# Coming of Age Dog Aggression



## gldnboys

I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through this. Have you had his thyroid function tested? That would be my first suggestion when an aggression issue suddenly turns up the way you've described.


----------



## Eowyn

Have you gotten a full thyroid panel done on him? If not I would do one ASAP, that can definitely create aggression issues with a usually non aggressive dog.


----------



## Jennifer1

I agree, get his thyroid checked.
If he comes back cleared health-wise by a vet, I would look into BAT training.
Official Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) site: humane help for aggression, frustration, and fear in dogs, horses, and other animals.


----------



## coaraujo

He had this T4 done when I brought him in for the GRLS. It came back as normal. This was in March. It looks like it was 1 and the range is .8 - 3.5

ETA Is this something that can happen with an intact dog? They get a Napoleon complex and need to be reminded they're not the boss. Or is this usually not an issue? Bernie and Oliver are my first two dogs and while Bernie doesn't have dominance issues, he has fear aggression issues. Maybe I just have bad luck?


----------



## gldnboys

I believe that a low normal is actually considered low for a Golden, i.e. the dog would still benefit from thyroid supplementation. There are more specific tests that can be done as well to check for/confirm thyroid issues. I'm not an expert in this area but I know there are others here who are, so hopefully you'll get some good advice.


----------



## aussieresc

A couple of things come to my mind as I read this. He is still intact, is there a reason to not neuter? If he is living with a dog who is aggressive he may be following that behavior? I also agree about getting his thyroid checked and I would also test for any of the tick borne illnesses if they are an issue in your area?


----------



## Megora

One thought out of box.... is Oliver usually around when Bernie acts up? Could be he is picking up some cues from Bernie? 

Other thing is.... it really isn't necessary to do group play stuff with these dogs. Can you drop all of that completely and just focus on training and polite/controlled interactions with other dogs.... and see how he is by the time he is 4 or 5 and well past all of this? 

It could be a coming of age thing with all the hormones, but sometimes the easiest immediate fixes are what help the best. In this case, dropping the play sessions with strange dogs (not Bernie) probably will help the best.


----------



## inge

Wow...Oliver? You're right, you know Liza and I love both your boys, we never had an issue with either of them, but your description doesn't fit the Oliver I knew at all...I am really sorry...


----------



## mylissyk

Thyroid level of 1 is actually low, he really should be started on thyroid medication. In Goldens in particular it's beneficial to give medication when the thyroid level is in the low end of normal range. Thyroid being low can contribute to a lot of things, behavior changes, coat, skin, ear issues, and a whole host of other things that hormones regulate and make function properly.


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> A couple of things come to my mind as I read this. He is still intact, is there a reason to not neuter? If he is living with a dog who is aggressive he may be following that behavior? I also agree about getting his thyroid checked and I would also test for any of the tick borne illnesses if they are an issue in your area?


My breeder didn't want me to neuter him. I also wanted to keep him intact, just for health reasons. My trainer said that neutering wouldn't make a difference (that was my first question to him). I wanted to talk with my vet about that. Oliver has Lyme Disease.

ETA I was also planning on doing conformation with him at some point. Not so sure about that anymore..


----------



## coaraujo

Megora said:


> One thought out of box.... is Oliver usually around when Bernie acts up? Could be he is picking up some cues from Bernie?
> 
> Other thing is.... it really isn't necessary to do group play stuff with these dogs. Can you drop all of that completely and just focus on training and polite/controlled interactions with other dogs.... and see how he is by the time he is 4 or 5 and well past all of this?
> 
> It could be a coming of age thing with all the hormones, but sometimes the easiest immediate fixes are what help the best. In this case, dropping the play sessions with strange dogs (not Bernie) probably will help the best.


As of right now we don't do any play sessions. The reason I noticed his aggression is because it got so bad that he started randomly going after dogs in class. Its just weird because we were in handling class like a month ago where he had his nose up the butt of the dog in front of him and another nose up his butt (exaggeration, but you know how close everyone gets when lining up in the ring) and he was fine. But now we work outside the little gates while everyone is in the ring and can't be anywhere too close to another dog. If it wasn't so bad that he was productive during class I would be okay with just seeing how if it got better with age, but we can't get through class. I don't even know if I feel comfortable bringing him anymore to be honest. I think he's probably too much of a distraction for the other dogs.

If Bernie reacts Oliver reacts. We don't usually train them together, so this doesn't happen very often. My trainer reassured me that he doesn't think Bernie's issues contributed to what's going on with Oliver. We have been training with this trainer since Oliver was 6 months old so he knows both dogs very well.


----------



## coaraujo

I think its time to schedule another vet visit and do a full thyroid panel. Thank you everyone for your replies.


----------



## aussieresc

Lyme Disease could certainly be a contributing factor to the aggression. If he were my own dog I would neuter at this point. It may or may not help the aggression, but waiting longer will certainly not be a benefit in this area.


----------



## Megora

coaraujo said:


> As of right now we don't do any play sessions. The reason I noticed his aggression is because it got so bad that he started randomly going after dogs in class. Its just weird because we were in handling class like a month ago where he had his nose up the butt of the dog in front of him and another nose up his butt (exaggeration, but you know how close everyone gets when lining up in the ring) and he was fine. But now we work outside the little gates while everyone is in the ring and can't be anywhere too close to another dog. If it wasn't so bad that he was productive during class I would be okay with just seeing how if it got better with age, but we can't get through class. I don't even know if I feel comfortable bringing him anymore to be honest. I think he's probably too much of a distraction for the other dogs.


 When you get this figured out - I don't know how the TBD's affect behavior and I'm not going to try dx your dog with the thyroid - though that does sound low to me (Jacks tested at 1. something - and my vet told me that those were numbers she'd expect with an untreated "sick" thyroid, so we had to raise his levels)....

When you get it all figured out, discuss this with your obedience teacher getting into group classes and managing Mr. Hormones (from the sounds of it) around other dogs. It will take a lot of work for you, but it is do-able. Um, there are a lot of dogs out there in conformation and obedience... especially with breeds known for being macho butts.... who I would not trust my dog looking in the face or in that dog's bubble. And it just takes careful management. And training your dog not to zero in or stare down other dogs. 

I'm not sure if you are still planning to get into obedience comp with him and Bernie, but you need to get through crowds of dogs and people to get to the ring sometimes... and AKC is now booting dogs for what goes on outside the ring as well as inside.


----------



## coaraujo

Megora said:


> When you get this figured out - I don't know how the TBD's affect behavior and I'm not going to try dx your dog with the thyroid - though that does sound low to me (Jacks tested at 1. something - and my vet told me that those were numbers she'd expect with an untreated "sick" thyroid, so we had to raise his levels)....
> 
> When you get it all figured out, discuss this with your obedience teacher getting into group classes and managing Mr. Hormones (from the sounds of it) around other dogs. It will take a lot of work for you, but it is do-able. Um, there are a lot of dogs out there in conformation and obedience... especially with breeds known for being macho butts.... who I would not trust my dog looking in the face or in that dog's bubble. And it just takes careful management. And training your dog not to zero in or stare down other dogs.
> 
> I'm not sure if you are still planning to get into obedience comp with him and Bernie, but you need to get through crowds of dogs and people to get to the ring sometimes... and AKC is now booting dogs for what goes on outside the ring as well as inside.


I do really want to continue some sort of competition with the both of them. With Bernie we've really come far, hunting has really done wonders for him and his fear aggression. He's very well composed around other dogs and like a lot of the things you've mention - we've trained him not to zero in on other dogs and manage the situation at all times. It looks like we're back to square one, but this time with Oliver.


----------



## Loisiana

Do the thyroid testing through Hemopet

Hemopet Hemolife Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory


----------



## Ljilly28

Is there any possibility he is in any kind of pain- back pain, ear infection, infected back tooth? Has there been any actual bite of another dog? Here is the protocol Tufts gave for things to try while figuring out a long term approach

- Low protein diet
- Fluxetine
- Awareness of trigger stacking, where several stressors pile up. The dog might manage them fine separately, but the cumulative affect is too much.
- Limiting self-rewarding behaviors, and increasing valued resources coming from owner- hand feeding, working for all priveleges like the door being opened.
- Neutering
- Management to ensure no practicing or rehearsal of the behavior 

I also really like the book RUFF Love by Susan Garrett even though is is really strict.


----------



## Max's Dad

At 1.0, Oliver's thyroid is in the normal range. Does he exhibit any other symptoms that show a problem with a low thyroid--such as skin issues, problems with a thin coat, ear infections, lethargy? If his only symptom is aggression, which began about the time he matured, it is unlikely his aggression is being caused by a low thyroid.

If his thyroid proves to be normal, you may have have to consider having him neutered to help solve the problem.


----------



## Mayve

coaraujo said:


> He had this T4 done when I brought him in for the GRLS. It came back as normal. This was in March. It looks like it was 1 and the range is .8 - 3.5
> 
> ETA Is this something that can happen with an intact dog? They get a Napoleon complex and need to be reminded they're not the boss. Or is this usually not an issue? Bernie and Oliver are my first two dogs and while Bernie doesn't have dominance issues, he has fear aggression issues. Maybe I just have bad luck?


Low normal is considered to low for a golden. I would suggest you have a full thyroid panel on him. Dr. Dodds is highly respected in the golden community and has a website....hemopet.com I believe. Do a google for her it will come up. 

Eta...I didnt read all the response before I posted....glad you are considering a full panel....good luck and please keep us posted!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## ang.suds

I just wanted to give a few words of encouragement. We adopted our Shepherd mix, Subira, in October. She was pretty highly leash reactive and dog reactive until we reached out to a trainer. We worked with her consistently in a class designed for reactive dogs. After about four months, she had progressed so well that the trainer decided to accept her into daycare. Now she is Miss Popular and the favorite among staff and other dogs. There is hope with lots of patience and training. We will always have to be more careful with her than our other dogs and intros are slower but it can get to a comfortable point. It's frustrating, I know. Wishing you all the very best!


----------



## sdhgolden

Megora said:


> Other thing is.... it really isn't necessary to do group play stuff with these dogs. Can you drop all of that completely and just focus on training and polite/controlled interactions with other dogs.... and see how he is by the time he is 4 or 5 and well past all of this?



I'm curious about what you said here about group play stuff not being necessary and seeing how he is at 4 or 5. Could you expand on this? Why wait? Again just curious and wanting to learn. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Karen519

*Oliver*



coaraujo said:


> I think its time to schedule another vet visit and do a full thyroid panel. Thank you everyone for your replies.


Like everyone else I would have his thyroid tested again. If he were my dog, I also would have him neutered. I am pretty sure that the Lyme Disease is contributing to the aggression, too. So sorry that you and Oliver are going through so much.


----------



## tippykayak

I'm a little concerned that your trainer is telling you to read this as "dominance," since that's been pretty much discredited by pretty much the entire animal behavior community as a way of reading and reducing dog aggression. Makes me concerned that your trainer may be advising things that are reducing the _signs_ of aggression temporarily but may be causing increased displaced aggression in the long run. Just covering all the bases here.


----------



## Ljilly28

Brenda Aloff's Aggression in Dogs: Practical Management, Prevention & Behaviour Modification is good reading.


----------



## coaraujo

tippykayak said:


> I'm a little concerned that your trainer is telling you to read this as "dominance," since that's been pretty much discredited by pretty much the entire animal behavior community as a way of reading and reducing dog aggression. Makes me concerned that your trainer may be advising things that are reducing the _signs_ of aggression temporarily but may be causing increased displaced aggression in the long run. Just covering all the bases here.


What else causes aggression besides fear and dominance or a genetic issue? I mean I don't think Oliver has this innate desire to kill or anything. He exhibits a lot of male dominant type behaviors which is why I agree with my trainer. I feel like he's being a bully and a Napoleon. I'm pretty sure the training that we've been doing is all completely in line with what positive trainers do and is more of a conditioning/behavior modification than training. I am well aware that you can't fight aggression with aggression. We are not using any punishment.


----------



## coaraujo

I will definitely check out the suggested readings. Hopefully that will help me understsand better whats going on.


----------



## Megora

sdhgolden said:


> I'm curious about what you said here about group play stuff not being necessary and seeing how he is at 4 or 5. Could you expand on this? Why wait? Again just curious and wanting to learn.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Mainly I meant reinforced manners through this time period (young dog throwing his weight around) will help you develop the dog you want to have when he is an adult. 

But also (in addition to really reinforcing manners) - I think the dogs who get overly excited about meeting and playing every dog they see when the are younger than 2.... they calm down a LOT by the time they are older.


----------



## coaraujo

Megora said:


> Mainly I meant reinforced manners through this time period *(young dog throwing his weight around)* will help you develop the dog you want to have when he is an adult.
> 
> But also (in addition to really reinforcing manners) - I think the dogs who get overly excited about meeting and playing every dog they see when the are younger than 2.... they calm down a LOT by the time they are older.


That's exactly what I think Oliver is doing.


----------



## Karen519

*Oliver*

What exactly does Oliver do that it being called aggressive or dominant?


----------



## aussieresc

coaraujo said:


> We are not using any punishment.


I would consider the leash around the waste as punishment even if not coming directly from you. He may now begin connecting the discomfort of that with seeing other dogs.

I would recommend the book Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> I would consider the leash around the waste as punishment even if not coming directly from you. He may now begin connecting the discomfort of that with seeing other dogs.
> 
> I would recommend the book Click to Calm by Emma Parsons.


 
The leash around the waste just puts the pressure on a different area of his body instead of his neck so when he randomly lunges he is stopped with the least aversive correction possible. Otherwise its a battle of me and him pulling as hard as we can. Me falling all over the place while he pulls toward the other dog. With the leash around the waste it stops him immediately. A lot of trainers use this with puppies. Its an awkward feeling for the dog so they stop moving. I wouldn't consider it "positive" but it is very similar to a easy walk harness.


----------



## tippykayak

coaraujo said:


> What else causes aggression besides fear and dominance or a genetic issue? I mean I don't think Oliver has this innate desire to kill or anything. He exhibits a lot of male dominant type behaviors which is why I agree with my trainer. I feel like he's being a bully and a Napoleon. I'm pretty sure the training that we've been doing is all completely in line with what positive trainers do and is more of a conditioning/behavior modification than training. I am well aware that you can't fight aggression with aggression. We are not using any punishment.


A lot of stuff causes behaviors that can come under the label of aggression, so without seeing exactly what you're talking about, I can't effectively speculate about the causes of Oliver's specifically. But there are many things besides fear that cause it, and I would definitely say that dominance, as the term is currently used among ethologists, doesn't _cause_ aggression, though. Dominance is contextual access to resources, not an innate quality of a dog. A dog isn't "dominant" all the time as a default setting, but rather dominant or submissive in a particular context .

So if you see a dog who exhibits a lot of contextual aggressive threat displays (snarling, lunging, growling, snapping, certain kinds of barking, etc.), he is probably _insecure_ moreso than "dominant." He may also be confused about how to get what he wants. He may also _not_ be confused because he has learned that such displays get him what he wants. Without seeing Oliver, it's hard to say.

I will say that I've seen many dogs—again, this doesn't necessarily apply to Oliver—who will make seemingly aggressive displays when they see other dogs. Some are actually fearful and are saying "give us our space" in an attempt to protect themselves and their handlers. Some actually want to play, but are so overwhelmed with frustration that they get upset. I've seen both of these scenarios turn into full on dog aggression and leash aggression when the handlers inadvertently feed the insecurity or fear.

You described at least one thing that is positively punishing the behavior and may be contributing to your problem: "I wrap the leash around his waste so when he lunges he self corrects himself." You're punishing the lunging in a way that might decrease the lunging itself but might increase aggression elsewhere because it adds discomfort to a situation where he is already over-aroused. Other methods along these lines could absolutely make his problem worse.

Stuff more along these lines would probably work better: "We found the threshold where Oliver didn't get aggressive and I treated and prasied him." You can show him a different way to get good things like comfort and safety, and he should opt for those behaviors instead of the displays.

But could you describe more of what Oliver _does_? You're saying he goes Cujo, but has he actually started a dogfight? Or is it more a leash behavior? At our trainers' meeting last night, we were actually talking about identifying aggressive behaviors and potential solutions to them because that was the subject of one of the days of the APDT conference two of our trainers attended. They shared some of the interesting stuff they learned about identifying it, understanding the root causes, and helping clients improve it.


----------



## Karen519

*Corajoe*

I just googled dog aggression and thyroid problems and you should see how much there is on this topic!


----------



## coaraujo

Karen519 said:


> What exactly does Oliver do that it being called aggressive or dominant?


His dominant behaviors can be seen at home. He's an avid marker. Not just pee on every bush, but pees on Bernie every time Bernie pees kind of marker. He resource guards high value items with Bernie and will flaunt them. He'll take things he doesn't want that he knows Bernie wants and flaunt them in Bernie's face. When Bernie gets attention Oliver has to try and interrupt. He's attacked Bernie over food/new toys before. In training Oliver does things on his own terms and blows me off a lot. Which is why we went back to basic obedience. I have no focus out of him anymore. All he does is sniff and mark. And now attacks other dogs. Tail up back arched in a "dominant" stance. When we've had my BF's brother's dogs over Oliver will chase them around the yard running right next to them hovering over them barking, like he's trying to let him know he's the boss. He does it whether we're at our house, or at their house, or someone elses house. Its like he needs to show he's the ring leader.

The aggression is because he goes from standing next to me paying attention to me to lunging to the other end of the leash trying to attack the other dog - Cujo status. One time during hunting training we were at the edge of class waiting our turn to be in the ring and he randomly took off after the dog in the ring. I wasn't expecting it because there was no reason for him to go after the dog so I lost the leash. And he chased the dog around the room snarling and hovering over him. I think maybe he was trying to tell him that the bumpers belonged to him. 

He was always a brat, but he was never violent. I guess I should have seen this coming?


----------



## Eowyn

I believe 1 would be low for a golden and it definitely would explain the behavior problems you are having. Personally I would not consider neutering unless as a last resort option.


----------



## aussieresc

Eowyn said:


> I believe 1 would be low for a golden and it definitely would explain the behavior problems you are having. Personally I would not consider neutering unless as a last resort option.



Just wondering any you wouldn't considering neutering?


----------



## Eowyn

aussieresc said:


> Just wondering any you wouldn't considering neutering?


Several reasons, #1 being the biggest. 

1. Because I would hate to see such a drastic decision made before ruling out other possibilities (like a thyroid issue that would likely go away with meds).

2. Oliver would not be allowed to compete in conformation if he was neutered and I would hate to see his owner not be able to show him.

3. Behaviors are behaviors, whether or not a dog is neutered. The only issue I have seen neutering actually help with is marking, and even that is not always the case. Training and ruling out any health issues would be a much more effective way to curb the behavior. 

4. Getting rid of 1/3 of his hormones/endocrine system can have a pretty big impact on his health and length of life. As long as Courtney is 100% sure is isn't going to be having any oops litters I don't think it is necessary. 

On a side note, I appreciate your graciousness in asking the question, as I know you are involved in rescue. I understand the not spaying/neutering can be a bit of a hot topic for rescue people, as they tend to bear the burden of others irresponsibility.


----------



## aussieresc

I am involved with rescue and have been for a long time, but have no issue with dogs who are not neutered, if there is a reason for not doing so. I own 2 Goldens from breeders so clearly I see both sides. In this case I have concerns as there are 2 males in the home who have displayed dog aggression. I've also seen positive results with younger dogs in controlling aggression after neutering. Once the dog is over 3, we've seen very little change as the behaviors are now learned.


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> I am involved with rescue and have been for a long time, but have no issue with dogs who are not neutered, if there is a reason for not doing so. I own 2 Goldens from breeders so clearly I see both sides. In this case I have concerns as there are 2 males in the home who have displayed dog aggression. I've also seen positive results with younger dogs in controlling aggression after neutering. Once the dog is over 3, we've seen very little change as the behaviors are now learned.


Just wondering why you would be concerned that I have 2 males at home? Bernie's dog aggression is completely unrelated to this and extends beyond dogs to objects and anything that he's afraid of. Like I said, he's fear aggressive and will react just the same to a scary looking tree stump as he will to a dog. His issues are very well under control with behavior modification training and our fieldwork has worked wonders for him. He also seems to appropriately let dogs know to get away from him when he's uncomfortable with warning snaps and body language.


----------



## Max's Dad

The more I read this thread, the more I realize just how serious of a problem you are having with Oliver. These are very serious aggression issues. My opinion is that the idea that this condition is caused by a borderline, low thyroid, is wishful thinking. Furthermore, this behavior may be learned to such a degree that it cannot be changed. No Golden should have to be trained to not be aggressive. Did you mean to say "he pees on Bernie every time Bernie pees." Or merely marks where Bernie marks?

My thought is that your only hope is to neuter Oliver. I realize that you may consider this a last resort and extreme measure, especially because of your interest in conformation, but the number one priority is that Oliver be a "safe" dog. The aggression Oliver exhibits is completely outside the standard for a Golden Retriever.


----------



## Megora

coaraujo said:


> His dominant behaviors can be seen at home. He's an avid marker. Not just pee on every bush, but pees on Bernie every time Bernie pees kind of marker. He resource guards high value items with Bernie and will flaunt them. He'll take things he doesn't want that he knows Bernie wants and flaunt them in Bernie's face. When Bernie gets attention Oliver has to try and interrupt.


The parts I made green font - I think are normal when you have multiple dogs. 

The part before it in yellow - is a caution. Resource guarding between dogs over very high value items - can be expected, and you just control the situations and step in when you have shark eyes. 

Little things like the dogs rushing in to pounce on their toys when the other dogs are "looking" - that's resource guarding. But it's not really alarming in general if you have dogs backing off or it turns into the dogs playing tug and keep away with each other. 

The part in black - is funny. I don't know what to think of that if he's doing that on purpose - instead of it just being clumsy young male in a hurry to mark ASAP. 



> He's attacked Bernie over food/new toys before. In training Oliver does things on his own terms and blows me off a lot. Which is why we went back to basic obedience. I have no focus out of him anymore. All he does is sniff and mark. And now attacks other dogs. Tail up back arched in a "dominant" stance. When we've had my BF's brother's dogs over Oliver will chase them around the yard running right next to them hovering over them barking, like he's trying to let him know he's the boss. He does it whether we're at our house, or at their house, or someone elses house. Its like he needs to show he's the ring leader.


The parts in yellow - can be normal for a dog who is getting full of himself and is more dominant and pushy. It is a caution and should be "fixed" with management. Corrections.

Green is unfortunately normal for his age.... 

Red is unacceptable and needs management. Without going any further - this is aggressive behavior that he's exhibiting and reinforcing. 




> The aggression is because he goes from standing next to me paying attention to me to lunging to the other end of the leash trying to attack the other dog - Cujo status. One time during hunting training we were at the edge of class waiting our turn to be in the ring and he randomly took off after the dog in the ring. I wasn't expecting it because there was no reason for him to go after the dog so I lost the leash. And he chased the dog around the room snarling and hovering over him. I think maybe he was trying to tell him that the bumpers belonged to him.


 And I'll be very honest.... I'm a very nice and quiet handling dog owner. I believe in keeping your hands soft and training with praise and other rewards. 

But if my dog did this - I would be scruff shaking the whole way home. Far better for my dog to be scruff shaked and smacked by me than to be pepper-sprayed, kicked, shot, or who knows what other people would do to him if he got loose and exhibited "roar" around somebody else's dog. 

This is not a problem that will be fixed with just neutering and fixing the thyroid. It's a lot of management and asserting yourself as the boss. And asserting yourself as "boss" doesn't mean growling at the dogs or pinning them every day or not letting them be at your face level whether that's on your furniture or in your lap or any of that stuff. It means calm leadership and following up with swift correction when your dog shows a hint of posturing or unacceptable behaviors around you, your other dog, or other dogs at class. And obedience classes - every week.


----------



## Max's Dad

Hey Kate, FWIW, I can barely read your yellow or green comments on my computer.


----------



## coaraujo

Max's Dad said:


> The more I read this thread, the more I realize just how serious of a problem you are having with Oliver. These are very serious aggression issues. My opinion is that the idea that this condition is caused by a borderline, low thyroid, is wishful thinking. Furthermore, this behavior may be learned to such a degree that it cannot be changed. No Golden should have to be trained to not be aggressive. Did you mean to say "he pees on Bernie every time Bernie pees." Or merely marks where Bernie marks?
> 
> My thought is that your only hope is to neuter Oliver. I realize that you may consider this a last resort and extreme measure, especially because of your interest in conformation, but the number one priority is that Oliver be a "safe" dog. The aggression Oliver exhibits is completely outside the standard for a Golden Retriever.


His intention is to mark where Bernie marks, but he runs over there while Bernie is peeing and usually ends up peeing a bit on Bernie.


----------



## tine434

I do understand that behaviors are behaviors, but I want to add...
With Red, before his neuter he was 2 years old and would mark everything, pee ON Rem, he did growl if Rem came to the water bowl, he humped dogs, he wouldn't stop sniffing our female, and he had 0 concentration when he could be sniffing and marking instead...
Within 2 weeks post neuter all of those previous mentioned behaviors are gone.

Red was never aggressive, but it was amazing to see the change. I mean, it wasn't a whole new dog by any means. He still has his energy and all of that, he didn't calm down so much as he's just able to focus now and is more relaxed.

Disclaimer: just speaking from personal experience. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Megora

Max's Dad said:


> Hey Kate, FWIW, I can barely read your yellow or green comments on my computer.


I know. This is why this forum needs highlighters for posts.  

The red font text is the most important.


----------



## tine434

Megora said:


> I know. This is why this forum needs highlighters for posts.
> 
> The red font text is the most important.


I highlighted it to read lol

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Max's Dad

Megora said:


> I know. This is why this forum needs highlighters for posts.
> 
> The red font text is the most important.


Consider *bold*, _italics_ and underline.


----------



## aussieresc

coaraujo said:


> Just wondering why you would be concerned that I have 2 males at home? .


The rest of my statement was that you have 2 males at home that have displayed dog aggression. You are more likely to have a fight between 2 dogs of the same sex. Each dog is willing to be aggressive for their own reasons. Regardless of the reason the end result is the same - aggression.


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> The rest of my statement was that you have 2 males at home that have displayed dog aggression. You are more likely to have a fight between 2 dogs of the same sex. Each dog is willing to be aggressive for their own reasons. Regardless of the reason the end result is the same - aggression.


I see what you're saying now. But I guess I don't understand what this has to do with neutering.


----------



## aussieresc

This link explains some of the connections between aggression and neutering. Canine Aggression - Part 1


----------



## OutWest

I'm a little late to this thread, but after reading all the comments and your descriptions of Oliver's behavior, here is my two cents, as not a dog expert but the owner of two GRs with a handful of behavior issues.

The biggest concern I have is who exactly is evaluating Oliver? You say trainer, but is this person a certified animal behaviorist? There is a big, big, difference between the education levels needed to claim either title. If you haven't had Oliver evaluated by a behaviorist, I think that really is a crucial step to take. The one who worked with Bella explained her to me in very clear terms and gave me a training regimen for her. Trainers generally focus on changing or reinforcing behaviors but a behaviorist will decipher a dog and build a training program around the dog's needs, not the human's behavior requirements (a big generalized statement I know). I sense that you respect your trainer a great deal and he knows Oliver, and this is important but for problem behaviors, a professional behavior assessment is needed. A good place to start looking is here: Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists — Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior.

Checking his thyroid is an excellent step. You may need to convince your vet that what is normal for many breeds is low for GRs. It might be worth putting him on thyroid for a couple months just to see if there is a change in his behavior. 

Make sure nothing is hurting him (aches and pains) that might make him feel the need to protect himself and his turf. 

Re-read LJilly's post about the recommendations from Tuft's. They are excellent. Not sure if the low-protein diet is warranted if he's not fear aggressive (which you can't know if you haven't had him professionally evaluated) because that works best for those dogs. But it wouldn't hurt to try that with both your dogs--it has helped Bella a great deal. It's helped Bella.

Consider some medication such as Prozac (fluoxetine). It does help many dogs. Since we can't always know exactly what is going on with them chemically and emotionally, it's worth a shot.

I understand that you don't want him neutered, but truthfully if his problems persist most dog people would tell you he should not be bred. And although there is a lot of debate about neutering and possible effects on behavior, I fall into the camp that says neutering often does soften the behavior of male dogs--marking, aggression, competitiveness. At least it seemed to in Tucker. 

Last, don't rule out the possibility that Bernie's fear aggression has had an impact on Oliver. IMO, it would be almost impossible that it hasn't. If Bernie exudes fear when he sees a strange dog, Oliver is picking up on that. I see that in Tucker and Bella and that is the reason we generally walk them separately. And today I walked Tucker a few blocks over to my vet's office and was surprised to find him a a bit scared and freaky at things he didn't use to react to (I haven't walked him for a while--bad knee). I don't think he created that fear and insecurity all by himself--I think he picked it up from Bella. 

Sorry--I seem to have written a tome here! I think your training plan and how you're working with Oliver sounds good. It's clear you're supporting him in getting back to his old self. You have my sympathy because it's hard to have a much-loved dog that is difficult to handle. Good luck!


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> This link explains some of the connections between aggression and neutering. Canine Aggression - Part 1


I appreciate the link, but I'm not sure how I feel about the source. Isn't this kind of contradictory?

"Although male dogs are involved more often in aggression problems, neutering has little effect on this problem. Testosterone acts as a behavior modulator that makes dogs react more intensely. When an intact dog decides to react to something, he reacts more quickly, with greater intensity, and for a longer period of time. If the dog is reacting to a strange person or another dog, he will be quicker to bark, growl, or bite, and will continue for longer than a neutered male. (Overall, 1997) Castration decreases aggression in 62% of inter-dog aggression between male dogs. (Hopkins et. al., 1976)"

Are they saying not to neuter or to neuter? I'll continue to look for educational sources. 

I purchased the book Ljilly recommended and I'm going to speak with my vet. I highly respect my breeder and my trainer's opinion as they've both been working with GR's for 20+ years. Both said that neutering very rarely makes much of a difference. Usually it comes down to training. I do think seeing a certified behaviorist is a great idea. 

Thank you for the link and sharing your experience Outwest. Just as a side note I am not leaving him intact to breed. I'm in the camp who believes there are health benefits to leaving them intact (similar to what was stated in Eowyns post "4. Getting rid of 1/3 of his hormones/endocrine system can have a pretty big impact on his health and length of life. As long as Courtney is 100% sure is isn't going to be having any oops litters I don't think it is necessary."). I know thats a whole different debate in itself, but that's what I believe.


----------



## sdhgolden

To me that part you quoted means that neutering can possibly reduce the intensity of aggressive actions but does not necessarily reduce the aggression itself. If that makes sense. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## fostermom

I'm not going to weigh in on the neuter/don't neuter debate, though I have strong feelings on the topic.

I will say that I think the first step should be what was mentioned on the first page, get a complete thyroid panel and then send it off to Dr. Dodds if your vet believes that 1 is a normal reading. I would also suggest that you ask your vet or do the research yourself on whether Lyme's Disease could cause this sudden increase in aggressiveness. If nothing else, I would think it might contribute because Lyme's can cause overall aching and feeling pretty cruddy in humans, so I would think that would be the case in a dog, too.


----------



## coaraujo

Vet appointment made for next wednesday. Next step behaviorist consulation appointment. Brenda ALof's book just came in the mail. Looking forward to getting started on reading it tonight. I was reading this a bit today at work:

http://www.animalbehaviorassociates.com/pdf/freeart1.pdf

thought it was interesting. The dominance aggression best describes Oliver.


----------



## inge

How is he? And how are you? Thinking of you guys...


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> Vet appointment made for next wednesday. Next step behaviorist consulation appointment. Brenda ALof's book just came in the mail. Looking forward to getting started on reading it tonight. I was reading this a bit today at work:
> 
> http://www.animalbehaviorassociates.com/pdf/freeart1.pdf
> 
> thought it was interesting. The dominance aggression best describes Oliver.


Glad you are getting I put from some good experts. Wanted to add--it's really best for the behaviorist to evaluate Oliver in your home as well as out and about. His behavior is one part of a complex whole and the recommendations should take into account all the humans and animals he lives with, and how they interact together. Hope all this stuff helps you and Oliver!


----------



## coaraujo

We had training class last night and after reading some of the Alof's book on aggression I was paying close attention to Oliver's body language. He was giving off a lot of signs that he was stressed out. He was panting rapidly with his lips pulled back with tension in his face. When we got inside and I sat down he was jumping all over me frantically almost in a panicky way. The muscle ridges around his mouth were swollen. He wasn't interested in regular treats, only especially high value treats, and even that he spat out first before he'd take it. He calmed down with some time as we worked. We work on the outside of class while everyone's inside the ring. We heel and work on focus with friendly dogs set up near us. Slowly getting closer and closer to the gate and see how Oliver does. He started out growly, but improved as class went on. He continued to have major issues with the German Shepherd in class. He growled at the Irish Wolfhound as it left class for a bathroom break, but as it walked back in I stuffed his face with liverwurst before he could get a reaction in as he watched him walk by. Then later, when class ended, my trainer had us sit by the exit as all the dogs left as a test for Oliver as I treated him for acting positively. He laid in a down stay perfect for every dog not reacting, even the Irish Wolfhound. He did well with the German Shepherd, but unfortunately the lady's purse was near us so she had to come closer to us to get it. That was too close for Oliver and he growled and lashed out. Soooo i dont know. Still processing everything. But he was extremely stressed out after that encounter. I don't know how I feel about the dominance diagnosis anymore. I am trying to set up an appointment with the behaviorist for Monday. I think Bernie will be coming too. I'm not sure, I need to get more details from the behaviorist. We had our vet appt today. Oliver got stung by a bee this morning so it got pushed ahead a bit. We're doing full bloodwork to test everything. My vet doesn't think anythings going to come up. He said Oliver looks to be in perfect health, well muscled, good weight, coat is in good condition. He doesn't think the Lyme disease is contributing because Oliver was very limber and not sensitive to his limbs being stretched and poked/prodded. He said usually he'd say yes to that being the cause if he were expressing signs of being uncomfortable or being in pain. He too agrees that neutering is a good idea. He said typically he sees this kind of thing with terrier breeds, not goldens, and neutering helps. He also said if we are neutering both Bernie and Oliver to make sure we don't neuter Bernie first because that could possibly lead Oliver to pick on Bernie at home. We don't have any issues with Oliver picking on Bernie, unless you count him teasing with a toy?


PHEW long post. A lot has happened. Its just that, after seeing how much Bernie has improved in his fear reactivity with training, i'm so reluctant to neuter to "fix" the problem. If I don't have to alter my dog to make him better I don't want to.


----------



## Max's Dad

coaraujo said:


> A lot has happened. Its just that, after seeing how much Bernie has improved in his fear reactivity with training, i'm so reluctant to neuter to "fix" the problem.* If I don't have to alter my dog to make him better I don't want to*.


You have a Golden Retriever that is exhibiting serious aggression issues. These aggression issues began after he matured. You cannot get him through a training class without filling him with high value treats. He is marking on your other dog. It seems likely the next event could be very well be Oliver attacking another dog and getting into a serious dog fight. Bernie could be the one attacked. Our worse yet, a human could get bitten. Plus you state that the aggressive behavior has been going on for several months. 

At 1 year 9 months, Oliver is completely mature. He is full grown and his growth plates have closed. 

Now your vet has also recommended neutering as something that may help solve the problem. Yet, you are still reluctant to neuter. Or are you going to wait for something catastrophic to happen? Sorry to be so blunt, but it seems to me you have no other options.


----------



## coaraujo

Max's Dad said:


> You have a Golden Retriever that is exhibiting serious aggression issues. These aggression issues began after he matured. *You cannot get him through a training class without filling him with high value treats*. He is marking on your other dog. It seems likely the next event could be very well be Oliver attacking another dog and getting into a serious dog fight. Bernie could be the one attacked. Our worse yet, a human could get bitten. Plus you state that the aggressive behavior has been going on for several months.
> 
> At 1 year 9 months, Oliver is completely mature. He is full grown and his growth plates have closed.
> 
> Now your vet has also recommended neutering as something that may help solve the problem. Yet, you are still reluctant to neuter. Or are you going to wait for something catastrophic to happen? Sorry to be so blunt, but it seems to me you have no other options.


According to you, yes I apparently am waiting for something catastrophic to happen first. Or you could see by my posts that I am 1. ruling out health issues 2. making an appointment with a behaviorist to get him appropriately assessed before making a drastic decision that requires surgery and the removal of part of my dogs endocrine system. 3. gathering information from reputable sources like my vet, breeder, trainer, and literature. You have stated very clearly your opinion on this issue. I appreciate your input but I don't think its necessary for comments as drastic as the ones you continue posting. If my dog is, in fact, not acting out aggressively because of his age and it is stress induced (which we will find out as soon as we get in with the behaviorist) then neutering will likely not make much of a difference, instead it will be months and months of conditioning and training. Its not so black and white that Oliver either kills other dogs or is neutered.. 

