# Breeder vent...frustrated!



## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

We are used to seeing vents from dissatisfied owners re: breeders. Well I am a frustrated breeder...how come I get emails from new puppy owners that clearly disregard advice and direction on the raising of *my* puppies. Then ask for help in fixing the problem :doh: We are expected to warranty for everything under the sun and are blamed when something goes wrong. I base my guidelines on yrs of trial and error and education of issues that may pop up. I take pride in the packets I send out and the fact that I am available 24/7 for tech support, _BUT_ I am getting to the point that I am asking myself "Is it even worth the effort" Yes I am having a "bad breeder day"


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## SoGolden (Jul 17, 2008)

what's the problem they are having with their pup?


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

SoGolden said:


> what's the problem they are having with their pup?


I think the puppy may be experiencing a bit of Pano ...that isn't what got my back up. In the middle of the email the owner stated taking the pup to the vet this sat for another LEPTO shot, I clearly state over and over that I do not want lepto given to my puppies in their puppy series...I only give lepto to my adults, I have seen puppies have vax reactions and die, yes DIE, and then I would be expected to replace the pup...my frustration is coming from other such incidences where owners clearly do the opposite of what I have advised them to do  This is just one example.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh, Tucker's breeder tried to help his previous owner to no avail. She worked with the Mom and even got her a trainer to help and an effort was not put forth. I'm so sorry you are going through this. I remember Rose and Kathy in tears when we drove away with Tucker. They were so upset to think they made the wrong choice for him the first time around. Tucker is my husband's heart dog. It's so wonderful to see how much they love each other. I love him to pieces too, but I see something very special between DH and Tucker.

As far as the shots, maybe the Vet had something to do with the owner going against your advice?


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Kimm said:


> As far as the shots, maybe the Vet had something to do with the owner going against your advice?


So I guess then the vets should warranty the pup?? Same with vets that are surgery happy and have puppies exrayed and on the table for surgery before the owners can even take a breath. What about vets that advise puppy food after I clearly state changing over to adult, or high protien diets, or early spay/neuters? yearly vaccines, chemical flea/tick prevention...The list is endless...we as breeders are between a rock and a hard spot. We are expected to offer warranties even when owners clearly do the opposite of what the warranty states :doh:


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

I can't imagine how frustrating that would be! I can say I just wish that the "breeder" we got Merlin from would have been so caring and offered "tech support" (love that!!) as you are. 

As for whether it's worth the effort, hopefully the better listening owners outnumber the ones with cottonballs in their ears. Try not to let it get you down! Your pups are gorgeous!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Gosh I'm sorry your having a rough one...
Are your preferences regarding vaccinations/food etc in your contract? 
If so, IMO youve done all you can do....there is no amount of hand-holding that is going to keep some folks content...
Is definately sounds frustrating.


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## elliejon11 (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear that you are having a bad day...some ppl. will just never learn to listen. you have yourself very gorgeous pups and hopefully like Merlins mom said that the good listeners outnumber the bad...Hope everything gets better for you soon..Gunner is sending out {{{Hugs}}} to you and your family


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Heather, I am so sorry but.... I completely understand. This thread took the words right out of my mouth. I am having a similar issues and have also been very upset these last couple days  So, yes, I too ask, is this really worth? Sometimes I wish I could control the quality I get on a litter and have only 2 or 3 puppies and have them all be show puppies   Its tough.


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## dogluver04 (Jul 5, 2008)

My breeder has very strict guidelines in her contract. and I have had my vet disagree with them, but im not going to do what the vet says just because they dont like it. everyb vtgx(cedar typing lol) everyone has their own views on things like when to spay, what vaccines to give. and everyone thinks they are right, expecially the vets. Im thinking the people were obviously told by the vet that this is neccessary and they shouldnt listen to you and they fell for it!! 

When I mentioned to my vet that Cedar will not be spayed until she is at least a year old she rudely asked " well is your breeder going to pay the extra money for a mature spay!?" its not about the money!! its about the health of the dog! Im not going to skip on things just because its too much money!

I hope that these people smarten up!!


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## z24pride (May 13, 2008)

I dont think you could have been more clearer in our interviews, and when we picked the pup up that Lepto shots are a huge no no!!!!
When i first read your title, i ws like, Uh Oh... I knew i shouldn't have been asking all the questions about going to adult food etc...... PHew!!
I think you need a time out with the Goldens!! lol, i just have one golden that always seems to melt away any frustration...you have like 15 goldens....


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

z24pride said:


> .. PHew!!
> I think you need a time out with the Goldens!! lol, i just have one golden that always seems to melt away any frustration...you have like 15 goldens....


after I wrote my post I was like uh oh I may have opened a big can of worms! maybe I should have just taken the dogs for a run! lol ...they do indeed bring me back to what is important!! and hey I only have 7+ goldens : the 3 pups cannot be classified as 3 just yet!  and 15...no way ho say :no: thanks Ash for letting me know I am not the only one :smooch:


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

There were certain things my breeder had stated that should and should not be done with my pup when it came to veterinary care. I went into the vet's office armed with the puppy and a pile of documents for our first visit with copies to be put in his file. We talked through everything that was on that list and I listened to my vet's reasoning as to why he thought differently on certain items. Fortunately, they were mostly on the same page and he was willing to work with me. I can see how this could be intimidating for a new puppy owner or someone that didn't have an established relationship with their vet.

I hope the number of owners that listen to and respect your advice outweighs those that don't. I have a great deal of respect for any breeder that breeds responsibly and is willing to stand behind their puppies. I wish more people had that respect.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I can honestly say that I have never experienced this frustration. (knock on wood). I don't have a lot of litters, and I screen potential buyers to death (as I insist they do me, as well.) I have never not been confident that those who do get a puppy are not going to be a good match all the way around. So far, it's worked out that way.

I did read an interesting post on another list. The jist of it beiing this - Why do breeders charge more for a show puppy than a pet, when the "pet people" are so much more "high maintenance"? SO much more time is spent with "pet people" over the life of their puppy than with "show people", that breeders should charge them MORE simply to be able to cover some of their time.

