# Recherche Goldens near Roanoke, VA



## GoldenAlexis

Is anyone familiar with this breeder of English/British goldens?


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## MillysMom

There are a lot of red flags on that website. First, the dogs seem to all only have preliminary clearances (I haven't checked their ages yet, but I would not be surprised if some are under 2 years). You should never buy a dog that does not have all of its clearances (prelim is not good enough). Second, any breeder that advertises English Cream is simply using a marketing ploy and trying to take your money. Third, the pedigrees of these dogs are nothing to write home about. Fourth, the dogs are not the best looking and for the money they probably charge you could get much better. Fifth, another marketing ploy - they are trying to say English Golden Retrievers are healthier and less prone to health problems than American.

I would not give this person my money if I were you. If you are looking for the European type golden, and a lighter color there are reputable breeders out there. Tanglewood Goldens (near Charlotte, NC) has a wonderful reputation, and is not that far from Roanoke. 

I went to college in Roanoke and it always amazed me how many people would spend thousands of dollars to purchase dogs from pet stores and unscrupulous breeders in that city. I know there are surely lots of people who don't, but that was the first time I really was exposed first hand to the bad sides of dog breeding, and I saw a lot of it there.

I encourage you to read the Puppy Buyer Fact Check on this forum. There are lots of great tips!


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## sammydog

I have not heard of them, nor have I met any dogs from them. What I can offer is a check of the available health information from OFA

The sire for all their planned litters (total of 3):
A Step Ahead of Clear Passion "Max"
AKC: SR49209003
Birthdate: Jan 7 2008
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1355367#animal

He is only 18 months old and only has his preliminary clearances for hips and elbows listed on OFA AND his prelims for his hips are rated FAIR. No other clearances are listed. Please note that according to OFA there is a "76.9% reliability for a preliminary grade of fair being normal at 2 years of age" 
http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html 
The dam for their planned litter in September is:
Kamilla A Comitate Aureo "Amalie"
AKC: SR48288803
Birthdate: Oct 31 2007
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1355368#animal

She is currently 19 month old and also only has her preliminary clearances for hips and elbows listed on OFA and her prelims for hips are rated FAIR. (see note above)

If you strictly go by the GRCA Code of Ethics this breeder raises a lot of red flags... The dogs are not two years of age. According to OFA (that is all I checked) they do not have all their recommended clearances.
http://www.grca.org/thegrca/code.html


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## Ljilly28

They seem like they are just starting out?


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## HaliaGoldens

Ljilly28 said:


> They seem like they are just starting out?


That's what I thought too, since their dogs are all so young, but then in their "about us" section it says "Recherche Goldens has been breeding since 2004". Where are the other dogs that they were breeding for the past five years? I also find it interesting that they say "We wanted to purchase the best English Goldens in the world and searched hundreds of European breeders and found the best breeders in Europe at the time." I think this is a ridiculous statement, because I know some excellent breeders in Europe and the UK that would definitely not agree that Golden Duck and those other breeders are anywhere near the "best". It should probably say something more like "We searched hundreds of breeders before we found one that would ship their puppies to us to be bred when they're still too young and without clearances, etc." Just my thoughts on the topic...


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## tippykayak

There are outright lies on that website and in their classified ads for puppies:

"We have the highest quality Golden Retrievers on the East Coast and most likely all of the US."

"The incidence of cancer among English bloodlines is significantly lower than in the American lines." This claim, incidentally, is based off one British Survey and one GRCA survey from 1999, as is their claim that European Goldens live longer. The British survey, incidentally, begins with this disclaimer: "The results of this survey and particularly the breed-specific analyses 
should be interpreted with caution. The overall response rate was only 24% with breed-specific response rates from 4.5% to 64.7%." The Golden Retriever response rate, by the way, was 16.4%.

"Hip Dysplasia and Elbow Dysplasia are also much more common in American Golden Retrievers than in English-type Golden Retrievers." Proof please?

And they say, "Hip dysplasia is very common in the breed; when buying a puppy in the US the parents should be examined by the OFA for hip disease," even though their one stud isn't old enough for OFA clearances! He has prelims (FAIR), but not real clearances.

There is some very ugly deception taking place on their website, geared towards uneducated puppy buyers. I find that level of manipulation more disturbing in some ways than people who simply breed too many litters at a go.


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## tippykayak

PS - They peddle NuVet too. Why am I not surprised?


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## Bogey's Mom

tippykayak said:


> PS - They peddle NuVet too. Why am I not surprised?


Can you elaborate on this please? Our breeder and first vet pushed the supplements, so we did they for 6 months. Then we switched vets and were told to throw them away.


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## tippykayak

Bogey's Mom said:


> Can you elaborate on this please? Our breeder and first vet pushed the supplements, so we did they for 6 months. Then we switched vets and were told to throw them away.


They're supplements. They have a bunch of ingredients that may or may not improve dogs' health. They probably don't hurt dogs, but they're also not magical, and there's no solid science or basis in fact for their claims. Some of the statements are really just pseudo-scientific flimflam babble, and some of them are wildly overstated claims that utterly lack basis in fact.

For example: "Major considerations in formulating NuVet Plus™ were the human grade quality of ingredients and their nutritional values, as well as the bio digestibility and utilization into the cellular framework." That doesn't actually mean anything. You could say you gave your dog an ounce of vegetable oil, since it's human quality, precisely measured, bio digestible (aren't all foods bio-digestible?) and used in cells.

Or, "NuVet Plus™ will combat the onslaught of free radicals in our companion pets." Free radicals are necessary for life functions to take place. Yes, certain kinds of free radicals in certain situations have been linked to debilitating diseases, and there's some evidence that antioxidants in foods can help, but there's no evidence at all to suggest that NuVet in particular would do that better than the antioxidants that are already present in your dog's food or in a cup of blueberries, for that matter.

They seem to be pushed as "only available through top breeders" by some of the for-profit breeders I've seen online, and they often come with audacious claims about improving a dog's health and longevity. However, you can certainly buy them directly from NuVet, and they're spectacularly expensive.

In short, they're snake oil for the pet lover. Like the Recherche Goldens website, they play on peoples' fears for our dogs' health and take their money in exchange for no verifiable reduction in the likelihood of cancer and other health problems.

Boy am I angry about this breeder and these supplements.


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## Bogey's Mom

Oh I see!!!


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## AcesWild

http://www.recherchegoldens.com/RechercheWarranty.pdf

Buyer Agrees:
#3 is stupid


Breeder Agrees:
#7 Does not garuntee temperament, it's a golden retriever, there should be some consistency in their lines.
#8 yeah...ooookay...
#9 and #10 BS sorry nothing nice to say about that

The 7 things that void garuntees
#5,6, and 7 are just stupid.

*Runs fast as possible*


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## tippykayak

AcesWild said:


> http://www.recherchegoldens.com/RechercheWarranty.pdf
> 
> Buyer Agrees:
> #3 is stupid
> 
> 
> Breeder Agrees:
> #7 Does not garuntee temperament, it's a golden retriever, there should be some consistency in their lines.
> #8 yeah...ooookay...
> #9 and #10 BS sorry nothing nice to say about that
> 
> The 7 things that void garuntees
> #5,6, and 7 are just stupid.
> 
> *Runs fast as possible*


Oh...I didn't see that. So if you don't feed the vitamins, your warranty is void?

Make sure you use our order code when you reorder!


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## AcesWild

As a comparison, I would look at these dogs and see if you notice a difference.

They offer a lifetime garuntee on many things the dogs are probably more expensive, but definitely worth it.
http://www.gaylans.com/


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## AcesWild

tippykayak said:


> Oh...I didn't see that. So if you don't feed the vitamins, your warranty is void?
> 
> Make sure you use our order code when you reorder!


yes indeed.


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## Pointgold

Hoo boy. :no:


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## Abbydabbydo

Pointgold said:


> Hoo boy. :no:


That is what I thought. Their English cremes look like my yellow lab Finn.


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## AcesWild

definitely one I would not go near


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## Pointgold

I should get a prize for not having said ONE WORD about the "English creme'" thing!


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## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> I should get a prize for not having said ONE WORD about the "English creme'" thing!


You've shown admirable restraint. I wasn't able to do so, myself. The absolute audacity of the outright fibs is astonishing to me.


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## sammydog

AcesWild said:


> As a comparison, I would look at these dogs and see if you notice a difference.
> 
> They offer a lifetime garuntee on many things the dogs are probably more expensive, but definitely worth it.
> http://www.gaylans.com/


 
I have met a few Gaylan's pups. Absolutely love them!


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## Ljilly28

tippykayak said:


> There are outright lies on that website and in their classified ads for puppies:
> 
> "We have the highest quality Golden Retrievers on the East Coast and most likely all of the US."
> 
> There is some very ugly deception taking place on their website, geared towards uneducated puppy buyers. I find that level of manipulation more disturbing in some ways than people who simply breed too many litters at a go.


Lol, you are so right bc it kind of worked on me. Even though I know the red flags through and through and really object to everything from the silly french accent mark on "creme"( dogs or yogurt?)(the dogs are supposed to be british so the french twist perplexes me, always) to the silly claims of having the best champion dogs in the whole world, the impression that they seem so innocent and sincere and he is a pastor and the dog on the lap video etc sucked me in a little bit. I still wouldn't buy a dog from there, but I felt bad being critical.


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## tippykayak

Ljilly28 said:


> Lol, you are so right bc it kind of worked on me. Even though I know the red flags through and through and really object to everything from the silly french accent mark on "creme"( dogs or yogurt?)(the dogs are supposed to be british so the french twist perplexes me, always) to the silly claims of having the best champion dogs in the whole world, the impression that they seem so innocent and sincere and he is a pastor and the dog on the lap video etc sucked me in a little bit. I still wouldn't buy a dog from there, but I felt bad being critical.


I keep finding myself wanting to think the best...maybe they're just unaware, rather than outright manipulative. But the claims about English Goldens are just too hyperbolic, and the way they play on people's fears about cancer pushes me over the line.

Also, breeding since 2004? Where are the dogs?


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## AcesWild

Pointgold said:


> I should get a prize for not having said ONE WORD about the "English creme'" thing!


Here you go have a cookie and a gold star :

I resisted but decided to look at other things I love how "Creme" has the little accent over the 'e'


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## Pointgold

Marketing BS aside, here is what I have the most concerns about:

"Stud" Max will not be 2 years old until January 2010. He prelim'd as only Fair at 1 yr.
They plan breedings of Max to:

Amalie (Sept 09 litter) who will not be 2 until 10/31/09, and who also prelim'd as only Fair at 14 mos. Cardiac was not done by a borad certified cardiologist. 

Victoria and Katie will not be two until 4/20/10 and have not been prelim's. They plan a 12/09 litter with Victoria, and a 2/10 litter with Katie.

It would appear, based on the rhetoric on the site, that the Pastor does not practice what he preaches. :no:


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## MurphyTeller

Pointgold said:


> It would appear, based on the rhetoric on the site, that the Pastor does not practice what he preaches. :no:


So wait, what are you really saying Laura? <giggle>


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## Pointgold

MurphyTeller said:


> So wait, what are you really saying Laura? <giggle>


 :--keep_silent:


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## NuttinButGoldens

"Buyer is to spay or neuter their dog within *one year of age*. No litters can be produced by their dog."

I don't think so...

"That the Buyer will return their Golden to Recherche Goldens if the Buyer is unable or unwilling reason to care for their Golden. Buyer agrees that they will never surrender their dog to a animal shelter or a *friend/family member *without permission from Recherche Goldens."

Permission needed to have him taken in by a family member if something happens to me? I don't think so... The first part I don't have a problem with.

"Not following our program of supplements “NuVet Vitamins.”

Get outta here !!!


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## mikejr

There's honestly not a lot to choose from in the area. This still isn't as bad as the breeder in Bedford (40min away).

Oddly enough, the site seems to have changed a bit due to feedback from this forum? Has a troll had his line in the water?



> Recherche Goldens are not the Wal-Mart of Golden Retrievers. We have the highest quality Goldens and therefore are much sought after. We typically have most of the pups sold before they are born. Those that buy from us are more concerned about their vet bills (which run much higher many times than the cost of the puppy), their home repairs from a bad behaving pup, and most of all, the heart break of caring for an unhealthy Golden Retriever. Buying a dog should never be like buying a vehicle. The decision on what dog you will have for 10-15 years should NEVER be based on price alone. *Our Goldens cost $2900* for a male or a female which includes everything (dew claw removal, health certificate, 4 dewormings, puppy shots, health examination, Honest Kitchen Embark Puppy Packet, NuVet Starter Kit, Puppy Training Packet, Puppy Picture CD, AKC paperwork, 2 Year Health Warranty and a lifetime of support).


Ouch!!! For that kind of money, I'd expect a much more impressive setup.


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## Pointgold

There are just _so _many discrepancies and contradictions in their contract and other areas of the site. :doh: 

In Buyer Agrees:

7. The value of the pet for the purpose of this guarantee is solely the original purchase price of the pet, and does not include any additional prices declared by the buyer, such as _*value of show dog*_ or shipping fees.

and in Breeder Agrees:

6. Breeder does not guarantee color, size, _*championship*_, or temperament of any puppy. 

This would have one believe that a puppy could be shown. Under NuVet, they write:

"Recherche Goldens rarely feel strongly enough about any particular product to give it our endorsement. In this case, however, seeing the remarkable results of this amazing product in the lives of our own pets, *show *and the breeding stock and our companions, has caused us to make our first and only endorsement."

Any of this would have one believe that they are selling show puppies, that their dogs are shown. Yet, they require that all dogs sold be altered, and none of them are able to be found any where as having competed.


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## Ljilly28

Check this out! It's almost the same web/site& copy, but for eskimo pups

http://www.platinumeskies.com/aboutus.html
http://www.heavensenteskies.com/AboutUs.html


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## Abbydabbydo

That is bizarre, Jill. I wonder how many breeds they have? Or if they are brokers?


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## AcesWild

mikejr said:


> There's honestly not a lot to choose from in the area. This still isn't as bad as the breeder in Bedford (40min away).
> 
> Oddly enough, the site seems to have changed a bit due to feedback from this forum? Has a troll had his line in the water?
> 
> 
> 
> Ouch!!! For that kind of money, I'd expect a much more impressive setup.


You could get a Gaylan dog for less. I know that for a fact


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## Augustus McCrae's Mom

It looks like the preacher and his wife breed GRs and American Eskimos (platinum eskies) and then he and his mom run Heaven Sent. 

I kept seeing this thread come up in New Posts, so I finally had to come in and check it out...wish I hadn't.

Edit to add: I googled _Charity and Jamel Hamka and I think Recherche and Platinum are the only lines they do. _


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## NuttinButGoldens

$2900. Great googly moogly!


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## MillysMom

It gets worse and worse...


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## Pointgold

I see that they have added that prior to breeding, the dogs will have been tested for eyes and heart. Still will be too young to clear, and underage for breeding.

I do love that Stud Max is the most magnificent stud dog in the world today. :doh:


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## GoldenAlexis

Thanks to everyone for your amazing feedback and investigative skills! I am simply overwhelmed by the dedication to the breed and knowledge of the posters on this thread. I have learned so much from my very first post/query!


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## tippykayak

GoldenAlexis said:


> Thanks to everyone for your amazing feedback and investigative skills! I am simply overwhelmed by the dedication to the breed and knowledge of the posters on this thread. I have learned so much from my very first post/query!


I'm glad you weren't turned off of the forum by the strength of the responses. You happen to have unearthed a very strange situation. Definitely read that GRCA buyer's checklist, and be aware that many of the best hobby breeders have no sites at all.


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## AcesWild

I'm so glad that you have enjoyed our feedback, we did try to be fair but the truth is, for the cost of one of their dogs, (if it's in your price range) I would certainly look at a Gaylan's dog, because they really are stunning.


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## RGoldens

I'm very sorry that I did not discover this thread earlier. I just found this thread today and was very disheartened by most of the threads written about me. 

First of all, I am new to breeding Golden Retrievers. I bred American Eskimos (www.PlatinumEskies.com) since 2004. They are a completely different breed. I also help my mother with her website (www.HeavenSentEskies.com) as you can tell. It's a little confusing and I have been accused of being a dog broker because of this. 

I did do a large amount of research when putting together my website but obviously I didn't do enough. This forum would have helped us out tremendously if we found it sooner. Almost all of my website is a compilation of others. My warranty page, my webpage on the differences between English and American Goldens and more are from others. I never put together a Warranty Page before and the one that I saw made the most sense. I have edited as I am becoming more educated and I believe now that every thing on there is there for a reason. I can go through everything one by one and explain why it's there if you want to later. 

My vet told us that there isn't much difference between OFA Preliminary and OFA final hip/elbow scores and that breeding your dogs with the preliminary reports would be acceptable. We tested all of our dogs with their hips, elbows, eyes (CERF) and heart before we bred. Our Amalie had puppies when she was 2 years and 2 months old. Our Kati will be having puppies when she is 2 years and 1 week old. Victoria was the only one to have puppies before she was 2 years old. She was 18 months old when she had her litter and produced extremely healthy puppies. 

We have decided to go with the BVA b/c we like the hip scheme better (more accurate, scores individual hips separately) We have have sent in our radiographs to BVA but it takes a few months to receive them back and I will post it on our website once they come back.

My beliefs that the English/European Golden is healthier than American Goldens is THE reason why we chose to breed them over Americans. American Eskimos are a wonderful breed but is not very friendly to strangers which is a big deal in our ministry. We love the Golden Retriever temperament but didn't want to deal with all the health difficulties. On our "The English Golden Retriever" webpage we list two FACTUAL articles (from the GRCA and the KC) that prove English Goldens have a much lower chance of cancer and live longer. You can read the articles here:
http://www.recherchegoldens.com/GRCA Health Survey.pdf
http://www.recherchegoldens.com/hsgoldenretriever-1.pdf

I know that me stating this is unpopular especially to American Golden Retriever breeders but it is backed up by fact and not fear. 

Also, we decided to use the term "English Creme Golden Retriever" simply because that is how most people describe our type of dog. I didn't make up the name nor do I much like the name but I understand that is the name most people use to describe our type of dog. Read the beginning of my webpage "The English Golden Retriever" and I describe the name and the color issue. We have chosen (just because of personal taste) that we do like the lighter colored Goldens. Since we do not have a massive operation, we decided to limit ourselves to only the "cream" colored Goldens.

Also, as you well know, our dogs are from Europe (Romania, Serbia, Slovakia and Hungary) and not from England. My wife loves French and speaks french very fluently. We named our kennel after the French word "Recherche" meaning sought out, exotic or choice. Therefore, to try to keep the European/French theme we decide to use the word creme instead of cream and put in the accent marks whenever I remembered. I don't understand why that is such a big deal to so many people.

Despite being beat-down in this thread, I am thankful I discovered it. I really tried to do everything as ethical as I knew how. I have edited my website extensively and will continue to do so. I have changed several things after reading your posts because you did point out some inconsistency and confusing statements on my website. I am truly sorry for that and should have been more careful before putting that on my website. I guess the moral of the story is to start out small and only put on your website what you are 100% confident of. 

I can spend a long time replying to individual post and may do that if you request of me. Please ask and I would love to reply.


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## Ljilly28

Thank you for the very gracious, undefensive post. A dialogue is an incredibly valuable process, for the good of golden retriever dogs if not for humans too, lol. 

I will let the really knowledgable breeders reply to many of the specifics such as the contention that Goldens from Serbia are somehow healthier than USA goldens. This has been studied extensively, and though types of cancer varies slightly in differing countries, the overall cancer rate for all goldens is very similar. This even led Upenn to speculate that perhaps in selecting for coat color way back in the founding of the breed, that a propensity for cancer was an accidental genetic side effect just as deafness and coat color can be related in other breeds. Regardless, I think it is a mistake for you to say or advertise that your goldens are healthier than others. Here is a statement I consider very ethical on this issue: http://www.simplesite.com/pebwin/6810435.

It would be wonderful if you decided to show your dogs in obedience or hunt tests so they can show they are contributing to the overall health and welfare of the breed. 

Breeding/advertising a golden for coat color rather than structure& soundness just doesnt make sense to me. Defining goldens by their color, whether it is spelled "cream" or "creme" is not the best thing for the health and temperament of the dogs.


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## CarolinaCasey

I haven't been to your website, but I wanted to weigh in...

First, I'm glad that you've come to this board looking for more knowledge and for ways to improve. That in and of itself takes a lot of strength considering not many people looked at your site in a favorable light. WELCOME! Please stick around and learn what you can from our site and the other breeders here.

I think it comes down to a golden retriever being a golden retriever. An English Creme is nothing but a golden retriever with a lighter coat. Many feel that this is just a marketing ploy. Many, many shades of red all the way to light blonde are acceptable per the standard. The American and English golden retriever are still considered the same breed, they compete against one another in the show ring. If you like the lighter color, great, but it is still a golden retriever, not a creme. In my opinion, anyway. 

According to the GRCA's Code of Ethics, one should not breed their stock before age 2. This is because clearances can only be done at 24 months. Preliminary clearances are not sufficient. Sometimes scoring changes. Why take the chance? This is why many had issue with your girls being bred before age two. It really doesn't matter that they didn't whelp until they were age two. It all comes down to appropriate clearances being done.

What warrants the large price tag? Have your dogs proved themselves in a venue? Conformation, agility, or obedience? We want to see beauty and brains as potential puppy buyers. Not to mention a dog that meets the standard.


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## tippykayak

RGoldens said:


> On our "The English Golden Retriever" webpage we list two FACTUAL articles (from the GRCA and the KC) that prove English Goldens have a much lower chance of cancer and live longer. You can read the articles here:
> http://www.recherchegoldens.com/GRCA Health Survey.pdf
> http://www.recherchegoldens.com/hsgoldenretriever-1.pdf


These claims, as I made clear in posts earlier in this article, are simply untrue. Those are note "FACTUAL" articles; they are surveys of a few hundred dogs each.

The British study tells you that the median age of death in dogs reported as "Golden Retrievers" by their owners was 12 years and three months. The AKC study tells you that the median age of death was 11.3 years. Hence your claim that British dogs live longer. However, the margin of error in the AKC study is more than 3 years. The British study doesn't provide one, but given that it's a smaller sample, it would be even larger. 

The people who compiled the AKC statistics have a very good sense of what they were doing, which was trying to look at different causes of death. Their statistics do a good job of giving us an idea of how to compare different CODs _within_ the sampling group. The sample size is too small to make a comparison between one set of ancestral lines in the breed and another.

The median death age of a few hundred Golden Retrievers in Britain tells you next to nothing about the longevity of the dogs you're importing from Eastern Europe, and to claim otherwise in order to sell dogs is truly unethical. The fact of the matter is that nobody has solid data that can be used to compare longevity among English-type Goldens and American-type Goldens, because neither of the studies you posted (nor any that I know of) actually look at that. 

Your claims about cancer are also founded on an equally egregious misunderstanding of statistics.

If you like the way they look better, more power to you. If you have high hopes that they'll live longer, more power to you. To claim it's a "fact" that your dogs live longer than another type of Golden, though, is pretty ugly manipulation of people's fears.

Also, while I'm roaring along here, the fact that your dogs gave birth just after their second birthdays means that they were not 2 at the time they were bred, which is the clear ethical standard given by the GRCA. Are you sure you didn't go with BVA just so you could breed earlier, since OFA won't give you clearances on dogs younger than 2?

Your site also still says this: "Hip Dysplasia and Elbow Dysplasia are also much more common in American Golden Retrievers than in English-type Golden Retrievers." Can you prove that one? 

And this little gem, "Hip dysplasia is very common in the breed; when buying a puppy in the US the parents should be examined by the OFA for hip disease." Yet you just said that you didn't think OFA was a good way to rate hips?


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## LibertyME

When you know better, you do better.....you now know better...
It's time to step up and prove your dedication to the breed.


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## Ljilly28

LibertyME said:


> When you know better, you do better.....you now know better...
> It's time to step up and prove your dedication to the breed.



A perfect post


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## Pointgold

LibertyME said:


> When you know better, you do better.....you now know better...
> It's time to step up and prove your dedication to the breed.


Exactly.

The "facts" are not facts. And that's a fact.


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## Doolin

When you know better, you do better.....you now know better...
It's time to step up and prove your dedication to the breed. 

I agree completely with your take. I just hope that those that know better don't just get better at deceiving the unsuspecting.

In this case, a golden retriever is a golden retriever no matter how you look at them. If you ask any breeder overseas what type of dog they breed they will tell you a golden retriever no adjectives needed. This has always been one breed, so to insinuate that there is a difference is ridiculous! 

I would recommend doing your homework and getting a mentor if you truely are interested in bettering this breed. There are very many overseas that would be happy to help, especially the reputable ones! Everytime I have asked for advice on certain lines I have received responses that go above and beyond what is expected.

The breeder at Reserche seemed genuine, so I hope he evaluates his current program and makes some changes for the better. 

I have owned goldens of both styles. No difference in temperament. Health???? like to see some real proof. The only difference I find is somewhat structurally and coat type. But even that is so minimal it doesn't distinguish. 

I'll just enjoy owning a Golden Retriever, what they have been called for longer then any of us have been alive!


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## RGoldens

tippykayak said:


> "Hip dysplasia is very common in the breed; when buying a puppy in the US the parents should be examined by the OFA for hip disease." Yet you just said that you didn't think OFA was a good way to rate hips?


Thanks once again for pointing out that inconsistency. I will immediately change that on my website. After having 4 dogs tested with the OFA, I am very annoyed by the scoring scheme. I was given a "Fair" rating but with no explanation. How "fair" was the rating? Which hip are fair or are both hips fair? And yes, I do believe that the OFA is inferior to PennHip, OVC and BVA because all 3 score each hip independently and give you an actual idea how good or how bad EACH hip is. Why OFA is even used is boggling to me. The only thing I like about OFA is the ability to have your dogs records public. THAT'S IT! 

As mentioned before, why does the GRCA want a dog to be bred at least at 2 years of age? Is it b/c the dog can't handle the pups? Or is it b/c OFA require the dog to be 2 years old to get final scoring. Almost everyone on this forum would agree that it's b/c of the OFA. Why is the OFA the only hip scoring company that requires the dog to be 2 years old for the final score? Why does PennHip, BVA and OVC state the dog can be 1 year old or older? Again, I believe the OFA is inferior and the the majority is correct. I believe the only reason OFA has their Preliminary and Final report is money.

I've done my research on the European and American Goldens and I am convinced that they are at the minimum much better looking and overall healthier. I'm not the only one that believes that. I never claim the personality of the European Goldens are different simply because I don't know...I've never owned an American Golden. I know I absolutely love my Goldens and when people come and visit me and my facility they are almost 100% sold on us and our program. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this.

Lastly, I want to point out some things that we do that we believe should be a part of every ethical breeder. If I was a puppy mill or simply in it for the profit, then these would not be apart of our program. I believe that we all have opinions and that we should allow for some differences. We shouldn't crucify those that differ on the little things. Here are some of our distinctions:
1) We DO test our Goldens for their hips, elbows, eyes and heart. As you know that is costly and very scary sometimes. Thankfully, we have been very fortunate to pass..."Fair" is passing for those that don't know.
2) We do NOT sell our Goldens with full registration. We would to only a proven breeder that can pass our extensive questionnaire (we have not had 1 yet). We are not a puppy mill nor do we want our puppies to end up in one.
3) We sell our dogs with a spay/neuter contract and don't allow others to register their dog with other registries. This was criticized by one poster and called "stupid" by another. Obviously they are ignorance of the unethical practice of inferior registries like APRI and CKC. These inferior registries will accept a LIMITED AKC registration and register the dog with a FULL APRI/CKC registration. A buyer COULD buy a limited AKC puppy from us, register it with an inferior registry and then sell papered Golden Retriever pups. Once again we protect our puppies from entering into puppy mills. Because of this scam, we only give a copy of the limited registration to the buyer until we get copy of the pup being spayed/neutered. We also register every pup with the "Recherche" name so we can search APRI/CKC's registry to make sure no one has breached. We're very serious about protecting our pups. If I allowed, I could sell for full registration and make a lot of money. I get contacted at least once a week for someone wanting full registration and I turn them down.
4) We do have a forfeit clause FOR ANY REASON. If a buyer cannot care for their dog then we will take them back even if they are in bad health. We do require permission to transfer the dog to friends/family because we want to make sure the new owners understand our no policy. 
5) Our program is very intense. We do not have outside kennels but we raise the puppies in our home. They are handled several times and day and are systematically socialized on a daily basis. We continually are improving by reading books (The Art of Raising a Puppy by the Monks of New Skete is great) and by listening to podcast (Leerburg.com has some great podcast). We typically have every puppy crate trained and about 50% potty trained by the time they are 8 weeks old....HOW? We take more time and effort with our pups than most breeders. All of our current customers are amazed at the temperaments of our pups.
6) All of our pups are health checked, given Duramune Max 5, are dew clawed, given 4 dewormings, microchipped and come with a 1 year warranty. 

You see...we're not as unethical as many of you thought. If we were in it for the money then we would run our kennel much differently.

