# Temper change



## Jenna0030 (Aug 28, 2019)

I have been working with a trainer since I got Riley who just turned 6 months. She has been at the trainer‘s on overnight visits several times with great progress. At the start she was labeled “ overconfident” and in need of a prong collar so reluctantly we have been using one. I can’t argue it does work but I am still not happy using it, not my concern at the moment...but still a concern. Our trainer explained she was first seeing aggression with one of the toys at the training facility. This was why she started with the prong collar and suggested at 5 months to soon move to an eCollar. I nixed her eCollar suggestion.

Riley just returned home from a 5 day training session. She immediately ran in the door and downed several large bowls of water. When I checked the bag I sent her with it looks as if the facility did not feed her all of her pre-portioned her meals as more than 1/4 were returned. The last two days she has been resource guarding her regular toys and occasionally growling and snapping at both myself and my husband for no reason whatsoever. She only did this with hard chew toys (hoofs) before which we had mostly eliminated or managed with treat trades.

The growling for normal toys and the random snapping are new.

I’m trying to be openminded and give the trainer the benefit of the doubt. She was working mostly on “drop it” with her favorite toy. Could the possessiveness of her toys be from her recent training? I haven’t contacted my trainer as I’m furious about the food issue.

thanks for insights!
Jenn &Riley


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Jenna0030 said:


> The last two days she has been resource guarding her regular toys and occasionally growling and snapping at both myself and my husband for no reason whatsoever. She only did this with hard chew toys (hoofs) before which we had mostly eliminated or managed with treat trades.


You did not manage or eliminate anything, you rewarded her for growling or snapping.


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## Jenna0030 (Aug 28, 2019)

She had toys the first day and then the behavior continued, I put up her toys or so I thought. Today, she jumped up next to me with a toy and started growling w/in a couple min and I hadn’t touched the toy.

Before, if she was guarding her hoofs. I could get her to calm down to a point where she was not tense or guarding her toy (she never growled at me). I could rub her back and face and only then did she get a treat in exchange for her hoof.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I would be very surprised to see aggression in a 5 month old Golden Retriever. She is still a little baby. So much of what people label as aggressive is normal Golden puppy behavior that just needs to be worked on with positive training. It sounds like you have realized this "trainer" may not have been a good choice. I would find someone new who uses positive methods and works by helping you learn how to train your dog. Rukie brings toys to me and when I tug on them he growls as part of his fun game. I don't consider it resource guarding, it's how he plays. There is whole different set to his body language if he is considering guarding something. Please try a new trainer.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Jenna0030 said:


> I have been working with a trainer since I got Riley who just turned 6 months. She has been at the trainer‘s on overnight visits several times with great progress. At the start she was labeled “ overconfident” and in need of a prong collar so reluctantly we have been using one. I can’t argue it does work but I am still not happy using it, not my concern at the moment...but still a concern. Our trainer explained she was first seeing aggression with one of the toys at the training facility. This was why she started with the prong collar and suggested at 5 months to soon move to an eCollar. I nixed her eCollar suggestion.
> 
> Riley just returned home from a 5 day training session. She immediately ran in the door and downed several large bowls of water. When I checked the bag I sent her with it looks as if the facility did not feed her all of her pre-portioned her meals as more than 1/4 were returned. The last two days she has been resource guarding her regular toys and occasionally growling and snapping at both myself and my husband for no reason whatsoever. She only did this with hard chew toys (hoofs) before which we had mostly eliminated or managed with treat trades.
> 
> ...


I don't know your home environment, multiple dogs? nor do I know your dog or your experience with dog training so it's really hard to say much. I'm not going to put down another trainer but will tell you how I have handled guarding issues in my training history.

I have always rewarded when my pups pick up anything. I reward the minute they pick up something then give it back. This builds trust, provides a positive response for letting go and because they get the article back there is no need to guard anything. Now... after the fact I would remove all the toys. Provide a chew for crate time but all play things should only be brought out when you are in training mode, just sitting on the floor playing together.