Not saying I necessarily agree, but it was a new perspective.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

My personal opinion is that if you go against what the contract states, the pup shouldn't be warrantied. I also think the vet probably does have something to do with it and perhaps a letter to them might be in order just stating that it is in the contract between you and the owner of this pup that it not receive Lepto until it is an adult and that such a decision will cause your warranty on that pup to be null and void and that if they have any concerns, you can be reached at your phone number. 

I'm the type of person that takes those sorts of things very seriously, to the point that my breeders laugh at me on a regular basis and call me over paranoid, but I dont care. They are good friends of mine now and always comment that they wish all their puppy buyers were as concientious. I cant imagine going against their advice on something like that and I absolutely understand your frustration. I'm sure it comes up with all breeders, I can just only hope that when it happens to me, its not over something life threatening to the dog. BJ


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> My personal opinion is that if you go against what the contract states, the pup shouldn't be warrantied. I also think the vet probably does have something to do with it and perhaps a letter to them might be in order just stating that it is in the contract between you and the owner of this pup that it not receive Lepto until it is an adult and that such a decision will cause your warranty on that pup to be null and void and that if they have any concerns, you can be reached at your phone number.


I hate that my contract now contains 4 pages :uhoh: it seems there is always something new to add ...sigh ...and don't all vets think breeders are just NUTS!! :


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

arcane said:


> I hate that my contract now contains 4 pages :uhoh: it seems there is always something new to add ...sigh ...and don't all vets think breeders are just NUTS!! :


LOL.... true enough. I'm sure mine thinks I am! But I also think that sometimes we're all more educated than they are. My vet, for example, doesn't believe that limber tail could possibly be caused by swimming in a cold lake. Somedays I just shake my head, but at the end of the day, they're there. As for the 4 pages... ROFL... I know one breeder that her contract is like reading a book, literally. You go to visit the puppies at 5 weeks, she hands you this novel and says "go home and read this and if you have any questions, call me". Same thing though... she's been doing it for like 30 yrs or something and there is always something that comes up to add. But I also believe that if you dont understand why something is there or dont agree with it, go find another breeder. But by signing that paper, you are agreeing to what is set forth. I hope that these people dont cause you too much sleep lost. BJ


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I agree with BJ. If the buyer doesn't agree with the contract , they shouldn't sign it and go elsewhere for a pup. If there is something the buyer has a problem with , they should discuss it with the breeder. Hopefully the breeder will be willing to explain their reasoning. If not, I would go elsewhere also.

Also I liked what someone previously said about discussing the contract with his vet BEFORE getting the dog or signing.

There are some things that should be required /deal breakers(like the lepto thing) in the contract and others that should be suggestions.(like what to feed) That's just my opinion.

Sorry you are having this problem, Heather. They were very lucky to get one of your wonderful pups.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

arcane said:


> I hate that my contract now contains 4 pages :uhoh: it seems there is always something new to add ...sigh ...and don't all vets think breeders are just NUTS!! :


 
4 pages?! I cannot imagine... Mine is a page long. My feeding and vaccination recommendations are on separate sheets. I _highly recommend_ particular things (ie food, vaccination schedules, excercise, etc), give my reasons why, and discuss with the buyer how it's worked for me and my hopes for what they will experience. It is a very standard contract, reviewed by my attorney, and doesn't tie me OR the buyer up in knots, while at the same time protecting THE PUPPY.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> 4 pages?! I cannot imagine... Mine is a page long. My feeding and vaccination recommendations are on separate sheets. I _highly recommend_ particular things (ie food, vaccination schedules, excercise, etc), give my reasons why, and discuss with the buyer how it's worked for me and my hopes for what they will experience. It is a very standard contract, reviewed by my attorney, and doesn't tie me OR the buyer up in knots, while at the same time protecting THE PUPPY.


I would LOVE to see it


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

arcane said:


> I would LOVE to see it


I'll get a copy to you.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Debles said:


> I agree with BJ. If the buyer doesn't agree with the contract , they shouldn't sign it and go elsewhere for a pup. If there is something the buyer has a problem with , they should discuss it with the breeder. Hopefully the breeder will be willing to explain their reasoning. If not, I would go elsewhere also.


this is the frustration, buyers are very informed of my reasoning in regard to lepto, its not something I just throw at them, after I questioned this purchaser following her email she says "oh I guess I made a mistake getting the lepto" did she even read the contract or instructions in her puppy packet?? For pete's sake we discuss this at my kitchen table when they are signing the paperwork, do they even hear what I am saying? I am not saying this isn't a good home...they are...just makes me wonder :thinking:


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I don't think that other breeders here nor do I "just give a pup to anyone". Although, I can only speak for myself. My screening and time spent is very extensive. Thats what makes it so difficult when they make a choice not supported my be and allow "pet vets" and others give them "ideas and advice" that conflicts with mine. Its disappointing to say the least. To say that one if having issues because they have not screened a buyer properly is unfair.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

arcane said:


> So I guess then the vets should warranty the pup?? Same with vets that are surgery happy and have puppies exrayed and on the table for surgery before the owners can even take a breath. What about vets that advise puppy food after I clearly state changing over to adult, or high protien diets, or early spay/neuters? yearly vaccines, chemical flea/tick prevention...The list is endless...we as breeders are between a rock and a hard spot. We are expected to offer warranties even when owners clearly do the opposite of what the warranty states :doh:


I didn't mean it to sound like an accusation. Sorry. We have one vet in the practice that gets upset with some breeders requests. As we all know, one has to question even what our doctors suggest at times. 

As for the warranties, I'd just add a clause that states if they don't follow your recommendations, the contract is null and void. If they don't like the warranty they should go elsewhere. I'm sure that is easier said than done.

I beginning to think I'm on a breeders sh** list...


