# Skylon & Silvermine Kennels



## MillysMom

Can anyone tell me about these two breeders. I am looking for a puppy, and a friend purchased one from Silvermine. 

I've been recommended to Skylon from some people on the Chronicle of the Horse online forum (like this but for horses), and wanted to hear the good and bad of this breeder. I've been emailing with Judy and she sounds very nice, but I am a little concerned at the # of litters she has each year. However, I do have friends in South Carolina that breed labs for field trials, and have some of the top labs in the country and have numerous litters a year too. So, I don't know if I should be alarmed at the high number of litters, or not.

Her dogs on the website do look beautiful. Any thoughts on either of these breeders would be great. I currently have an American red golden, and would really like to get an English (love the thicker look) and preferably a cream female.


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## buckeyegoldenmom

I would suggest you read the previous thread called "Horrible breeder in Canada"


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## BeauShel

I looked at Skylon Kennels website and she has a VERY large number of puppies and dogs being bred. That would scare me away. 
And as for Silvermine Kennels if you google it after their website is listed there is several complaints about that breeder. 
I would suggest you go to the GRCA website and check their site for puppy referrals. Also at the top of the website is a miscalleous button with "a puppy buyers fact checker" for some good information. Good luck with finding a puppy. But dont discount a rescue for a dog. They also get some puppies sometimes.


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## MurphyTeller

I'd recommend going to GRCA.org and contacting the breeder referral in your area - no guarantee but you've got some better odds I think. The big things are obvious - clearances, proper documentation of the dogs and the lines - the number of litters that those two breeders are producing every year is a red flag, etc. NO ONE can truly care for and properly socialize 5-6 litters at a time - it's impossible - and scary.
Erica


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## Doolin

Where are you located? I can recommend a reputable breeder of the English type in your area if you would like.


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## MillysMom

Thanks for the advice. I am in the Washington, DC/NOVA area. I do know for sure I only want a dog where both parents have excellent hips, heart, and eye clearance. 

I have also been referred to a breeder in Scotland, but don't know how much it costs to import from the UK. 

My current golden is a rescue, and I love her so much that I would be terrified to rescue another that I didn't know it's health history. I've lucked out on one with absolutely amazing hips (as an 8 year old) and keep her on Cosequin everyday as a preventative, but I just don't think my heart could handle falling in love with a dog that might have hip problems in their bloodlines. I know later in life I'd love to adopt another Golden, but right now I really want to pick a beautiful show quality puppy that will improve the line. I think rescue is awesome, but right now I'd like to purchase a well bred dog. I also would love to start fostering, so I'm all for finding homes for the homeless doggies (and kitty's too).


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## kwhit

"...I only want a dog where both parents have excellent hips, heart, and eye clearance..."

Please include elbows in your list of clearances. My Golden has perfect hips, but he does have elbow dysplasia. Good luck in your search.


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## FlyingQuizini

Finding dual excellent hips will be a challenge. IMO, "good" hips are perfectly acceptable in Goldens. Stay away from anything less than a rating of "good". Ditto on checking elbows, too. Hips, elbows, heart, eyes, thyroid...


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## marshmellow

I want to be certain that were talking about the same breeder. Is the location of Skylon in Ontario Canada? If it is, this is where I adopted my dog from. Yes , she does have alot of dogs...some are in outdoor pens..some run around the area with the hired help. Some of the dogs there, are older becasue people have returned them, unable to care for them. In her contract , if you are unable to look after the dog , she is to take back responsibility of the dog. Not everyone can or wants to handle a retriever.
So far Garcia has been amazing..he's gorgeous. He's 1 year old this November and in great health and temperment of an angel...lol....
Any more questions...feel free to ask


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## Tahnee GR

FlyingQuizini said:


> Finding dual excellent hips will be a challenge. IMO, "good" hips are perfectly acceptable in Goldens. Stay away from anything less than a rating of "good". Ditto on checking elbows, too. Hips, elbows, heart, eyes, thyroid...


I disagree-there is nothing wrong with an OFA rating of "Fair." There is no evidence of DJD in Fair hips. This is where family history can be important. I would rather breed a dog with Fair hips whose parents, etc. were Good or Better, than a dog with Good hips whose parents, etc. did not have clearances or were dysplastic or had a history of producing dysplasia.

That said, I would generally not breed a Fair to a Fair. I would prefer to breed a Fair to a Good or an Excellent.


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## AmbikaGR

Welcome to the forum.
With where you are located you have a great number of responsible breeders in your area to choose from. Here are links to some of the local clubs in your area. You can check them out for their puppy/breeder referral. We also have some on this forum in your area that breed - Delmarva Goldens for one. Good luck in your search!
http://www.chesapeakegrc.org/

http://www.grgrcm.org/

http://www.pvgrc.org/


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## AquaClaraCanines

I know nothing about either breeder- but good luck in your search. I do suggest you be wary of anyone advertising "cream" or English Creme or similar. Neither is an asset, nor is worth more than any other Golden... in fact really washed out white/cream is a fault in the standard- certainly it shouldn't cost more than a correctly colored dog. If you prefer the color, that's fine- but don't let yourself be ripped off!


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## buckeyegoldenmom

Delmarva goldens has puppies right now I believe!


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## DUSTYRD2

Tahnee GR said:


> I disagree-there is nothing wrong with an OFA rating of "Fair." There is no evidence of DJD in Fair hips. This is where family history can be important. I would rather breed a dog with Fair hips whose parents, etc. were Good or Better, than a dog with Good hips whose parents, etc. did not have clearances or were dysplastic or had a history of producing dysplasia.
> 
> That said, I would generally not breed a Fair to a Fair. I would prefer to breed a Fair to a Good or an Excellent.


Yes, I agree Linda. I know for fact that a Fair bred to Good can and did produce a pups rated with OFA Excellents & Goods. Do not discount discount dogs with Fair hips.


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## MillysMom

Thanks for the tips and references! I really wanted to get a Bernese Mountain Dog or a PONS, and that is where I learned about the OFA certifications--I didn't realize with Goldens it is hard to find two excellents breeding. Good to know how that works.

As far as the color, my roommate has a yellow lab, and I'd prefer a lighter golden 1) so all the hair on the carpet is the same color 2) as my red golden ages I'd like a dog that "looks" different from her--I know that sounds silly, but I really think so many goldens look very much alike, and when Milly is gone (I hope many many years from now) I'd like my other dog to have a different look. 

Again, thank you for all the responses. 

And to the person who asked about which Skylon it is the one in Ontario. I'm glad to hear something positive about the breeder, not sure what to think now with 2 mixed reviews--but, I'd like to find a breeder with all good reviews (if that is possible).


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## Doolin

If you definitely prefer a golden who is considered cream or very light and from English Lines, I would recommend visiting www.englishgoldens.net you can find many reputable breeders here. I am not say all are great, but a majority are. I would be happy to tell you what I know about those you contact.


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## Braccarius

For an "english cream" Halia Goldens http://haliagoldens.freehomepage.com/ seems to strive for the whole package rather than just colour. 

For regular Golden Retrievers out of Ontario avoid Skylon like the plague and go with Arcane www.arcanegoldens.com

Those are the two better breeders I could think of off hand.


