# Beginner Starting Out



## ArkansasGold

Ask Anney!!!
Do you know if he likes birds? It will be much easier if he likes birds and doesn’t think they are icky and scary. 

Also, actual duck hunting is quite different than hunt tests and WCs.


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## Tagrenine

He loves to bark and chase birds. I have little doubts he would put a dead bird in his mouth, he puts EVERYTHING in his mouth. I have to figure out how to get access to frozen birds to try him on. The birds in SFlorida (storks, herons, parrots) are what he sees more often that ducks or similar waterfowl, so I'm hoping a duck or pheasant is like old news to him. Another issue I'm going to have is figuring out how to get him accustom to gunfire. He's fine with fireworks and such, but I don't have a gun LOL.


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## K9-Design

Hey! OK I've connected the dots now 
You will be able to take a bird or two home with you from the hunt test.
Gunfire intro is actually really easy. When the dog starts training on the regular, they will hear the gunfire for the other dogs, while they wait in the car. Since it's so far away, they will think nothing of it. At first we don't use the gun with new dogs and puppies. We get them absolutely hooked on retrieving, until they are crazy about it and pulling their owners to the line to hurry up and go. The thrower simply shoots the gun right before he throws and the dog will immediately associate the gun with a retrieve and think it's the best thing ever. Gun-shyness is actually really rare, so don't even worry about it. You read old training books and they act like it's an epidemic LOL


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## ArkansasGold

Tagrenine said:


> He loves to bark and chase birds. I have little doubts he would put a dead bird in his mouth, he puts EVERYTHING in his mouth. I have to figure out how to get access to frozen birds to try him on. The birds in SFlorida (storks, herons, parrots) are what he sees more often that ducks or similar waterfowl, so I'm hoping a duck or pheasant is like old news to him. Another issue I'm going to have is figuring out how to get him accustom to gunfire. He's fine with fireworks and such, but I don't have a gun LOL.


Ha! You’d be surprised how many dogs love to chase live birds and anything else that moves, but hate dead ducks. HATE them. They are icky and smelly.


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## Tagrenine

Thank you both!! Here's hoping my training stuff gets here and I can figure out how to start. It's an overwhelming endeavor to take on. Another thing is I bought some books on positive gun dog training and another series on traditional (e-collar) training.

Is the style dependent on the dog? I've seen people talk about how soft and sensitive the show line dogs are, but Felix is a much harder dog than the dogs people describe and while most of our training is positive, we do sometimes use corrective tools to help communicate what we want. On that end, I have no experience with an e collar and I'm hoping these resources give tips on how to introduce in case the positive route isn't meshing with either of us.

I'm going to chat with Beth Sokohl in PA today and talk to her about her program, since she works mostly with show line dogs. Hopefully going to meet Scott at the hunt test and talk to him too.

@Maegan - he might. I'm also worried he might try to eat it or strip the feather off it lol. There are a lot of things that I worry about because we have let him develop habits that would definitely be detrimental in a hunting dog LOL. We definitely have our work cut out for us.


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## ArkansasGold

Not trying to be a negative Nelly with that comment. LOL I may or may not be speaking from experience. 😅 

I'm glad you're trying it out!


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## K9-Design

"Positive field training" is for people who aren't serious about properly training their dogs for field work. They want a feel-good session. 
All of my dogs are properly force trained and collar conditioned and clearly they're doing just fine. It's a dog -- train it!
Beth is a GREAT TRAINER and that would be very ideal for you! Plus Kelly could work with him on show handling


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## ArkansasGold

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you both!! Here's hoping my training stuff gets here and I can figure out how to start. It's an overwhelming endeavor to take on. Another thing is I bought some books on positive gun dog training and another series on traditional (e-collar) training.
> 
> Is the style dependent on the dog? I've seen people talk about how soft and sensitive the show line dogs are, but Felix is a much harder dog than the dogs people describe and while most of our training is positive, we do sometimes use corrective tools to help communicate what we want. On that end, I have no experience with an e collar and I'm hoping these resources give tips on how to introduce in case the positive route isn't meshing with either of us.
> 
> I'm going to chat with Beth Sokohl in PA today and talk to her about her program, since she works mostly with show line dogs. Hopefully going to meet Scott at the hunt test and talk to him too.
> 
> @Maegan - he might. I'm also worried he might try to eat it or strip the feather off it lol. There are a lot of things that I worry about because we have let him develop habits that would definitely be detrimental in a hunting dog LOL. We definitely have our work cut out for us.


I have a huge crush on Kelly and Beth's dog Sherlock. 

I don't think of show line dogs as being soft as a rule. Most serious field people (meaning beyond JH) consider e-collars as non-negotiable, but that is not my area of expertise.


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## Emmdenn

This is a great topic!! Denver is SO birdy I have been toying with the idea of getting him into some hunt training as well since we won’t be doing conformation with him and I’d like to do something with him that he enjoys.

I’m not a hunter and probably never will be, but I have many friends who hunt and would be fun to go with them and bring Denver to get birds. There is a serious hunt/field trainer near me that I was contemplating reaching out to for introductory lessons, perhaps there is someone near you who can help you get started?


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## gdgli

Tagrenine

I happen to like Randy Jones in PA. He is a hunt test trainer. He limits the number of dogs he trains. He also brings them in the house with him. He has even brought them into a motel with him while at a hunt test. I sent a friend to him and he was very pleased.


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## Tagrenine

Thank you! I'm really excited to talk with her. Even if I have to do some foundation work here, I have been seriously considering sending him up north. I'll miss him a ton, but it'll give me the time I need to work the 72 hours a week I need to to pay for training 🤣 

I have no issue with him wearing an e collar, I don't think he's going to have any complaints. 

One more question - what differentiates a dog that is actually used for hunting from a dog that does hunt tests? 

Thank you George! I'll definitely look into him too, does he have a website or kennel I can use to contact? 

@emma - I have a retriever club just over an hour north of me that I'll probably start attending. Unfortunately they only train into May and it's monthly, so I'm hoping I can talk to one of the trainers there about private lessons or something similar.


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## Ffcmm

ooo this is going to be exciting and it sounds really fun, please post lots of photos I will live vicariously through you & Felix!


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> After a recent trip to TN, a couple of my friends remarked that I should have Felix trained to bring birds back because they'd like to take him hunting.


