# Won't walk and scared



## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I think I have been in denial as to how much Koda actually has anxiety issues...she has always been more submissive and timid but I just assumed that was how she was going to be. Nothing bad ever came from it and nothing has as of now either but I am not sure how to approach this with her.

The past two times we have attempted to take her on her usual walk she has laid down and refused to go. The first time was yesterday afternoon and it was hot out so I excused it to her being too hot. Today, however, as soon as we got to the parkway a very nice, calm, yellow lab was approaching and walking with his owner, on leash, in heel, not caring at all about Koda. Koda barked once and kind of ran around in an anxious manner. I just told her "you're fine" and ignored it. She wouldn't walk and laid down to watch the dog pass. She has done this many times so I thought nothing of it. Then we were going to proceed walking and she would not walk that way. I tried everything, she was not going to walk. So I turned around and was going to go the other way, nope, wouldn't walk that way. Tried one other way and still nothing. Came inside, let her relax and ignored the whole situation. 15 minutes later tried to go for a walk and she laid down in the driveway and would not walk. I ended up having to put her in the car and drive her to the park in order to get a walk in...

Last night she was sitting in the front yard at my parents house with my mom and this huskie walked by. She didn't see him coming so I think he might have startled her a bit but he wasn't trying to come by her or anything. When she saw him she howled and ran under my moms chair to hide. When she went to move the chair to get her out Koda freaked about that noise and went jumped. 

I am thinking of contacting a behaviourlist to help me out because I don't want a dog that is afraid of this much stuff but I dont know what else to do. She has met and played with so many dogs so I don't know why she is afraid of them to begin with. She has never had a "bad" encounter. The only thing that happens is when we walk past peoples houses dogs will bark at her from behind invisible fences and things but none have ever gotten out and hurt her in any way...so I don't know how this all started. I dont' know if it is something I did or didn't do or if it is just her personality....?

Any input on this would be SO appreciated. She is such a wonderful girl otherwise and I dont want her being afraid to go out for a walk especially...

It is hot out again today but she loves her walks normally so I just can't imagine that the heat would be a reason she wouldn't want to go anymore.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I am sorry, i have no idea how to help you with this...never dealt with fears this extreme. Tess can be afraid of new things, like a steaming pipe in the road in New York, or a weird sounding breathing machine in the hospital, but she usually comes round when I tell her to go up and have a look. Very slowly, sure, but in the end she will investigate and move on. I am sorry you are going through so much with her.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

baumgartml16 said:


> I ended up having to put her in the car and drive her to the park in order to get a walk in...


How was she when you were walking in the park?
If a dog has anxiety issues, and they are not addressed/corrected, I am pretty sure that it will only get worse. It sounds like you are at the getting worse stage. I think consulting a behaviorist might be the way to go. 
If she was fine walking in the park, I would suggest you keep walking her in the park until you can get her evaluated to find out what the issues are and how to correct them. 
Good luck with her.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

Wow. That's tough Michelle. It probably would be good to get an expert opinion. Just make sure it's a good expert..IMO there are a lot of self-described, self-taught ones.  

In meantime, perhaps give her a bit of melatonin before walks. I know that works for many dogs. And a thunder shirt maybe....

I hope it's just a phase and she passes through it quickly.


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, it appears that she had a bad experience somewhere along the line of socialization.

Heaven knows what these dogs are saying to each other when they meet!


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm hearing a couple of things.

It's hot out.

She's bored with her regular walk...as in btdt up the wazoo.

She went fine when you were at the park.

She's a pup and they do get weird from time to time.

Penny is a little shy with other dogs and isn't very interested in grown ups that she doesn't know. It's just how she is. Fiercely loyal to her family and their dogs, loves all kids but not friendly at all with dogs or strangers. She spooks/startles at noises (like the chair moving) . Today she was sitting in the barn aisleway and she startled when a broom in the tack room fell down. 

I just take it as her personality and never thought about it being 'wrong' or not being what I wanted.

I don't know that any of this helps you, but if it's her personality then all you can do is work to keep it at a minimum. When you see another dog approaching, go ahead and take her off the path as if you meant to go that way all along. Give her her comfort zone rather than push the issue. If she's at your mom's you can assume she doesn't know the doggie neighbors very well and gets in a self-protective mode.

I like that Penny doesn't want to visit everybody. When we're off leash, I never have to worry that she'll bolt after another dog or person. She always comes back and walks near me. It's a good thing!


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

Penny's Mom has great advice here. Dogs go thru phases and sometimes fears just crop up now and again. Tucker gets this way with riding in the car. You just have to work thru it to get them back on track. The key is to not make a big deal about and stress about it, because it will only make it worse. Just lately Tucker had been getting a little protective on walks, and would get confrontational with certain dogs. I noticed this and realized I was getting lax, and not paying enough attention to my surroundings and the other dogs around us. Once I started to pay attention to those other dogs, and take proper action to assure Tucker not to worry, he was fine. Just this weekend and a very active beach for dogs, we walked right by aggressive snarly dogs with no issue. Just take a look back at the successful walks Koda had, and more recent ones and see if anything has changed in the way you handle yourself and Koda. I suspect you are doing something different and don't realize it. Don't stress! This will pass.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I never walk my guy during the day in summer - unless it is a full shade walk (like hiking in the woods). It's too hard on them. 

It's 90 degrees out there right now and both Jacks and the collie were camping out in the shade, on the stones, and demanding to go back inside with the AC. 

