# I think Molly is done.



## tpd5 (Nov 7, 2013)

Have you tried doing any walk out blinds with her? I find them to be great at building confidence and momentum.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Viv I'm telling you Kat and Molly are related. Kat has been a bit down lately too. I suggest giving her a complete break just playing with her and the puppy in the field and letting her be free. Don't stop forever you've put so much work into her. I'm hoping this cooler weather helps get Kat a bit more frisky and it might be the same with Molly. You and I are also alike and I get overwhelmed and want to stop but even after a week of break I want to get back in and Kat always does better after that. This tells me that both of you just need to chill out and have fun for a week. And why can't you cheerlead in a group? I was cheering proof on even at the derby! I'm done with caring about that ha ha


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Are you using bumpers or birds for the blinds? Darcy is not very excited if there are bumpers. 
Last week I was getting excited about our training and was ready to try more and more difficult blinds. We only had one blind set up. So I asked to set up another blind that was a bit more difficult. The response was, let's do that next time; while it is good to challenge the dog, every now and then you need to give them freebies to keep the attitude up. And the person was correct. Rose zoomed in and zoomed back, no whistle stop. She came back excited to go on another blind. I forget where I read that you should always stop when the dog is wanting to do more to keep the drive and confidence in them. "Less is more".


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## GoldenSkies (Feb 27, 2014)

I got sad reading your post. I'm no professional but maybe giving her (and you) a break and then eventually starting again with a lot of enthusiasm would help. I hope this is just a bump in the road for you and she will gain her confidence back soon. Who knows maybe if you guys take a break she will really miss it and then get excited when she is out there again.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> Are you using bumpers or birds for the blinds? Darcy is not very excited if there are bumpers.
> Last week I was getting excited about our training and was ready to try more and more difficult blinds. We only had one blind set up. So I asked to set up another blind that was a bit more difficult. The response was, let's do that next time; while it is good to challenge the dog, every now and then you need to give them freebies to keep the attitude up. And the person was correct. Rose zoomed in and zoomed back, no whistle stop. She came back excited to go on another blind. I forget where I read that you should always stop when the dog is wanting to do more to keep the drive and confidence in them. "Less is more".


it is a blind retrieve the dog doesn't know if it is a bird or a bumper. so your point is dumb!!! i say back and you go i personally don't care if it is a walk or a full out sprint the judges have no idea if that is the fasted the dog will go on a blind, as long as the dog stops on a whistle and takes a cast to the bird or the line then keep on doing what you are doing.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm so sorry to read this. My heart went out to you reading this. At the end of last winter, I had a training session where my little spitfire was released... and she sort of took a few half-hearted steps, looked out towards the mark, back at me, and just stood there. She had never not shot away from me towards the mark. I called her back, resent her, same thing. It broke my heart. I never really figured out what it was - the same boring field we'd been training in all winter (due to weather), the fact that I had recently stopped using verbal praise and went entirely to whistle, or that we had just been doing too much work and not enough play? Or something else? We took a couple weeks break, played lots of ball and had fun, I returned to verbal praise, and she perked back up. But it was heartwrenching as I wondered if she just didn't enjoy it anymore. For all we know, both Molly and Shala might just have been feeling tired or a bit under the weather on their respective down days. I wouldn't give up on Molly yet. Take a little break, have some fun, then head out with her again. You'll know how she's feeling. Lord knows, I am a total beginner, but if you think it might be a confidence thing, maybe step back and do some marks you know she will ace, forget the blinds for a bit, let her get her confidence back a bit, and then build back up? Might be worth a try.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> it is a blind retrieve the dog doesn't know if it is a bird or a bumper. so your point is dumb!!! i say back and you go i personally don't care if it is a walk or a full out sprint the judges have no idea if that is the fasted the dog will go on a blind, as long as the dog stops on a whistle and takes a cast to the bird or the line then keep on doing what you are doing.


WOW Ben! Bad day today? Really? So repeatedly you tell your dog "dead bird" and the dog is sent for a bumper and the dog will not associate the "dead bird" with a bumper and therefore not very excited to go pick up yet another plastic bumper? Who is dumb here?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Vhuynh

Just my opinion---from what you describe I believe that Molly might need a different approach to training. I have seen many non-field Goldens being trained in the field. They can do the work. However they need to be trained differently from the true field dogs. I have one in mind. She is mellow. She runs good marks and is doing blinds. She does them without much enthusiasm. The owner who trains her gives her less work during training than he gives other dogs. The pressure of more training is too much for her. However, he runs her in hunt tests and works her at a shooting preserve for continental shoots. She is not a trial dog but can work. 

