# Reputable English Cream Golden Retriever Breeders



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Let us know if you find that.

There is so much misinformation in what you posted that I am just going to throw up hands and wish you well.


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## jake009 (Aug 1, 2021)

LJack said:


> Let us know if you find that.
> 
> There is so much misinformation in what you posted that I am just going to throw up hands and wish you well.


Hi Jack,
Thanks. Maybe that is a reason I am not finding a breeder. Am I being too picky? I am happy to fix it. Please help me.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I have imported directly from Europe and nearly everything you have up there about them being a variant is marketing fluff/misinformation that less than reputable breeders are happy to proliferate and take advantage of.

I review a lot of breeders and I track my research. When a breeder is using the term cream or English Cream in the US, my numbers are that there is only about a 5% chance they are even doing the minimum of appropriate health certifications. 

Less than reputable breeders are who breed for color, so if you take my 5% and tack on a requirement that all hips be excellent or the PennHIP equivalent, that becomes a tiny percentage of an already tiny percengage, hence the well wishes.


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## jake009 (Aug 1, 2021)

LJack said:


> I have imported directly from Europe and nearly everything you have up there about them being a variant is marketing fluff/misinformation that less than reputable breeders are happy to proliferate and take advantage of.
> 
> I review a lot of breeders and I track my research. When a breeder is using the term cream or English Cream in the US, my numbers are that there is only about a 5% chance they are even doing the minimum of appropriate health certifications.
> 
> Less than reputable breeders are who breed for color, so if you take my 5% and tack on a requirement that all hips be excellent or the PennHIP equivalent, that becomes a tiny percentage of an already tiny percengage, hence the well wishes.


Jack, that's good to know.
I will widen my search to include OFA-Good Hip scores as well. I do not know how to find a breeder that breeds White GRs and that is a reputable one. Hence, I am reaching out to this forum to see if I can find some recommendations.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

jake009 said:


> I am looking for a reputable English Cream Golden Retriever.


You will not find one.


jake009 said:


> I have done some research about the different health testing


That's great, now search this forum for "English Cream".


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

Golden retrievers don't come in white


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## Mango’s Mum (Mar 22, 2021)

I saw some Golden puppies advertised as “Ice White” the other day… _cringe_


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

If they are white they are not a GR. that is not a permissible shade if breeding ethically to the breed standard regardless of which side of the pond you are on, UK or USA.

FYI I am English living in England and although our rescue golden is a cream shade here in the UK we have the full spectrum of golden shades. 
There are quite lot of golden retrievers in my local area, I’d say the cream colour whilst not unusual are in the minority. Most golden retrievers in my part of England are a light gold to medium gold. They are beautiful. I’d be equally happy with a more golden looking golden! 

I have a preference for the confirmation (show) size and frame, prefer the chunkier muscley frame rather than the sleek field golden frame. 

I really would put temperament and health and energy level (compatibility to your family life) above colour.

FYI in England no such thing as English cream/creme a golden retriever is a golden retriever. 

I really don’t understand this obsessions some Americans have with wanting a cream or very light golden? The prevalence of people coming on here wanting that is making me increasingly uncomfortable as to the why a light shade is so important?! 😬😳


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

CCoopz said:


> The prevalence of people coming on here wanting that is making me increasingly uncomfortable as to the why a light shade is so important?!


It is the current fad and many will always choose style over substance. In the coming weeks and months we can look forward to more posts about the best harness, food and toys to get. Also, "my puppy bites ,barks, cries, etc." or "why won't my puppy do what I say? I gave him a treat" and unfortunately many about genetic health issues.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Many of the 'White/ Cream's" do not only have parents that have not been fully health screened, the are not both Golden Retrievers...that's how they get the white color! In my world we call these pups mutts....
Many of these breeders are in it for the money and will say whatever you want to hear. They will swear the parents are health certified, yet they nor you cannot find verification of this testing....
Be afraid, be very afraid.....


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## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

English Creme Golden Breeder Questions


We are getting a female.




www.goldenretrieverforum.com




I find it simply astonishing that after all that has been written on this forum about this breeder you would have even considered Elaine a "reputable breeder" worthy of further review. I'm glad you avoided the heartbreak of a puppy from her but your statement in you earlier post may lead others looking at this thread at a later date to consider this breeder. Please read the above thread before doing so. As many of the reputable breeders, who are members of this forum, will tell you this "breeder" is not reputable. BUYER BEWARE.


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## 213926 (Feb 10, 2021)

Here is a starting point for information about English creme golden retrievers: What Exactly Is An "English" Golden Retriever...

A forum search for "English creme/cream" will reveal a lot of information about the term. Here is a short summary from a poster: English Creme Breeder?

If you're interested in the specific structure of certain dogs, perhaps look into an English-style breeder, although those reputable breeders are few. If you're interested in a healthy dog that will live a long life without health issues, your best chances are finding health tested dogs from responsible breeders that put the time and care into their lines, without a focus on color. When breeders start focusing on color, other traits such as temperament, structure, and health often are overlooked. There's nothing wrong with a preference for coat color, but it shouldn't be the top criteria for a dog. Instead, a focus on healthy lines, testing, temperament, lifestyle fit, and personality when looking for a breeder will help you find the right dog that fits you.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

CCoopz said:


> If they are white they are not a GR. that is not a permissible shade if breeding ethically to the breed standard regardless of which side of the pond you are on, UK or USA.


This ^^^^

It is genetically impossible for a Golden to be white. Hence why all breed standards forbid it and why it is super problematic when a breeder is advertising white. If the dog is white, it is a mix breed at best.



