# The cost of a Golden puppy



## Vhuynh2

$1,500 is a small price to pay compared to the money you will have to spend on vet fees if you bought a $300 dog without health clearances. It is just more likely that the $1,500 dog with clearances will have less health problems down the line than a puppy from a backyard breeder without clearances. A puppy selling for $300 is unlikely to have generations of dogs with health clearances behind it. Not only that, but you may find that the poorly bred dog may not exhibit the golden traits that you love. To answer your question, the price of a quality bred dog is the range that you stated, about $1,000-$1,500. Of course, no matter what the price is, you must make sure that the parents have all four clearances and preferably the grandparents and great grandparents as well. 

If you cannot afford $1,000-$1,500 for a quality puppy from a reputable breeder, I'm sorry, but now is not the time for you to get a dog. The responsible thing to do is to wait for the right time, like many of us have (and we know how tough it is to wait), so you can give your dog the life it deserves. To be financially secure is to ensure that you will never have to choose to put a dog down or give it away because of a health problem you cannot afford to treat. I was hesitant to pay so much for a puppy, but after doing the research, I could not bring myself to buy from a breeder who doesn't do clearances. You don't want an unhealthy dog, and you certainly don't want to support backyard breeders by giving them your money. Of course, another great option is to rescue.


----------



## Sashiro

I don't know for a fact that they don't have health clearances. I do know they are AKC registered, so there's that.
I just can't see myself spending $1,500 on a dog. That is a lot of money to me.
I've talked to the breeder and she seems to really care about her dogs. 
I just don't know.  I really, REALLY want a dog. Badly. So badly.


----------



## cavaliermom81

Take it from someone who is dealing with the repercussions of a not so hot (well she was deceitful so I actually paid a high price) breeder. She assured me she had all the clearances for health even mri's. She did give me a bit of a discount because the pup I choose ended up being last of his litter and she was having knee surgery and needed him to have a family asap. (hard to explain, I wanted that one a month before then I had a family emergency, when I called a month later he was still there) 

Now I have this beautiful handsome, sweet, loving, loyal, gentle, playful, smart, ect Cavalier king charles who is my best little sidekick, I am so very attached and love him dearly, and he is showing signs of Syringomyellia at this young age of 10 months. 

It turns out the breeder was not truthful about MRI's she did on her breeding dogs, she also lied about his pedagree, I was told later that his grandfather was a puppy mill dog.. WHAT THE HECK? augh! I was happy I got a bit of a discount, but in reality a good breeder would not have discounted him at all. I love him and wouldn't trade him for any dog in the world, we are just at the watch phase, rule out other things, he is not showing symptoms often enough for an MRI nor is he acting like he is in pain, so we just wait and see right now. But every scratching fit sends my heart into my stomach. If he has it we will treat him, until it progresses, and give him the most fun awesome life we can even though it will be short, and painful without his Meds. Hoping the symptoms turn out to be normal puppy stuff and his hatered of wet ears

Now I have no proof as of right now that these things didn't happen by the breeder, just that I am told an investigation has been launched on her. that this is what is suspected of her. (there was more) the MRI's I know are true because she later told me she didn't mri.. but honestly hardly any breeders in this country do so it is hard to go on that.


----------



## Jamm

Hi there!  Welcome to the forum. You should check this thread.. ---> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...n/114642-some-help-buying-1st-time-buyer.html 

Its a similar situation and there are many posts explaining how a pup who is $300 could be a red flag...

my dog Joey was $1000 but I saved up much more then that for vet stuff, toys, food, crate, classes, etc.. and Im in college as well. Take your time and don't rush into things, save up, research and find the right breeder. I know different areas charge different.. so I know $1000 in my area is normal for a well bred pet pup. Talk to your local golden club and ask for breeder referrals... hopefully some TN members can chime in on good breeders as well!


----------



## Jamm

Sashiro said:


> I don't know for a fact that they don't have health clearances. I do know they are AKC registered, so there's that.
> I just can't see myself spending $1,500 on a dog. That is a lot of money to me.
> I've talked to the breeder and she seems to really care about her dogs.
> I just don't know.  I really, REALLY want a dog. Badly. So badly.


I will stress again, don't rush into it and get a dog because you really want one. They go through a land shark faze.. do you know what that is? are you prepared to have your pup swallow a sock and have to have a $1500 surgery? What if you go with the $300 pup and in a year you find out he has HD and needs multiple $1000 surgeries.... Yes those are risks you can take when also going with a reputable breeder... but the breeder has clearance on the hips, elbows, eyes, and heart... many good breeders also have a written guarantee and stand behind their dogs... Good luck with the $300 breeder helping you out with multiple thousand dollar vet bills. Take your time, no need to rush. Maybe look at rescuing a pup from a shelter? Good luck and again take your time. As I said in my post above, I saved for Joey for about 6 months.. I managed to save $3000 which I still have and its growing as i have an emergency fund as well. That covered everything in his first year.

edit: also, i don't live in USA but ive read numerous times on this forum that parents being AKC reg doesn't mean squat... clearances are your golden treasure


----------



## ckshin05

Currently I was in your situation Sashiro, but the fact is I started to think. It's a puppy mill, no way is it that cheap. Also if they are not cleared I am going to pay more then the difference and the heartache is going to be much worse. I have wanted a Golden Retriever since I was a kid. That was 18 years ago, and I did research to purchase one 4 years ago. I waited till it was the right time and so far it is. I have the funds for the puppy, vet, toys, food, crate, and back up money for emergancies.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I would be shocked if $300 dogs had any clearances on the parents, let alone further back.. And I would be somewhat nervous selling you a dog as you referenced previous health issues that made you give your dog up. How would I, as a breeder know that it wouldn't happen with a pup I sold you?


----------



## ckshin05

As Jamm put it. AKC registered means nothing. It doesn't mean it's cleared, and the pedigree is intact.


----------



## goldhaven

I know that none of this is what you wanted to hear but I think that the reason that you posted here is because you needed to hear what everyone is saying. 

I can feel how much you want this puppy. I really do, but think about how hard it was to give up your dog when you got sick. Is this something that you would want to happen again? What would happen if the pup got sick and you couldn't afford the vet bills? Would you give up the dog to save its life? 

When you consider getting a puppy or a dog, please remember, that the cost of the dog/puppy is the least expensive part of owning them. 

There is another thread that was recently started about the annual cost of owning a golden. 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...675-annual-costs-owning-golden-retriever.html

Read this over and see if this is something that you are ready to handle. 

While you may think that $300 is a good deal, it may not be in the long run in terms of a healthy dog. 

If you decide to just go and see this litter, I can almost guarantee that you will bring one home, so my advice is not to even go and see it. 

Start saving up your money now and start researching reputable breeders. It sometimes takes a year or more to get one of their pups anyway and by then you will have enough money to purchase and care for your new pup. 

Good luck to you and I hope that one day you will find the puppy of your dreams.


----------



## Capt Jack

I understand the Golden fever as well as does everyone on here but take your time & save some money before you make a move imagine how horrible it would be to give up another dog(I'm so sorry about your first one)Maybe volinteer at a rescue or a doggie daycare for a temporary fix & think about rescueing a Golden instead of buying a pup when the time comes.Just a thought.Good luck in whatever you decide


----------



## MikaTallulah

Don't be ruled by puppy fever.

IMO should have at least $3,000 put aside for pup before you get them. Money is needed to meet their needs. Love can do a lot but it can't buy food, vaccines, etc.

I agree with Capt. Jack- Volunteer to get your puppy fix or rescue. Don't purchase from a BYB greeder.

Best of luck finding your new addition once everything is set up properly.


----------



## cavaliermom81

why not look into a rescue golden? The only way I would get another cav is if it was a rescue. They are my favorite breed but it doesn't seem like the health tests are working to prevent a lot of their problems.


----------



## nolefan

I know it feels like you just can't wait another day for the dog you want much less another year or two. I remember being younger and thinking that only when I was young and fun would I enjoy having a convertible or a horse or a trip to Europe. I promise you that waiting for things that you truly have your heart set on only makes you enjoy them more. I truly appreciate all the things that I have had to wait for. You will too. (I still don't have my horse, I may be 60 till I finally figure it out, but I promise that I will be every bit as happy and excited as I would have when I was 6 or 16).

Please wait to bring a dog back into your life until you are more stable financially and are able to provide a homelife that is truly secure. It really is the responsible thing to do.


----------



## Sashiro

I really don't think this is a puppy mill. I will go see the parents and where they're kept to be sure.
I don't think I can make myself pay $1,500 for a dog. That just seems like way too much. I do have some money set aside for vet bills, vaccinations, etc and I have already purchased a crate, chews, leash, etc etc, so that is taken care of.

Getting the dog spayed/neutered won't be a problem as there is a clinic here that does it for $35 for college students.

I actually got some messages from people saying that backyard breeders weren't always a bad thing. Some really do care for their animals and do get them checked by a vet. I still think I'm going to get one.

To those worried about me having to give the dog up due to my "health" issues...well... I wasn't entirely truthful. It was mental health issues. I have Bipolar Disorder (bipolar 1) and was being frequently hospitalized because of it. I am stable now, though constantly lonely and depressed. My case manager, therapist, and I were all hopeful that a dog would help me. I don't just want one, I _need_ one. I know that sounds stupid but...it's true.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Backyard breeders are UNETHICAL breeders. They do NOT care about the breed at all. They breed their dogs simply because they have two purebreds, or has a friend who has one to breed with. Their only concern is PROFIT. They DON'T do the necessary health clearances. Goldens are PRONE to joint problems and if genetics are NOT on their side, they are likely to cost you thousands of dollars in treatment. If you know two people are likely to produce a child with a genetic defect, would they NOT get genetic counseling to see their chances of producing a sick or healthy child? Dogs need to be cleared in HEART, EYES, ELBOW, AND HIPS before they are to be bred. It is not enough to "get them checked by a vet". Come on, do your research before you buy a dog. To say backyard breeders are "not that bad" because they care for their dogs is simply *ignorant*.


----------



## mommyof5

I have to say I agree with everyone else. I know $1000-$1500 doesn't sound like a lot but what if the pup you purchase has hip displaysia or parvo or worse or something very serious? Would you be able to afford to take care of the vet bills for it? $300 is very cheap for a pup. AKC just means it's a purebred registered dog. I'm sorry you have bipolar. My heart goes out to you for that and I honestly do understand you want and need this puppy. However, PLEASE research and make sure this puppy is healthy before you purchase it or find one that is. $300 seems awfully cheap and you may wind up spending much more then $300 on veterinary costs in the long run. I'd just love to save you that heart ache now.


----------



## goldhaven

Sashiro said:


> I really don't think this is a puppy mill. I will go see the parents and where they're kept to be sure.
> I don't think I can make myself pay $1,500 for a dog. That just seems like way too much. I do have some money set aside for vet bills, vaccinations, etc and I have already purchased a crate, chews, leash, etc etc, so that is taken care of.
> 
> Getting the dog spayed/neutered won't be a problem as there is a clinic here that does it for $35 for college students.
> 
> I actually got some messages from people saying that backyard breeders weren't always a bad thing. Some really do care for their animals and do get them checked by a vet. I still think I'm going to get one.
> 
> To those worried about me having to give the dog up due to my "health" issues...well... I wasn't entirely truthful. It was mental health issues. I have Bipolar Disorder (bipolar 1) and was being frequently hospitalized because of it. I am stable now, though constantly lonely and depressed. My case manager, therapist, and I were all hopeful that a dog would help me. I don't just want one, I _need_ one. I know that sounds stupid but...it's true.


The reason that you are getting this advice is because no one wants to see BYB's encouraged to continue breeding and by buying one you are supporting their breeding substandard dogs. 

That being said, I understand your reasons behind wanting and getting this pup. Whether I agree with it or not is not the issue. 

If you do decide to get the pup, you will need lots of support and advice and this is definitely the place to get it, and as always make sure you post lots of pictures. 

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.


----------



## nixietink

Since you don't want to wait...what about rescuing?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> Backyard breeders are UNETHICAL breeders. They do NOT care about the breed at all. They breed their dogs simply because they have two purebreds, or has a friend who has one to breed with. Their only concern is PROFIT. They DON'T do the necessary health clearances. Goldens are PRONE to joint problems and if genetics are NOT on their side, they are likely to cost you thousands of dollars in treatment. If you know two people are likely to produce a child with a genetic defect, would they NOT get genetic counseling to see their chances of producing a sick or healthy child? Dogs need to be cleared in HEART, EYES, ELBOW, AND HIPS before they are to be bred. It is not enough to "get them checked by a vet". Come on, do your research before you buy a dog.* To say backyard breeders are "not that bad" because they care for their dogs is simply ignorant*.


I'm not ignorant and depending on the breeder. They are all not that bad Infact I thank her on a regular basis for having his litter.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm not ignorant and depending on the breeder. They are all not that bad Infact I thank her on a regular basis for having his litter.


I guess it depends on your definition of a backyard breeder. Someone who does not show their dogs but does the clearances.. that I am more okay with. But most people would want the peace of mind clearances will bring them. And it's not right to breed dysplastic dogs, or dogs that have other genetic issues. Sure, clearances are not 100%, but the odds would be in your favor. Plus, if the OP can only afford $300 and won't pay $1,500 for a puppy, it seems unlikely that he would pay for even more expensive surgery and treatments for accidents and illnesses when/if they occur.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> I guess it depends on your definition of a backyard breeder. Someone who does not show their dogs but does the clearances.. that I am more okay with. But most people would want the peace of mind clearances will bring them. And it's not right to breed dysplastic dogs, or dogs that have other genetic issues. Sure, clearances are not 100%, but the odds would be in your favor. Plus, if the OP can only afford $300 and won't pay $1,500 for a puppy, it seems unlikely that he would pay for even more expensive surgery and treatments for accidents and illnesses when/if they occur.


Just because someone refuses to pay thousands of dollars on a dog does not mean they have no extra funds for medical expenses or insurance. They did say they had extra money put away for health expenses.

I'd be more worried that being young and in college and having the time and commitment to care for the puppy.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Just because someone refuses to pay thousands of dollars on a dog does not mean they have no extra funds for medical expenses or insurance.


It doesn't, but I don't have much faith in the OP when they are deciding to go against all the advice on here. Money should not be an issue at all, because vet fees could end up being WAY more than just a few thousand dollars. It really seems like they are following their heart instead of being sensible and following their brain. If they can save up for health expenses, then they can definitely save up to buy a dog with clearances. It's the instant gratification the OP is interested in. He/she wants a dog NOW and that is clouding his judgement.


----------



## golden_eclipse

The first three puppy visits could easily add up to $800 depending on your vet, and if your puppy has worms or a UTI, both very common in BYB pups, and others for that matter. Let alone food costs and if something like your puppy eating a sock happens, what do you do? 
I am a college student, I also happen to show my dog, and I work very very hard to train him, keep him in shape and give him the socialization he needs while in school (mechanical Engineering for that matter), it is not easy, and might add more stress than anything else, at least for the first year. Golden puppies can be very difficult.

I would strongly suggest the OP look at a golden retriever rescue, they desperately need their older goldens be adopted, these dogs might need vet care, but I know the rescue up here helps a lot in that regard if you get a senior golden. An old golden will need less constant attention and would be a good choice for a college student and someone who might need a therapy dog.


BYB are bad and no one can use logic to argue otherwise, science and research have proven doing clearances WILL reduce expensive health problems that plague our breed, doing otherwise will only increase those problems in the breed, that is bad, no matter how you look at it.


----------



## Jamm

You don't need to pay $1500 for a puppy. Rescue a golden puppy for maybe $500 (depending on your area) Just again don't go to a BYB because you really want a puppy. My best friend has bipolar and I know as long as you're on top of your medicine your good.. so i'm sorry but I wouldn't use that as an excuse as you 'wanting and needing' a puppy right now. Do your research.


----------



## Ninde'Gold

I agree, you don't have to pay $1500, there are TONS of dogs in shelters waiting for a home.

I will say that even though Tucker was only $575, I then had to spend hundreds on medicines for the first 3 or 4 months of his life as he was sick.


----------



## Deb_Bayne

I got Bayne from a Hobby Breeder, some may call a BYB but she's been doing this for 8 years and all her litters have been healthy. I only paid $450 +tax and now at 15 months of age he's been extremely healthy. The most I'll be paying in the near future is for his neutering and that's only $325 including the overnight stay. 

You make your choices and go with your heart and feelings, any doubt at all back away but don't let that doubt be from sources other than your heart.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

And on the other hand I paid $1500 dollars for Cody thru a reputable breeder with all clearances. Thru out his 10 years I believe I shelled out over $60,000. Oh but one good thing, he never had hip problems.


----------



## Kmullen

I am in shock that people on her are saying byb are ok!!! I am just in shock.... so sad! Nothing else really to say!


----------



## Jamm

kfayard said:


> I am in shock that people on her are saying byb are ok!!! I am just in shock.... so sad! Nothing else really to say!


A very similar thread I was in last night had the same vibe... I was dumb founded by it.


----------



## MyBentley

Wyatt's mommy said:


> *Just because someone refuses to pay thousands of dollars on a dog does not mean they have no extra funds for medical expenses or insuranc*e. They did say they had extra money put away for health expenses.
> 
> I'd be more worried that being young and in college and having the time and commitment to care for the puppy.


I think this is very true. This is a subject I always feel very torn about.

Before I even knew about breeders who show and are very professional in their approach to breeding (all tests and clearances), I bought my Bentley (now 11 yrs.) from a farmer in Iowa who had a litter once every couple of years. I saw the sire and dam, knew they were AKC and the dogs seemed to have good temperaments. I purchased him for $250 . . . didn't even ask about clearances.

Outside of a torn ACL when he was 3 years old (due to a sports injury) and not tolerating some grains, he has been an extremely healthy dog. I've paid no more in vet bills through the years with Bentley than I have with my almost 5 year old lab who was one of a litter from parents who had every clearance in the book and were show dogs with impeccable lineage.

Some may say I just got lucky, but I think we paint with too broad of a brush stroke when we project the idea that you'll pay thousand of dollars in vet bills if you buy from a "back yard breeder" but be "in the clear" with a puppy from a breeding with the highest standards.

I appreciate and know we need breeders who are carefully checking for health and promoting the breed standard in both appearance and temperament. At the same time, I fear that we are pricing the middle class and below out of the experience of raising a pure bred puppy - both in the initial price of a purebred puppy and in the expectation that every conceivable medical test and procedure available must be utilized through the years to be considered a responsible dog parent. It just seems like there must be some middle ground.

