# We are sending our pup to a pro



## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

How long will he be gone?


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Debles said:


> How long will he be gone?


We will see. I might get a call saying the dog isn't worth the effort and he will be home in a month. Probably around 4 months, though, given where we are and where we want the pro to get him. The biggest variable is how long it takes for force fetch. Some dogs breeze right through and some take a lot longer.

If the pro thinks he is a good FT prospect we may leave him on the truck longer.

In about two weeks, I should have a better sense.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

WOW !!!! I don't think I could part with mine.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

WOW, I would be heartsick without my boys.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

My ex and I did that with the first of my dogs he picked to start bird hunting with, around 1990 or so. He wanted an upland dog, and we found a trainer near the Twin Cities. She did really well-she was a better hunting dog than she was a conformation dog  and the trainer was well suited to her temperament. Very old fashioned girl, with an old pedigree even then.

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=293291

I think she was gone for about 4 months, and think we paid $300-$400 per month, not including birds. We drove over on Sundays so my ex could learn to handle her. I did miss her but the result was a terrific bond with my ex and the opportunity to spend a ton of time together after work and on weekends, and long trips to Iowa and South Dakota.

After that, he actually worked on training his own dogs, and we did find a field oriented person for him to train with-Sue Kiefer, who is still involved in tests and trials. He did a good job training and ended up with some very nice hunting dogs. We tried some hunt tests but since my ex wasn't interested in ducks, that didn't go so well


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I'm really interested in the training of dogs for hunting and retrieving. Mine are both probably too old to train now, but in the future I'll give it serious consideration. Dogs can be sent away for training here in the UK too. I think its a good idea, as in the right environment the dog is much more likely to succeed.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Wow... that's a big decision. Congrats and good luck. Keep us posted on how it goes.

Randy


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## z24pride (May 13, 2008)

We almost did the same thing, but the thought of Boone being gone for 4 months was too much...lol..
But then i found a highly respected dog trainer(And Hunting Trials Judge) who works with you to handle / train your dog...the decision was an easy one...Boone is coming along very well, only 2 sessions in...


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## otis spunkmeyer (Jan 23, 2009)

*Sending 'em off to the pro*

So where are you located adn who are your prospects (by name)?
Lee


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Dropped our pup off yesterday. My wife had to go out of town so she didn't come, which is probably good since she would be crying. It was sad, but checked apparently he has settled in well.

The pro said we could come up to visit fairly soon--after a week or so when he gets used to the new routine. There won't be much we can do with our pup, but we can run some of his other dogs to get in sync with his training. This would be particularly good for my wife, who has never done this. Working with a more experienced dog and throwing some marks will be good for her.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If my husband sent my dog away for 4 months he'd be my ex- too!




Tahnee GR said:


> My ex and I did that with the first of my dogs he picked to start bird hunting with, around 1990 or so.
> I think she was gone for about 4 months, and think we paid $300-$400 per month, not including birds. )


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Checked with the pro. Our pup has settled in fine. He has a GRF across the hall from him, which he likes. He likes all dogs, but he really has always liked older goldens.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Tatnall said:


> My wife and I decided that we were going to send our pup to a pro to get him through the basics (in Lardy terminology, that is through swim-by). I thought it might be useful for folks here to outline some of our thinking in making this decision and why we went with the pro we chose...Water is also the issue...In choosing the pro, we had several good choices...We were looking for a) a pro close enough that we could go up and work with the dog while he was on the truck and train with the pro later; b) a pro who knew goldens and how they are different from labs--not just one who washed a dog out if it didn't progress at his rigid schedule; c) a pro that generally followed a program with which we were familiar; d) a pro with good training and kennel facilities; and e) a pro who was well respected by folks we know...After talking, we made appointments to visit several. We went out when they were training to watch them train, see the dogs on their truck and watch how they interacted with the dogs and how the dogs attitudes were...We narrowed it down to two and re-visited these two. They were both excellent, met all criteria, etc. At the end of the day we selected the one who runs both HT and FTs because we think the dog has the potential to do both, even though I have always been just a HT guy...Hopefully it will work out. It will be sad to drop the little guy off and not have him around, but I think it will be the best and we will start going up to work with him in a couple of weeks (assuming he does not wash out before then).


