# Food quest: Best health



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I wish there was one clear right answer to give dogs the very best chance of avoiding cancer and keeping autoimmune diseases far away.


You wouldn't be the only one who wants to know that answer.... 

Must admit I'm not really sold on a lot of the grain free foods and uber high protein diets being best for dogs. Too little of one good healthy thing and too much of a good thing can't be good, right? 

The other thing that bothers me a little about some foods is how they aren't very filling for the dog unless you are feeding the huge recommended amounts on the bag. And it does make sense. When my guys go on a hamburger/rice diet sometimes, I usually give the guys 1 cup of rice to every 1/2 cup beef. I know the rice has health benefits too, but it also fills the dog up more than if I just gave them 1 1/2 cups of beef.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Megora said:


> Must admit I'm not really sold on a lot of the grain free foods and uber high protein diets being best for dogs. Too little of one good healthy thing and too much of a good thing can't be good, right?
> 
> The other thing that bothers me a little about some foods is how they aren't very filling for the dog unless you are feeding the huge recommended amounts on the bag. And it does make sense. When my guys go on a hamburger/rice diet sometimes, I usually give the guys 1 cup of rice to every 1/2 cup beef. I know the rice has health benefits too, but it also fills the dog up more than if I just gave them 1 1/2 cups of beef.


I definitely agree with all of this.


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## daisysmam (Sep 5, 2010)

I agree with all of this. I have been researching dog food for months now and my head is spinning with all the contradictory information out there. I ask at the pet store...I ask friends...I ask the vet. Obviously, there is no ONE perfect feeding plan, food, etc. that works for every dog. I guess it all boils down to having the confidence to stick with your choice regardless of what others tell you. That seems to be my problem. Daisy is my first dog and every time someone questions what I am feeding her, I find myself doubting my choices. Frustrating...grrrrr!


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

The holy grail of foods... where are you? Because we're all looking. I go 'round and 'round about foods all of the time. I just bought a large chest freezer, so I could now feed raw if I wanted to. Gibbs loves the Honest Kitchen when I've used some samples as toppers or in a kong. Full blown raw feeding makes me a bit apprehensive for all the reasons you listed. Now I'm waivering. I wish some special food fairy could just float on down and tell me what to do. LOL

My vet and former boss doesn't know much about nutrition. His go to answer is Science Diet. Uhh. The pet food store is so hyped up on grain-free foods that they have lost sight of the big picture and that not all dogs need this type of food. There doesn't seem to be anyone coming to bat for the mid stream foods like Eukanuba and Pro Plan. They all seem to have positives and negatives. I just wish when laid side by side, there was scientific, peer-reviewed evidence (non contradictory) that helped direct us to the best options.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Oh Jill, I know exactly what you're saying. For that very reason, I have our girls on pretty much a rotational (every couple of bags) feeding. Luckily they seem to do well on most foods. Lately they've been on Wellness CORE then Canine Caviar. Cody seems to do well on a very moderate grain inclusive food, and for quite a while has been on the Fromm 4 star duck. I do give them all toppers of The Honest Kitchen, tripe, raw egg, etc.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I've been there - paralysis by analysis.
I've wanted to go raw, but I'm too afraid of it for a number of reasons. I've fed the "premium" foods and was too afraid to go away from them, even though Riley didn't do particularly well on any of them, or didn't do well for very long. 

I started seriously considering ProPlan or Eukanuba when he started not doing well on his Fromm. I figured that the people who swear by these foods know a lot more than I do, and when I hear about (and see) their dogs thriving on these foods... well, they can't be all bad, right?
I looked at them and the Eukanuba ingredient list looked pretty good to me. No fillers, no artificial preservatives, etc. I decided to try it, figuring that I didn't have to make a lifelong committment to this food. If I didn't see results in Riley that made me step back and say "wow", I could always go back to the drawing board.
Well, he's been on the Eukanuba Adult Maintenance for a month now and I am saying "wow." His energy level has increased fairly dramatically, his stools are perfect for a change and his coat has never been so shiny or soft.

I know a lot of people feel that this food (and others like it) are inferior, cheap and basically just horrible stuff to feed your dog, but I'm not buying that. The proof is in the dog. I sort of believe that what you see on the outside is a pretty good indication of what's going on inside. If the food is garbage, he wouldn't be doing so much better on it than he was on the premium stuff.

I don't supplement much, either. He gets the digestive enhancer, his salmon oil and his Cosequin. I don't add fresh foods to his meals. He gets bites of whatever we're eating - veggies, fruits, meat, etc. - but I don't get into adding stuff to his kibble. I figure the food is supposed to be nutritionally balanced and I could probably do more harm than good by messing around with it.

So that's my philosophy for now. Stick with what seems to be working and don't mess around with it.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

I struggle too! I hate getting food. I call my friend and whine every single time.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

It's 'simple'...

Don't feed cheap kibble because it has too many fillers in it and will make your dog sick.
Don't feed middle of the road kibbles because the more expensive stuff is likely better.
Don't feed expensive kibble because it's all hype and no better than the cheap stuff.

