# Remote collar training - thoughts?



## Shep (Dec 9, 2008)

We have a 16-mo.old golden retriever we got about 2 months ago. We've had him in training classes for 6 weeks and he is doing really great, but still not really following the important commands like "leave it" when he is not in training mode. And we're still working on his constant jumping on people with an "off" command. We know it will take time. 

We are considering taking him to a class run by Sit Means Sit (sitmeanssit.com) -- look at the video - its amazing! The guy's dog does not take his eyes off him, his tail is wagging the entire time, and yet dogs are swarming all around. He uses a combination of remote collar stimluation training and treats (I think). 

Has anyone had any experience with this? The dogs in all the videos I watched seemed very content and focused (including people working their dog in training for the first time with the collar). 

Just curious... thanks!


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Yeah but then do you need the "remote control collar" on the dog all the time? Is it an e-collar? The dog is wearing one in the dog park.


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

I personaly don't like it. 
My neighbour has it on her fox terrier and I think it terrible. Today dog jumped on me happy to see me and suddenly started to whine and I thought I steped on him or sth and then she told me that she was punishing him for jumping on me. I have 3 dogs and I never used sth like that and they are very obedient. 
All of my dogs learned with 3 months to leave the stuff, that was very important to me as I live in neighbourhood where they poison dogs.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

I have searched a lot of threads on this topic and the views are very diverse. Some people hate the idea and some people are fine with it. I don't agree with some trainers method of shocking the dog so the dog whines or is pain. A lot of trainers will only use a very low level where you couldn't tell the dog noticed it unless you were trained. 
You really need an experienced trainer as you could do more harm than good. I personally have never used it. I don't agree with people who are against it but will ear pinch, use chokers or prongs. Put the collar on and give yourself a low level stimulation, then put on a choker or prong and let a grown man yank and give you a collar correction. Tell me then what hurts more. I think training methods are very personal and you are the only one who knows what your dog needs. If your dog responds well to positive reinforcement, great. If he is stubborn maybe another method is in order. BY NO MEANS AM I ADVOCATING ANY TRAINING METHOD. I believe that is up to you and your trainer, just do your research. Just putting in my two cents.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I used to think it was horrible... now I still do if it's for obedience performance in the ring or something. But, if it helps with life saving things like a recall off leash, then I am okay with it with PROPER use.


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## mygarnetboy (Nov 3, 2008)

I used to be dead set against them...then I got Sherman. His trainer recommended one six weeks ago and I put her off. Two weeks ago I called her in tears and she suggested it again. He did a week of board and train last week w/her (crazy week for me--my dad had his knee replaced, DH was out of town--it was insanity) and he's like a different dog now. His collar goes from 20-100--he's on 30. I did it to myself and it's not painful, but it is unpleasant. I've only had to use it a few times since he came home on Saturday, just a look and a stern command will usually do the trick now. It's made ALL the difference for us...

My trainer worked with him on it for a week and then we had a training session together Friday afternoon. 

Talk to your trainer. Sherman had three weeks of training at 13 weeks (drop off training from 7-5), then weekly visits for a month, then another week last week (he's 7 1/2 mths). Our trainer knows him very well, so when she suggested it again, I finally agree to try it...


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

It all depends on the dog. My friend has a Great Dane that if you used the e-collar on the thing it would probably ruin the dog. All you have to do is look at the dog and it will get sad. He cannot train that dog with any negativity at all. Not even raise your voice or the dog will go in the corner. On the other hand his other dog is a monster who needs a very firm training regime or else all hell would break loose especially since the dog is pushing 140lbs.


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## goldensmum (Oct 23, 2007)

We are having to resort using one with Quinn - he was very good as a pup on his recall in the field - and he still is as long as he doesn't spot another dog, and then he is off. We have tried everything we can think of, and i know one day he is going to end up getting himself into big trouble.

We are going to use the spray command collar - i would never use a shock collar, and at the moment he is wearing it around the house until he gets used to the weight of it. Hopefully it will work.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

goldensmum said:


> We are having to resort using one with Quinn - he was very good as a pup on his recall in the field - and he still is as long as he doesn't spot another dog, and then he is off. We have tried everything we can think of, and i know one day he is going to end up getting himself into big trouble.
> 
> We are going to use the spray command collar - i would never use a shock collar, and at the moment he is wearing it around the house until he gets used to the weight of it. Hopefully it will work.


