# Why? Seriously, Why???



## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Ok warning: Goldendoodle rant. I just received an e-mail from my aunt and uncle (we have a family group e-mail with the extended family to keep track of family events, news, chit chat, etc.) announcing that they are getting a goldendoodle puppy. I didn't know they were even considering getting a dog. The litter is too young to take home yet and I REALLY want to try to talk them out of it before they are fully committed-I assume they must at least have a deposit down, but hopefully haven't paid full price yet. But I don't know how to do it tactfully/respectfully; plus they're kids are like SUPER excited about it. Both myself and another cousin are very knowledgeable dog people; if they would have spoken to either of us first, we would have strongly discouraged a doodle-or any other mixed "designer" breed; and could have given them recommendations for a purebred to fit their desires and told them how to find a reputable breeder.

So what is it with doodles? How did they become such a fad? Why are people so willing to buy into the lies and pay exorbitant prices? How did these lies become so commonly accepted as truth by the general puppy buying public? Why do people just trust that breeders are telling them the truth? They wouldn't trust anyone else to be telling the truth when making an expensive purchase-car, house, computer, what have you-they would be doing research, hiring home inspectors, etc. So why do they just take a breeder's word for it? Breeders are just as capable of lying and over-pricing dogs as anyone in any other business! How did these deceitful doodle breeders get these lies to circulate as truth and to be so readily believed? Why is it that when those of us who know the truth try to tell people, we get written off and ignored by most? Why don't they write off and ignore the doodle breeders? I'll NEVER understand!

I'm sure my aunt and uncle are probably expecting an excited response from me because they know how much I love dogs. But I just can't get excited about them getting a doodle and being deceived and over-paying for it! Uhg, how I wish they would've have done some more research-or at least taken advantage of having TWO knowledgeable family members who would've directed them to a more appropriate purebred dog!

Ok doodle rant over!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tell them how much you charge for grooming them.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I don't think the Doodles look good at all as an adult. They are only cute when puppies. You can't even tell if it's a GoldenDoodle or a LabraDoodle, always having to explain what it is. Not to mention there is no standard as they are still just mutts. A litter of 8 and none may look the same and none may look like the parents. The reason they started breeding these dogs together is to breed out the health issues (or so they say) and all they've done is create a dog with both breeds health issue in one. And it's just a cheap excuse to not have to do clearances since there is no prerequisite health clearances established to do for these dogs. Talk about a build free pass for not doing clearances. And then to top it all off they charge a CRAZY amount of money for a mutt.


My Neighbor jsut bought a Pomsky!? It's a female Husky artificially inseminated with a Chihuahua!? and paid 3k for it!? It looks like a blonde Pomeranian to boot and can get anywhere from 15-45 pounds. When I heard the name Pomsky, I though Pom x Skipperkie and thought they are both in teh Spitz family. Why the heck would anyone put them together. Then she told me the cross and I'm like OMG! lol Thinking all these people are doing is just helping them with keeping in business.



OK I don't like designer dogs either.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

I don’t understand designer dogs. Never will. Would never pay for one either.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

We have neighbors, I live in the country so they are 5 miles away, that's kids love my dogs. He has always played with them, and has begged for a Golden forever. His Grandmother went out and bought him a Golden Doodle last summer. The reason behind it was that poodles are smarter, and don't shed. 

Fast forward to now and they are calling my son, who is a hunting guide and fairly decent handler, and begging him to come and teach the dog to stay in the yard, or just simply the "Here" command. My son, who is an adult, came to my house after one session of going to help and said that their golden doodle is the most high strung, hard headed dog he's ever dealt with. Keep in mind he runs Chesapeakes, owns a very high strung lab, and grew up with various Golden's around.

Their son is back to begging for a Golden. I will never understand why.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

I tried to educate a colleague of mine this past summer about why getting a designer breed was a bad idea - all very reasoned, explaining about the lack of health clearances (she was buying a mix of two giant breeds with no hip tests or anything), the mistruths about them being healthier, no guarantees on temperament, etc. and absolutely none of it mattered. It fell on deaf ears. Her mind was made up. *She just loved the look of the dog.* 

I had no argument for that. And I knew my efforts were futile. Nothing mattered but how cute the dog was.


I think when it comes to Doodles, people get taken in by the promise of a Golden Retriever that doesn't shed. They have no idea that some of them DO shed, and that some of them get poodle personalities, and many of them are very volatile. And that the line about them being healthier than pure breds is a crock. I feel like it is akin to trying to talk to people who (still) think vaccines cause autism or kill dogs (and people) or who think science is evil and wrong.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

I was at an agility trial the other week, and a woman came over to me with some kind of huge hairy dog (which I later found out was a goldendoodle), to admire Duster. She loved his colour, kept gushing about it, and eventually asked if he was intact. He is, and I told her so. She almost started jumping up and down with excitement! "Oh, how wonderful," she said. "Would you be willing to breed him to my poodle? We could make a boatload of money off the puppies!" I sent her away with a very firm assurance that my dog would not _ever, _in any circumstances, be used to produce mixed breed dogs with crappy coats that would likely end up in a shelter somewhere, and that I'd rather live under a bridge than make money that way. I hope I hurt her feelings.


As much as it made me angry, the encounter did provide some insight into the ethics and knowledge of certain doodle breeders. This particular woman is apparently a well-known doodle breeder in our region, and sells her pups for considerably more than I paid for my beautifully bred golden retriever. Yet, she thinks it's fine to approach random people and ask if they'll breed their dog to her female. She thinks it's fine to choose a stud based on colour only. The words "health testing" were never pronounced. She's clearly only in it for the money.


But people still buy her pups. Go figure. I sometimes think I was born on the wrong planet.


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## Our3dogs (Apr 3, 2008)

It's a tough call on your part. I suppose you can just talk to them about what they think the "good reasons" are for getting a doodle? Perhaps, as mentioned above, bring up the cost of grooming? You might be able to have a conversation with them as to what they think they are getting in the way of temperament, size, etc? Most likely it will just end up with hard feelings if you tell them what a big mistake they made. Definitely agree with everything posted above - people have no idea what they are actually going to end up with when they get a mixed breed like this. In talking with a breeder I know, she says she see's this all the time when she happens to be at the repro-vet with one of her dogs. She said most always the dogs being used are not the best quality to begin with - which is totally understandable because no good breeder is going to do that with either of the dogs being used. This of course opens the door to all sorts of health issues on both sides of the breeds in question. Good luck!


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## robertsonse11 (Sep 6, 2018)

My husband said it best, _"Doodles are for people who don't really want a dog, but get one because their kids keep asking for a puppy."_ 

They appeal to people who are looking for a half-assed commitment. Then they get the dog and realize they actually DO require training and grooming. 

My husband is a surgeon and some of his colleagues have doodles (goldendoodle, bernedoodle, newfiedoodle). They always act shocked that we decided to get a Golden because of the shedding. Then they complain about how annoying and poorly behaved their dogs are... but at least they don't shed. They are all proof that even educated people can be willfully ignorant.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

It is amazing how many doodles and other designer mixes there are around. Recently a neighbor has acquired a Bernedoodle (Bernese x Poodle) and there was one in our puppy class. They're very cute but who knows how they'll be when mature. One is much larger than the other whose parent was a miniature poodle.


Our puppy class had one other Golden but I think the rest were some kindle of doodle. The owners seemed to be mostly first time dog owners, were very proud of there doodle and apparently paid lots of money for them. It seemed to me that the 2 Goldens were more intelligent and easily trained while the doodles were either hyper or very timid. I think the marketing of the designer breeds is taking advantage of a very uneducated market. People who have never owned a dog get to a point where their kids are begging for a dog, or they think their kids should have a dog, and they hear doodles are good . . . "they don't shed and they're hypoallergenic and the puppies are so cute" and they don't realize there are many other things to consider like temperament, health clearances, ultimate size, trainability, grooming needs etc.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Sweet Girl said:


> I tried to educate a colleague of mine this past summer about why getting a designer breed was a bad idea - all very reasoned, explaining about the lack of health clearances (she was buying a mix of two giant breeds with no hip tests or anything), the mistruths about them being healthier, no guarantees on temperament, etc. and absolutely none of it mattered. It fell on deaf ears. Her mind was made up. *She just loved the look of the dog.*
> 
> I had no argument for that. And I knew my efforts were futile. Nothing mattered but how cute the dog was.


That's the thing, people buy for looks and don't consider anything else. Although, I think doodles are pretty much the ugliest things you could get so I don't know how so many people think they so cute. But looks is what it came down to for a friend of mine who got a doodle. I gave her all the info, all the facts, told her all the lies surrounding "designer" dogs, suggested she just get a well-bred purebred standard poodle since her biggest thing was she wanted a big dog that didn't shed. But her response was that she just likes how doodles look. I told her I could groom a poodle to look like a doodle, that did nothing for her though. Another response I heard was, "Well, so and so has a doodle and they really love him." Well of course they love him, its their dog! Whether or not a person loves their dog is not a good indication of how healthy or easy to train or whatever that it is!


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

While I have no no interest in ever owning a "doodle", my parents have an Australian Cobberdog and she is very well mannered, extremely smart and easy to train and a really great dog for my parents. My parents looked far and wide for a breeder who actually does OFA hip/elbow testing as well as genetic testing on their dogs. These dogs have their own registry and breed standard, yet are not an AKC recognized breed...as far as I know that is the only 'doodle' type dog that seems to be heading in the direction of becoming its own breed. 

I have to laugh though...there are very very few dog breeds that were not at one time or another influenced by other breeds and then bred with other breeds until breed founders were happy with what they got and then kept breeding those mixes before those mixes were recognized as a breed. 

I AGREE that today 'doodles' are often a marketing ploy by uneducated and completely illegitimate breeders just trying to make a buck off of designer dogs. It really is sad. Often times the 'allure' of a non-shedding coat blinds people into thinking they are making an educated decision when in reality they are most certainly not..

