# Field training for a softie?



## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Today was our second field training session. All in all, it was a good day - Kea got to show off her "hold" skills. We have been practicing with soft bumper, plastic bumper and random items around the house and out in the yard. She understands what hold means, and will carry the objects while doing her obedience. We worked so hard all week!

Today, I learned that my dog is soft, and not in the soft and fuzzy sense. I sort of knew this all along, and it is one of the reasons I want to be involved in her training as opposed to sending her out. Anyway, her feelings are easily hurt by a harsh tone or a light tap on the muzzle. Our trainer said we will need to be careful that we don't ruin this experience for her with too much pressure. This week, she learns fetch, and at some point, she will learn that fetch is not optional. 

Please no arguments about positive vs. negative punishment/reinforcement...I just want to hear some folks who have survived force fetch with a softie. I should add, my girl is not the only softie. I am soft too, and I don't know if I have it in me to hurt her feelings (sorry for the anthropomorphizing. She is my baby, and there's no way around it). I really want us to succeed at this. 

Training ended on a positive note - Kea was exposed to gunfire for the first time when the trainer threw some bumpers for us, and she retrieved them with gusto and brought them back to me


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Many Golden's are "sensitive" to pressure, but very few have a soft temperament. (Most are tough as nails) 
I suspect that as you progress in training you'll find she isn't as "Soft" as she's leading you to believe at this time.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> Many Golden's are "sensitive" to pressure, but very few have a soft temperament. (Most are tough as nails)
> I suspect that as you progress in training you'll find she isn't as "Soft" as she's leading you to believe at this time.


What is the difference between soft and sensitive?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The two are often confused. The way it was explained to me, soft refers to their ability to take physical pain or correction. Most goldens aren't in the least bit soft; quite the opposite, they're very stoic.
Sensitive refers to their response to verbal corrections or their perception of whether or not you are pleased with them, their ability to take pressure.
So to answer your question, you can be VERY successful with a sensitive dog. 
Tito isn't in the least bit soft. He will take a collar correction in stride like nothing happened (or run into a wall while chasing a ball, get up and shake it off...fall off the dog walk in agility, get up and just keep moving). 
But he is very, very sensitive. If you correct him in a stern tone of voice, or he thinks you're mad at him, he just melts into a puddle on the floor.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

@Barb - does it basically come down to their ability to bounce back after a correction as opposed to becoming fearful? 

And doesn't that depend on the clarity of the correction?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Kate, I think it really just has more to do with their response to the correction. Some dogs (my Tiny) you could shout at her like crazy, be really, really mad at her, and she'd just laugh and flip you the paw. Tito if you raise your voice and he knows your angry at him he will go down on his belly on the floor and drop his head on his paws (awww, sorry mom.....do you still love me??). 
Some people have their feeling easily hurt. Some are like a brick. Same with dogs.
As far as the clarity of the correction, it's not really about the correction (IMO), it's more about their perception of your feelings about them in the moment. 
Again not wanting to get into a positive versus negative argument, but dogs can take a lot of negative reinforcement if they understand why the correction was made, and it's made fairly and not in anger, and they understand how to avoid having it happen again. I think that's what you are referring to.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I have one who is both soft and sensitive, Butch (his nick names include Chicken*** and Mr. Cheatypants to give you an idea!) I had to be very certain he understood what I was asking him before I applied pressure, and he needed lots of encouragement in situations involving tough going. You can not jump ahead with these dogs. It has to be very gradual and incremental. If the dog has lots of bird desire you can work past the softness and sensitivity as they also tend to be very attuned to their handler and end up being good team players. If you have soft and sensitive and no prey drive it will be a hard row to hoe....


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Thanks all, I was hoping to hear from pretty much everyone who responded...I crossed my fingers that you'd see this so I wouldn't have to bug you with PMs. 

