# High protein diets = increased aggression?



## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I'd never heard this before.
We were watching It's Me or the Dog Saturday night and there was this poor little reactive Chihuahua on there who ate lamb chops and filet mignon almost every day. 
Victoria told the owner that high-protein diets often lead to increased aggression in reactive dogs and that balancing the diet with carbs can help.
I've never heard of high-protein diets being linked to increased aggression. Has anyone else heard this? Or does it sound a little off-the-wall?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

It sounds off the wall to me. 

My only concern about high protein diets is that they might be too much for the digestive system, kidneys, etc...


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

there are some people who believe that high protein diets can cause all sorts of behavior problems, but the evidence is strictly anecdotal. Also, they don't tend to define "high protein". Is it over 40%? Over 50%?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> there are some people who believe that high protein diets can cause all sorts of behavior problems, but the evidence is strictly anecdotal. Also, they don't tend to define "high protein". Is it over 40%? Over 50%?


I've heard quite a few people say that anything 30% or higher is considered "high-protein." I don't know if that's based on any kind of official guideline, though, or if it's just individual opinion.

She didn't explain _why_ she believed that high-protein diets can lead to more aggression, which was really annoying. I hate when people (especially professionals) just throw something like that out there and don't give an explanation. The only logic I could think of is that more protein = more energy and if it's not being properly burned-off, the dog is going to be a little more "amped up." I can see where that might be a problem for an already reactive dog. I wish she would have explained her thinking, though, since I'd never heard someone make the connection before.

I've never noticed Riley's diet having an effect on his behavior. We've tried a wide range of foods, from 42% protein at the high end, to 21% at the low end and several in between. I saw no difference in his temperament between the 42% and the 21%. He's probably less likely to get reactive _now_ than he's ever been and his current food is 25% protein - right in the middle. So I don't think the protein level has a lot to do with it. (Or, at least it doesn't seem to with Riley.)


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

That's really vague and not specifically accurate. There have been some studies that indicate feeding carbs a certain time period after a higher protein meal can help lower reactivity (.... I don't remember the details... possibly lowering the release of something or increasing the release of another neurotransmitter?). 

There was one not so great done study that indicated a lower protein diet (17-18%) could have increased rate/absorption of tryptophan and that could decrease specific types of reactivity, but it's not valid enough that this is a typical recommendation.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

The vet we saw last week told us Toby's kibble at 24% protein, as fed, was too high.  She recommended a kibble (Hills ugh) at 18.4% as fed.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

Hmm, it does sound a little off the wall to me, too! Actually, a lot off the wall. 
And until I saw some kind of scientific proof, I would be hesitant to put any stock in that kind of opinion.

And I'm like you, I hate when professionals say stuff like that and don't back it up with valid proof or expand on their argument to bring up into their way of thinking. I think making sweeping statements like that can be very dangerous. And as you pointed out, what constitutes high protein? 

Like you, Katie has had 21% protein, 28% protein and is now being fed about 50% protein (by weight) in a home-cooked diet. And I have noticed no changes to her temperament. She's the same crazy little pup she's always been.

And there are many dogs (many on this forum, too) that are being fed based on the prey model feeding theory, and none of those dogs are more aggressive or having aggression issues. So yea, I would be inclined to say this was a lot over-the-top! At least in my opinion!

Kim


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dallas Gold said:


> The vet we saw last week told us Toby's kibble at 24% protein, as fed, was too high.  She recommended a kibble (Hills ugh) at 18.4% as fed.


Is he a senior? 

I know that when our guys got up in age 9+, we switched them onto a lower protein kibble. I think they went from 24% protein to 20-22% protein (it depended on whether I got adult or large breed adult).


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

The newest research actually no longer suggests that dropping protein for normal seniors is appropriate. Seniors actually need more protein to maintain their muscle mass. The quality, not the amount, of the protein is the most important factor for seniors, kidney patients, and liver liver patients.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

IowaGold said:


> The newest research actually no longer suggests that dropping protein for normal seniors is appropriate. Seniors actually need more protein to maintain their muscle mass. The quality, not the amount, of the protein is the most important factor for seniors, kidney patients, and liver liver patients.


I was literally just about to say that and your post popped up... sneaky quick fingers.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

IowaGold said:


> The newest research actually no longer suggests that dropping protein for normal seniors is appropriate. Seniors actually need more protein to maintain their muscle mass. The quality, not the amount, of the protein is the most important factor for seniors, kidney patients, and liver liver patients.