CCoopz said:


> FYI in England no such thing as English cream/creme a golden retriever is a golden retriever.
> 
> I really don’t understand this obsessions some Americans have with wanting a cream or very light golden? The prevalence of people coming on here wanting that is making me increasingly uncomfortable as to the why a light shade is so important?! 😬😳


Becuase it is s too often seen as a status symbol. It’s the whole I am unique and special so I can’t have a regular dog syndrome. I must have a silver lab, a merle franchie, double dapple dachshund, the newest _doodle_ or an english cream, no matter that these are health risky dogs from nearly always irresposible breeders looking to make a quick buck.

It is the biggest reason the reputable breeders in the UK and most of Western Europe will not sell to the US. The “English creams” we see here are usually from the old Soviet Bloc countries from comercial kennels (what many US puppy buyers would consider a puppy mill).

Add to that the baseless claims of lower cancer, longer life spans and ultra mellow temperaments, there are people who will fall for this or just embrace the misinformation because it is bragable.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

CCoopz said:


> ....FYI I am English living in England and although our rescue golden is a cream shade here in the UK we have the full spectrum of golden shades.
> There are quite lot of golden retrievers in my local area, I’d say the cream colour whilst not unusual are in the minority. Most golden retrievers in my part of England are a light gold to medium gold....I really don’t understand this obsessions some Americans have with wanting a cream or very light golden?... 😬😳


I'm glad you commented so the OP could see perspective from someone who lives in Europe. I bet if you do a little search you will find some breeders in your country trying to make money off selling "American Red Golden Retrievers" or something similar. I think a lot of people are drawn to the novelty of having something that is just a little different. In USA I suspect that people have been drawn to the idea that they could have the good temperament of a Golden Retriever but have something that looked like a big cuddly fluffy stuffed toy. Bonus if it's not as energetic and won't require all that annoying exercise and training because it's so "mellow" and "laid back". People don't realize that all the traits come in all the colors and in every combination. Focusing on a breeder who cares about temperament and a biddable/trainable dog is the #1 priority.

Maybe you could share some photos of your boy


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

nolefan said:


> I'm glad you commented so the OP could see perspective from someone who lives in Europe. I bet if you do a little search you will find some breeders in your country trying to make money off selling "American Red Golden Retrievers" or something similar. I think a lot of people are drawn to the novelty of having something that is just a little different. In USA I suspect that people have been drawn to the idea that they could have the good temperament of a Golden Retriever but have something that looked like a big cuddly fluffy stuffed toy. Bonus if it's not as energetic and won't require all that annoying exercise and training because it's so "mellow" and "laid back". People don't realize that all the traits come in all the colors and in every combination. Focusing on a breeder who cares about temperament and a biddable/trainable dog is the #1 priority.
> 
> Maybe you could share some photos of your boy


Oh yeah we have equivalent issues in the uk. Such as a craze for tea cup versions of breeds e.g. ‘tea cup yorkie’! Same issues re doodles. I have unfortunately come across 2 misguided people with Eastern European import ‘golden retrievers’ one looked like a white fox to me!

I know Teddy probably looks like what these ‘English cream’ hunters want. So me posting photos is not too support that! Honestly, in my little suburban area of the coastal region (not even the whole town) I live in there are soooo many Golden’s! I’m often envious of how much more thick and luxurious looking the more golden golden retriever coats are! All have lovely temperaments, different characters, Teddy is just another goldie.

The person, I’ve mentioned her before, who is an ethical reputable golden breeder in England. Very much part of the UK golden confirmation scene/associations/crufts, does breed cream Golden’s. But! On her website the word cream doesn’t feature at all! Clear statements on health testing does. When you talk to her about her breeding hobby she talks about health, the meticulous research into the proposed breeding lines as a priority never colour. Although it’s evident by what she produces that is her preference is the cream shade.

Sadly my Teddy is not one of her dogs offspring.


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## Mango’s Mum (Mar 22, 2021)

Teddy’s too gorgeous!

I’m also someone living in England. When searching for a puppy we almost went with a very dark golden, and a mid colour golden. One ended up being owned by a scam artist and the other a backyard breeder who didn’t do any health checks.
Our current breeder breeds for temperament, has done all the health checks and there are champions all over their Kennel Club pedigrees. Temperament and health were the two important things to us so we chose him, and our puppy just happens to be a very light cream. He is getting darker cream in places as he ages. We love him to bits and would choose him all over again, colour never really came into it. I confess I’ve got a soft spot for lighter Goldens now but that’s because I’m totally biased! 😂


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

CCoopz said:


> Oh yeah we have equivalent issues in the uk. Such as a craze for tea cup versions of breeds e.g. ‘tea cup yorkie’! Same issues re doodles. I have unfortunately come across 2 misguided people with Eastern European import ‘golden retrievers’ one looked like a white fox to me!
> 
> I know Teddy probably looks like what these ‘English cream’ hunters want. So me posting photos is not too support that! Honestly, in my little suburban area of the coastal region (not even the whole town) I live in there are soooo many Golden’s! I’m often envious of how much more thick and luxurious looking the more golden golden retriever coats are! All have lovely temperaments, different characters, Teddy is just another goldie.
> 
> ...


I like the tuxedo photo. Teddy is definitely dressed for success


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

jake009 said:


> Surprisingly, I do not see any breeder with sire and dam with all these health tests done and with a clear report.


Actually, it’s not surprising at all… it’s expected. Breeders who advertise “English Cream” so rarely follow the GRCA Code of Ethics that most of us assume use of the term automatically eliminates the breeder from the pool of “responsible” breeders. The claims of better health, calmer temperaments, etc., is all just hype. Indeed, because of the lack of clearances and the questionable background of the breeding stock, you can assume these dogs are a much higher risk for both health and temperament.

