# changes in wrists/front legs



## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

I have no idea. Bailey is 5 months old and her wrists are not like that. I would bring it up to the vet. I'm sure someone here has more answers then I do.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Can you provide a photo?


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

I'll try to take a photo and upload it.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

Here are a couple pictures. His tail was wagging in the first one so you can only really see the right paw. The second one is better and closer. He doesn't seem to be in any pain and isn't limping.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

well, I can say Max doesn't look like that at his feet. However, I can also say that for the longest time, Max grew body part by body part. First his tail was super long, when he grew into his tail, he looked like dumbo with his crazy big ears. Next was the long legged faze....so could it just be that your puppy is going through a faze where his ankles are super big compared to the rest of him? I really don't know but I guess it's a possibility. does he run/walk okay? Max never went through a stage that looked like that...he's 6 months now. It might not be a bad idea to take him for an early check up to your vet. On the chance it's a bone growth issue, it would be so much better to be seen right away. I hope someone has seen something like this and can give you great advice. I hope everythings okay!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I wouldn't panic. This looks like it is growth related. He's 5 months old, which is a totally "geeky" age. He is a little down on his pasterns. He is likely cutting molars, too. I would make sure that he is on a slow growth program. I'd put him on adult food, if he is not already, rather than puppy, and make sure that he is not getting any supplements with calcium. A little yogurt or probiotics can't hurt, and will help him utilize the nutrients in his food.


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I don't know if everyone here believes in putting a 5 month old puppy on grown up food so I wouldn't take that as gospel. Just saying. Max is still on puppy food and his growth seems to finally be slowing down a lot even on the puppy food.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

I have Bailey on adult food. She absolutely hates puppy food and I have no idea why. I've tried a few different brands, it was difficult to change the food so often due to sensitive stomache. She finally eats well with the adult food, the vet said it was fine at her last appointment.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I wouldn't panic. This looks like it is growth related. He's 5 months old, which is a totally "geeky" age. He is a little down on his pasterns. He is likely cutting molars, too. I would make sure that he is on a slow growth program. I'd put him on adult food, if he is not already, rather than puppy, and make sure that he is not getting any supplements with calcium. A little yogurt or probiotics can't hurt, and will help him utilize the nutrients in his food.


I couldnt agree with this great advice more, especially the part of pronto switching him to adult food. He does look down on his pasterns, which you can read about more commonly in German Shepherd Dogs and Great Danes. I would trust PG if she says not to panic, but I would be a bit worried if he were my pup. It's common and sound advice to switch to adult or ALS food for panoe and other bone issues.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I had a litter of GSDs years ago and had two puppies with sublexated pasterns. I switched them to adult food as well as swimming them daily. One puppy turned out fine the other I had to PTS (but he was extreme). So PG is right to keep the calcium down and slow down the growth by switching to adult food.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just as an aside, I have ALWAYS switched puppies to adult food between 4-6 months old, and can attest that most breeders do, as well. Here's one way to look at it:
Puppy food is an "accelerated growth food." In the wild, dogs nurse until they are around 4 months of age or so, and then they eat the same thing as adults in the pack. There is no "puppy formula", "adult formula", "weight loss formula", or "senior formula". Once they are no longer getting the only "puppy formula" (nursing), which is during the time that they actually do need "accelerated growth", they grow at a slower, normal rate on the same food as adults. It makes perfect sense to put our pets on "adult" food at the same time as they would be in the wild, per se.

Horse folks also understand the benefits of this. A horse kept in a stall and being feed "hot foods' - grain, corn, sweet feed" will grow quickly but is more likely to be less sound than a horse allowed good pasture and kept at a slower growth rate. That horse is far more likely to be sound much longer.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

momtoMax said:


> I don't know if everyone here believes in putting a 5 month old puppy on grown up food so I wouldn't take that as gospel. Just saying. Max is still on puppy food and his growth seems to finally be slowing down a lot even on the puppy food.


Ever have a dog with pano? The very first thing a vet will tell you is to get the puppy off puppy food and onto adult food. A puppy on puppy food past 4-6 months old is far more likely to develop bone growth problems (which may manifest much later) than a puppy switched to adult food at the same age. 
It may not be "gospel" but it is something that breeders, vets, and canine nutritionists have been doing for decades.


