# English Golden



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

There's not enough information on their website to tell if they are doing all necessary clearances, etc.

If you are interested in the English style golden, try this website 

http://starcrowned.com/egnatest/Public/breeders.aspx

and of course, make sure that hips are cleared through OFA, Penn Hip (requires low numbers, they don't actually give a pass or fail) OVC or BVA; elbows through OVC or OFA, maybe BVA; eyes cleared every year by a veterinary opthamologist and heart cleared at least once by a veterinary cardiologist.

Many "English" breeders are now actually importing their dogs from Eastern Europe. Not necessarily bad, but a breeder on one of the breed lists I am on, noted that she had contacted a well-known European breeder to inquire about purchasing a puppy. She was quite taken aback to find that they did not do clearances.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm so sorry for your loss. She definitely had a long life.

Honestly, the marketing of "English goldens" is mostly just a sales tactic for the most part and a lot of breeders use it as a way to charge more for a puppy. It is possible to get a light colored (even cream) golden from a responsible breeder, but I personally would avoid the ones who advertise them as English cream goldens and go with a breeder who has a litter of light puppies instead. Good luck in your search!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Those are a lot prettier than most UK style dogs IMO- not horribly overdone, not too overly stocky, not huge houndy heads. They have nice, full coats too. You'd have to check for clearances, though.


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## GoldenFan (Dec 14, 2009)

yep, thats what i thought too...its the only website i've stumbled upon so far where i like the whole package of both parents as opposed to just maybe one...health questions are my next step...thanks


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## GoldenFan (Dec 14, 2009)

wow, good to know...thanks for the info...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Maybe someone with more knowledge than I have can answer this...
A couple of the very light goldens that I board here at the pet hotel have much darker fur around their eyes and above their eyes. They have almost a raccoon look. I was told that's not uncommon when breeders try to breed specifically for a light color. Supposedly it even has a name. It doesn't show up until the puppy is several months old.
Anyone familiar with what I'm talking about???


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> There's not enough information on their website to tell if they are doing all necessary clearances, etc.
> 
> If you are interested in the English style golden, try this website
> 
> ...


Insist on seeing clearances for hips/elbows, cardiac and eyes. Their site links to AKC and OFA, but there are very few Starr dogs on the OFA database, and fewer with complete clarances. There is one listed with mild dysplasia.

I found the photo of the awards won by one of their dogs interesting. They appear to be 4H ribbons.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Hi Golden Fan and welcome to the GRF :wavey:
I am not familiar with Starr Goldens and as others have stated you will need to verify clearances, don't take anyone's word see the paper. Their website leaves a lot of questions but that does not have to mean there is a problem. There was at least one member of the GRF that got a pup from them. I sent them an email and asked them to share their experience with you here. Hopefully they will be of some help to you.
Where ever you go to get your pup I wish you the best of luck!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Interesting-I did find this on k9data.com One of their stud dogs has had his record locked by the administrators. It looks as though someone entered in OFA clearances that were removed. The only OFA clearance on this dog is a cardiac clearance done by a practitioner, not a cardiologist:

http://www.k9data.com/changehistory.asp?ID=209683

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1213728#animal


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Starr's main sire - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=209683 - Goldbrior Victory Dash - has only a cardiac clearance listed with OFA and it was done by a regular vet, not a cardiologist and no eye clearances listed with CERF.

Dam(s):
Rising Starr Of The Morning Valley (Remi) - http://k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=264086 - also has only a cardiac clearances with OFA done by a regular vet. No CERF clearance listed.

That is all the information I could find - the website is VERY light on details about the dogs. That can sometimes be a warning sign. I believe that the OFA's he talks of on his site are preliminaries, not final certifications.

If you look on k9data, there are several Starr dogs that have had their information changed or even deleted by John Stevenson. Two of his dogs have had their records locked by admin so changes can no longer be made by anyone but administrators.

As Tahnee said, your best bet is http://www.starcrowned.com/egnatest/default.aspx

**okay, several of you wrote the same things I did while I was looking all this up  **


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## Bradh2238 (Apr 5, 2009)

I have two dogs from Starr. I've met the family, been out to their house, seen all the dogs, etc. Call John (owner) and he will answer any questions you want about the health of the dogs. Mine both had their certs. I lost some of my paperwork and so I had my vet call the owner and she said she was very impressed with everything he had done and asked if she could forward his information to some other patients that were looking for a new Golden. I can answer any questions you have. Both my dogs have great temperments (at least when alone). They are extremely well behaved when alone, but need some monitoring went left together. They are both still puppies (12 weeks and 10 1/2 months). First one (Bentley) potty trained in two weeks, Second one (Bristol) is not quite so dedicated (although oddly I think she is a little smarter). The only thing I would change is that if I ever get another puppy, hold off on winter time. Potty training in the freezing cold and snow is difficult. Either you freeze or the dogs just want to play in the snow. Puppies are A LOT of work! (unless you get one like Bentley).


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Bradh2238 said:


> I have two dogs from Starr. I've met the family, been out to their house, seen all the dogs, etc. Call John (owner) and he will answer any questions you want about the health of the dogs. Mine both had their certs. .


Just curious, do you remember if the certs you saw on plain white paper or on paper with a colored background? Preliminary Hip & Elbow look like this: http://offa.org/samplecerts.html#prelimrpt while the final permanent certifications look like this:http://offa.org/samplecerts.html#hiprpt & http://offa.org/samplecerts.html#elrpt

The difference is that Prelim reports are reviewed by ONE radiologist, where the final ones are done by 3 separate radiologists: "Radiographs of animals 24 months of age or older are independently evaluated by three randomly selected, board-certified veterinary radiologists from a pool of 20 to 25 consulting radiologists throughout the USA in private practice and academia. Each radiologist evaluates the animal's hip status considering the breed, sex, and age." -- from the OFA website.

If his dogs had permanent final certifications for hips/elbows, they would be recorded with OFA. Since they are not, they are most likely only prelims, which begs the question, why didn't he get the final clearances?


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Those are a lot prettier than most UK style dogs IMO- not horribly overdone, not too overly stocky, not huge houndy heads. They have nice, full coats too. You'd have to check for clearances, though.


Could you clarify whether you mean dogs in the UK or those in the US? If you mean in the UK then I would beg to differ, after all, I am surrounded by UK Goldens every day and I do not find them ugly in any way... very beautiful in fact!

And what does a huge houndy head look like?

Sorry, I'll stop there


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I've just checked out their site and would only comment on this...

I can't see the point in stating that their dogs have many Champions in their pedigrees if they don't take the time to publish the pedigrees themselves. I just find that a little odd. 

They all look healthy though, although I don't see any evidence that they have shown their dogs at all, and I would be a little dubious about any kennel which just uses their own dog as stud. Is that common practice in the US/Canada?

I agree with what has been said before about health clearances, you can never be too careful. And always check this out BEFORE you go visit any pups... just too hard to walk away!!!!!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

*There is "English" and then there is English....*

This is going to be long, but I'll chime in on this one as I have dogs of primarily English background. Those of us who focus on this style as the cornerstone of our breeding for ourselves (as opposed to having "niche-marketable" puppies to sell) do not do so because of the colour. Given our connection to the UK as a member of the Commonwealth, in Canada these bloodlines have been anything but rare as some of our leading kennels focus on this style. That said, when Oprah bought her pale puppies from that deplorable excuse for a kennel we knew that the trend was going to explode, and the people capitalizing on it were not going to be focus on breeding good GOLDENS. Quite frankly, if the primary selection criteria appears to be for a so-pale-as-to-appear-white coat there is a problem. Saying "our stud dog has the palest coat we have ever seen!" or "Her bloodlines are extremely rare in North America" is a tip off. 

*Well bred* dogs of English/European origin or ancestry do not have massive clunky heads or droopy eyes (because it is incorrect in the UK standard as well!), and in fact can do quite well under breeder judges even in the AKC breed ring, as they often have great strength to offer in terms of improving depth of stop, or return of upper arm for instance. My own boy has placed, owner-handled in the Open class under judges like Michael Faulkner, Don Sturz and Janice Provenzano for example. Many highly successful US kennels have used UK bred dogs, or imported them for themselves for these reasons. I also prefer the less profusely feathered coat that is typical as I find it easier to maintain in dogs that I hunt with. I also love the easy-going and biddable temperament, combined with a love of birds (my friend with an FTCH black lab prefers to shoot over my boy when we go pheasant hunting!) For me, a *good* English style dog more closely matches what I envision when reading the standard.

