# Anyone familiar with Promise Land Goldens?



## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I'd steer clear. 

Kassie was bred to Trident and produced a litter on 6/23/11. Trident won't even be a year old til 9/16/11.
No hips/elbows on her. 

Chloe was also bred to Trident and produced a litter on 6/17/11. 
No CERF or elbows on her. And her pedigree is White Dove, and Dillon's and a lot of other truly marginal stuff with very sketchy genetic health histories.

The contract for puppies from Promise Land is guaranteeing for 1 year, and mixes up "congenital" and "genetic" in descriptions of what is covered. 

No thanks.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yep. What Pointgold said. Save yourself the heartache.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

None of their dogs have elbow clearances and her females don't have complete clearances anyways. Cassie doesn't have any hip clearances and Chloe doesn't have an eye clearances. I get especially concerned when a breeder has a type of clearance (say hips) for one dog but not for another dog. They know that that clearance is important so did they just decide not to get it for that dog (less likely) or did they get a bad result and just decide not to post it (more likely).


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Selli-Belle said:


> None of their dogs have elbow clearances and her females don't have complete clearances anyways. Cassie doesn't have any hip clearances and Chloe doesn't have an eye clearances. I get especially concerned when a breeder has a type of clearance (say hips) for one dog but not for another dog. They know that that clearance is important so did they just decide not to get it for that dog (less likely) or did they get a bad result and just decide not to post it (more likely).


 
And seriously. Breeding a male before he's even a year old???? The clearance issue speaks for itself... And you don't even know what that dog is going to _look _like when he's mature. 
To purposely breed him to two bitches, when he was approx 7 mos old, tells me that as long as it has testicles and a uterus it is going to be bred.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

What Pointgold said. And a prelim cardiac clearance IS worthless as SAS can show up to one year of age and many of us wait until later for the real clearance.


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## oakleysmommy (Feb 20, 2011)

That makes me sad breeding a dog before a year old.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

That is so sad. To me, breeding so young is abuse!


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## jluke (Nov 18, 2011)

*My Pup's from Promise Land*

Thanks for your posts. My Maisie, now 6 months old, is from Promise Land. She's from the Chloe-Trident, June 17, 2011, litter. I'm truly interested in learning more about the breeder, so please don't read any of my comments as defensive in any way.

When I checked Chloe's clearances, I learned that her lack of an eye clearance is due to a corneal scratch, not an eye defect. For what it's worth. But I didn't realize that Trident is so young...

I don't know if it matters -- and I'm not sophisticated in this area, so I'm interested in learning -- these dogs are well-kept, well-loved, well-trained and were expensive to acquire. From what I could learn of their lineage, it looked good, so I'm interested in the negative comment here and would like to learn more.

As to the comment about the confusion of "genetic" and "congenital" in the contract, I've learned from dealing with the breeder that English isn't her strength. Given that, while the confusion is unfortunate, I wouldn't read too much into it.

As to Maisie, herself, she is healthy, bouncy, friendly and smart. I know the healthy is a "so far" comment, given her young age. To be fair, she is a bit shy, particualarly with men which I think is due to limited exposure to them at a young age.

One aspect of Promise Land that I liked is that the dogs and pups are in contact with a family -- but not in a backyard breeder situation -- so Maisie came to us very well-socialized with children and comfortable in a home environment.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Welcome to the Forum. You could still get a CERF with a corneal scratch.... Eye clearances are about genetic issues, not injuries.. For example, one type of cataract clears CERF, but not the hereditary kind. You will find many posts on this forum that explain that a breeder can be nice, be clean, and love their dogs, etc, but that doesn't make them a breeder someone in the know would recommend. Even those of us who try to do all the "right" things i.e. all four clearances, breed after 2 years, exhibit our dogs in some venue, etc do not always produce perfection, but at least we are stacking the deck in our favor.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And it is water under the bridge as you love your dog and it is probably a great family dog... but when looking at a breeder, if you conform to the GRCA COE, you need hip, elbow, eye, and heart clearances. As it stands today, Trident has only a CERF from when he was four months old!!! Most hereditary cataracts don't show up until several months after that. Kassie got her clearances (hip, elbow) after she produced her first litter of pups. Most of us do it beforehand. Then Chloe really confuses me. No elbow clearance, but a PennHip rating (and a big deal is made in the website of the superiority of Penn Hip... yet now Kassie has OFA hip/elbows). She also is the only one with an OFA thyroid clearance.. Breeders who do some clearances on some of their dogs, but not others always make me suspicious. And Chloe definitely should CERF with a corneal scratch... at the very least, I would like to see a report from an ophthalmologist.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I have said it before and will say it again

a breeder can be nice and still be irresponsible 
a breeder can produce a nice dog and still be irresponsible.
a breeder can be neat and clean and take good care of her dogs and still be irresponsible
a breeder can love their dogs and still be irresponsible
A dog can be beautiful and still have an irresponsible breeder 

all of these things can be true and the breeder still irresponsible... 

I am glad that you love your dog... and at this point it doesn't matter...as sally says water under the bridge.... 

however, hopefully you can learns some things here and make a better choice in the future. 
good luck with your pupper


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## jluke (Nov 18, 2011)

*Some Further Information*

Thanks for your comments. I have some further information and clarification after checking with Maisie's vet, the breeder's vet and the breeder. Some of the posted information seems to be inaccurate.

Promise Land dams are bred after their third heat. Trident became a sire at a year, not 7 months, still young, and still with some preliminary clearances, I know.

The dogs have a mix of OFA and PennHip clearances because the breeder and her vet orthopedic specialist feel that there are limitations in the OFA standard in two areas. First, films and dogs do not have to be identified together with a microchip ID and second, the qualifications of the reader of the films are not as stringent as they could be. Neither of these limitations apply to PennHip. Nonetheless, OFA is the better known and more widely accepted standard. Or so I was told.

There is no excuse for the dogs not to have elbow clearances. It's my fault that I didn't check on this. Interestingly, when I researched what to look for in choosing a GR puppy, this didn't show up and it wasn't listed as a clearance by the other larger breeders I looked at. Not an out for me, just a note.

Chloe's eyes were examined by an optho-vet who found the corneal scratch. He wouldn't clear her based on that, despite the comment that she should be "clearable" with the scratch. But he found no genetic eye disorder.

And, although I appreciate the sincerely educational posts, I checked some backgrounds on posters. A few, just a few, of you have an ax to grind. That's not the forum purpose. As to the post with the comment about irresponsible breeders who are clean, loving, etc., I think you need to know more about Promise Land before you draw a conclusion. Whether I would choose another puppy from them again, I haven't yet decided. I do have my heart invested in Maisie now -- and in her health and well-being.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

jluke said:


> As to the post with the comment about irresponsible breeders who are clean, loving, etc., I think you need to know more about Promise Land before you draw a conclusion. Whether I would choose another puppy from them again, I haven't yet decided. I do have my heart invested in Maisie now -- and in her health and well-being.



i know nothing about them... and if they are breeding without elbow clearances... then that makes them irresponsible but my post was more in the general.... 

many people come here and will say something like but she was so nice and her dogs were so friendly and her house was clean and she really loves her dogs... etc etc etc.... that is what my post was referring to... not to this breeder at all who honestly I don't know... 

however, I will say I am reading a lot of excuses ... and honestly if i went to an opthalmologist (or however you spell that) who didn't clear my dog on something that should have cleared I would go to a different eye doctor and get the clearance... I would not breed without the clearance, and we know there is no excuse on the elbow clearance.... AND to breed a boy at a year??? all of those things make for an irresponsible breeder.... even without adding the other stuff.... 

it is very easy for a breeder to say that people are out to get her or have an ax to grind etc etc... its easier to say that than to acknowledge that maybe just maybe they aren't being responsible in their breeding and by doing so they negate all the negative comments being made ... oh those people are just being mean to me... but honestly I breed every 3 or 4 years and in the meantime I get all kinds of enquiries about puppies and I send them to various other responsible breeders. I am not in competition with anyone for puppy sales... and thus no ax to grind at all... except if you are irresponsible and then you betcha I am gonna let as many people know that I can... 

so just my two cents


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

jluke said:


> As to the post with the comment about irresponsible breeders who are clean, loving, etc., I think you need to know more about Promise Land before you draw a conclusion. Whether I would choose another puppy from them again, I haven't yet decided. I do have my heart invested in Maisie now -- and in her health and well-being.



I am glad to hear you heart is invested in Maisie, she deserves it at minimum. 
As to your comment on the post about irresponsible breeders, nothing you posted below changes Promise Land's deserved placement in that group. Sorry. :wavey:



jluke said:


> Thanks for your comments. I have some further information and clarification after checking with Maisie's vet, the breeder's vet and the breeder. Some of the posted information seems to be inaccurate.
> 
> Promise Land dams are bred after their third heat. Trident became a sire at a year, not 7 months, still young, and still with some preliminary clearances, I know.
> 
> ...


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

I just read this for the first time and I am so sad for Trident :'(


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## dmsl (Jun 7, 2009)

Totally agree with all that has been said....love what you already have, but don't go back now that you are educated. Breaks my heart to see such young dogs bred. Long ago, before we found this forum, we bought our yellow lab from the paper. We loved her dearly & cared for her like we do Bear...but boy was she expensive!!! She had more medical issues (& $ spent)than either of our human kids!!! We know now what to look for in a breeder & will never go back to those who don't follow the guidelines listed by these experienced golden owners on this forum. All dogs are loveable, but why not get the best you can health wise, for a longer healthier friend for life?


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

jluke said:


> And, although I appreciate the sincerely educational posts, I checked some backgrounds on posters. A few, just a few, of you have an ax to grind. That's not the forum purpose. As to the post with the comment about irresponsible breeders who are clean, loving, etc., I think you need to know more about Promise Land before you draw a conclusion. Whether I would choose another puppy from them again, I haven't yet decided. I do have my heart invested in Maisie now -- and in her health and well-being.


No offense but these threads come up all the time, heck I made a few a while back so I don't fault people for making them. When it comes to breeding, it is pretty cut and dry, at least according to GRCA. There are a lot of Golden Retriever breeders in the states. There are good breeders,so-so and outright bad breeders. Imo if you follow all of the guidelines set forth by the GRCA then you are a good breeder and I would assume could be recommended. 


If you pick and choose which clearances to run whether its intentional or unintentional....well your a *irresponsible *breeder if you abide by *most *of the guidelines....well your a *irresponsible *breeder. If a breeder doesn't proclaim to abide by GRCA and doesn't run clearances, thats one thing, but if you spout all these claims, then follow what you preach.

The same thing still stands, people saw flags, one flag is why run one clearance on one dog, but not the other....its shady. If this breeder a bad breeder, no comment, are there better breeders out there? Just going off of the website and the clearances etc...YES

I'm sorry you feel that some members have an "AX" to grind, but thats all we can really do, someone says how is this breeder, we go to the website and look for the clearances that the GRCA says to look for, if there not there, we don't recommend that breeder, its simple. Some memebers have different ways of saying this, some are better at conveying their opinions then others. RIP PointGold...lol

All in all, I'm glad that you are happy with your dog, but I don't see why your defending the breeder when you yourself can't even recommend them.

"* Whether I would choose another puppy from them again, I haven't yet decided. I do have my heart invested in Maisie now -- and in her health and well-being." *


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

jagmanbrg said:


> RIP PointGold...lol



Just for the record she will be back (or at least allowed to if she desires), she is not permanently banned. Thank you lord! :smooch:


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> Just for the record she will be back (or at least allowed to if she desires), she is not permanently banned. Thank you lord! :smooch:



Oh I know, I for one welcome her back, I didn't always agree with what she said, but I personally tend to be pretty blunt and I loved that about her.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I started to write along the lines that if the breeder doesn't follow the guidelines then they aren't worth recommending. ....... and so on...

That doesn't mean that once we own a dog even if we made a bad choice on a breeder that the dog isn't loved and special.

No one here looks down on the dogs (we love them) no matter where they came from.
Good breeder, Commercial breeder, bad breeder, pet store, rescue or shelter. 
The dogs are priceless!!!!!

But we as golden lovers once educated need to make the best choice. And not put money in the pockets of those that don't have the best interest of the golden retriever breed as their goal.

IMO, no one that has posted has an ax to grind.


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## jluke (Nov 18, 2011)

*My Last Thoughts*

Thanks for the educational comments. I appreciate the knowledge I've gained.

I don't intend to be defending, just reporting what I've learned from the breeder and three associated vets.

To date, Maisie is in great condition. I know that many of the health issues will only be seen -- if they are -- as she grows older. I can only be sure that she gets the best care from me and her vet, and am and will do so. (I appreciate the comment about loving our dogs regardless of their sources. My first two GRs were rescued adult dogs. After a truly unfortunate experience with the second who'd been abused, I thought I'd done a better job in choosing Maisie. So far, so good... She's out of the breeder's hands now -- and in mine.)


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

So glad she's in good health!!! She's still a chunk of love that deserves a loving family and you will be very happy  It's not a question of pedigree, just health... We all want the longest amount of time with our goldens, right? Enjoy her!!!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Here's where I am coming from: when I look at k9data and see death dates of dogs with no cause of death, I assume cancer because nothing is written. It could be a totally incorrect assumption. So when I see a bitch on a website who is old enough to have OFA elbow and hips and has only a PennHip, I say,"Hmmm". I especially say ,"Hmmm" when a bitch from the same kennel, six months younger has OFA hips and elbows. So why in one case do we decide Penn Hip is good for one bitch(but no elbow clearances.. although you can do OFA elbows with PennHip) , yet the next bitch six months later goes thru OFA? It gets my little pea brain wondering why? IMO, you either believe you should do one or the other, and some do both, but why chose Penn Hip for one bitch and OFA for the other? Regardless, a prelim heart clearance is worthless as I can see SAS long after the 8 month mark. And a four months of age eye clearance is equally worthless due to the onset of hereditary cataracts at a later age. Personally, I have no axe to grind.. I have been given one golden, bought two, and the rest that I own I bred myself. I have owned a golden with 5 clearances that I never bred.. someone once told me, "just because it has a uterus, doesn't mean you should breed her." And it's not all about clearances, those of us who obsess over this breed like to see competitive titles, as well.. I have chosen breeders who have their dogs out there competing, be it conformation, obedience, field... So when you came to this forum did you really want us to point out the issues we have with your breeder? or breeders like that?


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

What happened to PointGold???


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Pointgold was banned, I believe in September or so.. And for anyone who owns dogs, a corneal scratch will heal, so an abnormality on the cornea is not likely a scratch. I'm sorry, but as an owner and a veterinarian, that just bugs me.


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

I swear I've seen posts by PointGold... I guess they're just old? I thought it was something for this thread... The ppl here that supposedly have an "ax" to grind are simply doing what was asked of them and that was to give their opinion on a breeder... I think they did that well and corrected in a diplomatic way that was not meant to be offensive to anyone... This forum is for ppl who love goldens and I have no doubt that is the reason these ppl are here... They don't have a problem with the person that buys the dog (ignorantly, that's not offensive if you know the definition) or, ESPECIALLY, a problem with the dog! They have a problem with people who could be tainting the breed thru poor breeding and that, unfortunately, plagues popular breeds like golden retrievers... The ppl doing the poor breeding may not even KNOW they're doing poor breeding! It's simply ignorance... However, when you know what the GRCA recommends and you simply choose to omit: RED FLAG... That's when we (golden lovers) must digress to the expertise of the many golden lovers and experts to educate us... I am very educated when it comes to goldens, but I will never claim to know everything and I have already learned SO MUCH! So thanks to everyone and if you keep it in perspective then it's nothing but a learning experience  I understand the desire to want to defend your breeder because you feel like your dog is being deemed "inadequate" by association... NOT THE CASE! We all want you to love on your baby and have a long life with her  It's merely educational... Sorry this is so long... Had to let it out... Thanks all!


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

jluke said:


> Thanks for the educational comments. I appreciate the knowledge I've gained.
> 
> I don't intend to be defending, just reporting what I've learned from the breeder and three associated vets.
> 
> To date, Maisie is in great condition. I know that many of the health issues will only be seen -- if they are -- as she grows older. I can only be sure that she gets the best care from me and her vet, and am and will do so. (I appreciate the comment about loving our dogs regardless of their sources. My first two GRs were rescued adult dogs. After a truly unfortunate experience with the second who'd been abused, I thought I'd done a better job in choosing Maisie. So far, so good... She's out of the breeder's hands now -- and in mine.)


From the beginning of this thread everyone kind of said that all this was water under the bridge and to move forward... of course it is hard to not feel like you and your dog are being attacked.. but we all recognize that you love your dog and you should... and hopefully when all is said and done she is a healthy happy pup and never has a health issue at all.... That is the goal and she has you now to take care of her... be happy that she didnt stay at the breeder. So done is done... 

As for the three vets... I remember when I first started breeding years ago.. I was so nervous about whelping the litter that I called my vet and asked him if the next time he had a pregnant dog if he could call me so that I could come and watch... and his response to me was that he never sees the dogs unless there is a problem... I have seen vets breed without clearances because shoot they looked at the xrays and they know.. as a breeder I have had vets tell me that they should be able to do whatever they want with the puppy that I bred because you know they are the Vet... 

My point here being that Vets are good with medicine... but my experience has been that many are not that good with husbandry. They are not up on what clearances are required for each breed, unless they are involved in that breed like Sallys Mom, they may not even be aware of what the medical issues are for each breed until they are presented in front of them. I have had two vets at the practice I go to ask to remove Natalies bursas on her elbows yet every breeder I talk to tells me they will resolve on their own... we are going to wait...all in all the vets may not really know what is required to be a responsible breeder.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

It's true...I have been a veterinarian for 25.5 years and the first normal whelping I saw was my own 9.5 years ago!


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

To the OP, consider this a learning experience. I too joined the Forum and learned after the fact that my Breeder was not the good breeder I thought they were. I thought I'd done my homework; the Breeder was friendly, their dogs were well taken care of, they were 'of age' for breeding and had CERF, SAS, Hip clearances, and had a 5 generation pedigree for my pup's litter. I had not learned of Elbow clearances, and their litters did not have elbow clearances. Also, not every litter produced had the same clearances as my litter. Some females were being bred on prelims only. Yeah, I had a 5 generation pedigree but I didn't check back far enough and not all the dogs in that pedigree had all their clearances. Many only had Hip clearances. I also later learned that my dog's mother is also being used to produce Golden Doodles, a huge no-no in reputable Golden and Poodle circles. So, would I go back to them again? No. But, I believe in 'meant to be's' and Ike was meant to be with me.  Thankfully, my Ike is healthy and has been a joy to have as part of our family. He'll be 5 in January and I hope to have him around and healthy for many more years to come. 

I'm in Maryland too, but not the same Breeder that your pup is from. I wish you many years of health and happiness with your girl.

I too wondered what happened with PG. Hopefully she'll be back...she's an invaluable member, as far as I'm concerned.

*I also learned that paying more for my pup does not mean that I'm getting more for my money. There are members here who breed exceptional dogs whose pups go for less than I paid for my precious overpriced boy.


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## Your my Boy Blue (Sep 23, 2011)

*Promise Land Puppy Owner*

I am an owner of a male from Promise Lands as well. I got our "Blue" in August he is one of Kassie and Tridents pups. I have read all the threads on here, and all I can say is wow! These posts do not seem informative to help anyone looking for a breeder. I will not defend the breeder, but I will say this. The puppies are raised in a home, with children and activity. My puppy is a well rounded pup, he is smart, listens well and is loving. As for what could happen down the road, who knows? Blue is not my only dog, as I have spent a life time rescuing pets and fostering, he is the only dog we have ever purchased, I can tell you that any piece of paper DOES NOT guarantee you a good dog. Unless a piece of paper is from GOD, how do you know if a dog is going to have bad hips, eyes, etc?? This breeder I do know is not out for the profit, I watched this breeder with the puppies from day 1 with them, she is invested in every one of them. As well as I know for a fact, if a issue has risen with them, because puppies are puppies, she has taken care of whatever needs to be done. Blue is a fantastic dog, and I can only imagine anyone else who has had the pleasure of dealing with Promise Land Golden's and the puppies feels as I do. For any other owners, do not second guess because someone has made a post, you chose with your heart and that is a good thing.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Your my Boy Blue said:


> you chose with your heart and that is a good thing.



But it is SO MUCH wiser to chose with your head. :wave:

You are correct that no piece of paper can guarantee anything but it absolutely improves the odds they will be a better chance of being healthy. 

I am very happy for you that your Blue is a fantastic and health dog. I wish you many more years of joy with him.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't jluke ask for comments on her breeder's breeding practices? And when is it not informative to compare the breeder's practices to what the GRCA COE recommends?


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

Sally's Mom said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't jluke ask for comments on her breeder's breeding practices? And when is it not informative to compare the breeder's practices to what the GRCA COE recommends?


Yes she did.

I got a little defensive when I first learned Ike's Breeder wasn't what I thought they were. I didn't want to learn that my Ike wasn't perfect and from perfect stock. Of course he is perfect, perfect for me.

I hope she sticks around and takes in all that this wonderful Forum has to offer.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

paula bedard said:


> Yes she did.
> 
> I got a little defensive when I first learned Ike's Breeder wasn't what I thought they were. I didn't want to learn that my Ike wasn't perfect and from perfect stock. Of course he is perfect, perfect for me.
> 
> I hope she sticks around and takes in all that this wonderful Forum has to offer.


I certainly wish I had found this forum before getting a puppy. I absolutely LOVE Tucker, and he's a great dog, but thanks to this forum, I now know what to look for in a breeder (and have found my next puppys breeder!).

