# Wellness vs. Pro Plan???



## Lowcountry Buddy

Hello all,

We have a 10 week old GR...Got him at 7 weeks.
We started out using ProPlan puppy(what the breeder used).
I been lurking on the forum for a few weeks now and I really appreciate all the info. I've learned here!

Last week I decided to switch to Wellness puppy. I've been transferring him to it this last week.

Anyway, I'm starting to second guess myself. Is Wellness that much better, or what? Is it worth an extra $10/30#s?

Thanks for the help.


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## CStrong73

When I first got Rocket, I had it in my head that I was going to feed him a really good, premium food. I wanted to use Fromm's.

But then, when I picked him up, the breeder had him on ProPlan. Her dogs all looked healthy and in great condition. Rocket was doing well on it. So I figured, why mess with a good thing? And the Fromm's was significantly more $$ and only available at one local high-end pet shop. So I left him on PP Puppy, and then transitioned to PP All Life Stages. He's never had a tummy issue.

I can't speak on the question of whether or not Wellness is a better food.

Good luck whatever you decide!!


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## Liberty Run Goldens

We fed ProPlan for 15 years. 

We believe that they changed the recipe about five years ago. 

As a result, we switched. My wife feeds a mixture of Fromm and Acana. Maybe it's our imagination, but the dogs coats seem so more radiant now than before. 

Examine the manufacturer's recommended feeding instructions. Dogs need more Purina than Fromm. My wife demonstrated how the "Cost Per Feeding" was the same for Purina and Fromm because when you use Fromm, you don't have to feed as much per the manufacturer's own feeding instructions.


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## Thalie

I prefer Wellness over ProPlan in general. I feed the grain free formulas to my grown-up girls. I avoid foods that have glutens in them and like to have several named animals protein sources including one in "meal" form in the top 5 ingredients. 

If it were my puppy and he was doing well on the Wellness puppy food (good poops, energy, no itchies or gunky ears), I would leave him on that rather than going back to ProPlan. My personal preference would go to this Wellness formula for a Golden puppy (Wellness® Complete Health® Super5Mix® Large Breed - Puppy Health ).

However, another way of looking at it is to consider that your breeder has extensive experience feeding Proplan to her own dogs and is happy with it which also counts for something.


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## MyBentley

Lowcounty Buddy said:


> Hello all,
> 
> We have a 10 week old GR...Got him at 7 weeks.
> We started out using ProPlan puppy(what the breeder used).
> I been lurking on the forum for a few weeks now and I really appreciate all the info. I've learned here!
> 
> Last week I decided to switch to Wellness puppy. I've been transferring him to it this last week.
> 
> Anyway, I'm starting to second guess myself. *Is Wellness that much better, or what? Is it worth an extra $10/30#s?*
> 
> Thanks for the help.


Yes, absolutely, Wellness is worth an extra $10 (as long as your dog does well on it.)

Wellness does not rely on plant protein boosters like corn gluten; but uses specific meat meals like "chicken meal". Anytime you see corn gluten or something like pea protein listed before the first fat ingredient, you can bet that a significant portion of the protein is not coming from meat. And of course, dogs are primarily meat-eaters.

Also, Pro Plan uses unnamed "animal digest" and "animal fat". I prefer to feed foods that are willing to name their ingredients. 

There are also other brands less expensive than Wellness that are meat-based and don't rely on corn gluten or pea protein as a primary ingredient. 

Good luck with your puppy.


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## Swampcollie

Lowcounty Buddy said:


> Hello all,
> 
> 
> Anyway, I'm starting to second guess myself. Is Wellness that much better, or what? Is it worth an extra $10/30#s?
> 
> Thanks for the help.


The short answer is no.

Was there a reason to switch foods? Was the pup having problems? Did you consult your breeder?


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## Nairb

Liberty Run Goldens said:


> We fed ProPlan for 15 years.
> 
> We believe that they changed the recipe about five years ago.
> 
> As a result, we switched. My wife feeds a mixture of Fromm and Acana. Maybe it's our imagination, but the dogs coats seem so more radiant now than before.
> 
> Examine the manufacturer's recommended feeding instructions. Dogs need more Purina than Fromm. My wife demonstrated how the "Cost Per Feeding" was the same for Purina and Fromm because when you use Fromm, you don't have to feed as much per the manufacturer's own feeding instructions.


Really? I will confess I don't know how much Fromm is fed per meal, but is it less than 3/4 cup? Because that's how much I feed Bella twice per day. She also gets one hot dog and a few miscellaneous treats for training on most days. 


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## AlanK

My buddy has consumed Pro-Plan from the day he came to live with me.


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## Vhuynh2

Liberty Run Goldens said:


> We fed ProPlan for 15 years.
> 
> We believe that they changed the recipe about five years ago.
> 
> As a result, we switched. My wife feeds a mixture of Fromm and Acana. Maybe it's our imagination, but the dogs coats seem so more radiant now than before.
> 
> Examine the manufacturer's recommended feeding instructions. Dogs need more Purina than Fromm. My wife demonstrated how the "Cost Per Feeding" was the same for Purina and Fromm because when you use Fromm, you don't have to feed as much per the manufacturer's own feeding instructions.


I experienced the same thing -- Molly's coat got a lot nicer after we switched from ProPlan to Acana. 

As for feeding amount, Molly eats the same amount as she always had -- 2 cups a day.



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## dogloverforlife

The only PP I would feed as of now is the Selects formulas. Who knows though my mind changes so much and I have inner turmoil of dog food!


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## HiTideGoldens

I have fed Acana for about 3 years. Due to the increase in costs ($10 per bag from our distributor) and difficultly in availability for the formula we feed, we are looking into feeding something else. By informally surveying my golden friends I found that a good majority of them feed Pro Plan, specifically PP Performance 30/20 mixed with the PP Sensititve Skin (salmon) formula. These are people with dogs related to mine and people whose dogs have thrived on the food with beautiful coats, minimal skin issues, etc. We've decided to give it a try, I will let you know how it goes after we make the transition.


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## Nairb

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I have fed Acana for about 3 years. Due to the increase in costs ($10 per bag from our distributor) and difficultly in availability for the formula we feed, we are looking into feeding something else. By informally surveying my golden friends I found that a good majority of them feed Pro Plan, specifically PP Performance 30/20 mixed with the PP Sensititve Skin (salmon) formula. These are people with dogs related to mine and people whose dogs have thrived on the food with beautiful coats, minimal skin issues, etc. We've decided to give it a try, I will let you know how it goes after we make the transition.


Is it a 50/50 mix?


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## HiTideGoldens

Nairb said:


> Is it a 50/50 mix?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Some do 50/50, some do 4:1 PP Performance: PP Sensitive Skin.


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## goldenmomx2

I personally feed Acana (whoever said the price has gone up is right!), but since OP asked about Wellness or PP here's my 2 cents for what it's worth. Based on the ingredients, I'd choose Wellness any day.

Here are the ingredients of ProPlan Performance:

INGREDIENTS:
Chicken, corn gluten meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain corn, corn bran, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, potassium chloride, salt, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Here are the ingredients of Wellness Super5 Mix:


Ingredients:
Deboned Chicken, Deboned Whitefish, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Peas, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Salmon Meal (a natural source of DHA-Docosahexaenoic Acid), Tomato Pomace, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Tomatoes, Natural Chicken Flavor, Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Oil (a natural source of DHA - Docosahexaenoic Acid), Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Salt, Minerals [Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite], Vitamins [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement], Choline Chloride, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation products.


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## HiTideGoldens

goldenmomx2 said:


> I personally feed Acana (whoever said the price has gone up is right!), .


Get ready, my distributor said it is about to jump another $10 per bag....unbelievable! Plus it's impossible to get in our area right now. We are down to one bag and were in a bit of a panic about it until we decided to switch foods today.

