# Building a Field Golden (Part III)



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I love that your pup's name is Rooster- there is a dog I admire who is another Rooster: High Times Run'n The Roost. 

It is very hard to be a beginner and to be accepted into a field training group- so these preliminary puppy training tips are incredibly valuable. And it is amazing how right you are about choosing a working line; our Topbrass puppy was grouped with all labs in our puppy field class, while our show bred dog was definitely the least athletic dog out there. In the end though, the show pup with two Am CH parents and no performance titles in his pedigree is honest, hard-working and a fabulous marker. He will do his JH/WC in the spring, and truly loves it. It's a lovely surprise to see how his working instincts are very much intact.

As a novice, I am queasy about FF and CC, but keep it to myself!


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Good tip on the white vs orange... I use bumpers (but we're just playing) only at the beach, so color seems not to matter, but in grass that makes perfect sense!


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Regarding FF: I think the best overall explanation of why we do it as well as explanation of how to do it is in an article by John and Amy Dahl called Force Fetch without the collar. The articles are also part of their book "The ten minute retriever." 
The articles can be found on the web by doing a search.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

I'm enjoying reading about this. My puppy has some field lines in him and I'd like to see if I can at least get a JH on him. I'm pretty clueless when it comes to all of this. We bought a couple of white bumpers just last week and introduced them to the dogs. Initially they both preferred to bring them back by the strings, but we're working on it. (My older guy has no field in his lines, but loves to retrieve, so I figured I might as well work him since I'm working the puppy.)

Thanks for taking the time to write this up.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hello Klamuth Gold!
Can I pick your brain a bit? Please???
How about a 21 month old golden who has never done any field work at all, but I'm interested in starting him in the pursuit of a JH. Not hunting, just the JH title, since I don't hunt!
He's got an extremely good obedience background (titled thru CDX and U-CDX, *almost* ready for UD) and is solid on retrieving on flat, over high, etc. His stays and heeling are rock solid. Heeling can be sloppy, but the concept is solid.
He will "mark" for a directed retrieve, but this would be only 20-40 feet away.
He LOVES to fetch anything in motion (typical golden of course!) and is very very birdy. He stands and vibrates when he sees birds either in the yard or on wing.
What would you suggest I do to begin getting him ready for the JH? I don't have the faintest clue where to start. 
Should I get an E-collar for him?
BTW, I have 10 acres and am surrounded by corn fields (i.e, pheasants!) so I do have plenty of room to train him.
Thanks much in advance for any advice you can give me!
Barb


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Love the questions and I will attempt to respond tonight or tomarrow. I must head off to work now.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> BTW, I have 10 acres and am surrounded by corn fields (i.e, pheasants!) so I do have plenty of room to train him.
> Thanks much in advance for any advice you can give me!
> Barb


Hi Barb
Hope I am not out of place answering some of these. If I am I am sorry. 
Have you looked into joining a local Golden club? I am sure you would find members there that are interested and do field work. And many times they are more than willing to help out beginners. Not to mention your property sounds like you might make a new bunch of friends. Peolpe are always looking for new grounds to train on. 
As for your dog's age it should not be a problem seeing you have a great obedience foundation to work from. I would think a JH would be very doable and who knows you may decide to go further with him. I never did any field work with any of my dog till I started Keeper at about 2 years of age. 

Here is the link to the Illinois club
http://www.goldenretrieverclubofillinoisinc.org/


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## DUSTYRD2 (Feb 28, 2007)

Hi Barb
I agree with AmbikaGR - join a local golden club and you'll likely find a lot of people involved in field that will welcome you,
Your dogs age should be of no consequence either. Our Dusty was over 5 when we started field training. He earned his WC & JH and was well on his way towards his SH when he went to the bridge. If the instinct is there, it's there - the rest is just training.
Good luck and have fun!!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> Some thoughts: I often see people introducing puppies to retrieving by using a flame orange bumper. These folks dont understand that dogs see colors much differently than we do. To us, the flame orange stands out like a sore thumb. To the dog, it is a shade of gray and must be about the same shade of gray as grass. I have had very experienced field dogs nearly standing on flame orange bumpers without seeing them. Puppies need to be introduced to retrieving with white bumpers. Black can be acceptable too. The bottom line is that these two colors contrast with the surroundings and are much easier for the pup to see.


I have always been fairly conventional with bumpers. Generally white, but I have white and black for marks where the background is tough for just white. And orange basically only for blinds.

However, I was watching the Bill Hillman DVD (which I would recommend to anyone) and he prefers to use the orange bumpers for young pups. I have always liked white so they (especially young dogs can see it and run to it). Bill likes orange specifically because it is harder to see. He likes a young dog to mark, but to learn to use his nose to find something when he gets in the area and thinks that orange helps.

