeders they are defaming!! *Defamation is against the law and is prosecutable!*

*CLEAN UP YOUR ACT!! penparson, LibertyME, & dunevlinj or pay the piper.*


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## jackie_hubert

Where did the report button go, I can't seem to see it on my iPhone...


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## jackie_hubert

pssdff said:


> *This message is for **penparson* *LibertyME*,* dunevlinj*, and the owners of this site. And anyone else that wishes to defame, attack, or post crap about Golden Lightning Labs/Golden’s in any way shape or form...
> 
> What kind of a moronic breeder would go on an interet form and post slander and liable, making defamation statements that has absolutely no merit against another breeder they don't even know. First off, you (all of you) are _responsible under the law for any defamation of remarks you post concerning defamation of another’s character, person or business_
> I would suggest that you remove this defamation post against Golden Lightning Labs, and any reference to us on this site, regarding this comment, or any other concerning hybrid cross lab/golden pups or any other topic involving Golden Lightning Labs.
> 
> How does *penparson* get off connecting our kennel with another kennel on the other side of the country...that we have never heard of and know nothing about…because we both have a female Golden named Porscha??? Calling us a "Puppymill" because of it we each have a dog by the same first name???
> *You will be held accountable in a court of law, for a defamation of character law suit.* If you value your name and your assets...I suggest you remove these posts and any such like posts IMMEDIATELY.
> These forms can be great informational platforms for educational issues. I don't think they are meant for lame breeders that want to defame, cut down, and tarnish the reputation of other breeders. (*Breeders that go on forms and post things against other breeders they don't know, are really showing that they have no integrity, or they would not commit such crimes against others). *They know *NOTHING* about that breeder they are defaming, have not ever seen even one of their dogs in person, have not purchased a puppy from the breeder they are defaming, and know NOTHING about the people or breeders they are defaming!! *Defamation is against the law and is prosecutable!*
> 
> *CLEAN UP YOUR ACT!! penparson, LibertyME, & dunevlinj or pay the piper.*


................................


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## Enzos_Mom

After a certain period of time, members aren't able to remove/edit their posts. I'm sure a mod will get around to it when they see this. You don't have to keep repeating your post.


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## ragtym

Nice user name - p*ssedoff...really clever :uhoh:

Let's see - you are breeding: Pedigree: Golden Lightning's Sir Bentley - Golden Lightning's Sir Bentley, a dog with NO verifiable clearances to this bitch:
Pedigree: White Cream Golden's Porscha - White Cream Golden's Porscha, a bitch with NO verifiable clearances and to this bitch:
Pedigree: White Cream Golden's Mercedes - White Cream Golden's Mercedes, who also has NO verifiable clearances.

You also advertise a "HYBRID CROSS...WHITE LABRADOR - WHITE GOLDEN LITTER" sired by Sir Bentley out of a lab bitch named: Golden Lightning's Princess Izabella - she has NO verifiable clearances either.

Should I even go into the rest of your "breeding" dogs?
GOLDEN LIGHTNING'S WHITE FLASH - no verifiable clearances
GOLDEN LIGHTNING'S SUGAR BABY - no verifiable clearances
GOLDEN LIGHTNING'S LEGEND OF THE NORTH - no verifiable clearances
GOLDEN LIGHTNING’S DESTINY - no verifiable clearances
and the sire of 2 of your litters:
GOLDEN LIGHTNING'S POLAR BEAR - no verifiable clearances and he is 17 months old.

Yes, you are SO much better than that other place...:--appalled:
and please, feel free to try and sue me for posting that your some of your dogs have no verifiable clearances. Since it's the truth, your case would get laughed out of court.


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## pssdff

Just because you do not have access to information on *our dogs*...means you know *NOTHING* about our dogs or us. Stay out of it, unless you would like to have your name on this class action lawsuit. 

We know what we are breeding, and you don't and you don't have any reason to need to know. If everyone on here had to really post their names and identity...we would see how brave you would be. Dare you!!!!


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## Enzos_Mom

Well, certainly nobody is going to post their names now that you're going all law-suit happy.


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## HiTideGoldens

It's not defamation/slander/libel if it's true. And (as an aside) there's no "class action" if it's just YOU. Stop threatening people.

Haven't you heard the old saying "you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar"? Maybe try dialing down on the vinegar.


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## pssdff

The "PROOF is in the puddling"...the outcome of our dogs..._sound genetics, no health issues, beautiful conformation and faces, longevity, the sweetest temperaments you will ever find._ People like all different breeds of dogs, not just one type. Even though most of you think there is only one breed in the world. Our clients are more than happy with our dogs, they are elated with them, so is the AKC...so judge your own "backyard", not ours.

Our clients love their dogs from us...we have been breeding for a very long time, and are held in esteem by our AKC representative...so say what you want...you don't know the first thing about us or any of our dogs!

You also know NOTHING about the area in which we live...we do NOT live in South Dakota as some have quoted!!


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## pssdff

It makes me sick to see such slanderous bogus remarks about good people.[/QUOTE]


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## pssdff

*Well it is NOT true, We are NOT a puppymill. Our puppies live in our family home! Jealousy drives the wagon doesn't it, on most of your counts. I stand to be corrected, about the class action lawsuit...it will be a defamation suit against this site and any and everyone that has made a single negative comment about us and leaves it posted after this notice. The AKC will be on our side...count on that! In case you are do not know, any connection on the internet, any site, any password and user name, can be traced to the computer and address it came from...You will be found and named. 

