# nasal issues



## chisumw (Jun 6, 2010)

My 9 yr old golden has been recently diagnosed with rhinitis that they think may be a tumor in her nasal cavity. For the past few months she has had difficulty breathing through her nose. We have had all kinds of tests, x-rays, digital x-rays, blood work, 2 CT scans, 2 scopes, and biopsies. We took her to A&M for the last two exams where they did the ct scans and scopes. During the last exam they ran catheters up and back down her nasal cavity and was able to pass them through with no problem. The CT’s show a small mass but they felt it looked more like a fluid vs. a mass. The biopsies came back good and the scope did not show any signs of unusual activity. There is no bone destruction in her nasal cavity. She has had some bloody discharge this week following the exam and catheters up her nose.

We have used several medicines and have changed them up numerous times. The meds she is currently on are prednisone (anti-inflammatory) & Phenylpropanolamine (decongestant). She exhibits almost every type of side effect that I can find online. Restlessness, panting, increased water consumption, no energy, mouth sores and more. Up until this she has been an extremely healthy , in good shape golden. She weighs about 65 lbs, very active (until know) and no major prior issues. She is an only dog and stays inside.

She cannot sleep, half the time she stands in place and pants. This morning she actually feel asleep standing in front of us and fell down before waking up.

The vet at A&M who is treating her feels like surgery would be the best option at this time these were her exact words - The only way to get to this part of her nose would be via a surgical approach. We cannot see this region with the scope (not from either direction). The up side to a surgery would be (a) a diagnosis and (b) the chance to remove some of the mass and make her more comfortable. The down sides would be (a) discomfort from surgery and (b) VERY VERY unlikely to be a cure. Depending on what we found, then radiation or chemotherapy may give her more time.

I am at wits end and do not know what to try or do. Any recommendations?

Thank you!


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

First of all Welcome to GRF. Second ...Wow you have a plateful there. Personally I would do whatever to make my pup comfortable. Though you are the pups guardian and need to do what you feel is best. Tough job.


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## chisumw (Jun 6, 2010)

Has anyone else gone through this where they were not sure if it was cancer or not? Are there any other medicines out there that we should try? The biggest problem right now is she can’t breathe through her nose. However the vet says the CT scan and scopes do not show it should be as bad as it is. I feel the medicines are doing more harm than helping right now, of course it my opinion with my vast medical experience J. Any recommendations or referrals would be greatly appreciated by us and Dixie! thx


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I think that I would try the chemo to try and shrink the tumor . It would be less invasive than the surgery. Is the vet that you have talked to an oncologist? If not then I would talk to an oncologist about it. It is late at night so you may not get many answers but I will keep an eye on the thread and will bump it up in the morning if it doesnt get many responses because we have had several members that have gone thru cancer issues with their goldens. 
We will keep Dixie and your family in our prayers.


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## Hudson (May 18, 2005)

Sorry you and your golden Dixie are having such a tough battle, hoping some members here can offer you some advise to help you, many have great experience and have been thru cancer ordeals with their goldens. Good luck and please keep us posted on her progress. Hugs to your Dixie,hope you find the best treatment to make her more comfortable.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

I agree with BeauShel--is the vet at A&M an oncologist? I would want an oncologist on my team on this one.

I realize you are in Texas, but I am going to give you a couple of links to a couple of national vets that helped me when my two goldens were diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. The first link is to Dr. Jaimie Modiano, who is now in Minnesota. He was very kind and spoke to me after my senior, Jake, had successful surgery for cutaneous hemangiosarcoma. Jake had the surgery at age 5, and lived to nearly 13. This is the link to Dr. Modiano--he is a leading canine cancer specialist:

http://www.modianolab.org/ 

The second vet was Dr. Kerstin Lindbah-Toh at the Broad Institute at MIT--here is the link: I contacted her when my second golden was diagnosed with hemangio of the heart about 2 years ago--that disease is a killer but Dr. Toh was very helpful and these vets doing research on the cutting edge of technology helped me with my decision making process. Good luck to you and hugs to your baby. It's so difficult to see them sick and you just want them to be happy and comfortable. I am in South Florida but I felt it was worthwhile to call nationwide and I got consultations for free--just the cost of the long distance phone calls.

http://www.broadinstitute.org/mammals/dog/vet_samples.html


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Personally, I would take the A&M vet's advice. If the mass is not malignant, the chemo will do nothing except expose her to very dangerous drugs. Since she is so miserable and even unable to sleep, I would be very inclined to do whatever it took to give her some relief ( short term goal) and get a diagnosis (which would enable you and your vet to determine a course of treatment). I'm sorry you found us under these circumstances, and I'll be praying for a good diagnosis and complete recovery from up here in Dallas.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I'm so sorry you are facing this issue. We just lost a dog to hemangiosarcoma and a suspected nasal carcinoma, that may have been related to his hemangiosarcoma, or may have been an independent nasal cancer, or, possibly a polyp of some sort. He also had an anal growth we never got diagnosed by biopsy due to the hemangiosarcoma. Cancer stinks.

