# Anyone know of this breeder????



## cubbysan

I looked at the website last week. The red flags I saw were 1) he does not mention the parents pedigree or any certifications 2) at 9 weeks old, how come all the puppies are still available???


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## cubbysan

I just saw that he told you he had the certifications. Be careful, because some breeders think a vet health certificate is the same thing.


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## Pointgold

Doodle said:


> Hi. Just wondering if anyone knows anything about this breeder? His advertisement runs above and his web site is www.mygoldens.com. He is located in Dracut, Massachusetts which is relatively close to me. We're tossing around the idea of getting another pup when Brady is a little older and wondered if he is a good person to deal with. I didn't find a whole lot of information on his website (which makes me a little suspicious), so I emailed him to ask if the parents of his pups are on site and if their AKC registrations and clearances are available for prospective buyers to see...he says yes. Any info you may have would be most appreciated!


Ask him for the registered name of the sire and dam. They can then be looked up on the OFA database site. If he will not provide them, tell him "Thanks, but no thanks."


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## buckeyegoldenmom

Pointgold said:


> Ask him for the registered name of the sire and dam. They can then be looked up on the OFA database site. If he will not provide them, tell him "Thanks, but no thanks."



Wonderful advice!!!! I so wish 15 years ago I had all the wisdom and advice I now have here on this site.


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## S-Dog's Mom

LOL! Ditto! I did some research this weekend on Simon's "pedigree".
what I found was SCARY at best, and even found one of the "breeders" had a Cease and Desist order, along with a $25,000 fine (I was just doing Google searches on the dogs names). OUCH! 
(Most of his lineage comes from the state of MO)
Well, Live and learn-I found this site after I bought Simon- still no regrets- he's an amazing dog. 
If I had it to do over again, I would certainly have looked into other breeders.
You are very lucky to have found this site FIRST!
It's amazing when I look back to when I first got Simon and now, and the things I have learned...


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## Maggies mom

S-Dog's Mom said:


> LOL! Ditto! I did some research this weekend on Simon's "pedigree".
> what I found was SCARY at best, and even found one of the "breeders" had a Cease and Desist order, along with a $25,000 fine (I was just doing Google searches on the dogs names). OUCH!
> (Most of his lineage comes from the state of MO)
> Well, Live and learn-I found this site after I bought Simon- still no regrets- he's an amazing dog.
> If I had it to do over again, I would certainly have looked into other breeders.
> You are very lucky to have found this site FIRST!
> It's amazing when I look back to when I first got Simon and now, and the things I have learned...


Welcome to the state of Missouri, LAND OF THE PUPPY MILLS. By chance the Hunt Corp. wasnt were he came from was it?


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## AndyFarmer

Maggies mom said:


> Welcome to the state of Missouri, LAND OF THE PUPPY MILLS. By chance the Hunt Corp. wasnt were he came from was it?


 
eh-hem??? excuse me...one of your favorite breeders is in MO! Not ALL of them are puppy mills....just 99% of them heehehhheeehhee


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## Pointgold

I just looked at the site. I'd take a big fat pass.

The photos on the site are not even his and are copyrighted. The text about the breed has been cut and pasted from other sites. There are no dogs listed in K9 Data or the OFA database other than the Canadian MyGolden's (Helmut Verges - breeder/owner). Nothing with him as breeder or owner.


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## Swampcollie

Looks like a puppy Broker to me. There are similar sites for other breeds as well by the proprietor.

I would look for a puppy elsewhere.


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## Pointgold

Swampcollie said:


> Looks like a puppy Broker to me. There are similar sites for other breeds as well by the proprietor.
> 
> I would look for a puppy elsewhere.


Yup. He is the founder of The Puppy Connection, purveyor of fine puppy mille purebred and designer breeds. :doh:


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## MurphyTeller

cubbysan said:


> I just saw that he told you he had the certifications. Be careful, because some breeders think a vet health certificate is the same thing.


I don't think so - even the worst of the worst and the most dishonest millers and BYBers know what a clearance is - they just count on puppy buyers not to know the difference between a clearance and the phrase "my vet cleared them" or "we did x-rays and they looked fine" or even better "its not in my line".

If suddenly everyone interested in buying a puppy asked for copies of OFA clearances high volume/commercial breeders and BYB'ers would have to start doing health clearances. The thing is that MOST people either don't know to ask for proof or they accept phrases like "my vet cleared them" as proof that the "breeder" has invested in health testing.

Erica


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## Tahnee GR

I have noticed on the AKC site that "breeders" will check the box that all applicable health clearances have been done. But, you can see that that the OFA info does not show up under the parents info, and can't be found in OFA either. 

Either they know they are lying, or they just have no idea what health clearances are required.


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## Doodle

I thought the site looked suspicious when I looked at it, especially compared to other good breeder websites that have been recommended here. I have to admit (somewhat painfully) that my dogs up until now have come from questionable backgrounds (please don't hate me for admitting that!!) :no:, but even with what I thought was pretty good research I guess I didn't really know until I found this forum. I've learned so many things here in the short time since I've joined, one of which is how to recognize and question a truly good breeder. So next time around I'm going to do it right!!!! I guess we learn from our mistakes, right? You guys are awesome and thanks for all the great advice!


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## Tahnee GR

Don't beat yourself up, Doodle! My first 2 dogs came from the shelter and they were wonderful dogs, but died soon after we adopted them, one from encephalitis and the other from distemper. The next 2 came from a local puppy mill (didn't know it back then in the late 60's, early 70's)-they were sick and quite honestly, not right in the head. I think most of us have been there at some point in our dog-owning lives 

After that, I met my mentor in Goldens and that was all she wrote


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## cubbysan

MurphyTeller said:


> I don't think so - even the worst of the worst and the most dishonest millers and BYBers know what a clearance is - they just count on puppy buyers not to know the difference between a clearance and the phrase "my vet cleared them" or "we did x-rays and they looked fine" or even better "its not in my line".
> 
> If suddenly everyone interested in buying a puppy asked for copies of OFA clearances high volume/commercial breeders and BYB'ers would have to start doing health clearances. The thing is that MOST people either don't know to ask for proof or they accept phrases like "my vet cleared them" as proof that the "breeder" has invested in health testing.
> 
> Erica


 
Sorry for using the term "breeder" so loosely. I know respectable breeders know the difference, but a lot of the BYBers don't.

My eleven year old has been trying to convince me to buy her a Pomeranian (if I get another dog, it will be another GR). Everytime she thinks she has found a website for a good breeder, I prove to her where they go wrong. It is amazing how the puppymillers sugar coat everything. She has yet to find one that looks like they are doing everything right.


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## Riley's Mom

I would not buy a puppy from this guy. He is a broker. I have actually met a puppy that was purchased from him. The guy told me the puppy came from a breeder in PA. He gets way to much for these puppies. You could easily get a puppy from a reputable breeder for less money. 
RUN RUN RUN from this guy!!!


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## tippykayak

This is about the time that the "breeder" in question shows up on the thread to threaten us all with a lawsuit. I'm buying some bottled water, duct tape, and canned food so I can hunker down and wait out the storm.


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## Sqwumpkin

Pointgold said:


> Ask him for the registered name of the sire and dam. They can then be looked up on the OFA database site. If he will not provide them, tell him "Thanks, but no thanks."


This is A BIG FAT LIE, and Pointgold knows it. Do I have to quote another of pointgold's post to prove it?

There is no requirement of breeders to list their CERF or SAS clearances in any OFA database.

Come on Pointgold. Stop with the half-truths.


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## Sqwumpkin

Doodle, I'm just curious -- what draws you to this particular breeder?


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## Sqwumpkin

Doodle said:


> I thought the site looked suspicious when I looked at it, especially compared to other *good* breeder websites that have been recommended here. I have to admit (somewhat painfully) that my dogs up until now have come from questionable backgrounds (please don't hate me for admitting that!!) :no:, but even with what I thought was pretty good research I guess I didn't really know until I found this forum. I've learned so many things here in the short time since I've joined, one of which is how to recognize and question a truly good breeder. So next time around I'm going to do it right!!!! I guess we learn from our mistakes, right? You guys are awesome and thanks for all the great advice!


Another set-up. Let the bloviators go off on another establishment.

Hey! Who can we bad-mouth next? This is so much fun.


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## Jo Ellen

Bloviator -- I had to look that up! 

*blo·vi·ate* (bl














v







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t







) 
_intr.v._ *blo·vi·at·ed*, *blo·vi·at·ing*, *blo·vi·ates* _Slang_ To discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner

Doodle, I would venture to say that most of us here have dogs from "questionable" backgrounds ... and they are great dogs, mine being one. We learn as we go


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## Pointgold

Sqwumpkin said:


> This is A BIG FAT LIE, and Pointgold knows it. Do I have to quote another of pointgold's post to prove it?
> 
> There is no requirement of breeders to list their CERF or SAS clearances in any OFA database.
> 
> Come on Pointgold. Stop with the half-truths.


 
No, Patrick, it is not a lie at all. While it is true that there is no _requirement_ to list clearances on the OFA database, if the breeder has said that their dogs have CERF, SAS, OFA clearances, etc, they will be listed on the OFA site UNLESS the breeder has requested that they not be. Now, why, if a dog clears, would a breeder not want them to be? And why, if a dog is clear would a breeder not want to show proof of this?
And why, speaking of lies, have you not been honest with the members here on this forum?


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## Pointgold

Sqwumpkin said:


> Another set-up. Let the bloviators go off on another establishment.
> 
> Hey! Who can we bad-mouth next? This is so much fun.


 
Patrick, do you support brokering puppies?


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## WLR

Here we go...
Time to lock & load.


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## Pointgold

WLR said:


> Here we go...
> Time to lock & load.


Seriously. No matter what _any_one here on GRF says in regards to responsible breeding, Mr. Bitterville takes exception to it. And seems to focus his vitriol on certain members. Yet, when he is asked valid questions, he disappears until he sees his next opportunity to step in and launch another assault.


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## Gwen

Doodle said:


> I thought the site looked suspicious when I looked at it, especially compared to other good breeder websites that have been recommended here. I have to admit (somewhat painfully) that my dogs up until now have come from questionable backgrounds (please don't hate me for admitting that!!) :no:, but even with what I thought was pretty good research I guess I didn't really know until I found this forum. I've learned so many things here in the short time since I've joined, one of which is how to recognize and question a truly good breeder. So next time around I'm going to do it right!!!! I guess we learn from our mistakes, right? You guys are awesome and thanks for all the great advice!



"We learn from our mistakes!!!" What's important is that you did learn & you're doing it right this time! Congratulations!!!!!!


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## Swampcollie

Sqwumpkin,
I'll make an assumption that you're in the U.S.

There is this little organization called the GRCA (Golden Retriever Club of America). They are the Parent Club for the Breed in the U.S.. They are the keepers of the Breed Standard in the U.S. as well as overseeing other issues involving the Breed. The GRCA has written and adopted a Code of Ethics that Breeders and Fanciers are to follow. It isn't much, common sense mostly, but people either adhere to the COE or they don't. 

It's really that simple. 

People (Breeders) that don't adhere to the minimum standards of practice outlined in the COE are likely going to be blasted on the message boards, this one and others.


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## Pointgold

Well, Swampcollie, some breeders subscribe to their own COE.
Personally, I wouldn't purchase a puppy without seeing the OFA,, CERF, and SAS "titles" _first. _


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## Sophie's slave

And the citizen of Bitterville weighs in...


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## Swampcollie

Pointgold said:


> Well, Swampcollie, some breeders subscribe to their own COE.


Every Breeder has their own personal COE and hopefully it meets or exceeds the GRCA specified minimums. 

Come on folks how hard can it be to have the Hips, Eyes, Heart and Elbows checked out so you at least have some idea what you're dealing with. 



Pointgold said:


> Personally, I wouldn't purchase a puppy without seeing the OFA,, CERF, and SAS "titles" _first. _


Those aren't "Titles".  (But I think you knew that  :wave Those are Health Clearance Certification designations and are easily verified On-Line through the OFA and CERF search engines. Registration and Competition Information can be accessed through the AKC website (although they may charge a fee for this service).

The available information in the online data bases make it real easy to sort out which Breeders are blowing smoke and those which play by the rules and are up front and honest with people. 

Always, *ALWAYS* look at the Breeders Contract before selecting a breeder or purchasing a puppy. You can weed out 99% of the bad apples if you take the time to look over the contract. If you don't like what you see, go elsewhere.


