# English vs. American vs. Field



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Have you gone to dog shows? You may be able to see the actual parents or at least the style of dogs which they breed. That would be a good start.

And/or go in person to visit the breeder. 

People have preferences for style, color, temperament, purpose, etc.... and that's OK. But really make sure you are going with an up-and-up breeder who is doing all of the clearances (hips, elbows, heart, eyes). 

Other thing too, I think a lot of people go into purchasing a puppy with an idea that they want a solid looking dog. And you will have breeders have these rather obese looking dogs who weigh upwards of 90 pounds. It is one thing to be dealing with thyroid disease and getting and/or keeping weight off of middle-aged dogs, but younger dogs (2-3 years old) should be in the best shape of their life and be in prime condition. Goldens are not and should not be heavyweight dogs, _even when they are big boned._


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Trust me, you can end up with a Golden Retriever who is hyper and unable to focus no matter what color the coat is or what their bone structure is like unless you do your research and take plenty of time interviewing breeders. Make sure no matter what their dogs look like they are active in showing their dogs in some venue like obedience or field work where an obedience basis is important. It's the best way of making sure that you end up. With a dog who is easy to train and to live with. I have learned a lot about Goldens over the past decade or so and color is way down on my list of concerns when looking for a good dog. Best of luck with your search.


----------



## BrinkleyMom (Feb 8, 2013)

We have EXACTLY the type of field golden that we are referring to! It is so funny how different people's are preferences are because we really wanted a dark, skinny, setter-like golden vs a lighter golden or white golden. 

I can promise that no matter what "type" of golden you get, your days will be filled with lots of fun, laughter and sometimes frustration because they ALL have their moments =)


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

There is ONE breed with MANY different styles. Not two, not three, but many. You can find goldens all over the spectrum. Just be wary of ANY breeder who is marketing their dogs as a specific type, for example "English Creme" "American Red" etc. This is not something any reputable breeder will do. Those terms just make my skin crawl.
Like produces like. Regardless of the type, style or pedigree, your best bet at getting a dog you like the looks of is to buy a pup from parents you like the look of. It's really that simple 
It's not a bad thing to want a golden of a particular style. There are even big variations of type within just show goldens from America. I like a particular style, that's what my dogs are. Just avoid any breeder that is using looks as their PRIMARY push in advertising their dogs.


----------



## BrinkleyMom (Feb 8, 2013)

K9-Design said:


> I like a particular style, that's what my dogs are. Just avoid any breeder that is using looks as their PRIMARY push in advertising their dogs.


Completely agree with this! A breeder should obviously listen and understand your preference with color etc. but a good breeder will not focus just on outward appearances of dogs! Look for lots of health certs and breeder that shows their dogs in some way.


----------



## MojoMama (Jun 2, 2014)

Thanks, everyone, for your comments. I totally agree that color is on the back burner as far as important traits go. I do have a preference for blond or tawny, but it's not that significant.

I have completely sifted out the breeders who use color, or phrases like "specializing in English creme." I also weeded out those who ship puppies, or who give the person with the first deposit "first pick," since I think the dog should complement the family.

What a draining process! There are many "breeders," but relatively few who don't have at least one red flag.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

If you like the English style Goldens this is a great place to start:

English Goldens in North America - Litters - Breeders - Stud Dogs


----------



## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

If you're looking in the north east (which I assume you are since you said you've looked from MA to PA) there are plenty of good breeders around, you just may have to be willing to get on a wait list. Blonde shouldn't be too hard to find either. As for field vs conformation, check out some conformation shows and spend some time with a breeder of field lines if you can. The research, effort and wait will pay off in the end!


----------



## fireside angry birdy (Jun 22, 2014)

*differences in "sub-breeds" of the Golden*

there are subtle differences to the golden. I've owned two field bred goldens and they are spectacular dogs. they make terrific family pets and hunting companions. I've found the field bred goldens are bred to proper size and only the most desirable pups are chosen for training and breeding by the breeder. my current 2 y.o. golden is a 55 lb female that has certified hips and eyes by an accredited agency. this achieved by not breeding them too large as it causes health problems. her parents are ribbon winning champion dogs with deep golden color and beautiful proportions. she is an excellent pup. the field bred is more proportionate, healthier and responsibly bred than any other of the casually bred goldens. I highly suggest you consider the field bred golden for a family pet. my latest came from Fireside Fireside Retrievers & Top Brass Topbrass Retrievers-Golden Retrievers and Labradors since 1968

feel free to contact me directly for pictures and more info. [email protected]


----------



## fireside angry birdy (Jun 22, 2014)

*pictures of angry birdy*

pictures of angry birdy


----------



## fireside angry birdy (Jun 22, 2014)

Fireside Retrievers Topbrass Retrievers-Golden Retrievers and Labradors since 1968

These are excellent breeders. I have a pup from each. read my reply below and consider these folks. they're both leading the field in golden breeding in this country.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

MojoMama said:


> I also weeded out those who ship puppies, or who give the person with the first deposit "first pick," since I think the dog should complement the family.
> 
> What a draining process! There are many "breeders," but relatively few who don't have at least one red flag.