Just thought I would toss that out for folks to chew on. Thanks for adding to the content here for us field folks.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Barb,

I will throw in my $0.02 to some of your questions. Joining a local GR club or general retriever club (AKC, HRC, NAHRA) would be a good start. My GR club has training for field newbies, most of whom would just like to give it a try and perhaps earn a JH.

With your dog's obedience background, you have the hard part down. Basically, all a dog needs to do for a junior test is heel, sit and go pick up four birds and bring them back (which is often the toughest for dogs new to field).

If your goal is just a JH, you do not need a lot of fancy gear and don't have to rush out to buy an ecollar, but if you get bitten by the bug, and want to move beyond that, you might find it a good investment.

With a little time and patience you two will be succesful, especially if you can get some training partners to help. As Ambika points out, if you reach out, you will probably get lots of help in exchange for being able to use your place as training grounds from time to time.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi Hank,
You are not at all out of place!!!! 
I appreciate any and all advice!!
I'm glad to hear that it's not to late to start him on some field stuff, I thought it might be a welcome break for both of us. He just seems to "have it in him". 
Thanks for the link to the IL golden retriever club. Will send PM re the club.
Barb




AmbikaGR said:


> Hi Barb
> Hope I am not out of place answering some of these. If I am I am sorry.
> Have you looked into joining a local Golden club? I am sure you would find members there that are interested and do field work. And many times they are more than willing to help out beginners. Not to mention your property sounds like you might make a new bunch of friends. Peolpe are always looking for new grounds to train on.
> As for your dog's age it should not be a problem seeing you have a great obedience foundation to work from. I would think a JH would be very doable and who knows you may decide to go further with him. I never did any field work with any of my dog till I started Keeper at about 2 years of age.
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks so much for you $.03 (inflation). I'm really encouraged by your response, at this point I'm just interested in the JH, but I keep getting bitten by bugs, so there's no telling where it'll end!
I don't think he'll have any problem bringing birds back, he's got a rock solid retrieve on pretty much anything so I'm excited to get started!
Barb




Tatnall said:


> Barb,
> 
> I will throw in my $0.02 to some of your questions. Joining a local GR club or general retriever club (AKC, HRC, NAHRA) would be a good start. My GR club has training for field newbies, most of whom would just like to give it a try and perhaps earn a JH.
> 
> ...


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

*Wow, what wonderful dialogue. This is good.*

I still have intentions of answering questions but work has wiped me out. It was a good day but a rather looooong one. I want to post, but yet want to be somewhat comprehendable.

For now: 
-A JH goal is a fine goal to set. And yes it is very attainable.

-e-collars may or may not be necessary. I dont encourage rushing out to buy one. My response would be to maybe get involved in a group to see where you want to go. A JH and a SH can be done without an e-collar. The SH would involve a little more tennis shoe work without a collar(perhaps explained later). Perhaps the e-collar discussion could be a whole new thread. I'll chew on it.

-Take some time to pick a "program." What I mean by this is that there are some wonderful programs out there to follow. The problem that I see is that I have seen some folks jump from program to program and the dog gets confused and that is where the problems begin. Talk to some folks that you may be training with and see what they are following. Perhaps that would be a good program to follow since they have already been there and could be helpful in understanding the "what next."

note: I have a good friend who has a golden girl out of a very fine field breeding. The age of his girl and my Amber are nearly the same. However my friend was taking "advice" from anyone who would give it and really had nothing to follow. This little dog has spent much of its last 2 1/2 years very confused. She has a leg or two on a Senior title but really should be well into Masters (if not completely done). I am certain had this fellow picked a program he would be done by now. _Yes I politely tried to help, but somehow my thoughts were less important than those of another that he admired. I still cringe when he brings that girl to the line_.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Excellent advice on the "program". I'm having a few issues with that in obedience, now that we are to the utility level....too much advice...I know exactly where you're coming from...
Barb




Klamath Gold said:


> *Wow, what wonderful dialogue. This is good.*
> 
> I still have intentions of answering questions but work has wiped me out. It was a good day but a rather looooong one. I want to post, but yet want to be somewhat comprehendable.
> 
> ...


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Hello Klamuth Gold!
> Can I pick your brain a bit? Please???
> How about a 21 month old golden who has never done any field work at all, but I'm interested in starting him in the pursuit of a JH. Not hunting, just the JH title, since I don't hunt!
> He's got an extremely good obedience background (titled thru CDX and U-CDX, *almost* ready for UD) and is solid on retrieving on flat, over high, etc. His stays and heeling are rock solid. Heeling can be sloppy, but the concept is solid.
> ...