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## donnaj03 (Jan 30, 2008)

*I hear you Heather,*

*Or..you get an email like below and then one I got the other day asking how much I want for one of my items. UGH!!! Items..I don't have items..I have beautiful golden retriever babies.*



*And.. "Dog"?????*

*Has your dog had the puppies yet? I am interested in possible getting a female because the are smaller in size. How much does the mother weigh? *

*I know, it's so frustrating sometime's. *

*I remember placing a puppy with a lawyer and his wife was a nurse. I recommended crate training of course. He said we will try it but they never did.. They had a lady coming in to take him out at lunch and the husband was home by 3 or 4. Well sir, he called me what seemed like 50 time's the first month. His last phone call we were eating supper and I just picked up the phone and said..." WHat now" because I knew he was going to complain about something. *
*He said.."do you know what this puppy did today"..."no" I said".. He said he got over the gate to the dining room and chewed on my wifes good living room table leg" !!! By this time I had had enough. So..I said to him..*
*"You are a lawyer right"...YESssssssss came the reply...I said.."can you answer me one question"..YEssssssss..." how the hell did the table leg get in the crate"!!! There was no response..I said I rest my case!!!*

*I said I want you to return the puppy due to not looking after him properly and numerous phone calls that lead me to believe he is in danger through-out the day. He then said he was very sorry and that he would go get a crate and start over. I said well good for you for finally listening to me. I didn't care if he was a lawyer or a judge. lol. I did hear from them a week later and things were all together different and they did come to visit in the summer. All is well. *

*Donna.*


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> I don't think that other breeders here nor do I "just give a pup to anyone". Although, I can only speak for myself. My screening and time spent is very extensive. Thats what makes it so difficult when they make a choice not supported my be and allow "pet vets" and others give them "ideas and advice" that conflicts with mine. Its disappointing to say the least. To say that one if having issues because they have not screened a buyer properly is unfair.


Did someone say that?


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Kimm said:


> As for the warranties, I'd just add a clause that states if they don't follow your recommendations, the contract is null and void. If they don't like the warranty they should go elsewhere. I'm sure that is easier said than done.


I am waiting for PG's contract..if she can cover everything on one page then perhaps I'm just doing something wrong


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I am not a breeder, but I experience this placing rescues.

It's usually behavior stuff. For example (super simplified) I'll say, "This dog has submissive urination issues if you talk super high pitched to her before you let her out in the morning or after a long time alone... OR if you yell at her... so when you get home/wake up, do not speak to her. Let her right outside, and after she pees, which she will right away, then make a BIG fuss and greet her. If you do it this way, she'll never pee in your house."

New owner calls three days later to say the dog pees every time they come home, and come to find out they're "Heyyy baby girl.... blah blah blah" every time they walk in the door. 

Something like that can be fixed if they're willing to take the advice I gave them PRINTED out in the first place.

I also agree vets give conflicting advice, and I have had to convince owners of rescues to feed different or more or less food, or whatever, because a vet switched them and the dog became obese or its allergies I'd worked so hard to get rid of came right back.

Very annoying. Sorry you're dealing with it- must be far worse with expensive baby puppies involved, too.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Kimm said:


> I beginning to think I'm on a breeders sh** list...


why do you think that:gotme: from this thread or another breeder??


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

arcane said:


> We are used to seeing vents from dissatisfied owners re: breeders. Well I am a frustrated breeder...how come I get emails from new puppy owners that clearly disregard advice and direction on the raising of *my* puppies. Then ask for help in fixing the problem :doh: We are expected to warranty for everything under the sun and are blamed when something goes wrong. I base my guidelines on yrs of trial and error and education of issues that may pop up. I take pride in the packets I send out and the fact that I am available 24/7 for tech support, _BUT_ I am getting to the point that I am asking myself "Is it even worth the effort" Yes I am having a "bad breeder day"


I know how you feel way tooo much. One of the many reasons I decided to give it up.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

donnaj03 said:


> *He said.."do you know what this puppy did today"..."no" I said".. He said he got over the gate to the dining room and chewed on my wifes good living room table leg" !!! By this time I had had enough. So..I said to him..*
> *"You are a lawyer right"...YESssssssss came the reply...I said.."can you answer me one question"..YEssssssss..." how the hell did the table leg get in the crate"!!! There was no response..I said I rest my case!!!*


now that had me rotflmao:roflmao::appl:


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

arcane said:


> why do you think that:gotme: from this thread or another breeder??


It isn't life or death, so let's just kiss it up to God and let it go...


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

donnaj03 said:


> *I hear you Heather,*
> 
> *Or..you get an email like below and then one I got the other day asking how much I want for one of my items. UGH!!! Items..I don't have items..I have beautiful golden retriever babies.*
> 
> ...


OMG!!!! They come in all forms!


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## Thor0918 (Feb 28, 2008)

donnaj03 said:


> *"how the hell did the table leg get in the crate"!!! *
> 
> 
> Now that was the perfect response!! I wish I had thought of it!! Good for you!:bowl:


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> I don't think that other breeders here nor do I "just give a pup to anyone". Although, I can only speak for myself. My screening and time spent is very extensive. Thats what makes it so difficult when they make a choice not supported my be and allow "pet vets" and others give them "ideas and advice" that conflicts with mine. Its disappointing to say the least. To say that one if having issues because they have not screened a buyer properly is unfair.


