# Thinking about getting the fence done



## Blondie'sPal (Aug 2, 2005)

Hi everybody -- I haven't written in awhile but sure have been enjoying reading the forum. Joe, the pictures of you and Vierka's family vacation were really beautiful!
I am pondering finishing off the fence in my medium but not too big backyard and wanted to get feedback. Here's my dillemna - by myself, it's hard to keep the walking/running schedule both morning and night all week long --but have been doing really well -- I am even reaping the benefits of extra excersize (thanks to Blondie!) But I would like to be able to sit on my deck and watch Blondie frolicking without worrying about her long leash or cable getting tangled. Moreover, I am worried about the winter months here in Nebraska. If I had a fence I wouldn't cut out the excersize too much and probably couldnt' leave her out there alone anyway (she would find trouble somehow,) But, if I do finish the fence it will really cut the yard short there on that side, destroying a very nice open space that looks pleasant between me and my neihbor. Does anyone out there have a golden that still doesn't "come" at your request, and who also doesn't have a fence, and who lives in a cold climate? I am just having trouble making the decision. Blondie really has a mind of her own at 2 years and I don't see her learning thecommand to return any time soon. she is so independant I even fret that her collar will break when we are out and about and she will run off!! She is a terrible puller - but I can't blame her as she is just so happy to be out getting a walk or a run. She is quite strong and it's scarey sometimes! Any ideas or comments are welcome!!


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## shaneamber (Apr 20, 2005)

Hello BP.Some people love the fenceless electric border w/ shock collar.It has never worked for me.At our old house,I wanted to fence in a few acres,but didn't want to see the fence.I bought field fence from Lowes.Its about 90 dollars for a 47 inch high by 330 foot long roll.You use posts that are pounded into the ground every 12 feet or so.As long as you keep the grass trimmed at the bottom,you can hardly see it.When your Golden has gotten older and wiser,you can take it down.They make a puller to remove the posts and its like it was never there.I hope this helps,

Shane


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Why not just install underground electric fencing? or radio fencing if you don't want to do any digging?
We used underground electric fencing on our last two dogs and have found it to be the best thing for our situation. The advantages are obvious but the disadvantages may not be so apparent... other dogs and animals may enter your yard, someone can remove your dog's collar and then steal him, young children may tease your dog eventually driving him nutz, and if not trained properly your dog might charge the fence to get out and later not be able to return.

As I said, in our situation the underground fence is perfect. We live at the edge of town and only an occassional friendly dog has ever wandered into our yard... cats, rabbits, and squirrels do cross the yard unmolested because we've managed to teach Sidney never to chase small game (big game too). Our neighborhood is small enough where we all know each other and the risk of dog theft is pretty much zero. There are no really small children left unattended on our block and beside we only fenced in the backyard with no street exposure, so there is no possibility of anyone teasing Sidney. And finally Sidney was trained properly right from the start and thus has no idea the fence can even be 'charged' so he just accepts the boundaries. In fact we never bother to put 'the collar' on him anymore unless we are going somewhere and leaving him at home for more than a couple of hours (otherwise we just leave him in the house for the short time we'll be gone).

If your situation is right, I would highly suggest you consider installing an underground electric fence... and if you do decide to go that route, please post back here and I can offer you a lot of good common sense advice about how to install the fence and train your dog correctly.

Whatever you decide, good luck!


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## Blondie'sPal (Aug 2, 2005)

*To fence or not to fence?*

Shane and Old Guy,
Very good information. Actually the field fence that Shane suggests might do the trick for the winter months -- I'll have to ask my niehbor what she thinks of that. 
As far as the electric underground fence ... I don't know about that ... Blondie is so independant and loves to chase the squirrels and rabbits -- and she is fast as lightening! I can see her not caring about the shock and charging thru. But, I am going to check it out -- it really would be the best solution if it really works for her. It would be easier to train her if she wasn't already two years old when she found me and who knows how long she'd lived on the run like a little gyspy. I seriousely think she lived on rabbits and birds. She's amazing at catching them! 
She still looks at me like she can't believe she has to be leashed. She even tries to bite her leashes apart. When she does this I can see that it's half play and she is teasing ME, but really she'd like to be free -- she has gone thru 2 short leashes already, and her long 50 lead is looking pretty tattered. I don't mind replacing them at all.
Anyway thank you for the replies - it helps. 
Robin


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Blondie'sPal said:


> Shane and Old Guy,
> ...Blondie is so independant and loves to chase the squirrels and rabbits -- and she is fast as lightening! I can see her not caring about the shock and charging thru...


