# Are the Dog Whisperer's Methods Harmful?



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

From KOMO-TV in Seattle, WA:

Are the Dog Whisperer's methods harmful? 

Cesar Millan is known as a miracle working with out-of-control animals. But some trainers think Millan is turning dogs into ticking time bombs.

http://www.komonews.com/home/video/37440019.html?video=YHI&t=a


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

I thought this video would be a story like "this dog hurt someone after CM trained it". Something more in depth.

I've often wondered what happened to the 2nd dog they showed. I remember watching that episode and it looked awful. The owners were going to put the dog down (many trainers advised them to) and CM was a last hope.


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## Loboto-Me (Nov 13, 2008)

Positive reinforcement works for most dogs, but when a dog has psychological issues, problems where they may lose their lives or not find any enjoyment in their life because of them, it takes more than positive reinforcement. If Sophie was in that situation, I'd call him in a heartbeat to help out if other methods had failed.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

See...I don't like all of his methods, but I also think the criticisms in that news story were kind of off base. There's no reason to think that a dog would redirect aggression as a "ticking time bomb" if its owner learned how to manage the aggressive behavior. I agree that he sometimes resorts to extreme methods in order to show a quicker improvement, but some of the dogs he works with are too wrapped up in anxiety, fear, and aggression to respond to purely positive motivation.

I do think that 99% of training should be positive, but 99% of dogs aren't as out of whack as the ones he works with on the show. I mostly do see him training the owners in ways to make their dogs more attentive, obedient, and calm.

He does tend to confront aggression, which in my personal experience makes the dog more aggressive, at least in the short term, which is why I don't tend to use that technique. I'm not willing to sustain bites like he is, and I think you should at all costs avoid giving a dog the experience of biting a human.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I just read his (2nd) book and he makes a point of saying he is not a dog trainer, he is a dog rehabilitator.


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## ilovemydogs (Jan 22, 2009)

I agree with some of his methods and not with others. Reading his first book and wathing the shows helped me tremendously with Bailey. She had a lot of issues when we got her (I suspect abuse from the last owner). She would cower and growl when given some commands and bite at her paws and tail. I was surprised at how quickly I was able to walk her on the leash when I held it correctly and walked her with my other dog. I also walk her with a backpack and she has a treadmill. She is still not perfect, but she is a lot better.


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

One thing I noticed is they used clips from his first season.. I had a lot of issues with those methods.. and even turned the channel a few times. I have noticed this season he has been doing a lot more positive.. even getting on the floor and playing.. He has used desensitization and counter conditioning, also. I am a big fan of those because I deal with insecure reactive dogs. There is no magic one size fits all for all dogs. We need to have the intelligence to decern what might work with ours. He does have a lot of good facts.. There is no one " dog person " that I agree with 100% of the time. I listen, take what I want and ignore the rest. With mine I have always had good results with postive methods. With a dog headed for the bridge because of his aggressive behavior.. I have had no experience with. This seems to be Milan's expertise.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

You have to keep in mind that he is dealing with highly aggressive dogs. His methods are not necessary or recommended for the average pet.

If he used the shock collar on that dog with no previous training and working up to using it, he was absolutely wrong in that situation. Of course the dog reacted, something "bit" him he bit back.

I don't know if the dogs Cesar works with are then a ticking time bomb. If they become calmer and more even tempered I can't see how that would lead to them acting out later.

But I would not use his methods on my dogs, they don't need them, and neither do the majority of the pet dogs in the US.

Can you really teach a dog not to be cat aggressive?


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

To be honest, most of the dogs we board that we have issues with are 'spoiled' at home and never told 'no' to anything. The dogs with more controling, firm owners are usually great to work with. My own dog aggressive boy got his start with problems in a 'no negative' training situation. In part because the other dogs around him were permitted to snark at him, and in part because I wasn't allowed to do anything more than show him a ball when he was nailed. As things got worse with him their solution was to work him in the parking lot for a few weeks, then near the door, then inside the door, then move a few feet closer... and maybe in a year he'd be able to work in the building again.

We switched groups, put a prong collar on and ran in a tournament six weeks later. I don't do flyball with him now, but he's ok to go into training situations with other dogs and mind his manners.

It's like kids, sometimes you do have to say "no". They're not all the same and the same methods aren't going to work for every dog (in Ticket's case, he was just quite happy to stare at the other dogs and lunge at them, with me offering treats or a ball or not there at all).

As for cats, we have one, the dogs respect her and don't hurt her (Ticket will stare at her for hours at a time, but doesn't chase or touch her other than to sniff at her).

Lana


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Of course, treating a golden puppy like a food aggressive rescue dog is a recipe for disaster. And I don't doubt that applying Cesar's methods incompletely (or at all) can cause other problems to crop up. 

