# Oh joy! White Oak Golden Retrievers has a new litter on the way...



## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Let's keep this bumped up, if we can...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Thanks for doing all the research and legwork to pull out the verifiable information that shows exactly how irresponsible these breeders are. (bump)


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

This just drives me crazy! I cannot believe these people.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

Can't believe that all those poor dogs and the families that get them. This breeder needs to have all her dogs taken off her and desexed.


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

I inquired about some AKC GR pups in my area before I found Bailey. It was a litter of 12 pups. When I emailed, their response was: "We have one pup left, and she's POL so we want more $$ than our ad stated" I replied back with, "Well, what makes you think she's the POL?" His response was: "She's the biggest." ROFLMAO Needless to say...I RAN away! :doh:

ETA: It was not the breeder mentioned in this OP.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kateann1201 said:


> I inquired about some AKC GR pups in my area before I found Bailey. It was a litter of 12 pups. When I emailed, their response was: "We have one pup left, and she's POL so we want more $$ than our ad stated" I replied back with, "Well, what makes you think she's the POL?" His response was: "She's the biggest." ROFLMAO Needless to say...I RAN away! :doh:
> 
> ETA: It was not the breeder mentioned in this OP.


Umm...doesn't the origin of the phrase "pick of the litter" imply that it's the kind of dog you would pick first? Therefore, the last dog left is, um, not the pick.


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Umm...doesn't the origin of the phrase "pick of the litter" imply that it's the kind of dog you would pick first? Therefore, the last dog left is, um, not the pick.


Of course! I was so floored by him telling me that she was the LAST pup, that I was dying to know what made him think she was the "POL." I honest-to-God was cracking up when I read his email. I couldn't even respond after that. Clearly he was a re-re.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Morgan was POL... doesn't say a lot in my book, sorry !!!


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

So I peeked at White Oaks and I read this as I was skimming: *The daughter of Mercy and Diesel. Her sire will be Sampson.* *Sugar has a very high IQ* *and because of this she is very attentive, curious and mischievious. She is snow white, perfect in size and has been voted Miss Personality here at White Oak Kennels. Sugar was born here with us and will have her first litter of puppies this year.* 

I didn't know they did IQ testing in their dogs! ROFL I should stop...I'm feeling feisty.


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

Oooohhh one more from their guarantee/replacement contract: 


*"puppy will be replaced when a suitable puppy of the same quality when one becomes available and will be chosen by White Oak Golden Retrievers. "*

Uh...same quality as a dysplastic dog?? Stellar!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kateann1201 said:


> Of course! I was so floored by him telling me that she was the LAST pup, that I was dying to know what made him think she was the "POL." I honest-to-God was cracking up when I read his email. I couldn't even respond after that. Clearly he was a re-re.


 
It was a typo. He meant POS.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kateann1201 said:


> So I peeked at White Oaks and I read this as I was skimming: *The daughter of Mercy and Diesel. Her sire will be Sampson.* *Sugar has a very high IQ* *and because of this she is very attentive, curious and mischievious. She is snow white, perfect in size and has been voted Miss Personality here at White Oak Kennels. Sugar was born here with us and will have her first litter of puppies this year.*
> 
> I didn't know they did IQ testing in their dogs! ROFL I should stop...I'm feeling feisty.


The dogs at White Oaks have higher IQ's than their breeder.


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## AlanK (Jun 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> The dogs at White Oaks have higher IQ's than their breeder.




lol PG 
Im sure they do!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> The dogs at White Oaks have higher IQ's than their breeder.


OK thats funny =+)


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## Chelseanr (Oct 3, 2010)

I just read through that other thread 14235 pages long, and oh my goodness... just WOW.


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## Retrieverlover (Feb 8, 2010)

A lot of dogs have a higher IQ than their breeder


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Makes you wonder though, how little some people think before getting a dog.....yikes!


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

Instant gratification on the buyers part is what fuels a lot of badly-bred dogs =/ Most people buy on a whim, or want a puppy in the moment. I'm no Golden Expert by any means, but a week of research taught me enough to know when I can drive a truck through the holes of someone's BS story about their "most awesome rare albino retrievers from somewhere over the European rainbow." Teeheehee


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> It was a typo. He meant POS.


