# Conformation Show questions...



## Ryley's Dad

1. How old is the puppy before you can definitely determine whether or not he/she is "show quality.. championship material"

2. How much does it cost to hire a professional handler?

3. How long, on average, does it take a dog to become a champion?

4. Where is the best place to go to get an honest opinion on the "show quality" of your dog?

5. Can you take your dog to a show, without entering him/her, just so they can get used to all the hubbub?.... assuming you want to enter him/her at a later show?

6. Is 6 months old the earliest you can enter your dog in a show? Is this calculated on months or weeks (ie. 24 weeks).

7. If you enter your 6 month old puppy, are you probably not going to win anything... except perhaps a puppy class?

8. What is the best class to enter novice dogs in a show? Do you get championship points for these classes?

9. How much does it cost to enter a show?... not counting handling fees.


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## Bender

Usually at 7 weeks an experienced breeder can tell if a dog has show potential or not. That being said, it's quite political so provided the dog doesn't have any major faults most dogs 'can' get a championship. The only question is really how long it'll take, which judges will like the dog better and of course when the dog looks his best. 

Getting a handler to do the work sometimes is in your favor as they can bring out the best in your dog, have all the tools and usually will split travel expenses to take your dog to shows - and they go to smaller shows that you may not want to go to. 

In Canada anyway you can enter 'for exhibition only' and pay a fee to take your dog down for the day, however many people just take their dogs down with them (not allowed mind you). It's not closely checked and usually not a problem unless your dog is out of control, acting up or not looking like a purebred. It's considered by the date, so six months to the birthdate they are six months.

Your breeder would be the one to talk to, or if you want another opinion I can give you a few names of locals. They would have the best idea of what to enter but it's usually puppy classes to start out, to get them experienced. But to show a dog you usually have to work with the handler or someone with experience to get your dog ready, not to fat, not too thin, no collar necklines....

Bender as an example of 'how long'.... when she was young, really did not do much at all, just got dumped most of the time. When she was a few years older, placed with me showing her (really!) and got a few points, then the breeder took her up to Grand Prairie to a show for the weekend, took breed and second in group to get the rest of her points she needed to finish in one weekend. Of course it doesn't always happen like that and I could have entered her in a ton of shows up till that point and done nothing or done one point at a time.

Storee, who knows. Right now she's looking like she's part lab, she has very little hair/feathering but really looks 'good' because her topline is so smooth without the usual flippies all over the place. :doh:

Lana


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## Megora

I didn't look at the CKC website, but on the AKC website there is a page with starter info for people interested in getting into conformation. And this page includes links to local handlers w/webpages with their rates. For example: http://www.bluerosekennels.com/Blueroserates.pdf

Might want to contact your breeder and your local golden club for references. With handlers you might have to send your golden out with the handler, so you want to go with somebody you trust will take good care of your golden. <- I know somebody who is going to be sending her golden down to Florida soon to hopefully get her CH. She's not thrilled about sending her out, but it will cost less than if she herself were handling and traveling around to all the different shows.


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## Ljilly28

These are really hard questions- here is my attempt as a novice:

1)Many pups have a fault or two that a good show handler can deal with, but some puppies have deal breakers that make them pets only from the getgo. (As for the ones that will be specials and the greatest champions,lol, I have no idea when you know that). Conventional wisdom says to look hard at the pup at 8 weeks and then it will be xyz months before he/she develops back into that quality. Some faults like gay tails, lack of bone, poor heads, and missing teeth are easy to see; others, like straight upper arms drive the people with a great eye for goldens nuts, but not all judges penalize. I think that by 18 months you know for sure with most girls, and two for boys who are on the line between pet and show? Many, you can say no way much earlier. Some people say their lines develop late and some say they bloom early- the breeder knows best what age to look. 

2) Sadly expensive, especially for the single dog owner. I have two rate sheets on my fridge, and it hurts. I am figuring 85 -100 dollars a show day, plus entry fees in my mental math.

3) My neighbor finished one of her boys from the 12-18 puppy class lickity split but spent two years persistently chipping away at his brother's championship. I think it can vary widely. A pro handler might hand off your dog to an assistant, while she shows her special etc. There are many factors in how long your dog takes to finish, including if he has a problem like a missing tooth or is she is a total knockout perfectly groomed and trained to perfection. 