I did not say that at all, Ash. I was stating that I have not experienced the issue you and Heather have, and that I have been lucky not to. My contract is very simple, and perhaps by trying to cover every single thing that can possibly come up, it is complicating things. I don't know. As far as vets, again, I have been very fortunate to have worked closely with the providers in my area, they know me, they recommend me both for puppies and for training, and they are very inclined to concede to what I recommend for my puppies. (With the exception of one vet, that is.) On the other hand, I try not to be completely rigid in my contract, and don't try to dictate everything that is done with my puppies - there has to be room for compromise, as long as the best interest of the puppy is foremost.
I know that both you and Heather, and most of the breeders here, are VERY careful about who you sell to, and was in no way suggesting otherwise.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

I am so sorry you have to go through this, but you've done anything possible to prevent something bad from happening. I am sure the family meant the best for their puppy and decided to trust the vet, it's a natural impulse when you have a puppy.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I trust my breeder a hundred times more than any vet. One vet tried to patronize me, I told her I won't do as she says and that I know EXACTLY what I am doing. She was telling me it was ok to switch the manufacturer of the vaccines, when it was clearly stated by the manufacturers of our particular vaccines that they should not be switched/mixed with others. Breeder told me the same thing by the way. 
She also had a lot of nerve to tell me I could enter her office, when I asked her whether it was ok and SAFE for us to go in. Emma did not have all vaccines by then and I did not want to expose her to any dreadful disease. Soon enough after I entered, I felt like fainting when I saw a puppy dying about 10 or 12 feet away from MY BABY. I felt like killing her that very moment. 
And after the bad experience with 5 other vets who couldn't tell for sure what was wrong with Emma I (not this Emma) I have all reasons to disregard and distrust anything they say. Breeder's opinion always comes first for me.

I am really sorry people do not realize how much knowledge a breeder has, and how they love the pups they give to families. Most vets have hidden agendas, like a contract with a certain food company (so they sell it against breeder's advice) and so on. At least the ones I had met so far had. And I am kinda running out of options.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

I trust my vet who I have gone to for the past 20 years...And I trust my breeder. They do not always agree...then I try to research and evaluate both of their advice and make the best decision I can for my puppies. The same as I would and have done for my own children, when faced with differing opinions. As a nurse and my husband as physician, we know there always differing opinions of caring people.

But of course if I go against my breeder's advice I would not think they are responsible for any adverse effects of my chosen treatment.

Sherrie


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## Phoebe (Feb 8, 2006)

It doesn't just happen to breeders. I'm a foster mom and am very choosy about who adopts my fosters. I explain all health care, food, grooming, training, etc...it's included in the contract, I also send an extensive letter explaining everything before they even speak with me, and I go through each item in the contract when people adopt...and I swear, sometimes it all goes in one ear and right out the other.

When I have purchased a puppy from a breeder, I've always felt that the perk of going to a breeder is for the breeder's expertise and consider that part of the cost of the puppy. I followed Phoebe's breeder's contract to the letter, despite the negative comments from my vet. 

I hope this little vent helped. I get frustrated with some of my adoptive homes too, but after I take a deep breath and remember all the wonderful things about the family that convinced me to let them adopt my foster, I know that it's worth explaining over and over again for the health and welfare of the dog, the family and my peace of mind.


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## Dinsdale (Feb 26, 2008)

My wife and I are both lawyers (and ultra-low maintenance dog buyers). We have seen many contracts from breeders, and every single one was woefully deficient as a legal document, and largely unenforceable as written.

Just because your contract is long, does not mean it is good.

I think in many cases it is due to breeders being unwilling to treat their puppies as a good, a thing, a commodity - which is all that a puppy is under the law. Yes, there are all kinds of emotions and whatnot involved in the breeding, sale, purchase, and raising of a dog. But those are largely irrelevant for legal purposes.

Just my opinion.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Dinsdale said:


> My wife and I are both lawyers (and ultra-low maintenance dog buyers). We have seen many contracts from breeders, and every single one was woefully deficient as a legal document, and largely unenforceable as written.
> 
> Just because your contract is long, does not mean it is good.
> 
> ...


My Vet told me the same thing. I was so upset when we found out Shadow had the HD and he said, Kim, there is not much you can do about it. We do have lemon laws, but heck, I wasn't giving him back...


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## Diesel's Mom (Oct 17, 2008)

Wow, after reading this post I wish I had a breeder that was half as concerned as the breeders on here. The breeder I got my puppy from did not ask me any questions or didn't tell me anything about going to the vet or anything. I got a health contract, litter certificate, and AKC registration papers that's the only things he gave. I asked the questions. I did the research, I bought the pedigree on sire and dam...and bought the book Golden retrievers for dummies. He just told me if I didn't want the dog no matter what age he would take it back, but that will never happen. I sent an e-mail letting him know how the puppy doing but never got a reply back. 

It's okay to vent....from what I have read you seem like a concerned breeder, and that's a GREAT thing  Some people just don't realize the responsibilities that come with a puppy dog. I love love love dogs I know I will definitely have more than one golden.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

donnaj03 said:


> *" how the hell did the table leg get in the crate"!!!*
> 
> *Donna.*


ROFL.... I'm soooo going to have to remember that one! Hugs to you and the babies, BJ & the girls


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## windfair (Jul 19, 2008)

*Some People Never Listen...*

Sorry about your day - it sounds very frustrating. You are trying to do the right thing and obviously have the experience and knowledge to be giving sound advice. But, I can bet you that it doesn't matter how long or short your contract is, the people who don't read it, won't read it no matter what you do to it. I have found that some people just don't read anything you give them or listen to anything you have to say. It isn't personal, they probably don't listen to their doctor's advice (which they have to pay a lot for), their veterinarian's advice (also paid for), their dentist (very highly paid for), their spouse, heck...it probably started with not listening to their parents! 

On the other hand, there are the people who will appreciate all the information you give them, copy the contract and put at least one in a safe place and be forever grateful that they had such a good breeder!


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

WOW Diesel's Mom..we must have gotten our sweet pups from the same breeder..or from relatives..I found Misty's breeder on the internet..UGH didnt get anymore paperwork than you did..would not return emails until Isaid someone I knew was looking for a golden puppy...I always felt bad that they didnt care...but I love Misty and whatever is...is...we wouldnt change her for the world. I guess shes better off with us than that "breeder"...Im sure its the same with you and your puppy!


