# BN and CD? Or straight to CD?



## JerseyChris (10 mo ago)

You are the busiest dog person ever.. I wish I had half your energy


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

JerseyChris said:


> You are the busiest dog person ever.. I wish I had half your energy


haha — we got started about a year and a half late due to COVID. Then I just desperately started signing up for what was available when it was. We’ve had some breaks in obedience also because our first school stopped giving classes and then there was a lapse before we found another.

I figure if we keep chipping away at it and training, we’ll get somewhere. 😀 We really love our newest obedience class/trainers. Such a positive and happy place.

Oh, and I’m 61 now so I expect it will start waning. Logan is experiencing my last hurrah. 😂


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

nah


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Basically the reason why your instructors asked this question is they are looking to see how to prep you and perhaps what to work on in the classes. I mean, probably?
> 
> I train for CD+ (classes and matches), but get a very green dog started with BN first. Why? Because I want high scores in regular novice when we have an opportunity to compete against the OTCH people for high in trial. A dog that's been in BN is going to be more ring proofed and experienced than a dog who is out in a ring first time ever with no treats, praise, etc... and owner who is flipping out because it's _their _first trial too.
> 
> Also many novice A dogs used to NQ because of off leash heeling. Basically the dog is not ready, very green, doesn't know what's going on, etc... I "think" that novice has improved because people are doing a more gradual approach with their young/green dogs.


Thank you. Very helpful! That’s a good point about getting the practice before going on to being scored for your CD.

I may very well be that owner you described. 😂


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

eh


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> We have ALL been that owner.  Not just for novice A.


I’m going to start train like you trial events in January. Those will be helpful. My school holds them, but has put them on break until then. 

I once saw a Standard Poodle (I was volunteering) doing novice obedience and she stayed 6’ behind her owner moving in as slow a motion as she could and still move forward. I guess she was overwhelmed by the environment. Another time a dog just dashed out of the ring entirely. I’ll go into any competitions trying to remind myself no matter what happens, we’ve worked hard and to have fun with it. Of course, if Logan ran out of the ring, I’d probably in real life be grumpy and medicate myself with Prosecco. Lol


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

It’s really a personal preference. My Novice A dog never did BN. She missed HIT with 1 crooked sit. Both the goldens did BN but I put them out there at a much younger age. We also did Rally novice. I got started on rally when I decided that I wanted to get as many N’s as I could out of Pilots registered name. Silly, I know, but it motivated me!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I went straight to CD with Eevee. It was fine. We NQ’d twice on things that couldn’t really be helped. One score was pretty good. The others were just ok.

I do kinda wish we had done BN first just for the ring experience. For both of us. I am so used to having her attached to me via leash, that _*I *_struggled with offleash heeling. My cues got sloppier and I walked less confidently.

I think I would do BN if I were you. It will help you get your own nerves under control.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

It’s been a while since I did obedience, but what is BN? I did no formal obedience classes or practice shows with my last girl, April-just trained at home or at parks based off of what I had learned showing my first girl Autumn in 4-H. April did novice A and scored 195 on all 3 legs of her CD. That was my first and only AKC title since mom life started I didn’t go any further (so far-I hope to do more obedience and try my hand at conformation with my next golden!).


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

diane0905 said:


> My competition obedience class trainers today asked the class if anyone was planning on getting a BN or were there some going straight to CD.
> 
> I said CD and one said that’s what she did and the other said she trialed for her BN and CD on the same day.
> 
> What think ye? Y’all?


I don't know if this is helpful, but just the other day my obedience instructor said to do Rally first to get the dog ring ready, where you can talk to them and keep it positive and then go on to the CD.


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

diane0905 said:


> My competition obedience class trainers today asked the class if anyone was planning on getting a BN or were there some going straight to CD.
> 
> I said CD and one said that’s what she did and the other said she trialed for her BN and CD on the same day.
> 
> What think ye? Y’all?


Just curious, who do you train with? When I was active in obedience I used to go down to Connie Cleveland once a month for private lessons. I'm starting up in obedience again and so bummed she moved.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

kjengold said:


> Just curious, who do you train with? When I was active in obedience I used to go down to Connie Cleveland once a month for private lessons. I'm starting up in obedience again and so bummed she moved.


I wish I had trained with Connie. She left before I started at Dog Trainer’s Workshop. In the beginning I was there training with the people Connie Cleveland worked with there — Cat Perry, Annette Sizemore, and Karlene (can’t remember her last name.) They stopped offering the classes and Annette told me about Happy Dogs in Wellford (right outside of Spartanburg.) The instructors are Lou Ann McGahey and Paula Xan Cudd during the day. I think Annette and Lou Ann teach during the evenings. All very good instructors.

I go during the day because I’m traveling from Columbia to class.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Goldens&Friesians said:


> It’s been a while since I did obedience, but what is BN? I did no formal obedience classes or practice shows with my last girl, April-just trained at home or at parks based off of what I had learned showing my first girl Autumn in 4-H. April did novice A and scored 195 on all 3 legs of her CD. That was my first and only AKC title since mom life started I didn’t go any further (so far-I hope to do more obedience and try my hand at conformation with my next golden!).


Beginner Novice.






A Great Next Step After CGC -- The AKC Obedience Title of Beginner Novice – American Kennel Club







www.akc.org


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

kjengold said:


> Just curious, who do you train with? When I was active in obedience I used to go down to Connie Cleveland once a month for private lessons. I'm starting up in obedience again and so bummed she moved.