I think YOU should train him.
FWIW, you will have a better chance of getting good training advice from field trial trainers than hunt test trainers. 
I am not saying there are no good trainers in the hunt test world, there are some. There are also a bunch of bad ones that know much more about taking your money than training dogs.
A relatively poorly trained retriever can acquire a bunch of Hunt Test ribbons and titles that may appear impressive to those that don't know how little it takes to earn them. 
I suppose that statement will offend some, not my intent. I respect anyone that trains their own dog. To make progress in training you have to be honest with yourself about what level your dog is at. A JH title is just an indicator that you are on track. Same can be said for attaining QAA in a field trial, it is a step in the right direction.

There are many good resources to help you, here are a few.





Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - Training a Retriever Puppy


Labrador retriever puppy training. Learn from experienced professional Bill Hillmann. Teach your dog to force fetch, sit, and more.



www.hawkeyemedia.net









YBS Media







www.ybsmedia.com









YBS Media







www.ybsmedia.com





Feel free to PM me if you need more info. I don't pretend to know it all but I do know a great many people that know a lot.


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## gdgli

Tagrenine

Try Saabi Sil Retrievers. You can also find him on Facebook.


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## DblTrblGolden2

K9-Design said:


> "Positive field training" is for people who aren't serious about properly training their dogs for field work. They want a feel-good session.
> All of my dogs are properly force trained and collar conditioned and clearly they're doing just fine. It's a dog -- train it!
> Beth is a GREAT TRAINER and that would be very ideal for you! Plus Kelly could work with him on show handling


^^^TRUTH^^^

Don't underestimate a conformation bred Golden! I have Moe and Cruz and am working with a Pro Field and Hunt trainer. The first day I pulled Cruz out of the box (Conformation Bred) he sort of gave me a funny look. To really top it off my trainer is a big lab guy. I smiled at him and said "I think he's got what it takes". It's been a few months and my trainer told me several weeks ago that Cruz has every bit of drive that Moe has. Cruz is also fast going out and coming back, maybe not as fast as Moe, but fast. Cruz loves the learning drills that Moe hates. I have a field bred and a conformation bred and they are both trained the same. I allow for the differences in their personalities, but I expect nothing less from my conformation bred then I do my field bred. Our goal for both dogs is MH. Moe is running for SH this Spring and Cruz will be doing his JH but we are already training way beyond that level. 

Positive training may get you through a JH if your lucky. I'm not sure that on a really hot day a dog with positive only will want to bring a duck back that 50 other dogs has mouthed and hold it to deliver to hand. A force fetched, or conditioned hold, trained dog will. I bought the positive only training books and read them. I've had hunt trained dogs for a long time and I ended up going back to what I know. For me the key to training a Golden is to make sure they completely understand what your asking them to do. I think of teaching with the e-collar as reinforcing what they are learning. 

The difference in a test dog and a hunting dog in my opinion is finesse. A test dog has to do everything perfectly, a hunting dog just has to do it to suit the handler. Hunting dogs are also put in some situations you would never have at a test. Test dogs are sometimes put in tougher situations and have to work with the handler more where a hunter may be able to go out and help the dog and handler in a test would have to do it from the line. (I own both)


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## DblTrblGolden2

SRW said:


> I think YOU should train him.
> FWIW, you will have a better chance of getting good training advice from field trial trainers than hunt test trainers.
> I am not saying there are no good trainers in the hunt test world, there are some. There are also a bunch of bad ones that know much more about taking your money than training dogs.
> A relatively poorly trained retriever can acquire a bunch of Hunt Test ribbons and titles that may appear impressive to those that don't know how little it takes to earn them.
> I suppose that statement will offend some, not my intent. I respect anyone that trains their own dog. To make progress in training you have to be honest with yourself about what level your dog is at. A JH title is just an indicator that you are on track. Same can be said for attaining QAA in a field trial, it is a step in the right direction.
> 
> There are many good resources to help you, here are a few.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Labrador Retriever Puppy Training - Hawkeyemedia - Training a Retriever Puppy
> 
> 
> Labrador retriever puppy training. Learn from experienced professional Bill Hillmann. Teach your dog to force fetch, sit, and more.
> 
> 
> 
> www.hawkeyemedia.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YBS Media
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ybsmedia.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YBS Media
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ybsmedia.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to PM me if you need more info. I don't pretend to know it all but I do know a great many people that know a lot.


I also agree with this. You have to be involved in the training. You can do a board and train as long as the trainer is also willing to teach YOU how to handle the dog. You then have to bring the dog home and do the work each day. I prefer to have a Pro that I train with weekly. I'm also in a couple of training groups. I'm not opposed to board and train for specific things, but I'm not a believer in sending a dog away and him magically working for me when he comes home. I drive an hour and 15 minutes one direction every Tuesday to train privately with our Pro. I'm so happy he's that close. I come home and work all week on whatever he tells me and then we go back. I've done board and train in the past (2 months of it) and was not happy with what I got. The trainer was very well known and I may have had to high of expectations.


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## Tagrenine

You guys are all so wonderful. 

@SRW - thank you so much for the links. I'm trying to find as many resources I can to start him myself. If I can train him myself I will, but I'm really hoping I can find a mentor to let me know I'm going in the right track. And another thing, he is much older than most retriever puppies when they start training. Will I still start him the way outlined in those books/DVDs? Or will he need it adjusted because he's an older dog that has already been allowed to develop bad habits? 

Thank you George!! I did find the FB. 

@DblTrbl - I hope I have the same experience! I definitely have my work cut out for me. I have to really work on basic OB and I'm going to start working on "hold" within the next week. 

Another thing that I will need to do is find a way to get him conditioned. He'll be useless as a hunting dog if he is out of shape. That said when we were up north where the weather was much cooler, it felt like he had boundless energy. He ran up hills, through snow, around or over downed trees to get the ball we were throwing.


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## DblTrblGolden2

Tagrenine said:


> Another thing that I will need to do is find a way to get him conditioned. He'll be useless as a hunting dog if he is out of shape. That said when we were up north where the weather was much cooler, it felt like he had boundless energy. He ran up hills, through snow, around or over downed trees to get the ball we were throwing.


