# Thoughts on Dog Whisperer Techniques?



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

My problem with TV trainers is people see what is done on TV and then "try" using the same method on their dog, regardless of it being appropriate for their dog and whether they actually understand how to do that method correctly. 

About the trainer - it would depend on what this person advocates and his level of understanding as far as handling dogs and differentiating between what type of training one dog needs as opposed to another dog, as well as what the owner can handle vs what can be misused or abused by an angry or exasperated owner.

If he is alpha pinning every dog, screaming at the dogs, pinching the dogs, yanking the dogs, and using other methods to "break" a dog and make it always submit to the owner... I would steer clear. 

You understand that the mouthing behavior is play to the puppy. It isn't aggression or the puppy trying to be your alpha or your other dog's alpha. 

With goldens - back when we still had two intact males, they loved wrestling with each other. That's how they play. Lots of mouthing and noise. And they would take turns being top dog - with top dog trying to pin the bottom dog and the bottom dog taking the top dog down by going after his legs. There is a lot of mouthing and gumming, and that is how they play. And even if a golden is an alpha (the older dog generally assumed that role), he would still flip on his back and mouth the feet and belly of the "top dog" while the other dog gummed at his neck.

I know that people who watch the Dog Whisperer tend to come away thinking that any mouthing or sassing means their puppy is aggressive and/or trying to dominate them. Which (to me) is a major league misread. There are plenty of very nice dogs out there who while young and excitable try to interact/play with their owners by using their teeth.

Personally speaking, I think that every puppy needs to have a very positive but common sense training approach as far as the owner surviving the shark stage. If they are biting, then I think it needs to be corrected. And it needs to be quick and decisive and followed up with a positive reinforcement when the puppy backs off to have the right effect. And even there, it takes time for the puppy to get the idea that when you use a certain tone the mouthing has to stop and it's an unacceptable behavior. 

I would hope you go with one of those instructors who might be 99% positive while also training certain corrective methods for those puppies who require a firmer hand to calm them down.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

I agree with Megora's comments. You have to keep in mind, dogs the Milan works with for the most part are extremely aggressive, dangerous ADULT dogs that need some kind of intervention to stop the aggressive behavior.

Your puppy is NOT aggressive, he is a normal puppy playing the way he would with littermates. It is not appropriate for human skin of course, one of the best methods to help with the teeth on skin is to always have a dog toy to actually put in his mouth. "No bite", put the toy in his mouth, "good puppy". 

It just takes time for the puppies to learn no teeth on skin. In the meantime you will have to supervise every minute with your daughter and either put a toy in his mouth, or remove him if he is too wound up and not playing nicely.

I would suggest locating a couple of dog trainers in your area and interview them to find a trainer that uses positive methods, and you feel knows how to teach you and your family to work with your puppy without punishment techniques.

It will get better.


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## DaniK (Jul 4, 2011)

Thank you both. I'm not overly concerned about Bertie's behaviour....I know that mouthing is all part of puppy behaviour which he'll grow out of. But whilst he only occasionally nips husband and I, he seems to take advantage of Annabel a little more and nips rather than licks or mouths her. We're trying to get Annabel to sound more assertive with Bertie when he does nip and of course, they are always under supervision.
In terms of his relationship with Mollie, I think we're being cautious because Bertie is already taller than her...although when they play in the garden, she can roll him over easily. We're letting them figure out their pack behaviour for themselves whilst maintaining a watchful eye in them. But she was in the house first and there's a pecking order to be maintained!
From what I read this morning about Caesar Milan, it's not the sort of thing I want to go for. I've never watched one of his programmes buut it was something husband and I were talking about yesterday as the neighbours who had in the local "dog whisperer" were so very pleased with the results. Having said that, they have 2 mad springer spaniels who don't get walked enough so I guess that's where their problems arose. 
I would rather raise a dog in a positive manner, expecting to mainly get positive behaviour back. Commonsense would tell me that any form of aggressive behaviour from humans towards dogs, can only teach the dog aggression in return. I may be wrong but that's my take on it.
Dani


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

The vet we had when we first got Mojo (key word here is "had") was a HUGE Dog Whisperer fan. 