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## Pointgold

Swampcollie said:


> Those aren't "Titles".  (But I think you knew that  :wave


They aren't?  But -

*It is our breeding objective to produce intelligent, calm, and healthy Golden Retrievers - ones that are easy for you to train, great to have as companions, and healthy. This is how the breed is supposed to be!* To accomplish this, we breed only healthy and obedient adult Golden Retrievers, like _____above, who earn obedience titles, not beauty pageant or hunting titles. Moms and dads of our puppies have their OFA, CERF, and SAS titles, too. Original documents are here for you to view, and we provide copies of these certifications to you when you purchase a puppy from _______.


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## Lucky's mom

There are a vast number of puppy for profit breeders out there... This particular breeder has made it pretty clear that he is one. 

I don't see the point of going from website to website, classified ad to classified ad and spending time trashing them one by one. I think it makes more sense to have a generic sticky that talks about what you should look for for the best quality puppy. 

If the website is dishonest then that's a whole other thing...in that case I think it a good thing to pick it apart and clarify things.


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## Pointgold

The person the original inquiry in this thread was about is a broker. A broker purchases litters and sells them. Brokering is expressly prohibited by the parent clubs of nearly every breed. It is a despicable practice, in that there is no way that the breeders would know where their puppies are going, although breeders who sell to brokers only care about the check in their hand.
Our friend Sqwumpkin, it would seem, thinks that brokering puppies is okay to do, unless he simply dove into the thread without reading it because he saw that his usual targets were contributing and couldn't pass up a chance to post something bitter.

There are so many websites out there that would, on the surface, appear to be terrific breeders. So someone coming here with inquiries is a good way to get input about them and to get help in doing the necessary checking if they don't know how.


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## Swampcollie

Lucky's mom said:


> If the website is dishonest then that's a whole other thing...in that case I think it a good thing to pick it apart and clarify things.


The AKC keeps records of Registrations, Litters and in the case of competitions or other events, Titles, Qualifying Scores or Passes. 
When a Breeder states that a dog or dogs have earned qualifications or titles in a given venue, and that dog is not found to exist in the AKC database, what would you call it? 

When a Breeder clearly states that a dog or dogs have cleared CERF, and the CERF database shows no record whatsoever of the dog or dogs existance, what would you call it?

To me things don't look too good and I would be wary of doing business with such a Breeder.


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## Pointgold

Swampcollie said:


> The AKC keeps records of Registrations, Litters and in the case of competitions or other events, Titles, Qualifying Scores or Passes.
> When a Breeder states that a dog or dogs have earned qualifications or titles in a given venue, and that dog is not found to exist in the AKC database, what would you call it?
> 
> When a Breeder clearly states that a dog or dogs have cleared CERF, and the CERF database shows no record whatsoever of the dog or dogs existance, what would you call it?
> 
> To me things don't look too good and I would be wary of doing business with such a Breeder.


 
*Companion Dog: *The letters CD may be added after a dog's name when it has been certified by 3 different judges to have received qualifying scores in Novice classes at 3 licensed or member obedience trials.

In addition to the dog not being listed in the AKC database, it states on the website that the obedience title was earned by winning 1st place in _two_ separate competitions.


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## Doodle

Pointgold said:


> The person the original inquiry in this thread was about is a broker.


Hi everyone. I've been away for a few days without internet access, and I just wanted to jump in here and say that I did email that breeder (the original advertiser in question) to ask him about his breeding practices. He did respond to me and tell me that he is a broker, not a breeder, and that if I wanted any other information to please call him. So he at least was upfront about that. 

I originally asked about him because his ad that runs on this site caught my attention because he is local to where I live. 

Thanks again to everyone for their input and for helping me to learn how to find a good and reputable breeder.


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## Lucky's mom

Swampcollie said:


> The AKC keeps records of Registrations, Litters and in the case of competitions or other events, Titles, Qualifying Scores or Passes.
> When a Breeder states that a dog or dogs have earned qualifications or titles in a given venue, and that dog is not found to exist in the AKC database, what would you call it?
> 
> When a Breeder clearly states that a dog or dogs have cleared CERF, and the CERF database shows no record whatsoever of the dog or dogs existance, what would you call it?
> 
> To me things don't look too good and I would be wary of doing business with such a Breeder.


Well that is what I mean by dishonest. I haven't seen that on the website posted. There doesn't seem to be much of anything on that website but "puppies for sale". But maybe I missed it.


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## Lucky's mom

Pointgold said:


> Our friend Sqwumpkin, it would seem, thinks that brokering puppies is okay to do, unless he simply dove into the thread without reading it because he saw that his usual targets were contributing and couldn't pass up a chance to post something bitter.
> .


Well.....I personally don't have a vendetta against brokers. I DO think it is OK to do. Its a legit upfront business. At least they have to follow some sort of standard. No, I wouldn't SUGGEST that its the best way to buy a puppy. But to assume that we will live in a world where only high-end breeders supply puppies is silly.

I do have a vendetta against people who breeds unhealthy pups, sell them in the newspaper or classified ads online and then disappear off the face of the earth....


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## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> Well.....I personally don't have a vendetta against brokers. I DO think it is OK to do. Its a legit upfront business. At least they have to follow some sort of standard. No, I wouldn't SUGGEST that its the best way to buy a puppy. But to assume that we will live in a world where only high-end breeders supply puppies is silly.
> 
> I do have a vendetta against people who breeds unhealthy pups, sell them in the newspaper or classified ads online and then disappear off the face of the earth....


 
Brokers as a rule purchase their puppies from puppy mills. They pay low end for them, and don't purchase from breeders who are doing health clearances (those puppies would cost too much). They may also buy litters from BYB types who can't sell what they have. Again, at a low price. The brokers then price the same puppies at upwards of $1000.00. 
So, "low end" puppies end up being very "high end" puppies sold out of pet stores and via online "Puppy4Sale" sites.


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## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> Well that is what I mean by dishonest. I haven't seen that on the website posted. There doesn't seem to be much of anything on that website but "puppies for sale". But maybe I missed it.


 
I believe that he was referring to a site other than the one questioned by the OP.


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## Lucky's mom

Pointgold said:


> Brokers as a rule purchase their puppies from puppy mills. They pay low end for them, and don't purchase from breeders who are doing health clearances (those puppies would cost too much). They may also buy litters from BYB types who can't sell what they have. Again, at a low price. The brokers then price the same puppies at upwards of $1000.00.
> So, "low end" puppies end up being very "high end" puppies sold out of pet stores and via online "Puppy4Sale" sites.


Brokers buy from commercial breeders that must have certain standards in place. They aren't "high-end" standards....but they are heck of a lot better then what we see on PETA.

Brokers have to have veterninary personel on staff and they must broker consistantly healthy puppies to be in business in the long-term.

Some brokers DO have puppies that have health certifications and even champion titles. I know that for a fact. 

Geeze this isn't to say I think they are good sources. But to some people they can end up being better sources then other alternatives.

I don't understand the high-prices....but look I paid $150 for Lucky. Did I get a better bargain? No, I almost lost him. So price isn't the issue in my opinion...its the health of the puppies.


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## Pointgold

*From No Puppy Mills*















A broker is the "middle man." They are the ones who buy a puppy from a miller and sell the pup to the pet store, another broker, or directly to the public. A broker will buy a puppy for say $120 from a miller (why millers breed so many puppies - they get little from the pup). Then the broker will sell the pup to a pet shop for a profit. Then the pet shop will sell the puppy to the public for even more. Say a pet shop sells a Shetland Sheepdog pup for $800.00. The miller gets $120 from the broker for every Sheltie sold. In order to make $800.00, the miller has to sell to the broker 7 - 8 Sheltie pups. 
Brokers may frequent *Auctions* to find puppies to sell as well as breeding stock to sell back to millers.
How can you tell a broker? Well, look for puppies being sold that were not bred by them. This is the first cue. However, some good breeders will work in conjunction with other breeders and may take puppies as stud fee and if the pup does not grow out as hoped, it will be sold as a pet. But brokers regularly sell puppies they do not breed. 
Use the same questions and guide you would use for helping determine if a breeder is a miller or not. 
​


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## Ljilly28

Swampcollie said:


> The AKC keeps records of Registrations, Litters and in the case of competitions or other events, Titles, Qualifying Scores or Passes.
> When a Breeder states that a dog or dogs have earned qualifications or titles in a given venue, and that dog is not found to exist in the AKC database, what would you call it?
> 
> When a Breeder clearly states that a dog or dogs have cleared CERF, and the CERF database shows no record whatsoever of the dog or dogs existance, what would you call it?


Fraud, is what I would call it.


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## Ljilly28

Lucky'sMom, do you think that this is trying to look like a breeder? http://yoursheltie.com/

Do you think a puppy broker is going work with breeders who produce healthy puppies of all different breeds and doodles too? How will they know so many wonderful breeders of healthy, but not high end, pups that well?


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## Swampcollie

Ljilly28 said:


> Fraud, is what I would call it.


It kind looks that way to me as well.


LM, 

Whether you choose to believe a Broker is legitemate or not depends greatly upon your point of view. If because they offer a product and deliver it for the advertised price, pay their bills and taxes, you wish to regard them as legitimate, that's one point of view.

If on the other hand you view the fact that a broker buys litters for the lowest rock bottom price, from whoever will provide them at that price, and turns around an sells them to pet shops or to an unsuspecting public at a high price, you may have a different point of view. 

Typically brokers sell what would be a $150 to $200 puppy for $800 to $1,000 or more. They command that price because there is still a large segment of the marketplace that wants an "Instant Puppy" on demand. The buyers of that "Instant Puppy" don't realize that their nice new fluffy puppy came from that horrible filthy PA puppy mill that they saw on the evening news. That broker in the middle of the transaction cleans up the transaction so they don't know where the puppy came from, unless they really put forth the effort to do the research to find out. 

I guess I have a very hard time calling a broker legitemate that sells inferior quality animals to the public at prices inflated to four or more times their actuall worth. To me that individual is dancing on the edges of legal behavior, being carefull not to step too far into the grey area where they'll face fraud charges.


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## Lucky's mom

I suppose what I am saying is that Brokers must adhere to certain standards. One of those standards is general health. They deal from commercial breeders and facilitties that MUST be usda licensed.

The animal welfare act is an important part of Broker and commercial breeder licensing and they can lose their license and pay big fines if they have too many infractions. We had a breeder get put out of business here in Tulsa for infractions. 

The internet especially can make selling sick puppies a more common practice if we didn't have brokers. 

Sometimes I think people react not knowing what the outcome would be. To put brokers out of business will bring opportunity to the more shadey charactors out there. Obviously I'm the only person who see's it this way....but I'm looking at it logically, not emotionally.

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/puppymil.html


USDA licenses more than 4500 animal dealers, the bulk of them dealing in wholesale breeding and distribution of dogs and cats. *The AWA does not cover commercial breeders who sell directly to the public, and many animal welfare advocates believe that additional regulations are needed to assure buyers that breeding dogs and puppies are treated properly in these kennels.* Some states have passed kennel licensing and inspection laws, but several attempts to amend the federal AWA have failed because they placed a huge burden on responsible breeders.


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## Pointgold

Brokers selling dog with championship titles are generally those who are Import/Export brokers, and again, are selling those dog (who as a rule have not cleared one or more of the health clearances) for exhorbitantly inflated prices. 
Go to any National Specialty - there are always brokers lurking around. Is it "legit"? I suppose that technically and legally it is (at least some of them) but is against the GRCA Code of Ethics to sell dogs at auction, to brokers, or commercial dealers. (This is true of all parent clubs.) What caring breeder would not insist on knowing the people who buy their puppies????? And as reputable and responsible breeders insist on the return of dogs that they have bred if they are unable to stay with the buyer for any reason, how could that happen if sold to a broker?

Brokers don't always identify themselves as being a broker. They also pull all sorts of tricks, in addition to selling puppies in lots to commercial retailers. One of their favorites is to advertise in the paper or on sites like Craigslist, with some pitch like "I paid $2000 for him, and was going to show him, but my wife is so allergic to him she is covered in hives. I'll sell him for $1500." (he paid $100) or "I'm helping my sick friend who had the litter. The mother died, and between losing her girl and being sick, my friend just needed help". Selling price is $800 -1000, he paid $100).

I really cannot see _any_thing that would make any broker "legit", and to condone what they do is helping millers and other high volume breeders to continue mass producing genetically unsound dogs.

USDA licensing and the "standards" that they supposedly make these people adhere to is, for the most part, a joke.