I meant to also say you could join Obedience Road. That’s Connie’s online platform and she’s very interactive via new content — video instruction and webinars. She answers individual questions via videos also.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> Basically the reason why your instructors asked this question is they are looking to see how to prep you and perhaps what to work on in the classes. I mean, probably?
> 
> I train for CD+ (classes and matches), but get a very green dog started with BN first. Why? Because I want high scores in regular novice when we have an opportunity to compete against the OTCH people for high in trial. A dog that's been in BN is going to be more ring proofed and experienced than a dog who is out in a ring first time ever with no treats, praise, etc... and owner who is flipping out because it's _their _first trial too.
> 
> ...


I meant to tell you my sister, Debbie, used to live in Ann Arbor and loved it. She said it’s such a beautiful area. She doesn’t like South Carolina summers. Lol It does get quite sweltering here.

I’m envious of the OTCH trainers who have been there, done that. It’s such a different place to be than brand new/never have done any of it, so it’s helpful to hear the rhyme and reason of why someone would choose to go the BN route. We’ve been prepping a lot, but a novice trainer‘s training is different from the information the dog gets from someone who has already earned an OTCH. Logan is probably often thinking, “That one was on her!” 😅

I know it helps to think ahead, but it can all be overwhelming when learning so much, so I like to keep it light and set a specific goal and then move on to the next one.

I will say, I do miss all the Open exercises we used to do at my former obedience club. I felt more prepared for some of the Open exercises than I did for Novice. The class I’m in now is specifically focusing on Novice and then Open is the next class I would progress to.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

whatve


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> I used to train with somebody who didn't even let you take open classes until you had at least 1 novice leg. >.< That mentality stuck until I was taking classes with my Jacks and the people teaching the class sort of made it clear how closely related all the levels are and even now it's particularly clear now that AKC dragged facets of utility into open.
> 
> With novice you've got your off leash heeling and your recalls. If you do not have that downpat, then you are not going to be able to jump into open where all heeling is off leash (you can't even touch your dog's collar in the ring unlike in novice where it's allowed to lead the dog from exercise to exercise by the collar, don't rely on that or do it, but you can if you wanted to) and you go from the one recall in novice to three of them.
> 
> ...


Just responding the last paragraph: there’s still way too much talking in Rally IMO. I don’t think it leads into obedience much at all except for a few foundational skills (heeling, finishes, moving downs/stands, etc.). Talking is a crutch in Rally and the scoring is not nearly as hard as it is in Obedience (depending on the judge). If you start in Rally instead of Obedience, it can really lead to some bad habits that are extremely difficult to overcome. However, if Rally is your goal, then talk all you want! But for people who use Rally as a way to get ring experience before moving into Obedience, I highly recommend treating it like an obedience run: only talk when necessary to give commands with a few reinforcer words scattered out. Absolutely no cheerleading or you will regret it almost immediately in Obedience.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

I think I have a "sign difficulty."  I don't care for them and I'm not that patient with them in a ring setting. I fell in love with obedience long ago before RNs, BNs, and Rally were a thing. When Rally started at the club I was training at, the head instructor REALLY wanted everyone to try it, so I did...and I HATED it. That's just me...I know other people love it, and that's great. The signs drive me crazy and it just doesn't fit in with my training towards more traditional titles. When my Novice A dog started to get ring ready, we went to fun matches and then showed in UKC Obedience. That was a pretty good indication as to whether we were ready to show in AKC Obedience and we went straight to Novice and got our CD. That dog never NQ'd. We also do not just train Novice, but teach pieces of Novice-Utility while polishing Novice. I plan to do the same with the dog I am training now - has not been in an obedience ring yet, but he can do full set of scent articles, etc. It's not a fast way of training, but it works for me. I totally respect that everyone has their own goals and enjoys something different.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I was happy to get to a place where they were focusing more on novice as I felt like it wasn’t focused on enough earlier. That being said, we enjoyed the open exercises we learned and Logan doesn’t strike me as a dog who will forget what he’s learned. He’ll pick right back up on it.

Logan has an RN, but we did it virtually. I’m not going to do rally with him until we’ve done more obedience stuff.

And I agree about the sign aversion. It’s not my favorite, but to be honest — I have trouble seeing the signs. If they were poster size, I’d be okay with them. 😅 I have one stronger contact lens and one weaker, which works great for reading and seeing at a distance. The in between distances are more difficult for me. Mostly it’s just the stop sign if it’s smaller. That could be overcome, just my memorizing all the signs — but I think it’s better for Logan right now to have less talking/praising during.


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## Rion05 (Jan 4, 2016)

diane0905 said:


> I have one stronger contact lens and one weaker, which works great for reading and seeing at a distance.



I do, too! Maybe there is a link...although my aversion to the signs started before my goofed up two contact lens vision. 🤪


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

kdsjshkdfjdfk


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

You should absolutely do BN first. Of the three "intermediate" titles (BN, GN, GO) AKC added a few years ago, BN is, by far, the most useful. GO has its uses; GN is a complete waste of an entry fee. Almost all high-level trainers I know do BN first. It is a great way for you to truly assess where your dog is in a "safe" way. The dog has a leash attached at all times except for the short recall. That takes away the stress of worrying that your dog will leave the ring, although I have seen a dog or two make a break for it on the recall. Rare, because in the crowded, scary confines of a trial, most dogs go to their owner for security.