Bottom line: Sometimes less is better. You might get more from Molly by doing less. If she likes birds don't kill that by forcing her to do work until it becomes unpleasant. Don't forget, she is not a trial dog.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Viv I'm telling you Kat and Molly are related. Kat has been a bit down lately too. I suggest giving her a complete break just playing with her and the puppy in the field and letting her be free. Don't stop forever you've put so much work into her. I'm hoping this cooler weather helps get Kat a bit more frisky and it might be the same with Molly. You and I are also alike and I get overwhelmed and want to stop but even after a week of break I want to get back in and Kat always does better after that. This tells me that both of you just need to chill out and have fun for a week. And why can't you cheerlead in a group? I was cheering proof on even at the derby! I'm done with caring about that ha ha


I saw that video and I loved it when you cheered for Proof, at a FIELD TRIAL no less!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

gdgli said:


> Vhuynh
> 
> Just my opinion---from what you describe I believe that Molly might need a different approach to training. I have seen many non-field Goldens being trained in the field. They can do the work. However they need to be trained differently from the true field dogs. I have one in mind. She is mellow. She runs good marks and is doing blinds. She does them without much enthusiasm. The owner who trains her gives her less work during training than he gives other dogs. The pressure of more training is too much for her. However, he runs her in hunt tests and works her at a shooting preserve for continental shoots. She is not a trial dog but can work.
> 
> Bottom line: Sometimes less is better. You might get more from Molly by doing less. If she likes birds don't kill that by forcing her to do work until it becomes unpleasant. Don't forget, she is not a trial dog.


Thank you. I needed this.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I really appreciate the responses. I really needed to vent and get it out of my system and this really helped me organize my thoughts.

I realized that it had been awhile since we had gone out alone to just run marks (we had been doing more handling). So, we did go out today and ran some short marks. She was very enthusiastic, very driven. No slow and lazy returns. I sent her to a white stake 40 yards away and she ran out and back. She absolutely loved this session. So, it all comes back to the group training dynamic. She just doesn't like it.

I guess we will just have fun by ourselves for awhile. I'm not going to do FTP. I hope this doesn't turn into another one of those things where the conditions have to be just right -- run to a blind for me but walk to a blind when we train in a group just like how she runs back from marks with me, but walks back at other times. It is just upsetting to see. I'm sure some people might even think I'm in the wrong sport with the wrong dog (maybe I am). One day I will post a video of how she runs for me, and I don't think anybody would believe that she has the problems that I describe, but she does. Maybe this run/walk stuff doesn't matter and that I am putting too much emphasis on momentum, but it is important to me, because I know she has it. I want to see her enjoy this because I know she does! And I want others to see it too! I might be crazy but I think she even MARKS better when training alone with me. That might make sense -- there's no stress weighing her down at the line.

She was like this in obedience as well. Worked so enthusiastically for me, but would stress out in class and in the ring.

I hope she enjoys upland hunting next week, but we're going to stop training for awhile and just run marks for fun.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I just reread your original post. Why not form a new smaller group of "cheerleaders" to train together? I think that you really know your dog better than anyone else.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

George is right, just form a group of very vocal enthusiastic cheerleaders that meet once in a while. That way Molly can start to understand that not all groups have to be stressful and it keeps her running in front of other people. At this point now, people that train with me have gotten used to it. And also, I've been at two tests where the senior judges actually told me they love it when they see handlers root on their dogs after good work! Its exciting when they are excelling and why not tell them so? It gets them feedback they might need. I know Katniss needs to know she is doing it right or she slows down, stressed that she isn't. 

I have a question for you, Vivian. I get very bad stage fright and Katniss is attuned to me. The more I run in front of people the more my stage fright disappears and Kat has gotten a bit faster. Do you think that this could possibly be a problem you have? I just want to do it well and not have everyone rolling their eyes at me so I get stressed out. I am also very protective of Katniss because a lot of people in the beginning made fun of her for being slow which also gave me a complex. All of these things get to me mentally and I know they shouldn't but sometimes they do. Perhaps this is happening with you? That is my main reason for training on my own. Now, that Im' more confident I enjoy training with other people a lot more.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

krazybronco2 said:


> it is a blind retrieve the dog doesn't know if it is a bird or a bumper. so your point is dumb!!! i say back and you go i personally don't care if it is a walk or a full out sprint the judges have no idea if that is the fasted the dog will go on a blind, as long as the dog stops on a whistle and takes a cast to the bird or the line then keep on doing what you are doing.


