# Free play in puppy kindergarten?



## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

To the performance people out there - I'm curious to hear your opinions on this one!

I'm reading The Focused Puppy by Deb Jones and Judy Keller. I also just finished the Denise Fenzi online academy class Raising a Performance Puppy (taught by Deb Jones). Among other things, the emphasis was on reinforcing "offered focus" and getting my puppy to think I'm the best thing since sliced bread. The book mentioned that sometimes free, unstructured play during puppy classes can be a problem if your puppy learns that running around with other dogs is more fun than playing with you. 

The puppy kindergarten we did with Kea was more geared toward pet dog training, but I found another class locally that's taught by an agility instructor that may be starting up in June, that seems to be geared more toward performance dogs and that one incorporates a lot of shaping, toy play, clicker training and some crate time (I guess to simulate the environment at a trial). I don't know for sure if that class is happening, but I'm on the list, so fingers crossed. 

Our puppy comes home this weekend, and I have a laundry list of things to work on with him on our own here at home and at local public places after he has all of his shots (garden centers, downtown, home depot, etc.) but I also don't want to give up the potential benefits of him being socialized with other dogs during the regular puppy kindergarten if the second class ends up not happening. 

Please enlighten me on your puppy training class philosophy. I've got my heart set on competing in obedience with this puppy.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

The only time I allowed my puppy to go play with other puppies in class was when I was training her away from dogs. We never just let the dogs play with no training involved. However, this was not done on the first night. There is a lot of work on having the puppy come when called first. Then we would have the dogs interact and call them away from each other. Then we would let them interact again. This taught them that when they leave the dogs, it didn't mean they would be leaving them for good. When I go out in public with Luna I allow her to interact with other dogs sometimes, but if I want her to come, she will stop and come right to me. If you allow your puppy to play with other puppies and he/she doesn't come when you call him/her away, then you should not allow that freedom yet. It will teach the dog that it can ignore you and dogs are more interesting then you.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Admittedly limited experience here but my observation is that lots of serious competitors limit the exposure of their dogs to other dogs and people. They really do want that dog completely focused on them and don't want the pup involved in puppy play time or socialization with unfamiliar dogs.

With Zoe I stumbled into obedience after she had training and certification for therapy work. So she'd had as much socialization as possible. I came to think that it really was not that helpful with the obedience except that the group stays were easy with her. Keeping her focus for off leash work was a challenge.

You have to decide where your priorities are. For me having a dog that's well socialized to people and other dogs, a dog I can take out among strangers with no problems, is high on the list. For others making sure that dog is going to maintain focus in competition is high on the list.


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## Lucky Penny (Nov 13, 2011)

Socializing dogs to other dogs can be done without them playing together. Just simply having your dog meet a known friendly dog on a leash is enough.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The big thing is really give a lot of thought to the working floor and keeping that space "special" for focusing and playing with only you. This starts very early when they are puppies - especially if you put it in the context of building a foundation for what you want when this dog grows up. 

Doesn't mean your dog can't play with the other dogs elsewhere (home or outside - but very definitely and clearly on their "own time").


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I do not let my puppies play with other dogs in class or most other locations. I feel they have enough opportunities to play with my other dogs and very trusted friends dogs.

I do, however, socialize my puppies with other dogs & puppies. To me socialization is being introduced to all they are likely to encounter as they grow and mature and also learning dog etiquette. Part of what my dogs need to learn, since they will be in the agility & obedience rings, is that all dogs are not their play buddies or an opportunity to play macho - they can observe and be relaxed but not approach another dog unless given the okay.

