# Some insight into my Emmie..



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have posted before about Emmie... She is 6.5 years old and started showing in the conformation world at six months with a woman who owns, shows, and breeds Dobies. She had wins against large classes in the AKC as a puppy, had 5 CKCpoints, and UKC points. She is my heart dog of all those that I own. She sits in my lap, and sleeps on the bed with some part of her touching me... Four months ago she had a pyometra and a splenectomy... I,want to show her and train her in obedience . Anyway, I have found that she just shuts off..primarily in places she had negative experiences. I cannot even get her to sit in these places.... Yet, at my work which she loves, she heels beautifully. And sits, lays down, etc...does beautiful recalls. Took her to class last weekend which has been a negative experience in the past...and the minute I asked her to sit, she stood, ducked her head and turned away... So I worked on getting her to sit, telling her to stay, standing beside her, waited for her to look at me, and then rewarded her, after a bit, she would,heel. The heeling did not generalize, so had to work in another part of the room and start all over again... Yet, at home or at work, she instantly will start to work... I will not go into the aversive stuff that I allowed to happen, if anyone is interested, you can PM me.. I live in a symbiotic relationship with my dogs. I am looking for insight on how to build her confidence in herself and me... And how to replicate what she can do in all situations...


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Bumping it...thoughts anyone? To help me and Em?


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I wish I had some suggestions but hopefully someone else does.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Janice, I'm not an expert other than being Jacks' mom. 

Do you know the threshold she can handle? As far as classes? 

Do you have an in-between place to train with her (away from home and work) - which would not be the same level as the place that causes her stress?


----------



## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

I'm not sure, but...
The only thing I might try, is to up the ante with really, really good rewards if she will respond to food. If she is shutting down in class due to negative experiences, then I would use a favorite food: hot dogs or cheese or something she might perk up for. 

And the obvious thing, keep the training really positive ; your voice, your tone, and your mood. Dogs channel our feelings. If u r nervous or worried, she'll feed off that. So, go slow, have fun, make it fun for her. If she blows a heel, or a Stay, so what? She'll do it perfectly later or tomorrow.
When Olliver gets in one of his bored/teenage rebellious moods and he decides to tune me out while training, I'll just laugh, say OK You Wicked Dog and walk him to new spot and try again. If he is just not ON at that moment, we'll just have a massage and try later. 
Good luck with your sweetie.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think everyone has heard my Jacks' stories, but the way I got him through his issues was a balance of understanding and tough love. Not using aversives or corrections over much, but telling him he was being silly and expecting him to work through whatever scared him. 

As he got through the SCARY stuff and found it didn't kill him and things were as normal as normal - he became a lot stronger mentally in situations that would have been too much for him before. 

Best example of that was the first time I walked into the training facility where I train on Wednesdays. They run agility on the left side of the building the same time as obedience classes. I'll never forget the first 2-3 weeks with him trembling and crawling under chairs at the banging and barking from the agility side. 

But he adjusted over time. It was me going into training mode and being confident for him and training him at the level he was at.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Can you spend time in those locations? Like grab a chair and a book? Sit down relax with your dog at your side like you would at home. Let her to to sleep maybe. Is that a possibility? Maybe if you completely take the need for any obedience out of the equation and just let you and her be in the location without any requirements. Just hang out and relax. Maybe there is a time when there are no classes.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Alaska7133 said:


> Can you spend time in those locations? Like grab a chair and a book? Sit down relax with your dog at your side like you would at home. Let her to to sleep maybe. Is that a possibility? Maybe if you completely take the need for any obedience out of the equation and just let you and her be in the location without any requirements. Just hang out and relax. Maybe there is a time when there are no classes.


I could try that..


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Alaska7133 said:


> Can you spend time in those locations? Like grab a chair and a book? Sit down relax with your dog at your side like you would at home. Let her to to sleep maybe. Is that a possibility? Maybe if you completely take the need for any obedience out of the equation and just let you and her be in the location without any requirements. Just hang out and relax. Maybe there is a time when there are no classes.


