# "Reptilian/slanted" eyes in Goldens



## lgnutah

On another thread, someone made a reference to some Goldens having almost oriental looking eyes. Is this visible when they are puppies? 
Does anyone know anything about the genetics of that eye type?


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## fostermom

No, but I have definitely seen it in adult goldens.


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## lgnutah

I was just wondering where that type of eye could have originated. I found this describing the dogs that made up the GR breed:
*In the ancestry of the Golden Retriever are water spaniels including those bred near Inverness in Scotland, the Newfoundland, the Irish Setter and the Bloodhound.*
Does any of these dogs have that type of eye?


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## Golden123

What do you mean by that?


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## marieb

I would be interested to learn more, Maddie's eyes are slanted and I know it's not breed standard but I love her anyways. 

Anyways I'll attach a puppy and adult picture. I think her eyes do still look the same ...


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## Jax's Mom

She's beautiful just the way she is!


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## marieb

Jax's Mom said:


> She's beautiful just the way she is!


Thank you she's hanging out on the couch with me right now!


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## lgnutah

Golden123 said:


> What do you mean by that?


Genetics. Eye shape. Whether hair is curly or straight. All determined by ancestor genes that have been inherited.

So, if there is a different eye shape, it would have to be inherited. So I was asking if any of the predecessor dogs (in the list that I found of possibly ancestor dogs to the Golden) had that "oriental" eye shape.

I was wondering if anyone had thought about this.


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## Golden123

lgnutah said:


> Genetics. Eye shape. Whether hair is curly or straight. All determined by ancestor genes that have been inherited.
> 
> So, if there is a different eye shape, it would have to be inherited. So I was asking if any of the predecessor dogs (in the list that I found of possibly ancestor dogs to the Golden) had that "oriental" eye shape.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone had thought about this.


 Okay. I never heard of oriental eye before.


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## lgnutah

I had never heard of or thought about eye shape in Goldens either, until I read another thread where someone referred to that eye type as "oriental". It just got me to thinking about the genetics of the eye shape.


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## marieb

I think it's also referred to as "reptilian" eyes.


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## rappwizard

This is from the golden retriever standard, so we can all see how the eyes are described according to the standard (what an ideal golden should look like). 

Eyes
Friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead.


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## Jo Ellen

I've been looking for a picture of a golden with "reptilian" or "oriental" eyes forever. Would love to know what exactly this is.


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## amy22

Id like to know too....


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## K9-Design

Yeah, I'm not seeing what you guys are talking about. The person who posted the picture of her golden with "******" eyes -- I guess she has smallish eyes but they're a perfectly acceptable and normal shape for a golden. Honestly I can't think of a golden who I've ever thought looked "Oriental."
I saw where one person on another thread described a dog they saw as having a "reptilian" expression. It's funny because I HAVE seen this and I know EXACTLY what she means! The skin was taut on the face, the lips were pulled back farther than normal when the mouth was open, the foreface and eyebrows had no expressive flesh, the stop was too sloping. It really did look like a dragon or lizard. EXTREMELY incorrect.


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## Pointgold

This is a good illustration as to correct eyes. "*Reptilian*" eyes would be too light, and either "squinty" or overly round.


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## Pointgold

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=46493&highlight=Understanding+Breed+Standard


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## Jo Ellen

I'd like to see a picture of a golden with reptilian eyes, not just a diagram. I still have a hard time understanding exactly what this is.


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## tippykayak

There has GOT to be a better term than "oriental." The term is not accurate or descriptive, and it is rife with the potential to offend.

What's wrong with "slanted?"


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## Pointgold

Given that there seems to be such a question as to what 
"reptilian eyes" actually are, or, slanted/"oriental", whatever, I'm pretty sure it will be difficult finding pictures labeled as such. I'm sure that dogs with such grossly/obviously incorrect eyes aren't winning in the ring so there aren't likely to be show photos. I know that I've seen phtoos of dogs with too round eyes many times, which is a fault seen more often than "reptilian" or whatver they are being called. Also "pig eye" - small, round eyes.
Sorry that the illustrated standard from Canada's diagram is not understandable. I think they've done a very good job with it.


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## hotel4dogs

I refuse to post a photo of any dogs that have what I consider a "reptilian" look because of the potential to offend their owners. 
When you see one, you will know exactly what I am talking about!


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## Jo Ellen

I've actually been on the lookout for this feature since the topic first came up in 2008 and I still have not seen anything that fits the definition. Slanted eyes (thank you, Tippy) in a golden must not be very common.