I do agree, a blind is a blind. But there is context here. If you are doing multiple blinds the dog knows after the first one whether or not the blind is a bumper or a duck. If this is training it is very likely that there are multiple blinds. Even if a single blind, if others have run before you your dog will definitely know if there are ducks out there. I know that for any training Buffy runs just a little differently for a duck. Actually a lot differently.

Ever run bumper blinds after doing marks with birds? I do not like this practice but I have seen it done. Try it once and see what happens. (Don't cheat, use red or orange bumpers.  )

As for stopping and taking a cast, I personally prefer plenty of style. I do agree with you, as long as the dog goes and takes a cast, that is what matters. However when I buy a pup I hope to get the style that I like---quick to respond to all commands to work. And there are ways to develop just a little more style.

I personally would welcome working with someone like Molly. In fact, I have been working with one.

My $.02.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> George is right, just form a group of very vocal enthusiastic cheerleaders that meet once in a while. That way Molly can start to understand that not all groups have to be stressful and it keeps her running in front of other people. At this point now, people that train with me have gotten used to it. And also, I've been at two tests where the senior judges actually told me they love it when they see handlers root on their dogs after good work! Its exciting when they are excelling and why not tell them so? It gets them feedback they might need. I know Katniss needs to know she is doing it right or she slows down, stressed that she isn't.
> 
> I have a question for you, Vivian. I get very bad stage fright and Katniss is attuned to me. The more I run in front of people the more my stage fright disappears and Kat has gotten a bit faster. Do you think that this could possibly be a problem you have? I just want to do it well and not have everyone rolling their eyes at me so I get stressed out. I am also very protective of Katniss because a lot of people in the beginning made fun of her for being slow which also gave me a complex. All of these things get to me mentally and I know they shouldn't but sometimes they do. Perhaps this is happening with you? That is my main reason for training on my own. Now, that Im' more confident I enjoy training with other people a lot more.


I do get stage fright and worry at the line. One time, this guy I train with wanted to run our dogs quickly and take down before it started raining. When Molly was making her slow return, he said "take your time, Molly". I know he didn't mean to hurt my feelings but that comment really bothered me. And when we run into issues on a blind, I feel self conscious of others watching me resolve them and what they think about my approach. I'm just more confident as a handler when there's nobody to watch me. Molly needs a new handler.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Vivian - I know very little about field work, but based on the "opinions" of a lot of people when it comes to dogs not bred specifically for field... I think you need to take credit for what you've accomplished with your dog. It's not just the actual titles or being able to trust that your dog is going to know what she's doing out there - it's the fact that you had the grit to actually stick to it and have something to show for it. 

She has her WCX and her JH - which you think about it, a ton of conformation breeders out there would be thrilled to have behind their dog's names. A lot of these people don't really go beyond those titles because it gets hard and expensive if you are not committed to going far in the sport. 

Add to that you also got her CD. Again, low level title for people in obedience... but a huge deal for people in conformation. Especially those who treat the CGC as something to hang their "I bred my dog for obedience" or "Proof that I personally did SOMETHING with my dog" hats on. 

So I'm saying you need to take credit for all you've done. 

And the rest is really up to you. Me personally, I quit obedience with my Jacks because between his back starting to develop issues after an injury + his anxiety issues, it wasn't worth forcing him to continue beyond what he had already accomplished. A CD might not be much to people within the sport, but I know it's worth by how much went into overcoming issues to get there. Also, the value of a title isn't the stupid initials you put after your dog's name or the pictures you hang on the wall... it's the memories you made with your dog getting that title + what you've learned along the way. 

I guarantee that the next dog you own will have a better start to things than Molly because of everything you've likely learned with Molly.

So again - it might not be time to retire her for good from going further. But you can probably feel better about what you've done and be able to carry yourself with more confidence in front of those people who - let's face it, there's a lot of people in field, obedience, and conformation who are not very tactful or patient. All the worse too when you have dogs not bred for the respective sports and or people going a different route than the norm. It's just a fact of life.... I'd still do training groups to learn from, but I wouldn't let comments get to you. Good luck!