There are a lot of quality breeders who will ship a puppy. It is often the least stressful method to get a pup to its new home. Let's see crated for a 12 hour car ride or a two hour non-stop plane ride, which is going to be easier on the pup?


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

fireside angry birdy said:


> ...the field bred is more proportionate, healthier and responsibly bred than any other of the casually bred goldens.



This is one of those BROAD statements that are not based on any facts and drive me crazy.  And of course the "other" are not "casually bred" if done by a responsible breeder. :doh:


----------



## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

MojoMama said:


> I prefer a blondish gold. I do like a bigger-boned, gentle-featured dog with a wider head, shorter muzzle.


Given your preferences, don't go with a field golden. They are MY preference, but their standards don't match your preferences. Again, it is perfectly okay to have a "look" that you like.


----------



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

fireside angry birdy said:


> there are subtle differences to the golden. I've owned two field bred goldens and they are spectacular dogs. they make terrific family pets and hunting companions. I've found the field bred goldens are bred to proper size and only the most desirable pups are chosen for training and breeding by the breeder. my current 2 y.o. golden is a 55 lb female that has certified hips and eyes by an accredited agency. this achieved by not breeding them too large as it causes health problems. her parents are ribbon winning champion dogs with deep golden color and beautiful proportions. she is an excellent pup. the field bred is more proportionate, healthier and responsibly bred than any other of the casually bred goldens. I highly suggest you consider the field bred golden for a family pet. my latest came from Fireside Fireside Retrievers & Top Brass Topbrass Retrievers-Golden Retrievers and Labradors since 1968
> 
> feel free to contact me directly for pictures and more info. [email protected]


Gah! :no: Just stop with the baloney, please! Most people here are knowledgeable enough to dismiss this tripe out of hand, but a few may not be. Just. Stop. It makes you look like you an uneducated advocate spouting mere sophistry.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Certified hips by an accredited agency? Who and what does that mean?


----------



## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

DanaRuns said:


> Gah! :no: Just stop with the baloney, please! Most people here are knowledgeable enough to dismiss this tripe out of hand, but a few may not be. Just. Stop. It makes you look like you an uneducated advocate spouting mere sophistry.





AmbikaGR said:


> This is one of those BROAD statements that are not based on any facts and drive me crazy.  And of course the "other" are not "casually bred" if done by a responsible breeder. :doh:


Fireside Angry Birdy, I agree with these two comments, but want to say that I also agree (and I am pretty sure DanaRuns and AmbikaGR would agree) that Fireside and Topbrass are very good breeders.


----------



## fireside angry birdy (Jun 22, 2014)

AmbikaGR said:


> This is one of those BROAD statements that are not based on any facts and drive me crazy.  And of course the "other" are not "casually bred" if done by a responsible breeder. :doh:


by casually I mean for profit rather than for sport or show. There are so may casual breeders of goldens out there. so many in the northeast that you must search far beyond to find a breeder that does not breed solely for profit.


----------



## fireside angry birdy (Jun 22, 2014)

Sally's Mom said:


> Certified hips by an accredited agency? Who and what does that mean?


*Orthopedic Foundation for Animals*


----------



## fireside angry birdy (Jun 22, 2014)

Selli-Belle said:


> Fireside Angry Birdy, I agree with these two comments, but want to say that I also agree (and I am pretty sure DanaRuns and AmbikaGR would agree) that Fireside and Topbrass are very good breeders.


while I do agree dogs for show are bred responsiblily I also believe dog shows are the beauty pagents of the canine world. superficial and pointless spoiled men and women parading their pampered animals in circles. my dogs are for sport and companionship which are a worthy purpose.


----------



## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Mojomama.....

Obviously, we all have our opinions and when you start talking about performance the bias's really start to show. 

The one thing we all would agree on, I believe, is your first priority should be to get the very best pup you can, putting the overall health of the parents and grandparents as a top priority. This must include health certifications and longevity of the pedigree. A responsible breeder will provide all of this to you on request, if they do not have it, beware! Getting a beautiful Golden, from beautiful parents, is only a good experience....if they are healthy.....giving you the best chance of having a healthy pup that has a chance of a long life....that must be your primary goal.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

fireside angry birdy said:


> while I do agree dogs for show are bred responsiblily I also believe dog shows are the beauty pagents of the canine world. superficial and pointless spoiled men and women parading their pampered animals in circles. my dogs are for sport and companionship which are a worthy purpose.


My dogs are also for companionship. I am a very middle class woman who struggles to get out and show my dogs because, I enjoy competition and I belive they deserve a shot as they meet the standard. 

Not every disicpline is for everyone, you don't have to like or do what I do with my dogs, just lke I don't have to do the same things you do with yours.