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## Pointgold

When people learn, and understand, the standard and what is correct, that which is not is obvious.


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## Jo Ellen

I'm pretty sure I understand the standard of golden retriever eyes. I'm just saying I haven't seen an example of slanted eyes where I'm able to say, "oh, that's what they're talking about."


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## lgnutah

I think the eyes are more triangular or tilted in aspect.


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## FlyingQuizini

tippykayak said:


> There has GOT to be a better term than "oriental." The term is not accurate or descriptive, and it is rife with the potential to offend.
> 
> What's wrong with "slanted?"


I've been thinking the same thing and I kept hearing a former Asian boss of mine who would always say, "Oriental is a rug..."

Maybe I've grown up in an overly-PC world, but how is "slanted" any better?

"Almond" perhaps?


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## Merlins mom

Slanted like this? 












:--big_grin:
LOL!


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## Noey

Merlins Mom - those are "smiling eyes" much different.  I've been waiting for a picture as well. Not clear what they are talking about.


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## Tahnee GR

FlyingQuizini said:


> I've been thinking the same thing and I kept hearing a former Asian boss of mine who would always say, "Oriental is a rug..."
> 
> Maybe I've grown up in an overly-PC world, but how is "slanted" any better?
> 
> "Almond" perhaps?


Almond shaped eyes are actually correct eyes. There was a very well-known kennel back in the 70's or early 80's that I found to be very recognizable because dogs from that kennel did tend to have slanted, narrow eyes. It was not the ugliest thing I have ever seen but I did find it unattractive. When the standard was revised, I remember thinking that they must have revised it because of the dogs from this one kennel  The kennel is still active today, and has some very nice dogs (with nice almond eyes!)


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## marieb

Tahnee GR said:


> Almond shaped eyes are actually correct eyes. There was a very well-known kennel back in the 70's or early 80's that I found to be very recognizable because dogs from that kennel did tend to have slanted, narrow eyes. It was not the ugliest thing I have ever seen but I did find it unattractive. When the standard was revised, I remember thinking that they must have revised it because of the dogs from this one kennel  The kennel is still active today, and has some very nice dogs (with nice almond eyes!)


This has been very interesting because I thought Maddie's eyes were "wrong." But I guess they aren't! I wonder if that kennel is one that is prominent in Maddie's pedigree, would you mind pming me the name of the kennel I'm curious ... thanks!!


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## tippykayak

FlyingQuizini said:


> I've been thinking the same thing and I kept hearing a former Asian boss of mine who would always say, "Oriental is a rug..."
> 
> Maybe I've grown up in an overly-PC world, but how is "slanted" any better?
> 
> "Almond" perhaps?




Well, "oriental" has a long history of use as an inaccurate and therefore potentially offensive term for some human racial groups. "Slanted" has no such history. I just thought it might be the most descriptive term for the actual fault being discussed. It's also the word used in the standard itself. 

There's a common eye shape and position that I don't particularly like that could be described as "slanted," but I don't think it's out of standard. I find there are a lot of successful lines of show Goldens that don't look as warm, kindly, or eager as the ideal Golden in my head.


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## The Trio

Teddy and Morgan's Eyes are much different than Max's. I refer to them as almond eyes. When his eyes are open fully you don't notice it as much as when he is looking up at me. He always looks like he is studying something. I've never heard of reptilian eyes and when I think of descriptions of those I can't help but wonder if they mean the color. Most reptiles have a lighter colored eye almost a copper to yellow. I always say just love your babies for who they are.


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## Griffyn'sMom

ROFL Whatever do you mean?



Merlins mom said:


> Slanted like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :--big_grin:
> LOL!


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## FlyingQuizini

tippykayak said:


> Well, "oriental" has a long history of use as an inaccurate and therefore potentially offensive term for some human racial groups. "Slanted" has no such history. I just thought it might be the most descriptive term for the actual fault being discussed. It's also the word used in the standard itself.
> 
> There's a common eye shape and position that I don't particularly like that could be described as "slanted," but I don't think it's out of standard. I find there are a lot of successful lines of show Goldens that don't look as warm, kindly, or eager as the ideal Golden in my head.


With "slanted" I think of "*********" that is sometimes used in a derogatory fashion toward certain Asian/etc. groups. Or when someone pull their eyes outward to make them long and narrow (referring to an Asian population) and says, "*********". Maybe it's a west coast ethnic put down?

Oh well - not trying to hijack the thread... but thanks for addressing the "oriental" issue!