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## avincent52

I recall some discussion of Halia before, so it's worth a search.
I scanned her site and it seems that the breeder is relatively young and has been at this for about three years.
I know that everyone's got to start somewhere, but how much would this concern you?
Just to make it clear, this is meant as a legitimate question, not a slam on this specific breeder.
allen


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## HaliaGoldens

avincent52 said:


> I recall some discussion of Halia before, so it's worth a search.
> I scanned her site and it seems that the breeder is relatively young and has been at this for about three years.
> I know that everyone's got to start somewhere, but how much would this concern you?
> Just to make it clear, this is meant as a legitimate question, not a slam on this specific breeder.
> allen


Hi guys,
I saw that I'd come up in this thread, and figured I should add my two cents.  I'm honored that I would be recommended and am glad that anyone getting a puppy is putting the effort that they should into checking out the practices and reputation of the breeders in question. While I guess I am relatively young (24 years), I have owned, researched pedigrees, and worked with goldens for more than ten years, and I am constantly learning and improving. I bred my first litter in 2005, and have bred very sparingly since then. I put the effort and high standards that I've always demanded in other areas of my life into my dogs, and I hope that anyone who has dealt with me sees that. I'd be happy to answer any questions about my dogs or future breedings if anyone is interested. I'm also a member of the English Background Goldens in North America (that was mentioned in this thread), and would recommend it as a search tool for the OP.
As a side note, I've never referred to my dogs as "English Creams", and never will. It is a fabricated term which is generally used by those who a.) don't know what they're talking about, or b.) are purposely trying to advertise their dogs as something rare and "exquisite". Ok, I promise I'm done with my rant!


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## Gwen

Braccarius said:


> For an "english cream" Halia Goldens http://haliagoldens.freehomepage.com/ seems to strive for the whole package rather than just colour.
> 
> For regular Golden Retrievers out of Ontario avoid Skylon like the plague and go with Arcane www.arcanegoldens.com
> 
> Those are the two better breeders I could think of off hand.


 
Ambertru Golden Retrievers from Pembroke, Ontario. Connie (Ambertru) is a member on here as well & both Oliver & Nyg came from Connie! She's wonderful! My daughter has an Arcane girl & Riley is wonderful as well - Heather was amazing as well! My 2 cents worth!


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## Lilliegrace

I thought I would paste this review on Skylon Kennels in Cambridge Ontario.

*SKYLON KENNELS*


1 review 

1227 Roseville Rd RR 2, 
Cambridge, ON
<SPAN class=l_phone>*T:*


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## Braccarius

HaliaGoldens said:


> Hi guys,
> I saw that I'd come up in this thread, and figured I should add my two cents.  I'm honored that I would be recommended and am glad that anyone getting a puppy is putting the effort that they should into checking out the practices and reputation of the breeders in question. While I guess I am relatively young (24 years), I have owned, researched pedigrees, and worked with goldens for more than ten years, and I am constantly learning and improving. I bred my first litter in 2005, and have bred very sparingly since then. I put the effort and high standards that I've always demanded in other areas of my life into my dogs, and I hope that anyone who has dealt with me sees that. I'd be happy to answer any questions about my dogs or future breedings if anyone is interested. I'm also a member of the English Background Goldens in North America (that was mentioned in this thread), and would recommend it as a search tool for the OP.
> As a side note, I've never referred to my dogs as "English Creams", and never will. It is a fabricated term which is generally used by those who a.) don't know what they're talking about, or b.) are purposely trying to advertise their dogs as something rare and "exquisite". Ok, I promise I'm done with my rant!


I put it in quotations!!! Don't blame me!!!!!! (just kidding) LoL


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## HaliaGoldens

Braccarius said:


> I put it in quotations!!! Don't blame me!!!!!! (just kidding) LoL


Haha....yes i know you did put it in quotes, and I of course don't fault you.  I just had to mention it because I can't stand it. Even when I'm just out walking the dogs, I get people asking me if they are "one of those english creams".....it sounds like a pastry!


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## AquaClaraCanines

LOL at the pastry comment!


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## Debles

I would die to have a Delmarva golden but I think they usually have a very long waiting list. I am sure it is worth it but Maryland is too far from me. : (


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## buckeyegoldenmom

Debles said:


> I would die to have a Delmarva golden but I think they usually have a very long waiting list. I am sure it is worth it but Maryland is too far from me. : (



Her website says she has males available from the two litters just born.

:wave: Sherrie


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## MillysMom

This might sound like a stupid question (I am trying to learn and absorb as much as I possibly can before selecting a breeder for my next golden), but I’ve noticed (and appreciate hearing the good and bad) many people say don’t touch Skylon with a ten foot pole. However, many reputable breeders that have been referenced on these boards seem to have dogs with the Skylon prefix in their names as part of their breeding program. I’m assuming this means these dogs came from Skylon Kennels—is this correct?

Is there a risk that these are poorly bred dogs? Or, is the golden retriever world so small that you’re bound to have breeders using other breeders stud dogs in their programs?

I’m sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but I just want to make sure I’m able to find a reputable breeder, and am able to support the breed by using a responsible breeder. 

Thanks.


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## dogluver04

HaliaGoldens said:


> As a side note, I've never referred to my dogs as "English Creams", and never will. It is a fabricated term which is generally used by those who a.) don't know what they're talking about, or b.) are purposely trying to advertise their dogs as something rare and "exquisite". Ok, I promise I'm done with my rant!


I totally agree with everyone on the English Goldens.. I personally would not want one myself, I like the darker colours, but I totally disagree with the people who advertise english as being a rare dog and charge way more.. My boyfriends sister just got a Golden Doodle and paid $1800 for this non purebred thing. When I commented that thats a lot of money she told me 
"she is bred with an English Golden and they are worth more" I was talking to her on msn and she didnt hear me laughing at her at the fact that this "breeder" just screwed them over.. Her and her spouse know nothing about dogs. They wanted a dog that wasnt going to shed.. lol 
My Chloe is english/american mix..and I didnt pay over $1000 because there was some english!

Just be careful for people like that! They are no better or no less a Golden just because they are English!

I dont know what area you are looking in exactly. Seems to be all over, and are you just looking for English? My breeder I got Cedar from is just north of Barrie,Ont.(In The Pink Goldens) She told me she has a litter ready just before xmas.. Not sure if its all reserved or not! As well as Abagale Goldens(referred by my breeder to them) has nice looking dogs! another breeder who does breed English is Silmaril in Grimsby, Ontario! He was actually my moms doctor.


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## Pointgold

MillysMom said:


> This might sound like a stupid question (I am trying to learn and absorb as much as I possibly can before selecting a breeder for my next golden), but I’ve noticed (and appreciate hearing the good and bad) many people say don’t touch Skylon with a ten foot pole. However, many reputable breeders that have been referenced on these boards seem to have dogs with the Skylon prefix in their names as part of their breeding program. I’m assuming this means these dogs came from Skylon Kennels—is this correct?
> 
> Is there a risk that these are poorly bred dogs? Or, is the golden retriever world so small that you’re bound to have breeders using other breeders stud dogs in their programs?
> 
> I’m sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but I just want to make sure I’m able to find a reputable breeder, and am able to support the breed by using a responsible breeder.
> 
> Thanks.