Coincidentally, I showed my youngster, Hawthorn, for the very first time last weekend. I showed him in BN one day and RN the second. Since it was his first time in the ring, I had someone video the BN run. He NQ'd on the recall. He came when the judge said "Call your dog" instead of waiting for me, but I didn't care about the NQ. I wanted him to have a good experience and I wanted to see how he reacted to the ring environment. My goal is an OTCH, not a BN. 

Re: Not beginning to train Open until you have a Novice leg. OMG, that advice is so, so wrong, wrong, wrong. Whatever your highest training goal is, you train with that title in mind from day one, especially if you're working on OB titles. Novice Obedience is essentially heeling, with a couple of other minor things thrown in. It takes 6 months to a year to teach a competition level heel and you will be working on heeling for your dogs entire OB career. It takes about a year to teach the Open exercises well enough to compete with a decent score. It takes a year or two to teach the Utility exercises. If you teach the levels sequentially: A) your dog will be well into middle or old age before you finish Utility and B) You will be really bored with only teaching heeling for the first year. I suggest, at a minimum, picking two of the Open and one of the Utility exercises to work on while you're training for Novice. If you know for sure that your goal is at least UD, start working on those go-outs TODAY. 

Hawthorn's first BN run. There is plenty to work on, but his attitude was good.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> You should absolutely do BN first. Of the three "intermediate" titles (BN, GN, GO) AKC added a few years ago, BN is, by far, the most useful. GO has its uses; GN is a complete waste of an entry fee. Almost all high-level trainers I know do BN first. It is a great way for you to truly assess where your dog is in a "safe" way. The dog has a leash attached at all times except for the short recall. That takes away the stress of worrying that your dog will leave the ring, although I have seen a dog or two make a break for it on the recall. Rare, because in the crowded, scary confines of a trial, most dogs go to their owner for security.
> 
> Coincidentally, I showed my youngster, Hawthorn, for the very first time last weekend. I showed him in BN one day and RN the second. Since it was his first time in the ring, I had someone video the BN run. He NQ'd on the recall. He came when the judge said "Call your dog" instead of waiting for me, but I didn't care about the NQ. I wanted him to have a good experience and I wanted to see how he reacted to the ring environment. My goal is an OTCH, not a BN.
> 
> ...


That was fun to watch. Hawthorn did well and looks happy!

They didn’t say not to train for Open. They just said not to sign up for their particular class until the dog has at least one in person title.

If this is the list of open exercises, Logan has practiced all but drop on recall. 

I will ask them in the next class about trying for a BN. They weren’t discouraging it by any means. I think they just wanted to know our plans.

The first time I left Logan in a sit like that and walked the perimeter of the room, he was young and beside six other dogs in a line. I just knew he would break to try to visit, but he didn’t. They were laughing at how much I kept my eye on him. 🤪


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

sdjkdjshk


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> When first taking classes with people who had dogs working on gloves and jumps in novice class, I remember being bewildered about WHY I would train these things if I didn't know if my dog would even get there. I believe that training for the higher levels can first take the mystery of what you got in your dog out of the equation.... and seeing the relationship between all 3 levels of obedience, it made sense training each of those exercises with the highest level in mind. And then some of the higher level exercises take a million reps before they are ring worthy....
> 
> ...


Oh. Yes. Thanks for the reminder. We worked on some command discrimination. It’s just been a bit and I’ve been more focused on what we are doing in this class. And on field training. And back on agility.  

I quickly googled because I’m heading out to visit my MIL.

I would have had to do that open class back to back with the one I’m in anyway and that would have been long for Logan.


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

diane0905 said:


> I meant to also say you could join Obedience Road. That’s Connie’s online platform and she’s very interactive via new content — video instruction and webinars. She answers individual questions via videos also.


I'm on the waiting list and hopefully will get in and start in January.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Megora said:


> Rally... I do not think was ever intended to be an intro to regular obedience. It was more about giving people with retired dogs who could not jump full height something else to do rather than completely retire + they also wanted it to be a cross between obedience and agility. When it was initially introduced at the place where I trained, I'm not sure if the exercises were different at the start or what, but we had more exercises and jumps from agility set up on a rally course. You had more overt handling and talking allowed, etc.... which made it more difficult to then jump into novice because you were shaving away everything for the most part that made rally easier than regular obedience.
> 
> Now they have bumped up the difficulty in rally, so I'm not sure how it compares or leads into obedience.... other than people do have issues fading the handling and verbal praise/encouragement/etc from rally to regular obedience. There's people who might get a 100 in rally struggling to Q in the 170's.


Rally is supposed to be an introduction to Obedience. When you get to the Master level, there's obvious getting ready for Utility exercises in the mix. I can't stand how much talking is allowed. I have seen people leaning over their dogs begging them to do things in Master and getting good scores! I feel there should be deductions for excessive handling. A dog that is excessively handled and accidently does things should never receive a better score than a dog who is held to a much higher standard and makes one mistake. (It's happened to me) Most people in Rally would struggle in Obedience. 

Does Pilot get it all perfect? Heck no! But he is held to Obedience standards in the Rally ring!