That said, I think it's important to watch what Cesar does rather than what he says, and in two ways I do think that there is something for the average dog owner to learn.

a) Calm assertive energy: Your dog takes cues from you and if you're freaking out, he/she will too. Don't treat the dog like a baby, don't treat him like property. Be the pack leader by example, so to speak.

b) Exercise, exercise, exercise: Most of the dogs Cesar encounters are bored and underexercised. (One couple with a Boxer admitted to two walks a week on camera. Which likely means two walks a month.) Giving them an outlet for their physical and psychic energy can make a huge difference in a dog's behavior.

While their styles are very different, I don't find a huge difference between Cesar and, say, Victoria Stillwell. That said, I hope to never have a dog that needs "rehabilitation."

Here's a link to a Malcolm Gladwell profile of Cesar in the New Yorker

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_05_22_a_dog.html


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Poor Ceasor....must be frustrating to deal with this type of hatred. The more I see it, the more I like Ceasor and the more I distrust other methods...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The _New Yorker_ profile shows how tightly controlled the PR is for Cesar. Even a reporter of such high stature got very little new material, nothing fresh. The Sugar JonBee, and Lori/Tyler/Bandit episodes have aired in reruns at least ten times. The "experts" are ones that watch tapes and analyze Cesar's style of movement or whatever, but arent rigorously salient to a profile of him; "The Other End of The Leash is one many of us have read on our own . I really felt the laborious effort of Malcolm Gladwell to craft the piece, but there's nothing at all new in it. That is the most interesting thing to me, that even with an august publication like The New Yorker, there will be no discussion of the cases that do go wrong, end up on the cutting room floor, the dog that got killed on the tread mill, or anything not prepackaged to the point of being pretty tired.


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## Karen2 (Jan 5, 2009)

*Cesar*

We have a Free Preview of the NGeo channel this month on Dish network.
We are watching Cesar and are just amazed how he can change behavior.
Of both the humans and the dogs.
I'm thankful Sierra is as good as she is (not that we don't have a few issues), the family that had her before us had problems with jumping on people and furniture and just being a little crazy.
The next morning after she came to live with us she was in the couch and I told her off, she hasn't been back on since. So I think the Rules Boundaries and Limitations that Cesar uses, makes sense.
We started our obedience class this last Monday. I seem to have more issues than the the dog does!
Karen


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> Poor Ceasor....must be frustrating to deal with this type of hatred. The more I see it, the more I like Ceasor and the more I distrust other methods...


Are you saying that because of the "hatred" that Cesar faces, you like him more and distrust other methods? That doesn't really make sense to me.

I watch Cesar every Friday night. Like I said to my husband last night, I don't always agree with his approach, but I learn a lot from him anyways. I personally have had a very highly aggressive, or as he would call it, a red zone case. I learned to manage her, though I would never had done an alpha roll or held her down while my other dog stood over her, because I know with her it would have backfired. But I did learn how to read her from watching Cesar and to tell when she was getting ramped up, so that I could get her redirected some of the time.

Unfortunately, she continued to escalate and I had to have her put to sleep when she was 10 years old.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I think their are people bent on destroying him and any credibility he has and they encourage ilicit this type of "news story".

I trust Cesar more because he doesn't have to destroy others. I distrust an ideology that seems compelled to destroy ideas that work but don't fit in the "group think" they surround themselves by. 

I personally think its harmful to dogs when people intimidate owers from methods that would work best for some dogs. And I think we should have a news special on it. 

Something like...

_Are totaltarian positive only behaviorists sending dogs to the shelter and to their death? Could they turn your dog into an out of control animal destined to die? Stay tuned and find out what some trainers think...._

Then we could have examples of when positive only techniques didn't work and the owners were intimidated from trying other options. 

A technique should stand on its own and not be propped up by attacking another. I don't see this story as fair and it leads me to not trust behaviorists that are part of an idealogy that says, their way is the only way or you will turn your dog into a ticking time bomb. I call it scare-mongering. And its a shame. Because there are new ideas out there that are good, but its self-destructive for those ideas when they aren't allowed to stand on their own.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Lucky's mom said:


> Poor Ceasor....must be frustrating to deal with this type of hatred. The more I see it, the more I like Ceasor and the more I distrust other methods...


 
Good grief. "Hatred" ? I don't think so. I think Millan seems like a very nice man, and he is committed to what he does. Doesn't mean that I agree with him, and in many cases I feel that he is just plain wrong. And in some, I _do _think that what he is doing is dangerous. A disclaimer on the show saying "Do not try this at home" or whatever it says means nothing to many who will, and do, go right out and attempt the same thing. Doesn't mean that I "hate" him. 