To the OP, I think in your situation all you can really do is explain to them why you would be extremely cautious to get a doodle, and offer alternative breeds that †hey could look at. Unfortunately some people will have their minds made up on the 'doodle' dilemma before they really know the truth.


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## daisy1234 (Jun 17, 2018)

Yes, tell them the grooming prices. lol They are only cute as puppies. I have been around 2 of them. One in our puppy class. He was cute as could be but very high strung and would not listen. The mom kept looking at my Golden like she wanted to trade. Mine did as she was told. One of my neighbors got one the same time as I got my Golden. That poor dog was so hyper it was sad, and it just really reminded me of a mop.I would try to write a tactful letter about your knowledge of the breed and hopefully they listen. People are funny about what kinds of dogs they want so it's hard to tell them otherwise. Good luck!


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## MamaDel (May 26, 2018)

To each their own, etc.

Dogs are a very personal choice. No matter the breed they are a huge commitment. All of us are on a different journey. Some dogs just turn out to be absolute treasures. My once in a lifetime dog was an English Mastiff. I didn't and don't love the breed...but I loved him. I would keep your opinion to yourself unless they ask for it. If they do ask, then by all means, be honest (but gentle). That famous saying comes to mind... "People won't remember what you said, they will remember how you made them feel."


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I have to laugh though...there are very very few dog breeds that were not at one time or another influenced by other breeds and then bred with other breeds until breed founders were happy with what they got and then kept breeding those mixes before those mixes were recognized as a breed.


Where this does not work though is doodles. 

With goldens and other established breeds, they are what they are because of over 100 years worth of breeding true generation after generation without going back and mixing them with foundation breeds.

And you had very rich guys doing all this - at a time when "mistakes" were culled. You did not have people setting up a business of selling their mistakes. 

As well, there is a mentality of people out there who get hooked onto "hybrid" breeds. And as long as these dogs are not truly compounded and mixed beyond a point, they get all excited about buying them because it's like buying an improved golden or an improved poodle. 

And right now we are on a second generation of people who for whatever reason think that doodles are a normal "purebred" breed. It never occurs to them that this is still a mutt that has 1 breed for a dad and another for the mom. 

All those people have no clue what makes a breed a breed. 

It's not mixing this with that and coming up with an all new recipe.

You need purpose and again you need to independent of other breeds - breed true, generation after generation after generation for a long time before AKC recognizes that breed as a real breed. 

Right now all the doodles that are being created shows NO INTENTION of breeding long term a breed that is consistent generation after generation without having to be bred back to either goldens or poodles. 

And also, you have people producing "doodle" mixes with everything that is breedable. 

And a lot of these people have no access to good dogs and breeders are working a little hard to keep it that way. Which means these breeders are producing crap from crap they scraped out of the bottom of the bucket somewhere. That might be petstore dogs or backyard bred dogs or whatever. They are using dogs who have no clearances or anything to recommend them. And because the pet owners are looking for a frizzy weird looking dog, they have no ability to see what's wrong with the parents. It's basically the worst version of backyard breeding gone viral. That's all of it. Even when you have people CHANGING THE NAME to something else to hide the fact that they are breeding labradoodles.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

I think it's great to offer advice before someone has purchased a dog but I don't think it's all that constructive once the decision has been made. At that point it's better to encourage them to properly care for the dog in terms of grooming, training, and exercise.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

*~~*



Megora said:


> And a lot of these people have no access to good dogs and breeders are working a little hard to keep it that way. Which means these breeders are producing crap from crap they scraped out of the bottom of the bucket somewhere. That might be petstore dogs or backyard bred dogs or whatever. They are using dogs who have no clearances or anything to recommend them. And because the pet owners are looking for a frizzy weird looking dog, they have no ability to see what's wrong with the parents. It's basically the worst version of backyard breeding gone viral. That's all of it. Even when you have people CHANGING THE NAME to something else to hide the fact that they are breeding labradoodles.


I agree with you, 100%. The doodle fad is crazy to me, I think it is crazy to everyone on this forum because we are all golden retriever people. What my parents decide to do is none of my business...believe me, I tried to sell them on almost every other 'hypo-allergenic' dog breed (my father loves dogs but is extremely allergic). The ONLY reason I bring up Australian Labradoodles is because they have a registry, code of ethics, a parent club and do breed true (if you are one of the FEW breeders who does everything the right way. They are also exclusively multigenerational, so theoretically breeders do not have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find lab + poodle to make a mutt). Trust me I did a lot of research when my parents got their puppy, knowing full well that I was already biased against these crosses.

Again, everyone likes different things, and it sounds like the OP already has their own opinions on doodles as we all do, just wanted to clarify my original point, if it was not clear.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Go to the embark website and look up the tests for goldens and goldendoodles. There's about twice as many concerns for the doodle. Honestly though, they probably won't listen. I tried to keep my mom from buying her 3rd pet store puppy. Didn't work. 
These designer breeds seem to have so many issues. Around here, a majority of doodles come from a local service dog organization. They breed their own labradoodles, goldendoodles and golden lab crosses. They are placing them with children. Can you imagine having a seriously disabled child and a dog that needs so much grooming?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

EmmaKFricke said:


> They are also exclusively multigenerational, so theoretically breeders do not have to scrape the bottom of the barrel to find lab + poodle to make a mutt). Trust me I did a lot of research when my parents got their puppy, knowing full well that I was already biased against these crosses.


I'd expect them to prove it. 

I did a look up of the supposed breed you mentioned earlier and every website I looked at bragged about having DNA or whatever - but there was no pedigree posted anywhere to prove it. It's again a big issue of misleading people with false claims. 

If you have somebody breeding dogs true for 20-50+ years - that would be a huge deal. And I'd expect to see pedigrees posted to show that these are not just second generation dogs going on a third generation. 

Besides the whole moral of breeding mutts who have no breed standard or any checks or balances to ensure they actually are breeding true to someting... there is also the problem where these dogs are not healthier than the parents and you have compounded issues because there were no health checks done on the parents and the history behind the parents was unknown. As generally is the case when you buy a dog from a petstore which got the dogs from a dog farm somewhere. 

I had neighbors (they've retired and moved north by now) who originally had a toy poodle when they married. Wife was the owner of the toy poodle and she married a hunting type guy (and I mean big time - they had antlers hanging over their front door and a bear staring out one of the windows). When the toy poodle died, they bought a labradoodle. And the reason why was she loved her poodles, but he wanted a "real dog". So the doodle was a compromise. 

Dog was about 9-10 years old when he was becoming very disabled from bad hips. And he also had neurological problems (either EIC which is a lab problem or it was a form of epilepsy) - these got pretty bad by the time he was a senior. He also had eye problems, might add.

Great dog. Hunting dog. Was a more rugged type of poodle. More bone than a poodle, more size (height) than a lab. But health was crap. 

A lot of people jumping in and buying these mutts have no concept of good breeders in both goldens and poodles are actually doing to produce healthy and sound dogs generation after generation. 

And in some cases, the only exposure some of these people have to either breed is really crapy bred dogs - so maybe they don't know any better. 

Anyone who likes the look of doodles - they probably would be better of getting a breed like a Wheaton, Otterhound, or any of the other breeds out there which have a similar look... but are significantly healthier and sounder than a mutt coming from somebody who knows nothing about anything but buying any dog they can get their hands on and then spawning mutt-puppies to sell.

And to double down on my point, btw... the average person out there thinks that all you need in order to get well bred puppies is to put a purebred dog with another purebred dog, both papers, and let nature have its way. But the cold hard facts are that there's a lot of goldens out there and a lot of poodles out there - all who should never ever be bred. It's poor quality in structure, temperament, and type which makes these dogs endearing to their owners in some cases, but ultimately scraping the bottom of the bucket in the eyes of people who do have access to very nice dogs. 

And I'm not kidding. 

People who go to dog shows are bound to sit there at ring side and being all in awe over the beautiful dogs in the ring - thinking these are all very well bred dogs! But even in the show rings, there's dogs shown any day who technically should not be bred. Or would be a breeders ultimate last choice based on something about them. 

That's breeders that put a lot of thought and extra effort in selecting studs for their breeding programs or where they buy their girls from. They are not just getting or using anything that happens to be the same breed as what they have or want to breed. This is selection. 

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has gotten approached by people who are looking for stud dogs at petstores or just walking downtown. And if I have time, I will prop an elbow and ask them questions about clearances going back the past 10 generations, I will ask about pedigrees the past 10 generations, and I will continue asking them all kinds of questions about their own dogs before I finally told them why it was no go. In a lot of cases, if the female is very VERY poor breed quality, there is no way I'd want my dog to be used. Doesn't even matter if the girl has clearances - I still would not OK that type of breeding. And so on.


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## watterdog (Sep 6, 2013)

I have friends with Goldendoodles, who just love them. They shed, but not as much. They (generally) have the sweet disposition of a golden, and very intelligent mind of a poodle. Plus, many golden owners have gone the "doodle route" because of the high amount of cancer in the Golden world.

Not my thing either, but so what? If someone wants one, I think that is great. People love Pitbulls and Cane Canarios, and I don't get that either. And, if spending a high about of $$ for a dog they love is what they want to do, fine by me. As long as they treat the dog with love and care, so be it.


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

So.... You come to a Golden Retriever forum, and you read a little. You don't seem to appreciate why we really love this specific breed and why they are special dogs (for starters, the only ones with a temperament clause in their breed standard!), and you think it's ok for Muppets to cross breed any old Poodle with 'my lovely golden (ish)' and it's ok to make 'goldendoodles' because there's a demand? Poodles are REALLY smart dogs - for Poodle enthusiasts! (They're cool, maybe a bit like us, but fuzzier ;0)
Encouraging the whole 'cross breed as a designer dog' thing is a terrible idea for the welfare of dogs in general.
Whilst hybrid vigour is definitely a thing, breeding matters for dogs, for their long term heath, because they've been so horribly manipulated genetically in the past.
Thinking that a cross breed will produce a superior dog is just stupidity. It's just as likely to produce a very ill and disabled dog. 
Why would you knowingly do that? Well - you wouldn't, would you? So anyone who does, is either stupid, or doesn't care....