I can enjoy, respect and apprciate a well bred dog who competes in tracking, obedience, hunt test, field, lure coursing, agility, rally, flyball, ground work, nosework, conformation, etc. I give big kudos to any breeder who on top of the health clearances, socializaton, structure, temperment and then masters one or more competative discipline. 

I would highly recommend if you have never been to a show go to one with an open mind. Meet all the folks like me, who eat frozen dinners and stay at motel 6 in order to have our dog's structure, movement and traits measured to the breed standard by amazing dog people. Of course there are going to be handlers and top dogs which you have generalzed all show folks to but, you have that same kind of thing at the top of all disciplines. I recently heard that a top field competators career is more expensive than a top show dog's. If it is true and I would love to know, we are talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Any thing tends to get crazy out of balabce with reality when that kind of money is involved.

By the way I don't think I am spoiled, my dogs maybe but not me


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

fireside angry birdy said:


> while I do agree dogs for show are bred responsiblily I also believe dog shows are the beauty pagents of the canine world. superficial and pointless spoiled men and women parading their pampered animals in circles. my dogs are for sport and companionship which are a worthy purpose.


LOL..... 

I do have opinions on conformation that are still the same now as they were before I started showing my pup. The primary one being - I still don't think that the best dog in the ring always wins. You have a lot of shows where the judges pick dogs based on their own "thingy" that they are looking for. I was telling somebody about this one show where the judge was walking around the winners ring and looking like he did not like any of the dogs out there. And he just put up the dog who was closest to what he actually prefers in a golden retriever. 

It's not the same as training your dog day in and day out, and working your butt off to put obedience and field titles on that dog. And generally speaking if you have put those titles on your dogs, it is because you truly earned them. 

All that said - it demonstrates ignorance as far as what conformation is about and the GOOD parts of the venue.... if you are saying it is just a beauty pageant and all pointless. 

In the truest sense, the whole point of conformation is preserving the breed as far singling out dogs who best represent the breed standard. People quibble, but in reality - the dogs that are taken into the ring fit the breed standard. They may not all look the same, but they all look like golden retrievers.

You go into other sports - and this is the biggest quibble that a lot of people have about people who only do field or only do obedience and don't even try to make sure the dogs at least get CCA's or so on.... you have dogs who are not immediately identifiable as golden retrievers. A lot of the time, it is because the dogs were bred based on pedigree and talent alone. 

Anyway - yes, I've been there working on drying my dog while people have walked past pointing fingers at him and laughing at us and the other people who are spending an hour or so to prep our dogs for the ring. It's not fun and probably a big reason why when you have posts like this, you have a lot of people getting irritated. LOL. It would have been FUN just having somebody else groom my dog and do all that work for me while I goofed off. 

Conformation is a lot of work. You have the 2-3 hour grooming sessions just to clean up the feet, ears, tail - essentials. And you have the show prep which generation takes an hour. 

And what it comes down to is a lot of people take a lot of pride in their dogs. They would not think about going into the ring with the coat being in a condition that makes their dogs look bad or hides many of the good attributes which the dogs actually have. 

Part of that hour process before showing is all about making the fur on the back lay flat instead of bunching up in any way. Even though waves are OK per the standard, they can cause uneven lines on the topline and make a dog look like he doesn't have a level topline - per breed standard.

Gaiting the dog around the ring - that's not just for show. The judges are supposed to be watching the movement of the dogs. And that movement will tell them stuff about the dog's structure. 

Good judges do not generally want to reward the dogs who have the fanciest movement with feet flying. They are looking for as little space between the dogs feet and the ground as possible... while the dogs also have good extension and reach. 

Anyway -


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

fireside angry birdy said:


> while I do agree dogs for show are bred responsiblily I also believe dog shows are the beauty pagents of the canine world. superficial and pointless spoiled men and women parading their pampered animals in circles. my dogs are for sport and companionship which are a worthy purpose.


What is this belief based upon? Have you ever been to conformation show? Met the owners? Met the dogs? What would you say if I told you the#1 golden in the country was seen retrieving in a lake right after showing in the breed ring (and a few days before he won Best In Show last weekend)? It sounds like you have made some unfair assumptions about conformation. 

Additionally, to suggest that dogs who show in conformation are not owned for sport, companionship or a "worthy purpose" is very offensive to those of us to compete in conformation as one of our hobbies. MY dogs are my companions. MY dogs serve a worthy purpose. They also compete in conformation sometimes. It is not their life and I am not "superficial," "pointless," or "spoiled."


----------



## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

fireside angry birdy said:


> I also believe dog shows are the beauty pagents of the canine world. superficial and pointless spoiled men and women parading their pampered animals in circles. my dogs are for sport and companionship which are a worthy purpose.



Well I believe you have no idea what the purpose of a conformation show is about and how it is judged. And included above is another of those broad stroke statements that are not based on facts. :doh:
As for the the pampered animals, if yours are not "pampered" then shame on you for whatever purpose they are for you.


