# No champions til 3 or more generations back



## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I would think so, yes. Or if they are using an outside stud you are dealing with a BYB who deals with other BYB's LOL. Unless they have field/obedience/agility etc. titles then no. Do you mean titles or Champions??


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Do hobby breeders put titles on their dogs?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Kimm said:


> Do hobby breeders put titles on their dogs?


Absolutely-that is one of the hallmarks of a good hobby breeder. They also almost always keep a puppy out of each litter. This is one of my touchy points-so many people use hobby breeder to mean anyone who doesn't breed a lot of litters,when they are actually talking about BYB or pin money breeders.

A hobby is not something you make a living at, or use to get extra pin money for Christmas presents. It is something you enjoy doing, and you do it for the love the dogs, the breed and yes, the fun of it 

Now, not every dog may be titled but they work hard to title most of their dogs, whether it be in field, conformation, hunt tests or obedience.

From the GRCA booklet, Acquiring a Golden Retriever:

http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_find5.html

SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER. 
The very best choice. The serious and dedicated hobby breeder regards his/her dogs as even more than a hobby, although the true fancier does not expect to make a profit. When someone is involved in dogs for the enjoyment of each individual animal, for participating in any of the many aspects of dogsport, and for producing the finest animals possible, the results are SUPERIOR. The best breeders acknowledge responsibility for each and every puppy produced, and stand behind every dog they have bred.

Unequivocally, your choice should be from the ranks of the SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER. It is an interesting fact that poor quality puppies from pet shops and backyard breeders are often sold for the same price and sometimes even more than those purchased from the experienced hobby breeder. The question is: How does one recognize the responsible breeder? Presented below is a list of requirements the breeder should meet before you consider purchasing a puppy. Don't be afraid to confront the breeder with these requirements. It is your right, and you can rest assured that the dedicated breeder will respond positively and with pride.

The breeder should:

Belong to the Golden Retriever Club of America, a local Golden Retriever club, or an all-breed club. Ideally he/she should belong to all three; however, sometimes this is impossible. The reason for this requirement is that this sort of participation indicates depth of involvement. This breeder is exposed to other points of view, learns more about the breed and modern breeding practices, and is kept up to date on AKC rules and regulations. 

Be involved in showing his/her dogs in the breed ring, the obedience ring, in hunting tests/field trials, agility, tracking, or in a combination of any of these. The reason for this requirement is that it means that the breeder is not working in a vacuum. The breeder who does not participate has no idea how good his/her dogs really are, and is deprived of the opportunity to share information and ideas with others. Showing provides the competition which encourages breeders to produce better dogs. The breeder who competes wants to prove how good his/her dogs are and is putting his/her breeding program on the line. This breeder is not relying on just a pedigree to indicate quality. Even if you do not want a competition animal, you deserve a companion that is the end result of a carefully planned litter; a puppy which received the same care as a potential champion. The breeder who competes in organized activities is known by others and has a reputation to uphold. This breeder will be as careful and honest in selling you your pet puppy as in selling show stock. 

Be able to show you a clean environment; healthy, well-socialized puppies; and a dam with a good temperament. You should avoid: a) shy, whimpering, fearful puppies; b) puppies with dull coats, crusty or running eyes, signs of diarrhea, rashes or sores on their abdomens; c) signs of neglect, such as lack of water, pans of uneaten food, and dirty conditions; d) a breeder who will sell a puppy under seven weeks of age, as early separation from the dam and littermates can be very detrimental both psychologically and physically. 
Give you a period of time in which to allow you to have the puppy examined by a veterinarian to determine its state of health, so that both of you are assured as to the condition of the puppy at the time of sale. If a problem should arise, it can then be quickly resolved. 

Provide you with a record of the dates and types of vaccinations and de-worming done, feeding instructions, a 3-to 5-generation pedigree, and an AKC registration application to apply for registration of the puppy in your own name with the American Kennel Club (AKC). Sometimes the registration application is not available at the time you take your puppy home. If this is the case, have the breeder state on a dated, signed receipt of payment that the application will be sent to you as soon as possible. The registered names and AKC numbers of both parents, date of birth of the litter, and puppy's color and sex should be indicated. You can then contact AKC with complete information should there later be a problem with the papers. 

Give you written instructions on feeding, training and care. This booklet was designed in part for that purpose. There are other materials that are useful; some are listed in Appendix B. 

Be able to show you proof that both the sire and dam of the litter have had their hips X-rayed, and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and/or PennHIP; have had their elbows X-rayed and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or a board-certified veterinary radiologist: have had their hearts examined by a board-certified veterinary cardiologist; and have had their eyes examined by a board-certified veterinary ophthalmologist within the last 12-18 months. The breeder should also be willing to answer your questions about any other possible hereditary problems, including but not limited to seizures, hypothyroidism, and skin problems or allergies. 

