# Innova Evo - Should we go back onto kibble?



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

My Mother in Laws Greyhound is on it...and doing great and she loves it...
Seneca went through a half dozen foods to find one that would agree with her...she has been on it for 6 months+/- and her coat looks great...


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## hawtee (Nov 1, 2006)

I use Evo & Salmon Oil for both of mine and they are doing great (been on it for 4 years). I like to keep it interesting for them and will sometimes add different ingredients like yogurt,green beans, tripe, cottgage cheese, pumpkin etc..


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## kalkid (Feb 22, 2007)

A lot of folks feed EVO around here including me. I tried Daisy on a bunch of foods from Nutro, to Wellness, to Canidae and finally to EVO. It is the first food that has agreed with her system and also helped out a bunch in terms of her scratching and coat issues related to allergies. Not sure on the breath thing. I brush her teeth and occasionally give her a listerine breath strip partly to help her breath and also just because it's funny to watch her face when she "eats" one.


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## My4Boys (Dec 14, 2007)

Baxter is getting Canidae dry with Innova canned, as is his border collie brother and both are doing great on the combo. I know a woman at the park who feeds her golden only Innova kibble, after trying many different foods, and he is doing well.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Evo is great. My dogs do well on it when I feed it.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I've always heard good things about Evo and I'm certain your dog would do fine on it. If you do decide to continue with a raw diet there is also no reason your dog shouldn't flourish, provided you are feeding correctly. I'm not sure how much research you have done on the subject (and I'm not saying anything you've done thus far is wrong, because I don't know), but if you're in the market for some information I would recommend "Give Your Dog a Bone" by Dr. Ian Billinghurst. It really breaks down what the dog needs and how to make sure your dog is getting a "balanced diet." I feel like I've been tossing this book title out daily recently, and swear I"m not picking up any royalties off it... I just think it's a very informative guide, and it's the only book on this particular subject I've personally looked through!

Julie and Jersey


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Abbie is Innova Evo and has done well on it....I do give Maggie a mix of the Evo and Canidae. I also put the salmon oil and other stuff on there food.


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## gold'nchocolate (May 31, 2005)

Jersey's Mom said:


> If you do decide to continue with a raw diet there is also no reason your dog shouldn't flourish, provided you are feeding correctly.
> 
> but if you're in the market for some information I would recommend "Give Your Dog a Bone" by Dr. Ian Billinghurst. It really breaks down what the dog needs and how to make sure your dog is getting a "balanced diet."
> Julie and Jersey


I'm not familiar with the brand of food that you are presently feeding your dog so I don't have any opinion except to say that a good quality kibble is better than a lower quality raw diet. Here is another good e-book that you can read right on the internet called "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/ww.pdf 

If it is a thyroid problem then I don't think that any food you give will improve her coat without the proper amount of thyroid hormone in her system. I have low thyroid and I can always tell when it's time to adjust my medication by the condition of my hair.


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

EVO is a great quality kibble, hope that works out better for her!! There are some other premade raw mixes that you don't need to add anything to (Nature's Variety raw patties) that may work for her if you want to try another raw option.


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Thank you all for your positive feedback. I will probably buy a small bag of EVO this weekend to try. At this point I really do not know if it's a thyroid issue or a nutritional deficiency. Her attitude and energy level are the best I have ever seen on this raw food so if I see a downslide on kibble we will be going back to raw but "real" raw i.e., no premix - just meat and veggies, oils & bones.

I've made a vet appointment for her on Saturday morning with the original clinic and vet we used to see. This vet has been there 18 years and knows what she's doing. I am always full of wonder if we are treating the thyroid properly. Last blood test in December showed the T4 level lower than before medication was started. The vet told me to just leave it and we'll retest in heartworm season (April) as there were no behavioural changes so he thought maybe the test was flawed. I am so flippin confused because at this clinic we have seen 3 different vets. One strongly encouraged me to take her off the meds (before seeing the test results that showed the levels lower than before meds) and insisted that she now has a heart murmer. This vet was trying to tell me she is being medicated and doesn't need to be. In the next sentence though, she tells me my dog's heart rate is 66 bpm and when a dog hits around 60 it's usually when they are unconscious and an emergency. (slow heart rate is a symptom of low thyroid, heart murmer is a symptom of hyper thyroid). I don't really think they know what they're doing in regard to her thyroid meds and her condition. I don't want to change her food until after the blood test is taken on Saturday. 