She taught us, while Mojo was still VERY young to pinch the inside of his mouth on the bottom with our fingernail to get him to stop mouthing. The idea was to make him squeal. As she put it, "if he bites me, I'll bite back."

Yeah.

She also said if he ever showed aggression around food that we had to string him up by his collar so his two front paws dangled off the ground. You know, to show him that we're the boss.

Oh, and she also showed us the infamous alpha roll/pin. Just hold him down until he stops squealing or growling... it could take ten or fifteen minutes!

Now. I am extremely ashamed to say that we tried all of these. I was a new puppy owner and she was my vet... I trusted her, even though I always felt this was wrong. 

We turned Mojo, a sweet and normal puppy into a MONSTER. When he would eat we'd play with his food and his body and it got to the point where we couldn't even touch him without him snarling and going berserk, so we'd try pinning him, which just made it even worse. This was while the poor guy was trying to eat.

We couldn't do it anymore. The pinching, stringing up by the collar, pinning... I wrote a long and descriptive review about the vet and her methods right after getting all of our records and finding a new vet who, surprise! doesn't agree with the negative reinforcement. 

We started leaving Mojo alone when he would eat. When he would mouth we would quietly put him in his kennel for a minute or two (and it worked!) ... No more of the alpha dog crap.

Now we can pet Mojo, braid his hair, clean his ears, put our fingers in his eyes, our hands in his mouth... whatever... when he eats. Weird how that works... weird how he's calm when he knows he's not going to get throttled. 

 By the way... I think about the stuff we did every. single. day... I will never forgive myself for it. It makes me sad to know that she's probably still telling every dog owner all this stuff and they're out there doing it.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

Mssjnnfer said:


> The vet we had when we first got Mojo (key word here is "had") was a HUGE Dog Whisperer fan.
> 
> She taught us, while Mojo was still VERY young to pinch the inside of his mouth on the bottom with our fingernail to get him to stop mouthing. The idea was to make him squeal. As she put it, "if he bites me, I'll bite back."
> 
> ...


These are NOT Cesar Milan's methods at all. I have learned a lot from Cesar Milan's methods and understanding more about dogs. Like another person on here said, it's a tv show, it's edited and yes Cesar shows more on the aggressive nature rather than the simple training many of us are seeking for our puppies. We cannot take his methods literally. I believe that Cesar is teaching us if we don't exercise our dogs and provide them with some basic obedience training then YES, we could end up with a frustrated, high energy dog that could be interpreted as 'aggressive' to the untrained eye.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> She taught us, while Mojo was still VERY young to pinch the inside of his mouth on the bottom with our fingernail to get him to stop mouthing. The idea was to make him squeal. As she put it, "if he bites me, I'll bite back."


This is the tongue press. 

And probably another example of training an actually effective method to everyone that can be misused by those who don't quite understand how to do it correctly. 

If a puppy goes to bite your hand, the tongue press very quickly makes that an unpleasant thing. 

Another method is to hook a finger around a tooth and hold onto it for a moment. Which is an unpleasant thing for the puppy who likes to nip but not necessarily have his teeth hooked on anything. 

The problem with the misuse or abuse of both of these methods is it will most definitely teach a puppy to either be handshy or you will have spunkier puppies turning this into a game where they are nipping and evading the hands. 

The same thing is true with the alpha pin. It can be effective in breaking up puppy rage and calming an overexcited puppy down long enough for you to praise and reward that puppy. But at the same time in the dog world the pin is akin to a dog taking his jaw and pinning another dog to the ground with it. And if that other dog does not submit, he will have his neck torn into. 

When misused or abused, you have puppies who get panicked or enraged by stupid owner pinning them all the time, and they learn to snap at or evade hands. 

Another method is the scruff shake. This is where you take the sides of a dog's neck in your hands and give it a sharp shake with a sharp "NO". This has the same idea as a alpha pin. In the dog world it is a warning and a threat of what will come if the other dog does not back down. 