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> WOW Ben! Bad day today? Really? So repeatedly you tell your dog "dead bird" and the dog is sent for a bumper and the dog will not associate the "dead bird" with a bumper and therefore not very excited to go pick up yet another plastic bumper? Who is dumb here?


first i don't tell my dog "dead bird" i say sit line the dog up and kick it off with "back". i see no point in using that command i also don't tell my dog to "mark" before the birds are going off. sit means sit and look out.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

gdgli said:


> I do agree, a blind is a blind. But there is context here. If you are doing multiple blinds the dog knows after the first one whether or not the blind is a bumper or a duck. If this is training it is very likely that there are multiple blinds. Even if a single blind, if others have run before you your dog will definitely know if there are ducks out there. I know that for any training Buffy runs just a little differently for a duck. Actually a lot differently.
> 
> Ever run bumper blinds after doing marks with birds? I do not like this practice but I have seen it done. Try it once and see what happens. (Don't cheat, use red or orange bumpers.  )
> 
> ...


yes i have done all of that. and i very seldom run blinds with birds because dogs will start hunting more at the end if you us birds. also my dog is slower on blinds than marks at first i worried about it but talked to some other people and they said the same thing i said earlier stop on the whistle take the cast doesnt matter how fast they run. 

and i train with shelby we have these conversations all the time over different subjects and sometimes come to blows over issues but we get over them talk it out and keep training.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Megora said:


> Vivian - I know very little about field work, but based on the "opinions" of a lot of people when it comes to dogs not bred specifically for field... I think you need to take credit for what you've accomplished with your dog. It's not just the actual titles or being able to trust that your dog is going to know what she's doing out there - it's the fact that you had the grit to actually stick to it and have something to show for it.
> 
> She has her WCX and her JH - which you think about it, a ton of conformation breeders out there would be thrilled to have behind their dog's names. A lot of these people don't really go beyond those titles because it gets hard and expensive if you are not committed to going far in the sport.
> 
> ...


I agree with this.


Another thing to consider is that Molly has never spent time with a Pro. You have day trained with one but she has never been in training with one, couple that with this is your first dog. Trust me I have been there, comparing dogs progress who have been exclusively trained by a Pro or who went through basics or advance training with one. It took me much longer to get us there and we had breakdowns and had to retrench along the way. It can be hard to take when dogs you ran JH with are getting MH passes while you are still running SH.


Vivian, what is your goal for Molly. SH, MH?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Isn't that the truth! Good point, Holly. Its so frustrating when you see other people with their dogs after coming back from the pro. Logically you know that of course that is the reason they are moving so fast. On the other hand it is still daunting. 
I will tell you this, I don't think Katniss would do well with a pro so that doesn't phase me.She is very soft and sensitive and honestly I don't think a pro could do anything with her I couldn't because I'm not sure she could handle the pressure. She is just not a high moving dog. But Proof, man, it would be so easy to just send him off (and sell a kidney to do it) and I know he'd achieve so much success with a pro. Shoot, there is a very well known pro down the road from me and I'm pretty sure he'd take Proof (he picks who goes on his truck) but I just can't do it. I really enjoy training him on my own and it would be like buying a knock off LV purse, I couldn't brag about him in the same way. But this is me personally, I don't knock people that don't train their own dogs.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Pros,Pros,Pros...
Give me a break people.
Training a dog to Master level, first takes a good dog from a good pedigree. Then a little knowledge of dogs and the sport you pursue. A Pro is not necesarry for this,lol.

If, you have a dog of non field lines, a pro won't change that!!! But he'll gladly take your money.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Poppy I agree with you, you don't need a pro to train Master if you enjoy your stuff. I mean you are just getting the dog to pass a standard. You know what made me laugh this past week? I was running a WC for God's sake and I heard this lady never shut up about something I did that the judge told me I could do. She was saying it was against the rule book, blah blah blah. I was thinking, geez, lady, this is a WC. Every darn dog can pass if they pick up the birds. I couldn't understand why she was so hung up on it, like we were actually competing against each other or what I did would affect her chances. She is just blabbing all on the video my husband was filming of us. Sad old dog lady. 

I never cared about pros until I started looking into field trials. It does suck when a pro has 25 dogs in a 50 dog trial, not to mention the pro is REALLY good. The odds statistically are piled against everyone else. BUT I will say, if I ever beat one of these pros, man that is better than anything I could think of except for my wedding day and the birth of my children, ha ha ha.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not a field guy, but just one thing I noticed: you talk about stress of your own when in the ring for obedience or on the line. Dogs can get really attuned to that. So they have fun when it "doesn't count," but they get really unhappy and learn to dislike work when the human is feeling too much pressure. So one thing to think about (can't hurt) is your own vibes and the way you're changing your face, gait, and tone as you experience more stress. You can't keep your body totally in check, but you might be able to help her out if you can be even a little more "normal" and fun in those higher pressure situations.

Good luck either way! Like I said, field isn't my game, so take my $0.02 or leave 'em.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

hollyk said:


> Vivian, what is your goal for Molly. SH, MH?