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

Following this thread. I would LOVE to get into OB but am high-anxiety and Colt responds to my stress by running off to visit the judge. We’ve been getting a lot better but it is slow progress. We’re doing Rally Intermediate in November and I’ve considered entering BN but get cold feet when I stare at the premium. I might need to have a couple of you review a video or two of us practicing the course 🤣


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

xRoan said:


> Following this thread. I would LOVE to get into OB but am high-anxiety and Colt responds to my stress by running off to visit the judge. We’ve been getting a lot better but it is slow progress. We’re doing Rally Intermediate in November and I’ve considered entering BN but get cold feet when I stare at the premium. I might need to have a couple of you review a video or two of us practicing the course 🤣


I’m sure many would be happy to look at your videos. I would for sure!

I used to have terrible stage fright — like knees shaking — and I forced myself to do a couple of fitness contests where I had to get on a stage in a bikini and hooker heels. Lolol My knees WERE shaking before I headed out, but at that moment it was sink or swim and I swam.

That was just me though — I’m sure a dog notices when their owner handler is nervous. I say prepare yourself and just go out there and do it. (I have not yet, so take that advice for what it is. Hahaha It sounds like you have more experience than I do.) I figure that’s the best way to conquer the nerves. When I’ve volunteered, people seemed real kind to the people who didn’t do as well.

I think my biggest fear of my dog going to visit a judge would be in agility because they are so amped up. In field training, he’s free and running away from me also, but he likes the duck more than the gunners so far And seems proud to bring it back to me. That being said, I do sense a difference in how Logan behaves somewhat if he is in a wide open space than when he is in a room full of other dogs. He’s getting much better the older he gets and the more he is exposed to the atmosphere.

If you’d like any more advice from an inexperienced person, I’m here.


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> I’m sure many would be happy to look at your videos. I would for sure!
> 
> I used to have terrible stage fright — like knees shaking — and I forced myself to do a couple of fitness contests where I had to get on a stage in a bikini and hooker heels. Lolol My knees WERE shaking before I headed out, but at that moment it was sink or swim and I swam.
> 
> ...


Agility is our biggest issue with visiting, but because he’s amped— in OB he visits as a stress avoidance lol. I appreciate the advice!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

dslkd jj j j j j j


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Megora said:


> In a "this could be your dog too" fashion, just sharing that my Gleezy got his BN title today, finishing with a 196 score. He had a 199 score (almost perfect) until the end when I called him to front and he ended up trying to do an auto-finish before remembering to come back up in front and sat very crooked. He lost 3 points there, but all in all was very pleased with the run and after he gets his insurance leg in a show already entered, planning to bump him up to novice and see about getting his CD completed this year. Maybe.
> 
> Regarding should you enter BN or not.. if your dog is running to visit the judge in training, then you know what you need to proof and work on right now to eliminate prior to entering him. But working through this problem - it means a matter of weeks to fix - and entering enough fun matches and drop in obedience classes with trainers who know what you are trying to stop from happening.


Congratulations! Pretty boy. He looks so sweet sitting there with his ribbons.

After reading everyone’s comments, I am definitely going to talk to my trainers about doing a BN first. Logan has not run off to visit people in training since he was younger, but I will certainly not say it could never happen. He had a young Golden Retriever visit him at our last class — very excitedly when we were practicing fronts off lead — and easily called away from him to front, so that’s a good sign (I hope.)


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

xRoan said:


> Following this thread. I would LOVE to get into OB but am high-anxiety and Colt responds to my stress by running off to visit the judge. We’ve been getting a lot better but it is slow progress. We’re doing Rally Intermediate in November and I’ve considered entering BN but get cold feet when I stare at the premium. I might need to have a couple of you review a video or two of us practicing the course 🤣


Well, a few thousand NQs in Open and Utility will get you past the stage fright <g>. 

I have taught college classes and given presentations to fellow scientists, who make a tough, critical crowd. I've never been as nervous at those types of public appearances as I have been at showing dogs. Why? Because, in a "normal" type of public appearance, it's just you, and you know what you can and will do. Your canine partner is an unpredictable wild card who might (in your imagination at least) take off to chase a squirrel, grab a hot dog from a kid, etc. 

Besides showing a gazillion times, there are two things I found most useful at calming nerves: 1) a pre-ring routine and 2) confidence in your dog.

The pre-ring routine will help calm your nerves and your dog's nerves and will make it clear to the dog that, no matter that he's never trained in that particular venue, he will know what is coming and what his job is. When you train at home, try to make it a habit to always or almost always, do your pre-ring routine at the start of training. I would even suggest putting your dog in a crate next your training area. You will always be taking your dog out of the crate just before your class at a show. You pre-ring routine should have 4 parts and take about 2 or 3 minutes, max: 
a) Gathering your stuff. Tell your dog (in his crate) that his turn is coming up. Pick up your leash. Check your armband (or pretend armband). Get the treats for that class out and put them on top of the crate or your chair. 
b) Site familiarity: Get dog out of crate. Be excited. "Time to rock and roll, buddy!" Attach leash. Walk him briefly around to let him do a little gawking, but NO SNIFFING. Don't allow any sniffing during training or when you are getting ready for a run. He can sniff on his own time when you're airing him or after his run. An experienced dog will "tell" you when he's ready by ignoring the surroundings and focusing on you. My old, experienced boy doesn't need much, if any site familiarity. He knows what's coming and turns his attention to me right away. 
c) Warm-up exercises and tricks: Low-stress exercises to get him moving. Spins, circles, a straight line heel, whatever. Things he can do for a quick treat. 
d) Ring entry: Don't crowd the ring entry. Hang back 10 or 20 feet, if possible. As you see the judge is getting close to calling you in, make sure your dog is sitting at your side in heel position and looking at you. When the judge calls you, heel into the ring. 

