# Hammy, 20 Months Old Has Hip Dysplasia - Not Why We Are FUMING



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

As far as sedation it is generally a personal preference of the owner unless the dog is uncontrollable. I perfer mine not be sedated, though small, there is always the risk they won’t wake up. I am curious as to why you want to PennHIP since it measures laxity first and foremost and arthritic change as a by product.

I know my vet here is not the one that shoots the Xrays, he will offer an opinion but that does not always match what the OFA result is and he is one of the more popular vets for OFA xrays where I live. I believe it is fairly common for the vet technician to do the physical process of the X-ray. I have worked with Deb Cohen only once and it was a 6.5 hour drive for me to do so. My dog which was previously cited as dysplastic, retained that rating even when done with Deb’s office. So, based on my own experience, they are not going to say a dog is fine when they are not. 

You are right that the Golden Retriever community on the West coast does look to her and the team there as the best around for hip and elbow Xrays. Though, it is not just Golden folks that do. Her area of expertise is radiography. It does not bother me that she is not the Doctor in the practice. I know it bothers you though and I am sorry you are upset by that. Based on your story it seems that it was miscommunication and not malicious. 

Is there a reason you doubt the findings you got at the second opinion other than that Deb Cohen doesn’t have a Dr. title? Have you had either set of the Xrays submitted to OFA? Xrays should be easy to tell if they are the same set or two different sets. Did you request copies from both practices for your own records?

I know facing a dysplastic diagnosis is not fun. I hope you find a resolution as to if he does or doesn’t have it. I hope you look into availing your self of the help of OFAto review the X-rays. I am hoping for Hammy and you have a good outcome.:crossfing


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Crazy question - can you share images of the xrays here? Or have you shared them on the OFA facebook group?

Am asking because hips are easier than elbows to tell if they are bad or not. People here 
who STARE at xrays all the time because of their own dogs could offer opinions - to back up whatever which vet is telling you. 

Sometimes vets are wrong about xrays. It's why we get second opinions. There's been upset breeders out there whose puppy people went ahead and had surgery done on hips or elbows based on the vet's advice - this when the pre surgery xrays sent by the breeder afterwards to OFA came back as good or normal.

And I agree with Laura - if the xrays are proper positioning, send them in to OFA.

Elbows there's disagreement and confusion because in some cases they go by how clear/clean the elbow joint looks on the xray. Any fuzziness or blurring is assumed to be elbow dysplasia. Where people argue is it could also be the structure of the bone and quality of the xray. 

When I did OFA's for my Bertie, I drove about an hour to have them done by a particular vet who is know for doing BEAUTIFUL xrays. There's no quibbling about positioning when going to her. She also does not put the dogs under anesthesia unless it's ultimately necessary. 

I just had my puppy put under anesthesia for something else and holy crow I'm not looking forward to a repeat of that next month! He had the xrays/anesthesia at 9 in the morning? He squeaked/whined all day. Paced all day. He only came out of it the next morning. 

It might be because he's so young that he has a crazy reaction to being put under anesthesia, but I can't imagine repeating that where it's not necessary.


ETA - I just lost a boy who had bilateral hip dysplasia. Never limped a day of his life. Sound. Happy and very active. Jumped up to 25" in obedience and we retired him from obedience because of a back injury, not the hips. Hiking, this was a dog who climbed pretty steep hills with me and kept plugging along for miles. Hip dysplasia is a disappointment because you should not breed a dog with bad hips, same as bad elbows. But it does not immediately mean a dog is in pain. Dogs do not walk on their xrays.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I know you might feel betrayed in a sense, but if the radiographs are of the same dog, there is not much to be upset about. Positioning skill is a SKILL that not all vets are competent at. And not all use anesthesia, if the dog is calm it is really nicer not to.

Could you post first and second set for us? I would like to see them, though I am not a radiologist, I have been right on 99% of the ones I look at. Many lay people w lots of experience are very good diagnosticians...


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

This is what Deb Cohen is qualified as a vet tech to do, take the xrays. THAT IS IT. So yes, I feel betrayed after being taken into exam room and told BY A VET TECH THAT MY DOG DOESN'T HAVE HIP DYSPLASIA WHEN WE THOUGHT SHE WAS A DOCTOR. WE NEVER SAW DR. COHEN THAT DAY. NOT ONCE. HER HUSBAND IS A FRAUD FOR ALLOWING HER TO DO THIS AS WELL. 

LJack
Is there a reason you doubt the findings you got at the second opinion other than that Deb Cohen doesn’t have a Dr. title? Have you had either set of the Xrays submitted to OFA? Xrays should be easy to tell if they are the same set or two different sets. Did you request copies from both practices for your own records? I DOUBT THE FINDINGS DEB COHEN GAVE US BECAUSE SHE ISNT A VET. PERIOD. SHE TOLD US OUR DOG DIDN'T HAVE HIP DYSPLASIA, NOT HER HUSBAND, THE VET.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Prisms Goldens, "I know you might feel betrayed in a sense, but if the radiographs are of the same dog, there is not much to be upset about." 

REALLY? I don't know what the law is in Florida, but here in California, VET TECHS AREN'T ALLOWED TO GIVE MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS/PROGNOSIS. ONLY VETS ARE ALLOWED TO DO THAT. WE NEVER SAW DR. JEFFREY COHEN. IF I HAD TAKEN DEB'S VET TECH OPINION, OUR DOG WOULD CONTINUE TO BE IN PAIN BECAUSE HE DOES HAVE HIP DYSPLASIA. SHE FLAT OUT NOT ONLY LIED TO US, BUT IT'S AGAINST THE LAW TO DO WHAT SHE IS DOING. GET IT?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I am sorry you are so upset. I hope my post didn’t drive you to the yelling. That was not my intent at all. 