Walk in the evening.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I don't get the feeling this is just a new 'stubborn' streak or a way for her to get her own way - trust your gut. If you can, have her assessed by a certified behaviorist so that you can know what you are dealing with and get help with it. A fearful dog is not something to take lightly, but it can be over come. In the meantime, work with her, reward every step in the 'right' direction - if she will only go two feet down the driveway -go two feet reward and praise and then go home, work within her limits -her 'safe zone' however small it is right now - it will grow.
I adopted a fearful dog 2 1/2 years ago, it took me six months to convince him a leash was not his mortal enemy, a few more months to even walk him down the street half a block - the world terrified him. The first day I opened the gate to go thru, he refused to move - he wouldn't step out of the yard. From there on in, I rewarded every move he made to go forward, every step he took was huge for him and he needed to know that it was a good thing and it was truly okay. In between our attempts at walks, I worked with him in the house and yard, building his confidence and doing just basic training and rewarding heavily any responses that I liked and in time we could go places we had never gone before and he trusted that I would keep him safe even if he was not totally comfortable.
Building confidence, love and trust in a fearful dog has been an amazing experience, and we have the most amazing bond - I would do it again without hesitation.
Having a fearful dog is without a doubt an emotionally painful experience, a dog is 'supposed' to enjoy all things in life, but set your sights on a better time and better place for you and Koda. You will get there and it will be so worth the journey.


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

It's way too hot out right now for us to go for walk - my Rule of Thumb is if I can't walk barefoot on the sidewalk, they can't either.

Try clicker training. Banker loves his treats so much that he will go anywhere with me.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Charliethree, I didn't get the impression that this 'problem' is any where near as severe as what you had to deal with. Plus, this is just a puppy.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

No, I dont think it is that severe...yet. But I do think using that approach will help with her walking again.

I just went to go get the mail at the end of the driveway - she used to love doing it. She stopped halfway down the driveway thinking we were going for a walk probably...something really scared her, I just have no idea what. She eventually came and once she realized it was just mail she was pretty excited to help me carry it in. 

I did send an email to a behaviouralist I have been referred to. I am hoping we can get moving on this fast because I dont know what I am going to do with a puppy that won't go on walks...too much energy to not take them. 

She did walk fine once we were in the park so it's just our neighborhood. The second attempt at a walk was in the morning so it really wasn't THAT hot out yet, just warm. I don't think it is boredom either, she LOVED that walk. But she won't go either of the other two ways I tried to take her either. Only wanted to be back home. There are really no bad experiences I can come up with either except being barked at but none have even gotten close to her. And we don't make a big deal about it, we just keep walking. 

I am fine if she is a timid personality, I can totally handle that and accomodate her. It's hard though when for 11 months she has LOVED her walks SO much and now all of a sudden she is refusing them. She is such a wonderful loving dog. She isn't afraid of people or dogs when they come to her house either, when they come here I can't get her off of them, dog or human lol. It's only walks. 

My husband was out of town this weekend (of course) so he is going to make an attempt at walking her tonight once it stops raining and see if him not being here had something to do with it (I am doubting this as I usually walk her anyways so it wouldn't have been much different for her). But a change in her life is a big deal at any amount so the fact he wasn't here could have thrown her off. We will see...

I truly appreciate all of you responding to this. Thank you! 

Kathleen - how much melatonin would I give her? I might talk to my vet about this and see what she thinks.

Thanks again!!


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Have you had your gal's hips and elbows checked recently? Is there any chance that she associates her beloved walks with being in pain?

Wishing all the best for your Golden sweetheart and for you,
Lucy


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## Phillyfisher (Jan 9, 2008)

I would try this. Take a walk on your typical route by yourself. Take a close look at your neighborhood. Is there anything that has changed lately? I know Tucker is very visual, and notices things that are out of place or new. One day he refused to walk with my wife down a certain street. On that street is a huge GSD that has actually gotten loose out of its yard and charged my wife and Tucker. That time, my wife was able to ignore the GSD and keep walking with Tucker. Tucker followed her lead and did not react to the GSD. The GSD ended up seeing there was no issue, and turned around and went back to his yard. The day he refused to go down that street, my wife found out the GSD was out loose again. Tucker sensed what was going on, and chose to avoid the situation altogether. All this is to say, don't discount Koda's intuition. Sometimes dogs sense thing we may not notice, until we take the time to stop and actually observe the situation.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

The part that she was afraid of today has definitely not changed at all. There are no dogs that live on that stretch so no dogs that she is looking for. The reason she didn't go was because another dog had walked past her and was therefore in her line of sight when she was walking. It was an older lab, had zero interest in koda, and didn't appear to be threatening in the least bit so I don't know why that dog would throw her off. I feel it was either that she is developing of fear of other dogs or she was uncomfortable not having my husband around as he was out of town for the weekend. 

Good news: My husband took her on a walk when he got home from work and she went right away. She went down to the parkway too, they walked some, ran, and she went potty. All normal stuff. He said she didn't seem off at all. Then later tonight we went on a walk as a family and again she was fine! Perfectly normal.

So it is either a fear of other dogs, which she is timid but has never refused to keep walking because she could see the dog or it was that she was uncomfortable walking knowing her daddy was not home. Not sure. I guess we will see tomorrow when I attempt to take her for her afterwork walk in the park.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I was typing at the same time you were.

We have never figured out why Penny will go with him and not with me. I did all the walking and training. We think she thinks of him as leader/safety and me?...not so much.

I can make her go but she is reluctant and sits down.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Yea, perhaps it is her feeling more secure when he is around. He does travel a lot in the fall so either she isn't getting walks or she is going to have to accept me as someone she is safe with.