That's a very healthy attitude. It sounds like you're willing to do what's best for your pup.

Basics (Formal obedience through Swim-by) is normally a 4-6 month course of work - usually closer to 6. As the late Rex Carr put it when someone in the group asked _"Rex, how long should Basics normally take?"_ He replied, _"About 6 months. If it takes much less than that I become suspect of the quality of the training. If it takes much longer, I become suspect of the dog."_

Best of luck with your pup.

EvanG


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

EvanG said:


> That's a very healthy attitude. It sounds like you're willing to do what's best for your pup.
> 
> Basics (Formal obedience through Swim-by) is normally a 4-6 month course of work - usually closer to 6. As the late Rex Carr put it when someone in the group asked _"Rex, how long should Basics normally take?"_ He replied, _"About 6 months. If it takes much less than that I become suspect of the quality of the training. If it takes much longer, I become suspect of the dog."_
> 
> ...


 
If it takes much longer I continue to suspect the quality of the trainer - a good one would certainly consult with the owner and provide an honest assessment - some, however, keep milking the (cash) cow.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> If it takes much longer I continue to suspect the quality of the trainer - a good one would certainly consult with the owner and provide an honest assessment - some, however, keep milking the (cash) cow.


That's true enough of some unsrcupulous pros. But Rex was speaking of trainers in general as pertains to duration of Basics as a basline.

Rex Carr was unique in many ways. One very special one was that he wasn't the kind to whom you sent your dog, and he would train and campaign it for you. Sure he took many in for training. But the thing he was best known for is training people to do their own training and handling, a great many of whom did just that and titled them FC-AFC-NFC-NAFC. Rex did not ever participate in that sort of low class trade. His waiting list was far too long, and his personal standards far too high.

As a pro, I required the same of myself. Like Rex, I usually had a waiting list of dogs to take in. No need to "milk" anyone when you're good at what you do.

EvanG


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

EvanG said:


> No need to "milk" anyone when you're good at what you do.
> 
> EvanG


:appl:I agree 100%. Some of the best trainers (and breeders, as well) do not even have to advertise. Their reputations and word of mouth referrals keep them busy.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

EvanG said:


> As the late Rex Carr put it when someone in the group asked _"Rex, how long should Basics normally take?"_ He replied, _"About 6 months. If it takes much less than that I become suspect of the quality of the training. If it takes much longer, I become suspect of the dog."_


A great quote. I love Rex-isms--he really had a way with words. You are very lucky to have had the opportunity to learn from him. Many trainers are very gifted with animals but don't do as well with people. Rex obviously didn't have that problem. Evan and Mike Lardy are also folks who communicate well with both species.

The first part of the quote is very telling. I obviously do not have your experience, but in my few turns around the block, many problems that crop up come from moving too quickly through the basics, especially FF. Anxious to get to the more fun stuff, trainers declare the dog 'done' and move on or even skip something they decide they don't really need. The problems show up later, but can often be attributed to not finishing an early step.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Tatnall said:


> I obviously do not have your experience, but in my few turns around the block, many problems that crop up come from moving too quickly through the basics, especially FF. Anxious to get to the more fun stuff, trainers declare the dog 'done' and move on or even skip something they decide they don't really need. The problems show up later, but can often be attributed to not finishing an early step.


Someone should pass this out in the form of a tatoo for the foreheads of new trainers! 

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

and boarding kennels 



Pointgold said:


> :appl:I agree 100%. Some of the best trainers (and breeders, as well) do not even have to advertise. Their reputations and word of mouth referrals keep them busy.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Tatnall said:


> If the pro thinks he is a good FT prospect we may leave him on the truck longer.
> 
> In about two weeks, I should have a better sense.