AmbikaGR said it's perfectly. While a piece of paper doesn't guarentee a healthy dog, it sure does improve the chances! And isn't that worth investing in?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

No breeder IS perfect. I have said it before, that when anyone breeds dogs(good or bad breeders alike), the breeder is always making judgment calls and decisions about the breeding. Unfortunately, since so many of the genetic diseases do not have a DNA test,even with the most careful thought process, you can end up with problems. However, in my experience with the breed as an owner, breeder, purchaser, and veterinarian, the dogs who come from lines with GENERATIONS of clearances definitely have the deck stacked in their favor. I always ask parentage on client's Goldens, and lineage and clearances matter in the soundness of their dogs. And it is definitely not all about clearances: temperament and train ability, the ability to perform what the dog was bred to do, conformation, and more should go onto the breeding decision. And if I had bred any of my girls on their third heat, they would all have been younger than two. Emmie was in heat twice by one year !


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Why is the anti-clearance logic based on the idea that if you can't produce a perfect dog every time, you shouldn't bother with any of the tools that allow you to increase the chances of producing a healthier dog? It makes no sense at all.

These tools have been proven, over and over, to improve a dog's chances at a long, healthy life. They are cost effective because they provide more dollars in reduction of risk than they cost to obtain. And even if they weren't cost effective, they'd still be a no brainer because they provide a huge reduction in the risk of suffering for a dog.

Many of us have gotten a dog from a less-than-ideal source at one point. That doesn't devalue the wonderful dog we got, but a wonderful dog doesn't vindicate a bad breeder. A wonderful dog from a poorly planned breeding is a lucky outcome, not proof of a good breeder. 

The GRCA CoE represents a _bare minimum_ standard for a breeding. There are lots of other things that go into it, but the CoE represents the most obvious, most significant pieces of a good breeding. To ignore it, or to pick and choose which pieces you follow, willy nilly, should raise a red flag for any breed enthusiast or potential buyer.


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## jluke (Nov 18, 2011)

*Sticking Around...*

Hello again.

Actually, I've been on the forum before findng the thread about Promise Land which I actually stumbled on accidentally. I've been finding the Puppy thread paticularly interesting and useful, and, I think, been making some helpful posts there.

As I said earlier, I appreciate the knowledge on breeding considerations and requirements I've gained here.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Sally's Mom said:


> And for anyone who owns dogs, a corneal scratch will heal, so an abnormality on the cornea is not likely a scratch. I'm sorry, but as an owner and a veterinarian, that just bugs me.


 
I absolutely agree with what Sally's mom wrote here in regards to a scratch on the cornea. Years ago, one of our girls did such a thing-a corneal ulcer. She wasn't quite 2 years old at the time. They use a flouescent dye to see if there is damage to the cornea. It wasn't needed in our case as it was visible without the dye(meaning it was a pretty bad scratch) She was on drops and also had some ointment we had to put in her eye. They are typically treated with Atropine(a steroid and some antiobiotics) After the drops were finished and it still wasn't healing properly, the vet decided she needed surgery to help the cornea heal by ridding the dead cells.

The surgery worked wonderfully. She is now 11 plus years old and hasn't ever had another issue with her eye. She was a part of our breeding program and never had an issue clearing her CERF exam. Her first exam after the surgery, the optho asked me about a scar he saw on her cornea and I told him about the surgery. He couldn't see the scar in subsequent years that she was taken for her CERF exams. Her information is on the OFA website with no breeders options listed. I would be happy to share her name or CERF reports with anyone who is interested.


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## Sunblitzz (Jul 28, 2017)

I am reading these comments and learning. Can someone recommend a good local breeder? I've been looking but seems I hear good and bad about most all I've checked. I'm thinking maybe it's like most things. Good and bad everywhere. Just have to do your homework and hope for the best.


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Sunblitzz said:


> I am reading these comments and learning. Can someone recommend a good local breeder? I've been looking but seems I hear good and bad about most all I've checked. I'm thinking maybe it's like most things. Good and bad everywhere. Just have to do your homework and hope for the best.


Welcome to the forum. 

You may want to start a thread of your own in the Choosing a Breeder and puppy section. Tell members where you are willing to travel to get a puppy, what type of dog you are looking for, type of activities you want to do with your dog, etc. 

There's a search feature you can use also to look up breeders by State. 

Good luck in your search


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## needham3 (Oct 12, 2017)

I gave them a deposit but am alarmed about her breeding practices. I am beginning to get very concerned that she breeds many litters at once and although is very nice and seems thorough in her testing, is in for the cash. There isa puppy for us but am getting worried. We just went through a heartache with our American Golden suddenly dying in hours from cancer.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

needham3 said:


> I gave them a deposit but am alarmed about her breeding practices. I am beginning to get very concerned that she breeds many litters at once and although is very nice and seems thorough in her testing, is in for the cash. There isa puppy for us but am getting worried. We just went through a heartache with our American Golden suddenly dying in hours from cancer.


The truth is that 50% of all dogs will get cancer at some point in their lives. Dogs are currently getting cancer at higher rates than humans. There are a lot of unanswered questions but part of the problem is genetic and part of it likely lies in the amount of exposure our dogs receive to carcinogens in their environment. At this point the best we can hope for is that we could get our dogs the age of 10 or 12 without cancer. I'm sorry your dog was lost so quickly, it is how many dogs are lost, with no warning. My parents' heart dog, their Labrador Retriever was lost that way at age 11. It is heartbreaking.

I am afraid that this breeder is not one where I would personally choose to buy a puppy, the amount of personal attention and handling puppies need to receive for a good start in life is not easy to achieve when the breeder is having 3 litters at a time. My guess would be that they are not being raised in the house and with the breeder having (according to the website) around 20 dogs, I would have a hard time believing that the dogs live in the house, have you asked? Did you ask about how the puppies are raised and socialized?

The thing about breeders like this who brag about all the champions in their dogs' pedigrees but then don't bother showing their own dogs is another maddening aspect of 'puppy farmers' who are just mass producing puppies for money. If they don't show their dogs, the dogs never leave the property, how in the world do they know anything about proper temperament, working ability, correct structure or any of those things judged in competition?


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

needham3 said:


> I gave them a deposit but am alarmed about her breeding practices. I am beginning to get very concerned that she breeds many litters at once and although is very nice and seems thorough in her testing, is in for the cash. There isa puppy for us but am getting worried. We just went through a heartache with our American Golden suddenly dying in hours from cancer.


I would be concerned to. Unfortunately she is not as diligent in her health certifications as she should be. What is the most disappointing is she certainly knows what to do as this one dog shows. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1905970

Her girls listed as upcoming mommas leave a lot to be desired. 

Williow - eyes are expired and has no hip certification that meets the US testing. Her only hip is from a foreign country at just 12 months of age. That this breeder claims to always do PennHIP and there is not one available for her makes me wonder see if she had bad PennHIP scores. 

Skylar - Her eyes are expired. Her PennHIP was done at 17 months instead of 24 months or older. Her scores indicate her one hip is .31 which is a mild risk rating. PennHIP recently went away from percentages as they do not give a clear picture of risk. 

Rosie - all her tests say NOPI which means the vets did not verify the identity of the dog they tested with her chip. Her eyes are Expired. She has no verifiable elbow certification. Her PennHIP was also done at 16 months instead of 24 months or older. Both of her hips (.31/.43) are in the mild risk category.

She tests for a few things that are not known issues in our breed. It is very disappointing that for $2500 you would be getting spotty health certifications and from a beeder who doesn’t seen to do anything other the the Canine Good Citizen programs for which she is an evaluator. I would hope for that price you would not only get full health certifications but also parent with competitive title earned in the USA.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

As an aside- did anyone read the contract pages? Grammar spelling and general kinda crazy terms...


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> As an aside- did anyone read the contract pages? Grammar spelling and general kinda crazy terms...


Yes, pretty awful. I'm always amazed that people put these websites together yet have no one proof read them for content or typos etc. Nice attention to detail. I couldn't get past the fact that the contract states they will guarantee for hips for the first year of the puppy's life but if there is any problem it's no money back to help pay for treatment, they just ask for the puppy back and will give you another puppy.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

And Promise Land has 13 dogs on k9data and only ONE of them has all their clearances. One. And that one is the only one whose eyes are listed every year on OFA- strangely that one (Skylar) has had entropion every year till this one (which is actually 2 mo overdue) and I wonder about that. I have never heard of entropion resolving itself. So the question is, was a surgical correction to the eyelid done, and then not noted?


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Owner - Promise Land Goldens
Entropion is when the eye lid roles in slightly. For those that unaware of what it is. It can affect every breed of dog. This can also form in mixed dogs as well. Different factors can cause this. The first cause is if that dog squints to much it can actually train the muscles in the eyelid to roll. The second thing that may cause this. If a large headed male is put with a small headed female. There can be an excess of skin for the dog to grow into. This can happen to any breeding. Some breeds are actually bred to have loose skin on there faces. Such as bull dog type breeds. Many have to have a stitch to hold eyelid in place until the dog grows into loose skin. The stitch is then taken out and the dog is fine. Entropion can resolve itself without surgery. There are cases which the dog will have to much skin or trained muscles to turn under and will need surgery.
When OFA marks a puppy or dog which has had Entropion for any reason it will always be permanent on that dogs record. The Entropion could have been caused as easily as a odd growth spurt of the dogs head and then the grows and it disappears. That dog might never have again for it’s entire life. This goes for any dog in any breeder with OFA. It is believed that there maybe a genetic cause in some cases. Unfortunately they haven’t found the gene as of yet. Breeding the dogs believed to have a genetic form will give you a 5% chance it will transfer. 

Promise Land Goldens is not trying to put down other breeders (like I have seen done for many years), I am sharing some thoughts and lessons learned to educate the public as well as share what I have learned with other discerning breeders. Without continuous education we can’t ensure our work contributes to improved lines of the dog breeds we each love.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Owner - Promise Land Goldens
A few other things I have learned over the years. Even though cancer rates are lower in English Cream Goldens. They still have health issues. All Golden Retriever parents, whether English Cream Golden or American Golden, should be examined for hip issues, other diseases. The OFA and Pennhip are the most widely used in the USA for discerning hip health. This is done to determine if a dog has a genetic condition. 
Every dog, as they get older, will develop wear and tear of their joints. Understanding joint help has great potential to lower the frequency of canine hip dysplasia (CHD) when used as a selection criterion. 

It is not uncommon for many to challenge OFA results. The majority of the challenges we’ve researched occurred because the person taking the X-ray films did not line up the dog’s hips correctly. It is possible for a Vet Tech taking the films to not recognize this incorrect line up. The quality of an X-ray film depends on the skill of the person producing them. OFA does not regulate the training of film producers. The tests comparing positioning shows that the hip-extended position used by OFA tends to drive the femoral head into the socket, masking the amount of laxity and artificially improving the look of the hip joint. One radiologist may disagree with another and, on occasion, OFA radiologists may even contradict themselves and give different grades to the same film on different occasions. Two-year-old X-rays are examined by three radiologists who report their findings to OFA. If there is a disparity of opinion between the three the agreement of two radiologists is what the OFA documents as the hips’ status. The prelim OFA, which means the dog is less than two years of age, is produced by a single radiologist. The good points of OFA are that it is easily assessable (any vet with x-ray equipment can produce OFA films); the cost is reasonable and is better than no test at all.

A PennHip evaluation not only reports dysplastic, dogs with bone and cartilage abnormalities, but also points to the risk of the dog developing such radiographic signs later. While PennHip does measure laxity, it also looks at the integrity of the joint for dysplasia. The distraction index assigned to each hip joint is based on precise measurements and mathematical calculations.
Veterinarians who wish to submit films to PennHip are required to be trained in PennHip’s techniques and become certified. This assures that standard protocols are used in obtaining the films and ensures accurate data. PennHip’s techniques are accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. The Pennhip is most accurate at 1 year to 16 months. Pennhip includes hip-extended position, compression and distraction radiographic views. Pennhip's downside is that the cost is high and the requirement for Vet certification means they are not accessible as easily. 

Promise Land Goldens primarily uses Pennhip results for breeding. We have recently begun doing more OFA, for comparison; however we use the Pennhip results to determine breeding pairs. This year alone the 4 females bred using Pennhip evaluation scored Excellent to Good Hips with the OFA in their hip scores. One female received only a fair hip score by OFA. This female was produced using a parent pairing process that only utilized OFA results for the Sire. Using only OFA examinations Promise Land Goldens was unable to improve our breeding dogs hip health. The switch to more reliance on Pennhip examinations was to reduce the propensity for “fair” hip scores for dogs we bred to use in our program. NOTE for Breeders using Pennhip examinations: The OFA now posts Pennhip results on their site for all breeders and buyers to see. Our younger dogs will be on there. This was not available prior. The Pennhip changed the way they reported hips fairly recently and they can now be posted. If you submit a OFA prelim to OFA. 


As noted earlier, Promise Land uses Pennhip, which is most accurate around one year of age. Having done many studies on dogs we don’t recommend breeding females only one year old, even when a dog scores at the top 5% for hip tightness with PennHip. A one-year-old female breed before she is 2 years of age places inordinate weight from the puppies on her hips potentially pushing her hips out of socket causing the development of hip dysplasia. We have studied dogs through out their lives for research. A male bred younger didn’t have any real change in their hips when they turned 2 years of age. We feel this is due to them not having the female’s burden from carrying the extra weight. BOTTOM LINE: Please don’t use stellar PennHip results as a green light to breed your female before she is two years of age. 

Elbow dysplasia is a painful condition that can cause lameness and arthritis. Affected dogs typically show signs of this condition between 4 and 10 months of age. The cause for this is the same as hip dysplasia, to rapid skeletal growth. The most common clinical sign is intermittent or persistent front-leg lameness that gets worse with exercise. 

The trouble with Elbow Dysplasia is that the OFA has labeled any x-ray with some sclerosis as dysplastic. Sclerosis is the result of degenerative changes, from normal wear and tear, it will appear in any joint over time. Even humans have some by the time we hit twenty years old. However, some breeds can show a slight degree of sclerosis in the elbow joint by two years of age without any of the elbow conditions. That means the elbow will show Elbow Dysplasia Grade 1. While we should give OFA credit for all of their good services, this should not blind us to occasions and situations where they fall short. Occasionally they misread films and broaden Elbow Dysplasia diagnosis in a manner that is not helpful to those trying to improve their breed program. If a dog receives an OFA report indicating Elbow Dysplasia, and has no symptoms, a breeder should recheck their dog with a CT (Computed Tomography) as a Gold standard due to the propensity for OFA, during elbow screening to mischaracterize sclerosis as dysplastic. In Europe the standard is a 3-view x-ray for elbows. OFA is discussing going to a 3-view technique instead of 2 views. Although OFA knows that CT gives a much better view of joint they feel that there are still to many variables in CT for them to except those in their process. 

Promise Land Goldens appreciates all the wonderful efforts of OFA and PennHip. We will be using them for years to come. We hope by educating those around us who were unfamiliar with testing that all breeds of dogs in the future can continue to improve. 

Promise Land Goldens is not trying to put down other breeders (like I have seen done for many years), I am sharing some thoughts and lessons learned to educate the public as well as share what I have learned with other discerning breeders. Without continuous education we can’t ensure our work contributes to improved lines of the dog breeds we each love.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Owner - Promise Land Goldens

Purchasing our own dogs and then becoming breeders set us up for learning a great deal lot over the years. Vets, specialist (Orthopedics, Ophthalmologist, Cardiologist, Geneticist all for animals), studying overseas methods, and some of the largest dog research centers in the USA have all proven a wealth of information. I take an interest in an animal’s health; this comes from working in the medical field and treating friends, family and general patients throughout my life. 

Promise Land Goldens is not trying to putdown other breeders (like I have seen done for many years), I am sharing some thoughts and lessons learned to educate the public as well as share what I have learned with other discerning breeders. Without continuous education we can’t ensure our work contributes to improved lines of the dog breeds we each love. These are few things I would like to share; some of this may be old hat to those in the business.

In the beginning I believed that an ophthalmologist’s yearly eye test was sufficient for a dog I was planning to breed. I now know that this isn’t the case. Many fail to realize the importance of Prcd-PRA, Pra1, and Pra2 and how these are important indicators to track when working to eliminate genetic eye disease from your lines. Even though the parent’s of a litter may receive good reports from an ophthalmologist every year, and the parent’s never develop eye problems, this doesn’t mean that a puppy from these parents can’t go blind. Surprised???? Well this is absolutely true!

There is no cure or surgery that can correct these genetically caused problems. The catalyst for these problems are genetic chromosomal markers of the Sire & Dam, if not matched up correctly, they will spawn genetic issues in their offspring. I began studying genetics in 2015 and Promise Land began incorporating it into the breeding program at the end of 2015. 

Your dog, when genetically tested, will result in one of three different chromosomal test results:
Clear- No Chromosome marker
Carrier- A Chromosome marker is present
Affected- A Chromosome mutation is present (may or may not materialize into a problem)

Unfortunately you can’t eliminate all Carriers in certain chromosome mutations, 80% of dogs carry something on their genes. It is the understanding of how to match them up which achieves optimum results. 

Breeding a Pra1 Carrier to a Pra1Carrier will more than likely result in 25% Clear, 50% Carrier, and 25% AFFECTED. THIS MEANS ¼ OF THESE DOGs (THOSE THAT ARE AFFECTED) COULD BEGIN GOING BLIND BY THE TIME THEY ARE 3-4 YEARS OF AGE.

Breeding a Pra1 Clear Dog to a Pra1 Carrier Dog will likely result in 50% Clear and 50% Carrier. There WILL BE NO “AFFECTED” dogs; meaning no dogs with a genetic predisposition which could cause blindness.

Breeding a Pra1 Carrier to a Pra2 Carrier, different genetic abnormalities, will not produce dogs with a predisposition for genetically caused blindness. 

Breeding a Prcd-Pra Affected with a Prcd-Pra Carrier will produce a litter with a percentage which could GO BLIND around 3-4 YEARS of age.

There are numerous other scenarios as well. It is important to study and learn genetics. 

This affects every breed of dog. Please don’t think this only impacts Golden Retrievers. 

Given that genetic test results take 6-8 weeks to return (if a poor sample is submitted it take even longer time given the requirement to start over), it is not feasible for breeders to test every puppy; especially given that there are very few canine genetic labs in the world. 

Testing the parents is the key. Test’s can get expensive, however if your goal is to improve future generations of dogs there is NO BETTER way. Our use of genetic testing ensures our approach to breeding ensures no affected dogs are used in Promise Land Goldens’ program. 

I hear so much about Ichthyosis or ICH. This has been around forever. The canine form of Ichthyosis is not like the human form. Ichthyosis on dogs appears black on adults and white on puppies. It is flakes, or dandruff, on the skin. It is a genetic abnormality condition that has no cure. This is an autosomal recessive trait, meaning it can return in second-generation puppies.

The OFA is aware it returns in future offspring and only accepts first generation offspring. That means when both parents are tested and matched together. 

So if you see puppies “ICH cleared by parentage,” remember the parents should not be “second generation” parents, only FIRST GENERATION, (Ichthyosis returns). An ICH Clear dog bred to an ICH Affected dog will not produce any puppies with symptoms. Many dogs are ICH Affected and NEVER have signs of ICH ever materialize. Even if it does it normally doesn’t itch.

Ichthyosis affects many different breeds; it is not just a Golden Retriever concern. It is often confused with allergy dermatitis. Promise Land Goldens believes in doing all it can to remove chromosome mutations from its lines. Unfortunately there is no perfected genetic test to detect ICH causing chromosome mutations.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

There is so much half information here I can't even comment... it would take days to 'teach' you how your thoughts are only partially correct. But the one I want to hit on is the 'PH is most reliable at 1 year old' statement. That's patently untrue and you will not be able to document it. Yes they will do them at 1 year- but they are not MOST reliable at one year. And if you had sent them to OFA to be listed, no one would have pointed out your dogs do not have full clearances, but you didn't. OFA does not pick up the PH results without the owner sending them in. The rest of it, half truths and generalizations. It is best at all times to comply with the GRCA code of ethics, and then you would not find others pointing out the holes in your program. I hope you will consider doing this.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Owner Promsie Land Goldens

Purchasing our own dogs and then becoming breeders set us up for learning a great deal lot over the years. Vets, specialist (Orthopedics, Ophthalmologist, Cardiologist, Geneticist all for animals), studying overseas methods, and some of the largest dog research centers in the USA have all proven a wealth of information. I take an interest in an animal’s health; this comes from working in the medical field and treating friends, family and general patients throughout my life. 

Promise Land Goldens is not trying to putdown other breeders (like I have seen done for many years), I am sharing some thoughts and lessons learned to educate the public as well as share what I have learned with other discerning breeders. Without continuous education we can’t ensure our work contributes to improved lines of the dog breeds we each love. These are few things I would like to share; some of this may be old hat to those in the business.

In the beginning I believed that an ophthalmologist’s yearly eye test was sufficient for a dog I was planning to breed. I now know that this isn’t the case. Many fail to realize the importance of Prcd-PRA, Pra1, and Pra2 and how these are important indicators to track when working to eliminate genetic eye disease from your lines. Even though the parent’s of a litter may receive good reports from an ophthalmologist every year, and the parent’s never develop eye problems, this doesn’t mean that a puppy from these parents can’t go blind. Surprised???? Well this is absolutely true!

There is no cure or surgery that can correct these genetically caused problems. The catalyst for these problems are genetic chromosomal markers of the Sire & Dam, if not matched up correctly, they will spawn genetic issues in their offspring. I began studying genetics in 2015 and Promise Land began incorporating it into the breeding program at the end of 2015. 

