# Do I start over again



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Can you post video?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can try. He has always had a very loose hold. Plus, he has a very wet mouth and the bumpers get real slick and slide all around in his mouth which when coupled with his loose hold equates to sloppy holds. In training, he is MUCH better with birds, obviously, however during tests, he is very naughty and _that_ is a training thing. Also this is what is making me think there is a hole in his FF.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

I would do ear pinch to reach for it and then to ground when that happens, with resistance. I would catch him as soon as it appears even in a middle of a mark. If he is loose in training he will be looser in the test that's where you are seeing him loose with birds also. It's not that uncommon.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

So, if I'm reading your post correctly...Ear pinch for while he is at my side, and I offer the bumper to him? Then, EP with bumper on the ground? Finally, hold him back and EP to a bumper on the ground?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You need to get with a pro or experienced amateur to diagnose and treat this. Short answer is yes you need to back up and review FF and personally I would get it morphed to collar fetch in short order so you can correct the dog remotely.
Even well-FF'd dogs slide if they are allowed to practice bad behaviors. For example, setting the bird down after they come in for a water retrieve, to reposition the bird or shake off. Pretty innocent to start with and a lot of handlers might not think anything of it. Then it turns into the dog doing this on EVERY water retrieve, wasting time, dilly-dallying over the bird, having to be told to fetch/hold/here, finally turning into the dog who stops 3 feet from the shore, plays with the bird in the water, won't come in and leaves the bird in the water. Congratulations you've successfully destroyed FF. 
Bird handling is something you need to keep VERY high standards on. 
For example, if I send Slater on a water retrieve where the bird is floating when he gets to it (as opposed to landing on solid ground) he will grab it just loosely by the wing or feathers. Since it floats he basically pushes it back while he swims. Of course when he gets out of the water on the way back he cannot carry it over land like this so he would drop it, reposition and pick it up better. Yeah, that worked when you were a puppy but it's not MY JOB to tell you or hope that you'll quit doing that. If he lets go of the bird coming out of the water he gets a "here-nick-here" correction. It's HIS JOB to hold the bird better, not my job to babysit it. It has improved immensely. Getting corrected THERE led to him grabbing the bird better initially. I know how quickly bird handling issues can develop especially around the water and essentially he gets corrected EVERY time he drops the bird. 
With a dog like Dooley who has been allowed to be really sloppy (and BTW -- saying he has a loose hold and wet mouth and blah blah blah -- that is an excuse -- it is HIS JOB to hold the bird firmly, not your job to accept poor handling because of it) -- anyways with a dog that has formed consistent bad habits it's unfair to suddenly crack down and start correcting for everything. You need to go back and teach what is right and teach the corrections for what is wrong. For this I think it'd be appropriate to return to your pro or find another experienced person. But they need to teach YOU what to do, not the dog. Because it's you that is handling the dog, you need to be prepared to teach and correct when you're by yourself.
It can be done. You can do it. This is one of those building block steps in field training that if you thoroughly understand teaching and training it, will make the rest of your advanced training make a lot more sense.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Hard to hear, but totally correct! Thanks for the reality check Anney.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Yes, that is the first thing I would do because if he does it again and drops the bird I will meet him out there and we will do it right there and he will pick up that bumper off the ground with me on his ear. He has been through FF he is testing the rules. And since I have done it by my side he dang sure knows the rules.
Not everything is handled with the collar and the Here nick Here needs to dealt with hands on when the dog gets back in. That's being lazy also. Frankly I wouldn't do the collar thing it's not a direct enough approach and* any pro or experienced amateur knows you don't fix problems in the water you do it on land.*


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Talk to your pro first since he is the one who has done the FF. Maybe arrange a time to meet him when he is out training and just show him what is going on. I think Dave will take a few minutes to work with you and Mr Dooley.

I tried to e-mail you a few weeks ago to congrats you on Dooleys JH. Hope all is well.
Randy


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> Dooley has been FF by a pro. Yet, he is getting sloppy with his bird/bumper handling. I do correct for this, but is this a case where I go back and start FF over again? Or is this more of a hold issue, in which case I need to do something else? Thoughts, suggestions???


Every aspect of training will need maintenance. You don't have to do anything over that was done right in the first place. Whether or not your dog's FF was done correctly is something you must come to grips with.

Is the dog e-collar conditioned?

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

EvanG said:


> Is the dog e-collar conditioned?
> 
> EvanG


Yes, he has been collar conditioned.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Laura I am by far an expert. However I have watched the hubby for the past year with his dog (wanted to get involved :uhoh and now training Gabby I have seen a little of what you are talking about. 

Quinn my hubby's dog I KNOW has holes in her FF. DH is working on that, but not as diligently as "I" would like him to. Quinn always, comes back to heel, drops the bird or bumper then picks it back up. I tell him he needs to correct her for that, it is unacceptable. But he does not listen. 

