# Puppies Looking Like Mom or Dad?



## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

To my understanding, the usual case is for both parents to be somewhat similar with the strengths of one parent complimenting the faults of the other. Since any faults should NOT be great (or that animal should NOT even be bred), having both parents similar will produce a litter that is very predictable in looks. Example: Breeding a very small dog to a very large dog does NOT produce a litter of middle sized dogs but rather a wide range of sizes within that litter... this is not good if you are attempting to produce dogs within the standard for size. A really good breeder, I believe, starts with an ideal in mind and THEN purchases breeding stock with those characteristics... then line-breeds to get the specific traits and finally very carefully introduces in-breeding to really 'set' those traits firmly within the line. The litter from a good breeding should be very predictable with very little variation between pups. The exception is a 'wild' out-crossing where the object is to introduce some feature/characteristic that doesn't exist in the current line. I personally would not be seeking a puppy from such a litter.


----------



## Melissa (Jul 9, 2006)

Thank you, Monomer, that was interesting. We visited a reputable breeder yesterday and met the parents of a 4-wk-old litter. Both are gorgeous dogs with wonderful temperments. The dad is an American/Canadian champion, light in color, with a huge, blocky head. The dam has a much sleeker head and is a bit darker in color. We saw two male pups who looked exactly alike (didn't see the rest of the pups). So are you saying it was less than ideal to mate these two goldens and that we should not take pups from this litter?


----------



## golddogz (Apr 27, 2006)

If you feel comfortable, please post who the breeder is. There are a couple breeders on this site and they may be able to offer some guidance as well.


----------



## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm not entirely sure of your definition of 'blocky' and 'sleek' but keep in mind that un-neutered males have much wider heads than females and are just physically larger. Color variation is usually not such a big deal as long as the parents are not on opposite extremes... I believe there can still be some variation in coloring even if the parents are exactly the same shade.

Please keep in mind that breeding and genetics are not my forte... I know there are much more knowledgeable people on this forum than I on these subject matters. I'm hoping some of the breeders on this forum will respond with some of their own opinions.


----------



## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Now, since I'm back on and have more time... AND... since no one else seems to have replied in the meantime(where is everyone today anyway?)... I will continue to run on aimlessly...

My earlier example of using size was probably not the best example because there is a natural gender difference that exists between males and females. Males are naturally larger than females... what I mean is if the sire and dam are the exact same size then that is NOT as good a match as if the dam were a couple of inches shorter. Some other natural differences between females and un-neutered males are... un-neutered males will have a noticeably wider head due to musculature differences and also be packing more muscle in the shoulders, generally have a more pronounced stop and a squarer, thicker muzzle (also a male has a fuller mane but since the dam has been so stressed you shouldn't judge her coat at this time). There may well be more natural differences between the sexes that I'm not aware of though. So a good match would respect those differences... however examples of some things that do NOT have gender distinctions are things like eye shape, ear carriage, tail length, angulation and balance, etc... if these types of characteristics are fairly alike between the parents then these features will most likely be stable and expressed in all the pups in the litter (some of these things will not be truly apparent 'til they are much older though). These types of features are many but most of us who don't really have much experience studying the Golden anatomy closely will probably miss noting much of these things. I might suggest you look take a look at all the golden retriever photos on this forum until you begin to see and note some of these structural differences that are not gender related. Then go back and view the sire and dam and also see if all the puppies look reasonably similar (aside from shades of color and body fat... 'cause some puppies at that age will always be a little fatter and maybe a bit bigger than the others but those differences should fade pretty quickly). However your best bet is to carefully study the sire and dam for their physical characteristics and ask to see any pictures of grown puppies from a previous mating if possible to see if you like the look. If nothing else, pay attention to the temperament of the dam ('they' say 90% of the temperament will come from the dam... which I think makes some sense since she is after all their first teacher and pack leader and role model) and watch the movements of the parents carefully, if they are 'put together' right all movements should be fluid at all times in all activities. If retrieving is important to you make sure the parents have this drive in them... not all retrievers retrieve, not all retrievers like the water, etc. Do NOT take anything for granted... know what you want or are willing to settle for in a pet you will have for his/her lifetime (maybe as long as 15-years if you are very lucky).


----------



## greg bell (May 24, 2005)

exactly what are you looking for in your golden?.. that would help.. if looks are the primary thing, then look for a reputable breeder that is doing that.. 
If you look at the thread on what people that have goldens feel is important, you will find that the most frequent number one answer is health.. I would look for a pedigree with long living healthy dogs in it.. I would ask very pointed questions about allergies and other health related issues in the pedigree.. If the breeder is indeed concerned about health issues, they will be able to answer your questions.. then I would look at temprament and tractibility... a dog that is a joy to be around.. I like a very active dog, but that would not suit the lifestyles of many.. 
I guess what I am trying to say is that be very careful putting the looks of the dog at the head of the list on what you are looking for.