Robin... I've seen it quite a few times... the only dogs I've ever seen charge the fence are ones who were NOT trained properly and once a dog learns to charge the fence it is a very difficult habit to break. A properly trained dog will NEVER even attempt to charge the fence the first time... its all in the way you train your dog. My recommendations will differ quite a bit from what any of the manufacturers suggest but I guarantee it will work for any dog within a couple of weeks. If you decide to do it, I'll describe my method in full detail to you... believe me, your dog will NEVER charge the fence if you follow through with this training.


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## janb (Apr 27, 2005)

We just bought the gentle leader for Sandy, who at 6 months and 50 lbs, can pull me right down the stairs. We were really having a problem with her choking herself especially in the hot weather!! This seems to work well, although I don't put it on all the time. If we're just going out for a potty trip I'll just use the regular leash. I'm also working with her on the loose leash method, but we don't get to far!!! When she was about 3 months we were letting her off leash and running her between my husband & myself. We both had treats and she would run between us. It seemed to be working great till one day she deceided she would rather check out what was in the woods!!:uhoh: She did that twice and we said noooooo more. Not until we can really train & trust her. Anyway we were hoping to do that befor winter, but I'm afraid she's still to young. She only listens when she wants. We are going to basic school in Oct. so maybe that will help. We also looked into fences but "they" want thousands!!! Good luck!


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## Blondie'sPal (Aug 2, 2005)

*More to think about ..*

Again, good info. JanB I have never heard of the gentle leader ... is that a pinch collar? It's been recommended to me -- but seems like it would hurt her. I hear what you are saying -- about when Sandy was listening until she decided she saw something in the woods! That's Blondie too!! I am thinking about an obedience course as well. There is one at the community college where I work - and would be free for me! Do you think 2 years old is too late? 
Monamer -- I called a local company and they said they could come out and give me an estimate -- probably will be about 2000 for a circle around the property. Even though I only need one side -- they recommended the whole property -- does that seem right to you in your experience? But that way she could go in the front yard and the driveway as well. A little pricey for me right now ... we'll see.
Thanks again all.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Blondie'sPal said:


> ...I called a local company and they said they could come out and give me an estimate -- probably will be about 2000 for a circle around the property. Even though I only need one side -- they recommended the whole property -- does that seem right to you in your experience? But that way she could go in the front yard and the driveway as well. A little pricey for me right now ... we'll see...


WHOA!!!! $2000  Hold it!!!! Who did you call??? That's entirely outrageous!!! Don't have anyone install for it for you or attempt to train your dog as part of their services... it's a RIP-OFF!!! First to see what I'm talking about, please visit one of these sites:
http://radiofence.com/services/go-electric-dog-fence.htm
http://petsafe-warehouse.com/outdoor/electric_dog_fences.htm
As you've now seen we are talking well under $400 for even the most deluxe system to cover 25 acres. I'm sure your total cost will probably be more like $120 for a complete system (though if you go to your local farm supply store or to a home improvement store, you're likely to get away much cheaper) and maybe $40 to rent an edger... if you have a straight shovel and your ground is not too hard, you might save the 40 bucks and just spend a couple of hours burying the wire by hand. The only thing you need to be careful of is to make all corners very, very gradual. Sharp turns tend to cause the signal to cancel out at the corner (called a 'null' spot)... you can always check this out after hooking up the transmitter by walking the perimeter with the collar in your hand searching for any null areas. You can make a null area if you choose by just twisting the wire with itself... this allows you to create "islands" such as around a prized center garden in the middle of the backyard or a pond where you don't want Blondie to access. Once you've decided to do this, if you decide to do a complicated or tricky layout (i.e. going over a driveway or creating multiple 'islands' in the center of the yard) just describe situation to me and I will tell you how to run the wire to do this. Its actually all very easy to do. And the training is just as easy... YOU DO *NOT* NEED A PROFESSIONAL TO DO ANY OF IT FOR YOU!!!!! I've done this five times in the last 10-years and it never took me longer than about 2-hours to install the system, EVER... and that's using a flat-shovel.

