# Ideal protein and fat level for 1 yr old



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Too bad you will not be able to continue feeding the food you like due to it not being available there. I currently drive almost 60 miles to buy my Fromm(which I purchase from a distributor). I hope you can find something else you like. Before I fed Fromm, I tried lots of different foods. The one I had the most success with was Taste Of The Wild. I am sure you will get many recomendations from people on here. What region are you moving to?


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Luccagr said:


> I tried searching in the forum but couldn't find this. *I'm wondering what is the ideal protein and fat level for a 1 yr old golden?* I'm currently feeding him fromm salmon veg but would have to eventually switch him to something else when I relocate cos' Fromm is not sold there. So thought i'll start doing my research now so that I can transition him properly. I love fromm but what a pity that it's not sold at where i'll be going.


There are many different opinions regarding ideal protein and fat. I would say a safe and happy medium for most one year old goldens would be:

27% - 34% protein
16% - 20% fat

A lot of different kibbles fall within those parameters. One year old dogs are still growing and maturing; so they benefit from good amounts of quality meat protein as well as fat.


----------



## kcapone (Jan 23, 2011)

After much research, we chose Fromm 4 star and love it. Not really near us, but I order online from doggiefood.com, they are priced the same as my store 45 mins from me. and offer FREE SHIPPING over $50. so 1 large bag usually does it. Great experiences with them.


----------



## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

MyBentley said:


> There are many different opinions regarding ideal protein and fat. I would say a safe and happy medium for most one year old goldens would be:
> 
> 27% - 34% protein
> 16% - 20% fat
> ...


I agree with MyBentley - the food I feed my 10 month old has 28% (animal) protein and 18% (animal) fat.


----------



## AnimalLuver (Oct 13, 2011)

It depends on whether you're feeding grain free or grain inclusive foods. 

Grain free foods with more meat content (1st 3-5 ingredients meat or meat meal sources) will have a higher percentage of protein, and that is OK/good because the protein is coming from meat, while grain inclusive foods that have less than 3-5 first ingredients being meat should have a lower percentage, if the percentage is higher than 25% that is not good because some of that protein is coming from grains, it's a completely different protein that dogs arent' meant to digest.

This is some information from a dog nutritionist in another forum:

As there is no such thing as too much protein for a growing pup, and the old myth that it caused growth disorders has been debunked many times over the years by vets, scientific studies, and nutrionalists. Before such novel changes were made to the dog food industry, almost all high protein foods were high in calories and mineral contents as the dangers of these were not known or properly research so the average owners of giant breeds and large breed puppies were told to stay clear and the finger was pointed towards protein. Why? It along with fat content were almost always printed on bags, but things like calorie content and mineral contents were often, and in some cases still are, not included on the bags of kibble.

The long answer is... 
There is no such thing as too much protein in the canine body, and any protein that cannot be used for growth, energy and maintenance is excreted through the kidneys. This is the beauty of our companions tho, they are made to process high amounts of protein and there is absolutely no harm in the excretion of protein through the kidneys in a healthy dog that has healthy and functioning kidneys. Carbohydrates are actually the least effective means of energy in the canine body and are more readily converted to fat and stored within the body. High carbohydrate dog foods are a cheap way to meat the energy requirements of canines in commercial food. While they do make easily digestible energy they are far from the ideal source of energy. They often lead to health issues in dogs such as obesity and when the amount of carbohydrates digested exceed the amount of energy needed by the body it is then converted to fat. This is not the case with proteins that are in excess flushed from the body. Thus showing an advantage to high protein, low carbohydrate foods.

Here is a break down of the calories per cup for a few different foods:
TOTW Pacific Stream: 360 cal/c 24%protein
TOTW High Prairie: 370 cal/c 34% protein
Eagle Pack Puppy: 377 cal/c 23% protein
Eagle Pack Hollistic: 403 cal/c 22%protein
Canidae ALS: 468 cal/c 24% protein
Orijen 6fish: 460 cal/c 44%protein
Chicken Soup Adult: 336 cal/c 24% protein
Acana: 375cal/c 23% protein

What is interesting to note is that the protein levels are not directly related to the caloric levels in foods. It is everything else in the food that is pushing the caloric intakes up and down. I think this is one of the main reasons that myself and others feel protein is of the lesser importance in food and feeding it properly you are at no more risk then feeding any other food.

It seems the main cause of true HoD and Hip Dysplasia according to research is caloric intake vs caloric usage. If you are feeding your pup too many calories or supplementing his diet with too many treats/scraps/ supplements you are a likely candidate for growth disorders.

Much of the old school of thought was protein was the contributing factor to growth disorders. Further testing and research have shown this to be false. The main contributors to growth problems are mineral amounts (calcium and phosphorus) and caloric intake v. caloric usage. Many puppy foods overload their kibbles with calories in attempts to stimulate growth, but with dane puppies you really want a moderate calorie amount and moderate calcium and phosphorus. It has been shown that too little protein can cause more problems than too much. Protein causes muscle growth but has no direct relation to bone growth. If you keep your pup slender and healthy then the stress on the joints should be minimal.