To the OP: Puppies are extremely time-consuming and demanding - although super cute. Take time to consider if a somewhat older dog might be an option; or a golden rescue; etc. Explore all the avenues before deciding what direction you want to go.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

MyBentley said:


> I think this is very true. This is a subject I always feel very torn about.
> 
> Before I even knew about breeders who show and are very professional in their approach to breeding (all tests and clearances), I bought my Bentley (now 11 yrs.) from a farmer in Iowa who had a litter once every couple of years. I saw the sire and dam, knew they were AKC and the dogs seemed to have good temperaments. I purchased him for $250 . . . didn't even ask about clearances.
> 
> Outside of a torn ACL when he was 3 years old (due to a sports injury) and not tolerating some grains, he has been an extremely healthy dog. I've paid no more in vet bills through the years with Bentley than I have with my almost 5 year old lab who was one of a litter from parents who had every clearance in the book and were show dogs with impeccable lineage.
> 
> *Some may say I just got lucky, but I think we paint with too broad of a brush stroke when we project the idea that you'll pay thousand of dollars in vet bills if you buy from a "back yard breeder" but be "in the clear" with a puppy from a breeding with the highest standards.*
> 
> I appreciate and know we need breeders who are carefully checking for health and promoting the breed standard in both appearance and temperament. At the same time, I fear that we are pricing the middle class and below out of the experience of raising a pure bred puppy - both in the initial price of a purebred puppy and in the expectation that every conceivable medical test and procedure available must be utilized through the years to be considered a responsible dog parent. It just seems like there must be some middle ground.
> 
> To the OP: Puppies are extremely time-consuming and demanding - although super cute. Take time to consider if a somewhat older dog might be an option; or a golden rescue; etc. Explore all the avenues before deciding what direction you want to go.


So far I have been "lucky" with Wyatt also lol! 

I think it would be really helpful for people to honestly post on here medical problems/expenses that thier dogs got/have even though they were purchased from a reputable breeder with all clearances instead of just saying that the odds are in your favor. Or at least post all the costs for testing that they had to shell out because it was in the breeder contract. lol.
It would be interesting.


----------



## akgolden

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Just because someone refuses to pay thousands of dollars on a dog does not mean they have no extra funds for medical expenses or insurance. They did say they had extra money put away for health expenses.


I agree. There is the old saying you get what you pay for but usually that's not applied to living creatures, more so manufactured items. You can screen and check all you want but they are still a living, breathing animal and things can happen, get over looked.

When we got our lab she was AKC papered and supposedly came from a great background. We were originally going to pay $600 for the pup but due to the pup getting a UTI before going to get her the breeder gave us a discount and also all the paper work from the vet and medications. We ended up paying $400 and had paper saying it was just a UTI from the vet and just some antibiotics were needed. 



Fast forward to today. She is a little over 2 years old and I have over 10k invested in her. Turns out that UTI was actually a very very rare condition called ectopic urter. She was party of the family the day we got her and once we found out her condition I felt I owed it to her to try the surgeries and procedures to stop her from leaking. 

You can't plan for everything, paying x amount wont assure you will have a trouble free dog.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Of course, people can get "lucky" with a backyard bred dog, but please, do not encourage or suggest that it is OK to buy from a BYB. Are reputable breeders just being stupid by shelling out the money for clearances when they could maximize profit by not doing them? Unless they do the clearances, ALL BYBs are _that_ bad. If you have the money and the gambling spirit to take the chance, and the conscience to support unethical breeders, then fine. I guess nothing could convince you otherwise.


----------



## Doolin

Wyatt's mommy said:


> So far I have been "lucky" with Wyatt also lol!
> 
> I think it would be really helpful for people to honestly post on here medical problems/expenses that thier dogs got even though they were purchased from a reputable breeder with all clearances instead of just saying that the odds are in your favor. Or at least post all the costs for testing that they had to shell out because it was in the breeder contract. lol.
> It would be interesting.


I am almost speechless at this post.....I don't gamble, at anything! Insinuating that breeding ethically may not put the odds in your favor is just plain ??????? Don't know what word to put there.

To believe that it is not of the utmost importance to do clearances to improve and protect the breed, shouldn't even be considered. There is nothing more important to the breed than ethical breeders. Those who do not take into account health, temperament, and structure have no right to disgrace the breed with litters. I have seen too many poorly bred goldens come through my boarding kennel to believe their breeders are anything but unethical! I don't care how many times you tell me their breeders really do care about them..... they surely don't care about the puppy's future or yours if they don't protect them from genetic diseases!


----------



## Max's Dad

I am in the minority here. Our current dog, Max, is from a backyard breeder. He cost $350. We had lost our golden of 14+ years and I was lonely for another pup and it had to be a GR. I saw an ad in the local paper for AKC pups and we went over to take a look.
We were greeted at the door by about 10 Goldens, including the two pups they had left from the latest litter. Among the goldens was a golden that had been the "runt" at one time that the breeders had kept.
It was obvious from the moment we walked-in that these people truly loved their Goldens and were not selling them just for the money. All the dogs lived inside the house, which was remarkedly clean and well taken care of. Their dogs were lovely and friendly-- typical Goldens.
Max gravitated to my wife. He was already about 30 lbs at just under 3 months. He was a "land shark" for a while, but has turned into the most wonderful dog we have ever known. He is well adjusted, social with other dogs and people. He is calm and truly a gentle giant. At nearly two years old, he has had zero health issues, other than an elbow bursa sac. Max is way bigger than the standard GR, but is as fine a companion dog as you could find.

I suggest you go visit the breeder and get to know the dogs and the breeder. See what the environment is like. Maybe they can give you references. If everything looks OK, and you meet a pup you like, take a chance. 
Good luck!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> *Of course, people can get "lucky" with a backyard bred dog,* but please, do not encourage or suggest that it is OK to buy from a BYB. Are reputable breeders just being stupid by shelling out the money for clearances when they could maximize profit by not doing them? Unless they do the clearances, ALL BYBs are _that_bad. If you have the money and the gambling spirit to take the chance, and the conscience to support unethical breeders, then fine. I guess nothing could convince you otherwise.


Is it really luck? When I posted I got lucky I was joking. I don't feel I got lucky at all. 

I have nothing against reputable breeders and no I don't think they are stupid. In fact I still have a great relationship with one that cost me over $60,000.


----------



## Vhuynh2

MyBentley said:


> Some may say I just got lucky, but I think we paint with too broad of a brush stroke when we project the idea that you'll pay thousand of dollars in vet bills if you buy from a "back yard breeder" but be "in the clear" with a puppy from a breeding with the highest standards.


Oh, I know I'm not in the clear. Why else would I still be carrying my 30 lb puppy up and down 5 stories of stairs multiple times a day every day whenever she needs to potty? I paid the price for an excellently bred puppy. Now I am removing as many environmental risks as I can. The odds are probably on my side, but with a backyard bred dog, you can't know.


----------



## Angelina

There is a big difference between a BYB and a puppy mill. I would have no problem buying from a family who breeds their dogs once a year or every other year and socializes them; makes sure they are healthy and have good homes. I have a friend who does that with her black labs and her extended family get most of them. That is very different then a puppymill that breeds as many as possible; gets them out as young as possible and could care less about their futures.

As far as clearance go; well I have 2 rescues with no clearances and no issues. Someone stated that if you don't get clearances you will be paying thousands of dollars in health costs. No way. I really wish there was a database for some of these dogs that get cancer young or other issues and find out if they all had clearances or not. There are no guarantees in life or health. And it isn't either get a dog with clearnance or have issues. Life is not black and white like that...

But, it is only responsible to make sure you can take care of an animal, any animal, for its entire life before you commit to it. Financially, emotionally..sure things happen, but start off right and do the best you can by it. There are many great dogs out there that need good homes. I can't stress enough how rewarding rescuing one is and would never not rescue because of lack of 'clearances'...


----------



## Kmullen

Okay now I have to chime in! :no:



I am the "middle class." I purchased my golden after my 1st year old of college and had to save every penny to do so. Did I complain about how much? Did I go to a BYB because I wanted a puppy now...no.

A BYB is not the same as a hobby breeder. A BYB may not mean that it is a puppy mill. But, even if someone has one litter with no clearances....they are still a BYB. How can someone say "well they care about their dogs" if they most likely do not know what is behind the dog or even do proper clearances.

I can not sit here and let people deminimize reputable breeders. They do extensive testing to make sure their lines are better than the previous. Will there be some unhealthy ones? Yes! But, they are trying to eliminate the problem. 

I would sooooo much rather go to someone who is FIGHTING for the breed, NOT AGAINST it.

Yes, my first golden died under the age of 2 from SAS and he did have HD to go along with that. I consider the breeder an un-reputable breeder. Some of you had an issue with a reputable one....but there is no way I would go to a BYB because I had a health issue with my dog. 

I would love to call a local ad in the paper that is selling goldens for $400 and ask them if they know what "SAS" or "PU" was? Most likely they do not know. That is such an injustice to the breed!

If they put no money into the parents. Just say they have 8 puppies and they sold for $400...do the math. That is $3200 in their pocket. Couldn't they use that to do testing?? Where as reputable breeders take that money and put it back into their own dogs. 

And if people keep turning to BYB, how can we help this breed. You do not have to want a show golden, but you should want a healthy one.

If someone could once pay for a $500 golden, what is another 1,000 or less to go to a reputable breeder that really does love the BREED not just THEIR DOG!! 

Just my two cents!!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Doolin said:


> I am almost speechless at this post.....I don't gamble, at anything!* Insinuating that breeding ethically may not put the odds in your favor is just plain ?*?????? Don't know what word to put there.
> 
> To believe that it is not of the utmost importance to do clearances to improve and protect the breed, shouldn't even be considered. There is nothing more important to the breed than ethical breeders. Those who do not take into account health, temperament, and structure have no right to disgrace the breed with litters. I have seen too many poorly bred goldens come through my boarding kennel to believe their breeders are anything but unethical! I don't care how many times you tell me their breeders really do care about them..... they surely don't care about the puppy's future or yours if they don't protect them from genetic diseases!


Where did I insinuate that???????????????????? I just would like to know about other people like me that had health problems with their dogs. I don't know any of the breeder of the dogs that came thru your kennel nor do I advocate puppy mills.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Is it really luck? When I posted I got lucky I was joking. I don't feel I got lucky at all.
> 
> I have nothing against reputable breeders and no I don't think they are stupid. In fact I still have a great relationship with one that cost me over $60,000.


If I got a puppy from a BYB, I would be grateful too, that they had that litter. I would love my puppy no matter what. However, would you really buy from them again?


----------



## Doolin

YES IT IS REALLY LUCK TO GET A HEALTHY PUPPY FROM A BYB. 

To suggest that it is an OK place to get a dog because they live in the house and are well taken care of is kind of ignorant. Says nothing about what you are getting in the puppy in regards to temperament and health! 

There is a reason the reputable breeders only breed the healthy individuals, and go even further and breed their girls to males that are producing healthy puppies.... It's called common sense. Do you think populations survive by breeding unhealthy individuals.....not likely. They definitely don't thrive!

I have to apologize, but I am very passionate about this breed and to suggest that anything less than a breeder who does all clearances is an alright place to get a puppy really upsets me. I know what it takes to do it right and am offended by those breeders that do not!


----------



## Kmullen

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Where did I insinuate that???????????????????? I just would like to know about other people like me that had health problems with their dogs. I don't know any of the breeder of the dogs that came thru your kennel nor do I advocate puppy mills.


You do not advocate Puppy mills but you can advocate BYB????:doh:


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> If I got a puppy from a BYB, I would be grateful too, that they had that litter. I would love my puppy no matter what. *However, would you really buy from them again*?


Wyatt's breeder? In a heart beat. Codys? Even though she is a friend and great reputable breeder? No.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> You do not advocate Puppy mills but you can advocate BYB????:doh:


Not all byb are puppy mills.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Wyatt's breeder? In a heart beat. Codys? Even though she is a friend and great reputable breeder? No.


So you really would go back to a BYB instead of trying to find another reputable breeder?


----------



## Kmullen

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Not all byb are puppy mills.


Did I say they were??? They are still BYB....who might care for their own dogs, but not the breed. JMHO


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Doolin said:


> *YES IT IS REALLY LUCK TO GET A HEALTHY PUPPY FROM A BYB. *
> 
> To suggest that it is an OK place to get a dog because they live in the house and are well taken care of is kind of ignorant. Says nothing about what you are getting in the puppy in regards to temperament and health!
> 
> There is a reason the reputable breeders only breed the healthy individuals, and go even further and breed their girls to males that are producing healthy puppies.... *It's called common sense*. Do you think populations survive by breeding unhealthy individuals.....not likely. They definitely don't thrive!


Ok common sense, how can you prove it was luck? How can you prove I was unlucky with the health problems I had with the reputable breeder?

However your human breeding comment gave me a huge chuckle lol!


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Ok common sense, how can you prove it was luck? How can you prove I was unlucky with the health problems I had with the reputable breeder?
> 
> However your human breeding comment gave me a huge chuckle lol!


It's luck because the odds were probably not on your side. And you were unlucky with the health problems because the odds should've been on your side that time.


----------



## debra1704

I do agree, now that I've been on this forum & have learned so much from so many of you, that having generations of clearances, all four clearances, is very important. However, I think that more effort perhaps should be put into mentoring a breeder who perhaps doesn't know any better. As for our breeder, she did 2 of the 4 clearances correctly, and I think someone like her could be encouraged to do all four clearances and comply with what apparently is the current recommendations for a breeder. As an analogy, I had a retail business for 20+ years, and when I started, there was a lot I did not know. I am very thankful for those who took the time to take me under their wings & show me the ropes. I think there are likely breeders out there who believe they are doing everything right, but just don't know any better, and I think our breeder is one of those people. 

On another note, our last dog lived to 16, and aside from the mange which she had when we rescued her & had to spend money to treat, she was problem free until this past winter, right up until the end. She ONLY went to the vet for her annual check ups, and when she was spayed. That was it. I never imagined she would have been so healthy.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> Did I say they were??? They are still BYB....who might care for their own dogs, but not the breed. JMHO


I have no doubt my breeder cared for the breed.


----------



## Doolin

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Ok common sense, how can you prove it was luck? How can you prove I was unlucky with the health problems I had with the reputable breeder?
> 
> However your human breeding comment gave me a huge chuckle lol!


There was no human breeding comment. That was a population dynamics comment as I am a Wildlife Ecologist. That comment was for populations in general.... a population does not have to be human


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> So you really would go back to a BYB instead of trying to find another reputable breeder?


Since nothing is 100% guaranteed absolutely. But I probably will be rescuing and older one next time.


----------



## Kmullen

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I have no doubt my breeder cared for the breed.


 
Oh, so they just did not believe in doing clearances?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Doolin said:


> There was no human breeding comment. That was a population dynamics comment as I am a Wildlife Ecologist. That comment was for populations in general.... a population does not have to be human


LOL! I thought you were talking about some people I know


----------



## Doolin

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I have no doubt my breeder cared for the breed.


If she didn't do clearances and research pedigrees..... I have not doubt she doesn't care about the breed. Or isn't educated....


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> Oh, so they just did not believe in doing clearances?


Both parents have full clearances. The pups don't. And I have no desire to even have him tested.


----------



## Kmullen

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Both parents have full clearances. The pups don't. And I have no desire to even have him tested.


????????????


----------



## debra1704

Oops, I think I posted this reply to the wrong thread!


----------



## mooselips

When I started looking for a Golden last November, I knew I wanted a dog that had a good health history, therefore I did not look at the pups that were listed in the paper, I contacted breeders.

I looked at their dogs health histories and clearances.

My dogs are part of my family, I want the best possible addition to our family, therefore, I contacted a breeder.

I've had a previous English Setter that I bought without knowing the exact history of the dog, and I believe she came from a puppy mill, or a BYB.

The dog had multiple mental issues.
One issue, although minor is, she hated the water. I called the breeder, asked her any idea why? She said, well heck, when they bark in the kennel I spray them with the hose.

I could go on and on...although that dog sure had a good life here for 13 years......

I was flabbergasted.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Both parents have full clearances. The pups don't. And I have no desire to even have him tested.


Sorry, I thought they had no clearances, as that was my definition of what a backyard breeder is. Puppies don't get clearances. They can be done by the owner when they're over 2.

To each their own.. I'm the anal type who needs to know everything. I will have Molly tested for at least her hips when she is 2. And I am more comfortable knowing that she has generations of clearances behind her, than just her parents. Other people are comfortable not knowing.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> It's luck because the odds were probably not on your side. And you were unlucky with the health problems because the odds should've been on your side that time.


ROFL! Excellent! Now can you read my crystal ball and tell me how my future Mexico retirement plans look?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> ????????????


Oh I lied. They didn't get their eyes checked.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> ROFL! Excellent! Now can you read my crystal ball and tell me how my future Mexico retirement plans look?


Ok, this is seriously getting juvenile. I don't know, you should know how your odds are in retiring in Mexico, and if it doesn't happen, then.. omg what am I doing?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> Sorry, I thought they had no clearances, as that was my definition of what a backyard breeder is. Puppies don't get clearances. They can be done by the owner when they're over 2.
> 
> To each their own.. I'm the anal type who needs to know everything. I will have Molly tested for at least her hips when she is 2. And I am more comfortable knowing that she has generations of clearances behind her, than just her parents. Other people are comfortable not knowing.


I am not advocating for people to purchase from byb. I am just saying that *I* did everything right the first time and it bit *me* in the butt. I have had mutts all my life before I was even interested in purebreds and they never ever had a health problem and lived till they were 15 & 16. And boy you should have seen the food they ate:uhoh:

From *my experience* I am not convinced that it is just being lucky or unlucky. Like someone else said it is not all black and white. That is why I would be interested in hearing from others about their health problems and money spent. How many people on the health boards that are having problems are willing to admit they are from reputable breeders. I would be interested to know this. That's all


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> Ok, this is seriously getting juvenile. I don't know, you should know how your odds are in retiring in Mexico, and if it doesn't happen, then.. omg what am I doing?


It was a joke.....lighten up:


----------



## Max's Dad

> YES IT IS REALLY LUCK TO GET A HEALTHY PUPPY FROM A BYB.
> 
> To suggest that it is an OK place to get a dog because they live in the house and are well taken care of is kind of ignorant.
> 
> I have to apologize, but I am very passionate about this breed and to suggest that anything less than a breeder who does all clearances is an alright place to get a puppy really upsets me.
Click to expand...

Wow, did not realize I was ignorant. I guess I wasted all that money on my JD. 

Are we not talking about pets here? We wanted a pet. Not a show dog. What is so wrong, or "ignorant" about meeting the parents, aunts and uncles, to get an idea of what your prospective dog will be like?

I recently met a woman at obedience class with a GR about two years old. Beautiful dog from a reputable breeder. She paid over $2K and received a guarantee. Her dog has had surgeries on both elbows at a vet clinic about 100 miles from here. Her dog limps the day after obedience class. The breeder refunded her money, but only after she has over $5K invested in vet bills.