Do they have spray command collars? I have only seen ones for barking.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I won't at this time comment on the collar issue, but would like to bring up another point. You are tying to undo what he has learned in the 14 most important months of his life. MUCH more difficult than working with a 16 week old pup. But it is possible to "retrain" this boy. The key as with any training is consistency. No means no all the time. "Leave it" means "leave it" all the time - guess theis is where "sit means sit" got there name :doh:.
The key is you must insist on it. Keep the boy under constant supervision when loose and keep a collar and a leash or tab (short leash) on him during these times so you can get a hold of him if you need to (this is the idea behind the e-collar - you can correct even if you can not reach him). Don't over react, just firm normal tone commands/corrections. I think you would be surprised how fast he will come around. 
Good luck and don't forget there is no short cut or magic wand when it comes to training a dog.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

All I will say is if you decide this is the "last resort" and you have tried everything and you go ahead and purchase one PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get someone that is knowlegable, experienced and fit to not only use one but teach you and the other people in your house how to PROPERLY use it. Personally, I don't use them but know those who do.


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## FishinBuddy (Nov 20, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I won't at this time comment on the collar issue, but would like to bring up another point. You are tying to undo what he has learned in the 14 most important months of his life. MUCH more difficult than working with a 16 week old pup. But it is possible to "retrain" this boy. The key as with any training is consistency. No means no all the time. "Leave it" means "leave it" all the time - guess theis is where "sit means sit" got there name :doh:.
> The key is you must insist on it. Keep the boy under constant supervision when loose and keep a collar and a leash or tab (short leash) on him during these times so you can get a hold of him if you need to (this is the idea behind the e-collar - you can correct even if you can not reach him). Don't over react, just firm normal tone commands/corrections. I think you would be surprised how fast he will come around.
> Good luck and don't forget there is no short cut or magic wand when it comes to training a dog.


 
Great advice......


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

AmbikaGR said:


> Don't over react, just firm normal tone commands/corrections. I think you would be surprised how fast he will come around.
> *Good luck and don't forget there is no short cut or magic wand when it comes to training a dog.*


I agree with this 110%


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## goldensmum (Oct 23, 2007)

nixietink said:


> Do they have spray command collars? I have only seen ones for barking.


Yes they do - the one we have has no scent, and is remote controlled.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

At 16 months, and with only 6 weeks of training, I wouldn't expect the dog to be really "good" at things when "outside of training mode".

Time and patience. IMO, there's really no need for the "do it or else" mentality of remote collar training. Just time, patience, practice and management so that the dog isn't practicing the behaviors you don't want when you're not around.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Shep said:


> Has anyone had any experience with this? The dogs in all the videos I watched seemed very content and focused (including people working their dog in training for the first time with the collar).
> 
> Just curious... thanks!


I'm a big fan of the appropriate and judicious use of any item of dog training equipment - aversives included. But to use them appropriately we must keep in mind that they don't do the training. We do.

Aversives allow us to support and strengthen the dog's respect level for commands. Commands are not requests.

EvanG


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

The e-collar debates tend to get protracted and sometimes intense, so I'll just drop in my $0.02 and run away:

While many people have experienced positive results from the careful application of vibration and or shock from an e-collar in training, many others have created nervous, dangerous dogs. It is not a stimulus that makes natural sense to a dog. Yes, they do understand pain on the neck, but they don't easily understand it when it comes from a distance, so it can create agitation and stress that can manifest dangerously if the dog is unclear at all why the shocks are happening. I believe it is possible to train a dog to understand where the vibration or shock is coming from and why it's happening, but it's easy for a dog to miss this connection and simply feel anxious and threatened.

Case in point: the one real dog bite I've ever received in my life is because I underestimated how badly a family had screwed up their Golden with an e-collar. He bit me defensively and drew blood because he had learned that fear and pain come randomly on his neck, and he did not understand the basic behavior that was being expected of him. The e-collar wasn't on him, and all I did was grab his plain buckle collar too suddenly, and he turned and bit.

If you do use one, make sure you do it under the supervision of an experienced trainer who emphasizes using the lowest possible settings as infrequently as possible. A shock collar is _not_ a substitute for clear communication and leadership. You can not shock a dog until he figures out he's doing something bad (i.e., mashing the button while he jumps on company so he knows he's naughty).


