# Breaking news--Cesar Millan to be arrested?



## OutWest

I just saw this on Facebook. Evidently an arrest warrant has been issued for Cesar Millan (probably for animal cruelty). He did a show recently where he used live pigs as training "bait" for a dog that has killed two pigs. When the dog was let off leash, it took off and attacked. One pig got a shredded ear. 

A group of anti-Cesar people have been pushing for action since. Animal Control has been revising the tape and I guess decided to proceed. 

If you are on Facebook and want to see the video and read the list of events, check out Jill Breitner. She's evidently lifted all privacy restrictions on her page so people can review and comment.

Whatever your opinion of CM, this is a big development in the universe of dog training.


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## Ljilly28

I am really torn about this. I feel as though CM both prospered and was chewed up and spit out by the America Dream and reality TV. At his core he used to love dogs and be a virtuoso natural with them. The problem comes with trying to teach Joe Public to use "methods" that are largely intuitive to him as an individual. I read his take on his own suicide attempt which might have been about 2010, and I felt sorry then that it had all gotten too big to be sustained. The last episode of C 911 he could barely talk- his voice was spent, and he was kind of sleepwalking through his lexicon of stale phrases and advice. He tried to pander to the science/positve trainers and now he backlashed to some really heavy-handed training. I think it was all over with the Holly the lab bite. I blame Nat Geo for setting him up with airing the pig episode as results are predictable. It isn't even bleeding heart for the pig but just he looks like a hack trainer letting thing spiral out of control while chasing after the dog the way people do at the dog park when fido won't come. It was pretty bad bite to the big, and it had to have been edited to make him look like he didn't care, and then it cuts to the llama we all love. I am no fan of CM as a do trainer, but I do think he is getting sold down the river now by reality tv.


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## Megora

Hmm... you'd think if he were arrested it would be in the news...


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## OutWest

Ljilly28 said:


> I am really torn about this. I feel as though CM both prospered and was chewed up and spit out by the America Dream and reality TV. At his core he used to love dogs and be a virtuoso natural with them. The problem comes with trying to teach Joe Public to use "methods" that are largely intuitive to him as an individual. I read his take on his own suicide attempt which might have been about 2010, and I felt sorry then that it had all gotten too big to be sustained. The last episode of C 911 he could barely talk- his voice was spent, and he was kind of sleepwalking through his lexicon of stale phrases and advice. He tried to pander to the science/positve trainers and now he backlashed to some really heavy-handed training. I think it was all over with the Holly the lab bite. I blame Nat Geo for setting him up with airing the pig episode as results are predictable. It isn't even bleeding heart for the pig but just he looks like a hack trainer letting thing spiral out of control while chasing after the dog the way people do at the dog park when fido won't come. It was pretty bad bite to the big, and it had to have been edited to make him look like he didn't care, and then it cuts to the llama we all love. I am no fan of CM as a do trainer, but I do think he is getting sold down the river now by reality tv.


I don't think I will celebrate if he's arrested. But perhaps it might lead to an informed discussion about the long-term effects of different types of training.

If all you've said is true, it sounds as if Cesar has not been in control of his own show for some time. 

After watching the pig video, IMO National Geo should suffer legal consequences also. They aired the segment and benefited from it. 

I know here will be a lot of debate about all of this. I guess that's a good thing if it improves the lives of dogs.


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## Megora

Anyone else feeling skeptical? I mean I am not a CM fan... and have no opinion on what he does in his shows (although I did see an episode or two where he handled wolf/dog mixes and actually had no problem with the content, I thought it was really interesting). I really think he brings the +R crazies out of the woodwork. And probably the reason why his show has continued to boom is because of all the crazies watching his show and looking for things to be angry about. :uhoh:

Reading the TMZ and the NBC bit posted on that FB page - it doesn't say anything about an outright arrest. And directly after that was posted you suddenly were having that lady calling for people to flood that website and others with anti-CM stuff and pushing the petition. 

Which to put this in context - there is nothing in the news about him being arrested. But looking at the news showing up on my FB... there's stuff about a young dog being tortured and killed and stuffed inside a cage wrapped with plastic. I'm less concerned about a pig getting its ear shredded (using the AR description, but according to the CM people was just a bite that was immediately treated and the pig is healed) by a dog that most +R trainers wouldn't take on without heavily medicating the dog or recommending rehoming/euthanizing the dog... and more concerned that we don't have this many people getting militant about the monsters out there who are torturing and killing dogs. 

And the pig didn't die, btw. 



> "Cesar Millan has dedicated his life to helping dogs and to showing how even the most difficult “problem dog” can be rescued and rehabilitated. In a recent episode of the Nat Geo WILD series "Cesar 911," Cesar works with an aggressive French bulldog/terrier mix named Simon, who has a history of attacking other animals, including his owner’s pet potbellied pigs. A short clip from the episode was shared online and showed Simon chasing a pig and nipping its ear, causing the ear to bleed. The clip caused some concern for viewers who did not see or understand the full context of the encounter.
> 
> "We have included an additional clip from the same episode [click here to download] to provide missing context. Cesar has created a safe and controlled environment at his Dog Psychology Center (DPC) in California in which to rehabilitate some of the most extreme — or “red zone” — cases of dog aggression, such as Simon’s. It is important to clarify that Cesar took precautions, such as putting Simon on a long lead to assess his behavior, before making initial corrections and removing the leash. The pig that was nipped by Simon was tended to immediately afterward, healed quickly and showed no lasting signs of distress. As the additional clip reveals, Cesar and his animal pack effectively helped Simon to overcome his aggressive behavior toward other animals; as a result, Simon did not have to be separated from his owner or euthanized."


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## OutWest

I think time will tell. What I heard was that an arrest warrant had been issued--not that he'd been arrested. It's one more part of the Cesar saga.


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## Ljilly28

Megora said:


> Anyone else feeling skeptical? I really think he brings the +R crazies out of the woodwork.


I have never met an R+ crazy  I have met ALOT of aversive crazies kicking dogs, smacking them, shocking them to teach stay to a 12 week old puppy, and repair their messes for a living. Is CM one of those seems to be the media question on NBC news today. 

However the CM issue seems culturally larger, and very enmeshed in culture beyond just dog training- fame and the price tag for it, the individual and the goliath of the media. . . .

I do agree with Outwest that he has done a lot of harm to dogs through his example, but I hate to see him be a sacrificial lamb for Nat Geo to spike ratings.


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## Tennyson

The video in question
Cesar Millan Under Investigation For Animal Cruelty After Dog Attacks Pig (VIDEO)


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## Megora

Ljilly28 said:


> I have never met an R+ crazy


Oh believe me, I HAVE. And believe me, they are related or sound just like animal rights activists in various ways. 

There's a lot of people out there who forget that dogs are dogs (ie animals) and not children. I'm right there along with everyone else out there who loves her dogs to the moon and back, but they are not people and do not have "rights". 

Our dogs from day one are trained to be good docile animals who do exactly what we want. We don't allow them to be feral in our homes. We work with them and encourage the behaviors and temperaments that we want. 

And sometimes you have dogs who need a stronger hand than others.

While it's bad that you have so-called trainers who do not differentiate between a soft dog and a hard dog...

It's also bad when you have so-called trainers who do not differentiate between a hard dog and soft dog. 

Meaning that there's no difference between a trainer who kills all dogs dead with rough handling across the board... and a trainer who is afraid to upset a dog that quickly learns through trial and error that he is the alpha dog. 

A lot of people misuse the terminology, but basically speaking if you watch multiple dogs, hierarchy is a really big thing to them. They sort out who is boss amongst themselves. It's learned completely through body language and trial and error. 

I've seen my three boys sort out who is where on the scale... our collie is tops and the goldens sort out below him. The two goldens are pretty equal - and if you left that up to nature, it would mean them fighting it out and the more macho dog chasing the other dog away from his resources. I will not allow fighting in my home. So it's very important to assert authority. And that doesn't mean hanging dogs or throwing them around. 

We are lucky in our breed, btw, because our dogs generally tend to be good-natured and easygoing around other dogs. We don't have to deal with dog aggression to often. That said though - we do deal with resource guarding issues and various behaviors because our dogs are still dogs. It might not come to our dogs mauling us, but with other breeds that IS a problem. 

I remember somebody brought a rottweiler puppy in to puppy class (this years ago back when my sister was assisting classes) and that owner received different training advice than most of the other trainers. Because how he was raised determined how successful they were at raising a sound and safe dog. 

A lot of the trainers on the extreme ends of things do no adequately notice the difference between a very dominant breed (or specific dog) and a very soft breed (or specific dog). And how they handle these dogs will set them up for fail as far as training these dogs.

But back to the point - if you just have people sticking to extreme ends as far as communicating with dogs and training them...

Both types of trainers are going to be failures who resort to throwing the dog away (rehoming), drugging the dog (all kinds of meds), and or even recommending putting a dog down rather than adapt their training methods to what is more appropriate. 

While following that FB page last night - I saw a lot of yahoos posting on there who probably have only trained fluffy golden retrievers or very similar dogs who get all shocked and shrill about somebody using corrections on a dog. And or they do idol worship of one set of trainers while echoing criticism of other trainers. You see this a lot of the time with people who in our time grow up with the "good and evil" mindset in life. They feel that in order to be assured of their own positions, they have to know who the bad guy is. In order to obtain praise and affirmation for themselves, they have to attack and destroy someone else. It's a sport and they root for their teams. 

In the case of what followed and gathered from people - they want CM removed and they want a +R program put in its place. I'm sure they would never admit this, but a prime niche of advertisement for themselves is created by bashing everyone else and making people think that going to a balanced trainer or adhering to any training "creed" that uses corrections is the same as kissing Hitler. 

