# Need help! Getting worried about aggressive puppy



## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

She isn't teething yet and she isn't really being aggressive either. She is playing with you as she would with litter mates. 
Time to start teaching her obedience. FYI, time outs don't teach puppies anything at all.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Hard to say without seeing the behavior, but this sounds like standard behavior for this age. Do a search here for threads on “aggressive puppy” and “land shark” and you’ll find tons of threads on this topic. 99% of the time, this is a passing phase that you just need to wait out. That said, there are ways to minimize the impact and make sure you come out the other side with a sweet dog who keeps her teeth to herself. The existing threads should have some helpful hints!


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

These little manic episodes are a fantastic time to teach your puppy to tug. Then you can start turning these episodes into training sessions where tugging is the reward.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

My answer from another "Aggressive Puppy" thread


SRW said:


> Yes, here is a suggestion I have posted several times.
> Some appreciate it, others are deeply offended. It has even been suggested that I be banned for posting such horrific advise.
> 
> The most effective way I have found to correct biting is to tempt the pup to bite and then jam my thumb in the pups mouth when he tries. I shove my thumb as far into the pups mouth as I can and press down on the back of the tongue while grasping his jaw for a couple seconds. It doesn't hurt a pup but it is unpleasant, it has to be or the pup will think it is a just a game. Wear gloves if you need to. You want to make the pup gag a bit and pull away from you (make him want to stop biting). Calmly say 'no no' or 'No Bite' as you do it. You want to communicate to the pup that it is his fault and that biting isn't fun.
> ...


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> teach your puppy to tug


Strikes fear in the hearts of field trainers.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

SRW said:


> Strikes fear in the hearts of field trainers.


Lol There are lots of people that do field and competition obedience that use tugging as a reward for OB. The dogs learn the difference early.

But for house pets, tugging is a great way to turn “manic episodes” into something productive.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> Lol There are lots of people that do field and competition obedience that use tugging as a reward for OB. The dogs learn the difference early.


There may be field trainers that use it as a reward but I have never met one. Sticking on birds can be an incurable issue with an otherwise promising field retriever. There are plenty of other rewards that don't have such negative risks.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

SRW said:


> Strikes fear in the hearts of field trainers.


You've got that right!


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Mmash said:


> I have an 11-week old Golden, who most of the time is very sweet. Usually in the morning and again early evening, she gets into really manic, aggressive behavior with me. Essentially, she's mauling me and frequently drawing blood. I give her at least 1/2 hour of running and playing several times a day and numerous chew toys/bones. I eventually have to give her a 10-minute time out in her crate after these manic episodes, which I hate doing. I want to use the crate only for scheduled naps and bedtime at night. I know she's teething, but it's getting concerning. I could use some insight into whether this is normal and ideas on how to handle it. Thank you.


At that age it isn't aggression, it's just a puppy with no manners installed yet. Goldens are a mouthy breed. We taught our pup not to bite pretty easily. It took a little time but every time she'd bite us we'd yelp LOUDLY like another puppy would if something hurt (don't say OW like a human). Then we'd turn our back or walk away and all attention and fun would stop. She learned pretty quickly that biting resulted in being startled and then the fun went away so it wasn't worth biting anymore.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

SRW said:


> There may be field trainers that use it as a reward but I have never met one. Sticking on birds can be an incurable issue with an otherwise promising field retriever. There are plenty of other rewards that don't have such negative risks.


That’s not my lane, so I’ll (mostly) stay out of it. I know Bridget Carlsen does it, but she is a truly exceptional trainer.

That being said, my point stands that tugging is a wonderful tool for pets that will never put a duck in their mouth.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

ArkansasGold said:


> That being said, my point stands that tugging is a wonderful tool for pets that will never put a duck in their mouth.


That is true. If the OP has no intention of using the dog for hunt/field work, no problem.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Mmash, as you can see we come at this subject from a variety of angles/perspectives but pretty sure we are all mostly in agreement that your puppy is a pretty normal Golden and not aggressive. I suspect we also agree that the behavior is also not acceptable in a Golden at this age and it's time to put a stop to it. So, don't panic. Be calm and don't let frustration get the best of you. 

What are your mornings like? Sounds to me like she is probably awake and feeling her oats. Head off the episode by not expecting too much of her during this energy burst, think about what is happening - are you all playing or are you trying to sit and drink your coffee or get some chores done? Start doing something different during this energetic period - nature walk or outdoor play. Look for the pattern. Is it during playtime? I would be sure I always had a big soft stuffed animal when sitting on the floor to play, let her know that she can put her teeth on the toy, not you. Use a stern tone of voice when you tell her "no bite - EH EH" and then tell her happily to play with the toy as you stuff that in her jaws  

In the meantime, start working twice a day on leash obedience. Use mealtimes as a few minutes of training too. All puppies get wound up but some need more help than others in learning self control. Putting teeth on humans when she's excited is a self control issue. It's also a respect issue. She needs to learn respect for you and obedience training and consistent boundaries will help with this. I can't encourage you enough to get enrolled in puppy class if you aren't already there. 