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

watterdog said:


> I have friends with Goldendoodles, who just love them. They shed, but not as much. They (generally) have the sweet disposition of a golden, and very intelligent mind of a poodle. Plus, many golden owners have gone the "doodle route" because of the high amount of cancer in the Golden world.


The doodles that I've met in person are more like poodles. I don't really see golden retriever looks or temperament in them. They are poodle mixes. You have to like poodles in order to appreciate them. 

This even includes grooming. The coats are GROSS. 

A former boss had a doodle who would be allowed to come into the office to visit us generally any time of the day. Coat was caked with oils and matted. If you pulled the hairs apart to get a look at the skin - you couldn't find the skin because it was just solid mats close to the skin. They don't shed as much because it all sticks in there and mats!

This was somebody who was a yuppy and took great care of his dog - but assumed the dog only needed a groomed every couple months. 

And I do not see people with doodles doing obedience with them - so what does that tell you about their intelligence and trainability? 


And health? I now know of 2 doodles who died at or before the age of 10 from cancer. This wasn't hemangio (yay?). This was brain cancer. The second doodle was actually a goldendoodle adopted from a shelter for ten bucks. Prior owners dropped him because the kids were allergic to him. He was just 7.


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## MushyB (Oct 31, 2018)

Several years ago, I visited a friend of a friend that professionally trains services dogs, and had some 6 week old puppies that needed more visitors (my kids were little at the time, so it was a win/win visit). I had just lost my first golden to cancer (osteosarcoma) at 13.5, and was still pretty devastated after only a few months without him. She was breeding and raising labs, so I mentioned about how I kept hearing about Goldendoodles and how wonderful they were. She stopped in her tracks and was very adamant about what a disaster this pairing was, and went into much detail that I sadly don't remember. But I do remember how she literally stopped what she was doing with the puppies and kids to give me her opinion on Goldendoodles, which was very negative.

I've only known 3 myself (1 on the Central Coast of CA, the other 2 around here in Northern CA): all three look like long-haired poodles, none had the sweet temperament of any other golden I've known, all 3 were very stubborn, difficult to house-train and train in general. All 3 sets of owners have complained to me about how frustrated they are with their dogs, and just don't understand why they aren't as sweet-tempered as any of our Goldens. I honestly don't know what to say: my heart goes out to them, but every single one talked about how much their dogs cost (more than our dear Barkley, who I JUST FLEW TO CANADA TO PICK UP!) and how "wonderful" the breeders other dogs were, and they just had to have a "hypoallergenic" dog b/c someone in the family had allergies...

My heart broke in again when we lost our second golden to cancer just 4.5 after adopting him as an adult, but I love this breed with all my heart, so I buckled down, did a ridiculous amount of research, and 1.5 years after starting all the research and looking for the right breeder for us (and adopting another senior golden (of indeterminate age) with health issues in the meantime), we have our B. There are no guarantees in life - I get that. But I feel good about the choice I made in our breeder, and every. Single. Day with B, I see all the work that our breeder put into his lines so that we ended up with a sweet-tempered, easy-to-train, smart, gorgeous golden retriever. 

I just don't get the "Goldendoodle" or "whatever-doodle" fad: none of them can hold a candle to any golden retriever I've ever met.


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

jennretz said:


> My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...



I totally agree 100% but I don't think it's about the dog but the people who breed the 2 breeds together for profit with no concern for the long term health of the puppies they create. I think that is what the issue is. People want what they want for a variety of reasons. The issue I believe for most on this topic is that of people mixing breeds for the sole purpose to make profit.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I love my neighbor's pitbull mix and the other neighbor's cockapoo. Both are very nice dogs. Or were? Haven't talked to the pitbull mix owners in a few months and haven't seen her around. 

Where did they come from?

Cockapoo from a petstore.

Pitbull-lab-boxer-other-things mix came from a rescue who had pulled her out of a kill shelter when she was a puppy. <= Her owners got her the same time I got my Jacks. The pups were playmates growing up - same as Jacks was buddies with the minpin next door. 

I like dogs and generally like most of the dogs I meet going around the neighborhood - except the nasty sharpei that I won't go into. This particularly includes the different golden people.

Do I know where they come from? 

Nope.

Do I care?

No, not at all. 

I chat with or wave at people in passing and don't really look at their dogs as anything more than they are. They are beloved pets. A doodle is no different from a lab mix or hound mix.

Do I like the fact that people are deliberately breeding mutts for crazy prices? No.  I think it's irresponsible. Supporting it is irresponsible as well. 

Doodles - are being pitched as a mutt-breed for everyone, but especially families with little kids. And unfortunately those families are also going to be the ones who do not have time to groom the dogs or money to have them professionally groomed every 3-4 weeks aside from clipping the coats off. 

I think this is irresponsible. 

Are there some mixed breeds I support? NO.

Are there some that I understand? No. 

Are there some breeds I REALLY DON'T LIKE? Absolutely, but that doesn't mean that I think they should be mixed with something else to make them more likable. 

If you don't like something about a breed? Don't get em. Look at a different breed. 

Mixing breeds like hounds and labs and poodles - is tough, because a lot of these mixes are already out there. 

Hound mixes? Egad. There was a rescue event I went to a while back and it was all beagles, bassets, and bigger hounds - a lot of hunting dogs that were either puppies or dumped adults. <= My mom grew up with a beagle (and other dogs) so she was heartbroken walking around and seeing all these dogs, the beagles especially. If rescues allowed impulse buys - one would have happened there with my mom. 

All those dogs needing homes... gets blamed on breeders like the ones I bought my dogs from. However - it's completely different. 

My Jovi - the litter had like 20 people on a waiting list waiting for almost 2 years before the litter happened.

But even other breeders like a friend of mine who owns 3-4 girls with all their clearances... she breeds them when they come into season... I don't know how soon she starts building her waiting lists since she's breeding more frequently... but I do know that by the time she formally announces a litter in the works, all the puppies are already spoken for. 

Most golden breeders have long waiting lists and some are pretty protective about who they will sell puppies to. This includes keeping their eyes open for fishy business and sharing it around with other breeders. 

Doodle breeders generally are the fishy business which people are watching out for and warning others about. 

It's somebody's business whether they breed mutts for profit while lying to puppy buyers about what they are getting in a dog. It's the same type of thing that I see with people in goldens who are breeding dogs that have nothing to qualify them being bred (talking physically - both breed standard and health certs) - this while they are charging a lot and making deceptive claims. Sometimes you hope they are just ignorant of what all needs to be done besides buying breeding dogs and setting up a website or facebook page to advertise from, but at this time with people iin the breed talking until they are blue in the face - there's no real likelihood of them simply not knowing better.  

Doodle breeders are the same people as that. It's the same slick selling schemes and fast talking and pushy salesmanship - all designed to get people to open their wallets. 

These are the things that bother me the most - particularly since I know a lot of very nice and passionate people within the breed (goldens) from conformation to obedience to field to agility. And there may be splits all over the place, but all these people get together when ti comes to doing the right thing by these dogs. That's full clearances, that's selective breeding, that's not buying more and more dogs to breed just so you are constantly producing product to sell (nobody in their right mind when it comes to being decent would have 40+ breeding dogs kept in a kennel and bred whenever they are in season left and right). Just like nobody who has any intention of becoming a very highly respected and well known breeder, would sit down and start breeding mixed breeds. 

A lot of people are skipping over some of the uglier stuff with mixed breed breeders, backyard breeders, puppy mills, and people who use brokers or ship dogs around to be sold in petstores. 

They also are skipping over the practical parts of dog shopping - or what people should be doing when looking for their next dog.

They should not be just looking for cute, different, etc....

They have to learn about the breeds and put a lot of serious thought into whether they are an ideal home for these breeds.

With goldens - I overshare the crazy stuff my dogs do and have done (while they are very good dogs!) - because I hate the fact that people think these dogs are automatically trained or easy to train. People in other breeds think that. 

But that doesn't come close to understanding a lot of the breeds which the mutt breeders are mixing with poodles. 

And actually selecting these breeders and buying puppies from them is paying them to continue doing what they are doing, including the deceptive advertising and irresponsible throwing anything together. And there's no accountability ever with these mutt-mutts, because no breed standard + no organized breed club that anyone belongs to, etc....


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## MushyB (Oct 31, 2018)

jennretz said:


> My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...


I wasn't inferring Goldendoodles/or doodle mixes were less; for me, the mixes just aren't the same as Goldens, and we can't expect them to have the same characteristics as a dog breed to have those characteristics. I'm sure there are many lovely Goldendoodles out there; I haven't met them yet. And I'd take a golden retriever, with whatever issues, over any other dog any day, twice on Sunday :grin2:


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

I have a mini Goldendoodle and he is amazing. I also have 3 Goldens and they will always own my heart. Duddy and 2 goldens are rescues and the Princess is from a breeder. Duddy is scary smart, sweet, happy, joyful and believes everyone should be having fun. All my dogs do sports and very smart, easy and fun to train but Duddy has it all over them. I totally get your feelings about "designer" dogs, but every dog is an individual and I know quite a few doodles and they are great dogs. Please don't blame the dog because of the greedy a ?breeder? Wish you could meet Duddy, he's an awesome dog. It's also nice to have 1 "scoopable" dog in the house too!

Can't stop greed but don't blame the dogs, puppy mills churn out goldens.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nobody blames the dogs. 

We blame the breeders for the most part.

And people who support those breeders. 

Doodles are cute mutts. Mini doodles have been around a long time. They are called cockapoos.

