# Oil supplements ?!



## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

I used to be ignorant when my vet used to give me _flaxseed oil_ supplements for their skin. Then she said it's ok to give _fish oil_ for coat. Then I read somewhere fish oil and _salmon oil_ have different benefits, fish oil is anti-inflammatory, while salmon oil is great for skin and coat...But also to avoid _cod liver oil_. Some say _olive oil_ is good once a while, and then there is _coconut oil_ that is an underrated beneficial oil. And then there's Vitamin E oil, a must when feeding cooked meat? This gets confusing after awhile. My guys have bad joints, rough fur and are aging, but i do not want to overload on the oils since they are pudgy... So which and what do I supplement, and for what purpose? and do they contraindicate each other? Anyone, please?

- flaxseed oil
- fish oil (omega 3)
- salmon oil
- coconut oil
- cod liver oil
- olive oil
- Vitamin E oil


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I've been looking into this, too. Have never tried the flaxseed--I gather it's not as easy for a mammal's body to get the benefit from it as it is with the fish or salmon oil. I give my spaniel Tess salmon oil for her heart. I just bought a huge bottle of fish oil capsules for myself and Tucker. The other ones you've listed--I haven't a clue. So I'll be interested to hear what others have to say. When I was researching, I did try to read many of the threads on GRF, so you might want to poke around on here if you haven't already.


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

ahh that's interesting, because I've come across threads that commented about flaxseed oil being unsuitable for them since they can't convert and use the omega something. It's also hard to gather all that information bits and pieces all over. So I thought if someone had an insight to this and could advise on the usages of each of the oils especially if it would be ok to give all of it or am I duplicating much. Thanks Outwest, we'll see if anyone else has any ideas.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I give Vitamin E and Fish oil. I was using coconut oil as well but I ran out and never bought anymore


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Raw egg yolks, fresh beef, lamb and pork fat are better additions than any liquid oil.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

I give Chance "Vital Choice Sockeye Salmon Oil". His coat is lustrous.
I order it online from Land of Pure Gold Foundation. I included the link below:

http://landofpuregold.com/store/salmon.htm


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

My understanding of the research is that its the amount of Omega-3 that a dog gets, not whether it came from salmon or mackerel or tuna. After the amount of o-3, what matters is the purity. I looked at consumer reports' listings of supplements, and ended up buying the Walgreens brand of fish oil. It was the purest product they tested and one of the more affordable. So I'm giving it to myself and to Tucker. When Tess's salmon oil runs out, I'm going to switch her to it as well. The thing I like about it, compared to the bottled oil with a pump is that the portions will be more accurate. The pump doesn't seem so accurate. Right now I'm just putting Tucker's two pills into a small blob of peanut butter on a spoon and letting him lick it off. When I switch Tess over to it, I'll probably start poking a hole in them and putting on their food. She only needs about one half. 

I'm going to ask my vet about the vitamin e. I don't think he needs any other additions. I've been told to give Tess another supplement for her heart (she has MVD), something that starts with an O, but it's very expensive and I need to research it more. 

I also give both dogs glucosamine-chondroitin in tablet form. I bought a breeders size box about a year ago and it's still going strong. 

Hope that helps. Maybe more people will chime in.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

OutWest said:


> My understanding of the research is that its the amount of Omega-3 that a dog gets, not whether it came from salmon or mackerel or tuna. After the amount of o-3, what matters is the purity. I looked at consumer reports' listings of supplements, and ended up buying the Walgreens brand of fish oil. It was the purest product they tested and one of the more affordable. So I'm giving it to myself and to Tucker. When Tess's salmon oil runs out, I'm going to switch her to it as well. The thing I like about it, compared to the bottled oil with a pump is that the portions will be more accurate. The pump doesn't seem so accurate. Right now I'm just putting Tucker's two pills into a small blob of peanut butter on a spoon and letting him lick it off. When I switch Tess over to it, I'll probably start poking a hole in them and putting on their food. She only needs about one half.
> 
> I'm going to ask my vet about the vitamin e. I don't think he needs any other additions. I've been told to give Tess another supplement for her heart (she has MVD), something that starts with an O, but it's very expensive and I need to research it more.
> 
> ...