If you are working with her and aren't seeing a change in behavior over the next week or so even with implementing some of the ideas here, everytime she bites you, move quickly and curl her lip over her top teeth and apply firm pressure, release and move away. Not enough pressure to break skin but enough to get her attention and be unpleasant. She needs to figure out that it's not rewarding behavior. Be consistent. Start teaching some tricks like "kiss, kiss" where you spread some butter or a dot of peanutbutter on the back of your knuckles and you can teach her to "touch" her nose to your flat palm by the same method. Excellent skill. Be consistent and hang in there.


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## Mmash (Sep 19, 2021)

SRW said:


> She isn't teething yet and she isn't really being aggressive either. She is playing with you as she would with litter mates.
> Time to start teaching her obedience. FYI, time outs don't teach puppies anything at all.


How would you suggest I correct thus behavior? I engage her in tugging with chew toys as well as yelping when she bites and walking away. Any other guidance?


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Mmash said:


> How would you suggest I correct thus behavior? I engage her in tugging with chew toys as well as yelping when she bites and walking away. Any other guidance?


From my response in post #5

The most effective way I have found to correct biting is to tempt the pup to bite and then jam my thumb in the pups mouth when he tries. I shove my thumb as far into the pups mouth as I can and press down on the back of the tongue while grasping his jaw for a couple seconds. It doesn't hurt a pup but it is unpleasant, it has to be or the pup will think it is a just a game. Wear gloves if you need to. You want to make the pup gag a bit and pull away from you (make him want to stop biting). Calmly say 'no no' or 'No Bite' as you do it. You want to communicate to the pup that it is his fault and that biting isn't fun.
Repeat this a few times over a few days, being ready to either repeat the thumb in the throat or praise and pet if he doesn't try to bite.
Make it a clear choice, Bite = gag on a thumb or Don't bite = get petted and told he's the greatest pup in the world.

Most of the time the pup will switch to licking instead of biting.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

SRW said:


> FYI, time outs don't teach puppies anything at all.


In can teach them to hate the crate, which seems like a very odd training objective.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

GoldenDude said:


> In can teach them to hate the crate, which seems like a very odd training objective.


At best it teaches them nothing. At worst it causes a negative attitude. Being a “positive only trainer” 😎, If it doesn’t teach something good I don’t do it.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Episode 34: Time Outs for Dogs: Does Your Dog Need One?


Pro dog trainer tips on what you need to know about using a time out when you are training your dog.




dogsthat.com


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

When Rukie was an older puppy (reliably house trained) maybe 6 months old; he would constantly pull the hand towel off the stove handle. Since that is where I want it and no amount of leave it, or anything else was stopping him from getting it off and carrying it around. I finally started taking it away and sticking him alone in the bedroom for a little while every time he got it. That did put a stop to it after just a few times. So maybe time out did teach him something in this instance.


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## iPappy (Nov 30, 2021)

I'd stop the yelping when she bites. It might work on a strictly companion breed with virtually no drive at all, but for any puppy with an ounce of any kind of play/prey drive, it's going to amp them the heck up and make it worse.


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## Rockalicious (Nov 23, 2020)

iPappy said:


> I'd stop the yelping when she bites. It might work on a strictly companion breed with virtually no drive at all, but for any puppy with an ounce of any kind of play/prey drive, it's going to amp them the heck up and make it worse.


That's the way it was with my pup. The first few times he got startled and stopped, because he was confused. He quickly grew out of that and thought it was great fun that mom made a squeaky sound when he'd bite, just like all of his toys did. Score!


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Rockalicious said:


> That's the way it was with my pup. The first few times he got startled and stopped, because he was confused. He quickly grew out of that and thought it was great fun that mom made a squeaky sound when he'd bite, just like all of his toys did. Score!


It didn't work that way for us, it stopped the biting when we did it, but I'll keep that in mind in case any future puppies decide they like it for some reason!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> That’s not my lane, so I’ll (mostly) stay out of it. I know Bridget Carlsen does it, but she is a truly exceptional trainer.
> 
> That being said, my point stands that tugging is a wonderful tool for pets that will never put a duck in their mouth.


I'm poking my head in very briefly to say that if a puppy is already growling and sassing the owner, tug would not be my game to play with that pup.

