# Had a bite tonight :(



## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

Logan resource guards, we know this. It's always random objects - garbage usually. We've consulted with our behaviourist/trainer and our breeder and have a plan in place. We can go weeks without incident, and then it's back out of nowhere. It's been one step forward, two steps back. We keep being reassured it will get better, we're making strides, etc... but this has been such a slow process 

Our new plan from the behaviourist involves lots of hand feeding (never an issue with this), not allowing him on the couch/bed, trading, firming up on leave it/drop it commands, etc. The trainer also suggested we get him to drop it when he's guarding something and if he doesn't to grab his collar and pull up - make it uncomfortable (not hurt him) when he doesn't drop it right away, but give big reward when he does. 

Tonight he had a rawhide bone (we never allow this, but was left behind from my mom's dog) and he started to guard it. He got on the couch with it and was growling over it. Owen wanted to try to get it. He tried to trade... Logan would bare his teeth any time he'd approach with a treat. He threw a few treats at him. He'd eat the treats, and go back to the bone. I said to give it up, it was going no where good. He said he was confident he could get it. Threw a few more treats, then Logan got up to get one that had fallen on the floor and Owen reached for his collar (not the bone... but to be fair, the bone was on the couch so he didn't know what he was going for) and he bit his hand. He broke the skin to the point I thought he may need stitches. Thankfully he didn't and once we cleaned it up it wasn't as bad. 

I'm so scared that we can't get this out of him. We've tried so much and I'm just so anxious that if he does this to someone else we'll have to get him put down. I'm frustrated with myself because we have a plan that I know we're not following the way we should. 

This is even more frustrating because he's an incredible dog - he is SO obedient, has been able to go off leash since he was a pup... people comment all the time how amazing he is....and as a result I find myself over exaggerate how bad he is with his resource guarding to make sure my friends don't get bitten when they try to grab something from him.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

If it helps.... 

Our first golden resource guarded... and long story short, the way he had been trained pretty much ruined the trust between him and us. Did not ruin our relationship with him (we loved that dog like crazy), but we accepted that he was a dog who could potentially snap. We did not always know how to handle this until we had our second golden and saw him exhibiting the same exact behaviors. 

The difference with golden #2 is we had a better instructor with the puppy classes, and this was somebody who took on private cases as far as problem solving aggressive or temperamental breeds/dogs. 

This lady zeroed in on making sure we treated these dogs respectfully and never forget that they are dogs. Meaning that we never took something out of their mouths unless we were giving them something in exchange. The higher value the object in their mouths, the more distance between their mouths and our skin. We trained the dogs to spit and sent them after tossed treats while we picked up the items they spit out. 

When it came around to raising Danny, Jacks, and now Bertie - none of those dogs showed any sign of resource guarding towards us. I did see some RG behaviors between Jacks and Bertie, which I thankfully corrected before it went beyond shark eyes. But a lot of that was credit to learning what we ourselves were doing wrong with the first two goldens. Once we changed our own behaviors, the problems with Charmy and Sammy cleared up. 

We went from 2 bites with Sammy before he was even 2, to zero the rest of his life. And Charmy continued to be a total cwab about some things, but the difference with him is both we and he knew where the line was. We backed off when he growled. He knew he would not get rewarded until he backed off or dropped whatever. And like I said - anything very high value dropped in his space - we did not touch that item until he was chasing after a tossed treat. And nobody grabbed him or manhandled him when he growled. He pretty much was accepted as he was and we learned to live with him. And it was successful considering he only had one bite and that was a couple days before he died and we assumed he was out of his mind because of pain. 

And I just have to say - I don't see any correlation between the resource guarding and allowing these dogs to live normal and happy lives. Whether that's being able to eat their foods without somebody messing with them or being able to sleep on the couch or bed. <- I wake up every morning with Jacks sleeping on his pillow next to mine and Bertie sprawled near my feet. Jacks is non-confrontational in every way when it comes to us and Bertie appears to be made of the same soft fluffy stuff. <- I just had to point that out, because a lot of the "alpha dog" keeping the dog in his subordinate place type training was the reason why Charmy was as broken as he was before he was even a year old.


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

Thanks for the response. I'm so willing to put in all the work needed to make this right but part of me is nervous we will never over come this 

I've been googling resource guarding success stories and it's been helping me remain focused. It's just hard knowing my precious puppy who everyone thinks is so loving can go shark eyes and turn in to a monster like this...


