# Junior vs puppy conformation



## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

We are looking into showing our puppy next year. I see that there is junior showmanship and puppy conformation. Would my son be able to do both? Or is puppy conformation just for adults? BTW he is 10 years old. Duke is 8.5 weeks old.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Which show are you looking at?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes you can do both. Have you found classes to attend when the pup is a bit older?


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

SheetsSM said:


> Which show are you looking at?


Looking at a puppy conformation show in March. Also an all breed show with junior handling at Maryland state Fairgrounds in April.

Found 2 places that offer handling classes: 4 paws spa/training and oriole. We currently take puppy classes at 4 paws. Not sure which one we will go to for handling classes. Does anyone know any other places or any experiences with these two?


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Arnispinay said:


> Looking at a puppy conformation show in March. Also an all breed show with junior handling at Maryland state Fairgrounds in April.
> 
> Found 2 places that offer handling classes: 4 paws spa/training and oriole. We currently take puppy classes at 4 paws. Not sure which one we will go to for handling classes. Does anyone know any other places or any experiences with these two?


If you're doing the 4-6 month puppy class at the PVGRC specialty, I'll be there w/ my pup!

I am currently taking a handling class at CTA in Beltsville and will be doing another one beginning mid-Jan at Capital in Silver Spring--both locations I think are too far for you. I like Oriole, if you can get a class there, I'd take it.


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

SheetsSM said:


> If you're doing the 4-6 month puppy class at the PVGRC specialty, I'll be there w/ my pup!
> 
> I am currently taking a handling class at CTA in Beltsville and will be doing another one beginning mid-Jan at Capital in Silver Spring--both locations I think are too far for you. I like Oriole, if you can get a class there, I'd take it.


Yup, that the pup show we are looking at. So you are already taking handling classes with your puppy? How old is s/he? We are so new to all of this.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

If you want your son to be a Junior Handler, go to the AKC and apply for a Junior Handler number now so you are all set when doing the entries. Make sure his name and/or your name is on the puppy's registration.

In Junior Handling, the judge judges the handler not the dog, but it is important that the puppy is trained and the Junior Handler has to do all the grooming.


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

cubbysan said:


> If you want your son to be a Junior Handler, go to the AKC and apply for a Junior Handler number now so you are all set when doing the entries. Make sure his name and/or your name is on the puppy's registration.
> 
> In Junior Handling, the judge judges the handler not the dog, bu it is important that the puppy is trained and the Junior Handler has to do all the grooming.


we just got his number and pin the other day. now we are focusing on basic training and looking for handling classes.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Arnispinay said:


> we just got his number and pin the other day. now we are focusing on basic training and looking for handling classes.


So awesome! My daughter just started Junior Handling last year, so we are learning along the way. I have found many people (breeders, handlers, and other people in the show world ) have been very supportive of her when they find out she is a Junior. There are also a couple Facebook pages that I have learned from.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Okay here are some thoughts...

If you are showing in juniors and regular classes that is a lot for a puppy let alone a boy. If it is a specialty, you would have juniors, regular classes and Sweepstakes until your puppy is 18 months old which is even more. Then most shows are at least 2 days and that multiplies the amount of work. 

I actually witnessed a family burn out a puppy by doing this, entering every available class for a 5 day show. By the end the puppy was burnt out and never really got back her love of showing. 

That takes me to the next thought. For the puppy (and ideally your son) this has to be fun. It is a real balance to find that for both of them. If you are allowed by your breeder to register him with UKC, I would look into starting there if they have some in your area. They are a much smaller organization and must UKC shows are very family and newbie friendly. Also the level of grooming is much less intimidating as UKC does not allow the use of product on the coat.

If you do need to choose I would go juniors at least until your son gets a very good foundation of ring procedures and the puppy has gotten some good ring experience. 

You will be amazed at all the little things it takes to show a dog well and a good chunk is building routine and muscle memory. How your stride length should be, how to quickly and safely wind a lead into your hand, which foot to plant for your pivot on the individual work, how to set and reset the collar, and what to do about bait. These are the little things that once learned become second nature but while you are learning can be frustrating.