Judy Taylor and her twin sister, Jennifer Macauley were top breeders and handlers in Canada when I was showing Lyric there in the 80's. As I recall, they first bred Goldens under the Crys-haefen prefix, and then Judy bought Skylon. How it has been managed and kept is a mystery to me, I haven't shown in Canada for several years. But I can't think of a lot of current dogs bred by reputable breeders using the Skylon name.


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## Doolin

I can chime in on this one, Since I myself have a girl Judy bred. While I did not get to see where the puppies were whelped and kept, I cannot help with information here. There aren't a lot of breeders with dogs from Skylon. Although I think Judy is very willing to sell to show homes, What she like isn't necessarily what others like. My purchase was a novice mistake, one I wouldn't make again. I am quite a bit more educated an informed now, and have great friends I co-breed with and can get great prospects from if I decide I would like another addition. 

The Skylon prefix does would mean that is where the dog came from. I wouldn't necessarily say these are poorly bred dogs, as I believe Judy is current with clearances. I would say some have different perception of what they expect from a breeder.


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## Doolin

I also want to add in response to the post referring to the English Type as being of a certain color. That is not correct by any stretch. The English Type golden retriever has nothing to do with the color of the dog. Although it is easy to associate light color with the type, as the light color is more common overseas. I would be the novice could not tell the difference between a English type golden and an American type golden of the same color.


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## Pointgold

Doolin said:


> I also want to add in response to the post referring to the English Type as being of a certain color. That is not correct by any stretch. The English Type golden retriever has nothing to do with the color of the dog. Although it is easy to associate light color with the type, as the light color is more common overseas. I would be the novice could not tell the difference between a English type golden and an American type golden of the same color.


 
Unfortunately, dogs have been marketed as English Cream/Creme, British Whites, English Type, yada yada yada yada by less than reputable /knowledgeable breeders, who do not even understand the word "type" as it applies to dogs, so it is used incorrectly more often than not. This certainly does not make it any easier for a novice to understand.


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## Doolin

I completely agree that the less then reputable breeders have established this idea. I always like to take the opportunity to "myth bust" this idea. You could see from my househole that type is of no importance to me. I really just want a golden true to temperament, health, and "my" type. You almost wish cream wasn't an accepted color in the UK, then we most likely wouldn't have this problem.


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## Emma&Tilly

Doolin said:


> I completely agree that the less then reputable breeders have established this idea. I always like to take the opportunity to "myth bust" this idea. You could see from my househole that type is of no importance to me. I really just want a golden true to temperament, health, and "my" type. You almost wish cream wasn't an accepted color in the UK, then we most likely wouldn't have this problem.


I'm just waiting for the pendulum to swing the other way and for darker goldens to be the 'fad' over here...give it 10 years...


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## Pointgold

Doolin said:


> I completely agree that the less then reputable breeders have established this idea. I always like to take the opportunity to "myth bust" this idea. You could see from my househole that type is of no importance to me. I really just want a golden true to temperament, health, and "my" type. You almost wish cream wasn't an accepted color in the UK, then we most likely wouldn't have this problem.


But, "type" SHOULD be important - type is the characteristic qualities distinguishing a breed - the embodiment of a standard's essentials. 
"Style" may be of no importance to you - ie you like the "style" of Kennel XXX and also of Kennel YYY, although they are very different.


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## Doolin

What I meant is that English vs American does not affect how I feel about an individual dog. I have seen exceptional indviduals of both "types". I have my own "type" of golden in my own head. That is, what I believe is embodied in the Standard for the Golden Retriever and what the original intent of the breed was and still should be!


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## arcane

Doolin said:


> What I meant is that English vs American does not affect how I feel about an individual dog. I have seen exceptional indviduals of both "types". I have my own "type" of golden in my own head. That is, what I believe is embodied in the Standard for the Golden Retriever and what the original intent of the breed was and still should be!


hence where type and style are terms that are misused. As PG posted "type" is what we all should be striving for...Style may be of a more personal opinion.


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## Pointgold

What are we looking at here?


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## Pointgold

No one even wants to guess?


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## Jo Ellen

ummm....types of golden retrievers??


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## Pointgold

10 photos - 10 guesses...


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## AquaClaraCanines

Some of them are not even Goldens- the first one even has rear dewclaws I think... the head shot of the white dog is not a Golden either. The last one is... from White Dove I'd guess. Ouch. I think the 4th one is a field type UK bred dog.


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## HaliaGoldens

Pointgold said:


> What are we looking at here?


I recognize some of those pictures. A couple of them are very nice European-bred goldens (including Dewmist Silkventure, my bitch's grandsire), and some are horribly-bred goldens, and also some Kuvasz? The first puppy is not a golden (probably Kuvasz), as are the head shot lower down, and the four dogs with the man. The sad thing is that they look a lot like what many American breeders of "English Creams" are producing, because they cater to uninformed buyers who are simply asking for the biggest, fluffiest, whitest puppy. Which brings me to the last photo, of the dog "stacked" (not correctly) against the white stucco wall. This is one of the (many many many) dogs owned by a certain "breeder" over here in California.  She started out with some nice imports (including the brother of Tottelina Observer, a very successful golden owned by Dream Max Kennel in Sweden) and over bred them until she now has dogs that are so structurally unsound that they are barely recognizable as goldens.


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## Fozzybear

1. Dog in Clover
2. Dog by Pond
3. Dog on White Background
4. Dog by Woods
5. Dog on Road
6. Dog on Grass
7. Dog Breathing
8. Four dogs Breathing
9. Dog laying down Breathing (tired)
10. Dog by Wall

OK what do i win?

Sorry couldn't resist.


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## Jo Ellen

That's funny :lol:


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## Pointgold

*Another set...*

*In the first set I posted, left to right by row:
Great Pyreness, Golden Retriever
Golden, Golden Golden
Golden, Kuvasz, Kuvosz
Kuvosz, Golden (White Dove)


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## Packleader

Ok I'll try. First row: GP puppy(because of rear dewclaws), then English.
2nd row:American, American(although he looks like a Chessy) then English
3rd and 4th row all English? I tried.


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## Pointgold

Packleader said:


> Ok I'll try. First row: GP puppy(because of rear dewclaws), then English.
> 2nd row:American, American(although he looks like a Chessy) then English
> 3rd and 4th row all English? I tried.


*In the first set I posted, left to right by row:
Great Pyreness, Golden Retriever
Golden, Golden Golden
Golden, Kuvasz, Kuvosz
Kuvosz, Golden (White Dove)


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## Emma&Tilly

ooh I am enjoying these sets of pictures...really showcases the werid and wonderful world of GR's (although some clearly aren't GRs!) The good, the bad and the ugly!!

To me, this is what a golden should look like...








I really would love to know more about conformation but it just looks 'right' to me...also with, what looks like, the right amount/type of coat...some goldens seem to have such long flowing hair that you almost have to tie it in bunches just so you can see where the dogs legs are! I would love someone, who knows about all this, to put up a comparison of a structurally fabulous dog and a horridly bred dog and actually point out the differences...I mean, I can see some dogs clearly have an odd looking structure but I would love it all pointed out to me against a dog that is a representation of how it _should_ look!