Actually, I really resent it when people call those who don't agree with something "haters", or "bashers". It's ridiculous to me.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Any technique can be "dangerous" for the dog if the mindset is inflexible and built on idealogy and not results.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> Poor Ceasor....must be frustrating to deal with this type of hatred. The more I see it, the more I like Ceasor and the more I distrust other methods...


I don't see any hatred here. Just average people trying to learn and get advice from experienced and professional Golden trainers/breeders. I appreciate seeing _all _of the input. 

I'm not that familiar with Cesar but I know that even PetSmart trainers only use positive reinforcement and will not allow dogs in their classes with the choke chains or prong collars, not that I would use one anyway.

That said, a co-worker of mine has a German Shepard pup and watches Cesar. She was telling me she was trying to do the alpha roll with him since that what Cesar teaches but to me, that just doesn't seem like good advice.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The positive trainers who are voicing their concerns regarding CM methods are doing so out of a geniune belief that his methods can be harmful to dogs - and the people who live with them.

And in many cases, his methods can and do backfire when attempted by members of his television audience. I can't be the only one out there who has heard, "I tried FILL-IN-THE-BLANK-TECHNIQUE that I saw on the Dog Whisperer and it made Fluffy worse." Or worse than that... "and Fluffy bit me!"

The reality is that CM may be able to pull off all the dominant stuff, but many owners can't.

And for the life of me, I'll NEVER understand the level of adoration and claims of miracle-working that people will spout, all from watching a well-edited television show. It's an edited television show..... edited... They can make it look like ANYTHING is happening. To believe that CM is walking in the door and in an hour, "FIXING" a dog is just.... I'm sorry.... but in my opinion, it's just ignorant.

I will say that in his defense, it seems that his training style is evolving a bit. I did catch a moment of an episode where he was using treats to counter-condition a dog-aroused dog.


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

After my previous post... I feel the need to post again. I do watch him on Friday nights. Last night he did okay with a Basset rescue that didn't like the man of the house.. but no mention of exercise.. In my opinion... he totally dropped the ball on the second dog.. a Blue Heeler. Over weight, bored to the point of destuction and fits.. The people claimed they were busy all day and tired at night. They lived in a small apartment. Nothing was said about exercise, or mental stimulation.. But I was really angry when he brought out the tennis racquet! He was showing the owners how to remove the dog from a room and make him stop fixationg on their feet. This dog got more and more confused and was sneering and growling at Cesar... Out of the blue he announces I am done here.. and the show is over.. The end clip shows the people nervously saying the dog was a work in progress... In this case I was thinking. yup tic tick tick...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

What did he do with the tennis racket?


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

I watch Cesar Millan, in fact I DVR it. Would I ever try most of his methods? Probably not. But I do respect that he is educating people to get out there and exercise their dogs. I believe in exercise, discipline, affection and being calm assertive. I do find myself laughing sometimes at some things he does/says though.


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> What did he do with the tennis racket?


 He used it as a barrier so to speak and to push the dog back.. not hitting. He had also dragged the poor thing to a baby gate he was terrified of since puppyhood.. had had a bad experience.. I just felt like he just copped out this time.. Was very dissappointed.. How many people will be chasing their dogs around with tennis racquets instead of teaching the dog what is expected of him.. in a fair way he can understand.. and providing for the dog's needs.... ? I like him.. he gets a lot of things right.. He is human.. he gets a lot of things wrong. But then, so do I... :curtain:


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

jnmarr said:


> After my previous post... I feel the need to post again. I do watch him on Friday nights. Last night he did okay with a Basset rescue that didn't like the man of the house.. but no mention of exercise.. In my opinion... he totally dropped the ball on the second dog.. a Blue Heeler. Over weight, bored to the point of destuction and fits.. The people claimed they were busy all day and tired at night. They lived in a small apartment. Nothing was said about exercise, or mental stimulation.. But I was really angry when he brought out the tennis racquet! He was showing the owners how to remove the dog from a room and make him stop fixationg on their feet. This dog got more and more confused and was sneering and growling at Cesar... Out of the blue he announces I am done here.. and the show is over.. The end clip shows the people nervously saying the dog was a work in progress... In this case I was thinking. yup tic tick tick...


In both cases, I felt like he didn't address the exercise issue. Both dogs were overweight and he said that the ACD really needed to do what he was bred to do, which is herding. But unlike in past cases, he didn't suggest ways for them to help him with his "herding frustration". I do understand the tennis racket, because he may have bitten. But like I said to Jay last night, I would have put a baby gate at the bedroom door years before with that dog.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Does anyone have a link to a story about the dog that died on the treadmill? I've tried googling and I come up with a lawsuit about a dog that was supposedly injured but didn't die, but nothing that I find is an actual news story, or something reliable about a death. I've found tons of people mentioning this, but I can't substantiate it.