 That's EXACTLY what I said to my husband :bowl:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kateann1201 said:


> Instant gratification on the buyers part is what fuels a lot of badly-bred dogs =/ Most people buy on a whim, or want a puppy in the moment. I'm no Golden Expert by any means, but a week of research taught me enough to know when I can drive a truck through the holes of someone's BS story about their "most awesome rare albino retrievers from somewhere over the European rainbow." Teeheehee


If I ever got in the dog scam business, I could do SO much better than these people.


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## The Trio (Apr 24, 2010)

Dumb Da Da Da DUMMMMBB Breeders! Can't we turn them in for lemon laws or have the AKC check out their kennel and close them down??? I mean knowingly breeding dysplastic dogs really??!!!


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

If they are going to breed them anyway, why test and provide the results? And that contract - UGH! I'd have a hard time taking a pup like that for FREE. 

What does GRCA have to say about them? (And AKC?)

Have they been reported?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The AKC does not care about OFA clearances. Years ago when a local mill forged OFA clearances on her "stud" dog and I sent the forgery onto OFA, they were very interested. However, when I questioned OFA about sending it into AKC, they said that doesn't AKC doesn't care about clearances. AKC gets involved when there are questions about parentage.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I was going to stay out of the White Oak specifics... then I went on their website. As a veterinarian of almost 25 years, a golden owner of 20 years, a competitor for 20 years, and very occasional breeder for the last 9 years, I find some of their health claims laughable. In their discussion of doing hip clearances, they state they no longer want to do these "invasive procedures." Invasive procedures??? Invasive is a splenectomy. Sedating or anesthetizing a dog to radiograph it is not invasive. It's an xray! But then it only got better for me: (from the website)"Genetics- clinical findings say that only 20-25% of hip/joint dysplasia is genetic. Some research is now suggesting that it is completely environmental. Meaning that a dog develops these problems after birth due to the following: (they then go on to list diet, weight ,etc)". I subscribe to both JAVMA and their research journal and I clearly MISSED these articles they are citing. In fact, I encourage White Oak to come forward with this research information cited in a refereed journal and not some Internet anecdote. I clearly must zone out when I attend orthopedic continuing ed meetings. It's good to know that for the 7 dogs sitting at my feet they are "lucky" that environment and not their more than 5 generations of clear hips contributed to their overall soundness.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And their contract states that the owner of the dysplastic dog needs their veterinarian to state that the condition was "congenital". Congenital vs hereditary is much like the confusion that exists with the words libel and slander. Congenital means the animal was born with the problem i.e. it was present at birth. Hereditary means just that, the condition came up due to the background genetics. I think most of us who understand the breed would agree that in the majority of cases, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, SAS, and cataracts are hereditary and not present at birth.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> And their contract states that the owner of the dysplastic dog needs their veterinarian to state that the condition was "congenital". Congenital vs hereditary is much like the confusion that exists with the words libel and slander. Congenital means the animal was born with the problem i.e. it was present at birth. Hereditary means just that, the condition came up due to the background genetics. I think most of us who understand the breed would agree that in the majority of cases, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, SAS, and cataracts are hereditary and not present at birth.


 
Yup. They shoulda had them dawgs with the high IQ's write their web site.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Yup. They shoulda had them dawgs with the high IQ's write their web site.


*snert*


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Intentionally breeding dogs with known histories of so much HD has GOT to be some sort of Animal Cruelty, no??


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

bump

White Oak Golden Retrievers... I hope this comes up in a simple google search.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Yeah, a simple
*DON'T BUY FROM 
*​
*WHITE OAK GOLDENS*​oughta do it.​


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## AKGOLD (Nov 9, 2010)

Can we sticky this to the top of the breeder/pedigree page????


The puppy guarantee is a joke, along with the lack of any semblance of clearances. We only sell limited registrations, if they had any faith and belief in the dogs they breed they would want to continue the lines.

I could go on for a long while but it would only make me associate them with backyard breeders and currently some of them are probably better for the breed than this "breeder."


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CarolinaCasey said:


> bump
> 
> White Oak Golden Retrievers... I hope this comes up in a simple google search.