Ask you what kind of dogs you have had in the past, and what happened to them; whether or not you have a fenced yard; and whether or not the dog will be allowed to be a house dog and a member of the family. Sincere breeders will be a bit hesitant to sell you a puppy until they know more about you, what you are looking for in a dog, and what lifestyle you have in mind for your dog. Having the best interest of the puppy at heart, reputable breeders will take great pains to place puppies properly the first time around. A returned puppy is a traumatic experience for all concerned, so the breeder who is always willing to accept a puppy back will try to make certain that a Golden is the breed for you. 

Be able to give you references: the names of people who have purchased puppies in the past, the names of other breeders, and the veterinarian who provides care for the breeder's dogs. 

Provide some sort of written contract and/or conditions of sale. Any warranty of quality or health of the dog, and any warranty against development of hereditary problems or show-ring disqualifications in an animal intended for showing or breeding, should be in writing. The warranty should be absolutely explicit and a signed copy should be provided to each party.

Both pedigree and registration papers are provided by reputable breeders at NO extra charge. The practice of charging extra for papers is forbidden by the AKC, and should be reported. This should not be confused with withholding papers until the dog has been spayed or neutered, which is how puppies not purchased for showing/breeding are sold by many reputable breeders. 

Make it clear that his/her responsibility continues long after you have taken your puppy home, in fact as long as the dog is alive. Many dedicated breeders will ask that the dog be returned to them, or placed with new owners who meet their approval, if ever for any reason you are unable to keep the dog. They'll cheerfully be available for advice whenever needed, and can ease your way over many rough spots.

If your breeder meets all of these requirements you are in good hands. If you find yourself with a negative response to any of these requirements, think twice and discuss the situation with someone else. DON'T be impulsive and DO ask questions


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm sorry, I probably wasn't clear in what I meant.
If you look at a dog's pedigree and you don't see things like:
FC or AFC or CH 
before the (ancestor) names until you go back to great-great grandparents of the dog, wouldn't this have happened because this dog is now a result of back yard breeding?
I was just wondering if pups of champions are sold, and maybe those pups aren't champions themselves, but are bred because they come from champions. Then in the next generation, again you have no champions, but they are bred because grandpa or grandma was a champion. Until, finally, no one is even thinking of attempting to create a champion anymore, they just are breeding dogs for pets.
I don't know if this is true, I was just wondering.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I think you were typing your very helpful answer as I was typing.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Ah...this is what I was indirectly referring to Linda.

"Now, not every dog may be titled but they work hard to title most of their dogs, whether it be in field, conformation, hunt tests or obedience."


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## bb'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

Has anyone ever heard of MarcysGoldens, she's in Florida?


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

lgnutah said:


> I'm sorry, I probably wasn't clear in what I meant.
> If you look at a dog's pedigree and you don't see things like:
> FC or AFC or CH
> before the (ancestor) names until you go back to great-great grandparents of the dog, wouldn't this have happened because this dog is now a result of back yard breeding?
> ...


 
To me it's a huge red flag if there's no titles on the parents and/or grandparents of a litter. In general most breeders will get a CH on their girls before finding them a husband - in North America anyway. And, most breeders will place puppies with limited registration, meaning the pups would have to meet certain requirements before they could be bred - usually a title as well as clearances.

Lana


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

lgnutah said:


> I was just wondering if pups of champions are sold, and maybe those pups aren't champions themselves, but are bred because they come from champions. Then in the next generation, again you have no champions, but they are bred because grandpa or grandma was a champion. Until, finally, no one is even thinking of attempting to create a champion anymore, they just are breeding dogs for pets.
> I don't know if this is true, I was just wondering.


I see a lot of this in advertising around here "Champion-lined" - meaning there was a CH 4-5 generations back. In general reputable hobby breeders (since you used that term) are very careful where puppies on full registration go - but they make mistakes in judgement sometimes - or...well, any number of things - and the offspring of an offspring gets into a BYB'er's home. So now you have a BYB puppy that has a CH grandparent - and those puppies are "CH lined". Titles aren't everything - but they say a lot IMO.

Erica


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

lgnutah said:


> Until, finally, no one is even thinking of attempting to create a champion anymore, they just are breeding dogs for pets.
> I don't know if this is true, I was just wondering.


Ding! Ding! Winner, winner! chicken dinner!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

MurphyTeller said:


> I see a lot of this in advertising around here "Champion-lined" - meaning there was a CH 4-5 generations back. In general reputable hobby breeders (since you used that term) are very careful where puppies on full registration go - but they make mistakes in judgement sometimes - or...well, any number of things - and the offspring of an offspring gets into a BYB'er's home. So now you have a BYB puppy that has a CH grandparent - and those puppies are "CH lined". Titles aren't everything - but they say a lot IMO.
> 
> Erica


 
Oh yeah "Champion Bloodlines". Love it. While "technically" it is true, it means NOTHING when the champions are SOOO many generations back. My "favorite" MI "breeder", She Who's Name Must Not Be Uttered", advertises that " Our lines are the best with ch. Goldrush, ch. Asterling's, ch. Gold Coast, ch. Birnam Woods, ch. Sandy Hills, and ch. Cummings as our foundation." At least one of those kennels requested that she cease and desist using their kennel name in her ads.


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