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

LJack said:


> Okay here are some thoughts...
> 
> If you are showing in juniors and regular classes that is a lot for a puppy let alone a boy. If it is a specialty, you would have juniors, regular classes and Sweepstakes until your puppy is 18 months old which is even more. Then most shows are at least 2 days and that multiplies the amount of work.
> 
> ...


Keep in my that I am brand new at this but what are regular classes? I am only looking at 2 different events, one for puppy and the other for juniors. I don't think is too much since they are in different months and local to me. If it really is too much for both if them, then we could just watch the puppy show.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Arnispinay said:


> Keep in my that I am brand new at this but what are regular classes? I am only looking at 2 different events, one for puppy and the other for juniors. I don't think is too much since they are in different months and local to me. If it really is too much for both if them, then we could just watch the puppy show.


Often times a show could be over a period of two to four days - a specialty could have puppy sweeps (no points but a way to show off new show puppies), a puppy class ( sometimes 2 in one day, these are where you get your points ) and a junior handling class - that would be 3 or 4 events in one day, a long day for a puppy plus all the time it needs to spend on the grooming table, now multiply that by the amount of days the show is running.

Some dogs love being shown, others don't, so for a young puppy you want to keep it as fun and stress free as possible. If these events are not on the same day, than no issues.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Regular classes are the breed classes also know as the breed ring. This is where they will judge the puppy against other goldens, first in age specific classes for puppies like 6-under 9 months, 9-under 12 months, 12 months-under 18 month then by other groupings like American bred, or Open. In this class you son's skill will come into play but not be judged directly, it is the conformation of the dog to the standard that is judged here. These are held separately from Junior exhibitors. 

In Junior exhibitior, regularly shortened to Juniors, they will judge how your son presents his dog. The puppy's training and ability to work will come in to play but not the conformation. 

Speaking of the standard, in Juniors judges will ask questions and might ask a breed standard specific one. So have your son study up on the standard. https://www.grca.org/about-the-breed/akc-breed-standard/

I agree if the events are separated by time counted in days, no worries.


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

We went to our first handling class last night. The instructor took Duke's leash and showed how the movements should look like. She made it look so easy and Duke was wonderful. Next my son tried trotting but instead it became a run. The stand also looked completely different. Now we know Duke has the ability to do it, we just have to work on my son. We have until March so I am optimistic Niko can learn this. Duke is so lovely that we are so excited to put him in the puppy show


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The 'puppy show' you are referencing is a regular class- 6-9 puppy dog. 
If he wins his class, he will go back in for Winner's Dog (so you have to stay).
If he comes in second, he must stay to go back for Reserve if the 6-9 puppy dog takes Winner's Dog.

In Juniors, he will be in Novice Junior until he has 3 wins w competition, and there is no going back in if he is second in the class. If he wins the class, he will go back in for Best Junior. He shouldn't expect to win Best class for a long time.The Seniors are very polished!

While you are at classes, I would let the teacher move Duke several times each class- so Duke 'gets' it. 
And your son can practice several things- the leash is hard to manage for kids- he can tie your keys to the leash part, hold it out and practice rolling it up in his hand till he can do with without making keys clang. That's a good exercise. 
He'll need a wardrobe- at least dress shirt/pants and shoes. Don't get slippery shoes. He should wear socks. 
In the classes I taught for years in Chattanooga, we held a dress rehearsal on week 7 so the kids came in, had to know how to get their armband, be dressed for the part, etc.
I'm so happy for the sport to have a potential new exhibitor! If there's a show you can go and just watch, that's a great idea. And you tube has tons of Juniors clips- 
PLUS you have the bonus of Christmas upcoming, and he will need a comb and a grooming table, and lots of $$$ gifts, lol!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

One thing I have learned about handling in general, it is not as easy as it looks. I have taken many classes, and I personally just cannot do it correctly. My daughter on the other hand is a natural, she floats around the ring. 

