# Losing faith in Positive Focused, Aversive Free training



## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

It just doesn't seem to be stopping unwanted behaviours or teaching behave one way as opposed to another. 

I found myself searching for other options. Thanks to a member of this forum I came across Gary Wilkes. The more I read from his blog and website the more his "bonker" methods make sense to me. According to the all knowing Internet he is the one who brought clicker training dogs to the masses. 

Contrast: The Secret to Changing Behaviors Effectively – Pt. 1 | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

I knew of Gary Wilkes - but until about a year ago I thought he must have gone on to other things or passed away - I hadn't seen anything recent until a few of his blog posts started going around.

The challenge with his writing is he is writing in a way to create specific emotional responses in his readers. 

He says enough things that are true that R+ people don't acknowledge or want to discuss - but also he says some things that are completely incorrect - that makes it much harder to evaluate the info than when someone writes things that are all (or primarily!) incorrect!

Do challenge R+ training - there are weaknesses to everything - we just need to be objective and careful in accessing everything as well as the sources.

This person I think has done a good job of addressing R+ misconceptions - again - biased source becuase she is for R+ training - however it seems like her writing style and content is quite objective?
R+ Misconceptions - eileenanddogseileenanddogs

(and an addition - I dont' have "faith" in R+ - I trust it to work if applied correctly becuase, by definition, that has to happen. Sure it gets hard with behaviors that have been long practiced or that are easily or heavily rewarded or reflexive - but I have rarely felt a behavior was unable to be changed).


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Could you be more specific? A lot of the time when an effective technique doesn't work, regardless of which quadrant is used, it's because a common mistake is being made by the handler. For example, most of the tried-and-true methods to get puppies to stop biting will eventually work, whether they're "positive only" or not, but there are some common mistakes that new owners make that can increase biting.

So maybe if you gave a run down of where you're getting stuck, you could get options (both +R focused and otherwise) that could help.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

In the world of dogs (let human "feel good" sentiments aside) how do they behave? Do they redirect, jugu jugu the pups? NO. They put the other dog in place and it is up to that dog to either learn quickly or push the other dog's buttons. 
Each dog is different just like each person is different. Some learn quick and some take longer or a firmer hand.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

tippykayak said:


> For example, most of the tried-and-true methods to get puppies to stop biting will eventually work



That's one thing that has had me thinking a lot lately actually. 

A lot of threads on here about puppy biting have people talking about redirection, back turning etc. and it tends to be summed up with advice "it took a while but he/she eventually got it". Another trend in these threads are the ages of these puppies, usually 3-4 months and 7-8 months of age. It has me really questioning whether it's the passive, positive methods or if the dog has just finished the teething periods. If it is the latter than attributing it to the positive methods is a false positive.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

Good read thanks for the link


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## Test-ok (Jan 15, 2015)

I think it has a lot to do with the growth spurts they go through..they look so cute on the outside but it's driving them nuts on the inside and each dog deals with it differently..why do you think breeder want to gone at 6 to 7 weeks. lol


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

SwimDog said:


> The challenge with his writing is he is writing in a way to create specific emotional responses in his readers.
> 
> He says enough things that are true that R+ people don't acknowledge or want to discuss - but also he says some things that are completely incorrect - that makes it much harder to evaluate the info than when someone writes things that are all (or primarily!) incorrect!



I think depending on your point of view you can approach the articles you linked to with the same thoughts. 

Very interestingly she quotes B.F. Skinner, the very same behaviourist Wilkes trashes time and time again.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

tippykayak said:


> So maybe if you gave a run down of where you're getting stuck, you could get options (both +R focused and otherwise) that could help.



One from this morning's walk. 

I take Millie past our little local shopping centre to get her used to automatic doors, cars and people. It's only 7am so there's not many cars or people so I can stack the cards in my favour. 

As we crossed the road to the car park that runs around the perimeter of the shopping centre we were coming up to a plastic bag. Rather than totally avoid it I try and use opportunities like this for training, like most people I suspect. As we approached I gave the command "leave it". Now Millie is 8 months 10 days old so we've worked with "leave it" for 6 months, there are no questions that she knows what it means and in various situations. Despite that she still stopped and dived in to the bag. What she came up with was the leftovers of a Subway sandwich. Completely blew off my command. 