My point is, there is "luck" involved whether you get your dog from a BYB, or a professional breeder. 

And by the way, I am also passionate about the breed. We have had three Goldens spanning 25 years. Goldens are wonderful pets, and I accept your apology.


----------



## akgolden

Max's Dad said:


> To suggest that it is an OK place to get a dog because they live in the house and are well taken care of is kind of ignorant.
> 
> I have to apologize, but I am very passionate about this breed and to suggest that anything less than a breeder who does all clearances is an alright place to get a puppy really upsets me.
> 
> Wow, did not realize I was ignorant. I guess I wasted all that money on my JD.
> 
> *Are we not talking about pets here? We wanted a pet. Not a show dog*. What is so wrong, or "ignorant" about meeting the parents, aunts and uncles, to get an idea of what your prospective dog will be like?
> 
> I recently met a woman at obedience class with a GR about two years old. Beautiful dog from a reputable breeder. She paid over $2K and received a guarantee. Her dog has had surgeries on both elbows at a vet clinic about 100 miles from here. Her dog limps the day after obedience class. The breeder refunded her money, but only after she has over $5K invested in vet bills.
> 
> My point is, there is "luck" involved whether you get your dog from a BYB, or a professional breeder.
> 
> And by the way, I am also passionate about the breed. We have had three Goldens spanning 25 years. Goldens are wonderful pets, and I accept your apology.


This. Have had 4 goldens since I was born, all living great, healthy lives. Two into the teens when they passed, one that is 11-12 now and mine that is a little over 1 year old. All gotten from what appears to be considered and looked down upon as a "BYB" even if they were from personal friends and family. 

All of our goldens have made excellent pets, have lived healthy and excellent lives.



I think if you are showing dogs and competing then yes spending the 1500 or more for the dog is realistic but for 99% of this board that just enjoy the breed and their company and love that can only come from a Golden as a pet "BYB" is perfectly fine. Obviously do a little research, meet the parents if you can, ask about history but for an everyday pet I don't see the issue.


----------



## mooselips

Who would want to retire in Mexico, when there's Hawaii?


----------



## akgolden

mooselips said:


> Who would want to retire in Mexico, when there's Hawaii?


Never been to Hawaii but been to Mexico countless times...meh




Belize is where it's at...


----------



## Doolin

Well a JD has nothing to do with genetics and populations, so if you wanted an education in this area a JD is definitely the wrong degree to study for 

FYI most dogs sold from reputable breeder are sold as pets. And reputable does not mean Show, just an educational tip..... And the ignorant is believing that a dog that is well taken care of means that it is healthy.....


----------



## Max's Dad

mooselips said:


> When I started looking for a Golden last November, I knew I wanted a dog that had a good health history, therefore I did not look at the pups that were listed in the paper, I contacted breeders.
> 
> I looked at their dogs health histories and clearances.
> 
> My dogs are part of my family, I want the best possible addition to our family, therefore, I contacted a breeder.
> 
> I've had a previous English Setter that I bought without knowing the exact history of the dog, and I believe she came from a puppy mill, or a BYB.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dog had multiple mental issues.
> 
> 
> 
> One issue, although minor is, she hated the water. I called the breeder, asked her any idea why? She said, well heck, when they bark in the kennel I spray them with the hose.
> 
> I could go on and on...although that dog sure had a good life here for 13 years......
> 
> I was flabbergasted.
Click to expand...

Reminds me of our second Golden, Chewy. She never had a sick vet visit in over 14 years. But, she was neurotic. The trucks on trash day scared her to death. She would hide behind the toilet most of the day. Hated loud diesel trucks. Many things scared her. Turned out, she was a "puppy mill" dog. However, we loved her and she was a great, healthy dog. We continue to miss her.


----------



## Kmullen

This is just mind blowing by how many members on here would just go buy from a BYB.... I am truly saddened.


----------



## Max's Dad

Doolin said:


> Well a JD has nothing to do with genetics and populations, so if you wanted an education in this area a JD is definitely the wrong degree to study for
> 
> FYI most dogs sold from reputable breeder are sold as pets. And reputable does not mean Show, just an educational tip..... And the ignorant is believing that a dog that is well taken care of means that it is healthy.....


Ok, my thought was that we saw the parents and relatives, and they were not only well taken care of, but appeared healthy. 

My final post in this thread . . .


----------



## akgolden

kfayard said:


> This is just mind blowing by how many members on here would just go buy from a BYB.... I am truly saddened.


I'm not saddened at all. I have had great childhood and current memories growing up with all the goldens in my life. 

No regrets at all. 

They were all gotten from personal friends or family friends. Are they a professional breeder??? no. Were they well taken care of and amazing dogs their entire and current life? You bet


----------



## Doolin

What is the old saying..... Things aren't always what they appear


----------



## akgolden

Doolin said:


> What is the old saying..... Things aren't always what they appear


So the goldens I grew up with and have now are not healthy or as good as a $1500 dollar dog from what you consider a reputable breeder? ? 

I beg to disagree


----------



## Kmullen

akgolden said:


> I'm not saddened at all. I have had great childhood and current memories growing up with all the goldens in my life.
> 
> No regrets at all.
> 
> They were all gotten from personal friends or family friends. Are they a professional breeder??? no. Were they well taken care of and amazing dogs their entire and current life? You bet


 
I am no saddened that they found a home and you took care of them. I am saddened by the "I do not care where my golden comes from" attitude.

Basically, sounding like members would put $300 to $400 in a persons pocket who is not in it for the betterment of the breed. Truly disappointing. :no:


----------



## Wagners Mom2

I didn't read through all of the comments, so please forgive me if I'm repeating this. But perhaps fostering would be a good thing for you? You'd get to play with a dog--love it--care for it--and you could at the same time save up for a puppy from a reputable breeder...if you didn't fall in love with your foster and adopt him/her first!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

mooselips said:


> Who would want to retire in Mexico, when there's Hawaii?


Obviously you have never been to Cozumel? Not to mention the price


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

akgolden said:


> Never been to Hawaii but been to Mexico countless times...meh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Belize is where it's at...


Been there twice and it is awesome. However my heart is in Mexico


----------



## Kmullen

It is not about your dog being better than a reputable breeders dog!!! Or vice versa

It is about breeders that are only breeding to make money and are not trying in some small way to take these Horrible statistics away from goldens!!!!!!!!!!

You might have had healthy BYB dogs....I know there are way more people who have had problems with BYB dogs. 

It is just a shame that most of you are belittling what Reputable breeders do for the breed. They put their heart and soul into this breed....


----------



## akgolden

kfayard said:


> I am no saddened that they found a home and you took care of them. I am saddened by the "I do not care where my golden comes from" attitude.
> 
> Basically, sounding like members would put $300 to $400 in a persons pocket who is not in it for the betterment of the breed. Truly disappointing. :no:


Sorry to have disappointed you...well not really but......

Just cause I got my dog from family friends that breed two pure breeds doesn't make them any less of a healthy dog. I do care where my golden came from. I got them from people I know, trust and know how well their goldens are taken care of. All shots, vet visits, checkups were on time and excellent reports. Why is it that at a certain price they will be excellent dogs and at another price they are going to be littered with problems. 




Still not seeing how my choice was a bad one and disappointing....


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Doolin said:


> Well a JD has nothing to do with genetics and populations, so if you wanted an education in this area a JD is definitely the wrong degree to study for
> 
> *FYI most dogs sold from reputable breeder are sold as pets. And reputable does not mean Show, just an educational tip.....* And the ignorant is believing that a dog that is well taken care of means that it is healthy.....


Thanks for the educational tip, however I knew this when I bought my first golden. So I must of had some edumacation


----------



## Doolin

akgolden said:


> So the goldens I grew up with and have now are not healthy or as good as a $1500 dollar dog from what you consider a reputable breeder? ?
> 
> I beg to disagree


My reference was to the quote "I saw the parents and they appeared to be healthy" I have seen many dogs with Grade 2 and 3 heart murmurs that appeared to be healthy.... doesn't mean they are.

At no point did I state that a more expensive puppy means it is a better puppy. What is better is that you are supporting the betterment of the breed, not someone trying to make a buck off a litter. 

Do you not see the benefit of getting a puppy from a reputable breeder? One with a history of health clearances and knowledge of the temperament of the parents, grandparents and on and on??? I just can't understand how this is not Obvious?


----------



## akgolden

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Obviously you have never been to Cozumel? Not to mention the price


Price is nothing like it use to be. There are still deals to be had but it's a tourist trap in most places now.


Wyatt's mommy said:


> Been there twice and it is awesome. However my heart is in Mexico


Been to Puerto Vallarta, Cabo, Nuava Vallarta, Buceierias, and everywhere in between. I always have fun there but it was nothing compared to Placencia Belize. I fell in love with that place. The food, people and life style is just perfect


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Doolin said:


> What is the old saying..... Things aren't always what they appear


Exactly! My whole point.


----------



## Doolin

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Exactly! My whole point.


?????????????


----------



## Kmullen

akgolden said:


> Sorry to have disappointed you...well not really but......
> 
> Just cause I got my dog from family friends that breed two pure breeds doesn't make them any less of a healthy dog. I do care where my golden came from. I got them from people I know, trust and know how well their goldens are taken care of. All shots, vet visits, checkups were on time and excellent reports. Why is it that at a certain price they will be excellent dogs and at another price they are going to be littered with problems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still not seeing how my choice was a bad one and disappointing....


 
First off who said ANYTHING about price?? Yes, you got from a Family friend who is a BYB (you knew which house the dog came from). 

I am not saying that you do not have a healthy dog....not all BYB dogs have problems. 

And if I were to bet.....there are way more dogs that are healthier coming from reputable breeders. I know both ways!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

akgolden said:


> Price is nothing like it use to be. There are still deals to be had but it's a tourist trap in most places now.
> 
> Been to Puerto Vallarta, Cabo, Nuava Vallarta, Buceierias, and everywhere in between. I always have fun there but it was nothing compared to Placencia Belize. I fell in love with that place. The food, people and life style is just perfect


We currently own a condo on the Marina in Cabo. Yes it is touristy but we love the action that goes along with it. We have been all over Mexico and the Caribbean and always come back to Mexico because of the people. But I agree with Belize the people are just as welcoming as Mexico. Not to mention cheap beer and great food. Best chicken and rice dinner I had was in Belize.


----------



## akgolden

Doolin said:


> My reference was to the quote "I saw the parents and they appeared to be healthy" I have seen many dogs with Grade 2 and 3 heart murmurs that appeared to be healthy.... doesn't mean they are.
> 
> At no point did I state that a more expensive puppy means it is a better puppy. What is better is that you are supporting the betterment of the breed, not someone trying to make a buck off a litter.
> 
> Do you not see the benefit of getting a puppy from a reputable breeder? One with a history of health clearances and knowledge of the temperament of the parents, grandparents and on and on??? I just can't understand how this is not Obvious?


We had personal friends that got their dogs together, both papered pure breeds, breed them and sold the puppys. I don't see the problem. I saw both the parents and knew the history on them, knew the pups were taken care of and all the vet checks and shots were taken care of. 

Were our friends "professionals"??? No Were they able to get two excellent dogs to breed, yup. And they produced healthy excellent dogs that live excellent long trouble free life's



It's not like I just went and picked up a golden out of the back of a pickup bed at the local grocery mart... I put some thought into my decision.


----------



## Doolin

akgolden said:


> We had personal friends that got their dogs together, both papered pure breeds, breed them and sold the puppys. I don't see the problem. I saw both the parents and knew the history on them, knew the pups were taken care of and all the vet checks and shots were taken care of.
> 
> Were our friends "professionals"??? No Were they able to get two excellent dogs to breed, yup. And they produced healthy excellent dogs that live excellent long trouble free life's
> 
> 
> 
> It's not like I just went and picked up a golden out of the back of a pickup bed at the local grocery mart... I put some thought into my decision.



What type of history did you know on them? If they didn't have any clearances done there is no way to know what is lurking!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Doolin said:


> ?????????????


Things aren't always as they appear.


----------



## akgolden

kfayard said:


> First off who said ANYTHING about price?? Yes, you got from a Family friend who is a BYB (you knew which house the dog came from).
> 
> I am not saying that you do not have a healthy dog....not all BYB dogs have problems.
> 
> *And if I were to bet.....there are way more dogs that are healthier coming from reputable breeders*. I know both ways!


To tired at work to go quote all the post referencing price and getting what you pay for and comments about supporting back yard breeders by paying $3-400.

Any way of proving what I bolded??


Click on the active topics on the top of the forum. Usually on average half the post are from people that are having issues with their dogs, many of them senior members here that came from "reputable breeders"


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> It is not about your dog being better than a reputable breeders dog!!! Or vice versa
> 
> It is about breeders that are only breeding to make money and are not trying in some small way to take these Horrible statistics away from goldens!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You might have had healthy BYB dogs....I know there are way more people who have had problems with BYB dogs.
> 
> It is just a shame that most of you are belittling what Reputable breeders do for the breed. They put their heart and soul into this breed....


Who is belittling reputable breeders? Not me.


----------



## Kmullen

akgolden said:


> We had personal friends that got their dogs together, both papered pure breeds, breed them and sold the puppys. I don't see the problem. I saw both the parents and knew the history on them, knew the pups were taken care of and all the vet checks and shots were taken care of.
> 
> Were our friends "professionals"??? No Were they able to get two excellent dogs to breed, yup. And they produced healthy excellent dogs that live excellent long trouble free life's
> 
> 
> 
> It's not like I just went and picked up a golden out of the back of a pickup bed at the local grocery mart... I put some thought into my decision.


 
What makes them excellent to breed? How old is your dog now?


----------



## Kmullen

akgolden said:


> To tired at work to go quote all the post referencing price and getting what you pay for and comments about supporting back yard breeders by paying $3-400.
> 
> Any way of proving what I bolded??
> 
> 
> Click on the active topics on the top of the forum. Usually on average half the post are from people that are having issues with their dogs, many of them senior members here that came from "reputable breeders"


It was not in reference to the money! It was referencing how much they are because they were not doing clearances!!! If someone did all clearances for $500...by all means. But, it is not just the dogs clearances it is the parents, grandparents, the great grandparents....


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

akgolden said:


> To tired at work to go quote all the post referencing price and getting what you pay for and comments about supporting back yard breeders by paying $3-400.
> 
> Any way of proving what I bolded??
> 
> 
> *Click on the active topics on the top of the forum. Usually on average half the post are from people that are having issues with their dogs, many of them senior members here that came from "reputable breeders*"


This is all I'm interested in.


----------



## akgolden

kfayard said:


> What makes them excellent to breed? How old is your dog now?


My golden is 1 1/2, parents is 11?? I think. The ones before them lived to 14 (two sisters).


----------



## Kmullen

I am interested in this too???!!!!! How do you know they come from Reputable breeders??? Do you want me to search for reputable breeders with problems? Or BYB with Problems??

So, I am assuming there is no use in clearances for the breed!


----------



## Vhuynh2

Max's Dad said:


> Wow, did not realize I was ignorant. I guess I wasted all that money on my JD.
> 
> Are we not talking about pets here? We wanted a pet. Not a show dog. What is so wrong, or "ignorant" about meeting the parents, aunts and uncles, to get an idea of what your prospective dog will be like?
> 
> I recently met a woman at obedience class with a GR about two years old. Beautiful dog from a reputable breeder. She paid over $2K and received a guarantee. Her dog has had surgeries on both elbows at a vet clinic about 100 miles from here. Her dog limps the day after obedience class. The breeder refunded her money, but only after she has over $5K invested in vet bills.
> 
> My point is, there is "luck" involved whether you get your dog from a BYB, or a professional breeder.
> 
> And by the way, I am also passionate about the breed. We have had three Goldens spanning 25 years. Goldens are wonderful pets, and I accept your apology.


I'd be really concerned about hip and elbow clearances if my golden ended up to be 150 lbs and 27 inches. Not only is that highly out of standard, the extra height and weight could only put more stress on their joints.


----------



## Deb_Bayne

I really hope this bashing of byb isn't from my post stating that I got Bayne from a Hobby Breeder who has been breeding specifically Goldens for 8 years. I only stated that some people lump backyard breeders with hobby breeders, those who do it for the love of the breed and not for the money in their pocket. I got my cats the same way, for half the price than from someone who wanted to charge buckets just because they were pure breds.


----------



## Kmullen

Deb_Bayne said:


> I really hope this bashing of byb isn't from my post stating that I got Bayne from a Hobby Breeder who has been breeding specifically Goldens for 8 years. I only stated that some people lump backyard breeders with hobby breeders, those who do it for the love of the breed and not for the money in their pocket. I got my cats the same way, for half the price than from someone who wanted to charge buckets just because they were pure breds.


No one is bashing BYB....stating the obvious that they do not do clearances. I can not see anybody breeding with out clearances and doing it for the love?? To me, that just does not make sense.


----------



## Megora

I don't know if the OP is still reading this... but I think it would be best for the dog that they thoroughly think this through beyond what they want right now. Even having money saved up. 

I know people with emotional and mental issues - and the treatment and care is always expensive and life is always complicated and difficult for these people and their families. 

I had a coworker who had a bipolar issue. This man was the sweetest, nicest, all-together type of family man who unfortunately would sink into depression every once in a while. This man had a loving family and kids and friends and they all helped and were his support through those difficult times. I can't imagine somebody like that living alone and raising a puppy. And handling college at the same time? 

This person already had to surrender a dog only a year ago. To me this is too short a time to go out and get a _puppy. _

Please, if you are still reading - please concentrate on getting through college first and then get a good job or a settled life. And then look into a puppy. Don't rush. 

As far as byb's.... :yuck:


----------



## Kmullen

Vhuynh2 said:


> I'd be really concerned about hip and elbow clearances if my golden ended up to be 150 lbs and 27 inches. Not only is that highly out of standard, the extra height and weight could only put more stress on their joints.


 
It makes me think if people know what "reputable breeders" are?
I mean my first golden, the original owner paid $2,000 for him. Would I consider them reputable??? Heck NO!!!!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> It makes me think if people know what "reputable breeders" are?
> I mean my first golden, the original owner paid $2,000 for him. Would I consider them reputable??? Heck NO!!!!


If you are referring to me as "people" you can be rest assured I know the difference.


----------



## Kmullen

Wyatt's mommy said:


> If you are referring to me as "people" you can be rest assured I know the difference.


 
Nope, just saying that in general.


----------



## Vhuynh2

kfayard said:


> It makes me think if people know what "reputable breeders" are?
> I mean my first golden, the original owner paid $2,000 for him. Would I consider them reputable??? Heck NO!!!!