Referring to the statement I bolded above. Thats actually exactly what it usually takes when you start working with a reactive dog. And many others who have worked with reactive dogs would agree. Yes aggression isn't normal behavior, but going through 3 or 4 bags of treats in class to counter condition aggressive and reactive behavior is part of the process. Eventually you don't need to do that any more. That's how we started with Bernie, now with the exception of some dogs that make him especially nervous, he is happy and playful with all dogs, no treats necessary.

This is a difficult situation to deal with I don't appreciate the harassment.


----------



## Max's Dad

Mine intent was not to harass you. I apologize if I have offended you. You have described aggressive behavior in Oliver that is far outside the norm for a Golden Retriever. Like you, I am concerned about Oliver. You came to this thread asking for advice. I have given my advice and will no longer post in this thread. I can only wish you the best of luck in getting Oliver's issues resolved.


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> We had training class last night and after reading some of the Alof's book on aggression I was paying close attention to Oliver's body language. He was giving off a lot of signs that he was stressed out. He was panting rapidly with his lips pulled back with tension in his face. When we got inside and I sat down he was jumping all over me frantically almost in a panicky way. The muscle ridges around his mouth were swollen. He wasn't interested in regular treats, only especially high value treats, and even that he spat out first before he'd take it.


I hope the behaviorist is able to give you a good diagnosis. The description above sounds very similar to Bella, who has fear aggression. Essentially, for whatever (often unclear to me) reason, she will feel threatened and anxious, become very needy with me or become very bark-y and aggressive seeming to all around us. 

Hope you are able to get to the bottom of this soon. I know you want your sweet Oliver back.


----------



## coaraujo

Max's Dad said:


> Mine intent was not to harass you. I apologize if I have offended you. You have described aggressive behavior in Oliver that is far outside the norm for a Golden Retriever. Like you, I am concerned about Oliver. You came to this thread asking for advice. I have given my advice and will no longer post in this thread. I can only wish you the best of luck in getting Oliver's issues resolved.


I appreciate this. I just want to make sure that I am treating the *route*of the problem. Not just neutering. I understand how serious the issue is and will do what is necessary to help Oliver. Maybe its going to be a combination of neutering and training, who knows. I just don't want to jump into serious decisions or feel pressured to do anything I'm not comfortable doing.


----------



## coaraujo

Today I had my appointment with the behaviorist. She is a VMD, DACVB. It was quite the appointment. It was almost 2 hours long and we covered a lot. We basically went over a history of Oliver's whole life, all of his training classes. How is interactions were with other dogs in those classes, if Bernie was present, what kind of training methods were used. We talked about his socialization, his home life (moving, living in different places, with me, with my boyfriend, etc). How he acts in new places vs at home. How he acts with familiar people vs new people. She watched me train with him and had me demonstrate some of the strategies I do when he acts out aggressively in class. She had a 9 page packet filled out from me that I had given her prior to the visit that she had already gone through detailing Oliver's history and examples of prior aggressive attacks. It was very thorough. 

The one thing she said to me that really stuck out is that his temperament is sad. Not literally sad, but that it's sad that he has the kind of temperament that he does. And he is a great dog, he really is, I love him to death. But that statement kind of clicked for me. An image of Sunday's hunting training flashed through my head and I pictured one of our fellow forum member's dogs (Boomers Dawn) Gladys after she was done with her run. She was such a doll just asking everyone for belly rubs, loving life - eating up the attention. Oliver is like that at home with people he is familiar with and knows. But people he doesn't know, he's much too afraid. He's very tentative and gets nervous about people even reaching out to pet him. I don't know if he'd just roll over for a belly rub like that. Definitely not what you'd expect from a GR. 

He was very nervous about the behaviorist, even after being there for 2 hours, he'd stand far away and reach his neck out to sniff all nervous. He wouldn't take treats from her. That's how is he with new people and in new places. Kind of crouches low and tentatively walks around sniffing, alert and nervous. She had us walk down an empty hallway to watch me train with him. He was so nervous, peering through every new doorway wondering what was behind each one. She said he definitely is not a very confident dog, and he also doesn't look for to me when he gets nervous. A couple of times he heard another dog outside and started to bark and get nervous. She said that we want him to get to the point where he looks to me for reassurance right now he clearly thinks he needs to protect himself. She's said he's fear-aggressive and that part of his reaction could definitely be learned from Bernie. So she recommends keeping them separated when training when either of them could get reactive. It'll be better for both of their progress. She said that dogs learn a lot more from each other than from people so when he saw his big brother react one way in a situation he learned that behavior, and now he's using those behaviors and they're working by creating more space and he's getting reinforcement for the aggression. It sounds like because of how nervous and timid Oliver is we should have done a lot more socialization with him. We did a lot of training with him and were always in training class, but never really socialized outside of it besides with family and familiy's pets. Always worked on focus only on me. She said that its also important for the dogs to have positive interactions together so they learn appropriate interactions with puppies, with older dogs, with dogs of different breeds/sizes/etc. Same with people. 

We are going to start a training program with him. A lot of positive energy. She said Oliver knows a lot and is a very smart dog, but needs to work on applying everything he knows. She said that she doesn't think our current strategies are the best for Oliver. She really didn't like his reaction to being put in a down. She also doesn't like the idea of having the leash around his waste and walking him backwards. She said that backing up from the other dog never really with help. Turning away or changing focus, or redirecting are all much better options. She recommended a different leash/collar option if strength is an issue. I think I'm going to go back to the front clip harness. I like that one the best for pulling. She also doesn't like "Leave It". She said I say it too sternly, and negatively. Which, for this context isn't what we want. So we're going to teach "Mind your business" in a happier tone so that when he starts getting growly he knows that the growl is not a bad thing and I'm happy he let me know but we're going to move right along now and he needs to mind his business type of thing. I'm reassuring him that its okay and he's to leave it. 

We talked about his health history, diet, and neutering as well. She doesn't think the Lyme is contributing. She thinks because of all the behavior issues listed above its a fear based thing. I get the blood work back from my vet hopefully tomorrow. We had to go back in today for redraw because something went wrong. We went over his diet and she seemed happy with it. I explained the supplements I use and how I balance the different types of meats/bone etc and did a lot of research. I asked her about the dominance thing and she said that with dominance its more of a case by case thing not an overall behavior. Like you'll see a dog be dominant 2 times out of 10 in interactions with other dogs, but the dog itself isn't classified as dominant. It depends on the situation and other factors. Or at least that was what I was gathering. She said that typically dogs who are generalized as dominant overall are very confident dogs, who walk in the room and can just give another dog a look and the other dogs know to let the other dog be in control if that makes sense. Clearly not Oliver. I asked if neutering would help at all even though Oliver isn't the dominant case and she said that with nervous dogs neutering can actually make them more worried/nervous. Sometimes having the hormones helps a bit with their confidence. So now that makes me wonder if I should neuter Bernie either. Because he's got fear issues too and I was debating neutering him, but the fact that it could make him more anxious?!

My head is still somewhat spinning from the meeting. Still taking everything in. I feel like I've caused all of this. My poor dogs have all of these social anxiety issues because of me. I will get them all the help they need.


----------



## sdhgolden

Don't beat yourself up. Going to a vet behaviorist is the best thing you could do. They can work wonders! They are better than any trainer you could go to because they can analyze EVERY aspect of your dog and back up their findings. Just don't loose faith in the process. It takes time but you will see changes and improvement if you keep at it. Which it sounds like you will. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## aussieresc

Glad you met with a behaviorist and she spent such quality time with you. Did you meet the parents of both your boys? Did you say they were close in age?


----------



## inge

You are the best dog-mom he could have!


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

Sounds like you have made a lot of progress just in understanding what is causing some of Oliver's issues.


----------



## pb2b

You are doing great by your dogs! Some dogs, like people just need extra help.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OutWest

Sounds like a LOT of information to process. Don't blame yourself at all--you are the solution here, not the problem. Be sure to continue to educate yourself by reading good books on dog behavior, discussing in places like this, etc. No one knows your dogs as well as you do and ultimately you need to decide the best approach for their training. I found a FB site recently called Fearful Dogs (can't recall if I've already mentioned that) which you might find useful too--some very good discussions on there. 

Your behaviorist sounds very, good and I hope you find all of the input helpful to both your dogs. Best wishes!


----------



## coaraujo

This week has been crazy busy at work so I haven't had time to catch up with everyone's posts and messages, but I apprecaite them all and I can't wait to read them (jsut wanted to say thanks!)

Quick update. Bloodwork results came back. Olivers T4 was 1.3 My vet considered that low-normal. Wasn't concerned though. I brought up my concerns with it being low-normal and golden retrievers being lower, etc. And idk I wasn't happy with what he had to say. So I'm asking my behaviorist for her opinion since she's also a vet. My vet didnt' think we should do further thyroid testing. But I'm kind of wondering if sending out to hemopet and having Dr. Jean Dodds take a look woudl be a good idea. My vet said since Oliver isn't showing any signs of hypothyroidism it isn't necessary. Usually you'd get concerned with them being low normal if they're showing at least one sign and low-normal. Um hello - out of character aggression?! Also the fearfulness is out of character. He was a very happy confident puppy. I mean maybe it developed over time in a phobia, but maybe it is related to his thyroid. 

I read this:
DODDS-BEHV-THYROID
*"Current Behavioral Issues*

In recent years, clinicians have noted the sudden onset of behavioral changes in dogs around the time of puberty or as young adults. Most of the animals have been purebreds or crossbreeds with an apparent predilection for certain breeds. Neutering these animals usually does not alter the symptoms and the behaviors may even intensify. Many of these dogs belong to certain breeds or dog families susceptible to a variety of immune problems and allergies (e.g. Golden Retriever, Akita, Rottweiler, Doberman Pinscher, English Springer Spaniel, Shetland Sheepdog, and German Shepherd Dog). The clinical signs in these animals, before they show the sudden onset of *behavioral aggression*, can include minor problems such as inattentiveness, *fearfulness*, seasonal allergies, skin and coat disorders (e.g. pyoderma, allergic inhalant or ectoparasite dermatitis, alopecia, and intense itching). These may be early subtle signs of thyroid dysfunction, with no other typical signs of thyroid disease being manifested.
The typical history starts out with a quite, well-mannered and sweet-natured puppy or young adult dog. The animal was outgoing, attended training classes for obedience, working, or dog show events, and came from a reputable breeder whose kennel has had no prior history of producing animals with behavioral problems. *At the onset of puberty or thereafter, however, sudden changes in personality are observed*. Typical signs can be incessant whining, *nervousness*, schizoid behavior, *fear in the presence of strangers, hyperventilating* and undue sweating, disorientation, and *failure to be attentive* (canine cognitive dysfunction). *These changes can progress to sudden unprovoked aggressiveness in unfamiliar situations with other animals,* people and especially with children."

Just makes me think it warrants further testing. I asked the my behaviorist. We'll see what she says.


----------



## Loisiana

I only send my thyroid tests to hemopet, I only use my vet to pull the blood for me. I find most vets don't understand thyroid problems in dogs very well.


----------



## coaraujo

Loisiana said:


> I only send my thyroid tests to hemopet, I only use my vet to pull the blood for me. I find most vets don't understand thyroid problems in dogs very well.


I'm starting to question quite a bit of what my vet understands well... thank you. So do I just go back to my vet, ask for a redraw and ask them to send it to hemopet or is there a specific process? The information is probably on the hemopet site. I will go look there. Thank you again


----------



## Loisiana

yeah, it's on the website, I have the vet draw the blood and spin it as the directions say, and then I go mail it off myself.


----------



## Loisiana

I talked my mom into getting her dog tested. The vet thought it was a waste of time - said dogs with low thyroid don't have much of an appetite and therefore wouldn't be food aggressive like my mom's dog is. :doh:

The dog is now on thyroid meds. Even the vet agreed the results were low.


----------



## coaraujo

Loisiana said:


> I talked my mom into getting her dog tested. The vet thought it was a waste of time - said dogs with low thyroid don't have much of an appetite and therefore wouldn't be food aggressive like my mom's dog is. :doh:
> 
> The dog is now on thyroid meds. Even the vet agreed the results were low.


 
Maybe I should get Bernie tested too. And he's always itchy and we've had a ton of skin issues with him. I asked my vet about testing him and his response was "he's so young we don't see thyroid issues in dogs his age" I mean it obviously isn't going to solve all our problems, but I personally don't mind spending the money on the test for the sake of my dogs. He has the aggression issues too. I mean who knows.


----------



## Loisiana

I think all goldens should be tested, I don't do it yearly but I do try to test every 2-3 years, even in dogs with no symptoms.


----------



## inge

I learned a long time ago with Tess only to go for the expert's opinion...the first time Tess had an MMM attack it was not properly diagnosed. The second time blood was sent to the expert, and we could start treating her. We still have our ups and downs, but her blood always gets sent out to the expert, period.


----------



## coaraujo

Thank you both, I'm going to have bloodwork on both of them sent in. With the amount of stress this is causing me the peace of mind will be worth it. I'm emotionally drained. And I'm getting frustrated that I don't feel like I have the support of my vets with me. Oh well.


----------



## inge

You have the brains and support of the Golden Community...and I know that vets are important, but I have learnt like many others, that sometimes the support and ideas of the Forum help you to take a hurdle.


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> Glad you met with a behaviorist and she spent such quality time with you. Did you meet the parents of both your boys? Did you say they were close in age?


I met the dam and granddam of Oliver, along with some of his other relatives. I didn't meet any of Bernie's parents. Bernie and Oliver are about 2 months apart so yes very close in age.


----------



## Our3dogs

If after getting the results back from Hemopet, and if it turns out she says the thyroid is low and should be treated - don't be surprised if your vet still disagrees with the findings and treatment. I've heard that same scenario many times here on the forum. You might need to really stand your ground and insist upon it with your vet. Not all vets are open-minded, and if it does not go along with what they feel the situation is, they are not very cooperative. Good luck to you and everything you are doing for your 2 guys!


----------



## Ljilly28

2 concepts I think are helpful with aggressive dogs ( and little kids too!): Threshhold & Trigger Stacking. 

The other concept of trigger-stacking is so useful. The idea is to recognize when your dog has multiple stressors, and how that can create a reactive moment. 

For example, maybe you are running late in the morning and forget to feed the dog, and by coincidence that is the same day the dog goes to the groomer, and then there was a thunderstorm on the way home. Before dinner, a friend stops by with a new puppy. Finally, you take the dog to obedience class after dinner, and BOOM he has a reactive moment that seems out of the blue. 

It is not really the class or that dog in the class who seems to be the trigger, but rather the sum- total of triggers that stacked up. The dog may well have weathered a few of them commendably earlier in the day. When you think about trigger stacking, it gets easier to decide not to let the firend visit with the new pup on the same night as class etc. 

A dog can be over the threshhold of what he can tolerate without going over the top even for joyful reasons. In a multiple dog situation, I don't love seeing anyone get near threshold, even if it is happy cuckoo playing unless I know every dog by heart. 

Some dogs go over threshhold by being behind a fence or gait and seeing a cat, squirrel bike rider on the other side; Some dogs go over threshold when the doorbell rings or when company comes. Some dogs have lower thresholds on leash. 

There are also dogs who are very sturdy and resilient, and it is wonderfully difficult to even find their thresholds. 

Dogs can change raise and lower their thresholds. For example neutering a type of male dog might pad his threshhold, and he will be a little more easygoing or an easygoing dog may develop an ear infection and be in pain that the owner doesnt realize etc.

BAT and CU etc are training theories aimed to expand your dog's threshold, and make for more resilience.


----------



## readmeli

Wow I just caught up on this thread and kudos to you OP for what you are doing for your dog! Amazing. Aggression is so confusing for us, especially with all the "dominance" theory out there. It is hard to figure out but sounds like you are ON THE RIGHT PATH.

I have gone through a terrible time with my pup, reminds me a lot of yours, so I wish you well and you are doing things properly now with the trainer, and listening to the advice on here. WAY TO GO!!!

I'd look into meds like Prozac or something... perhaps the trainer will bring that up. I am certain if I had started meds sooner with my pup we would not have gotten so far off track so quickly. Do it... research it, look into it - it can save your life and your dogs life.


----------



## coaraujo

Thanks LJilly for the post, I think those concepts are really important and are definitely things I overlook and need to be especially careful of (especially considering I have two aggressive dogs). 

The results are in from hemopet and interestingly enough they BOTH came back hypothyroid. I wasn't really expecting that. I'm really happy I decided to test Bernie at the last second! Here are the results. Bernie was much lower than Oliver. I wonder if with treatment we'll see any differences behaviorally with him? We've already seen huge improvements just with training. Maybe this will also help? And hopefully it helps his itchyness. Oliver wasn't quite so low, on the lower end of the normal range, but outside the recommended range based on hemopets reference range. I actually also just got off the phone with my vet. They are getting the medication for the boys so it'll be ready for tomorrow. They agree with treating Bernie since he's definitely on the low end, and said if I want to treat Oliver they'll fully support that as well. We talked about the risk of over supplementation because I want to know what to look out for in case they're getting too much thyroid hormone. I don't think that its going to be the case becasue we're starting them at lower than the recommended dose. So it should bump them up just the amount they need I think. But I like to be ready because medications make me nervous. I was just diagnosed as hypothryoid last week. Looks like the whole family is!

Things I need to continue to work on with Oliver:
Taking him for walks so he can see dogs out and about and have positive experiences with dogs at safe distances.
Go to new environments and play fun games so he can start feeling more comfortable in new places.
Work on teaching "Mind your Business" happy/more positive Leave It. That way we can incorporate it into our walks and eventually into possible reactive encounters. 

View attachment HML63604_Bernie.pdf


View attachment HML63605_Oliver.pdf


And on an unfortunate note, not sure if it has anything to do with the health issues going on, but Bernie's been especially resource-guardy lately over food. He's attacked Oliver twice in the past two weeks. We hadn't had an incident since he was on steroid medicine that made him go wacky. But last week we fed Bernie outside on the porch and Oliver inside. We tried to let Oliver outside (everyone was done eating, nothing was left - no bowls) and Oliver wouldn't budge. I guess Bernie was giving off some signals of "Don't come out here or else" We completely missed the signs and scooted Oliver outside to potty. Instantly Bernie attacked him :no:. Then it happend again this weekend. This time the boys were fed in the same room, on opposite sides. After they were both done bowls were instantly picked up (I don't let them lick each others bowls). Oliver came over to sniff where Bernie had eaten and they growled at each other and boom - they went at it. This was NEVER an issue before. We even used to let them lick each others bowls, but I had stopped that just because I see no need. Oliver always waits patiently for Bernie to finish his food. There's nothing left for Bernie to guard, I don't understand. So now I'm hand feeding both of them. I say "Oliver" and he gets a piece of food. Then I say "Bernie" and he gets a piece of food. Butts are sitting politely on the ground. After its gone I release them with "All gone" and they trot in the living room to wipe their faces on the carpet (sanitary I know:yuck. I'm in charge of food and resources. We need to all respect our space. Things can't get any crazier can they.


----------



## Ljilly28

I love hearing you say "I am in charge of all resources!" That is definitely the path to sanity. 

I really feel for you, but I also believe there is lots of hope to get it under control, especially if there are no bites or level one only bites. You don't mention vet visits from these scuffles? We have to remember, each dog COULD try to inflict fatal damage, and give them credit they are inhibiting these bite to communicate with each other more than hurt each other. It is still extremely scary, and there is a sense almost of betrayal when housemate dogs go after each other.

You might have to do a cooling off time period, in which these dogs do not see each other and each does Ruff Love with you. Some pit bull people live this way gladly- they call it "crate and rotate". It sounds difficult, and it is no fun when we choose goldens partly for how easy they are supposed to be to manage, but this escalation makes it seem like you might have to let one be the main dog and one dog be crated while you work on your relationship and obedience with each independently. 

I absolutely love the book Click To Calm by Emma Parsons, even if not for the aggressive dog techniques but from the basically therapy session of her confiding how mortified she was to be a dog trainer with an aggressive golden, and how her hands would shake if another dog came her way to the point she started triggering what she wanted to prevent. She ended up being successful with that dog, and the book chronicals her journey. 

I am going to a seminar next weekend with a trainer who managed and trained a wolf pack for Busch gardens, and it is about group-contigent training, and the technical skills of how to build tolerance and avoid squables etc. I will let you know if anything pertinent comes up there. 

I am really sorry you have to deal with this, and it is alot of responsibility and worry for you. I also think these dogs are very lucky- you are on top of their health and learning everything you can from many angles.


----------



## coaraujo

Ljilly28 said:


> I love hearing you say "I am in charge of all resources!" That is definitely the path to sanity.
> 
> I really feel for you, but I also believe there is lots of hope to get it under control, especially if there are no bites or level one only bites. You don't mention vet visits from these scuffles? We have to remember, each dog COULD try to inflict fatal damage, and give them credit they are inhibiting these bite to communicate with each other more than hurt each other. It is still extremely scary, and there is a sense almost of betrayal when housemate dogs go after each other.
> *There have been two incidence where marks were left from scuffles. One was when Bernie was on steroid medicine and I would describe them as "graze" marks. Little marks on Oliver's nose. The second was from when my BF's parents were watching the dogs. They took the two over to their other son's house to play with his to GSP (their other son was at work). Upon introduction our two got aggressive with one of the GSP (it was not a good set up - kind of doomed for two fear aggressive goldens ). From what his parents described Oliver was on one side and Bernie was on the other snapping and snarling. I think the bite would be a level one bite? It didn't require a vet visit. We don't know which dog did it. We were in Florida at the time. That incident is what spurred the creation of this thread and just all of what I've been doing. Other than that it's a lot of drama I think. We always separate them extremely quickly, I don't know what would happen if we didn't. Does that change things? Like if they'd bite each other more if we didn't separate them? Or if they were going to bite, they'd do it from the get-go? I've gotten bit a few times being in the middle of them. Its never broken the skin, left a little bruise. So I don't know if that's an indicator of how hard they're biting each other.*
> 
> You might have to do a cooling off time period, in which these dogs do not see each other and each does Ruff Love with you. Some pit bull people live this way gladly- they call it "crate and rotate". It sounds difficult, and it is no fun when we choose goldens partly for how easy they are supposed to be to manage, but this escalation makes it seem like you might have to let one be the main dog and one dog be crated while you work on your relationship and obedience with each independently.
> *Its weird because they seem to love each other so much. When my BF and I lived separately not too long ago, at first we kept the dogs separate, and they'd go off their food. So then we kept the dogs together switching who had them every other week. They still snuggle and clean each other and play wrestle and seem to love each other. After these confrontations literally 60 seconds later they'll be sleeping together on the same bed . Would the crate and rotate concept still be a good idea?*
> 
> I absolutely love the book Click To Calm by Emma Parsons, even if not for the aggressive dog techniques but from the basically therapy session of her confiding how mortified she was to be a dog trainer with an aggressive golden, and how her hands would shake if another dog came her way to the point she started triggering what she wanted to prevent. She ended up being successful with that dog, and the book chronicals her journey.
> *I'm going to buy this.*
> 
> I am going to a seminar next weekend with a trainer who managed and trained a wolf pack for Busch gardens, and it is about group-contigent training, and the technical skills of how to build tolerance and avoid squables etc. I will let you know if anything pertinent comes up there.
> 
> I am really sorry you have to deal with this, and it is alot of responsibility and worry for you. I also think these dogs are very lucky- you are on top of their health and learning everything you can from many angles.


Overall I wanted to thank you for your post and all the advice and educational information/sources you've provided, its really appreciated! I commented specifically on some things above.


----------



## tippykayak

I'm with LJilly here. I'd do crate and rotate for a week at least. I think they may be feeding off each other's bad mojo, and it might be a good idea to change the routine. If they continue to scuffle, it may start to pattern and/or escalate, and that is the situation you want to avoid at all costs. In some situations, I might advise letting the dogs work it out, but your boys don't seem like they can really do that right now.

Rotating might reduce any trigger stacking that's happening, and after a week or two, you can try giving them a supervised hour or two together each day.

Thyroid supplementation might really help, though I would still come at this as a behavioral issue with a full training regimen so the meds and the training support the same goal.

Lastly, I would neuter both dogs. I am neither a vet or a behaviorist, but in my experience, it can take the edge off a confrontational male dog, and I would personally do it before either dog gets badly injured. I know that suggestion has been made before and it's not the direction you really want to go. It's also not a proven solution to this kind of problem. But it is absolutely what I would personally do.


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> Thanks LJilly for the post, I think those concepts are really important and are definitely things I overlook and need to be especially careful of (especially considering I have two aggressive dogs).
> 
> The results are in from hemopet and interestingly enough they BOTH came back hypothyroid. I wasn't really expecting that. I'm really happy I decided to test Bernie at the last second! Here are the results. Bernie was much lower than Oliver. I wonder if with treatment we'll see any differences behaviorally with him? We've already seen huge improvements just with training. Maybe this will also help? And hopefully it helps his itchyness. Oliver wasn't quite so low, on the lower end of the normal range, but outside the recommended range based on hemopets reference range. I actually also just got off the phone with my vet. They are getting the medication for the boys so it'll be ready for tomorrow. They agree with treating Bernie since he's definitely on the low end, and said if I want to treat Oliver they'll fully support that as well. We talked about the risk of over supplementation because I want to know what to look out for in case they're getting too much thyroid hormone. I don't think that its going to be the case becasue we're starting them at lower than the recommended dose. So it should bump them up just the amount they need I think. But I like to be ready because medications make me nervous. I was just diagnosed as hypothryoid last week. Looks like the whole family is!
> 
> Things I need to continue to work on with Oliver:
> Taking him for walks so he can see dogs out and about and have positive experiences with dogs at safe distances.
> Go to new environments and play fun games so he can start feeling more comfortable in new places.
> Work on teaching "Mind your Business" happy/more positive Leave It. That way we can incorporate it into our walks and eventually into possible reactive encounters.
> 
> View attachment 416114
> 
> 
> View attachment 416122
> 
> 
> And on an unfortunate note, not sure if it has anything to do with the health issues going on, but Bernie's been especially resource-guardy lately over food. He's attacked Oliver twice in the past two weeks. We hadn't had an incident since he was on steroid medicine that made him go wacky. But last week we fed Bernie outside on the porch and Oliver inside. We tried to let Oliver outside (everyone was done eating, nothing was left - no bowls) and Oliver wouldn't budge. I guess Bernie was giving off some signals of "Don't come out here or else" We completely missed the signs and scooted Oliver outside to potty. Instantly Bernie attacked him :no:. Then it happend again this weekend. This time the boys were fed in the same room, on opposite sides. After they were both done bowls were instantly picked up (I don't let them lick each others bowls). Oliver came over to sniff where Bernie had eaten and they growled at each other and boom - they went at it. This was NEVER an issue before. We even used to let them lick each others bowls, but I had stopped that just because I see no need. Oliver always waits patiently for Bernie to finish his food. There's nothing left for Bernie to guard, I don't understand. So now I'm hand feeding both of them. I say "Oliver" and he gets a piece of food. Then I say "Bernie" and he gets a piece of food. Butts are sitting politely on the ground. After its gone I release them with "All gone" and they trot in the living room to wipe their faces on the carpet (sanitary I know:yuck. I'm in charge of food and resources. We need to all respect our space. Things can't get any crazier can they.


I've been out of pocket for a few days so just read through all that you've accomplished. You've done a lot! You probably still feel "in the thick of things" but it sounds to me like you've got a good handle on what's needed. Both of the special trainers/behaviorists I consulted said to never let the dogs lick each other's bowls. It just leads to possessiveness I think. I like your hand feeding technique. I may try that. I hope the thyroid meds help. Prob won't fix everything, but I hope they help!


----------



## llbeanster

We adopted a Golden of 1.5yrs... he's ~2.5yrs now and when I'm home (the alpha male), he sleeps on the floor mostly, is well behaved and doesn't really show aggression.
When I get back to my run of night shifts... our dog is good up until bed time when he jumps on our bed, starts barking at my wife, rather loudly at times. She has pinned him to the bed a couple times to show dominance, but mostly puts him in the crate to sleep, or walks out to the kitchen where he follows, then closes the door to the bedroom behind her. After some barking (several minutes at times) he eventually settles down and goes to sleep.
I just don't like what goes on when I'm not there... I know there's no abuse and we all love him, I just wish he'd behave with her when I'm away at night.
I'm not sure if he's still trying to be #2 in the pack, or has separation anxiety but it only seems like once she's trying to go to bed. He'll get up, dig on the sheets sometimes, or just stretch out near her, then get more rowdy and eventually start barking at her. 
I'm seeing talk of testing the thyroid.... any other suggs??? We love him to death, walk him, give him love, etc., but just wish he'd behave when she wants to sleep.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## thorbreafortuna

llbeanster said:


> We adopted a Golden of 1.5yrs... he's ~2.5yrs now and when I'm home (the alpha male), he sleeps on the floor mostly, is well behaved and doesn't really show aggression.
> When I get back to my run of night shifts... our dog is good up until bed time when he jumps on our bed, starts barking at my wife, rather loudly at times. She has pinned him to the bed a couple times to show dominance, but mostly puts him in the crate to sleep, or walks out to the kitchen where he follows, then closes the door to the bedroom behind her. After some barking (several minutes at times) he eventually settles down and goes to sleep.
> I just don't like what goes on when I'm not there... I know there's no abuse and we all love him, I just wish he'd behave with her when I'm away at night.
> I'm not sure if he's still trying to be #2 in the pack, or has separation anxiety but it only seems like once she's trying to go to bed. He'll get up, dig on the sheets sometimes, or just stretch out near her, then get more rowdy and eventually start barking at her.
> I'm seeing talk of testing the thyroid.... any other suggs??? We love him to death, walk him, give him love, etc., but just wish he'd behave when she wants to sleep.
> Thanks in advance.



I'm not speaking from experience here so I hope you get more responses but to me what you describe doesn't sound like aggression. It sounds more like anxiety. I'm sure others can give you more advice, and forgive me if these things are already happening, but my intuition is that it would help if your wife worked on forming a closer bond with him even while you're home. She can work on being a confident leader as well: Do more of the training with him using positive reinforcement. It would also help if she abandoned the idea of showing dominance which is counterproductive and may be adding to the anxiety. When he's acting up she could use commands to ask him to lie down and stay, reward him for doing so until he's calm. My guess is that if he's only showing this behavior in specific, predictable circumstances, it's probably not health related and more behavioral. Of course, it can't hurt to check 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ljilly28

great post


----------



## Selli-Belle

llbeanster said:


> We adopted a Golden of 1.5yrs... he's ~2.5yrs now and when I'm home (the alpha male), he sleeps on the floor mostly, is well behaved and doesn't really show aggression.
> When I get back to my run of night shifts... our dog is good up until bed time when he jumps on our bed, starts barking at my wife, rather loudly at times. She has pinned him to the bed a couple times to show dominance, but mostly puts him in the crate to sleep, or walks out to the kitchen where he follows, then closes the door to the bedroom behind her. After some barking (several minutes at times) he eventually settles down and goes to sleep.
> I just don't like what goes on when I'm not there... I know there's no abuse and we all love him, I just wish he'd behave with her when I'm away at night.
> I'm not sure if he's still trying to be #2 in the pack, or has separation anxiety but it only seems like once she's trying to go to bed. He'll get up, dig on the sheets sometimes, or just stretch out near her, then get more rowdy and eventually start barking at her.
> I'm seeing talk of testing the thyroid.... any other suggs??? We love him to death, walk him, give him love, etc., but just wish he'd behave when she wants to sleep.
> Thanks in advance.


It sounds like someone wants to play and is being a brat about it. Does your wife go to bed earlier than you did? I would make a make a game of getting on the bed and off the bed then throw in some other tricks and create a whole routine to tire out his mind and body. A routine woud be something like 

Off the bed
On the bed
Off the bed
Sit
Down
Sit
Down
On the bed
Off the bed
Go in a circle
Down
On the bed
Off the bed
and so on and so forth....


----------



## sdhgolden

I agree with what has been said. Sounds like attention seeking behavior due to anxiety. If your wife builds her bond with him and does training games like selli belle said that will help. He needs to be taught an alternate way to behave in that situation. If he has anxiety he might not be able to just figure out how he should act. Trying to show dominance only increases anxiety. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## OutWest

llbeanster said:


> We adopted a Golden of 1.5yrs... he's ~2.5yrs now and when I'm home (the alpha male), he sleeps on the floor mostly, is well behaved and doesn't really show aggression.
> When I get back to my run of night shifts... our dog is good up until bed time when he jumps on our bed, starts barking at my wife, rather loudly at times. She has pinned him to the bed a couple times to show dominance, but mostly puts him in the crate to sleep, or walks out to the kitchen where he follows, then closes the door to the bedroom behind her. After some barking (several minutes at times) he eventually settles down and goes to sleep.
> I just don't like what goes on when I'm not there... I know there's no abuse and we all love him, I just wish he'd behave with her when I'm away at night.
> I'm not sure if he's still trying to be #2 in the pack, or has separation anxiety but it only seems like once she's trying to go to bed. He'll get up, dig on the sheets sometimes, or just stretch out near her, then get more rowdy and eventually start barking at her.
> I'm seeing talk of testing the thyroid.... any other suggs??? We love him to death, walk him, give him love, etc., but just wish he'd behave when she wants to sleep.
> Thanks in advance.


I also agree that alpha rolling etc. isn't a good choice here. One thing I learned clearly from my dogs and several trainers is that "no" isn't very effective all by itself. It's always better to tell a dog what TO do (a positive) rather than what NOT to do (a void). 

What would help a lot is to have a standard bedtime routine for your dog that happens pretty much the same no matter what. You wife should be in charge if it even when you are home. In my house it looks like the dogs are shooed outside for a last potty beak, I walk around the house turning off lights and checking the doors, etc. I put up gates that either put one dog in a certain bedroom or limit them to the bedroom half of the house. By the time that's all accomplished, they have usually already fallen asleep! Routine is a great calming agent for anxious dogs--they like to know what is going to happen next. 

In your case it might be a good idea to crate your dog inside your bedroom and not allow him on the bed until things have settled down.


----------



## coaraujo

I agree that this sounds much more like an anxiety problem. If I were to ever shut my dogs in a separate room of the house while I'm home, even at bedtime, theyd bark their heads off. They want to be with their human and dont understand why theyre being shut up. For them to be calm and quiet you need to develop a routine so your dog doesn't feel this separation anxiety. For instance my dogs learned from a very young age "time for bed" which means its time to get in your crate either for bedtime or because the humans are heading out. So now if Im home sick and need to sleep in the middle of the day I can just tell the dogs time for bed and theyll crate up no fuss. Otherwise theyd probably be jumping on the bed barking at me like wake up mom lets play why are you in bed in the middle if the day! Maybe that's how your dog is feeling. Developing a crate command could really help. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Just an update on Oliver. Both dogs were started on thryoid medicine. They're taking Soloxine twice a day. 

I took Oliver on two walks this past week to try and get him some positive exposure to other dogs. I think I was pretty unsuccessful. On our first walk I felt like every dog in the neighborhood we were in were very territorial and aggressive. They were all in yards with invisible fences and came charging to the end of their properties at me and Oliver. Oliver got really nervous around all of them. I kept telling him he was a good puppy in a happy voice and we sniffed and peed on the bushes on the very far side (as far as we could get). Trying to have non aggressive reactions to these crazy dogs. Besides his hair standing on end for one dog he didn't act aggressively. No growls, no barking, no lunging. But he cowered for sure and was extremely stressed out. One dog made him so nervous that as we walked he kept checking back over his shoulder as we walked . So we won't be going that route ever again. We encountered one more dog on our walk witch was a pit puppy (probably 8 months) who definitley had excessive greeting disorder, but otherwise seemed friendly. I told Oliver heel and he walked with me relaxed in heel and didn't even really look twice at the crazy puppy across the street. 

The next walk we went on was better, more quiet. We introduced him to some polite kids. He was very shy with them and nervous. He'd say hi and then leave to go sniff. Come back to me or my BF and jump on us all nervous, then go back and say hi again. Its so weird seeing him like this. For the most part we just observed and saw maybe one dog from afar and heard dogs bark in the distance and that was good (telling him he's a good puppy for no reaction/positive reaction). BUT on the way back apparently there's a yard fenced in hidden by bushes with a huge great dane and pit bull. My BF had Bernie and I had Oliver. We heard rustling and all of a sudden the two dogs were at the fence barking and growling at us like crazy. I almost peed myself! All 4 of us jumped out of our skin. Bernie reacted. Oliver's hair was standing on end, no growling or vocal reaction which was good. I instantly told him in a happy voice he was okay and we trotted away quickly. Bernie took a lot more to calm down. Not good at all. One step forward 5 steps back :no:. Is there no where safe to walk my dogs? If this keeps happening this is going to set us back not help us. I need to figure something else out - soon.


ETA: Oh and we are currently recovering from being skunk'd on Tuesday night. Gotta love these boys always keeping life interesting.