YOU DONT NEED TO HUNT TO ENJOY HUNT TESTS! With the work you have already done I would say that a JH or even a SH is very much attainable for your dog. I would even say that this can be done without the e-collar.

Even though you dont hunt, you still will need to practice safe gun handling skills and will need to practice with dead birds and eventually with live birds.

The best way to do some of this, and what I recommend below, is to do exactly what others have mentioned and to participate in training days put on by local clubs. I would also encourage you to watch a JH test to see exactly what goes on.

The JH is quite attainable with practice and patience. It sounds like he loves the birds and has the drive. Remember that the JH is 4 single marks and the dog can be lightly restrained. The marks typically are less than 100 yards. The distance is easy. Fighting the other "factors" is what makes it a little more difficult. 

First I would start out with some very simple retrieves in very light to no cover. This is drill is done with dead birds or bumpers.

Next introduce the "gunner". This is simply having someone throw the dummy for you. Start out with the gunner throwing _slightly_ in so that the dog does not have to run past the gunner. On subsequent sessions have the gunner square the throws and then eventually throw to 45 degrees behind. 

In each session I would start the dog at the range you know your dog can easily do (35? 50?) and then as the dog is en route to the fall, you run backwards ten or so yards. You then receive the dog farther back than what you started. The next mark is thrown while you are at this new line. By doing this you are gradually building distance. The gunner is still throwing to the same place but you are moving back (make sense?). You are gradually teaching the dog to push farther, but yet the dog is getting confidence at the same time. Eventually you will have your dog going to 125 yards or so.

Next start the same type of drill over introducing some light cover. You will want to start short and extend longer. This should go quicker than the first drill even though you are complicating it a little.

Once this is going fairly well, you will want to move to new field drills. You no longer will want to have gunners throw to the same location. Eventually, you and your dog will stay at the same line while the "gunner" walks to new locations each time for a new throw. The simplest way is to have the gunner throw a mark. As the dog is returning, the gunner moves over to near where the mark fell. When the retrieve is made, and the dog is ready, have the gunner thow another mark and repeat the whole process. This process is called walking singles. The dog gets a new retrieve each time.

When the dog gets solid on land with different types of cover, one can move to water.

My description here is not to present a training program, but to give you a "place to start." I still encourage you to shop around to find a program that is right for you. Once you have found one, stick with it. Bouncing around to different training programs will not do you any good.

I really hope this helps.

PS. A good book to look at is James Spencers book Retriever Training Drills for Marking.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> YOU DONT NEED TO HUNT TO ENJOY HUNT TESTS!


This is an important point that is often missed and sometimes the hunters involved in retriever games make it sound like you are not welcome if you are not a hunter (typically on message boards, they are usually very welcoming in real life).

Just as an example, I came to retriever games from hunting. I went my first hunt test just for giggles and to socialize a young pup about fifteen years ago. My goal was to learn a little more to help train my hunting dog. I was blown away by the dog work. Even though I had hunted with retrievers all my life, in about an hour I had completely new standards for what a good hunting dog should be.

As I got more and more involved, I found that I hunted less. I still hunt and take my dogs hunting but found that I enjoyed the dog work more than the actual hunting. As I got more involved with working at tests, shooting and training, I started to hunt less. I still hunt a good bit but to be honest, other than a few traditional hunts with my friends, I would rather train dogs. This is not uncommon. I think it helps a HT judge to hunt, but IMO there is no requirement to be a hunter to be an excellent judge and absolutely no reason someone can't enjoy the games and be an excellent trainer and handler even if they have never hunted.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for the reply, I'm getting all excited about this!
I will need to locate some training days and trials in my area. I'm sure there must be quite a few if I look around.
Where I live, everyone has shotguns and shoots. A couple of my neighbors are state certified gun trainers or whatever the proper expression for that would be. One of my goofy neighbors came within a few inches of one of my propane tanks with a stray shot, but that's another story. Tonight there will be a LOT of gunshots going off at midnight around here!
What would you consider "light cover"? The boy loves to retrieve sticks out of the alfalfa field, which is about waist high. Never tried it with a bumper, but he's pretty good about finding the sticks. Now this is only from about 25 feet away, the limit of my throwing arm, but would that be considered "light cover", or would it have to be heavier than that?
As far as the water retrieves, how are those done? Is that similar to when I stand at the edge of the pond and whip a stick into the water for him to go get, but from farther away? Are those also done from about 100 yards away?
There's just so much to learn, and it all sounds like so much fun for both him and me!
As far as a program, is the book you suggested a "program"? Sorry if I sound dumb, but this is so new.
Oh and another real silly question, how many bumpers should I go buy?????
Thanks again!