At a show, keep your attention on your dog. You do NOT need to look at the judge, so don't. You can answer the judge's questions ("Are you ready?" "We're ready.") without looking away from your dog. In practice, if you're alone, you can speak both the judge's and your parts.

Go through your pre-ring routine every time you train and you will find that, in a show, the routine will help calm you down. Time your routine so you know how long it will take. Plan to get your dog out of his crate when the prior dog has a couple of minutes left in his run.

The other big nerve-calmer is having confidence in your dog that he will pay attention to you in a distracting environment. This is very tough for beginners, as most have no idea how much proofing is needed. You should be able to go to a park or shopping center, air your dog (give him a little walk), put him up, wait a few minutes, take him back out of your car or crate, go through your ring routine, have him focused on you within a minute, and able to do a focused heel pattern in that distracting environment without you having to remind him to pay attention and without any luring or bribing. It won't happen overnight.


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## Goldendreamer654 (Apr 8, 2021)

I appreciate this post so much as I've been wondering the same too. My trainer also recommended me to start with rally just to get that ring experience but I agree with the whole not loving the signs. I also have strong contact lens prescriptions and I just don't have the patience to learn. Do you think it would be okay to just jump into and skip rally? Also what's the difference with Beginner Novice A and Beginner Novice B?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)




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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Per the above graph - if you have never titled a dog in AKC obedience, you for sure enter BN A.

After that it is progressive and timing related.

Difference? Not much difference at novice levels of obedience other than in B classes, you compete directly against very experienced trainers. Nothing else is different. The patterns are typically the same in both A and B and the judge does not alter how they score.

As you get into the higher levels like Open or Utility, most untitled dogs compete at the A level with exceptions (trainer's choice + if somebody has gotten an OTCH before they are kicked out of the A levels completely).

With open and utility B, they start mixing up the order of exercises to make it more difficult for the dogs - this is because majority of dogs competing in B have already gotten their titles in those levels, but are continuing to compete while pursuing UDX titles (you have to qualify in both open and utility in the same trial) and pursuing "wins" + points to get the CH title with their dogs. Or like I said above, the trainers are OTCH trainers.

Regarding rally vs obedience - one key thing to keep in mind is that once you have titled in regular obedience with your specific dog and decide to go back to rally with the same dog.... you lose the opportunity to compete in the A classes in rally. You must enter and compete in B classes. With the specific dog. The interesting thing for me was recently learning that rally does not put dogs in A or B based on the handler's experience. It's primarily based on the dog's title history.

Is it confusing? Yep.

Would it be better to do rally or regular novice if you struggle with following a course + having to learn a variety of exercises that may or may not be what you actually do in the ring (ie, always a surprise what kind of course you get, what exercises you do as with rally) - DO regular obedience. Even Beginner Novice would be preferable, because even though you have signs on the floor in front of you to follow, you will never be asked to do anything except heel your dog, demonstrate a clean left turn, right turn, about turn, change pace twice (fast and slow), and show your dog had sit cleanly when you stop. These are the only commands/skills you need to teach your dog and expect to do when you enter beginner novice. You will never be asked to do any maneuvers, doodles, etc... or have to figure out what a sign means (if you perform the sign incorrectly it is a 10 point penalty), etc.


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## Reggie 2214 (10 mo ago)

diane0905 said:


> My competition obedience class trainers today asked the class if anyone was planning on getting a BN or were there some going straight to CD.
> 
> I said CD and one said that’s what she did and the other said she trialed for her BN and CD on the same day.
> 
> What think ye? Y’all?



I think it completely depends on the dog you have, no hard fast rules in my book, what are your goals? I like to train long and trial short. My dogs are trained several levels above where they need to be the first time I enter the ring. Train the dog in front of you and have fun 😊


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Reggie 2214 said:


> I think it completely depends on the dog you have, no hard fast rules in my book, what are your goals? I like to train long and trial short. My dogs are trained several levels above where they need to be the first time I enter the ring. Train the dog in front of you and have fun 😊


Thank you. I suppose I need to think more about long term goals. Being new at all of this, I’ve been doing a sampler platter of sorts as far as what we are training to title in. I’ve been hoping I can get Logan‘s novice titles — which for us in my head are these in this order WC (GRCA), JH, CD sometime in his three year old year and his NA (probably this spring — maybe later.) We got a late pandemic start and I’m green to all of this.

I think we had about 7 months total of training in my first obedience class and I’m on my third six week session in the new class — with about a four month break in between the two schools. The first one stopped giving classes and I had to find a new one. We’ve been in agility probably about a year — we take summer breaks due to the heat here. Logan can run a novice agility course. We started field training this past November — also taking a summer break because of how hot it gets here. So, we’re getting there and keep training even when not going to the classes in the summer. I also go to our local obedience club to use their training building and we head to the mountains in the summer so it’s a bit cooler and we can train outdoors. I’ve only been able to group train in field once (Logan did well!), but I’ve been working on finding more training groups and now we have another Golden training with us for our weekly training sessions with my instructor.

When people have been mentioning OTCH in this thread, I’ve been snorting a little laughing in my head because at the moment I’m wanting to be able to get his CD (and I guess BN first based on advice here) without me spontaneously combusting in the ring. 😅 We do have a lot of fun. I’m being silly about the spontaneous combustion (mostly.)