4) Too hard a question. I have trouble with this too. 

5_ It is against the rules, but people do it all the time. Sometimes you have to show your armband or proof of entry to someone, but usually not by late morning. 

6&7&8- Once in a while, people do win from the 6-9 or 9-12 puppy classes. A novice dog can win, but the open dogs and specials are very mature.

7) Check InfoDog.com for prices to enter


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## Megora

> 5_ It is against the rules, but people do it all the time. Sometimes you have to show your armband or proof of entry to someone, but usually not by late morning.


It also depends on the shows.  

Outdoor shows tend to be looser. I'm a bit more cautious about indoor shows, especially those that you have to check in at the door (like at expo centers). There are two indoor shows/locations where I would never try sneaking a dog in. The DKC Cobo Show (Benched) would obviously be one.

One other thing that probably should be obvious, but check your papers to make sure you have full registration.


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## Kmullen

I am new to all of this also. My dog has been in one show from the 12 to 18 month old class and I hired a handler. There is another show coming up in December and I will hire a handler for that. I teach and coach sports...so it really hard to show during the week  The beginning of January I am sending her to Florida with the breeder and My dog's sire family. They are going to train her a little more and enter her in shows in FL. There are just not enough shows in MS. 
As to bringing your dog to the dogs shows...I know most will not allow that. Try to get with a local kennel club or two. I know we had a "fun" match back in early August. I handled her then. It was a good experience. I paid $65 a show for my handler back in September plus the grooming cost. The one that will be handling her in December is $75. It does add up plus the entry fees. A puppy from 6-9 months can win and earn points. I know one of the de la vega orange...something "michael" this past weekend one winners dog and best of winners. He earned 3 points. Just because you win a class does not mean you earn points. Hope this helps


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## GoldenSail

Ryley's Dad said:


> 1. How old is the puppy before you can definitely determine whether or not he/she is "show quality.. championship material"
> 
> 2. How much does it cost to hire a professional handler?
> 
> 3. How long, on average, does it take a dog to become a champion?
> 
> 4. Where is the best place to go to get an honest opinion on the "show quality" of your dog?
> 
> 5. Can you take your dog to a show, without entering him/her, just so they can get used to all the hubbub?.... assuming you want to enter him/her at a later show?
> 
> 6. Is 6 months old the earliest you can enter your dog in a show? Is this calculated on months or weeks (ie. 24 weeks).
> 
> 7. If you enter your 6 month old puppy, are you probably not going to win anything... except perhaps a puppy class?
> 
> 8. What is the best class to enter novice dogs in a show? Do you get championship points for these classes?
> 
> 9. How much does it cost to enter a show?... not counting handling fees.


My understanding is that it is pretty different in Canada then here in the states. But, here are my novice and learning thoughts:

1. As others said, evaluations are roughly between 6-8 weeks because supposedly what they look like then is what they will mature to as an adult. When do you know your dog is done growing? Hard to say, look at the lines. Mine comes from slow maturing lines and I have been told to shoot around the age of 3. At 18 months and having a bitch, she is not anywhere close to being done. My breeder doesn't really show any of her dogs much before the age of 2, and Scout's mom didn't finish until the age of 4 yet she picked up a 5pt major when she was ready.

2. I have no idea. I plan on going the owner-handler route myself.

3. It depends  Scout has an ancestor that was finished at 10 months owner-handled!

4. Like ljilly said, hard to say. Honestly, the people that are most willing to give you feedback on your dog seem to be the ones who don't give good, solid feedback. (LOL, someone told me they loved that my dog was not short coupled)

5. In AKC--no. You may not get caught at an outdoor show, but it isn't technically allowed. Although you will find exhibitors with dogs obviously not entered (such as a litter of pups) on the grounds.

6. 6 months in AKC, though I hear they are considering starting an even younger class which would be cheaper but not eligible for points.

7. Most people tell me that getting points from the puppy class is rare.

8. I think it depends on your area and preference. Mine just aged out of 12-18 and I chose to enter her in Open even though she isn't mature yet because I knew the show would be small and I didn't want to be in a ring alone. Others like that so they can get double the ring time and go in for Winner's.