EDIT: A gentle leader is basically a horse halter but for dogs. Works on the principle that where the head goes the rest must follow... many people swear by it.

EDITED some more... here is a wireless system if you would rather not hassle with burying wire http://radiofence.com/instant_fence.htm however I don't really like it unless you have a very, very large yard... because the pattern it creates is not very flexible and it will vary slightly from day to day.


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## Blondie'sPal (Aug 2, 2005)

*Thanks Monamer!*

Okay -- I will check it out and get back to you tomorrow!! Thanks again!


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## janb (Apr 27, 2005)

The gentle leader is advertised as a head collar. They say will never choke & not a muzzle, although it kind of looks like one as there is a little strap that goes over her nose. It claims to apply pressure at the back of the neck & not at the front of throat. Since dogs tend to pull against pressure the gentle pressure @ the back of the neck causes the dog to pull backward. Sandy is not real crazy about it but she doesn't resist me putting it on her and after a few minutes settles in with it. It really has made a difference with being able to take her places and it just makes her walk like you would like. We had some bad experience with going places where she pulled so much that we were afraid she would choke herself before we could make it back to the car :doh: . This is our first puppy, and everything is a learning experience for all of us. For a while we decided not to even go anywhere, but this has made it possible. You can find it on the internet, I'm sure.


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## Karbean (Jun 11, 2005)

*Gentle Leader*

Robin:
I agree with Jan wholeheartedly. It is a great invention....cost's less than $20 US and will amaze you. We have used it on a number of our rescues who have poor leash manners and presto/chango they begin to walk alongside you with a loose leash in about 10 minutes. Cliff


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## Joe (Apr 9, 2005)

I agree... my experience with 'gentle leader' is also very good. 
Both our Goldens hated it from the beginning, but eventually figured it out, and now while on gentle leader, they don't pull like crazy (like they used to).
Joe


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Some sites to visit, that explain the halter type of collars...
http://www.ddfl.org/behavior/halter.htm
http://www.companyofanimals.co.uk/haltiguide1.php
http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?ID=29

and this one explains about several types of collars/devices you can use for 'pullers' (actually why they don't work), and then disuss the 'Gentle Leader', 'Snoot Loop' and the 'Halti' brands of halters...
http://www.geocities.com/jetflair/halti.html


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## Blondie'sPal (Aug 2, 2005)

*Making Progress*

Thanks for your comments Cliff, Janb, Shaneamber and for the great info Monamer, 
Blondie and I had a great weekend. We are running close to a mile now in the mornings (that's a lot for me!) without stopping and it's really helped her temperament in the house. Then I discovered a huge field nearby that they just mowed -- so after checking that she wasn't getting any thorns i've been using her 50ft lead to give her a sense of freedom. Taking her out on the long lead is great but it does make her pull when I've got her on the short one, so I will pick up the head halter this week. I was at Petco and saw it. Does look like a good idea. I'll let you all know how she takes it.
I have also decided that I should try the underground fence for a barrier on the unfenced side of the back yard, and if it doesn't work I won't be out that much $$ and I can then get a wooden fence. Monamer - you were right - it would be less than $200 for the radio underground one -- so I am going to give it a try. YOu said it would be important to train her correctly the first go round? If you have time, would you mind elaborating on that? No hurry - won't go in until next week.
Thanks again all!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Robin... Congratulations on your running achievement!!!!! One word of caution though... if you continue to run/jog and push yourself a little more each time, you will find that a time will come when you can actually out-distance Blondie. Humans are tremendous long-distance runners... albeit slow by doggie standards. Dogs by contrast have tremendous bursts of speed that 'peter out' soon enough. Once you get to the point of jogging 2 or 3 miles non-stop you will have to start pacing yourself with Blondie's abilities and slow-down if/when she does and speed up (within reason) with her as well... be mindful of the weather (heat and humidity) and adjust accordingly and bring water. I envy you, I wish I could jog along with Sidney instead of using the bike but unfortunately my knees are the knees of an old man and will no longer let me. Keep up the good work and enjoy your good physical health for as long as you can... Blondie will love you for it.