I was talking to a BYB before I did my research and turned the other way. Her reasons for not getting the clearances were that her dogs seemed healthy and that she had bought the sire for $3,000. Not sure how the purchase price of the sire equals health.

I don't think some people know what a reputable breeder is.. Most people don't go to reputable breeders for a show dog.. they go to one in hopes for a healthy dog, one who fits the golden retriever standard physically and temperamentally, and to support someone who wants to better the breed.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> Nope, just saying that in general.


I would give you the name of my breeder who I used for Cody, but she is a well known breeder here in So Cal and I wouldn't do anything to hurt her or her beautiful bred dogs. She understands how I feel though.


----------



## Jamm

Oh my goodness. I am just returning now to see this thread blown up... Within the last 24 hours i've witnessed two threads where members are saying 'hey, i have a dog from a farmer/kijiji/craigstlist, etc...hes fine! you should go get one too'... Really?! I know so many members and have friends who were un-knowledgable and gone to byb's and as soon as they KNOW what to look for in a proper breeder... they start a search for their future dog! It is almost idiocy to know what good breeders do.. and then just turn around and go to the BYB. Its not 'rescuing' or 'adopting'... its feeding to byb's. Money has nothing to do with it either. Save up. Don't just go the cheap way and 'risk' things later down the line. Im actually shocked at the responses ive seen in the last 24 hours.


----------



## Jamm

kfayard said:


> Okay now I have to chime in! :no:
> 
> 
> 
> I am the "middle class." I purchased my golden after my 1st year old of college and had to save every penny to do so. Did I complain about how much? Did I go to a BYB because I wanted a puppy now...no.
> 
> A BYB is not the same as a hobby breeder. A BYB may not mean that it is a puppy mill. But, even if someone has one litter with no clearances....they are still a BYB. How can someone say "well they care about their dogs" if they most likely do not know what is behind the dog or even do proper clearances.
> 
> I can not sit here and let people deminimize reputable breeders. They do extensive testing to make sure their lines are better than the previous. Will there be some unhealthy ones? Yes! But, they are trying to eliminate the problem.
> 
> I would sooooo much rather go to someone who is FIGHTING for the breed, NOT AGAINST it.
> 
> Yes, my first golden died under the age of 2 from SAS and he did have HD to go along with that. I consider the breeder an un-reputable breeder. Some of you had an issue with a reputable one....but there is no way I would go to a BYB because I had a health issue with my dog.
> 
> I would love to call a local ad in the paper that is selling goldens for $400 and ask them if they know what "SAS" or "PU" was? Most likely they do not know. That is such an injustice to the breed!
> 
> If they put no money into the parents. Just say they have 8 puppies and they sold for $400...do the math. That is $3200 in their pocket. Couldn't they use that to do testing?? Where as reputable breeders take that money and put it back into their own dogs.
> 
> And if people keep turning to BYB, how can we help this breed. You do not have to want a show golden, but you should want a healthy one.
> 
> If someone could once pay for a $500 golden, what is another 1,000 or less to go to a reputable breeder that really does love the BREED not just THEIR DOG!!
> 
> Just my two cents!!



:appl: :appl: :appl:


----------



## Vhuynh2

Jamm said:


> Oh my goodness. I am just returning now to see this thread blown up... Within the last 24 hours i've witnessed two threads where members are saying 'hey, i have a dog from a farmer/kijiji/craigstlist, etc...hes fine! you should go get one too'... *Really?! I know so many members and have friends who were un-knowledgable and gone to byb's and as soon as they KNOW what to look for in a proper breeder.*.. they start a search for their future dog! It is almost idiocy to know what good breeders do.. and then just turn around and go to the BYB. Its not 'rescuing' or 'adopting'... its feeding to byb's. Money has nothing to do with it either. Save up. Don't just go the cheap way and 'risk' things later down the line. *Im actually shocked at the responses ive seen in the last 24 hours*.


Tell me about it.. I can't believe it either.

I was inquiring about a puppy from a BYB, then I did the research, and told her I simply could not go through with it. I started my search over.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Jamm said:


> Oh my goodness. I am just returning now to see this thread blown up... Within the last 24 hours *i've witnessed two threads where members are saying 'hey, i have a dog from a farmer/kijiji/craigstlist, etc...hes fine! you should go get one too'...* Really?! I know so many members and have friends who were un-knowledgable and gone to byb's and as soon as they KNOW what to look for in a proper breeder... they start a search for their future dog! It is almost idiocy to know what good breeders do.. and then just turn around and go to the BYB. Its not 'rescuing' or 'adopting'... its feeding to byb's. Money has nothing to do with it either. Save up. Don't just go the cheap way and 'risk' things later down the line. Im actually shocked at the responses ive seen in the last 24 hours.


Uh oh.....perhaps you got your threads mixed up? There is nobody on this thread that even came close to saying this. I'm shocked that people are not reading what I and others are actually posting.......


----------



## Jamm

I never said this thread... I also am not quoting exactly what members are saying... but this whole thread is just... wow.


----------



## Loisiana

I don't see how anyone breeding puppies way over standard size can love the breed. Maybe their idea of the breed, but not the way the breed is meant to be developed. Breeding a dog to be oversized is not only taking away part of what a " golden retriever" is, it is also not good for health.


----------



## nixietink

Jamm said:


> I never said this thread... I also am not quoting exactly what members are saying... but this whole thread is just... wow.


I agree. I am so sad by the route GRF has taken lately, especially defending not buying from reputable breeders. Never thought I would see the day.


----------



## MercyMom

ckshin05 said:


> Currently I was in your situation Sashiro, but the fact is I started to think. It's a puppy mill, no way is it that cheap. Also if they are not cleared I am going to pay more then the difference and the heartache is going to be much worse. I have wanted a Golden Retriever since I was a kid. That was 18 years ago, and I did research to purchase one 4 years ago. I waited till it was the right time and so far it is. I have the funds for the puppy, vet, toys, food, crate, and back up money for emergancies.


I waited my whole life for a Golden too.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Jamm said:


> I never said this thread... I also am not quoting exactly what members are saying... but this whole thread is just... wow.


Why wow? Because some people here chose to buy from other sources and actually posted it here. Not one of us are telling anyone here to do the same. Or did I miss something?



nixietink said:


> I agree. I am so sad by the route GRF has taken lately, especially defending not buying from reputable breeders. Never thought I would see the day.


GRF is doing what? Seriously? *scratches head*


----------



## SheetsSM

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I would give you the name of my breeder who I used for Cody, but she is a well known breeder here in So Cal and I wouldn't do anything to hurt her or her beautiful bred dogs. She understands how I feel though.


I've seen where you've stated numerous times that your pup was from a reputable breeder, but I question whether your definition of reputable is the same one held by the GRCA. Great breeders don't hide the fact that a pup they produced had HD/ED...and aren't going to be hurt by facts. Look at Pointgold when the whole PU issue came up--had she not come forward, I wouldn't have realized just how important CERFs are for all goldens not just those being bred. I just don't get the secrecy.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

SheetsSM said:


> I've seen where you've stated numerous times that your pup was from a reputable breeder, but I question whether your definition of reputable is the same one held by the GRCA. Great breeders don't hide the fact that a pup they produced had HD/ED...and aren't going to be hurt by facts. Look at Pointgold when the whole PU issue came up--had she not come forward, I wouldn't have realized just how important CERFs are for all goldens not just those being bred. I just don't get the secrecy.


How many great breeders have had the problem with HD/ED? Just curious. See that is what I'm interested in. Although that was not one of Cody's problems, I feel obligated to not post her name on these boards. She has been recommended a couple times here though. I know how people react when they don't have all the facts......lol take some of these threads for instance. LOL!


----------



## Kmullen

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Why wow? Because some people here chose to buy from other sources and actually posted it here. Not one of us are telling anyone here to do the same. Or did I miss something?
> 
> 
> 
> GRF is doing what? Seriously? *scratches head*



Well...I will say, It has taken a turn for the worse. Imho


----------



## MercyMom

Sashiro said:


> I really don't think this is a puppy mill. I will go see the parents and where they're kept to be sure.
> I don't think I can make myself pay $1,500 for a dog. That just seems like way too much. I do have some money set aside for vet bills, vaccinations, etc and I have already purchased a crate, chews, leash, etc etc, so that is taken care of.
> 
> Getting the dog spayed/neutered won't be a problem as there is a clinic here that does it for $35 for college students.
> 
> I actually got some messages from people saying that backyard breeders weren't always a bad thing. Some really do care for their animals and do get them checked by a vet. I still think I'm going to get one.
> 
> To those worried about me having to give the dog up due to my "health" issues...well... I wasn't entirely truthful. It was mental health issues. I have Bipolar Disorder (bipolar 1) and was being frequently hospitalized because of it. I am stable now, though constantly lonely and depressed. My case manager, therapist, and I were all hopeful that a dog would help me. I don't just want one, I _need_ one. I know that sounds stupid but...it's true.


I can understand where you are coming from dear. I have bi-polar too. I agree that dogs do provide health benefits and can be particularly helpful to someone with your condition. I am so sorry you actually had to give away your golden when the dog's companionship would have been particularly comforting. I also used to be like you wanting a cheap golden. When I was 20 years old, I bought a $150 mixed breed puppy because I could not afford $300 for a golden. It is just as well that I did not get a $300 golden. I lucked out with my mixed breed not having major health issues. I have learned so much over the years about reputably bred goldens. I know you cannot imagine paying $1500 for a golden. I can see where you are coming from. It is so much better for you in the long run though if you can afford a high quality $1500-$2000 golden because it will save you vet bills in the end. I know that you are looking for a comforting companion. No doubt that a $300 dog would be a loving companion for you, but there would also be problems. You do get what you pay for. I needed a golden retriever for comfort and dealing with my issues as well. I also had to wait years and years for one. I decided for me that getting a high quality bred golden for $1000 plus would give me the best chance of having a healthy companion who would comfort me for a long time with minimized chances for heartache. The truth is, I did not want to get golden from a show dog breeder either before. But I have learned that the best bred highest quality goldens come from such folks, and you are much more likely to get a companion and a comfort dog who will also stay healthy so that they can help you better too.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

kfayard said:


> Well...I will say, It has taken a turn for the worse. Imho


How so? I have nothing against reputable breeders. Infact I can highly recommend 2 here in So Cal. And I do often.


----------



## Oaklys Dad

Play NICE people!!! This is GRF and we speak nicely to people. This thread is within an inch of being closed!


----------



## Megora

Wyatt's mommy said:


> How many great breeders have had the problem with HD/ED? Just curious. See that is what I'm interested in.


You know.... I've had a dog with ED. He lived 12 years and was completely healthy in every other way. Except for his last year where he developed various problems. He had a respiratory infection which our regular vet panicked about and sent us to a heart specialist. The heart specialist correctly diagnosed him and gave us antibiotics to treat the infection... and she was all praise about how strong and healthy his heart was at his age. 

The was a golden purchased from a very good breeder (as she was then). 

His ED was such that he did not need surgery and was treated with supplements and pain meds as needed through his entire life. 

One note here, we purchased him before GRCA added elbows as one of the recommended clearances. Good breeders back then were not having the elbows done. They do now though. 

As a dog owner looking into buying a puppy - you should be concerned about hearts, eyes, and overall health behind the dog. I think it's a bit silly for somebody to brag about how HEALTHY and sound the parents are when they are only 2 years old. That why you need to have the history behind the dogs, you need to know what you are doing, and you need to be thoroughly doing what you can to produce healthy and sound dogs. And dogs who look like golden retrievers. 

Our Charmy was a byb... he was diagnosed with cataracts before he was a year old. And of course everyone has heard my sob story about what we went through with him. I'm sure that was the worst case scenario, but going with a byb you are still running a risk of buying a puppy who has kidney defects, eye defects, heart defects, and most importantly temperament defects.


----------



## CarolinaCasey

I am aghast at what is being recommended to the OP. We can disagree but please do not be rude. 

What you want is a healthy puppy that will grow into a healthy adult that is a golden in every sense of the word. Am I right?

Having that quintessential golden means something. Breeding two "goldens" that have AKC paperwork isn't enough to get you that special golden. 

This forum is a wealth of information. There are all of the right tools and members willing to help anyone find a healthy puppy. To recommend that people "take a chance/gamble" sickens me. 

The BYB's are the ones that should not have taken the gamble. They are playing with lives. You short-change no one but that innocent puppy when you breed dogs without the proper clearances. "Sorry sweet innocent puppy, you might drop dead at 2 years old from SAS because I didn't care enough to learn more about the health issues in this breed. Oops. Better luck, never!" That sounds terrible, but that is what these BYB's are doing. They are playing with fire. Someday, they are going to get burnt. Just because your dog from a BYB didn't have issues doesn't mean it won't or that it's littermates, etc didn't. Just because you met one dog from a reputable source doesn't make life a big crapshoot. These wonderful hobby breeders eat, sleep, and live goldens. They can spout off the last 25 dogs in any given dog in their breeding program's pedigree. They can document health clearances and longevity. They follow up with dogs over their lifetime. They CARE about the breed's future and are already planning on how to improve it. 

I also don't understand the mentality that the BYB's supply the "pet quality" market. In a conformation breeder's litter, there are 1-2 show prospects. Where do you think the rest of a litter goes?? Pet homes. 

It's about supporting the breeders that should be breeding-- the ones that care about the breed and it's future. It is about stopping the BYB's. Don't roll the dice.


----------



## Max's Dad

Vhuynh2 said:


> I'd be really concerned about hip and elbow clearances if my golden ended up to be 150 lbs and 27 inches. Not only is that highly out of standard, the extra height and weight could only put more stress on their joints.


Yes, we have concerns about Max's joints and hips because of his size. We knew he would be a big dog because his father was tall. Also, concerned about his lifespan because large dogs generally live shorter lives. But, Max is a great dog and so far, has been healthy. 

By the way, he is actually closer to 30 inches at the shoulders. Moreover, his weight and body are in proportion. He is athletic and a great swimmer.

Further, should we have not taken Max because he might be too big. Should he have been put down because he does not meet the "standard." A standard that is arbitrary. What is your point? The puppy was here. He is a sweet, loving being. We gave gave him a nice home. No matter where you get your puppy, nothing is for sure. 

I have only been involved with the Golden forum for a short time. Most of it is fun. But the negativity in this particular thread is mind boggling. Some dogs come from so-called reputable breeders, some from backyard breeders, some puppy mill, and some rescue. I do not see things changing. The person who started this thread was only looking for some advice because he cannot afford an expensive dog. But he wants a Golden. I doubt that after reading all these pages, he will have found a definitive answer to his question.

Obviously, everyone on this forum loves Golden Retrievers. I am going to try to focus on the more fun and positive aspects of the forum from now on.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Megora said:


> You know.... I've had a dog with ED. He lived 12 years and was completely healthy in every other way. Except for his last year where he developed various problems. He had a respiratory infection which our regular vet panicked about and sent us to a heart specialist. The heart specialist correctly diagnosed him and gave us antibiotics to treat the infection... and she was all praise about how strong and healthy his heart was at his age.
> 
> The was a golden purchased from a very good breeder (as she was then).
> 
> His ED was such that he did not need surgery and was treated with supplements and pain meds as needed through his entire life.
> 
> One note here, we purchased him before GRCA added ED as one of the recommended clearances. Good breeders back then were not having the elbows done. They do now though.
> 
> As a dog owner looking into buying a puppy - you should be concerned about hearts, eyes, and overall health behind the dog. I think it's a bit silly for somebody to brag about how HEALTHY and sound the parents are when they are only 2 years old. That why you need to have the history behind the dogs, you need to know what you are doing, and you need to be thoroughly doing what you can to produce healthy and sound dogs. And dogs who look like golden retrievers.
> 
> Our Charmy was a byb... he was diagnosed with cataracts before he was a year old. And of course everyone has heard my sob story about what we went through with him. I'm sure that was the worst case scenario, but going with a byb you are still running a risk of buying a puppy who has kidney defects, eye defects, heart defects, and most importantly temperament defects.


I never bragged about either of my dogs. However I do personally understand the ordeal with cataracts. My Cody developed them in both eyes and went completely blind in a matter of 2 weeks. We did chose to have the surgery and were lucky to get his sight back. I understand the risks regardless of who I purchase from and am completely happy of _my choice_. Thanks for the info on your fur babies medical problems.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Max's Dad said:


> Yes, we have concerns about Max's joints and hips because of his size. We knew he would be a big dog because his father was tall. Also, concerned about his lifespan because large dogs generally live shorter lives. But, Max is a great dog and so far, has been healthy.
> 
> By the way, he is actually closer to 30 inches at the shoulders. Moreover, his weight and body are in proportion. He is athletic and a great swimmer.
> 
> Further, should we have not taken Max because he might be too big. Should he have been put down because he does not meet the "standard." A standard that is arbitrary. What is your point? The puppy was here. He is a sweet, loving being. We gave gave him a nice home. No matter where you get your puppy, nothing is for sure.
> 
> I have only been involved with the Golden forum for a short time. Most of it is fun. But the negativity in this particular thread is mind boggling. Some dogs come from so-called reputable breeders, some from backyard breeders, some puppy mill, and some rescue. I do not see things changing. The person who started this thread was only looking for some advice because he cannot afford an expensive dog. But he wants a Golden. I doubt that after reading all these pages, he will have found a definitive answer to his question.
> 
> Obviously, everyone on this forum loves Golden Retrievers. I am going to try to focus on the more fun and positive aspects of the forum from now on.


No, he should not have been put down. However, the father should not have been allowed to sire a litter in the first place.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

CarolinaCasey said:


> *I am aghast at what is being recommended to the OP*. We can disagree but please do not be rude.
> 
> What you want is a healthy puppy that will grow into a healthy adult that is a golden in every sense of the word. Am I right?
> 
> Having that quintessential golden means something. Breeding two "goldens" that have AKC paperwork isn't enough to get you that special golden.
> 
> This forum is a wealth of information. There are all of the right tools and members willing to help anyone find a healthy puppy. To recommend that people "take a chance/gamble" sickens me.
> 
> The BYB's are the ones that should not have taken the gamble. They are playing with lives. You short-change no one but that innocent puppy when you breed dogs without the proper clearances. "Sorry sweet innocent puppy, you might drop dead at 2 years old from SAS because I didn't care enough to learn more about the health issues in this breed. Oops. Better luck, never!" That sounds terrible, but that is what these BYB's are doing. They are playing with fire. Someday, they are going to get burnt. Just because your dog from a BYB didn't have issues doesn't mean it won't or that it's littermates, etc didn't. Just because you met one dog from a reputable source doesn't make life a big crapshoot. These wonderful hobby breeders eat, sleep, and live goldens. They can spout off the last 25 dogs in any given dog in their breeding program's pedigree. They can document health clearances and longevity. They follow up with dogs over their lifetime. They CARE about the breed's future and are already planning on how to improve it.
> 
> I also don't understand the mentality that the BYB's supply the "pet quality" market. In a conformation breeder's litter, there are 1-2 show prospects. Where do you think the rest of a litter goes?? Pet homes.
> 
> It's about supporting the breeders that should be breeding-- the ones that care about the breed and it's future. It is about stopping the BYB's. Don't roll the dice.