I train with their kibble. I set in the floor and shape behaviors, one kibble at a time. If there is kibble left over after the 5 minutes of training they finish the bowl in the crate... they learn the "kennel" command and receive the bowl. 

I would never put a prong collar on a golden puppy and certainly not an e-collar for this behavior. Both are wonderful training tools and have their place in training certain skills. 

If you have children or other dogs you need to eliminate the chance of anyone getting hurt. If this isn't a factor and this is the only dog I would start over as though this was a rescue dog. I would also like to see you join a group training class where the instructor competes with their dog in obedience and familiar with goldens. YOU need to learn your dog. Build trust and how to read body language and what you are doing to create the guarding behavior. FWIW behaviors are never the dogs problem, they are responding to something you are doing. 

You obviously have a very smart puppy who has learned to read your body language, it's time to learn his and work together. Respect your puppy, be a good leader and earn his respect. How you choose to do this is up to you but joining a group where a really good trainer can see you two together in a group environment is a good place to start. 

The secret to training any puppy is patience, consistency and time. It's easy to say what I would do, I'm not there. I don't know you or your puppy. I've been doing this since the '60s. No one is saying this is going to be easy, it takes time. But for me, I would not return the puppy to have someone else train. Focus on your pup and consider this a a learning lesson that should not be repeated.


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## Jenna0030 (Aug 28, 2019)

I am new to puppies so I am unsure of normal puppy behavior, and often fail Riley in her training but still doing my best. I understand Riley is not causing the problem it is me, but this wasn’t a problem before she went to the trainer. 

Maybe she will she will return back to normal in a couple days?

Our trainer has previously explained she need to “kick her butt” a little to get her in shape. Switching trainers was where I was headed??


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

There is aggressive growling and playful growling, I'm sure you are aware of that. 
Your pup has to understand that she has no toys and no treats. They are all yours and you just allow her to have them occasionally. You do need to "kick her butt" in a sense, just not literally. She has to understand that you are the boss and she is not dominate. Many methods of doing it and the sooner the better (and easier) with a pup.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I would definitely find a different trainer. I always recommend taking classes with the puppy and learning to train it yourself. If you aren't comfortable with something a trainer is doing, tell them so. A good trainer has multiple tricks up their sleeve. I would stop using the pinch collar immediately. I don't have a problem with them, they just aren't appropriate for a young puppy. Same for e-collars. If you are questioning if you should find a new trainer, then you probably should.

It's okay to fail in training sometimes. We ALL have done it at some point. The key is to recognize it and find another way.


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## OscarsDad (Dec 20, 2017)

If in fact the trainer did not feed her as required that is enough to warrant a switch. If the trainer can’t attend to a basic need I would be skeptical about everything else.


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## Jenna0030 (Aug 28, 2019)

The trainer worked with an associated boarding facility, they wouldn’t have been responsible or known about feeding.

I told the trainer the prong collar was too much, she insisted it was the only way. Riley did have trouble with “heel” in the beginning but maybe her expectations were set too high, too quick?

As for the growling, this is not the playful version and she has done both in the past.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Jenna0030 said:


> The trainer worked with an associated boarding facility, they wouldn’t have been responsible or known about feeding.
> 
> I told the trainer the prong collar was too much, she insisted it was the only way. Riley did have trouble with “heel” in the beginning but maybe her expectations were set too high, too quick?
> 
> As for the growling, this is not the playful version and she has done both in the past.


If you left him with the trainer, it is ultimately that person who is responsible for his care. That includes seeing to it he is fed. 

The prong collar is one of many ways. And for a puppy, they shouldn't be corrected for what they don't know yet. He should be led around with a treat at his age. It's rare for a young puppy to be able to heel.

Not being able to see what is going on with the growling and not knowing what happened at the trainer, it's hard to help. If you are concerned that it's an aggressive growl then a behaviorist might be a good choice.