Again, if misused and abused, this teaches the dog to snap at hands and become hand shy.

The other thing is the low deep corrective voice when correcting dogs. On one hand this simulates the warning growl or snarl of a dog before it attacks a challenger. It is intended to get a dog's attention and break up a bad behavior immediately. 

But abused and misused, and you have dogs who become fearful of loud deep voices. Or they learn to tune out their shouting owners.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Cesar teaching technique.
Get the dog over threshold, have him fail and then either hang him, pin him, or kick him.





 
make sure you watch him kick the golden at 2:47, 2:48 on the video.


The dogs shut down, and/or learn not to trust their owner. Many Dog behaviorist and trainers see Cesar's Way as a major step backward in our ability to have a great relationship with our dogs.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Deb_Bayne said:


> These are NOT Cesar Milan's methods at all.


Was going to say myself that I have watched quite a bit of Cesar Milan and I have never seen him talk about or use that method of training.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Solinviticus, I watched those videos. I didn't see Cesar kicking the dogs, not the way we might think of kicking when we hear the word. He was touching them with his foot in that area. I didn't see any of those dogs yelp or cry out in pain, or even react negatively in any way. Seemed to me to be more of an interruption or redirection than anything painful or abusive.

I'm not pro or anti Cesar, btw. I can see how someone might interpret his methods and change them to suit their own styles if they don't understand what he's doing. Like with the "kicking."

To the OP, you don't need to use negative means to train your new puppy. Pain is not necessary at all. Just a ton of supervision at this stage and redirection. A lot of these types of puppy behaviors will resolve naturally with a bit of maturity. Please don't think that because you have a mouthy/bitey puppy now that you have to do something drastic or he will grow up that way.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

solinvictus said:


> Cesar teaching technique.
> Get the dog over threshold, have him fail and then either hang him, pin him, or kick him.
> 
> ‪Cesar Millan kicking dogs‬‏ - YouTube
> ...


Ok, maybe it's just me, but he is not KICKING the dogs in those videos.

How much force could you possible get using your OPPOSITE foot from behind your other leg. Seriously. LOL.

He is simply giving the dogs a firm tap to get their attention. It's not like he is full out giving the dogs a boot in the stomach as hard as he can.

There is a HUGE difference between what he is doing, and someone who is actually abusing an animal.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

" I didn't see Cesar kicking the dogs, not the way we might think of kicking when we hear the word. He was touching them with his foot in that area. I didn't see any of those dogs yelp or cry out in pain, or even react negatively in any way"

When I touch my dog my dog doesn't jump away from me and move into a position as many of these dogs did. He may not have kicked most of them hard enough for them to yelp but they pretty much showed fear.

I don't know about anyone else but I don't want my dog to be fearful of me. And in most cases when dogs are reacting it is due to some type of fear so by doing these things it just adds to the fears they already have.

Now let the john q publics do as Cesar does. Cesar has had a lot of practice kicking those dogs. Do you think jqp's kicks, hangings, and pinnings will be gentler? Of course his show states do not do what I do but how does that work out in the real world.


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## DaniK (Jul 4, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> To the OP, you don't need to use negative means to train your new puppy. Pain is not necessary at all. Just a ton of supervision at this stage and redirection. A lot of these types of puppy behaviors will resolve naturally with a bit of maturity. Please don't think that because you have a mouthy/bitey puppy now that you have to do something drastic or he will grow up that way.


To be honest, I had no idea about CM's methods of retraining - it was merely because our neighbours had been so enthusiastic about it that husband and I wanted to find out more. The "dog whisperer" title sounds so gentle and kind, doesn't it?!
Sounds like it's not really the method for us.....we'd rather teach on a positive basis with lots of rewards, love and praise. That was how we taught our 2 previous dogs and they grew out of the bitey phase, as I know Bertie will in due course.


