# AKC Obedience Advisory Committee



## AmberSunrise

HUGE changes being proposed.

I voted today - did you ?? :wavey::wavey:

American Kennel Club - AKC Obedience

The Agility Committee also has changes but those were nowhere near as sweeping as the Obedience Proposals.

I hate the leash during the stays (safety concerns for the dog) and carrying small dogs (big dogs need to be under control; why not little dogs) but liked and loved most of the other proposed changes. I was 'could take it or leave it' on some as well.


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## Megora

I was hopping up down mad about the UKC jump for novice, emphasis on natural hand position in heeling (if that means people have to have the hand down at their side) and that whole carrying your dog thing. <- If they pass that rule, I might have to take up weight lifting so I can carry my golden retriever in and out!

*** I admittedly don't mind leaving the leashes on. It basically avoids any worries about what can happen while you take the leash off and put it behind you and getting the leash back on the dog.


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## AmberSunrise

Maybe that's what we all should do if that passes!! Carry our dogs in & out of the ring  heeheehee Look Out judge!! here we come LOL

The leash bothers me
1) If a dog breaks and goes over to play tug with another dogs leash
2) If a dog breaks the sit and goes down tightening or pulling on the collar
3) Leashes getting tangled in the event of multiple dogs breaking; real fights can happen when a dog is trapped by his collar or leash

I think the stays should just be trained to a reasonably confident level and then slip leads held by the stewards should be more than sufficient for any dogs that do break.


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## Titan1

I have a problem with the POTCH.. We worked extremely hard for our OTCH and it should be a stretch and rewarding good teams. I thought that was what the OGM was for...UGh! I do like be able to earn your way into those S/D or just one or the other..and after doing UKC.. I don't mind the jump on the recall..Sounds like there might be some cross over stuff... UKC does the One minute sit as a group and the honor in a safe location for the down stay, They also have a novice C for people who have their title and want to keep showing before they are ready for Open..Oh And I love the fact they are thinking of using the same point schedule for each class...makes more sense to me...lol


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## boomers_dawn

I voted too! 

I also thought about carrying my dogs in and out of the ring .... except it would probably end up with them carrying me in and out


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## Titan1

boomers_dawn said:


> I voted too!
> 
> I also thought about carrying my dogs in and out of the ring .... except it would probably end up with them carrying me in and out


Hey I culd carry Titan no worries and he would let me.. BUT I draw the line with Mighty.. 64lbs is a little too much..:doh:


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## Eowyn

Titan1 said:


> I have a problem with the POTCH.. We worked extremely hard for our OTCH and it should be a stretch and rewarding good teams.


Same here. I know too many people who have worked their tails off for their OTCH (and plan on doing so myself at some point), and I feel the POTCH would take away from what they have worked for. Plus it isn't like there is a lack of suffix titles people can earn non competitively, but please keep the prefix titles for those who have worked hard for them. 

Picturing myself carrying my 75# golden retriever in the ring… Like what the heck???


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## Megora

(waves a sheepish hand around) - I have a dog who I do not want to ask to jump his height anymore. He's 6 years old, not getting younger, and I basically am shifting gears to making sure we extend the years he has to be comfortable and active. I want him to be 12 years old and still going on hikes with me. 

So yes, I am all for really getting those preferred classes going and permanent in the AKC. And I love the idea of there being a big OTCH equivalent title for dogs who compete in the preferred classes. 

I think you have to have a big goal or something to work towards if these preferred classes take off. Having a big Champion type title way ahead of you if you stick with it is something to work towards.... and would (hopefully) give more recognition to the teams competing with their dogs in these classes.


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## rhondas

@Megora

The pre-classes exceptions are more than a lower jump height.
There are changes to other exercises for pre-Utility - signals and scent discrimination. Pre-Open doesn't have long downs or sits and neither does Pre-Novice.

I personally don't agree with keeping pre-Utility at the same level as Utility. 
It is not fair to those who are truly doing Utility. The same goes for pre-Open
Futhermore it's not fair to those who work hard to get an OTCH to have the POTCH near an equivalent.


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## MaureenM

I haven't voted, but plan to. I read over everything briefly, but being so new to this, I want to make sure I know what the differences are. I'm still trying to learn the rules as they are, so for me to say one way or the other, I need to look at it all again....and understand all the initials


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## Titan1

I spent over 10 years dreaming and working with different dogs to get my OTCH.
The OTCH CT and MH should be hard to get.. Not every dog or every person should be able to attain those. That is what makes the difference and makes all the blood sweat and tears and all the hours training worth it.. Because let me tell you there is nothing in this world like your very 1st OTCH point ..and absolutely nothing compares to accomplishing a dream with your best friend!
The OGM title is there for people who want to work for a higher Title and that is a great feeling too.
Okay.. off my soapbox..rofl..