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## Jenna0030 (Aug 28, 2019)

Her consistency is the only problem with heel, me vs with my husband. She isn’t corrected for commands she hasn’t learned. She knows fairly well with hand gestures and verbal commands: no, sit, down, up, stand, come, heel, and drop, ( I think I am missing one)

Could the trainer have pushed her too much? my concern is the trainer spent the time taking her favorite toy from her and giving her multiple corrections over several days. I wonder if this is contributing to her behavior now?

I planned on addressing the food issue with the trainer and boarding facility owner. I was waiting for a cooler head as yelling about it now won’t help.


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

As someone mentioned above, don't worry about failing. It is what you do to correct it that matters. None of us have gone into a training session knowing everything with our first puppies. I will say, that sending them away to be trained, you have no control over the situation. No matter what the trainer might tell you they are doing, you are not there to personally see it. Many times a particular training method might create more problems then it solves. Every dog is different. As mentioned above, get into a good training class with you and the dog together, and just start from scratch like it is your first day with your dog. Let the instructor know what you issues you are dealing with so they know how to help you. The same would hold true if you have a new trainer come to the house so you can see what their methods are. As the saying goes, you can teach an old dog new tricks - but with a young dog it is equally true and actually goes much faster. In thinking about what you wrote above - _my concern is the trainer spent the time taking her favorite toy from her and giving her multiple corrections over several days. I wonder if this is contributing to her behavior now? _I could totally see this contributing to her actions now. If you think about it even from a human beings perspective - if someone kept taking something from you and correcting you if you didn't do something exactly as they expected, sooner or later you are going to push back as well. Really it is no different for a dog. If they are a quiet/shy type they might start becoming more timid. If they are the confident type, they might express themselves with the growling you are now seeing. Best of luck to you! At least you are realizing there is an issue which is escalating and needs to be address. Keep us posted.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Jenna0030 said:


> I am new to puppies so I am unsure of normal puppy behavior, and often fail Riley in her training but still doing my best. I understand Riley is not causing the problem it is me, but this wasn’t a problem before she went to the trainer.
> 
> Maybe she will she will return back to normal in a couple days?
> 
> Our trainer has previously explained she need to “kick her butt” a little to get her in shape. Switching trainers was where I was headed??


There are several breeds that certainly need this approach. Golden's are not one of then.... especially puppies. Positive learning is always more effective with a really smart puppy. Behaviors are shaped, not demanded. You shape the behavior with treats, then rewarded as they figure out the behavior. Corrections do not happen until they actually grasp the command. And even I don't correct, I just ignore and do it over. Please treat your puppy with kindness not comando training at this age. Patience, consistency & practice. Read through this site gettoready.net. Wonderful trainer and will give you some examples on puppy training and how to work with your pup. This way when you find a good class you will know when you have a good class and when you don't. You can do this, I have confidence in you.


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## Jenna0030 (Aug 28, 2019)

Thank you to all for the wonderful insight, it is greatly appreciated


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't know what most trainers do, I just know what my trainer and I do. We don't use aversive techniques for reactive dogs.


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## 206076 (Oct 30, 2019)

I strongly recommend you consider one of these trainers located across North America that know the Smith Method. https://www.ronniesmithkennels.com/certified-professional-trainers/. They specialize in Bird Dogs but the basic foundation of behavior is the same. In my opinion working with someone who specializes in Bird Dogs and understands how to get a dog motivated is important and they have the objective of having a dog retrieve or point to the end goal of being a mature contributor. I am not saying other trainers aren't good but I think trainers that create world class hunting dogs have a deeper understanding of canines and what they need. I worked with Sean Diamond in Canada and it was invaluable for me and my dog and pretty much saved our relationship. I have personally used ecollars and prong collars with my dog but we no longer need an ecollar and the prong only comes out when we are going to be in high stimulation environments when I know he will have difficulty focusing on what I am saying, but he is getting better. I am not saying that you should use them, but I believe in the right hands used humanly both are important tools. I do think you need to decide on a trainer and training method thou as changing methods and trainers will confuse your dog. Best of luck and we are rooting for you to have a good outcome.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Jenna0030 said:


> I have been working with a trainer since I got Riley who just turned 6 months. She has been at the trainer‘s on overnight visits several times with great progress. At the start _she was labeled “ overconfident” and in need of a prong collar_ so reluctantly we have been using one. I can’t argue it does work but I am still not happy using it, not my concern at the moment...but still a concern. _Our trainer explained she was first seeing aggression with one of the toys at the training facility. This was why she started with the prong collar and suggested at 5 months to soon move to an eCollar_. I nixed her eCollar suggestion.
> 
> _Riley just returned home from a 5 day training session_. She immediately ran in the door and downed several large bowls of water. When I checked the bag I sent her with it looks as if the facility did not feed her all of her pre-portioned her meals as more than 1/4 were returned. The last two days she has been resource guarding her regular toys and occasionally growling and snapping at both myself and my husband for no reason whatsoever. She only did this with hard chew toys (hoofs) before _which we had mostly eliminated or managed with treat trades_.
> 
> ...


First: this isn't a problem you're going to resolve with advice from the Internet, but there are some things in your post (which I've underlined and put in italics) that raise some flags for me.

First is the fact that you're sending your dog away to be trained. Please believe me when I say that this is just about the worst possible method for basic puppy training. The dog-human relationship is a partnership, and both the dog and the human have an impact on it. This means that any "problems" arising during basic training are not "dog" problems alone. In some cases they are problems triggered by the human. In others they are problems with miscommunication between the dog and the human. In more cases than you might think, they are caused by the human reacting inappropriately to a behaviour offered naturally by the dog. In 100% of cases, the "problems" can only be resolved by working on both the dog and the human. If you send your pup away for training, your own impact on the "problems" is not being addressed, and so the problem will not go away just because the dog has been "trained". It may actually get worse, because the dog will learn to behave in a certain way with the trainer, but will continue to behave in the same way - or worse - with you, because your own behaviour will not have changed. In addition, you have no control whatsoever on what the trainer is doing with or to the dog. That, combined with the fact that _this approach to puppy training does not work_ in most cases, would be reason enough not to do it.

Second, the trainer you chose uses aversive methods. Again, this is a very poor choice for puppy training. At best it's lazy. At worst, it can actually be damaging. I was sad and angry when I read that your trainer "labelled" your puppy as "overconfident" and decided as a result that aversive methods were needed. Confidence in a puppy is not a fault. It is not a problem. Confident pups need consistent handling, but this is something that the human must learn to do, not the dog. To take a confident puppy and use aversive methods, presumably to make her less confident so that the human can cope with her, is upsetting to me on so many levels. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh; it's not aimed at you, it's aimed at the trainer who thinks this type of approach is ok for a puppy.

Third, for the growling and snapping when guarding a resource: this is natural dog behaviour, so it is something that the human element of the partnership needs to learn to manage. Sending the dog away to be "trained out" of the behaviour is therefore doomed to failure and is in fact likely to make it worse. On the other hand, when properly managed by building a relationship where the dog looks to the human for direction and not vice-versa, it will go away. With a confident or bossy pup, being tentative doesn't work. You say your pup started the behaviour with a certain type of chew toy, and that you "managed" this by giving her treats in exchange for the toy. If you look at this from the dog's point of view, if your timing was even slightly off, you were probably perceived as either bribing her (and hence pandering to her behaviour by being tentative) or as rewarding the growling with the treats. The time to teach the "trade" command is not when the dog has something of high value that she wants to keep; you have to start with a toy or something that she doesn't value, and use the treats as a reward, not as a bribe. When she's consistently giving up this object, you find one that she values a little more, and you repeat the process. Etc. You can make it into a game, something fun for both of you. It's important never to try to trade for a high-value object until you're certain the dog will comply. If you try and fail, or have to resort to bribing, you're reinforcing the behaviour, not managing it.

Last, I really, really hope you will ditch this so-called trainer and the "remote training" method. You should never, ever feel uncomfortable with a method proposed by a trainer, and this one doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Instead, I'd suggest that you find a trainer who uses positive methods and will work with both you and your puppy together to resolve the situation. I would suggest looking for someone who teaches humans how to train their dogs. Poor training such as your pup seems to have received so far can be damaging, but the good news is that dogs, especially Goldens, are highly trainable and adaptable, so the damage can be undone with the right approach, and with some adjustments from the human too. Confident pups, when properly managed, grow into the most amazing pets, ready to tackle anything you want them to do.

