# Looking for female golden!



## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I'm looking for an adult female golden. Prefer around 1 yr or older. Must be registered with at least parents clearances. Must have good bloodlines and full registration. I am open to English and american. I am very fond of the caramel color show coats. Disposition is very important as I am looking to raise school and some public therapy dogs. This baby will be in our house not in a kennel. We have one other neutered male who is in training! We are in kansas so of you are to far away might need to meet .


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

You may want to contact your local Golden Retriever Club, they may be able to tell you if there are any adults available. 

https://www.grca.org/

The forum members can give you Breeder referrals but they will not be able to post any available dogs due to the Forum Rules.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

This is a near impossible bill to fill. 

Breeders generally are not going to let nice older girls leave their homes. There is not enough money under the sun to consider selling any of my own show/breeding or puppy prospects. No one I know would do that either. 

Add to that if you are not a known dog person with some friends and credentials, most breeders won't sell a puppy with full registration and if they do it is rarely and likely with a co-ownership. 

Based on your post I am thinking you also want to breed. We need more good breeders and you insistents on health testing and good blood lines indicate you could be the kind of person to do a good job of it. 

I would suggest moving away from postings of this type for any random 1year old girl. Instead in your area get involved preferably in your local kennel club. Go to shows. When you see dogs you like, meet their owners. Look for a mentor. Someone who can help you understand what the health of the lines your looking at actually is. Remember there are no perfect lines everyone has health issues but a mentor can share that with you and help you research to find the best possible pairings. 

Breeding well is not easy, cheap or immediately gratifying. It can be heart breaking and a very rewarding experience. To do it well is a passion and best when experienced breeders can guide you. You can rely on their experience and advice to skip learning things the hard way and get a real jump on success. 

Getting active with your current dog in a competitive event like obedience will also help you find potential mentors and shows breeder's you are serious about learning. 

Incase you are not familiar with the health certifications here is a Infographic that may help. Also a couple of screen shots.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

*so funny, I wrote this right after you posed the query and didn't hit submit. I see now that everyone else has pretty much said what I did but I will post it anyway*


I am reading into it that you want to start a breeding program for community service type dogs.
You will need a girl whose pedigree has good health, longevity, and temperament, and you will need to breed her carefully. 
I can't imagine someone being willing to sell a young bitch like that on full registration to you, though. Serious breeders breed mostly for themselves, and they have sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars in their pedigrees- so they guard them carefully. I'd think that you would be better off putting off the head start and get a puppy, start classes, join the clubs in your area, and that will help too with your stud dog choices since you will have history and references. Stud dog owners are also careful who they trust with genes. Your intent to breed this puppy in the future- you should ask when you are making inquiry on a litter whether full registration is offered. If the answer is no, and it is a good pedigree for your future intent, ask if you can contractually have a change to full specified after you get clearances and a title of a mutually agreeable level. Personally, I think 4 points on the VC is a good starting place. And I think if you would be willing to do the title and clearances, before your bitch is breedable w AKC reg, then that gives you some good faith effort to bank on. If when you ask if full is offered you are told full costs more, but that you can have it no strings, you are not dealing w a good breeder in my view.Strings protect the breed..


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Yeah, I'm with the others, but not as encouraging. I can't see any reputable breeder selling you a breeding bitch based on what you said. In fact, your post is all red flags. If you're willing to do the things that Laura and Robin said, then _maybe_ you'll find someone, eventually, but more likely a puppy than a washed-out junior or adult that you can breed right away (I'm taking from your post that you'd breed a one-year old).

You're going to have to convince someone that you are serious about breeding and raising therapy dogs, that you have a plan and experience, and that you're not just someone looking for a dog you can breed. Lots of puppy mills in Kansas. That might be your best bet.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Very good advice. Thank you all. To answer some of your questions. No, I would never breed at 1 yrs old. I know there is some testing I can do at 1 . Yes, I would be looking at breeding the dog at some point but it will take some time to grow into that. My main reason for breeding my own is what I'm doing with training. Yes, there are a lot of back yard breeders. I've found plenty of them expecially in Kansas and the surrounding areas. I do not want a dog from them. I am very open to a pup but finding a little older dog would jump start the training process. I do not have a kennel. She would be a family dog and help children. I would love to find a mentor. I've asked for assistance from a few breeders and didn't have much luck. I don't have a lot of information on bloodlines. I understand breeders being reluctant with a " newbie" coming in. I would like to see them embrace a person trying to learn instead of beinng protective and seeing red flags. You get experiance by asking and learning. Although I have not bred dogs for a long time I'm not totally new to it. I have never bred goldens and want to learn. I have a lot of animal experiance but would love to learn more from anyone willing to teach!


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Oh and thank you for the links! I also appologize for making a post that I shouldn't of. I would be happy to start another post and ask for a breeding mentor!! I'm looking forward to this adventure and any help I can get. I love this breed and have seen first hand how amazing these dogs are!! If I would of known they were this amazing I would of done this year's ago!!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> Very good advice. Thank you all. To answer some of your questions. No, I would never breed at 1 yrs old. I know there is some testing I can do at 1 . Yes, I would be looking at breeding the dog at some point but it will take some time to grow into that. My main reason for breeding my own is what I'm doing with training. Yes, there are a lot of back yard breeders. I've found plenty of them expecially in Kansas and the surrounding areas. I do not want a dog from them. I am very open to a pup but finding a little older dog would jump start the training process. I do not have a kennel. She would be a family dog and help children. I would love to find a mentor. I've asked for assistance from a few breeders and didn't have much luck. I don't have a lot of information on bloodlines. I understand breeders being reluctant with a " newbie" coming in. I would like to see them embrace a person trying to learn instead of beinng protective and seeing red flags. You get experiance by asking and learning. Although I have not bred dogs for a long time I'm not totally new to it. I have never bred goldens and want to learn. I have a lot of animal experiance but would love to learn more from anyone willing to teach!


Goldens are really not a very good practice breed- it would take a certain kind of mind to absorb the minutia you would need to to get to a place that is knowledgeable. And you too would be very protective of your pedigree if you had as much love, energy, thought and money in it.... breeders don't typically look at a newbie and think, 'oh, I will help them learn' because there isn't one of us who hasn't tried that at least once and been disappointed. It is a shame, because we DO need breeders who do it right. Hard place to be, because I personally don't want the be the pedigree the newbie learns on. It reflects on me. I've been doing this since the late 70's and I can tell you- I have sold 5 bitches on full with contracts to achieve. I've sold 3 on limited who later requested a change. Of the 5 I sold on full originally, 2 of them never bred and never achieved. 2 of them did a bang up job (but they were both experienced in the breed) and one the jury is out still- she's gotten a CD. And bred a litter. Of the ones who asked for a change to full AFTER getting a CD or JH, one bred a litter and worked from that and has built a nice program. The other never bred her bitch.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I'm feeling discouraged after writing this post. I was so excited when I found this forum. I am feeling like if you don't have experiance or a name made for yourself you are an outsider, reminds me of the horse world .Not one person has offered to visit with me. All i have heard is if i spend years trying to know people i mght find some assistance. I am not throwing red flags or trying to step on anyone's toes.. I respect old timers and their knowledge. This is not a test breed for me.would any breed really be good as a test breed? I have a special needs child and have seen these dogs first hand help her and other children. If someone came to me asking for some advice with their child I would help in every way I could to save them years of testing and heartache. I would share what worked for me and what didnt and they can take what they want from me and leave behind what they dont. I'm going to breed one liter a year and alternate between bitches. I am wanting to raise assistance dogs and raise them as healthy as i possily can. I don't want to put 1 to 2 years of training into a dog and find out that because I didn't start right I now have a dog with health issues. I appreciate the ones that want to protect their hard work. If you would like to help me i would appreciate hearing from you. Thank you!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I think your cause is noble and needed. Two things are going on: first is that breeders have heard such enthusiasm many times only to find that rarely does anyone ever do it right; and second, it's not as easy as you think. Would you rewire your neighbor's house without years of training? Perform a root canal? Write a book in Mandarin? Sometimes, when you have zero knowledge about a thing, it looks a lot simpler than it is. I think that's the case with dog breeding. There is actually a pretty gigantic learning curve. It's like going down a rabbit hole: it looks straightforward from the surface, but gets more complicated, more bizarre, and more requiring of expertise, intuition and judgment the farther down you go.

Let's say you're considering breeding your bitch. The stud you're considering is an ICT carrier but not affected. Can you breed to him?

Or let's say that the great-grandsire of your proposed stud (who is also the great-great-grandsire to your bitch) died at 6 years old and you don't know from what, but your stud's sire lived to 15. Will breeding to him create long-lived puppies, or short-lived? (The answer is incredibly complicated.)

Your proposed stud, Henry, is an incredible therapy dog. He's the product of Charlie (sire) and Chelsea (dam). When Charlie was bred to Clara (a different female), 4 out of 8 puppies from that litter had hip or elbow dysplasia. But Henry was from a different dam. Is it safe for you to breed to this dog?

You have a breeding you're considering. The 10-generation Coefficient of Inbreeding is 7.2, but Hank (a popular sire who died 25 years ago) is the most influential dog at 3.9%. A longtime breeder tells you that she believes she can track her line's PU back to Hank, and she's not the only one who says that. But your girl has no PU in her background (that you know of). Is this a safe breeding for you? What if the breeding had a COI of 18% but Hank was robust and healthy and lived to 16 years old with no PU, cancer or other health issues?

You've researched dozens of potential breedings and have narrowed it down to four. But of those four, in one Hemangiosarcoma is present on both sides, but most of the dogs lived a long time and were otherwise healthy. In the second, there are several missing elbow clearances in get from your stud's siblings, but none in your stud's get. In the third, the pedigree looks pretty good, but the stud is one of the most popular sires in the country (is this a good thing or a bad thing?). And in the fourth, you're satisfied with everything in the pedigree, but there are several intelligent (good), bulletproof (good) and excellent learning (good) but high energy (bad) dogs in the stud's pedigree, and you're breeding therapy dogs. Which breeding should you do?

And you just want someone to sell you a breeding female so you can breed to a boy with the four core clearances.

It's like giving the keys to a car to a three-year old. Breeders understand that you need the equivalent of a college education. It's pretty alarming when people say they just want to get a dog and start breeding. I saw one lady (from Kansas) who recently posted in another forum that she wanted to buy a Golden to breed to Korgis for therapy dogs. Yikes.