Klamath Gold said:


> YOU DONT NEED TO HUNT TO ENJOY HUNT TESTS! With the work you have already done I would say that a JH or even a SH is very much attainable for your dog. I would even say that this can be done without the e-collar.
> 
> Even though you dont hunt, you still will need to practice safe gun handling skills and will need to practice with dead birds and eventually with live birds.
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, I hope that's going to be the case around here! I do find most "dog people" to be extremely friendly and welcoming. But I can't help wondering how they'll react to some goofy gal showing up in pink pants, high heels, and a dog with a rhinestone collar ready to retrieve.
Ok, just kidding. One thinks of Jeff Foxworthy's sketch on taking his wife hunting....
Barb




Tatnall said:


> This is an important point that is often missed and sometimes the hunters involved in retriever games make it sound like you are not welcome if you are not a hunter (typically on message boards, they are usually very welcoming in real life).
> 
> .


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

Jumping in with some advice and support....

You can do a lot of the ground work and basics with tennis balls and a chucker. Bumpers would be ideal, but I have used what I have handy (and more than two of at the moment). With my old boy I would have him sit and I started with one ball and him waiting for the command to go, then bring it back. Then two, he had to remember the first, get the second back and then go again. Then three. Then four. It was on grass at the time but those balls weren't easy to see at a distance. I also did a game of dropping a ball every five feet in a row, and having him learn to go out ahead of me to get a ball, longer and longer distances. Had him sit and placed a ball on either side of him ten feet away, went ahead in front and did directed retrieves (like utility but gradually on a bigger scale). 

Then I got a chance to take a field class with my young golden, and decided to take him along too as I could work two dogs. He had never seen a duck, was afraid of fireworks and thunder but away we went. He did fine with all that I asked him to do. When he realized the gunshot meant a bumper was tossed for him, he didn't care about the noise. Wasn't sure about ducks but when he was told to retrieve, he did. He ended up doing a triple mark on the last class with speed and 'flyball turns' on each duck - no hunting around the area, he marked perfectly. He did better than my young dog AND he was lame for half the classes too.

I should mention he was a BORDER COLLIE - so no excuses as to a golden not having that retrieve drive (the lab people putting on the class had to take back a lot of their comments about him not being 'bred' to retrieve and therefore not as able to work birds).

You also don't need to start from puppyhood, it does give a head start but I like to let them be puppies, do some basics and then when the dog is ready, get to work on more. With my two year old that means now she's ready for more work, somehow the lightbulb went on in her little brain that she had to work with me instead of doing her own thing. Yes, she has a brother with four field titles on his name already, and a sister who hunts, but so far when we've been out to do birds she's done just fine with everything except one tough mark where she over ran it. She is very willing and fun to work with now that she's past the 'teen' thing and will do her performance/field/conformation pedigree proud (I hope).

Lana


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> But I can't help wondering how they'll react to some goofy gal showing up in pink pants, high heels, and a dog with a rhinestone collar ready to retrieve.


Wear whatever makes you comfortable (although at folks might lend you a darker colored jacket to cover up the pink) but do all us field golden folks a favor and leave the rhinestone collar at home. And, please, please do not show up with a golden in a bandanna. Lab folks assume that is what golden folks use instead of an ecollar


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Bender said:


> I should mention he was a BORDER COLLIE - so no excuses as to a golden not having that retrieve drive (the lab people putting on the class had to take back a lot of their comments about him not being 'bred' to retrieve and therefore not as able to work birds).


They are not allowed to run AKC tests, but about ten years ago when I was running NAHRA tests, there was a border collie that was quite accomplished. Don't know exactly what the title was, but it had at least a WR.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tatnall said:


> And, please, please do not show up with a golden in a bandanna. Lab folks assume that is what golden folks use instead of an ecollar


Lol- I hear you there! I have endured quite a few "bandana" comments from the lab crowd with good cheer on the outside. However, I don't have much patience for the anti- golden aspect of the field scene left ever since they made fun of one of the best show dogs of a generation, saying he was "overdone" when he has done more in his life, earned more titles in more venues, than any ten of the labs on the grounds at the time put together. It doesnt make sense to me for people to write post after post on retriever boards worrying about the greying of field trials and the desire for young competitors but then to be so clubby and unwelcoming to newcomers and disparaging of dual purpose goldens. Yes, I understand about labs and goldens who are too big to work, with little drive and flowing locks that drag down in water. Yes, I understand that only a handful of goldens can run field trials with the labs. However, it is great if a nice moderate show golden attains a SH in my mind. How does that hurt lab people? If I didnt work with a professional trainer and have a Topbrass pup, there is no way I would have dared to test the waters of field training. Maybe that is just Maine. . .