That said, what I am talking about is a well-bred English style golden. And in this respect, many of the breeders using primarily English lines who view the complete package are quite open to using a quality American line dog if it has something they need in order to make an improvement. Long-term dedicated breeders of the English style have spent years building relationships with leading breeders in the UK and on the continent (often including trips to Crufts and Windsor and the like), and quite often the people who cannot get dogs from these bloodlines cannot for a reason! The influx of Eastern European dogs with poor histories of clearances behind them, and often of poor conformation quality as well, are not brought in by the dedicated fanciers of this style. People without the reputations and years of work into this buy their dogs where those connections do not matter and the cash gets the dog. So a claim of buying a dog from a top-winning European kennel or a leading judge really isn't worth its salt unless backed up by being open about what those "big wins" are or who that judge is--otherwise you can claim just about anything you want because there is no way for anyone to check it out!!

So, what is the lesson? Buyer beware if you are seeking this style specifically. Do not make colour your primary selection factor (my girl's sire is of completely English breeding and both he and his sire are mid to dark gold!) Do your homework--does it seem like a white-puppy producing operation with little attention to proving dogs in the conformation, obedience or hunt test venues? Or are they competing with and proving their dogs before breeding them? Are full names of their dogs readily available on their website so that you can check them out in k9data and OFA? Are they breeding quite young dogs? This is a concern as these bloodlines can be quite slow maturing, so even at 2 you don't always know what you have yet. The English Goldens site given earlier is a good place to start but you will still have to do your homework--doing a Google search for "English Goldens" or especially "English Creams" is the worst way to start as that is a search key that the profit-minded use to get traffic to their sites. If they talk about English Goldens as if they were a separate breed that is another red flag. They are Goldens. Period. And a good one is a good one.

And as for the original inquiry--with some digging, I determined that their stud dog Storm is Goldbriors Victory Dash--born in 2005 according to the OFA record, and first litter that they had by him born in 2006--kind of tells the tale. Only one clearance listed in OFA and that is a heart clearance done by a practitioner rather than a cardiologist. He has also been bred to a girl who comes down from an establishment with a not so good rep up here, given what I found in k9data.

(PS I too was writing away when folks dug up some of the same info I did!)


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## Bradh2238 (Apr 5, 2009)

I have no idea what color the paper was. I have spoken to some other owners, who knew other owners as well, etc... and I don't know of any of their dogs ever having health problems. 

I assure you they are not a factory. They care a lot about each of their dogs, enjoy talking about the personalities of each dog, and they won't give one to anyone that can write the check. If they aren't comfortable with the potential owner they won't let them have a puppy. 

As for the "palest coat we've ever seen" comment, I wouldn't read to deep into that. They aren't buying dogs to breed just because the color is so light. Its definitely a factor, but as long as they are making sure their dogs come from good breeders/homes, I don't think its relevant. I have the best dog in the world (or at least that I've ever had or seen) and he just happens to be a light cream (because thats what my wife wanted). Some people like cream, some golden, some red, at the end of the day its still just a Golden. My last dog was a rescue (pre-wife) and he was awesome (Red Golden incidentally). 

Best of luck finding what you want. As for the whole breeder selection process, there are lots of good ones out there. They may not have fancy websites, they may not post all their clearances, but that doesn't mean they are shady. Sometimes its just means they aren't as sophisticated and you need to make a few phone calls and have a conversation.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Glad that you have a dog that you love and who has been healthy and happy. 

But the point is that transparency with your clearance information, and following established protocols is part of being a responsible breeder. One does not need to be a "puppy factory" to not clear the bar. Someone can be well-meaning and love their dogs but still not do what they should. If orthopaedic clearances are done at the required age there is no need for the breeder to post them. If they are done and they have passed they are posted to OFA automatically.

So, breeding dogs who are not old enough to have permanent clearances is a problem. The male Storm was born in May 2005, and his pups out of Maddy Ann Starr were born in August 2006. He was just over a year old when they were sired! The bitch (who was born in 2002) then had another litter by him in May 2007. She had previously had litters by a dog named Caslands Liberty Starr(born July 2002) in Sept. 2003, Nov 2004, June 2005, and Jan 2006. So she has had 6 litters and started before she was 2 years old, which again is before she was old enough for final clearances! Nuff said! 

Again, glad you love your pups and are happy with them, just not going to tell someone else that they are a good choice.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't care for Goldens with huge, boxy heads, too much lip/flews, the haw showing on the eye, huge bone (if it weighs more than 75 pounds for a male or 65 for a female in good condition, then it's not my style for sure). I don't care for loose skin on the neck, either. I have seen UK Goldens that are gorgeous. My favorite was one Ann Woodcock was showing, a top winning female. That's the type of UK Golden I like. I did live there for a couple years  I saw many nice dogs. I also some some massive, waddling dogs that my dogs could run and swim circles around. That said, there are plenty of US type dogs that I think are incorrect as well. I also believe cream is incorrect for this breed, but it is pretty, provided the dog has jet black pigment- I think that's gorgeous.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Diesel on this website http://www.akcdoublebgoldens.com/ if you scroll down a bit, is a prime example of what I think is, well- not my cup of tea.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

Where are you located? I am sure there are a lot of breeders on here that would know of reputable breeds of this style of golden in your neck of the woods.

As far as there being one style of golden in the UK I would not be quick to categorize them as all being the same. Just as it is in the US you will find many styles of goldens being bred in the UK as well as any country. A quality golden can be found just about anywhere, just because it is not of ones taste does not mean it is not a good example of the breed.

Good luck in your search and let us know if we can help.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Diesel on this website http://www.akcdoublebgoldens.com/ if you scroll down a bit, is a prime example of what I think is, well- not my cup of tea.


I'm not an expert by any means, but that doesn't even LOOK like a golden. :uhoh:


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

nixietink said:


> I'm not an expert by any means, but that doesn't even LOOK like a golden. :uhoh:


I have to say I agree, his legs are too short also!! I think the biggest problem I've seen in the UK (mostly among pet owners) is that their GR's become grossly overweight. When I see a really fat dog, I feel very sad as they must be so unhealthy!! Since I've been spending much more time in the show rings, I now realise what a "proper" weight should be, and now strive to make sure my dogs do not become overweight.

People really don't seem to know what their dog should look/feel like, which for me is the biggest problem. You then have a big boned dog which quickly becomes sedentary, setting up a vicious circle.

This would be my best advice for anyone getting a chunky GR pup, is to always watch the weight, you will have a much healthier/more active dog as a result. So people are killing their dogs with "kindness"....


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## twinny41 (Feb 13, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Diesel on this website http://www.akcdoublebgoldens.com/ if you scroll down a bit, is a prime example of what I think is, well- not my cup of tea.


 I think those dogs are rather nice and would be happy to own one! Yes, that Diesel does look rather stocky, Lol. I too prefer smaller heads but Hey, I think it's personal preference. If you are going to show your dogs then obviously go for the correct standard. However, if for a pet, companion and friend go for the health clearances. Doesn't really matter what they look like does it? They will hopefully be loved anyway. It's like children and I am often heard to say about what I perceive as an ugly dog 
- " Only a Mother could love it" and I am sure if it were mine I would think it was the best dog in the Universe!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Oh yeah, should Diesel turn up in a shelter, I'd be the first one to want to save him, and if I had room, I'd keep him and think he was gorgeous. There is a big difference between what I think is a correct Golden technically, and loving all Goldens in general (which I do!). And, there are some on that page I think are nice Goldens


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

twinny41 said:


> I think those dogs are rather nice and would be happy to own one! Yes, that Diesel does look rather stocky, Lol. I too prefer smaller heads but Hey, I think it's personal preference. If you are going to show your dogs then obviously go for the correct standard. However, if for a pet, companion and friend go for the health clearances. Doesn't really matter what they look like does it? They will hopefully be loved anyway. It's like children and I am often heard to say about what I perceive as an ugly dog
> - " Only a Mother could love it" and I am sure if it were mine I would think it was the best dog in the Universe!


