# My Dog Doesn't Respect/Trust Me?



## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

So its a beautiful day and I decided to bring the C man to the dog park. He was having a great time and in between visiting with the dogs I wanted to practice his recall and he only came to me once. As soon as there is another dog in the area I am dust in the wind. But I keep trying and even brought hot dog bits.
After a while a young Shep comes into the park and starts playing rough with C. Then a JRT decides that he wants to beat up on my dog too. I ask both owners to get their dogs off my dog and I'll give them credit for trying. I am calling C to me the entire time but he isn't listening - probably because he is trying to run away from these two dogs? He keeps getting pinned down by these two dogs and trying to run away. Finally, he stops running and stands next to another lady who is standing next to me. :doh::doh: I leashed him up and got out of there. 

BTW, why is it that every time I take him to the park it always ends with two dogs going after my dog?

So, I'm thinking one of the following:
1. Cocasse didn't want to listen to me period?
2. He thought that he could shake them off himself? - wasn't going to happen.
3. He doesn't trust me to help him?
4. He doesn't respect me?
5. All of the above?

He listens very well in the house/backyard/on walks. 

Thoughts/suggestions are welcome.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

C's Mom said:


> So, I'm thinking one of the following:
> 1. Cocasse didn't want to listen to me period?
> 2. He thought that he could shake them off himself? - wasn't going to happen.
> 3. He doesn't trust me to help him?
> ...


"Trust" and "respect" are human words and make us feel good (or not...) and I don't know that they're all that applicable to looking at our relationships with animals. Though I'm sure some will argue on that!

He either doesn't want to listen to you or doesn't know to listen to you at the park. Have you gone at times where it is not busy and practiced recalls? Go to someplace besides the dogpark, have him on a long line and call him back and forth with a friend/family member. Feed him super high value treats. Gradually move further apart. ONLY use his recall cue if you are willing to bet $100 he will respond correctly. If you call him and he doesn't come, he has an imperfect response associated with his cue...and that's not what you want. 

At the same time, he probably doesn't have enough of a reinforcement history to come to you when he is playing. That means you need to practice a lot more, even at home where he is good... to build up that history of reinforcement. Think of it as a skill...I'm just learning how to text message on my phone. I can do it at home, where it's quiet, but if I was at the park, the new locations and new distractions would make it more difficult for me to perform. But if I had practiced a lot and a lot at home, I would be much more fluent and able to respond in new places without necessarily practiced in those settings... (...er...maybe not the best analogy? My point is, just because he does it at home, that doesn't mean he's REALLY good at it).

Dogs are not people. Most dogs will not go to get help when they are playing and get in trouble. He may also have been perceiving it as play. It's not about "Trust", it's about he's a dog and you're a human and there's no reason he should go towards you when he's in trouble there. His best response is to give lots of "pleae go away" signals to the other dogs.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

So, I'm thinking one of the following:
1. Cocasse didn't want to listen to me period?
2. He thought that he could shake them off himself? - wasn't going to happen.
3. He doesn't trust me to help him?
4. He doesn't respect me?
5. All of the above?

He listens very well in the house/backyard/on walks. 

Thoughts/suggestions are welcome. 


6. None of the above

He just isn't trained enough to handle the situation he was in.

From your comments above he is well trained under no distractions and low distractions.
You need to work on his training in higher distractions but in ones that you set up and control yourself. 
Use areas with lower distraction levels than the dog park. Maybe starting out on a long line in front of your own home. Work on his recall when you see other dogs in the distance. After a lot of repetition at a distance shorten your distance in small increments.
Set up some mutual training time with another owner and a known dog friend. Again use area of low distraction such as your yard or theirs. Lots of repetition. 
Again don't use the dog park to practice but maybe go to an enclosed tennis court when not in use and practice just you and your dog. Then after lots of repetition again add in another dog friend and owner.
Upping the anti to add more than one dog friend and owner at a time. 
It is also very important that he doesn't have the opportunity to fail. If there is a chance he won't come to you when you call him don't do it. Just go and gently/physically get him. Every time he doesn't come it sets the habit that he doesn't need to come.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

This has all been wonderful advise! How long have you had him? If I am remembering right, it's not been that long. It takes time to earn their trust and respect, especially a rescue. Just keep at it, I think you are doing great. Maybe hold off from the dog park for awhile. This is not right that is is attacked by these other dogs. Can you talk to someone about it?? Have you guys been through a training class yet? That will quicken up the bonding and give him so self confidence. Hang in there !!:smooch:


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Ok, we are going to hunker down in the medium distraction area and go from there.

When I am walking him on leash and give him a loose leash to nose around and call him back to me he comes each and every time no matter where we are.

I really like the mutual owner advice. He does have a female dog that he plays really well with and both dogs have a hard time with recall. I'm going to start working with him when she is around.

So, whats with the dogs always ganging up on my dog? What is that all about?