In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"


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## Pointgold

My hope is that any changes made on the website are not simply because you've been provided with something better to put up when in fact you are not praciticing what you are posting. :crossfing


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## Pointgold

Frankly, what you claim you are doing is nothing more than the very minimum that would be done by any responsible breeder. What about titles or other means of proving the dogs being bred?


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## Pointgold

Many of your points, if not most, are without foundation. Perferring the style of dog that you have is just that - preference, and there is NO foundation that they are healthier, or otherwise better. None. Fair hips? Yes, may be "passing", but that is not exemplary.
I'm quite sure that "proven breeders" (although our definition of same is surely not the same) are not flocking to your door wanting to purchase dogs to incorporate into their breeding program.
Breeders do NOT export their best dogs. Either out of the US, or, from other countries INTO the US. That is a well known fact. Your relative inexperience would likely not allow for you to know that. Producing many litters on a farm limits experience greatly. 
I certainly hope that you learn something, but honestly am not holding my breath. Harsh? Maybe, but your rhetoric is just more of the same as we see from any number of people who have discovered that the general public will buy into pretty nearly anything if it is marketed well.


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## CarolinaCasey

OFA is qualitative- "excellent, good, fair..."
Penn Hip and others are quantitative. (Gives you a number)

Here's a way to compare.
*OFA: BVA (from OFA website)

Excellent: 0-4 (no>3/hip)
Good: 5-10 (no>6/hip)
Fair: 11-18
Borderline: 19-25
Mild: 26-35
Moderate: 36-50
Severe: 51-106

*According to BVA, GR's should be 18 or less.


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## tippykayak

RGoldens said:


> Thanks once again for pointing out that inconsistency. I will immediately change that on my website. After having 4 dogs tested with the OFA, I am very annoyed by the scoring scheme. I was given a "Fair" rating but with no explanation. How "fair" was the rating? Which hip are fair or are both hips fair? And yes, I do believe that the OFA is inferior to PennHip, OVC and BVA because all 3 score each hip independently and give you an actual idea how good or how bad EACH hip is. Why OFA is even used is boggling to me. The only thing I like about OFA is the ability to have your dogs records public. THAT'S IT!


OFA keeps it simple, and it allows folks to doublecheck your claims. There's nothing wrong with a "fair" rating, though if your other claims about English-type Goldens are true, aren't you surprised that all your dogs don't check out as "good" or "excellent" on OFA? It seems inconsistent with your claims that English-type Goldens are at such a reduced risk for dysplasia.



RGoldens said:


> As mentioned before, why does the GRCA want a dog to be bred at least at 2 years of age? Is it b/c the dog can't handle the pups? Or is it b/c OFA require the dog to be 2 years old to get final scoring. Almost everyone on this forum would agree that it's b/c of the OFA. Why is the OFA the only hip scoring company that requires the dog to be 2 years old for the final score? Why does PennHip, BVA and OVC state the dog can be 1 year old or older? Again, I believe the OFA is inferior and the the majority is correct. I believe the only reason OFA has their Preliminary and Final report is money.


The GRCA wants to the dog to be two for the same reasons OFA won't certify until then. Dogs are not finished growing and truly mature until that age. PennHIP will give you a rating at 1, but ethical breeders understand that things keep changing, particularly in the joints, until far later.



RGoldens said:


> I've done my research on the European and American Goldens and I am convinced that they are at the minimum much better looking and overall healthier. I'm not the only one that believes that. I never claim the personality of the European Goldens are different simply because I don't know...I've never owned an American Golden. I know I absolutely love my Goldens and when people come and visit me and my facility they are almost 100% sold on us and our program. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this.


We can agree to disagree if you like, but what you're posting on your site is misleading in the extreme. If you believe for some reason of faith that your dogs are healthier than the rest of the breed, that's fine. But posting studies and pulling numbers from them out of context is a pretty awful thing to do to an innocent person who's simply looking for a healthy dog. It's like you're saying that everybody else's dogs live 2 years less than your "rare" white dogs. Like your claim about hips, it's not based on reality.



RGoldens said:


> Lastly, I want to point out some things that we do that we believe should be a part of every ethical breeder.


I don't think you're a miller, but as PG said, the things you posted are part of the bare minimum for ethical breeders, and you simply don't measure up on some of the other pieces (breeding age, etc.). Look at the GRCA's guide to choosing a breeder and really ask yourself if your program measures up in its current form.

I do apologize for the negative tone in some of what I've posted, but it really does upset me that somebody is claiming they have Goldens with a lower cancer risk, when in reality, study after study has confirmed that all the dogs in the breed have approximately the same risk.


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## RGoldens

CarolinaCasey said:


> OFA is qualitative- "excellent, good, fair..."
> Penn Hip and others are quantitative. (Gives you a number)
> 
> Here's a way to compare.
> *OFA: BVA (from OFA website)
> 
> Excellent: 0-4 (no>3/hip)
> Good: 5-10 (no>6/hip)
> Fair: 11-18
> Borderline: 19-25
> Mild: 26-35
> Moderate: 36-50
> Severe: 51-106
> 
> *According to BVA, GR's should be 18 or less.


Carolina, you are exactly right. If your dog scored "Good" on an OFA reading it doesn't give enough information. How "Good" of hips does your dog have? 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10? Also, what scores are each hip. Both hips rarely score the same. You may have a 2 right hip and a 7 left hip but you wouldn't know that with OFA. Isn't that the whole point with OFA? If 1 hip is worse then the others, then we want to know about it right?


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## timberwolf

*"3) We sell our dogs with a spay/neuter contract and don't allow others to register their dog with other registries. This was criticized by one poster and called "stupid" by another. Obviously they are ignorance of the unethical practice of inferior registries like APRI and CKC. These inferior registries will accept a LIMITED AKC registration and register the dog with a FULL APRI/CKC registration"*

Inferior registries like CKC??? I am assuming that the CKC you are talking about must be something other than the Canadian Kennel Club because to say the Canadian Kennel Club is an inferior registry with unethical practices just blows my mind!!!


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## CarolinaCasey

RGoldens said:


> Thanks once again for pointing out that inconsistency. I will immediately change that on my website. After having 4 dogs tested with the OFA, I am very annoyed by the scoring scheme. I was given a "Fair" rating but with no explanation. How "fair" was the rating? Which hip are fair or are both hips fair? And yes, I do believe that the OFA is inferior to PennHip, OVC and BVA...
> 
> I've done my research on the European and American Goldens and I am convinced that they are at the minimum much better looking and overall healthier. I'm not the only one that believes that. I never claim the personality of the European Goldens are different simply because I don't know...I've never owned an American Golden.
> 
> You see...we're not as unethical as many of you thought. If we were in it for the money then we would run our kennel much differently.
> 
> In the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"


I am not a breeder and never will be, but I do have a great interest in dogs and veterinary medicine so I like to learn as much as I can. 

I have finally gotten around to your website:
It concerns me that you only use Max as a stud. The breeders that I have come to meet as well as on this forum, are trying to build a breeding program and make positive improvements in the breed. How can this be achieved when you don't try to improve upon what you've done? I would recommend becoming a part of the local GR Club. A more experienced breeder could be your mentor and help plan the goals for your kennel. 

While you're not "unethical," as you obviously care about your dogs and have a good start... you need keep learning and keep improving because right now-you're doing a minimum... Take some handling classes, enroll in obedience trials, get your dogs to compete in any venue, make improvements to the breed. There is much more to breeding than two healthy dogs. 

Yes, we can all get along. I think that you'll come to find that this forum is a wonderful place where we all just care about the animal first and foremost.


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## CarolinaCasey

RGoldens said:


> Carolina, you are exactly right. If your dog scored "Good" on an OFA reading it doesn't give enough information. How "Good" of hips does your dog have? 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10? Also, what scores are each hip. Both hips rarely score the same. You may have a 2 right hip and a 7 left hip but you wouldn't know that with OFA. Isn't that the whole point with OFA? If 1 hip is worse then the others, then we want to know about it right?


From what I've seen at work- it will tell you if there is laxity in L or R hip, but only if the score is borderline or worse. If it is fair or better, they don't get specific, probably because both hips are fitting snug enough. I have seen a lot of Penn Hip scoring, too- so I'm going to double check this later in the week for my own education.


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## RGoldens

timberwolf said:


> *"3) We sell our dogs with a spay/neuter contract and don't allow others to register their dog with other registries. This was criticized by one poster and called "stupid" by another. Obviously they are ignorance of the unethical practice of inferior registries like APRI and CKC. These inferior registries will accept a LIMITED AKC registration and register the dog with a FULL APRI/CKC registration"*
> 
> Inferior registries like CKC??? I am assuming that the CKC you are talking about must be something other than the Canadian Kennel Club because to say the Canadian Kennel Club is an inferior registry with unethical practices just blows my mind!!!


I'm sorry for the confusion. The CKC is the Continental Kennel Club. The CanKC is the Canadian Kennel Club and it is a wonderful registry. I was speaking about registries in the US only.


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## IowaGold

RGoldens said:


> Carolina, you are exactly right. If your dog scored "Good" on an OFA reading it doesn't give enough information. How "Good" of hips does your dog have? 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10? Also, what scores are each hip. Both hips rarely score the same. You may have a 2 right hip and a 7 left hip but you wouldn't know that with OFA. Isn't that the whole point with OFA? If 1 hip is worse then the others, then we want to know about it right?


The way I understand it (as explained in my orthopedics class), if one hip is worse than the other (say one hip is "good" and one is "fair") they score the hips with the lower rating (in this case "fair"). Or in your example the "2" hip is Excellent, but one hip being "7" is Fair, so it should rate "Fair". As long as both hips are passing and since the lower grade is the reported grade, there is really nothing gained by knowing that what grade the better hip is.

Personally I like to see two hip registries used (for me PennHIP and OFA). If both agree, I'm quite confident that the hips are at least as good as the lowest reported rating.


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## tippykayak

RGoldens said:


> Carolina, you are exactly right. If your dog scored "Good" on an OFA reading it doesn't give enough information. How "Good" of hips does your dog have? 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10? Also, what scores are each hip. Both hips rarely score the same. You may have a 2 right hip and a 7 left hip but you wouldn't know that with OFA. Isn't that the whole point with OFA? If 1 hip is worse then the others, then we want to know about it right?


OFA is a rating, not a diagnosis, just like PennHIP. A dog can fail OFA and still not ever develop dysplasia. It's simply a way of knowing if the preconditions are there. The downside of PennHIP is that it doesn't let you know for sure if you should breed the dog or not. It's simply a laxity measurement, and how lax is too lax? Should you just avoid breeding dogs lower than the 50th percentile? Is the 48th OK?

It's absolutely helpful to know if one hip is worse than the other, but you can still look at the radiographs if you're interested in diagnosing the dog. OFA is a rating for a breeder to know whether it's a good idea to breed the animal or not, and for the prospective buyer to check whether or not the breeder is conforming to all ethical guidelines.


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## tippykayak

IowaGold said:


> Personally I like to see two hip registries used (for me PennHIP and OFA). If both agree, I'm quite confident that the hips are at least as good as the lowest reported rating.


The breeders I know personally do tend to use both, since OFA is the standard and PennHIP gives them extra information to use when making breeding decisions.


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## timberwolf

OK, I've finally had the chance to look at the website and can't seem to stop laughing!
Does anyone actually believe that crap?


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## Pointgold

timberwolf said:


> *"3) We sell our dogs with a spay/neuter contract and don't allow others to register their dog with other registries. This was criticized by one poster and called "stupid" by another. Obviously they are ignorance of the unethical practice of inferior registries like APRI and CKC. These inferior registries will accept a LIMITED AKC registration and register the dog with a FULL APRI/CKC registration"*
> 
> Inferior registries like CKC??? I am assuming that the CKC you are talking about must be something other than the Canadian Kennel Club because to say the Canadian Kennel Club is an inferior registry with unethical practices just blows my mind!!!


This would be the infamous Continental Kennel Club, which, by the way, as I reacll, the CANADIAN Kennel Club, a highly reputable and ethical Registry, won a lawsuit against for using "CKC". They are now required to use ContKC. 

The only registries in the US worth the paper their certs are printed on are AKC, CKC (the REAL one) and the UKC.


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## my4goldens

tippykayak said:


> OFA is a rating, not a diagnosis, just like PennHIP. A dog can fail OFA and still not ever develop dysplasia..


So very true. My Tess who turns ten in March had her hips OFA'd at age two. To my great astonishment she didn't pass on her left hip, result was mild HD. She had passed all of her other clearances. Today she shows not one symptom of any kind of problem in her hips, can run, jump, spin and play just as hard as she did as a puppy. I had her spayed, which was a disappointment, as her breeder had really liked her and had wanted to use her in her breeding program. Oh, well.


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## Pointgold

*Oh, man...*

I don't know how some people sleep at night. (Probably very well on an expensive mattress with fine Egyptian Cotton linens - at these prices they can afford them...)


_*Puppy Preschool
AGE*: Begins at 6 weeks of age and continues until the puppy is 10 weeks of age.*COST:* $1000 ($500 addit. deposit required by 6 weeks of age)
*TAUGHT*: The puppy will be completely crate-trained, leashed trained and also almost 100% potty trained. Recherche Goldens will spend an extensive amount of time socializing them and teaching them to listen to their master. We will place them on a sleeping and feeding schedule according to what the buyers decide. We will even work with the time changes. For example, if an owner on the West Coast wakes up at 7 am to potty and feed their dog then Recherche Goldens will immediately put the puppy on a 10 am potty and feeding schedule (3 hour time difference). A schedule will keep puppies potty trained and well behaved.
__*Puppy Kindergarten
AGE*: Begins at 6 weeks of age and continues until the puppy is 13 weeks of age.* COST:* $1750 ($1000 addit. deposit required by 8 weeks of age)
*TAUGHT*: Everything with Puppy Preschool *PLUS*: Basic obedience training including, come, sit, stay, down, wait , heel, & walking up and down stairs. They will learn right from wrong. Included with all of the above your pup will learn about riding in a car. We take the pups out on field trips to various safe location, where they socialize with a variety of people & new experiences in order to prepare them for the outside world with their new families. While in training your pup will continue to live in our home with us. We teach the pups not to bite at hands, feet or clothes, and that digging & barking are not allowed. During the course of obedience training, your pup will also learn to be groomed, bathing, blow drying, nail trimming , teeth brushing & ear cleaning.
_Back to Top
*Do you sell the "pick of the litter"? *_
Yes we do. The first pick of our males and our females are automatically enrolled in our Extended Puppy Training program called "Puppy Kindergarten." __We call these pups our "*Chien Supérieurs*" (translation from French: "Top Dogs.") We start with a pup that has outstanding conformation, a sweet temperament, calm disposition & high intellegence. We begin professionally training the *Chien Supérieurs* at 6 weeks old and end at around 13 weeks of age depending on every *Chien Supérieur's* individual capacity. With years experience in training, we train your puppy to be an excellent companion. When they are placed in a home, they will be potty trained, crate trained, walk on a leash, & basic obedience training including, come, sit, stay, down, wait , heel & shake. They will learn right from wrong. _
_Included with all of the above your pup will learn about riding in a car. We take the pups out on field trips to various safe location, where they socialize with a variety of people & new experiences in order to prepare them for the outside world with their new families._
_While in training your pup will continue to live in our home with us. We teach the pups not to bite at hands, feet or clothes, and that digging & barking are not allowed. During the course of obedience training, your pup will also learn to be groomed, bathing, blow drying, nail trimming , teeth brushing & ear cleaning._
_Ideally, training time is about 6 weeks, although some pups take less time & other a bit more. It all depends on the pups personality & how quickly they pick up their obedience training. They are all individuals and we take that into account with their training. _
_Please read answer #27 for more information about what is taught. The cost for our* Chien Supérieurs* are $5900 each. _


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## Loisiana

Wow, I now have a plan for my life. Flip will be my stud dog for my line of "miniature goldens." I will then do all the things that a good breeder does anyway for the best pup of the litter, call it the "Tiny Topper," and charge $6000 for it.
I can't believe I've been wasting my years being a public school teacher.


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## Pointgold

Loisiana said:


> Wow, I now have a plan for my life. Flip will be my stud dog for my line of "miniature goldens." I will then do all the things that a good breeder does anyway for the best pup of the litter, call it the "Tiny Topper," and charge $6000 for it.
> I can't believe I've been wasting my years being a public school teacher.


 
:doh: How do you think _I _feel??? I've been breeding dawgs, and have been a professional trainer for close to 25 years! All this time I could have been charging $1750.00 for _my_ 5 week Puppy Kindergarten Classes?????

And, over three grand for my puppies (without even ever spending a DIME, let alone thousands and thousands of dollars showing the "studs" and dams)...

Whew. And Amen.


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## tippykayak

A business person has every right to charge whatever the market will bear for a service. There's nothing unethical about training a puppy, and I don't see anything particularly wrong with a breeder/trainer holding onto a puppy for longer and training it.

I do have a problem if some puppies aren't getting socialization and pre-training unless the buyer pays more, and I'd never in a million years pay somebody that much for what's offered, but what's the ethical problem with charging too much for training? The buyer can simply go elsewhere for that service, and no dogs suffer because of it.


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## Ljilly28

RGoldens said:


> I'm sorry for the confusion. The CKC is the Continental Kennel Club. The CanKC is the Canadian Kennel Club and it is a wonderful registry. I was speaking about registries in the US only.


I honestly think, if your heart is in the right place, you might seriously scale down this website/ breeding program until your knowledge of goldens catches up with your ambitions to produce them. Find a mentor, compete in some various venues like obedience and conformation to learn the relationship between a golden's form& temperament and his function first hand, breed one incredibly well-planned litter at a time for very thoughtful, not financial, reasons born out by objective data like health certifications and aptitude-demonstrating titles. Abide by the GRCA's code of ethics at all times. . . Right now, accidently or on purpose, you are misleading the public about golden retriever dogs.


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## RGoldens

tippykayak said:


> A business person has every right to charge whatever the market will bear for a service. There's nothing unethical about training a puppy, and I don't see anything particularly wrong with a breeder/trainer holding onto a puppy for longer and training it.
> 
> I do have a problem if some puppies aren't getting socialization and pre-training unless the buyer pays more, and I'd never in a million years pay somebody that much for what's offered, but what's the ethical problem with charging too much for training? The buyer can simply go elsewhere for that service, and no dogs suffer because of it.


It is very interested the heat I get for my prices. The question is WHO decides what is right and wrong for pricing? Is it the GRCA? Is it the Golden Retriever Forum? I'm sorry but no. In America it's the CUSTOMER. There is only 1 reason I charge so much for my dogs....SUPPLY AND DEMAND. I have over 25 dogs RESERVED over the next 2 years with my "Chien Suppierers" reserved for my next 3 litters (except 1). I have over 30% of my puppies signing up for Puppy Kindergarten. My wife and I do a very thorough job and my buyers are very grateful for us training their puppies. I only raised my prices because I had 10 times as many buyers as puppies. Is it unethical to be "for profit?" No. Even though I don't have to explain myself, we did just purchase a home for well over $150k MORE than what we need simply for the dogs. My expenses are very high. But even if they weren't it's still okay to charge whatever the buyer is willing and able to pay. 

I read on a few websites that it is unethical to charge more than $1800-$2000 for each English Golden. I laugh because I have been accused of being unbelievably unethical for charging $1200 for my American Eskimos. Are raising Golden Retrievers that much more expensive than raising American Eskimos...not really (they do eat a lot more puppy food!) The reason is simple....Supply and Demand. People are WILLING to pay more and so we charge more. I originally charged $550 for my eskies when first starting out but sold them extremely fast. I went up to $700 the next litter and sold them b/f they were born (all to good homes by the way). I went up to $900 and still...never had a problem. I held my breath and went up to $1200 and so far....have 5 pups reserved for a litter being born in April (typically only has 6 pups). I still do and spend the same for my $550 litter as I do for my $1200 litter so what's the difference? Supply and Demand!

I know to socialist and communist that capitalism is very unpopular. I do not hold a monopoly on Golden Retrievers. My customers can go anywhere they want to but they don't. Why? Because I use "fear-mongering" to sell them? Because I "lie to them" to sell them? No. It's because they understand my program, they see my product, and they trust me. And the best part is....they come back for more. I have yet to have a bad customer with my eskies and all of my Golden Retriever buyers are very pleased. 

To answer tippykayak's comments above, we have an extensive socialization program for all of our pups. Our Puppy Kindergarten pups are only separated for a few short training sessions a day for the two weeks they are with their peers. We really just introduce them to "bell training," "click training" and crate training. The 8th-12th week is when we get intense. I will tell you that it takes more work with 1 Puppy Kindergarten puppy then an entire litter of non-Puppy Kindergarten puppies. My wife is tirelessly training that puppy and the results are quite remarkable. We'll post a video online next time we have a puppy in training to show the remarkable progress. They are completely potty trained, crate trained, sitting, laying, lay/staying (for 5-10 minutes at a time), coming, leash trained, heeling, bell trained, click trained, shaking, walking up and down stairs, car trained, shopping cart trained, play trained (not allowed to bite skin), retrieving, releasing, door trained (going through doors after we release them) and unbelievably socialized (my wife has several piano students that help us out!). For us...it's worth every bit of $1750.


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## CarolinaCasey

Ljilly28 said:


> I honestly think, if your heart is in the right place, you might seriously scale down this website/ breeding program until your knowledge of goldens catches up with your ambitions to produce them. Find a mentor, compete in some various venues like obedience and conformation to learn the relationship between a golden's form& temperament and his function first hand, breed one incredibly well-planned litter at a time for very thoughtful, not financial, reasons born out by objective data like health certifications and aptitude-demonstrating titles. Abide by the GRCA's code of ethics at all times. . . Right now, accidently or on purpose, you are misleading the public about golden retriever dogs.


:yipee: What she said. 

Please read it again... 


Supply and demand I understand. 
I also understand that the dog benefits from a puppy program. Not everyone has the ability to train a puppy. It is better that it is trained then stuck with a clueless owner that can't/won't do it. 
I think your prices stike a cord with many of us because it seems that you're misleading the public by a lot of information on your website. 

Read LJilly's post again...


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## AmbikaGR

I have not read each of the posts in detail in this thread but l I think you may have your heart in the right spot and although you may have done some research on Goldens, I will assume the bulk of it was via the WWW. You are located in an area of the US that has one of the largest and most active Golden Retriever Club's - Potomac Valley GRC ( http://www.pvgrc.org/ ). Look them up, go to some of their meetings, join the club and talk to some their extremely knowledgeable folks.


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## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> It is very interested the heat I get for my prices. The question is WHO decides what is right and wrong for pricing? Is it the GRCA? Is it the Golden Retriever Forum? I'm sorry but no. In America it's the CUSTOMER. There is only 1 reason I charge so much for my dogs....SUPPLY AND DEMAND. I have over 25 dogs RESERVED over the next 2 years with my "Chien Suppierers" reserved for my next 3 litters (except 1). I have over 30% of my puppies signing up for Puppy Kindergarten. My wife and I do a very thorough job and my buyers are very grateful for us training their puppies. I only raised my prices because I had 10 times as many buyers as puppies. Is it unethical to be "for profit?" No. Even though I don't have to explain myself, we did just purchase a home for well over $150k MORE than what we need simply for the dogs. My expenses are very high. But even if they weren't it's still okay to charge whatever the buyer is willing and able to pay.
> 
> I read on a few websites that it is unethical to charge more than $1800-$2000 for each English Golden. I laugh because I have been accused of being unbelievably unethical for charging $1200 for my American Eskimos. Are raising Golden Retrievers that much more expensive than raising American Eskimos...not really (they do eat a lot more puppy food!) The reason is simple....Supply and Demand. People are WILLING to pay more and so we charge more. I originally charged $550 for my eskies when first starting out but sold them extremely fast. I went up to $700 the next litter and sold them b/f they were born (all to good homes by the way). I went up to $900 and still...never had a problem. I held my breath and went up to $1200 and so far....have 5 pups reserved for a litter being born in April (typically only has 6 pups). I still do and spend the same for my $550 litter as I do for my $1200 litter so what's the difference? Supply and Demand!
> 
> I know to socialist and communist that capitalism is very unpopular. I do not hold a monopoly on Golden Retrievers. My customers can go anywhere they want to but they don't. Why? Because I use "fear-mongering" to sell them? Because I "lie to them" to sell them? No. It's because they understand my program, they see my product, and they trust me. And the best part is....they come back for more. I have yet to have a bad customer with my eskies and all of my Golden Retriever buyers are very pleased.
> 
> To answer tippykayak's comments above, we have an extensive socialization program for all of our pups. Our Puppy Kindergarten pups are only separated for a few short training sessions a day for the two weeks they are with their peers. We really just introduce them to "bell training," "click training" and crate training. The 8th-12th week is when we get intense. I will tell you that it takes more work with 1 Puppy Kindergarten puppy then an entire litter of non-Puppy Kindergarten puppies. My wife is tirelessly training that puppy and the results are quite remarkable. We'll post a video online next time we have a puppy in training to show the remarkable progress. They are completely potty trained, crate trained, sitting, laying, lay/staying (for 5-10 minutes at a time), coming, leash trained, heeling, bell trained, click trained, shaking, walking up and down stairs, car trained, shopping cart trained, play trained (not allowed to bite skin), retrieving, releasing, door trained (going through doors after we release them) and unbelievably socialized (my wife has several piano students that help us out!). For us...it's worth every bit of $1750.


 
First of all, I am a proud conservative who believes in capitalism. That said, I do NOT believe in profitting off the backs of my dogs, and sorry, but everything that you have said does nothing more than convince me that you _are _doing this for the money. 

You don't need to attempt to explain "Puppy Kindergarten" to me - I've been teaching it successfully in my area for nearly 25 years. Affordably. And my puppies go home with wonderful basic manners and I don't charge my "customers" thousands of extra dollars for that. Nor do the many, many reputable breeders I consider colleagues, whose puppies are well bred, healthy, beautifully socialized, with a long ancestral history of genetic health clearances and generations of PROVEN dogs (from parents back.)

All we can do is attempt to educate the general public so that they know that there are far better options that will not cost them obscene amounts of money.

All this sounds far too much like another "breeder" who I know...she too has Rip-off report and Complaint Board filings.


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## NuttinButGoldens

Holy Expensive Golden, Batman!

Has their only customer been Donald Trump? Or maybe Bill Gates? No, no... Steve Jobs!

I had my first Golden, Rusty, at one year old, professionally trained at the same place that trained all of San Diego's Police Dogs (no, he wasn't taught how to bite butt's ) and the whole thing, with 30 days of boarding, the training, feeding, exercise, everything was $300.



Pointgold said:


> I don't know how some people sleep at night. (Probably very well on an expensive mattress with fine Egyptian Cotton linens - at these prices they can afford them...)
> 
> 
> _*Puppy Preschool
> AGE*: Begins at 6 weeks of age and continues until the puppy is 10 weeks of age.*COST:* $1000 ($500 addit. deposit required by 6 weeks of age)
> *TAUGHT*: The puppy will be completely crate-trained, leashed trained and also almost 100% potty trained. Recherche Goldens will spend an extensive amount of time socializing them and teaching them to listen to their master. We will place them on a sleeping and feeding schedule according to what the buyers decide. We will even work with the time changes. For example, if an owner on the West Coast wakes up at 7 am to potty and feed their dog then Recherche Goldens will immediately put the puppy on a 10 am potty and feeding schedule (3 hour time difference). A schedule will keep puppies potty trained and well behaved.
> __*Puppy Kindergarten
> AGE*: Begins at 6 weeks of age and continues until the puppy is 13 weeks of age.* COST:* $1750 ($1000 addit. deposit required by 8 weeks of age)
> *TAUGHT*: Everything with Puppy Preschool *PLUS*: Basic obedience training including, come, sit, stay, down, wait , heel, & walking up and down stairs. They will learn right from wrong. Included with all of the above your pup will learn about riding in a car. We take the pups out on field trips to various safe location, where they socialize with a variety of people & new experiences in order to prepare them for the outside world with their new families. While in training your pup will continue to live in our home with us. We teach the pups not to bite at hands, feet or clothes, and that digging & barking are not allowed. During the course of obedience training, your pup will also learn to be groomed, bathing, blow drying, nail trimming , teeth brushing & ear cleaning.
> _Back to Top
> *Do you sell the "pick of the litter"? *_
> Yes we do. The first pick of our males and our females are automatically enrolled in our Extended Puppy Training program called "Puppy Kindergarten." __We call these pups our "*Chien Supérieurs*" (translation from French: "Top Dogs.") We start with a pup that has outstanding conformation, a sweet temperament, calm disposition & high intellegence. We begin professionally training the *Chien Supérieurs* at 6 weeks old and end at around 13 weeks of age depending on every *Chien Supérieur's* individual capacity. With years experience in training, we train your puppy to be an excellent companion. When they are placed in a home, they will be potty trained, crate trained, walk on a leash, & basic obedience training including, come, sit, stay, down, wait , heel & shake. They will learn right from wrong. _
> _Included with all of the above your pup will learn about riding in a car. We take the pups out on field trips to various safe location, where they socialize with a variety of people & new experiences in order to prepare them for the outside world with their new families._
> _While in training your pup will continue to live in our home with us. We teach the pups not to bite at hands, feet or clothes, and that digging & barking are not allowed. During the course of obedience training, your pup will also learn to be groomed, bathing, blow drying, nail trimming , teeth brushing & ear cleaning._
> _Ideally, training time is about 6 weeks, although some pups take less time & other a bit more. It all depends on the pups personality & how quickly they pick up their obedience training. They are all individuals and we take that into account with their training. _
> _Please read answer #27 for more information about what is taught. *The cost for our Chien Supérieurs are $5900 each. *_


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

Gilmour cost me $1200 and was bred by a highly respected breeder with over 40 years of experience from two highly respected lines (Pebwin and Lycinan). 

