# Thought provoking "Its Me Or The Dog" episode



## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Hey guys,

I have been watching a few of Its Me Or the Dog episodes (British dog trainer Victoria Stilwell (VS)). I came across this episode during my rounds were a black english cockerspaniel was put down due to aggression (bites to children, with last incident being a mauling).

Here is the episode (occurred back in 2006) if anyone has the strength to watch it. Please note, it is a bit graphic and may be distressing to some people. Watch Videos Online | It's me or the dog Season 3 Eps 2 | Veoh.com

VS spoke to the issue and stated the dog should be put down too. Here is a link to her comments, a poster has quoted VS comment, about 4 posts down. Positively | Victoria Stilwell | Forum • View topic - disgusted!!!

Just wondering what everyone feels is on the topic? I know there is a breadth of knowledge here, including trainers, behaviouralists, and opinionated dog lovers! It made me think... That is for sure!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

IMO, this family made the most responsible choice possible. No dog's life is worth more than the safety of children.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I didn't watch the video because I can't where I am right now. But I do agree with Victorias comment below:

*Because the format of the show is only 30 minutes long, it’s sometimes difficult to include all of the details and information involved in any given situation. Indeed, there is often quite a bit more training advice I wish we could include in each episode which I think is interesting and would be helpful, but due to time constraints, not everything can make it into the final version. *

Just as we all know is true in Cesars episodes.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

I have had an aggressive dog put to sleep. It was either that or try to rehome her at 10 years old and hope for the best or take her to the shelter where she would have been terrified and then put to sleep. She was my responsibility and it wasn't an easy decision to come to, matter of fact, I cried every night for 3 months while coming to the decision. As hard as it was, I don't regret it. She was a danger to other animals and her aggression towards humans was escalating. I had worked with a trainer for several years and she was on amatryptaline for 8 years, just to keep her moderately sane.

We've seen goldens here on this site that have had to be put down due to serious aggression. It can happen in any breed, especially if you are dealing with back yard bred dogs who are not being bred for proper temperament.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

The owners made the correct choice in having the dog PTS. This past Spring a poster had a similar situation happen with a adolescent Golden. That family worked with the dog and consulted with a veterinary collage to explore what could be done. The decision was made to put the dog to sleep. It is an agonizing situation I would not wish on anyone, but regardless of training/rehabilitating/behavior work, some dogs are too dangerous to have in a family setting.


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Just awful isn't it... 

I think after watching it, I wondered if something else could be done? Have no idea what that would be... 


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I didn't watch the video because I can't where I am right now. But I do agree with Victorias comment below:
> 
> *Because the format of the show is only 30 minutes long, it’s sometimes difficult to include all of the details and information involved in any given situation. Indeed, there is often quite a bit more training advice I wish we could include in each episode which I think is interesting and would be helpful, but due to time constraints, not everything can make it into the final version. *
> 
> Just as we all know is true in Cesars episodes.


Hahaha... This made me laugh... Your last sentence in particular! 

VS copped a lot of flack for this episode... Touchy topic as it naturally is!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I didn't watch the video because I can't where I am right now. But I do agree with Victorias comment below:
> 
> *Because the format of the show is only 30 minutes long, it’s sometimes difficult to include all of the details and information involved in any given situation. Indeed, there is often quite a bit more training advice I wish we could include in each episode which I think is interesting and would be helpful, but due to time constraints, not everything can make it into the final version. *
> 
> Just as we all know is true in Cesars episodes.





o0Shaz0o said:


> Just awful isn't it...
> 
> I think after watching it, I wondered if something else could be done? Have no idea what that would be...
> 
> ...





o0Shaz0o said:


> Hahaha... This made me laugh... Your last sentence in particular!
> 
> VS copped a lot of flack for this episode... Touchy topic as it naturally is!
> 
> ...


I wondered if it was going to come back to this.


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Selli-Belle said:


> I wondered if it was going to come back to this.


LOL! I will not say a single word more about CM... for a while at least! Just had a chuckle... 


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Oh Man! I can't seem to get this video working here. I will have to wait until tonight to watch it.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Selli-Belle said:


> I wondered if it was going to come back to this.


