# Using your dogs kibble for training



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

I've always preferred using kibble to treats, even in my time with Canine Assistants. Everyone else used treats, and I just portioned out part of my foster dog's kibble. I had the same results, and a dog more driven to work for his meal, not one that was already full from eating his meal!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

If the dog finds kibble sufficiently rewarding, this is an awesome idea. I like to keep the variety up, so even if I had a dog who was crazy for kibble, I'd probably still mix other things in, just like I mix in non-food rewards as much as possible too.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

We do the same. Depending how much kibble she gets with training we decrease the amount at mealtime.


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

I have heard so much controversy about this! Some people have told me that I have made my dog aggressive because we never give him food in a bowl . . .we use it for training, rewarding calm behaviors, and also give food daily (more than once) in Kongs and puzzles. Never a simple bowl because (a) he would be bored the rest of the day and (b)I think he'd get bloat, no joke. I ALWAYS make sure he gets x amount by a certain time, though.

Does it make a dog have more "drive," though, if done early on? My breeder says yes, that I have contributed to what is going on with my pup.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Anele said:


> I have heard so much controversy about this! Some people have told me that I have made my dog aggressive because we never give him food in a bowl . . .we use it for training, rewarding calm behaviors, and also give food daily (more than once) in Kongs and puzzles. Never a simple bowl because (a) he would be bored the rest of the day and (b)I think he'd get bloat, no joke. I ALWAYS make sure he gets x amount by a certain time, though.
> 
> Does it make a dog have more "drive," though, if done early on? My breeder says yes, that I have contributed to what is going on with my pup.



Though I do agree that using (part) of a dog's meal to teach and reinforce behaviors that we like, meting out every meal over the course of a day, leaves a dog perpetually hungry, stressed/anxious, in 'survival mode', inhibiting their ability to think/learn or even rest completely. It is natural animal behavior to eat until they are full, and for many animals to rest after they eat, and to seek out a full meal when they are hungry again. Consider that we have 'meals', eat until we are full on a regular basis, and so should our dogs, especially a growing puppy.
Using a dog's meal for a 'training session' over a short period of time will, in the end, leave the dog feeling 'full', satiated, but to mete it out piece by piece on a daily basis, leaves a dog 'hungry' all the time, and yes, can cause/contribute to behavior issues, due to the ongoing stress of not having the instinctive need for a full belly met.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I personally never use my dog's daily core nutrition (ie; meals) for training. I feel their nutritional needs are my responsibility and part of our agreement when they come into my home. Food, shelter, medical attention, love & training are what I consider their basic needs.

However, they do get plenty of wholesome treats while training - meats, cheeses etc. 

ETA: As Megora mentioned, my dogs do have to sit before their meals.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Charliethree said:


> Though I do agree that using (part) of a dog's meal to teach and reinforce behaviors that we like, meting out every meal over the course of a day, leaves a dog perpetually hungry, stressed/anxious, in 'survival mode', inhibiting their ability to think/learn or even rest completely. It is natural animal behavior to eat until they are full, and for many animals to rest after they eat, and to seek out a full meal when they are hungry again. Consider that we have 'meals', eat until we are full on a regular basis, and so should our dogs, especially a growing puppy.


What evidence do you have to support these statements? They sound logical and like they could be true - but it is important that we are sure we aren't just going off of what 'feels' right.

In the original article linked, there is a mention of 'contrafreeloading' - a concept where animals (many species by multiple researchers) appear to prefer working for their food than being freely given food. There are many, many follow up studies to look at this - under which circumstances it does and does not happen.

- How do we measure if a dog is hungry? How could we test if training throughout the day would make a dog more/less hungry than 1, 2, 3 set meals? 
- How do we measure anxiety? Body language? Cortisol levels (blood, saliva, urine?)
- Is it natural for an animal to eat until they are full? How does this change based off of species, predator vs prey, lower calorie food (grass, seeds) vs higher calorie content foods? 

Maybe some of these things have been formally done? I don't know. I don't necessarily expect anyone here to have thought it out and/or run these experiments! 

With one of my dogs I did an informal study of feeding meals via training vs meals - and looking at his behavior on a scale of 1-5, excitability, how hard he took treats/food out of my hands, and some other things. I didn't really notice too many changes - some of it was hard to tell if it was less time interacting with meal feeding vs training feeding and/or time allocation - if I spent the time interacting y walking/playing ball vs the food traning time and how those are more energy expending activities and playing ball was more arousal creating etc. 