9. Around $25 here, less for puppies and bred-by.


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## hotel4dogs

It is very different between the US (AKC) and Canada (CKC), so I think the 2 people who asked the questions need to look at where the answers are coming from.
I don't know about the CKC, so I'll only address the AKC....
1. You can get a pretty good idea at exactly 8 weeks old, which is why they do litter evaluations at that age.
2. Depends, but figure $75-100 per show, plus their travel expenses as an average.
3. Varies wildly depending on the quality of the dog and your willingness to travel to shows or send your dog out with the handler. Some dogs finish in a weekend of shows (especially in Canada where they don't require the huge numbers of dogs that we need in AKC) whereas others try for several years and never do finish the CH.
4. Here in the US, the best place to get an honest opinion of your dog is to go to the really big name handlers of goldens and ask them, when they have a minute, to take a look at your dog and let you know what they think. Of course it's best if you're also considering hiring them. Most of them have a full string of goldens already, and aren't looking to solicit your business but rather put you on their waiting list for when they have an opening in the class you will be showing in. They will be honest with you regarding your chances in the ring, at least that's what I've found. As one told me, "we have a reputation to uphold, we don't take just any dog".
5. In AKC, no
6. In AKC, currently 6 months although that may change.
7. In a small show, you may get a point out of the puppy class in AKC, but in large shows (for example, majors, where we need to beat 21 dogs) it's pretty unusual that your 6 month old puppy will be the best dog there, competing against 20 dogs over the age of 2. It can happen, but it's not common.
8. Depends on the show and the judge. A lot of judges won't look at anything but "open" or "bred-by" here in the US, so people will enter dogs 12-18 months in Open rather than 12-18 months. Sometimes if Open is going to be a big class (we've been in a bunch with 30 or more in Open), people will enter a small class hoping to win that class and get a better look when the judge picks the winners dog.
9. entry fees here are in the $27-30 range normally


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## Sunkota

I can only weigh in on AKC -
1) I evaluate pups at 7-8 weeks and determine if they have "show potential". As to when you can tell if they are championship material that may depend on the breeding (some mature earlier than others) but usually around a year I know whether they will make it or not.

2) In the US professional handlers average around $100 per show, costs vary with expenses.

3) Average for a good dog is probably 3-4 months. Obviously a dog can finish in 3 shows (3 - 5 pt majors) but that is rare.

4) Honest opinion?? First - make sure you really want an honest opinion. I would start with your breeder. Some breeders are kennel blind and want every pup in the show ring, some are realistic and don't want a dog out unless they are good quality. Also a handler that handles Goldens (and has plenty so is not saying it to get your dog). Or you can do the "10 show rule" - enter 10 shows and see how you do.

5. In the US, unentered dogs are not allowed on the show grounds but everyone does it. Just make sure your dog is ready (well behaved, walks on a leash) and keep him out of other dog's spaces.

6) At this time 6 months is the earliest but matches have a 3-6 month class. If you can find a handling class that accepts pups do it.

7) I have seen 6 month old pups win majors but that is rare. Enter shows but don't over do it - you can burn a pup out and they will begin to hate showing.

8) I like to enter the age appropriate class up to 18 months (6-9, 9-12, 12-18). The 12-18 class is one of my favorites. Some judges won't look at anything but Open (check infodog to see what judges tend to do) but many will point from 12-18. I have finished many from that class. On the other hand, one dog sired by my dog looked very mature at a year so I urged them to put him in Open (he just looked to big and mature next to the others in 12-18.) He finished quickly, before he was 18 months, from Open.

9) Entry fees vary with the show. Some clubs offer reduced entry for puppy classes. I usually look for those if I am just taking the pup for experience.


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## Ryley's Dad

Gee everyone... thanks for all the very helpful information! I really appreciate it and have learned a lot. I have also learned that "show business" can be a very expensive proposition... :uhoh:

Not sure how some of you guys can afford it... particularly if you have a professional handler show your dog. $100 per show and I assume that means $100 per day if its a 3 day show... so thats $300 for the weekend plus travel expenses.