Reflect on all the conversations we've seen here! I've seen people who probably are very nice people in "real life" who all but openly accuse other people of creating dogs who are going to turn fearful or aggressive because their owners said "no" or used a pop correction or whatnot. Never mind the fact that the people who use corrections do not have fearful or aggressive dogs and generally do not have any problems at all with their dogs. 

The world would be a complete mess, btw, if all dogs became aggressive just because they received training with a shock collar. Think of all the people who have invisible fencing and pay a company to come in and "train" the dogs for the fencing. 

Just my feeling after being around a lot of dog trainers that do not belong to one end or another and genuinely have successful and happy dogs.

The whole CM thing is scary because following that facebook page - I saw a hatchet job. Somebody looking to destroy another person and his business. And there was a mob of mindless followers who did not see anything wrong with that. 

Keep in mind a lot of these people would advocate that the dog who kept trying to kill his owners pigs - they'd advocate throwing him away (because I'm sure they've done that with their own dogs) or putting him down.


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## Alaska7133

I agree the whole Animal Rights things is way out of hand. There is a huge difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare. I'm all about Animal Welfare. We need to put a stop to these Animal Rights people dictating laws and penalties in this country. Heck they've taken over Europe and Canada too!


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## Swampcollie

I'm not a big CM fan, but this is simply a hatchet job. 

The man's reputation will be smeared by the crazies. But in official channels nothing will happen except wasting a lot of taxpayer dollars.


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## GoldenCamper

Could someone enlighten me to what "+R" means?


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## Megora

As I'm referring to is, using positive only methods to the exclusion of using any correction.


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## GoldenCamper

So "R" isn't the first letter of a word but trainer slang maybe? Sorry for the questions but I never saw it used before.


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## mylissyk

R+ = positive reinforcement
Anything the trainer GIVES to the subject immediately following a
behaviour which tends to increase the likelihood of the behaviour being
repeated. For example, giving a dog a slice of nuked hotdog for staying
in heel position.


http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/P+2.txt


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## rabernet

GoldenCamper said:


> So "R" isn't the first letter of a word but trainer slang maybe? Sorry for the questions but I never saw it used before.


Here's a good link about R+ training. It's the training method that I choose to train Noah (thus my fandom for Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and Susan Garrett's methods of training). 

R+ Misconceptions - eileenanddogseileenanddogs


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## GoldenFocus

I saw that he was under investigation for animal cruelty. Never watched his show so I don't know anything about him.


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## mm2k14

There is a big difference between a correction of "no" and using an e-collar. Personally I am not a fan of leash corrections. It takes an incredible amount of skill at timing, and let's just face it-- the vast majority of people cannot do it correctly. In the video in question with the pigs, for example, CM mistimes his leash correction. If a trainer is capable of effectively and humanely using more 'aversive methods,' and the animal is not being injured, then it is not my place to say anything. It isn't what I would do, and it isn't what I would done to my pets, but it's your choice. 

We all know this dog had killed pigs before. It is a very bad idea to cut the dog completely loose without any sort of fencing or protection for the pigs. I personally believe a lot of what is seen on that show is set up to make good television. The show wouldn't be very exciting if the dogs didn't misbehave. What is going to get you more views: very slowly training (hours) the dog to control himself around pigs, or a dramatic show of the animal chasing pigs around the area?

The dog was doing just fine on leash. It wasn't great of anything, but he wasn't attacking them. He even did well enough off leash. Again, a very poor idea, and the dog was exhibiting stress signals left and right. The problem with the video that I see is that the dog didn't attack the pig until one of the PAs held it in place and made it squeal. The guy was holding on to the pig while the dog attacked it, and then once it got loose no one could control the dog and the whole dramatic chase scene ensued. My problems are as follows: 1) Little to no safety consideration for the pigs used. 2) He basically set up the dog to fail. There was no way any trainer in a similar situation would have gone, "Yes, it's a great idea to cut this dog completely loose. He can totally manage."

I'm not going to get into the other things I noticed. I am not a fan of CM's training methods, but putting that aside, there are still problems. Either the Nat Geo/CM's team had no idea it was going to happen (incompetence), or they didn't care (ratings). Either way, there's a problem.


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## GoldenCamper

Thank you both mylissyk and rabernet for the clarification. Figured I would ask if others like me were bewildered.

I have never been a fan of Cesar FWIW. I'm sure the guy loves dogs though.


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## Wenderwoman

I've never really seen anything that made it seem like he abused animals. This just seems like poor judgment so I would need to see more instances before I really said he did to intentionally abuse those poor pigs. Which is really what it means to abuse an animal... to intentionally put them in a dog fighting ring, intentionally put them on a lead and leave them to freeze outside, intentionally starve them to death... none of those seem to be how Cesar Milan treats animals. I don't think he intentionally put that dog in there with the pig so that it could attack it.

On the other hand, I can't say I learned a whole lot from his training techniques. I recommend people actually take their dog to training classes and not watch shows about training.

I did alright training my first dog without assistance but I ignored a lot of things CM said about dominating your dog or things I've read about from other trainers simply because I never wanted my dog to be afraid of me. So, I never would yell, hit, shock or use any device that caused them pain. BUT, none of my dogs have ever been dangerous. If they were dangerous, I would probably take them to a shelter because I would never be able to handle them. I'm not sure many people would do what CM tries to do. I think it was just poor judgment. I'm sure he's not happy about what happened, both for the pigs sake and the dog too. I've watched the video and the dog wasn't in berserk mode or anything. I think he just made a poor judgment.

I don't know, I think it's just a tough situation. He was a guy trying to save these dogs that most people would get rid of or decide should be euthanized. He got a lot of people to think differently about "damaged" or difficult dogs. If he gets ruined, these dogs will lose that momentum and rather than wanting to deal with them and risk getting arrested, they'll just be dumped at a shelter or killed.

I'm not sure where I stand, this is just some of my thoughts on it.


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## Ljilly28

rabernet said:


> Here's a good link about R+ training. It's the training method that I choose to train Noah (thus my fandom for Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and Susan Garrett's methods of training).
> 
> R+ Misconceptions - eileenanddogseileenanddogs


I share both the fandom and the methods with Rabernet. I haven't met anyone related to PETA or crazy animal rights movements through working with R+ training, but I do know what Megora means about some of the Facebook stuff. 

The case of CM though speaks to so many issues in culture beyond dogs training. He has spoken so sincerely about his embodiment of the American dream- coming to America the land of opportunity and making good Teddy Roosevelt style through his own hard work. He loves America, and there was a heyday in which America loved him back.

Digging deeper though, it is very rare for someone to go so extremely public about a suicide attempt as Cesar Milan did, and maybe it is the teacher in me or just the human empathy that has me worried about this vulnerable person's mental health under this kind of attack. It reminds me of the vietnam writer Tim O'Brian who wrote about his own intensely private experience for the New York Times, and then later rued the day and wished it could be unpublished bc it was just too private ( https://www.nytimes.com/books/98/09/20/specials/obrien-vietnam.html) . It is a beautiful essay in many ways, and it calls to mind the plight of CM who has now lived out his career and private life on behalf of National Geographic TV, who seems to have now set him up to take a big fall through their editing and choice of episodes to air. 

I just think it is sad for him to get eaten alive by the angry monster that invented him in the first place regardless of his chops as a dog trainer.


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## Megora

mm2k14 said:


> There is a big difference between a correction of "no" and using an e-collar. Personally I am not a fan of leash corrections. It takes an incredible amount of skill at timing, and let's just face it-- the vast majority of people cannot do it correctly. In the video in question with the pigs, for example, CM mistimes his leash correction. If a trainer is capable of effectively and humanely using more 'aversive methods,' and the animal is not being injured, then it is not my place to say anything. It isn't what I would do, and it isn't what I would done to my pets, but it's your choice.
> 
> We all know this dog had killed pigs before. It is a very bad idea to cut the dog completely loose without any sort of fencing or protection for the pigs. I personally believe a lot of what is seen on that show is set up to make good television. The show wouldn't be very exciting if the dogs didn't misbehave. What is going to get you more views: very slowly training (hours) the dog to control himself around pigs, or a dramatic show of the animal chasing pigs around the area?
> 
> The dog was doing just fine on leash. It wasn't great of anything, but he wasn't attacking them. He even did well enough off leash. Again, a very poor idea, and the dog was exhibiting stress signals left and right. The problem with the video that I see is that the dog didn't attack the pig until one of the PAs held it in place and made it squeal. The guy was holding on to the pig while the dog attacked it, and then once it got loose no one could control the dog and the whole dramatic chase scene ensued. My problems are as follows: 1) Little to no safety consideration for the pigs used. 2) He basically set up the dog to fail. There was no way any trainer in a similar situation would have gone, "Yes, it's a great idea to cut this dog completely loose. He can totally manage."
> 
> I'm not going to get into the other things I noticed. I am not a fan of CM's training methods, but putting that aside, there are still problems. Either the Nat Geo/CM's team had no idea it was going to happen (incompetence), or they didn't care (ratings). Either way, there's a problem.


Thinking outside the box here - the whole point in exposing the dog to the pigs was to set him up so he could be corrected. That was the whole point. 

I believe I read that the pig was taken care of immediately and is healed and isn't traumatized. And the owner isn't having any further problems with the pig and the dog or whatnot. 

Other thing is it doesn't take any more incredible timing to use leash corrections than you need for rewarding your dog. Both areas can be mistimed with the hapless owner chanting praise to their pulling dog or rewarding their dogs as he breaks the position the owner wants to reward. 

A lot of people prefer you treat a dog until it is useless rather than beat the dog (which put that way, I'd prefer it too).

But corrections are not always heavy and hard. The softer the dog, the softer the correction is needed.