Gabby has a loose hold. She had a really hard time holding a bird. My trainer suggested when I am working her on FF and hold to apply pressure to the bumper on both sides and if she drops it correct her. So I have, and she has gotten better. We started stick and collar fetch with Gabby the past couple weeks. (Quinn has not done this I don't believe) Gabby gets it. She is lunging for the bumper when the word 'fetch' is said. She is releasing the pressure almost before it is applied. However when she does drop, and she isn't very often, I apply a nick and "fetch" and she snatches up the bird or bumper. She does not make that mistake again.

Just my opinion again not worth much : but make sure you haven't "allowed" small mistakes that were insignificant at the time, that now are bigger problems. Take a step back analyze and fix. I know in horses we were always re training something. I can see that with the dogs too.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Ann. Yah, I know I am the hole in the training. Just as you touched on , I let the small mistakes happen with no correction. When I worked with Doo last night, needless to say, I was much more critical on his delivery and handling of the bumper. 

Maybe instead of starting over, just take a couple steps back (well maybe a couple hundred) and work on compliance.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> Yes, he has been collar conditioned.


Then use your tools. Do some Walking Fetch, and Force to pile; forcing with the e-collar (nicks). Create opportunities as subtly as possible. 

I'm not talking about blantantly knocking the bumper out of the dog's mouth. But I am talking about reading the dog in the moment, and looking for times when the hold is sloppy enough that you can walk by structure and allow the structure to dislodge the fetch object - forcing instantly on it. I guess I'm going to have to create a video clip of this because it's immensely beneficial, and usually takes little time to help.

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Evan! I would love to see your video when you complete it! I'm sure it will be helpful to a lot of people.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> Thanks Ann. Yah, I know I am the hole in the training. Just as you touched on , I let the small mistakes happen with no correction. When I worked with Doo last night, needless to say, I was much more critical on his delivery and handling of the bumper.
> 
> Maybe instead of starting over, just take a couple steps back (well maybe a couple hundred) and work on compliance.


I think from my experience in horses, that is what happens. We just settle for 'good enough' not (as my trainer puts it) brilliance. Unless it is a bad training day, get the work to the best level. On a bad day... settle for good enough.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

one of the things we did with Tito was set him up in situations where we knew he would want to drop the bumper. Things like very hot and panting, then heeling around the yard holding the bumper. That kind of stuff. Then correcting him for not holding it.
They *all* hold it when THEY want to. So we get them to NOT want to, in order to *explain* to them that it's not an optional command.
At least, that's how we did it. My first dog, so take with a pound of salt.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> I think from my experience in horses, that is what happens. We just settle for 'good enough' not (as my trainer puts it) brilliance. Unless it is a bad training day, get the work to the best level. On a bad day... settle for good enough.


I read somewhere else, in relation to retriever training, that 

*"A half-truth is a whole lie"*

Man I catch myself with this about every day in training!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> *They *all* hold it when THEY want to.* So we get them to NOT want to, in order to *explain* to them that it's not an optional command.


That is a significant point, and it relates to all skills and functions. They can do all of them...when they want to. Our job is not just to teach them what to do, but also to condition them to _"want to"._

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for the input everyone. As we have completed the Junior title, and on to Senior, I am going to be very cognizant of *half truths*! We will continue on but mouth habits are going to work in our everyday training regiment. I'm sure I will come to you all with questions, as I know I can get both the hard truth and support I need. We'll, I mean, I'll get it....Eventually.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

The following advice is given under the heading "take it or leave it", of course. But it's based on over 35 years of experience.

Before you start running Senior, your dog should be doing well on Master level work in his daily training. In other words, prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he is normally called upon to do under whelms him, not overwhelms him.

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Evan, and I think I'll "take it". I have always loved that thought, I've seen you share it before on other forums. It's just hard (on me) to be patient, but that is what needs to be done.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Laura, I am nowhere NEAR senior, heck I am still struggling with junior but from what I read, the step is HUGE!!! I know Barb has her frustrations as she progresses, and I am constantly reminding her that she has not been at this that long. She was not training until after Tito got his CH last June. And she does not go south for training in the winter. Patience is key, oh I get how hard it is, heck I wanted to run Gabby in started last May. Now I wait until Aug. Enjoy the journey, the training is really the best part, the actual test is just a flash in the pan in comparison. I have complete faith, you (and Barb) will be running SH with passes. Just dot those "i's" and cross the "t's". 

And remember.... I will be next. LOL So I will be bugging all you before me. :


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think that's about the best advice given, ever.




Maxs Mom said:


> Enjoy the journey, the training is really the best part, the actual test is just a flash in the pan in comparison.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Ann! I need cheer-leading right now. I'm having feelings of inadequacy lately. Brandy was so easy and was almost ready for Senior when she develped seizures. I didn't want to take a chance with water work, just in case. Dooley has been a challenge. We'll get it though.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

What I keep telling myself is what I have seen before. They don't necessarily progress in ways that will tell you that you are doing the right thing although you might get bits and pieces. Then BANG one day the pieces come together. Patience is a virtue.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You'll get there, you really will. We all will. We're all training different dogs, and they all learn things differently. There have been some things that *should* have been easy, that Tito just doesn't seem to get, or maybe doesn't want to get. There have been other things that *should* have been very hard, and Tito gets them right away. I'm sure it's the same with Dooley if you stop and think about it. 
As I said in another thread, a well known idea from Bridget Carlson is to stop and think of 3 things that he did/does really well every time you feel he didn't do something the way you wanted him to. Even if they're small things, make a mental list of them. It really does make you feel better!