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## Feldenak (May 8, 2011)

It's a TV show that I'll watch occasionally because it shows such a variety of breeds. I'm no trainer, not even remotely close, but it always seems like he works with fear. Maybe he's different when not on camera but I never really see a partnership between him & the dogs. I see dogs that seem to be afraid of him.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have watched a lot of CM's shows. Whether you want to call it a bump with a leg or a kick, in any case the dogs are afraid of his leg coming toward them... they promptly move out of the way. Now, you take my six and the last reaction they would have is fear when my leg comes close. I just don't chose to create a relationship with my dogs based on fear or pain avoidance. And that is why I have goldens and not another breed.

He also subscribes to that whole alpha thing. There is not an alpha dog in my six and I don't create an alpha attitude over them. They all eat side by side, they all go out together thru the door at the same time, etc There is no snarling among them..there are no dog fights and they love people.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Definitely can't relate to Cesar's alpha thing. There isn't an ounce of alpha in Daisy, maybe it's the breed, I don't know. But I have never approached training her with that concept, we have no issues with that at all. And I think if I did have a dog with alpha issues, I would fail miserably LOL ... because I'm not an alpha kind of thinker myself. I want to live comfortably with my dog, not in a one-up kind of dynamic.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Whether you want to call it a bump with a leg or a kick, in any case the dogs are afraid of his leg coming toward them... they promptly move out of the way. Now, you take my six and the last reaction they would have is fear when my leg comes close. I just don't chose to create a relationship with my dogs based on fear or pain avoidance.


I was debating comment when the kicking thing came up earlier. I am not able to watch videos here at work, so I have no idea what CM did. But... I do know some trainers use nudge or kick methods to teach or train various things. Heck. I've used some of the methods in training (like a little toe nudge to encourage quicker finishes, or a toe nudge to fix a crooked sit on fronts, etc...). 

There are different levels and at the mildest they don't always make a dog fearful of the owner. Not any more than goosing your dog or tagging him or smacking him on the rump with a toy and running would make him fearful. 

There are reasonable methods of training different things with different dogs. But they are not required or even advisable for every Fido out there. And I think it's horrific that anyone who show random couch potato trainers any method like that. Watching on TV, can you tell the difference between a nudge and a kick?


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

The "kicking" video kind of bothered me. I agree that they were obviously not full on kicks, but I would be absolutely mortified if my dog ever responded to me like those dogs are responding to him. Half of them are in a fear state/above threshold to begin with, and the push with the foot (into the stomach area at that) is obviously enough to get them to slink away/react with fear or alarm. This is not the positive redirection that you should be aiming for. Regardless of whether or not it's a "kick", I still feel it's an unfair method of dealing with the situation. I'm just kind of having an emotional response though because I can't imagine how I would feel if I saw my dog respond so negatively to a training tactic. 

Millan has some good points in theory, such as his recommendations for consistent exercise and training people rather than dogs. The philosophy is not necessarily bad, but the execution is fuzzy at best and seemingly dangerous at worst. Definitely not necessary for basic puppy training, but you seem to have figured that out on your own =)


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

DaniK said:


> Thank you both. I'm not overly concerned about Bertie's behaviour....I know that mouthing is all part of puppy behaviour which he'll grow out of. But whilst he only occasionally nips husband and I, he seems to take advantage of Annabel a little more and nips rather than licks or mouths her. We're trying to get Annabel to sound more assertive with Bertie when he does nip and of course, they are always under supervision.
> In terms of his relationship with Mollie, I think we're being cautious because Bertie is already taller than her...although when they play in the garden, she can roll him over easily. We're letting them figure out their pack behaviour for themselves whilst maintaining a watchful eye in them. But she was in the house first and there's a pecking order to be maintained!
> From what I read this morning about Caesar Milan, it's not the sort of thing I want to go for. I've never watched one of his programmes buut it was something husband and I were talking about yesterday as the neighbours who had in the local "dog whisperer" were so very pleased with the results. Having said that, they have 2 mad springer spaniels who don't get walked enough so I guess that's where their problems arose.
> I would rather raise a dog in a positive manner, expecting to mainly get positive behaviour back. Commonsense would tell me that any form of aggressive behaviour from humans towards dogs, can only teach the dog aggression in return. I may be wrong but that's my take on it.
> Dani