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## AquaClaraCanines

I like that one, Emma, except the butcher job on his neck (the grooming) which sure isn't the dog's fault. I don't dig English style over all in any of my breeds (especially whippets) but I can appreciate a nice one.


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> ooh I am enjoying these sets of pictures...really showcases the werid and wonderful world of GR's (although some clearly aren't GRs!) The good, the bad and the ugly!!
> 
> To me, this is what a golden should look like...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really would love to know more about conformation but it just looks 'right' to me...also with, what looks like, the right amount/type of coat...some goldens seem to such long flowing hair that you almost have to tie it in bunches just so you can see where the dogs legs are! I would love someone, who knows about all this, to put up a comparison of a structurally fabulous dog and a horridly bred dog and actually point out the differences...I mean, I can see some dogs clearly have an odd looking structure but I would love it all pointed out to me against a dog that is a representation of how it _should_ look!


 
This dog is _clearly _a Golden Retriever, and a lovely one. He possesses BREED TYPE. There is no mistake that he is a Golden Retriever. He is of the European style, but in no way can he be mistaken for a Great Pyrenees or a Kuvasz.

How about the 2nd set of 10 photos? What do you think we have there?


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## Tahnee GR

Emma&Tilly said:


> ooh I am enjoying these sets of pictures...really showcases the werid and wonderful world of GR's (although some clearly aren't GRs!) The good, the bad and the ugly!!
> 
> To me, this is what a golden should look like...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really would love to know more about conformation but it just looks 'right' to me...also with, what looks like, the right amount/type of coat...some goldens seem to such long flowing hair that you almost have to tie it in bunches just so you can see where the dogs legs are! I would love someone, who knows about all this, to put up a comparison of a structurally fabulous dog and a horridly bred dog and actually point out the differences...I mean, I can see some dogs clearly have an odd looking structure but I would love it all pointed out to me against a dog that is a representation of how it _should_ look!


I agree! I'd give my eye teeth to own a Golden like him-he is just gorgeous!


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## AquaClaraCanines

The 2nd set some are definitely Goldens- but I think at least one is a Hovawart, though I am not sure. I have only met a few of those in the flesh.


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## Pointgold

AquaClaraCanines said:


> The 2nd set some are definitely Goldens- but I think at least one is a Hovawart, though I am not sure. I have only met a few of those in the flesh.


 
Any more guesses?


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## marieb

Wow the dog in the 7th picture looks really pigeontoed.


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## moverking

Well 7, 8, & 9 are really chubby ones whichever they are, lol.
I'd never seen a Kuvasz....wow!


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## Finn's Fan

Laura, I'll take a guess at the second set of photos:
Row 1 - poorly bred golden or a mix
Row 2 - gorgeous GR, golden/lab mix/ GR
Row 3 - Kuvasz, beautiful GR
Row 4 - overly large GR
Row 5 - Kuvasz
6th - English "creme" GR, field GR

My brother had a stunningly beautiful Kuvasz who died at ten years old. He intimidated the heck out of my nephews' friends....don't get a guard dog when you have screaming boys running around


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## Pointgold

Finn's Fan said:


> Laura, I'll take a guess at the second set of photos:
> Row 1 - poorly bred golden or a mix
> Row 2 - gorgeous GR, golden/lab mix/ GR
> Row 3 - Kuvasz, beautiful GR
> Row 4 - overly large GR
> Row 5 - Kuvasz
> 6th - English "creme" GR, field GR
> 
> My brother had a stunningly beautiful Kuvasz who died at ten years old. He intimidated the heck out of my nephews' friends....don't get a guard dog when you have screaming boys running around


 
Your guesses are noted. Anyone else?


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## marieb

I'm curious to see the answers but I'm not going to guess because I'm not sure what some of the dogs are. This is very interesting!


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## Pointgold

marieb said:


> I'm curious to see the answers but I'm not going to guess because I'm not sure what some of the dogs are. This is very interesting!


 
Your response makes it even _more _interesting to me!


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## marieb

Pointgold said:


> Your response makes it even _more _interesting to me!


Why lol? I can definitely tell that some of them are Golden Retrievers, but not sure about the others ...


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## Pointgold

marieb said:


> Why lol? I can definitely tell that some of them are Golden Retrievers, but not sure about the others ...


 
Because my interest is in the fact that if a dog cannot be recognized as the breed that it is, it lacks breed type.


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## marieb

Oh ok I understand now, yes that does make sense.


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## marieb

I have a question about Maddie, she has a lighter coat (but I didn't buy her because she had a lighter color coat and the breeder wasn't calling them a "cream" or anything like that). Her coat has been slowly darkening a bit and it's kind of a honey color - would that be considered unacceptable for the AKC standards of a golden retriever?


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## Jo Ellen

But wouldn't that only count if people knew their breeds really well? 

And isn't there a variety of golden retriever "types?" Like the "English," the field and the conformation? What about all the goldens that blurr the lines between those types? There's so much variety in the breed, I've never seen two golden retrievers that look identical.


----------



## Ash

This was very interesting! Great for us visual learners!!


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## Finn's Fan

marieb, most golden puppies are lighter in their bodies than their ear color. If you want to know what color your dog will eventually become, ear color is a good indicator. If she's a honey color, that's perfectly acceptable from an AKC point of view (and mine, personally


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## marieb

Finn's Fan said:


> marieb, most golden puppies are lighter in their bodies than their ear color. If you want to know what color your dog will eventually become, ear color is a good indicator. If she's a honey color, that's perfectly acceptable from an AKC point of view (and mine, personally


Thanks! Yeah her ears are a good bit darker than her body and her coat has been slowly darkening. I do hope that she darkens to the color of her ears because I like the color a lot.


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## Pointgold

Ash said:


> This was very interesting! Great for us visual learners!!


 
An interesting exercise. There were some good guesses on the first set of photos. As for the second set, that was much more telling. Every single one of the dogs in that set was a purebred Golden Retriever. Many of them unrecognizable to people as even being Goldens, because they are so lacking in breed type. 
Here are pictues of several different styles of Golden Retrievers, but each is definately recognizable as being a Golden:


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## MissRue

Thank you for this thread, very educational for me.


----------



## MillysMom

Emma&Tilly said:


> ooh I am enjoying these sets of pictures...really showcases the werid and wonderful world of GR's (although some clearly aren't GRs!) The good, the bad and the ugly!!
> 
> To me, this is what a golden should look like...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really would love to know more about conformation but it just looks 'right' to me...also with, what looks like, the right amount/type of coat...some goldens seem to have such long flowing hair that you almost have to tie it in bunches just so you can see where the dogs legs are! I would love someone, who knows about all this, to put up a comparison of a structurally fabulous dog and a horridly bred dog and actually point out the differences...I mean, I can see some dogs clearly have an odd looking structure but I would love it all pointed out to me against a dog that is a representation of how it _should_ look!


This is a beautiful dog! And exactly what I (and I'm sure everyone on this board) would love a puppy to grow up into!!! I'm in love!!! Would this be considered cream or blonde (blonde isn't an actual color, is it? I often hear people refer to their Golden's as blondes)? I am just amazed by this dog!!!


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## Pointgold

MissRue said:


> Thank you for this thread, very educational for me.