Glad I could give my perspective on the subject


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I haven't watched the video and I'm not sure I want to  but I will say that I believe it is appropriate for dogs and cats to be PTS sometimes. Because we'd all like to save all animals, it's very hard for an animal lover to do that. If VS thought it was appropriate in this case, then I'm guessing it really was. I personally had to PTS a cat who loved me and me only and me would scratch and bite any other living thing. She was physically healthy although older but not good in the head. I needed to move to take a new job and I had to get a roommate to afford an apartment. After discussing her with the vet, he made me realize there was no one who would take her and it was possible she'd be abused if someone did and she bit them (which she most certainly would have done). So I held her in my lap while they put her down. It was dreadful because she refused to die and they had to inject her three times. I felt like I was clubbing her to death. I've only spoken about this once or twice, and only speak about it now because I try hard not to judge those who have to PTS their pets.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As Nolefan said, when children are at risk for the dog biting, it is a no brainer. IMO, when a dog bites without provocation, how can you ever trust it? And how could you try to rehome it when it has bitten three people.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

*My analysis*

I just watched the episode. First of all it's funny how they have that plastic sign and the dogs knocked it down. :roflmao:At first it looked like a case of dogs that had not been trained due to lack of authoratative leadership. I am glad they got Bramble under control. Sadly Benji was not so lucky. Our computer is in the bedroom and when my husband overheard what they said Benji did to Rachel, he immediately said "Put that dog down!" My husband has no tolerance for dogs that bite children and believes that if a dog bites a child, it should be put down, no questions asked. I believe in giving dogs second chances over relatively less serious bites with proper training. There are many cases in which agressive dogs have been successfully rehabbed. However, since Benji later mauled Rachel, there was no other choice but to put Benji down. It was the right thing to do. It is very sad indeed.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

OutWest said:


> I haven't watched the video and I'm not sure I want to  but I will say that I believe it is appropriate for dogs and cats to be PTS sometimes. Because we'd all like to save all animals, it's very hard for an animal lover to do that. If VS thought it was appropriate in this case, then I'm guessing it really was. I personally had to PTS a cat who loved me and me only and me would scratch and bite any other living thing. She was physically healthy although older but not good in the head. I needed to move to take a new job and I had to get a roommate to afford an apartment. After discussing her with the vet, he made me realize there was no one who would take her and it was possible she'd be abused if someone did and she bit them (which she most certainly would have done). So I held her in my lap while they put her down. It was dreadful because she refused to die and they had to inject her three times. I felt like I was clubbing her to death. I've only spoken about this once or twice, and only speak about it now because I try hard not to judge those who have to PTS their pets.


 I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Having to inject her 3 times!? It makes you wonder if she was meant to live.:--sad:


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> As Nolefan said, when children are at risk for the dog biting, it is a no brainer. IMO, when a dog bites without provocation, how can you ever trust it? And how could you try to rehome it when it has bitten three people.


VS said practically the same thing... You would never be able to trust the dog.


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

MercyMom said:


> There are many cases in which agressive dogs have been successfully rehabbed.


This is what I keep thinking...




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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I have been on the other side of the fence where I had a fear aggressive dog. He did bite once, and probably would have bit again. He was very afraid of children and would go after them. Other than puppies and the other dog that lived with us, he would also go after other dogs.

I called many trainers, and many would not even look at him, and told me to put him down before I had children of my own.

Finally, I found two behaviorists that tested him - that is how I found out he was fear aggressive. He was so afraid, that he would attack first before he thought he would be attacked.

The behaviorist that I ended up chosing, was recommended by Tufts Vet School and my own vet. He showed me Zeus' trigger points and showed my what I was doing wrong. We did bring in a shock collar, and he taught me to use it, we only had to use it for a few months. In the first half hour of our session, he had Zeus tied to a leash about ten feet away from his GSD. ( This GSD he saved from being euthanized too for the same reasons. After he trained him, the original owner wanted him back. ) 

Within six weeks, he had me walking Zeus down the street, off leash, amongst children. He was a different dog. My vet was shocked at how well behaved he was from that point on.