The issues with “English Creams” have been discussed extensively on this forum. I encourage you to use the search function to find and read these threads.

if you still find yourself drawn to the look of the so-called “English Cream” then you may find this thread to be a good start for finding reputable breeders who often produce dogs with lighter coats. Ethical "English Creme" breeders


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## jake009 (Aug 1, 2021)

Thanks everyone for the overwhelming response. I have learnt 1 thing for sure - Not to look for "English Cream" golden or golden that is white. I definitely want a golden that is breed for good health and temperament.
From what I understand so far, the Goldens that are imported from England are referred to as English Style Goldens. I should be looking for a breeder who breeds with a dog imported from England and who does not market with the term "English Cream" or "Cream". The breeder will probably be using the term English Style Golden and the Golden will not be white in color instead lighter shades of Golden. This is what I understand so far. Please feel free to correct me if I am missing something.


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## jake009 (Aug 1, 2021)

G-bear said:


> English Creme Golden Breeder Questions
> 
> 
> We are getting a female.
> ...


Thanks GBear. I have updated the post to make it sound better. But, could you please help me with a question? This will also help other prospective buyers to avoid MN English in the future.
The sire and dam that are listed in their website shows the health clearances as registered in the OFA website. How could a breeder be faking this? If they are not fake, what is wrong with them and what are the health clearances that are missing? If these health clearances are true, then what is wrong with the breeder. I do understand from the post you shared that the breeder could be very difficult to deal with, very rude, very demanding, has poor customer servicing skills and is too money minded. I am sorry, for a moment, I like to play the devil's advocate role to get more lights on this.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Moondust- sire of next litter - carrier for GRPRA2, ICT, Eyes last done in 2017- should done yearly.
That in itself is a risk. Mia's eyes were last done when she was 9 mo old. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2103439 Those are the only two I looked @ this time but there's no way I would risk this as far as eyes go.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

CCoopz said:


> I really don’t understand this obsessions some Americans have with wanting a cream or very light golden? The prevalence of people coming on here wanting that is making me increasingly uncomfortable as to the why a light shade is so important?! 😬😳


You and me both. It makes me cringe every time I see someone type "english cream."


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

jake009 said:


> Thanks everyone for the overwhelming response. I have learnt 1 thing for sure - Not to look for "English Cream" golden or golden that is white. I definitely want a golden that is breed for good health and temperament.
> From what I understand so far, the Goldens that are imported from England are referred to as English Style Goldens. I should be looking for a breeder who breeds with a dog imported from England and who does not market with the term "English Cream" or "Cream". The breeder will probably be using the term English Style Golden and the Golden will not be white in color instead lighter shades of Golden. This is what I understand so far. Please feel free to correct me if I am missing something.


#1 thing in buying a golden is that the parents have all 4 up to date clearances (hips, elbows, heart by cardio, eyes) and DNA.

Worry less about color. Goldens are supposed to be gold. Yes, gold can vary in shade from lighter to darker, but these "white" dogs are often mixed with great pyrenes (which is not admitted to by the breeders but it happens none the less). My advice, not that you have to take it, is to stop looking for a color or perceived "style" and look instead for a healthy awesome golden retriever, regardless of shade. A well bred golden is the best of the best of the best when it comes to a companion, and you won't be thinking about what color your dog is down the road, you'll just be loving him or her and all the joy they bring.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

OP: Re your question about OFA clearances, one of our members just started a blog with an excellent article about OFA that you may find helpful: Decoding OFA – How To Read OFA Health Test Results


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

jake009 said:


> Thanks everyone for the overwhelming response. I have learnt 1 thing for sure - Not to look for "English Cream" golden or golden that is white. I definitely want a golden that is breed for good health and temperament.
> From what I understand so far, the Goldens that are imported from England are referred to as English Style Goldens. I should be looking for a breeder who breeds with a dog imported from England and who does not market with the term "English Cream" or "Cream". The breeder will probably be using the term English Style Golden and the Golden will not be white in color instead lighter shades of Golden. This is what I understand so far. Please feel free to correct me if I am missing something.


 No that’s not what you should do

Do not keep looking up by any term beyond Golden Retriever


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

gr56 said:


> No that’s not what you should do
> 
> Do not keep looking up by any term beyond Golden Retriever


First look into this forum for listed reputable breeders . Look for health first and then be conscious if there breeding program leans towards your color preference


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## livduse (Dec 14, 2019)

jake009 said:


> Hi,
> I am looking for a reputable English Cream Golden Retriever. Needs some help finding one.
> 
> English Cream Golden Retriever - I understand that this is not a separate breed but is still a Golden Retriever. I see a lot of posts across different GR forums that say that when breeders market with these terms they may not be ethical or reputable breeders. The English Cream Golden Retrievers are a different variant of the Golden Retriever Breed recognized and bred in Europe as opposed to the American variant. The variants differ in their body built, color, temperament, cancer possibility rate, life span.
> ...


Steer clear of anyone using the term “English cream”. It’s simply a marketing ploy used by bybs. The top three things to look for are OFA clearances (up to date and passing) on all the breeding dogs, genetic clearances, and conformation and performance titles on the breeding dogs. There’s of course a lot more that goes into responsible breeding, but that’s a good place to start.


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

I think someone stated this already in your post thread, if not they have several times on many other similar posts. That you will find it extremely hard to find a golden breeder in the USA breeding from an imported golden retriever from the UK 🇬🇧. As ethical reputable uk golden retriever breeders are reluctant to do so because of the craze for ‘English cream’ style Golden’s in the USA. I’m not saying there aren’t any UK imported Golden’s in the USA but it might be like trying to find a needle in a hay stack.