----------



## TheZ's

Sounds like you need to find some better places for walks. I like parks that aren't too busy with paths or quiet roads for walking. I like quiet but with some other on leash dog walkers and a mixture of different types of people. Can't remember if you're anywhere near New Canaan. Waveny and Irwin parks are good. Waveny includes Spencer's Run (a dog park), probably want to steer clear of that part of the park. The great dane and pit bull sound scary.


----------



## sdhgolden

I don't have any advice on where to walk them (sorry) but I would maybe walk them separately for now. They might be feeding off each others energy. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## coaraujo

I'm one town over from New Canaan so I will check out Waveny and Irwin Parks for sure. I think we're just not going to walk the dogs at all anywhere in the town where the first walk took place. We were up at my BF's parents house. It seemed like every corner I took I didn't know what I was going to come across. We'll have to keep exploring around us and see what we can find. I guess my BF had taken the second walk's route a dozen times and never had an issue. Maybe those big dogs were never out at that time. Its a bummer because it leads to a dead end street thats really quiet. Maybe we'll just drive to the dead end street and walk up and down it to avoid that one street with crazy dogs. We'll keep looking. And definitely walk them separately. Thanks for the advice and suggestions.

ETA: where are all the friendly dogs?


----------



## Selli-Belle

I would go to the nicest park in the area and walk them there. I walk my pups in parks all over the Ann Arbor area and we never have issues with aggressive dogs. Usually we just walk right on by most dogs. Some we say "Hi" to briefly and then we go on our way. I think you are far more likely to run into aggressive/territorial dogs when walking in residential areas.


----------



## coaraujo

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Oliver unfortunately seems to be getting worse. I think we will have to get a muzzle for him. I also think that if we don't see any improvement within a few months of thyroid treatment then I will neuter him. I just don't know what to do anymore, besides just never leave the house with him.


----------



## TheZ's

So sorry to hear that things are getting worse. Just not the way things are supposed to be with a Golden.


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Oliver unfortunately seems to be getting worse. I think we will have to get a muzzle for him. I also think that if we don't see any improvement within a few months of thyroid treatment then I will neuter him. I just don't know what to do anymore, besides just never leave the house with him.


Oh that is so heartbreaking. I hope you know you are doing everything you can to help him, and so much more than most pet owners would bother to do. You have my sympathies, and my hopes that the medication kicks in and helps him.


----------



## coaraujo

I'm going to call my vet behaviorist again on Monday to discuss a few things. I just feel like this situation is so complicated. I'm also scheduling a private with his old obedience trainer who we've trained with since he was much younger (about 8 months) who knows him pre-aggression. I want to see what her thoughts are. She worked a lot with me and Bernie on his aggression issues. Its so weird to see the difference between Oliver and Bernie. We have made so much progress with Bernie, he's like a whole new dog. Happier, less stressed, more playful and friendly with all dogs. Now Oliver is anxious and stressed all the time and lashing out sometimes for no reason whatsoever. He even gets nervous around people. I'm afraid his aggression is going to move to people one day. And his aggression is severe, his bite threshold (I think there's a scale) is definitely BAD. He attacked another dog and we were in the emergency room last night. A dog he's known since he was a puppy and he's always been completely comfortable with. A small dog. Not a scary big dog. For no reason. I don't understand. I don't trust him under any circumstances anymore - with people or dogs.

Does anyone have any muzzle recommendations? What would be most comfortable for him. I'd basically have him wear it every time we leave the house, so I'd want the most comfortable one possible yet still keeps other dogs safe from him. I'm going to do some google searches. I think I've heard of soft ones and basket ones.


----------



## Loisiana

The Baskerville muzzles are supposed to be really good. The dog can still get treats, drink water, and pant in them. They are affordable too. I have one.


----------



## coaraujo

Loisiana said:


> The Baskerville muzzles are supposed to be really good. The dog can still get treats, drink water, and pant in them. They are affordable too. I have one.


Thank you,

Just ordered one off amazon. They had it in baby blue too. Amazon prime eligible so should be here in a few days. Right in time for private trainings. I think this will make me feel much better and hopefully we will be able to make some sort of progress. I don't know if I'll ever be able to trust him again, but hopefully I can help him get closer to normal. I also just ordered click to calm.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

I'm so sorry you're going through all of this...I think you're doing everything you can.


----------



## KeaColorado

Nothing really to add, except I'm so sorry you're dealing with these issues. Oliver is so lucky to have you. My Kea can be snarky with other dogs sometimes - she has little tolerance for dogs that are obnoxious and invade her space when she's on a leash or back her into a corner, but she's never shown an inkling of being nervous around people and has never acted out toward another dog unprovoked. Given the occasional snarkiness, I feel nervous when we are out walking and another dog approaches if she's on a leash. Off-leash, there have never been any problems at all. I have actually noticed with her that she seems more nervous about things since her spay surgery. No difference in how she reacts to other dogs, but she suddenly became nervous about the dishwasher opening or something randomly falling. She was almost 3 when she was spayed, FWIW. 

Do you think the behaviorist would consider medicating him in some way? I had a pit mix pet sitting client once who was pretty bad with his anxiety-related aggression toward basically anything that moved. It was so bad that they couldn't take him anywhere and really couldn't leave him in the care of a pet sitter because it was too dangerous for anyone to enter the house when they weren't home. The owner's GF, who was a vet tech, finally convinced him to try something, and along with the help of a good positive-based trainer and the medication, that dog was like a new dog within a few months. He was very smart too, and the medication really helped him. I'm not an advocate of going that route right away, but if nothing else is working, might it be worth a try?


----------



## tippykayak

I've heard good things about the Baskerville muzzles. One of my friends who rehabs lost-case shelter pitties uses them on her rescues when they have bite issues.


----------



## inge

Oh darn, I feel so bad for you. I have just been venting about it against my eldest son, who is here a couple of weeks. If you compare how he was just a year ago!


----------



## Selli-Belle

Coaraujo, I am very sorry to hear that Oliver is getting worse. I would also recommend considering medication to reduce his anxiety.


----------



## coaraujo

inge said:


> Oh darn, I feel so bad for you. I have just been venting about it against my eldest son, who is here a couple of weeks. If you compare how he was just a year ago!


I know Inge, I honestly cannot even believe it. It literally breaks my heart. But we'll get through this. 

I do think medication is a good option. His anxiety is intense. I have a long list of things to bring up with my vet behaviorist. Its hard because there are a lot of different things we can change and I dont know if we should just do everything or do one thing at a time so we know what helped. 

Im also going to make a trip down to my breeders at some point and talk to her. Shes spaying Oliver's mom. She wants to help out any way she can. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> I know Inge, I honestly cannot even believe it. It literally breaks my heart. But we'll get through this.
> 
> I do think medication is a good option. His anxiety is intense. I have a long list of things to bring up with my vet behaviorist. Its hard because there are a lot of different things we can change and I dont know if we should just do everything or do one thing at a time so we know what helped.
> 
> Im also going to make a trip down to my breeders at some point and talk to her. Shes spaying Oliver's mom. She wants to help out any way she can.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Is she spaying Oliver's mom because of this? Even before you have clear answers about whether the thyroid meds will help?


----------



## coaraujo

OutWest said:


> Is she spaying Oliver's mom because of this? Even before you have clear answers about whether the thyroid meds will help?


In Olivers moms second litter one of the pups turned out people aggressive. I guess after that and Oliver and speaking with her mentor they think its best to spay her because their might be an issue in the line. This is my limited understanding. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> In Olivers moms second litter one of the pups turned out people aggressive. I guess after that and Oliver and speaking with her mentor they think its best to spay her because their might be an issue in the line. This is my limited understanding.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That is highly responsible of her.


----------



## coaraujo

I'm having a really rough time since Oliver's incident. Today I almost had to leave work early. I think I'm really overwhelmed by it all. By everything that happened and the reality of it all, what it means for Oliver and our future. It makes me really really sad. Hopefully it'll get less stressful and i'll have less anxiety over it with time. Maybe I'll work from home tomorrow.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

It's a lot to deal with...take good care of yourself. Sending you a hug...


----------



## Max's Dad

As I continue to follow this thread, I am so sorry to read that Oliver is not doing well. I cannot imagine a Golden with a muzzle. I hope you find some answers soon. Please take care.


----------



## Vhuynh2

I have hope that Oliver will get better on thyroid meds. I'm so sorry that you're going through this.


----------



## Colie CVT

Your boys really are so lucky to have you as their mom. I have seen few people put so much effort and time into problems that usually land dogs their age into shelters really quickly. It is really easy to see just how much they mean to you and it's pretty inspiring to see. 

I've been lurking and reading on this every so often. It is such a strange thing to think that he could go from being so happy to being so stressed and nervous about the world.  My golden decided when he was about 8-9 months old that people were scary. Anything they could be on was also scary. Bikes, skateboards, scooters, roller blades, strollers. Children were extra scary and for some time it was a challenge taking him out and seeing the ups and the downs. It's been three long years of work on my end, and while Myles is not aggressive, it has still been slow going to convince him that people we meet are not scary and that things like bikes aren't bad either. 

I am sorry you guys are going through this. I hope the thyroid meds help and the trainer/behaviorist can help you guys make him feel more confident and happy again!


----------



## Charliethree

Take a deep breath, breathe and give yourself some time to think. The future may look a little dark right now, but Oliver can have a full and happy life, but, it takes time, effort and commitment to helping him work through it all. It is over whelming, have been 'in it' for over three years. Once we realized the extent of Joseph's (a one year old lab mix) behavior issues (dog and people reactive - growling, barking, lunging like a dog 'possessed') we had two choices, the second one, giving up on him, would almost certainly have ended his life, so we committed to helping him get better. It has been a long and arduous journey, and no, he is not quite 'there' yet, but there have been many successes along the way.
One of the toughest things to do was to put aside our dreams for him, accept him for 'who he is' and that he may not ever be a 'normal' dog. He may not ever like other dogs, but at least we could try to get him to a 'place' where they longer terrified him, he may not learn to love strangers, but our hope is that one day, he will understand that they are no threat to him. He may not have the life other dogs have, but he does have a very good life, despite it's limitations. The other was that there was no quick 'fix', no time frame, no 'definitive' answer to how long this journey might take, but there was no going back - we made him a promise.

If you haven't read it the book 'Feisty Fido' by Patricia McConnell can be helpful in understanding how to work and live with a reactive dog. Learning to read his body language, understanding calming signals, and stress signals, learning to 'read' him 'like a book' from the obvious lip lick to the small drop in tail position, can go a long ways to helping avoid putting him in environments or situations that upset him, while you work with him.

I don't think any one of us who is living with and working with a reactive dog expected to be doing so, and, very likely, a scant few who have not felt afraid for our dogs, overwhelmed by it all and even defeated at some point or other. But it is an opportunity to learn as much about our 'virtues' as we will about the strength, courage, and 'heart' of our dogs. 
Oliver can have a very good life, it may not take the path that you had for him, but it can be a good life, for him.

Believe in yourself, believe in Oliver.


----------



## coaraujo

Thank you all for your very kind words. I do have Fiesty Fido and have read it. A lot of the techniques in the book have worked very well for our other reactive golden, Bernie. Hopefully we will have some success with Oliver. I am a bit nervous though, as his aggression is much more severe and, well, each case is different and unique. 

I've been browsing Patricia McConnells blog and found some really interesting articles. 
Dog-Dog Aggression, Puppies and “Intensive Sniffing”
Oliver started exhibiting the obsessive sniffing around 8 months or so. I always chocked it up to hitting puberty and blowing me off because of that. But maybe it was the start of all of his anxiety - nervousness about new environments, new dogs. Interesting.

Case Study – Dog/Dog Reactivity – Ceilidh
Oliver is very similar to Ceilidh. He is nervous/anxious. Locks in on the other dog. And then usually lunges/attacks without much warning or growling. I really liked reading this article because it explained which methods would be best for this type of reactivity (i.e. NOT LAT.. more focus on watch and backing away/creating space).

A lot of interesting things in her blog.


----------



## coaraujo

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/si...sue 15 Aggression. Is it in the breeding?.pdf

One last interesting article.

ETA: funny side note about the article. Mcconnell talks about dog titles and how they dont necessarily prove if a dog is aggressive or not, just because a dog wins titles doesnt mean its well tempered (very true). She mentions the CGC as being a good indicator or a good start at telling if a dog has a good temperament. WELL... Oliver has his CGC and was used as the demo/friendly dog thereafter for a while. Lol just goes to show.. His aggression was discovered while trying to persue competitive titles. Sometimes I wonder if that stress brought it out and I pushed him too hard. Now he wants to kill all dogs. *sigh*


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

I'm sure there are now other alternatives than this, medically, but wanted to mention that I have had good results with my reactive Aussie on Clomicalm (clomipramine). She's been on it for most of her life and when I've tried to taper her off over a period of several months, I've definitely seen her reactive behavior come back.

I know many people are meds-averse, and I usually am, as well, but with anxiety-based behaviors, I have always felt that anything that helped a dog feel more relaxed was the kindest thing to do.


----------



## coaraujo

We had a private lesson this morning (with TippyKayak) and I had a phone call with my vet behaviorist's assistant. This morning went really well. I think we came up with a good action plan. We took Oliver for a walk and while no one was around he seemed pretty relaxed. He isn't really interested in food outside so I'm definitely going to have to cook up something smelly for when we start our training. He's very into everything thats going on. If he hears people talking inside a house or sees a person walking in the distance it concerns him, not in anxious way. But these were good opportunities to practice getting that head turn. So we're going to add this to our training routine. At the end of the walk while sitting in front of my house my neighbor was walking home with her dog. Oliver locked in on the dog and froze. No response to "This Way" so a tug on the leash to redirect him away. He just layed down and became glued to the ground. Thats what he used to do when he was younger when he saw a dog. But now I'm sure he'd lash out when the dog got close instead of pop up and greet with tail wagging like he used to. I pulled him away with a little more force and then had him walking willingly with me. He attempted to lock in one more time when we were at my front door but responded and went into the house. No growls. I feel like it'd be better if there had been growls. At least then we have some warning. Instead of wondering is he gonna attack, is he gonna be nice, whats going to happen ? 

We're going to start crating the boys when we go to work now too, no time together left unsupervised. Now that Oliver is completely unpredictable and his aggression is clearly severe with the intent to do extreme damage or kill we could easily come home to....well just not good. i dont like thnking about it. So theyll be crated. We're also going to do a version of crate and rotate and see how that goes. I dont think its exactly crate and rotate but will work best with our life/work schedule (and Brian, if you read this you can comment on what you think). Feedings will be done separately. So basically one will be crated while the other eats. They will have supervised playtime in the morning, at lunch, and when we get home from work. We're going to have a certain amount of time each day where the dogs are separated after work and get individual attention. Our house has two levels with a door separating the two levels so we'll have one dog upstairs and one downstairs. That way they don't have to actually be in a crate. I'm going to use some of this time to work on Oliver's training - getting a solid escape command (This Way) so we can U-turn out of places, getting a solid watch, a solid happy leave it, etc. And I'll also use this time to work on Bernie's hunting training. I think this part is going to be the hardest to work into our schedule but hopefully this version of crate and rotate will help eliminate any negative experiences at home (like resource guarding etc). A time where they each can just play with whatever toys they want without being bothered, etc. 

After talking with the behaviorists assistant I have an apt scheduled for next wednesday. We talked about 3 main things: Neutering, Putting Oliver on anxiety meds, and changing his food. She said that the anxiety medication is definitely a good option, especially for starting out but before putting him on anything it'd be best to bring him in and have a face to face visit and we talk more thoroughly. Same thing with neutering. She said Dr. Lindell will have better answers for that question. She said that usually there isn't much of a difference from changing food so maybe that will be something we try later on. She took a lot of notes about our past experiences since our last appointment to give to Dr. Lindell so hopefully we'll have some idea about what to do about neutering/medicating Oliver at our next apt. And hopefully the muzzle comes in, otherwise I don't think I'll be able to bring him. She also said something interesting, that when a dog has the intention to kill another dog it goes for the back leg (so it can't run away). I dont know if thats different when it goes after another dog when it thinks it prey, but Oliver definitely seemed like he had the intention of killing my parent's dog even though he picked her up by the shoulder blades.

Its so crazy that this fluffball can be such a monster. He seems so loving, lacks some self control maybe but I would have never thought that this was hiding in him.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

What a tough situation...I know you're handling it really well but my heart hurts for you anyway. 

Sending another hug.


----------



## coaraujo

Noreaster said:


> What a tough situation...I know you're handling it really well but my heart hurts for you anyway.
> 
> Sending another hug.


I've been doing a lot of stress baking lately. There are about 150 mini muffins on my kitchen counter right now .


----------



## boomers_dawn

coaraujo said:


> I've been doing a lot of stress baking lately. There are about 150 mini muffins on my kitchen counter right now .


Are they doggie muffins? :

Glad to hear you're working on practical solutions.
Sounds good for everyone, and more hopeful.


----------



## coaraujo

boomers_dawn said:


> Are they doggie muffins? :
> 
> Glad to hear you're working on practical solutions.
> Sounds good for everyone, and more hopeful.


Cornbread and Blueberry so they can't have too many, but safe to share a few


----------



## coaraujo

Today the muzzle came in the mail. We started training right away! We need to develop a strong positive association with it. My BF thinks it looks like a catchers mask in baseball, which it really does, so looks like we're training for the major leagues! Here's a video of our first training session. I'm going to try and post videos every so often of our road to recovery, to look back upon and in hopes to help others who may struggle with similar situations.






ETA: He's so smart, love him. We'll fix you Oliver, don't worry.


----------



## MercyMom

coaraujo said:


> Thank you everyone for your suggestions. Oliver unfortunately seems to be getting worse. I think we will have to get a muzzle for him. I also think that if we don't see any improvement within a few months of thyroid treatment then I will neuter him. I just don't know what to do anymore, besides just never leave the house with him.


I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this.:no: My thoughts are with you. I am hoping that the thyroid medicine helps. Too bad you have to use a muzzle, but if that's what you need to keep safe, it's a good thing.


----------



## MercyMom

coaraujo said:


> I've been doing a lot of stress baking lately. There are about 150 mini muffins on my kitchen counter right now .


 I turn to chocolate when I'm stressed. Yum!


----------



## sdhgolden

Wow he loves it already! You are doing all the right things. You will look back on this and be amazed at how far you guys have come! 

Off topic but he is gorgeous! Do you trim his ears yourself? They look great.  (ear trimming is one of my many struggles in life lol)


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Max's Dad

Oliver sure is a handsome boy. Watching the video it is surprising that he has aggression issues.


----------



## lhowemt

What a gorgeous boy he is. You and he will get through it, I am positive. You are doing an amazing job to help him learn the rules of our world. Cyber kiss for Oliver!


----------



## MaggieandBailey

What a beautiful boy!! So great he has such loving parents/owners 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Video two. This one's really dark unfortunately - it wasn't this dark on the camera  bummer. I was able to actually strap it on! I'm happy he's adjusting to it so well. I moved a little too quickly, asked for too much too soon with this session. I upped duration and then asked for new criteria (walking with it on). Too much and he tried to paw it off. But I think next session we'll be ready for some walking with it on. Thanks everyone for your kind words. He really is the sweetest boy, which makes his aggression so scary. Its rash and impulsive and out of nowhere . But at least we're prepared now.


----------



## Charliethree

Perhaps I missed it, but did the vet behaviorist recommend getting a muzzle for him? I absolutely understand the priority and need to keep everyone safe, but also know that properly acclimatizing a dog to a muzzle (or head halter) can many days, if not weeks, don't rush it or you could end up adding to Oliver's issues. The reason I ask is that adding another potential stressor to the picture, may not be what Oliver needs right now.
The key to success in working with a reactive dog, is patience, practice and working at the dog's pace. Having someone 'on board' who has the knowledge and experience with working with reactive dogs, to help you determine whether to 'stay the course' or 'move forward' in the program, is a huge benefit. Counter conditioning (creating a positive association) and desensitizing to the sight of their trigger at a distance they are not over threshold (10 ft.? 30 ft? 30 yds?), and slowly closing that distance is an essential first step. Working in controlled situations, so that you can avoid unintentionally setting the dog up for failure - the last thing a dog reactive dog needs is to have a loose dog get in his space. 'Down time', a chance to play or just relax in a totally 'safe' environment, is essential, without exposure to triggers, gives the dog a chance to wind down and for the body chemistry to return to 'normal' after a stressful outing. It can take 48 hours for the physiological changes in a dog's body to return to normal after experiencing an 'event' where he goes over threshold, taking the dog out too soon - odds are good he will be 'primed'/anxious heading out the door. Starting out with a calm dog increases the chances of success that time around.
When working with a reactive dog our goal is to change how the dog _feels _about it's triggers, that takes time, and lots of it. Our job is to give them the training and skills they need to help them cope with those emotions that drive the behavior and long term, to help them understand and trust that we will keep them safe.


----------



## Buddy's mom forever

Charliethree said:


> Perhaps I missed it, but did the vet behaviorist recommend getting a muzzle for him? I absolutely understand the priority and need to keep everyone safe, but also know that properly acclimatizing a dog to a muzzle (or head halter) can many days, if not weeks, don't rush it or you could end up adding to Oliver's issues. The reason I ask is that adding another potential stressor to the picture, may not be what Oliver needs right now.
> The key to success in working with a reactive dog, is patience, practice and working at the dog's pace. Having someone 'on board' who has the knowledge and experience with working with reactive dogs, to help you determine whether to 'stay the course' or 'move forward' in the program, is a huge benefit. Counter conditioning (creating a positive association) and desensitizing to the sight of their trigger at a distance they are not over threshold (10 ft.? 30 ft? 30 yds?), and slowly closing that distance is an essential first step. Working in controlled situations, so that you can avoid unintentionally setting the dog up for failure - the last thing a dog reactive dog needs is to have a loose dog get in his space. 'Down time', a chance to play or just relax in a totally 'safe' environment, is essential, without exposure to triggers, gives the dog a chance to wind down and for the body chemistry to return to 'normal' after a stressful outing. It can take 48 hours for the physiological changes in a dog's body to return to normal after experiencing an 'event' where he goes over threshold, taking the dog out too soon - odds are good he will be 'primed'/anxious heading out the door. Starting out with a calm dog increases the chances of success that time around.
> When working with a reactive dog our goal is to change how the dog _feels _about it's triggers, that takes time, and lots of it. Our job is to give them the training and skills they need to help them cope with those emotions that drive the behavior and long term, to help them understand and trust that we will keep them safe.


Love your post, I had to read it slowly so I can "hear" every word you said. Thank you!
Oliver is so sweet, no matter what!


----------



## TheZ's

Watching the videos I was struck by what a handsome dog Oliver is and how patiently you were working with him. It's hard to believe he needs the muzzle but I did notice signs of tenseness in the second video when a dog barked in the background.

I wish I had something to suggest to help. I did have one thought while looking at the "where's your dog from thread" and after checking the pedigree's you posted for Oliver's parents. I saw that his mother's sire was a Gaylan's dog. I believe Gayle Watkins is very knowledgeable and particularly interested in the breed. Perhaps through Oliver's breeder she could be contacted for advice on Oliver's situation.


----------



## coaraujo

TheZ's said:


> Watching the videos I was struck by what a handsome dog Oliver is and how patiently you were working with him. It's hard to believe he needs the muzzle but I did notice signs of tenseness in the second video when a dog barked in the background.
> 
> I wish I had something to suggest to help. I did have one thought while looking at the "where's your dog from thread" and after checking the pedigree's you posted for Oliver's parents. I saw that his mother's sire was a Gaylan's dog. I believe Gayle Watkins is very knowledgeable and particularly interested in the breed. Perhaps through Oliver's breeder she could be contacted for advice on Oliver's situation.


 
This is such a great idea, thank you so much, one, for bringing it up, and two for putting in the time and effort to dig around to help. I do believe my breeder knows Gayle so I will email her and see if I can get into contact with her.

I really appreciate the care and devotion you all have to the breed and to us fellow GRFers .


----------



## KeaColorado

Every dog deserves a dog mom like you. He's such a beautiful boy. 

You can do everything right (research pedigrees, choose a good breeder, raise the puppy correctly), and sometimes they just are who they are. I know I've said it before, but Oliver is so very lucky to have landed with you, and there is absolutely nothing you or anyone else did to make him this way. You are going to get through this. It may be that he can never be fully trusted around other dogs, and if that is the case, you will still figure out how to give him the best life he can possibly have. 

Have you looked into any of Grisha Stewart's BAT books or classes through the Fenzi Online Dog Sports Academy? Oliver is so smart, I think he'd be a really good candidate. And possibly through the use of the muzzle to reduce your anxiety and maybe some medications to reduce Oliver's anxiety while he's training, you will get to a point where you no longer need those things. I know you're seeing a good behaviorist too. Thank you for sharing your journey with us so we can learn from it.

ETA: When I was dealing with severe dog reactivity with my Ellie, I felt like I needed anxiety medication too  I wish I would have done more for her.


----------



## coaraujo

Charliethree said:


> Perhaps I missed it, but did the vet behaviorist recommend getting a muzzle for him? I absolutely understand the priority and need to keep everyone safe, but also know that properly acclimatizing a dog to a muzzle (or head halter) can many days, if not weeks, don't rush it or you could end up adding to Oliver's issues. The reason I ask is that adding another potential stressor to the picture, may not be what Oliver needs right now..


My behaviorist did not recommend a muzzle. However, this was before we knew just how severe and dangerous Oliver's issues were. When Oliver reacts he does so with the intent to injure and do damage, possibly with the intent to kill (that'll be something discussed at my next appointment with my behaviorist). Because of this outside of fenced in areas I do not trust him without a muzzle. On walks, in training centers, etc he will need to be muzzled for everyone's safety and for his own. Oliver is unpredictable in his reactivity. Any noise or movement could set him off, whether its threatening or not. He doesn't read social cues or language correctly. Once he reacts he does not stop. Regardless of if the threat is gone or his focus is broken. He is unbelievably scary. And like many of you have said it is honestly shocking to see it come from him because 95% of the time he's probably just like everyone else's happy-go-lucky golden at home. He's smart and biddable and loves his family. I just wouldn't be able to work with him without a muzzle knowing if he broke away I would be responsible for another dog's possible death. No matter how careful you try to be accidents happen, a muzzle will help in those cases. The first dog Oliver ever attacked we were outside of the ring laying down calmly with me holding the leash. He just bolted for the dog working in the ring. No sign, no warning. I lost the leash caught completely off guard. Luckily at this point Oliver wasn't making contact. But unfortunately his aggression has gotten worse instead of better .



> *The key to success in working with a reactive dog, is patience, practice and working at the dog's pace. Having someone 'on board' who has the knowledge and experience with working with reactive dogs, to help you determine whether to 'stay the course' or 'move forward' in the program, is a huge benefit. Counter conditioning (creating a positive association) and desensitizing to the sight of their trigger at a distance they are not over threshold (10 ft.? 30 ft? 30 yds?), and slowly closing that distance is an essential first step. Working in controlled situations, so that you can avoid unintentionally setting the dog up for failure - the last thing a dog reactive dog needs is to have a loose dog get in his space. 'Down time', a chance to play or just relax in a totally 'safe' environment, is essential, without exposure to triggers, gives the dog a chance to wind down and for the body chemistry to return to 'normal' after a stressful outing. It can take 48 hours for the physiological changes in a dog's body to return to normal after experiencing an 'event' where he goes over threshold, taking the dog out too soon - odds are good he will be 'primed'/anxious heading out the door. Starting out with a calm dog increases the chances of success that time around.*
> 
> *When working with a reactive dog our goal is to change how the dog feels about it's triggers, that takes time, and lots of it. Our job is to give them the training and skills they need to help them cope with those emotions that drive the behavior and long term, to help them understand and trust that we will keep them safe.*


This is a lot of great information. Thank you.


----------



## coaraujo

Another couple of videos from training today with the muzzle: Slow and Steady


----------



## OutWest

Well done Ollie and Bernie! And mom. Love how he thinks the muzzle is the best treat earning item ever...


----------



## MaureenM

You're doing a great job! So are they ! I'm sorry this has happened, but so glad Oliver has you to help him through it.


----------



## coaraujo

Just a quick update: Tomorrow we have a visit with our vet behaviorist to talk about neutering and anxiety medication. I also signed Oliver up for Grumpy Growler class at a local obedience club near where I live. It's specially for dogs like him - limited to 6 dogs in a class. Here's a class description:

*Grumpy Growler​*If your dog reacts aggressively – lunging, barking, snapping – when encountering a strange dog, this class can help. Your dog will learn a new
way to perceive canine strangers, and you will learn how to read your dog’s signals and gain some valuable tools and techniques to help you
manage dog-to-dog encounters. We will use reward-based training, and muzzles where necessary. No dogs in the first class.​​​​Class limit 6.​
*Special Requirements:​*​​​​Submit behavior questionnaire prior to first class.
Dog must be on flat collar, martingale collar, harness or head halter. No prong or choke collars permitted.​
*Skills Introduced:​*​​​​Your dog will learn to accept the presence of a strange dog.​
The handler will learn how to read the dog’s signals, and how to manage dog-dog encounters.

I might sign Bernie up for the following session if I like the class since he's reactive as well. He's all talk whereas Olivers all..um..kill you now? They also have a second level, so maybe Oliver will graduate from this and we can keep working on his issues. I just have to get him ready to wear that muzzle. Class starts Sept 6th so that gives us some time. 

In the mean time Oliver and I will be picking up Tracking. I couldn't get him to do field work because his anxiety got in the way, but I'm hoping crossfing) that he'll be able to handle tracking. We already play a few of the games that you would with a puppy starting out in tracking (like "hide and seek" and "find it") so I'm hoping to expand from there. Start laying out simple tracks and get his confidence up in new environments. I think tracking will be better than something like agility where he'd probably go over threshold a lot. That and there's a lot more space between the dogs with tracking, unlike if we're in a class and all a few feet apart in the obedience ring. He's not about to get away with just being a house pet, we're going to get out there and do something fun . This will all be on our own until we get the basics down and then there's a tracking club not too far from me so hopefully we'll be able to join that depending on how his aggression training goes. I found with Bernie that doing field work and reactivity training at the same time was huge in his progress/transformation. Hoping the same will happen with Oliver.


----------



## tine434

Good job 
The class sounds great


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Wow, what a great resource to have a class like that where you are. 

Good for you for hunting that down and taking advantage of it...if you have time, can you tell us what you learn there? 

I really appreciate your updates!


----------



## coaraujo

We had our vet behaviorist appointment today. I was kind of nervous because Oliver's not ready to wear a muzzle yet so I took him there on just his collar and harness. There was a dog in the parking lot and Oliver watched him through the car window walking around. No reaction, slightly interested but nothing aggressive or negative. We walked in and there were three little dogs in the waiting room, two in soft crates and one sitting on its owners lap. Oliver and I just went and sat in the farthest corner while my BF checked us in. Oliver was nervous, being at the vets office, but he didn't even seem to notice the other dogs. They got us quickly into a room so that we could get Oliver away from the other dogs. I told him "heel" and he walked with me in a decent heel passed the other dogs. It wasn't pretty heads up heeling, but his head was glued to my knee and he walked in line with me. 

Now as for the appointment.. We talked about the incident with my parents dog. The behaviorist is thinking that what happens with Oliver is when he doesn't get signals from another dog he gets more nervous and anxious and is more likely to react. She also said that Oliver has an idea in his head of how the world should be, when things change and aren't normal his anxiety goes up and unfortunately he's dealing with those feelings with aggression. She thinks he heard Mandy squeal and felt that this was completely out of the ordinary - only fun and peace occurs at home - and the anxiety that it caused spurred the attack. Kind of like "oh my god, there's a scared dog freaking out at my house what do I do...aggressive response.." since that is how he has learned to deal with his anxiety. 

She brought up some great points about which scenarios cause Oliver to become aggressive. I think I need to start a journal because I didn't really know the answer. For instance, does he react more when he sees a bouncy playful dog or a dog walking calmly with its owner? I feel like for the most part he gets more nervous about the quiet dogs. My behaviorist said it has to do with the fact that he's not getting information from them. An example is on a walk we passed by a crazy exuberant pitbull puppy (8 months ish) and I was able to have Oliver heel with me passed their house. No aggressive response, no locking in on the dog and staring. However the other day we were sitting in front of my house and our neighbor was walking back with her dog. Oliver locks in and freezes and then lies down and won't budge. So I'm wondering if, one, he feels more confrontation straight on, and two, if quiet dogs make him more nervous because he can't read them as well? Its interesting and something I'll have to pay more attention to. 

She also brought up that when Oliver freezes and lies down I should try to connect with him instead of pulling him away. She said if his automatic response is to down then use that command with him. "Good Down" and then "Stay". See if I can get him thinking and refocusing on me. She said I really need to get HIM to make the choices, not me pulling him away, or else he won't actually make the decision himself. 

She said to be careful with the Grumpy Growlers class because not all of them are taught the best way. She said to look out for luring with food and basically just using food to try and get the dogs comfortable closer and closer to each other. She said the class should really focus on just getting your dog to settle and relax in the presence of other dogs and then work up to working around them, etc. She recommended a different training center but its too far away for me to take part in right now. I am going to try out this class and just only do what I am comfortable with. I think I'll buy a matt to bring with us so we can just work on settling and relaxing and he'll start associating being relaxed with his matt wherever it goes. 

We also talked about diet, anxiety meds, and neutering. She said that there was a study done that showed a low protein diet had an effect on reducing aggression in dogs. She said its something that we can try with him. She said it seems to be more of an individual dog thing. Some dogs are more calm on a low protein diet and others are more calm on a high protein diet. So really we'd just have to try it and see. Right now Oliver hasn't been eating all that well so I'm not going to change his diet yet until we can get him eating regularly again. Then I might try it out. She didn't want to put him on anxiety medicine. She said she'd rather see how the training goes first. There's a lot of side effects with anxiety medication and finding the right kind that works best with Oliver could take some time. So we're going to work on keeping him under threshold and just getting him to relax around other dogs and in new environments. As for neutering ahhhh I have no idea what to do now. She said with fear and anxiety based aggression it hardly ever makes a difference, but we could neuter and see. She said that at his age neutering probably won't have much of an effect at all since he's almost 2 and pretty much developed his personality and isn't growing, etc anymore. She said there are cases where some dogs get more anxious after being neutered. That's what makes me the most nervous. It seems like the neutering will either have no effect or could make things worse. At the same time eventually we'll be neutering Bernie and I don't know if leaving one intact dog in the house is the best idea. So maybe down the road when we neuter Bernie we'll neuter Oliver too, but there's no rush to do it right now I guess. I just really don't want to increase his anxiety. Everything is so complicated.

She also recommended getting something like an airhorn to interrupt his aggressive behavior when he plays with other dogs. One of our neighbors has a lab mix that Oliver and Bernie love playing with and he comes over occasionally for play dates. But after the incident with my parent's dog I'm afraid to let Oliver around another dog without a muzzle on. My trainer said thats definitely the case with little dogs because its a much riskier situation. But with larger dogs you can intervene before things get too out of hand. So she recommended an air horn or something and just always be right there ready. That way he can still have play dates with our neighbors dog. Its huge for his growth, but at the same time it just makes me nervous. For now I think we'll just stick to seeing each other through the fence, maybe once he improves in his training we can have a play date again. 

PHEW. Lots to think about and lots to do.


----------



## KeaColorado

coaraujo said:


> She said I really need to get HIM to make the choices, not me pulling him away, or else he won't actually make the decision himself.


I think this is SUCH a good point. I find myself so often in training reacting to what my dogs are doing instead of teaching my dogs to react appropriately on their own, whether it's training behaviors for a competition environment, preventing Kea from barking at everything that walks past our house or trying to teach the puppy to stop eating goose and bunny poop. 

Keep up the good work!!


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Very interesting information. I'm curious as to why she thinks you can intervene with big dogs if Oliver goes after them? Maybe I'm misreading that? I would think that trying to stop a fight between two big dogs would be really difficult, if not dangerous?

The idea that he needs feedback from other dogs is really intriguing. I discovered something similar with my rescue BC mix in that he has a much easier time dealing with strangers if they keep up the happy talk. We had a couple of training school teachers who dealt with the shy guys by going silent and just getting down on his level and turning away slightly while offering a treat--and that scared him. Then another instructor just started chattering away happily to him and kept up the happy talk and he LOVED it. So now whenever we go to the vet or when I start picking up nervous signals from him I just keep saying, "Happy happy! Everybody keep up the happy!" I even sing.

I'm guessing you won't be able to get other dogs to sing for him? 

Did she think that muzzling him will help reduce his anxiety? I'm curious about that, because it would take one entire course of action out of his repertoire AND obviously help you be less stressed, so on the surface it would make sense?

Once again, you're being a marvelously responsible pet owner for your boy in pursuing every avenue for help. I admire that very much.