Along with his purchase I get:



Frequent visits to the breeders place, where he gets to play with 5-8 dogs all day while I tend to other business.
Nail Trims when needed.
Grooming when needed.
Training Assistance when needed.
Advice any time I need it.
He was doggy-door trained at 8 weeks.
He was mostly housebroken at 8 weeks.
He was perfectly socialized with other dogs and people at 8 weeks.
Other things I am eternally grateful for that are too long to list.

All of this extra stuff costs me.... nothing. Not a dime.


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## Pointgold

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Holy Expensive Golden, Batman!
> 
> Has their only customer been Donald Trump? Or maybe Bill Gates? No, no... Steve Jobs!
> 
> I had my first Golden, Rusty, at one year old, professionally trained at the same place that trained all of San Diego's Police Dogs (no, he wasn't taught how to bite butt's ) and the whole thing, with 30 days of boarding, the training, feeding, exercise, everything was $300.


 
I know that I am the bad guy, insulting, blah blah blah. 
But, I know what goes into a _truly _wonderful puppy, and sorry, these prices are obscene. Beautifully marketed for the unaware general public, but obscene, nonetheless.:no:


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## RGoldens

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Holy Expensive Golden, Batman!
> 
> Has their only customer been Donald Trump? Or maybe Bill Gates? No, no... Steve Jobs!
> 
> I had my first Golden, Rusty, at one year old, professionally trained at the same place that trained all of San Diego's Police Dogs (no, he wasn't taught how to bite butt's ) and the whole thing, with 30 days of boarding, the training, feeding, exercise, everything was $300.


Stop being a hypocrite PointGold...how about you do what NuttinButGoldens got. Sell your pups for $300 with 30 days of boarding, training, feeding, exercise and everything. An ethical breeder never should make a profit. 

I'm realizing that this forum is probably not healthy for me personally. I wish I could have a reasonable adult conversation with some of you but you have successfully turned me away. Keep working with dogs because people like PointGold has absolutely no people skills.


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## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> Stop being a hypocrite PointGold...how about you do what NuttinButGoldens got. Sell your pups for $300 with 30 days of boarding, training, feeding, exercise and everything. An ethical breeder never should make a profit.
> 
> I'm realizing that this forum is probably not healthy for me personally. I wish I could have a reasonable adult conversation with some of you but you have successfully turned me away. Keep working with dogs because people like PointGold has absolutely no people skills.


I may be a lot of things, "Pastor", but no one can say that I am a hypocrite when it comes to my dogs. You have as much foundation to say that as you do to post much of the information that you have on your website.
Aren't you lucky to have found sound information here that you can put on that website? (Walking the walk is much more difficult, though, than is talking the talk.)


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## Doolin

Supply and demand are simple economics, we understand that. Misleading the public who are trusting in your knowledge of Golden Retrievers and breeding, are in itself something completely different. Your page comparing the two styles of goldens is so laughable for an educated breeder it makes me sick. I have seen these exact comparisons on other questionable breeders sights, one in particular was a puppy broker in Chicago. You might know him?

You see, this act of breeding is almost like playing God with these animals genetics and health. If you are not educated with full understanding of what it involves, you are in fact hurting this breed and its health. Please take the time to become educated on this breed and what is involved in successful breeding, not just basing your practice on economics!

And attacking PG's people skills is outright ridiculous! If you only knew the compasion and guidance she gives others you would quickly delete your post. Take the time to read some of the posts in other sections of this forum before you go attacking people here.

And Pastor, please keep working with people as you seem to lack the skills required for succesful breeding(that is not in respect to income, but healthy golden retrievers).


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## tippykayak

Sorry guys, but I think you've really distracted the conversation from the real point. Sellers have every right to charge what the market will bear. If a breeder can do everything ethically and convince the public the dogs are worth $5000, more power to him. 

Let's focus on the actual problems with the breeding and the misleading parts of the marketing, which RGoldens seems at least willing to listen to.

#1: White Goldens aren't rare. In some areas of the country (like here in CT), you actually see them all over the place. They probably don't quite outnumber the medium and dark gold dogs, but it's close. Much of the time, they aren't truly English-type, but simply Goldens bred very, very light. 

#2: Breeding before age 2 and without health clearances. This is really a no-brainer and the bare minimum for an ethically bred litter. There is _so_ much more that goes into a well-bred litter, but the bare bones of the ethics are a good start.

#3: Unsubstantiated claims about the health of different types of Golden Retriever. The data RGoldens has posted on his site is absolutely manipulated and misleading. Since he apparently plagiarized it, perhaps he believes it's true and can be made to understand that it isn't. Nobody can lay claim to cancer-free dogs or dogs with lower risk, and given how desperate people are not to lose their dogs in this way, it's a pretty horrible piece of manipulation, intentional or otherwise.

The only way to lay claim to healthier dogs than average is to do clearances and be totally open about the health of your breeding stock and all the dogs you produce.

#4: Getting involved in the GR community to educate yourself and to test the ability of your dogs.

How's that for a start?


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## NuttinButGoldens

That's fair. I do have to say I don't know a single person over my 20 years of Golden Ownership that would be willing to pay $6000 for a Golden, regardless of situation.

I suspect maybe the #1 Show Golden in the entire world may command it, but no one I know would pay it.



tippykayak said:


> Sorry guys, but I think you've really distracted the conversation from the real point. Sellers have every right to charge what the market will bear. If a breeder can do everything ethically and convince the public the dogs are worth $5000, more power to him.


----------



## MillysMom

NuttinButGoldens said:


> That's fair. I do have to say I don't know a single person over my 20 years of Golden Ownership that would be willing to pay $6000 for a Golden, regardless of situation.
> 
> I suspect maybe the #1 Show Golden in the entire world may command it, but no one I know would pay it.


If there are people willing to pay $3,500 for a mutt at a pet store I'm sure there must be those out there that will pay $6,000.


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## MillysMom

At first I was really upset about seeing Recherche Golden's website, but then the part of me that likes to find the good in anyone thought, "gosh, this is someone who was really trying to do what was right, but simply didn't know any better, or where to get the right information." I thought he was willing to change, and really did have good intentions. But now, I'm really questioning his motivations and intentions behind breeding.

It bothers me that breeders like this take advantage of the general public, who unfortunately do not know any better. It's easy to find a website like this, but it's harder to stumble across a website for a really great breeder... trust me, when I started looking for a puppy over 2 years ago I couldn't find ANY of the reputable breeders via the internet. Most of the skewed data presented on the Recherche Golden's website I encountered myself in my puppy search on other sites. Looking back on it, most of those were glorified puppy mills. I also don't comprehend how a self-called responsible breeder can disregard the GRCA Code of Ethics, and then try to defend doing so.

I don't know where I stand on making a profit off of dogs - I do believe a breeder's time is worth something, especially a reputable breeder who would automatically do all of the things included in RGolden's Puppy Kindergarten for the same price for each puppy sold in the litter. So, I won't say breeder's should lose money on breeding (which many of the good ones do), but I also don't think they should sell dogs at inflated prices solely for profit. So you make $100-200 a puppy, I think that's the cost of your time. But, I think anything more than that really pulls in to question a breeder's motivation for breeding.

RGolden has admitted to breeding purely for profit, and raising prices to see just how much he can get out of the puppy buying market. I'm all for capitalism, but when you're breeding dogs I think this hurts the breed. It is a fine line to make a little money off of a litter (to pay for your time and hardwork) and to charge $6,000 for puppies. I worry it would be way too easy to cross over to being motivated solely by profit, and breeding at the expense of the Golden Retriever breed.

People have pointed out many ways to improve his breeding practices, but rather than listening and learning more, he defends his practices. Why not join a local GR club? Why not prove your dogs in some area? There's a great dog agility course just off of I-81 if you're heading from Salem towards Roanoke - you can see it from I-81 - it's near the Plantation Rd. exit, I think the exit number is 145 or 146. I don't know if they still offer it, but they used to offer training there. There are some "dog schools" in Roanoke that help owners get involved in competitive obedience. Have you gone to a dog show? Have you had your dogs evaluated for conformation?

Why not explore all the Golden Retriever breed has to offer, and then use what you learn while proving your dogs in your breeding practice? That will give you a much better grasp of how to breed, because it takes a lot more than an intact male and a female. 

You will find if you are open and honest with the forum you can learn A LOT. No one is asking you to stop breeding all together, but simply to learn more about the breed so you can breed in a constructive way that will improve the breed. No one is saying don't make some profit on your dogs, but not to lead the public astray and in a way rip them off (you even said yourself the puppies enrolled in your puppy kindergarten don't get much more than the rest of the litter as far as attention and training goes). And please, stop lying to the public with false claims about European goldens... they are afterall, just goldens. 

I don't think it's too late for you to learn how to do this the right way, but you might consider taking a break to figure out what the right way is.


----------



## MillysMom

RGoldens said:


> Stop being a hypocrite PointGold...how about you do what NuttinButGoldens got. Sell your pups for $300 with 30 days of boarding, training, feeding, exercise and everything. An ethical breeder never should make a profit.
> 
> I'm realizing that this forum is probably not healthy for me personally. I wish I could have a reasonable adult conversation with some of you but you have successfully turned me away. Keep working with dogs because people like PointGold has absolutely no people skills.


Please read some of PointGold's other posts. You'll realize she is far from a hypocrite, and is instead an honest and ethical Golden Retriever enthusiast. She has educated so many people on this forum, and always tries to do what is best for the breed, or best for any dogs involved. You'll find posts of her helping people with litters that might not have been bred responsibly, but where the "breeder" really needed help, and the dogs health and well being was in jeapordy. She's also one of the chattiest people on this forum... so a lack of people skills is certainly not there. I know plenty of people who are great with animals and terrible with people, and she is not one of them.

You'll also find many posts where she, and many, many, many, many other breeders on this forum discuss what they sell puppies for, and what care they give those puppies. If you give this forum a chance you'll realize that repeat puppy customers are those who have had truly stellar experiences, and there are many members on this forum who have bought at least two puppies from a responsible breeder, because they were so impressed with the care and training their puppy came with. 

About a year ago I contacted Doolin and he responded with essentially an essay of all the questions I need to figure out in my mind before getting involved in goldens. I saved his response, and I've been crossing off each "check mark" as I learn more and gain a better understanding of the breed. 

People on this forum aren't out to get you, they're out to help you.


----------



## Selli-Belle

> First of all, I am a proud conservative who believes in capitalism. That said, I do NOT believe in profitting off the backs of my dogs, and sorry, but everything that you have said does nothing more than convince me that you _are _doing this for the money.


Yeah Pointgold! I love your stance about not profiting off the backs of your dogs!


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## JeanninePC99

I've been doing some eye opening reading today... 

http://forum.eskie.net/index.php/topic,16167.0.html


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## CarolinaCasey

^ You're a great sleuth!! 

Yikes... that is all I can manage to say.


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## AmbikaGR

I am sad to say it appears there is little doubt that my giving the benefit of the doubt was undoubtedly wrong.


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## Loisiana

JeanninePC99 said:


> I've been doing some eye opening reading today...
> 
> http://forum.eskie.net/index.php/topic,16167.0.html


 
LOL, they're the eskie version of us!


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## Doolin

Not at all suprised that you found this!!!


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## Tahnee GR

[QUOTE Yikes... that is all I can manage to say.[/QUOTE]

Yup-I'll second that


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## Pointgold

Since the good Pastor was going to be changing his website and using some of the wonderful information that he received here, I checked out his site. It touted that he is an Assistant Paster at (and named a church in Roanoke, VA along with a link). He was not mentioned on the church site, and his own website has since removed that name of the church... 

I think that there are a lot of discrepancies there that should give one pause – I am also “amused” that he questioned my people skills. As a “Pastor”, his are exemplary:

(From the Eskie Forum):


This guy sounds like a prince. 

From www.IHateBadService.ca :

Friday, May 15, 2009
Unprofessional Dog Breeders

Location: Other, MarquetteHeights
Industry: Other
Annoyed By: www.heavensenteskies.com


I emailed this company asking them how much they're puppies were because it didn't say on their website. I got a response, but I forgot to ask how much the deposit was because the only fee listed online was the shipping price. So I also ask the deposit amount and he responds by telling me the price and then proceeds to tell me to refer to the FAQs on their website for other questions. To me, that was offensive. I asked my husband to read the email and asked him if he also thought it was a rude email. He agreed it was. So I emailed the owner saying that if I couldn't ask him questions without him referring me back to his website, I don't need to be doing business with him. He responds with this:

Wendy,

You're a little too sensitive to be a dog owner. I would suggest buying a goldfish or maybe a pet rock. You're crybaby attitude is prone to yelling, screaming and temper tantrums. Please don't waste the time of a reputable breeder.

Sincerely,

Jamel Hamka

www.HeavenSentEskies.com


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## Finn's Fan

Most people can smell unscrupulous from far away, but I must say, this guy seems to go out of his way to make it blatant judging by that horrid e-mail. Good for the eskie folks to let their own know about this creep.


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## tippykayak

This is all, of course, assuming that that e-mail, which we've now posted thirdhand, is accurate. Given the way he behaved towards PG earlier in the thread, it does seem consistent, but the researcher in me doesn't like to trust information so far removed from the source.


----------



## RGoldens

tippykayak said:


> Sorry guys, but I think you've really distracted the conversation from the real point. Sellers have every right to charge what the market will bear. If a breeder can do everything ethically and convince the public the dogs are worth $5000, more power to him.
> 
> Let's focus on the actual problems with the breeding and the misleading parts of the marketing, which RGoldens seems at least willing to listen to.
> 
> #1: White Goldens aren't rare. In some areas of the country (like here in CT), you actually see them all over the place. They probably don't quite outnumber the medium and dark gold dogs, but it's close. Much of the time, they aren't truly English-type, but simply Goldens bred very, very light.
> 
> #2: Breeding before age 2 and without health clearances. This is really a no-brainer and the bare minimum for an ethically bred litter. There is _so_ much more that goes into a well-bred litter, but the bare bones of the ethics are a good start.
> 
> #3: Unsubstantiated claims about the health of different types of Golden Retriever. The data RGoldens has posted on his site is absolutely manipulated and misleading. Since he apparently plagiarized it, perhaps he believes it's true and can be made to understand that it isn't. Nobody can lay claim to cancer-free dogs or dogs with lower risk, and given how desperate people are not to lose their dogs in this way, it's a pretty horrible piece of manipulation, intentional or otherwise.
> 
> The only way to lay claim to healthier dogs than average is to do clearances and be totally open about the health of your breeding stock and all the dogs you produce.
> 
> #4: Getting involved in the GR community to educate yourself and to test the ability of your dogs.
> 
> How's that for a start?


TippyKayak is the only one so far that actually understands the real issues and I want to respond to his responsible questions.

1) I have never claimed our Goldens were "white" or "rare." I have American Eskimos and know the difference between white and cream. Also, I explain on our webpage "The English Golden Retriever" that not all European Goldens are cream. We have chosen to go that route for our own personal taste, but I even state that is not the main difference. People do think though that our dogs combined with our program is "rare." We spend more time then any breeder I know of with the pups and are professional not just in handling our puppies but also in educating our buyers. I have yet to have a buyer that has regretted buying a puppy from us. It's not just about the dogs but about how you treat your customers. If you give me your website, I could point out probably 10+ things that keep you from having customers trust in you and your program. 

2) I never bred a dog that has not passed all of his/her health clearances (hips, elbows, eyes and heart). I never bred our Goldens when they were not fully matured and a dog that 18-24 months old I believe is fully matured. As I mentioned before in posts, I disagree with the OFA stance that a dog must be 2 years old to get their final hip score. PennHip, BVA, OVC, FCI and SV Zuchtwert System ALL allow for final hip scores at 1 year old and not 2. Only 1 hip scheme out of 6 hip schemes (that I know of) have a 2 year old requirement and as I have pointed out...I believe the OFA is inferior to most other systems.
3) I rest my belief that the European Golden is healthier based the the report with GRCA and the KC. It clearly states that American Goldens have a 61.8% chance of getting cancer and European Goldens have 38.8% of getting cancer. That's a big difference. Also the report found the average American Golden lived 10 years and 8 months and the average European Golden lived 12 years and 3 months. That is quite substantial. I understand the SD is + or - 3.3 years on both but the Standard Deviation is completely subjective and not based on HARD evidence. 10 years and 8 months is based on HARD evidence. 12 years and 3 months is based on HARD evidence. It's about time for both the GRCA and KC to do another report. You are correct about the dysplasia. The KC doesn't give any numbers on dysplasia so we will just have to rest on the hip/elbow testing. That has been completely removed from my website.
4) I am interested in getting my dogs into dog shows soon. AKC penalizes for the light coat so we will be going to IACBA dog shows. The IACBA has just opened up a dog show in Richmond, VA for next month. This is the first dog show that came near us in a while. Since I am a pastor, I cannot participate myself on the Saturday and Sunday so I will need to hire a handler. Does anyone know a good handler in the Richmond, VA area? (By the way...I am an assistant pastor. Call our church number if you want proof: http://fbcvirginia.org/contact/).


----------



## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> TippyKayak is the only one so far that actually understands the real issues and I want to respond to his responsible questions.
> 
> 1) I have never claimed our Goldens were "white" or "rare." I have American Eskimos and know the difference between white and cream. Also, I explain on our webpage "The English Golden Retriever" that not all European Goldens are cream. We have chosen to go that route for our own personal taste, but I even state that is not the main difference. People do think though that our dogs combined with our program is "rare." We spend more time then any breeder I know of with the pups and are professional not just in handling our puppies but also in educating our buyers. I have yet to have a buyer that has regretted buying a puppy from us. It's not just about the dogs but about how you treat your customers. If you give me your website, I could point out probably 10+ things that keep you from having customers trust in you and your program.
> 
> 2) I never bred a dog that has not passed all of his/her health clearances (hips, elbows, eyes and heart). I never bred our Goldens when they were not fully matured and a dog that 18-24 months old I believe is fully matured. As I mentioned before in posts, I disagree with the OFA stance that a dog must be 2 years old to get their final hip score. PennHip, BVA, OVC, FCI and SV Zuchtwert System ALL allow for final hip scores at 1 year old and not 2. Only 1 hip scheme out of 6 hip schemes (that I know of) have a 2 year old requirement and as I have pointed out...I believe the OFA is inferior to most other systems.
> 3) I rest my belief that the European Golden is healthier based the the report with GRCA and the KC. It clearly states that American Goldens have a 61.8% chance of getting cancer and European Goldens have 38.8% of getting cancer. That's a big difference. Also the report found the average American Golden lived 10 years and 8 months and the average European Golden lived 12 years and 3 months. That is quite substantial. I understand the SD is + or - 3.3 years on both but the Standard Deviation is completely subjective and not based on HARD evidence. 10 years and 8 months is based on HARD evidence. 12 years and 3 months is based on HARD evidence. It's about time for both the GRCA and KC to do another report. You are correct about the dysplasia. The KC doesn't give any numbers on dysplasia so we will just have to rest on the hip/elbow testing. That has been completely removed from my website.
> 4) I am interested in getting my dogs into dog shows soon. AKC penalizes for the light coat so we will be going to IACBA dog shows. The IACBA has just opened up a dog show in Richmond, VA for next month. This is the first dog show that came near us in a while. Since I am a pastor, I cannot participate myself on the Saturday and Sunday so I will need to hire a handler. Does anyone know a good handler in the Richmond, VA area? (By the way...I am an assistant pastor. Call our church number if you want proof: http://fbcvirginia.org/contact/).


1. You obviously do not know many breeders. What you do is the absolute minimum that ANY good breeder does. You are not special.
And you are completely and absolutely out of line and persumptuous in your stating that YOU can point out 10+ things that keep people from trusting me. It's laughable. When YOUR site has SO MANY _NOT TRUSTING YOU!!!! _My puppy buyers, sir, trust me implicitely, as do people who I have not even sold a puppy to but have helped to find one. 

2. I wonder how many of the dogs that you have produced that have not had clearances done would pass? Not testing every dog produced (and given the number you have produced v the number on the databases it's significant) does not mean that you are producing 100% healthy dogs... 
You are SO much smarter and better trained than those at OFA. Perhaps you can enlighten them...

3. Again, you're so lucky to have found this forum so that you can change wording on your site to appear even more knowledgeable, whether you practice it or not.

4. Have fun at those IACBA shows. I've seen dogs that are conformationally nearly unidentifiable as the breed they are representing. You'll likely do well.


----------



## tippykayak

RGoldens said:


> TippyKayak is the only one so far that actually understands the real issues and I want to respond to his responsible questions.
> 
> 1) I have never claimed our Goldens were "white" or "rare."


It's called "Recherche" Goldens! According to _your own_ definition, that means "sought out, exotic or choice." And you claim they're "crème," not white, but there's no difference to the average buyer. It's semantics. You're selling your dogs as exotic, extra-light animals. Removing the word "white" doesn't change that.




RGoldens said:


> 2) I never bred a dog that has not passed all of his/her health clearances (hips, elbows, eyes and heart). I never bred our Goldens when they were not fully matured and a dog that 18-24 months old I believe is fully matured. As I mentioned before in posts, I disagree with the OFA stance that a dog must be 2 years old to get their final hip score. PennHip, BVA, OVC, FCI and SV Zuchtwert System ALL allow for final hip scores at 1 year old and not 2. Only 1 hip scheme out of 6 hip schemes (that I know of) have a 2 year old requirement and as I have pointed out...I believe the OFA is inferior to most other systems.


You can pooh-pooh any ethical breeding guidelines you want, and you're right that top breeders do breed before 2 years _in some cases_, but it's not just OFA that relies on that 2-year guideline. The GRCA also emphasizes that dogs are not done developing until that time. Hip scores can and do change between 1 and 2 years. Also, you're completely ignoring the fact that the two year guideline helps you better identify which dogs are actually worth breeding. Clearances are the bare minimum for a breeding, but ideally, you're not just putting two healthy dogs together; you're really trying to improve your stock so they'll be better examples of the breed. If you want to use the UK standard instead of the AKC, more power to you, but if you're breeding all your dogs at 18 months, because that's the bare minimum, how on earth are you evaluating your dogs to see if they're worth breeding at all? That's what showing in obedience, conformation, and other venues is all about, knowing if a dog is actually worth reproducing.



RGoldens said:


> 3) I rest my belief that the European Golden is healthier based the the report with GRCA and the KC. It clearly states that American Goldens have a 61.8% chance of getting cancer and European Goldens have 38.8% of getting cancer. That's a big difference. Also the report found the average American Golden lived 10 years and 8 months and the average European Golden lived 12 years and 3 months. That is quite substantial. I understand the SD is + or - 3.3 years on both but the Standard Deviation is completely subjective and not based on HARD evidence. 10 years and 8 months is based on HARD evidence. 12 years and 3 months is based on HARD evidence. It's about time for both the GRCA and KC to do another report. You are correct about the dysplasia. The KC doesn't give any numbers on dysplasia so we will just have to rest on the hip/elbow testing. That has been completely removed from my website.


If you don't understand why you can't compare apples and oranges, I really can't help you any further. I was very clear in my last post. It's not solely about the SD, but also about the fact that neither study was attempting to compare longevity or cancer rates between types. That AKC study probably covered lots of English-type Goldens, and the UK study probably covered lots of American type. Those surveys are geographical, not type-based. Not all Goldens in England are English-type, and not all Goldens in the US conform to AKC standard. In fact, so many Goldens in the US are produced by puppy mills that health information would be entirely skewed. Those milled (or otherwise badly bred) dogs bring down longevity overall, but offer no indication of the longevity of a properly bred American Golden.

As far as cancer rates, dozens of other studies between breeds and types have confirmed that all Goldens have approximately equal risk. It's dishonest to take two studies that did not examine that link and use them to controvert studies that have disproven that link.

Those statistics help you sell dogs. I understand why you want to defend them. But it's pretty silly of you to come on here and pretend that it's science or "HARD evidence." I doubt you'll find anyone who doesn't sell "creme" dogs who will defend those claims.



RGoldens said:


> 4) I am interested in getting my dogs into dog shows soon. AKC penalizes for the light coat so we will be going to IACBA dog shows. The IACBA has just opened up a dog show in Richmond, VA for next month. This is the first dog show that came near us in a while. Since I am a pastor, I cannot participate myself on the Saturday and Sunday so I will need to hire a handler. Does anyone know a good handler in the Richmond, VA area? (By the way...I am an assistant pastor. Call our church number if you want proof: http://fbcvirginia.org/contact/).


Do you mean the IABCA?


----------



## AmbikaGR

RGoldens said:


> 3) I rest my belief that the European Golden is healthier based the the report with GRCA and the KC. It clearly states that American Goldens have a 61.8% chance of getting cancer and European Goldens have 38.8% of getting cancer. That's a big difference. Also the report found the average American Golden lived 10 years and 8 months and the average European Golden lived 12 years and 3 months. That is quite substantial. I understand the SD is + or - 3.3 years on both but the Standard Deviation is completely subjective and not based on HARD evidence. 10 years and 8 months is based on HARD evidence. 12 years and 3 months is based on HARD evidence. It's about time for both the GRCA and KC to do another report. You are correct about the dysplasia. The KC doesn't give any numbers on dysplasia so we will just have to rest on the hip/elbow testing. That has been completely removed from my website.


Problem with using the GRCA "survey" is that it is just that a "survey" and of just 746 dogs at that. It is not a detailed study. Do you know the pedigrees of all these dogs. How many were of British/European background?


----------



## Pointgold

My my my... isn't THIS interesting... According to this, Pastor Jamel's wonderful English Cremes are _already _"proven in the ring". And have *OFA CLEARANCES.*

The internet is a wonderful thing...



http://www.qualitydogs.com/140275/GLDN/memberprofile.html

Registration: AKC 
100% English Cremes from the best English Golden bloodlines in Europe. Our Goldens come with OFA hips, elbows and heart & CERF eye clearances and have more World Champions in their bloodlines than almost every English Creme Goldens in America.

All Goldens come with up to a 2 YEAR warranty and AKC paperwork. They are proven in the ring and are guaranteed to be healthy. We only have a few English Goldens and work full-time at home, giving us the ability to adequately care for each puppy physically, emotionally and socially.

All pups will be crate-trained and partially potty-trained. Recherche Goldens will save their owners days and weeks of training.

Please visit www.RechercheGoldens.com and see the difference.


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## tippykayak

AmbikaGR said:


> Problem with using the GRCA "survey" is that it is just that a "survey" and of just 746 dogs at that. It is not a detailed study. Do you know the pedigrees of all these dogs. How many were of British/European background?


And how many were backyard-bred or from mills? We know dogs from those backgrounds have depressed longevity overall, if not higher cancer rates.

There's also diagnosis prejudice. What are the general standards of care given to dogs in the UK? Chemo has become very popular in the US, so dogs are often diagnosed in a more detailed fashion.

Ten years ago (when that AKC study was done), CODs for lots of dogs were not necessarily diagnosed by necroscopy, so if a dog had a mass on the x-ray and then died, hemangiosarcoma may have been the assumed COD. In the UK, many more dogs may simply had unknown CODs that don't contribute to cancer percentages in the study.

But anyway, who cares about these little differences? The stats as they stand, unexamined, help the breeder sell cream dogs.

This goes right along with all that NuVet nonsense too.


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## Pointgold

http://www.ripoffreport.com/animal-services/recherche-goldens/recherche-goldens-jamel-char-a584a.htm

Now, the Pastor claims to have never sold a dog to anyone in MA, but I saw a map on his site and MA was pinpointed... it's all so confusing.


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## tippykayak

Ah yes, proven in the ring, the IABCA ring they haven't entered yet, in which dogs do not compete against each other. An IABCA championship is often listed as "Int'l Ch," even though it's no harder to get than a CCA. 

Am I right about this?


----------



## Pointgold

http://www.webclassifieds.us/281458/World-Champion-English-Creme-Golden-Retriever-Pups.html

Recherche" has 3 definitions. 1) Sought out with care 2) Very rare, exotic or choice 3) Of studied refinement and elegance.

All 3 definitions fit our Goldens Retrievers and our goal is for those definitions to fit us as breeders.