----------



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Know nothing about Foreside, but on their website, they state they lost a 9.5 year old pregnant bitch last Fall. I know that in some circles breeding a bitch that old is ok, but in practice, when I see those pups from older bitches, they are unthrifty.


----------



## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> Know nothing about Foreside, but on their website, they state they lost a 9.5 year old pregnant bitch last Fall. I know that in some circles breeding a bitch that old is ok, but in practice, when I see those pups from older bitches, they are unthrifty.


 
What is unthrifty? Not meaning sarcasam but I am unsure what you mean by this.

I have respected Pat and Susan (owners of Fireside) for the many talented and sound dogs that they have produced and campaigned over the years. Without talking to them I would not know the reason for breeding their older girl and again, I would not know if the cause of death was related to the pregnancy.

When we start talking about older dogs and breeding, I am reminded of AFC Holway Barty. He is found in most field Golden pedigrees and is considered a foundation for the talent we see today. He was born of a 10 year old bitch. The litter was an oops but none the less, the talent and ability was there.


----------



## natalia.filbee (Oct 3, 2013)

Have a look at my dog Noa she is an American golden she's gorgeous and she is also very intelligent I had her house trained at 4 months old, not saying you can't do that with an English but she is a very good dog with a great temperament. I love American goldens


----------



## iGirl (Oct 5, 2009)

fireside angry birdy said:


> while I do agree dogs for show are bred responsiblily I also believe dog shows are the beauty pagents of the canine world. superficial and pointless spoiled men and women parading their pampered animals in circles. my dogs are for sport and companionship which are a worthy purpose.


Have you ever read Dr. Suess' story about Sneeches? This sounds just like one who believes they are the only "worthy" one.


----------



## FBK174 (Mar 8, 2014)

*English Golden*

This is the 2nd English Golden I have owned. The 1st one came from Norfolk, England. This one from here in the U.S. I have never owned an American Golden. Our two English ones have been very timid dogs. The 1st one horrified of fireworks & thunderstorms and this one afraid of everything, including a plastic bag from Walmart. Although we love these dogs dearly, we more than likely, will not get another English one. They have been loving, devoted pets. Our first one has crossed the Rainbow Bridge. I had high hopes of this Golden being a therapy dog, but with his fears will have to settle for him being our family pet. I wouldn't trade him for anything. Just letting you know my experience.


----------



## kellyguy (Mar 5, 2014)

I've been following this thread for self educational purposes, and it has wandered off track a few times into controversy. Having said that, I've have three wonderful goldens in my lifetime, and my wife has had two more. Every one of them has had distinctly different personalities. I have learned a great deal from other peoples experience on these forums that some of the behavior traits that I associated with breeding were actually socialization and training related rather than being a personality quirk of a particular dog. I've really had no major issues, but I now think I recognize a lot of training pitfalls to avoid. Thanks to many dedicated forum members.
My question is if shyness, timidity and fearfulness are inherited or learned?


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I love all good goldens. How about this guy Manny, who is all of the above a field dog, an American dog, and an English blend all at once ? Pedigree: HRCH CH Beau Geste Being Ramiroz CDX MH WCX** DDHF VCX


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

kellyguy said:


> I've been following this thread for self educational purposes, and it has wandered off track a few times into controversy. Having said that, I've have three wonderful goldens in my lifetime, and my wife has had two more. *Every one of them has had distinctly different personalities*. I have learned a great deal from other peoples experience on these forums that some of *the behavior traits that I associated with breeding were actually socialization and training related rather than being a personality quirk of a particular dog.* I've really had no major issues, but I now think I recognize a lot of training pitfalls to avoid. Thanks to many dedicated forum members.
> My question is if shyness, timidity and fearfulness are inherited or learned?



Yes, most has to do with socialization and training.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

kellyguy said:


> My question is if shyness, timidity and fearfulness are inherited or learned?


 It's both and either/or. Any trauma or terrible incidents in a dog's life, and that will or could mark them for life. It's not always something the owner can prevent or fix. 

My Jacks was a very confident and happy puppy.... until he was about 1.5 years old. I don't know if that was the point his thyroid started going bad or the fact we had a very terrible summer for thunderstorms, but I can name the day and time period that he first showed signs of fear and anxiety. Was a stormy Sunday morning - we came home from church to find him cowering in a closet. After that he became progressively and progressively worse until I finally had his thyroid correctly dx. And even then it just helped him become a bit more stabilized, it didn't make his phobias go away.