Don't feed grain free because it's too high in protein.
Don't feed kibble with grains because it's got grains in it.
Don't feed canned because it'll ruin their teeth and it's mostly water.
Don't feed premade raw because it doesn't do anything to clean their teeth.
Don't feed bones with raw because it'll wreck their teeth. 
Don't forget to supplement because the food on it's own isn't good enough.
Don't supplement because the food should be good enough on it's own.
Don't feed table food because it'll ruin the dog's diet.
Don't omit table food because it's fresh and gives variety.

Instead, feed rocks! 

Really though, I see no major difference in my one kibble/raw dog compared to the two that are on raw. Other than the one on kibble now isn't a walking bag of bones, he's able to keep filled out. Will he have a shortened lifespan because he's getting grain in kibble? Or will he live a bit longer because he's no longer so thin? Ironic as it seems, his breeder way back said she's done it all and has had the best results on the same food that he now gets a bit of each day....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

For me it's ProPlan. I've fed it with great results for close to 20 years. My dogs are healthy, _seriously _healty - rarely seeing a vet for anything other than routine care. They enjoy longevity - _healthy _geriatrics, not just really old dogs. They maintain good weight, great muscle tone, and lovely coats on ProPlan. The only additive I use is Nature's Farmacy Digestive Enhancer - from birth throughout their lifetime. We occasionally add canned tripe or canned ProPlan salmon and rice or chicken - more as a "treat" than anything else, and they do get raw marrow bones monthly - to keep teeth clean, and when they do, I decrease the amount of their regular meals.
It's worked for us for years, and so many others who I respect, that I see no reason to change.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Bender - you forgot the one I hear from my mom all the time.... 

Paraphrased:

Don't feed kibble, because back then dogs lived longer healthier lives eating table scraps. 

My grandma bought kibble for scarce days (when there were no leftovers). The rest of the time she simply scraped food off plates and put it directly into the dog food bowl. The shepherds always lived for 15+ years and the shelties 18+. 

I don't know what to say about the lifespans, but I usually remind my mom that her mother was the same who believed that you never go to the doctor because they always find something wrong with you.  !


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

My guys have never looked better than they do now, and their stools are perfect.

The things we dog owners discuss LOL

They have been on Fromm Duck & Sweet Potato for about 10 months now.

It's expensive (about $52 for a 30# bag), but at this point I have no desire to use anything else.

Milo does get a little "tooty" every now and then, but it's not a big deal. We live with it 

Fromm Duck & Sweet Potato does not pack a bunch of calories like some foods, so you may need to feed more than you are used to. Gilmour eats 4 cups a day (2 cups twice a day) and he maintains perfectly. That would be too much food for many other brands. Milo is on 1 1/3 cups twice a day, but he's on weight loss, and he is very slowly, which is what I want. Once he is fully grown (won't be long now) and his weight is right, he'll probably go to 2 cups twice a day as well.


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Around here, we got Rocks covered !



Bender said:


> It's 'simple'...
> 
> Don't feed cheap kibble because it has too many fillers in it and will make your dog sick.
> Don't feed middle of the road kibbles because the more expensive stuff is likely better.
> ...


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Back when I was a kid, there were far more "Old Dogs In Pickup Trucks" than I seem to see today. I mean _old _dogs.

Back then they got basic Rabies shots and worming IF they needed it. I don't recall them getting much else.

Many ate Purina Dog Chow, got fed from the table all the time, and only went to the Vet when a bone was showing.

I sometimes think we are trying _too _hard.

Here's what I'd like someone to research. Go back through history, and record, by decade, the average loss to Cancer. Somewhere along the line I can't help but think there was a spike. When the spike is found, research very carefully everything that changed during that decade (feeding practices, breeding practices, veterinary care, etc...). I think the answer is there, but I'm not sure enough data was recorded in the old days to make it feasible to find it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Back when I was a kid, there were far more "Old Dogs In Pickup Trucks" than I seem to see today. I mean _old _dogs.
> 
> Back then they got basic Rabies shots and worming IF they needed it. I don't recall them getting much else.
> 
> ...


 
Trying "too hard"... I thoroughly agree with this. I have been "undervaccinating" my dogs for YEARS. Starting with Lyric, other than rabies as required by law, my dogs are _rarely _vaccinated beyond the age of 5, sometimes 7. 
Although I do keep puppy pens very, very clean, I am not anal about neonates not seeing people until they are weeks old - "outside" people begin handling them from birth, they aren't required to go through hazmat procedures, and I take them out in public by 7 weeks of age. I feel this helps them to build immunites. 
I don't change foods just because I think they want a variety - they happily and enthusiastically eat their boring old ProPlan every single meal. 
I don't mess around with vitamins and other supplements as I feel their nutritional needs are being met by the food I feed. 
I'm old, so "old school" makes sense to me.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Bender said:


> It's 'simple'...
> 
> Don't feed cheap kibble because it has too many fillers in it and will make your dog sick.
> Don't feed middle of the road kibbles because the more expensive stuff is likely better.
> ...