Reading her face and body language I knew she didn't want to give it up, and that if she wasn't on lead she would run. "Drop" had nil effect. I had fresh chicken breast on me, we are working on loose walking and focus, and swap was ignored. I ended up having to pry her jaws open to retrieve the bread. After doing so I offered her the chicken again and she refused. Again, reading her told me that she had more so in I went again.

The night before hand she swallowed something whilst I was asking for a swap/leave it. 

I'm glad that neither the Subway nor what she had swallowed the night before were toxic. But it concerns me that she has the confidence to disobey "leave it".


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

It was clearly a higher reward then what you had to offer. 

I bet he was thinking I can smell something amazing I hope he walks me passed there... Oh boy oh boy he is he is walking passed there oh boy. It's on like donkey kong.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Marcus said:


> It was clearly a higher reward then what you had to offer.
> 
> I bet he was thinking I can smell something amazing I hope he walks me passed there... Oh boy oh boy he is he is walking passed there oh boy. It's on like donkey kong.



But seriously, what tops Subway??!!?!? Just jokes


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

At least it was healthy hahaha. 

Ben does this as well. I just yank him away from it. He doesn't know "leave it" he knows "God damit Ben stop eating that, eww"


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Leave it is a far weaker trained cue than people think. If your dogs has a weak leave it, she needs a strong GIVE. Leave it is critical in many cases (like for therapy dogs) but your girl is entering the independent stage where everything might very well be tested -- especially when forbidden treats are involved. This is a period of time that can last a few months and you need to be careful - you noticed her ear set, tail set, focus and body language when she spotted that grinder? You noticed the change when she decided to lunge for the grinder? The 2nd set of body language was already too late for a leave it unless she was either well trained (and proofed) or not in one of the testing phases. 

Far better is teaching your dog that good things come from you - Youtube most likely has many videos of Zen games that are public. And focus based training.

It is up to you, her trainer, to be proactive about not allowing her to self re-enforce; which I would guess a Subway grinder is a HUGE re-enforcement. Punishment based training probably wouldn't work all that well either once she decided that grinder was hers, just make her swallow faster. 

You asked her the question, she failed your test. Learn from that failure.. we all sometimes assume our dogs are better trained than they truly are and learn how to train in either smaller steps or with a correction at the ready.

So, you over faced your dog, Hopefully you can learn from the mistake. The method of training did not make the mistake.


Chritty said:


> One from this morning's walk.
> 
> I take Millie past our little local shopping centre to get her used to automatic doors, cars and people. It's only 7am so there's not many cars or people so I can stack the cards in my favour.
> 
> ...


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

*Losing faith in 'positive only' methodology*



Sunrise said:


> You asked her the question, she failed your test. Learn from that failure.. we all sometimes assume our dogs are better trained than they truly are



And this is where I am left questioning the efficacy of a positive focused training method.

ETA: I did not know the Sub was in there. At human level it looked just like a bag plastic bag thrown out of a car with multiple empty wrappers. That's what I saw as the challenge for her, leaving plastic bags alone. The "leave it" was given well before she had her head in there. The opportunity for her to self reinforce wasn't apparent when leave it was given. I didn't walk her past a sub on the ground as such.


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## thorbreafortuna (Jun 9, 2013)

*Losing faith in 'positive only' methodology*

I have several thoughts on this

1) positive only training may be a myth. We do give consequences for unwanted behavior sometimes, they're just not harsh or physical: example: when your pup is pulling on the lead the consequence is that you stop moving or turn around. This is gentle in nature but it is a negative consequence, preventing the pup from being rewarded for pulling by getting where he wants to go.

2) the above example has me wondering if the trickiest part of any training approach isn't essentially the prevention of unintended reinforcement. Hard sometimes when the behavior itself is self rewarding. I don't think this goes away with harsher methods, then you also have to worry about unintended consequences of other types, example: after my sister in law felt frustrated enough with their dog's barking, she tried a bark collar. Her pup suddenly was terrified of going outside and had several accidents in the house for that reason. Why? She tends to bark when she does outdoors so she learned that it was her going outside that was causing her discomfort, not the barking. Perhaps this would have been resolved eventually but they chose to eliminate the bark collar because she was clearly miserable and confused.

3) punishment for the behavior you described is actually quite risky in my opinion, possibly resulting in guarding behavior and mistrust. I would instead practice give and leave a lot more in many settings but making sure you can control the outcome: Hold that leash and keep him away if he chooses the wrong option. Reward him like a rock star if he chooses well. Understand that going outdoors and practicing leave it with a found goodie is way harder than doing it indoor with a controlled set up: Similar to marathon training when you've only ever ran 3 milers. You can get there but you have to increase the challenge slowly. 