*


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## pssdff

And if ragtym put the amount of time in improving her own breeding program, that she spends on surface detective work on other breeders, and gossip reporting on this site, she probably wouldn't have 
to be so concerned about other competition???~~~Don't bother to post anymore about this...it won't be read...I am not going to waste another minute of my life on this BS.

This having to defend yourself against other JEALOUS breeders is SICK!!


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## pssdff

Maybe it won't just be me pursuing this lawsuit...you have slandered many on here! See you in court.


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## tippykayak

You have the term class action backwards.

You also aren't up to speed on US libel law and precedent.

If members made statements that are true or that they believed to be true at the time they said them, they are not guilty of libel. If the statements cannot be shown to have been both false and damaging, there is nothing to sue over.

If a member has said something that is false, please specifically address the mistake. I don't believe any of the members you've accused of libel intended to make false statements, so I'm sure they'll happily apologize if they said anything incorrect. For example, somebody was incorrect about where you live. Are you in North Dakota instead?

I just reviewed the thread, and I can't see any post in which Golden Lightning Labs is called a puppy mill. In the original post, the question is asked. If the answer is "no," then please clear up the misunderstanding. Making outrageous and illiterate threats will simply drive this thread up the Google rankings without setting any information straight. 

I also don't think LibertyME's use of the :doh: smiley could possibly be construed as libel or defamation.

Why not start over, introduce yourself, and tell us about your dogs? We love Goldens here.


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## tippykayak

For example, I can say, "Breeding Golden/Lab crosses is a terrible idea from a health and temperament standpoint. Golden Lightning breeds such hybrids. Therefore, I do not believe anybody should buy a dog from them." Because those statement is arguably true, and I believe them to be true, I cannot be found guilty of libel (or defamation, or whatever else you're claiming).

I also don't breed, so there's no jealousy here, just some knowledge of genetics and sound breeding practices.


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## ragtym

WOW! I want to know how you accomplished this: "OUR LABS DO NOT CARRY THE HIP DYSPLASIA OR EYE PROBLEM GENES IN THE BLOODLINES WE BREED." Curious to know how you determine that since there is NO genetic test for Hip Dysplasia.

I found a few more of your breeding dogs:
Golden Lightning's White Lightning - no verifiable clearances - Pedigree: Golden Lightning's White Lightning
Golden Lightning's Legend Of The North - no verifiable clearances - Pedigree: Golden Lightning's Legend Of The North
Golden Lightning's Polar Bear - no verifiable clearances - Pedigree: Golden Lightning's Polar Bear
Golden Lightning's White Flash - no verifiable clearances - Pedigree: Golden Lightning's White Flash

Retired sire - Golden Lightning's Diamond Rio - no verifiable clearances and LOOK - he sired a mild unilateral right dysplastic dog: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Pedigree: Golden Lightning's Diamond Rio
Golden Lightning's Ebonstar Black Lightning - no verifiable clearances
Golden Lightning's Golden Boy-Buddy - no verifiable clearances

Golden Lightning's Karizma - no verifiable clearances - Pedigree: Golden Lightning's Karizma
Golden Lightning's Kharma - no verifiable clearances - Pedigree: Golden Lightning's Kharma
Chandler's Beautiful Bella - no verifiable clearances - Pedigree: Chandler's Beautiful Bella


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## ragtym

pssdff said:


> *Well it is NOT true, We are NOT a puppymill. Our puppies live in our family home! Jealousy drives the wagon doesn't it, on most of your counts. I stand to be corrected, about the class action lawsuit...it will be a defamation suit against this site and any and everyone that has made a single negative comment about us and leaves it posted after this notice. The AKC will be on our side...count on that! In case you are do not know, any connection on the internet, any site, any password and user name, can be traced to the computer and address it came from...You will be found and named.
> 
> *


The AKC doesn't get into defamation suits so no, they will not be on your side. Also, you can't file a defamation suit against a website - the owners of the site are protected under the law. You can try to file suit against people that you "THINK" have wronged you. However, first you have to find them, then you have to serve them (where they live), and then you have to prove to the court that 1) the court you filed in has any jurisdiction over the person you filed against, and 2) that you have in any way been harmed by what has been posted.

Anytime someone threatens another person with a lawsuit for speaking out and to try and get people to stop speaking out, it can be construed as a SLAPP (Strategic lawsuit against public participation) lawsuit. A SLAPP lawsuit is a lawsuit that is intended to censor, intimidate and silence critics by burdening them with the cost of a legal defense until they abandon their criticism or opposition. Anyone who has a SLAPP lawsuit filed against them can file an Anti-SLAPP lawsuit against the other person. 

From here: Strategic lawsuit against public participation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"To win an anti-SLAPP motion, the defendant must first show that the lawsuit is based on constitutionally protected activity. Then, the burden shifts to the plaintiff, to affirmatively present evidence to show that they have a reasonable probability of prevailing on the action. The filing of an anti-SLAPP motion stays all discovery. This feature acts to greatly reduce the cost of litigation to the anti-SLAPP defendant, and can make beating the motion extremely difficult for the plaintiff, because they effectively must prove their case without the benefit of discovery."

