# Denzils Goldens in North Central Washington



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I did a quick search on OFFA.org using the kennel name denzil - they have eight dogs with their hips done.....but there are soooooo many missing clearances.

They know that elbow clearances should be done as evidenced by the fact that they have Ryder's elbow clearance, but for some reason did not spend the time/money to get the elbows cleared on the six bitches and one other dog listed under their kennel name... or perhaps they did not clear and they requested that OFA did not publish the results??????

CARDIAC
No cardiac clearances are listed on OFA for any of the dogs listed in the OFA database. They could have had them done and chosen not to spend the $12.00 not sent them in to be recorded in the public database. So you would need to call and ask that they email you copies of the clearances. A cardiac clearance is a 'once and done' clearance. If the dog passes, why not send in the information to the database? It is cheap, easy to do and supports ongoing research! Plus if you lose the paperwork you have evidence that it was done!

EYES
I checked the CERF database to see if there were any eye clearances....
NONE on the dogs listed on the OFFA database.
It is possible that their dogs were examined and they did not send in the tests to be recorded in the public database. It is NOT A CLEARANCE until you have been assigned a clearance number....

After all this.....
AND
The marketing of "English Cream"
AND
No mention of anything publicly verifiable that they 'do' with their dogs (not Canine Good Citizen titles, hunting titles, agility, obedience tracking, Therapy Dog visits etc etc etc)

This is just my opinion, but I would pass......too many holes....and too many other breeders that are doing a better job at being transparent.


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## emjbar (Sep 5, 2013)

Wow...thank you so much for doing all of that for me! I will ask about the clearances but it seems like even if he can provide them it would still be a wary situation? I am reading that right? Thank you sooo much for taking the time to look into it all for me. I was wondering about the english cream as I saw an article as one of the stickies but did not really think about it too much. What can I say? I got puppy fever! But all the more reason to wait and find the right breeder!


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## denzilsgoldens (Mar 21, 2018)

Hi there! We are the owners/breeders of Denzil's Goldens! When you google search our kennel name this is one of the first things that pops up. I really cannot say totally accurately which dogs had what clearances in 2013 as we have made great strides to improve our breeding program since then. The other reason I cannot say that is because when you look on the OFA it is not completely always accurately updated, as many breeders know. For whatever reason, (and this is so frustrating) sometimes the OFA doesn't always post prelim health clearances, or randomly they will not link a result online for months and months, and then we will take a two dogs in to get clearances in on the same day and one dog's results will post extremely rapidly and one won't post forever. Anyways, ALL of our dogs have OFA hips and elbows, and many have Penn Hip clearances as we feel that is the gold standard. All of our dogs have OFA cardiac clearances (a few aren't posted on the OFA as they aren't certified unless they are 12mo, although they are done), as well as genetic testing for PRA 1/2, PRA-prcd, DM, and ICT. All of our dogs except two young females have OFA CERF clearances, which they are getting done this week. Multiple dogs have thyroid testing done, as well as patellas. Anyways, I just would like to post that our website is updated with our dog's health clearances, if you google our kennel name it is easily found, as well as all the links to k-9 data. It's disappointing to find such negative comments when our name is google searched, so I just wanted to respond to this now, although it is obviously many years later. Part of being a breeder is growing and improving, and we have worked hard to do so. Thanks for your time, please let me know if I can answer any questions for you.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

denzilsgoldens said:


> I really cannot say totally accurately which dogs had what clearances in 2013 as we have made great strides to improve our breeding program since then. )
> 
> *It is pretty easy- there is a date on OFA for when the study was done.
> 
> ...


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

OFA is the most accurate and reliable public verification database. It is not user entry and OFA confirms results, so yes it takes some time. Can they make an error and not list a certification, yes. But the instances that is the case are few and far between and easily remedied by contacting them. Most of the time people make this claim is because they don’t actually have the certification on the dog which is what your post indicates. Hearts examined before 12 months do not qualify for certification. Hips and Elbows done before 24 months are not eligible for certification. As robin has mentioned on preliminary study reports, OFA will make them visible on the database but only if the owner of the dog initials to disclose all results, including failures. Since these are not certifications, they should not be presented to the general puppy buying public as a clearance as that is misleading at best. 