It's currently the fourth result if I google White Oak Golden Retrievers. I believe that the more people search for them and pick the GRF thread, the higher up in the listings it'll go.


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## jonwfr (Nov 27, 2010)

Cannot wait for those puppies>


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

It should be a crime to knowingly breed dysplastic dogs, however it'd be hard to 'proove' I suppose in some cases. Really wish AKC and CKC insisted on clearances, even if they did the non-clearance dogs on a 'B' registry it would help a lot I think..... feel bad for those pups, a lifetime of pain awaits....


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

Everytime I read PG's posts, I end up laughing out loud and the hubby says, "What's so funny?" Bwahaha


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Bumping up.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I had another thought on the way into work. Since White Oak claims that 75-80% of hip dysplasia is environmental and they have dysplastic dogs they breed, doesn't it follow that as breeders, they can't keep their dogs safe from "environmental" (ha ha ha) hip dysplasia so how can they expect owners to be able to prevent it?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> I had another thought on the way into work. Since White Oak claims that 75-80% of hip dysplasia is environmental and they have dysplastic dogs they breed, doesn't it follow that as breeders, they can't keep their dogs safe from "environmental" (ha ha ha) hip dysplasia so how can they expect owners to be able to prevent it?


Good point!! But remember that the breeder said: he/she has never had an incident of hip problems...she denies the whole thing. There are so many excuses coming from this breeder. WHO knows what they will say next! I kinda want to call their vet and talk to them about what they are telling these breeders.....get their insight if they are at all telling them they should still breed.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

kfayard said:


> Good point!! But remember that the breeder said: he/she has never had an incident of hip problems...she denies the whole thing. There are so many excuses coming from this breeder. WHO knows what they will say next! I kinda want to call their vet and talk to them about what they are telling these breeders.....get their insight if they are at all telling them they should still breed.


Call their dogs. The prolly have higher IQ's than their vets, even.


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

They have a facebook page too.... gotta wonder how these people live with themselves....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Bender said:


> They have a facebook page too.... gotta wonder how these people live with themselves....


Oh, quite nicely, trust me. I had a lovely little correspondence with the ever so charming Jeannette Comer. She's quite something, really. When asked about her hip dysplasia "philosophy", rather than discussing it itnelligently and presenting her "belief", she went absolutely postal. ANYone who questions her is simply jealous and breeding crappy dogs. Sigh. ALSO a tactic from the _Greeder's Handbook and Manifesto_.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Pointgold said:


> Call their dogs. The prolly have higher IQ's than their vets, even.


Haha so true!! Only if i knew how to speak dog!!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> _Greeder's Handbook and Manifesto_.


Should be a sticky thread with that title!


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Someone should almost do a 'white goldens for idiot buyers' website as a total spoof/warning of these places. Dumb thing is people would send requests for buying puppies....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Just went on k9 data and randomly picked a White Oak dog to look at its' pedigree and lo and behold, it goes back to the GRF fav..... Gap View.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'm gonna get me a new bumper sticker that says:

My White Oak dawg is smarter than your dawg AND his vetrinaryan.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Just went on k9 data and randomly picked a White Oak dog to look at its' pedigree and lo and behold, it goes back to the GRF fav..... Gap View.


Shazaam!!!


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

bumping up b/c you guys are soooooooo funny
I'm enjoying reading what you all wrote
DON"T BUY FROM WHITE OAKS RETRIEVERS!!!!!!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Oh boy oh boy oh boy! I was jus readin' on the White Oaks site the FAQ's and I just lernt sumthin'...


"Stifling-- Especially in young dogs- letting your dogs jump. Jumping off anything; couches/sofas, beds, chairs, etc. Standing on the hind legs all the time like on a fence or coming down on them playing Frisbee or going up and down steps many times a day. Stifling of the front leg joints and hind legs will cause problems in your pup or adult dog and is the main reason for joint problems in young dogs and later in life. *Owners themselves ultimately have the responsibility to maintain the health of their dog. No matter what anyone tells you, research proves it's just not genetics anymore……..and that's a FACT!"*


*Here is whut I lernt:*
*White Oak dogs have STIFLES in their front legs!!!!!!!!!!! WOW! Oh boy oh boy oh boy...*​


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## kateann1201 (Jan 9, 2011)

So basically............your White Oaks Golden must be kenneled permanently for the duration of it's life, and must never partake in day to day movement or God forbid - exercise? Well just tell me who to make the 2000$ check to! I want an immobile, dysplastic albino retriever NOW! =D


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

An immobile, dysplastic albino retriever *WITH 4 KNEES*, NOW!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

What state is this in? 

