# Collar questions



## Judi (Feb 26, 2007)

For Obedience classes, I have used a nylon "choke collar". Some one told me not to use it in a dog park and I listen.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I use a choke chain. 

Some training clubs are banning the choke chain because it is dangerous in the wrong hands. They either want you to use the flat collar, or go to a prong instead. 

As far as I know - the options in the ring are either flat collars or choke chains. Prongs are not permitted.

I don't 'correct' a lot, so it doesn't really matter whether I use a choke chain or a flat collar. But I like using something DIFFERENT than his usual walking and playing collar when we are working. And it doesn't make sense training with a collar I have to wean off before entering the ring.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Most of my training is done on a buckle collar. I do teach heeling on a prong. I don't personally use a choke chain but AKC does allow them in competition, it's just up to each club what they allow.


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## Sawyer4me (Jul 25, 2009)

I kind of thought that prong collars were not allowed in the obedience ring. Thanks for the insight it didn't even occur to me that I would have to wean off a pronged collar if I chose that. My choices are a martingale, pronged collar, flat leather collar and some sort of head gear? I really would prefer not to use a pronged collar, but am wondering how effective a martingale really would be.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sawyer4me said:


> I kind of thought that prong collars were not allowed in the obedience ring. Thanks for the insight it didn't even occur to me that I would have to wean off a pronged collar if I chose that. My choices are a martingale, pronged collar, flat leather collar and some sort of head gear? I really would prefer not to use a pronged collar, but am wondering how effective a martingale really would be.


Keep in mind that you'd have to wean off of all of those except the flat collar... 

The pronged collar does work wonders if you are fixing short term problems. Um, I recently used it to get my guy over some fear behavior (he was connecting walks with fireworks/thunderstorms and would balk at going too far out away from the house). Two weeks of me carrying the prong and clipping it on at any signs of balking or pulling back, and he's back to walking on a loose flat collar. 

I think it's useful learning how to use it in the class setting. But keep in mind you will have to wean off of it, so you shouldn't be solely training with it or any of the other collars you can't take into the ring.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've never had to "wean" a dog off of a prong collar. Once the dog really understands heeling I haven't found it to matter what collar they have on. Of course I should never say never, especially with the dog I'm now training...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I work 100% on a loose flat buckle collar. Don't like prongs, don't like chokes. I'd use a martingale if I were retraining somebody else's dog who knew how to slip a collar.


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## BeckyB (Jan 21, 2008)

I use a flat buckle collar, I don`t like choke chains.
I would use a prong if i thought i needed it but i do know lots of people
that train in a prong and show in a flat collar and get 197+ scores and
they don`t wean there dog off the prong before showing in a flat collar.
I would think if you needed to do that ,your dogs not ready for the ring.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> they don`t wean there dog off the prong before showing in a flat collar.
> I would think if you needed to do that ,your dogs not ready for the ring.


*nods* But how would you know if you are ready for the ring if you always train with a prong collar? That's something I was concerned about last year when I was pushed to train with the prong rather than just a flat... maybe because I see it the same way as chaps w/horseback riding. 

When I was a kiddo, I used to take lessons with chaps on all the time because it was easier that way. There was no challenge and I looked good in class because I had the best seat of anyone. 

Except when the time came when I was getting ready to show and could not wear chaps over my jodphurs. Suddenly I went from having the best seat to having the WORST seat. 

If you want to show, it's better not to get used to using stuff that can't go into the ring. 

As I said - I can get a heel with my golden whatever he's wearing or even if he's nekkid. He is trained enough that I do not need to correct with anything beyond my voice. The only reason why I'm using the choke chain though is it sits loose around my guy's neck and the jingle of it when I pull it out is my first cue to him that he is to behave himself and not clown around like I let him do with the buckle collar. 

That said, if choke chains are banned from the show ring, I would simply go out and buy a special collar (maybe a rolled leather collar) that looks and feels differently to my dog.


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## Golden123 (Dec 6, 2009)

> 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
> The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
> Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
> Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.


There was a study done in Germany about prong vs choke. This is one reason why I refuse to use a choke collar. I've been using the regular flat buckle collar.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Golden123 said:


> There was a study done in Germany about prong vs choke. This is one reason why I refuse to use a choke collar. I've been using the regular flat buckle collar.