Nobody recommended a byb to the op. Unless I missed something? Some of us are just stating what we did. Is stating our experiences against the rules of this board?


----------



## Max's Dad

Vhuynh2 said:


> I'd be really concerned about hip and elbow clearances if my golden ended up to be 150 lbs and 27 inches. Not only is that highly out of standard, the extra height and weight could only put more stress on their joints.





Oaklys Dad said:


> Play NICE people!!! This is GRF and we speak nicely to people. This thread is within an inch of being closed!


Good idea.


----------



## Megora

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I never bragged about either of my dogs. However I do personally understand the ordeal with cataracts. My Cody developed them in both eyes and went completely blind in a matter of 2 weeks. We did chose to have the surgery and were lucky to get his sight back. I understand the risks regardless of who I purchase from and am completely happy of _my choice_. Thanks for the info on your fur babies medical problems.


Again - nobody is criticizing your choice in where you purchased your dogs. 

And since you won't disclose where you got Cody from and from the sounds of it he had extensive issues, I have to wonder if that was a reputable breeder or something else. There are a lot of "big breeders" out there who do all the clearances but still breed dogs who likely should not be bred.  

Recommending that people buy a byb? That's incomprehensible.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Megora said:


> Again - nobody is criticizing your choice in where you purchased your dogs.
> 
> And since you won't disclose where you got Cody from and from the sounds of it he had extensive issues, I have to wonder if that was a reputable breeder or something else.
> 
> Recommending that people buy a byb? That's incomprehensible.


What purpose would it solve to mention her name on a huge public forum? I don't care if people don't believe me. I know the truth. Pretty much everyone here is criticizing my choice lol. But that's ok.
And for what it's worth I said early on I don't believe the op is ready for a puppy, regardless of where he gets it.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Max's Dad said:


> Good idea.


I don't know how and why you would be offended at my post. Maybe it's because I seem to have targeted you, so I'm sorry. I was a little disturbed that you were defending your decision to buy from a BYB since the puppies were so out of standard and without clearances. Would you not agree that you would have more peace of mind if you knew that Max's parents have good hips and elbows, especially in this case? Only an x-ray evaluated by the OFA could tell for sure. I am just saying what I feel, as you are. I am very, very paranoid about HD and ED. I am a small female, and I am carrying my 30 lb puppy up and down 5 flights of stairs every day. I carry her on and off the bed and the car. She rarely walks on concrete; her exercise comes from running around at the park on soft grass. So, of course, if I had a really big golden, I would be even more worried. The standard may or may not be "arbitrary" but HD/ED resulting from weight and size is very real.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Nobody recommended a byb to the op. Unless I missed something? Some of us are just stating what we did. Is stating our experiences against the rules of this board?


People have said that there's nothing wrong with the average pet owner buying from a BYB if they're not going to show their dogs. It may not be an outright recommendation, but you can guess which way that statement would sway the OP's decision. However, it seems like he had already made his decision before this debate started.. so.. that's that.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> People have said that there's nothing wrong with the average pet owner buying from a BYB if they're not going to show their dogs. It may not be an outright recommendation, but you can guess which way that statement would sway the OP's decision. However, it seems like he had already made his decision before this debate started.. so.. that's that.


Opinions are not recommendations. And everyone has a right to their own opinion or am I wrong? However I do agree that I think the op already made up his mind.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Opinions are not recommendations. And everyone has a right to their own opinion or am I wrong? However I do agree that I think the op already made up his mind.


Yes, that is why I said it wasn't an outright recommendation. I never said people were recommending BYBs.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> Yes, that is why I said it wasn't an outright recommendation. Btw, I never said people were recommending BYBs.


And I think Molly is a doll


----------



## Vhuynh2

Thank you, Wyatt is very cute with that tennis ball halfway in his mouth


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Vhuynh2 said:


> Thank you, Wyatt is very cute with that tennis ball halfway in his mouth


Thanks! I really need to update and put recent pictures up. Working on getting a new computer and router set up this weekend. So fingers crossed it might happen


----------



## Laurie

I'm going to chime in here simply because I am the owner of 3 Goldens from a BYB. When I got my first Golden, Reno, I had no idea what to look for. I wanted a Golden puppy, looked in the paper and found him. That was almost 12 years ago. My second Golden, Phoenix, came 2 months later. Same thing, found him advertised on a website. My third Golden, Austin, same thing, found him advertised on Kijiji and brought him home. My fourth Golden, Lincoln, same thing!!! 

I will admit that prior to finding Austin, I did contact a couple of breeders. At that time neither of them had puppies available. Due to circumstances (we had just lost Phoenix and needed a friend for Reno) and due to the fact that I couldn't convince hubby to pay $1,000 for a puppy, we brought Austin home. Same thing with Lincoln.
All 4 of my dogs combined cost me a total of $1,000.

I'm going to speak to their health. Reno is almost 12 years old. Last June he was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. He required a splenectomy. His surgery cost us $1,300. Prior that, being truthfully honest, his vet bills (not including his annual vaccinations) cost us less than $500.00. He was at the vet maybe 3 times....a couple of ear infections and a cut paw. We have paid more in the last year for his medication than we had in the previous 10 years.

Phoenix passed away in March 2009 following bloat surgery. He was 8 years old. His surgery and post surgery care cost us $1,200. Prior to that, 2 vet visits...one for an abscess and his neutering. Total cost around $400.00.

Austin is 3.5 years old. He has seen the vet for a couple of ear infections, a bout of uveitis (following his vaccinations), a sore tummy and his neutering. Total cost around $1,000. This is on top of his regular vaccinations.

Lincoln is 3.3 years old. He has seen the vet three times. Once for an abscess, once for an ear infection and his neutering. Total cost around $600.00.

I should note that we do have insurance for Austin and Lincoln.

All 4 of my Goldens had/have wonderful dispositions. They are smart and very social. They have no issues whatsoever (other than being spoiled rotten). They are what you would expect from a Golden Retriever. 

I am one who has been very lucky with Goldens from a BYB. Having said that, Austin and Lincoln are still young and have many years ahead of them. How much time Reno has left, we don't know. We do our very best to ensure that they have the best life possible. They are the loves of my life!!!!!

Now, given the luck I've had thus far with my Goldens, would I go back to a BYB for another puppy......not a chance!!! I have done my research over the past few years (since joining the forum) and have become so much more informed. It's almost become an obsession. I do my best to steer friends away from BYBs whether it is a Golden or any other breed. 

I feel rather guilty when I say I purchased from a BYB but at the time, I was misinformed (I don't want to say ignorant). Do I love my boys any less knowing where they came from, NO!!! Actually, I love them more every day because of what they have become ....they are my precious angels!

My new little boy will be coming home this summer....he's coming from parents (grandparents) who have had their clearances done. And best of all, after years of preaching to DH, he's on board with paying for a well bred Golden!!!!

ETA: Sorry, I didn't realize how long this post was!!


----------



## hvgoldens4

I am a breeder and have been for many years. I show my dogs, do all health clearances, our dogs live in our home and puppies are born in my bedroom. I live, eat and sleep goldens. There isn't a question that I couldn't answer for you about how long their ancestors lived and what they died from, what they had to contribute to the breed and all information on thier clearances. Our foundation bitch is currently 15.5 years old. I have 5 generations that have descended from her that are living in our home with us. I keep in contact with the people who have our puppies because that information is vital to knowing if I am making the correct breeding decisions.

There is a standard for a golden retriever. If people just bred goldens with no regard for the standard, it wouldn't take us long until we had dogs that don't fit the standard. Goldens are supposed to be gun dogs. The fact that they are gun dogs IS important, even if you "just want a pet". The characteristics of a gun dog ARE what make goldens such wonderful companions and family dogs. The soft mouth, the bidability, the desire to be with their people and their intelligence. 

I also can't tell you how many people see our dogs and ask what kind of dog they are because they don't look like the golden that the neighbor has up the road. This is not a good thing. Goldens are supposed to be a certain size and weight. To breed goldens out of that size and weight, if you kept breeding those dogs, again, you would wind up with dogs that no longer fit the standard.

As to information about reputable breeders vs. BYB and health problems.....Well, not a week has gone by in over 10 years of breeding that I haven't gotten a phone call from someone who purchased a dog from the paper, the neighbor, a co-worker, you name it that has a terrible story to tell about their golden. Many of them have dropped over dead from SAS when out in their back yard. Just because a dog looks healthy and even if a regular vet says the dog is healthy, really doens't mean that it is. A dog can have a heart murmur that a GP vet cannot detect-this is why the GRCA requires that clearances come from a cardiologist. It is also hard to tell if a dog has issues with hot spots, ear problems or allergies just by looking at them. They may not be having a flare up. I get lots of calls from folks who have dogs with terrible allergy and hot spot problems. I have even had a few calls from people who had to eventually euthanize their dog because they were allergic to basically everything, including themselves. Seizures are also something that you cannot tell about a dog by looking at them. This past week, I got a call from a doctor who had purchased a golden from the newspaper and he had to put her to sleep because she had been having seizures her entire short life and then went into a seizure and they couldn't get it to stop. The dog wasn't even 3 years old. I get phone calls from families that have had dogs with no hips sockets and had to make the hard choice between euthanasia or spending $10000 in hip replacements. These are just a few issues-I could go on and on and on.

Loving your dog does not mean you should breed it. There is a lot that goes into breeding and it is much more than just putting two dogs together. Puppies need to be socialized properly and found good homes. I also cannot tell you how many phone calls I have gotten over the years because someone decided to breed their dog because everyone wanted one and then when the puppies were born, they were all of a sudden no where to be found and these people now have 8-10 twelve week old puppies who are totally unruly that they are desperate to find homes for.

Sorry, but the adage is true. You do get what you pay for. Yes, you can sometimes get a "deal" and have things work out but I could give 100's of examples where the deal wasn't so much of a deal in the end.


----------



## Shalva

A critique of the breeder IS NOT a critique of the dog. People can't get past this. It doesn't mean your dog is not a wonderful dog it just means that the breeder didn't do what they needed to do. 

And lets not forget a backyard breeder can still be a nice person 
a backyard breeder can have nice dogs 
a backyard breeder can love their dogs 
a backyard breeder can have a clean house 
but ultimately they are still a backyard breeder who is breeding for the wrong reasons 

While clearances are no guarantees the fact is that where do people think these health issues come from... SAS used to be a huge problem and through careful screening and removing dogs with the disease from a breeding program it is becoming less and less of an issue in well bred dogs. Backyard Bred dogs are still dying from SAS on a regular basis and don't think for a second that the disease won't make a resurgence if people don't do clearances and the heart clearance can be one of the most expensive. Clearances give us the best information to be able to make good breeding decisions and helps us to make the long term decisions... beyond this one litter, to how we will help the breed ten years down the road, over the long term. So we can get SAS under control, or hip dysplasia... the fact is that people will love whatever puppy they get and think it was destiny or whatever but thats what dogs were developed to do, to weasel their ways into our hearts so that we love and care for them. They really are an effective parasite. 

Puppies are hard work, my neighbor got a german shepherd pup about ten years ago (they now have one of my pups) and Maggie was put to sleep at age 3 after going through their fence to bite a jogger, this was after she bit a neighbors kid. The thing is that they socialized her like crazy... she went everywhere with them, but she was fearful from the time she was a pup. I worked with her and she was a skittish fearful dog. My neighbors were convinced they were just bad dog owners... they are not. 

I got an email from a woman the other day pimping out her golden ... he just turned two... 

"Hi. My name is _______ from ______ English Goldens. I have a gorgeous stud available to approved females. He is OFA heart, hips, elbows and CERF eyes certified. He is very large bone, broad and has the calmest, sweetest personality. He is white/cream. He is proven and throws very large litters (last one 11 pups). He is 2 years old. We charge $1800 for natural breeding and a bit more for chilled semen. His past pups sold for $2200-2500 each. Please inquire within if you are ever looking for a dream boy like Harry. "

Lets just say the conversation didn't go well when I asked specific questions about pedigree and structure and the results of his optigen testing and what the actual OFA certification for hips rated them as, or what titles he had earned. 

The fact is that This is not about your individual wonderful dog... this is about the breed as a whole; the breed that EVERYONE on this board professes to love. Don't think for a second that diseases that affect other breeds won't become a problem in our breed if breeders aren't careful. Don't think that diseases we have mostly under control won't make a resurgence if breeders aren't doing due diligence. Don't think that new things won't pop up


----------



## Wagners Mom2

hvgoldens4 said:


> I am a breeder and have been for many years. I show my dogs, do all health clearances, our dogs live in our home and puppies are born in my bedroom. I live, eat and sleep goldens. There isn't a question that I couldn't answer for you about how long their ancestors lived and what they died from, what they had to contribute to the breed and all information on thier clearances. Our foundation bitch is currently 15.5 years old. I have 5 generations that have descended from her that are living in our home with us. I keep in contact with the people who have our puppies because that information is vital to knowing if I am making the correct breeding decisions.
> 
> There is a standard for a golden retriever. If people just bred goldens with no regard for the standard, it wouldn't take us long until we had dogs that don't fit the standard. Goldens are supposed to be gun dogs. The fact that they are gun dogs IS important, even if you "just want a pet". The characteristics of a gun dog ARE what make goldens such wonderful companions and family dogs. The soft mouth, the bidability, the desire to be with their people and their intelligence.
> 
> I also can't tell you how many people see our dogs and ask what kind of dog they are because they don't look like the golden that the neighbor has up the road. This is not a good thing. Goldens are supposed to be a certain size and weight. To breed goldens out of that size and weight, if you kept breeding those dogs, again, you would wind up with dogs that no longer fit the standard.
> 
> As to information about reputable breeders vs. BYB and health problems.....Well, not a week has gone by in over 10 years of breeding that I haven't gotten a phone call from someone who purchased a dog from the paper, the neighbor, a co-worker, you name it that has a terrible story to tell about their golden. Many of them have dropped over dead from SAS when out in their back yard. Just because a dog looks healthy and even if a regular vet says the dog is healthy, really doens't mean that it is. A dog can have a heart murmur that a GP vet cannot detect-this is why the GRCA requires that clearances come from a cardiologist. It is also hard to tell if a dog has issues with hot spots, ear problems or allergies just by looking at them. They may not be having a flare up. I get lots of calls from folks who have dogs with terrible allergy and hot spot problems. I have even had a few calls from people who had to eventually euthanize their dog because they were allergic to basically everything, including themselves. Seizures are also something that you cannot tell about a dog by looking at them. This past week, I got a call from a doctor who had purchased a golden from the newspaper and he had to put her to sleep because she had been having seizures her entire short life and then went into a seizure and they couldn't get it to stop. The dog wasn't even 3 years old. I get phone calls from families that have had dogs with no hips sockets and had to make the hard choice between euthanasia or spending $10000 in hip replacements. These are just a few issues-I could go on and on and on.
> 
> Loving your dog does not mean you should breed it. There is a lot that goes into breeding and it is much more than just putting two dogs together. Puppies need to be socialized properly and found good homes. I also cannot tell you how many phone calls I have gotten over the years because someone decided to breed their dog because everyone wanted one and then when the puppies were born, they were all of a sudden no where to be found and these people now have 8-10 twelve week old puppies who are totally unruly that they are desperate to find homes for.
> 
> Sorry, but the adage is true. You do get what you pay for. Yes, you can sometimes get a "deal" and have things work out but I could give 100's of examples where the deal wasn't so much of a deal in the end.


I hate to sound ignorant--but for the sake of learning, what is SAS? Thank you.


----------



## hvgoldens4

Wagners Mom said:


> I hate to sound ignorant--but for the sake of learning, what is SAS? Thank you.


Asking a question is NEVER ignorant!! That is how we all learn. 

SAS is the acronym for Subvalvular-aortic stenosis. It is a genetic heart problem that can affect golden retrievers. In its mildest forms, the dog will have a normal life span and will pass from something other than the SAS. However, in more severe forms, the dog can literally just drop over dead with no warning.

It is not good enough for the dog to have been checked by a regluar vet because there are subtlties that a GP vet may miss. It is recommended that all breeding stock be checked by a veterinary cardiologist and if there is a question, an echocardiogram be done.

There is some information about all the clearances and SAS here: Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA) HEALTH


----------



## Wagners Mom2

I'll chime in too. While I love my Wagner with all of my heart and wouldn't trade him for the world, I admit, I didn't get him from a reputable breeder. This was 10 years ago--I saw him, fell in love and took him home--not really knowing/thinking about the consequences of my actions. My first golden experience was going to a neighboring shelter to help my sister in law look for a dog and there sat an adorable little golden, with the sweetest big brown eyes I've ever seen. She was about 3 years old--I went home, told my mom about her and we brought her home 2 days later. She was a wonderful dog--but as she aged, she had her fair share of health problems. Fortunately though, we were able to share about 10 years with her and lost her around 13. I've been quite lucky with Wagner--with the exception of some allergy issues--but not to discount them, they are a pain in my butt, (but more so his). Knock on wood. We are getting in the thick of his senior years and I pray that his issues stay "minor" and we can keep him comfortable, happy and healthy for many more years to come.  

I'm a few years out from getting another dog, period--but I'm already starting to research breeders and save up my money for what I hope/pray will be a well bred, healthy dog. My hope is to have a wonderful, loving companion--but I'd also like to do extensive obedience classes, obtain a Canine Good Citizen with him and do therapy work on a volunteer basis as well. 

Also, I have a young child. (He just turned 3)--so in a few years, he will still be young and a wonderful temperment will be more important than ever with a new dog. It must love people and most importantly be safe around my child. I will never leave them unattended--& we're already establishing a good base of respect from our son towards the dogs, but I can't risk an "off personality" from a less than wonderful breeding program. 

As for the cost of a good puppy. Yes, $1500 is a lot of money--and yes, my husband has "bucked" at the idea of it. (And honestly, if he had it his way, I'd be feeding Kibbles and Bits with a huge smile on my face--dag on cheapskate. lol). But, the way I see it is, I was big into horses for many years. While I still love them and deeply enjoy them, I also realize I don't have the time I did prior to family in my single days--and owning them again will not be in my immediate future, if ever again. Plus, I now live in the city with no immediate plans of moving back to the country any time soon--and honestly, if we did, I'd rather have a really nice "golden play area" instead of pastures, at this point. Anyway, *this* is going to be my angle on the price of a good quality puppy. "But honey, I'm saving tons of money by not buying another horse and all of the vet bills associated with a horse".  Win/Win. 