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## Jo Ellen

I think my biggest (not my only) but my biggest grievance against brokers is the indiscriminate placement of pets. Though I suppose selling at such high prices might alleviate at least some of the bottom layer of pet owners, I still think responsible and thoughtful placement is every bit as important as health.

On the other hand, I'm not sure a very responsible breeder would have placed a puppy with me when I was looking...if they had asked the right questions and I didn't lie. As it was, there were no questions. It was a huge gamble for Daisy, but it turned out to be the best thing for both of us. 

I'm just thinking out loud ... I guess what I'm saying is that being sold at ridiculously inflated prices is not the worst thing that can happen to a puppy. Even certain health issues are manageable with love and care, and resources ... but bad or irresponsible placement is a tragedy for any dog.


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## Pointgold

A person paying ridiculously high, inflated prices for a poorly bred dog, such as those dealt by brokers, is wrong. The chances of there being health and temperament issues is expnentially increased. And there is no restitution for the buyers.

I'm sure this looks familiar to our MO members who work in rescue. These are dogs who produce the puppies destined to be brokered to commercial retailers, and internet Puppy4$ale sites.


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## Lucky's mom

Well ALL I"M TRYING TO POINT OUT...is that if you ban or put out of business what is already regulated, then you have sicker puppies and even more sad stories. Because these puppy buyers aren't going away. They will get puppies from _somewhere_.

The sad stories will start coming as unregulated breeders fill the hole in the supply which will result in more broadbased expensive and perhaps federal regulation and licensing of _all breeders_. Even responsible breeders will take the brunt and the expense as we try to "solve" this new problem. Probably resulting in even less responsible breeders. And sicker puppies as people get even more shady.

Ok...take it or leave it. I'm done I suppose.


----------



## Ljilly28

I know puppies are not human babies BUT, to me some of the ethics apply. Selling babies is obviously illegal and immoral(though it is often done). While a puppy is not a baby, it is not a piece of furniture either. A breeder who cares and finds it difficult to part with puppies and stays in touch is much different than a broker who only experiences puppies as merchandise.


----------



## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> Well ALL I"M TRYING TO POINT OUT...is that if you ban or put out of business what is already regulated, then you have sicker puppies and even more sad stories. Because these puppy buyers aren't going away. They will get puppies from _somewhere_.
> 
> The sad stories will start coming as unregulated breeders fill the hole in the supply which will result in more broadbased expensive and perhaps federal regulation and licensing of _all breeders_. Even responsible breeders will take the brunt and the expense as we try to "solve" this new problem. Probably resulting in even less responsible breeders. And sicker puppies as people get even more shady.
> 
> Ok...take it or leave it. I'm done I suppose.


I do get that. The problem is that the laws are rarely enforced. And the standards set for these operations are abysmally minimal. 
The ones who really suffer, as you state, are the truly responsible breeders. All of this is by design, thank you PETA and H$U$.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Pointgold said:


> I do get that. The problem is that the laws are rarely enforced. And the standards set for these operations are abysmally minimal.
> The ones who really suffer, as you state, are the truly responsible breeders. All of this is by design, thank you PETA and H$U$.


I agree with you 100% on this! And with that I will do my best to shush.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Doodle said:


> He did respond to me and tell me that he is a broker, not a breeder, and that if I wanted any other information to please call him. So he at least was upfront about that.


I'm glad he was honest with you...I see once again posters are not taking a breath to read what the OP has posted and just ran right over the reply!!! 

Good Luck in finding a pup Doodle!

Good night folks...


----------



## Shalva

Ljilly28 said:


> Fraud, is what I would call it.



ok let me just say one thing.... 

I dont always send in my CERF forms.... I own the bitch... I give a copy of the CERF form to all of my puppy people as well as the copies of the ofa certifications.... on both the sire and the dam of the litter... not that I breed very often.... 

I know of VERY VERY reputable breeders who don't send in the form for the heart clearance and many many who like me don't send in the cerf form.... yet they have the cardiologist signed form that they keep and will happily show anyone that asks.... ditto to the CERF form that the opthalmologist fills out... 

its fraud if they say they have the clearance but never had the exam and are lying... 

its not fraud if they have the clearance form in front of you and have just refrained from sending CERF 15 Bucks for a number.... 

the fact is that they have the clearance.... the number might not be generated but they did what a reputable breeder has to do.... I wouldn't call it fraud... I might call it lazy.... in my case I would call it cheap...


----------



## Pointgold

If a radiograph is not sent to OFA, there is no OFA clearance. CERF is another story, as is a Cardiologist exam. I simply don't see why any breeder _wouldn't_ send them in, it's a one time fee for hips/elbow, and cardiac, and as for CERF, consecutive re-certs are only 7 bucks. It would certainly eliminate any speculation of "fraud", and possibly save you losing puppy sales in the long run. As for not providing documentation of any clearances until you purchase a puppy, that's ridiculous. I want to see those clearances as part of making the decision _to _purchase.

How about claiming titles on dogs that aren't even in the registry database?


----------



## Doodle

Kimm said:


> I'm glad he was honest with you...I see once again posters are not taking a breath to read what the OP has posted and just ran right over the reply!!!
> 
> Good Luck in finding a pup Doodle!


Yes he was honest about that. And in the short time I've been a part of this forum, I understand that the enthusiastic discussions that sometimes occur are the result of people's passion and love for the dogs. And I think that's great. 

From what I have learned, my preference for my next pup would be to work with a great breeder. My first dog Chip came from a backyard breeder, and he was a wonderful and healthy dog until he developed mast cell cancer at the age of 10. Our current dog, Brady, came from a broker. He is also a wonderful dog. He has had some minor health issues (allergies, loose stool, panosteitis...all things that have been resolved) but so far nothing major in the grand scheme of things. I will admit, however, knowing what I know now, not knowing his family history, so to speak, makes me wonder what's down the road in terms of health issues. But, whatever they may be, we will take them in stride and do whatever we can to keep him healthy because he is a member of our family. 

As for when/if we will get a second pup, we are still considering this. We want to make sure we have the time and resources to love and care for both of them properly.

Thanks again to everyone for their heartfelt input.


----------



## Ljilly28

Shalva said:


> ok let me just say one thing....
> 
> I dont always send in my CERF forms.... I own the bitch... I give a copy of the CERF form to all of my puppy people as well as the copies of the ofa certifications.... on both the sire and the dam of the litter... not that I breed very often....
> 
> I know of VERY VERY reputable breeders who don't send in the form for the heart clearance and many many who like me don't send in the cerf form.... yet they have the cardiologist signed form that they keep and will happily show anyone that asks.... ditto to the CERF form that the opthalmologist fills out...
> 
> its fraud if they say they have the clearance but never had the exam and are lying...
> 
> its not fraud if they have the clearance form in front of you and have just refrained from sending CERF 15 Bucks for a number....
> 
> the fact is that they have the clearance.... the number might not be generated but they did what a reputable breeder has to do.... I wouldn't call it fraud... I might call it lazy.... in my case I would call it cheap...


Well, this goes without saying. It's just fraud to claim your CH dog has Hips good when the dog never won even one point and had no xrays, lol.


----------



## Lucky's mom

Doodle said:


> Yes he was honest about that. And in the short time I've been a part of this forum, I understand that the enthusiastic discussions that sometimes occur are the result of people's passion and love for the dogs. And I think that's great.
> 
> From what I have learned, my preference for my next pup would be to work with a great breeder.


That is something I would want to do also. I believe it would be a wonderful experience and well worth the money to work with a person passionate about the breed and someone who is truely concerned about the well-being of the puppies. That is what I don't get about brokers...you pay more and get less.


----------



## Sophie's slave

Pointgold said:


> A person paying ridiculously high, inflated prices for a poorly bred dog, such as those dealt by brokers, is wrong. The chances of there being health and temperament issues is expnentially increased. And there is no restitution for the buyers.
> 
> I'm sure this looks familiar to our MO members who work in rescue. These are dogs who produce the puppies destined to be brokered to commercial retailers, and internet Puppy4$ale sites.


This picture could have been from any number of puppy mills here in Oklahoma. We're right up there with Missouri and Pennsylvania when it comes to poor animal welfare legislation and oversight of "breeders". And having USDA oversight means nothing...once a year, haphazard visits. I worked for a university here in Tulsa that uses mice and rats for biological research and the USDA oversight was a joke, made by appointment. It's the same with the millers and people who sell poorly bred, sick puppies along 71st street and in the Walmart parking lot - no oversight. For goodness sake, our city shelter still gasses animals...Oklahoma is not exactly at the forefront of animal welfare.


----------



## cprcheetah

For me if they have health clearances, you would think they would be proud of that fact and either list them on their website or the link to the OFA Results site. I would be anyways. I think a 'reputable' breeder does do all of the health tests as they wouldn't want to pass anything on to their puppies. That is JMHO. I have raised Standard Poodles and Westies (in the past), and always had the clearances on my websites, as well as gave copies of the certificates to the puppy buyers.


----------



## AndyFarmer

Pointgold said:


> A person paying ridiculously high, inflated prices for a poorly bred dog, such as those dealt by brokers, is wrong. The chances of there being health and temperament issues is expnentially increased. And there is no restitution for the buyers.
> 
> I'm sure this looks familiar to our MO members who work in rescue. These are dogs who produce the puppies destined to be brokered to commercial retailers, and internet Puppy4$ale sites.


I personally haven't walked up to anything like this, but if I had, I would probably vomit and be enraged...but I know its out there and its disgusting.


----------



## Sqwumpkin

Pointgold said:


> No, Patrick, it is not a lie at all. While it is true that there is no _requirement_ to list clearances on the OFA database, if the breeder has said that their dogs have CERF, SAS, OFA clearances, etc, they will be listed on the OFA site UNLESS the breeder has requested that they not be. Now, why, if a dog clears, would a breeder not want them to be? And why, if a dog is clear would a breeder not want to show proof of this?
> And why, speaking of lies, have you not been honest with the members here on this forum?


Dude... more misinformation.

Breeders do not have to request that SAS and CERF clearances NOT be entered in the database. Quite the contrary. A $15.00 fee must be paid to have each clearance added.

I thought about you during my son's baseball game today.

There are those out there in the world who know every stat about every pro team. Every player. Every ball park. They can recite all the rules. All the regulations about the game. 

But you know what? These are the types who have NEVER played the game. they will never know what it's like to field a hard charging ground ball. Or feel the thrill of hitting a double. All they have are facts and figures to hide the fact that they don't know diddly about the real game.

That's when it dawned on me, amigo. How many litters of puppies have you ever produced? How many clearances have you ever registered? My guess is between 1 and 5 in your long-in-the-tooth life. And how could you breed when you're sitting in front of your computer all day spewing half truths to people who don't know better.

And each time you do, I'll be here to pointgold it out.

And there you go again with that insane "we know who you are" routine. What breeder/former poster am I this month, pray tell? Everyone who points out your mistakes has some sinister, conspiratorial reason for being here. Have you been to a doctor about that mental condition?

And here's another question for you. How come I never see you post in the threads here where people with sick, newborn puppies need experienced breeders to weigh in on urgent matters?


----------



## Sqwumpkin

Pointgold said:


> Patrick, do you support brokering puppies?


Why would you ask me this question when my only posts in this thread have been to pointgold your misinformation?

Here in the US, people are free to do as they please w/in the bounds of the law. I make no judgement of the establishment mentioned by the OP. 

In my family's 50 year experience raising GSDs, we have chosen to not participate in such practices.


----------



## Sqwumpkin

Swampcollie said:


> Sqwumpkin,
> I'll make an assumption that you're in the U.S.
> 
> There is this little organization called the GRCA (Golden Retriever Club of America). They are the Parent Club for the Breed in the U.S.. They are the keepers of the Breed Standard in the U.S. as well as overseeing other issues involving the Breed. The GRCA has written and adopted a Code of Ethics that Breeders and Fanciers are to follow. It isn't much, common sense mostly, but people either adhere to the COE or they don't.
> 
> It's really that simple.
> 
> People (Breeders) that don't adhere to the minimum standards of practice outlined in the COE are likely going to be blasted on the message boards, this one and others.


More misinformation. 

So your beloved GRCA is a registry and guarantees buyers that a puppy is a purebred Golden Retriever?

The GRCA is a breed club. Much like Schutzhund USA. The real breed standard is maintained by the AKC. Don't believe me? how much could you sell your GRCA puppies for w/out AKC registration papers?