I don't mean to get into an argument about choke chains vs buckle collars, especially since I do feel that improper use of training collars result in injury to the dog. 

But... 

I used a choke chain to train all four goldens in our family, and the narrow-headed collie was trained/walked on a slip collar (we now use a rolled leather collar with him because we never felt comfortable using a TRAINING collar with a dog who is not in training). 

I never heard of throat injuries as have recently come out, although our instructor 20+ years ago emphasized the proper use of training collars way back in puppy class and would not let people put choke chains on until they were getting into the novice obedience classes. 

I firmly believe that the injuries as reported happen because of inappropriate use of the choke chains. As I said in another thread, I've seen people walking their dogs on choke chains - and their neck-strong dogs are dragging them along the road. One neighbor's lab actually broke the choke chain she was pulling that hard. 

The above is why I'm perfectly happy about training clubs banning the use of choke chains. I just wish they would do the same with prongs, simply because in the wrong hands they are even more dangerous than choke chains. <- Our previous instructor would only put a prong collar on bull-headed dogs, and even then she would not let hard-handed people use them.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> The above is why I'm perfectly happy about training clubs banning the use of choke chains. I just wish they would do the same with prongs, simply because in the wrong hands they are even more dangerous than choke chains.


And I don't like that theory.....because some will misuse it nobody here gets to use one? I would rather a club show those who want to use one the proper way to train with it than banning it completely for everyone.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden123 said:


> There was a study done in Germany about prong vs choke. This is one reason why I refuse to use a choke collar. I've been using the regular flat buckle collar.


Can you cite this study?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> And I don't like that theory.....because some will misuse it nobody here gets to use one? I would rather a club show those who want to use one the proper way to train with it than banning it completely for everyone.


True...but I guess I'm thinking about what happens when the clubs introduce and suggest the use of training collars in the household obedience classes. 

I'm worried that the prong is becoming as casual a collar as the choke chain. And in reality, these training collars _should not_ be used by everyone. Especially not people who are only going to attend 5-7 distraction filled household obedience classes. That is not enough time for people to learn how to properly use a potentially harsh collar. And a lot of the time there are people attending these classes who are looking for a quick fix. These people are not going to look at the prong or choke chain as a temporary training aid. They are looking for something to do all the training for them, and they don't always pay attention when an instructor explains how to properly correct using either collar. 

Those training collars should be used by those people who actually need them and are willing to learn how to use them properly. And I'd prefer it if people first learn how to teach a very basic controlled walk and attention/focus to their dog on a buckle collar. Because hopefully, their dogs are going to enjoy a lifetime of walks with a loose and light buckle collar around their necks.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Golden123 said:


> There was a study done in Germany about prong vs choke. This is one reason why I refuse to use a choke collar. I've been using the regular flat buckle collar.


Honestly, I feel like a dog that pulls on a flat collar is no less likely to be injured than one that pulls on a choke or prong. In fact, I think dogs that pull can and will pull harder on a flat than they will on a choke or prong. IF, however, the dog walks loosely on either what's wrong with that? If a dog will pull on a flat but not a prong there is greater injury going to happen on the flat than the prong, IMO.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Honestly, I feel like a dog that pulls on a flat collar is no less likely to be injured than one that pulls on a choke or prong. In fact, I think dogs that pull can and will pull harder on a flat than they will on a choke or prong. IF, however, the dog walks loosely on either what's wrong with that? If a dog will pull on a flat but not a prong there is greater injury going to happen on the flat than the prong, IMO.


Though I don't like or use prongs, you're totally right. A flat buckle collar is not a "safe" collar when it comes to pulling. A dog can lunge and throttle himself on a buckle collar.

If you allow a dog to pull on a choke, though, it's a thinner, harder thing, and I think the potential is slightly higher for a serious injury.

The answer to all of this is _training_. A headstrong dog won't necessarily be brought to the proverbial heel by any piece of a equipment. There needs to be something rewarding and habitual about polite leash manners and precise heeling if it's really going to stick.