As for my dog, he’s great and would certainly be titled already with a more experienced handler.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think this applies. 

Also vague observation.... let's assume you have a ladder going one way, another ladder going a different way, and yet another going another completely different way. In order to climb each ladder, you have to climb down the previous one and reclimb that when you are ready to go back, etc... you are going to get tired out and not even reach halfway up any of the ladders.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I’m just having fun training and learning from my dog. I’m not starting each of these things in novice level thinking about conquering the beast/scaling a ladder. I do plan to reach each goal I set it in my head as long as we are both having fun.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

diane0905 said:


> I’m just having fun training and learning from my dog. I’m not starting each of these things in novice level thinking about conquering the beast/scaling a ladder. I do plan to reach each goal I set it in my head as long as we are both having fun.


Do you understand the ladder though?

It applies to people who are just starting out.

It might feel like you are taking very tiny steps or not getting far, but unless you are super long legged and super gifted by nature....  You are not going to be able to get off the ground if you are trying to climb that ladder on the right and aiming for huge goals right from the start.

In your case, my case, many of us.... that would be like you got this dog who you think is fantastic and expect to take you to big places. So you take each of the sports you participate in and say you are aiming for MH, MACH, and OTCH or nothing. And some people can do it, but a lot of people I know fall short because they set goals so high that it wore them out trying to get there and they weren't able to enjoy small victories along the way. As well, same thing with some people who keep all their efforts separate and it involves dropping one thing to do the next.... 

That big ladder with many rungs close together might seem like a lot, but it will keep you encouraged and engaged if you have small goals that can be easily achieved and put you in good footing to continue climbing higher. Many of the different sports may be on the same ladder, but fit well together based on the training plans, etc. 

To me that ladder pic is inspirational and hopeful. 

I think I shared with you privately before how irritated I was with people who literally and constantly pooped on the small titles you listed as hoping to get. That's many things, but especially is discouraging to people who keep all of the sports going.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Yes, I understand the ladder. I remember when I was hiking coast to coast across England, walking up a steep incline somewhere along the way. An older farm man came up as I was halfway up an interminable hill and told me to take small steps. Later on the trip about halfway through I met an 80 year old lady who had walked the C2C (for us it was 206 miles!) three times in the last decade. She told me to just think about taking the next step and make sure I do each time.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I talked to one of my instructors today about this after class and she said by all means to let Logan do his BN first and that it probably is beneficial to get them more ring ready. She said she just didn’t with hers because, at the time, she didn’t think she would do great with the sit and stay as she walked the perimeter of the room. She said she thought in some ways parts of the BN are harder than the CD. Anyway, that’s what I’ll do. They are going to take a longer holiday break after this session, but she said if I wanted we could do a private and she would set up the BN course for us to practice.


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

The issue we're struggling with, right now, is that we can't recreate the trial enviroment... Colt ROCKS practice, but the second we step onto the competition floor him (and I!) melt in to a nervous puddle. Watching some videos back from agility this past weekend, the visiting is almost exclusively a stress response... He had run off even if I "yelled" (to be heard over the crowd and dogs in crates) simple commands, like 'hup' and 'here', 'tunnel', whatever. He thought I was upset that he did something wrong and took off. I doubt he'd be able to handle being in the ring for a BN with me ONLY giving one command per exercise.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

xRoan said:


> The issue we're struggling with, right now, is that we can't recreate the trial enviroment... Colt ROCKS practice, but the second we step onto the competition floor him (and I!) melt in to a nervous puddle. Watching some videos back from agility this past weekend, the visiting is almost exclusively a stress response... He had run off even if I "yelled" (to be heard over the crowd and dogs in crates) simple commands, like 'hup' and 'here', 'tunnel', whatever. He thought I was upset that he did something wrong and took off. I doubt he'd be able to handle being in the ring for a BN with me ONLY giving one command per exercise.


I don’t now how Logan will do with all the activity, but once I feel he’s ready we are going to give it a go. Do you train in a class setting with other people? Where we go they have train like you trial events and we’ll be able to start those after the holidays. I wish more people had that sort of thing. I’d love to try something like that for agility.

We just recently started getting other dogs to train around for our field training. I’m talking about field because we have our WC coming up this weekend. Since I signed up for it, Logan has had a couple of training sessions and was slightly off in both which he hasn’t been much. Then our trainer got COVID. Then Logan got a rash all over his belly and a hellacious looking blood red irritation on his testicles. He’s still on his second round of antibiotics for that and they are finally not looking like a hot mess/moist, but it’s been quite an ordeal. I figure we will go give it a go Saturday and see how that works out for us. 😂 I’m sure I will be a bit nervous being our first time and all.

He did very well in obedience class today. I thought he would be off due to all the medication and testicular discomfort 😬, but he didn’t try to mess with them any so they must finally not be bothering him.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

xRoan said:


> The issue we're struggling with, right now, is that we can't recreate the trial enviroment... Colt ROCKS practice, but the second we step onto the competition floor him (and I!) melt in to a nervous puddle. Watching some videos back from agility this past weekend, the visiting is almost exclusively a stress response... He had run off even if I "yelled" (to be heard over the crowd and dogs in crates) simple commands, like 'hup' and 'here', 'tunnel', whatever. He thought I was upset that he did something wrong and took off. I doubt he'd be able to handle being in the ring for a BN with me ONLY giving one command per exercise.


Reading this, I believe you need to do 3 things.