Guess what? Speaking out against others is a constitutionally protected activity if what is being said is TRUE.

So, have fun finding everyone who has hurt your feelings and then trying to sue them.


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## ragtym

pssdff said:


> *snipped blathering*
> 
> You also know NOTHING about the area in which we live...we do NOT live in South Dakota as some have quoted!!


No, you live in North Dakota...*snort*

Oh, and evidently you breed Bichons and Poodles in addition to your "white" labs and goldens: BEAUTIFUL BICHON PUPPIES


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## tippykayak

I guess they missed this thread, because there are no threats there.


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## Pilgrim

'Just finding this thread ... What would you say if i contacted a breeder who, before they even knew whether I had any idea which end of a leash was the right one to hold, offered me a co-owned female puppy for $2000? Would you think that was good practice? Would it be better in, say, uh ... Maine? And what would you say if this puppy was not yet bred and what would you say if the puppy is still not bred but possibly bred this Fall? And really, what would you say if all the puppies were kept in the basement - together - from whelping until adoption? Would you think this is a good breeder? Oh - the basement was recently ventilated because "it really stunk down there." 'Thought I would add that - as I believe this was stated to make me feel better.

I did not feel better.


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## Pilgrim

pssdff said:


> *Well it is NOT true, We are NOT a puppymill. Our puppies live in our family home! Jealousy drives the wagon doesn't it, on most of your counts. I stand to be corrected, about the class action lawsuit...it will be a defamation suit against this site and any and everyone that has made a single negative comment about us and leaves it posted after this notice. The AKC will be on our side...count on that! In case you are do not know, any connection on the internet, any site, any password and user name, can be traced to the computer and address it came from...You will be found and named.
> 
> *


I was just wondering ... Are mixed-breed puppies, say a Lab and a Golden, registered with AKC? 

Oh, wait, they're not! I just read AKC's Mission Statement. Hmm ... it says: "The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of *purebred dogs* and breeding for type and function." And, gosh, their objective is: "Advance the study, breeding, exhibiting, running and maintenance of *purebred* dogs." 

Well, maybe I misunderstood, but then again, nope, I didn't. 
American Kennel Club - AKC Mission Statement

And then there is that business about passwords and the computer traces and the address it came from ... nope, that's not how it works. I was the lead witness for the prosecution in a federal case of internet fraud. Believe me, i know how it works.

Don't you just hate it when someone gets all in a flutter and spits and spurts and threatens and has no idea they sound silly? I always say to people when they are having apoplexy, "Relax. Maybe you should take a pill. Meditate."

Me? I've meditated on all the information in this thread and guess what? 
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and swims like a duck ...

I've even contacted one of these ducks. Yep, it was definitely a duck.

I'm not in the market for a duck. I am in the market for a beautifully bred Golden Retriever.


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## puddinhd58

Pilgrim said:


> I was just wondering ... Are mixed-breed puppies, say a Lab and a Golden, registered with AKC?
> 
> Oh, wait, they're not! I just read AKC's Mission Statement. Hmm ... it says: "The American Kennel Club is dedicated to upholding the integrity of its Registry, promoting the sport of *purebred dogs* and breeding for type and function." And, gosh, their objective is: "Advance the study, breeding, exhibiting, running and maintenance of *purebred* dogs."
> 
> Well, maybe I misunderstood, but then again, nope, I didn't.
> American Kennel Club - AKC Mission Statement
> 
> And then there is that business about passwords and the computer traces and the address it came from ... nope, that's not how it works. I was the lead witness for the prosecution in a federal case of internet fraud. Believe me, i know how it works.
> 
> Don't you just hate it when someone gets all in a flutter and spits and spurts and threatens and has no idea they sound silly? I always say to people when they are having apoplexy, "Relax. Maybe you should take a pill. Meditate."
> 
> Me? I've meditated on all the information in this thread and guess what?
> If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and swims like a duck ...
> 
> I've even contacted one of these ducks. Yep, it was definitely a duck.
> 
> I'm not in the market for a duck. I am in the market for a beautifully bred Golden Retriever.




:--big_grin::appl:

Quack quack.....


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## alaughingdog

*Another point of view*

I wanted to jump in on this thread. After reading it, I visited Goldenridge Kennels with not a little trepidation. I ended up putting my money down on a puppy. I would not say that this kennel is for everyone. I am not educated about all the clearances and whether they are final or preliminary. However, what I can say is that Roxanne has medical records of checks of hips, elbows, eyes and heart going back three generations at least for her breeding dogs. She invited me to come and visit her kennel when I called to inquire about a dog -- hardly the approach of a puppy mill. She and her family have adapted their house to allow them to raise and sell puppies. This is part of how they earn money. I don't have a problem with this. She is breeding family dogs, which is what I wanted. All her dogs look happy and healthy and I didn't see any that struck me as fearful, neurotic, etc. They were just good dogs. I was looking for a dark red retriever (and you can call me shallow for loving the color, but I do), and met a mother that I just loved. She was beautiful, but it was mostly her affect that I was interested in -- calm, self-assured, grounded, responsive. 