Thanks for your positive words!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Do be careful of the extremely high levels of protein in EVO. Someone just recently asked me (through PM) to evaluate it. It calculated out to 47% (on a 100% dry matter basis)... the AAFCO's nutrient profiles suggest 18% as a minimum for adult dogs. Any protein not used for building or repairing of muscle or for energy (dogs bodies prefer to use carbs for the first few minutes and then use fats... protein is usually the last source used for energy) must be eliminated from the body... this can be very hard on the kidneys. If your dog's kidneys are going you will not get any warning signs until its too late... if you are lucky a blood workup during the yearly vet visit might be timed right that the vet gets to see elevated creatine and BUN numbers otherwise you will be shocked when your dog starts throwing up food and water and then dies. If your dog is not an athlete or engaged in hard strenuous work I would be very careful of just how much protein you chose to feed him/her... and have the vet do bloodwork twice a year. This goes for you raw feeders too... our Kimo ate raw for the previous 8+ years before he suddenly died of kidney failure at the age of 10-1/2yrs, please try to learn something from my sad experience/lesson.

Also EVO appears to have 20% more calcium than the AAFCO's recommended *maximum* of 2.5% ... long-term this could lead to serious problems of calcifying of the body's organs. Please be careful when diddling with your dog's diet.


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## murphysmom80 (Feb 12, 2008)

I've been feeding Solid Gold with great success, my Golden with allergies has really thrived! I give 2000 mg of fish oil capsules (people supplements) each day in addtion.


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Thank you Monomer for your input on Evo. The extreme high protein is a concern for me and I am very confused. Have you done an analysis on Orijen? I would be very interested to get your opinion. My dog was on Orijen for 3 months before we went to raw. She had horrible breath which was not based in her mouth. It was suggested to me that the kibble was fermenting in her stomach but I wonder if it was a liver or kidney reaction????? Her breath smelt like poop. Things cleared up almost instantly when we went raw.


Are there any moderate protein level foods with no grain on the market?


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## kalkid (Feb 22, 2007)

Not to stir up any trouble but as usual there are multiple schools of thought on high protein diets. There is just as much if not more research showing there is no relationship between protein levels and kidney failure and it is more likely it is related to starches and additives and preservatives not protein. Goldilocks almost all grain free foods like EVO, Wellness Core, Orijen and the couple others are high protein. Of those lines the Wellness Core is the lowest protein at around 34% while the other two are in the 40's. If you're truly worried about high protein I would stick with Canidae, the regular Wellness or maybe the Eagle Pack lines. They still have some grain but it is good quality grain. To be honest it is kind of a contradiction to want grain free but not high protein. The calories and energy source has to come from somewhere. If it was grain free meaning low carb and then low or moderate protein you're only other option for caloric content is high fat which I think most would agree isn't the way to go. Here's an article with some food for thought. Of course this subject has been highly argued recently especially since the advent of the newer no carb or low carb diets in humans. I realize the article is from a dog food manufacturer but it does reference independent factual studies and gives another viewpoint. As usual it boils down to your own comfort level. If high protein worries you than by all means look elsewhere but as I said I'm not sure grain free and low or moderate protein foods exist.

http://www.wysong.net/hpkidney.shtml


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## My4Boys (Dec 14, 2007)

Have you looked into Prairie by Nature's Variety? Looks like they offer two lines of grain free food as well as raw. Here's the link:
http://www.naturesvariety.com/content.lasso?page=1136

I bought a few cans of this when I was researching a new canned food for my dogs and they both liked it very much.


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## kalkid (Feb 22, 2007)

Yeah the grain free line looks great but it's still high protein. I would guess the "prairie line" which isn't grain free is still real good quality as well.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm at work right now (but technically I'm still on my own time) however I have a lecture to give in 20-minutes so I will try to give a brief response now...

I took a quick look at Orijen and it looks more "balanced" in several ways as compared to the EVO but the protein content is even HIGHER at almost 49% on an as per dried basis. At an earlier time it was proposed that protein was the "cause" of kidneys going into failure but later studies have suggested that that might not be so, however what everyone does agree on is that high protein levels do cause accelerated kidney failure in a kidney that has begun to deterioate... often the difference between having as much as 4-years more with your pet verses an agonizing 4-days 'til his/her death. So if your pet's kidneys begin its deterioration in between the annual vet visits or your vet doesn't do blood work in an exam, then feeding a high level of protein (far more than what your pet even needs) is going to accelerate that destruction to the point of your pet finally showing symptoms of the failure... by then ~70-80% of kidney function has been destroyed and your pet is going to die within just a matter of days. Whereas if you were feeding a more modest amount of protein in the diet the chance of your pet's failing kidneys being discovered in the earliest stages by the vet will be much improved and you might therefore be able to extend his/her life for more happy years together with a more appropriate diet. Also I should mention here that the quality of the protein is MUCH more important than the quantity in that with poor quality protein much of it is just going to have to be eliminated by the body and that then continues to place that much more stress upon the kidneys. So to summarize: More modest amounts of protein to match your pet's level of activities is better, high-quality protein sources is a MUST, have your vet do a blood workup at the yearly exam and go to semi-annual physical check-ups with bloodwork when your best friend has turned 7-years. These are just my suggestions. I really have to go to work now...