Tough thread. So many are so passionate about breeding--and rightfully so. But as someone that adores the golden breed, I'm going to try my best to do my part to better the breed by buying quality and reputable. I'm also not opposed to rescuing at all--so if there happens to be a dog that fits our family through this avenue, than I would welcome that opportunity as well.


----------



## Wagners Mom2

hvgoldens4 said:


> Asking a question is NEVER ignorant!! That is how we all learn.
> 
> SAS is the acronym for Subvalvular-aortic stenosis. It is a genetic heart problem that can affect golden retrievers. In its mildest forms, the dog will have a normal life span and will pass from something other than the SAS. However, in more severe forms, the dog can literally just drop over dead with no warning.
> 
> It is not good enough for the dog to have been checked by a regluar vet because there are subtlties that a GP vet may miss. It is recommended that all breeding stock be checked by a veterinary cardiologist and if there is a question, an echocardiogram be done.
> 
> There is some information about all the clearances and SAS here: Golden Retriever Club of America (GRCA) HEALTH


Thank you, very much! I'm just learning about clearances and tests, etc--so I wasn't sure what that stood for! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.


----------



## nixietink

BIG thank you to the breeders for coming on this thread!

I could have reiterated everything everyone else said until I was blue in the face, and it wouldn't have mattered. It is nice to have real life experience shared.


----------



## cgriffin

I think the original poster has left the building. I think he/she is going to do what he/she wants to do which is get one of the pups he/she was talking about. 
Personally, I think "I want" wins over "I need" in this case. We want a lot of things, does not mean we need them or should get them at this particular time.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

It's so nice hear the real life experiences _with all our fur babies_. And good to know that there seems to be alot of "luck" floating around. I think I will cruise the health boards and do some more research. Unless others want to chime in on their fur babies health problems?


----------



## goldhaven

Anyone want to start a new thread about the health of dogs by "reputable breeders" and the health of dogs by BYB. I would be curious to know where all the dogs with health issues came from and just how much luck is out there. Also, would you consider behavior problems genetic or environmental?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

goldhaven said:


> Anyone want to start a new thread about the health of dogs by "reputable breeders" and the health of dogs by BYB. I would be curious to know where all the dogs with health issues came from and just how much luck is out there. Also, would you consider behavior problems genetic or environmental?


I think that is a great idea. It's not that I want to know who has more or less, I am interested in what type if any from all. I don't want it to turn into a war and who has more or less. That's not what I'm about. I am just curious to see what if any types of health problems dogs have from all sources. However it wouldn't be fair to just hear stories. Let's hear from owners of the dogs. I'm also curious to know how many of your babies died from cancer.


----------



## Angelina

Wow, it really has turned into a war! And it isn't like anyone is going to change anyone else's mind people!

Show breeders should definatly try and 'improve' the breed but then thats controversial. Is the field retriever really improved by becoming the show type dog? My 'field breed' has no ear problems, skin problems and it extremely athletic. My 'show' girl has terrible ears, a coat why too heavy for what is needed. But both have that golden personality and that is what is important to me...

I've seen the same thing in horses...quarter horses that have such small hooves they break down by the time they are 5 yet the original QH was robust and a working horse. Arabs that can be show under halter (not ridden), stretched out with their pretty heads but now bred with loins so weak they can't work. Where does function get bypassed for perceived beauty?

BYB, Hobby breeders...what is the difference? Define these terms because I have a feeling they mean different things to different people. 

I'll tell you a great place to start to gather a database on dog deaths and if they have clearances (and the age of the dog...very important) and that is from this site which records and honors all the dogs that have gone to dog heaven. Your records are right there. But it would take someone committed to contacting these people and be willing to ask if they would fill out a questionaire. Who would have the motivation for that?

Bottom line is I think we can all agree puppy mills are evil and agree to disagree on if one wants to pay for clearances or not for a dog who will be a pet and not in a breeding program. It is a personal decision and again; no one is going to change anyone's mind because theory and life experience are two different things.


----------



## Lennap

I have just finished reading through each and every post on this thread, and I cannot believe no one mentioned the one thing that really separates the responsible, reputable breeders from everyone else.

A responsible and reputable breeder typically will not breed their dog until they have already gotten contracts for all the probable puppies of that litter. Too many puppy mills and BYBs are breeding for the sake of "loving" the dogs - creating unwanted puppies. It is such a sad, sad shame.

I am devoted to dogs, and think all breeds need to be improved. All breeders need to focus on health first, tempermant then conformation/color. Truly I don't care about freaking color!

My Remy is a mutantly large Golden who I got from a wonderful rescue group (in Memphis, in case the OP is still reading). We believe he came from a BYB who let his mother be exposed to some type of toxin during the pregnancy which probably caused the problems he has. I told the rescue I would take a dog with problems as long as they didn't shorten his life. I always say he may not be a perfect golden, but he is definitely my perfect Remy! And he totally has the golden heart!

Frankly if people are willing to go to BYBs I implore them to look to the golden retriever rescues. There are so many beautiful, wonderful goldens that don't have the clearances but need homes, but won't be promoting something that really should end.

OK sorry off my soapbox.


----------



## nixietink

Wyatt's mommy said:


> *It's so nice hear the real life experiences with all our fur babies.* And good to know that there seems to be alot of "luck" floating around. I think I will cruise the health boards and do some more research. Unless others want to chime in on their fur babies health problems?


Uhhh exactly. Which has been shared in this thread. Hence why I said it was nice to have the breeder perspective as well.


----------



## nixietink

Angelina said:


> *BYB, Hobby breeders...what is the difference? Define these terms because I have a feeling they mean different things to different people. *


I agree. Maybe this will help?

From CarolinaCasey:
*The healthiest dogs with some of the best temperaments are going to come from hobby breeders. These are breeders that compete with their dogs (as their hobby!) in conformation (dog shows), agility, hunt/field work, or obedience. This is where you'll want your new best friend to come from because these breeders sincerely care about the dogs they're producing and adhere to the GRCA's code of ethics. They screen their dogs for hip/elbow dysplasia through OFA, eyes yearly through CERF, and hearts by a cardiologist. Being from PA, there are a lot of unscrupulous breeders that you need to be aware of. Ask the breeder for the AKC registered name of the mother/father and type it into the OFA database. If the search yields no results... run as fast as you can from the litter!  If you've ever unsure, ask the forum as we're very good at it.*

From the GRCA:

PET SHOP or DEALER.

The worst possible choice. The puppies are poorly bred and raised. They are thought of as merchandise to be sold for a high profit. The high profit results because little has been put into the breeding or the care of the puppies. Many are sickly. Pet shops rely heavily on impulse buying, which is no way to choose an addition to the family.

BACKYARD BREEDER.

Also a poor choice. This is the person who owns a pet Golden and thinks it would be fun to have puppies, that it would be a great experience for the children, or that the bitch should be bred once before she is spayed. Even worse, perhaps it's being done just to make money. Usually this breeder knows little about the standard or history of the breed, and still less about proper care. The backyard breeder is not aware of breed problems, and doesn't care. This person's only goal is to produce puppies, and when the fun is over, to sell them quickly.

SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER.

The very best choice. The serious and dedicated hobby breeder regards his/her dogs as even more than a hobby, although the true fancier does not expect to make a profit. When someone is involved in dogs for the enjoyment of each individual animal, for participating in any of the many aspects of dogsport, and for producing the finest animals possible, the results are SUPERIOR. The best breeders acknowledge responsibility for each and every puppy produced, and stand behind every dog they have bred.


----------



## MercyMom

MyBentley said:


> I think this is very true. This is a subject I always feel very torn about.
> 
> Before I even knew about breeders who show and are very professional in their approach to breeding (all tests and clearances), I bought my Bentley (now 11 yrs.) from a farmer in Iowa who had a litter once every couple of years. I saw the sire and dam, knew they were AKC and the dogs seemed to have good temperaments. I purchased him for $250 . . . didn't even ask about clearances.
> 
> Outside of a torn ACL when he was 3 years old (due to a sports injury) and not tolerating some grains, he has been an extremely healthy dog. I've paid no more in vet bills through the years with Bentley than I have with my almost 5 year old lab who was one of a litter from parents who had every clearance in the book and were show dogs with impeccable lineage.
> 
> Some may say I just got lucky, but I think we paint with too broad of a brush stroke when we project the idea that you'll pay thousand of dollars in vet bills if you buy from a "back yard breeder" but be "in the clear" with a puppy from a breeding with the highest standards.
> 
> I appreciate and know we need breeders who are carefully checking for health and promoting the breed standard in both appearance and temperament. At the same time, I fear that we are pricing the middle class and below out of the experience of raising a pure bred puppy - both in the initial price of a purebred puppy and in the expectation that every conceivable medical test and procedure available must be utilized through the years to be considered a responsible dog parent. It just seems like there must be some middle ground.
> 
> To the OP: Puppies are extremely time-consuming and demanding - although super cute. Take time to consider if a somewhat older dog might be an option; or a golden rescue; etc. Explore all the avenues before deciding what direction you want to go.


I consider myself middle class and I purchased my pup at over $1500. I saw two other people, one with a Lexus, and one with an Infiniti purchase a puppy from my breeder, and I was like, am I the only one with a Toyota Corolla purchasing from this breeder?  I agree that people of all backgrounds should be able to enjoy the therapuetic benefit of dogs, although I agree there are those people who might not quite have what it takes to raise a puppy, but would be better off with a rescue. I started shopping for a Golden in 2003, but between having a dog agressive dog at home and my having to file for bankruptcy in 2004, I knew I had to wait a while longer. I ended up not getting a golden (my first golden) until this year. I believe the middle class can afford a $1500-$2000 dog if they wait and save their money.


----------



## MercyMom

akgolden said:


> I agree. There is the old saying you get what you pay for but usually that's not applied to living creatures, more so manufactured items. You can screen and check all you want but they are still a living, breathing animal and things can happen, get over looked.
> 
> When we got our lab she was AKC papered and supposedly came from a great background. We were originally going to pay $600 for the pup but due to the pup getting a UTI before going to get her the breeder gave us a discount and also all the paper work from the vet and medications. We ended up paying $400 and had paper saying it was just a UTI from the vet and just some antibiotics were needed.
> 
> 
> Fast forward to today. She is a little over 2 years old and I have over 10k invested in her. Turns out that UTI was actually a very very rare condition called ectopic urter. She was party of the family the day we got her and once we found out her condition I felt I owed it to her to try the surgeries and procedures to stop her from leaking.
> 
> You can't plan for everything, paying x amount wont assure you will have a trouble free dog.


 Even well bred dogs still get into socks! I am recovering from that myself right now!


----------



## MercyMom

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Obviously you have never been to Cozumel? Not to mention the price


Cozumel is beautiful!


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

nixietink said:


> I agree. Maybe this will help?
> 
> From CarolinaCasey:
> *The healthiest dogs with some of the best temperaments are going to come from hobby breeders. These are breeders that compete with their dogs (as their hobby!) in conformation (dog shows), agility, hunt/field work, or obedience. This is where you'll want your new best friend to come from because these breeders sincerely care about the dogs they're producing and adhere to the GRCA's code of ethics.They screen their dogs for hip/elbow dysplasia through OFA, eyes yearly through CERF, and hearts by a cardiologist. Being from PA, there are a lot of unscrupulous breeders that you need to be aware of. Ask the breeder for the AKC registered name of the mother/father and type it into the OFA database. If the search yields no results... run as fast as you can from the litter!  If you've ever unsure, ask the forum as we're very good at it.*


So if the hobby breeder doesn't compete their dogs they won't go the extra step to screen or sincerly care about their dogs? If they don't compete would that make them byb's?


----------



## vcm5

I just read through this thread, and it has really surprised me. I have no criticisms of where or how anyone has gotten their dogs, it is a personal choice and none of my business, so I would never say anything about it. 

But to be completely frank, anyone who doesn't think that a dog from a serious, reputable hobby breeder is significantly less likely to develop breed specific health problems, simply has not researched the facts of genetics sufficiently. You can get an awesome, healthy, dream dog from a BYB, but the truth of the matter is that you have a MUCH better chance of getting this awesome, healthy, dream dog from a reputable breeder.

In addition, you might be the most responsible amazing dog owner in the world, I would never dispute that, but when you buy from a BYB you are keeping them in business and encouraging them to continue. So before you buy from a BYB, and this is no comment on you, think about many of the other BYB customers who are not as responsible as you and whose dogs may suffer because of it. When you buy from a BYB, you encourage them to continue, and puppies will suffer, not at your hands, but at the hands of others and at the hands of poor genetics.


----------



## Sashiro

This thread exploded, yeesh.
In the end, I bought from a different breeder. The father was OFA hip/elbow certified, at least. The pup has been wormed and has all the vaccinations he needs this year. He's 16 weeks. I just got home with him.


----------



## cgriffin

He is awfully cute!


----------



## Max's Dad

Wow! Congratulations! He is adorable. Looking forward to more photos. But maybe in the pictures thread.


----------



## Shalva

all puppies are cute but at the end of the day the original poster has encouraged another irresponsible breeder to continue breeding with no concern to the health and welfare of the breed or the individual dogs and people wonder why golden retrievers have so many health issues. Its because of our instant gratification society and the need to have what we want regardless of the repercussions to anyone or anything else but ourselves.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Shalva said:


> all puppies are cute but at the end of the day the original poster has encouraged another irresponsible breeder to continue breeding with no concern to the health and welfare of the breed or the individual dogs and people wonder why golden retrievers have so many health issues. Its because of our instant gratification society and the need to have what we want regardless of the repercussions to anyone or anything else but ourselves.


I think we all knew our efforts to sway the OP's decision on this thread were futile. We tried.

Cute puppy nonetheless.


----------



## newport

If price is such a big issue--- just go to the pound and save a life. You might end up paying a couple hundred dollars and in doing so give a dog a home that otherwise might be put to sleep. If you have to have a golden-- adopt an older Golden from rescue . It is what I chose to do and my Lola is the best dog in the whole wide world!:wave:


----------



## MyBentley

Sashiro said:


> This thread exploded, yeesh.
> In the end, I bought from a different breeder. The father was OFA hip/elbow certified, at least. The pup has been wormed and has all the vaccinations he needs this year. He's 16 weeks. I just got home with him.


Congratulations! I hope your new pup settles in well. Enjoy!


----------



## MercyMom

Sashiro said:


> This thread exploded, yeesh.
> In the end, I bought from a different breeder. The father was OFA hip/elbow certified, at least. The pup has been wormed and has all the vaccinations he needs this year. He's 16 weeks. I just got home with him.


I am so happy that you got your puppy! My, she's older than Mercy and I brought her home on March 30th. I am so glad you have your "comfort" dog who will bring you much therapuetic joy! Enjoy her!


----------



## Jamm

Cute puppy. I wouldn't be mad at this thread exploding.. all these people care about the breed and wanted you to do things the right way. Hopefully you read it and learned some things


----------



## Sally's Mom

It happens to me all of the time, people, not even clients call me up for info about purchasing Goldens. I tell them what they need to look for in terms of clearances, ask the breeder why they are breeding the dogs, do they compete, etc? More times than not, I am shocked when they listen to me... Most people want instant gratification as has been said previously....and just get the pup out of the paper or our local sell it rag "Uncle Henry's"... I had one client ask me about a breeder, when I told her my opinion, never saw her again. Friends of hers who are clients told me about her new puppy. Turns out she had already purchased the pup when she asked me my opinion... I hope that the OP' s pup with minimal parent clearances will turn out ok. With animals, sometimes you get what you pay for....


----------



## hvgoldens4

Just had this VERY same talk with our vet today. He said he has a long time client who had gotten a puppy from the pet store(and spent quite a bit of money on said dog during its life because of various issues it had.) So, they wanted to get a good dog this time.

He told them he knew a very good breeder but they would have to wait for awhile for a puppy because good breeders pups are in high demand. They said that would be fine and wanted the info.

They came in to the clinic with a dog they had purchased from an Amish man last week. :no: 

I told him to look at it as job security!


----------



## MikaTallulah

I already know which breeders I will contact when I am ready but that won't be for a least a year. I love my red heads. I want health and beauty.

The best things come to those who wait.


----------



## Ljilly28

kdowningxc said:


> The first three puppy visits could easily add up to $800 depending on your vet, and if your puppy has worms or a UTI, both very common in BYB pups, and others for that matter. Let alone food costs and if something like your puppy eating a sock happens, what do you do?
> I am a college student, I also happen to show my dog, and I work very very hard to train him, keep him in shape and give him the socialization he needs while in school (mechanical Engineering for that matter), it is not easy, and might add more stress than anything else, at least for the first year. Golden puppies can be very difficult.
> 
> I would strongly suggest the OP look at a golden retriever rescue, they desperately need their older goldens be adopted, these dogs might need vet care, but I know the rescue up here helps a lot in that regard if you get a senior golden. An old golden will need less constant attention and would be a good choice for a college student and someone who might need a therapy dog.
> 
> 
> BYB are bad and no one can use logic to argue otherwise, science and research have proven doing clearances WILL reduce expensive health problems that plague our breed, doing otherwise will only increase those problems in the breed, that is bad, no matter how you look at it.


I took my golden, Joplin, to college with me (Colgate University in rural central NY state), and not only did I have to be responsible to keep him safe, but I had to plan so carefully to make my housemates, boyfriend etc aware of how VERY seriously I took it bc there were parties at night, rugby pub practice in our yard on Fridays, people doing crazy high jinx, and also so much pressure to write papers and study too. It was rewarding to have Joplin on campus with me, we ran five to seven miles every day on the trails and spent many happy hours playing frisbee on the quad etc, and I was lucky my friends wanted to live in a house so I could have him, and respected the boundaries I set for his safety, but sometimes I can't believe I did it. He lived to be nearly 16, and companioned me from my late teens to my mid 30's. What memories. . . I give Kim all kinds of credit for also being so exceedingly responsible. I just want the OP to realize how VERY hard it can be to control the college years enough to make it super-safe and secure for a baby dog even other than financially.


----------



## Ljilly28

kfayard said:


> I can not see anybody breeding with out clearances and doing it for the love?? To me, that just does not make sense.


I'm finding it hard to see how anyone can argue with this! If you love the breed, you do clearances before having a litter, and also make sure you know the issues brought to the table by each dog for several generations so you do not double up on problems for which there aren't clearances like seizures, swallowing problems, early cancer. . . To get this info, you do need to be a solid citizen of your peer group of breeders, active in a club or venue bc much is word of mouth on things like cause of death etc. Goldens are a high risk breed, sadly. Only knowledgable people should breed them.