I'm pretty sure she can get her SH now. She might be one of the more prepared dogs in a senior test especially when test season starts up again. We just need to actually run the tests. 

At one point, early this year when she ran very enthusiastically for me after months of solo training, I thought maybe she could eventually train for master. She has obviously improved a lot since then, but I seem to gauge our success based on her momentum. Her skill level is much higher now, but her momentum isn't there anymore. I hate running her and not seeing that she's happy doing the work, so at this point we may just get our senior and be done with. 

I know titles don't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but last week when I really believed it might be over for Molly, I was a little bummed that she doesn't even have the SH behind her name because a JH does not show what she can do.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pro is running clients dogs. Not the passion or desire you carry to the line with your own dog.

Never be intimidated by the army, trust in yourself and your dog!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> I'm not a field guy, but just one thing I noticed: you talk about stress of your own when in the ring for obedience or on the line. Dogs can get really attuned to that. So they have fun when it "doesn't count," but they get really unhappy and learn to dislike work when the human is feeling too much pressure. So one thing to think about (can't hurt) is your own vibes and the way you're changing your face, gait, and tone as you experience more stress. You can't keep your body totally in check, but you might be able to help her out if you can be even a little more "normal" and fun in those higher pressure situations.
> 
> Good luck either way! Like I said, field isn't my game, so take my $0.02 or leave 'em.


Trying to act normal -- I'm sure you know it is much easier said than done.  I do try, though.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I agree that stress goes right down the leash. Lucy gets a hot spot before every dog show. Never fails even in January. It's all me, not her.

Vivian, before you run your girl in senior, you should consider marshaling or throwing birds for a senior hunt test a few times. It might help you if you can attend the event without any pressure to do something with your dog. Then later after you volunteer a few times, maybe offer your dog as a the test dog. It's a different environment than a full senior test. It will give you an idea of how you and Molly will do.

I do feel for you. My show puppy is not biddable at all. She does nothing for me, only for herself. She's a nice dog and all, but definitely difficult to train and move ahead. She does look good in a show ring though...


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Some coments:

Post #5. Good insight
Post #10 Vivian, don't encourage her to cheer at a TRIAL!  (Check out the audio.)
Post #16 The guy was out of line. Don't be afraid to say "Shut the h___l up." You will earn some respect. 

Finally, attend an AKC judges/handlers seminar. Very informative. You will learn what counts in evaluating a dog in a hunt test.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Re:cheerleading. Of course I am kidding, just teasing Shelby. Do what works for you.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I lurk on this forum sometimes because I'm always interested in the variety of things Goldens can do, but I know nothing about hunting or field training, so keep that in mind...

but isn't this supposed to be fun? I understand challenging fun or achieving a hard goal fun, but your dog couldn't care less what letters go with her name, right? As for people telling you you're not a strong enough leader...I hate that "helpful" stuff. It's not helpful, because it's not specific and it's usually coming from a smug attitude.

I went through something a little bit like this with my shy Aussie puppy. I kept taking her to obedience class after class, where she would be letter perfect...and then be so happy when it was over and it was just the two of us again. Our trainer finally said, " At some point, you have the dog you have." In the end, I had to let her be her.

Maybe just a break, like the smarter people have said...


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

gdgli said:


> Some coments:
> 
> Post #5. Good insight
> Post #10 Vivian, don't encourage her to cheer at a TRIAL!  (Check out the audio.)
> ...


going to a judges seminar will be helpful lets you see what the judges are really looking for also pretty sure at an AKC seminar they setup tests so you can also learn why judges setup certain things. and ask questions!!! it may not help for Molly right now or even later for her but it will help for the next pup becuase the standard that the dogs are run under now will most likely not change for a while if ever.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I will have to record and somehow post a video of blind work at home with Darcy. Sounds like a workout tape. And over and back and back and over and nice and sit and over and back. And when she is done I lift both hands up in the air as YAY and she runs back happy that she did it. Then we do another without the cheer. Then we do another with cheer and a couple adult commands. If I walk closer to her I need to make sure she understands that I am not upset with her. I tell her to sit and then good girl. 
It breaks my heart that she was so harshly treated for her first 4 years that any raised voice is intimidating her. 
She has so much drive in her and she runs so pretty. She loves to work and we just have to find a way that will work for her. And frankly, if we do not go for the SH or further it is just fine with me. If training becomes an obsession, a fear of being around the group and an intimidation then it is time to find something else we enjoy doing. We only have so much time together and I intend to make the best of it with each girl. For me this is a hobby that I can only do on weekends. And I am not going to allow my weekends ruined.

