# Ugh, Vanectyl P not working?



## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Today I noticed Lincoln biting his rear. Like near his hip joint/ base of tail area. I moved the fur around and notices a red area. Just a small one, looked like a rash. He is still not scratching nearly as bad as he was before the Vanectyl P.

What could this red area be? I am just so flippin confused about whats going on. He gets these every now and again usually in the same area. I thought the Vanectyl P was suppose to take down inflammation so why is that area all red...

I notice his skin is still flaky and dry even though hes on the Fish oil from the vet 

I am planning to get him allergy tested with Dr Dodds Nutriscan kit this summer but thats the soonest I can do that. Thyroid this summer was another plan

Any ideas? Should I up the dose of Vanectyl P?


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Bump Bumpity Bump!


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

I would call your vet and see what they have to say. See if it is possible to increase the dose on the steroid. 
Maybe he is just reacting from the dry heat in the house making his skin flaky.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Today I noticed Lincoln biting his rear. Like near his hip joint/ base of tail area. I moved the fur around and notices a red area. Just a small one, looked like a rash. He is still not scratching nearly as bad as he was before the Vanectyl P.
> 
> What could this red area be? I am just so flippin confused about whats going on. He gets these every now and again usually in the same area. I thought the Vanectyl P was suppose to take down inflammation so why is that area all red...
> 
> ...



Are you giving the dosage amount ordered for your dog? I think I remember you posting that some days 1 or 2 tabs. You should be consistent with you dosing for optimal effectiveness of the drug.

How long has be been on the fish oil? It takes time to work. It will take at least a month to start to work.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Its been 2 months since I started the fish oil maybe 3. The vet told me to play with the dose. She said some dogs need 2 pills one day and 1 pill the next day. She said sometimes dogs do fine on 1 pill every other day. It depends on the dog. 

I notice a rash between his back toes I assume thats just the salt on the cement outside. The Vanectyl P is 5mg trimeprazine and prednisolone 2mg. 41 lbs and up give 3 tablets. These tablets are given twice a day. After 4 days, the dose is typically reduced to 1/2 the initial dose. Keep plenty of water available for the pet. Temaril-P should be given with food.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

That is a loading dose. You need to keep up with the specifications or you are wasting your money. That means continuing with it every day, not when you feel like giving more or less. 

If you follow the directions as prescribed and he is still having the inflammation-- a trip to the vet is in order. No sense being miserable when something else may do the trick.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Theres nothing else to give him though. I cannot afford Atopica. The vets directions were to get him to the lowest dose possible. She said she would like to see him on 1 pill every other day. But I dont see how thats possible. He needs at least 2 a day to make him not itch nearly as bad. 

Hes not bad now, before this medication he was itching non stop every 30 seconds. 

What else is there he could go on? She told me she wants to keep him on this when I asked about giving just straight prednisolone. His skin was never really inflammed though. When he was constantly itching at his sides the skin wasnt red there. So I am just confused as to whats going on.


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## 2Retrievers222 (Sep 5, 2007)

I have the answer to Lincoln,s skin and food problems. Well I should say you have the answers. Don,t want to take credit where credit is do. I was searching Raw dog food videos, to maybe make my own. 

Came across Awesome video. I don,t have to make one. I was going to make one for people who ask me how. Now I can tell them about yours instead. You must of forgot about video. You mentioned you took Lincoln off Raw because he started to get runs. Just add more bone, like you said. No itching anymore.

What a transformation


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

He did great on the RAW diet for 1 year. Made a huge transformation. Then one by one his issues started to come back. He got the massive runs that no matter how much bone was added he would just crap it out. He stopped digesting every piece of bone I gave him. I noticed the connection between starting his immune suppressing eye ointment and him starting to go south on raw. 

I dont have the money to fix a blockage from him not digesting bone. I gave it an honest shot and I just dont think he can handle the raw diet any more.

Also why should I take credit for the video I made? I honestly didnt think it was that good. It was just something I threw together at random when people started to ask me how I fed raw


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Today I noticed Lincoln biting his rear. Like near his hip joint/ base of tail area. I moved the fur around and notices a red area. Just a small one, looked like a rash. He is still not scratching nearly as bad as he was before the Vanectyl P.
> 
> What could this red area be? I am just so flippin confused about whats going on. He gets these every now and again usually in the same area. I thought the Vanectyl P was suppose to take down inflammation so why is that area all red...
> 
> ...