----------



## coaraujo

I do agree that intervening in a dog fight between two large dogs can be dangerous. I think her point (and I didnt articulate this well) was that with a little dog Oliver could easily kill it without us ever having a chance to separate them whereas a fight between two large dogs go differently. She said usually dogs start out not biting as hard as they can and its more rough and tumble so you have an opportunity to pull them apart/air horn before someone gets seriously injured or killed. It wouldn't ever be with strange dogs, but like with my neighbors dog who Oliver has always gotten alomg with and grew up with. Obviously anything can happen so we should be prepared (like with a noise maker, etc) but him having those positive play dates could be huge in his positive association with other dogs. 

She thinks muzzling him is a good idea, well getting him used to it. She doesn't think he necessarily needs it all the time but there are situations where itll be necessary like around little dogs and puppies so working on building a positive association with it and learning to play with it on is important. 

If only every dog play bowed when they greeted Oliver, then hed never think anyone was a threat

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sally's Mom

Glad you went to a behaviorist. A truly dominant dog doesn't go around growling and snarking. Oliver's behavior sounded like anxiety to me. Hope you have good tools to help him.


----------



## coaraujo

Summary from behaviorist of what we need to work on

Treatment Plan:
1. Check out Feisty Fido classes At St. Hubert’s in Morristown, NJ.
2. Use your “stay” and “settle” to your advantage when Oliver balks because he is nervous. Once he can connect with you, then you can gently ask for the heel. Avoid pulling when possible.
3. Practice “go say hi” with people and familiar dogs. We have a handout for that.
4. Increase duration of the “watch”. Sometimes reward at once, sometimes expect duration. You can add a cue such as “steady”. 
5. Once the muzzle is tolerated, you can begin to ask for calm sits as close to a dog as Oliver is comfortable.
6. Consider a head halter for improved control.
7. Keep Spray Shield on hand when Oliver plays with other large familiar dogs.

Just thought I'd throw this in here too so people can see what my behaviorist is saying


----------



## lhowemt

Interesting, spray shield is citronella. I wonder if it works with serious aggression? I've always jumped right to considering pepper spray, knowing that both me and my dog will likely suffer, but if it stops the altercation, it is worth it. We have tried a citronella spray collar on Lila when she would bark and bark and bark at the squirrel in (or not) the tree. It worked very well until she got used to getting sprayed by it. Then she just always smelled like it.....

Glad to hear you have so many ideas and options, nowhere near out of answers. Keep going!


----------



## OutWest

Lots and lots and lots of information and choices... You are doing a lot for your Oliver. 

Re: the Growly Dog class...I was concerned a bit too about that. They sound like good ideas, but could easily go bad IMO. I think I'd want to know the qualifications and training philosophy of the trainer. The goal your vet behaviorist outlined sounded quite reasonable. 

I mentioned before that the low-protein diet worked for Bella. Well "worked" is the wrong term. I believe she has more impulse control on it. I believe it also helped Charliethree's dog. 

Good work you're doing! Hope you don't get too tired of it all...easy to do....you and your BF obviously love both dogs a great deal.


----------



## Eowyn

coaraujo said:


> Obviously anything can happen so we should be prepared (like with a noise maker, etc) but him having those positive play dates could be huge in his positive association with other dogs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Hoses are (to my knowledge) one of the best and safest ways to break up a dog fight. It won't hurt the dog, but very few dogs will keep fighting when getting sprayed with a hose. 

I am so impressed with how well you are handling this! You are just beyond amazing! :wavey:


----------



## coaraujo

Eowyn said:


> Hoses are (to my knowledge) one of the best and safest ways to break up a dog fight. It won't hurt the dog, but very few dogs will keep fighting when getting sprayed with a hose.
> 
> I am so impressed with how well you are handling this! You are just beyond amazing! :wavey:


Thank your for this suggestion, what a great idea. I like having something that I can use that actually interrupts the dog but isn't hurting them. I also like having mutliple options (hose, air horn, etc)


----------



## coaraujo

OutWest said:


> Lots and lots and lots of information and choices... You are doing a lot for your Oliver.
> 
> Re: the Growly Dog class...I was concerned a bit too about that. They sound like good ideas, but could easily go bad IMO. I think I'd want to know the qualifications and training philosophy of the trainer. The goal your vet behaviorist outlined sounded quite reasonable.
> 
> I mentioned before that the low-protein diet worked for Bella. Well "worked" is the wrong term. I believe she has more impulse control on it. I believe it also helped Charliethree's dog.
> 
> Good work you're doing! Hope you don't get too tired of it all...easy to do....you and your BF obviously love both dogs a great deal.


It definitely is tiring, but whether its training for competition or training to fix behavioral issues I just really love spending time with my boys. They're my only escape from the other stresses of real life. They may add some extra stress sometimes but we're a family and we'll get it all figured out together . I do think we'll be trying the low-protein diet - the one you mentioned to me. I just want to get Oliver eating regularly again. For some reason he's being extremely picky with his food and turning up his nose to it every meal. I don't understand . I took him to the vet a couple of weeks ago about it and we came to the conclusion that he's not sick, that its more of a mind over matter thing with him. Something about the food is making him not want to eat it, but we don't know why. He'll eat other things - like people food or treats. So he's being selective. He's never like this. Usually he's a food hound. Frustrating!


----------



## coaraujo

Feeling completely deflated. We had a play date with our neighbors dog today. He came over like usual and the three boys were playing. Oliver went off on him. . I was standing right there just in case and pulled him apart (pulled Oliver back by his back legs). He didn't leave any puncture wounds - I think it was mostly vocalizations and snapping. But it was so disheartening. Logan was just over last week and they played fine. Its like he gets worse every day. Logan won't be coming over anymore obviously because Oliver can't handle himself. 

On a very small positive note, when Oliver got reactive Bernie didn't at all and Logan and Bernie were able to continue playing. Man how the tables have turned.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Do you think it might work with just Oliver and Logan? Or on neutral territory?

Pack behavior is totally different behavior...with my three dogs, if I take any one of them out on their own, they have remarkably different reactions than they do as a pack. I have definitely noticed that their reactivity goes up considerably when they're in a group--I suspect there's some pack territoriality at work.


----------



## aussieresc

I'm wondering is it necessary for him to play with other dogs or just be able to be nonreactive to them when he sees them? He may be the kind of dog that doesn't have playdates and your goal is that he just gets along with your other dog.


----------



## TheZ's

It's interesting that he's off his food. One of the vets who treated Zoe told me that if a Lab or Golden goes off their food there's usually something going on. But Oliver's had a full medical evaluation?


----------



## Max's Dad

Could the lack of appetite have something to do with the medications he is taking?


----------



## coaraujo

I'm not sure if it would be better with just Oliver and Logan or not. Oliver and Logan are both very high energy, over the top when they play (similar styles). I feel like it was just too much and Oliver didn't know how to tell Logan to stop with correct dog behavior. Usually its Bernie telling Oliver to calm down when they're wrestling. So I guess now that Oliver seems to be getting more and more reactive he can't handle Logan's playing anymore. They used to be fine for the longest time. And he wanted Logan to come back and play after wards. They were nose to nose at the fence immediately after. But he just can't seem to control himself. He gets over threshold and his default behavior is to attack. I don't mind if he doesn't play with other dogs and is just meant to be with Bernie, but I didn't think that he'd react with Logan since just last week he was fine. I was hoping that this would be a positive interaction for him. I just don't get it. 

We didn't do too much at the vet, but I've had so much bloodwork on him recently that they didn't think it was necessary to do it again since everything but his thyroid came back normal. I asked if the thyroid medicine could make him lose his appetite and they said that usually the opposite would happen. He'd get an increase in appetite. He's quite the puzzle. I'm not sure what to do. I do agree that its alarming when a golden won't eat, especially Oliver. I dont know what other tests we could run at the vet. Maybe xrays or ultrasounds or something? 

I just don't understand why he's getting worse - it doesn't seem normal to me that his behavioral issues would keep escalating if there's not something else wrong. Its not like he has dogs attacking him left and right, we've been working on desensitizing him. I'd think it'd at least stay the same if not get better, not get worse . *sigh*


----------



## Megora

Coar.... I don't know if you've discussed this with your trainers, but just going off of what I've observed with friends whose dogs are a bit more edgy....

If you want to do fieldwork and obedience with both boys, you have to really drop all the playdates, dog parks, anything like that.

It isn't necessary for these dogs' happiness to have playdates with other dogs. And it complicates the mentality of the dogs when it comes to being able to take them somewhere where's there's a lot of other dogs.... and being told to completely ignore them. 

There's a lot of obedience and field dogs out there who.... aren't nice... with other dogs. I used to train with a husband and wife team who got into actual field trials with their labs (so very high competitive in field) in addition to pursuing higher level titles in obedience. Their female was an angel, but the male was scary. It did not take very much to have him bristling up about dogs getting in his space. That dog was bad for about 6 weeks and then learned to completely ignore other dogs. That was how long it took to correct and train away those socialization/coping related issues. That dog now is going for his utility title, and while I did maybe see him pop up once during out of sight stays.... it was him getting up and following his owner out of the ring - zero interest in other dogs. 

I know a big part of all that was the owners not giving that dog any mixed messages. And they absolutely never turned this dog loose or let him "visit" with other dogs.

I just think that while you are going through a lot with Oliver - just getting him to be a happy normal dog with your other boy, it's just adding more complication setting him up with other dogs. 

Training - meaning going to class every week, setting up training dates with other people, and taking Oliver places where even though there are other dogs around, he knows he has to WORK.... it might help you get some calm and trust faster.


----------



## aussieresc

I'm also thinking nose work might be good for him. Dogs are crated when not working and it can really build confidence.


----------



## lhowemt

I just started the book "control unleashed". She talks a lot at the beginning about reactive dogs. It is really really interesting and I thought of you and Oliver. I hope he is doing well.


----------



## MercyMom

coaraujo said:


> Feeling completely deflated. We had a play date with our neighbors dog today. He came over like usual and the three boys were playing. Oliver went off on him. . I was standing right there just in case and pulled him apart (pulled Oliver back by his back legs). He didn't leave any puncture wounds - I think it was mostly vocalizations and snapping. But it was so disheartening. Logan was just over last week and they played fine. Its like he gets worse every day. Logan won't be coming over anymore obviously because Oliver can't handle himself.
> 
> On a very small positive note, when Oliver got reactive Bernie didn't at all and Logan and Bernie were able to continue playing. Man how the tables have turned.


Oh no! I'm so sorry!:no:


----------



## KeaColorado

Megora said:


> Coar.... I don't know if you've discussed this with your trainers, but just going off of what I've observed with friends whose dogs are a bit more edgy....
> 
> If you want to do fieldwork and obedience with both boys, you have to really drop all the playdates, dog parks, anything like that.
> 
> It isn't necessary for these dogs' happiness to have playdates with other dogs. And it complicates the mentality of the dogs when it comes to being able to take them somewhere where's there's a lot of other dogs.... and being told to completely ignore them.


I wholeheartedly agree with the above. 

And try not to be disheartened - when you come out on the other side of all of this, you are going to have a dog who will be 100% focused on you and would rather work with YOU than play with (or react to) other dogs.


----------



## coaraujo

I spoke with the trainer from PCOTC and really liked what she had to say. I wanted to talk to her about what class would be appropriate for Oliver – Grumpy Growlers or Shy/Fearful Dogs. My behaviorist is very wary of Grumpy Growler classes. She thinks seeing other reactive dogs will be bad for Oliver. Since Oliver is also anxious and fearful of people and new environments I’m thinking the Shy/Fearful Dog class will be better for him. I’m hopefully going to meet with the trainer this weekend so she can see Oliver and his behavior. She has concerns about him acting out in the Shy/Fearful Dog class that could be negative for the other dogs. She gave some great suggestions for reading material and training. She recommended following Dr. Karen Overalls Relaxation Protocol: http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/Protocol_for_Relaxation-_Karen_Overall.pdf
And starting matt work described in Fired-Up, Frantic, and Freaked out. 
I just purchased the book, but haven’t read it yet. My behaviorist thinks matt work will be really good for Oliver as long as its taught the right way so he can learn to relax. I read through the Relaxation Protocol and thought it was pretty interesting. We’re going to start working on that today. 

The only person who I've talked to about playdates with is my behaviorist. Its not something we are setting up with new dogs, but she believed it would be good for Oliver to have positive playdates with dogs he was comfortable with. This is why we had Logan over this weekend. Any instances where Oliver interacts with another dog on a postive level would be huge in reducing his behavioral issues because it would create a positive association with other dogs. Unfortunately, over the course of a week he can no longer handle even the most familiar dogs. Clearly its not positive and not going to help him in his development. I'm not so much concerned about competing with Oliver anymore, anything we do now will be to build his confidence, reduce his anxiety, and try to get rid of (or lessen) his behavioral issues. However, obviously playdates won't be helping so we will be stopping those. It was a last attempt at proper socialization with other dogs - and we failed.

I dont think the goal is to teach Oliver to ignore other dogs, I think its to change his emotion when he sees other dogs. You don't want to train a reactive dog to just ignore, you want to change how he feels in that situation so that the reactivity is gone. Otherwise its just a matter of what will cause him to go over the edge. He can ignore a dog 10 ft away, 5 ft away, but maybe not 5 ft away and spazzing out. Maybe I'm not understanding correctly but I think we have to have an emotional shift for us to be successful. But at a very slow pace, whatever keeps Oliver under threshold and feling relaxed.

Thanks everyone for your input and support.

P.S. I actually have Control Unleashed, just haven't read it yet  looks like I should probably get on that. The to-do list is getting long!


----------



## JanetBionda

Just a thought but I've been reading a lot about hyperthyroidism at this moment. Do you think that Oliver should be tested again to make sure he isn't getting too much thyroxine. Hyperthyroidism can cause aggressive behaviour and anxiety.

"Response to medications used for hypothyroidism may lead to overproduction of thyroxine"


----------



## lhowemt

Dr Overalls was a source for the woman that does the control unleashed program. Excellent! I got it because I liked the puppy program so much. Now I hope Lila can benefit because she has some self control/thrrshold issues. I started working on teaching the girls to blink last night. Cool to see a path to teach a dog to disengage and self soothe.


----------



## lhowemt

Maybe you could audit grumpy growlers to learn the techniques but just take them home?


----------



## Megora

> I think its to change his emotion when he sees other dogs. You don't want to train a reactive dog to just ignore, you want to change how he feels in that situation so that the reactivity is gone.


 Playdates despite what that behaviorist says (and I'm not a fan based on that point) are not helpful for a dog who has already attacked other dogs out of fear or aggression. It's not practical. And to a certain extent, you'd have a lot of people angry at you for putting other dogs at risk. 

I'd suggest finding a private trainer (meaning a good one) and working with Oliver privately. It will take him about 2-4 years to mature, grow up... and by the end of that you will probably see some of these behaviors begin to fade away with consistency and total management on your part. 

If you go to group classes, you have to alert the instructor about the attitudes of your dog and keep to your own corner. Generally speaking, I would not take an aggressive dog to pet obedience classes. Competition level classes, you are in a group with people who know more about dogs than most. So down the road (at least a year) after you start getting more obedience, confidence, etc through private lessons, you can start getting him into competition level classes. And those would really be the only group classes I'd risk taking with him.

The reactiveness - you have to assume will never go away. Because when you let your guard down, that allows for something to happen and it will put you back at square one. And my feeling is that the more incidents that happen, the aggressive responses get reinforced with these dogs.


----------



## Brave

I haven't heard much of the thread, and I apologize if this was already mentioned and I missed it; have you considered anxiety medication? It was something that was mentioned to me when Bear first started showing his reactivity right after we got clearance to do walks post surgery.


----------



## JanetBionda

I've been following your thread from the beginning and I'm very sorry for what your going through. 

Sorry if it's already been recommended. 
"Decoding you Dog" is an excellent book and helped me immensely with our dog reactive behaviour. 

I agree that I wouldn't expose my dog to situations that makes him reactive thus allowing him to "practice" the behaviour. I would want to work with a behaviourist/trainer under very controlled situations on counter conditioning and desensitization.


----------



## aussieresc

Have you considered something like Rescue Remedy to make him more relaxed? It's natural and may just calm him a little while you are working on training.

I agree with all of Megora's comments. I would not put this dog in a group class, nor would I want to be in a class with one of my own dogs with a dog like him. It is a very sad situation and unfortunately he may never behave in the way that we expect from Golden Retrievers. I am so sorry you are dealing with this.


----------



## sdhgolden

coaraujo said:


> I dont think the goal is to teach Oliver to ignore other dogs, I think its to change his emotion when he sees other dogs. You don't want to train a reactive dog to just ignore, you want to change how he feels in that situation so that the reactivity is gone. Otherwise its just a matter of what will cause him to go over the edge.



I completely agree if he can't change how he feels about other dogs he will be even more anxious if he is not allowed to look and them and know where they are. And if a dog comes close to him without him realizing it that would be bad. If he gets to a point where he chooses himself to ignore the other dog that is success. It sounds like you are figuring out his threshold. That is very helpful in determining his success of overcoming his fears. I think a vet behaviorist is your best bet. No trainer will be that comprehensive with an approach to understand and help your dog. The relaxation protocol is great! I don't know if I would do any classes with dogs that are not under a high level of control because that might make him more anxious. But that's just my opinion. I like the idea Ihowemt's suggestion about auditing. Oliver is not your average dog who just needs to learn to control himself around other dogs. It's more than that so I would be wary of just any trainer who claims to be a behaviorist. So I think you are doing the right things! You will have success with him. Maybe not to the way he was but he will be able to live a happy life if you keep at it.


----------



## TheZ's

Just a few thoughts on your recent posts. As far as I know PCOTC is the best training center in the southern CT, northern NYC area and I would expect their trainer to be very good. I would hope your behaviorist is very well qualified and knowledgeable. Agree that traveling to Morristown, NJ is a non-starter if it's for any kind of continuing training. If Oliver were my dog I'd put thinking about training for competitve obedience or field on a back burner and make being a dog that you can live with comfortably a priority.


----------



## coaraujo

We just had our first Relaxation Protocol Training. These were the steps we followed:

Day 1: Dog's Task

Sit for 5 seconds 
Sit for 10 seconds 
Sit while you take 1 step back and return 
Sit while you take 2 steps back and return 
Sit for 10 seconds 
Sit while you take 1 step to the right and return 
Sit while you take 1 step to the left and return 
Sit for 10 seconds 
Sit while you take 2 steps back and return 
Sit while you take 2 steps to the right and return 
Sit for 15 seconds 
Sit while you take 2 steps to the left and return
Sit while you clap your hands softly once 
Sit while you take 3 steps back and return 
Sit while you count out loud to 10 
Sit while you clap your hands softly once 
Sit while you count out loud to 20 
Sit while you take 3 steps to the right and return 
Sit while you clap your hands softly twice 
Sit for 3 seconds 
Sit for 5 seconds 
Sit while you take 1 step back and return 
Sit for 3 seconds 
Sit for 10 seconds 
Sit for 5 seconds 
Sit for 3 seconds

The whole point of this exercise is to clearly communicate to your dog and reward for relaxation. It was very interesting. Oliver was able to relax and focus on me for all of the reps except the sit for 15 seconds. He did the sit for 20 seconds while I counted out loud fine, but sitting in silence for 15 seconds with intermittent (Good Boy, Stay) seemed to be an issue to him. His ears turned back and he was listening/focusing elsewhere. He seemed a bit nervous, definitely not relaxed. I guess when there's silence he can't just sit and relax for long periods of time. If he heard me talking or watched me moving he was fine.

I am meeting with the trainer at PCOTC on Saturday for a short session so she can meet Oliver and we can figure out what class, if any, will be best for him. We need a class where we can just sit off to the side and do matt work and relaxation work. I don't think Grumpy Growlers will be good for that. 

We are rechecking his thyroid levels in a couple of weeks (around 6 weeks of being on the medication) to see if the medication has helped/made worse/etc his thyroid levels. I will definitely keep an eye out for him turning hyperthyroid. 

Thank you all again for your posts, I have been reading them all but am having trouble keeping up responding.

I really appreciate the advice about auditing - what a great idea!


----------



## tine434

Hm..... Good ideas. Glad he did fairly well. Rem is never comfortable sitting, he must lay down to fully relax. He wouldn't make it to the 10 seconds even, too much muscle work >. < doh 

Good luck!


----------



## coaraujo

tine434 said:


> Hm..... Good ideas. Glad he did fairly well. Rem is never comfortable sitting, he must lay down to fully relax. He wouldn't make it to the 10 seconds even, too much muscle work >. < doh
> 
> Good luck!


Thats a good point, maybe I'll try it with laying down instead. He had an issue with his right back leg when he was younger and still seems to keep his weight off of it, and it causes him to sit and lay down weird. So maybe it bothers him to sit.


----------



## coaraujo

Found this passage in the new book (Fired Up Frantic and Freaked out) I'm reading very interesting - describes Oliver to the T.

The author was going over the most popular reasons why training doesn't work with reactive dogs. 

#1 was *He's not interested in food while he's reacting*.
I loved her description. She threw out an example of a person getting mugged earlier and how your brain shuts off in that scenario so if someone were to ask you a simple math problem like 7*8, not only would you not be able to answer as quickly as you would in a relaxed setting, you probably wouldn't even bother attempting. Much like how a fearful/aggressive reactive dog can't comply known commands while reacting. She then relates this to the food issue. "In the mugging scenario above would you be interested if your friend offered you a candy bar at that moment, or would you think her insanely detached from reality" <- what a great way to think about it. When taking Oliver for a walk on Sunday I brought along beef-a-roni - super high value yummy treat. Not only would he not take the treat as we walked by a house with barking dogs, but he wouldn't accept it as soon as we walked out the front door. Over threshold immediately.

This author says - in relation to not accepting food treats "We will rely upon gradual approximations and controlled exposure to raise the dog's threshold and skills in preparation to meet and cope with triggers. As we'll see one reason I require food is to make sure the triggers aren't outrunning the new skills. If the dog doesn't eat, we're doing it wrong"

Very excited to get through this book. I think it will be very good for us.


----------



## lhowemt

Yay, sounds like there is so much to learn and opportunities to improve. You'll get there, and what a bond you two will have!


----------



## coaraujo

We completed Day 2 of the relaxation protocol today, started shaping matwork and did some target training. For the target training we did 3 different sessions in 3 different rooms, living room, kitchen, and back deck. He already knows how to target to my hand but I really need to drill this in in a variety of different settings slowly adding distractions so that he'll be able to complete this even when he's distracted and anxious. He did well with the matwork. I ordered a travel mat online but for now we're just using a towel. It didn't take him very long to figure out laying on the mat is awesome. I was even able to click for some relaxation on the mat as he adjusted himself into a more relaxed down. I did the relaxation protocol with both dogs. They did really well, no anxiety signs from Oliver this time around. I feel like its like doing doggy yoga with them or something. They both get all zen like from it. 

So at least training is going well. I'm having a rough night stress wise though and can't sleep. This whole situation seems to have me on a roller coaster ride. One day I'm up and thinking we're going to get through this and the next I'm afraid he's going to get worse. I'm afraid to even have him around my little sisters anymore. I don't trust him at all. He's never been aggressive toward people but I feel like he so easily seems to go over threshold and react I'm afraid he would, especially since children are small and possibly seem more like a dog-friend than a person. That's really got me upset tonight. My parents and sisters were supposed to come visit labor day weekend, but now I don't know if they should. Or maybe I could just muzzle Oliver. The fact that this fear even crosses my mind is devastating to me. I just want my old Oliver back. Where did my sweet boy go.


----------



## lestat1978

*Thyroid*

My Doberman had similar issues although not as bad. A lot of Doberman owners (although a significant contingent referred to listening to Dr. Dodds as drinking the koolaid) recommended Dr. Dodds. Ivan was also low normal and put on meds. Didn't help. Raised the dose. Didn't help. Then was told the dose was too high and his body was dumping the meds to compensate. Didn't help and made me feel like we were throwing baloney at a wall to see what would stick. 

My regular vet didn't think my dog needed supplemented. A dermatologist at a specialty clinic didn't think Ivan needed supplemented. She also said that none of Dr. Dodds current research is peer reviewed. She said what Dr. Dodds did early on was a good thing, but not so impressed with what she's doing lately. Since it didn't help Ivan he's no longer supplemented. 

I also find it interesting, just an observation, that low normal needing treatment and Dr. Dodds go hand and hand. It seems almost a guarantee if one is brought up it's in context of the other. 

It is also my understanding that most behaviorist don't actually believe the thyroid is to blame for aggression.


----------



## JanetBionda

I do think low or high thyroid can cause anxiety which in turn can lead to a dog being reactive to other dogs if somewhere down the line they formed a negative association with dogs. It's not just dr Dodds. If you do the research their is plenty of information to support it, in humans, cats and dogs. I don't know about the low normal in golden retrievers being too low; however, one characteristic of a Golden Retriever is that they are very sensitive which may mean that their reaction to low thyroid is increased.

I'm not saying that hyperthyroidism or hypothyroidism causes aggression but that it's a contributing factor. I think that a dog with thyroid problems has a tougher time with getting over a traumatic event or they perceive events that are minor in a different light. (Making a mountain out of a molehill)

Just my 2 cents worth.


----------



## lhowemt

I am so so sorry, this has got to be heart wrenching and not fair. Keep focusing on success, THAT is what is going to happen. And try try try to conteol your own anxiety so it doesn't feed him. It is so easy for me to say that from here..... for Labor Day I think you need to revisit it. You don't want major backtracking nor a disaster. Can you isolate the boys together somewhere, even just for 2 days? It won't be that fun for them but maybe relaxed guests that he dowsn't have to encounter would be good. The muzzle may be something to consider too. Until you have confidence in him I would play it safe, esp as you are so nervous. Don't beat yourself up, this will take time and work and you can't force it. How about getting them a hotel so at least the boys can have their normal house at night?


----------



## inge

I am following your thread, although I don't have any advice for you, other than: hold on to your feelings for the sweet boy he used to be and will be again. Trust your instinct. Hugs!


----------



## coaraujo

JanetBionda said:


> I'm not saying that hyperthyroidism or hypothyroidism causes aggression but that it's a contributing factor. I think that a dog with thyroid problems has a tougher time with getting over a traumatic event or they perceive events that are minor in a different light. (Making a mountain out of a molehill)
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth.


Thats something my behaviorist said. Or similar. She said right now for Oliver the world has to be a certain way and function a certain way for him to consider it normal. If anything goes not according to plan he completely freaks out (makes a mountain out of a molehill). He doesn't know how to deal with when things are shaken up a bit. He's learned to act aggressively and its possible that his thyroid issues make him more inclined to freak out. Like you said - doesn't cause the aggression as that is something that is learned and partly genetic, but definitely makes it worse. 


Thank you all for your kind words and support. Its very nice to have other people who care just as much about their dogs around who understand. Its not all that easy to explain to others.


----------



## readmeli

Hugs to you going through this. I have been through similar and it caused me so much stress and anxiety I had to go on blood pressure meds and anti anxiety meds!

I will say it again - try meds for anxiety, aggression, etc. I wish SO MUCH that I had done this months before with my dog!! I was afraid of the stigma, or it would make her worse...etc..etc... Well guess what? All my fears just made us go through this longer and putting her on Prozac was the best thing we ever did and now we are happy and healthy and nobody is hurt or stressed. Please please please consider this.

Hopefully you can continue the conditioning to the muzzle. Many dogs live their life in a muzzle quite a lot and it is just fine. A lot of it is OUR STIGMA. The dog doesnt care really, if he's conditioned properly. One friend of mine going through this probably would have had to put her dog down had she not got a muzzle on him - and now 6 months later they are doing much better... and she doesnt have to be afraid.

Again, hugs to you. Keep it up - you are doing so well!


----------



## coaraujo

Very interesting article about whether a dog needs to be medicated or not:

The 3 P's: Does Your Dog Need Medication? | Suzanne Clothier

Noting that persistance is a very important tell. When Oliver reacts there's not stopping him without physical interference. He is very much like the GR in the example in the article. His responses are disproportionate and will require training to "correct," but they are also persistant..they last a very long time and he's completely unresponsive to me. Very interesting. 

As of right now my vet behaviorist doesn't want to put him on anxiety medication just yet. I guess after we do a few more weeks of training we'll bring it up again and see what she says.

Thank you everyone


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Sending you another hug! 

You know, I respect your behaviorist's wish to be able to observe Oliver in his natural state, but the quality of YOUR life needs to be considered, as well. If using medication dials his anxiety down a notch it could make him more able to learn (the analogy I use is if someone has a gun to your head and then says, "now, about Calculus...learn it!!!"--how well is that going to work?).

But more important, it could make YOUR life more relaxed. You are learning how to manage him to avoid failure and that just may be what it takes--I had to come to that realization with my own genetically-fearful Aussie. Her life is better on medication and MY life is better with her on medication!

Again, my sympathies and sincere admiration for the effort you're making for your very fortunate dog.


----------



## coaraujo

Neuter appointment has just been scheduled for both boys. Their losing their nuggest next Tuesday. I know its a routine procedure, but I'm really nervous about it. If something went wrong...ahh. I'm sure it'll be fine, deep breaths. I also pray that this either has no effect or makes Oliver a little less rash in his decision making. I was warned by my behaviorist that sometimes when dogs are neutered they get more anxious. She said at his age though most likely there will be no effect. If either of these boys get more anxious...well we'll all be needing drugs. Full thryoid panel getting done today as well to check how the medication has been working for the boys.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

I'm glad to hear that you're going ahead with the neutering--it does take a few weeks and sometimes months for those BOY DOG hormones to be reduced in their systems.

Again, I respect your behaviorist and her experience and I'm just theorizing over the internet here, but just from a Darwinian perspective, it would make sense that the reproduce-at-any-cost hormones would be powerful behavioral drivers. With two intact dogs relatively close in age, I could see how they'd be feeding off each other in terms of genetic competition with other dogs, purely instinctively. Training can override a lot of instinct, but that drive to reproduce is pretty primal. Dialing that down a few notches might be a big help? 

Hope you can relax some this weekend!


----------



## aussieresc

Don't be surprised to see a surge in the hormones right after neuter. I believe it takes about 3 weeks for them to die down.


----------



## murphy1

I've not read all the posts but my question is why hasn't he been neutered yet?


----------



## JanetBionda

coaraujo said:


> Very interesting article about whether a dog needs to be medicated or not:
> 
> The 3 P's: Does Your Dog Need Medication? | Suzanne Clothier
> 
> Noting that persistance is a very important tell. When Oliver reacts there's not stopping him without physical interference. He is very much like the GR in the example in the article. His responses are disproportionate and will require training to "correct," but they are also persistant..they last a very long time and he's completely unresponsive to me. Very interesting.
> 
> As of right now my vet behaviorist doesn't want to put him on anxiety medication just yet. I guess after we do a few more weeks of training we'll bring it up again and see what she says.
> 
> Thank you everyone


Great article! Thank you!

This bit reminded me of something I've read and have been adhering to: 
"I sometimes point out gently that sky high cortisol levels for chronically stressed/distressed animals is not natural and has some very nasty side effects indeed."

Cortisol levels can take up to 48 hours to drop so if Scrappy has had a stressful day I try to make the next 48 hours as calm as possible for him. Stressful events are cumulative. So the more stressful events that I expose scrappy to in a short span of time the more jumpy and reactive he will be. 

He has an appointment with specialists regarding his hyperthyroidism for the beginning of next month. I plan to make the 48 hours prior to his visit as relaxing as possible so he's better equipped to handle the situation. I know that for 48 hours after the visit he will need some major down time.


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> Neuter appointment has just been scheduled for both boys. Their losing their nuggest next Tuesday. I know its a routine procedure, but I'm really nervous about it. If something went wrong...ahh. I'm sure it'll be fine, deep breaths. I also pray that this either has no effect or makes Oliver a little less rash in his decision making. I was warned by my behaviorist that sometimes when dogs are neutered they get more anxious. She said at his age though most likely there will be no effect. If either of these boys get more anxious...well we'll all be needing drugs. Full thryoid panel getting done today as well to check how the medication has been working for the boys.


The neutering is much harder on the parents that on the fur kids. I was a wreck before the surgery for all of my dogs. With Tucker I postponed it three times for the simplest reasons... My daughter finally said "Mom, just get it done!" Your two will be just fine. I hope it has no negative effect on either. Since they are both anxious animals, just be sure to get the post-surgery pain meds... You don't have to give the meds, but you want to have them on hand if the dogs seem in pain in the middle of the night. Good luck!


----------



## lhowemt

coaraujo said:


> Very interesting article about whether a dog needs to be medicated or not:
> 
> The 3 P's: Does Your Dog Need Medication? | Suzanne Clothier
> 
> Noting that persistance is a very important tell. When Oliver reacts there's not stopping him without physical interference. He is very much like the GR in the example in the article. His responses are disproportionate and will require training to "correct," but they are also persistant..they last a very long time and he's completely unresponsive to me. Very interesting.
> 
> As of right now my vet behaviorist doesn't want to put him on anxiety medication just yet. I guess after we do a few more weeks of training we'll bring it up again and see what she says.
> 
> Thank you everyone


I haven't read the article yet (sorry) but let's look at this from the stigma perspective. If he has a questionable thyroid, and medication might, or might not help, would you delay? If it were a possible infection (just as an example), would you wait? I say this only because of the horrible stigma with mental illness in our society. Medication is a powerful tool, and for many people it is just a tool. Use it, deal with the other stuff (now easier because of the meds) and then later get off it. I see this similarly, if it were my dog and there is a good chance it could improve things, I wouldn't delay. Just food for thought, I'm not judging your decision and as always wish you and Oliver well.


----------



## lhowemt

I read the article, that was good. It does seem to point to Oliver possibly seeing some benefits.

Are you taking care of yourself during this time? Eating (well), drinking water and getting some decent sleep? Don't forget about yourself


----------



## coaraujo

I actually have been pretty sick lately, but its not related to this. So other than that I've been taking care of myself  sleeping and eating, etc. Thank you for asking!


We had a vet visit today. Pre-Op bloodwork to make sure everythings in order to get anesthesia. And Thyroid panel to check how the medication has been working. I also had them check out Oliver right back leg which was where he had his issues when he was younger. He still doens't use it right. He runs strange and lays/sits weird with it sometimes. Well after a lot of poking and prodding and stretching he didn't show any signs of distress so thats good. We're going to have xrays done while he's neutered and compare to his orginials just to be safe since he'll already be under. So it looks like he may just use it weird because thats how he got used to it when he was younger.


Its so interesting to see his different reactions. He was so anxious and nervous at the vet. Hiding behind me and pulling back when the tech tried to take him to draw blood. But the whole time he just either tries to get away or takes it until he can run to Mom for comfort. If he ever felt these emotions around another dog he'd definitely go off aggressively. I wonder why in one scenario he can act one way - more appropriately with more self control and in the other its like he's lost his brain. 


As for the medication, I'd rather not put him on a new medication until we have his thryoid stabilized. Don't want to be throwing too many things together before we get things settled. I feel like my behaviorist mentioned something about the two interacting? I don't remember clearly though. That and I'd like to kind of do one thing at a time if that makes sense so we can see whats helping and what isn't. Thyroid medication hasn't seemed to have any effect. We'll see if neutering helps. Then anxiety medication possibly, etc. That and we're still having issues with him eating. He threw up this morning and refused one kind of food. Gave him something else and he was fine. Don't want to add something else that could upset his stomach until we get that figured out. So much going on, eek!

As for the neutering I can't remember if my behaviorist said that the hormone levels drop after 3 days or 3 weeks, but apparently it happens relatively quickly. So I guess within a month we'll see if there is any behavioral change? We won't be doing anything with him from Tuesday-Labor day just resting and taking it easy. In response to why he hasn't been neutered yet - I was never planning on neutering either of them. But at the earliest if I were to do it I wanted to wait until they were 2. Bernie is 2 and Oliver is a week shy of turning 2 so even though I don't want to I feel better about having waited at least this long.


Thank you everyone :wave:.


----------



## boomers_dawn

Aaawwww. When my Boomsies went to get neutered I was a basket case.
Worried about everything - would he change, would he be different, would he not be himself, no more "nuggets" as you called them :bawling:

Lucky for me the only change was GOOD - he was still his same old silly self, just less edgy and less obnoxious.

These cheered me up - I opted not to use them b/c foreign object implants for no reason other than MY neuroses, but I like the idea and I love the word - neuticles. NEUTICLES!!!!
Neuticles.com


----------



## coaraujo

boomers_dawn said:


> Aaawwww. When my Boomsies went to get neutered I was a basket case.
> Worried about everything - would he change, would he be different, would he not be himself, no more "nuggets" as you called them :bawling:
> 
> Lucky for me the only change was GOOD - he was still his same old silly self, just less edgy and less obnoxious.
> 
> These cheered me up - I opted not to use them b/c foreign object implants for no reason other than MY neuroses, but I like the idea and I love the word - neuticles. NEUTICLES!!!!
> Neuticles.com


LOL neuticles . That did make me smile, thank you.