I won't get into the ingredient debate, since I know the ingredients in Wellness will sound better. I just know for many golden people the proof is in the results, and from my informal survey, they see wonderful results with PP Performance mixed with PP Sensitive SS.


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## Wagners Mom2

I tried Wellness years ago and my dogs weren't fond of it....they love the Pro Plan and do well on it...which is good enough for me!


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## Sheldon

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I have fed Acana for about 3 years. Due to the increase in costs ($10 per bag from our distributor) and difficultly in availability for the formula we feed, we are looking into feeding something else.


 With online retailers like Chewy's and Petfood Direct, you can broaden your food choices and get the food with at least a 15% discount plus free freight if you use their coupons and auto-ship.........in this day and age I would never be limited to the big mass brands with the convience of theses companies.


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## Tennyson

My bridge boy was on Wellness Core because of grain allergies. He loved it and did well on it.
My new puppy is on PP Sensitive Skin and Stomach. It's what the breeder has all her dogs on and they look great. He loves it and his stools are near perfect. No particular reason for the sensitive skin and stomach other then it works well.


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## HiTideGoldens

Sheldon said:


> With online retailers like Chewy's and Petfood Direct, you can broaden your food choices and get the food with at least a 15% discount plus free freight if you use their coupons and auto-ship.........in this day and age I would never be limited to the big mass brands with the convience of theses companies.


Thanks for the opinion, but we were already getting a significant discount from a distributor. It was much cheaper than any online retailer. But due to multiple availability issues with the food, plus the increase in price we are switching. There is no right food for everyone and every food has pros and cons. 


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## Tuco

Definitely would choose wellness. Not only based on ingredients but from what I've heard about some on wellness, ingredient wise pro plan relies heavily on corn as a protein booster, and even the grain free formulas are not great, I also don't like them after the 2007 recall, outsourcing to china isn't something I want out of my food. That being said, if you have a higher budget, you may want to consider evo, back 2 basics, acana, Fromm, Orijen, or dr tims. Also you may want to consider feeding raw, you will end up paying about as much as pro plan but with the known advantages of an unprocessed diet along with the freshness and known sourcing of the meats.


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## CAROLINA MOM

I have both of my goldens on Pro Plan SSS, _*it does not contain corn.*_ 

They are doing fantastic on it.


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## tippykayak

If you do Wellness, I'd do the LBP instead of the regular puppy blend. Goldens aren't at a huge risk for growth issues, but I don't see the harm in being conservative in lowering their risks.


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## HiTideGoldens

Honestly, I loved acana but this is the third time in three years that there has been availability issues with the food. Plus, they are increasing their price on our formula 13% after reducing the size of the bags and changing the formula. I would consider that before switching. It seems to be an unfortunate trend with the company. 

I also don't think raw is a feasible option for everyone. 

As I said, there are many foods put there and it is not a one size fits all approach. It all depends on what works for your dog. 


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## CAROLINA MOM

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I also don't think raw is a feasible option for everyone.
> 
> As I said, there are many foods put there and it is not a one size fits all approach. It all depends on what works for your dog.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'd prefer not to feed Raw for various reasons and do agree, what works best for your dog you should stick with. Some dogs will do great on a particular food while others don't. 

I had my guys on several brands of food, various formulas before switching to the PPP SS. As long as they continue to do as well as they are on it, I see no need to make a switch. 

My neigbhor just recently had to take her Golden boy off of Wellness, he started having problems with it, explosive diarrhea. No idea which Wellness formula it was though. She switched him to PPP SS and he's doing great on it, no more problems.


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## vleffingwell

I found dogfoodanalysis.com was helpful in choosing a food for my gals. There are some other sites out there as well and you can learn a lot about what the ingredients are. Some people balk at switching foods but its your dog and your pocketbook! I have found that the better the dog food, the more expensive it is (so far!). I switched from Blue Buffalo (due to the excess gas coming out of the puppy) and currently I am feeding taste of the wild and the review says it is a 5 star out of six due to the ethoxyquin. I found information on the manuf site indicating they do not use it so I would rate it 6 stars. 
However, it is all about how your dog/puppy reacts to the food and what you feel is best. IMO


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## tippykayak

vleffingwell said:


> I found dogfoodanalysis.com was helpful in choosing a food for my gals. There are some other sites out there as well and you can learn a lot about what the ingredients are. Some people balk at switching foods but its your dog and your pocketbook! I have found that the better the dog food, the more expensive it is (so far!).


I think that's true if you follow DFA's recommendations, but I really don't put a lot of stock in them. They rate foods by how well they fit their personal philosophy, not by any kind of hard science.


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## Nairb

10.5 months on PPP. 1-2 small firm poops a day. Never a runny one. Never a skin issue. She acts like every meal is her last one, so she must like it.

With the number of top show people feeding their dogs PPP, coupled with 10 months of solid results, I can't imagine any reason to switch and pay 10-$20 more for something that may not work out. 


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## murphy1

My dog food store orders Acana for me when I need it, be sure to ask if your store can too. I know there was an issue because of a fire they had last fall but the problems was fixed. You can order it on line from WAG.com and a few other websites. Good Luck.


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## Dallas Gold

We are on PPLBP and no issues other than too much stool output. Is there a PP formula that will produce less stool for a nearly 6 month old?

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## Nairb

Dallas Gold said:


> We are on PPLBP and no issues other than too much stool output. Is there a PP formula that will produce less stool for a nearly 6 month old?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Bella eats ALS Performance 30/20, and prior to that, ALS Lamb and Rice. Her stools look more like they came from a Cocker Spaniel than a Golden. 1-2 per day. I see some enormous piles as I walk the neighborhood and often wonder what the dog had eaten. 


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## xoerika620xo

I feed pro plan to my boy. He has done really well on it, i did try to change him to Fromm a few months ago and he did horrible on it. Farting, loose stools, you name it he had it. when i switched him back to Pro plan all of those things went away. Were about half way through the bag of Pro plan, so once were almost done I'm going to try switching him back to Fromm.


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## Nairb

xoerika620xo said:


> I feed pro plan to my boy. He has done really well on it, i did try to change him to Fromm a few months ago and he did horrible on it. Farting, loose stools, you name it he had it. when i switched him back to Pro plan all of those things went away. Were about half way through the bag of Pro plan, so once were almost done I'm going to try switching him back to Fromm.


Why would you switch back to Fromm?


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## Tuco

Nairb said:


> Why would you switch back to Fromm?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Because its generally a higher quality food maybe...


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## Nairb

Tuco said:


> Because its generally a higher quality food maybe...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


One that had previously caused farting and loose stools....


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## Tennyson

xoerika620xo said:


> I feed pro plan to my boy. He has done really well on it, i did try to change him to Fromm a few months ago and he did horrible on it. Farting, loose stools, you name it he had it. when i switched him back to Pro plan all of those things went away. Were about half way through the bag of Pro plan, so once were almost done I'm going to try switching him back to Fromm.


Why would you subject your boy and yourselves to go through that again?
I always thought that you stick with what works.


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## Tuco

Nairb said:


> One that had previously caused farting and loose stools....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Hey I never said he should, especially if its the same food that he didn't do well on before


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## Tuco

Nevertheless it's not our right to give him crap for it, there's a member who was too afraid to ask the forum about
A new food he was gonna try because everyone gave him crap for switching. Let him decide, I know if people who did well on pedigree, and for a year he kept trying new foods with very bad luck, but after 5 foods he found acana and saw great results and it was worth it to him, two years later he switched again to raw and now his dog is doing even better, the if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality can apply to some people, but if someone would rather go through the trouble to find a potentially better food for their dog, LET THEM


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## xoerika620xo

Nairb said:


> One that had previously caused farting and loose stools....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App





Tennyson said:


> Why would you subject your boy and yourselves to go through that again?
> I always thought that you stick with what works.


im not 100 percent sure if i am going to switch back to fromm or another food. I am still searching, i may just end up keeping him on Pro Plan. If i did choose to try fromm it would be a longer process, i don't believe that we actually did the slow process in switching chester like your suppose to do. but like i said im not sure if i am, i may or may not.