 
Well, it was certainly a bit "hijacked" from the original topic , but I hope that it helped to illustrate the statement -"type is the characteristic qualities distinguishing a breed - the embodiment of a standard's essentials." Any purebred dog should be readily recognizable as whatever breed he represents. To breed without consideration of type, (in addition to necessary health clearances), structure, movement, temperament, as a complete package, is to ultimately eliminate the integrity of the particular breed. When a Golden cannot be distinguished between a Great Pyrenees, or a Kuvasz, or even identified as a Golden, then it is no longer a Golden.


----------



## Pointgold

MillysMom said:


> This is a beautiful dog! And exactly what I (and I'm sure everyone on this board) would love a puppy to grow up into!!! I'm in love!!! Would this be considered cream or blonde (blonde isn't an actual color, is it? I often hear people refer to their Golden's as blondes)? I am just amazed by this dog!!!


 
THis is a beautiful example of a European Golden. It is light gold. Acceptable colors on an AKC registration slip are Light Gold, Gold, and Dark Gold. I am not sure how The Kennel Club lists them, but here, there are only the three, there is no cream, blond, platinum, white, etc.


----------



## HaliaGoldens

Pointgold said:


> Well, it was certainly a bit "hijacked" from the original topic , but I hope that it helped to illustrate the statement -"type is the characteristic qualities distinguishing a breed - the embodiment of a standard's essentials." Any purebred dog should be readily recognizable as whatever breed he represents. To breed without consideration of type, (in addition to necessary health clearances), structure, movement, temperament, as a complete package, is to ultimately eliminate the integrity of the particular breed. When a Golden cannot be distinguished between a Great Pyrenees, or a Kuvasz, or even identified as a Golden, then it is no longer a Golden.


This is an interesting point you make. However, I don't totally agree that for a dog to have good breed type, he must be readily identifiable to everyone as that breed. Many people, even some on this board who are knowledgeable, had trouble knowing that the field bred golden (who looked very typey to me) was a golden and not a chessy. My golden boy has a very wavy coat on his back, and I've had people ask me if he is a goldendoodle (I was mortified, lol). In a post on another thread, you even said that you have had many people asking you what breed your dogs are: 
"I am asked all the time what kind of dogs I have, and they are by no means light. People ask, and then say they have NEVER seen a Golden like that - their "uncle/cousin/neighbor has a Golden and it doesn't look like that - he's WAY bigger/WAY smaller, is WAY redder/WAY lighter, yada yada yada..." It's not because lighter is rare, because there are plenty of very light dogs around now, it's because people are not used to seeing a dog that meets, or is even close to, the standard." So doesn't this show that even very well-bred goldens are often mistaken for something else. I am not arguing the fact that type is severely lacking in many goldens that are bred for color alone. I just thought it was a little extreme to say that a dog that isn't identified as a golden by everyone is no longer a golden.


----------



## Pointgold

HaliaGoldens said:


> This is an interesting point you make. However, I don't totally agree that for a dog to have good breed type, he must be readily identifiable to everyone as that breed. Many people, even some on this board who are knowledgeable, had trouble knowing that the field bred golden (who looked very typey to me) was a golden and not a chessy. My golden boy has a very wavy coat on his back, and I've had people ask me if he is a goldendoodle (I was mortified, lol). In a post on another thread, you even said that you have had many people asking you what breed your dogs are:
> "I am asked all the time what kind of dogs I have, and they are by no means light. People ask, and then say they have NEVER seen a Golden like that - their "uncle/cousin/neighbor has a Golden and it doesn't look like that - he's WAY bigger/WAY smaller, is WAY redder/WAY lighter, yada yada yada..." It's not because lighter is rare, because there are plenty of very light dogs around now, it's because people are not used to seeing a dog that meets, or is even close to, the standard." So doesn't this show that even very well-bred goldens are often mistaken for something else. I am not arguing the fact that type is severely lacking in many goldens that are bred for color alone. I just thought it was a little extreme to say that a dog that isn't identified as a golden by everyone is no longer a golden.


 
My examples really had nothing to do with color. And I am also not referring to people who simply don't know the different breeds of dogs. It is very possible for a dog to be outside it's standard either way but to still possess breed type. Breed type is not just size or color. I showed examples of dogs that were completely lacking in breed type and were not able to be identified as Goldens, by people who do know the breed. People who do not recognize that my dog might be a Golden Retriever because the do not know that there is a standard for the breed and their uncle/cousin/neighbor whatever has a dog that is outside the standard and may in fact be totally lacking in breed type as well, are the very people who perpetuate the poor breeding of dogs because they purchase one, not knowing (or caring that it isn't correct) breed it, and on it goes.


----------



## Fozzybear

This is a very interesting thread. I had never heard of a Kuvasz before this. Really shows my ignorance. But I still want to know what I have won!


----------



## marieb

Wow, I can't believe all of those dogs were golden retrievers. I could easily tell that some were but a few of them I really had no idea they were golden retrievers. Thanks for the info!


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## Emma&Tilly

Pointgold said:


> THis is a beautiful example of a European Golden. It is light gold. Acceptable colors on an AKC registration slip are Light Gold, Gold, and Dark Gold. I am not sure how The Kennel Club lists them, but here, there are only the three, there is no cream, blond, platinum, white, etc.


Could a dog like that be successfully shown in the US? I am assuming that a European golden looks different to an American golden beacuse it is a slightly different interpretation of the breed standard and somewhere along the lines different feautures got emphasised and vice versa...if it was a good example of its 'type' could it still be successful in the US? (where that 'type' isn't as common)


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> Could a dog like that be successfully shown in the US? I am assuming that a European golden looks different to an American golden beacuse it is a slightly different interpretation of the breed standard and somewhere along the lines different feautures got emphasised and vice versa...if it was a good example of its 'type' could it still be successful in the US? (where that 'type' isn't as common)


It could be very successful under certain judges. This dog is not the "extreme" that some people have been importing into the US from Romania, Poland, Russia, etc. 

Where you are using "type" I would use "style".


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## Emma&Tilly

Pointgold said:


> Where you are using "type" I would use "style".


:doh: arrrrgh! See, I have learnt nothing...! lol


----------



## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> :doh: arrrrgh! See, I have learnt nothing...! lol


 
 Okay, here - The dog that we were discussing, is a beautiful dog of the European style, OOZING breed type!


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## AquaClaraCanines

He would be groomed and handled differently here, too, which makes a shocking difference, too! It's amazing how much "better" UK dogs look to me groomed and handled American style.


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## Emma&Tilly

Jenna, what are the main differences in the way the coat would be groomed?...I had always assumed that European goldens tended to have shorter and slightly more wavy coats and therefore it would be difficult for them to look the way american show goldens tend to look as they seem to have much longer, straighter coats....Goldens that I see out and about that haven't been groomed/trimmed at all, to me, don't look that different to what you would see in a UK show ring (to my very untrained eye!) Granted I have only been to one championship show but I didn't think the goldens looked all that 'groomed'...what is it that is done differently over here?

ooh yes and what do you mean by the 'handling'...is that just the way they trot round the ring? How is that different?