I hope we have the same results as you did with Boomer. I know at this point nothing will make it go away except for diligent training, but I would love for anything to make it less severe.

At least now Berniekins can start competing! Hopefully he doesn't lose any of that crazy drive and just gains some obedience manners


----------



## coaraujo

Here's a video of Oliver and I working on mat work. Using the techniques described in Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked out. This is our second day working on it. We had another session right before this, but it ended up being 8 minutes long so I figured I'd post the shorter one. Something I noticed from recording is my clicks are way too delayed. Need to get better at that. Fortunately he still seemed to get the message. He is understanding getting on the mat/towel pretty well, so in this video you'll see me working on him getting into a relaxed state on the mat. Working on getting him to rest his chin on the floor. He is starting to lay down in a more relaxed position every time he gets on the mat. He used to do a more formal down, and now he's usually adjusting to his side. Progress.


----------



## Charliethree

Agree with you, give it time to see if what you are doing is going to work. Keep in mind there is no 'time frame' and the longer the history of the learned behavior, (the more 'practice' they have had) the more difficult it is for them to overcome. Take the time to acknowledge and 'celebrate' even the smallest of successes, focus on what he 'can' do, today, the 'mat work' looks amazing, it is wonderful how quickly they catch on! 

Take a good look at life at home, the one place he should always feel safe. Things we don't think of can be adding stress/anxiety to their lives. Consider whether there is too much 'going on', not enough 'down time' , or 'fun time' to relax the body and brain may be a factor, skipping a walk and doing something fun and relaxing can be very beneficial for both of you. Feeding meals in the same room with another dog, though you may have always done it, consider whether it may be stressful for them. Crating, though it took us a while to realize it, our reactive dog was not as 'content' being crated as we assumed he was. He would go in, no problem, no fuss, but after being left alone and crated for even an hour or two, he would come out 'wired' and it would take a long time before he could settle down, should have been our first 'clue'.
Your feelings of frustration, doubt, and fear of failing or what the future holds, are normal for anyone with a reactive dog, have a chat with your behaviorist about how you feel, she will understand and can help put things into perspective. It is overwhelming, scary, complex, progress may be slow, regression or set backs, though normal and to be expected, can take our feet right from under us, but, we need to keep in mind that as 'hard' as it is for us, it is just as 'hard' (if not moreso) for our dogs.
Try to focus on one day at a time, like a puzzle, we may have to try several pieces to find the right one, each piece in the 'right' place, builds a foundation and new hope for tomorrow.
'Believe' in him, he 'believes' in you!


----------



## lhowemt

Look at that! He is so cute learning to lay his head down. Yes I would click much faster, but since you are teaching calming maybe your timing is fine. Clicking can be so exciting.

Bummer to hear you have been sick, summer is supposed to be free of that! Yuk. I completely agree with not changing too many things at once, good for you for having the patience.

Keep up the good work. He seems to be so sweet. That sweet heart will prevail.


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> Here's a video of Oliver and I working on mat work. Using the techniques described in Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked out. This is our second day working on it. We had another session right before this, but it ended up being 8 minutes long so I figured I'd post the shorter one. Something I noticed from recording is my clicks are way too delayed. Need to get better at that. Fortunately he still seemed to get the message. He is understanding getting on the mat/towel pretty well, so in this video you'll see me working on him getting into a relaxed state on the mat. Working on getting him to rest his chin on the floor. He is starting to lay down in a more relaxed position every time he gets on the mat. He used to do a more formal down, and now he's usually adjusting to his side. Progress.


Where do you put Bernie when you are working with Oliver? Does he fuss and distract Ollie? Always a challenge for me with two dogs.


----------



## KeaColorado

I think it's great that you're recording your progress on video. I've just started doing that with Kea and Harris, and it's amazing what I notice mainly about mistake I'm making myself when I go back and watch later.


----------



## coaraujo

OutWest said:


> Where do you put Bernie when you are working with Oliver? Does he fuss and distract Ollie? Always a challenge for me with two dogs.


I had Bernie behind a baby gate down the hallway. He was barking a bit at first, but after I asked him to be quiet and lay down he settled. I randomly tossed treats his way too to reward him for being good. The more we train separately the more they get used to it. When we first started Bernie would bark a ton, but he's starting to understand to wait his turn.


----------



## coaraujo

KeaColorado said:


> I think it's great that you're recording your progress on video. I've just started doing that with Kea and Harris, and it's amazing what I notice mainly about mistake I'm making myself when I go back and watch later.


I make SOOO many mistakes. Videos are my saving grace for stopping me from screwing up our training


----------



## coaraujo

Charliethree said:


> Take a good look at life at home, the one place he should always feel safe. Things we don't think of can be adding stress/anxiety to their lives. Consider whether there is too much 'going on', not enough 'down time' , or 'fun time' to relax the body and brain may be a factor, skipping a walk and doing something fun and relaxing can be very beneficial for both of you. Feeding meals in the same room with another dog, though you may have always done it, consider whether it may be stressful for them. Crating, though it took us a while to realize it, our reactive dog was not as 'content' being crated as we assumed he was. He would go in, no problem, no fuss, but after being left alone and crated for even an hour or two, he would come out 'wired' and it would take a long time before he could settle down, should have been our first 'clue'.


That's very interesting. The boys have been crated a lot more recently because we won't leave them alone together now that Oliver seems to be so unpredictable. I wonder if all that crate time is making him more wired. He really struggles with overstimulation. Like when we went outside first thing in the morning him and Bernie were doing their typical wrestling, but Oliver was going over threshold so I had to intervene and ask him to settle. I didn't want him to get aggressive. But its like he's a horse right out of the starting gate when we let him out in the morning and after work. He goes nuts. I think he needs to be exercised more. We're just really struggling with finding ways to do that since we can't take him anywhere and they're crated all the time.

Another point was about food. We're really struggling with getting Oliver to eat. When we were feeding one at a time neither dog would eat. So I went back to feeding them together but hand feeding. They both seem to lose their resource guarding issue if I'm feeding them (no bowls to guard). But sometimes Oliver still won't eat. I'll put a piece of food on the mat for Bernie and a piece for Oliver. Oliver won't eat his until Bernie finishes eating? I try to hand him the food and he just ignores it. I don't get it. Its very strange. I dont want him to be eating because he feels pressure that Bernie is going to steal his food, but I can't get him to eat by himself. He's beyond difficult right now, I don't know whats gonig on in his head.


----------



## coaraujo

Last quick update. Today we met with one of the trainers at PCOTC. When we arrived Oliver was really uncomfortable. He was in the back seat just shaking. He wouldn't take treats in the car. I brought baked parmesean crusted chicken. And he just ignored it. There was a class getting out a few minutes after we arrived. Oliver watched all the dogs go and it definitely made him tense up. I offered a treat with each dog but he never took it. One dog made him growl - this black puffy medium sized dog. 

When inside the training center he was very nervous. Peering around corners and jumping up on me like "save me mom". We just heeled around the empty room to try and calm him. He wouldn't take treats at first. But when my BF came in (he had to stop to pee first) Oliver started taking treats occasionally. We were able to get him to somewhat settle and lay down with us. Then the trainer took out her dog on the opposite side of the room. Oliver watched intently. Occasionally took treats. The more the dog moved and the closer it go the less interest Oliver had in the chicken (obviously), but not once did he make any sort of outwards reaction. Because of this the trainer said it'll be okay for Oliver to be in the shy and fearful dog class. She just doens't want him errupting in class. There will be three of us in the class and its 4 weeks long. Its a huge room so I think it'll give us enough space to avoid any outwards reactivity. We're just going to go each week and lay down on our mat and do doggy yoga - relaxation exercises. I think it'll be really good for him. I just can't believe how nervous he gets going to new places. The poor thing, I felt so bad. What did I do to make him so nervous? He never used to be like this, its crazy.


----------



## Max's Dad

First, you did not do anything to make Oliver feel so nervous. For his regular feeding, have you tried different dog foods? A couple of years ago, we did a taste test with Max of 6 different foods, and he definitely had a preference. Although Max has never been a picky or reluctant eater.


----------



## aussieresc

Since he wouldn't take food until your boyfriend came in have you tried having him be the one to train him in class or take the lead with him? 

I have a friend who I work with in rescue. She is a very put together and in control person. She is also very dog savvy. She mentioned how she had a dog that would act like a fool every time she had the dog on leash. Meanwhile when her boyfriend walked him he never acted out. The main reason for it was because she was expecting him to act aggressively and was so on guard the dog was reading that and giving her the behavior she was expecting. Her boyfriend was not as dog savvy and when he walked the dog he wasn't anticipating anything. Not saying this is the case here, but might be something to consider.


----------



## lhowemt

You didn't neceesarily cause it. I am sure there are mutiple reasons but not a sole one. You are not doing him any good by beating yourself up and eating all that guilt. Drop that thought and get a new mantra such as "I will help Oliver get better and together we will thrive". Every time those self blaming thoughts come into your mind say that. It doesn't even matter if you did, what you should now focus on is what will you do to help Oliver through this. You and Oliver must share the "little engine that could" mindset! Yes you can!


----------



## coaraujo

I do wonder if im giving off signs that make oliver more anxious and reactive. I think we will try switching it up to see if theres a difference. Thanks for bringing that up. 

I love the phrase for us as "the little engine that could" 


Really resting his head now . He also got up and left when he heard bernie bark outside and it took about 30 seconds for him to comeback and lie down again . Still have alot of work to do to get him loving his mat!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mylissyk

Off top question, but does his eye always have tears like that? If it does, you might ask the vet if he has eyelashes turned into the eye. It's a condition called entropion and can be corrected with minor surgery to the eyelid.


----------



## coaraujo

mylissyk said:


> Off top question, but does his eye always have tears like that? If it does, you might ask the vet if he has eyelashes turned into the eye. It's a condition called entropion and can be corrected with minor surgery to the eyelid.


Yes his eye always leaks like that. He doesn't have entropian (or an entropian? not sure how its supposed to be phrased). It has something to do with his tear duct, there's no hole for it to drip down into his nasal passage I think? We go annually for eye clearances and the ophthalmologist said there's supposed to be a hole for drainage in the eye, but on his left side there's no hole. I think that every so often it'd have to be opened surgically. But if we did it it'd be more for looks than anything because it doesn't cause him any discomfort or cause any infections.

ETA if we do ever end up getting it done my breeder has offered to pay for it


----------



## aussieresc

He has a very worried look on his face. Has the behavior gotten worse since the thyroid meds?


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> He has a very worried look on his face. Has the behavior gotten worse since the thyroid meds?


I think the expression looks worried because of the angle, hes actually extremely attentive because I was using some super delish canned food. When hes rly trying hard to figure out what i want I feel like he kind of raises his eyebrows lol. So were not quite in the relaxed state but the book says change the vehavior and youll change the emotion so hopefully as we continue to practice hell rest his head in relaxation. 

As for the thyroid medicine I dont think ive really seen much of a difference - positive or negative. He might be more sensitive now, like his threshold is lower. But im not sure if thats because of the medicine or if its because hes had more rewarding aggressive experiences. Our retest comes in tomorrow so we will see what the results say. Bernie seems to be doing really well on the medicine. I wouldn't be surprised if Oliver needed to come off of it. 

Something that was brought up after I contacted Gayle from Gaylans and Olivers grandsire (dam side) was when was his last rabies shot and does the timing fit with his aggression starting. Whats strange is it does. He had his rabies shot in late dec and his aggression started while we were in breed handling which was right around that time. Slowly gotten worse. I wonder if they were thinking if rabies miasm when they broughtthat up? Ive never heard of it and dont know much about it. Food for thought

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

http://www.greenacreskennel.com/pet-health/tikken-vaccines-aggression-and-homeopathy

Sounds alot like Oliver.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## aussieresc

Here is another article on rabies miasm Rabies Miasm In Dogs | Dogs Naturally Magazine

It seems like there is no proof if the vaccine really does this. Might be worth a trip to a holistic vet to see if they can prescribe something.


----------



## tippykayak

coaraujo said:


> Tikken - Vaccines, Aggression and Homeopathy - Pet Health - Green Acres Kennel Shop
> 
> Sounds alot like Oliver.


It is also completely unfounded pseudoscience. It works on the Forer Effect, which is when something is described in broad enough terms that it can fit many situations. ALL dogs are given rabies shots, and if you look at the laundry list of symptoms, it would be hard to find a dog with a behavioral or health problem who _didn't_ fit the definition of "rabies miasm" as it is presented in that article and the second one posted.

Add in a little correlation/causation fallacy, and you can take any mysterious condition and apply whatever vague diagnosis to it you please.


----------



## lhowemt

tippykayak said:


> It is also completely unfounded pseudoscience. It works on the Forer Effect, which is when something is described in broad enough terms that it can fit many situations. ALL dogs are given rabies shots, and if you look at the laundry list of symptoms, it would be hard to find a dog with a behavioral or health problem who _didn't_ fit the definition of "rabies miasm" as it is presented in that article and the second one posted.
> 
> Add in a little correlation/causation fallacy, and you can take any mysterious condition and apply whatever vague diagnosis to it you please.


Hi Brian Buzzkill  while you may be correct on a general and population level, it is this individuals response that matters. Oliver's mom may learn something useful by putting a holistic vet on her list of things to try. Especially if the change was timed rather close. As an engineer when something goes wrong the first thing we look for was what was done to the system most recently. Anything? If so dig in there. Vaccines can and do have profound unintended impacts on individuals. After reading about that I'd put a holistic vet on my list of things to try before ssri's.


----------



## tippykayak

lhowemt said:


> Hi Brian Buzzkill  while you may be correct on a general and population level, it is this individuals response that matters. Oliver's mom may learn something useful by putting a holistic vet on her list of things to try. Especially if the change was timed rather close. As an engineer when something goes wrong the first thing we look for was what was done to the system most recently. Anything? If so dig in there. Vaccines can and do have profound unintended impacts on individuals. After reading about that I'd put a holistic vet on my list of things to try before ssri's.


I understand that when you have a problem, the most recent change is a good place to look, but there is no evidence that the rabies vaccine causes behavior changes, certainly not the "rabies light" symptoms suggested by those online sources. It would be like finding a break in your system and examining anything in the immediate area as a potential cause. Like if your car broke down and you decided to explore whether it was the fact that you changed the flavor of your oatmeal that morning.

A holistic vet is a good suggestion. A vet who tries to integrate information about a dog's whole life, rather than focusing on symptoms only, is a great resource for behavioral issues.

But when non-vets diagnose made up diseases with no basis in research, it can undermine a legitimate medical process. I know this dog and I care a lot about his progress, and I feel strongly that applying disease definitions from far outside the medical spectrum can actually be quite harmful in a situation like this. OP has real vets and vet behaviorists on the case. Adding another professional vet with a different perspective could have merit. Exploring diseases that are almost certainly not real is not. 

Sorry for the impolite language in my original post. I could have been more sensitive in what I had to say. But I do believe that there are a lot of simply made up diseases and conditions out there, and when people pursue treatment based on fictional diagnosis, it can backfire. Apparently that one story worked out, but think of all the children who were harmed by the stories about vaccine/autism or gluten/autism connections that turned out to be completely false. Treating Oliver with made-up non-medicine like homeopathic dilutions could be worse than harmless.


----------



## coaraujo

lol I am not at all surprised that you have that view on this issue Brian. I do agree, especially in the Dogs Naturally article that it basically describes everything under the sun as a symptom. So there are probably quite a few owners out there who could think "my dog has rabies miasm!" when really its a training issue, or an event caused the aggression, etc. I tend to take most of what DNM says with a grain of salt. 

With that being said...Like Ihowemt said Oliver's unique case seems to fit more closely. His aggression is very similar to what you'd see in a rabid animal. Its persistant, its not necessarily explainable, he's paranoid. And its a complete 180 from his prior self. While it could be that this genetic component is finally being brought out randomly I don't think it would hurt to travel down this path. Its not going to stop us from doing all the training we've started, but it'll be an add-on that could or could not help. We shall see.

Its definitely not unheard of for dogs to have adverse reactions to vaccines, or to get a form of the disease the vaccine is protecting against. Oliver had lyme disease when he got his rabies vaccine, so his immune system was compromised. The animal is much more likely to be suseptible to something like this happening in that case. I am still waiting to hear back from Goose's owner (Oilvers grandsire) to see if she has any more information on the subject.


----------



## lhowemt

Yes fake medcine wastes a lot of people's time and health, I agree that is frustrating and maddening.


----------



## Ljilly28

This is what helped change my dog for the far better( thanks to Tufts behavior for helping)
1) Lower the protein
2) Neuter
3) Fluxetine
4) Click and reward all appropriate social signals to other dogs
5) Ruff Love program for 8 weeks for any set back- no interactions with other dogs and little self rewarding- lots of rewarding by me. We learned key words that change his emotional state, for example the word TREE. I captured anytime he looked for a squirrel. I had him sit stay and hid toys and treats in the tree, then sent him to get them TREE. Now if other dogs crowd or annoy him, I have a safe word. All I have to say is tree, and his whole face brightens and he looks up. His emotional state alters for the better & safer.

6) Accept you have to manage the dog so he can never practice or rehearse dangerous behaviors- it is on you 100 percent if he hurts another dog.

7) Be ultra aware of trigger stacking and factor that in to what you allow

8) let go of some of what you want the dog to be, and see who he is. My dog is a champion every day he gets along peacefully with the other four. That is his winning.

9) make sure your basic obedience is rock solid and especially your recall is 100 percent

10) Write a list of instructions for how to manage the dog in case you have appendicitis, a car accident etc and a neighbor needs to care for the pets overnight or whatever.


----------



## TheZ's

Interesting about the inquiry about timing of the rabies vaccination and the fact that he got the vaccination while he was fighting a Lyme infection. You're being very diligent in trying to get this sorted out. Really hope you get to the bottom of it. Hope all goes well for your boys tomorrow.


----------



## Charliethree

Though I understand the desire to determine the 'why' of Oliver's reactive behavior, one consideration that seems to be, and is often, overlooked is the dog's 'life experiences' and the reality that the negative associations he has formed towards other dogs have developed and progressed/escalated over a period of time. 

With repeated exposure to a situation or environment that the dog finds frightening/stressful, and overwhelming, but have no escape from, they can begin to escalate. They learn that the 'calming' signals don't work to create or maintain 'space', so they become 'vocal', (growling and barking) if that doesn't work, as a 'last resort', the dog may become 'physical' (lunging, chasing, attacking) in an effort to create and maintain 'space' and ultimately 'safety' for themselves. 'Relaxed' to 'reactive' can happen seemingly overnight, perhaps triggered by a traumatic event, or it can develop slowly over time, but regardless the 'reason' for the reactivity, it can be akin to search for a needle in a haystack, and we can't change that, our time is better spent looking 'forward', and focusing on helping our dogs feel better about the world they live in.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Did any of Oliver's littermates have this kind of behavioral change that you are aware of? If there was some kind of vaccinosis problem, I would think that dogs with similar genetics would have similar reactions?

There are so many variables--fear stages, pack order, the genetic propensities that are hardwired, diet, exercise, overall health, vaccines, experiences that could be perceived as traumatic at a key point in development, etc. etc. etc.

I am actually acquainted with the man in that article on rabies miasm, although I have never taken a class with him directly. He runs a very good boarding facility and has several good trainers I've worked with there. That being said, when you run a training facility and end up with a dog with severe behavioral problems in a typically "easy" breed, it could be a pretty rough thing to deal with professionally as well as personally. For these folks, their dogs sort of are their resumes. So I can see why he'd be eager for an outside reason for the problem? 

I also think it's interesting that his dog was diagnosed as having an "abnormal thyroid" at the same time, but it was not considered necessary to treat it. Since this was back in 2000, the prevalence of thyroid problems in Goldens probably wasn't as well known as it is now.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of where this dog came from. Shelter, backyard breeder, rescue? So there's another whole set of unknown factors. Since it seems like the initial incidence was that she attacked another dog with a significant size difference, maybe it's also possible trouble had been brewing for some time between them and what would have just been a squabble with two similar size dogs ended up with severe damage instead?


----------



## coaraujo

Ljilly28 said:


> This is what helped change my dog for the far better( thanks to Tufts behavior for helping)
> 1) Lower the protein
> 2) Neuter
> 3) Fluxetine
> 4) Click and reward all appropriate social signals to other dogs
> 5) Ruff Love program for 8 weeks for any set back- no interactions with other dogs and little self rewarding- lots of rewarding by me. We learned key words that change his emotional state, for example the word TREE. I captured anytime he looked for a squirrel. I had him sit stay and hid toys and treats in the tree, then sent him to get them TREE. Now if other dogs crowd or annoy him, I have a safe word. All I have to say is tree, and his whole face brightens and he looks up. His emotional state alters for the better & safer.
> 
> 6) Accept you have to manage the dog so he can never practice or rehearse dangerous behaviors- it is on you 100 percent if he hurts another dog.
> 
> 7) Be ultra aware of trigger stacking and factor that in to what you allow
> 
> 8) let go of some of what you want the dog to be, and see who he is. My dog is a champion every day he gets along peacefully with the other four. That is his winning.
> 
> 9) make sure your basic obedience is rock solid and especially your recall is 100 percent
> 
> 10) Write a list of instructions for how to manage the dog in case you have appendicitis, a car accident etc and a neighbor needs to care for the pets overnight or whatever.


 
Thank you so much for this, this is great information - I really appreciate it! I was thinking of starting crate games with Oliver because he really lacks impulse control even after all the training we've done.


----------



## coaraujo

Charliethree said:


> Though I understand the desire to determine the 'why' of Oliver's reactive behavior, one consideration that seems to be, and is often, overlooked is the dog's 'life experiences' and the reality that the negative associations he has formed towards other dogs have developed and progressed/escalated over a period of time.
> 
> With repeated exposure to a situation or environment that the dog finds frightening/stressful, and overwhelming, but have no escape from, they can begin to escalate. They learn that the 'calming' signals don't work to create or maintain 'space', so they become 'vocal', (growling and barking) if that doesn't work, as a 'last resort', the dog may become 'physical' (lunging, chasing, attacking) in an effort to create and maintain 'space' and ultimately 'safety' for themselves. 'Relaxed' to 'reactive' can happen seemingly overnight, perhaps triggered by a traumatic event, or it can develop slowly over time, but regardless the 'reason' for the reactivity, it can be akin to search for a needle in a haystack, and we can't change that, our time is better spent looking 'forward', and focusing on helping our dogs feel better about the world they live in.


I didn't realize that that consideration (past experiences) was overlooked. I thought that was the first thing people jumped to. For instance with Bernie and his reactivity people are always asking us if we rescued him or got him older - thinking he had some sort of negative life experience. Nope we had him from puppyhood! His reactivity is definitely a culmination of his past experiences as he was attacked at a dog park when he was about 4 months. His distrust of other dogs definitely snowballed after that. 

Oliver's aggression definitely has been exacerbated by continual aggressive encounters (all of which he has started). So I do think that has a large part of it. Whether or not this has any medical backing, with treatment we would still need a strong training program and management system to help get him back somewhere close to normal. He's had waay to many reinforcing and learned experiences at this point. Its just weird because there's really nothing notable that could have made Oliver start having these issues. Obviously I can't read dog language and experiences like Oliver can, but he's never been attacked or snapped at, etc. One day he just got up from relaxing with me on the side of our training center and booked it for the dog in the ring. And the rest is history. Growling at dogs, then lunging for them, then actually attacking familiar dog friends. The only dog he's still okay with is Bernie. But they're never left out alone anymore. I dont trust that something wouldn't set him off.

If a holistic vet could find something to help reduce his aggression that would be great so its an avenue I want to go down. It wont fix him regarless but maybe it could help. At this piont I really want to try everything as long as its positive and won't be harmful. I'm also thinking of getting him a collar that releases pheramones for when we go to training class. The trainer brougth it up - something about it releases the pheramones of a lactating mother I think. Maybe that will help his anxiety.

Thanks everyone for your posts and advice!


----------



## coaraujo

Noreaster said:


> Did any of Oliver's littermates have this kind of behavioral change that you are aware of? If there was some kind of vaccinosis problem, I would think that dogs with similar genetics would have similar reactions?
> *I'll have to ask my breeder about this. I do know one of his littermates was returned to her, but I'm not sure of the timing. I do know that Sheldon Mom's pup, Sheldon, has similar anxiety issues. But he's not aggressive in the least.*
> 
> There are so many variables--fear stages, pack order, the genetic propensities that are hardwired, diet, exercise, overall health, vaccines, experiences that could be perceived as traumatic at a key point in development, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I am actually acquainted with the man in that article on rabies miasm, although I have never taken a class with him directly. He runs a very good boarding facility and has several good trainers I've worked with there. That being said, when you run a training facility and end up with a dog with severe behavioral problems in a typically "easy" breed, it could be a pretty rough thing to deal with professionally as well as personally. For these folks, their dogs sort of are their resumes. So I can see why he'd be eager for an outside reason for the problem?
> *That's a very good point. I feel like we're always looking for a "reason" something we can put our finger on.*
> 
> I also think it's interesting that his dog was diagnosed as having an "abnormal thyroid" at the same time, but it was not considered necessary to treat it. Since this was back in 2000, the prevalence of thyroid problems in Goldens probably wasn't as well known as it is now.
> 
> Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any mention of where this dog came from. Shelter, backyard breeder, rescue? So there's another whole set of unknown factors. Since it seems like the initial incidence was that she attacked another dog with a significant size difference, maybe it's also possible trouble had been brewing for some time between them and what would have just been a squabble with two similar size dogs ended up with severe damage instead?


 
Very good points, thank you.


----------



## aussieresc

Does Oliver enjoy going to classes or would he rather just be at home or on a walk with his people?


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> Does Oliver enjoy going to classes or would he rather just be at home or on a walk with his people?


He used to. Not anymore though. He's very anxious and freaked out when we get to a training center (well really anywhere we go he gets like that). He seemed to really enjoy our handling class and the dogs in it. He usually enjoys the classes more because he's working with me than anything. I don't think he ever liked our field class. I think that was one of the negative life experiences that may have contributed to his issues now. He did great with field work at home, but the minute we went to training it stopped and the minute we went to a new environment it stopped and he couldn't perform. 

He doesn't seem to enjoy walks all that much because he's paranoid now. When I was back at school he seemed to really like walks, but I was in the middle of nowhere. Here there are houses everywhere with dogs and that makes him anxious. 

He loves being with his people but he also loves to run. Unfortunately until me and my BF have more money we're stuck in our little house with our little yard. Once day I'll buy him a doggy disneyland like Outwest and he can run aroudn with Bernie free of outside dogs and scary things


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

Is there anywhere you can take him to run without fear of other dogs? I think a daily run is really important in de- stressing.


----------



## coaraujo

Jessie'sGirl said:


> Is there anywhere you can take him to run without fear of other dogs? I think a daily run is really important in de- stressing.


Unfortunately I don't think so. At least not where I live. Land is scare around here. I'll have to ask around to see if anyone I work with has a large fenced in yard.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Do I remember correctly that tomorrow they have their surgery appointments? I went back a few pages but couldn't find it...but I just got back from running and there is little blood in my brain right now!

I'll be checking in to see how you are doing...I know they'll be fine, but I know what's it like to be the owner! Most of my dogs, being rescues or shelter pets, came to me altered, but the one time I did have a puppy spayed it was in the clinic where I worked at the time and I had to sit down in the next room and breathe into a paper bag. 

So I get it


----------



## coaraujo

Noreaster said:


> Do I remember correctly that tomorrow they have their surgery appointments? I went back a few pages but couldn't find it...but I just got back from running and there is little blood in my brain right now!
> 
> I'll be checking in to see how you are doing...I know they'll be fine, but I know what's it like to be the owner! Most of my dogs, being rescues or shelter pets, came to me altered, but the one time I did have a puppy spayed it was in the clinic where I worked at the time and I had to sit down in the next room and breathe into a paper bag.
> 
> So I get it


Yesss its tomorrow. Blahhhhh im all nervous about it. Itll be fine, just need to breathe lol. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhowemt

Good luck tomorrow!


----------



## coaraujo

Here's a video of our mat work tonight. Not sure if you'll be able to see it. I tried to change the privacy settings to public. Let me know if it works!


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10102118073979651


----------



## coaraujo

I was emailed back by Goose's owner (Oliver's grandsire) she recommended getting a rabies titer done. I might email Dr. Dodds about it. She said she doesn't vaccinate adolescent dogs because 1% of the time they have a reaction to it. They follow Dr. Ron Schultz rabies vaccine protocol. 

She also said that she wouldn't neuter him because studies are showing it actually increases fearful and aggressive behavior. AHHHHHH i dont know what to do. I feel like it would be bad to just neuter one of them (we need to neuter Bernie if he's going to do hunt and field).

http://saova.org/articles/Early SN and Behavior.pdf

http://saveourdogs.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Aggression-and-spay-neuter-in-dogs.pdf <- This one has more information at the bottom.


----------



## lhowemt

Tough decision, yes aaaaahhhhhh is right. Neutering is forever, maybe step back for a bit and reassess that decision in a month? I recommend setting a timeframe from my own experience over analyzing decisions. I have found if I give myself a target date sometimes I can let it go for a bit. Then after a period of time I have either more information or gained a different angle in which to analyze it. You have so much going on right now and I think one of the last things you would want to do is something that you second guess later.


----------



## coaraujo

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-faqs

Specifically will neutering my dog make it less aggressive.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

I wrote to Dr. Jean Dodds and Dr. Ronald Schultz about the possibility of an adverse reaction to the rabies vaccine. Dr. Dodds seemed to think that there was a definite possibility it contributed to Olivers issues, she also believes being hypothyroid could contribute (obviously). I get Olivers bloodwork back tomorrow, the vet said all the numbers were normal but I haven't gotten to see that actual numbers yet. Dr. Dodds said to see what rabies vaccine Oliver got and if it was one with Mercury in it. I guess most rabies vaccines contain Mercury and that can cause adverse reactions? She also brought up a change in diet to more cooling foods and avoiding hot foods. I'm hesitant to make a full blown change in diet (to low protein kibble) so just switching the food source might be a first step. Right now Oliver eats quite a bit of "hot" foods. I have no idea if it would help to switch to cooling foods, but since he's having issues with food anyways maybe switching it up isn't the worst idea. I've been reading that duck, rabbit, and cod are cool foods. Along with many fruits. Still waiting to hear from Dr. Schultz

Clearly I can't sleep so I'm just researching away


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Sending you a hug. Sorry you had such a rough night.


----------



## coaraujo

Just dropped the boys off. They were not happy. Oliver was howling his head off. And Bernie was reactive because there was another dog crated in the room barking. Hopefully they settle down  poor guys. So many thoughts are running through my head. Just can't wait for them to be home again. They are both also getting their hip xrays done. Figure its best to do it all in one shot.


----------



## lhowemt

Big hug from Montana too! Hang in there, breathe, get something good to eat. I was terrified when Pearl got spayed! They will be fine, happier than ever to see you and go home. I don't know how you aren't totally exhausted, I hope your cold/flu bug is gone.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

I hope you're home today? Curl up with a cup of tea and a distraction comedy...it will help the time pass.


----------



## Buddy's mom forever

Sending prayers and positive vibes for you and your boys. I hope things turn around for the better for all 3 of you. Hugs.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Are they going to call you when they're finished with the procedure?


----------



## coaraujo

Noreaster said:


> Are they going to call you when they're finished with the procedure?


I believe so, but the vet said no news is good news, so maybe they'll just be calling when its time to pick them up? I wish I was at home where I could distract myself, but I'm at work. Leaving a bit early to pick them up. Hopefully we can keep them calm and sedentary afterwards because Oliver cant have anti-inflammatory meds only tramadol. Have to do everything we can to keep the swelling to a minimum.

ETA thank you everyone for your support and well-wishes


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Tramadol works pretty well with my dogs...it also has an anti-anxiety component and makes them sleepy, so it's a win/win/win in my opinion!

Hang in there. It's going to be fine.


----------



## coaraujo

Just got the call from the vet! Everything went well and I can go pick up the boys in an hour and a half. *huge sigh of relief* So happy it went smoothly. Still nervous to see how this affects them, :crossfing they stay the same or benefit from it. Cannot wait to get them.

ETA: This was my BF's response when I told him the vet called - made me laugh




> can we go get them now?
> did they say anything else
> how many dogs did oliver eat?


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Whew! So glad to hear all is well. And how great is your BF...

It's my belief things are going to be much better going forward! 

Have something fattening to celebrate!


----------



## Max's Dad

Great to hear everything went well. Hoping things improve going forward. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## coaraujo

thanks for your kind words everyone, I will keep you updated on our progress and if there are any changes (hopefully for the better)!

ETA and I'll probably update with pictures of them in their super cool ecollars


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

We lie and tell them the cone means they'll be able to get the Animal Planet channel and the Puppy Bowl in HD.


----------



## lhowemt

Just stopping in to see how the sweet boys are doing. Probably a little loopy and they tramadol should help keep them subdued. Now for the miserable norunningnojumpingnoplaying period... that one is tough! I hope they feel well and stay calm


----------



## coaraujo

Quick update. Bernies petrified of the cone and has been frozen in place for 15 minutes. BF ran out to buy inflatable cones. Bernie tries to jump out of the cone. Both have been whimpering non stop since we left the vet. Boys are separated. Oliver attacked bernie at the vets office when we picked them up. Trying to make them somewhat comfortable. Not easy with two dogs and only one of me. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Frozen bernie

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JanetBionda

Just one option if the cone doesn't work. A large t-shirt with a clip.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

It'll pass. Can you maybe reduce the diameter of the cone Bernie is wearing until BF gets back? That's HUGE. If you can tighten it down a bit it might help--use duct tape to hold it in place if it's not cooperating? Poor thing probably hits everything when he tries to move!


----------



## coaraujo

Tshirts, representing uconn

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Very unhappy bern bern

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Much better with inflatable cone

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

I think oliver is depressed

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

He's also stoned. You're too young to remember the 70s, but let's just say that look is not unfamiliar to me.

You'll all feel better tomorrow! Try to get some sleep.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

Poor boys, it will get better. With the stress level these guys are under, I would try to eliminate or minimize use of the cone if you can.


----------



## Max's Dad

Hope your boys feel better soon. Max did not like the cone--kept banging into things. 


Sent from Petguide.com App


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

If they're like every dog I ever had, they will completely ignore their incisions/sutures/staples until the day that you have decided that they're perfect and are never going to touch them, so you can take the cones off...in our house, that is always the morning of Day Three.

On or about noon of Day Three is when they systematically proceed to remove their sutures/staples or lick their incisions partially open. 

Every time. And I never seem to learn!


----------



## lhowemt

Oh poor babies. Stand firm mom! This shall pass and don't let those sad sacks break your heart, it is just a few days.


----------



## murphy1

None of my male dogs ever bother with the sutures. They were up and about the next day and I never used the cone.


----------



## lhowemt

I had a 6yo boy neutered last winter. We never used the cone either. He left it alone really well and slept in a crate by my bed.


----------



## Buddy's mom forever

Thinking of you guys, hope you have a peaceful night. Please take care of yourself, have some rest and stay positive.


----------



## coaraujo

Still cant get either boy to settle and sleep. Its going to be a long night

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Bernie and the BF have gotten some scattered sleep, but Oliver is not doing well. Ive been up all night with him his pain seems to be getting really bad. He can barely walk, just collapses now

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Put a damp towel in the freezer and will try icing the area to see if that helps at all. I dont know what to do 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## inge

Oh dear, poor boy and poor you! Didn't they give pain medicine to take home? Mine got some pain medicine and some anti vomiting stuff (Tess was over the top with vomiting). Liza of course sailed through it, as she always does...I hope today will be better! And call the vet if he is really uncomfortable. He shouldn't have to be.


----------



## coaraujo

We were sent home with tramadol but it doesn't seem to be helping oliver. Ice towel definitely helped. While it was on was the only time he lay still and calm. Its back in the freezer and hes back to panting and twitching. He probably can have another dose of tramadol but I can't get him to eat anything. A few pieces of lunch meat but that was it. He also somehow managed to take off his tshirt while wearing the inflatable cone during the night?! No idea how the little ninja did that

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Looks like all that mat work is paying off, finally laying down and relaxing with his frozen towel on his wee wee

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Will we finally catch some Z's?!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Buddy's mom forever

I am sorry, it is heartbreaking to read your post and hope it gets better for Oliver today. Are you staying home with them today? Do you have some arnica to try, it is "dog's" aspirin our old vet used to say.


----------



## coaraujo

I am staying home today. Is arnica a nsaid? Oliver cant handle those kinda of drugs unfortunately. They give him liquid diarrhea

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Buddy's mom forever

It is herbal, homeopathic remedy, check the attached link:
http://www.woodlandherbs.co.uk/acatalog/homeopathy_remedy.html


----------



## Buddy's mom forever

You can buy Arnica in Walmart, those are pellets, just put under his tongue. My Buddy was having them after his knee surgery.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

I'm sorry you had such a rough night!