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Gosh I am enjoying this thread!
I am slowly getting up the nerve to call the retrieving club to ask about training days...

Boy Jill, I hope some day we can have the opportunity to work dogs together!
I would love to pick your brain!


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

I believe hotel4dogs asked what a good program was.

Mike Lardy has the Total Retriever series. It is probably the most commonly used program by field trialers and *hard core* hunt test enthusiasts. This is a bit much for those just wanting a JH or SH.

Evan Graham has the Smartwork series of books and videos. I like it but *it can be a bit tough to read*. However $25 gets you the first book and that will more than take you through enough training to get a SH. You can then buy the dvds for topics that arent explained well or are confusing. Generally, *this is the program I am following*. He can be found on other retriever forums from time to time. He currently is running a golden.

_It must be noted that the two above are both rooted in Rex Carrs philosophy. Rex is considered the Guru (and has since passed on). If you look at both programs they are actually quite similar. I am sure there are many that would argue with me... but hey its an opinion._

An old book that really isnt that bad is James Lamb Free's "Training the Retriever" This was written in the 50's and 60's. It was written before e-collars. His philosophies are antiquated (ex, not starting until a dog is a year old). However this book can be found on eBay for about $5 and really is not bad to have around for some reference. I used this book to train my first dog to a SH. Though I mention it, *this is not a primary program used really by anybody today.*

The "Ten Minute Retriever" by John and Amy Dahl is good. I believe Amy has a golden now or is about to get one. I believe these two put into words the best description of Force Fetch that can be found anywhere. She can be found on other retriever forums from time to time.

James Spencers works are good. *I think he does a good job of explaining stuff. * *He is a golden enthusiast*. Training Retrievers for Marshes and Meadows is the place to start with his stuff. He has subsequent books that are worth it as well. Retriever Training tests, Drills for Marking, Drills for blinds. I think many on this forum would like this approach.

I am running late for work.... again. There are more. *Please, anyone make comment on the above listed programs and/or post your own favorites*.

PS. Rooster is doing quite well. He did some neat little "gunner" thrown marks yesterday. I was impressed with his attitude and his GO.


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## kgiff (Jul 21, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> Gosh I am enjoying this thread!
> I am slowly getting up the nerve to call the retrieving club to ask about training days...


Liberty, I think you and I are in exactly the same place :wave:


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I too am so enjoying this thread even though DH and I no longer hunt. 
The bumper/dummy colors were really interesting to me. We used camo, orange and white in training with all our hunting dogs. White seemed to become gray quickly. Seems to me the dogs went mainly by scent instead of sight and I am far from an expert. Reading this thread brings back such good memories. Alittle regret that Max could have earned many titles if we (the humans) would have put in the time/energy.
Gunner too definitely has the retrieving sense and genius but has the loud noise issue as well as problem with strange dogs. : (


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

While I was posting the above, Ljilly28 was posting hers. I thought I needed to comment.

One of my hopes is that more golden folks get into the field games or at least learn to appreciate the field games for what they are. It must be noted that there are quite a few folks that look down on the golden in the field. Some of these folks can be jerks. I dont know how many times I heard the cat calls of "swampcollie" or "throw rug" or who knows what else. The fun part was at the end of the day my dog was still there to pick up that ribbon and theirs was on their way home!

BE BRAVE LITTLE GOLDEN SOLDIERS!

gotta get to work now


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> Lol- I hear you there! I have endured quite a few "bandana" comments from the lab crowd with good cheer on the outside. However, I don't have much patience for the anti- golden aspect of the field scene left ever since they made fun of one of the best show dogs of a generation, saying he was "overdone" when he has done more in his life, earned more titles in more venues, than any ten of the labs on the grounds at the time put together.


What dog are you talking about? Cotton? Expo?

As far as the golden comments, I have found it is rarely more than good natured kidding in real life but on message boards, cloaked by the interwebs, they can be nasty about it.

I don't buy into the whole 'JH and done' whine about goldens. Truth is most labs are the same way. If you complain about the numbers in JH from conformation or pet folks, the answer is simple: don't run. If you dog is so great, just run Masters. I encourage folks to try, even if their goal is only a JH. Some of those folks might be bitten by the bug and get serious. Some might start breeding for field traits in dogs that have excellent conformation. One day, we might see another dual champion. At worst, the retriever club makes a few extra bucks to keep running events.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> Mike Lardy has the Total Retriever series. It is probably the most commonly used program by field trialers and *hard core* hunt test enthusiasts. This is a bit much for those just wanting a JH or SH.