I wish you the best of luck with your pup. Everyone makes mistakes. I've certainly made more than my share over the decades but things always turned out fine in the end, and I learned a lot in the process. Let us know how things go!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ceegee said:


> I was sad and angry when I read that your trainer "labelled" your puppy as "overconfident"


I absolutely agree that there is no such thing as an overconfident puppy. Training in the puppy stage is all about *building confidence*, ensuring success and challenging the pup while at the same time keeping it fun.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I didn't respond on this the other day because my initial reaction kinda involved cuss words concerning your dog's so-called trainer.

And I'm trying very hard to be nice and keep all harsh words to myself, but holy hell you are ruining your dog by sending her to that person! 

I'm underlining (since we can't highlight anymore) all the red flags. 



Jenna0030 said:


> I have been working with a trainer since I got Riley who just turned 6 months. She has been at the trainer‘s on overnight visits several times with great progress. At the start she was labeled “ overconfident” and in need of a prong collar so reluctantly we have been using one. I can’t argue it does work but I am still not happy using it, not my concern at the moment...but still a concern. Our trainer explained she was first seeing aggression with one of the toys at the training facility. This was why she started with the prong collar and suggested at 5 months to soon move to an eCollar. I nixed her eCollar suggestion.
> 
> Riley just returned home from a 5 day training session. She immediately ran in the door and downed several large bowls of water. When I checked the bag I sent her with it looks as if the facility did not feed her all of her pre-portioned her meals as more than 1/4 were returned. The last two days she has been resource guarding her regular toys and occasionally growling and snapping at both myself and my husband for no reason whatsoever. She only did this with hard chew toys (hoofs) before which we had mostly eliminated or managed with treat trades.
> 
> ...


My suggestion is bring your dog the (insert strong word we aren't allowed to use here and I don't normally use myself but it's merited here) HOME! 

I am not a fan of positive only training, but they do less harm than it sounds like a very ignorant person with that so-called trainer is doing to your dog. 

Stress and constantly having things snatched away - and possible involving harsh and unfair corrections WILL cause resource guarding and fear aggression behaviors in even the mildest dog. It's gotta stop before your dog is ruined completely and she's pretty close to that edge at 6+ months.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Now a constructive response since I exploded above - both for your sake (because I feel that so-called trainer has been taking advantage of you) and your dog (poor thing)....

1. Why are you sending your dog to a trainer? What are you hoping to accomplish by having somebody else working with your dog? I'm asking that question because for me, I understand why dogs are sent away for specialized training.

Many show dogs live with handlers while being shown - some of that is getting the dogs to trust and work well for the handler who will be showing the dog. Some that is because the handler will be keeping the dogs in shape, conditioning them, and training them every day... and travelling to shows with them.

I've been told not to talk about field by a member. And won't here beyond stating that the degree of specialization in the training and resources are exactly why dogs are sent away and trained every day by a hands on trainer.

Even for obedience and agility - I know of dogs who go and live with somebody who does all the training and competing with the dog. Or very least, they are raising the dogs for the first 1-2 years so by the time they go back to the owners, they are fully loaded and ready to compete in sports for the owners. 

Regular round the house obedience - it isn't brain surgery. A lot of it can be done without any major corrections. There's DEFINITELY certain situations and times that corrections (even harsh ones) are merited. These are cases where it could prevent injuries or death.

But in general the most important thing when raising a puppy is learning to understand dog language. Learn how to read your dog. Learn how to communicate with your dog. Learn to have soft hands and be fair with your dog. And above all go over and beyond to make sure that the person your dog trusts the most - is you.

These are things you should be learning with a trainer - and I'd suggest finding somebody who will work hands on with you. 