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## xoerika620xo

Tuco said:


> Hey I never said *he* should, especially if its the same food that he didn't do well on before
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am a female btw


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## goldenmomx2

sometimes switching to a higher quality food takes longer and more adjustment.

sometimes just because a food is supposed to be "better" doesn't mean it will work for every dog.

I've switched foods a couple times over the past several years because i keep learning more and want to find what is best for my dogs and for my wallet (& because of recalls) - one thing I've learned in all the time & research - there is no one perfect food.


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## HiTideGoldens

(non-moderator voice) 

The bickering in this thread is unnecessary. There is no one food that works for every person or every dog. I have fed a few different foods over my lifetime of dogs, and had good results on all. The terms "better" or "higher quality" are relative. If someone decides to start a business making dog food and the ingredients sound like I would want to eat the food, it doesn't make it a "better" or "higher quality" food IMO. Even if no research is behind the product and it's made in someone's garage. But unfortunately that is what people often think, particularly when there is a dog food evaluation website run by someone with no education in canine nutrition who is rating foods. Furthermore, if a company decides to start a marketing campaign tearing down other foods, it does not make it a "better" food. Feed what works for your dog, period. Not what a website says is better, not what a marketing campaign says is better - feed what works.


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## Nairb

Tuco said:


> Nevertheless it's not our right to give him crap for it, there's a member who was too afraid to ask the forum about
> A new food he was gonna try because everyone gave him crap for switching. Let him decide, I know if people who did well on pedigree, and for a year he kept trying new foods with very bad luck, but after 5 foods he found acana and saw great results and it was worth it to him, two years later he switched again to raw and now his dog is doing even better, the if it ain't broke don't fix it mentality can apply to some people, but if someone would rather go through the trouble to find a potentially better food for their dog, LET THEM
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Not giving anyone crap. I think she probably understands that. 


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## Michele4

It is only worth switching if you see your dog improving with the new food. If you see that there is no difference or that the new food isn't working for you and your budget put him back on the food he was on. I have three dogs and I know we feel we need to do our best for them, our best is what they do good on not what we think they might do better on. Leave well enough alone or your going to have a puppy who can't get used to his food and is constantly having stomach issues. I can assure you dogs out there have lived a very happy long life being fed economy foods. *PPP* is a great food not economy at all. Might not be the most expensive food on the market but dogs definitively thrive on it, many breeder will swear by it.


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## MikaTallulah

Feed what works best for you and your pet.

Mine eat FROMM.

I used to feed Proplan til I found out that they were the makers of Waggin Train/Canyon Creek treats which caused my 4 year old yorkie to have kidney failure to die prematurely. They don't care about pets IMO only the $$$$


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## murphy1

It can be a common sense thing.....read the ingreadients on the bag. If corn is the first ingredient an alarm should tell you it's cheap garbage. Look for the different proteins as the first few ingreadients. It's really a no brainer.


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## HiTideGoldens

But that's just it, it's not a one size fits all approach. Some dogs do better on single protein foods, some need lower protein for health reasons, etc. I think the crusade against corn is also over dramatized. I don't mean feed garbage, but feed what works for your dog. 


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## murphy1

Corn is a cheap filler. If the first ingredient is corn the manufacturer makes more money. Why pay for cheap fillers, be it corn or any other grain, as the main ingredient. Your just filling someones pocket.


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## Tuco

I think that relative to other grains corn is somewhat overdramatized, but it's still probably one of the worst of the grains when found in dog food due to higher mycotoxins, worst of the regulations, one of the most controversial GMO grains, is one of the top choices of fillers to raise protien, very cheap, one of the lowest BVs of the grains, and in the past has had a lot of ******** said about it by certain dog food manufacturers to justify its use. 


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## HiTideGoldens

murphy1 said:


> Corn is a cheap filler. If the first ingredient is corn the manufacturer makes more money. Why pay for cheap fillers, be it corn or any other grain, as the main ingredient. Your just filling someones pocket.


My point is that what works for your dog may not work for mine, or anyone else's. It's not about my opinion on corn or your opinion on corn. 

And let's not kid ourselves, all dog food companies are trying to make money. Champion raising their prices on Acana by 13% after reducing the size of their bags and changing their formula to include more of less expensive ingredients is certainly an effort to fill their pockets too. I used to really like the company and was happy to support them, but after having repeated availability issues with the food (combined with the aforementioned formula change, bag size reduction and price hike) we need to look elsewhere.


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## Dallas Gold

murphy1 said:


> It can be a common sense thing.....read the ingreadients on the bag. *If corn is the first ingredient an alarm should tell you it's cheap garbage. * Look for the different proteins as the first few ingreadients. It's really a no brainer.


Would you mind providing scientific links for this statement please? Not dog food advisor.com, but something legitimate with research to back up the statement that corn is garbage. Thank you.


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## Swampcollie

Dallas Gold said:


> Would you mind providing scientific links for this statement please? Not dog food advisor.com, but something legitimate with research to back up the statement that corn is garbage. Thank you.


What She Said!


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## Tuco

Dallas Gold said:


> Would you mind providing scientific links for this statement please? Not dog food advisor.com, but something legitimate with research to back up the statement that corn is garbage. Thank you.


Oh common, anyone with a brain can tell that that statement was said as a personal opinion and not a fact, Loosen up alittle


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## HiTideGoldens

Tuco said:


> Oh common, anyone with a brain can tell that that statement was said as a personal opinion and not a fact, Loosen up alittle
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Actually if someone is saying "an alarm should go off" that's more than just giving a personal opinion. It is implying that there are some facts everyone should just know, one of them being that corn is a "cheap filler." That's very different than saying something along the lines of "personally, I try to avoid dog foods where corn is the first ingredient, I prefer to see an animal protein listed first versus a grain." 

I would be interested to see the information documenting why corn is such a terrible ingredient as well. I suspect most of it would come from the Blue Buffalo marketing campaign or websites with very little credibility, IMO, like dogfoodanalysis.com/dogfoodadvisor.com


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## Megora

Fwiw.... Bertie gets 1 cup of food 2x's a day. 1/2 of that is the same kibble I feed Jacks. Other half is PP Performance. 

Poop is fine. And Bertie is doing great in every other way. The kid has energy to spare, his coat is shiny/filling in and everyone who meets him comments on his muscles and "big bone". A lot of that is probably hereditary, but the food he eats isn't hurting anything.  

I did look at Selects a while back for both Jacks and Bertie, but never got around to checking the food out with Jacks to see how he handles it. The food he eats right now (Nutrisource) doesn't smell and he likes it, so that's what matters right now. I do have a list of kibbles that Jacks thrives on, so I always have a backup plan. 

The problem with Wellness is I checked it out with Jacks, and that was one of the foods that caused diarrhea and he acted like he didn't really like the taste. Our collie turned his nose up at the food completely. 

AND I forgot to mention this, but Bertie ate plain old regular PP Chicken & Rice Puppy kibble until he was 4 months old. He never once had any diarrhea problems or anything like that during that time.


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## Swampcollie

*WHEN are people going to wise up??*

You can't tell whether or not a food is good or not by reading an ingredient panel, much less rate them!! The reviews and ratings on the various "Food Rating Sites" aren't worth your time to read, they are that bad. The reviews you're reading are done by somebody with no experience or formal education in animal nutrition or veterinary science. Worse they're basing their review on information that is incomplete at best. Your next door neighbor may be a fantastic mason, but that fact doesn't make him an authority on animal nutrition. The same applies to the people who are perpetuating these silly rating sites. 

