# Hunt and Field training plans for the week of March 11-17



## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well today was alright. It was nice to see the younger dogs in our group slowly start to turn the corner. One friend borrowed a bark collar (dogtra I think) and his dog was sitting their barking away. He told me he put it on 1 and I told him he needed to turn it up. He wanted to give it awhile first to see if it would eventually work. So we waited a few minutes and dog was still barking. I told R he needed to turn it up. Finally convinced he turned it to 2. Dog kept barking. Told R he needed to turn it up...he waited then finally went to a 3. Put dog away in crate and she was still barking. R had a hard time going any higher even though I told him better to do it once then having her get continually nicked at this low level that obviously doesn't bother her. Still working on him  At least we convinced him to try a prong collar so he doesn't get pulled all over the field by the no-pull harness he was using.

With it warming up we did some swimming with the dogs. The younger two dogs with newbie handlers had never swam their dogs so it was fun watching them learn the mechanics of swimming. Scout did some water marks but initially fell back to her 'limit' that we had last year....meaning she has a certain distance she is comfortable going (about what I can throw, ahem) but any further and she hems and haws a little. I haven't water forced her yet because I was not going to without the aide of a pro on that one but I know I really need to now. Anyway, I had to verbal drive her into the water once or twice when the distance extended, but once she was in the water she was fine. I think its that commitment when the mark is longer. We did a couple water marks and toward the end I did not have that problem...so maybe just a refresher and boost to start the season is what she needed. And water force...will wait until it is warmer and also wondering if I should wait until after our tests next month so as not to rock the boat.

We ran a nice double in very thick cover that she handled well. Then I ran a short, yet a bit difficult blind. If the dog took the line it required them to brush just past an old tree and its long branches. The other side of the line was a small hill and the blind was beyond it in a valley. Her initial line was ok, but she ventured up the hill. I would guess that the tree pushed her off the line (didn't want to brush up to it). Had a small struggle that I am occasionally seeing and I only hope will get better in time....Namely she *thinks* she knows where it is and wants to auto cast herself there. I'm just taking my time. Waiting a few minutes before recasting. Being ready to stop her the instant she takes a wrong cast, and calling her back to the spot of error for a re-do. And it feels like it is slowly working. I did get her to the blind and she got lots of praise for that. And I am trying to remind myself that she's learning and not a seasoned dog so this is normal for a lot of dogs, right?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sounds like a great session, Lisa. Sure wish I could join your group.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Faelan and I had an incredible session  Organized confusion drills with multiple 'bird boys' moving in the field. 

Faelan truly moves like an athlete - you know powerful, active, driven. 20 marks and he was still as fast returning on the last one as he was on the first with some serious wind and rolling terrain. The marks were not short either. 

He is settling in to delivering to front, then finishing to set up for his next mark. This will change when he has completed his obedience career - well my goals for him in obedience. But since it costs nothing in Hunt Tests but 5 points for each no front/finish in obedience, this is working right now. And yeah, obedience is still a higher priority for me than Hunt Tests 

We too are having lovely weather, and my mentor mentioned today that if this great weather continues, we may be able to get the dogs in water in another 2 weeks or so.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Nope, we never had small struggles over autocasting. 
We had BIG struggles :doh::doh:




GoldenSail said:


> Had a small struggle that I am occasionally seeing and I only hope will get better in time....Namely she *thinks* she knows where it is and wants to auto cast herself there.....And I am trying to remind myself that she's learning and not a seasoned dog so this is normal for a lot of dogs, right?


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

I had the opportunity to go and do some training with my club today but I chose to stay home. I have been so tired lately that I didnt think I could handle a 2hr drive 4-5hrs of training and then 2hrs home again. 

Yesterday my son and I went to a field close by and did some long marks about 150ft or so I have not measured it out yet. Jige had a little trouble because I only had one black/white hex bumper with one all black and 3 white. The sky was a light blue/white cloud cover and the snow patches on the ground messed with him abit. He did okay with the dark bumpers just the white ones were hard on him. 

I hope tomorrow to get to the field and do some more long marks. 

I want to do some more pile work and honors with him and Prada. This week is suppose to be nice so maybe we can get in more practice.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Tie some streamers on your bumpers if there isn't enough contrast between the color of the bumper and the sky. Dogs are better at detecting motion than we are so the fluttering of the streamer helps them to locate the bumper as it flies.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

It looks like I may be getting a new puppy this week. I think that the pup is 7 1/2 weeks old, just about ready for me to take her. My Springer, Aster, is about 13 years old and I can't do much with him. Buffy is 3 years old and the reality is I am planning ahead---I do like to have 2 dogs.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Can't wait to see pictures of the new pup!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

How exciting!!! Boy? Girl? Golden? Pedigree??




gdgli said:


> It looks like I may be getting a new puppy this week. I think that the pup is 7 1/2 weeks old, just about ready for me to take her. My Springer, Aster, is about 13 years old and I can't do much with him. Buffy is 3 years old and the reality is I am planning ahead---I do like to have 2 dogs.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I am finally back from the Sheltie national. Shelties are boring.
My friends Joan and Robin are visiting, they came yesterday and are here through Wednesday.
We went last night and I set up a T for Robin's dog (Fetcher) -- he did the T great but loopy sit, when we tried correcting on the sit the dog showed a big fat hole in training, when he got pressure he would come IN -- not good! He was CC'd to HERE first and never completely CC'd to SIT and it showed. He is now the 3rd dog I've trained with to be CC'd to HERE first and they ALL have shown this behavior of coming in when confused and feeling pressure. Anyways we made a little headway and will head out in a few minutes here and see if today is better. Other than that his T was lovely, we also did Wagon wheel and he was perfect.
For Joan's dogs we did WW and a steadying drill with her young dog.
Slater I did a no-no drill, first time for him and it was pretty cool. They had some old car tires in the field so we lined up four tires and he had to jump over that. When I backed up to about 30 yards he started to flare but eventually worked it out and then took a good line. Pretty cool! We'll try again today.
We are also going out to Williston today to set up a T in the water for Fetcher, let Robin run Fisher on some land blinds, and marks for everyone. Tomorrow we'll go to Whisper Creek in St. Augustine for water marks.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Good weather for training this weekend, but because of lack of time and lack of grounds had to change things up a bit. On Saturday did some drills at a local office park. Worked both critters on 'look far' drills, did some WW lining and push pull drills. In the afternoon session, we did some steadiness drills for the older critter.

On Sunday we went to a friends farm. Too wet to get down to the water, so we stuck to land. Did singles off of multiple guns for both. Ranged from 250 to 400 yds with one hip pocket and one under the arc. Old dog got a correction and taken off the line for moving a muscle and young dog we just wanted him not to head swing (he doesn't creep anyway). Old dog got a blind tight behind a gun and one past an old fall. The young dog we are working on momentum, particularly casting into the wind, so we set up a few 'pop up' blinds. He was taking off like a rocket into the wind for those.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> I am finally back from the Sheltie national. Shelties are boring.


Hey now! I am going to pretend I didn't read that!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> How exciting!!! Boy? Girl? Golden? Pedigree??


Female golden. I don't want to say anything about the dog yet because I need to discuss some things with my 24 year old son before I take the dog. My son lives with me and is still in school. I like to include him when I make a decision such as this---we're all in the same house and he will be asked to help. Three dogs will be a lot to handle.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Hey now! I am going to pretend I didn't read that!


LOL Well let's just say, I sat in my vendor booth for five straight days and NOT ONE sheltie came up and said Hi to me.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well they are not goldens and I believe it is even in the standard that they are supposed to be reserve toward strangers. I grew up with them great dogs other than the barking and coat was a lot to take care of. But I've see some very cute spunky ones that are great at agility/obedience.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ok, this could be wrong, but I've been told by someone "in the know" that shelties and border collies are NOT supposed to bark, it's incorrect for the breed.
I was told that the sheep herding dogs don't bark, because sheep are spooky animals. The cow herding dogs it is correct for the breed to bark.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Off work this week for March Break, so I get to train lots! We were showing this weekend--Butch was a good boy, but aapparently not hairy enough for the judge. Breeder judge standing ringside really liked him though, and said so, so that was nice at least!

It was raining yesterday so we took a day off. For the rest of the week, handling stuff with Bonnie, and then marks in the late afternoon when training partner goldk9 gets off work. The time change is at least good for our training!

I also have to get an article finished for the Golden Leaves, so will be spending some time writing as well.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

hey Shelly, since you are off this week, how about coming here and helping me train???? Weather is supposed to be lovely this week, mid-70's (unseasonably warm for us!) with intermittent showers.
I am going to get him into some "splashing water" today as soon as some of this dense fog burns off. I want to do some marks and blind in the splashing water and see how it goes. 
He's been off for the past 4 days and says he is VERY bored.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> ok, this could be wrong, but I've been told by someone "in the know" that shelties and border collies are NOT supposed to bark, it's incorrect for the breed.
> I was told that the sheep herding dogs don't bark, because sheep are spooky animals. The cow herding dogs it is correct for the breed to bark.


Really? The Shelties I know and have known are barking fools! I don't hear a lot of Border Collies bark though. 

It's snowing and blowing today so I'll continue working on CC to sit inside the shop with Tag.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

From what I recall of sheltie history they were actually alarm dogs before they were herding dogs which is why they are little naughty yappers.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> hey Shelly, since you are off this week, how about coming here and helping me train???? Weather is supposed to be lovely this week, mid-70's (unseasonably warm for us!) with intermittent showers.
> I am going to get him into some "splashing water" today as soon as some of this dense fog burns off. I want to do some marks and blind in the splashing water and see how it goes.
> He's been off for the past 4 days and says he is VERY bored.