----------



## Ljilly28

Wyatt's mommy said:


> So if the hobby breeder doesn't compete their dogs they won't go the extra step to screen or sincerly care about their dogs? If they don't compete would that make them byb's?


Again, it is hard to see how someone in isolation without a mentor or a peer group active in goldens could learn the health issues of particular dogs and lines before they decided to breed, as so much is oral history. You can't look up a dog on k9data and know if it had swallowing problems, seizures, skin problems, nasty temperament- that knowledge comes through building relationships inside the community with master breeders who have watched over the breed for their lifetimes.


----------



## Shalva

I am honestly very tired of watching people who profess to love golden retrievers try and try and expend so much energy justifying the poor breeding practices that harm the breed they profess to love. If they only expended their energy on trying to help the breed and assist the breeders who are trying to help the breed just think of where we could be. 

justify justify justify.... trying to convince themselves that what they and other do or did has no impact on the breed. 

It's starting to get a bit ridiculous and annoying if you want my opinion.


----------



## ckshin05

I love the breed. Wanted one when I was a kid, but now I'm an adult. At first I didn't know much about Goldens. I had to wikipedia it. And then I stumbled on this forum and other websites with local breeders. The thing is I debated the BYB cause I thought I was getting a steal, but I finally learned my lesson when I asked people here for advice. I weighted the pros and cons, and I'm going with a breeder with clearance. I'm not going to randomly buy a friend when I know it would only cause heartache. Be patient. Not everyone new to this breed is that way.


----------



## goldhaven

ckshin05 said:


> I love the breed. Wanted one when I was a kid, but now I'm an adult. At first I didn't know much about Goldens. I had to wikipedia it. And then I stumbled on this forum and other websites with local breeders. The thing is I debated the BYB cause I thought I was getting a steal, but I finally learned my lesson when I asked people here for advice. I weighted the pros and cons, and I'm going with a breeder with clearance. I'm not going to randomly buy a friend when I know it would only cause heartache. Be patient. Not everyone new to this breed is that way.



Yaaaaaa, someone is listening. Thank you:wavey:


----------



## nolefan

goldhaven said:


> Yaaaaaa, someone is listening. Thank you:wavey:


I know it must feel like beating your head against the wall with some of these people, but don't ever give up trying to educate people. There are dozens of people ,maybe more who will read this thread and "get it". This forum has educated SO many people we will never know about. Many people in this world want to do the right thing. They just need a little education and some encouragement. Don't ever give up educating people.


----------



## Vhuynh2

goldhaven said:


> Yaaaaaa, someone is listening. Thank you:wavey:


This forum helped guide me to buy from a reputable breeder. I was clueless until I started lurking on here. Thank you all for helping me support the breed and an ethical breeder.


----------



## ckshin05

Mind you some of the breeders I have spoken to have been less then friendly. Even though I wan to shell out the amount they are asking and also the maintence and caring of my new pet. I feel sometimes discouraged. I know this will pass when my girlie gets home but as new person to this forum and the breed. It is intimidating.


----------



## Laurie

ckshin05 said:


> Mind you some of the breeders I have spoken to have been less then friendly. Even though I wan to shell out the amount they are asking and also the maintence and caring of my new pet. I feel sometimes discouraged. I know this will pass when my girlie gets home but as new person to this forum and the breed. It is intimidating.


 
I've also come across this as well. In the search for my new puppy, I've had some breeders not acknowledge my e-mails, some not answer questions that I thought were legitimate and some just respond with 1 word answers. A couple that I contacted were very open and a joy to communicate with. I understand that breeders are busy but it is discouraging. Regardless of the fact that I already have 3 Goldens, this is my first Golden from a breeder and is an exciting time for us. However, much of the time I was just ready to give up. One night I was so frustrated I just sat and bawled to my boys......of course they thought I was nuts. 

In any event, I have found my puppy and my boys' little brother will be joining our family in July!!!


----------



## Jennifer1

I haven't read all of this thread yet, but just want to add:
I paid $350 for Bear 12 yrs ago from a BYB. She cost me $800 at 7 months old because of osteochonritis dissecans (which is actually something not tested for, but hopefully a good breeder wouldn't breed the dogs again after having it show up in their lines) Other than that she hasn't had any major health issues (until now-cancer-but that is old age related)

Also, I don't think MOST BYB are as bad as people here are saying. I don't think they don't care about the breed, I think in most cases they are just not educated about proper breeding protocols. I DO agree in only supporting breeders who are doing it properly (clearances, showing, temperament etc...), but not because I think BYB are evil, but because that is the best way to keep the golden temperament protected as well as having a better chance at a healthy dog. I think it is better for the breed (any breed) to only "pay" for puppies that are properly bred..

Edit to add, my puppy coming in a few weeks is from a good breeder. Also, just because a breeder has clearances done doesn't make them a good breeder. Check out the clearances to make sure they aren't breeding things they shouldn't be. I saw this a few times looking for my puppy. Just having the clearances done isn't enough, you need to actually breed responsibly based on those clearances!


----------



## Jennifer1

Still catching up on the reading, but it seems like people are assuming no clearances almost equated BAD clearances.
Clearances give you a statistically better chance of not having something happen. No clearances are just that you have NO information. The parents could actually come from generations of perfectly healthy dogs or could come from 1 generation away from severe hip dysplasia. You have no information so it is the luck of the draw.


----------



## ckshin05

Jennifer1 said:


> Still catching up on the reading, but it seems like people are assuming no clearances almost equated BAD clearances.
> Clearances give you a statistically better chance of not having something happen. No clearances are just that you have NO information. The parents could actually come from generations of perfectly healthy dogs or could come from 1 generation away from severe hip dysplasia. You have no information so it is the luck of the draw.


 
Jennifer,

Yes but from what I am told that with good breeding your only narrowing the chance of bad luck. Also most breeders have a health guarantee. NOw mind you that doesn't replace the loss of someone you have grown attached to, but it does show that the breeder does care about the offsprings.


----------



## Jennifer1

here is a statistic about elbow dysplasia. Pretty convincing to me.


> Example 1:
> 
> Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:
> 
> Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED
> 
> Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED
> 
> Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED
> 
> In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected. In any breed where the overall percentage of affected dogs is already lower than the percentage that can be expected when a dog affected with ED is bred to a normal dog (26.1% - 31.3%), one would find few circumstances in which progress can be made by breeding a dog affected with ED.


Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

ckshin05 said:


> Mind you some of the breeders I have spoken to have been less then friendly. Even though I wan to shell out the amount they are asking and also the maintence and caring of my new pet. I feel sometimes discouraged. I know this will pass when my girlie gets home but as new person to this forum and the breed. It is intimidating.


What do you mean by less than friendly. Just curious.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

ckshin05 said:


> I love the breed. Wanted one when I was a kid, but now I'm an adult. At first I didn't know much about Goldens. I had to wikipedia it. And then I stumbled on this forum and other websites with local breeders. The thing is I debated the BYB cause I thought I was getting a steal, but I finally learned my lesson when I asked people here for advice. I weighted the pros and cons, and I'm going with a breeder with clearance. I'm not going to randomly buy a friend when I know it would only cause heartache. Be patient. Not everyone new to this breed is that way.


I was you 12 years ago. I did everything right the first time also. Good luck!


----------



## ckshin05

Wyatt's mommy said:


> What do you mean by less than friendly. Just curious.


 
Less than friendly. Like asking questions then not returning emails. Answering with snide remarks to questions you may ask. Like I asked if she would have a litter this winter? The person responded whenever the dog is in heat. I'm like that is logical but really doesn't answer my question.


----------



## sterregold

Laurie said:


> I've also come across this as well. In the search for my new puppy, I've had some breeders not acknowledge my e-mails, some not answer questions that I thought were legitimate and some just respond with 1 word answers. A couple that I contacted were very open and a joy to communicate with. I understand that breeders are busy but it is discouraging. Regardless of the fact that I already have 3 Goldens, this is my first Golden from a breeder and is an exciting time for us. However, much of the time I was just ready to give up. One night I was so frustrated I just sat and bawled to my boys......of course they thought I was nuts.
> 
> In any event, I have found my puppy and my boys' little brother will be joining our family in July!!!


And just to give a breeder's perspective on things as well, for most reputable breeders it is a hobby, not a business. That means we are working regular jobs to keep our dogs well-fed and housed and doing their activities. Then when we have babies at home it is a LOT of work!

In some ways the internet makes things simpler, but in other ways more complicated. I am able to post my plans, litter news, and procedure on my website--yet I still often receive what appear to be general mass inquiry emails (and if you have email, you have the internet so could visit the website--probably found my email on the internet!!!)--"Hi I'm so-and-so, looking for a puppy to come home in August. What are your plans for litters? How much are your puppies? What are the parents like?" 

Well, when all of that information is on the litter page, and it indicates I do not have a litter planned for the desired time frame, or that the current pups are all placed, sorry but I am not able to personally respond to all of those--I post it all so that people can see in advance whether it will be a fit. As well, be cautious about the vagaries of email--one of my families for my current litter ended up calling me as they had not heard back from me, and it turns out their email had not been getting through. It is also really hard to return phone calls when the message left is so scratchy and quick that I cannot tell the person's name or phone number!


----------



## my4goldens

Just for fun I thought I'd figure out in my pup's six months of life what he has cost me besides his purchase price. I think prospective puppy buyers often only focus on the cost of a new puppy, and not what costs are incurred once he comes home. So here goes:

Two crates, one for upstairs when he was little and one big one: $150
Bed for crates 50
collars/leashes 50
toys (just an estimate, no way to tell exactly) 150
bowls 25
grooming equipment 50
vet puppy package (first shots, checkups) 275
ER visit for choking on rock 283
Metronidazole for coccidia 16.90
Pet insurance (after choking incident figured it was a good idea) 53.00 a month
Registration at AKC (think it was this amt) 25.00
puppy kindergarten 80.00
dog food (3 bags @ $30) 90
another round of Metronidazole 16
Second set of obedience classes 80

I am sure I am forgetting something, and he is worth every penny. Hopefully we won't have any more ER visits, but at least now we have pet insurance on him.


----------



## Laurie

sterregold said:


> And just to give a breeder's perspective on things as well, for most reputable breeders it is a hobby, not a business. That means we are working regular jobs to keep our dogs well-fed and housed and doing their activities. Then when we have babies at home it is a LOT of work!
> 
> In some ways the internet makes things simpler, but in other ways more complicated. I am able to post my plans, litter news, and procedure on my website--yet I still often receive what appear to be general mass inquiry emails (and if you have email, you have the internet so could visit the website--probably found my email on the internet!!!)--"Hi I'm so-and-so, looking for a puppy to come home in August. What are your plans for litters? How much are your puppies? What are the parents like?"
> 
> Well, when all of that information is on the litter page, and it indicates I do not have a litter planned for the desired time frame, or that the current pups are all placed, sorry but I am not able to personally respond to all of those--I post it all so that people can see in advance whether it will be a fit. As well, be cautious about the vagaries of email--one of my families for my current litter ended up calling me as they had not heard back from me, and it turns out their email had not been getting through. It is also really hard to return phone calls when the message left is so scratchy and quick that I cannot tell the person's name or phone number!


 
I wasn't being critical by any means. The breeder I am dealing with had a horrendous few days with her litter so I understand that she wasn't able to respond immediately.

It was just a little frustrating. For example, and this one is kind of humorous when I look back on it. One particular breeder had indicated, on her website, that she was planning a litter during summer of 2012 and to e-mail her with any questions. So I did. Her website didn't list any of her dogs so I politely asked if she could provide me with some information on her dogs. Well, her response was very defensive....told me that she bred for the betterment of the breed, dogs had all clearances, etc. I thanked her for the response and again asked if she could tell me which dogs she was planning to breed. I should note that my e-mail wallpaper at home has pictures of my guys on it. She further responded basically accusing me of being a breeder and looking for a female to breed to my dogs (my guys are neutered); wanted to know where I got my guys, where I lived, etc. I was a little taken back but again responded politely that I was simply looking for a MALE puppy for a companion, that my guys were neutered and that I didn't actually live that far from her. Her final response was "fine, I'll put you on my list"!!!!! Needless to say, my puppy is not coming from her!!

One other breeder had indicated that puppies were due in April and to contact her for information.....5 e-mails later (and a referral from another breeder) and no response. 

I asked another breeder about the current breeding she had advertised and was told to fill out an application first. I thought a simple "the litter is reserved" or "the breeding didn't take place" would have sufficed.

Another breeder....advertised puppies for sale so I contacted her to which she responded that the litter had been reserved but she had another litter coming up. I asked to be put on the list for a male puppy.....no response.

Another breeder has been absolutely wonderful......she lives quite a distance but I was willing to fly there if need be to pick up the puppy. 
I did have my name on another list (but was 7th) and the US showed 6 puppies so I was looking elsewhere just in case. I was informed that there were 9 puppies born and I may be in line for one so I did advise the breeder above and she was very happy for me but still kept me on her list just in case the second litter didn't pan out. I would love one of her puppies but I just really like the pedigree of the one I have chosen to go with.

In any event, the breeder I am working with now has been okay - although it took her awhile to actually tell me if I was going to get a puppy. She has asked me for a deposit now so I think it's safe to say that one of those babies is coming home to me!!!

Anyway.....I understand that breeders are busy and they have other things going on in their lives. I was just somewhat frustrated that they say "to contact me" and you do and get reemed out or ignored. All in all it was an interesting process.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

Laurie said:


> I wasn't being critical by any means. The breeder I am dealing with had a horrendous few days with her litter so I understand that she wasn't able to respond immediately.
> 
> It was just a little frustrating. For example, and this one is kind of humorous when I look back on it. One particular breeder had indicated, on her website, that she was planning a litter during summer of 2012 and to e-mail her with any questions. So I did. Her website didn't list any of her dogs so I politely asked if she could provide me with some information on her dogs. Well, her response was very defensive....told me that she bred for the betterment of the breed, dogs had all clearances, etc. I thanked her for the response and again asked if she could tell me which dogs she was planning to breed. I should note that my e-mail wallpaper at home has pictures of my guys on it. She further responded basically accusing me of being a breeder and looking for a female to breed to my dogs (my guys are neutered); wanted to know where I got my guys, where I lived, etc. I was a little taken back but again responded politely that I was simply looking for a MALE puppy for a companion, that my guys were neutered and that I didn't actually live that far from her. Her final response was "fine, I'll put you on my list"!!!!! Needless to say, my puppy is not coming from her!!
> 
> One other breeder had indicated that puppies were due in April and to contact her for information.....5 e-mails later (and a referral from another breeder) and no response.
> 
> I asked another breeder about the current breeding she had advertised and was told to fill out an application first. I thought a simple "the litter is reserved" or "the breeding didn't take place" would have sufficed.
> 
> Another breeder....advertised puppies for sale so I contacted her to which she responded that the litter had been reserved but she had another litter coming up. I asked to be put on the list for a male puppy.....no response.
> 
> Another breeder has been absolutely wonderful......she lives quite a distance but I was willing to fly there if need be to pick up the puppy.
> I did have my name on another list (but was 7th) and the US showed 6 puppies so I was looking elsewhere just in case. I was informed that there were 9 puppies born and I may be in line for one so I did advise the breeder above and she was very happy for me but still kept me on her list just in case the second litter didn't pan out. I would love one of her puppies but I just really like the pedigree of the one I have chosen to go with.
> 
> In any event, the breeder I am working with now has been okay - although it took her awhile to actually tell me if I was going to get a puppy. She has asked me for a deposit now so I think it's safe to say that one of those babies is coming home to me!!!
> 
> Anyway.....I understand that breeders are busy and they have other things going on in their lives. I was just somewhat frustrated that they say "to contact me" and you do and get reemed out or ignored. All in all it was an interesting process.


Wow! Totally understandable to be frustrated!


----------



## ckshin05

Laurie sort of know what your going through right now.


----------



## sterregold

Laurie said:


> I wasn't being critical by any means. The breeder I am dealing with had a horrendous few days with her litter so I understand that she wasn't able to respond immediately.


And not meaning to be critical in return--your experience had to be frustrating! Just wanted to give the perspective of a breeder so people can see what sometimes fosters our frustration with the way some of the inquiries come at us as well!


----------



## Laurie

sterregold said:


> And not meaning to be critical in return--your experience had to be frustrating! Just wanted to give the perspective of a breeder so people can see what sometimes fosters our frustration with the way some of the inquiries come at us as well!


 
So, just out of curiosity.....was I doing something wrong? Normally when I contacted them, I introduced myself, explained my situation (ie. I had 3 Goldens - one of which has been diagnosed with hemangio, etc.), told them what I was looking for (ie. male) and that we planned on doing obedience and agility with them. I always ended it with "look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience". I just wanted them to be assured that I was interested in their dogs and knew what I was looking for. Like I said, this is the first time dealing with a breeder so perhaps I was too annoying or something!!!!! :uhoh:


----------



## MyBentley

Laurie, I can see why you were frustrated. You persevered and ended up with a good situation; but I think a number of people would have been turned off and found some other route to get a puppy.


----------



## goldhaven

MyBentley said:


> Laurie, I can see why you were frustrated. You persevered and ended up with a good situation; but I think a number of people would have been turned off and found some other route to get a puppy.


It is very sad, but I agree with this. Some of those breeders are the ones that are keeping BYB in business. 
I, too, am glad that you persevered and I know that you will be very happy that you did.


----------



## Megora

Laurie said:


> So, just out of curiosity.....was I doing something wrong? Normally when I contacted them, I introduced myself, explained my situation (ie. I had 3 Goldens - one of which has been diagnosed with hemangio, etc.), told them what I was looking for (ie. male) and that we planned on doing obedience and agility with them. I always ended it with "look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience". I just wanted them to be assured that I was interested in their dogs and knew what I was looking for. Like I said, this is the first time dealing with a breeder so perhaps I was too annoying or something!!!!! :uhoh:


Laurie did you name drop? Or give them an idea of where you are training your dogs, who you know...? 

I'm going to guess that they may have thought you have your hands full and might not be as desirable a home as one with fewer dogs. Considering you do train your dogs and could give a name of a trainer and/or club, that would show how committed you are? Planning to do obedience and agility isn't the same as actually having a track record of doing the training with your current dogs. I know people who have big plans when they get puppies but don't actually do anything beyond puppy class. 

I'm glad you found a breeder and will have a very busy July...  Just maybe throwing out a possibility as to why you didn't get responses? 

You are a nice person and your dogs are beautiful - and obviously in a GREAT home, but I'll wager that you probably freaked people out when you put it out there that you are a pet home with 3 dogs looking for a 4th.


----------



## ckshin05

goldhaven said:


> It is very sad, but I agree with this. Some of those breeders are the ones that are keeping BYB in business.
> I, too, am glad that you persevered and I know that you will be very happy that you did.