The kennel is unconventional, but I think that's part and parcel of raising a lot of puppies in a home. Everything I saw, and I saw everything, was clean and comfortable for the dogs, who cycle in and out of the family living area, which is a lot smaller than the areas devoted to the dogs. This is a labor of love and a calling for Roxanne and Leslie, and the great thing is that, if this is not the setup that you want as a place to buy a puppy -- you don't have to go there! You can choose another breeder! 

It bothers me that you are lumping this family in with people who abuse their dogs. I did not see any evidence that this is true. I did see plenty of evidence that these are people trying to provide healthy, well-mannered, loving companion dogs for families, which I was what I was after, and maybe what other people are after, too. Again, if you don't want to buy puppies from Goldenridge, don't, but if you are looking for a good family dog from parents selected for temperament and health, go have a chat with Roxanne. 

Please don't flame me about this recommendation -- I think I've established my low level of knowledge about dog breeding (except that I DO know a happy healthy dog when I see one), and I have no bone to pick with people who are looking for a different degree of certification than I am. I was interested in a red golden retriever from good parents, and I found what I was looking for.


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## golden_eclipse

You don't know that 3 generations of clearances have been done, because they haven't and you aren't educated enough to make that claim. Secondly, she is doing harm to the breed as a whole by producing puppies that do not meet the breed standard, and will not Improve the breed, they are just average in every way, no titles on many of the pedigrees, and NO titles on any of her dogs. How does she know she is breeding great golden retrievers, she doesn't, she just does it for money. So does that mean you are getting the best puppy you can for your money? NO, actually for the price she charges, you can find a puppy in Maine, with both parents completely cleared (for real), and 5+ generations back of cleared dogs behind it, and have every dog in the pedigree or close to it, including both parents that have titles, in conformation or field (for the more red color). So I'm sorry you don't see the bigger picture, outside of your own little wants or whatever, but people like her do an extreme disservice to the breed. Because she no doubt sells some of her puppies with full registration, despite the fact that even in your opinion their only "good family" pets or whatever. Honestly if that's what you want, just the color and you really don't care about the rest, go to a rescue.


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## alaughingdog

I can't defend my ignorance, which I readily admit -- only know what I was shown for paperwork, which seemed okay for me. Roxanne was very willing to talk about it, which says something, no? I've looked at rescue dogs, but didn't find what I wanted. I would not have put money down if I had any sense that the dogs were being mistreated or misused -- I didn't. There was golden temperament galore on display, and I really love that. From my perspective as a person who likes goldens, and actually likes the oddball ones as well as or better than the gorgeous ones, she is not doing the breed a disservice. But I understand that others have a different opinion, and respect that. I hope to have the same courtesy extended to me, even if I am ignorant. You would buy a different dog, using different criteria than I would. But I hope there is room for all of us in golden retriever land.


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## LibertyME

I totally understand where you are coming from... honesty I do.
It wasn't that long ago and I would have thought the same thing as well....
Im still learning and will certainly make better decisions 5 years from now then I do today...

I also know that it stings when Ive learned that I didnt make a good decision regarding my dogs. It DOES NOT MEAN my dogs are the worst things on the planet, that I should not ever have gotten them or that I love them any less.

Regarding clearances, it takes time and experience to know exactly what you are looking at when you are quickly shown a dogs clearances....and seeing them when you blinded by looking at fluffy puppies..is darn near impossible. By any chance were you given copies of your puppy's dam/sire clearances? If you _really_ want to know what they say...there are people here that will help you decipher them. 
Really good breeders will have the clearances in a publicly verifiable database for the world to see...

There is such a thing as kennel-blindness that can happen with any breeder. 
It is one of the many reasons why breeders show their dogs in conformation. Did you know it would only cost a breeder $65.00 to earn a conformation certificate? Wouldnt you think a breeder who is responsible for selling 50-100 puppies EVERY year would find that a valuable piece of information to have? You know how much you paid for your puppy....do the math...do you think it might be a responsible thing to do? Im mean if they have 10 adult breeding dogs were only talking $650.00...seems like a reasonable expense.

When any breeder (not necessarily the one being discussed) claims to love the breed, but dont participate in any way with the breed...then exactly how much to they love the breed? 
How much can they truly know about their dogs if they rarely leave the farm?
How much can they know about a dogs faults?
How much can they know about their dogs potential?
The lack of effort to find out in even a small way....IMHO should not be rewarded with cash.