2. At 5-6 months, I can't imagine putting a training collar on the dogs yet. I have a 6 month old who is still only wearing buckle collars though I can imagine he will be wearing a prong at some point because he's not as soft and extremely responsive as his full brother is. A prong is simply a tool to get a dog to be more responsive and aware of you while you are working with him long enough for you to teach him how REWARDING it is to work closely with you and focus on you the whole time so down the road just a squeeze on the leash with a regular buckle collar or a word from you will enlist the same responsiveness. It's not intended to change a dog's temperament or anything beyond that. And any trainer trying to use a prong to make a dog more cowed and submissive is pretty awful.

3. Types of behaviors I work on and expect with my pup (6 months old)


He can be off leash inside the house, outside the house, etc... without getting into trouble or running away
Position changes on hand signal and/or verbal command
Learning to walk on a loose lead
Learning stays with gradual increase of distance and distractions
Learning to obey whether I'm sending him away to fetch something or calling to come
Learning to keep his feet "off" - it's very difficult to train a golden to keep his feet on the ground all the time when they are young. So the next best thing is training them to keep their feet to themselves.
Leaning self-control and obedience. My pup is still mouthing a little. He's soft mouthed and very gentle about it, but I worry about him mouthing somebody who is thin skinned. So "off" and "no" are used interchangeably to get him to back off and sit down when he's getting carried away.
I teach trade, spit, leave it, come show me, and release behaviors w/r to dogs having things i their mouths that they shouldn't. <= i don't want a retriever to learn to CLAMP DOWN on something high value, which is the very mildest form of resource guarding. They are not warning you off, but they want to keep something. I also don't want my dog associating me reaching for his mouth to examine what he has with me constantly taking things from him. 
trade or spit is used when the dog has something he shouldn't have 
come show me is used when my dog is across the room and is crunching on something. I have him come and show me what he has. I'll look in his mouth to check and if it's something harmless, I tell him "OK, you can keep it" and I send him off. If it's something he shouldn't have, I'll either ask him to give/spit or I will say "let's go trade" and undesirable things go flying as my pup takes off running to the nearest treat source. 
Leave it is used after I have my dog spit something out and I want him to back up and give me a chance to go over and pick it up. Trade will always follow as this is "fairness" in training and handling your dog. You don't have to manhandle your dog at all in these cases. If you have an insecure dog - it will increase their resource guarding problems if they know you are going to come assault them for their prize. 

^^^ And I could go on and on. But all the things I've listed can be trained by YOU. It will require the guidance of somebody who is good at reading and working with dogs - and while they use corrections, is fair about them.

Considering your dog is snarking and testing the waters (sassing) - you need to tread carefully. The trainer you have been sending her to - NO. Absolutely NO.


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## Jessjack (Aug 11, 2019)

I am sorry you are having problems. I can't imagine an adult Golden, much less a puppy, needing a prong collar. Who is breeding Goldens like this? I am absolutely appalled. What are the parents like? Temperament is the most critical element in a Golden, then comes health, and last is conformation. I would not breed a dog without clearances, and I would never breed or keep a dog with a questionable temperament - no matter how gorgeous. I would try another training class, and if the dog can't be safe around other dogs or people, return it to the breeder. There are many wonderful dogs out there looking for good homes, and many responsible breeders willing to help you find a good dog. I am sorry if this sounds too harsh, but a Golden adult is a big dog and can do a lot of damage to a person or other pet.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Jessjack said:


> I am sorry you are having problems. I can't imagine an adult Golden, much less a puppy, needing a prong collar. Who is breeding Goldens like this? I am absolutely appalled. What are the parents like? Temperament is the most critical element in a Golden, then comes health, and last is conformation. I would not breed a dog without clearances, and I would never breed or keep a dog with a questionable temperament - no matter how gorgeous. I would try another training class, and if the dog can't be safe around other dogs or people, return it to the breeder. There are many wonderful dogs out there looking for good homes, and many responsible breeders willing to help you find a good dog. I am sorry if this sounds too harsh, but a Golden adult is a big dog and can do a lot of damage to a person or other pet.


