# National Retriever Championship, Nov 13 - 19



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I hope you'll keep this thread going, I would love to see the breakdowns and of course to root for your team next year


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I look forward to discussing this with you. While I'm training Proof to ultimately one day run all age set ups I am still learning how these concepts we learn now relate to those set ups later. This is so beyond anything in the hunt test world and that is really all I had any prior experience and it still really blows my mind. I believe it will blow this forums mind as well if they are truly interested in understanding what these amazing athlete dogs are capable of. 

It is a disappointment there are no Golden's this year competing. Hopefully next year some of our great Golden's will be there. At the National level it comes down to a lot of luck as all the dogs are so talented already. One day it is a dream of mine to have a dog there. And definitely a dream I'll be there in the National Amateur.


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## smp (Apr 27, 2016)

Do you know if there are any videos available to watch?


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

smp said:


> Do you know if there are any videos available to watch?


I suspect that they will post some videos, as it typically the case. Due to the distances of the retrieves, however, it's hard to get a really good video of the dogs' performance of the retrieves, but we can get an idea. Plus, the still photos and the descriptions of the performances are very informative.

The videos get better and better each year...we may even see some drone-shots.
Already posted are a couple of videos in which trainers/handlers are interviewed, they are worth watching.

In the already-posted pre-National training photos, you may note the assembled training groups ... several of the TOP SHELF PROS have joined together for this week of training. This happens every year, generally with the same pros joining each other for the event. [There's often an "Amateurs Only" training group as well, for those of us who train our own dogs and qualify without the involvement of a pro. It's typically a pretty small group because so few amateurs qualify for this event.]


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

If you want to feel some jealousy, check out the 2016 NRC Training Grounds Booklet ... there are some beautiful properties being used for pre-National training. The Carruth's water world, near the back of the booklet, looks incredible ... reminds me of Rex Carr's "CL2."


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

and they're off! I love Jamie. I hope she does well


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

FTgoldens....So on Thursday R told me that often times the dogs mark the gunner, not the mark on long retired guns. Walking back from the throw will often tell a lot about if the dog marked the bird or the gun. Reading the blog report seems to show that indeed a lot of dogs marked off the gun on the LR. I asked H about this and he said it would appear so. What do you think about that?


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> FTgoldens....So on Thursday R told me that often times the dogs mark the gunner, not the mark on long retired guns. Walking back from the throw will often tell a lot about if the dog marked the bird or the gun. Reading the blog report seems to show that indeed a lot of dogs marked off the gun on the LR. I asked H about this and he said it would appear so. What do you think about that?


Yes indeed, dogs will often remember the location of the gunner more than the location of the mark. 
Interestingly, in Derby stakes, marking off the gunner can sometimes get the dog in trouble because (unfortunately!) hooking a gunner in a Derby will often knock the pup down a placement or two or three; however, once the dog starts running all-age stakes, particularly with retired gunners, hooking a gunner "ain't no big deal" ... in fact, many all age judges believe that a dog cannot hook a retired gunner because it is, well ... not there (at least in theory). And to take this point one step farther, some pros teach their dogs to remember the location of the gunner by simply having a "gunner" in the field, have the gunner plant a bird within throwing distance of the gunner, have the gunner move into what would be typical throwing position, then showing the dog the gunner, then retiring the gunner, then sending the dog for the "mark." Of course, there would be no "mark" because the gunner didn't throw a bird, so the only thing that the dog can rely on is the location of the gunner, which is gone by the time the dog is sent for the "mark." (This drill also helps in situations when your dog misses seeing a throw.)
FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

(I'm not at the NRC, so my thoughts are based only on what I read and the photos I see on the blog.)

The first series was a bit out of the ordinary for a national, which typically starts with a double and a blind. So a triple was unusual, but it was a good test. The first of the difficulties in the first series was the use of two hen pheasants, which throw off almost no scent, on the two retired marks. The second difficulty was asking the dogs to run along the top of a levee when en route to the middle retired mark ... dogs do not like running along the top of ridges like that. Six dogs were eliminated by the first series (it stinks to be dropped so early!).

As for the second series, the middle retired and right retired marks are very tight, plus the line to each of those marks goes over a small peninsula ... it takes some guts for a dog to cross that peninsula twice. (Of course, you pretty much have to pull that short right retired out as the second retrieve.)
On this test, the dogs which aren't doing well are generally going to the right on the middle retired. When looking at the test diagram and reading the description, this reaction would be expected. A few will likely avoid taking that same line and push off to the right real early when en route to the middle retired. Then those that start out taking the line between the left flyer and the right retired are likely to suck around behind that right retired after they pass it ... that's just what dogs do (i.e., they will suck around behind an object, whether a tree, a point of cover or the location of an already picked up bird) ... in addition to that tendency, they will be pushed to the right by the mere presence of the water on the left ... plus, once they pass the right retired, the area to the right looks like a beautiful boulevard to run into ... and finally, the slight breeze from the left will push them to the right.