Yes, training is not something to scrimp-on when it comes to underground electric fence training... if done improperly or inadequately you stand a good chance of your dog discovering how to charge the fence to obtain freedom and once rewarded this habit quickly becomes very hard to correct to the point where you might as well scrap the electronic fence for a physical fence. The very first step in training, you are already doing... getting your dog out and exercising her adequately every single day... this creates a calmer pet which is conducive for learning and creates a dog who is less intense about escaping confinement (a contented, sleeping dog really won't even try to leave its yard). Next you will need to give Blondie a "visual" reminder of where the boundary is located. So it helps if you intentionally buried the wire near natural boundaries that are part of your landscape... like along a row of trees or a sidewalk or the edge of your lawn (like where the mowed grass stops) or a line of decorative stone edging or bark has been laid, etc. Though these natural boundaries are not really necessary, I think it does help some when the artificial 'visual' reminders are finally removed. These artificial "visuals" reminders are the little white 'flags' provided in your 'kit'. I always augment the flags with a connecting piece of yarn, string, or ribbon... you see, to a dog a bunch of little flags are just that, a bunch of little flags stuck in the ground... I don't believe dogs (especially from their low vantage point) automatically perceive it as a boundary-line... that's more of a human trait. Because of the way our minds work and our "up high" vantage point of viewing, we automatically look for and can spot patterns in things we see, this is what humans do... so that 'row of flags representing a boundary-line' is a 'no-brainer' for us humans... but I don't think its that easy for a dog. So what I do first is (with the transmitter ON and collar in hand) I walk the boundary-line swinging the collar around to find the exact point where it just starts to beep and then stick a wire flag in the ground at that point... then I continue doing this around the whole yard, evenly spacing the flags (say every 2-feet apart). Then I buy 100-foot rolls of vinyl surveyor's tape (either Hunter's orange or Hot-pink at a home improvement center... they're really cheap... maybe two bucks per roll) and tie the first end to a wire flag's stem then I just stretch it over to the next adjacent flag and loop it around just once (just one quick wind around the wire stem is all that's necessary to hold it there) and go on to the next, loop it and so on and so on until the roll has been exhausted, then simply tie it off and begin a new roll (or you could just tie the ends together and continue). You can also use yarn or anything else you have handy to do this, it doesn't have to be ribbon. This now provides a continuous visual clue as to the location of the boundaries... much more effective from a dog's perspective. Okay, now you are ready for the actual training part. Several times a day (say 5 to 10 times throughout the day) leash up Blondie and 'walk the line' (make sure you only ever walk parallel to the ribbon)... when she wanders close to the ribbon say "No!" as if you are alarmed (as opposed to using a punishing tone) and jerk her back... this teaches her that the ribbon is something to stay away from and more importantly tells her which way to go to get away from it. After just a couple of days, that ribbon becomes in effect a fence in itself... that's good. So after 2 or 3 days of this training, now put 'the collar' on her and do your same walk procedure... this time wait until she gets close enough for the collar to sound a warning beep then jerk her back into the yard while saying "No!" again in an alarming fashion. After about 3 or 4 days of this training, its time to turn Blondie loose in the yard with the collar on. It may take several days, even a week, but at some point she will venture close enough to the ribbon to hear the warning beep... because of her training she will have approach the ribbon very tentatively and so will not have to experience a shock, only the warning beep and she will immediately backup into the yard (just what her training has taught her to do). Eventually within days Blondie will probably test the warning beep and receive her first actual shock... in her excitement and possibly panic response, she will automatically jump back away from the ribbon (exactly what the training has conditioned her to do). She will then probably sit on the porch or in the middle of the yard for awhile (often the rest of the day... and with some extremely sensitive dogs maybe all the next day as well) but trust me on this one, she WILL eventually venture back out into her yard again and this time she will respect the ribbon so carefully she will probably never receive another shock ever again, only warning beeps... and that was the point of the week long training sessions, to minimize the pain of the learning experience. At this point I will suggest you leave the ribbon up for several weeks (or until the neighbors begin complaining) then remove it while leaving the flags in place. After a couple more weeks, start removing the in-between flags (every other one)... the flags should now have a 4-foot spacing, wait a week then remove the in-betweeners again (every other flag) an 8-foot spacing, another week and create 16-foot spacing, finally another week and you can remove the rest of the flags... 'cause you're done training!