I wonder if they actually make that connection that dad is just not home. I walk her a lot because he works different hours but just the fact that she knows he wasn't there that morning, maybe that threw her off? Idk...I am probably reading into this quite a bit.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> No, I dont think it is that severe...yet. But I do think using that approach will help with her walking again.
> 
> I just went to go get the mail at the end of the driveway - she used to love doing it. She stopped halfway down the driveway thinking we were going for a walk probably...something really scared her, I just have no idea what. She eventually came and once she realized it was just mail she was pretty excited to help me carry it in.
> 
> ...


I looked at a bunch of places on the Internet to decide the dosage. Tucker is 70 pounds so I use the "big dog" guidelines which 3 to 9 mgs. So I give him 6--2, 3 mg capsules, opened and sprinkled into warm goats milk. But you could also just give the capsules or tablets whole with some PB. I use the human form but there is dog stuff too. Many people swear by as an anti-anxiety treatment. I just give it to Tucker to help him calm down, once in a while.


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## Maverick James (Feb 27, 2012)

Not trying to be disrespectful here, but any chance she is feeding off some emotion of yours ? Dogs can pick up on even the slightiest bit of nervousness that we are feeling.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

baumgartml16 said:


> how much melatonin would I give her? I might talk to my vet about this and see what she thinks.


Great Idea, she could give you dosing instructions as well.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I wasn't nervous on our walk at all. I was excited, ready to go. After her constant stopping I got a little frustrated. But when the dog went by I was perfectly fine. It was a very nice looking dog, minding its own business. I didn't even see it until after she did. 

Perhaps other times when dogs have come charging at us behind invisible fences I have become nervous but it is hard not to. If I know the dog is nice I dont mind, but there are some that came growling/barking at us so yea I get nervous there. I am a small girl trying to protect my baby if a dog comes at me. I don't know how not to be nervous in those situations. I never make a big deal out of it though, once we are past the dog I am completely normal and don't say anythign about it...


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## SeaMonster (Jul 4, 2011)

Your pup is just going through a fear phase and is bored with her walks. I'd continue socializing and taking her to new places. Laying down during walks is totally normal. Keep her on a ver short leach and walk fast and be patient till shes a little older


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I feel as if her whole life has been some sort of fear phase lol. She definitely goes in spurts when it is worse but she is always a bit on edge. I contacted her breeder to see if either mom or dad ever had anxiety issues and he did say that mom is a little more jumpy and spooked easier. So perhaps she inheritied a bit of that and now these times when it is worse is just the fear stage. Not sure. We are going to continue keeping the walks interesting and doing fun things!


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

Does Koda know "touch", where she touches her nose to your hand on command? Sometimes if Cookie is a little apprehensive, I will use touch to get her going. For example, at my in-laws house, the stairs can scare her. They are steep and take a bend, and the stairs are kind of dark. So, sometimes she'll just stop at the top and not want to budge. Then I will hold out my hand, and tell her "touch!" and she almost always will forget about being nervous and touch my hand while walking down the stairs.

I don't think this would help with serious anxiety issues, but it is a good tool to keep in your back pocket.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thats a great idea, she does know "touch". I will use that next time just to distract her from whatever she was fearful of. It was so petty but I couldn't distract her enough to keep her going.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm not up to speed on everything, but are there parts of her training in which you're scolding or punishing her? What kind of collar is she on?


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

No, we NEVER scold or punish her in training. We have come to realize she does not like her prong collar and are planning to switch to the easy walk harness now. She had been sometiems running away and doing circles before putting it on and I always thought she was excited. The other day I took the prong collar by itself and put it on the floor, she ran away. I took it away and she came running to me, i put it back on the floor she went running. So for some reason she is scared of it and that is not okay with me, i dont want her fearful of anything. So we are going to the easy walk harness now which might help her too. Although the stopping on the walks this weekend seemed unrelated to the collar she had on.

On another note, anyone know if you can buy a harness at the pet store or only online?

Thanks!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Also she wears her prong collar to class when we go but now I am not sure we should do that. Do we still use it as a correction tool for class or no? I am just afraid she is going to not obey her heeling as well...?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I definitely wouldn't have this dog on a prong for a second longer. I'm not sure what else you might be doing to increase her nervousness and cause this kind of shut down behavior, but the prong would be the first thing to go if it were up to me.

She also just doesn't sound like a dog who needs physical correction like that. It's very hard to assess her accurately, but when you talk about shutting down, my first response would be to work on drawing the dog out, and in my sense of drawing a dog out, a prong collar is incompatible.

I'd instantly leave any class that was based around a prong collar and correction-motivated loose leash walking, but let me disclaim up front that I generally won't train with an instructor that even allows prongs, chokes, or e-collars. It's not how I want my dogs motivated, and I prefer the APDT-style trainers who are skilled and experienced in many ways of motivating dogs without those tools.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

She is a puller though, will the easy walk work for that in class too?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

baumgartml16 said:


> She is a puller though, will the easy walk work for that in class too?


I wouldn't address pulling as an equipment issue unless I absolutely had to. I'd address it as a training issue.

If you need more physical control for safety's sake, try a harness that allows you to clip the leash to the front of the dog (a back clipped leash can turn your girl into a sled dog right quick). Halters can work well too, though some dogs really hate putting them on, so it's not my go-to solution.

I'm talking about a dramatically different approach than you're apparently using, though, so going halfway in the direction I'm suggesting probably won't work. You have to give up pop corrections and work on a withholding/rewarding method if you're going to switch to a harness. It would involve starting over with a different trainer and a whole new method.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Okay I am confused, so what are you suggesting. I am open to suggestions, I hate seeing my girl like this. It is all I can think about.

We have a trainer coming over tomorrow night to help us address some of the issues we have been having and letting her see them firsthand. I am going to buy a harness tonight that clips in the front. I agree it is our lack of training with the pulling but she is very driven to get where she wants to go.