I do hope you have them sent to OFA which could confirm if what you where told as to his status. If you already have the xrays done it would be one of the quickest ways to get more certainty. It would get you an opinion from not only a vet but the head of the OFA program.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Which is why we asked to see them... even if her husband HAD looked at them, if SHE is the one who knows from years of taking radiographs and seeing how OFA rates them, she is the opinion that is the important one. The one that OFA would probably mirror. 
I get the sense of betrayal, but the take away info is important and you got that info, whether the opinion is that of a vet or not.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Again, you are completely missing the point. Her husband never saw them....period. She was the only one that did. Her opinion might be important to you, but I want to hear it from a VET. Hammy had already been seen by our vet, with two radiologists confirming the diagnosis. Under California law, Deb ISN'T ALLOWED TO GIVE A MEDICAL OPINION. PERIOD. She is harming dogs by doing so. If we had taken her non-vet opinion, our dog would continue to be in pain.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Goldieluvr1 said:


> Again, you are completely missing the point. Her husband never saw them....period. She was the only one that did. Her opinion might be important to you, but I want to hear it from a VET. Hammy had already been seen by our vet, with two radiologists confirming the diagnosis. Under California law, Deb ISN'T ALLOWED TO GIVE A MEDICAL OPINION. PERIOD. She is harming dogs by doing so. If we had taken her non-vet opinion, our dog would continue to be in pain.


Can you post the pics? 

There's no reason to shout and I think a lot of us agree w/r to the fact you never saw a vet while paying to see one. That's something that would make anyone angry. 

But as far as talking about surgeries? That implies that these xrays weren't even borderline. Types of hips typically recommended to surgery are those that are moderate to severe. 

Posting xrays done by this person and the ones done by your vet would prove your point the best - if the ones by your vet show clear signs of moderate to severe HD.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Attached are the xrays our vet took, along with findings from two radiologists. Deb's xrays were put on cd rom, and I don't have external drive to upload as I'm mac user. Have at it.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

LJack said:


> I am sorry you are so upset. I hope my post didn’t drive you to the yelling. That was not my intent at all.
> 
> I do hope you have them sent to OFA which could confirm if what you where told as to his status. If you already have the xrays done it would be one of the quickest ways to get more certainty. It would get you an opinion from not only a vet but the head of the OFA program.


Yes, we had sent to OFA. Deb's and our vet's as well. Results will be made public. I'm just surprised that no one is grasping the severity of this situation. Under no circumstances is a vet tech allowed to give medical diagnosis/prognosis (at least here in California, I checked the laws). The only opinion we should have heard that day was from the vet, period. We didn't.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks!

They look tight enough, so I wonder if this is a positioning issue? The legs are rotated weird and pulled down - and that might be making the balls look misshapen. 

Robin?

*I have no idea who this vet tech is. My opinion is just based on sympathy for the situation + looking at the hips. 

The way they are pulled down? I would not send those to OFA. I'd want them re-done with proper positioning.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Our radiologists recommended " Additional images obtained under anesthesia to send to the orthopedic foundation of America or PennHip could be helpful in confirming this diagnosis." Deb Cohen told us we didn't need to do that, no additional imaging would be needed because he didn't have hip dysplasia. Again, she is a non-vet. Not allowed to give medical opinions/diagnosis in California. But what do I know? She actually told us, "well, my husband is a vet, so that makes me a vet also." No, it doesn't. My husband was a cardiologist and I used to work in hospital saying, I would never even think to say that. Sorry to rain on everyone's Deb Cohen parade. She might be "the best" at taking xrays, but it stops there. If she would have just left it at that, none of this would have happened. She has done this to others which is why I'm raising the flag, even if it ostracizes me in the GR world. Really, really surprised by the reactions here.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Megora said:


> Thanks!
> 
> They look tight enough, so I wonder if this is a positioning issue? The legs are rotated weird and pulled down - and that might be making the balls look misshapen.
> 
> Robin?


I'm going to defer to the medical experts. Thanks. We had xrays Deb did submitted to radiologists, and they had the same exact finding. PennHipp will be conclusive.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I have no idea what happened. I only have one side of the story and you are correct, I am not an expert on the laws in California. I don’t know what legally constitutes a diagnosis or prognosis. I think my reaction is from the concept that I always want an OFA (or PennHIP if that float your boat) finding. My vet doesn’t give me what I would consider a diagnosis when we do xrays. He gives me a “here’s what I think OFA will say”. Regardless of what his informed estimate is, I wait for OFA that does this kind of review day in and day out to provide the results. At this time you don’t have that so, I am a wait and see kind of person. If that makes sense.

You have said he is in pain and I am sorry to hear that. What are his pain symptoms? Are you able to do anything to make him more comfortable while you wait for OFA? Oh, by the way, you can call OFA and paster them for the results by phone.


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## Zoeys mom (Apr 26, 2008)

I have no opinion on the xrays. I have no idea. But I do understand where you are coming from. I hope you don’t have to wait too long to get some answers and that your fur baby can get some relief.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

IMHDAO, you need to get a solid handle on reality. Many Vets take X-rays. Many Techs take X-rays. They may even offer their opinion on what the films show. But that opinion is just that, opinion. Getting the positioning correct isn't easy, particularly if you only do a few sets each year. To get an accurate diagnosis the positioning has to be correct. Not kind of, sort of correct, it has to be right. 


It doesn't matter who shot the images as most of the time those images are sent to OFA for review. The opinion of the tech, doesn't matter. The opinion of the vet taking the images doesn't matter. What OFA says matters and that's how it goes. 

I want a person who is skilled and competent at taking a proper X-ray so OFA can do their job. I don't care if they're a vet, a tech or Joe the mechanic from down the street.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Zoeys mom said:


> I have no opinion on the xrays. I have no idea. But I do understand where you are coming. I hope you don’t have to wait too long to get some answers and that your fur baby can get some relief.


Thank you so very, very much. We are blessed to have caught it early (if diagnosis is confirmed), and he is young. I hate having to put him through PennHipp, but it’s the only way to get definitive diagnosis.

My point in posting this was that I didn’t want another family or dog to go through unnecessary xrays, given diagnosis by someone other than a vet. I’m NOT contesting Deb’s xrays, my vet said looked great. We submitted those to radiologists and was given same diagnosis. It was a roller coaster of emotions, being told he did have it by our vet, and then being told her didn’t by someone we believed to be a vet.

Even if there was a miscommunication/giving Deb benefit of the doubt, she NEVER should have given a diagnosis, even if he doesn’t have it. She is hurting these dogs in doing so....and something else that just can’t get out of my head....