If you are truly interested, you might want to start by clicking here to give you an introduction to breeding. It's also a good resource for knowledgeable people and sources of puppies.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Trust me we really do get your frustration. We wish it was different too. It would be such a lovely world if everyone came to us telling us how interested they were, how they want to do it right, that yes they would take advice from experts and make ethical choices was really going to follow through but as Robin pointed out the number of times that happens is minuscule. Almost all breeders have been burned or their good friends have. Asking for advice is one thing, asking to be give custody is another. When we are taking about lives, it is just so hard to take the risk. 

Take some time to read this thread
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...65-how-does-one-become-reputable-breeder.html
_This is exactly what is happening all the time._ Perhaps it will be easier to understand why you will face challenge in getting to your goal. If you can flourish in the mist of challenges which I am thinking you can, it is possible. It just is not easy.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

My opinion. I see it as you are not on the same page for goals as a responsible breeder. They are all about their individual dogs, that they end up having happy, healthy lives, whether it is as a pet, a champion, a hunting dog, a therapy dog or an assistant dog. Their wider goals are about preserving and bettering the breed.

Your goals are to find quality dogs and use them to help children. You are about the children.

Different goals / different focus.

Questions you would need to answer for yourself and give to those breeders you want to help you.

How many service dogs have you trained?
How long have you been doing it?
What are your own credentials, training in the field of dog training? Who have you studied with? How long have you been doing so?

I don't want you to answer these questions here but to build a resume for those breeders you want to help you.

If you haven't trained/worked in this field and have the experiences and successes why would a good breeder risk their dogs since they want the very best for them?

Have you worked with any of the programs out there that already train service dogs?

Many of them have programs that you can volunteer for and this would be a great way for you to be mentored which would take you in the direction you want to go which is to help the children.

You are right that you want a dog that has had the best opportunities before birth and after which leads you in the direction of a responsible breeder but the other componet which is just as important is someone that has the experience and training to teach the dog as environment is just as important as genetics. A very good dog can be ruined by a person that doesn't have the knowledge to train the dog.

Don't give up you have awesome goals. Just realize your dreams and goals may take more time than you first expected. Good luck.

There are good responsible breeders that do donate and sell great dogs but it is to volunteer groups that have a track record and experience in this venue.

You say you have a golden, I would love to learn all about your journey of love with him on another post.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Dana, 
I see you have a college education in goldens. Your knowledge is appreciated. I understand fully what you are saying and you asked some very in depth questions to consider. That is why finding someone with knowledge like yours would be so helpful. I can see why long time, reputable breeders are protective of their experience and bloodlines. 
I know this will require work and dedication. We all have to start somewhere. I just want to get a decent start. 
I do appreciate everyone's concerns and suggestions even if I don't agree with all of them. 
I really would just like to find some good breeders who might have what I am asking for and a mentor to help me get started. I am an open book , and im like a sponge, willing to learn. I am open to suggestions.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

SueD said:


> Dana,
> I see you have a college education in goldens. Your knowledge is appreciated. I understand fully what you are saying and you asked some very in depth questions to consider. That is why finding someone with knowledge like yours would be so helpful. I can see why long time, reputable breeders are protective of their experience and bloodlines.


The thing is, I just bred my first litter from my own bitch. (In fact, just after I hit "post," I found out that my bitch is pregnant! Wohoo!) But I have studied this stuff for several years before trying it. And I still feel like I know next to nothing. It took me several years of being active in Goldens to get a good breeder to trust me with a quality breeding bitch. So, I've been where you are. I've had your conundrum. And I didn't find any shortcuts. It took me several years of study, courses in population genetics, mentoring from longtime breeders and deep diving into pedigrees. Indeed, one of the hypotheticals I gave you was one I recently faced.

It's one of those things where the less you know, the easier it seems. And the more you know, the less you realize you know.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> Dana,
> I see you have a college education in goldens. Your knowledge is appreciated. I understand fully what you are saying and you asked some very in depth questions to consider. That is why finding someone with knowledge like yours would be so helpful. I can see why long time, reputable breeders are protective of their experience and bloodlines.
> I know this will require work and dedication. We all have to start somewhere. I just want to get a decent start.
> I do appreciate everyone's concerns and suggestions even if I don't agree with all of them.
> I really would just like to find some good breeders who might have what I am asking for and a mentor to help me get started. I am an open book , and im like a sponge, willing to learn. I am open to suggestions.


I hope you don't think I was being discouraging or putting you down. The truth is, you have actually gotten some great advice from members here, with very little negative feedback other than the truthful fact of Goldens not being a great breed to just start breeding. 
I offered a suggestion to you to go about this in the typical way, which is to go to events, find humans to connect with, and don't just grab the first person you find who's willing. Often that will be another newbie who really does not have the in-depth knowledge either. Your goals are admirable, but as Solvictus said, they are not the same as those of a reputable breeder. However, if you were to make a venn diagram there WOULD be an area of commonality and that is where you should start. 
You will never get a great foundation advertising for a yearling or started bitch- it's like building on sand. It may hold the building for a few years but eventually it will eat the building.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> T
> Take some time to read this thread
> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...65-how-does-one-become-reputable-breeder.html
> _This is exactly what is happening all the time._ Perhaps it will be easier to understand why you will face challenge in getting to your goal. If you can flourish in the mist of challenges which I am thinking you can, it is possible. It just is not easy.


This particular thread is invaluable. Not only because it has great advice within it, but also features a gal who knew better than all the long time people who offered their help to her. 
She's going to have a long road to walk I predict, as she has in many ways burnt bridges that would have been invaluable to her. Funny thing is her bitch missed and amazingly, she somehow found the time to breed her on next cycle (that one she could not wait on clearances for because of her other obligations). She's found a support group that will be behind her in doing things the wrong way, naturally. Those groups are out there but I would not suggest them.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I read that. She had good intintions and got side tracked somewhere along the way. I can see why breeders are reluctant to help. Maybe because of the hard feelings about newcomers this is the wrong place to ask for help. There is always one bad apple in the bunch that ruins it for the rest. Please know we are not all like her. I was starting to feel discouraged and almost attacked on a personal level for going after my dreams but I refuse to accept that. I do however understand that people offered their time and was disrespected. I wish I could of gotten here before the bad apples did! I would of loved all the help that was given to her! Thanks for the help I did receive and good luck to you all.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

I think I'm with _Solinvictus_ on this. If your real goal is to be involved with service and therapy dogs I think the best way to approach it is through involvement with organizations that are active in those areas rather than getting into breeding.

There are a variety of ways you can get involved with and become more knowledgeable about therapy work. Often your local Golden Retriever club will have a group of people who are involved in therapy work. The national organizations _www.PetPartners.org_ and TDI provide lots of information. _R.E.A.D_ is another good source. Some training centers have therapy dog classes which usually teach the things you and your dog will need to master in order to pass the certification test for one of the national therapy dog organizations. It's important to note that at least for PetPartners certification is for teams, i.e. dog and handler, and if someone else wants to work with the dog a recertification is required. The result is that you don't see people selling therapy dogs. 

I'm less familiar with service dogs but it's my understanding that organizations that train them typically select them for training after temperament testing rather than breeding them.

Even within a litter that might be expected to have temperaments appropriate for service or therapy work you are going to have significant variation and not all or perhaps any of the pups will develop into successful service or therapy dogs.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I'm very aware of the requirements for therapy and service dogs. Thanks for your opinions. I did not say i was selling therapy dogs. I'm not here to discuss that unless someone has specific questions I could be of assistance with. This whole thing has gotten so off topic. I didn't ask if I " should raise my own dogs" to achieve the very specific goals I have set and not shared with this group. I really am not trying to step on toes here but I am just asking about dogs, bloodlines and a possibly a mentor. Would anyone like to help me with that? If anyone knows a breeder whos dogs have gone on to be therapy or service animals i would love to get in touch with them. I could possibly buy a older female that doesn't work out as therapy , so I get her spayed and we have a beautifully trained pet. Im not out to breed any dog i can get my hands on. I have found plenty of " cheap" dogs. I want a good healthy dog to ttain. I will possibly breed her and would like that option, but i dont even have a male so please relax. Please do not read more into what you think I am doing . I have a very specific plan and even though I have not shared that ( and won't to the entire group) doesn't mean I have not thought about what I'm getting into. Please if you would like to help contact me! THanks again!!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

SueD said:


> I can see why breeders are reluctant to help. Maybe because of the hard feelings about newcomers this is the wrong place to ask for help. There is always one bad apple in the bunch that ruins it for the rest. Please know we are not all like her. I was starting to feel discouraged and almost attacked on a personal level for going after my dreams but I refuse to accept that. I do however understand that people offered their time and was disrespected. I wish I could of gotten here before the bad apples did! I would of loved all the help that was given to her!


Sue you have been offered a lot of the same help she was. She was in a little different position as she already had a girl, a poorly bred one and you are looking so not the exact same situation. 

This forum is actually a great place to ask general questions and is generally very responsive. 

I want to make sure you understand the challenges facing new people looking to breed are the same everywhere. Wonder why you have to ask for full registration? Because breeders were fed up with selling pet puppies to what they thought were families only to see these dogs in BYB or mill situations. This has been a sensitive issue for good breeders for generations. The thread about Lyndsay Halligan and how badly that has gone is just a drop in the proverbial bucket and one you could see for yourself on the forum as an example. I meant it when I said this happens all the time both here and to all the good breeders in real life.