I never want my pups to growl at me or learn to clamp down. I am not their littermate to play tug with. I'm boss dog.  I want them to know and be aware that when I reach for anything they have in their mouth.... their mouth opens and there's a reward involved.

Sadly got this way because our first two redheaded boys were pretty bad at clamping down, growling, snapping at hands, resource guarding, etc....we had an instructor thereafter who drilled into our heads and hearts that playing tug was a huge no-no. #1 dog was the one who snapped at my face and gave me a slightly crooked smile (I never held it against him). #2 dog was the one who had 3 serious bites (1 required stitches and 2 were kept secret from parents) before he was a year old. All dogs after them were sweet blondies who never growled their entire lives - could be breeding, but definitely had smarter owners by then.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

Megora said:


> I'm poking my head in very briefly to say that if a puppy is already growling and sassing the owner, tug would not be my game to play with that pup.
> 
> I never want my pups to growl at me or learn to clamp down. I am not their littermate to play tug with. I'm boss dog.  I want them to know and be aware that when I reach for anything they have in their mouth.... their mouth opens and there's a reward involved.
> 
> Sadly got this way because our first two redheaded boys were pretty bad at clamping down, growling, snapping at hands, resource guarding, etc....we had an instructor thereafter who drilled into our heads and hearts that playing tug was a huge no-no. #1 dog was the one who snapped at my face and gave me a slightly crooked smile (I never held it against him). #2 dog was the one who had 3 bites before he was a year old. All dogs after them were sweet blondies who never growled their entire lives - could be breeding, but definitely had smarter owners by then.


I have thankfully never personally met an aggressive golden, regardless of color, though I know they are out there, but like you, I was also advised against any type of tug game as well by more than one trainer. The only time I've really seen tug games advised was as a service dog task or with police or bite dog training so I suppose it has it's applications, depending on circumstances.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Hildae said:


> I have thankfully never personally met an aggressive golden


Lucky you.... 

Fwiw - after training adjustments were made, those dogs were better than gold. Which is why careful and knowledgeable training is on my mind any time you have people talking about aggressive puppies. If you think it's bad when they are 11 weeks old, try to give some thought as to what the dogs will be like when they are 7-8 months old and basically adult sized, etc.

And don't assume just doing puppy classes and training a couple times a week for obedience class is enough. It has to be all hands on deck in a household. Set rules for the pup. And set rules for family members.

Our #2 snappy dog with 3 serious bites was a CGC at 6 months (which basically tells you why I think those "titles" are meaningless). The turning point was when he went after my baby sister over reynolds wrap. Very quick snapping lunge and she had gashes on her back and the back of her legs which very likely needed stitches. She was 4-5 years old then. She still has scars. It scared the heck out of us older kids and made us get very serious about working with that dog and teaching the younger kids what not to do around the dogs. That dog never growled at any of us ever again. He was the type of dog who as a very old man had my niece crawling over him without any fear of him doing anything. It took serious effort. Things like tug, etc... could not be done with a dog like that.

Oh - should add. This dog was the one who got the "puppy from hell" label from my mom. He came home at 9 weeks old. By 10 weeks old he had this swirling piranha move to clear the space around him and keep people from reaching for him. His puppy teeth were like razors. >.<


ETA - on a more positive note for the OP. This dog I am describing above was my oldest sister's heart dog. Growing up, he slept right next to her in her bed. If she was sitting out in our kitchen, he was under her chair. If she was napping on the couch, he generally climbed up and perched on top of her to nap with her. He was her velcro dog. And after she got married and left him with us (because she didn't feel he would do well with too many drastic changes in his old years), he napped with my mom and went on walks with her. He's one of those that left a huge hole in all our lives when he passed.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> I'm poking my head in very briefly to say that if a puppy is already growling and sassing the owner, tug would not be my game to play with that pup.
> 
> I never want my pups to growl at me or learn to clamp down. I am not their littermate to play tug with. I'm boss dog.  I want them to know and be aware that when I reach for anything they have in their mouth.... their mouth opens and there's a reward involved.
> 
> Sadly got this way because our first two redheaded boys were pretty bad at clamping down, growling, snapping at hands, resource guarding, etc....we had an instructor thereafter who drilled into our heads and hearts that playing tug was a huge no-no. #1 dog was the one who snapped at my face and gave me a slightly crooked smile (I never held it against him). #2 dog was the one who had 3 serious bites (1 required stitches and 2 were kept secret from parents) before he was a year old. All dogs after them were sweet blondies who never growled their entire lives - could be breeding, but definitely had smarter owners by then.