There are some amazing golden hobby breeders on here who live and breath Golden’s and have encyclopaedic knowledge of breeding lines in the USA. Maybe they might know a reputable ethical breeder who is using breeding lines where there has been an UK import in the past at some point. But I don’t know 🤷‍♀️ just a hunch based on some nuggets of things said on the forum before.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I don't know of any reputable breeder in the UK that would sell a puppy to a breeder advertising 'English Cream' puppies. There will be some UK lines in the US but more commonly they will have come in through Eastern European breeders. You are more likely to find those lines in Canada. Annef


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

@jake009 Look up the following breeders:

Cross Creek
Kyon
Halia
Kernow
My Way
Lycinan 
Blackpool 
Darrowby 
Star Crowned

^^^^These are reputable breeders of English-type golden retrievers and what you should be aiming for. Once you see these websites and go through their dogs and all of the information they have available, you’ll be able to see the difference between them and “english cream” breeders. Hope this helps. Feel free to reach out if you have questions.


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## littlemoonbeam (Feb 1, 2021)

CCoopz said:


> If they are white they are not a GR. that is not a permissible shade if breeding ethically to the breed standard regardless of which side of the pond you are on, UK or USA.
> 
> FYI I am English living in England and although our rescue golden is a cream shade here in the UK we have the full spectrum of golden shades.
> There are quite lot of golden retrievers in my local area, I’d say the cream colour whilst not unusual are in the minority. Most golden retrievers in my part of England are a light gold to medium gold. They are beautiful. I’d be equally happy with a more golden looking golden!
> ...


Agreed! My guy was born in Chichester. He's a very healthy bouncy 14 and a 1/2. We've been exploring getting a puppy related to him but it is proving to be very frustrating. 
I would if you find a golden retriever breeder with ethicaI breeding standards who does not breed for color in the US please let me know.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Hildae said:


> #1 thing in buying a golden is that the parents have all 4 up to date clearances (hips, elbows, heart by cardio, eyes) and DNA.
> 
> Worry less about color. Goldens are supposed to be gold. Yes, gold can vary in shade from lighter to darker, but these "white" dogs are often mixed with great pyrenes (which is not admitted to by the breeders but it happens none the less). My advice, not that you have to take it, is to stop looking for a color or perceived "style" and look instead for a healthy awesome golden retriever, regardless of shade. A well bred golden is the best of the best of the best when it comes to a companion, and you won't be thinking about what color your dog is down the road, you'll just be loving him or her and all the joy they bring.


Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. They are not mixed with Pyrenees lol. They were bred for their color just as the red and gold colored Goldens. Akc has just as long of bloodline and history for them as they do their gold or red counterparts. I wouldn’t be spitting that non sense out if I were you. Dna testing proves that they are not mixed along with countless records. I’d like to see where you found your “information”. Lol


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Maddie_goldens said:


> They were bred for their color just as the red and gold colored Goldens.


Uhhhh no, They are bred for color, that's why they are white. Golden retrievers that are not bred for color are golden, it is the default color of the breed.


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. They are not mixed with Pyrenees lol. They were bred for their color just as the red and gold colored Goldens. Akc has just as long of bloodline and history for them as they do their gold or red counterparts. I wouldn’t be spitting that non sense out if I were you. Dna testing proves that they are not mixed along with countless records. I’d like to see where you found your “information”. Lol


What you are describing are people who are not breeding for the preservation of the golden retriever breed as to do so is to breed to the breed standard. The breed standard is very clear as to the permissible shades, cream being the lightest and white NOT being permissible. So sad when people take the gold out of the golden retriever.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. They are not mixed with Pyrenees lol. They were bred for their color just as the red and gold colored Goldens. Akc has just as long of bloodline and history for them as they do their gold or red counterparts. I wouldn’t be spitting that non sense out if I were you. Dna testing proves that they are not mixed along with countless records. I’d like to see where you found your “information”. Lol





CCoopz said:


> What you are describing are people who are not breeding for the preservation of the golden retriever breed as to do so is to breed to the breed standard. The breed standard is very clear as to the permissible shades, cream being the lightest and white NOT being permissible. So sad when people take the gold out of the golden retriever.


ohhhhh my gosh… I thought you were saying cream was bred with Pyrenees🤦‍♀️ My apologies! Lol I was so confused!


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> Uhhhh no, They are bred for color, that's why they are white. Golden retrievers that are not bred for color are golden, it is the default color of the breed.


 Red Goldens are bred to be darker. And Golden bred together to be gold. Cream bred together to be cream. There is no “default” color as there is such an array of shades you can’t say there is just one “default”. Red is not gold and cream is not red. They are dilute or more intense with dozens of shades in between. There are “acceptable” shades of each. And every country/continent has different standards. For example in the US or AKC standard, cream is not included. And In the uk/Europe, red is not included. Therefore people HAVE to breed for certain shades/colors pertaining to their own kennel club or their own preference. Nothing is wrong with breeding for color, otherwise there wouldn’t be diversity. That’s the beauty of the golden retriever and many other breeds!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

There's everything  wrong with breeding for color. I dk who your mentor is, or who you are, or what real experience you have, what successes you have, if any. But color is not something anyone should breed for. It's irrelevant.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