Back when Bertie was in puppy classes - saw this cockapoo being trained by an older woman (in her 70's, I think). Perfect dog, very smart, was ideal for this person.

She had adopted this dog from a rescue.

To this day - I honestly don't know anyone who has bought a cockapoo from a breeder. They are all coming from rescues.

That's the future of doodles once the fad blows over. We're already going that way with more and more doodles showing up in shelters and rescues. This is what happens when people buy poorly bred dogs from bad breeders. Most people love their dogs anyway and sharp instruments come out in defense of everything about their dogs. But when anyone can buy dogs and breeders are motivated to sell to anyone, it's long stretch bad for the dogs. 

This is why we all need to support good breeders - and people who are not just breeding for the moment or for the sale.

My personal thing aside from all that is - the Poodle Club of America is at fault for allowing all of this to happen to their breed. The poodle breeders have not worked hard enough to crack down on just anyone buying poodles from them. And even limited registration is not enough discouragement (some people say limited registration when selling to anyone works because people "can't breed"), because nobody is thinking about producing a purebred dog to be registered with AKC. 

With poodles being bred to anything and everything - it's just awful for that breed!

I don't personally want goldens to become like that. That's the gut feeling of every protective breeder out there who have been plagued by purchase requests from people who want to breed mutts. 

If you wonder why golden breeders (reputable, legit ones) are so micromanaging and beyond difficult to buy a puppy from - this is one of many reasons why. People in general don't mind lying to a breeder's face. 

Poodle breeders need to start cracking down and becoming uber protective of what they breed like that and more since the problem is so widespread. 

And this involves all breeds since these doodle breeders are literally breeding to anything.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

The term "designer dog" is dumb. They are not designer, they are mixed breeds. It is no different than if the neighbor's blue tick hound jumped the fence and the golden retriever there got pregnant. Would the puppies be bluedens, golden ticks, etc. Someone woudl come up with a name and sell them as unique.


One of the most interesting mixes I ever saw was about 12 or so years ago and it was a golden retriever, shar pei mix and his name was Frankie. The owner had two of the shar pei (not sure of spelling) and then Frankei, that he adopted. Frankie was just the sweetest boy and the owner said he was total golden in temperament . The guy used the dogs to raise money for a mental help/physical disability program. I bought a calendar. I think if I could have sneaked that dog in my purse I would hav. He was adorable. He had the wrinkle,s nose, etc of the shar pei, but his coat was so soft, not coarse, and he had golden ears. I woudl have taken him in a heart beat, but never would I breed dogs to come up with his.


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## watterdog (Sep 6, 2013)

HollyB said:


> So.... You come to a Golden Retriever forum, and you read a little. You don't seem to appreciate why we really love this specific breed and why they are special dogs .......


Wow. I guess you are referring to me in the "you"? Well you certainly put me in MY place, didn't you? But please don't think you know me, or anyone on this forum when you jump to such conclusions, and make such an insulting statement.

I love Goldens and have had them in my life every day for the past 36 years. And I don't just_ "read a little"_. I have had my ups, downs and health challenges with these wonderful dogs, along with massive vet bills from cancer, and recently vaccine "side effects", and cancelled vacations to be with our dogs, ALL well worth it. We have rescued abused and sick Goldens, and tried to give them the best life possible for the time they had left. We have always had at least 2 Goldens in our lives at a time, because we appreciate how much these dogs love to play, run, and have the companion of a "pal". Each has had their own special personality and "quirks". *Every* dog is special, *every* dog is wonderful. So please don't tell me that I "read a little". 

But I am not so closed minded as to think that not everyone agrees with me. Some don't want to tolerate the shedding, and many people have allergies. I only said if someone wants to have a "doodle", I understand why they may make that choice. As long as they give it a good and loving home, fine by me. *And I stand by that for every breed and every dog.*


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## jennretz (Jul 24, 2013)

watterdog said:


> Wow. I guess you are referring to me in the "you"? Well you certainly put me in MY place, didn't you? But please don't think you know me, or anyone on this forum when you jump to such conclusions, and make such an insulting statement.
> 
> I love Goldens and have had them in my life every day for the past 36 years. And I don't just_ "read a little"_. I have had my ups, downs and health challenges with these wonderful dogs, along with massive vet bills from cancer, and recently vaccine "side effects", and cancelled vacations to be with our dogs, ALL well worth it. We have rescued abused and sick Goldens, and tried to give them the best life possible for the time they had left. We have always had at least 2 Goldens in our lives at a time, because we appreciate how much these dogs love to play, run, and have the companion of a "pal". Each has had their own special personality and "quirks". *Every* dog is special, *every* dog is wonderful. So please don't tell me that I "read a little".
> 
> But I am not so closed minded as to think that not everyone agrees with me. Some don't want to tolerate the shedding, and many people have allergies. I only said if someone wants to have a "doodle", I understand why they may make that choice. As long as they give it a good and loving home, fine by me. *And I stand by that for every breed and every dog.*


Not all of us think this way. This is not a Pure Bred only Golden Retriever Forum. All are welcome (mixes and pure bred).


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Megora said:


> Nobody blames the dogs.
> 
> 
> Doodles are cute mutts. Mini doodles have been around a long time. They are called cockapoos.
> .


Thank you, it just sounds like you are blaming the dogs and that so not right. I apologize for misunderstanding. 

And Duddy is not a cockapoo, he is a mini golden doodle, more poodle yes but still a golden doodle and I would have another one day, right or wrong they exist and are not going away and they are great, fun dogs. Love my goldens and love my doodle - mutt or not.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Megora said:


> With poodles being bred to anything and everything - it's just awful for that breed!
> 
> I don't personally want goldens to become like that. That's the gut feeling of every protective breeder out there who have been plagued by purchase requests from people who want to breed mutts.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of this but it is so hard to control. I am not sure how you could possibly police it, with backyard breeders and puppy mills. People who want to produce mixed breeds are going to get breeding stock and carry on. The public is fickle - at best. You can try to educate but it seems to haven little affect. Laws preventing "puppy stores" from selling anything but rescue dogs is a step in the right direction. Laws cracking down on mills but it takes forever and most are pathetic and do no good. Sadly stopping cross breeding seems highly unlikely at this time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Muddypaws said:


> I agree with all of this but it is so hard to control. I am not sure how you could possibly police it, with backyard breeders and puppy mills. People who want to produce mixed breeds are going to get breeding stock and carry on. The public is fickle - at best. You can try to educate but it seems to haven little affect. Laws preventing "puppy stores" from selling anything but rescue dogs is a step in the right direction. Laws cracking down on mills but it takes forever and most are pathetic and do no good. Sadly stopping cross breeding seems highly unlikely at this time.


REPUTABLE BREEDERS should NOT be deliberately producing mutts. 

Laws preventing puppy stores from selling anything but rescue dogs are not fixing anything - because the rescues are going around buying dogs and litters from puppy mills and backyard breeders and selling those puppies in those stores. Any mills or breeders who can't sell puppies directly, have the option to just dump them in rescue

There's stories I've heard with rescues buying up a lot of dogs from puppy mills/hoarders - and 6 months later had multiple litters available for adoption (the timing tells you that the breeding was done by the rescues).

Some people in rescues, might add, have gone down the road as to appear more supportive of puppy mills and backyard breeders... than they are of actual good responsible breeders who don't breed to anything and everything and also do everything they can to keep their dogs out of rescue. 

What would go much further to put a stop to puppy mills, mutt breeders, bad breeders, etc... is if people STOP buying from them. And if people stop making excuses for them.

And then the breed clubs should crack down on members to make a stronger statement against people breeding anything with everything. 

And AKC should go back to withholding registration completely from mixed breeds and dogs bred without papers. The very least, they should ban breeders for life if they produce mixed breeds and make all their breeding stock ineligible for any registration - affecting any dogs produced by them. Including the mutts. 

I'm pretty tired of people preaching at others about rescue this and rescue that - and they are in full support of bad breeders. I get they are thinking about breaking down any barriers people might have about adopting badly bred dogs from them and they feel like they are competing WITH good breeders, but it's bad when it ends up with them fully defending what these breeders are doing. 

Anyone who produces mixed breeds on purpose - is a bad breeder.

And to reiterate another thing. 

There's people out there who are on the outside looking in. And from their point of view, they think that everything a person like me is saying is all snobbery. This is why people are upset about their dogs being perceived as "less". And they are ignoring the fact that people like me are the SAME WAY about purebred golden breeders who are really awful and misleading the public - though in some ways, I think the mutt breeders are the worst.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Megora said:


> REPUTABLE BREEDERS should NOT be deliberately producing mutts.


I don't think "reputable" breeders do. If they are then they are not "reputable".


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Muddypaws said:


> I don't think "reputable" breeders do. If they are then they are not "reputable".


But the reason why I said it multiple times is there's doodle breeders out there who are very conscious of appearances. They are changing the names of what they breed and for example I just saw a BIZARRE breeder's website shared on facebook along those lines.

Canadian breeder.

Puppy mill.

Hiding the fact they are a puppy mill by plastering "Christian ministries" stuff all over the front page. Don't remember if there were pictures of the dogs, BUT you had all the glossy-weird-prettified pictures of the breeders (like everyone from a church?) wearing their Sunday bests and smiling very nicely for the camera! 

It was so WEIRD.

And I think a lot of it was designed to make people think that they are supporting other Christians or a church or something when buying dogs from them? And that is supposed to make them reputable?

^^^ These are the types of things which breeders are doing and it has nothing to do with the quality of the dogs. It's just farming dogs.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Totally agree and it is disgusting, wrong and blatant lying. I can also understand why reputable breeders would be angered and frustrated. Unfortunately the general public is very happy to believe the advertising and are to lazy to do the research and education. Have had many, many conversations, people asking for advice and then doing the opposite.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Abeille said:


> Go to the embark website and look up the tests for goldens and goldendoodles. There's about twice as many concerns for the doodle. Honestly though, they probably won't listen. I tried to keep my mom from buying her 3rd pet store puppy. Didn't work.
> These designer breeds seem to have so many issues. Around here, a majority of doodles come from a local service dog organization. They breed their own labradoodles, goldendoodles and golden lab crosses. They are placing them with children. Can you imagine having a seriously disabled child and a dog that needs so much grooming?