Before you give him anything else, you might want to check with your vet first?


----------



## aussieresc

Oliver's severe reaction to the neuter as well as inability to take nsaids really makes me wonder about a chemical imbalance with him. I've been involved with rescue for over 15 years and the neutering of adult dogs is very common. I don't remember ever hearing one of the foster homes telling me a dog couldn't settle after neuter. Most usually crash that night. I would urge you to ask his breeder about all the dogs in his lineage and whether any have drug sensitivities. If you haven't already ask about the other dogs in his litter. She may or may not have contact with all of them. I think this reaction adds another piece to the puzzle.


----------



## lhowemt

Arnica is not an nsaid. Good for you icing him. I wish I had mentioned it. When we got pearl spayed they had us ice her 3-4 times a day for 3 days and then switch to warm heat. The heat was for helping the wound. Poor baby. I was assumed to be allergic to Nsaids for years and nothing compares to them except ice when it comes to swelling. In his case I would ice up to every hour for 10 minutes today if you can. You might ask the vet about increasing his tramadol dosage if even for a day to help him get knocked out and rest which is critical for healing. Big smooch for the boys!


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

I was also thinking that his reaction to this is a clue in this puzzle. Jess barely was aware of his incision post neuter, had major surgery( bowel obstruction with perforation) and seemed to bounce right back from all of it. The only thing that really bothered him was the area they shaved for the IV. 
He will require some form of pain control though. Hope you can find something that he can take.


----------



## coaraujo

I called the vet this morning about Oliver not sleeping and just not handling the neuter well. The vet tech answered the phone and said that he's probably not sleeping because of the anesthesia. But yesterday when we left the vet, the actual vet said the anesthesia would cause them to crash when we got home?? Regardless he basically said I shouldn't be worried about Oliver's behavior. I dont know :/. The vets going to be calling me at some point with the radiology report from the boys hip xrays. I'll ask him about Oliver.


----------



## Heart O'Gold

I just wanted to send some healing prayers and wishes to Bernie and Oliver. I hope they heal quickly.


----------



## coaraujo

Another thing thats weird is he wont go to the bathroom today. I'm sure he has to pee. Its been like 12 hours

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Heart O'Gold

maybe the swelling is making it harder for him to pee. I am so sorry he is suffering so much.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

I was going to say the same thing, swelling.
I would call the vet if they don't already know about the pee issue. They may want to cath him if he doesn't go soon. Poor Oliver, everything seems so hard for him.


----------



## coaraujo

Oliver finally peed! Of course I wasnt expecting it so I didn't roll up his shirt... one shirt down. As for his appetite he doesn't seem to want to eat whole food. He drank the liquid from the can food but refused the actual chunks. Is it okay to give him some sort of broth? Is there a soup for dogs?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## AmberSunrise

my Rowdy had an 'extreme reaction' to being neutered; no surgery is without risks (pet peeve to hear people say neuter and spay are routine and without risks); crap happens and need attention. I did end up taking 3 days off of work to ice my dog - 20 min on/20 min off working towards 20 min per hour and working down and he had strong pain killers prescribed.

I would bring him to the vet - if your vet cannot fit him in, go to an eVet - he should be eating and be more comfortable - stronger pain meds may be needed or there may be an issue that should be addressed.


----------



## TheZ's

Sorry to hear how difficult it's been for Oliver. I would definitely talk sooner to the vet (not a vet tech) and if they can't help the eVet is an option. We've used the one on West Cedar St. in Norwalk (used to be independent, now is VCA) and we've always been happy with how they've helped us. You can call ahead to tell them your problem or just take Oliver there.

You can give chicken broth and might try a little plain rice in it but I'd really try to get a vets advice.


----------



## lhowemt

I am glad glad he peed! My heart skipped about 10 beats when I saw that. I agree with others if he isn't markedly better later today bring him into the vet. You might try a low or no sodium broth for sure. Or boil up rice and chicken and put in some cottage cheese. I find keeping each item separate like on a human plate works well as they can choose what they want. Also cooked liver is hard to turn down (for dogs). Hang in there!


----------



## lhowemt

Another thought is to puree that dog food he drank the liquid from with extra water.


----------



## coaraujo

He seems to be doing slightly better. I know if he just gave in and slept some itd help a ton. I tried pureeing the dog food and got him to drink a very small amount. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

I got Oliver to eat! He ate half a chicken leg quarter. To get him to eat I waved it around like it was alive. He wanted to pounce on it and ate it right up. Then he asked to go outside and were doing potty right now #1 & 2

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

I think were over the hump! Here he is after a good roll enjoying some good grass sniffing

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhowemt

Yay for dead animated chicken parts and poops and pees too.


----------



## coaraujo

Finally at 2:19 p.m. we have fallen asleep. Largely due to icing the wee wee and mom accompanying him on the kitchen floor. Every time he closed his eyes and I went to leave hed get up. So I gave up and set up camp. Nap time for all!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

This is going to sound really dumb but how do you tell the difference between a seizure and a dog just twitching in its sleep. Oliver came and lied down next to me and he closed his eyes. Within 30 seconds he started twitching and his whole body was convulsing then his legs were just twitching then it stopped and he woke up very soon after and moved to a new spot?! 

Eta ive never seen them dream in their sleep like that especially not after falling asleep so quickly

Eta after doing research definitely sounds like just a dream. just a strange occurrence i guess.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## aussieresc

Sounds like he was dreaming to me. Dogs are usually very dazed or hyper after seizures. Unfortunately learned this the hard way, our last Golden had them.


----------



## TheZ's

When my dogs have been dreaming often their legs move as if they're trying to run but something is holding them back. Sometimes they'll bark or whimper but again in sort of a muffled way. If they seem disturbed, I'll say something to rouse them a bit and they'll often change position and go back into a sound sleep. Could be what it was with Oliver.


----------



## coaraujo

I think that maybe the medicine made his twitching worse and more convulsive. Thank you for your input and aussieresc I'm sorry you and your pup had to deal with seizures . 

Just got a call from the vet, I'm okay to up Oliver's pain medicine dose. I can do two to three pills three times a day. I just gave him one more and I think I'll give him two before bed. We got the xray results in too. Oliver has the beginning stages of arthritis in his hips (I think in just one of them). His elbows were perfect. His knees were swollen. My vet is thinking that this has to do with the Lyme. We're about due for our next C6 test so if those numbers are elevated that could explain the swelling. I wonder if any of these issues are making Oliver less tolerant?

Bernie didn't have any arthritis but his hip ball doesn't fit into the socket all that neatly. He doesn't have displaysia. From what I understood I think that maybe his hips would be graded a fair? I'll have to wait until I get the formal report because it was a lot of information to process and digest at once. His knees and elbows were perfect.


----------



## coaraujo

Here are a picture of Bernie's hips. Maybe the vet said he was mildly dysplastic. They definitely look MD to me. Not terrible, but definitely not a passing hip.


----------



## coaraujo

Here are Oliver's hips. I guess the space inbetween the ball and socket is where the arthritis is forming. My vet said he couldn't see it when he looked at them, but thats why we send them out to a radiologist for review. He also said that when comparing to his 8 month old xrays the arthritis wasn't there.


----------



## AmberSunrise

Poor Oliver!! you may have your answer for the aggression

Rabies shot, combined with lyme induced swollen knees and arthritis in at least one hip combined with hypothyroidism as well (do I have that straight?) - I think I might be cranky with all that going on. But it sounds like it can be managed now that you know.

I hope you can find an anti-inflammatory he can tolerate - Adaquan (sp?) might be an option too


----------



## Brave

Caught up on the latest news...

Yay surgery went well!!
Oh no!!! For restless puppies
Yay!!!! Sleep!

All my fosters after being altered just wanted to be left alone and sleep. 
Bear was neutered as a puppy and never needed cone or anything. But after his TPLOs (can you believe tomorrow marks a year???!) he wore the cone of "healing" 24/7.

I remember the first day home, he had a muscle spasm in his bladder control area and he peed all over himself and the bed... And then we waited with bated breath for his first poop post-op (took him five days!!!!!). 

I remember he didn't want to settle, so I carefully pulled him on to our air mattress and spent the next three days curled around him and catering to his every need while we binge watched Magnum PI. 

Anyways back OT, depending on the sedation, some dogs lost appetite. Bear went Dr. Jekyll on me after he was sedated for his joint tap. He was clingy and aggressive, having hallucinations to boot. And he turns up food after sedation for a couple days. So we boil chicken breasts and use the broth to soak instant rice and I hand feed him it while I whisper sweet nothings in his ear. Anything he likes I try to get him to eat. 

Don't be afraid to call the vet whenever you need to. I called the vet easily six times the first night home and a couple days later with concerns over his swelling. I sent photos via email to the doctor too. 

Hugs!!!! This too shall pass.


----------



## Karen519

*Oliver*



coaraujo said:


> I think that maybe the medicine made his twitching worse and more convulsive. Thank you for your input and aussieresc I'm sorry you and your pup had to deal with seizures .
> 
> Just got a call from the vet, I'm okay to up Oliver's pain medicine dose. I can do two to three pills three times a day. I just gave him one more and I think I'll give him two before bed. We got the xray results in too. Oliver has the beginning stages of arthritis in his hips (I think in just one of them). His elbows were perfect. His knees were swollen. My vet is thinking that this has to do with the Lyme. We're about due for our next C6 test so if those numbers are elevated that could explain the swelling. I wonder if any of these issues are making Oliver less tolerant?
> 
> Bernie didn't have any arthritis but his hip ball doesn't fit into the socket all that neatly. He doesn't have displaysia. From what I understood I think that maybe his hips would be graded a fair? I'll have to wait until I get the formal report because it was a lot of information to process and digest at once. His knees and elbows were perfect.


Praying for both Bernie and Oliver. I would be cranky too if I were Oliver. Is he peeing o.k.?


----------



## coaraujo

Thank you for sharing your experience (5 days for a poop?! Id have been a wreck you are strong), its comforting - especially that bear had a bit of dr. Jeckly in him too like Oliver (and that it went away!!!). I cannot wait for this to pass! Im sure Oliver feels the same way 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Karen519 said:


> Praying for both Bernie and Oliver. I would be cranky too if I were Oliver. Is he peeing o.k.?


He is now, this morning he wouldnt go but we have had a successful afternoon pee and poo!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhowemt

Yay more meds for the sweet boy! 

I would get confirmation that the arthritis looks like osteoarthritis and not rheumatoid arthritis. I have no idea how it affects dogs but in people it sucks. RA is a very different disease and is a systemic autoimmune malfunction. I doubt it is likely... If he has a lot of pain from joint inflammation prednisone might help? But it is a nasty drug long term and in people can be very mood altering causing agitation and anxiety. But I have never heard of that in dogs. That is along the lines of RA too. 

Oh yeah, have you been drinking enough water today and eaten any vegetables? Hugs!


----------



## coaraujo

Im wondering if the arthritis was caused by the Lyme disease. On the radiologist report it said either the beginning of dysplasia or autoimmune arthritis which could be possibly checked for by running a test checking for TBD. Same for the knee swelling. Its interesting because at 8 months when the limping started and he had first contracted Lyme but we dudnt know his hips were perfect. It went untreated bc it came back false neg. Now his joints are having issues and we can't seem to successfully treat the Lyme. I wonder if a holistic vet would have any ideas for anti inflammatories. Prednisone is nasty. Wgen bernie was on it he attacked oliver multiple times. Over minuscule things like a carrot and an ice cube. He was wetting himself and just not himself. That was a bad week. 

I was actually just thinking about how I need to drink more water! You read my mind. My diet stunk today mostly consisted of pasta and ice cream but tomorrow is a new day lol hopefully we will all sleep and can start fresh tomorrow

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhowemt

Autoimmunenarthritis is rheumatoid I believe, at least it is for humans. It shares MANY symptoms of lyme and there are misdiagnoses each direction. There are a lot of meds that work very well for RA besides prednisone, so there might be options for dogs too. I sure hope it is not that but pinning it down, whatever it is, hopefully will be a start. But I don't want to encourage you to chase even more things......

I quit my "real" job nearly 5 years ago. One of those new career books encouraged drinking a lot of water. It seemed so odd but it was right! I didn't have my old routine anymore and I wasn't drinking. Funny how little things can throw us off.


----------



## lhowemt

Word of caution on blood tests for autoimmune arthritis. For humans they are not perfectly correlated. Even if you get a negative stay with the symptoms. Treat the patient (symptoms) not the lab work, is what I successfully say to my Dr. But again, I know nothing about it in dogs.


----------



## lhowemt

There is little understanding as to what causes autoimmune arthritis (RA) in humans, often people can trace back to some stressors.

I strongly encourage you not to panic and go down any road of research on your own with this. The web will just scare you and there are quite a few different autoimmune diseases and this can be overwhelming. Argh, I wish I hadn't said anything! I am sorry! I have no reason to correlate behavior like Oliver's to this. I think you would see pain manifestations if it were an issue.


----------



## TheZ's

I wouldn't be surprised if Lymes (or some other TBD) is at the root of most of Olivers problems. (I'm afraid I tend to suspect Lymes very frequently.) It certainly can cause arthritis like symptoms in dogs and humans and the large joints, particularly the knee, are places where it often strikes in humans. I think in dogs it most frequently affects the rear legs. As to where best to get treatment, I really don't know. I think there are people working on Lymes at the vet schools, Cornell, Penn and Tufts(?) There might be someone at the Cornell veterinary referral hospital in Stamford that you could consult. Perhaps the vet you're using could refer you to someone there.


----------



## Brave

coaraujo said:


> Thank you for sharing your experience (5 days for a poop?! Id have been a wreck you are strong), its comforting - especially that bear had a bit of dr. Jeckly in him too like Oliver (and that it went away!!!). I cannot wait for this to pass! Im sure Oliver feels the same way
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



It was the happiest poop of my life. OMG. I think I even facebooked it. Lol. 

Just keep hanging in there.


----------



## lhowemt

God point TheZ's as arthritis usually manifests itself in smaller joints.


----------



## coaraujo

Just got home from work. BF WFH for the morning and i'm WFH for the afternoon. Poor thing had an awful morning. Said the dogs were driving him crazy. barking non stop at him and each other, crying, not settling going crazy. He said he tried icing Oliver but thinks it was hurting him and he couldn't really do it. Basically he was very happy when I came in to relieve him. Poor guy. Well I'm home and I iced Oliver just fine. Oliver is settling and is about asleep already. Bernie is upset that I'm not on his side of the baby gate so I gave him a chew bone and a stuffed kong and that is keeping him occupied and happy. I guess a mother knows . Poor BF, he will get the hang of it one day. <3


----------



## sdhgolden

Mother knows best!  Good for your BF for being there to help! You really are such an amazing caring person. Bernie and Oliver scored big time with an owner like you!


----------



## TheZ's

How are Oliver and Bernie today? Hoping things are a little calmer today.


----------



## coaraujo

The boys are feeling much better today! We slept all the way through the night, hooray! Oliver played some fetch this morning he was in such good spirits. He's still being a finicky eater but we were able to get him to eat a good amount for breakfast. Bernie is fed up with confinement. He houdinied out of his cone yesterday and rolled around the yard in joy. 

The only negative is Oliver still hates Bernie. This morning he went off on him through the baby gate. Hopefully this passes soon.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## aussieresc

Be careful with playing fetch. When Brady was neutered he wasn't allowed any activity for a full week.


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> Be careful with playing fetch. When Brady was neutered he wasn't allowed any activity for a full week.


When I say fetch it was him walking across the kitchen with excitement picking up the toy and bringing it back ( and unfortunately our kitchen is very small) so it was very lame fetch 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Just wanted to update really quick! Oliver is eating full meals again! arty:. The strange thing is the way it is happening and I was wondering if anyone had any insight. He sits there and ignores his food until Bernie finishes eating and walks away from his bowl, then he'll get up and eat his food . Any idea why he does this? He also resource guards toys and food (which is why they're fed separately on opposite sides of baby gates and high value items aren't given together) so I wouldn't think this would be a respect thing?


----------



## OutWest

coaraujo said:


> Just wanted to update really quick! Oliver is eating full meals again! arty:. The strange thing is the way it is happening and I was wondering if anyone had any insight. He sits there and ignores his food until Bernie finishes eating and walks away from his bowl, then he'll get up and eat his food . Any idea why he does this? He also resource guards toys and food (which is why they're fed separately on opposite sides of baby gates and high value items aren't given together) so I wouldn't think this would be a respect thing?


No clue about this...but I'm glad he's eating!


----------



## coaraujo

A lot of my posts lately have been about the neutering - since its kind of taken over our lives :bowl:. But today - unfortunately - I got to see a bout of reactivity from Oliver so I thought I'd share with you all. I had Oliver gated on the back porch and Bernie in the yard. Our neighbors directly behind us have a little yappy dog. I've never actually seen it because we have a 6 foot fence I've only heard it, hence my nick name . I guess it had come outside because Bernie ran over to the fence to investigate all curious. The neighbor dog started yapping. Oliver went nuts. Making these very strange frustrated cries and barks. He couldn't get down to the yard because he was gated on the porch. Which I'm thankful for, because I'm kind of afraid he would have redirected his anxiety/reactivity onto Bernie in the heat of the moment. But I feel like this is kind of what happened with my parent's dog. He heard the dog making noises, felt these intense frustrated emotions and needed to get rid of whatever was making him feel that way. He wasn't responsive to me in the least for about 45-60 seconds. Then I was able to get him to sit, then settle. (The dog wasn't yapping anymore - I don't know how long it would have taken if the dog was still making noise). I wonder why he feels these emotions when he hears little dogs squealing, etc? Its unfortunate that he had this bout of reactivity, but it made very clear what one of his triggers is.


----------



## sdhgolden

Maybe the fact that he couldn't see the dog but could hear that it was close was making him nervous and anxious. I wonder if he could see the dog like if the fence was see through if that would've made a difference since he would then know where it is and what was making that noise. I think with time once he gets more comfortable with other dogs that kind of reaction would subside. But it's hard to say. How has he reacted in the past to the little yappy dog?

ETA: I'm glad he's eating! I also have no clue why he waits.


----------



## aussieresc

This sounds like predatory behavior. High pitched squeals often bring it out.

Predatory Behavior in Dogs | ASPCA


----------



## tine434

aussieresc said:


> This sounds like predatory behavior. High pitched squeals often bring it out.
> 
> Predatory Behavior in Dogs | ASPCA


We had a whippet mix at our shelter who did not realize small dogs weren't prey... She would get very predatory around them.


----------



## coaraujo

Any idea why his view of little dogs would change? He never viewed them as prey before. He's been around them a million times (while theyve made squeally noises) and never went off. Now, like with my parents dog, he seems to want to "get" them. Could it have been having an altercation with a skunk? Maybe now he relates all small dogs to being sprayed in the face?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## tine434

With your boy it may be unrelated, but I do know some dogs do react like little dogs are prey. For your case, I'm not sure. It all is so complex to my mind


----------



## aussieresc

Bear in mind he is now an adult and there are often changes as dogs mature. 

As much as it adds to the picture to know why a dog has changed the most important thing to deal with is who he is now. You can't change his past and only have control over his present and future. The utmost question is what is going to make Oliver a safe dog who can live a happy life.


----------



## coaraujo

aussieresc said:


> Bear in mind he is now an adult and there are often changes as dogs mature.
> 
> As much as it adds to the picture to know why a dog has changed the most important thing to deal with is who he is now. You can't change his past and only have control over his present and future. The utmost question is what is going to make Oliver a safe dog who can live a happy life.


Thanks, this is a good point. Something I should probably write on a piece of paper and tape to the mirror for a while. Its not easy but its something I need to keep reminding myself of.


----------



## lhowemt

coaraujo said:


> Just wanted to update really quick! Oliver is eating full meals again! arty:. The strange thing is the way it is happening and I was wondering if anyone had any insight. He sits there and ignores his food until Bernie finishes eating and walks away from his bowl, then he'll get up and eat his food . Any idea why he does this? He also resource guards toys and food (which is why they're fed separately on opposite sides of baby gates and high value items aren't given together) so I wouldn't think this would be a respect thing?


Back from a long weekend and I am glad to hear they are recovering well. This sounds like some serious hierachy going on. Maybe they key is the dynamic between these two guys. Let me tell a (another) story. Hazel was 1.5 years older than Lila. She was the outgoing one and Lila was the little buddy. Periodically Lila would BLOW up at Hazel and for a long time we thought Lila was the instigator. After many years we finally realized that it was the other way around and Hazel was just so smooth at it we couldn't tell (being stupid humans). They would be playing and Lila would "ask" for some space. Hazel would not quit and kept going back for more. This was not aggressive, but she certainly was not respecting Lila, or Lila was unsuccessful at asserting herself. At least without going gangbusters. I started calling lila the "unintentional beta" dog because she was fine in that role until Hazel oh so dog-secretly pushed her over a threshold. 

With what you mentioned about the neighbor dog, maybe Bernie is pushing his buttons or repressing him in a way you can't see, and it is coming out elsewhere?

I would at a minimum feed them in completely separate spaces, rooms with doors shut so they are completely safe to eat on their own.


----------



## lhowemt

Checking in on the boys today. How are they doing?


----------



## lhowemt

Still wondering and hoping all is going well


----------



## coaraujo

Thanks for checking in ! Life is finally back to normal post-neuter arty:arty:arty2:. We reintroduced Oliver and Bernie last week and made sure to keep them very calm and not sniff any sensitive areas. They were edgy at first but after 24 hours we could stop holding our breath and relax. Before that we had our eyes on them at all times otherwise they were separated. Everything is all healed up and they've been romping and wrestling like little energizer bunnies. Oliver turned 2 yesterday, wooo! 

We had our first shy and fearful dog class this past weekend. We brought out mat and first thing went to a far corner and laid it out. Oliver laid down right away on it. :banana:. For the first 45 minutes of class all the dogs just laid down and the trainer did a lot of talking while we clicked and treated. Oliver didn't react at all to the other dogs while entering class (by react, I mean verbally). He was anxious at first, but settled on his mat and was able to take treats immediately. I was able to refocus him when other dogs barked or the trainer did things with her dog. However once it got to the point where other dogs were moving around he couldn't handle it anymore. One dog in class couldn't really lay for that long of a period of time so the owner was tossing a tennis ball for the dog. That made Oliver growl. The four of us were all very spread out, this dog was farthest from us. Thats the one time Oliver actually made a verbal reaction. Once the other dogs were moving around doing training exercises Oliver wouldn't take treats anymore and was anxious. Wasn't growling, but was no longer relaxed and visibly stressed. I was able to get him to settle down by working with him. We did self control exercises where we put down a bowl of food in front of the dog, wait for them to look at us, and then release them to the bowl. All without giving them a command since the point is them choosing (Its yer choice kind of work). Oliver loves that kind of stuff because we do it a lot at home. Once we started doing this he was having a ball and completely forgot about the other dogs and started taking treats and was focused on me. Which is good, but idk. I don't think thats what I want. Because part of my issue was I'd be working with Oliver and he'd be doing great with me and then all of a sudden BOOM he's on the other end of the leash going after the other dog, clearly depleted his self-control reserve and couldn't ignore the other dog anymore. I think self-control exercises are good and this is a good game for him to play. I guess I mean I think that I need to change how Oliver feels about dogs moving about, not distract him so he feels better? Does that make sense, do you think thats right?


Afterwards we stopped at Petco to load up on treats because, well, we treat a lot in this class. It was such a humid hot day I didn't feel comfortable leaving Oliver in the car, so I muzzled him up and took him in with me. He did really well. I think doing the "doggy yoga" helped him feel better at Petco. There were four other dogs there of course :doh: It was maybe 15 minutes after it opened so I figured the store would be empty. But either way, we walked straight to the treat aisle with out muzzle on and he wore it like a champ. I then gave him treats pretty consistently while we waited to check out and we picked out a toy. We had to wait a bit because the cashier was doing some training with a customer's dog. Oliver just sat with me and watched. We were able to walk by the other dogs without so much as a glance. This was the first time he's ever worn his muzzle. I was really proud of him, for wearing his muzzle so well and for the fact that he seemed to be relatively happy in Petco, not anxious. He did not like walking by the ferrets though, they scared him - go figure. I was surprised how welcoming people were with him wearing his muzzle. I thought they would be scared of him or like kick us out of Petco. But the employees were all very nice and wanted to pet him and thought he was very cute . I guess a GR in a baby blue muzzle isn't the MOST intimidating thing in the world. The thing I noticed most about that experience though, was how I felt walking Oliver with the muzzle. I felt so much more calm. I think it will help us a lot in our training.

Life is soooo busy right now, will update again soon!


----------



## Buddy's mom forever

Happy 2nd Birthday to sweet Oliver, it will get better for you and your boy!


----------



## Charliethree

Good to hear the boys are back to normal and wonderful that you have gotten Oliver into fear classes. Though your end goal is to have Oliver feel safe in the presence of other dogs regardless what they are doing, it is essential to start at 'square one' - changing emotions is a slow process, resist the urge to get ahead of yourself, and risking a set back. First class is focused on getting the dogs feeling comfortable and safe in that situation, just being in the same room with other dogs is stressful for them. It sounds like Oliver did extremely well! 
Imagine you are terrified of spiders, the mere sight of one makes your heart race and you want to run for your life. You are sitting in your favorite chair and notice there is a spider on the far wall across the room, you tense up/worry but you are not overwhelmed. You keep an eye on the spider and continue what you are doing, perhaps eating your favorite dessert. The spider starts moving, what do you think your reaction is going to be? Your anxiety level will instantly rise, you will stop eating, your mind in a 'panic' 'Is it coming for me?' Should I run or chase it away. The spider stops moving, you are still cautious, but it is now not as much of a threat, it is okay for now, you go back to what you are doing. Over the next few weeks you see that spider on the wall, but realize nothing 'bad' happened and you begin to accept it just 'being there', it is 'okay' as long as it doesn't move. You have become desensitized to it just being there, staying still. Now, one day the spider is moving, it is now perceived as a threat. Over time you learn to accept that even if the spider is moving, it is not a threat, as long as it stays 'over there', then, with practice and positive associations with the spider, only good things happen, paired with your favorite treats, you can learn that it is still okay, even if it gets closer to you. 
It takes time, practice, lots of repetition, lots of rewarding (positive associations with what they fear) to help to get them move forward, and they progress at their own pace. As much as we wish we could 'just fix it', there is no 'quick fix', they need our time, our patience, our commitment to working with them. They also need us to be extra careful, while working through the desensitization/counter conditioning program, about not putting them into situations where they may encounter their trigger and cause them to go over threshold - random 'reinforcement' is a powerful thing. 'Set backs' happen, but it is our job to minimize the risk.
Be cautious, and extra careful, when using the muzzle, that your extra confidence that he is 'safe', doesn't lead you to putting him into situations, you would not put him in, if he did not have it on. The time will come for that, but it is a long ways down the road, you will get there, but the more slowly you move now, the better chance of success later on.


----------



## lhowemt

Happy birthday Oliver and happy post healing to them both  I love to hear about them playing!


----------



## inge

Just keep on going! Hugs!!! And love from Liza...


----------



## coaraujo

So we've had three weeks of Shy and Fearful dog class. Its been very busy over here so I haven't had any time to update! Oliver is doing fantastic in class. The trainers somewhat blown away I think, especially considering his first reaction when we showed up before classes started just to get a gauge if this was a good class for Oliver. He's really been able to settle on his mat every class and take treats. We've been able to do some LAT work while on the mat. The mat really has been our savings grace in the class. We're learning a lot of great techniques that as we strengthen them will help us down the road. Our second week we started working on teaching our dogs that a tight leash means something positive instead of being a negative predictor. It was really interesting to see because the minute I started tightening up on the leash, even though Oliver had been taking treats and calm immediately prior, he stopped eating and started becoming stressed. He picked up pretty quickly that a little tug equalled treats and he was relaxed and happy again, but it was interesting to see the conditioned response to a tight leash. Something else we introduced the dogs to was "find it" where you just toss a treat on the ground below them and tell them to find it. Its an attention breaker so if they see a trigger they'll be so used to "find it" that when you say it they'll immediately drop their head to pick up a treat. This is something we'd really have to do often because I know if Oliver locked in on a dog he wouldn't try to sniff out a treat on the ground. On a comical note, we bring a bumper to class and we play "find it" at home with a bumper - a game that Oliver loves. So we'd be walking around class doing find it and Oliver'd run back to the back pack and grab the bumper out of the backpack all proud "look mom I found it!" such a smartie. 

I especially liked this weekend's class because I thought it was very telling. There was only one other dog in class so we had a lot of space. We tried an exercise where we walk backwards and the dogs walk directly in front of us and you go one step at a time and every time you stop the dog sits, so its almost like doing mini fronts. My trainer also had Oliver set up in a different area of the room since there were less people there. He settled in great on his mat, but he also had full view of the other dog in class. When we tried doing the exercise he just couldnt function. He did one avoidance behavior after another. Sniffed the ground, looked away and wouldn't give me eye contact, stopped and scratched. I tried to reset him but he just couldnt. And at once point he locked in on the other dog and was as stiff as a board. I thought he was going to growl. I just took him straight back to him mat and we lied back down and did our "doggy yoga" as I call it. We relaxed and got treated for laying down and being calm. Once the other dog was lying down on its mat we tried doing the exercise (farther away this time) Oliver did it just fine. So it looks like 1. we were too close and 2. another dog moving is too much, but another dog being still might be okay. Another thing we noticed is that Oliver is checking back in with me and my BF when he gets anxious (more with people than with dogs though). The trainer will walk close to Oliver and toss treats to him which he'll excitedly go get, but then realize "omg i'm close to this scary new person" and he'll scurry back to me or my BF and be anxious and nervous kind of like "woah I can't believe I just did that". So its good that he checks in and looks back to us. Something that we're going to work on with people is finding people Oliver is somewhat comfortable with, have him so go say hi (do a touch), and then come back to us for a treat. Our trainer said its good for him to come back to us for a treat. Our trainer pointed out its very clear that with Oliver there's a very fine line between where he's okay and a happy go lucky golden retriever and not okay and going to have an outburst. He gives a lot of signs so we have to be aware and observant, but its amazing how fine that line is. We could have very easily had an outburst in class if we hadn't gone back to our mat at that exact second. 

For next steps on getting him used to other dogs she said it'll be good to find a bomb proof dog and do some parallel walks with that dog, maybe on opposite sides of the street. A dog who won't care if he has an episode, etc. He needs to learn what normal doggy social behavior is. Dogs walking side by side passing on the street, etc. We can't really dog that with Bernie (we can start with that probably) but he needs to learn these dogs out in the world are no big deal. Oliver needs his own therapy dog.

Hope everyone is doing well!


----------



## tine434

Too bad we aren't closer lol. Rem totally ignored a black lab who was going nuts at the beach and then a yellow lab tried to run down Rem and hubby on a walk... Not in a fun way, in a barking snarling way... Rem kept on running right by the hubby.

He has barked at 2 dogs before, but for some reason if there is an owner involved with the other dog he is totally relaxed no matter what (or excited if he wants to play but usually he knows the different times for each)

I'm so glad classes are going so well!!


----------



## TheZ's

Glad to hear Oliver's making some progress. Wish I could offer Gracie as a neutral dog. She seems to be quite good with a variety of dogs but is only just a year old and I need to develop a little more confidence that she can handle the unexpected. Maybe your trainer can suggest a dog or at least some idea of likely most suitable, e.g. older, male or female, neutered, breed etc. Is this trainer the one at PCOTC?


----------



## coaraujo

TheZ's said:


> Glad to hear Oliver's making some progress. Wish I could offer Gracie as a neutral dog. She seems to be quite good with a variety of dogs but is only just a year old and I need to develop a little more confidence that she can handle the unexpected. Maybe your trainer can suggest a dog or at least some idea of likely most suitable, e.g. older, male or female, neutered, breed etc. Is this trainer the one at PCOTC?


Yes this is the trainer at pcotc. I really like her she seems really good at picking up each individual dogs signs of stress and handles them all uniquely. Thanks for thinking of Oliver with Gracie but I agree that we dont want to risk giving her a negative experience that could shape her behavior since shes so young. I was thing of asking Dawn if maybe we could try a walk with Dee Dee since Oliver already knows her and Dee Dees sweeter than pie. 

Our trainer recommended trying out a thundershirt too but also reminded us not to only put it on in times of stress. Heres Oliver borrowing his big bros shirt. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## boomers_dawn

Glad Oliver's doing better.

I think Dee Dee would love to go on a walk with Oliver.
She is sweet as pie, but don't forget, she's also hyper, jumps around, and does jerky movements like a squirrel. She can be a little skittish too.

Maybe they can both wear thundershirts and helmets on their date :

If your trainer thinks it would be ok, let us know, we would both like to help.


----------



## tippykayak

I've been keeping up with things, and I just wanted to say that I think the self-control games and the classical conditioning stuff is definitely the way to come at this. Glad you're making progress!


----------



## coaraujo

Thanks for agreeing to a possible date Dawn . I will talk to my trainer this weekend about what she thinks. I forgot about how bouncy Dee Dee is, so full of life . I feel like sometimes that is better for Oliver because at least then he at least can get an idea of what is going on with the other dog. Does that make sense? He seems to get more nervous about quiet serious dogs. But happy go lucky dogs he's just regular nervous. I just know in the past he was begging Dee Dee for a date so I'm hoping if he saw her across the street he wouldn't be as nervous as he would a complete strange dog. 

Ahhh gotta go.. the boys are playing keep away with my work shoe!


----------



## lhowemt

Great news! Thanks for letting us know. That must be a relief to be moving forward so well. Here is hoping he continues to progress!


----------



## JanetBionda

I know you mentioned having their thyroid tested by Dr Dodds. Did you do that? Did you have a full panel done? Do you have the results of their thyroid tests? What dosage of Soloxine are they on? Are you making sure to give their thyroid meds 1 hour before or 3 hours after any food or treats? What was the results of their thyroid test... T4, free t4, t3, free t3, TSH and tgaa? Don't underestimate how a thyroid problem can affect behaviour such as aggression. If either or both are on the wrong dosage it can be ineffective.


----------



## coaraujo

JanetBionda said:


> I know you mentioned having their thyroid tested by Dr Dodds. Did you do that? Did you have a full panel done? Do you have the results of their thyroid tests? What dosage of Soloxine are they on? Are you making sure to give their thyroid meds 1 hour before or 3 hours after any food or treats? What was the results of their thyroid test... T4, free t4, t3, free t3, TSH and tgaa? Don't underestimate how a thyroid problem can affect behaviour such as aggression. If either or both are on the wrong dosage it can be ineffective.


Hello! We did get both of them tested with a full thryoid panel reviewed at hemopet. Both dogs came back hypothyroid. Here are Oliver's original numbers:







His retest numbers








Bernie's original numbers:







His retest 








Oliver's retest numbers were much better and considered normal by Dr. Dodds so we are keeping his dose at .4 twice a day. 

Bernie's numbers were still considered too low so we switched him from .45 twice a day to .6 twice a day. We are retesting his numbers next week to see how he's doing on the new dose.

On a side note we haven't seen any change in Oliver's behavior - good or bad - with treating his thryoid. Bernie has seemed to improve, happier and less anxious about life in general.


----------



## coaraujo

Just wanted to post another quick update. We had out last shy and fearful dog class last weekend. Oliver really enjoyed this class. We played with different interactive toys during class and confidence obstacles (like walking through ladders). Doing confidence building training is really important for anxious and fearful dogs. One thing we did with Oliver was have him walk under an agility jump because it simulates someones hand being overhead. He didn't care at all though. He does shy away from strangers reaching out, but this obstacle didn't bother him. While playing with the toys he seemed to completely forget about the other dogs in the room. He was SO happy . My trainer said we should definitely use toys to our advantage and we should teach him the rules of tug and really get a good foundation of impulse control down with him because thats very important with dogs who "blow up". I get nervous to use toys with Oliver because I get nervous to get him over threshold, but I think playing self-control games with him where we practice getting excited while being in control of ourselves will be good for him. 


Now our trainer thinks we should join a general obedience class where the instructor knows our situation and just work on the side and work on Oliver accepting being around the other dogs. Do similar things to what we were doing in this class, just around the different dogs. Also try to find a dog to go on walks around. So thats our next step.

We were doing really well managing everything to keep any outbursts from having because thats so SO important in Oliver's progress. Unfortunately we had another reactivity blow-up last night. The boys had found a winter glove somewhere in the house and got in a fight over it. Oliver gets possessive over these kind of items so they're not allowed, but unfortunately we completely didn't see them steal this one :no:. We were watching TV so I'm not exactly sure how it happened, but knowing how these things go Bernie probably tried to take the glove from Oliver so Oliver attacked him. We separated the dogs by picking up their back legs and pulling them apart. We have to separate them into different rooms because Oliver doesn't usually stop wanting to attack until he doesn't see the other dog anymore. They need some cool off time anyways. Something interesting that happened, though, when we were scrambling to pull them apart we bumped into the tv stand and made a really loud crash. It startled Bernie and he backed off, but of course nothing stops Oliver when he gets into these attack modes. He just kept going. So then Bernie's back at it - defending himself. They say to try to break up a fight try making a loud noise like clanging metal dog bowls together, etc. I don't think that would work with Oliver. I wonder if spraying with a hose would even work? Anyways, like 30 seconds later they were asleep together on their dog bed like nothing had happened...good days and bad .