If you are serious it is possible, I am not giving names because I am not familiar with your area. I will repeat though if you want a mentor, go out there and find one. Get active with dog clubs, volunteer at events, meet people face to face. Competing with your current dog would be a fabulous way to do this.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Agree- she wasn't the first and won't be the last- and you and she are not anywhere near the same goals wise it seems. BUT the thing that is the same is you are thinking of breeding. We're suggesting you get involved first, in the breed, through AKC events, and THEN the rest will probably all fall into place. I honestly- in nearly 40 years of this- can only think of one (ONE!!!) example of someone who starts with the breeding part and goes on to make a real contribution to the breed. The country is very small in our community, so we do all know everyone. 
And I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I believe any of us who have spent time on your question would be happy to help you- we just really (for the breed, not because of you or anything to do with you, but because we love the breed) want you to do it the right way. There aren't so many ways to do it well other than the right way. And certainly no other way to do it ethically well than the right way.

you've probably got enough posts to pm- and really, reach out and ask for help if you need it. I don't know anyone in Kansas but know there are people there who are ethical breeders (and I probably do just don't know they live there) and I know that most people are happy to educate, help, mentor- but you have to go to the right place to find those folks. HEad out to the show that Laura posted for you and find a hunt test too, on entry express, and go there as well. You'll meet super nice people. Mentors really need to be close enough to where you live to be able to go over dogs with you, spend time with you, etc. And be there to help you or you could help them when it comes whelping time. It's really not that easy and certainly is harder if all you have are long distance people to count on.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Yes there are a lot of "mills and backyard breeders" I have found several. I won't buy from them . I dont want to buy from anyone if they haven't done at least the 4 basic tests. I totally understand some of you have been burned. That doesn't mean all of us are out to do that. I understand the apprehension, but I also think that judgement should be on a case by case basis. i do have a golden. He is a very spoiled neutered male. I am starting from scratch and i am excited about that. I don't have a website or fb trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. Not all newbies are out to take advantage or breed in a puppy mill. I have managed a humane society, worked a vet and fostered dogs. Everyone deserves a chance to start somewhere without having to defend their dreams or tell everyone their entire plan. I've spent a lot of time putting this together. If I didn't care about the breed I would buy a 500 $ dog and breed it . I don't want to. I love this breed and I don't want to breed problematic issues. I don't want for me or someone else to train for up to 2 yrs and have health issues that could of been avoided. I want my planned one litter a year to be the best it can be. I am "out finding" a mentor. I may not be looking at the shows but I am on this forum where there are so many educated people to help. I may go to some shows, I may not. I live so far away from anyrhing like that. I just don't want anyone atressuming I am like that other gal because I am asking for help. Honestly I'm not sure this is even the place to ask. There are so many hard feelings about it . Just not her. I don't want to be here defending my dreams with people I don't know. I just need some help. If that scares people I sorry.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

On why people are so careful- just the other day, I saw a CL post for a boy who came down from a litter I knew was carefully placed by someone local to me at that time.
That boy's offspring, through less careful choices, has ended up in a puppy factory siring litters- probably hundreds since the owner of the puppy factory has a permit for more than 50 bitches. When you are a good breeder, and are so so so careful- and still it happens, it is discouraging. To say the least. That scenario is a nightmare scenario for a breeder who is conscientious and careful. It happens alot for the fast and easy breeder types. Some dogs end up out of the country. It's crazy. No one wants to take a chance that that could happen to their baby, that they carefully bred, whelped, and raised. It's when puppies go on full and reproduce that the next generation is in dire danger of just that.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> Yes there are a lot of "mills and backyard breeders" I have found several. I won't buy from them . I dont want to buy from anyone if they haven't done at least the 4 basic tests. I totally understand some of you have been burned. That doesn't mean all of us are out to do that. I understand the apprehension, but I also think that judgement should be on a case by case basis. i do have a golden. He is a very spoiled neutered male. I am starting from scratch and i am excited about that. I don't have a website or fb trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. Not all newbies are out to take advantage or breed in a puppy mill. I have managed a humane society, worked a vet and fostered dogs. Everyone deserves a chance to start somewhere without having to defend their dreams or tell everyone their entire plan. I've spent a lot of time putting this together. If I didn't care about the breed I would buy a 500 $ dog and breed it . I don't want to. I love this breed and I don't want to breed problematic issues. I don't want for me or someone else to train for up to 2 yrs and have health issues that could of been avoided. I want my planned one litter a year to be the best it can be. I am "out finding" a mentor. I may not be looking at the shows but I am on this forum where there are so many educated people to help. I may go to some shows, I may not. I live so far away from anyrhing like that. I just don't want anyone atressuming I am like that other gal because I am asking for help. Honestly I'm not sure this is even the place to ask. There are so many hard feelings about it . Just not her. I don't want to be here defending my dreams with people I don't know. I just need some help. If that scares people I sorry.


Here's the thing- if you don't get involved, you will never get that nice breedable puppy. You'll have to start with less than.
You will find our feelings here, that seem hard to you, are the same every place you look. No one wants to see a careless mistake, not that you will make one, but that you COULD. And honestly, I would imagine you should see red flags if, like I said in an earlier post, someone offers to sell you full or just sells all pups on full. 
It's a huge trust thing you would be asking for and without personal knowledge (which you could get if you'd make the steps to do it) of a person, any unknown will be untrusted. And if you ever become a breeder, I hope you too are just as discerning. If you say you won't be, then that is very telling.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

They end up out in the country? Do you mean dropped off somewhere? I sure hope not.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

No, in Japan or China, making puppies.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I am actually getting to the point where I am sorry I even opened this can of worms. I thought this would be an encouraging and supportive place to ask questions. Please don't get me wrong, some posts have been very helpful. I feel like I am spending more time defending my hopes and dreams. I wonder of some remember those days.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Oh in puppy mills and raised for meat. That makes me sick. I wish I could end all of that but if there is a dollar to be made people will find a way. :-(


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

So, what I did was to come here and go to dog shows. Here, I met someone here who recommended a breeder to me, and I ended up getting a dog from that breeder. And the person who recommended the breeder is now my friend. At dog shows, I met breeders and picked their brains for a long time. I joined my local Golden Retriever club and got involved, volunteering for everything and anything they needed. I got my dogs active in dog things (conformation dog shows, agility and hunt tests). In a fairly short time, all the local breeders knew I was serious about the breed; as serious as they were. And I made friends and connections. That was hard, and it took time and energy.

Then we started searching for a breeding female. Because we had proven both our dogs and ourselves, we were fortunate to have multiple litters to choose from for what we hoped to be our foundation bitch. We bought a puppy, raised her, showed her to her Grand Championship to prove her breeding worthiness, and researched for over a year for to find the right stud for what we wanted to accomplish. During all that, I took courses in population genetics, breeding techniques and puppy whelping and raising, and read a whole library of books. I also called breeders and spoke to them on the phone for hours to learn about proper breeding techniques.

I didn't just look for someone who would sell me a puppy I could breed. Had I gone that route, I doublt I would have succeeded, and I definitely wouldn't have learned what I know now.

My path isn't the only path. There are many. But there aren't really any shortcuts.

One of my dogs sired a puppy who is now a super highly trained service dog. I'm really impressed with what he's doing. It's amazing, and he's doing something that really matters. He's making a difference in the world, which lots of humans can't say. So, while you might think I'm discouraging you, I'm actually enthusiastically rooting for you. You can do it! It just might not be as quick or easy as you hoped. And you can't be discouraged when it's not handed to you after a couple of forum posts. It's hard. And it should be hard. Because those who actually go through the process and get there are usually the ones who deserve to get there. I'm hoping you're one who does.

By the way, the people here can be really helpful, and they can also be very brutal. There is sometimes an unhealthy mob mentality here, and a mean-spirited piling on. I was the victim of it when I was new here. It really hurt, at the time. Now I know not to take it seriously. (Of course, it helps that now I know more than most of them do, so I can see the baloney for what it is. That perspective was hard-earned, though.)

Hang in there. If you're destined to do this, you'll do it. If not, you'll fall by the wayside like so many others have. I guess we'll see.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> I am actually getting to the point where I am sorry I even opened this can of worms. I thought this would be an encouraging and supportive place to ask questions. Please don't get me wrong, some posts have been very helpful. I feel like I am spending more time defending my hopes and dreams. I wonder of some remember those days.


I haven't read a single post that was discouraging to your dream. All of them are very realistic and honest. 
No one here has said not to pursue it, just have given you an idea of what sort of scrutiny you will face if you want to use a solid foundation.
You didn't open a bad can. Probably hundreds of similar posts have been made here and on breeder lists. I think we are very supportive as a rule. And we do need more good breeders in this breed, absolutely. Especially in the MW. BUT you will have to jump some hoops to get what you need to start right. There won't be support like, 'oh, yes, and here's where you can get a bitch' in ANY breed. Any breed's good breeders primary concern is protecting their beloved breed, whether it is Malamutes or Greyhounds or Goldens.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Thank you for that and your encouraging words.. I will find a way and it will be the right way. I love what these dogs do for people. I've worked social services for a long time and I've seen animal therapy work over and over for our abused, neglected and thrown away children. I now have a personal understanding of " special needs" children. My heart is drawn to this work by personal experience and my personal spiritual beliefs. I will do this. I don't want it handed to me. I've done this work for years, I'm just adding the golden retriever piece. I'm sure it will take me several years. I live in the boonies and there isn't any reputable bredeers any where close so it makes it very difficult to find help.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Joining a club and going to GR club meetings in itself will help show local breeders that you're serious and willing to put in the work to do things right. Usually it's just a monthly meeting, and you don't have to make all of them. I drive an hour and a half each way to make meetings, some people drive over 2. But you'll learn so much and get a better chance to really meet people and talk dogs


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## Pilgrim123 (Jul 26, 2014)

Firstly, I want to make clear that I'm not a breeder and don't have any hidden agenda to follow here. I fully applaud your desire to increase the number of therapy dogs and goldens are certainly well suited to that.
But I can also see why you may have not got the replies you expected. For one thing, how does anybody know who you are and what you will do with the dog? Yours is an effectively anonymous post to this forum, where you could be telling us untruths (not that I am saying you're lying, but it has been known in the past from others.) Until breeders meet you, they won't know who you are and how passionate you are about breeding the best therapy dogs possible. So, go to the shows and go to the club meetings. Make connections with breeders and mentors. You won't know if you can work effectively with someone if you only "meet" them online. 
Also, stand for a moment in the shoes of the breeders. The amount of work they have put in to improving the breed is not to be sneezed at. Nobody here has said no - most have just pointed out the challenges, sometimes bluntly. They just want to be sure of the fate of their dogs. They want to be sure that you want what is best for the breed as a whole. 
I wish you well in your endeavors.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I think the overall response of members is that I am being untruthful because of their past experiances. That makes me sad. They have to give me a chance and not assume I am like others. Yes, I have said many times I understand their point of view. As you have seen therr are not many breeders in kansas and driving2 to 6 hrs +to a show will be very diffucult as I have a special needs child. Maybe as I understand where they are coming from because of past hurts . I should get the same respec. As a newbie We are not all the same. At least give me a chance before deciding that i don't have the breed in mind, that I would breed a 1 yr old, that there are red flags because I didn't throw my whole life story out there . I have a great plan and it will work. I don't have a hidden agenda. I don't have a fake website. I'm not selling pups I don't have. I only have a neutered male ! Give me a chance to prove myself before judging! Anyone coming in to work with goldens to help children are worth at least that! A chance! Yes I would like breeding g rights but there is nothing that says I would breed that female. She could get fixed. I didn't day I was " selling" therapy dogs. So many things have been assumed because of past experiances. I'm not your past! I'm sue. Give me a chance!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Sue I truly wish you well. I think you are in for a lot of disappointment and I am sorry for it. You have an expectation that just is not reasonable. You did not know it was unreasonable and it hurts when that is pointed out. It truly could work if you wanted to raise to the challenge and put in the effort but you seem unwilling or unable to adapt to the idea that you will need to and honestly should need to prove yourself here. I do not doubt you are sincere in your desire to this nor do I believe most people here do. 