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> Jenna, what are the main differences in the way the coat would be groomed?...I had always assumed that European goldens tended to have shorter and slightly more wavy coats and therefore it would be difficult for them to look the way american show goldens tend to look as they seem to have much longer, straighter coats....Goldens that I see out and about that haven't been groomed/trimmed at all, to me, don't look that different to what you would see in a UK show ring (to my very untrained eye!) Granted I have only been to one championship show but I didn't think the goldens looked all that 'groomed'...what is it that is done differently over here?
> 
> ooh yes and what do you mean by the 'handling'...is that just the way they trot round the ring? How is that different?


In the UK they strip the necks out more than ACC likes. I have no problem with it at all. Our standard asks for little grooming (hahaha) though, and what is done should look as if it weren't! LOL

Here is a dog that is impeccably groomed, "American Style". 
http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=196766


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## Emma&Tilly

ooh what a beautiful dog! The coat of the 'American style' golden looks so much softer and almost looks like plush velvet to me! I think I would have to get the hair straightners out to get Tillys coat to look like that!

oh wow...the 'Birnan wood' website is fab!


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> ooh what a beautiful dog! The coat of the 'American style' golden looks so much softer and almost looks like plush velvet to me! I think I would have to get the hair straightners out to get Tillys coat to look like that!
> 
> oh wow...the 'Birnan wood' website is fab!


 
Gibson is Tommy's Daddy.  

Make a pot of tea and spend a couple of hours there... the history and articles, as well as ads, are incredible. I get lost in it.


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## HaliaGoldens

AquaClaraCanines said:


> He would be groomed and handled differently here, too, which makes a shocking difference, too! It's amazing how much "better" UK dogs look to me groomed and handled American style.


That's funny...I have a bitch that I got in Holland, and since I show her here in the US, I groom her in the American style, leaving the neck fur long, etc. And her breeder is always telling me how much better she would look if I trimmed her like they do over there. Go figure!


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## Pointgold

HaliaGoldens said:


> That's funny...I have a bitch that I got in Holland, and since I show her here in the US, I groom her in the American style, leaving the neck fur long, etc. And her breeder is always telling me how much better she would look if I trimmed her like they do over there. Go figure!


 
I like a neck stripped out. Not quite as much as they do in Europe, but definately not left ungroomed. It is rare to see a dog in AKC shows whose neck is not at least thinned out.


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## Finn's Fan

Laura, in your second set of photos, that number 8 photo is a carbon copy of a mixed breed dog I owned who was half golden retriever and half Great Pyrenees. In the photo of three dogs in a row, the middle dog's head is a perfect mix of lab and golden. I totally agree with your premise that some folks can't identify a golden when they see one because they've never actually seen a properly bred golden! Makes me insane........


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## Finn's Fan

Not to beat a dead horse, but does anyone know why White Dove Ranch hasn't been shut down? A puppy mill by any other name....


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## Kohanagold

I missed the fun! LOL. But I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in too, if that's okay. Very interesting thread and I couldn't agree more about the type arguement and if a dog doesn't LOOK golden.... You should be able to take a dog and turn it into a silhouette and be able to distinguish it as a golden if it embodies true golden TYPE. As far as people recognizing it as such, I guess it makes a difference if they are golden people or not. Passing somebody on the street and having them ask if my dog is a golden or other breed wouldn't worry me, really. I dont think that has anything to do with it. But for somebody that knows the breed and the standard for the breed should recognize a golden as a golden if it's true to type (or any other breed really). Just my 0.02. BJ


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## AquaClaraCanines

I agree w/you BJ... I have had people tell me show type (very beautiful, very clearly well bred Goldens) I have been walking were not "full Golden" because they only type they'd ever seen were red headed BYB dogs. Or the opposite. In the UK I was told my Golden, who was the exact same color as the typical blonde American show Golden, couldn't be a Golden because she was so "dark" and really she was not dark, just a nice medium Golden color. Where as in the states, she was usually the lightest Golden on a walk or at the dog park... so it really depends where someone is from, and what his background is. Some people just don't know dogs. My Whippets are both of exceptional quality, and in the middle of the size standard *exactly* and I am always asked what they are, or told they're "too big" or "too small" by people who are confusing them with Greyhounds or IGs.

Regarding the difference in showing and handling, it's not just grooming. I see it in Whippets also where grooming is so minimal as to not be visable in photos or from ringside... in the UK they tend to put a hand under the dog's chin and hold the head up with the nose somewhat pointed to the sky, which is not particularly flattering to the front and neck of many Whippets. In the US, Whippet folks put the collar under the dog's throat and bait his head downward to arch the neck and show ears.


----------



## vrocco1

Pointgold said:


> An interesting exercise. There were some good guesses on the first set of photos. As for the second set, that was much more telling. Every single one of the dogs in that set was a purebred Golden Retriever. Many of them unrecognizable to people as even being Goldens, because they are so lacking in breed type.
> Here are pictues of several different styles of Golden Retrievers, but each is definately recognizable as being a Golden:


See, now I thought the first one was the Fierce Tasmanian **********.


----------



## Pointgold

AquaClaraCanines said:


> I agree w/you BJ... I have had people tell me show type (very beautiful, very clearly well bred Goldens) I have been walking were not "full Golden" because they only type they'd ever seen were red headed BYB dogs. Or the opposite. In the UK I was told my Golden, who was the exact same color as the typical blonde American show Golden, couldn't be a Golden because she was so "dark" and really she was not dark, just a nice medium Golden color. Where as in the states, she was usually the lightest Golden on a walk or at the dog park... so it really depends where someone is from, and what his background is. Some people just don't know dogs. My Whippets are both of exceptional quality, and in the middle of the size standard *exactly* and I am always asked what they are, or told they're "too big" or "too small" by people who are confusing them with Greyhounds or IGs.
> 
> Regarding the difference in showing and handling, it's not just grooming. I see it in Whippets also where grooming is so minimal as to not be visable in photos or from ringside... in the UK they tend to put a hand under the dog's chin and hold the head up with the nose somewhat pointed to the sky, which is not particularly flattering to the front and neck of many Whippets. In the US, Whippet folks put the collar under the dog's throat and bait his head downward to arch the neck and show ears.


 
The UK style of handling is they way dogs in the US used to be shown. Hounds and Gundogs both in particular were presented that way. As for grooming Whippets, stipping and using thinning shears on hair whorls and anyplace where it is evident (rear, chest, neck etc) and chalking and painting shouldn't be noticed, and technically, shouldn't even be done. Dogs in the US are "overgroomed" for all intents and purposes.  There are very few breeds in the US that are truly shown "naturally", although they should be. The PBGC is a perfect example - when first recognized by the AKC the talk was that they would definately be shown "au naturale" (other than minimal "tidying" around the eyes) and that the PBGV people were insistent that they be. Now, they are stripped and trimmed and moussed and chalked like every other breed, and it has certainly gone beyond "tidying"...


----------



## Pointgold

vrocco1 said:


> See, now I thought the first one was the Fierce Tasmanian **********.


You and Fozzybear are both absolute geniuses and you BOTH win. Please send me a check in the amount of $100.00 each, to cover S/H of your prizes. (they are very BIG prizes...)


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## AquaClaraCanines

Awww PBGVs are so cute!!! 