----------



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Ljilly28 said:


> I love all good goldens. How about this guy Manny, who is all of the above a field dog, an American dog, and an English blend all at once ? Pedigree: HRCH CH Beau Geste Being Ramiroz CDX MH WCX** DDHF VCX


My Archer is an English blend and the perfect dog, for me anyway. He's got a bullet proof temperament, loves everybody he meets especially kids, cuddles on bed with me, can attend fireworks shows, loves shotguns and hunting, let's me vacuum him with my dyson, the lists goes on and on. I would be tempted to get another English blend in hopes of recreating all of his wonderful traits but the truth is I don't think it would make my chances better than if I were to get any other well bred golden. I honestly believe the biggest factor is socialization. The dogs personality plays a part too, and energy level of the dog. I tried very hard to socialize Archer to everything I could, but beyond that I just got lucky


----------



## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

Megora said:


> It's both and either/or. Any trauma or terrible incidents in a dog's life, and that will or could mark them for life. It's not always something the owner can prevent or fix.
> 
> My Jacks was a very confident and happy puppy.... until he was about 1.5 years old. I don't know if that was the point his thyroid started going bad or the fact we had a very terrible summer for thunderstorms, but I can name the day and time period that he first showed signs of fear and anxiety. Was a stormy Sunday morning - we came home from church to find him cowering in a closet. After that he became progressively and progressively worse until I finally had his thyroid correctly dx. And even then it just helped him become a bit more stabilized, it didn't make his phobias go away.


 Same thing happened with Rocket! He was never afraid of loud noises. Thunderstorms, fireworks, etc. were no big deal. Then last summer he was sleeping in my daughters' room when we had a huge thunderstorm blow over. It knocked a branch off our neighbor's tree, and the branch banged into my daughters' bedroom wall, just feet from where Rocket was sleeping. He panicked, jumped into my daughter's bed (big no-no in our house) and was a shaking, quivering mess. Ever since then, he's been afraid of thunder.


----------



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Leslie B said:


> . . . When we start talking about older dogs and breeding, I am reminded of AFC Holway Barty. He is found in most field Golden pedigrees and is considered a foundation for the talent we see today. He was born of a 10 year old bitch. The litter was an oops but none the less, the talent and ability was there.


Thanks for this interesting info on AFC Holway Barty. I've seen him in so many field pedigrees but have never known anything about him.

I'm also wondering what unthrifty means. . . not thriving??


----------



## blackrpsgt (Apr 21, 2014)

I am new to the Golden Family - but I researched like crazy - I live in MN, and found a breeder in Nebraska and to me the distance to get a good quality dog didn't matter. This family has been breeding protected lines for 50 years with full AKC lineage with certified hips, eyes, heart and elbows, and I was provided with certs of several generations. I have a "blonde" golden and I did not actually care what the color was, but secretly wanted a English blonde. The temperament and intelligence has been beyond my expectations. After I found my breeder, I was in touch via email weekly just to get to know them - almost equivalent to extended family for 7 months until I picked up my girl. Being my first Golden - and being blessed with such a good experience with my breeder - even being 9 hours away -the only advice I can give is- unless it feels right, and its what you want - don't do it. This is your family your are bring in for 14 + years. Make sure its the right decision for you. You don't want to look back wondering ...well - only if I would have...???


----------



## blackrpsgt (Apr 21, 2014)

CSTRONG73-
have you tried the thunder shirt? I had a lab retriever who had same issues with storms and this worked great with him. It just cannot be oversized, Has to fit snug. My boy Oscar would shake the bed he was so scared - and the thunder shirt made a huge difference. Worth a try.


----------



## blackrpsgt (Apr 21, 2014)

*Archer*



ArchersMom said:


> My Archer is an English blend and the perfect dog, for me anyway. He's got a bullet proof temperament, loves everybody he meets especially kids, cuddles on bed with me, can attend fireworks shows, loves shotguns and hunting, let's me vacuum him with my dyson, the lists goes on and on. I would be tempted to get another English blend in hopes of recreating all of his wonderful traits but the truth is I don't think it would make my chances better than if I were to get any other well bred golden. I honestly believe the biggest factor is socialization. The dogs personality plays a part too, and energy level of the dog. I tried very hard to socialize Archer to everything I could, but beyond that I just got lucky


Archer is a beautiful dog. I agree completely on the socialization. I was wondering - if you don't mind - what is his weight? My Kimber looks very similar to him in color, and same with temperament - she is just 5 months old. No sound or person bothers her.


----------



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

He's about 65 lbs. I'd like to get a few more lbs of muscle on him though. Lottie, my other dog always eats all his food if he walks away from it. He should be around 68 lbs I think. That photo was taken when he was 9 months. People always comment on what a big head he has and I think part of the reason they notice might be because he's actually a thin, fit dog lol Here he is 2 months ago, at 14 months out on a hike.


----------



## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

To FBK174, my Luna is US bred with "full European" lines. She has a temperament similar to the description on Archer - nothing phases her. At 10 months, she's passed her CGC, is ready to start her Novice CD trials, and has been exposed to all the standard agility equipment. At 10 months, she's 50 lbs. Although breeding surely makes a difference, early socialization is probably almost as important. I've seen "American" goldens who were schizoid and fearful ( and many show up in the local rescue listings), and my previous American rescue was "bullet proof" like Luna. I wouldn't base my dog selection(or elimination) on whether it was American, European, field, or show. Visit the breeder, look at the parents, look at the environment. I was actually pretty surprised how well the Volhardt tests predicted my puppy's aptitudes and personality.