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## kira (Jan 13, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Ever have a dog with pano? The very first thing a vet will tell you is to get the puppy off puppy food and onto adult food. A puppy on puppy food past 4-6 months old is far more likely to develop bone growth problems (which may manifest much later) than a puppy switched to adult food at the same age.
> It may not be "gospel" but it is something that breeders, vets, and canine nutritionists have been doing for decades.


Murphy's contract specified switching to adult food at around 3 mos. We made the switch at about 3.5mos (3 months came up real fast and I still had to do my research!!). He is plenty big, perfectly normal (maybe mellower than the average pup but he was always that way) and according to my vet, perfectly healthy. Just my experience, I am not actually knowledgeable on the benefits of puppy vs. adult food past what I've read on here and so on...


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

As PG said, put him on an adult food, (lower protien), and make sure it has the correct calcium/phos. levels. Also, giving Vit. C will help. Ester C is good. I had Danes before my Goldens and this is pretty common. If you feel better going to the vet, then go. But...don't let them talk you into staying on a puppy food. :no:


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

I agree all of mine been on adult food at age 5 to 6 month of age!


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Ever have a dog with pano? The very first thing a vet will tell you is to get the puppy off puppy food and onto adult food. A puppy on puppy food past 4-6 months old is far more likely to develop bone growth problems (which may manifest much later) than a puppy switched to adult food at the same age.
> It may not be "gospel" but it is something that breeders, vets, and canine nutritionists have been doing for decades.


 
No, I haven't. So you are saying now that there is something wrong with the growth of this dog rather than, I wouldn't worry to much about it. And while dogs have grown up healthy stopping puppy food at 6 months, etc. countless other dogs have done the same eating puppy food up to a year like my Willow for example - she is plenty sound in her old age.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

momtoMax said:


> No, I haven't. So you are saying now that there is something wrong with the growth of this dog rather than, I wouldn't worry to much about it. And while dogs have grown up healthy stopping puppy food at 6 months, etc. countless other dogs have done the same eating puppy food up to a year like my Willow for example - she is plenty sound in her old age.


 
No...that is not at all what I said.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

There is good info on the great dane lady's site. She has articles on pano and knuckling over and diet. The advice above is spot on. Here is the knuckling over page. http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/puppy_feed_program_for_knuckling_over.htm Also, if you go to the articles tab on the left you can find info on pano too. She really plugs supplements, etc so sift thru that and you'll find lots of good info.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I 've been doing this a looooooooooong time. Never said my word is "gospel", but the information that I share here on the forum is not ROMA. There is a foundation of success - not just mine, but many, many others, and a veterinary background, as well. 
I told the OP not to panic. It is growth related, and assuring that the puppy's growth is slow moving forward can potentially prevent serious issues later. Since most bone growth problems do not show up until later, doing the best that you can, proactively now when the dog is young, makes perfect sense.
Take it for what it's worth.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice! Wyatt has grown very quickly since we got him at 11.5 weeks, although his growth has finally slowed in the last month. We're almost at the end of his puppy food bag, so it makes sense to switch to adult food now. We'd been giving him Purina's Pro Plan Puppy Chow for large breeds. Is there something you all would recommend for an adult food that would have the right blend of vitamins, etc? I was also wondering if he's getting enough exercise. We have him crated about 5-6 hours each day and at night about 8 hours. He hasn't been as hyper as we'd expected and the vet has commented about how calm he is, too. But he seems to run and walk fine, and loves to retrieve and dig! We'll definitely talk to the vet before the 6 mo. neuter appt. to see what he says. Thanks again!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's Mom said:


> Thanks for all the advice! Wyatt has grown very quickly since we got him at 11.5 weeks, although his growth has finally slowed in the last month. We're almost at the end of his puppy food bag, so it makes sense to switch to adult food now. We'd been giving him Purina's Pro Plan Puppy Chow for large breeds. Is there something you all would recommend for an adult food that would have the right blend of vitamins, etc? I was also wondering if he's getting enough exercise. We have him crated about 5-6 hours each day and at night about 8 hours. He hasn't been as hyper as we'd expected and the vet has commented about how calm he is, too. But he seems to run and walk fine, and loves to retrieve and dig! We'll definitely talk to the vet before the 6 mo. neuter appt. to see what he says. Thanks again!


 
I'd switch him to ProPlan Life Stages Chicken and Rice - NOT the shredded blends, but the old, original formula, now labeled Life Stages.