That would be fun, and nice to see some different land, but I already decided not to go to Alabama for the week because the weather up here is soooo nice. That and I have puppy people coming for a visit on Friday to meet the horde.


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## ashleylp (Jul 23, 2011)

Hey there all! We are continuing working on force fetch this week. Today we are going to go out and work on walking fetch and fetch no fetch. Everyone in my club is surprised with how fast Remy is progressing... Apparently he really "gets" it. We have also been working with him every day (and sometimes twice a day) because, of course, we want to get to casting! Right now my dad thinks I'm crazy that I drive and meet with the club every weekend "so Remy can play fetch for a few minutes". I'm sure he'll be more impressed/on board with it all when Remy is a master hunter! 

We are starting to think about getting a second dog in the next year or two. After being around my friend's pack of 7 dogs (labs and Goldens) I'm really seeing the importance of having a pack... When Remy joins in he just has a ball and also learns a lot by watching the other dogs. That being said, I've been told that if I want to be "successful" in hunt then I need to suck it up and get a lab. Don't get me wrong, I love labs, they just aren't.... Goldens. I'm planning on putting a MH title on my boy to prove them wrong, but how do you guys feel about the lab vs golden debate for hunt? Remy was from a backyard breeder (we werent educated) and I've had many dog professionals ask for his pedigree because they want a dog with his drive, etc. Everyone is surprised when they find out he was from a BB. I know I got lucky... So what kennels (close to TX) breed good field Goldens?


Sorry so long!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

IMO if you were a very intense and serious field trialer get a lab. There are more of them out there getting field champions for a reason....having said that not everyone is a lab person and as has been said before a good dog is a good dog regardless of breed. There are certainly very nice working goldens and other breeds as well that can and do achieve the high titles so largely personal preference and selecting from the right pool and pairing with good training.

I personally just am not a lab person. I'll take my goldens...and maybe even a flat coat...any day over a lab. That's just me though.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

ashleylp said:


> Hey there all! We are continuing working on force fetch this week. Today we are going to go out and work on walking fetch and fetch no fetch. Everyone in my club is surprised with how fast Remy is progressing... Apparently he really "gets" it. We have also been working with him every day (and sometimes twice a day) because, of course, we want to get to casting! Right now my dad thinks I'm crazy that I drive and meet with the club every weekend "so Remy can play fetch for a few minutes". I'm sure he'll be more impressed/on board with it all when Remy is a master hunter!
> 
> We are starting to think about getting a second dog in the next year or two. After being around my friend's pack of 7 dogs (labs and Goldens) I'm really seeing the importance of having a pack... When Remy joins in he just has a ball and also learns a lot by watching the other dogs. That being said, I've been told that if I want to be "successful" in hunt then I need to suck it up and get a lab. Don't get me wrong, I love labs, they just aren't.... Goldens. I'm planning on putting a MH title on my boy to prove them wrong, but how do you guys feel about the lab vs golden debate for hunt? Remy was from a backyard breeder (we werent educated) and I've had many dog professionals ask for his pedigree because they want a dog with his drive, etc. Everyone is surprised when they find out he was from a BB. I know I got lucky... So what kennels (close to TX) breed good field Goldens?
> 
> ...


Just be careful not to jump ahead too quickly. Really ensure everything is solidified before moving on. This is probably the most common mistake made by first time trainers.

Interestingly, when looking at FT results it does seem that you need a lab to be successful, but when you look at titling rates the few Goldens running actually have a pretty good record. Proportionally, more of them finish their titles than do the labs running the FTs. That said, you really do have to get one from a trial bred pedigree, and either be an expert trainer yourself, or pay to have your dog trained by a really good FT pro to have a shot at an FC.

For hunt tests, lots of Goldens are capable of getting the MH title and make wonderful hunting companions. No reason to switch breeds if these are your goals and you want to train your own dogs!

There are some excellent breeders with working lines in Texas and nearby: Belvedere, Goldenloch, Docs, Amigold, and KC are all in TX, and just over in OK is Rockerin.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I didn't know that....guess I was thrown off by the breed name...Shetland Sheepdog!



GoldenSail said:


> From what I recall of sheltie history they were actually alarm dogs before they were herding dogs which is why they are little naughty yappers.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Got the monster boy out for some splashing water today! Yay!!!
Set up 3 cold blinds while he waited in the truck (side note....my Tiny, who will be 15 next week, got to walk around with us while we set the blinds, so she was a happy girl!) and then gave it a go. I would say he did so-so. His initial lines weren't very good, and I think that was the biggest problem. On the second blind I lost the bird, and had to walk over and locate it after giving him about 10 casts back and forth (on the land) where he couldn't find the bird. Guess it would have helped if I had been casting him into the right vicinity.
Anyway, that squared away, we set 3 more blinds out. I made 2 of them quite easy, and the 3rd one pretty hard because it was a tight angle entry/exit and the bird was hidden in fairly heavy cover on the shore, about 10 feet up from the water. Well from the muck. He did a really nice (as in, cooperative) job on those, took good lines, nice directions, so I was pleased and we quit on blinds.
Had my husband (also known as TWWBB...The World's Worst Bird Boy) throw a few doubles for us. I had him throw the memory bird on the shore in moderate cover, and the go-bird into the water. No trouble with any of those, we did 3 doubles and he (Tito, not the hubby....) did a great job. 
So that was it for today. The splashing water I believe is really hard on their muscles, especially since we're in "out of shape because of winter" mode right now. The retrieves were each a good 50 yards or more in splashing water, the blinds between 50-80 yards, so he got quite a workout today.
edit to add....I also had his entries for a couple of the blinds and a couple of the marks from about 20 yards away from the pond, so he'd get some practice with long land entries. Those are a bit problematic for us because he tends to do the dock diving LEAP into the water if he gets a bit of distance to get moving, and I need him to tone down his water entry for safety reasons.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> For hunt tests, lots of Goldens are capable of getting the MH title and make wonderful hunting companions. No reason to switch breeds if these are your goals and you want to train your own dogs!
> 
> There are some excellent breeders with working lines in Texas and nearby: Belvedere, Goldenloch, Docs, Amigold, and KC are all in TX, and just over in OK is Rockerin.


I saw a golden get its final pass for MH that convinced me that any golden can get a MH title with enough time and patience from the owner. This dog had zero desire and it took the right kind of test but he got it. It was great to see since it was a long road and the owners were so happy. Made me teary eyed. I got a MH on a golden before I knew there was a difference between hunt and field. If your dog has desire and you are patient and aren't trying to rush things, you can absolutely put a MH on a golden.

Now I have to admit that my AA dog is black, but my young golden (who we washed for FT stuff) is a much better marker. He just doesn't seem like he is going to develop the water courage needed for those Sunday water marks. Still, he might. We aren't giving up and will continue to run him in Qs and probably go get the MH.

I will always have goldens, although may have a lab or two as well. We will probably buy a started lab that has AA potential this year as our next critter. Definitely look at some of the breeders mentioned. I have heard that there are still some Sabre straws left and I will be begging for a spot on that list if I find out about a breeding.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Goldens are MORE than capable of getting a Master Hunter! 

I will never own a Lab for the simple reason that growing up, it was the only breed of dog we could have (my moms favorite and she ruled the roost). Everyone of them we had was dumber than a box of rocks (I know now that is not typical) mainly because they were not bred with the caution of reputable breeders. Still, for me it will only be Golden, Toller or Flatty.

You can do it, just make sure you follow a program, seek professional advice and HAVE FUN!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

> I love labs, they just aren't.... Goldens. I'm planning on putting a MH title on my boy to prove them wrong, but how do you guys feel about the lab vs golden debate for hunt?


My Goldens do my talking for me at at every training day. They are generally better markers and more intelligent than labs and on a day when they are on their game they can't be beat. I can't tell you how many Labs we have smoked! They are a challenge, but just how good of a trainer do you want to be??


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The pro I train with often makes general observations about goldens versus labs. He feels that, in general, goldens are smarter and have better noses. (He breeds labs, btw).
He says that when you really see the goldens shine is on the very difficult, technical marks.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Sorry, I only post like ONCE a WEEK!!! I will try to find more time to post! Spring break is just aroud the corner 

Cannon and I started Force Fetch on Sunday. It did not go so hot Sunday. He kept locking his jaw up. But, Monday and Tuesday...it was like a light bulb went off! He has done Fabulous!!! Today, I was even holding the bumper out about 6 inches and he was going for it. So, we will continue this until I feel he is ready enough to do walking fetch. I do not want to move to fast on this.

We are entered in the UKC started this weekend...should be interestig to say the least! Mainly, because I have been doing the training by myself!!!! I have got to work on "HERE" more. When he gets a duck, he gets a little too excited and sometimes he like to galavant with it. This is my fault because I have NOT bought an e-collar yet. So, hopefully we will get one soon!! 

Just been so tied up with trying to get handler fees paid off. Otherwise, Remi or Cannon would be at a pro's facility training!! Oh welll!!

If he does well with started, I might enter him in a JH in april...we will see.

Good luck to everyone.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Be sure to let us know how it goes, Kelli!