How a dog learns to charge the fence successfully: A dog only learns to charge a fence when he approaches rather quickly and head-on... then when he inevitably gets shocked, he doesn't know which way to go to get away from it... and in his panic he will just run faster in the direction he was already traveling in... voila, reward? freedom outside the fence. He has just learned how to charge the fence. Next time he will be so fast that he will have been able to crossed the entire electronic boundary width only hearing the warning beep and receiving no shock... real success and very rewarding. You might as well scrap the electronic fence at this point. So as you can see, its best to do the FULL training and do it right the very first time to avoid this dilemma.

"I've got blisters on my fingers!"


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## Blondie'sPal (Aug 2, 2005)

*Good Instructions*

Monamer,
Thank you for the detailed istructions! They make good sense to me. I will proceed exactly as you have outlined. I think I can handle this. It's definetely worth a try. I will let you know how it is going! 
Thanks again!
PS - This morning Blondie pulled two baby rabbits from a field! What a hunter! I made her drop them of course -- but I praised her too. I hope they didn't get too injured.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

Very good instructions. I had at one time thought of an electric fence, then let it go, but you both have got me thinking again. Woody doesn't really run away, and we have very little traffic. I am thinking of my own convenience--not having to go get him when he decides to check out the neighbors flower beds, not having to get him out of the lake if he decides to go swimming on his own, etc.

We have a pretty large yard that includes woods, and backs up to a lake. I was wondering if I should enclose the whole thing, or just parts of it. I also wondered if it confuses the dog to be confined at one time, then later be able to leave. For example, we have a large field across the road. If we used the fence, this area would be off limits to Woody. However, when we play ball with our kids, this is where we play, so it would be nice to let Woody over there when we are out there. 

Blondie's Pal, please keep me posted on your experience--if it works for you, I might have to try it.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

MegB... I don't have much time right now but... you should have only one (or two) entrance(s) in and out of the enclosure, but make sure they have doors to limit its use. We use the side garage door as ours, even if the main door is up we take him through the side door. We simply remove his electronic collar and call him through the side door to leave the yard. The front door of our house is the only other way he knows to safely enter or exit.

BTW, we never even bother to put on his electronic collar anymore except when we go somewhere without him (not too often) and are going to leave him outside. He never tries to escape his yard, ever! Its more for our peace of mind than anything else.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

I am a little confused by your last post, Monomer. Where does the side garage door lead to? I understand the front door, since of course he is not enclosed in the house. But does the garage door lead to another door, to a part of the yard not in the fence? 

I am thinking that maybe you only have your backyard fenced in. Then Sidney could go through the door to get into the front yard. But we have a long, narrow yard with the house in the middle, so I was thinking of enclosing the front and back. But then, I am not sure where to put the exit from the enclosure, since the entire house and garage will be contained inside the electric fence. 

I am now proofreading my post, and talk about confusing! Anyway, I hope you can figure out my question and offer a little advice...

Thanks.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

You are exactly correct... we only have our backyard 'fenced' but the wire also encompasses the house as well so, for instance, Sidney would NOT be able to go out an open garage door without receiving a 'beep'. Since we always remove his collar the moment he enters the house, the front door is 'safe' (but if he were still wearing the collar, he would get 'beeped' if he tried to go through it. So with our 'fence' lay-out, we 'made' one other door essentially work like the front door (in Sidney's mind it's safe to go through) we picked the side garage door. So if the main garage door is up Sidney will not go though but if the side door is opened he will... so we must always make sure his collar is off when we open the door and call him through. I intentionally didn't want the front yard to be part of his enclosure because we do have passers-by several times a day (not to mention the UPS guy, who has a real big phobia to all dogs... I guess not really so unusual given his job). Anyway for you to implement the same concept as our front door you will need to establish a 'door' somewhere in your boundary. It would be best if this 'door' can be physically opened or closed (rather than symbolically or conceptually which would be rather more difficult to train to get the dog to understand how it works). Maybe a nice little arbor with a gate or just the gate... yes, it will look bizarre to the neighbors (maybe you could plant a couple of little pine trees on either side of it). Make this the only safe place to go through by always removing his collar before you open it and call him through. Though I've not ever tried this, it should work just like our side garage door does for Sidney. The other choice is to make going by car the 'safe' route out. Have Woody jump into the car and then drive him outside the 'fenced' area and then let him out of the car... though I think it would very soon become a real nuisance ritual every time you just wanted to take Woody for a little walk, go play with the kids, etc...