Any updates from your pro?

EvanG


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

EvanG said:


> Any updates from your pro?
> 
> EvanG


Yes. He has settled in to the kennel life well. The pro reports that he is doing well on formal obedience and is extremely outgoing and confident in his work and kennel life.

The confidence part is really good to hear. As an 8 week old pup, he had a run in with a group of kids on skateboards, which scared him to death and made him very spooky. For a while he wouldn't even walk around the block without hearing something that scared him and sent him heading for home. Trucks, loud cars, planes and (especially) helicopters just freaked him out.

Because of this we spent a lot of time on socialization and less on puppy obedience than one typically would. Things like introduction to gunfire, etc., were delayed and almost everything we did was to try to build his confidence. We waited until we felt this problem was behind us before sending him away (we even recruited some kids on skateboards to help), but I was worried that the change in routine might cause some regression and talked to the pro at length about it before selecting him and again before leaving him. So, I am very glad to hear from the pro that not only has this not been an issue but that the pro can't imagine him as a spooky little pup.

Oh, he also has a GR in the kennel next to him, so he gets to talk to one of his own instead of nothing but black dogs 

I am heading up this weekend to throw birds and get the chance to visit, so I will update again after I see him.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

That's great!


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm thinking about sending mine off to a pro, too. 
My kids that is. 
We know we've gotten them off to a slow start, but we think that the right environment can help them reach their full potential. 
Basic obedience. 
Force Fetch. 
Introduction to Gunfire (Wait, we did that already...)










But seriously, this is cool and it's fun to live vicariously through your adventure.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

An update:

Pup is doing well. He is still confident and outgoing, which is good. He has started hold. This pro uses a table, while I have always done this on the ground. No big deal, but I didn't think to put him up on a table before sending him away (we tried to introduce him to pro-type things, even putting him in a hole in a friends trailer). No problem. From the first day, the pro had him up on the table just playing so he got used to it in a fun way long before he was up there for work.

Unfortunately, he won't be getting marks until FF is done, since he hasn't been good about bringing birds back. This is not a big deal. Many pros don't give dogs marks at all during this process, since you don't want to set up an opportunity for the dog to refuse. Others, like this pro, see how the dog reacts. Mine wants to keep the bird, so we deal with that later.

He still gets fun things to break up the grind of the process.

Collar conditioning will come after FF. This is common, although it is an area where folks do things differently. Some do it early--even before FF--some in the FF process and some after. With Evan's program, if I understand correctly (I am no expert, but have read some of his work and have several DVDs) the whole process is more integrated. It is not as much two distinct steps but part of the whole 'formal advancement'.

That is the latest. More to come. My wife is traveling this weekend, but she said on the way to the airport that she wanted to spend Valentine's Day by going to visit and bringing him a 'care package' after a friend who keeps dogs on a FT pros truck mentioned to her that they did this for holidays. I told her it wouldn't be fair if she didn't bring enough for everyone, so her plan is to descend upon the kennel with treats for all the dogs. It will be fun to see how this plays out


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Tatnall said:


> Collar conditioning will come after FF. This is common, although it is an area where folks do things differently. Some do it early--even before FF--some in the FF process and some after. *With Evan's program*, if I understand correctly (I am no expert, but have read some of his work and have several DVDs) *the whole process is more integrated*. It is not as much two distinct steps but part of the whole 'formal advancement'.


You are correct. What I've sought to construct is a more seamless, sequential progression for skill advancement, which makes it easier for dogs to learn and assimilate new information. Because of this sequential approach, dogs find each new step to be more like a newer version of what they already know, rather than having each new step be a collision with something markedly new, time after time.

It also helps the trainer learn the material more easily.