You are more intelligent and thoughtful than a lot of other new puppy owners.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I just ask myself, do I want to be my dogs partner or dominate him? However you manage to get to that partnership is probably worthwhile.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't see the negativity in that video at all, I've watched practically all of CM's shows and have never seen him 'abuse' a dog. Being firm and in control with the dogs he comes in contact with is necessary, these are dogs that are over the extreme. But, then I've said that before in a prior post, just needed to input on that 'misleading' video footage that has been taken totally out of context.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

DaniK said:


> Hi,
> Our pup, Bertie is just over 11 weeks old and he's doing pretty well.
> Biggest problems we have is he tends to go from mouthing to biting our 8 year old daughter (doesn't do it to the adults). She's very stoic and doesn't jump up, wave arms about, has tried to stand and ignore him but he just carries on with her. He is also become a little too "alpha male" with our 9 year old westie x scottie, Mollie.
> At a BBQ this weekend, we were discussing this with neighbours and they swore by a chap locally who used the dog whisperer techniques. Having googled them this morning though, they don't seem to be at all positive.
> We have the Victoria Stillwell book, which has been great for teaching Bertie to sit etc but need more info on how to stop the biting and behaviour with Mollie.


~~Hi DaniK

Firstly, welcome to the Forum, you live in a very beautiful part of the world, one which I will be visiting when I get the chance!!

There are many threads about puppies biting, it's such a normal part of their development, and one which they need to learn biting flesh is not good! Try to make sure your daughter is slow and deliberate in her movements whilst around the pup. Children get excited, jumping about and they have high pitched voices which all help pups get over excited and bitey.

Was wondering how he's being "alpha" with your other dog? Is your older dog putting him in his place when he's being out of order? As others have said, Goldens, especially mine, will roll around on the floor together, biting legs, cheeks, ears, feet, all in the name of play . Puppies just have to learn what's appropriate.

Hope Bertie gets better soon, and please drop by the UK social group, there are a few there with new pups too.

Tanya


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Cesar Milan are two dirty words in our house. The only thing good about him is his set of pearly white gnashers - Even his smile looks like a snarl to me. However, he is a very good showman.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Deb_Bayne said:


> I don't see the negativity in that video at all, I've watched practically all of CM's shows and have never seen him 'abuse' a dog. Being firm and in control with the dogs he comes in contact with is necessary, these are dogs that are over the extreme. But, then I've said that before in a prior post, just needed to input on that 'misleading' video footage that has been taken totally out of context.


I am guessing you haven't seen the two where he hung the dogs by their slip collar until the collapsed? One was a husky and one was a mutt. Now, both of these happened in older shows and I do see him doing more positive types of training, but he has definitely been abusive (in my opinion) to dogs on his show. I used to watch CM all the time, but now I don't get the channel since we switched to satellite.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

South Park did a really funny show based on The Dog Whisperer.


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## Deb_Bayne (Mar 18, 2011)

We won't be getting The Dog Whisperer anymore since the network has changed and it's not in our lineup here in Canada. I'm so disappointed.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> South Park did a really funny show based on The Dog Whisperer.


I laughed so hard I cried when I saw that one. It was hysterical!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Wasn't it great??!! But as I have said previously, my goal isn't to dominate the trieves.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Sally's Mom said:


> Wasn't it great??!! But as I have said previously, my goal isn't to dominate the trieves.


I totally agree. I have three full time dogs who all sincerely like each other and normally have a foster puppy somewhere in the mix and then a lot of times I have a previous foster here boarding with me. All in 1700 square feet on less than a quarter of an acre. They all get along and there are never any fights. My dogs like me and I like them. Plus they trust me.


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

I don't know about you guys, but the expression and reaction the golden had after being "touched with CM's foot" absolutely broke my heart. I don't want my dogs to be fearful of any part of a human body.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I agree. I thought the"correction' was over the top for the unwanted behavior.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

That's the part that made me really emotional =(


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## Mssjnnfer (Aug 9, 2009)

And then the scene right after it, with him picking the dog up and carrying him... by his neck. Scruff. Whatever. 