And if you get a jab in from someone, throw it right back. And if they cannot take it back you do not want to be around them anyway.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

gdgli said:


> Re:cheerleading. Of course I am kidding, just teasing Shelby. Do what works for you.


Suuuurrrreeee George.......


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Molly does love this sport. She also loved obedience. What she doesn't love is what nervousness does to me in a group setting. When Molly got her CD, we had stopped going to obedience classes for about 6 months. She wasn't working well in the group setting, so we just stopped and one day I decided we were going to enter. Her first CD leg she gave me the most enthusiasm I had ever seen in the ring. She gave me that perky heeling that she I had always seen in training but never in the ring. It didn't exactly carry over to legs 2 and 3, but they were nothing like the sluggish, laggy, 3-feet-behind-me heeling that she was giving me before at fun matches. Nobody ever suggested quitting obedience and everyone told me to work through it.

I have a plan. I am not quitting. I may quit putting Molly in the position where she feels stressed, but if she loves solo training, I am not sure why I should stop doing that, even if just for fun. I may gather some cheerleaders for her. (What's next, a mascot? ) We are going to do more fun and confidence building drills. I'm going to use live pigeons or chukars on blinds. It probably depends on the dog, but I don't think Molly really needs group training. I had trained her to senior level without a group. If we need a group to go further, then I guess this is where we will stop, but solo training to keep her "sharp" until we can run the spring SH tests should not be a problem at all. 

When she sees me setting up wingers, she whines and puts her toes through the kennel door and shakes it, claws at it. When I let her out, she immediately starts keying in on any gun station she can find. If that doesn't mean she loves doing this, then I don't know what does. On the other hand, when I let her out of the car at group training (and this requires encouragement), she eats grass, moseys around. No more group training for us.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Molly does love this sport. She also loved obedience. What she doesn't love is what nervousness does to me in a group setting. When Molly got her CD, we had stopped going to obedience classes for about 6 months. She wasn't working well in the group setting, so we just stopped and one day I decided we were going to enter. Her first CD leg she gave me the most enthusiasm I had ever seen in the ring. She gave me that perky heeling that she I had always seen in training but never in the ring. It didn't exactly carry over to legs 2 and 3, but they were nothing like the sluggish, laggy, 3-feet-behind-me heeling that she was giving me before at fun matches. Nobody ever suggested quitting obedience and everyone told me to work through it.
> 
> I have a plan. I am not quitting. I may quit putting Molly in the position where she feels stressed, but if she loves solo training, I am not sure why I should stop doing that, even if just for fun. I may gather some cheerleaders for her. (What's next, a mascot? ) We are going to do more fun and confidence building drills. I'm going to use live pigeons or chukars on blinds. It probably depends on the dog, but I don't think Molly really needs group training. I had trained her to senior level without a group. If we need a group to go further, then I guess this is where we will stop, but solo training to keep her "sharp" until we can run the spring SH tests should not be a problem at all.
> 
> When she sees me setting up wingers, she whines and puts her toes through the kennel door and shakes it, claws at it. When I let her out, she immediately starts keying in on any gun station she can find. If that doesn't mean she loves doing this, then I don't know what does. On the other hand, when I let her out of the car at group training (and this requires encouragement), she eats grass, moseys around. No more group training for us.


How was she during the JH tests? Did she key off your nervousness? 

This past summer I got to watch a group of show goldens train. It was interesting and fun to watch. The ladies were high 5-ing, clapping and cheering. The more they cheered the happier the dogs trotted around. That has worked both for the handlers and for the dogs. 

I don't know but all my dogs mosey around and eat the grass or check the smells when we go training. I am glad when they do that in the holding blind. All I asked is their full attention at the line. "Heel up" means business.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

This was Molly today, by ourselves. The land mark was just a short random one so I could get a video.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I think she looks great, Viv!! And you can tell she really loves it too! She is NOT slow, I've seen slow....


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Molly's attitude is great here!
The one constant I hear repeated over and over is, group setting.
I am curious if she is like this at family functions or anytime alot of people are around her.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

the water entry says it all right there. and from what i have seen from another dog like yours training alone is not going to hurt you at all. 

also you may have heard this before but train to a higher level than you plan on testing. so if you want to run senior go watch some master tests, or if you want to run master go watch some Qualified all age set ups. then go train to the higher level and also standard.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Molly looks good to me too! 
Nothing wrong with training alone. You have launchers like I do. You have a really nice location too! Wow! Wish I had water like that.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes she does look great in the videos but she only does that for me. The problem is she IS slow with others around.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Sounds like some sort of phobia of people if it happens in other places too. If this is the case, training in groups only escalates the problem.