You need vitamin E when feeding fish oil. Its needed to properly metabolize the fish oil. Without it the fish oil could deplete the dog of their Vitamin E supply causing a deficiancy


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> You need vitamin E when feeding fish oil. Its needed to properly metabolize the fish oil. Without it the fish oil could deplete the dog of their Vitamin E supply causing a deficiancy


But that's another point of contention...one article I read said that if a dog was getting it in their kibble, it wasn't necessary. I'll go check out more info then. Thanks!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

OutWest said:


> But that's another point of contention...one article I read said that if a dog was getting it in their kibble, it wasn't necessary. I'll go check out more info then. Thanks!


The amount in the kibble is usually there only as a form of preservative. Also, I believe that any supplements added into kibble at the plant is depleted some from heat, sitting in the bag, air etc


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

So since I cook for them, I'll need to add vit E? That's quite confusing.
I bought a gnc antioxidant which includes vit E but I'm putting that on hold because of the high vitamin A levels. Anyone has any idea the dosage for vit E if I'm giving fish oils? I've read on another thread that fish oil can be given in really high dosages for anti-inflammatory effects. Does that mean vit E dosage has to increase accordingly? I think I should stop giving both fish and salmon oil, just use 1.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

400IU Daily of Vitamin E daily is good. Im doing 100IU in the morning and 200IU in the evening (he gets 1 fish oil pill in the morning and 2 at night). Make sure you get the natural form of Vitamin E which is d-alpha and not the synthetic which is dl-alpha. 

Heres a good thread from IowaGold http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...supplements-etc-arthritis-joint-problems.html


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

ok i'll do vit E at 400IU. Looks like I'll take the flaxseed for myself and find a good salmon oil for my guys. and seems like i should take the fish oil off the shelf too. Have I done any damage with all the oils I've been giving so far? Alphie has a slightly enlarged heart, she's getting the fish oils and coQ10


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## newport (Aug 8, 2011)

puppatoos said:


> ahh that's interesting, because I've come across threads that commented about *flaxseed oil being unsuitable for* *them since they can't convert and use the omega something*. It's also hard to gather all that information bits and pieces all over. So I thought if someone had an insight to this and could advise on the usages of each of the oils especially if it would be ok to give all of it or am I duplicating much. Thanks Outwest, we'll see if anyone else has any ideas.


 The DHA and EPA fatty acids in* flax oil* are very hard for the human and pet body to convert into a usable form. Just can not break them down. Thus fish or Salmon oil for the DHA and EPA. I choose to do both Flax meal( in the form of THE MISSING LINK and then the Grizzly brand Salmon oil for Lola. I like the benefit of the flax lignans and the fiber of the flax- the DHA and EPA of the salmon oil.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

puppatoos said:


> ok i'll do vit E at 400IU. Looks like I'll take the flaxseed for myself and find a good salmon oil for my guys. and seems like i should take the fish oil off the shelf too. Have I done any damage with all the oils I've been giving so far? Alphie has a slightly enlarged heart, she's getting the fish oils and coQ10


I think you could just give them the fish oil, if it has enough Omega 3 in it. At least you could use it up, then switch to salmon if you still wanted to. It's the omega 3 that matters, and the purity of the product (no mercury, etc.). Can be any salmon or other fish. 

I doubt you've done any damage...

Where do you buy the coQ10? I'm supposed to be giving it to my spaniel, but it's pretty pricey. 

I guess I'll go get some vitamin E too.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

You can use the fish oil (thats what I use). Just make sure you get the dosing as accurate as you can. 