This is my only fear with Cruz. He was just a baby last summer but the poor guy literally melted in the heat. I'm hoping it was a puppy thing or we will only be running tests in early Spring and late Fall lol

PS - You can buy frozen ducks on-line.


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## ArkansasGold

For one thing, actual hunting is many, many, many more birds in one day.


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> If I can train him myself I will, but I'm really hoping I can find a mentor to let me know I'm going in the right track. And another thing, he is much older than most retriever puppies when they start training. Will I still start him the way outlined in those books/DVDs? Or will he need it adjusted because he's an older dog that has already been allowed to develop bad habits?


A good mentor is the most valuable training asset of all, I am fortunate to have several. It has been my experience that the best trainer/mentors rarely talk about themselves or how good their dogs are. Wanna be mentors tend to talk a lot.

You have to learn to read your dog as to what he needs, this is an endless pursuit. If your dog has no bad habits he is a very rare specimen.
I would start at the beginning, keep it fun and learn as you go like we all do. A good training day is when either you or your dog learn something, on a great training day you both do.


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## K9-Design

Both of the hunt test pros I mentioned here in FL (Jerrod & Scott) run lower level field trials too. Both are good trainers.


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## Edward Lee Nelson

I'm going to chat with Beth Sokohl in PA today and talk to her about her program, since she works mostly with show line dogs. Hopefully going to meet Scott at the hunt test and talk to him too.

Beth just doesn’t work with show Golden’s, her male has over 70 MH passes and QAA. She has a retired dog with also over 70 MH passes. She is super nice and should be a great fit for your dog.


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## Tagrenine

Thank you all! 

I am looking forward to beginning this journey with him. I'm hoping it also helps improve me as a trainer. 

I'm looking forward to meeting Scott, I think he is the president of the Treasure Coast Retriever Club (?) and I'm hoping to be able to learn a lot from him and the club in general. 

I spoke to Beth and got a look at her beautiful facilities. Our plan is for me to train him as much as I can and then plan on sending him up in June, when it is far too hot to do any training here. She said she'll speak with some trainers down here and try to find one who'd be willing to mentor me, but in the meantime she'll send me videos of tasks and I'm free to ask her for any tips.


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## nolefan

So excited for you  Ellie is fun for anything I want to do with her but hands down the most fun we have together is field work. I just wanted to encourage you to go to as many events and training things you possibly can even if it's just to observe. Field people are generally the best kind of people and it's never hard to find someone to narrate and point out what is happening and why and you can learn a ton by observing. Sounds like you've done a great job with your research and are really starting off on a great foot. Go get 'em!!!


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## Everlore

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you both!! Here's hoping my training stuff gets here and I can figure out how to start. It's an overwhelming endeavor to take on. Another thing is I bought some books on positive gun dog training and another series on traditional (e-collar) training.
> 
> Is the style dependent on the dog? I've seen people talk about how soft and sensitive the show line dogs are, but Felix is a much harder dog than the dogs people describe and while most of our training is positive, we do sometimes use corrective tools to help communicate what we want. On that end, I have no experience with an e collar and I'm hoping these resources give tips on how to introduce in case the positive route isn't meshing with either of us.
> 
> I'm going to chat with Beth Sokohl in PA today and talk to her about her program, since she works mostly with show line dogs. Hopefully going to meet Scott at the hunt test and talk to him too.
> 
> @Maegan - he might. I'm also worried he might try to eat it or strip the feather off it lol. There are a lot of things that I worry about because we have let him develop habits that would definitely be detrimental in a hunting dog LOL. We definitely have our work cut out for us.


Beth is a great one to have work with your dog!


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## KK Taos

ArkansasGold said:


> Ask Anney!!!
> Do you know if he likes birds? It will be much easier if he likes birds and doesn’t think they are icky and scary.
> 
> Also, actual duck hunting is quite different than hunt tests and WCs.


And my dog had no interest one way or another with birds. But squirrels? Oh yes.


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## Tagrenine

We got a frozen duck yesterday. He loves it but has no clue how to pick it up LOL. It’s quite large and smells kind of odd, but I’m not super worried. 
Right now I’m just ramping up his excitement for it by getting excited when he mouths the foot or a wing. Hopefully within the day I can get him to pick it up. 
Also hoping I can get a fresh bird this weekend. 

Anyway, my Smartworks DVDs and books aren’t here yet. What is the first thing people start with? Should I be teaching “hold”?


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> What is the first thing people start with? Should I be teaching “hold”?


You need to work on making it fun to retrieve birds, or anything else, to the point where your pup is absolutely crazy to retrieve. Some dogs are born that way, in others it develops over time, others just don't have it.


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## Tagrenine

Right now he enjoys retrieving and he prefers retrieving in mud or water. He isn’t as fast to bring it back as he is to get it and he has no training whatsoever when it comes to putting it in my hand. He usually drops it at my feet.

Right now his favorite retrieving dummy is his duck dummy, but he loves balls and the bumper too. I’ve seen how amped up the field dogs get to retrieve and he’s not there (and he may never get there, they just have higher drive), but he does want to fetch/retrieve and I think I can keep building up that excitement?


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> Right now he enjoys retrieving and he prefers retrieving in mud or water. He isn’t as fast to bring it back as he is to get it and he has no training whatsoever when it comes to putting it in my hand. He usually drops it at my feet.
> 
> Right now his favorite retrieving dummy is his duck dummy, but he loves balls and the bumper too. I’ve seen how amped up the field dogs get to retrieve and he’s not there (and he may never get there, they just have higher drive), but he does want to fetch/retrieve and I think I can keep building up that excitement?


You may be very pleasantly surprised at the effect that using real birds has on a retriever. There will be lots of things to work on as your dog progresses. Remember to keep it fun and always leave a clear path to success. Watch and read your dog, keep challenging him. He will soon get bored if all the retrieves are too easy.


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## Tagrenine

Thank you! I will continue to ramp up his excitement. We are also in formal obedience training. When should I start teaching "hold" or anything else?


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## K9-Design

Hey! I am in Master B this weekend, please come find me! I'll be the one with the pretty Golden


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## Tagrenine

I wanted to say that I cut off a wing and after a little bit of play he was happily fetching the wing!


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## DblTrblGolden2

Tagrenine said:


> Thank you! I will continue to ramp up his excitement. We are also in formal obedience training. When should I start teaching "hold" or anything else?