_ahem_ If the admins or Carolina Mom are browsing over here - this is a primary case where being able to look back at a history behind a member (all posts, all threads started) before responding is very helpful.

In this case, the original poster has a very short history on this forum so you can go back and view their posts from the start vs making assumptions on where their dogs have come from or what they were bred for.

From what I could see at a quick glance, the dog was purchased to be a service animal - and was being sent away to a trainer for training.

I still do not know what that means, because people have muddied the water as to what exactly a service dog is or what it does. And there are bad trainers out there who are taking advantage of owners and ruining dogs.

There was no identification of the breeder nor reason to assume the dog was bred for conformation.

Have to add, the information above is why I was particularly SICK at seeing the so-called trainer trying to "fix" an over confident dog. Vomit sick.

Secondly, if this is your first reaction to pups acting up at 5-6 months and it's unknown without actually seeing the dog what is going on, that is concerning and just echoes of all the people out there who rush to buy dogs around Christmas and are dumping them by Easter because they've outgrown the cuteness and are suddenly big and untrained or poorly trained and socialized at 6 months.

Thirdly, the comment on prongs is very sadly ignorant considering the tool is not intended to be used to yank at the dog's neck. That kind of training comes from people buying really crappy cheap tools from Petsmart or other places and starting to use them without being taught how the tools are intended to be used. Ideal training with a prong is a loose lead and very gentle finger squeezing when checking a dog. Dog looks up at a smiling face and is immediately praised and rewarded. If used correctly, within 2-3 weeks the dog can be transitioned back to a regular buckle collar. The tool is never intended for long term and constant use - people who do that are clearly not serious about training their dogs.


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## Jenna0030 (Aug 28, 2019)

With the universal understanding I have sent my puppy to an inappropriate trainer.
She WAS working with a local trainer in a _service dog program._
She had gone for a couple nights in a row for four sessions since she was 12 weeks.
My puppies parents both have clearances.
I have made a mistake by asking for advice.
I obviously have inflamed several people with my ignorance.
My puppy is not just a smiling face, she is a family member and will be my lifeline.
I have run out of tissues so...
I am going to back out of this conversation
Thanks to those who provided both constructive criticism and not so much constructive.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Lots of really good advice so not going to add anything. I'm with Ceegee & Megora and anyone else that competes with their dog... this entire situation makes me angry with the trainer. The good news is you can move on from here and relearn trust with this pup.

This is just my perspective but the last pup sent here to raise and train had very little confidence (and pretty sure I was a little overwhelming for the puppy), it was just a very soft & sweet puppy that had to grow up a little before we got serious on training. It was a big adjustment for me as whenever the pup didn't know what to do she would just lay down in a pile of puppy at my feet. Very frustrating for someone that is used to working with overly confident puppies. LOL she did make me a better trainer but had to work really really hard just to keep her on her feet ... but she had her CD before she was a year old.

Basically what I'm saying is a confident puppy is so much easier to train. They are fearless. They will try and figure out the problem and will constantly offer you a behavior in an attempt to get it right and make you happy. Of course the attempts aren't what you are looking for  but I totally love the effort.

Confident puppies are the best, mold them, encourage them and you will have the best companion ever. They don't need to be dominated or controlled, they need encouragement so you can work as a team. We all learn in different ways and need different methods to bring out their best. I hope you find a good class where the instructor can encourage you & your pup and teach you how to bring out the best in your puppy. Training a puppy isn't hard, it just takes time, patience & consistency and what better way to enjoy your puppy than spending time learning together?

This is a good site to read through with lots of training videos. Watch how quickly her pups learn! gettoready.net


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Jenna0030 said:


> With the universal understanding I have sent my puppy to an inappropriate trainer.
> She WAS working with a local trainer in a _service dog program._
> She had gone for a couple nights in a row for four sessions since she was 12 weeks.
> My puppies parents both have clearances.
> ...