I'm sitting here trying to decide what to do with the monster boy today. I have about 2 hours of free time, and the weather is lovely. Going to hit 80 later today, will break a record. I'm inclined to get him in the water, but we did the splashing water yesterday and I want to do something different today.
I can't find anyone who can come out and play today, so I'll be on my own, which is too bad because I really want to work doubles. My training partner has the wingers right now, sigh. 
I can probably get my husband (TWWBB) to toss some dead ducks around for a while.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> I saw a golden get its final pass for MH that convinced me that any golden can get a MH title with enough time and patience from the owner. This dog had zero desire and it took the right kind of test but he got it. It was great to see since it was a long road and the owners were so happy. Made me teary eyed. I got a MH on a golden before I knew there was a difference between hunt and field. If your dog has desire and you are patient and aren't trying to rush things, you can absolutely put a MH on a golden.
> 
> Now I have to admit that my AA dog is black, but my young golden (who we washed for FT stuff) is a much better marker. He just doesn't seem like he is going to develop the water courage needed for those Sunday water marks. Still, he might. We aren't giving up and will continue to run him in Qs and probably go get the MH.
> 
> I will always have goldens, although may have a lab or two as well. We will probably buy a started lab that has AA potential this year as our next critter. Definitely look at some of the breeders mentioned. I have heard that there are still some Sabre straws left and I will be begging for a spot on that list if I find out about a breeding.


I train with a Sabre son.: He is a phenomenal marker.

I'd agree that water is the crux of the issue with the Goldens. If I have needed to handle on a mark in Master with Breeze, it has been on water, barringweird circumstances. She'd get through some qual land marks I have seen, as well as the blinds because that is her favourite thing to do, but just does not have the water courage for that big memory bird on qual water. The son I kept from her first litter definitely has water courage issues (poor sweet Butchie), and after that I bred to a more working line to address that. So far my Trey kids are doing well. Son Baron, who I co-own with a friend, hits the water hard and does not quit--he was doing SH work at 11 months old. Little Bonnie is also pretty cool. We did marks last night where the line to the longest mark was over 3 small mounds--she did not let them push her off line at all (the white coffee cup _en route_ got her attention, but she kept going!) I am breeding to a Trey grandson for her next litter, and have loved his work and what I have seen of his kids' work.

I would also agree that there are dogs who have their MH (and for that matter their SH as well--and if these managed to get a Master some day please shoot me because then the program has been completely devalued) who are really not consistent enough to be what I would truly consider a Master calibre dog. But that is the main fault that I see with the hunt test program--there is no limit on the number of attempts. I personally know of dogs who have run over 20, and 25 tests to get those 5 passes--that is less than a 25 % and 20% pass rate!! It says MH on their paperwork, but that is not a dog I would want to breed to if looking to improve working ability!!! I do like the Master National and note the dogs that finish it--the consistency required to get through it is certainly informative. And thank god for EE--I love being able to look up more recent dogs' records to see how many tests it took and whether they were chasing certain judges.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> I train with a Sabre son.: He is a phenomenal marker.


All the Sabre kids and grandkids I know have been great markers. From what I heard Sabre was a fantastic marker, but his favorite marks were poison birds  . I heard he climbed a tree in one trial to get a poison bird that was misthrown.

I can really see my young guy's ability running him with my black dog. There is often a subtle difference in the line my golden takes and it is always more direct to the area of the fall. 

He shows signs that he might be good enough for the Q with more work. For example, he really will shoulder into the wind on a tough mark to keep on line. But those AA water marks are a different story--they take something else altogether. I had him on the truck of one of the top FT pros and he made great improvement but the pro basically said that if I wanted to run AA stuff, it would be cheaper to buy a better dog.

However, we ran him in a HT that my club put on and I was working anyway. He definitely can do that--he even nailed the cheaty water marks that most other folks had to handle. His blinds need work, but there is a big difference between HT blinds and Q blinds as well. If you have the same setup, say a down the shore water blind, at a HT if you get in, and stay in and move toward the bird with each cast, even if you don't go far before you need another one, you will pass under most judges. In a Q, some dogs are going to do it with just a couple of whistles, so you need to be able to. He is really consistent--my AA dog can really blow up at a HT--so I think we might try for the MN as he does not come apart over long periods like my Cosmo dog does. We will see. We ran one FT last month to see where we were and are going to run a HT with an OHQ at the end of this month and will decide after that whether to focus on HTs more or FTs.

I know what you mean about not relying on the MH in the pedigree when looking for a field dog. EE is a great resource. MH is an accomplishment, but it is nice to know if it took six attempts or six years for a dog to get it


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> All the Sabre kids and grandkids I know have been great markers. From what I heard Sabre was a fantastic marker, but his favorite marks were poison birds  . I heard he climbed a tree in one trial to get a poison bird that was misthrown.


Funny you would mention this as poison birds have been his son's bugaboo too! But he did a very good job with the couple we ran last night.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

From what I am seeing water with either (Labs or Goldens) needs to stressed from early on and water,water and more water. Land is seldom a weakness in Goldens. Poison birds have always been a weakness but I think it is less of fault than a desire to bring your birds back. They are smart enough to figure out they can bring both back just as easily as one.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

There is a pretty well known show dog who has, I've been told, run 17 JH tests and still does not have his JH....

A good day today. Ran mixed marks/blinds on land, then water, then land again. No doubles, though, except a short one where I hand threw the memory bird because I only had my husband (TWWBB) to throw for me today.
The ducks are soggy and gross. Time to retire them I think!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

*sigh* I would love to see a nice field bred golden work...one who was bred for this purpose. As it is I almost always am the only one showing up to club days with a golden--which puts the pressure on because I don't want to do anything that makes goldens look bad! We've since added a couple new people to our group that have goldens from show lines and...well...just don't have quite the drive and desire I would like to see.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> There is a pretty well known show dog who has, I've been told, run 17 JH tests and still does not have his JH....


Yeah , I witnessed a number of those attempts. Not only doesn't he have his JH, he doesn't have a single PASS in four years of trying. And unfortunately his owner is not getting the training in that would be necessary to address the problems--we talked about it at one of the tests. I don't understand why she keeps entering him at this point, as it only reinforces that impression that show Goldens cannot work. 

It's not even that he is getting through land and then finding the water too diffcult. In one I saw him commit one of the two cardinal sins--giving up and returning without the bird, without even really putting on a hunt. Another of them was where 10 1/2 month old Bonnie got her first pass, seeing her first flyer ever. Just sayin'....


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Since it's blowing and snowing outside, I installed an eye bolt on one of the shop uprights. Put a long line through the eye and a dummy e-collar on Tag and worked on whistle sits away from me. Worked very well, it didn't take long for Tag to catch on.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The monster boy is from show lines, and lack of desire/lack of drive are NOT among his (many) problems. So they are out there, from show lines. He has no issue with water, cover changes, mud, rough terrain, nothing. Will pick up the most disgusting, stinky, maggoty bird you can imagine. He FLIES out on retrieves, and will even "yelp" as he leaves the line sometimes he's so amped up. Sits and vibrates while waiting for his turn.
He does tend to come back slower than I'd like, at a canter rather than a gallop. My training partner says, "I'm Tito, I'm on the catwalk, I have a prize" and gets us laughing. He's bird possessive and doesn't want to come back and give it up. 
But truly, not all show dogs perform poorly in the field. I've seen a couple of very nice ones in this area. There's one little show bitch that's an amazing marker, and has drive, desire, and ATTITUDE to spare!
And sadly, there are some out there who make me want to BEG their handlers to never bring them back, they give the show dogs such a bad name.





GoldenSail said:


> *sigh* I would love to see a nice field bred golden work...one who was bred for this purpose. As it is I almost always am the only one showing up to club days with a golden--which puts the pressure on because I don't want to do anything that makes goldens look bad! We've since added a couple new people to our group that have goldens from show lines and...well...just don't have quite the drive and desire I would like to see.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I know there are show dogs that can do it...and mine is from show lines. However, it would be nice to compare her to a dog that was actually bred to work. I would like to know how my dog rates in comparison to those dogs. I think getting a dog from unproven (in the field) show lines you may not get what you need for the higher levels of field training.

My really good friend has show labs that she does field with. I would love to see her get a CH/MH on her puppy. Great puppy as far as I am concerned but I tell you what she did her research. Actually, most of my training group has labs from show lines because they like the look better...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If you want to see a dog that was bred to work, I think you also have to see that dog in the hands of someone who knows how to train. They can be a handful, especially for a novice trainer. But a great dog with a great trainer, now that's beautiful!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think a good dog would be one that a novice could be successful at training and still do a darn good job and you could appreciate it. Would love to see a nice dog with a skilled handler!!

So maybe I should amend my statement to just being able to watch the best goldens work so I know what to strive for myself. I said field mainly because I want to make a fair assessment of my own dog's field ability and I would assume that most of the best goldens for hunt tests/field trials will be field bred because they were bred with hunting in mind.