Uhhhh... 

... That's supposed to calm him down?

I'm not a dog trainer. I've had dogs for a little over two years. I'm not an expert. But come on... really? How is that supposed to be calming?


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## KevinB (Oct 27, 2010)

Cesar Milan is a bully. PLEASE don't use his methods to "dominate" your dog. I promise you; these methods only HURT your relationship with your dog. It's true that you may see results from these methods, but the dog is not acting out of love or respect for you - it's out of *fear*.

Look up a girl on youtube - Emily Larlham. Her youtube name is kikopup. This girl's dogs are AMAZING. They love her and trust her, and she's never had to use ANY negative reinforcement training with her dogs.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I didn't watch the whole video but did jump ahead to see which clip they grabbed from the GR episode. A few points about that episode... I remember that one... it's the last show of his I ever watched. I was never a fan but I do like to study and debate training methods... so in a way I was watching his shows primarily as research. And then he did the episode with the 2 hyperactive goldens. That tap he gave in the clip is nothing compared to the one he gave later in the walk when he was frustrated. The man simply couldn't keep himself composed with 2 hyperactive dogs. I've seen him bring hyper borders to a herding class to burn off steam before attempting to train and yet never considered tossing a tennis ball or some such thing before trying to get these dogs to walk with him (I seem to remember him pulling out a bubble blower after the walk... which only contributed to disorganized and hyper play :doh. 

Anyway, to my point... during the walk he kicked one of those goldens hard enough to lift all 4 feet off the ground. I watched it a few times in slo-mo, because I really could not believe what I was seeing!! I literally wanted to vomit. And the caption in that video makes a good point -- the sound of his foot hitting/tapping/kicking/whatever those dogs was LOUD! So either he was kicking them significantly harder than he tries to portray it or the editing staff was incredibly irresponsible in amplifying this sound effect. Either way, dangerous stuff to be showing people who don't know any better. Was he beating the dogs? No. Did he rear back and punt the dog across the yard? No. But that was more than a tap and it was enough to induce a fear response from that dog... and later in the show it was enough to leave a dog literally airborne. That was enough for me. I couldn't watch anymore, ever, even in the name of "research."

Last week there was a new Lab at agility class and Jersey was acting like a first class butt head to impress her (he's such a flirt!). I told him I was going to beat some sense into him and pretended 4 or 5 times to kick him in various parts of his body and head... he jumped and frolicked and thought it was great fun! Then he ran an awesome jumpers course. That's the relationship I want with my dog. 

To the OP- I'm glad you took the time to do the research and decided to use a more positive approach with your pup. Good luck to you both!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## franco (Sep 16, 2011)

*My 2 cents*

I have found that a push button static collar is the best tool in the world. I can end bad behavior with the push of a button and the great thing is that i usually dont have to actually hit him with the shock. Once you put it on and start using it, i would beep him before ever shocking. After half a dozen times getting shocked, he knew EXACTLY what that beep meant and he knew he was doing something naughty and promptly stop. This would work great for if he is rough housing, you can beep him and stay completely out of it, he wont even know you are doing anything. He just thinks its this "magical" collar that SUCKS haha 

As far as the Dog Whisperer, I personally have not watched any of the show, however we did have a friend that does watch it and one thing they said that the D.W. says is that it is MY DOOR, not your (the dog) door, and you can come through MY DOOR when i say you can. This goes for ALL doors and stairs in our (and everyone elses) house. I cannot even begin to describe how great this is. He never rushes the door, always lets everyone go in before him. I can open the sliding door and go back, sit down on the couch for 2 or 3 min and he wont come through till i say he can.

Also do this ^ for when i feed him. He cant go get food till i say he can, this is great because he doesnt lose his $#!+ when i fill his bowl. He sits calmly and knows that i wanna love him up and praise him (for being calm) before he eats


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/another-potentially-dangerous-dog-trainer


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