My breeder, Wendy Hamilton-Petkau of Auburmist Golden Retrievers seems to have her primary dog "Tim" aka Auburmnist Special Blend, entered in shows almost every weekend. Tim is the top rated GR in Canada right now.
Golden Retriever Rankings 2010

Even if Ryley turns out to be "show quality" I think this showing could be way to pricey for me.... as I would have to hire a handler (I just wouldn't feel comfortable showing the dog myself... being absolutely totally new to the game). Plus I HATE wearing a suit.. :yuck:

As for determining the show quality of a dog... I went to a major show here in Calgary last August and to tell the truth ALL the dogs looked beautiful... just different. To me it was like watching a beauty pagent... all the girls look great, its just personal preference on who you want to win because you like blondes the best or you like short girls over tall ones, etc.

My breeder (Wendy) also did an evaluation of all her pups before they left home at 8 weeks (testing and physical evaluation). She said that Ryley had potential but he wasn't her #1 choice. To me, all the pups looked EXACTLY the same other than some were bigger than others and some were more aggressive, friendlier, or had more energy than others. But I guess she would know as she is a certified GR judge.... but as I said, I couldn't really see any difference physically, other than size, between all the pups.


I will really have to think about this. I can see why kennels do this as its great for their reputation to have a top ranking dog in their kennel, plus I assume there is a payback financially... but I really don't see the upside for Joe Blow ordinary dog owner to do this multiple show campaign to get the dog his/her championship. Sounds like we are talking a lot of money here to get a championship... unless the dog is so exceptional that he can do this all in one weekend.


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## GoldenSail

Ryley's Dad said:


> I will really have to think about this. I can see why kennels do this as its great for their reputation to have a top ranking dog in their kennel, plus I assume there is a payback financially... but I really don't see the upside for Joe Blow ordinary dog owner to do this multiple show campaign to get the dog his/her championship. Sounds like we are talking a lot of money here to get a championship... unless the dog is so exceptional that he can do this all in one weekend.


I do it because it is fun--another reason why I intend (and have so far) to owner handle. I want to be the one that gets the ribbon from the judge, I want to be the one that put forth the effort into creating and presenting a beautiful dog (ok,other than grooming creating credit goes to her breeder  ) 

While I would be thrilled if my dog could finish in a weekend, a part of me would be disappointed if it was that easy


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## Bender

It is a bragging thing too, as well as good socialization for your pup to go travel and get shown. In some cases the dog doesn't get a lot of socializing and is just tossed in the ring and taken back to the crate, but I did MILES one weekend with a hyped golden boy who was being shown, so he wasn't bouncing so much in the ring. We went shopping, and more shopping, and up and down the ramps, past people, past kids, outisde, back inside...... dog got a lot of exposure to new stuff that weekend.

Best thing to do if you want to try it out is to ask Wendy what she thinks, if he'd do anything at this age or not. It might be a while before he does grow up enough too. In the meantime there's obedience, rally, agility..... all much more fun stuff!

Lana


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## cubbysan

I never knew that it was against the rules to bring a non-exhibited dog to the shows.

I have done it for years, and nobody ever questioned me. I always thought it was great for socializing a younger dog.


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## Ljilly28

cubbysan said:


> I never knew that it was against the rules to bring a non-exhibited dog to the shows.
> 
> I have done it for years, and nobody ever questioned me. I always thought it was great for socializing a younger dog.


Even though it's probably wrong to write this, there is a double standard that is actually good and helpful. The general public can't bring unentered dogs, but experienced exhibitors can. Seems to work itself out. . .


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## sterregold

From the Canadian perspective:

1. & 4. Your breeder is going to be the best assor of that--they know their bloodlines and how they mature. That said, an experienced pro handler who shows a lot of Goldens will also be able to tell you whether the dog would finish quickly or not. Out west Shannon Scheer might be one to ask.

2. Depends on the handler! It can be $60 and up. Many of the top handlers also have bonuses worked into their rate scale for things like Group placements.

3. Some dogs finish in a weekend, and others can sit on 9 points for months! My boy got 8 points in 2 weekends as an 11 month old (a 5 pt BOB over specials, and then a 3 pt BOW), and then proceeded to get 14 RWD placements over the next 14 months until we finally got those last two points! It was admittedly partially due to my novice handling mistakes, but it was still frustrating as hell to be oh so close so often!