EvanG


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Wow. I couldn't be without my dog for one day let alone a few months!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Spoke to our pro yesterday. The pup is doing well. He has started with collar conditioning and is still going through hold, but now has moved on to moving around on the ground with hold. That will progress until he is going through his whole OB process while holding things in his mouth.

He is still outgoing and confident. Interesting talking to the pro about CC. He had originally decided to wait until after FF. Since I got the chance to talk in more detail, I got more of the reasons and why he has changed his mind. Basically the pup was so high energy, he didn't really feel like he was focused enough to understand the pressure and respond to it appropriately. He said that last week he really settled down and began to show signs of truly understanding what he is supposed to do, so he felt that it was okay to introduce the pressure. Apparently he was quite the wild man for a while but seems now to have figured things out.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Good News. Keep it coming!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Our baby is doing well at camp. We got a chance to visit. It was an off day for him, since he isn't getting marks until FF is complete  but the upside was that our pro allowed us to play with him. He felt it was good to let him spend some time just being a dog with his parents. He obviously gets along great with the pro and likes him, which is good. We also brought him and all the dogs on the truck a care package of fancy dog treats.

We had not seen him in almost a month (he will have been gone a month this weekend). He hasn't grown much but he has definitely filled out--a little less puppy than before. 

He should be done with fetch in a couple of days and move on to simple casting drills and pile work. He will also get marks again, which I know he will like and it will also make it more fun to go visit, since we will be able to run the dog.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Glad your dog is doing well.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Well, it sounds like the little guy is done with FF. He has been getting lots of short and handler thrown marks, just to make sure he can put together the concept of fetch/hold and delivery outside of the yard. So far, all is going according to plan. Next week, they will tune him up with walking singles and singles off multiple guns with bird in mouth. If that goes well (i.e., nothing that indicates that he doesn't understand that he is supposed to fetch and hold or how to respond to pressure), it is on to pile work.

Tomorrow, he will have been gone five weeks. We miss him a lot, but it is good to hear he is progressing well. His attitude is great and he seems very happy and content.


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## TY 4 (Feb 28, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> We will see. I might get a call saying the dog isn't worth the effort and he will be home in a month. Probably around 4 months, though, given where we are and where we want the pro to get him. The biggest variable is how long it takes for force fetch. Some dogs breeze right through and some take a lot longer.
> 
> If the pro thinks he is a good FT prospect we may leave him on the truck longer.


 Who is the Pro?


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Our little guy has gotten into pile work and is doing well. At first, apparently, there were issues once he got to the pile playing around a little instead of picking up a bumper and coming right back. He went out well, but he is a playful and somewhat mischievous guy and wasn't really catching on that this is not just a game for his amusement. Our pro took a detour for a while and did some other bumper and handling drills to iron things out and now he is doing well.

Back to doing marks, he is doing well. He is doing bird in mouth singles off multiple guns to around 150 yards on land right now and doing very well. No issues there, but he was always very focused on marks--that was a game he was serious about.

I am very pleased with our pro's approach. He has done well with a guy that has potential but is somewhat of a character and, like many goldens, perhaps doesn't mature as quickly.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Glad your pup is progressing so nicely. Will he be a hunt test pup or a derby pup- any very specific goals?

Kim Trafton, Paul Kartes, and June Cawood are three trainers we consider for Tango. Any thoughts?


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Glad your pup is progressing so nicely. Will he be a hunt test pup or a derby pup- any very specific goals?
> 
> Kim Trafton, Paul Kartes, and June Cawood are three trainers we consider for Tango. Any thoughts?


The goals are not specific as far as events go. I want him to be a good member of the family, companion hunter and just dog. As far as field games, I will definitely run him in hunt tests. Assuming he is healthy, I don't think MH should be a problem from what I have seen so far--I have done it with far less talented dogs. Depending on how things go, I would like to step up and run some FTs. I have run a Q only in the past, but with a dog for whom the distances were a huge stretch. If things go well, we will definitely try a derby and see where it takes us.