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## Loisiana

The only one I'm really against is the POTCH. For those who would normally go for a UDX and know they aren't OTCH material, why would they go for a UDX if they can instead earn both a PUDX *and* a pretty champion title POTCH. Change the POTCH title to POM - POGM.

The natural hand position won't eliminate hand at waist.

After watching stewards struggling to get a slip lead over a loose dog too many times, I think leaving the leash on is the safer option, although of course there is always the freak thing that can happen.

I had already decided before these came out that the next time Flip qualifies in utility, I am carrying him in for awards.


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## Eowyn

Loisiana said:


> I had already decided before these came out that the next time Flip qualifies in utility, I am carrying him in for awards.


:worthless (or better yet a video)


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## Loisiana

Eowyn said:


> :worthless (or better yet a video)


you might be waiting awhile if we're waiting for Flip to qualify in utility :uhoh:


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## AmberSunrise

I really do dislike the leash on -- I have seen dogs panicked when another dog has their leash (or collar) -- but I guess if we could use a tab or traffic leash and could have it over our dogs' back rather than dangling it might be safer. 

And yep, I can pick up and carry each of my dogs LOL Could be a wonderful way to celebrate accomplishing a goal  

As a person who does not aspire to an OTCh (resources and inclination) but greatly admires those who have accomplished such a wonderful goal, I feel the OTCh is very special and should stand on its own ... it is a competition and should remain the pinnacle it is.

ETA: you know, a dream of mine is to someday have a maltese showing in both obedience and agility. I honestly cannot imagine walking into a ring full of dogs with a fluffy little white dog and setting it down -- wow, that sounds like a invitation to invite prey drive being kicked in -- have you ever seen a dog being carried and then placed on the ground that does not shake and move??


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## AmberSunrise

I truly think your input is needed - many of us are responding based on our past histories, but you would be responding as someone with fresh eyes -- would these proposed changes increase or decrease your desire to show & compete? Would you feel your dog was safer?

Grins - please express your opinions to the AKC - these are the broadest set of changes being proposed I have ever seen and the committee has worked really hard at possibly updating the sport of obedience.




MaureenM said:


> I haven't voted, but plan to. I read over everything briefly, but being so new to this, I want to make sure I know what the differences are. I'm still trying to learn the rules as they are, so for me to say one way or the other, I need to look at it all again....and understand all the initials


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## Maxs Mom

I have not read proposals so plan to and plan to post my opinions for agility do I will for obedience. 

Based on comments here my thoughts..... Leashes, while yes they can be a risk I think they are less risk than being unable to grab a dog in an altercation. For years I said I'd never do open because I don't like the stays. I feel better knowing judges can grab a leash. 

Carrying small dogs, doesn't that ASK for problems?? How many times have up seen dogs lunge at carried dogs......

POTCH.... I know the agility community thought the preferred division was the evil step child. It doesn't take away from current titles. It allows people who can't for whatever reason achieve a high title. The dogs are judged completely separate. Now I haven't looked to see how the classes will be differentiated. I need to do that but I know in agility I could never have run Belle regular and qualified. So I would have probably given up instead of getting Gabby. Belle made me want to do more not because she couldn't achieve but because she could. She qualified twice for PNAC, finished 4th once and was 3 QQ's away from her championship when I had to retire her. I still miss running her. 

Obedience is SO competitive I think people who can't at top levels should have somewhere to play but ALL titles should be considered. CDP on up. 


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## Megora

Meant to say this the other day, but agree 100% with what Ann just said.

I've been following the conversation the last few days on the POTCH and trying to read between the lines as far as why people are so concerned about preferred classes actually being regarded as "regular" titles, which I kinda assume this is where they're headed.... 

And best what I can tell is that people think that if there is an easier route to an Obedience CH, that people will voluntarily take it whether their dogs could actually do well taking the normal route to an OTCH or not. I think there's a fear that this might weed down even further the amount of "fodder" in obedience classes for others to gain points off of - especially as these classes are shrinking as more and more old obedience people are dying off.

I've seen arguments with people worrying about the value of the OTCH going down because other people are going to be getting POTCH's. And here's my thing - I've not followed agility - but was immediately thinking about how even non-agility people know the difference between MACH's and PACH's! 