You bring up a point that I think is the crux of most debates when people research purchasing a golden retriever; purchasing a golden bred to the standard (with clearances) vs. purchasing a golden that is not bred to the standard (with clearances). 

All in all, does someone wind up paying the same amount of money in the beginning? We don't have a poll up, but I would have to say that the price of the puppy between two such breeders would be very close--because the clearances on both the sire and dam are expensive, and part of that cost, if not a good portion of it, is reflected in the price of the puppy. 

I've always wondered what correlation there is, if any, to looking at the price of a golden retriever puppy when you look at the 1. clearances of the sire and dam, 2. how closely the sire and dam adhere to the standard (as exemplified by CH titles or performance/working titles) and 3. cost. IMHO, if you're going to pay in the $1000-$2000 range for a pup, then why not want goal #1 and #2 for your purchase? 

If you're just happy with goal #1, and the price is $500/$600, then all right, I can see where you've settled for just health background checks, but I suspect that most of the breeders do not sell their pups that inexpensively because of what the market will demand (and different "twists" on golden retriever marketing--"rare" "white" English "cremes," "healthier" European stock, etc. IMHO, people are overpaying for their purchase, but, hey, it's market forces at work, and breeders are charging what the market will support.


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

Not 100% on topic, but I been studying Golden breed lines in the uk for a few years and been wayching the show ring closelty for the last year, and I have to say I realy don't like how stocky the Uk goldens are going, there starting to look alot like labradors in head shape.

Looking at the US bred UK stile most look realy nice to the type I like, mixing the slender UK dogs with the heavyer boned UK dogs seems to realy blend well. Max is verly close to the type I like, but I finding it hard to find dogs like him anymore, I find it sad that I may not get a good dog of my liking next time round.


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## slkuta (Feb 14, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the passing of your dog. We had a similar experience; our red-colored golden we had to put down at 14 years so we decided on the English type. We have two wonderful dogs now - Tucker (17 months) is from Dillon's Outstanding Goldens from Clover/Nash. He just passed his TDI and CGC tests. Sierra (6 months this week) is from Tanglewood Goldens out of Sydney and outside stud Deuce. Both breeders were great to work with and have full clearances on the parents. Sounds like you are doing a good job checking, good breeders will give you pedigrees and OFA numbers you can verify. Take your time and good luck!
PM me for our experience with Starr.


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## buckeyegoldenmom (Oct 5, 2008)

sterregold said:


> This is going to be long, but I'll chime in on this one as I have dogs of primarily English background. Those of us who focus on this style as the cornerstone of our breeding for ourselves (as opposed to having "niche-marketable" puppies to sell) do not do so because of the colour. Given our connection to the UK as a member of the Commonwealth, in Canada these bloodlines have been anything but rare as some of our leading kennels focus on this style. That said, when Oprah bought her pale puppies from that deplorable excuse for a kennel we knew that the trend was going to explode, and the people capitalizing on it were not going to be focus on breeding good GOLDENS. Quite frankly, if the primary selection criteria appears to be for a so-pale-as-to-appear-white coat there is a problem. Saying "our stud dog has the palest coat we have ever seen!" or "Her bloodlines are extremely rare in North America" is a tip off.
> 
> *Well bred* dogs of English/European origin or ancestry do not have massive clunky heads or droopy eyes (because it is incorrect in the UK standard as well!), and in fact can do quite well under breeder judges even in the AKC breed ring, as they often have great strength to offer in terms of improving depth of stop, or return of upper arm for instance. My own boy has placed, owner-handled in the Open class under judges like Michael Faulkner, Don Sturz and Janice Provenzano for example. Many highly successful US kennels have used UK bred dogs, or imported them for themselves for these reasons. I also prefer the less profusely feathered coat that is typical as I find it easier to maintain in dogs that I hunt with. I also love the easy-going and biddable temperament, combined with a love of birds (my friend with an FTCH black lab prefers to shoot over my boy when we go pheasant hunting!) For me, a *good* English style dog more closely matches what I envision when reading the standard.
> 
> ...


Wow! This was a very informative post! Thank you Shelly. Several years ago I came across the Starr golden website. When I emailed them to inquire about a puppy. I was told they don't sell to Ohio people...which I found very strange since they are located in Ohio. Why??


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Doolin said:


> As far as there being one style of golden in the UK I would not be quick to categorize them as all being the same. Just as it is in the US you will find many styles of goldens being bred in the UK as well as any country. A quality golden can be found just about anywhere, just because it is not of ones taste does not mean it is not a good example of the breed.


Absolutely-- in the UK or on the continent there is a Camrose "look" and a Stanroph "look", a Dewmist "look", just like there is a Rush Hill look, and a Faera look. And of course field lines like Holway and Standerwick look different again! The good ones all still scream "Golden" when you look at them!


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Make sure you have ALL the certifications. Check the pedigree www.k9data.com and have no doubts about them posting little bits of false info. You do not want prelims or a regular doctor. You need a certified doctor for each (hips, elbows, hearts and eyes.) Go to www.offa.org to verify all the clearances. Be very careful of a marketing sceam on what they call English creams. Check out this link for the Golden Retriever club of America on white goldens. It had a good explaination for white goldens. I had someone in my puppy class that thought she had a white golden. It was a very poor breed dog but since it was lighter she paid a double. It was bowl-legged, eyes set wrong, extreme lack of bone, and did not have a good bite. She said it was expremely hyper and out of control that is why she was in class. I felt bad for her as she was an example of being taken by someone. http://www.grca.org/allabout/a_doodle-white.html


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Starr goldens do not offer the registered name to look up or valid certifications from OFA. I would look into other options and do more research.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

vixen said:


> Not 100% on topic, but I been studying Golden breed lines in the uk for a few years and been wayching the show ring closelty for the last year, and I have to say I realy don't like how stocky the Uk goldens are going, there starting to look alot like labradors in head shape.
> 
> Looking at the US bred UK stile most look realy nice to the type I like, mixing the slender UK dogs with the heavyer boned UK dogs seems to realy blend well. Max is verly close to the type I like, but I finding it hard to find dogs like him anymore, I find it sad that I may not get a good dog of my liking next time round.




This breed should always have "substance" and a fit athletic appearance. A vast majority of GR's here in the UK have both of these (apart from those poor pooches who are overfed fat blobs).


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## maggie1951 (Apr 20, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Oh yeah, should Diesel turn up in a shelter, I'd be the first one to want to save him, and if I had room, I'd keep him and think he was gorgeous. There is a big difference between what I think is a correct Golden technically, and loving all Goldens in general (which I do!). And, there are some on that page I think are nice Goldens


 
As i always take rescue dogs (English goldens ) except my last 2 still English goldens but came from Ireland i don't have a choice of shape colour or size or age with rescue just what ever needs a home lol.
But my two now are not big dogs both bitches they are quite small.
Daisy is quite tiny they think due to have having puppies at under 1 year old  and the worst thing we think Daisy was then kicked out and the puppies were never found  but what ever the dog or were they come from i love them.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I have read this thread with interest. Perhaps I could comment on the UK golden retrievers. I am a championship show judge and have previously judged at Crufts and only last week judged at LKA ch show. Golden retrievers originated in Scotland. They were bred as working dogs and this must always be considered when judging the breed. I have never been to a show in the USA and only ever seen one american bred golden that was shown probably twice in the UK. She was a champion but could not win in the UK rings. Our dogs do not have blocky heads but they do have and should have good stops and good depth of muzzle to be able to carry a bird easily. I have both show and working bred goldens and love both. My parents and Joan Gill bred the Westley and Standerwick goldens and all my dogs descend from those lines. If you wish to buy a UK style dog then look for dogs from UK lines and not from Eastern Europe where they may not be health tested, although having judged there, some of the dogs are of good quality. The european dogs are hip tested, eye tested and sometimes elbow tested but not heart tested or routinely tested for thyroid. I hope you find a lovely UK type puppy of the shade of gold or cream that you like. The UK standard states any colour shade of cream or gold exculding mahogony which is Irish setter colour and not acceptable here. Annef


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks for chiming in Anne. Miss Gill and your parents bred some stunning dogs over the years. Westley Victoria and her mother Westley Jaquetta are a couple of my ideals.