How does she achieve this perfect position that everyone raves about in dogs that aren’t sedated/anesthesetized. My vet said putting dogs in those positions without even a sedative is dangerous because they could be hurt.

She just can’t be trusted and lacks the integrity to be around dogs. Would you allow your doctor’s medical assistant to consult/diagnose and give prognosis with NO input from doctor/feedback? 

This isn’t directed at you Zoey’s mom....your girl was beautiful. She was lucky to have you as a mom, as are all Goldie’s parents on this forum. We are passionate about these special animals.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Swampcollie said:


> IMHDAO, you need to get a solid handle on reality. Many Vets take X-rays. Many Techs take X-rays. They may even offer their opinion on what the films show. But that opinion is just that, opinion. Getting the positioning correct isn't easy, particularly if you only do a few sets each year. To get an accurate diagnosis the positioning has to be correct. Not kind of, sort of correct, it has to be right.
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter who shot the images as most of the time those images are sent to OFA for review. The opinion of the tech, doesn't matter. The opinion of the vet taking the images doesn't matter. What OFA says matters and that's how it goes.
> ...


 I have a firm grasp on reality. Thank you very much. Deb crossed the line when she diagnosed at length as not having hip dysplasia. She even told us if his hips came back as mild, he didn’t have it. It was a 30 minute conversation about why Hammy didn’t have hip dysplasia.

Had I not had the knowledge about OFA from this forum, I would have taken what Deb said as gospel. That is the issue. 

Hammy is having PennHip this week where ALL images are automatically submitted for diagnosis (we are doing another set of OFA since he will be properly anthesitized this time). Not up to the technician on which images to submit. How does that help the breed to only select best image to submit. 

Yes, Deb took three and submitted one. Not shady at all. Our vet submitted all three. My boy will have enough prelim reports for anyone that wants to read from at least three if not four vets including two orthopedic surgeons. And why aren’t ALL OFA results made public? Shocked I had to initial a box on the OFA form to make negative results made public. How is that helping to improve the breed if the less than favorable reports are held back. Has been eye opening week for sure.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Goldieluvr1 my heart goes out to you. Having just been through an OCD diagnosis (both shoulders and a hock) and surgery with my 9 month old border collie pup, I can understand how devastating even the thought of having to put one's pup through surgery is - it is scary stuff. I can't speak to your situation, but like you, I would want (and did get) a diagnosis from the orthopedic vet not someone who was not qualified (under the law) to give it. 
I hope you get some answers soon, so that you can make the decisions that need to be made, if you need to make them, waiting in limbo is the hard, and things turn out well for you and your pup!


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Charliethree said:


> Goldieluvr1 my heart goes out to you. Having just been through an OCD diagnosis (both shoulders and a hock) and surgery with my 9 month old border collie pup, I can understand how devastating even the thought of having to put one's pup through surgery is - it is scary stuff. I can't speak to your situation, but like you, I would want (and did get) a diagnosis from the orthopedic vet not someone who was not qualified (under the law) to give it.
> I hope you get some answers soon, so that you can make the decisions that need to be made, if you need to make them, waiting in limbo is the hard, and things turn out well for you and your pup!


We hope your sweet pup is on the road to recovery! How is the baby doing?

We insured Hammy the day he came home at 8 weeks old. I can’t say enough about Healthy Paws....Have already been reimbursed for all of the diagnostic testing. He has better insurance than my PPO as I’m haggling to get reimbursed for out of pocket expenses from last summer. Week after submitting Hammy’s claims, checks arrived. Hope you also have insurance. 

Will keep you in our prayers...


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Another Deb Cohen red flag....upon arrival there was another Golden Retriever in the waiting room. Lovely furr parent of course ?. She asked me where I got Hammy and I asked where she got her sweet girl. Golden Meadows...not going to go into their operation, you can read about it in the forum.

She also had horrible experience and said Golden Meadows only trusted Deb to xray their dogs. I want nothing to do with any Golden Meadows approved business. Strange that a kennel almost three hours away only uses Deb Cohen. Just saying.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

It is clear you are upset. I am sorry this happened. I am sorry the responses on the whole are not what you wanted to hear and are so frustrating for you. 

I do hope you will take a moment to consider that after a few hour window you will not be able to edit posts. I know when I am working through high emotion, I find I sometimes regret what I post or how I worded it once my cooler head prevails. Just a thought.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

LJack said:


> It is clear you are upset. I am sorry this happened. I am sorry the responses on the whole are not what you wanted to hear and are so frustrating for you.
> 
> I do hope you will take a moment to consider that after a few hour window you will not be able to edit posts. I know when I am working through high emotion, I find I sometimes regret what I post or how I worded it once my cooler head prevails. Just a thought.


Why would I want to edit my posts? I appreciate the advice, and I didn’t want people to just agree with me. I expected differing opinions...what I was surprised about was the glossing over at what Deb did as if it was no big deal. I read multiple Facebook and Yelp reviews which stated Deb had given others a diagnosis about their pet...And yes, telling a pet parent that their dog does or doesn’t have hip dysplasia is indeed a diagnosis. 

There is a clear established pattern of behavior which is another reason why I went public with this. I didn’t post about this for almost four days after it happened. I gathered evidence, did research into laws here in California regarding what registered vet techs are allowed to do. I researched her vet tech license to determine if she has specialty as vet technician radiologist (she doesn’t). So yes, there is tremendous emotion here, but I don’t let that dictate something as serious as this is (at least to me), especially when it comes to someone’s reputation. 

The look on her face when my husband told her he was a doctor after we asked what vet school she went to...well, I can’t speak for her, but her face fell. She immediately got defensive and told us that “vets often measure to the millimeter to determine if a dog has hip dysplasia but I can tell by eyeballing it.” Oh, really?! We made NO complaints/judgements in the office because I didn’t know what the law was...I was fairly certain I knew, but needed to confirm it. 

I don’t need nor want a bunch of people just agreeing with me. But I’m utterly & completely shocked that anyone on this thread defending her when she blatantly not only broke the law with us, but so many others as well. It’s all out there on Yelp/Facebook. Fine, I’m lying, exaggerating, need to get a grip on reality...but are the others also lying that Deb gave them medical diagnosis? Her job as vet tech in the capacity of taking x-rays is to take the images. That. is. it. Period. The vet is the individual that interprets/provides guidance on what the x-rays mean. She wants to advise, go back to school and become a vet. 