...and I would like to learn for myself what shortcomings are normal for dogs and those which are not...those that are acceptable....and those that are not. For example, I hear water courage can be a problem across the entire breed (not just the show lines).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I train with 3 labs from high octane field lines. The differences are very apparent, but I'm not sure how much of that is lab vs. golden, or field bred vs. show bred. 
The biggest difference I see is the labs are really hard charging both on the way out and on the way back in, whereas Tito is only hard charging on the way out. They tend to over-run marks, do sommersaults when they try to stop, and sometimes just charge around the field. To be fair, they are all young dogs (Scout is an old lady compared to them, lol). But still, they are very hard to control both on the line and in the field. They are a lot of dog, in the field and I hear in the house as well. One isn't even allowed to live in the house any more. 
But I will put Tito up against any of the 3 of them when it comes to courage, brains, and trainability. (ok, some days I wouldn't say that about trainability, lol). He has a much better nose than any of these labs do, and he "hunts smarter", too. He will get downwind of the AOF and then quarter back, whereas they tend to be more random. Each of them has been trained every day since they were 8 weeks old, so they have quite a training background already, much more than Tito does. One of them spent several months with a pro already. In any case, they will all be great running dogs if and when they get their heads screwed on straight.
All 3 labs swim much FASTER than Tito does, but none of them swim stronger and none of them have more water drive then he does. They will cheat the water, and he will plunge right in. He's not bothered by big water, in-and-out, etc. None of them will dive under if the bird sinks, Tito doesn't hesitate to do so.
So my point is, they have certain strengths that Tito will never have, and he has some that they will never have. Took me 20 minutes to say that, but that was what I was getting at.
I, too, have heard that water courage can be an issue in goldens, and it blows my mind. I'll bet GDGLI will agee, he and I both have water obsessed dogs that have NEVER had to be encouraged to get in the water! I have the opposite problem....





GoldenSail said:


> I think a good dog would be one that a novice could be successful at training and still do a darn good job and you could appreciate it. Would love to see a nice dog with a skilled handler!!
> 
> So maybe I should amend my statement to just being able to watch the best goldens work so I know what to strive for myself. I said field mainly because I want to make a fair assessment of my own dog's field ability and I would assume that most of the best goldens for hunt tests/field trials will be field bred because they were bred with hunting in mind.
> 
> ...and I would like to learn for myself what shortcomings are normal for dogs and those which are not...those that are acceptable....and those that are not. For example, I hear water courage can be a problem across the entire breed (not just the show lines).


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> *They tend to over-run marks, do sommersaults when they try to stop, and sometimes just charge around the field....they are very hard to control both on the line and in the field*...........





> each of them has been trained every day since they were 8 weeks old, *so they have quite a training background already*



Doesn't sound like it....


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I have seen some field bred goldens in my area (though not as many as the labs of course). Remi was just as good if not better than they were. Of course, this was just a few that I have seen. Remi is an excellent marker and judges always comment on that. She is from show lines. I think it all depends on the dog. Not all dogs will turn out the way they are expected to be whether it is show or field.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Real fun and productive week this week with my two friends Robin and Joan visiting. We got a remarkable amount of field training in the last three days. Here was our itinerary:

Sunday : 
1. overview of T with Fetcher (Fisher MH x Aimy MH), broke down loopy sit and addressed several stand-out issues, concentrated on fixing obedience/manners to, from and at the line. Worked on proper send technique/timing for handler.
2. Wagon wheel with Quack (Canyon MH x Soupy MH) and Fetcher
3. steady drills with Campbell (Hootie MH x Soupy MH)

Monday :
1. Review of "sit and turn drill" with Fetcher, review of obedience, stop on whistle to pile
2. No-no drill with Slater (1st time)
3. Steady drill with Campbell
Drive to Williston....
4. Establish back pile in Water T with Fetcher, stopped en route twice; no force
5. Same as #4 with Quack
6. Simple land blinds with Slater, Fisher & Sophie
7. 2 setups land singles with all dogs, low cover

Tuesday :
1. No-no drill day 2 with Slater
2. Obedience, sit-and-turn drill and stop to pile with Fetcher, immense improvement over first day
3. Demo'd walking baseball and come-in casts with Slater. 
4. Come-in cast drill with Quack
5. Steady singles with Campbell, added stick correction
Drove to Whisper Creek (St. Augustine)
6. Back pile in water for Fetcher. Forced en route and once in water for splashing & biting water on way to the pile. Stopped and took casts really nicely. Excellent momentum and determination, really nice work (2 sessions). 
7. Back pile in water for Quack (no force)
8. 3-in-a-row angle entry drill with Slater. 
9. Steady water singles for Campbell, Quack and Fetcher. Bird-in-mouth water singles for Slater & Fisher.
10. Lengthy swim & play session for all 

Wednesday :
Went to Santa Fe big field
1. Set up my pattern blind field and explained distances, expectations for dogs and why pattern blinds are both important and a hindrance.
2. Taught Fetcher first PB, or rather, demo'd how to teach each leg of the PBs, and he did remarkably well and we got him all the way back to the baseline in I think 5 sends (175 yds)....he is not really ready to come off of T yet, having still a few kinks to work out, but is very well prepared and should be a breeze to advance.
Drove out to big field near Kristin's, set up 3 marks and two blinds....
3. Steady singles for Campbell, Quack, Fetcher & Millie
4. Out of order triple and double blind for Slater & Sophie

Slater did REALLY nice on his triple and the first blind, but really broke down on the 2nd blind. It was a single white bumper with no stake and he ran by it a number of times without seeing it, tried returning to the other blind, took about a million casts, I was getting afraid he was too hot out there so eventually I sat him, had the nearest bird boy walk out to the blind, toss the bumper up, walk away, then I cast him to it. It was the only way I knew how to quickly get him out of trouble. Well no harm no foul (I think), he came back with it with tail up and acting very pleased with himself, and after getting some water to drink, dumped on his belly, paws and face and ice in ears he was raring to go. 

Fisher is still on injured reserve so only did the water marks, and ran around loose while we set up and broke down, which was fine with him. 

Really fun and productive days. I am very excited about Fetcher and how well he is doing.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

whew, what a week Annie! I should have sent Tito down to you 
These labs of which I speak are just so hard charging they cannot slow down when they get to the mark. They are INSANE amped dogs.
Two of them just turned 2 within the past 3 months, the other one turned 1 in December.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I have the opportunity to take a road trip to Ohio (about 12 hours) and spend an extended weekend training with Robert Reckart. I am seriously torn. 3 days of working field sounds wonderful, but I somehow think he feels a challenge to convert me to eCollar usage LOL. (He loves converting people and can not wait  ) I would hate to spend that amount of time driving etc just to find I am locking horns over the collar...but I would love to spend that amount of time working & training 

Has anyone worked with him?


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I, too, have heard that water courage can be an issue in goldens, and it blows my mind. I'll bet GDGLI will agee, he and I both have water obsessed dogs that have NEVER had to be encouraged to get in the water! I have the opposite problem....


Water courage, in the sense that I was using it, means way more than does the dog want to get in the water. It means way more even than will the dog cheat on a skinny mark or can the dog to MH water.

I am talking about a long angle entry, swimming a couple of hundred yards while holding a line in a stiff crosswind, get out get back in and swim another couple hundred yards in a crosswind through a stick pond. The kinds of things you need to do to win an AA stake.

You certainly do not need that for a great hunting companion or HT dog and my golden can easily to MH stuff, but he just doesn't (now) have what it takes for my pro or me to think he will succeed at the AA level, so we brought him home.

It is interesting to compare my golden to my lab, who is by Cosmo and an FC/AFC bitch. The black dog has the most intense drive you can imagine--line manners are always an issue--but the dog will retrieve until he literally drops dead. He is a very good marker, but he is an excellent 'getter' because he is so fast and determined. The downside is that he will not come in without a bird, even when I am whistling and yelling 'No! Here!'. If he blows past a short bird (his biggest problem running HTs) we are likely doing the walk of shame.

My golden is a better marker than the lab, much calmer on the line, but still goes (and comes back) at his full speed, even though he is not as fast. He does have a much better nose, which is good and bad in the games. His retrieving desire is excellent but not over the top like with the black dog.

In he house, the black dog is much calmer. He has an off switch while my golden has batteries that have to run down (hopefully this is partly because he is still young). The lab is much more cuddly.

The funniest thing about the two of them is how they view the dog truck. The lab hates it, although he knows when we are loading up good things will happen. The golden loves it. His favorite place is in his hole and if you let him, he will stay in the truck all day.

Dogs are such great critters--I just love all their different personalities and quirks.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> .
> I, too, have heard that water courage can be an issue in goldens, and it blows my mind. I'll bet GDGLI will agee, he and I both have water obsessed dogs that have NEVER had to be encouraged to get in the water! I have the opposite problem....


Water courage is not so much about the dog being willing to get in the water, although there are Goldens who have issues even with that. It is also not about water honesty--which is more the dog making the choice to take the water rather than the land when land is an easy option. For some dogs a lack of water courage contributes to cheating--for others cheating is actually about desire to get to the bird faster. Really intense water courage is more about being willing to take on really challenging water marks--like a 200 yard swim across a stick pond for the third bird that my friend's girl Silk did when she won the Open at the GRCA National in RI. 

Lots of FTers who run/breed Goldens for that venue look for Yankee's Smokin' Red Devil in pedigree precisely because he was known to throw water courage. He is in the pedigrees of most of the top performing FT goldens now for a reason. It can come with other baggage, including narrowed breeding options because he is so omnipresent which is why I have chosen not to go there in my breeding, but I know lots of folks who look for him when deciding to buy a dog or breed to a dog.

Edit: Tatnalls, we were writing at the same time!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> I have the opportunity to take a road trip to Ohio (about 12 hours) and spend an extended weekend training with Robert Reckart. I am seriously torn. 3 days of working field sounds wonderful, but I somehow think he feels a challenge to convert me to eCollar usage LOL. (He loves converting people and can not wait  ) I would hate to spend that amount of time driving etc just to find I am locking horns over the collar...but I would love to spend that amount of time working & training
> 
> Has anyone worked with him?


I have not worked with him, but have run tests on his property as Buckeye and some of the other Ohio clubs use his grounds when they have multiple stakes going and there is not enough land or water at the Nursery. His training assistant was running a couple of dogs in the test where Bonnie got her JH in October.