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## davebeech (Feb 11, 2006)

oh no !!!.................I don't have a big blocky head do I dad ??............you sure don't little buddy.........it's just right..........and am I too pale dad ?? ...........no Tom..........sometimes you look white, and sometimes you look pure gold, it depends on how the light catches you, You're a Golden Retriever Tom..................from England


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## twinny41 (Feb 13, 2008)

Lol Dave! Tom you are a very handsome Golden retriever and everyone here from all over the world loves you...... 
Tom..........:You_Rock_.


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## maggie1951 (Apr 20, 2007)

Very good Dave for a moment i thought you where talking about yourself not Tom LOL and yes we all love Tom and all the goldens out there


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Just because I don't think that type is correct (and anyone can see it does not match the foundation dogs in the breed) doesn't mean I don't think it's cute and wouldn't love the dog!


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Tom, I think you are just... well... beautiful!!!! (and no I don't think your head is too blocky!)


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## twinny41 (Feb 13, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Just because I don't think that type is correct (and anyone can see it does not match the foundation dogs in the breed) doesn't mean I don't think it's cute and wouldn't love the dog!


Fair comment. I am sure you would but as I really don't have the first clue about the breed standard I think to those of us who own or have owned, love and have loved , the "paler, stockier goldens" we may have taken the reference to them as such, a little too personally.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I don't think a snipey nosed little red dog is correct either, but it can still be an awesome dog. And by the way, i have owned both types.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

annef said:


> I have read this thread with interest. Perhaps I could comment on the UK golden retrievers. I am a championship show judge and have previously judged at Crufts and only last week judged at LKA ch show. Golden retrievers originated in Scotland. They were bred as working dogs and this must always be considered when judging the breed. I have never been to a show in the USA and only ever seen one american bred golden that was shown probably twice in the UK. She was a champion but could not win in the UK rings. Our dogs do not have blocky heads but they do have and should have good stops and good depth of muzzle to be able to carry a bird easily. I have both show and working bred goldens and love both. My parents and Joan Gill bred the Westley and Standerwick goldens and all my dogs descend from those lines. If you wish to buy a UK style dog then look for dogs from UK lines and not from Eastern Europe where they may not be health tested, although having judged there, some of the dogs are of good quality. The european dogs are hip tested, eye tested and sometimes elbow tested but not heart tested or routinely tested for thyroid. I hope you find a lovely UK type puppy of the shade of gold or cream that you like. The UK standard states any colour shade of cream or gold exculding mahogony which is Irish setter colour and not acceptable here. Annef


 
Oh, so nice to hear from Anne! I do appreciate a beautiful, _correct _English Golden, and ditto a beautiful, _correct _Eastern European Golden, or any other country of origin. It does not necessarily mean that any of them are my preferred style, but I appreciate a good one of whatever style, as long as there is type. I owned an English import - Rossbourne Sabre. We adored him, and he was a lovely English dog, but he was not my preferred style - he was imported by another breeder to the US to use in her breeding program, but his hips did not clear, so he became my husband's hunting companion after her own husband became disabled and could no longer hunt himself. That said, there _are _several Eglish and European dogs that I would have home in a heartbeat - they are dogs that I feel would do well in rings here...
It is wonderful to have a respected UK judge on forum to help with the challenge of the ongoing "Rare British/English Creme" debate.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> Just because I don't think that type is correct (and anyone can see it does not match the foundation dogs in the breed) doesn't mean I don't think it's cute and wouldn't love the dog!


UK and USA standards are different, we all have our favorites and what depending on our Country try and conform to.

In the UK red or Mahogany Golden's would not be acceptable in the show ring neither would white hence the word gold (not red, white cream etc) but here in the UK we would not be so rude about another country's type as you have. "quote horribly over done, overly stocky and huge houndy heads" but as has been pointed out and quite rightly so the breed originated in the UK.

Dave got to love Tom how could we not


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## LilTuffGirl (Sep 22, 2009)

....So.... Would a true UK golden have an accent when it barked? Does it like tea?? 



sorry ... was just my first thought when I read the title... I'm part english!! My dad is a Scottish/English cross from england. It's a good thing humans aren't heald to such standards during breeding or i'd be in the pound. 

Yes totaly off topic, again.. sorry..


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

LilTuffGirl said:


> ....So.... Would a true UK golden have an accent when it barked? Does it like tea??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yes they bark in Queens English and have tea in a cup and saucer LOL


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## LilTuffGirl (Sep 22, 2009)

honeysmum said:


> Yes they bark in Queens English and have tea in a cup and saucer LOL


 If I had one I would so get it one of those really big red hats and teach it to stand by the door and not move.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

LilTuffGirl said:


> ....So.... Would a true UK golden have an accent when it barked? Does it like tea??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
HAHAHAHA!!!! They DO! Sabre's bark was this sort of tenor "Woop! Woop! Woop!" My sons, young at the time, always said he barked with an English accent!!!


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

I would just like to add that a UK Golden comes in various shades. I find it interesting that it's only the very light cream ones which get such "special" attention in the US. When seeing a whole line of stunning examples of the breed, do some think "Oh look, there's an English Creme", pointing out the creme one in the line-up. No, they're all English, and they are all different shades!

I don't know anyone here who would purposely breed a litter soley to produce a certain "shade" and I think that is what the main objection is.

When choosing a suitable sire for my girl, it is far more important to study the pedigree and lines and study pictures/see the dog in the flesh before making a final decision. That decision would NEVER soley be made on the colour of the dog!

It seems clear that money making outfits will put two light dogs together just to get light puppies. Not the kind of breeding I would ever be interested in!!


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

tanyac said:


> I would just like to add that a UK Golden comes in various shades. I find it interesting that it's only the very light cream ones which get such "special" attention in the US. When seeing a whole line of stunning examples of the breed, do some think "Oh look, there's an English Creme", pointing out the creme one in the line-up. No, they're all English, and they are all different shades!
> 
> I don't know anyone here who would purposely breed a litter soley to produce a certain "shade" and I think that is what the main objection is.
> 
> ...


 Neither would any other breeder in the UK Tanya you would never I am sure find advertised pups in the UK as white,light or pale as they are only marketed like that in USA, here a Golden is just that, some lighter Golden than others, as in your litter some were a little lighter than others but all to UK breed standard, but none white/cream or reds


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

It would be hard to deny that some UK dogs are massive, oversized, and over done with boxy heads, too much stop, and loose lips. It would also be hard to deny that some American dogs are very, very incorrect- in some cases for the same reasons- too big, too much bone, and heads a Rottweiler would envy. 

I meant no insult. You can feel that my dogs are not good examples of the breed, and it wouldn't offend me. They're all Goldens and cute and beautiful in their own way.

The thing that gets me, though, is that it is US *and* UK _field type_ dogs that look the most like the old black and white photos of the first Goldens in the UK. They, are IMO, the most generally correct (spare some of the extreme US field types).

It's only my opinion, and I'm just some idiot with a bunch of rescue dogs, so what does it matter anyway?

BTW, off topic, Honey's Mum, have you seen my new foster? He is a Great Dane and Golden cross!


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## twinny41 (Feb 13, 2008)

I would like to see pics of your GD & GR cross. Where are they?


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## twinny41 (Feb 13, 2008)

AquaClaraCanines said:


> It would be hard to deny that some UK dogs are massive, oversized, and over done with boxy heads, too much stop, and loose lips. It would also be hard to deny that some American dogs are very, very incorrect- in some cases for the same reasons- too big, too much bone, and heads a Rottweiler would envy.


You know what? I agree. An American Golden (generally) is lankier and less stocky than the British Type and these differences are reflected in the breed standard. So,therefore it's again down to whatever type you prefer. I am sure if I owned a lanky, less stocky, red I would prefer that. Indeed Sandie was dark golden and when I went to see Meg as a puppy I was disappointed cos she was lighter than I wanted and her mother and Aunt were long and lanky! Lol. The main point I suppose is that breeding them to the standard helps with the overall health and longevity of the dog, hopefully.


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

From the AKC breed standard - Color: Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault
Extracted from the BRITISH K.C. breed standard - Golden Retriever "Colour: Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible." For some reason the AMERICAN K.C. has a completely different breed standard for the same breed of dog??? AND nowhere in either of the above 'extractions does it say WHITE!!!