You can't discern a single thing about the quality of an ingredient(s) by reading the ingredient panel on the side of the bag. 

The only realistic ACCURATE measure of the quality of a food is done by feeding it to real dogs for an extended period of time and measuring the outcome. 

By the way, processed CORN is not filler. If it truly was filler the tens of millions of dogs that eat Ol Roy (it's mostly corn) every day would be starving to death. Since the Ol Roy dogs aren't dead and dieing of starvation on every street corner, corn cannot be a filler.


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## Dallas Gold

Tuco said:


> Oh common, anyone with a brain can tell that that statement was said as a personal opinion and not a fact, Loosen up alittle
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My brain, which I do possess, interpreted the poster's comment as stating fact, not opinion. I believe I am entitled to ask for sourcing of such broad statements, something you should be familiar with as I've asked you many times before to provide research links for your comments, which you never provide.


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## Tuco

Nothing about his statement was quantifiable, you can't quantify if something is a cheap filler nor can you quantify wether an alarm should go off, when an alarm should go off and when one shouldn't is all in the personal opinions. And btw although I do not like neither of the DFAs, because they are not run by anybody who is a vet NUTRITIONIST, I wouldn't support a diet advice website if it was just run by a regular vet either due to the nature of the mandatory studies, but they don't even have a Bachelor of science. But at least with dog food advisor I don't think they condone corn, I think they simply label it as a controversial ingredient. Also they don't make any nutrtional claims, they make quantifiable measurements and educated estimates of dry matter analysis, and meat content., where they do go wrong is eating a food based on those ingredients without the proper education nor experience to rate them properly, they also do not take into account people's experiences with the foods, for example, blue is rated 5 stars, but it's probably one of the top foods that are too rich for many dogs. Even if they condone corn blaming these brands for the crusade against corn in dog food, I really don't think is the true source of the crusade. When my dad switched Macin to raw more than 18 years ago, corn was one of the main concerns and reasons his vet recommended it (I think the raw diet came a lot earlier in Denmark). I think much of the concern was with Monsantos roundup ready corn, which to this day is an extremely controversial ingredient in dog food, and the FDAs standards back then for corn were even worse than today


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## MyBentley

Swampcollie said:


> *WHEN are people going to wise up??*
> 
> You can't tell whether or not a food is good or not by reading an ingredient panel, much less rate them!! The reviews and ratings on the various "Food Rating Sites" aren't worth your time to read, they are that bad. The reviews you're reading are done by somebody with no experience or formal education in animal nutrition or veterinary science. Worse they're basing their review on information that is incomplete at best. Your next door neighbor may be a fantastic mason, but that fact doesn't make him an authority on animal nutrition. The same applies to the people who are perpetuating these silly rating sites.
> 
> *You can't discern a single thing about the quality of an ingredient(s) by reading the ingredient panel on the side of the bag. *
> 
> The only realistic ACCURATE measure of the quality of a food is done by feeding it to real dogs for an extended period of time and measuring the outcome.
> 
> By the way, processed CORN is not filler. If it truly was filler the tens of millions of dogs that eat Ol Roy (it's mostly corn) every day would be starving to death. Since the Ol Roy dogs aren't dead and dieing of starvation on every street corner, corn cannot be a filler.


I do agree that internet food rating sites aren't scientific and can be biased with a particular perspective. I also agree that actual feeding trials of a few months (be it your own dogs or the company's dogs) will give really good feedback.

But I don't agree that you can't tell a single thing about the quality by reading the ingredient list. A buyer has to start somewhere to even whittle down the choices he/she will try. Looking at the ingredients list and researching the company are two early steps.

Dogs are naturally meat eaters and a great number of dog owners would prefer to feed a kibble that actually has the possibility of being more meat protein-based rather than plant-protein based. Unfortunately, U.S. labels don't give the actual percentages of the main ingredients compared to often being able to find them in other countries like the U.K. or Italy.

We end up having to make educated guesstimates. There are three very popular plant protein boosters: pea protein; potato protein and corn gluten. These are concentrates of the more common forms of pea, potato and corn or cornmeal. When you see one of these plant proteins or glutens listed as a primary ingredient (before the first fat), it can be an indication that a significant portion of the protein is coming from them - particularly if no specific meat meal is even listed.

Take a look at the following 3 kibbles. Is there one that looks more likely than the other two to have more meat-based protein? To me, the 3rd one, Annamaet Ultra has the most likely chance to contain more meat-based protein. There are no plant protein boosters listed before the first fat. It does have corn in the form of cornmeal; but it takes a reasonable position in the list of ingredients.

Pro Plan Sports 30/20
Chicken, corn gluten meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), whole grain corn, corn germ meal, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, salt, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, calcium phosphate, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Analysis:
Crude Protein (min) 30%
Crude Fat (min) 20%
Crude Fiber (max) 3%
Moisture (max) 12%

Earthborn Great Plains Feast
Bison Meal, Peas, Pea Protein, Tapioca, Dried Egg Product, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Flaxseed, Lamb Meal, Pea Fiber, Natural Flavors, Blueberry Fiber, Cranberry Fiber, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Spinach, Cranberries, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Taurine, L-Carnitine, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Niacin, Folic Acid, Biotin, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Salt, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Zinc Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite, Cobalt Carbonate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Yucca Schidgera Extract, Rosemary Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product.

Annamaet Ultra
Chicken Meal, Chicken, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)). Ground Corn, Menhaden Fish Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Whole Dry Eggs, Brewers Dried Yeast, Menhaden Fish Oil (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)), Flax Seed Meal, Lecithin, Salt, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, L-Lysine, Proprionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Biotin, Niacin Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Acetate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Citric Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate.


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## Nairb

I'm astounded that dog food is scrutinized to the degree that it is on this site. Just find out what works for your dog and stick with it. 


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## HiTideGoldens

Nairb said:


> I'm astounded that dog food is scrutinized to the degree that it is on this site. Just find out what works for your dog and stick with it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree. And the judgment often displayed when people don't agree with someone else's food choices is just unnecessary.


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## Dallas Gold

Nairb said:


> I'm astounded that dog food is scrutinized to the degree that it is on this site. Just find out what works for your dog and stick with it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I doubt these people even scrutinize their own food choices as much as their dog's food.


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## Nairb

....or their kids, if they have any. 


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## Dallas Gold

Nairb said:


> ....or their kids, if they have any.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No telling how many processed corn products their children ingest each day!


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## MyBentley

Dallas Gold said:


> I doubt these people even scrutinize their own food choices as much as their dog's food.


I'll assume that "these people" is in reference to my post. I was simply trying to show that reading the ingredients panel can provide some helpful information. This was in response to Swampcollie posting that not a single thing can be discerned by looking at an ingredient panel. 

I will acknowledge that not everybody is looking for the same thing. But I would hope that any dog lovers would want to scrutinize what they are feeding their dog - especially when it is exactly the same food meal after meal; year after year.

As far as scrutinizing my own food choices or feeding any existing children processed corn products - I, my husband and my two adult children are about the last people any of those remarks could apply to.

My son eats a vegan diet and grows almost all of his own produce from heirloom seeds. He buys local and regional organic products whenever possible. 

My daughter and I eat a pescatarian diet (seafood the only meat). I try to buy as little processed food as possible and prefer to do my own cooking. If a cereal lists corn as the 2nd ingredient, I don't buy it. If organic ground corn is listed farther down the list, I may.

My husband eats some meat but I buy it from carefully sourced regional farmers. 
We don't obsess over our eating choices - it has simply become a very natural and healthy way of life.

Why anyone would make such mocking assumptions about someone they know nothing about is kind of sad IMO.