So the GRCA issues all the confirmation, hunting and obedience titles too? (for those who are new to the dog world, like Swampcollie, it's the AKC who does those things, not the GRCA.)

W/regards to the best practices published by the GRCA -- it's not like they developed them. They looked at what better breeders like my family - who show and compete at a world level (I don't, others in my family do. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back) -- are doing. One might argue they, ahem, *brokered* their own standard. That is, they took it from someone else and passed it off as their own.


----------



## Doolin

Oh SQWUMPKIN you are so far past being a legitimate part of this forum. Not only are you not brave enough to admit to whom you are, you have the audacity to look down upon the GRCA. I am very amused by your posts about you GSD operation, once again you have no legitimacy as you cannot back up your claims. 

Next you go and try to question PG and her background in goldens DON'T. My gosh, your claims are so ignorant that you have become even more comical here. One well bred thoughtout litter is worth more to this breed then all of yours put together. I mean please Patrick don't be so defensive, step up to the plate.

There are a lot of people who think they are pro baseball players because the rode the bench in HS and think that made them part of the game. Just being along for the ride you claim your family takes in GSD(what a joke) doesn't make you part of that game either.

And we don't think of you as only sinister, immature is another word that comes to mind. All of us here aren't afraid of who we are, we're proud of what we are accomplishing.


----------



## nixietink

Sqwumpkin said:


> Everyone who points out your mistakes has some sinister, conspiratorial reason for being here. Have you been to a doctor about that mental condition?


I really try to stay out of Sqwumpkin threads, but, wow...that is COMPLETELY uncalled for. How rude can you be?? 



Sqwumpkin said:


> And here's another question for you. How come I never see you post in the threads here where people with sick, newborn puppies need experienced breeders to weigh in on urgent matters?


You OBVIOUSLY do not read other threads. Laura has been an amazing help to MANY members on this forum. I believe she even recently gave a new member her phone number to support the whelping of his bitch's litter. Some examples for you...

http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56734

http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56669

http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56378

http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56227


----------



## Pointgold

This is beyond laughable, actually. Will I _ever _apologize for not pumping out mediocre, at best, litter after litter? Nope. Will I defend the litters that I have produced, and had success with in many venues to the the likes of "Sqwumpkin"? Nope. I don't try to hide who I am or what I have done, and those who know me know the truth.

It really is notable that our friend never addresses any of the valid questions that have been posed to him, but instead, chooses to attack and malign those who ask it, all the while complaining that they are "misinformed".


----------



## Pointgold

nixietink said:


> I really try to stay out of Sqwumpkin threads, but, wow...that is COMPLETELY uncalled for. How rude can you be??
> 
> 
> 
> You OBVIOUSLY do not read other threads. Laura has been an amazing help to MANY members on this forum. I believe she even recently gave a new member her phone number to support the whelping of his bitch's litter. Some examples for you...
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56734
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56669
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56378
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56227


No, it would appear that Sqwumpkin only looks for posts that I have made as relates to breeding practices so that he can spew his bitter and ill-informed rhetoric. It's sad to me (and maybe scary?) that he would be thinking about me while at his son's baseball game. That sort of obsession is rarely healthy.


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

OMG...I've known Swampcollie for years and let me just say this, he knows how to put a title on a dog! Ack! And Laura, PG, knows more about breeding than is listed. She's a trainer and Judge, too! Double ACK!


----------



## buckeyegoldenmom

nixietink said:


> I really try to stay out of Sqwumpkin threads, but, wow...that is COMPLETELY uncalled for. How rude can you be??
> 
> 
> 
> You OBVIOUSLY do not read other threads. Laura has been an amazing help to MANY members on this forum. I believe she even recently gave a new member her phone number to support the whelping of his bitch's litter. Some examples for you...
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56734
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56669
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56378
> 
> http://goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=56227



I completely agree. Sqwumpkin, your posts go too far. They are offensive.


----------



## Pointgold

Kimm said:


> OMG...I've known Swampcollie for years and let me just say this, he knows how to put a title on a dog! Ack! And Laura, PG, knows more about breeding than is listed. She's a trainer and Judge, too! Double ACK!


 
Yes, but Kimm - Swampcollie does _hunting _titles, and I do _confirmation _(sic per Sqwumpie) titles. HIS dogs "earn obedience titles, not beauty pageant or hunting titles. Moms and dads of our puppies have their OFA, CERF, and SAS titles, too". 
We are the ruination of the breed, dontcha know.


----------



## Ljilly28

PG's excellent breeding record is public information, an easlily accessible and well-documented point of pride. There is no way a semi-anonymous heckler can have any credibility it criticizing her for not being a high volume breeder. Every time one of my pet dogs has faced an illness, PG has privately sent wise words and thoughtful opinions in a caring way. She battled a puppy mill and won; she's handled many different breeds at venues like Westminster. I feel lucky to have someone on that level willing to participate with me- a pet owner. It's one of the coolest things about GRF: the way experts in rescue, breeding, showing, training mix with lifelong dog lovers who have streetsmart wisdom and brand new novice owners. Hecklers add entertainment in some cases or irritation in others, but they just seem like loose cannons attacking members like Ambika or PG for not breeding enough litters.


----------



## tippykayak

Sqwumpkin said:


> Everyone who points out your mistakes has some sinister, conspiratorial reason for being here. Have you been to a doctor about that mental condition?


Hey mods,

This is a nasty personal attack. While I hate to see threads about interesting subjects closed when one person makes it his business to ruin a polite conversation, I see a clear violation of forum rules (as well as general human decency) here.

Thanks for taking a gander!


----------



## MurphyTeller

Doolin said:


> Oh SQWUMPKIN you are so far past being a legitimate part of this forum. Not only are you not brave enough to admit to whom you are, you have the audacity to look down upon the GRCA. I am very amused by your posts about you GSD operation, once again you have no legitimacy as you cannot back up your claims.


I was away for the weekend so I'm only catching up....I though Sqummy was banned months ago - now it's back?

On the discussion point here, I've found PG and SwampCollie to be incredibly patient and considerate when debating topics. They are very passionate about their dogs and the breed - and by that very fact they and many of us have to agree to disagree from time to time - but they also hold themselves to a standard of conduct and respect that Squamkin has not shown to anyone else on this forum. 

Erica


----------



## Shalva

Ljilly28 said:


> Well, this goes without saying. It's just fraud to claim your CH dog has Hips good when the dog never won even one point and had no xrays, lol.



the statement you made was about CERF... not hips which I agree requires the OFA, OVC or BVA to determine... however you commented about hips and I will tell you that I know many reputable breeders that don't send in the cardiologist form (I do) or the CERF forms... but provide them to anyone that asks for them.


----------



## Ljilly28

Shalva said:


> the statement you made was about CERF... not hips which I agree requires the OFA, OVC or BVA to determine... however you commented about hips and I will tell you that I know many reputable breeders that don't send in the cardiologist form (I do) or the CERF forms... but provide them to anyone that asks for them.


No- I was just trying to make a joke/ faux witty answer to Swampcollie's general rhetorical question, not say anything about cerf. Swampcollie was using cerf as a "for example" to make his larger point and also talking about fake titles claimed. I made no specific statement about Cerf, but just responded to the general notion of claiming titles or certifications for a dog that do not really exist. 

I have a puppy right here whose parents have all clearances, but the cardiologist form never quite made it to the database, lol. It's in my folder though!

I do agree with you, and there's no difference of opinion or dispute about this. Some very "big" stud dogs have a stray clearances missing, but the owner has it right on her desk; other times, a missing clearances is indicative the dog didnt pass. Have to inquire specifically.

What is fraud is if you claim to have done these tests and received good results, when you never did. If your dog is never xrayed or OFA never sees the Xrays, but you list OFA Hips Good on your websight for the dog - that's fraud IMO. There's a Maine breeder who, unfortunately, does this routinely.


----------



## tippykayak

Sqwumpkin said:


> What breeder/former poster am I this month, pray tell?


I would very much like to hear the real answer to this question. Laura posts on this forum with her real identity, her real dogs, and even her real profession in plain view, easily scrutinized. You claim over and over to be a breeder of world class GSDs, but you hide all the details so you can snipe conversations you don't like from the shadows. And, frankly, your posts are so inconsistent with one another that it strikes me as extremely unlikely that you are who you say you are at any given moment.

My best guess is that you're a relatively high volume Golden Retriever breeder who is upset to hear some practices you think are OK trashed daily on this forum. Perhaps you breed dogs under 2 years with incomplete health certifications, or perhaps you breed too many litters in a year to properly socialize every dog. Perhaps you spend too much time breeding to get Ch's on your dogs or high level obedience and working titles, or perhaps the dogs are simply unsuitable for those titles. Just guessing here.

You posted a link to Liberty Run Goldens early on in your Gordian career here, and their website seems to describe an HVB that both fits my guesses and has many of the characteristics you defend here with such vitriol. So let me ask you flat out so you can put the rumor to bed: are you associated with that kennel?


----------



## Rob's GRs

tippykayak said:


> Hey mods,
> 
> This is a nasty personal attack. While I hate to see threads about interesting subjects closed when one person makes it his business to ruin a polite conversation, I see a clear violation of forum rules (as well as general human decency) here.
> 
> Thanks for taking a gander!


We are watching and reading.....

That being said, we too hate to close very informative threads that can benefit many. Experience, knowledge, opinions, comments and questions are always welcomed in posts such as this. Rudeness, name calling or personal attacks can, or will, have an informative thread like this closed and/or have action taken against any member that will persist on causing problems.


----------



## tippykayak

Rob's GRs said:


> We are watching and reading.....
> 
> That being said, we too hate to close very informative threads that can benefit many. Experience, knowledge, opinions, comments and questions are always welcomed in posts such as this. Rudeness, name calling or personal attacks can, or will, have an informative thread like this closed and/or have action taken against any member that will persist on causing problems.


Thanks! I wasn't asking for the thread to be closed as much as for that second part of what you said...


----------



## Shalva

Ljilly28 said:


> No- I was just trying to make a joke/ faux witty answer to Swampcollie's general rhetorical question, not say anything about cerf. Swampcollie was using cerf as a "for example" to make his larger point and also talking about fake titles claimed. I made no specific statement about Cerf, but just responded to the general notion of claiming titles or certifications for a dog that do not really exist.
> 
> I have a puppy right here whose parents have all clearances, but the cardiologist form never quite made it to the database, lol. It's in my folder though!
> 
> I do agree with you, and there's no difference of opinion or dispute about this. Some very "big" stud dogs have a stray clearances missing, but the owner has it right on her desk; other times, a missing clearances is indicative the dog didnt pass. Have to inquire specifically.
> 
> What is fraud is if you claim to have done these tests and received good results, when you never did. If your dog is never xrayed or OFA never sees the Xrays, but you list OFA Hips Good on your websight for the dog - that's fraud IMO. There's a Maine breeder who, unfortunately, does this routinely.



see thats what I get when I dont read through the whole darned thread... sorry for the misunderstanding.... 

I agree with you absolutely.... 

sorry


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> I would very much like to hear the real answer to this question. Laura posts on this forum with her real identity, her real dogs, and even her real profession in plain view, easily scrutinized. You claim over and over to be a breeder of world class GSDs, but you hide all the details so you can snipe conversations you don't like from the shadows. And, frankly, your posts are so inconsistent with one another that it strikes me as extremely unlikely that you are who you say you are at any given moment.
> 
> My best guess is that you're a relatively high volume Golden Retriever breeder who is upset to hear some practices you think or OK trashed daily on this forum. Perhaps you breed dogs under 2 years with incomplete health certifications, or perhaps you breed too many litters in a year to properly socialize every dog. Perhaps you spend too much time breeding to get Ch's on your dogs or the more challenging obedience and working titles, or perhaps the dogs are simply unsuitable for those titles. Just guessing here.
> 
> You posted a link to Liberty Run Goldens early on in your Gordian career here, and their website seems to describe an HVB that both fits my guesses and has many of the characteristics you defend here with such vitriol. So let me ask you flat out so you can put the rumor to bed: are you associated with that kennel?


 
Th GSD's referred to are Misty Ridge German Shepherds - Joyce DiNenna Burdette. Beautiful dogs. Very few in the OFA database, nor is there anything on her site relating to health issues, but apparently, like Patrick, Ms. Burdette doesn't subscribe to parent club recommendations and no longer participates in AKC events, but rather in Schutzhund. She founded a United Schutzhund Club of America affiliated club, The Johann Platt Schafferhund Verein. It is possible that she is having dogs cleared in Europe, I cannot begin to guess. Her facility is gorgeous. 
That said, Golden Retrievers are not GSD's. Even in Europe, the health guidelines for Golden Retrievers apply, and it doesn't change that stating that dogs have clearances or titles when they do not is wrong.