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

and don't you think that, e.g., when judging in a show shouldn't the dogs colour be the last consideration for prizes etc., also when picking a GR kennel to buy a Golden the first consideration shouldn't be colour it should be the dog's temperament? just about everything else should be secondary.....


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

welshgold said:


> and don't you think that, e.g., when judging in a show shouldn't the dogs colour be the last consideration for prizes etc., also when picking a gr kennel to buy a golden the first consideration shouldn't be colour it should be the dog's temperament? Just about everything else should be secondary.....


yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

It would be hard to deny that some UK dogs are massive, oversized, and over done with boxy heads, too much stop, and loose lips.

No please stop. We breed to the breed standard. I really don't think I have ever judged any really over sized dogs . Our dogs need to have a good stop, something I feel is missing in many lines. Please don't condemn our dogs that are bred to our breed standard. Loose lips or too much flew are also rare it is much commoner to find dogs with snipy muzzles. If you read the UK breed standard you will find it asks for a good stop, good width of skill and good depth of muzzle. That is what we breed to meet the breed standard. If you don't like them personally that's fine no-one is asking you to but please don't critise the UK breeders breeding to our breed standard. Annef


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Well the dog in your signature is in no way the type I am referring to.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

I do believe that the goldens from the UK are beautiful. They do not fit the AKC standard but are wonderful dogs. I think the people in the US need to be careful purchasing what they think is an English Golden. Some of my pups come out very light and I wouldn't market them any different then the ones of a darker shade.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Color should not be the main priority when judging, nor should it be when purchasing a dog. It has not been my experience that judges make it a priority here in the States at all, but rather give it the same weight as the standard does, and that is that "Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable". Owners of "English type" dogs that are not winning are blaming their losses entirely on color, but what I have seen has been because of structural or movement faults (mainly rears). I have seen some gorgeous English dogs that I think would be competitive in the States, but few American dogs that would do much in the UK. I believe that it goes to the term "moderate" and that we have fairly different interpretations of what is "moderate" between the 2 countries. Jeffrey Pepper wrote a interesting article which was published in the October AKC Gazette about the differences/similarities in the standards. It will also be published in the upcoming GRNews.


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## vixen (Jul 26, 2008)

annef said:


> It would be hard to deny that some UK dogs are massive, oversized, and over done with boxy heads, too much stop, and loose lips.
> 
> No please stop. We breed to the breed standard. I really don't think I have ever judged any really over sized dogs . Our dogs need to have a good stop, something I feel is missing in many lines. Please don't condemn our dogs that are bred to our breed standard. Loose lips or too much flew are also rare it is much commoner to find dogs with snipy muzzles. If you read the UK breed standard you will find it asks for a good stop, good width of skill and good depth of muzzle. That is what we breed to meet the breed standard. If you don't like them personally that's fine no-one is asking you to but please don't critise the UK breeders breeding to our breed standard. Annef


Anne I do respect you opinion my lad Desends from Westley Lines and they produce some stunning dogs.

But sadly I still beleave out goldens are starting to look like labradors, the 2 dogs in the pictures are an exsample of this, my boyfriend took this pic to show me as he thought they where in fact Labs, but wasn't shore.

















I spoke to a few people at Crufts this years and some agread with me this is the way things seem to be going and not what is wanted.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

The one dog in the picture needs more length of muzzle but has a correct stop. Bone is correct but he is harder in expression than I think he should be.The dog in my picture a UK Sh Ch but is a bitch not a dog and could probably do with a little more stop and in some people's minds more width of skull. I love her head but there are judges who will think she is not strong enough. Many of these really strong dogs produce good puppies on bitches that need more substance. Annef


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

annef said:


> The one dog in the picture needs more length of muzzle but has a correct stop. Bone is correct but he is harder in expression than I think he should be.The dog in my picture a UK Sh Ch but is a bitch not a dog and could probably do with a little more stop and in some people's minds more width of skull. I love her head but there are judges who will think she is not strong enough. Many of these really strong dogs produce good puppies on bitches that need more substance. Annef


And this illustrates that breeding is not simply putting two intact animals of the opposite sex together. It requires honest assessment of the individual's strengths and weaknesses, and understanding how they may compliment each other and might "fix" any weakness or enhance desirable traits, _including _temperament and genetic health.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

I think the two "Labrador type" ones are exactly what I am talking about. Not correct at all.

Anne, I love your bitch's head from what I can see. I'd prefer that on a male, but it still is good to me.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I think we as people who care about the standards (both the American and the English), need to explain why breeding to the standard is important for people who are looking for pet dogs. Posters so frequently write that they don't care if their dog is breed to the standard since it will never be shown. 

But the standard is so much more than color (and even color play some part in the function of a hunting dog). It is how all the parts of the dog go together to make a dog who can hunt all day, which translates to a dog who won't have structural problems from normal physical activity when they reach six years old or younger.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> I think we as people who care about the standards (both the American and the English), need to explain why breeding to the standard is important for people who are looking for pet dogs. Posters so frequently write that they don't care if their dog is breed to the standard since it will never be shown.
> 
> But the standard is so much more than color (and even color play some part in the function of a hunting dog). It is how all the parts of the dog go together to make a dog who can hunt all day, which translates to a dog who won't have structural problems from normal physical activity when they reach six years old or younger.


:appl:I've defended breeding to standard until I am blue in the face. And could make a career out of of attempting to educate how important, on so may levels, it is. As have numerous other breeders here. The "it's just a pet" mindset is so frustrating.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Selli-Belle said:


> I think we as people who care about the standards (both the American and the English), need to explain why breeding to the standard is important for people who are looking for pet dogs. Posters so frequently write that they don't care if their dog is breed to the standard since it will never be shown.
> 
> But the standard is so much more than color (and even color play some part in the function of a hunting dog). It is how all the parts of the dog go together to make a dog who can hunt all day, which translates to a dog who won't have structural problems from normal physical activity when they reach six years old or younger.


This is exactly right! The majority of the dogs I produce are destined to be loved family pets-dogs who can go hiking with the family, play fetch with the kids, hunt with Dad and Mom if they want-and they can't do these things if they have serious structural problems.


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## Hershey (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd make sure to do a lot of research if you go in the way of the "English" Golden Retrievers. There are more and more lines of EGR's that have been showing temperament problems, like food aggression and aggression in general.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Hershey said:


> I'd make sure to do a lot of research if you go in the way of the "English" Golden Retrievers. There are more and more lines of EGR's that have been showing temperament problems, like food aggression and aggression in general.


Can you substantiate that claim please.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Hershey said:


> I'd make sure to do a lot of research if you go in the way of the "English" Golden Retrievers. There are more and more lines of EGR's that have been showing temperament problems, like food aggression and aggression in general.


I'm not sure that what you are seeing is typical of English Golden Retrievers, but maybe more due to poor breeding practices and lack of knowledge with some of the questionable breeders here who have hopped on the "creme/white/English golden" bandwagon to make a quick buck.

There is a kennel in my area with an imported Eastern European stud dog. Whether the fault lies in the dog or in their bitches, they are producing a lot of dogs with seizures and poor temperaments. I don't think it is Eastern European Goldens that have the problem but rather this kennel and how they are/were handling their breedings (haven't heard of them in a while).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Hershey said:


> I'd make sure to do a lot of research if you go in the way of the "English" Golden Retrievers. There are more and more lines of EGR's that have been showing temperament problems, like food aggression and aggression in general.