Should we not be treating her on walks when she comes to us or focus more on that?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

What I mean is that if your training class and loose leash method are focused around popping the dog's collar as a correction, that wouldn't be the class for me. Given that your dog seems very "soft" in the face of corrections and new experiences, I'd focus on methods that rely on drawing the dog out and rewarding her, rather than on punishing her.

Basically, you want a method that teaches her that loose leash is fun, not that pulling leads to discomfort. If you're popping the collar as punishment for pulling, especially with a prong, you could be contributing to this shutdown. Even if you're not popping, when she pulls up against the teeth of the prong, that could be enough to teach her learned helplessnes (one cause of shutdown).

Treating her on walks is great, but you shouldn't lure her with treats at this point (i.e., hold one out in front of her to get her to move). It'll set up a bribing pattern. You want to mark good behavior with a "yes!" and then reward with a treat, but you don't want to be showing her the treat as a way of coaxing her. You want her to offer the good behavior first and then see/receive the treat. You also want to change up whether she gets a treat as a reward or gentle praise and petting. You want her working for _you_, not for the cookie.

You really, really need an experienced trainer who can show you all this, though. I'm not sure any of us can really solve this problem with posts. I'd just stay away from anybody who wants to put a prong on this particular dog.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Okay, yes the trainer we have coming tomorrow does not use prongs so hopefully we can get a method going on how to work with her. I am glad I realized this now and didn't keep using it. 

Thanks for everyone's help.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

My husband got me really down last night though. I know he was upset that Koda was acting so scared/anxious of things and didn't actually mean to make me get this way but it did. He just was upset that we do SO much for her, give her 100% of our love and attention when we are home and somehow she is still scared of so much. She runs under the table when we go to put the collar on. I think it stemmed from the prong collar which we got rid of last night but she is doing it anytime I reach for any collar. I feel so bad for her. 

He is also pushing so hard for us to give up her lunch time walk and not have the pet sitter come anymore. His family never had pet sitters and their pups were just alone all day without walks from the start pretty much. This was a long time ago and I know times have changed but he thinks it is time for her to be alone for the day. I just cant get comfortable with this and feel horrible thinking about it. Koda is in the kitchen now so she has a big room and a big patio window to look out of. 

Right now she is getting a walk in the morning along with playtime (running) in the basement. We would make her morning walk longer if we did this. She gets a walk or playtime after work right when we get home. She gets a long walk later in the evening and more play time downstairs. There is lots of love and attention in between. If we take out her afternoon walk this would be her schedule. Does this sound reasonable and enough for her? I am so torn with it all right now...


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## jluke (Nov 18, 2011)

*So Sorry...*

Michelle -- so sorry that you're struggling with all this and feeling badly about it. And especially that the prong collar seems to be contributing to Koda's walking issues since it's worked well for Maisie and we've been back and forth on the subject on the Teenage thread.

Just a thought -- since the trainer-behaviorist is coming soon, do you want to discuss making changes in Koda's routine with her before you decide? My reaction is that you might want to keep her schedule consistent since she's struggling, but you have the chance to get an expert opinion that may help.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Flora got so bad with walking around the neighborhood that I started driving her places, since she walks NO problem anywhere else but our neighborhood. If I try to walk her in the neighborhood by myself, half the time I can't get down the driveway before she plants her butt down and says "No." I think most of it is my fault. I trained her that walks = getting in the car and going somewhere awesome, so the simple idea of walking around the neighborhood is boring for her. I used to push her on our walks. I would literally drag her down the driveway and around the neighborhood, and it was never fun. I don't push her anymore. If she decides she absolutely does not want to walk - then we don't walk. It's disappointing for me, but I don't see the point in fighting her.

Flora's always had some behavioral problems. When she was younger it really upset me. She was scared of a lot of things, dogs, wouldn't walk around the neighborhood with me, had resource guarding issues, etc. 

She's 3.5 years old now and a LOT better. I think maturity helped a lot with her fear problems. But... she still has her moments.  Last week I took her walking around a local nature preserve and at one point in the walk she stopped cold, bristled her fur, and started growling. The source of her fear? Yeah, a giant pile of horse crap. :doh: Once she got close enough to realize it was horse poo she then tried to eat it, which is a whole 'nother problem.

I guess the reason I'm relating all this to you is that maybe it will help you realize that not every dog is perfect, and that nothing is permanent. Flora is still scared of dogs, and will never want to be friends with them. She still refuses to walk around the neighborhood unless I have friends with me. She still gets all scaredy cat with certain things, but it's not a major problem.

Hopefully the trainer can help you out, but I also hope that you can learn to accept some of your dogs faults and get to a point where you can shrug your shoulders and say, "Well, that's my dog for ya!"

As for the midafternoon walk - dogs are perfectly fine left home alone for 8 hours or so a day. Flora never had any problems with it. I just make sure to give her love time in the morning and plenty of it after work.

Good luck.  You'll get to a good place with your dog soon enough!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Florabora - thank you so much. That is good to hear. I can accept her faults but at the same time if I can make her more comfortable in some way I want to do it so I thought seeing the trainer will maybe provide me ways to make it easier on her. My husband is having a harder time but I think he will come around. He had goldens growing up that weren't treated properly in my opinon. They learned to be lazy basically. They didn't get walks, they were socialized. Honeslty they were great dogs and very loved and loving they just laid around a lot. Koda isn't that way and I dont want her to be that way so he is coming around to the fact that she is more work than his parents dogs were.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

baumgartml16 said:


> Florabora - thank you so much. That is good to hear. I can accept her faults but at the same time if I can make her more comfortable in some way I want to do it so I thought seeing the trainer will maybe provide me ways to make it easier on her. My husband is having a harder time but I think he will come around. He had goldens growing up that weren't treated properly in my opinon. They learned to be lazy basically. They didn't get walks, they were socialized. Honeslty they were great dogs and very loved and loving they just laid around a lot. Koda isn't that way and I dont want her to be that way so he is coming around to the fact that she is more work than his parents dogs were.