Honestly… so many call puppies aggressive just for being puppies that I kinda lump them all together as exaggerating…

People just don’t understand puppies. Play growling is an entirely different thing than growling as a warning. If a puppy grabs your pants leg and starts tugging and growling and wiggling all over, that’s PLAY and nothing else. It’s not them being aggressive, they just don’t know any better. Puppies need to be taught to play *appropriately. *Quite frankly, more people would have a better relationship with their dogs if they would play with them like they are dogs, but *with some ground rules established. *No biting. No tugging on clothes. I get on the floor and play with my dogs all the time with nothing but my hands. They love it, but they are always respectful. I run a tight ship, but I also treat them like dogs. 

Tugging does not *cause* aggression. Bite work is an entirely different thing than tugging for play and as a reward in training. And yet those dogs still let go when well trained. They have to.

A dog can learn to tug AND release things on command. You just have to train them. You have to set boundaries and show them when things are ok and when they are not. Eevee can tug, tug, tug and then when I tell her to let go, she does. I rarely have to say it more than once and I never have to pry anything out of her mouth. Not even when she has things like baby bunnies in her mouth. Tugging and releasing are not mutually exclusive things. 

The assumptions about tugging on this thread are about as misplaced as never teaching a show dog to sit.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> Tugging does not *cause* aggression. Bite work is an entirely different thing than tugging for play and as a reward in training. And yet those dogs still let go when well trained. They have to.


No, but it can set up the wrong things when you combine that game with a pup who is already very disrespectful of the owner and throw in resource guarding behaviors.

As I said, you do not want to train a puppy how to clamp down and growl at its owner.

Maegan - you have a dog pretty much like mine. She does not have any of the bad temperament type traits that very many people end up with. My Bertie competed against her dad all while both dogs were growing up - could not have been a sweeter dog. You could play tug and all that with no harm done. That's not going to be true of all the dogs out there.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Playing Tug of War Without Encouraging Aggression | Preventive Vet


Play tug, not war! Learn how to teach your dog to play tug-o-war safely — for both of you! Check out these easy steps and safe tug toy recommendations.




www.preventivevet.com


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> Playing Tug of War Without Encouraging Aggression | Preventive Vet
> 
> 
> Play tug, not war! Learn how to teach your dog to play tug-o-war safely — for both of you! Check out these easy steps and safe tug toy recommendations.
> ...


Or how about just not?

How about teaching your dogs something useful instead?


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

For the most part I agree with you. I just tend to think that puppies being disrespectful has more to do with owners doing a bad job than anything else. Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see anything about the OP’s puppy resource guarding?

And thanks for the compliment about my girl. I do think her and your boys are pretty wonderful. 😍


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Putting my mod hat back on, this thread is starting to go downhill… let’s try to get back on the OP’s original question.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> For the most part I agree with you. I just tend to think that puppies being disrespectful has more to do with owners doing a bad job than anything else. Maybe I missed it, but I didn’t see anything about the OP’s puppy resource guarding


I'm probably reading between the lines, but without understanding what exactly is going on with the puppy leading to the owner complaining about "aggression" - I feel the need to lay it on thick that a piranha type golden pup CAN actually turn into a snappy adult if the owner isn't careful about correcting behaviors with the pup. Playing tug would not be my #1 suggestion in those cases.

Many people who use tug with dogs - successfully.... are people who are experienced trainers. And even there, they get complaints leveled at them if they get too disruptive at matches and trials. Believe me, I'm not the only one who seriously hates to have an intense malinois snarling a foot away from my dog - even if it's "playing" with its owner.🥴

What I would probably do is playing more "thinking" type games with a pup involving teaching it to use its nose, eyes, brain, etc... to find things and to fetch them. If a pup is mouthy, use it. Train the pup to bring things, etc. Without clamping down, etc.


ETA - or you know, my old stand by if a puppy is getting extra mouthy. Means they have to go outside to run around and/or poop.


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## iPappy (Nov 30, 2021)

Rockalicious said:


> That's the way it was with my pup. The first few times he got startled and stopped, because he was confused. He quickly grew out of that and thought it was great fun that mom made a squeaky sound when he'd bite, just like all of his toys did. Score!


At 10 weeks, my Pap was like "Oh, sorry I bit you." By 12 weeks she was like "I'm killing you! Awesome!"


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Megora said:


> Or how about just not?
> 
> How about teaching your dogs something useful instead?


Many sport dogs find tug highly motivating and reinforcing. My girl would rather work for a chance to tug than for treats. She has no problem dropping the tug when asked, or not going for the tug without permission (Of course, I had to teach her these things!) Almost every agility person I know, especially those at high levels, uses tug as one of their reinforcers. I’ve occasionally used it even to reinforce some rally behaviors, especially if I needed to “up” the energy of my dog (food tends to depress the energy).