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## Jud

rabernet said:


> Here's a good link about R+ training. It's the training method that I choose to train Noah (thus my fandom for Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and Susan Garrett's methods of training).
> 
> R+ Misconceptions - eileenanddogseileenanddogs


I find Cesar Milan's methods to be about exerting unnatural pressure on the dog that I have read has caused problems for many dogs. Big backlash over his methods. I certainly would never use his methods as I find them almost passive-aggressive towards the dog. But who am I to judge?


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## Jud

Jud said:


> I find Cesar Milan's methods to be about exerting unnatural pressure on the dog that I have read has caused problems for many dogs. Big backlash over his methods. I certainly would never use his methods as I find them almost passive-aggressive towards the dog. But who am I to judge?


I am the anti-Cesar. It is time for me to write a book as I have had 5 amazing dogs and two goldens..one passed and one puppy who worships me for the right reasons.. because of the love I give her and the security....not Cesar's 'chinese water-torture ways'


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## mm2k14

Megora said:


> Thinking outside the box here - the whole point in exposing the dog to the pigs was to set him up so he could be corrected. That was the whole point.
> 
> I believe I read that the pig was taken care of immediately and is healed and isn't traumatized. And the owner isn't having any further problems with the pig and the dog or whatnot.


A training exercise should never be set up for a dog to fail. Obviously, yes, the idea is exposure, correction, and _learning of new behaviors_. You left out the most important part. Also, you can do all of those things on a leash. You should do it on a leash. Not only is it a safety net, but it's easier for the dog. You can do it with your bait (let's be honest, that's what they were) behind a fence to get a better sense of where the dog is. It isn't wise to try to run before you can crawl. This is the same dog, an animal who has had aggression issues since 9 weeks of age (according to the owner). Take a look at that clip. Who thought letting him loose was a good idea... really? Would you let your pet be around that dog?

The pig was attacked twice. The first time was while it's leg was being held up by a human. When they finally managed to catch the dog, CM let him go after giving a correction. Not surprisingly, within seconds he attacked the pig again. That dog should have had a leash put on him right away, and been taken out of the area to calm down. At a bare minimum the dog should have been on leash. I have no personal knowledge of the pig, and cannot speak to its wellbeing. All I know is that I, personally, would not be okay.

I don't think anyone is saying that this incident was intentional in the same way a person physically beating a dog would be. It looks more like neglect to me. Neglect is a form of abuse, in my opinion. Based on the way the California penal code is written, someone should be in trouble.


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## Megora

No. The idea was to set the dog up so he could be corrected. Something that probably was a long time coming for this dog.


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## Swampcollie

Cesar is not in trouble under the law. 

This is just a hatchet job set up by the radical animal rights crowd to garner attention and trash the mans reputation. 

What is at issue for these folks is "Using Animals for Mans purposes". These folks have a problem with that concept and are opposed to it. They oppose the use of animals by man for any purpose including but not limited to food, pets, laboratory test subjects, selective breeding candidates, performing service, etc..

In this case, CM was employing the pigs as Laboratory Test Subjects. This is not illegal nor is it abuse. (Animal Testing has long been a target of the radical animal rights people.) Had he released the dog to attack the pigs and made no attempt to stop the attack he might be cited for neglect or abuse however that is not what happened. 

The purpose of the test was to determine how the dog would behave "Off Lead" in the same area with the pigs after it had received training. For those that don't know, a dog will behave differently "On Lead" verses "Off Lead" so keeping the dog on a leash would have defeated the purpose of the test. When the dog reacted and went after the pigs, the staff and crew DID NOT ignor the situation and allow the dog to continue at will. They in fact did all they could to regain control of the dog as quickly as possible and render aid to the pigs. CM and his staff did everything they were required to do under the law. There was no neglect or abuse by CM or his staff.

The real issue that has the animal rights folks up in arms is should the "use of animals for mans purposes" be allowed. CM is just the latest battle in their long running war to end mans use of animals.


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## mm2k14

Megora said:


> No. The idea was to set the dog up so he could be corrected. Something that probably was a long time coming for this dog.


If all canine behavior problems could be solved by a human simply saying, "no," there would be no need for dog trainers. That's kind of ridiculous. 

We're going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Jud

Swampcollie said:


> Cesar is not in trouble under the law.
> 
> This is just a hatchet job set up by the radical animal rights crowd to garner attention and trash the mans reputation.
> 
> What is at issue for these folks is "Using Animals for Mans purposes". These folks have a problem with that concept and are opposed to it. They oppose the use of animals by man for any purpose including but not limited to food, pets, laboratory test subjects, selective breeding candidates, performing service, etc..
> 
> In this case, CM was employing the pigs as Laboratory Test Subjects. This is not illegal nor is it abuse. (Animal Testing has long been a target of the radical animal rights people.) Had he released the dog to attack the pigs and made no attempt to stop the attack he might be cited for neglect or abuse however that is not what happened.
> 
> The purpose of the test was to determine how the dog would behave "Off Lead" in the same area with the pigs after it had received training. For those that don't know, a dog will behave differently "On Lead" verses "Off Lead" so keeping the dog on a leash would have defeated the purpose of the test. When the dog reacted and went after the pigs, the staff and crew DID NOT ignor the situation and allow the dog to continue at will. They in fact did all they could to regain control of the dog as quickly as possible and render aid to the pigs. CM and his staff did everything they were required to do under the law. There was no neglect or abuse by CM or his staff.
> 
> The real issue that has the animal rights folks up in arms is should the "use of animals for mans purposes" be allowed. CM is just the latest battle in their long running war to end mans use of animals.


That doesn't make him the 'be all' as a Trainer. As I've said...I find his methods
to be passive-aggressive and I read in the NY Times where he is being sued by some owners who were far from happy with the results after paying big bucks. I never cottoned to him.


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## Swampcollie

Jud said:


> That doesn't make him the 'be all' as a Trainer. As I've said...I find his methods
> to be passive-aggressive and I read in the NY Times where he is being sued by some owners who were far from happy with the results after paying big bucks. I never cottoned to him.


I agree, he isn't on my favorites list for trainers. However, that doesn't make him a criminal either.


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## OutWest

Wenderwoman said:


> I've never really seen anything that made it seem like he abused animals. This just seems like poor judgment so I would need to see more instances before I really said he did to intentionally abuse those poor pigs. Which is really what it means to abuse an animal... to intentionally put them in a dog fighting ring, intentionally put them on a lead and leave them to freeze outside, intentionally starve them to death... none of those seem to be how Cesar Milan treats animals. I don't think he intentionally put that dog in there with the pig so that it could attack it.
> 
> On the other hand, I can't say I learned a whole lot from his training techniques. I recommend people actually take their dog to training classes and not watch shows about training.
> 
> I did alright training my first dog without assistance but I ignored a lot of things CM said about dominating your dog or things I've read about from other trainers simply because I never wanted my dog to be afraid of me. So, I never would yell, hit, shock or use any device that caused them pain. BUT, none of my dogs have ever been dangerous. If they were dangerous, I would probably take them to a shelter because I would never be able to handle them. I'm not sure many people would do what CM tries to do. I think it was just poor judgment. I'm sure he's not happy about what happened, both for the pigs sake and the dog too. I've watched the video and the dog wasn't in berserk mode or anything. I think he just made a poor judgment.
> 
> I don't know, I think it's just a tough situation. He was a guy trying to save these dogs that most people would get rid of or decide should be euthanized. He got a lot of people to think differently about "damaged" or difficult dogs. If he gets ruined, these dogs will lose that momentum and rather than wanting to deal with them and risk getting arrested, they'll just be dumped at a shelter or killed.
> 
> I'm not sure where I stand, this is just some of my thoughts on it.


CM is not the only person salvaging damaged dogs--I've seen other trainers doing the same on TV. 

And what he did by releasing the dog was to ENDANGER the pig. There are very good ways to desensitize a dog from a stimulus but CM didn't do any of them. They are simple and practical, such as keeping the fence between the dogs and the pigs and giving out treats when dog ignores them. Then repeating inside the fence, with leash on. And then after a lot of practice, allowing the dog off leash while continuing to train. Although with a dog that has killed two pigs, I'd vote for it never being loose around them again. What saddened me about the segment was that CM undoubtedly knew what to do and how to do it but didn't. That says to me he is pandering and creating drama for the entertainment value. 

I'm not sure this adds up to animal cruelty--that is for the law to decide. But to me it's awfully close to the line.


----------



## OutWest

Swampcollie said:


> Cesar is not in trouble under the law.
> 
> This is just a hatchet job set up by the radical animal rights crowd to garner attention and trash the mans reputation.
> 
> What is at issue for these folks is "Using Animals for Mans purposes". These folks have a problem with that concept and are opposed to it. They oppose the use of animals by man for any purpose including but not limited to food, pets, laboratory test subjects, selective breeding candidates, performing service, etc..
> 
> In this case, CM was employing the pigs as Laboratory Test Subjects. This is not illegal nor is it abuse. (Animal Testing has long been a target of the radical animal rights people.) Had he released the dog to attack the pigs and made no attempt to stop the attack he might be cited for neglect or abuse however that is not what happened.
> 
> The purpose of the test was to determine how the dog would behave "Off Lead" in the same area with the pigs after it had received training. For those that don't know, a dog will behave differently "On Lead" verses "Off Lead" so keeping the dog on a leash would have defeated the purpose of the test. When the dog reacted and went after the pigs, the staff and crew DID NOT ignor the situation and allow the dog to continue at will. They in fact did all they could to regain control of the dog as quickly as possible and render aid to the pigs. CM and his staff did everything they were required to do under the law. There was no neglect or abuse by CM or his staff.
> 
> The real issue that has the animal rights folks up in arms is should the "use of animals for mans purposes" be allowed. CM is just the latest battle in their long running war to end mans use of animals.