To help build excitement of retrieving the real bird play a game of keep away for a few minutes. (not tug) Then toss it a few feet and get him to pick it up. Then keep away, toss it a few feet, pick it up, eventually it builds the drive for retrieving real birds. I had to do this last week with Cruz for a dummy from a launcher. It was a metal wrapped dummy that smelled like gun powder from a launcher he had never been around. He will retrieve anything but on first run went out picked it up and dropped it. I had to go out and make him pick it up. Once he delivered to hand I played a nice game of keep away. On his second run he picked up the dummy with no issue and brought it back. Things that are new and smell funny are sometimes a lot to expect for a puppy, like Cruz, or a dog that is just starting out.

I also use refrigerated ducks when I'm working on first picking up. I'm fortunate that I have a good supply of ducks though.


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## Tagrenine

Is Cruz force fetch trained? How did you make him pick it up? I feel like I'm at the point where I can start some sort of training like that but I'm still trying to figure out the best way to start.


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> I wanted to say that I cut off a wing and after a little bit of play he was happily fetching the wing!


Sounds like you’re on the right track. Keep your bumpers in the same bag with any birds you have. You could tape a wing to a bumper also. 
i’ll bet in a week or two your pup will prefer birds over anything else,


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## DblTrblGolden2

Tagrenine said:


> Is Cruz force fetch trained? How did you make him pick it up? I feel like I'm at the point where I can start some sort of training like that but I'm still trying to figure out the best way to start.


Cruz is “condition hold” trained. Years ago would have been force fetched. Same thing, nicer way of getting there. I start with Hold and then do fetch. The other day I had to walk out and kick the bumper with my foot and say “fetch” he picked it up and I quickly took it because I knew he didn’t like it but wanted to reinforce the positive (he did what I asked). I start by placing a soft bumper in there mouth and putting two fingers under there chin with a little pressure and saying “hold”. I gradually increase the time. Cruz already knew “fetch” as a command because I started it as a baby. With Cruz I get a little correction my self from my trainer because every once in a while I still say “hold” when he’s coming in. I should have dropped it by now but it’s a habit on my behalf. (We have to learn too lol)


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## FTGoldens

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> Cruz is “condition hold” trained. Years ago would have been force fetched. Same thing, nicer way of getting there.


This is a little off the initial topic, but related ... and I hope it is suitable for and leads to civil discussion.
The quoted comment interests me because, in my opinion, "condition hold" and "force fetch" are not the same thing. To me, the purpose of force fetch is not to get the dog to grab an object and hold it in its mouth ... that's only a side-benefit. The purpose of force fetch is to teach the dog a couple of things ...
FIRST - it teaches the dog that a command is not a request, it is an order; compliance is not optional, but is mandatory.
SECOND - it teaches the dog that compliance turns off an adverse stimulus, i.e., the dog learns how to turn off pressure. (This is huge if the dog is ever collar conditioned.)
Granted, I can see how "condition hold" can help a dog get through force fetch more quickly, but, at least in my opinion, they are not the same.

Notably, there's a mention of having to go out and kick a bumper to get the dog to pick it up ... if that was my dog, I would have to ask myself if I had adequately gone through force fetch with the dog because it doesn't understand what is explained at FIRST, above.

Thoughts?.


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## DblTrblGolden2

FTGoldens said:


> This is a little off the initial topic, but related ... and I hope it is suitable for and leads to civil discussion.
> The quoted comment interests me because, in my opinion, "condition hold" and "force fetch" are not the same thing. To me, the purpose of force fetch is not to get the dog to grab an object and hold it in its mouth ... that's only a side-benefit. The purpose of force fetch is to teach the dog a couple of things ...
> FIRST - it teaches the dog that a command is not a request, it is an order; compliance is not optional, but is mandatory.
> SECOND - it teaches the dog that compliance turns off an adverse stimulus, i.e., the dog learns how to turn off pressure. (This is huge if the dog is ever collar conditioned.)
> Granted, I can see how "condition hold" can help a dog get through force fetch more quickly, but, at least in my opinion, they are not the same.
> 
> Notably, there's a mention of having to go out and kick a bumper to get the dog to pick it up ... if that was my dog, I would have to ask myself if I had adequately gone through force fetch with the dog because it doesn't understand what is explained at FIRST, above.
> 
> Thoughts?.


I do not disagree with your thoughts. Cruz is a puppy and is learning still, he is not what I consider to be reliably FF at this point. I have not run a test with him. He is about 90% there. The trainer that I am working with trains field trial and hunt test dogs and prefers it to be a "conditioned hold process". There are differences in the approach, both of my other dogs where ff with the standard method. I'm still learning this new approach, with a new trainer. I can say that his method is easier on the dog, and I've seen the results, it works. Cruz is collar conditioned. After our session this week our conversation was pretty much along the lines of what you are saying. I was told by my trainer to give the process another week or two. I myself am slightly confused due to the fact that this is not the way I have trained in the past. I can tell you Cruz will fetch from the floor, off the table, out of the air, and he will hold and deliver to hand. I also do see weaknesses in this approach, as stated about what happened last week. I have watched this trainer enough to know he will have a rock solid ff/conditioned hold, whatever you choose to call it, when he's completely trained for it. He is 9 months old and I'm not pushing his training. 

Completely civil conversation, as I am learning this process myself. I have always sent my dogs out to be trained. Cruz is the first one that I am trying to do myself with guidance from a Pro via weekly sessions. I do like my trainer because he tailors his approach to the dog and my old trainer had a one approach fits all attitude.


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## FTGoldens

DTG2,

Understood! I'm glad that this discussion arose because others may not grasp the differences between condition hold and force fetch ... or the purposes of force fetch (maybe mandatory fetch would be a better term  ).

I appreciate that your new trainer tailors his approach to the dog. For years I have railed against those who insist on strictly following a "program" ... as I've said before, "Make the program fit the dog, not the dog to the program."


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> Thoughts?.


I think you’re absolutely correct.


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> "Make the program fit the dog, not the dog to the program."


Again 100% correct.
I will add;
Read your dog
Train and teach accordingly.
Do not make excuses.