Yeah, that's the other thing. My Aunt & Uncle's oldest son is college age and severely disabled from muscular dystrophy-like he literally can only operate his wheelchair. His parents and younger siblings have to help him get dressed, eat, go to the bathroom, etc. Its really sad. But anyway, that's another reason why I think a high maintenance breed is a terrible idea for their family.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

jennretz said:


> My brother has a Goldendoodle and I love that dog. He's a quirky, sweet boy. I don't presume to judge other's decisions on the type of dog they want to get. And I don't presume that just because a dog is "mixed" that it is any "less"...


As long as people are going into it with their eyes wide open, knowing the truth- if that's what they want, to each his own. But most people get doodles because they believe the lies. Then the dog suffers because when the promises of a lying breeder can't hold water, the dog ends up in a shelter. The thing is, I KNOW this family. And I KNOW the average doodle would not be a good match for them. Also, I am not saying the dog is less just because it is mixed. The poor dogs can't help it that they were bred. And I have absolutely no problem with people wanting to get a mixed breed from a rescue or shelter. What I have a problem with is the breeders who lie and are selling these "designer" dogs to the unsuspecting puppy buyer. Its the same thing with all the "English Cream" golden breeders-more lies to sell puppies.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Ok, I'm going to take an unpopular stance here...

First, let me say up front that I agree that the majority of breeders producing doodles of any mix (or any "designer" breed) are likely irresponsible breeders who are in it for the almighty buck, and anyone who wants to buy a breed of that mix needs to acknowledge that they are spending big bucks for a mutt that was likely from poorly bred parents. THAT SAID....

I take issue with the statement that "reputable breeders should not be deliberately producing mutts." The vast majority of the dogs recognized as "purebred" today started out with some breeder either deliberately crossing one breed with another or deliberately breeding existing mutts that appealed to them to standardize the type. If Lord Tweedmouth had not deliberately bred one breed to a different breed in an attempt to create a dog with the characteristics he desired in a hunting dog, the Golden Retriever would not exist.

The man credited with breeding the first labradoodle did it for a very specific reason: He was working as breeding manager at the Royal Guide Dog Association of Australia when he was asked to find a dog for an American couple unable to find an appropriate pet. The woman had vision problems and required a guide dog, such as a labrador, but her husband was allergic to animal hair. As a solution, the breeder crossbred a Labrador retriever with a standard poodle, which does not shed its hair. Although he came to regret his role in helping to create the "designer dog" fad, the fact remains that it was an intentional breeding by a "reputable" breeder for a particular purpose. Had the resulting cross proved to be a superior guide dog, they might not now be the focus of such contempt among hobby breeders. Even today, the Guide Dogs for the Blind's breeding program includes golden/lab crosses, I assume because these crosses produce dogs that serve a particular need in their program.

In an effort to make sure that friends who want doodles have the best chance of getting a healthy dog, I've done a fair amount of cruising through doodle breeder websites. There DO seem to be breeders who truly love this combination and are doing all the same health screenings that are recommended by the parent breed clubs. They are also studying the genetics as they move into the 2nd and 3rd generations, and, I believe, working on a breed standard to standardize what is means to be a "whatever doodle." Are we to criticize these breeders along with the "greeders," just because we personally don't like their breed?

What would all of you say to Lord Tweedmouth today if he was using your beloved breed to develop a "better" version?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pets/10626590/Breeders-regret-over-creating-labradoodle.html

^^^ I think this is the perfect response. 

Quote below:

Mr Conron blames himself for opening a “Pandora’s box” and creating a “Frankenstein”. Dismissing the praise for his creation, he added: “Marvellous thing? My foot. There are a lot of unhealthy and abandoned dogs out there.”

He said that he has never owned a labradoodle as a pet, and stopped breeding them when he retired 20 years ago. He warned against people creating random crosses between different breeds, saying: “I just heard about someone who wanted to cross a poodle with a rottweiler. How could anyone do that?

“Not in my wildest dream did I imagine all of this would happen.”




> I take issue with the statement that "reputable breeders should not be deliberately producing mutts." The vast majority of the dogs recognized as "purebred" today started out with some breeder either deliberately crossing one breed with another or deliberately breeding existing mutts that appealed to them to standardize the type. If Lord Tweedmouth had not deliberately bred one breed to a different breed in an attempt to create a dog with the characteristics he desired in a hunting dog, the Golden Retriever would not exist.


Tweedmouth and others lived during a time when things were very different. I don't think people adequately try to understand this.

If they created "mistakes" by what they bred - they were not sold as superior mutts with hybrid vigor or whatnot. They were culled. 

These were also people who were not set on breeding a new breed overnight with rapid results. 

The dogs they produced were show dogs and hunting dogs. They served a more specific purpose than just being bred by the bunch for anyone who wanted a "statement" dog. 


Likewise, back then people did not know what they know today about all of the diseases and genetic conditions which these dogs inherit. This means that with reputable breeders within goldens or poodles, you have a lot of people worrying their heads off about whether a young dog is going to pass his clearances. This while he is being shown or prepped for competition. 

Back then during the 19th century, I hate to think about what they did to dogs who turned out badly.... :frown2: But I guarantee you did not have the same concern about caring for a crippled or ailing dog for years. 

With today's sensibilities about caring for pets long term, no matter what happens... and breeders being on the record for wanting to improve the health and welfare of the dogs they breed and differentiate themselves from puppy mills here in the US or the worse ones abroad.... The stuff that these mutt breeders, backyard breeders, fad breeders and all the others birds of the same feather are doing is really bad and inexcusable.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

pawsnpaca said:


> Ok, I'm going to take an unpopular stance here...
> 
> First, let me say up front that I agree that the majority of breeders producing doodles of any mix (or any "designer" breed) are likely irresponsible breeders who are in it for the almighty buck, and anyone who wants to buy a breed of that mix needs to acknowledge that they are spending big bucks for a mutt that was likely from poorly bred parents. THAT SAID....
> 
> ...


I think the difference there, is that there is no purpose to breeding any of these doodles. Whether it be a labradoodle, aussiedoodle, bernedoodle, etc. They are bred as pets, to be companions and that is not a true purpose. If someone wants a dog with a non-shedding coat they should do their research and look at established breeds. Why doesn't anyone ever look at the poodle,or barbet or lagotto romagnolo if they really want that kind of coat?


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

ArchersMom said:


> I think the difference there, is that there is no purpose to breeding any of these doodles. Whether it be a labradoodle, aussiedoodle, bernedoodle, etc. They are bred as pets, to be companions and that is not a true purpose. If someone wants a dog with a non-shedding coat they should do their research and look at established breeds. Why doesn't anyone ever look at the poodle,or barbet or lagotto romagnolo if they really want that kind of coat?





100% agree with this and in fact was about to write virtually the same thing before reading your response. The point is back then, the people mixing breeds was to create a new breed for a purpose such as hunting, tracking, pointing or guarding. They bred to create a dog with a functional coat for the work they will be doing. They bred these dogs with specific jobs in mind and bred responsibly with thought/care of long term health in mind. Today there is really no one mixing breeds to do a job or have a true purpose where there isn't already a breed for that job. So the point is these people today aren't breeding to create a new breed for anything but profit and 90% (arbitrary number on my part) of them likely have no clue or care for long term health.


So to me the argument that "This is how we got all of the breeds we have today is by mixing to create a new breed" is insulting to me and I would venture to bet a lot of other people. Most of these people have no idea how to create another breed and how to breed different breeds to get the functional attributes such as coat type, ear size, structure and body type, if it's a sight or scent dog. They also do not understand how long it takes to get a new breed recognized by the main kennel clubs like AKC. It usually take decades.


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

We had a neighbor, years ago, that had a golden doodle. I’m not sure where they got her. But she basically looked exactly like a golden retriever. So how they can advertise hypoallergenic or non shedding, they have no way to know what the pups will end up being. Just a mix of two breeds, pups can look like either parent or a mix of both. No guarentee to get the best traits from each parent.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

ArchersMom said:


> I think the difference there, is that there is no purpose to breeding any of these doodles. Whether it be a labradoodle, aussiedoodle, bernedoodle, etc. They are bred as pets, to be companions and that is not a true purpose. If someone wants a dog with a non-shedding coat they should do their research and look at established breeds. Why doesn't anyone ever look at the poodle,or barbet or lagotto romagnolo if they really want that kind of coat?





Maggie'sVoice said:


> 100% agree with this and in fact was about to write virtually the same thing before reading your response. The point is back then, the people mixing breeds was to create a new breed for a purpose such as hunting, tracking, pointing or guarding. They bred to create a dog with a functional coat for the work they will be doing. They bred these dogs with specific jobs in mind and bred responsibly with thought/care of long term health in mind. Today there is really no one mixing breeds to do a job or have a true purpose where there isn't already a breed for that job. So the point is these people today aren't breeding to create a new breed for anything but profit and 90% (arbitrary number on my part) of them likely have no clue or care for long term health.
> 
> 
> So to me the argument that "This is how we got all of the breeds we have today is by mixing to create a new breed" is insulting to me and I would venture to bet a lot of other people. Most of these people have no idea how to create another breed and how to breed different breeds to get the functional attributes such as coat type, ear size, structure and body type, if it's a sight or scent dog. They also do not understand how long it takes to get a new breed recognized by the main kennel clubs like AKC. It usually take decades.