I think that speaking as somebody who would be looking into purchasing a puppy way down the road - I may go the same route I did with Bertie (probably will) unless I see something that lines up with what I'm looking for, but let me just say that if somebody is selling puppies based on preferred titles on the parents.... that is not going to be as big a selling point to me as seeing regular obedience titles on the dogs! Because I'm not necessarily going to be believe those puppies have as "athletic" and "solid" a background as dogs who had to at least jump their heights and stay in a ring while their owners were out of sight. 

I also was thinking as far as Bertie who is now jumping 20".... <= I'm just 4" off our goal as far as building his jump up..... 

Unless I find out something BAD when I take him to get his OFA's in Sept (I'm so nervous and assuming the worst because except for Sammy going back a few years, the last two dogs have had either bad elbows or bad hips - I don't really have good luck with these things even now buying a puppy with excellent hips on both sides behind him) - unless I find out something bad, Bertie will be trained for OPEN and Utility and I will hopefully show and title him in both before he and I are very old. Even while I'm THRILLED that we have a no-stays and low-jump option for Jacks (who is just barely making it over 20" jumps here at home) - doesn't mean I will voluntarily take that route with an able bodied dog. 

So here's my think - I think people are making a mountain out of molehill if they think that the POTCH will very much change their lives as far as their competition. 

I think the people who normally would do the OTCH route with their dogs - they will still do it with their dogs. Generally speaking, I think the majority of OTCH earners out there are people who have put OTCH's on prior dogs and it's basically their big goal the instant the dogs come home as puppies. 

The people who will probably do the P-OTCH route, I think these people would normally be like me and retire after novice - particularly since our dogs are unable through mental strength or physical strength be able to handle regular Open and Utility. And there's those of us who would not push our dogs to the point that we would cause them serious injury or early progression of arthritis. A title is not worth it if your dogs can't go walking with you after age 8 or whatnot.


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## Titan1

When AKC added all these other optional classes and titles it was because the people not showing toward an OTCH said that they had no reason to keep showing. Then they added the OM and OGM which is a non competitive title just based on scores..
Seems to me they keep adding classes and titles but there doesn't seem to be a whole big influx of those people showing more. The entire intent is to bring more people into obedience and that just has not happened because obedience takes longer to train and more work. I believe the lowering of the jumps in Agility make total sense because all of the jumps and would allow people to keep showing with their older dogs and some young ones that they just don't want to jump higher. I may be the only one on the planet who has this wrong but isn't the only difference between a MACH and PACH is the height they are jumping? The skills are still required? 
So I really don't believe comparing MACH-PACH and OTCH -POTCH are a true comparision.I don't think removing the harder exercises from obedience is going to draw that many more people. Those same people that are saying they want this will find other reason not to continue...
I love obedience and yes there are things that should a could be addressed...I guess it goes with alot of things now.. I think the real issue is people want instant gratification and do not want to spend the time it takes to get there even though that is what it is about.. the teamwork and time spent..not everything in life should be free and easy..
Look at golfing... not everyone can be Tiger but they are out there every weekend because they love it...if they changed what I thought was hard would it really change my habits.. probably not ..


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## AmberSunrise

The Preferred classes in agility also add a minimal amount of time to the Standard Course Time (SCT). I believe this is 5 seconds but could be wrong. The MACH & PACH are both admired and indicate a truly dedicated team. The courses are the same. 

Speaking as someone who has previously rarely to never NQ'd in obedience, I can also say that Faelan and my journey into Utility (he had never before NQ'd in obedience or rally) has been interesting - a very smart dog adept at making choices in a class with a myriad of both right & wrong choices. We succeeded in Qing yesterday and the feeling was absolutely, positively incredible! I truly hope the exercises pretty much remain the same in all classes - perhaps one Stay (which I personally suspect would usually be the Sit since it is usually the weaker of the stay positions plus it takes less time).


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## Titan1

Sunrise said:


> The Preferred classes in agility also add a minimal amount of time to the Standard Course Time (SCT). I believe this is 5 seconds but could be wrong. The MACH & PACH are both admired and indicate a truly dedicated team. The courses are the same.
> 
> Speaking as someone who has previously rarely to never NQ'd in obedience, I can also say that Faelan and my journey into Utility (he had never before NQ'd in obedience or rally) has been interesting - a very smart dog adept at making choices in a class with a myriad of both right & wrong choices. We succeeded in Qing yesterday and the feeling was absolutely, positively incredible! I truly hope the exercises pretty much remain the same in all classes - perhaps one Stay (which I personally suspect would usually be the Sit since it is usually the weaker of the stay positions plus it takes less time).


Thanks for the clarification.. I appreciate it! :
Huge congrats on that leg.. it is a awesome feeling and just think if someone could bottle that feeling up and sell it.. I would be 1st in line!