Oh yeah, I totally get you wanting to make her more comfortable. I would have LOVED to have gotten some one on one professional training with Flora's aversion to dogs, but I couldn't afford it so I just had to make do. Training is always a better route than the route I took, which was basically just... accept Flora's nuttiness.  Good luck!!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> Florabora - thank you so much. That is good to hear.* I can accept her faults but at the same time if I can make her more comfortable in some way I want to do it* so I thought seeing the trainer will maybe provide me ways *to make it easier on her.* My husband is having a harder time but I think he will come around. He had goldens growing up that weren't treated properly in my opinon. They learned to be lazy basically. They didn't get walks, they were socialized. Honeslty they were great dogs and very loved and loving they just laid around a lot. Koda isn't that way and I dont want her to be that way so he is coming around to the fact that she is more work than his parents dogs were.


I don't want to sound harsh but I believe she is very comfortable as she is getting everything her way. I hear alot of things also. Too hot, she doesn't like her collar, I think she feels more secure with her daddy etc....
I remember when you were afraid to hurt her if you tried to grab her collar to get her up after refusing to come back inside. She's a smart girl Now you are ready to accept her faults but just want to make her more comfortable. I don't believe she has any faults and I believe a good in home trainer can teach "you" how to get her back on track. She is only going to get bigger and you need to nip it in the bud before she gets older. In my very first training class many moons ago the trainer stressed that sometimes it's the owners that need training more so than their dogs Good luck with the new trainer.


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> My husband got me really down last night though. I know he was upset that Koda was acting so scared/anxious of things and didn't actually mean to make me get this way but it did. He just was upset that we do SO much for her, give her 100% of our love and attention when we are home and somehow she is still scared of so much. She runs under the table when we go to put the collar on. I think it stemmed from the prong collar which we got rid of last night but she is doing it anytime I reach for any collar. I feel so bad for her.
> 
> He is also pushing so hard for us to give up her lunch time walk and not have the pet sitter come anymore. His family never had pet sitters and their pups were just alone all day without walks from the start pretty much. This was a long time ago and I know times have changed but he thinks it is time for her to be alone for the day. I just cant get comfortable with this and feel horrible thinking about it. Koda is in the kitchen now so she has a big room and a big patio window to look out of.
> 
> Right now she is getting a walk in the morning along with playtime (running) in the basement. We would make her morning walk longer if we did this. She gets a walk or playtime after work right when we get home. She gets a long walk later in the evening and more play time downstairs. There is lots of love and attention in between. If we take out her afternoon walk this would be her schedule. Does this sound reasonable and enough for her? I am so torn with it all right now...


Michelle, I suspect she'd be just fine being home alone for the day at this point. If she's in a safe room, she'll most likely settle down and go to sleep. It's not ideal but she's a well loved and cared for pooch. She'll survive OK. I haven't done this yet wi Tucker but I think I could if nec. 

One thing you might try is freezing her breakfast in Kongs, and leaving them on the floor when you leave for the day. Getting through those will occupy her thoroughly for a time, and then she will probably settle down in the quiet house and nod off.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thats a good idea with the Kong. 

Wyatts mommy - i dont think she is trying to get her way in this case. She is actually scared of the prong collar. She will run to the back door wanting to go out or go for a walk and if I grab the prong collar she runs under the table to hide. Even if I set it down she won't come look at it. I am not going to use something that makes my dog run and hide. Not only am I making her comfortable here but myself.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

baumgartml16 said:


> She runs under the table when we go to put the collar on. I think it stemmed from the prong collar which we got rid of last night but she is doing it anytime I reach for any collar. I feel so bad for her.


Give it some time. If she's developed a fear of the prong collar, it might take a while for her to overcome it. She's not seeing a difference between the prong and any other collar. To her, a collar is a collar. Right now (if she's afraid of the prong) she's just thinking 'collar = scary.' I think it might be a good idea to try the harness -- give her something completely different for now that she doesn't have any negative associations with.

Good luck with the trainer. Let us know how it goes. I completely agree with what Tippy was saying and would find a trainer who wants to focus on drawing her out. Find out what motivates her and use it. It's always a little hard to tell when you're just reading posts online, but I don't hear you describing a dog who's 'getting her way.' It sounds like she's going through a fairly intense fear stage and you want to address it the right way. Manhandling her, or being too harsh at this point, in my opinion, is the last thing you want to do.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> Thats a good idea with the Kong.
> 
> Wyatts mommy - i dont think she is trying to get her way in this case. She is actually scared of the prong collar. She will run to the back door wanting to go out or go for a walk and if I grab the prong collar she runs under the table to hide. Even if I set it down she won't come look at it. I am not going to use something that makes my dog run and hide. Not only am I making her comfortable here but myself.


But didn't you say she had a different reaction when your husband took her for a walk? A harness is best IMO. But I know what a hassle they are to even put on. And if she is "afraid" I'm not sure that will be the best thing right now. Again, a one on one trainer can help you more than any of us at this point.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

She did walk with him but still didn't like the collar. There were two issues. For me she wasn't walking that day because of a dog that we saw on the walk even though the dog did nothing to her. She has been showing signs that she might be afraid of the collar but we didnt put two and two together till I set it down and realized she wouldn't come near it. So yes she was more comfortable leaving the house with him she still didn't want the collar on from him either.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> She did walk with him but still didn't like the collar. There were two issues. For me she wasn't walking that day because of a dog that we saw on the walk even though the dog did nothing to her. She has been showing signs that she might be afraid of the collar but we didnt put two and two together till I set it down and realized she wouldn't come near it. So yes she was more comfortable leaving the house with him* she still didn't want the collar on from him either*.