----------



## nixietink

tippykayak said:


> Thanks! I wasn't asking for the thread to be closed as much as for that second part of what you said...


Ditto...It really bothers me to see members of the forum demeaned in that such manner.


----------



## Pointgold

*A moment of silence, please, for Sqwumpy...*

_With your drums and guns and drums and guns, hurroo, hurroo_
_With your drums and guns and drums and guns, hurroo, hurroo_
_With your drums and guns and drums and guns_
_The enemy nearly slew ye_
_Oh my darling dear, Ye look so queer_
_Sqwumpy we hardly knew ye._


----------



## missmarstar

Good riddance. Hoping its permanent this time though. That man is not a valuable member of this forum, whatsoever. 

I hope this thread can continue... I am finding it quite interesting to read, aside from all the drama from that one particular person.


----------



## Swampcollie

Sqwumpkin said:


> More misinformation.
> 
> So your beloved GRCA is a registry and guarantees buyers that a puppy is a purebred Golden Retriever?
> 
> The GRCA is a breed club. Much like Schutzhund USA. The real breed standard is maintained by the AKC. Don't believe me? how much could you sell your GRCA puppies for w/out AKC registration papers?
> 
> So the GRCA issues all the confirmation, hunting and obedience titles too? (for those who are new to the dog world, like Swampcollie, it's the AKC who does those things, not the GRCA.)
> 
> W/regards to the best practices published by the GRCA -- it's not like they developed them. They looked at what better breeders like my family - who show and compete at a world level (I don't, others in my family do. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back) -- are doing. One might argue they, ahem, *brokered* their own standard. That is, they took it from someone else and passed it off as their own.


Boy oh boy, I must never have learned anything Raising, Training and Judging Retrievers over the last 35 years.

The American Kennel Club *DOES NOT* write Breed Standards or Codes of Ethics for any breed including the Golden Retriever. 

The AKC, that's the American Kennel Club for those who don't know, is an organization comprised of other Member Clubs and all of the respective _*Parent Breed Clubs*_ who represent the Recognized Breeds of the American Kennel Club. 

The GRCA is the Parent Breed Club for the Golden Retriever and as such IT holds the Standard for the breed just as all of the other parent clubs do for their breeds. (Go to the AKC site, check the breed standard and you will see a foot note referencing "The Breed Standard as adopted by the GRCA". ) 

The AKC is a Registry and Sanctioning Body, that is their function. They are not the keepers for each breed, the Parent Breed Clubs ARE. The Parent Breed Club for each breed writes their own COE and standards of practice. 

The AKC Serves as a Sanctioning Body for things like Conformation Shows and Performance Events because they're open to and include more that just one Breed. But since you don't participate in such things you possess no knowledge or experience in understanding how all of the moving parts in the world of purebred dogs fit together and interact with each other.
It would benefit you and your dogs, to get out of the kennel once in a while and compete and/or participate in some organized AKC or GRCA activity. You may even learn something along the way.


----------



## Pointgold

Swampcollie said:


> Boy oh boy, I must never have learned anything Raising, Training and Judging Retrievers over the last 35 years.
> 
> The American Kennel Club *DOES NOT* write Breed Standards or Codes of Ethics for any breed including the Golden Retriever.
> 
> The AKC, that's the American Kennel Club for those who don't know, is an organization comprised of other Member Clubs and all of the respective _*Parent Breed Clubs*_ who represent the Recognized Breeds of the American Kennel Club.
> 
> The GRCA is the Parent Breed Club for the Golden Retriever and as such IT holds the Standard for the breed just as all of the other parent clubs do for their breeds. (Go to the AKC site, check the breed standard and you will see a foot note referencing "The Breed Standard as adopted by the GRCA". )
> 
> The AKC is a Registry and Sanctioning Body, that is their function. They are not the keepers for each breed, the Parent Breed Clubs ARE. The Parent Breed Club for each breed writes their own COE and standards of practice.
> 
> The AKC Serves as a Sanctioning Body for things like Conformation Shows and Performance Events because they're open to and include more that just one Breed. But since you don't participate in such things you possess no knowledge or experience in understanding how all of the moving parts in the world of purebred dogs fit together and interact with each other.
> It would benefit you and your dogs, to get out of the kennel once in a while and compete and/or participate in some organized AKC or GRCA activity. You may even learn something along the way.


 









*Who you tawkin' to?*

(cuz Sqwumpy, may he rest in peace, has left the building)​


----------



## Swampcollie

Pointgold said:


> *Who you tawkin' to?*​
> 
> (cuz Sqwumpy, may he rest in peace, has left the building)​


Awe Shucks! 

You mean I missed him?


----------



## nixietink

Pointgold said:


> _With your drums and guns and drums and guns, hurroo, hurroo_
> _With your drums and guns and drums and guns, hurroo, hurroo_
> _With your drums and guns and drums and guns_
> _The enemy nearly slew ye_
> _Oh my darling dear, Ye look so queer_
> _Sqwumpy we hardly knew ye._


Oh so sad to see him go....

:artydude


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

I don't always agree with SC or PG, but I would go to them for their advice any day! Just in case anyone cares...


----------



## GoldenRet46

From: Laurie Cantore
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 4:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Madison "Lilly" Cantore

Hi Craig,
Madison is doing great!!!!!! She had her first vet appt. yesterday and got a healthy seal of approval!!! Everyone (staff & clients) had to hug and kiss her. She really is quite adorable. Our Daughter, Son-in-law and 14 month old granddaughter are coming 
in tonite for the weekend to meet her. I am anxious to see how the "babies" get along. Our grand daughter loves dogs. They also bring their sweet 4 yr old cat, too. I'll keep you posted, maybe even some pictures. I see all the puppies are spoken for. 

They are truly special.

Laurie Cantore
____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Linda DiSola 
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 2:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Annie
Hi Craig,
Just wanted to let you know that Annie is doing great! She is such a sweetie!!! You did such a great job crate training her. 

Our Nikki loves her. I just bought a new camera today and am charging the batteries now. I will send you a couple of pictures of them together when it is finished charging. Thanks again.
Linda DiSola
____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Kim Gorski
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: 'David Gorski'
Subject: Ruby is Wonderful!!!

Dear Craig,

Just a quick e-mail to let you know how much we LOVE baby Ruby!!! She is loving our home and her new Mommy Sophie!
We lucked out last night and found a big bag of Royal Canine at Pet Smart, along with many new accessories last night!!!

Many thanks,
Kim, David, Kailey, Kristina, Sophie, Ruby & Teddy Gorski
Xoxoxo

Kim Gorski
Chelmsford, MA

____________________________________________________________________________________

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sharon
Date: Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Subject: Odie.....

Hi Craig,
I just wanted to send you some pictures of Odie, yes we kept the name.
He is: Sir Odie of Acushnet River Valley.
He is growing so fast and gets smarter everyday. We have so much fun with him.
My husband was so surprised and happy I gave him Odie for his birthday.


Thank You
Sharon & Rick Seney

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Katrina
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Brandy (5.5.10)

Dear Craig,

Sorry for the delay in the email. I wanted to update you on Brandy. She's doing really well! She's actually sleeping and snoring on the couch right now - she's claimed her corner of it. She's very smart and friendly. She had completed Puppy Basic and 
we're in Intermediate Class now. She's very good with children and with my grandparents. My grandfather absolutely adores her, and she walks very slowly with him while he hobbles along on his cane. I sent some photos so you could see how she's 
grown!

She is absolutely wonderful - thank you so much.

Katrina Esparza

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Rebecca Kertenis
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:49 PM
To: Craig Shaughnessy
Subject: male puppy

Hi Craig! We are now officially looking for another puppy! We adopted Abigail from you the end of last February and I contacted you during the summer about a male puppy, well we are now ready. We are looking for a light, big and blocky male. We 
were interested in the males you just had, but were not quick enough! So, we were wondering if there might be any puppies fitting that description that might be up and coming. We are certainly willing to wait for the "right" puppy. Please let me know if 
you might have anything available in the near future.
Thank you so much!
Rebecca

____________________________________________________________________________________


From: Michael Stenning
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Oliver Dec 2010

Hi Craig,

Best wishes to you and your family for a Happy 2011. I always enjoy checking out your web site - your Christmas puppies were beautiful. I don't know how you manage to get them in such great poses - your photography is superb.

Our Oliver is a very calm and affectionate Golden - we are enjoying him so much.
Regards,

Michael Stenning
Wilbraham, MA

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Mack, Michael
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:24 AM
To: Craig Shaughnessy
Subject: FW: Montana Freixenet Mack (The First) - Golden Retriever Par Excellence - Arrived February 2, 2009.

Hi, Craig: Montana is doing fabulously. He was a little upset on the ride home, which is understandable, but as soon as he arrived and met his two year old sister, Mitzi (Maltese) who likes to play every bit as much as he does, all else was forgotten. 
They have a ball together and wear each other out. He goes to the door whenever he has to go, which is every twenty minutes, and comes when he is called without hesitation. His training starts in earnest this weekend since he is a very smart dog. 
Instincts run deep. This morning he met our 16 year old cat for the first time, and his reaction was to freeze and point. He held the point for a good two minutes as the cat sized him up and then retreated to a safe loft to think it over. He is a great dog!

Below is the announcement to family and friends with pictures. I had about ten pictures attached but the server said, “No Way” and only accepted two. But it’s a start. We already have about fifty pictures of him. He’ll be a ham in no time. Thanks for the 
picture of his mother. I have just moved it into the hard drive and will incorporate it into Montana’s CD album. If you ever have a chance to get a picture of his father, we would love to have that as well. 

It was a pleasure meeting you, and we will stay in touch with pictures as he grows (which is by the minute). Hope all is well with you, and quietly hope that you do not get out of the “business”. You do a great service. Stay in touch. Mike


Hon. Michael A. Mack
Judge Trial Referee
Superior Court
978 Hartford Turnpike
Waterford, CT 06385


________________________________________
From: Mack, Michael
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 4:53 PM

Subject: Montana Freixenet Mack (The First) - Golden Retriever Par Excellence - Arrived February 2, 2009.

Please join us in welcoming into the family our newest “child”, Montana, kid brother of Lexie (Precious Princess Alexis of Mystic the First, age 8 yrs.) and Mitzi (age 2 yrs), born November 26, 2008, ten weeks old today, and weighing in at about thirty 
pounds with fence posts for legs. He joins Powder Keg (16 yr.old long-hair Tuxedo Cat) and Baby Kitty (four yr. old Tabby). 

Love, Bonnie and Mike


Hon. Michael A. Mack
Judge Trial Referee
Superior Court
978 Hartford Turnpike
Waterford, CT 06385


----------



## GoldenRet46

Craig Shaughnessy, MyGoldens.com

He has OFA Certifications on Parents, Good AKC 4-Generation Pedigrees with many Champions in Lines. Great Golden Retriever Pups!

From: Laurie Cantore
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 4:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Madison "Lilly" Cantore

Hi Craig,
Madison is doing great!!!!!! She had her first vet appt. yesterday and got a healthy seal of approval!!! Everyone (staff & clients) had to hug and kiss her. She really is quite adorable. Our Daughter, Son-in-law and 14 month old granddaughter are coming 
in tonite for the weekend to meet her. I am anxious to see how the "babies" get along. Our grand daughter loves dogs. They also bring their sweet 4 yr old cat, too. I'll keep you posted, maybe even some pictures. I see all the puppies are spoken for. 

They are truly special.

Laurie Cantore
____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Linda DiSola 
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 2:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Annie
Hi Craig,
Just wanted to let you know that Annie is doing great! She is such a sweetie!!! You did such a great job crate training her. 

Our Nikki loves her. I just bought a new camera today and am charging the batteries now. I will send you a couple of pictures of them together when it is finished charging. Thanks again.
Linda DiSola
____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Kim Gorski
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: 'David Gorski'
Subject: Ruby is Wonderful!!!

Dear Craig,

Just a quick e-mail to let you know how much we LOVE baby Ruby!!! She is loving our home and her new Mommy Sophie!
We lucked out last night and found a big bag of Royal Canine at Pet Smart, along with many new accessories last night!!!