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## Sally's Mom

Not sure how I feel about the broad jump options.. Also, I have NQ'ed with a dog in Open because of something like not returning over the high jump, but the dog was solid on stays. With the new rules, now I wouldn't be allowed to go back for stays. Also, rightly or wrongly, I do not jump any of mine at any height until two years, so the jump in Novice would bother me.

Sunrise, I was in your shoes with my Laney. CD and CDX in three straight shows... But Utility was a bugaboo. I would fix one exercise only to have to fix another one the next time. And that was in the days when I worked Sundays and was reluctant to use Sundays as vacation time... It took me awhile ...but on the bright side since Utility A is hard for many of us, she got her title with two first places and a second.


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## TheZ's

Sally's Mom said:


> Also, rightly or wrongly, I do not jump any of mine at any height until two years, so the jump in Novice would bother me.


_Sally's Mom_, are you saying your dogs don't go over any kind of jump before age two? What would you suggest to others for determining when a Golden is ready to jump? What about dogs that are prone to jumping during play?

I also didn't understand why they would add this to novice when most of the other changes seemed to make things easier.


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## Titan1

TheZ's said:


> _Sally's Mom_, are you saying your dogs don't go over any kind of jump before age two? What would you suggest to others for determining when a Golden is ready to jump? What about dogs that are prone to jumping during play?
> 
> I also didn't understand why they would add this to novice when most of the other changes seemed to make things easier.


UKC has a high jump at a low level do do the recall over. They are talking about adding this and taking away either the sits or downs and replacing it with this. 
Utility is called futility for a reason...lol..


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## TheZ's

Titan1 said:


> UKC has a high jump at a low level do do the recall over. They are talking about adding this and taking away either the sits or downs and replacing it with this.
> Utility is called futility for a reason...lol..


Why does AKC care about making Novice like low level UKC obedience? Are they losing people to UKC obedience competition? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think UKC obedience is very big here in the northeast.


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## AmberSunrise

I also wait until 2 years or close to 2 years before jumping any height above their elbows with my dogs. I personally feel there is no rush since hopefully my dogs will be competing until they are well into their double digit years and why risk their joints, front ends & (usually) immature dogalities - a crash into a jump is much less traumatic to a mature dog that to a youngster if your youngster is at all impressionable (picturing a few labs from this past weekend who did crash right through the high jumps and seemed to find it amusing).


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## Loisiana

The recall over the jump is the exercise proposed to replace one of the stays. It would be 1/2 jump height, so for the average golden that's going to be 12". I don't jump my dogs young (Phoenix is yet to see a jump of any height, even a bar on the ground), but I don't show them young either.


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## Megora

Titan1 said:


> When AKC added all these other optional classes and titles it was because the people not showing toward an OTCH said that they had no reason to keep showing. Then they added the OM and OGM which is a non competitive title just based on scores..
> Seems to me they keep adding classes and titles but there doesn't seem to be a whole big influx of those people showing more. The entire intent is to bring more people into obedience and that just has not happened because obedience takes longer to train and more work.


My take though is that there's different quibblers that the AKC has been listening to? 

People wanted classes to get young dogs into the ring - so BN, GN, GO... right? <- And those satisfied the people who wanted those options. ME INCLUDED. Getting Jacks into BN was an awesome way of getting him into the ring without demanding too much of him as far as stays. And I have friends who use the Graduate Novice and Graduate Open classes to proof dogs before actually showing in Open and Utility. 

My honest opinion is maybe the Wild Card classes should go away as more clubs offer the above options. 

When you enter shows - I think those are the non-regular class options. 

The thing with preferred.... I do get that some people are just doing the preferred classes instead of the BN/GN/GO options because the classes are closer to the "Real thing" (meaning BN bears no resemblance to novice in scoring or essentials, there's only one stay in GN and they do a couple odd things as far as the jumps/retrieve, and GO there something different with the articles and signals which a lot of people have said is negative thing as far as preparing their dogs for Utility), and it works better while preparing young dogs. Or fixing odds and ends with older dogs before actually showing in Open or Utility.

I guess my only problem there is that if people are using classes for "practice" that kinda kicks down the validity of those classes and/or the bragworthiness of winning these classes. I'm sure it's not that much different from people showing in UKC as preparation for showing in AKC. When I showed Bertie in UKC a couple weeks ago, I was biting my tongue to keep from telling people that my real goal is an AKC CH and I was there for practice. I think you have a lot of people doing that and it's caused some attitude from UKC people who want their titles, titled dogs, and everything to be taken seriously. 