Yelp review confirming that she has also given diagnosis to others.....

Oh my gosh! We took our Hannah, 2 year old Border Collie bitch for her OFA hip and elbow x-rays. Dr Debra Cohen is the best, hands down!!! Extremely caring, super friendly and beyond words knowledgeable! She explained everything, before and after the procedure, took the time to show everything on the image in details, her opinion, what the grade will possibly be, I'm literally over the moon! She also complimented on the dog, saying, she took over 46 THOUSAND x-rays for OFA, Hannah was one of the, if not THE easiest dog to work with. We're just starting our kennel, but we will never take any if our dogs for OFA elsewhere ever again! Thank you Dr Cohen for such a wonderful experience.

Facebook:

Dr Cohen and Deb are amazing and really love their furry patients and what they do. Great bedside manners and they are very thorough with their exams. Deb is the best hands down if you need OFA x-rays done. I was there last Sat to get my 10 month old active puppy's prelims done on her hips and elbows. Don't know how they were able to get beautiful x-rays done on my girl without sedating her. I also got good news from Deb so it made the long drive even better. ? I wished their hospital was closer to where I live.

I decided to try Newport Beach Veterinary Hospital for OFA X-rays - as referred to me by a friend. Quality and correct positioning of these are critical to make the picture as accurate to what the dog has to for rating as possible. It is very important for my breed and the sport I do with my dogs. You cannot make bad hips look good, but you CAN make good hips look bad with poor X-rays...and you would be surprised at how few vets can do them right. Mrs. Cohen's X-rays were the highest quality and best positioning I've ever seen and I have tried many vets and looked at many X-rays from peer's vets. Despite running behind there was no feeling of being rushed or of being an annoyance to her and she was more than happy to take the time to thoroughly explain the anatomy, what you look for to evaluate the dog's hips and elbows and how my dog's hips would most likely be rated. To top this off, the staff was friendly and accommodating - offering us drinks and candy while we waited; the exam rooms and lobby had obviously up-to-date equipment and were beautiful, well-kept, clean, smelled nice and had comfortable seating. I totally understand how a medical facility can get behind and these made the wait time bearable. Thank you, I will 100% be returning!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

For what it is worth, I didn’t see anyone call you a liar. I don’t think anyone is thinking that, let alone saying that.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Comparison.....I was certified nursing aid for years as I said earlier in acute setting. Worked on a cardiothoracic surgical floor. Part of my job duties were performing EKG’s. I did learn how to informally read the printouts, but there are precise nuances between different rhythms of the heart that I would have needed to go to school to become registered nurse to understand.

I can’t tell you how many times I was asked by the patient what the result was...what did I think? I performed meticulous EKG’s, made certain electrodes were placed precisely where they needed to be. It was beyond my scope of practice to do anything else. 

I would tell my patient, “I’m going to give this to your nurse who will review it and call your cardiologist to confer. The nurse or your doctor will give you the results. I know you are anxious about the results, I will try to help move the process along to get you amswer but only from the nurse or doctor.” If they wanted a copy of the EKG, we were allowed to do so.

There were times I looked at EKG and in my mind it looked clear, the reading by the machine would even confirm it. How many times would I be wrong, so many. I could have told a patient, yeah, machine says its clear. I have done thousands of these...And moments later told by the nurse or doctor they were having a heart attack. So forgive me if I take this seriously. We are talking about the health of our dogs. She knows better if she is the expert everyone says she is. Shame on her & I hope she is reading this.


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## laurenC (Sep 20, 2017)

Okay, I appreciate your conforming to the letter of the law (truly i really really do) ...but im really unsure why the fact perfectly good xrays are offending you? Deb is very very well known in the golden world for a reason...she is VERY GOOD at what she does. She knows how to take proper films and has prevented ALOT OF MAJOR PROBLEMS.
My bitch emma is a great example. I was blessed to get this epic dog because she was sent to a local VET to take OFAs and FAILED her hips.She was sold to me as a pet by her original owner because frankly i loved her so much i really didnt care what issues we were going to face my plan was not to breed her or show her she was going to be my companion.
I was recommended by many local breeders/ golden owners to Deb.
I went in she took an xray and when i walked in nervous as all get out she said "really wouldnt worry about her" showed me the xrays (by this time i had studied xrays trying to figure out what was wrong with emma and what to do) and all i could say was "this isnt my girl" i handed her the previous x rays . she put both side by side. clearly same dog one was positioned TERRIBLY and one was not. Looked like a totally different animal. it didnt take deb saying "dont worry" for me to be confident not to worry....seriously different dog.
needless to say we sent in these new Xrays to OFA. 3 vets agreed....emma was absolutely NOT dysplastic. Emma passed her OFAs. emma is 3 1/2 now. has a GCH and is seriously the most amazing mover I may be her owner but truly its what literally made me in awe of her the second i met her she moves like she is floating on air. she truly glides. There is no shot in heck she has HD. Deb Cohen may have facilitated the Xrays but 3 vets agreed Emma is not dysplastic. 
Deb is incredibly talented at getting CORRECTLY positioned Xrays. To facilitate CORRECT assessments of Dogs. No she is not a vet. Everyone i know in the dog world knows she is not a vet. but frankly to not give her respect for what she is truly gifted at and has saved a lot of dogs and owners a lot of grief and heart ache is a bit ridiculous. 
i appreciate you felt deceived. i can appreciate why you felt that way and i can appreciate wanting the best for your dog and the best assessment possible. She is there to facilitate a diagnosis. YOU are responsible for sending those Xrays into the OFA to have them assessed by 3 vets. she doesnt give you your OFA score. SHE is not your diagnostic tool she is there to facilitate fact and the interpretation is up to the OFA.
She was giving you 30 years of experience and trying to ease your mind as she saw the world. You were still responsible to send those Xrays into the OFA and im confused why you didnt. Why dont you do that get an assessment of your dogs hips...do your part in the process....Deb Cohen isnt your issue your issue is you are sad because you believe your dog has HD and you believe her not being a vet discounts her opinion. send her Xrays into the OFA. have 3 board certified vets make the call. at that point you will know one way or another. Bashing deb cohen is probably not a good expenditure of your time as Deb Cohen is known as a person who properly positions dogs hips to be properly diagnosed by OFA. You did one part of the equation and not the other.
I am very sorry you are going through this, trust me i get it. Emma is my everything i knew she was mine the second i met her (before i knew she had been improperly diagnosed with HD) and the turmoil i felt going through figuring out what her future would hold was awful. it truly is heart wrenching and stressful and something i wouldnt wish on anyone. But its not deb cohen's fault because she was trying to put your mind at ease from her 30+ years of experience. Submit your xrays to the OFA get IMPARTIAL opinions on your dog by THREE board certified Vets. Like everyone else does who goes to Deb Cohen....