I wouldn't specify English goldens; I have seen these problems popping up with more and more frequency in American lines.I think the problem goes back to too many people breeding for specific traits and not the whole package. If you breed for what will win in the ring, but don't take temperment into account, you will see a decline in good temperment. Those people breeding "pets" that only care about breeding good temperments are loosing the look and structure of a good golden. Putting too much focus on specific traits and not the whole package is what has given us such a split between show and field dogs.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

***BREEDERS DO NOT EXPORT THEIR BEST DOGS. 
As a rule, you'll find that dogs that have been brought into the US from other countries are of a quality that would not be bred in their country of origin, but have been sold at a pretty profit to unscrupulous "breeders" who market them here in the states as somehow "rare", "special", or "better". Now, that is not to say that there are not reputable fanciers here in the states working closely with reputable breeders in other countries - there are - but they have established breeding programs, are doing health clearances, competing in one or more venues, and have imported fine dogs in order to enhance or compliment dogs that they currently have.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Pointgold is right on point with this. Just as with any bloodlines, it takes years to learn the strengths and pitfalls of these pedigrees--what works well together, and what can produce problems. It also takes time to earn the respect needed to get a good dog from a good breeder overseas. One friend, a breeder of very many years, had a pup sent from the UK after having gone to visit the breeder from whom they were interested in importing. However the pup that arrived did not have the charateristics sought or discussed! This person was bold enough to hop on a plane with said pup and go to that breeder to say, we need to make a trade for the pup I had requested! So if this can happen to an experienced, well-respected fancier, imagine what is getting sent to the cash grabbers, who don't have a clue about good conformation in the first place, buying "Breeding stock" sight unseen from people they have never met!


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't know about everyone else but (Goldenfan has not posted on this thread since 14th) he/she wanted advice about a particular Kennel I believe that advice was given on that, and hope he/she was happy with the advice, perhaps this thread should end as it has gone way off the original question and perhaps if anyone wants to, start a thread on a more relevant board? just my tpw


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## Golden Leo (Dec 3, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> There is a kennel in my area with an imported Eastern European stud dog. Whether the fault lies in the dog or in their bitches, they are producing a lot of dogs with seizures and poor temperaments. I don't think it is Eastern European Goldens that have the problem but rather this kennel and how they are/were handling their breedings (haven't heard of them in a while).



Could you please tell me from which kennel is the dog?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Golden Leo said:


> Could you please tell me from which kennel is the dog?


It's been awhile and I hate to say what I think the dogs name may have been, because there are a few in this area. He actually was a pretty nice looking boy, from a show kennel, and I remember wondering if his previous owner really understood to what kind of kennel he was selling him too.

If he is the one I am thinking of, he is a Polish import. I can't remember the names of the dams involved with the puppies that I knew of.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Thank-you, Thank-you, Thank-you for this thread. The education I receive from a thread like this are greatly appreciated. I'm sorry if it was at the expense of the OP's thread. Thank-you to all.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Hershey said:


> I'd make sure to do a lot of research if you go in the way of the "English" Golden Retrievers. There are more and more lines of EGR's that have been showing temperament problems, like food aggression and aggression in general.


Okay this thread is not going to end so I would like you to establish your post about aggression In UK Golden's.
Do you mean British type Golden's that are bread in the USA or Golden's that are bread in Britain? please clarify just so that we are all absolutely sure.
Oh btw English Golden's no no no they are British Golden's the breed was established in Scotland, please do your research.


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

would us brits slag off the ameican dog nowe wouldnt why cos we are too polite but here we go so what you are say for thse of you on the other side of the pond is your dogs are perfect have no so called food aggression look the part well how about this we brits also think the same our dogs are just how we brits like them between the two sides of the poind are never gonna agree at the end of the day we all lov our dogs for who they are wether they be show dogs pet dogs breeding dogs and just to let you all wake up and smell the dam coffee none of them are flipping perfect wether british, european,american or any where else in this world ALL I KNOW IS IM SICK OF PEOPLE SLAGGING OFF OTHE PEOPLES GOLDENS


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## Goldenmomma (Oct 15, 2009)

I haven't been on the site in over a week and boy did I miss this discussion. Personally, goldens are goldens. I haven't had a chance to read all of the responses, but my vet said that our east coast is having a problem with agression, but I blame bad puppy mills and backyard breeders trying to make a quick dollar. My goldens are awesome and I don't carry where they came from--the golden lineage comes from Scotland and I leave it there.


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## Doolin (Jun 23, 2008)

Guys, seriously, to insinuate that demographics play a part in any type of fault is lacking proof(at best). Food aggression, head type, rears....... you can find these weaknesses in any country, it doesn't take much! I have heard everything from, don't buy a dog in this are they are prone to skin allergies and HD. A local vet said this, seriously??? 

I didn't know that by bringing my one girl from a breeder in Canada and another from the east coast here that they would now be prone to producing these issues. Ridiculous right! If only people thought before they spoke and realized how foolish they can sound.

Really you can find issues anywhere if you look close enough. And yes there will be higher incidences in some areas where there is a higher concentration of poor breeders. But to say american lines have ___________ or lines in the UK have _________ ..... do the research and realize general statements are very incorrect and mislead those looking to be educated on this breed. 

Personally I can find individuals on both sides of the pond I would love to have living with me. Generalizations, are a bad idea in any situation. If people would just do the research, they would realize how much progress could be made by not having false perceptions of lines unfamiliar to them. Too many people take rumors as fact, I see it all to often in the conformation world over here. What a disservice to the dogs and breeders this is.

Enough of this, I am going to play with my mixed up golden litter. They speak with their mother's canadian accent but think they are high and mighty like their american father......


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

For a break from the dogs lol.......
It was nice and sunny, cold and clear today so I went to this place http://www.gigrin.co.uk/ one of my fav haunts for picture taking, for years now they have fed the Red Kites daily in a field surrounded with photo hides - well worth a day out...go on go there over the holiday period!
A Red Kite swooping down for food








A Red Kite








A Red Kite








A Buzzard








and Merry Christmas - a Robin!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

FANTASTIC shots!!!!!! (No surprise, yours always are awesome photos!)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Your robins are different that ours... yours look like what we call and Eastern Bluebird.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Doolin said:


> Guys, seriously, to insinuate that demographics play a part in any type of fault is lacking proof(at best). Food aggression, head type, rears....... you can find these weaknesses in any country, it doesn't take much! I have heard everything from, don't buy a dog in this are they are prone to skin allergies and HD. A local vet said this, seriously???
> 
> I didn't know that by bringing my one girl from a breeder in Canada and another from the east coast here that they would now be prone to producing these issues. Ridiculous right! If only people thought before they spoke and realized how foolish they can sound.
> 
> ...


Sorry I dont know how to cut and paste bits of a post but:appl::appl::appl:and thank you.
Enjoy your play time with your pups, and look forward to more pics.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

OMG, those pictures took my breath away! I would be speechless to see these in person. Your pictures are unbelievable!

Are you sure that's a robin? It looks kind of like a warbler but I never see that kind of bird around here, I have no idea. 

I love birds! Thank you for these pictures, I actually got excited! LOL


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Your robins are different that ours... yours look like what we call and Eastern Bluebird.


Interesting, I'm on a steep learning curve here re; identification of birds, is this an eastern bluebird you've mentioned? http://birdcinema.com/bird_search_r..._name=&bird_family=&habitat=&region=&keyword=


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Yeah, I don't think that looks like an Eastern bluebird, unless it's a female or young or something? Did you see any blue on it? 

It looks more like some type of warbler, but I never see this type of bird in my parts, I have no idea! I'm looking through my bird books right now :


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

welshgold said:


> Interesting, I'm on a steep learning curve here re; identification of birds, is this an eastern bluebird you've mentioned? http://birdcinema.com/bird_search_r..._name=&bird_family=&habitat=&region=&keyword=


Yes, but that one is a male. The one you photographed looks a lot like either the fledges or females that we see here. My husband and son built a dozen new bluebird boxes and replaced the 8 old ones that were here in our meadow when we bought this property. The birds claimed them quickly although there are constant "real estate wars" between the bluebirds and the swallows over the boxes...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

And this is what our robins look like (the robin is actually our state bird...) they are largish (some of ours are so fat I don't know how they get up on our bird baths or build their nests in our rafters!!!)


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

And the buzzard sure doesn't look the buzzards I've seen in the US! Much better looking than ours are


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

*Wow, Fabulous pics*



welshgold said:


> For a break from the dogs lol.......
> It was nice and sunny, cold and clear today so I went to this place http://www.gigrin.co.uk/ one of my fav haunts for picture taking, for years now they have fed the Red Kites daily in a field surrounded with photo hides - well worth a day out...go on go there over the holiday period!
> A Red Kite swooping down for food
> 
> ...