Tons of info on the web about the benefits of teaching a dog to tug. Just Google it. Of _course_ it’s not appropriate for all dogs, no training technique is, but for the average dog, there are many benefits and the activity doesn’t deserve a blanket “don’t do it” judgement.









Is Tug-of-War Bad for Dogs? – American Kennel Club


Can playing tug-of-war lead to aggression in dogs? We chatted with animal behaviorist Dr. Mary Burch to find out the truth about this dog myth.




www.akc.org













The Benefits of Playing Tug With Your Dog


Contrary to myth playing tug with your dog will not make him aggressive. Dogs love a game of tug and it's one of the easiest ways to help him burn off some




www.puppyleaks.com


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

pawsnpaca said:


> Many sport dogs find tug highly motivating and reinforcing. My girl would rather work for a chance to tug than for treats. She has no problem dropping the tug when asked, or not going for the tug without permission (Of course, I had to teach her these things!) Almost every agility person I know, especially those at high levels, uses tug as one of their reinforcers. I’ve occasionally used it even to reinforce some rally behaviors, especially if I needed to “up” the energy of my dog (food tends to depress the energy).


It's definitely used by all the _agility _people.... 🥴

Funny thing - very big breeder/pro handler judge personally got after me to not use bait with my younger dog in the show ring because according to him - it made him too amped up. When I painstakingly dropped the bait, the judge gave the first place (big class, golden specialty) to my dog. Many people I train with use bait and "do it to get it" methods to pump up their dogs. Tug is used as well, generally to motivate a dog who is too tentative with the mouth work (ie dropping things because he wants the reward). For a dog that's daintily carrying a glove by the tiniest tip of the finger, tug games may be worth a try. Or motivating with more chase it down/release when its still in the air being thrown type retrieves. Can be a pretty depthy discussion of what is in your toolbox or mine or whatever. But talking about a puppy who is chewing up the owner's clothes and legs, that pups may need more redirecting vs clamp down and pull hard type stuff. Gently speaking...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

SRW not teaching "tug" because you worry about them sticking on birds is like not teaching a dog "sit" because you're afraid they'll no-go. 
With teaching "tug" appropriately you also teach a great "out" when the dog is super jacked up in a high state of arousal...exactly a skill you want in field work.
If they don't out while playing tug, what a wonderful opportunity to correct them that will bleed over to field work!

All of my dogs are rewarded in ring obedience training with tugging on...gasp...a BUMPER
I have NEVER EVER had a dog stick on a bird in testing or training. EVER. 
This is a myth perpetuated by people who have never tried it  
Don't be one of those people who offers advice on something they've never done...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Megora said:


> Many people who use tug with dogs - successfully.... are people who are experienced trainers. And even there, they get complaints leveled at them if they get too disruptive at matches and trials. Believe me, I'm not the only one who seriously hates to have an intense malinois snarling a foot away from my dog - even if it's "playing" with its owner.🥴


Ugggg yeah I really love not rewarding my dog because the guy next to me can't control his dog. 
If a dog can't be around another dog playing tug, it shouldn't be at an obedience trial.
Don't feed into this mantra of wanting obedience trials to be a trip to the library, or morgue. 
My dogs could give two shyts if a dog near them is playing tug with their owner...why would they?


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> SRW not teaching "tug" because you worry about them sticking on birds is like not teaching a dog "sit" because you're afraid they'll no-go.
> With teaching "tug" appropriately you also teach a great "out" when the dog is super jacked up in a high state of arousal...exactly a skill you want in field work.
> If they don't out while playing tug, what a wonderful opportunity to correct them that will bleed over to field work!


I've never had much trouble teaching drop or out. 7 to 10 week old puppies are usually very reluctant to give up a bird, bumper or toy. It does not take long for them to realize that they get to retrieve again as soon as the give it up.
Much more common is dropping the bird, especially upon returning to the line when there are other marks to retrieve.
It may well be mostly superstition but very few field trialers will play tug with there dogs or use it for a reward. I don't recall ever seeing anyone do it, not intentionally anyway. I have seen people dropped from trials for being rough on birds or sticking. Tug is about an eyelash away from that. 
I know teaching a dog to release a rope or towel is not difficult. Releasing the highest value treat of all (a bird) during a high stress situation is not the same. 
As I said, it may well be superstition but with all the built in rewards of field training, I see no value and much risk in playing tug with a retriever.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You are right -- not much use for tug in rewarding a retriever in the field. Other than pretty good reward for honoring (tug on leash as you leave the line!). That was Slater's big reward for honoring, he is a tug addict.
Tug is an AMAZING reward for ring obedience though...a sport with no external motivators (field work is ALLLLL external motivators)
Tug is better than food IMO because with tug a dog thinks he is killing something and the reward lasts for as long as the handler wants it to. Versus a food reward...swallow it in one second and it is gone, reward over. I want my dogs to swap over from food (shaping/luring) to tug as soon as possible (in obedience). 
I'm here to tell you there is no reason for a dog to want to stick on a bird just because their owner has played tug in other aspects of their life. That just doesn't make sense. I love taking a nap but not while I'm driving. If there is negative carry over it's because of an inconsistent trainer.