 
Many fish oil products actually have ethoxyquin in them and other chemicals because of where the fish come from. Still many more dogs have sensitivities to fish/salmon. 

If the itching subsides when giving the dog more of the fish oil product, then I wouldn't think this would be the case with this particular product though. 

You are also giving the dog a steroid by giving the Vanectyl P and steroids do depress the immune system and one of the side effects of pred is dry, course hair. 

Is it possible the dog may have a systemic yeast infection?

I would certainly have the thyroid panel run when you can and would probably do that before any other testing.


Best of luck!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

The vet said she didnt think it was a yeast infection.

Thyroid will have to wait till the summer as funds are tight. I can tell you, that his coat is so gross off the steroids that 3-4 days after I give him a bath his fur gets all greasy and smelly, and when I pet him my there is a white residue on my hands. 

The dose he is on for the steroid isnt an immune suppressing dose its an anti inflammatory dose which is 0.1-0.3mg per pound of body weight taken twice daily. From what I read online an immunosuppressive dose would be 1-3mg per pound of body weight given 3 times daily. 

He has always been itchy no matter what diet he was on. Ive even done elimination diets with no success. I am starting to think its just very poor genetics..


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## SandyK (Mar 20, 2011)

Sorry Lincoln is having issues with skin. I hope you are able to get things figured out for him. Good luck!!


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Lincoln_16 said:


> The vet said she didnt think it was a yeast infection.
> 
> Thyroid will have to wait till the summer as funds are tight. I can tell you, that his coat is so gross off the steroids that 3-4 days after I give him a bath his fur gets all greasy and smelly, and when I pet him my there is a white residue on my hands.
> 
> ...


 
Steroids are steroids and they act as an immunosupressent, no matter the dose. What you are reading about 1-3 mg/lb is more for treating cancers. Most dogs cannot actually stand that high of a dose and will need to be backed off or try an alternative type of therapy.

For example, a typical golden with a hot spot type problem/other itching issue will typically get 5-10 mg of pred given twice daily. This has to be tapered off because the body does manufacture its own steroids and so you taper off by slowly backing down on the dose so the body can start production again.

Someone had mentioned that some days you were giving different amounts of the pills. Any drug that has a steroid in it has to be maintained in the body so the correct level of the steroid is there. Again, because the body manufactures its own steroids, using different doses at different times is just confusing everything.

Every dog responds differently to these type drugs. Some dogs will require a higher dose and will need the higher dose for a longer period before backing down to a maintainence dose. Other dogs are hypersenstive to steroids and only need very small amounts. From what I gather reading your posts, this has been a problem for quite some time and if the dose hasn't been consistent, it will take some time before the body can regulate the levels.

The greasy hair coat combined with the white residue can be classic problems with dogs with thyroid issues who have then developed a secondary yeast infection.

You had said that funds were tight, and I cerainly understand that. I would recommend getting some Selsun Blue shampoo and bathing the dog in that once a week for about a month. If at all possible, you want to dry the dog with a dryer to make sure the skin gets dry.

If the red area you are talking about has any raised bumps at all, like a rash or a pimple, it may have become a staph infection.

You had also mentioned you couldn't afford the Atopica but there is also a generic available.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I looked into the generic brand for the Atopica. Thats only 1/3 cheaper from the math I did from what dose he would require. I have something the vet gave me, she said it was like Selsum blue. Its an antifungal, antibacterial and antipuritic all in one. Cannot remember the name. She said to use it once a week and I do notice some of a difference with it. Should I try the selsum Blue anyway?

For the thyroid the panel will cost me $160 to run and I was going to pay Dr Dodds $45 consult fee to have her read the results for me and give my vet her opinion. However, I cannot make my vet listen to her. Vets here get their panties in a knot whenever you ask for another vets opinion especially a specialist. How exactly would I get the medication for his thyroid if the vet doesnt end up agreeing with Dr Dodds? I just dont want this money to go to waste. My vet and any other vet I have seen says "He isnt your typical thyroid dog", hes not fat, lazy, losing hair. But, I feel he is thyroid. 

You know when you have a funny feeling in your gut? I had this with his eyes. I KNEW he had Pannus, the second I noticed it. Sure enough I was right even though my previous vet said no no Pannus is on the cornea not the sclera. I had this same feeling when I read Dr Dodds page on thyroid. 