----------



## Ljilly28

The important dog trainer question is where all bites inhibited? No injuries, marks, or scrapes? 

I would never let these dogs be loose together unsupervised. 

I have a dog I would love to rehome to a one-dog only home, even though I love, love, love him, trained him to titles, snuggle with him, and adore him. I think he would be a happier dog, and he is a beauty who deserves to be someone's heart dog. In my household, I have to manage him so carefully, to prevent what you describe above bc he is a kind of "middle manager" dog who is a bit of a control freak, and he doesnt like being jostled, looked at the wrong way etc. 

It is stressful to have an in house dog aggression problem, and extremely dangerous. You might have to put in fail-safes if they got into a fight with you right there- like crate and rotate.


----------



## boomers_dawn

:bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling: awwwww Is Bernie ok?

I knew a dog like what ljilly is saying. 
She gave Boomer a lip piercing one time .. just without the jewelry.

She did stay in her home with other dogs but required a lifetime of management and vigilance (the crate, muzzle, routine, etc.)


----------



## coaraujo

The bites were inhibited. Oliver's never left bite marks on Bernie in their dozen or so fights. But Oliver's bites are not inhibited with other dogs. Oliver sent my stepmom's mini schnauzer to the ER Vet with very severe wounds that required surgery and my BF's brother's GSP needed a drain put in his bite mark because of its depth. On the bite scale I consider him a 6. I think that with Bernie it's different because they grew up together from day 1. So his bites are inhibited (Or Bernie just plays better defense?). But he's not trusted with any other dog ever. And they aren't left out alone unsupervised ever. Oliver has issues with people too. I think rehoming him would honestly be the opposite of good for him. Maybe its just because I'm his dog mom so I have distorted view on things, but I just don't feel like anyone else would get or understand Oliver and his issues. He's also extremely attached to Bernie even though they fight. When we separated them for a short time while I was at school he went off his food. Bernie's also the only dog he can play with. I know dogs dont NEED to have doggy friends. But golden's love to wrestle and fool around. Bernie's the only one who can do that with Oliver because now Oliver freaks out on every other dog. I wouldn't want to take that away. It really just falls on us being more aware of what's going on (making sure they don't seek any delicious socks out of the hamper when we're not looking) and trying to make more time for individual time with the dogs.


----------



## coaraujo

boomers_dawn said:


> :bawling::bawling::bawling::bawling: awwwww Is Bernie ok?
> 
> I knew a dog like what ljilly is saying.
> She gave Boomer a lip piercing one time .. just without the jewelry.
> 
> She did stay in her home with other dogs but required a lifetime of management and vigilance (the crate, muzzle, routine, etc.)


Berniekins is okay! and of course went straight to Oliver to give him kisses afterwards. Heart of gold that one <3


----------



## mylissyk

I really applaud your dedication to helping Oliver, he's a very lucky boy to be with you. I just feel so bad for Bernie having to defend himself so often.


----------



## coaraujo

Another quick update. Our neighbors next door had a new friend over... a little 9 week old german shepherd puppy. Their brother just got the puppy (sooooo cute!!). Anyways, I wasn't home at the time, but apparently the meeting through the fence didn't go very well. Bernie was completely obsessed because he absolutely loves puppies and is somewhat pedophilish in nature. But my BF said Oliver was tense and nervous and let out some cries and at one point growled at the puppy so he just brought Oliver immediately inside. This is a 5 foot fence with the wire meshing that you can see through so the dogs can touch noses and smell each other. Oliver greets and does well with the neighbor dog just fine as long as its no more than just that contact. He used to be able to play with him, but he can't handle that anymore - can still handle seeing him happily though. But I guess seeing this new puppy made him freak out. He didnt have a full blown out reaction which is good but it sounds like it made him very uncomfortable. My neighbors asked if we should have Oliver smell the puppy and meet him, thank god my BF said "NO". Otherwise that could have been the end of the puppy. Clearly Oliver's issues are still very real. It was a dream really to think anything other than rigorous training would make any difference. Something is very wrong in his head and we will do the best we can to teach him to act like a normal dog and deal with his doggy disability. I just don't understand how he finds a wee little puppy so terrifying.


----------



## Selli-Belle

I hope I haven't just missed it, but have you tried anti-anxiety meds yet?


----------



## coaraujo

Selli-Belle said:


> I hope I haven't just missed it, but have you tried anti-anxiety meds yet?


We have talked about anti-anxiety meds but have not tried them yet. We were attempting other avenues first and still somewhat assessing Oliver's issues. But now - I'm thinking it might be the only way to go. The more I learn and observe the more I think that, unfortunately, there's some serious miswiring going on with him. He's a lovely lovely boy, but genetically something went haywire. He clearly has a bit of a doggy disability. Its not just from a thryoid condition, its not from too much testosterone running around, its not from eating too high protein, its not from lack of training, its not from lack of socialization. We've tested all scenarios. I think this is purely genetic, I really do. I've talk somewhat regularly with one of the owner's of one of Oliver's littermates and, while not aggressive, this dog does exhibit similar anxieties/stresses and fears as Oliver. Oliver used to exhibit the same exact behaviors before he became aggressive. He still does some of them subconsciously before he has his outburst. So what it seems is, unfortunately, Oliver has learned to handle these irrational feelings with aggression. (Also, out of Oliver's dam's second litter a pup came out people aggressive and had to be put down.. so something was going very wrong). So I think anti-anxiety drugs make sense at this point. I think its time to make anothe appointment with my vet behaviorist and get Oliver on medication. My poor poor boy. I just hope I can make him feel safe. I think he feels safe with Bernie for the most part, I just feel bad about all the great things in life that he's missing out on. 

On a positive note (since I've been sharing somewhat negative things lately) while Oliver didn't do well with the new puppy next door, my little sisters came over last weekend and Oliver did fantastic with them. Loved them to pieces. (I was nervous he'd look at them kind of like another dog or as a playmate). But all four of them (Bernie, Ollz and my two little sisters) were running around the yard playing wonderfully. I had them do a lot of training with him so he was looking at the a bit more as authorative figures than playmates. They're little, but still higher than him in the pecking order so he needs to respect that. So clearly there is a lot of room for growth with confidence with people. The future's a little more dim for dogs.


----------



## aussieresc

Before going on regular meds have you considered Rescue Remedy or Composure? We have a dog in rescue right now that is currently on Composure and it is really helping with stress.


----------



## Selli-Belle

aussieresc said:


> Before going on regular meds have you considered Rescue Remedy or Composure? We have a dog in rescue right now that is currently on Composure and it is really helping with stress.


I think with the severity of Oliver's issues I would go for the anti-anxiety route, possibly with an antidepressant. I think the sooner Oliver gets complete relief from his brain issues the better the prognosis for his future.


----------



## sdhgolden

Selli-Belle said:


> I think with the severity of Oliver's issues I would go for the anti-anxiety route, possibly with an antidepressant. I think the sooner Oliver gets complete relief from his brain issues the better the prognosis for his future.



I agree. While you did not sign up for a dog with issues you have dealt with him wonderfully. You were smart to not go straight to the meds and now you know the extent of his issues. If medication is the way to give Oliver somewhat of a normal, happy and less stressful life then why not give it a try. 

Thanks for the updates! And good luck!


----------



## mylissyk

Please don't hesitate to start him on medication. Why wait when it can, and probably will, give him some relief from the constant state of stress he lives in? If the first type of meds don't have the best results, try something different. I have seen them make a complete change in dogs.


----------



## Ljilly28

coaraujo said:


> (Also, out of Oliver's dam's second litter a pup came out people aggressive and had to be put down.. so something was going very wrong). So I think anti-anxiety drugs make sense at this point


Good for you! I think this is the right move. Fluoxetine/ Prozac can be an amazing tool for a biologically anxious dog to live more of a normal life.


----------



## lhowemt

Wow, you certainly have given it an amazing effort. I applaud your efforts, and personal sacrifice, to do all you can to help him become a better adjusted dog. It does sound to me too, at this time, (as an armchair quarterback - not a trainer nor dog professional at all) that meds would be a good next step. If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely be trying them. I am not a "praying" person but I am praying/rooting so much for sweet Oliver to get another chance at enjoying a lower stressed life. Thanks for keeping us all posted. There is no such thing as failure, just quitting. It is hard to learn only by succeeding, and you have tackled a huge personal obstruction to be so willing to fail, and just keep trying and trying and not giving up. Oliver is so so lucky to have you. 

How about some new pictures?


----------



## coaraujo

Thank you everyone for your support and encouragement throughout this whole 'adventure'. I have contacted my behaviorist and hopefully will have an appointment set up soon to get Oliver started on medication. :crossfing fingers crossed this helps out my Olibur-bunny. 

Here is a picture I took today of my two boys with a picture I took 2 years ago (Nov '12). So much has changed, but its nice to see that not all has changed.


----------



## coaraujo

This past weekend was a pretty hectic weekend for the family. My BF's grandmother passed away so we traveled up to his parents and spent 4 days up there with the boys. The boys were very happy to be with their Nana and Poppy. They were hard at work comforting the whole family. We had family over every day and a few times friends of family. 

Knowing Oliver's issues I made it very clear that I HAD to be around whenever anyone was to come over before he was let out of his crate. While he's never acted aggressively toward a human before I know how easily he can be pushed over threshold and I don't want to put him in that situation and cause for that mess. He was great with everyone in the family as he's met them all before and known them all since he was a puppy, even those who have dogs and smell like dogs. However, when the friends of the family came over he did NOT do well at all . When they walked through the door he went off barking like he was terribly frightened. I was in the middle of walking him out the back door and they were walking in the front door. He ran all the way to the end of the leash barking ferociously. He wasn't growling, but you could tell it was his alarm bark. I just continued to take him outside. He repeatedly shook off when we got outside and then sat up next to me as close to possible panting heavily very nervous. So we just sat there and I petted him and we calmed down. My BF brought Bernie in the house first while I stayed outside with Oliver because Bernie loves people. When I brought Oliver inside I kept him tethered to me on the leash because I wanted to have full control of him. He barked at both women. One was sitting in the living room and when we walked into the living room Oliver barked at her and growled a bit. So we laid down on the floor far away. I wish I had had his mat. We just did relaxation work on the floor. The other woman was in the bathroom and when she walked out Oliver jumped up and barked at her. But I immediately got him back into relaxing on the ground with treats and then we did some go say hi and he warmed up to her quickly. The other lady he was much more nervous around. Both these women had dogs, and the women he was more nervous about had other farm animals. I'm not sure if those smells made Oliver freak out? Eventually after doing our mat work - sans mat I started doing some training. Our trainer said its important to get their brains engaged because a dog who is thinking is less likely to react because they're not as likely to act impulsively (they're actually using their brain ). Oliver was gaining some more confidence so he tentatively approached the lady sitting in the living room and sniffed her. I called him back to me and rewarded him. Then he approached her again and let her pet him. I treated him again. Then he was feeling much better. I kept him tethered the whole time until they left.

This is the first time Oliver has ever reacted to a person like this in our home. Usually in "his" place he doesn't get scared by people. Its usually when he's not on his turf and out and about that people make him more nervous. Just the other week we had a friend over that the boys had never met (who has dogs) and Oliver couldn't get enough of her. She also was young though, so I'm not sure if that made a difference. Its always older people. These two women were older ladies. He's only ever growled at older women. He's been nervous around strangers in general when we're out and about (kids, young/old adults) but its seems older women make him the most nervous. 

It definitely shocked my BF's family a bit. They're used to the lovable Oliver which he is 95% of the time. They don't believe us when we tell them he has issues. Truuuuuuust me, the little fluff ball isn't as innocent as he looks.

"I have you all fooled - muahhahaha"








Clearly I still love him to pieces


----------



## lhowemt

Aw, what a bummer! I can only imagine the underlying stress around, with a recent death. That can't have helped him at all and probably was a factor in his behavior. It sounds like you handled it well. Do you think staying on the tether created additional stress for him? Good job getting him busy, I can't imagine what else you would have done except tether. removing him probably would have reinforced his reaction, do you think? 

So sorry about you BF's grandma, that is a tough one.


----------



## Bentman2

Ljilly28 said:


> Good for you! I think this is the right move. Fluoxetine/ Prozac can be an amazing tool for a biologically anxious dog to live more of a normal life.


I am curious about what you mean by biologically anxious? Bentley, is 16 months old now, and I am seeing a trait in him that I have not seen before. He is still intact and have noticed at the dog park that he will get in scuffles with other dogs (most male). He tends to want to be more dominate when there is another male in the park that seems to challenge him. Now we were at the park last week and an adult intact male Doberman came running up to him from the far end of the park and got up around his neck. Well it was on at the drop of a hat. Bentley is a big boy (27.5 inch and 101 lbs) had quite frankly was all over that dog. The Doberman was 1 year old and about 75 lbs. I got Bentley off him but in my mind the Doberman pushed the issue. This is just to say that Bentley does not generally seem aggressive but I am wondering if he lives on the edge of being too anxious. Do you have any thoughts on this as you have seen all types of golden behavior. Is he just being a teenager? :wavey:


----------



## aussieresc

Sounds like the dog park has become a trigger for him. I would not take him there as you don't want to give him the opportunity to practice this behavior. Are you planning on neutering or is he being shown?


----------



## mylissyk

Bentman2 said:


> I am curious about what you mean by biologically anxious? Bentley, is 16 months old now, and I am seeing a trait in him that I have not seen before. He is still intact and have noticed at the dog park that he will get in scuffles with other dogs (most male). He tends to want to be more dominate when there is another male in the park that seems to challenge him. Now we were at the park last week and an adult intact male Doberman came running up to him from the far end of the park and got up around his neck. Well it was on at the drop of a hat. Bentley is a big boy (27.5 inch and 101 lbs) had quite frankly was all over that dog. The Doberman was 1 year old and about 75 lbs. I got Bentley off him but in my mind the Doberman pushed the issue. This is just to say that Bentley does not generally seem aggressive but I am wondering if he lives on the edge of being too anxious. Do you have any thoughts on this as you have seen all types of golden behavior. Is he just being a teenager? :wavey:


You've got a teenager with hormones. It's time to step up the training and teach him to respond to you immediately regardless of the situation. You have to stop taking him to the dog park, he is only practicing aggression there.


----------



## Bentman2

aussieresc said:


> Sounds like the dog park has become a trigger for him. I would not take him there as you don't want to give him the opportunity to practice this behavior. Are you planning on neutering or is he being shown?


Assieresc & Mylissyk, it appears that the dog park is a place where he looks to flex his muscle. Max's Dad also suggested that I not take him to the park too. Bentley is too far outside the standard to show and I will not neuter before 2 yrs. As I mentioned to Max's Dad, I think I will either take him when no other dogs are there or early when I know the set group that will be there. We have a webcam that shows all the dogs that are at the park at any one time. I only live 5 minutes away so I can easily pick my time to go. I also have left at times from the park when dogs that he has issues with, shows up. Thanks guys for your insight.


----------



## coaraujo

Bentman2 said:


> I am curious about what you mean by biologically anxious? Bentley, is 16 months old now, and I am seeing a trait in him that I have not seen before. He is still intact and have noticed at the dog park that he will get in scuffles with other dogs (most male). He tends to want to be more dominate when there is another male in the park that seems to challenge him. Now we were at the park last week and an adult intact male Doberman came running up to him from the far end of the park and got up around his neck. Well it was on at the drop of a hat. Bentley is a big boy (27.5 inch and 101 lbs) had quite frankly was all over that dog. The Doberman was 1 year old and about 75 lbs. I got Bentley off him but in my mind the Doberman pushed the issue. This is just to say that Bentley does not generally seem aggressive but I am wondering if he lives on the edge of being too anxious. Do you have any thoughts on this as you have seen all types of golden behavior. Is he just being a teenager? :wavey:


By biologically anxious I believe Ljilly is referring to a dog who inherited their fear/anxieties from their parents - its genetic related. Like in Oliver's case we've come to find that there are other dogs in his line that have his issues so there is a genetic component to his anxieties and aggression. When this is the underlying factor it can be much harder to train out the issue or impossible (even with medication). 

I would be very careful about the times you go to the dog park if you feel it really necessary to keep going. The more the dog practices aggressive behavior the more aggressive the dog becomes. The dog learns that it works. While your boy may be the nicest of dogs, he's learning that to get these rude obnoxious dogs off of him he should act aggressively. Every time that works he gets a huge reward and it'll be etched in his brain to repeat the behavior again. I recommend setting up interactions where he can practice correct dog greeting behavior. Its up to you to manage his interactions so he can only practice correct behavior. Its not easy, but it'll be worth it in the long run. Remember, keep everything related to dog interactions positive if he's showing any signs of aggression towards other dogs.


----------



## Colie CVT

Doing a swing by your thread to see how the boys are doing. Sorry to hear about your loss, and I would wonder too if all the stress from the people was causing him to worry more than he would normally have. I've seen my Myles go out of his way to try and comfort those who are deeply upset. He stays close to my father when I visit, because he knows how much my dad misses Grizzly. The hardest thing I have ever done was bring him home after he passed away. In all my years, I'd never seen my father break down and cry like he did when he was told that Grizzly was bleeding internally from a splenic tumor.  For a good half hour, it was like I didn't exist. He stayed glued to my father, leaning on him or sitting on his feet, offering what comfort he could. Goldens are very intuitive dogs! 

It sounds like you handled it well, and I am glad the guests handled their part well. I have always made it a point to ignore dogs when I go to another person's house. I keep my posture submissive and non-threatening and simply let them decide. It's worked very well for me all these years. Sounds like you guys are on the right track! I have a feeling he's overwhelmed by all of the sadness. Everyone he knows and loves is upset and he isn't sure to the why they are. Just that they are. I imagine it has to be odd to a dog that everyone in the house is upset, but nothing seems out of the ordinary if that makes sense.


----------



## Bentman2

coaraujo said:


> By biologically anxious I believe Ljilly is referring to a dog who inherited their fear/anxieties from their parents - its genetic related. Like in Oliver's case we've come to find that there are other dogs in his line that have his issues so there is a genetic component to his anxieties and aggression. When this is the underlying factor it can be much harder to train out the issue or impossible (even with medication).
> 
> I would be very careful about the times you go to the dog park if you feel it really necessary to keep going. The more the dog practices aggressive behavior the more aggressive the dog becomes. The dog learns that it works. While your boy may be the nicest of dogs, he's learning that to get these rude obnoxious dogs off of him he should act aggressively. Every time that works he gets a huge reward and it'll be etched in his brain to repeat the behavior again. I recommend setting up interactions where he can practice correct dog greeting behavior. Its up to you to manage his interactions so he can only practice correct behavior. Its not easy, but it'll be worth it in the long run. Remember, keep everything related to dog interactions positive if he's showing any signs of aggression towards other dogs.


*Coaraujo,* what you said makes a lot of sense and I don't think I have had it put to me that way. Yes, above all, I want Bentley to be gentle and easy to get along with other dogs. He loves people and would rather be around people than dogs. Your council has prompted me to just take him to the park when no other dogs are around. This will be for hard exercise, sniffing and just hanging out, outside the house. The park opens at 6:00 am and has lights and a webcam so I can see who, if any, are there. He has a lot of friends and I too but I will tell them why I am postponing trips there for awhile. Thanks for taking the time to explain all this. Godspeed.


----------



## Ljilly28

This is such a useful thread jampacked with good information and practices. 

Yes, there are some dogs who have genetic issues with temperament, and it is so much harder to influence and rehabilitate it them when it is behavioral. 

At Tufts, they have studied and studied dogs who do not have correct seretonin reuptake, similar to humans with chemical/biological depression. Prozac/ Fluxotine can sometimes help those dogs tremendously. There are also other dogs who have a failure in an amino acid processing chain. Those can be very aggressive dogs who are made worse by high protein diet( the protein exacerbates the chain failure. Though these dogs are only a 10 percent of the aggression cases, they are helped almost immediately by a radically low protein diet. Another small percentage have actual brain tumors or tiny epilepsy like seizures known in common parlance as "springer rage". 

For a friendly intact male who feel his oats and tries to be the big man on campus at the dog park , you got great advice. 

Sometimes neutered males will be friendly to all dogs except intact males- so a few experiences of getting harrassed can be a bad lesson. Your dog needs to know YOU will intervene and he does not need to do so on his own behalf. I also agree with never letting him rehearse/practice male to male aggression.

My intact dog Mystic gets along with everyone, but I had a high testosterone guy Copley, and I had to teach him TAIL, for knock it off. Before he did anything, he would lift his tail high- a clue to me time to deal. I have an extremely unpopular view that males who will not be bred should be neutured, bc honestly it is a huge pain to have an intact male, and they have other agendas beside loving you. cannot overstate what a better dog Copley is neutered than as an intact male. Huge, huge difference in him. . .


----------



## coaraujo

Just wanted to post a great article by whole dog journal about canine aggression: Multi-Dog Household Aggression - Whole Dog Journal Article It speaks about trigger stacking and uses some great analogies to help you understand what can be going on with your dog.

Excerpt on how to deal with Aggression from the article below. I had never heard of CAT training before. Just BAT training. I think that would be really good for Bernie who is very wary of other dogs until he discovers if they are friend or foe. He puts on a big fuss to create space and try to make them go away. Bernie to the T ->'In daily life, dogs learn to offer aggressive “distance increasing” signals in order to make other dogs go away.' The CAT procedure teaches the dog that calm behavior can make the other dog go away, and as a result, the aggressive dog can ultimately become friendly and happy about the other dog’s presence. <- this is promising!

"First option: Aggression modification
My first choice with most clients is the first strategy listed above: changing the dogs’ opinion of each other through counter-conditioning and desensitization (CC&D).

CC&D for intra-pack aggression involves changing your dogs’ association with each other from negative to positive. The easiest way to give most dogs a positive association is with very high-value, really yummy treats. I like to use chicken – canned, baked, or boiled, since most dogs love chicken and it’s a low-fat, low-calorie food.

Here’s how the CC&D process works:

1. Determine the distance at which your dogs can be in each other’s presence and be alert or wary but not extremely fearful or aroused. This is called the threshold distance. If one dog has a greater threshold hold distance than the other (often the case), work at the greater distance.

2. With you holding Dog A on leash, have your helper appear with Dog B at threshold distance “X.” The instant your dog sees the other, start feeding bits of chicken, non-stop. Your helper will feed chicken to her dog, too, the instant he notices your dog.

3. After several seconds, have the helper step out of sight with Dog B, and you both stop feeding chicken.

4. Keep repeating steps 1-3 until the sight of the other dog at distance “X” consistently causes both dogs to look at their handlers with a happy smile and a “Yay! Where’s my chicken?” expression. This is the physical presentation of the dogs’ conditioned emotional response (CER); each dog’s association with the other at threshold distance “X” is now positive, so they can deliberately look at you to get their chicken, rather than staying intensely focused on each other.

5. Now you need to increase the intensity of the stimulus by increasing the length of time Dog B stays in sight. Continue to feed chicken when they are in view of each, occasionally pausing to let them look at each other again, and immediately feeding chicken when they do.

6. When length of time seems to make no difference to either dog – you’re getting a consistent “Yay, where’s my chicken?” response regardless of how long Dog B stays in view, increase the intensity again, this time by increasing Dog B’s movement. Have the handler walk back and forth with her dog, still at distance “X,” slowly at first, then with more energy, even adding in some other behaviors such as sit, down, and roll over.

7. Now you’re ready to starting decreasing distance by moving Dog A a little closer to the location where the Dog B will appear. When you obtain consistent CERs from both dogs at each new distance you can decrease the distance a little more, until both dogs are happy to be very near each other.

8. Then return to your original threshold distance and increase intensity stimulus by having Dog B move around more and more, as you gradually decrease distance and obtain CERs from both dogs along the way, until they are delighted to be near each other.

9. Now go back to your starting distance and increase intensity again, by having both dogs move more naturally as the distance decreases, offering CERs at each new distance before you come any closer, until they can be within six feet of each other, moving around, still relaxed and happy about chicken.

10. Finally, find ways for your dogs to engage separately in mutually enjoyable activities together. If they both enjoy car rides, take them for a drive, but be sure they are seat-belted or crated far enough apart to avoid any tension. If they love hiking, take them on “parallel” walks, one with you, one with your training partner, with humans between them at first, and eventually with dogs between humans when you’re sure their emotions are appropriate. Parallel swims, for dogs who love the water, can work well too.

When you feel the dogs are ready to finally interact with each other again, be careful not to undo all your hard work. You might first let them greet through a barrier, such as a baby gate or exercise pen.


Chronic stress and unrelenting tension reduce the quality of life for your whole family; sometimes rehoming is kinder.

It’s useful to desensitize both dogs to a muzzle over the period you’re desensitizing them to each other (in separate sessions), so the first time you’re ready for them to actually interact together you can muzzle them and be confident they can’t hurt each other. (For instructions on how to desensitize your dog to wearing a muzzle, go to abrionline.org/videos.php and click on “Jean Donaldson, Conditioning an Emotional Response.”)

The more intense the relationship between the two dogs, the more challenging it is to modify their behavior. The more negative interactions they’ve had, the more injuries, the longer the tension has been going on, and the stronger their emotions, the longer it will take to reprogram their responses to each other. If they were good friends at one time, it’s likely to be easier than if they’ve always been aggressive with each other.

Remember to seek the help of a qualified positive behavior professional if you don’t feel competent and confident about working with your dogs on your own.

Second option: Operant strategies
The second option is to teach your dogs a new operant behavior in response to each other, using the “Constructional Aggression Treatment” (CAT) procedure developed by Dr. Jesus Rosales-Ruiz and Kellie Snider at the University of North Texas. (See “Build Better Behavior,” May 2008, and “Revisiting CAT,” December 2009.)

In daily life, dogs learn to offer aggressive “distance increasing” signals in order to make other dogs go away. Every time this works, the “go away” behavior is reinforced. The CAT procedure teaches the dog that calm behavior can make the other dog go away, and as a result, the aggressive dog can ultimately become friendly and happy about the other dog’s presence.

A variation on the operant approach is the “Behavioral Adjustment Training” procedure (BAT) created by trainer Grisha Stewart, MA, CPDT-KA, CPT, at Ahimsa Dog Training in Seattle, Washington. BAT is similar to CAT, but uses a variety of environmental reinforcers rather than the location and movement of the other dog exclusively.

As in CAT, the BAT procedure reinforces behaviors other than aggression in the presence of the other dog. In this case, however, your repertoire of reinforcers is larger, including the use of food reinforcers and having the “subject” dog (the aggressive one) move away instead of the other dog. (For more information about BAT, see ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/bat.)

If one or both of the dogs are ready to do battle on sight, they must be strictly managed and kept separate from each other except when you’re doing your controlled modification procedure with them. If the aggression is more predictable and situational, the dogs can be together as long as you can manage and prevent the trigger(s) from causing conflict.

Third option: Management
What does it mean to “manage your dogs’ environment to minimize exposure to his stressors”? Simply put, it means making changes to your dog’s environment in order to keep your dogs away from the stimuli that stress them.

If the dogs are stressed by each other, of course, the first task is to keep them separated, through the assiduous use of doors, fences, baby gates, crates, and tethers. Smart positioning can help; locate the dogs’ crates or tethering area out of the other dogs’ sightline. Take them outdoors to potty separately, and separate them well before feeding time, to reduce tensions that arise when everyone is jostling to be fed first.

Next, try to minimize your dogs’ exposure to other stressful stimuli. For example: Say one of your dogs goes over threshold when she sees the mailman approaching your house through the living room window, and her barking display of aggression seems to agitate your other dog. Installing shutters on the window might work (to block your dogs’ view), but closing the door to the front room (to keep the dogs as far away from the sight and sound of the mailman) would be even better. Or you could move your mailbox to toward the sidewalk, instead of next to the front door – the farther from the house, the better. Be creative!

More management tools: Stress-reducing strategies
There are a host of other things you can do to lower general stress in your dogs’ environment.

Exercise can be immensely helpful in minimizing overall tension. Physical activity uses up excess energy that might otherwise feed your dogs’ aggressive behaviors, (a tired dog is a well-behaved dog). Exercise also causes your dog’s body to release various chemicals, including endorphins and norepinephrine, helping to generate a feeling of well-being; an exercised dog is a happy dog! Happy dogs are simply less likely to fight.

Even the food you feed your dog can have an impact on his behavior. Poor quality protein can interfere with a dog’s ability to make use of the serotonin that occurs naturally in his system. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that helps regulate mood and sleep, and also affects memory and learning. Foods containing high-quality protein can contribute to your dogs’ behavioral health and physical health.

Basic training enables you and your dog to communicate more easily with each other (which is less stressful for both of you), and helps your dog understand how his world works, which reduces his stress. A good training program emphasizes structure and consistency, both of which make a dog’s world more predictable. Predictability equals less stress; unpredictably is stressful.

If you’ve ever had a massage, you know how calming touch can be. Dogs aren’t that different from us; you can calm and soothe your dog with physical touch, both through canine massage and TTouch. Combine your calming touch sessions with aromatherapy, by using a therapeutic-quality lavender essential oil in an electric nebulizing diffuser in the room while you massage your dog. Then you can build your dog’s “ahhh” association with the lavender scent to help him be calm in more stressful environments, by putting a few drops of essential oil on a bandana that you tie around his neck or on the bedding in his crate.

Other environmental stress reducers include: ¡ö Comfort Zone™ (also known as Dog Appeasing Pheromone, or DAP). This is a synthetic substance that is supposed to mimic the pheromones emitted by a mother dog when she’s nursing puppies. Available through pet supply stores and catalogs.

- Through a Dog’s Ear. This set of audio CDs consists of bio-acoustically engineered soothing classical piano music, which has been shown to reduce dogs’ heart rates. Available from throughadogsear.com or (800) 788-0949.

- Anxiety Wrap.™ This product helps dogs (and cats) overcome their fears and anxieties using the gentle technique of “maintained pressure” – similar to the effect of swaddling for a human infant. Available from anxietywrap.com or (877) 652-1266."


----------



## coaraujo

*Update*

We brought Oliver to the vet yesterday for his annual check up. He also was due for his next C6 test to see if his levels are finally where we want them to be. We brought Bernie along because he's been really itchy lately and wanted to get him checked out too. Even having his brother there Oliver was incredibly anxious. He's never been that bad at the vet . He was crying, panting, jumping up on my frantically. Basically having a doggy panic attack. He was able to settle after a few minutes, but man I couldn't believe how bad he was. Bernie...couldn't have cared less. He loves the vet. Free cookies and people to love on him. 

Next week we have an appointment with our vet behaviorist to get Oliver on anxiety medication. Our vet agrees that its probably a good idea. We're not sure what kind yet, our behaviorist said sometimes it can be a bit of trial and error before you find the right brand/kind that works for you and your dog. I just feel so bad for Oliver. I can't believe how bad he freaked out. 

Other than that I think that the boys are learning how to live together with Olivers anxiety. When we get our Barkbox in the mail we are giving them the toys on separate floors so they can enjoy the novelty of a new toy without the threat of it being stolen away. We haven't had another fight between the two since the glove incident which I believe was about a month ago. I'd like to get Oliver in classes again, but I'm not sure if that's something he'll be able to handle. He's so smart I don't want him to get bored. Maybe the anxiety meds will be enough to get him at least through the door so we can be in the same room as other dogs. We will see... we probably won't be trying anything until after the holidays though. Too crazy and busy! Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


----------



## coaraujo

Hello from Oliver!


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

I really appreciate your updates--I'm learning so much. As the owner of my own reactive dog (my Aussie), I completely sympathize with what you're going through and know how just plain frustrating it can be. More than once I've wished I could just sit her down and say, "How can you be so smart about everything else but still not understand the world doesn't want to kill you?"

I've learned more about handling dogs from working with her for 9 years than I have working with all of the rest of mine put together, so that's the good news. But there's always something new to consider and that's why a thread like yours is so valuable.

So thanks! I hope you all have a lovely holiday.


----------



## TheZ's

Thanks for the update. I've been wondering how you all are doing. Love the picture of Oliver, he's such a handsome boy.


----------



## coaraujo

Quick side note - results are in from the vet. Oliver's C6 came back at 21!!!!! We are Lyme freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.:banana::banana::banana: So exciting. We went from 141 in December to 82 in April to 21 now. Yay for a healthy Oliver. Not sure why his knees were a bit swollen on his x-rays at neuter though if his active infections is gone. Hopefully his joint supplements are helping with that and his arthritis.


----------



## Eowyn

Noreaster said:


> I've learned more about handling dogs from working with her for 9 years than I have working with all of the rest of mine put together, so that's the good news. But there's always something new to consider and that's why a thread like yours is so valuable.


I have found you learn more from the difficult dogs than the easy ones! 

I have not done a good job of keeping up with it but I do really appreciate this thread.


----------



## coaraujo

We met with our vet behaviorist saturday morning. I feel like after every appointment with her I always feel like I'm doing everything wrong with Oliver. She brings up really good points and its just frustrating because its so hard to think of everything when you're living every day life. For instance, when our neighbors have the german shepherd puppy visit I would sometimes take Oliver out on the leash and give him treats every time he looked at the puppy. I was thinking rewarding him looking calmly at the puppy was a good thing. But the behaviorist didn't think that was the best idea. She doesn't really agree with rewarding for looking at other dogs in general. I guess thats something to talk with my trainer about. I thought rewarding for calmly recognizing there's another dog was a good thing, but at the same time I don't want him to search and look for dogs. We also hadn't work with our mat in a really long time so when I laid it out during our meeting Oliver didn't lay on it once. She said he definitely doesn't find the mat a secure place yet or understand what its for so we should try to do 20-30 minutes of work with it every night. We're going to get some homework emailed to us for what to work on. She thinks repeating the shy and fearful dog class we did would be good for Oliver. Or doing a training class where dogs train one at a time and during the off time the other dogs are crated or in the car or under control and contained. Something like agility or nosework. She said depending on the training center we'd be able to find something that was right for Oliver. She thinks that the down time would be great for Oliver to work on mat work and calming behaviors and then every so often he'd have his few minutes of training time in the ring. I agree that this set up would be better than an hour long obedience class where he'd be surrounded by other dogs working and constantly have to work the whole time. I think that would be too much for him and I dont think he'd be able to keep himself under control for that long. We went over his anxiety and behavior and because of his lack of impulse control she decided that we'll try him on prozac. We're starting him on a low dose and we have to closely monitor him because it can interact with his thyroid medicine. We have to get a general CBC done on him first just to make sure he's okay to start the medicine and then we'll get him on it. I'm hoping this helps him a bit. He cried all the way into the behaviorist's building and on thanksgiving was very jumpy in my brother's house. I feel like I have so much learning to do still with how to handle Oliver. Its overwhelming. For instance, when he cries when going new places he'll stop if he can kind of sneak ahead and look about. I obviously can't let him do this being an aggressive dog so he has to heel with me. But when my boyfriend with me he'll walk ahead and make sure the coast is clear and then I'll let Oliver sniff it out and check things out instead of heel by my side. The behaviorist said this was a bad idea and he should heel by my side. But when I was working with my trainer she said when he's that stressed out I shouldn't be asking him for a behavior and shouldn't really expect anything from him. So I dont really know what to do. Obviously for safety reasons sometimes he has to be right by my side. But when we can give him the space is it bad to let him go ahead and sniff around? I dont understand why he cries more if he has to stay by my side. He can't scan his surroundings as well I guess? So he feels like more monsters are hiding around? 

My head feels like its spinning. I think we need to get back into training classes with our trainer from Port Chester. She seemed to know what was best for Oliver. She also knows my vet behaviorist and I guess they had talked about Oliver. I think my behaviorist likes her a lot. So thats good.


Oh.. quick side note. Just a story about Oliver's strange resource guarding. We got the boys new nyla bones so the novelty hasn't quite worn off yet. Oliver has to go get one and bring it right in front of Bernie to chew it. He likes to flaunt and instigate. Bernie could care less. He's so sleepy from the holidays, he's literally falling asleep with his head up. It was really cute actually. So here's Bernie, eyes closed. And Olivers growling at him, guarding his bone :doh:. I was like, are you for real? I made Oliver get up and sit on the other side of the table so Bernie could sleep in peace. Bernie didn't even wake up. But I just dont understand. How do you resource guard with a sleeping dog?! Sometimes Oliver's fluffy butt makes me go insane! He's lucky he's so cute.