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## marieb

FlyingQuizini said:


> With "slanted" I think of "*********" that is sometimes used in a derogatory fashion toward certain Asian/etc. groups. Or when someone pull their eyes outward to make them long and narrow (referring to an Asian population) and says, "*********". Maybe it's a west coast ethnic put down?
> 
> Oh well - not trying to hijack the thread... but thanks for addressing the "oriental" issue!


I didn't say or mean "slanted" in a derogatory way when I was describing Maddie's eyes. I agree with you that almond might have been a better description but I didn't mean it in an offensive way (I think I was thinking the same thing as tippykayak). Done posting for awhile!


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## Loisiana

I don't see a problem with using slanted to describe eyes if that's what they are. I've never heard anyone complaining about "black" labs. Most dog people don't have a problem referring to bitches. Even if the terms can be used in a derogatory manner, they are still real words with that originally were and still can be used in nonderogatory ways too.


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## Griffyn'sMom

Oye! Enough with this PC nonsense. I'm a person with slanted/oriental/asian/almond eyes - I took no offense - OK? :


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## amy22

Thanks Griffyn'sMom I am tired of the PC stuff...ENOUGH ALREADY! We are talking about dogs here!


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## tippykayak

Griffyn'sMom said:


> Oye! Enough with this PC nonsense. I'm a person with slanted/oriental/asian/almond eyes - I took no offense - OK? :


You don't speak for everyone of asian descent, and "oriental" is neither an accurate nor a pleasant word to many, many people. There is absolutely no reason to use it in a discussion about anything but vases and carpets.

It is not nonsense to suggest that there may be more accurate and respectful terms.


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## mybuddy

My brother's girl has slanted eyes. Mom thinks she looks like Richard Gere.


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## mybuddy

Here is a pic of her....actually, she does look like Richard Gere.


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## Jo Ellen

Vic, you are so special :heartbeat And she does look like Richard Gere! LOL

So everyone, is this an example of what we're talking about?


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## mybuddy

Jo Ellen said:


> Vic, you are so special :heartbeat And she does look like Richard Gere! LOL
> 
> So everyone, is this an example of what we're talking about?


 
yer spashal 2!

Come to think of it, my brother's boy has slanted eyes too. Not as much as Keeper but not as round as Buddy's. I like all their eyes because dey r da wimbo too da sole! hoo karez if yoo habe rownd wimbos or da rektangal wimbos.


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## hotel4dogs

the word "slanted" is used in the golden retriever standard. It is not a politically incorrect term, it is merely a description of the eyes. Oye is right.


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## hotel4dogs

AND l'd like to point out the "round eyes" was a deragatory term used against people of caucasian descent, yet I don't hear anyone griping about THAT being in the standard or in our descriptions.
And Tito's eyes are a little too round. Ooops. I mean they are slightly more circular shaped than the standard calls for. Fortunately, they are not lying on a plane a few degrees off of the horizontal, which would be a more serious fault.


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## Merlins mom

Griffyn'sMom said:


> ROFL Whatever do you mean?


LOL!!!! Very cute pic!


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## tippykayak

hotel4dogs said:


> AND l'd like to point out the "round eyes" was a deragatory term used against people of caucasian descent, yet I don't hear anyone griping about THAT being in the standard or in our descriptions.
> And Tito's eyes are a little too round. Ooops. I mean they are slightly more circular shaped than the standard calls for. Fortunately, they are not lying on a plane a few degrees off of the horizontal, which would be a more serious fault.


But again, it's descriptive and only coincidentally similar to the epithet about non-Asians. "Oriental" is the only term I thought really needed to be phased out of the conversation.

I had no intention of touching off a PC witch hunt. Oriental is an inaccurate and racially charged term that has no place in a discussion about dogs because it offers no useful clarification. "Slanted," "round," and "almond" all refer to shapes and positions and are descriptive. If descriptive words become taboo, we won't be able to talk at all. What if my dog has a black color fault on his shoulder?


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## mybuddy

I dont like the term "Reptilian" it sounds creepy.

Buddy, Keeper and Bauer dont mind if we refer to them as oriental because they were born in Asia


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## Pointgold

Good grief. Now, canine terminology has to go "PC"? 

Gay tail. Prick ears. Bitch. Screw tail. 

Boy oh boy.

PG, not, PC.


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## slip_kid

all the best cowboys have chinese eyes
-pt


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## hotel4dogs

would it be politically incorrect for me to laugh at this post?




Pointgold said:


> Good grief. Now, canine terminology has to go "PC"?
> 
> Gay tail. Prick ears. Bitch. Screw tail.
> 
> Boy oh boy.
> 
> PG, not, PC.