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Hey Angie, I posted a few thoughts on a previous thread, (reprinted here sorry for repetition), maybe some ideas will help you. The one thing I would further comment on regarding this post, is: after their initial training and during their sporatic mini training exercises for the pups about the guarding, I make sure to let them eat their dinners, their chews, their bones in peace. 
When I am doing a lesson, they know to let me in there, but their dinner time should not be a stressful time. 
Also, I never ever allow anyone to take anything from my dogs. So there should never be an issue of a stranger bite happening. If I did not trust the pup, I would remove all bones etc with company. But hands off from everyone except those in the home.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't agree with the whole Whose the Boss method.
Resource Guarding starts in the puppy pack. Kinda like survival of the fastest to the bowl. Natures way.
Each of my Goldens puppies came to me, Homer as 4 month old, Ollie as 8 week old, with guarding inclinations. I immediately began with the small steps of hand feeding them their dinner for a week. Then dropping in high value yummies when they were eating. And trade games all the time, trade for ball, trade for behaviors, trade for everything. Also while trading, figuring out what rewards are high and low value to work in which circumstances. I know a piece of dog treat will suffice when I want a ball drop, but a piece of meat will be required if I want a dead thing drop.

Additionally, as they get older, the Leave It command is invaluable. 

Eventually, with both dogs, they learned that my hands do not threaten them in any way, my hands do not take their survival food, they give food. They do not need to guard their prized possessions from me because I will give them back. 

A few weeks into training them as pups, I was able to take most anything from both Olliver and Homer, at any time, with no growling or threat. But I made sure that I gave them plenty of freedom during meals to relax. I still practice trade all the time and once in awhile feed Ollie in his bowl, etc. Practice never stops.

Now I have Tyson who came to me at 15 months. First week he was awful with Olliver as Tyson never had a toy before and was super possessive. We had to remove all toys until we could introduce under supervision little at a time. He and Ollie can even play tug now with very little issues. if Tyson starts getting snarky, away the toys go. Its usually when they are tired or at it too long.

Tyson also growled and scared the stuffing out of me first week. I was tired and am so used to taking ball from Ollie for retrieval, that I went to take ball from Tyson (they look alike!) and he went after my hand. So, made sure not to make that mistake again and started with puppy lessons outlined above. 5 weeks later he will allow me to take ball, but I don't push it. He is still learning in baby steps. Harder when they are older and come to you with possession issues. 

I do remember one time with my Homer, he had a dead flattened raccoon carcass he grabbed in the park. He would not drop it, and kept moving away form me with it, first and only time ever he did such. So, I just put him on lead and tied him to the nearest tree and started walking away. He was in a dilemma; mom or raccoon? I won out, he dropped raccoon and I untied him. In such cases or emergency ingestion situations, I would only hope to have something really spectacular in my pocket. 
Good luck!


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## Goldens R Great (Aug 19, 2010)

"The trainer also suggested we get him to drop it when he's guarding something and if he doesn't to *grab his collar and pull up - make it uncomfortable (not hurt him)* when he doesn't drop it right away, but give big reward when he does." 

IMHO I don't think it's a very good idea to grab a dog's collar when he is resource guarding. I personally think trading for a higher value item is the way to go.

I think this article re: resource guarding is quite interesting.

My Dark Secret: I'm a Resource Guarder | Dog Star Daily


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AngieAvenue said:


> Thanks for the response. I'm so willing to put in all the work needed to make this right but part of me is nervous we will never over come this
> 
> I've been googling resource guarding success stories and it's been helping me remain focused. It's just hard knowing my precious puppy who everyone thinks is so loving can go shark eyes and turn in to a monster like this...


The older a dog is while exhibiting these behaviors, the more set in stone they are. You are not going to change your dog. What has to change is the handling and habits that you and other people have around your dog. 

- After our #2 golden bit my baby sister in the back and leg the same day another sister went to the ER to get her arm stitched up, we (all of us kids) banded together and really started to DO the stuff that our instructor had been telling us to do with both dogs. We got our act together and it worked. Thankfully Sammy was only a year old or so and the resource guarding and aggression went away through training and handling. A lot of it came down to gaining his trust. These dogs have to learn that any time you take something out of their mouths, they will get a reward instead. 

I remember a few times with Sammy - he would have pork chop bones in his mouth and going down his throat - and we could reach into his mouth and yank those bones out without having our hands bit off. A lot of the time this was because we had conditioned him to know he would be paraded into the kitchen and given pork chop meat WITHOUT the bone or bread or something else as a reward. 

You may not get there with your dog if he is over 2 or so and a lot of these behaviors have been there this whole time and set. What you may end up doing is living the rest of his life as we did with Charmy. Char - was never as trustworthy as Sammy. We did a lot of trading and rewarding and basically did not push him to hard or mess with his safety bubble. We accepted him as he was and learned how to handle him. 

This is the big thing that you, family, friends - everyone who comes into contact with this golden, they need to be on the same page as far as helping this dog be successful and not setting him up for fail.


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## aussieresc (Dec 30, 2008)

Having done rescue for over 15 years hearing the advice of the behaviorist to grab the dog's collar sent chills up my spine. I would be very careful about doing that with a dog who is resource guarding. You may eventually get the item but you may get a bite as well.


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

He just turned one year old and we've been working on this issue consistently for about 4 or 5 months. We're told the road to change is long, but it feels like forever :/


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

aussieresc said:


> Having done rescue for over 15 years hearing the advice of the behaviorist to grab the dog's collar sent chills up my spine. I would be very careful about doing that with a dog who is resource guarding. You may eventually get the item but you may get a bite as well.