Many thanks,
Kim, David, Kailey, Kristina, Sophie, Ruby & Teddy Gorski
Xoxoxo

Kim Gorski
Chelmsford, MA

____________________________________________________________________________________

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sharon
Date: Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Subject: Odie.....

Hi Craig,
I just wanted to send you some pictures of Odie, yes we kept the name.
He is: Sir Odie of Acushnet River Valley.
He is growing so fast and gets smarter everyday. We have so much fun with him.
My husband was so surprised and happy I gave him Odie for his birthday.


Thank You
Sharon & Rick Seney

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Katrina
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Brandy (5.5.10)

Dear Craig,

Sorry for the delay in the email. I wanted to update you on Brandy. She's doing really well! She's actually sleeping and snoring on the couch right now - she's claimed her corner of it. She's very smart and friendly. She had completed Puppy Basic and 
we're in Intermediate Class now. She's very good with children and with my grandparents. My grandfather absolutely adores her, and she walks very slowly with him while he hobbles along on his cane. I sent some photos so you could see how she's 
grown!

She is absolutely wonderful - thank you so much.

Katrina Esparza

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Rebecca Kertenis
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:49 PM
To: Craig Shaughnessy
Subject: male puppy

Hi Craig! We are now officially looking for another puppy! We adopted Abigail from you the end of last February and I contacted you during the summer about a male puppy, well we are now ready. We are looking for a light, big and blocky male. We 
were interested in the males you just had, but were not quick enough! So, we were wondering if there might be any puppies fitting that description that might be up and coming. We are certainly willing to wait for the "right" puppy. Please let me know if 
you might have anything available in the near future.
Thank you so much!
Rebecca

____________________________________________________________________________________


From: Michael Stenning
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Oliver Dec 2010

Hi Craig,

Best wishes to you and your family for a Happy 2011. I always enjoy checking out your web site - your Christmas puppies were beautiful. I don't know how you manage to get them in such great poses - your photography is superb.

Our Oliver is a very calm and affectionate Golden - we are enjoying him so much.
Regards,

Michael Stenning
Wilbraham, MA

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Mack, Michael
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:24 AM
To: Craig Shaughnessy
Subject: FW: Montana Freixenet Mack (The First) - Golden Retriever Par Excellence - Arrived February 2, 2009.

Hi, Craig: Montana is doing fabulously. He was a little upset on the ride home, which is understandable, but as soon as he arrived and met his two year old sister, Mitzi (Maltese) who likes to play every bit as much as he does, all else was forgotten. 
They have a ball together and wear each other out. He goes to the door whenever he has to go, which is every twenty minutes, and comes when he is called without hesitation. His training starts in earnest this weekend since he is a very smart dog. 
Instincts run deep. This morning he met our 16 year old cat for the first time, and his reaction was to freeze and point. He held the point for a good two minutes as the cat sized him up and then retreated to a safe loft to think it over. He is a great dog!

Below is the announcement to family and friends with pictures. I had about ten pictures attached but the server said, “No Way” and only accepted two. But it’s a start. We already have about fifty pictures of him. He’ll be a ham in no time. Thanks for the 
picture of his mother. I have just moved it into the hard drive and will incorporate it into Montana’s CD album. If you ever have a chance to get a picture of his father, we would love to have that as well. 

It was a pleasure meeting you, and we will stay in touch with pictures as he grows (which is by the minute). Hope all is well with you, and quietly hope that you do not get out of the “business”. You do a great service. Stay in touch. Mike


Hon. Michael A. Mack
Judge Trial Referee
Superior Court
978 Hartford Turnpike
Waterford, CT 06385


________________________________________
From: Mack, Michael
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 4:53 PM

Subject: Montana Freixenet Mack (The First) - Golden Retriever Par Excellence - Arrived February 2, 2009.

Please join us in welcoming into the family our newest “child”, Montana, kid brother of Lexie (Precious Princess Alexis of Mystic the First, age 8 yrs.) and Mitzi (age 2 yrs), born November 26, 2008, ten weeks old today, and weighing in at about thirty 
pounds with fence posts for legs. He joins Powder Keg (16 yr.old long-hair Tuxedo Cat) and Baby Kitty (four yr. old Tabby). 

Love, Bonnie and Mike


Hon. Michael A. Mack
Judge Trial Referee
Superior Court
978 Hartford Turnpike
Waterford, CT 06385


----------



## GoldenRet46

*About Craig Shaughnessy at MyGoldens.com*

Craig Shaughnessy partners with very good Golden Retriever Breeders. The breeders he works with have AKC Registrations of course, but also Orthopedic Foundation for Animals Certifications on parents and often many Champion Goldens in the 4-Generation Pedigree. He's assisted many in New England with getting a really nice Golden Retriever puppy that is healthy, good lineage, outstanding looks and great temperament.

Here are some of his peoples comments I found on his site. Your in good hands with this guy when it comes to getting a Golden.

From: Laurie Cantore
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 4:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Madison "Lilly" Cantore

Hi Craig,
Madison is doing great!!!!!! She had her first vet appt. yesterday and got a healthy seal of approval!!! Everyone (staff & clients) had to hug and kiss her. She really is quite adorable. Our Daughter, Son-in-law and 14 month old granddaughter are coming 
in tonite for the weekend to meet her. I am anxious to see how the "babies" get along. Our grand daughter loves dogs. They also bring their sweet 4 yr old cat, too. I'll keep you posted, maybe even some pictures. I see all the puppies are spoken for. 

They are truly special.

Laurie Cantore
____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Linda DiSola 
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 2:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Annie
Hi Craig,
Just wanted to let you know that Annie is doing great! She is such a sweetie!!! You did such a great job crate training her. 

Our Nikki loves her. I just bought a new camera today and am charging the batteries now. I will send you a couple of pictures of them together when it is finished charging. Thanks again.
Linda DiSola
____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Kim Gorski
Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 3:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: 'David Gorski'
Subject: Ruby is Wonderful!!!

Dear Craig,

Just a quick e-mail to let you know how much we LOVE baby Ruby!!! She is loving our home and her new Mommy Sophie!
We lucked out last night and found a big bag of Royal Canine at Pet Smart, along with many new accessories last night!!!

Many thanks,
Kim, David, Kailey, Kristina, Sophie, Ruby & Teddy Gorski
Xoxoxo

Kim Gorski
Chelmsford, MA

____________________________________________________________________________________

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sharon
Date: Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Subject: Odie.....

Hi Craig,
I just wanted to send you some pictures of Odie, yes we kept the name.
He is: Sir Odie of Acushnet River Valley.
He is growing so fast and gets smarter everyday. We have so much fun with him.
My husband was so surprised and happy I gave him Odie for his birthday.


Thank You
Sharon & Rick Seney

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Katrina
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 9:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Brandy (5.5.10)

Dear Craig,

Sorry for the delay in the email. I wanted to update you on Brandy. She's doing really well! She's actually sleeping and snoring on the couch right now - she's claimed her corner of it. She's very smart and friendly. She had completed Puppy Basic and 
we're in Intermediate Class now. She's very good with children and with my grandparents. My grandfather absolutely adores her, and she walks very slowly with him while he hobbles along on his cane. I sent some photos so you could see how she's 
grown!

She is absolutely wonderful - thank you so much.

Katrina Esparza

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Rebecca Kertenis
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:49 PM
To: Craig Shaughnessy
Subject: male puppy

Hi Craig! We are now officially looking for another puppy! We adopted Abigail from you the end of last February and I contacted you during the summer about a male puppy, well we are now ready. We are looking for a light, big and blocky male. We 
were interested in the males you just had, but were not quick enough! So, we were wondering if there might be any puppies fitting that description that might be up and coming. We are certainly willing to wait for the "right" puppy. Please let me know if 
you might have anything available in the near future.
Thank you so much!
Rebecca

____________________________________________________________________________________


From: Michael Stenning
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 10:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Oliver Dec 2010

Hi Craig,

Best wishes to you and your family for a Happy 2011. I always enjoy checking out your web site - your Christmas puppies were beautiful. I don't know how you manage to get them in such great poses - your photography is superb.

Our Oliver is a very calm and affectionate Golden - we are enjoying him so much.
Regards,

Michael Stenning
Wilbraham, MA

____________________________________________________________________________________

From: Mack, Michael
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:24 AM
To: Craig Shaughnessy
Subject: FW: Montana Freixenet Mack (The First) - Golden Retriever Par Excellence - Arrived February 2, 2009.

Hi, Craig: Montana is doing fabulously. He was a little upset on the ride home, which is understandable, but as soon as he arrived and met his two year old sister, Mitzi (Maltese) who likes to play every bit as much as he does, all else was forgotten. 
They have a ball together and wear each other out. He goes to the door whenever he has to go, which is every twenty minutes, and comes when he is called without hesitation. His training starts in earnest this weekend since he is a very smart dog. 
Instincts run deep. This morning he met our 16 year old cat for the first time, and his reaction was to freeze and point. He held the point for a good two minutes as the cat sized him up and then retreated to a safe loft to think it over. He is a great dog!

Below is the announcement to family and friends with pictures. I had about ten pictures attached but the server said, “No Way” and only accepted two. But it’s a start. We already have about fifty pictures of him. He’ll be a ham in no time. Thanks for the 
picture of his mother. I have just moved it into the hard drive and will incorporate it into Montana’s CD album. If you ever have a chance to get a picture of his father, we would love to have that as well. 

It was a pleasure meeting you, and we will stay in touch with pictures as he grows (which is by the minute). Hope all is well with you, and quietly hope that you do not get out of the “business”. You do a great service. Stay in touch. Mike


Hon. Michael A. Mack
Judge Trial Referee
Superior Court
978 Hartford Turnpike
Waterford, CT 06385


________________________________________
From: Mack, Michael
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 4:53 PM

Subject: Montana Freixenet Mack (The First) - Golden Retriever Par Excellence - Arrived February 2, 2009.

Please join us in welcoming into the family our newest “child”, Montana, kid brother of Lexie (Precious Princess Alexis of Mystic the First, age 8 yrs.) and Mitzi (age 2 yrs), born November 26, 2008, ten weeks old today, and weighing in at about thirty 
pounds with fence posts for legs. He joins Powder Keg (16 yr.old long-hair Tuxedo Cat) and Baby Kitty (four yr. old Tabby). 

Love, Bonnie and Mike


Hon. Michael A. Mack
Judge Trial Referee
Superior Court
978 Hartford Turnpike
Waterford, CT 06385


----------



## tippykayak

Any particular reason you're posting e-mails clearly sent to Craig Shaughnessy but then referring to him in the third person like you're not him?

And unverified e-mails of referrals mean a lot less than proof of health clearances and accomplishments, so if you are, in fact, Mr. Shaughnessy, why not post some brags about your dogs too?


----------



## tippykayak

Ahh...I see you've simply copied the referrals off their website, so maybe you aren't Craig Shaughnessy. The site still lists no identifiable information on the breeding dogs for checking the claims of "OFA Cert." and "champion lines." The site doesn't even claim the eye or heart certifications required by the Golden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics.

And no dogs are listed as bred by "Craig Shaughnessy" on k9data. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but it's a bit difficult to track down anything about the parents of the litter listed on the web page. Given that the pups are selling for a relatively high price ($1600), I'm surprised that there's nothing to brag about with the parents.

In the absence of other evidence, this still looks like a broker, and even if it's a breeder, it's strange that they wouldn't mention clearances and titles if they were in fact following the CoE and other best practices.


----------



## ragtym

Found some of his Goldens:

Sir Benson Jr. Von Meadow View - OFA Hips, no verifiable elbow, heart or eye clearances. Sire and Dam - OFA hips, no other verifiable clearances.

Tonya Von Meadow View - OFA Hips, no verifiable elbow, heart or eye clearances. Sire - OFA hips, no other verifiable clearances, dam has no verifiable clearances.

Tara Von Meadow View - OFA Hips, no verifiable elbow, heart or eye clearances. Sire - OFA hips, no other verifiable clearances, dam has no verifiable clearances.

Kara Von Meadow View - No verifiable hips, elbow, heart or eye clearances.

Anna Mary Von Meadow View - OFA Hips, no verifiable elbow, heart or eye clearances. Sire - OFA hips, no other verifiable clearances, dam has no verifiable clearances.

Tana Von Meadow View - OFA Hips, no verifiable elbow, heart or eye clearances. Sire and dam have no verifiable clearances.

There are others from "Von Meadow View" listed in OFA but most of them only have hip clearances as well. 