I don't think Cesar is always right, but I don't think he's always wrong, either.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

The only thing I can find is where a TV producer sued because his dog was injured. It looks like if it is legit that it was negligence from the workers not due directly to the treadmill. It looks like they walked off and left the dog and the dog was choked.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

*KEY: PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.*

I can't tell you how many times I hear, "I did this" or "I use this" because "I saw it on the Dog Whisperer." 

Drives me nuts!

The latest was a little 8 month old pupper who was kept on her leash with a prong collar while her owner walked her around INSIDE the enclosed dog park. Poor little thing kept getting her neck "bit" every time she moved because she was excited to be there. The owner claimed that she was "aggressive" and wanting to "attack" other dogs. I'm no expert but her body language to me was "I wanna sniff you and play." The guy said he saw this technique on the Dog Whisperer. Made me so sad for that little puppy. HE was ruining her!

Another recent time was when someone I work with told me that he alpha rolled a little chihuahua who was barking at him! Again, saw it on the Dog Whisperer. He said, "I showed him who's boss."

We read examples on GRF of well-intentioned people trying Cesar's techniques on their own pets but cringe when the description of the behavior is simply NOT something that requires such profound correction and is almost always a problem with the human NOT the animal.

I *LOVE* Cesar Milan (well, I have an intense like for him  ). I admire his love and dedication to dogs. Watching his show had a small part in inspiring me to get my own companion. 

Like FQ said, Milan may be able to pull off what he does but the ordinary owner shouldn't even try (which is CLEARLY stated in the disclaimer at the beginning and throughout each show). People seem to totally disregard this disclaimer, big time. It's like when that show Jacka** first came on MTV. There was a disclaimer not to jump off your parent's garage but teenagers did it anyway - and got hurt.

That news piece was too short to get across the point of positive reinforcement vs Milan techniques. All it served to do was to make Milan look bad, imo. Cesar handled the criticism well.

I dunno, I guess people have no freakin' common sense when it comes to the show, the Dog Whisperer? That's not Cesar Milan's fault.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Personally, I dont like his methods. But then, I dont like this "all positive" way of thinking either. I really believe there has to be middle ground. When you're dealing with an aggressive dog, I'm not sure either method would work long term, exclusively. 

CM is a television personality. I really believe that there is a lot that happens behind the scenes that they dont air in the TV show. I think it makes for good entertainment for a dog lover. That said, I know a lady that came to an agility class with her dogs and was raving about how her dogs will walk nicely on a leash now, and how much better behaved they are since she'd been watching the show. She repeatedly calles CM "amazing". There lies the danger... dispite the "dont try this at home" warning, there are always those that think they can do it and for whatever reason, ignore the fact that they haven't seen the whole process. I dont worry about the dogs CM has worked with being "ticking time bombs", but rather the dogs that people think they can use that sort of method on because they've watched a TV show.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> The only thing I can find is where a TV producer sued because his dog was injured. It looks like if it is legit that it was negligence from the workers not due directly to the treadmill. It looks like they walked off and left the dog and the dog was choked.


Yeah, that's the story.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/06/entertainment/et-quick6.5

I saw photos of the poor dog at the vet's office. It was really, really sad. Certainly didn't happen at the hands of CM himself, but the injuries were from CM-related methods and happened at his center. I seem to recall that the suit was settled by NG.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

It was negligence that created the injuries, not the technique. They left the dog unattended. Another example of negligence is leaving a dog unattended on a grooming table. Dogs have died from that. 

So it doesn't make sense to say CM's technique kills or injures dogs...that's not accurate.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Kohanagold said:


> She repeatedly calles CM "amazing". There lies the danger... dispite the "dont try this at home" warning, there are always those that think they can do it and for whatever reason, ignore the fact that they haven't seen the whole process. I dont worry about the dogs CM has worked with being "ticking time bombs", but rather the dogs that people think they can use that sort of method on because they've watched a TV show.


You know with all this defending I'm doing of CM, I have to admit I rarely get to watch his show. The few times I did, I didn't see a "don't try this at home' warning. Is that for certain situations?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Lucky's mom said:


> It was negligence that created the injuries, not the technique. They left the dog unattended. Another example of negligence is leaving a dog unattended on a grooming table. Dogs have died from that.
> 
> So it doesn't make sense to say CM's technique kills or injures dogs...that's not accurate.


Poor choice of words on my part. The case was settled, so we don't know exactly what happened. So I guess technically, it's difficult to say with accuracy even if it was negligence that caused the injuries.

All I was pointing out is that whoever was working the dog, was using techniques (tredmill usage, choke chains, etc.) that *are* techniques used by CM.


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> You know with all this defending I'm doing of CM, I have to admit I rarely get to watch his show. The few times I did, I didn't see a "don't try this at home' warning. Is that for certain situations?