I would step away as others here have suggested and really find the root cause. My first place I would go is to a mall or someplace with alot of people and commotion. If she acts goofy, u know where the issue lies.If all is well, try a dog park. If she acts goofy there, then the dogs are a issue for her also.
If all goes well though, your problem is the atmosphere she is in, whether the ring or field.

Theres a cassette tape out(maybe dvd too) that has all the noises associated with a hunt test. Someone here might know the name of it. That might be worth a try.
Also theres a theory that peppermint candy will mask your scent that your dog picks up on when your nervous.
Good Luck


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

That is an interesting theory. It definitely is not the people -- she LOVES people as I do take her to with me to farmers markets and outdoor malls fairly often. However, she does stress out at dog parks which is why we haven't gone in years. That is very interesting and something to think about. Although in obedience, she does seem to be fine with all the dogs around since they are all leashed and under control, until we get into the ring. She knows it the moment we enter the ring.

I'm going to look into that DVD.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Its a actual test taking place that was recorded.
Might be just up your alley training alone for awhile. 
Try Gun Dog Supply or Lion Country Supply, they should carry it.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Vhuynh2 said:


> That is an interesting theory. It definitely is not the people -- she LOVES people as I do take her to with me to farmers markets and outdoor malls fairly often. However, she does stress out at dog parks which is why we haven't gone in years. That is very interesting and something to think about. Although in obedience, she does seem to be fine with all the dogs around since they are all leashed and under control, until we get into the ring. She knows it the moment we enter the ring.
> 
> I'm going to look into that DVD.


here ya go!!!

GUNZ Up


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

wow see, this is why I love this forum, all these comments, you might be able to get to the root of her problem! Very interesting!!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Me too! I was hesitant to post about this, but I am glad I did. I really appreciate all the advice!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> That is an interesting theory. It definitely is not the people -- she LOVES people as I do take her to with me to farmers markets and outdoor malls fairly often. However, she does stress out at dog parks which is why we haven't gone in years. That is very interesting and something to think about. Although in obedience, she does seem to be fine with all the dogs around since they are all leashed and under control, until we get into the ring. She knows it the moment we enter the ring.
> 
> I'm going to look into that DVD.


I have been in meetings. Nice video, Molly looks like she enjoys what she is doing. 

After reading your above comment I was wondering. Since she enjoys the Farmers Market, the obedience people and dogs but is stressed at the park, once you take her in the obedience ring and in group training could it be that you are stressed and she responds to that? 

Bad things happen in the park so rightfully you are worried about it. Once you get in the obedience ring you get tense on how you guys are going to do, in group training you may worry about how she will work. 

Could it be that you both need a group in which you both feel comfortable? 

When I entered my very first hunt test with both girls I later realized what stress I put myself and the girls in; to jump into a double JH in the same day handling two dogs. If my friends and group were not there to remind me to breathe and stay calm I guarantee we would have not made it. 

On another hand I also had to resist entering in hunt tests until I felt we were all ready. When I was asked why don;t you enter this test or that test I had to reply: "I am not ready. When I feel ready we will enter; until then I am happy to help at the test and cheer for your dogs.".


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

Claudia M said:


> When I entered my very first hunt test with both girls I later realized what stress I put myself and the girls in; to jump into a double JH in the same day handling two dogs. If my friends and group were not there to remind me to breathe and stay calm I guarantee we would have not made it.
> 
> On another hand I also had to resist entering in hunt tests until I felt we were all ready. When I was asked why don;t you enter this test or that test I had to reply: "I am not ready. When I feel ready we will enter; until then I am happy to help at the test and cheer for your dogs.".


you can train to the highest standards and running setups way beyond what you are going to run and if you don't get nerves about how your dog is going to do then get out of the game! ask shelby how nervous she was when she drove to Ohio to run a derby? i can tell you she was a nervous wreck before she left. my drive to madison ga for our first Q was the longest hour drive of my life. i drank a 30oz yeti cup of coffee before i was 10mins down the road and went through a can of dip before we even ran the first series. every cast i gave during the trail my hands were shaking like a leaf! 

thing is if you don't step up and run your dog then they are ready then you are saying all the time you spend training was a waste.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

krazybronco2 said:


> you can train to the highest standards and running setups way beyond what you are going to run and if you don't get nerves about how your dog is going to do then get out of the game! ask shelby how nervous she was when she drove to Ohio to run a derby? i can tell you she was a nervous wreck before she left. my drive to madison ga for our first Q was the longest hour drive of my life. i drank a 30oz yeti cup of coffee before i was 10mins down the road and went through a can of dip before we even ran the first series. every cast i gave during the trail my hands were shaking like a leaf!
> 
> *thing is if you don't step up and run your dog then they are ready then you are saying all the time you spend training was a waste*.