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## Pytheis (Mar 17, 2016)

K9-Design said:


> You are right -- not much use for tug in rewarding a retriever in the field. Other than pretty good reward for honoring (tug on leash as you leave the line!). That was Slater's big reward for honoring, he is a tug addict.
> Tug is an AMAZING reward for ring obedience though...a sport with no external motivators (field work is ALLLLL external motivators)
> Tug is better than food IMO because with tug a dog thinks he is killing something and the reward lasts for as long as the handler wants it to. Versus a food reward...swallow it in one second and it is gone, reward over. I want my dogs to swap over from food (shaping/luring) to tug as soon as possible (in obedience).
> I'm here to tell you there is no reason for a dog to want to stick on a bird just because their owner has played tug in other aspects of their life. That just doesn't make sense. I love taking a nap but not while I'm driving. If there is negative carry over it's because of an inconsistent trainer.


I 100% ageee with you and was quite shocked when I saw all these golden people saying tug is a horrible thing to do at any time. SRW, do you not think that dogs that do bite sports (I’ll say German shepherds because that’s my breed) aren’t in super high arousal when they’re on the sleeve? That they definitely don’t want to let go? But those dogs are taught to out immediately when told. They are very capable of behaving, even when they have hold of the highest value treat of all (bite sleeve/suit) during a high stress time.

Tug is one of the number one go-tos with German shepherds, and nobody believes it’s going to make dogs hang on and not want to let go. It’s actually the opposite. Tugging teachs an incredibly solid out command. My German shepherd had such a solid out command from playing tug that one time when we were on an off leash walk, he found a rotisserie chicken and picked it up. I said “Aus.” He spat it out so quickly and forcefully that it ended up a few feet away from him. Tug is a very useful tool in general. Sure, you may not need it for field training, but to condemn the activity entirely like I’ve seen here is just ridiculous. I’m shocked that a breed so biddable and intelligent wouldn’t be able to learn when to grab, to hold, and when to let go.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> If there is negative carry over it's because of an inconsistent trainer.


I don't think carry over is the concern as much as people worried that their dog may have a natural inclination to stick on birds and they would rather avoid doing anything to encourage it or bring it to the surface.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

SRW said:


> I don't think carry over is the concern as much as people worried that their dog may have a natural inclination to stick on birds and they would rather avoid doing anything to encourage it or bring it to the surface.


Giving them birds to retrieve is what encourages is or brings it to the surface, not playing tug with toys.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

K9-Design said:


> All of my dogs are rewarded in ring obedience training with tugging on...gasp...a BUMPER


Oooo. I’m going to try this when we go for CDX. I’ve tried many other things to tug on, but her favorite is bumpers and I don’t usually let her tug on them for some idiotic reason.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

So more to this...
How many dogs who are pro trained at field trials, have a problem with sticking on birds?
A fair number. A fair enough number that people sit around and worry about it happening with their dog.
Enough that pro trainers (and many amateurs) advise never playing tug with a dog, to discourage it.
If all these dogs who are never allowed to play tug develop sticking...then maybe the tug has nothing to do with it.

I'll give another example. Back in the good old days in obedience trials, the Open (middle) level required group stay exercises where a dog had to do a sit stay for three minutes, immediately followed by a down stay for five minutes, all while the handlers waited out of sight, outside the ring. Well, MANY MANY MANY dogs learned, if you lay down on the sit, you can have a nice rest for 2 minutes and 30 seconds and nothing happens. As a handler you are NOT allowed back into the ring early to correct your dog, or remove him, or anything that would prevent him or dissuade him for laying down on the sit. Laying down on the sit is an automatic failure and you do not receive a qualifying score that day. For dogs campaigned to their obedience championship and beyond this was a HUGE problem. MANY obedience careers were halted because the dog learned to do this, and it's very difficult to correct. Many dogs suffered abuse in the name of training to get them to stop laying down. 