This is the disclaimer (that's on the tv screen and voiced by an announcer) before each show and after each and every commercial break:

*Do not attempt *
*the techniques you *
*are about to see *
*without consulting *
*a professional*​ 
To me that says exactly what it says. What I take away from viewing the Dog Whisperer is some valuable education about dogs....not how to deal with *MY* dog's problems. Unfortunately, it seems that many people take this fascinating show too literally.​


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm (Responses to common statements from fans)
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-05-dog-whisperer_x.htm (Lawsuit due to injury as a result of his methods)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE3DF1E3EF932A0575BC0A9609C8B63 (New York Times)
http://www.urbandawgs.com/luescher_millan.html (DVM Behaviorist from Purdue examines Millan's techniques)
http://www.iaabc.org/articles/dog_whisperer.htm (Concerns about child safety from the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL (Comparison of Millan to a qualified trainer)


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> You know with all this defending I'm doing of CM, I have to admit I rarely get to watch his show. The few times I did, I didn't see a "don't try this at home' warning. Is that for certain situations?


Lucky's Mom, 
I guess I wonder why you feel compelled to defend someone who's rich and popular when you don't really know his work that well. (I don't consider myself a regular Cesar watcher, but I've seen the disclaimer dozens of times.)

FWIW, I think that the disclaimer is just a matter of common sense. You're seeing only a tiny percentage of the time that Cesar spends with the dogs and the owners, edited not for maximum educational benefit, but max entertainment value. 

I think that many owners--even us--can benefit from his calm, assertive demeanor around his dogs. And the fact that dogs need consistent boundaries and regular exercise. 

best
allen


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

avincent52 said:


> I think that many owners--even us--can benefit from his calm, assertive demeanor around his dogs. And the fact that dogs need consistent boundaries and regular exercise.
> 
> best
> allen


Yup. Stuff that he hardly invented, and that good trainers have taught since long before CM began dog training. If this is the only thing that people take away from watching his show, I'd be happy. The rest, not so much...


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

Allen and Laura, ditto here. If people used common sense when teaching and living with their dogs, the world would be a happier place for the dogs. Exercise, consistency, good nutrition and rewards for doing what's asked just isn't that hard!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

avincent52 said:


> Lucky's Mom,
> I guess I wonder why you feel compelled to defend someone who's rich and popular when you don't really know his work that well. (I don't consider myself a regular Cesar watcher, but I've seen the disclaimer dozens of times.)
> 
> FWIW, I think that the disclaimer is just a matter of common sense. You're seeing only a tiny percentage of the time that Cesar spends with the dogs and the owners, edited not for maximum educational benefit, but max entertainment value.
> ...


Well, I have benefited from some of his techniques that I have heard about...mainly from this forum. Especially from walking and how to act in a confident leadership role. Sometimes its that "missing peice" that makes all the difference and clicker training didn't fill it. True the Alpha roll didn't work out well for us...but ya know what? It has for other people. So I don't slam it.

I defend cm because I don't think the criticism against him is fair or objective. The attacks are often personal and the "he will harm your dog" attitude is over the top. Plus, when you research what's in the articles that rail against him...you find that much is pure hype and built on an ideology that I don't share.

I think for many but _not all critics_, they are up in arms because his non-politically correct techniques are successful. The same people that think sending your dog to the crate when the dog is out of control is akin to abuse and "harmful", says this guy is "harmful". That tells me his critiques live in utopia or are at least intolerant of certain techniques and tools that might make all the difference for some dogs. What would I have done without the crate? Lucky would be a very misbehaved dog to this day...because it was the only way I could control him.

See...I think its "harmful" to intimidate people away from techniques that might keep their dog in the same home they started in. 


I don't see the show regularly as it isn't on here regularly. ....but I have seen some of his shows. What I have seen was not aggressive dogs ready to be put down...but normal dogs that drag its owner for a walk and bites collars in two.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I have not read all the posts on here but I have read enough of them.
My questions are these to those of you who are not in agreement with cm's ways!

Have YOU personally got in there and broken up a dog fight?
Put ALL of your strength and body into stopping a RED ZONE dog
from killing another dog?
Have YOU personally gotten bit and had to get stitches or take 
a dog to the vet for this??
Have YOU personally own a RED ZONE dog and know in your heart of hearts that you 
can NOT trust it around other dogs or people?

Well, my husband and I have to ALL of the above!
We, HAVE and WILL CONTINUE to use the methods we have learned from CM, we have studied his methods and his mentors methods for yrs. 
We have helped rehabilitate over 500+ RED Zone cases into good dogs, I am talking about dogs that even shelter workers would not approach, dogs that have put their owners in the hosptial, dogs that have killed cats or other dogs.
And to this day, they are ALL still good dogs!

Plus I also teach postitve re-inforcement to dogs that are NOT Red Zone cases,
so I am trained in both methods of this and I full heartedly AGREE with CM's methods...

