# Momentum



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

what kind of drills is he doing that is discouraging the momentum of his dog? 

For me, unless Proof is just totally running in the wrong direction, like 90 degrees in the wrong direction, I do not blow a whistle for him until he is about 30 to 50 yards out. On a blind that he is running that is 250 to 300 yards 50 yards isn't that big of a deal. It keeps him going hard. Also, I blow a very light sounding whistle when he is close to me for many reasons but one is to just let him know he's not in trouble just needs to change direction. I've noticed on a loud whistle up close it kind of worries the dog, a light whistle they whip around in an eager spirit. Of course that is up close not far away. 

I also like to let him take a cast for a long time. So I like to get him far enough off his line that I can give him an angle cast and he can run it hard for awhile. Proving to me that he understands the cast. 

At his stage also I like to use a pole or something at the end that he can see when he is close. I'm not as concerned about the very end and find this as a quick reward for him going through all he concepts to get there. The end is just a nitty picky detail, ha ha. I do not use birds so for him to see the end easier that is good for his momentum. 

And no matter what I do not blow the whistle if he is slowing down or putting his nose to the ground. 

I've heard recently the term whistle beating. This refers to people over blowing their whistles on young dogs early on. They want to keep such a tight line that it ends up stressing the dog out and he loses all momentum. Plus if the dog is barely off line, how does the dog realize that? He probably thinks he is really wrong and will then not take the cast you really want. 

If someone were to watch Proof on blinds right now they would not be very impressed. Although his blinds are above master level most of the time with distance at least 150 yards most of the time. I want Proof running hard and as straight as far as he possibly can and I want him zig zagging his way up the line as much as possible. this is my goal for his stage in the game. I'll clean it up when he has it down much better. Maybe around 18 months old. 

One thing that I've been doing recently to build up that momentum is a bucket blind. He might run some very conceptual blinds but they are bucket blinds. And then turn around and remove the buckets and rerun them. It is amazing how well they have built up his momentum and confidence!


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

I got one.
Why are you not helping him then?
Is this not what a training is for?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Poppy2 said:


> I got one.
> Why are you not helping him then?
> Is this not what a training is for?


He does not need help. He is quite happy with his training and what he has. He has met his goals. 
I did start by posting that I like a really stylish dog. This is subject to some interpretation. Many people do not like what I like in a dog.
Also, I try to only give advice when someone asks.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

You never explained what drills he is doing that is slowing his dogs momentum. I think this would be valuable for us to read about


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

What MoP said!! GREAT explanation on encouraging lots of momentum from the start on a young dog on blinds!! Super!!!!!

I too have an acquaintance whose dog is insanely slow on blinds totally due to the handler's technique. It's pretty sad as the dog is lights out on marks. 
Here's a recipe for failure:
Do not follow a program to prepare a dog to run cold blinds with good attitude. Instead, teach them the mechanics (go, stop, take a cast) using all visible targets, then one day decide to run a "blind" that the dog cannot see. When he is confused, and either no goes or pops, spend several months handling up a storm because he will "eventually figure it out" and "gain confidence" until you realize you might need to consider some force, now go out and do FTP ad nauseum. Dog has a really crappy attitude about it now!! 
This particular dog is terribly buggy and has NO lining up skills. When he is sent, he literally trots away from the handler. The dog has amazingly fast sits (thanks to lots of burns on the sit whistle) and incredibly crisp casts (one step wrong, he gets another sit and cast). When he gets out 75-100 yards away he picks up speed because he knows there's bound to be a blind out here soon enough (god forbid a "hunt test dog" do anything over 100 yards). 
This makes the handler happy. She has dominion over a fast dog and can control it. She doesn't see the difference. Yikes!!!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

I know what you're talking about, gdgli! I have a training partner who badgers the dogs, particularly on initial lines ... even the very young ones. My partner is conceptually strong, but, in my opinion, demands too much precision, especially for the youngsters. 

Rex Carr has been attributed the following quote, "If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive; if you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart."

MOP and K9D have very well stated ways to keep up your dogs' momentum.

Maintaining a balance is essential to be competitive... you must have a certain level of control. As I've admitted more than once, I've lost trials because of my dogs' over-zealousness ... but I also believe that the zealousness not only keeps it fun for the dogs (and, indirectly, me), but it has caused them to WIN. I take Mr. Carr's statement to heart.

FTGoldens


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> You never explained what drills he is doing that is slowing his dogs momentum. I think this would be valuable for us to read about



He does the same drills as we do. However, he does not balance them out, he spends a lot of time overemphasizing the stopping, casting and control type drills. He drills the dog to death with "come in drills". Also come in, stop, drop the bird, pick up the bird, come in (constant). Constant split casting drills. 