I am a Lardy fanboy. I have all his stuff and have been to several of his seminars as a handler and an observer. I basically follow his program--at least for the key elements. On his site, you can download a flow chart of his program http://www.totalretriever.com/tip47.htm

In my opinion (and that is what it is, so many will disagree) if you want to earn a JH, you need to work through the Introduction and start on the basics. In the Yard Sequence column, you need only the formal obedience, although many dogs will probably need hold and force fetch will make it easier (especially for a WC when you are more likely to get pigeons). In the Field Progression column, you really need only go as far as introduction to "require delivery to hand", although "steady with no lead" will make things easier.

For a SH, you will need to go through the whole basics (although the collar is optional). For a WCX probably the same, although you could get by with Force Fetch in the yard and the Field Progression only.

All of this is do-able for an amateur willing to do some work (watch dvds, etc in addition to training). Toughest to do as an amateur is swim-by because finding the right water is very difficult.


*Edit*

Reading this I wanted to clear up something. My thoughts on the minimum amount of work required to be able to get through JH was just that. When I wrote it, I was thinking of the earlier situation of an older dog with obedience experience who just wants to try to get a JH. I think it is valid for that, although many folks I train with would kill me if they knew this was the kind of advice I gave someone. 

However, this is called a training sequence for a reason and was developed by folks who know what they are doing and have learned hard lessons. It isn't really a menu. If you cut things short, ran JH and liked it and wanted to go farther, you might hurt yourself in the long run. Folks who are training for loftier goals don't think that way. The rule of thumb many follow is don't run a test until your dog is really ready to pass the next level. For example, I would not run a junior at the first point I thought my dog could pass. I would at a minimum get through to transition, when the dog could probably pass a senior before entering my first junior and might never run juniors at all. Same reason why most foks who want to be competitive in AA FTs don't run derbies. It is just an opportunity to mess up a lot of work you have done.

So, please take it at that--a description of what I think the bare minimum training that needs to be completed to get a JH and not any kind of opinion that there is any needless work in the flow chart.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up...
I personally dont have a big problem with folks that catcall in fun <makes me want to train more diligently before approaching the line>, BUT it sucks when youre not prepared mentally for the possibility that it might happen!





Klamath Gold said:


> While I was posting the above, Ljilly28 was posting hers. I thought I needed to comment.
> 
> One of my hopes is that more golden folks get into the field games or at least learn to appreciate the field games for what they are. It must be noted that there are quite a few folks that look down on the golden in the field. Some of these folks can be jerks. I dont know how many times I heard the cat calls of "swampcollie" or "throw rug" or who knows what else. The fun part was at the end of the day my dog was still there to pick up that ribbon and theirs was on their way home!
> 
> ...


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Tatnall wrote that we may someday have another dual champion. YES! The last one was Tigathoes Funky Farquar in 72 (I believe).

*There are rumours of one in the making.* Very good looking and very very talented male. I will not speak the name... until it is done.

There are hopes of another... his name is often mentioned in my threads and he is only 14 weeks old! We are trying, trying, trying. Cheer us on!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> Tatnall wrote that we may someday have another dual champion. YES! The last one was Tigathoes Funky Farquar in 72 (I believe).
> 
> *There are rumours of one in the making.*


It is truly an amazing feat. Heck, even Ch/MH is. But if you go to a FT and see how dominated they are not just by labs, but by black labs and how incredible the dog work is, it is almost scary. And most of the goldens would not do well in the conformation ring.

What the field folks don't understand is how incredibly competitive the conformation ring is for goldens. And at a FT, most dogs will do something that shows they are not the winner. In the show ring, the difference between the winner and every other dog is very small--I don't see how judges do it.

To top it off, the peak years for the show ring are the most important for training the advanced concepts required for FT success and it is tough to field train and try to keep the coat looking good (burrs probably count against you in the show ring). So, not only does it take an incredible dog, it takes an incredible owner--one with amazing dedication.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

http://www.amigold.com/sabre.html

The second to last paragraph about how much Sabre (Am. CH. Amigold On A Wing N A Prayer CD MH WCX VCX DDHF OS***.) had to travel/be away is an issue too. It is really hard to succeed in both venues without sending the dog away to a professional handler.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> While I was posting the above, Ljilly28 was posting hers. I thought I needed to comment.
> 
> One of my hopes is that more golden folks get into the field games or at least learn to appreciate the field games for what they are. It must be noted that there are quite a few folks that look down on the golden in the field. Some of these folks can be jerks. I dont know how many times I heard the cat calls of "swampcollie" or "throw rug" or who knows what else. The fun part was at the end of the day my dog was still there to pick up that ribbon and theirs was on their way home!
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