Also agree with both. The other thing to remember about people like Tweedmouth is that they were looking at the entire picture. He wasn't just trying to create a great hunting dog - he wanted a dog who could retrieve water fowl (therefore have a certain shaped head and soft mouth), who would be protected from the elements (double coat, quick to dry), be able to swim (webbed feet), but which would be a good companion to live with a family (Golden personality, friendly, easy to train), and would be calm enough at the end of the day to lie by the fire (good off switch). If he got ONE puppy like that in a litter, yes, the rest were likely culled - not sold as volatile, unpredictable pets. He was not in it for a quick fix to the need he felt existed - it probably took decades, and several generations, to accomplish what he was aiming for. And in the meantime, he was not putting out the not-quite-what-he-was-aiming fors out into the world with the promise they would be great family companions and hunting dogs.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Doodle breeders if they knew anything know that their dogs are a mistake. But hey lets make a few bucks.

I've know quite a few doodles and they are as bright as a retarded hamster smoking meth.

Lord Tweed Had a purpose. People these days just put 2 dogs together for a buck.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Wally Conron's dogs were originally bred generations and generations ago (early 80s) to serve a specific purpose, which was to be highly intelligent, friendly, therapy dogs. I'm sure that whenConron made his deliberate crosses he didn't have the SLIGHTEST idea that 'doodles' would blow up and morph into what they are today. It is disheartening that the vast majority of breeders that are producing these dogs have little to no regard to the integrity, the standard and the purpose that Conron had hoped for. 

The only salvation of Conron's initial efforts is that there is an Australian Labradoodle Club of America, which has a registry, a breed standard, a code of ethics, and aims to one day produce a recognized breed. They also differentiate themselves from any other 'doodle' cross.

My parents have an Australian Labradoodle. She is _incredibly_ smart. She has a stunning coat, that is silky, yet wavy, not hard to groom, not 'frizzy' and she came from fully health tested parents going back 5 generations. She is the only Australian Labradoodle I have ever met, although my parents are in contact with her sibling's parents and they all say they same about their dogs. 

Now, do I think that all doodles share those qualities? Absolutely not. That is abundantly clear, and unfortunately, the average buyer does not do nearly enough research (if any) to find out any of the truths about goldendoodle fad breeders. This, as far as I know is as close as any doodle 'breed' has ever come to being legitimate/ethical/reputable, and there are not many of them.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

GoldenCamper said:


> Doodle breeders if they knew anything know that their dogs are a mistake. But hey lets make a few bucks.
> 
> I've know quite a few doodles and they are as bright as a retarded hamster smoking meth.
> 
> Lord Tweed Had a purpose. People these days just put 2 dogs together for a buck.


I also remember reading that one of the main reasons to mixing the dogs was to breed out the health issues but in fact the resulting dogs inherited both breeds health issues. That a alone should expose the breeding only for profit as if the were breeding properly with health in mind, they would have stopped breeding once the increased health issues we realized.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Interesting thing to report after browsing the labradoodle club website. It's basically a good idea - but I see people using them to legitimize what they are doing.

Among else, found puppy mills using that website to advertise. Actually, one of those puppy mills had better looking and more legit looking dogs than the small hobby breeder websites also using the website to advertize.

One hobby breeder website had a lot of "Australian Labradoodle" dogs that were registered, their elbows were "negative" (LOL), and more than though - I looked at each of those dogs and could easily guess the different mix. 

Some of them were clearly mixed with goldens, some were clearly mixed with some kind of spaniel - in fact, I think there were at least 3 different spaniel breeds used in the mixes. The one consistent thing was the fact that they were all definitely poodle mixes. 

That's what I was talking about before. It's just all these people breeding anything and everything together.... and they call it something different to make them look better.  

It's nice that they are doing full clearances and doing some form of registration to keep track of pedigrees... but they've got a long way to go before becoming a registered AKC breed. If that's even what they plan on doing. There was no mention of that on the club website - probably because they would have to close the books.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

Ugh. Just ugh. I feel your pain. About a year ago, some good friends of ours were starting their search for a new puppy. They had fallen head over heels in love with our Goldens and we were under the impression that they were planning on getting a Golden puppy. They asked us all kinds of questions, like what to look for in a breeder and various other questions. We even referred them our breeder, who is a wonderful, very well-respected and well-known breeder. I also gave them the names of some other reputable breeders in our region so that they could have a few options. Then, one evening, I got a Facebook message from this friend and she told me that they had found a puppy and were so excited. She then sent me a picture of the mother, who was a Golden, and then came the picture of the father......a Bernese Mountain Dog....:doh: :doh: :doh: She was going on and on about how wonderful this breeder is and that she is very responsible just because she works for one of the local vets....:doh:. They call this dog a "Golden Berner" (insert eye roll here). And guess how much they paid for this "designer" dog??? $1250!!!!! Honest to god, if you want a mixed breed, go to a shelter or a rescue organization! There are PLENTY of mixed breeds there waiting for loving homes. It just infuriates me how people support these irresponsible and unethical "breeders," which encourage them to continue pumping out these mixed breed puppies and selling them for ridiculous amounts of money.


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

I'm sorry that I hurt anyone's feelings. I do sincerely apologize if I insulted you. That was NOT my intention.
I just wanted to express my frustration about poor breeding practices, which causes harm to all our dogs. It's never the dogs fault. I've had mutts all my life - purebred dogs are new to me and perhaps I have the 'zeal of the newly converted'.
What I can tell you about rescue mutts is that they have many if not more issues than purebred. Neglect, disability, difficult behaviour, inherited health issues - all creates massive issues for rescue dogs too.
They're wonderful individuals, and absolutely worthy of time and effort and love and understanding - but should they have been bred in the first place *for money*?
I dont believe so. 
When I had the chance to introduce a dog to our family with small children, I went for a purebred with a breed standard that stipulates gentleness. 
I'm sorry if I wasn't gentle in my explanation of why crossbreeds as 'designer' dogs is - in my opinion - a bad idea.


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## watterdog (Sep 6, 2013)

*Not to open a can or worms* (I know, too late), but just something to consider.....

Last night I watched the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. I so enjoy seeing all the different kinds of breeds that I don't often get to see. Love the different coats, colors, sizes and temperaments. 

The one thing I noticed in the descriptions of these dogs is how each breed was "created". I noticed many of the larger hunting dogs have "Griffons" in their lineage. The Wirehaired Pointing Griffon and the Brussels Griffons were bred to have their wire coats so they can perform better in the water. Also, many of the breeds had Schnauzer in their lineage for different reasons. 

So, I decided to do a bit of research on Golden Retrievers. I read the following description from different sources where Lord Tweedmouth in Scotland, who was looking to create a dog for hunting, specifically fowl. (He is generally credited with starting the Golden Retriever.)

_To accomplish this, he crossed a Wavy-Coated Retriever with a Tweed Water Spaniel. The result was four puppies with excellent bird-hunting abilities. Later, the yellow Wavy-Coated Retriever was cross-bred with Bloodhounds, black retrievers, setters, and Tweed Spaniels. This crossbreeding produced dogs with similar characteristics but with a distinct yellow flat coat. Some of these dogs entered the United States in the early 1900s with Lord Tweedmouth’s sons, and in 1912, they were formally recognized as the Golden (or Yellow) Retriever. This breed has since gained much popularity in America.
_
I guess ALL of our breeds come from somewhere, bred down and crossed, for the convenience of people. Shudder to think that someday, a "doodle" will be a breed unto itself??? But of course, they will give it a different name; something more sophisticated. I imagine the judges of Westminster cringe at the thought now, but who knows 25 years from now. :smile2:


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## Pammie (Jan 22, 2011)

A friend of mine posted this article on Facebook today.


A Designer Dog-Maker Regrets His Creation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...DXeY1fMmJnw8SBfGeyS7Skw7wqEozL0-x8WFnc2agNRQ4



I was in the lobby of a hotel in Toronto waiting to be picked up and taken to the venue where I was scheduled to give a talk. A well-dressed middle-aged woman was standing nearby with a sand-colored curly-haired dog. As I bent down to give the dog a friendly pat, she announced to me, "Molly is a purebred Labradoodle, just like the one that Jennifer Aniston has."
It amazes me how intelligent people can refer to an intentionally crossbred dog, such as the Labradoodle, as "purebred." The Labradoodle is a cross between the Labrador Retriever and the Poodle. It avoids the negative label of "mutt" or "mongrel" because it is a deliberate crossbreeding, and those who market such pups have come to refer to them as "designer dogs," a label designed to give them a hint of sophistication and elitism. There are many designer dogs now available and the majority involve crossbreeding Poodles with other breeds. Perhaps the earliest of these appeared in the 1950s, and it was the Cockapoo, a Cocker Spaniel/Poodle cross, which never achieved much popularity. Nowadays one can find a Goldendoodle (Golden Retriever/Poodle), Schnoodle (Miniature Schnauzer/Poodle), Cavoodles (Cavalier King Charles Spaniel/Poodle), Roodles (Rottweiller/Poodle), Yorkiepoo (Yorkshire Terrier/Poodle), Shihpoo (Shih Tzu/Poodle), Maltipoo (Maltese/Poodle), Poochon (Bichon Frise/Poodle), Lhasapoo (Lhasa Apso/Poodle) to name a few. Although there are other designer dog crosses, the Poodle is frequently entered into the mix in order to provide a non-shedding coat quality and a presumed hypoallergenic trait to the resultant pups.


