# Should we be concerned over grade 1 elbows?



## cjryan (Jul 3, 2015)

Hi everyone! We feel that it's time to add another golden to our family and we've started to visit some breeders in Ontario. 

This past weekend we visited a breeder that was highly recommended to us (and one that is also highly praised on these forums). 

One concern that we had was that two of the three girls that are going to be bred have "Grade 1" elbows. Otherwise, the dogs are beautiful and have wonderful temperaments. I loved everything about the breeder but the "Grade 1" elbows have me a little concerned...

I know there are debates regarding the breeding of dogs with "Grade 1" elbows and whether there is an increased risk for their puppies to develop dysplastic elbows later in life.

Any guidance would be much appreciated!


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## Moonbridge (Aug 26, 2014)

Hello!
Fellow KW person here!! 

I'd love to know who you've visited and tell you a bit about our journey. We've been on a waiting list now for almost a year and our puppy should be born at the end of July!! To say I'm excited is the biggest understatement ever!!!

I spoke to my vet who owns goldens and spoke to as many golden owners and vets as I possibly could doing research. My vet said of course clearances are important, doing your research is always important but you can still never be 100% guaranteed of anything. Make sure to meet the dogs in person before puppies are involved. (You've obviously done that!!) Talk to owners that have older dogs from that breeder and find out what issues they've had if any. If you love the dogs and the temperments then go with your gut. 

We ultimately chose a breeder that we are very happy with so far. I've met a few of her dogs by chance and everyone has been lovely. If I go back far enough in her lines, I can find dogs that were related to my own golden from 1985!!! My goldie lived 14 years and was truly my best friend. She was tiny and had severe allergies but to me she was perfect!

All the best with your search!!! I'm hoping to meet lots of fellow Golden owners in this area once I'm out walking and frolicking with our little one. 

Moonbridge


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It would concern me as well.
Welcome to the forum!


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## cjryan (Jul 3, 2015)

Moonbridge said:


> Hello!
> Fellow KW person here!!
> 
> I'd love to know who you've visited and tell you a bit about our journey. We've been on a waiting list now for almost a year and our puppy should be born at the end of July!! To say I'm excited is the biggest understatement ever!!!
> ...


Thank you! Great to hear that you're soon getting your puppy after a long wait. Very exciting! 

We visited Braefield in Cayuga and Catherine was fantastic. I really did love the dogs, but as I mentioned, the Grade 1 elbows on two of the females that are being bred worried me. I'm no expert on the various clearances, but I tend to be very cautious by nature. 

You're certainly right that you can never be 100% guaranteed of everything. 

Who is your vet, by the way? We take our dogs to Dr. Boa in Waterloo and I know that he has goldens.


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## cjryan (Jul 3, 2015)

hotel4dogs said:


> It would concern me as well.
> Welcome to the forum!


Thank you!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

It would concern me as well. There has been a great discussion on the topic of breeding Grade 1s on one of the FB forums I am on. At least one breeder had very detailed records on what was produced when she did this, and what was produced coming down from it. Some of the breeders go further and will have a CT done to determine if it truly is elbow dysplasia.

You could talk to the breeder and ask her reasoning for doing the breedings given the Grade 1s. What kind of research has she done? What do the elbows look like behind the girls? Behind the boys she will be using?

It's a slippery slope to be sure, and one I am not comfortable with.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It would be a large concern for me as well.


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## cjryan (Jul 3, 2015)

Tahnee GR said:


> It would concern me as well. There has been a great discussion on the topic of breeding Grade 1s on one of the FB forums I am on. At least one breeder had very detailed records on what was produced when she did this, and what was produced coming down from it. Some of the breeders go further and will have a CT done to determine if it truly is elbow dysplasia.
> 
> You could talk to the breeder and ask her reasoning for doing the breedings given the Grade 1s. What kind of research has she done? What do the elbows look like behind the girls? Behind the boys she will be using?
> 
> It's a slippery slope to be sure, and one I am not comfortable with.


Thank you for the reply. Good suggestions...I looked into the boys that will be bred with the girls with grade 1 elbows and they have "normal (or 0,0?)" ratings, I believe. It still makes me feel uncomfortable (even though I've just started to learn about the various clearances). 

We plan to visit other breeders in Ontario that have been recommended to us, too (Brevmac and Goldnote).


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## Moonbridge (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi cjryan,

I sent you a PM. I do know Dr. Boa well as I used to work there (in the 90's) He runs a wonderful clinic and I love the vets/staff there. I am a client there as well 

So much information, it can all be overwhelming. 

Enjoy the beautiful sunshine!!
Moonbridge


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

It would concern me also. A breeder I greatly respect once told me that it can be very difficult to recover a breeding program from any item you choose to let slide for "just this one breeding." It quickly becomes an accepted exception to the rule.


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## LUCKYme (Mar 29, 2015)

I would be very concerned and look at other breeders. You do not want to take a chance on dysplastic elbows.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

About a year before I got my youngest, I had been very close to putting money down for a puppy at a different breeder.... I like this breeder. She has a very special dog who basically looks like my Jacks. Very similar head. This dog would have been the grandfather of this litter and I was very interested for that reason. The sire she chose for this litter also had the conformation titles (basically so the dog would LOOK like golden retriever - which was all I was interested in at the time) and also the obedience background I wanted. 

Going by the reputation of the breeder and the litter and then hearing what she had to say when I interviewed her, I asked to be put on the waiting list and everything was all good until I really looked at the clearances on OFA. Saw the missing elbow clearance and came right back to the breeder, only to learn the dog had failed his elbow clearances (grade 1 unilateral). 