Your dog, when genetically tested, will result in one of three different chromosomal test results:
Clear- No Chromosome marker
Carrier- A Chromosome marker is present
Affected- A Chromosome mutation is present (may or may not materialize into a problem)

Unfortunately you can’t eliminate all Carriers in certain chromosome mutations, 80% of dogs carry something on their genes. It is the understanding of how to match them up which achieves optimum results. 

Breeding a Pra1 Carrier to a Pra1Carrier will more than likely result in 25% Clear, 50% Carrier, and 25% AFFECTED. THIS MEANS ¼ OF THESE DOGs (THOSE THAT ARE AFFECTED) COULD BEGIN GOING BLIND BY THE TIME THEY ARE 3-4 YEARS OF AGE.

Breeding a Pra1 Clear Dog to a Pra1 Carrier Dog will likely result in 50% Clear and 50% Carrier. There WILL BE NO “AFFECTED” dogs; meaning no dogs with a genetic predisposition which could cause blindness.

Breeding a Pra1 Carrier to a Pra2 Carrier, different genetic abnormalities, will not produce dogs with a predisposition for genetically caused blindness. 

Breeding a Prcd-Pra Affected with a Prcd-Pra Carrier will produce a litter with a percentage which could GO BLIND around 3-4 YEARS of age.

There are numerous other scenarios as well. It is important to study and learn genetics. 

This affects every breed of dog. Please don’t think this only impacts Golden Retrievers. 

Given that genetic test results take 6-8 weeks to return (if a poor sample is submitted it take even longer time given the requirement to start over), it is not feasible for breeders to test every puppy; especially given that there are very few canine genetic labs in the world. 

Testing the parents is the key. Test’s can get expensive, however if your goal is to improve future generations of dogs there is NO BETTER way. Our use of genetic testing ensures our approach to breeding ensures no affected dogs are used in Promise Land Goldens’ program. 

I hear so much about Ichthyosis or ICH. This has been around forever. The canine form of Ichthyosis is not like the human form. Ichthyosis on dogs appears black on adults and white on puppies. It is flakes, or dandruff, on the skin. It is a genetic abnormality condition that has no cure. This is an autosomal recessive trait, meaning it can return in second-generation puppies.

The OFA is aware it returns in future offspring and only accepts first generation offspring. That means when both parents are tested and matched together. 

So if you see puppies “ICH cleared by parentage,” remember the parents should not be “second generation” parents, only FIRST GENERATION, (Ichthyosis returns). An ICH Clear dog bred to an ICH Affected dog will not produce any puppies with symptoms. Many dogs are ICH Affected and NEVER have signs of ICH ever materialize. Even if it does it normally doesn’t itch.

Ichthyosis affects many different breeds; it is not just a Golden Retriever concern. It is often confused with allergy dermatitis. Promise Land Goldens believes in doing all it can to remove chromosome mutations from its lines. Unfortunately there is no perfected genetic test to detect ICH causing chromosome mutations.

A few other things I have learned over the years. Even though cancer rates are lower in English Cream Goldens. They still have health issues. All Golden Retriever parents, whether English Cream Golden or American Golden, should be examined for hip issues, other diseases. The OFA and Pennhip are the most widely used in the USA for discerning hip health. This is done to determine if a dog has a genetic condition. 
Every dog, as they get older, will develop wear and tear of their joints. Understanding joint help has great potential to lower the frequency of canine hip dysplasia (CHD) when used as a selection criterion. 

It is not uncommon for many to challenge OFA results. The majority of the challenges we’ve researched occurred because the person taking the X-ray films did not line up the dog’s hips correctly. It is possible for a Vet Tech taking the films to not recognize this incorrect line up. The quality of an X-ray film depends on the skill of the person producing them. OFA does not regulate the training of film producers. The tests comparing positioning shows that the hip-extended position used by OFA tends to drive the femoral head into the socket, masking the amount of laxity and artificially improving the look of the hip joint. One radiologist may disagree with another and, on occasion, OFA radiologists may even contradict themselves and give different grades to the same film on different occasions. Two-year-old X-rays are examined by three radiologists who report their findings to OFA. If there is a disparity of opinion between the three the agreement of two radiologists is what the OFA documents as the hips’ status. The prelim OFA, which means the dog is less than two years of age, is produced by a single radiologist. The good points of OFA are that it is easily assessable (any vet with x-ray equipment can produce OFA films); the cost is reasonable and is better than no test at all.

A PennHip evaluation not only reports dysplastic, dogs with bone and cartilage abnormalities, but also points to the risk of the dog developing such radiographic signs later. While PennHip does measure laxity, it also looks at the integrity of the joint for dysplasia. The distraction index assigned to each hip joint is based on precise measurements and mathematical calculations.
Veterinarians who wish to submit films to PennHip are required to be trained in PennHip’s techniques and become certified. This assures that standard protocols are used in obtaining the films and ensures accurate data. PennHip’s techniques are accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age. The Pennhip is most accurate at 1 year to 16 months. Pennhip includes hip-extended position, compression and distraction radiographic views. Pennhip's downside is that the cost is high and the requirement for Vet certification means they are not accessible as easily. 

Promise Land Goldens primarily uses Pennhip results for breeding. We have recently begun doing more OFA, for comparison; however we use the Pennhip results to determine breeding pairs. This year alone the 4 females bred using Pennhip evaluation scored Excellent to Good Hips with the OFA in their hip scores. One female received only a fair hip score by OFA. This female was produced using a parent pairing process that only utilized OFA results for the Sire. Using only OFA examinations Promise Land Goldens was unable to improve our breeding dogs hip health. The switch to more reliance on Pennhip examinations was to reduce the propensity for “fair” hip scores for dogs we bred to use in our program. NOTE for Breeders using Pennhip examinations: The OFA now posts Pennhip results on their site for all breeders and buyers to see.

As noted earlier, Promise Land uses Pennhip, which is most accurate around one year of age. Having done many studies on dogs we don’t recommend breeding females only one year old, even when a dog scores at the top 5% for hip tightness with PennHip. A one-year-old female breed before she is 2 years of age places inordinate weight from the puppies on her hips potentially pushing her hips out of socket causing the development of hip dysplasia. We have studied dogs through out their lives for research. A male bred younger didn’t have any real change in their hips when they turned 2 years of age. We feel this is due to them not having the female’s burden from carrying the extra weight. BOTTOM LINE: Please don’t use stellar PennHip results as a green light to breed your female before she is two years of age. 

Elbow dysplasia is a painful condition that can cause lameness and arthritis. Affected dogs typically show signs of this condition between 4 and 10 months of age. The cause for this is the same as hip dysplasia, to rapid skeletal growth. The most common clinical sign is intermittent or persistent front-leg lameness that gets worse with exercise. 

The trouble with Elbow Dysplasia is that the OFA has labeled any x-ray with some sclerosis as dysplastic. Sclerosis is the result of degenerative changes, from normal wear and tear, it will appear in any joint over time. Even humans have some by the time we hit twenty years old. However, some breeds can show a slight degree of sclerosis in the elbow joint by two years of age without any of the elbow conditions. That means the elbow will show Elbow Dysplasia Grade 1. While we should give OFA credit for all of their good services, this should not blind us to occasions and situations where they fall short. Occasionally they misread films and broaden Elbow Dysplasia diagnosis in a manner that is not helpful to those trying to improve their breed program. If a dog receives an OFA report indicating Elbow Dysplasia, and has no symptoms, a breeder should recheck their dog with a CT (Computed Tomography) as a Gold standard due to the propensity for OFA, during elbow screening to mischaracterize sclerosis as dysplastic. In Europe the standard is a 3-view x-ray for elbows. OFA is discussing going to a 3-view technique instead of 2 views. Although OFA knows that CT gives a much better view of joint they feel that there are still to many variables in CT for them to except those in their process. 

Promise Land Goldens appreciates all the wonderful efforts of OFA and PennHip. We will be using them for years to come. We hope by educating those around us who were unfamiliar with testing that all breeds of dogs in the future can continue to improve. 

Lori Froderman
Owner - Promise Land Goldens
Entropion is when the eye lid roles in slightly. For those that unaware of what it is. It can affect every breed of dog. This can also form in mixed dogs as well. Different factors can cause this. The first cause is if that dog squints to much it can actually train the muscles in the eyelid to roll. The second thing that may cause this. If a large headed male is put with a small headed female. There can be an excess of skin for the dog to grow into. This can happen to any breeding. Some breeds are actually bred to have loose skin on there faces. Such as bull dog type breeds. Many have to have a stitch to hold eyelid in place until the dog grows into loose skin. The stitch is then taken out and the dog is fine. Entropion can resolve itself without surgery. There are cases which the dog will have to much skin or trained muscles to turn under and will need surgery.
When OFA marks a puppy or dog which has had Entropion for any reason it will always be permanent on that dogs record. The Entropion could have been caused as easily as a odd growth spurt of the dogs head and then the grows and it disappears. That dog might never have again for it’s entire life. This goes for any dog in any breeder with OFA. It is believed that there maybe a genetic cause in some cases. Unfortunately they haven’t found the gene as of yet. Breeding the dogs believed to have a genetic form will give you a 5% chance it will transfer. 

Promise Land Goldens is not trying to put down other breeders (like I have seen done for many years), I am sharing some thoughts and lessons learned to educate the public as well as share what I have learned with other discerning breeders. Without continuous education we can’t ensure our work contributes to improved lines of the dog breeds we each love.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Ms. Froderman, 
If you would utilize the OFA database, send in all your results, PennHip included, it would go a long way toward demonstrating your commitment to being an ethical breeder. I'm not sure why you are offended that you are held to the same standards as any other breeder when it comes to health clearances and making all results available on the OFA site. 

Please provide the documentation proving your statement that "cancer rates are lower in English Cream Goldens." What is the exact definition of an "English Cream Golden" and please post the link to the scientific study proving lower rates. I would love to see it.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Promise Land Goldens Owner

Like is stated on the website most of the adults are homed in Guardian Homes. This means they live with a family as a normal pet. When they retire they stay with there families. Some dogs go to work with there Guardian. If you would like to meet Dakota goto Warriors of Grace Karate School in Maryland. He is normally there with his Guardian which is the owner. There is no way i could keep that many dogs in our home which is cleared state on the website. 

Promise Land does have a puppy room off the side of the kitchen. Which has a heated floor , A/C and boxes for puppies with automatic waterers. We have numerous people which work with the puppies this is not done by one person alone and don't want to give that impression. We do numerous litters because some of our Guardians are vet technicians and can house the puppies in there own home as well as do health care. I have two daughter also which are vet technician's. Vet technician can take blood, give vaccines, bolus fluids, run a tube to a dogs stomach to feed, take X-rays, assist in surgeries, check blood and urine samples and many other functions in a veterinarians office. 

We do have a outside heated and A/C building to house dogs that are sent here for breeding. 
Our newest addition which is being build currently and will not arrive until July 2018 is a puppy play ground for training. All puppies come here by 5-6 weeks with mom. 

As far as showing. A dog who in shown in another country is it better or worse. Based on opinions. Dogs that are therapy dogs are trained to goto hospitals and nursing homes. We enjoy that much more than the Show Ring. We enjoy the smiles on the elderly face better that is just us. I am not a evaluator for the AKC. We have hired people who come in and train which are certified to help train therapy dogs. I am not sure how that impression got on the forum. 

I am not sure how to answer this. She tests for a few things that are not known issues in our breed. I am not sure about this statement? All the tests are problems that are seen in Golden Retriever's. I will continue to do these tests to improve the Golden Retriever. 


Hope this clarifies some of the Questions about Promise Land Goldens. 

Lori Froderman


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Your answers are not addressing the questions asked. 

The things you are taking up lots of space saying, ie, the genetics of PRA or ICT- those things are simple 4th grade Punnett Square genetics. 
It's nothing new. Rather than repeating prior posts, click 'quote' at the bottom of a post whose question you are answering, so that the question is obvious, and then answer it.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

nolefan said:


> *****,
> If you would utilize the OFA database, send in all your results, PennHip included, it would go a long way toward demonstrating your commitment to being an ethical breeder. I'm not sure why you are offended that you are held to the same standards as any other breeder when it comes to health clearances and making all results available on the OFA site.
> 
> Please provide the documentation proving your statement that "cancer rates are lower in ECG." What is the exact definition of an "ECG" and please post the link to the scientific study proving lower rates. I would love to see it.



Unfortunately, she doesn't care and continues to deflect into something else. Which of course is what you do when you are not truthful in your arguments. I think it's time to move on. Her kennel name we now come up very often in google searches, which is her goal. Most people don't bother to read the information contained in this thread. Instead they will focus on the fact the breeder has many mentions in a google search. The more often we type the breeder name or kennel name, the higher on the ECG search they will appear. Which is the breeders goal. This type of breeder subsists on google searches. Which is why I blanked the breeders name, converted the marketing phrase to ECG, and didn't use the kennel name in my post. I think that's what we all need to be doing to keep these kinds of people from profiting on our time and energy spent on debating their breeding programs. In the future, I think we all need to remove those search engine tags like: breeder name, kennel name, and marketing tags from our posts. It all works to their advantage, not ours unfortunately. I think that's why she makes sure to include her kennel name at the top of every post she makes. Then google will crawl and find all these links to her kennel name and help her searches more.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

As far as PennHip the two orthopedics i work with have stated to me that is the best time to do this test is at one year and they have there reasons. The Ofa pre-lim's are under the dogs clearances on the young ones we have just done and then sent the PennHip results to them. 

Educate me then. Instead of tearing me apart. Please educate me on what is wrong that i said. I have spoken to Vets, specialist (Orthopedics, Ophthalmologist, Cardiologist, Geneticist all for animals), studying overseas methods, and some of the largest dog research centers in the USA have all proven a wealth of information.

Did you know that the Morrison Foundation did a study on all large breeds that the flatter the back of a dog the better it's his and elbows. That goes for every breed out there. Were you aware the more slant in the back of a dog the more disproportional the weight is carried on that dog. Did you realize that is one reason Europeans wanted a more level back on there dogs. Color is just and option. Now you educate me from the research centers and different genetic labs you have spoken to. The different orthopedics you have consulted. Please tell me what all your specialist have said and the research papers you have read.


So before you go knocking all the breeders to guide them to the breeder who you want them to buy dogs from. I am aware that this site can be paid to list puppies and those people will try to guide buyers to go there. I have seen numerous good breeders over the years torn apart by this forum. How about try to educate me on how that is teaching those around you. To put down one person to guide them to another is not something i choose to do. I would rather help any breeder having problems or questions and educate them with what i have learned.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> Owner - Promise Land Goldens
> Entropion is when the eye lid roles in slightly. For those that unaware of what it is. It can affect every breed of dog. This can also form in mixed dogs as well. Different factors can cause this. The first cause is if that dog squints to much it can actually train the muscles in the eyelid to roll. The second thing that may cause this. If a large headed male is put with a small headed female. There can be an excess of skin for the dog to grow into. This can happen to any breeding. Some breeds are actually bred to have loose skin on there faces. Such as bull dog type breeds. Many have to have a stitch to hold eyelid in place until the dog grows into loose skin. The stitch is then taken out and the dog is fine. Entropion can resolve itself without surgery. There are cases which the dog will have to much skin or trained muscles to turn under and will need surgery.
> When OFA marks a puppy or dog which has had Entropion for any reason it will always be permanent on that dogs record. The Entropion could have been caused as easily as a odd growth spurt of the dogs head and then the grows and it disappears. That dog might never have again for it’s entire life. This goes for any dog in any breeder with OFA. It is believed that there maybe a genetic cause in some cases. Unfortunately they haven’t found the gene as of yet. Breeding the dogs believed to have a genetic form will give you a 5% chance it will transfer.


On entropion- at 4 months (first eye exam on Skylar) I might consider that his head growing would possibly, maybe, a small chance fix itself. But at 18 months he still has entropion. You cannot blame a weird growth spurt for his entropion. 
His headpiece is grown up at 18 months. 
His next exam is over 18 months later and it is miraculously gone- I just don't believe you could find any evidence that a headpiece changes enough after adulthood is reached - when it was diagnosed in adulthood, which it was- and was congenital. In dogs such as bulldogs, maybe- but a Golden whose headpiece is not particularly large or masculine anyway, such as Skylar's? Pedigree: Skylar Of Promise Land CGC, CGCA, CGCU. So while you spend several paragraphs discussing entropion in a vague way, you do not state what happened to Skylar. I'd also be interested in your 5% stat- where did you get that number?


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

I received the number from our optomologist who had been seeing Skylar. She told me most of the information and gave me a choice because she couldn't excluded her from breeding. She also explained to me that they haven't found the gene for it yet. So it hasn't been 100 percent proven to be genetic yet. It is theorized to be genetic. There is no test to test to see if genetic. The optomologist also explained it could be a growth abnormally. I am sure you are aware that the optomologist don't exclude them all because of this. 

It says it happened around 4 months at the OFA and the vet said we had the option to breed her on her health clearance to the OFA if you read it. 

I saw and spoke to several other optomologist over that year and received the same answers. Her father had a huge head if you take a look at him. Her mother had a smaller head set. Neither mother nor father has ever had another puppy in any other litter with entropion by us. Only when we paired them together this occurred. They were never bred together again. The vets felt that the pairing of the two caused the abnormal head growth. That was there opinion and not to breed the two together again. 


Also realize that since you can't look at her and tell she had an abnormal growth spurt as a puppy. If we saw a different optomologist since it is a group there is no way they would see it in her face later in life. Which i am sure you are aware of. 

However once that dog has had Entropion it is always apart of the OFA records. I am sure you are aware of this. They aren't going to drop her begging and we wouldn't ask them to. I am also sure you are aware that if i go back to the original vet which we saw the first two times. She may mark her again as having Entropion because of being in her records. That does not mean it is a active case it is up to the vets discretion as it's part of her history on how the vet mark's her. 

I also believe there is a statistic your vet can show you on the the study of Entropion which say's 5%. If that number has changed i am not aware of it or the new studies. I didn't make up the number and if you have another study i would be more than happy to read. There is no reflection. Just simply answering your questions about me. 

You guys might be aware, I am not sure. However there are also 1000's of breeders starting out that may need help. I am not hiding my name or myself due to if i can help someone i will, with the knowledge i have learned. It maybe elementary to you as you say but it may not to a breeder beginning. I just take a different approach.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Here is the summary from Over Seas on dog health since asked. 

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/16486/golden retriever.pdfT

European
The median age at death for Golden Retrievers was 12 years and 3 months. 
Cancer 38.8% Most common specific causes in descending order Type unspecified (liver, bone, unspecified)

American
I am sure you are aware Akc has lower the age on Americans Godens. American Golden is 10 years and 8 months life expectancy.
American Cancer was the cause of death for 61.8% of American Goldens according to a 1998 health study conducted by the Golden Retriever Club of America. Unless those statics have changed and there is a new study I am unaware of.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

My understanding of Goldens since asked. Lori Froderman

Goldens originated in the 1860's in Great Britain from foundation stock of a yellow Wavy Coated Retriever and a Tweed Water Spaniel (a breed believed now to be extinct). They were brought to America in 1890. All Goldens descend from this same foundation.

Golden Retrievers were first accepted for registration by the The Kennel Club (KC) of England in 1903, as Flat Coats - Golden. They were first exhibited in 1908, and in 1911 were recognized as a breed described as Retriever (Golden and Yellow) British Kennel Club (KC) . In 1913, the Golden Retriever Club was founded. The breed name was officially changed to Golden Retriever in 1920. Golden Retrievers were recognized by the American Kennel Club as a distinct breed in 1932.

Until around 1940 it is believed U.S., Canadian and English Goldens looked quite similar. The change in the breed did not materialize until around World War 2. Due to the negative impact of the war, dog shows in Great Britain were suspended while dog shows in North America where severely curtailed. As time went by the breed standards on each side of the Atlantic were modified independently, which may have further promoted the divergence in type. American fanciers assumed that the color alone eliminated it from consideration in the American show ring. Yet the rest of the world lighter shades are accepted and sometimes sought. European Golden Retriever are the original type, with the American and Canadian types diverging from during and after World War II. A Breeder's vision and how they interpret the breed standard in their country, combined with the types of Goldens they are used to seeing, greatly influenced breeding decisions.

Goldens, commonly referred to as English Cream in North America, remain unique in the Golden Retriever breed. The term "English/British/European Golden Retriever" does not necessarily indicate an English origin. It refers to the standard by which the breed is judged. In fact, even though the line is referred to as English Cream, the dog may have been bred in Scotland, Holland, Norway, Australia, Spain, or even Russia....and Not in England at all. The British KC standard is used in all countries except the USA and Canada. English/British/European Golden Retriever are the original type. The English Cream Golden Retriever is basically “a Golden Retriever bred to the KC standards with the American and Canadian types diverging during and after World War II. American Golden Retriever is “a Golden Retriever bred to the AKC standards.”


Differences Between the American Golden and the English Golden

The most obvious and eye-catching difference between the English/British Golden retriever and its American counterpart is the color of the coat. The English Golden Retriever can be cream in color and the American and Canadian Golden is much more red. Not all English Goldens are cream. Many very successful English Goldens have the same color coat as the American Golden. The American and Canadian Kennel Club breed standards golden color, the British standard specifically permits cream colored coats. However, there are many more important differences to be taken into consideration.

Topline & Hindquarters

AKC: Strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping backline, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted.

KC: Calls for level top line. Loin and legs strong and muscular, good second thighs, well bent stifles. Hocks well let down, straight when viewed from rear, neither turning in nor out.

Amazingly these supposedly similar requirements give a different angulation in practice! This is very visible on these Champion pictures below. English Goldens have more level top line with legs more straight, American Golden Retrievers usually have slightly sloping top line with legs standing more out.