What is becoming clear though is that this true and valuable information is not what you want. I am sorry but it just does not work the way you want it to. 

Perhaps a comparison might help. I might might be wasting my time here if you have already closed your mind but I'll try one more time anyway. 

Imagine a person unknown to you has a passion for helping children, perhaps even disabled children. Would you put this person in charge of a program in close contact with children just because they want to make a difference? 

Or would you expect them to attend training? Perhaps pass some sort of evaluation or test? How about background tests? Finger printing? 

I am guessing if you where going to allow a stranger access to vulnerable and impressionable children you would insist on some if not all of these things. 

This is what we are tying to share with you so you don't loose your opportunity. What will the requirements be for a breeder to potentially trust you with what they see as living being they caused to be in the works and for which even after placing them feel responsible for and any progeny they produce. 

If you don't want to take the many suggestions to get active and meet people then I just don't see a lot of success or satisfaction headed your way. Just like the stranger volunteer would not be able to work with kids if they declined the testing required to do so. 

Passion alone can't get you to your goal. Both passion and work can get you there. At this point you just seem to want it your way which is not how good breeders work.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Really? That has to be the rudest thing anyone has said. Its obvious you didnt read all of my posts. What a totally unfair comparison. I'm sure you do your best getting your dogs good homes. I'm sure not all of them have found great homes.. I'm sure all of the breeders have made mistakes. Did I once say I wouldnt work at it? Nope.are you assuming? yep! Go back and read all the posts before you judge me. Please if you don't have anything nice to say then just don't say anything.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Overall this has not been a great experiance. Is there anyone that has anything supportive or kind to say. Any words of encouragement that doesn't include your criticism? How about a welcome we love new potential breeders can we help you with a few things amd have you look at some things a little differently? Some of you did that very well and I thank you. If you want someone to look at something differently come at them with kindness it is a much better way.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

It took me 25 years and moving 1500 miles to find my mentor and becoming active in my local Golden Retriever Club.

The two dogs I now have with full registration are co-owned with her, so she makes all the decisions. My daughter and I in the past two years have spent hours and hours with her - training, learning to groom, learning to show, showing, helping to whelp puppies, puppy sitting for her, etc. My daughter will even spend a few days to a week at her house. We talk with her almost on a daily basis. We have already spent thousands ourselves on this "hobby" with grooming and show supplies, show expenses, certifications.

My breeder is one of the ones that did get fooled by a fellow breeder who accepted a puppy for payment as a stud fee. A few years later, somebody tipped her off that the dog was in a Japan puppy mill. She spent tons of money hiring a private investigator to find Jackson, and brought him back home. Took over a year to nurse him back to health. Because of this, her contracts are very strict, so this does not happen again.

First off you appear to be using the terms "service dog" and "therapy dog" interchangeably. There is difference between the two. Therapy dogs and their handler do need to be certified by an accredited tester.

You say you are in Kansas - are you close enough to be able to attend some of the Kansas City Golden Retriever meetings? - we have them in Overland Park KS most of the time, occasionally in other places around Kansas City.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I encourage you to become active in the breed--set the computer aside & log the miles to learn, see & do. I am thankful to the breeders who throw their whole selves into it--their passion for their dogs, puppies, puppy families & the breed in general are unmistakeable. They sacrifice their own time & time with their loved ones to do it right as there simply is no room for short cuts. You say you're different than every other newbie that comes here & wants to jump head first into breeding & do it right but then offers a million reasons why they can't follow the advice they requested from those in the know, sadly this thread is exactly like all the others--not one has gone down the path of being a reputable breeder, not one... I encourage you to be different--listen to the advice you sought & embrace it. You may need to adjust your goals or lengthen the timeline but it is possible w/ the adjustments recommended on this thread.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

SueD said:


> What a totally unfair comparison.


Why?
I was only trying to use an example where the requirements are clear and you would likely be able to see why they are important. Hoping you might see that we are trying to help you understand what a breeder is going to look for in a full registration home. 



SueD said:


> Did I once say I wouldnt work at it? Nope.are you assuming? yep! Go back and read all the posts before you judge me.


It kind of seemed like you were not particularly willing to meet people in person when you said this...


SueD said:


> I am "out finding" a mentor. I may not be looking at the shows but I am on this forum where there are so many educated people to help. I may go to some shows, I may not. I live so far away from anyrhing like that.


Perhaps I misunderstood but that did not sound like you are going to get out and work to find a mentor. 

We have tried to give you examples and perhaps that was the wrong idea because now you think it is about one thread on here. It was intended to give you a deeper understanding that this is not one person on here but a common issue for breeders. So common it resulted in the creation of limited registration.

Nobody is comparing you to anyone in particular. You are simply an unknown with a big request and if you don't want to make the effort to meet good breeders you can't get them to give you chance. 

Want to make it happen? Get out there and get active where you can meet Golden breeders face to face. You could do it if you put your determination behind it.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I'm sorry to hear that. I am a long ways from kc but I did find wheatlands in Wichita and sent them a message. They are still a long drive but that would be more possible. I'm glad you found someone to help you! That's a positive story ( other than the poor boy that went over seas) and I thank you for sharing.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Again, I have said I would be intersted in a pup. Again, I have said that just because I would like breeding rights doesn't mean the dog will be bred. I would like that option if training goes well, clearances check out and I would even talk to the breeder about options. I'm not breeding to a back yard breeder after spending all the time and effort in training. Again, yes I know the difference between therapy and service. I'm not asking about that.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I posit that you will have to go the route I suggested early on, find the very best you can afford and buy her on limited with the option to go to full with all clearances and a title. That will get you a nice foundation. And even if your circumstances are such that you do not believe you can do a title due to travel, it is still do-able. There are lots of trainers who could do a CD for you for a fee. 
I think Laura (as well as all of us who have invested time in giving you a realistic vision to add to your passion) was not even remotely being rude- have never seen her be unkind. We all know there is a huge need for more breeders but not bad breeders so it's important you can realize it is not unlike giving someone access to small children. No one would do that willy-nilly unless they themselves were people you would not want to trust- so do not be offended when breeders you approach have those hoops to jump through. It's to be expected and it's something you want.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

What happened to me was I went to a golden retriever grooming seminar given by my breeder with my "pet golden retriever" - I then hired her to groom my dog. In my discussions, I told her it was my dream to own a show puppy. She was impressed by my current dog and remembered me. About 10 months later I get a surprised e-mail asking if I wanted to co-own with her. Luckily, we only live 10 minutes from her, but people do travel hours to go to some of her seminars. Now I know so many people in the golden world and in other breeds, plus connections I have made on this forum have moved over into Facebook.

Get your name out there as much as you can. Network and prove yourself. I know it is frustrating, been there. When I bought my first "pet" golden, I contacted 10 breeders before anybody would even return a call or e-mail and it was from one of the best known breeders out there. I was so thrilled to have gotten a puppy from her, I never even told her I wanted a show dog - I had given up on that dream. Ten years later I called her up about possibly breeding my now female with one of her dogs - she was so happy to hear from me, was so supportive to have heard what I was doing and how Brady was doing, I really wish I had the courage to talk to her about showing back when we bought Brady, I think that is where I missed an opportunity - but everything happens for a reason.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I bet if I came on here and said I had $ 100,000 to spend on a one yr old bitch I would of getting flooded with personal messages. 
There is a serious clique here. I've read every message. I've said many times I would be intersted in a pup. I've contacted the local golden club. 
This being said, rude is rude. 
If anyone else in this group had a different opinion or would like to help me they would have to private message me , which has begun. Because they wouldn't want to speak out against the crowd who insists they wouldn't do this and noone else should if they are reputable.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

SueD said:


> I bet if I came on here and said I had $ 100,000 to spend on a one yr old bitch I would of getting flooded with personal messages.


Sorry, but I just have to tell you that that is the most uninformed thing you have said in this thread. And it proves that you truly do not understand where these people are coming from. I wish you would go back and read their posts with an open mind. The people here could have said, from the get go, you're a fraud, you're a liar, you shouldn't be raising dogs. Instead, they very meticulously went through things you could do to get started. They were different responses from what you wanted and hoped for, but it doesn't mean they were attacking you. They were being honest and trying to guide you.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

SueD said:


> I bet if I came on here and said I had $ 100,000 to spend on a one yr old bitch I would of getting flooded with personal messages. .


This is your take away? You've seriously missed the point of the responses to your inquiry & are presenting yourself like every other wanna be breeder who wants instant gratification--good luck w/ that & truly hope whatever girl you end up with, the pups produced & the families who trust in you don't suffer at the hands of your decisions.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

SueD said:


> I bet if I came on here and said I had $ 100,000 to spend on a one yr old bitch I would of getting flooded with personal messages.


I would bet you would be right but not from breeders that have what you're asking for in the form of good lines and health testing. 

I am glad you are getting help privately. Remember to check health certifications before you make a commitment. Sadly there are many breeders out there who will claim they have them when they don't and it is up to you to know how to check. I believe I posted some good images in your other post. 

Sorry you feel that I am rude, I am not trying to be. Then again, I think your responses to other posters have been pretty rude. Especially the 'I was not asking about that' responses to people who where very obviously trying to help you. So I think rude is in the eye of the beholder. 

Good luck to you. Perhaps in several years we will see a lovely post about breeding your first litter with the health and testing you are looking for. That would be great. :grin2:


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

SueD said:


> I bet if I came on here and said I had $ 100,000 to spend on a one yr old bitch I would of getting flooded with personal messages.
> There is a serious clique here. I've read every message. I've said many times I would be intersted in a pup. I've contacted the local golden club.
> This being said, rude is rude.
> If anyone else in this group had a different opinion or would like to help me they would have to private message me , which has begun. Because they wouldn't want to speak out against the crowd who insists they wouldn't do this and noone else should if they are reputable.