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## HiTideGoldens

(MyBentley, I was not referring to you)


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## Dallas Gold

and neither was I My Bentley. I was referencing some so called "experts" on here and in many other threads here who make assumptions about various dog foods and ingredients in them and do not back up their statements of fact with references when asked to do so. I personally could care less what anyone or their dogs eat, but I do find it interesting so many are quick to criticize a food choice for other member's dogs.


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## Nairb

Dallas Gold said:


> and neither was I My Bentley. I was referencing some so called "experts" on here and in many other threads here who make assumptions about various dog foods and ingredients in them and do not back up their statements of fact with references when asked to do so. I personally could care less what anyone or their dogs eat, but I do find it interesting so many are quick to criticize a food choice for other member's dogs.


This is also my line of thinking. The food threads never really interested me until I saw some of these "experts" claiming on a daily basis that the food I feed my dog is "garbage."


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## murphy1

Someone here posted you cannot tell the quality of a dog food by reading the ingredients. Seriously!!!


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## Hannahwdel

Me got my GR mix about a year ago and she had digestive problems and sensitive skin. We put her on pro plan (what our vet reccomend) and almost instantly started to see change. After only about a week she was healthy and had a gleaming coat. Definitely reccomend it.


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## tippykayak

MyBentley said:


> We end up having to make educated guesstimates.


The problem is that all three of the companies you profiled in this post know _exactly_ how dog food websites teach you to read labels, and all three of those labels are gaming for your attention in different ways.

Ingredients are listed by weight, but the company can play with them by choosing original ingredients that have more or less water before processing or by splitting ingredients (peas vs. pea protein vs. pea fiber, for example, or corn vs. corn gluten vs. corn meal). So the whole "art" of reading a label and making "guesstimates" about the quality of the food is just a way of letting the marketing team aim more expensive dog food at your demographic.

If a food has corn listed first, that doesn't mean it actually has more corn than a food with chicken listed first and corn listed third. If corn is listed first, that just means that the marketing team is aiming that food at people who don't read the ingredient list (they're probably value-minded consumers, so the food will be cheap). If the food has "deboned chicken meat" listed first and then things like potatoes, rosemary, apples, peas, etc. listed later, that means the marketing team is aiming the food at somebody who will pay more for something that sounds better. The difference between those two hypothetical ingredient lists really tells you nothing about how much chicken is actually in there, and nothing at all about how your dog will actually do on the food.

So when you see a food that has the fanciest, most wholesome sounding meat product first but then divides its pea content into multiple ingredient entries further down, you might actually be getting something that's got more peas than Ol' Roy's got corn. Except with the pea food, you're paying nine times as much and only getting the _feeling_ like you're doing better for your dog in return.

If anybody honestly thinks that swapping out peas for corn makes a food better for a dog, I challenge you to reevaluate that concept and really look at the hard evidence. Peas are rather high in sugar and provide a _different_ vitamin and nutrient profile than corn, not necessarily a _better_ one. Same goes for apples, potatoes, etc.

If you're willing to consider the premise that corn is garbage or filler, then you also need to consider the premise that some dog food companies have created quite an art out of getting people to pay more for kibbles (sometimes 2-3 times as much per calorie) that have no proven advantage.


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## Sheldon

I’m no expert in pet food, but I like to think I’m fairly intelligent and have the ability to research this topic and make good food choices for my pet as well as for myself and family. I can tell you there is a ton of misinformation on this forum and strong opinions from veteran posters who are given way too much credibility. I have no agenda; I just want to help people. I do think feeding our pets a high quality food will reap benefits resulting in fewer trips to the vet and a longer healthier happy life. It’s my opinion there is no need to obsess about the food we feed, but I would caution being swayed by shrewd marketing campaigns on television, salespeople in pet stores, and yes even strong opinions on this very forum (social media has built some huge companies recently, many starting with some very grass roots marketing tactics)…… just do your own research from credible sources that do not have a conflict of interest, and don't be afraid to question things that just do not make sense.


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## mayasdad

Thalie said:


> I prefer Wellness over ProPlan in general. I feed the grain free formulas to my grown-up girls. I avoid foods that have glutens in them and like to have several named animals protein sources including one in "meal" form in the top 5 ingredients.
> 
> If it were my puppy and he was doing well on the Wellness puppy food (good poops, energy, no itchies or gunky ears), I would leave him on that rather than going back to ProPlan. My personal preference would go to this Wellness formula for a Golden puppy (Wellness® Complete Health® Super5Mix® Large Breed - Puppy Health ).
> 
> However, another way of looking at it is to consider that your breeder has extensive experience feeding Proplan to her own dogs and is happy with it which also counts for something.


i am in the process of switching from pro plan to welness super5 large breed.
I picked wellness because thats what my roommates are feeding one of their dogs and that is maya's favorite bowl to clean.
So far Maya loves her new food...but then again she loved her old food.


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## Megora

^ Besides doing my own research, do you know what I go by? How well other dogs do on whatever they are being fed. If their coats are healthy, clean teeth, good smelling breath (bad breath indicates squibbly stomach/intestines), if their eyes are bright, they have energy and are playful and active.... 

These are things I go by. 

If you have somebody whose dogs are too thin, have drab coats, are constantly battling skin infections.... 

Same thing if you have somebody who DOESN'T EVEN SHARE PICTURES (Swampcollie has shown pictures and videos, btw) of their dogs...

It doesn't matter if these people are saying that their dogs lived a cazillion years and so forth. I'm going take what they say with a raised eyebrow and move on.


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## tippykayak

Megora said:


> It doesn't matter if these people are saying that their dogs lived a cazillion years and so forth. I'm going take what they say with a raised eyebrow and move on.


I've noticed this. On the internet, you can obviously say what you please and it's very hard to verify one way or the other. But certain posters seem to make a whole series of claims that are hard to swallow, and my left eyebrow goes higher each time. In some instances, I'm afraid I'll sprain it.

BTW - if anybody wants to see my shiny dogs, I do have photographic evidence in the form of a blog. The newest entry as of today is about chickadees, but you don't have to scroll down very far to see a couple of lean, bright-eyed dogs with shiny coats leaping through the woods of New England. I think those photos (122 of my blog entries since 2006 feature dogs) make it very difficult to give credibility to the argument that corn is garbage.


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## MyBentley

tippykayak said:


> The problem is that all three of the companies you profiled in this post know _exactly_ how dog food websites teach you to read labels, and all three of those labels are gaming for your attention in different ways.
> 
> Ingredients are listed by weight, but the company can play with them by choosing original ingredients that have more or less water before processing or by splitting ingredients (peas vs. pea protein vs. pea fiber, for example, or corn vs. corn gluten vs. corn meal). So the whole "art" of reading a label and making "guesstimates" about the quality of the food is just a way of letting the marketing team aim more expensive dog food at your demographic.
> 
> If a food has corn listed first, that doesn't mean it actually has more corn than a food with chicken listed first and corn listed third. If corn is listed first, that just means that the marketing team is aiming that food at people who don't read the ingredient list (they're probably value-minded consumers, so the food will be cheap). If the food has "deboned chicken meat" listed first and then things like potatoes, rosemary, apples, peas, etc. listed later, that means the marketing team is aiming the food at somebody who will pay more for something that sounds better. The difference between those two hypothetical ingredient lists really tells you nothing about how much chicken is actually in there, and nothing at all about how your dog will actually do on the food.
> 
> So when you see a food that has the fanciest, most wholesome sounding meat product first but then divides its pea content into multiple ingredient entries further down, you might actually be getting something that's got more peas than Ol' Roy's got corn. Except with the pea food, you're paying nine times as much and only getting the _feeling_ like you're doing better for your dog in return.
> 
> If anybody honestly thinks that swapping out peas for corn makes a food better for a dog, I challenge you to reevaluate that concept and really look at the hard evidence. Peas are rather high in sugar and provide a _different_ vitamin and nutrient profile than corn, not necessarily a _better_ one. Same goes for apples, potatoes, etc.
> 
> If you're willing to consider the premise that corn is garbage or filler, then you also need to consider the premise that some dog food companies have created quite an art out of getting people to pay more for kibbles (sometimes 2-3 times as much per calorie) that have no proven advantage.