Intersting fininding from the Seeing Eye corporation in America. Seeing Eye has reduced its Congential Hip Dysplasia to zero in their Lab colony. Their Goldens are not quite there yet, and their German Shepard colony has proven the most difficult in which to reduce the Congential Hip Dysplsia. As the Seeing Eye has improved the hips in their colony's, the dogs also began to return to having a more level topline vs. what is seen in the American show ring. When one looks at photos of GSDs of early times, they also have the more level topline reflected in the Seeing Eye GSDs today. The more level the top line they are finding the dogs to be less likely to have Congential Hip Dysplsia. The Europeans Goldens are bred with a level top line VS the Americans with the sloping backline. To breeders this study became important, making sure you are using dogs with a level topline. This will help improved your hip scores buy trying to elimanate CHD in your lines. 








Head, Neck, Eyes & Ears

AKC:

Head- Broad in skull, slightly arched laterally and longitudinally without prominence of frontal bones (forehead) or occipital bones. Stop well defined but not abrupt. Foreface deep and wide, nearly as long as skull. Muzzle straight in profile, blending smooth and strongly into skull; when viewed in profile or from above, slightly deeper and wider at stop than at tip. No heaviness in flews. Removal of whiskers is permitted but not preferred.

Eyes- Friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted.

Ears- Rather short with front edge attached well behind and just above the eye and falling close to cheek. When pulled forward, tip of ear should just cover the eye. Low, hound-like ear set to be faulted.

Neck- Medium long, merging gradually into well laid back shoulders, giving sturdy, muscular appearance. No throatiness.


KC:

Head and Skull- Balanced and well chiselled, skull broad without coarseness; well set on neck, muzzle powerful, wide and deep. Length of foreface approximately equals length from well defined stop to occiput.

Eyes- Dark brown, set well apart, dark rims.

Ears- Moderate size, set on approximate level with eyes.

Neck- Good length, clean and muscular.


In both standards there is no clear indication how big the head must be in comparison to the rest of the body. These different specs resulted somehow in a generally smaller head in American Goldens then in British Goldens. This is more visible for males then females usually.

British standard calls for a clean and muscular neck. It is perfectly understandable that for holding bigger head a dog need more muscular neck. Still there is no mentioning about any grooming, clipping whisker trimming in KC standard. And that is one of the fundamental differences. KC Standard concentrates on description of ideal specimen. The basic function of dog titles is to make its progeny to spread. Trimming, clipping and other procedures are irrelevant if offspring of this specimen is concerned. In America the way of showing the dog is frequently more important than the dog itself.

Another very characteristic difference is foreface and muzzle. AKC standard wants the muzzle to be straight but also states the foreface should be nearly the length of the skull. This resulted in smaller muzzle and more conical shape. Despite its more laconic form KC standard is more precise. It wants the length of foreface to be approximately length stop to occiput. English Goldens have definitely bigger and wider muzzles which influences stronger jaws.



Eyes– “Pure” American Goldens have their eyes very well apart usually while English type usually does not. Because US Golden Retrievers eyes are so well apart they tend to be slanted, narrow, triangular and detract from correct expression sometimes. In this their eyes are defying their own standard in contrast to the British Goldens 

Ears and specifically their position are another point of difference between the two types of goldens. AKC wants ears well behind and above level of eyes. KC wants them at the level of eyes. This causes two very different looks. 



KC: The British KC standard is used in all countries except the USA and Canada.

English-type Goldens are bigger-boned and shorter, with a deeper chest . Uk fanciers feel they excel in head properties, balance and forequarter structure.

Height-
Males should be between 56 and 61 cm (22 and 24 in) at the withers.
Females slightly shorter at 51–56 cm (20–22 in).

Weight-
KC: Is not specified. Stockier by nature they tend to be heavier in weight.


AKC:
The Amercian-type Golden is somewhat lighter in weight. Many North America fanciers feel that they tend to excel in rear quarters and movement.

Height-
Males should stand 23–24 in (58–61 cm) in height at the shoulders.
Females should be 21½-22½ inches.

Weight-
Males 65-75 pounds
Females 55-65 pounds.


KC:

Coat-
British breeding can have a coat color of any shade of gold or cream; 
Originally, cream was an unacceptable color in the UK standard, but the standard was revised in 1936 to include cream.



AKC:

Coat-
Amercian-type Golden Rich, lustrous golden of various shades (light, medium or dark golden). Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. They will loss points in the show ring.


Goldens can have a flat coat or wavy one.

Hopefully i have answered everyones questions. 

Promise Land Golden


Also if I am this horrible breeder which people try to make me out to be. Ask why are my dogs I bred in my new generation passing the OFA at all. According to everyone my dogs should all be failing but they aren't.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

The reason I haven't used the OFA until recently when they started Pennhip. I started breeding with the OFA Hip and Elbow scores years ago. I had a great male who passed at two years old with excellent hips according to OFA. I bred him great dog. One day about 6 months after his scores, he was running across my backyard. His hip dislocated. Why he had excellent hips per OFA. Well it ended up he had a genetic defect of a shallow acetabulum and would need a hip replacement. That could have been passed to his puppies. That was a really bad experience for me with the OFA. 

If i had know and done the PennHip he would have be disqualified on the table. My vet just tells me how it is. I didn't under stand back then that Pennhip includes hip-extended position, compression and distraction radiographic views. I then called the radiologist at OFA and learned more about them. I liked the Pennhip better and have been so much more successful with it. In the last two years I believe the Pennhip changed it is now able to be submitted to OFA. I really don't use the OFA reading at all. However the new dogs coming out no one can say they haven't had there hips done if OFA has results. I just simply didn't feel the need to submit to OFA for years with my older dogs if they wouldn't except my Pennhip results. It is just simply having a bad experiences with the OFA turned me off of them. We are starting to go back. I am not redoing my older dogs for them. If they were that bad of breeding dogs there children would not be passing OFA at all.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> Here is the summary from Over Seas on dog health since asked.
> 
> http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/16486/golden retriever.pdfT
> 
> ...


Here's the real thing on this- these are retrospective surveys- not studies- and are not controlled for origin of pedigree. Though I doubt it, every one of the Euro dogs could've been US pedigrees, and vice versa.. it makes for a great sales tactic to those who do not read critically but in reality these retrospective (which means, came from the vet records, no one actually saw these dogs) surveys are less than useless for determining anything.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> My understanding of Goldens since asked. Lori Froderman
> 
> Goldens originated in the 1860's in Great Britain from foundation stock of a yellow Wavy Coated Retriever and a Tweed Water Spaniel (a breed believed now to be extinct). They were brought to America in 1890. All Goldens descend from this same foundation.
> 
> ...


All dogs won't fail - and most pet puppies are never OFA'd to even have the info to decide this. 
Copy-pasting a breed standard does not say what you understand. It says what you have the skill to copy- paste. For instance- do you understand the proportions that are correct? What does eye shape mean to you? etc, etc.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> The reason I haven't used the OFA until recently when they started Pennhip. I started breeding with the OFA Hip and Elbow scores years ago. I had a great male who passed at two years old with excellent hips according to OFA. I bred him great dog. One day about 6 months after his scores, he was running across my backyard. His hip dislocated. Why he had excellent hips per OFA. Well it ended up he had a genetic defect of a shallow acetabulum and would need a hip replacement. That could have been passed to his puppies. That was a really bad experience for me with the OFA.
> 
> If i had know and done the PennHip he would have be disqualified on the table. My vet just tells me how it is. I didn't under stand back then that Pennhip includes hip-extended position, compression and distraction radiographic views. I then called the radiologist at OFA and learned more about them. I liked the Pennhip better and have been so much more successful with it. In the last two years I believe the Pennhip changed it is now able to be submitted to OFA. I really don't use the OFA reading at all. However the new dogs coming out no one can say they haven't had there hips done if OFA has results. I just simply didn't feel the need to submit to OFA for years with my older dogs if they wouldn't except my Pennhip results. It is just simply having a bad experiences with the OFA turned me off of them. We are starting to go back. I am not redoing my older dogs for them. If they were that bad of breeding dogs there children would not be passing OFA at all.


PH has ALWAYS been able to be listed on OFA. The COE states not what service you use to clear your dogs but that they are over 24 months of age and that they are publicly available to review on a closed database, such as (only ) OFA.
You can't know your dog's PH would have told you any more than OFA re: an accident reaction. It was an accident. We've all had things happen but what we do when we have something is what tells us whether we are ethical or not. I had an OFA Excellent bitch with an elbow clearance and clear eyes and heart. She began limping. I took her for a MRI. She had a FCP (elbow dysplasia) and was 3 YO. Did I breed anyway, since she had all her clearances? no. I spayed and placed her. Ethics are ethics. They require zero exceptions to the rule. They require a care for the breed more than a care for the pocketbook.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> As far as PennHip the two orthopedics i work with have stated to me that is the best time to do this test is at one year and they have there reasons. The Ofa pre-lim's are under the dogs clearances on the young ones we have just done and then sent the PennHip results to them.
> 
> Educate me then. Instead of tearing me apart. Please educate me on what is wrong that i said. I have spoken to Vets, specialist (Orthopedics, Ophthalmologist, Cardiologist, Geneticist all for animals), studying overseas methods, and some of the largest dog research centers in the USA have all proven a wealth of information.
> 
> ...


Here's another thing- it doesn't matter one whit what your orthopedists say about 'best time' when there is a huge set of organizations that determine this. OFA - orthopedic foundation for animals. GRCA- Golden Retriever Club of America. Both of these groups, who between them have WAY more knowledge than the two orthopedists who made this statement to you say 24 months. Therefore it is 24 months. Not 23 .5 months. Certainly not 12 months. We can't educate you- you have to just read the Code of Ethics, and understand it. Always have the breed's best interest at heart. And follow the COE, don't take what you think you heard from an ortho specialist (not convinced any ortho specialist would state that) and run with it- just follow the rules.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> So before you go knocking all the breeders to guide them to the breeder who you want them to buy dogs from. I am aware that this site can be paid to list puppies and those people will try to guide buyers to go there. I have seen numerous good breeders over the years torn apart by this forum. How about try to educate me on how that is teaching those around you. To put down one person to guide them to another is not something i choose to do. I would rather help any breeder having problems or questions and educate them with what i have learned.


Actually, litter listings and other forms of advertisement are strictly against forum rules. So when someone questions the reputability or ethics of a specific breeder, it is not done with the intention of drawing business to themselves or their friends. The breeders who post here, helping new buyers/perspective buyers wade through the websites and check to see if a breeder is following the GRCA CoE are doing so to best preserve the breed and to hopefully prevent heartache that comes when dogs get sick and/or die. 

I've only been on the forum for 6 years (with long breaks) and I've seen so many heartbroken owners come here for comfort and answers because their dog is sick. 

See the rules here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html



> 4. GoldenRetrieverForum.com Members are not to engage in spamming or any personal/business advertising without permission. – Unsolicited advertising , junk mail, "spamming," chain letters for self-promotion for monetary gain is not permitted, which may also include links to your sales oriented websites or informational sites that also contain sales or personal/business advertising. This applies not only to the body of a posting but also to member’s signatures, thread titles, Home Page, images, sounds, PMs, emails through this website, etc. . Links that connect to websites will not be considered unauthorized solicitations unless the link or the website content appears to be intended as a means of personal solicitation/monetary gains of a GRF member as determined by GRF Forum Management Team and/or the VerticalScope Inc. in its sole discretion. Watermarks will be permitted in photographs. Postings for selling, trading or giving away for free of medications (over the counter or prescriptions) as well as any food/treat items will not be permitted.
> 
> Members that are breeders shall not post links to their websites on the forum or in signatures. (Breeder links posted by other members looking for only breeder verification purposes is acceptable). No Member or breeders will post for any kind of breeding, stud services, discussions of proposed puppy/dog availability or sales. There will also be no open board discussions of accepting applications, pricing, and other breeder business information (such as web links, e-mail addresses or phone numbers) relevant to their own litters or the intention of ‘trolling’ for puppy buyers determined by the GRF Forum Management Team.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> Here's the real thing on this- these are retrospective surveys- not studies- and are not controlled for origin of pedigree. Though I doubt it, every one of the Euro dogs could've been US pedigrees, and vice versa.. it makes for a great sales tactic to those who do not read critically but in reality these retrospective (which means, came from the vet records, no one actually saw these dogs) surveys are less than useless for determining anything.


So you are telling me that even though Golden's originated over in Europe. They set the standard of the bred. The Americans changed the Golden Retriever here. That i should disregard studies done over seas because they are bogus. Although the Americans have redone a lot the studies from over seas and gotten the same results. That only our studies and ways are correct. Please show me our studies that are correct and I will be happy to read them or are they bogus as well done in the USA.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> All dogs won't fail - and most pet puppies are never OFA'd to even have the info to decide this.
> Copy-pasting a breed standard does not say what you understand. It says what you have the skill to copy- paste. For instance- do you understand the proportions that are correct? What does eye shape mean to you? etc, etc.


The goldens were originated in Europe. The Americans changed the dog. Who is to say which standard is correct. You say only the Americans shape of the eye is correct. That is not for me to choose and call a breeder a bad breeder due to the standard they follow. You choose to follow only one mind set and one set of rules. That is not for me to say wether you are wrong or right. If you are successful in your breeding program that is all that counts. You probably choose the Akc rings for showing and there breeding protocols. That is great if that works for you. I am not hear to explain which country is correct in standard, eye shape or body alignment. That is not for me to say which standard is all knowing. There is actually more than one way to do something and you can be successful.

I chose to study all countries and see what is successful for them. If i only follow one belief i would never have improved at all. 

That was proven clearly to me when i followed in the begging only doing OFA Hip scores. I never improved. The dogs never got any better. When i broadened my studies and changed my ways I began to get better. No I didn't follow what you feel is correct. That doesn't make a person a bad breeder if they find a better way for them.

I didn't go out and seek out specialist and pay three times the price for hips because i was already successful. The cheaper and more easily assessable test was not improving me or my program in anyway. 




I don't choose to ignore the other countries. If i find that Spain, Russia has a better way. I will once again change. If the USA of America proves to have the better way i will switch back. However i won't follow what everyones say is correct if it doesn't bring me success. I am sure next year you will find something else to pick on me about. It is a almost a yearly thing. I just don't choose to discount breeders all over and narrow my points of view.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> So you are telling me that even though Golden's originated over in Europe. They set the standard of the bred. The Americans changed the Golden Retriever here. That i should disregard studies done over seas because they are bogus. Although the Americans have redone a lot the studies from over seas and gotten the same results. That only our studies and ways are correct. Please show me our studies that are correct and I will be happy to read them or are they bogus as well done in the USA.


Perhaps you aren't understanding what I am saying- the surveys you are calling studies are not studies- they are retrospective surveys... a "study" is one thing that has a defined meaning, a "survey" is what you are calling a study. Studies are controlled - there is real meaning in a study. A survey, particularly these surveys, are not controlled for similar ages, for instance. They did not touch on pedigree or origin of pedigree, they only assumed the dogs they acquired the records on were actually from the country in which the survey was done. They were not done at the same time, and no one looked at pedigree, the American dogs could actually have all been Euro imports... and vice-versa. Since all the things that would actually matter on cancer development were not controlled for, the surveys are useless to say yay or nay on which origin if any would lend itself to cancer development. If you accept info that seems to bolster your position without looking at it critically, it isn't going to give you what you hope to gain from it, it is only going to continue to scam unsuspecting buyers. Retrospective surveys are interesting but nothing more- these two were not done in conjunction with each other, and were not ever meant to be comparative surveys.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I wish your program would comply with the Code of Ethics for the breed club in the country in which you live. If it did, it would be one of very few EC type breeding programs that do- and believe me, we'd be giving thumbs up to your program every time someone came and inquired about an EC type dog.... 
There is no one here shifting people from bad breeders to other breeders we consider good breeders, we are educating buyers on the difference in surveys and studies, and what clearances should be done at what age. When they are not done per the CoE in THIS country, where the puppy is being sold, the buyer needs to know that. 
Individual litters are never advertised here, nor is availability of puppies. What IS listed here is regional breeder lists that only include breeders who follow the Code of Ethics. If you followed the CoE, you would be on the list for your region. You are so close on so many dogs, it would be simple for you to just stay away from any slippery slopes, like breeding Gr1 elbows, and follow the rules for the country you live in. And then there would be no need to feel like you have to come defend your choices that are not in compliance, since you would only be making choices that benefit the breed as a whole.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Lori Froderman said:


> I am aware that this site can be paid to list puppies and those people will try to guide buyers to go there. I have seen numerous good breeders over the years torn apart by this forum. How about try to educate me on how that is teaching those around you. To put down one person to guide them to another is not something i choose to do. I would rather help any breeder having problems or questions and educate them with what i have learned.


Perhaps someone has already addressed this - I'm still working through the posts, but you would be incorrect. No one pays to list their own puppies, in fact, they cannot list their own puppies here, it's against the forum rules. Most of the participating breeders don't NEED to list puppies here, they already have waiting lists.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

*Referring to breders.*



Brave said:


> Actually, litter listings and other forms of advertisement are strictly against forum rules. So when someone questions the reputability or ethics of a specific breeder, it is not done with the intention of drawing business to themselves or their friends. The breeders who post here, helping new buyers/perspective buyers wade through the websites and check to see if a breeder is following the GRCA CoE are doing so to best preserve the breed and to hopefully prevent heartache that comes when dogs get sick and/or die.
> 
> I've only been on the forum for 6 years (with long breaks) and I've seen so many heartbroken owners come here for comfort and answers because their dog is sick.
> 
> See the rules here: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...6-grf-board-rules-registration-agreement.html



I have watched this site bash me since 2011. You have used my Kennel name name over and over through the years. So please don't try that. 


I have seen this site over and over again refer a buyer to a dealer " they are the only person i would ever use" and bash another breeder. This breeder does the basic four clearances with OFA and they are the "person they would buy from." While downing other breeders not just my self. 

What i haven't heard from this site is you inform those buyers that there is more tests and more accurate test that could be used. I haven't heard you tell that buyer this site just referred them to, there new puppy they are buying may go blind by three years old. That the puppy they are buying may also have skin problems. You made the referral and sent that customer that way but left out the rest. There are breeders doing more accurate tests and trying to eliminate these things. I at first thought maybe this site didn't understand and that was the case. That was my original purpose on trying to educate. Instead i am getting replies when i am explain this information. That the information is " just basic elementary information and nothing new". I am really now questioning the real ethics of the breeders on this website. Since this is such basic information that they know but continue to bash breeders trying to clear and improve Golden's from whatever country the dog comes from. 

Please don't try to make this about advertising and selling when it is clearly about education and ethics. Please don't try to make this about something that it is not. I am clearly trying to figure this forum out. Please don't also try to tell me this site itself didn't bring to question there ethics by bashing me for years. 

I want to point out from a breeder perspective. By bashing me year after year and putting me down since 2011. That was never trying to help me. That was driving me farther and farther away from the GRCA and there beliefs. 

Lori Froderman


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You do not spend enough time here to know it, but we do tell people when we see a carrier being bred to a bitch who hasn't been tested for ICt. We do tell people when someone is doing something out of line with the CoE and best practices- which is how YOU got flagged as not being the best. No one is picking on you since 2011, you are not anyone's focus- but as long as you do not follow the CoE you are going to continue to be flagged as a less-than stellar breeder. It's all on you to follow the CoE. You can continue to imagine it is about hating on you but in reality it is just that you are not compliant with the Code.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Don’t want to get poor reviews? It’s easy, just follow the code of ethics. I would think this would doubly be on your mind since you are participating in the AKC Bred with H.E.A.R.T. Program that you are currently not complying with. I guess I am just odd in that if I agree to do something, I do it. My word and reputation mean more to me than a quick buck and foisting inaccurate information on those with less knowledge than me. 

You certainly do need an education but sadly I don’t think you are really looking for it. Your comparison of the breed standards points out that your understanding is very shallow. You are hung up on words with out understanding the meaning behind them. A great example of this is your fixation on a level top line. The KC standard is very sparsely worded and assumes the reader has a foundation knowledge in structure. 

KC - Level topline.
AKC/GRCA - Back line — strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping back line, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted.

These two standards are actually saying the same thing to a student of structure. The back line is to be level in both. The croup description is missing from the KC version as it is understood that a slightly sloped croup would be required for a hunting dog to move. A flat (think cow rear) croup is not a croup that allows ground covering strides that a hunting dog needs. The pictures on your website are a travesty for comparison. They are not shot from the same angle and the American dog clearly has a Backline fault (in the picture but may not in real life) as the AKC standard specifically says a sloping back line is to be faulted. The image below is a much more fair comparison. I wish the one photo was a little more crisp but you can see the back line is level and both have (and need) a slightly sloping croup when tails are not held. So much of the argument that the two standards mean two different types is because people do not have an eye for structure and get hung up on color, grooming and ring presentation style. 

I really hope you decide to do the ethical thing and start meeting the requirements you promised to. I also hope you get out and get active. New mentors and peers that push you to what is better and not what is easy or profitable would do your dogs and puppy buyers a world of good.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> You do not spend enough time here to know it, but we do tell people when we see a carrier being bred to a bitch who hasn't been tested for ICt. We do tell people when someone is doing something out of line with the CoE and best practices- which is how YOU got flagged as not being the best. No one is picking on you since 2011, you are not anyone's focus- but as long as you do not follow the CoE you are going to continue to be flagged as a less-than stellar breeder. It's all on you to follow the CoE. You can continue to imagine it is about hating on you but in reality it is just that you are not compliant with the Code.


