# Longer vs Shorter Snout??



## NFexec

Hello Everyone,

New member here - I am zeroing in on acquiring a puppy to join our family. I've done quite a bit of research and have spent time with the highly recommended and very top quality breeder we will be working with. Today, though, I realized I had a question about the length and stockiness of the snout. I see many pictures of GR's with a longer and sometimes thinner snout, and yet many of the pictures of champion dogs seem to have a boxier, shorter snout. 

What accounts for this difference (other than genetics of course)... at least in terms of popularity, reason for choosing the shorter variety over the longer one, etc.? It seems to me the vast majority of GR pictures posted here have the longer snout. 

Thanks

Doug


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## goldhaven

I think that the longer snout is seen more in the field line goldens and the shorter boxier snout is usually seen more in the conformation lines.


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## Cathy's Gunner

I'm no expert but that is what I thought too. My Gunner is more field and Honey would be comformation.


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## bioteach

We have had both - but our current golden, Nugget was bred from some excellent lines and his snout is broader and more compact. It's a matter of personal choice. Your pup won't know the difference or care about your nose!


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## Kylie

"And if you are wanting a Golden that looks like the dogs on this website, let me assure you that a Golden Retriever puppy that is altered early will have longer legs, less bone, a narrow and longer muzzle, be a couple inches taller and not resemble its littermates. It will NOT look like the dogs you are seeing here."

A quote from Sunbeam Golden Retrievers website on their article on early spray/neuter. I have found this to be true in my experience.


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## NFexec

Cathy's Gunner said:


> I'm no expert but that is what I thought too. My Gunner is more field and Honey would be comformation.


Thank you, Cathy. I actually not only saw your pic in the "picture thread" but copied it to show to my wife as a comparison. I guess I picked the right picture! 

Thanks to all. I do still wonder though, why SO many GR pictures here and elsewhere seem to be of the longer, thinner snout. I think goldhaven is right on in his (her?) remarks above. Perhaps there are just many more field GR's than show bred dogs? Or, do I have that all wrong? :uhoh:

Doug


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## vleffingwell

I have one of each - while the darker golden was from pet/champion lines, she was retired quite early after failing the eye exam. Her head grew quite a bit after she matured and has that long snout. Her dad had a beautiful short snout and I was hoping for that head. My new prospect has a very nice short snout and broad head, very typical of conformation dogs that are winning. Field dogs are chosen for ability and not so much looks. Keep in mind the puppy stage will make them look strange at times with the big ears and long snout but they are only growing. I dreaded the puppy ugly stage!


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## tippykayak

There's a bit of an optical illusion that takes place with muzzles depending on the angle the forehead makes (stop) and the height of the forehead. A lot of stop makes the muzzle look shorter, I think, and a dog with insufficient stop will give the impression of having a longer muzzle, even if the skull as a whole isn't actually longer.

Since the standard states that Goldens are supposed to have "stop, well defined," dogs who compete in conformation need to have good stop, which makes their muzzles have a clearly defined length on top, not blending into the rest of the skull.

I sort of reject the idea that it's a field vs. show thing. There are lots of performance dogs with lots of stop. You'd certainly see more dogs with less angle when you go anywhere outside conformation, just as you'd see more of any conformational flaws, but it's not an either/or thing at all.

I also think that there are lots of lanky Goldens out there with heads that aren't quite conformationally correct that come from neither competition field nor competition show dogs in their recent history. There seems to be a trend of calling such dogs "field" or "field-line" dogs, though I think that moniker is just as incorrect as calling them "show" dogs, since they have no competition of any kind in the recent history of the pedigree.

If somebody with more conformation knowledge wants to correct anything I've said or clarify any of my use of the language (particularly how to identify and talk about stop), please do. My knowledge of conformation is vast compared to people outside of dog world but positively teeny compared to anybody who actually shows.


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## drofen

So, Tippy, using your signature pic as an example, the pup on the right has slightly more stop than the one on the left in the picture?


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## tippykayak

drofen said:


> So, Tippy, using your signature pic as an example, the pup on the right has slightly more stop than the one on the left in the picture?


Yes! Jax (left) has good stop, and Comet (right) has slightly more. Here they are for more direct comparison. Comet (left, with his head on Jax) and Jax (right).


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## Swampcollie

The length does vary a little bit. When breeders are making decisions they need to keep the breeds stated purpose in mind. It's hard to hold and carry a large bird if your mouth is too small or weak in design. (Form follows function.)


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## MercyMom

I like to say that the boxier, stockier Goldens with show lines are shaped like coffee tables and that the thinner narrower Goldens with longer snouts are shaped like piano benches.


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## drofen

MercyMom said:


> I like to say that the boxier, stockier Goldens with show lines are shaped like coffee tables and that the thinner narrower Goldens with longer snouts are shaped like piano benches.