The lovely thing about goldens, to my mind, is the range of colour and the range of coat types, pale cream to deep golden, shorter straighter coats to thick very wavy long coats (in the UK) Cream was allowed in the UK in 1936 when a very famous dog called Gilder was cream produced several champions (think 8) Mating cream to cream does not always produce cream puppies . I have a dark girl at present who has a very pale cream grandfather but also dark lines behind her (including some US lines way back) and a very pale cream girl whose Mother and Grandfather are mid gold. Personally colour is never in my mind when planning a mating or when I judge, I just love the fact the breed is so varied.Temperament must surely come before everything else as most goldens are family pets. As for the 'English Creams' being more mellow and laid back they have never met my 10 year old! Annef


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Only unethical breeders breed for color.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no. They are not mixed with Pyrenees lol. They were bred for their color just as the red and gold colored Goldens. Akc has just as long of bloodline and history for them as they do their gold or red counterparts. I wouldn’t be spitting that non sense out if I were you. Dna testing proves that they are not mixed along with countless records. I’d like to see where you found your “information”. Lol


And the GP thing- yes, that has been shown in the past. Goldens coat color genetics are pretty specific. You don't get all white dogs from a pure Golden breeding. You're relying on the Eastern Euro breeders who sell puppies on full -or worse, bitches in whelp- to people who are cash crop breeders nothing more. Still waiting on the OFA links. Gotta put your money where you mouth is on this one.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Nothing is wrong with breeding for color, otherwise there wouldn’t be diversity. That’s the beauty of the golden retriever and many other breeds


I assume by this statement when you say “diversity” you mean, say, diversity of _breeds_ - e, g., that Golden retrievers, pugs, poodles etc, each originated from the same common ancestor and were selectively bred by humans to produce certain traits unique to each breed? The problem with our having done is that in creating the unique breeds we actually lost the hybrid vigor of the random bred “street dog” and reduced the gene pool and unintentionally concentrated some diseases and ailments into the various breeds.

When you take a breed like the Golden Retriever and concentrate on only one thing (like coat color) you artificially reduce the gene pool and reduce the “diversity” behind the dog and increase the chances of inadvertently concentrating other characteristics, like certain diseases, physical flaws, personality issues, etc.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

For anyone trying to understand why beeding for color is a very bad idea and no responsible breeders do so, check out this thread for a realistic thought experiment and its outcome.








Why do “English Cream” breedings get a bad rap - Thought...


I put this in another response where it is more rhetorical but I am curious about how you would choose. I also feel like there is a misunderstanding at least with me that I or even this forum has an issue with pale dogs. I don’t think that is the case. I think the issue is bad breeding so, I...




www.goldenretrieverforum.com





TL;DR - no one in the poll puts color over other more important factors like health, structure or temperament. Color based breeders do.


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## pediwent (Oct 8, 2019)

If you want a cream colored golden from the West Coast, look no further than Nicholberry Goldens. They are in Clovis and are just amazing. And while their site does use the words "English Cream", I can attest that they breed primarily with health and temperment in mind. If you check out their Instagram page, you can see everything they do when raising their puppies and they just do everything right. Their site also shows all the clearances of their sires and dams. I get what everyone says about the marketing ploy thing and that a golden is a golden. But I can say our own Jake has been a joy. Mellow, sensitive, respectful, and smart. He is a cancer survivor, though (anal sac adenocarcinoma at 9 years old) so I don't buy the lower occurrence claim. And just because a breeder focuses on cream-colored goldens doesn't automatically make them bad, but you do have to do your due diligence to make sure they are focused on the right things.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Just search Nicholberry on this site.


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## Taz Monkey (Feb 25, 2007)

pediwent said:


> If you want a cream colored golden from the West Coast, look no further than Nicholberry Goldens. They are in Clovis and are just amazing. And while their site does use the words "English Cream", I can attest that they breed primarily with health and temperment in mind. If you check out their Instagram page, you can see everything they do when raising their puppies and they just do everything right. Their site also shows all the clearances of their sires and dams. I get what everyone says about the marketing ploy thing and that a golden is a golden. But I can say our own Jake has been a joy. Mellow, sensitive, respectful, and smart. He is a cancer survivor, though (anal sac adenocarcinoma at 9 years old) so I don't buy the lower occurrence claim. And just because a breeder focuses on cream-colored goldens doesn't automatically make them bad, but you do have to do your due diligence to make sure they are focused on the right things.


I didn't read every page but I don't see any mention of health testing anywhere.


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## MissNoodle (Aug 25, 2015)

jake009 said:


> Thanks everyone for the overwhelming response. I have learnt 1 thing for sure - Not to look for "English Cream" golden or golden that is white. I definitely want a golden that is breed for good health and temperament.
> From what I understand so far, the Goldens that are imported from England are referred to as English Style Goldens. I should be looking for a breeder who breeds with a dog imported from England and who does not market with the term "English Cream" or "Cream". The breeder will probably be using the term English Style Golden and the Golden will not be white in color instead lighter shades of Golden. This is what I understand so far. Please feel free to correct me if I am missing something.


If you really mean what you say about wanting a healthy Golden first and foremost, then banish coat color from the discussion. Period.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

pediwent said:


> f you want a cream colored golden from the West Coast, look no further than Nicholberry Goldens.


I couldn’t find anything about their dogs anywhere (ie registered names or numbers, dogs in K9Data, dogs in OFA). I ran what I assume is their primary stud dog’s name in OFA and nothing came up.

If you can provide Jake’s parents’ AKC numbers from Jake’s pedigree papers, it’s easy enough for someone here to verify whether they had the clearances recommended by the code of ethics. Better yet, if you can provide the AKC numbers/names of their current dogs we can double check the clearances of their current dogs. Otherwise, based on what is publically available on their website, they do not appear to be the sort of breeder we generally view as reputable….