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## BeckyB (Jan 21, 2008)

Megora said:


> *nods* But how would you know if you are ready for the ring if you always train with a prong collar? That's something I was concerned about last year when I was pushed to train with the prong rather than just a flat... maybe because I see it the same way as chaps w/horseback riding.
> 
> By the time your dog is ready to go in the ring, the prong is there in training incase you need it but will be rarely used,same as a buckle collar.
> I train novice through utility before i start showing like most of my friends, so by the time i enter the ring my dog has many many miles of healing under his belt. Heeling with attention will become a habit.
> ...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

BeckyB said:


> As Connie Cleveland says, some dogs only need a $2 correction but some need a $20 correction.
> Don`t give a 2$ correction to a $20 dollar dog or a $20 correction to a $2 dog.
> It really depends on the dog, The 2 dogs i`m training now only need a $2 correction..... so they are in flat collars
> If i had a dog that needed a $20 correction, i would use a prong.
> You can`t give a $20 correction with a flat collar, That`s like giving them a $2 ticket....when they got plenty of money.


I love Connie, she is just such a common sense trainer. I'm currently training my first $20 dog, it's quite an experience.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> Though I don't like or use prongs, you're totally right. A flat buckle collar is not a "safe" collar when it comes to pulling. A dog can lunge and throttle himself on a buckle collar.
> 
> If you allow a dog to pull on a choke, though, it's a thinner, harder thing, and I think the potential is slightly higher for a serious injury.
> .


Yes, I could see where the choke could be more damaging--maybe. It also goes back to how you are using it though. I choke snugged up under the chin and you will have control of a big powerful dog if you keep it there and is quite useful when dealing with untrained dogs. Now, if the choke lies at the base of the neck and you have a pulling dog--not good!



tippykayak said:


> The answer to all of this is _training_. A headstrong dog won't necessarily be brought to the proverbial heel by any piece of a equipment. There needs to be something rewarding and habitual about polite leash manners and precise heeling if it's really going to stick.


Hmmm, I would have to disagree about that. I think many people are quite successful at teaching a dog to heel by the traditional choke collar pop. It may not be how you or I would want to train, but people can do it and have so for ages (ok, but I guess praise can be rewarding which is usually given).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

BeckyB said:


> By the time your dog is ready to go in the ring, the prong is there in training incase you need it but will be rarely used,same as a buckle collar.
> I train novice through utility before i start showing like most of my friends, so by the time i enter the ring my dog has many many miles of healing under his belt. Heeling with attention will become a habit.


*nods* Last year I trained under somebody who wanted us to focus on not just teaching a heel that would win in novice, but also a heel that would win in utility. That means _rapid_ sits, fixed attention, immediate movements/perfect heel position throughout. 

She felt that my $2 correction dog (he was doing a quality heel with solid though not exactly instant snap sits way back in puppy class) needed better training and $20 corrections from me so that he was as instant/solid/perfect as he could be when we started showing. 

Anyway she wasn't happy about my buckle collar and pushed me to put the prong on. Long story short, I didn't like the way my golden kept shaking his head about the prong digging into his scalp so I switched over to the choke chain instead. Besides I knew how to train with the chain. :

To the point though - I think if you are switching over to a buckle collar in classes and practice, then I have no argument with that. But I see a lot of people going to practice classes week after week with a prong collar on their dog, even well past the point where the dog knows his heel and they are supposedly in polishing mode. If they aren't practicing without the prong, then how do they know their dog will be fine without it in shows?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> To the point though - I think if you are switching over to a buckle collar in classes and practice, then I have no argument with that. But I see a lot of people going to practice classes week after week with a prong collar on their dog, even well past the point where the dog knows his heel and they are supposedly in polishing mode. If they aren't practicing without the prong, then how do they know their dog will be fine without it in shows?


There are a lot of people that always train with the prong except at trials, just like most field people always train with an ecollar except at trials and tests. In both cases the thought is that even if it is very likely they won't need to use it, they want it on the dog just in case. Because if they do need it but it's not there to use, the dog is more likely to become collar-wise.


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## Golden123 (Dec 6, 2009)

http://www.labadoption.org/2711/education/the-collars-role Heres some more info on collars.