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## Sadiesdream (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm not a breeder, but my mother in law is a national recognized Yorkshire Terrier breeder. Her dogs have came from all over the world. To sit and hear her talk about the crap that goes on in the breeder world, makes me laugh and just wonder how in the crap do these people manage to take care of a dog. As for vets, honestly, I know they're smart, they went to college for the education. But when it comes to my dogs. I'm paying them for a service. I don't want them to tell me how to take care of my dog. I don't want them to force meds on my dogs. Sounds crazy and insane but just how I feel. I think alot of people force ALOT of chemicals into their dogs that honestly isn't needed. And because of that when our dogs DOhappen to catch a certain bacteria or disease, they've already built up a stringer immunitie to the drugs that in the start would've taken care of the problem. Rabie shots yes, every pet should get it, and theres a few others to, but seriously I'm not sure if you guys have noticed but every year the vet recommends a new drug on the market. Oh well your dog has had these but what about the justforsh*ts k9 shot?!?! It's only $59 and it'll last for one year. It'll protect him from sleep walking. The drug market for pets is the EXACT SAME that exists for humans. To them its not always about helping your animals, its about putting more money in their pockets even if it doesn't help your pets. 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not some rights activists, anti-veterinarian person. My point of the rant was vets should quit trying to squeeze money out of us for crap our pets don't need in the first place. Before their were all these meds, I'm sure majority of pets lived alot healthier, happier lives, and I wouldn't be surprised that alot of these vaccines and meds we push down our pets thoats because the vet said so, isn't partly to blame for alot of the health problems we find today in our pets.

Rant Over:hide:


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## Diesel's Mom (Oct 17, 2008)

amy22 said:


> WOW Diesel's Mom..we must have gotten our sweet pups from the same breeder..or from relatives..I found Misty's breeder on the internet..UGH didnt get anymore paperwork than you did..would not return emails until Isaid someone I knew was looking for a golden puppy...I always felt bad that they didnt care...but I love Misty and whatever is...is...we wouldnt change her for the world. I guess shes better off with us than that "breeder"...Im sure its the same with you and your puppy!


 
Yes, I feel bad too....I dont understand how can they not care but I guess it's a money thing for them.


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## jonesyboy (Sep 20, 2008)

I have no experience with selecting a breeder or buying a puppy so this whole discussion boggles my mind. I'm never going to breed or show a dog so I will allways adopt a rescue.

If I was ever going to buy a dog I would look for a quality breeder because the last thing I want is for even a penny of my money to go to a puppy mill. I would want health information on the parents, etc... to ensure the best odds of getting a healthy puppy. But once I brought the dog home I view it like adopting a child. If I got unlucky and the dog ended up with bad hips or some other problem I would never dream of returning it. How do you return a part of your family because it's sick or has a problem???? I find that incomprehensible.

Unfortunately though the stricter breeders are about who they let adopt their dogs, the more likely puppy mills and pet stores will thrive. Irresponsible people who want a certain type of dog will find a place to get one.


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I dont know how our "breeders" can be like that, Diesel's Mom...but we have our sweet dogs and I guess it happened like that for a reason..plus, I didnt find thisnforum till after I got Misty and I didnt know any better. 
PS I love the name Diesel.. thats my son's dogs name and hes a sweetheart!!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

IMHO these type of people you are all describing don't deserve to be referred to as a "Breeder". Thats so unfortunate to hear of these people and the way they do things.


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## Diesel's Mom (Oct 17, 2008)

amy22 said:


> I dont know how our "breeders" can be like that, Diesel's Mom...but we have our sweet dogs and I guess it happened like that for a reason..plus, I didnt find thisnforum till after I got Misty and I didnt know any better.
> PS I love the name Diesel.. thats my son's dogs name and hes a sweetheart!!


 
I do believe things happen for a reason. I love my dog and I would never think of ever giving him up for any reason, he is my newest addition to my family  My little girl is going to be one on the 19th and Diesel is like her best friend he follows her around all over. I will post some new pics soon. He is growing fast.


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## Diesel's Mom (Oct 17, 2008)

jonesyboy said:


> I have no experience with selecting a breeder or buying a puppy so this whole discussion boggles my mind. I'm never going to breed or show a dog so I will allways adopt a rescue.
> 
> If I was ever going to buy a dog I would look for a quality breeder because the last thing I want is for even a penny of my money to go to a puppy mill. I would want health information on the parents, etc... to ensure the best odds of getting a healthy puppy. But once I brought the dog home I view it like adopting a child. If I got unlucky and the dog ended up with bad hips or some other problem I would never dream of returning it. How do you return a part of your family because it's sick or has a problem???? I find that incomprehensible.
> 
> Unfortunately though the stricter breeders are about who they let adopt their dogs, the more likely puppy mills and pet stores will thrive. Irresponsible people who want a certain type of dog will find a place to get one.


I would never think about returning my dog for any reason Diesel is part of my family and I will do whatever I have to in order to make sure he lives a happy and healthy life. My husband, four kids and me are very attached. Diesel is a sweetheart.


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## Diesel's Mom (Oct 17, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> 4 pages?! I cannot imagine... Mine is a page long. My feeding and vaccination recommendations are on separate sheets. *I highly recommend particular things (ie food, vaccination schedules, excercise, etc),* give my reasons why, and discuss with the buyer how it's worked for me and my hopes for what they will experience. It is a very standard contract, reviewed by my attorney, and doesn't tie me OR the buyer up in knots, while at the same time protecting THE PUPPY.


Hey, can you please give me some advice. I thought about posting a question about the vaccinations. When I got Diesel he was given his six week vaccination: distemper-hepatitis(CAV-2), canine parvovirus, parainfluenza, leptospirosis, coronavirus. On the health record it also show deworm nemex. He was given his vacs on 10/21 the vet scheduled me to go for his second set on the 11/18. Is there any shots that he should not be given, or should?? I brought Diesel in for a health check and they did give me science diet, but the breeder had him on purina puppy chow, so that's what I kept him on....Should I switch? Is science diet better??I could really use some of y'all good breeders recommendations. I want whats best for my puppy. Thanks


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Diesel's Mom said:


> Hey, can you please give me some advice. I thought about posting a question about the vaccinations. When I got Diesel he was given his six week vaccination: distemper-hepatitis(CAV-2), canine parvovirus, parainfluenza, leptospirosis, coronavirus. On the health record it also show deworm nemex. He was given his vacs on 10/21 the vet scheduled me to go for his second set on the 11/18. Is there any shots that he should not be given, or should?? I brought Diesel in for a health check and they did give me science diet, but the breeder had him on purina puppy chow, so that's what I kept him on....Should I switch? Is science diet better??I could really use some of y'all good breeders recommendations. I want whats best for my puppy. Thanks


Personally, I dont like either, but that is only my opinion. Vets dont have a CLUE when it comes to nutrition unless they have taken it upon themselves to do their own research. That said, I have fed my girls Purina (just not the chow line... the proplan line). My dad used to work for Rolston Purina though and he will never feed anything but Purina. But I also believe that what Purina does for the dog community as a whole is underrecognized and they really do care about pets. As for Science Diet, I never have and probably never will be a fan. All of that said, it probably doesn't particularly matter what brand of food you feed, provided your dog does well on it. Granted, I also will no longer feed puppies "puppy food"... whole other long list of reasons there though. 