I never EVER chalked my Whippet before showing him or having him shown, nor did the breeder of this dog or the owner of his sire chalk any of their dogs. It used to boggle my mind the stuff I saw people doing to Whippets! Including eye liner (!!!!!!!!!) which I also never used, or needed to!!! All that I ever did to my Whippet was remove his whiskers (I still do... lol I like the smooth look) and shave out the ear fuzz. My older one has a VERY short, close coat (even for a Whippet) and never even needed his tail neatened. Some, indeed, do get trimmed a bit. 

Yeah, it's really neat to look back at old Whippet win shots from the 60s and 70s and see the dogs presented the old way. They look ewe necked and awful when compared to non win shot photos of the same dogs posing in a more typical "Whippet pose" or just natural.


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## telsmith1

PG, what would you say about this girl. This is my 7 month old (not rare, not white) but full English pedigreed girl. Does she fit the type (other than having no coat)? The pictures aren't great but gives you an idea. I am trying to sell her cause I need a new boy.


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## AquaClaraCanines

She's a cutie! Congrats on your other girl's dock diving accomplishments. I bet that's so much fun.


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## telsmith1

AquaClaraCanines said:


> She's a cutie! Congrats on your other girl's dock diving accomplishments. I bet that's so much fun.


Thanks! It is a blast!


----------



## Pointgold

telsmith1 said:


> PG, what would you say about this girl. This is my 7 month old (not rare, not white) but full English pedigreed girl. Does she fit the type (other than having no coat)? The pictures aren't great but gives you an idea. I am trying to sell her cause I need a new boy.


It is an awful age to look at a puppy. But, she definately is the European "style", and is easily recognizable as being a Golden, so does have type.


----------



## vrocco1

Pointgold said:


> You and Fozzybear are both absolute geniuses and you BOTH win. Please send me a check in the amount of $100.00 each, to cover S/H of your prizes. (they are very BIG prizes...)


I think that I have a "type". The problem is that it is the "Wine-O" type, rather then the breed type.


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## Pointgold

vrocco1 said:


> I think that I have a "type". The problem is that it is the "Wine-O" type, rather then the breed type.


 
I'm on it... 

(I would be IN it if I weren't so sick with a horrible cold...)


----------



## vrocco1

Pointgold said:


> I'm on it...
> 
> (I would be IN it if I weren't so sick with a horrible cold...)


Hmmmmm Got any Brandy in the house? That is the cure for the common cold in my sick mind. :crossfing


----------



## Pointgold

vrocco1 said:


> Hmmmmm Got any Brandy in the house? That is the cure for the common cold in my sick mind. :crossfing


 
I do. May I consider this post a presciption, Doctor? :crossfing:crossfing


----------



## MillysMom

Pointgold said:


> Judy Taylor and her twin sister, Jennifer Macauley were top breeders and handlers in Canada when I was showing Lyric there in the 80's. As I recall, they first bred Goldens under the Crys-haefen prefix, and then Judy bought Skylon. How it has been managed and kept is a mystery to me, I haven't shown in Canada for several years. But I can't think of a lot of current dogs bred by reputable breeders using the Skylon name.


I think one of the Skylon dogs I was thinking of was http://www.starcrownedgoldens.com/ Gulliver--If you click on his photo it takes you to the Skylon website. Would that be this breeder just using Skylon's dog as the stud for this litter?


----------



## AmbikaGR

MillysMom said:


> Would that be this breeder just using Skylon's dog as the stud for this litter?


Yes it would be just that. However Gulliver was not bred by Judy, he is owned by Judy. If you look at his pedigree there are no Skylon dogs behind him. And Gulliver's parents are both bred out of North America. One is British and one is Australian. Not that there is anything wrong with that, just an observation.


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## MillysMom

Thank you so much. I was wondering about that. I'm still very new to dog pedigrees, and my only real comparison is my knowledge of breeding horses.


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## kaluhaflynn

I was actually an employee at Skylon Kennels for the past few years. (Not now because I am moving out of province) and I will tell you this. The dogs and puppies are actually all quite incredible. Judy has been breeding for a long time. And as for everyones ear of so many litters, the reason it goes well is because of the employees. She always has at least 3 that spend an enormous amount of time with the puppies. I will recommend anyone getting a dog from there. Just for future reference.


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## esSJay

When a breeder has to hire employees to care for all of the puppies, it means that they have too much on the go!


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## kaluhaflynn

*Skylon*

I would agree with you.


----------



## kaluhaflynn

*skylon puppies*



marshmellow said:


> I want to be certain that were talking about the same breeder. Is the location of Skylon in Ontario Canada? If it is, this is where I adopted my dog from. Yes , she does have alot of dogs...some are in outdoor pens..some run around the area with the hired help. Some of the dogs there, are older becasue people have returned them, unable to care for them. In her contract , if you are unable to look after the dog , she is to take back responsibility of the dog. Not everyone can or wants to handle a retriever.
> So far Garcia has been amazing..he's gorgeous. He's 1 year old this November and in great health and temperment of an angel...lol....
> Any more questions...feel free to ask


The dogs in the outdoor pens arent out there all the time anyway. Last year 2008 she did have an abundance of puppies and that was obviously not on purpose. I love the Skylon goldens!


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## Jersey's Mom

kaluhaflynn said:


> The dogs in the outdoor pens arent out there all the time anyway. Last year 2008 she did have an abundance of puppies and that was obviously not on purpose. I love the Skylon goldens!


How exactly does one _accidentally_ have an abundance of puppies? 

Julie and Jersey


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## kaluhaflynn

*pupy abundance*

Um, you have 3 bitches that were all possibly in whelp and they each deliver 13-15 that live? That would be an abundance.


----------



## esSJay

So the bitches got pregnant 'accidentally'? They must have known that they were breeding 3 at a time. Either way, neither answer is any better than the other.


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## goldenlovegoldens

I have been reading the posts and I cannot believe it! I got my puppy from Skylon. Judy Taylor was incredibly helpful and knowledgable. All of her dogs seemed in very good health. All of the puppies were clean, and appeared very happy. My little girl is doing incredibly well!! I had a few questions after getting her so I called Judy. Each time she was wonderful! When I was there they were finishing remodeling the kennel. I went down and took a look around. Everything was clean, nothing smelled and all the dogs I met were incredibly nice. - not shy, dirty or scared. Unfortunatly some people have had bad experiences, but things do happen. My experience was incredible and I would recommend anyone get a dog from her. Also, of the many puppies, all of them seemed incredibly well socialized. Another thing I noticed when looking for a pup, is that almost every kennel has extra help, and thats good for the dogs. People just usually dont see them. I will be bringing my puppy back if she ever needs to be boarded. I was most impressed with Skylon out of every kennel I looked at. And when the time comes when we decide to get another dog, it will be another Skylon retriever. just thought people should know. another thing I noticed was that most kennels have more litters than they advertise. Mrs Taylor is just being honest on the website.


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## Pointgold

I have never known a kennel to have more litters than advertised. Unless they are litters that are already sold. And most kennels don't have puppies available - they may advertise upcoming breedings, but most reputable kennels don't make breedings without having homes waiting.


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## kaluhaflynn

Has anyone ever seen a bitch go into season without the bloody discharge? I've seen it a few times.


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## starcrwn

*Uh Oh*

:uhoh: Guess I'm one of those bad "kennels" then.