My fish oil capsules contain:
180 EPA 
120 DHA

The dose is 20mg/lb of body weight for EPA and 12mg/lb of body weight for EPA. So heres Lincolns accurate dose

20x60= 1200 so Lincoln needs 1200mg of EPA daily

12x60= 720 so Lincoln needs 720mg of DHA daily

Right now he is getting 3 fish oil pills a day, plus his joint supplement has the equivalent of one fish oil pill. So lets say hes getting 4

So right now he is getting 720mg of EPA and 480mg of DHA

Its a little low for him but I need to wean him up to the proper amount.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Fish oil and salmon oil have high levels of EPA/DHA which are the important omega 3s. Dallas Gold and I attended a seminar a couple years ago given by one of the vets in the practice she uses. She said that, across the board, this is the one supplement she would recommend. The rate is 300 mg EPA/DHA (combined) per 10 pounds of weight. It's the same formula Sarah (one of our forum vets) recommended in her sticky on supplements ( I believe it's in the health section). Many feel the omega 3s found in flaxseed is not able to be processed by most dogs.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Im kinda curious why vets say that just 180 EPA and 120 DHA is good? My previous vet just gave me Medium Breed AllerG3 caps that had the above in 1 pill and she told me to give 1 pill a day and that was enough to help with his skin and allergies. It never did anything so I stopped giving it. I recently bumped him up to 4 pills a day and I may notice a little difference but hes only been on the upped dose for 2 weeks or so.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

DHA is needed in some cases, but there is no known benefit of EPA. That is why egg yolks are superior. EPA binds other fatty acids and that is why the balance with omega 6 needs to be correct. 

Two Studies of Fish Oil for Canine Arthritis | The SkeptVet Blog
Latest Review Finds Fish Oils Don’t Help Dementia | The SkeptVet Blog

I am willing to read any real study on fish oil but I cannot find one that shows the miracle effects.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/32900-dangers-fish-oil-supplements/
http://chriskresser.com/when-it-comes-to-fish-oil-more-is-not-better


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

There are tons of studies that are published in JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) and Lancet, another medical journal. Fish oil: MedlinePlus Supplements


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

I could give them the fish oil or take them myself, but I'll probably get the wild alaskan salmon oil human supplements for them in the future (and probably finish off the flaxseed oil first or maybe not). I got the distilled fish oil without any mercury or lead, though some other brands have them but in acceptable amounts. I've read the sticky about fish oil and its anti-inflammatory effects, which means I need to have them on 3 or 4 a day, sounds like heaps to me! And because they are on some arthritis supplements px by the vet, I'm gonna keep it to 2 gels a day. I also got the Vit E gelcaps, it's the d-alpha. 

IF we give them too much fish oil, is it gonna be dangerous? Lincoln's dosage sounds about right (and maybe a little low) according to the sticky i've read, did he get any loose stools? The vets here don't exactly give a dosage, they just tell me it's OK to give each of the oils, which is what got me really confused, wondering if each one has a different benefit. 

Outwest:
Alphie's on coQ10, it IS expensive, and a huge bottle is actually 3/4 empty. 60 gelcaps for $40, way expensive but I know there are some doggy brands, but I'd rather not, I just don't think the quality would be really good, though of course it's tailored for canine consumption. There are many brands out there, I use vitahealth only because it is 50mg per gelcap, so I give 2 a day. Some are really high in concentration and I'm not too sure if that's a good thing.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> There are tons of studies that are published in JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) and Lancet, another medical journal. Fish oil: MedlinePlus Supplements


 
Nothing spectacular in any these, especially when it comes to the reasons people give it to dogs. 

High tryglyceride levels are not an issue for dogs, which with people seems like the only supportable application.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

puppatoos said:


> I could give them the fish oil or take them myself, but I'll probably get the wild alaskan salmon oil human supplements for them in the future (and probably finish off the flaxseed oil first or maybe not). I got the distilled fish oil without any mercury or lead, though some other brands have them but in acceptable amounts. I've read the sticky about fish oil and its anti-inflammatory effects, which means I need to have them on 3 or 4 a day, sounds like heaps to me! And because they are on some arthritis supplements px by the vet, I'm gonna keep it to 2 gels a day. I also got the Vit E gelcaps, it's the d-alpha.
> 
> IF we give them too much fish oil, is it gonna be dangerous? Lincoln's dosage sounds about right (and maybe a little low) according to the sticky i've read, did he get any loose stools? The vets here don't exactly give a dosage, they just tell me it's OK to give each of the oils, which is what got me really confused, wondering if each one has a different benefit.
> 
> ...