I know alot of people do NOT and that is your opinion but please do NOT cut down those of us who do!!! Those of us who are NOT affraid to help the red zone dogs...


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> I have not read all the posts on here but I have read enough of them.
> My questions are these to those of you who are not in agreement with cm's ways!
> 
> Have YOU personally got in there and broken up a dog fight?
> ...


Though I am not one to disagree with all of Cesar's methods, I don't agree with some of them. 

I can honestly say yes to every question you have asked except for the being bitten part, because I had to learn how to break up a fight without being hurt myself. My son was bitten breaking one up, though.

I agree with the exercise part and being calm and in charge when it comes to the dogs. I don't agree with manhandling them to get them to listen. I lived with a red zone case for 10 years, so I am very familiar with dealing with them.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Well Cesar doesn't have to work for every one. Just like Clicker training doesn't have to be everyone's salvation. He simply should be allowed to exist, be happy, serve the people that he benefits and make as much money as our capitalistic society can give him.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> Well Cesar doesn't have to work for every one. Just like Clicker training doesn't have to be everyone's salvation. He simply should be allowed to exist, be happy, serve the people that he benefits and make as much money as our capitalistic society can give him.


While I'm sure Cesar is happy to have you leap to his defense, I'm not sure he really needs it. He's got a television show that's in almost constant rotation, books, DVDs and dog care products. If he's endangered, what does that make the rest of us? 

Sure, he draws criticism, some justified, some not. His critics tend to be vocal because that's the only way to be heard above the din. And, of course, his techniques get "results." He hand picks the cases and the production company selects the footage to contrast a dog at its absolute pre-Cesar craziest with a perfect "calm, submissive" post-Cesar moment.
It's the magic of editing.

The other thing to remember is that his show is pure entertainment, and just like you wouldn't use Everybody Loves Raymond as a substitute for marriage counseling, you shouldn't use Dog Whisperer as your primary source of dog training information. (And I don't.)

But, like him or not, I don't think Cesar's in any danger of going away. 

allen

P.S.: Lucky's Mom, I'd really appreciate it if you could defend me the way you defend Cesar, John McCain and assorted other Rich White Guys. I'm under attack, too. Joe Queenan wrote a really mean review of my book in the New York Times last Sunday (he was assigned the review because I wrote for the Wall Street Journal.) Comparing me to Enrico Fermi! It's downright Un-American!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey, Ceasar's not white, right? I think he is Hispanic. LOL But he is rich.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

avincent52 said:


> While I'm sure Cesar is happy to have you leap to his defense, I'm not sure he really needs it. He's got a television show that's in almost constant rotation, books, DVDs and dog care products. If he's endangered, what does that make the rest of us?!


Well actually Allen, there is a danger to us all when hype and false hoods are actively used to destroy credibility. I'm not against criticism. I'm all for an honest assessment of the guy...gosh I need it.....I don't get his show. 





avincent52 said:


> P.S.: Lucky's Mom, what do I have to do to get you to defend me the way you defend Cesar, John McCain and assorted other Rich White Guys? Joe Queenan wrote a really mean review of my book in the New York Times last Sunday (he was assigned the review because I wrote for the Wall Street Journal.) Does that qualify? He's downright Un-American!


Well that is very cool. 

Many reviewers aren't worth the paper they write on. . Its gotten to the point where if the review is bad, then I head out to watch the movie or buy the book. Market your book like crazy and brush off the mutterings of Mr. Joe Queenan.

(I'm thinking you got some good reviews too.....they of course are valid...)


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## GRZ (Dec 4, 2008)

Hey Lucky's mom - if you have a good connection you can watch the episodes online:

http://channel.nationalgeographic.c....html?channel=39678&category=39679&title=6304

Unfortunately you have to sit through the commercials too!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

GRZ said:


> Hey Lucky's mom - if you have a good connection you can watch the episodes online:
> 
> http://channel.nationalgeographic.c....html?channel=39678&category=39679&title=6304
> 
> Unfortunately you have to sit through the commercials too!


Thank you!


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> Have YOU personally got in there and broken up a dog fight?
> Put ALL of your strength and body into stopping a RED ZONE dog
> from killing another dog?
> Have YOU personally gotten bit and had to get stitches or take
> ...


I sure have! I have a shih tsu cross that is missing an eye and a couple teeth, because SHE is one of those "red zone" dogs. 

I'm not saying I disagree with his methods so much as I disagree with people that think watching him do something on TV and seeing the results on an edited program, somehow qualifies them to use these sorts of techniques. It is an entertainment thing. I dont question his passion or love for dogs, but I think many of his techniques are over the top and sorely outdated for most dogs. 