I disagree that this is all about radical animal-rightists. I've seen plenty written about him by very credible and educated dog trainers, behaviorists, and vets. There certainly is a radical movement that would like to eliminate all human-pet relationships as well as all meat eating, animal farming, etc. and they may well be part of the anti-CM crowd. But that crowd includes plenty of knowledgable "normal" folks too. And I think the "normal" crowd does not wish him ill (I know I don't) but does wish he'd stop doing things on TV that are questionable and are emulated by people all over the country.


----------



## Megora

mm2k14 said:


> If all canine behavior problems could be solved by a human simply saying, "no," there would be no need for dog trainers. That's kind of ridiculous.


I don't understand your statement in the context of what I said. I want to be nice, but I don't think you know what you are talking about. And I'm wondering if you actually have a dog or experience handling an aggressive dog (I have by the way - our first dog who taught us a ton in his short life). 

If all problems could simply be solved by avoidance and medication - there would be no need for dog trainers. Because people would never have a problem since their dogs are always muzzled and bound up with leashes or crated or drugged out.

There is a progression in dog training towards an end where if dogs turn out "wrong" when trained with positive reinforcement only... then the dogs are either handled with the above options or thrown away with the owners starting again with a new puppy.

I know of dogs that have been ruined by their inexperienced owners listening to people who put agendas ahead of acknowledging what is best for the dog. I'd like to feel bad for the owners, but many of them get locked up in such a state that they refuse to take responsibility for their mistakes or blame those people who gave them all the wrong advice.


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## LittleRedDawg

I don't know enough about CM to comment.

I do know: 
1) The AR crowd will have us all separated and torn apart piece by piece if we don't stand as a united responsible dog owning, dog training community, regardless of training methods. Just because you don't like mine or I don't like yours doesn't mean we must be at odds - we're both taking on the challenge of training dogs, and we OWN them! something the AR crowd is strongly against.
2) I find it disturbing the number of people who are willing to jump on the mob's bandwagon without any knowledge of the topic.
3) As it relates to training: to get to an advanced level of consistent performance, a dog does have to understand that some things are not right - in order to consistently do what is right. How strongly this has to be communicated is very dependent on the dog - it might be anything from an soft verbal "what is this??" to whatever CM uses.


----------



## Ljilly28

Changed my mind about commenting


----------



## mm2k14

Megora said:


> I don't understand your statement in the context of what I said.


"Thinking outside the box here - the whole point in exposing the dog to the pigs was to set him up so he could be *corrected*." 

I was referring to being corrected. It's one thing to tell the dog not to do something; anyone can do that. A trainer should also know how to correct the behavior... which one most effectively and most easily does by _teaching_ them the proper thing to do.



Megora said:


> I want to be nice, but I don't think you know what you are talking about. And I'm wondering if you actually have a dog or experience handling an aggressive dog (I have by the way - our first dog who taught us a ton in his short life).


It's slightly unclear to me as to why it would be okay to be rude even if I were misinformed. 

But anyway, yes, I actually do have experience with aggressive dogs. I've spent hours working on dog aggression, and leash reactivity. It would be pretty stupid to shoot my mouth off about something I know nothing about.  If it were something I didn't have direct experience with, I would acknowledge that. If you want to look through my other posts, you will see that.



Megora said:


> If all problems could simply be solved by avoidance and medication - there would be no need for dog trainers. Because people would never have a problem since their dogs are always muzzled and bound up with leashes or crated or drugged out.


No one is saying anything about avoidance or medication. 

If there's a problem area you know about, the best thing to do is work on it in increments, at the dog's pace. Especially if it involved another live creature, you can be absolutely sure that I would need to feel very comfortable with the dog's progress before making the training set-up harder, and putting that other creature at risk. That doesn't mean you avoid the situation, though. It means you adapt, like in the case of the dog in question, leaving him on a leash around your pet pigs until you're 100% sure he isn't going to attack. 



Megora said:


> There is a progression in dog training towards an end where if dogs turn out "wrong" when trained with positive reinforcement only... then the dogs are either handled with the above options or thrown away with the owners starting again with a new puppy.


I disagree-- hire a better trainer. Hire an actual behaviorist with credentials and a proven track record to back it up. Hire a trainer who is respected by his/her peers. 

Dog training has come so far in the recent years. And by the way, there was no indication that the owner contacted any other trainer about that dog. 



Megora said:


> I know of dogs that have been ruined by their inexperienced owners listening to people who put agendas ahead of acknowledging what is best for the dog.


I know of dogs who have been ruined by harsh, unproven "training." It may look like it works to start off with, but eventually the dog will go right back to what they were doing before anyway. 

Well, I guess we're at a stalemate again. This is not going anywhere.

---

As much fun as this thread has been, I'm going to steer clear. This is one of those topics I should have known not to get involved in. Well, I did, but I thought I would try anyway. 

Best wishes to everyone. I am sure we'll all find out what happens.


----------



## Megora

ME said:


> Thinking outside the box here - the whole point in exposing the dog to the pigs was to set him up so he could be corrected."





mm2k14 said:


> If all canine behavior problems could be solved by a human simply saying, "no," there would be no need for dog trainers. That's kind of ridiculous.





mm2k14 said:


> I was referring to being corrected. It's one thing to tell the dog not to do something; anyone can do that. A trainer should also know how to correct the behavior... which one most effectively and most easily does by teaching them the proper thing to do.


^^^ The reason why I was scratching my head trying to understand what you were trying to say is the situation was not just the owner going "no, don't do that honey", but it involved setting the dog up and correcting the dog when he exhibited the bad behavior. 

I don't spend my time watching TV, I'm not a fan of watching CM, and did not see the episode in question. But, 

1. I don't know how long it took them to film the episode. I'm sure it wasn't just one training session.

2. Correcting the dog when he presented the bad behavior was reinforced by putting the dog in a situation where he exhibited good behaviors which the trainer (and owner) wanted reinforced. 

The proper thing to do in this case was not attacking the pigs. 

Me personally - I don't want people turning their aggressive dogs loose in dog parks or other places when they know the dog is going to be a heat seeking missle as far as clocking out other dogs. 

That is a management issue.

But if you have multiple dogs in a household and one of the dogs is prone to aggression towards one of the other dogs. Rather than rehoming the aggressive dog - I would train it. I'm a nice person, but I believe that dogs need to be kept under control and if they exhibit behaviors that are dangerous or not what I want - I will swoop in and correct to the level that my dog knows that I mean business when I tell him to "knock it off". 

Words are meaningless without the correction behind it. 

Just like a correction doesn't have enough meaning unless you can reinforce good stuff when the dog is behaving himself in the same situation.

I used to train with somebody who worked with dogs very similar to the kind that CM works with. I was around her for about 7-8 years. Except of course (unlike CM), she had various degrees as far as dog behavior goes in addition to her being a very experienced dog trainer handling dogs who could be dangerous in certain situations (not goldens). 

In the cases like dog aggression - this trainer would use her own dogs (golden retrievers) to set up the aggressive dog - to put him in the situation where he could be corrected. And she made it big enough that the dog had the information to back off when told by the owner. The woman was very successful in turning out dogs who the owners could live with and handle. 

That's completely separate from certain cases where I've seen some desperate dog owners getting the run around from behaviorist to behaviorist and gradually giving up their "dreams" with their dogs one by one as the dogs instead became progressively worse. Sometimes it had to do with the behaviorists not having a wide enough tool chest or not having the guts to straight up tell the owners what they were doing wrong and had to stop in order for the other stuff to start working. 

To a milder extent btw, the people I train with right now use their dogs as distractions to provoke the dogs to do stuff they shouldn't in class when we can actually DO SOMETHING about it. In trials there's very little ability to anything about fixing a problem if you have a dog who jumps up to visit other dogs in the stay line or jumps the ring gating to chase the dogs in the next ring or stuff like that.

I could go on and on, but I'll let it be.


----------



## Tennyson

What if instead of using the pig CM used a submissive larger breed dog. Use the same parameters that CM was training a dog that was aggressive to larger submissive dogs. Something tells me that the outcry would be more then it is.
CM really had no reason to release that dog the 2nd time. That dog was in his rage, foaming mouth zone. Should have been on a leash initially.


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## Ljilly28

Some of the best credentialed, most scholarly and most hands- on experienced dog experts in the country decry CM's methods . In New England, Tufts University vet school has a whole behavior wing headed up by Dr. Nick Dodman. 

"Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."

"Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior, Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine


----------



## Wenderwoman

Jud said:


> I am the anti-Cesar. It is time for me to write a book as I have had 5 amazing dogs and two goldens..one passed and one puppy who worships me for the right reasons.. because of the love I give her and the security....not Cesar's 'chinese water-torture ways'


Have you had rescue dogs? I'm not looking to start a big fight with you but I can say that my rescue dogs were more challenging than those raised from being a puppy. I also thing breed has a big influence on the dogs behavior.

My Golden in particular was super easy to train because she is really sensitive. She HATES feeling like she hurt me or has upset me in any way. I've had her since she was a puppy and she is a great dog. 

My Miniature Pinscher is somewhat the same except that he can go into bat-crap crazy mode and totally block out anything but his little barking frenzy and there is no way to get through to him. He was a rescue. It took almost a year for him to even relax around us. We would never use a shock collar but we did resort to a spray called "Stop That" to get him to leave our neighbor alone. He would even lunge and bite my neighbor.