First, for non-Texans, A&M is a world class veterinary school and I'm sure whatever advice they are giving is the best advice possible for Dixie, after examining her. If we had been a little closer we would have gone there ourselves. 

Barkley, our 12+ year old golden was diagnosed in January with hemangio, and a suspected anal carcinoma. The treatment for hemangio is surgery to remove the tumor (spleen) and chemotherapy, either intravenous or oral pills. It's a crapshoot because the disease is so aggressive. We decided to try one round of intravenous chemo and he did so well we completed all five rounds. Between the 4th and 5th round he started bleeding nasally, from the left nostril. After a few instances of taking him to the vet for treatment with epi shots we let them do a sedation with a partial scope up the nasal passages. They could not get all the way up due to the equipment and the size of Barkley's snout (it was long). What they found was somewhat similar to what you are describing, but vague: the nasal passages were not deteriorated but there was a darkening on the left side that indicated either a mass (polyp or tumor) or just inflammation (which could be due to the bleeding). They offered (but did not recommend it) to refer us to a specialist here in Dallas with a better scope for a full biopsy and scope but the risk was increased bleeding, and we had a hemangiosarcoma dog with low normal hct counts. It seemed at his age to subject him to another surgery (when he had no spleen), sedation and bleeding, was not conducive to treating his primary hemangiosarcoma. We had a dog, almost 13, with an anal growth, nosebleeds and lowered immunity--it was just to risky so we decided to just monitor. 

We were told if this were an independent nasal carcinoma (not related to the hemangio) that the chemotherapy would be ineffective. To treat they would need to radiate. We just couldn't see doing that at this point. 

Barkley developed other complications that crippled him and when the bleeding got so bad his hct plummeted we released him from his suffering, and we will never know what caused the severe nosebleeds.

I used to volunteer for another golden rescue group. One of their dogs was adopted out and developed a nasal carcinoma that was successfully removed and then treated with radiation therapy. The radiation scarred his muzzle, a small price to pay in my opinion. After completion they told the adopter there was a chance it would come back and unfortunately it did about 2 years later. She wasn't able to handle the trauma again and released him back to the rescue. The rescue couldn't afford to treat him and put him in a permanent foster care status. I believe he lived another six months or so, and his symptoms were nosebleeds and difficulty breathing. 

I am so sorry you are dealing with this. You are fortunate to be close to a fabulous resource, A&M, and I would trust their recommendations.


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

A&M was the #5 vet school last year (US N&WR). 
If you want another opinion, CSU is ranked #2.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

BajaOklahoma said:


> A&M was the #5 vet school last year (US N&WR).
> If you want another opinion, CSU is ranked #2.


 
Unfortunately from just north of Houston that is a heck of a LONG drive just for a few ranking points. A&M is a fabulous resource.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Here is another recent thread about nasal carcinomas. Perhaps Starfire 5 can provide you with some information:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showpost.php?p=1119412&postcount=1


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## chisumw (Jun 6, 2010)

Thanks for all of the info and best wishes. The supervising vet is not an oncologist but one has been consulted with the tests and exams at A&M.
A&M is a great school that hopefully they can come up with a solution. RIght now we just need a temporary fix so she can rest and get some relief.
Thank you!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I saw your post in the other thread. Barkley had difficulty breathing through his nose in the end...it was very frightening for him. The nasal epi shots helped at first but they no longer worked. As a last ditch effort, out of desperation, I pulled out some Chinese herbs our holistic acupuncture vet prescribed called yunan paiyoa, gave him the emergency pill and it worked temporarily. He was bleeding through all of this and those herbs worked to stop bleeding so I'm not sure they would work for general congestion. In any event it's not something I wanted to do while he was getting conventional treatment because of potential harsh interactions with his other medications. I gather the decongestants aren't working? 
One other thing we started the very last few days for his cruciate tear(s)/injury was a human pain killer called gabupentin (neurontin)--it just knocked him out so he could sleep but he breathed through his mouth, which isn't a good way to sleep.


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*chisumw*

chisumw

I would follow any recommendations A&M has so she can breathe comfortably.
It is your decision, but if it were my dog, I would Start with whatever they say first.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

chisumw said:


> Thanks for all of the info and best wishes. The supervising vet is not an oncologist but one has been consulted with the tests and exams at A&M.
> A&M is a great school that hopefully they can come up with a solution. RIght now we just need a temporary fix so she can rest and get some relief.
> Thank you!