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## golden_eclipse

My definition of disservice to the breed, is producing puppies that down the road could or will likely have health problems that the breeder is unaware of. This is true for the following reasons, one she has no education on how to properly asses a pedigree for health and longevity, because many of her pedigrees have "pet" dogs in them, and the health clearances weren't done and no information has followed the dog, thus much LESS information is available, let alone the difficulty of matching dogs and pedigrees, which she clearly doesn't understand. Secondly, she breeds underage dogs that could have a temperament problems down the road, since it has yet to mature, it is impossible to asses the actual temperament of the dog when it is still a puppy itself. Third, breeding a dog under 2 years of age, disallows for any information about possible joint problems, which means she has no idea even the health of her current breeding dogs, when she is breeding them, let alone in their pedigree. Breeding is more than just looks, to ensure healthy puppies, it takes a lot work and knowledge, and if having a healthy family pet is priority, which I assume anyone with half a brain would have that, getting a puppy from her would not be a good idea. You also didn't acknowledge, the price she charges is similar to breeders who have that knowledge and take the time and expense to give you a better chance at a healthy puppy...Its not a complete luck of the draw if you have someone careful and honest on your side, especially someone who is not in it for the money, but in it to give her puppy owners the best healthiest puppy they can ( taking ALL steps available to do so), you have a very good chance at a healthy puppy. You also don't seemed concerned that she has 6+ litters on the ground at a time...? Most reputable hobby breeders have one, and rarely two, which anyone could deduct that those puppies are going to be much more adjusted, than the puppies, who share attention across 60 other puppies. She also refuses to change anything about the way she does things, many golden lovers in Maine have approached her to help her breed better dogs, she denies any help. A person who is really passionate about what they do will always accept constructive criticism, and the help of someone more experience than them to become better at what they do. She doesn't care, she knows what makes money, and that is the bottom line.I accept that you see things differently, but I think with experience you'll realize that these prescriptions set out by our national club are worthwhile for everyone, the dog, the pet owner, the breed as a whole, and the breeders.


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## LibertyME

Please be gentle kdowningxc - 
Youve had years to accumulate the knowledge you have learned....this puppy buyer has not.


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## golden_eclipse

Do you think she is informed on the actual health problems that affect this breed?
Having a well documented pedigree, with titles and owners of dogs in that pedigree that share information about each dog in the pedigree allows for reputable breeders to avoid these hereditary issues. When a breeder is working with basically an empty pedigree, which is mainly what this kennel has, they have no tools to avoid these problems, and might be unintentionally breeding severe problems into their puppies. 

Honestly I post in reply to you, because you admit you are a lay person, but you don't have to be. I hope you realize that by supporting this kennel it perpetuates the problems in our breed that cause many puppy owners much heart break, when their pup needs to be put down, or they need to shell out thousands of dollars in vet bills. 

From the Golden Retriever club of America: " Just as inherited conditions can occur in humans, they can occur in dogs. It is recommended that breeders investigate potential problems in the pedigree, avoid breeding individuals with similar pedigree problems, breed only healthy individuals with the clearances noted in the GRCA Code of Ethics, and work to maintain quality, preferably using individuals who display outstanding temperaments and who have succeeded in competition. This requires more than simply mating two purebred, AKC registered Golden Retrievers; it requires knowledge, dedication, and a lot of hard work. Prospective owners should realize that a knowledgeable breeder with a history of producing solid, healthy, breed representatives may be able to help stack the odds in their favor for obtaining a typical, healthy, and friendly Golden Retriever. In addition to hip and elbow dysplasia, eye abnormalities, and heart disease, the described inherited conditions of Golden Retrievers include bleeding disorders, cancer in young Goldens, epilepsy, kidney failure in young Goldens (renal dysplasia), ectopic ureters, vascular shunts, hypothyroidism, hypertrophic osteodystrophy, knee cap (patella) problems, osteochrondrosis dessicans, hypoadrenocorticism (Addison’s disease), X-linked muscular dystrophy, congenital diaphragmatic hernias, cryptorchidism, overshot bites, undershot bites, skin conditions, food allergies, swallowing disorders, and temperament problems. Thus, the value of the knowledgeable breeder may include control of far more than just the most common health problems of Golden Retrievers. Caring, informed breeders and caring, informed owners often work together to produce some of the most outstanding and healthy, once-in-a lifetime Golden Retrievers. This website includes information on one of the most common disorders of Golden Retrievers, hypothyroidism. In addition, this website includes links to some conditions of Golden Retrievers which have been investigated through CHF studies, including swallowing problems and bleeding disorders. General health information, including information on many conditions of purebred dogs can be found by using the Health Links section of our website."

I'll stop now. I'm come across strongly, hopefully someone more tactful can interject. But I hope this puppy owner realizes i'm not attacking her puppy, just the idea of carelessly producing Goldens with no regard to the breed as whole.


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## Ljilly28

There are two golden retriever clubs in Maine for responsible breeders to join.


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## Ljilly28

alaughingdog said:


> I can't defend my ignorance, which I readily admit -- only know what I was shown for paperwork, which seemed okay for me. Roxanne was very willing to talk about it, which says something, no? I've looked at rescue dogs, but didn't find what I wanted. I would not have put money down if I had any sense that the dogs were being mistreated or misused -- I didn't. There was golden temperament galore on display, and I really love that. From my perspective as a person who likes goldens, and actually likes the oddball ones as well as or better than the gorgeous ones, she is not doing the breed a disservice. But I understand that others have a different opinion, and respect that. I hope to have the same courtesy extended to me, even if I am ignorant. You would buy a different dog, using different criteria than I would. But I hope there is room for all of us in golden retriever land.