4) Behavior just doesn't become second nature that quickly and sometimes a dog has to mature a bit to be able to execute their training consistently. This isn't the same as the training not working.
An example with the biting that some mentioned above. My puppy Thor was a mouthy player. This wasn't just teething, it lasted over the teething stages. However he hadn't played that way with me since before six months. He knows I don't play that way so he only tried it in moments of intense excitement. These were the moments when his youth and impulsivity took over, and these moments became rarer and rarer. He would still do it with my young adult kids because they allowed it. Until they learned to be consistent. To me this proves that he did learn from the training. It's just that since they weren't executing the plan what he learned was that I didn't allow it, not that it wasn't allowed. As soon as they got on board things improved dramatically. 
Another example: When I came home he was overexcited and tended to bite my coat and jump up to grab my fur lined hood. His excitement was too intense for him to just leave it, but thanks to his training using positive methods, he was able to execute a sit stay for me while I put away my coat in spite of his excitement, in expectation of the coming treat no doubt. Might he have learned to stop that behavior with a punishment? Probably, but he might have also learned to fear my arrival and that wasn't a consequence I was willing to risk.

5) in the end you have to make your own decisions about training and combine tools that work best for you. I just would avoid doing so without a lot of information and thought and not as a response to a couple of frustrating incidents. Don't think I don't feel your pain. We're only barely getting out of the difficult stage your pup is probably entering. You may see many more of those incidents as your pup goes through his teenage phase, better brace yourself with some patience and sense of humor and think of training as if it had just started over. Back to basics is the name of the game with a teenage pup.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Chritty said:


> That's one thing that has had me thinking a lot lately actually.
> 
> A lot of threads on here about puppy biting have people talking about redirection, back turning etc. and it tends to be summed up with advice "it took a while but he/she eventually got it". Another trend in these threads are the ages of these puppies, usually 3-4 months and 7-8 months of age. It has me really questioning whether it's the passive, positive methods or if the dog has just finished the teething periods. If it is the latter than attributing it to the positive methods is a false positive.


My dogs have stopped nipping in a couple of weeks - usually by 12-14 weeks. In cases I've worked with where it's taken longer, it's because one or more family members is reinforcing the biting. It usually has little to do with the punishment (whether it's "gentler" punishment like turning away or "meaner" punishment like grabbing the muzzle and saying "no") and everything to do with accidental reinforcement.

And I wonder why you call the "positive" methods "passive." Redirection is a pretty active activity.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

I think just take a deep breath, and realize that this too will pass. When I was 19 my boyfriend gave me an Old English Sheepdog puppy for my birthday. This was the beginning of me living in the worst rentals you could imagine just so I could keep my dog for his first 7 years until I got married and bought a house. Anyway, I made tons of mistakes with this pup, he ended up being 130 pounds of hellion for a few years (at the time I just enjoyed him I guess....ahhh youth!: ). I did take him through obedience at about one year old but that was it. And he turned out great anyway! So just don't stress too much, be as consistent as you can with training and schedules for him, and since he's a Golden, he's bound to turn out amazing!


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I read the article, albeit only once and we're having yet another freaking snow storm and I Am In a Mood and probably not concentrating very well...is he advocating bonking your dog on the head with a roll of paper towels? As much as I'm on board with kindler/gentler aversives as opposed to the ugly kind, in all honesty my Boomer would have LOVED that. He would have repeated the behavior all day long just to play that game again!
Unless, of course, it's supposed to be positive?


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

I believe in positive reinforcement. It may take longer but you will have a better relationship with your dog. Truthfully, it may take a lot longer with some behaviors that they really seem stuck on.

We have a Min Pin and my BF is more disciplinary than positive reinforcing with him and now the Min Pin kind of keeps his distance from him and gets really suspicious of him but loves me.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

*Having a dog that is 100% obedient on 'Here' (recall), 'Leave it', and 'Give' commands is critical because the health and possibly the longevity of the dog is at risk. *

*So what ever method(s) you choose for training, be sure they work for you and your dog. Otherwise you can pay a very high price! Do not hesitate to seek professional help, if your pup is not 100% on these commands.*


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

tippykayak said:


> And I wonder why you call the "positive" methods "passive." Redirection is a pretty active activity.