I seem to remember a protocol for this technique in Control Unleashed. Doesn't LJilly teach a Control Unleashed class?


----------



## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

I think the suggestion for spending time in those locations where she shuts down is a good one. Just time with positive rewards and nothing asked if her. 

After she's gotten more comfortable with and desensitized to just being in the uncomfortable place, perhaps you could try having her do really simple stuff such as sit and heel a block away, walk closer, do it again, etc., and then enter the site and do it again. All with great treats. That way the location is changing but she is focused on doing the same thing over and over. 

Good luck. She sounds like a wonderful dog. Would love to see pictures of her.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It sounds like you're already doing it, but I'd just set her up to succeed over and over with mellow rewards that she loves and finds familiar. Any chance to relax or play a game should gradually recondition her to like the space and the activity. It sounds like she really made an association of stress or anxiety with the space, and it sounds pretty deep, so my guess is it would take a while to undo that.


----------



## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

I agree, I think desensitization to those locations is the best place to start.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

So the breed ring was a great place for her to learn how to shut off...when she is ultra stressed, it doesn't matter if she is starving and it is fillet mignon, she refuses food. When she is on and happy, she will eat anything. I think she has generalized turning off to any dog training building,... I will try to get a picture of her heeling at work tomorrow. She loves to work in the building. She looks like a sausage as after her emergency Pyo/splenectomy, I really over fed her. I will take the suggestions and see what I can do to happy her thru things. She loves high squeaky voices the best. I have to work at high squeaky...


----------



## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Have you been taking her to the same training building(s) though or have you tried taking her to one she has previously not visited?


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

She has been to three different buildings, but she will do the same thing at an outdoor show with people and dogs milling about. But it is not the milling about and dogs that necessarily affect her... At work, she can be in the treatment room with dog housemates and dog friends, and she will heel with her ears up! I cannot say the word "ready" as it signals her to shut off...


----------



## Colie CVT (Sep 15, 2013)

My dog wasn't having exactly the same kind of trouble, though he was obviously stressed and nervous about all kinds of situations. If he was at my home, the dog parks he knew or at my work, he was fine. No one believed me that he was actually afraid of strangers. There was a time he was afraid of bikes, skateboards, rollerbladers, strollers. You get the idea. 

There was a girl on a forum who I was on who taught me a trick that I honestly wouldn't have thought would work, but with as food motivated as my boy is, and with a lot of patience and praise, he has gotten much calmer in what used to be high stress/shut down situations. The things where he'd try to run, forget how to heel/sit near me. It was obvious he didn't want to focus on me, even if we spent so much time working on a watch me. 

It was something that she called "Look". When her dog, who was very fearful, would basically just shut down and refuse to relax when she noticed people, she would say "Look" and literally put a treat into her mouth. 

It took time with Myles and probably me looking like a crazy person, but it's made him start to associate any time there's people nearby, or something that would normally stress him, if he plays his cards right people in any situation means that Myles gets food. If he heels with mommy and ignores that person who we are walking past, it means food. If he sat with me next to the walking path that a bike passed us at, it meant food - even if he wasn't looking at me! It's kind of taking that just dropping treats and acting calmly to another level lol.

He's not completely perfect, but even now, if there's only one person involved or a few people, he is much more willing to go and make friends with people who are strangers than he ever has been. All through food and a slightly tough love desensitization.  Even if it is scary, we wait until he's calmed down - relaxed or focusing on me - before we head to the next place. 

Not sure if it will help, but it's perhaps worth a shot? I have noticed too that doggie friends help. Since I've gotten Leia, Myles is more willing to go up to people and less worried. Leia is very comfortable with strangers and thinks that anyone - so long as they aren't being threatening - can come love on her. We do group hikes now and Myles is actually friendly with all the people as much as the dogs.  He wouldn't have gotten anywhere near them in the past! I would have been dealing with him bolting or refusing to move lol.