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## PalouseDogs

My personal opinion is that you should train your own dog, but I'm the type of person that would rather have a dog with a JH that I trained and ran myself than an FC that someone else trained. However, if you really want THIS dog trained, paying someone who knows what they're doing will give you a much greater chance of success with THIS dog, but if you plan to train a second dog, you'll be in the same boat as with the first dog if the first dog isn't a learning experience.

With my first dog, Maple, I was too quick to take the advice of hunt club members. The advice you will get from most people will almost always be "more pressure" (more correcting) when often the dog needs more teaching and less pressure. My first dog developed a bad popping problem from unfair correcting with the e-collar.

With my second dog, Pinyon, I didn't initially intend to do any hunt tests (because he has a damaged nose and I was concerned about him swimming). He is such a retrieving fanatic, however, I started piddling around with lining and casting exercises in the yard. I put an SH on him, which was going to be the end of it. His swimming long distances with a duck still makes me nervous, plus the closest training area with suitable water is over 2 hours away, and the training area is only really usable in spring, which coincides with the peak of obedience trials, and I have a full-time job. Yadda, yadda, yadda...

Then COVID appeared. All the obedience trials got cancelled last spring. Somehow, I found myself buying two more wingers and, with no obedience trials to go to, introduced the boy to triples when he was 4 years old. (Never too old!) I showed him in a couple of Master tests after a couple of months and he did okay, but he still needs more work, especially with drag-back (a killer for the person that trains alone). With obedience trials coming back this spring, and me hoping to finish his OTCH this year, I don't know how much hunt training we'll do this spring, but he sure does enjoy it. I can live without the long drives and lugging wingers around on rocky ground.

With Pinyon, I didn't bother with an ecollar, or FF, or FTP, or any of that stuff. I was leery of screwing him up like with my first dog. He is an extremely biddable dog, but he can be a bit of an overly enthusiastic free agent on blinds. A little more control at a distance would not be a bad thing. I haven't decided whether to introduce him to an ecollar at this late date, but I'm hoping to get a puppy in early summer and will probably use one on the puppy, since I feel like I know more about what I'm doing. Connie Cleveland put out an online introductory course about ecollar use a year or two ago. Her course is not a hunt training course, but a starter course for understanding how to use and NOT use an ecollar. No matter what hunt training program you use, if you've never used an ecollar before, I highly recommend you shell out the $80 and go through the Connie Cleveland course first. Go to this link for her digital obedience guides and select the ecollar training course.





Digital Obedience Guides - Dog Trainers Workshop


Connie Cleveland & her team at Dog Trainers Workshop specialize in dog obedience training, competition training, and dog boarding in Greenville, SC.




www.onlineobediencetraining.com





Good luck. If you have suitable water nearby, hunt training is a lot of fun. If training grounds are a long drive, it can be a huge time drain.


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## SRW

PalouseDogs said:


> The advice you will get from most people will almost always be "more pressure" (more correcting) when often the dog needs more teaching and less pressure.


Unfortunately true, you have to be very careful about who you take training advise from. Poor trainers are often the most willing to advise others, especially someone new. 
Pay attention to the dogs. They will tell you everything you need to know about the trainers.


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## PalouseDogs

SRW said:


> Unfortunately true, you have to be very careful about who you take training advise from. Poor trainers are often the most willing to advise others, especially someone new.
> Pay attention to the dogs. They will tell you everything you need to know about the trainers.


Exactly. Before you take anyone's advice, watch their dogs at a test, if you can, and in training. Red flags, for me, are dogs scurrying along with tucked tails in ecollar training, dogs hesitant to go on a blind (because they know they will probably get a harsh correction), and, in a test, poor line manners. 

Be wary of training groups that constantly run the dogs on test situations that most of the dogs are not ready for, and then correct, correct, correct a dog that doesn't know what it's supposed to do. Training groups should aim to train and build confidence. I'll sometimes hook up with a training group or go to a club training session, but I use the opportunity to accustom my dog to bird boys, picking up ducks other dogs have slobbered on, etc. I usually run singles or easy doubles in training groups. If it's a big group and your dog is having trouble, the pressure on you to put pressure on your dog because you know there's a line of people behind you can make you do stupid things.


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## SRW

Just discussed the subject of bad training groups last night with a very experienced field trial trainer/handler.
One sign of a poor training group. The setups they train on are simply copies of what they saw at the last event or expect to see in the next one. 
Good training set ups teach concepts. Each and every mark has a purpose, simply being one bird of a double or triple is not a purpose. 
In advanced field training *bird placement is everything*. I think it is comparable to chess, you never quit learning and very few truly master it.
Competing in training is another mistake made by many. You will never advance a dog that way, most often the dog will regress. 
All of this is difficult to learn without a good mentor.


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## Tagrenine

I went to a hunt test this weekend and watched the Masters and Seniors. One thing I learned is just how much handling and training goes into these animals. You can have a wonderfully trained dog but if you don't know how to handle it, you're still going to be at a loss.

I saw poodles, a field spaniel, an NSDTR, some Chessies, and FCR, and a GWP, but I didn't see that one run. I saw a LOT of labs and Goldens. There was a stark difference in the handling done by the pros and the amateurs/owner-handlers and not in a bad way. There was a lot of confidence in those who handled their own dogs and the dogs themselves seemed more confident.

I am planning to join the club and work with people there, but I have a lot of work I need to do at home and I'm more hesitant about who I choose to learn from. I watched a lot of dogs yesterday and a lot of people with more than one dog. I saw dogs chilling in the blinds and dogs crawling and shaking while in them. I saw dogs trot out to retrieve and trot back and I saw dogs race out and race back.

I will gather as much as I can from other people at the club, but what other resources should I look at, especially when I start to apply corrections/pressure during training? I don't want to do it wrong, I want a variety of resources that I can use as a tool to help shape the way I train him.

Edit: FWIW, I have Lardy's and Hillman's training series. I ordered Stawski's and it will be getting here at the end of Feb.


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## Tagrenine

I'm starting out Hillmann's Traffic Cop and introducing the whistle to sit. Felix knows sit verbally and wasn't pressure trained sit, so leash + whistle may not be the best way to make the connection. Would it be better to try hand signal for sit + whistle? And also, Hillmann used a short whistle for sit and the ones I heard at the hunt test were longer whistles and the dogs stopped, sat, and faced handler. Should I be using this short whistle (is the long one for a different step?)