1. Look for fun matches everywhere - obedience or agility, etc....
2. When you do enter trials - agility or obedience, go EARLY. Try to give your dog as much time as he needs to acclimate and settle in. It also is helpful to your own nerves. This will also give you the opportunity to meet other people and check around for ideas on where other people train and proof their dogs.
3. More obedience training. Including giving yourself 6-12 months to train prior to entering the next trial. That seems like a lot, but putting this in context....

Here in Michigan we have the "home trials" which for a lot of people means a huge opportunity to compete on the same floor/facilities where they train. That is 2 trials in Ann Arbor (2 locations outside AA), 1 in Flint, 1 in Lansing, and 1 in Warren which all offer obedience trials every couple weeks this time of the year. The owners of the facilities + clubs also tend to offer fun matches leading up to these trials where you literally will practice in the same ring/setup that will be used at the trials. It is a huge opportunity to take some degree of "unknown" and difficult out of showing. Otherwise, people go by memory as far as what the setup will be like from show site to show site, and they train for something as similar as possible - although it is not the same, since it's not the same floor, etc. 

There's people who basically decided that this year is not their year to bring young dogs out into open. One person finished a CD at the golden national, but decided to go back to square one in training because she was not happy with how her dog worked. So she skipped the home trials this year and likely will bring her girlie out to the trials next Oct. That's 12 months, but worth the wait?


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## green branch (Oct 24, 2020)

PalouseDogs said:


> I showed him in BN one day and RN the second.


I have a question for people who are doing obedience and rally. In obedience, when you heel and stop, the dog is supposed to sit without being told. In rally, there are pairs of similar exercises where only difference between them is that in one you stop and the dog sit and in the other you just proceed without stoping. So, my question is if in rally, you tell or show the dog to sit is this causing a confusion in obedience? Is a solution to this not to give a sit command on a stop in rally? Thanks.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

green branch said:


> Is a solution to this not to give a sit command on a stop in rally?


Correct. 

Train for your bigger goals.


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## xRoan (Jul 7, 2021)

Colt auto-sits; in Rally, I just have to move fast enough to avoid it or give an alternate queue as per the sign.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

green branch said:


> I have a question for people who are doing obedience and rally. In obedience, when you heel and stop, the dog is supposed to sit without being told. In rally, there are pairs of similar exercises where only difference between them is that in one you stop and the dog sit and in the other you just proceed without stoping. So, my question is if in rally, you tell or show the dog to sit is this causing a confusion in obedience? Is a solution to this not to give a sit command on a stop in rally? Thanks.


It sounds like it would be a problem, but it's not. In Rally, you just start moving before pooch has a chance to sit. For the "auto-sit" your body language is a big cue in OB. (Shoulders go back, stride changes as you halt.) In OB, when you get to Utility, dog has to do a Moving Stand, in which the dog stops and handler keeps moving and the Signal exercise, in which you halt and the dog remains standing. You give a stand signal, but also, you stop more abruptly so the dog doesn't get the normal Halt and Sit body language. 

In Rally, I also give verbal commands as well as body cues. Rally is so herky-jerky, start-stop that I think it really helps the dog to have both verbal and body language cues. If you're working on getting high heeling scores in OB, however, I've found it's best to keep Rally to a minimum until you accomplish your OB goals because Rally can cause your heeling to suffer. Not because of the talking, but because there's no rhythm to heeling in Rally.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

PalouseDogs said:


> In Rally, I also give verbal commands as well as body cues. Rally is so herky-jerky, start-stop that I think it really helps the dog to have both verbal and body language cues. If you're working on getting high heeling scores in OB, however, I've found it's best to keep Rally to a minimum until you accomplish your OB goals because Rally can cause your heeling to suffer. Not because of the talking, but because there's no rhythm to heeling in Rally.


There is actually some rhythm to heeling in rally... but if you have a small dog or a dog that's able to do very tight maneuvers. It's more a small dog sport. When you have a big dog breed like goldens, it's stutter steps all over the place which yes - messes up your heelwork.

People using verbals, body cues (the treat finger), etc... are going to struggle transitioning into regular obedience. Also, the dogs if not doing rally would never be trained with those same cues.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

More questions. Thank you in advance and Happy New Year to all! :


I’m looking at the Train Like You Trial dates and am wondering should I just sign Logan up for one slot on each date? Or is there any benefit to taking a break in time between slots and letting him practice BN more than once on each date?

Also, should I just sign up for BN if that’s what I’m planning on doing first, or is there benefit to (after trying the BN at Train Like You Trial) trying to practice Novice also?


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

I don't know what "Train like you Trial" is, but I'm guessing it's a type of fun match where there's a fake judge and they try to simulate trial conditions. 

At most of the matches I've been to, there is a LOT of waiting around. If the time between slots is long, you and Logan might be bored and tired of waiting by the time your second slot rolls around. If the second run won't be a long wait, I'd do it, but base your strategy for the second run on the results of the first. Do the first as though it were a real trial. Identify the biggest issue you had. On the second run, work on that issue only and aim for success. Have contingency plans for whatever might go wrong in the first run. 

For example, 
If he moves or stands on the Sit for Exam: Enter the ring as though it were a real trial. Do a single leg of the heeling pattern. Praise as you move to the SFE location. Have him sit, but only take a step away. If he moves at the approach of the judge, say No, sit, repeat. Praise quietly as he sits. When he succeeds, give your reward marker (Yes or click or whatever) followed by the reward. If they allow rewards in the ring, give him a treat right after the RM or let him play tug or retrieve something, whatever your reward is. Leave the ring. That will be the end of your run. 