I think you nailed the reasons of frustration when folks research ways to feed their dog in a amusing lighthearted manner 

I must now find a bag of only the best organic river rocks (gathered by hand of course) from a clear sparkling mountain stream.

Those cheap "regular" rocks can't be as good.:


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

I seriously couldn't have said it better myself. The minute I feel I have something figured out, I will read something to contradict it. It just gets so confusing and overwhelming. And like you, I only want to do the best I can for my dog and give her the best chance at leading a long and healthy life.
I wavered on kibble, mostly because of ingredients. I hated that kibble basically had to be sprayed with vitamins to be nutritious as the extrusion process harmed a lot of the nutrients already in the food. Moreover, it also has to be sprayed with palatability enhancers so that dogs will eat it. But then again, I can't argue what people like pointgold offer when talking about pro-plan. It does seem to work.

I ended up doing a home-cooked diet for Katie. I tried to model my feeding on a mish-mash of some of the more popular feeding philosophies. I looked at a lot of kibble (more of the tried and true) and analyzed the fatrotien:carb ratios. Then looked at raw feeding and did the same. And I came up somewhere in between.

Like you, I was just too nervous to try completely raw. Even though I know many people that are doing it with great success. And I know they would have helped walk me through it. But, we are in a condo, and Katie can't exactly eat outside and she already has a sensitive stomach, so I was afraid of experimenting too much with her. Also Katie tends to inhale her food, and I was so afraid she would try to do the same with bones. If she had been weaned on raw, it would be completely different, as she would understand how to properly eat a bone. So I knew I would have to begin grinding the bones, and that option seemed like about as much work as home-cooking. So I opted to cook, as it made me feel better on so many levels.

I ended up doing home-cooked based on a what would likely be a traditional type kibble. I have my meat, my grains, my vegetables and my animal fat. That way I knew I was always feeding human-grade meats. And by feeding whole grains that are for human consumption, I feel I am taking aflatoxin (sp??) poisoning out of the equation. I don't do any organic feeding, other than organ meats and some whole grains. I rotate protein sources, grain sources and vegetables/fruits for variety. Always sticking to the same type of ratios.

I find that when I take grains out of the diet, I have to feed a lot more, as she starts to lose too much weight. And when I feed too much protein, Katie is a little loose. So some grain is good (for her, anyway!). And she doesn't get itchy on grains, so I really don't have anything bad to say about them for her. Katie has had a few bouts of colitis in her life, and she needs some of the fiber in grains to help her gut normalize her flora (in addition to a good quality probiotic.) 

Then don't get me started on oils. Some say to avoid flax oil, other sources say it is the best oil. I just use an oil blend and add some additional Omega 3's to try to keep all bases covered.

Truthfully, she does seem to be doing really well. And I like knowing exactly what goes into her food. 

But again, this is all just ME...and what I am most comfortable with. I mean, it does seem that every dog is different. I guess like us. Some of us have intolerances to certain foods (ie. celiac or lactose intolerant) So it makes sense that we can't take a one-food-fits-all approach to feeding our dogs either. Some dogs will thrive on poorer ingredients other won't. Sometimes it seems there is no rhyme of reason to it all.

I would say the best indication of their health is their energy levels, eye clarity, muscle tone and coat condition. 

I also believe genetics play a fairly large role as does exercise. I feel it is critical for a dogs overall health.

I know I haven't really answered your query. I just wanted to share what my thinking was, and what I decided to do at the end. Like you, I was so frustrated and overwhelmed. And while I am not as frustrated today, I do feel pretty overwhelmed too. And I get nervous sometimes taking her feeding into my own hands. But I watch her closely (perhaps obsessively!!)

Again, this isn't for everyone. And can be very impractical when you have more than one dog (like you and many others!) - but it gave me the peace of mind I needed. And for NOW, anyway... I feel good about what I am doing and have stopped going over and over things in my mind!

I wish you luck sorting it out! It does sound like they're doing wonderfully on Eukanuba. 

All the best...and sorry my thoughts are so scattered. When I talk dog food and nutrition, I get so swamped with internal messages that my brain doesn't know how to process my thoughts!

Kim


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GoldenCamper said:


> I think you nailed the reasons of frustration when folks research ways to feed their dog in a amusing lighthearted manner
> 
> I must now find a bag of only the best organic river rocks (gathered by hand of course) from a clear sparkling mountain stream.
> 
> Those cheap "regular" rocks can't be as good.:


 
Well, the rocks that I feed only get one star on most food rating sites, so I dunno...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Does anyone have a method of feeding in which they are 100 percent confident?


I know you and I have discussed this personally on a number of occasions, but I want to jump in the thread. I'm not 100% confident that I feed my dogs the best possible food for them, but I'm 100% satisfied with the results of the food I'm giving them. Rather than switching between foods or stressing myself out, I've had to adapt to the supersaturation of food advice by developing the ability to repress my concerns. Brain judges the information, makes the decision, and gut has to shut up, sit down, and get back to worrying about work instead of dog food.