Lincoln should be getting 6 a day. He will be on the proper amount on Friday I ordered a liquid from the vet. 3 pumps of this stuff equals 3 pills so I will do 3 liquid pumps/3 pills and that will bring him up to where he needs to be. 

Lincoln has a very sensitive gut and he never got the runs from the fish oil. Not once...weird. I was expecting him to.

Fish oil only becomes dangerous when your giving a high amount and arent supplementing with Vitamin E. As long as your giving at least 400IU daily of Vitamin E your fine. I will be bumping Lincoln up to 400IU Friday as well. So he will get 200IU in the morning with his dose of fish oil and 200IU at night with his other dose.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> Lincoln should be getting 6 a day. He will be on the proper amount on Friday I ordered a liquid from the vet. 3 pumps of this stuff equals 3 pills so I will do 3 liquid pumps/3 pills and that will bring him up to where he needs to be.
> 
> Lincoln has a very sensitive gut and he never got the runs from the fish oil. Not once...weird. I was expecting him to.
> 
> Fish oil only becomes dangerous when your giving a high amount and arent supplementing with Vitamin E. As long as your giving at least 400IU daily of Vitamin E your fine. I will be bumping Lincoln up to 400IU Friday as well. So he will get 200IU in the morning with his dose of fish oil and 200IU at night with his other dose.


How did you come up with this dose?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

WasChampionFan said:


> How did you come up with this dose?


From what I have read online and on here from one of the forum vets, that the dose for EPA is 20mg per pound of body weight and the dose for DHA is 12mg per pound of body weight. So I dosed according to that since mine has allergies and needs and anti-inflammatory dose.


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

6 pills! WOw! I don't know if i should that. Mine are 64lb and 75lb. I give them one fish oil pill in the morning with 1tsp salmon oil and one fish oil pill at night along with 200IU vit E each meal. I don't really know the actual ratio of that; as much as I don't know the ratio of omega 3 and 6. I wish there was a dummy's guide method of doing it. As it is, the calcium phosphorus ratio is already making me all confused.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

puppatoos said:


> 6 pills! WOw! I don't know if i should that. Mine are 64lb and 75lb. I give them one fish oil pill in the morning with 1tsp salmon oil and one fish oil pill at night along with 200IU vit E each meal. I don't really know the actual ratio of that; as much as I don't know the ratio of omega 3 and 6. I wish there was a dummy's guide method of doing it. As it is, the calcium phosphorus ratio is already making me all confused.


If your dog doesnt have any health issues half the dose to just make the coat nice and glossy should be enough. Omega 6 has been known to promote inflammation where Omega 3 decreases it. Really, 6 pills isn't a lot though I know it seems like it is lol

It has nothing to do where the oil comes from but rather the EPA and DHA content.


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh ok... I didn't know about omega 6 promoting inflammation. I should be doing ok ya? My guys have bad joints and arthritis. Alphie's both knees are dry and crackling. Ashton's hips are stiff and that's quite surprising, I always pride in him having a perfect hip score in x-rays. But I guess my flooring in the house isn't helping. I don't have the pills with me right now (am at work), but they don't really differ much; pill to pill. 6 sounds like alot, but in the other sitcky thread, the number isn't really too much, I'm just wondering if I should follow that. I guess it's alot to do with me being almost double their weight and taking one 1 a day lol. 
I've contacted Sabine (nutritionist), and see what she recommends. Meanwhile I'll do what I've been doing. I'll finish off this supply of fish and salmon oil, then get just 1 source.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

puppatoos said:


> Oh ok... I didn't know about omega 6 promoting inflammation. I should be doing ok ya? My guys have bad joints and arthritis. Alphie's both knees are dry and crackling. Ashton's hips are stiff and that's quite surprising, I always pride in him having a perfect hip score in x-rays. But I guess my flooring in the house isn't helping. I don't have the pills with me right now (am at work), but they don't really differ much; pill to pill. 6 sounds like alot, but in the other sitcky thread, the number isn't really too much, I'm just wondering if I should follow that. I guess it's alot to do with me being almost double their weight and taking one 1 a day lol.
> I've contacted Sabine (nutritionist), and see what she recommends. Meanwhile I'll do what I've been doing. I'll finish off this supply of fish and salmon oil, then get just 1 source.