 
Mind you I am going to fight tooth and nail for a year to get a golden retriever from a proper breeder for a year. If the frustration takes over and arrogance is returned. I might just have to select another breed. I have been patient for 20 years. Some point chasing after the golden has to end. I know some of you say "NEVER!" But for the past 2 years I have been hitting road blocks. 1st year I'm glad I hit it cause I was moving around alot and not good for a puppy. but now that things have settled. I'm hoping I don't get so frustrated.


----------



## Laurie

Megora said:


> Laurie did you name drop? Or give them an idea of where you are training your dogs, who you know...?
> 
> I'm going to guess that they may have thought you have your hands full and might not be as desirable a home as one with fewer dogs. Considering you do train your dogs and could give a name of a trainer and/or club, that would show how committed you are? Planning to do obedience and agility isn't the same as actually having a track record of doing the training with your current dogs. I know people who have big plans when they get puppies but don't actually do anything beyond puppy class.
> 
> I'm glad you found a breeder and will have a very busy July...  Just maybe throwing out a possibility as to why you didn't get responses?
> 
> You are a nice person and your dogs are beautiful - and obviously in a GREAT home, but I'll wager that you probably freaked people out when you put it out there that you are a pet home with 3 dogs looking for a 4th.


I actually did explain (in my application) where I took my guys for obedience and many of the breeders are familiar with my trainer as he is also a fellow Golden owner who does alot of field/performance work with his dogs. 

I did wonder myself if some of the breeders thought maybe I had "too many dogs" but the ones who did respond said "it is apparent you love the breed and would provide a good home". I even sent pictures of my guys doing agility to a couple of them! 

As frustrating as some of it was, it will all work out in the end.  I knew what I wanted in a puppy and would have kept looking until I found it. Thankfully this puppy has what I want!! Unfortunately by the time puppy comes home I may not have 4 dogs.....but hopefully that's not the case.


----------



## hvgoldens4

ckshin05 said:


> Less than friendly. Like asking questions then not returning emails. Answering with snide remarks to questions you may ask. Like I asked if she would have a litter this winter? The person responded whenever the dog is in heat. I'm like that is logical but really doesn't answer my question.


 
I realize that this is probably not the answer you want to hear, but as breeders we have absolutely no control over when the girls come in season. So, the answer a lot of times is "she will be bred when she comes into season". It isn't a snide remark and it isn't meant to be. Unfortunately, it is just the truth.

The girls may "typically" cycle every 7 months or 8 months but is also then isn't uncommon for them to go beyond that and some go over by months. Then when you have given a timeframe of when you "expect" things to happen and they don't happen in that specified time period, you get nasty emails back from people saying that "we wanted a dog at such and such time and you said she was going to bred at this time".......if only it were that easy.

Paramount here is that a puppy is a living, breathing creature. Puppies are not like walking into Wal-Mart. We cannot take one down from the shelf because you want one at this time because it is best for you.

Most girls haven't ever read the books written on heat cycles, pregnancies, etc. They do things in their own time and when they are darned good and ready! 

We do breed when the girls come in season and so that is the correct answer.


----------



## ckshin05

hvgoldens4 said:


> I realize that this is probably not the answer you want to hear, but as breeders we have absolutely no control over when the girls come in season. So, the answer a lot of times is "she will be bred when she comes into season". It isn't a snide remark and it isn't meant to be. Unfortunately, it is just the truth.
> 
> The girls may "typically" cycle every 7 months or 8 months but is also then isn't uncommon for them to go beyond that and some go over by months. Then when you have given a timeframe of when you "expect" things to happen and they don't happen in that specified time period, you get nasty emails back from people saying that "we wanted a dog at such and such time and you said she was going to bred at this time".......if only it were that easy.
> 
> Paramount here is that a puppy is a living, breathing creature. Puppies are not like walking into Wal-Mart. We cannot take one down from the shelf because you want one at this time because it is best for you.
> 
> Most girls haven't ever read the books written on heat cycles, pregnancies, etc. They do things in their own time and when they are darned good and ready!
> 
> We do breed when the girls come in season and so that is the correct answer.



I do understand what most breeders are saying, but when you just post that "when she is in heat." I feel that I'm the idiot, and I'm just questioning about what time can you best assume your girl is in heat. If not I'll go somewhere else. For me it is just insulting to think that I'm asking and you give a brief response and making me feel bad. I'm asking as an unexperienced person. And I understand a pup is a living breathing person. A friend and a confidant that I'm searching for.


----------



## MikaTallulah

ckshin05 said:


> I do understand what most breeders are saying, but when you just post that "when she is in heat." I feel that I'm the idiot, and I'm just questioning about what time can you best assume your girl is in heat. If not I'll go somewhere else. For me it is just insulting to think that I'm asking and you give a brief response and making me feel bad. I'm asking as an unexperienced person. And I understand a pup is a living breathing person. A friend and a confidant that I'm searching for.


Great thing come to those that wait. I found Lucky's breeder and then waited over a year for his mother to be bred and then for him to be born 1.5 years after the breeder was found. 

You will have 10-15 years with your pooch so in the broad picture a year is a drop in the bucket. Pick your breeder then wait for your puppy- IMO. If the right breeder has a puppy available quickly great but if not oh well.


----------



## hvgoldens4

ckshin05 said:


> I do understand what most breeders are saying, but when you just post that "when she is in heat." I feel that I'm the idiot, and I'm just questioning about what time can you best assume your girl is in heat. If not I'll go somewhere else. For me it is just insulting to think that I'm asking and you give a brief response and making me feel bad. I'm asking as an unexperienced person. And I understand a pup is a living breathing person. A friend and a confidant that I'm searching for.


 
But there is no best assumption and again, this is when I get emails saying, "but you said".......so I won't give a time table for breedings any longer. I have been breeding for 15 years. 

We have been expecting one of our girls in season for over 6 weeks-nothing. We have a girl coming in this week to be bred to one of our boys-she "should" have been in season 3 months ago. Last summer, a girl we were expecting in season in Septmeber came in season in June and another one who should have come in season in May didn't come in season until October. Really, if a breeder owns more than one girl-they do this on their own time so no time table really can be given.


If a breeder just writes back "when she is in heat" with nothing else and did not specify any other information previously, I obviously don't agree with such communications and you would be best looking elsewhere. I honestly don't know why they would have bothered to respond.

I also agree with what Shalva had posted and you would not believe the number of emails that I get asking about upcoming breedings(they are posted on the website) and asking if we will have puppies this summer(again, no-this is posted on the website), how much are your puppies(again this is on the website in BOLD print to make it that much easier to find)

Most breeders have put quite a bit of time and effort into their websites and keeping them up to date. They are not going to take someone seriously that isn't going to take the time to even look at the website.


----------



## sterregold

This is where I am now with Breeze--thankfully the people wanting her puppies with Trooper are looking for something specific and are willing to wait for when Breeze decides it will happen! She should have been in season last October but did not come in (lucky for me as that was when she finished her MH). She waited until late February to come in by which time it was too late--I was already expecting a litter with another girl, and she would have still had babies when hunt test season began here--so now we are waiting until the next season. It COULD be as early as August (if she wanted to screw with me and miss ouir National Master) but that is as close as I can get to predicting.

Like others have said it is better to find the breeder you want to work with and wait for the litter, rather than try to find a litter to fit a time frame because the girls set their own agendas!!


----------



## sterregold

Laurie said:


> So, just out of curiosity.....was I doing something wrong? Normally when I contacted them, I introduced myself, explained my situation (ie. I had 3 Goldens - one of which has been diagnosed with hemangio, etc.), told them what I was looking for (ie. male) and that we planned on doing obedience and agility with them. I always ended it with "look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience". I just wanted them to be assured that I was interested in their dogs and knew what I was looking for. Like I said, this is the first time dealing with a breeder so perhaps I was too annoying or something!!!!! :uhoh:


Not necessarily--the one who accused you of wanting to breed--that sounds like someone who had had a bad experience. Happened to one of my friends here who sold a pup to someone who claimed they just wanted to show for fun and then as soon as the dog hit 2y.o. she got bombarded with messages asking her to lift the non-breeding (in CKC you can show on limited). She is very suspicious now of inquiries from a distance.

For the others who did not get back to you, if they had information posted on their site that basically answered your questions or indicated that their litter plans did not fit with what you requested, then they may simply have figured that the information was there for you. If they asked you to follow a procedure, like a questionnaire, and you did not, that could also make them leery. And if it was all via email, your message may simply have gone astray in cyberspace--in Canada I know that there are often difficulties between Cogeco and Sympatico addresses as we have had some members of my retriever club BOD get messages and others not, depending on who their service provider is!


----------



## Jennifer1

When I was talking to breeders I did get a response something along the lines of, we are planning a pairing between dog x and dog y sometime this spring If she comes into heat. I even got a reply from one breeder saying they were canceling their plans for a breeding because she hadn't come into heat yet and if they bred her any later she wouldn't be in condition for the fall shows.
Also, NONE of the breeders I looked into had prices listed on their websites, I actually wish they would! 
The breeder I ended up going with was very responsive to me. She even does a phone chat/interview instead of filling out an application. She feels she gets a better feel for a person that way.


----------



## sterregold

I only recently decided to put the puppy price for the litter on my website--no surprises that way and people looking know if the pups are in their budget. It is also good feedback for me--if I get an inquiry that says they have been looking at my site and then they want to know price when it is clearly stated, it is rather telling!


----------



## Megora

sterregold said:


> I only recently decided to put the puppy price for the litter on my website--no surprises that way and people looking know if the pups are in their budget.


Thanks for doing that - and I wish more breeders would put dollar amounts out there on their websites.

It's so _awkward_ contacting somebody who you think is selling puppies for the average price and finding out that because of the litter or times, the price is actually higher than what you can afford right on the spot or out of your comfort zone. This happened to me when I was looking around before finding Jacks. :bowl:

It's why I think you have to ask about the price in the first contact or before you _really_ get into interviewing the breeder. And of course I feel uncomfortable asking about costs too because some breeders say they don't like being asked. :uhoh:


----------



## Tahnee GR

I put my puppy price right in my introductory email, which is sent out following the initial contact with a potential puppy purchaser. I also put it on my listing in the AKC Classifieds section.

It does help, so people know upfront what the purchase price will be.


----------



## ckshin05

The price is okay and all. I know the ball park of how much it cost to purchase this gorgeous beauties. It is the deposit that gets me in a rut. A lot of breeders say they want a deposit but never put down how much they want. I don't mind putting down 80% or70% or even 60%. I just need to know how much you want me to deposit. To show that I'm serious about it.

Also is it odd to have puppy dreams? Like multiple dreams about your future puppy and how much fun and difficulties your going to have? ha ha.


----------



## sterregold

ckshin05 said:


> The price is okay and all. I know the ball park of how much it cost to purchase this gorgeous beauties. It is the deposit that gets me in a rut. A lot of breeders say they want a deposit but never put down how much they want. I don't mind putting down 80% or70% or even 60%. I just need to know how much you want me to deposit. To show that I'm serious about it.
> 
> Also is it odd to have puppy dreams? Like multiple dreams about your future puppy and how much fun and difficulties your going to have? ha ha.


Not odd at all--once a breeding has happened I sometimes have dreams about how many she is going to have, and what they will look like, and sometimes into the future with one of them joining the pack!


----------



## Megora

ckshin05 said:


> The price is okay and all. I know the ball park of how much it cost to purchase this gorgeous beauties. It is the deposit that gets me in a rut. A lot of breeders say they want a deposit but never put down how much they want. I don't mind putting down 80% or70% or even 60%. I just need to know how much you want me to deposit. To show that I'm serious about it.
> .


I'd plan on putting down half if the puppy is already born and you definitely are going to go home with that puppy.

I think if you are putting a deposit on a litter that hasn't been born yet, then you might be putting down 10 percent?


----------



## Laurie

The breeder I'm working with has only asked for a $100.00 deposit and the puppies are born. I think I'm going to send her half of the asking price regardless.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

sterregold said:


> *I only recently decided to put the puppy price for the litter on my website--no surprises that way and people looking know if the pups are in their budget.* It is also good feedback for me--if I get an inquiry that says they have been looking at my site and then they want to know price when it is clearly stated, it is rather telling!


That's awesome. Because there was a thread awhile back where breeders were insinuating that if people asked the price then that kind of turned the breeder off and that the prospective buyer was more interested in the price than the welfare of the pups.


----------



## Laurie

Wyatt's mommy said:


> That's awesome. Because there was a thread awhile back where breeders were insinuating that if people asked the price then that kind of turned the breeder off and that the prospective buyer was more interested in the price than the welfare of the pups.


 
I thought this too so I didn't even bother, until the other day (when she asked for the deposit), to ask what the price of the puppy was, although I had a pretty good idea what is was and I was dead on.


----------



## goldhaven

I looked at a breeders website that said, "if you have to ask the price of my puppies, you can not afford one". I naturally assumed that she was right. I couldn't afford one, so I moved on to the next breeder.


----------



## Wyatt's mommy

goldhaven said:


> I looked at a breeders website that said, "if you have to ask the price of my puppies, you can not afford one". I naturally assumed that she was right. I couldn't afford one, so I moved on to the next breeder.


Even if I could have afforded one I still would have moved to the next breeder.


----------



## pmcadams

11 yrs ago I looked in the classified ads and there were two Goldens... one was affordable from a back yard breeder and one was rather expensive from a kennel with health guarantees. Not knowing about Golden heath issues, I went to the BRB. Only a year later my girl was laying on a table getting her first total hip replacement. 6 months after that she was getting the other one replaced. At 10 years, she had crippling arthritis. Wanna guess which dog would have been the less expensive ?

If money is an issue, contact your local Golden Retriever Rescue Society. There is one close to just about everyone. Most of them have the dogs medically examined and make sure dogs have no issues before homing them, and I have known many of them to have young dogs if that's what you want.


----------



## vjm1639

I don't know where you are in Tennessee but there is a terrific Golden Rescue group that may have a perfect rescue dog for you. You might want to give them a try and give a pup or dog a home that really needs one. They are just wonderful. Here is their contact info.... They have a great Facebook site too and you can see some of their adorable fur babies.


ADOPT A GOLDEN, KNOXVILLE


PO Box 11822
Knoxville, TN 37939

Phone1 (865) 940-0688Email[email protected]Websitehttp://www.adoptagoldenknoxville.org


----------



## MercyMom

*Trying to contact local Golden Retriever Club*

I can certainly understand Laurie's sentiment. I contacted many many breeders before finally deciding on a breeder. It is a trying process and patience is required if you are going to get the right puppy. 

When I first contacted my local Golden Retriever club, The Potomac Valley Golden Retriever Club for a list of referrals, the person for puppy referral wrote back and told me to look on their website for the list of referrals instead of sending me a list of referrals. Not wanting to be obnoxious, instead of saying what I wanted to say that I could not see a list of breeders, I wrote back and said that this will certainly help and thanked her. So I decided to keep looking on my own. I also wrote to two puppy referral people of a club that was out of state, and neither of them responded. 

I noticed that most of the breeders that required a questionnaire did not respond to me except one. The breeders that conducted oral interviews on the other hand, approved me. 

I finally found a breeder on my own that was a member of my local Golden Retriever club and was an AKC Breeder of Merit. I barely got a pup from her by the skin of my teeth.

I would like to be able to attend local events that my local Golden Retriever club offers to get to know some of these people better and to get them to know me and my dog. In order to become a member of the club, you have to get approvals from two people on your form. Right now, The Potomac Valley Golden Retriever Club is having a K9 Olympics on July 21st. I have e-mailed a RSVP to both of the people to RSVP to and have gotten no response from either one. What gives here? Are my communication skills really that much of a turnoff to Golden Retriever enthusiasts?


----------



## obrienwspt

Not that this really adds anything to this 23 page discussion, but my father-in-law has a great saying.

"The cheapest part of owning a dog is buying the dog." So you might as well save up to spend money up front to save thousands on the back end. If you can't do that then go rescue a deserving dog that needs a good home.


----------



## Jessy jess

*breeder*

hi!
Im in the process of locating a responsible breeder and i'm from Puerto Rico so it's a little bit difficult for me. Does somebody have any tips on what type of certifications I need to be in the look out for?


----------



## Maggie'sVoice

lol this thread is from 2012... imagine what this would like today as in costs!? Major sticker shock compared to what they were talking about then for backyard breeders at $300. Today that number starts at $800


----------



## Prism Goldens

I know a breeder IN Guaynabo.. I will send you a PM


----------



## Sweet Girl

Jessy jess said:


> hi!
> Im in the process of locating a responsible breeder and i'm from Puerto Rico so it's a little bit difficult for me. Does somebody have any tips on what type of certifications I need to be in the look out for?



Hi and welcome. You might get more answers specific to your location if you start a new thread. Go to the top of this page (the Choosing a GR Breeder and Puppy page) and look for Start a New Thread. I haven't seen many threads about PR, but, hey, Prism already has a breeder for you! :smile2:


----------



## Prism Goldens

They're at a real disadvantage to be CoE correct there- my friend Monica sends her dogs here for their clearances, and now that they have a real live ophthalmologist there for animals, she can stay compliant. She usually shows there till they are 'ready' and then sends them here to finish. Obviously any field titles have to be done here, too. Her girl is here working on her Junior right now.


----------



## Jessy jess

Sweet Girl said:


> Hi and welcome. You might get more answers specific to your location if you start a new thread. Go to the top of this page (the Choosing a GR Breeder and Puppy page) and look for Start a New Thread. I haven't seen many threads about PR, but, hey, Prism already has a breeder for you! :smile2:


 

Hi, thanks for the suggestion. To tell you the truth I'm still trying to figure out how the forum works. :grin2:


----------



## yrojas11

Hi, I have been looking for reputable breeders who have available pups. I live in Chicago, IL. Do you have any referrals?
I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks,
Yvette


----------



## Goldens&Friesians

yrojas11 said:


> Hi, I have been looking for reputable breeders who have available pups. I live in Chicago, IL. Do you have any referrals?
> I would greatly appreciate it.
> Thanks,
> Yvette


Try searching for the thread 2018 Midwest Breeder List. Its a list of breeders who are known to follow the code of ethics. Of course, always do your homework and double check clearances on OFA, but you should be pretty safe with the breeders on the list. Also, if your time frame for a puppy is "right now," realize that most reputable breeders have their puppies sold before a litter is even born, and often before a litter is even bred. Rarely do reputable breeders have puppies available "right now"-it usually only happens if a buyer would back out at the last minute or if the litter was much larger than expected. You are usually looking at getting on a wait list for a puppy and waiting at least a few months, sometimes even up to a year or more for the puppy to be bred, born, and then they won't go home til at least 8 weeks of age. So just be prepared to have to wait a bit, and good luck with your search!


----------