It does look like you have made great strides and that is a good thing. It really does look like something lit a fire under you in October of last year. I hope you will take a few more steps to get to where you need to be on all of your dogs. Stop doing testing prior to the dates that would earn your dog the appropriate certification and please stop breeding dogs like Glory who have failed their certifications. Delve more deeply into the health of your dogs, learn about structure so that you can choose pairings that are based on more than just who isn’t related to someone else or color. 

Getting a mentor would be a fabulous idea. Join or at least get active with your local Golden or all breed club. That is a great way to learn, grow and perhaps find a mentor.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Well I had a friend interested in one of your litters a few years ago, so I looked up your site and looked at the litter in question. While I do not remember the sire I do remember the dam DENZILS GOLDEN OH MAYA https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1412709

On her page on your website unlike others you just listed her as health perfect no mention of OFA so I went and looked at OFA and she failed her hips MILD UNILATERAL LEFT. I know she had a least three litters of puppies *after you knew she had hip dysplasia * including the one my friend looked at. I spoke with someone who bought a puppy from one of those litters and she said she was lead to believe her puppy was cleared by parentage and he was sold with full papers so she went ahead and bred him. I can't say what you are doing now but you have mislead or outright lied to people who bought your puppies in the past and knowingly breed a dog that had HD. The woman who bought the male and was breeding it was beyond shocked to find her dogs Dam was dysplastic and she was provided no information on responsible breeding. I told her to look it up on OFA.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

Lets do someone more current Skye. DENZILS SKYE BLUE YONDER Her birthdate is April 2 2016 your site shows she only has prelims for OFA and has already been breed before she was even old enough to get her final clearances. She only has a PRACTITIONER heart clearance and not one done by a cardiologist as required by the parent club. No eye clearances are shown so if you did them you did not send them into OFA. So your breeding underage dogs with incomplete or no clearances. You do not show that you do anything with your dogs other then breed more puppies. You do not show in any venue Hunt, tracking, rally, obedience or confirmation. 


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1872962


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Here's my mantra: For the cost of ONE puppy, you can have clearances on the sire or the dam completed. ONE puppy. If you go to a health fair, often you can get BOTH sire and dam completed for the cost of ONE puppy. That's all it takes. Why oh why do you want avoid clearances and try to manipulate buyers? Today with the internet, it's easier to get checked up on than ever before. Again for the cost of ONE puppy, isn't it worth it to get those clearances done? Just ONE puppy....


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## denzilsgoldens (Mar 21, 2018)

My goal here is not to be argumentative, or see who knows the most about health testing which you clearly feel you do. We absolutely know the appropriate age parameters for each health clearance. I'm unclear what your point is regarding the OFA Cardiac Prelims? A few of our dogs have prelim certs, which means they were done before 12 months, and will be redone between 12-24 months of age. It's a good indicator that they didn't have any cardiac issues as they were growing, but just a "preliminary" report, not a "final" one. We took them in with our adult dogs at the same time. All our breeding dogs have passing, normal, final OFA Health Certs. Regarding our website.....We are honest, transparent and truthful. I just redid our whole site. I am not a website designer. I have 3 small kids. I acciddenly put Ryder's OFA as Excellent instead of Good, I looked at his prelim, instead of his finals. I apologize for the SMALL error. I feel in the scheme of things it's probably not a huge deal, as it's not a failing hip grade being passed off as excellent, but of course it is an error, I will fix today. All our customers are provided with copies of OFA health certs, showing accurate information. Regarding the OFA updating, I many times have experienced it not showing our results. It's my own fault I haven't always bugged them to publish the corrections, but it's a pain. I've always felt that if we provide customers with copies of the certs and fellow breeders it is no big deal, but I guess in situations like this, this is why. I am not here to debate back and forth but if you do multiple clearances, multiple times a year on multiple dogs you will find decrepiancies on how the OFA publishes them, and not just for failing ones. Regarding why I said I will not go back to 2013....namely, it's not worthwhile to debate this with people that CLEARLY want to tear me, and my business down, when we have worked so very hard to build an excellent breeding program. We do always sign to release abnormals as far as our OFA testing too. Secondly, my husband bred dogs without me since 2002. 2013 is the year I casually began helping him, the last 3 years I became much more involved. I'm not going to waste the time on digging through which dog had which clearance just to be bashed on more for a few opinions, which regardless will be negative. As far as OFA CERF goes. I have customers contact us every single day that only know to use certain terms. I used the term on our website that people still most commonly use. I am aware that is is now CAER. If it is truly offensive to many people I'm sure my website can be changed. As I said, our customers are provided with health certs showing exactly what each dog has been tested for, and results. We are trying SUPER hard to provide quality puppies for wonderful families. No breeder is perfect and has room for improvement. Every single day I see breeders out there that are selling unregistered litters, dogs with no OFA hips/elbows etc for the exact same price as our puppies and it's terrible. Seriously, we are trying HARD. Please, just see the good in that.