I am always surprised at how so many people assume that because I do not want my dogs to greet every dog they may encounter my dogs must be aggressive or be deficient in some way  But honestly, I consider dogs to be pack animals and with the pack mentality comes the occasionally attack of 'outsiders', dog fights and/or the opportunity to decide they'd rather interact with a strangers dog than with me. They can play when on their time as Megora stated. But again I need to know & trust the playing dogs


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Not a fan of puppy play time in classes. I'll let my puppy play one on one with a dog that I know does well with other dogs, with frequent break up of play, but not a big free for all with a bunch of puppies gone wild. I also don't want my dogs to think that every time they see another dog, it is supposed to be a play opportunity. What I find to be better socialization for a puppy is to bring them to a dog show and just let them get used to being around a lot of dogs. It's important that dogs are used to other dogs being around, you don't want them getting fearful or over excited at the sight of another dog, but they don't have to actually interact with groups of dogs for that to happen.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Thanks everyone! I'm really hoping the second puppy class will be available in June. If it's not, I could do puppy kindergarten at the same place we took Kea, and assess the group play situation and possibly excuse myself and my puppy from that if need be. When we did it with Kea, the puppies would play and we would practice recalls, so that was ok. Kea already had a pretty good recall going into the class, but not all of the puppies did, and I just really felt that the class didn't give us a good foundation for performance. I was so new to all of it at the time I just didn't realize it. 

Our little guy will get plenty of supervised socialization with other friendly dogs, and I'm feeling like perhaps it would be better for that socialization to occur outside of puppy class unless I feel 100% comfortable with the class and the instructor. 



TheZ's said:


> With Zoe I stumbled into obedience after she had training and certification for therapy work. So she'd had as much socialization as possible. I came to think that it really was not that helpful with the obedience except that the group stays were easy with her. Keeping her focus for off leash work was a challenge.


This describes my experience with Kea to a T. We really struggle maintaining focus in obedience, and it's something I am hoping to fix with the new pup.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sometimes no class is better than a pet class if competition is your goal.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm not a fan of puppy socializing in class. We did it because that's how the class was structured. The very next class stressed not letting dogs interact on leash and no free play. It was the Star puppy class...pet geared. 

I agree with the thought that if your dog is allowed to play then it will want to play with every dog it sees. I prefer play to be structured in that it's at home or at friends.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Loisiana said:


> Sometimes no class is better than a pet class if competition is your goal.


Good point. Furthermore, I don't know that I can justify the money of a pet class if I'll be doing my own thing for most of it anyhow.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I too don't like it. If I take my dog to a park (not dog park) and there is another dog I know and trust, I allow play. Training facilities are just that. My pup is there to work and focus on me. Any playing is with me. 

When Gabby was a puppy I would take her to Quinn's agility classes. I would work with her on the sidelines playing focus games, and acclimate her to new places. If someone asked to pet her, I politely said no. She was there to focus on me, I did not want her to see going places as human or dog socialization free for alls. 

Gabby wasn't the nicest to other dogs. I have 3 others in my house and she wasn't necessarily nice to them either. However, as she's matured she has become social with humans (always liked people) and other dogs. However anywhere we go, she walks in confident and ready to work. Not wondering where her friends are. I would train a dog especially a Golden like this again. They have high social instincts teaching her I'm the one and only worked great. She is my best friend and partner. She gives me everything all the time. 

Ann


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I am not a performance person, but Kenzie's first puppy kindergarten was taught by someone who is a puppy raiser/trainer for seeing eye dogs-I'm tossing that in, since they need to be trained extremely well in obedience compared to a pet dog.
We did have puppy play time for about 10 min at the end of class. The playtime was supervised and the dogs were placed into groups with other dogs of the same size and personality. During playtime we would call our pups every few minutes, reward them and immediately let them go back to playtime. The dogs not playing were inside checking out agility equipment. My training facility has a little fenced in yard behind the building and that is where the playtime was held, vs in the actual training facility


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## ellisda1 (Jul 24, 2013)

In retrospect, I'd be very careful about how puppy playtime is implemented. I took Luna to a local well-regarded training club for puppy Kindergarten. I wasn't terribly impressed with the instructor, but I was a novice so I went along... Her idea for ending the class was a 15 minute free-for-all for all 8 puppies in the class. Nobody got injured, but Luna learned that ANY incoming dog was her new best friend, and assumed that jumping and wrestling was appropriate and expected. When we took our first real obedience classes, she was almost hopeless - every person and every dog is her long-lost best friend ever. It's been a long road (and, at 9 months, still a problem) trying to teach her impulse control. We have to make serious additional effort each day to teach calm sitting with strangers and dogs, and her sit and stand for examination will take a lot more work before I can trust it. She's very smart, very willing, very Golden, but that early learning is very hard to retrain. I've seen puppy Kindergarten at the Kennel Club we now attend, and puppy interactions are permitted only on leash, and only when supervised. The graduates are much readier for real obedience and agility courses than Luna was.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I have raised field golden for many years and we always take them to a obedience puppy class. I do not believe in nor do I allow my pups to 'puppy play'. I use obedience trainers who do not incorporate this into training. 