One thing to consider when looking at no grain foods with higher protein % is your dog is not consuming on average more protein then he would daily on a 22-25% protein kibble. Your dog eats less normally half or 2/3s the amount of a no grain food that he would eat of a grain inclusive food. 

8c grain inclusive at 22% protein and 400cal = 1.76c protein and 3200 calories

5c grain free at 32% protein and 370cal = 1.6c protein and 1850 calories

If you are feeding around 9-10 cups you would be feeidng around 6c- 7c TOTW. I personally would not feed more than 7c a day unless my dog was showing weight loss.

What you find is even tho the protein % is roughly the same daily intake as it is for the grain inclusive you are consuming much less calories. Hence taking some of the stress off your pup's growth. This is because they are getting all the protein and other nutrients they need from a smaller amount of ingested food and none of the waste they get in other foods. Also, meat protein is much easier on the digestive system of a dog than grain proteins. Because of the length of the digestive tract (being short in dogs) they are made to digest meat proteins. Grain proteins take longer in the digestive system to break down and can often lead to a lot of the kibble's grain nutrients never being utilized. 

Also for a long time it was thought that too high of protein actually was a detriment in older dogs because it would hurt the kidneys. Studies actually showed in recent years that was not the case and older dogs need as much or more protein than growing puppies and that there was no detriment to feeding them it. 

As far as why you see the same thing over and over on a lot of websites is because it was standard for so long. Think about something like the common belief that it was needed that you eat fish once a week to be healthy. This was believed and widespread throughout nutrition and then new research was done. They discovered due to mercury levels in the sea this was a horrible idea and you should cut back your fish intake and eat low mercury fish. It took a long time for that the be accepted and I still know families that do not believe it.

Quote:
*RELATIONSHIP OF NUTRITION TO DEVELOPMENTAL SKELETAL DISEASE IN YOUNG DOGS*
*Phillip W. Toll, DVM, MS *
*Daniel C. Richardson, DVM, Diplomate ACVS *​
*Mark Morris Institute, Topeka, Kansas*
Developmental skeletal disease is a group of skeletal abnormalities that affect fast growing, large breed dogs. This is a multifactorial disease that has genetic, environmental, and nutritional components. All of these components will be discussed, however, our focus is nutrition. Nutrient excesses (e.g. Excess mineral supplementation) and rapid growth often exacerbate musculoskeletal disorders. Lack of careful genetic monitoring can result in the introduction and propagation of disorders that are all but impossible to eliminate (e.g. hip dysplasia, patella luxation, osteochondrosis). Trauma, whether obvious (e.g. hit by car) or subtle (e.g. excessive weight) can affect the relatively weak growth centers (e.g. *angular* *limb* deformities). ​The musculoskeletal system is in a constant state of turnover or change throughout life, the rate of turnover is of course greatest early in life, during the growth phase. Skeletal growth is most rapid in the first few months of life and slows through the first year until skeletal maturity (about 12 months for most breeds). Because the metabolic activity of the musculoskeletal system is so great during the first 12 months of life, the skeletal system is more susceptible to insult, both physical and metabolic. The physical manifestation of these insults is lameness in the young animal and potentially altered growth which may affect the locomotion and/or soundness of the adult. ​The *role* of nutrition in developmental skeletal disorders is complex. Rate of growth, specific nutrients, food consumption, and feeding methods have all been shown to influence skeletal disease. The large and giant breeds are the most susceptible to developmental skeletal disease, presumably because of their accelerated growth rate. Dietary deficiencies are of minimal concern in this age of commercial diets specifically prepared for young, growing dogs. Problems associated with dietary excess are far more likely, especially if supplements (minerals, vitamins, and energy) are combined with a high quality growth food. Specific categories of nutrients play a *role* in developmental skeletal disease. They are discussed below. ​*ENERGY* ​Rapid growth in large and giant breed dogs increases their risk of skeletal disease. Large and giant breed dogs are genetically programmed to grow at a very fast rate. Excessive dietary energy may support a growth rate that is too fast for proper development of the skeleton. Dietary energy is used by the growing puppy for body maintenance, activity and growth. ​The amount needed for any individual depends on breed, age, neuter status and activity levels. In general, growing puppies require twice as much dietary energy as adults. The need is greatest right after birth and decreases as the dog grows and matures. Because individual needs can vary widely energy or food dose calculations can only be used as general guidelines or starting points that must be modified based on clinical evaluation of each individual. ​The ultimate guide is based on physical evaluation. The ribs should be easily palpable beneath the skin and a thin layer of subcutaneous tissue. An hour glass conformation or waist should be present when viewed from above. Limiting intake to maintain these physical parameters will not impede reaching ultimate genetic potential. It will only reduce intake, fecal production, obesity and lower the risk of skeletal disease. Further research is needed into breed differences in energy requirements. ​*PROTEIN* ​Unlike other species, *protein excess has not been demonstrated to have any negative consequences* *on calcium metabolism or* *skeletal development in the dog.* It has been shown in the Great Dane that a protein level of 14.6% (dry matter basis) with 13% of the dietary energy coming from the protein is marginally sub optimal. When compared to higher protein levels, there was a significant decrease in body weight, plasma albumen and plasma urea. A minimum level of protein in the diet depends on digestibility, amino acid composition, proper ratios among the essential amino acids and their availability from the protein source. Energy density of the food and the physiological state of the dog plays a *role* as well. A growth diet should contain >25% protein (dry matter basis) of high biologic value supplying at least 16% of the dietary energy. In the normal dog, dietary protein requirements decrease with age. 