FTGoldens


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Yikes! Series 2 is tight, tight, scary tight. 
I thought that they might get pull to the left on the water out by the LR but it looks like to many early factors are pulling them right before they get there. 

How is hooking a gun scored in the Qual?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Ha! 70 yard flyers!! This is crazy because on Thursday R and me were discussing all the set ups about judging and I asked what about a close flyer, how bad is that for the dog? I wanted to talk about how influential that is when screwing up a dogs concentration on the far marks and all of that. He said, that is kind of old school, they used to do it way more than they do it now but that it can be deadly. I said, around 50 60 yards and he said, oh no, further than that at least 100. Well, I guess the judges heard our conversation because 70 yards is really close! 

Another thing is the splash on the bird!! R has been noticing a pattern right now about birds falling in the water again. Its a new "fade" going around here (I don't know about other parts of the country) and boy oh boy those birds landing in the water are really messing with all different aged dogs!! This test is LOADED! I can't wait to see R and talk about all of this!

And just to make sure I'm doing this right, cause I just woke up and looked, I would go for the flyer, then the easy right bird and down the middle for the long punch bird? I don't know it doesn't look that way on this test. 

Oh look here is Al discussing it with diagrams, broke it down pretty well. hope he has the "midas" touch this week, ha ha. 

[YOUTUBE]



[YOUTUBE]

And as for hooking guns in derby. Well, it depends on the test. AT the easier tests its a deal breaker. At a Baker test (and that is what they call them down here when Baker shows up) hooking a gun can still get a first place.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

hollyk said:


> Yikes! Series 2 is tight, tight, scary tight.
> I thought that they might get pull to the left on the water out by the LR but it looks like to many early factors are pulling them right before they get there.
> 
> How is hooking a gun scored in the Qual?


That's a tough question for field trial judging because, unlike a hunt test where the dogs are judged against a standard (i.e., Pass/Fail), each dog's performance is judged against the other dogs' performances.
That said, hooking a gun will be noted in the drawing each judge makes in his/her book, but it's not a huge deal ... and if all other dogs hook the gun, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever. 
There's a not infrequent discussion about hooking a gun that goes like this ... if the throw is severe angle back and Dog 1 passes near the gun but behind it, is that better or worse than the dog that "bananas" into the mark from the front side of the gunner? 
And as I mentioned before, if the gun is retired, there's no such thing as "hooking the gun" because it's not present.
FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Holy Cow, what a difference a day makes!

For some reason which is not apparent from what is posted so far, the test has become more challenging ... there's now a higher % of handles/double-handles/pick-ups!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Double blinds (one land, one water) for the 3rd and 4th series.
Notably, the judges did not "accessorize" either blind with a poison bird, dry shot or gunner in the field.

The land blind appears to require that the dog have discipline to hold a line on the side of a slope; it also sounds like a loopy sit could get a dog in trouble.
The water blind, with a no-see'm entry, has only a sliver of water for the dog to get in, and that sliver seems to be out at a pretty good distance ... one of the test dogs missed the sliver.

It's very difficult to set up blinds, especially land blinds, to challenge the dogs so much as to cause an elimination ... they are just so darned good on blinds!
But missing the water will get a dog tossed, and probably getting lost behind a mound will be a big ding.
It'll be interesting to see how this one goes.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

The drone shots of the 3rd and 4th series are great and show how far out that corner of the pond is from the line.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Got it, retired gunners.

I was wondering pick up order in the 2nd too. In my hunt test training for this series would pick up outside, outside, inside. (We do train for primary selection too have that in my pocket.)
In FT's is it generally long bird first?????

Here in the 2nd I think Flyer first no matter how you train, too in your face. 
It looks like some were picking up LR next. How amazing to be able to communicate that line past the tight MR. 

Off to look at the double blinds.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Holly, where I'm at in training this is how I'm told to pick up the birds. I'm told to pick up the go bird, then the short bird and then the long bird last. The reason for this is because if the dog is going to the long bird, it might change its mind and go to the short bird. That is fine, but then it burns its line to the long bird as in his head is thinking he already went that way for the short bird. As well, the dog picks up the long bird and should know better than to go back to the short bird and bounce off of it to go get the long bird. 

NOW this is just what I "think" I'm understanding. Ftgoldens is the one to ask he knows 100% more than me!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

That's how I would have attempted it too Shelby. 
Clear out the close stuff, then try to get them to focus on the long. 
Wonder what was happening on the line with the dogs that picked up LR before the MR. Were the handlers working for it or were the dogs just looking out and giving it? 
So interesting.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

hollyk said:


> I was wondering pick up order in the 2nd too. In my hunt test training for this series would pick up outside, outside, inside. (We do train for primary selection too have that in my pocket.)
> In FT's is it generally long bird first?????