Wally Conron
Source: Wally Conran, used with permission



I was fortunate enough to be able to interview Wally Conron a few years ago—the very man credited with the creation of the Labradoodle. Conron was the puppy breeding manager for the Royal Guide Dog Association of Australia in the 1980s when his boss set him a difficult task. A blind woman from Hawaii had written to ask if they could provide a guide dog that would not shed hair, because her husband was allergic to it. To quote Conron, "I said, 'Oh yes, this will be a piece of cake. The Standard Poodle is a working dog; it doesn't shed hair so it'll be great.' I tried 33 dogs in the course of three years and they all failed. They just didn't make the grade as guide dogs. Meanwhile, the woman in Hawaii was getting older and my boss was getting on my back."
Desperation drove Conron to consider an alternate course of action. The upshot was that he took his best female Labrador Retriever and mated it with a Standard Poodle. This resulted in a litter of three pups. With a long waiting list for people wishing to foster guide dog puppies, Conron was sure that he'd have no problem placing their three new crossbred dogs with a family to be trained and socialized before being enlisted in the guide dog program. Unfortunately, nobody would take them since everyone wanted a purebred dog. So that's when Conron came up with the name Labradoodle. According to him, "I went to our PR team and said, 'Go to the press and tell them we've invented a new dog, the Labradoodle.' It was a gimmick, and it went worldwide. It worked—during the weeks that followed, our switchboard was inundated with calls from potential dog fostering homes, other guide-dog centres, vision-impaired people and people allergic to dog hair who wanted to know more about this 'wonder dog.'"
Conron immediately discovered that since the Labradoodle is a hybrid and not a pure breed, the resulting puppies did not have consistently predictable characteristics. Although all Labradoodles have some common traits, their appearance, working-ability, and behavioral characteristics remain somewhat unpredictable. Even in the nature of their coat—the reason why the Poodle was originally part of the mix—there is lots of variability. Labradoodles' coats can vary from wiry to soft, and they may be curly, wavy, or straight. Straight-coated Labradoodles are said to have "hair" coats, wavy-coated dogs have "fleece" coats, and curly-coated dogs have "wool" coats. Many Labradoodles do shed, although the coat usually sheds less and has less dog odor than that of a Labrador Retriever. In the Labradoodle, there is also no certainty that the dog will be hypoallergenic. Conrad explains that the raison d'être for having these crosses in the first place was to prevent allergy symptoms, and that characteristic cannot be guaranteed by simply creating a Poodle cross. He complains, "This is what gets up my nose, if you'll pardon the expression. When the pups were five-months old, we sent clippings and saliva over to Hawaii to be tested with this woman's husband. Of the three pups, he was not allergic to one of them. In the next litter I had, there were 10 pups, but only three had non-allergenic coats. Now, people are breeding these dogs and selling them as non-allergenic, and they're not even testing them!"
He continues his lament saying, "Get on the internet and verify it for yourself. All these backyard breeders have jumped on the bandwagon, and they're crossing any kind of dog with a poodle. They're selling them for more than a purebred is worth and they're not going into the backgrounds of the parents of the dogs. There are so many poodle crosses having fits, problems with their eyes, hips and elbows, and a lot have epilepsy. There are a few ethical breeders, but very very few.
"I opened a Pandora's box, that's what I did. I released a Frankenstein. So many people are just breeding for the money. So many of these dogs have physical problems, and a lot of them are just crazy.
"You know that American president Obama announced he was thinking of getting a Labradoodle. So I wrote him a letter saying what the pitfalls were. I said 'If you are going to buy a Labradoodle, check both of the parents, make sure they have a certificate. A lot of them are untrainable, and a lot of them are no good for people with allergies.' I don't know if he was listening to me but he didn't get one in the end.
"Today I am internationally credited as the first person to breed the Labradoodle. People ask me 'Aren't you proud of yourself?' I tell them 'No! Not in the slightest.' I've done so much harm to pure breeding and made so many charlatans quite rich. I wonder, in my retirement, whether we bred a designer dog—or a disaster!"
I finished my interview with him by asking if he has ever kept a Labradoodle as a pet. "No way!" he told me in a shocked tone of voice. "My dogs are Labrador Retrievers—Rocky and Jazz. I only ever bred 31 Labradoodles. I'm on a pension and live in a little shoebox flat. If I'd gone into breeding Labradoodles for a living, I'd be on easy street. But there was no way I'd do it. My conscience wouldn't let me."


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

I know I shouldn't, but.... Watterdog, what's going on here?
Tweedmouth bred his dogs for a distinct working purpose. They were bread to sit quietly in the cold wet Scottish hunting blind in the autumn, follow their owners, sight the gun, watch the fowl fall, run out and collect it - without eating it or damaging it, then do the same thing again and again for hours. Then go home and be good with the kids.
They were also made a true new breed, because they breed 'true'. If you mate 2 goldens, you get a golden.
What is the purpose of a goldendoodle? There isn't one that I can see. 
They don't breed true - breed 2 goldendoodles, and out if a litter of 4 puppies, you'll most likely get 1 who looks like a poodle, one who looks like a golden, and two who look like something in-between....
They are not a true breed, and will never be due to the fact that they're simply bred for a quick buck as a fashionable hybrid, and sold to people who don't know any better.


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

...and don't get me started on the 'Bull-Shihtz' or 'Jack-Shihtz'.. Yes, apparently these are "Designer Dogs", and that is a "Thing"...
Dunning Kruger effect, anyone?


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

HollyB said:


> ...and don't get me started on the 'Bull-Shihtz' or 'Jack-Shihtz'.. Yes, apparently these are "Designer Dogs", and that is a "Thing"...
> Dunning Kruger effect, anyone?


Oh good grief! Those I hadn't heard of yet. Why would you want your dog's "breed" to sound like cussing!? I certainly wouldn't want you telling my child you have a Bull-s***! I thought the "Dorkie" I used to groom was about the worst one I'd heard, but these top that by far-at least Dorkie wasn't a cuss word!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

watterdog said:


> *Not to open a can or worms* (I know, too late), but just something to consider.....
> 
> Last night I watched the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show. I so enjoy seeing all the different kinds of breeds that I don't often get to see. Love the different coats, colors, sizes and temperaments.
> 
> ...



You're not opening a can of worms. It's part of this discussion, earlier in the thread. And it's an argument people have tried to make for years in favour of doodles.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

My thing with labradoodles are most are coming from backyard breeders who are popping puppies out at unforsaken amounts without regard to the mother. Or any of the breeds. Slap a $950-1300 price tag on the dog and it suddenly becomes “pure” because of the price. There’s no regard for health or temperament of the dam/sire. I’ve encountered both labs and poodles with aggression issues more than most people would like to admit. Labs can be some of the nastiest dogs if they aren’t trained or bred carefully. There’s one at my dog training club who about went psychotic when my puppy walked by slowly. Not in the kennel area it’s supposed to be in. I can’t even imagine if that dog was bred to a lab let alone a poodle with possible aggression issues. I know of a doodle who presented with some aggression issues towards strangers mid-life. 

And what boggles my mind is people who say, “Oh you can’t be allergic to a doodle. It’s hypo-allergenic hair.” Yeah right. Put someone with a dog allergy next to one and they’ll be in respiratory distress within 10 minutes. I’ve watched it! Awful.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Labs can be some of the nastiest dogs if they aren’t trained or bred carefully. There’s one at my dog training club who about went psychotic when my puppy walked by slowly.


It's the cost of being the most popular dog per AKC.

AKC isn't doing a poll on which dogs people like the most.

Their yearly list is based on registrations.

Labs are at the top because more people are breeding them, and more pups are getting registered and being bred down the road. That's a lot of puppy mills, backyard breeders, commercial breeders - and all kinds of dogs just randomly being bred. 

Shelters and rescues are full of these dogs for 2 reasons - just litters produced whether or not there are buyers and the dogs have problems (health or temperament). Doing all the doodle breeding is another facet of that. 

And now you have people getting into the act with goldens since the protections which even bad golden breeders use to limit breeding by pet owners goes out the window when you have somebody who doesn't care whether the dogs have papers or not. 

And these dogs are bred to poodles who likewise have a reputation for being snappish and nasty towards other dogs, especially the miniature poodles. Miniature poodles are frequently obedience dogs because they are manageable sizes, very athletic, and smart. But they growl and snap at people and dogs alike sometimes.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Just positive constructive sharing. These are getting shared around by friends on FB. 

Sometimes I think people get hooked on different fads - and are hooked into profiting really awful breeders here in the US and elsewhere, because they don't actually know that there are other breeds (legit purebred breeds) that look like what they are hoping to get in a mixed breed. This even includes the golden retriever breed!!!

Some of the people out there that go nuts buying european style goldens do so because they want something different than the typical backyard bred golden retriever. When people see show bred goldens though - they go all gaga.  If you live somewhere like I do - 99% of the golden retrievers about town have come from backyard breeders. These are really nice dogs, but they come in all shapes and sizes and coats and heads are this way and that way. 

A lot of the things people say they want in a european style golden, they can get in a well bred show bred golden + if they maintain that dog very well and keep them intact until they are full grown + keep them groomed. 

Have seen a lot of european style goldens here and there who in the hands of regular pet owners are not groomed or maintained and were neutered too early - and they develop the same looks as some of the backyard bred American style goldens with the addition of really stained coats + health problems due to indiscriminate breeding behind them. 

Another thing is I don't think a lot of people really know the poodle breed very well either - because almost all poodles people come in contact without outside of dog shows are the minis who can be very nasty dogs (snappy little gremlins). 

Standard poodles are great dogs. Watching them at shows - I completely get why they win so much. They athletic, agile, beautiful moving beasts. One of the things that I hate the most about the whole doodle-everything push we see today is the slaughter of the poodle breed in the public persona. They have been downgraded to just a breed-to-everything dog. 

Anyway - there's a lot of nice breeds out there which regular people who are looking for their next dog and even coming close to thinking about getting a mixed breed, should look into. 

These are purebred breeds which will likewise need special grooming at professional groomer (there's just no way regular people are going to get the dogs looking nice trimming them up at home!!! LOL) + the owner needs to learn how to groom their own dogs on a brushing/combing daily weekly scale as well. There's no excuse for bringing a matted dog to a professional groomer - among else, it's abusive to leave your dog like that.