So from that perspective, I'd hope they keep the BN/GN/GO classes in addition to the Preferred classes.... but I probably understand why some people think one or the other is superfluous for their purposes and/or how they use the classes. 

The issue with stays (people who do not want their dogs in the ring with nasty dogs) - this was answered partially with the judges whittling down the amount of people in the ring by excusing non-qualifying teams, and judges excusing teams whose dogs act up outside the ring or going into the ring..... <- I'm thrilled with that, even knowing it's going to be difficult keeping my happy dogs under control while leaving the ring. Everyone is saying the same thing as well about that - I'm not the only one whose dogs get VERY ENTHUSIASTIC about going out to their toys or jackpots. 

The issue with lower jumps - I think creating a preferred "route" for people who want to continue showing their dogs but can no longer ask them to jump high enough.... answers the requests of people LIKE ME who have a dog that's got a lot more potential to show off than just a CD title. 

If the AKC were just lowering jumps alone for PREFERRED - I would have been happy with that. Because stays as difficult as they have been, can be fixed. We actually did have Jacks staying out of sight for a while there and of course there was a time where I never thought we'd get his stays for his CD, and that happened with a lot of hard work. So I'm not somebody who believes in taking short cuts or getting things fast at the cost of good high scores and beautiful runs in the ring. Getting OOS stays would be hard, but it's doable.

That all said since the AKC is looking to offer a PREFERRED option without stays as opposed to getting rid of stays in regular obedience, I am happy with that because it's less stress on my dog. 

Regular obedience - I don't want them changing anything more than they already have. No more dumbing down the sport or giving judges more ways to whittle points off your score!

I don't want them adding a jump to novice or removing stays from open or doing whatever they probably are doing to utility.... <- I guess from my standpoint with Jacks, I'd love if they bring the jumps closer together (he doesn't always get the idea of steering way to the side to take a jump), but yeesh, there's more temptation for dogs to take jumps on their way out so I'd never truly wish for that....


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## Lucky Penny

I do not like the idea of making the novice stay just 1 min. There is a big difference from a 1 min stay to a 3 min stay and getting a CD is a lot of work. Stay is an important exercise in my opinion. 

It is sounding a lot more like UKC. I know the last OB show I went to entries were so low for Novice. I think only 4 were entered in my class and I was the only one to show up. I bet with these new rules more people will be attracted to Novice and entries will go up. I agree that the jump will stop me from ever showing my dogs until they are 2 years old. 

The whole not allowing dogs to do stays if they fail another exercise, I don't like that. Judges already excuse dogs they think are out of control, why not leave it at that?

Hand in the natural position, does that mean at the side, or can the hand still be on the waist?

And carrying small dogs in? Come on, this is OBEDIENCE!!!


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## Lucky Penny

Just voted.


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## Sally's Mom

I do not officially jump my guys until two. I worry about the repetitive landing on the front end. In any case, I can never control jumping from the couch to the ottoman, back to the chair, off the couch to the floor etc, you get it.. And mine do wood floors and stairs from 8 weeks on...


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## Jersey's Mom

I've read through the proposed changes and the replies in this thread with great interest. I think the debate over the POTCh title is a good one and thought I would put in my 2 cents here while I continue to mull things over before commenting formally to AKC. Jersey and I have spent the majority of our time over the last 4-5 years focusing on agility, so I was interested in the comparison made to the PACH title. In my opinion, the POTCh and the PACH are different in one very fundamental way: the rules for obtaining the POTCh in no way mirrors the OTCH. 

In agility, those in preferred classes get to jump 4 inches lower and they are given an additional 5 seconds to finish the course. This is great for older dogs or for dogs who are simply not built for traditional agility, whether due to breed or individual traits of the dog. Two of the dogs in my weekly agility class are great examples here. One is a leonberger.... 'Nuff said, lol. The other is a German shorthaired pointer who happens to be somewhat straight in the front... The amount of reach she needed to clear 20 inches was causing strain and injury, but she runs beautifully and smoothly at a preferred height of 16 inches. If not for the choice of preferred, neither of these dogs would have the chance to compete. Their preferred height is the "right" height for them. So they have the chance to earn titles that mirror the regular titles by fulfilling the exact same criteria (same courses with the same challenges, same number of qualifying scores or combinations of qualifying scores required) as the regular classes. It they want to achieve an MXP they have to qualify 10 times in the master preferred class.... Same as Jersey and I had toqualifym10 times in the master regular class to achieve our MX. If they want to seek a PACH they will have to achieve 20 QQs in the preferred masters classes and accumulate 750 points -- the same task Jersey and I are hoping to accomplish in the regular classes to achieve our MACH. I don't think this will be any easier for them as it is for us because I do not believe any dog is in that class just to make it easier... they are there so that their dog may jump the correct height for their body. The challenge they face in the preferred ring matches the one myself and others face in the regular classes. 