I always say pick up the Jack Russell's to my friend when those babies come around. Excellent pics! (Except not to worry about the Robin)


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Wow ... those photos are amazing... I should have known who they were posted by... you pix are so stunning.... please post more when you have time


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## timberwolf (Apr 1, 2009)

Welshgold - those pics are worthy of National Geographic!!!
Wow!!! If you are not into photography, then you've missed your calling


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Wow...great bird pictures. I had no idea UK robins were different then ours. How cool is that!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> And the buzzard sure doesn't look the buzzards I've seen in the US! Much better looking than ours are


Yes - he looks similar to our red-tail hawks...

Unbelieveable photos...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Gorgeous photos-I need a new camera!! (And some talent would help too!)


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

Our robins are called robin red breasts, 

http://www.garden-birds.co.uk/birds/robin.htm

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/r/robin/index.aspx


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

mist said:


> Our robins are called robin red breasts,
> 
> http://www.garden-birds.co.uk/birds/robin.htm
> 
> http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/birdguide/name/r/robin/index.aspx


So it is a robin! Wow, I've learned something new about birds  And it's interesting the sexes are nearly identical. Back to the books for me!! :


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I can't believe robins could look so different!! Don't you get little Robin redbreasts on christmas cards in the US? We just did a christmas play at school where a whole class of 5 year olds dressed up as robins and did a little dance....it was the cutest thing I have ever seen!!


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

*The English Robin - a symbol of Christmas*









Here in the UK, few things say Christmas quite as much as the *traditional English robin*. You'll find this favourite British bird on greetings cards, Christmas cakes, tree ornaments and decorations everywhere.
In fact, the *Christmas greetings card* has its origins in Victorian England, so it is no surprise that the robin became one of the most popular Christmas motifs.
Officially known as the *European Robin* (Erithacus rubecula), and affectionately called the *Robin Redbreast*, this frequent garden visitor in the UK looks very different from his American cousin (turdus migratorius).
Although not close relations, they do both share a reddish breast. In the European Robin, these feathers can be quite a vivid orange, rather than red. Both the male and female birds have this distinctive colouring and look very similar.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Nope, in fact robins are more a symbol of spring here. Our traditional Christmas bird is the cardinal, usually the male or the male and female together. Do you all have cardinals? It's funny, I've never considered that our birds would be so different.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Paula has cardinals! She's got a beautiful picture, I'm going to PM her and ask her to post it here. 

Yes, we have cardinals. I love to see them, they always come to feed just before dusk. Unlike the European robins, female cardinals are almost all brown but still have the red beak. Male cardinals are vivid red.

Going to go find Paula now :wave:


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Here ya go....This is actually my screen saver right now.

It looks like this again today. We have 12" so far. No Cardinals this year, though.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Paula, I just blew up your pic. I think you have at least 2 female cardinals there, possibly 3  That's a lot of cardinals together in one place ... great photograph.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Here's another. We had 8 Cardinals that stayed around our yard last Winter. No sign of them so far this year.


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Jo Ellen said:


> Paula, I just blew up your pic. I think you have at least 2 female cardinals there, possibly 3  That's a lot of cardinals together in one place ... great photograph.


Are you finding more than 8?
I had never seen so many Cardinals together before and they spent that entire Winter together in my yard. I was trying to find a Cardinal dwelling to build, but there is no such thing. They live in brush.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I'm now constantly going to wikipedia looking up birds! Its funny what you can learn on a Golden Retriever site.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

paula bedard said:


> Are you finding more than 8?


In your first pictures, I see 9 for sure, possibly 10. I think the bird inbetween the 2 males at the feeder is a female cardinal. Then just beside the bottom middle male, that might be a female too? And the obvious one at the far top right.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

What gorgeous photos!!! I just e-mailed them to my parents... they love cardinals too. I can't believe how amazing the pictures are... you could win a contest with those.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

The Dogfather is trying to find a photo of the red tailed hawk that considers our meadow a fast-food drive through (lots of mice and chippies and little rabbits). He got a shot of him sitting in our garden on the peace pole. He looked at Welshgold's photos and said it is the exact same bird. He was also very impressed with the pictures!!! 

The robins here are harbinger's of Springtime. They fly south for the winterWe are always excited to see the first one, knowing that it means that winter is over! 
Cardinals are a symbol of winter and are often the subject of our Christmas cards. We see a few here from time to time, but as our property is very open, with few trees, they don't hang around. The are beautiful birds, though.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Emma&Tilly said:


> *The English Robin - a symbol of Christmas*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What cute little birds!! We call ours Robin Redbreast, too, the origin of that name likely from you all across the pond. The do look _very_ different from ours...


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## Emma&Tilly (May 15, 2005)

I love how this thread has turned from English and American goldens to English and American Robins!! Weird.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I forgot how much fun I used to have bird-watching! For some reason, I don't get as many birds here as I did at the other house, although I get more grouse and pheasant here.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Tahnee, do you put out bird seed and peanuts? Feed them and they will come  Especially in the wintertime when food can be scarce ... birds need food to keep their energy up and stay warm!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Well gosh, now I want to post my favorite mourning dove photo from when I had my nest last spring. This morning I counted 12 mourning doves in my backyard tree ... I like to think the babies here were among them :heartbeat


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> I forgot how much fun I used to have bird-watching! For some reason, I don't get as many birds here as I did at the other house, although I get more grouse and pheasant here.


Our home before this one was in the woods, and we had _lots _of feeders out, and sa such a huge variety of birds. When we moved here, it was very different. We put out feeders, but the difference between woods and meadow creatures is incredible. We've been so lucky to even see a pair of bald eagles - not as often as we'd like, but they are out there. There is a huge snowy owl that likes to sit on the roof of the kennel building, he's beautiful. The red tailed hawk has grown very large and has been here since a fledgling in 2007. The meadow keeps them all well fed. Our feeders mainly attract sparrows, a variety of finches, and the robins. We have meadowlarks, cowbirds, doves, and grackles that are ground feeders. We also have killdeer, those little buggers will try to chase you from their nests, even if you aren't very close to them! One morning this fall I was walking over to the kennel and a partridge flushed in front of me and about scared me half to death! But that was unusual, we rarely see them. Haven't seen a pheasant here in several years...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Jo Ellen said:


> Tahnee, do you put out bird seed and peanuts? Feed them and they will come  Especially in the wintertime when food can be scarce ... birds need food to keep their energy up and stay warm!


No, I haven't. I probably should-at my old house, there were cornfields right behind the house and we had a lot of feed around for the cows and the horse. I do worry because there are several barn cats from across the road that come over, and I really don't feel like providing them a meal of birds. There are plenty of mice for them to eat this year, since the fox moved out.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Jo Ellen said:


> Well gosh, now I want to post my favorite mourning dove photo from when I had my nest last spring. This morning I counted 12 mourning doves in my backyard tree ... I like to think the babies here were among them :heartbeat


Beautiful picture-I bet those babies are out there, Jo Ellen!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I have neighbor cats too that I don't really appreciate. I put the seed out in the open where the ground-feeder birds have a clear view of what's around, and then also in my hanging planters near my porch. I love it when the black-capped chickadees come, they are the cutest little birds. 

Having a fox would be cool .... but careful what you wish for, huh?


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

My 'wild canaries' (Grandad's term, I believe they are finches)











Young Red Tail at the edge of my yard last year...I thought he was hurt, his mother calling overhead, him staring intently at my garden, ignoring her. Was about to call the local Raptor Center when I realized he was focused on my 'bobble head owl' on a fencepost. I slowly walked up and took it off the post and covered it. He sailed out of the tree to join his mama then










I keep 2 feeders full, year round, so I have permanent resident Jays, Cardinals, various woodpeckers and Nuthatches, and not a single picture of my snowy feeders.  I'll have to remedy that today, as we are having one helluva snow event!

Bird trivia for today
Whenever you see footage of Bald Eagles and hear the accompanying glorious 'call'..that's not an Eagle, it's the RedTailed Hawks cry. Eagles make a growly pitiful call.

I was in Costa Rica in December several years ago and was amazed to see our Robins everywhere! Found out that's where our harbingers of Spring migrate to in the winter. Pretty cool


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Here's our redtailed hawk...