What makes us stand out amongst other breeders are several distinctions:

1. We have the highest quality Golden Retrievers on the East Coast and most likely all of the US. We have hand selected each of our four Goldens from the highest accomplished breeders in Europe. They are not just "Championship" bred Goldens...They are "World Championship" bred Goldens.

2. We are extremely detailed oriented and professional. If you visit our website you can see that we painstakenly have designed it to be as helpful as possible. You can find answers to almost all of your questions regarding Golden Retrievers, the English Golden Retrievers and Recherche Goldens. 

3. We are not a large kennel. Since we only have 3 Golden Retrievers on site (1 is co-owned) & Charity Hamka is at home full-time we are able to adequately raise our Goldens and each puppy physically, emotionally and socially. Many professional kennels have 10, 20 and sometimes 30 dogs on the premises. Having so many dogs and so many litters makes it impossible to adequately care for each puppy individually. We breed for the advancement of the Golden, the pleasure of our customers and the pleasure of ourselves. We do not breed for income.


Added: This "breeder" advertises on a myriad of Puppy4$ale type sites. On ALL of them he claims to have OFA clearances, as well as "the highest quality Golden Retrievers on the East coast." 

After all this, I need to take a shower and take some Pepto-Bismol. He was given more than the benefit of the doubt by some of our more generous GRF members. It would appear that benefit was wasted, as he forgot that he'd put all this out all over the internet and figured that we had only seen his home site.


----------



## RGoldens

Pointgold said:


> http://www.ripoffreport.com/animal-services/recherche-goldens/recherche-goldens-jamel-char-a584a.htm
> 
> Now, the Pastor claims to have never sold a dog to anyone in MA, but I saw a map on his site and MA was pinpointed... it's all so confusing.



I have NEVER sold a GOLDEN RETRIEVER to anybody in MA. The map that you are speaking of is on my American Eskimo site. This is written about a GOLDEN RETRIEVER. I'm sorry if that's confusing. If you believe this article then you are either ignorant or most likely you are dishonest. At the time of the article, I never had a puppy that was 12 weeks old! Victoria's pups (our only litter to date) was 11 weeks old. Also, we have a warranty. If this is true then they can EASILY get their money back. They never show any proof in this article. I've already contacted all 9 of my buyers regarding this article and all have been amazed and disheartened by the lies that allowed to be reported on RipOff Report. 

Let us all come clean. PointGold....what's your website?


----------



## Debles

Breeders like him make me sad and a need for Pepto also, Laura. 
I feel bad for the people who adopt his pups and the dogs. : (


----------



## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> I have NEVER sold a GOLDEN RETRIEVER to anybody in MA. The map that you are speaking of is on my American Eskimo site. This is written about a GOLDEN RETRIEVER.
> 
> It doesn't take much to confuse you does it?


 
I do hope that the youth you minister to see a brighter side of you...

Can you justify for me how it is that on all the Puppy4$Sale sites that the wondrous Recherche Golden Retrievers advetises on you state that all your dogs have OFA cleared hips/elbows, hearts, eye? Yet, on the OFA Database, there is one Gordon Setter and 2 Briards with the Recherche prefix, but not ONE Golden Retriever? And you come here and state that you think the OFA is "inferior"? (My guess is that the average pet buyer has heard of OFA, so it "looks good on the resume'...)


----------



## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> I have NEVER sold a GOLDEN RETRIEVER to anybody in MA. The map that you are speaking of is on my American Eskimo site. This is written about a GOLDEN RETRIEVER. I'm sorry if that's confusing. If you believe this article then you are either ignorant or most likely you are dishonest. At the time of the article, I never had a puppy that was 12 weeks old! Victoria's pups (our only litter to date) was 11 weeks old. Also, we have a warranty. If this is true then they can EASILY get their money back. They never show any proof in this article. I've already contacted all 9 of my buyers regarding this article and all have been amazed and disheartened by the lies that allowed to be reported on RipOff Report.
> 
> Let us all come clean. PointGold....what's your website?


 
Anything you want to know about me or my breedings has been laid bare here on this site for several years. If you'd like to know about my website, check out the thread here called "A word about breeder websites".


----------



## RGoldens

Pointgold said:


> Anything you want to know about me or my breedings has been laid bare here on this site for several years. If you'd like to know about my website, check out the thread here called "A word about breeder websites".


Do you have a website? What is it?


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

RGoldens said:


> I have NEVER sold a GOLDEN RETRIEVER to anybody in MA. The map that you are speaking of is on my American Eskimo site. This is written about a GOLDEN RETRIEVER. I'm sorry if that's confusing. If you believe this article then you are either ignorant or most likely you are dishonest. At the time of the article, I never had a puppy that was 12 weeks old! Victoria's pups (our only litter to date) was 11 weeks old. Also, we have a warranty. If this is true then they can EASILY get their money back. They never show any proof in this article. I've already contacted all 9 of my buyers regarding this article and all have been amazed and disheartened by the lies that allowed to be reported on RipOff Report.
> 
> Let us all come clean. PointGold....what's your website?


You sir, are very offensive !!!!! Pointgold iS A PROVEN here. She is a top notch breeder and very generous with her time in educating golden lovers. She has gone above and beyond to ensure the well being of many many goldens and owners. The breed is in good hands if Laura is involved.


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## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> Do you have a website? What is it?


You read the thread I referred to.


----------



## RGoldens

Pointgold said:


> You read the thread I referred to.


It must be nice to be anonymous. You can say anything and not prove you can live it. I've opened myself to you now it's time to open yourself up and show what's really inside. Why won't you just give me your website? What is there to hide?


----------



## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> It must be nice to be anonymous. You can say anything and not prove you can live it. I've opened myself to you now it's time to open yourself up and show what's really inside. Why won't you just give me your website? What is there to hide?


You have no idea what you are talking about. I know that you read the thread, which means that you know my website status. I have nothing to hide, and have been FAR from anonymous, here, or anywhere else.

Re: "opening yourself to me", I've not seen an answer to my last questions... I'll repost to make it easy:

Can you justify for me how it is that on all the Puppy4$Sale sites that the wondrous Recherche Golden Retrievers advetises on you state that all your dogs have OFA cleared hips/elbows, hearts, eye? Yet, on the OFA Database, there is one Gordon Setter and 2 Briards with the Recherche prefix, but not ONE Golden Retriever? And you come here and state that you think the OFA is "inferior"? (My guess is that the average pet buyer has heard of OFA, so it "looks good on the resume'...)


----------



## RGoldens

Pointgold said:


> You have no idea what you are talking about. I know that you read the thread, which means that you know my website status. I have nothing to hide, and have been FAR from anonymous, here, or anywhere else.
> 
> Re: "opening yourself to me", I've not seen an answer to my last questions...


To open up myself...Why isn't there any OFA listings under the name "Recherche?" Are you kidding? Why should I even waste my time answering this question?! Maybe because NONE of my dog's have the name Recherche in it! When I get my final BVA clearances, I will change OFA to OFA/BVA (OFA is for the heart and eyes, BVA for the hips and elbows).

I know you don't have a website. I think it's simply a cop-out. The only reason you don't have a website is b/c you know what it would do to you on this forum. This forum is full of breeders that are jealous, ignorant and incapable of reason. I do what I believe is right and not what some weird breeder on this forum believes is right. You like being the "hero." It's easy to do that when you are anonymous. Since you don't have a website then how about giving all of your information (name, address, phone number, dog AKC #, k9data pedigrees, warranty info). You're website doesn't have to be simply about pictures. You're an "expert" on what is right and wrong...just put what's right on your site. It's so simple yet you won't do it? Odd isn't it?


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## Loisiana

Good, reputable breeders don't need websites because they don't need to advertise in order to sell their dogs. Word of mouth, reputation, and personal experiences is enough to gather a waiting list for puppies without ever advertising. Any health info on any of their dogs is readily available on other sites. I know of many, many good breeders that do not have websites.


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## CarolinaCasey

Why have a website when word of mouth and relationships built through the years within the golden community are more than enough? I've seen some of PG's dogs on k9data. They have pedigrees that are drool-worthy and they typify the standard both in structure and temperament (I'm sure!). They're gorgeous. 

Please stop shifting focus from what you're doing to PG.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

RGoldens said:


> To open up myself...Why isn't there any OFA listings under the name "Recherche?" Are you kidding? Why should I even waste my time answering this question?! Maybe because NONE of my dog's have the name Recherche in it! When I get my final BVA clearances, I will change OFA to OFA/BVA (OFA is for the heart and eyes, BVA for the hips and elbows).
> 
> I know you don't have a website. I think it's simply a cop-out. The only reason you don't have a website is b/c you know what it would do to you on this forum. This forum is full of breeders that are jealous, ignorant and incapable of reason. I do what I believe is right and not what some weird breeder on this forum believes is right. You like being the "hero." It's easy to do that when you are anonymous. Since you don't have a website then how about giving all of your information (name, address, phone number, dog AKC #, k9data pedigrees, warranty info). You're website doesn't have to be simply about pictures. You're an "expert" on what is right and wrong...just put what's right on your site. It's so simple yet you won't do it? Odd isn't it?


REALLY?????? Doesn't take a genius to type Nitelite (which is on Laura's signature) into K9data and access her dogs. You really really should be ashamed. You owe Laura and this board a huge apology.


----------



## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> To open up myself...Why isn't there any OFA listings under the name "Recherche?" Are you kidding? Why should I even waste my time answering this question?! Maybe because NONE of my dog's have the name Recherche in it! When I get my final BVA clearances, I will change OFA to OFA/BVA (OFA is for the heart and eyes, BVA for the hips and elbows).
> 
> I know you don't have a website. I think it's simply a cop-out. The only reason you don't have a website is b/c you know what it would do to you on this forum. This forum is full of breeders that are jealous, ignorant and incapable of reason. I do what I believe is right and not what some weird breeder on this forum believes is right. You like being the "hero." It's easy to do that when you are anonymous. Since you don't have a website then how about giving all of your information (name, address, phone number, dog AKC #, k9data pedigrees, warranty info). You're website doesn't have to be simply about pictures. You're an "expert" on what is right and wrong...just put what's right on your site. It's so simple yet you won't do it? Odd isn't it?


 
It's not a cop out at all. My information is readily available. I have been a member in good standing of the GRCA since 1987. I am so far from anonymous it isn't even funny.

As for your dogs on the OFA database - your "stud" had prelims (normal elbows, FAIR hips). Victoria has nothing. Amalie has prelims (again, FAIR hips). Kati has nothing. Are you saying that you do not use the Recherche prefix on the dogs that you have produced? No matter, though, as any offspring of any of these dogs who have clearances would appear on the database as "Offspring". 

We're not stupid.


----------



## NuttinButGoldens

Exactly. This is how I found Gilmours breeder. I'll take recommendations from other well-known and respected breeders long before a fancy web site.





Loisiana said:


> Good, reputable breeders don't need websites because they don't need to advertise in order to sell their dogs. Word of mouth, reputation, and personal experiences is enough to gather a waiting list for puppies without ever advertising. Any health info on any of their dogs is readily available on other sites. I know of many, many good breeders that do not have websites.


----------



## Pointgold

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> REALLY?????? Doesn't take a genius to type Nitelite (which is on Laura's signature) into K9data and access her dogs. You really really should be ashamed. You owe Laura and this board a huge apology.


 
Thank you, but an apology from this man would mean little to me. What this person thinks of me means next to nothing. The many people in the dog world who I know, and who know my dogs, and who I care for and _respect _in kind, are the ones whose opinions and evaluations matter to me, as are the happy families with Nitelite dogs in their homes.

I almost feel sorry for him.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Pointgold said:


> Thank you, but an apology from this man would mean little to me. What this person thinks of me means next to nothing. The many people in the dog world who I know, and who know my dogs, and who I care for and _respect _in kind, are the ones whose opinions and evaluations matter to me, as are the happy families with Nitelite dogs in their homes.
> 
> I almost feel sorry for him.


I know, but it seemed more polite than just wishing he'd disappear.... PISS-WHA!:doh:


----------



## Selli-Belle

Two questions;

1) In the statistics class I took (o.k. it was 20 years ago), I thought I learned that the SD was calculated from the initial data that was used, therefore it is not subjective at all but part of the "hard data." Am I correct?

2) The OFA might list heart and eye clearances, but they are courtesy listings. They are actually done by other groups. So RGolden saying he uses the OFA for eyes and heart is meaningless. Why would you post your data on the OFA site if you don't use it?


----------



## LibertyME

Granted I am not fluent and only read geeky french engineering terms....but the noun form of recherche translates to 'research'...
interesting eh?



_"We named our kennel after the French word "Recherche" meaning sought out, exotic or choice. "_


----------



## Pointgold

Pointgold said:


> It's not a cop out at all. My information is readily available. I have been a member in good standing of the GRCA since 1987. I am so far from anonymous it isn't even funny.
> 
> As for your dogs on the OFA database - your "stud" had prelims (normal elbows, FAIR hips). Victoria has nothing. Amalie has prelims (again, FAIR hips). Kati has nothing. Are you saying that you do not use the Recherche prefix on the dogs that you have produced? No matter, though, as any offspring of any of these dogs who have clearances would appear on the database as "Offspring".
> 
> We're not stupid.


 
I musta missed his answer. I better do more recherche.


----------



## Pointgold

RGoldens said:


> Victoria's pups (our only litter to date) was 11 weeks old. Also, we have a warranty. If this is true then they can EASILY get their money back. They never show any proof in this article. I've already contacted all 9 of my buyers regarding this article and all have been amazed and disheartened by the lies that allowed to be reported on RipOff Report.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see that this post in now edited again. Recherche Goldens has only had ONE litter to date.
> This changes the whole ball game, in my eyes. First, their website (and ads on other sites) most certainly would have potential buyers believe that they are experience, professional, long time breeders with knowledge beyond compare. Nine puppies have been produced, and he can state unequivocably that his dogs are the healthiest in the universe, and have been proven in the rings, and have all their clearances.
> This guy's not worth the bandwidth anymore.
Click to expand...


----------



## Emma&Tilly

It is so sad that people exploit the golden retriever breed and give an impression of some kind of magical off shoot of golden called an 'English cream/creme/whatever.... I wouldn't know whether to eat one or fuss one! The ironic thing is, dogs that are on American breeders site, who have gathered goldens from all different European countries, don't look a jot like a well bred golden retriever from the UK. I am sad that many Americans have completely the wrong impression of what a golden from this side of the pond actually looks like! Some seem to have clung onto this image of a HUGE, white, lumbering dog and completely RUN with it!


----------



## tippykayak

"We have the highest quality Golden Retrievers on the East Coast and most likely all of the US. We have hand selected each of our four Goldens from the highest accomplished breeders in Europe. They are not just "Championship" bred Goldens...They are "World Championship" bred Goldens."

This statement really gets me. By what criteria are these the "highest quality" Goldens in the nation? It's relatively easy to procure the offspring of a dog titled in Eastern Europe. Pretty much every "creme" breeder who has a website advertises having the offspring of titled dogs.

But when you put two titled dogs together, even two who are excellent dogs and have legitimate titles, not all the offspring will be champion-quality. Since these Recherche dogs have never been shown in any venue, how can you claim that they're even champion quality, much less the bestest dogs on the entire coast or in the entire country?

Hype, hype, hype.


----------



## tippykayak

Selli-Belle said:


> Two questions;
> 
> 1) In the statistics class I took (o.k. it was 20 years ago), I thought I learned that the SD was calculated from the initial data that was used, therefore it is not subjective at all but part of the "hard data." Am I correct?


Yup. SD's are calculated mathematically based on the sample size and deviation in whatever is being measured. There's nothing subjective about them.


----------



## AmbikaGR

RGoldens said:


> To open up myself...Why isn't there any OFA listings under the name "Recherche?" Are you kidding? Why should I even waste my time answering this question?! Maybe because NONE of my dog's have the name Recherche in it! When I get my final BVA clearances, I will change OFA to OFA/BVA (OFA is for the heart and eyes, BVA for the hips and elbows).
> 
> I know you don't have a website. I think it's simply a cop-out. The only reason you don't have a website is b/c you know what it would do to you on this forum. This forum is full of breeders that are jealous, ignorant and incapable of reason. I do what I believe is right and not what some weird breeder on this forum believes is right. You like being the "hero." It's easy to do that when you are anonymous. Since you don't have a website then how about giving all of your information (name, address, phone number, dog AKC #, k9data pedigrees, warranty info). You're website doesn't have to be simply about pictures. You're an "expert" on what is right and wrong...just put what's right on your site. It's so simple yet you won't do it? Odd isn't it?



What a truly tangled web you weave there sir and it appears that you have resorted to what every unscrupulous breeder resorts to here when they realize that smoke and mirrors will not work - nasty attacks on those that have been able to call them out. Not very typical of a minister in my humble opinion.


----------



## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> It is so sad that people exploit the golden retriever breed and give an impression of some kind of magical off shoot of golden called an 'English cream/creme/whatever.... I wouldn't know whether to eat one or fuss one! The ironic thing is, dogs that are on American breeders site, who have gathered goldens from all different European countries, don't look a jot like a well bred golden retriever from the UK. I am sad that many Americans have completely the wrong impression of what a golden from this side of the pond actually looks like! Some seem to have clung onto this image of a HUGE, white, lumbering dog and completely RUN with it!


 
And I hope that our UK friends and colleagues KNOW that we do not for one second buy into the hype of those who try to scam the public in this way, and that we truly do recognize and appreciate the lovely UK dogs that good breeders there work just as hard to produce as good breeders here do the "American" style GR's.


----------



## tippykayak

Hey RGoldens - can you confirm for us that you actually wrote that mean e-mail that was posted in this thread?


----------



## Emma&Tilly

Pointgold said:


> And I hope that our UK friends and colleagues KNOW that we do not for one second buy into the hype of those who try to scam the public in this way, and that we truly do recognize and appreciate the lovely UK dogs that good breeders there work just as hard to produce as good breeders here do the "American" style GR's.


oh luckily the collection of breeders/fanciers on _this_ site are extremely knowledgeable and are willing to share their expertise with others and dispell such myths. I worry about the people that don't make it to sites like this. But I know for sure that breeders such as yourself, PG, are JUST as upset about this type of thing as people over this side of the pond. After all there is only one breed and we all want what is best for it! (and this type of thing certainly doesn't help!)


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> Hey RGoldens - can you confirm for us that you actually wrote that mean e-mail that was posted in this thread?


 
Of course he didn't. Somebody just made it up, just like they made up a Rip-Off report, and just like I made up everything about myself and my dogs.


----------



## sammydog

Well, I was just looking these dogs up again on k9data and OFA... Did anyone else notice that OFA now has a highlighted warning regarding the prelims stating: "* The OFA recommends a final hip and/or elbow evaluation at 24 months of age or older." I like that they did that!

I also noticed PG stated Kati had nothing in OFA, but there are clearances listed for her on her k9data page... I tried looking her up in OFA as well and did not find anything. So I searched the OFA Heart # listed for her on k9data, and that is the clearance number for Amalie!


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Of course he didn't. Somebody just made it up, just like they made up a Rip-Off report, and just like I made up everything about myself and my dogs.


Of course. It's a conspiracy by competing breeders who want to trash his totally ethical business.


----------



## Pointgold

sammydog said:


> Well, I was just looking these dogs up again on k9data and OFA... Did anyone else notice that OFA now has a highlighted warning regarding the prelims stating: "* The OFA recommends a final hip and/or elbow evaluation at 24 months of age or older." I like that they did that!
> 
> I also noticed PG stated Kati had nothing in OFA, but there are clearances listed for her on her k9data page... I tried looking her up in OFA as well and did not find anything. So I searched the OFA Heart # listed for her on k9data, and that is the clearance number for Amalie!


 
Wait - can you please write a little slower? I'm taking notes (and I am easily confused...) for when I start my website so that I too can present myself to be a professional breeder with the highest ethics.


----------



## damita

LOL - this thread is too funny! Come on - it is kinda fun to watch someone scramble to cover their lies against those who truly know better.

And for the record, OVC (Ontario Vet College) will not give clearances on 1 year olds like he claims (they allow hip/elbows AFTER 18 months).


----------



## Pointgold

damita said:


> LOL - this thread is too funny! Come on - it is kinda fun to watch someone scramble to cover their lies against those who truly know better.
> 
> And for the record, OVC (Ontario Vet College) will not give clearances on 1 year olds like he claims (they allow hip/elbows AFTER 18 months).


 
I suppose it might be amusing if you can take away the fact that there are actually DOGS involved here, and likely nice people who don't know how to verify this stuff.


----------



## sterregold

Pointgold said:


> I suppose it might be amusing if you can take away the fact that there are actually DOGS involved here, and likely nice people who don't know how to verify this stuff.


Absolutely. These sorts of operations are very frustrating to those of us who use English and European bloodlines because we genuinely appreciate the qualities we can get through them. The amount of time I spend on re-education after receiving yet another "Do you breed English Cremes?" email/phone call is beyond disheartening!! The contacts from the BYBs interested in Win because he is light and so is their girl is something else again....


----------



## Pointgold

See why I am confused??? Mr. Pastor Recherche posted today that he has only had one litter. Yet, his first post here contained this:

"My vet told us that there isn't much difference between OFA Preliminary and OFA final hip/elbow scores and that breeding your dogs with the preliminary reports would be acceptable. We tested all of our dogs with their hips, elbows, eyes (CERF) and heart before we bred. Our Amalie had puppies when she was 2 years and 2 months old. Our Kati will be having puppies when she is 2 years and 1 week old. Victoria was the only one to have puppies before she was 2 years old. She was 18 months old when she had her litter and produced extremely healthy puppies."

I'm not very smart, as we've been told, but I THINK that 1+1= 2. 
Now, I'm not sure how it is that we know that Kati will be having puppies when she is 2 years and 1 week old, but it means that she was bred before she was two...


----------



## Pointgold

sterregold said:


> Absolutely. These sorts of operations are very frustrating to those of us who use English and European bloodlines because we genuinely appreciate the qualities we can get through them. The amount of time I spend on re-education after receiving yet another "Do you breed English Cremes?" email/phone call is beyond disheartening!! The contacts from the BYBs interested in Win because he is light and so is their girl is something else again....


 
I understand, because even those of us who do not incorporate foreign bloodines into our breeding programs are these days spending a large amount of time on the "English Cream/Creme/Creme' thing ourselves... including referring to GOOD breeders who are doing some breeding of English and European GOLDEN RETRIEVERS.


----------



## Pointgold

Maybe, now that we are unraveling the mysteries, if Mr. Pastor Recherche comes back, he can give us some idea of his qualifications to be training these dogs for thousands of dollars. Since he is new to breeding, has had only one (oops - two) litters, and has never shown... has he ever done any obedience competition to put even a simple CD, or, earned so much as a CGC certificate on a dog? 
I've been doing this a real long time, and before I'd pay someone that kind of money to train a puppy, I'd need to see a truckload of credentials. Shoot, I've been teaching a pretty darn successful Puppy Kindergarten for 25 years, and charge a fraction of that, a portion of which I donate to the local Humane Society. I wouldn't pay ME as much as he's charging!


----------



## mylissyk

I think this has been beat to death, and now it's going around for the fourth or fifth time. All valid points, but really it's done.


----------



## sterregold

Pointgold said:


> I understand, because even those of us who do not incorporate foreign bloodines into our breeding programs are these days spending a large amount of time on the "English Cream/Creme/Creme' thing ourselves... including referring to GOOD breeders who are doing some breeding of English and European GOLDEN RETRIEVERS.


And we appreciate it!! It has just really exploded, even here in Canada where these bloodlines have been common for a very long time. And now they are getting savvy and sending their dogs out with pros to get championships--saw one of those out this weekend at the show we were at, and another from a doodle breeder who likes to advertise she is using Ch lines. More smoke and mirrors to make the unsuspecting think they are legit.


----------



## tippykayak

mylissyk said:


> I think this has been beat to death, and now it's going around for the fourth or fifth time. All valid points, but really it's done.


Yes, depending on what the breeder comes back to the thread and says. I think it's a positive thing that the lies that have been told have been called out on the open internet for anybody who's doing a little research.


----------



## Jersey's Mom

mylissyk said:


> I think this has been beat to death, and now it's going around for the fourth or fifth time. All valid points, but really it's done.


That may be, but all this talk has bumped us up to the #4 result when one does a Google search for "Recherche Goldens." (It's their site, one of their advertisements on a random dogs for sale site, rip off report, us.) Hopefully that increases the odds that someone researching this kennel will find the eye opening information contained in this thread, leading them to look a little further for their new furry friend.

Julie and Jersey


----------



## Pointgold

sterregold said:


> And we appreciate it!! It has just really exploded, even here in Canada where these bloodlines have been common for a very long time. And now they are getting savvy and sending their dogs out with pros to get championships--saw one of those out this weekend at the show we were at, and another from a doodle breeder who likes to advertise she is using Ch lines. More smoke and mirrors to make the unsuspecting think they are legit.


 
Business must be bad for those "pros"... :uhoh: Seriously, none of the good pros here would put most of those dogs on their trucks even for filler, let alone stand a chance of finishing them. *I'm not talking about the GOOD imports, but rather the likes of the dogs imported by the White Dove type kennels, from Hungary, Romania, etc. As has been said before, breeders rarely, if ever, export their best dogs. But they've sure found a market for their lesser dogs here in the US.


----------



## CarolinaCasey

Jersey's Mom said:


> That may be, but all this talk has bumped us up to the #4 result when one does a Google search for "Recherche Goldens." (It's their site, one of their advertisements on a random dogs for sale site, rip off report, us.) Hopefully that increases the odds that someone researching this kennel will find the eye opening information contained in this thread, leading them to look a little further for their new furry friend.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


Excellent point. I hope this helps save one unsuspecting family! For that, it's worth it! Beware of Recherche Goldens!


----------



## ragtym

I believe that this thread may have inspired a Tweet - "Avoid Golden Retriever breeders who become defensive or avoid questions if asked about their breeding program" :yes:


----------



## Pointgold

ragtym said:


> I believe that this thread may have inspired a Tweet - "Avoid Golden Retriever breeders who become defensive or avoid questions if asked about their breeding program" :yes:


And who visited tonight without replying.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Shoot, I've been teaching a pretty darn successful Puppy Kindergarten for 25 years, and charge a fraction of that, a portion of which I donate to the local Humane Society. I wouldn't pay ME as much as he's charging!


Isn't that still making money off the backs of dogs?


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Now, I'm not sure how it is that we know that Kati will be having puppies when she is 2 years and 1 week old, but it means that she was bred before she was two...


Hey Laura, I would have written this in a PM, but you seem to have turned them off or maybe just blocked me, but isn't one of your dogs from a litter where the stud was under 2?

I thought pro breeders sometimes bent or broke rules like that.


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> Isn't that still making money off the backs of dogs?


Wow. Pissed off this am about the H$U$ thread?


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> Hey Laura, I would have written this in a PM, but you seem to have turned them off or maybe just blocked me, but isn't one of your dogs from a litter where the stud was under 2?
> 
> I thought pro breeders sometimes bent or broke rules like that.


Yes, my Best in Specialty winning champion bitch is by the great Mulder. He was not quite 2 when Sylvia used him. I don't consider myself to be a "pro breeder". I am fortunate to have a fine mentor who to this day I respect and rely on to help me with decisions that I make. 
Trying to play gotcha now, or what? I've absolutely NEVER hidden anything that I've done, tippykayak, and being angry about another thread certainly doesn't warrant trying to undermine what I have done.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Yes, my Best in Specialty winning champion bitch is by the great Mulder. He was not quite 2 when Sylvia used him. I don't consider myself to be a "pro breeder". I am fortunate to have a fine mentor who to this day I respect and rely on to help me with decisions that I make.
> Trying to play gotcha now, or what? I've absolutely NEVER hidden anything that I've done, tippykayak, and being angry about another thread certainly doesn't warrant trying to undermine what I have done.


I'm not angry at you, but I thought, if you were going to call this breeder on his behavior, that it was a fair question. If we're going to tell this guy that breeding between 18 months and 2 years is wrong, the rationale should be crystal clear.

Sometimes pro breeders do it, and he should be absolutely clear that _as a general practice_ it's not a good idea, but that exceptions are made.

Don't read a vendetta into it.


----------



## AmbikaGR

tippykayak said:


> I'm not angry at you, but I thought, if you were going to call this breeder on his behavior, that it was a fair question. If we're going to tell this guy that breeding between 18 months and 2 years is wrong, the rationale should be crystal clear.
> 
> Sometimes pro breeders do it, and he should be absolutely clear that _as a general practice_ it's not a good idea, but that exceptions are made.
> 
> Don't read a vendetta into it.



So you are equating the breeder we were discussing here with a breeder such as Birnam Wood's??? 
I have to say that from where I am sitting I am confused.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Yes, my Best in Specialty winning champion bitch is by the great Mulder. He was not quite 2 when Sylvia used him.


More like 18 months than "not quite 2," right? At least according to k9data.


----------



## tippykayak

AmbikaGR said:


> So you are equating the breeder we were discussing here with a breeder such as Birnam Wood's???
> I have to say that from where I am sitting I am confused.