I think that is why there is so much push back from the obedience community on the POTCh. They didn't just lower the jump height and decrease the time a dog must hold a static sitting position (which may be difficult for any number of dogs due to their age, build, or joint health). They flat out changed the rules of the game without truly differentiating the titles. If they had proposed a title called a POTCh where the only difference between the regular and preferred classes were (for example for the sake of argument) a lower jump height and a reasonable decrease in the amount if time required on a static sit stay and that was still a "competitive title" that required the accumulation of the same number of points as the OTCH -- adjusted, perhaps, for a lower number of dogs required to accumulate points to accommodate the fact that this is likely to be a smaller class and with an allowance to adjust the point schedule if the classes grow significantly in popularity -- then I think you would find more people to be supportive of the idea. I think about the fact that I always wanted to get a utility title on Jersey but have decided against it (unless I change my mind) with him being 8.5 years old and us having so very much to train/retrain after so many years off. If a truly equivalent preferred option were available, would I consider it? I think I would. And if a truly equivalent preferred-udx existed, might we decide to keep going? Well, maybe. But as the current preferred options stand, I don't think I am interested. Just one person's opinion. 

One other thing that rubs me wrong about obedience switching to the use of the term preferred with the differences in the classes as they now stand -- it almost seems intended to mislead from my point of view. People who are knowledgeable about agility but not obedience (or used to do obedience but didn't keep up with these rule changes) would be very likely to assume that the preferred classes in obedience match up with the regular classes the same way they do in agility. After using the term preferred in agility for however many years to define a very slight change in the criteria between classes, it just doesn't seem honest to use the same term to describe these MAJOR differences between the classes/titles in obedience. Again, just my opinion. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz

PS- Why isn't there a thread like this for the agility recommendations? Going to actually search and make sure there isn't. If not, keep a look out because I may start one myself!


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## AmberSunrise

grins - the agility proposals are not nearly as sweeping or controversial


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## Jersey's Mom

Sunrise said:


> grins - the agility proposals are not nearly as sweeping or controversial



Very true... But still worth talking about by people who love the sport, no?

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Loisiana

I could get more behind the idea of a POTCH if they would raise the requirements. Average scores in watered down classes, is that really deserving of a championship title?


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## Eowyn

Lucky Penny said:


> Hand in the natural position, does that mean at the side, or can the hand still be on the waist?


I sure as heck hope it will still be allowed on the waist! They aren't trying to get rid of head up heeling are they? That is what I read it to mean… I would be very very disappointed if they did (possibly to the point of not competing with my next puppy who I had planned to train/show in obedience).


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## AmberSunrise

WOW !! I just read a clarification about what the allowable hand positions while heeling might be --- I will be watching this closely since if it passes, I will be delaying Brady's debut -- that is how much I love the potential and how unnatural I still find bent elbow close to body with hand flat against the midline of the abdomen 

Among other positions the hand position on the opposite side of the dog's head ( IPO style) and held steady on the hip might become allowable - I love the hand resting on my hip and feel that is natural for sure! Wonder if we could tuck our thumb into our pocket as long as the hand was flat against the hip


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## Megora

Sunrise said:


> WOW !! I just read a clarification about what the allowable hand positions while heeling might be --- I will be watching this closely since if it passes, I will be delaying Brady's debut -- that is how much I love the potential and how unnatural I still find bent elbow close to body with hand flat against the midline of the abdomen
> 
> Among other positions the hand position on the opposite side of the dog's head ( IPO style) and held steady on the hip might become allowable - I love the hand resting on my hip and feel that is natural for sure! Wonder if we could tuck our thumb into our pocket as long as the hand was flat against the hip


Sharon - if that is the case, there's all us who trained our dogs to heel by luring to the hip + begin off leash heeling with the hand right there at the hip.... <- all us are jumping up and down for joy. No more transitioning to the hand over the belly.


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## sdhgolden

I'm confused about the proposed changes for hand position. Were did you read the clarification regarding hand position? All I saw was hand must be in natural position. 