Wow, talk about convoluted writing... I hope you can make some sense outta what I've just written...

*EDIT:* Okay MegB I was thinking about this some more and have another idea... why not 'fence' everything except leave the driveway on the 'outside', so Woody will have the use of his whole yard except he cannot pass through the driveway. Now when you want to allow him 'out' you let him into the garage and walk him down the driveway. If you actually choose to do this, let me know 'cause the lay-out of the wiring is not as straight forward as it might first appear but I believe I have a real good solution to make this lay-out workable.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

That is a good suggestion, except that part of our driveway runs right along the woods. I don't think there is enough room for Woody to go between the driveway and the woods (I was thinking of keeping the woods off limits, and anyway, I don't plan on walking through the woods every time I take him out of the enclosure). I am actually thinking a little about the arbor idea--as silly as it might look, it just seems like the only way to work a door into our yard. 

I am going to think about it a little longer and ask around, and any other ideas from this group would be appreciated! Just today, I found Woody drinking out of my neighbor's birdbath--besides being disgusting and probably a health hazard, I am sure she didn't appreciate him scaring away her birds. It is time to get this boy some boundaries!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

WOW, this is getting rather complicated for purely verbal descriptions... MegB why not draw a sketch of your home/yard lay-out and surroundings, then scan it and attach it to your next posting. I'm pretty sure I can come up with a solution that's relatively simple and involving no added expenses (such as building and arbor with gate).


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

OK, Monomer, I have attempted to attach a drawing of our layout to this reply. All I did was draw a layout, take a picture of it, and attach it. As I have mentioned before, I am no computer genius.

If I did manage to attach it correctly, hopefully you can make a little sense of it (I am no artist either). 

Thanks again for all your time and help.


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

OK, now I am looking at my reply, and it did work, but I see that it is not the easiest thing to decipher. Anyway, let me know if it makes any sense, and I'll try to think of something else in the meantime (we don't have a scanner).


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Okay, so this is a start... now, do you wish him to be able to access the lake? Which set of Woods should he be allowed to access and which shall be off limits? (It looks to me like you have 3 wooded areas, right?)


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

Yes, you are correct, 3 wooded areas. I think he would like a little access to the largest wooded area, but only if it is possible to run the fence through there. Part of that area belongs to our neighbor on the other side, so he cannot have run of the whole thing. He doesn't really seem to have any interest in the other two wooded areas. If that is a big deal, though, he'd be OK to have the woods off limits. The front yard (between the road and woods) is very large, so he'd have plenty of room either way.

Definitely no access to the lake. That is one problem I hope to take care of--allowing him in the lake only when we are there with him.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Boy have I been busy lately, haven't had time to check the forum... Okay MegB, I've got an idea but it may be too complex to describe completely without an accompanying drawing... and unfortunately I'm at work right now and will be for the next 6 hours. When I get home this evening, I'll sketch my thoughts out and scan it and attach it. But for now, just a brief description of my idea... eliminate the driveway and side yard to the property line and also exclude the backyard with its lake access. This makes the back door and the garage door Woody's 2 controlled access points to 'freedom'. Everywhere else gets 'wired' into his new containment area. Would that work for you?


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## MegB (Jul 19, 2005)

Wow, now that was just too easy. I had been making it way too complicated, thinking I needed to find a way to enclose the whole yard. But I think your idea would work just fine--it would give Woody plenty of room. It would also keep him where I could see him from inside the house, which would be very convenient. And it would keep him far from the road and the lake, so that maybe someday, I could put in a dog door and he could go in and out as he pleases. 

Your help is much appreciated! I'll keep you posted...


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