As far as raw, I know lots of people who have success with it, and more power to 'em, but between my ER vet's personal experience and the Tufts vet school staff's recommendations, it's extremely unlikely that I'll switch over. It would take a pretty significant series of studies showing definitive health benefits.



Ljilly28 said:


> So, my goldens have been thriving on Eukanuba Premium Performance Sporting Dog currently, and they have also done well on Innova in the past and the old formula for Canidae. They always get some kind of (cooked) fresh food with a meal- chicken, yogurt etc. They get Nordic Naturals Wild Salmon Oil, Esther C, and Dasuquin added daily.


For me, the observable health of the dog is the most important piece of information. There's no theory that's more powerful to me than a dog in great health with great muscle mass and coat. Being all-around healthy will do more to prevent cancer than any supplement, and none of the allowed preservatives and additives (even the sketchiest, scariest ones) have a definitive enough effect on cancer to outweigh good weight and good overall health.



Ljilly28 said:


> On Eukanuba, Joplin lived to be 15 1/2, Raleigh lived to be 13, but Acadia died of cancer at 9. Are their lifespans related to their food or mainly genetic? Joplin's pedigree overflows with long-lived dogs but Acadia's dad, Twin Beau D Montego Bay, died pretty young and her mom died at only 7.


And on Eukanuba, Gus died at 6 of cancer. I still feed it because an exhaustive year's research turned up absolutely no credible reason to link his lymphoma to any ingredient in Eukanuba. I think you're right to connect genes to longevity more than food. Certainly a dog fed garbage or overfed is going to have a shorter lifespan, but the difference between two dogs kept in great shape on two different good foods is going to be a product of genes and luck, not the two different foods.



Ljilly28 said:


> I am a little bit afraid of the grain free foods with so, so much protein, and I am also a little bit afraid that there are low quality ingredients in the Eukanuba that might trigger cancers.


I have not been able to find any credible basis whatsoever to suspect that any ingredient in Eukanuba (or any other mainstream dog food) can trigger cancer. A handful of preservatives over the years have been researched and found to increase cancer in large doses, and they're usually pulled. There isn't one now in pet food (except fish-based pet food) that's credibly suspicious. Even organic food hasn't yet been shown to lead to lower cancer rates in people. More research needs to be done, but the first few large-scale studies of people who eat more organic food have not shown a definitive increase in longevity or a reduction in cancer rates. It still may once more work is done, but I mention organic food to help make the point that trace remnants of pesticides and small amounts of time-tested preservatives are very unlikely culprits in most GR cancer.

There's absolutely nothing in chicken byproduct that could possibly be more cancer-causing than what's in chicken meat, and grains tend to concentrate poisons and pesticides _less_ than meat, though I don't see any reason to fear meat simply because of the existence of biomagnification. I don't think, from a purely analytical standpoint, that grain or meat byproduct (as defined by the AAFCO) is a "poorer quality" ingredient than potato and muscle meat. They have different nutritional content, but one isn't empirically better than the other, even though as humans we typically prefer muscle meat to organ meat.

I do have some concerns about imported ingredients, since China has had such a poor track record of quality control. Hopefully the new powers granted to the FDA will improve the quality of imported food.

Low quality or cheaper foods might use simpler carbs, cheaper fats, and all kinds of gross stuff, but gross stuff doesn't cause cancer any more than more palatable stuff does. If the cheaper fat or the simpler carbs lead to weight gain or other poor health in the dog, you'd see it, and you'd know whether it was worse for your dogs. If the dog looks great, the ingredients aren't crap.



Ljilly28 said:


> I wish there was one clear right answer to give dogs the very best chance of avoiding cancer and keeping autoimmune diseases far away.


I don't think there will be for quite a while. Cancer is simply not well understood, and different cancers can have vastly different causes and triggers. In order to preserve my sanity, I've had to choose a good feeding plan, evaluate it with my vet, see what it does for my dogs, and then stop trying to fix what isn't broken.

Until somebody does larger scale studies that show raw-fed dogs or dogs on a particular kind of food have provably greater longevity, I'm not going to stress myself out about changing over to a more popular or less popular feeding regimen.

And I've had this thought for a while but haven't said it: in all these discussions about food and cancer, I don't think I've once seen people discuss plastic dog food bowls and the plastics in the packaging of dog food bag and raw food containers. Personally, I think the hype over BPA is overblown (e.g., I didn't throw out my old Nalgenes), but if people are going to make themselves crazy over every milligram of a bugaboo ingredient, why aren't they railing against the fact that their dog's water sits in a polycarbonate bowl all day, leaching chemicals?

You can make yourself crazy if you let your brain obsess.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> My guys have never looked better than they do now, and their stools are perfect.
> 
> The things we dog owners discuss LOL
> 
> ...


 
and our experience with Fromm Duck and Sweet Potato was an absolute total disaster...