I have a gut feeling it isn't the collar. My dog doesn't like having to get up to go outside when I leave for work He tries to work me sometimes by avoiding the back door, but in the end he always loses. Training a dog is not about what _they want_ it's about what they are taught.


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## Odette3 (Apr 13, 2012)

Just a thought, is Koda food or toy oriented? If so, why not bring one or the other along with you on her walks. If her attention is kept away from what is going on in the neighbourhood she might walk better. If she likes peanut butter, put it on a wooden spoon, hold it at nose level and walk with her this way. It might work.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I have a gut feeling it isn't the collar. My dog doesn't like having to get up to go outside when I leave for work He tries to work me sometimes by avoiding the back door, but in the end he always loses. Training a dog is not about what _they want_ it's about what they are taught.


She will do this after having gone to stand at the back door wanting to go outside. As soon as we come over and grab the collar she runs under the table. And it isn't just in the morning, it is all times of the day.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Odette3 said:


> Just a thought, is Koda food or toy oriented? If so, why not bring one or the other along with you on her walks. If her attention is kept away from what is going on in the neighbourhood she might walk better. If she likes peanut butter, put it on a wooden spoon, hold it at nose level and walk with her this way. It might work.


She actually picked up a branch on our walk today and she was really focused on getting that branch back home she didn't notice anythign else. I think you are on to something here lol...I might have to bring her ball with next time or something like that to keep her focused.

Thanks!


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## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

Michelle - please let us know what your new behaviorist/trainer has to say about your issue. I know Koda has always had a little bit more of a sensitive/nervous way about her in new situations - our Tucker never has. BUT - just recently Tucker started hiding under the kitchen table when we get him ready to go for walks. Once he's out of the house, he's happy as a clam. I'm just curious to know if this is a common thing that dogs go through at around this age (Tucker's around a year now too). Maybe some experts out there can chime in.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Yea Katie, its just like that most of the time. Usually she is happy go lucky on her walks. That one time on Sunday she freaked out for some reason but she hides until we basically act like we are going to leave her, then she comes. I dont know. I will be sure to fill you in with what the trainer says!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Had the trainer over last night and my husband and I are SO happy we did it! She gave us a lot of peace of mind and told us not to worry, Koda will be fine in no time. She said she isn't to a point where it will be tough to reverse yet so it is good we are working on it now.

First of all, the prong is gone for good. It turns out she thinks the reason Koda was getting fearful of dogs and people at times was because she was associating the discomfort of the prong pull with the dog/person she was seeing. So now she sees people/dogs and fears the prongs. Makes complete sense. We are going to either get the limited slip or martingale collar to use for her now. 

So on walks we need to take responsibility for the people/dogs instaed of her. So we need to point it out to her before she has a chance to react and make it a happy thing. So we say "Koda, look, a person, yay!" and keep talking in happy voice keeping Koda engaged. If she does happen to sit or down before we can prevent it then we need to act casual and ignore her until she gets up to keep moving along. Even if it takes a while. We did it this morning and she was positively curious instead of hiding. Yippee!!

Also for the collar and her hiding - we are now doing collar conditioning. So when we go to put the collar on we grab some treats and take baby steps. So we reach for the collar, treat, touch the collar, treat, hold it in our hand, treat, move it towards her, treat, touch it to her, treat...so on until it is on. She thinks this part will take 2 weeks tops for her to forget it as a bad thing and think of it as a good thing. That along with the fact that she isn't going to fear the prong will help she thinks!  

We are very excited to start working on this. She also suggested we sit in our driveway where Koda is comfortable and watch people walk by and point them out in happy voices. Then move further and further down the driveway until she is more comfortable. Sounds like these are easy things to work on and we are confident she will be better in no time.

She will always be submissive and more timid and that is fine, we just want her to be comfortable and have SOME confidence in herself!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

That sounds awesome to me. Good luck!


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## Sienna's Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

Yay!! That sounds very positive! I would be excited too!

Sienna can be a bit submissive and apprehensive when meeting other dogs face to face- especially on leash. She is much more a people dog that a dogs dog.

She gets so excited when meeting people we had put the prong collar on her to help us control her (around kids at the bus stop etc.) but the trainer does have a point about associating it with pain/meeting dogs, and I hadn't thought about that. We haven't used the prong collar in a while as it was making marks on her neck!!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Yes, Koda had started loosing some hair on her neck which was another reason we wanted to get rid of it.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

You are doing an awesome job with her!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

inge said:


> You are doing an awesome job with her!


 
Thanks, that really means a lot!


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## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

Sounds like a great plan! Tucker is much more a people dog than a "dog's dog" too - if we do a meet and greet while on the trail with other dogs, it's always the people Tucker seeks the greeting from - not nearly as much the dog!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Great news! It sounds (in my opinion, anyway) like this trainer is on the right track. She sounds great!
It's really good to hear that she doesn't think her fear has gotten too bad yet.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Yes I loved her as a trainer, she was all about positivity and the psychology behind the dogs thinking which helps put it in perspective!