My puppy is also a rescue. They found her at 8 weeks, abandoned and on the streets with her sister. She was pretty food aggressive. She is a lab mix and very confident. She has learned bite inhibition but she will snap at my face and will bite harder than any of my other dogs, soft whimpering never phased her. She's pretty willful. She is highly treat motivated but it isn't controlling her "playful" snapping at faces or extreme mouthiness. She is slightly reactive yet. At 7 months, I have to accept that my positive only method has to be a bit more assertive. She also potties on the floor and eats poo. She was a rescue. She learned at a very early age to have a different mindset and approach.

That's why I ask if you've worked with rescues. They don't necessarily respond to positive only. I'm not saying you ever hit them but I will need to use punishment type discipline like crating, leashing, or ignoring with her.

p.s. I'm also not saying I'm pro CM. I've watched some of his shows but never read a book by him. All I've got from him is that you should exercise them enough and be patient yet assertive.


----------



## Wenderwoman

OutWest said:


> CM is not the only person salvaging damaged dogs--I've seen other trainers doing the same on TV.
> 
> And what he did by releasing the dog was to ENDANGER the pig. There are very good ways to desensitize a dog from a stimulus but CM didn't do any of them. They are simple and practical, such as keeping the fence between the dogs and the pigs and giving out treats when dog ignores them. Then repeating inside the fence, with leash on. And then after a lot of practice, allowing the dog off leash while continuing to train. Although with a dog that has killed two pigs, I'd vote for it never being loose around them again. What saddened me about the segment was that CM undoubtedly knew what to do and how to do it but didn't. That says to me he is pandering and creating drama for the entertainment value.
> 
> I'm not sure this adds up to animal cruelty--that is for the law to decide. But to me it's awfully close to the line.


I'm not arguing that it was a bad decision. I just don't think it proves animal cruelty either. I think the whole endangering the pig thing is being a bit dramatic. Sorry. He believed in the dog and was sadly mistaken. I think because I have two rescues that I have worked with a lot and have become great dogs and get better all the time, I understand what he was doing but agree that it might have been too early. That dog could absolutely be around pigs again. Having trained my rescue puppy who was seriously food aggressive and now has no problem, I know that it can happen. But, it happens at a much slower pace than the dogs I've raised since puppies.

I think that is where I am reacting from. Knowing that some dogs that appear to be damaged can be good dogs.

Frankly, I'm more sad about this story than anything else, not angry or platforming. Sad for the pig and sad for the dog. And, really sad for all the "difficult" dogs that will get a bad reputation from this whole thing as people say he was just a "bad" dog that shouldn't have been given a chance.


----------



## Swampcollie

Wenderwoman said:


> Have you had rescue dogs? I'm not looking to start a big fight with you but I can say that my rescue dogs were more challenging than those raised from being a puppy. I also thing breed has a big influence on the dogs behavior.
> 
> My Golden in particular was super easy to train because she is really sensitive. She HATES feeling like she hurt me or has upset me in any way. I've had her since she was a puppy and she is a great dog.
> 
> My Miniature Pinscher is somewhat the same except that he can go into bat-crap crazy mode and totally block out anything but his little barking frenzy and there is no way to get through to him. He was a rescue. It took almost a year for him to even relax around us. We would never use a shock collar but we did resort to a spray called "Stop That" to get him to leave our neighbor alone. He would even lunge and bite my neighbor.
> 
> My puppy is also a rescue. They found her at 8 weeks, abandoned and on the streets with her sister. She was pretty food aggressive. She is a lab mix and very confident. She has learned bite inhibition but she will snap at my face and will bite harder than any of my other dogs, soft whimpering never phased her. She's pretty willful. She is highly treat motivated but it isn't controlling her "playful" snapping at faces or extreme mouthiness. She is slightly reactive yet. At 7 months, I have to accept that my positive only method has to be a bit more assertive. She also potties on the floor and eats poo. She was a rescue. She learned at a very early age to have a different mindset and approach.
> 
> That's why I ask if you've worked with rescues. They don't necessarily respond to positive only. I'm not saying you ever hit them but I will need to use punishment type discipline like crating, leashing, or ignoring with her.



As you've learned you have to adapt your teaching/training approach to the dog at the end of your leash at the time. It's one thing to teach a pup that has been carefully raised and socialized so that it never had the opportunity to establish undesired behaviors or allow them to become habit.

It's a whole different thing to start teaching/training a 7 month old pup that has received no training or socialization, and has been allowed to develop numerous undesired behaviors. Worse still those undesired behaviors have been allowed to become habit.


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## solinvictus

Whether CM put the pig at risk for the drama of his tv show or because they didn't think through what could really happen the pig got hurt.

This is California's law

California Penal Code §597
(a) Except as provided in subdivision (c) of this section or Section 599c, every person who maliciously and intentionally maims, mutilates, tortures, or wounds a living animal, or maliciously and intentionally kills an animal, is guilty of a crime punishable pursuant to subdivision (d).
(b) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (a) or (c), every person who overdrives, overloads, drives when overloaded, overworks, tortures, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance, drink, or shelter, cruelly beats, mutilates, or cruelly kills any animal, or causes or procures any animal to be so overdriven, overloaded, driven when overloaded, overworked, tortured, tormented, deprived of necessary sustenance, drink, shelter, or to be cruelly beaten, mutilated, or cruelly killed; and whoever, having the charge or custody of any animal, either as owner or otherwise, subjects any animal to needless suffering, or inflicts unnecessary cruelty upon the animal, or in any manner abuses any animal, or fails to provide the animal with proper food, drink, or shelter or protection from the weather, or who drives, rides, or otherwise uses the animal when unfit for labor, is, for each offense, guilty of a crime punishable pursuant to subdivision


"as owner or otherwise, subjects any animal to needless suffering,"

CM is considered a professional trainer and all safety concerns should be addressed prior to training. This puts him to a higher standard than the common pet owner.

The pig was harmed.

CM deliberately took the leash off of a dog that he knows already killed two pigs and had other aggression issues.

It is now up to the humane officers and then the prosecutor to look at the information and make a decision on what to do. Whether they decide to go forward or not can be for many different reasons. Many times the prosecutor has to weigh how much money the case will cost to pursue, if there really is enough evidence, and so many other things I can not think of. 

IMO, The safety of all needs to be first. Whether you use reward based, aversive training or both (balanced) CM was reckless in not providing safety for all concerned.

From reading the forum for so long again my opinion but many of those that seem to be using balanced training understand dogs and would never put a dog into the position CM did until they thought it was safe for all the animals.


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## Megora

The obvious thing to add btw... w/regards to the pig (who wasn't tortured and did not have his ear torn off as many people were saying)... and I suspect Swampy can probably add a word or two about this...

People who are upset about a pig being bit by a dog who is being trained... and they want to have somebody arrested for animal abuse.

I'm friends with people who do herding with their dogs. Sometimes the sheep, goats, reindeer, whatever - they do get bit by an overly hyped up dog in training. I asked one person in particular and she said it's happened. It's nothing really too bad - a bite is not the same as a mauling. Though even there, I'm going to bet that sometimes happens.

With hunting and training a hunting dog... I'm a bird person so this is hard for me, but I know people who were with young dogs in training with live birds who have their wings clipped. I'm sure birds do get shredded in training... 

You have people who are very sensitive and they humanize a lot of these animals or they want to eliminate the original purpose of these animals. These people are very active as far as going after these sports in the name of animal abuse.

Actually I have heard various things about Barn Hunt causing a major uproar from people screaming animal abuse even when they find out that the rats are in a cage and the dogs are not grabbing them... 

Whether it's that or people using dogs as "set ups" while handling dog aggressive dogs... 

There's a lot of stuff which goes into a really bigger world than training dogs for CGC tests. Which I think a lot of people focus and feel is "acceptable" for dog training meaning that they don't think that CGC training is as problematic as competing with dogs... and there's people who compare training and working with dogs as a form of slavery. Actually, I read a hideous book this past month where the writer decided to portray a future where human beings are owned as pets and so on... there was an obvious statement in the book which is about the same as what you hear from other people who are quite a bit crazy.

But bottom line is if you open that door to allowing people to get arrested and thrown in jail for some things, particularly manipulating a law that was written to stop animal abuse (particularly dog fighting).. you are giving people a tool to go after other people who use other animals while training working dogs, I think?


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## Swampcollie

I don't believe that animal testing has been banned in California. Animals involved in research (test subjects) are subjected to many physical and mental trials everyday. The animal rights folks want the research scientists, vet techs, and animal care staff involved charged with cruelty and abuse. They never have been and aren't going to be anytime soon. The statutes related to laboratory test subjects differ from those related to pet ownership or those related to care of livestock.


This thread isn't about whether or not you think CM is a good trainer or not, it's about whether he broke the law and will be arrested and charged with animal cruelty. 

Using animals for testing purposes is not against the law in the state of CA. The people that started this nonsense knew this. They know that CM will not be arrested and thrown in jail. 
They are manipulating peoples' emotions trying to destroy the man in a court of political correctness. If they're successful, they can go back to the state legislature and again attempt to force an end to "Use of animals for mans purposes."


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## T&T

A training session gone wrong …. 

Meanwhile we torture/kill 2 BILLION pigs per year worldwide (for heart attack inducing bacon) & no one is talking about it.


It seems only dogs & cats matter (SPECIESISM)… ( but we still kill 4 million of them a year in USA)

As for the rest of the species … we exploit them, rape them, milk them to death, slaughter them, butcher them. eat them, work them, hunt them, wear them, enslave them, cage them, ride them, experiment on them, and it’s all ok.