I think I got an end table...


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## Wyatt's mommy

Kylie said:


> "And if you are wanting a Golden that looks like the dogs on this website, let me assure you that a Golden Retriever puppy that is altered early will have longer legs, less bone, *a narrow and longer muzzle, *be a couple inches taller and not resemble its littermates. It will NOT look like the dogs you are seeing here."
> 
> A quote from Sunbeam Golden Retrievers website on their article on early spray/neuter. I have found this to be true in my experience.


LOL! That's a new one! I would like them to allow their new puppy owners to put this to the test. Then come back with that assurance LOL! My early altered Wyatt is a clone to the tee except in color to his unaltered dad. Perhaps it changes the color of their coat too :

It all comes down to genetics plain and simple.


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## kwhit

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! That's a new one! I would like them to allow their new puppy owners to put this to the test. Then come back with that assurance LOL! My early altered Wyatt is a clone to the tee except in color to his unaltered dad. Perhaps it changes the color of their coat too :
> 
> It all comes down to genetics plain and simple.


No, it's actually true. The growth plates close later when neutered early. Males will be taller and thinner. Maybe how much taller and how much thinner will depend on genetics, but it will happen. You can really tell on Danes if they were neutered early. It's really, _really_ obvious.

Maybe Wyatt would have been shorter than his dad and heavier if he had been neutered later.


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## Bentleysmom

kwhit said:


> No, it's actually true. The growth plates close later when neutered early. Males will be taller and thinner. Maybe how much taller and how much thinner will depend on genetics, but it will happen. You can really tell on Danes if they were neutered early. It's really, _really_ obvious.
> 
> Maybe Wyatt would have been shorter than his dad and heavier if he had been neutered later.


Then I need to make an appt for Bentley ASAP! He seems to be short for his age and heavy. Maybe if I act now his legs will grow and his tummy will shrink  (plus Ky would be really happy about it too)


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## Wyatt's mommy

kwhit said:


> Maybe Wyatt would have been shorter than his dad and heavier if he had been neutered later.


Or perhaps it just proves them wrong  

My Cody was a clone to his dad also and he was altered at 2. So I had one done early and one done late. No difference. They genetically took after their dads regardless of when they were neutered.

But the longer snout made me giggle.


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## Tuco

The main issue with early neutering is that some dogs growth plates won't seal, leaving them at a much higher risk for joint problems, maxs brother had this issue and quite frankly he was REALLY lanky 


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## Nairb

Tuco said:


> The main issue with early neutering is that some dogs growth plates won't seal, leaving them at a much higher risk for joint problems, maxs brother had this issue and quite frankly he was REALLY lanky
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Is there evidence of a cause and effect relationship in that instance? 


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## Dubraska

I have no idea and to be honest I hadn't noticed it before. I wouldn't even know what our dog's snout looks like. I don't really know anything about GR breeding or anything like that. And in all honesty we didn't get our golden from a breeder but from a family man with a goldie couple. Now I know how there's some people who think it's best to get your dog from a reputable breeder and so on but I believe that if there's a puppy for sale, from someone other than a breeder, they too deserve a loving family and home. Anyway...what does our goldie's snout look like? 
















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## kwhit

Nairb said:


> Is there evidence of a cause and effect relationship in that instance?


This is from the UC Davis Study:

"While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the *increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates* as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs."

"Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because *neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates*, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs."


From Whole Dog Journal:

"*Delay in growth-plate closure.* Sterilization, particularly *early sterilization, causes the growth plates of the bones to close later*. There are fears that this delay can increase the likelihood of fractures."


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## Nairb

kwhit said:


> This is from the UC Davis Study:
> 
> "While results of the new study are revealing, Hart said the relationship between neutering and disease-risk remains a complex issue. For example, the *increased incidence of joint diseases among early-neutered dogs is likely a combination of the effect of neutering on the young dog’s growth plates* as well as the increase in weight on the joints that is commonly seen in neutered dogs."
> 
> "Joint disorders and cancers are of particular interest because *neutering removes the male dog’s testes and the female’s ovaries, interrupting production of certain hormones that play key roles in important body processes such as closure of bone growth plates*, and regulation of the estrous cycle in female dogs."
> 
> 
> From Whole Dog Journal:
> 
> "*Delay in growth-plate closure.* Sterilization, particularly *early sterilization, causes the growth plates of the bones to close later*. There are fears that this delay can increase the likelihood of fractures."


I'm not arguing those points one way or another. Arguments can be found on both sides. I was specifically referring to the dog Tuco knows.


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## kwhit

Nairb said:


> I was specifically referring to the dog Tuco knows.