You could probably claim neglect under the animal cruelty act for knowingly breeding unhealthy dogs who produce dogs that will have poor welfare as a result, or continuing to breed bitches that have a known ailment which can cause them to have poor welfare during pregancy. Perhaps someone here can tell us whether a hip dysplastic dog would be in added pain while pregnant? In addition, if we can show that they are lying in their claims you could also quote that to the local humane society/spca.

The SPCA here would absolutely be interested in at least knowing about them and paying a visit. Animal cruelty laws are very weak but I bet if a tonne of us call them about these folks there would be follow-up. There would have to an emphasis on concern for the animal's well-being.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I believe they are in WV. Just to confuse the issue there is another White Oak Kennel... www.whiteoakkennelgoldens.com. This kennel has a stellar litter sired by a boy born 8/24/09. I am still trying to come to terms with stifling... is there a support group ou there?


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## Nel (Sep 10, 2010)

It's very sad that Irresponsible breeders are increasing so drastically. This makes my heart sink, thank you for doing the research!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> I believe they are in WV. Just to confuse the issue there is another White Oak Kennel... www.whiteoakkennelgoldens.com. This kennel has a stellar litter sired by a boy born 8/24/09. I am still trying to come to terms with stifling... is there a support group ou there?


Well, I did attempt to organize such a support group, but we were stifled. :curtain:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Nel said:


> It's very sad that Irresponsible breeders are increasing so drastically. This makes my heart sink, thank you for doing the research!


It's an economic consequence of the breed's popularity. As long as lots of people want Goldens and don't educate themselves, there are going to be lots of for-profit outfits that spring up to fill that economic niche. A litter can represent a huge profit margin if you don't do clearances, don't provide all the vet care, and don't compete in conformation or sport the way a great breeder does.

Doing it right typically represents a loss of money for the breeder, so the economic pressure encourages bad breeders to create value through marketing (by creating the image of rare dogs or dogs that are somehow healthier), which costs nothing or almost nothing, instead of creating real value through proper breeding practices.

Since a good breeder treats dogs as living creatures worthy of respect and dignity, you often see a _lower_ price than the dogs are really "worth" in pure economic terms.

The only answer I know of is education. The more we can get the word out to people who view the forum and to the people we know who are looking for dogs, the less the market will support these poor breeding practices.


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## Nel (Sep 10, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> It's an economic consequence of the breed's popularity. As long as lots of people want Goldens and don't educate themselves, there are going to be lots of for-profit outfits that spring up to fill that economic niche. A litter can represent a huge profit margin if you don't do clearances, don't provide all the vet care, and don't compete in conformation or sport the way a great breeder does.
> 
> Doing it right typically represents a loss of money for the breeder, so the economic pressure encourages bad breeders to create value through marketing (by creating the image of rare dogs or dogs that are somehow healthier), which costs nothing or almost nothing, instead of creating real value through proper breeding practices.
> 
> ...



Well said! I totally agree, education is key, even to solve most other problems we are facing in this world.


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## hanksmemory (Jul 17, 2011)

Thank you all so much for posting this very useful information. I just commented on another thread, but I'll comment here as well. White Oak is near us in WV and I came an ace of buying a dark red pup from them. The only thing that stopped me is that th2 of her bitches didn't take so I started searching all over the country rather than confining my search to WV (where there aren't many reputable breeders). I wish I had come here first and read these horrific things. I can't believe she is doing this! She gave me many lectures on the importance of health and how she only breeds family pets and she doesn't like the AKC because they don't regulate the poor breeders. Wow. Little did I know that she is one of those poor breeders. I'm really shocked right now and I really hope that others like me read these threads and steer clear of White Oak!


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