I think you are being unfair to all these people giving you advice. I filled out so many puppy applications and had multiple conversations with breeders who actually responded to me. I had been turned away from some really good breeders because I am unable to put up a fence in my backyard. I was not mad at them or thought they were being unfair. These pups are like their children and they want to have a lasting relationship with whoever adopts them. I had to prove I was sincere and willing to do whatever needs to be done for the happiness and we'll being of the puppy. It took me multiple conversations with Mary Beth to prove this to her. She even recommended junior handling for my 10 year old son and is willing to help us out with that. I only have limited registration until I get him titled. What I think you should do is try to find a breeder you can have a good constant relationship with. The breeder cab lift the limited registration whenever she feels that you are ready. It will take time but it will be worth it.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

SueD said:


> I bet if I came on here and said I had $ 100,000 to spend on a one yr old bitch I would of getting flooded with personal messages.


Nobody has been rude to you, we are just telling the truth. My breeder actually charges below the norm just to make sure the right home is found. She does not even take deposits on her dogs, because she wants the ability to say NO at the very last minute. She even raises a couple puppies from every litter, one for her to keep, and one for somebody that may be looking for an older puppy later on. The latest one she had rehomed had gone through pet therapy classes and had done some visits. She loses money on her dogs every year, it is her other businesses that support the hobby.

She had one litter last year, Grand Champion parents, father is pretty well known in the show ring, huge litter, puppies were very light. She used to joke that if she advertised them as "English Cream's" people would be lined up at her door willing to spend between 3K and 5k each - sad part is that it is the truth, they would, but she would never have done that. They were sold for a fraction of that price.

Another thing you need to realize is our club gets almost 200 people looking for referrals for litters in the KC area a year, there is probably only about 4 or 5 litters that are born from reputable breeders in the area - so approximately 30 puppies, out of those puppies, half will be performance or field lines ( these puppies do not go to the average home because they are very "busy" dogs ) and the other half are show litters. Of those 15 puppies from the show litters, you will get your pet, therapy dogs, some obedience and sometimes field. As for service dogs, that is a very tough life for a dog, and it takes some very special traits - I think it is very rare for breeder to sell as a service dog, depending on the service that dog will be asked to perform. First picks always go to people already connected with those breeders. After that, there might be 7 or 8 puppies that go to the average person looking for a puppy - that is not that many for the 200 people looking. 

I have to admit that sometimes there are cliques, but what you are reading on this forum is just the hard truth. 

Remember how I told you it took me 25 years to get into this, well I am still a beginner and learning everyday - but I have put my time into the breed and am even the President of my local golden club. And from what I learned before I had a mentor, I learned from the many years of experience of different people on this forum, and I like to help educate people, like I have been educated. 

I know of a litter in the KC area that is being planned for 2017, with a concentration of the temperament to be therapy dogs but I doubt they would be sold on full registration. 
This is why networking is so important.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You wouldn't be flooded w offers from reputable breeders. That's just a fact. 
And instant gratification vs willingness to learn, well, to me you have shown true colors here- you want what you want and you want it now ...and you're not interested in expanding your knowledge base, so I hope you are successful but I doubt we will ever see you come back and admit you should have learnt from this thread. 
Really, what you are doing is absolutely no different from the girl whose thread we posted earlier- now, now and more now. 
I'm sorry for the breed.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Sue, I am going to give you a different perspective.


When I was a senior in College I researched and researched Goldens' health issues. I researched breeders. I found a breeder that I liked and I told her what my plans were with the girl. We built a relationship. Remi was my first golden I bought and I was extremely proud and wanted to do right by the breeder. She was sold on Limited and if she passed her clearances and got a title, she would lift it so I could breed her. I have learned sooo much over the years. I have been around dogs all my life, worked at a vet, went to college for a biological science degree, but none of that would help me with breeding golden retrievers.


I took Remi home at 8 weeks and I did accomplish a lot with her before I bred her. She ended up getting her CGC first, then her Junior Hunter, and then I finished her CH. She got all of her clearances and I wanted to breed her! She is my heart dog! Nothing anybody could tell me would have prepared me for the breeding aspect!! It is extremely hard work (not saying that you would not work hard!). I did not expect THAT much hard work! It is so exhausting, but a good exhausting.


That was 4 years ago and I have learned so much in those 4 years. Do I know it all? Absolutely not!! I am trying. I understand everyone has to start somewhere, I wouldn't expect a newbie to know everything about breeding, but you do need to find a good mentor. 


Have you joined a local golden retriever club? The golden retriever club of America? Or even a local kennel club? That would be where I would start. 


I am throwing this out there as I have tried to tell other people trying to get started. Have you thought about a boy puppy instead of a girl? More breeders (IMO) would be more lenient with a boy than a girl. That way you could prove your boy in some event, get clearances, and more breeders would be willing to sell you a puppy. 


You can get to you dreams, you just might have to take some detours in order to get there.


Good Luck to you and I do think we ALL want you do succeed. We just want you to be prepared. I know a lot of breeders have so much hope in their puppies and some finish their girls before clearances to find out their beautiful puppy failed hips or a clearance. It is heart breaking. 


Don't be discouraged, but take the advice and move forward with your plans.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> I bet if I came on here and said I had $ 100,000 to spend on a one yr old bitch I would of getting flooded with personal messages.
> There is a serious clique here. I've read every message. I've said many times I would be intersted in a pup.


You have said you want a pup on full registration. 
That's what you are going to have a hard time finding unless you go one of the routes we've suggested and plan to clearance and title before you even are allowed the option of deciding whether or not to breed the bitch you buy.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tiny set of thoughts to add after everyone else.... 

There are those of us who grew up with this breed and are very active in the breed - who are not immediately jumping into breeding. Or if they do, it is on a very limited scale. 

I think two big reasons are when you breed your bitch - there's always a risk of losing the entire litter or losing the mama. Also, sometimes you put a ton of money into breeding a litter - and end up with a very small litter.

A friend of mine had 2 litters with her female. First litter was fine - but very small (3 puppies, one whom she kept, one who paid the stud fee, and the other did not come close to paying the other costs of breeding). Second litter she had mastitis and had to have one of the girl's nipples removed. It was pretty serious and she was afraid of losing her girl. The puppies in the litter got to hang out with a friend's bitch who had a litter - and basically spent most of the time with the friend who had was reimbursed for some expenses (she didn't have to, but she did). When the puppies came back to her, they pretty much were total strangers to their mom. She wanted nothing to do with them and I could go on - but it wasn't exactly a perfect situation that a lot of new breeders dream about. In this case, she spayed the girlie shortly after.

Another friend put a lot of expense into breeding her girl - and had a singleton litter. And she kept that puppy. I believe that puppy later on did not get clearances, so that was it. 

Another friend had an imported dog (different breed) from Germany who was pretty expensive to begin with and then she showed her as well.... when she got around to breeding her, the girl lost the entire litter and they ended up spaying her because there were cysts all over her uterus. <- This friend similarly does not breed all the time. She only breeds when she herself wants a puppy to keep to continue what she has. So here she basically had a dead end after spaying that girl. She had to import another puppy and start all over again.

Most people who own studs are more likely to do frequent breedings - when the stud is well known or the people are well-connected. Other people who start out with a stud and don't get out there or load up the titles on their dog, won't necessarily get too many offers for their dog. <- If you start out with the idea of breeding your dog and getting a stud-fee puppy back to start your own kennel, it's still not going to be an easy for sure thing. 

Other issue which needs a lot of thought... and this is true for myself... if you have a dog who could be bred and has received offers, there might not be a lot of eagerness to breed simply because some dogs lose their brains after being bred. Not all do, but some definitely do.

Other stuff to consider - there are no for sure things unless you bring home an adult dog who already has full clearances. Having a history of clearances behind a dog simply means your dog has a stronger likelihood of clearing. It doesn't mean your dog won't have HD or ED when it's full grown. 

I'm just saying there's a lot of unknowns and expense in breeding. When you are out there quite a bit, you pretty much have no illusions as far as breeding as a lucrative business. People who do make a little money at it, they are well-established and respected because of what they have done + they are well-connected + most generally are very active in one area or another. They might not be out campaigning dogs all over the place, but they have puppy people who do.

^^^^ All the above = random thoughts, admittedly on this subject. But the point is that if your primary reason for purchasing a dog is for the express purpose of breeding - it's not the same type of certainty as somebody else might have as far as purchasing a brand new car and having a crazy plan of paying the car off by doing the Uber thing (and I'm not even sure if that's a sound idea LOL - I just heard an ad on the radio suggesting something like that). You have to be really into the breed to stick with it. And most people either don't stick with it, or they start short-cutting or taking advice from the wrong people and doing all the wrong things and they end up being the subject of caution notes shared between breeders and people. 

Speaking personally here... I can't say enough that getting out there and doing dog stuff IS FUN for it's own sake. It's a hobby. If you stick with it, it will lead to more expertise as you get deeper buried in said hobby. When people put a lot of emphasis on doing it as a requirement before X, it sucks the fun out and it sets them up for disappointment or discouragement because of bumps in the road. Especially when they are learning everything with the first dog they have.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I see I hit a few nerves with the $ post. Now I will explain why i said that. Saying that was an unfair " judgment" that some of you took very personally just like some of you that have been very rude about newbies. It is an " unfair judgement" 
I did get a little rude in some of my statements and I appologize. It wasn't meant toward the majority of you but to people telling me I am just like the many other newbies and the very rude post on how I will never succeed. 
I have contacted my local golden club and was excited about that advice. 
Most breeders out here are back yard and puppy mills. It will be an almost impossible task to find a close reputable breeder to pick a potential therapy dog. Most are sold before they are born! 
I absolutely don't mind a limited registration with the possibly of full when clearances are passed and even the therapy certification is acquired. I am even open to help picking or maybe even someday purchasing a sire. 
Somehow things have been switched to I'm looking for an easy route. Maybe something I said or maybe just personal hurts from waiting time on people that were new here and we're a waste of your time.
Gals, honestly if I was looking for the quick way I would already be breeding. I have found so many dogs for sale. $ 500 full registration to adult females ( purchased at a pet store) and a few older females with full breeding rights. 
The thing is I want to do it right. I don't want to spend my time training to find out my baby has major health issues because I made poor choices. 
Service work can be difficult on dogs I agree. However I'm not talking about mobility dogs or dogs trained to help pull wheel chairs. Emotional support and medical alert dogs are recognized under service dogs. I am honestly more intersted in therapy but service dogs for emotional issues would be more up my alley. .