Prism Goldens said:


> denzilsgoldens said:
> 
> 
> > I really cannot say totally accurately which dogs had what clearances in 2013 as we have made great strides to improve our breeding program since then. )
> ...


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## denzilsgoldens (Mar 21, 2018)

Skye has her Penn Hip done as of 23 months of age. There is not a public database so of course you cannot see that. We chose to do a practitioner heart clearance, as we live 4 hours from a veterinary cardiologist(as well as optomologist) and it was the best choice to at least complete the clearance at this time. Almost all of our dogs have their final cardiac clearance performed by a cardiologist which is the preference, however I believe three of them have been performed by a practitioner. If it was not acceptable, OFA would not give the certification. They passed the auscultation and were not referred for an echo. She has OFA eye clearances that have not posted yet, as well as we just finished her full Paw Print genetics panel. Honestly, we take our dogs to local obedience classes and that is about it. We are very transparent about that to our customers, we do not proclaim to be breeding dogs that we show frequently, do agility with, nor do not proclaim to be breeding dogs that we show frequently, do agility with , or train for field. Maybe you should look at a map to see just how rurally we do live. It is extremely hard for us to travel to events to participate in the things you're describing. We do not believe that we need to participate in showing dogs to be good breeders. We breed beautiful Goldens with excellent temperament that are very well trained with good health, that we are fortunate enough to sell to wonderful families. At this point in time that feels like enough for us. 



Altairss said:


> Lets do someone more current Skye. DENZILS SKYE BLUE YONDER Her birthdate is April 2 2016 your site shows she only has prelims for OFA and has already been breed before she was even old enough to get her final clearances. She only has a PRACTITIONER heart clearance and not one done by a cardiologist as required by the parent club. No eye clearances are shown so if you did them you did not send them into OFA. So your breeding underage dogs with incomplete or no clearances. You do not show that you do anything with your dogs other then breed more puppies. You do not show in any venue Hunt, tracking, rally, obedience or confirmation.
> 
> 
> https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1872962


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## denzilsgoldens (Mar 21, 2018)

I am unclear why we are avoiding clearances and manipulating buyers. I pay thousands in health clearances trying to ensure healthy puppies. That is a very strong accusation. We do go to health fairs, as we live very rurally, and that often is a good option for us yearly. Please do not ASSUME what you do not know about us, and our breeding ethics. My entire intent on this thread was to state that we are trying diligently to improve. We do health test to improve the breed. Have a great day.


Alaska7133 said:


> Here's my mantra: For the cost of ONE puppy, you can have clearances on the sire or the dam completed. ONE puppy. If you go to a health fair, often you can get BOTH sire and dam completed for the cost of ONE puppy. That's all it takes. Why oh why do you want avoid clearances and try to manipulate buyers? Today with the internet, it's easier to get checked up on than ever before. Again for the cost of ONE puppy, isn't it worth it to get those clearances done? Just ONE puppy....


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

"We absolutely know the appropriate age parameters for each health clearance. All our breeding dogs have passing, normal, final OFA Health Certs."

If that were true, you wouldn't be using an underage stud in many of your breedings. Scout isn't 2 until October of this year. Several of your dams that you're breeding this year are also underage. They cannot have final health certifications.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Here's the thing- 23 months isn't 2 years old. 2 years old is when a dog or bitch is old enough to receive a final clearance on hips/elbows in the US. 
Practitioner cardiac clearances are NOT sufficient. Just because OFA will issue a cert saying you had a pet vet listen to a dog's heart doesn't mean it is the gold standard or even worth doing at all.
"looked at prelim accidentally'? I don't buy that. Besides, who doesn't know by heart what their dogs' clearances are? Excellent holds some weight. Don't fool yourself, puppy buyers enjoyed imagining that excellent was the truth. 
OFA never requires someone to call to hound them about posting clearances. I dk why you would be different. 