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Toby has his semi-annual veterinary check up tomorrow. We are seeing one of the other vets while his regular vet is on maternity leave. I'm interested in getting her perspective on nutrition because of all the concerns mentioned above. Like many vets the clinic highly recommends Hills and Science Diet. When I pressed Toby's first vet it was because several of the vets had been to the manufacturing plant and saw the process first hand and visited with the dogs they keep to test and monitor. Toby was on Pro Plan at the time and having issues digesting it. His regular vet's answer to those issues was switch to Hills...no thanks. 

What I want is a referral to an independent canine nutritionist with a DVM in my area that I can sit down one on one, complete with Toby's labs and test results and find the perfect balance for him, given his thyroid and hypertension issues.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Anne, I'll be really interested to hear what you find. IS there such a vet/nutritionist in our area (state)? One thing that rings true, being able to share with all the GRF community, is that there sure isn't any one food that works for all.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Anne, I'll be really interested to hear what you find. IS there such a vet/nutritionist in our area (state)? One thing that rings true, being able to share with all the GRF community, is that there sure isn't any one food that works for all.


Barkley's acupuncture vet suggested I go do a consult at Abrams/Royal compounding pharmacy. I emailed the nutritionist and he isn't a canine nutritionist. He also did not know of one in the Dallas area. I don't understand why the big referral centers like DVSC don't have one on hand--they would be very busy indeed! There isn't one food that works for all, just as is the case with humans, but my hope/prayer is to find someone with the scientific knowledge and training with canines and canine health and who isn't tied to Hills, then be able to sit down one on one, with lab work and health history in hand, and formulate a good plan to try, based on the dog's individual needs. :crossfing

I'm actually in contact now with the consumer affairs department of the dog food company we are currently using....it's easier to talk to a governmental agency like the IRS than to get good information from the dog food companies. They are so secretive!


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm actually in contact now with the consumer affairs department of the dog food company we are currently using....it's easier to talk to a governmental agency like the IRS than to get good information from the dog food companies. They are so secretive![/QUOTE]


HHMMMM, seems I read this in a book not too long ago too.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

One serious idea if you don't turn up anything around here. Perhaps a phone (skype?) consult with Dr Wynn that has the sticky in the nutrition section. She is a DVM and nutritionist.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I will consider Dr. Wynn, since the vet we are seeing tomorrow actually sent me an email from her previously on Dr. Wynn's comments about the *non-*benefits of coconut oil for dogs.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

www.petdiets.com
Certified veterinary nutritionist. One of only about 30 in the country.


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## jwemt81 (Aug 20, 2008)

I totally get your frustration. We have been feeding our Goldens Fromm Duck & Sweet Potato for about 8 or 9 months now and they have done very well on it, EXCEPT we cannot keep weight on them at all. We have even upped the amount of food they get from 2-1/2 cups a day to 4 cups a day and we still can't get any weight on them, especially since our dogs are pretty active. It's even more frustrating because the Fromm Duck & Sweet Potato is the only formula that we can buy locally. The one pet supply store here that used to carry several different Fromm formulas has gone out of business and the only other place around here that sells Fromm is a local boarding kennel, and they only carry the duck formula, so if we want to continue feeding Fromm, we're pretty much stuck with that, unless of course we want to buy it online, but we would much prefer to just be able to buy it locally. I just don't know what to do at this point. I don't like how thin Tucker looks and Tyson could easily afford to put on a couple of pounds. However, the boys LOVE the Fromm and I have never seen them get so excited about food before, and their coats are great and stools are perfect, but we are blowing through food like crazy feeding them both 4 cups a day and they're still not putting any weight on. It's just mind boggling.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

I feel like I've been around the ringer a few times in my hunt for a good dog food for Ranger...and I haven't even owned him for a year. He was itchy on Iams, so I suspected allergies and made the switch to grain-free, fish based Orijen. Ranger thrived on it until they did a minor formula change a few months later and then he lost the sheen to his coat, lost energy and gained the worst gas I've ever had the displeasure of smelling. I needed a gas mask when he was on my bed at night.

Since he was doing well (up to that point) on grain-free, I made the leap to EVO. Ranger loved the food, was doing incredibly well on it and he'd still be on it today if I hadn't partially detached my achilles tendon, cutting our exercise/walk time down to nothing. Ranger got too fat, even on 1.5 cup a day so I had to switch. Decided that he had fared poorly on Iams because it was "low quality with bad ingredients", blah blah blah and that it wasn't necessarily allergies. I bought Acana Light and Fit (not grain-free) and while Ranger lost weight, he started throwing up, skin condition was awful, was lethargic, and then he finally threw up pieces of whole, undigested kibble - almost SEVEN hours after his last meal. 

That's when I discovered it wasn't that Iams was garbage (since Ranger had the same reaction, if not worse, on Acana which is generally considered to be a top-notch brand) but a grain intolerance. I was searching high and low for a low calorie, grain-free kibble. I found one (Wellness Core reduced fat) but the stores nearby didn't carry it. 