BTW, failing kidneys rank somewhere in the top three causes of death of pets (cats and dogs)


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Okay, just got back from lecture... so I will add just a bit more...

Bad breath can be cause from a number of possible sources, of which fermentation by-products is just one. However before jumping to a conclusion that it must have been the food because it went away after switching to a new diet, you must return to feeding the old diet one more time to see if the bad breath returns. You cannot positively conclude it was the food causing the bad breath without this verification step. So if the bad breath comes back after feeding the old diet only THEN you can say it was the diet... a comparison of the ingredients between the two diets might then hint at the problem or connection so as to avoid the problem in the future. The only actual cases I've had with a dog's breath smelling exactly like poop was with a "poop eater" (you knew that one was coming ) and a case of a piece of vinyl toy partially obstructing the digestive system down near the colon. My dog actually was able to finally bring that piece of vinyl all the way back up through his system to puke it out... preceding it was POOP! looking and smelling exactly like it would coming out of the other end... (reminds me of 'that' South Park episode... if you've seen it you know which one I'm referring to). BTW, grains are not necessarily bad, you just probably don't want it to dominate the ingredients list, but be careful as there are several tricks that can (and are) played to make a particular formulation appear to have less grain than it really does. 'All-meat' diets are also not desirable even if it includes organ meats so don't be too quick to dismiss the value of grains.

High fat diets are not necessarily undesireable... it more depends upon how hard you work your dog. I won't go into it here (you can just do a forum search for all the details) but a dog's energy requirement for carbs is not high but some is necessary to provide for 'instant energy' needs, however the main preferred source to meet longer term energy needs is fats. A dog expected to work not only hard but for very long periods of time (especially on a daily basis) can require huge amounts of fat in the diet. Bottomline is... You need to tailor the fat in your dog's diet to the level of activity your dog is expected to do. Animal fat (lards, the solid stuff) is a good source for energy requirements however some Omegas (the liquid oils) are needed in specific proportions as well because fats also have other bodily functions beside meeting energy requirements. It must contain some Omega 6 (an essential fat that the dog's body absolutely canNOT synthesize) and levels of Omega 3s are becoming very important even though a dog can synthesize some of his/her needs from other fats. The focus over the last 10-years or so has been on the ratio of Omega 6 to 3... any reputable manufacturer of dog food that is adding some source of Omega 3s (either fish oils or the less preferred plant sourced oils) should have the balance near the appropriate range (the precise ratio is still being contested but anywhere between 3:1 to 12:1 is considered close enough).


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

About thyroid. A dog can show several or NO symptons. our first golden, Scooter ballooned up, got 'lazy", started ossing his fur and it got kinda coarse, and he also had a change in temprement. Test showed low thryoid, meds and diet got him back in shape and he went back to being his old sweet self. He had just turned 4 at time of diagnosis.

Several years later i schedueld his full brother, later litter, for dental. Buck was 10. i had the full panel done on him and both vet and i were shocked at his extremely low thyroid level. In fact, it was so low Rickey said Buck may not have woken up after the dental. he showed not one sing--thick, shiney, soft fur, trotted instead of walked, would walk for hours if you could last long enough, no weight gain, no change in temprement. Got him on the meds and 3 months later his thyroid was level. A year later it was low enough his meds had to e increaed from one .8 soloxine a day to 1 1/2 .8 a day.

As to the protien, everything i am reading now says older dogs need more rather than less as previously thought. I have KayCee, age 8 1/2 on Taste of the Wil High Prairie which is bison and deer 9plus other meats including fish), fruts and veggies but no grains. I am thinking the protein is 34% but can' recall for sure. I know the Wetlands (duck) is the same and the fish forumla is about 28.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Just read the article linked to above from Wysong... their conclusions are obviously quite self-serving, which is not necessarily an indictment in itself but I did note what appeared to be a contradiction in their summation.

1. Protein may not be a factor in slowing the kidney disease progression-- 

2. ...The poorer the quality of the protein and the more it is processed, the more "junk" protein must be excreted by the body putting stress on the kidneys.



Either the processing of excess protein stresses the kidneys (you should read that as "destruction of the kidneys") or not, it sort of appears they want it both ways. Without being able to review the source material and studies myself I can't truly be sure but it feels like they 'cherry picked' the research to make their point (or pitch).


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

3 goldens said:


> ...As to the protien, everything i am reading now ...