Reading through this thread, a few questions in theory arise: Would it make a difference to you if girl dogs were bred too young to be healthy for them or too many times or younger than the Golden Retriever Club of America's code of ethics allows? Would you still just take your puppy and go home happy, ready to spin the wheel on hip and elbow dysplasia, eye or heart problems? I would like to know exactly how many times Topbrass Gretta Mae has been bred in her life and also that every girl there is at least 2 before having puppies with all 4 clearances rock solid. I have a beautiful golden for whom I had high hopes- successful in the show ring and the obedience ring- and I neutered him and never bred him bc he had the tiniest of possible problems in his elbows. Since I hold myself to high standards out of caring for golden puppies born with the best possible health and families who will fall in love with their pup, I find it lower than low when someone is even in grey area with their protocols and practices. I am not saying this breeder is bc I have no proof, but certainly I have never seen this person at a golden retriever club meeting in Maine participating with peers.


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## LibertyME

Ljilly28 said:


> There are two golden retriever clubs in Maine for responsible breeders to join.


as well as multiple hunt clubs, agility clubs, tracking clubs... etc..etc..etc..


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## hvgoldens4

alaughingdog said:


> I wanted to jump in on this thread. After reading it, I visited Goldenridge Kennels with not a little trepidation. I ended up putting my money down on a puppy. I would not say that this kennel is for everyone. I am not educated about all the clearances and whether they are final or preliminary. However, what I can say is that Roxanne has medical records of checks of hips, elbows, eyes and heart going back three generations at least for her breeding dogs. She invited me to come and visit her kennel when I called to inquire about a dog -- hardly the approach of a puppy mill. She and her family have adapted their house to allow them to raise and sell puppies. This is part of how they earn money. I don't have a problem with this. She is breeding family dogs, which is what I wanted. All her dogs look happy and healthy and I didn't see any that struck me as fearful, neurotic, etc. They were just good dogs. I was looking for a dark red retriever (and you can call me shallow for loving the color, but I do), and met a mother that I just loved. She was beautiful, but it was mostly her affect that I was interested in -- calm, self-assured, grounded, responsive.
> 
> The kennel is unconventional, but I think that's part and parcel of raising a lot of puppies in a home. Everything I saw, and I saw everything, was clean and comfortable for the dogs, who cycle in and out of the family living area, which is a lot smaller than the areas devoted to the dogs. This is a labor of love and a calling for Roxanne and Leslie, and the great thing is that, if this is not the setup that you want as a place to buy a puppy -- you don't have to go there! You can choose another breeder!
> 
> It bothers me that you are lumping this family in with people who abuse their dogs. I did not see any evidence that this is true. I did see plenty of evidence that these are people trying to provide healthy, well-mannered, loving companion dogs for families, which I was what I was after, and maybe what other people are after, too. Again, if you don't want to buy puppies from Goldenridge, don't, but if you are looking for a good family dog from parents selected for temperament and health, go have a chat with Roxanne.
> 
> Please don't flame me about this recommendation -- I think I've established my low level of knowledge about dog breeding (except that I DO know a happy healthy dog when I see one), and I have no bone to pick with people who are looking for a different degree of certification than I am. I was interested in a red golden retriever from good parents, and I found what I was looking for.


 
I understand that you are saying you just want a happy, well adjusted pet puppy so you are questioning the need for all the "pomp and circumstance". 

First, let me address a few issues on her website to try to help you with what you are looking at. She states that her dogs have titles and do all kinds of activities, however, in looking on k9data...http://www.k9data.com/verify.asp?breed=1
There are plenty of dogs with this kennel name listed but none of them have any titles. I also went and checked the AKC website and found none of them with any titles.

She also states on her website that: *As breeders of Golden Retriever, all of our sire and dam’s are**screened for inheritable diseases prior to breeding. Therefore, our dogs have health clearances such as hip x-rays, eye examinations/CERF and
Cardiac clearances are performed on our breeding stock. Temperament and longevity are also very important to us. We screen our imported and domestic breeding stock for any history in the pedigree for cancer before we purchase our Goldens for our breeding program. All of our puppies go to the veterinary and are wormed before going home with their new owners. All of our puppies are sold on a limited**AKC registration.*

You had said that you weren't knowledgeable about the clearances and I completely understand that, as well. It does take some time and usually someone to help you along so that you know and understand what you are looking at. There are stickies about what the clearances look like. The Golden Retriever Club of America(GRCA) recommends that all breeding stock be checked for hips, elbows, heart(by a cardiologist) and eyes yearly (by an opthomologist). The reason for this is that there are genetic diseases that can shorten the dogs lifespan and also cause them a considerable amount of pain and discomfort. By breeding only animals that are cleared of these anomolies, we are lessening the liklihood that one of these problems will crop up and many times, if it does, it is to a much lesser degree and doesn't affect the dogs quality of life.

Healthy dogs are not an accident. It comes from being relentless about only breeding clear animals who have good tmperaments and good longevity behind them. Unfortunately, being a breeder for a number of years, I have gotten far too many phone calls from people who got a puppy from the paper or a back yard breeder or worse yet, a puppy mill who have had absolutely dreadful experiences with their dogs. In the past 2 weeks, I got a phone call from a gentleman in Ohio who had to put to sleep a 3 year old golden he got from the paper due to a seizure disorder. I also got an email from a family in NJ who lost a dog from a pet store at 4 years old to Lymphoma(cancer). I had yet another email from a family who lost a dog at 2 years old to osteosarcoma(another form of cancer). These are just the most recent phone calls/emails that I have recieved. My heart goes out to these families and their dear dogs that they have lost mainly due to a lack of education and thinking that all would be fine because the parents "seemed fine". One cannot look at the joints and into the heart and eyes without the training and the expertise in these fields. This is why it is imperative that clearances be done so that you know you have the best chance at getting a healthy puppy.