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Very good info and things to think about as well. Ty


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

How do I post directly to a reply?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I also just sent you a private message.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

SueD said:


> How do I post directly to a reply?


Just click the button that says "Quote".


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Thank you!!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I thought I was done with this thread. Guess not.

You know, it occurs to me that not every good person has the same breeding goals. Most folks here want to "improve the breed" (whatever that means). But are there other breeding motives that might be valid?

Let me offer a hypothetical situation:

Say someone wants to breed dogs for the express purpose of, say, providing trained dogs that assist children with developmental disabilities. Goldens are a great breed for that. Easy temperament, smart, biddable, patient and devoted. A perfect choice for such work. But the person isn't so much interested in Goldens as a guardian of the breed, _per se_, as she is in helping disadvantaged children. Her motivation is the children, not the dogs. She loves helping disabled children and she loves Goldens, and this seems to her like a completely fantastic marriage of two loves.

This hypothetical person has no interest in "proving" her dogs in any venue. She is not breeding for the breed. She is breeding for the children. The dogs are essentially tools to a greater end. 

So to meet that end, she wants a biddable foundation bitch to breed puppies who are _all_ destined to be trained to help disabled kids (assuming they all have the aptitude), generation after generation. She will get the four core clearances and try to breed generally healthy and temperamentally bulletproof dogs. But beyond that, her interest is in providing trained dogs for disabled children. Period. No "betterment of the breed" motivation. No interest in taking the traditional breeding path.

In your mind, would this be a legit breeding motivation and strategy? Would you help such a person?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Absolutely that would be good breeding motivation. And admirable to boot.

I just think that in order to GET to that reliably healthy and breedable bitch, one would either have to get a less than bitch or go the route of limited till tested/titled. 
i've sold lots of puppies to a service dog group- Goodwill- 
and I know the change those dogs have made for their people. 
However, had Goodwill approached me about starting a breeding program, I would not have been interested in being a part of it- mostly because (as you know) Goldens have many issues that require participation in the sport to understand, and study of the pedigree/knowledge of the pedigree and many other things are gleaned with participation. And honestly, even though Goodwill is a national company, I'm not sure they would have been willing to go to outside studs, etc to get what they needed. In the case of the small at-home person like Sue, what I would worry about is that next generation of puppies reproducing, since she has no reputation to lose if her grandpups end up in a bad breeding scenario.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

DanaRuns said:


> I thought I was done with this thread. Guess not.
> 
> You know, it occurs to me that not every good person has the same breeding goals. Most folks here want to "improve the breed" (whatever that means). But are there other breeding motives that might be valid?
> 
> ...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I don't think you'll have a hard time finding 'full reg. as a possibilty'- what I think you will have a hard time doing is finding a wellbred bitch will full at the outset.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Oh yet another slam. Slow down and read some of my current posts. I have never met so many kind people and so many mean hearted people in one place. To everyone that chooses to slam me I will not be responding to you. To the people giving good advice , again I thank you and please know that I have read your posts and appreciate them. I'm learning more than you know.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> I don't think you'll have a hard time finding 'full reg. as a possibilty'- what I think you will have a hard time doing is finding a wellbred bitch will full at the outset.


I agree. Although I have found a few I have seen red flags and have not purchased. I want to do this the right way and will prove my dog. If she isn't right then we will have her spayed and enjoy working with her.!


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

SueD said:


> So your hypothetical situation is just that.I'm not sure where you put all of that together but it is not what I am trying to represent here.


Hence, "hypothetical." If I had been referring to you, I would not have labeled it "hypothetical."



> I am wondering how many times I need to make the same statement before a few of you actually figure out what I am saying.
> Some of you act like I'm going to be some kind of puppy mill. If I seriously just wanted good natured dogs that have horrible health and unknown breeding I wouldn't be here I would be out buying backyard dogs!
> Give me a little credit.





> Oh yet another slam. Slow down and read some of my current posts. I have never met so many kind people and so many mean hearted people in one place. To everyone that chooses to slam me I will not be responding to you. To the people giving good advice , again I thank you and please know that I have read your posts and appreciate them. I'm learning more than you know.


You are off on your own adventure here, and you are misinterpreting everything at this point. Your skin is thinner than Donald Trump's. You need to chill out. I have been nice to you, as have others. If everyone around you looks mean (the site won't let me use the word I want to) to you, maybe it's you, not them.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I'll bite. There is still a lot of missing information here but as described, no.

Would I help an organization with that same goal? Maybe. 

An organization could be vetted. The level of experience with dogs could be reviewed. There is a huge support structure that I could see. 

I say maybe because my concern is *I am* about Goldens and some organizations find straight Goldens don't quite fit the bill. They then start breeding to Labs or Poodles. While I understand the mixing of breeds is designed to serve their goal and purpose, it is not something I could support with my own dogs.

If Sue is serious about going it on her own I still believe getting active is the way to go. Think of all the knowledge and support she would be missing out not being connected to the wider community. How does she learn about good stud dogs? Then Dana the question becomes what stud dog owners would breed to this dog? Hypothetically would you?

There is another path for her. She could become involved with a service or therapy dog organization. She could possibly offer to raise and/or house a breeding bitch for the organization. This would give her a support system and she would be making the difference she wants to. But she would face some downsides like not really owning the girl or the puppies and not likely having a say on sires, which might matter to some. 

Just some thoughts.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

LJack said:


> Then Dana the question becomes what stud dogs owners would breed to this dog? Hypothetically would you?


Yeah, probably not, unless she had a track record and I could see and vet both it and her.

I will say that one of Gibbs' puppies is an amazing service dog. Truly impressive and doing astounding work. Such a good thing. I would want to be a part of something like that. The question for me would be one of vetting.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Not a chance in hell....



LJack said:


> Then Dana the question becomes what stud dogs owners would breed to this dog? Hypothetically would you?


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

SueD said:


> like I mentioned, the dog may never be bred. She may not end up a good prospect for breeding so she gets spayed and MAYBE I look at adding an additional dog to my home, maybe not. What's really so wrong with wanting full registration as a possibility? (...)
> I am wondering how many times I need to make the same statement before a few of you actually figure out what I am saying.


I've read through the entire thread, and it seems to me that your question (in red) has been answered several times.

The problem with wanting full registration is that, while your motivations may be good and honest, the same can't be said of every puppy buyer. If a breeder sells a pup with full registration, he or she essentially loses control of if and how the kennel lines are reproduced down the road. Breeders who have invested their lives in creating good lines just don't want that. To answer your question, that, essentially, is what is wrong with wanting full registration upon purchase. It's very hard for breeders to sift the "good" prospects from the "bad", unless you come to them via a network of people who can vouch for you.

When I purchased my first golden pup 10 years ago, I was looking for an agility prospect. So I went to agility trials, talked to people with the types of golden I wanted, and got personal referrals to breeders. I met with several breeders and "clicked" with one. I'd already been competing in agility for eight years, so I had history, contacts, etc., and I knew what I wanted. By the time my pup was ready to come home, nearly a year later, the breeder and I had become friends. She gave me her own pick of the litter. Even so, the rules were very clear: she sold the pup to me on limited registration, and told me that if I was able to put titles on the dog, and if I got all the health tests done, we might, at some point down the road, discuss the possibility of breeding her as a joint venture, if I wanted to.

I got the titles - some very prestigious ones - and I got the health tests done, but did not want to breed my dog.

My point in telling you this is to show you how the dog world works. Breeders, understandably, want to control if and how their lines are reproduced. It's just how it is. I don't think it's hard to understand why: in many cases, those lines are their life's work. Given that this is the kind of breeder you want to do business with, it's not realistic to expect full registration upon purchase. Things don't work like that. But develop a relationship with the breeder, do things with your pup to show that she has qualities worth reproducing, and make contact with people who will vouch for you - then you can ask for full registration.

I think this is basically what lots of people have been trying to explain to you.

I hope things work out for you. Best of luck!


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

If she is from excellent bloodlines , has proven herself in her field work and has all necessary clearances I'm sure someone would be willing to help. 
I am involved with some organizations but due to some of the negatively on this thread I will not be sharing that information at this time. I think most of you will respect that.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Thread drift toward Dana's post.

There are already charity groups out there that do exactly what Dana is suggesting. One is https://www.pawswithacause.org/. Responsible breeders have donated pups that grow up to be used in a breeding program. They also donate pups to be used as service dogs if they make it through the program. I would think many others do the same. These organizations to run successfully need a large amount of experienced volunteers in many different fields.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I attended my breeder's puppy party last August. Puppies were about 6 weeks old. She ended up keeping three, two for show dogs, and one that at the time was very tiny, so she kept her just in case she has health issues down the road. The other six went to pet homes, some being pet therapy.

At the time of the party, the people invited were close golden people to my breeder and prospective puppy owners. Nobody at that point was promised a puppy.

As I met and talked with the prospective owners, I learned a lot about them. A couple of them had recently lost their elderly goldens, another had a special needs child and this would be their pet. These people cried when they saw the puppies. I saw grown men do this as they picked them up and hugged them. I saw how this litter and these puppies were going to heal these people's broken hearts. It was very emotional for me. My 13 year old daughter had also helped whelped this litter, saving the very tiny one's life. I discussed my emotions with my breeder afterwards, because it was so beautiful, what I saw and experienced. She told me that in the 30 years she has bred and improved upon the breed, she also thinks that she also provides a service, a very important one, in providing pets for people that need them.

I took many pictures that day, but this one speaks to me in what I saw that day


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I would agree with you. At first I honestly didn't understand the reasoning behind why it would be so difficult to get. I now understand why a reputable breeder would be cautious and want some say in the decision making process. If I spent 30 yrs breeding outstanding dogs I wouldn't want someone to come along and breed an amazing bitch to a back yard dog and destroy what I has worked so long and hard to create. Then someone ends up with a dog that is not to standard and it would be linked back to my lines which could ruin a reputation quickly!
See, I have been listening and learning and have changed my thought on this after reading many posts on why that is important!
I think some have not seen this change in my thread or just didn't care to read it. I think this change has been clear without me pointing it out but I will throw it out there for all to read! 




ceegee said:


> SueD said:
> 
> 
> > like I mentioned, the dog may never be bred. She may not end up a good prospect for breeding so she gets spayed and MAYBE I look at adding an additional dog to my home, maybe not. What's really so wrong with wanting full registration as a possibility? (...)
> ...