We have become so disconnected. 
Thank goodness for animal rights activists


----------



## StormCatcherGoldens

Ljilly28 said:


> I am really torn about this. I feel as though CM both prospered and was chewed up and spit out by the America Dream and reality TV. At his core he used to love dogs and be a virtuoso natural with them. The problem comes with trying to teach Joe Public to use "methods" that are largely intuitive to him as an individual. I read his take on his own suicide attempt which might have been about 2010, and I felt sorry then that it had all gotten too big to be sustained. The last episode of C 911 he could barely talk- his voice was spent, and he was kind of sleepwalking through his lexicon of stale phrases and advice. He tried to pander to the science/positve trainers and now he backlashed to some really heavy-handed training. I think it was all over with the Holly the lab bite. I blame Nat Geo for setting him up with airing the pig episode as results are predictable. It isn't even bleeding heart for the pig but just he looks like a hack trainer letting thing spiral out of control while chasing after the dog the way people do at the dog park when fido won't come. It was pretty bad bite to the big, and it had to have been edited to make him look like he didn't care, and then it cuts to the llama we all love. I am no fan of CM as a do trainer, but I do think he is getting sold down the river now by reality tv.


I have to agree with you. I've read his books and watched his shows and I believe he truly cares about dogs, but the reality TV thing is what is hurting so many people. Its all about shock and upset and they do that because they know they'll get ratings. I'm sure Cesar doesn't want to be on TV running around like a lunatic trying to control a dog like that. Poor guy. I feel bad for him, the pigs, the dog, everyone in the situation. 

My other issue is with the lady insisting that she has a pig around that dog. I think sometimes there are going to be triggers for certain dogs, and why on earth she is insisting that her dog needs to be around pigs I'll never know. Of course you don't want a badly behaved dog but really if my dogs hated cats I'd just never get a cat. Its just not a situation that needs to happen. Why torture both animals like that? Its obviously stressful for them. Ok, there...haha. I'm done ranting.


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## Megora

T&T said:


> A training session gone wrong ….
> 
> Meanwhile we torture/kill 2 BILLION pigs per year worldwide (for heart attack inducing bacon) & no one is talking about it.
> 
> 
> It seems only dogs & cats matter (SPECIESISM)… ( but we still kill 4 million of them a year in USA)
> 
> As for the rest of the species … we exploit them, rape them, milk them to death, slaughter them, butcher them. eat them, work them, hunt them, wear them, enslave them, cage them, ride them, experiment on them, and it’s all ok.
> 
> We have become so disconnected.
> Thank goodness for animal rights activists


^ And there you go, right on time.

I'm not surprised when some people say stuff. I'm always surprised when I see who's supporting what they just said. 

Interesting.


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## CAROLINA MOM

The Forum Members are from different parts of the world-US, Canada, Europe, Australia and a few other countries. We all have different backgrounds, it's only natural that we all have different viewpoints and opinions about any given subject. 

Please be respectful of each other's viewpoints and opinions whether you agree or disagree with them and try to stay on track of the original topic and not take this thread into a different direction.


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## Charliethree

Perhaps the following article may shed some light?

https://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/why-the-latest-cesar-milan-incident-isnt-just-about-a-pig/


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## Ljilly28

Charliethree said:


> Perhaps the following article may shed some light?
> 
> https://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2016/03/14/why-the-latest-cesar-milan-incident-isnt-just-about-a-pig/


Thanks for the article. I like this especially:


> His modus operandi is almost always the same: get the aggressive dog riled up to the point that he will demonstrate the aggressive behavior; punish the dog to the point that he shuts down and does not dare do it again; declare the dog rehabilitated. It certainly makes for good drama on television. But should our concern be what’s best for the animal, or for the viewing audience? Having worked with what Cesar terms “red zone dogs”—dogs with severe aggression towards dogs and/or people—for many years, I can tell you that rehabilitation does not require violence.


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## Wenderwoman

> His modus operandi is almost always the same: get the aggressive dog riled up to the point that he will demonstrate the aggressive behavior; punish the dog to the point that he shuts down and does not dare do it again; declare the dog rehabilitated. It certainly makes for good drama on television. But should our concern be what’s best for the animal, or for the viewing audience? Having worked with what Cesar terms “red zone dogs”—dogs with severe aggression towards dogs and/or people—for many years, I can tell you that rehabilitation does not require violence.


I have a min pin that would go ballistic every time he saw my neighbor. He would even bite him. When we took him to Petsmart, he was a maniac barking at every dog he saw. We tried everything. We can squirt him all day long once he's in bat crap crazy mode, nothing gets through.

But, we wanted to train him. We bought this product called "Stop That" and it makes a hissing noise and sprays them with some scent. We went to Petsmart. When he went into bat crap crazy mode, we sprayed him. He stopped. We sprayed him exactly 4 times.

The last time we sprayed him was when we entered class. He started up at another dog - barking like mad, lunging, growling and teeth baring - like he was ready to kill that dog. I sprayed him. He stopped.

By the end of class, they were playing and having fun. 

We haven't had to spray him since. Now, he wags his tail and happily greets other dogs. 

I wasn't quite ready to believe in his transformation until the trainer told me to let him meet other dogs and that his body language was friendly.

I really don't know enough about CM's training techniques to say that he's good or bad but in my experience, this absolutely worked.


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## GoldenFocus

^^ Does this spray work on Humans....Family members?


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## Megora

I know exactly one person who apparently called Caesar Millan to have him solve a problem with a GSD who was developing aggression issues. The dog was very protective of her and the kids - and she couldn't even take him to the vet without being afraid that he would attack people who approached her. I vaguely remember her saying CM recommended both changes in management (exercise, how she walked him into places and allowed people to approach him, stuff like that) and then he recommended strong leadership. 

She ended up surrendering the dog because she had a lot of small kids and she herself was a petite woman. He was too much dog for her and I guess put it plainly the "strong leadership" part wasn't possible. 

She ended up getting an English Creme golden retriever and that's about the last time I talked dogs with her (LOL)....  

But the advice he offered for managing the dog was sound enough to me... 

I don't watch any dog training shows (or any dog shows) on TV.... let alone CM. So have no idea how he handles the same cases on TV week to week.... 

Me personally as far as corrections go... strong leadership and asserting yourself as the alpha _can _have the desired effect when you have dogs who are in danger of being put down. But it depends on you going about it intelligently and with the guidance of a good training (in person somebody working closely with you and telling you what your dog's , not going off an online class, TV trainer, or book)

I said elsewhere, but my baby sister has scars on her back, stomach, and one leg because of our #2 dog going after her when she was very little (4-6). That was his third bite. And happened literally the same evening that another sister went to the ER to get stitches put in on her arm where he ripped into her. 

That was in addition to our #1 dog basically controlling the household and asserting his authority on us. I mean it, he would be on the couch in our living room and if we went up to get him off, he would do the hunched shoulders, stare, and snarl - and snap if we went any further. 

Solving their problems DID involve exerting authority and following through with corrections. In addition to intelligent management and recognizing limits. 

#1 dog stopped the snarling and snapping and posturing. When told to get off the couch or so on, he would obey - rumbling to himself the whole way. This dog was a beloved pet his whole life. He was more vocal than the ones we had after him. That means "twittering" and singing when we came home, howling when we played music... and overall even the rumbling was more of a vocalization as opposed to the very early signs of definite aggression. 

#2 dog became as good as gold and better. Never so much as growled ever again in his life. Any hint of a growl or nose wrinkle was immediately stopped just from a look from my sister. This was a dog who slept with my sister most of his life... he had a clownish personality, was smarter than most of us, and so on... but he never bit ever again. This is the dog who in his old age was happiest with my niece hugging him and sleeping with her head on him. 

Neither dog was neutered. Neither dog had to be muzzled or otherwise kept tightly managed. 

These things can work - even with the trainers being kids (my parents wanted nothing to do with taking care of or working with the dogs). But you need to be working with a good trainer in person who is correcting YOU when you are wrong. 

The stuff on TV, books, online, etc... should not be intended as a primary training reference for your average person - because that's assuming that the average person knows how to read their dog and sort out what is causing behaviors.


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## Wenderwoman

Megora said:


> The stuff on TV, books, online, etc... should not be intended as a primary training reference for your average person - because that's assuming that the average person knows how to read their dog and sort out what is causing behaviors.


I totally agree. That article against CM was completely editorial. It was in no way educational, in my opinion. Any article that only gives one opinion (and insistently at that) is not really something to consider. There are always two sides to every story. No one deserves to be defined by their faults which is what is happening to CM. If anyone ever comes out with a thoughtfully written and researched article on CM's success and failure rates, then I'll take it to heart but this witch hunt is really unhelpful.

In regards to my dog there are some specific attributes that should be considered. His aggression was completely inconsistent. He only went bonkers over my neighbor and was the sweetest dog with anyone else, including babies and my cats. Also, we have successfully introduced him to other dogs and he would play with them. So, obviously, it was not just aggressive behavior, there was clearly something going wrong with his mental process that it was okay to be friendly sometimes and then okay to go berserko in others.

I'm just thankful we found something. He's seems so much less stressed now and is enjoying a lot more play time and making lots of friends now.


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## GoldenCamper

GoldenFocus said:


> ^^ Does this spray work on Humans....Family members?


I needed a laugh today thanks. Can't vouch for the "stop it" product mentioned that makes a hissing noise with a scent. 

Skunks do a great job of that though


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## CAROLINA MOM

*Update*

No charges for 'dog whisperer' Cesar Millan after animal cruelty investigation


No charges for &apos;dog whisperer&apos; Cesar Millan after animal cruelty investigation - LA Times


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## Swampcollie

CAROLINA MOM said:


> No charges for 'dog whisperer' Cesar Millan after animal cruelty investigation
> 
> 
> No charges for &apos;dog whisperer&apos; Cesar Millan after animal cruelty investigation - LA Times



No big surprise. He didn't break the law.

The losers are the taxpayers in CA who had to pay for the investigation.