[Update 8/4/21 - Pediwent pointed out that the pictures on the Nicholberry Goldens site lead to details about each dog's clearances. When I went back to check, it does look like all their dogs have the appropriate clearances. My apologies for any confusion or misinformation on my part!]


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> There's everything  wrong with breeding for color. I dk who your mentor is, or who you are, or what real experience you have, what successes you have, if any. But color is not something anyone should breed for. It's irrelevant.


If color were relevant you would see service dog organizations breeding for it. They have a strong desire and need to breed puppies with the best chance of maturing into service dogs. These organizations are constantly researching inheritable traits that will fulfill this desire and need. Coat color (for Goldens AND Labs) does not show any predictive value.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> And the GP thing- yes, that has been shown in the past. Goldens coat color genetics are pretty specific. You don't get all white dogs from a pure Golden breeding. You're relying on the Eastern Euro breeders who sell puppies on full -or worse, bitches in whelp- to people who are cash crop breeders nothing more. Still waiting on the OFA links. Gotta put your money where you mouth is on this one.


I already said that to the op that I totally misunderstood what they were talking about. I thought they were saying that cream Goldens were bred with Pyrenees for that color. Are you stalking me now? Lol


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Maddie_goldens said:


> I already said that to the op that I totally misunderstood what they were talking about. I thought they were saying that cream Goldens were bred with Pyrenees for that color. Are you stalking me now? Lol


The person you were rude to wasn’t the OP, but they were saying that sometimes Goldens are mixed with Great Pyrenees in order to produce white puppies. Purebred Goldens cannot ever be true white. They don’t have the genes for it. However, there are many unscrupulous breeders out there that mix Goldens and GPs and market them as “rare white Goldens” and other nonsense.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Breed - Retriever or Pyr


I purchased a English Cream Golden Retriever but everyone tells me that he is a Great Pyrenees. Heâ€™s white, 2.5 yrs old and weighs 105 lbs. He gained




www.great-pyrenees-club-of-southern-ontario.com






Maddie_goldens said:


> I already said that to the op that I totally misunderstood what they were talking about. I thought they were saying that cream Goldens were bred with Pyrenees for that color. Are you stalking me now? Lol


Not stalking you- I am stalking the uneducated and trying to prevent unknowing buyers from buying the rhetoric of the EC.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Maddie_goldens said:


> I already said that to the op that I totally misunderstood what they were talking about. I thought they were saying that cream Goldens were bred with Pyrenees for that color. Are you stalking me now? Lol


I was just in the midst of writing just what Meagan just said ^^^ 

Just in the last few months we’ve had someone coming on the forum asking if it was common for a golden retriever to have rear dew claws. It’s not. However, it is the hallmark of a Great Pyrenees, so it’s likely their “purebred” Golden was likely a mix.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Golden Retrievers are genetically unable to be WHITE.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

I'm starting to think "English Cream" might be a red flag for poor breeding practices. Is that possible?


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

If somebody wants a white dog, I recommend Clumber Spaniels. Very sweet dogs. But spaniels, not retrievers - for sure. 🤣🤣🤣

You can have both a Golden and a Clumber and I recommend that - but only the Clumber will be white. There’s a terrific breeder who does both breeds!


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

ArkansasGold said:


> The person you were rude to wasn’t the OP, but they were saying that sometimes Goldens are mixed with Great Pyrenees in order to produce white puppies. Purebred Goldens cannot ever be true white. They don’t have the genes for it. However, there are many unscrupulous breeders out there that mix Goldens and GPs and market them as “rare white Goldens” and other nonsense.


My “uhhh” was more of an “where did you get that.” And yes I do know that they can’t be white. Totally misunderstood what they were saying and promptly apologized! My “cream” Goldens range from light gold to a very pale cream. I live in alaska and when it snows you can Definately see them and their coats!


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> I'm starting to think "English Cream" might be a red flag for poor breeding practices. Is that possible?


Yes. English cream is a marketing ploy. Personally I just call them Goldens that are cream(I actually breed them)😂 just like Goldens that are a deep red or medium gold😂 some breeders also call they “English type” which I’ve seen is also acceptable.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> Golden Retrievers are genetically unable to be WHITE.


Yes ma’am! We can agree on something


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

pawsnpaca said:


> I was just in the midst of writing just what Meagan just said ^^^
> 
> Just in the last few months we’ve had someone coming on the forum asking if it was common for a golden retriever to have rear dew claws. It’s not. However, it is the hallmark of a Great Pyrenees, so it’s likely their “purebred” Golden was likely a mix.


Oh my! I’ve never seen that before! I knew there were people who did it but didn’t see it that commonly. I actually breed cream Goldens and they are most definitely not white. I’m up in Alaska and when it snows you can easily find your pups


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> Breed - Retriever or Pyr
> 
> 
> I purchased a English Cream Golden Retriever but everyone tells me that he is a Great Pyrenees. Heâ€™s white, 2.5 yrs old and weighs 105 lbs. He gained
> ...


Oh then you’ll leave me alone then. Thanks


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

GoldenDude said:


> If color were relevant you would see service dog organizations breeding for it. They have a strong desire and need to breed puppies with the best chance of maturing into service dogs. These organizations are constantly researching inheritable traits that will fulfill this desire and need. Coat color (for Goldens AND Labs) does not show any predictive value.


Agreed. My little brother is autistic and I bred him a service dog. I bred a deep gold with a cream and they were my favorite litter by far. The parents temperaments and health come before anything. However, I do think that breeding for color is just some people aesthetic or preference in the matter. I know I prefer the pale creams and light Goldens over reds and deep golds some people may not like that but I enjoy what I do! And so do many loving families!