I'd also look at waiting until btween 18 - 24 months to neuter, if you can possibly wait. 12 mos at the minimum.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> I'd switch him to ProPlan Life Stages Chicken and Rice - NOT the shredded blends, but the old, original formula, now labeled Life Stages.
> 
> I'd also look at waiting until btween 18 - 24 months to neuter, if you can possibly wait. 12 mos at the minimum.


Thanks! Why would you wait to neuter? Does it also affect growth?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's Mom said:


> Thanks! Why would you wait to neuter? Does it also affect growth?


Absolutely! And also, his appearance. A dog neutered early (prior to having gone through puberty) will be tall, leggy, slab sided, and have an elongated appearance to his head. Structurally, it is believed that there is more liklihood of long bone problems and injuries.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Absolutely! And also, his appearance. A dog neutered early (prior to having gone through puberty) will be tall, leggy, slab sided, and have an elongated appearance to his head. Structurally, it is believed that there is more liklihood of long bone problems and injuries.


We'll try to put it off until he's 18-24 months, then. Good I'm getting this info before it's too late! Any suggestions for more GR puppy educational info?


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Wyatt's Mom said:


> Thanks! Why would you wait to neuter? Does it also affect growth?


I agree with the switching him to adult food, but I disagree on waiting on the neuter. The difference in appearance (if any) is disputable, since much of that depends on the breeding line and the problems you may encounter can be minimized by neutering early (marking, aggression from other dogs just to name two).


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'd refer the op to any number of threads/posts here on this form re: the appearance of dogs neutered early. I think that it would be safe to say that it is well known that eliminating the production of testosterone prior to reaching maturity "feminizes" males. There is also evidence that there are medical/structural (musculoskeletal) concerns in altering early. If a person can handle the responsibility of living with an intact male until 18-24 mos, it is well worth waiting on several levels.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

Took a look at some of the older posts. Thanks for your input!


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I agree with switching over to adult food. At around 8 months my vet recommended I switch Flora over to adult food (she was having major issues with loose stools), and her problems was pretty much fixed overnight. She still has orthopedic issues, but that's probably more due to bad genes than eating puppy food. :


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

If you are interested, here is some rebuttal to the anti early neuter comments. 

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/maddiesfund/spayNeuter/young.htm


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

fostermom said:


> If you are interested, here is some rebuttal to the anti early neuter comments.
> 
> http://www.vet.cornell.edu/maddiesfund/spayNeuter/young.htm


Thanks. I took a look at the article. Although I hadn't read Dr. Zink's article, it was helpful information. We'll talk it all over with our vet and make a decision. Either way, it seems there are a million pros and cons in both directions.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

Good news! Wyatt's legs seem to be back to normal. I'm guessing he was just a little weak after two days in the kennel with not much exercise. He seems fine now. We did switch him to Purina's ProPlan All Life Stages food though, just to be safe. He's been hacking from time to time the last couple days, so hopefully it's just a little cold and not a food allergy. Thanks again for all the feedback!


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

If Wyatt was recently kenneled, that hacking could be kennel cough. Even if he had an immunization for it, there are multiple strains and the immunization doesn't cover all of them. In any event, most vets let it run its course.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

Finn's Fan said:


> If Wyatt was recently kenneled, that hacking could be kennel cough. Even if he had an immunization for it, there are multiple strains and the immunization doesn't cover all of them. In any event, most vets let it run its course.


I mentioned it to a friend and she suggested that's what it is also. Just read a lot about it online. Sounds like he has the classic symptoms. He was boarded a week ago Thurs to Sat and started hacking this past Friday morning. Friday night was particularly bad (I woke up about 4 times to the sound of his hacking). (Ironically, he just got his second bordatella vaccine a week before we boarded him.) I've read that giving hydrogen peroxide and/or honey helps. Any thoughts on that? His coughing isn't too bad right now. Just after being outside or playing. We'll have to call his vet (since they boarded him), but I hope he won't need antibiotics. I'm sure they'll have fun will all the calls this week.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Hydrogen peroxide will make him puke!

Most often, as previously mentioned, it just runs its course. *Somtimes* vets will give a cough supressant. Antibiotics are sometimes used to ward off possible secondary infection.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Arrggg... Steph is correct - hydrogen peroxide is an emetic - it certainly would not be used to suppress a cough. In the case of kennel cough, Robitussin can be given to calm the cough, and vets often do prescribe an antibiotic to prevent secondary infections due the immune system being compromised.


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## Wyatt's Mom (Oct 10, 2009)

He seems to be over it today. No meds needed. Thank goodness!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I found Dr. Howe's rebuttal to Dr. Zinks paper quite interesting. Am I correct in thinking it was written this year?

