# ALPHA ROLL - why not?



## Doodle (Apr 6, 2009)

I am not a trainer, but the first basic obedience class we attended with Brady was taught by someone who believed in the "traditional" training techniques. He recommended alpha rolling Brady when he was 4 months old to address his mouthing. Figuring he knew more than I did (and this was before I found this wonderful forum), we did this, and let me say that not only DIDN'T it help the mouthing, but only made Brady's behavior worse because he became more reactive. After a few weeks with negative results, I smartened up and went in search of another trainer who used positive training, and it quickly turned things around.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

solinvictus said:


> Back in the 1930's and 1940's behavior scientist of that time studied wolves, and made assumptions that using an alpha roll was an acceptable way to help teach/train dogs.
> 
> Today many behavior scientists have changed their stance on the assumptions made in the past.
> 
> ...


You explained that very well! Thank you.


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## liero133 (Aug 23, 2009)

I believe in being "pack leader", but that doesn't mean I pin the dog down all the time. I've pinned my dog down once (not in a way hurting her or while being angry or antyhign, just firmly layd her down). I did that when she was younger, and showed aggression protecting food. I've never had to do it again, and from I can tell she trusts me with her life. Believing in the pack leader/alpha dog method can mean lots of different things. To me, it means being a constant safety figure. A pack leader is there to provide a safe environment for the other dogs. The pack leader NEVER acts unfair or hurts the other dogs etc... yet the pack leader sets boundaries, and in todays modern life those boundaries (for me) just means that the dog has to listen, accept the fact that you can take objects from him/her, not be allowed to jump out of the car when you open the door (for their own safety) etc.... Then there's the idiots who take "pack leader" to a totally wrong level, and that's where creating fear comes in. If someone thinks alpha dog means putting the dog to the ground if he looks at you wrong, or in a more specific example jumps out of the car without permission, (i think) you're using it totally wrong. (Just to take the example with the car, if your dog does jump out without permission, as pack leader, i would never get angry, but just go get the dog while being calm and firm, leading the dog back into the car, and try again. That's the pack leader. The same way you don't pin a dog if he barks, jumps on you, pees in the house etc... The really BAD pack leaders with hit the dog if he pees in the house, which is mind blowing. ***. Do you hit your baby when he wets his daiper... no.. In my mind, there's NOTHING wrong with being alpha dog, just use it right, don't be a douche about it. An alpha dog doesn't instill fear.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Whenever I read about this 'alpha roll' stuff, I always think about the time when a vet decided that he was going to try it with my last GSD, Alomar. It's too bad that no one was videotaping that incident - it would have been a perfect training aid for showing exactly why you DON'T do that. Thank god Alomar had a good level of self-control and listened well enough that I was able to call him off and get him under control. Otherwise, that vet would have been seriously injured.

I don't have any links, but one of my favorite professional trainers, Patricia McConnell, addresses this in her book "The Other End of the Leash." One of the best books I've ever read.

I really wish this nonsense would be put to bed, once and for all, but as long as we have celebrity trainers out there advocating it, I don't see it happening.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I've actually stopped using "alpha" and "dominance" when I talk about dog training. They carry so many associations with manhandling dogs that whatever usefulness they have is eclipsed by the hype and the misinformation.

Dogs look for leadership, and humans who provide it have good relationships with their dogs. Letting your dog do whatever it feels like actually makes the dog miserable too! However, the big caveat is that a lot of the "alpha" training people do is totally misguided and based on fear. I'll handle puppies in play, and I might pin them for a sec before I let them up to bounce around, just like an older dog might do with a pup. However, I don't think for a second that pinning a puppy makes me a "pack leader," and doing it as an aversive is very confusing to a pup.

There was a time I used the "alpha roll" as a form of punishment (I called it "dominance"), but I found it simply made the dog nervous when he thought I was angry. It didn't actually help extinguish unwanted behaviors, and it didn't teach him to look to me for guidance and instructions. 

Grown dogs only pin each other when they're playing (a context that's useless for discipline) or when they're trying to kill one another. There have been many times on this forum alone when an adult dog bit an owner who was trying to "roll" it to show "dominance." The dog bit because it regarded the roll as a threat to its safety; because of previous rolls, there was fear instead of trust, and that final roll triggered a defensive reaction.

I see TV dog trainers forcibly holding or pinning dogs, and the dog's body language screams of panic and fear. When the dog finally stops struggling, the trainer says "See! He's accepted my leadership! He sees me as an alpha!" I think the dog has moved from one defensive tactic (struggling) to the next (lying still) in order to avoid being hurt or killed. The dog isn't feeling "calm and submissive." He's feeling terrified and out of options. The trainer has gotten a temporary change in behavior at the cost of the stability in the dog's personality.