Bob is a wealth of knowledge, but he is committed to his training methods. He will be bluntly honest about what he thinks of your dogs abilities! Bonnie did get a "Nice dog." from him. He is in a power wheelchair now since the accident, and does seem to tire easily. however, there are lots of good Golden and other retriever people in the area, both with Cuyahoga and Buckeye, who I imagine would be there including the Bauman's, Ken Hrabak, Tara Perby, and a really nice Chessie lady, Kathy Heintel. So if it is an opportunity to get in three solid days of training on some different grounds, and get some fresh feedback from people who might have some different ideas for you to try it could be very worthwhile.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

It was raining on Monday, so we took the day off. Tuesday was beautiful, so we got out in the afternoon after my training partner finished work and used a narrow strip of land in an industrial mall that has some subtle mounds along the parking lot side of the grass. We ran as three sets, and did some cold honours for Tex (who wants to GO-GO-GO!), and did poison bird work. Bonnie of course just did the marks.

In the first setup we threw the right breaky bird first, then the middle mark, picked up the blind, and then the mark, and then did the long left mark.

In the second setup we threw the right bird, picked up the blind, then the mark, and then did the centre mark and left mark as singles.

We threw the third setup as a triple for the big dogs, thrown left bird, centre bird, and then right bird so they had to run past the shorter marks to get the go-bird, and picked up the blind last. We ended up rethrowing it for Breeze as Tex get a little antsy on line and had to be corrected--so that was good practice for an interference-with-the working-dog situation which can bother her as she is a sensitive dog.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> Lots of FTers who run/breed Goldens for that venue look for Yankee's Smokin' Red Devil in pedigree precisely because he was known to throw water courage. He is in the pedigrees of most of the top performing FT goldens now for a reason. It can come with other baggage, including narrowed breeding options because he is so omnipresent which is why I have chosen not to go there in my breeding, but I know lots of folks who look for him when deciding to buy a dog or breed to a dog.


I was told by a pro that knew him and trained a few of his offspring, that a trash can lid was needed to get those dogs through basics. They knew that the thing around his neck wasn't the real problem, rather it was the guy holding the other thing in his hand and would turn around and come after a trainer from time to time.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Last night we did three marks with a double blind, and worked on different tight blind concepts--behind the gun, under the arc, and over the old fall.

It was warm for us this early and the dogs are not acclimated to it yet, so we only did two setups. Breeze was not on her A-game last night. We did the first setup as singles, and the second as a triple, and she took a terrible line out to the middle bird which was her last pickup, so I resent her and then she was wide the other way and nearly got into the blind. Argghh!

Looks like a day off to day as we are having thunder and lightning. There are sunny breaks, but then lightning reappears--and I worked too long on a golf course to risk carrying big metal things around a field in those conditions!!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

sterregold said:


> It was raining on Monday, so we took the day off. Tuesday was beautiful, so we got out in the afternoon after my training partner finished work and used a narrow strip of land in an industrial mall that has some subtle mounds along the parking lot side of the grass.


Nice very efficient setup. I need to get better about moving the line and using the same gun stations. Seems the wind never cooperates with me, though.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> I was told by a pro that knew him and trained a few of his offspring, that a trash can lid was needed to get those dogs through basics. They knew that the thing around his neck wasn't the real problem, rather it was the guy holding the other thing in his hand and would turn around and come after a trainer from time to time.


..and thus the "other baggage" comment.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Tatnall said:


> Nice very efficient setup. I need to get better about moving the line and using the same gun stations. Seems the wind never cooperates with me, though.


Thanks--it takes some planning when setting up, but it really is efficient and allows you to get a lot of teaching in without the bother of breaking everything down and carting it across the field! We ran three dogs through the three setups in under 2 hours on Tuesday, from setup to breakdown, and without rushing.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Tatnall said:


> I was told by a pro that knew him and trained a few of his offspring, that a trash can lid was needed to get those dogs through basics. They knew that the thing around his neck wasn't the real problem, rather it was the guy holding the other thing in his hand and would turn around and come after a trainer from time to time.



I trained with Karl and Yankee many moons ago and threw a bunch of birds for him. I can promise you Yankee knew better than to come back at Karl. But I don't ever remember seeing a collar on Yankee. He used other methods. Might have been related to the females he was bred to. Collars weren't refined enough then and I did borrow one to work out some handling problems at distance but they could not be trusted in water.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> I trained with Karl and Yankee many moons ago and threw a bunch of birds for him. I can promise you Yankee knew better than to come back at Karl. But I don't ever remember seeing a collar on Yankee. He used other methods. Might have been related to the females he was bred to....


A friend I have in Kansas trained with him also when she got her start, and her assessment is about the same. She liked his temperament as an individual dog.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

From what I remember of Yankee that was the most beautiful dog I have ever seen. The picture on K9 Data doesn't match what I remember. In few weeks I am going back down to the Houston area and if Carl is still around I think I will try to pick his brain. I talked to him about 8 years ago and he was not doing well. I had gotten Radar and wanted to train with him. His health wouldn't allow it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> I have the opportunity to take a road trip to Ohio (about 12 hours) and spend an extended weekend training with Robert Reckart. I am seriously torn. 3 days of working field sounds wonderful, but I somehow think he feels a challenge to convert me to eCollar usage LOL. (He loves converting people and can not wait  ) I would hate to spend that amount of time driving etc just to find I am locking horns over the collar...but I would love to spend that amount of time working & training
> 
> Has anyone worked with him?


Well here are my thoughts. I have not trained with Bob nor seen a dog run that he has trained, but if you already know his training methods do not jive with yours then I would question why you would go so far out of your way to train with him, when there are many professional trainers much closer to you who probably just as qualified to help you. 
Personally if you are going to travel to Ohio to field train I would hook up with Mitch White, who does give private lessons, is willing to work with people who do not use collars, and is very much a "work with what you've got" type of instructor. I have nothing but good things to say about Mitch and would recommend him to anyone. 
When was the proposed road trip to Ohio? I am planning a trip there for most of June to run the HTs and train.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks 

The timing has not yet been worked out. I would be joining a friend so we would share the driving and expenses. I have frequently gone to camps, seminars etc and effectively dropped down to an auditing role if I feel it would be best for my dog. Watching Hunt Tests is not quite the same since you don't see how problems are addressed or prevented. 

The possibility for 3 days of watching experienced trainers working their dogs is very exciting  I usually learn tons, both what I want and what I don't want my dog and handling style to look like - I truly have no real mental image of what makes a retriever excel. I think if I had a clearer mental picture, I could more readily reach my goals. 

I thought I had a mental picture, but that dog started breaking down once he started hitting the Hunt Tests - because the collar came off? I honestly don't know but I saw the handler leaving the field in tears after his dog failed and it really hit home that perhaps I was not looking at the right elements. I saw another dog that passed, but was handled in what I considered a heavy manner - was is heavy handed, pass at all costs leg or was it a good job of handling because she knew what her dog needed at that moment in time? Again, I don't really have enough of a mental picture to gauge it. 

I think by watching more experienced trainers / pros and equally important, their dogs I can gain more perspective of the whole Hunt Test world. 



K9-Design said:


> Well here are my thoughts. I have not trained with Bob nor seen a dog run that he has trained, but if you already know his training methods do not jive with yours then I would question why you would go so far out of your way to train with him, when there are many professional trainers much closer to you who probably just as qualified to help you.
> Personally if you are going to travel to Ohio to field train I would hook up with Mitch White, who does give private lessons, is willing to work with people who do not use collars, and is very much a "work with what you've got" type of instructor. I have nothing but good things to say about Mitch and would recommend him to anyone.
> When was the proposed road trip to Ohio? I am planning a trip there for most of June to run the HTs and train.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Gotcha. I know what you're trying to find and how hard it can be. 
My only suggestion is to attend HTs and watch senior and master -- if you see someone who's handling style and dog work match what you're looking for, just talk to them!! If they live in the area they can either recommend their trainer or heck, invite you to train with them.
What you see at a HT is not just a show put on for game day. Dogs don't know the difference and what you see them do in a test is how they perceive the whole game. So basically if it looks good to you at a HT it probably came about in a good way. I mean the whole package, dog work, handling style, handler's personality, etc.
Watching any pro trainer will probably give you a better perspective...just not sure if 12 hours to Reckart will be the most efficient use of your time. Especially since you know going in you have different views on how it should be done. Are you wanting to be given a good reason TO use the collar or a good reason NOT to? In other words what would be your motive for going to him.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Great thread this week guys!
Thanks for the clarification on water courage. Having never seen a FT run, I don't really know what's expected of them, so I tend to have the limited thought process of just hunt tests. I do know that if you send Tito out on a 300 yard mark, swimming water the whole way, you might as well go get breakfast while waiting for him to get back. 
We had a good training session today. Did some drill work for the first time in a few weeks, and then some very nice water work. Then we did some land blinds, which I thought were awfully hard, and apparently Tito thought so, too. What I really didn't like is that the cover is so high he couldn't see me several times, and I had to walk up to cast. But he did a respectable job, and we all came away pleased. 
That was followed by a few walk-up singles, no problems there. Then the double, and Tito learned a very valuable lesson on the double. He got the go-bird no problem, headed out fine for the memory bird but then caught a whiff of the other 2 birds that Dan had loaded up (he had 3 wingers set up side by side) and headed for the wingers. Well....apparently he didn't know that Dan was pretty well hidden in the cover right near the wingers, or maybe didn't care, but Dan pretty much jumped out at him, yelling at him "GET AWAY FROM HERE!! WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING!! GO FIND THE BIRD". Tito jumped, he hates to be yelled at, and then went and found the bird and came back with it. I don't think he'll be going to sniff another winger any time soon. 
Dan said that in a test that would not have happened, because they wouldn't have 3 wingers all loaded up ready to go. But there could be a bucket of birds sitting there, and he needs to know it's just not okay to go over there. I took his word for it.
Oh the other thing that we did this week, and will do the next 2 weeks, is I didn't make any collar corrections at all, they all came from Dan. I did all the handling, but Dan did all the correcting.
Tito isn't "collar wise", he's "transmitter wise". He knows when I have the transmitter in my hand. So now he is getting corrections from a remote source. Also, my timing tends to be poor on corrections and for the next couple of weeks we want to make sure the corrections are perfect. Since I can't correct in tests anyway, I thought it was good for Dan to do it now. 
Then I asked if Dan thinks I should enter him in the tests coming up. I said that my 2 questions are:
1. Is it likely to cause any bad habits/problems etc. if I enter him and he doesn't do well? 
(answer...no, not at this point in his training. The worst that will happen is he will fail. But do be prepared to pick up your dog, thank the judges, and walk away if he's being a butthead).
2. Does he have at least a 50-50 chance of passing?
(answer....absolutely; much better than that)

(don't tell Tito but I went ahead and entered him in the tests) .