----------



## AmericanLegacyRetrievers (Aug 15, 2021)

fireside angry birdy said:


> by casually I mean for profit rather than for sport or show. There are so may casual breeders of goldens out there. so many in the northeast that you must search far beyond to find a breeder that does not breed solely for profit.


I do not show my field retrievers I do however train each and everyone one of them prior to them going to there forever home…how in the world is this to be considered casual? My pups go home potty trained, bell trained and understand important commands such as stay with me, settle, and sit, come and leave it. they are all started on leash training and some of my goldens are now certified service animals as a result of my “casual breeding”. I create the best companions I know how to and as Cesar Milan states quite clearly not all dogs are meant to be be show dogs they all just need a job that satisfies that individual dogs needs. I have yet to have an unstable puppy come out of our line and I am insulted to be honest by the absolute arrogance on both sides of this issue. I raise and breed dark red American field retrievers. English retrievers have all but taken over the industry in america so I take my job seriously. To much line breeding in the English line has created higher then normal cancer rates in English retrievers and to state this as untrue goes against every single study. Obesity, hip problems and thyroid issues not to mention the change in body structure has been the painful result. My grandparents bred Golden retrievers most of my childhood they looked nothing like the English breed of today. But a mid gold “field” retriever looks just like yesterday’s ANERICAN golden retriever. So exactly why must I rename MY breed because you want to breed blonde dogs? Anyway I rarely post on these breeders sites because of the negative views towards anyone who chooses not to show a dog as if that makes a breeder. I choose service dogs over show dogs any day of the week and I’ve never seen a dog happy to be groomed for 2 hours in the midst of 100 or so other dogs this isn’t a natural dog job. 
I guess the lesson here is judge lest ye be judged. We’re all in the same business and as long as we’re breeding in a responsible way with some sort of program that assists the dogs entry into its next role in life then what do you care as long as I’m licensed and responsibly breeding my beloved RED American golden retrievers. Donna


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmericanLegacyRetrievers said:


> . But a mid gold “field” retriever looks just like yesterday’s ANERICAN golden retriever. So exactly why must I rename MY breed because you want to breed blonde dogs? Anyway I rarely post on these breeders sites because of the negative views towards anyone who chooses not to show a dog as if that makes a breeder. I choose service dogs over show dogs any day of the week and I’ve never seen a dog happy to be groomed for 2 hours in the midst of 100 or so other dogs this isn’t a natural dog job.
> I guess the lesson here is judge lest ye be judged. We’re all in the same business and as long as we’re breeding in a responsible way with some sort of program that assists the dogs entry into its next role in life then what do you care as long as I’m licensed and responsibly breeding my beloved RED American golden retrievers. Donna


Donna. Donna. Donna... Donna..... 

1. American

2. Show people do not groom dogs at shows for 2 hours. Amateurs do that, I think. 

3. My dogs compete to get up on the table, because they love being up there.  

4. More importantly - as long as all the dogs bred have full clearances (hips and elbows after 24 months, hearts by cardiologist after 12 months, eyes yearly), any time people ask - it would be a positive "looks good" response. Can't say enough, best thing any breeder can do for their program is to dot the i's and cross the T's.


----------



## bjp1627 (Jul 5, 2021)

CharlieBear80 said:


> If you're looking in the north east (which I assume you are since you said you've looked from MA to PA) there are plenty of good breeders around, you just may have to be willing to get on a wait list. Blonde shouldn't be too hard to find either. As for field vs conformation, check out some conformation shows and spend some time with a breeder of field lines if you can. The research, effort and wait will pay off in the end!


Hi I live in Connecticut and am looking for a golden pup. My 12 year old has Lar Par. His parents were master Hunters. I knew nothing of field vs. conformation type. I love my guy but he was really active. I'm in my mid 60's now so looking for a less active pup. Where would I go to see confirmation shows. I looked last Spring and they were only allowing competitors in.


----------



## AmericanLegacyRetrievers (Aug 15, 2021)

Megora said:


> Donna. Donna. Donna... Donna.....
> 
> 1. American
> 
> ...


Megora.. Megora.. Megora ……. MEGORA. What???
1. I have a neuropathy in my hands and sometimes spellcheck does not catch the drag my left hand has in the keyboard. That being said it was unnecessary to show your pettiness by pointing out a simple typo. 

2. That’s wonderful, I’m glad your english loves being shown. Most importantly, I’m thrilled that YOU enjoy it. My point is that all of you have some preconceived idea that your program is better then those like mine. which is simply arrogant and not true. 
3. ALL of my “casually” bred American Golden retrievers go through every conceivable test necessary to be accepted into the program plus embark and hip, joints,eyes etc we do not miss one test that the AKC requires, plus some. Please don’t condescend to those of us who choose not.