He also had this on his website at one point:


> The OFA certification ensures you and your Golden Retriever will not have to worry about Hip Dysplasia and 10-15 other orthopedic related diseases. The Champion Bloodlines provide for the hallmark type of temperament you want in a Golden Retriever. Traits such as calmness (not nervous), intelligent, affectionate, playful, and overall a pleasant companion. The OFA certifications ensure you are not one of those Golden owners I meet who spend $2K to $6K on surgery to save their Golden from inherent orthopedic related diseases.


He also breeds Boxers: http://myboxers.org/ and neither of the parents listed on this site have any verifiable clearances.


----------



## tippykayak

Good sleuthing!


----------



## Riley's Mom

This guy is a puppy Broker. Not to long ago on his website he had a 10 month old obese Golden for sale. He stated that the dog's parents hips were OFA excellent which meant highly recommended for breeding. I was flabbergasted when I read that. Unbelievable!! Until people smarten up and stop buying from him this nonsense will continue. It's amazing that people are paying this much for these pups when they could pay the same or less from a reputable breeder.


----------



## Sally's Mom

And from a genetic point of view, Sir Benson.. has a very high COI as his dad has a very high COI due to the line breeding with Sunshine Hill's National Cowboy... as one example of why are they breeding these dogs? What are they hoping to accomplish in their lines?


----------



## LuvGoldies75

*Review of “New England Goldens” golden retriever breeder (TERRIBLE experience)*

This is a review of “New England Goldens” which is also listed as “Windham Meadow View Golden Retrievers” and “Pup Star Photography” and “Windham Meadow View Boxers” located in Windham, NH. 

I was searching for a local breeder and found New England Goldens but their price was considerably higher than most other breeders. He is charging $2400 a pup and puts the price right on their pictures like they’re an appliance or something! Other breeders in the area charge $1700 on average. So I decided to email them to politely ask WHY the price is so high and NOT to haggle, considering it may have been a complicated birth with a c-section or because a champion pedigree sire was arranged, etc:


> Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 4:18 PM
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I was browsing your website and noticed you still had three female puppies available as of 10/13. I am writing to ask if any of the three are still available. My family and I are interested. I would have to ask perhaps why the puppies cost as much as they do, I am just wondering if perhaps you could itemize some of your own costs to me so I may understand the price better. If you would like to contact me, I can be reached at <number removed>.
> 
> Thanks,
> <my name>


To which Craig responded with:


> Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:20 AM
> 
> 
> Good morning <my name>,
> 
> What is this, Best Buy?
> 
> Lol.
> 
> Craig


He then sent another condescending email:


> Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:40 AM
> 
> 
> Itemization:
> 
> • AKC Registered
> • OFA Hip joint certified parents
> • Champion lines
> • Trained
> • Calmest around
> • Socialized
> • Available
> • What people will pay
> • The work involved to bring these pups to you
> • Quality
> • Looks
> • Genetic guarantees
> • Mercedes Vs Chevy
> • Harvard Vs UMass


Followed by a third:


> Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 9:53 AM
> 
> Anyway, those three females left last weekend. They are gone. They go fast. Site not updated yet to reflect the change in availability. We have another bunch ready this weekend.


Naturally I was offended by such a reply because every other breeder I have contacted was more than happy to provide this information. I simply wanted to get to know them as a breeder and gauge what kind of people they are. Nevertheless I was extremely put off and responded as so:


> Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:07 AM
> 
> 
> Hi Craig,
> 
> The question I asked was perfectly reasonable and something other breeders have gladly provided me. As a breeder you must be sure your clients are good people; as a client I have to make sure the breeders are good people. Judging by your lack of professional tact and condescending nature, I do not believe you love your dogs as much as you say you do. Had you corresponded more professionally I would have been willing to spend whatever the price was; money is not an issue of mine, but the quality of the person breeding and raising the dog is. If you wish to handle this like an adult, drop the acronyms, and the condescending attitude then I would gladly like to work with you. Otherwise please do not contact me ever again.
> 
> Best regards,
> <my name>


I don’t believe my question was unreasonable and I made to sure to ask it in a civil manner. I also don’t think I was being rude, unless I’m missing something here. If I was rude then I apologize, but I certainly didn’t need such a rude response.

Breeders have lots of expenses which they must endure and I simply wanted to know how these expenses are divided. Some may spend more money at the vet, some may purchase organic food, some may make raw food, and so on. It’s an excellent and easy way to gauge the history of the pups.

If I was asked the same question I wouldn’t be offended at all, assuming they were civil about it. Some people may be sensitive and a simple “no thank you, that’s personal” would have sufficed, or just in general a civil reply explaining why asking something like that is rude because I honestly had no idea!

With his final reply he clearly had no intent of handling this like an adult:


> Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:57 AM
> 
> 
> We don't want people that haggle on price. My condescending nature was designed to make you go away. Your worthless to my pups. Get lost.


There was absolutely no intent of haggling in my original email. Asking someone WHY a price is what it is, is NOT the same as asking to haggle on it. He then sent ANOTHER, unwarranted email:


> Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 10:59 AM
> 
> 
> creep



My husband then called him to make it clear never to contact us again. The first call Craig answered and all he said was *“this is Craig.”* My husband then said something along the lines of *“I thought I was very clear not to contact us ever again if you can’t handle the situation like an adult”* which is admittedly a little aggressive but my hubby can be a bit overprotective. Craig immediately hung up, so my husband called back and the first thing Craig says is *”do not contact me again either”* which my husband replied *“Really? You’re the one who can’t act like an adult.”* which Craig responded with *”Get out of here!”* and hung up.

I understand it’s everyone’s right to be rude if they want to and choose their customers as they please, but this is no way to gain the confidence of customers. I honestly had no idea my request for an itemized breakdown of the price was something rude to ask. Personally if I was a breeder I would be thrilled that a potential client was doing their research and making sure the breeder does everything properly, considering how many backyard breeders there are. 

My concern with Craig’s attitude is that he simply sees these dogs as a commodity with how sensitive he is when their price is questioned. It’s my understanding that if you are a respectable breeder who prides themselves in the pedigree of their dogs, then you’d be more than happy to gloat a little bit and prove how you’re the “best” around. There’s nothing wrong with charging a respectful amount for your pups, but any true Golden lover would never put prioritize the price of their pups over good owners and a good home. I’ve always been of the opinion that a good breeder does not do it for the money but for the love of the dogs. Obviously a price must be put on each pup to cover any expenses (vet bills, food, toys, etc) and it isn’t wrong to pocket some of it considering it is an endeavor raising them, but running this purely for profit is a HUGE red flag.



In short: I had a terrible experience and would never recommend this breeder to anyone. For those who are skeptical, I suggest calling and asking the same thing I did. I’m sure he will have something colorful to say to you as well.


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## GoldenRet46

*Policy on Forum Warning*

*7. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members will refrain from assassinating the character of another. – In heated discussion there is a tendency to malign the character of an opponent. Care must be taken in the wording of all statements of denigration to not single out any individual. An example is instead of saying “You are a liar” (an unacceptable accusation) nearly the same sentiment can be expressed as, “I believe you are mistaken”. Though the foregoing appears to be almost identical in the stated sentiment there is one major difference, the former attacks another’s character of honesty whereas the latter refers to a possible error having been made… this is a BIG distinction in any argument. Also refer to the larger group rather than a single individual when trying to make statements of a derogatory nature. Example: “You are a reckless breeder for not obtaining health certifications before breeding” (this being an example of an unacceptable attack on someone’s character) rather instead use “I feel all breeders who breed their dogs without obtaining health certifications prior is being reckless”. Again, the difference in meaning might seem non-existent but the earlier statement directly attacks a specific individual’s character whereas the latter is an expression of attitude toward a whole class, yet in effect making it understood that “if the shoe fits…” *

*8. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members are to avoid “Piling-on”. – A “pile-on” consists of a group of members quickly posting short statements of agreement (or disagreement) with an individual during a heated argument for the purpose of intimidation. Statements of support are acceptable in any argument as long as it also adds to the information base of the argument… meaning, another viewpoint or further data or proof is provided in addition to any comment of agreement or disagreement.*

*The owners, Forum Administrator/Moderator team of Golden Retriever Forum reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason. We also reserve the right to close user accounts or ban any of our members without previous warning or explanation. Such actions may include spamming, information in your registration suspected of being untruthful and/or the use of disposable e-mails.*
*______________________________________________*


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## GoldenRet46

*LuvGoldies75 will be sued for defamation of character.*

Hello,

This is Craig here. I don't usually get on this forum to put people down but sometimes you just have to stand up and defend yourself when someone is engaging in defamation of character practices like this person under user name LuvGoldies75. The user name LuvGoldies75 was just created by here in the last couple of days just to stage this attack on us. My partner and I breed some of the best Golden Retrievers and Boxers in the world and we care about who we place those golden and boxer pups with. Any negative feedback on this forum about us is only from someone like this person who has actually never met us in person or owned one of our pups. Maybe we treated Andrea Minihan a little bit hasty in our responses to her but it is only because she came to us demanding us to justify our prices. She is the one who came across as a bully and treated the process of getting a golden retriever pup like it was an appliance. I am very proud of our puppies and we do love them. 

Over the many years we have done this, people always start the conversation by telling us their experience with Goldens, perhaps losing one and describing why their home setting would be great for one of our pups. Andrea's first e-mail to us was simply I want one of your Goldens and you will sit down and essentially do a pricing itemization audit for me on why your cost are what they are. This upset us. And we are sorry for that. I just should have ignored these people like most breeders would and delete their e-mail. Unfortunately I decided that a bit of education to this self respecting bully would be called for. Any breeder can tell you the great amount of work, care, costs and risks of bringing a great healthy pup into the lives of many deserving people is costly and time consuming. When a bully comes out of nowhere and wants instantaneous respect and for us to justify our pricing by sitting down and itemizing all of our costs, it is just something we cannot swallow. This is a very emotional line of work to be in and we tend to be a bit sensitive to people like this. If any of the good people on this forum want to speak directly to us or any of the families who have got a Golden or Boxer from us, I encourage them to do so. Copied below is the common type of feedback we get from someone that actually has worked with us and has one of our pups. We have many of these types of comments. I can clearly see that this person Andrea Miihan invested a great deal of time displaying all of my personal information on the forum without our consent and is consistent with the initial impression we got from her and her husband, aggressive bullies that want respect from us because they may think that breeders are beneath them. I was a Vice President in Corporate America for twenty five years and I know the type of people the Minihans are. This is why I left corporate America. Everything is a price line item to them, including a best friend. She will be hearing from our attorney.

For the rest of you, god bless and Godspeed.

Best Regards,

Craig



Craig-
 I just want you to know that Priscilla (now Magnolia (nickname "Maggie") is doing very well. She is an absolute joy and is exactly as advertised. We would have kept the name Priscilla had we not already negotiated her new name and nickname in advance. Priscilla was a great name. Maggie was examined by a wonderful vet on Monday morning and was declared extremely healthy. The vet also said: "This is an A+++ puppy". She is very happy and is getting an appropriate amount of exercise but is not over doing it. She is very playful and is also really sweet as you already know. Maggie took the long ride back to Virginia very much in stride. She spent much of the ride curled up in Linda's lap. We made numerous stops to sure she had many opportunities to relieve herself. She is already going up and down stairs and is on the verge of being house broken. She also retrieves already. There are a number of really nice dogs to play with in our neighborhood. She has already made many friends. We are looking forward to getting to our ocean property in Maine where there are also a number of nice dogs but also a great deal of space to run and play. Yesterday she discovered that taking her paw and splashing it in her water dish was great fun. She then started splashing with both paws. I have a feeling she will be a great water dog as well. She sleeps in our bedroom with us and is adjusting to our schedule as we also adjust to hers. We are extremely happy with her and really appreciated the opportunity to meet you as well. You told us a number of things that are very helpful. We also enjoyed getting to know you. 
Thank you so much.​ Chris and Linda.​


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## CAROLINA MOM

Wrong thread


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## SheetsSM

Craig, welcome back to the thread. I see the same issues that arose back in 2011 are still present in 2014. Since you are stating you and your partner breed some of the best goldens & boxers, what venues do you compete to prove your dogs are the best? Are you just relying on what the goldens further back in the pedigree accomplished? Are you actually a breeder or are you a broker? With regards to clearances, can you provide registration #s of dams/sires being actively bred that have the 4 core MINIMUM clearances recommended by the GRCA? I think by providing info that can be publicly verified would do more for painting your breeding program in a better light that just posting happy customer reviews which you get to sensor.