"Dog Food Logic" is a good book that talks a lot about how we think about food and how so much of the issues around how and what to feed pets is emotional driven vs. data driven. We know quite a bit about dietary needs of dogs - but there is also a lot that we really just don't know.

I dont really care how my training clients feed their dogs for the most part. Some exceptions: situations where we need to make a lot of progress rapidly (we move to super delicious dog food products and use every calorie/meal for training), very small breed dogs (can't feed them much anyways!), and dogs who are poor eaters (working for food can increase interest in food). 

It seems we don't know for sure what is "best" but also that we would have to define what a "best" feeding practice would be - and that's very subjective!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm not sure I believe for a minute that never feeding regular meals and making the dog work throughout the day to earn his kibble in bits and pieces causes aggression.... I just don't. I think dogs become aggressive through nature and nurture. Meaning that a dog has to be wired a certain way.... but they also start sassing their owners and learning what works to get their owners to back off. A lot of the times this might be families with kids where the kids are harassing the dogs. The dogs growl or snap to get the kids to back off - it works, behavior reinforced.

Never feeding a regular meal.... to me, that disrupts regular feeding patterns for the dogs - which overall is one way you can tell if a dog is not feeling well (if they are off their food a little and not finishing their meals). 

My guys work for their meals - but that's more along the lines of doing SOMETHING before I put their food bowls down. Usually they spin, drop, sit up, or something like that before their food. If I'm prepping for trials - they may do full length stays before eating their dinner. But they get 1 cup of food 2x a day in bowls that are put down in front of them. 

Actual training sessions - I use whatever works. You don't need to use a lot of food to train dogs at home. Because there is low distraction and generally it's you picking the times to train vs having to go somewhere and train at a set time. Meaning, that if you see your dog is paying attention, needy, or in training mode - you can start training right then because the dog is more likely than not to really excel in that training session. As opposed to training at a time when the dog is blowing you off. 

Something that some people I know do (and I used to train with somebody who really recommended this), if they feed 3 cups of food to their dogs, they generally feed 1 cup of food 2x a day, and spread the third cup throughout the day while training. This is a lot better than not feeding regular meals.... 

In classes, I've seen people using kibble with their dogs and generally speaking it worked for some, but not for all. You did have dogs blowing off kibble and their owners because somebody else in the class brought freshly cooked chicken. In which case, the owners should acknowledge they have to bump up the value of the treats they are using away from home.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

Megora said:


> In classes, I've seen people using kibble with their dogs and generally speaking it worked for some, but not for all. You did have dogs blowing off kibble and their owners because somebody else in the class brought freshly cooked chicken. In which case, the owners should acknowledge they have to bump up the value of the treats they are using away from home.


I will admit that I ban kibble, cheerios and fruits/vegetables in beginning level classes.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

Chloe always gets her meals in a bowl. But if we have used some kibble for training we may decrease the amount of food in her bowl at dinner time.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The blog suggests the dog working for every single piece of kibble. I cannot fathom rewarding my dog with food that many separate times a day, every day.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Jodie - my first thought was the advice was for somebody with a whole lot more free time in their day than I have.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Lets say you feed your dog 3 cups of food. Would feeding it 2 cups, 2x a day and spliting the third cup over the course of a day be a better solution? As compared to feeding the dog 3 cups 2x or spreading the 3 cups throughout the day.

Also, this might sound like a stupid question, bare with me, I don't own a golden just yet. But if you use treats to train your dog, is there a chance you could overfeed the dog, causing him to be overweight? Though I do understand food isn't the only way to praise a dog.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Giving too many treats can be an issue. We have not had a problem with training treats because they are usually small and not high in calories. Usually only 5 calories or so each. However, we used to have a cookie jar on the counter filled with Kirkland (Costco) dog biscuits. Max used to come inside and routinely ask for one. He would get 6 or 7 per day. Turned out the biscuits were 120 calories each. We had to put him on a diet and he lost 22 pounds. The Kirkland biscuits are gone now. Now, he gets one or two small Blue Buffalo Salmon biscuits as treats per day. Total about 15-30 calories.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

When I have a young dog that's in a learning stage for a lot of things and I'm needing LOTS of repetitions I'll measure out their food and grab some handfuls of it until I'm done training. But even then I don't think I've ever ended up using more than 1/2 cup of food max. I just can't imagine getting a significant portion of my dog's meal to him as training rewards if I'm doling it out one piece of kibble at a time. Especially if we're not in the initial learning stages of something.