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

That is an amazing story and a beautiful picture. Brought tears to my eyes. Amazing seeing how animals can heal a broken heart or calm a child. That is also an amazing organization! 



cubbysan said:


> I attended my breeder's puppy party last August. Puppies were about 6 weeks old. She ended up keeping three, two for show dogs, and one that at the time was very tiny, so she kept her just in case she has health issues down the road. The other six went to pet homes, some being pet therapy.
> 
> At the time of the party, the people invited were close golden people to my breeder and prospective puppy owners. Nobody at that point was promised a puppy.
> 
> ...


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

SueD said:


> If she is from excellent bloodlines , has proven herself in her field work and has all necessary clearances I'm sure someone would be willing to help.
> I am involved with some organizations but due to some of the negatively on this thread I will not be sharing that information at this time. I think most of you will respect that.


I really don't think anyone is going to be terribly disappointed that you don't share that information. You seem to post now just to talk about how badly you've been treated, and you are now affirmatively declining to provide any additional information. Which begs the question of why you continue to post if don't want to post substantively. 

You seem very young (or I am very old! Lol!  ), or at least some of your statements remind me of millennials I know, and they are young. You complain about negativity, but frankly, most of the negativity seems to be coming from you, at this point. And I think you have misunderstood people in a big way. 

LJack, just to pick one, has been super kind to you, but you have misunderstood her and lashed out at her, and still she was kind. I was admiring her patience with you. And envying it, too. I do not suffer fools well, and I wish I could be as patient and understanding and kind as Laura. Truly, you have misunderstood folks, and now you have your back up for no good reason. No one here is out to get you. Everyone is trying to be helpful.

And I'm happy to read that you are learning and taking in what folks are saying, even if it doesn't meet with what you were expecting. I'm still rooting for you. But no one here is your enemy.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I may have misunderstood some but others were pretty clear!! It's ok I will not respond to those posts. Some posts I take bits and pieces, some I ignore (now) , and others I understand every word they say.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Sue, what bloodlines do you consider to be "good"?


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

That is something I know very little about. I have yet to discuss bloodlines with a reputable breeder. I believe that is where finding a mentor will be helpful! I have talked to some backyard breeders who say they have amazing bloodlines but do not test. Do you have any suggested reading material? I am very willing to learn about this.


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## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

Can you explain more about your future breeding program? I've been reading through this thread as people respond (it's good information for me in the future) and I'm really curious. I know you said you wanted to get a female, title her, get her clearances and then possibly breed her, but are you going to train her for therapy (or whatever you called it) work? And the puppies - are you going to keep a couple (I presume the ones that seem the most biddable) and train them for therapy work/title them, get clearances and breed them? Are the rest going to go to pet homes (I don't know much about this but I'm assuming it's a lot like show litters, not every puppy in a litter is meant for the kind of work you're thinking about)? Or are they all going to go to a training organization of some kind and be trained there? 

And besides producing really good quality dogs, why would someone buy their future therapy dog from you when they can purchase a dog trained by a professional from a major organization? And have you ever trained a dog for the kind of work you're thinking of doing? You said you have a golden at home with a lovely temperament, do you do anything with him?

I hope you don't misunderstand this as a personal attack, because it's not. I suppose that first paragraph of questions isn't something you have answers to right now (don't count your chickens before they hatch I suppose - although I am very curious on how you plan to do all this) but the second paragraph is very important to me, as a person who buys puppies from breeders. As a buyer, those are the questions I want answers to, especially when it's your first breeder and you're a newbie in the dog world. I'm going to go on a limb here and assume that any potential mentor of yours or stud dog owner will want the answers to those questions too.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

I would be happy to visit with you!! 



aesthetic said:


> Can you explain more about your future breeding program? I've been reading through this thread as people respond (it's good information for me in the future) and I'm really curious. I know you said you wanted to get a female, title her, get her clearances and then possibly breed her, but are you going to train her for therapy (or whatever you called it) work? And the puppies - are you going to keep a couple (I presume the ones that seem the most biddable) and train them for therapy work/title them, get clearances and breed them? Are the rest going to go to pet homes (I don't know much about this but I'm assuming it's a lot like show litters, not every puppy in a litter is meant for the kind of work you're thinking about)? Or are they all going to go to a training organization of some kind and be trained there?
> 
> And besides producing really good quality dogs, why would someone buy their future therapy dog from you when they can purchase a dog trained by a professional from a major organization? And have you ever trained a dog for the kind of work you're thinking of doing? You said you have a golden at home with a lovely temperament, do you do anything with him?
> 
> I hope you don't misunderstand this as a personal attack, because it's not. I suppose that first paragraph of questions isn't something you have answers to right now (don't count your chickens before they hatch I suppose - although I am very curious on how you plan to do all this) but the second paragraph is very important to me, as a person who buys puppies from breeders. As a buyer, those are the questions I want answers to, especially when it's your first breeder and you're a newbie in the dog world. I'm going to go on a limb here and assume that any potential mentor of yours or stud dog owner will want the answers to those questions too.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> That is something I know very little about. I have yet to discuss bloodlines with a reputable breeder. I believe that is where finding a mentor will be helpful! I have talked to some backyard breeders who say they have amazing bloodlines but do not test. Do you have any suggested reading material? I am very willing to learn about this.


If you have inter-llbrary loan at your library, this is an excellent book:
https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Labrador-Breeding-Mary-Williams/dp/0854931589

It is not about Goldens, and it is written in a somewhat difficult language to get the hang of, because she is English and at least for me the terms are outdated- but it does explain levels of breeding and goals and methods. 
It is out of print, which is why I think you would have to ILL it. 
You aren't going to get specific bloodline info about Goldens since it's about Labs, but you might begin to understand some of the thought process a serious breeder uses.
To get specific Golden bloodline info, you really need to become involved in some aspect of the breed's purpose and through that involvement find people you can learn from. I mentor two women who I have been mentor to for decades- they have their own mentees now but still touch base with me often on discussions they themselves are having. By the same token, I am mentored by some of the breed's icons- or dinosaurs, depending on your perspective....but the amazing knowledge I am still gathering after nearly 40 years in this breed. You couldn't buy that knowledge, you have to be willing to be a sponge. I also have peers who are master breeders and the information discussed could not be acquired in any book, but that comes from involvement as well.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> stud dog owners would breed to this dog? Hypothetically would you?


I'm still thinking about whether I would let any of my boys service a girl from an organization or private breeder of dogs who will be bred. I lean to 'no' at this point in time because of the reasons others have mentioned but the biggest is potential misuse even by an organization. I DO tend to at least once every several years give a newbie a chance and I have let one of my boys cover the bitch if they strike me as having good motives and have not made prior mistakes in breeding. Of those, here are my horror stories: the gal who was so smart- really impressive- ties to a military PTSD dog community- well, that was disastrous. I am sorry to say that there's a bitch out there being bred, not by her, but by someone who had similar goals but the seeming fast $$ became more important to that woman- for which the original woman w ties is sorry, but she really has nothing to lose, so, 'sorry and I am filing bankruptcy so you should just sue me for damages' line...(so that would be the grandpup thing I mentioned earlier- that's the real fear for me).In her case, she had a contract she just needed to enforce so that she would be in compliance w my contract. She didn't want to- she felt her 'work' w PTSD dogs was more important than any legal document she agreed to with me. There was the gal who had a really nice bitch- every clearance there is, a DN title she did because she was told by someone she needed a title to get a CH stud, and she went the way of 'trained puppies' for $10k. And sold several on full. I do not believe any of them have been bred and I have established relationships with every puppy buyer so hope I can micromanage that group. And the gal who just reminded me of myself when I was her age, eons ago, when I was trying to get a nice bitch the first time around (I've been around a few times).... but without handholding, this gal let her whole litter get anemic and nearly die of whips, then ignored a potentially disastrous eye condition in a puppy, then put them in the garage and her husband ran over one... those are my horror stories and I have to live with them- and in all 3 cases, I am certain I am not the only sufferer since puppies either lost lives or were in dire threat of it, were bred indiscriminately, or were sold to people as something they were not, thereby hurting families. I would never be party to any of those scenarios. So, just like Goodwill, to whom I have sold several wonderful puppies but would not have sold to if they'd planned a breeding program, I am pretty much done trusting folks with my boys' genes which are some of my life's work and precious to me. It is simply not worth the risk. 
Of course for every horror story there is a wonderful success newbie story - but when I cannot count on my gut to predict which outcome will happen, I have to rely on traditional means, which essentially is to only cover girls who belong to known entities and to me, that's an enthusiast who has ties, history and a reputation for ethical behavior when no one is watching.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Wow, you have some serious knowledge! Tha ks for telling me about the book! I hope to find someone to mentor me with that kind of experiance! 



Prism Goldens said:


> SueD said:
> 
> 
> > That is something I know very little about. I have yet to discuss bloodlines with a reputable breeder. I believe that is where finding a mentor will be helpful! I have talked to some backyard breeders who say they have amazing bloodlines but do not test. Do you have any suggested reading material? I am very willing to learn about this.
> ...


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

Prism goldens- 
After all of that I am shocked you are still willing to give people a chance. you sharing that gives me a better understanding of what breeders have dealt with. I'm not sure why your story stuck out so much to me. Maybe it's the training aspect. 
I have to say that I don't think your training, showing or breeding should ever be more important than your word or signed contract. Sometimes your word is all you have.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

There is also a lot of knowledge if you do searches on this forum. LOTS of knowledge, and some success stories and some sad stories ( this is why many are so protective of their lines and the breed ).

If you find dogs or lines that you like, K9DATA.COM Home Page is always fun to read the pedigrees of our dogs and dogs we admire. You will be able to trace these dogs all the way back to the first dogs that created the golden retriever breed.

In addition, learn about all the health issues in this breed and how breeders are trying to breed their best to breed away from these issues. Also read up on the Golden Retriever Foundation Study, where there are 3000 golden retriever heroes, and every aspect of their life is being recorded to solve the health mysteries, especially the cancers that affect this breed.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There are about ten thoughtful seminars on Youtube with renowned dog people sharing their insights into breeding and breeding programs: 



. Despite what they are titled, each shares the wisdom gleaned over time of how to breed and why. They are worth a listen, even just to see how much breeders ask of themselves. 