We have a member here that uses the name Swampcollie. I don't know if he has posted in this thread or not yet; but yes, he has Goldens and seems to love what you call field games.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I love the tennis ball idea! He is, of course, obsessed with tennis balls and we have a chuck-it by every door! But I never thought of throwing TWO, then having him go get each one. Of course, he'll probably pick both up at once 
Great idea, thanks!
I didn't start him younger because he already does 3 events, but the field stuff I'm sure will appeal to him more than anything else, and I feel I owe him that for as hard as he works for me in obedience and conformation. (Agility he loves!)



Bender said:


> Jumping in with some advice and support....
> 
> You can do a lot of the ground work and basics with tennis balls and a chucker. Bumpers would be ideal, but I have used what I have handy (and more than two of at the moment). With my old boy I would have him sit and I started with one ball and him waiting for the command to go, then bring it back. Then two, he had to remember the first, get the second back and then go again. Then three. Then four. It was on grass at the time but those balls weren't easy to see at a distance. I also did a game of dropping a ball every five feet in a row, and having him learn to go out ahead of me to get a ball, longer and longer distances. Had him sit and placed a ball on either side of him ten feet away, went ahead in front and did directed retrieves (like utility but gradually on a bigger scale).
> 
> ...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

does that mean his bathrobe and matching bunny slippers are out, too?
We board a lot of labs here at the pet hotel. I can understand them needing ecollars!




Tatnall said:


> Wear whatever makes you comfortable (although at folks might lend you a darker colored jacket to cover up the pink) but do all us field golden folks a favor and leave the rhinestone collar at home. And, please, please do not show up with a golden in a bandanna. Lab folks assume that is what golden folks use instead of an ecollar


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, I will need to track that down. Do you know the title of the first book? 
Glad to hear the little Rooster is doing so well now. It sounded like you were a bit disappointed before. 





Klamath Gold said:


> I believe hotel4dogs asked what a good program was.
> 
> Evan Graham has the Smartwork series of books and videos. I like it but *it can be a bit tough to read*. However $25 gets you the first book and that will more than take you through enough training to get a SH. You can then buy the dvds for topics that arent explained well or are confusing. Generally, *this is the program I am following*. He can be found on other retriever forums from time to time. He currently is running a golden.
> 
> PS. Rooster is doing quite well. He did some neat little "gunner" thrown marks yesterday. I was impressed with his attitude and his GO.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

At the end of the day, we each have to take our dog home and live with it. Having boarded TONS of labs and TONS of goldens, I'll go home and live with my golden any day.
When I take my dog to an obedience show, I know I walked in the building with the best darn dog there that day, and I know that, regardless of the outcome of the trial, I'm leaving with the best dog, too.
I'll feel that way about JH and/or SH events with my dog, too, if I ever get there. No matter how my dog does, I'm still going home with the best dog there.
And BTW, there are a whole lot more goldens in field events than there are labs in obedience events (at least in this area). Hmmmm......
I have also known and boarded some awesome labs, too, so I'm not slamming the entire breed. But man oh man, I get some wild, hyper, psycho ones, too. We call them blab-ra-dor retrievers because they NEVER stop barking, and also slobber-a-dor retrievers....
I always laugh when a customer says something silly like, "oh, labs and goldens are pretty much the same except one has longer hair, right??"
I take them over to a dog run with a couple labs in it. It's the one with NOTHING in there because the dogs can't be trusted to not chew up and eat every toy, bed, etc., every made. Chances are we have the water in a cement bowl, made especially for labs, and chances are they've still managed to slop it all over anyway. They will be jumping up and down at the gate, barking and slobbering, non-stop. 
Then I take them to a dog run with a couple of goldens in it. Their bedding will be elaborate and neat, and there will be a couple of nice toys in with them. The water is in a regular bowl, and not spilled at all. The dogs are sitting quietly at the gate, each with a toy in their mouth, waiting to be acknowledged, each with a little halo over their head.....