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Why don't you just always hold the transmitter? Of course if you reach for it in your pocket every time the dog is going to see that. Then again if it's always in your pocket that would be the cause of your late corrections.
Sorry but I think boogie men jumping out of bushes when a dog smells a bird on a memory bird is a fantastic way to convince the dog that memory birds and bird boys are scary.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Threw the dog in the water today--not literally though. She was happy to jump in for fun and on marks, but when I set up a pile there was some convincing that had to be initially done. She then wanted to cheat around the corner--I saw that look in her eye--but I firmly told her 'here, water' and she came. Good girl. The other sends were better. Sigh need to see pro and decide when to take the serious step of force to water!

Set-up a single t just to re-visit and she did great. Full speed ahead.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Because this way he gets corrected when he can't see the transmitter, such as at a test, when I can't be holding it!
I shared your feeling about boogey men, which is why I made the comment "I took his word for it". If I had been training with my training partners, I would not have handled it that way. But he didn't seem bothered by it on the next double, so I don't think any harm was done. Guess I'll find out next time we train!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Because this way he gets corrected when he can't see the transmitter, such as at a test, when I can't be holding it!


I know, but the dog learns that corrections only come when you are holding the transmitter because you only hold the transmitter when you correct him. If you hold it all the time then he has no idea that is part of the equation. He doesn't think your lanyard or your shoes are a sign a correction is coming, because you wear those every time you train. Hold the transmitter every time you send him and it will not be a clue to him.

Are you not going to correct him from here on out unless Dan can do it?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ah, I see your point. For now, I think he needs to learn that he gets corrected whether or not the transmitter is in my hand and then yes, I need to have it in my hand all the time (which is something Dan has been telling me forever...). At this point I have apparently taught him that if he doesn't see the transmitter, the rules of the game are different, and I need to fix that. 
Edit to add....I suppose the reason I don't normally have the transmitter in my hand is I so rarely use it these days. But I do realize that's been a mistake, and I need to fix it. 
What I mean by the rules are different is that the standard gets relaxed when the transmitter isn't in my hand. It's not major stuff. Rather, the stuff he's been getting nicked for, like yesterday at Dan's, is a low level nick and the timing is critical because it's for what Dan calls "sloppy work". It's not defiance, it's things like a slow sit on the sit whistle (Dan's definition of slow is pretty tight), not squaring up a sit on the sit whistle, things like that. Shopping the pile on drill work is another one. That type of stuff. Oh, imperfect heeling is a BIG pet peeve of Dan's, so things like getting slightly ahead of me when heeling earn him a nick. On the delivery, if he makes a bigger loop than Dan likes when coming to heel, he earns a nick. That's stuff Tito knows, and he's being sloppy because I am not holding him to tight enough standards. 
I need a lot of work on my handling skills. Holding the transmitter all the time, and getting the timing of the corrections right is just a small part of it I'm afraid.
I also need to work on aligning his spine correctly for blinds. I seem to have a problem with that. Then I fidgit with him on the line trying to get him correct. My casting needs work, although that's getting better. 
So much to learn and get right, sometimes it seems overwhelming.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks again.

Rob is very much aware that I do not use an eCollar and asks me to keep an open mind. He is also aware that I am fully aware by not using the collar I am perhaps handicapping my dogs chances or at the least taking a longer path. So I am hoping for a meeting in the middle ground, so to speak. But yes, that is the crux of my decision - do I travel that far and find we just cannot work together? or do I travel that far and have a great learning experience and a wonderful time? 

My motives for possibly going? The opportunity to watch and learn. The opportunity for plenty of bird work on land and water. I am actually thinking along the lines of how very useful agility and obedience training camps are - the ability to work your dog with other dogs, different perspectives and different environments.



K9-Design said:


> Gotcha. I know what you're trying to find and how hard it can be.
> My only suggestion is to attend HTs and watch senior and master -- if you see someone who's handling style and dog work match what you're looking for, just talk to them!! If they live in the area they can either recommend their trainer or heck, invite you to train with them.
> What you see at a HT is not just a show put on for game day. Dogs don't know the difference and what you see them do in a test is how they perceive the whole game. So basically if it looks good to you at a HT it probably came about in a good way. I mean the whole package, dog work, handling style, handler's personality, etc.
> Watching any pro trainer will probably give you a better perspective...just not sure if 12 hours to Reckart will be the most efficient use of your time. Especially since you know going in you have different views on how it should be done. Are you wanting to be given a good reason TO use the collar or a good reason NOT to? In other words what would be your motive for going to him.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

Not sure any of my dogs associate the transmitter with the collar? Maybe Dan took control to insure proper timing? At 100 yards, the dog doesn't know/ see the transmitter anyway. However, from your descriptions of when Tito is getting nicks....slow sit, sloppy sit, shopping etc. sounds like nagging to me. I would think one well timed meaningful correction ( more than a nick) would clean up that stuff. Indirect pressure.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I have learned transmitter in hand, whistle in mouth before sending dog every single time. Period. Been burned before by not being ready...so even though 99.9% of the time the dog might not need a correction you don't want to to miss the .1% times they do. It's actually pretty simple with the tritronics transmitters as I have learned and was taught how to hold it in my hand so that I can use it without looking at it and can switch it quickly when using different hands for casting.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Kathy, that's absolutely why Dan took control, because my timing isn't very good most of the time. If one is correcting a slow sit, timing is everything.
Taking the lanyard off of the transmitter would probably help, too, because I suspect THAT's what he sees more than the transmitter itself. Just thought of that right now.
Not sure of the nagging versus a more meaningful correction, I'd have to ask Dan about it. He is NOT afraid to give meaningful corrections when they are called for. Maybe he is differentiating between the level of the infraction? Just thinking out loud here. For example, once yesterday during a drill we had 2 piles out about 50 yards, that were about 10 yards away from each other (lining drill). Sent him to the left pile, he arrived there safely, then turned and headed directly for the other pile. He got more than a nag for that stunt. 
BTW, in about a week my property will be nice for training, the alfalfa is growing already. 



KathyG said:


> Not sure any of my dogs associate the transmitter with the collar? Maybe Dan took control to insure proper timing? At 100 yards, the dog doesn't know/ see the transmitter anyway. However, from your descriptions of when Tito is getting nicks....slow sit, sloppy sit, shopping etc. sounds like nagging to me. I would think one well timed meaningful correction ( more than a nick) would clean up that stuff. Indirect pressure.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

Would love to come train. Just overhauled my winger after 6 years of use so should be ready to go!

Don't let him get sloppy...just sayin'.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Been looking for your email address, can't find it. Please send me a PM with your email addy!
I have let him get away with LOTS of slop. Seriously.



KathyG said:


> Would love to come train. Just overhauled my winger after 6 years of use so should be ready to go!
> 
> Don't let him get sloppy...just sayin'.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I freely admit to being really bad about this. Working to fix it. It's not the only thing I do wrong.....there are lots of them. Letting him get sloppy is the worst one. 
I know why I do it, too, not that this makes it acceptable. Sometimes I am so pleased with the "main" thing that happened, I forget about the "little things" that will come back and bite you in the butt later. For example, he heads out on a really nice line on a long, tough blind, full steam ahead with outstanding attitude. Takes the sit whistle every time, waits patiently for the cast. Takes wonderful literal casts. Picks up the bird and comes straight back with it. Delivers beautifully, sitting with tail wagging.
So I ignore the fact that the sits were slower than they should have been....
Or maybe exact same scenario, but the sits are awesome, but when he gets back he makes a bigger loop on his "return to heel position" than he needs to. I let him get away with it because I'm so thrilled with his performance...





GoldenSail said:


> I have learned transmitter in hand, whistle in mouth before sending dog every single time. Period. Been burned before by not being ready...so even though 99.9% of the time the dog might not need a correction you don't want to to miss the .1% times they do. It's actually pretty simple with the tritronics transmitters as I have learned and was taught how to hold it in my hand so that I can use it without looking at it and can switch it quickly when using different hands for casting.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Oh I hear you Barb I have my own issues as well. Took a few times of 'Oh crap what _*is*_ she doing??? Where's my whistle? Where's my transmitter?' for me to get a clue. Took me even longer to tighten down on the line manners because I was so happy that she was happy, I didn't want to take forever to get to the line, I just wanted the reward of the retrieve (that's the big deal, right?) etc etc.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

yep, you totally get what I'm saying. My issue hasn't been line manners, I've been really tight about those, it's "field manners". 
But then where do you draw the line? Do you allow one infraction? Two? You accept a slow sit. Then you allow a slightly crooked sit. Then you ignore a loop on the return to heel. Suddenly you realize (or are told by your pro!) that you are not putting nearly the expectations on the dog that he is capable of. And worse, you are setting the whole tone of the session as the dog is in charge. So I need to crack down (on myself!) and realize that ZERO infractions is the right number.