I've trained dogs with the mentality of "do as I say or else" and "I am the boss". Does it work? Sure it does, IF you know what you're doing and IF you are able to read the dog. The dog doesn't think it has any choice but to obey. I've also trained dogs with the mentality of "let's play the game". There has to be some middle ground. 

I DO watch the show, and generally enjoy it. I dont buy the "ticking time bomb" theory, but I dont think his "methods" are always appropriate either. I understand that most of the time the dogs are misread and the owners feel no other option for them and the dog but to use CM. But he has also had the benefit of using his knowlege and expertise to evaluate and study the situation at great length and didn't simply decide on a whim to use this or that training method on a particular dog. You can bet that he creates a very well throught out, methodical plan for each and every dog he works with.

If you want to watch a television program that will teach you to teach your dog, buy a reference video. The dog whisperer is NOT what you're looking for. If you want to watch a television program about "out of control" dogs and a man walking in, making a very case oriented plan to help, and see how it goes, then sure. But one needs to heed the "dont try this at home" warning, rather than believing that it applies to someone else, because *they* know what they're doing. BJ


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> Many reviewers aren't worth the paper they write on. . Its gotten to the point where if the review is bad, then I head out to watch the movie or buy the book. Market your book like crazy and brush off the mutterings of Mr. Joe Queenan.
> 
> (I'm thinking you got some good reviews too.....they of course are valid...)



It's sort of a backhanded compliment having your book ripped by a self-described hatchet man. It's kind of like being called a treasonist by Ann Coulter. And yes, there were plenty of good reviews. 

But while I've gotten used to women stopping dead in traffic and staring in my direction ...at Tessie...the only one who mentioned my book, talked about Joe Queenan.

Defending Cesar Milan reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday at the bus stop. A neighbor, who has a nice cavalier spaniel who was sniffing Tessie, was complaining about the president's plan to curb executive compensation. 

She and her husband, it turns out *need* his Wall Street bonus or they won't be able to pay the mortgage on their second vacation house. 
And since he was on the regulation side of the business, telling people on the investment side that what they were doing is wrong, and being totally ignored, he *deserved* it. 
And since he got a Ph.D. he didn't start making big money until he was 30. 
And it's only recently that he' began making more than the Most Powerful Man in the Free World. 
And only after you include his bonus.

I couldn't help it. I told her about my spouse. She also has an MBA from one of the top business schools in the country. But she teaches science in public schools. She leaves the house at 6 am like her husband, and at midnight can often be found at the kitchen table grading papers and writing lesson plans. Her bonus? They put in a teacher's only line in the cafeteria. 

And if I were to, say, get run over walking Tessie back to the house, and she were to be the sole breadwinner in the family, we would be eligible for food stamps. 

Food stamps. 

Two kids, one spouse, working full time as a tenured teacher in a urban school district, and we would need public assistance to put food on our table. (And the food stamp calculation doesn't account for the fact that our local property taxes eat up about a 1/3 of her gross pay.) 

Our second vacation home will be a refrigerator box, when our neighbor gets her kitchen redone...again.

I feel her pain. 

Just like I feel Cesar Milan's.

allen


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I am sorry if I came off Holier then thou! I did not mean for it to come off that way!
The dogs in reference I have had to break up and got bit by were a 165lbs Mastiff trying to KILL 1 of my male Goldens, Nemo, and others such as Pits, Labs, Sheps, etc...

It is easy for people to say Oh I can break up any dog fight or I am the Boss of my pack when alot, not all, have NO CLUE what to do if it happens to them.
Most people FREAK out and yell, scream or whatever. 

I was just trying to say that to be in charge of your pack you do need to stay calm and assertive in ALL situations. 

Kohanagold, I am very glad that YOU are the pack leader of your fur kids and I do beleive you can handle anything. 

I was not attacking anyone in perticular just voicing my opinion..


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## RummysMum (Jan 9, 2009)

avincent52 said:


> Sure, he draws criticism, some justified, some not. His critics tend to be vocal because that's the only way to be heard above the din. And, of course, his techniques get "results." He hand picks the cases and the production company selects the footage to contrast a dog at its absolute pre-Cesar craziest with a perfect "calm, submissive" post-Cesar moment.
> It's the magic of editing.
> 
> The other thing to remember is that his show is pure entertainment, and just like you wouldn't use Everybody Loves Raymond as a substitute for marriage counseling, you shouldn't use Dog Whisperer as your primary source of dog training information. (And I don't.)


Yes, agree there. I will say though that in the wrong hands, many of his methods could be very dangerous for a basic home viewer and an aggressive alpha dog that lacks any training.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

avincent52 said:


> It's sort of a backhanded compliment having your book ripped by a self-described hatchet man. It's kind of like being called a treasonist by Ann Coulter. And yes, there were plenty of good reviews.
> 
> But while I've gotten used to women stopping dead in traffic and staring in my direction ...at Tessie...the only one who mentioned my book, talked about Joe Queenan.
> 
> ...