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Claire's Friend said:


> This has all been wonderful advise! How long have you had him? If I am remembering right, it's not been that long. It takes time to earn their trust and respect, especially a rescue. Just keep at it, I think you are doing great. Maybe hold off from the dog park for awhile. This is not right that is is attacked by these other dogs. Can you talk to someone about it?? Have you guys been through a training class yet? That will quicken up the bonding and give him so self confidence. Hang in there !!:smooch:


Thanks SM. I've had the C man for 4 1/2 months now and he has come a long way from the timid/scared dog I first brought home. I was walking him yesterday and we passed by large garbage bins without any problem at all. I remember when I first brought him home he would cower in fear and try to run away from them. This isn't to say that he doesn't have issues but I'm really proud of the progess he's made.

I was hoping to take him to class but the latest dentist appt.tapped me out (have to go back for more) so will have to start saving again for both.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Your local parks may have training classes that are quite reasonable in cost. Also many trainers can always use extra help so you might be able to work off the cost of his training. 4 1/2 months is not long at all considering what he has gone through. Just keep working with him, loving him up and you will have the best dog ever !! Some dogs, and I have only seen this in boys, neutered boys, just seem to put out some kind of scent or something that says "Get me" to other dogs. Maybe some others know more about this.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

We just got back from the park and I was hoping that C's girlfriend would show up so that we could practice his recall but she must have been washing her hair. 

I did practice a bit with him and he did great. I also made him sit and leave it when another dog walked by and he did that great too. Now to keep doing it and be consistent. I know this is going to take a while but I'm determined to do it for both our sakes.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

I read somewhere that dogs actually can't "hear" a command when their prey drive is operating. Roxy ignores my recall when she starts to chase a car going by our front yard. Everyone's suggestions about practicing recalls with progressively increasing distractions are right on. Today our neighbor was getting ready to leave in her car and Roxy was getting ready to chase. I called her several times and she came to me. 

BTW, I think Cocasse and Roxy may have a little shepard in their background. They both have the long, narrow head and Roxy has a well developed prey drive.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

jimla said:


> I read somewhere that dogs actually can't "hear" a command when their prey drive is operating. Roxy ignores my recall when she starts to chase a car going by our front yard. Everyone's suggestions about practicing recalls with progressively increasing distractions are right on. Today our neighbor was getting ready to leave in her car and Roxy was getting ready to chase. I called her several times and she came to me.
> 
> BTW, I think Cocasse and Roxy may have a little shepard in their background. They both have the long, narrow head and Roxy has a well developed prey drive.


MYTH.

Dogs can hear, even when in prey drive. But prey drive is very powerful and getting a dog to recall out of chasing something takes A. a strong reinforcement history and B. lots of practice coming when called when wanting to chase.

I can do off leash, mid-chase squirrel call-offs with Quiz, but only b/c we practice it a lot on leash where I can make sure he's successful so that I can reward like crazy.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think one of the reasons Penny's recall is so solid is that she stayed on the leash or long line for a very long time: almost 4 years. Between that and the invisible fence at home, she never failed. There was no option other than to come to me. When she didn't respond to her recall, I'd start reeling her in saying "Good girl" and "Good Come" and treat even though she hadn't really volunteered to come.

I agree it isn't about trust or respect. It sounds to me like he goes into 'every man for himself' mode when at the park and being attacked. 

As for your question about why the attacks: Dogs use the language of body language. Watch closely next time. I'm sure you'll see him give signs of submissiveness to the other dogs. The other dogs are ramped up and getting carried away with their play. All the humans involved should carefully supervise the play, watching for the escalation. The play needs to be stopped, dogs separated before it gets out of hand. Unfortunately, it will happen every time with the same dogs because they know they can do it with him.

If it were my dog, I'd either avoid the park (we never go to dog parks because Penny is shy with other dogs) or leave if the other dogs are there.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

"I'm sure you'll see him give signs of submissiveness to the other dogs. "
I am not sure this is entirely true, but I am not expert. Both dogs that we had like this were very big Golden boys, they got neutered late in life and had been ranch dogs. Every time we would walk, on leash, we would get attacked. Other dogs (off leash) would charge them. Both boys would not react at all, no growls, nothing until the other dog made contact. Then they would grab the other dog, flip them to the ground and hold them there until someone pulled them off. Never actually hurt another dog. People of course would be scream to get my vicious dog off of theirs.
I could never figure out what is was setting them off, I thought it must be a smell or something.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

My four year old Golden, Marty, has really settled down within the last year - and with that, his recall and manners, are quite good. I think a lot of what you are experiencing has to do with being a young dog. It seems like you are on the right path. You are working with him and asking others what they think. Thats how you get experience - and he is going to fail you from time to time, and you will fail him. 