Personally, I don't subscribe to the outside, outside, middle philosophy ... that'll get you in big trouble with an in-line triple, where you'd need to get the middle bird second. Generally, the order suggested by MOP (shortest, next shortest, then longest) is followed, although when you have a long flyer as the last bird down that pretty much goes out the window as well. So, it's best to teach the dog to go where sent ... PERIOD! At least mix up the order in training so the dog will be comfortable when picking up birds in a variety of orders.



hollyk said:


> It looks like some were picking up LR next. How amazing to be able to communicate that line past the tight MR.


Don't be too impressed with that communication ... I can guarantee with 100% confidence that the handlers wanted to get that shorter mark second, but their dogs missed the short mark and kept on trucking (remember that then scent cone was on the right side of the marks in that test, so it wasn't given away by the scent if the dog was missing the mark to the left side).

FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

all I can say is that land blind along a slope...Jamie is right, a$$ pucker is high!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Pat Burns's 3rd/4th series video interviews of Ty and Dave Rorem, and Chris Ledford are very good ... especially Dave's interview. They are both worth spending the time to watch and listen.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

FTGoldens said:


> Personally, I don't subscribe to the outside, outside, middle philosophy ... that'll get you in big trouble with an in-line triple, where you'd need to get the middle bird second. Generally, the order suggested by MOP (shortest, next shortest, then longest) is followed, although when you have a long flyer as the last bird down that pretty much goes out the window as well. So, it's best to teach the dog to go where sent ... PERIOD! At least mix up the order in training so the dog will be comfortable when picking up birds in a variety of orders


We do train primary selection and the order may of pick up can differ from dog to dog in the training day. Hmmm I wonder if just most of the HT I've run just lend themselves to O,O, I. I know I have picked up out of order birds in tests although most of the time it was Winter's choice but I few times by my choice. 




FTGoldens said:


> Don't be too impressed with that communication ... I can guarantee with 100% confidence that the handlers wanted to get that shorter mark second, but their dogs missed the short mark and kept on trucking (remember that then scent cone was on the right side of the marks in that test, so it wasn't given away by the scent if the dog was missing the mark to the left side).
> 
> FTGoldens


You're killing the illusion, I figured these were highly train FT dogs! 

You've got me thinking. Thanks for the discussion!


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Im loving loving the discussion, Holly!!! This is my whole life right now, I drive people crazy cause its all I think about! ha ha! So discussing it, is just fantastic


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Fifth Series!

As is typical, the fifth series is a big set of marks with a mixed bag and an honor ... the fifth is often where the going gets really tough (there's often a quad for the fifth). 
Interestingly, this test, which utilizes a couple of small ponds, looks more like a weekend field trial test than a national test, with the long mark out to 340 yards. 

It looks like the judges set the test up with the expectation that when en route to the middle retired (the last bird to retrieve in this set up) , the dogs would square their exit from the water, then push off the back side of the flyer gunners (i.e., go more to the left), and head to the left into the very inviting "no man's land" behind the middle retired gunners ... and the pheasant would not be scented from the left side because of the wind direction. 

From the early dogs' performance, it sounds like they are generally doing the test in a decent fashion ... the judges may not get as many answers out of the test as they had anticipated, but if conditions change, the test may get harder.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Well, something happened near the end of the day and made the test exceedingly hard! Five of the last six dogs handled on one of the marks, and one of those that handled was the WINNER of the 2016 National Amateur Retriever Championship! I suspect that visibility became an issue, but obviously I don't know since I'm not there. The last dog that ran was picked up because he couldn't see the handler to even handle to the bird...it'll be interesting to see if that dog gets a re-run (and if he does, then how would it make you feel if you were the dog right before that one and you didn't get a re-run?).
FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

There was the typical big cut after the 5th series - 18 dogs were eliminated from the competition.
45 dogs are going to the 6th series, which will be a blind.
FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Double blinds are being run: 6th series is a land blind, 7th is a water blind.
Despite strong, 20 - 30 mph cross wind, the dogs are doing very well on these blinds. The water blind presents a fairly routine picture to the dogs, so good performances are not surprising.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Personally, I don't subscribe to the outside, outside, middle philosophy ... that'll get you in big trouble with an in-line triple, where you'd need to get the middle bird second. Generally, the order suggested by MOP (shortest, next shortest, then longest) is followed, although when you have a long flyer as the last bird down that pretty much goes out the window as well. *So, it's best to teach the dog to go where sent* ... PERIOD! At least mix up the order in training so the dog will be comfortable when picking up birds in a variety of orders.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly what we worked on this past weekend. Mix up the triple order, and have the dog go where sent regardless of the order or where the dog wants to go. Also realized how important having a two sided dog helps in this.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

8th Series
A big, difficult, mixed-bag quad.
It's getting answers!
FTGoldens


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Wow, tough series.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I guess the high winds are causing a lot of no birds on the flyer.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm rooting for #31 Ali. My training partner has a girl sired out of him. 