I looked up a couple of her dogs...

Mercedes: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals This shows that she only has an elbow clearance and doesn't have a hip clearance. One would also have to speculate about the heart and eye clearances as she does have some of the other dogs she owns heart and eye clearances in the database.

Bentley: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals This shows him as only having a hip clearance and none of the other clearances have been done. The other clearances are missing.

Madison: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals She has a heart and an outdated eye clearance from 2007. She does not have hip and elbow clearances.

Porshe: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals Again, she has a heart clearance and an eye clearance that is outdated. There are no hip and elbow clearances.

Nutmeg: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals She has no clearances listed on the OFA website and her father only has a hip clearance and her mother only a heart clearance.

This is not a breeder who is doing all the health checks that she claims she is doing. So, I ask.....if a person is less than honest about some things, do you think they will be truthful to you about other things??

When you are breeding, you cannot take short cuts. Taking short cuts means you are not doing what is in the best interest in the breed and the puppies that you are producing. None of the people that I talked about above asked to have a puppy/dog with health issues. They went to the "breeder" and thought they were getting a healthy dog. That did not prove to be the case.

I know some of the posts have been a little strong but that is only because the members on the forum care very deeply about goldens and all goldens. People will offer their opinion and to help a novice person so they don't wind up being one of those people who has a terrible experience and loses their dog at much too young of an age to something that could be prevented.

I hope this thread has been helpful to you. You are absolutely correct in the fact that people have the right to chose who they get their puppy from. It is absolutely your right to get a puppy from this breeder and no one can stop you from doing that. I do hope that you will take a look at this information and try to learn from it. There are breeders who do all their clearances who have darker colored dogs, if that is your preference and I know everyone here would be more than happy to recommend those breeders to you.

Irregardless of your final decision, I do wish you all the best with your new puppy-no matter whom you ultimately purchase the puppy from.


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## Finn's Fan

"Please don't flame me about this recommendation -- I think I've established my low level of knowledge about dog breeding (except that I DO know a happy healthy dog when I see one".) Alaughing dog, I would beg to differ that you know a HEALTHY dog when you see one unless you have x-ray vision. Can you tell by simply looking at them if any of these dogs have SAS? Nope. Can you tell if any of them have hip or elbow dysplasia? Nope. Can you tell if they have pigmentary uveitis? Nope. Guess what? Neither can this breeder, and she doesn't do the necessary clearances in order to minimize the chances that her puppies will have any of those conditions. It doesn't matter whether you want an obedience or conformation champion or a family pet. If the dog suffers cruelly from a condition that could have been prevented, and either dies from it or costs the owner thousands of dollars, the effect is still the same. Heartbreak. Why? Simply because someone was into breeding dogs for the money rather than the betterment of the breed. I sincerely hope you enjoy whatever puppy you wind up getting, and I also truly hope that your dog has a long, healthy life.


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## tippykayak

alaughingdog said:


> Please don't flame me about this recommendation -- I think I've established my low level of knowledge about dog breeding (except that I DO know a happy healthy dog when I see one), and I have no bone to pick with people who are looking for a different degree of certification than I am. I was interested in a red golden retriever from good parents, and I found what I was looking for.


It sounds like you've only put a deposit down at this point, so you actually have a chance to back out here, and depending on the laws of your state, you might not even lose your deposit.

I hope the careful research of the expert breeders in this thread has helped convince you that you were _not_ shown complete clearances on these dogs. Many clearances are independently verifiable, and when we go to look for them, they aren't there. That tells us that the situation hasn't been accurately represented to you. There are certain types of preliminary clearances and clearance-like health documents that some breeders pass off as the real deal; it's possible you were shown these. There's a reason, however, that the GRCA encourages buyers to only accept certain types of rigorous clearances done when the dogs are adults. You can read more about the GRCA's definition of a good breeder here.

We all want happy, healthy dogs, and most of us don't compete in any serious way with them. That doesn't mean that those pet dogs deserve less of a shot at long lives free from avoidable pain and suffering. A dog will give you unceasing loyalty; he deserves a better shot at health than a high-risk breeding gives him.

The clearances we keep talking about are cost-effective ways to reduce the chance of costly and painful conditions down the road. Their efficacy has been proven through rigorous, peer-reviewed research, and they pay for themselves in the long run. For the amount of money you're spending here, you could get a dog that has a much better chance at a long, healthy life. 

We're not just talking about an arbitrary "different degree of certification" here. We're talking about the bare minimum for an ethical breeding, which this breeder does not appear to meet. You're going into business with somebody who plays fast and loose with the health of dogs here, and apparently the truth too. Why would you do that when you still have a chance to step back, do more research, and make a better decision?