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> I'm starting out Hillmann's Traffic Cop and introducing the whistle to sit. Felix knows sit verbally and wasn't pressure trained sit, so leash + whistle may not be the best way to make the connection. Would it be better to try hand signal for sit + whistle? And also, Hillmann used a short whistle for sit and the ones I heard at the hunt test were longer whistles and the dogs stopped, sat, and faced handler. Should I be using this short whistle (is the long one for a different step?)


When you’re training sit in the yard use a short whistle and not too loud. Your dog should be paying attention to you and listening for commands both verbal and whistle. Volume is a tool you will use in more advanced training, don’t overuse it in the yard.
I would recommend reinforcing sit with the leash and using a hand signal as well. These are all great tools for communicating with your pup.
All these little cues that you use in the yard will be a benefit in advanced training.


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## granite7

As another beginner, I’m watching with intent. I am so happy to see how eager folks are to help. 

How old is Felix?


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## Tagrenine

SRW said:


> When you’re training sit in the yard use a short whistle and not too loud. Your dog should be paying attention to you and listening for commands both verbal and whistle. Volume is a tool you will use in more advanced training, don’t overuse it in the yard.
> I would recommend reinforcing sit with the leash and using a hand signal as well. These are all great tools for communicating with your pup.
> All these little cues that you use in the yard will be a benefit in advanced training.


Thank you!! I will add the leash training as well and hopefully has him understanding the whistle quickly.


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## Tagrenine

granite7 said:


> As another beginner, I’m watching with intent. I am so happy to see how eager folks are to help.
> 
> How old is Felix?


It is definitely a new training experience! Felix is 18 months old


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## SRW

SRW said:


> Volume is a tool you will use in more advanced training, don’t overuse it in the yard.


I should elaborate on this point as it is important IMO.
Volume with a whistle can be intimidating to some dogs. I think most of the time it is because loud whistles are often followed by corrections. You need a lot of volume in certain conditions, strong wind, lunging water, long distances. The ground cover can sometimes create a lot of noise as a dog runs through it, dry corn stubble for example.
Over blowing a whistle in normal conditions can condition a dog to not listen for softer whistles. Many of the loud whistles you hear at events are due to nervous handlers, especially at hunt tests where distances are short.
When handling on blinds, it is important that a dog be comfortable and happy about sitting to the whistle. The dog should not be thinking "oh no I'm in trouble". When your pup hears a whistle on a blind you want him thinking "alright I get to run a different direction this is awesome and so am I". Don't worry about perfect casts, enthusiasm is more important. Precision will come over time. 

When running marks a dog will come to take whistles as a mild correction. Consider a long single with a cross wind. Throw the mark into the wind, if the dog fades with the wind stop him and handle keeping him on the correct side of the gun. The dog knows where the bird is relative to the gunner and in time will understand he has to fight the wind.

Volume of your voice is another tool. With easy and or close marks send very softly, I also cue the dog saying "easy" before sending. Take advantage of every mark as a training situation, giving consistent cues so your pup understands what is expected. On longer marks I increase the volume of the send but not to the point of yelling. I see handlers do that and it usually intimidates the dog and causes them to flare of line. 
On retired guns the cues and volume are even more important. On a particularly long and difficult retired mark I will give a "long" cue. Speak in a calm reassuring tone. When I send it will be louder than normal and longer "Jaaaake".

Lots of other thing go into it as well. You need to pay attention to how your pup is lined up, where he is looking, is that nose cocked right or left? Your body language is important as well and your pup notices it. 

Kind of rambling here, hope it is of some help. 
Happy Training


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## Tagrenine

Thank you!! That is excellent advice. While we are a while out from the advanced stuff, it is important for me to take all of this into account even early on. Our whistle came and I'm going to practice making consistent whistles and then start the transition to whistle sits. 

I did see some dogs at the hunt test look fearful when the whistle was blown and others that looked STOKED at the sound of the whistle.


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## FTGoldens

*This is good stuff! * 

When I trained my first Golden for field work, I relied on three books ... authored by James Lamb Free, Richard Wolters (Water Dog), and Charlie Morgan. There were no DVDs, CDs, or even training VHS or Beta video tapes, and CERTAINLY no internet! Heck, the idea of even a training "seminar" was still a few years in the future (although several extremely serious dog-people were able to visit Rex Carr at CL-2 and learn his revolutionary methods). Ahhh, the nostalgia of it all!

Nonetheless, it is exciting for me to see people enthusiastically engaged in learning how to train their Goldens to retrieve! The resources are abundant ... this forum is but one source (a very good source), as well as DVDs, seminars, books, on-line videos, local clubs, etc. As SRW mentioned, a mentor (one that actually knows what they are doing) is the best resource, but I implore you to take advantage of them all, whether your goal is to have a darn good hunting companion; to give your pup opportunities to do what it was bred to do; or earn a WC, WCX, JH, SH, MH, HRCH, AFC, FC, NAFC, or NFC (I know that SRW is gunning for the last one!).

The questions (and answers) have been great ... keep'm coming!


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## Alaska7133

Regarding whistle noise, I compete and judge spaniel hunt tests. The spaniel handlers use spaniel whistles that are soft and mellow. Spaniels respond just fine to those softer whistles, but they generally don't cover the distances retriever events do. I say generally, I have seen people let their dog go after a winged bird that flies for 500 yards to pick up the bird, but that's not very common. There is no way to over blow a spaniel whistle. Then the next handler will use a retriever whistle with their lab, and they hit their whistles so loud in comparison for exactly the same work as the spaniel. When I run my dogs in spaniel events, I make my whistles very quiet and don't blast. Kind of funny how much you can adjust a whistle sound depending on what you need for the event.


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## FTGoldens

Also, here's plug for the Golden Retriever Club of America ... if you are not a member of the GRCA, I suggest that you join. The GRNews is more than worth the cost of membership. In addition to being a world class publication, there are always training articles which are extraordinarily helpful, especially for persons who are in the early stages of learning how to train. Glenda Brown must have a room full of articles from which to select for each bi-monthly publication ... seriously, I don't know where she gets them all!


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## SRW

FTGoldens said:


> Also, here's plug for the Golden Retriever Club of America ... if you are not a member of the GRCA, I suggest that you join.