Thanks, I'll broach the protein issue with Toby's vet at his follow up tomorrow. He's almost 7, but has some mitral valve and pre-hypertensive issues. He's done well on his current formulation, other than needing to put on a few more pounds. I think that has more to do with Mom not feeding enough for his energy levels...easily rectified.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

I have heard, or read that if your dog gets cancer, to give them more protein, than carbs.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

IowaGold said:


> The newest research actually no longer suggests that dropping protein for normal seniors is appropriate. Seniors actually need more protein to maintain their muscle mass. The quality, not the amount, of the protein is the most important factor for seniors, kidney patients, and liver liver patients.


Thanks for this. There is way too much mythical information floating around regarding protein.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Dallas Gold said:


> Thanks, I'll broach the protein issue with Toby's vet at his follow up tomorrow. He's almost 7, but has some mitral valve and pre-hypertensive issues. He's done well on his current formulation, other than needing to put on a few more pounds. I think that has more to do with Mom not feeding enough for his energy levels...easily rectified.


Please share what you find... 

@IowaGold - thanks for the information re/protein. I'm still not convinced that it is a good idea to feed kibbles with extremely high levels of protein, but then I lost a young golden to renal failure, so of course I'm a bit more hyper on the issue than I'd otherwise be. It's a bit like being shot in a dark room, fully recovering and then being asked to go into that dark room again. You don't know where the shot came from so all four walls are dangerous. :uhoh: Or something. 

I am open to just keeping Jacks on adult kibble (currently on 28% protein, won't go higher) when the time comes. We had to do the same with Sams who failed to thrive on the lower fat senior kibble (he dropped down to 65lbs from 76lbs and probably would have kept losing weight if we hadn't put him back on adult kibble). He was the golden who had the worse "deflated" muscles too - but that was related to old age arthritis. I'll gather higher protein would not have changed him getting creaky old joints, right?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Stilwell's claim sounds a little nutty. I would like to see some hard data to back up a fairly wild claim like that. Having good, accessible calories can make a dog feel his oats (pun intended) a little, I'm sure, but aggression specifically?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I used to think that high protein endangered the kidneys, but I was called on that claim on the forum and read a whole bunch more about it. It still seems like high protein can worsen preexisting kidney problems, because the kidneys can't keep up with the waste products of the protein, and the waste products in the blood hurt the kidneys, but it doesn't look like high protein can _cause_ kidney problems.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> I used to think that high protein endangered the kidneys, but I was called on that claim on the forum and read a whole bunch more about it. It still seems like high protein can worsen preexisting kidney problems, because the kidneys can't keep up with the waste products of the protein, and the waste products in the blood hurt the kidneys, but it doesn't look like high protein can _cause_ kidney problems.


I agree with this btw. 

My neurotic-about-my-babies-health problem is that you don't always know that a pre-existing condition exists until it rears its head. The problem with renal failure is that you generally don't know something is wrong until your dog is in N-stage. 

And I guess I'm used to thinking that older mammals can't handle the same diets that the young-uns can. Because their kidneys can't keep up, etc...


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Stilwell's claim sounds a little nutty. I would like to see some hard data to back up a fairly wild claim like that. Having good, accessible calories can make a dog feel his oats (pun intended) a little, I'm sure, but aggression specifically?


lol.
That was the best I could do in trying to take a guess at what her reasoning might be. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, though. I agree that more energy isn't necessarily going to cause increased aggression, even in a reactive dog. If that were the case, I think I'd see it in Riley, since he's a fairly reactive dog to begin with.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Megora said:


> @IowaGold - thanks for the information re/protein. I'm still not convinced that it is a good idea to feed kibbles with extremely high levels of protein, but then I lost a young golden to renal failure, so of course I'm a bit more hyper on the issue than I'd otherwise be. It's a bit like being shot in a dark room, fully recovering and then being asked to go into that dark room again. You don't know where the shot came from so all four walls are dangerous. :uhoh: Or something.
> 
> I am open to just keeping Jacks on adult kibble (currently on 28% protein, won't go higher) when the time comes. We had to do the same with Sams who failed to thrive on the lower fat senior kibble (he dropped down to 65lbs from 76lbs and probably would have kept losing weight if we hadn't put him back on adult kibble). He was the golden who had the worse "deflated" muscles too - but that was related to old age arthritis. I'll gather higher protein would not have changed him getting creaky old joints, right?


I'm not saying to change from a "normal" protein level to a higher one, just don't drop the protein level simply because the dog is a senior.

High protein hasn't fixed my old man's creaky joints yet, so I don't think protein levels have much to do with that.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

But a good level of protein does help them keep muscle mass, doesn't it?


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