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## Sally's Mom

Ljilly, LibertyMe, kdowningxc, and I are all from Maine. We are all members of the current golden retriever club in Maine. While I know them, I most certainly have never met the breeder in question at any function that involves Goldens... Be it clubs, show, matches. I have seen her, though, in public. I have at one time, owned seven Goldens. They all live in my house. We do not own any type of a kennel. When we have a litter of pups, our dining room is transformed into a puppy room. The puppies are raised in our home and taken out multiple times/day until they go to their new homes. And I believe HVGoldens has even more housedogs than I do. You can do better than this breeder. I think if you look closely, the OFA clearances might be preliminary. Big difference between final OFA's and prelims.
And don't be mislead about longevity. Just because a breeder has had a golden that lived to 15 years, that doesn't mean they all will... I lost a golden at 12.5 years whose mom died from cancer at 7 years. And the golden I lost at almost 12, had parents that were 14/15 when they died. As Ljilly said, how old are these bitches when they have their first litters? How many litters have they had? How often are they bred? There are better breeders in New England... Including Maine.


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## hvgoldens4

Sally's Mom said:


> I have at one time, owned seven Goldens. They all live in my house. We do not own any type of a kennel. When we have a litter of pups, our dining room is transformed into a puppy room. The puppies are raised in our home and taken out multiple times/day until they go to their new homes. And I believe HVGoldens has even more housedogs than I do. You can do better than this breeder. I think if you look closely, the OFA clearances might be preliminary. Big difference between final OFA's and prelims.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we do have more dogs and yes, they do all live in our home. Our oldest is 15 years old and the youngest are 10 weeks old. We have a "puppy room" that is a spare bedroom off our kitchen for the puppies when they are first born so that mom can have her privacy and to be able to isolate mom and babies, if need be, if I have been away at shows. When the puppies are older, they are all over our house. They are running and playing on the deck, the kitchen, dining area, living room, etc to get them used to all the sights and sounds they will be encountering when they leave our home and go with their new families.
> 
> We don't have kennels or any other special adaptations to our house-it looks just like everyone else's home in our area-minus the golden retrievers that are laying on my couch.  The dogs live in our house and are a part of our family.
> 
> I absolutely agree with Sally's mom that you can do much better and I hppe you will, for yourself and your puppy.
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## HappyTails

*Unprofessional, rude, unorganized*

I recently spent almost a year on waiting lists for a dog from Goldenridge Kennels in Maine. It was the worst experience ever. My other dogs we adopted, so spending a lot of money using a breeder was new for us. I wish we would have read this forum first-we didn't know a lot about clearances/certifications, so to the average person it looked good at first glance and they talked up their bloodlines. 

What we found was a complete lack of communication and professionalism. The first 2 dogs didn't take, not a big deal-that's Mother Nature, but they didn't tell us this until after the due date and I had to inquire a week after to find this out. So here we were buying a collar the week the pups were due, and the dog wasn't even pregnant. We asked for our deposit back, they said no. We got on 3 more lists, waited months... Again, no communication/updates unless I inquired. Watched FB posts of our #2 dog give birth, emailed asking what happens next and the status of dog #1, they emailed back saying they'd update us as things progress. It came to one week before puppy pick out for #2, still hadn't heard anything and I emailed to check in on dog #1 and #2- all of a sudden we were no longer on dog #2 list, and I had emails to confirm we were. They repeatedly ignored our inquiry on dog #1. They refused that we were on dog #2's list, but they had previously confirmed it in writing several times-it was indisputable. After emailing them our frustrations in a diplomatic way and forwarding the emails confirming our spot on the list, the breeder called us and was very rude, snarky, and extremely unprofessional. Found out our #1 dog had been bred by two studs, because the original stud didn't get along with the female (both reds). So they used a "euro" stud as well as original red stud, and would now have to do DNA tests at $150 a test for parents and puppies and instead of relaying this to us, they ignored us because they didn't think we'd like the answer. They told us we were difficult to deal with from the start, when all we had been was patient. They tried to argue the reason they ignored our inquiries was because I "was so set on a red golden, when most of their customers would be happy with any of their dogs..." implying I was being difficult because I only wanted a red golden. I'm sorry, if I am going to pay $1,600 for a dog-it's going to be the one I want, and we were not interested in the euros. We want a red field golden. They wound up hanging up on us. But it was no surprise, because they called looking for a fight. They sent an email 15 minutes later, confirming they were sending a refund and they were taking us off the two lists we discussed, then they proceeded to name a dog whose list we had never been on! They were still confusing the lists we were on after the fact. It is my opinion they have too many dogs and puppies going at once that they can't keep track. One of their recent FB posts said at one time they had 18 adult dogs and 54 puppies on site. That sounds like a lot. 

I wish I could warn more people. I'm so exhausted from the emotional roller coster we went on, it's tainted the whole experience for us. I'm sure some people are very happy because they got a puppy without incident, and nothing makes you happy like the love of a dog, but for us it was a nightmare.


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## Sally's Mom

$1600 for a dog with parents who come from nothing is ridiculous .....


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## Sally's Mom

HappyTails, I would say the breeder did you a favor. Many posts on this forum will caution you against breeders who market euro cremes and American red Goldens. Did this breeder show you final OFA clearances on hips and elbows done after 24 months? A final heart clearance after 12 months? A current eye clearance done within 12 months? And did the five generation pedigree show clearances in all of the relatives? 

Rhonda Mulholland in Maine, Sanddancer breeds field type Goldens. Ljilly on this forum has a nice dog from her(Finn). Sunfire in Ct also has some field type Goldens.

And the DNA testing of the litter should be at the expense of the breeder.


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