I sent in my application around Christmas time. Don’t know why took me so long.
We need to get more retrievers out there retrieving. It gets boring watching just yellow and black ones.


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## Edward Lee Nelson

When I started out also there wasn’t any DVD’s etc either.Everyone has great responses, I would say the main one and most productive is to try to find a good mentor or a training group. DVD’s and books can only do so much. I was extremely lucky growing up young as that built the basics and fundamentals in me. Also as mentioned, have fun no matter what your goals are. It’s great to see Golden’s working and running in tests or trials. I’m like SRW it gets boring watching black dogs run. It will be fun this year running two dogs in different stakes.


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## Tagrenine

I reached out to the Treasure Coast Retriever Club and I'm awaiting a response back  I'm hoping to attend training days and hopefully get a local mentor. 

We've started sit -whistle and sit-leash and he's understanding that quite well. He picked up the whistle cue quickly, but the leash is different and I think that will take more time. 

We've also introduced "hold", just the very beginnings and I've decided to use a paint roller to start worth.


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## FTGoldens

Tagrenine said:


> I reached out to the Treasure Coast Retriever Club and I'm awaiting a response back  I'm hoping to attend training days and hopefully get a local mentor.


Treasure Coast seems to be a good club ... on the club's website, they talk about training days! 
Plus, I know that some of the members run Goldens, so you should be in a good place.


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## Tagrenine

I reached out to Treasure Coast and haven't heard back yet  I understand Scott is probably a busy guy. Should I keep waiting or reach out again?
There is another retriever club locally, but they aren't AKC sanctioned - they're UKC and HRC. Would this be worth reaching out to or no?


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> There is another retriever club locally, but they aren't AKC sanctioned - they're UKC and HRC. Would this be worth reaching out to or no?


IMO No.


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## granite7

If you want to earn credentials for your dog, AKC probably carries more weight. 

I joined a local HRC because it feels more like regular guys and their hunting dogs. Our local club is large and active. My breeder is also a big supporter of the local club.

For me, I want a practical hunting retriever and I am not at all interested in field trials. I will enjoy doing hunt tests, though. My dog is registered AKC & UKC. For my purposes, the HRC is a great fit.

For you, I think you have to consider your goals.


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## FTGoldens

I hope that someone from Treasure Coast will respond soon ... if anyone on this forum is a member or knows someone who is a member, maybe they can either reach out to you or ask a Treasure Coast member to reach out.
As for the other clubs, I have a bit of a different view ... I say, join them all. Regardless of the affiliation, the early training is largely the same: something is thrown, puppy goes out to get it, hopefully puppy picks it up, hopefully puppy brings it back. Then once you have spent time with each group, you can decide which one fits you and your dog the best. JMHO

FTGoldens


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## K9-Design

If you mean South Florida HRC YES I would contact them. They are JUST starting and have a lot of young, new members who are very nice. They may not be as accomplished but it's a good contact. They have a hunt test the end of March also near Okeechobee


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## Tagrenine

A quick update!

I still haven't heard back from Treasure Coast and I'm hoping to attend the SFHRC training day on March 6th if Felix is ready and isn't a nuisance.

It was 90 degrees today and I'm having a hard time figuring out the best time to practice. We've started e collar conditioning to sit and I wanted to ask what everyone uses? We have a minieducator. He is doing great with the whistle sit and we've started puppy marks according to Lardy's stuff. I don't mind going to slow but this crazy heat is awful.


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## SRW

Tagrenine said:


> A quick update!
> 
> I still haven't heard back from Treasure Coast and I'm hoping to attend the SFHRC training day on March 6th if Felix is ready and isn't a nuisance.
> 
> It was 90 degrees today and I'm having a hard time figuring out the best time to practice. We've started e collar conditioning to sit and I wanted to ask what everyone uses? We have a minieducator. He is doing great with the whistle sit and we've started puppy marks according to Lardy's stuff. I don't mind going to slow but this crazy heat is awful.


Not many will feel sorry for you right now about your hot weather.

I have a Garmin Pro 550 and a Garmin Sport Dog. The collars can be used with either transmitter.
Only had the Garmin Sport dog a month but I really like it and it is $150 less than the 550

Don't confuse the Garmin sport dog model with the "Sport Dog" brand which are junk IMO.


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## Tagrenine

I have heard about the winter storms and I feel for the people in Texas  

Thank you!! I will look into those collars.


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## Tagrenine

We have been working on "Fetch" and "Hold". I don't know if my timing is off or I'm using too much force, but Felix is fairly adverse to the traditional method of teaching hold (holding the jaw closed until he relaxes). He is slowly getting it, but I have to take it one attempt at a time, because he starts to get hesitant about taking the paint roller from my hand willingly. I am also having a hard time getting him to maintain the hold after my hand leaves his jaw. 

Will this require just more practice or should I try another approach?


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## K9-Design

I don't teach "hold" -- just "fetch." If they're dropping the item they're not fetching. Why teach two commands. I care that they take the item and they learn not to bobble it later.


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## Tagrenine

Thank you! How do you teach fetch?


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## PalouseDogs

It is very easy to confuse the heck out of a dog teaching them Hold. Or Fetch. I don't think it makes any difference if you teach one or two commands. I have a Hold and a Take It command, but it's probably unnecessary to have both; OTOH, I don't think it does any harm to have both. Just habit for me.

Anyway, getting back to the original question. A common training scenario: Handler puts object, e.g., paint roller in dog's mouth. Handler says sternly, often glaring at dog. "Hold!" When dog eventually will hold object for a brief time, handler takes object quickly and has a party. Good boy! Good hold! Look at this through the dog's eyes. The paint roller is in his mouth. Owner is glaring at him, frowning, looking very serious. Dog thinks "My beloved master looks mad at me when I have this thing in my mouth." Owner takes object. Dog thinks "Beloved Master is much happier now that object is not him my mouth." And yet, beloved master still keeps shoving this thing in my mouth. Very confusing. 

I have no idea if you are doing any of that. If you are, try to make sure that praise happens while he is holding the object and stay low-keyed when he gives it up. 