You are correct in some of your statements any body can copy the guidelines. I placed that to get answers not to debate who has the best dogs. I am aware that the forefront of the dog being to heavy will cause elbow problems. The level of the back can cause hip and elbow problems. The head set of to dog bred together incorrect cause to much loose skin, the eye set to far apart and the slant is off causing eye issues. I am aware that not ever Sir is genetically match to be bred with every Dam. Nor is every body type of dog compliment to the other. There are numerous things a breeder has to account for and learn. I am completely aware that breeding is a learning skill. I am also aware breeders grow with time.

I am aware that this group is not a reflection on the GRCA. I know to many judge of the AKC shows that have yell at me for years. They have chastised me about not competing with my dogs due to there conformation and health. I grew up in the show rings showing others dogs. I have shown many other different breeders. I have spent many hours reflecting on skills i have learned with them as well. I have spoken and learn a great deal with many breeders and judges all over the world and the International Shows as well. 

I have done this in a diplomatic way to find out my own information. I have pre limed five females just this year which I have bred myself. They have all passed both Pennhip looks and OFA. These females will not begin until next year when there parents are retire. The parents are also some i have bred myself. I haven't had one fail this year. That would not happen if a was the breeder you said i was. I avoid skin problem in my breeding and genetic eye problems due to learning the hard way. If that makes be a less that stellar breeder please feel free to bash me. I don't treat others like that and don't want to ever be placed in that category.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

LJack said:


> Don’t want to get poor reviews? It’s easy, just follow the code of ethics. I would think this would doubly be on your mind since you are participating in the AKC Bred with H.E.A.R.T. Program that you are currently not complying with. I guess I am just odd in that if I agree to do something, I do it. My word and reputation mean more to me than a quick buck and foisting inaccurate information on those with less knowledge than me.
> 
> You certainly do need an education but sadly I don’t think you are really looking for it. Your comparison of the breed standards points out that your understanding is very shallow. You are hung up on words with out understanding the meaning behind them. A great example of this is your fixation on a level top line. The KC standard is very sparsely worded and assumes the reader has a foundation knowledge in structure.
> 
> ...


Please if you feel the need to bash me your are welcome. If it makes you feel better as a human being to put others down on this website. You are welcome to use me. I will still continue to try to learn from breeders in the USA and Over Seas. I will always continue to try and improve the breed. I also will not try to hurt others.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

If that was totally true. I see a lot of angulaton in this American and less in this European./Users/lorifroderman/Desktop/6a96be_7b443ddf38b34204aa0c35f1a2adbc60.jpg/Users/lorifroderman/Desktop/6a96be_d9a87c8a1eb71bba70888051ba0305ac.jpg


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lori Froderman said:


> If that was totally true. I see a lot of angulaton in this American and less in this European./Users/lorifroderman/Desktop/6a96be_7b443ddf38b34204aa0c35f1a2adbc60.jpg/Users/lorifroderman/Desktop/6a96be_d9a87c8a1eb71bba70888051ba0305ac.jpg


IF it helps...

This is a level back. 

I can tell you that how a dog stands will cause the appearance of a slanted back. My dog is more "squatty" in win pics sometimes. Drives me nuts, but I'm short and it's very difficult for me to get him stacked up properly. And it's not just me. Have seen a lot of win pics posted on K9data and elsewhere and your eyes are drawn to that topline. 

In the ring - it is very difficult to win with a dog with high shoulders. You have to be a very good groomer or good at setting up the dog to lessen the appearance of the high shoulders. Otherwise, you are giving a good judge a very easy reason to look past your dog. 

My dog used to "post" as a young dog when I started showing. Posting is a dog who is slouching back on his rear vs "pushing forward". 

Speaking as somebody with a 5 year old who is chasing his last major to finish (owner handled all the way). I see judges focus a LOT on the front end and shoulders. And it's them seeing something from the middle of the ring and clarifying whether that is muscle or not. They really dig into those shoulders. 

But more than topline, judges are not supposed to focus on 1 area over everything else. A lot of european style dogs, for example, have the appearance of nice fronts from pics (could be grooming or could be real, difficult to tell because the grooming style over there sometimes is geared towards creating more front angle than actually is there). But their rears are not as good and they seem to be very short and long. 

Length - might add - is another thing that is presumed to be encouraged and bred for, but have talked to breeders and judges who are paying attention. And handlers are creatively grooming to lessen the appearance of a long back as well - and they do that because the judges are paying attention. 

Coat quality and ease of care - to me is something that a lot of people leave out of their wish list. You should be able to let your dog get wet and not worry about how the coat dries. That's the case with my dog who shakes excess moisture off and keeps trucking, drying shortly after with no skin problems or coat problems. 

There's people out there putting slickers on the dogs to keep the coats from getting rumpled and that's bad enough, but there's others who have a lot of skin problems with the dogs. And that's not ichy, clearly immune system related issues with the dogs very quick to develop hot spots. 

Structure from head to tail and overall quality - it covers a lot of areas. 

It gets frustrating when you see european style breeders who are trying to qualify what they breed when they do NOTHING with the dogs but breed and they make a lot of ignorant or false claims about breed standards and how the dogs stack up. 

And what Robin (Prism) said about doing the full clearances is something that would help your cause better than coming on here and arguing. Just the clearances done. When people inquire about puppies from any breeder, the very first thing that people do is check the clearance status on both parent dogs. That's bare minimum what they are doing as a favor to people out who are looking for puppies. Might still not be where people personally look to purchase puppies from, but to help others there's 2-3 qualifications that we do look for.

1. Are full clearances on the parents? And this includes, does the breeder make it very EASY to find the clearances without inquiring directly. Are the parents registered names posted on the websites? And are all the clearances posted publicly on OFA? And this includes hips/elbows done at or after 24 months, hearts done after 12 months, and eyes done yearly but at least the same year that breeding was done?

2. Is the breeder breeding purebred golden retrievers? Is there every clear sign that they are NOT producing mutts? There's a lot of European style breeders who are also pumping out doodles - and that's just really WRONG. 

3. Can you tell the difference between this breeder and a puppy mill? Also can you tell the difference between this breeder and a goat farm? <= This is pretty important to ME, because if the dogs are filthy, clearly poorly cared for, showing signs of health problems, shaved, roached backs, obese, etc.... it's clearly visible, no matter how the breeders attempt to prettify the pictures. Might add, NO pictures posted is also a warning sign.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> Please if you feel the need to bash me your are welcome. If it makes you feel better as a human being to put others down on this website. You are welcome to use me. I will still continue to try to learn from breeders in the USA and Over Seas. I will always continue to try and improve the breed. I also will not try to hurt others.


You have an incorrect assessment of my character here. It is not about being mean or the other nasty character traits you allude to. It is about a fact based reveiw of a business so that the weakest positioned party in the interaction, the puppy buyer can make their best decision with full disclosure of facts. They deserve that opportunity.

Rough estimate is that your kennel has in just the first half of the year pulled down $60,000-$70,000; plus you still have many breedings planned. If you stay on course 2018 might well be a 6 figure year for you. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a breeder making money as long as they are being fair, honest, and ethical. 

You are a business and as such, you have no choice but to be subject to review. There is nothing malicious in pointing out a contractor claiming to be licensed and bonded is not, if any of the public checks up on the claims and finds they are inaccurate. That is what is happening here to you. You have presented yourself as a breeder that has full certifications on your dogs, yet you do not. You can choose to be upset by that, pull out your victim card and play wounded all you want. It does not sway me to not show the deficits, inaccuracies and ethical failings to potential buyers. They should have the right to know so they can decide if your corner cutting is something they are willing to shoulder the risk for. It feels very disingenuous to claim this forum is acting in a bullying fashion when you are making 5 to 6 figures on the ignorance and trust of others. 

So, here is the thing, it does feel raw to have your ethical flaws put out there (especially when it is publicly verifiable) that you are not keeping your commitments and word. I can understand why you are upset and frustrated. You have been breeding since 2007, you say this forum has been “bashing” you since 2011 and at least as far back as 2017 (maybe more) you have agreeded to fully test as part of the Bred with H.E.A.R.T program. You have one dog that meets the requirements so you know how to do this. Why have you not taken any time or effort in the last 8 years or the last year to fix this?

When it comes to the core 4 health certifications, you don’t have anything to learn. You are clearly aware and capable of doing it. I am just at a loss as to why you don’t and why anyone who points it out to unsuspecting buyers gets demonized by you a some sort of sadistic bully.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> If that was totally true. I see a lot of angulaton in this American and less in this European./Users/lorifroderman/Desktop/6a96be_7b443ddf38b34204aa0c35f1a2adbc60.jpg/Users/lorifroderman/Desktop/6a96be_d9a87c8a1eb71bba70888051ba0305ac.jpg


I can’t see the photos you tried to share. What I will say is it is easy to find pictures of dogs with faults to support any position. 

I could do the same thing with one of yours and one of mine. I could post the pictures below and say clearly American dogs have more level back lines and are not over angulated in the rear and European dogs clearly have issues with sloping back lines and too much rear angulation.

That however is not accurate or fair and neither are the two photos you have on your website. There are no perfect dogs. Every single one has faults and yes certain faults are more ingrained in certain lines. In general European dogs have stronger front assemblies but legs have big issues with being easty westy and rears are generally weaker. American dog generally have stronger/straighter legs and feet, better rears but weaker fronts and too much coat. But, these are generalizations. And the weaknesses or faults are also not correct for either breed standard. Just because there is a preponderance of a specific fault in a group of dogs doesn’t mean that is correct breed type.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Double post


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

LJack said:


> You have an incorrect assessment of my character here. It is not about being mean or the other nasty character traits you allude to. It is about a fact based reveiw of a business so that the weakest positioned party in the interaction, the puppy buyer can make their best decision with full disclosure of facts. They deserve that opportunity.
> 
> Rough estimate is that your kennel has in just the first half of the year pulled down $60,000-$70,000; plus you still have many breedings planned. If you stay on course 2018 might well be a 6 figure year for you. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a breeder making money as long as they are being fair, honest, and ethical.
> 
> ...









This is a perfect example why i don't believe in your rules. I just had two sisters test in OFA and PennHip. The one gets a .38/ .47 hips the other gets a .42/.48 with Pennhip. Which normally those rating are good hips with OFA as you probably know in the mild risk range. I normal get a Fair in the .50 range or moderate risk range.The OFA gives one sister good hips the other sister hip dysplasia. These aren't even in the same ballpark of each other. I proceed to send them the Pennhip results and explain there must have been a mistake to OFA. They must have been looking at wrong films. First if I hadn't had the Pennhip results i would have never know there was a mistake with the one sister. I would have disqualified her on the spot no question asked. I was nice I contact OFA mentioned the problem. I am told I have to pay and go get more films done because there may have been a mistake with that reading. It amazes me that Pennhip received the same films and they were able to interpreted them correctly. Also these films were done by specialist who was specially trained and both dogs put to sleep. I paid $1000 a piece for each sister. My specialist who took the films also thinks it is a totally mistake on the OFA side. If they were bad films the Pennhip would not have read them. This dog currently isn't on the website. I have pulled her off because of the OFA results. I just received them this week. I am currently deciding if it is a waste of my time and money to have the hips redone for OFA. 

This is not the first I have gone through this with OFA. It has happened before. With a male i bred that was called excellent at 2 years by OFA and I didn't due a Pennhip back then. That male actually had shallow acebullum's which you are aware is genetic and i was breeding him due to his 2 year Excellent result by OFA. The dog was running across my back yard dislocated a hip. Had to have a hip replacement. I also had to pay for one of his puppies to have b/l hip replacements. That was a really expensive lesson to learn that had i done Pennhip when they put the pressure on the hips it would have slide right out of socket. That dog would have been disqualified right on the table by my vet. 

So everyone tells me I am to go back to a inferior test which constantly makes mistakes.
If i don't do what you guys say they call me a bad person. Well I believe differently than you guys. I truly don't believe that the hips and some elbows are done accurate by OFA. I truly believe that Pennhip is superior and have been able to get better scores with my dogs. I am thankful now that in recent times the OFA excepts Pennhip to list on there sight. That way no one can say results aren't real. This was not available in earlier years. The newer generation can be done that way. I feel like people want me to do inferior testing because that is the rules. Well I started out OFA and learned with experience dealing with them. 

Also when you talk about money don't give the impression all those dogs live here. Don't give people the impression i even do all the clearances. Some of those dogs don't even live in the state of Maryland. I get a pay check from the dog. The Guardian doing the work get's paid. So please don't give the public the wrong idea that the amount of money said in your posts comes to me. That is totally untrue. Those dogs have good homes and live with there families who just have one to three dogs. When they retire they well also stay with that family. The dogs get a lot of attention from there families. 
When you look at someones website you are assuming things. Many of those dogs do therapy work in the community. One goes to abused women shelters. Another goes to a autistic program for children. Several go to hospitals. That is the whole reason we pay a certified AKC trainer to come to us and train the dogs. 


So please don't look at that website and assume things that are untrue and make statement's about me that are false. Every litter born and the guardians pay a small portion of that website. It does state on the website that not all the dogs live here.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

*Did you read the very first page?*



Lori Froderman said:


> Here is the summary from Over Seas on dog health since asked.
> 
> http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/16486/golden retriever.pdfT
> 
> ...


Here is what is written on the very first page of the paper you attached:

_*Warning: The results of this survey and particularly the breed-specific analyses
should be interpreted with caution. The overall response rate was
only 24% with breed-specific response rates from 4.5% to 64.7%.*_

The return rate for Goldens was only 16% - how can you even begin to call this a realiable survey? Basing the claims you make regarding cancer rates on responses from a total of 538 returned responses is disingenuous to the point of being despicable. 

The AKC site gives the average lifespan of Goldens as 10-12 years. The 'study' you've attached gives the average life of the GOldens returning a response as 12 years. Cancer was their leading cause of death. Hardly a scientific study.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> This is a perfect example why i don't believe in your rules. I just had two sisters test in OFA and PennHip. The one gets a .38/ .47 hips the other gets a .42/.48 with Pennhip. Which normally those rating are good hips with OFA as you probably know in the mild risk range. I normal get a Fair in the .50 range or moderate risk range.The OFA gives one sister good hips the other sister hip dysplasia. These aren't even in the same ballpark of each other. I proceed to send them the Pennhip results and explain there must have been a mistake to OFA. They must have been looking at wrong films. First if I hadn't had the Pennhip results i would have never know there was a mistake with the one sister. I would have disqualified her on the spot no question asked. I was nice I contact OFA mentioned the problem. I am told I have to pay and go get more films done because there may have been a mistake with that reading. It amazes me that Pennhip received the same films and they were able to interpreted them correctly. Also these films were done by specialist who was specially trained and both dogs put to sleep. I paid $1000 a piece for each sister. My specialist who took the films also thinks it is a totally mistake on the OFA side. If they were bad films the Pennhip would not have read them. This dog currently isn't on the website. I have pulled her off because of the OFA results. I just received them this week. I am currently deciding if it is a waste of my time and money to have the hips redone for OFA.
> 
> This is not the first I have gone through this with OFA. It has happened before. With a male i bred that was called excellent at 2 years by OFA and I didn't due a Pennhip back then. That male actually had shallow acebullum's which you are aware is genetic and i was breeding him due to his 2 year Excellent result by OFA. The dog was running across my back yard dislocated a hip. Had to have a hip replacement. I also had to pay for one of his puppies to have b/l hip replacements. That was a really expensive lesson to learn that had i done Pennhip when they put the pressure on the hips it would have slide right out of socket. That dog would have been disqualified right on the table by my vet.
> 
> ...


Lori *sigh* yet another straw man argument that never touches on the meat nor the intent of my post. 

Are you currently by your own will participating in a program that requires you to do the core 4 tests as laid out by the GRCA? Yes. 
Are you actually doing that? No

Therefore I assume nothing but instead have verified proof you don’t have full and verifiable health certifications as you should. 

As far as PennHIP, literally no one cares that you use them. They are absolutely an approved and acceted testing organization and should you just follow through with testing at 24 of more months and listing them on OFA you could meet the requirements of the voluntary program you agreed to. 

As far as the money, it is accurate to my knowledge. You charge 2500.00 per puppy and based on the numbers you produce is accurate to the best of my ability as a gross income. I don’t care about trying to figure your net, your expenses or anything else. What I was pointing out is that you are not a “breed once a year and didn’t know better” breeder. You are clearly a for profit Kennel and as such you will be reviewed that way. 

Another straw man argument about where the dogs live. I never mentioned it and don’t care. 

So one more time, why if your this upset don’t you stop making excuses and straw man arguments and just follow the rules of the program you chose to participate in? 

Gosh, I am just exhausted by the evasion of that simple question. *sigh*


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

LJack said:


> Lori *sigh* yet another straw man argument that never touches on the meat nor the intent of my post.
> 
> Are you currently by your own will participating in a program that requires you to do the core 4 tests as laid out by the GRCA? Yes.
> Are you actually doing that? No
> ...


I think the lady doth protest too much. She quickly made it to my do not buy from, do not refer to list for consideration. If she can't even give straight answers to her peers, I would be suspect the tales she spins to her puppy buyers.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

1. Majority of people using OFA can get a rough estimate of how those hips will come back which is pretty close to the final results. Likewise same deal with elbows. 

You have people out there who talk a lot, but read between the lines and you will find that their dogs FAILED hips OR/AND elbows and they are attempting to rationalize decisions to keep those dogs in their breeding programs.

2. Majority of people using PH are either trying to cover up FAILED hips, or they intend to breed the dogs PRIOR to 24 months. It costs a lot of money to keep a dog in your program for 24 months (and additional months since nature doesn't exactly arrange seasons according to birth dates) prior to you starting to make money off that dog. At least that seems to be the mentality of people rushing to breed dogs on the first or second season. 

3. I have a friend who purchased 2 puppies from UK. I don't remember the specifics, beyond the fact that they did come from the UK (not russia or slovakia). Both dogs failed elbows and could not be bred. This friend does very high level obedience and it was heartbreaking to retire these dogs, but she primarily keeps dogs who she gets play with and use in her breeding program. Because of this friend, I've heard things about dogs over in Europe being bred with grade 1 elbow dysplasia. So to me this ADDS more urgency as far as people getting those elbows checked and cleared prior to breeding. And using other standards besides OFA again invites the appearance of SHOPPING FAILED ELBOWS around in order to be able to show stuff to questioning puppy buyers. 

Again, if you are a puppy buyer, you should have ZERO TOLERANCE for breeders cutting corners, breeding well prior to 24 months, breeding dogs with FAILED hips or elbows, and be watchful and avoid breeders who demonstrate dishonesty in any way - particularly where it concerns health, breed standards, and purpose of the dogs they breed.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

LJack said:


> Lori *sigh* yet another straw man argument that never touches on the meat nor the intent of my post.
> 
> Are you currently by your own will participating in a program that requires you to do the core 4 tests as laid out by the GRCA? Yes.
> Are you actually doing that? No
> ...


I will put my Pennhip on the OFA website for you to see. If that is excepted than that should be good for you all. Also i know you are aware Pennhip only give you one look that i am aware of. If you fail Pennhip you fail they don't change results. You don't get a second shot. Pennhip is not like OFA you can send in multiple films from different vets and get different readings. As everyone knows.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Lori, the more you write the more you dig the whole deeper for yourself. If you're going to claim Bred by Heart or that you do clearances as recommended by the GRCA, then just do it...publicly verifiable clearances w/ hips/elbows accomplished at or after the age of 2; cardiologist cleared heart & annual eye exams by an ophthalmologist.

As for the use of "guardian" homes, is your name listed on the contract as the breeder? What training/experience do these guardian homes have in whelping litters? How are you evaluating the puppies so that they're best matched to the right homes or even if the bitch should be bred?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

nolefan said:


> Here is what is written on the very first page of the paper you attached:
> 
> _*Warning: The results of this survey and particularly the breed-specific analyses
> should be interpreted with caution. The overall response rate was
> ...


She doesn't call it a reliable survey. She calls it a STUDY.... 
it's not reliable in the least. It's just anecdotal, done by memory, on dogs who died sometime in the past. It is not a survey _anyone_ should use as evidence of _anything_. Yet it is being touted as a reason to buy her product.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> This is a perfect example why i don't believe in your rules. I just had two sisters test in OFA and PennHip. The one gets a .38/ .47 hips the other gets a .42/.48 with Pennhip. ....The OFA gives one sister good hips the other sister hip dysplasia. These aren't even in the same ballpark of each other. I proceed to send them the Pennhip results and explain there must have been a mistake to OFA. ... I am told I have to pay and go get more films done because there may have been a mistake with that reading. It amazes me that Pennhip received the same films and they were able to interpreted them correctly.


How do you know PH interpreted them correctly?
Unless you submitted the exact same films, it is irrelevant that they are sisters or what their PH scores are. What is relevant is that OFA graded them as they saw them. You should be able to tell yourself in a ballpark way how they are going to come back when you do the films. 

Of course your specialist who charged you $1k each thinks OFA is wrong. The positioning for the OFA view could not be wrong, could it? Of course not.
Here's the thing- you can love PH or you can love OFA- it doesn't matter in the least. What DOES matter is that you do the views and have them graded after the dog is 24 months old AND have them in a publicly viewable database that you yourself cannot input to. So k9data doesn't count- only OFA does for the database... that's PH's problem and if they would create a database the public could view, all would be well w PH. You are wrong about PH results just now being able to list on OFA- that has been available for a fee as long as I can remember. I'm old. 

"I get a pay check from the dog. The Guardian doing the work get's paid. So please don't give the public the wrong idea that the amount of money said in your posts comes to me. That is totally untrue. " and " Every litter born and the guardians pay a small portion of that website." 