His dog is a type I would not own. However, balanced training would have produced a dog more to my liking. 

Some consequences:
1) His dog runs a blind at a very slow pace, looks like he is just waiting to be stopped. If I had that dog I would do everything to change that. 2) When this dog runs a mark, she purposely avoids going right to the mark (she has shown me that she knows exactly where it is), instead she gets out there in the AOF and puts on what I call a false hunt. I am convinced it is a form of pressure release from the blind work. The dog has a chance to run a bit.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

k9

Sounds like you have seen my friend train. 
I might add this is accompanied with a lot of browbeating.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

A few years ago my trainer got a dog in for rehap training. 
The difference in the dog's attitude between marks and blinds was astounding. On marks head up, energetic, powerful dog, hot off the line. On blinds he barely would look out, extreme loss of momentum off the line, worried dog. He look like two different dogs. 
The Pro said too much pressure and way too much nit picking lines on a really young dog. 
The Pro spent quite awhile running long blinds with attrition only to bring the dog back up before he could retroduce pressure. The dog recovered but you can still see a difference between his attitude at the line on marks vs blinds.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

you know, George, there are quite of few people that come out to train with us that are judges at all levels of field trials. a couple have said that if they see a dog trotting out on a blind they will immediately fail them or not bring them back for the next series. It is a pet peeve of theirs. 

So as FTgoldens just stated, a flashy fast dog with lots of "go" might beat a dog that is technically better. I've found that the faster the dog is the less time the judge can see their mistakes. ha ha. Not always but a lot of times!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I was guilty of this when I first started running blinds. I was watching only big dogs run at the time and that put an image into my head of what running a blind should look like. My trainer at the time never said anything so I had no idea. When I went to another trainer, he told me I was running Molly way too tightly at her level. I was honestly shocked that it was possible to run a dog too tightly on the line and that was the first time I had ever heard of letting a dog "roll". In the beginning I was really surprised at how far he would let Molly go off line. I kept asking, "shouldn't I stop her now?"


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Interesting that this topic pop up now. I've started FF with Flyer and once again momentum has been my guide though the process. Since I have only FF one dog, who maybe the most compliant dog on the planet, I have been on a very short leash with my trainer. Just finishing FF on feathers now and every time I check in with him I'm questioned about Flyer's momentum on the fun tosses that I start and finish each session. I usually have to discribe what he does before the Pro is satisfied.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

that's great Holly. Its so important to work with a pro that thinks about momentum! I've worked with other pros that never taught me that sort of thing. My trainers I work with now are so conscience of momentum!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

It is funny how some of these threads help me realize where I have gone wrong with Molly. It wasn't obvious at the time but slowly I was breaking her down. I will not make the same mistakes again.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

As it has been stressed in this thread, reading and rewarding the effort that a young dog is giving you is so important. It goes hand in hand with momentum. 
Anney's recent posts with Bally are a good example. He might not have the perfect line right now but he is giving her so much effort! It's fun to read about.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Keeping good momentum on blinds is a balancing act. 

You are constantly working on the balance between "Go" and "Control". Too much or too little of one or the other and you don't have a pleasing performance. This is where knowing the dog at the end of your lead, and the ability to read that dog is a big deal.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> It is funny how some of these threads help me realize where I have gone wrong with Molly. It wasn't obvious at the time but slowly I was breaking her down. I will not make the same mistakes again.


We learn by our mistakes. Even the best make mistakes.


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## Poppy2 (Jun 23, 2015)

Now that everyone has had fun bashing there training group(hope there not reading this) lets take another look at the dog itself. Some dogs just don't have it. Its called a washout! No matter how much a pro or any other trainer trys to increase a dogs momentum, hes just pissing in the wind. So the dog gets sold as a started dog. These are good dogs, they go on to be hunting/family dogs. But they will never fill a spot on a pros truck that competes in ft. So could a dog lacking momentum be classified as a genetic flaw, maybe so.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> ... the ability to read that dog is a big deal.


The only thing to add is an exclamation point!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Poppy2 said:


> Now that everyone has had fun bashing there training group(hope there not reading this) lets take another look at the dog itself. Some dogs just don't have it. Its called a washout! No matter how much a pro or any other trainer trys to increase a dogs momentum, hes just pissing in the wind. So the dog gets sold as a started dog. These are good dogs, they go on to be hunting/family dogs. But they will never fill a spot on a pros truck that competes in ft. So could a dog lacking momentum be classified as a genetic flaw, maybe so.