I don't think you read my post #58 very carefully. If you had, you would have noticed that I thought the 2nd set of ingredients (Earthborn Meadow Feast) which included peas and pea protein before the fat was NOT a good example of a meat-based protein kibble. I DID think that the 3rd set of ingredients for Annamaet Ultra which contained cornmeal following the first fat IS a good example of a kibble that likely is more meat-based protein than plant-based. The Annamaet included both chicken meal and chicken.

I could post another set of 3 different brands' ingredient lists to illustrate the same thing. Doesn't matter critically if it's corn, potato or peas. It matters what form they are in (protein concentrates and glutens) and how primary of an ingredient they are.

So, no, I haven't been duped by anyone into believing or being aimed at "a more expensive dog food to your demographic". For a dog owner looking for advice on kibble to try, I would always suggest Healthwise Chicken Meal & Oatmeal Active Adult over Pro Plan 30/20 Sport or any other brand that has corn gluten meal as the 2nd ingredient after "chicken". And the Healthwise Active Adult routinely sells for less money.


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## tippykayak

MyBentley said:


> I don't think you read my post #58 very carefully.


I did. I was disagreeing with the overall premise that the ingredient list says what you say it does. When I referred to pea splitting and the value of peas as starch, I was referring to hypothetical food and never mentioned a specific brand. Perhaps you should read my post more carefully.



MyBentley said:


> I DID think that the 3rd set of ingredients for Annamaet Ultra which contained cornmeal following the first fat IS a good example of a kibble that likely is more meat-based protein than plant-based. The Annamaet included both chicken meal and chicken.


And I think you are vastly overestimating the accuracy of your guesstimates when it comes to using ingredient order to say that the Annamaet is more "meat-based" than the other foods. I think we can agree that it's the most expensive, though...



MyBentley said:


> So, no, I haven't been duped by anyone into believing or being aimed at "a more expensive dog food to your demographic". For a dog owner looking for advice on kibble to try, I would always suggest Healthwise Chicken Meal & Oatmeal Active Adult over Pro Plan 30/20 Sport or any other brand that has corn gluten meal as the 2nd ingredient after "chicken". And the Healthwise Active Adult routinely sells for less money.


And I think you playing right into a game that's designed to get you to pay more based on how a marketing team sets up an ingredient list. ProPlan's marketing is based around the idea that real competitors feed their products, so they made a token effort to appease the ingredient label readers by putting chicken first but don't game the list enough to remove corn (they have other blends for people who care about that). You have _no_ idea how much chicken is in that food from the list. It could be a teeny bit—since it's mostly water, or it could constitute a dramatic amount of the protein content. You are assuming and guesstimating that it's not enough, but you really have no idea.

Your recommendation of the Healthwise, whose first ingredients are chicken meal, oatmeal, brown rice, and chicken fat, is a perfect example of how easily that company can game a label reader. By splitting oatmeal and brown rice, they can keep the grain sources below chicken meal on the list even if there's a relatively small amount of chicken meal in there. I understand that in this case, it's not a food that's more expensive than the Purina, but your recommendation of it based on ingredient order is based on too many assumptions to hold water.


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## HiTideGoldens

Interestingly though, I've had dogs for the past 14 years and have never heard of Healthwise. It doesnt necessarily mean anything one way or a another about that particular food, but I have a lot of suspicions about all the new "boutique" foods. And given my experience with Champion with our food (acana) becoming increasingly more difficult to find even from a distributor, the prospect of switching to food made by another small company and encountering the same issues is not exactly enticing. 

Plus, I have seen many many dogs (literally hundreds at dog shows) who eat pro plan and have gorgeous coats, are happy, energetic and healthy. I also have talked to a number of breeders and golden handlers recently about their use of pro plan ( since I decided we need to switch foods) and all of them had tried the foods that look "better" on the label (according to some) but did not achieve the same results as they did with pro plan. So they went back to what worked. If pro plan doesn't work for us I will try another food, but IMO it is absurd to say a food is better for a dog until the dog has been eating it for enough time to actually be able to see how the dog does on the food. 


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## MyBentley

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Interestingly though, I've had dogs for the past 14 years and have never heard of Healthwise. It doesnt necessarily mean anything one way or a another about that particular food, but I have a lot of suspicions about all the new "boutique" foods. And given my experience with Champion with our food (acana) becoming increasingly more difficult to find even from a distributor, the prospect of switching to food made by another small company and encountering the same issues is not exactly enticing.
> 
> Plus, I have seen many many dogs (literally hundreds at dog shows) who eat pro plan and have gorgeous coats, are happy, energetic and healthy. I also have talked to a number of breeders and golden handlers recently about their use of pro plan ( since I decided we need to switch foods) and all of them had tried the foods that look "better" on the label (according to some) but did not achieve the same results as they did with pro plan. So they went back to what worked. If pro plan doesn't work for us I will try another food, but IMO it is absurd to say a food is better for a dog until the dog has been eating it for enough time to actually be able to see how the dog does on the food.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


*Healthwise* is definitely NOT a small company; nor is it a new "boutique" food. It has long been the unadvertised economy line of Natura whose parent company is Proctor & Gamble as of 3 years ago. So, you can't get much more mainstream than that. 

And yes, I agree, that you really do have to feed a food for some months to judge how it works for a dog. But before you feed any specific food you have to narrow the field of choices to try by a variety of means. And investigating the ingredient list, the sourcing and the company are some of those means.


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## HiTideGoldens

I totally agree, and at this point I have chosen one of those means to be the results many breeder friends, golden owners and handlers have seen on pro plan. 


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## MyBentley

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, tippykayak, about whether I'm a duped naive consumer or someone who has actually done their homework.

Set aside my reference list to Annamaet. Perhaps an even better illustration is Dr. Tim's Pursuit which is less expensive. It has one meat protein followed by one carb followed by one fat.


Ingredients:
Chicken meal, brown rice flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), oat flour, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), dried whole eggs, rice bran, menhaden fish oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), ocean herring meal, flax seed meal, catfish meal, chicken liver meal, dried porcine plasma protein, salmon meal, lecithin, potassium chloride, salt, canola oil, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried chicory root, calcium carbonate, yucca shidigera extract, organic kelp meal, dried psyllium seed husk, choline chloride, DL-methionine, L-lysine, algae fat product (a source of DHA), L-ascorbyl-2 polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), vitamin E supplement, L-carnitine, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, taurine, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, rosemary extract.

*Animal feeding tests* using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Pursuit provides complete and balanced nutrition for maintenance.

Metabolizable energy (calculated): 3945 kcal/kg
Pursuit is 450 kcal ME/cup (115g)


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## tippykayak

MyBentley said:


> I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, tippykayak, about whether I'm a duped naive consumer or someone who has actually done their homework.


I don't think you're naive, but I do think you are putting more credence in the label than is justified by the facts.



MyBentley said:


> Set aside my reference list to Annamaet. Perhaps an even better illustration is Dr. Tim's Pursuit which is less expensive. It has one meat protein followed by one carb followed by one fat.


Another lovely example of a food that could contain as much, more, or less chicken than the Pro Plan. How much does rice flour weigh relative to corn gluten meal per calorie? I don't know either. How much does oat flour weigh? Is inulin really a healthy fiber for dogs even if you call it "chicory root?" How much protein is really in dried whole eggs?

You don't know, and you can't tell from the label. And Dr. Tim's is still pretty expensive.


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## GoldenCamper

I tried Tucker on Wellness once, almost 2 months and 40 something lbs worth.