As for trainers, the only one I have ever met on your list is Kim Trafton (and then only once), although I have also heard lots of good things. I have heard of Paul Kartes--he seems to be held in high regard, especially with the Toller folks. But I am not an expert on trainers. Other than ones I have trained with in various areas I have lived or seen at tests, I really don't know much about many other than the big names, although after many years, all of the names sound familiar.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Tatnall said:


> Depending on how things go, I would like to step up and run some FTs. I have run a Q only in the past, but with a dog for whom the distances were a huge stretch. If things go well, we will definitely try a derby and see where it takes us.


Aim High! You'll learn more and the dog will learn more. Derbies are fun and it is sooo nice to pick up that first ribbon in such a competetive arena. My first was a green (JAM or Judges Award of Merit) and I couldn't have been prouder. Then I was on cloud nine when we hit a fourth place ribbon!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> Aim High! You'll learn more and the dog will learn more.


Okay, then I aim for my dog to make me one of those folks who goes around disparaging 'greenies' . Seriously, I can imagine the thrill of finishing the first FT. I remember when I got my first HT pass (and how nervous I was at my first HT), it would be exciting just to play something a little different.

We will see. I think he might be a good transition dog, but it is too early to tell if physically and mentally he will make it. If not, no biggie. In a few more years I will have a lot more time to train and campaign, so I thought that would be when I tried to play seriously


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Wow, that is expensive. Well, considering it's 4 months and I (assume) that includes room and board, maybe it isn't that bad after all.

Rusty, my first Golden, was 1 year old when I got him in 1987. He was a farm dog and wanted absolutely nothing to do with a leash.

I had to go into the hospital for a while, and was going to be laid up for a few weeks (about a month total), and since I would not be able to care for him the way I wanted, I decided it would be a great idea to board him for training.

It worked out dandy. When I got him back he was fully leash trained, and all the other basics were dead-on. I was so proud of him!

I left him with a training center in San Diego that also trained the SDPD Police Dogs. Now of course he didn't get THAT training, but they did a great job with the basic obedience stuff.

And he also got some off-leash obedience training thrown in because they had the time. He didn't finish it, and I never counted on it, but what he did learn he learned well.

I think I paid around $100 for the month, so thinking even more $600 does not sound bad for 4 months! The only other thing I had to do was supply a big bag of his Chow.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Wow, that is expensive. Well, considering it's 4 months and I (assume) that includes room and board, maybe it isn't that bad after all.


Actually, it is per month. Certainly expensive, but it does include room and board and birds. I have not had to deal with boarding a dog in a while but back in the late 90s I was traveling a fair amount and did have to board my dog for a week at a time relatively often. I figured out that it was cheaper to leave my dog with a pro I trained with sometimes than drop him off at the boarding kennel where he would get no training.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

I aint one of those folks that "disparage" greenies. Maybe in 10 years I will be there, but for now a greenie is an accomplishment.

Time to go train. See ya.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

The pup is still doing well. Our pro is very pleased with his progress and his drive.

He is getting more and more marks and doing his pile work and handling 'games'. He is still getting singles off multiple guns out to about 175 yards, but he is getting a little more "factors" thrown in, such as cover, hills and wind. So far, he is naturally very honest going out. Coming back, apparently he had a tendency to want to go visit the gunners, but a few quick sit whistles with a come-in seemed to have stopped it and he is coming back pretty much as he went out. Since things have warmed up, he is also getting water marks and doing well (nothing taxing yet, though).

I think because he was so spooky as a pup, we may have gone overboard on the socialization because he does want to say hello to everyone. Still, I am glad to hear that he is one of the friendliest and most confident dogs on the truck, since this is a guy who would not go more than 50 yards from our front door when he was very young.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Thanks for the updates!

Goldens have been doing well in Field Trials the last few weeks. Perhaps we are seeing a new wave of legends coming of age... perhaps your dog is one of them!

Please keep us posted.
Randy


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