They are running the 9th series.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Yes, I recently got to meet and pet all over Ali. He was such a sweetheart and Bobby was a nice guy. But I'm rooting for Mickey. I don't know what it is about this dog but I think I want a pup from him. It is just this gut feeling. But Bullet is a superb dog. 

My question is that the way the tests dog ran that order I didn't like it. So I've been thinking about all the training I've been learning and I'm thinking I would run the go bird then the flyer than the middle retired and last the left retired. My thinking is that they will bounce off that duck flyer and be on their bird. Plus they should know to stay in the water, and lastly the way the hen smells is not as heavy and they should kick off that line anyway. 

I don't know I must be over looking something. I did see Bullet ran it that way and it seemed to work for him.

Test seems to really be a training set up. We will see which dogs will be disciplined the most on this one.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

It takes me awhile to wrap my head around the descriptions but at least the photos help. 
My not sure how I would pick this up exactly but I think I would try it the way you thought about it Shelby. Go bird, then Flyer which would be a draw (especially for Winter). Also there seems to be good separation visually between the middle marks plus the MR is a pheasant hen with the wind not playing a big factor. It looks like the line to the MR goes though the AOF of the last bird down but it seemed like from what I read everyone was well schooled. Then pick up the LR which was on memory burn. These are big marks for me but I can see concepts I train.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Ali dropped in the 9th so now I'm rooting for the girls.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

My boy won!!!!!!! Mickey!!!!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Really felt bad for the handlers and the dogs that had no birds in the 8th series. Talk about rotten luck. Those dogs spent over 2 hours in holding blinds seeing not once but in some cases two times a no go flyer and sent back off the line. Those birds became poison birds to them and then they had to be handled once they finally got all the birds down. I cannot imagine!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> My boy won!!!!!!! Mickey!!!!


Charlie has played the FT game for a long time. 
One of his earlier dogs, Ranger, is a legend, truly a super star ... and now Charlie has another one.
Congrats to Mr. Hines and Mickey!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Really felt bad for the handlers and the dogs that had no birds in the 8th series. Talk about rotten luck. Those dogs spent over 2 hours in holding blinds seeing not once but in some cases two times a no go flyer and sent back off the line. Those birds became poison birds to them and then they had to be handled once they finally got all the birds down. I cannot imagine!


Yes, no-birds SUCK, especially on a flyer! But, it is something to train on. 
Just like having to pick up a flyer that's not dead, it's an unfortunate but not too infrequent happening at a field trial.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> MillionsofPeaches said:
> 
> 
> > My boy won!!!!!!! Mickey!!!!
> ...



Of course we all were talking about it today and both The big guys were schooling me in Ranger.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

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FTGoldens said:


> Yes, no-birds SUCK, especially on a flyer! But, it is something to train on.
> Just like having to pick up a flyer that's not dead, it's an unfortunate but not too infrequent happening at a field trial.


Yup, to some degree. Much easier to train for a cripple completely harder to improvise the test atmosphere and sit with a dog in that environment for 2 hours or more. One no-bird I can sort of see, but two no birds it is much much harder to train for.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

When pre-National training, we set up multiple holding blinds, put the dogs through the routine of waiting a long time, listening to sets of guns go off multiple times, and even train on multiple no-birds. In addition, multiple flyers per set-up, mixed bag of birds, cold honors, distractions in the gallery, are all on the checklist when leading up to running a National. Because I live in a non-mountainous area, when I was running the NARC in a mountainous region, I made sure that my dog learned to look up ... many dogs don't want to look up at a severe angle if they aren't used to doing so. One year the judges gave a double pop at a dead bird station and that seemed to mess up some dogs' rhythm, so we trained on that the following year. The checklist is extensive, but you try to cover all your bases, not wanting your dog to see something for the first time in its life when on the mat at a National.
FTGoldens


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## thomas&betts (May 13, 2014)

FTGoldens said:


> I am disappointed that we have *no Goldens* qualified for the 2016 National Retriever Championship! Frankly, that ticks me off quite a bit! I think I'll go home and develop a great training plan for 2017
> FTGoldens


When you get that training plan worked out, let a few of us "rookies" in on it! Far too many black dogs in the trials.Glad to see you're motivated again. T


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

FT thanks for sharing your thoughts on the NRC. It's always very educational to read your posts. I wish I knew more about FTs.


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