Something I noticed that worked for me was carrying his leash with me. I wanted my three Goldens to be able to run like the wind at the dog park - but all in the same direction. My girls stay right within my range - and in the same direction. My 4 year old, would go with whatever inspired him. I saw that as a problem - because then I wasn't in control of him. He could knock someome down, get into the middle of a ruckus, or someone might leave with him because he is a keeper . . . So I started carrying his leash as we walked the trails of our dog park and would watch his body language - what gets his attention - is he getting too far ahead -and by doing that, I could anticipate his next move : )

So, if his nose and ears perk up and he is looking in another direction, I say "uh, uh, Marty, stay with me". He knows what I mean. If he gets too far ahead of me, I call him in. Then if he doesn't respond - I don't chase him, but I do make my way over to him and put the leash on him. So he has to walk the park with me. If someone says something - and they do - I say I am working with him. After maybe another 15 minutes, I will put him in a sit, take his leash off, and give him permission to run and sniff and play . . . but he has to stay close enough that I can get to him if necessary . . . and somehow I think we both know what that is. He looks back at me and I know he is checking . . . . they are a lot smarter than we realize.

I can tell you that this worked for me - with him. After a lot time together, he is very, very well behaved and I have a dog I can take anywhere and pretty much trust his behavior. Keep doing what you are doing - it will come - time and maturity - and a confident and positive attitude are key.

Hope this helps.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

jimla said:


> BTW, I think Cocasse and Roxy may have a little shepard in their background. They both have the long, narrow head and Roxy has a well developed prey drive.


Jim, I have often thought the same thing about C. He seems much longer to me also. I have even considered that he is part Collie (Gollie) because of the narrow face. 
I've had people with tell me he is small and skinny but I think he is doing good. We go to the vet tomorrow so it will be interesting to see what the vet says. 
How big is Roxy and how much does she weigh? Are you sure she isn't originally from Montreal like Mr. C? LOL


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I can do off leash, mid-chase squirrel call-offs with Quiz, but only b/c we practice it a lot on leash where I can make sure he's successful so that I can reward like crazy.


How do you reward like crazy? Verbal or treat? I'm trying both but wonder if I should stick with one or the other?


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

wishihad2goldens said:


> As for your question about why the attacks: Dogs use the language of body language. Watch closely next time. I'm sure you'll see him give signs of submissiveness to the other dogs. The other dogs are ramped up and getting carried away with their play. All the humans involved should carefully supervise the play, watching for the escalation. The play needs to be stopped, dogs separated before it gets out of hand. Unfortunately, it will happen every time with the same dogs because they know they can do it with him.
> 
> If it were my dog, I'd either avoid the park (we never go to dog parks because Penny is shy with other dogs) or leave if the other dogs are there.


I think what happened was that the Shep who came into the park immediately started the rough play with C. Cocasse was visiting all the other dogs nicely and running with those who wanted to run. Once this Shep had C down the JRT joined in the pinning. 
I so wish that owners who have rough playing dogs would stay out of the park. I wonder which dog the Shep went after next. I heard the owner calling after her dog again as we were walking away but I didn't look back to see because I just wanted out of there. 
No more big dog park for us until I know that C has got his recall down 100% and even then I'll have to think about it. For now, its the local park for us where I have some control over which dogs he gets near.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Marty's Mom said:


> So, if his nose and ears perk up and he is looking in another direction, I say "uh, uh, Marty, stay with me". He knows what I mean. If he gets too far ahead of me, I call him in. Then if he doesn't respond - I don't chase him, but I do make my way over to him and put the leash on him. So he has to walk the park with me. If someone says something - and they do - I say I am working with him. After maybe another 15 minutes, I will put him in a sit, take his leash off, and give him permission to run and sniff and play . . . but he has to stay close enough that I can get to him if necessary . . . and somehow I think we both know what that is. He looks back at me and I know he is checking . . . . they are a lot smarter than we realize.
> 
> I can tell you that this worked for me - with him. After a lot time together, he is very, very well behaved and I have a dog I can take anywhere and pretty much trust his behavior. Keep doing what you are doing - it will come - time and maturity - and a confident and positive attitude are key.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thanks, it does help. I'm hoping that in the years to come together we will come to understand each other well. I am willing to work on it because I want him to be happy and safe too.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> MYTH.
> 
> Dogs can hear, even when in prey drive. But prey drive is very powerful and getting a dog to recall out of chasing something takes A. a strong reinforcement history and B. lots of practice coming when called when wanting to chase.


It must be a myth because I could not find the source of the information. I found a website with more good training methods for controlling chasing:
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk

C's mom: Roxy has fear aggression with other dogs so I can't take her to dog parks. I take her to play class with a trainer which is really helping her learn better dog manners. Will send you a pm with more about Roxy.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

C's Mom said:


> How do you reward like crazy? Verbal or treat? I'm trying both but wonder if I should stick with one or the other?


I always pair treats with verbal praise and petting. By doingso, I'm classically conditioning my praise and petting to mean more to the dog.

When I'm rewarding recalls, I lavishly reward for AT LEAST 15-20 seconds. Prasie, petting and a constant stream of tiny, tiny little treats doled out one at a time.


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> When I'm rewarding recalls, I lavishly reward for AT LEAST 15-20 seconds. Prasie, petting and a constant stream of tiny, tiny little treats doled out one at a time.


Oh, I like that. I was only giving him one piece of food but if he knows that he will get more he may run back even faster. Will try that today in our training. 
C really likes it when I say "who is mommy's good boy" and people look at me funny but who cares. As long as he comes when I call its all good.


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