Right now, the vet wants more blood work done. She also wants a $40 Free T4 test done but I think at this point its a waste of money to run just the T4 when in a few more months ill just run the full panel. So for now I was going to do a Chem2 and CBC as well as his regular Heart worm. I was also going to look into the food allergy Nutriscan kit. 

Funds are tight and I have to budget what I want to do with what my vet will allow. Before she will give me a refill on his Vanectyl P she wants blood work. So that needs to come first, then I will run the thyroid. 

All in this mess she wants to re vaccinate him...says its fine to. I disagree. 

He was treated the beginning of December for Pyoderma and was given 2 weeks of antibiotics. After telling the vet (my old vet) I would like 3-4 weeks as 2 weeks was never enough for him she laughed at me and said 2 weeks is plenty. Sure enough, 2 weeks after the antibiotics were done I had him at the new vet for even more pyoderma which she said was a staph infection. She listened to me and gave me 3 weeks worth. So far, *knocks on wood* the pyoderma hasnt come back. just the red spot on his back end, that is now gone. 

So I dunno if maybe the steroid is keeping him from scratching and damaging his skin thus not creating anymore infections. Hopefully it stays that way. The vet told me to start off with 3 pills twice daily for 5 days, then 3 pills daily for 5 days, then 3 pills every other day for 5 days then play around with the dose. She said some dogs do well on 1 pill every other day, some need 2 pills one day 1 pill the next. So right now hes on 2 pills a day. 

Could it be his body just isnt producing its own steroids period?


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Lincoln_16 said:


> Should I try the selsum Blue anyway?
> ****I personally recommend this to any dog who is having itching symptoms no matter what the cause or the breed. We have a almost 13 yo golden who started having prostrate problems a couple years ago. As a side effect to medicine that he was given for the prostrate, he developed some problems itching. I bought sooooo many bottles of shampoos from the vet and from other places that were recommeded-I probably have $700 in shampoo sitting here. The Selsun Blue worked better than anything those expensive shampoos did.
> 
> 
> ...


*****When a dog is given prednisone or prenisolone, they do stop producing their own cortisone-which is the stroid the pred is replacing. This is why you need to taper.....so the body can wake back up and notice-oh, we are down on cortisone, we need to start production again! 

The steroid is being used to try to stop the itching. I think it is probably the opposite and the itching is being exaserbated by the underlying thyroid/yeast problem and so it is becoming a vicious cycle. Thyroid does cause dry skin and flaking and this can make the dogs itchy. I had seen you had mentioned in another post about digestion issues and these can also be caused by thyroid issues. The parathyroid gland really supports the function of the entire body in one way or another and when it isn't working properly, it can throw the whole body out of whack.

Best of luck and will keep fingers crossed!


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Yeah, So if he is on the lowest dose possible of the Vanectyl P will he still produce some of his own? 

I have no problem running the blood work. I just hope every thing comes back okay because I cannot treat any more problems for a few months. 

Here, Rabies is required by law but the Province of Ontario accepts a medical waiver for any pet of any age for the vaccine if they cannot receive it. The issue is having the vet on the same page as me about no vaccinating as she says its safe, well I disagree. Its not just the steroids I am worried about its the fact hes on Optimmune which is an immune suppressent given in the eyes twice daily. I just dont feel hes safe to vaccinate. Rabies is not popular here, a couple cases a year and no where near my area. 

I also feel the rabies vaccine lasts 5-7 years. Its been 3 since hes had one so I think hes okay. Titres are not accepted by the province so thats out. If the vet keeps nagging me about it I will tell her shes welcome to vaccinate IF she is willing to treat any negative effects free of charge. If not, then I will not vaccinate. 

I will grab a bottle of the selsum blue. His skin isnt to terrible now. He is on 1 pill of the Vanectyl P a day now and he still itches the odd time but other then that hes good. 

I will be running blood work the end of April, hopefully she doesnt force me to test the Free T4 and black mail me with the medication. I doubt shes like that, I like her and I can say I have never liked any vet I have been to here yet. So theres a point towards her. 

Then thyroid testing will be on my list. I think when I go in for blood work I will ask her if Dr Dodds (I will remind her shes the US top leading thyroid specialist) finds he has a thyroid problem if she would be willing to give me meds...see what she says. If no, I will go to another vet.


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