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

This dog is still a puppy! He's an adolescent , be patient, work with him in training (love , cuddle and play the rest of the time) and he will come around.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> It is not a stimulus that makes natural sense to a dog. Yes, they do understand pain on the neck, but they don't easily understand it when it comes from a distance, so it can create agitation and stress that can manifest dangerously if the dog is unclear at all why the shocks are happening. I believe it is possible to train a dog to understand where the vibration or shock is coming from and why it's happening, but it's easy for a dog to miss this connection and simply feel anxious and threatened.


If any of this is occurring in a dog in reaction to e-collar use, it is happening in the absence of e-collar conditioning. There is a well defined process of conditioning that clearly connects stimulus with known commands, and through its application there are simplified behavioral explanations provided for the dog. 

Dogs learn fully how to turn off pressure through compliance, and to effectively deal with pressure - making them both more obedient, and more stable in the presence of both pressure and distraction.

We use pressure in dog training from numerous sources. It's used to change behavior. The amount of pressure should be dictated by the dog. If little is needed, little is used. If none is needed, none is used.

EvanG


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

EvanG said:


> I'm a big fan of the appropriate and judicious use of any item of dog training equipment - aversives included. But to use them appropriately we must keep in mind that they don't do the training. We do.
> 
> Aversives allow us to support and strengthen the dog's respect level for commands. Commands are not requests.
> 
> EvanG


I think we're probably mostly in agreement on the use of aversives, but I would like to clarify that the best way to get a dog to think of commands as commands, not as requests, is to earn his respect positively. A dog who obeys only because of the fear of pain or punishment won't be a healthy, happy dog. You can have truly excellent obedience with the truly minimal use of aversive stimuli. Getting a dog to obey is more about establishing yourself as a trusted leader rather than as a vengeful god.

I do, though, use the vengeful god thing on puppies who willfully disobey recall commands. I've flying tackled both my dogs at least once or twice in their lives (no pain, just surprise), and their recall is 100%. 99.9% of the time, they come because we've established it as a fun game. The other .1% they don't want to come (they want to chase deer, for example), but I pull out my "mad dad" voice and they believe I can drop from the heavens at will and enforce the command, so they come back even though they _really_ don't want to.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> The e-collar debates tend to get protracted and sometimes intense, so I'll just drop in my $0.02 and run away:
> 
> While many people have experienced positive results from the careful application of vibration and or shock from an e-collar in training, many others have created nervous, dangerous dogs. It is not a stimulus that makes natural sense to a dog. Yes, they do understand pain on the neck, but they don't easily understand it when it comes from a distance, so it can create agitation and stress that can manifest dangerously if the dog is unclear at all why the shocks are happening. I believe it is possible to train a dog to understand where the vibration or shock is coming from and why it's happening, but it's easy for a dog to miss this connection and simply feel anxious and threatened.
> 
> ...


 
I like your style AND your content!!!!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think we're probably mostly in agreement on the use of aversives, but I would like to clarify that the best way to get a dog to think of commands as commands, not as requests, is to earn his respect positively. *A dog who obeys only because of the fear of pain or punishment* won't be a healthy, happy dog. You can have truly excellent obedience with the truly minimal use of aversive stimuli.


I suspect, then, that we are largely in agreement because I do not, and _would_ not advocate using aversives as a method (see the "*What are Your Training Methods *" thread). Aversives do not do the training, or at least they _should_ not. A sound training program is a balanced one. 





Per that thread: Training is a three-phase process:
*Teach*; the first and most important, is the guiding of behavior and then rewarding it
*Force*; often misunderstood, it is the application of pressure to formalize teaching and convert it into training that is both stable and reliable
*Reinforce*; also misunderstood by many. It is essentially the maintenance of previous training via repetition, praise & correction when needed
One of the most consistent challenges I face in each seminar I give is getting people to remember to consistently praise their dogs for compliance - especially men! Most of us are pretty keen on telling our dogs when they've done wrong. But then the dog does the right thing, and we stand there like silent statues.


tippykayak said:


> Getting a dog to obey is more about establishing yourself as a trusted leader rather than as a vengeful god.


As I said, it's a matter of balance. The analogy I use most often is that the trainer is not a task master, but rather more like a coach. The dog, being the athlete, must respect the role of the coach.

But a coach who does not respect the athlete will usually find him or herself in a constant battle of wills over how things get done. If we only coerce our dogs behavior through threat and punishment, we have a dysfunctional team.

If the athlete does not respect the coach, we also have a dysfunctional team. Essentially, the inmate will cheerfully run the assylum!

EvanG


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