One thing you will notice is that some of the BEST handlers you will see at a show, are the older Junior Handlers. They are so polished and professional, it is unbelievable. Have him watch them to learn, and yes not get frustrated and to strive to be like them. At first my daughter was intimidated by them, but we have talked to many ringside, and every single one of them have shared with us a piece of information - whether it be where they buy their outfits, to what type of treats the like, to why they chose the breed they chose, etc.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Another thing, he need to learn to groom his golden - how to bathe, blow dry and trim. A Junior Handler is the one that is responsible for the grooming of their dog in the ring. If you can get into a seminar to learn grooming a golden or if your breeder can give you lessons. I have been to many and am still learning. My breeder lets my daughter practice on her retired dogs too.


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

Prism Goldens said:


> The 'puppy show' you are referencing is a regular class- 6-9 puppy dog.
> If he wins his class, he will go back in for Winner's Dog (so you have to stay).
> If he comes in second, he must stay to go back for Reserve if the 6-9 puppy dog takes Winner's Dog.
> 
> ...


Do you have any recommendations for a grooming table?
Thanks for all the advice! They had a lot of fun at class last night


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

What a darling pair!! Grooming tables- you have to consider weight and ability to leave it outside at home (at least to me)- https://wiki.ezvid.com/best-dog-gro...KzaAvTzzEzQbsihbhf2L-bItSZnld7DayBRoCz4nw_wcB lists some- 

I like a fold down arm instead of a tubular one- it's less likely to be bent, and takes up much less space when you are going to the show. If you can afford a 42" one, that'd be better than a 36- but certainly a 36 is adequate. 
On practice grooming- if you have a GRR near you, that you can make relationship with, that was the way my daughter learned to fix problem areas. If the topline was dipped, she learned how to cut to make it 'go away' visually on the rescue dogs in TVGRR- and her grooming of course made them much more appealing to the adopter and the rescue group loved us to come spend the day grooming. She learned ears on rescues, toplines, lack of stop fixes, you name it. And I deducted the mileage since we were donating services. Win-win!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Prism Goldens said:


> On practice grooming- if you have a GRR near you, that you can make relationship with, that was the way my daughter learned to fix problem areas. If the topline was dipped, she learned how to cut to make it 'go away' visually on the rescue dogs in TVGRR- and her grooming of course made them much more appealing to the adopter and the rescue group loved us to come spend the day grooming. She learned ears on rescues, toplines, lack of stop fixes, you name it. And I deducted the mileage since we were donating services. Win-win!


I think this is a fabulous idea! I am more than happy to practice on other dogs as you're only going to get better by doing. At the National in Ohio, there were several comments by spectators chastising the grooming of the goldens in the rescue parade. I was fortunate to have my pup's breeder tidy up my old guy so he looked the part, but was wishing the other owners had the same opportunity vice getting critiqued by those ringside--hope to be able to do something for the rescue's at the 2017 National.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

SheetsSM said:


> At the National in Ohio, there were several comments by spectators chastising the grooming of the goldens in the rescue parade.


That's horrible. Perhaps rather than speaking ugly of others they should volunteer their abilities towards a little workshop to teach those not involved in the show ring on how to groom a golden.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> That's horrible. Perhaps rather than speaking ugly of others they should volunteer their abilities towards a little workshop to teach those not involved in the show ring on how to groom a golden.


Jodie - these are done all the time through the clubs...

Sometimes you have to pay, however if you figure out how much people spend over at Petsmart for grooming - it's worth it. 

There also always more to learn. I'm hoping to attend a grooming and handling seminar through a local club in a couple months. What I hope to take from the seminar is dog specific tips and feedback.