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

They are awesome birds....riding the thermals in lazy circles...love them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

moverking said:


> Young Red Tail at the edge of my yard last year...I thought he was hurt, his mother calling overhead, him staring intently at my garden, ignoring her. Was about to call the local Raptor Center when I realized he was focused on my 'bobble head owl' on a fencepost. I slowly walked up and took it off the post and covered it. He sailed out of the tree to join his mama then


That's what our guy looked like when he appeared in August of 2007. He's wearin' his big boy suit now! And has gained much confidence in the 2 years that he's been here...


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

moverking said:


> They are awesome birds....riding the thermals in lazy circles...love them.


Me, too. The Dogfather took that pic from our deck and was only _maybe _20 feet or so from him. He's become very bold, and knows he pretty much owns the meadow.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Gorgeous birds! We get the eagles here too-I love them but not so much when they come around when I have puppies or the Crested outside! We run inside when that happens!

I always thought that my being around would discourage them-but apparently not so. My friend was walking to her mailbox in what I call a "rural subdivision" of big houses on 5 acres of land, when suddenly she felt a "whoosh" and something faintly touching her shoulder. It was a hawk who swooped past her and grabbed a baby rabbit! Scared the daylights out of her


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## rosemary (Jul 7, 2007)

Emma&Tilly said:


> I love how this thread has turned from English and American goldens to English and American Robins!! Weird.


 talk about fickle lets continue on the birds shall we the conversation is far more pleasant


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> Gorgeous birds! We get the eagles here too-I love them but not so much when they come around when I have puppies or the Crested outside! We run inside when that happens!
> 
> I always thought that my being around would discourage them-but apparently not so. My friend was walking to her mailbox in what I call a "rural subdivision" of big houses on 5 acres of land, when suddenly she felt a "whoosh" and something faintly touching her shoulder. It was a hawk who swooped past her and grabbed a baby rabbit! Scared the daylights out of her


Ha! They can eat all the rabbits they want - they destroy all of our shrubbery, and, well, they breed like rabbits!  It is disconcerting, though, when either a hawk, or worse yet, a coyote, snags one. The screaming is the stuff that nightmares are made of...


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

This is the view of the birds/red kites/jackdaws etc. from the hides at this place http://www.gigrin.co.uk/ at feeding time, the tractor on the right of this pic distributes the huge sums of fresh meat fed every day at 2pm (3pm in summer) 










They then swoop down picking up the meat, this gives you a great chance of an action pic - if you're fast enough because these are very swift birds!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

welshgold said:


> This is the view of the birds/red kites/jackdaws etc. from the hides at this place http://www.gigrin.co.uk/ at feeding time, the tractor on the right of this pic distributes the huge sums of fresh meat fed every day at 2pm (3pm in summer)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very cool!


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## twinny41 (Feb 13, 2008)

Who changed the subject then? Graham? Great idea, interesting topic and cool pictures too.


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

twinny41 said:


> Who changed the subject then? Graham? Great idea, interesting topic and cool pictures too.


Just thought that we were all getting a bit edgy about the differences between our Goldens on either side of the pond....doesn't help that the majority of folk on here are women!!! lol only kidding...honestly! :doh:
Blimey that's ruined any chance of a xmas present from anyone on here lol


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

here's my first attempt at using movie mode on my iPhone I had recently...shows Elvis 'sitting' and Allez nearly knocking me over think you need quick time player to see it

/Users/grahammorgan/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Originals/2009/26 Nov 2009/IMG_0039.MOV


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## davebeech (Feb 11, 2006)

welshgold said:


> here's my first attempt at using movie mode on my iPhone I had recently...shows Elvis 'sitting' and Allez nearly knocking me over think you need quick time player to see it
> 
> /Users/grahammorgan/Pictures/iPhoto Library/Originals/2009/26 Nov 2009/IMG_0039.MOV


So how do you like the iphone ?? Tesco are doing it now and I am quite tempted, also the company I work for will be selling it soon and need to see at what price


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## welshgold (Feb 27, 2007)

twinny41 said:


> Who changed the subject then? Graham? Great idea, interesting topic and cool pictures too.





davebeech said:


> So how do you like the iphone ?? Tesco are doing it now and I am quite tempted, also the company I work for will be selling it soon and need to see at what price


It's fantastic Dave, although I'm now a self confessed Apple geek and therefore I'm a bit biased. The camera has been upgraded (3mp) and the video is superb, the phone is ultra quick and I can pick up the internet just about everywhere - the only downside is the price, but then you get what you pay for...the handset quality is second to none! I'm paying for mine through orange at £44/ month it's an iPhone 3GS with 16gb memory - fab! http://www.apple.com/iphone/


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## davebeech (Feb 11, 2006)

welshgold said:


> It's fantastic Dave, although I'm now a self confessed Apple geek and therefore I'm a bit biased. The camera has been upgraded (3mp) and the video is superb, the phone is ultra quick and I can pick up the internet just about everywhere - the only downside is the price, but then you get what you pay for...the handset quality is second to none! I'm paying for mine through orange at £44/ month it's an iPhone 3GS with 16gb memory - fab! http://www.apple.com/iphone/


I think everyone who has an iphone loves it, I'm on my second blackberry and I think they are very good too but I can see me getting an iphone pretty soon


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

So, back to the _first _turn off topic in this thread  it was so weird - yesterday as I was driving around running all my errands, I was listening to Michael Feldman's "Whad'Ya Know?" and one of the quiz questions was about European Robins. (The actual question was what part of the bird - beak, eyes or breast - is their magnetic compass? Answer: eyes) And they were talking about how they look so different from ours... I was wondering if maybe one of the show staff was on GRF!!! LOL


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## alewynk (Mar 23, 2009)

I have a Starr Goldens puppy, Lacey, who is 10 months old. You can see her pictures in the Puppy Gallery. She really beautiful, has been a little tough, very high energy, but calming down now and very sweet. The owner is a little hard to relate to, but very nice on the phone. Doesn't do email very well. Ask to see his contract before buying.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Pointgold said:


> So, back to the _first _turn off topic in this thread  it was so weird - yesterday as I was driving around running all my errands, I was listening to Michael Feldman's "Whad'Ya Know?" and one of the quiz questions was about European Robins. (The actual question was what part of the bird - beak, eyes or breast - is their magnetic compass? Answer: eyes) And they were talking about how they look so different from ours... I was wondering if maybe one of the show staff was on GRF!!! LOL


I have to say....I prefer those British Robins. They are so sweet looking and do remind me of Blue Birds.......


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## MAJacksonK9OTR (Jun 1, 2010)

Ok I'm so frustrated the more research I do the more confused I get. I just want to find a good breeder. Health and temperament is my primary but I favor the very light goldens. Who would you buy a puppy from seeing as you are in the circle of this and have lots of good info. Thanks so much for your time.


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

Contact the Golden breed club closest to you, and ask for referrals. As the paler goldens are becoming more popular in your county there will be some available from reputable breeders. What ever you do do not call them English Creams, just mention your preference is for a paler golden. No one here is against Cream/Pale goldens it's just the false advertising, asking for more money for a supposedly rare item and the fact that many come from bad/poor breeding places as well as puppy farms.

A true lover of our breed will be happy to help and will share and have copies of all health clearances,


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

MAJacksonK9OTR said:


> Ok I'm so frustrated the more research I do the more confused I get. I just want to find a good breeder. Health and temperament is my primary but I favor the very light goldens. Who would you buy a puppy from seeing as you are in the circle of this and have lots of good info. Thanks so much for your time.


Mist gave you excellent advice about hooking up with your local golden retriever club; this person is in England, so there is a limit as to the advice that can be given "across the pond."

However, it's your lucky day. You're in Collier County, and I'm in Broward, and I know what golden retriever clubs we have in the Sunshine State. Consider yourself on your way towards finding your pup. I am providing you with information on the two Puppy Referral Coordinators from the Florida Gulf Coast Golden Retriever Club--they are Natalie and Kristen, and they don't live very far from you. For a breeder to list a litter with that club, the breeder must provide copies of clearances. If you strike out there, post again and I'll give you information on the other club that is next closest to you, Mid-Florida, in Orlando, and then finally Everglades, in South Florida. Good luck!


Natalie Willis
3819 Harrogate Drive
Valrico, FL 33594 
813-643-4237

Kristen Spius
PO Box 94
Morriston, FL 32668
352-528-0539


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