You did what you thought was a good decision. I can't imagine anyone that hasn't learned from past decisions. No one is upset with your decision but disappointed in the trainer. FWIW you came here looking for advice because you knew this wasn't working. That's a good thing! You should have been able to find a good trainer and sorry it didn't work out. It's hard to ask questions about a subject you are new at... you can't ask what you don't know. Like you we are all passionate about our pups and as trainers we are also passionate about training and hate you didn't get the positive experience you or the pup deserved. Please be patient with us and allow the advice to help you.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Jenna0030 said:


> With the universal understanding I have sent my puppy to an inappropriate trainer.
> She WAS working with a local trainer in a _service dog program._
> She had gone for a couple nights in a row for four sessions since she was 12 weeks.
> My puppies parents both have clearances.
> ...


It's never a mistake to ask for advice. I hope you can sort through what's been said and find elements that will be useful to you as you move forward with your pup. I train my dogs to be my agility partners, and probably the best advice anyone ever gave me with regard to training was: Don't rush it. Before I ever show them an agility obstacle, I take my pups through puppy class, puppy obedience, basic obedience, CGC class and advanced obedience. It helps us to build a bond and it establishes the kind of relationship I want with my dog. Once we have that, we move on to specific agility training - together. We start out slowly with the easy obstacles (tunnels, jump wings with bars on the ground) and, over the months, start to do the more difficult obstacles and put obstacles together to form short sequences: two obstacles at first, then three, four and so on. Because I'm somewhat mobility challenged (old with an artificial knee), meaning that I can't run and turn like younger handlers can do, my dog has to learn to work independently in the ring, at a distance from me. So we tailor our training to introduce this aspect earlier than most people would do. However, this takes trust: the dog has to trust me in order to have the confidence to work away from me. That's where the bond built during those early months of obedience training comes in.

The thing with training a dog to do a specific task - such as agility or being a particular kind of service dog - is that you can't skip steps in the process. When I watch teams in the agility ring, especially new teams, it's easy to separate those who didn't put in enough groundwork from those who did. It's tempting to push forward to get an end result, but it's never a good idea to try and go too fast with a dog. We expect a lot of them, and owe it to them to give them the tools they need.

The second most valuable piece of advice I was given was: Train the dog you have, not the dog you (used to have, think you should have, would have liked to have, etc.). You mentioned that your pup is "overconfident", which means, given her age, that she's probably very sassy and bossy right now. A good trainer will help you to work with those qualities and make the most of them. In the long run, her confidence will be a good thing, as long as you learn how to manage it properly. I found myself in the opposite situation with my current dog: he's a sensitive soul who found agility to be a bit of a challenge at first. My previous dog was a "bulldozer" - nothing stopped her. With her successor, however, I suddenly found myself with the doggy equivalent of a computer nerd: the quintessential "thinking dog" who saw the "big picture" as a mosaic of small pieces, each of which had to be in its right place for the world to function properly. In other words, the polar opposite of the dog I'd had before. If I'd tried to train him in the same way as my previous dog, it simply wouldn't have worked. In the end, his thoughtfulness has turned out to be a huge advantage and I now find myself with the most amazing agility partner. He's incredible (if you're interested, you can see his thread here: https://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/threads/meet-duster.398953/page-10). So dogs are individuals; you adapt to them and work with who they are.

I hope you will stay on the Forum. There's a lot of expertise here that can help you. Regardless, I wish you all the best with your pup.


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## 206076 (Oct 30, 2019)

Jenna0030 said:


> With the universal understanding I have sent my puppy to an inappropriate trainer.
> She WAS working with a local trainer in a _service dog program._
> She had gone for a couple nights in a row for four sessions since she was 12 weeks.
> My puppies parents both have clearances.
> ...


I am sorry you have felt overwhelmed and judged. I think everyone is just trying to help.. but I can see why you would feel this way. I do think that we tend to overdue the advice on here a bit especially since we don't completely understand what you are going thru and how you are feeling. Having a puppy is one of the hardest things I have gone thru and I was in tears many times because I thought I was failing, so I can identify with you. It sounds like you more need a shoulder and a good hug with some reassurance which I hope you can find. I really hope you can find some peace and direction in your situation. Feel free to pm me if you like. 
Kind Regards, Charles


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