Back turning, removing hands, removing yourself, isolation. 

These are what I'm calling passive. Sorry, I'm not quite across the quadrants but this is how I see these actions.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Marcus said:


> At least it was healthy hahaha.
> 
> Ben does this as well. I just yank him away from it. He doesn't know "leave it" he knows "God damit Ben stop eating that, eww"


Problem with that response as the dog will think his call name is God damit!??:doh:


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

*Losing faith in 'positive only' methodology*



Noreaster said:


> I read the article, albeit only once and we're having yet another freaking snow storm and I Am In a Mood and probably not concentrating very well...is he advocating bonking your dog on the head with a roll of paper towels? As much as I'm on board with kindler/gentler aversives as opposed to the ugly kind, in all honesty my Boomer would have LOVED that. He would have repeated the behavior all day long just to play that game again!
> Unless, of course, it's supposed to be positive?



It's not paper towel, it's a gym towel. And I did ask Gary Wilkes about this exact thing as I imagined Millie seeing this as an invitation to play. He has laid out specific rules for this aversive technique. The most important part of which I took away was the linking of the signal "no" to the punishment and that the signal must be given before the consequence.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Wenderwoman said:


> I believe in positive reinforcement. It may take longer but you will have a better relationship with your dog. Truthfully, it may take a lot longer with some behaviors that they really seem stuck on.



I wouldn't stop using positive reinforcement, it's the addition of an aversive that I am considering.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

No matter what methods you use: 

1) have excellent timing and technique- humans with slow feedback are a big impediment for a dog's learning. 
2) be a "clean" trainer and control your body language and talking. We create lots of white noise for dogs with are gestures and chatter that doesnt pertain to them. That is the beauty of a clicker- it is a sound only pertaining to the dog. 
3) Read your dog's signals attentively/ realize stress is a byproduct of learning, and training is a lifelong conversation with your dog 
4) reward honest effort as well as success;Raise your criteria and keep high standards as you go along
5) Dont win a battle, and lose the war, in terms of extinguishing a behavior or eliciting one, only to lose some of the dog's overall trust in you or liking for you.


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## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

We discussed the wrapper situation on dog class last week. My trainer is a positive, clicker trainer. The point of training is that when you see that wrapper, you are able to guide your dog away from it. Not that you walk him up to it, demand he leave it, and then punish him when he fails. Of course there will be times when you don't see the wrapper ahead of time and you need that emergency Leave It or Drop. But it takes a lot more training to get a Subway sandwich back than running across one now and then. The biggest standoff I ever had with Casper was over a burrito in a wrapper in a parking lot. It was way beyond our skill set!

I walk Casper at night a lot and I've learned to keep him away from anything I can't identify. We've run across some weird stuff in the dark. So much easier to avoid it than try to use it as training material. Because it could be something extremely dangerous.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

quilter said:


> We discussed the wrapper situation on dog class last week. My trainer is a positive, clicker trainer. The point of training is that when you see that wrapper, you are able to guide your dog away from it. Not that you walk him up to it, demand he leave it, and then punish him when he fails. Of course there will be times when you don't see the wrapper ahead of time and you need that emergency Leave It or Drop. But it takes a lot more training to get a Subway sandwich back than running across one now and then.



Doesn't that leave you a conundrum then? How do you develop that emergency leave it or drop it if there's nil preparation of an emergency situation?

Part of our CGC requires a dog to be purposely led past objects and having to leave them.


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## Marcus (Aug 24, 2014)

What's a CGC?


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Canine Good Citizen


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

A beautiful drop it training plan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndTiVOCNY4M

A leave it: I just found this video - no idea of who the person is or whatever else - yes it's a structured training session so not a surprise to the person, but per the description, they've not practiced this behavior in this environment - the dog has learned that yummy things = resist/look to person. It's cool that she shoes it with different dogs - notice the dog who learned a verbal "leave it cue" the handler has to help more compared to the dogs who learned that the distraction was the signal (difference between self control vs handler control).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXSYXGKCV3E


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

I didn't read the article, but I've been arguing this a lot with my fiance lately. He believe in more aggressive consequences to mistakes - a (gentle) smack on the butt, loud "no", etc. The problem is that Zelda doesn't respond to them. The reward, to her, is much greater than the consequence. Is it because dogs don't think in terms of reward/punishment like humans do? Possibly. 