The dog's circumstances, as far as neutering early and having issues, that Tuco knows would fall into the parameters of the study from UC Davis. I just quoted the parts that would be relevant.


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## Nairb

kwhit said:


> The dog's circumstances, as far as neutering early and having issues, that Tuco knows would fall into the parameters of the study from UC Davis. I just quoted the parts that would be relevant.


Unless Tuco can cite evidence of neutering being the reason for the longer legs of the specific dog he referred to, a cause and effect relationship hasn't been established. That was my entire point. 


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## Tuco

Nairb said:


> Is there evidence of a cause and effect relationship in that instance?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The guy lived a continent away from me, I wasn't exactly at the diagnosis, but it's what he told me


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## Mirinde

The Whole Dog Journal released this article Risks and Benefits to Spaying and Neutering Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article , based largely on Dr. Zink's research into the early spay/neuter argument. It presents some information suggesting that early spay/neuter does influence the osteology of the dog and general build. 

However, this article http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/Documents/PedRebuttal .pdf was released as a rebuttal and has a concise section titled "orthopedic considerations". It has substantial research backing it up, from what I can view.

This may help anyone trying to decide if early spay/neuter can play a part in bone structure (and therefore facial structure). My dog was neutered at 5 months and he is extremely lanky in his legs (I still have no idea if it's related, don't really care), but his snout is pretty square still. Personally, I would think that it has a lot more to do with parental genetics, but obviously the jury is still out on whether sex hormones play a part.


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## Vhuynh2

I remember reading a really old survey/test done here on the forum where people submitted photos of their dogs neutered and intact at all ages. People would guess if that dog had been neutered early, late, or not at all based on the look of the dog. The most people guessed correctly when the dog was neutered at 6 months or earlier versus any other group. 


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## tippykayak

The actual evidence suggests that there is some increase in long bone growth among dogs neutered in the 6 month window, potentially enough to be visible, but it isn't inches. It's millimeters.


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## Brave

tippykayak said:


> The actual evidence suggests that there is some increase in long bone growth among dogs neutered in the 6 month window, potentially enough to be visible, but it isn't inches. It's millimeters.


Would this effect the age guidelines? What I'm trying to get at is is a puppy was neutered early, will his bones continuing growing past 18 months, which is the time frame given when considering harsh activities like agility and running. 

I ask because Bear was neutered at 8.5 weeks by his rescue. And I would hate to exacerbate anything by running him too early. I planned on waiting for him to be 18 months. 


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## lgnutah

Vhuynh2 said:


> I remember reading a really old survey/test done here on the forum where people submitted photos of their dogs neutered and intact at all ages. People would guess if that dog had been neutered early, late, or not at all based on the look of the dog. The most people guessed correctly when the dog was neutered at 6 months or earlier versus any other group.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


As I was reading this, I was remembering that survey as well. My (faulty?) memory had me thinking that people were pretty much wrong when guessing whether the dog had been neutered early or not based on viewing the photos.


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## tippykayak

Brave said:


> Would this effect the age guidelines? What I'm trying to get at is is a puppy was neutered early, will his bones continuing growing past 18 months, which is the time frame given when considering harsh activities like agility and running.
> 
> I ask because Bear was neutered at 8.5 weeks by his rescue. And I would hate to exacerbate anything by running him too early. I planned on waiting for him to be 18 months.


I think this is above my pay grade. I've read a ton on neutering age and really didn't find a conclusive sense either way of how much extra risk—if any—there really is for joint damage when a dog is neutered early.

That said, Bear was neutered _very_ early. I'd talk to a vet about when it would be safe to run him.

I'll also say that I think that training your dog up to activities is the most important thing. Gradual increases of activity are at least as important as age when it comes to protecting dogs from injury.


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## NFexec

Hello Everyone,

As the OP, I find it both interesting and a little entertaining that the original topic of "snout length" has morphed into relationships between neutering age and physical changes/bone density in GR's! 

However, as far as my original questions are concerned, I find they have been reasonably answered and for that I thank you. Now - please feel free to extrapolate topics as you wish! 

Doug


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## BCMmom

So, if I look at a puppy and it's parents both have the shorter thicker nose then I guess the puppy will too? I prefer the longer snout .. do the two look different as pups?


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## BCMmom

I mean " its parents".. bad use of apostrophe!


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## goldlover68

I am working with our 5th field bred Golden now. She is the 'best' pedigree we could find. We did a ton of research and paid a premium to get what we hope will be the best 'field Golden' we have owned. All of our Golden's have been good, but we are getting older and this will probably be our last. I cannot be assured even she will turn out to be the 'best' we have had, but we got the best pedigree, from the best breeder, and are using a top trainer for her, but only time will tell....her nose size is irrelevant. At least that is my opinion...


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