Look at your dogs feet and that will tell you a lot about whether the food is working for them or not. They should be tight, rounded and well arched, like a cats foot. If they are flat and/or splayed, you need to switch. What do the inside of the ears look like? If they are waxy and dirty and you are constantly cleaning them, time to switch. If they are clean and dont smell like yeast, you're okay. Is his coat nice and shiny and healthy, or dry and dull? Another indication that what you're feeding might not be working for him. 

I'm not so well versed on the vaccines... I just usually go with what my vet tells me. He advocates a 3 yr plan, so my dogs get their puppy series, 1 yr boosters and then after that (with the exception of breeding bitches), only get vaccinated every 3 yrs, including rabies. The exception with the breeding bitches is that they pass their immunity onto the puppies, so we've decided that its best to still vaccinate them yearly because we want their immunity as high as it can be for those babies. I'm not sure if that will help or not... BJ & the girls


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Thank you fro the information Kohanagold, I appreciate it as I dont have any contact with my dogs "breeder" either.


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## Susan6953 (Jun 9, 2008)

I hate to admit this, and now I'll never get an Arcane puppy, but it is hard for some people to stand up to a vet. It wasn't in my contract but I had read up on it and decided I didn't want my puppy to get rabies vaccine the same time he got distemper/parvo but before the vet even came in the assistant came in with bath vaccines drawn up. I felt like I shouldn't "waste" the vaccine so I didn't say anything.

Afterwards I felt terrible that I hadn't stood up for what I thought was best for my baby, but I was intimidated. Luckily she (the vet) was OK with waiting until he's a year old to neuter and that is in the contract.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Susan6953 said:


> I hate to admit this, and now I'll never get an Arcane puppy, but it is hard for some people to stand up to a vet.


LOL Susan I am not totally unbendable!!! I as PG mentioned, offer my advice and reasoning behind it ...I have a relationship with my vet, where she knows prior to visits, what I do and do not do, and why ...remember they work for you. My puppies are more important to me than perhaps pee-ing her off.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> Look at your dogs feet and that will tell you a lot about whether the food is working for them or not. They should be tight, rounded and well arched, like a cats foot. If they are flat and/or splayed, you need to switch.


what does food have to do with this? A good foot is born not made? I am confused


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

arcane said:


> what does food have to do with this? A good foot is born not made? I am confused


I also questions quite a bit of that statement, as much of what was stated as being food related can more often be related to structural and medical issues (ie thyroidism).
It is no secret that I a a big fan of Pro Plan products (with the exception of their little "shredded blends" experiment:doh and have never had better coats and overall health and condition as I have had with Pro Plan.

It would take pretty serious malnutrition for a dog with otherwise structurally good feet to splay as described, IMO.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

arcane said:


> what does food have to do with this? A good foot is born not made? I am confused


I agree... the foot is genetic- though a good foot can be ruined by no exercise and a bad foot can be improved with exercise. Food would have nothing to do with it.

However, food (and exercise) can cure ear and coat issues for sure.


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## Susan6953 (Jun 9, 2008)

Luckily Jamie is fine and I am determined to be more assertive next time. We live on an 800 acre Boy Scout camp and the vet is suggesting lepto at 6 mos; what do you think about that?


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## historicprim (Nov 24, 2007)

arcane said:


> We are used to seeing vents from dissatisfied owners re: breeders. Well I am a frustrated breeder...how come I get emails from new puppy owners that clearly disregard advice and direction on the raising of *my* puppies. Then ask for help in fixing the problem :doh: We are expected to warranty for everything under the sun and are blamed when something goes wrong. I base my guidelines on yrs of trial and error and education of issues that may pop up. I take pride in the packets I send out and the fact that I am available 24/7 for tech support, _BUT_ I am getting to the point that I am asking myself "Is it even worth the effort" Yes I am having a "bad breeder day"


Its okay to have a bad day or two! 
I had an experience a couple years ago with a family who bought one of my pups. We spent several hrs 4 different days with them going over every little detail, since the wife never raised a puppy.
I don't know how many times I told them, no rawhides, bullysticks or anything the puppy could chock or upset her tummy on. Well dont you know I get a call Christmas morning, that they were at the vet Christmas eve with the pup who had bad diarhea and throwing up. First thing I asked was are you giving her something different, she said only a hard chewy stick (pressed rawhide) Anyway, after they spent $1,200 dollars for Vet bills, they finally figured out I knew what I was talking about.
Makes you want to pull your hair out...LOL


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## historicprim (Nov 24, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I also questions quite a bit of that statement, as much of what was stated as being food related can more often be related to structural and medical issues (ie thyroidism).
> It is no secret that I a a big fan of Pro Plan products (with the exception of their little "shredded blends" experiment:doh and have never had better coats and overall health and condition as I have had with Pro Plan.
> 
> It would take pretty serious malnutrition for a dog with otherwise structurally good feet to splay as described, IMO.


 
Also I would like to add, living on concrete will also cause a dogs foot to splay.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

historicprim said:


> Also I would like to add, living on concrete will also cause a dogs foot to splay.