I year later, I started to have my own kids, and we never had any issues. As a matter of fact, when my oldest would crawl away from me, Zeus would pick her up from the back of her clothes, and bring he back.

My behaviorist had told me that only 1 out of every 1000 aggressive dogs we not fixable. A lot of it is in finding the right trainer or behaviorist, because unfortunately there are a lot of them out there that don't have the schooling behind them to fox this type of problem.


Edit: I can't see the video, so I have no idea what happened.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

cubbysan said:


> I have been on the other side of the fence where I had a fear aggressive dog. He did bite once, and probably would have bit again. He was very afraid of children and would go after them. Other than puppies and the other dog that lived with us, he would also go after other dogs.
> 
> I called many trainers, and many would not even look at him, and told me to put him down before I had children of my own.
> 
> ...


Wow that is an amazing story! Thanks for sharing!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

No behaviorist can guarantee that an aggressive dog (one who has bitten before) will not bite again, anyone who does is lying to you. The family in this situation could not trust the dog not to attack/maul the children and they could not ethically rehome the dog. Caesar may have a place where he can house dogs who cannot safely live in a home setting, but for the vast majority of dogs that is not a possibility. 

Whether we like it or not, humans created dogs to live within our society and currently we have adapted dogs to live within our families (especially in the case of Cocker Spaniels). Would a Cocker Spaniel be happy not having much access to humans? Is it better for that dog to live a life without human contact than be pts if the dog has a mental wiring problem? Should we expect a family to live with a dog they can't trust?


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"A lot of it is in finding the right trainer or behaviorist, because unfortunately there are a lot of them out there that don't have the schooling behind them to fox this type of problem."

I want to add to this. Yes you have to have the right trainer or behaviorist. There is more to it though. You have to have an owner that can follow the directions of the trainer or behaviorist completely. There are dogs that can have a wonderful life but there are dogs that just cannot be rehabilitated. 

No matter how much we love a dog sometimes we have to think of the dangerous possibilities that can happen if the training does not work. Each situation, family, enviroment, dog is unique and a lot of hard work goes into this. 

Cubbysan did the best she could. She got the help of a qualified behaviorist recommended by Tufts. She had the support and knowledgable professionals behind her in her process. Thank you for sharing that. It is so nice to hear successful stories.


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## Mayve (Aug 21, 2012)

Actually I noticed that the male owner, can't remember his name, did not follow through on keeping the dog on the mat during dinner and in fact let him come back to the table and pet him, thus the need to put him in another room...who knows what other things he was lax on and what could have been avoided. I'm not trying to judge here, I don't know the whole story, you can't get all the back info in 30min...JMO

And I do agree that a dog that bites without provocation etc is indeed a danger and should not ever be around children. PTS....depends on the situation.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I also believe that my husband and I were part of the issue of my dog Zeus. It was our first puppy as adults and probably a breed, German Shepherd, that we had no business owning at that point. We treated him more like a baby, than a dog.

We did what we thought was right: 1) bought from a breeder ( but now I know what a responsible breeder is ) 2) we did take him to classes and socialized him until he was about 7 months old ( then we had a really bad winter in the early 90's ) where we barely left the house, so no socialization between 7 months to about a year old. 3) We would have him leashed in the backyard by himself in the afternoons if we came home from work early, little did we know, that the children walking home from school were taunting him and throwing rocks at him, until I caught them and then a neighbor told us she witnessed the same thing.

Also, it cost us quite a lot of money for this behaviorist, I can't imagine what it would cost in today's dollars.


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## o0Shaz0o (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't know if the family, particularly the husband really followed the advice of VS (agree with Mayve). 

Good point about owners requiring to follow trainer advice to a T! Not sure fro, this episode whether this happened... 


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Resource guarding is different than an unprovoked attack on a child. For one thing there is a known trigger. When a dog "mauls" (multiple bites on various parts of the body with the intent to offensively incapacitate/kill the victim) with unknown triggers and demonstrates an escalation in attacks, there is little that can be done.


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