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## laurenC (Sep 20, 2017)

Also, I am the most against Golden Meadows as it comes....I live near golden meadows.... she was the only person everyone i asked told me to go to... any good resource is worth the drive....the breeders as in more than 2 (VERY VERY VERY well respected breeders who live 2-5 hours from Newport) all said go to Deb Cohen. Lumping her in with Golden Meadows because you met someone who owned a golden meadows dog there is a bit much. I would sincerely recommend what the person above did and contemplate removing this until you have a moment to reflect. after a few hours you cant edit what you have said and frankly i understand the very heavy subject matter and the emotion involved i just dont think you are pointing your anger in the right direction here.
on another note Lauren Lavitt is amazing and handled emma when her handler janice had too many dogs going into breed at once. Such an amazing handler and human.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

laurenC said:


> Okay, I appreciate your conforming to the letter of the law (truly i really really do) ...but im really unsure why the fact perfectly good xrays are offending you? Deb is very very well known in the golden world for a reason...she is VERY GOOD at what she does. She knows how to take proper films and has prevented ALOT OF MAJOR PROBLEMS.
> My bitch emma is a great example. I was blessed to get this epic dog because she was sent to a local VET to take OFAs and FAILED her hips.She was sold to me as a pet by her original owner because frankly i loved her so much i really didnt care what issues we were going to face my plan was not to breed her or show her she was going to be my companion.
> I was recommended by many local breeders/ golden owners to Deb.
> I went in she took an xray and when i walked in nervous as all get out she said "really wouldnt worry about her" showed me the xrays (by this time i had studied xrays trying to figure out what was wrong with emma and what to do) and all i could say was "this isnt my girl" i handed her the previous x rays . she put both side by side. clearly same dog one was positioned TERRIBLY and one was not. Looked like a totally different animal. it didnt take deb saying "dont worry" for me to be confident not to worry....seriously different dog.
> ...


Again! The issue isn’t the xrays, I earlier stated my vet said they looked fine. No issue there. What I take great issue with is the fact she was giving us medical diagnosis. Its beyond her scope of practice. Period. Not 
anything else. She told me my dog doesn’t have hip dysplasia, and he does. OFA only accepts images from vet’s. She isn’t there to facilitate anything other than doing the x-rays. She shares her findings with the vet, who should have consulted with us. Why wasn’t he there? Why is she making any observations without vet input? And please don’t tell me how I feel....I was elated when Deb told us that Hammy didn’t have HD. Our vet asked to see the images....she had them sent out to radiologists, one from Davis vet school. Based on their examinations of Deb’s xrays, Hammy has HD. Wait, I was just told by THE EXPERT in OFA hips that he didn’t have it. What in the world was going on? Who do I believe, a team of radiologists and my vet, or a vet t tech? I understand positioning is everything. Yes, she got better positioning than our vet. Again, we got same diagnosis. 

HD is a risk in our beloved Goldies....All of the best clearances don’t guarantee pup won’t get it. I get it. She told us even if Hammy came back mild in hips from OFA, he doesn’t have hip dysplasia! 

Hammy’s xrays have been submitted by our vet to OFA, his next set from Penn Hip will also be submitted. I don’t know if Deb actually filed ours wih OFA as another Yelper said hers was never submitted but she told my husband she would only be submitting one image.

I wouldn’t trust anyone alone with any animal that is giving diagnosis....you know that pesky little thing called the law which is there for a very good reason. How does she get such perfect positioning one has to wonder...bends the rules with dispensing diagnosis, what else does she do? What other corners does she cut?


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## laurenC (Sep 20, 2017)

I understand YOUR issue. I have read YOUR issue. I am telling you YOU DIDNT DO YOUR RESEARCH and youre blaming others. Which is why everyone isnt giving you the response you want. Anyone who lives around here knows shes not a vet. anyone who has done any research or is in the dog world knows shes not a vet. shes a great resource we send the rads into OFA for diagnosis (and yes they accept her XRays and have for 3+ decades..... )
Send yours into OFA. go from there. Yes. they accepted Emmas from Deb just like 40k other dogs as she pointed out. To imply the OFA wont accept her XRays by saying the OFA only accepts Rads from a vet is not only incorrect but leads me to believe you really dont know what you are talking about at all which is killing your credibility in general. Be informed. understand who you are seeing do your research form your own opinions. Personal responsibility and accountability is not huge in this society right now and thats a true shame. When you asked she told you EXACTLY WHAT SHE WAS. You didnt do research and implied and apparently thats HER FAULT? You even blamed the breeder for misleading you and threw her under the bus by offering to show us your breeders texts about Deb. Throwing your breeder and deb under the boss i can promise you will get you knowhere and certainly will not help your dog. And sincerely as someone who has done this for that many decades i treasure her opinion and appreciate it for what it is an opinion NOT by a vet because i know who i am seeing when i take my dog anywhere . ive done the research. send your OFAs in with the rads from Deb. Let this go as all you are proving is you havent researched someone you are taking your dog to....