Having owned a dog bred back before elbows were added to the necessary clearance list for the breed, I know what it's like owning a dog with elbow dysplasia. It's terrible. All the more when you have breeders who are unwilling to take any responsibility for what they have bred. Elbow dysplasia is pretty much the #1 issue with these dogs where the breeders blame the owners when it happens. Our case, the breeder told us we should not have allowed our puppy to run freely on our property. This was "too much exercise" and she basically carried on about these dogs having to be carried up stairs and kept on leash through their puppyhood. 

All of this was part of the conversation when I was interviewing the breeder prior to asking to be put on the list. What was aggravating was the fact that never once did this breeder come out and tell me that the sire had elbow dysplasia (because in her opinion it wasn't elbow dysplasia). To me, it seemed like she was keeping it hush-hush and hoping nobody noticed. It was deceptive. All the more so, knowing that after she had me back out and probably other experienced homes as well... she shopped the xrays around until she got some kind of clearances elsewhere. All this because she didn't want to "waste" a perfectly good dog.

FWIW - the litter ended up being a mostly pet owned litter - meaning that it ended up being an "unverifiable experiment" since most pet homes do not have hips and elbows checked unless the dogs are really limping. This does not tell you anything about the joint health of these dogs since they don't always show pain or discomfort unless they are in a LOT of pain. My older boy has bilateral (mild) hip dysplasia. This is a very active dog who before injuring his back a couple years was jumping 25" for obedience and has a ton of muscle. A lot of people assume the main sign of dysplasia or arthritis when the dog isn't limping is muscle wasting or lack of muscle... and that's not always the case, particularly if a dog is kept active. 

I do know that at least one of the puppies who was somebody's pick puppy ended up failing both hips and elbows. Which happens even when the dogs have all their clearances, but it was extra noteworthy to me since I pulled out of buying a puppy from this litter. 

*** I'd probably feel differently about all this if -

1. The breeder ensures that every puppy from this litter gets the hips and elbows OFA'd. And does the same for the next generation, if they'd kept a puppy and bred that puppy. 

2. The breeder does not put all the blame on the pet owners if the dogs develop elbow dysplasia. You can talk all you want about "injuries", but even there... there has to be a weakness in the joint to cause that specific kind of injury with one dog, unless something REALLY bad happened to cause an injury. Dogs going up and down stairs, running up hills, jumping off river banks, etc.... these are things that should not cause injuries and don't with most puppies. IMO.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I have mixed feelings. I had a dog with grade 3 disaster elbows, from a solid history of good clearances, and I also took a chance on a bitch with grade 1 elbows, gambled, and lost. On the other hand uniltateral elbows seem to always have injury stories and I never know to believe or not- the OFA sometimes makes decisions about elbows being grade 1 when I cannot see the issue bit other times I do see the osteophytes or FCP. I might take the chance if it was a breeding I was otherwise crazy for without any other qualms if all the other siblings were fine and parents/ grandparents too.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

A number of questions come to mind is your situation cjryan.
The girls that have been diagnosed with grade 1 elbows. 
Are they related? If so how closely? Mother/daughter, littermates, aunt/neice?
Are they both bilateral?

I will tell of my limited experience with grade 1 elbows. The bitch I kept from my first litter 14 1/2 years ago was diagnosed by OFA as bilateral grade 1 DJD. I sent the very same films to OVC (Ontario Veterinarian College) and they came back from them as both elbows clear. I did breed that bitch. One of the boys from that litter was also diagnosed as grade 1 bilateral DJD. Again sent the exact same films to OVC and again both elbows were rated clear. The bitch (Lucy) I kept lived to over 12 1/2 years old. She never showed any lameness any time during her life. She can see by her titles in my signature below she was not a couch potato.  The boy lives with my daughter and is over 9 1/2 years old. He attained his MACh at 8 years of age, has his Junior Hunter title and has also never shown any kind of lameness in his lifetime. 

That all said I would advise you to look for a pup elsewhere as you have voiced your concern numerous times in this thread. If you are not head over heels in love with the dogs and breeder doing the breeding you will likely never feel comfortable with a pup from it. 

good luck in your search!! :wavey:


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

You are fortunate that your thread has received responses from some very respected breeders and forum members who have very diverse experience, a lot of years between them. When they say it makes them uncomfortable, it gets my attention.

A good breeder is a support for the life of the dog. You want to have a good relationship with someone whose judgment you trust. If I've learned anything, it's that it's better to wait a year or more for a puppy from a good, rock solid breeder than to compromise or go against your gut feeling. There may be no guarantees with living creatures but it makes sense to give yourself and your puppy the best possible odds at a healthy happy life.


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## cjryan (Jul 3, 2015)

Thanks for all these great replies! It's very much appreciated. 

The two girls are not related from my understanding and from what I can see on the website. They are however, both bilateral (elbows are listed as ED 1:1). 

We are visiting a kennel called Brevmac in Ontario tomorrow and hoping to arrange a visit at Goldnote. I've read many positive comments about Goldnote on these forums. Does anyone have any experience dealing with Brevmac?

Thanks again!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

cjryan said:


> Thanks for all these great replies! It's very much appreciated.
> 
> The two girls are not related from my understanding and from what I can see on the website. They are however, both bilateral (elbows are listed as ED 1:1).
> 
> ...



I would recommend you start a new thread about this, you will likely get more responses than from it buried in this thread.


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