----------



## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I like the "look" thing. We teach a conditioned interruptor to our dogs which is actually their name, but I like the idea of making it a specific word, since we tend to naturally use dogs' names all the time, which can weaken them as interruptors. But when your conditioned interruptor is super fun and specific to rewarded contexts, I think it could help a lot.

I ended up accidentally teaching Comet that "ready!?" meant I was about to do something awesome, so I actually use it in fear contexts or to get his attention when he's really focused. I made a big effort to make "Comet!" the same thing, but I didn't focus in on that until the last year or two, so he grew up hearing "Comet" a lot without a specific reward pattern. "Ready" works better because I kept saying it before we would practice heeling, start an agility run, or release from a stay while hiking. So now it works AMAZINGLY as a "look at me, life is good" kind of cue.

I now encourage people with puppies to play name games where the pup gets a reward for making eye contact. Whether or not you put the food in your mouth or just in a hand (which allows you to move the hand further and further from your face in order to teach the pup to look away from it and make eye contact), I think it's a terrific idea to build trust and connection, regardless of the dog's age.


----------



## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

They were talking about this trainer in the Obedience forum recently: Bridget Carlsen - Competition Obedience Training She's know for very "up" dogs. I do watch and wonder if the dogs are really happy or trained to display happy behaviors. Or if there is really a difference.

I'm currently reading this book: 



 . It's about excited dogs, not shut down dogs, but it has discussion about how excited dogs are in an emotional state instead of a rational state and how to get them to a rational state. Basically - a lot of mat work and slowly introducing more intense distractions. There's also this "quick draw" thing where you have to catch the dog in the fraction of a second between being on his mat and running to the doorbell.

The only real suggestion I had was to not use the word "Ready". Can you train a new word without the bad memories?


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

quilter said:


> The only real suggestion I had was to not use the word "Ready". Can you train a new word without the bad memories?


How about using "Yes" as the word. I know many people use the word "ready" because it can be a second command, as in, the judge asks "Are you ready?" before the start of an exercise, so the handler can say "Ready" to both answer he judge and get the dog keyed in. "Yes" can be used in the same way, as an answer to the judge and a command to the dog. Maybe you can say "Yup," "You bet," "Certainly" or something else?


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I try not to use the word, ready, I just forget sometimes. I will look into the excited dog book...would help with the baby.


----------



## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

I like the idea of going places just to relax, no training at all. I also like the idea of teaching "yes".


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I got books on my kindle regarding behavior training, Fired, Frantic, and Freaked Out and Behavior Adjustment Training. Interesting thing I came across which I knew was wrong with Emmie, was using a no reward mark. Of the five Goldens I have trained to multiple obedience titles, only one could ever accept that she was doing something wrong. That was Emmie's grandma, Cookie. Cookie was ok with being told she was wrong. None of the others could ever take that..to them it is like a collar pop correction. Since I started training her with a high pitched voice and never telling her she is wrong about anything, she has been much more willing to work for me... But if someone near me uses a no reward mark word on their dog, she shuts off.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Bumping up, any thoughts? One of my techs saw me working with her today and asked if I was going to show her... When she is on, she is on...


----------



## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

If you are using a 'common' no reward marker - suggest changing it to one that is unique (perhaps in a different language?) so that it becomes 'her' no reward marker and avoid using the no reward marker that you have been using. 