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## Debles

Geeze Louise! I agree Laura!!!

How about this:


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## Pointgold

In a burka, even...


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## MillysMom

hotel4dogs said:


> would it be politically incorrect for me to laugh at this post?


I laughed at it!


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## my4goldens

hotel4dogs said:


> I refuse to post a photo of any dogs that have what I consider a "reptilian" look because of the potential to offend their owners.
> When you see one, you will know exactly what I am talking about!


Yep, once you see it you do know what it is!


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## my4goldens

tippykayak said:


> You don't speak for everyone of asian descent, and "oriental" is neither an accurate nor a pleasant word to many, many people. There is absolutely no reason to use it in a discussion about anything but vases and carpets.
> 
> It is not nonsense to suggest that there may be more accurate and respectful terms.


Thank you, Tippy, and my two grandchildren of Phillippino descent thank you too!


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## Griffyn'sMom

Oh that picture made me laugh out loud! Oh the humility - and you had to take a picture of it! Adorable!


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## Pointgold

Griffyn'sMom said:


> Oh that picture made me laugh out loud! Oh the humility - and you had to take a picture of it! Adorable!


 
I cannot take credit for the photo, or the dog. But, it's a doozie.
I'm just so amused that this has all become so "PC". Sheesh.


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## paula bedard

I never really noticed a difference in eye shapes, now I'll be looking for it everywhere...starting with Ike. Given his breeder, I wouldn't be surprised to learn his are considered 'crooked'. They're definitely not round and I can see pics where they look a little ******, but other pics they look just like the proper image Laura posted...Maybe they aren't really slanted after all, they're just squinting 'cause they need glasses.


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## Jerseygirl

Is this what you all mean? Not that it matters!


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## K9-Design

Well Jersey DOES kinda look like a swampy alligator! Not sure his eyes are particularly reptilian though! 

But seriously there was a dog at the WPB shows in March that absolutely struck me as fitting this description. She was from out of state, BTW, not a local dog. I am tempted to make a sketch of her headpiece as it was so bizarre and totally out of type.


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## Jerseygirl

Same dog...
We take Taco downtown like this to bewg for money and nommies....
I think he likes the first outfit the best!


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## Jerseygirl

K9-Design said:


> Well Jersey DOES kinda look like a swampy alligator! Not sure his eyes are particularly reptilian though! QUOTE]
> 
> O and Taco smelled like one too!:curtain: (I have a Taco and a Salsa. Jersey is a long story...)


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## HiTideGoldens

I'm trying to understand this, which is hard without a picture. Does the "reptilian" description speak to the placement of the eyes on the dog's head....i.e. more on the side of the head, like a reptile? And then the slanted eyes would be very small/squinty eyes? In my mind these are two different things so I'm trying to understand if these dogs are hit with two bad traits or if it's all one thing?


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## hotel4dogs

would you be able to do a sketch for us? That would be educational without being offensive.
I had a very slanted eyed golden here at the pet hotel recently, but as I said, I can't post a photo. What if the owner were to join, and see a photo of their dog like that!!!!!



K9-Design said:


> Well Jersey DOES kinda look like a swampy alligator! Not sure his eyes are particularly reptilian though!
> 
> But seriously there was a dog at the WPB shows in March that absolutely struck me as fitting this description. She was from out of state, BTW, not a local dog. I am tempted to make a sketch of her headpiece as it was so bizarre and totally out of type.


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## Debles

I think Selka's eyes actually may be of the too round variety!


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## K9-Design

Okay, this actually turned out better than I thought I could do it. 
Really it's not the eye shape so much as the whole headpiece and expression.


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## Pointgold

K9-Design said:


> Okay, this actually turned out better than I thought I could do it.
> Really it's not the eye shape so much as the whole headpiece and expression.


 
THis is simply unacceptable. Offensive! PROFILING! :curtain:


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## Jo Ellen

Pointgold said:


> THis is simply unacceptable. Offensive! PROFILING! :curtain:


I don't think we need to spend our time on this thread mocking other members.


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## K9-Design

That's it, I'm takin this to the Dog Draw-ers Union.


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## HiTideGoldens

Does it also include a face without the loose soft mouth that goldens have? I think someone mentioned taught skin, right?


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## Pointgold

K9-Design said:


> That's it, I'm takin this to the Dog Draw-ers Union.[/QUOTE
> 
> HAHAHA!
> 
> Seriously, was this dog actually entered in conformation?