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## Ljilly28

[quotePunishment-based training methods may be advocated by those without an appreciation of the current status of science in dog training. Although such methods can be effective in the short term, science tells us they are likely to exacerbate an animal’s fear and actually increase aggression in the long run. ][/quote]http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/Cesar_Millan_Response_4-2016.pdf

Due diligence every pet owner in selecting a trainer. . . Nothing takes the place of researching the best, most up-to-date practice, be that in an oncologist or a dog trainer.


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## Megora

Ljilly28 said:


> Due diligence every pet owner in selecting a trainer. . . Nothing takes the place of researching the best, most up-to-date practice, be that in an oncologist or a dog trainer.


Jill - knowing an obedience instructor has all the titles for the levels of obedience they teach + there is the ability to go online and see that they are active and they get top results with their _current _dogs. These things to me are very important.

Because if people are getting out in the obedience ring and are members of clubs, etc... they are going to be balanced and very good at problem solving stuff.

I do get there will be people making "I ate a lemon" faces and saying they don't want to compete or do anything with their dogs, but to me it's a waste that so many pet owners get dumbed down training advice or are directed to train with people who primarily are in the business to brainwash new owners to their way of thinking. And a lot of the times, these people generally do not enjoy obedience training. A lot of them will mumble stuff about there being no reward in obedience competition for dogs. And so on. 

A good chunk of pet owners will never get past the whole concept of dog shows being sort of like strutting around Home Depot or whatnot to show off their dogs. I still take the stance that if you want to show off your dog and the training you have put into your dog...and if you want your dog to always be remembered somewhere... you have to compete and show. There's no real worthy recognition of dogs who walk around Home Depot or whatnot every weekend.  

But there are a lot of people who are talented and own really nice dogs who could become the next big names in the obedience world given time - if they were introduced to the sport by people who love the sport. 

People who dislike a sport are not going to inspire love for that sport. So when you get somebody who has a perpetual sour expression when it comes to actually competing with dogs - they are worthless when it comes to actually furthering people past a mere 5-6 weeks of obedience classes. They are worthless when it comes to engaging the minds and talents of people who absolutely going to be the next big thing. 

You have people like Ceasar Millian and others get big press because more and more people get nothing out of attending obedience classes with their dogs. This is a failure on the part of the on the ground trainers - if they do not inspire.

*** Which btw, the CM thing... it's gratifying that justice isn't a blind man being led around by the raving mob... at not in this case.


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## Charliethree

[quotePunishment-based training methods may be advocated by those without an appreciation of the current status of science in dog training. Although such methods can be effective in the short term, science tells us they are likely to exacerbate an animal’s fear and actually increase aggression in the long run. ][/quote]http://avsabonline.org/uploads/posit...nse_4-2016.pdf

Due diligence every pet owner in selecting a trainer. . . Nothing takes the place of researching the best, most up-to-date practice, be that in an oncologist or a dog trainer. 

If I may add, have the courage to advocate for your dog, if what you are being told or shown doesn't feel right, doesn't fit with what you believe is how you want your dog to be treated or trained, trust your gut and have the courage to walk away... with your dog.


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## MoltenGirl

I've always believed that there is not ONE single or "right" method to train your dog. 

Every dog is an individual and each has its own personality. What works for one, may not work for another. 

I've always believed in using common sense, being consistent and persistent, remaining calm, setting limits, not using force or abusive methods, and adding love to all of the above, and it seems to work.


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## Alaska7133

MoltenGirl said:


> I've always believed in using common sense, being consistent and persistent, remaining calm, setting limits, not using force or abusive methods, and adding love to all of the above, and it seems to work.


So what do you do when your dog is young and doesn't sit when you say "sit"? Most people push their butt down. Is that not "force"? We all want to sugar coat what dog training is. But it boils down to convincing the dog to do what we want them to do. That is the basis of "force". Yah it's all good and say I'm an all positive trainer, but there is no such thing. If there was an "all positive" trainer, the dog would do whatever they want whenever they want. What one person's abuse is, may not be abuse to the next person. Using such blanket statements just simplifies dog training far more than it should be. As for "adding love", I think that's also unrealistic. It's not about love, it's about getting the behavior consistently that you need to have from the dog. When training dogs, if you add emotion to the session, that's when abuse can happen, when the trainer becomes angry and hurts the dog intentionally. So adding or not "adding love" shouldn't be part of the training. Having empathy and understanding why the dog is reacting a particular way is important, but that in itself is not "adding love". What happens if you don't love a dog you are working with? That's like asking a trainer in a classroom to love all dogs in the room. That's not realistic.


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## MoltenGirl

Alaska7133 said:


> So what do you do when your dog is young and doesn't sit when you say "sit"? Most people push their butt down. Is that not "force"? We all want to sugar coat what dog training is. But it boils down to convincing the dog to do what we want them to do. That is the basis of "force". Yah it's all good and say I'm an all positive trainer, but there is no such thing. If there was an "all positive" trainer, the dog would do whatever they want whenever they want. What one person's abuse is, may not be abuse to the next person. Using such blanket statements just simplifies dog training far more than it should be. As for "adding love", I think that's also unrealistic. It's not about love, it's about getting the behavior consistently that you need to have from the dog. When training dogs, if you add emotion to the session, that's when abuse can happen, when the trainer becomes angry and hurts the dog intentionally. So adding or not "adding love" shouldn't be part of the training. Having empathy and understanding why the dog is reacting a particular way is important, but that in itself is not "adding love". What happens if you don't love a dog you are working with? That's like asking a trainer in a classroom to love all dogs in the room. That's not realistic.


 First of all, I don't appreciate your tone. I've never claimed to be an expert- on the contrary. I have two dogs and one could be human because he acts and behaves so well that you would not know he was a dog. My Golden? He's a work in progress but at nine months, I'm not expecting miracles. I'm quite a realist when it comes to my expectations of what he can do to please me at this stage. 

I will respond by saying that I use a lot of visual cues, occasional treats, and hand commands to get my dog to do what I want them to in addition to asking them to do it or telling them. I have never used force or pushed my dogs butt down in order for him to sit. 

Dogs pick up on your vibe and can sense if you're hostile or upset with them or even frustrated for that matter, so I don't train if it looks pointless or the dog is not paying full attention. 

I love my dogs and what I meant by adding love into training, was treating them with respect and not coming across as hostile or upset because they will pick up on that and I don't want a fearful or aggressive animal. I want my dogs to trust me and so yes, love will always be part of training, living, and coexisting. It's a privileged relationship

And just an FYI, dogs learn from positive reinforcement and praise *NOT* punishment


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## Alaska7133

MoltenGirl said:


> And just an FYI, dogs learn from positive reinforcement and praise *NOT* punishment


 This is only your opinion. As a child when I got into trouble sometimes there were consequences. Same with dogs. If you are always looking for that moment of positive action in order to reward it, you could be waiting for awhile. On the other hand if you don't deal with bad behavior and correct it, then you could be adding to the problem. For example, I have an older golden that developed a nasty habit of lunging at other dogs on walks. This was a behavior that needed to be corrected. My method was to put him in a pinch collar and pop and release the collar, then put him in a sit stay whenever he started to get stiff legged towards another dog. I absolutely did not want to use anything positive in this regard. I did not want him to continue to think this was an ok behavior. Now look at other things you do with your dog. Do you punish them? Yes you do, every time they beg for food and you don't give it to them. Or not let them run outside when they want to. Or stop them from barking at the neighbors. Dogs will do what dogs do unless we mold their behavior. Waiting to reward that correct behavior and overlooking the bad behavior doesn't stop the bad behavior. It just confuses the dog.

All I'm trying to say is, it is very short sighted to think that we are able to keep all training positive and all training reward based. We all want to say we don't punish our dogs, but in reality we do. I'm not going to sugar coat it. I do correct my dogs. I do stop behaviors I don't think are appropriate. I do believe that there is even handedness when training dogs. I do think there is a time and place for treats in training. I also think we are the responsible ones on the other end of the leash and need to remember that.


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## GoldenFocus

I don't appreciate your tone either.


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## TrailDogs

Alaska, I agree with you and there is nothing offensive about your posts.
Here is a good article on balanced training. https://leerburg.com/allpositive.htm


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## Megora

> I love my dogs and what I meant by adding love into training, was treating them with respect and not coming across as hostile or upset because they will pick up on that and I don't want a fearful or aggressive animal. I want my dogs to trust me and so yes, love will always be part of training, living, and coexisting. It's a privileged relationship
> 
> And just an FYI, dogs learn from positive reinforcement and praise NOT punishment


I think maybe this is a separate conversation than Mr. Millian's witch hunt... 

It's very easy to demonize forms of training when you have somebody as vulnerable to honest criticism - like Mr. Millian. Not everyone appreciates his methods... or if they OK with the methods, they might not appreciate the application , so he is a very easy target across the board.

Overall though... and this applies across the board, whenever you have these conversations.... the reason why you have people on the side of using corrections speaking up and lending their personal experience is to help humanize the targets that are being bashed repeatedly by people who make very extreme remarks and attacks. If you see the people on the other side are good people and have happy and very spoiled dogs, it does (or should) become that more difficult to make broad statements insinuating abuse and cruelty. Or statements that training with love and play may not include corrections.

I use corrections, my dogs wear choke chains and on a more minimal/as needed basis, prongs - and I'm pretty much a very open and visible member of this forum. You can see my dogs. You all see the videos I've posted, right down to the puppy training videos with my youngest. My mentors are good people who are visible and/or easy to research. Other people in my area may know them and be able to describe their training styles, but you also have stuff posted out youtube and elsewhere. 

Michigan and Ohio members as well should know that me and others who "do stuff" with the dogs - we train at local clubs, and we show pretty regularly at shows and trials. Which actually makes it very difficult if we really wanted to remain "anonymous" online. 