If they are on it 24/7, with no variable surfaces, maybe. My runs are concrete and I have never had anything other than tight feet. Often, what are viewed as splayed feet are actually long toes.
Excessively long toenails can also cause a foot to splay.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Susan6953 said:


> Luckily Jamie is fine and I am determined to be more assertive next time. We live on an 800 acre Boy Scout camp and the vet is suggesting lepto at 6 mos; what do you think about that?


I personally don't like the lepto portion of the vaccine at all. BUT if it is prevalent in your area, it's not in mine, you have to weigh the risks with the benefits. I only give lepto to mine after their 1st yr booster.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Excessively long toenails can also cause a foot to splay.


I agree, my beloved Adi had awesome feet as a youngster, nice tight cat feet, she however detests having her nails done, and as a result her foot isn't what it once was, as well, its hard to groom properly when the dang nails get in the way!!! her only vice


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Perhaps I should clarify... its not just a splayed foot but a flat foot. Flat feet are caused by the ligaments growing too quickly for the little bones in the foot to support. It can only be corrected while the dog is a puppy and before the growth plates have closed. I guess there are differing opinions on what makes a good foot, but in the dogs that I have seen, if you switch them from a diet that isn't working for them (generally puppy food) to a diet that is better for their sustained growth, their feet improve. If you continue to feed a food that isn't working for them until after the growth plates close, there is no fixing it. You generally see it when the front feet are flatter than the rear, or vice versa. I agree there are many things that can cause splaying in feet, but I do agree that of the number of factors that contribute, diet is one of them. It also depends on your definition of a "good" foot.... For me, a good foot isn't flat and all 4 feet are uniform, and flat feet are generally the first sign that a dog isn't doing well on the food their being fed while they are still growing (generally before environmental factors have a chance to create an impact). 

I didn't come up with this all on my own. The reason I started looking at feet (and structure as a whole) as a reflection of nutrition is due to Pat Hastings and her seminars and research and the results she's gotten by switching puppies to foods that work better for them. She and her late husband evaluated 250+ litters/yr so for me, its not just some fly by night operation and findings. If you ever have the opportunity to listen to her, it is well worth the money. BJ


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> Perhaps I should clarify... its not just a splayed foot but a flat foot. Flat feet are caused by the ligaments growing too quickly for the little bones in the foot to support. It can only be corrected while the dog is a puppy and before the growth plates have closed. I guess there are differing opinions on what makes a good foot, but in the dogs that I have seen, if you switch them from a diet that isn't working for them (generally puppy food) to a diet that is better for their sustained growth, their feet improve. If you continue to feed a food that isn't working for them until after the growth plates close, there is no fixing it. You generally see it when the front feet are flatter than the rear, or vice versa. I agree there are many things that can cause splaying in feet, but I do agree that of the number of factors that contribute, diet is one of them. It also depends on your definition of a "good" foot.... For me, a good foot isn't flat and all 4 feet are uniform, and flat feet are generally the first sign that a dog isn't doing well on the food their being fed while they are still growing (generally before environmental factors have a chance to create an impact).
> 
> I didn't come up with this all on my own. The reason I started looking at feet (and structure as a whole) as a reflection of nutrition is due to Pat Hastings and her seminars and research and the results she's gotten by switching puppies to foods that work better for them. She and her late husband evaluated 250+ litters/yr so for me, its not just some fly by night operation and findings. If you ever have the opportunity to listen to her, it is well worth the money. BJ


"250+litters/yr" ??? 


I do admire Pat, and am good friends with her colleague, Dr. Shereen Farber. I don't necessarily believe every thing that she says. (There is a discussion right now about the relationship of "slipped hocks" and ACL injuries, and Pat's belief has been mentioned, and largely disbelieved.) Don't get me wrong, I pay attention to what she says even if I don't blindly accept everything as gospel. 

I am somewhat of a "foot freak". In fact, Lyric's first litter was to Asterling's Sunbeam Tiger, who I always said had "sensible shoes" - the tighest, roundest feet I have ever seen. The litter theme was "Shoes".  Good feet are, for the most part, genetic.  Good nutrition will only make a foot as good as it is genetically capable of being. 

It is exceptionally rare to see 4 uniform feet. Rear feet are typically smaller than front feet, and the front feet do bear more weight than the rear. A good foot to me is of course, not flat. Nor are toes long, or discernably separated.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

"250+ litters/yr" meaning the number the Hasting's evaluate, NOT that they have evaluated "FOR YOU", right? I'm tired, and have been scratching my head over THAT one!


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

No, not for 250+ FOR ME.... the for me part was just saying that for me, its not just some fly by night, self proclaimed expert... she has the experience to back it up. I'm not saying I blindly accept everything she says as gospel or agree totally with everything she says either, but that she does make a lot of good points about a lot of things. I didn't just dream it up one night when I was bored... the conclusion was drawn from somewhere. I do agree that you cant make something better than it was destined to be by nutrition, but I do think you can take something that is otherwise destined to be good and completely distroy it with nutrition. And I do believe that you can see the effects of poor nutrition on a dogs foot. Perhaps some dont agree, and that's fine, but that is my opinion and its not something I just pulled out of nowhere. BJ


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> No, not for 250+ FOR ME.... the for me part was just saying that for me, its not just some fly by night, self proclaimed expert... she has the experience to back it up. I'm not saying I blindly accept everything she says as gospel or agree totally with everything she says either, but that she does make a lot of good points about a lot of things. I didn't just dream it up one night when I was bored... the conclusion was drawn from somewhere. I do agree that you cant make something better than it was destined to be by nutrition, but I do think you can take something that is otherwise destined to be good and completely distroy it with nutrition. And I do believe that you can see the effects of poor nutrition on a dogs foot. Perhaps some dont agree, and that's fine, but that is my opinion and its not something I just pulled out of nowhere. BJ


HAHAHA! After scratching my head, and reading it while trying not to let my eyes cross, I figured that! :doh: (I need sleep, to be sure!)