So- what does that make you- a broker? Do you tell your puppy buyers that you are a broker, and that you don't even know the puppies? Why should the puppy people that you call guardians give you any part of the money? What did you do to deserve it? They are doing the work, you say so. All you are doing is brokering a litter. Or ten. Whatever it is, it IS a business for you, and it should be run according to best practices for the industry as well as completely transparently. It is currently NOT being run with full transparency, or by the rules of the AKC program you are a part of (Breeder with Heart?) that doesn't require competition or titling, just the core 4 and abiding by the CoE of your breed club. And you aren't even doing that completely. You cannot win this argument because you are in the wrong. Until you get in the right, we will point it out to every puppy person that comes asking. Because those are the people who do not know better- and you are not going to give them a product they should be able to trust is what they read on your site.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

double posted...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> I will put my Pennhip on the OFA website for you to see. If that is excepted than that should be good for you all. Also i know you are aware Pennhip only give you one look that i am aware of. If you fail Pennhip you fail they don't change results. You don't get a second shot. Pennhip is not like OFA you can send in multiple films from different vets and get different readings. As everyone knows.


you know the reason for this, right?
PH requires it's practitioners to use tools that they were trained to properly use by U Penn. 
Every little part of it is determined on the front end, and all dogs must be done exactly the same way. It's a mathematical thing. 

OFA takes films from any veterinarian. I'm not sure a vet even has to do them. OFA is more a phenotype thing as presented by the radiograph submitted. Not every vet is good at OFA positioning, so to account for that, one CAN take one's dog to another vet and get another person's skill into play. Of course, it is pretty easy to tell who has done this hoping for a better score unless they do it the same month, because the dates won't match between hips and elbows. 

OFA doesn't give 2nd chances or 4th chances or 100th chances because of their end of things- it's because of the skill at positioning making a difference. When I see a dog's radiographs, I am no different from other breeders who educate themselves, we are probably 90% on the money with what comes back as the final rating. I would only redo a radiograph myself if I could see a reason the film wasn't positioned properly. Like Megora, I don't believe in shopping schemes to try for a pass- it's wrong for the breed and is dishonest. And people who do PH on one bitch 3 months after her elbows on OFA, and OFA on most of their dogs, those folks are trying for a number puppy people cannot read in plain english- dysplastic.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Megora said:


> 1. Majority of people using OFA can get a rough estimate of how those hips will come back which is pretty close to the final results. Likewise same deal with elbows.
> 
> You have people out there who talk a lot, but read between the lines and you will find that their dogs FAILED hips OR/AND elbows and they are attempting to rationalize decisions to keep those dogs in their breeding programs.
> 
> ...


People now can submit there Pennhip to OFA. So there isn't a question that it is done. I agree whole heartedly the female shouldn't be bred before two years old. The extra weight ruins the hips. One of the reasons i went to micro chipping the new generation and having all there clearances that way. Was because i have seen so many people using the OFA either use the same female at different vets with different names to get all excellent on there dogs. The other thing I have seen breeders taking the same dog to different vets under the same name and keep repeating X-rays to get the best reading. So don't think that the OFA is safe just because you see that dog record as excellent hip unless you have a microchip number you don't know that it is actually that dog. I have learned that along the way. People who use the OFA hips and elbows have learned ways around it. That stuff is done all the time with OFA. I prefer you get one shot at it like Pennhip and you fail, you fail. I chose to have one shot at it and except those results good or bad. I also strongly believe after seeing things done from show people that the OFA should require every dog be microchipped to post results. I have seen way to much over the last few years from breeders. 


As far as over seas dogs. I have learned the hard way. You have to be really careful. I have gotten dogs in with Hips dysplasia, Shallow actebullums, Grade 3 Elbows, OA all this when they are 1 year of age. I test them within two weeks of getting them. I turn them around and send them back. I have had dogs from Russia, Serbia, Netherlands, Ukraine and Spain. I don't believe it is a specific country, it is just that breeder. 

I can also answer why the Europeans get Grade 1 a lot on elbows. Please study the body build of the European Golden next to the American. Look at the way the chest is bred. If you want go on my website and look at the European and American Champions there. I used those on purpose so that I can explain some of the differences and problems. The forefront of the dog or chest area is much larger than the American. This cause added weight on the elbows. As you know some breeds alone due to the weight distribution will have a grade 1 in the elbow and that is normal. As you may also know when we turn 20 years old as humans, we also have wear on our joints. With the chest area larger on the European more weight on the Elbows, hence more wear and tear on the joint from the weight. This is the reason you are seeing the Grade one in Elbows more in Europeans than in Americans. So you are correct. That is a true statement. Many have a different body build. However that doesn't mean the dog has any symptoms this can just be normal due to the added weight from the chest and body style. Personally i try not to place a larger chested male with a larger chest female. This can worsen the problem. 


Are you aware that some countries don't even exclude cataracts as a problem. This is due to they haven't found the genetic marker yet. I have actually called several genetic labs to confirm what i heard. Cataracts can come from lack of Vitamin C, Trauma, fluke at birth and they don't know if they are recessive or dominant, some they do believe are genetic. It is defiantly a country to country choice. I tend to study many countries beliefs. 

So if anybody tells a buyer that there aren't problems with the Europeans you can tell them there are definitely problems. The American and the European both have problems. I can attest to that. There are good points to both also. The main thing i like about the European is that i believe they live longer and have less cancer. In my area i see so many American Goldens dieing at 7-9 years old and I don't see that in the Europeans.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> you know the reason for this, right?
> PH requires it's practitioners to use tools that they were trained to properly use by U Penn.
> Every little part of it is determined on the front end, and all dogs must be done exactly the same way. It's a mathematical thing.
> 
> ...


Yes i am aware it is the skill of the person taking the film for OFA. I am a X-ray tech, Cat scan tech and ultrasound tech for a hospital. So I am completely aware since i take 
X-rays. There is no way you could walk into a hospital and just have some assistant take your films. They aren't trained and certified. 
Why is just anybody taking OFA films. Why is Pennhip requiring special training to prevent these problems. That is something i don't understand. Why aren't they requiring the OFA films to be taken by qualified people. Then the misread films would be much less. It would eliminate a whole lot of problems and resubmissions.


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## Sandy22 (Mar 12, 2016)

Wow, this is insane. I'm not a breeder, and have no reason to judge you Lori, other than as a person who happens to adore my pet golden retriever, and want what is best for the breed. Even though my boy is just a pet, (and I take issue with those who say just a pet, because really, isn't that the most important job a dog can have?), I made sure that I bought him from a breeder that did all of the core testing required by the GRCA. Why? Because I want him to live a happy healthy life and be with my family as long as possible.

Honestly, when I see these repeated posts of yours going on and on yet addressing nothing, all I know is that i would never purchase a puppy from you, or recommend you to anyone else. And again, I'm just pet person with no axe to grind.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lori - I watched a youtube video of somebody grooming a golden for show over there in Europe. The front was sculpted to both emphasize and "create" more front. 

I do not believe there is any excuse for breeding dogs who FAILED elbows. That is utter crap to me. 

There's lots of goldens either way who are deep chested. They aren't great jumpers for that reason but they do not typically across the board FAIL ELBOWS!!!! My boy who is almost 11, failed hips. But his elbows which were not sent to OFA but looked at were absolutely gorgeous. He IS deep chested but legs of steel under him. Even now in old age - you can feel his legs and they are very strong, big boned, and free of any swelling. It's something I marvel about all the time because the boy before him had bad elbows (he was born prior to the current rule re checking elbows). 

With bad elbows, even with grade 1 - people who do NOTHING with the dogs don't get this... it's heartbreaking. Both for your program because you are reinforcing that inheritance in what you breed, but also it's the end of the road for a dog that in every other way is dynamic in sports.

When you work with a dog in obedience or agility and these dogs are jumping full height - they are landing on that front. Elbow dysplasia ends careers for that reason. And even if dogs do go on to have careers post surgery, they are abbreviated and the dogs are in a lot of pain from exasperated arthritis down the road. 

Elbow dysplasia is not something you can play games with. Not if you have any conscience. 

Sorry... I'm not looking at your website. 

I've seen enough people comparing European and American champions and it's ridiculous the utter fiction that's posted sometimes by people who have never shown dogs and are literally looking for sales pitches. 

Also, stuff about cataracts - you are talking to the wrong person. I believe cataracts are a big NO NO for breeding. 

Also - PH is not pass or fail. OFA is. 

OFA is one of the views that are done for PH. You are already paying for the xrays. So since you are not breeding dogs prior to 24 months (I assume you also mean the studs as well, and not using the boys prior to them having FULL CLEARANCES at 24 months)..... might as well do all that after 24 months, do elbows, and send hips/elbows to OFA for grading and send your PH results in to be posted publicly on OFA. 

Do full clearances. Don't cut corners. 

Even if you have 10 million breeding dogs spread out in 10 million homes to avoid being designated as a puppy mill because all those dogs are bred all the time.... 

That's another headache for another day. You'll avoid having to explain why you are breeding dogs who do NOT HAVE FULL CLEARANCES. 

There are breeders out there who do all of the above (both PH and OFA's piled up after 24 months prior to breeding) and among else, for me what it shows is they are not doing PH just to cut corners. They are literally  (not just claiming) using PH as a tool to improve their understanding of what they are breeding and producing.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> People now can submit there Pennhip to OFA. So there isn't a question that it is done. I agree whole heartedly the female shouldn't be bred before two years old. The extra weight ruins the hips. One of the reasons i went to micro chipping the new generation and having all there clearances that way. Was because i have seen so many people using the OFA either use the same female at different vets with different names to get all excellent on there dogs. The other thing I have seen breeders taking the same dog to different vets under the same name and keep repeating X-rays to get the best reading. So don't think that the OFA is safe just because you see that dog record as excellent hip unless you have a microchip number you don't know that it is actually that dog. I have learned that along the way. People who use the OFA hips and elbows have learned ways around it. That stuff is done all the time with OFA. I prefer you get one shot at it like Pennhip and you fail, you fail. I chose to have one shot at it and except those results good or bad. I also strongly believe after seeing things done from show people that the OFA should require every dog be microchipped to post results. I have seen way to much over the last few years from breeders.


You do realize that nearly all reputable breeders have been getting “VPI” health certifications for generations now right? 
Whether it is the currently popular microchips or the older but still sometimes used registration number tattoo, this has been a common practice for a loooong time and is require to earn CHIC certification. It is not new nor uncommon amongst reputable breeders to have VPI certifications and indeed CHIC certification is also common to responsible breeders. If the breeders you are familiar with are this corrupt, you really need to get out of your current peer group. 

PennHIP does not pass or fail any dog. The report for the best and worst hips are the same. The other issue is that PennHIP refuses to make the breed average publicly available on an annual basis so it is hard to tell if dogs are below breed average and *possibly* able to be responsibly used in a breeding program. As far as I can tell the Golden breed average has been .55 for years. Unlike OFA which issues a certificate and OFA number for passing results and failure letter an no OFA number for failing results. 

You are also incorrect that PennHIP is one and done. In fact PennHIP clearly states the recommendation that multiple PennHIP tests should be done on an individual dog.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> I can also answer why the Europeans get Grade 1 a lot on elbows. Please study the body build of the European Golden next to the American. Look at the way the chest is bred. If you want go on my website and look at the European and American Champions there. I used those on purpose so that I can explain some of the differences and problems. The forefront of the dog or chest area is much larger than the American. This cause added weight on the elbows. As you know some breeds alone due to the weight distribution will have a grade 1 in the elbow and that is normal. As you may also know when we turn 20 years old as humans, we also have wear on our joints. With the chest area larger on the European more weight on the Elbows, hence more wear and tear on the joint from the weight. This is the reason you are seeing the Grade one in Elbows more in Europeans than in Americans. So you are correct. That is a true statement. Many have a different body build. However that doesn't mean the dog has any symptoms this can just be normal due to the added weight from the chest and body style. Personally i try not to place a larger chested male with a larger chest female. This can worsen the problem.


So incredibly wrong. Again, these are the statements of someone who can’t see structure through the differing grooming and presentation practices. While I would say in general fronts on European bred dogs are better, especially shoulder lay back and return of upper arm, they are not “much larger”. 

Grooming for the European ring includes an overzealous striping of coat through the throat and neck that transitions to a sculpted trim of the chest to emphasize the chest. On the contrast, American rings currently favor grooming the throat and neck relatively little so hair is covering that area and the transition from neck to chest is not made visible through grooming. 

Below are two European bred boys. One on the bottom is showing in Europe and the other on the top presented North American style. You may be able to better see that grooming is accounting for the different look since these boys a full litter siblings. The are built as you would expect for full brothers, fairly similarly but the presentation style is different.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> The main thing i like about the European is that i believe they live longer and have less cancer. In my area i see so many American Goldens dieing at 7-9 years old and I don't see that in the Europeans.


It is one thing to have a personal belief. It is quite another to misrepresent two unlinked small voluntary survey that were never intended to be comparative to mislead buyers.

Cancer is know to have environmental causes and triggers. So, how does any rational person get to all dogs in Europe have the same cancer risk as a tiny pool of dogs (less than 1800) in the U.K. some 10-11 years ago? Is the environment of the U.K. the same as France or Russia or Ukraine? How about the fact that Americans generally spay and neuter as part pet ownership when in the U.K. they don’t? Do you think missing part of the endocrine system might be factor? 

Taking these two surveys to support a personal belief with currently no documented proof is a terrible betrayal of a buyer’s trust. I mean, I could do the same thing in reverse and scare the bujezzus out of buyers by stating European dogs are 300% more likely to die of life threatening neurological disorders. But, that is neither fair nor accurate. 

You have anecdotal evidence, so do I. The first dog in the Morris Foundation Study to die of Cancer was young and of Russian pedigree. Pedigree: Guardian of Love for a Ural Dream
In fact if you really use K9Data, you will find many European bred dogs dying of cancer. Add to that, there seems a different cultural attitude in Europe about a dog’s death. It seems to be held as a more personal thing than here. After building trusting relationships, you can find out where the cancer is in pedigrees many assume as cancer free because it is not aired publicly. 

Perhaps someday there will be enough of a controlled study to compare Cancer rates with in families of dogs, but that is not what we have today. 

By the way, I have gone to Europe to import directly and have done several blended pedigree breedings so, I am not biased against the dogs, just against inaccurate information being used to play on buyer’s cancer fears.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

LJack said:


> You do realize that nearly all reputable breeders have been getting “VPI” health certifications for generations now right?
> Whether it is the currently popular microchips or the older but still sometimes used registration number tattoo, this has been a common practice for a loooong time and is require to earn CHIC certification. It is not new nor uncommon amongst reputable breeders to have VPI certifications and indeed CHIC certification is also common to responsible breeders. If the breeders you are familiar with are this corrupt, you really need to get out of your current peer group.
> 
> PennHIP does not pass or fail any dog. The report for the best and worst hips are the same. The other issue is that PennHIP refuses to make the breed average publicly available on an annual basis so it is hard to tell if dogs are below breed average and *possibly* able to be responsibly used in a breeding program. As far as I can tell the Golden breed average has been .55 for years. Unlike OFA which issues a certificate and OFA number for passing results and failure letter an no OFA number for failing results.
> ...


Didn't realize that i will follow up with PennHip


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

LJack said:


> You do realize that nearly all reputable breeders have been getting “VPI” health certifications for generations now right?
> Whether it is the currently popular microchips or the older but still sometimes used registration number tattoo, this has been a common practice for a loooong time and is require to earn CHIC certification. It is not new nor uncommon amongst reputable breeders to have VPI certifications and indeed CHIC certification is also common to responsible breeders. If the breeders you are familiar with are this corrupt, you really need to get out of your current peer group.
> 
> PennHIP does not pass or fail any dog. The report for the best and worst hips are the same. The other issue is that PennHIP refuses to make the breed average publicly available on an annual basis so it is hard to tell if dogs are below breed average and *possibly* able to be responsibly used in a breeding program. As far as I can tell the Golden breed average has been .55 for years. Unlike OFA which issues a certificate and OFA number for passing results and failure letter an no OFA number for failing results.
> ...


I will follow up with them i did't know that. Thank you. I feel if a dog falls to low on the spectrum it automatically fails to me.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Megora said:


> Lori - I watched a youtube video of somebody grooming a golden for show over there in Europe. The front was sculpted to both emphasize and "create" more front.
> 
> I do not believe there is any excuse for breeding dogs who FAILED elbows. That is utter crap to me.
> 
> ...


Elbows, There is no difference on a X-ray for normal wear and tear to real dysplasia as you know when they call Grade 1 on the X-ray. A human that is 350 lbs x-rayed at 20 years will have more wear and tear on a knee than a person that is 100 lbs x-rayed at 20 years old. I really do see this all the time working at the hospital. There isn't a weight limit on the Europeans as there is on the Americans. 

Many people are trying to goto CT when you have a grade 1 in the elbows to see if it actually dysplasia or not. That is also why OFA is considering switching to a 3 view instead of two views of the elbows they are currently using. Weight and build really do play in Elbow dysplasia as well as human knee problems as well.

The dogs had there prelims from ofa on the website they have always been there. I did submit them to OFA. No one is trying to breed dogs with elbow problems. The only one who has showed anything is a dog that had a trauma and we know it was an injury from Agility. The dog was seen by an orthopedic. You all act like the films haven't ever been submitted to OFA. Everyone keeps saying that and the results are on the website. The dogs were submitted when they did the Penhipp. Everyone seems to keep saying they haven't.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

OFA does not use a 2 view now. I dk where the info is from that you're coming up with. Where do you get this info, on what OFA is considering? https://www.ofa.org/diseases/elbow-dysplasia One is always welcome to include a second view, as well as a third- those have been the submission rules for at least 10 years. OFA does not accept CT. 
Normal wear and tear is not a grade one. Grade one is dysplasia. When you stop breeding Grade one elbows, you will have stopped breeding dysplastic dogs. I cannot believe you are defending this practice.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm not going to join this debate but will give you a perspective from a buyer.
If you post on your website that you support the AKC Coe and you don't.... I don't want to hear a 20 page monolog to explain why. 
It's simple, if you claim to do something do it. If you feel you have a better way, remove the hype. Because if you are not going to follow the rules you proclaim to follow, that's all it is hype.
As a buyer, I want to trust that my breeder is doing exactly what is posted on their site. 
Like I said, this is from a buyers position. If I can't trust you to do what you say you do, what else are you lying about? I would continue my search elsewhere.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

puddles everywhere said:


> I'm not going to join this debate but will give you a perspective from a buyer.
> If you post on your website that you support the AKC Coe and you don't.... I don't want to hear a 20 page monolog to explain why.
> It's simple, if you claim to do something do it. If you feel you have a better way, remove the hype. Because if you are not going to follow the rules you proclaim to follow, that's all it is hype.
> As a buyer, I want to trust that my breeder is doing exactly what is posted on their site.
> Like I said, this is from a buyers position. If I can't trust you to do what you say you do, what else are you lying about? I would continue my search elsewhere.


That is fine how you feel. However if I was the breeder everyone feels i am. I bred most of the moms and there children are passing the OFA. Some are grandchildren passing as well the OFA. Since clearances are on the parents page of each one. They have all had looks in one country or another. Some have had looks in both. I also haven't had any reports of offspring dieing from cancer as of yet young. It is self evident with there offspring passing the OFA that this would not happen if in fact I was that breeder they want to make me out to be. The young dogs i have bred wouldn't be making there health clearance's at all if the case was I wasn't checking the parents. In the next year most of the older moms i have bred will be retired and the young ones i bred will be beginning.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> OFA does not use a 2 view now. I dk where the info is from that you're coming up with. Where do you get this info, on what OFA is considering? https://www.ofa.org/diseases/elbow-dysplasia One is always welcome to include a second view, as well as a third- those have been the submission rules for at least 10 years. OFA does not accept CT.
> Normal wear and tear is not a grade one. Grade one is dysplasia. When you stop breeding Grade one elbows, you will have stopped breeding dysplastic dogs. I cannot believe you are defending this practice.


My dogs don't have dysplasia in the elbows and neither do there offspring coming out or some of there granddaughters being checked. I know because they did have checks with OFA. 



I called and ask the OFA questions to try to understand there practice. When i don't understand something i call the source. I feel better talking directly to them to understand them.

Yes I understand that OFA doesn't except CT. They explained although you can see inside the joint better. The protocols are to variable and slice thickness not standard. That is what they told me is the reason. Unless a certain protocol was designed. 

Normal wear and tear can be called dysplastic on both humans and dogs. That is why we do CT or MRI on humans and we have protocols for people. The 3 dimensional image comes out clearer when obtained correctly. That is why i asked the OFA why they don't except CT on dogs. Since i do X-rays and Ct on humans. I couldn't figure out why we do different in dogs. 

I don't agree at all in the practice of breeding dysplastic dogs. However i also know trauma, weight and body build will cause the same effect on a X-ray. There are actually better ways to see the joint then X-ray, my question to the OFA and is why we didn't practice them with Animals and just use on humans.

If you think about the dogs you have bred they could be perfect dogs and have perfect lines. The buyer could put to much weight on the joints. The additional 40lbs on the dog will cause dysplastic hips and knees. This isn't from your breeding this is from the additional weight on the dog. That isn't a genetic type of dysplastic hips and knees it is the way the dog was raised. There is also the trauma type and the way the body is built on the dog. I just wanted to know why the OFA practices the way they do when there are better ways and clearer.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> "I get a pay check from the dog. The Guardian doing the work get's paid. So please don't give the public the wrong idea that the amount of money said in your posts comes to me. That is totally untrue. " and " Every litter born and the guardians pay a small portion of that website."
> 
> So- what does that make you- a broker? Do you tell your puppy buyers that you are a broker, and that you don't even know the puppies? Why should the puppy people that you call guardians give you any part of the money? What did you do to deserve it? They are doing the work, you say so. All you are doing is brokering a litter. Or ten. Whatever it is, it IS a business for you, and it should be run according to best practices for the industry as well as completely transparently. It is currently NOT being run with full transparency, or by the rules of the AKC program you are a part of (Breeder with Heart?) that doesn't require competition or titling, just the core 4 and abiding by the CoE of your breed club. And you aren't even doing that completely.