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> Had the trainer over last night and my husband and I are SO happy we did it! She gave us a lot of peace of mind and told us not to worry, Koda will be fine in no time. She said she isn't to a point where it will be tough to reverse yet so it is good we are working on it now.
> 
> First of all, the prong is gone for good. It turns out she thinks the reason Koda was getting fearful of dogs and people at times was because she was associating the discomfort of the prong pull with the dog/person she was seeing. So now she sees people/dogs and fears the prongs. Makes complete sense. We are going to either get the limited slip or martingale collar to use for her now.
> 
> ...


Let me know if this works for you. We have had this issue(as you know) with Nyah from day 1. Although I think it's gotten to the point where it cannot be reversed because she is so fearful of every noise she hears. Nyah does this too, where she will just sit or lay down. If I didn't drag her then she would never walk a day in her life and get no exercise. Maybe this is the mistake we made with her. For Nyah it's not other people/dogs. Its any loud noise, stuff blowing in the wind, new objects, etc. 

Hopefully you have better luck then me.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It all sounds good, and you have been given things to work on! Keep us posted.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> Also she wears her prong collar to class when we go but now I am not sure we should do that. Do we still use it as a correction tool for class or no? I am just afraid she is going to not obey her heeling as well...?


I would get rid of the prong collar permanently for all occasions and not worry about heeling or pulling for a while. Pulling can wait for putting right until she gains confidence. 
It sounds like you have a sensitive dog who shuts down when faced with something uncomfortable and she scares easily, so she tries to escape by shutting down and not moving or pulling to get away. 
I would stick with an ordinary flat collar and lead for her and not try to control her too much for the time being if she is happy to just be on the lead. Dogs very often learn to pull harder with a harness and the haltis and head collars may well make a sensitive dog shut down alltogether. I don't know how old Koda is, but I assume she is a puppy, so when you take her out I would not be going anywhere in particular, but would rather just get her out and about to look and take in her surroundings and what is going on. Let her watch the world go by. If she stops and shuts down I would just stay quietly talking to her for as long as it takes for her to get herself together again. If you take her somewhere quiet and just practice walking (in any way she wants as long as she is comfortable and moving happily) she may not feel as pressured and will become more settled once she stops the panicking. 
I have a sensitive dog and she has had periods of being unhappy about quite a few (seemingly silly) things when she was younger. For instance when the leaves came off the trees in Winter she didn't like the large oak trees with their branches outspread and I had a job getting her to accept they were harmless and go past them. I did not let her run away, but rather stopped and watched them with her until her brain kicked back in and she realised they were not harmful. She often goes down when she meets other dogs, but once she realises they are OK she bounces back. Best thing, I think is not to let her avoid things you know she will have to get used to, but take your time and wait for her to work things out. I hope you will find things improve as she gets older and becomes more experienced.

Edited to say
Sorry, I only read the first few posts and I am pleased you have received some sensible help. Gently, gently does it and I am sure you will have a lovely girl once she is through this period. Best wishes.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks guys. Yes she is 1 year old so still a puppy some would say. 

The prong collar is gone for good. 

The pet sitter just called and said she didn't get a walk in cuz Koda wasn't having it today. They got about 4 houses away to the parkway she usually loves to walk and she stopped. The sitter tried to just ignore it till she was ready, she was never ready. She tried treats, she didnt want to move for those but still wanted them lol. She tried distracting her with other things which got Koda's attention but when she tried to walk Koda said no. Bummer...it is definitely going to be a process. My husband is going to work with her when he gets home. I think he is going to take her to that spot, turn around and come home. Go back and go a bit further, come home. We will see how that goes.


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## marshallsmom (Dec 22, 2011)

Hi Michelle! I think I may be having a problem somewhat related to yours. Although for my golden, I knew what set him off. He is normally fine with walks for months (do not mind other dogs, not scared of people or dogs) although we know he is somewhat timid and a little anxious. He does well at daycare and great with other dogs. Until one day we walked by a construction site and a loud noise scared the crap out of him he ran home crying (the look on his face was terrifying!). Since then he has been cautious about going outside. When he hears something he looks over and plops his butt down, would not budge. I can lure him with treats but it only goes far until the anxiety becomes to much and he want to run home again. I want to know how Koda reacts around the time she wants to stop walking? Is it sound related...does she look over somewhere that scares her? I am slowly working with Marshall's recent "trauma" from that incident and going one step at a time. Goodluck with Koda!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Marshallsmom - I think knowing exactly what caused the scare is a bonus here. My problem is I really don't know. Koda will either put the brakes on and sit or kind of turns away and not wanting to move forward. 

One thing our trainer told us last night is that you have to take baby steps. Now since you know what caused this problem (construction site) obviously avoid it if you can. But first just take him outside and sit on the driveway. Make it a no big deal kind of thing. Bring him inside, he will realize that being outside just sitting there is good. Then walk around the yard and praise/treat/play when he is doing good with that. Next step would be walking a few houses and turn around and come home. Keep moving gradually from there. 

With Koda she is hit or miss. One day she is all for it and wants to walk anywhere and every where and the next day she is not having it. 

Give that a shot. In the meantime would he be okay if you drove him somewhere new to walk just to get his energy out? Or is he scared of being outside anywhere? Might be worth trying just to get him out and about still while you work on desensitizing him to being outside around your house again.

Don't worry you will get there. Definitely avoid going back to the spot and DO NOT push him. Let him take his time and gain confidence. The trainer said pushing will only cause more fear so try to keep him in comfortable situations.

I hope this helps you, seeing them scared is by far a horrible feeling. I know what you mean about the face. It is horrible to see! I am with you here. Keep me posted on how it goes!