Instead of defending, how about this- you go read the Code of Ethics of GRCA (the parent club in the US) and make your program fit those parameters. Don't make up your own rules. Again.
Imagine how, if it troubles you that a BYB charges what you do and doesn't have hips done, that what YOU do is troubling to a truly ethical breeder....I agree 100% with Stacey's mantra. Spend one puppy's money getting your program in line with the CoE and no one will find fault. Until you do, you are not doing a good job. You might be doing a better job than you were, but why do anything and not do the best you can?


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## denzilsgoldens (Mar 21, 2018)

I am surprised that there are that many people that wait until a stud is 2, to use him. I personally have not found any. Scout's PennHip was beautiful, I looked at the films myself with the vet. DI of .27, and .30. They say they are accurate as of 16 weeks of age but he had them done at a year and half. I will give you NO excuses for using that beautiful dog for breeding at this age. He is mature, with the best temperament I've seen out of a dog in years. And quite frankly is just what a Golden should be. And maybe what you have lost sight of here. Part of this is about loving this breed, their kind gentle nature. Nothing that has been said here is kind, gentle or in the interest of truly improving my breeding practices. It was to chew on me, and make you look RIGHT. We did OFA Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, CAER(for those of you that had problems with me using CERF?<img src="http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />, genetic testing and thyroid clearances on him. All beautiful. For all of you that are up in arms about "final" OFA certs? Why don't you start doing PennHip....Scout only got a "Good" rating on OFA, yet his PennHip DI was good enough to be in the 95% and above of the breed. OFA is an opinion....it's subjective. Pennhip is science based on percentiles. Scout is genetically sound and will improve the breed. I offer no excuses. Breeding Scout was 100% appropriate. 



ArchersMom said:


> "We absolutely know the appropriate age parameters for each health clearance. All our breeding dogs have passing, normal, final OFA Health Certs."
> 
> If that were true, you wouldn't be using an underage stud in many of your breedings. Scout isn't 2 until October of this year. Several of your dams that you're breeding this year are also underage. They cannot have final health certifications.


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## denzilsgoldens (Mar 21, 2018)

I'll be sure to let my wonderful vet that I value more than anything let you know what you think of him. As an RN myself, I firmly do believe that someone experienced in auscultation can very well disconcern between abnormal heart sounds etc. Which is why the OFA allows it I would guess. I choose to believe that if the OFA will offer a certification in that manner, that it is okay to obtain it. If available to us, yes, I will always choose the gold standard route. And have, for almost all our dogs. When faced with the choice of having to travel 4 hours over a snowy pass, and my husband was recovering from a broken femur, to get a few of our girls heart certs done, vs having them done here by our vet, I chose the easier option, vs not having them done at all(which would have been unwise) and I plan to re-do them by a cardiologist as soon as possible. But in the meanwhile they ARE acceptable, as stated by the OFA. 

Regarding, my error on Ryder's hips....I'm very glad you are above human mistakes. It must be a nice way to live. He is an amazing dog, with excellent clearances and a wonderful tempermant. We are not producing genetically unhealthy puppies. I think our customers will forgive my mistake. As I stated, they are provided with copies of all the health certifications. They can see with their own eyes what they get. Until you live in my shoes you cannot determine if I am a truly ethical breeder. You don't want to know how you appear from my shoes. 



Prism Goldens said:


> Here's the thing- 23 months isn't 2 years old. 2 years old is when a dog or bitch is old enough to receive a final clearance on hips/elbows in the US.
> Practitioner cardiac clearances are NOT sufficient. Just because OFA will issue a cert saying you had a pet vet listen to a dog's heart doesn't mean it is the gold standard or even worth doing at all.
> "looked at prelim accidentally'? I don't buy that. Besides, who doesn't know by heart what their dogs' clearances are? Excellent holds some weight. Don't fool yourself, puppy buyers enjoyed imagining that excellent was the truth.
> OFA never requires someone to call to hound them about posting clearances. I dk why you would be different.
> ...