Sorry, no. I clarified in a second post. I think the rationale needs to be very, very clear for people like RGoldens. He needs to understand why somebody like Birnam might breed a promising 18-month stud but that as a general practice, it's not a good idea. I thought Laura might be in a position to explain.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Wow. Pissed off this am about the H$U$ thread?


Not at all. I don't get angry about stuff that happens on internet forums.  But I thought it was a strange comment for somebody whose job is to train dogs to say that it was unethical to make money off of dogs. What's the distinction you're making?


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> Not at all. I don't get angry about stuff that happens on internet forums.  But I thought it was a strange comment for somebody whose job is to train dogs to say that it was unethical to make money off of dogs. What's the distinction you're making?


BS.
You know _exactly _what I mean by "making money off the backs of dogs", perhaps I should have/should have said "off the reproductive organs of dogs".


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> I'm not angry at you, but I thought, if you were going to call this breeder on his behavior, that it was a fair question. If we're going to tell this guy that breeding between 18 months and 2 years is wrong, the rationale should be crystal clear.
> 
> Sometimes pro breeders do it, and he should be absolutely clear that _as a general practice_ it's not a good idea, but that exceptions are made.
> 
> Don't read a vendetta into it.


 
BS again. Otherwise, why would you have said that you "tried to ask it privately" when you have my email address? And when all of these points have been made here on this forum, more than once. 
I have nothing to hide.


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> More like 18 months than "not quite 2," right? At least according to k9data.


And with all prelims, and full clearances on a champion bitch. Can you, HAVE you, done better?


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> BS again. Otherwise, why would you have said that you "tried to ask it privately" when you have my email address? And when all of these points have been made here on this forum, more than once.
> I have nothing to hide.


You have asked me not to use that, so I don't. Also, if you're going to block me on PMs, you can't expect me to think using your private e-mail is appropriate. You asked me not to contact you privately, so I don't.

Can you stop making this personal? I know it seems that way, but I couldn't care less about making your life harder.

I just know that it's patently obvious to anybody that looks into it that your champion dog was bred off a stud who was 18 months at the time. There is a big difference between what Birnam did in that instance and what Recherche has done with every litter. I thought you might be in a position to express that difference more clearly than I.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> And with all prelims, and full clearances on a champion bitch. Can you, HAVE you, done better?


What do you mean? Have I produced a dog as fine as Zoom? I don't breed, so of course not, and if I did, I would dream of having dogs as fine as Zoom or as distinguished as any at Birnam or Nitelite. That's why I thought you might be in a far better position to explain the distinction than I am.

Really, Laura, it's not personal. You're someone I only know through an internet forum. I just don't get that worked up about it.


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> You have asked me not to use that, so I don't. Also, if you're going to block me on PMs, you can't expect me to think using your private e-mail is appropriate. You asked me not to contact you privately, so I don't.
> 
> Can you stop making this personal? I know it seems that way, but I couldn't care less about making your life harder.
> 
> I just know that it's patently obvious to anybody that looks into it that your champion dog was bred off a stud who was 18 months at the time. There is a big difference between what Birnam did in that instance and what Recherche has done with every litter. I thought you might be in a position to express that difference more clearly than I.


 
Right.... not buying it. "I call shenanigans". We all know how eloquent and polite you can be, and if this were your intention, you would not have worded the "question" as you did. You made it very personal.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> BS.
> You know _exactly _what I mean by "making money off the backs of dogs", perhaps I should have/should have said "off the reproductive organs of dogs".


Well again, no. The discussion was about those dramatically expensive puppies that were kept longer and trained. I just don't think there's anything wrong with making money off of dogs or charging what the market will bear, _when you do everything else ethically_. Certainly, puppies who have a good chance of being champions are sold for a lot more than dogs whose parents are cleared but undistinguished. What's wrong with that price difference, and what's wrong with charging for training?


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Right.... not buying it. "I call shenanigans". We all know how eloquent and polite you can be, and if this were your intention, you would not have worded the "question" as you did. You made it very personal.


Then I apologize. Can we drop the personal stuff and just address the issue?


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> Well again, no. The discussion was about those dramatically expensive puppies that were kept longer and trained. I just don't think there's anything wrong with making money off of dogs or charging what the market will bear, _when you do everything else ethically_. Certainly, puppies who have a good chance of being champions are sold for a lot more than dogs whose parents are cleared but undistinguished. What's wrong with that price difference, and what's wrong with charging for training?


And I asked, tippykayak, what credentials a person who has bred one (two?) litters, with obviously less than stellar breeding practices, tons of patently false information on their website, and who has never shown before or earned so much as a simple CGC certificate, can provide to justify such *obscenely high prices* for training? I will not apologize for believing that is not ethical, nor will I apologize for offering a service, _proven successful over the course of nearly 25 years,_ to pet owners at a VERY affordable price, with 20% of every paid tuition being donated to our local Humane Society.

And BTW, I do not charge "a whole lot more" for puppies who have a good chance of being champions. In fact, I've been "chastised" in my state for "undercutting" the prices of other breeders. Which I am not. I charge a price that can be affordable to great families who perhaps do not have truckloads of disposable income and can provide as wonderful (or more so) a home as someone much wealthier.


----------



## sammydog

tippykayak said:


> I just don't think there's anything wrong with making money off of dogs or charging what the market will bear, _when you do everything else ethically_.


I think we already established that he is NOT doing everything else ethically...

One of the Recherche Goldens, "Amalie" has her prelims done at 14 months old. The hips came out FAIR, and at 28 months old she has not been retested.... but she has been bred... that alone says something about the breeding practices...

I think it is pretty disrespectful to compare this so-called breeder, who is out there manipulating people into spending thousands on Crème Goldens, to people who have been involved with and dedicated to improving this bred for years...


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> And I asked, tippykayak, what credentials a person who has bred one (two?) litters, with obviously less than stellar breeding practices, tons of patently false information on their website, and who has never shown before or earned so much as a simple CGC certificate, can provide to justify such *obscenely high prices* for training? I will not apologize for believing that is not ethical, nor will I apologize for offering a service, _proven successful over the course of nearly 25 years,_ to pet owners at a VERY affordable price, with 20% of every paid tuition being donated to our local Humane Society.
> 
> And BTW, I do not charge "a whole lot more" for puppies who have a good chance of being champions. In fact, I've been "chastised" in my state for "undercutting" the prices of other breeders. Which I am not. I charge a price that can be affordable to great families who perhaps do not have turckloads of disposable income who can provide as wonderful a home (or better) than someone who may be wealthier.


I think what you do is noble and is far better than purely profiting. I guess if it's just an ethical debate, the position you're taking is totally defensible.

But in a free market, people don't have to justify their prices. I'm welcome to pay three times as much for a banana than I have to if I don't bother to do my homework on which stores have fair prices.

Sorry - I wasn't saying you did it, simply that it seems to be a common practice in the show community.

And you're right, all the great breeders I know and the ones I've patronized have been more concerned with the quality of the home the dog is getting than with the price. That's what makes them a better breeder.

I just don't think high prices are what makes Recherche a bad breeder, and I think it distracts from the issues. We should be focusing on the lies that justify the high prices.


----------



## timberwolf

sammydog said:


> I think it is pretty disrespectful to compare this so-called breeder, who is out there manipulating people into spending thousands on Crème Goldens, to people who have been involved with and dedicated to improving this bred for years...


Well said!!! I couldn't agree more!!!


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> I think what you do is noble and is far better than purely profiting. I guess if it's just an ethical debate, the position you're taking is totally defensible.
> 
> But in a free market, people don't have to justify their prices. I'm welcome to pay three times as much for a banana than I have to if I don't bother to do my homework on which stores have fair prices.
> 
> Sorry - I wasn't saying you did it, simply that it seems to be a common practice in the show community.
> 
> And you're right, all the great breeders I know and the ones I've patronized have been more concerned with the quality of the home the dog is getting than with the price. That's what makes them a better breeder.
> 
> I just don't think high prices are what makes Recherche a bad breeder, and I think it distracts from the issues. We should be focusing on the lies that justify the high prices.


 
Your position baffles me, given your past postings regarding the free market in PD threads. 

I HAVE been focusing on the lies justifying the high prices. :doh:


----------



## Pointgold

*Two very good reads*

I'm sorry, this was meant to go in another thread. I've reposted it.


----------



## Loisiana

I actually am interested in the reasonings behind breeding a stud before 2 years. I have no breeding experience, so I don't know. I've read some of the reasonings for bitches....limited ages appropriate for breeding coupled with the limited times bitch is in season. But neither of those apply to males. So is it just a very experienced breeder being able to predict how a dog will end up at his mature age, or is there more reasoning to it? It seems like stud dogs are able to have such long careers there wouldn't be the need to breed them early, but there is probably something to the equation that I am missing.


----------



## tippykayak

sammydog said:


> I think it is pretty disrespectful to compare this so-called breeder, who is out there manipulating people into spending thousands on Crème Goldens, to people who have been involved with and dedicated to improving this bred for years...


It's not an issue of respect. I have an immense amount of respect for the work PG does with dogs. It's an issue of an apparent double standard that people like RGoldens exploit, and I think it needs to be crystal clear why it's OK that a respected breeder has done it on a selective basis and not OK that Recherche does it as a standard practice.

Perhaps it was confrontational to talk about Laura's dog directly, but since she made such a big deal of the breeding ages of the dog, I thought she should clarify.


----------



## tippykayak

Loisiana said:


> I actually am interested in the reasonings behind breeding a stud before 2 years. I have no breeding experience, so I don't know. I've read some of the reasonings for bitches....limited ages appropriate for breeding coupled with the limited times bitch is in season. But neither of those apply to males. So is it just a very experienced breeder being able to predict how a dog will end up at his mature age, or is there more reasoning to it? It seems like stud dogs are able to have such long careers there wouldn't be the need to breed them early, but there is probably something to the equation that I am missing.


Hopefully we'll get a good answer now that it's not me that's asking the question.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Your position baffles me, given your past postings regarding the free market in PD threads.
> 
> I HAVE been focusing on the lies justifying the high prices. :doh:


No, you've been focusing on the price itself, and I think it's a distraction.

And our friendly overlords have decided that we're not allowed to discuss politics, but rest assured that there's nothing inconsistent about my opinions on the free market.


----------



## Pointgold

Loisiana said:


> I actually am interested in the reasonings behind breeding a stud before 2 years. I have no breeding experience, so I don't know. I've read some of the reasonings for bitches....limited ages appropriate for breeding coupled with the limited times bitch is in season. But neither of those apply to males. So is it just a very experienced breeder being able to predict how a dog will end up at his mature age, or is there more reasoning to it? It seems like stud dogs are able to have such long careers there wouldn't be the need to breed them early, but there is probably something to the equation that I am missing.


Most often, a stud dog under the age of two WITH ALL PRELIMS and a solid ancestral history of all clearances will be used if a breeder is planning a last breeding on a bitch and that is the dog/pedigree s/he needs.


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> No, you've been focusing on the price itself, and I think it's a distraction.
> 
> And our friendly overlords have decided that we're not allowed to discuss politics, but rest assured that there's nothing inconsistent about my opinions on the free market.


Wrong again. I HAVE focused on how this person JUSTIFIES it, which speaks directly to their entire operation.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Most often, a stud dog under the age of two WITH ALL PRELIMS and a solid ancestral history of all clearances will be used if a breeder is planning a last breeding on a bitch and that is the dog/pedigree s/he needs.


So there are specific exceptions to the 2-year rule that are occasionally made by very experienced breeders when all other factors are taken into account.

That's the point I think it's important to make. It's not a rule that applies to breeders we don't like and is ignored for breeders we do like (as has been the accusation by angry breeders before on this forum), but rather an important rule for all breeders to follow.

You were called a hypocrite earlier in this thread. I wanted the poster to be fully clear that the two situations were very, very different.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Wrong again. I HAVE focused on how this person JUSTIFIES it, which speaks directly to their entire operation.


OK. Sorry.


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> It's not an issue of respect. I have an immense amount of respect for the work PG does with dogs. It's an issue of an apparent double standard that people like RGoldens exploit, and I think it needs to be crystal clear why it's OK that a respected breeder has done it on a selective basis and not OK that Recherche does it as a standard practice.
> 
> Perhaps it was confrontational to talk about Laura's dog directly, but since she made such a big deal of the breeding ages of the dog, I thought she should clarify.


\

I've not made the focus of this discussion about the ages, not at all. I made clarifications to what the "breeder" was stating about the ages of his dogs at the time of breeding/whelping. 
I've been far more concerned with the quality (or lack thereof) of his dogs, lack of clearances, his "misinformation" posted on his site, the inconsistencies in what he has posted here vs what is posted on his site as well as the numerous Puppy4$ale sites he advertises on.
And when an experienced and highly respected breeder makes a decision to breed to ANY dog, let alone one who is under two, it is not made lightly.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> \
> 
> I've not made the focus of this dicussion about the ages, not at all. I made clarifications to what the "breeder" was stating about the ages of his dogs at the time of breeding/whelping.
> I've been far more concerned with the quality (or lack thereof) of his dogs, lack of clearances, his "misinformation" posted on his site, the inconsistencies in what he has posted here vs what is posted on his site as well as the numerous Puppy4$ale sites he advertises on.
> And when an experienced and highly respected breeder makes a decision to breed to ANY dog, let alone one who is under two, it is not made lightly.


I agree with you about the priorities here. The lies are the biggest thing, and the sale of dogs through broker sites is another huge problem.

But you did make an issue of the ages a number of times. I'm not coming out of nowhere.



Pointgold said:


> I see that they have added that prior to breeding, the dogs will have been tested for eyes and heart. Still will be too young to clear, and underage for breeding.


----------



## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> I agree with you about the priorities here. The lies are the biggest thing, and the sale of dogs through broker sites is another huge problem.
> 
> But you did make an issue of the ages a number of times. I'm not coming out of nowhere.


Whatever, tippykayak. Your post would have one believe that it was the only thing I focused on. It most assuredly is not.

It's beyond amusing to be attacked by the likes of Mr. Pastor Hamka without having to deal with your niggling, as well. 

Above and beyond ANYthing else, I am about THE DOGS.


----------



## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Whatever, tippykayak. Your post would have one believe that it was the only thing I focused on. It most assuredly is not.
> 
> It's beyond amusing to be attacked by the likes of Mr. Pastor Hamka without having to deal with your niggling, as well.
> 
> Avove and beyond ANYthing else, I am about THE DOGS.


One would only have to read the rest of the thread to know exactly what you talked about. It was one issue that I thought needed to be discussed further, particularly given RGoldens' accusation of hypocrisy.

Sorry to have niggled.


----------



## Ljilly28

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=323387313780&ref=nf


----------



## wendy.ws

Laura (PG, am I right? if I've got your name wrong I'm sorry)...

I just found/joined this forum tonight. We lost our 11 year old golden last week to cancer and in a heartbroken moment I was ready to contact RGoldens and put a deposit on a puppy for a litter due in early August. I am so thankful that this thread popped in a google search. Shame on RGoldens for the claims about cancer, I was particularly gullible and taken in by that false claim. I couldn't understand the $3000 pricetag and am a non-breeder, non-shower who just wants a beautiful, healthy, sweet golden to love. Since RGoldens is the only breeder local to me with a webpage I don't know where else to turn. I am searching for a GR club in Southwest Virginia but can only find the Potomac Valley club (5 hour drive to DC, not local for me). In reading the 19 pages of this post, you seem to be the voice of sanity. Could you please help point me in the right direction?


----------



## Ljilly28

wendy.ws said:


> Laura (PG, am I right? if I've got your name wrong I'm sorry)...
> 
> Could you please help point me in the right direction?


There is a litter I am swooning over( Chaos ex Duckie) in Virginia- the pups have baby agility equipment and "educational" toys w/lots of photos/videos - such a nice breeding. If I didnt have a full house, I would be begging for one of these gorgeous pups!
Leeah Chew, DVM
Blacksburg, VA USA 24060
[email protected]
www.MyBuddyGoldens.com

Sunkota
Cathy Story
Fairfax Station, VA USA 22039
[email protected]
www.sunkota.com/sunkota_goldens.htm


http://www.eldoradogoldens.com/


Terans Kennels
Terry Neider
Spotsylvania, VA USA 22553
[email protected]
www.terans.com
(540) 786-6666


In MD
http://www.delmarvagoldens.com/


----------



## AmbikaGR

wendy.ws said:


> Laura (PG, am I right? if I've got your name wrong I'm sorry)...
> 
> I just found/joined this forum tonight. We lost our 11 year old golden last week to cancer and in a heartbroken moment I was ready to contact RGoldens and put a deposit on a puppy for a litter due in early August. I am so thankful that this thread popped in a google search. Shame on RGoldens for the claims about cancer, I was particularly gullible and taken in by that false claim. I couldn't understand the $3000 pricetag and am a non-breeder, non-shower who just wants a beautiful, healthy, sweet golden to love. Since RGoldens is the only breeder local to me with a webpage I don't know where else to turn. I am searching for a GR club in Southwest Virginia but can only find the Potomac Valley club (5 hour drive to DC, not local for me). In reading the 19 pages of this post, you seem to be the voice of sanity. Could you please help point me in the right direction?



Depending how far Southwest you are there are breeders from PVGRC that are closer than 5 hours and there is also Tarheel GRC in North Carolina

Here are the links to their webpages

Tarheel - http://www.tarheelgrc.org/index.asp?ID=92

Potomac - http://www.pvgrc.org/poop/poop.htm


----------



## Pointgold

wendy.ws said:


> Laura (PG, am I right? if I've got your name wrong I'm sorry)...
> 
> I just found/joined this forum tonight. We lost our 11 year old golden last week to cancer and in a heartbroken moment I was ready to contact RGoldens and put a deposit on a puppy for a litter due in early August. I am so thankful that this thread popped in a google search. Shame on RGoldens for the claims about cancer, I was particularly gullible and taken in by that false claim. I couldn't understand the $3000 pricetag and am a non-breeder, non-shower who just wants a beautiful, healthy, sweet golden to love. Since RGoldens is the only breeder local to me with a webpage I don't know where else to turn. I am searching for a GR club in Southwest Virginia but can only find the Potomac Valley club (5 hour drive to DC, not local for me). In reading the 19 pages of this post, you seem to be the voice of sanity. Could you please help point me in the right direction?


 
I was just directed to this post - I am at a dog show and just got done for day and am trying to cool off in the hotel room!

Wendy, I am sorry for your loss. I would also direct you, as did Ambika, to the PVGRC and Tarheel. I will also contact you when I get home and give you a couple of names that I just don't have with me right now.


----------



## MillysMom

Ljilly28 said:


> There is a litter I am swooning over( Chaos ex Duckie) in Virginia- the pups have baby agility equipment and "educational" toys w/lots of photos/videos - such a nice breeding. If I didnt have a full house, I would be begging for one of these gorgeous pups!
> Leeah Chew, DVM
> Blacksburg, VA USA 24060
> [email protected]
> www.MyBuddyGoldens.com
> 
> Sunkota
> Cathy Story
> Fairfax Station, VA USA 22039
> [email protected]
> www.sunkota.com/sunkota_goldens.htm
> 
> 
> http://www.eldoradogoldens.com/
> 
> 
> Terans Kennels
> Terry Neider
> Spotsylvania, VA USA 22553
> [email protected]
> www.terans.com
> (540) 786-6666
> 
> 
> In MD
> http://www.delmarvagoldens.com/


Wendy, I PM'd you, but don't know if new members can recieve PM's, I know they can't send them until 15 posts. 

I would recommend My Buddy Goldens if you are near Roanoke. They are in Blacksburg, and I had the privlege of meeting one of their goldens yesterday. It was just a beautiful representation of the breed, and had a stellar temprement. I've heard nothing but great things about their breeding program, and they are an ethical breeder. The other breeders I suggested in my PM were Delmarva (a member here) and if you really want a European type golden then Tanglewood (just outside of Charlotte, NC).

A reputable breeder will be healthy to discuss longevity seen in the pedigree, and health of all of your future pup's ancestors and relatives. You'll also find a reputable breeder will charge between $900-$1,800 for puppies. Most are closer to the $1,000-$1,500 range.

Good luck in your search. You're lucky to have found this forum, as there are some incredibly knowlegable breeders who can help you.

For people interested in the European type goldens a lot of people tell them to check out the European Golden website (I forget what it's called), but I know for a fact that some of the breeders on there are not very ethical, and one in particular who seems to be very ethical and about bettering the breed, has allowed her stud dog to be used in litters produced by Y-Rock Ranch (an unethical breeder), and by other breeders who sell on unlimited registration for a higher price. Just be careful of that website.


----------



## wendy.ws

Thank you all so much!

PG - Hope the show went well and your air-conditioner has kicked in! Thanks in advance for any other info you may be able to dig up when you have time. 

Millie's Mom and LJilly - Thanks so much for the leads and links. I am excited after trading emails with Leeah at My Buddy Goldens. From what little I can tell by pics and descriptions I've found online I am excited to go see the pups from the Chaos x Duckie litter next weekend (and trying very hard not to fall in love with them based on puppy pictures alone). 

All advice is welcome, I'm a newbie and appreciate any and all help!!! We were lucky with our first golden from a backyard breeder but I'm ready to get more involved with the breed. Not sure if I'll ever have the commitment to breed or show dogs myself, but I want to learn more and train my next baby (and myself) in obedience and agility to see if I have the passion you guys have.


----------



## Ljilly28

Wendy, I am torn between smiles and jealousy, lol! I love Duckie's pedigree and I love Chaos.


----------



## PC Mom

Wendy,
I have a Blue/Mazda pup from Leeah at My Buddy Goldens and he is AMAZING. Seriously, the easiest dog I've ever trained, and we've had a lot of Goldens come through our house with rescues. He's a doll who wants nothing more than to love on you. Leeah is wonderful to deal with. Good luck meeting with them. 

I know how it is to lose a dog to cancer. We lost McGwire to osteosarcoma. We knew we wanted to get a puppy hopefully before he died, but it didn't work that way. We got Duke just 2 weeks after McGwire died. It was one of the best / worst times in my life. Duke truly was a great way to mend a broken heart, but I'm glad we had time to mourn McGwire too. It's bittersweet now to see some of McGwire's quirks coming out in Duke. Still miss him like crazy, but Duke is absolutely delightful. Good luck again with your decision!


----------



## GabeBabe

Hi Golden Lovers,

I came upon this forum accidentally last night... Between cheesecake and golden retriever google searches. Those who own Golden Retrievers know that they are the BEST dogs in the world. 

I've had four goldens in my life - well, permanent ones. I've also done fostering and work with rescue so I've know many goldens.

I am the PROUD and loving mommy to a precious, friendly, and extremely lovable 9 month old puppy. As soon as I figure out how to load a photo you will also see how majestic and beautiful he is. 

I wanted to add my thoughts to the end of this trail of postings because I feel the need to tarry on some unfair accusations. Though these are my opinions, they are based on fact in relation to my personal experience.

This post may never been seen tucked back on page 20 - however, I'll have said my words and at least feel better.

My puppies registered name is Rocherche's Heaven Sent Gabriel. He is from the parents of Amalie and Max (unregistered names). He was born Christmas Day almost a year after we lost my beloved Gus. Gabe the Babe has been the light of our life. I stand to tell you that we had absolutely positively no trouble with this breeder.

They do not even know I am posting this, nor did I know his integrity had been tested since 2007. 2007? really people!

I did my homework too, and feel totally and completely at ease with my decision and would not hesitate to purchase another puppy from this breeder. 

Some points to address related to the ones I happened upon - because I'm not going to go back and read them all....I've a cheesecake to bake and a puppy to feel lunch.

I found the parents of my puppy to be of GREAT lineage. Moondust kennels is awesome. and MAX is an AMAZING dog. I first met them on a visit to decide if I wanted a puppy from this home. It is a home. I came away knowing this was the right choice. Max, Katie and Amalie are GREAT dogs. Beautiful, trained, friendly, calm, smart. I would take any one of them in a nano-second. But Max - oh my. What a special dog he is. Plus, I love the fact that he is first generation to the Moondust Masterpiece and Blue Star Music of Glen Seallag. To me, the closer the better.

Amalie - is from Koriander v.d. Beersse Hoeve (the famous Xanthos Apple Jack) and Extra Magic is Friendly. Between the two parent sets that is 37 championships in the blood line. However, since I am not going to show my dog it is moot in that regard.

To me that's not as important as personality, friendliness, health and disposition. After meeting these dogs, the championships were the frosting on the cake.

Creme - Cream - who cares what it's called. My last golden was dark red gold - so the light color like creme brulee just adds variety. I've come to love the light color, and he's so handsome in his coat color. 

EVERYONE my puppy meets comments on how handsome he is, calm for a puppy and smart. SMART he is. 

The pups were given the Volhard Puppy Aptitude test and I chose a puppy with 3/4's as I plan on doing therapy with him. He loves people and other dogs and should make a wonderful therapy dog.

The NuVet is a product I had not heard of, however, I had given my Gus and all fosters either Solid Gold Seameal, or Missing Link. The NuVet product - after researching it - I found to be a supplement I could approve of and my dog and daughter's dog (a maltese) love it. The breeder suggests you use it, and extends the warrantee a third year to do so. I would use a supplement anyway - so this was a no brainer. Plus, any website that sells a product makes money on it. 

Food is another issue I am VERY particular about. When I told this breeder that I would change the puppy food when I got mine home - he was very concerned as to why. After MUCH research - they switched to Honest Kitchen. Anyone that wants the value of a raw diet without the work needs to check this dog food out.

I NEVER had communication issues. Emails and calls were always addressed and followed up on. In fact - through facebook and emails - we communicate with the sibling families of Gabe's litter mates - sharing photos and similarities of the dogs as they grow.

I visited the home again when the pups were 6 weeks old and again for pick up. They spend much time with me and I felt comfortable with the warm, clean and safe home environment the dogs were in.

His mother raised Eskies and they also raise Eskies - which is where the history of breeding comes from.

I have no trouble referring anyone to this family and their dogs. To me the words in their title are based on the multi linguistics of his wife and I couldn't even tell you the root of the word rocherche. But for me....now it makes much more sense because my dog was...
1. Sought out with care 
2. Choice
3. Refined and elegant
So to me, those descriptions are exactly what it's about.

Golden Love,
Mommy of Gabe the Babe


----------



## tippykayak

GabeBabe said:


> I did my homework too, and feel totally and completely at ease with my decision and would not hesitate to purchase another puppy from this breeder.


But what about all the lies on the website, the audacious (and false!) claims, and the clear violations of the GRCA code of ethics, particularly as it relates to breeding ages and clearances?

I outlined these issues in  this post:.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Welcome to the forum GabeBabe! :wavey:

I am very happy your experience with this breeder was/is a pleasant one. However that does not change the fact this breeder is not breeding responsibly according to the procedures recognized by those who promote responsible breeding. :no:

Wishing years and years of joy and health with your pup!


----------



## Pointgold

Well, good for you. And for anyone else who buys into slick marketing, and in this case, TOTAL LIES. PROVABLE as being total lies. And herein lies my love/hate relationship with the internet. It has the capacity to do so much good, and SO much bad...:no:
I hope that your puppy remains healthy.


BTW - I have temperament/aptitude tested litterally dozens of Golden litters using the Volhard Test - as well as many other breeds - were the scores interpreted by the Volhards' method?


----------



## Pointgold

LOL

NuVet =








and is


----------



## GabeBabe

*supplements*

Hi,

Okay, I get it that you are mostly not in love with NuVet. However, why do you feel that the list of ingredients they use is not nutritious? What supplements do you give to your dogs?

Additionally, my pup gets a digestive enzyme/probiotic supplement, and an omega supplement in the form of (alternately) - Salmon oil, or coconut oil, or first press cold press olive oil, or sardine in olive oil

He also gets plain yogurt - usually my homemade. Raw honey, sometimes blackstrap molasses.

He occasionally gets a soft cooked 3 minute egg.

I'm still watching his protein and calcium intake due to his age and I don't want him growing too fast to prevent hip/joint issues in the future.

I agree that blueberries are awesome and good for a pet, along with other berries, pumpkin, banana, etc. 

However, it is important to note, that a fair number of people give up their dogs due to health issues, behavior issues and nutrition plays a large part in the growth and abilities of a dog. In the day to day existence of most pet owners they buy whatever is cheapest and quickest at walmart or their grocery store. The ingredients in commercial dog foods is awful, and although I haven't been on other lines in this website - I am sure there are many discussions on food, and food related problems. 

Having worked with rescue dogs, the first thing they get when they come into the program (golden retriever rescue) is a once over by the vet, their shots updated, usually a heartworm treatment, a clean up and grooming - then we change their dog food. After they've been in the program for a few months they don't even look like the same dog. 

In many situations dog food is not enough, and as with us humanoids - we also need supplements to boost, and sustain our immune systems. Food is not the food of years ago, and unless you are doing organic and staying away from sugar, soda, white foods, dairy, inferior soy and gluten (now all those people will get mad too) you are only biding your time with your own immune system.

So what do you use?