One thing I learned in my research for a board certified oncologist in the North Texas area was there aren't that many, and the 2 in Dallas worked together. One of them I wouldn't trust with my dog's health because this person misread a tick blood panel on our Beau years before, telling us he was fine when he actually tested positive for rocky mountain spotted fever. A couple we know used this person for their dog's cancer and they were not happy with the person's skills and/or the practice manager's business ethics. Barkley's personal vet told me not to worry about the board certification so much in Barkley's case because the treatment protocol for hemangio is standard and did not need to be done in an board certified oncologist's clinic. All of Barkley's radiology reports for his nasal and orthopedic issues during his cancer journey were digitally transmitted to a board certified radiologist for a second opinion and we were satisfied.


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## chisumw (Jun 6, 2010)

Dallas Gold said:


> I saw your post in the other thread. Barkley had difficulty breathing through his nose in the end...it was very frightening for him. The nasal epi shots helped at first but they no longer worked. As a last ditch effort, out of desperation, I pulled out some Chinese herbs our holistic acupuncture vet prescribed called yunan paiyoa, gave him the emergency pill and it worked temporarily. He was bleeding through all of this and those herbs worked to stop bleeding so I'm not sure they would work for general congestion. In any event it's not something I wanted to do while he was getting conventional treatment because of potential harsh interactions with his other medications. I gather the decongestants aren't working?
> One other thing we started the very last few days for his cruciate tear(s)/injury was a human pain killer called gabupentin (neurontin)--it just knocked him out so he could sleep but he breathed through his mouth, which isn't a good way to sleep.


It doesn't seem that the decogestants are working, or at least not well enough. She has a runny nose, which she did not prior, but it is not clearing it up enough for her to breathe. I know she's trying but I wish I could make her understand how to blow hard or sneeze to clear it out some. But I've been wishing for the past 9 years she could always understand me!  She is doing better today than over the weekend, I have not spoken to the vet since Friday. I emailed her to see if there is anything we can do to help now, and see how they want to proceed.
It's amazing the energy Dixie still has but only getting a couple minutes of sleep, if that much at a time, can not be beneficial to her treatments.
As far as A&M, I have complete trust in them. As a fellow Aggie and since Dixie was named after the Dixie Chicken, they have to figure out a way to fix her. I just would be more comfortable if they were confident this would help, and want to make sure I am not putting her through pain and discomfort for nothing.
Thanks!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

If she isn't sleeping she is suffering so it boils down to deciding whether the surgery has a chance to relieve her distress and how difficult the recovery will be from the surgery. I don't know anything about nasal surgery recovery. If we had been in your shoes and didn't have the hemangiosarcoma monster controlling Barkley's treatment we would have done the sedated nasal scope/biopsy/surgery in a heartbeat to stop the bleeds and get a definitive diagnosis. If it was cancer we would have started treating it immediately. He was absolutely miserable when he was forced to breathe out of his mouth.

The rescue dog I mentioned in an earlier post had a mri when he was first diagnosed with cancer. I gather it is more reliable than the scope because it looks at the entire nasal cavity and the scopes often cannot go up as far as needed. The downside is cost (several thousand dollars a few years ago) and if something is found you have to do the scope/biopsy anyway. 

One other thing that came to my mind when reading about Dixie and the fact she isn't having nosebleeds--I wonder if she has some sort of obstruction higher than the scope could see that is causing all the congestion.


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## chisumw (Jun 6, 2010)

When this first started she did have one nose bleed. SHe is now having a bloody discharge but this started after the scope last week.
We have had 2 CT scans and several x-rays, I'm not sure why they went with CT's vs. MRI's??? There doesnlt appear to be any solid object or mass, but they felt it could be a mucous, blood, or non-mass tumor (I think).
The first time they sedated her and did they scope they took biopsies which they had a hard time stopping the bleeding. They cannot get to her entire nose with the scopes and the vet wanted to do the second MRI since the first one didn;t show anything bad. Also the biopisies came back good, but where they want to do the surgery is where the scope cannot reach.
SOme good news is Dixie did much better today and seemed to get some rest. She was excited to go on a short walk tonight, so I took her just down the block. It wasn't far enough for her, but I didn;t want to push it.
I am going to get with the vet in the morning and we'll see what she has decided is the best thing to do. So far i done everything both our regular vet and the ones at A&M have suggested or wanted to do. I just wanted to get second opinions from others who have gone through this to make sure I am doing the right thing. Thank you to everyone who has commented!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

We will keep Dixie in our prayers and add her to the GRF candle site. If you are not familiar with it, here it is. 
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=GRF


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

The bloody discharge is probably a side effect of the scoping. It sounds like your experience is exactly how it was described to us as our vet was giving us the risks vs benefits of scoping Barkley. Perhaps the increased congestion this week is a direct side effect of the scoping and it will go down as she recovers. :crossfingThe fact the biopsies on Dixie came back benign is a good sign.

Please keep us posted on what happens. We all learn from others experiences.


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