5. At outdoor shows in the summer you can usually get away with bringing an unentered dog so long as you don't have them sitting ringside under the tent! If you want them to go to a show in the winter to start getting used to the show environment then the best thing to do is enter as exhibition only so you don't get to the show and get turned away. In the CKC there is now a special exhibition class for pups 3-6 months of age precisely for this.

6. Six months as of their day of birth is the ealiest they can be entered in a licensed show. Before that however there are Sanction Matches which are practice shows designed to help young dogs get ring ready in a show-like atmosphere.

7. Yes, winning the puppy class is the most you should expect, but I have seen many puppies take the points up here. Our shows tend to be smaller, which means there may not be as much competition present in the adult classes, giving a nice puppy a real shot at the points. Like I said, my older boy got a BOB at 11mos. (That said, personally, being able to get a CH on a puppy is one thing I would like to see changed, as I know of dogs that grew out of standard at maturity, and would be disqualified if they went in the ring now. I would like to see a requirement that some of the points must come after 1 year old, or that there be a year between first points and last as FCI requires.)

8. In a CKC show only the dog awarded winners gets points. The first place dog in each class is eligible to compete for those points. The best class for a puppy is in the puppy classes, as most judges will tolerate more baby shenanigans there. 

9. Entry fees in Canada are going up! The CKC increased its recording fees this year, and a number of provinces introduced HST which have both impacted entry fees. In Ontario we are now routinely seeing $28/dog/class.


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## diana_D

a FCI point of view  

1. How old is the puppy before you can definitely determine whether or not he/she is "show quality.. championship material"
Pups are evaluated at 6,7,8 weeks. But things don't always turn out as expected, sometimes there are pleasant surprises, sometimes they are not show quality as predicted...


2. How much does it cost to hire a professional handler?
I have absolutely no idea, in Europe most people show their own dogs. 

3. How long, on average, does it take a dog to become a champion?
It depends...on the number of shows you enter, on judges (some might not like a type and prefer another). Lack of experience has a lot to do with this, too, in case owner has his/her first show dog. 

4. Where is the best place to go to get an honest opinion on the "show quality" of your dog?
A breeder or a judge with great knowledge of the breed. Judges can be asked at the end of a show. You must learn yourself because you must have a very critical eye when it comes to standard. 

5. Can you take your dog to a show, without entering him/her, just so they can get used to all the hubbub?.... assuming you want to enter him/her at a later show?
The regulations forbid this. But as long as you follow the show etiquette I don't see a problem. 

6. Is 6 months old the earliest you can enter your dog in a show? Is this calculated on months or weeks (ie. 24 weeks).
Here babies can be entered from 3 to 6 months, but titles they get are not counting towards anything. It's great for socialization though. Then puppy class from 6-9 months, the same as baby class. Then junior class 9-18 months. JCh title cannot count when entering the dog in champion class. 

7. If you enter your 6 month old puppy, are you probably not going to win anything... except perhaps a puppy class?
You can win baby/puppy BIS  

8. What is the best class to enter novice dogs in a show? Do you get championship points for these classes?
Intermediate for dogs 15 months +, same for Open Class. Working and Champion classes must come with extra proof of working exam or champion diploma. All CACs count towards the Ch title, from Intermediate class on. 


9. How much does it cost to enter a show?... not counting handling fees.
It depends on the shows, some are more expensive, some are cheap  CAC shows in Romania tend to be slightly cheaper then CACIB shows. But apart from the entry fee , the cost of showing is mainly high due to transport and hotel.


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## diana_D

Ljilly28 said:


> Even though it's probably wrong to write this, there is a double standard that is actually good and helpful. The general public can't bring unentered dogs, but experienced exhibitors can. Seems to work itself out. . .


As long as the owner of the dog realizes that is not the time for play with other dogs (some people told me "Oh, cool, you go to a show, I will bring my dog and they can play together" ahem, suuuure) and doesn't try to get in the way I have no problem with that. 