If having 100% of buyers lined up with $$ in hand before ever breeding were a mandatory requirement, then I'd never have had any litters.

Of course, I don't have a "kennel". I have a house. So maybe I'm exempt? 

Karen


----------



## arcane

I know of breeders that have litters they don't post on their websites. I myself, have done a breeding where I have a fair amount of deposits /reservations on board prior to the breeding. However I prefer to only take 6 before whelping, as I hate disappointing people, if I don't have a puppy for them. So...there are times I have large litters and have puppies unspoken for upon whelping....To date, I have never had a puppy unsold @ 9 wks. KNOCK ON WOOD!


----------



## Pointgold

starcrwn said:


> :uhoh: Guess I'm one of those bad "kennels" then.
> 
> If having 100% of buyers lined up with $$ in hand before ever breeding were a mandatory requirement, then I'd never have had any litters.
> 
> Of course, I don't have a "kennel". I have a house. So maybe I'm exempt?
> 
> Karen


I didn't say it was "mandatory", I simply said I don't know of breeders who have litters that they don't list on their sites. Nor did I say it was "bad". I just don't know anyone who does that. As for having a "kennel", it's a pretty generalized nomenclature referring to those who breed using a kennel prefix.


----------



## starcrwn

*reputable*

You didn't use "bad" (my interpretation), you used reputable. If you don't behave reputably (have sellers lined up before breeding), then the obvious implication is you are not reputable.


----------



## Pointgold

starcrwn said:


> You didn't use "bad" (my interpretation), you used reputable. If you don't behave reputably (have sellers lined up before breeding), then the obvious implication is you are not reputable.


 
Since for whatever reason you want to pick apart what I posted, please don't overlook the fact that I qualified my statements with the word "most". There are obvious exceptions to every "rule".


----------



## Kohanagold

kaluhaflynn said:


> Has anyone ever seen a bitch go into season without the bloody discharge? I've seen it a few times.


Paige came in on Wedsnesday and so far, very little blood. I probably wouldn't have noticed except that I've been watching very carefully, and checked her with a tissue. I knew it was coming and this was the latest she's ever been (by a week, so not super late, but some). Or, maybe she's just doing a better job of keeping it clean, but there's been no spots on the floor like there normally would be, and nothing in her feathers which had happened occationally. But I dont think silent heats are super uncommon, but from my perspective, certainly not desirable... That would drive me crazy! BJ


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## sit stay

*Bad kennel to deal with "skylon"*

Stay away from Skylon Kennel She is a Horrible person to deal with.She dosen,t honor her Guarantee at all. You will be STUCK with the Puppy and all related health costs.I just went down this road with her .My Pup will have health problems the rest of her life.Lesson Learned!!!She get her back up if you ask her any Question about related health problems. I still shake my head when I read she is a judge.


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## Zuri's Mom

MillysMom said:


> Can anyone tell me about these two breeders. I am looking for a puppy, and a friend purchased one from Silvermine.
> 
> I've been recommended to Skylon from some people on the Chronicle of the Horse online forum (like this but for horses), and wanted to hear the good and bad of this breeder. I've been emailing with Judy and she sounds very nice, but I am a little concerned at the # of litters she has each year. However, I do have friends in South Carolina that breed labs for field trials, and have some of the top labs in the country and have numerous litters a year too. So, I don't know if I should be alarmed at the high number of litters, or not.
> 
> Her dogs on the website do look beautiful. Any thoughts on either of these breeders would be great. I currently have an American red golden, and would really like to get an English (love the thicker look) and preferably a cream female.


I purchased a puppy from Silvermine Kennels in 2008. She has elbow dysplasia in both front elbows. She has been on Rimadyl and Tramadol (pain medication) for 3.5 years. She is now 5 years old. I would not recommend purchasing a puppy from this Silvermine Kennel. How they stand behind their dogs is they will let you "return" a genetically defective puppy to them, they kill them, and they will gladly send you a new one. Not my idea of an ethical breeder.


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## sit stay

We have two Goldens out of Skylon and they are both working out fine.


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## jsflowers0

*Do not buy from skylon kennels! - it is a puppy mill!*

CRIMINAL PUPPY MILL THAT ABUSES THE DOGS AND BREEDS DOGS WITH MASSIVE HEALTH ISSUES! HIP DYSPLASIA, HEART DEFECTS & MURMURS, LICE, ANXIETY, TUMOURS, SKIN ISSUES, and so much more! DO NOT BUY A DOG FROM THIS KENNEL! IT SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN!!!!

Would have put ZERO Stars if possible!

My best friend bought her golden retriever from this revolting puppy mill (only because she paid in advance and had no choice. and she had endless problems. The puppy came home with her COVERED in lice! Head to toe! and the owner told her - that is totally "totally normal" (IT ISN'T!) and to get heart worm/flea/tick meds from the vet and that would clear it up, but the vet wouldn't do that because of how young the puppy was and told my friend that puppies should never get the meds the owner recommended. On top of that the puppy was taken from her mom WAY too early and as a result has severe anxiety and is scared of everything despite years of hard work on my friends part to comfort her and make her more secure, she has improved greatly. 

Finally, saving the worst for last the puppy was limping and could barely walk by 8 months of age. X-Rays showed that she had severe hip dysplasia and if she didn't have it fixed she would be totally immobile before she was 1years old - this poor puppy had to get FULL HIP REPLACEMENT SURGERY BEFORE SHE WAS 10 MONTHS OLD! The vet said that there was no way the mother and father could have actually been tested for hip soundness given the terrible state of the puppy's hips. It was HORRIBLE! The surgery cost $10,000 and the owner of the kennel just said to "send her back and we will give you a new puppy" like it was a sweater you didn't have feelings for. She didn't do anything to help with the surgery or the dog's care. She didn't even want to return the cost of the dog and only returned a portion after my friend threatened to sue her which I think she should have done given how much she ended up spending to care for this puppy. 

The dog is a sweet and lovely pup but she has endless health issues, a heart murmur, tumours growing on her eye lids causing bleeding and discharge, chronic ear issues, the list continues. The dog is in on medication to help with her hims that is expensive as all get out, and the list of issues and expenses goes on and on and on. It is devastating. 

The kennel is a gross abusive puppy mill! There is no other way to describe it. When my friend went out to see the dogs she said she was shocked at the condition of the farm and how the dogs were treated. She had paid a deposit before visiting that was non refundable which meant she either had to walk away for her money or continue with the purchase and risk it while supporting a breeder she knew she shouldn't support. That is how this kennel runs their business - sneaky, criminally, and dirty practices. She demands deposits before the puppies are even born to get on her wait list and refuses to return it for any reason! Its totally revolting. 

This puppy mill just pumps out as many puppies as they can, they rip puppies away from their mothers and leave them at 4 weeks old shivering in the mud and rain alone and scared. My friend said when she visited a litter of tiny puppies that were put out in the freezing cold rain into a mud filled pen had crawl under the house in search of some kind of protection, you can see in the picture 2 puppies that are covered in mud - they were alone, it was only 5 degrees out, pouring rain and the puppies were shivering and so scared. it is GROSS ABUSE! If you buy from this kennel you are supporting a criminal!


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