That may be your opinion. It is not mine. I am not chasing ribbons, I am not chasing fame. I am simply enjoying time with my dogs - and frankly that is not a waste of time. I take my dogs hunting, I train with them and I enjoy every second spent with them. If that means a ribbon, fine but I am certainly not going to get obsessed about it and train my dogs every day including to their health detriment. I have a family, I have a full time job and I have a hobby. And I give each one attention in the order I wrote it. 

Frankly we have a guy in our group who trains with us, has two wonderful dogs, helps with every test and helps the newbies in handling. He has never been in a test and never put a ribbon on his dogs. The dogs go with him hunting every season. And it is not because they cannot do it; he just does not care. 

Now Ben, if you are going to attack every single post I make please let's do each other a favor and use the ignore button. It is simple and easy to use. Frankly I am tired of highschool cheerleader drama. I raised a teenage daughter and did not go thru this with her.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

krazybronco2 said:


> you can train to the highest standards and running setups way beyond what you are going to run and if you don't get nerves about how your dog is going to do then get out of the game! ask shelby how nervous she was when she drove to Ohio to run a derby? i can tell you she was a nervous wreck before she left. my drive to madison ga for our first Q was the longest hour drive of my life. i drank a 30oz yeti cup of coffee before i was 10mins down the road and went through a can of dip before we even ran the first series. every cast i gave during the trail my hands were shaking like a leaf!
> 
> thing is if you don't step up and run your dog then they are ready then you are saying all the time you spend training was a waste.


You are very competitive and you have the right the right attitude for the field trial game. Actually you have the right attitude for any competitive sport. You have already shown that you are quite capable and I know that you and Shelby train to the highest standards. However, the Hunt Test game may have a slightly different focus.

To put things in perspective I would like to relate some of my own experience in this. My own mentor started as a trialer many years ago. When hunt testing was first thought of, he was one of the first to get in on it. He had formed the North East Federation with some others who were interested in hunt tests. He was at the initial NAHRA meetings and so on. When the AKC wanted to get involved they used him to train clubs for hunt testing around the country. (I have film and a Gundog Magazine article on this.) 

My mentor has told me that at the initial meetings the founders made every effort to keep hunt tests about evaluating the dogs. Every effort was made to make Hunt Tests as different from Field Trials as possible. Think about it. No white jackets, camo instead. Duck calls. No counting whistles. Numerous decoys, perhaps a full rig. Handling guns. Arguing over keeping pros out of the game. And a scoring system that would be very different from Field Trials. The focus was to train a good dog and to have judges compare a hunting retriever to a standard. Now the competition has been taken out of the equation. It was about "Get the bird".

Although several Hunt Testers are very competitive many are not. Take a look at the conformation people who just want to get a JH on their dogs. Take a look at the hunter who has a couple of hours on the weekend to train his dog. Take a look at the person who just likes to see his dog work in the field. These are people who are not competitive and have no need to push their dogs to the limit and beyond. The expectations for these dogs will be different from that of the trialer. Training for their personal goal is not a waste of time. And of course you know that most on this forum are not trialing their dogs. (The game has evolved in a way that the old timers find very distasteful.) 

For the record: Which group do I belong to? Both. When I started there were only Field Trials. I truly enjoy watching them. I like the competition from club trials to AKC trials. I also enjoy Hunt Tests and their different focus.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

im not talking about be competitive or chasing ribbons I'm talking about walking to the line in any test or trial and you don't get nervous about what you are about to do then don't play the game. i almost enjoy the nerves they are almost like a high. but if i never ran another test or trial i would be ok with that because i would still be training to the highest level i can so when i go hunting i don't have a dog that people don't want to hunt with. 

i started out as someone wanting a dog to pick up my ducks when i went hunting and Belle loves hunting as much as i do. but i started running hunt tests to give me a reason to train my dog year round might not be everyday but we train 3-4 days a week. then i discovered field trails and decided to try them.

not trying to step on anyones toes just trying to push people and their dogs to get better. if it were not for Knorman i would still be running the hunt test but he pushed me and belle to become better than what we were already doing. and again i was told by Al Arthur 3 weeks ago (cause i asked) if you ever stop getting nervous when you step to the line then quit playing the games cause it takes all the fun out of the game.


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