I have a friend with multiple OTCH dogs. Very accomplished trainer. Her last dog was still competing in this era of long sits & downs. My friend would NEVER, even in the kitchen for a cookie, ask her dog to lay down when it was in a sit position. In the ring, she would stand her dog first before commanding it to lay down. She never, ever, never wanted her dog to think it could lay down from a sit position, in the effort of "avoiding" the dog learning to do this and thus lay down on the long sit in the ring. Now really. That is ridiculous. Dogs naturally know how to lay down regardless of what position they are in before they do it. 

What problem do you think my friend's dog developed? You guessed it...

Give dogs a little more credit of how intelligent they are. Dogs do what works for them.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> So more to this...
> How many dogs who are pro trained at field trials, have a problem with sticking on birds?
> A fair number. A fair enough number that people sit around and worry about it happening with their dog.
> Enough that pro trainers (and many amateurs) advise never playing tug with a dog, to discourage it.
> ...


None of your points a wrong. That doesn't change the fact that you would have better luck selling ice cubes to Eskimos than convincing field trainers to play tug with retrievers.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

They have no reason to play tug, so I would never try to convince them of that. Trust me I've had plenty of trainers look at me sideways if they know I do. I don't care if someone else plays tug I just don't want them telling me not to when they have no experience with it and I do


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Ugggg yeah I really love not rewarding my dog because the guy next to me can't control his dog.
> If a dog can't be around another dog playing tug, it shouldn't be at an obedience trial.
> Don't feed into this mantra of wanting obedience trials to be a trip to the library, or morgue.
> My dogs could give two shyts if a dog near them is playing tug with their owner...why would they?


 

Look - I've gotten yelled at because my dog shifted position in his crate too many times while somebody was doing a utility run in the ring in front of us. That to me is beyond stupid to expect utter silence while you are working in the ring. I'm not suggesting that trials be very quiet. I remember being a novice A person and competing in a ring right next to a conformation ring - OUTSIDE. And yes, I'm the same person flipping out about an upcoming trial for a very green dog in a barn on loose dirt, but totally different. My dogs are not fluffed by whatever people do outside the ring. If there's rewarding going on in the next ring, I don't care other than it's difficult to hear the judge, blah blah. 

But here in Michigan and down in Toledo, you have very cramped trials where stuff happens. I've seen dog attacks happen at the Flint trial - usually because the dogs are crammed together in very close proximity with one another. I've also seen stuff happen down in Toledo on the very rare occasion that I've been there. And not to mention the bonus that people are sitting quite close to the rings where dogs are working. 

If a dog fight happens, there's new rules from AKC to worry about- it's not really my concern. But probably the concern for all the people who have very reactive dog breeds or dogs period. And it's a shame to have them set up by a dog that sounds like trouble.

My personal issue is I'm very protective of my dogs and any snarling near them sets me on edge because I've had a dog attacked at a conformation show before when I was sitting there glazed over. One minute I was just watching what was going on in the ring + sleeping with my eyes open, and the next minute my 70# dog was in my lap because a lab abruptly lunged at him snarling. Likewise, I've had trials where I'm warming my dog up in an open space and getting in a mindset or whatever and had random soft crates that appeared empty and abandoned (no owners in sight) literally move a couple feet while the dog inside lunged at us snarling (obedience bred golden retriever inside, btw). <= I had flashbacks to this when somebody with a golden retriever was spinning him around with a tug toy in front of us while the dog was snarling up a storm. I reacted like a toy dog person instinctively by practically clutching my dog to my bosom while looking at the person in horror. <= It's funny thinking about my reaction now, but I was not terrible wrong to immediately assume some dog was going after mine and I needed to protect my bubba.

If your dog is a very polite and quiet while tugging - go for it. 

If your dog is snarling like a pitbull and you feel the need to go spinning around like it's Sound of Music and you are in meadow somewhere (LOL) - take it outside?


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

Megora said:


> But here in Michigan and down in Toledo, you have very cramped trials where stuff happens. I've seen dog attacks happen at the Flint trial - usually because the dogs are crammed together in very close proximity with one another.