So I think what I'm dealing with is both soft AND sensitive. Not too soft to the point of being untrainable, but probably a little softer than the average field golden. We are taking it slow, I'm doing my best to be clear in what I'm asking, and I'm also mixing in some fun bumper throws and the occasional marker word and food reward, finding an appropriate balance that works for us. I am really excited to start training in the water, that will be a HUGE motivator for her. 

My goal is a JH title, and the trainer we're working with who has 30+ years of experience and came highly recommended by some well respected breeder folk believes it's totally attainable for us at this point. I trust her assessment since she's definitely seen it all. Prey drive is good to my knowledge. I did use an e-collar to reinforce the recall starting about 6 months ago, and I had another breeder/trainer (different from the one we're currently using) show me how to properly collar condition. Her assessment was that Kea is a very "forgiving" dog and bounces back quickly after being corrected, so I take that as being a good thing, right?


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Soft, sensitive, I always get confused which is which. 
I have a girl with good prey drive, who is compliant and once she understands the rules almost always follows them. On the other side if she doesn't understand the concept she is going to ask for help. This means I have to be sure not to leave any big holes in her training because Winter does not improvise well. It is not that she is not smart. She learns fast and can apply what she has learned in different but similar situations. I think she lacks just a bit of confidence. However, as long as I train in a linear progression that can be built on, we do just fine.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Just wanted to share my experience. I have a more sensitive dog but she is strong as an ox. In the beginning I was overly happy and positive and over time I gradually put a lot more pressure on her. She has toughened up very well and now can take much harder pressure and shrug is off and work harder the next time. It didn't take that long to get her to this point, maybe a few months. So don't worry, it won't last forever for you guys, I'm sure.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

This little girl was so sensitive a prominent pro washed her out and sent her home before even starting FF. I put her completely through formal Basics; e-collar conditioning, water forcing and all. Her's how she came out.






It's all in HOW you do it. I have contended for many years that no dog was ever ruined by an e-collar. Many have been ruined by abusive numb-skulls who were abusing the e-collar.

EvanG


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

EvanG said:


> This little girl was so sensitive a prominent pro washed her out and sent her home before even starting FF. I put her completely through formal Basics; e-collar conditioning, water forcing and all. Her's how she came out.
> 
> Trained influences on retrievers project - YouTube
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing, great video! I just love to see them work. 

I will never let an abusive numb-skull get ahold of my dog, not on my watch! I will have to keep you all posted on how we're doing.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You can do it, and so can your dog. Your dog can have all the skills, and love doing it! Build those skills sequentially, step by step. Nothing happened in that video that your dog cannot learn to do.

EvanG


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

Raider is not soft, but he is definitely sensitive. He can handle physical corrections, but verbal ones, not so much. Tugg on the other hand, is neither soft or sensitive. Dog is tough as nails. And he marches quite often to his own drum, much to my dismay.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

my4goldens said:


> Raider is not soft, but he is definitely sensitive. He can handle physical corrections, but verbal ones, not so much.


Dogs like this often end up being not only smart, but also easy to maintain. Blessed art thou!

Tugg sounds like an Alpha, unfortunately. Best of luck if that is so.

EvanG


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## Sirfoulhook (Dec 2, 2011)

Sounds like you got it under control. Patience and fun. Force fetching is tough. If she has gusto and isn't afraid of the gun you got your self a winner. I'm glad you are with her for the training. 100% correct I think.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Sirfoulhook said:


> Force fetching is tough.


It _can_ be. But it doesn't have to be. Much of how FF goes depends on the mindset of the trainer. Far too many approach it as if they're intent on overwhelming the dog with pressure attempting to 'force' them to open their mouths and fetch. My approach, and the newly popular Hillman program, focus on conditioning the dog to pressure through exposure to low levels and guiding them into correct behavior that turns it off. It takes a little more time and patience, but produces a better result with many more dogs.