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Yes. English cream is a marketing ploy. Personally I just call them Goldens that are cream(I actually breed them)


That's good to hear. Now you've got me interested, can you post the OFA links for your dogs?


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## pediwent (Oct 8, 2019)

pawsnpaca said:


> I couldn’t find anything about their dogs anywhere (ie registered names or numbers, dogs in K9Data, dogs in OFA). I ran what I assume is their primary stud dog’s name in OFA and nothing came up.
> 
> If you can provide Jake’s parents’ AKC numbers from Jake’s pedigree papers, it’s easy enough for someone here to verify whether they had the clearances recommended by the code of ethics. Better yet, if you can provide the AKC numbers/names of their current dogs we can double check the clearances of their current dogs. Otherwise, based on what is publically available on their website, they do not appear to be the sort of breeder we generally view as reputable….


Did you even look at their site? Each of their dogs has a page on the site and if you mouse over the picture, you see a whole list of clearances and links to K9Data. Granted, it appears they only have an OFA link for their primary stud dog, but all their dogs have K9Data links. Jake isn't from Nicholberry - I should have made it clear that my recommendation was purely word of mouth and seeing the way they treat and train their puppies. Jake is from Talini Goldens, also a good hobby breeder out of Tucson (they were in CA when we got Jake). Here's Jake's K9Data.


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## jenherrin (Apr 15, 2018)

GoldenDude said:


> If color were relevant you would see service dog organizations breeding for it. They have a strong desire and need to breed puppies with the best chance of maturing into service dogs.


That's a great point. They also have a strong desire for healthy dogs, so if "English cream" goldens truly had fewer health issues, you'd see more of those in their breeding lines... but you don't.
I'm in the UK and raise puppies for Guide Dogs, and the majority of goldens they breed (or use as stud dogs or broods), while they may be English, are not "English cream." Photo is of the second Guide Dog pup we raised, and her look is typical of many goldens over here.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

pediwent said:


> Did you even look at their site? Each of their dogs has a page on the site and if you mouse over the picture, you see a whole list of clearances and links to K9Data. Granted, it appears they only have an OFA link for their primary stud dog, but all their dogs have K9Data links. Jake isn't from Nicholberry - I should have made it clear that my recommendation was purely word of mouth and seeing the way they treat and train their puppies. Jake is from Talini Goldens, also a good hobby breeder out of Tucson (they were in CA when we got Jake). Here's Jake's K9Data.


My apologies - you are absolutely correct. I DID look at their site but I missed that the pictures for the dogs included a link to their clearance stats and K9Data listings... Thanks for pointing that out. It does indeed look like the dogs listed on their site have full clearances (this is for the Nicholberry dogs, for anyone who is following this thread). I have updated my original post to clarify what I found. Again, my apologies... I was far too quick to judge. :-(


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## MintChip (Feb 26, 2021)

I am curious if the english cream goldens (esp the pure white ones) are really in fact Great Pyr mixes. They are advertised as being "calm" goldens. 

The AKC breed description of a Great Pyr:

Pyrs today are mellow companions and vigilant guardians of home and family...possessing a Zen-like calm.

vs

The Golden Retriever, an (exuberant) Scottish gundog....

Certainly there are calm goldens but it is interesting that the English Cream is constantly marketed as "more calm."

Great Pyrs are beautiful and if I had a farm-I'd get one. But after hearing someone correct me to say that their golden was an English Cream....eeks. It's like hearing someone boast they have a doodle.

Controversial but is the English Cream going to become the new "doodle"? Btw rear claws can be removed....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

MintChip said:


> Certainly there are calm goldens but it is interesting that the English Cream is constantly marketed as "more calm."


Whatever the color, the "calm" they are boasting of means lazy and it's a fault in Goldens.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

If this is any breeder’s ideal Golden Retriever, RUN!


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

While I don't agree with SRW's statement that "calm" means "lazy," certainly those who are specializing in "English Creams" are likely moving far away from the traditional working retriever, and probably selecting (assuming they give it any thought at all) for more laid back dogs, and so I wouldn't be surprised if, on whole, they are calmer than Goldens from working lines. BUT, I know plenty of low energy American "show" goldens, as well as a few high energy "English type" Goldens. So... bottom line... I don't think it's an indication that the "English Cream" goldens have been mixed with Pyrs.

The truly WHITE "goldens" are a whole 'nother story....


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

pawsnpaca said:


> SRW's statement that "calm" means "lazy,"


I’m referring to the use of “calm” by some breeders marketing dogs. I believe the implication being that they are lazy and require very little training. Sadly that’s what many want a golden to be.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> View attachment 884727
> 
> 
> If this is any breeder’s ideal Golden Retriever, RUN!


DK who that is but you are right- there is soooo much wrong there. So much.


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

I love the exuberance of the golden retriever. I do like the more controlled exuberance of the golden which I find to be more to my liking than for example the springy more frenetic exerburance of springer spaniels and working cocker spaniels. 

My UK golden retriever, who happens to be of a cream shade, would give those wanting a ‘calm’ nee lazy ‘English golden’ a heart attack Take today he had 3 x 1 hour walks. The morning one a fast paced energetic walk with ball throwing, a midday hours group doggy play date so lots of zooming around playing, then a calm sedate early evening walk.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> DK who that is but you are right- there is soooo much wrong there. So much.


A rather lovely young Pyrenees girl. I asked her owner if I could take a picture. She asked why and I said because unethical breeders are trying to make Golden Retrievers look like her girl. She was shocked and said please do. 