I'll add that um... many of us are pretty nice people. If you come out to a trial I'm entered in or a dog show, I'll stop what I'm doing to chat with you, I'll let you visit with my dogs, and there won't be any coldness or rudeness as you might expect based on what you've heard from all those people out there making very general statements about people involved with dogs sports and so on.

What I suggest is being open minded as far as seeing there is more to dog training than just one side. And I encourage not just open mindedness from people who are getting into dog ownership and getting into training... but also honesty on the part of people who already are very experienced and have been around the block a few times. 

We get all divided up because there's people out there who are totally "my way or the highway" when it comes to training methods. And they thrive on the divisive arguments that they echo - despite many of these arguments being contradicted by the actual people in and out of the sports out there. 

Getting out there and getting into the middle of everything - it exposes you to people whose whole world is their dogs. And these dogs are having a better life in general because they are right in the middle of it all the time. But you have to have an open mind to really see that obedience training and these other sports - can be fun. 

This post will probably get criticized by the usual people on the basis of it coming from me and of course I'm saying the same thing over and over and again and again... but bottom line is I'm a very positive and friendly person. I want everyone else to be like that too. I want other people to enjoy their dogs, to excel, and have fun. As opposed to sitting back and spending all the usual time quoting your favorite non-sport people and talking about crime and punishment in dog training or whatever....  

I'm in a good mood by the way, because I get to go to class tonight. And knock on wood, see if some exciting success I saw with an advanced exercise (directed jumping) the other training day is the real thing. This exercise is one of those which has several parts and pieces to it, does require correction sometimes in order for the dog to learn... and so on.


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## Alaska7133

Traildogs,
Great article! Thanks

Megora,
You are so right. When you put yourself out there, you make yourself open to criticism and unfortunately legal action. On the other hand, by exposing ourselves we show others our methods and share information. Being open is a good thing, getting slayed incorrectly is wrong. 

I too compete in obedience and field. Our events are open to the public. We welcome anyone to come and watch. There are many months and years of work behind each and every dog in a trial or test. In a test or trial, we are not showing our training, only the finished (we hope) results. I'm only learning and have far to go, but it is a journey I recommend to anyone like the above posters that are critical of Cesar to see what it takes to go beyond a dog that lays on the couch 100% to one that competes.


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## AmberSunrise

I compete (successfully enough for HIT & HC honors) at the higher levels of obedience & agility.
I use R+ training.

That said, CM is working with dogs that need strong action - I do not agree with his methods but I do not have the pressure to produce results quickly or possibly have the dog euthanized.

Would I smack down a butt? No. But unless I see a frightened dog I will not report it either.

Competing at the higher levels of obedience & agility & rally call for different skills than lower levels. Competing at lower levels of agility & obedience call for different skills than manners training. And rehabiliating a dog calls for skills I personally doubt most of us have (i exclude myself here to some extent since we used to take in dogs, mostly German shepards, with problem past).

I think we all should perhaps learn to look beyond the methods and look at the relationship. Is the dog safe, happy and eager to be with his person? Is there a relationship that shows teamwork and joy?

I was doing fieldwork, but I do not enjoy the vocalizations of dogs being hit with a correction; actually I want to cry. But! Many of the dogs love their field work & their trainers. So who can really say that there is only one right way?

I see all kinds of training styles, and while there are a few people I will honestly distance myself from, almost everyone out there loves their dog and works on the relationship - whether they use a leash or not, a flat collar or a choke or a prong. In field the eCollar comes into play.


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## Alaska7133

Sunrise said:


> Would I smack down a butt? No. But unless I see a frightened dog I will not report it either.


I never said I smacked a butt down. Ever. When training a young puppy, I say sit, and push their butt down to get them to understand what sit means. I never smack dogs. There is nothing to be gained.


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## Megora

> Competing at the higher levels of obedience & agility & rally call for different skills than lower levels. Competing at lower levels of agility & obedience call for different skills than manners training. And rehabiliating a dog calls for skills I personally doubt most of us have (i exclude myself here to some extent since we used to take in dogs, mostly German shepards, with problem past).


I slightly agree with this, but wanted to nudge something that I think is so important to keep in mind. 

You have so many people who avoid higher levels of obedience than what they currently do or currently are exposed to, because they see that as a completely different set of people and different world completely. 

It's so important to remember that we all are the same people regardless of the issues we deal with or what we aspire to. While skill levels are different based on experience and exposure, people shouldn't feel boxed into a specific area and avoid going out of their comfort zone. 

I'm a pet owner before everything else - just like I know Sharon and others I appreciate and respect are pet owners first. Our dogs live with us. They are members of the family. They are our babies. When we don't have to work on a given day, we get all excited about spending extra time with the dogs or doing stuff that retirees or non-workers take for granted...!  

There are no perfect dogs and every dog that I've owned had some kind of "puzzle" that we had to work our way through....

And as long as the owner is willing and interested and the dog is sound and able - people who compete in the lower levels of obedience are a title away from competing in the higher levels of obedience. 

I hate it when I see people who train and compete at a higher level excluding people they see as not part of their group. There can be a lot of scorn for pet owners - some of which is related to a lot of the goofy stuff coming from pet trainers which the pet owners unknowingly echo. 

I also hate the lack of ambition you see with pet owners who have great dogs - SOUND dogs. Something I was so envious of when I had my Danny who was physically crippled a good portion of his life and my Jacks who went through a "dark age" when he decided that he was afraid of everything (I still have no idea what happened to start that other than coming home and finding him locked in a closet when he was about 2 years old - after which point any noises would put him into a catatonic state which I had to work through). With me, I wanted so badly to have a good dog to get out there and have all the fun I could see my friends having... and it pretty much drove me nuts to see people not taking advantage of the really great and promising dogs they owned!


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## 3181wly

The truth about this guy likely will never be known. He is hated by many, loved by many, and unknown to most. Pack leader? Heck, I don't know. I figure he is getting slammed because someone sees an advantage in slamming him.


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## Ljilly28

Decided not to comment


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## Jud

Megora said:


> I slightly agree with this, but wanted to nudge something that I think is so important to keep in mind.
> 
> You have so many people who avoid higher levels of obedience than what they currently do or currently are exposed to, because they see that as a completely different set of people and different world completely.
> 
> It's so important to remember that we all are the same people regardless of the issues we deal with or what we aspire to. While skill levels are different based on experience and exposure, people shouldn't feel boxed into a specific area and avoid going out of their comfort zone.
> 
> I'm a pet owner before everything else - just like I know Sharon and others I appreciate and respect are pet owners first. Our dogs live with us. They are members of the family. They are our babies. When we don't have to work on a given day, we get all excited about spending extra time with the dogs or doing stuff that retirees or non-workers take for granted...!
> 
> There are no perfect dogs and every dog that I've owned had some kind of "puzzle" that we had to work our way through....
> 
> And as long as the owner is willing and interested and the dog is sound and able - people who compete in the lower levels of obedience are a title away from competing in the higher levels of obedience.
> 
> I hate it when I see people who train and compete at a higher level excluding people they see as not part of their group. There can be a lot of scorn for pet owners - some of which is related to a lot of the goofy stuff coming from pet trainers which the pet owners unknowingly echo.
> 
> I also hate the lack of ambition you see with pet owners who have great dogs - SOUND dogs. Something I was so envious of when I had my Danny who was physically crippled a good portion of his life and my Jacks who went through a "dark age" when he decided that he was afraid of everything (I still have no idea what happened to start that other than coming home and finding him locked in a closet when he was about 2 years old - after which point any noises would put him into a catatonic state which I had to work through). With me, I wanted so badly to have a good dog to get out there and have all the fun I could see my friends having... and it pretty much drove me nuts to see people not taking advantage of the really great and promising dogs they owned!


Don't you think 'Hate' is a very strong word. It is a bit leap to use such a finite , 
extremely negative word that most problems are based on. Do you really 'Hate' these pet owners and such?


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## Jud

Personally....I've never cottoned to Cesar Milan and since I work in Television...I know how shows are pieced together. Putting dogs in front of a whole film crew and having to do 
'take' after 'take' is never in the best interest of the Dog. Believe me! If he truly was 100% dedicated to his craft...he would have been elevated to his present status without having a 'Dog Reality TV Show'. I instinctively never trusted his methods or that we saw the full picture. I can't say for sure though....who is ever truly sure unless they've witnessed first hand?


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## Megora

Grammar lessonish and responding to a comment that was probably more intended to be obnoxious and rude but what the hey. 



> I hate *it *when I see people


Note, the object is not the people. The hate would be more the emotion or reaction to something you see.



> I also hate* the lack of ambition *you see with pet owners


Again, note the object isn't the pet owners. It is the lack of ambition. 

There are people out there who naturally are good trainers and own dogs who are naturally quite good and sound. But the lack of application is disappointing, particularly when they have something really good on their hands.

Hate is an appropriate emotion. Actually my priest gave a sermon on various emotions and explaining how they are good or bad depending on situation or reason. In this case, hate is not directed at anyone or anything in a bad way. It is more along the lines of seeing the promise in a person or a dog and feeling disappointed that they themselves have no inspiration or intention to use what they have. I'm not impressed by little things like "OMG look at my dog jumping into the water" or "OMG look at my dog mingling with other dogs" kind of stuff. I'm impressed by hard work and results that people get when they apply themselves and use what they have.


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## CAROLINA MOM

This thread sure has gotten way off track..............


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## Swampcollie

CAROLINA MOM said:


> This thread sure has gotten way off track..............


The thread is WAY off topic. 

There was a baseless allegation that CM was "Abusing" animals. The Authorities having jurisdiction investigated the report, and found the allegation to be without merit and closed the case.


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