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

denzilsgoldens said:


> I am surprised that there are that many people that wait until a stud is 2, to use him. I personally have not found any. Scout's PennHip was beautiful, I looked at the films myself with the vet. DI of .27, and .30. They say they are accurate as of 16 weeks of age but he had them done at a year and half. I will give you NO excuses for using that beautiful dog for breeding at this age. He is mature, with the best temperament I've seen out of a dog in years. And quite frankly is just what a Golden should be. And maybe what you have lost sight of here. Part of this is about loving this breed, their kind gentle nature. Nothing that has been said here is kind, gentle or in the interest of truly improving my breeding practices. It was to chew on me, and make you look RIGHT. We did OFA Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, CAER(for those of you that had problems with me using CERF?<img src="http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />, genetic testing and thyroid clearances on him. All beautiful. For all of you that are up in arms about "final" OFA certs? Why don't you start doing PennHip....Scout only got a "Good" rating on OFA, yet his PennHip DI was good enough to be in the 95% and above of the breed. OFA is an opinion....it's subjective. Pennhip is science based on percentiles. Scout is genetically sound and will improve the breed. I offer no excuses. Breeding Scout was 100% appropriate.


Please read the GRCA code of ethics. Every responsible breeder should be waiting to breed until after 24 months of age. It is what's recommended by the GRCA and OFA. There is a reason why they don't allow final certifications until after 24months. I am not making this up to be cruel to you, it's the accepted age for breeding. You are free to do whatever you want with your business, but it is incorrect to say your animals have final certifications. I would only hope that you are honest with buyers and not use these terms if they're inaccurate. By the way, you can easily submit PennHip exams to OFA to be listed


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

denzilsgoldens said:


> I am surprised that there are that many people that wait until a stud is 2, to use him. I personally have not found any. Scout's PennHip was beautiful, I looked at the films myself with the vet. DI of .27, and .30. They say they are accurate as of 16 weeks of age but he had them done at a year and half. I will give you NO excuses for using that beautiful dog for breeding at this age. He is mature, with the best temperament I've seen out of a dog in years. And quite frankly is just what a Golden should be. And maybe what you have lost sight of here. Part of this is about loving this breed, their kind gentle nature. Nothing that has been said here is kind, gentle or in the interest of truly improving my breeding practices. It was to chew on me, and make you look RIGHT. We did OFA Hips, Elbows, Cardiac, CAER(for those of you that had problems with me using CERF?<img src="http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />, genetic testing and thyroid clearances on him. All beautiful. For all of you that are up in arms about "final" OFA certs? Why don't you start doing PennHip....Scout only got a "Good" rating on OFA, yet his PennHip DI was good enough to be in the 95% and above of the breed. OFA is an opinion....it's subjective. Pennhip is science based on percentiles. Scout is genetically sound and will improve the breed. I offer no excuses. Breeding Scout was 100% appropriate.


You have personally not found anyone waiting until two years old because you are not involved in the community and the folks you are involved with are people of the same mindset as you- not people who adhere to the Code of Ethics. I am very involved- have been for decades- and I can tell you that I know very few people who breed underaged males and if they do, it is on a bitch's last breeding, both have finished CH, etc etc.. it's all in who you surround yourself with.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

denzilsgoldens said:


> I'll be sure to let my wonderful vet that I value more than anything let you know what you think of him. As an RN myself, I firmly do believe that someone experienced in auscultation can very well disconcern between abnormal heart sounds etc. Which is why the OFA allows it I would guess. I choose to believe that if the OFA will offer a certification in that manner, that it is okay to obtain it. If available to us, yes, I will always choose the gold standard route. And have, for almost all our dogs. When faced with the choice of having to travel 4 hours over a snowy pass, and my husband was recovering from a broken femur, to get a few of our girls heart certs done, vs having them done here by our vet, I chose the easier option, vs not having them done at all(which would have been unwise) and I plan to re-do them by a cardiologist as soon as possible. But in the meanwhile they ARE acceptable, as stated by the OFA.
> 
> Regarding, my error on Ryder's hips....I'm very glad you are above human mistakes. It must be a nice way to live. He is an amazing dog, with excellent clearances and a wonderful tempermant. We are not producing genetically unhealthy puppies. I think our customers will forgive my mistake. As I stated, they are provided with copies of all the health certifications. They can see with their own eyes what they get. Until you live in my shoes you cannot determine if I am a truly ethical breeder. You don't want to know how you appear from my shoes.