Tatnall said:


> What dog are you talking about? Cotton? Expo?
> 
> As far as the golden comments, I have found it is rarely more than good natured kidding in real life but on message boards, cloaked by the interwebs, they can be nasty about it.
> 
> I don't buy into the whole 'JH and done' whine about goldens. Truth is most labs are the same way. If you complain about the numbers in JH from conformation or pet folks, the answer is simple: don't run. If you dog is so great, just run Masters. I encourage folks to try, even if their goal is only a JH. Some of those folks might be bitten by the bug and get serious. Some might start breeding for field traits in dogs that have excellent conformation. One day, we might see another dual champion. At worst, the retriever club makes a few extra bucks to keep running events.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> At the end of the day, we each have to take our dog home and live with it. Having boarded TONS of labs and TONS of goldens, I'll go home and live with my golden any day.
> When I take my dog to an obedience show, I know I walked in the building with the best darn dog there that day, and I know that, regardless of the outcome of the trial, I'm leaving with the best dog, too.
> I'll feel that way about JH and/or SH events with my dog, too, if I ever get there. No matter how my dog does, I'm still going home with the best dog there.
> And BTW, there are a whole lot more goldens in field events than there are labs in obedience events (at least in this area). Hmmmm......
> ...


Okay this is just my two cents and probably not even worth that much.
In every breed you have the good responsible breeders and then you have breeders that on the surface do the "right" things but winning is what matters most. Whether it be conformation, companion or performance venues they all have them. From what I know of the top field dogs, Labs and/or Goldens, there is not one that you would not have as a pet under your roof. Their temperments are great and they have definative on/off switches. This is because these folks and breeders "get it". They understand that from most litters most pups will not be FC/AFCs but all will need to be an important and loved member of the family. The top handlers would not be willing to live or put up with the antics of those that you describe. And I know these dogs exist but it because there are some who are so hell bent on producing "THAT" dog that they let other traits be ignored and over time this is what you get. Dogs who can not turn off , settle or be quiet. And I do not think thiss is limite to "field" dogs at all, it exists in the other venues also. Just my two cents worth.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Happy New Year! well almost and its getting close. 
This was my cheap way of trying to get to 15 posts so that I can respond to my private messages. Two are waiting....


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm sorry if I implied it was only in field bred dogs, that wasn't my intention at all. The dogs I board are 99% from pet families, and I'm sorry to say that a HUGE percentage are from BYB, not from good responsible breeders of any sort, or even breeders who breed to win. They breed to make a few bucks.




AmbikaGR said:


> Okay this is just my two cents and probably not even worth that much.
> In every breed you have the good responsible breeders and then you have breeders that on the surface do the "right" things but winning is what matters most. Whether it be conformation, companion or performance venues they all have them. From what I know of the top field dogs, Labs and/or Goldens, there is not one that you would not have as a pet under your roof. Their temperments are great and they have definative on/off switches. This is because these folks and breeders "get it". They understand that from most litters most pups will not be FC/AFCs but all will need to be an important and loved member of the family. The top handlers would not be willing to live or put up with the antics of those that you describe. And I know these dogs exist but it because there are some who are so hell bent on producing "THAT" dog that they let other traits be ignored and over time this is what you get. Dogs who can not turn off , settle or be quiet. And I do not think thiss is limite to "field" dogs at all, it exists in the other venues also. Just my two cents worth.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Late here, but I have loved this thread. Lots of good info. I am trying out field training with my newest puppy. She comes from field lines. It was never my plan when I got her, but boy is it fun! The training groups I have gone out with have been very nice. And not only am I brining a Golden, but she is not wearing an e-collar! Well, I hope to hear more!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> There are hopes of another... his name is often mentioned in my threads and he is only 14 weeks old! We are trying, trying, trying. Cheer us on!


I will be rooting for you! That would be amazing!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm sorry if I implied it was only in field bred dogs, that wasn't my intention at all.


I did not think you implied that at all. The reason I added the comment to my post was I did not want it to appear that was what I was implying.


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

sammydog said:


> I will be rooting for you! That would be amazing!


 
We were just talking smack. Frankly, Rooster's primary mission is field work. With, 3 kids of the sports age, I cannot fathom having the time to show him too.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Klamath Gold said:


> We were just talking smack. Frankly, Rooster's primary mission is field work. With, 3 kids of the sports age, I cannot fathom having the time to show him too.


Awww! I was excited! I want to see another dual champ!


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

So sad that Sabre passed recently. He was the only CH/QAA golden.



Ljilly28 said:


> http://www.amigold.com/sabre.html
> 
> The second to last paragraph about how much Sabre (Am. CH. Amigold On A Wing N A Prayer CD MH WCX VCX DDHF OS***.) had to travel/be away is an issue too. It is really hard to succeed in both venues without sending the dog away to a professional handler.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Tatnall said:


> So sad that Sabre passed recently. He was the only CH/QAA golden.


But there was a time back in 2002-2004 that he WAS the *GREAT GOLDEN HOPE! *Many of us thought it was going to happen.


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