*** Also, one thing to throw out there. I don't know how it all followed through... I went down to the Columbus specialty, but was kinda frazzled + had my time down there abbreviated because of work. I also didn't get much time to visit with people I knew other than stopping by to wish some good luck. But leading up to the show, there were people discussing helping the field dogs get groomed up nicely for showing in the gun classes. Obviously, the parade of rescues people won't be putting their dogs on tables and grooming 1-2 hours before going out there and I think it's unreasonable to expect a rescue dog to look like a show dog even with **** and span. But very basic grooming, if people are planning to take their rescues into the parade before hand... they could reach out to the clubs out there for who can do a basic groom on their dogs.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Both Mid FL and the Atlanta GRCs have grooming days for rescues. I haven't participated in MF's yet but at AGRCs the hardest thing was that the dogs were unused to being groomed at all, and often I felt like owners were mostly getting their dog (who was supposed to be clean so not to kill our tools) done up for a $15 donation- and then took them home and maybe bathed them maybe not. 
At the Parade of Rescues, though, those dogs are generally clean- and I would be happy to help you if it doesn't fall on CCA day.


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## Aislinn (Nov 13, 2010)

Three out of four of my kids did Juniors. As someone said, have him watch the seniors, especially those with Goldens or larger breeds. The judge is looking to see if he knows how to present his dog to it's best advantage so he needs to have someone help him on what pace/speed to show his puppy, especially as your puppy starts growing up. My kids practiced at our Kennel Club's conformation classes as well. Other exhibitors were always willing to help them. Make sure he knows to not run at a show and to be on the quieter side if he's an outgoing young man. If he can win the respect of any handlers they'll start giving him tips. My kids ended up with judges and handlers all working with them. And make sure he understands when he first starts out he isn't going to win, it's a learning curve, the more he goes out and does it, the better he'll get. Make sure he always has good sportsmanship and congratulates the winners. It will be noticed if he does and also if he doesn't. Most of all help him to understand he needs to have fun for himself and to make sure his puppy is having fun as well. There are also some good books on Junior Showmanship. Look at the publishing dates if you look for some as you'll want the newer ones. And keep us posted on how he's does, with pictures of course!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> Jodie - these are done all the time through the clubs...
> 
> Sometimes you have to pay, however if you figure out how much people spend over at Petsmart for grooming - it's worth it.


I was actually speaking about specifically at the National. If they think the dogs taking part in a parade of rescues should be groomed a certain way, why don't they have a group there to help educate them how rather than just make snide comments? 

Not everyone is part of a golden club or lives anywhere close to one. I for one live three hours from the closest club, and seeing as most meetings are on week days, there's no way I could make enough consecutive meetings to become a member. I check their calendar regularly and I never see any kind of grooming workshop listed, at least not one open to non members.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Aislinn said:


> And make sure he understands when he first starts out he isn't going to win, it's a learning curve, the more he goes out and does it, the better he'll get. Make sure he always has good sportsmanship and congratulates the winners. It will be noticed if he does and also if he doesn't. Most of all help him to understand he needs to have fun for himself and to make sure his puppy is having fun as well. And keep us posted on how he's does, with pictures of course!


A big point- I sort of glossed over it but he really should not expect to win for a while. And in Best Junior, not for years probably. When Maxie showed her very first time in Juniors there were of course FIVE kids (there are 4 ribbons) and she came in dead last. Stood there till everyone got their ribbon. Said to the judge, 'someone was going to lose, thank you for judging' , and that was pretty much her attitude always. Funny thing though- she ran into that judge probably 8-9 years later- and he remembered her. It turned out that her first day in the ring was also his first time judging Juniors- he told her that she had inspired him. We never know when our attitude changes others' perceptions- it's wonderful if we learn about our influence later but I am willing to be someone somewhere remembers us every day for something. I hope it is always a good memory!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

We have a few fantastic junior handers who now can show almost any breed against adults and hold their own. However, they started out exclusively in juniors with their own dog. That gives a sturdy foundation. My handler gives her time often at shows to run seminars at lunch with other AKC handlers to teach & mentor juniors. There are so many opportunities , that it can wait for them both to go in the "big" ring for confidence and sealegs. It isn't a bad idea to have a professional handler show the pup a few times, so the puppy has a sure-handed early experience . It can be great fun for a junior to show a finished champion who is an experienced show dog in the same vein.It is complicated, bc theownerof that dog musty be willing to put the kiddo on the papers( I have done so twice), but there is something to be said fora green young handler teamed up with an experienced show dog and a green young puppy teamed up with an experienced handler. That is not to say it isn't equally rewarding for the two to grow together, the puppy and the junior, but you need an amazing class or mentor.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I was actually speaking about specifically at the National. If they think the dogs taking part in a parade of rescues should be groomed a certain way, why don't they have a group there to help educate them how rather than just make snide comments?