If a Golden is so lacking in breed type that it reads as a completely unrelated breed, well that is not a responsible breeder, period.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

CCoopz said:


> I love the exuberance of the golden retriever. I do like the more controlled exuberance of the golden which I find to be more to my liking than for example the springy more frenetic exerburance of springer spaniels and working cocker spaniels.
> 
> My UK golden retriever, who happens to be of a cream shade, would give those wanting a ‘calm’ nee lazy ‘English golden’ a heart attack Take today he had 3 x 1 hour walks. The morning one a fast paced energetic walk with ball throwing, a midday hours group doggy play date so lots of zooming around playing, then a calm sedate early evening walk.


They are all so different lol! One of my dogs is SO high energy and the other is my dads ptsd service dog and has been calm since birth😂


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Maddie_goldens said:


> They are all so different lol! One of my dogs is SO high energy and the other is my dads ptsd service dog and has been calm since birth😂


Really interested in your high energy dogs. Can you post the pedigree?


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

MintChip said:


> I am curious if the english cream goldens (esp the pure white ones) are really in fact Great Pyr mixes. They are advertised as being "calm" goldens.
> 
> The AKC breed description of a Great Pyr:
> 
> ...


There are plenty of them. You start noticing when people ask about why their GR has rear dew claws.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

SRW said:


> Really interested in your high energy dogs. Can you post the pedigree?





jake009 said:


> Hi,
> I am looking for a reputable English Cream Golden Retriever. Needs some help finding one.
> 
> English Cream Golden Retriever - I understand that this is not a separate breed but is still a Golden Retriever. I see a lot of posts across different GR forums that say that when breeders market with these terms they may not be ethical or reputable breeders. The English Cream Golden Retrievers are a different variant of the Golden Retriever Breed recognized and bred in Europe as opposed to the American variant. The variants differ in their body built, color, temperament, cancer possibility rate, life span.
> ...


I found the breeder for you!!! It took me quite a while to try and find them again, but I did!









Adult Goldens - Icewind Goldens






www.icewindgoldens.com


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

None of the Icewind animals have a correct and adequate cardiac certificate except the one male. All the females are quite lacking in the heart cert department and especially given the pedigrees, would be quite risky in the SAS area. see Icewind Goldens


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> None of the Icewind animals have a correct and adequate cardiac certificate except the one male. All the females are quite lacking in the heart cert department and especially given the pedigrees, would be quite risky in the SAS area. see Icewind Goldens


Better than 95% of “English” golden breeders. But I see what you’re saying. Just doing my best to stead in the right direction.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Better than 95% of “English” golden breeders. But I see what you’re saying. Just doing my best to stead in the right direction.


Looking back…. They charge WAY too much. And they don’t show their dogs. Just champion bloodlines. Not worth it in my opinion.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Looking back…. They charge WAY too much. And they don’t show their dogs. Just champion bloodlines. Not worth it in my opinion.


Dang it, oh well I'm really more interested in your upcoming breeding and very curious about the pedigree.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

SRW said:


> Dang it, oh well I'm really more interested in your upcoming breeding and very curious about the pedigree.


Me too


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Maddie_goldens said:


> Looking back…. They charge WAY too much. And they don’t show their dogs. Just champion bloodlines. Not worth it in my opinion.


As an educational for you, champion bloodline has meaning. In the loosest of definitions, EVERY dog has a CH bloodline. There is a CH back there, _somewhere,_ behind every single dog. As I believe I mentioned to you earlier, using the phrase 'Champion pedigree' or anything along those lines, without having made an AKC CH yourself (as IntCH or even UCH are more aligned with an AKC match and also have no real meaning- a CCA means more to any breed fancier) is a red flag from start to finish.
I hope this explanation is sufficiently educational to you. 
Don't use the phrase 'Champion Pedigree' unless you have earned it and have it.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Emmdenn said:


> Me too


I'm starting to think we might be OL on getting a pup out of this fabulous litter.


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## Maddie_goldens (Aug 1, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> As an educational for you, champion bloodline has meaning. In the loosest of definitions, EVERY dog has a CH bloodline. There is a CH back there, _somewhere,_ behind every single dog. As I believe I mentioned to you earlier, using the phrase 'Champion pedigree' or anything along those lines, without having made an AKC CH yourself (as IntCH or even UCH are more aligned with an AKC match and also have no real meaning- a CCA means more to any breed fancier) is a red flag from start to finish.
> I hope this explanation is sufficiently educational to you.
> Don't use the phrase 'Champion Pedigree' unless you have earned it and have it.


I was saying that THEY have “champion bloodlines” not me. While I do have champion bloodlines I do not go around a state it to everybody.


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## CCoopz (Jun 2, 2020)

Maddie_goldens said:


> I was saying that THEY have “champion bloodlines” not me. While I do have champion bloodlines I do not go around a state it to everybody.


Do you have a website for your Golden’s? Most breeders do. Be nice to see.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

SRW said:


> I'm starting to think we might be OL on getting a pup out of this fabulous litter.


Yeah….I’ve learned that when people claim they have all clearances and then refuse to prove it, they don’t actually have the clearances at all. Not saying she has anything to prove, but for reputable breeders this information is easy to find and public…so really it should be no big deal


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

I would think a breeder who truly tries to do things according to the GRCA COE would be proud of that and want to share their info, not look at it from a perspective of "needing to prove themselves".


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

FurdogDad said:


> I would think a breeder who truly tries to do things according to the GRCA COE would be proud of that and want to share their info, not look at it from a perspective of "needing to prove themselves".


That is exactly what an ethical breeder does.


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