But these are nice breeds + you have everything you would expect to get from purebred breed. Type/Predictability/reputable breeders/loaded pedigrees in many cases, and the excitement of knowing the specific breed history and origins of your purebred dog.


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Megora said:


> Just positive constructive sharing. These are getting shared around by friends on FB.
> 
> Sometimes I think people get hooked on different fads - and are hooked into profiting really awful breeders here in the US and elsewhere, because they don't actually know that there are other breeds (legit purebred breeds) that look like what they are hoping to get in a mixed breed. This even includes the golden retriever breed!!!
> 
> ...


I LOVE this! And those breeds do very much have the look I think most people are going for when they want a doodle. Plus, those breeds all have a poodle-type coat that would be guaranteed to be minimal shedding, unlike a doodle where you never know. I'll have to remember these breeds so I can make suggestions to people who I hear are considering doodles!

Since I am a professional groomer, I recently ran a contest on my facebook grooming page. I put up 1 photo of a doodle groomed like a standard poodle (clean face) and then several photos of standard poodles in the teddy bear clip. The contest was to guess which ones where doodles and which ones where poodles, and if you got them all right you got a prize. Nobody got the prize. My hope is that the contest made people think. I often get doodle owners who ask me to make sure their dog doesn't look like a poodle (and I'm thinking its at least half poodle, how can it not look like a poodle? And what's wrong with how a poodle looks? I can understand having preferences on looks, so if you don't like how a poodle looks, why'd you get a dog with poodle in it?-things you wish you could say to clients! lol), but I think what they usually mean is they don't want the clean face and feet. I wanted them to see that a standard poodle can look like what they want. I honestly think I'd rather see someone get a purebred dog from a backyard breeder than a doodle or other mix. At least there is some predictability?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I honestly think I'd rather see someone get a purebred dog from a backyard breeder than a doodle or other mix. At least there is some predictability?


Well, more predictability than breeding mixed breeds. 

I do think you get more predictability and typiness when you purchase a purebred pup from a good breeder who has access to not just the nice dog they own, but they are selecting studs to improve on what they want in puppies. 

This typiness isn't just conformation bred dogs. It's the field and performance bred ones as well. 

Around where I live here in MI - there's people coming to the training clubs with goldens from High Times, Sunfire, Topbrass, Gaylan, Tanbark, and Wynwood. And I can usually tell which breeder by looking at the dogs. These different breeders produce very typey stuff even though the pups may be different than conformation bred goldens. 

When you have somebody on their own who is just breeding to nice looking dogs and have a mishmash of things behind their dogs, they lose some of that typiness. <= Though the dogs still look like goldens!


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

I feel the need to add to this discussion. I work with all breeds of dogs in my business including the ones stereotyped as aggressive(Dutch Shepherd, Rottweiler, Pitbull, cane corso). I’ve never been concerned with handling any of them. In fact the Dutchies and Rotties are some of my favorites!

Today I was bit for the first time ever. Was simply putting a leash on a golden/poodle mix(I won’t humor the fad by calling them by their cutesy name). These poodle mixes are some of the most unstable unpredictable dogs I have to deal with. I enjoy Poodles and Love my Goldens, but mix the two and you get disaster. Temperament does not match up at all! Not only that, these people mixing these breeds get the worst of the worst to use. No reputable breeder would sell these profiteers one of their puppies to ruin.

I believe I have enough experience with breeds and mixes to confidently state that if you like a breed, get that breed! Poodle mixes shed much to the contrary of the marketing lies of these people speed. They do not at all act like either breed they are mixed with.... more like a science experiment gone wrong.

I really hope this fad dies out soon, but until people educate themselves I’m not sure it will.....


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Mac, hope your bite is okay! Those hurt.

I can't belive the doodle breeders are trash talking each other. The "Cobber" dog is claiming to be the BEST and only doodle. Sigh,


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Doolin said:


> I feel the need to add to this discussion. I work with all breeds of dogs in my business including the ones stereotyped as aggressive(Dutch Shepherd, Rottweiler, Pitbull, cane corso). I’ve never been concerned with handling any of them. In fact the Dutchies and Rotties are some of my favorites!
> 
> Today I was bit for the first time ever. Was simply putting a leash on a golden/poodle mix(I won’t humor the fad by calling them by their cutesy name). These poodle mixes are some of the most unstable unpredictable dogs I have to deal with. I enjoy Poodles and Love my Goldens, but mix the two and you get disaster. Temperament does not match up at all! Not only that, these people mixing these breeds get the worst of the worst to use. No reputable breeder would sell these profiteers one of their puppies to ruin.
> 
> ...


NO joke! I am a groomer and doodles have really weird temperaments-have several that need muzzles. My sister in law has a doodle that will absolutely bite if another dog goes near her food so that makes me really nervous to have my toddler around her at family gatherings. I supervise very closely that's for sure! She also goes ballistic if someone comes to the door-or even walks by-and once went flying across the room jumping ON TOP of my other sister in law who was sitting in a chair holding her sleeping infant. After that incident, my sister in law with the infant thanked me for having such a well-trained dog. Thing is, they take this doodle to training classes and its still this bad. (Course, they way she "corrects" the dog is doing a very cutesy, un- threatening "pst, pst" sound when it jumps on people, counter surfs, attacks another dog for getting too close to her food-or attacks the other dog eating it own food-not a very effective method of training, as I'm sure you know!) But I hear from so many trainers about how awful these poodle mixes are to train!


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## Goldens&Friesians (May 31, 2014)

Ljilly28 said:


> Mac, hope your bite is okay! Those hurt.
> 
> I can't belive the doodle breeders are trash talking each other. The "Cobber" dog is claiming to be the BEST and only doodle. Sigh,


Oh brother! Cobber dog-that's one I only just recently heard of. Rolling my eyes. And the "Australian labradoodle" is also supposed to be superior. I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.


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## savannabanna (May 22, 2018)

My mom just bought an old American molossus... look it up. Its some ancient breed being brought back in a designer fashion. The breeder was not a good breeder. The pups were transported to their destination in an old small bus piled with crates. Apparently during their entire 10 day trip.. which took twice as long. Their feet never touched grass. One transporter held the pup the other would clean the puppy crate and then back in it went. It was terrible to say.. mom got the pup at 8 weeks old. It was lethargic and weak and walked funny. Doing great now.. but definitely not bred for health.. just for looks and money. Usually tail and ears are docked.. mom only had the tip of the tail docked recently which I'm glad she waited. But that poor pup. He's 4 months old and weighs 64 lbs.. not even fat.. my 1 year old Charlie (golden) is only 4 pounds heavier! (Rant over).. mom tried complaining to the breeder about the maltreatment and got nothing back... pretty sure this was the pairing.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Neopolitan mastiff and great dane???? mix? Am guessing without looking up.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Neo and English Mastiff or maybe Neo and Cane is my guess... No idea though


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

This guy might be asking for trouble with the way Neo's can be temperament wise, and the size of these dogs... could be disaster waiting to happen.


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## savannabanna (May 22, 2018)

Megora said:


> Neopolitan mastiff and great dane???? mix? Am guessing without looking up. <img src="http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/images/smilies/frown.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Frown" class="inlineimg" />


 it's a neapolitan and then basically through generations different purebreds with specific features to get a specific temperament and size and what have you.. so eventually hes hoping to make it it's own "purebreed"


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## savannabanna (May 22, 2018)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> This guy might be asking for trouble with the way Neo's can be temperament wise, and the size of these dogs... could be disaster waiting to happen.


 I'm more concerned about cancer. I grew up with a golden and a neapolitan mastiff. The mastiff had to be put down with cancer at about 6 or 8 years old. The other one before him that my step dad owned was put down for the same thing but had bit my uncle before that anyways... they are just stubborn an power horses.. with an ok owner and decent temperaments in parents it would be ok but screw up either of those you're going to have a sick dog with a short lifespan and possibly nasty behaviours.


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## savannabanna (May 22, 2018)

This is the pup at about 3.5 months old I think. A 12 year old is holding him! He seems good for now but he is strong willed and stubborn.


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## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

I think a lot of the poor behavior seen with doodles is that the people who buy doodles are not the kind of people that do a lot of research...they didn't research the "breed" before getting it and they don't research how to properly train a dog either. So you get a bouncy dog (standard poodles are bouncy as all get out) who is SUPER smart matched with an owner who is often a first time dog owner, with no clue how to handle the dog, and who is expecting some Mary Poppins creature who is magically going to be practically perfect in every way with no effort on their part whatsoever. Basically, the owner is outwitted and outlasted by the high energy and intelligence of the dog. 

There is no real reason a poodle/golden cross couldn't be a decently behaved dog, but it would take someone with knowhow and well, those are not the people buying doodles. 

There are some who come from parents with health clearances, etc but most of the time it is from someone who is lying through their teeth, making claims that are impossible. I mean, the old adage holds - if it sounds too good to be true it probably is! My personal favorite right now are the "English Goldendoodles". take the goldendoodle fad, add in the "english golden" fad, and you get English Goldendoodles = big money. 

I've NEVER recommended them, always recommended other breeds for people with allergies/shedding issues, etc. And now, after making fun of doodles......I just adopted one. Never say never, right? But at least I didn't pay thousands of dollars for a mutt! I rescued this one from a reputable rescue group, just like I rescued my other mutt. And my one purebreed was found on the side of the road, so also a rescue. So I'm sure people will ask me how much I love golden doodles now, and I'll tell them I love my dog, but don't recommend spending big money to get a mixed breed dog!


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

We met three goldendoodles on a riverside walk on Sunday. They were all three bouncy, forward, and ignoring their owners...
None of them were aggressive or badly behaved, but they were a weird sort of 'veloceraptor' kind of dog: smarter than the average pooch, and prepared to push the advantage....
I wasn't sure what to make of them. Neither was Scotty. Bad mannered louts that need some lessons in doggy etiquette, or our overlords, who must be obeyed?
Odd dogs....


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