For example, she looooves the trash. We have a baby gate blocking the kitchen, but sometimes it gets left open. Zelda wastes no time in getting in the trash every time. She also gets a smack nearly every time. Does it deter her in any way? No, because the reward is too great. I'd just prefer to keep her away from the trash altogether.

I understand your frustration. I just don't think it will work quite like you want it to - especially in the situation you described.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> I didn't read the article, but I've been arguing this a lot with my fiance lately. He believe in more aggressive consequences to mistakes - a (gentle) smack on the butt, loud "no", etc. The problem is that Zelda doesn't respond to them. The reward, to her, is much greater than the consequence. Is it because dogs don't think in terms of reward/punishment like humans do? Possibly.
> 
> I understand your frustration. I just don't think it will work quite like you want it to - especially in the situation you described.



I know smacks don't work for Millie. I learnt that a long time ago and I don't use them anymore. She only gets revved up for play. But the aversive in the article is different and does come with a set of rules. 

Whilst dogs may not think of reward/consequence the exact same way we do they still share the 4 important Fs with us for survival
Fright
Flight 
Fight and....
Making love


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Dear God, rereading that it sounds like I'm advocating hitting my dog, and I'm not. I just pick my battles and that's one that isn't worth arguing over (since obviously Zelda doesn't care anyway).


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Rkaymay said:


> it sounds like I'm advocating hitting my dog



I don't think anyone took it that way, I didn't!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Rkaymay said:


> We have a baby gate blocking the kitchen, but sometimes it gets left open. Zelda wastes no time in getting in the trash every time. She also gets a smack nearly every time.


Maybe whoever leaves the gate open should get a smack instead of Zelda...


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

IMHO the dog knows when you mean it and when you do not. One can smack the behind ten thousand times and the dog will know that you do not actually mean it; 
keeping the gate closed does not teach the dog not to get in the trash. Supervision and working with the dog continuously for the very first few months in your house does. Keep the gate closed when you cannot train and then open it and use every opportunity to train and create a bond between the two of you. Repetition repetition repetition.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Rkaymay said:


> I didn't read the article, but I've been arguing this a lot with my fiance lately. He believe in more aggressive consequences to mistakes - a (gentle) smack on the butt, loud "no", etc. The problem is that Zelda doesn't respond to them. The reward, to her, is much greater than the consequence. Is it because dogs don't think in terms of reward/punishment like humans do? Possibly.
> 
> For example, she looooves the trash. We have a baby gate blocking the kitchen, but sometimes it gets left open. Zelda wastes no time in getting in the trash every time. She also gets a smack nearly every time. Does it deter her in any way? No, because the reward is too great. I'd just prefer to keep her away from the trash altogether.
> 
> I understand your frustration. I just don't think it will work quite like you want it to - especially in the situation you described.


Sometimes they associate the punishment more with the human being a meanie/threat/unpredictable/ not rewarding at all, rather than connecting it with their own actions. It can makes things worse.


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

I keep my trash in a cupboard under the sink and have prior to having puppies so that might be solution or get one of those ones with a lid that solidly closes that you have to put your foot on to open. 

If she figures out how to open the cupboard or step on the foot to open the trash can lid, she deserves a special prize for being so smart. IMHO.


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## Jessie'sGirl (Aug 30, 2010)

I think sometimes you just have to pick your battles. My 5 yr old Jess is a food - obsessed. We play all the leave- it games, I am constantly working on this. However, some days I'm a little off my game, and Jess finds a little treasure. The other day we were walking home, he digs in the snow and uncovers a bagel at the edge of my neighbours driveway. I quickly considered my options, looked at him and said " take it".


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## Brads035 (Apr 1, 2014)

The method that is most effective will likely depend on your dog's personality. However, I have found the positive-reinforcement methods to work best with my golden mix. My 2.5 yr old has a great recall and will follow me everywhere. We play fetch and chase and I take him on outings to the beach or hiking in the woods at least 1xweek. In (nearly) all of my interactions I stay happy and positive and treat him with love and he is (mostly) obedient out of love (for food rewards!). But, if we walk past tasty food on the sidewalk (pizza slice, chicken etc) I give a very stern "no, leave it/drop it" and stop until he gives it up and we move on. I have never physically punished him bc I believe it would destroy trust. But, the change in my demeanor from happy/positive to stern/unyielding seems to work on him. When I was a nanny for a few months I used the same routine with toddlers and they always stopped the naughty behavior so that I would go back to being their friendly playmate!


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