Establishing real life relationships and learning from the ground up is the best way to start out in goldens. Very few of us were handed quality dogs on full registration; most of us worked our way to a foundation bitch or dog by learning how to groom, doing lower level titles, studying the breed standard( my mentor used to give me two quizzes a week on structure) , loving our goldens who were pets and not breeding dogs and accomplishing goals with them. . . so when someone seems like they want to be given a top bitch puppy on full registration without do any of those things to earn her, red flags raise rightly or wrongly. 

On the other hand, I am giving an absolutely beautiful puppy to a newcomer- well she has done a tremendous job with a beautiful golden in obedience and he is neutered now. She is diligent about classes and eager to learn and drink in everything about goldens. She attends events, reads everything, learns in leaps and bounds, applies what she knows to real titles. . . After watching her work so hard for three years with the golden she does have, I feel super confident in her level head . We need millennial breeders, we need a future.

There is a warm welcome for you in goldens! My dog friends and I have talked jokingly about now we are the sophomore class, now we are the senior class, now we graduated as we have gone along over the years. It is a joke but it is true. You have a peer group of serious golden people who have never bred, of breeders 1-5 years in, of breeders 5-10 years in and so forth. Becoming part of a peer groups is really important for one's own learning. 

The 100,000 comment is telling. that the culture is misunderstood. Some of us have been offered a sum like that from overseas for our dogs- it is background noise bc money is no match for a real passion. When a prospective buyer goes up in a price offer, most golden breeders will dig in their heels and say a quadruple no and be offended someone thinks they can be bought.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

SueD said:


> Prism goldens-
> After all of that I am shocked you are still willing to give people a chance. you sharing that gives me a better understanding of what breeders have dealt with. I'm not sure why your story stuck out so much to me. Maybe it's the training aspect.
> I have to say that I don't think your training, showing or breeding should ever be more important than your word or signed contract. Sometimes your word is all you have.


Agreed. Word is bond.
Why continue trusting? Because the breed is important to me. If I and others never give folks a chance, we are no different than the ones who do it all wrong. In order for the breed to continue and do so consistently well improving or at least maintaining, someone has to be willing. PLUS- we do need new breeders, there is a huge demand we cannot meet. It's such hard work raising puppies, we need others to be doing it well too. If there are no well-bred pups available to the pet market, those folks will go to the poorly bred puppies. And some of those will be bred. It'll be a downspiral and the breed doesn't need that..


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

You have gotten some excellent advise here. One other thing to remember when asking for a mentor is "*time*" it is a precious commodity for people. Breeders are just people with very full lives. Most work full time jobs have a family and then spend the rest of their time working and loving their dogs. When asking for a mentor your asking them to give you their time. Quite seriously most want to make sure your worth their time* first *before investing in you. Because they are doing just that. Investing their time and wisdom in you. Doing this will take away from their own lives! If your serious then getting out there and meeting people is more important then you realize. They would be doing this for free its not like your paying them so be worthy of it. Spend your time too.

Many a time people have invested their time and effort only to have the person they trusted turn their back on them, stab them in the back or worse. Once burned twice shy? Heck I know breeders that have been burned over and over and over again. Each time they take a chance when they share their lives. Do you know why? So they can do their best for this breed, to help others even when the help or criticism is hard that is how we learn.
Also be careful choose wisely learn about them see if their beliefs will work with you, that you are comfortable with their motivations and how they train and breed and love their dogs. You won't find this via an email your best chances are face to face meetings where you can see and hear the nuances of the words and expressions. The written word as shown very often in this thread can be read many different ways leaving people to draw their own conclusions when you do not know some one you can read them in an email all wrong and you may loose an opportunity to learn. Be opened minded give others the benefit of the doubt especially if your asking the same from them. Good luck I hope you find what your looking for.


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## SueD (Dec 7, 2016)

This is important information you are all sending me. Thank you!!
I have been told by several people to just buy overseas. Honestly , that scares me. I would have to get a personal reference from a knowledgeable breeder here in the states before I would ever consider that. I would be so afraid of buying from a puppy mill or a scam artist. In my adventure I have already ran into puppy flippers working with oversea sellers. Im sure there are some very good brokers out there as well. 
I'm going to speak honestly to you as a newbie for a minute.
I can see where a mellinial could get discouraged quickly and turn to backyard breeding. This statement is only meant for a few. Be kind to people that come in and have a dream even if you know it may not be realistic. Teach and guide that person and if they truly want to be in the breed they will see what you are saying in their own time. That my friends is someone worth spending your time on. 
I know I could still find an older dog. The issue then, in time , would be not having the support to find a good sire. Everyrhing that was offered in advice made since to me ( well other than the rude ones who were discouraging) I obviously had to prove to some here that I am serious. I am looking for that help! For those of you stepping in to help in thank you.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

SueD said:


> I know I could still find an older dog. The issue then, in time , would be not having the support to find a good sire. Everyrhing that was offered in advice made since to me ( well other than the rude ones who were discouraging) I obviously had to prove to some here that I am serious. I am looking for that help! For those of you stepping in to help in thank you.


Another benefit of having a mentor is when you are ready find that sire, your mentor will know which lines go best with theirs / yours. Whether you need to line breed or an out cross. Whether you need to add more bone, pigment or front. Many things that go on in making that decision. 

I have loved getting to know my dogs' parents, siblings, grandparents, great grandparents, uncles and aunts and even cousins. I see parts of my dogs', whether personality or physical features in them all. This is a really fun part.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

I own 4 Goldens that were purchased as older puppies (anywhere from 5 months to 15 months) who didn't make the breeder's cut for breeding or conformation. However, every one of these pups was sold with a limited registration, which was fine with me because I absolutely do not have the personality to raise a litter of puppies. Had any of these breeders offered a full registration I probably would have walked away, suspecting something odd was going on.

Be very cautious and do meticulous research if you find a breeder willing to sell an older pup on a full registration.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

SueD said:


> This is important information you are all sending me. Thank you!!
> I have been told by several people to just buy overseas. Honestly , that scares me. I would have to get a personal reference from a knowledgeable breeder here in the states before I would ever consider that. I would be so afraid of buying from a puppy mill or a scam artist. In my adventure I have already ran into puppy flippers working with oversea sellers. Im sure there are some very good brokers out there as well.
> I'm going to speak honestly to you as a newbie for a minute.
> I can see where a mellinial could get discouraged quickly and turn to backyard breeding. This statement is only meant for a few. Be kind to people that come in and have a dream even if you know it may not be realistic. Teach and guide that person and if they truly want to be in the breed they will see what you are saying in their own time. That my friends is someone worth spending your time on.
> I know I could still find an older dog. The issue then, in time , would be not having the support to find a good sire. Everyrhing that was offered in advice made since to me ( well other than the rude ones who were discouraging) I obviously had to prove to some here that I am serious. I am looking for that help! For those of you stepping in to help in thank you.


I don't think anyone on here wasn't attempting to teach & guide you. I'm not sure what you wanted us all to say. Go out & find a girl & start breeding? Your initial post talks about minimally the parents having clearances, hopefully for a breeding foundation your bar isn't set so low especially considering the goals you have in mind for these puppies. When I asked you about what lines you found good, you don't know, but it's a criteria for a 1yr old bitch you're seeking to have. You're running at risk of falling into the fringe, those who do clearances, have a great sales pitch/noble cause, but actually have no clue what they're doing. 

Everyone of the posts in this thread stressing the need to be active to get out & see vice relying on written word is to help you hone your own eye & help you determine what good is. When I was looking for my pup, I thought it would be easy, find a breeder w/ depth of clearances and titles & all was golden--but there comes into the temperament, trainability/biddability, interpretation of breed standard...none of which are apparent by looking at a paper record. I had to get involved in the breed & did so through my local club to see what actually appealed to me & would make a good partner. In order to understand whether or not your future girl is breeding material needs to come from an educated eye & that you simply have no foundation to evaluate from. In order to be an asset to your puppy families you need that foundation of knowledge & experience. Expecting a mentor to just do this for you when you're not able to put in the time (you've said a # of times you don't have time & can't travel) to do your homework is a tall order. You've been give many suggestions how to pursue your goals & how to build the foundation & gain experience & none of them point to a ready to breed bitch.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Just one final thought to share. Others have worded in other ways but I think it really needs repeating as its own thought/point. 

You really need to let go of thinking people as rude and letting that stop you from learning. 

Some of our best in every discipline are not particularly nice or welcoming, especially when you are an unknown. I have met many top breeders or exhibitiors and I mean top as in foundational to our breed are quite abrupt, blunt and can be perceived as cold. Though I have not built a relationship with them all the ones I have are quite worth it. Even the ones I have not, have taught me important things just by watching and researching.

Just because someone is nice and easy to talk to does not make them a great mentor.

The best mentor is one that will challenge you. Growth is not easy or painless. Stretching beyond yourself is not a comfortable thing. Embrace that growth is uncomfortable and challenge yourself to find a mentor who makes you think, expects more from you, and encourages you to do what is best not what is comfortable or easy. That would be a good mentor. And honestly the ones that have been in the breed for decades are notoriously crusty. They are straight talkin, no crap takin, usually one chance and your out type folks. 

You will be doing yourself a real disservice by entering conversations with the concept that any deviation from what you want to hear is rude and hence you will no longer listen to those people. 

That is a great way to stay right where you are and if I am not mistaken you don't want that.

This is a goal that is not for the feint of heart. It requires the ability to suspend your emotions and make rational and logical decisions. The fact that you have taken so personally and emotionally the responses here which are generally encouraging even though they are not what you wanted to hear makes me wonder how you would respond to a critique of a dog that is required to make sound breeding decisions. There is no perfect dog and it can be hard to hear the laundry list of faults and or fixes any breeding dog has.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

LJack said:


> Just one final thought to share. Others have worded in other ways but I think it really needs repeating as its own thought/point.
> 
> You really need to let go of thinking people as rude and letting that stop you from learning.
> 
> ...


Awesome post! My breeder, mentor and co-owner of my dogs tells my daughter and I straight as it is. Constantly critiquing us with the way we handle in the ring, the mistakes I have made in my training, even getting after me for keeping the toenails too long or when they are a pound or two over weight - but that is her job and the only way we are going to SEE the things that we don't see with inexperienced eyes. She is our coach, like any sports coach would coach their athletes, and it is my job to make sure dogs with her lines keep her good reputation. 

Even the owner of one of my dog's sire has called me up and coached me over the phone based on pictures and videos she has seen.


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