----------



## Ffcmm (May 4, 2016)

Dear all, a general reminder to keep to the rules when posting thank you. 
-on behalf of the moderators


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmericanLegacyRetrievers said:


> 3. ALL of my “casually” bred American Golden retrievers go through every conceivable test necessary to be accepted into the program plus embark and hip, joints,eyes etc we do not miss one test that the AKC requires, plus some. Please don’t condescend to those of us who choose not.


I honestly think you are very confused. 

I said as long as you dot your i's and cross your T's....that's basically all that matters if somebody is asking for help regarding a litter. 

People ask for registration names or numbers so these can be looked up on OFA. 

If all is there - posted, finals for the hips/elbows, etc. That's the extent that people look. 

AKC does not require any tests. They don't give a hoot as long as dogs are registered.

GRCA (golden retriever club of America) DOES require the 4 main clearances + there's more items in the code of ethics. 

4 main clearances are:

Hips and elbows after 24 months (not prelims) - and posted on OFA. 
Currently OFA is the only database that not only is publicly accessible, but also requires dogs be older than 24 months. 

Hearts - cleared by cardiologist after 12 months. No practitioners. 

Eyes need to be cleared yearly the entire lives of the dogs. Reason why is because PU shows up in middle age, long after dogs have been used for breeding. 


If your dog has all 4 checked and posted publicly on OFA - your dog is eligible for CHIC. Which means that your dog has satisfied all clearance requirements for the breed. 

DNA has not currently been added to the required clearances, although that may yet happen based on the many conversations regarding the subject. 

For most people DNA is done pretty early with their breeding dogs.... but they have to hold off and wait until after 24 months when dogs are eligible for hips/elbows clearances. 

^^^^ All of this typed, because pet people are confuses as it is about what responsible breeders do in order to get the hat tip. If you want a litter listed with many breed referrals with golden retriever clubs, they don't care what titles the dogs have or what the dogs look like or who you are. The clearances need to all be there.


----------



## AmericanLegacyRetrievers (Aug 15, 2021)

Megora said:


> *2. Show people do not groom dogs at shows for 2 hours. Amateurs do that, I think*


EXACTLY…finally someone is honest that’s it about the humans and NOT the dogs. “show people” absolutely do groom, blow dry and fluff the dogs at the shows and if those ppl are amateurs then they sure have a huge set up that looks amazingly professional to me. There are assistants, straight irons blow dryers, curling irons…. Curling irons gross. I saw a dog so tied up that they even had her tail tied aloft. That dog looked unhappy, when I train my puppies/dogs they love every minute of it. To pretend there is not a nasty underbelly to your industry is straight up lying and for the life of me I can’t see any benefit except for the narcissistic breeder who wants to be the “best”. This isn’t about the dog it’s about money and esteem, I promise you my owners would rather have a puppy fully potty trained, bell trained and obedience trained then one of yours that just gets raised and sold because your so busy working on the dogs that you show. 
Stop lying to ppl when they come here for questions about what is best the poor OP has now cut out everyone in the business who legitimately strive to have small businesses not cattle farm like operations. WE teach the pups how to be productive FAMILY pets and if they qualify support animals but ALL of my puppies get the same training. And in my business, we don’t throw away a bitch because she is unable to breed any longer, we use her as a stable Influence on the other dogs in our pack. Tsk tsk tsk……..


----------



## AmericanLegacyRetrievers (Aug 15, 2021)

Megora said:


> I honestly think you are very confused.
> 
> I said as long as you dot your i's and cross your T's....that's basically all that matters if somebody is asking for help regarding a litter.
> 
> ...


1. Service dogs are required to have these tests. And any responsible breeder would do them in any case. 
2. Read above to the answers that were given to OP….she is now completely confused because you ppl led her to believe that dogs that are shown are better, not true at all. 
Watch just one dog show and they will always go to the back where the dogs are getting beautified….to claim those ppl are amateurs in a televised dog show is naive…maybe your neighborhood dog show but not the shows that really count.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

AmericanLegacyRetrievers said:


> she is now completely confused because you ppl led her to believe that dogs that are shown are better, not true at all


I think you are very very confused about what you are talking about.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

It really does look like two people having completely separate conversations and Donna seems to be the one who is insisting on confusion.

This thread is seven years old. I am sure the OP if they still participate is thoroughly confused since I am sure if they wanted a puppy, they have it by now. Nothing like the resurrection of a Frankenstein-thread for a good time. 

Donna you seem to have a very inaccurate and unflattering vision of people that compete with their dogs. Why do people that compete with their dogs to get an independent expert evaluation of conformation, obedience, hunt, etc. deserve your vitriol? Where has anyone on this thread said anything unflattering about service dogs?

Most service dog organizations are thrilled to have the ability to add titled dogs to their programs because there is valuable knowledge there. A friend of mine recently donated a puppy to CCI and the hope seems to be that assuming the puppy passes the appropriate health certification, they will be most valuable as a breeding dog since the parents are both structurally sound conformation dogs with solid temperaments. Having proven qualities wether that is structure and soundness evalated in conformation or bidability and intelligence in obedience/hunt work seems to have a major draw to service dog producing programs. 