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## BeckyB (Jan 21, 2008)

I`ve never had to use a prong but the people i know who do go to lots of matches and do lots of proofing before entering a trial and train in lots of different locations.
What makes your dog preform?
The reward? Avoid correction? You should not enter a trial until it becomes the dogs habit. You cant correct in the ring anyway. 

Ive noticed a lot of people, at least around here, don`t take advantage of matches to train there dog but let the dog make mistakes and not correct to get a ribbon. 
I always go exhibition only, even at sanctioned matches and correct my dog.
Matches are great training opportunities 


Yes, I LOVE Connie Cleveland as well, Her seminars are awesome!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Ive noticed a lot of people, at least around here, don`t take advantage of matches to train there dog but let the dog make mistakes and not correct to get a ribbon.
> I always go exhibition only, even at sanctioned matches and correct my dog.
> Matches are great training opportunities


I love fun matches<: 

I've been doing a lot of them this summer and it actually has helped with the training. Different people see different things so I've picked up a lot of ideas from various 'judges'. 

But mainly, I have my bad trainer habits that I unconsciously start to do when I'm nervous. Stupid things like putting my golden into a stand stay and running out before the judge gives the command! Or anticipating about turns or changes of pace before getting the command. Or going out in front and backing away instead of walking six feet away before turning around! Or heeling with crooked shoulders. And who knows what I'll do in the next round of matches this month. 

I don't do any of the above in class. I think I just go on automatic in a 'show' setting and that's when I do flaky stuff left and right. :doh:

With my previous dog I got two first places and a third place for our novice legs. But that was Novice A. I imagine the A judges are a lot more lenient than the B judges. So polishing and doing fun matches is high on my agenda right now.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

GoldenSail said:


> Hmmm, I would have to disagree about that. I think many people are quite successful at teaching a dog to heel by the traditional choke collar pop. It may not be how you or I would want to train, but people can do it and have so for ages (ok, but I guess praise can be rewarding which is usually given).


I didn't say that you couldn't teach a precise heel with corrections and a choke but rather that durable behaviors require some aspect of reward. Avoiding punishment alone will not teach a durable, precise habit.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't know....not that I condone training that way, but I think there are a lot of dogs out there that perform certain behaviors all their lives simply to avoid punishment.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I don't know....not that I condone training that way, but I think there are a lot of dogs out there that perform certain behaviors all their lives simply to avoid punishment.


Sure, but when you remove the punishment, the behavior tends to degrade much more quickly than a behavior that has been reinforced with a reward.

If a dog learns not to pull solely because it hurts when he pulls, he probably won't pull when you change out to a painless collar. However, if you keep using that standard collar, his behavior is more likely to degrade than if you found a way to reward not pulling, even in combination with the painful collar.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I don't know....not that I condone training that way, but I think there are a lot of dogs out there that perform certain behaviors all their lives simply to avoid punishment.


And in some cases it is necessary... 

Not so much with show obedience training, but with border training if you either have invisible fencing or are going without. 

*laughs* I feel like I've said this before = and I probably did on another thread, but sometimes with a young and enthusiastic dog, a passing car or dog across the street are more interesting than the food in your hand. 

I would never put a shock collar on my dog. Ever. But I did do all of border training. 

Border training to work has to be a punishing pop on the leash if the dog on a loose lead strays beyond the border. The positive training (treats, praise, party) follows when the dog walks along the border on a very loose lead and makes no attempt to cross the line.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Megora said:


> Border training to work has to be a punishing pop on the leash if the dog on a loose lead strays beyond the border. The positive training (treats, praise, party) follows when the dog walks along the border on a very loose lead and makes no attempt to cross the line.


I wonder if this is how my neighbors trained their dogs. They have no invisible fence, but often leave the front gate open and their dogs never ever come out even though they could. Not even when I walk by with Scout.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Sawyer4me said:


> I kind of thought that prong collars were not allowed in the obedience ring. Thanks for the insight it didn't even occur to me that I would have to wean off a pronged collar if I chose that. My choices are a martingale, pronged collar, flat leather collar and some sort of head gear? I really would prefer not to use a pronged collar, but am wondering how effective a martingale really would be.


Aren't martingales allowed in the AKC ring?


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