PS my cheesecake turned out great!


----------



## AmbikaGR

100%raw fed (Billinghurst BARF) for over a dozen years. 

Guess food CAN be the food of years ago.


----------



## Pointgold

GabeBabe said:


> Hi,
> 
> Okay, I get it that you are mostly not in love with NuVet. However, why do you feel that the list of ingredients they use is not nutritious? What supplements do you give to your dogs?
> 
> Additionally, my pup gets a digestive enzyme/probiotic supplement, and an omega supplement in the form of (alternately) - Salmon oil, or coconut oil, or first press cold press olive oil, or sardine in olive oil
> 
> He also gets plain yogurt - usually my homemade. Raw honey, sometimes blackstrap molasses.
> 
> He occasionally gets a soft cooked 3 minute egg.
> 
> I'm still watching his protein and calcium intake due to his age and I don't want him growing too fast to prevent hip/joint issues in the future.
> 
> I agree that blueberries are awesome and good for a pet, along with other berries, pumpkin, banana, etc.
> 
> However, it is important to note, that a fair number of people give up their dogs due to health issues, behavior issues and nutrition plays a large part in the growth and abilities of a dog. In the day to day existence of most pet owners they buy whatever is cheapest and quickest at walmart or their grocery store. The ingredients in commercial dog foods is awful, and although I haven't been on other lines in this website - I am sure there are many discussions on food, and food related problems.
> 
> Having worked with rescue dogs, the first thing they get when they come into the program (golden retriever rescue) is a once over by the vet, their shots updated, usually a heartworm treatment, a clean up and grooming - then we change their dog food. After they've been in the program for a few months they don't even look like the same dog.
> 
> In many situations dog food is not enough, and as with us humanoids - we also need supplements to boost, and sustain our immune systems. Food is not the food of years ago, and unless you are doing organic and staying away from sugar, soda, white foods, dairy, inferior soy and gluten (now all those people will get mad too) you are only biding your time with your own immune system.
> 
> So what do you use?
> 
> PS my cheesecake turned out great!


 
I take issue with any product that claims to cure/prevent cancer and every other ailment that a dog could possibly get, and I also take GREAT issue with pyramid schemes such as NuVets. "Breeders" (mostly high volume breeders read that millers) attach using that crap to their health "guarantee" and if you don't use it the guarantee is null and void. Note that they all use the same verbage that NuVet provides for them. THAT is BS. If you are feeding a quality food, you should not have to supplement. I do use a probiotic, it helps my dogs get the very most out of their food. Listen, I've been doing this a far sight longer than Rechereche or whatever they call themselves, with a modicum of success in several venues, and a very healthy history of long-lived dogs, good hips and elbow records, And 2 dogs in 30 some years that I know had cancer. I also am very aware of the history of the breed, and who is breeding top quality dogs, with titles and other means of determining them as being such. And Recherche aint it.
As for feeding, grooming, etc etc, your schpiel is wasted on me, really.


----------



## GabeBabe

> If you are feeding a quality food, you should not have to supplement.


Hello again,

Hope I did this right. I guess what I am trying to say is that most people (probably not the people in this forum - as they are dedicated Golden owners)...

But, most people generally DO NOT feed a quality dog food. Just last night at Pet's Mart (picking up doggy potty bags and a great new toy)....the cart in front of me had a 30# bag of Science Diet Puppy food and the cart behind me had a 30# bag of Pedigree. (At least Pedigree donates money to dog causes).

Even some quality kibble dog food has been heated at a high enough temperature in the kibble process to 'burn off' the enzymes, and antioxidents to proove them ineffective.

Good products are always changing as the market demand changes and unless you keep up with reviews and product lines they may not always remain the best for your dog even if you've provided that food for years. With the exception of raw which is always fresh, but even so that too changes as the dog changes.

Food needs to be varied according to the needs and issues per dog wether it be puppy, adult, high energy agility, senior, medical issues etc. 

Supplementing a dog food is a good thing just as supplementing our own diet is. 

Even most vets sell Science Diet or Hills. So people assume it is a good dog food. I remember commenting to my dog's surgeon after he suggested a diet dog food by Hills that was made out of PEANUT HULLS. He said....I am trained to fix them not to feed them. 

Anyhoo, that's my ramblings. It's a beautiful fall day here in SC and Gabe is ready for a nice long walk.....have a good one.


----------



## Megora

> If you are feeding a quality food, you should not have to supplement.


But according to my vet, the values and levels of extras in your dog's food (glucosamine, etc) are not high enough to do anything. And the numbers on the back of the dog food bag are based on you feeding their suggested servings (4+ cups of food, etc). So if you are feeding less than recommended, then the meager amount of glucosamine (250 mg per my guy's food as opposed to the 1200 mg which he needs) would be even a lot less. 

That's why it's suggested you add all of the things that Gabebabe says she gives to her dogs.... in case you have a dog who has a known or possible issue. It doesn't hurt, and it doesn't automatically mean that you are feeding your dog a bad diet if it does not provide that little extra supplement which your dog requires. 

Blueberries and cranberries are absolutely the best fruits to add to your dog's kibble or as a treat. My dogfood already has both in it, but again I don't expect the amounts are as high as my dog needs. 

All that said, I'm not exactly convinced that putting your puppy on a NuVet thingy from day one and only feeding raw food would prevent that puppy (WHO MAY ALREADY HAVE BAD JOINTS, as my vet believes this is something dogs are BORN with) from developing issues as he gets bigger and puts more weight on those bad joints. 

If you give your dog supplements and take all of the usual precautions, it will do one thing - it will give your dog a more comfortable life than it would otherwise have if you let him get fat and never gave him any supplements to support healthy bones and cartilage.

And for what it's worth, my vet believes that the number of hip dysplasia cases would be a LOT higher if every golden owner took their dog in for xrays. Some dogs do not have any difficulties until old age, at which point the vets don't know whether it was natural age related arthritis or hip dysplasia finally catching up to the dog.


----------



## Swampcollie

Megora said:


> All that said, I'm not exactly convinced that putting your puppy on a NuVet thingy from day one and only feeding raw food would prevent that puppy (WHO MAY ALREADY HAVE BAD JOINTS, as my vet believes this is something dogs are BORN with) from developing issues as he gets bigger and puts more weight on those bad joints.


 
Now you've hit the real reason for much of the stuff you read about. If a breeder tells you that you must feed feed "brand X" of food or only feed "RAW" or must use certain "supplements", they probably are not producing normal healthy dogs. Run from these folks as fast as you can and for god sakes don't buy a puppy from them.


----------



## Pointgold

Megora said:


> But according to my vet, the values and levels of extras in your dog's food (glucosamine, etc) are not high enough to do anything. And the numbers on the back of the dog food bag are based on you feeding their suggested servings (4+ cups of food, etc). So if you are feeding less than recommended, then the meager amount of glucosamine (250 mg per my guy's food as opposed to the 1200 mg which he needs) would be even a lot less.
> 
> That's why it's suggested you add all of the things that Gabebabe says she gives to her dogs.... in case you have a dog who has a known or possible issue. It doesn't hurt, and it doesn't automatically mean that you are feeding your dog a bad diet if it does not provide that little extra supplement which your dog requires.
> 
> Blueberries and cranberries are absolutely the best fruits to add to your dog's kibble or as a treat. My dogfood already has both in it, but again I don't expect the amounts are as high as my dog needs.
> 
> All that said, I'm not exactly convinced that putting your puppy on a NuVet thingy from day one and only feeding raw food would prevent that puppy (WHO MAY ALREADY HAVE BAD JOINTS, as my vet believes this is something dogs are BORN with) from developing issues as he gets bigger and puts more weight on those bad joints.
> 
> If you give your dog supplements and take all of the usual precautions, it will do one thing - it will give your dog a more comfortable life than it would otherwise have if you let him get fat and never gave him any supplements to support healthy bones and cartilage.
> 
> And for what it's worth, my vet believes that the number of hip dysplasia cases would be a LOT higher if every golden owner took their dog in for xrays. Some dogs do not have any difficulties until old age, at which point the vets don't know whether it was natural age related arthritis or hip dysplasia finally catching up to the dog.


 
Does your vet sell Science Diet?


----------



## Pointgold

GabeBabe said:


> Hello again,
> 
> Hope I did this right. I guess what I am trying to say is that most people (probably not the people in this forum - as they are dedicated Golden owners)...
> 
> But, most people generally DO NOT feed a quality dog food. Just last night at Pet's Mart (picking up doggy potty bags and a great new toy)....the cart in front of me had a 30# bag of Science Diet Puppy food and the cart behind me had a 30# bag of Pedigree. (At least Pedigree donates money to dog causes).
> 
> Even some quality kibble dog food has been heated at a high enough temperature in the kibble process to 'burn off' the enzymes, and antioxidents to proove them ineffective.
> 
> Good products are always changing as the market demand changes and unless you keep up with reviews and product lines they may not always remain the best for your dog even if you've provided that food for years. With the exception of raw which is always fresh, but even so that too changes as the dog changes.
> 
> Food needs to be varied according to the needs and issues per dog wether it be puppy, adult, high energy agility, senior, medical issues etc.
> 
> Supplementing a dog food is a good thing just as supplementing our own diet is.
> 
> Even most vets sell Science Diet or Hills. So people assume it is a good dog food. I remember commenting to my dog's surgeon after he suggested a diet dog food by Hills that was made out of PEANUT HULLS. He said....I am trained to fix them not to feed them.
> 
> Anyhoo, that's my ramblings. It's a beautiful fall day here in SC and Gabe is ready for a nice long walk.....have a good one.


I have fed the same product for years, with the exception of a period of time when I was convinced to feed one of the foods in the product lines that tout "wellness" and "holistic" and is rated with as many stars as the Milky Way. It was great - for a while. Then became a disaster. I switched back to Pro Plan, everything corrected, and I'll never do it again.
You spout rhetoric based on how many years of feeding dogs and having Goldens?


----------



## Megora

Pointgold said:


> Does your vet sell Science Diet?


Yep. Our collie is on it. It saved his life probably when we adopted him. He couldn't eat much and was vomiting everything he did eat.


----------



## GabeBabe

First let me take the poison darts out of my back. 

My interest in Golden Retrievers comes from my love of the dog. That interest causes me to be proactive in learning the best possible way to take care of them - my own, or a foster, or another dog in the rescue program. Learning is ever changing ever growing.

Most of the foster dogs come with problems that need to be worked out - either physically or behaviorally. It's usually a trial and error process to find what works. Eliminating current practices and working new ones into the routine; wether that be exercise, food, behavior training, or just good ole love.

Learning as I go helps to me be flexible with different issues and situations as I come upon them. I am no expert, I am not a vet nor a dog nutritionist. I read a lot, and try and keep current on issues and trends in relation to dogs. I would guess we all do. 

I have had dogs all my life with my mom raising schnauzers when we were younger. Having three and then puppies too. After college thru now - always a dog and mostly always a Golden - although there were schnauzers, and labs, and yorkie and a maltese in there too. 

I do not raise in the sense that a breeder does or a show family does. I hope to get into therapy. Meanwhile, I've taken numerous classes of many sorts from first aide to agility to obedience. 

I learn from others, and share what I've experienced. Nutrition I find is an interesting subject and have had a personal need for seeking it for myself also. 

'Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food' Hippocrates.

I guess is it rhetorical to say that I would not use ProPlan - based on the Whole Dog Journal's listing of dog food, and the analysis from www.dogfoodanalysis.com 

Dog Food Reviews - Pro Plan Large Breed Formula - Powered by ReviewPost

However, I'm here to share like everyone else is. Taking what I can use to learn from and depositing what my experiences have been. 

Insanity: *doing the same thing* over and over again and *expecting different results*. Albert Einstein.

Cause in the long haul ....it's for the dogs!


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## Shalva

I am just going to say one thing and then leave this thread.... but I dont personally think it matters how long a person has been in the breed in order to have a valid opinion about a topic. Many newbies have mentors with experience and have done their own research talking to an assortment of people. There are new developments all the time and many of the newbies are privey to that information because they are just learning and realize how much they have to learn, they are actively reading and researching.

I know old timers who have been successful and feel as though they have nothing to learn anymore... whether that comes to training or to food or whatever... they say things like they will never go back.... spiels are wasted upon them... which all implies that they know everything and have nothing more to learn. 

In my opinion there is ALWAYS something more that we can learn... the truly educated NEVER stop learning and then we take that information and make a determination about whether it will work for us. 

I say this as a general statement would I ever use NuVet.... I don't know... never say never.... but to say that information is wasted upon them is certainly concerning.... 

The one last thing I will say about this thread is something that my mother taught me years ago.... 

You get more with sugar than vinegar.... 
S


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## Jo Ellen

Shalva said:


> I am just going to say one thing and then leave this thread.... but I dont personally think it matters how long a person has been in the breed in order to have a valid opinion about a topic. Many newbies have mentors with experience and have done their own research talking to an assortment of various people. There are new developments all the time and many of the newbies are privey to that information because they are just learning and realize how much they have to learn.
> 
> I know old timers who have been successful and feel as though they have nothing to learn anymore... whether that comes to training or to food or whatever... they say things like they will never go back.... spiels are wasted upon them... which all implies that they know everything and have nothing more to learn.
> 
> In my opinion there is ALWAYS something more that we can learn... the truly educated NEVER stop learning and then we take that information and make a determination about whether it will work for us.
> 
> I say this as a general statement would I ever use NuVet.... I don't know... never say never.... but to say that information is wasted upon them is certainly concerning....
> 
> The one last thing I will say about this thread is something that my mother taught me years ago....
> 
> You get more with sugar than vinegar....
> S


Thank you _so much_ for this post! :wavey:


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## Pointgold

Shalva said:


> I am just going to say one thing and then leave this thread.... but I dont personally think it matters how long a person has been in the breed in order to have a valid opinion about a topic. Many newbies have mentors with experience and have done their own research talking to an assortment of people. There are new developments all the time and many of the newbies are privey to that information because they are just learning and realize how much they have to learn, they are actively reading and researching.
> 
> I know old timers who have been successful and feel as though they have nothing to learn anymore... whether that comes to training or to food or whatever... they say things like they will never go back.... spiels are wasted upon them... which all implies that they know everything and have nothing more to learn.
> 
> In my opinion there is ALWAYS something more that we can learn... the truly educated NEVER stop learning and then we take that information and make a determination about whether it will work for us.
> 
> I say this as a general statement would I ever use NuVet.... I don't know... never say never.... but to say that information is wasted upon them is certainly concerning....
> 
> The one last thing I will say about this thread is something that my mother taught me years ago....
> 
> You get more with sugar than vinegar....
> S


 
And I have been doing this for years. over 30. I am always learning. I have learned that the "star ratings' of dog foods and rhetoric spewed by the NuVets of the world are completely biased, and made with little science behind them, let alon long term anecdotal evidence. And "breeders" like Rechereche are posting blatant LIES on their websites, and nice people (I am sure that GabeBabe is very nice) buy into it readily. Facts are facts, and lies, that can be proven as such, are intolerable. What good is a mentor who lies?


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## Pointgold

Megora said:


> Yep. Our collie is on it. It saved his life probably when we adopted him. He couldn't eat much and was vomiting everything he did eat.


 I'm glad it is working for him. I asked because many vets sell Science Diet (they get a kick-back) and really know very little about nutrition. SD is not a food that I would feet, altho their prescription diets can be useful.


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## Megora

Pointgold said:


> I'm glad it is working for him. I asked because many vets sell Science Diet (they get a kick-back) and really know very little about nutrition. *SD is not a food that I would feed*, altho their prescription diets can be useful.


I know. We hated putting our first golden on the K/d diet back then and same thing with Arthur (collie). It gave us 6 more months with the golden and it helped turn things around with the collie. We are weaning him onto the same food as our golden, but I have to be honest and say the science diet prescription kibble saved his life.

About the vets pushing science diet - I'm not sure if my vet does that in a big way? My previous vet was always interested in what we were feeding our guys and I think they passed the word on to other customers - simply because our guys always had good coats and were healthy. The current vet pushes Iams to new puppy owners, but I don't think they are into peddling one dog food over another. Aside from the prescription diets anyway.


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## IowaGold

Pointgold said:


> I'm glad it is working for him. I asked because many vets sell Science Diet (they get a kick-back) and really know very little about nutrition. SD is not a food that I would feet, altho their prescription diets can be useful.


Please tell me what this "kick back" is-I apparently need to talk to our Hills rep! The only thing we get from selling Hills is a (very) small mark-up on the food (like any other business gets from selling anything).


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## tippykayak

IowaGold said:


> Please tell me what this "kick back" is-I apparently need to talk to our Hills rep! The only thing we get from selling Hills is a (very) small mark-up on the food (like any other business gets from selling anything).


LOL, so glad a real vet is here to answer this charge that appears so many times across the forum. Sometimes it sounds like you guys sell Hills so you can make your next boat payment.

I've never had a vet push anything for profit on me. Well, one time she added a toothbrush and toothpaste to my bill without asking me because I had said, "yeah, I should brush his teeth" during the exam. But she kind of had a point on that one.


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## tippykayak

Megora said:


> About the vets pushing science diet - I'm not sure if my vet does that in a big way? My previous vet was always interested in what we were feeding our guys and I think they passed the word on to other customers - simply because our guys always had good coats and were healthy. The current vet pushes Iams to new puppy owners, but I don't think they are into peddling one dog food over another. Aside from the prescription diets anyway.


My vets have never pushed it. We got a few cans of it once when we had some very severe GI issues because of giardia, and it does seem to work as advertised for that.

Beyond that, my vet did ask about what I was feeding, but she just wanted to make sure the dogs were getting LBP formula for the first year. She also wanted to check which food was making the adult dogs so shiny and lean.


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## IowaGold

tippykayak said:


> LOL, so glad a real vet is here to answer this charge that appears to many times across the forum. Sometimes it sounds like you guys sell Hills so you can make your next boat payment.


DH would be forever indebted to Hill's if they allowed him to have a boat (and hopefully a truck big enough to pull it-our current truck has 182,000 miles on).


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## Pointgold

IowaGold said:


> DH would be forever indebted to Hill's if they allowed him to have a boat (and hopefully a truck big enough to pull it-our current truck has 182,000 miles on).


To be fair, things may have changed, but when I worked for a vet the Hills rep offered many "incentives" to sell and recommend SD exclusively, and there was more than a small mark up. Never enough to make a boat payment (I don't think anyone has ever suggested that it was that much!) but it was very clear that no other food would be sold.


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## Jo Ellen

Pointgold said:


> To be fair, things may have changed, but when I worked for a vet the Hills rep offered many "incentives" to sell and recommend SD exclusively, and there was more than a small mark up. Never enough to make a boat payment (I don't think anyone has ever suggested that it was that much!) but it was very clear that no other food would be sold.


Many incentives? Like what? How much of a markup?


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## tippykayak

IowaGold said:


> DH would be forever indebted to Hill's if they allowed him to have a boat (and hopefully a truck big enough to pull it-our current truck has 182,000 miles on).


Is there some kind of exclusivity deal that Hills works out with your office? That's the other accusation I've heard. People say that vets get a deal with Hills not to sell anything else.

I always figured vets sold Hills stuff because Hills makes the prescription foods for special problems (GI trouble, kidney stones, etc.). None of my vets carry a "regular" Science Diet bag, or if they do, they don't have it out where I can see it and have never mentioned it to me.

If there really is an exclusivity deal and a big kickback you can get, I say get out there, hock the food, and buy that truck.


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## IowaGold

We've never been asked to go exclusive as far as I know (and Hill's would lose). We sell way more Royal Canin, but also carry Hill's, Purina, and like one Iams. The only "maintenance" food we carry is iVet.

The only thing I've ever gotten from Hill's is a pen or two.


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## AmbikaGR

I believe years ago exclusive deals were rather common in many businesses with companies. Kind of like "fair trade" pricing was also practiced.
One company involved with pets that was "notorious" for it's "exclusive" deals was Hartz Mountain. They were down right ruthless in the day, think Tony Soprano but worse. I believe "60 Minutes" did an expose on them back in the '80s


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## Abby

I read through this entire thread (very interesting) but I think it's getting way off topic...


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## coppers-mom

it is off topic, but I'm adding my 2cents.

My older GR is prone to pancreatitis. He almost died from it a year ago when I changed his food to one I thought was "better".
He spent a week in the ER/clinic. Upon release, they recommended Science Diet W/D. the ER/clinic does not sell it so had no ulterior motive to sell it. 

My regular vet sells it at about $2 per can for a case. PetSmart sells it for about $1.98 per can.

I doubt they could afford fish bait much less a boat.


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## DeepDish

I can't find the map, can you help me out?


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## DeepDish

I am, in fact, the greater fool. I purchased a puppy from RGoldens, paid way too much, and while we love the dog, and she's healthy and well adjusted, she's just a dog and we way overpaid. Is that my fault, Jamel's or the evil puppy fairy?
While I don't agree that these folks can be blameless while charging the maximum the market will bear (sort of like the robber barons of the 1920s, direct ancestors of the guys who drove our economy off a cliff recently-having the power to do something, doesn't make it right), the proper response, in my view, isn't to point out his ethical blind spot, but to allow the market to do what markets do. Folks should compete, produce same or better quality dogs, at fairer prices, and drive the money changers out of the temple. That's how markets work. There will always be robber barons, and they'll almost always crash and burn as competition flourishes.
So, all of you breeders who are impugning Jamel's character, turn that energy into competing and quit whining. Shame on me for being duped (if I was), shame on Jamel for not having a long view and shame on the breeder world for not competing on quality and undercutting his price.


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## Megora

This is a three year old thread....


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## Jersey's Mom

DeepDish said:


> I am, in fact, the greater fool. I purchased a puppy from RGoldens, paid way too much, and while we love the dog, and she's healthy and well adjusted, she's just a dog and we way overpaid. Is that my fault, Jamel's or the evil puppy fairy?
> While I don't agree that these folks can be blameless while charging the maximum the market will bear (sort of like the robber barons of the 1920s, direct ancestors of the guys who drove our economy off a cliff recently-having the power to do something, doesn't make it right), the proper response, in my view, isn't to point out his ethical blind spot, but to allow the market to do what markets do. Folks should compete, produce same or better quality dogs, at fairer prices, and drive the money changers out of the temple. That's how markets work. There will always be robber barons, and they'll almost always crash and burn as competition flourishes.
> So, all of you breeders who are impugning Jamel's character, turn that energy into competing and quit whining. Shame on me for being duped (if I was), shame on Jamel for not having a long view and shame on the breeder world for not competing on quality and undercutting his price.


Most reputable breeders charge significantly less than $2900 for a puppy. These reputable breeders do, as you suggest, "produce same or better quality dogs, at fairer prices." They produce these better quality dogs by being involved in competition events that prove their dog's merit in conformation and/or the field and/or obedience/performance events... not only showing the dogs are top quality but also working to prevent kennel blindness by taking these third party evaluations into account. They produce these better quality dogs by getting (at minimum) the four core clearances recommended in the GRCA code of ethics -- elbows and hips performed after 24 months of age (so not "preliminary clearances" at 18 months as is done on some of the Recherche dogs), annual eye clearances by a certified veterinary opthamologist, and a heart clearance after 1 year of age performed by a board certified veterinary cardiologist. They provide a better product by not trying to sell people on the fool's gold lies of the superiority of "English Cremes" as regards health or structure (the biggest lie of all being that a classification of "English Creme" does not even exist. There is English or European style... but that is a whole different story and has absolutely nothing to do with the color of the dog). They provide a better guarantee/warrantee by not requiring that dog owners buy snake oil (sorry -- NuVet) in order for said guarantee to be valid. 

It's already there. They're already doing it. And they're doing it for far less than what Recherche is charging. And yet people still choose to buy from this greeder. So I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting?

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## DeepDish

Megora said:


> This is a three year old thread....


I think my point is this. We came to the decision to buy a dog from this breeder as lifelong dog owners taken by the story skillfully told of a variant of a Golden (I'll leave the "is it really a new breed" discussion to smarter folks) that seemed kind of interesting. We worked hard to find breeders, and obviously settled on a questionable source. Your "this is what good breeders do" description makes sense, but clearly didn't penetrate the market. What you suggest may have worked for the first 4 dogs we've purchased over the years, but didn't translate to the world of information we live in now. My suggestion is pretty simple. What you say makes sense, but you're not saying it loudly and broadly enough-we spent weeks looking (on the 'net as we look for everything in our lives) and found very few accessible tools to help us find a breed/breeder, and we got sold. 
My short view is that the world of commerce has changed a ton in the last 5 years, and the dog world hasn't kept up, and should.


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## AmbikaGR

DeepDish said:


> My short view is that the world of commerce has changed a ton in the last 5 years, and the dog world hasn't kept up, and should.



But you are missing the fact that for responsible breeders, those truly breeding for the betterment of the breed, that it is not about commerce at all. For breeders such as the one being discussed it is about nothing BUT commerce.


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## Nairb

DeepDish said:


> I think my point is this. We came to the decision to buy a dog from this breeder as lifelong dog owners taken by the story skillfully told of a variant of a Golden (I'll leave the "is it really a new breed" discussion to smarter folks) that seemed kind of interesting. We worked hard to find breeders, and obviously settled on a questionable source. Your "this is what good breeders do" description makes sense, but clearly didn't penetrate the market. What you suggest may have worked for the first 4 dogs we've purchased over the years, but didn't translate to the world of information we live in now. My suggestion is pretty simple. What you say makes sense, but you're not saying it loudly and broadly enough-we spent weeks looking (on the 'net as we look for everything in our lives) and found very few accessible tools to help us find a breed/breeder, and we got sold.
> My short view is that the world of commerce has changed a ton in the last 5 years, and the dog world hasn't kept up, and should.


There is no incentive for the good breeders to spend a lot of time and money promoting themselves. The puppies are usually sold before they are born.


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## HiTideGoldens

DeepDish said:


> I think my point is this. We came to the decision to buy a dog from this breeder as lifelong dog owners taken by the story skillfully told of a variant of a Golden (I'll leave the "is it really a new breed" discussion to smarter folks) that seemed kind of interesting. We worked hard to find breeders, and obviously settled on a questionable source. Your "this is what good breeders do" description makes sense, but clearly didn't penetrate the market. What you suggest may have worked for the first 4 dogs we've purchased over the years, but didn't translate to the world of information we live in now. My suggestion is pretty simple. What you say makes sense, but you're not saying it loudly and broadly enough-we spent weeks looking (on the 'net as we look for everything in our lives) and found very few accessible tools to help us find a breed/breeder, and we got sold.
> My short view is that the world of commerce has changed a ton in the last 5 years, and the dog world hasn't kept up, and should.


 
I'm curious what you were searching for on the internet that got you here. Many people find this forum in their initial puppy search, I know that's how I found this forum about 4-5 years ago. However, I didn't join the forum until the end of 2009 when we brought home our Jack. Clearly you found this forum in order to post now....so something brought you here. I mean this in the nicest way possibly, but I can't help but wonder if the instant gratification part of getting a puppy made the health issues less of a concern when you were looking. You may have seen them, read them, but they didn't sink in. You were looking for available puppies from someone who seemed knowledgeable. I can, with absolute certainty, say you are not the only person to be sucked in by that type of unscrupulous breeder. 

With regards to saying it "loudly enough," reputable breeders promote breeding with all health clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics. It is typically on their websites. I have a website for my dogs, am not planning on breeding anything at any time in the near future, however, I have it on mine. The GRCA has numerous links regarding the purchasing of puppies, as do the local golden clubs (including mine in San Diego). Short of a marketing campaign (which I hate to break it to you, neither breeders nor breed clubs have the desire to run or the capital to fund) I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting???


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## Newbe

*Need help*

I am new to the site and very thankful to have found it. Our golden passed away about a year ago and we have just started to look for a new breeder as our original has over the last 15 years retired. As fate would have it we somehow ended up on the RGolden site which has been a hot topic of discussion on this forum. The info surfaced has been very helpful, like others we were somewhat skeptical but had the defenses lowered by the fact that a Pastor was at the center of it. This will not be a quick process for us and will take a few months. I am looking for a reputable breeder in the upper mid west southern Ontario or western Canada. I'm seeking some suggestions can you please help - Thanks


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## drofen

Newbe said:


> I am new to the site and very thankful to have found it. Our golden passed away about a year ago and we have just started to look for a new breeder as our original has over the last 15 years retired. As fate would have it we somehow ended up on the RGolden site which has been a hot topic of discussion on this forum. The info surfaced has been very helpful, like others we were somewhat skeptical but had the defenses lowered by the fact that a Pastor was at the center of it. This will not be a quick process for us and will take a few months. I am looking for a reputable breeder in the upper mid west southern Ontario or western Canada. I'm seeking some suggestions can you please help - Thanks


Though you will get some answers here (I'm not in that area of the world so probably not much help) but more likely you'd get more help if you started a thread of your own under the puppy referral/breeder section. Might be less cynical answers too in your own thread.

Thank you for looking to do things the right way and being patient!:wavey:


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## Newbe

Thank you for your suggestion, I will head that way. Will leave the post here as well, the information has been very helpful and will form a baseline from which to grow.