Heres an interesting read for humans Fish oil: MedlinePlus Supplements

Human dose is suppose to be higher then what the bottle recommends as well per condition. 

For joints, I suggest Vetoquinol Osteo 3 joint supplement for dogs, ive had great results with it. $75 woth lasts my 60lb guy 4 months on the loading dose and 8 months on the up keep dose. You can use over the counter human Glucosamin/Chondroiton/msm as well for this. If your going 2 fish oil pills a day and 1 table spoon of salmon oil I would add in one more fish oil pill a day for the larger guy and try that out for a while


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I used to supplement Ranger on fish oil and some canola oil, but now I just give him a tsp of coconut oil a day. It's solid so it's not messy and he loves it. Already seen an improvement in his skin, which tends to get really dry and itchy this time of year.


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

The amount of Omega 6 fatty acids in modern dog foods do not promote inflammation. Levels maybe 20 years did and only some sources are linked to it. 

There is not one shred of evidence EPA has any value in mammals outside of some narrow human applications. DHA is needed but it is highly unlikely fish was ever a source.

Also, Omega 6 acids have more to do with coat quality than Omega 3's but both are needed in nature's balance.

While I use a food with a little over 1% Omega 3, experts still are not sure it is a needed nutrient but around 1% is considered a safe amount assuming the ratio to 6 is ok.


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## artbuc (Apr 12, 2009)

WasChampionFan said:


> The amount of Omega 6 fatty acids in modern dog foods do not promote inflammation. Levels maybe 20 years did and only some sources are linked to it.
> 
> There is not one shred of evidence EPA has any value in mammals outside of some narrow human applications. DHA is needed but it is highly unlikely fish was ever a source.
> 
> ...


Considering polyunsaturated fatty acids are very unstable, I wonder how much, if any, of the label amount of O3 is available?


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## WasChampionFan (Mar 31, 2012)

artbuc said:


> Considering polyunsaturated fatty acids are very unstable, I wonder how much, if any, of the label amount of O3 is available?


That is a good question. Assuming the food is kept in a dry, room temperature location or cooler and in the dark and used within a few months of opening the bag, you shouldn't have any issues with potency. The sealed bags used now, the poly bags, do a very good job of keeping foods fresh.


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

In dry food, it's pre-added, but whether useful to the body is another question, hence the supplement products' popularity and the wide belief that it helps in joint problems. I'm pretty much with the crowd that it does help, though I'm giving arthritis supplements too. I give my guys alot of fish; white fish, salmon, canned tuna, canned sardines, sometimes cod or tuna. Those should have some O3 in them, though not to anti-inflammatory levels, BUT sodium could be high too. I don't wanna be worrying about the O3 and O6 balance and then causing other issues on the side ie. kidney or heart issues.


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

I just received my personalized diet plan for Alphie (still waiting for Ashton's). She says to add only 2 tsp salmon oil, and 400 IU of vit E. Sounds little for the salmon oil to have any anti inflammatory effect? She also mentioned to add grapeseed oil, and says it's safe. Anyone had any experience with giving grapeseed oil? What is it for anyway?


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Most vets who want a therapeutic dose of omega 3's recommend 300 mg combined EPA/DHA per 10 lbs of body weight. The Carlson's liquid you ordered has 1300 mg per tsp ( 800 mg EPA, 500 mg DHA). Two teaspoons would be an adequate dose for a dog weighing a little more than 80 lbs.


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## puppatoos (Jul 23, 2012)

Alphie's about 60lb, Ashton's 75lb. I didn't specify the brand of fish oil I'll be using for them but nutritionist assumed it would be Grizzly salmon oil. Think I'll need to tweak the dosage to fit.


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