I'm not defending the snarky comments. I'm just thinking about the context. I honestly don't think any criticism is appropriate when it concerns pets, which the rescues are. I think that's just terrible from that perspective. If people were into flapping their gums about what they saw - they should at least wait until they get back to their setups. Just because there's going to be family members and friends around. 

It may be the grooming was the only negative thing for them. They might have been sitting there to support and cheer on the rescues - if these were exhibitors for the big classes, that's a pretty big deal. It's not often you have people watching classes that they are not directly or indirectly involved with. 

You see this in obedience. You have the "watch ME" prima donnas in obedience who compete for OTCH in open and utility, who whine about people not sticking around to watch and cheer them on... and these same people never ever wander into the novice, beginner novice, pre novice, rally sides of things to cheer on people they don't know. Every sport has the same types of people involved. 

So the people who do stick around to cheer on rescues - if these were breed people or exhibitors, good on them! Regardless of the "OMG the groom job" comments they might have been making. I'm going out on a limb and say it was better than if they were critiquing the dogs themselves. 

I'm willing to bet that all the dogs in the parade were taken to groomers prior to participating in the parade. How the dog is groomed varies based on the knowledge of the groomer and also the permission of the owner. Some people are told 99 times where to go or how to groom and it sometimes goes in one ear and out the other. Only time it makes sense is when somebody actually grooms their dog the proper way and they see the difference.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Many dogs had untidy ears & slippers on feet. Not sure how connected rescues are associated w/ their local GR clubs--I've yet to experience any close ties having lived in the South, Midwest & now MidAtlantic and aside from providing donations it's just not there which to me is an untapped source for education & performance sports--so I don't know that those in the parade would even think to reach out to the breed community for help. My first experience w/ the competitive golden world was walking in the parade at National back in Atlanta--had no clue there was this whole other world out there. But, back to the point of getting experience in grooming, I think it would be a great source to practice grooming for someone starting out w/o the pressure of having ruined someone's show dog and I do hope I don't end up changing jobs this Summer so I can attend National and do want to treat those rescues to a special day, something magical about getting to walk the ring w/ your dog...


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"there were several comments by spectators chastising the grooming of the goldens in the rescue parade"

I totally missed that. I was so excited to see you and Duke in the ring. He looked gorgeous and you guys were awesome out there. It was extremely moving to see all those sweet beautiful goldens out there and to know they were in their forever homes with owners that loved them.


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

cubbysan said:


> Another thing, he need to learn to groom his golden - how to bathe, blow dry and trim. A Junior Handler is the one that is responsible for the grooming of their dog in the ring. If you can get into a seminar to learn grooming a golden or if your breeder can give you lessons. I have been to many and am still learning. My breeder lets my daughter practice on her retired dogs too.


How often should you bathe a golden pup?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Arnispinay said:


> How often should you bathe a golden pup?


My breeder bathes all of hers once a week. During a show weekend everyday.

I try to do my show dogs every 10 days, but that does not always happen. Show weekends, everyday, or at least hose them down and blow dry them every day after the initial bath - morning of the show, or night before.


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## Arnispinay (Oct 26, 2016)

Niko and Duke did really well in puppy conformation. I saw the judge move them up in line but didn't know what that meant. After Niko came out of the ring, everyone was congratulating him. Apparently he got 2nd male! Yay!


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## Pilgrim123 (Jul 26, 2014)

That's awesome! Congratulations!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Congratulations! Great start!


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