In BN, I care about attitude more than ANYTHING else. Don't fuss about little things. No one will care what your BN score was, but starting his OB career with a good attitude is priceless. Have someone video and watch yourself to see where you might have lost connection with your dog. Unless you're are walking away from him, you should have eyes only for him the entire time in the ring. Don't look at the judge. Good luck. BN is a great intro class.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

diane0905 said:


> More questions. Thank you in advance and Happy New Year to all! :
> 
> 
> I’m looking at the Train Like You Trial dates and am wondering should I just sign Logan up for one slot on each date? Or is there any benefit to taking a break in time between slots and letting him practice BN more than once on each date?
> ...


If you ever plan on doing two actual trials in one day, I would sign up for two runs in one day. It will be good information for you to have as to how you both react to sitting around all day in between runs. For me, Eevee actually did better on a two trial day when we did two conformation shows and two obedience trials in the same day. She didn't have time to get bored. LOL But when we just did two OB trials in the same day, we were both kinda down in the second trial and it didn't go nearly as well as the first. 

I agree with Kelly's advice above as well. Treat the first one like a real trial. If they allow rewards in the ring, work on whatever didn't go well in the first one. You can also work on your jackpot concept if you use jackpots. It takes time to go from getting a lot of rewards to getting zero. So you can do a couple parts of the run, leave the ring for the reward. Then on the next run do one more part than the one before, leave, reward. Repeat the next time you go. I wish I had done more actual trial prep with Eevee before we did her CD.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

So.... to me it sounds like a fun match.

Because there's not a lot of opportunity to do these (done only monthly over here, may be more rare elsewhere), you want to cover your bases and target the level class you want to enter in. <= Long schpeel for, if you intend to title in BN and CD this spring/summer... I would absolutely focus on getting enough practice at the CD level which is more difficult than BN. Meaning, I'd also want to be practicing my stand stays, off leash, finishes, etc.

If you can only do 1 entry - I'd do a regular novice run + ask if you can do the walk around the ring after your run instead of the sit stay get your leash.

If you can do 2 entries - do both a BN run and a CD run.

Fun matches are or can be two different things....

If you have a dog that's literally READY to compete, is competing, etc.... fun matches are for practice + seeing what you need to work on. Especially right after a long break.

If you have a dog in training.... then fun matches are both for the experience/training + seeing where your dog is. Particularly watching what you are still doing to help your dog (additional commands, handling, etc).

***I did fun match on Sat and Jovi was a straight run through like I was in a trial. Because he is competing in open, etc.

Rather than waste an entry on novice with Glee - we did an open run with him as well. This was because my hope is to jump right into open after he's got his CD - but also the open run more or less works on everything we need for novice on a more difficult scale. Glee has 1 CD leg at this time.

So formal run with Jovi. Glee, I did more handling + motivation things because he's still cleaning up. IE, drop on recall, he comes flying like a freight train, so I do a more emphatic drop signal + verbal (you cannot do both in ring) and tossed the treat back behind him. Ideally, I want him anticipating drop a little more and watching for a signal or verbal command. 

^^^ I did a lot of circulatory patterns with that explanation. LOL.

Basic answer is enter both if you can.

If you can't - enter regular novice.



Also - we pre-enter matches here. So there isn't waiting around. You show up close to your assigned times and go. Most early sign ups, the penalty is you have to volunteer judge/steward for a time slot in order to sign up for another. If you hold off until after all spots are filled, it's possible to just show/go without working (but very few spots at that point).


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Thank you, everyone! I also had an email out to my instructor and she also said to do both to get the practice in for our CD. Good to know. It didn’t even strike me as a possibility until I was signing up and I thought surely it may help. 

I just took this pretty photo of Logan, so I’ll share it here. 

I aspire to have as upbeat an attitude as this sweet dog does.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> If you ever plan on doing two actual trials in one day, I would sign up for two runs in one day. It will be good information for you to have as to how you both react to sitting around all day in between runs. For me, Eevee actually did better on a two trial day when we did two conformation shows and two obedience trials in the same day. She didn't have time to get bored. LOL But when we just did two OB trials in the same day, we were both kinda down in the second trial and it didn't go nearly as well as the first.
> 
> I agree with Kelly's advice above as well. Treat the first one like a real trial. If they allow rewards in the ring, work on whatever didn't go well in the first one. You can also work on your jackpot concept if you use jackpots. It takes time to go from getting a lot of rewards to getting zero. So you can do a couple parts of the run, leave the ring for the reward. Then on the next run do one more part than the one before, leave, reward. Repeat the next time you go. I wish I had done more actual trial prep with Eevee before we did her CD.


Good point. I actually gained information as to this also when we were doing JH. I noticed in the four retrieves each day, Logan was definitely more amped up by the last one. In a way, it made it more exciting because my inner thoughts were “Don’t you do it!!” when I saw him get the mischievous glint in his eye. Lolol


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## kjengold (Jun 19, 2007)

diane0905 said:


> I just took this pretty photo of Logan, so I’ll share it here.
> 
> I aspire to have as upbeat an attitude as this sweet dog does.


Very handsome!


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

kjengold said:


> Very handsome!


Thank you! I can’t get over how beautiful he is.


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