I gave up on kibble and switched to raw and haven't looked back. Ranger doesn't do well on grains so I don't add them to his raw diet and he follows a strict prey method model with a few carrots here and there. He has never looked this good or been this healthy. He's energetic, tons of stamina, coat and skin in great condition, bright eyes, and no ear infections since I made the switch. On kibble, even grain-free, i had to clean his ears once a week or they'd get red and hot. I clean them maybe once a month now and haven't had a single issue.

I know raw has its dangers and it's a big step in responsibility to be SO responsible for your dog's health...but I find it satisfying and once you know the rules and ratios, it's incredibly easy to feed. If Ranger was less of a thorough chewer and more of a messy eater, I don't think I'd be feeding raw since I'd be worried about choke or pieces of raw meat clinging to him. I'm lucky he's so easy to feed but even so, I always supervise his eating as a "just in case" and there are some items that don't come back on the menu (beef necks or tendons) for safety's sake.

I think in general, you have to do whatever is best for your dog's health and safety, and then hope for the best. I know no matter what I feed Ranger, I'm always going to keep him on the lean side since leaner dogs (and humans) generally have a longer life-span.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

The vets don't even know.

My vet was very impressed by Brady on his 4 year exam - the first exam with her. She said his teeth and physique were equivilent to an 18 month old. The second thing she asked was what we fed him, and she said she wanted to track that as he ages. He has been on Wellness Core for the last 2 + years, and was on Canidae 4 Stage old formula before that.

My problem is I spend all this money on a good grain free food, and my husband insists on sharing all his meals with the dogs!


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

Jill, if your confused, and i am one that just looks up to you, your dogs are beautifull, god help the rest of us, i am sure you know alot, when it comes to anything about goldens.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> www.petdiets.com
> Certified veterinary nutritionist. One of only about 30 in the country.


YES!! Thank you! If the vet we see tomorrow doesn't have a Dallas nutritionist in mind I'll definitely look into this. I believe it's $250 for the first dog and I want them to work through my veterinarian. We'll see how this plays out. I insist the nutritionist does not consider themselves "holistic" only or "big dog food manufacturer proponent"--I want them independent and based on science.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks so much for this incredible thread! I just checked back in with it, and found all these thoughtful responses with so much common ground. It makes me feel better, for sure. One thing I can pinpoint that fuels my anxiety is how glossy and bright-eyed dogs can seem just weeks before hemangiosarcoma hits. I know that tolerating the mystery is all that can be done once we've done our best with food, weight, and environment


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

My thoughts ...

Contrary to what the pet food industry is trying to brainwash us into believing ... there's no such thing as the perfect/complete formula.
( Just like there wouldn't be for humans ). 
And no species was intended to eat the exact same thing, day in, day out, their whole entire life. 
Even the best of kibble/can is processed & feeding or mixing in real food can only benefit my pet. 

Do we worry too much ? 
Maybe so ... but we also shouldn't have to spend endless hours trying to decipher ingredients & labelling ... thanks to FDA, AAFCO, Petfood industry, labelling laws, etc. 
So yes, discussions are important & as consumers we have to try & stay on top of it all.

As for cancer prevention & causes ... 
I TOTALLY disagree with Tippykayak.
Why anyone would "endorse" artificial preservatives, additives ... and put down "organic" ... is beyond me. 
It seems only 5-10% of cancers are hereditary. 
I witnessed supplements & nutrition make a huge difference in human cancer episodes. 
There is plenty research / studies linking food additives/preservatives to cancer, and no, the hype over BPA is NOT overblown .http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-s-epstein/presidents-cancer-panel-w_b_566541.html. 


"Obviously genetics does have some influence on health, but while your heredity may tilt you towards an illness, rarely is it enough alone to condemn you. It usually just means you have less room for error ... It's environment factors like nutrition, exercise, proper sleep, reducing toxin intake that have the greatest impact on health.The choices you make matter."


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Back from our veterinary visit. There are no local "independent" nutritionists in Dallas . This vet offered to check into the food we are using for Toby now vs. the old Hills stuff, based on his specific health issues (thyroid, gastro/soft poos, heart/blood pressure) and age and get back to me. She will also address my questions to her about his protein needs. My guess is the Hills HD will be strongly recommended to me...:yuck: From there I might seek the nutritional consultation with one of the independent nutritionists on the link furnished by Barb. Basically, I'm still confused.

This vet helped us so much with Barkley's nosebleeds during his hemangiosarcoma battle, and she is well aware of my concern for Toby and that horrific disease. We need to do a follow up echo on Toby and she also suggested we do another abdominal at the same time...she knew this would ease my mind! She also did a rectal on him to ease my mind on that (Barkley had an anal growth during his last months). While we'll never know if diet contributes to diseases like hemangiosarcoma, I feel a little better knowing we are at least being proactive with semi annual exams with lab work/rectal exam and sonograms..we might be fortunate to catch something early on, but hopefully nothing is going on with him.