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

You are assuming facts not in evidence. I never asked her what her opinion was. She offered it. You told me I had to submit OFA. Wrong, OFA won’t accept from owners. Yes, ofa will accept application/radiograph but digital images have to come from vet. “Owners may mail traditional radiographs and the accompanying application, however, digital images MUST be sent directly from the attending veterinarian. This is to ensure proper identification requirements in the digital film emulsion, and to ensure the integrity of the image itself.” Trust me, I have done my research. Goodnight.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

I never said OFA wouldn’t accept her RADS, only that she was submitting one image.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Megora said:


> Thanks!
> 
> They look tight enough, so I wonder if this is a positioning issue? The legs are rotated weird and pulled down - and that might be making the balls look misshapen.
> 
> ...


I agree- they do not look dysplastic, just look incorrectly positioned. Image 2 is the closest to right and in my mind, I have to rotate and move more than a mm... And positioning is everything. Everything. Everything. I'm guessing these will get Fair rating and a better positioning would get better. 
So if Ms Cohen is the best in positioning in CA I presume she did a job that allowed her to say he is not dysplastic. The positioning is everything, and even a slight change that to the novice eye looks just the same may render a better diagnosis. I wonder, if her husband had come in the room and said 'my wife is the better judge, what do you think hon?' would that have changed anything? because to say 'he is not dysplastic' is just an opinion.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Goldieluvr1 said:


> Again! The issue isn’t the xrays, I earlier stated my vet said they looked fine. No issue there. What I take great issue with is the fact she was giving us medical diagnosis. Its beyond her scope of practice. Period. Not
> anything else. She told me my dog doesn’t have hip dysplasia, and he does. OFA only accepts images from vet’s. She isn’t there to facilitate anything other than doing the x-rays. She shares her findings with the vet, who should have consulted with us. Why wasn’t he there? Why is she making any observations without vet input? And please don’t tell me how I feel....I was elated when Deb told us that Hammy didn’t have HD. Our vet asked to see the images....she had them sent out to radiologists, one from Davis vet school. Based on their examinations of Deb’s xrays, Hammy has HD. Wait, I was just told by THE EXPERT in OFA hips that he didn’t have it. What in the world was going on? Who do I believe, a team of radiologists and my vet, or a vet t tech? I understand positioning is everything. Yes, she got better positioning than our vet. Again, we got same diagnosis.
> 
> HD is a risk in our beloved Goldies....All of the best clearances don’t guarantee pup won’t get it. I get it. She told us even if Hammy came back mild in hips from OFA, he doesn’t have hip dysplasia!
> ...


OFA only accepts images from practices. A vet has to sign the application. I'm sure that was done. What I don't understand is why you are so upset that a comforting comment was given to you.... everyone knows that the on-the-spot judgement may or may not agree w OFAs three specialists. No one would hold anyone to the on-the-spot guess. 
PH is not necessarily more reliable. 
Earlier I heard you suspect Ms Cohen's ability to do films without sedation. My vet in Atlanta never sedated unless the dog was out of control. Here, in FL, my vet always sedates. But believe me, sedation or not, if I had someone to see who did as many OFA films as Ms Cohen apparently does (I do not know her) I would drive 3 hours to use them. I see all kinds of dogs at the vet's and know the best positioner for OFA is going to have clients I would not approve of but that's not my place. The best repro in Atlanta area has a ton of doodle clients. Not my business. The whole tone of the posts are intent to pay back for being deceived and protect others... but imo, if she is the best, her opinion isn't going to be hurting others. Or your dog, either, if she doesn't think he looks dysplastic and you take that as gospel. He's symptomatic so something is wrong...but it doesn't have to be dysplasia. And to imply she is doing something unethical by using her skill to position correctly, that is just plain wrong of you. I can imagine you saying, 'what do you think' and her offering an opinion. Her opinion isn't any more than that- it's an opinion.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Goldieluvr1 said:


> How does she achieve this perfect position that everyone raves about in dogs that aren’t sedated/anesthesetized. My vet said putting dogs in those positions without even a sedative is dangerous because they could be hurt.


Can I say something here?

Your vet possibly was talking about Penn Hip. 

With Penn Hip they are pulling the hips as far out of the socket as they will go. This would be uncomfortable and painful for the dog - and why they have to be sedated.

The earliest quibbles that I heard about PH ages ago when people started doing them was the fear they could injure good hips. I still am not completely convinced that would not happen....? 

Regular OFA's - the positioning might be painful for a dog with hip dysplasia and related arthritis causing them to tense up and resist those positions - and this is why dogs like that are sedated, to allow the vet to get the positioning they need for OFA's. 

Other dogs might be too anxious and stressed about the positioning - and again would need to be sedated. 

With a prior dog he resisted being put in the correct position for OFA's. The xrays were AWFUL. Pelvis was hitched and you could see he was kicking at a tech when they were done. 

For this reason, they were redone with light sedation. They still were dysplastic - but not as awful as they appeared on the xrays where he was wriggling all over the place.

Might add - those xrays were done with close to OFA positioning couple times later in his life - no sedation due to him mellowing with age and no changes to his hips. 

My Bertie had xrays done without sedation - and they could have been excellent, based on how tight and clean the positioning. There was no need to sedate him, although I'd given the vet permission to do so if necessary. 

Most people go to the vet I did - primarily because she does perfect xrays - and she does not need to sedate the dogs to get them.

I think the insinuation here is that she didn't actually do your dog's xrays, but showed you xrays for a different dog because they looked completely different from the ones done by your vet. 

And that's not fair. Positioning makes a huge difference! With my Jacks (mentioned above), the initial xrays done with his pelvis hitched to the side and him kicking and fighting the techs? They looked like they should have been graded as moderate. They just were ugly. 

The redos still showed the same laxity in the hips, but the balls/necks looked relatively normal - the laxity (and probably shallow sockets) were the reason why he got a mild grade. They looked like they came from a different dog than the first.