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## lhowemt

"Customer" testimonials are some of my favorite parts of greeder and puppy mill/brokers websites. I love when a puppy is "as advertised". NOT.


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## LuvGoldies75

Currently I am pursuing having my posts removed by the admins. I have no more opinion on the subject and retract all statements made. I hope the admins respect my request and his.


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## Tennyson

.......U Scared?


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## LuvGoldies75

No.

To those who have replied to me in this thread and the one I made, I appreciate the criticism as much as I do the support.There was certainly error in my ways and I will work to change my character. But I am not continuing a meaningless fight.


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## Aiden's Mom

SheetsSM said:


> With regards to clearances, can you provide registration #s of dams/sires being actively bred that have the 4 core MINIMUM clearances recommended by the GRCA?


^^^ Are you able to answer this, Craig? If you really do love the breed like you say you do, I'd hope you'd at least do this for the livlihood of your beloved dogs. But sadly, I doubt that you have or will.

If you at least gave this information you'd come off less of a jerk than you did in those emails, and definitely show your "kennel" in better light...


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## Chritty

Having read this I find it quite obvious who the "bully" is.....


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## achamber

totally agree - that website seems questionable


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## achamber

after reading this thread all i can say is wow!!


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## LJack

SheetsSM said:


> With regards to clearances, can you provide registration #s of dams/sires being actively bred that have the 4 core MINIMUM clearances recommended by the GRCA? I think by providing info that can be publicly verified would do more for painting your breeding program in a better light that just posting happy customer reviews which you get to sensor.


Um, no. On the website currently is C-hamp and Big Bella pups. 
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
No verifiable elbows, eyes or hearts. 
C-hamp's mom shows no verifiable clearances and his dad only heart and eyes.
Bella's parents Pedigree: Dimitri Vladimir Of Striker and Pedigree: K&H's Bella Luna have no verifiable clearances at all.


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## GoldenRet46

First let us take a look at SheetsSM's profile first and I will address her comments and her obvious lack of trust in us, the health and quality of our goldens as well as our immaculate kennel of well cared for Champion line pedigree dogs. They have many OFA's throughout their 5-generation pedigrees of OUR lines. And the genetics move forward if you have any knowledge in the field of clinical research and statistics. And please take note that I am not a broker, but your assumption will be noted and added to the case file.

<LI class=profilefield_category>About SheetsSM Biography A golden mom of 2 rescues; volunteers w/ GRRA out of Atlanta GA Location Maryland Interests Rehabilitation of puppy mill breeder dogs Occupation Finance/Military Your Dogs Names Duke, Tiffany & wannabe golden Karleigh the cat


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## GoldenRet46

SheetsSM with her background copied above, sees only cases of neglected or abused golden retrievers down south I may add. You can imagine what she sees everyday and how her perception is widely skewed from the beautiful goldens we put into some of the best homes in America, fenced in yard, someone home during the day, usually have just lost a golden and need their own for pure therapy for their family. The people too, SheetsSM, remember about the people? They are good too. We are not what you see as a rescue person/rescue mom and a military background, with finance on top of that. We can see who you are and I know the life you lived. It is not ours, it's yours. We work closely with the New England branch of rescue up here, Yankee Golden. And none of our goldens we have placed in families have ever ended up there. When you are a golden retriever, you always have a home. That's why there can be 1-year waiting list at Yankee. We do refer people who come to us looking for an older Golden over to Yankee, but also inform them, there's a long line.


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## GoldenRet46

Anyway, I have to go spend some time outside with two beautiful Golden pups that are here with me right now. Sunny day today. The love chasing leaves. The grass is short and green, the wind is strong with tree moving strength, and the skis are blue with a bright early November sunshine. Still, need a coat like theirs. Thick coated white polar bears with boxy heads and deep chest. I just noticed today that they are now housetrained. I'll be back.


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## GoldenRet46

First let us take a look at SheetsSM's profile first and I will address her comments and her obvious lack of trust in us, the health and quality of our goldens as well as our immaculate kennel of well cared for Champion line pedigree dogs. They have many OFA's throughout their 5-generation pedigrees of OUR lines. And the genetics move forward if you have any knowledge in the field of clinical research and statistics. And please take note that I am not a broker, but your assumption will be noted and added to the case file.

<LI class=profilefield_category>About SheetsSM Biography A golden mom of 2 rescues; volunteers w/ GRRA out of Atlanta GA Location Maryland Interests Rehabilitation of puppy mill breeder dogs Occupation Finance/Military Your Dogs Names Duke, Tiffany & wannabe golden Karleigh the cat


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## GoldenRet46

SheetsSM with her background copied above, sees only cases of neglected or abused golden retrievers down south I may add. You can imagine what she sees everyday and how her perception is widely skewed from the beautiful goldens we put into some of the best homes in America, fenced in yard, someone home during the day, usually have just lost a golden and need their own for pure therapy for their family. The people too, SheetsSM, remember about the people? They are good too. We are not what you see as a rescue person/rescue mom and a military background, with finance on top of that. We can see who you are and I know the life you lived. It is not ours, it's yours. We work closely with the New England branch of rescue up here, Yankee Golden. And none of our goldens we have placed in families have ever ended up there. When you are a golden retriever, you always have a home. That's why there can be 1-year waiting list at Yankee. We do refer people who come to us looking for an older Golden over to Yankee, but also inform them, there's a long line.


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## GoldenRet46

Anyway, I have to go spend some time outside with two beautiful Golden pups that are here with me right now. Sunny day today. The love chasing leaves. The grass is short and green, the wind is strong with tree moving strength, and the skis are blue with a bright early November sunshine. Still, need a coat like theirs. Thick coated white polar bears with boxy heads and deep chest. I just noticed today that they are now housetrained. I'll be back.


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## GoldenRet46

*Sorry, posted my response twice. Darn computers.*

Sorry, posted my response twice. Darn computers.


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## tippykayak

GoldenRet46 said:


> First let us take a look at SheetsSM's profile first and I will address her comments and her obvious lack of trust in us, the health and quality of our goldens as well as our immaculate kennel of well cared for Champion line pedigree dogs. They have many OFA's throughout their 5-generation pedigrees of OUR lines. And the genetics move forward if you have any knowledge in the field of clinical research and statistics. And please take note that I am not a broker, but your assumption will be noted and added to the case file.


Look...I didn't think you were treated particularly fairly by a couple of the comments earlier in the thread, but let's be clear on what you can actually sue people over if you're going to keep making explicit (or as in what I quoted, vague) threats. You can successfully sue people for saying things that are false and damaging. They have to be _both_, though. And if somebody writes what they believe to be true and it's incorrect, they can usually protect themselves from an accusation of libel by acknowledging new, more accurate information when they find it.

And, I'll point out that you are not contradicting Sheets on the facts except on the assumption that you are a broker. If that's incorrect, I'm sure Sheets would happily acknowledge that it was an assumption based on the available evidence, not firsthand knowledge. 

However, I'll also point out that you just seemed to confirm the fact that you don't adhere to the GRCA code of ethics when it comes to breeding. You say there are "many OFA's" in the pedigrees, but you skirted right around the issue of breeding dogs on incomplete clearances. Would you say that you follow the GRCA CoE to the letter? I'd hate to make an incorrect assumption. Are you correcting Sheets on the _facts_ here (i.e., the OFA database entries are incorrect)? Or are you acknowledging the substance of what Sheets said is pretty much accurate but making the argument that complete clearances are not necessary on breeding dogs for some reason?

And the following statement, especially as an excuse not to do full clearances (which is how you seemed to make it) is entirely nonsensical: "And the genetics move forward if you have any knowledge in the field of clinical research and statistics." What does that even mean? I have knowledge in the fields of clinical research and statistics, and while I agree with you that "genetics move forward" in the sense that when you breed a dog, the puppies end up with, well, genes, I don't think that means that the puppies get any healthier unless we use the tools available to us, like the four bare minimum clearances as delineated in the GRCA CoE.


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## SheetsSM

SheetsSM said:


> Craig, welcome back to the thread. I see the same issues that arose back in 2011 are still present in 2014. Since you are stating you and your partner breed some of the best goldens & boxers, what venues do you compete to prove your dogs are the best? Are you just relying on what the goldens further back in the pedigree accomplished? Are you actually a breeder or are you a broker? With regards to clearances, can you provide registration #s of dams/sires being actively bred that have the 4 core MINIMUM clearances recommended by the GRCA? I think by providing info that can be publicly verified would do more for painting your breeding program in a better light that just posting happy customer reviews which you get to sensor.


Craig, take a look above, I asked if you were a broker along with several other questions you choose not to answer. Any reputable breeder has no issues answering these very basic questions.


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## tippykayak

SheetsSM said:


> Craig, take a look above, I asked if you were a broker along with several other questions you choose not to answer. Any reputable breeder has no issues answering these very basic questions.


Oh yeah - sorry. You didn't assume he was a broker. You just asked. Well, that's even farther away from libel that an honest mistake would be.


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## lhowemt

GoldenRet46 said:


> SheetsSM with her background copied above, sees only cases of neglected or abused golden retrievers down south I may add. You can imagine what she sees everyday and how her perception is widely skewed




You are passing judgement on someone by what they put in their profile? I'd say by being a regular contributor here, Sheets definitely "sees" and knows what constitutes a well bred and cared for dog. Well cared for also comes from how she cares for her dogs, regardless of background. Good thing for people like her, it is certainly not a defect, fault, or negative!


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## SheetsSM

GoldenRet46 said:


> ...And please take note that I am not a broker, but your assumption will be noted and added to the case file.


Just so the case file is annotated correctly, I asked if you were a broker. which based on your own comments in this thread, makes me still wonder what the answer is:


GoldenRet46 said:


> Craig Shaughnessy partners with very good Golden Retriever Breeders. The breeders he works with have AKC Registrations of course, but also Orthopedic Foundation for Animals Certifications on parents and often many Champion Goldens in the 4-Generation Pedigree.


When I looked up the breeder for the pup mentioned in a message provided by you from one of your puppy purchasers, the breeder is not you, it's Crist B. Lapp who when you google that name tracks back to online puppy broker site operating out of Pennsylvania. Reviewing the USDA website, Crist Lapp as of the last inspection had 68 adult dogs, and 85 puppies. https://acissearch.aphis.usda.gov/LPASearch/faces/CustomerSearch.jspx



GoldenRet46 said:


> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sharon
> Date: Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 2:55 PM
> Subject: Odie.....
> 
> Hi Craig,
> I just wanted to send you some pictures of Odie, yes we kept the name.
> He is: Sir Odie of Acushnet River Valley.
> He is growing so fast and gets smarter everyday. We have so much fun with him.
> My husband was so surprised and happy I gave him Odie for his birthday.
> 
> 
> Thank You
> Sharon & Rick Seney


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## ragtym

LJack said:


> Um, no. On the website currently is C-hamp and Big Bella pups.
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> No verifiable elbows, eyes or hearts.
> C-hamp's mom shows no verifiable clearances and his dad only heart and eyes.
> Bella's parents Pedigree: Dimitri Vladimir Of Striker and Pedigree: K&H's Bella Luna have no verifiable clearances at all.


Let's not forget this little tidbit:
BAILEE ARIA PAYTON - half-sister of Bella through sire, Dimitri Vladimir Of Striker, has OFA Mild hip dysplasia.
DIMITRI KAI NANOOK - half-sister of Bella by dam, K&H's Bella Luna, has Mild Unilateral Left hip dysplasia. 

Bella's mom, Luna (no verifiable clearances) has a littermate who has no verifiable hip clearance but who does have an elbow clearance. (Karma Koda)

Also, Bella's grandsire, Real Time Best Of Wolf Point is OFA Moderately dysplastic. 

And Champ's dam, Kassie Alberta (no verifiable clearances herself) has a littermate who is OFA Moderately dysplastic and has elbow dysplasia in one elbow (Zadie Brittain)

So Bella who is out of 2 dogs who have no verifiable clearances has 2 half-siblings who are dysplastic, an aunt who has no verifiable hip clearance, and a grandsire who was moderately dysplastic and she was bred to Champ. Champ's sire and dam have no verifiable hip/elbow clearances and his dam has a littermate who is moderately dysplastic and another half-brother (same sire) who is grade 2 dysplastic in both elbows.

From GoldenRet46: 


> And the genetics move forward if you have any knowledge in the field of clinical research and statistics.


Yeah sadly, those are some pretty bad genetics to "move forward" in this breeding.


----------