I think it is best to teach dogs to hold when you are sitting alongside them, not with the dog in front of you so you are staring into one another's eyes. I think the straight-on stare is intimidating to the dog. (But I have seen some exceptionally good OB trainers do hold training face-to-face, so maybe it's not as intimidating as I think it is.)

Gently put paint roller in dog's mouth. Gently hold his muzzle closed. Smile and softly praise him when he stops trying to spit it out. Tell him how handsome he looks. When he's held it without struggling, ask for it, but don't have a party when he gives it. Just say "Good boy" in a calm voice. Or, if you have a CR word (see next paragraph), when he is holding it without struggling, say "Yes". It is okay if he releases it when you say Yes, because he knows he gets a reward. 

If you don't already have them, it is useful to have a "carry-on" word, e.g., "good" or "nice" and a conditioned response (CR) word, e.g., "Yes!" The CR word is ALWAYS paired with a reward, like a treat or a toy. The "carry-on" word means "You are doing the right thing. Keep on doing what you're doing." It does not need to be paired with a treat. If you use the CR word, a reward must follow. Say it, Pay it. These are very useful in teaching anything, but especially hold. The problem with rewarding a "hold" with a treat is that the dog has to drop the object to get the treat. It is easy to associate the reward with dropping the object, not with holding it. And yes, I totally understand that hunt/field trainers usually don't use treats to train a hold. I do mostly Obedience and my dogs are always taught to hold objects for obedience (wooden dumbbells, metal articles, and gloves) before we do hunt training. I've always use treats for OB. I used to use an ear pinch, but as my timing has gotten better, I barely use an ear squeeze anymore. Not much force in my force fetch. YMMV.

If you can get him to hold it calmly with your hand holding his mouth shut, move your hand away. He will almost certainly drop it. Act dismayed. Oh no! Ah Ah Ah...Return object to his mouth and the instant he is holding it without struggling, go back into happy, smiley voice. Do not revert back to stern lecturing growly "Hold!" when he is doing the right thing. The right thing makes you happy. When he will hold it for a few seconds while your hand is no longer holding his mouth shut, say calmly "yes". and "Give" and give him a treat. Ideally, you want him to figure out that the "yes" happens when he is holding the object, not when he gives it up. I will hold the dog's collar with my left hand near or gently holding his ear, but I don't introduce a squeeze or pressure until he shows signs he understands what I want him to do. 

Short sessions, about 5 reps each, 2 or 3 times/day, in a quiet, non-distracting environment. If you don't seem to be making progress, try to find someone to help.


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## Tagrenine

Yes thank you!!!! That made a HUGE difference. I read this post this morning and then got out of bed and started working on it and it was like night and day. He relaxed and comfortably held the paint roller. I even moved my hand away and he didn't yeet it out of his mouth. I've been using "out" as my word for giving it to my hand, does that work? 

I will start to develop a carry on word, but he does have a CR word.


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## PalouseDogs

That is a great start! Now, you need to accomplish the next few steps:
Getting him to hold it while he's sitting and you move around.
Getting him to reach for it on his own without you putting it in his mouth
Getting him to pick it up off the ground. Weirdly, dogs hit a mental barrier going from taking the bumper from a hand to picking it up off the ground. 
Getting him to carry it without dropping it.

The 5-treat game is a fun way to reinforce Hold. Start by lining up 5 treats on a low table in front of the two of you. He has to see the treats. Put him in a sit on your left. Have him hold the bumper. At this point, you might still be putting it in his mouth. That's okay. Tell him to hold it, or don't say anything, if you don't want to use a separate Hold command. Reach for the first treat with your right hand. He will probably drop the bumper anticipating the trieat. Immediately stop reaching for the treat and go into your dismayed act. If you got as far as picking up the treat put it back. Return the bumper to his mouth. Immediately go back to the happy act as soon as he's holding it. Reach for the treat again. You can quietly praise him for holding as you reach for the treat. It might take a few attempts, but he will soon figure out that, if he drops the bumper, you stop reaching for the treat. When you can pick up the treat and move it towards him, give your CR while he's holding the bumper and let him give it to you. Give him the treat. Repeat for the 5 treats. 

Next session, start at the same place for the first treat, to make sure he's figured it out. If he has, back up a step from the treat. Have him hold the bumper. This time, you stand up and take the step to the treat. Again, if he drops the bumper, you put the treat back, scold, put bumper back in his mouth, praise, try again, etc. Over the course of a few sessions, you should be able to get to where you can leave him in a sit holding the bumper while you walk across the room, pick up the treat, and bring it back to him. 

Using "out:" is fine, as long as you don't use "out" for anything else. I use out for agility. I use Give for an object release. I've heard other people use Release or even Thank You. 

A important step is getting the dog to reach for the bumper. This is where most trainers use an ear pinch or ear squeeze if the dog hasn't started reaching for it on his own. Sit next to dog with dog on your left. With your left hand, hold the dog's collar and the base of his ear flap. Give a light squeeze to his ear flap. I think it works best to begin squeezing before you put the bumper in front of his nose. (You don't want the appearance of the bumper to mean he is going to get an ear squeee. You want the appearance of the bumper to mean he can find a way to end the squeeze.) Show him the bumper and say Take it, or whatever your command is. Slide the bumper into his mouth gently and stop squeezing the instant he has the bumper. Say Hold and praise. At first, he will probably not reach for it on his own, but after a few repetitions, he will start to realize that the bumper stops the squeeze. He will (hopefully) start reaching for it when he sees its. His first attempts will be hesitant. He might start by hesitantly opening his mouth without reaching. I would stop squeezing at any initial attempt, give him the bumper, and praise highly while he's holding it. 

A lot of retriever trainers get pretty harsh as this point. They might pinch the dog's ear against the metal buckle of the collar. I don't use any more force than necessary. Goldens tend to be very biddable dogs. A light squeeze may be all you need. For some dogs, you may not even need that. 

When he is opening his mouth and reaching for the bumper, move the bumper further from his nose so he has to reach for it, until he is standing up and moving forward to it. Start lowering it to the ground. Dogs almost always stall out when you get to the point where the bumper is on the ground and your hand is not on the bumper. Don't panic. It's normal. You can make the transition easier by putting one end on the ground and holding the other up by the rope. Gradually lower the end you are holding. You might at first encourage him to pick it up by moving it a little away from him. Dogs are more inclined to pick up an object they have seen move.


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