----------



## coaraujo

Me and my boys


----------



## lhowemt

Don't be so darned hard on yourself! Of course this is overwhelming, it is hard enough to teach our human rules to "normal" dogs. Look at all the exasperated puppy threads. Now you have to do a post-Doc, without the benefit of the phd, yikes!... i have no advice other than to keep talking, keep listening, and just do your best. There is no 1 right way for anything, so cut yourself some slack. Of course two people have two different paths to the end result. I would probably err on following the behaviorist's advice until I had exhausted them all. after you get more experience with this, you will start to see what works and doesn't. It just takes time. You are doing awesome!

Do you have a journal of odd things to go over with the behavioralist? Things like guarding against sleepy Bernie, those things may be big cues as to the root cause.

Will cross my fingers for the prozac to help. A lot! Sweet photos of the boys together, it is so nice they habe each other (thankful)


----------



## lhowemt

How is Oliver doing?


----------



## coaraujo

Thanks for checking in . We had to get a CBC done before we could start Oliver on his anxiety medicine, now that that all came back normal I just have to pick up the pills tomorrow and we'll be ready to start. My breeder is coming to visit this Sunday and see Oliver. I'm nervous for what she'll think of his behavior. I feel like he's gotten worse about people coming over the house. He used to only be anxious with strangers outside the house that we met on walks, etc. But now he seems to have little panic attacks when people come over too, then settles down somewhat. Doesn't really calm down for a while after though. Today we had a contractor stop by for an estimate. I wasn't home but I guess Oliver was very nervous when the guy came over. He barked a lot, jumped all over him, and after he left couldn't settle and sniffed around the house non-stop for a while. The guy really liked big dogs and could tell Oliver had anxiety issues. I guess he told my BF he noticed Olivers lips were pulled-back tight when he was jumping greeting him - all anxious. He said he was surprised since he's a golden retriever. I wish I had been home. That is not how the whole situation should have been handled. Oliver really can't ever be allowed to jump on people. I realize jumping is rude behavior no matter what, but he doesn't have excessive greeting disorder like most goldens - he's jumping on you because he's having a panic attack. He's never bit a human, but I don't want to put him in a situation where he feels the need to. Hopefully the prozac will help some with this though. I'm nervous for the holidays. A lot of traveling and then we are going away for a few days and the grandparents are watching the boys. I get nervous leaving them now. Oliver is a very big liability. I don't trust him with anyone but myself. 

Happy Holidays








P.S. We have a dog training center near us with a swimming pool that you can privately rent out for a decent price. I'm hoping to get a few swims in for the boys. That'll be a good way to get some energy out for them without other dogs being around. Hopefully they will both find it fun.


----------



## Max's Dad

Thanks for the update. Hope so much that the Prozac helps Oliver. Hope you have a Happy Holiday Season.


----------



## lhowemt

Private Pool party! Just what the dr ordered. I hope all goes well over the holidays, and that the prozac kicks in quickly and effectively. Did they tell you how long to expect to wait for it to start to work? 3 weeks maybe?


----------



## aussieresc

Which training center has the dog pool?


----------



## lhowemt

How is Oliver doing?


----------



## Karen519

*Oliver*

Praying the meds help sweet Oliver. Has his thyroid been tested?


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

I hear you...for years my husband, lovely as he is, just couldn't quite get that our Aussie was never just going to snap out of it one glorious day and magically turn into an extrovert. So he'd let her get into situations that I would not...i think subconsciously thinking it would help her get over it. 

In fairness, we had had easy dogs for many years, but we did have to both come to terms with never putting her in a position to fail. She turned nine last week and has never even snapped at anyone, so caution pays, as you know.

I so hope the new meds are helping your boy...


----------



## coaraujo

Finally updating about Oliver! 

Really quick - the training center that has the swimming pool is Dog Gone Smart. We never ended up finding the time to go unfortunately. Its still on my to do list.

Oliver has been on Prozac 10mg once a day for almost a month now. Its been hard to tell how much of a difference it has made since we haven't had much to compare his behavior to. We haven't done much outside the house. Something we have noticed is that he hasn't had any random barking spells since he's been on it. He used to sometimes just randomly jump up and do his alert bark at nothing. My behaviorist called it "barking at monsters in his head". So maybe the medicine is helping with that? :crossfing. 

He has been doing really bad with people. He has pretty extreme panic attacks when people come over. Barking fits, jumping up with his face pulled back tight panting heavily. He even growled at one of our friends. Now we have him behind a baby gate when people come over. He still panics behind the gate, but at least he can't get any relief/reward for releasing his anxiety all over the people. After a few minutes he seems to be able to settle and is happy to see everyone. That hasn't improved yet with the medicine. (We had a few people over for the Superbowl).

Late January we attended a health clinic to get the boys' eye clearances done and get Oliver's thyroid retested. We have to test it to make sure the anxiety medicine isn't interfering with his thyroid or we'll have to adjust the dose of his thyroid medicine. I brought Oliver into the clinic with his muzzle on. I am trying to be better about making him follow more rules when in situations where he's anxious. He cries and whines when he's anxious and likes to walk ahead and sniff around. My behaviorist said that this probably isn't the best idea, especially considering his aggression. Making him heal by me will be better for him even if he doesn't want to at first. It'll give him something else to think about. He can't handle a perfect heel all the way from the car to the clinic so we walked one or two steps then sat, and continued in this fashion all the way to the door. He did pretty well. Cried and whined a little, but the more he tried to focus on heeling the less he cried. He also did really well in health clinic. Twice there were dog encounters. Once while we were waiting for our turn to get our eyes done. We waited in the far corner and a dog walked by us. I made Oliver "Watch". He stiffened, but I kept up a jolly voice and he didn't growl or anything. The dog was probably 10 feet away. The next encounter was when we were leaving the thyroid draw area. We had to walk through the waiting room where there was a pretty little female. She was very calm and quiet. My BF and I walked in between the other dog and Oliver and I just held his collar to my side. You're not allowed to be in the room while they draw the blood for the thyroid test so Oliver was so excited to be back with me that he didn't even notice the other dog. In the end it was a very successful trip! I think maybe the anxiety medicine is starting to work? And we're learning how to deal with his issues better every day. 


I need to try and stay on top of updating this thread more often! Hopefully we will be getting out more and I'll have some more experiences to talk about. For now Oliver is very happy hanging out with his brother


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Thanks for the update!

You are doing such a marvelous job with him!


----------



## TheZ's

I think I saw you at the health clinic. Gracie had her eyes and heart checked at the HVGRC clinic. We were just getting in the car when I saw a young couple with a younger male with a basket muzzle. I thought it might be you and was going to say hello but you looked like Oliver needed your full attention.

Zoe and I used to do some training at DogGoneSmart and I always wondered about the pool. I thought it was more for hydrotherapy than swimming for exercise. Let us know how you like it if you go.


----------



## inge

Thanks for the update! You are doing such a good job with both boys...that pool at DogGone Smart always fascinated me when I took the girls there for Therapy Dog class.


----------



## coaraujo

Just wanted to post a link to an article I found about dog-dog aggression:

https://positively.com/contributors...ing-the-ability-to-get-along-with-each-other/

The main cause of DA the article brings up is socialization, doesn't really talk about genetics. Makes me wonder if things could have turned out differently with Oliver if we had raised him differently. 

So many what ifs


----------



## SheetsSM

coaraujo said:


> Just wanted to post a link to an article I found about dog-dog aggression:
> 
> https://positively.com/contributors...ing-the-ability-to-get-along-with-each-other/
> 
> The main cause of DA the article brings up is socialization, doesn't really talk about genetics. Makes me wonder if things could have turned out differently with Oliver if we had raised him differently.
> 
> So many what ifs


Please don't spend a second what-if'ing Oliver's upbringing. I honestly believe there is a chemical imbalance or something else going on in his brain which is the actual culprit behind his behavior. That article ties the genetic component (nature) w/ nurture. It talks of the "cautious" 4 month old (genetic) that is put into overstimulating situations resulting in fear aggression.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

It is well accepted that for some dogs, aggression has a genitic cause. Here in Nova Scotia, a rescue group takes dogs that have been chained their entire life and finds loving homes for them. Despite no socialization, very little human contact, most of these dogs do well once in their new homes. I'm not saying this to discredit the need for socialization, I do agree with many points in this article. 
But doing everything right does not ensure you a worry - free dog, and sometimes doing everything wrong doesn't destroy the dog's temperment.


----------



## lloyddobler

Just found this thread and was curious how your sweet Oliver and Bernie boys are doing? I hope that they are both doing well and you are able to live a bit more stress free.


----------



## MommyMe

Okay, not to totally hijack the thread, but I just have to say it... Love your dog's name!!! Totally made me smile, and now I have Peter Gabriel music in my head...


----------



## lloyddobler

MommyMe said:


> Okay, not to totally hijack the thread, but I just have to say it... Love your dog's name!!! Totally made me smile, and now I have Peter Gabriel music in my head...


Thanks!! Most people have no idea who Lloyd Dobler is and think I'm crazy!  Say Anything is my all time favorite movie and Lloyd Dobler is one of the most likeable characters of all time, IMHO! I'm glad I'm not alone!


----------



## coaraujo

Hey Everyone! Just saw this thread pop up in my email and thought I'd give a quick update. The boys are living a happy stress free life full of pets and treats and visits to their Nana and Poppys house. We don't do anything with Oliver where he'll be around other dogs. Occasionally our neighbor has their brothers dog over and we just keep Oliver inside during these times because he tries to attack him through the fence. He's pretty weary of old people who arent really "with it" so we avoid subjecting him them. He gets really nervous in new environments si when we have the opportunity in safe situations we expose him to new places. We do hunting training with Bernie and hes reactive and grumpy for the first few classes until he gets used to the dogs in class. Hes still good with small dogs and puppies. But a grump with big dogs unless theyre super friendly. I think ive decided hes just a big ole brat. But theyre both adorable and lovable and great at home. Were diligent with training and that helps immensely. If anyone wants to know specific details about what we do with either dog (since they both have their issues ) feel free to ask away or PM me. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## coaraujo

Here are some pictures of the boys

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Thank you for the update and the gorgeous photos! I know with my project dog, there did come a point where I learned enough about her to know what was unlikely to change and had to be addressed by management so that we avoided situations that would set off her reactivity. It's not always easy, as you know, but my crazy girl lives a happy life and is not a danger to others. She doesn't have to go for Miss Congeniality!

You've done such a marvelous job with your boys and by documenting your experience, you've helped many others. Thank you.


----------



## coaraujo

Noreaster said:


> Thank you for the update and the gorgeous photos! I know with my project dog, there did come a point where I learned enough about her to know what was unlikely to change and had to be addressed by management so that we avoided situations that would set off her reactivity. It's not always easy, as you know, but my crazy girl lives a happy life and is not a danger to others. She doesn't have to go for Miss Congeniality!
> 
> You've done such a marvelous job with your boys and by documenting your experience, you've helped many others. Thank you.


I feel like that's a big part of it, my BF and I finally feel like we have a really good grasp on both Oliver's and Bernie's issues. I've learned so much about dog aggression with these two. The difference between true aggression and reactivity. How the severity can differ. Its amazing because we'll go places with the two of them, like for a walk around the neighborhood. Bernie's very reactive (to more than just dogs) so he'll be barking and grumbling. Oliver's quiet and just seems like your typical Golden, crazy and pulling excited to be outside. People want to stray away from Bernie because he's so vocal and nuts. But really its the silent one you need to watch out for. If a dog ran up to Bernie at most he'd tell him off with some rude doggy words (he'd probably end up wanting to play), but if a dog ran up to Oliver it'd be game over. It's why we can't take Oliver anywhere without a muzzle unless we know dogs won't be offleash. Just this past weekend we took Bernie to a pond/hiking trail for his 3rd birthday so he could do some water retrieves. He was pretty vocal every time we saw a dog, but we'd just walk off the path and let the other dog pass and give them space. When we found a nice space to let him swim another dog who was offleash came up to us. We told them that Bernie wasn't friendly with other dogs, but they insisted their dog got along with every dog and let him approach. This is exactly why we can't take Oliver anywhere. Oliver would have attacked him as soon as he got up to him. Bernie sniffed him and decided he didn't want to be friends with this dog and for the most part ignored him while we continued to do retrieves next to each other. Later that day we met up with my BF's cousin's dog who's just about a year old and has a super happy-go-lucky personality (The white fluffball in the picture above). Bernie instantly loved him and flopped on his back to play. We knew Bernie was going to hit it off with him. You just get to know your dog. Bernie's a grump, but he's not a threat. Oliver seems like an angel, but he's dangerous. 


I also feel like I've kind of completed the grieving process. I had a lot of big hopes and dreams for Oliver and we were well on our way when all of a sudden he became extremely aggressive and I think I kind of went through all of the stages of grief haha. And now I'm in the final acceptance stage and we just love him as the little killer fluffball he is.


----------



## lloyddobler

I second Noreaster's comments above. This thread is very helpful and is definitely giving me a lot of things to think about with my own pup. You've been through the ringer of issues and I'm so happy to hear that you're now through the worst of it and now know how to effectively manage things so everyone is happy and safe. 

I'd love to learn more about the training that you are doing that helps your pups. My dog is now almost 10 months old and is just hitting his peak in terms of hormones. He was never reactive or aggressive at all until about the last 4-6 weeks. It started out very gradually.... he reacted by barking at a boxer that walked by us (both on leash). It startled me because he had never done that to any dog before. He now goes absolutely nutty every time he sees a boxer and will sometimes lunge and bark at other large dogs as well. He growls, shows his teeth and would easily get into a nasty fight if I let him. He also reacted that way yesterday to a rottie who was sweet and very non-reactive. I know this is the age when these types of behaviors will appear, so I'm very anxious to ensure I do things correctly so it doesn't become a bigger issue. 

I'm having a full thyroid panel run and am expecting the results by the end of the week to rule that out. I'm also considering neutering earlier than I had planned. I was going to try to wait until 14-18 months, but now think I'll move forward at 12 months, understanding it won't fix the issue but may impact how other dogs respond to him. I fully understand that training and ensuring he is only put in situations where he's going to be successful are also key. 

I'm grieving right now too as I had such hopes of off leash parks and dog beaches and being able to take my buddy everywhere and at this point in time is not going to be our reality. I had been able to to do that with my previous dogs, so this is definitely a new experience and makes me sad. I can't imagine the emotions you went through as you worked through all these issues with your two pups.

Let me know if there is an online resource or something that would be easy to reference in terms of the training you are doing. I'd hate for you to have to write a novel to explain!


----------



## sdhgolden

Thanks for the update! I agree this is an amazing thread full of so much helpful information. Both Oliver and Bernie are adorable in the photos. Is Oliver still taking Prozac? Do you think it made much of a difference? Also has the fighting stopped between the two of them? You have done an amazing job caring for them and educating yourself on your dogs. It's impressive and Oliver and Bernie are very lucky to have you!


----------



## coaraujo

sdhgolden said:


> Thanks for the update! I agree this is an amazing thread full of so much helpful information. Both Oliver and Bernie are adorable in the photos. Is Oliver still taking Prozac? Do you think it made much of a difference? Also has the fighting stopped between the two of them? You have done an amazing job caring for them and educating yourself on your dogs. It's impressive and Oliver and Bernie are very lucky to have you!


I'm happy you brought this up! My boyfriend and I were just talking about this at dinner the other night. He's actually been off of it for about a week while we're trying to get it refilled. I contacted his vet behaviorist who prescribes it as we're out of refills and for some reason there's been a delay. We've both noticed he's seemed extra anxious since. While on it, it was somewhat hard to tell if it was working. But now seeing him without the medicine he seems to not be handling himself as well. He freaks out more over things that before wouldn't have bothered him, he freaks out longer, he obsesses over things. He takes longer to calm down. When he was on it his problems weren't gone by any means, he still had anxiety, he still tried to attack other dogs, but everyday life seemed to be a little less stressful for him. Which probably made him less likely to react in general. The fighting has for the most part stopped between the two of them. I think there's been maybe one fight? Its always over a toy or something of the sorts (toys that have been lying on the floor for weeks :doh. We can read their body language and almost always know when to take things away before its too late. They're fed on separate sides of the kitchen. We have really gotten the management aspect of it down. I can tell when we're close to a fight (its like kids) because the room will get silent and they'll just be staring at each other motionless. So i'll just take whatever items they have and put them in a closet and we'll go to the kitchen for a treat. They've learned the routine I think. 

Something I've found is how much trust they've put in us. My BF's parents watch them for us alot. When they watch them nothing the least bit high value can be left out because when we're not their they can't seem to handle sharing. But when we're around they'll play with the items without fighting. Oliver's also much more anxious/reactive when we're not around. Don't get me wrong, they love Nana and Poppy! But I think all the training we've done has really established a foundation of trust and knowledge that we will keep them safe and protect them - even from each other. If that makes sense.


----------



## coaraujo

lloyddobler said:


> I second Noreaster's comments above. This thread is very helpful and is definitely giving me a lot of things to think about with my own pup. You've been through the ringer of issues and I'm so happy to hear that you're now through the worst of it and now know how to effectively manage things so everyone is happy and safe.
> 
> I'd love to learn more about the training that you are doing that helps your pups. My dog is now almost 10 months old and is just hitting his peak in terms of hormones. He was never reactive or aggressive at all until about the last 4-6 weeks. It started out very gradually.... he reacted by barking at a boxer that walked by us (both on leash). It startled me because he had never done that to any dog before. He now goes absolutely nutty every time he sees a boxer and will sometimes lunge and bark at other large dogs as well. He growls, shows his teeth and would easily get into a nasty fight if I let him. He also reacted that way yesterday to a rottie who was sweet and very non-reactive. I know this is the age when these types of behaviors will appear, so I'm very anxious to ensure I do things correctly so it doesn't become a bigger issue.
> 
> I'm having a full thyroid panel run and am expecting the results by the end of the week to rule that out. I'm also considering neutering earlier than I had planned. I was going to try to wait until 14-18 months, but now think I'll move forward at 12 months, understanding it won't fix the issue but may impact how other dogs respond to him. I fully understand that training and ensuring he is only put in situations where he's going to be successful are also key.
> 
> I'm grieving right now too as I had such hopes of off leash parks and dog beaches and being able to take my buddy everywhere and at this point in time is not going to be our reality. I had been able to to do that with my previous dogs, so this is definitely a new experience and makes me sad. I can't imagine the emotions you went through as you worked through all these issues with your two pups.
> 
> Let me know if there is an online resource or something that would be easy to reference in terms of the training you are doing. I'd hate for you to have to write a novel to explain!


 
Something that I would do is look for a shy/fearful dog class around you. One where theres just a few dogs in the class (maybe 3 or 4). Everyone's very spread out. Only positive methods are used. Usually they focus a lot on relaxation work and mat work. I think this was one of the best things we did with Oliver. Its where we learned the most about his aggression. We learned the hard way how severe his aggression was because he attacked and sent my stepmoms dog to the emergency vet. But with this class we were able to learn what exactly Oliver could handle without getting reactive. For example, he could handle being around other dogs if everyone was lying on their mat a good 100 feet away. He could handle working around the other dogs if they were laying on their mat. He started falling apart if they were moving while he was trying to do commands. If he stopped thinking (i.e. I stopped asking for behaviors) while the other dogs were moving he started reacting - even from a far distance. We found that he really obsesses over things so he would zone in on toys and play. He would play with toys and other dogs could be moving and get maybe 50ft, 25 ft from him and he wouldn't notice/care. We learned that there was a very fine line between Oliver being okay and falling apart. I learned that he has to always be using his brain in order to stay rational and calm. When we go for walks until he's tired and settled. Its sit heel sit heel sit heel. I honestly feel kind of bad for him because it seems like a horrible walk - like he must want to go sniff everything. But if I just let him walk he's a squirrel at the end of the leash whimpering and crying, spazzing out. When we sit, heel he's focused on me and calm. He's thinking. Eventually he walks calmly by my side but in new environments it takes him a while to get settled. 

I can't remember the names of the books right now, I'll have to look when I get home but there are quite a few great books on aggression. I didn't necessarily do all the training they suggested but reading the stories and taking bits and pieces from each really helped me. There's a lot you'll realize you accidentally contribute to the dogs anxiety - like tightening up on the leash when there's another dog. So you can train your dog that a tight leash is a good thing with clicker training. That's something we worked on a little. But more than anything it just made me more aware. So when we do dog greetings with Bernie and other dogs I make every effort to keep the leash as loose as possible. Any tension gets transfered to the dog and with an already reactive dog that will only make things worse. 

The biggest piece of advice I can give is don't let him practice being reactive. Every time he has an episode he's getting reinforcement to do it again. There's a release they get when lash out like that. Its like when you've had an awful day and you've had it all pent up inside and all of a sudden you finally just let it all out. You feel better afterwards right? So do our dogs. That might mean going for a walk in a different area. Or maybe not going for walks at all and getting creative and finding a different way to exercise. Try to create only positive dog-dog interactions. Does he have any dog friends that he gets along with? Set up play dates with them so he's having some continual positive interactions. Look into finding a trainer to work with who has the shy/fearful dog class where he'll be around dogs at a distance but not so close that he's uncomfortable. Its a slow process. You have to move at your dogs pace. 

Something else I do, which people around you will probably think you're crazy. You never want to punish an aggressive/reactive dog. So the first thing I do is redirect. But I try to be as jolly as I can be. As soon as their attention flips to me its happy happy joy joy. You want the negative energy to dissipate. You'll figure out what exactly works and doesn't work. I know talking to Oliver when he's zoned in on a dog won't do anything so I have to physically redirect him and then we can be happy happy in the opposite direction. If we're far enough away he'll respond to voice but let's be real it doesn't always work out perfectly and dogs get closer than we're expecting. People don't usually understand why I'm so happy about my dog being aggressive - because people think you're supposed to punish your dog when he's aggressive and yell at him. The last thing I want to do is add more negative feelings to the situation. Redirect, distract and start towards positive emotions. Make the biggest fuss when your dog doesn't react to another dog. Doesn't react means acts positively or neutrally, or even isn't really that happy about the other dog but isn't blowing up. If you can beat them to the blow up thats huge. If your pup sees another dog and you can start throwing a party (while turning around in the other direction) that is huge. "Oh my gosh, you saw that puppy over there, and look at you. You didn't even explode! My little killer doggy and you didn't even splode like you normally do. What a cute little killer doggy! Mommy's so proud of you. Here's a billion treats!" I'll probably be hopping around, maybe pushing on his butt a little because he likes to wrestle with me and we'll be walking away from the other dog. This is literally how it goes. I look like a crazy person and if people can hear what I'm saying they probably think I need to be taking the prozac. 


Whoops I wrote a novel : Oh I also trained Oliver on a muzzle because of the severity of his aggression. Depending on how bad your pup is on the bite scale that could be a good option for you. I have some videos in this thread on how I taught him. I think its a nice back up option so that we can take him places because there's always a risk an off leash dog runs up to him. With Oliver it would be game over for the other dog so its best for everyone if he has the option to wear a muzzle.


----------



## lloyddobler

View attachment Lloyd.pdf


So, I just got the thyroid results (see attachment above) from my vet via email and they are scaring the crap out of me. Lloyd's results came back irregular and indicate hyperthyroidism which she says is very rare in young dogs. She goes on to talk about the various potential causes and next steps. This makes me very upset and sad.

Hello Kelly:

Just touching base about Lloyd's thyroid test results- I have attached them to this email. I thought you would like a copy of the results. It will also help aid in our discussion. I am sending an email as there is a lot to discuss. Since the results are not clear cut and it is very rare to see low thyroid in young dogs, I did consult with an internist at Idexx laboratories and she agreed the results are a bit odd when combined with his case.

Results:
Free T4 is low- this would indicate hypothyroidism. Total T4 is low normal- we would expect it to be higher in a young dog, more like 3-4 ug/dL. TSH- low normal? This is typically high with hypothyroidism. 
TSH is Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. This hormone is produced in the pituitary gland in the brain and tells the thyroid gland when to produce thyroid hormone and when there is a enough (to stop production). So, when the body is not producing enough thyroid hormone, the TSH should be high- its levels get higher and higher because it keeps telling a non-functioning gland to produce something it cannot.
THAT SAID, the typical hypothyroidism we see in middle age and older dogs is due to a thyroiditis. This is an auto-immune disease where the body produces autoantibodies to the thyroid hormone. This is similar to hypothyroidism in people and in fact TSH is one of the main tests for hypothyroidism in people. Unfortunately no test is perfect, especially in the hormone world, and up to 30% of dogs may have hypothyroidism and a normal TSH.
But....
Hypothyroidism in a young dog is highly unlikely to be due to thyroiditis. This leaves us with a problem in the pituitary gland itself. That could explain a normal TSH- the pituitary gland is not functioning the way it should. Most of the time we do not know why it is not functioning- atrophy, ischemia due to trauma (loss of blood flow), or (incredibly unlikely in a young dog) a tumor. HOWEVER, young dogs with low thyroid hormones (due to a congenital reason) are what we call 'poor doers'. They are underdeveloped, poor haircoat, stunted, etc. This is why hypothyroidism was not a consideration for me at our first visit- Lloyd is one handsome man! I have seen congenital hypothyroidism once in a whippet and it was a 'poor doer'. I have also seen aggression in young adult and older dogs (due to thyroiditis) with low thyroid without having the other symptoms we see with the disease (chronic infections, poor haircoat, obesity, lethargy, etc.). 

This is a strange case to be sure- the internist agreed. Where do we go from here? Her recommendation, which is a good one, is to get a larger basic data base (labwork) with a complete blood count, chemistry (organ function) and urinalysis to asses overall health and any underlying disease. There is a condition called 'euthyroid sick' where a pet can have suppression of thyroid hormone due to illness. That means a thyroid level may read low, but not actually have hypothyroidism. Yep, I know Lloyd is not feeling poorly and it is absolutely most likely the panels will be completely normal, but if we are to consider starting Lloyd on a thyroid hormone supplement, we need the whole picture. Especially since this isn't clear cut. Why didn't we do this yesterday? Because if the thyroid results were completely normal, I wouldn't think it would be necessary. Unfortunately, we do need to draw more blood and obtain a urine sample from him. As yesterday, it is fine as a technician visit unless you wish to set up an appointment with me to discuss any of this. I of course will be contacting you with the results. I am out of the office the next couple of days, but back on Friday. These panels would be about $200 including the urinalysis.

Final note for completeness sake.. so, what is going on with the pituitary gland? The internist I spoke with mentioned that another piece of the diagnostic puzzle could be brain imaging, specifically an MRI. Do I think this is necessary? Probably not, but I would be doing you a disservice if I did not mention this as an option.

I hope I have not bored you too much. I just thought it was important to explain everything since this isn't a cut and dry situation. Also, I thought you might find it interesting.
I look forward to speaking with you soon.
Kind regards,
Dr. Carson


----------



## lloyddobler

I should also mention that the Free T4 was low and the TSH was low. These contradict each other as the TSH she mentions would normally be high with hyperthyroidism. I hope my boy doesn't have something seriously wrong with him. He comes from a long line of dogs that are healthy and live well into their teens.


----------



## Jessie'sGirl

Please don't panic. You haven't received a diagnosis yet. Your vet is just covering all the basics, which is good.


----------



## MommyMe

I'm a little (okay, very) late to the party as I just read thigh this whole thread (I have a 16 month old male who seems to finally be getting over his submissive piddling but will now ocassionally growl at other dogs during down time in obedience class - especially little ones). He is my first male and our first puppy in 17 years (other females joined the family as adults) so I'm kind of new to some of this.

I just wanted to take the the to really applaud all you have done to help Oliver have the best life possible. In reading your journey, I have really felt for you (and laughed at some of lighthearted moments) and all I can say is your boys are so lucky they have you as a mom. All dogs should be so lucky. I'm so glad that everyone seems to be doing well now! Kudos to you for all you have done to get to this point!


----------



## ashannon91

My dog, Trevor, didn't have any issues with aggression as a puppy, with the exception of one small incident with the neighbors pug approximately 1 year after I got him. I was sitting on the porch/ground next to Trevor when the pug approached us.. It turned a little tense/into a stand off once the dogs were face to face and Trevor knicked the pugs ear. I didn't put too much thought into it (I assumed it was an attempt to guard me or something since I was level/on the ground with both dogs and essentially blamed myself) and we had also never had issues with my roommate's dog, which was a yorkie, and any other of the neighbors dogs. This time last year I would take him to the dog park all the time and we didn't have any issues (Although I did try and keep my distance from him while we were there in case he did have any guarding issues). Incident #2 occurred on Thanksgiving last year (Yes- the vet bill was pretty $$$). I was at a friend's house with Trevor and their German Shepherd tried to take his toy and Trevor knicked her eyebrow right on the brow bone which ended up needing stitches. Incident #3 - he scuffled with a friend's goldendoodle but luckily nothing too serious happened ... You could imagine now that I have yet to be back to the dog park because I am terrified. I have a few friends who have dogs (dogs he met when he was younger) that he lovessss loves loves to play with- but the friend circle is small . He is so sweet with me, I can tell he truly loves me and other humans (he's all about getting pet) and I've never been scared he will be aggressive with me. Even when I yanked him out of the fight with the German Shepherd he didn't dare turn on me. It is sad though that I can't take him to as many places because I'm worried of what might happen.. but it also concerns me that I might be making the problem worse by not letting him interact with new dogs anymore? Any advice on whether or not trying to introduce him to new dogs is a good or bad idea? I don't want the aggression to escalate... Like I said.. he has a few dog pals he gets along with but pretty much any new dog worries him (and me). We did a training class about a year ago and they mentioned he is a very anxious pup (especially during storms) We also used to participate in doggy day care (they said he was shy initially but would warm up to the other dogs).. but now I am too scared to bring him.


----------



## ashannon91

Are most dogs with a thyroid problem overweight or is there a chance they could have a thyroid issue but present other symptoms and not be considered overweight?


----------



## tippykayak

ashannon91 said:


> Are most dogs with a thyroid problem overweight or is there a chance they could have a thyroid issue but present other symptoms and not be considered overweight?


There are plenty of dogs with thyroid problems who are not overweight. While it is a common symptom, it is not automatic. If a dog is regular weight, that's not proof that the thyroid is fine.


----------



## coaraujo

ashannon91 said:


> Are most dogs with a thyroid problem overweight or is there a chance they could have a thyroid issue but present other symptoms and not be considered overweight?


Both my boys are lean and muscular and are hypothyroid. Im also thin and hypothyroid. Sometimes its a symptom sometimes its not. 

Im very sorry to hear about Trevor. Its very common for dogs who are afraid or anxious to act our aggressively, especially once they've learned it gives them a desired response. Be careful to not put him in situations where he'll practice aggressive behavior because it only compounds from there. Dont be afraid of dog classes. With the right trai er they can be great. Sometimes it just takes some time to find the right fit. Its just as important for Trevor to have positive experiences as it is for him to not have negative ones. Dont forget about yourself either. Its not easy having an aggressive dog. Ups and downs! 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lhowemt

How is Olivet doing? I hope all is going well.


----------



## coaraujo

lhowemt said:


> How is Olivet doing? I hope all is going well.


Oliver is doing well! We just had our 3 year check up and we're in good health . His anxiety is pretty severe, but we do the best we can to make him comfortable. He doesn't interact with other dogs besides Bernie, but that's all he needs to be happy. They both still need to be managed because Oliver definitely has gaurding issues. I'm hoping once I get a little more time we can start training classes up again. I'd like to have Oliver in more situations where he sees other dogs out and about and has rewarding experiences. I know we won't ever be able to do normal dog-owner things because of the risk of another dog running into us (like going for hikes/play in the park/etc). It would be ideal that in a few years we can get a larger property so him and Bernie will have some more space to run.


----------



## ashannon91

coaraujo said:


> ashannon91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are most dogs with a thyroid problem overweight or is there a chance they could have a thyroid issue but present other symptoms and not be considered overweight?
> 
> 
> 
> Both my boys are lean and muscular and are hypothyroid. Im also thin and hypothyroid. Sometimes its a symptom sometimes its not.
> 
> Im very sorry to hear about Trevor. Its very common for dogs who are afraid or anxious to act our aggressively, especially once they've learned it gives them a desired response. Be careful to not put him in situations where he'll practice aggressive behavior because it only compounds from there. Dont be afraid of dog classes. With the right trai er they can be great. Sometimes it just takes some time to find the right fit. Its just as important for Trevor to have positive experiences as it is for him to not have negative ones. Dont forget about yourself either. Its not easy having an aggressive dog. Ups and downs!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App
Click to expand...


The last year has been a little disheartening as I've realized Trevor is not going to be the most friendly dog. He doesn't 'attack' but he's in a place where he pretty much ignores other dogs if possible and he'll react if they approach him too quickly.. It's very confusing to me though how he can love a few of my friend's dogs and even grow up/live with other dogs ..but then growl at the sight of new dogs..even puppies  It has, however, taught me to see a different side of the "dog world". I try to bring Trevor places, like the park, for a walk occasionally.. I'm sure you've experienced the adrenaline filled terror when you see a dog (big or small) off leash, running towards you. I've had to haul Trevor up over my shoulder for fear that he'd bite the other dog. I now try to emphasize to my friends that- even if your dog is "friendly/awesome/not a runner" ..
your dog isn't the only one you should be concerned about. We are visiting the vet tomorrow and definitely plan on discussing some of Trevor's issues but I know medicine is not a cure all. It's nice to hear from someone who understands/can relate to what I'm going through so I appreciate your feedback! Hope you and your boys are doing well!


----------



## coaraujo

ashannon91 said:


> The last year has been a little disheartening as I've realized Trevor is not going to be the most friendly dog. He doesn't 'attack' but he's in a place where he pretty much ignores other dogs if possible and he'll react if they approach him too quickly.. It's very confusing to me though how he can love a few of my friend's dogs and even grow up/live with other dogs ..but then growl at the sight of new dogs..even puppies  It has, however, taught me to see a different side of the "dog world". I try to bring Trevor places, like the park, for a walk occasionally.. I'm sure you've experienced the adrenaline filled terror when you see a dog (big or small) off leash, running towards you. I've had to haul Trevor up over my shoulder for fear that he'd bite the other dog. I now try to emphasize to my friends that- even if your dog is "friendly/awesome/not a runner" ..
> your dog isn't the only one you should be concerned about. We are visiting the vet tomorrow and definitely plan on discussing some of Trevor's issues but I know medicine is not a cure all. It's nice to hear from someone who understands/can relate to what I'm going through so I appreciate your feedback! Hope you and your boys are doing well!


We found out pretty quickly how severe Oliver's aggression was after he almost killed my stepmother's dog. And like you said, people's dogs run up to you off leash all the time. Its extremely frustrating. Oliver is fine when dogs are a good a distance away. He's actually less reactive than Bernie. But he turns vicious as soon as they approach and he'll attack them. If people followed leash laws we could easily go for hikes and enjoy the outdoors. But you just never know. That's why I trained him on a basket muzzle. We still don't go out really because I don't want to put him in that anxiety-filled situation where an off-leash dog is running up to him scaring him half to death, and then his only way of protecting himself has been taken away from him. At our yearly check-up our vet dicussed the possibility of upping Oliver's prozac dose. We noticed when we went on vacation he chewed on his wrists so much that they got little hotspot/sores on them. He chews on them every so often (even when we're around). I was never really sure why and our vet said if its high up on the paw its similar to how a human anxiously chews on their knuckles. So if he is doing it on a regular basis his prozac dose might not be enough. It's hard because life throws things at your randomly. We never know when our neighbors are going to have dogs over to play with their dog, and when they do all of a sudden it's a mad dash outside to get Oliver before he tries to attack them through the fence. Or a long drawn out wait for them to put the dogs inside so we can finally let the boys out to pee. It's not easy, and it's never going to be. But you learn to manage it and you start to understand it better. I think it's really important to accept that your dog has a serious issue. I know some people in my family have trouble seeing past the cute loveable furball that Oliver is at home. And he is, love him to death, but he also has severe anxiety that causes him to be extremely aggressive. There are a lot of training measures you can take with anxious dogs. I would recommend reading up on those and coming up with a training program that works for you and Trevor. The prozac has helped, but it hasn't made it go away. I think that training is really where you will see more results. Unfortunately we are currently in a bit of a lull right now in our training so we are in a 'management' stage where we just make sure he is a happy dog with Bernie at home and don't do much outside of that. But you can definitely move beyond the front door and into classes, etc as your training progresses.

Patricia McConnell has alot of helpful information 
Barking & growling, signs that trouble is brewing | Trisha McConnell | McConnell Publishing Inc.


----------



## lhowemt

I am so glad to hear you are all doing well and have settled into a routine. You worked so hard with him and it must be "nice" to be at a point of mostly management. It is so great you have this thread and are helping others.


----------



## mylissyk

I know this is a very old thread, I'm not sure why it popped up again, but I just wanted to say you are an amazing dog owner and all the work and effort you have gone to, to help Oliver and Bernie is inspiring. Thanks for sharing it with the board.

I hope all is well with your pups and you.


----------