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## mist (Jun 23, 2007)

:appl::appl:


tippykayak said:


> I've actually stopped using "alpha" and "dominance" when I talk about dog training. They carry so many associations with manhandling dogs that whatever usefulness they have is eclipsed by the hype and the misinformation.
> 
> Dogs look for leadership, and humans who provide it have good relationships with their dogs. Letting your dog do whatever it feels like actually makes the dog miserable too! However, the big caveat is that a lot of the "alpha" training people do is totally misguided and based on fear. I'll handle puppies in play, and I might pin them for a sec before I let them up to bounce around, just like an older dog might do with a pup. However, I don't think for a second that pinning a puppy makes me a "pack leader," and doing it as an aversive is very confusing to a pup.
> 
> ...


:appl::appl:


I have never once use an alpha roll, i don't hit or yell at my dogs, they see me as the leader, after all i provide their food,  they wait to eat till i tell them to take it, they wait at doors or in the car until i tell them it's ok to get out. I have only ever used positive training. They roll over when asked when I want to groom or see it the girls are coming into season, yes I'm lazy like that, Yes Oliver my first ever dog has guarding issues with his food, (i didn't know better) but all it takes is me to tell him to leave it and I'm free to do as I please with his food, bones etc


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

We trained with a program with Belle that taught this. They worked with assertive aggressive dogs primarily. While a LOT of their training philosophies I did not engage in wholeheartedly (I don't have an A/A dog) I understand the thought behind it and the time it should be used. I don't think I have ever met a golden retriever not even my anti golden dog, that needed it. I have seen other dogs that needed to be "put in their place". In those situations I must admit they were owners who picked the WRONG dog for their skill level, and to avoid being hurt these people had to learn to be dominate over their dogs.

In training with them at the beginning they demonstrated how to do a roll with Belle (my lab) she was NOT having any part of it! With two people holding her she got away! That was the first and last time we did it. Now I did train her to "allow" me to put her on her back and rub her, squeeze her toes, pull her tail etc. But the key word was 'allow'. We worked together, and developed a trust partnership. 

My dogs see "alpha rolls" as belly rubs


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I want to add one thing, in the cases I saw it needed they were "re training" not initial training. The dogs were OUT OF CONTROL, and bound to hurt someone. In my opinion those dogs scared me, and I saw them as candidates for euthanasia. Did I see it 'work?' in some cases yes, it gave the handler confidence to handle their dog. In some cases no it did not.


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## Deuce (Aug 8, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> I've actually stopped using "alpha" and "dominance" when I talk about dog training. They carry so many associations with manhandling dogs that whatever usefulness they have is eclipsed by the hype and the misinformation.
> 
> Dogs look for leadership, and humans who provide it have good relationships with their dogs. Letting your dog do whatever it feels like actually makes the dog miserable too! However, the big caveat is that a lot of the "alpha" training people do is totally misguided and based on fear. I'll handle puppies in play, and I might pin them for a sec before I let them up to bounce around, just like an older dog might do with a pup. However, I don't think for a second that pinning a puppy makes me a "pack leader," and doing it as an aversive is very confusing to a pup.
> 
> ...


Well said. I've trained for decades and dogs DO need a clear leader, but you can provide that leadership in a positive fashion. Oversimplified, but things like no food from the table, dog eats after you and waits for his food, no dog on furniture, dog follows and doesn't lead - these kinds of things provide leadership much more so than "pinning" or such.

I've trained mostly large, powerful breeds for service work (K9, narcotics, search and rescue, etc.) working with Belgian Malinois, German Shepherds and such and most recently, Rotties. This may seem obvious, but what I have found is that the more powerful breeds need more leadership. The more submissive breeds (such as Goldens) need less. And within this generalization, individuals will need more or less depending on personality.

So, in short, lead through action and tailor your leadership to the specific dog you have.

JMO.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Here's the thing.

Ethologists have since found out that those original wolf studies are flawed -- the whole idea that wolves form packs and have a leader, etc. They were done on *captive* wolves in a situation where wolves from different "families" were forced to live togehter. That's why the hierarchy was forming and why there were more incidents of aggression, etc. Rather than a heriarchy-based pack, groups of wolves usually consiste of the breeding pair and its offspring w/o a lot of outsiders who need to jockey for "top dog" position. Check out current work of David Meech and Ray Coppinger to learn more.

Regarding an Alpha Roll specifically, wolves (or dogs) don't physically roll each other. The alpha will posture to a subordinate animal and the subordinate animal willingly submits as a means of diffusing conflict. SO, when we try it on dogs, we're basically *forcing* them into the position that they are designed to understand to mean "no conflict here!" It's all ass-backwards to them when we try it! Especially when owners do it in an angry way. Plus, nevermind the fact that we're awfully inept at reading the subtle body language that dogs are masters of, so usually, as someone is in the act of doing the alpha roll, the dog is SCREAMING signals of submission or appeasement at the dog (lip licking, averted gaze, etc., etc.) and we just ignore them. The dog ends up like, "WHAT THE HELL? I used all my best moves to diffuse this conflict and it didn't work!" --- which is why many dogs later turn to an aggressive response in self defense after having been alpha rolled a time or two.


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