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## Nyahsmommy (Jul 23, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> The pet sitter just called and said she didn't get a walk in cuz Koda wasn't having it today. They got about 4 houses away to the parkway she usually loves to walk and she stopped. The sitter tried to just ignore it till she was ready, she was never ready. She tried treats, she didnt want to move for those but still wanted them lol. She tried distracting her with other things which got Koda's attention but when she tried to walk Koda said no. Bummer...it is definitely going to be a process. My husband is going to work with her when he gets home. I think he is going to take her to that spot, turn around and come home. Go back and go a bit further, come home. We will see how that goes.


*Sigh* This is the exact same problem I have been having with Nyah this whole time. Treats don't work. Distractions don't work. She will litterally sit there and stare at home. If I didn't drag her the whole way she would have never walked the whole time we had her. I do notice that she walks better at certain times and in certain spots. Try walking koda when it is super quiet. Also if theres any trails, forest pathes, quiet parks around try walking her there and let her walk around a bit. Seems to work for Nyah. Getting there is another thing though...

Oh and forget to mention, like Koda, Nyah has her days. Some days she isn't so bad, others she won't go out the door. I wish we knew what her trigger was but it seems to be everything and anything (construction, loud noises, big trucks... plastic bag blowing in wind...)


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

baumgartml16 said:


> Had the trainer over last night and my husband and I are SO happy we did it! She gave us a lot of peace of mind and told us not to worry, Koda will be fine in no time. She said she isn't to a point where it will be tough to reverse yet so it is good we are working on it now.
> 
> First of all, the prong is gone for good. It turns out she thinks the reason Koda was getting fearful of dogs and people at times was because she was associating the discomfort of the prong pull with the dog/person she was seeing. So now she sees people/dogs and fears the prongs. Makes complete sense. We are going to either get the limited slip or martingale collar to use for her now.
> 
> ...


I like your trainer!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Last night Koda did great. She even met another neighbor dog. She was hesitant but my husband let her do the approaching instead of forcing her on the dog. It went great! Another neighborhood dog she doesn't have to be afraid of! 

We have realized talking to her and engaging her works WONDERS! OMG, she doesn't leave my side and is just smiling up at me the whole time! It makes me so happy to see that face smiling like that. Plus she doesn't even think to stop because she is so focused on us. I think this will truely help a lot of things with her including making us closer! 

I was able to put her collar on twice this morning without her running to hide, another HUGE success! I threw a big party for her! LOL


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's good to see how much progress you're making with drawing her out and building her confidence.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Wow, that's great! That's significant progress in a very short amount of time. Great job!

Riley had a big problem with fear aggression toward other dogs and I found the same thing with him. Keeping him engaged was the key. As long as I could keep his attention on me, it _wasn't_ on the other dog walking by. In time, he came to realize that other dogs weren't a big deal. All it meant to him was good, happy things; positive interaction with me, treats and praise.

Like I mentioned to someone else here, don't be afraid to do whatever you have to in order to keep her engaged and focused on you. There were times when I had to make funny noises, or dance around and sing to Riley to hold his attention. If people see you doing that, they're likely to think you're more than a little strange... but who cares?! It works! :

And don't get discouraged if you have a setback here and there. It'll happen. Just keep at it and before you know it, you'll be surprised by the changes you see.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Yes I am sure I sounded like a fool nonstop talking to my dog but she was happy so that was fine with me!


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

baumgartml16 said:


> Yes I am sure I sounded like a fool nonstop talking to my dog but she was happy so that was fine with me!


:yipee::yipee::yipee:
Its good to talk. I'm pleased you and Koda are making progress.


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

Baumgartml16, you had started an earlier thread about e-collars....is there any way someone has tried an e-collar on your girl? The dog walker, trainer or anyone without your knowing? Just wondered because she seems to have developed such a fear of her collar. Or could the dog walker possibly have misused the prong collar on her? Not that I am suggesting trying any of those on her by any means, just puzzled why she is so afraid of her collars. I would never use such methods on a timid dog. Are you certain of everything that happens to her when you are not with her? A frustrated heavy handed person could do a lot of harm, hopefully it is nothing like that. I hope mentioning this does not offend you, in no way is that my intention, I would just want to be sure your care provider is someone you know and trust to be gentle with her. I really hope your new methods help to settle her down. Best of luck to you both!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Thanks for your concern. I am 100% positive that no one has put an e-collar on her. We never had one in the house and our sitter is actually not fan of prongs either. She had been pushing us to go the harness route for a while but our training class pushed the prong collars. Now after talking to our new private trainer I realized we may have been heading the wrong way with the training class we were in. I am not sure why she got so timid around her collars but just in the last two days that we are no longer using the prong she has come around so much.


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## sameli102 (Aug 23, 2009)

baumgartml16 said:


> Thanks for your concern. I am 100% positive that no one has put an e-collar on her. We never had one in the house and our sitter is actually not fan of prongs either. She had been pushing us to go the harness route for a while but our training class pushed the prong collars. Now after talking to our new private trainer I realized we may have been heading the wrong way with the training class we were in. I am not sure why she got so timid around her collars but just in the last two days that we are no longer using the prong she has come around so much.


That's good, honest, I was not insinuating you were, I just hoped you were certain no one else may have scared her. Many years ago I had a timid dog that got too close to the neighboring farmers electric fence and got zapped, it changed her forever, she became afraid of practically everything.

I actually have a 3 year old female that is very spooky and she hates walks and going in the car, she would much rather play in the yard so I don't take her. One day I took turns taking the boys for walks but didn't take her and my husband thought that was mean so he was going to take her around the block to be fair. She was miserable, they never made it around the corner before coming back home. As long as she's happy playing in the yard with her ball I don't push her, she gets a lot more exercise that way.

Sounds like you are working with a good trainer.


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