From what I gather, Promise Lands own the dogs on all the paperwork. When the dog goes into heat, it's bred in Promise Lands possession and then returned to the guardian home for the duration of the pregnancy. 

From the website: "We are always on the lookout for those pups which meet the mark to be part of our breeding program. These great dogs join our guardian families at a great price (no cost). The dog becomes a loving part of your family and Promise Land Goldens maintains exclusive rights for breeding with unlimited access. Once a dog is retired from the guardian program paperwork will be provided transferring ownership from Promise Land Goldens to the Guardian family."
​
"​​How long is our Pet with you when you breed?

​1. The Guardian family must notify us immediately as soon as they are aware the female dog is in heat. We will work to coordinate for her to be picked up by about day 5 - 7 of the heat cycle. It is around this point that she will be taken to a fertility vet to get a full examination and her initial progesterone level testing. With our fertility vet's help we decide wether that female is good for breeding with that particular cycle. After breeding a few times we do give mothers a break. When breeding occurs depending on distance and timing we find that sometimes it is best for us to keep the female a few days. It is not unusual for us to have her 2 or 3 visits to the fertility vet over this 4 or 5 day period.

​2. Male dogs may be in our home about 3-4 days for a mating.

​The Whelping process is worked out with Guardians on an individual family basis."

"How many litters do you usually breed before retiring the dog?

This is difficult to say. If a female’s uterus prolapses it is not good to breed any longer and that female is retired. If we decide that a mom has an inordinate amount of difficulty with her labor we may decide to retire her. So the number of litters depends on each individual case. The average female is about 5 litters."



Megora said:


> So since you are not breeding dogs prior to 24 months (I assume you also mean the studs as well, and not using the boys prior to them having FULL CLEARANCES at 24 months)...


According to her website: "What age do you start breeding the dog?

​1. Males are not breed until they are over 12 months old.

2. We will usually breed females on their second to third heat cycle, which usually after 24 months typically."

"What if I have a male guardian dog?

​Male guardian dogs are usually used for breeding after 12-18 months."


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> OFA does not use a 2 view now. I dk where the info is from that you're coming up with. Where do you get this info, on what OFA is considering? https://www.ofa.org/diseases/elbow-dysplasia One is always welcome to include a second view, as well as a third- those have been the submission rules for at least 10 years. OFA does not accept CT.
> Normal wear and tear is not a grade one. Grade one is dysplasia. When you stop breeding Grade one elbows, you will have stopped breeding dysplastic dogs. I cannot believe you are defending this practice.


 Elbow dysplasia is a horrible, painful condition. Anyone who would breed dogs knowing there was the remotest possibility that it could be passed on is also horrible. Not only for the pain it causes the poor dog, but for the broken heart it causes the family. For $2500 those puppies should have parents first bred over the age of two with every health clearance available. Sad...sad...sad to defend breeding underage dogs without all of their clearances. Purely breeding for $$ and not for the improvement of the breed.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Megora said:


> 2. Majority of people using PH are either trying to cover up FAILED hips, or they intend to breed the dogs PRIOR to 24 months. It costs a lot of money to keep a dog in your program for 24 months (and additional months since nature doesn't exactly arrange seasons according to birth dates) prior to you starting to make money off that dog. At least that seems to be the mentality of people rushing to breed dogs on the first or second season.


Megan that would be incorrect from my 10 min if doing research on pennhip verus OFA it would seem OFA is actually more inaccurate when it comes to telling the future outcome of the hips. I also agree that pennhip not having a public database is a huge negative for it.

http://www.espn.com/outdoors/huntin...ter_ben&page=sd_col_Character_breeding_PH-OFA

https://m.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvett...-ofa-better-medicine-vs-better-marketing-6680

http://www.aaha.org/blog/NewStat/post/2010/11/15/925638/Study-compares-PennHIP-OFA.aspx


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nate83 said:


> Megan that would be incorrect from my 10 min if doing research on pennhip verus OFA it would seem OFA is actually more inaccurate when it comes to telling the future outcome of the hips. I also agree that pennhip not having a public database is a huge negative for it.


Name's Kate. 

I'm basing my information on people doing PH on pups, well prior to 12 months. And they never check the hips again while breeding those dogs as soon as possible vs waiting until the dogs are 24 months and following the clearance recommendations at that time. 

As long as people are using PH to improve what they breed while doing OFA at 24 months and not breeding prior to 24 months - they are doing what they claim they are doing.

Majority of other people have no issue with OFA's - and many people firmly believe in the results. I know of obedience and agility breeders who go the extra mile on doing both PH and OFA and they typically produce excellent graded hips. 

But even other breeders who only do OFA's - their dogs with fair graded hips have produced a LOT of excellent graded hips, primarily based on the breeding decisions that those breeders have made - not just based on GRADES, but looking at the hips and elbows and knowing what they breed.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Auto correct will be the death of me, was suppose to say meg. O well Kate it is. I agree breeding should not be done to early.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Nate83 said:


> Megan that would be incorrect from my 10 min if doing research on pennhip verus OFA it would seem OFA is actually more inaccurate when it comes to telling the future outcome of the hips. I also agree that pennhip not having a public database is a huge negative for it.


The piece that's not covered by the articles you posted Nate is that people DO try to cover up failures by doing PHs- PH does not pass or fail anything, and there's no way to verify what you are told, either. So when you fail OFAs, and then PH an animal, and get DI numbers,that looks like (to the average puppy person) you have done the clearance. The assumption is that it is passing. It might be awful! Used to, people who failed OFA elbows would send them to OVC for a clearance. And then Kate's statement about doing PH young-under 24 months- is very true. And many people never think about them again, and buyers don't realize they can be done as young as 16 weeks...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Other thing.... and I'm sure somebody already said as much already regarding CT scans and I just glazed eye read past it, but I read somewhere (Retriever forum, I think) that the primary reason why OFA is not accepting CT Scans in order to reverse decisions regarding elbows is because there have been studies regarding the use of CT scans in connection with surgeries on elbows. And they found that the elbows might look "normal" on a CT scan, but dysplasia or DJD conditions was found during the surgery. 

Elsewhere, I read an article that CT scans are ideal for re-evaluating certain types of elbow dysplasia, but not all. Likewise, certain types of elbow dysplasia are generally easily diagnosed just from regular xrays. 

The criticisms of OFA regarding elbows and requests for CT scans arise from people who feel that the OFA defined trademarks of Grade 1 elbow dysplasia are actually more just the structure of the bones and not actually elbow dysplasia. 

Likewise, there are others who I swear are still stuck in the 90's and refuse to believe that even Grade II or Grade III elbow dysplasia are truly hereditary conditions. They have a very broad definition of reasonable injuries. This includes how the puppies were situated in the whelping area at the breeder's. This includes owners permitting the dogs to run up hills or climb up and down stairs. 

My gut feeling is continuing to use the tools we have and encouraging everyone to use them while individually going the extra mile if they DO have failed elbows and intend to keep those dogs either in their program or merely want more information for their program - we may gain better understanding of elbow dysplasia and all the grades. And those cases of elbow dysplasia, I think should be posted publicly if you are going to breed the dogs. It should be part of the discussion with puppy buyers. This includes posting publicly the results of CT scans that you have done. 

If your breeding program includes more than very rare cases of failed elbows and these are shared openly and publicly, I think it shows whether somebody is attempting to ignore an obvious issue in their program? And it may force them to reevaluate. 

^^^^ The above is me attempting to be fair - even with a subject that I feel very strongly about based on me having a very beloved dog go through this condition. 

There are a number of breeders out there who are working overtime to figure out how to use CT scans with failed elbows in their breeding programs. They are DOING the CT scans, not just using them as an excuse for why they are using dogs with failed elbows in their programs. 

Quite honestly, I think that if they keep track of those where they have to go that extra step to rule out elbow dysplasia - it might help show patterns in what they breed, if any exist. IE, if there's a pattern, I think it shows they have a problem. While using OFA as the "baseline" and to rule out the need for unnecessary CT scans. Just saying. 

Get those elbows checked. 

Get the results posted publicly. 

If you are going to hang your hat on CT scans - do them. And post results publicly in such a way that cannot be forged. Have no idea how that's possible since it's easy to photoshop anything, but just saying. 

Rather than take on big risks, including increasing likelihood of elbow dysplasia in what you breed (Grade 1 increases percentage of elbow dysplasia, per OFA).... you are better off just removing dogs from your program who FAILED elbows.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> Nate83 said:
> 
> 
> > Megan that would be incorrect from my 10 min if doing research on pennhip verus OFA it would seem OFA is actually more inaccurate when it comes to telling the future outcome of the hips. I also agree that pennhip not having a public database is a huge negative for it.
> ...


 breeding to early is wrong not going to disagree with that, also if people are trying to cheat the system that is wrong as well. I think using PH in conjunction with OFA would be best.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

However I do have questions on why we wait for 24 months if all growth plates are closed by 18 months?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Nate83 said:


> However I do have questions on why we wait for 24 months if all growth plates are closed by 18 months?


Probably best average is 24 months for large breed dogs. 

I've heard of golden people doing xrays at 2 years and they aren't closed yet.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

All growth plates don't close on the same schedule- different breeds different ages, different gender different ages. It does on average happen at 18 months but all are closed by 24 months.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> My dogs don't have dysplasia in the elbows and neither do there offspring coming out or some of there granddaughters being checked. I know because they did have checks with OFA.





Lori Froderman said:


> I don't agree at all in the practice of breeding dysplastic dogs.


And yet again, your behavior exhibited in your actions clearly shows that you do have a dog with dysplasia and do breed dysplastic dogs. Every testing organization in the world classifies grade 1 as dysplasia. Remember, actions speak louder than words. 

All anyone here wants you to do is follow the health testing standards you agreed to when you joined the voluntary Bred with H.E.A.R.T. program. That’s it. No excuses. No misdirection. No “I choose to follow another country’s practices”. Just you keeping your word and upholding agreements you make to truly put health testing first over convenience or profit.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

LJack said:


> Lori Froderman said:
> 
> 
> > My dogs don't have dysplasia in the elbows and neither do there offspring coming out or some of there granddaughters being checked. I know because they did have checks with OFA.
> ...


Grade I Elbow Dysplasia:*Minimal bone change along anconeal process of ulna (less than 2mm).
Grade II Elbow Dysplasia:*Additional bone proliferation along anconeal process (2-5 mm) and subchondral bone changes (trochlear notch sclerosis).
Grade III Elbow Dysplasia:*Well developed degenerative joint disease with bone proliferation along anconeal process being greater than 5 mm

https://www.ofa.org/diseases/elbow-dysplasia/elbow-faqs

https://www.ofa.org/diseases/elbow-dysplasia


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Nate83 said:


> Grade I Elbow Dysplasia:*Minimal bone change along anconeal process of ulna (less than 2mm).
> Grade II Elbow Dysplasia:*Additional bone proliferation along anconeal process (2-5 mm) and subchondral bone changes (trochlear notch sclerosis).
> Grade III Elbow Dysplasia:*Well developed degenerative joint disease with bone proliferation along anconeal process being greater than 5 mm
> 
> ...


Let me point out Elbow Dysplasia normal occurs between 4-10 months of age due to the way the dog grows.

Let me also point out that Dysplasia is cause by Over Exercise, Over Weight dogs and Trauma it is not a only Genetic. 

So any puppy any breeder sells can get Elbow Dysplasia or even Hip Dysplasia. This may have nothing to do with the parents and breeding. I believe you know this. 

The dog I disclosed. If you aren't aware of what a Elbows 0/0 means from Europe that means the dog was normal and had no genetic Elbow problems. The dog had a trauma. Which is disclosed therefore after following the dog the end result is a Elbow 1. In the time frame we weren't even sure the dog would have lasting effects. This doesn't mean because a parent had a trauma that the offspring will hurt themselves as well. Look at dates on exams and you will see. 

I am not sure you understand that Elbow Dysplasia in not only Genetic. We had one puppy at six months old who showed up limping when there other 2 year Golden slammed into it and it rolled. There general vet told them elbow dysplasia. We all went to the orthopedic. After a CT the of the puppies elbow there was a fracture of the ulnar process that couldn't be seen on the X-ray. It came from trauma. The other elbow was fine. That dog ended up with surgery. It will always have Elbow Dysplasia due to trauma and the way the 2 year old Golden slammed into the 6 month old. So please don't think that any puppy you sell can't have a trauma. 

So no I am not breeding Genetic Elbow problems due to they would show up and have no trauma. There is a difference in Genetic disorder and Trauma related case if you aren't ware. The offsprings that are being currently done would also be showing elbow problems when x-rayed.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Ugghh...the Ethics on display here are just shocking.

Okay you want to claim this Dysplastic dog you are repeatedly breeding is clear of *genetic* elbow Dysplasia? *Show the proof that a DNA based test shows he is clear.* 


The problem is you can’t. There is no DNA test. All we have is a Phenotype test. All it looks at is what the elbow is physically. It is not a genetic test. We all know the test is not perfect but it is the best tool we have now to try to make an informed guess as to what the genes are behind the elbows. 

I am so sad for the puppy buyers you take advantage of. If this is the level of misdirection and misleading statements you are willing to make to educated people who can and do refute misinformation, I shudder to think what you tell your buyers. 

I know it is hard to have a dog fail. I had a lovely all owner handled AKC Champion, BIS winning UKC Champion bitch who was trained for competitive obedience and did visits at a skilled nursing facility. There were so many things she had to offer besides her reproductive organs and color but she also had grade 1 Elbow Dysplasia. It would be easy since she was from generations of cleared elbows to claim injury and breed her, but my ethics would not allow it. Even if I had, I would never try to sugar coat Dysplasia and claim it was not genetic when there is no way currently to prove that.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

LJack said:


> Ugghh...the Ethics on display here are just shocking.
> 
> Okay you want to claim this Dysplastic dog you are repeatedly breeding is clear of *genetic* elbow Dysplasia? *Show the proof that a DNA based test shows he is clear.*
> 
> ...


Just curious but why are you trying to say all Elbow Dysplasia is genetic and nothing else causes and trying to generalize so that every dog you see with a Grade 1 has a genetic abnormality. Why would you put every dog in the same category. Wouldn't that limit the breeding pool for those around us. Would't that eventually cause more inbreeding in the world. Just curious why a trauma should be thrown out. So if your dog did agility and had a trauma even though he passed prior he shouldn't be bred anymore. I don't understand why you would say that is a bad dog. 

I get that a dog who shows Elbows problems with no history and the lines are showing elbow problems in offspring. Yes that dog would be thrown out at once. Even without a genetic test to do. I totally agree. I would consider that dog not a breeding prospect at all. I just can't figure out why you would try to put every dog for any reason in to that category. Just trying to figure that out.

Yes i actually do go over with each buyer about weight of the dog and it's effects on joints. I actually try to teach them how to tell if there dog is over weight. I try to explain over exercise and it's affects on the joints. I try to explain neutering and spaying and the problems seem from doing to early. I also try to explain trauma to each buyer. I don't think there is anything wrong with doing that with a buyer. It is not done for malicious reasons. It is done to try to explain to them how to keep the health of there dog in good standing.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

That is easy to answer. 

The test is Phenotypic. If the dog has Dysplasia it has Dysplasia. There is no differentiation on the report for genetic or trauma because the test is unable to determine. So, yes the dog is Dysplastic and I would not breed it and in fact have not bred it. 

You want to classify as an excuse that this dog does not have genetic Dysplasia. Then the burden to prove that is on you. *Produce the DNA test that he does not have it. *

You want to believe it is trauma so that is what you see. However, OFA can and does passing certifications for dogs with trauma when appropriately documented. So, you might want to pursue that if you really have documentation that trauma alone and not a genetic component is at work here. 

Just because a dog has clear preliminary reports (which I would classify European certifications done at 12 months when the dog is in the US) does not mean it does not have Dysplasia. If you wonder why European dogs show ED more often statistically than dogs in the US, consider testing age as a factor. I have seen many dogs with passing European certifications at 12 months fail US Certifications at 24 months. I personally don’t believe dogs that are Dysplastic at 24 months as being breeding candidates for elbow health. If a young healthy dog goes from normal preliminary reports at 12 months to Dysplastic at 24 months it seems an underlying weakness is more probable than trauma. These are sporting dogs. They should live active, rough and tumble lives while retaining healthy elbows.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> Let me point out Elbow Dysplasia normal occurs between 4-10 months of age due to the way the dog grows.
> 
> Let me also point out that Dysplasia is cause by Over Exercise, Over Weight dogs and Trauma it is not a only Genetic.
> 
> ...


Lori, I keep wanting to believe that you want to learn but you keep saying things that make me believe otherwise. The ulna type of ED is called FCP- fragmented coronoid process. the CP is at the top of the ulna, and is hidden on some radiographs. But FCP is thought to be even more heritable than other kinds of ED- there are three different ED types, and the one folks call a fracture is FCP. It is almost always unilateral. 
Normal trauma- like an adult dog slamming a puppy- is NORMAL to a growing dog. Normal trauma should not cause elbow dysplasia.. if it does, the elbow was inferior to start with. We can always recall a trauma if we want to- but in reality, one should be just as worried about ED due to a trauma as one is due to no recalled trauma.. because trauma is a normal thing for all growing creatures. Kids fall all the time- do they usually have life long handicaps because they fell as a kid? No. Goldens should be able to live a normal rough and tumble life and their owners should not blame dysplasia on not keeping them in a bubble as a puppy...
I would posit that the genetics are the reason the trauma caused the FCP. 
Believe me those of us still entertaining your posts DO understand the genetics of ED- and we understand that you should not breed a dog with ED. Even if you remember a trauma, and want to blame the ED on the trauma, you can never be certain the trauma caused the ED- the dog has elbow dysplasia. That is the only certainty there is. You are breeding elbow dysplasia- there is no genetic marker for ED and for all intents you are breeding a dog who has a genetic weakness in the elbows. Until there is a marker, it is what the phenotype is- which is dysplastic. And you are deceiving the people who buy from you. No other way to put it, telling them a fairytale about how you KNOW it is a trauma induced ED, that's not true. You cannot know that.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> Just curious but why are you trying to say all Elbow Dysplasia is genetic and nothing else causes and trying to generalize so that every dog you see with a Grade 1 has a genetic abnormality. Why would you put every dog in the same category. Wouldn't that limit the breeding pool for those around us. Would't that eventually cause more inbreeding in the world. Just curious why a trauma should be thrown out. So if your dog did agility and had a trauma even though he passed prior he shouldn't be bred anymore. I don't understand why you would say that is a bad dog.
> 
> I get that a dog who shows Elbows problems with no history and the lines are showing elbow problems in offspring. Yes that dog would be thrown out at once. Even without a genetic test to do. I totally agree. I would consider that dog not a breeding prospect at all. I just can't figure out why you would try to put every dog for any reason in to that category. Just trying to figure that out.
> 
> Yes i actually do go over with each buyer about weight of the dog and it's effects on joints. I actually try to teach them how to tell if there dog is over weight. I try to explain over exercise and it's affects on the joints. I try to explain neutering and spaying and the problems seem from doing to early. I also try to explain trauma to each buyer. I don't think there is anything wrong with doing that with a buyer. It is not done for malicious reasons. It is done to try to explain to them how to keep the health of there dog in good standing.


I don't think that is what she said. If the hypothetical agility dog who had an injury after he had an elbow clearance, that dog could be bred. 
A dog such as your dog, though, he did not have clear elbows ever- so yes, he should be tossed. If he were not light in color, he offers nothing to the breed imo - he's not titled and isn't a working dog, so his color is all he has to offer. It is a shame people use him. 
We've all had to throw a dog out- it is how we handle those scenarios that tell our ethics...
my own ED story is my OFA Excellent bitch WITH an elbow clearance- yes- she had all of her clearances- but when I found her transient limp (every time we entered an obedience trial of course) was the result of FCP I spayed and placed her. It's hard to raise a bitch to 3 YO and then have to throw her out of our future. But clearances or not, I knew she had FCP which is elbow dysplasia. I spayed her. I could have blamed an accident and bred her I suppose- but ED is painful, and why would I do that to her? Elbow dysplasia is dysplasia. Period.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/fragmented-coronoid-process-or-fcp-in-dogs

There is a good illustration in this description of FCP.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I don't think that is what she said. If the hypothetical agility dog who had an injury after he had an elbow clearance, that dog could be bred.
> A dog such as your dog, though, he did not have clear elbows ever- so yes, he should be tossed. If he were not light in color, he offers nothing to the breed imo - he's not titled and isn't a working dog, so his color is all he has to offer. It is a shame people use him.
> We've all had to throw a dog out- it is how we handle those scenarios that tell our ethics...
> my own ED story is my OFA Excellent bitch WITH an elbow clearance- yes- she had all of her clearances- but when I found her transient limp (every time we entered an obedience trial of course) was the result of FCP I spayed and placed her. It's hard to raise a bitch to 3 YO and then have to throw her out of our future. But clearances or not, I knew she had FCP which is elbow dysplasia. I spayed her. I could have blamed an accident and bred her I suppose- but ED is painful, and why would I do that to her? Elbow dysplasia is dysplasia. Period.