What really bothers me is when, right before entering the ring, someone comes and pets my dog. Hello! I spent countless hours trying to make my dog look great, and I don't need someone to ruin all that hard work. It happened at the club show, and I bit my tongue not to scream. Our number was being called as it happened. It was a kid who did that. I really wish visitors understood how important this is for us and they should try not to interfere with our hard work. And I knew I was with World Junior Champion in the ring, so that came really at the right time  

I think people should always ask permission to pet dogs, should ask when it is ok to have a conversation (some want to talk when you groom and focus on the dog) 

This is not addressed towards anyone in this topic, btw  I just remembered that and I needed to vent


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## Ryley's Dad

diana_D said:


> As long as the owner of the dog realizes that is not the time for play with other dogs (some people told me "Oh, cool, you go to a show, I will bring my dog and they can play together" ahem, suuuure) and doesn't try to get in the way I have no problem with that.
> 
> What really bothers me is when, right before entering the ring, someone comes and pets my dog. Hello! I spent countless hours trying to make my dog look great, and I don't need someone to ruin all that hard work. It happened at the club show, and I bit my tongue not to scream. Our number was being called as it happened. It was a kid who did that. I really wish visitors understood how important this is for us and they should try not to interfere with our hard work. And I knew I was with World Junior Champion in the ring, so that came really at the right time
> 
> I think people should always ask permission to pet dogs, should ask when it is ok to have a conversation (some want to talk when you groom and focus on the dog)
> 
> This is not addressed towards anyone in this topic, btw  I just remembered that and I needed to vent


Excellent comments! I went to my first show last August and really wasn't sure what was acceptable behavior re the dogs and their handlers.

They should print a hand-out (or maybe they did and I just never received one) on what is acceptable behavior if you are a spectator.

Something like this should be given out to every spectator who comes through the doors or gates.


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## diana_D

One more thing, be very careful when you walk your dog, some dogs are not friendly at all, and one nearly jumped all over us as we were approaching the ring. That dog was disqualified for aggression by the judge and was standing near the ring anyhow. Since then I am paranoid about big dogs(certain breeds especially) even at shows. This is an isolated incident, but we need to be careful. Better safe than sorry.


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## diana_D

Ryley's Dad said:


> Excellent comments! I went to my first show last August and really wasn't sure what was acceptable behavior re the dogs and their handlers.
> 
> They should print a hand-out (or maybe they did and I just never received one) on what is acceptable behavior if you are a spectator.
> 
> Something like this should be given out to every spectator who comes through the doors or gates.


Glad you found them useful  

In my case, I spend long hours (starting from 2 days before the show) on grooming and making the fur on topline look straight. Emma has very wavy fur on topline and it could fool the eye into thinking she does not have a proper topline. Imagine my joy when that kid "brushed" the fur all over the place...


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## HiTideGoldens

Ryley's Dad said:


> Excellent comments! I went to my first show last August and really wasn't sure what was acceptable behavior re the dogs and their handlers.
> 
> They should print a hand-out (or maybe they did and I just never received one) on what is acceptable behavior if you are a spectator.
> 
> Something like this should be given out to every spectator who comes through the doors or gates.


The easiest thing to do re: acceptable behavior is find out when the goldens are showing that day and save any talking to handlers/breeders/owners until after they're done. And don't touch the dogs before they go in the ring! LOL

If you get there early and the ring-time is in the afternoon, you may be able to catch handlers/owners taking their time with grooming and chat with them. Generally though, the handlers have their own schedule worked out and if they are distracted it can throw them off. Particularly if they show other breeds as well. Additionally, and this is a selfish comment but definitely something to consider, you don't want to tick off the owners of the client dogs (like myself) by distracting the handler from the task at hand. But most people are very friendly and if they're short on time will likely tell you to come back after the goldens are done.


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## diana_D

Here usually Golden people hang out together so it is easy for people to say hi to us. That's the great part of showing - we catch up with each other and chat a lot. But when we need to get ready, we help each other and we're in a hurry- we keep conversation to minimum and focus on dogs. Even if I only show my girl, I always help them, and they help me too. Last shows I groomed 3 other dogs, and I am only sorry I discovered a half-sibling of my Emma, totally ungroomed but it was too late to help. I wish the owner came to us, all he had to do was ask for help.


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