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## Gwen_Dandridge

Pointgold said:


> Victoria was the only one to have puppies before she was 2 years old. She was 18 months old when she had her litter and produced extremely healthy puppies."
> 
> I'm not very smart, as we've been told, but I THINK that 1+1= 2.
> Now, I'm not sure how it is that we know that Kati will be having puppies when she is 2 years and 1 week old, but it means that she was bred before she was two...


She's a very superior gestator, able to produce puppies after only one week of being bred!!!


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## DeepDish

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm curious what you were searching for on the internet that got you here. Many people find this forum in their initial puppy search, I know that's how I found this forum about 4-5 years ago. However, I didn't join the forum until the end of 2009 when we brought home our Jack. Clearly you found this forum in order to post now....so something brought you here. I mean this in the nicest way possibly, but I can't help but wonder if the instant gratification part of getting a puppy made the health issues less of a concern when you were looking. You may have seen them, read them, but they didn't sink in. You were looking for available puppies from someone who seemed knowledgeable. I can, with absolute certainty, say you are not the only person to be sucked in by that type of unscrupulous breeder.
> 
> With regards to saying it "loudly enough," reputable breeders promote breeding with all health clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics. It is typically on their websites. I have a website for my dogs, am not planning on breeding anything at any time in the near future, however, I have it on mine. The GRCA has numerous links regarding the purchasing of puppies, as do the local golden clubs (including mine in San Diego). Short of a marketing campaign (which I hate to break it to you, neither breeders nor breed clubs have the desire to run or the capital to fund) I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting???


Thanks for the reply. We lost two dogs last fall, both Goldens, separated by about 4 months. It was devastating, as you can imagine. We approached the "should we" question carefully, as we were trying to do what was best for our then alive, but clearly ill (cancer on the her tongue) Golden.. So, we did not rush blindly, or shallowly, into the quest. We're pretty thoughtful folks, and we made our choice thoughtfully, and in retrospect we overpaid for a really sweet little puppy. Since we've had Goldens our entire lives, we knew we wanted another, and were searching for breeders, not breed advice. I'm not sure if that's why we didn't find this site, but we did interview, by phone and in person, 6-7 other breeders of both American and English Goldens.
Was our due diligence sloppy? No. Did we stupidly overpay? Yes..Does it change our view that the breeder is sub par, not really..


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## Sirfoulhook

I just checked out the breeders site. Looked at pups for sale and they averaged 8k per pup. Am I reading that right? Holy Handgrenades Batman! Makes me feel like a got the deal of the century on my pup, Buddy.


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## cgriffin

Hm, I just looked at that website: 'white golden retrievers' says it all. Not to mention all the other bull...

I don't know whether to laugh, cry or throw up.


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## Sirfoulhook

Just to be clear, I did not buy a pup from them, nor would I. Incomplete health clearances.


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## cgriffin

No worries, nobody thinks that


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## tippykayak

Thought you guys might be interested that Recherche is currently advertising a dog online that they are asking $24,900 for.

Here's a screenshot in case they change the page.


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## SunnynSey

I saw this on Facebook, everyone was disgusted with what this "breeder" is doing, apparently he allegedly bragged to one poster about the nice house and car he has thanks to his "business". It makes me so mad that so many real quality breeders out there don't even break even when producing dogs that are a true asset to the breed while this guy is laughing all the way to the bank with his unethical practices (like making up a doggy doctorate title to justify a 25k dollar dog?!?!).


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## Daisy123

That's awful! Also Jimmy Fallon used some of their pups on his show which makes them look like a good breeder. Once you look at the website its red flags galore. Poor dogs.


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## Ljilly28

This is going to sound mean, but if anyone pays 25k or 29k for a golden who isnt a bomb sniffing genius or something extraordinary I cant think of right now, they almost deserve what they get. This outfit selling the dogs this way is just brazenly out to take advantage of the dogs and the public for money. The whole thing is absurdity on high.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

i suppose they're tapping into the Rich Stupid Braggart market...you know, the person who likes to announce to a roomful of strangers at a party how much he/she paid for everything. 

I pity the poor dog the second he does something...doggy. 

If you don't count things like decency, humaneness, or honesty, this is a remarkably brazen way to dress up a dog that didn't sell with the rest of the litter or who was returned.

In short, they are scum.


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## Cpc1972

This is ridiculous. Plus did you notice how fat that puppy in the video was. He must be way overfed.


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## fourlakes

I guess this might appeal to people who, as my dad used to say, have "more dollars than sense." They think they're getting something special solely by paying an exorbitant price. Quite a piece of marketing on this breeder's part. But marketing doesn't always have much to do with what's ethical. And price doesn't always have much to do with "the best". What a scam.
Edited to add: My son and his wife both work in marketing which is why I have such a cute website  There's marketing as in getting the word out in a fun, appealing way and there's marketing as in hawking snake oil.


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## Leslie B

I am astounded that they would even consider asking for that kind of money for a puppy. Their idea of "trained" is just plain manners. Look at it this way - they are asking someone to pay them $29 an hour to teach their puppy to sit, kennel up, and not jump on the furniture.

I have seen Master Hunters advertised for sale, and a few derby dogs, and all of them have been for under $10,000 and I know these dogs have at least a couple of thousand hours of training into them.


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## Rumple’s Mom

Twenty.....four....thousand....dollars?! Yes that warranted spelling it out and all the ellipses. Who would be stupid enough to fall for this?! 

And yes, that dog looks overweight to me. What's with the curly hair too? Am I missing something?


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## Swampcollie

There is a segment of the population that does not want to have anything to do with the puppy experience. They want to purchase a trained adult dog and will pay whatever it takes to get what they want. They usually aren't concerned with the breeding of the dog. Their concern is with what the dog "looks like" and that it responds to their commands as soon as they get it. This is a totally different kind of market, rules and expectations, than most of us usually deal with. 

It's a supply and demand driven area and there is more demand than available dogs so the prices get very high very quickly. Another way to look at it is this is the high end segment of the "Fad" and "I want it now no matter what" marketplace.


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## Moonbridge

Wow!! I'm almost speechless. I went to the webiste and watched the video of their precious George. I can't even find words for what I saw. 
At 8 months, shouldn't the pup be able to sit still and not be given treat after treat and be so wiggly with all the "training" they've done?
I know that puppies get excited but my 8 month old would have "shown" much better in my opinion.
And I have to agree that he's a chunky fellow. Poor guy as I look at his hip angles etc.

Nice place they live though? I'd take it 

Wow, so much head shaking going on.


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## nolefan

There are still discrepancies between what is listed on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals site for health clearances and what is claimed on the site. Hopefully anyone who is spending that much money would at least ask to see hardcopy proof of health clearances. The website is still quite funny.


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## rabernet

tippykayak said:


> Thought you guys might be interested that Recherche is currently advertising a dog online that they are asking $24,900 for.
> 
> Here's a screenshot in case they change the page.


They also have a female, Maya, who is also a "double doctorate" for the same price. :doh:


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## Rumple’s Mom

rabernet said:


> They also have a female, Maya, who is also a "double doctorate" for the same price. :doh:


All I have to say is summed up in this meme:


----------



## Melfice

Wow but there is a local breeder in my area who sells young adult dogs with their CGC titles, and more that sell between $10,000 to $15,000 dollars.

Some of their young pups fully trained sell for $5000 to $8000 bucks.


----------



## Anon-2130948gsoni

Gotta ask...is there such of a thing as a "fully trained" puppy? I assume they mean more than housetrained?

So much of dog training involves training the trainer, developing a working bond between dog and handler, and retraining behaviors in new situations and environments...I'm super-skeptical that you can buy a shortcut to that process?


----------



## K9-Design

Sorry but even a dog that is housebroken, collar conditioned for a recall and with basic CGC manners is not worth anything close to $5000. If that's the case, I've missed my calling because I could buy puppies out of the newspaper, train them til they're six months old and have that. Anyone who spends that amount of money on am 8 month old "trained" puppy is just a complete idiot.


----------



## Melfice

I agree, but since they sell their dogs...someone is buying them. For the young adults with their CGC titles, would not be cheap anywhere I'm thinking.


----------



## Pirate Molly

I agree with all of you in this forum. These dogs are overpriced and do not seem to have clearances and some are too young to be bred. The only way a dog is worth 10,000 or more is if they are a police, rescue or assistance dog with 2 years of training.
I just watched a video of him with a 12 week old female doing clicker training she sat and stayed and well , but he rewarded her for an incomplete down! I shudder to think about the cost and quality of the training even at the puppy level here.


----------



## rabernet

Also, apparently they are no longer in Roanoke, VA, but Statesville, NC now. And he's the principal of the Christian academy there too.


----------



## Ljilly28

Melfice said:


> Wow but there is a local breeder in my area who sells young adult dogs with their CGC titles, and more that sell between $10,000 to $15,000 dollars.
> 
> Some of their young pups fully trained sell for $5000 to $8000 bucks.


Every single one of my goldens does CGC by 6 months mainly as a benchmark for myself to work with the pup as well as play. CGC is a wonderful benchmark but wow I cant see it as affecting the price of a dog . I am mainly baffled by this market, and also by instinct want no part of it bc it seems to exploit the buyer and the dogs at the same time. We can do a CGC with most people's golden young adults in 6 -8 weeks for 145.00$. ( a savings of 14, 850). Also, goldens have so many health issues- hoping for good health to all goldens but they could pay 29K and lose the dog to lymphoma at 4.


----------



## Melfice

Ljilly28 said:


> Every single one of my goldens does CGC by 6 months mainly as a benchmark for myself to work with the pup as well as play. CGC is a wonderful benchmark but wow I cant see it as affecting the price of a dog . I am mainly baffled by this market, and also by instinct want no part of it bc it seems to exploit the buyer and the dogs at the same time. We can do a CGC with most people's golden young adults in 6 -8 weeks for 145.00$. ( a savings of 14, 850). Also, goldens have so many health issues- hoping for good health to all goldens but they could pay 29K and lose the dog to lymphoma at 4.


Yeah but I figure the only people who buy these goldens must be the gov no? For service dogs and stuff.


----------



## Pirate Molly

No not assistance dogs, but yes for the others or private organizations. Some assistance dog organizations do absorb the cost usually non profits, but they have longer waits eg 2 yrs. shorter waits require full payment or partial payment with trade off in volunteer service to the organization.


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## Swampcollie

Pirate Molly said:


> The only way a dog is worth 10,000 or more is if they are a police, rescue or assistance dog with 2 years of training.


Oh, you would be soooo surprised at the prices some dogs can sell for. There was a quite famous field trial dog that sold for a six figure price tag ( in fairness it did have far more than two years of training).


----------



## TheZ's

Swampcollie said:


> Oh, you would be soooo surprised at the prices some dogs can sell for. There was a quite famous field trial dog that sold for a six figure price tag ( in fairness it did have far more than two years of training).


What's that about? Someone just has to have "the top dog" and can afford to and is willing to pay up for it? Or wants to have breeding rights to it? Don't field trial dogs continue to work with the same person that trained them? Just trying to understand this.


----------



## Swampcollie

TheZ's said:


> What's that about? Someone just has to have "the top dog" and can afford to and is willing to pay up for it? Or wants to have breeding rights to it? Don't field trial dogs continue to work with the same person that trained them? Just trying to understand this.


There are some people with very deep pockets, and they want what they want and will pay whatever they have to to get it. I have clients that have spent thousands of dollars on fuel to fly in on their private jets just to look at a litter of pups. Then they do it again when they come back to pick the puppy up.


----------



## tippykayak

K9-Design said:


> Sorry but even a dog that is housebroken, collar conditioned for a recall and with basic CGC manners is not worth anything close to $5000. If that's the case, I've missed my calling because I could buy puppies out of the newspaper, train them til they're six months old and have that. Anyone who spends that amount of money on am 8 month old "trained" puppy is just a complete idiot.


This exact thought has gone through my head. At these prices, you could team up with a breeder, train ten dogs a year, and keep well into six figures after taxes. 

The only reason not to do it is that it depends on a lack of education in your clientele, which I don't think I could live with, and it also wouldn't work that well, because I don't think the training would really stick if you didn't train the people first.


----------



## thomas&betts

Has this breeder produced any dogs with reported and confirmed hip dysplasia? Any reported and verified cardiac problems? The produced and trained dogs are clearly trained and conditioned beyond 8 weeks and this is obviously an additional expense and quality. Perhaps a better way to encourage better breeding by the GRCA and it's adherents would be inclusive judging at events. As things stand, the lighter coat "English" version is excluded by arbitrary language written by "the few", while the many pay a premium for what they see as healthier and better looking dog.


----------



## LJack

thomas&betts said:


> As things stand, the lighter coat "English" version is excluded by arbitrary language written by "the few", while the many pay a premium for what they see as healthier and better looking dog.


Um...you do know that the standard which, I grant has been revised differently in the US, originally did not include cream at all. The UK standard add it in 1936. There is a thought that it was added to refer specifically to dogs of lighter feathering and undercoat. 

Aside from that, there is nothing to stop a well structured dog from competing in AKC conformation even if it is light. We have very light US dogs and imports that compete and win. Many dog overseas could also do well here. Sadly most who claim it is unfair, not possible or other excuses do so because their dogs have fault beyond color that limit thier ability to successfully compete.


----------



## AmbikaGR

thomas&betts said:


> while the many pay a premium for what they see as healthier and better looking dog.



Please define by what method you come about the "many" and "healthier"?


----------



## Prism Goldens

WB at the 2014 National was an English type bitch. I know her owner is an 'English cream' kind of breeder. She was also RWB at Westminster- so I hardly think there is a big conspiracy... a nice bitch is a nice bitch no matter the color.


----------



## Cpc1972

AmbikaGR said:


> Please define by what method you come about the "many" and "healthier"?


Exactly. That puppy was fat.


----------



## Megora

Originally Posted by *LJack*  
_Aside from that, there is nothing to stop a well structured dog from competing in AKC conformation even if it is light. We have very light US dogs and imports that compete and win. Many dog overseas could also do well here. Sadly most who claim it is unfair, not possible or other excuses do so because their dogs have fault beyond color that limit thier ability to successfully compete._
Bertie has a 1/2 sister being shown in the 9-12 class (and winning) right now who is very light (super light - probably would get called "crème" by some) and probably will not darken up too much more. Has a really nice big head, nice bone, and thick coat (meaning undercoat). No European dogs behind her - and actually both parents are medium gold. 

More important than that - she's a really well made dog. You can easily look past her really light color when comparing her to the other dogs in the ring. 

I haven't really looked at the breeder in this thread, but similar breeders that I've looked at with just a glance - the dogs are not well made. You have some relatively minor issues that I see with the shape of the eyes and looseness of the faces causing tear streaks (my Jacks has something similar - so it's something I always notice and made a point of avoiding before I got Bertie). Then you have some other stuff going on with dogs who are just a mess as far as being really too overweight for their size, who are over sized, who have no legs under them, have no bone, and so on... 

I'm all for getting different lines out there - and I do want more people feeling encouraged to show their dogs. But that all said, you have a lot of people who get stuck on certain styles or colors and they forget the rest of the dog.


----------



## thomas&betts

AmbikaGR said:


> Please define by what method you come about the "many" and "healthier"?


Sure. The "many" I refer to are those who pass right by the "show breeders" puppies to drive the supply and price of the less plentiful "English Creme's" higher in many cases than the American Gold's. Simply a reference to a supply demand observation. The "healthier" reference is my own observation based on the hip structure of my Goldens (both English & American). In my case, and since you fairly asked for an explanation, I chose which breeder to give my support to based on structure, health, and beauty. On a personal note, I chose the darkest Golden in the litter for possible "field work". I chose the "English" lines for healthy structure. Thanks for asking.


----------



## AmbikaGR

thomas&betts said:


> Sure. The "many" I refer to are those who pass right by the "show breeders" puppies to drive the supply and price of the less plentiful "English Creme's" higher in many cases than the American Gold's. Simply a reference to a supply demand observation. The "healthier" reference is my own observation based on the hip structure of my Goldens (both English & American). In my case, and since you fairly asked for an explanation, I chose which breeder to give my support to based on structure, health, and beauty. On a personal note, I chose the darkest Golden in the litter for possible "field work". I chose the "English" lines for healthy structure. Thanks for asking.


So the "many" then equate to the mostly uneducated buyers. Seeing as you quantify your "healthier" by saying it is reference to your observation in your own Goldens I won't dispute the claim. But will say I do not believe it to be true in general from my observations. 
And I may be reading more into " I chose the darkest Golden in the litter for possible "field work". I chose the "English" lines for healthy structure." but it sounds like you bought the darkest Golden because you equate that to field potential?


----------



## mm2k14

Pirate Molly said:


> The only way a dog is worth 10,000 or more is if they are a police, rescue or assistance dog with 2 years of training.


(I realize this thread hasn't been active for a year, but I had to stop by and say something.) 

A fully trained service animal is worth _up to_ $25,000. Like Molly said, this is an animal that has been trained for an average of 2 years (at least 18 months), and is ready/capable of working. We won't even get into the wash-out rate of dogs in training.


----------



## Prism Goldens

mm2k14 said:


> (I realize this thread hasn't been active for a year, but I had to stop by and say something.)
> 
> A fully trained service animal is worth _up to_ $25,000. Like Molly said, this is an animal that has been trained for an average of 2 years (at least 18 months), and is ready/capable of working. We won't even get into the wash-out rate of dogs in training.


Absolutely. A 'real' service dog training program absolutely has that much money in their washouts and the fully trained service animal is worth a fortune. This breeder/trainer is selling 16 week old puppies for 13k and 16 week puppies for 15k or more. There is no way they are trained to a level warranting this cost. If you read their 'college' list of accomplishments, they are no different than any other puppy who has been trained as they ought just to be a family member, a dog who's owner is involved and working to a partnership.


----------



## mwadle001

A family member of mine bought a golden from this person. (said family member is a bit lazy, not at all interested in the breed or training her dogs). She bought her dog at 6 months of age, already "trained". She won't tell me what she paid but I know it was a lot. The dog is a sweet and lovely companion, but conformation wise not quite "breed standard." The pup has had some elbow issues and there was concern for elbow dysplasia. The breeder was defensive about it. I was irate when I heard that my family member acquired their family pet from this website, knowing that this is really a glorified money making outfit. However, over the 18 months she has had the dog, I can't help but love the dog.


----------



## Megora

No matter where dogs come from - they are lovable. 

You could purchase the most funky looking and crippled animal from a puppy mill - and it would not be very long before that dog owns your heart. 

Doesn't make it OK to buy from these places though.


----------



## Prism Goldens

I know- it's an old thread... not sure why I got to wondering what became of this breeder but today I re-read the thread, and checked OFA .... thought to update it.
None of the dogs he said he was going to do have been done now that they're well over 2.
Somewhere in it all he said he NEVER sold and NEVER WOULD sell a dog on full-
someone should tell this one: Pedigree: Recherche's Beach 
and this one is a lie on k9data- Pedigree: A Precious Jewel of Recherche since that 'normal elbow' is not on her OFA page Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and now he's using a practitioner for cardiac exams (way back on the first half he said he would never use less than a cardio)... 
well, it was an interesting way to spend a rainy afternoon, reinforcing in my mind that people who are snake oil salesmen never change much. Even if they make public statements to their intent to do better.


----------



## padre

Prism Goldens said:


> I know- it's an old thread... not sure why I got to wondering what became of this breeder but today I re-read the thread, and checked OFA .... thought to update it.
> None of the dogs he said he was going to do have been done now that they're well over 2.
> Somewhere in it all he said he NEVER sold and NEVER WOULD sell a dog on full-
> someone should tell this one: Pedigree: Recherche's Beach
> and this one is a lie on k9data- Pedigree: A Precious Jewel of Recherche since that 'normal elbow' is not on her OFA page Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and now he's using a practitioner for cardiac exams (way back on the first half he said he would never use less than a cardio)...
> well, it was an interesting way to spend a rainy afternoon, reinforcing in my mind that people who are snake oil salesmen never change much. Even if they make public statements to their intent to do better.


I've run into some bad "hombre" breeders over the last 10 yrs since I've been an owner of a Golden.
And by far this breeder ranks as one of the worst I have seen-and that is saying a lot.
His "faith" and ethics are so off putting that and it cannot be justified via "capitalism".
There is such a thing as unfettered, unethical and soulless capitalism where "profit" is the ends to justify any means.
Organized crime and politics thrives in capitalist cultures. That does not mean capitalism is evil, but it does mean that without ethics and morals profit will be the "magical word" to justify any practice.

The bottom line for anyone who adores this breed is to make sure the breed is improvedved upon and not used as a means to profiteer.
The Recherche site along with his blatant hypocrisy are all red flags. 
And to top it off, the breed suffers, animals suffer as a consequence.


----------



## Prism Goldens

And today (since this thread came up) I looked at the bitch 'Jewel' change history - Leslie took the elbow off...and someone posted her status on ICT as affected...but then Jamel took that off less than a month later. 
So much for ethics.


----------



## nolefan

Prism Goldens said:


> And today (since this thread came up) I looked at the bitch 'Jewel' change history - Leslie took the elbow off...and someone posted her status on ICT as affected...but then Jamel took that off less than a month later.
> So much for ethics.


The elbow listed on k9data was changed? If something is posted on OFA it can't be removed, right? I wonder how he justifies this to himself?


----------



## Prism Goldens

nolefan said:


> The elbow listed on k9data was changed? If something is posted on OFA it can't be removed, right? I wonder how he justifies this to himself?


He'd put 'normal' on k9data- it was never on OFA. 
But it wasn't normal (even the prelim apparently from BVA said 0/1 on elbows on k9data).
Change history often shows interesting info.

Methinks the preacher man is a little selective on truth issues.


----------



## Audog

I have been reading this thread, and went to breeders website today. So for $11,000 or more, I can get a puppy who better be perfect. It will never have an accident right before the guests arrive, never chew a shoe because it "was there", won't chew on various plants in the yard, would never eat something gross, then throw it up and eat it again, won't counter surf, isn't a land shark, won't try to lick my granddaughters face as she is walking around, couldn't possibly be the one who somehow "shredded" the bath mat while I was in the shower, or any one of a million things that our lovable pups can, and often do. I mean for that much money, it ought to be perfect from day one. Oh yea, can I get one of the pups that were on TV, with Daniel Craig, in the Aston Martin commercial. 
I understand that a breeder is entitled to make money, but I could have bought the entire litter my boy came from for less than the price of one celebrity dog from this breeder. Just had to get this off my chest.
Thanks for listening.


----------



## Leslie B

Of course they are also a NuVet distributor! 

Use their special code and buy the overpriced nothing vitamins and you get an extension of their warranty - UGGG. I shake my head at this website and their pack of omissions and embellishments. 

Not only are clearances missing or outdated there is plenty of evidence of outright fraud. Why would a dog bred by them have European clearances??? I smell a rat.

Their math is also suspect. How would you ever get 250 hours of training into a puppy from 6 to 12 weeks old? That would be almost 6 hours a day for 7 days a week! At the end of that the puppy can sit, is mostly housebroken, walk on a leash, do stairs, and is crate trained? Most puppies at this age sleep 18 plus hours a day so every minute they are awake someone is working with them? They also must be the dumbest puppies on earth because 250 hours is a lot of time to teach these simple things. Stairs take about 15 minutes, crate training a few days - maybe a week. 

Too bad that so many people fall for this kind of smoke and mirrors. They are in business today because they are still selling puppies at ten times what they are worth.


----------



## usually lurking

Leslie B said:


> They also must be the dumbest puppies on earth because 250 hours is a lot of time to teach these simple things.


This made me LOL for real. Thank you!


----------



## Audog

Leslie B said:


> Of course they are also a NuVet distributor!
> 
> Use their special code and buy the overpriced nothing vitamins and you get an extension of their warranty - UGGG. I shake my head at this website and their pack of omissions and embellishments.
> 
> Not only are clearances missing or outdated there is plenty of evidence of outright fraud. Why would a dog bred by them have European clearances??? I smell a rat.
> 
> Their math is also suspect. How would you ever get 250 hours of training into a puppy from 6 to 12 weeks old? That would be almost 6 hours a day for 7 days a week! At the end of that the puppy can sit, is mostly housebroken, walk on a leash, do stairs, and is crate trained? Most puppies at this age sleep 18 plus hours a day so every minute they are awake someone is working with them? They also must be the dumbest puppies on earth because 250 hours is a lot of time to teach these simple things. Stairs take about 15 minutes, crate training a few days - maybe a week.
> 
> Too bad that so many people fall for this kind of smoke and mirrors. They are in business today because they are still selling puppies at ten times what they are worth.


My dog must be unusual, as the first day he was here, I went up the stairs and he just followed me, no training, well maybe 250 seconds, he also followed me down without hesitation. Plus he can sit, stay ( unless he sees a squirrel), down, walk on a leash AND he loves to go through tunnels and see-saws and jumping over low bars, and I'm not even doing agility with him. He is a normal Golden Retriever, no wait- he is a normal RARE English cream, white golden Retriever, so he must be worth much more than I paid, right? The truth is I'm partial to lighter colors in cars, furnishings, clothes and dogs, but I don't really care what color he grows up to be, I love him for who he is. And I didn't pay $11000+ for him.


----------



## nolefan

Well, now it appears RGoldens is also RCavapoos and RCavaliers..... I would love to have Recherche explain why the new dogs are all from eastern european countires too. Maybe because he can't get dogs from reputable American breeders.

https://trainedcavs.com/our-breeds/

https://trainedcavs.com/


----------



## puddles everywhere

Nolefan I have no info on this post but will say I did send Sipsy's failed eye clearance to OFA. I received an email from OFA showing the newly posted entry. 
A few weeks later it was gone.. just the eye & not the heart. The response from OFA was it was never posted. When I presented the original email with the June date (turns out it was the same person) I was told it was a computer glitch. Not feeling very confident but what can you do?


----------



## Prism Goldens

Nothing the last few months has changed my mind about this "breeder". Adding breeds to the mix only makes me more concerned.


----------



## goldenggraces

I know this thread is old....but I just wanted to inform everyone based on what I have learned in the last week or so.

I have cousin who is looking to get an "english cream" style golden retriever as they just lost their 12 year old golden. They are looking at Recherche, and before I could give them any of my advice. I have my own golden and am always reading up on the breed and interested in checking out new breeders. I wanted to check out this breeder myself. Not only are their discrepancies in their OFA clearances: A few of their dams are listed as "OFA: "excellent"" or "OFA: "good"" on their website, but absolutely no record of those clearances on the OFA website.....so that is that. It is also mind-blowing that they are straight up advertising for sale puppies on their website. 

Anyway, my cousins went ahead and placed a deposit on one of their current litters. They held these puppies back for training in their outrageous puppy academy or whatever, and a couple of weeks ago they had a terrible Parvo outbreak and ended up losing most of their puppies do to the virus. My cousins' puppy was one of the ones who sadly passed away. I don't know what that means for the rest of their kennel. Does a Parvo outbreak mean that their dogs' housing conditions are unclean by any means? I do not know. I had never really given much thought to parvo after my dogs were vaccinated and everything. Does this have any affect on their dogs? (exposure or carrying the virus??) Recherche immediately offered a replacement puppy but they decided to go in a different direction and are going with a different breeder now and are bringing a healthy puppy home at the end of August I believe. I just wanted to put this information out there for anyone considering getting one of their dogs. I am also curious as to the questions I mentioned above. Again I am still learning and am actually wondering about the Parvo.


----------



## Megora

Really sad.... wouldn't wish a parvo outbreak on anyone, especially one so catastrophic.  

A lot of breeders do not let too many outside people handle the puppies or get too close to them prior to shots.


----------



## laurenC

YIKES! I just went over their website. I'm pretty well floored. These people wreak of PUPPY MILL. The amount of OUTRIGHT LIES on that site is really gross. RUN AND HIDE!!!!!


----------



## Prism Goldens

So sad- no matter how horrid the breeding program is, the puppies didn't ask to be born and have to go through the almost sure pains of parvo...
Not sure they would be able to clean enough to be sure they have gotten it gone. It can live for a year or more in the environment, and with the volume of puppies that they have through there, there's no telling if they could even know everywhere someone tracked the virus.


----------



## Brad hccmil

Ljilly28 said:


> Lol, you are so right bc it kind of worked on me. Even though I know the red flags through and through and really object to everything from the silly french accent mark on "creme"( dogs or yogurt?)(the dogs are supposed to be british so the french twist perplexes me, always) to the silly claims of having the best champion dogs in the whole world, the impression that they seem so innocent and sincere and he is a pastor and the dog on the lap video etc sucked me in a little bit. I still wouldn't buy a dog from there, but I felt bad being critical.


So I fell for their song and dance at recherche. My first dog from them died suddenly from a health condition within their 4 year guarantee. I told them; they honored the rebate...the rebate is for the puppy and not the training. So for example, if $22k is paid, which is a ballpark price for a 12 week old puppy on their website, your rebate is only for the cost of the puppy (maybe 5-10 k) .
Got a new puppy from them and already have health issues with the poor little guy. 