GoldenSail said:


> Took me even longer to tighten down on the line manners because I was so happy that she was happy, I didn't want to take forever to get to the line, I just wanted the reward of the retrieve (that's the big deal, right?) etc etc.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

GoldenSail said:


> I have learned transmitter in hand, whistle in mouth before sending dog every single time. Period. Been burned before by not being ready...so even though 99.9% of the time the dog might not need a correction you don't want to to miss the .1% times they do. It's actually pretty simple with the tritronics transmitters as I have learned and was taught how to hold it in my hand so that I can use it without looking at it and can switch it quickly when using different hands for casting.


You nailed it on this one.
By the time you put the whistle in your mouth and get the transmitter out your pocket you have missed your "teaching moment"
Timing is absolutely everything!!
Whistle in mouth, fingers on on the buttons. Doesn't mean you have use the transmitter every time but well timed corrections means less corrections later.
I am guilty of going for long periods of time without having to use the collar and too much confidence in the dog. Then when I do need to correct I am not ready and not expecting it. Therefore missing a "GOLDEN" moment to teach.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

Barb, I created a TERRIBLE problem with my toller by allowing things to slip and get sloppy when he was at the same training stage as Tito. Never again. The dog is MH, HRCH plus other stuff so Ive learned to work around it. He is very talented and very cocky. 

There was nothing cuter than this little dog charging back from a mark and setting himself up for the next one. However, after delivery of the bird, he would scoot out a few feet with that ' I know where it is...send me already' look. So I did. I'll just say its nearly impossible to line a dog up for a blind when they are in front of you. That created a constant fight between the two of us that will still cause problems from time to time. He prefers that I'm out of his space and that I leave the driving up to him. Not always a good thing. 

When coming into heel he also likes to turn away from me in a show of dominance. Something else I'm always on guard for. Although I will say this past weekend while working a wagon wheel, he started to turn away about mid way through the drill. As he went passed, I pinched his loin. He screamed like a little girl and dropped the bumper. (likely the surprise). I was able to correct for the dropped bumper and for the rest of the week he's been good. But these are only bandaid fixes. I know at a test when he is full of himself, he will resort to the old habits.

I've taken great strides with my youngest golden to prevent this by maintaining a very high criteria and I will say he is a lovely blind dog and very cooperative. But then, he is not the same type of dog as the toller.

Kathy


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Yay finally decided there was no sense in waiting any longer and entered our two hunt tests next month!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Is that the guy you've been running in agility lately? He's pretty high octane!
I can see the writing on the wall with Tito heading toward some issues if I don't tighten up NOW. He has a very independent streak when he's in the field (totally different dog than you see in agility where he's attentive and willing) and will flip me the middle paw at a moment's notice. We had some pretty big battles over autocasting. He'll sometimes still ignore a sit whistle if he scents the bird. Given a choice of cover/no cover we still fight over it, as he will head into the cover EVERY time, the heavier the cover, the happier he is. Makes for some difficult blinds, because the little brat is determined to head into the heaviest cover he can find (dontcha know that's where birds are, lady??) and then we can't see each other!
When coming into heel Tito tends to head behind me a couple of feet and scope out the area. The drying rack *might* be of particular interest some time, although we have hung them in training to be sure that he's not going to head for it and so far he hasn't. 
I worry that too many/too harsh corrections will ruin his attitude. My pro assures me that he has so much instinct and drive it's just not going to happen because they are FAIR, EARNED corrections. 
No time like the present to fix this. I have to crack down on myself, so that I can crack down on him. It's hard with your first dog to not get carried away with how cute he looks, what a good job he's doing, etc. and let the obedience slip. 



KathyG said:


> Barb, I created a TERRIBLE problem with my toller by allowing things to slip and get sloppy when he was at the same training stage as Tito. Never again. The dog is MH, HRCH plus other stuff so Ive learned to work around it. He is very talented and very cocky.
> 
> There was nothing cuter than this little dog charging back from a mark and setting himself up for the next one. However, after delivery of the bird, he would scoot out a few feet with that ' I know where it is...send me already' look. So I did. I'll just say its nearly impossible to line a dog up for a blind when they are in front of you. That created a constant fight between the two of us that will still cause problems from time to time. He prefers that I'm out of his space and that I leave the driving up to him. Not always a good thing.
> 
> ...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My goodness Barb!! And here I thought I was alone on this forum with sometimes getting caught up in the sheer beauty of my dog  



hotel4dogs said:


> .
> No time like the present to fix this. I have to crack down on myself, so that I can crack down on him. It's hard with your first dog to not get carried away with how cute he looks, what a good job he's doing, etc. and let the obedience slip.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I worry that too many/too harsh corrections will ruin his attitude. My pro assures me that he has so much instinct and drive it's just not going to happen because they are FAIR, EARNED corrections.


Yes this is what frightens me too! Particularly being in transition I just want to whoop and cheer when she finds the bumper and look past other things...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

oh there's nothing cuter than His Fuzzybuttness heading out for a bird  !



Sunrise said:


> My goodness Barb!! And here I thought I was alone on this forum with sometimes getting caught up in the sheer beauty of my dog


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have found that, the harder the tasks get, the more this becomes true. When he just marked a single and ran out and got it, I was more strict with him. But as the jobs get harder, I'm so pleased when he does them well that I get more and more lax on looking past other things.



GoldenSail said:


> Yes this is what frightens me too! Particularly being in transition I just want to whoop and cheer when she finds the bumper and look past other things...


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> I have found that, the harder the tasks get, the more this becomes true. When he just marked a single and ran out and got it, I was more strict with him. But as the jobs get harder, I'm so pleased when he does them well that I get more and more lax on looking past other things.


There you go...the beginning of the end that's how it started with us. Field is no different than agility or obedience in that when you get to a test you want the dog to be underwhelmed. And like agility and obedience, their performances are way different at a show versus training. Thus the importance to maintain the high standards on the things you can control during training.

Yes the dog you've seen in agility is the really good/bad dog. He was off for a year recovering from a dislocated hip and messed up illiosais muscle. He has come back stronger and faster than ever......

Kathy


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

There certainly is a fine balance between control and attitude. It is different for each dog at each stage of their training. Sometimes that right balance comes from letting some things slide and keeping some aspects under tight control. "Control and correct everything" is not always the answer. Then again most people let something slide for no reason other than they have never viewed the problem as significant, when in reality it is.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Whew, you'd never guess that guy was recovering from any type of physical ailment!



KathyG said:


> There you go...the beginning of the end that's how it started with us. Field is no different than agility or obedience in that when you get to a test you want the dog to be underwhelmed. And like agility and obedience, their performances are way different at a show versus training. Thus the importance to maintain the high standards on the things you can control during training.
> 
> Yes the dog you've seen in agility is the really good/bad dog. He was off for a year recovering from a dislocated hip and messed up illiosais muscle. He has come back stronger and faster than ever......
> 
> Kathy


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I totally agree, especially the part that it is different for each dog and at each stage of their training. 
I also think that the newer you are to field, the harder it is to achieve the correct balance, and the more you worry about not doing so.





K9-Design said:


> There certainly is a fine balance between control and attitude. It is different for each dog at each stage of their training. Sometimes that right balance comes from letting some things slide and keeping some aspects under tight control. "Control and correct everything" is not always the answer. Then again most people let something slide for no reason other than they have never viewed the problem as significant, when in reality it is.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Hey, my training post was going to be about the little things this week. It looks like it has already been written. LOL 

We have been training here in really crummy weather, cold, rain, wind, sleet.... we want Atta Girls for getting out there. Due to weather we're still in a holding pattern for water work. So it's land blinds, lining drills, singles and doubles for us.

We ran with the Pro a couple of days ago. The blind of the day was a challenge for us. Line was on the top of one hill and the pile was two hills over with water off the the right. The Pro and I had a good conversation about how to cast her out of suction. We use a couple of small step before the cast for emphasis. Next up was a series of doubles. The two "hardest ones" were, a memory bird double that was inline with the memory bird of the the previous double. The dogs had to run through the scent from the previous fall and the drag back from all the prior dogs plus the scent from this mark was blowing away from them. Winter sped out, she slowed down a bit when she hit the old fall but kept going though it and made it out to the AOF and picked up the bird. You could almost see her thinking "I know its father out but what is up with all this scent". The other tough one was a 200 yard memory bird that the dog had to drive out over a few small rolling hills to get to. Again, the wind was blowing the scent away from us and no help, a gunner was ready to double throw if needed since it was run as the memory bird. Winter picked up the go bird, sent her for the 2nd bird, she sped out and when she got to the small hills slowed down but kept moving toward the bird, she was a little off line but drove up the last hill got behind the bird, caught the scent she zeroed in. Earlier some of the dogs at our level broke down in the rolling hills and the gunner double threw to get them to the mark. Winter and I got this week those quiet "she's looking good Holly" remarks from the more reserved members of the training group this week.