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## AmberSunrise

I saw it on a FB list made up of obedience advocates


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## TheZ's

Sunrise said:


> WOW !! I just read a clarification about what the allowable hand positions while heeling might be --- I will be watching this closely since if it passes, I will be delaying Brady's debut -- that is how much I love the potential and how unnatural I still find bent elbow close to body with hand flat against the midline of the abdomen
> 
> *Among other positions the hand position on the opposite side of the dog's head ( IPO style) and held steady on the hip might become allowable* - I love the hand resting on my hip and feel that is natural for sure! Wonder if we could tuck our thumb into our pocket as long as the hand was flat against the hip



How is that "natural"? I have to say the elbow bent hand at center abdomen never seemed natural to me either. When I saw the hands in a natural position I assumed they needed to be hanging freely at your side.

When will the revised rules become effective? How's one supposed to train when the rules are uncertain? And for those of us not in the know, what is IPO style?


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## Megora

@z's - not natural at all. Just makes life a lot easier for trainers.


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## AmberSunrise

Every video I have seen of IPO style heeling has the handlers left hand on the far side of the dogs's head.

I actually do consider the hand near the hip a natural position since I often walk with one or both hands tucked in pant front pockets 

When a change is approved there is usually a year or so of lead time before the changes go into effect.


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## K9-Design

Oooo I'm totally doing the IPO hand position at some point if the rule goes through. (Much like I am going to carry my 70 lb golden into the ring for awards if they pass that.) I practice this with Slater all the time. He loves it because he thinks I'm going to grab his collar and wrestle. It is a great proof to show that your dog is not just heeling because he thinks you have food in your hand. 
I also think it would be a good bridge to maybe help a crossover from AKC to IPO obedience. We have a lot to learn from them


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## TheZ's

So on a quick Google, it seems that IPO is Shutzhund? Why would AKC want to go there? My first Google of IPO style heeling turned up lots of Denise Fenzi stuff including a video of a dog named "Thriller" being worked. Hand positions for heeling included: at the hip, on the nose, at far side of the head. If the intent of the rule change is to allow more styles of heeling, I guess I get that but I think to call it "natural" is misleading.


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## AmberSunrise

A truly natural style would be the left arm gently swinging which is allowed. However, this arm position creates problems with our larger dogs....our hand would be interfering with their head, ears etc since they should be heeling closely. Any people with smaller dogs can allow their left hand to swing naturally but it is very difficult with a close heeling larger dog...they would almost have to veer away from heel position to protect themselves. I think walking with your hand at hip level is a natural position or outside the head where you don't bonk your dog.


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## TheZ's

I guess with the hand outside the head you wouldn't have to worry much about heeling wide. Maybe I'm not up to date but I thought AKC penalized for any contact between dog and handler during heeling, making super close heeling problematic.


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## Loisiana

Hey Anney, they already passed allowing dogs to be carried in for awards!


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## K9-Design

Loisiana said:


> Hey Anney, they already passed allowing dogs to be carried in for awards!


Oh sweet. Well much to my back's relief I'll reserve it to new title ribbons only LOL


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## Eowyn

Loisiana said:


> Hey Anney, they already passed allowing dogs to be carried in for awards!


Oh my goodness, I am so going to carry my dog in next time!


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## Lucky Penny

Here are the new set of proposals:
http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/obedience/2014_2nd_OAC_Notes.pdf

What are everyone's thoughts now?

Here is the form where we can vote on the proposals:
AKC 2014 Obedience Advisory Committee - Recommendations


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## Lucky Penny

I just sent my thoughts into them once again. I think it is really silly to: (especially in open!)

a. Replace one (removed) group exercise with “Stay – Handler gets Leash” as the last individual exercise. Approximately 20’ from the gate area the judge will order the handler to place the dog in the sit or down position and to get the leash. The handler will return to the dog and the judge will order “Exercise Finished.” The same position will be used for all dogs in the class.

Also, in Novice. Isn't this just like a rally course? I like rally but I think that there should be a difference between rally and obedience. This to me is silly and there is already a separate recall, so why the need for this as well? 

4. Heel, Drop & Recall – Heel forward, down dog, leave dog, call dog - 30 points. 
(Judge will order team to heel, down dog, leave dog, handler goes to other end of 
the ring, Judge will order call dog as in the Novice Recall)

The new proposal does not upset me as much as the first one. I just am frustrated with how much they are making it easier. It is frustrating to all the dogs and handlers out there who have accomplished these levels already. I feel like AKC is doing this to get more people into obedience to make more $$$.


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## PalouseDogs

I don't interpret the changes in Open and Novice as designed to make OB "easier". The idea is to replace and/or modify the stays, because so many people hate them. Granted, some people hate them only because they have a dog with stay issues, but many people have valid fears about leaving their dogs in group stays, not because they can't trian their own dog, but because they don't know how well someone else's dog has been trained. 