 
I agree!!! I would *never *touch a dog that is resource guarding. It is a set up to be bitten. Most importantly, never go to the dog to get the item away. 

If you have to have that item right now (ie. the item is your new Coach purse), call the dog to you, run him thru a series of obedience manuvers (sit, here, front, heel, sit, heel, etc) and get the dog thinking about the obedience. Keep the commands coming in quick succession and be HAPPY while you do it. Dogs struggle with doing more than one thing at a time and he often he will drop the item on his own during one of the manuvers. When he does this DO NOT stop and pick it up. Just give the heel command and walk him away from the item. Pick it up after the dog is safely secured in his crate or another room.

Another method is to command the dog to Kennel up at the first sign of any guarding. Often the dog wiill leave the item behind and kennel up. If he takes the item just let him (ie this item is a stick and not the new Coach purse). If the dog takes the item with them - close the door with your foot and then latch it with your hand. After a period of time you can let the dog out and, often, the dog will leave the item behind and you can close the door on the item and retrieve it later.

Most important is your attitude. If you are concerned, worried, anxious, stressed about resource guarding then the dog is concerned, worried, and stressed. That can add to the problem so you need to get a handle on your own emotions if you want to get a handle on the dog's issue.


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

Hi all!

Wanted to update:

We've been a week without incident - we have been doing a LOT of 'drop it' and 'leave it' training. He's off the couches, beds, etc. which is a struggle in itself, but it seems to be making a difference. Our breeder also recommended some exercises with his food bowl based on a study with Dr. Dunbar. We are trying it this weekend. He doesn't guard his food, but he says this may help us and we are willing to try anything. 

We've taken your advice and we've stopped trying to hold his collar when he resource guards. I mentioned this advice to Owen and he said he was trying to get the collar when he bit him and feels he made a bad situation worse by doing so. 

Both the breeder and our trainer are confident we can get past this based on his current age and how he's been responding to training. I still feel we're on a rollercoaster (good days and bad.) They are both on the same page with our training plan, but we are going to seek additional advice from a local trainer who works with police dogs. We really like our trainer and plan to continue with him - he has a high success rate with 'troubled' dogs, but we feel we need training ourselves on our approach and attitude when addressing this - little things like how we should be standing or tone of voice, etc. 

I'm not giving up on him. 

Thank you all for your support and kind words. It means so much to have this community


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

One thing the trainer and the breeder disagree on is neutering him now. I'd love to hear your advice...

The breeder would like us to wait until at least 18 months and we agreed to this when we took him in to our family. The trainer understands the reasons for this, and has stressed that it will not solve the problem, but it will make it easier. I had made an appointment last week but cancelled it after talking with the breeder. He feels if we do this now, we may face other issues. 

I'm very on the fence - I don't think it's a cure by any stretch, but less testosterone would certainly affect this issue, would it not? 

He turned one last week - so we're 6 months out from when they have recommended. 

I would much rather risk neutering a few months early and facing some health issues years from now, then having to have him put down because of a bite... but if this is going to have no affect whatsoever, I'll wait. I know that's not the black and white, but again... 

I'd really love your input.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

We lived with a resource guarding dog that would bite for more than a decade.

some things we learned:

hands off & keep voices calm

accept that she would never be 100% (or even 98%) trustworthy...

accept that whatever she is eating may make her sick and deal with the vet issues as a secondary problem - unless it will kill her immediately, behavior issues take precedence.

accept that the way she was managed in our home was always going to be more rigid/strict than the other dogs in our home..that she needed to be managed uniquely not equally.

teaching a retrieve to hand was vital in learning to live with her...stolen (non-food) items had FAR more 'value' to her if she brought them to us and put them in our hand versus hoarding them.

routine was very important to her - stressors increased her stealing and guarding behaviors.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm so sorry you are going through this.


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

Feeling much more encouraged today!

We have been doing about 3-4 training sessions a day working specifically on a rock solid drop it. He's getting much better with the command. His 'leave it' command is great and very consistent in training, but not yet in real life scenarios. Practice, practice. 

Today he found a scrap of leather and tried to hop in to the chair where he hoards. I knew it would be an issue - he had shark eyes right away. I told him firmly 'No. Off.' and he got off the chair but still had the look. I had to say drop it twice, but he did it. I gave him a treat as soon as he dropped it - then moved to the other side of the room and told him to lay down and stay, gave him a treat, and got the leather. Far from ideal, but I'm focusing on small victories!

This weekend we're going to make a ranked list tonight of the top ten things he guards. We're going to do another week of training solid drop it and leave it commands, then next week start setting up scenarios with the list. 

We also ordered Mine! off Amazon - hoping it's here for some weekend reading! 

Thanks again for your advice... it means the world to us and Logan


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## Goldens R Great (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm happy to read your latest post about Logan. It sounds like you're doing a good job with him and that he's coming along nicely. It definitely sounds like you're making good progress with him.


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