Anyway, back to the small things. I'm also guilty of forgetting to handle my dog because I'm caught up in watching her work. 
I think the leap from Junior to Senior is not only big for the dogs but for the handlers too, at least for this first time handler. I just don't think and react fast enough and the controllor _is_ in my hand... and I don't want to give a poorly timed correction and cause problems. Looping sits are a good example for me, by the time I decide to correct she is sitting. The other day she broke on a double and she was quite a ways out before I was over my surpised and called her back. I'm just not ready for all of the what if's. 

This week-end we finds us going to a 2 day obedience seminar of all things, so no field work for us.


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## KathyG (Nov 21, 2011)

"Control and correct everything"

Of course not.......

Kathy


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

First off, ATTA GIRL for getting out there and training despite the lousy weather!!!! You go girl!

The rest of it, you could have been writing about me rather than you!




hollyk said:


> Anyway, back to the small things. I'm also guitly of forgetting to handle my dog because I'm caught up in watching her work.
> I think the leap from Junior to Senior is not only big for the dogs but for the handlers too, at least for this first time handler. I just don't think and react fast enough and the controllor _is_ in my hand... and I don't want to give a poorly timed correction and cause problems. Looping sits are a good exsample for me, by the time I decide to correct she is sitting. The other day she broke on a double and she was quite a ways out before I was over my surpised and called her back. I'm just not ready for all of the what if's.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> There certainly is a fine balance between control and attitude. It is different for each dog at each stage of their training. Sometimes that right balance comes from letting some things slide and keeping some aspects under tight control. "Control and correct everything" is not always the answer. Then again most people let something slide for no reason other than they have never viewed the problem as significant, when in reality it is.


I disagree with "letting things slide and keeping some aspects under control". You set a standard and method and continue with it. The dog knows what to expect and if you are consistent in your method the dog will do same on test or trial day (at least that is your best chance of getting it). They like structure and a routine they are used to. Inconsistency allows them to make decisions on their own and in my opinion causes confusion. Set a high standard and stick to it. The balance is achieved by helping them achieve your expectations and being rewarded for it with success. If you allow something one day and correct for it the next what message do expect the dog get from it.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> The rest of it, you could have been writing about me rather than you!


There are a few of us on here in the same place, taking our 1st field dog through Junior with an eye on Senior/Master. We seem to be having similar experiences and struggles while we are learning to become the handlers of Senior/Master dogs. It is nice to hear that I'm not the only one.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

hollyk said:


> There are a few of us on here in the same place, taking our 1st field dog through Junior with an eye on Senior/Master. We seem to be having similar experiences and struggles while we are learning to become the handlers of Senior/Master dogs. It is nice to hear that I'm not the only one.


You are far from being alone. I would suggest you get *The Art and Science of Handling Retrievers* by Dave Rorem

As far as "control and correct everything". Stop what you are doing and teach it before you progress. Failure do so will show up later. You need sound Basics and Transition to move forward. If you don't have them you are setting your pup up for failure. Just passing on lessons learned a lot of them the hard way.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Took my son pup ATEM with us to train today and holy smokes Jige was horrible. It was he forgot everything he had learned except for heeling,sitting and honoring. Almost every return he ran to ATEM first. I ended up putting him back on a long line and having my son throw some very short marks. 

Going to take ATEM again tomorrow I hope Jige will have his head on better. Had to remind myself of what that Crufts lady said......if you want a party goer, unpredictability and a dog that will make an arse of you ...get a golden.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Radarsdad said:


> I disagree with "letting things slide and keeping some aspects under control". You set a standard and method and continue with it. The dog knows what to expect and if you are consistent in your method the dog will do same on test or trial day (at least that is your best chance of getting it). They like structure and a routine they are used to. Inconsistency allows them to make decisions on their own and in my opinion causes confusion. Set a high standard and stick to it. The balance is achieved by helping them achieve your expectations and being rewarded for it with success. If you allow something one day and correct for it the next what message do expect the dog get from it.


In principle I agree, but there is also an element of reading the dog, and seeing what they need to maintain attitude. My Breeze can be a very sensitive dog, so if I hammer at her about small stuff it can backfire into a poor attitude about our other training. My Winter on the other hand is a "give an inch, take a mile dog" so when he was training I had to be a drill sergeant about that standard on line.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Well we missed the hunt test this morning. Cannon obviously got stung by a bee or something yesterday evening, his whole muzzle was swollen. This morning the swelling went down a little...but decided to skip today even though he was acting fine. Looks better now, so hoping we can go tomorrow.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Well, woke up early this morning in the pouring rain and drove an hour through cow country, into a cow pasture and mud, just to give my dog the opportunity to retrieve ducks. I must be crazy now.










The view from my car driving in. So glad I have this car there is no way I could have pulled my station wagon through this mile of wet pasture. It surely would have gotten stuck and/or bottomed out. As it is I only heard one good thunk coming in and one on the way out.

I must be lucky because I drew a low number again and was done training fairly early. It was no longer raining by the time I got there, but it was wet, muddy, and cold. I have not done much with my car set-up yet so I've kept Scout in a soft crate in the back with the top popped and the tailgate part up. Much to my shock when they started running dogs (gun noise and all) I turned my head to see my golden running straight toward me! She had torn through the soft crate and jumped over the tailgate! OMG! No more soft crates, apparently. I've used that one multiple times in many places without ever having any issues with dog escapee.

...which meant that I now had a muddy dog to put back in the car who would not be contained in a crate. So...the car is very dirty inside and out. At least the interior is rubber and the seats are resistant to that kind of stuff. *cough cough*

The set-up was a walk-up double with a bulldog live flier diversion thrown after the dog picked up the go-bird. They recommended picking up the memory bird first and then the bulldog because you can handle on the bulldog. It was a training day so it was emphasized not to test your dog and that if you needed to build it they would help you. 

So I built it by running the memory bird and bulldog and she did great! We then did the walk-up and she did a god job of sitting and focusing. The crux is she didn't move to watch the second bird (just turned her head) and when she was sent it was hard to say which one she was going for until several yards...and she went for the wrong one. First time I can ever think if her going out of order. If I were to do it again I would have called her back and re-thrown the marks, but no, I was dumb and let her pick it up and then tried to send her for the other one. Well, when I sent her she went off and I had to handle her to what was supposed to be the go-bird. She got that one and on her way back they did the bulldog then which she watched but came back. They kept telling me I could run the bulldog as a blind but she had watched it fall so I just sent it as a mark and she was fine.

They had two blinds. One on the outside for senior dogs, and one down the middle of the double and past the marks for master dogs. I just ran the senior blind and handled her to it fairly well. It took two angle backs handles to get her there as she started fading off line and I am trying to be better about 'challenging the line' and not letting her stray too far before stopping (I'm told I am slow on the whistle, need to fix that--part of it is an urge to let her roll).

And we weren't the only golden there! It was also funny because someone saw me with a golden and said 'you must be entered in those hunt tests next month, because we almost never see goldens.' Yup, that's me. 

And the best part? The guy last year who told me goldens were a 'woman's dog' jokingly mentioned how nicely Scout did and that she's come a long way in just a year.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

kfayard said:


> Well we missed the hunt test this morning. Cannon obviously got stung by a bee or something yesterday evening, his whole muzzle was swollen. This morning the swelling went down a little...but decided to skip today even though he was acting fine. Looks better now, so hoping we can go tomorrow.


Oh bummer! Good luck tomorrow. Double header? Those are nice.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

...Oh and I have to add that she was really good in the blind thank goodness. Finally learning how to collect herself better (although she still whined like a nut and shook horribly with excitement).


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Well, woke up early this morning in the pouring rain and drove an hour through cow country, into a cow pasture and mud, just to give my dog the opportunity to retrieve ducks. I must be crazy now.
> 
> ....
> I must be lucky because I drew a low number again and was done training fairly early. It was no longer raining by the time I got there, but it was wet, muddy, and cold. I have not done much with my car set-up yet so I've kept Scout in a soft crate in the back with the top popped and the tailgate part up. Much to my shock when they started running dogs (gun noise and all) I turned my head to see my golden running straight toward me! She had torn through the soft crate and jumped over the tailgate! OMG! No more soft crates, apparently. I've used that one multiple times in many places without ever having any issues with dog escapee.
> ...


Crazy, what's crazy about that? If you're crazy, that makes me.....oh don't want to think about it!!!

I think I said something about the security of soft crates with birdy dogs--sorry about the destruction, but YOU GO SCOUT!

Good for you on believing your dog in how you ran the setup today.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Good training session for us today. We went to a new farm that has several hay fields we can use, and a pond, and a swampy pond for when it gets warm enough.

So today we set up in a field with a series of rolling hills creating gullies through which the dogs had to run. When they were below the crest of the first hill, the would lose sight of the AOF of the mark, meaning they had to hold that line and drive through to get the mark. 

Bonnie did AWESOME on the marks in both setups. For Breeze I ran the first setup as singles left to right, running the left blind as a poison bird blind after the left mark was thrown. She was quite worried about it, and is was rather ugly. Then we ran the next two marks, and did the right blind--much better! she started to fade left as she approached the top of the first hill, so I stopped her and gave her a right back and she carried that line through the gully and all the way to the blind which was out around 185 yards.

Second setup we ran the marks right to left, picking up the right and centre birds, and then leaving the left bird as a poison bird and then doing that left blind. MUCH better--she looked out well, and took a good initial line, then did a decent job on the right blind as well.

Peachy lines are the blinds, aqua lines are the marks. The dark brown blob was a rock cairn at the bottom of the gully surrounded by taller grass, and the taupe areas are the tops of the hills.


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