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## Barlosh (Sep 1, 2018)

From my own experience having had a malamute that had bilateral hip replacements it's not the title of the person diagnosing it's the experience. A brilliant vet that only takes the occasional radiograph may not do as good a job as someone that takes them every day. 
My dogs surgeon is a professor of orthopaedics and he has said primary care vets do not know what they are doing a lot of times where orthopaedic x rays are concerned, so I personally would rather a very experienced person took those pics than someone who may specialise in other fields. 
In our hospitals in the UK the consultant surgeon doesn't take your x rays pre op, a radiologist does and passes the info on - that way you get the best of both worlds. 
I know you feel cheated but it seems you got the wrong end of the stick and Deb wasn't covering up anything. Also surely if her practices were illegal she wouldn't have been doing this for so many Years. 
I will say this though - if a dog has definite severe hip displacia you cannot mistake it, even without x rays, and if it's mild the dog may not have a problem during its lifetime at all. Hopefully if your dog does have HD it's just a mild case and quality of life won't be affected.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Goldieluvr1 said:


> Why would I want to edit my posts? I appreciate the advice, and I didn’t want people to just agree with me. I expected differing opinions...what I was surprised about was the glossing over at what Deb did as if it was no big deal. (...)
> 
> There is a clear established pattern of behavior which is another reason why I went public with this. I didn’t post about this for almost four days after it happened. I gathered evidence, did research into laws here in California regarding what registered vet techs are allowed to do. I researched her vet tech license to determine if she has specialty as vet technician radiologist (she doesn’t). So yes, there is tremendous emotion here, but I don’t let that dictate something as serious as this is (at least to me), especially when it comes to someone’s reputation.
> 
> The look on her face when my husband told her he was a doctor after we asked what vet school she went to...well, I can’t speak for her, but her face fell. She immediately got defensive and told us that “vets often measure to the millimeter to determine if a dog has hip dysplasia but I can tell by eyeballing it.” Oh, really?! We made NO complaints/judgements in the office because I didn’t know what the law was...I was fairly certain I knew, but needed to confirm it. (...)



I'm sorry your dog has problems. It's tough to watch a dog suffer, and I hope you get the answers you want.
However, I agree with LJack's earlier comment about editing your posts and I'm sorry you missed the window of opportunity to do that. You checked the laws in California about what vet techs are allowed to do, but you might now want to check the libel laws as well. So far in this thread, you've explicitly called Ms. Cohen a fake and a fraud: those are the words you used. You've accused her of misrepresenting her position. You've insinuated that she might use unethical practices to position dogs for x-rays. You've suggested that she's incompetent (see your above sarcastic comment "oh, really"). And so on. 

I understand that you're upset. But IMHO you still need to be careful about going overboard with insinuations and insults. Once you've written something on the Internet, it's out there for perpetuity. There's a fine line between what's legally acceptable and what isn't, and you don't want to find yourself on the wrong side of it.
Best of luck


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Let me be very, very clear. The xrays AREN'T the issue. The xrays she took were great, according to our vet. The xrays were of our dog. The issue became when she said Hammy didn't have HD and only a vet is allowed to make diagnosis/prognosis. Ending it here.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Not that you want another opinion from a vet tech but I've seen some gnarly x-rays and understood why there was pain and why surgery was discussed. These x-rays, no matter who took them look good. Even if OFA declares failed hips these x-rays don't show a major hip problem that would explain the pain you expressed.
Maybe it would be more productive to redirect your energy to helping your dog be more comfortable. Have you thought about supplements like glucosamine? Maybe do some water therapy? Perhaps some laser therapy or acupuncture? 
Or is it more important for you to be right?


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

It also sounds as though other patients of hers/her husband's have stated in yelp reviews that Deb had explained what she saw and given her opinion, and "what she thought OFA would score them". She could have simply stated that in her opinion your dog did not have dysplasia, and not meant this as a definitive diagnosis. I am interested to see what OFA scores your dog based on the new radiographs.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Hammy is taking Cosequin DX, as many others have recommended on the forum, and approved by our vet. We just started that last week, and perhaps it's just me wanting to believe he isn't in as much pain, but does appear to have a little bit of spring back in his step. As any furr parent knows, it stinks that they can't tell us if it hurts. 

Our vet has recommended we assess acupuncture after his Penn-Hipp and ortho consultations. Our 15-year-old Labbie as I believe I referenced in this thread, or perhaps another, got weekly massages here at the house after his TPLO surgery. His pet masseuse, Pam Holt of Budda Dog's got my boy to 15. She works with our other rescue dog, Cookie, who is a little nervous nellie. We will of course assess and discuss if massage therapy would also benefit Hammy after the diagnosis. 

His weight is in check, around 75 pounds. Do you have any other recommendations? Do you know anything about fish oils?


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Thank you for your input and background on Penn-Hipp. Points taken. 

Anyone have information/feedback/experience at VCA West Los Angeles Animal Hospital. Dr. Nicole Buote, is doing Hammy's Penn-Hipp. Note, she isn't our orthopedic consult, that is going to be with Dr. Kirk Wendelburg https://asgvets.com/doctors/kirk-wendelburg/.

Nicole Buote, Veterinary Specialist - Surgery
DVM, DACVS Surgery
Dr. Nicole Buote has been on staff at VCA West Los Angeles since 2010 and was named Chief of Surgery in 2014. She obtained her doctorate of veterinary medicine from Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine in 2004. She completed a one year rotating internship at Angell Animal Medical Center in Boston, Massachusetts and then pursued a specialty surgical internship at the Dallas Veterinary Surgical Center in Texas in 2006. In 2009 she completed her surgical residency from The Animal Medical Center in New York and was awarded Diplomate status in the American College of Veterinary Surgeons in 2010.

Dr. Buote practices soft tissue, orthopedics and neurosurgery but her special interests are in advanced wound repair, oncologic reconstructive surgery, minimally invasive procedures including laparoscopy, thoracoscopy, and arthroscopy and interventional radiology techniques such as tracheal, ureteral, and urethral stenting. Dr. Buote also has a strong interest in clinical research and has published in textbooks and scientific journals the field of small animal surgery, on topics including liver and gallbladder disease, cruciate (knee) stabilization, Vacuum-assisted closure for septic abdomens, trauma, laparoscopy and advanced wound management. Dr. Buote also enjoys lecturing and teaching at national conferences.

Dr. Buote's human family includes her husband, Dr. Nathan Peterson, the head of the Critical Care Department at VCA West LA, and her sons William and Nicholas. Her four-legged family consists of 2 cats named Kismet, and Number 3. During her spare time, she enjoys photography and travelling.