Doing your training at home be very careful to go slowly, all puppies go at their own pace. Do very short sessions, 2-3 times per day. Make them fun and always end by letting them do something that is easy for them. Lots of physical love for reward plus a treat....

Go slow and have fun, always end it before the dogs gets disinterested. 

Good Luck...enjoy you puppy time....as it lasts a very short time!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Ellisda - exactly. My feeling is you do not want your puppy to early on associate going to dog class to play with other dogs. The whole reason for dog class is working with you and actually learning to ignore all the other dogs. 

Socialization and playtime should happen definitely - but outside of class and anything that "looks" like class to your puppy.


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## Door (Apr 2, 2010)

Good thread. I see now I have been too careless about playtime. I see now that free for all can be harmful if you want to compete, which I do with my new puppy.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

An update on Harris and our puppy class situation: 

The performance foundation agility class I was hoping to do ended up being cancelled due to a lack of interest. We are doing puppy kindergarten at the same facility, but the instructor is very much on the same page as me in terms of free play. Actually, there is a fear-aggressive adolescent 6 month old HUGE lab puppy and a tiny and nervous terrier mix in the class, so free play is out of the question anyway with this particular mix of puppies (the other two puppies are Harris and an aussie who is a few weeks older than him). I have been really happy with the class so far. We've been doing a lot of shaping and exposing the puppies to new objects and we've also done settle/mat training. In between all of it, Harris and I are playing focus games or working on recalls on leash. It has been really great for both of us. Harris has also had an opportunity to meet and greet some adult dogs there on leash, including the instructor's border collies and a corgi. As a result of this, when we are out and about training in town, Harris really doesn't show interest in other dogs unless it's clear to him that we have ok'd him to say hi. Otherwise, he's getting treated every time he looks at me. 

We haven't really done a whole lot of it in class, but on our own, we're starting to work on left finish and are also entering the very nascent stages of heeling. 

This has been a helpful thread, thanks to all who contributed!


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## pb2b (Nov 8, 2013)

Wow. I really wish I found this thread before I started puppy class. We have had two classes so far and while the training part is useful, I find playtime to be chaotic and uncontrolled. I also think it allows for bullying and overly enthusiastic dogs to overwhelm dogs who don't think wrestling is the greatest thing ever. 

I do think it is a good opportunity for me to practice recall, which he rocked last night. He came to me every time I called. In fact, I was amazed last night at how much he leaned on me for guidance. (I wish he would do that when he's chewing the coffee table  ) I was told that by calling him away from the other dogs that I was doing a bad thing. Glad to know that's not true.

I'm also glad I'm not the only one who wants their dog to be able to ignore other dogs and focus on me. 

I am very interested in doing nose work with my guy. I think he will really like it. He is a little sniff machine. In fact, during our first puppy class, he spent the first play session sniffing every square inch of that place, every person, and then the dogs. So it's good to read this thread for my future classes.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

pb2b said:


> Wow. I really wish I found this thread before I started puppy class. We have had two classes so far and while the training part is useful, I find playtime to be chaotic and uncontrolled. I also think it allows for bullying and overly enthusiastic dogs to overwhelm dogs who don't think wrestling is the greatest thing ever.


This was my experience too, with Kea. It sounds like you're making the best of it by practicing recalls. Good luck with your little guy, it sounds like you two are a good team!


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## pb2b (Nov 8, 2013)

KeaColorado said:


> This was my experience too, with Kea. It sounds like you're making the best of it by practicing recalls. Good luck with your little guy, it sounds like you two are a good team!


Thanks! And good luck to you too.


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