Jill, you are right, they really are bright eyed and then hemangio strikes out of the blue. In the 2 weeks before Barkley's diagnosis DH and I were amazed at how energetic, happy and alert he was...then.... bam...it hit and our lives changed. It's hard to believe the anniversary of his diagnosis is next week.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Actually, there are many species that only eat one food. Cows, panda, koala, many fish and whales...

I think that when looking at foods one cannot overlook the fact that there are breeders who have been feeding multiple dogs from many generations, the same food (ie Pro Plan) and have had excellent results. That might suggest that genetics are indeed a factor, or, it could mean that the food is actually good. 

I really don't feel that that the pet food industry is trying to "brainwash" us, but it is a business, and businesses do need to market their products. Honestly, I feel that the "big food" companies such as Iams, and Purina/Pro Plan, do a decent job in that they are promoting their formulas in a pretty straightforward manner. Unlike some of the "holistic"/"natural"/"organic" foods that spend quite a bit of time telling us why Iams andPurina/Pro Plan are horrible. THAT feels more like "brainwashing" to me. 

I'm very pleased with the overall health and longevity that I've had with my dogs - with diverse pedigrees, mind you - being fed the kibble that I have chosen and fed for close to 20 years.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

T&T said:


> As for cancer prevention & causes ...]
> I TOTALLY disagree with Tippykayak.


I'm not surprised. 



T&T said:


> Why anyone would "endorse" artificial preservatives, additives ... and put down "organic" ... is beyond me.


Now, let's be fair. I did neither of those things. I was surprised to learn that eating organic doesn't have more dramatic, obvious benefits, but as of right now, it doesn't look like it. I said twice in that post that the research was too incomplete to be even remotely conclusive either way. I still buy organic whenever it's cost effective for a number of reasons, mainly because pesticides cause problems far beyond showing up in food.

I also didn't endorse artificial preservatives, just pointed out that the ones that are approved for use in foods are extensively studied and do not have a large, observable effect on cancer rates.



T&T said:


> It seems only 5-10% of cancers are hereditary.


Of types or instances? Where did you get this stat? Given the rates of osteosarcoma in large breed dogs, I don't think it's safe to say that 90% of the cases are caused by environment and only 10% by heredity. 



T&T said:


> There is plenty research / studies linking food additives/preservatives to cancer, and no, the hype over BPA is NOT overblown .http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-s-epstein/presidents-cancer-panel-w_b_566541.html


"Overblown" is a word open to wide interpretation. What I meant by it is that I think the outcry over BPA is greater than the evidence really warrants, but that's sort of a judgment call and also strongly based on my personal perception of media coverage. Even the article you linked calls it a "chemical of concern." It's not a confirmed carcinogen, and the evidence linking it to cancer is currently quite thin.

The evidence that pregnant women and young children shouldn't be exposed to high levels of BPA is much stronger.

And if you believe it's a huge problem, why aren't we talking about plastic and dogs? 



T&T said:


> Obviously genetics does have some influence on health, but while your heredity may tilt you towards an illness, rarely is it enough alone to condemn you. It usually just means you have less room for error ... It's environment factors like nutrition, exercise, proper sleep, reducing toxin intake that have the greatest impact on health.The choices you make matter."


I agree that choices matter and that cancers aren't purely hereditary, but I do not agree that dog food A vs. dog food B offers any dramatic reduction in the chances of cancer.


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## msdogs1976 (Dec 21, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I really don't feel that that the pet food industry is trying to "brainwash" us, but it is a business, and businesses do need to market their products. Honestly, I feel that the "big food" companies such as Iams, and Purina/Pro Plan, do a decent job in that they are promoting their formulas in a pretty straightforward manner. Unlike some of the "holistic"/"natural"/"organic" foods that spend quite a bit of time telling us why Iams andPurina/Pro Plan are horrible. THAT feels more like "brainwashing" to me.


Amen..........


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I really don't feel that that the pet food industry is trying to "brainwash" us, but it is a business, and businesses do need to market their products. Honestly, I feel that the "big food" companies such as Iams, and Purina/Pro Plan, do a decent job in that they are promoting their formulas in a pretty straightforward manner. Unlike some of the "holistic"/"natural"/"organic" foods that spend quite a bit of time telling us why Iams andPurina/Pro Plan are horrible. THAT feels more like "brainwashing" to me.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I agree and that seems to be the prevalent attitude among the veterinarians I've spoken with at the clinic we patronize, including the vet we saw today. She is in the Hills camp and believes it hasn't done a good enough job marketing the science behind it's product to the ultimate purchaser-the pet owner and feels many of these "holistic/organic/natural" manufacturers actually do spend the majority of their advertising on telling us what is wrong with the big companies, not on the science and research behind their product, if there is any research behind it...too often there isn't, or if there is, they don't share it with veterinarians and the public.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

No, I don't feel a 100% confident in my food choice. I do think as has been mentioned too much thought can go into this. I feed TOTW but have fed ProPlan and would go back to it and sometimes still think about it (PG makes me consider it again). I have also considered raw but do not want to put the time effort and money into it right now to do it right.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I love the phrase "paralysis by analysis" - it's perfect.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Dallas Gold said:


> Jill, you are right, they really are bright eyed and then hemangio strikes out of the blue. In the 2 weeks before Barkley's diagnosis DH and I were amazed at how energetic, happy and alert he was...then.... bam...it hit and our lives changed. It's hard to believe the anniversary of his diagnosis is next week.