Major fail, didn't thrive on it. Doesn't mean Wellness is bad, I moved on.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

tippykayak said:


> I don't think you're naive, but I do think you are putting more credence in the label than is justified by the facts.
> 
> 
> 
> Another lovely example of a food that could contain as much, more, or less chicken than the Pro Plan. How much does rice flour weigh relative to corn gluten meal per calorie? I don't know either. How much does oat flour weigh? Is inulin really a healthy fiber for dogs even if you call it "chicory root?" How much protein is really in dried whole eggs?
> 
> You don't know, and you can't tell from the label. And Dr. Tim's is still pretty expensive.


 
At petflow.com, 44 lbs of Dr. Tim's Pursuit is $66.19 (1.52/lb) and Pro Plan SSS is 33 lb for $51.99 (1.58/lb) today.

Also, to quote Tim Hunt (Dr. Tim), "High levels of animal proteins only from North America;the actual protein make up is highly animal based such as Momentum is 94% animal protein in the protein makeup and our overall average of animal proteins is 87% in all formulas. Vitamins made specifically for us in USA and Ireland, digestability of 95% of the carbs, high level of omega 3 fatty acids from cold water fish, less to feed because of the nutrient density and less to clean up in the yard are some of the reasons why our food allows the dog to thrive so well. " Found in this thread: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...2794-thinking-switching-dr-tims-thoughts.html, post #6.


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## tippykayak

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> At petflow.com, 44 lbs of Dr. Tim's Pursuit is $66.19 (1.50/lb) and Pro Plan SSS is 33 lb for $51.99 (1.58/lb) today.


The Pro Plan 30/20 we were discussing is $54.99 for a 37.5 pound bag ($1.46/pound) at petflow. And strangely, when I look at petflow, Dr. Tim's pursuit shows as $66.99 for the 44 pound bag ($1.52). I don't think $0.08 a pound is a huge difference, regardless, especially since the Dr. Tim's is 481 cal/cup vs. the Pro Plan's 475 cal/cup, so it's essentially a wash on the cal/$ number.


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## Nairb

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> At petflow.com, 44 lbs of Dr. Tim's Pursuit is $66.19 (1.50/lb) and Pro Plan SSS is 33 lb for $51.99 (1.58/lb) today.
> 
> Also, to quote Tim Hunt (Dr. Tim), "High levels of animal proteins only from North America;the actual protein make up is highly animal based such as Momentum is 94% animal protein in the protein makeup and our overall average of animal proteins is 87% in all formulas. Vitamins made specifically for us in USA and Ireland, digestability of 95% of the carbs, high level of omega 3 fatty acids from cold water fish, less to feed because of the nutrient density and less to clean up in the yard are some of the reasons why our food allows the dog to thrive so well. " Found in this thread: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...2794-thinking-switching-dr-tims-thoughts.html, post #6.


Then some people are paying too much. I saw the 37.5 lb bag of Pro Plan SSS at Mills Fleet Farm yesterday for 42.99. Performance 30/20 was the exact same price. I didn't check to see if they have Dr. Tim's, but I doubt it.


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## Nairb

Here's the link for the performance blend. The SSS isn't on the website, but it was in the store.

Purina Pro Plan Performance Dog Food - Mills Fleet Farm (37.5 lb) $42.99


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## Nairb

Here it is (SSS), but it's a 33 lb bag. $41.49

Purina Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach Dog Food - Mills Fleet Farm

Because these foods are more widely available, better prices can be found.


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## HiTideGoldens

Nairb said:


> Then some people are paying too much. I saw the 37.5 lb bag of Pro Plan SSS at Mills Fleet Farm yesterday for 42.99. Performance 30/20 was the exact same price. I didn't check to see if they have Dr. Tim's, but I doubt it.


In preparation for our transition to a 50/50 of Pro Plan Performance 30/20 and Pro Plan SSS from Acana, we actually ordered it off of Amazon since we didn't need it immediately (and time is at a premium for my hubby and I with work these days). Pro Plan SSS was 42.99 with free shipping 



 (I haven't seen a 37.5 lb bag of this one, only 33 lb)

We also ended up getting the 37.5 lb bag of Performance 30/20 from Wag.com for 47.73 (including tax) with free shipping.

This was cheaper than anywhere else we could find. My hubby is great at price shopping.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Can anyone provide what percentage of Proplan's protein comes from animal sources? On any formula?


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## Nairb

goldenjackpuppy said:


> In preparation for our transition to a 50/50 of Pro Plan Performance 30/20 and Pro Plan SSS from Acana, we actually ordered it off of Amazon since we didn't need it immediately (and time is at a premium for my hubby and I with work these days). Pro Plan SSS was 42.99 with free shipping Amazon.com: Purina Pro Plan Dry Adult Dog Food, Sensitive Skin and Stomach Formula, 33-Pound Bag: Pet Supplies (I haven't seen a 37.5 lb bag of this one, only 33 lb)
> 
> We also ended up getting the 37.5 lb bag of Performance 30/20 from Wag.com for 47.73 (including tax) with free shipping.
> 
> This was cheaper than anywhere else we could find. My hubby is great at price shopping.


I would probably take advantage of the free shipping too, but I can walk in to the store and get that price off the shelf. I drive by Mills Fleet Farm all the time.

I agree that the SSS probably only comes in the 33 lb bag. I saw the two bags next to each other, and assumed they were the same size. The Performance was definitely 37.5 lbs. I'm thinking of trying the mix of the two that you mentioned the other day, but I'd probably start with a smaller bag of the SSS just to make sure it works.


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## HiTideGoldens

Nairb said:


> I would probably take advantage of the free shipping too, but I can walk in to the store and get that price off the shelf. I drive by Mills Fleet Farm all the time.
> 
> I agree that the SSS probably only comes in the 33 lb bag. I saw the two bags next to each other, and assumed they were the same size. The Performance was definitely 37.5 lbs. I'm thinking of trying the mix of the two that you mentioned the other day, but I'd probably start with a smaller bag of the SSS just to make sure it works.


I will let you know how it goes. I find it interesting that so many do that blend, so I figured I may as well try what works for so many people. Plus it will be convenient for Kira to already eat what our handler feeds once she starts showing at the end of the year or beginning of next year. 

And although anecdotal evidence, this handler is very well known for having dogs look amazing under her care and she has chosen this blend of foods. Coats are amazing and healthy, dogs are happy and energetic.... it's very impressive to see. I had no idea she fed pro plan until I asked recently. She's been doing this for a long time and feeds what works.


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## Vhuynh2

goldenjackpuppy said:


> And although anecdotal evidence, this handler is very well known for having dogs look amazing under her care and she has chosen this blend of foods. Coats are amazing and healthy, dogs are happy and energetic.... it's very impressive to see. I had no idea she fed pro plan until I asked recently. She's been doing this for a long time and feeds what works.


I am not knocking ProPlan at all, but this is the second time I have read on here that an owner/handler feeds ProPlan while showing their dogs but choose to feed another food when they're not showing. I thought that was very interesting because you always hear that champion dogs eat ProPlan, but now I know it doesn't necessarily mean they're eating it "full time". (I do understand you are making the switch to feed ProPlan as well).

Since I don't want to pay $85 after taxes for a bag of Acana, I am looking into PP SSS as well. The Performance formula did not work for Molly. 

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## Rob's GRs

I can only speak of Wellness super5mix Chicken on my Goldens. I have fed this to them for probably 7 years now. They have done well on it, and never had any issues with it. I can not speak of other dog foods as I have no experience with them. Since Wellness works for my Goldens I never saw the need in looking into another brand or food. If it is not broke I tend not to see a need in fixing something then.


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## MyBentley

I think the posts show that both Dr. Tim's Pursuit and the Pro Plan Sport 30/20 can both be had at relatively the same costs. Sometimes one is more expensive; sometimes the other.