----------



## Melissa (Jul 9, 2006)

Thank you to everyone who has answered--all the replies have been very helpful.


We are looking for a family pet. The most important characteristics to us are health and temperment. I think they are both equally important. A healthy dog with an unpleasant personality, or an unhealthy dog with a pleasant personality are what we are trying to avoid.


The dam and sire we saw were both great dogs. Friendly and happy! We spent the most time with the mother, who was exactly what we would want in a pet. 


Appearance is not high on our list, although I will say that given a choice, I liked the look of the mother better. Just "cuter" is all. On the other hand, we would love and adore any puppy we got. I just may be overthinking this


----------



## schleng (Feb 2, 2006)

Hi Melissa,
When we were looking for our puppy, for some reason I got into researcning ancestors. Obsessed is more the word for it! I found it pretty fascinating.
In case you are interested, you can take the AKC registered name of the parents and go to the following websites to get all kinds of information, including health of the parents, grandparents, and so on.
www.K9data.com
http://www.offa.org/search.html?action=new

During my "obsession" I came across a fascinating article on genetics. The original author is not quoted, so who knows how accurate this is. But it was so detailed that I found it VERY interesting. It was called the XY factor and it talks about which ancestors can play important parts in passing genes onto future offspring. Perhaps people here have read it and think it's just a theory. At any rate, here is the link:
http://www.trirycheminpins.com/Breeding/XYfactor.htm

Good luck with whatever you decide. By the way, once you get the puppy home, all the above kind of goes out the window!! LOL
Susan


----------



## Melissa (Jul 9, 2006)

Thanks for the info, Susan!


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

The exception is a 'wild' out-crossing where the object is to introduce some feature/characteristic that doesn't exist in the current line. I personally would not be seeking a puppy from such a litter.[/QUOTE]

I definitely agree with this in general. But, there are exceptions when a great dog comes from a very calculated outcrossing, though it is usually one more generation or two back into the line. The usual procedure would be to take the outcrossed puppy and then breed her back tightly into the original line, hoping for her pups or grandpups to both sustain the right type, and demonstrate the improvement sought from the outcrossing. Outcrossing can help maintain breed standard in extremes- when fabulously talented field dogs are too small and sparsly-coated to be within the standard, or when a show line really crosses a line from type to cartoon of type. It is a lottery though. My puppy Tango comes from a field-style mother and a confirmation-oriented father, and is a result of outcrossing done by a super-experienced breeder who can quote the pedigree of just about any dog from the past century. Amazingly, all the siblings are very consistent with one another, with exactly the bone, big free gait, lovely topline we were hoping for plus a very birdy bent. Of course, she probably won't be as lovely a show dog as her dad or as gifted a field dog as her mother and grandfather, but there is that glimmer of an offchance she will be. On the other hand,my puppy Tally is opposite to Tango; he exemplifies a type- the Twin Beau D / Nautilus blondie with a massive, masculine head and triple-ply lion's ruff coat- but really not any chance of doing field work. People just say right away who his breeder is because it is a distinctive style of golden.I am pretty fasinated by all this and I love this thread!


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Melissa said:


> If the sire and dam of a litter look very different (say, the dad is lighter in color with a blocky head and the mom is darker with a sleeker head), does it follow that the boy pups will look like the dad and the females will look like the mom, or is it totally random? If it's random, at what age can you start to tell which parent the pups will favor?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks!


Sometimes neither.

They may resemble a common ancestor, grandparent perhaps that is shared by both the sire and dam.


----------



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Swampcollie is correct. When I do an outcross breeding, that is, where there are no ancestors common to the sire and dam, I look to both being phenotypically similiar (similar in appearance and type) and I do breed a line-bred bitch to a line-bred dog. This will increase the chances of the litter being consistent, whereas a totally outcrossed breeding, of outcrossed dam to out crossed sire, the results will be absolutely unrpedictable - both in appearance AND in genetic health.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

My puppy Tango is a great example of a huge outcrossing- which only makes sense if she gets linebred back to a great dog on her fieldside- maybe to put some bone in there? 

Dad
AM CH SHR Springcreek Everlore All Time Hi RN WC VC BOSS CGC	
AM CH SHR Sundown Legends of the Sand CD JH WC OA OAJ AJP OAP VCX CGC	
Am. CH Evergreen's Blue Angel NA, WC, CGC, VC, SDHF, OS

Mom
Kuventre You Were Born TaFly MH	
U-UD Topbrass Shudabin A Cowboy UDX, MNH, WCX (OS)	
Tigathoes Rusty Rocket *** OS
OTCH KC Jubilee of Selfaire UDX MH


----------