Actually he did clear elbows in Europe. So who ever is saying that isn't true. He actually was also shown in Europe and has multiple-CAC's . As far as i am concerned his titles from Europe is a good as the AKC titles. So that doesn't make him any more valuable or less than any dog from the USA. He has a lot to offer he is working on therapy training and to me that is more important than any championship he has won in Europe. Yes i have thrown out dogs. I just threw one out i purchased in March. You know him based on a accident. That is your choose. I find he works well with Autistic children and hoping to use him with them. His temperament is amazing. Knock him but to us he is wonderful.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The European elbow you say you have on Dillan is a prelim- it was done when he was not quite a year old. So no= he does not have an elbow clearance. 
For that matter, 0/1 is not an OFA rating. So you have inaccurate info on your site as to his elbows.

The reality is, all your excuses here have just pointed out to anyone who googles you that your lack of ethics around Golden Retrievers is glaring.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Lori Froderman said:


> Prism Goldens said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think that is what she said. If the hypothetical agility dog who had an injury after he had an elbow clearance, that dog could be bred.
> ...


 lori, goldens are hunting dogs and you want to better the breed by getting hunt titles to keep the hunt instincts going. German shepherds in Germany have a thing called IPO/shutzhund and it is a requirement to get at minimum a IPO1/schh1, the test makes it so the dog being used for breeding is a dog that will better the breed.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Nate83 said:


> lori, goldens are hunting dogs and you want to better the breed by getting hunt titles to keep the hunt instincts going. German shepherds in Germany have a thing called IPO/shutzhund and it is a requirement to get at minimum a IPO1/schh1, the test makes it so the dog being used for breeding is a dog that will better the breed.


I do agree with improving the breed. We already do Pennhip ( the OFA Hip is a cheaper test but those results aren't as good or accurate), Elbows, PRA1, PRA2, Prcd-PRA, Thyroid, Dm, Patella, Heart and Eyes. These test we already do and follow on the dogs. 

However a elbow that has been done that is cleared can changed due to a trauma. A Elbow will show problems early if genetic that is all i was saying with that male. The first elbow was normal, this was done with a microchip so you can't question the dog. 

We even now do every dog's clearance under microchip and are now sending Pennhip to OFA to list. They have begin taking those as well. So if we weren't trying to enhance the breed. We would just do the bare minimum health test's and the cheaper hip tests. We have made strives using the Pennhip method in the hip department where we could never make through the OFA hips. 

I don't do hunting dogs. Not everyone wants a hunting dog. 

Goldens are one of the best family dogs i have ever meet. There intelligence is amazing when trained. They do amazing therapy for people with PTSD. We get military people who suffer from being over sea's and in action. We found that they make one of the best dogs for a person who has suffered a sever trauma in life. My husband was one of the ones to start me in the therapy programs. This was due to he was over seas in the war. They can be used for a number of good reasons. We have a few who have worked with the Kennedy Krieger Institute for children with Autism. They are a most forgiving dog. Hunting is just a small part of what they are capable of. They can feel a lot of the emotions directly from the person having problems.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> The European elbow you say you have on Dillan is a prelim- it was done when he was not quite a year old. So no= he does not have an elbow clearance.
> For that matter, 0/1 is not an OFA rating. So you have inaccurate info on your site as to his elbows.
> 
> The reality is, all your excuses here have just pointed out to anyone who googles you that your lack of ethics around Golden Retrievers is glaring.


1 is a Grade 1 in the USA. If he had elbow problems from genetics it would have shown up on that clearance that called him normal. I know it and you do to. You don't have to count it that is fine. That was done under a microchip as well so you can tell me it wasn't him. The dog today would also be lame and he isn't. 

You also probably know that hip or elbow can't at this point be linked to any genetics due to there is no genetic test to prove it is actually caused by a genetic problem. So no matter how hard i try with Pennhip or Elbows it all could be for nothing. 

You also probably know the genetic portion maybe from the skeleton growing to fast on the dog and how the ligaments are stretched, I am sure you know that as well. You are also aware i am sure. It may be a growth related abnormality. Which also can't be proven due to no genetic test. So really hip and elbow clearances people are trying to clear maybe be obsolete if we find the genetic trait actually causing it. We might find out later that there is some type of gene on the chromosomes with the ligaments that cause it. We maybe putting two carriers together unaware causing these problems. 

So although you have your opinion everyone might be totally incorrect on what is causing it. We know there are outside factors that can cause trauma, obesity extra. However know one really know's the genetic reason for hip or elbow problems. So it can't be corrected until they make break throughs with genetics to find the cause. That is actually just the facts. So all your talk of ethics and breeding in the end you don't know anymore than anyone else because the answers haven't been discovered yet by geneticist. Until we really have answers everything is a theory and someone trying a better way. So no matter what people read on this website. The answers aren't there for breeders yet. That is just the truth to the buyers. Try to cut it anyway you want but we don't have the genetic reason for it's cause and a test to remove it. So my trying to clear with my ways and beliefs is no better than yours in the end!!! Until the genetic cause is found there is no way to remove it.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I hope any potential puppy buyers see this thread before entering into any agreements...I do wish this would be a breeder I could refer people to since I see a lot of folks searching for a responsible breeder in MD, but reading this thread, it's all about the puppy sales & selling whatever story supports the sales of puppies. And frankly, I don't know why this thread keeps getting resurrected, nothing said is making the breeder appear in any better light--if this were my "business" I would hope the thread would just die a quiet death to be buried deep within a google search.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Regardless what caused it, your dog has elbow dysplasia. 
He should not be bred. Trauma in a sporting dog causing dysplasia is a bigger problem than you are seeing.

And btw- a Golden Retriever IS a gentleman's hunting companion.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

On k9data it says left unknown left 0 and right 1. Right there that's a problem, how can you have 1 on one elbow and unknown 0 on the other. I did very well in biology and I do believe you need 2 elbows so if one is good and the other isnt then why breed? Also if you breed a dog and do not keep up what it was greed for the dog will lose it over time.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

Nate83 said:


> On k9data it says left unknown left 0 and right 1. Right there that's a problem, how can you have 1 on one elbow and unknown 0 on the other. I did very well in biology and I do believe you need 2 elbows so if one is good and the other isnt then why breed? Also if you breed a dog and do not keep up what it was greed for the dog will lose it over time.


The reading was a normal on then left. Which is normal states 0 no problem on k9 data. After the accident and the orthopedic following him with X-rays he develop a Grade 1 in his right elbow. He was followed by orthopedics. He had a series of films to see if the injury would cause any problems. It wasn't just one set of films for his elbows. There was a series over several months time to watch and see if it developed. This cause wasn't just one picture and that is it with OFA. 

If you look at Violet of Promise Land she had a trauma to her elbow at one point you will see it was followed also. Go on her clearance page. That injury didn't leave any lasting effects as you can see. Was she followed yes. Did we do series of films following her yes.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori, the thing is this- you live in the United States.The Parent Club of the Golden Retriever for those of us who live in the US is GRCA. 
GRCA has a code of ethics. The CoE says hips and elbows after 24 months old because things change. Your dog's elbow that was clear was done before he was one year old. Things change. He does not have clear elbows and blaming an accident for the dysplasia is either totally irresponsible or uneducated.. I get it- you have $$ tied up in him. And you have a brokering business by which you sell GR puppies. You probably make $$ on his stud fees. Regardless, he has the equivalent of a passing elbow prelim and a failing elbow final. I don't get why you don't get that. And as I have said before, if a normal rough and tumble life causes dysplasia, there's something wrong there... he is not a safe bet for breeding. And you do not adhere to the Code of Ethics in more ways than just that one- brokering is also frowned upon. Thankfully, anyone who googles you will see this thread and will realize your lack of understanding re:genetics and dysplasia.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Here is my issue Lori...
You live in the US
Your Dysplasistic stud dog lives in the US. 
You should follow the breeding standards of the US. 
In fact you have voluntarily joined the Bred with H.E.A.R.T program in which you agreed to follow those standards. 
Those standards say elbows are to be tested at or after 24 months. You did and he failed by a finding of Dysplasia. A preliminary report from another country at less than 24 months does not satisfy the rules you agreed to abide by. That is the most damaging thing here to your reputation. You make commitments to health you don’t keep and keep trying to find excuses and red herring arguments, but your lack of ethical commitment to your word and agreements is very disturbing. 

You can be assured there are quite a few US breeders that have dogs with passing 12 month old prelims and failing finals at 24 months. The ethical thing to do is remove the dog from your program.


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## Lori Froderman (Jun 11, 2018)

LJack said:


> Here is my issue Lori...
> You live in the US
> Your Dysplasistic stud dog lives in the US.
> You should follow the breeding standards of the US.
> ...


I have experience and know from a $6000 bill for surgery and a orthopedic that a dog can have a jumpers injury. The bottom ligament can rip off from the bone and the top can be partially severed. The ligaments have to be reattached. A dog can go from 100 percent to 0 percent and not walk in one minute. Evidently it is a common injury in those that compete in agility. This personally for me has only happened one time. I know for a fact that an injury can effect readings of any dog sent to the OFA or any other Country as well. Since i have followed the dogs and xrayed them multiple times. Some people who do agility according to them have these injuries and return after a few months of healing. They are no big deal and happen. I have talked to numerous people who have had surgeries and the same injuries. I on the other don't like to put a dog in that position to happen again. Trauma such as that which we have now been through is not something i care to repeat ever. It is not the money to repair it is the pain and suffering a dog would go through is why i have no interest in agility. So i know for fact that a injury can sometimes leave Dysplasia and sometimes it doesn't. That is why over excerising your dog causes bad elbows and hips at times. This condition doesn't have to have anything to do with being bred into a dog. 

There is no excuses from me there is just experiences who have taught me lessons good or bad over the years. 

I also have orthopedics help pick out my dogs for breeding and do follow there advise. They can tell me even before the OFA would even see a film that the dog is not a breakable dog. They have always lead me down the correct path. I am also told by orthopedics many times genetic problems show in both elbows of the dog. This is from working with them for years. I do believe there is some form of genetics which cause problems for Dysplasistic dogs. I have read numerous theories on why we have dysplasia. I have know idea if some dogs can't process certain vitamins correctly and causes, if it is bone related, if it is ligament related or even if it is a trait on the chromosomes that has not been discovered and both dogs are carriers and people are putting them together causes some of the puppies problem for the future. I have read papers from all over the world. I have had vets from Scotland fly to USA and purchase some of our dogs and had lengthy discussions on genetics and what is done in Europe. I have also discussed these things with numerous vets in the USA who have also purchased our dogs. I still come up with no one knows for sure. I am sure that if the OFA and GRCA knew for sure there would be a test and it would be published. It would then give breeders a way to clear Dysplasistic dogs forever.

I understand your point. However your group isn't taking the time to consider the other ways these things are formed. I try to teach my customers through my experiences to educate them so that these bad things never happen to them or there dogs. 

If i didn't believe in clearances i won't keep trying to improve. I constantly ask questions try the latest procedures even if they are three times the cost to try to improve my dogs in a whole. If i wanted to hurt the breed I would not even go the extra mile and keep researching and talking with others all over the world to see what they have discovered. If they have discovered something better than the USA i would like to try it. Yes i feel by me trying to research all over the world and find who has the best methods that does fit in the Bred with H.E.A.R.T program. A breeder who doesn't ever try to improve in any way at all would not. A lot of the rules the GRCA follow were from studies done first in Europe and then repeated in the USA to confirm the findings.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Lori Froderman said:


> I understand your point. However your group isn't taking the time to consider the other ways these things are formed. I try to teach my customers through my experiences to educate them so that these bad things never happen to them or there dogs.


"....Their"

How do you know what is being considered here?
Sure, an accident can cause a dysplasia to present sooner... but if the joints are correct, a normal tussle will not cause dysplasia. And that's really irrelevant. What is relevant (to me) is that you are claiming an accident is your way to NOT follow the rules, the CoE, the Bred w Heart program... all because YOU want to imagine YOU know what caused your dog to pass prelims and fail finals. That's really the guts of it- and YOU are the one educating your 'customers' incorrectly so that YOU can sell them a puppy from a stud dog who is inadequate in his role. He is not a good bet healthwise and you are the one perpetuating the idea that you know best. ... I'm done now. You obviously want to be right. If you can sleep at night knowing you have been outed here, then great. But not for one minute will anyone who is educated believe your point of view.
edit: here's one of your 'education' examples..from earlier in the thread- you told this fella his pup's dam couldn't get an eye clearance because of an ACCIDENT... well = corneal scratches absolutely can clear... but I would guess the ACCIDENT is one of your imagination....
" She's from the Chloe-Trident, June 17, 2011, litter. I'm truly interested in learning more about the breeder, so please don't read any of my comments as defensive in any way.

When I checked Chloe's clearances, I learned that her lack of an eye clearance is due to a corneal scratch, not an eye defect. For what it's worth. But I didn't realize that Trident is so young..."

and that's your puppy person talking. I imagine you talked so fast they didn't realize the dog was so young, and didn't have clearances, and of course they believed you on the scratch.. but it isn't the truth anymore than the ED is an accident.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Lori Froderman said:


> If i wanted to hurt the breed I would not even go the extra mile and keep researching and talking with others all over the world to see what they have discovered. If they have discovered something better than the USA i would like to try it. Yes i feel by me trying to research all over the world and find who has the best methods that does fit in the Bred with H.E.A.R.T program. A breeder who doesn't ever try to improve in any way at all would not. A lot of the rules the GRCA follow were from studies done first in Europe and then repeated in the USA to confirm the findings.


This sounds great & I'm sure might be believable by someone not active in the breed, but quite honestly we're on 15 pages now of gibberish. This breeder is not active in the breed to know what "bettering" even means & quite honestly, how can one better anything when the education about the breed is so lacking. The breeder is here to peddle pups w/ pedigrees from overseas, w/ titles from overseas--they're parked in puppy buyers homes to allow the breeder to have a large number of litters each year. This is a business venture & nothing more. 

And you know what's funny, sad but funny, per the website, the stud dogs are available to bitches w/ normal elbows...would think after all these rambling paragraphs, it might state normal elbows and/or those who are dysplastic due to trauma.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

I'm not a breeder. I haven't done lots of genetics and research on orthopedics. I love having a healthy active Golden Retriever. I would only buy from someone who completely follows the Code of Ethics of the Golden Retriever Club of America by doing at a minimum the 4 health clearances by the required professional at the required age and posting them on OFA. No amount of words will ever change my buying philosophy from this.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Well said cwag!


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

It is very easy to bamboozle puppy buyers who just see an adorable ball of fur...

Entirely a different story when experienced, knowledgeable breeders call you out for half-truths and blatant falsehoods.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Lori Froderman said:


> Yes i feel by me trying to research all over the world and find who has the best methods that does fit in the Bred with H.E.A.R.T program. A breeder who doesn't ever try to improve in any way at all would not. A lot of the rules the GRCA follow were from studies done first in Europe and then repeated in the USA to confirm the findings.


But, clearly the methods you use don’t. The bred with H.E.A.R.T. program is clear. It lists...
Hips at 24 months or later
Elbows at 24 months or later
Heart by a cardiologist at 12 months or later
Eyes annually by an ophthalmologist 
All of this to be verifiable on a protected data base such as OFA

Again misleading statements and red herring arguments. 

If you can’t uphold your word with honor and integrity, you should not give it by voluntarily participating in this program. 

Instead you look to other countries that have much less stringent standards and make excuses to breed dogs with dysplsia. That by the way is not opinion, it is documented fact regardless of what you say.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lori Froderman said:


> I have experience and know from a $6000 bill for surgery and a orthopedic that a dog can have a jumpers injury. The bottom ligament can rip off from the bone and the top can be partially severed. The ligaments have to be reattached. A dog can go from 100 percent to 0 percent and not walk in one minute. Evidently it is a common injury in those that compete in agility. This personally for me has only happened one time. I know for a fact that an injury can effect readings of any dog sent to the OFA or any other Country as well. Since i have followed the dogs and xrayed them multiple times. Some people who do agility according to them have these injuries and return after a few months of healing. They are no big deal and happen. I have talked to numerous people who have had surgeries and the same injuries. I on the other don't like to put a dog in that position to happen again. Trauma such as that which we have now been through is not something i care to repeat ever. It is not the money to repair it is the pain and suffering a dog would go through is why i have no interest in agility.


Small tiny comment....

Most common injuries in agility aren't the elbows.

If you are talking muscle - it's back, shoulders, thighs. 

I take my guys to a chiropractor regularly and have heard along the grapevine that one of the most common and devastating problems to deal with are injuries to a very deep muscle in the rear/back. It takes a long time to heal and sometimes it never heals. Illeaposisufhkjh <= I can't spell the name of the muscle. 

Fwiw, when pets chase tennis balls and leap and twist the hinds in an awkward way and develop intermittent limping or soreness, most people check the hips and knees, and forget that there's other big important muscles that get strained and torn. 

You'd think that it would be a higher percentage of elbow problems - except, people are discouraged from jumping the dogs until they are at least 1.5 years old - to wait as long as possible for growth plates to close. That's not just jumping, that's also doing weaves and other exercises which apparently cause problems with a growing dog. And some of the biggest competitors out there that I know of, get a peek at hips and elbows at 12 months prior to ramping up on training. 

A dog with bad elbows or hips is more likely to develop injuries, not just in those areas but in the back (because they are compensating and shifting their weight differently than a normal healthy dog would). <= This is another reason why people check the hips and elbows prior to ramping up on training.

Avoiding doing anything with dogs for fear of injury - might as well wrap the dogs in bubble wrap. My older boy suffered an early retirement injury to his back when he was about 6 years old. This was due to my younger guy running into him and sending him tumbling and twisting down into the drainage dip (not a huge dip!) way out in front of our property. Likewise, younger guy pulled a butt muscle when going on a very rugged and long hike (that was the worst injury because it caused only the very slightest change to his gait that I could not see at his side and was only visible to others when rounding left turns). 

Jumping for obedience - I know people who drill jumps repeatedly. I've sat there and watched while waiting my own turn. With my guy and because I know injuries happen, I aim for 1-2 good jumps and quit. It's not necessary to drill them repeatedly - esp if you have a natural jumper. Not to elbows necessarily, but pulled muscles up higher in the shoulders from dogs skid-slipping when landing. This is especially true for directed jumping when the dog lands and immediately starts pivoting to come to front in the middle of the ring. We train the dogs in the hopes that they land and come forward 1-2 steps before trotting in to front. Same thing with broad jumps. The dogs want to land and turn at the same time, and this can cause injuries. We train the dogs to land and go forward at least 1-2 steps before coming back for front. 

I'm sure there's the same types of training-to-avoid-injury in agility. This primarily because it was only last year that I watched somebody doing a demo with a 12 year old golden who had all her clearances 10 years before and she still was as spry as her grandpups and great-grandpups. <= This is where everyone wants to get when they do full clearances and aim to avoid breeding to dogs who failed clearances or have failed clearances close behind them.

Might add just as a small tiny extra bit.... I had a field private yesterday and this was the first time I brought my almost 11 year old with. Jacks can never do field because of his fear of loud-booms. And I can't even say the word Boom around him without him whipping his head to look out a window to see if it's storming. But he got to do everything else. He LOVED IT. It was something to make you teary eyed to see an old dog just showing that he has everything in his little body still when it comes to what he's supposed to DO as a hunting dog. 

We worked practical hunting stuff with my guys taking turns finding a flyer hidden in the field. This is not anything they would be expected to DO as retrievers, but it was fun doing and seeing which dog was better at finding the bird and chasing it out to fly. Bertie found the birds the fastest, but he was also the softer dog when approaching the bird. Jacks was running with mouth open and ready to grab when he found the bird. He was like a shark out there. LOL. Minus the shredding. Thank God he didn't shred the birds!

With a wounded bird who couldn't fly but was running or swimming away - both dogs were having a ball retrieving in turn. Jacks was the one who I basically had this feeling like no matter what, we were not going to lose any birds with him out there. Again, he was plunging into the thick grass and heavy bushes to track down the birds. One track mind. It was like all instincts were turned on. 

^ The above is what it's like playing in field. You do not have to use harsh training methods or zap collars. A lot of the times, you are standing back with a big stupid grin on your face to see the dogs having so much fun.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Megora said:


> You'd think that it would be a higher percentage of elbow problems - except, people are discouraged from jumping the dogs until they are at least 1.5 years old - to wait as long as possible for growth plates to close. That's not just jumping, that's also doing weaves and other exercises which apparently cause problems with a growing dog. And some of the biggest competitors out there that I know of, get a peek at hips and elbows at 12 months prior to ramping up on training.


FWIW - the agility club down here is very careful about safety and injuries from the sport. Dog are not allowed to do jumps until they've been cleared by their vets and have had at least their hips cleared by x-ray. In addition to that jumps are restricted to low heights until the bones are fully matured and drilling is frowned upon.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

You know Lori, as mostly an observer in this thread, I have to say - I can practically see you sitting back in satisfaction of "there - I told them" after each post. But instead, what the reader is seeing is you throwing out strawman arguments, and twisting things to justify to YOURSELF why you are a less than reputable breeder. 

I am even more thankful that I found an HONEST breeder whose words I can trust, and know that she's not going to lie to me. In fact, I know that if needed, she'll be very blunt with me. AND she follows the GRCA Code of Ethics, which is extremely important to me as a puppy buyer.

With each post, you're actually making yourself look more and more suspect. Instead of just doing the right thing, you proceed to make more excuses. You're the only one who doesn't see that.


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## TruthHurts (8 mo ago)

There is no point in even talking to this lady because ANYTHING that comes from this woman always has some lies in it that will benefit her. She is not fully truthful and omits A LOT of information to buyers just to keep filling her pockets. It’s such a shame that somebody who loved the breed so much has allowed greed and hunger for money to take over the whole reason on why she breeds them. Breeding 4 females at once when they just had a litter in my opinion is ridiculous. (Again, I have got my information from her close friend that works with her)


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