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Ahhh, the great "sensitive" vs. "soft" debate. There are as many opinions on the definitions of these two words as there are trainers. The way that I attempt to distinguish these concepts is that a sensitive dog doesn't need a heavy hand to be corrected, but they can be corrected and will carry on with their task (often, they can take a heavier hand than most amateur trainers are willing to dish out); however, after a correction a "soft" dog will not carry on with their task ... a soft dog will fold up and not want to work, they want to quit. Of course, the appearance of being soft can be brought about by the application of too much pressure for the dog or by the trainer's creation of confusion ... heck, even the toughest of dogs succumb under those circumstances. Of course, that's just my way of trying to understand these concepts.

It may be a bit too early for you to make the judgement as to whether Kea is soft and sensitive, or soft, or sensitive, or neither. In fact, with the earlier trainer's assessment of Kea being "forgiving," it seems that she may be sensitive but not soft. Indeed, as Evan stated, the sensitive ones are often the smart ones.

FTGoldens


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Well, we are in week 3. It turns out she's not as soft as I thought...as Swampcollie said in an earlier post, though, she's very good at making me believe she's soft. Actually, I think _I'm_ the soft one, not her  



MillionsofPeaches said:


> Just wanted to share my experience. I have a more sensitive dog but she is strong as an ox. In the beginning I was overly happy and positive and over time I gradually put a lot more pressure on her. She has toughened up very well and now can take much harder pressure and shrug is off and work harder the next time. It didn't take that long to get her to this point, maybe a few months. So don't worry, it won't last forever for you guys, I'm sure.


This is exactly what we're doing. I'm tossing fun bumpers and using lots and lots of praise when she gets it right. I'm also training right before her breakfast and dinner, so she knows when it's over she'll get food. She'll take the bumper from my hand probably about 50% of the time with no pressure at all. Sometimes it seems like we take two steps forward and one step back. Hold has improved tremendously. We can do the whole obedience routine off-leash with her holding the bumper and I can swat at the bumper from the side to try to dislodge it and she'll tighten her grip. I want to make absolutely certain she knows exactly what I'm asking before increasing the pressure.



EvanG said:


> It _can_ be. But it doesn't have to be. Much of how FF goes depends on the mindset of the trainer. Far too many approach it as if they're intent on overwhelming the dog with pressure attempting to 'force' them to open their mouths and fetch. My approach, and the newly popular Hillman program, focus on conditioning the dog to pressure through exposure to low levels and guiding them into correct behavior that turns it off. It takes a little more time and patience, but produces a better result with many more dogs.
> 
> EvanG


I like this philosophy, especially for a dog like mine who has never been trained in this way using pressure. I wish you were closer to Colorado. 



FTGoldens said:


> Ahhh, the great "sensitive" vs. "soft" debate. There are as many opinions on the definitions of these two words as there are trainers. The way that I attempt to distinguish these concepts is that a sensitive dog doesn't need a heavy hand to be corrected, but they can be corrected and will carry on with their task (often, they can take a heavier hand than most amateur trainers are willing to dish out); however, after a correction a "soft" dog will not carry on with their task ... a soft dog will fold up and not want to work, they want to quit. Of course, the appearance of being soft can be brought about by the application of too much pressure for the dog or by the trainer's creation of confusion ... heck, even the toughest of dogs succumb under those circumstances. Of course, that's just my way of trying to understand these concepts.
> 
> It may be a bit too early for you to make the judgement as to whether Kea is soft and sensitive, or soft, or sensitive, or neither. In fact, with the earlier trainer's assessment of Kea being "forgiving," it seems that she may be sensitive but not soft. Indeed, as Evan stated, the sensitive ones are often the smart ones.
> 
> FTGoldens


Yes, sensitive but not overly soft. I think this is where she falls. She's very smart. Last week, she got VERY excited when we were done with fetch practice (taking bumper from hand) and the trainer went to get a load of bumpers and the gun for retrieves. She headed straight to the gate leading to the field. It was good to see her so excited!


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