I think Pat makes a lot of sense on a lot of things. As I said, I admire her. 
Nutrition is _extremely _important, but from a lot of years of experience, I will say that I have seen _very _few dogs who have had a severe enough nutritional deficit to have caused poor feet, or to otherwise destroy a dog that is genetically structurally sound . A dog would have to be terribly malnourished to get to that point. There are phases that some puppies go through where they are down at the pasterns and their feet flatten somewhat, but they outgrow it.
I will be speaking with Shereen (she has Crew's sister) and I'll get her take on this, too. It's an interesting debate.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Ah, but its not so much a deficit... at least in what I've seen. Its probably more accurately the opposite, being too much of a good thing. I dont mean the dog is malnourished to cause these sorts of problems (it would actually probably cause less of a structural issue if the dog were underfed?). Its this very reason that I am nervous about feeding puppy food and prefer to have them on adult pretty much from the beginning. BJ


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> Ah, but its not so much a deficit... at least in what I've seen. Its probably more accurately the opposite, being too much of a good thing. I dont mean the dog is malnourished to cause these sorts of problems (it would actually probably cause less of a structural issue if the dog were underfed?). Its this very reason that I am nervous about feeding puppy food and prefer to have them on adult pretty much from the beginning. BJ


I have fed puppy food (and not a "large breed" formula) to all of my puppies from weaning until around 5 months of age. They do need the "extra" during this time. I then switch to adult food. I've never had a problem. From what I have seen, and what studies have shown, is that "too much of a good thing" would be improper supplementation causing an imbalance of certain vitamins and minerals, and that would be very unlikely to occur with a good (or even just "decent") puppy food. Adding very high amounts of calcium, for example, can be a problem., and it's still rare to see. I'm curious as to how often you've seen these problems, and I wonder if there might be other factors that are being overlooked - a particular bloodline, for example, or, perhaps water quality in a particular region. I've just not seen it, and I've been around about a million years .


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Off the top of my head, I've seen it in 4 dogs since I've started watching. One being a golden, and 3 being other breeds. I think different dogs do well on different things, but if switched before they're done growing to something the dog does better on, it should reclify itself. I do like the proplan adult line, but 2 of the 4 were fed proplan puppy food. One was switched at (I think) around 6 mths and turned out fine. The other was fed that way until it reached maturity. The golden was also never switched. The other was fed RAW as a puppy. True, it could be attributed to genetics (or a number of other things), but that is something we will never know. But I've also been told several years ago to NEVER feed a raw diet to a puppy. Myself, knowing what he was fed, attribute it to nutrition. All 4 dogs belong to "pet people" so I really dont know what their genetic background looks like. I've discussed it with a vet that unlike many, does know something about nutrition and he's told me that years ago they used to see it a lot more (not just in feet, but in the legs was fairly common, especially in larger breeds), but that many dog food companies have backed off. The more they put in, the more it costs them. It used to be a "gotta be better than the other guy", but they've realized its had an impact on their bottom line. Despite his reassurances, I still think there are better results to be had with adult food after about 4 mths old and have seen many many dogs that have done well that way. One breeder that I know and look up to very very much told me that she never feeds puppy food and her dogs are always stunning. Again though, could be genetics, as she has been doing it for something like 30 yrs and her lines are very well established. BJ


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Kohanagold said:


> The other was fed RAW as a puppy. True, it could be attributed to genetics (or a number of other things), but that is something we will never know. But I've also been told several years ago to NEVER feed a raw diet to a puppy.


now here I have to jump in, 2 of my best "feet goldens!" Tauri & Boston, were fed raw exclusively from 8 wks until I went back to kibble --they were approx 3 & 2 at the time! so I disagree with that one!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Feet serve a purpose, obviously. A cat foot is easier to lift, and better for moving for extended periods, while a hare foot - with it's elongated toes, is designed to achieve speed from a dead stop and maintain balance (think sighthounds, like Salukis and Borzoi...) Feet also bear the weight of the body. The biggest issue with feet and pasterns breaking down are structural faults such as straight shoulders and stifles, causing gait abnormalities, which the feet (and pasterns) then take the brunt of. 
Again, nutrition is vitally important, but I just don't see the problems with feet that you are referring to as being something that in today's age, nutrition would affect to the point that you are describing. I lay dollars to donuts that their front assemblies were poor, or that there was an overall lack of balance and incorrect gait as opposed to the feeding that you have described being responsible.


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## Conquerergold (Dec 12, 2007)

arcane said:


> I hate that my contract now contains 4 pages :uhoh: it seems there is always something new to add ...sigh ...and don't all vets think breeders are just NUTS!! :


I think I told you about the 8 week old puppy that I sold (out of an OFA Excellent dam) where the puppy persons new vet suggested on their first visit (which was within 72 hours of picking her up from me) they schedule a spay & hip surgery for when she is 11 weeks.

They called me in a panic, so I had to calm them down, then came the 'fun' part...sinking my teeth into their vet. I asked if they even did x-rays before thinking she needed her hips done (knowing full well they didn't). The vet stated they didn't but they do suggest this surgery be done for all Golden Retriever puppies, just because they are Goldens.

It was after that experience that I had to put the clause in my contract _"no NON-life threatening surgery is to be performed on the dog without the breeders written consent"_


Cheers
Rob


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Wow! I can't believe how incompetent a vet that was recommending hip surgery for all Goldens?!?! What a crock. Just out of curiosity since I believe we live in the same area, if you know the vet/clinic name can you PM me (so that I make sure it's not my clinic!).


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Conquerergold said:


> I think I told you about the 8 week old puppy that I sold (out of an OFA Excellent dam) where the puppy persons new vet suggested on their first visit (which was within 72 hours of picking her up from me) they schedule a spay & hip surgery for when she is 11 weeks.
> 
> They called me in a panic, so I had to calm them down, then came the 'fun' part...sinking my teeth into their vet. I asked if they even did x-rays before thinking she needed her hips done (knowing full well they didn't). The vet stated they didn't but they do suggest this surgery be done for all Golden Retriever puppies, just because they are Goldens.
> 
> ...


 
Wow! I have heard a lot of doozies but good lord thatis unreal.


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