Why would you go there? If there was a particular field trial where “stuff happened” I would not go and I doubt many others would either.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Obedience trials everywhere are crowded. 
Polite, quiet tugging is....boring. 
It sounds like it's you that has a hangup about the tugging dogs, not your dogs.
Obedience people will find any excuse under the sun why their dog messes up or feels uncomfortable or whatever, any reason other than he's not trained or he's got a shaky temperament.
I'm not saying your dogs are untrained or squirrely by nature (I've never seen them in person!), I'm saying I would advise you not to fall into the trap that others around you may have adopted of looking for external reasons why their dog doesn't perform at a trial. There's always gonna be the steward with heavy perfume, the collapsing crate, the kid with a hotdog, the person with the annoying dog, the lighting, the wind and the phase of the moon.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Obedience trials everywhere are crowded.
> Polite, quiet tugging is....boring.
> It sounds like it's you that has a hangup about the tugging dogs, not your dogs.
> Obedience people will find any excuse under the sun why their dog messes up or feels uncomfortable or whatever, any reason other than he's not trained or he's got a shaky temperament.
> I'm not saying your dogs are untrained or squirrely by nature (I've never seen them in person!), I'm saying I would advise you not to fall into the trap that others around you may have adopted of looking for external reasons why their dog doesn't perform at a trial. There's always gonna be the steward with heavy perfume, the collapsing crate, the kid with a hotdog, the person with the annoying dog, the lighting, the wind and the phase of the moon.


My dogs have nothing really to do with it nor does it have anything to do with their performance at a trial.

*I'm the one* *that does not like snarling around them* because if I'm not watching you or paying attention to random people around me. I will react the same way if I hear what sounds like an aggressive dog near mine but just playing. It's very stressful because I don't want my dog attacked and scarred for life like a friend's OTCH dog apparently was. *And I'm not the person you need to worry about*. I don't think I've ever formally complained about anyone at a trial or training building. Even a time when a formal complaint should have been made about a judge, I wasn't the one who did it other than being bent out of shape about the judge. The club member I spoke with privately literally went and made the formal complaint. But there's plenty of other people who _literally _forced the whole sport to change because of how protective they are of their own dogs (bye bye stays). 


Funny thing to add - has nothing to do with the current subject, but thinking of how my dogs would "react" to somebody else's aggressive dog. I was coming home from a long walk yesterday evening and walking down the middle of our street (to keep them from marking mailboxes) and saw our neighbors with their aggressive dobie coming up the street. The owner is old and arthritic and practically looks like she's only 4 feet tall when she's walking that dog. And he started lunging and snarling at my dogs. <= I literally steered 50 feet to the side and up a neighbors front hill to avoid any interaction with the owners or their dog (the owners are weirdos). My dogs had no idea why we went all the way up that hill, other than thinking it was fun and they were more focused on me anyway because we'd reached a point where I normally take their collars off and let them race each other the rest of the way home and they couldn't figure out why I hadn't done that yet.


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## SRW (Dec 21, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> Obedience people will find any excuse under the sun why their dog messes up


Not exclusive to obedience people. It is easier to come up with excuses than it is to train better and smarter. Some will always choose the easiest path.


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## CookieBug (5 mo ago)

Sounds like witching hour. Ours did the same thing! It gets better as they grow up


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## PiperRoseMom (Jun 4, 2019)

cwag said:


> When Rukie was an older puppy (reliably house trained) maybe 6 months old; he would constantly pull the hand towel off the stove handle. Since that is where I want it and no amount of leave it, or anything else was stopping him from getting it off and carrying it around. I finally started taking it away and sticking him alone in the bedroom for a little while every time he got it. That did put a stop to it after just a few times. So maybe time out did teach him something in this instance.


We used "time out" on Piper when she would get too "wild" during play and not listen to "all done" and "time out has worked very well for us. She is now almost 2 (Nov 2022) and if we say "time out" for for some reason she stops the behavior immediately. When she was very young the time out would be in her large wire kennel and when she got older it is now in our mudroom with the dog gate closed (for 5-10 minutes).
For us basically, "time out" was just a break in the unwanted behavior and and a bit of time for her to calm herself.


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## PiperRoseMom (Jun 4, 2019)

Mmash said:


> I have an 11-week old Golden, who most of the time is very sweet. Usually in the morning and again early evening, she gets into really manic, aggressive behavior with me. Essentially, she's mauling me and frequently drawing blood. I give her at least 1/2 hour of running and playing several times a day and numerous chew toys/bones. I eventually have to give her a 10-minute time out in her crate after these manic episodes, which I hate doing. I want to use the crate only for scheduled naps and bedtime at night. I know she's teething, but it's getting concerning. I could use some insight into whether this is normal and ideas on how to handle it. Thank you.



Your puppy is SO NORMAL !! 😁 Just look for tips on how to navigate this "land shark" stage. AND remember every puppy and owner is different. The "yelp" never worked for our pups. I just got them more excited to "play wild". WE used the "stuff and toy in her mouth and tell her to bite toys only" and short time outs if she got too out of control and wouldn't listen to the stop /all done command. 
Once you get through this stage , Golden Life is THE BEST !! 
Our Piper is the 6th Golden we've had over the years.🐕


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