I think your vet is a pet vet. He is not a specialist, not board certified. So not sufficient to clear hearts in Goldens. It is ok in some breeds- you can go check many parent club requirements and you will find some require more and some less than Goldens need. Your REAL choice was not to use a pet vet clearance but NOT TO BREED on that cycle. It is quite the quandry- breed with less than ethically outlined clearances, or don't breed.. Hmm... you see where I am going. An ethical breeder would not have bred the animals without correct clearances. 
I think what's confusing you is that PH allows 16 week hip clearances, and OFA allows P clearances- but because something is allowed doesn't make it the correct choice. An ethical breeder makes correct choices.

PS I make mistakes all the time- but never on a dog's clearances. And I would never try to defend making such an error by saying I grabbed the prelim instead. Like I said on the first post, you should know them by heart.


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## denzilsgoldens (Mar 21, 2018)

Robin, I just looked at your website. You have beautiful dogs and very clearly put a lot of effort into producing healthy and well rounded puppies. I can also clearly see that we have two different view points. I have a young family, and we sell dogs to young families almost always. Families come to our small farm, and their kids play with ours as they pick puppies and visit through the weeks. We take a lot of joy out of making connections like that with our customers. I'm not saying you don't as well, but I think you probably have found your pleasure in training your animals to their greatest potential. We are such a busy young family, that we really enjoy focusing on making sure that our breeding dogs have really above par temparments, and the puppies we produce are just what we enjoy. A family dog. Not to say that they don't have the confirmation to go on to be a show dog, and some of our dogs are showing great potential to do agility, Scout in particular and I am starting with him. However at this point in our lives, we are just a family, running a quality family business. Anyways, I suspect that deep down we are both nice people that genuinely love this breed very much. I also very much am trying my hardest to do the right thing by my animals, and by my customers. I am not naturally argumentive and I don't care to battle things like this out. You could definitely continue to pick me apart I'm sure. I just redid our website and there are probably errors. The point is, we are trying really darn hard. We are human. We are not reproducing unhealthy puppies, or breeding dogs that don't pass clearances. Glory's CAER, we were told by the optomologist that she had a cataract this year that was not disqualifying for certification(not genetic), as well as her having tons of lineage with clear eye certs, so we went ahead and bred her, and then we got her CHIC cert and it said ineligible. I need to follow up with the OFA and the specific opthamologist that did it. We are not perfect. (FYI we retired two beautiful girls this year, one for having a non passing CAER, and one for not passing a PennHip). End of story. You have beautiful dogs. Have a nice day.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm sorry that happened on the eyes.... so how does it happen? The board specialist, the ophthalmologist, is generally NOT a specialist in breeding. Nor do most of them know the B/O diagnoses for each and every breed. This is -for those who wonder why sending in the clearance to OFA is important- one of the main reasons- just like a pet vet can't look at a radiograph and pronounce the dog breedable, an ophthalmologist cannot call something a breeders option diagnosis... unless your breed is also his breed, it isn't likely he will know the various breeds conditions that are known to be genetic in that particular breed. OFA isn't going to be able to help on that, so it's unfortunate but one of those things that happens sometimes and we have to remove a dog from a breeding program because of it. 
Another big reason is for the future. You might think 'I don't breed for the future, I don't show, I make pets'... but this forum is a fabulous place to discover that 'just pets' are important, from a health standpoint, to the future of the breed. We need to be able to go look at those 'just pet' dogs and see what their eye exams held, what their hips look like, etc.. Behind every 'just pet' there IS a dog who was important to the breed at one time and certainly most of them were important to their families. You just bred to Hunter Hammon- he appears to have been bred by your husband. There are 4 AKC titles 5 gen back. Those dogs, particularly the CH ones, if you go spend some time researching them, their offspring, etc, and look at Hunter Hammon's pedigree vs a different path taken you will see that knowledge is crucial to a good breeding program. Having a plan beyond merely selling a litter is crucial. And if you ever want to be thought of as a good breeder among your fellow breeders, get a plan in place and start checking things off the list. You never know when one of your kids might want to be involved in dogs... don't you want that child to have a great foundation instead of have to go uphill the whole way?
I am not a big fighter either- but this breed that so desperately needs advocates who have the interest of the breed at heart (and not solely an income) is worth fighting for. Though I would like to imagine you can see it as education instead of picking apart. It's just hard when someone is defensive about their choices to not pick...
As a new breeder (and your husband is a new breeder too) you really, really need a mentor who is a stickler for the rules. I get living out in the boonies, it makes it hard to compete yourself. Competition is wonderful because you develop peers who are following the same rules, and who can be helpful to you in learning this breed. You could train for your novice NA or NAJ and then spend a weekend in a city you want to go visit and get a title. Even if you never do, learn what it takes to earn a title. Be familiar with all that. Try to make a vacation of a national next time it is on your part of the country. Children don't prevent involvement- I homeschooled my kids and one of them was ranked in the top 10 w a breed in every group but miscellaneous.. it is a WONDERFUL avenue for children who are well behaved and intelligent... not such a great place for wild kids but those good kids can go far in dogs. They can learn so much science, life, husbandry, art, social skills- all from dogs. And they can learn that their parents work within parameters that are determined by a governing body- this one thing alone is a great thing to learn young. 
Thank you for the kind words. Everyone starts somewhere- and it is obvious you are trying to do better... my advice to you is to memorize the CoE and follow it, if you don't understand why something is there, ask. Just like the practitioner thing- yes- it is a clearance. No, it is not an adequate Golden clearance. But when you don't study something and instead you assume something, you make errors that can cost this breed.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> Everyone starts somewhere- and it is obvious you are trying to do better... my advice to you is to memorize the CoE and follow it, if you don't understand why something is there, ask. Just like the practitioner thing- yes- it is a clearance. No, it is not an adequate Golden clearance. But when you don't study something and instead you assume something, you make errors that can cost this breed.