If the group stays are modified to either sit or down, with a replacement exercise, the replacement exercise will be another place to lose points. In Novice, I don't like the idea of a 1/2 ht jump because of the extra time it would take to have to set jumps. One of the reasons Novice takes less time than the other classes is that you don't have to fiddle with jumps. 

The Novice drop is an interesting idea. Rather than a drop with the dog next to the handler, I think I'd rather see the dog left in a stand/sty, and have the handler move away about 10 feet, face dog, and give a command to drop or sit. It's an exercise that wouldn't be another version of heeling or a recall and would be an intro to DOR and signals in higher classes. 

For the group stay replacement in Open, I'm not sure what an Open stand for exame is, but I could live with it. I think the replacement exercise should be one that doesn't add a lot of time, and I presume it would be a fairly quick exercise.

As for leashes, I think I like the idea in Novice, maybe with specifications that it be a 2 or 3 foot leash without a loop at the end that dogs might step in and get tangled in. I think the Novice Stay should be either a 2 minute sit or a 4 minute down. 

In Open, I don't think there should be a leash requirement, but I definitely like the change to allowing only dogs that have Q'd up to that point in the group stays. It reduces the number of dogs in the ring and most classes that now have split stays would no longer need to be split. I'd keep the Open stays the same length, either a 3 minute sit or a 5 minute down.


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## AmbikaGR

There is very little if anything I like in the proposals. 
There is no need to change the stays in Novice and Open - That is what the Pre Classes are dealing with - NO stays. And I DO feel that the changes lower the standard of the titles as they currently exist. 

If they want to require clubs to offer corresponding Pre classes for each regular class offer they need to change the number of classes a judge can judge in an 8 hour period. If not then any club looking to host a one ring/one judge trial would have to limit entries to 7 hours for that judge instead of 8 thus the host club would lose revenue. 

Changing how a competitor can do the broad jump would affect and limit how a judge would need to set up his ring so this could work.

The POC and PUDX are just money making ideas for the AKC. But if they want to award them no big deal to me. HIT/HC for the Pre classes just again costs the host club more money for prizes/rosettes. 

The one thing I do like is allowing Rally Judges to judge non-regular classes. But with all the other changes likely to see fewer of these classes offered if they go through so will not matter.


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## PalouseDogs

On the topic of Preferred classes: I LOVE the idea of the alternative track, analogous to Preferred in agility. I don't even have a problem with the classes being mandatory. I would suggests that, if the Preferred entries are small, just run the Prefered dogs during the regular classes, like Rally A and B classes are often run together, unless the A entries are large. 

For the POTCH, however, I'd award points similar to the way they OTCH points are awarded. I think the rationale for awarding them by scores is that the expectation is that entries will be so low, it will be difficult to accumulate enough points if points are based only on number of dogs entered. Also, I don't see why dogs that already have an OTCH shouldn't be allowed to persue a POTCH. 

My biggest disappointment with the proposed changes is that I don't think they are sweeping enough!!!


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## Megora

I made my comments over on Sharon's new thread and the comp thread.... 

But - 



PalouseDogs said:


> My biggest disappointment with the proposed changes is that I don't think they are sweeping enough!!!


 If it weren't for this, I would have totally liked and thanked your post. 

I don't care what changes they make to the POTCH or how difficult it is getting an POTCH. I'm thrilled beyond belief about their being something else to do in obedience if regular height jumping and stays in general don't work with your dogs!!!!!!! 

Years ago - probably toughest thing was retiring my Novice A dog from obedience because of his elbows. Bad elbows or not, he would have been fine jumping 12". 

Actually with Jacks - jumping 12" (1/2 his height rounded to the nearest 2" - he's 23.5) - he's practically stepping over the jump with no additional exertion needed. 

Even if they require me to do preferred novice with him before I can do preferred open - I'll do that novice thing again. Probably would be a lot more pleasant for me to go out there and not worry about those fangled stays. 


But I absolutely agree with everyone asking that AKC LEAVE REGULAR OBEDIENCE ALONE!!!! 

I was talking to the lady I take private lessons with and she was just as flabbergasted as I was about the suggestion of cutting on-leash heeling for novice. With a young dog or green trainer, that on leash is the best chance you get at a warm up before the leash comes off to do it all over again off leash.


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## Lucky Penny

Megora, I agree with your thoughts.

I did not see Sharon's new post, will check that out. Was just adding to what was started before.


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## AmberSunrise

Grins - I started a new post since the new OAC elements are in addition to the original thoughts - so I found it easier to include both sets of recommendations in one initial post.




Lucky Penny said:


> Megora, I agree with your thoughts.
> 
> I did not see Sharon's new post, will check that out. Was just adding to what was started before.


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