DNL2448 said:


> Thanks Ann! I need cheer-leading right now. I'm having feelings of inadequacy lately. Brandy was so easy and was almost ready for Senior when she develped seizures. I didn't want to take a chance with water work, just in case. Dooley has been a challenge. We'll get it though.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Barb, you are so right! Dooley has done so much and I love him dearly, we just have to overcome his stubborn tendencies on a few things. And *I* need to become more consistant, as I'm not being fair to him, jumping around. What I need is a school type lesson plan or just sit down in front of my DVD player and watch my training DVDs again and put one together. I wish I had more people to train with, but those I know train early in the morning and I have to work. Dang work, I need to win the lottery!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Dang work, I need to win the lottery!


Me too please or retire! LOL

Maybe it will help to try and remember where you were last year at this time.

Last yeat we were still working on FF. So we have moved forward. Also, after running a boat load of singles last fall/winter, the girl can mark. Slowly,slowly,slowly, we are getting there......I think.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I can't retire for another 30 years!

Last year this time, we were looking for a house to buy. We now have our house and I LOVE IT! Oh, you mean on the dog training front...Yes, we are still working on that, though Doo has his first title...so I guess that's something good.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> I can't retire for another 30 years!
> 
> Last year this time, we were looking for a house to buy. We now have our house and I LOVE IT! Oh, you mean on the dog training front...Yes, we are still working on that, though Doo has his first title...so I guess that's something good.


Look how well you are doing. New House and New Title! You have come so far in just a year.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh I know just the thing.....every week you will from now on be expected to post a training plan for the week, with what drills etc. you plan to run each day, what you hope to accomplish, etc. We will stay on top of you!!!
A forum friend and I have been doing that by email, and believe me, it makes a BIG difference. Oops, forgot to email her my plan for this week


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Hold on, didn't you have a litter of pups too? Amazing how much you have accomplished this year.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

You guys ROCK! Okay, I need to put together a training plan this weekend. I have to sit down with my DVDs and training manuals! 

Hollyk...Yes, I did have a litter and do have a new pup to train as well. I'll include him and his mom in my above mentioned training plan.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Umm, I confess I have training plans for obedience and training plans for agility but not for hunt training. Guess I could use a kick start in that direction


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Perhaps we should put a sub thread for training plans and we can start threads under each dogs name?


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Mines already started I will work on it and post it by Sunday nite. I made a web page for Gunner through Google and have a calendar on it that I put his training on. Easy to do because as soon as log on the internet the calendar is on my Home Page and shows up on his page.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I want to train with ALL of you guys too!!! Not trying to hijack, but it's just hubby and me... blind leading the blind. Yes we do have experienced people we check in with, but as far as throwing marks etc. One of us has to crate their dog, then we have to get where they want the marks, do the work, switch handlers and dog and do it again. We don't know how to set up "scenarios". Not that we need much at our level, but even to prepare for JH we are pretty clueless. I think I know more than hubby because I read the threads here, and on RTF. 

Also we live in the city. We can't get to the training grounds but once a week at the most, as it is over an hour away. We are going to make a huge effort to get there on Thursdays when hubby is out of work, but that would be 6pm or later by the time we get there. No one will be there to possibly beg for help from. We do live near a school built on a 20 acre park. We can throw distance marks (short grass) 100 yards or more. If no organized sports are going on. And if no annoying dogs are around. Usually the sports are the only thing we have to contend with. There is another park that is 'rustic' (they don't mow) so we can get creative with stuff there too. It's not the same though. 

Being off work I was so hoping I could get in a training group. :no: I figured Art and Quinn would benefit too. 

I too want to win the lotto so I can play with my dogs! 

I like the idea of the sub thread about weekly training plans. Barb and I started doing it but the more people involved, the more we all become accountable. And there can be help for training ideas for us snow bound people in the winter.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

How do we go about getting one? Moderators or Admin? I think its a good idea as we can check out others successes and use their ideas, also we can help when there is a challenge. Plus for dogs in the same level of training, we could work together on set ups and drills!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think that's a fantastic idea to have a training plan thread! It's amazing how much being accountable to Maxs Mom has helped me get out there, even if for just a few minutes a day.
Today----we WILL go out and work on 3 handed casting, no mistakes allowed. He's having a serious attention problem with this drill. When we do it in the "obedience yard" he makes all kinds of mistakes. As soon as I move to somewhere different, he's 100%. So we have to fix this, because it indicates he truly knows the concepts, on HIS time.


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