Yep! 
Some dogs just don't have "it." (For this thread, "it" means momentum, but for other threads "it" could mean something else.) 
Even the very best trainer can't make chicken salad out of chicken ... fertilizer.
FTGoldens

ps: My training partner is well aware that I disagree with that type of training ... I've even walked in from a gunner station after a couple "no heres" with the explanation that I refuse to contribute to the destruction of a puppy's attitude :no: ... after a promise that it wouldn't happen again, I returned to the station.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

FTGoldens said:


> Yep!
> Some dogs just don't have "it." (For this thread, "it" means momentum, but for other threads "it" could mean something else.)
> Even the very best trainer can't make chicken salad out of chicken ... fertilizer.
> FTGoldens
> ...


And good move!!!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I was told to always leave the training with the dog wanting to run again. Always throw in freebies (shorter or easier blinds). I know many people do not like the idea to allow the dogs to play at the end of a training session but I have always let them out with other dogs and either run like maniacs after each other or throw them fun bumpers. 

Start on a high note and finish on a high note. Never finish with a correction or a tedious exercise. Teach first and then correct regardless of how long it will take. Once you put a time stamp on your goals the handler is more prone to put too much pressure on the dog and while the dog may accomplish that said task it will wash out for the long run.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> I was told to always leave the training with the dog wanting to run again.


Agreed. 
As Swampcollie noted, it is hugely important to READ THE DOG. Each dog is different with regard to the amount or type of pressure suitable for them. As we have read on this forum, some dogs nearly fold under a harsh tone of voice used by a trainer, while other dogs need a high level of correction just to get their attention. My first truly competitive dog, a male, could easily handle a moderate level of correction, but I rarely needed to go to that level to get him to change his behavior. Then I tried to train my next competitive dog, a female, with the same level of correction ... it took me a couple of years to figure out that she needed at least twice the level of pressure as the male. It depends on the dog.



Claudia M said:


> Once you put a time stamp on your goals the handler is more prone to put too much pressure on the dog and while the dog may accomplish that said task it will wash out for the long run.


Agreed. 
For this reason, I dislike using the word "program" when comes to training a retriever because, to me, it implies a timeline. Some dogs are pushed too fast, while others are not pushed fast enough. Heck, there's a great Labrador who sired a ton of competitive dogs ("Grady"), whose puppies had the reputation of maturing slowly; then when they hit 18 months or so, they turned it on and became very strong field trial dogs. On the other hand, there are some pups that can, maybe even NEED to be pushed faster. (I've got a dog that, I firmly believe, I should have pushed faster; it's my heartfelt opinion that the dog plateaued because I didn't push when it was younger.) I have to remind myself to train the dog that I've got in the manner that IT needs to be trained.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Agreed.
> As Swampcollie noted, it is hugely important to READ THE DOG. Each dog is different with regard to the amount or type of pressure suitable for them. As we have read on this forum, some dogs nearly fold under a harsh tone of voice used by a trainer, while other dogs need a high level of correction just to get their attention. My first truly competitive dog, a male, could easily handle a moderate level of correction, but I rarely needed to go to that level to get him to change his behavior. Then I tried to train my next competitive dog, a female, with the same level of correction ... it took me a couple of years to figure out that she needed at least twice the level of pressure as the male. It depends on the dog.
> 
> 
> ...


I have been fortunate to train with couple Grady pups (Grady recently passed away) and you are absolutely right about them. 
On the other hand regardless of my age I am old school. Too many washed up derby dogs out there because they were pushed too much as puppies to get those Derby points. I never cared for the youngest dog to complete this or that. Not healthy in the first place. I am honestly surprised at how many pups do not have either preliminary OFA or even better Penn Hip only to not have passing hips at the age of two because of how hard they were pushed for the Derby points. 
The FT people I have been around do not care about the Derby. Their training goal is Open - whatever comes is ice-cream on top but not a goal.

Where I differ from them is I never put any of my dogs to the side. They all train together and they all accomplish what they can accomplish as long as they and I have fun. I guess that would never make me a FT person because my duty is towards all my three dogs and not just the one that may (emphasis on may) make me "famous". My goal has never been not will it ever be to win anything but to enjoy my journey with all my dogs. And who knows maybe that is why we keep the momentum up...  All three know when we go to training (funny how when I put the insulated snow pants and jacket on and I went shoveling snow they knew they did not go training) they get all excited and run straight to their car, tail wagging and whining to get into the car crates).


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

OK, my opinion on this. The dogs come hard wired with certain behaviors. Your training can improve them or stifle them. It is understood that there is momentum, more momentum, and even more momentum. The training affects what they have.


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