The pup has had the incessant itching since the day we got him...bald spots, rash, bumps. They are not helpful at all and my vets are still trying to figure out what it is.


----------



## Prism Goldens

High volume breeders such as this have zero interest in what happens downline- I'm so sorry. I don't think they even consider health.


----------



## nolefan

Everytime I see the name "Recherche" my skin crawls. This thread makes me so sad.


----------



## CAROLINA MOM

Brad hccmil said:


> So I fell for their song and dance at recherche. My first dog from them died suddenly from a health condition within their 4 year guarantee. I told them; they honored the rebate...the rebate is for the puppy and not the training. So for example, if $22k is paid, which is a ballpark price for a 12 week old puppy on their website, your rebate is only for the cost of the puppy (maybe 5-10 k) .
> Got a new puppy from them and already have health issues with the poor little guy.
> 
> The pup has had the incessant itching since the day we got him...bald spots, rash, bumps. They are not helpful at all and my vets are still trying to figure out what it is.


Really sad to hear this, very sorry.


----------



## DanaRuns

Brad hccmil said:


> So for example, if $22k is paid, which is a ballpark price for a 12 week old puppy.


$22,000 for a 12-week old puppy with four weeks of "training"?!?!? Dang, I'm not charging _nearly_ enough for my puppies! Maybe I should double or triple what I'm asking.



> The pup has had the incessant itching since the day we got him...bald spots, rash, bumps. They are not helpful at all and my vets are still trying to figure out what it is.


If it's not a parasite, my bet is on ichthyosis, a genetic disease which should be covered by their warranty, and which is a disease no carefully bred Golden should ever get.


----------



## peekaboo!

RGoldens said:


> I'm very sorry that I did not discover this thread earlier. I just found this thread today and was very disheartened by most of the threads written about me.
> 
> First of all, I am new to breeding Golden Retrievers. I bred American Eskimos (www.PlatinumEskies.com) since 2004. They are a completely different breed. I also help my mother with her website (www.HeavenSentEskies.com) as you can tell. It's a little confusing and I have been accused of being a dog broker because of this.
> 
> I did do a large amount of research when putting together my website but obviously I didn't do enough. This forum would have helped us out tremendously if we found it sooner. Almost all of my website is a compilation of others. My warranty page, my webpage on the differences between English and American Goldens and more are from others. I never put together a Warranty Page before and the one that I saw made the most sense. I have edited as I am becoming more educated and I believe now that every thing on there is there for a reason. I can go through everything one by one and explain why it's there if you want to later.
> 
> My vet told us that there isn't much difference between OFA Preliminary and OFA final hip/elbow scores and that breeding your dogs with the preliminary reports would be acceptable. We tested all of our dogs with their hips, elbows, eyes (CERF) and heart before we bred. Our Amalie had puppies when she was 2 years and 2 months old. Our Kati will be having puppies when she is 2 years and 1 week old. Victoria was the only one to have puppies before she was 2 years old. She was 18 months old when she had her litter and produced extremely healthy puppies.
> 
> We have decided to go with the BVA b/c we like the hip scheme better (more accurate, scores individual hips separately) We have have sent in our radiographs to BVA but it takes a few months to receive them back and I will post it on our website once they come back.
> 
> My beliefs that the English/European Golden is healthier than American Goldens is THE reason why we chose to breed them over Americans. American Eskimos are a wonderful breed but is not very friendly to strangers which is a big deal in our ministry. We love the Golden Retriever temperament but didn't want to deal with all the health difficulties. On our "The English Golden Retriever" webpage we list two FACTUAL articles (from the GRCA and the KC) that prove English Goldens have a much lower chance of cancer and live longer. You can read the articles here:
> http://www.recherchegoldens.com/GRCA Health Survey.pdf
> http://www.recherchegoldens.com/hsgoldenretriever-1.pdf
> 
> I know that me stating this is unpopular especially to American Golden Retriever breeders but it is backed up by fact and not fear.
> 
> Also, we decided to use the term "English Creme Golden Retriever" simply because that is how most people describe our type of dog. I didn't make up the name nor do I much like the name but I understand that is the name most people use to describe our type of dog. Read the beginning of my webpage "The English Golden Retriever" and I describe the name and the color issue. We have chosen (just because of personal taste) that we do like the lighter colored Goldens. Since we do not have a massive operation, we decided to limit ourselves to only the "cream" colored Goldens.
> 
> Also, as you well know, our dogs are from Europe (Romania, Serbia, Slovakia and Hungary) and not from England. My wife loves French and speaks french very fluently. We named our kennel after the French word "Recherche" meaning sought out, exotic or choice. Therefore, to try to keep the European/French theme we decide to use the word creme instead of cream and put in the accent marks whenever I remembered. I don't understand why that is such a big deal to so many people.
> 
> Despite being beat-down in this thread, I am thankful I discovered it. I really tried to do everything as ethical as I knew how. I have edited my website extensively and will continue to do so. I have changed several things after reading your posts because you did point out some inconsistency and confusing statements on my website. I am truly sorry for that and should have been more careful before putting that on my website. I guess the moral of the story is to start out small and only put on your website what you are 100% confident of.
> 
> I can spend a long time replying to individual post and may do that if you request of me. Please ask and I would love to reply.


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## Prism Goldens

Buyer beware. Nothing good going on @ Recherche.


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## peekaboo!

You’re under attack. This is so unfair. Myself and my good friend Lori have had good experiences with you. You charge a lot and I believe the trainers are working 24:7 so expect training fees. Not allowing buyers to breed shows you have a conscience and are avoiding backyard breeders. You expect buyers to continue to care well for your dog and recommend dietary vitamins: so what? Even if you get a commission you wouldn’t recommend a bad supplement or food. In fact, it’s ever changing and you are keeping up with changes and recommendations. Any good breeder is a source of information. Thank you. You may not be showing; or, you may be showing the dogs the important thing is you are breeding from champions and your dogs are very sociable. Perhaps that’s your emphasis: as you website claims, great pets that are socialized and house friendly. You don’t want your dogs to end up in the hands of people related to the buyer: why would you?! I expect because your contract is with the buyer. The next owner could be a nightmare. Even in a rescue you have to prove you are worthy to have a dog. Your contract seemed reasonable to me. Although my puppy was returned, you found him an excellent home and discovered what I missed: (a grain intolerance I suspect). I only hope that if I ever buy another from you that you will recognize my training experience and good intentions of providing service dogs (nonprofit) and be a great resource for questions and answers since you know your dogs best. ***. Great marketing skills btw and keep up the great work!


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## Prism Goldens

I suspect you and your good friend Lori have no idea what makes a good breeding. 
Enough said- everything posted in this thread by breed experts is true of Recherche, who are not breed experts but are HVb/BYB. There are zero AKC CH in their program and only rarely are there full Code of Ethics clearances, and those are done after breeding from. Sorry for you- that koolade must have been tasty.


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## cwag

peekaboo! said:


> Although my puppy was returned, you found him an excellent home and discovered what I missed: (a grain intolerance I suspect). I only hope that if I ever buy another from you that you will recognize my training experience and good intentions of providing service dogs (nonprofit) and be a great resource for questions and answers since you know your dogs best. ***. Great marketing skills btw and keep up the great work!


You had to return your puppy but you still think they are great? They do not follow the GRCA Code of Ethics for breeders. Marketing skills are great breeding ethics are not impressive to me.


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## Brad hccmil

GoldenAlexis said:


> Is anyone familiar with this breeder of English/British goldens?


I am. We have had two “english creams” from recherche.
The first one was beautiful and smart but had to have a knee replaced at one year old. By the time he was three he had developed gut issues, so the vet recommended we take him off the food that had been recommended from the breeder to get his blood and gut back. However, he got progressively sicker and did not make it to his fourth birthday. We spent over 16k dollars with tests and Specialists in trying to get him better. We got a second puppy that was delivered. We immediately had health concerns and after 4 months of different antibiotics and mounting bills not covered by insurance, he is still sick and again on a special diet recommended by a veterinarian. The breeders response was that no other puppies in his litter experienced the same condition.
Again, he is cute and smart. We wanted so much for this to be a positive experience.


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## peekaboo!

Prism Goldens said:


> I suspect you and your good friend Lori have no idea what makes a good breeding.
> Enough said- everything posted in this thread by breed experts is true of Recherche, who are not breed experts but are HVb/BYB. There are zero AKC CH in their program and only rarely are there full Code of Ethics clearances, and those are done after breeding from. Sorry for you- that koolade must have been tasty.


no need to be rude. Don’t know what all these mean:Hvb/bun and ch. please educate me to I can drink your kook aide. Lol


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## peekaboo!

Brad hccmil said:


> I am. We have had two “english creams” from recherche.
> The first one was beautiful and smart but had to have a knee replaced at one year old. By the time he was three he had developed gut issues, so the vet recommended we take him off the food that had been recommended from the breeder to get his blood and gut back. However, he got progressively sicker and did not make it to his fourth birthday. We spent over 16k dollars with tests and Specialists in trying to get him better. We got a second puppy that was delivered. We immediately had health concerns and after 4 months of different antibiotics and mounting bills not covered by insurance, he is still sick and again on a special diet recommended by a veterinarian. The breeders response was that no other puppies in his litter experienced the same condition.
> Again, he is cute and smart. We wanted so much for this to be a positive experience.


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## peekaboo!

My puppy from there had digestive issues and I returned him after months of veterinary visits. Was told they put him on a new diet and no problems. Said he was sold to a great home (the Detroit Pistons owner. Hope so.).
[QUOTE="cwag, post:


You had to return your puppy but you still think they are great? They do not follow the GRCA Code of Ethics for breeders. Marketing skills are great breeding ethics are not impressive to me.
[/QUOTE]


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## peekaboo!

peekaboo! said:


> My puppy from there had digestive issues and I returned him after months of veterinary visits. Was told they put him on a new diet and no problems. Said he was sold to a great home (the Detroit Pistons owner. Hope so.).
> 
> 
> cwag said:
> 
> 
> 
> You had to return your puppy but you still think they are great? They do not follow the GRCA Code of Ethics for breeders. Marketing skills are great breeding ethics are not impressive to me.
> 
> 
> 
> They told me they changed his diet (? May have been grain intolerant?). Sold him to the Pistons owner as the puppy was very well trained and had a great temperament. They probably would’ve returned him to me but I had moved on. They were nice to work with. The dog was calm and sociable. Everything in life doesn’t go as hoped. They handled the situation well. I am not a breeding expert. I’m a trainer. Please stop bashing me. You don’t know everything and there’s too much to say. So simply: yes: I think they have good intentions and not all dogs are perfect all the time. They handled it well.
Click to expand...


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## peekaboo!

Brad, mine had digestive issues too. Not sure why. Is that a breeding problem? Idk?


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## peekaboo!

peekaboo! said:


> no need to be rude. Don’t know what all these mean:Hvb/bun and ch. please educate me to I can drink your kook aide. Lol


Oops byb


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## Prism Goldens

BYB- backyard breeder. In this case, not literal (since he has a 250k breeding building on site) but the method used, which is usually dog of his own bred to his own bitch with no knowledge of background/structural needs
HVB- high volume breeder. This is absolute in his case.

Believing he is a 'good and ethical breeder' is what's kooky. I cannot fathom supporting someone who cranks out health issues and simply because they'd take back your dog (and re-sell it for even more I'd imagine)is something I cannot understand. Perhaps you can outline why you believe this is an ethical breeder. The Code of Ethics are far from this program.


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## nolefan

peekaboo! said:


> You’re under attack. This is so unfair. Myself and my good friend Lori have had good experiences with you. You charge a lot and I believe the trainers are working 24:7 so expect training fees. Not allowing buyers to breed shows you have a conscience and are avoiding backyard breeders. You expect buyers to continue to care well for your dog and recommend dietary vitamins: so what? .....I only hope that if I ever buy another from you that you will recognize my training experience and good intentions of providing service dogs (nonprofit) and be a great resource for questions and answers since you know your dogs best. ***. Great marketing skills btw and keep up the great work!


If you're truly hoping to provide service dogs to people at no profit, I encourage you to study every inch of the Golden Retriever Club of America website and the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals website to learn as much as possible about health issues in Golden Retrievers. What books have you read so far on Golden Retrievers? There are several recommendations on this forum that may help you understand how badly you have been taken advantage of by the owner of Recherche.


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## FurdogDad

peekaboo! said:


> My puppy from there had digestive issues and I returned him after months of veterinary visits. Was told they put him on a new diet and no problems. Said he was sold to a great home (the Detroit Pistons owner. Hope so.).
> [QUOTE="cwag, post:
> 
> 
> You had to return your puppy but you still think they are great? They do not follow the GRCA Code of Ethics for breeders. Marketing skills are great breeding ethics are not impressive to me.


[/QUOTE]
You don't know what HVB, BYB or CH mean? Do you know what BS means? Because I'm pretty sure that's what the story the breeder fed you is. Your vet wasn't smart enough to tell you to try a different diet for months but the breeder immediately changed the puppy's diet, miraculously cured it and sold it to the owner of the Detroit Pistons?.....WOW!!


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## peekaboo!

You don't know what HVB, BYB or CH mean? Do you know what BS means? Because I'm pretty sure that's what the story the breeder fed you is. Your vet wasn't smart enough to tell you to try a different diet for months but the breeder immediately changed the puppy's diet, miraculously cured it and sold it to the owner of the Detroit Pistons?.....WOW!!
[/QUOTE]
Like I said: there’s too much to text. You don’t know the entire story. Not training them anymore. Have a nice time here folks. Be kind to one another, ok I get this abbreviations: of course. Good by. They have good trading in place. Clicker and positive reinforcement. Signing off.


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## FurdogDad

Oh, I see what you mean.....thousands of dollars of good clicker training definitely overrides concerns about genetic health issues.


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## Selkie

peekaboo! said:


> Brad, mine had digestive issues too. Not sure why. Is that a breeding problem? Idk?


So now we have heard from you that your dog had a digestive issue. Poor Brad had a dog from Recherche die younger than 4 of complications related to digestive issues after also needing a knee replacement before it was even full grown, and his second dog from them also has digestive issues. You ask if this is a breeding problem. All Prism is trying to tell you is that yes, these are breeding problems. Knowing how to breed ethically is not difficult (though following THROUGH is), the GRCA provides a list for what is expected. Recherche WILLFULLY does not follow it, we know they are aware of it because they were told about it right here. "Put him on a new diet and no problems"? It is a problem that they could not eat the diet you were feeding them, assuming it was a good one. And a problem that probably has a genetic component and could be avoided if they were more careful selecting breeding pairs. Prism could tell us, but I would imagine that most ethical breeders, if they had three puppies in close succession that had digestive issues, would probably do a careful evaluation of their breeding practices and breeding stock to determine if there is a pattern. I bet Recherche didn't do that.

If you are wanting to provide service dogs, I echo Nolefan. I really really hope that you will do extensive research on the breed and make careful choices as to what breeder you purchase from. Training a service dog is a lot of work and takes a lot of time, and those they serve NEED them to be healthy, happy and as long-lived as possible. I can't even imagine waiting and searching and hoping for a service dog, finally getting one, and having it be too ill to do its job and then die young. The emotional impact of that would be devastating. 

Any dog can develop health issues but you vastly decrease your risk if the parents are sound.

The good news is that a pup from an ethical breeder--which has a greatly increased chance of being healthy and structurally sound--is a FRACTION of the cost of a dog from Recherche.

I'm not a breeder or a training expert. I pulled up some videos on YouTube, read a few books, and am clicker training my puppy at home. I'd put him head to head with Recherche pups the same age confidently. I bet he is JUST as, if not BETTER behaved. And I know his parents were bred ethically according to GRCA's guidance so I can be far more confident that he will be healthy. It isn't hard to clicker train, basically ANYONE can learn how to do it and get started with results in LESS than a few hours. It just takes time. It certainly isn't worth a $10,000-$20,000 mark up.



Brad hccmil said:


> I am. We have had two “english creams” from recherche.
> The first one was beautiful and smart but had to have a knee replaced at one year old. By the time he was three he had developed gut issues, so the vet recommended we take him off the food that had been recommended from the breeder to get his blood and gut back. However, he got progressively sicker and did not make it to his fourth birthday. We spent over 16k dollars with tests and Specialists in trying to get him better. We got a second puppy that was delivered. We immediately had health concerns and after 4 months of different antibiotics and mounting bills not covered by insurance, he is still sick and again on a special diet recommended by a veterinarian. The breeders response was that no other puppies in his litter experienced the same condition.
> Again, he is cute and smart. We wanted so much for this to be a positive experience.



Brad, I am so so sorry you are going through this. Breeders who spend all their time on flashy websites full of misdirection and misinformation that make you feel like you're making a great choice make my blood boil. Maybe if he spent half that time and effort getting his dogs health clearances and logically thinking through his breedings to select for good traits instead of maximum profit per year ..


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## peekaboo!

Prism Goldens said:


> BYB- backyard breeder. In this case, not literal (since he has a 250k breeding building on site) but the method used, which is usually dog of his own bred to his own bitch with no knowledge of background/structural needs
> HVB- high volume breeder. This is absolute in his case.
> 
> Believing he is a 'good and ethical breeder' is what's kooky. I cannot fathom supporting someone who cranks out health issues and simply because they'd take back your dog (and re-sell it for even more I'd imagine)is something I cannot understand. Perhaps you can outline why you believe this is an ethical breeder. The Code of Ethics are far from this program.


I never said he was a good or bad breeder. I said he was easy to work with and the high cost may be due to training. I wish you would lighten up on me. I would like to leave politely and sorry if I ruined anyone's day. You are all in need of better communication and listening skills. I am not a breeder and thank goodness because I could not ever turn out 100% of dogs at 100% perfect like you all expect. Now please excuse me. You are all entitled to hate this breeder and may know what's so terrible about them. You all sound like a lynching mob. I was impressed with the training and the temperament. It was obviously a minor diet issue for the puppy and my vet just kept saying: try cooking chicken and rice which didn't work. I was too stupid to know that dogs can have grain intolerances. Since you are experts in breeding you can discuss that. Good bye. I guess I don't fit in so no need to reply.


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## peekaboo!

FurdogDad said:


> Oh, I see what you mean.....thousands of dollars of good clicker training definitely overrides concerns about genetic health issues.


rude


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## peekaboo!

FurdogDad said:


> Oh, I see what you mean.....thousands of dollars of good clicker training definitely overrides concerns about genetic health issues.


rude


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## peekaboo!

FurdogDad said:


> Oh, I see what you mean.....thousands of dollars of good clicker training definitely overrides concerns about genetic health issues.


rude


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## peekaboo!

FurdogDad said:


> Oh, I see what you mean.....thousands of dollars of good clicker training definitely overrides concerns about genetic health issues.


rude


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## peekaboo!

peekaboo! said:


> You don't know what HVB, BYB or CH mean? Do you know what BS means? Because I'm pretty sure that's what the story the breeder fed you is. Your vet wasn't smart enough to tell you to try a different diet for months but the breeder immediately changed the puppy's diet, miraculously cured it and sold it to the owner of the Detroit Pistons?.....WOW!!


Like I said: there’s too much to text. You don’t know the entire story. Not training them anymore. Have a nice time here folks. Be kind to one another, ok I get this abbreviations: of course. Good by. They have good trading in place. Clicker and positive reinforcement. Signing off.
[/QUOTE]
meant to say good training not trading although I bet he would have given me another dog instead.


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## peekaboo!

Selkie said:


> So now we have heard from you that your dog had a digestive issue. Poor Brad had a dog from Recherche die younger than 4 of complications related to digestive issues after also needing a knee replacement before it was even full grown, and his second dog from them also has digestive issues. You ask if this is a breeding problem. All Prism is trying to tell you is that yes, these are breeding problems. Knowing how to breed ethically is not difficult (though following THROUGH is), the GRCA provides a list for what is expected. Recherche WILLFULLY does not follow it, we know they are aware of it because they were told about it right here. "Put him on a new diet and no problems"? It is a problem that they could not eat the diet you were feeding them, assuming it was a good one. And a problem that probably has a genetic component and could be avoided if they were more careful selecting breeding pairs. Prism could tell us, but I would imagine that most ethical breeders, if they had three puppies in close succession that had digestive issues, would probably do a careful evaluation of their breeding practices and breeding stock to determine if there is a pattern. I bet Recherche didn't do that.
> 
> If you are wanting to provide service dogs, I echo Nolefan. I really really hope that you will do extensive research on the breed and make careful choices as to what breeder you purchase from. Training a service dog is a lot of work and takes a lot of time, and those they serve NEED them to be healthy, happy and as long-lived as possible. I can't even imagine waiting and searching and hoping for a service dog, finally getting one, and having it be too ill to do its job and then die young. The emotional impact of that would be devastating.
> 
> Any dog can develop health issues but you vastly decrease your risk if the parents are sound.
> 
> The good news is that a pup from an ethical breeder--which has a greatly increased chance of being healthy and structurally sound--is a FRACTION of the cost of a dog from Recherche.
> 
> I'm not a breeder or a training expert. I pulled up some videos on YouTube, read a few books, and am clicker training my puppy at home. I'd put him head to head with Recherche pups the same age confidently. I bet he is JUST as, if not BETTER behaved. And I know his parents were bred ethically according to GRCA's guidance so I can be far more confident that he will be healthy. It isn't hard to clicker train, basically ANYONE can learn how to do it and get started with results in LESS than a few hours. It just takes time. It certainly isn't worth a $10,000-$20,000 mark up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brad, I am so so sorry you are going through this. Breeders who spend all their time on flashy websites full of misdirection and misinformation that make you feel like you're making a great choice make my blood boil. Maybe if he spent half that time and effort getting his dogs health clearances and logically thinking through his breedings to select for good traits instead of maximum profit per year ..


I am not training service dogs anymore so relax..


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## Selkie

peekaboo! said:


> I never said he was a good or bad breeder. I said he was easy to work with and the high cost may be due to training.


These are living animals we are talking about. Of course he's easy to work with, you are giving him $10,000+ dollars. I'm not clear how it should at all be a selling point that he is easy to work with at those prices.

I would buy from a breeder who is hard to work with, but has healthy dogs and ethical breeding practices ten million times over before I settled for unethical breeding from someone who is nice to me because I am giving him a ludicrous amount of money. Luckily that isn't a choice I had to make, because there are plenty of ethical breeders out there who are also easy to work with, and charge literally a third of the cost of one of Recherche's cheapest dogs.



peekaboo! said:


> I am not training service dogs anymore so relax..


Okay?



peekaboo! said:


> I only hope that if I ever buy another from you that you will recognize my training experience and good intentions of providing service dogs (nonprofit) and be a great resource for questions and answers since you know your dogs best.


My being relaxed or not is an unnecessary jab from you. My post was not angry or infuriated. If you are reading something other than 'relaxed' into it, that is--again--on you. I find it a little suspicious how defensive you are about this person who you don't even have a dog from anymore because you had to return it due to its health problems.


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## ArkansasGold

Hey guys, this is just a friendly reminder to keep the forum rules in mind when posting.








GRF Board Rules & Registration Agreement


General information about posts/thread and account on GRF This general information statement is to make all members of Golden Retriever Forum aware that we do not delete posts or threads (unless it is unwanted commercial advertising = "Spam"). Please think before you post as anything you post...




www.goldenretrieverforum.com


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## Prism Goldens

peekaboo! said:


> I never said he was a good or bad breeder. I said he was easy to work with and the high cost may be due to training. I wish you would lighten up on me. I would like to leave politely and sorry if I ruined anyone's day. You are all in need of better communication and listening skills. I am not a breeder and thank goodness because I could not ever turn out 100% of dogs at 100% perfect like you all expect. Now please excuse me. You are all entitled to hate this breeder and may know what's so terrible about them. You all sound like a lynching mob. I was impressed with the training and the temperament. It was obviously a minor diet issue for the puppy and my vet just kept saying: try cooking chicken and rice which didn't work. I was too stupid to know that dogs can have grain intolerances. Since you are experts in breeding you can discuss that. Good bye. I guess I don't fit in so no need to reply.


Because people google program names, when someone comes here in support of a known less-than breeder, it is important to reiterate and acknowledge the ongoing problems of that program. It usually makes support poster uncomfortable that their position is not a safe or good one. That's where you are. NO breeder claims perfection- but gosh- the least a breeder can do is two fold- do all the health clearances at an appropriate age, to hopefully not harm the breed in general by producing unhealthy puppies, and secondly, to tell the absolute truth to buyers and charge a fair and reasonable price for what one is selling. I don't hate this man and his wife- but I do hate what he is doing. It's wrong from every possible place and he's doing it with multiple breeds and mixes. Nice or no, there is not one right thing going on there.


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## Ljilly28

My neighbor paid an outrageous amount for one who is easty westy, and too spooked to walk write in our training building like most dogs easily do. She tried to sign up for CGC class, but couldn't take it.


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## Bokeh Girl

nolefan said:


> Well, now it appears RGoldens is also RCavapoos and RCavaliers..... I would love to have Recherche explain why the new dogs are all from eastern european countires too. Maybe because he can't get dogs from reputable American breeders.
> 
> https://trainedcavs.com/our-breeds/
> 
> https://trainedcavs.com/


Hello again,
Thank you for your comments about the expansion of breeds, including Cavaliers.
He is currently advertising a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel with the potential for 6 months of training. The price exceeds USD 30,000. I’ve been studying European lines and health clearances (I’m just an avid amateur who appreciates thoughtful and ethical breeding standards, especially as they pertain to the CKCS. The marketing and profiteering of this kennel leaves me speechless. I am hesitant - and very sad - to state that I now believe this minister’s kennel is a glorified puppy mill. And yes, I have read every single sentence and watched all his videos. He seems to be preying on fearful buyers with limited knowledge of their respective breeds.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni

Bokeh Girl said:


> Hello again,
> Thank you for your comments about the expansion of breeds, including Cavaliers.
> He is currently advertising a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel with the potential for 6 months of training. The price exceeds USD 30,000. I’ve been studying European lines and health clearances (I’m just an avid amateur who appreciates thoughtful and ethical breeding standards, especially as they pertain to the CKCS. The marketing and profiteering of this kennel leaves me speechless. I am hesitant - and very sad - to state that I now believe this minister’s kennel is a glorified puppy mill. And yes, I have read every single sentence and watched all his videos. He seems to be preying on fearful buyers with limited knowledge of their respective breeds.


THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS?????


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## Bokeh Girl

Noreaster said:


> THIRTY THOUSAND DOLLARS?????


I just looked at Recherche Kennel’s site…
The Cavalier King Charles Spaniel female pup; 
(I posted her photo on this forum to illustrate a confirmation flaw commonly called “Clown Face” and her price if she completed 6 months of training = USD 30,000.00)
She is no longer pictured on the site so she’s either been sold or Mr. Hamka removed her after reading this forum.


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## Bokeh Girl

Yes, sad but true…
You’ll find this in the final comments under the thread, “Choosing a Golden Retriever Breeder and Puppy”


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## Bokeh Girl

Hello @peekaboo! 

My intention is not to be hurtful in any way.
I’m just trying to understand what is going on at Recherche. I just learned that the owner has expanded the kennel and it’s huge. He’s also added approximately 7 breeds to the operation. 

My concern is the overwhelming number of litters. I read through everything on the website carefully and just finished reading it all again. I was interested in one of his male pups but gasped at the price ($31,000) which the owner justified because of the 650 hours of training. The owner mentioned that most of the training is ‘potty training’ and the pup walked nicely on a leash, and there was a video of additional commands. The breeder commented over and over again that his dogs were the best to be found anywhere. Also, if a pup’s owner needed to return it, he/she would be reimbursed $7,000.00, the price of the puppy but absolutely no reimbursement for the $24,000 training. May I inquire if you incurred this level of financial loss when you returned your pup?

It sounds like you loved the pup but even though the health issue was easily resolved, you didn’t want the pup anymore. Did Recherche reimburse you for your payment of thousands and thousands of dollars, or just the base price of your puppy?

Something is VERY OFF and this breeder is making millions of dollars off the backs of these dogs. Your positive comments blow my mind. This ENORMOUS operation is producing unhealthy puppies. It smacks of a glorified Puppy Mill.


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## Bokeh Girl

peekaboo! said:


> Like I said: there’s too much to text. You don’t know the entire story. Not training them anymore. Have a nice time here folks. Be kind to one another, ok I get this abbreviations: of course. Good by. They have good trading in place. Clicker and positive reinforcement. Signing off.


meant to say good training not trading although I bet he would have given me another dog instead.
[/QUOTE]

Hi @peekaboo! 

It's obvious that you are feeling angry and perhaps even ‘bullied’ but please don't take these concerns about Recherche personally. We’re all advocates of ethical standards and happy, healthy puppies.

Your quote, “I bet he would have given me another dog instead.” This is the exact policy he describes whenever a dog is returned.
You chose not to receive a replacement puppy and I am wondering why.

I just read Brad’s tragic experience and cannot imagine how devastating it feels.


----------