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## sophieanne (Feb 4, 2014)

Opinion only - I think everyone here should take a time out. I've read this thread from start to finish and I'm kind of shocked. Goldielovr1 and her husband are medical professionals..they understand and follow ethics. Her concern is not about the X-rays themselves but about "Deb" passing herself off as something she's not. Deb's OPINION may or may not be right, the problem is, California law says she is not allowed to be giving a diagnosis. That's the whole issue here, nothing more. She has the right to be upset about that. She's sending the xrays from Deb and from her vet for review, so anyone who says she should be focusing her attention on helping her dog, instead of this thread, I believe owes her any apology. I believe she is doing what needs to be done but her concern about being given a diagnosis from a non-Vet is legitimate and we should respect that. When my dog went to the emergency vet due to kidney issues a doctor did an ultrasound.The doctor had no real ultrasound training but felt qualified to give an opinion. The opinion was totally different from the Radiologist. We were in a bad situation at the time and let the vet do the reading - I would never allow that again and thank goodness we didn't do any treatment based on what the vet read (because it was not accurate). Would you like it if you took your pet to a vet to treat an injury or get an opinion on a situation and the vet assistant gave an opinion that may or may not be right, and passed themself off as a qualified Vet?
All of the comments about the xrays are valid but irrelevant, to what the poster seemed to want. All the poster seemed to want was validation that an unqualified person gave an opinion instead of the vet (regardless of whether it was right or not). I think she's totally in the right. Because of her and her husband's background they have the right to expect the same ethical treatment by the person treating their dog as they would give to any patient they saw. All that was required was validation and then perhaps comments/opinions on why you felt that "Deb" or "whoever" is the best, or doing what is right. Sometimes I think we all read and jump to responses before we really understand what's being said to us. Again, only an opinion.
In any event, I hope Goldielovr1 gets the professional answer she needs and gets her dog any treatment needed (if it is needed).


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I know that fish oils helps with the skin but you have to be careful to keep the omega 3 & 6 in balance or you create a whole different problem. Vit E helps with circulation which can help and vit C and zinc help with the immune system if you think he needs it. 

Just in case I missed something in all this debate... you assumed he was in pain because of the hips? or you had the hips done because he was in pain?

Water therapy is a really good option. Even people with polio (neurologic issue) used swimming to keep the joints moving without stress, which in turned relieved pain as well as helped gain muscle strength to help in support of the hip joints. Something to consider.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

This whole thread is mind boggling.... yikes!!


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Water therapy is indeed among the best things we can do for him. We are blessed to have a swimming pool. Had doggy stairs put in at all sides when had it built to encourage them to not jump from the sides. Another sign he could have HD....he has never, ever used his back legs when swimming. Only his front legs. He loves to swim, but always looks as if he is drowning. 

There is a wonderful water therapy service for rehabbing dogs we will use when appropriate for Hammy. We did it for our Lab after TPLO surgery (post-four months, not right away!).


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Has he been adjusted by a chiropractor? If not, I would make an appointment to do that first.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Goldieluvr1 said:


> Water therapy is indeed among the best things we can do for him. We are blessed to have a swimming pool. Had doggy stairs put in at all sides when had it built to encourage them to not jump from the sides. Another sign he could have HD....he has never, ever used his back legs when swimming. Only his front legs. He loves to swim, but always looks as if he is drowning.
> 
> There is a wonderful water therapy service for rehabbing dogs we will use when appropriate for Hammy. We did it for our Lab after TPLO surgery (post-four months, not right away!).



Have you tried to put a life jacket on him?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Kelli aren't you happy this isn't your puppy person you have to talk off the ledge!?!?!!? OMGGGGGGGGGG
and please stop saying "furr parent" - you're a "DOG OWNER"


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Oh, I didn't mean to say he is drowning! Just looks that way...and yes, we did try the life jacket. He HATED it. Also, we have the pool covered at all times when not using. He isn't allowed in the pool without supervision.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

Will ask vet about that!


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

I just came away from this thread wishing there was a "Deb" near me that took beautiful xrays haha! I'd happily have an experienced tech give me an opinion of what she thought they'd come back as over an inexperienced vet. 

Also, OP some dogs are awful swimmers. That is not a sign I've ever heard associated with hip issues (unlike bunny hopping which is frequently associated with hip issues). 

I also feel like you are getting caught up on her only sending in one shot instead of three? My understanding is that it is how it's usually done, you want to send in the shot with the best positioning. Others can correct me, but you don't normally send in multiple xrays do you?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Goldieluvr1 said:


> Water therapy is indeed among the best things we can do for him. We are blessed to have a swimming pool. Had doggy stairs put in at all sides when had it built to encourage them to not jump from the sides. Another sign he could have HD....he has never, ever used his back legs when swimming. Only his front legs. He loves to swim, but always looks as if he is drowning.
> 
> There is a wonderful water therapy service for rehabbing dogs we will use when appropriate for Hammy. We did it for our Lab after TPLO surgery (post-four months, not right away!).





myluckypenny said:


> I just came away from this thread wishing there was a "Deb" near me that took beautiful xrays haha! I'd happily have an experienced tech give me an opinion of what she thought they'd come back as over an inexperienced vet.
> 
> Also, OP some dogs are awful swimmers. That is not a sign I've ever heard associated with hip issues (unlike bunny hopping which is frequently associated with hip issues).
> 
> I also feel like you are getting caught up on her only sending in one shot instead of three? My understanding is that it is how it's usually done, you want to send in the shot with the best positioning. Others can correct me, but you don't normally send in multiple xrays do you?


Correct. I have a vet tech do all my xrays as she is experienced and I trust her. She has been right with every dog that I have brought to her.

Yes, they send in one digital of hips and then the elbows. I have never known them to send in multiple shots.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Goldieluvr1 said:


> Oh, I didn't mean to say he is drowning! Just looks that way...and yes, we did try the life jacket. He HATED it. Also, we have the pool covered at all times when not using. He isn't allowed in the pool without supervision.


I didn't mean to say he was drowning. But, a life jack will help buoyancy him to where he should use his back legs more.


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## Goldieluvr1 (May 2, 2014)

I would think for the OFA to make best determination, always best to have ALL possible information. Not just the best image out of three picked by anyone. Which is why we also really like about PennHipp. All images submitted. Just my personal preference. 

If the mod wants to close this thread, fine with me!


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