Don't get me wrong, I'll frequently grab a few pieces of kibble if I want to work on something in the living room, but it's such a small amount I don't even bother taking it out of their daily "ration."


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## Anele (Dec 12, 2014)

First of all, my dog is absolutely not deprived of food. He could probably even lose some weight!

In my case, I had tons of management issues to contend with in the early days-- children, cats, and a dog who really enjoyed jumping and nipping-- and no other resident dog to play with. Young children take things to a whole, new level! We have issues in my house that many do not face, given both my household AND what my dog is like.

IF we wanted to pet the dog-- who did _not_ like to be pet-- guess what? We had to pair it with food. IF I wanted to take him out on a walk with a focus on me-- guess what? FOOD! IF I wanted him to enjoy his crate-- guess what? We had to use FOOD! IF I wanted him to learn basic commands, and then build the duration and distraction-- guess what? FOOD was the answer! IF I wanted my dog to learn impulse control-- guess what? FOOD was needed! IF I wanted him to learn to be calm-- then I used FOOD. IF I wanted him to have an activity to keep him busy-- then I needed FOOD. Be OK with loud noises? FOOD! Not chase the cat? FOOD! The list goes on and on about what my dog had to learn!

In the early days, I used what the breeder suggested. The kibble size was very large and my dog didn't need tons of food, so we had so very little precious kibble to work with. Again-- I always made sure he got his "meal" within a certain period of time. It was super easy to go through the kibble and I always wanted/needed more. I did always reserve some for a treat ball or other toy twice a day, so that he would have a lot fast, but not as fast as from a bowl. (He would inhale it from a bowl-- I really struggle to see the value in allowing my dog to do this.) Very different from my last dog who did not care about food at all!

I finally switched to a different, smaller kibble, and now we have MUCH more to work with. Nowadays, I can fill the puzzles with much more food because the kibble is so much smaller, AND we have done a lot of training in the initial stages-- so not needed as much. Also-- no one says you HAVE to give just one bit of kibble each time. That would be boring for both you AND the dog. Better to mix it up. 

Anyway, while we do have this issue with arousal biting on walks, the more I research, the more I am finding that it is NOT a completely uncommon issue (and surely, most people aren't doing all the handfeeding we do), and in our case, has been managed by simply not giving him long walks. BUT, we do have a puppy who, at almost 6 months, now:

-Enjoys being pet more and more
-Gives me eye contact on walks
-Loves his crate
-Is in the process of building an excellent foundation in obedience basics
-Is increasing his impulse control
-Can lie calmly on his mat even in our busy household
-Has NO resource guarding issues whatsoever
-Takes treats gently
-Keeps his paws on the ground when we enter the room AND when we are holding food inside (arousal biting is different!)
-Rarely mouths us

Now, of course, others could have done it differently, but when I look at all of the challenges that we faced (esp. with me as a very inexperienced person)-- and overcame-- then I have more confidence that this has worked.


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## lloyddobler (Nov 30, 2014)

Anele, what kind of food are you using for kibble? I'm still giving my pup purina pro plan focus for large breed puppies based on my breeders recommendation. He loved it for the first few months and it was all I needed for his training. Now he's bored with it an will actually spit it out if I attempt to sneak some in while we are training. He's s little stinker and too smart for his own good sometimes! I may try gradually switching in the hope to find something he's more interested in and can use for training.


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

lloyddobler said:


> Anele, what kind of food are you using for kibble? I'm still giving my pup purina pro plan focus for large breed puppies based on my breeders recommendation. He loved it for the first few months and it was all I needed for his training. Now he's bored with it an will actually spit it out if I attempt to sneak some in while we are training. He's s little stinker and too smart for his own good sometimes! I may try gradually switching in the hope to find something he's more interested in and can use for training.


We have these bite size treats by nutro. You may want to try them. They have a bunch of flavors including banana, blueberry, carrot, and a apple one. They have real fruit or veggies in them. There isn't any junk in the ingredients. Chloe had the peanut butter ones and now likes the blueberry. They are crunchy and small and perfect for training.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Tossing dry kibble to a puppy is dangerous. I know of two personally that have inhaled it and died. I use kibble for training but have the dog take it from my hand. Both of the puppies I know of who inhaled (and they were two totally diff pedigrees with no swallowing problems prior to the incidents) were between 4-6 months old, maybe the tendency to aspirate goes away later in life. Just wanted to put that out there, in case anyone is tossing.


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