Thinking of Barkely! 

When I remember back, my golden who lived so long, well into his 15th year, not only ate Eukanuba but hiked on a golf course nearly every day both when we lived in Indiana and urban CT, and carried those five extra pounds after I stopped running five miles a day. It seems like a lottery.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I love the phrase "paralysis by analysis" - it's perfect.


It is, isn't it? And it doesn't take long to get there! There's just so much information out there (good and bad) and so many different opinions, you can drive yourself crazy trying to make sense of it.

I doubt that I'll ever have complete confidence in what I'm feeding Riley. I'm seeing great results with the Eukanuba, but just today I got my January WDJ and noticed that there's an article about the best books for home-cooked, bone-free diets and another article about prepared raw. Right away, I thought "Well, what about this? I wonder if one of these options would be better...?" 
It's times like this when I need to tell that paranoid little voice inside my head to shut up! I think it comes down to the old philosophy - find a food that works for your dog(s) and stick with it. Honestly, I believe that's the best we can do. If someone would come out with a valid study showing that a particular food really does prevent, or reduces the risk of cancer or other serious illness, I'd switch yesterday. But for now, I just have to go by what I can see, hope and pray for the best and TRY not to obsess.


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> Does anyone have a method of feeding in which they are 100 percent confident?
> 
> I am going crazy over all the contradictory advice and research out there. Adding fresh food to kibble unbalances it/ adding fresh food to kibble helps ensure dogs get variety and accessible nutrition; Raw feeding is the most natural way of feeding a dog; raw feeding can cause exotic diseases, nutritional deficits, blockages, broken teeth; Pro Plan and Eukanuba's top of the lines are time-tested and well-researched/ the big companies cut corners and use inferior by-products. . . Research just makes me more confused.
> 
> ...


For years I struggled with the exact same issues you note above. What _is _the right thing to do? There are so many contradictions and varied theories. What it came down to for me is what my dog did best on and that was raw food. Quite a few times I have gone back to kibble and still do for a once a day meal if things get hectic and when I do this, she always ends up with gunky ears and yeast, bad breath and gains too much weight. Repeatedly I have seen my dog be happier, healthier, have more energy and better able to maintain her weight when fed raw. So, I think the right answer is that you need to experiment with the various options and stick to whatever your dog does best on and what works for the two of you.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

What I read a lot here, and do not understand, is that there are many whose dogs are doing fine on a particular food, and then, they either read or someone tells them, that the food they are feeding isn't great, or that there is "something better". So, the frequent food switching and second guessing is on...
If your dog is doing well on something, even if it is road gravel, don't mess with it. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" goes a long way...
There's always going to be "something better" or someone who says your food is crap. Stick with what is working for YOUR dog.

*And, if your dog is having frequent ear infections, skin and coat problems, hot spots... have a complete thyroid panel run.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> What I read a lot here, and do not understand, is that there are many whose dogs are doing fine on a particular food, and then, they either read or someone tells them, that the food they are feeding isn't great, or that there is "something better". So, the frequent food switching and second guessing is on...
> If your dog is doing well on something, even if it is road gravel, don't mess with it. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" goes a long way...
> There's always going to be "something better" or someone who says your food is crap. Stick with what is working for YOUR dog.
> 
> *And, if your dog is having frequent ear infections, skin and coat problems, hot spots... have a complete thyroid panel run.


 

What she said! :dblthumb2


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> What I read a lot here, and do not understand, is that there are many whose dogs are doing fine on a particular food, and then, they either read or someone tells them, that the food they are feeding isn't great, or that there is "something better". So, the frequent food switching and second guessing is on...
> If your dog is doing well on something, even if it is road gravel, don't mess with it. "If it ain't broke don't fix it" goes a long way...
> There's always going to be "something better" or someone who says your food is crap. Stick with what is working for YOUR dog.
> 
> *And, if your dog is having frequent ear infections, skin and coat problems, hot spots... have a complete thyroid panel run.


*coughs* That's why I'm using the same brand I used with my previous goldens for many years. The only problem I have with this kibble is that it can be fattening (especially if you have a normal family pet who gets milkbones and supper handouts every day). 

^ That's why I mix in a little bit of lower fat food per meal. My guy gets the same amount of food and is satisfied with it, but it's fewer calories. And I don't stick with one brand. I've mainly used Wellness Core and Wellness Super5 Mix, but I've tried other things. I only buy a 5 pound bag of extra food at a time. 

Which reminds me - 

Laura, thought you'd have a smile to know this past month I tried out the Pro Plan Sensitive Skin formula. I thought it might help Jacks since we have the furnace running and he usually gets a little itchy from the dry skin. I haven't noticed anything different about him, but he loved the taste of the kibble even though it looked and smelled like our cat's food.


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