It seems like this thread was dredged up so it could be presented as a personal attack though I can’t really understand why. 

The most basic indicator of responsible breeders is in full and verifiable health certifications on breeding dogs. So, Donna I would be curious if you are willing to back your claims. If you do have as wonderful program as you say you do, please post the OFA links with full certifications to the parents of your two most recent litters.

Since I am a walk the walk type of person who doesn’t ask others to do something I won’t do myself, I have not had a litter in a while but here are the keeper puppies form my last two litters which are now old enough and have their own OFA certifications in place.





Advanced Search | OFA







www.ofa.org









Advanced Search | OFA







www.ofa.org





It certainly is an odd conversation at this point.


----------



## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I love all good goldens. How about this guy Manny, who is all of the above a field dog, an American dog, and an English blend all at once ? Pedigree: HRCH CH Beau Geste Being Ramiroz CDX MH WCX** DDHF VCX


Interesting to see Sh Ch Channri Carlos in his pedigree. Some of my girls go back to him and I awarded him a CC. He was a lovely dog. His owner now has one of my girls. Annef


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

AmericanLegacyRetrievers said:


> EXACTLY…finally someone is honest that’s it about the humans and NOT the dogs. “show people” absolutely do groom, blow dry and fluff the dogs at the shows and if those ppl are amateurs then they sure have a huge set up that looks amazingly professional to me. There are assistants, straight irons blow dryers, curling irons…. Curling irons gross. I saw a dog so tied up that they even had her tail tied aloft. That dog looked unhappy, when I train my puppies/dogs they love every minute of it. To pretend there is not a nasty underbelly to your industry is straight up lying and for the life of me I can’t see any benefit except for the narcissistic breeder who wants to be the “best”. This isn’t about the dog it’s about money and esteem, I promise you my owners would rather have a puppy fully potty trained, bell trained and obedience trained then one of yours that just gets raised and sold because your so busy working on the dogs that you show.
> Stop lying to ppl when they come here for questions about what is best the poor OP has now cut out everyone in the business who legitimately strive to have small businesses not cattle farm like operations. WE teach the pups how to be productive FAMILY pets and if they qualify support animals but ALL of my puppies get the same training. And in my business, we don’t throw away a bitch because she is unable to breed any longer, we use her as a stable Influence on the other dogs in our pack. Tsk tsk tsk……..


Donna, how about you post the OFA links for your breeding animals? There are no American Legacy prefixes on OFA and the only Golden with those two words in name is no-reg.
No one lies here when someone comes to ask for an assessment on a breeding pair. I'd posit we are all quite honest. 
It's a very carefully done assessment- only the clearances on OFA are pointed out, and if lacking, well, that's on the breeder. It's easy enough to have a full OFA record IF one does full clearances.
I can't figure out why you went to an ancient thread to start posting- did someone mention you there as a prior kennel name?

Having shown dogs for many decades, I cannot recall a single time seeing a curling iron on a Golden table. What would be the use in the Golden? Where is a Golden supposed to have curls?
Only once have I seen a straightening iron and I suspect it was there for the Toy dog also crated @ that setup.
Of course there are blow dryers. What's wrong w a blow dryer?
For that matter, what's wrong w showing dogs?
"then one of yours that just gets raised and sold because your so busy working on the dogs that you show."
Spelling aside, whaaaat? No one here does this. And I doubt you potty.crate.bell and obedience train puppies AS PUPPIES and sell them. Who are you even talking to here? And why?
And yes- those OFA links.. I'd love to see them.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> Donna, how about you post the OFA links for your breeding animals? There are no American Legacy prefixes on OFA and the only Golden with those two words in name is no-reg.
> .....


Crickets.......


----------



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

What defines a "Field" Golden Retriever? I get the impression that many think it means the smaller end of the standard size and darker end of the standard in color.
Many "Field" Goldens do have those traits but what defines them is proven ability in the field. JH and WCX prove nothing.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> Having shown dogs for many decades, I cannot recall a single time seeing a curling iron on a Golden table. What would be the use in the Golden? Where is a Golden supposed to have curls?
> Only once have I seen a straightening iron and I suspect it was there for the Toy dog also crated @ that setup.
> Of course there are blow dryers. What's wrong w a blow dryer?
> For that matter, what's wrong w showing dogs?


Other thing that came to mind was the fact that the type of care the dogs getting when being groomed - even if it's a 2 hour grooming session at a handler's place or whatever.... it's better care than dogs get at public groomers like at petstores in some cases. The grooming is a ton better too.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I mean… 2 hours is 1/12 of a day, so not that much in the grand scheme of things. What a wild Frankenstein thread.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Donna Giaquinto Varady, Olympia WA- 
ya gonna post your OFA links?


----------