As some people may know, I am keeping my female Selli intact unless and until there is a medical reason to spay her. My reasons for doing that, to reduce the risk of hemangiosarcoma, the number one killer of Goldens, was not rebutted by Dr. Howe's paper. 

In addition, her claim that hypothyroidism is uncommon in dogs, is becoming increasingly challanged by people like Dr. Dodds. And anyway, it seems rather common in Goldens.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I wouldn't panic. This looks like it is growth related. He's 5 months old, which is a totally "geeky" age. He is a little down on his pasterns. He is likely cutting molars, too. I would make sure that he is on a slow growth program. I'd put him on adult food, if he is not already, rather than puppy, and make sure that he is not getting any supplements with calcium. A little yogurt or probiotics can't hurt, and will help him utilize the nutrients in his food.


I've heard some interesting things about helping pups who are down on their pasterns- everything from feeding them in high dishes so they stand on tiptoe to giving Maalox. What causes a young puppy to be down on pasterns?

PG, is the reason to put him on adult food so that the tissue/ligament growth can keep up with bone growth?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I would love to see photos of Wyatt's front legs now, if it wouldnt be too much trouble. Do his pasterns look stronger after being on adult food? Inquiring minds!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> I found Dr. Howe's rebuttal to Dr. Zinks paper quite interesting. Am I correct in thinking it was written this year?
> 
> As some people may know, I am keeping my female Selli intact unless and until there is a medical reason to spay her. My reasons for doing that, to reduce the risk of hemangiosarcoma, the number one killer of Goldens, was not rebutted by Dr. Howe's paper.
> 
> In addition, her claim that hypothyroidism is uncommon in dogs, is becoming increasingly challanged by people like Dr. Dodds. And anyway, it seems rather common in Goldens.


Keeping a female intact is increasing the risk for pyometra, as well as mammary cancers. Not to mention risking accidental pregnancy.

Hypothyroidism is frightenly common in dogs, especially Goldens.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Yep, know about the pyometra and mammary cancer, and we are very careful of unwanted pregnancy. But, in my opinion, if one is well aware of all considerations, keeping a female intact is a understandable decision.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> Yep, know about the pyometra and mammary cancer, and we are very careful of unwanted pregnancy. But, in my opinion, if one is well aware of all considerations, keeping a female intact is a understandable decision.


We'll just "agree to disagree", then. The risks of leaving a female intact and not breeding her (obviously I mean intentionally and with great thought and care as to how the breeding is done, clearances, etc etc) far outweigh the benefits. There are few breeders I know that would agree that it is an "understandable decision".


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

What is the benefit to keeping a female who will never be bred intact beyond the minimal risks of the actual spay surgery itself?
I thought it was an absolute rule for the girls that they are medically safer if spayed unless they are bred.


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## Golden123 (Dec 6, 2009)

Pointgold said:


> Absolutely! And also, his appearance. A dog neutered early (prior to having gone through puberty) will be tall, leggy, slab sided, and have an elongated appearance to his head. Structurally, it is believed that there is more liklihood of long bone problems and injuries.


 

Does this apply to spaying females also?


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## anniekc (Jan 29, 2010)

*Wyatts feet*

The very best golden I've ever had the privilege to own, had wonky feet like this; And while I have to say, I've never seen feet like that since "Sams", they caused him absolutely no problem, and he lived a long, joyful life with them. But having said that, I would definitely ask the vet what they think! (be wary of letting him gain extra weight as Sam's nickname towards the end of his days was, "barrel on sticks")


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## goldens9 (Apr 7, 2020)

May need Dog Wrist Braces and or Dog Front Leg Braces to support the wrists so they grow straight. Some dogs have this issue. May need to feed real food not kibble for better development. There are pastured organic whole raw eggs that can be added to the kibble. NuPro supplement, probably the NuPro Silver for glucosamine, MSM, CM, to strengthen the joints as the joints may not have enough nutrition to grow properly.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

goldens9 said:


> May need Dog Wrist Braces and or Dog Front Leg Braces to support the wrists so they grow straight. Some dogs have this issue. May need to feed real food not kibble for better development. There are pastured organic whole raw eggs that can be added to the kibble. NuPro supplement, probably the NuPro Silver for glucosamine, MSM, CM, to strengthen the joints as the joints may not have enough nutrition to grow properly.


This thread is from 2010


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