As far as the protein percentages per volume or weight of corn gluten meal; versus brown rice flour, etc - yes, that information is available from multiple sources though it may take some conversions to compare apples to apples. 

I don't believe Pro Plan or for that matter others like Fromm have been willing to share what percentage of their overall protein in their formulas come from meat sources.


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## HiTideGoldens

Vhuynh2 said:


> I am not knocking ProPlan at all, but this is the second time I have read on here that an owner/handler feeds ProPlan while showing their dogs but choose to feed another food when they're not showing. I thought that was very interesting because you always hear that champion dogs eat ProPlan, but now I know it doesn't necessarily mean they're eating it "full time". (I do understand you are making the switch to feed ProPlan as well).
> 
> Since I don't want to pay $85 after taxes for a bag of Acana, I am looking into PP SSS as well. The Performance formula did not work for Molly.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


That's actually not what I said, and no one I know feeds the food (PP) only when showing. We are switching all of our dogs, it will just be more convenient for when Kira is with a handler since the handler already feeds the same food.


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## Vhuynh2

goldenjackpuppy said:


> That's actually not what I said, and no one I know feeds the food (PP) only when showing. We are switching all of our dogs, it will just be more convenient for when Kira is with a handler since the handler already feeds the same food.


Sorry. I guess I misunderstood. 


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## Nairb

Just saw a great deal at Mills Fleet Farm for 37.5 lb PPP performance 30/20 and 33 lb PPP SSS for those who live near one of these stores. I don't think I've seen a better deal anywhere, online or otherwise. $38.99.









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## MyBentley

I'm always impressed when I hear people report really good sale prices at farm supply stores. Makes you wonder why some of the big chain pet stores can't or won't do it more often.

I also see on the Mills Fleet Farm site that Eukanuba Premium Performance 30/20 is selling at $44.99 for a 40 lb. bag - making it an even better deal than the PPP SSS.


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## Nairb

MyBentley said:


> I'm always impressed when I hear people report really good sale prices at farm supply stores. Makes you wonder why some of the big chain pet stores can't or won't do it more often.
> 
> I also see on the Mills Fleet Farm site that Eukanuba Premium Performance 30/20 is selling at $44.99 for a 40 lb. bag - making it an even better deal than the PPP SSS.


It's also a business that started in my home town, so I feel better about giving them my money rather than Petco or some obscure online retailer. 


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## HiTideGoldens

Not to entirely resurrect an old thread, but just an update on our transition to ProPlan from Acana. Our dogs all have transitioned very easily to the 50/50 mix of the PP SSS and PP Performance 30/20 from Acana Grasslands. Stools are the same for all the dogs....even a bit smaller on the new food, which I was surprised to see given all the hubub about enormously huge stools on foods deemed to be "lesser quality" than boutiquey foods. I never thought their stools were particularly small on Acana, they always seemed normal sized to me. Perhaps this food is being digested in their systems better than Acana. Who knows. Less poop is always a good thing though, especially with three dogs! 

Overall it is going well. The only annoying part is mixing the food, but we've just been putting it in our big container mixed to avoid having to keep 2 containers of the different foods going. I will try and update in another couple of months after they've had more time on it, but overall I'm pretty happy with our decision.


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## Brave

Goldenjackpuppy: that is excellent news! Do you mind indulging me? What were their fat percentage before on acana and now on a 50/50 mix? I know 30/20 is 20% fat. 


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## HiTideGoldens

Brave said:


> Goldenjackpuppy: that is excellent news! Do you mind indulging me? What were their fat percentage before on acana and now on a 50/50 mix? I know 30/20 is 20% fat.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well it looks like Acana Grasslands was 17% fat. The PP SSS is 16% fat and the 30/20 is 20% fat and we are doing 50/50 it is probably right in the middle at 18%. Does that make sense? So a very small difference for our dogs


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## Brave

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Well it looks like Acana Grasslands was 17% fat. The PP SSS is 16% fat and the 30/20 is 20% fat and we are doing 50/50 it is probably right in the middle at 18%. Does that make sense? So a very small difference for our dogs


Thanks!!! We're having some tummy troubles with Bear and trying to get to to bottom of it. Lol. I wondered to see if your pups wet through a change in fat (mine went from 12% to 20%.... Technically 16% since we're still at a 50/50 mix) and i wondered if the fat is a problem. 


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## dogloverforlife

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Not to entirely resurrect an old thread, but just an update on our transition to ProPlan from Acana. Our dogs all have transitioned very easily to the 50/50 mix of the PP SSS and PP Performance 30/20 from Acana Grasslands. Stools are the same for all the dogs....even a bit smaller on the new food, which I was surprised to see given all the hubub about enormously huge stools on foods deemed to be "lesser quality" than boutiquey foods. I never thought their stools were particularly small on Acana, they always seemed normal sized to me. Perhaps this food is being digested in their systems better than Acana. Who knows. Less poop is always a good thing though, especially with three dogs!
> 
> Overall it is going well. The only annoying part is mixing the food, but we've just been putting it in our big container mixed to avoid having to keep 2 containers of the different foods going. I will try and update in another couple of months after they've had more time on it, but overall I'm pretty happy with our decision.


Do you mix with the SSS so they have salmon for their coats?

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## HiTideGoldens

I'm doing the mix because it was recommended to me by breeder friends and handlers. I think the justification is that the 30/20 is a bit high in protein and fat, so the mixing cuts it down, plus you get the benefits of salmon in there as well.


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## Wagners Mom2

Brave said:


> Thanks!!! We're having some tummy troubles with Bear and trying to get to to bottom of it. Lol. I wondered to see if your pups wet through a change in fat (mine went from 12% to 20%.... Technically 16% since we're still at a 50/50 mix) and i wondered if the fat is a problem.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


How much are you feeding? Could it be too much?


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## Brave

1.5 cups twice a day so 3 cups daily total. He's had up to 2 cups twice a day before without any problems. 

And he was getting the volume for a few months now (variable between 1-2 cups twice a day depending on how he looks and feels). 


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## CrazyZane

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Can anyone provide what percentage of Proplan's protein comes from animal sources? On any formula?


Has anyone found out the answer to the question above?

I sent a email to Purina yesterday asking the same question and also asking what their ash levels were. I received a reply this morning saying they are currently researching my request and they will be back in contact with me shortly. After the recent CN recall I need to find a new kibble for Zane fast. I was thinking of going with Pro-Plan 28/18 ~ 30/20 or Dr. Tim's Pursuit.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom

You may hear back on the ash, but I highly doubt you'll hear on the meat protein. Most companies won't be forthcoming on that. It's a very smoke and mirrors industry IMO. Tim Hunt (Dr. Tim's) is the only one I know that is open about that.


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## CrazyZane

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> You may hear back on the ash, but I highly doubt you'll hear on the meat protein. Most companies won't be forthcoming on that. It's a very smoke and mirrors industry IMO. Tim Hunt (Dr. Tim's) is the only one I know that is open about that.


I emailed CN (Natura) last week and they said:
*"**within each Natura formula, at least 80% of the protein comes from high quality animal sources. Our EVO line has some of the highest protein levels of any pet food on the market."

*I asked how much lamb meal was in their puppy lamb and rice formula and they said that's proprietary, which was no surprise.


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## Tayla's Mom

Can your dog live a long healthy life on lower quality foods, yes they probably can. Can he get sick and die early and still eat high quality kibble, yes, he can. But just like people you will feel better and function better on better foods. Even if you feed a lower quality food, toss in some good stuff a few times a week like meat and veggies. There are a couple people on here who have noticed a huge difference on a home cooked diet and many swear by raw. I'm in between those two and figuring out my way. My dogs have always had the higher quality kibble and both lived to 15 years old. Tayla is going to be my "almost" raw girl. I'll let you know how it goes in a few years, but feed the best quality food you can afford.


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