Yes, this. 

Also, be aware the OFA is going to end Practioner heart certifications. There is not a timeframe yet, but it will end as we transition to the Advanced Cardiac Database. This along with our breed club’s stand in it should really drive home that if you truly value heath a Cardiologist is what you need. See the full document here. https://www.ofa.org/pdf/ACA_Announcement.pdf

This is the kind of thing a good mentor or a strong ethical peer group would make sure you knew.


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## HudsonRiver (Oct 23, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> You just bred to Hunter Hammon- he appears to have been bred by your husband. There are 4 AKC titles 5 gen back. Those dogs, particularly the CH ones, if you go spend some time researching them, their offspring, etc, and look at Hunter Hammon's pedigree vs a different path taken you will see that knowledge is crucial to a good breeding program. Having a plan beyond merely selling a litter is crucial.


Robin, can you explain this some more? Hunter is my dogs grandfather. I just want to make sure I'm reading this right since it caught my eye!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I will PM you what I meant today and then post it in a few days so that
if these folks come back, they could complete the exercise rather than just read the answers.


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## SunLovenGolden (Mar 17, 2018)

HudsonRiver said:


> Robin, can you explain this some more? Hunter is my dogs grandfather. I just want to make sure I'm reading this right since it caught my eye!


Would like this explain more too. I have Hunter in my line too.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Mostly what I meant was directed at the new breeders learning to see how pedigrees can shift- it was a suggestion of an exercise. Exercises are fabulous training tools for humans. K9data holds myriad exercises! Ex: go back from your dog to one of the originals. 
Ex: go back from your dog to ggrands and learn all you can about them, their offspring, the animals they were bred to. 
So what crossed my mind here was how pedigrees shift. 

Five generation pedigree: Harley's Maverick Dawg is his sire. 

Titles are how we know a dog was owned by someone involved in the breed. He has an involved group in his 5th generation. 
On the dog Hunter Hammon, his 5th has nothing on the stud dog side at all. The dogs represented there we know nothing about. The dam’s side 
is ever slightly better, but not much. When I see pedigrees like this, I always go look at the last titled dog- Pedigree: BIS AmCan CH. Allsgold Fyreglo First In Line JH in this case- and follow a more traditional path. Pedigree: Can CH Creeksidefrm's All That Jazz CD is one such dog. He has the same dog in the same position as the Hunter dog, but all the choices made around the dog on this path were considerably more thoughtful. It shows in the pedigree of the offspring generations down and in their depth of clearances.

Here’s a different path- same position w that last titled dog- Pedigree: NCG's Awrey Fowl Weather Friend and you can see that while there was no focus on conformation titles, there is definitely a focus on the field and depth of clearances when looking at this dog’s pedigree. 

One dog can go a lot of directions. All of them do not end up in an animal who ought to contribute to the gene pool. The free stud dog method imo can not lend itself to the best anything- show dog, hunting companion or beloved family pet.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Prism,
Excellent information! Thank you for your thoughts. K9data is so important world wide. It is an amazing tool. By the way if anyone is curious, labs and Tollers are on there too.


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