You can try counter conditioning/desensitizing her to the 'common' no reward markers so that in time, they come to mean good things for her. Start at home using a softer/quieter calm voice, rewarding with a new (or rarely given) high value treat when you say the word, gradually become more 'firm' with it as she comfortable with hearing it, building up to the 'tone' she is likely to hear in the training environment. Practice yourself, then have other people at work or at home practice with you as well to help her understand that no matter who says it, it means the same thing - good things for her.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I don 't want to use a no reward mark with her as I realized in my over analyzing her that with all of my other Goldens I never did that. Historically, if one of my guys did not do something correctly if they already knew how to do it, I just set them up and tried again. I have achieved 5 CDs, 3CDXs,1UD, and numerous rally titles from RN to RE on multiple dogs using this philosophy. I think the idea of counter conditioning the negative word associations with a positive response/food is a great idea. Words in her vocabulary that make her shut down are: ready and too bad, for example.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Emmie is the first of mine that I have ever trained using a no reward mark. I was just listening to the person I train with as her training philosophies have evolved. I think my guys are just too soft.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I really feel for you as this same person was no friend to Copley either, and I know how you adore Emmie. 

I wonder if it would work( it woud be labor intensive) , to play with her and work her right at the threshold of where she shuts down. Maybe 50 feet from the building, then 25 feet, then in the doorway, then in the coatt room, then near the ring, etc, always letting her control things by backing up when she gets anxious without letting her dwell on it and going far enough away so she will engage happily.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Ok Jill, when can I come to your place and work with her and actually practice? I am missing the handling class when I run more than I ever want to!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Do,not get me wrong my friend totally trained me to get a UD. And Miss Em is sleeping on my lap... And actually, it is a,question of how to,start her, once she starts, she heels...


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The problem with Em is not that you work her and she shuts off... The problem is finding the switch to engage her to heel..


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Ok Jill, when can I come to your place and work with her and actually practice? I am missing the handling class when I run more than I ever want to!


Lol, handling class will soon start up again. Yes, it is a whole lot of running. 

We set Tuesday 11 to 4 aside so people can work dogs who are friends. Judy Chute and Brenda Weeks have been using the time, and you are welcome too. 
Another good time is on Fridays from noon to 5pm.


----------



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

I hope things are improving with your Emmie. I've been on a Michael Ellis binge and after watching this video it made me think of your thread. Maybe some of what he says could be useful for you:

Rehabbing Mistakes in Dog Training

Best of luck!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Thanks for that link... I have found more insight into my Em... Using what I have learned from her, I can get her to heel enthusiastically. Tail wagging, head up. A bit forgey, and not real straight when she halts, but I will take that over ducking her head and quitting....


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Reading Control Unleashed... Liking it so far. Since I changed my attitude, Emmie's attitude has changed. Knock on wood, it has been awhile since she has shutdown, and her happiness shows in her expression..


----------



## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Glad to hear that--hope she continues to improve.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It's great that you are reading Control Unleased, and I am glad you've been able to come over and practice when it is quiet. I bet she is so pleased to have the time and attention with you.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes, thank you!!! Ljilly!


----------



## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

So happy Em is doing better! Love her!


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The no reward marker was a big no no with Emmie. As one of the books I am reading says, the dog does not want to be told it is wrong. I never ever used a no reward mark with the other five I have titled in multiple venues, so why did I allow it with her? I am grateful that Ljilly is letting me train close by and I am also training her at work...we heel up and down the hallways and go in and out of exam rooms. The rooms form our left and right turns. Plus she is heeling with people, some she knows and some are clients, around her. Last week a client asked me how long it takes to get a dog to do what he saw Emmie doing... The tail is wagging and her head is up! If Emmie makes a mistake, I do not make a big deal, and we go back and start again. I have found that she is very much like her grandma, Cookie. She, like Cookie, needs a little "warm up" before working. Cookie's was to back up, then down, roll over, come to front, then go to heel... Emmie backs up, downs, fronts, goes to heel..it seems to "get her in the mood". None of my others have been like this... I am also working with the baby. She is a pleasure. Never has been sent off with a harsh conformation handler and hasn't learned how to shutdown. I am not going to squash her joie de vivre. My goal has always been to have dogs that wanted to work with me, I never wanted it to be compulsory or forced...


----------