Why oh why did you have to bring up politics. But I think its interesting really because often our politics and worldview can even shape our opinion of Cesar. 


For instance, earlier, it was brought up out of the blue that he is rich. This surprised me. His income status never crossed my mind and I didn't think it relevant. I simply feel that he offers a service that people want, he works hard and gets paid for it. 

My argument in defense of Cesar is that many people like him, his show and his techniques and that he shouldn't be shunned or demonized simply because he doesn't fit a particular "mode" of group think. Criticize and demonize are two different things...and I think Cesar is often demonized. This is wrong in my opinion. His state of income, to me, was irrelevant and totally off topic.

In my world view, I don't want to decide who should have jets, bonus's, second vacation homes or how many books and dvds a person may have. I don't think I have that authority to decide when someone has acheived enough. Being in sales.....I can tell you that the bonus is not just part of a salery..they are earned after an extra goal is acheived. Too bad all rich people are automically labeled as greedy.....If we can label an entity greedy it should be congress. And these are the same folks taking away bonus's and instructing companies to fire salaried people. Crazy. 

In short, I don't change my opinion on someone's dog training technique or critisize them more or less because they are too rich or too poor, black, white, hispanic or asian. That is the world I live in. 

I don't pity your situation. But I do admire it. To be a published auther is a fine accomplishment and if it were me I'd appreciate what I have and focus on reaching the higher teirs of my dreams. I wouldn't be worried about acheiving too much. If your wife is not doing well in her job, then I would suggest she look at working for a private company. But if she is happy then I'm not sure one should feel resentful over someone else.

I myself...I want to be a housewife...but I appreciate the job I have and do the best I can do while I'm at it. Hopefully down the road..... 

So off my ranting and back to Cesar, he's rich ...big deal. I don't agree with everything he says or does, but he's helped me.


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## avincent52 (Jul 23, 2008)

This isn't about politics. 

Cesar Millan is lucky. He has a choice. If he's upset about being "demonized" he can have his agent call the National Geographic Channel, cancel the show, the books, the products, and in six months he'll be "demonized" as often as the Monks of New Skete.

The bank that this neighbor's husband worked for took *my* money from the TARP fund. And my elected representatives are telling them how they can use that money.
The government does the same thing to individuals who get food stamps or other government assistance. 

(Quite frankly, the "we take the winners" and "let the government bail us out of the losers" strategy of these banks smells an awful lot like a commingling of funds scandal that landed another financial analyst neighbor in jail for six years. Rightfully, I might add.)

As for my wife, it's not that she's not "doing well." She does her job magnificently, but she's working in a system that caps her compensation at level that would put a family of four on food stamps if she were the sole wage-earner. And if everyone who could get a better job were to up and leave the public schools (and education in general, because it's the same in private schools) who would teach our kids? 

But back to the original point. This isn't political. It's personal. You're feeling sorry for poor, demonized Cesar. You're feeling sorry for my neighbor who's fretting about that second vacation house. But, Joe Queenan demonizes me, you don't feel sorry. 

I'm hurt. 

Oh, well. I guess I'm not rich enough.

Allen


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## Nola (Jul 20, 2007)

Last night (3/5/09) I watched an episodeof TDW in which CM tried to "tame" two Goldens who, shockingly, jumped up relentlessly on the dog walker that came in to their yard every morning. On the show, CM mentioned that those were one of his all-time toughest cases, and that they totally exhausted him. Did anyone else out there watch it? I thought the segmment was absolutely hilarious, because it was so obvious that 
1. 
CM was completely out of his element dealing with the two Goldens (BTW, those two Goldens, Jake & Riley, had normal GR personalities, i.e. total sweethearts with near-infinite energy). 
2. 
The owners don't really understand their dogs, being that they thought they had to keep them outside all the time because they were a danger to her kids (so they thought)
3. 
In a nominee for the "duuuuuuuuh" statement of they year, the dog walker noticed that a quick walk only gets the GRs more revved up. 

During the segment, the two GR's calmed down immensely after a short time to run at their local dog park. Surprise, Surprise. 

Now for a gratuitious photo of Nola:

<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/3266329261/" title="100_0819 by no_hypothermia, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3311/3266329261_cd9e28fce9.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="100_0819" /></a>


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Shucks, I saw that on the guide but I passed over it. Shoot! Maybe it will be on again soon.

But don't I feel better : That jumping thing has been the toughest for me too. Daisy knows not to jump on somebody when I'm right there but as soon as I turn away or put some distance between me and the other person, there she goes :uhoh: 

That golden enthusiasm, it's the thing that attracts us the most to this breed, but it's the one thing that's most difficult to manage too


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