Please be careful of WHERE exactly you are doing this reading and look for 'hidden' motivations. I've had quite a bit of practice at reading actual studies and often find many times the conclusions drawn could not really be substantiated by the way the actual study was designed or problems in the way they were actually conducted. Many studies are, unfortunately, flawed and to so are their conclusions, that's why so often study after study comes out with each contradicting the other. You should try when possible to seek sources with no axes to grind and no products to sell.


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Monomer, thank you for all your research and comments on this matter. 

Good point on the bad breath. If I go back to kibble I will try the Orijen again and see if the breath issue returns. She never ate poop and is never outside unattended so I know for sure it was something else.

My Golden regularly (i.e., 2 times + per week) goes to doggy daycare and is there for 10 hours a day. It's a large place - out in the country, many acres and she plays hard, runs a lot with the other dogs and swims in the summer. She is outside in the heat in the summer and the Canadian cold in the winter. I would feel comfortable feeding her the higher performance food as long as she is actively attending daycare. She is completely exhausted and wants nothing to do with us in the evenings when she's been at daycare. She has never been two days in a row because she just wants to sleep the day following.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Kalkid and 3 Goldens thanks for your comments in this thread... it spurred me to do some more research on kidney failure and diet, something I haven't done in about 4 years. After reading up much in NON-biased, NON-commercial websites (mostly vet oriented websites with no kibble to sell me) I've come around and learned some things (my ideas about kidney failure and diet have changed). I feel a little foolish in that nutrition is really what I consider one of my fortes and I messed up. You guys were right is some respects. There is soooo much I've learned online in the last two hours of reading and fact checking that I don't think I can put it all here... and it might not be appropriate anyway since this is a thread asking about kibble for healthy dogs but I do feel I need to clear up the areas in which I had (spread) misconceptions so no one runs off thinking my errors are current fact...

Protein does NOT affect the progress of kidney failure but a low-protein diet does make the dog undergoing kidney failure feel a lot better due to reduced uremic levels in the blood... however increased protein levels are advantageous in the very early stages of kidney damage and higher levels of protein can be fed along with phosphorus binders to limit the additional phosphorus contributed by the meat products. It has been determined that 85% of all dogs over 5-years of age already have some amount of kidney damage. Renal (kidney) failure is the number two or number three (depending upon which database research study is used) killer of all dogs. Management of phosphorus levels CAN indeed lengthen a dog's life with kidney failure, Wysong was incorrect in this but to their benefit this research is very recent and currently other studies are underway to verify results. Urine tests need to be included along with bloodwork to catch it in the very early stages where diet can then be used to prolong your pet's life. I think I pretty much covered any of my errors, but I would like to add this one last excerpt from one of the website I visited: 

"Feed a diet with a protein level which fits the dog's activity level. Couch potatoes on a high protein diet become obese leading to other problems.
Dietary protein levels do not appear to be involved in the progression of renal disease or play a role in the prevention of kidney failure. However, I prefer to err on the conservative side. I think protein levels in the 20-24 % range are probably safe. Of course other factors enter in such as the protein source, the bioavailability of the protein, fat content, carbohydrate levels, etc. must be considered as well.
When the BUN is greater than 75mg/dl and/or signs of uremia develop, moderate protein restriction is indicated to decrease the BUN and the clinical signs. Phosphorus restriction is also indicated at this time. This is most easily done with the available commercial kidney diets on the market."


Again thanks to all including Goldilocks for starting this thread, I have learned something today


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## kalkid (Feb 22, 2007)

Nice discussion Monomer. Unfortunately I consider nutrition to be one of my fortes as well. I think you make some great points and one of the best is regarding getting good information. While I love the internet it can also be a curse. I spend a lot of my work time trying to clarify something someone has read on the internet in a article. Many times the source tailors the information to what they want you to believe.

Actually it's nice to have a civil grown up conservation about a controversial issue which is the what dog food in general questions that always come up. The only reason I feed EVO is because I know Daisy is allergic to any grain in general. If she wasn't I would be feeding regular Innova, Canidae or you name it. I don't think good quality grains like oatmeal, brown rice and the others are bad and actually to the contrary I think you can argue it is a more balanced diet. Of course that's the thing with food you can argue all kinds of points. I love the point you make on weight. Especially considering the grain free foods tend to be real high calorie when compared on a cup per cup basis to other quality with grain foods. From what I've seen many are 50% or so higher in caloric content so you need to be careful about the quantities you feed. Again this is my opinion but I think being overweight or obese if you will is a far greater health risk than the differences in protein amounts, grain/grainless, and everything else in the various quality foods out there.

Either way I still think these are informative discussions to have.


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