Good luck...Fromm is a great food! I don't have it locally available, and wish I did, but I feed Orijen because where I live it's only $60/30lb bag...Orijen/Acana, TOTW, Fromm, Natures Variety, NOW!-Petcurean would all be my favorites.

Beware foods that contain a lot of corn, by products, ash, and watch the calcium/phosphorus ratio (aim for 1.2:1.0 calciumhosphorus).

Hope that helps.


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

AnimalLuver:_ It depends on whether you're feeding grain free or grain inclusive foods. 

Grain free foods with more meat content (1st 3-5 ingredients meat or meat meal sources) will have a higher percentage of protein, and that is OK/good because the protein is coming from meat, while grain inclusive foods that have less than 3-5 first ingredients being meat should have a lower percentage, if the percentage is higher than 25% that is not good because some of that protein is coming from grains, it's a completely different protein that dogs arent' meant to digest.
_

That is faulty reasoning. 

Grain-free or grain inclusive kibble in and of itself has nothing to do with determining a good protein level for a puppy.

Ingredients are listed in order of their pre-cooked weight starting with the heaviest quantity first. The manufacturers in the U.S. don't give the percentage of any of these individual ingredients.

One kibble could list only "chicken meal" followed by rice. The chicken meal could represent 30% of the total formula.

A second kibble could list "chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal" followed by peas. The first three ingredients combined might represent only 25% of the total formula. There is just less of each one.


----------



## Amberbark (Oct 5, 2011)

*Natural Balance Potato and Duck OK?*

We feed NB Potato and Duck to all of our dogs. Are the protein and fats percentages below ok? Vet said that it is fine, but not sure if he/she is aware of the protein/fat percentages :wavey:.

*GUARANTEED ANALYSIS* Crude Protein 21.0% minimum Crude Fat 10.0% minimum Crude Fiber 3.0% maximum Moisture 10.0% maximum Calcium 1.0% minimum Phosphorus 0.8% minimum  Omega-3 Fatty Acids  0.5% minimum Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) 0.01% minimum Omega-6 Fatty Acids  1.7% minimum


----------



## MyBentley (May 5, 2009)

Amberbark: I think most people would consider 21% protein and 10% fat to be on the very low end. None of the dogs I've ever had would have done well with that low of protein and fat.

From my experience, it' hard for dogs to maintain a healthy coat and skin with such little fat. I personally don't feed foods with less than 15% fat. Protein is needed for good muscle tone and muscle repair; and 24% protein is the minimum I'll feed my dogs. Maybe some other members will add their own thoughts on this.


----------



## Amberbark (Oct 5, 2011)

MyBentley said:


> Amberbark: I think most people would consider 21% protein and 10% fat to be on the very low end. None of the dogs I've ever had would have done well with that low of protein and fat.
> 
> From my experience, it' hard for dogs to maintain a healthy coat and skin with such little fat. I personally don't feed foods with less than 15% fat. Protein is needed for good muscle tone and muscle repair; and 24% protein is the minimum I'll feed my dogs. Maybe some other members will add their own thoughts on this.


MyBentley, I have been doing some additional research and on a couple of sites, it was recommended to add a low-carb canned food or fresh meat on a regular basis. Would it be a good idea to add some cottage cheese? I'm just so cautious to prevent some allergy and stomach issues. Thanks. :wavey:


----------



## Amberbark (Oct 5, 2011)

I guess per Dog Food Review board for NB Duck and Potato: 

*Natural Balance Limited Ingredients Diets
The Bottom Line​*

Judging by its ingredients alone, Natural Balance L.I.D. appears to be an *above-average* dry dog food.
But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to *estimate* the product’s *meat content* before determining a final rating.
The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 23%, a fat level of 11% and estimated carbohydrates of about 58%.
As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 23% and a mean fat level of 12%.


----------



## mr3856a (Jan 19, 2008)

AnimalLuver said:


> It depends on whether you're feeding grain free or grain inclusive foods.
> 
> Grain free foods with more meat content (1st 3-5 ingredients meat or meat meal sources) will have a higher percentage of protein, and that is OK/good because the protein is coming from meat, while grain inclusive foods that have less than 3-5 first ingredients being meat should have a lower percentage, if the percentage is higher than 25% that is not good because some of that protein is coming from grains, it's a completely different protein that dogs arent' meant to digest.
> 
> ...


If I could thank you 1,000 times for this post I would.


----------