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## K9-Design

Pointgold said:


> K9-Design said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's it, I'm takin this to the Dog Draw-ers Union.[/QUOTE
> 
> HAHAHA!
> 
> Seriously, was this dog actually entered in conformation?
> 
> 
> 
> YES -- and did well
Click to expand...


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## Pointgold

K9-Design said:


> Pointgold said:
> 
> 
> 
> YES -- and did well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gack... I've got to look that one up.
Click to expand...


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## Pointgold

Annie, your profile was dead on...


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## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Good grief. Now, canine terminology has to go "PC"?
> 
> Gay tail. Prick ears. Bitch. Screw tail.
> 
> Boy oh boy.
> 
> PG, not, PC.


Can you honestly not tell the difference between the use of the world "oriental" in this context and calling a female dog a bitch? Even "gay tail" hearkens back to the original meaning of the word "gay" and is in no way related to a derogatory comment about gay people.

Referring to eye position, shape, and orientation with descriptive words like "round," "slanted," "almond-shaped," etc. is fine. Comparing dogs to ethnic groups is not. How is that so challenging to understand?

You can mock me all you want by calling what I said "PC" and trying to create a running gag about profiling, but trying to be polite to people is reasonable, kind, and requires very little effort.

This is not "political correctness." It's basic human decency.


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## tippykayak

K9-Design said:


> Okay, this actually turned out better than I thought I could do it.
> Really it's not the eye shape so much as the whole headpiece and expression.












Maybe that was just a new designer hybrid, the Golden Saluki. I'm sure they'll be all the rage soon.

Nice sketch. How on earth did the dog do well with no stop at all? I'm a conformation neophyte, but even I can see that one a mile away.


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## Pointgold

tippykayak said:


> Can you honestly not tell the difference between the use of the world "oriental" in this context and calling a female dog a bitch? Even "gay tail" hearkens back to the original meaning of the word "gay" and is in no way related to a derogatory comment about gay people.
> 
> Referring to eye position, shape, and orientation with descriptive words like "round," "slanted," "almond-shaped," etc. is fine. Comparing dogs to ethnic groups is not. How is that so challenging to understand?
> 
> You can mock me all you want by calling what I said "PC" and trying to create a running gag about profiling, but trying to be polite to people is reasonable, kind, and requires very little effort.
> 
> This is not "political correctness." It's basic human decency.


Ease up, big guy. You know I'm "challenged" and exhibit bizarre behavior. Funny that while others feel the same way as far as "PC", it's me that is the indecent one and is called to the carpet (Oriental rug).
Gads.


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## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> Ease up, big guy. You know I'm "challenged" and exhibit bizarre behavior. Funny that while others feel the same way as far as "PC", it's me that is the indecent one and is called to the carpet (Oriental rug).
> Gads.


I have responded directly to two individuals in this thread who disagreed with me about the use of "oriental." The other poster did not mock me, but I did respond to more people than just you.


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## Pointgold

I'm really not playing with you on this. My intent is to try to once again have fun on this forum. If you don't like my posts, don't read them! :wavey:


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## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> I'm really not playing with you on this. My intent is to try to once again have fun on this forum. If you don't like my posts, don't read them.


Really? Given how many times I've asked you to leave me alone, and how you've asked _me_ to leave _you_ alone, you'd think you might want to avoid "having fun" with my posts or saying things like "ease up, big guy."

It's making fun of me and of a serious point I was trying to make about how the casual use of terms like "oriental," even unwittingly, can make people feel crappy. It's not nice.


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## Pointgold

Yes, really. Because, it's not about _you_! 







Off to have FUN now. :wavey:


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## mybuddy

I have a question. It is a serious question. I know it might come off as cocky but believe me, it isnt. And before I ask it, I dont take any real stance on either side of the PC fence. 

OK...so, "oriental" is derogatory but "Asian" isnt? It was my understanding that Asian takes the place of Oriental? So, saying that someone or something had Asian looking eyes, would that be P. incorrect? 

I live in Asia and am western. Asian people have quite often made reference to my appearance and compared it to rather unique things, and doesnt bother me at all.

But, I can certainly see how some people might take this sort of thing more seriously, as with almost everything, people are different and we have to try our hardest to be the best we can be, and to do whatever possible to get along with others. Sometimes that is a compromise in our opinions. Frankly, I would much rather just agree with someone and see them smile than disagree and have a headache for a day. That is just me...

So, Asian looking ok? Or not ok?


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## Rob's GRs

I am sorry but this thread is being closed as it is now way off topic from "disputes publically taking place in here"......


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